# JC should be TRADED



## holv03 (Jun 22, 2002)

As must as i like jamal crawford he is like one of my favorite players on the bulls. But i think the bulls should trade him. Crawford has been showing some negativity. First crawford said that he would be okay playing with jwill and the he dont mind playing the 2. Crawford in my option has a problem with playing the 2 in summer league play even though these games dont mean nothing he was playing good in the first 2 games where he played the point for the bulls. But the rest of the games he didnt do nothing when he started playing the 2. Also jc threatened to skip the Rocky Mountain Revue because he was being treated unfairly in regards to the Bulls giving JWill the PG spot and also skipped voluntary workouts to go home to Seattle what kind of hard worker is that. JC dosent like playing the 2 and he is already showing sings off that in the summer. Thats why i think we should trade JC for another good player. Jc is gonna be good but i think we should trade him. If we keep him their will be problems.


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by *holv03 *
> As must as i like jamal crawford he is like one of my favorite players on the bulls. But i think the bulls should trade him. Crawford has been showing some negativity. First crawford said that he would be okay playing with jwill and the he dont mind playing the 2. Crawford in my option has a problem with playing the 2 in summer league play even though these games dont mean nothing he was playing good in the first 2 games where he played the point for the bulls. But the rest of the games he didnt do nothing when he started playing the 2. Also jc threatened to skip the Rocky Mountain Revue because he was being treated unfairly in regards to the Bulls giving JWill the PG spot and also skipped voluntary workouts to go home to Seattle what kind of hard worker is that. JC dosent like playing the 2 and he is already showing sings off that in the summer. Thats why i think we should trade JC for another good player. Jc is gonna be good but i think we should trade him. If we keep him their will be problems.


You wanted us to draft Diop last year.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

i agree that he's not a good fit-but i think they should wait a year and drive up his value before trading him.


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## holv03 (Jun 22, 2002)

*Re: Re: JC should be TRADED*



> Originally posted by *Songcycle *
> 
> 
> You wanted us to draft Diop last year.


no i just said that diop would be good pick but i said that iwanted jason richardson i never said that i wanted diop. I have always wanted the bulls to draft jrich.


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: JC should be TRADED*



> Originally posted by *holv03 *
> 
> 
> no i just said that diop would be good pick but i said that iwanted jason richardson i never said that i wanted diop. I have always wanted the bulls to draft jrich.


http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?topic=3598&forum=10


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

You calling Diop a bust?

Name Min Ast TO Reb Blks Pts
Diop 28.4 0.8 2.4 8.0 4.4 6.8
Chandler 25.0 0.7 2.2 7.0 1.3 8.2

Summer League stats of course but he seems to be doing ok.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: JC should be TRADED*



> Originally posted by *Songcycle *
> 
> 
> You wanted us to draft Diop last year.




Diop was hurt much of last year. I don't see how he could be labeled a bust because he didn't produce as an injured 19 year old straight-out-of-highschool rookie any more than Crawford could be labeled a bust because HE is raw and missed time with injury.

Anyway, back to the main topic. I think it's instructive that the points Holv is making are NOT the criticism s one might point to that Crawford has in common with Diop.

That is, it's not being said that Crawford, like Diop, is "too raw" or "hurt too much". If that were the case, I'd agree that it's unfair to consider trading Crawford. 

That's not the case though. The issues with Crawford and the Bulls are completely different. First, it's totally legit to say that he may not fit in on the team in the long run. We didn't draft JWill to ride the piine and we didn't draft Crawford to ride the pine. So, why is it such a crime to consider a trade? Second, Crawford doesn't appear happy with the prospect of an all-out competition for the PG job with JWill. One or two of these "rumors" might be dismissed, but they're mounting daily. It's not just one or two. Where there's smoke, there's usually some fire. Anyway, given his potential unhappiness, I don't see why a trade *shouldn't* be considered.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> You calling Diop a bust?
> 
> Name Min Ast TO Reb Blks Pts
> ...


After watching Diop in the summer leagues, I was very impressed with his development since last season. His body was awesome and he seemed like he loved to fill that lane.

I think he can turn into a poor mans Dikembe Mutumbo and may be better if he develops some good post moves. I bet Z hates being guarded by him in practice already.


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*Some of U are talking crazy!! LOL*



> Originally posted by *BCH *
> You calling Diop a bust?
> 
> Name Min Ast TO Reb Blks Pts
> ...


WHY ARE PEOPLE PLACING SO MUCH IMPORTANCE ON THE RMR??? This is utterly OBSURD!!! We need to wait until regular season before we compare ANY stats, huh? All this garbage going around about JC, trade em....keep em...forget about em....geez louise....WAIT UNTIL THE SEASON STARTS AND THEN SEE HOW HE IS PLAYING??? Don't any of you think IF there was a slightest chance of a problem that Krause will be the first to make a deal before the season starts for Crawford??? man, lets settle down! Some of these posts are ridiculous and not very well thought over before posting...LOL GO BULLS ~~~:sigh:


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: JC should be TRADED*



> Originally posted by *Mikedc *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Amen.

Preach on Brother Mike.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

*Re: Some of U are talking crazy!! LOL*



> Originally posted by *BamaBull *
> 
> 
> WHY ARE PEOPLE PLACING SO MUCH IMPORTANCE ON THE RMR??? This is utterly OBSURD!!! We need to wait until regular season before we compare ANY stats, huh? All this garbage going around about JC, trade em....keep em...forget about em....geez louise....WAIT UNTIL THE SEASON STARTS AND THEN SEE HOW HE IS PLAYING??? Don't any of you think IF there was a slightest chance of a problem that Krause will be the first to make a deal before the season starts for Crawford??? man, lets settle down! Some of these posts are ridiculous and not very well thought over before posting...LOL GO BULLS ~~~:sigh:


It is not absurd. It is comparing two players who both seem to be doing just fine. They are both at the same point in their career and the criteria is the same summer league. It is just a comparison, not a statement on either's ability.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by *RetroDreams *
> 
> 
> After watching Diop in the summer leagues, I was very impressed with his development since last season. His body was awesome and he seemed like he loved to fill that lane.
> ...


I saw him play a couple of games against the Wizards last year and the guy can play. He did not seem awkward or tentative. I think your analysis is spot on.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: Some of U are talking crazy!! LOL*



> Originally posted by *BamaBull *
> 
> 
> WHY ARE PEOPLE PLACING SO MUCH IMPORTANCE ON THE RMR??? This is utterly OBSURD!!! We need to wait until regular season before we compare ANY stats, huh? All this garbage going around about JC, trade em....keep em...forget about em....geez louise....WAIT UNTIL THE SEASON STARTS AND THEN SEE HOW HE IS PLAYING??? Don't any of you think IF there was a slightest chance of a problem that Krause will be the first to make a deal before the season starts for Crawford??? man, lets settle down! Some of these posts are ridiculous and not very well thought over before posting...LOL GO BULLS ~~~:sigh:


Simple... it's all you can base an opinion on.

You can only form an educated opinion on what you've seen personally, or stats and production from their play.

Since most of these kids are "potential kids," have little or no college experience, and didn't play much in their rookie years, you go with what you know.

Which that "know" right now is how they performed at the RMR.


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> You calling Diop a bust?
> 
> Name Min Ast TO Reb Blks Pts
> ...


No I wasn't, I was calling holv03 for bad decisions for the Bulls and switching opinions. It is too early to call anybody who would be college sophmore a bust, but he did campaign for Diop on RealGM last year and I brought up a link to show reality.
BCH, you and I have agreed about how worthless the summer league games are, so why are you bringing up these stats?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Diop has the body to be a good NBA center in this league. If he stays healthy he just might be a force. I hope he plays up to his potential. That would make the league that much better.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Songcycle *
> 
> 
> No I wasn't, I was calling holv03 for bad decisions for the Bulls and switching opinions. It is too early to call anybody who would be college sophmore a bust, but he did campaign for Diop on RealGM last year and I brought up a link to show reality.
> BCH, you and I have agreed about how worthless the summer league games are, so why are you bringing up these stats?


You imply that holv3 made a bad decision in saying the Bulls should take Diop. I don't think Diop has done anything yet in his career to make anyone regret taking him, and I am implying that you can't judge holv3 yet on whether or not he wanted to take Diop. If he wanted the guy, as you indicate and show with your link, hold it against him in a few years if Diop turns out to be a bust.


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> 
> 
> You imply that holv3 made a bad decision in saying the Bulls should take Diop. I don't think Diop has done anything yet in his career to make anyone regret taking him, and I am implying that you can't judge holv3 yet on whether or not he wanted to take Diop. If he wanted the guy, as you indicate and show with your link, hold it against him in a few years if Diop turns out to be a bust.


No, he has made multiple claims between RealGM and here,none of which jive with his stated opinion at the time it mattered. He championed Diop on RealGM predraft last year and now he says he wanted Jason Richardson. I went to the RealGM archives to show his real on the record thoughts.

If you can't buy his on the record thoughts at the time they counted, then I question your take on reality. He came out stongly for Diop and Cisse. if he turns out right, lets give him credit If not lets react accordingly.But let's be real about our statements, You will find me on record last year for Curry and Battier not Chandler and I will live with that reality. That is what I said at the time and if you go to the RealGM archives before the draft, I am on record. Right or wrong, I am on record, so is Holv03, And his perpetual denial of his on record thoughts, do blemish his opinions.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I am not disagreeing with you. Your first reply though had nothing to do really with what he was saying. He didn't mention Diop.


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## Future (Jul 24, 2002)

What the hell does bashing each other have to do with basketball?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Stop this bashing. We all have faults. Some real some imagined. We all have opinions. Lets keep this mature and respectful. Bringing up faults of a poster either real or imagained has nothing to do with basketball!!!


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Mikedc *
> 
> *** bring your disagreements to PM****


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

What's to get a "last word" in on?

I said all I had to say about the idea of trading Crawford. You never weighed in, prefering instead to namecall and bring up DeSagana Diop.

I say, sooner or later, Crawford is out of here.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I think sooner rather than later for his sake.

I want him to get a second chance at a clean start. The guy is too young and still has a chance.

Unfortunately his salary is low and his value isn't as high as Krause would think it is, as has been indicated by various publications. To move him might be problematic in what Krause would take back, he doesn't have many peices outside of Fizer and ERob and FIzer has been on the block for the psat couple of years with no takers.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

I hate to distract anyone from this lovefest we have going but I think you're all missing what should be the real issue here...and that's the fact that Holv wanted to trade for Allan Houston!


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by *PC Load Letter *
> I hate to distract anyone from this lovefest we have going but I think you're all missing what should be the real issue here...and that's the fact that Holv wanted to trade for Allan Houston!


OMG! 

:no: 

Yeah, I could live without that trade. 

Realistically, what do people expect JC to fetch... either now or next year? What are people's realistic expectations of his value?


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Mikedc *
> 
> 
> OMG!
> ...


Right now, I'd say we could get a mid #1 pick, depending on who we're trading with.


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by *PC Load Letter *
> 
> 
> Right now, I'd say we could get a mid #1 pick, depending on who we're trading with.


We turned down the #11 for Crawford this year and for good reason. He does have value and he is good.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Songcycle *
> 
> 
> We turned down the #11 for Crawford this year and for good reason. He does have value and he is good.


What I should have said was we can get a Mid #1 unless we trade him to the Wiz.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I think Jordan wants him more than anyone else, so I would place his value at a little less than the 11, maybe a little lower after the RMR. This still has not been confirmed as a deal that was offered by anyone in Washington, but I tend to think it has merit.

Mid to late first rounder is my guess at this point.


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> I think Jordan wants him more than anyone else, so I would place his value at a little less than the 11, maybe a little lower after the RMR. This still has not been confirmed as a deal that was offered by anyone in Washington, but I tend to think it has merit.
> 
> Mid to late first rounder is my guess at this point.


You are probably right, which is why it is isn't worth trading him. A mid level first rounder is just another question mark with less experience. A late first rounder is probably a never will be. Might as well keep him and see what happens.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> I think Jordan wants him more than anyone else, so I would place his value at a little less than the 11, maybe a little lower after the RMR. This still has not been confirmed as a deal that was offered by anyone in Washington, but I tend to think it has merit.
> 
> Mid to late first rounder is my guess at this point.


i thought you dont use the summer league as any indicator of what will happen during the regular season? so why has jamal's stock dropped since the draft? 

btw... jamal didnt have a bad RMR


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I don't think it is necessarily an indicator of their performance for the season but he didn't do anything to raise himself above JWill, and this being his 3rd year the hype around him is beginning to wear off. There is more risk to a veteran like Crawford to play Summer League than there is for a rookie getting his first taste of the NBA.


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

Crawford is not an untouchable, but I am not so sure he is on the block either. I would be more than happy to enter this year with Crawford and Fizer on the roster. At least one and maybe both will show major improvement this year.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

I'm a fairly down the middle type of guy... people don't hear me say too many ridiculous things. (Please don't look up my threads to prove me wrong.. hehe)

I would like to now go out on a limb to say that Allan Houston has all the tools and skills to be among the elite SG's in the league, and be worth every penny of his contract.

He's got a GREAT basketball body, and one of the sweetest j stroke in the NBA. He has range. He's a physical player that could be a rebounding guard, if he ever tried.

He'll never be anything more than a matador perimeter defender, but he's tall enough to put a hand in the face of a jumper. And he's strong enough that guards will have to get by him... not many will want to post him up. Basically, he'll get burned a lot and he won't rack up steals but he's not unintelligent on D or a huge liability either.

He's actually UNDERRATED now that he's being paid way too much. But he's still going to be in his prime for two-three more years, and if he ever decides to step up big for the Knicks, then he can be the redemption story of next season.

Not that he has to redeem himself of a career-high 20.4 ppg scoring average, shooting just under 40% from behind the arc and logging career-high minutes. 

This post isn't saying that we should have traded Brad Miller for Allan Houston. I'm glad we have Jalen... he's more of an overall professional, overall talent, and MUCH more of a team leader. But Allan Houston is a good player, and with motivation could be a fairly GREAT player (better than Ray Allen). 

In response to the current topic, Crawford is a very gifted improving talent that just isn't fitting in right now. The ideal trade scenario involving Crawford would look like this:

1. Craw shows great flashes of being a big time player this season, but shows unhappiness with the team.

2. Around November, another highly touted player also shows flashes of intensity but doesn't fit with the team, and he gets thrown onto the trade block (I'd like to see DerMarr Johnson, Rodney White or even Gerald Wallace).

3. The strings are pulled and the trade occurs.

If Craw gets put in a package, I have a feeling it won't be getting the full value of him. I'd like to see him go one for one with some draft picks thrown in.


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

How about Crawford for Diop


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Showtyme *
> I'm a fairly down the middle type of guy... people don't hear me say too many ridiculous things. (Please don't look up my threads to prove me wrong.. hehe)
> 
> I would like to now go out on a limb to say that Allan Houston has all the tools and skills to be among the elite SG's in the league, and be worth every penny of his contract.
> ...


Actually if DerMarr comes along sufficiently in the first half of the season this could turn out to be an equitable trade 

Dermarr is more a genuine swing player in the 2 and 3 spots and I have long said he is the closest thing Clyde the Glide that I have seen 

Atlanta seem to be chasing a big point and they could leave Jason Terry in an Iverson type role at the 2 

Although Jamal , Terry , and Kukoc at the 1,2 an 3 makes me shudder when I think about the defense

I guess Theo worries too with the amount of overtime he'll be clocking at the back 

Reef at the 4 is hardly a magic defender either

Moving Craw would enable Travis Best to be resigned and Roger getting some reserve minutes too with DerMarr fighting with Trent for back up minutes at the swing spot .

Harpring signed outright .. that's a real tight and balanced perimeter


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but 

www.nba.com/suns/interactive/jacobsen_transcript_020724.html

Casey Jacobsen thinks that Jamal Crawford was the toughest guy he had to guard in the summer games.

Jacobsen's opinion might not count as much among some, but he D'ed up against DeShawn Stevenson and Dajuan Wagner too. 

It doesn't mean much, but it surely means a little bit of something. Crawford has a lot of props from around the league. Whoever said that Jay Williams is quicker than Crawford would have to answer to Jason Terry, Michael Jordan, and a few others (including Casey Jacobsen, now..hehe).


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

DeMarr Johnson looks like just what we need. Supposedly, he put on about 20lbs of muscle in the past few months, which would put him up to about 225lbs. Between that and his excellent defense, he might be just what we need.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Mikedc *
> DeMarr Johnson looks like just what we need. Supposedly, he put on about 20lbs of muscle in the past few months, which would put him up to about 225lbs. Between that and his excellent defense, he might be just what we need.


Well, not 20lbs of muscle.

Unless he is on a cycle of steroids, it is impossible to gain more then 6-10lbs of lean muscle a year. This is a well-known fact in the bodybuilder scene.

So, if he is on roids, he could have done it, but it still wouldn't be all muscle. During a bulking cycle, you eat everything in sight and crazy. Following your bulking cycle, you then run a cutting cycle to drop the bad weight you gained.

I'm an amateur bodybuilder... I've been lifting for almost 8 years now. If anyone questions what I wrote here, PM me and I'll give you a good bodybuilding board that you can research this subject.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

*Dermarr*



> Originally posted by *Mikedc *
> DeMarr Johnson looks like just what we need. Supposedly, he put on about 20lbs of muscle in the past few months, which would put him up to about 225lbs. Between that and his excellent defense, he might be just what we need.


I have to admit that I have not seen too much of the Hawks since Dermarr came into the league. I saw him a little bit at Cincy. I don't recall him being known for his excellent defense? Say what you want about the guy, but anyone who plays for Huggins must be able to D up. When I watched a game the Bulls played against the Hawks, I was very impressed with his perimeter shooting. Can someone tell us more about his defense?


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: Beware new technique*



> Originally posted by *johnston797 *
> 
> 
> Hey Retro,
> ...


Thanks for the heads up... I read that the other day but ignored it. It is typical banter from him and I see that nothing was done about it.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*More on DeMarr*

I'm basing the DeMarr analysis off of statements made about him by former Hawks assistant Eric Mussellman (the new Golden State HC):

_Coach Musselman vehemently disagrees, “I don’t know what people expect. He works hard, shoots well, and plays terrific defense. We wouldn’t have had the success we have had in Boston if it wasn’t for DJ. We put him on every team’s best scorer, and he shut them down. He used a lot of his energy on the defensive end because we asked him to, because we knew we would run the offense through Dion (Glover).” _


http://hawks.realgm.com/showarticle.php?artid=197


I can't seem to find the link that talked about him adding muscle. I don't think I was imagining it, but oh well. Very intersting points though about Roids. On an related, but off-topic note, didn't Yao Ming weigh in at like 220lbs for the 2000 Olympics... and now he's at 295?


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I think something that is not being taken into account about some of these young guys adding muscle is the fact that they are still growing. I believe Retro's statement of 6lbs of lean muscle applies to fully developed men, and not to people still growing. I could be wrong, but why else would people be taking HGH?


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> I think something that is not being taken into account about some of these young guys adding muscle is the fact that they are still growing. I believe Retro's statement of 6lbs of lean muscle applies to fully developed men, and not to people still growing. I could be wrong, but why else would people be taking HGH?


Well, yes and no.

6lbs is about the average for the entire spectrum without the use of helping substances outside of food, vitamins, creatine and glutamine. Genetics also play a big factor.

When you are younger, you can get greater development because your natural testosterone levels are higher. You can get more and less, but to get more, you'd have to be seriously pushing some big weight. This isn't happening, because basketball lifting programs often go for muscle tone and endurance rather then mass and strength.

When I was a freshman in college, beginning spring practices and offseason lifting I went from 220lbs to 285lbs in just over 4 months, but I'm still trying to get off the dead weight they put on me. And even though my natural development helped me a lot, we were provided with other helping substances.

But he said he read 20lbs in just a couple months. Without steroids or other growth substances, he'd have to be a genetic superman. It is very unlikely it is muscle, but rather a combination of fat and muscle because I'm sure DerMarr is a typical kid and eats at McDs and Pizza Hut just like our kids do.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by *RetroDreams *
> 
> But he said he read 20lbs in just a couple months. Without steroids or other growth substances, he'd have to be a genetic superman. It is very unlikely it is muscle, but rather a combination of fat and muscle because I'm sure DerMarr is a typical kid and eats at McDs and Pizza Hut just like our kids do.



Just to follow up, I think the place I read it was over on the Atlanta Hawks board, so it's not exactly a published report. The guy there was speculating that he gained 15 lbs.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Mikedc *
> 
> Just to follow up, I think the place I read it was over on the Atlanta Hawks board, so it's not exactly a published report. The guy there was speculating that he gained 15 lbs.


I ain't mad at cha... I just want people to be aware that is isn't going to be strictly muscle.

Just trying to help educate people here, since I'm pretty knowledgable with personal fitness and weightlifting.

Other then that, I have always liked DerMarr, just wished he'd go to the hole more in college when he was at Cincy. Then again, you didn't need to with K-Mart in the middle.


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## Crawscrew (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> I don't think it is necessarily an indicator of their performance for the season but he didn't do anything to raise himself above JWill, and this being his 3rd year the hype around him is beginning to wear off. There is more risk to a veteran like Crawford to play Summer League than there is for a rookie getting his first taste of the NBA.



this is more like his second year in the league. In his rookie year floyd wouldnt let him do anything and he only got minutes because bryce drew got hurt with like 30 games to play. and last year he got hurt, and only played like 20 games. Overall in his first two years he only played 84 games, and hes never been given a chance to show what he can do over a long period of time, he will definately break out this year, and become a value asset to this team. BOOK IT!!!!


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I completely disagree with the argument that Crawford didn't play his 1st season. He played in 61 games and started 8. he averaged 17.2 minutes a game, meaning he had over 1000 minutes of playing time. The thought he didn't play much is a fallacy and a myth. It kills me when I see people claim last year was really his rookie year.

Last year he didn't play much I grant you but he did play in 1/4th of the season and he had an entire NBA offseason's wort of work as well.k


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> I completely disagree with the argument that Crawford didn't play his 1st season. He played in 61 games and started 8. he averaged 17.2 minutes a game, meaning he had over 1000 minutes of playing time. The thought he didn't play much is a fallacy and a myth. It kills me when I see people claim last year was really his rookie year.
> 
> Last year he didn't play much I grant you but he did play in 1/4th of the season and he had an entire NBA offseason's wort of work as well.k


It kills me... you may as well give up.

No matter what gets brought up, there is always going to be his posse telling us something completely different and how we're wrong. Rose colored glasses... where do I get me a pair?


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## Crawscrew (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> I completely disagree with the argument that Crawford didn't play his 1st season. He played in 61 games and started 8. he averaged 17.2 minutes a game, meaning he had over 1000 minutes of playing time. The thought he didn't play much is a fallacy and a myth. It kills me when I see people claim last year was really his rookie year.
> 
> Last year he didn't play much I grant you but he did play in 1/4th of the season and he had an entire NBA offseason's wort of work as well.k


he may have played in 61 games in his rookie season, but he didnt get any minutes until the end of the year, when the bulls let go of el-amin, and drew got hurt. he may have averaged 17 min a game, but thats only cause he played like 30 min a game, near the end of the year. so he was at like 10 min a game b4 that. the fact is he has yet to be given a chance to play a high number of minutes for a full season. It kills me when people think JC played 17 min a game for the whole season. Do the math, final 20 games around 30 min a game, other 44, 11 min a game


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> I completely disagree with the argument that Crawford didn't play his 1st season. He played in 61 games and started 8. he averaged 17.2 minutes a game, meaning he had over 1000 minutes of playing time. The thought he didn't play much is a fallacy and a myth. It kills me when I see people claim last year was really his rookie year.
> 
> Last year he didn't play much I grant you but he did play in 1/4th of the season and he had an entire NBA offseason's wort of work as well.k


Thats the most ludicrous thing I ever heard.

I try to practice safe posting, but I had to respond to this. Jamal NEVER got any meaningful game or development time his rookie season. You posted a stat inflated by end of season garbage time.


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## Crawscrew (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by *gettinbranded *
> 
> 
> Thats the most ludicrous thing I ever heard.
> ...


exactly what i was trying to say


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by *gettinbranded *
> 
> 
> Thats the most ludicrous thing I ever heard.
> ...


Well, it could also be argued that every minute of the Bulls season was garbage time if you look at how we played.


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## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

I believe Crawscrew's point was that this is basically Jamal's 2nd season. That's a valid point. In their NBA careers:

JC- 84 games, 14 starts, 1531 minutes

TC- 71 games, 31 starts, 1389 minutes

EC- 72 games, 31 starts, 1150 minutes

So you could easily say that Jamal has basically one full season of NBA experience, a "season" where he only played about 18 minutes a game. 

Jamal played 17 more college games than Eddy and Tyson- if you think that Eddy and Tyson aren't close to being finished products (and I think we all fit that category), why would you expect Jamal to be close to a finished product?


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Kobe's first season - 1100 minutes. I guess his second year was his rookie season as well.

McGrady's first season 1179

Peja's first season 1025.

Ben Wallace's second season 1124 (197 his first season).

Crawford saw plenty of time on the floor.


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: Some of U are talking crazy!! LOL*



> Originally posted by *RetroDreams *
> 
> 
> Simple... it's all you can base an opinion on.
> ...


You go with what you know? performed??? hmmmm...the RMR is no where near the "structured" game plan of a regular NBA game. It shows NOTHING other than how unorganized players who have not played together as a team can be. Even the Bulls, who had four of their starters from last year on the roster DID not have them playing together at the same time. How could you or WHY WOULD YOU, compare players' performances in the RMR games??? What good would that do? What, when their performance during the regular season is drastically improved or worsened, do we say, "wow, he did not play that way in the RMR games!!! LOL To use the RMR stats or games as a basis for how these players compare to each other is phooey! LOL (thats not too strong of a word, is it? LOL) I just look at the RMR games as a time of getting acquainted with others in the NBA and of your team...PERIOD. I get nothing out of it as far as what they did or didn't, could or couldn't do. I guess my problem is I do not understand how anyone else can? I know I am not the most "educated" basketball poster, but I just do not get how we can psycho-analyze these games as meaning ANYTHING. I hope I did not offend anyone. GO BULLS~~~

:grinning:


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Some of U are talking crazy!! LOL*



> Originally posted by *BamaBull *
> 
> 
> You go with what you know? performed??? hmmmm...the RMR is no where near the "structured" game plan of a regular NBA game. It shows NOTHING other than how unorganized players who have not played together as a team can be. Even the Bulls, who had four of their starters from last year on the roster DID not have them playing together at the same time. How could you or WHY WOULD YOU, compare players' performances in the RMR games??? What good would that do? What, when their performance during the regular season is drastically improved or worsened, do we say, "wow, he did not play that way in the RMR games!!! LOL To use the RMR stats or games as a basis for how these players compare to each other is phooey! LOL (thats not too strong of a word, is it? LOL) I just look at the RMR games as a time of getting acquainted with others in the NBA and of your team...PERIOD. I get nothing out of it as far as what they did or didn't, could or couldn't do. I guess my problem is I do not understand how anyone else can? I know I am not the most "educated" basketball poster, but I just do not get how we can psycho-analyze these games as meaning ANYTHING. I hope I did not offend anyone. GO BULLS~~~
> ...


No one is using RMR to compare to the NBA regular season. They are using it to compare how people did in the RMR.


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## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> *Kobe's first season - 1100 minutes. I guess his second year was his rookie season as well.*
> 
> McGrady's first season 1179
> ...


When, exactly, did ANYONE suggest or imply that JCs second season was his rookie season? I'll tell you when, NEVER.

What WAS said is that through TWO seasons, JC has little more than one season's worth of experience- WHICH IS TRUE. Give it up.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BullsNews *
> 
> 
> When, exactly, did ANYONE suggest or imply that JCs second season was his rookie season? I'll tell you when, NEVER.
> ...


:yes:


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by *gettinbranded *
> 
> 
> Thats the most ludicrous thing I ever heard.
> ...


BullsNews,

This is what I am referring to and this is what I am responding to. His playing time his rookie season, is commensurate with what you saw out of many other players. I do not understand what makes the end of the season for that Bulls team any different than the first 30 games. However Crawford played in a significant number of games with a significant number of minutes. The context is the same for everyone. How many minutes played their rookie season. I don't feel as if it necessarily matters ihow those minutes were obtained.

I already said last year was a wash due to injury. I have already said the guy needs a chance to prove what he can do. But Floyd did not inhibit him his rookie year, and Crawford had equal minutes to many other players.


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## Crawscrew (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> Kobe's first season - 1100 minutes. I guess his second year was his rookie season as well.
> 
> McGrady's first season 1179
> ...


 
the point I was trying to make was that this year was really Craws second season not his third, and that this would be his first chance to get consistent playing time over a full season, i never said that last year was his rookie year, i just implied that he never got a chance to show his skills over an extended period of time. You said he saw plenty of playing time, but those four players only averaged like 15 min a game, Craw may have gotten playing time, but look at the stats of those players, they weren't exactly eyepopping, and Craw is not as good as those players offensively, except for Wallace and maybe Peja...Anyway my original point was that this is Craws second year, I never said this was his rookie year.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Crawscrew *
> 
> 
> 
> the point I was trying to make was that this year was really Craws second season not his third, and that this would be his first chance to get consistent playing time over a full season, i never said that last year was his rookie year, i just implied that he never got a chance to show his skills over an extended period of time. You said he saw plenty of playing time, but those four players only averaged like 15 min a game, Craw may have gotten playing time, but look at the stats of those players, they weren't exactly eyepopping, and Craw is not as good as those players offensively, except for Wallace and maybe Peja...Anyway my original point was that this is Craws second year, I never said this was his rookie year.


I am not going to argue the point, you are correct here. However, you said Floyd did not let him do anything his first year. That lead to my original statement. I agreed that his second year was a wash in that statement as well. If that is the case then there is no discussion. Crawford had a wasted second year. If however does ignore the fact that he has had an entire additional NBA offseason to work on his game as well, which he did with MJ. I also never said you said this was his rookie year, you may have gotten that impression by what others have written in response to me.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> Kobe's first season - 1100 minutes. I guess his second year was his rookie season as well.
> 
> McGrady's first season 1179
> ...


STOP POSTING STATISTICS OUT OF CONTEXT!


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> 
> 
> BullsNews,
> ...



I RESPONDED to your assertation. How could I be the genesis of your argument?


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## Crawscrew (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> 
> 
> I am not going to argue the point, you are correct here. However, you said Floyd did not let him do anything his first year. That lead to my original statement. I agreed that his second year was a wash in that statement as well. If that is the case then there is no discussion. Crawford had a wasted second year. If however does ignore the fact that he has had an entire additional NBA offseason to work on his game as well, which he did with MJ. I also never said you said this was his rookie year, you may have gotten that impression by what others have written in response to me.



What I ment by Floyd not giving Crawford any playing time was that other events had to happen for Crawford to get playing time. He was playing behind El-Amin and Bryce Drew. It wasn't until El-Amin got released and Drew got hurt that Floyd put Craw into the lineup. My point there is that Floyd had no other alternative, other than to put Craw in the lineup, if Drew had not gotten hurt, and El-Amin not released, Craw wouldn't have gotten off the bench that much. That was the point I was trying to make...As for the whole rookie season thing, I'm dropping that cause I'm confused right now on who said what.


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