# Career Assist To Turnover Ratio



## heatfan82

I calulated the career assist-turnover ratio for some of the top PGs:

Nick Van Exel 3.21
Gary Payton 2.94
Andre Miller 2.88
Jason Kidd 2.75
Steve Nash 2.70
Mike Bibby 2.62
Baron Davis 2.54
Marbury 2.50
Jason Williams 2.50
Sam Cassell 2.37
Billups 2.25
Tony Paker 2.19
Jason Terry 2.17
Steve Francis 1.72
Gilbert Arenas 1.77

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/players?league=nba&position=pg

Thoughts?


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## shazha

who would have thought eh NVE would be that carefull with the ball


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## TheRifleman

I would like to know the ratio for a player like Stockton and Magic & Thomas, too.


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## jdg

I know that Muggsy Bogues is the all time leader in A-to-T ratio! And he is very proud of that factor. His is something like 4.5:1 i think... I dunno. it's good though!


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## Stinger

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> who would have thought eh NVE would be that carefull with the ball


I think it's probably because he's a shoot first guard.


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## jdg

OK, I looked up some guys for ya, Rifleman.

John Stockton: 3.72:1
Magic Johnson: 2.89:1
Isiah Thomas: 2.46:1
Muggsy Bogues: 4.69:1
Mark Jackson: 3.29:1


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## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>jdg</b>!
> OK, I looked up some guys for ya, Rifleman.
> 
> John Stockton: 3.72:1
> Magic Johnson: 2.89:1
> Isiah Thomas: 2.46:1
> Muggsy Bogues: 4.69:1
> Mark Jackson: 3.29:1


i woulda never thought that Magic would have a ratio that low. Same with Thomas. I thought they would both be around 3-3.5


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## ToddMacCulloch11

Bogues is awesome.


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## RunToFreeForFly

Bogues broke the rule that 5'3 player cant play nba.


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## Pistolballer

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> i woulda never thought that Magic would have a ratio that low. Same with Thomas. I thought they would both be around 3-3.5


i guess with Magic since they were always running he had a lot of turnovers... plus he was very tall for a PG, so its probably a little easier to steal the ball of him


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## JuniorNoboa

Assist to TO ratio can be a very overrated stat for a point guard. 

If you have too few turnovers, it means you are way to conservative. You still might get some assists on jumpers, but generally your offense will not get enough easy looks to be above average.


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## jdg

I think another reason Magic's stat doesn't look so good would be his teammates fault. I'm not old enough to remember much of the Magic era, but i've heard that when he was younger, most of his teammates just couldn't handle or weren't expecting his passes. Like LeBron has shown to us all, that leads to turnovers.


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> who would have thought eh NVE would be that carefull with the ball


lol, misleading stats because teh guy never try to pass. If he could get a shot off and hit the rim, no turnover!


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## Jermyzy

what about terrell brandon? I think he had a pretty high assist to turnover ratio


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## heatfan82

Part of that might be true but guys like Francis, Marbury, and Terry who all take more shots then NVE(13.9 for his career) would have a higher ratio. Also the only three people on the list that avg. more assist then NVE is Marbury, Kidd, and Payton, and that's with Nick coming off the bench for a year and a half as a SG.


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## Crossword

What's Alvin Williams'? I think he's got a pretty good one, he's always top-5 in the league at it.


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>jdg</b>!
> OK, I looked up some guys for ya, Rifleman.
> 
> John Stockton: 3.72:1
> Magic Johnson: 2.89:1
> Isiah Thomas: 2.46:1
> Muggsy Bogues: 4.69:1
> Mark Jackson: 3.29:1


Thanks! Very interesting, considering how many games Stockton played in! He took good care of the rock.:yes:


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## Jonathan Watters

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> Assist to TO ratio can be a very overrated stat for a point guard.
> 
> If you have too few turnovers, it means you are way to conservative. You still might get some assists on jumpers, but generally your offense will not get enough easy looks to be above average.


You're right on, Junior. 

I used to hear all the time about how Terrell Brandon was a better PG than Jason Kidd (from TWolves fans, of course), because he had a much better ast/to ratio. We used to hear the same thing about Andre Miller, who might be the most overrated player in the game. 

Brandon was a VERY conservative playmaker. He was nice for the offense, but I like Cassell better already.


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## tpb2

right on with Andre Miller. I watched him in Cleveland and always thought he was overrated. I'd take J-Will over him in a second. It's amazing of Williams could improve that much. I really admire that. He's never gets noticed in Memphis. His passes are great.


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## mysterio

Nick Van Exel 3.21
Gary Payton 2.94
Andre Miller 2.88
Jason Kidd 2.75
Steve Nash 2.70
Mike Bibby 2.62
Baron Davis 2.54
Marbury 2.50
Jason Williams 2.50
Sam Cassell 2.37
Billups 2.25
Tony Paker 2.19
Jason Terry 2.17
Steve Francis 1.72
Gilbert Arenas 1.77
Magic Johnson: 2.89
Isiah Thomas: 2.46
Mark Jackson: 3.29

Mean A/TO of these 18 players = 2.55

*Muggsy Bogues: 4.69?!*

I did the math and... Do you realize that he is over 3 standard deviations above the mean?! That number is unreal. I knew he held the record but never recognized it was that good. Muggsy, I bow down to you!
:worship:


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## kflo

unfortunately, mugsy's weaknesses made him no more than a mediocre pg.


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## jdg

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> unfortunately, mugsy's weaknesses made him no more than a mediocre pg.


yes, but for his height, I think he was the best he could be. I don't think there will ever be a better player under 5'9. Yeah, Spud could dunk and had some good years, and Earl Boykins is having a couple good seasons, but I still think Muggsy blows them both away.


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## Minstrel

I wouldn't even necessarily say Bogues' high assist-to-turnover ratio was a real strength. It's very comparable to a quarterback's touchdown-to-interception ratio.

If you throw one touchdown for the season and never loft another pass again, you don't run the risk of throwing a pick, but you're doing your team no good and yet you finish with the highest possible ratio.

Overly conservative play, due to lack of brilliance, is not a real positive..


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## Pistolballer

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> I wouldn't even necessarily say Bogues' high assist-to-turnover ratio was a real strength. It's very comparable to a quarterback's touchdown-to-interception ratio.
> 
> If you throw one touchdown for the season and never loft another pass again, you don't run the risk of throwing a pick, but you're doing your team no good and yet you finish with the highest possible ratio.
> 
> Overly conservative play, due to lack of brilliance, is not a real positive..


but Muggsy wasnt overly conservative, he just never had the ball stolen from him.. and was a pass-first PG, with Zo, LJ, a great Kendall Gill, and never-miss Dell Curry to pass the ball to


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## mysterio

> Originally posted by <b>Pistolballer</b>!
> 
> 
> but Muggsy wasnt overly conservative, he just never had the ball stolen from him.. and was a pass-first PG, with Zo, LJ, a great Kendall Gill, and never-miss Dell Curry to pass the ball to


Precisely. Bogues was a great distrubutor, not overly conservative.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Pistolballer</b>!
> 
> 
> but Muggsy wasnt overly conservative, he just never had the ball stolen from him.. and was a pass-first PG, with Zo, LJ, a great Kendall Gill, and never-miss Dell Curry to pass the ball to


What I mean is not that he didn't pass much, but that he didn't commit any turnovers trying to make great passes that created easy shots for teammates. He was more the type to dump the ball into the right player or swing the ball. Which is much better than having an unintelligent point guard, but worse than a point guard who takes risks on setting up his teammates, assuming the point guard has the passing skill to succeed on most of the chances he takes.

Would you rather have Brett Favre or Steve Beuerlein (if you're a football fan)? Favre took risks and generated a lot of turnovers, but also generated a huge amount of offense. Beuerline was a careful, conservative quarterback who rarely threw an interception but didn't really worry good defenses.

His good touchdown-to-interception ratio wouldn't, to me, suggest a strength, but rather point out that he wasn't good enough to take risks and be successful in that style.


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