# Update on Calderon



## BenDavis503 (Apr 11, 2007)

I am sure some of you heard... but apparently TJ Ford absolutely refuses to come off the bench in Toronto and the Raps apparently want to keep him. We just might be able to pry him away for the right trade. I heard all this on courtside last night. Outlaw and 13th pick for Jose. I think I would do that. It would be really hard to turn down.

But then we would have to trade Jack and or Blake too. I would try to package the two together for a better SF or a draft pick and try to get Donte Green or Tyler Smith around the 18-20 range. More then likely wouldn't happen but it's fun to dream.

Thoughts on the whole TJ Ford refusing to come off the bench and how that can benefit us.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

BenDavis503 said:


> I am sure some of you heard... but apparently TJ Ford absolutely refuses to come off the bench in Toronto and the Raps apparently want to keep him. We just might be able to pry him away for the right trade. I heard all this on courtside last night. Outlaw and 13th pick for Jose. I think I would do that. It would be really hard to turn down.
> 
> But then we would have to trade Jack and or Blake too. I would try to package the two together for a better SF or a draft pick and try to get Donte Green or Tyler Smith around the 18-20 range. More then likely wouldn't happen but it's fun to dream.
> 
> Thoughts on the whole TJ Ford refusing to come off the bench and how that can benefit us.



I think Toronto will look to trade Ford. Calderon is the better player, and he has no injury that could be career ending with the right hit.


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## BenDavis503 (Apr 11, 2007)

Good point. I cannot wait to see what happens!!! I wouldn't mind trying to get Ford either. But yeah that sweet spot he has to end his career is scary.

Anyhow, I do think that it would be hard for Toronto to turn down Outlaw and 13th pick. They could get a better center like Hibbert, or they could get a good rookie PG to backup Ford AND have Outlaw play SF\PF for them.

Ford\13th?
Moon\Parker
Outlaw\Kapono
Bosh\Outlaw
Bargnani\13th?

Not a bad lineup!


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## Blaze (Jan 25, 2003)

I'm sure Toronto would love to trade Ford and keep Calderon, but the fact of the matter is that Ford still has 3 years left on his contract and just a little over $8 mill a year. I just don't believe there are teams out there who want to acquire Ford for the same reasons that Toronto would love to move him - past injuries and concerns about his size. I'm just thinking that if the Blazers offer Calderon their entire mid level, would Toronto just go ahead and match it, with Ford not going anywhere for the new several years and being 2-3 years younger than Calderon.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

BenDavis503 said:


> But then we would have to trade Jack and or Blake too.


Why would we have to trade Blake? We'd need somebody to back-up Calderon, and I think Blake would be the perfect back-up PG for this team should they acquire a better starting PG like Calderon. He's relatively cheap, has one year left on his deal (team option at ~$4.75 million), knows Nate's system, is liked by his teammates, loves Portland and WANTS to be here. And, unlike TJ Ford, I doubt if Steve Blake would throw a hissy fit if he had to come off the bench.

Jack is gone anyway if Rudy comes. Might as well include him in the package to Toronto. They'll need a back-up PG if they move Calderon.

Can we get Calderon? Sure we can, but we might have to "overpay" to get him. He's playing GREAT in the play-offs, is a much better fit for Toronto's style than Ford, makes less money (currently) and is much more of a team player. After Ford's selfish comments, and Calderon volunteering to give up his starting role for the good of the team, Calderon is much more of a fan favorite. With his team-first attitude, he's probably better liked by his teammates, coach and GM, as well. Brian Colangelo has said a couple times that one of them will have to go. I'm sure he'd rather keep Calderon, but the problem will be finding a trading partner that would take Ford, his contract, his me-first attitude and his injury history. 

No problem finding a trading partner for Calderon. Pritchard would love to get Calderon, and if there's another team interested, there could be a bidding war. The Blazers have PLENTY to offer Toronto in return. I know everybody has their favorites, but we have so much young talent on this roster we'll need to consolidate soon anyway. With Oden and hopefully Rudy coming there will be fewer minutes to go around for guys like Outlaw, Martell, Frye, Jack, etc. Yeah, whoever you trade may turn into a great player, but you have to give up something to get something, and better to do it sooner than later - if you can get a piece we need, like an upgrade at starting PG. Don't wait for guys to start grumbling about PT and poisoning the team chemistry. 

I think eventually, at least one, and likely two of Outlaw, Martell, Frye and James Jones will have to go. They all made significant contributions this year, but if it was up to me, I think I'd keep Frye and Martell. In my mind, Rudy can replace both Outlaw and James Jones. He'll give us instant offense and clutch shooting off the bench (Outlaw), and will give us a great 3-point shooter to spread the opponent's defense (Jones). As a back-up SG, he also replaces Jack. 

I think Outlaw's trade value will never be higher. So, buy low, sell high. Move him now before his role and trade value decrease. He had a break-out season, is signed for several more years at what is now a below market contract, and is still young. However, I think Martell has a higher upside. He may, or may not, develop into a scorer comparable to Outlaw, but I think he has a better chance to become a more complete player. Sure, I'd love to see Martell become a 20 ppg player, but with Roy, Aldridge, Oden and Rudy, whoever plays mall forward for this team will likely be our 5th highest scorer. So, if Martell can give us 12 - 14 ppg, grab a few rebounds and play some good defense, I think he could be our SF of the future. 

Unless Jones opts out, I'd keep him until his contract expires. We will need a back-up small forward if one of Outlaw/Martell is moved, and Jones is cheap (if he doesn't opt out). If he does opt out, it's not a big deal. With Rudy coming (hopefully), I see our back-up small forward's role being reduced. While it won't be our starting line-up, I do see Nate going with a 3-guard unit of Rudy, Roy and PG (Blake or Calderon) when the match-ups allow. In that scenario, Rudy gives us the 3-point shooting Jones provided this season. So, as much as I like James, I don't see him being a critical part of this team's future. 

I'd also like to keep Frye because I think he's the PERFECT back-up power forward behind Aldridge. After drafting Oden, I believe that was the role Frye was expected to fill when we got him from the Knicks in the Zach trade. He's a long, lanky PF with a good mid-range jumper - like Aldridge. At the end of the season, he also showed he can be a very solid rebounder. I think having him come off the bench backing up Aldridge is a perfect fit, and if LaMarcus ever gets !njured, you could plug Frye right into the starting line-up without changing your offensive sets/plays. He can also slide over to back-up center if Joel gets injured.

BNM


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

if I'm Toronto I wouldn't take the 13th pick and Outlaw for Calderon. Calderon is the third most promising PG in the league (after Williams and Paul). and they'd be willing to trade him for what will likely amount to a couple of role players? yuck. 

if I were Toronto, I'd have visions of an East Coast version of the Jazz, with Calderon/Bosh as my Williams/Boozer cornerstones. a better option for them is to talk to a team like Dallas about packaging Ford and some future draft pick for a shorter contract. 

if Toronto management has any sense, it'll take trading Rudy Fernandez for us to have any chance at Calderon. which is at least interesting to consider, even though I'm among the many who think Fernandez is going to be a stud. 

imagine we had Calderon right now. would we trade him for the rights to Fernandez? I really doubt it. the main reason this idea doesn't seem to be seriously considered by anyone is because of all the expectations on Rudy as a Blazer. 

but Portland already has a stud shooting guard in Roy. Toronto has already invested in a point guard in Ford. Fernandez and Calderon are both young and loaded with upside, and each supply something the other team actually needs. 

I doubt such a deal happens, mostly because it's risky and if it backfires Pritchard gets crucified. it's the kind of risk that has little upside for our GM's career. but in pure basketball terms, it's a deal that I think should get some serious consideration.


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## chairman (Jul 2, 2006)

Blaze said:


> I'm sure Toronto would love to trade Ford and keep Calderon, but the fact of the matter is that Ford still has 3 years left on his contract and just a little over $8 mill a year. I just don't believe there are teams out there who want to acquire Ford for the same reasons that Toronto would love to move him - past injuries and concerns about his size. I'm just thinking that if the Blazers offer Calderon their entire mid level, would Toronto just go ahead and match it, with Ford not going anywhere for the new several years and being 2-3 years younger than Calderon.



Many people feel that Calderon would be interested in Portland because of his Spainish teammates. I see it differently. I think Calderon would be less likely to want to sign a free agent contract because it would hurt Sergio chances of getting minutes. Rudy could also cut into his own minutes.


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

God I wish the NBA would get rid of guarenteed contacts so they could just cut someone like Ford. The attitude many players have comes from the fact they are untouchable.


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## BenDavis503 (Apr 11, 2007)

mook said:


> if I'm Toronto I wouldn't take the 13th pick and Outlaw for Calderon. Calderon is the third most promising PG in the league (after Williams and Paul). *and they'd be willing to trade him for what will likely amount to a couple of role players? yuck.*


But it is known that Toronto...

1. Needs to get rid of one or the other PG's
2. Ford refuses to play off the bench
3. Ford is WAY harder to trade and they wont get much in return if the do
4. Would get a LOT more for Jose then Ford

Even though Jose is better then Ford, he is easier to move and Toronto can get a lot more for him. I think KP will work something out and get him. That is a risk he is willing to make.

And how can you say that Outlaw will "likely amount to a role player" after this season? Also, the 13th pick, there are PLENTY of good backup PGs to choose from to back Ford.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

Paxil said:


> God I wish the NBA would get rid of guarenteed contacts so they could just cut someone like Ford. The attitude many players have comes from the fact they are untouchable.


That's ridiculous. They would never cut a player like Ford. Attitude may be a downside but he is a good enough point guard that you just don't "cut him". Even with the good game Calderon had last night, few folks mention Ford had an excellent game too, which he does often. It's just one of those situations like when Damon was here. Damon pouted when he didn't start, so he started, he just didn't finish the game. The PG that was trusted (Anthony or Pippen) finished it. It's the same thing in Toronto.


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## RoyToy (May 25, 2007)

No way I do that trade.


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## crowTrobot (Jun 24, 2005)

when does calderon officially become a RFA? is he tradeable before then? can you do sign/trades with RFAs?

if he does end up being available it would likely end up in a bidding war, so i don't see how we'd get him for anything less than rudy + 2-3 other players.


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

*IF* Toronto were to trade Calderon, I would expect they would require a lot more in return than is suggested in this thread. Also, Calderon would likely be a sign & trade for around 8-10 mil, so our package would have to fit that. I think they NEED a player like Przybilla and would demand him in the trade along with Outlaw and a backup PG. Something like this.

Calderon and Garbajosa
for
Outlaw, Przybilla, Blake (or Jack), and the 13th

That would be hard for the Blazers to swallow, but I think it would be a fair trade. Less than that and I think there are plenty of other teams that would outbid us.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

I still don't see why folks are proposing trades. He is a restricted free agent. Offer him more money then they do, and he is yours. If they match, at least you ate up a big part of their salary cap for years.


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## BenDavis503 (Apr 11, 2007)

crowTrobot said:


> when does calderon officially become a RFA? is he tradeable before then? can you do sign/trades with RFAs?
> 
> if he does end up being available it would likely end up in a bidding war, so i don't see how we'd get him for anything less than rudy + 2-3 other players.


Why would we even trade Rudy for Jose? Why would you even think that?



GOD said:


> *IF* Toronto were to trade Calderon, I would expect they would require a lot more in return than is suggested in this thread. Also, Calderon would likely be a sign & trade for around 8-10 mil, so our package would have to fit that. I think they NEED a player like Przybilla and would demand him in the trade along with Outlaw and a backup PG. Something like this.
> 
> *Calderon and Garbajosa
> for
> ...


I would _almost_ love to do that trade. But I would maybe want to ask for a future 1st round or this years first round pick from Toronto. Maybe give them our 2nd rounders too?


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## Mr. Chuck Taylor (Aug 2, 2004)

RoyToy said:


> No way I do that trade.


Why not? I'm not implying that you feel this way, RoyToy, but I think a lot of Blazer fans are way too big of homers. Lets try and look at it from an outsider's perspective...

It's hard to compare point guards to small forwards, but Calderon's PER was #26 in the league, while Outlaw's was #101. Calderon even got a little talk about making the all star game, here are a couple articles on it:

http://www.thestar.com/article/293025
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/nba/jay/2008/01/calderon_could_squeak_onto_all.html
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/297347


I don't remember Travis getting any all-star talk. Calderon is one of the best (and few) young point guards out there. Also, he is a true point guard who distributes, easily leading the league in assist to turnover ratio this past year:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbaassists&sort=astto&avg=pg&seasontype=2 

Yes, Calderon is a couple years older, and I really do love Travis. But I think Calderon is clearly the better player, and, the icing on the cake is that he would fill the Blazer's biggest positional need.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

crowTrobot said:


> if he does end up being available it would likely end up in a bidding war, so i don't see how we'd get him for anything less than rudy + 2-3 other players.


As much as Portland fans overvalue their own players...you're going ever farther the other direction. 

The absolute BEST player in Europe PLUS up to three other players? (Outlaw, Jack and the #13 pick seems to be what people are thinking...) Are you kidding me? That's what I can a lopsided deal. Fernandez alone is too much.

Given Outlaw's production combined with a VERY reasonable contract and the potential of the #13 pick (plus Jack to make salaries match) we'd be giving up plenty. There's no way Fernandez is included in that deal.


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## Draco (Jun 28, 2003)

Calderon is the 2nd most valuable player on that Toronto roster behind Bosh. I just don't think Outlaw will be enough to get a deal done, he's what our maybe 5th most valuable player? If KP can get that type of trade done then it's just a no-brainer you go ahead and do it.

The real question is do you do a Calderon trade for primarily Rudy, I'd definitely consider it.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

mook said:


> Calderon is the third most promising PG in the league (after Williams and Paul).


As much as I like Calderon and would love the Blazers to get him, he's a HUGE step down from Williams and Paul. And, he's four years older than Paul and three years older than Williams.

Calderon kind of burst on the scene this season when he became a starter in place of the injured TJ Ford, but he is NOT some young, up-and-coming PG. He's only 5 months younger than Steve Blake. He is already in his prime (which is good for next year's team) and playing at the top of his game. His production will likely go up if he becomes a full time starter, but he's probably already reached his full potential (or close to it). Nobody seems to mention him, but Tony Parker is the reigning finals MVP, has multiple rings and is a year younger than Calderon. Other young PGs like Rajon Rondo, Devin Harris and possibly Mike Conley are just as promising s Calderon - or more so, due to their youth and defense.

That said, I'd take any of Calderon, Rondo, Harris or Conley we can get our hands on. We've seen what Calderon can do in this series against the Magic. Rondo is playing excellent ball (GREAT defense) for a championship contender, Dallas was actually better with Harris than they are with Kidd (go figure). The Blazers would instantly be better with any of those three. Conley is VERY young and has tons of potential. He wouldn't provide immediate help like the other three (Blake would probably start for another year), but he'd peak at the same time as our young core. The question is, who's available and what would it cost to get them?


BNM


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## Ukrainefan (Aug 1, 2003)

I think it's possible that the players that Toronto will want are Rudy and Sergio. They seem to be going in the Euro direction and may even bring in a Euro coach soon. They may value Sergio more than Portland (Nate) does. I think Rudy would be a lot more likely to come over if he was going to a team that would have Sergio as their first backup point guard. Also they need a SG a lot more than Portland does (now is Anthony Parker) so this would also entice Rudy. If KP gets any inclination at all from Rudy that he may not come over (to Portland), then this might be the trade to make.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Mr. Chuck Taylor said:


> Calderon is one of the best (and few) young point guards out there.


Calderon is NOT young. He's five months younger than Steve Blake and will be 27 before training camp starts. That's not old, but there are lots of other younger PGs who are as good or better, or have the potential to be better. Some people here are mentioning Jose Calderon in the same breath with Chris Paul and Deron Williams. That's crazy talk I tell ya. He's nowhere near as good, or as young, as those guys.

I'd LOVE to get Calderon, but calling him "one of the best (and few) young point guards out there" is seriously overvaluing him. He may be the best PG that's potentially AVAILABLE, but he's far from the best.

BNM


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

I honestly don't undertand why folks are stuck on the age thing. Most NBA players play on more than one NBA team. If you get a few good years out of a player on your team, be happy with it. The days of guys sticking with one team, are rare, at best.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

hasoos said:


> I still don't see why folks are proposing trades. He is a restricted free agent. Offer him more money then they do, and he is yours. If they match, at least you ate up a big part of their salary cap for years.


There's this little thing called the salary cap. The Blazers are over it. So, the most they can offer Calderon is the MLE, which will be below market value for Calderon. Toronto would match that in a heartbeat.

BNM


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## hoojacks (Aug 12, 2004)

Sergio or Jack + Frye + 13


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> There's this little thing called the salary cap. The Blazers are over it. So, the most they can offer Calderon is the MLE, which will be below market value for Calderon. Toronto would match that in a heartbeat.
> 
> BNM


1. The salary cap hasn't been announced for this coming year.
2. The Blazers still haven't decide who and who they are not keeping, so the Blazers salary cap is not set. 
3. Miles just left, cash free'd up.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

hasoos said:


> I honestly don't undertand why folks are stuck on the age thing. Most NBA players play on more than one NBA team. If you get a few good years out of a player on your team, be happy with it. The days of guys sticking with one team, are rare, at best.


I'm not stuck on the age thing, I'm just pointing that calling Calderon "one of the best young PGs out there" is inaccurate.

BNM


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

hoojacks said:


> Sergio or Jack + Frye + 13


That probably won't get you Calderon. 

Jack sucks, and Frye would be three deep in a rotation of Bosh and Bargnani (although I think Frye is at least as good as Bargs)

You would probably need to deal with the pain and trade Outlaw. 

I like Travis, but he is a dumb basketball player. Losing him wouldn't be as bad as people think it would


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> I'm not stuck on the age thing, I'm just pointing that calling Calderon "one of the best young PGs out there" is inaccurate.
> 
> BNM


How can it be innacurate when they just have a different opinion then you do? Perception is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

hasoos said:


> 1. The salary cap hasn't been announced for this coming year.
> 2. The Blazers still haven't decide who and who they are not keeping, so the Blazers salary cap is not set.
> 3. Miles just left, cash free'd up.


The Blazers have absolutely ZERO chance of getting under the cap for 2008-09. The cap will likely be a little less than $60 million. Removing Miles' $9 million dollar contract, leaves the Blazer with 12 guaranteed contracts totaling $63 million - and that doesn't count James Jones ($3+ million player option) and Steve Blake ($4.75 million team option). So, even of James Jones opts out and the Blazers let both him and Steve Blake walk, they are > $3 million over the cap. They'd need to be about $7 - 8 million under the cap to make a run at Calderon. With 12 guaranteed contracts on the books, there is absolutely no way to get there. The MLE will be the most they can offer. Which means their ONLY hope of getting Calderon is with a sign-and-trade. That's why people are tossing around trade ideas.

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

hasoos said:


> How can it be innacurate when they just have a different opinion then you do? Perception is in the eye of the beholder.


Fine, compared to me, Jose Calderon is young.

Compared to the average NBA player, he is not.

Compared to Chris Paul, he's four years OLDER. 

Compared to Deron Williams he's three years OLDER.

Compared to Tony Parker, he's almost a year OLDER. 

That's not perception, that's fact.

BNM


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Just say no to trading Travis.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

MAS RipCity said:


> Just say no to trading Travis.


Why? His trade value is probably the highest it will ever be. He's a one dimensional jumpshooter, who brings little else that other guys on the roster don't do better. Sure he's a nice offensive spark off the bench, but Rudy will provide that - and more. If Rudy comes over, Outlaw loses his role as number one scoring option off the bench, his scoring goes down and so does his trade value. Now's the time to sell high.

BNM


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## SabasRevenge! (Apr 20, 2008)

Toronto's PG rotation looks pretty nice right now but neither of those guys wants to be a backup for the foreseeable future. Others have already said it, but the Raptors won't get anywhere near fair value for Ford for obvious reasons. As much as they'd love to keep both of those guys, they may have to choose between getting a combo of nice players/picks for Calderon or taking substantially less for Ford. I'm assuming it'll probably be a S+T if Jose is traded and his extension will mean he's a BYC player? If Garbajosa's career is indeed in serious jeopardy, perhaps we could assume his contract from Toronto as an added incentive.


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## SabasRevenge! (Apr 20, 2008)

Boob-No-More said:


> Why? His trade value is probably the highest it will ever be. He's a one dimensional jumpshooter, who brings little else that other guys on the roster don't do better. Sure he's a nice offensive spark off the bench, but Rudy will provide that. If Rudy comes over, Outlaw loses his role as number one scoring option off the bench, his scoring goes down and so does his trade value. Now's the time to sell high.
> 
> BNM


There's always the chance Outlaw could continue his remarkable growth, but I pretty much agree with this. In particular I think his future potential on defense is very limited. If it took TO as the major piece to land Calderon I'd be all over it. Filling in defensive gaps around Ford, Outlaw, and Bosh could produce a very exciting, consistently winning team.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Calderon will not be the PG traded. Yes they will get less for Ford, but Jose is a point guard for the future.


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## BenDavis503 (Apr 11, 2007)

Draco said:


> Calderon is the 2nd most valuable player on that Toronto roster behind Bosh. I just don't think Outlaw will be enough to get a deal done, he's what our maybe 5th most valuable player? If KP can get that type of trade done then it's just a no-brainer you go ahead and do it.
> *
> The real question is do you do a Calderon trade for primarily Rudy, I'd definitely consider it.*


What are you crazy? Why are people saying we should trade Rudy for Jose? Was Jose EVER the MVP in a tournament in Spain? Rudy has won like every single MVP you can win. And he is younger. Why do that? Get the gun, and shoot yourself in the foot.



hasoos said:


> How can it be innacurate when they just have a different opinion then you do? Perception is in the eye of the beholder.


You are inaccurate. BNM is facts. He proved you wrong too... so I wont need to.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

R-Star said:


> Calderon will not be the PG traded. Yes they will get less for Ford, but Jose is a point guard for the future.


Who would possibly give them ANYTHING for Ford. He's overpaid, has a me-first attitude and a VERY risky injury history. Any one of those is a red flag. Two makes 90% of GMs not named Isiah walk away, all three make him untradeable - but not in a good way. With Isiah deservedly collecting unemployment, I don't think there is a GM in the league dumb enough to trade for TJ Ford. He's not a bad player, but all the other circumstances make him one of the least desirable trading assets in the entire league.

BNM


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> Who would possibly give them ANYTHING for Ford. He's overpaid, has a me-first attitude and a VERY risky injury history. Any one of those is a red flag. Two makes 90% of GMs not named Isiah walk away, all three make him untradeable - but not in a good way. With Isiah deservedly collecting unemployment, I don't think there is a GM in the league dumb enough to trade for TJ Ford. He's not a bad player, but all the other circumstances make him one of the least desirable trading assets in the entire league.
> 
> BNM


I think there are a lot of GM's that would take a flyer on Ford, but what Toronto received as compensation would be minimal at best. Most likely something like Ford for a similar sized contract of a useless player and perhaps a second round pick.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

GOD said:


> I think there are a lot of GM's that would take a flyer on Ford, but what Toronto received as compensation would be minimal at best. Most likely something like Ford for a similar sized contract of a useless player and perhaps a second round pick.


Do you think Brian Colangelo would GIVE Ford away for a USELESS player when he could keep Ford and get multiple USEFUL pieces for Calderon?

BNM


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> Do you think Brian Colangelo would GIVE Ford away for a USELESS player when he could keep Ford and get multiple USEFUL pieces for Calderon?
> 
> BNM


No, but I am just saying that Ford is not untradable a la miles. But I would not be surprised if some GM out there offered something like an expiring contract for Ford. If that happened, I think there is a chance that Clangelo would take it and keep Calderon. 

I really depends on whats offered. But it is a lot to ask a team to trade its second best player. Especially when the player is still fairly young, healthy and has a good attitude.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Boob-No-More said:


> Who would possibly give them ANYTHING for Ford. He's overpaid, has a me-first attitude and a VERY risky injury history. Any one of those is a red flag. Two makes 90% of GMs not named Isiah walk away, all three make him untradeable - but not in a good way. With Isiah deservedly collecting unemployment, I don't think there is a GM in the league dumb enough to trade for TJ Ford. He's not a bad player, but all the other circumstances make him one of the least desirable trading assets in the entire league.
> 
> BNM



If they _have_ to trade one of their PG's, they arent going to trade Calderon just because they'll get a better deal for him. Right now, Jose is one of those guys you just dont trade. Hes already playing amazing, is young, and there are no viable options out there for Toronto to get a better player out of trading him.

If Ford has to be traded, they will be able to find something for him, even if it doesnt net much in return.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

R-Star said:


> If they _have_ to trade one of their PG's, they arent going to trade Calderon just because they'll get a better deal for him. Right now, Jose is one of those guys you just dont trade. Hes already playing amazing, is young, and there are no viable options out there for Toronto to get a better player out of trading him.


Calderon is about to become a UFA. What if some team under the cap offers him a huge, above market, contract. If you're Brian Colangelo, do you overpay to match the offer and end up with a ton of money tied up in two PGs over the next three years, or do you match the offer and start shopping around for the best offer. Calderon is a very good player, but he's not YOUNG (stop saying that - is Steve Blake young?) and he's not a superstar. If they start shopping a re-signed, and overpaid Calderon around the league, they just might get more than equal value in return. Toronto is currently very weak at the 2 and 3 positions. They have a lot of bodies, that can do various things well, but they don't really legitimate NBA caliber starters at either position. They might not get it from Portland, but if they shopped Calderon around they could probably get a huge upgrade at one, or maybe even both, of those positions - and they'd still have TJ Ford as their incumbent (and insistent) starting PG. Given the multiple PG situation in Toronto and Calderon's UFA status, I think one of Ford or Calderon will be gone. I'd guess there's about a 75% chance it will be Ford (in a give away) or a 25% chance it will be Calderon (in a deal that nets them multiple usable parts, possibly two new starters).

BNM


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## Jayps15 (Jul 21, 2007)

Boob-No-More said:


> *Calderon is about to become a UFA*. What if some team under the cap offers him a huge, above market, contract. If you're Brian Colangelo, do you overpay to match the offer and end up with a ton of money tied up in two PGs over the next three years, or do you match the offer and start shopping around for the best offer. Calderon is a very good player, but he's not YOUNG (stop saying that - is Steve Blake young?) and he's not a superstar. If they start shopping a re-signed, and overpaid Calderon around the league, they just might get more than equal value in return. Toronto is currently very weak at the 2 and 3 positions. They have a lot of bodies, that can do various things well, but they don't really legitimate NBA caliber starters at either position. They might not get it from Portland, but if they shopped Calderon around they could probably get a huge upgrade at one, or maybe even both, of those positions - and they'd still have TJ Ford as their incumbent (and insistent) starting PG. Given the multiple PG situation in Toronto and Calderon's UFA status, I think one of Ford or Calderon will be gone. I'd guess there's about a 75% chance it will be Ford (in a give away) or a 25% chance it will be Calderon (in a deal that nets them multiple usable parts, possibly two new starters).
> 
> BNM


Calderon is going to be a Restricted FA.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

Although I'd prefer Calderon, I'd still be interested in acquiring TJ Ford depending on the price. I think people forget that TJ Ford has always been a very good point guard.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Jayps15 said:


> Calderon is going to be a Restricted FA.


Yes, you are correct. That's what I meant, but typed the wrong acronym. My point is the same. What if someone offers Calderon a huge deal, will the Raps match and keep him, or keep Ford and look to explore sign-and-trade options for Calderon?

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Sambonius said:


> Although I'd prefer Calderon, I'd still be interested in acquiring TJ Ford depending on the price. I think people forget that TJ Ford has always been a very good point guard.


He averaged 12 and 6 this year. It's better than Steve Blake, but not franchise changing. And, in five seasons in the league, he's missed one entire year, never been healthy for a whole season and only played more than 55 games twice.

BNM


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## Balian (Apr 11, 2008)

Boob-No-More said:


> He averaged 12 and 6 this year. It's better than Steve Blake, but not franchise changing. And, in five seasons in the league, he's missed one entire year, never been healthy for a whole season and only played more than 55 games twice.
> 
> BNM


Not to mention, the concept of team is foreign to him. Ford refuses to come off the beach. We don't need an injured prone egomaniac on this team, thank you.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

i think you guys are underrating steve blake. 

imagine blake as the backup for a "better than blake" starter. people would be talking about him as one of the best backup pgs in the league. i'm not saying build around him but he brings a pure pointguard's game to the table and has that rare ability to make the guys around him better. that's a great thing to have off the bench and extends the impact of guys 6-15.


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## SodaPopinski (Aug 10, 2004)

Balian said:


> Ford refuses to come off the beach.


Who knew Toronto was so tropical?

-Pop


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

Calderon is going to be extremley hard to get(Im talking Rudy+Outlaw+#13 hard).
Ford is just a retirment in waiting. 

One option isnt realaistic. The other isnt good.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Like I have been saying, If they decide to trade one, it will be Ford, not Calderon. If it comes to the point where they _have_ to trade, they'd rather trade Ford for a bag of chips than lose Calderon. The pg and c possitions are well known as the hardest possitions to fill these days. If you have the best young point guard behind Paul and Williams, you dont trade him. You posted his stats and skoffed "Its good, but not that good", he was coming off the bench a lot of the time.

And as far as the young argument, find me guys outside of Paul and Williams who broke into the top 5 pg's before they were 26.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> He averaged 12 and 6 this year. It's better than Steve Blake, but not franchise changing. And, in five seasons in the league, he's missed one entire year, never been healthy for a whole season and only played more than 55 games twice.
> 
> BNM


The injury history is certainly a concern but don't over simplify TJ's stats to Steve's without going in depth regarding their statistics. 

TJ plays 6 minutes less than Blake while averaging 3.5 points more, an assist more, and shooting 7% better from the field. Not to mention, TJ is a pretty pesky defender and blazes past defenders with great speed. I think it is reasonable to suggest that if TJ got 30 minutes a night, he would be putting up better stats, as past seasons have indicated. He's pretty darn good at creating for others, despite only averaging 6 assists this season. I like Steve Blake and I think he is a terrific back up for this franchise, with that said, I think TJ is a legitimate starting point guard. 

Also, I think the statements saying TJ has an ego or isn't a team first guy are over statements that seem to me just piling on. Nothing TJ Ford has done on the court has indicated a player who is a me first type of guy. I think TJ is a legitimate option this off season, as I do with Mo Williams.


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## crowTrobot (Jun 24, 2005)

BenDavis503 said:


> Why would we even trade Rudy for Jose? Why would you even think that?


i don't think anybody here including me has suggested that we SHOULD trade rudy. i definitely would not. we are just pointing out that toronto is likely to be asking for that type of value if they were to consider letting calderon go. outlaw + 13 isn't gonna cut it.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

imo, tj's a much better pointguard than mo williams is. mo's had a better ensemble than tj did in millwaukee; tj took them to the playoffs, mo to the lottery. tj's actually taken every team he's played with to the playoffs. a fair argument can be made that tj's actually a better player than jose and has more upside. i'm confident that given the reigns to a team, minutes, and a legit coach, tj is an allstar-level point. tj would be the 3rd best young pg in the west. it would be awesome what the blazers could do with tj/roy/outlaw/aldridge/oden. is that the most athletic 1-5 in the league?


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## crowTrobot (Jun 24, 2005)

the numbers indicate calderon is a significantly better offensive PG than ford. much better assist/TO, better shooting from field, line, and much better from 3P. also the team performs much better with calderon than ford (from 82games.com). to be blunt toronto would have to be brain dead to let him go just so they can keep ford.


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

spuriousjones said:


> i think you guys are underrating steve blake.
> 
> imagine blake as the backup for a "better than blake" starter. people would be talking about him as one of the best backup pgs in the league. i'm not saying build around him but he brings a pure pointguard's game to the table and has that rare ability to make the guys around him better. that's a great thing to have off the bench and extends the impact of guys 6-15.


Kind of like in Milwaukee? Bench players don't get time unless they make an impact in their time and inject life. Because they are bench players coaches have no problem pulling them if they aren't 'feeling it' and so aggressive players who aren't stars often times end up on the bench. Blake is a passive player who is decent at distributing, and a team like Denver would love to have someone like that as a starter w/ their role because he doesn't et in the way. here's the thing though, players like Blake don't do well when off the bench!


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

I like Ford a lot if it was not for two things. 1) Injury Prone. 2) I don't think he would match up well with Roy. TJ has good vision as a PG and gets the ball to the right place, but he is a ball in hands type of PG. He dribbles a lot and takes control of the team. Roy needs to have the ball in his hands a good portion of the time to be effective. Roy is not a spot up shooter, he is a playmaker. I just don't see TJ being a good match with Roy. Calderon on the other hand passes quickly and promotes ball sharing, something that would work well with Roy.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

crowTrobot said:


> the numbers indicate calderon is a significantly better offensive PG than ford. much better assist/TO, better shooting from field, line, and much better from 3P. also the team performs much better with calderon than ford (from 82games.com). to be blunt toronto would have to be brain dead to let him go just so they can keep ford.


I don't know if you've heard of the statistic that 69% of Calderon's assists come from jump shots, but I think that's staggering. I prefer Calderon, but I think the assists numbers are being translated a bit awkwardly here. Ford is a better creator than Calderon, but again, Roy should probably have the ball in his hands most of the time.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

GOD said:


> I like Ford a lot if it was not for two things. 1) Injury Prone. 2) I don't think he would match up well with Roy. TJ has good vision as a PG and gets the ball to the right place, but he is a ball in hands type of PG. He dribbles a lot and takes control of the team. Roy needs to have the ball in his hands a good portion of the time to be effective. Roy is not a spot up shooter, he is a playmaker. I just don't see TJ being a good match with Roy. Calderon on the other hand passes quickly and promotes ball sharing, something that would work well with Roy.


I kind of disagree that he's a bad fit with Roy. I don't think having another excellent penetrator other than Roy would be a bad idea as I think Ford is one of the best at that actually and if he penetrates, players will have to decide if they want to help on TJ and leave Oden or Aldridge open for the dunk. While Ford isn't the threat that Jose is at the 3 point line, TJ is certainly a threat with his almost automatic mid range game.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

R-Star said:


> And as far as the young argument, find me guys outside of Paul and Williams who broke into the top 5 pg's before they were 26.


Historically, Steve Nash is the only great PG I can think of who was such a late bloomer. Guys like Magic, Stockton, Kidd, Payton, KJ, etc. were all top five PGs by the time they were 25. Stockton was probably the latest bloomer of that bunch, but at 25 he was leading the league at 13.8 AG and well on his way to being a first ballot hall of famer. Kidd was ROY at 21 and an all-star at 22. Magic, well.... was Magic. Payton an all-star at 25. KJ an all-star at 23.

Seriously, other than Nash, can you think of a great PG that hadn't become great by the time he was 26? I bet if you looked at the top 50 PGs in the history of the NBA, or even the top 100, you'd probably only find a couple that weren't all-stars by the time they were 25.

That's some pretty steep competition, but I'm just trying to show that contrary to the generally accepted myth, great PGs, the ones that are true difference makes, are usually great fairly early in their careers. Paul and Williams are NOT the exceptions, Steve Nash is.

BNM


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## crowTrobot (Jun 24, 2005)

Sambonius said:


> I don't know if you've heard of the statistic that 69% of Calderon's assists come from jump shots, but I think that's staggering.


without comparison i'm not sure that's really so staggering. a lot of that has to be team makeup and the type of offense the team runs. for example i'd guess the number is similar for deron williams.


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## Mr. Chuck Taylor (Aug 2, 2004)

Boob-No-More said:


> Calderon is NOT young. He's five months younger than Steve Blake and will be 27 before training camp starts. That's not old, but there are lots of other younger PGs who are as good or better, or have the potential to be better. Some people here are mentioning Jose Calderon in the same breath with Chris Paul and Deron Williams. That's crazy talk I tell ya. He's nowhere near as good, or as young, as those guys.
> 
> I'd LOVE to get Calderon, but calling him "one of the best (and few) young point guards out there" is seriously overvaluing him. He may be the best PG that's potentially AVAILABLE, but he's far from the best.
> 
> BNM


I don't see how calling a 26 year old "young" is overvaluing him. Go ahead and call him "middle aged", "old", or whatever you want...it doesn't change the fact that he's a 26 year old point guard on the rise. I knew how old he was when I made my post, and even mentioned he was older than Outlaw. I still value him more than Travis.

Also, most 26 year olds have spent 5 or 6 years in the league, adjusting to the NBA. Calderon has only played 3 years in the league, so he could even improve more than the average 26 year old. 

Most importantly, he is young enough that he would fit in with our guys and be very productive when we make our big run.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Calderon has been playing professional ball since he was 17, so he is a lot older in terms of professional experience.

That said, I don't think Calderon will get that much better at least on the offensive end. He's already a pretty good shooter and we all know about his passing. The only part of his game that needs improving is on the defensive end and I think he just needs a good interior defense behind him to cover his lack of athleticism.

He has the tools to be a 2nd tier PG in the league for sure though, just underneath the superstars like Chris Paul and Deron Williams.


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

Sambonius said:


> I kind of disagree that he's a bad fit with Roy. I don't think having another excellent penetrator other than Roy would be a bad idea as I think Ford is one of the best at that actually and if he penetrates, players will have to decide if they want to help on TJ and leave Oden or Aldridge open for the dunk. While Ford isn't the threat that Jose is at the 3 point line, TJ is certainly a threat with his almost automatic mid range game.


I am not talking about ones ability to be a playmaker, that is good. But, TJ has always played the game with the ball in his hands most of the time. One of the big reasons Jack and Roy were so bad starting together at the start of the year is that Jack needs the ball in his hands to play point. Blake on the other hand, gives up the ball easily, usually right after he crosses half court, and then the ball swings and if he scores, someone usually gets an assist. This type of game works well with Roy since he needs time to be a playmaker.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

R-Star said:


> If you have the best young point guard behind Paul and Williams, you dont trade him.
> 
> And as far as the young argument, find me guys outside of Paul and Williams who broke into the top 5 pg's before they were 26.


Tony Parker. Also he's a year younger. 

Gilbert Arenas may be dinged, but he was definintely a top 5 PG early in his 20s. He's a year younger then Jose as well.

STOMP


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## SabasRevenge! (Apr 20, 2008)

Today's TOR game couldn't have hurt our chances at Jose...


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## Sonny-Canzano (Oct 20, 2007)

TJ Ford's play in the playoffs has really helped our chances at Calderon. 

Speaking of Toronto... Bargnani or Arujo, who's the bigger bust?


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## Ukrainefan (Aug 1, 2003)

After watching Jason Kidd in his most recent game (and looking at his stats in Dallas vs. NJ), I'm wondering if it is a good idea to trade for a point guard from the Atlantic Division of the Eastern Conference? It's possible that because of the weakness of that division, players and especially point guards, look better than they are.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Ukrainefan said:


> After watching Jason Kidd in his most recent game (and looking at his stats in Dallas vs. NJ), I'm wondering if it is a good idea to trade for a point guard from the Atlantic Division of the Eastern Conference? It's possible that because of the weakness of that division, players and especially point guards, look better than they are.


Its not like that division only plays exclusively against each other. Those players have to play the entire league like everybody else. Jason Kidd's looking pretty washed up and I don't think it has anything to do with what division he's in.

Calderon on the other hand, had one bad game. He's forgiven by me. I hope he's not forgiven by Colangelo though and we can snag him this summer.


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## Ukrainefan (Aug 1, 2003)

Here's something very positive on Calderon from Stan van Gundy: clearly it's Calderon who worries the Magic most because of his ability to get the other Toronto players involved in the offense. Van Gundy went as far as comparing Calderon to two-time MVP Steve Nash. "The most impressive thing with Calderon is that he and Nash are the best in the league at delivering the ball. His guys never have to reach because the ball is right on their hands. You don't get time to get there to contest the shot because Calderon puts it right there," Van Gundy said. . . . 


http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080427/SPORTS/804270340/1002/SPORTS


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

^I definitely see where he is going with that. I agree. Calderon is definitely one of the best passing PGs in the league.


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

BenDavis503 said:


> Good point. I cannot wait to see what happens!!! I wouldn't mind trying to get Ford either. But yeah that sweet spot he has to end his career is scary.
> 
> Anyhow, I do think that it would be hard for Toronto to turn down Outlaw and 13th pick. They could get a better center like Hibbert, or they could get a good rookie PG to backup Ford AND have Outlaw play SF\PF for them.
> 
> ...


FYI Parker is MUCH better than Moon.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

^ Moon can't play the 2 spot either....no confidence in his handle, does not create for himself of shoot all that well.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

this might have been mentioned already, but last summer, before calderon had established himself as much as he had and when the raptors were looking fully committed to tj.ford, collangelo reportedly turned down josh childress and the 11th pick for calderon.


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