# OT: Kobe Bryant



## AMΣRICAN GOD™ (Jun 4, 2005)

Lanteri said:


> Nice.
> 
> sidenote: Isn't it sacreligious to have a Lakers player in your avatar being that you're a Celtics fan, premier?


I was just thinking that myself.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*



Lanteri said:


> Nice.
> 
> sidenote: Isn't it sacreligious to have a Lakers player in your avatar being that you're a Celtics fan, premier?


Along with being a Celtics fan, I'm a fan of very good basketball players.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*



whiterhino said:


> Great accolade for Gomes I'm thrilled for him, he deserves it.
> 
> 
> Liking anyone on the Lakers as a Celtics fan is the equivilent of liking a Yankee when you love the Red Sox......I lived those days I would never forget them......*I guess I'm old because the Lakers are still evil to me*.


Me too. Always will be. I can not root for that team or anyone on it.


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*



Causeway said:


> Me too. Always will be. I can not root for that team or anyone on it.


I'm a traditionalist. 

To hell with the Lakers, Sixers, Pistons, etc.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

me thinks yall just stubbon


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

me thinks steve nash is gonna prove who really deserves MVP in game 7 :biggrin:


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> me thinks steve nash is gonna prove who really deserves MVP in game 7 :biggrin:


just like he did in the huge game 6. 50 points and no 'W' pretty much sums it up for the other guy.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

Yeah. Kobe sucks. If only he had passed more to Smush Parker, the Lakers wouldn't have lost. I mean, he missed 15 field-goal attempts. What a loser.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*



Premier said:


> Yeah. Kobe sucks. If only he had passed more to Smush Parker, the Lakers wouldn't have lost.




wait...isnt that how they won 3 out of the first 4 games???


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

Yeah, but in game three, Smush didn't go 0-5 from the field.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

yea...he went 9-16...much easier to get a rythm and some points when u take 16 shots rather than 5


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

If you do not display any offensive ability in the time you actually possessed the ball, you should not be allowed to shoot any more than five shots. Kobe does not control the team; Phil Jackson does. I think it's safe to say that he knows what he's doing in putting the ball in his best players' hands.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

People make it sound like if every other player in the league took as many shots as Kobe then they would all be on his level.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

There are many reasons to not support or root for Kobe. The fact that he plays for the Lakers is more than enough for this Celtics fan. 

But Kobe will be happy when he gets his trophy. Scoring title trophy.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*



Premier said:


> If you do not display any offensive ability in the time you actually possessed the ball, you should not be allowed to shoot any more than five shots. Kobe does not control the team; Phil Jackson does. I think it's safe to say that he knows what he's doing in putting the ball in his best players' hands.


A coach can not totally control if a player wants to share the ball. 

Meanwhile in another playoff series a guy named James had not problem with a guy named Jones - Jones being not even close to a star - taking and hitting the game winning shot. 

LeBron at 21 gets it better than Kobe.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*



Causeway said:


> A coach can not totally control if a player wants to share the ball.


Right. Kobe can not be commanded to share the ball by Jackson. He's doing it, this series, by his own free will. Basically, this entire season, Kobe Bryant has done everything humanly possible to benefit the Lakers. Los Angeles does not need any more wild scoring eruptions from Kobe anymore, unless they are struggling offensively (fourth quarter of game six). Kwame Brown and Lamar Odom finally get the triangle offense and Kobe is finding them quite easily.



> Meanwhile in another playoff series a guy named James had not problem with a guy named Jones - Jones being not even close to a star - taking and hitting the game winning shot.


Uh...Larry Hughes made the decision to pass to Damon Jones as he was wide-open.



> LeBron at 21 gets it better than Kobe.


Yeah, so does Brian Scalabrine, right? I mean, _he_ is a team player.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*



DWest Superstar said:


> People make it sound like if every other player in the league took as many shots as Kobe then they would all be on his level.


This point needs to be stressed. Kobe and Gilbert Arenas are the only two players in the league who can carry an offense if need be - still at an efficient rate. Other players' effectiveness would dramatically decrease with constant double-teams and the added fatigue of hoisting up thirty (plus) shots. It's amazing that Kobe is still amazing efficient.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*



Premier said:


> Right. Kobe can not be commanded to share the ball by Jackson. He's doing it, this series, by his own free will. Basically, this entire season, Kobe Bryant has done everything humanly possible to benefit the Lakers. Los Angeles does not need any more wild scoring eruptions from Kobe anymore, unless they are struggling offensively (fourth quarter of game six). Kwame Brown and Lamar Odom finally get the triangle offense and Kobe is finding them quite easily.
> 
> 
> Uh...Larry Hughes made the decision to pass to Damon Jones as he was wide-open.
> ...


Point is that you were saying the reason Kobe and the Lakers would not get more than 5 shots for Smush was because he missed a few. Yet in Cleveland Jones who's name is not LeBron was given the game winning shot. 

And I have no idea what Scabs has to do with this. He has nowhere near the talent of Kobe or Lebron so not sure why you'd compare Scabs to Kobe.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

That is because he was open. Also, Damon Jones hasn't shown any offensive struggle as he hasn't played.

You're essentially arguing that players who play a team game "get it" more than Bryant. What I see, though, is a player who does "get it" and to show this, he forces himself to do anything within his control to make his team win, even when they are playing horribly (see tonight's first half).


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

Play about 82 games of pretty much all Kobe all the time - and then you want your teammates to step up in the playoffs? Too late. 

And yes players who realize it's a team game do "get it" but that in no way says you should compare Scabs to Kobe. comparing LeBron to Kobe though does make sense. I'll take Bron.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*



Causeway said:


> comparing LeBron to Kobe though does make sense. I'll take Bron.




yea...what he said


and comparing Kobe to Nash for MVP...ill take nash


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

Me too.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

I'll take Kobe over either, noting the defensive inabilities of the other players.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

That second half tonight has to be the ugliest performance by an NBA star in a playoff game. Kobe pretty much said "screw it. I don't want any blame for this mess. I am going to do nothing.". Pathetic.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

absolutely no excuse for taking 3 shots in the 2nd half of a game 7 as a superstar...yea i get on him alot for taking too many shots but this is different...takin too few is just as bad...damn it was sickening watching kwame and walton taking so many shots and kobe not even making an effort


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

Kobe sucks.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

Yeah but don't forget Kobe "gets it" and will do whatever it takes to win. If not he'll just throw his teammates under the bus. 

But Kobe DOES have the ability to play defense.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

Too bad Bryant cashed it in during the second half of a Game 7.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

Phil Jackson's post-game conference, as re-told by kflo:

he said they weren't going to win with kobe going off. so they wanted to test nash's ankle, run the offense through lamar, pound the ball inside. if kobe did his thing they still would have been down 20. they needed other guys to step up to have any chance at winning.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

I honestly do not get it.

You guys yell at Kobe for taking too much shots. If he doesn't take a lot of shots, Kobe gets criticised for not "taking the game over." Double-edged sword.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

It's actaully very simple. There is a middle ground between taking too many shots - and taking 3 shots in a second half of a game 7 when you are the teams leading scorer. It should not be all or nothing.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

Jackson stated that he would rather have his guards trying to wear down Nash's bum ankle (landed awkwardly after colliding with Shawn Marion) rather than having Kobe take every shot.

The guy had 23 points of the Lakers' 45 at halftime. He did not decide to give up. He played within Phil Jackson's game plan. It's unfortunate that his teammates could not step up and hit the shots that the Lakers needed.


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## AMΣRICAN GOD™ (Jun 4, 2005)

That's right, steal traffic away from MY thread. Psh.

I like Kobe personally. Got ****ed in the media though.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

I thought Nash could not play and defense anyway - so why should his ankle change the game plan? And it was pretty obvious that the "new" plan was not working early on. Kobe was not helping get guys good looks. He was feeding them at the top of the key and pointing to the basket as if to say "go for it - good luck". Kobe should be embarrassed.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*



Premier said:


> me thinks yall just stubbon


me thinks you a Caker fan 

traitor :banana:


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Gomes Named to All-Rook Second Team*

Another team Big Donut?


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

oh the Spurs avatar? LOL...

Me and a few other Kings fan accepted a bet from the Spurs fans, one of them playoff bets, and lost. So i have to keep this for 2 weeks. :curse:


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Causeway said:


> I thought Nash could not play and defense anyway - so why should his ankle change the game plan?


Smush Parker and Sasha Vujacic (well, Vujacic in game seven; he was awesome for the first three (or four) games, as was Smush for game three) aren't exactly stellar offensive threats. 



> And it was pretty obvious that the "new" plan was not working early on. Kobe was not helping get guys good looks. He was feeding them at the top of the key and pointing to the basket as if to say "go for it - good luck".


Actually, the first two points of the third quarter was the result of the "new" gameplan. The Lakers just could not capatilize on the inside opportunities with Kobe drawing a doulbe-team at the perimeter and passing to a secondary perimeter player, who initated the offense from there.



> Kobe should be embarrassed.


When you scored 23 points in a half and your team is down 15 despite the best effort possible for a current NBA player, I don't think anything can surpass the embarrassment of your teammates who completely did not show up for the most important game of the season.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> When you scored 23 points in a half and your team is down 15 despite the best effort possible for a current NBA player, I don't think anything can surpass the embarrassment of your teammates who completely did not show up for the most important game of the season.




sooooooo what should the superstar who didnt show up for the second half of the most important game of the season feel???


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> Smush Parker and Sasha Vujacic (well, Vujacic in game seven; he was awesome for the first three (or four) games, as was Smush for game three) aren't exactly stellar offensive threats.


So then why defer to them?




Premier said:


> Actually, the first two points of the third quarter was the result of the "new" gameplan. The Lakers just could not capatilize on the inside opportunities with Kobe drawing a doulbe-team at the perimeter and passing to a secondary perimeter player, who initated the offense from there.


"the first two points of the third quarter" are enough to stick a plan a whole half - even when you are getting trounced?




Premier said:


> When you scored 23 points in a half and your team is down 15 despite the best effort possible for a current NBA player, I don't think anything can surpass the embarrassment of your teammates who completely did not show up for the most important game of the season.


It's a two half game.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

*On the Pleasure of Hating Kobe Bryant*



> The Phoenix crowd's Game 7 chant of "Kobe sucks" brought on another round of awkward posturing. Kobe cupped his hand to his ear, Hulk Hogan-style, and held it long enough for TNT's cameras to swivel and zoom; then he nodded sarcastically with his lips pursed for a good 10 seconds. It was supposed to look cocky and defiant but came off as empty petulant theater. When play resumed he launched into an incredible burst of scoring that made me wonder if the greatest talent in the basketball universe is merely an expression of insecurity.
> 
> The circumstances surrounding the Phoenix series made Kobe's image-manipulation comically transparent. When word leaked out that Steve Nash had won the MVP again, essentially for being the anti-Kobe, Bryant suddenly transformed his game into a mediocre Nash impression,* passing up good shots to get his teammates slightly worse ones*. Though the media congratulated him for his selflessness, his real agenda—to prove that he was the snubbed MVP who can do it all—was painfully obvious. Kobe is the only player in the league whose game is most showy when he scores fewer than 30 points.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

ouch...lol


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

For those who missed the game or are claiming Kobe was working hard to try and get guys good open looks - watch this video. Forget about the Barkely/Kobe fued (yet another public fued for Kobe). Watch the video of Kobe passively dumping the ball to guys at the top of the key and...doing nothing. This was not a star player fighting to get his team back into a game seven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-GuYj6eXvY&search=charles barkley


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Causeway said:


> So then why defer to them?


The supposed plan, not of Kobe Bryant's; of Phil Jackson's, was in hopes of the Lakers start to consistently hit shots, ie get "hot", and this would create defensive momentum as in games two through four. The Lakers failed to execute due to Parker and Vujacic's bad shooting strech. All throughout the time that Kobe played in the second half, they were getting good shots and I believe that Jackson wanted to stick with them for the chance that they would start hitting _something_. 



> "the first two points of the third quarter" are enough to stick a plan a whole half - even when you are getting trounced?


That comment was in response to your "early on" statement. Also, as I recall, it was working for the first few minutes of the third quarter, but Kwame Brown and Lamar Odom's unfortunate lack of hands (for this game) and poor outside shooting quickly took the Lakers out of an already unreachable game.



> It's a two half game.


And Kobe took over for the first half and the Lakers managed to be losing by 15. Personally, I think Kobe realized that he has had great scoring games against the Suns in the regular season, but never won against them. He realized that there was virtually no way to win, especially by "taking the game over," which is something that you frown upon based on your remarks against Kobe for doing such a team as taking a lot of field goal attempts, even while he remains one of the most efficient players in the league while experiencing great fatigue.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> sooooooo what should the superstar who didnt show up for the second half of the most important game of the season feel???


He should feel betrayed by his teammates.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Causeway said:


> *On the Pleasure of Hating Kobe Bryant*


Sam Anderson of Slate.com is one of the most celebrated basketball analysts of our time, I see.

Also, the media has never been a fan of someone like Kobe Bryant.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> That comment was in response to your "early on" statement. Also, as I recall, it was working for the first few minutes of the third quarter, but Kwame Brown and Lamar Odom's unfortunate lack of hands (for this game) and poor outside shooting quickly took the Lakers out of an already unreachable game.


The plan was not working. If it was after the first two points or first few minutes does not really matter. In my book game seven of the playoffs it's not over until it's over. You at least make adjustments - and effort - to win. Kobe did neither.



Premier said:


> And Kobe took over for the first half and the Lakers managed to be losing by 15.


Still not a reason to pack in in for the second half.



Premier said:


> Personally, I think Kobe realized that he has had great scoring games against the Suns in the regular season, but never won against them. He realized that there was virtually no way to win, especially by "taking the game over," which is something that you frown upon based on your remarks against Kobe for doing such a team as taking a lot of field goal attempts, even while he remains one of the most efficient players in the league while experiencing great fatigue.


Correct I did frown upon Kobe's FGA's in the regular season and the all-Kobe game plan. And game seven showed why. You don't play 82 or so games of all Kobe and then come the second half of a game seven say - "ok guys I am done. Take over". It's simply too late for that.

I have spoken with Laker fans by the way who have been harsher on Kobe's game seven then me.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Causeway said:


> The plan was not working. If it was after the first two points or first few minutes does not really matter. In my book game seven of the playoffs it's not over until it's over. *You at least make adjustments - and effort - to win.* Kobe did neither.


That is Jackson's call.



> Still not a reason to pack in in for the second half.


When a gameplan that consisted of a player dominating the game on the offensive end works to perfection, yet your team is down fifteen, it is an indication that said plan will not be effective as the game progresses and will only cause a greater margin of defeat.



> Correct I did frown upon Kobe's FGA's in the regular season and the all-Kobe game plan. And game seven showed why. You don't play 82 or so games of all Kobe and then come the second half of a game seven say - "ok guys I am done. Take over". It's simply too late for that.


Jackson has gone on record stating that the Lakers, sans Kobe, were not ready to play the triangle offense. Lamar Odom struggled all throughout the year up until the last month of the season. Even Scottie Pippen was not able to guide Odom through the learning process so that he would be ready by opening day. I'm not even mentioning the rest of the team's learning curves (well besides Walton, who I feel understood the offense yet isn't very talented). We saw in games two through four that the Lakers can execute the triangle properly, but it took them an entire season to learn it. Meanwhile, to have the Lakers stay competitive, Kobe did his own thing and scored and scored and scored to win basketball games. If the Lakers tried to play the triangle the way they did it in games two and four, the Suns would be procuring their lottery selection this draft. In games six and especially, seven, the Lakers missed key opportunities and failed to execute - missing shots, not handling the ball, being unable to catch the ball, turning it over easily, etc. The point is, Kobe kept the Lakers playoff-bound by himself until the team was ready to fully initiate Jackon's triangle offense in the playoffs, which they did very well for quite some time. Next year, I expect the Lakers to be even better. Anyways, we'll see.



> I have spoken with Laker fans by the way who have been harsher on Kobe's game seven then me.


and...


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

tomato tomato potato potato. 

3 shots and one point in the second half - of a game seven - is wrong. no matter how it's spinned.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

alright children. let's break it up. :wink:


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

XtaZ606 said:


> alright children. let's break it up. :wink:


"XtaZ606" ?


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

hes tryin to shed the id of bigdonut and hope that we wont notice who it really is :biggrin:


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

I see. Thanks.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

If what I'm arguing is spin then I guess Phil Jackson really cares about Kobe's media relations, well enough so that he'll make up a gameplan to make Kobe look better.

I doubt it.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

That game did not make Kobe look better.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> hes tryin to shed the id of bigdonut and hope that we wont notice who it really is :biggrin:


want a cookie? :wink:


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Causeway said:


> That game did not make Kobe look better.


Yes, so why would Jackson lie about _his _gameplan?


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Got it. I mis-read your earlier post thinking you meant Phil _drew up_ a game plan to try and make Kobe look better. Not that you meant that Phil in the post-game press conf. _made up_ what the game plan was to cover Kobe. My bad.

And to answer your question - I don't know. But there has to be more of an explanation than what we got from Phil and Kobe. I do believe Phil decided that the only way to get back in the game was with more from the rest of the team. And with Kobe having a 23 point half and the Lakers still down by 15 that would be obvious. However I would HIGHLY doubt Phil intended for Kobe to completely shut down his own offense. Say what you want about Phil but he's a pretty smart dude and coach. Anyone could would have known that no matter how much the other guys stepped up - with one point and three shots from Kobe they had ZERO shot.

Something during the half had to of gone down. Either Phil (or someone else) said something that pissed Kobe off - or Kobe just got into a funk. Or both. If not then Phil should be taken to task for a horrible game plan with no adjustments when it clearly was not working. And Kobe should be blamed as well for sticking to a horrible plan.

If I were to speculate - I do think Phil was covering for Kobe post-game. Phil knows he and Kobe will be back next season. He also knows Kobe has a fragile ego and will need him if the Lakers are to go anywhere.

The only other logical explination is Phil morphed into a terrible coach. The lack of any changes to stop the pick-and-roll could lend something to that theory. However there also was zero effort from any Laker - Kobe included - to block the lane and stop the barrage of easy layups and put a body on a guy. That's out of Phils hands.

And let's not forget - Kobe _has _ shut down his offense in a playoff game in the past to prove a point.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Speculation isn't something that can be argued so I guess we'll leave it at that.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Hopefully the thread will FINALLY disappear. :wink:


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

XtaZ606 said:


> Hopefully the thread will FINALLY disappear. :wink:



just like bigdonut did? :biggrin:


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## AMΣRICAN GOD™ (Jun 4, 2005)

Causeway said:


> just like bigdonut did? :biggrin:


No man, he changed his name to XtaZ606 or something. He has own forum and everything now.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

TAllen42 said:


> No man, he changed his name to XtaZ606 or something. He has own forum and everything now.


:rotf: Somebody wasn't quick enough...


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> :rotf: Somebody wasn't quick enough...




hahaha i was thinking the same exact thing :biggrin:


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