# '05 draft picks glad Larry's gone



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> '05 draft picks glad Larry's gone
> 
> BY GREG LOGAN
> Newsday Staff Correspondent
> ...



The rooks(um... I mean 2nd year players) have had their say and basically it looks like they just threw LB under the bus....i think its safe to say of the "about 8 players" who directly blamed brown for a poor season we may have found 3 here.


----------



## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

Damn I'm not surprised at Nate for coming out and saying what he had to say because I know he hated Brown. I was a little surprised at how open Frye was, but with that said stop blaming Brown for all of last season's failures. He shouldn't get blamed for 100 percent of the mishaps last year. How about 50/50 between him and Zeke. :biggrin:


----------



## 0oh_S0o_FreSh!! (Jun 3, 2006)

They are definately exaggerating..im glad LB's gone but they found a way to blame ALL of it on him, when 

1. Nate robinson did not even listen to Larry, and prolly is why the knicks won 23 games last season

i really think that LB's coaching style is meant for veteran players, not yung guys like ours, but next season, expect the knicks season to be a great one....


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Kitty said:


> Damn I'm not surprised at Nate for coming out and saying what he had to say because I know he hated Brown. I was a little surprised at how open Frye was, but with that said stop blaiming Larry Brown for all of last season's failures. We"ve been failing as a franchise since Ewing got traded.


sometimes ...and this is just sometimes , people lay blame at the person they actually feel is responsible.

that being said i honestly look at the roster from the 33-49 team and the 23-59 win team and the 23 win team is clearly better there was no logical reason they should have been 10 games worse .

the center spot actually had centers eddy was a better center if not a better player than either kurt thomas or sweetney, and curry is clearly a better player than nazr, in fact the center spot is the only spot the knicks showed an advantage statistically last season so it went from their greatest weakness to actually their greatest strength. jackie butler was a help and for the most part jerome james wasn't.

the 4 spot was manned by frye mostly and mo taylor, with malik rose...mo is mo and i consider a rookie frye the equal of kurt, malik and sweetney and some jyd of the previous season.

at small forward there was basically tim thomas and trevor ariza with some jyd and penny sprinkled in, vs the commitee of jalen , ariza til the deadline qwoods qrich and david lee...timmy is the best of the lot but he only played well in 2003-04 from march on until that point he was hurt and hampered by personal tragedy. ariza as a rook was no better than any of the guys that replaced him , in fact in many was he was inferior.

at guard in 2004-05 it was basically steph and jc with some sprinkling in of injured guards H2O and penny later on it was jermaine jackson and some moochie and jamison brewer before the deadline...in 2005-06 its still jc and marbury but augmented with jalen rose, steve francis , nate robinson and qrich.

center became much better 
power forward about the same 
small forward about the same but a lil' worse
shooting guard became better 
point guard became better

obviously it didn't work out like that, except for center all positions actually got worse and looked uninterested, under thomas i expect that to change.


----------



## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

Grinch, so what you're trying to say is that you blame Larry Brown the HOF coach, for the reason why this season was one of the most embarassing seasons in Knicks history? He gets *100 *percent of the blame correct?


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Kitty said:


> Grinch, so what you're trying to say is that you blame Larry Brown the HOF coach, for the reason why this season was one of the most embarassing seasons in Knicks history? He gets *100 *percent of the blame correct?


 As to why the team regressed despite adding on more talent? yes.


----------



## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

Who hired LB? So who gets the blame there? I'm waiting for the spin on that one. After watching his horrible coaching job with Steph and the Olympic team I want to know what GM would allow him to try to work with Steph in the first place. So I'm a sit and wait and watch the spin artists at work.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Kitty said:


> Grinch, so what you're trying to say is that you blame Larry Brown the HOF coach, for the reason why this season was one of the most embarassing seasons in Knicks history? He gets *100 *percent of the blame correct?


If ever a term is over used, it is HOF coach in regards to Larry Brown. Kitty just replace that with overrated coach Larry Brown.

Yes he gets 100% of the blame because someone as good as Brown (and Screaming A Smith) thinks he is should have gotten 40 wins out of that roster.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Kitty said:


> Who hired LB? So who gets the blame there? I'm waiting for the spin on that one. After watching his horrible coaching job with Steph and the Olympic team I want to know what GM would allow him to try to work with Steph in the first place. So I'm a sit and wait and watch the spin artists at work.


Well the smart people said it was idiotic move when it was rumored and spent countless posts talking about how overrated Brown was (yes Kitty, I think I just hurt my arm patting myself on the back). However, if you want to play the who hired game, then the blame goes all the way up to Dolan for hiring Zeke.

Yes, the Knicks were destined to fail last season; however, that was easy to predict with Brown as the coach. Yet somehow, Brown managed to turn it into an even bigger mess than even I could have predicted. So, yes, Brown still gets 100% of the blame for last season.


----------



## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> If ever a term is over used, it is HOF coach in regards to Larry Brown. Kitty just replace that with overrated coach Larry Brown.
> 
> Yes he gets 100% of the blame because someone as good as Brown (and Screaming A Smith) thinks he is should have gotten 40 wins out of that roster.


_"We made a mistake hiring Larry Brown."-Dolan_

Clearly our beloved owner said that we made a mistake, so common sense alone would tell you that Larry Brown shouldn't receive 100 percent of the blame. Common sense alone would have also tell you that he shouldn't have been hired to coach this team in the first place. Just by reading the rookies comments, it backs it up that he just don't have love for rookies period. As for the HOF reference, if he was inducted in the hall of fame, that makes him a hall of famer. So saying that term is overrated when LB name is brought up really dosen't hold much weight.


----------



## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> Well the smart people said it was idiotic move when it was rumored and spent countless posts talking about how overrated Brown was (yes Kitty, I think I just hurt my arm patting myself on the back). However, if you want to play the who hired game, then the blame goes all the way up to Dolan for hiring Zeke.
> 
> Yes, the Knicks were destined to fail last season; however, that was easy to predict with Brown as the coach. Yet somehow, Brown managed to turn it into an even bigger mess than even I could have predicted. So, yes, Brown still gets 100% of the blame for last season.


I didn't see your revised post, but nevertheless it doesn't change my stance. A lot of folks on this board express their doubts about how Larry Brown and Steph would get along and if he would play the rookies etc. So if a average Knick fan had some trepidations about the hiring then management should have foreseen a potential problem.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Kitty said:


> I didn't see your revised post, but nevertheless it doesn't change my stance. A lot of folks on this board express their doubts about how Larry Brown and Steph would get along and if he would play the rookies etc. So if a average Knick fan had some trepidations about the hiring then management should have foreseen a potential problem.


Were the Knicks worse than your worst expectation of them last season?


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Kitty said:


> Grinch, so what you're trying to say is that you blame Larry Brown the HOF coach, for the reason why this season was one of the most embarassing seasons in Knicks history? He gets *100 *percent of the blame correct?



no not 100% not at all , but i do blame him as the leader in what went wrong.

hate him or love him marbury didn't pick fights with brown , it was the other way around ...i feel he should have rode it out, he took it for 4 months he might as well have rode out the season , but obviously when the team tells the coach to cut it out and not the player its more than apparent who was in the wrong. stephon is not a good leader we can all agree but he was not a good leader the previous season nothing changed except a coach who refused to make it work.

curry was out of shape due to his heart issue and he could not work out until knicks training camp, that really has no one to blame, its how things were. wanting curry bought out when he was clearly the best center on the roster was dumb and the only one who was over 6'8 and not a complete idiot.

jerome james on the other hand was simply an embarrasment, he had every opportunity to supplant curry or at least make himself an important cog and he failed miserably. i could actually understand brown wanting him bought out.

i dont see how anyone could complain about lee frye or nate , they did their best and brought some energy to the roster.

ariza was basically crapped on and i dont think he handled it well compounding his issues with brown.

qrich and malik rose were good soldiers, but couldn't hit a shot to save their lives .

mo taylor changed alot of his game to suit brown , but defense and rebounding are just not his strong suits. i consider him a good guy in this. but apparently Brown wanted him bought out.

jalen was brought in because he was a true 3 , and unlike ariza didn't hate his guts, brown didn't try to make it work with him either.

qyntel, had his moment of poor behavior , but for the most part seemed like a good player and decent worker for brown.

AD was done he just couldn't move anymore. after he was trade he said brown was making things to hard for his players .

butler didn't seem to cause any problems

francis had his dustup about starting i think his issues were self imposed actually. brown wanted him bought out after just 2 months

ime udoka ...well he seemed like a good soldier.

jc has had nothing but good things to say about brown , but aaron jamal crawford is like a ray of sunshine in his 6 years of playing nba ball i have never seen him mad, and only critical once, towards john paxson, and bulls management, and even that statement was one of relief because he was a knick. I am assuming it takes a great deal to make him go negative...and LB did not reach that point with him.

i look at the knicks as a unit and they clearly all like each other , I'm sorry i dont buy all the media stuff when i see them interacting on the court, marbury bought suits for the young then rookies , something you dont do for people you dont get along with , and while the knick fandom hates jerome james , he is according to anyone who would know one of the most popular knicks among the team , the team look like its the 6 degrees of crawford with over half the roster either played with him in high school, the bulls went to his alma mater or played ball with him in the summer time and because they played with him they generally played with others currently on the roster . there is no sane reason they should have had such poor chemistry on the court, I think the reason was always obvious , Larry brown made it a bad work enviroment and he didn't put them in the best position to win, he confused and alienated the roster and thats the main reason the team was so bad.

the players of course had a choice to buck this and play through him and except for some exceptions they didn't , the fell into his world of negativity which was harsh and often understated .

for instance starting guys in their hometown , teams trying to win dont do that , you play the guys who give you the best chance to win , Brown was basically said with this action , it doesn't matter who starts none of you are all that important and neither are your roles (oops he never defined their roles did he?) and what you do for the team, i never saw that stuff when he was coaching the pistons because its insulting especially so early in the season, and because the games mattered to brown in detriot. which is saying to the players it didn't matter in NY.

how does a guy who normally starts or who worked himself into position to start supposed to take it when he is benched because the team is playing in another player's hometown or state, just completely devaluing that player's hard work to be in position to start?

the jumping around of substitutions and playing time just made it harder to stay on an even keel with teams that were stable. its was very possible to go from a starter to someone who didn't even play the next game because you were in a ceratin teammates hometown.

of course there is the demeaning way he spoke of his players in the media in the world's biggest media outlet, there is something very wrong with a boss telling the whole world his subordinates suck, instead of telling his players this directly and keeping it in house.

these players are all adults so i dont at all blame him for everything but he did imo such a poor job he gains the majority of my scorn.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

i have never said it was a bad idea to hire brown ...it was a good idea, brown had the pedigree and the defensive mentality to make things work in NYC.

but his actions clearly showed he didn't want to make it work which is why there is a better chance than people want to admit Browns' contract can be voided. the knicks took a chance on brown and it failed , they have since cut bait and are starting over . If the knicks are just as bad under thomas , then i will humbly say i was wrong , but i think they will most likely just be a better team than the 33 win team because thats who i compare the knicks to , brown did a job that was incomaparble to me.

IT is the press' worst nightmare a coach that will do everything possible to give them as little controversy possible. it was rumored the reason under thomas croshere was chained to bench was that he was leaking stuff to the press or that zeke thought he was.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Da Grinch said:


> i have never said it was a bad idea to hire brown ...it was a good idea, brown had the pedigree and the defensive mentality to make things work in NYC.


His pedigree and defensive system are greatly overrated and I'm not just saying this now. I've said for a long time that Brown is overrated.


----------



## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

> Last season's rookie trio had ripped Brown's coaching methods earlier in the week and Frye felt bad about how it came out. "I took some flak for that," Frye said of his Brown bash. "*But I never said he wasn't a great coach. For him to take the whole blame, that's not right."*


Link



> As angry as team officials are with Brown, they were not pleased to see Frye, Robinson and David Lee — last year's rookies — criticize their former coach. Frye sounded chastened as he revisited those comments Friday.
> "He made the decisions that he made," Frye said of Brown. "I'm not mad at him. It was a character-building situation."
> 
> Frye later added: "I think Larry is one of the greatest coaches around. I just felt like last year we just had a lot of things that didn't go right. I think I'm basically just trying to move on."


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/08/sports/basketball/08knicks.html


----------

