# the vince carter trade ideas thread



## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

already in discussion in two threads, Chuck Swirsky interviews Michelle Carter on the Fan590 and Rumour: Carter wants out is talk of a rumour surfacing at the moody bible institute regarding Vince Carter's departure from Toronto. With Vince trade ideas surely to pour in (i know i'm bubbling) i'll present an idea or two for duscussion and hope people add ideas of their own.

1.
LAC/ATL
to LA: Carter
to ATL: Rose, pick no.2 (LAC)
to TO: Wilcox (LAC) Henderson (ATL) pick no.6

the clipps get a proven seat filling superstar without losing their core of Brand, Maggette, Kaman. if they can hold on to richardson, they'll have great depth with their only issue being PG {Duhon with their 2nd?}

atlanta gets their boy in Howard, Rose may even be the big guard that lets terry explode and returning Henderson with the pick lightens his salary substancially -- they're left under the cap as a player in free agency and still have the 17th

toronto's salary position is improved dramatically and gets better the next season, too as henderson and marshall come off. Wilcox is a very good young bigman who would start at center, giving us a very young core of Bosh, Wilcox, 6, 8, 40


2.
CHI
to chicago: vince carter, alvin williams
to toronto: tyson chandler, eddie robinson, scottie pippin, pick no.3

unquestionably better than al harrington, carter brings stardomback to the bulls and gives their offence a focalpoint. Carter's game with a real PG (hindrick) and C (curry) should take another step up. williams, a guy chicagos' regected before (but never for e-rob nor in conjuction with carter) will bring added veteran presence.

toronto gets a marcus camby-like center who can be a defensive rebounding monster without having to worry about compensating for curry's non-D. i believe tyson is best suited to the 5, even if he's light of build, and he would play the 5 in toronto. e-rob will help with scoring from swing and may just need a change of scenery -- his deal ends the same year as murray. pippin's deal is ending and i believe insurance coverred. with the third pick toronto could take Deng or even Livingston (if he impresses enough, he'd be my choice) giving toronto two young towers and a super-hyped PG to go along with the 8th and 40th pick

so there's two thoughts. of the two, the chicago deal seems to bring the most logical benefit between the two teams.


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## AdamIllman (May 12, 2003)

i saw this thread coming a mile away....

just for kicks..i've said it before and it got shot down by most but...

vince for 6, 17 and diaw.

atl does it because it would drastically increase their fan base.

we do it because it gives us bosh, diaw, 6, 8, 17 to build around. think of a future lineup of....

1 - Gordon
2 - Diaw
3 - Snyder
4 - Bosh
5 - Biedrins


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

i don't know a lot about diaw but if ATL can't get Howard, this is actually a good deal for them they're not taking nasty contracts (although i'd hope we could move more onto them) they give up a rookie and two picks but they're definitely getting more locked value in return than they're giving out

replace gordon with livingston and i like it even more


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

I would have to shoot that one again, mainly because ATL has almost no one on that team. If they were one or two years ahead in their development, I think it would be doable.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

I can't imagine Atlanta trading for Jalen Rose, not even if it gets them Dwight Howard. They just blew up their entire to team so they could get rid of all their bad contracts, now they're going to take on an even worse contract? Not going to happen.

I think it'll be pretty tough to get someone to take on Rose or Alvin Williams, even if they get Carter. Those contracts are so bad that it's just not worth it. Lamond Murray, you can probably get someone to take him on.

These trades are more realistic, although I don't think Toronto would want to do them unless Carter had demanded a trade. I haven't checked them on the trade checker but they should be pretty close to working.

-Carter and Murray to the Clippers for Chris Wilcox, Melvin Ely, and Marco Jaric

-Carter and Murray to the Pacers for Al Harrington, Jonathan Bender, Fred Jones, and expiring filler (Primoz Brezec)

-Carter and Murray to the Blazers for Shareef Abdur-Rahim, both Portland first-round picks, and expiring filler (Vladimir Stepania)

-Carter and Murray to the Jazz for Matt Harpring and two of Utah's first-round picks.

The thing is if a guy demands a trade then you just won't get equal value for him. Look at what the Sixers got for Charles Barkley, they got Jeff Hornacek and two projects who never panned out. It's a bad situation when your star demands a trade and I hope it's not going to come to that.


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

I'll play along since I have nothing better to do...

If (and that's a big if) Vince really wants out...

To the Clippers - Vince Carter
To the Raptors - Quentin Richardson(sign/trade) + the 2nd overall pick.
**contracts may have to be added.

The 2nd and 8th overall picks would give us a nice base to build around, for example, at #2 we pick Howard and at #8 we go for the best guard available(Harris, Gordon, Igoudala).

Harris/Gordon
Richardson
Rose
Bosh/Howard
FA/with Bosh and Howard getting some mins here

And with one more lotto appearance next season our foundation will have been laid. Then all we have to do is watch the players develop. A 3-4 year plan.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> -Carter and Murray to the Clippers for Chris Wilcox, Melvin Ely, and Marco Jaric
> 
> ...


Murray is not the priority to trade away for Toronto. His deal expires in only 2 years, which is when Babcock sees this team competeting. Jalen makes too much for too long. Alvin makes a little too much for what he gives but in a reduced role (20 min/gm) he can be solid. AW is the guy to throw in with a deal.

SAR is filler as it is. I can't see this team interested in a guy like him right now as a player. 

I think if a deal goes down, Babcock will target picks in the better part of the draft.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Since I like making fantasy trades..

*Toronto Trades:* Vince Carter ($12.59M), Lamond Murray ($4.88M), 8th Pick
*New Orleans Trades:* Jamal Mashburn ($9.3M), Jamaal Magloire ($6.75M), David West ($1.25M)


Alvin Williams/Blake Stepp/Rod Strickland
Jalen Rose/Morris Peterson/Roger Mason, Jr.
Jamal Mashburn/Donyell Marshall
Chris Bosh/David West
Jamaal Magloire/Adonal Foyle


Mash's deal would end at the same time as Rose's, should he exercise a two-year players option he has on it. That would give us enough space (just in time) to resign Bosh and Mags to max deals if they command it, with room left-over to resign David West.

Mash missed a lot of games this past season, but played a complete campaign in 02/03. When healthy, he is a top-5 player at his position and can dominate a game with his size, shooting, and passing. Rose at the 2 and Mash at the 3 would make for a very big line-up, which would be a boon in the Eastern Conference.

Magloire heads home to Toronto to fill our gap at the 5 with his blooming All-Star skills. Relieved he doesn't have to match-up with Shaq, Ming, and Duncan next year in the super sized Western Conference, Magloire improves in most categories and solidifies himself as the premier natural centre in the East.

David West, a late first-round pick that has impressed at both forward positions, stabilizes our frontcourt. Marshall and West make for a very versatile second unit for forwards and allows us to rest Bosh when needed or make-up for an injury to Mashburn should one happen.

Toronto loses it's lottery pick in the process, but I doubt there are any fans on this board that wouldn't trade the 8th pick if it meant getting an All-Star centre in return.


Why in the hell does Nawlens do this, though?!

Well, they've shown they can't make playoff waves in the East with this lineup, so what chance do they have in the West? Sagging attendance numbers and general disinterest in this team are alleviated by Vince Carter, now playing much closer to home.

Baron Davis gets a high-flying target to lob to and the Hornets get a top pick in the upcoming draft. They start their rebuilding by shedding the unhappy and oft-injured Mashburn and replace him with someone who can make them the money they will need to buy a contender.

Losing Magloire hurts, but at already 26 years old, he isn't going to be peaking when this team's young core is ready to take-over. At 8th the Hornets can draft a swing man to replace David Wesley in the starting line-up, such as Josh Smith or Andre Iguodala, or a centre prospect like Biedrins or Podkolzine. With their 18th pick, they can fill any other holes they may have.


Baron Davis/Darrell Armstrong
David Wesley/Courtney Alexander/Stacey Augmon
Vince Carter/George Lynch/Lamond Murray
PJ Brown/Al Jefferson
Andris Biedrins/Robert Traylor/Jaber Rouzbahani


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

This deal would have to go down after July officially because of Maggete's deal, but teams can draft for each other.

To LAC
VC
#40

To TOR
Maggette
#6
#10

To ATL
Eric Williams (expiring in July, so it's off the books)
AW
#2

CLE
Jason Terry

Or, more realistic

To LAC
VC
#40

To TOR
Maggette
#6
#17 

To ATL
AW
#2

Does not require a sign and trade, and thus could be agreed upon by the draft.


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## KeonBackinTO (May 26, 2003)

Toronto trades 8 and Vince

for 5 Kwame and Larry Hughes filler


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Fantasy trades are fun, but would anyone like to try their hand at a fantasy trade that somewhat fits with where the raptors are obviously headed?

Ie picks and young guys (25-26 tops) should be the main criteria. If you include a veteran, his deal should be reasonable in terms of when it expires, like 1 or 2 years. If you have a contributing player coming back with 4 years left and is 29 yrs old, you can be pretty sure it does not match what Babcock will be looking for, assuming VC is on the block now.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

To TOR
Eddie Robinson
Tyson Chandler
Josh Howard
#3

To CHI
Antawn Jamison

To DAL
Vince Carter
#32
#40


*OR*

To TOR
Corliss Williamson
Elden Campbell
Darko Milicic
Tayshaun Prince

To DET
Vince Carter
Jerome Moiso
Morris Peterson(re-signed)
#40


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

I hope we never trade Vince but if that happen is for 

Young players + solid veteran + and a lot of cap room + and future picks

Like the Knicks suns trade trade


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

Just for Fun

xxtreme trade:

Raptors Gets:
Shaquille O'Neal
Kareem Rush
Fisher

Lakers Gets:
Vince Carter
Chris Bosh
Lamond
#8

Raptors 04/05
PG-Fisher
SG-Rush
SF-Rose
PF-Donny
C-Shaq

Lakers 04/05
PG-Payton ???
SG-Kobe
SF-Vince
PF-Bosh
C-Paverl/Andris other Bigman


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## Ballyhoo (May 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> Raptors 04/05
> PG-Fisher
> SG-Rush
> ...


It would be fun watching Shaq, but that team wouldn't make the playoffs.


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

To Orlando: Vince Carter
To Toronto: 1st pick + Grant Hill

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ or

To Clippers: Jason Terry + Vince Carter
To Toronto: Atlanta's 6th Pick + Resigned Quentin Richardson + Atlanta's 17th Pick
To Atlanta: Clippers 2nd pick + Melvin Ely

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ or

To Portland: Vince Carter + 40th Pick
To Toronto: Both Portland's Pick + Shareef


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

to Toronto: #4 pick, a starter from expansion draft, cap room

to Charlotte: VC

____________________________

to Toronto: #7 pick, Lampe or Vujanic, cap room

to Phoenix: VC

_____________________________

to Toronto: #14 and #21 pick, Oostertag S&T, cap room

to Utah: VC

_____________________________

to Toronto: #13, #23, Quyntel Woods, DA

to Portland: VC


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## alpngso (May 23, 2003)

Toronto Trades

Vince Carter


Phoenix Trades

Shawn Marion
Casey Jacobson


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

couple quick notes... 

1. the model that pheonix took: move terrible salary with their allstar to open capspace is not appropriate to toronto.

when pheonix moved marbury and penny, they already had
i - stoudamire
ii - marion
iii - johnson
iv - barbosa
v - cabraca

we have
i - bosh

2. and this is just to be a stickler... you can't do a sign and trade with picks as players cannot be signed until after the draft is completed


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

guys... all this cap room stuff is really really overated... even if we happen to trade Vince for just draft picks.... we still won't be under the cap. Rose will be around hogging all the cap space for another 3 years, meaning we won't be able to sign anybody significant anyways.

also... vince is much more valuable than any player in this draft. There's a good chance that nobody in this draft will turn into a star.


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

I really hope we keep Vince around, but If we must trade Vince... This is the type of trade that I would consider...



> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> This deal would have to go down after July officially because of Maggete's deal, but teams can draft for each other.
> 
> To LAC
> ...


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>crimsonice</b>!
> I really hope we keep Vince around, but If we must trade Vince... This is the type of trade that I would consider...


If the Raptors are "forced" to get rid of Vince, it is not unreasonable to think that our well-payed vets will soon follow. 

The only two players that really screw up the cap are AW and Jalen. Jalen could be moved if this were a full-blown rebuild job.

NYK would be my bet.

AW probably goes with Vince, if Vince goes because well, 6 mill is a lot easier to swallow for another team than 14+ for JR.

Thanks for the love.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> Murray is not the priority to trade away for Toronto. His deal expires in only 2 years, which is when Babcock sees this team competeting. Jalen makes too much for too long. Alvin makes a little too much for what he gives but in a reduced role (20 min/gm) he can be solid. AW is the guy to throw in with a deal.
> ...


I think you are drastically over-estimating the willingness of other teams to take on awful contracts like Alvin. For now Alvin is worth maybe 3 million dollars a year, and if he expired within two years that would be one thing. But he goes on for FOUR MORE YEARS, and the last two years of that will probably be spent on the injured reserve. There's just no freaking way that the Hawks will trade their two picks AND take on Alvin or Jalen, just to get Dwight Howard.

Getting rid of Lamond may not be the greatest thing in the world but it's the most you can really ask for and if you can exchange his salary right now for a productive player like Harpring or Jaric then what's the problem with that?

Also you act like the Raptors are the only team in the league that is rebuilding and wants young players. Unless a team is a title contender, they are likely to be in the same situation as the Raptors, with a young core that they've gotten through the draft. Why would one of these teams want to trade a really good pick for Vince? I mean the Clippers core is around 23 years old and you're sending a 27-year-old Vince there, yet you're complaining when veterans get sent to Toronto. Don't you see the problem with that?

In reality you want to have a good mix of veterans and youth. Speedythief's Hornets trade is easily the best one that has been proposed in this thread.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

The Bulls trade:
Kirk Hinrich, ERob, #3 Pick

The Raptors trade: 
Vince Carter


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> The Bulls trade:
> Kirk Hinrich, ERob, #3 Pick
> 
> ...




I guess I was wrong that people would be hesitant to trade top picks for Vince.

This has the potential to set Chicago back another three or four years. The Raptors should jump all over it.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> I think you are drastically over-estimating the willingness of other teams to take on awful contracts like Alvin. For now Alvin is worth maybe 3 million dollars a year, and if he expired within two years that would be one thing. But he goes on for FOUR MORE YEARS, and the last two years of that will probably be spent on the injured reserve. There's just no freaking way that the Hawks will trade their two picks AND take on Alvin or Jalen, just to get Dwight Howard.
> 
> ...


You're right, why is it that every one of the top teams in the draft are trying to move their respective picks? Because they want a Vet instead of the young pick maybe. While there are teams rebuilding like Atlanta and PHX, there are a lot of teams that are tired of continually being in the Lottery. Chicago, the Wiz, and potentially the Clippers are looking to move down or out for the right deal

Hey if Vince asks for a trade, who says we have to trade him to a contender. Are you telling me that all the moves the Clippers make, make sense. If the Donald wants a sexy draw, maybe they get the OK to spend.

As for Atlanta, or anyone for that matter taking on Alvin, his contract does suck, but ATL has a ton of room and a ton of open roster spots. To be honest, they are talking about giving up more in value than I have listed here. (future 1st as well as taking a bad deal back) You gotta give to get. And in this case take back. Alvin is only worth 3 to 4 mil but how many other guys are overpaid by 2 mill?

I know NY is NY but they had to absorb a hell of a lot more than this in the Marbury deal. A 5+ million player will not kill them or their capspace even if it's long.

As for Speedy's deal, no offense to Speedy but if we traded VC and the 8 for a decent young center (yeah yeah eastern all-star, 13+ and 10+) and a SF that is more brittle and more apathetic than VC himself, I will immediately sever ties and allegiances with the Toronto Raptors.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> The Bulls trade:
> Kirk Hinrich, ERob, #3 Pick
> 
> ...


Deal!


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

LOL, you guys are way too willing... I take it back!


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Or, how about ERob, Chandler, and Hinrich ?


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Or, how about ERob, Chandler, and Hinrich ?


MMMMmmm...No.

Don't take it back, it was good.

:laugh:


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> As for Speedy's deal, no offense to Speedy but if we traded VC and the 8 for a decent young center (yeah yeah eastern all-star, 13+ and 10+) and a SF that is more brittle and more apathetic than VC himself, I will immediately sever ties and allegiances with the Toronto Raptors.


You don't have to like my proposal, but I'm a little confused about your reaction to it. Your the one that thinks this team needs to be rebuilt and that Carter is our most valuable trading commodity. You don't think trading Vince for a) cap space when we need it, a year sooner; b) a young All-Star centre; c) a very young and promising combo forward; and d) shedding Murray's contract, is in the best interest of our team? And Mashburn played a complete season in 02-03. Vince hasn't done that since 99-00.

If the goal isn't to win now, I don't see how trading for a player somewhat worse than Vince but gaining two promising young players in the process doesn't fall in line with your blow-it-up and start-over credo.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

If VC is really to be traded then the logical teams to look at are the ones that have been clearing cap space to go after Kobe. 

Clips
Suns
Nuggets
Atlanta
Jazz
Grizz

plus you could add in Chicago

Knicks too, but they have nothing we want, and no cap space to absorb salary.

Most of the above teams have a very high pick this year and cap space to absorb salary.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> 
> 
> You don't have to like my proposal, but I'm a little confused about your reaction to it. Your the one that thinks this team needs to be rebuilt and that Carter is our most valuable trading commodity. You don't think trading Vince for a) cap space when we need it, a year sooner; b) a young All-Star centre; c) a very young and promising combo forward; and d) shedding Murray's contract, is in the best interest of our team? And Mashburn played a complete season in 02-03. Vince hasn't done that since 99-00.
> ...


Mash is 32, played 48 in 97/98, 24 in 98/99, 40 in 00/01 and 19 this year. Not exactly durable and he has 3 years and 30 million left. Not to mention questionable drive and toughness.

Getting rid of Murray in the scope of this deal brings you nothing. Of all the bad deals the raps have, his is best because there are only 2 years left. JR and AW still kill you. So where does capspace come from?

I would not call West promising, yet.

And while Magloire is good he is not exactly dominant. He is a nice player, not a focal point.

And we lose our 8.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> Mash is 32, played 48 in 97/98, 24 in 98/99, 40 in 00/01 and 19 this year. Not exactly durable and he has 3 years and 30 million left. Not to mention questionable drive and toughness.


Does it matter? I thought we were trying to win later, not now. Weren't you the one that said trading Vince for another star wouldn't solve any problems? When he's healthy, Mash is a reliable point-forward who can give you 20/6/3 a night from a position that's difficult to guard. Besides, it's not like Vince is an ironman. Teams are going to recognize that when he is on the block.



> Getting rid of Murray in the scope of this deal brings you nothing. Of all the bad deals the raps have, his is best because there are only 2 years left. JR and AW still kill you. So where does capspace come from?


Murray is a throw-in. While losing his contract doesn't gain anything, it affords us picking-up Magloire and West in the deal.

The capspace comes from organizing our contracts, ala-Portland Trailblazers. By lining-up Rose, Mags & Mash's contracts to end at the same time, we free-up between $20-30M in space for the 07/08 season, rather than have Rose come off one year and Carter in the next. Plus, we still have the rights to Bosh, Magloire, West, and our future draft picks for the next few years. And it's the last year we pay for Alvin (if he isn't retired).



> I would not call West promising, yet.


:dead: 



> And while Magloire is good he is not exactly dominant. He is a nice player, not a focal point.


The same can be said about 95% of the centres in the NBA, but not many of them are Toronto-born All-Stars. Plus, having a reliable double-double player who is bulky and plays good defence is the perfect compliment to what we think Chris Bosh will become. And at around ~$7M a year! Players like that don't grow on trees.



> And we lose our 8.


This year. But you have to pay to play.

This deal could potentially be modified to include New Orleans' 18th pick coming our way, but realistically, it is appealing for them only because they are building towards the future, like we are, so losing a first-round pick probably wouldn't interest them.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

To TOR
Larry Hughes
Christian Laettner
#2(LAC)
#5(WAS)

To LAC
Vince Carter
#33(WAS)
#40(TOR)

To WAS
Corey Maggette
Melvin Ely

We could do a follow up trade like J.Moiso, #8 for Nene.

Draft Luol Deng, Shaun Livingston.

A.Williams/S.Livingston
J.Rose/L.Hughes
L.Deng
C.Bosh/D.Marshall
Nene


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> To TOR
> Larry Hughes
> Christian Laettner
> ...



deal looks nice. i rather send #2 to ATL for TERRY and #6.

then we'll get at...
5 - Andre Igoudala
6 - Andris Biedrins
8 - What ever PG is left HARRIS or GORDON

PG: Terry/Harris or Gordon/A-Dub
SG: Jalen Rose/Terry/Mason Jr.
SF: Igoudala/Murray
PF: Bosh/Marshall
C: Biedrins/Etan Thomas or Chris Mihm/Moiso

what you think? :yes:


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Toronto sends
G/F Vince Carter

LA Clippers send
C Chris Wilcox
F/G Quinton Richardson
G Eddie House

:yes:


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> 
> 
> Does it matter? I thought we were trying to win later, not now. Weren't you the one that said trading Vince for another star wouldn't solve any problems? When he's healthy, Mash is a reliable point-forward who can give you 20/6/3 a night from a position that's difficult to guard. Besides, it's not like Vince is an ironman. Teams are going to recognize that when he is on the block.


No he's not, but I would try to line up expiring deals one year earlier with LM's, and try to move Jalen in a separate deal. Charlz has mentioned JR for Penny which makes great sense. 



> Murray is a throw-in. While losing his contract doesn't gain anything, it affords us picking-up Magloire and West in the deal.
> 
> The capspace comes from organizing our contracts, ala-Portland Trailblazers. By lining-up Rose, Mags & Mash's contracts to end at the same time, we free-up between $20-30M in space for the 07/08 season, rather than have Rose come off one year and Carter in the next. Plus, we still have the rights to Bosh, Magloire, West, and our future draft picks for the next few years. And it's the last year we pay for Alvin (if he isn't retired).


Magloire should be a keeper if you are going to deal for him. If you line up contracts this late, you will have to sign your own FA's before you can add from the outside. Thus Capspace becomes moot because you never really have it.



> :dead:


What exactly indicates strong promise from West?



> The same can be said about 95% of the centres in the NBA, but not many of them are Toronto-born All-Stars. Plus, having a reliable double-double player who is bulky and plays good defence is the perfect compliment to what we think Chris Bosh will become. And at around ~$7M a year! Players like that don't grow on trees.


Don't get me wrong. I like Jamaal, a lot. But you are talking about principally trading 22 5 and 5 player for 13 and 10. 
I would prefer to acquire real youth, pick and capspace and then sign Jamaal as an FA with accumulated space. 




> This deal could potentially be modified to include New Orleans' 18th pick coming our way, but realistically, it is appealing for them only because they are building towards the future, like we are, so losing a first-round pick probably wouldn't interest them.


Forget the throw-ins

We're talking 

VC and 8

for

Magloire and West.

I am just not comfortable with that.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> To TOR
> Larry Hughes
> Christian Laettner
> ...


Wow. I don't know if Washington does it? I would if I were them. But a great deal for the raps. Both CL and LH have 1 yr left. 2 and 5!! Would have to be delayed till July b/c of Maggette.

I would flip the 2 to ATL to try and offload AW's deal for the 6 and 17/Terry. I would even do AW and 2 for the 6 and a 2nd, but shhh! don't tell them.

I love it!


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kirk_2003</b>!
> 
> deal looks nice. i rather send #2 to ATL for TERRY and #6.


:swammi: Scary!


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> No he's not, but I would try to line up expiring deals one year earlier with LM's, and try to move Jalen in a separate deal. Charlz has mentioned JR for Penny which makes great sense.


The odds of us being able to move Rose are pretty slim, IMO. And I don't think that Babcock would even be willing to trade him for Penny if all it gets us is one year closer. Rose is a much better player and when his deal is expiring, he will be worth more.



> Magloire should be a keeper if you are going to deal for him. If you line up contracts this late, you will have to sign your own FA's before you can add from the outside. Thus Capspace becomes moot because you never really have it.


Well, if Magloire and Bosh were free agents not on our team, we'd probably try to sign them if we had a lot of cap space. So I don't see what difference it makes whether they are our RFA's or just FA's. We probably wouldn't be able to do much better at either position, anyways, and will save money because they'll want to stay and we won't have to overpay to attract them to Toronto.

Let's assume Bosh commands a big deal, something like $9M a year, and Magloire wants more than he gets now, like $8M a year. With Alvin, two more first-round picks (one of the three will eventually go to Cleveland), and Dave West resigned at maybe $5M, we are still only at like $33M total. That would still allow us an estimated $17M in space to sign whoever. So we really would have space, despite resigning some of our own players.



> What exactly indicates strong promise from West?


IMO. I can't really prove that he is promising, he just is in my eyes.



> Don't get me wrong. I like Jamaal, a lot. But you are talking about principally trading 22 5 and 5 player for 13 and 10.
> I would prefer to acquire real youth, pick and capspace and then sign Jamaal as an FA with accumulated space.
> 
> Forget the throw-ins
> ...


Well, unless you think Mashburn will be on the IR for the duration of his contract in Toronto, he is more than just a throw-in.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

a little off topic, but after watching Billups tear it up during the playoffs, I was just wondering who we traded him away for. Does anyone remember?


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> 
> Let's assume Bosh commands a big deal, something like $9M a year, and Magloire wants more than he gets now, like $8M a year. With Alvin, two more first-round picks (one of the three will eventually go to Cleveland), and Dave West resigned at maybe $5M, we are still only at like $33M total. That would still allow us an estimated $17M in space to sign whoever. So we really would have space, despite resigning some of our own players.


This part of it is really not bad. It might be a little optimistic in what you can sign Bosh for but not bad.

The problem I have with the trade is this:

Here is how I break down the equasion of these players in the deal


VC 6.5
8th 3.5
LM 0.0

For 

Magloire 5.4
Mash 3.6
West 1.0

If this trade is equal, I just don't like the idea of spending this kind of value from VC and our pick on a guy whose deal ends 3 years from now, yet plays no role in a hopefully bright future.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>osman</b>!
> a little off topic, but after watching Billups tear it up during the playoffs, I was just wondering who we traded him away for. Does anyone remember?


the 5th overall which went for AD, essentially. I think there was more, but this was the biggest part.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow. I don't know if Washington does it? I would if I were them. But a great deal for the raps. Both CL and LH have 1 yr left. 2 and 5!! Would have to be delayed till July b/c of Maggette.
> ...


Yeah this trade would be extremely scary for us if it happened. I also like trading the 8th pick for a more proven centre then drafting one of the many project centres in this draft, that can turn out either way.

But I think Washington does it. I think of it like this. They keep Arenas, and Kwame, and get a missing piece to their puzzle, Maggette. I think it's a great trade for them. They don't like anyone at the 5 spot anyways.

And if we do a follow up trade of Alvin, #2 for #6, #35, or something like to that matter, it would be great. We could pick up Iguodala, and at #35 pick up someone like Jaime Lloreda who would provide toughness and rebounding.

We get rid of both Alvin's and Lamonds contracts, so we could sign someone like Jamal Crawford and Greg Ostertag , and maybe even send Rose off to NYK for Penny and a future first rounder.

Our team could look like this if we wanted to do all those trades and completely blow things up:

J.Crawford/S.Livingston
L.Hughes/A.Hardaway
A.Iguodala/D.Marshall
C.Bosh/J.Lloreda/
Nene/G.Ostertag/C.Laettner

Jamal definetly cannot play point full time, but there are a lot of guys who can handle the ball on that team (Iggy, Hughes, Penny, Shaun, Jamal.) I think Livingston could even start before the end of the first season. Gives us even more contract room next year with Laettner, Donny and Hughes coming off the books.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> To TOR
> Larry Hughes
> Christian Laettner
> ...


i like this one a lot too. no way denver does nene for the 8th thought.

one problem that keeps having to be mentioned is the clippers sending Maggette and the number two overall for Carter. i just don't see it as possible. maggette is a super value when you look at what he does and how much he's paid. i really don't think they'd do it. if they would, the deal works well for toronto, imo. 

----
re: aquiring the 2nd overall and then trading it.

dwight howard, potential franchise player. bigger, stronger, quicker, more dimensional game than chris bosh. for a team that wants to grow talent, is it better to have howard or trade his so we can unload salary? i keep waiverring on this. but isn't howard the type of talent that people take on salaries so they they can get, not use to move salaries?

not a vince trade but one for thought: marshall and 8 to washington for hughes and 6

if we were to do...
VC to LA for #2, Wilcox, and a future pick
DM+8 to WASH for Hughes+5+33

Alvin
Hughes
Rose
Bosh
Wilcox

bench: Howard, Livingston ...murray, moiso, bonner, #33--Ha Sin Jin? #40--Nate Robinson?

to me, that fits the aquire, hold, and develop talent approach

having howard, bosh and wilcox at 4/5 could give us potentially the best pivot in the league. 

hughes lets us take livingston with less worry about his ability to guard quicker PGs. Livingston's potential to do legacy stuff is just too hard to pass up


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Howard is another HS big. So far. Kwame, Curry and Chandler have all been slow to improve. KG was a freak. I don't know about Howard yet, plus, as a person, he is essentially a religous zealot and would do best in the bible belt. His people are already Lobbying ATL to trade for him. He has not refused the LAC, but rather hoping for a deal. That 6 million off the books from AW plus the 6 plus JT or 17 or 2 2nds is pretty damn good.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

how bout vince and roger mason to the celts for marcus banks, the 14, and the 25:

celts:
mason (who has shown flashes)
carter
pierce
pj ramos (24)
raef

raps:
banks/nate robinson (40)/aw
iguodala (8)/kirk snyder (14)
rose/murray
bosh/donyell marshall
moiso/al jefferson (25)

the celts get a pair of superstars that could take them to the playoffs and the raps get a young core to build around... 

raps in 3 or 4 years:
banks (or robinson)/robinson (or banks)
snyder/rose
iggy/draft pick
bosh/draft pick
jefferson/draft pick/moiso

three lotteries and guys like chris paul, luke shenscher (sp?), charlie villenueva, josh boone, jarret jack, john gilchrest, hakim warrick and a ton of high schoolers could fall into our hands with a team that may be well established in three years with such good young talent.

one


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jae05</b>!
> how bout vince and roger mason to the celts for marcus banks, the 14, and the 25:
> 
> celts:
> ...


This could only work if the Celts were way under the cap. Since they aren't, and Toronto is giving out almost $11M more in that deal than they are taking in, so the CBA wouldn't allow for that trade.

Besides, I don't think Boston is willing to trade Banks. He is a very underrated player who could be a top-5 point guard in the league some day, IMO.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> 
> 
> This could only work if the Celts were way under the cap. Since they aren't, and Toronto is giving out almost $11M more in that deal than they are taking in, so the CBA wouldn't allow for that trade.
> ...


i was kinda in a hurry so i finished it after, but wut if the celts were to throw in some overpaid cap filler (ie: walter mccarty, jumaine jones, chucky atkins, or dana barros)... just a thought. i agree that banks has some massive upside, but with the criticism danny ainge is under, wouldn't boston fans welcome a superstar who would help the team win. not enough to put them on the level of the pistons and pacers, but at least enough for fifth or sixth and a record above .500.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

How about,

To the Bulls:
Carter

To the Raptors:
Crawford 
Chandler

and who ever else to make salaries meet. Is that asking for too much?

Then with the 8th pick we selected Igoudala or Smith

PG - Crawford
SG - Igoudala
SF - Rose
PF - Bosh
C - Chandler


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>osman</b>!
> How about,
> 
> To the Bulls:
> ...


it sounds great from our point but it may be asking for way too much from chitown


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

i keep thinking that orlando may be a team that would really be interested in vinny.

not only would he and tmac dominate on the floor and in highlights, the dynamic duo would definitely increase orlando's tv revenue. and in a worse case scenario, tmac bolts with no return at the end of the season, they'd still have a local hero superstar locked up. 

*carter + williams
1st, 30th, hill, declercq + future pick(s)*

hill is the wild card. but if he cannot really play, i will assume he won't try to hurt the team and step into retirement. okafor (now measured at 6'10 with a monster reach) would lock down our post for a decade+

bosh and okafor would be the smartest 4,5 combo in the league

of course, if we could do Rose+8 for Hill+1 i'd do that first, but i question the possibility. however, getting the first overall in conjunction with having the 8th as well as the 30th and the 40th in the second round and another future pick comming our way can really help a team looking to restock talent.

it would be great to have capspace and all that but Okafor and Bosh has more value than capspace, imo.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Just curious: Tyson Chandler + Larry Hughes for Vince?

Yea or nay?


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Just curious: Tyson Chandler + Larry Hughes for Vince?
> 
> Yea or nay?


Nah


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Just curious: Tyson Chandler + Larry Hughes for Vince?
> 
> Yea or nay?


different teams... throw in the chicago and washington picks and there's something


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jae05</b>!
> i was kinda in a hurry so i finished it after, but wut if the celts were to throw in some overpaid cap filler (ie: walter mccarty, jumaine jones, chucky atkins, or dana barros)... just a thought. i agree that banks has some massive upside, but with the criticism danny ainge is under, wouldn't boston fans welcome a superstar who would help the team win. not enough to put them on the level of the pistons and pacers, but at least enough for fifth or sixth and a record above .500.


Even then, No. 15 and 20ish and a maybe for VC. I had better be alleviating the cap issues for that little value in return.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>osman</b>!
> How about,
> 
> To the Bulls:
> ...


Given that the Bulls have been shopping these guys for a year and a half, I would gather it's not asking "too much". 

I would certainly hope for better, is being kind.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

how about Carter to Utah for Kerilinko+14?

utah's far under the cap and can easilly accept carter and still be a monster in free agency.

harpring put up numbers similar to AK befor he got injured. it would allow Carter to play SG and Harpring SF (both he and AK, utah's best players are natural SFs) and draft a guy like Humphries with their 16th -- its a PF they want and need, humphries would be a great pick for them at 16.

after such a deal, utah would still only be around $20MM in assigned salaries. plenty to go after Okur for the middle and then some.

before their 23rd (i think that's their other one) and other free agents, they'd have

Arroyo
Carter
Harpring
Humphries
Okur

i love Kerilinko's game. (i'm ashamed to admit, but last summer i though something like mo+jyd was too much for him  ) AK, Bosh, 8 and 14 is a nice young core. plus we'll get a traded player exception from the carter deal.

in a crazy world we could trade the 8th and 14th and marshall and the exception to orlando for Okafor and Hill, but that's getting too far ahead of myself and into lithium territory


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Utah is more concerned about signing AK, not trading him. It is rare to find a player like AK that does so many things so well. 

I fear they would not trade him for VC straight up, let alone the 14.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

i'd love to have AK. they've been rumoured to want to move up. would this make them bite:

TO UTAH:
VINCE CARTER 04/05: $12,584,688
PICK NO.8
PICK NO.40

TO TORONTO:
PICK NO.14
PICK NO.16
PICK NO.21
ANDREI KIRILENKO 04/05: $1,671,694
TRADED PLAYER EXCEPTION: $ 10,912,994

HOOPSHYPE TORONTO SALARY 04/05: $48,671,408
TORONTO SALARY POST-TRADE 04/05: $37,758,414
PICK NO.14: $1,234,500
PICK NO.16: $1,114,100
PICK NO.21: $8,84,900
TORONTO SALARY 04/05 +ROOKIES: $40,991,914

---
edit.

maybe the third pick (#21) is too much?
VC+8 for AK+14+16?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Kirilenko and Bosh would make 2/5 of a great starting lineup.

But I don't want to give up the 8 pick in any trade involving VC. We want extra picks, without giving up our 8 pick.

For instance Charlotte takes Skinner in the expansion draft and gives Skinner plus the 4 pick to Toronto in exchange for VC. If they take AW and Murray too maybe we throw in the 8 pick. That would free up tons of cash.

VC to the Clips for Maggette and the 2 pick would be awesome as well. Cap relief, the 2 pick, and a great SF who gets to the line.

But we MUST hold onto that 8 pick in any trade with VC. Some team will step up and pay a big price for him. Kobe can only go to one team and the other 6 or 7 teams may see Vince as the next best thing.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

the universe is telling me that orlando is going to pick dwight howard. i would definitely do carter for okafor. maggette would be gravy. 

the boshafor monster would be the smartest post in the league.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> Kirilenko and Bosh would make 2/5 of a great starting lineup.
> 
> But I don't want to give up the 8 pick in any trade involving VC. We want extra picks, without giving up our 8 pick.
> ...


:swammi: 

We should not have to give up the 8, unless there is a Massive, Massive deal, with several teams that sees multiple lottery picks and youth coming here.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

i guess i'm all alone now on the "do not trade carter" side.

:sigh:


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> i guess i'm all alone now on the "do not trade carter" side.
> 
> :sigh:


No I'm with you

Don't trade vince


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## raptorsrule15 (Jul 4, 2003)

Tor / Lakers / and ____ ?

I don't think their is much chance that Kobe returns to the Lakers, so LA would probably want someone in return for him.

If I were Babcock I would trade Vince and one of our horrible contracts to LA for Kobe, and then trade KOBE BECAUSE HE WOULDN'T WANT TO PLAY IN T.O.....or maybe work out a 3 way!

MAYBE
LA GETS: Vince + (ROSE, MURRAY, OR ALVIN)
SUNS GETS: KOBE + fillers + picks
TOR GETS: Joe Johnson and MARION...MARION and 7th...or JJ and 7th

OR
LA GETS: Vince + (ROSE, MURRAY, OR ALVIN)
CLIPS GETS: KOBE + fillers + picks
TOR GETS: MAGGETTE and 2nd

-Only if Vince doesn't wanna stay though!!!


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i personally think this is the weakest draft in years. to move down would be almost inexcusable, because while i'm sure there are diamonds in the rough to be found, you don't predict who they're going to be- that's why they're diamonds in the rough. nobody knows who they are. 

the # 8 is very important to us, for many reasons, not the least of which is that it might actually give us a player with whom we can grow as a franchise. moving vince *and* the 8 is practically a non-starter for me, especially for 3 first round picks. in my opinion, utah is almost surely going to want to trade at least one of them (or package them) to an unsuspecting partner, because in such a watered-down draft, i don't think the jazz want to be on the hook for 3 more 1st-round contracts lasting for the next 4/5 years. 

i just don't want those picks because i don't want those contracts. the 8 is more valuable because there may actually be (there probably are) 8 strong players to come out of this talent pool, but grabbing at the 13, 16 and 21 is grabbing at a problem (imo). how did the celtics feel about their first-rounders last year? 

i bet they wished they didn't have their guaranteed contracts, that's for sure.

(but i like kirilenko.)

peace


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

I don't totally disagree with you, about the draft. However, I think the watered down portion is at the top of the draft. I think there will be several solid players that come from 10 to 17. 

Only time will tell.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

there's a rumour floating involving carter and the clippers

this is it:
Carter and 8
for
Maggette, Jaric, Drobnjak, and 2

it doesn't wow me. jaric and drobnjak are unspecacular and, imo, easilly replaceable with FAs at their respective salaries. maggette is a good player but not vince carter good. the second pick is the gem but we lose the 8th and a year-in-year-out first team allstar getting it

there must be better deals available. i would also prefer to hold on to our pick in a deal moving carter unless we're receiveing a franchise player (AK is, imo, a franchise player)

is it not impossible to believe that chicago could see carter as a very valuable piece with hinrick and curry?

i will hate to see carter eat us alive in the east but i would favour this suggestion with chicago over the rumoured clippers' deal:

Chandler, E-Rob, and the 3rd
for
Carter
and we keep our pick

what does your math say?

+maggette, jaric, drobnjak, howard
-carter, gordon
= X

+chandler, robinson, deng
-carter
= Y

which has more value to toronto? X or Y?


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spuriousjones</b>!
> there's a rumour floating involving carter and the clippers
> 
> this is it:
> ...


This is a great Trade for me with this I can see Vince all yr.  

but for the Raptors is not that great


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

For a guy that people claim he has lost it, there sure is a lot of people on here who are willing to trade for him


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Raptors Receive:* Corey Maggette, Marko Jaric, Peja Drobnjak, Alan Henderson, Chris Crawford, 6th, 17th.
*Clippers Receive:* Vince Carter, 8th.
*Hawks Receive:* Alvin Williams, Donyell Marshall, 2nd.

*Raptors Draft:* Ben Gordon (6th), PJ Ramos (17th), Jamie Lloreda (40th).

*Raptors Sign:* Adonal Foyle, Eric Williams, Morris Peterson, Roger Mason, Jr.

*Raptors Waive:* Milt Palacio, Chris Crawford.


Ben Gordon/Marko Jaric
Jalen Rose/Morris Peterson
Corey Maggette/Eric Williams/Lamond Murray
Chris Bosh/Jaime Lloreda
Adonal Foyle/Peja Drobnjak/Peter John Ramos

IR: Alan Henderson, Jerome Mosio, Roger Mason, Jr.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

alvin, marhsall and the second overall pick for henderson, crawford, 6 and 17? no thank-you


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> *Raptors Sign:* Adonal Foyle, Eric Williams, Morris Peterson, Roger Mason, Jr.


I do everything but this. Unless they take 2 year deals. Not that ATL will.


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## rocketman04 (May 25, 2004)

your likely to be over the cap
youd have to sign and trade for foyle


take away the hawks 6th pick from the equation and then youd have to ask yourselfs why would the hawks dump their bad contracts to pickup alvin williams?

you want a point guard

trade for andre miller


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> I do everything but this. Unless they take 2 year deals. Not that ATL will.


Foyle would probably want longer than 2 years, but Williams, Peterson, and Mason could probably be convinced.

And taking Alvin's contract is balanced by taking Marshall's expiring deal and getting Dwight. I don't think that is too unfair to them at all.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketman04</b>!
> your likely to be over the cap
> youd have to sign and trade for foyle
> 
> ...


The Foyle & Williams signings are with the MLE.

Peterson and Mason's wouldn't be MLE signings, but we're over the cap anyways, so another couple of million here and there isn't going to make much difference.

The Hawks take Alvin but get Marshall and Dwight Howard. They have enough cap space and desire for Howard to eat Alvin's contract and wait for him to retire.


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## rocketman04 (May 25, 2004)

very questionable that a team so far under the cap would want to add williams and his contract

before i would even consider taking him on
id try other trades that excluded the raptors


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

to Washington
Vince Carter
Donyell Marshall

to Toronto
Jerry Stackhouse
Kwame Brown
Larry Hughes
pick no.5


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

^i dont really see washington going for that one^


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketman04</b>!
> your likely to be over the cap
> youd have to sign and trade for foyle
> 
> ...


:laugh: 

Brother...go back to the nugz board.:laugh:


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