# No Hope - This team is TRASH



## firstrounder (Oct 31, 2004)

-Hedo was one of the worst signings I've ever seen. We are way better when he is not on the floor. 

-Bosh getting max dollars, but he is not good enough to carry a contending team. He is not an upper echelon player aka Kobe, Wade, Anthony, Lebron, yet he wants to be paid like them, and he wants to be "the man". 

-No cap room for next season, and almost all of our money is tied into long term deals, save for Bosh. 

-A Eurotrash centre who can hit an occasional three pointer is signed for the next 5 years. Couple him with Turkoglu and you have a couple of career 12 ppg players getting 100+ million over the nex 5 years combined. WASTE

-Calderon plays defense like he should have been a matador instead

-Derozan looks like a decent 3rd option maybe, but shows no potential of ever becoming a star

Add it all up and you have a hopeless next 5 years ahead of us at least. Start the rebuild over again. Get rid of Collangelo, and try and package Turk and/or Bargs with whoever you have to to get rid of his contract. Stink up the joint for the next 3 years and try and get another VC. We've had this team now for 15 years, and we've been a pretty big embarassment for the most part.


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## Raptor (Feb 26, 2004)

Most of the team who won championship, they all have star SG or SF, and they build the team around these position like: Magic Johnson, Mike Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, even VC team (in the past few year with raptors)...because SG/SF they are fast to break down defend so that they can carry the team.
With Raptors are building around PF - Chris Bosh - like Spur build around Duncan and Minesota build around KG, I don't think it's working out. We need go with another direction, either bring some star SF/SF to help Bosh or trade Bosh for another star guard.
I hope you guy understand what i am talking about - English is my second language.
Thanks


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## a_i_4_life (Dec 24, 2004)

Turkoglu is turning into VC. He doesn't care about the team, he jokes on the court like carter did, he moves like a 50 year old, carries the ball everytime. There's no hope for this team.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I don't know how we are going to get rid of Turk/Calderon, those 2 contracts are going to kill us. Bargnani while is deserving of the bust label by now has a manageable contract for his age.

Knowing Colangelo, he might package next year's pick (2011) just to get rid of Turk or Calderon. What a disaster. I'm going to hang around until the end of the summer to see how Colangelo handles Bosh and the rest of the roster (if he isn't fired that is). Unless BC does something miraculous, that might be it for me as a Raptor fan at least until all the Euros are gone.

If Bosh does leave I can see our team being the Indiana Pacers for the next 3-4 years. They spent all their money on guys like Troy Murphy, Dunleevy, Tinsley, kind of like how we spent our money on Bargs/Turk/Calderon. The only difference is they have a young stud in Danny Granger while we have I-like-to-jump DeRozan. If Bosh does leave I hope that BC either lets him walk without S&T or only take back picks/expiring contracts. There is no point getting any player in return when we have such a rotten core. Just let this mess deteriorate and it will sort itself out in about 4 years.

The sad thing is I think all our current players will be decent role players on good teams. However together they form one hell of a frustrating team to cheer for.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

Heh, BC doesnt have daddy to watch over him and now we get this mess in Toronto. 

Raps are screwed, there is no better way to say it than that.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

I can't say the team is screwed, are we in danger of sinking, yes, but we have the ability to right the ship.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

billfindlay10 said:


> I can't say the team is screwed, are we in danger of sinking, yes, but we have the ability to right the ship.


That the way I feel , people are overreacting a bit


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Mr_B said:


> That the way I feel , people are overreacting a bit


I guess it depends what your expectations are. Barely hanging on to .500 record and only being in the 8 spot by default, with all the other East teams horribly sucking is not exactly a success.

And its not like we had much of a shot to beat any of the top 4 teams. They are all much more solid and consistent, especially on D and on the road.

Will MLSE pay tax to keep this kind of mediocre team together? Not likely.

Will Bosh want to stay with this sad sack group? Not likely.

Will we get great value in return for Bosh? Not likely.

This season has been a complete failure by any measure. I don't know how anyone can argue that point.

Sonny and DeMar have been pleasant surprises. As have Jack and Amir. Turk was a big mistake that should have been corrected by Christmas it was so obviously a bad fit. Bargs has been frustrating as hell and just doesn't have the fire inside.

This summer is probably the start of a rebuild.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

If I look at the team as just this season, sure i am disappointed but I can still look to the future and see some hope.
If Bosh stays or goes I am not throwing in the towel. Hedo has not been a good fit and may be hard to move, but we have seen teams get out from under players contracts like this in the pas t and succeed. Just look at the team we played last night, the Bobcats take on Stepehn Jackson and are now in the playoffs. They still need to tweak the roster, but they are improved and building interest in the team again. 

There are players on teams that earn 10 mil a year that are falling out of favor with their current team, GM's are will to move them just to fix the locker room. Ben Gordon, Marvin Williams, Andres Nocioni, and Lual Deng are a few players in this range that could be moved.

Ideally I would like to see us get to the 7th seed and make it a 7 game series or steal the win, if it does not happen I will still be a fan and pay close attention to what we do in the offseason.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

Thing with Hedo is that since being in Toronto, hes now only shown himself to be just average on the court (that the 2009 playoff run was an anomaly) but now hes shown to be somewhat of a locker room distraction with his partying and whatnot. It makes him a little harder to move because of that and he probably doesnt get moved within the next two years because of the length. 

Going forward, we're looking at a core that consists of Hedo-Bargnani-Calderon. Can you not say soft? Its tough to stay optimistic as a fan when youre looking at that core heading into the future; when youve laid all your eggs into this year's playoff basket only to realize that theres a big hole in the bottom. AND Bosh, the face of the franchise, is probably leaving for greener pastures. Bargnani better be ready to become the face of the franchise because he'll be thrust into the role whether he likes it or not. 

Tough to be optimistic with the future of the franchise...


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

It will probably be a tough 2-3 years to watch but I have been happy with DD's rookie year and we essentially got another rookie wing in Weems as well. Will Bargs develop without CB here, like CB did without VC? Amir still has upside too.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

When Bosh was out for those 5 games Bargnani's play actually got worse. Right now Barg relies a lot on Bosh attracting attention. Bargs cannot create for himself and once teams actually start guarding him it will be even more difficult for him to score.

At this point I'm actually hoping that Bosh does leave so that we can get the rebuild plan rolling now rather than dragging it on for another few years. It would be hard to move Calderon and close to impossible to move Hedo.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Andrea did struggle with Bosh out, mainly due to the fact that we did not have another true scoring threat. 

Jose, Andrea, and Turk are locked up and could called soft, but we have Jack and DeRozan and what I would think will be a re-signed Weems, Amir, and Wright to strengthen the team. We have Reggie Evans and Marcus Banks as some solid expiring contracts for next season that could be packages with one of Jose or Hedo to get a player of value in return. All is not lost, it may not be the greatest situation, but we have a decent future.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

I think Jose gone after this season his contract not that difficult to move and there a report out that Barg been playing with a slightly torn alkalies since Jan that will need surgery after the season. As far as the team goes the roster very unbalanced Amazing offense but just a mess on defense BC should make a few moves to get tougher defensively can't begin to count how many games were lost due to poor defense mainly interior defense tired of seeing PG waltz right into the paint and creating points


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Moving Jose would be great get rid of his contract and get a PG that play's D or knows how to.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

while this season has been painful, it didn't exactly start here for me. frankly, i've been expecting this for at least three years- and i've been in pain for three years as a result. i used to be among the most optimistic of raptor fans but honestly, this here has been horrendous. i'm just watching the culture around this team and it's intolerable for me. maybe i'm not the most objective of observers anymore, but i'm adamant that this began with sam mitchell. it seems ridiculous for me to make that point _today_ but i can hardly think back to 2007 without punching a wall or something.  we won the division handily, and celebrated like no other achievement in franchise history- and yet we got bounced from the playoffs (without much resistance) *by one of our division rivals* and still justified it by saying they were the better team. (if they were, how did we win the division? and why did we even bother.... screw it.)

even thinking back to it today makes me want to puke. to me, that's not leadership; that is the essence- if not the birth- of complacency. and as we all know, complacency is the biggest killer of championship prospects- maybe the only one? seeing chris bosh, jose calderon and anthony parker and other impressionable souls nod their heads in agreement with sam was, to me, maybe the first travesty- the effects of which can honestly still be seen today. this is the standard now: small victories are enough. when that becomes acceptable, how are you going to raise the bar? 

you _could_ acquire jermaine o'neal.

you could trade him for shawn marion.

you could package _him_ for hedo turkoglu. 

or you could fire the coach.

and hire a brand-new staff.

you could do any _number_ of things but when it comes down to it, that cultural defect is so palpable that it doesn't matter what you do- it simply won't be enough. you'll be running in circles regardless. you won't know how to take the next step because you've already established that the next step is not as important to you as it is to other teams.

think about how raptors apologists are justifying this season: charlotte has improved with youth; milwaukee has brandon jennings; miami is on the rebound and wade is among the biggest stars in the league; chicago is young and dynamic and finding a way. think about last year: philadelphia has improved; atlanta is finally getting some return from their trips to the lotto; new orleans is riding chris paul; denver has found good chemistry by dealing iverson; houston is using adelman's lessons to full benefit.

i mean, somehow these are *valid excuses for teams passing the raptors in the standings.* but it's fans like us who are saying, "nothing there is 'valid', people! when are the _raptors_ going to improve? when are the _raptors_ going to become important like these other kids? when are the _raptors_ going to turn the corner? i'm not sure you know but we can't turn the corner unless we turn the corner! ok, milwaukee's riding brandon jennings, the italian pro- so why is it taking five years for our 7 ft'er with even more euro pro experience to get adjusted to the nba game? and why are we letting him off the hook without lighting a fire under his ass?"

until those questions get asked in the raptors locker room this'll never end, i reckon. we sowed our seed for complacency well before smitch was even let go. i'd say this now is five years in the making. i remember a road trip out west in late 2007- just after tj got knocked out in atlanta- where people/fans/media were justifying their horrendous performances on a nightly basis by saying "west coast trips are tough"- irrespective of the fact that these teams had worse records than the raptors at the time, and whether they did or they didn't was irrelevant, there's just no justifying blowouts at any level if you consider yourself nearly as competitive as the raptors did... and the raptors _were_ getting blown out, bullied, pushed around... pretty much the same dynamic killing the team today, imo. it's no coincidence to me that it's still there- we learned how to justify our inferiority complex long ago, ironically when we were "most successful".

make no mistake though, guys- the raps will make the playoffs. i'd even go so far as to say that chris'll probably re-sign, in light of some brighter future that may again fool him after the raptors take the cavs or whoever to five/six games in the first round. but before you breathe a sigh of relief, think about it: we have chris _today_, with more cap room or flexibility than we'll have later, and look how things are playing out. does it really make sense to look forward to next year (again)? 

i'll be honest: the only hope i have for this team's future is embodied by a young man named demar derozan. i'm not saying he's great, i'm not even saying he's good- i'm just saying he's the only hope. and i don't know if the team's straights have _ever_ been so dire.

peace


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## TheVincanity (Sep 27, 2009)

Raptor said:


> Most of the team who won championship, they all have star SG or SF, and they build the team around these position like: Magic Johnson, Mike Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, even VC team (in the past few year with raptors)...because SG/SF they are fast to break down defend so that they can carry the team.
> With Raptors are building around PF - Chris Bosh - like Spur build around Duncan and Minesota build around KG, I don't think it's working out. We need go with another direction, either bring some star SF/SF to help Bosh or trade Bosh for another star guard.
> I hope you guy understand what i am talking about - English is my second language.
> Thanks



Magic is a PG, and most championship teams have had a great PG, but in the playoffs the SG has the most importance. 
PFs are generally not good to build around, there are of course execptions like Bill Russell, Bird in a few games. Saying that Duncan is not a playor to build around is stupid, 4 rings man.
good opinion but check your facts


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Kobe and Wade both had Shaq. Magic had Kareem. Great guards usually need great big men, and great big men usually need great guards. Of course there's always the few exceptions, but generally, that's the pattern.

Btw, cant say I didnt warn you about Hedo. Even our GM tried to told you.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

The Hedo signing was always pathetically stupid. The only suprising aspect of that deal is that some people have taken this long to see how ridiculous it was.

This team has no future unless Bosh leaves. They've completely handicapped themselves so badly that the only way up is through the lottery. Bosh makes the too good to get a top pick, and not good enough to win anything important. It's one of the more incompetent GM jobs I've ever seen that didn't involve Kevin McHale.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Sliccat said:


> It's one of the more incompetent GM jobs I've ever seen *that didn't involve Kevin McHale.*


:laugh:


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

Sliccat said:


> The Hedo signing was always pathetically stupid. The only suprising aspect of that deal is that some people have taken this long to see how ridiculous it was.
> 
> This team has no future unless Bosh leaves. They've completely handicapped themselves so badly that the only way up is through the lottery. Bosh makes the too good to get a top pick, and not good enough to win anything important. It's one of the more incompetent GM jobs I've ever seen that didn't involve Kevin McHale.


And remember a few years back when people were riding on BC's coat tails as if god was there to save the Raptors. I was skeptical about Colangelo even when he was first signed simply because I wanted to see how this team is going to be like a few years down the line when he`s at the helm. Now look what we got here. Turk signing, having no big man presence at all, Euro ball, etc. It's just a mess, especially after seeing this team today without Bosh.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I understand the need to dump Hedo's contract. I am still confused why anyone (not just TOR, but also POR) wanted this guy for so much $$.

Speaking from a Bulls fan perspective that made a colossally bad signing a few years ago (Ben Wallace), I can say your best hope for dumping bad contracts is to find other bad contracts that fit a little better.

Things don't get corrected in 1 fell swoop, it often takes several additional moves. In the Bulls case it was:

a) Trade Ben Wallace (bad contract) for Larry Hughes & Drew Gooden (also bad contracts, but better fits for both teams)

b) Play with Hughes/Gooden for a while, then trade them away for other bad (but not AS bad) contracts, in our case it was Tim Thomas and Jerome James

c) Buy out Tim Thomas, let Jerome James sit on bench

d) Meanwhile, let the team play through a bad season, let the young guys (Derozen, Weems in your case) develop and grab a lotto pick; 

e) Make a smart draft pick

Before you know it, you have multiple young players, those bad contracts expire, and things are looking up a bit.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

I dont mind Hedo so much, what I do mind is the fact that there are just too many players on this team whose strength lies in them having the basketball in their hands. Jack, Calderon, Hedo, even Bargnani and Bosh. Theyre at their best scoring, when they can create and use mismatches on offense, when they have the ball in their hands. Last time I checked, the game is only played with one ball. Like I'd prefer to keep Hedo and keep him on as the primary ball handler while Jack stays at the 1 since hes a great defender - get rid of Calderon because he has no role on the squad. 

On top of that, you look at that core, only Jack can be considered a competent defender at his position. All the other guys are suspect at times. Triano can preach defense all he wants, but at the end of the day you still need to find guys in this league who understand that their role on the team is to eat up space inside, defend, rebound, give up 6 fouls. Raps have those characters, but theyre being held back by this notion that putting 5 good offensive players on the court at the same time translates to winning basketball. 

Newsflash: its all good if you can score 100 a night, but if youre giving up 110 a night, youre not winning.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

back and forth we go. magic number down to two. 

peace


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

So far the magic dice have been right on. ONE win. Will it be enough to get the Raps in and let BC claim some type of cheap 'victory' and claim that it was somehow a positive year.

I don't see how we lose to the Knicks at home Wednesday, but I believe in the DICE.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> I don't see how we lose to the Knicks at home Wednesday, but I believe in the DICE.


i was thinking about that myself (not the dice). i think the bulls may very well lose at charlotte, but i could definitely see the raps also losing vs new york. it's like a monty python movie. 

i just hope to see some good energy on the floor tonight. just play your hearts out. if you lose, you've got six months to think about it. you'd be surprised how far passion and energy can take you, even at the professional level- maybe _especially_ there.

peace


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Chicago will be playing a tough team on the back end of a back to back.....the odds may be in our favor, but the Bulls are starting to get it together (New Jersey loss aside)

I am not sure if I want the 11th pick more or if I want playoffs!


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

billfindlay10 said:


> Chicago will be playing a tough team on the back end of a back to back.....the odds may be in our favor, but the Bulls are starting to get it together (New Jersey loss aside)
> 
> I am not sure if I want the 11th pick more or if I want playoffs!


you want the playoffs! you want the playoffs, my man, and there's no question. 

peace


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

We're stuck with this team for now.

Nobody is taking on Bargnani, Turkoglu, or Calderon. Bosh is probably going to stay and eat up 30% of our cap. It is minor changes this summer and a lot of talk about internal improvements. O'Bryant, Nesterovic, and other bit players will be gone. Triano will stay, as will BC.

The whole team isn't bad, though. I think Weems has been sensational. Johnson and Wright have both had good seasons as well as Jack. Kind of bad to prefer the second unit to the first but that's where we're at.

The lotto pick won't help for a while so I guess we're set up for another season like this one next year.

To think 50 wins is the bare minimum in the West for a playoff team. We were fortunate to even be in the hunt.


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