# Danny Ainge Off-season plan.



## jayk009

Here are a few scenarios that I came up with.

Here are the assumptions:

1. Re-sign Big Baby to a 3 year deal with an average salary of 3.5 mill/ year, resign Powe to a minimum deal).
2. Eddie House will exercise his player option, or re-negotiate a contract with him for the same average salary but an extra year. 
3. Sign veteran backup pg for the minimum. (Anthony Johnson/Anthony Carter/Marbury/other FA/trade?) 


Scenario 1. 


1. Sign Rasheed Wallace to a full-mle deal for 2 years. 
2. Sign Ime Udoka to a 2 year minimum deal. 


Scenario 2. 


1. Sign Anthony Parker to a partial mle deal for 2 years. 
2. Sign Joe Smith/Antonio Mcdyess to a minimum/LLE/partial MLE deal. 


Scenario 3. 

1. Sign Matt Barnes to partial MLE, 
2. Sign Joe Smith/Antonio Mcdyess to a minimum/LLE/partial MLE deal. 

Scenario 4. (unlikely due to Nocioni length of contract)

1. Trade Brian Scalabrine/Tony Allen/JR Giddens for Andres Nocioni.
2. Sign Rasheed Wallace to a 2 year full MLE deal. 


Scenario 5. 

1. Trade Brian Scalabrine/Tony Allen + first round pick for Raja Bell.
2. Sign Rasheed Wallace to a 2 year full MLE deal 


Scenario 6. 

1. Sign Rashad Mcants to a portion of the MLE. 
2. Sign Joe Smith/Antonio Mcdyess to a minimum/LLE/partial MLE deal. 

Scenario 7. (unlikely, I just miss Posey)

1. Trade Brian Scalabrine/Tony Allen/JR Giddens for James Posey and future first.
2. Sign Joe Smith/Antonio Mcdyess to a minimum/LLE/partial MLE deal. 

Other players that Ainge will look to sign with part of MLE or the LLE(assuming Rasheed is not signed):
Chris Andersen(likely resign with Denver), Zaza Pachulia, Jason Collins(don't laugh), 



And also, these scenarios are assuming Rasheed Wallace is willing to accept the MLE to play with the celtics. If he is, then there is no question that they will sign him. (looking less and less likely)



realistic player's to target using expirings(Scal, TA):

Jared Jefferies, CJ Miles, Deshawn Stevenson, James Posey, Charlie Bell, Damien Wilkins, Ryan Gomes, 

possible but highly unlikely targets due to size and/or length of contract: 

Corey Magette, Andres Nocioni, Francisco Garcia, 

Players likely to be waived/bought out: 

Jerry Stackhouse, Sasha Pavlovic, Bruce Bowen, Fabricio Oberto, Greg Buckner, Ben Wallace, 

Players to consider who didn't play last season:

Jason Williams
Bonzi Wells 

UFA: 

Marquis Daniels, Joey Graham, Ime Udoka, Desmond Mason, Walter Hermann, Keith Bogans

Players ignored: Any RFA, Gerald Green, Rodney Carney, Wally,


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## Avalanche

Id like to see Sheed here, and i want to keep Marbury around.. if we could somehow split the MLE between them that would be ideal IMO.

Udoka is a solid option with the minimum, however Walker will likely take over more minutes next season and they will of course leave the options open for buy outs again


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## Avalanche

oh and the one thing i do agree on is mccants, i think he could be a great option off the bench for a contender... i just dont think it will happen here

he and kg are very tight though, he'd come cheap


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## Chan Ho Nam

anthony parker full MLE? u serious?


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## jayk009

chairman5 said:


> anthony parker full MLE? u serious?



Yeah you're right, I don't know what I was thinking, actually I was thinking about an Anthony Parker from 2 years ago but he has really looked old this season...


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## CelticsPride1999

All your options are interesting but i cant see any of them happening. You guys really wanna see Sheed in Boston? what role would he play? He wont come off the bench and i cant see us moving Perk to the bench. 

The good news out of a bad situation is we will now be able to resign Powe Cheap. Baby is Restricted and the way he has played in the playoffs we need him. Resign Baby bring in a couple of Vet Minimum guys and look towards 2010 when Ray Allen is a FA and we could be a player in the FA Market


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## Avalanche

We wont be a player in free agency, we would barely have any space plus rondo needs to be re-signed unfortunately, the only way to get value and lose Ray is to trade him as an expiring, though unless its an upset superstar wanting out i cant see us getting equal value or close to

I think at this point, Sheed would be happy somewhere he can win and enjoy his time with people he likes, hes obviously given up on Detroit but getting him here with KG and co could do wonders, and i actually think he would come off the bench
The only thing in our way is other teams, especially San Antonio getting to him first

Another thought, is with teams being hit hard in the wallet, some MLE signings are starting to look like bad ideas as they are not the missing link between a team and the championship... I think Shopping around Scal + TA/Giddens/Pruitt/House in the off-season would be a good idea to really guage what teams are willing to do to save some bucks

Also... if marburys play doesnt lift no one is going to be throwing much money his way, which is good news for us IMO, i think if we can re-sign him cheap and give him a full training camp with the team he could be very helpful next season


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## cgcatsfan

CelticsPride1999 said:


> All your options are interesting but i cant see any of them happening. You guys really wanna see Sheed in Boston? what role would he play? He wont come off the bench and i cant see us moving Perk to the bench.
> 
> The good news out of a bad situation is we will now be able to resign Powe Cheap. Baby is Restricted and the way he has played in the playoffs we need him. Resign Baby bring in a couple of Vet Minimum guys and look towards 2010 when Ray Allen is a FA and we could be a player in the FA Market


Yep. And for what it's worth, I couldn't care less about Marbury. Hated that we signed him. 
We need to keep Big Baby. He has really stepped up. I'd like to keep Powe for that matter. 
It would be great to get Wallace.


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## E.H. Munro

CelticsPride1999 said:


> All your options are interesting but i cant see any of them happening. You guys really wanna see Sheed in Boston? what role would he play? He wont come off the bench and i cant see us moving Perk to the bench.
> 
> The good news out of a bad situation is we will now be able to resign Powe Cheap. Baby is Restricted and the way he has played in the playoffs we need him. Resign Baby bring in a couple of Vet Minimum guys and look towards 2010 when Ray Allen is a FA and we could be a player in the FA Market


If they do nothing next year is their swan song. As for Powe, he won't be ready to get back on the court till December, coming off major reconstructive surgery to the knee he won't be giving us much next year. The last thing I want to see is Mikki Moore suiting up for the Celtics again. _Ever_ again. They need a _good_ vet taller than 6'9". Please don't respond "Scalabrine". Right now 'Sheed is the best option.


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## Floods

I'd rather Joe Smith than Rasheed Wallace. Sheed is not the kind of player I want on this team... he's careless, he doesn't play the game at 100% or close to it, and gets pouty when things don't go his way. No thank you. Joe Smith is much more low-key and much better suited to a bench role.

We shouldn't sign people just to sign people. Consider all the options.


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## E.H. Munro

Joe Smith isn't going to be leaving Cleveland. Boston still needs a guy taller than 6'9" that can space the floor, defend the post, and play help defense. There aren't a lot of guys that fit that mold. 'Sheed is one of them.


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## mrsister

I wish we had gotten Chris Anderson instead of Mikki Moore. That guy is helping out Denver a lot. I think the Bulls series would be over if we had him because he would've helped keep people out of the paint. Moore is not a good interior defender.


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## E.H. Munro

Yeah, signing Birdman earlier would have been a lifesaver. As it is without Garnett they've run Pierce into the ground to stay competitive. Birdman, at least, would have kept the defense humming at a high level without Pierce having to kill himself.


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## sologigolos

grant hill anyone? sure, he doesn't solve our backup PG or bigmen problems, but i'd love to see it happen. just b.c it's grant hill. i don't know how much he'd contribute.


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## Floods

mrsister said:


> I wish we had gotten Chris Anderson instead of Mikki Moore. That guy is helping out Denver a lot. I think the Bulls series would be over if we had him because he would've helped keep people out of the paint. Moore is not a good interior defender.


_____ >>> Mikki Moore.


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## Floods

sologigolos said:


> grant hill anyone? sure, he doesn't solve our backup PG or bigmen problems, but i'd love to see it happen. just b.c it's grant hill. i don't know how much he'd contribute.


No thanks.


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## Avalanche

Hill at the minimum would be fine for some wing depth, but we need to find a bench in the off-season and especially some size


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## E.H. Munro

We actually have a bench, unfortunately due to all the injuries they're in the starting lineup. :bsmile:

They really need size this offseason. They must feed the need for 'Sheed.


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## Avalanche

keep marbury (he hasnt been good, but with a training camp hes better than any alternative), pick up a wing man for the vet min (hill, udoka, barnes etc) .. and yeah, most definately fill the need for sheed

if artest wants out of houston and is willing to accept the MLE though... that changes everything (though not likely in the slightest now they have made the second round)


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## Floods

Avalanche said:


> Hill at the minimum would be fine for some wing depth, but we need to find a bench in the off-season and especially some size


Actually we might end up in the market for some wing depth, because I doubt Tony Allen is back. Desmond Mason might be option, he basically duplicates Allen's skill set and is about 10 times smarter than Allen. Only problem is, he might be an injury risk.

I'd also like to sign Brandon Bass. He's a tough player down low, and you can never have too much of that. On the PG front there isn't much out there that we can realistically get (Kevin Ollie and Damon Jones basically), so I guess House will be back for another season.


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## Avalanche

House should be kept, as long as its in a limited minute, 2 guard role... not a point

Still remains to be seen with TA, Danny will probably see whats available before deciding whether to keep him or not

Bass wont be going anywhere though


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## sologigolos

whats going on with Giddens? Is he gonna stick around/see any time anytime soon? It's not like he came out as a freshman and has tons of untapped potential.

And House, per se, is not necessary--just need a dude who can stick the threes.


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## E.H. Munro

Maybe they can talk ATL into a sign & trade for the Minister of Interstellar Grooviness (aka Josh Childress)? That would address the wing depth problem. Alternatively they could put together a package for Josh Smith if the Hawks are serious about getting him out of their clubhouse. He'd be the perfect swing forward. And Garnett might be able to beat some sense into Josie.


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## Floods

Avalanche said:


> House should be kept, as long as its in a limited minute, 2 guard role... not a point
> 
> Still remains to be seen with TA, Danny will probably see whats available before deciding whether to keep him or not
> 
> Bass wont be going anywhere though


TA is dumb as a brick. He needs to be gone.


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## sologigolos

ehmunro said:


> Maybe they can talk ATL into a sign & trade for the Minister of Interstellar Grooviness (aka Josh Childress)? That would address the wing depth problem. Alternatively they could put together a package for Josh Smith if the Hawks are serious about getting him out of their clubhouse. He'd be the perfect swing forward. And Garnett might be able to beat some sense into Josie.


i would love childress, but how would the salaries work out? childress i'm guessing will start, at least, at 6 mil a year. 

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm

these are our salaries. scal + TA + giddens might work. Perhaps a resigned Baby. i'm guessing ATL would want a first rounder out of it as well.

As for Josh Smith--10 mil is a lot to pay a bench swing forward, nor do I think he would accept such a role.


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## Bogg

With Nelson looking like he's ready to dump Jamal Crawford on the first bidder, we may want to put together a package of expirings to ship to GS. Crawford gives us an explosive scorer off the bench, and trading for him leaves us our full MLE to spend how we see fit in order to find some frontcourt depth in free agency. I'd much prefer to pry Stephen Jackson(a rich man's Posey) away from Golden State, but Crawford looks to be much more available right now.


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## E.H. Munro

Welcome to BBF, Bogg. I hope you enjoy our little corner of hell. Be sure to visit the playoff board for more madness and hilarity. Crawford is a good one to keep an eye on. My personal wet dreams are Boston's backcourt for CP3, David West, and Posey, and Boston's backcourt, JR Giddens & Billy Walker for Miami's backcourt & Udonis Haslem. :bsmile:


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## Bogg

Thanks, your handle's gonna take some getting used to here. Wade surely isn't going anywhere, but if you took out West from the NO deal and subbed in Chandler or (especially) Peja that deal might not be completely far-fetched. It all depends on if the Hornets ownership is THAT serious about cutting payroll. West has a very favorable contract and I doubt that ownership would want to ship out both their all-stars in a single deal.


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## jayk009

Bogg said:


> With Nelson looking like he's ready to dump Jamal Crawford on the first bidder, we may want to put together a package of expirings to ship to GS. Crawford gives us an explosive scorer off the bench, and trading for him leaves us our full MLE to spend how we see fit in order to find some frontcourt depth in free agency. I'd much prefer to pry Stephen Jackson(a rich man's Posey) away from Golden State, but Crawford looks to be much more available right now.



Crawford is basically impossible to trade for at this point. Theres no combination of players that can match his salary,unless we trade one of our "untradeables" but that will hurt our team more then it will help(and yes Perkins is untradeable,) unless Jamal Crawford were to opt out of his contract and sign a MLE deal with us, this is almost impossible.


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## Avalanche

yeah we have some flexibility but not to that extent...


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## jayk009

ehmunro said:


> Maybe they can talk ATL into a sign & trade for the Minister of Interstellar Grooviness (aka Josh Childress)? That would address the wing depth problem. Alternatively they could put together a package for Josh Smith if the Hawks are serious about getting him out of their clubhouse. He'd be the perfect swing forward. And Garnett might be able to beat some sense into Josie.



I looked into the possiblity of Josh Childress when making this thread, but theres no combination of players that we can offer to Atlanta that would make them want to make a trade. Even if we threw in a first rounder I dont think the Hawks would agree to it. 

Josh Smith is not even a possiblity.


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## Avalanche

We have about 5-6 mil worth of expirings in scal and TA, so we should at least be active in looking for trades this time around


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## jayk009

aactually I was looking at the salaries, and jamal Crawford trade IS possible. 


Brian Scalabrine+Tony Allen+Eddie House+Jr Giddensu can for Jamal Crawford works out assuming Eddie House exercises his player option. 

I dont know if the CBA will allow Eddiee Houe to be traded though. Does anyone know if you can trade a player that just exercised his player option?

I'm under the assumption that Don Nelson just wants to get rid of Crawford and isnt expecting anything in return. All the players going to GS would be expiring contracts and if GS has enough roster spots, truthfully GS will probably waive Scalabrine and Tony Allen instantly .


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## Avalanche

Stephen Jackson is on slightly less than Crawford... though he'd probably be much harder to get


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## jayk009

Avalanche said:


> Stephen Jackson is on slightly less than Crawford... though he'd probably be much harder to get


Yeah I doubt they would trade Jackson for a bunch of expiring contracts. 

On the other hand..I heard reports that Don nelson told Jamal Crawford to opt out of his contract so you never know if he would.



Truthfully I want to see nocioni on this team. He would fit right in with the style of play of this team, and he would be good for getting under the skin of opponents, lol him, KG, and Rondo would cause fits...


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## Avalanche

definitely would be nice to get an impact bench guy..

wonder if Pheonix would give up Barbosa


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## Bogg

Giddens isn't necessary in a Crawford trade. Using the salary numbers on hoopyhype, we'd have to get to 7.02mil to offer a package this offseason, and Scal and TA combine to just under 6 million. We could move Eddie if we wanted to, although I'm thinking we should try to keep him around. Maybe sign someone we still have the rights to to a minimally guaranteed contract worth the difference? Other than that, if Jackson were made available I'd be willing to work out a Glen Davis sign and trade.


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## E.H. Munro

jayisthebest88 said:


> Crawford is basically impossible to trade for at this point. Theres no combination of players that can match his salary,unless we trade one of our "untradeables" but that will hurt our team more then it will help(and yes Perkins is untradeable,) unless Jamal Crawford were to opt out of his contract and sign a MLE deal with us, this is almost impossible.


No it's not. Captain Moobs, Eddie House, & Tony Allen make enough to fall within the CBA guidelines (125% +100k), and all are expiring deals (better still, Eddie's contract comes with a $1 million buyout, which saves the Warriors even more). If they make the deal on draft day Moobs, House & Clownshoes will count for $8.36 million, and Crawford makes $8.64 million. If Boston threw in Billy Walker or JR Giddens they'd even be able to take back Brandan Wright in the deal, which would be an ideal trade for Boston (as they'd be adding some desperately needed length to the bench in addition to the scoring). If they made the deal over the summer, then Boston would need to include Giddens to make the minimum (presuming that Brandan Wright was included, if he wasn't then B-Cup, House, & Clownshoes would be enough).


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## E.H. Munro

jayisthebest88 said:


> I looked into the possiblity of Josh Childress when making this thread, but theres no combination of players that we can offer to Atlanta that would make them want to make a trade. Even if we threw in a first rounder I dont think the Hawks would agree to it.
> 
> Josh Smith is not even a possiblity.


The Hawks might elect to keep Childress out of the NBA for spite. But, in this instance, Childress has made it clear that he won't be suiting up for the Hawks ever again. Atlanta's choices are to grab a player like Giddens or Walker to replace him or live with the shortened rotation. They're going to end up dealing him to somebody as they need depth.


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## jayk009

ehmunro said:


> No it's not. Captain Moobs, Eddie House, & Tony Allen make enough to fall within the CBA guidelines (125% +100k), and all are expiring deals (better still, Eddie's contract comes with a $1 million buyout, which saves the Warriors even more). If they make the deal on draft day Moobs, House & Clownshoes will count for $8.36 million, and Crawford makes $8.64 million. If Boston threw in Billy Walker or JR Giddens they'd even be able to take back Brandan Wright in the deal, which would be an ideal trade for Boston (as they'd be adding some desperately needed length to the bench in addition to the scoring). If they made the deal over the summer, then Boston would need to include Giddens to make the minimum (presuming that Brandan Wright was included, if he wasn't then B-Cup, House, & Clownshoes would be enough).



yeah if you look at a couple posts down you'll see that I said I was wrong annd that a Crawford trade was possible.

But what I don't agree with your post is that GS is willing to trade off Brenden Wright for Billy Walker/JR Giddens. I mean the celtics are already getting such a good deal by getting a player like Crawford for pennies and you think the Warriors would add B Wright to make the trade even more lopsided? 

It is definitly ideal for Boston, but Golden state would never ever make that trade. Unless Brendan Wright slept with Don Nelson's wife ot something...


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## E.H. Munro

They really really want to be rid of Crawford or Maggette. They're going to need to pay to do it, ultimately. And they're higher on Anthony Randolph at this point. So it's definitely within the realm of possibility if Boston sends them a prospect in exchange.


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## jayk009

ehmunro said:


> The Hawks might elect to keep Childress out of the NBA for spite. But, in this instance, Childress has made it clear that he won't be suiting up for the Hawks ever again. Atlanta's choices are to grab a player like Giddens or Walker to replace him or live with the shortened rotation. They're going to end up dealing him to somebody as they need depth.


The thing about Childress is that he's a restricted free agent with the hawks. The onlly reason Childress didn't re-sign with the hawks is that they didn't offer him enogh money in childress' eyes. IF boston signed him to an offer sheet, the most we can offer him is the full MLE, and the Hawks would quickly match since this is obvioously a fair contract for Childress,

This is kind of similar to the Charlie Bell situation a couple of years ago, Charlie Bell made it clear he didnt want to play for the Bucks, and then signed ann offer sheet with the heat. The Bucks still matched the offersheet because it was a fair contract, and I think this is what will happen with the hawks. 

The Hawks have ALL the leverage in this situation, since no team is going to offer him more then the MLE. he can either go play another year in Europe and have the exact same situation next year, or re-sign with the Hawks for around the MLE. 

Childress is not the kind of player that will cause locker room problems, and even if he doesn't want to play for the Hawks right now, if he is signed by them he will quickly forget and be a model team player like he always has been. 


The only way the Celtics can possibly get him is if they do a sign and trade with the Hawks, but the Hawks can easily find another team that can offer a better package then the celtics, so it's very unlikely. Im sure they can get more then Brian Scalabrine/Tony Allen/Giddens from another team.

If Childress were a UFA then definitly the celtics would have a good chance of signing him, but since hes a RFA is it a little more complicated.


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## jayk009

ehmunro said:


> They really really want to be rid of Crawford or Maggette. They're going to need to pay to do it, ultimately. And they're higher on Anthony Randolph at this point. So it's definitely within the realm of possibility if Boston sends them a prospect in exchange.


Corey Magette is pretty much untradeable with his contract. Yeah if they wanted to trade away magette they would have to add something to sweeten the deal such as B Wright...

But Jamal Crawford is attractive enough as a player that teams would be willing to take on his contract. At least a contender which wont have any cap room in the near future anyways like the Celtics. The Golden State Warriors are "paying" in the sense that they won't be getting any attractive players or picks in return, but hes not that much of a hinderance that they would have to throw in someone like Brenden Wright just so another team will take him.


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## Damian Necronamous

They really ****ed up by letting Posey leave.

Can you imagine, if Garnett and Powe were healthy and the Celtics had kept James Posey? Obviously, it's completely far-fetched, but they would be the best team in the league by far.

PG: Rajon Rondo...Eddie House
SG: Ray Allen
SF: Paul Pierce...James Posey
PF: Kevin Garnett...Glen Davis
C: Kendrick Perkins...Leon Lowe

They'd probably have one of the best benches in the league, and more than solid players at every position. I'm very much looking forward to seeing next year's Lakers and Cavs match up against the Celtics when Garnett is healthy and Rondo and Perkins have another year under their belts.

The Cs will probably retain both Powe and Davis, and add a swingman for part of the MLE.


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## Bogg

Unfortunately Powe and (especially) Garnett going down with injuries kills our team with or without Posey, so it wouldn't really matter if we kept him or not. His contract is going to massively overpay him for the final two years of the deal, it only ever made sense for this year and maybe next. That's precisely the reason that New Orleans would love to dump his contract right now, I mean, if we really wanted him we could ship them Scal and Tony. They'd be happy to take that package if it meant getting out from under his contract.


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## E.H. Munro

Damian Necronamous said:


> They really ****ed up by letting Posey leave.


Where they screwed up was in thinking that Tony Allen could replace him. I was hoping that they would sign someone like Pietrus or Barnes to replace Posey, but they didn't do anything. That was the mistake.



Damian Necronamous said:


> The Cs will probably retain both Powe and Davis, and add a swingman for part of the MLE.


I don't think they will sign Powe unless they make a trade to clear a roster spot. He really ****ed up his knee against Chicago, he had microfracture surgery on top of the ACL surgery. He probably won't return at all until after the All Star break next year, and probably won't contribute much until 2011. So I expect them to help Powe out on the side until they have a spare roster spot to stash him on while he rehabs.


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## Avalanche

yeah if we can hold on to him, have him with the team and rehabbing full time without a contract that would be ideal, giving us another roster spot to try some things out

i agree on TA though, that was rediculous thinking he could step in for Posey, we need to address that this off-season (aswell as the 5 and 1 depending on marbury)


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## sologigolos

yeah letting posey go, given his age and his asking price (both $ and years), was not a bad move per se. the problem is that they really didn't do a good job of plugging that gap despite the slew of quality swingmen that were available in the last off season. for a team that benefited so much from the bench, they really dropped the ball on that this year (jumping the gun on mikki moore, for one). 
On that note--Chris Andersen is available this off-season, too, isn't he? Would we not like to see that crazy man?
As for Childress--i think the RFA rule is that the former team holds the right for 2 years. So in 2010 summer, Childress will be UFA, and this was what he was aiming for when he signed the 2 year deal, no?
Wilcox is a decent big body. McCants, for his shortcomings, can heat up, and might be a decent post-allen option.


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## E.H. Munro

Atlanta needs to sign Marvin Williams this offseason and would like room to add someone like Wilcox. In order to keep their rights to Childress they need to keep on payroll for cap purposes. So unless they want to spend another year shorthanded they're either going to renounce him or trade him for end of the rotation players.


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## Avalanche

sologigolos said:


> yeah letting posey go, given his age and his asking price (both $ and years), was not a bad move per se. the problem is that they really didn't do a good job of plugging that gap despite the slew of quality swingmen that were available in the last off season. for a team that benefited so much from the bench, they really dropped the ball on that this year (jumping the gun on mikki moore, for one).
> On that note--Chris Andersen is available this off-season, too, isn't he? Would we not like to see that crazy man?
> As for Childress--i think the RFA rule is that the former team holds the right for 2 years. So in 2010 summer, Childress will be UFA, and this was what he was aiming for when he signed the 2 year deal, no?
> Wilcox is a decent big body. McCants, for his shortcomings, can heat up, and might be a decent post-allen option.


I just cant see the Birdman being available, Denver wont let him go

Mccants is an interesting option... if hes cheap, if there is one guy who can get his head on straight its Garnett, Mccants idolised him in 'Sota and he'd be a better option then TA at least


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## Wade County

The choice between Big Baby and Leon Powe will be interesting. I doubt you can keep both.


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## sologigolos

as for birdman: is he RFA? does denver even have bird rights?
as for BBD vs Powe: could we not likely sign Powe for cheap? will many teams gamble on him if he, as they say, is out until 2010 all-star game?


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## c_dog

honestly this team wouldn't look so thin right now if ainge was just slightly less incompetent. we all know he got lucky when he managed to bring the big 3 together(thank mchale for donating his franchise player to a former teammate.). his incompetence in the office has been well documented.


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## Bogg

MB30 said:


> The choice between Big Baby and Leon Powe will be interesting. I doubt you can keep both.


It's not even a question. Baby's proven he can be a legit starter in certain situations, and Leon may not be able to contribute for a full year. You re-sign Baby unless some GM throws a ridiculous contract at him, buy the rights to a second rounder and pick up someone like Jeff Adrien in the draft to fill Leon's spot, and hopefully help Leon out with his medical bills and rehab until he can come back.


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## Bogg

c_dog said:


> honestly this team wouldn't look so thin right now if ainge was just slightly less incompetent. we all know he got lucky when he managed to bring the big 3 together(thank mchale for donating his franchise player to a former teammate.). his incompetence in the office has been well documented.



The "donation" of Garnett has been wildly overblown. He turned a franchise big man with 12 seasons worth of mileage on his body into a 22 year old probable franchise big man, two first round picks(albeit one very low), and a rotation player. Considering that they HAD to move Garnett after he found out they were shopping him in secret, that's not a bad return.


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## Premier

Damian Necronamous said:


> They really ****ed up by letting Posey leave.


I disagree. While winning the championship is always the goal, re-signing Posey would not guarantee a repeat, by no means. Ainge made the right call because he wanted to preserve a cap structure that will allow the Celtics to add a significant free agent in the next three offseasons. Posey, while he played a tremendous role in last year's championship run, is not going to be worth his contract, even next year. Mickael Pietrus, a player five years younger, signed for one million dollars less, on average. Matt Barnes, a player with similar ability and production (to a lesser extent), signed with Phoenix for the minimum.

Next year, I don't think Garnett should play anything more than thirty minutes per game next year and he should get an extended break during the games leading to an after all-star weekend. In addition, as with this year, but for different reasons, it would be best to shut down Garnett at the seventy-five game mark and allow him to play sparingly in the last couple of games. Ultimately, Cleveland and Orlando will both finish higher than the Celtics next year regardless of how many minutes Garnett plays, so exerting too much energy for homecourt is futile. The Celtics need to rest Pierce and Garnett during the regular season. They have both reached a point in their careers where they cannot play one hundred game seasons at a high level.

As for this offseason, the Celtics' most pressing need, by far, is the addition of a player does what Garnett does, albeit not as well. This would be someone that can defend the pick-and-roll, can score inside and out, and can play both big man positions. Unfortunately, the only free agent that fits this description is Sheed, who under normal circumstances, would be unwilling to accept the MLE. However, since so many teams are expecting a decrease in overall BRI next year, I don't think there will be many teams willing to spend in free agency this offseason. Therefore, if the Celtics have the opportunity, they absolutely must sign him. Big Baby should be retained as well, but he is a limited player, who only contributes on one end of the floor and can only play one position. Powe will not be the same player as he was last year. If the Celtics want to offer him a one-year, minimum contract and reevaluate him next offseason, that would be fine. Otherwise, I cannot fathom any reason, other than compassion and/or loyalty, to retain him if he asks for a multi-year contract. This gives the Celtics a big man rotation of Perkins, who they signed at an absolute bargain price, Garnett, Wallace, Davis, and perhaps Powe.

In addition, the Celtics need a backup swingman that can get to the basket, defend at a high level, and shoot well enough so that he must be defended on the perimeter. Trevor Ariza, Rodney Carney, Matt Barnes, Anthony Parker come to mind, though the first and fourth will likely come at a higher price than the Celtics can offer. This is why Bill Walker needs to step up. If Eddie House leaves, which is unlikely, Luther Head can replace him.

Overall, next year will be the Celtics' last to win a championship for some time, as they will be in a rebuilding process after then. If they can manage to add Rasheed, retain Big Baby, and add a quality swingman, then the offseason will be a tremendous success.


----------



## c_dog

Bogg said:


> The "donation" of Garnett has been wildly overblown. He turned a franchise big man with 12 seasons worth of mileage on his body into a 22 year old probable franchise big man, two first round picks(albeit one very low), and a rotation player. Considering that they HAD to move Garnett after he found out they were shopping him in secret, that's not a bad return.


mchale could have gotten a similar package, or a better package from other teams. there were reports that the suns and bulls had better offers but mchale chose to help out his buddy ainge whose *** was in hot water. they got a pretty good young bigman in return but kevin garnett could easily have fetched you more. this was garnett at his prime, before he showed signs of mileage, mind you. name anything positive ainge has done other than getting ray allen(dump by seatle) and garnett(donation from old buddy mchale). you can't because his credentials sucks.


----------



## Premier

c_dog said:


> mchale could have gotten a similar package, or a better package from other teams. there were reports that the suns and bulls had better offers but mchale chose to help out his buddy ainge whose *** was in hot water. they got a pretty good young bigman in return but kevin garnett could easily have fetched you more. this was garnett at his prime, before he showed signs of mileage, mind you. name anything positive ainge has done other than getting ray allen(dump by seatle) and garnett(donation from old buddy mchale). you can't because his credentials sucks.


Here are a few (obviously, these are a matter of opinion, and in no way is this an inclusive list):

 *1 *Drafted Kendrick Perkins (via Memphis), who has developed into a plus rebounder, post defender, and capable scorer, in the late first-round.
*2* Traded for Ricky Davis in exchange for Eric Williams (whose ability rapidly diminished), Kedrick Brown (bust), and Tony Battie.
*3* Helped Detroit win the championship by trading Chris Mills' contract for Detroit's '04 first (Rasheed Wallace deal).
*4* Hired Doc Rivers as coach (yes, Rivers is a good coach, as what he lacks in game-time decision-making ability, he more than makes up for in motivating his team, delegating defensive responsibilities, and developing his point-guards (Marcus Banks, no. Rajon Rondo, yes).
*5* Drafted Al Jefferson, a franchise big man despite the injuries, and Delonte West, who has developed into a capable starter.
*6* Traded for Gary Payton and a '06 first in exchange for scrubs (Atkins, Mihm, Jumaine Jones).
*7* Drafted Ryan Gomes in the late second-round of the '05 draft (Gerald Green was a value selection, so we cannot fault Ainge for that). 
*8* Traded for Antoine Walker for a playoff run in exchange for scrubs and the Lakers' '06 first that he acquired in the first Gary Payton trade.
*9* Traded for Cleveland's '07 first, which was later used to acquire Rajon Rondo, in exchange for Jiri Welsch (scrub).
*10* Signed-and-traded Antoine Walker, getting him a nice contract and receiving two second-round picks for his trouble.
*11* Traded for Phoenix's late-first (Rajon Rondo) in exchange for Cleveland's '07 first acquired in the second Jiri Welsch trade.
*12* Traded for Leon Powe in exchange for an '07 second-round selection.
*13* Extended Pierce.
*14 *Extended Kendrick Perkins at one half his market value (about 4M per, which is an absolute bargain).
*15 *Extended Doc.
*16* Traded for Ray Allen and the 35th selection in the '07 draft, Glen Davis (positive move in itself, but also a precursor to the Kevin Garnett deal) in exchange for Yi Jianlian (Ainge's likely selection), Delonte West, and Wally Szczerbiak.
*17* Traded for Kevin Garnett (fair deal, McHale only had the opportunity to trade KG to Chicago during the '07 offseason, where Paxson was hesitant to do the deal because a) he's a coward and b) Garnett was still loyal to Minnesota. Phoenix was never truly willing to include Amare. McHale got a fair deal for Garnett) in exchange for Al Jefferson, Green, Gomes, Theo Ratliff's contract, and firsts.
*18 *Signed Eddie House.
*19* Signed James Posey.
*20 *Signed Sam Cassell and P.J. Brown.
*21* Bought Bill Walker in the second-round in exchange for cash.
*22 *Extended Doc.


----------



## Bogg

Yea, more or less what Premier listed. Also, Jefferson was the best player on the table(the Suns weren't offering Amare) and McHale decided to go that route. Was there an emotional attachment that played into the trade? In all likelihood yes, but he still got a good return on KG. Regardless of whether or not KG had suffered previous serious injury, he had a big man with 974 games (at around 40mpg no less)on his body who demanded a trade, and everyone knew it. In turn, he got a premier young post player. I disagree that Deng(and possibly Gordon) is as good as a package.


----------



## Bogg

Additionally, like it or not, Danny's the best GM the C's have had since Red's heyday, and essentially constructed an NBA champion from scratch(having Pierce in place being the exception).


----------



## jayk009

Bogg said:


> Yea, more or less what Premier listed. Also, Jefferson was the best player on the table(the Suns weren't offering Amare) and McHale decided to go that route. Was there an emotional attachment that played into the trade? In all likelihood yes, but he still got a good return on KG. Regardless of whether or not KG had suffered previous serious injury, he had a big man with 974 games (at around 40mpg no less)on his body who demanded a trade, and everyone knew it. In turn, he got a premier young post player. I disagree that Deng(and possibly Gordon) is as good as a package.


Deng was never offered in a package, if they weren't willing to offer Deng in a trade for Kobe, they were'nt offeirng him for KG. 

anyways I made a post but for some reason it got deleted.

The basic jist of the post was that Minnesota got very good value for KG and what they got in return was basically the template of waht u would expect to receive when trading an all star player away.

Salary Cap relief(Theo Ratliff), Young All -star(Al Jefferson), Solid Role Player(Ryan Gomes), Young Prospects(Sebastian Telfair, Gerald Green), draft picks(2 first rounders).

Considering what teams got in return for pau gasol, VC, etc. etc. I would say thye did very well, Im not saying those players are on the same level as KG but still u have to keep those trades in mind. 


The notion that Mchale did Ainge a favour is ridiculous.


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## TheTruth34

At this point you have to assume that Stephon Marbury is the best backup pg in basketball...and providing the fact that he enjoyed it here and he won't really fit in anywhere else, i think it's a dead given he will resign for a 2 or 3 year deal. bringing back the combo of powe and davis is huge as these two are young and play a pivotal role in returning to the finals. With a healthy KG, and immergences from Baby and Rondo theres really no need to improve. Same roster wins us ring 18.

in response to bringing in sheed. we don't need him. its already a miracle that marbury didn't hurt the team, why risk it with sheed and cut down on powe and davis' play time. 

i do like the mention of mccants, because we need another scorer off the bench. 

also, i've said this over 5 times....tony allen sucks. him and his death threats can go somewhere else. he commits late fouls that hurt us, he can't shoot, and he wines.


----------



## mrsister

TheTruth34 said:


> With a healthy KG, and immergences from Baby and Rondo theres really no need to improve. Same roster wins us ring 18.


I'd have to disagree with this. With a healthy KG and Powe, I think our chances are much better than this year, but I'm not so sure it's enough, and it's certainly not a guarantee that they'll be healthy or someone else won't get injured. I think the key to the Magic beating us was their bench. Yes, Howard, Turkoglu, and Lewis were key, but Pietrus, Johnson, Gortat, and Lee all stepped up at crucial points. We had House and Marbury each play well for one game and that was pretty much it. We had Tony Allen, Moore, Walker, and Pruitt pretty much sitting there the entire series. That's a lot of bodies not doing anything for a team that was shorthanded to begin with. 

We can do better. I've given up on Tony. Even without the injuries, he'll be mediocre at best. With the injuries, he's useless. Moore was probably the wrong big guy to go after. Maybe he'd play better after the offseason, but I'm not counting on it. If he couldn't get time with KG and Powe injured, and Scal was the primary big option off the bench, that's saying something. I'd like to see how Walker develops. I think he has a lot of potential, but they need to give him playing time. I'm pretty sure Pruitt is a bust. If he still can't get on the floor after all this time, I don't think he ever will. 

I'm not well-versed in the ins and outs of salaries and contracts, so I can't propose anything, but I just don't think standing pat will get us another banner. Allen and Pierce may say they can't use fatigue as an excuse, but you could tell it was a factor. They need people off the bench to allow them to rest.


----------



## E.H. Munro

TheTruth34 said:


> At this point you have to assume that Stephon Marbury is the best backup pg in basketball...and providing the fact that he enjoyed it here and he won't really fit in anywhere else, i think it's a dead given he will resign for a 2 or 3 year deal. bringing back the combo of powe and davis is huge as these two are young and play a pivotal role in returning to the finals. With a healthy KG, and immergences from Baby and Rondo theres really no need to improve. Same roster wins us ring 18.


I have to disagree here. For one, Powe won't be healthy until 2011, and Rondo has spent the last two postseasons being largely ignored on the offensive end. He was a non-factor after game 5 of the Bulls series. The Celtics have _a lot_ of work to do if they're intending to contend again.



TheTruth34 said:


> in response to bringing in sheed. we don't need him. its already a miracle that marbury didn't hurt the team, why risk it with sheed and cut down on powe and davis' play time.


Boston got killed because they had one player taller than 6'8". And the 6'8" guy was Brian Scalabrine. They're desperate for tall players that are actually good, like 'Sheed.


----------



## #1AntoineWalkerFan

Bogg said:


> Additionally, like it or not, Danny's the best GM the C's have had since Red's heyday, and essentially constructed an NBA champion from scratch(having Pierce in place being the exception).



its posts like this that will bring me out of retirement...can i make a quick not that ainge offered pierce and the number 5 pick a couple years ago so we could get the almighty greg oden! and he was denied that trade, had that gone through...pierce would be somewhere across country, ainge would be out of a job and we would still S U C K...now i will give him this...AFTER kg got here he was able to make great moves by getting posey and house and pj brown...but while this team was bad he made terrible move after terrible move...but lets hope he can do something this offseason to solidify our bench and make us back into a contender because prems right...we have one more shot at a title if we dont win this teams gonna be blown up


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## E.H. Munro

As a note, Ainge wasn't after Greg Oden, he was after Kevin Durant. Ironically enough had the Blazers taken the deal they'd've probably been the best team in the West last year. And we'd've looked an awful lot like the 2009 OKC Spittoons. Though, with Oden rather than Durant, the Spittoons might have been in a position to land Blake Griffin.


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## Avalanche

Jamario Moon could be an option if he is (according to reports) not staying in Miami


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## NorthSideHatrik

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think Big Baby is worth? I read someone said 3 mil, but i have a feeling someone will offer better than that. Hes young and averaged 16ppg in the playoffs.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

NorthSideHatrik said:


> Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think Big Baby is worth? I read someone said 3 mil, but i have a feeling someone will offer better than that. Hes young and averaged 16ppg in the playoffs.


if brian scalabrine gets 3+ million a year then baby is gonna be worth about double


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## E.H. Munro

Dude, if Scalabrine is worth $3.4 million then Mikki Moore is worth about $5 million. Thankfully it doesn't work that way in the NBA.


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## NorthSideHatrik

ehmunro said:


> Dude, if Scalabrine is worth $3.4 million then Mikki Moore is worth about $5 million. Thankfully it doesn't work that way in the NBA.


So lets circle back around to the original question, what do you think Big Baby is worth?


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## E.H. Munro

He's going to get what the rest of the 6'6"-6'7" power forwards get. Something between $3 million and $4 million per year.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

ehmunro said:


> He's going to get what the rest of the 6'6"-6'7" power forwards get. Something between $3 million and $4 million per year.



i disagree...he's proven himself as a starting 4 in this league regardless of his height...he plays much bigger than he is...he will get an offer of 5 mill if not more from a bad team that has money to spare...the only way he makes 3-4 mill is if he takes a paycut to stay with a good team like the celtics.


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## NorthSideHatrik

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> i disagree...he's proven himself as a starting 4 in this league regardless of his height...he plays much bigger than he is...he will get an offer of 5 mill if not more from a bad team that has money to spare...the only way he makes 3-4 mill is if he takes a paycut to stay with a good team like the celtics.


Just a few random thoughts on the topic.

1. He's 6'8" isn't he? not 6'6" or 6'7". 6'8" and carry some weight (without being a fatty) isn't all that tiny.
2. I agree that he's proven himself a starter, at least for a bad team.
3. He doesn't always play bigger than his size regarding hitting the boards. His post moves yes, but he was terrible on the boards in the 2nd round.
4. How does the MLE work for RFAs? Can a team use the MLE on restricted FAs? If so i think he signs for that. Possible a bit more.


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## jayk009

NorthSideHatrik said:


> Just a few random thoughts on the topic.
> 
> 1. He's 6'8" isn't he? not 6'6" or 6'7". 6'8" and carry some weight (without being a fatty) isn't all that tiny.
> 2. I agree that he's proven himself a starter, at least for a bad team.
> 3. He doesn't always play bigger than his size regarding hitting the boards. His post moves yes, but he was terrible on the boards in the 2nd round.
> 4. How does the MLE work for RFAs? Can a team use the MLE on restricted FAs? If so i think he signs for that. Possible a bit more.


MLE is for any team that's over the cap. 


Glen Davis has early bird rights, which limits any offer from any other team to a deal equivalent to the MLE for a minimum of 3 years. I think it's called the "gilbert arenas provision". 


So the most the celtics can expect to pay is the MLE, but imo it will be for about 3.5 mill a year. 


I don't think Glen Davis has shown he is a starter, he has just shown that he is a very good backup that can be a spot starter. Anything over 3.5 million is too much.


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## E.H. Munro

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> i disagree...he's proven himself as a starting 4 in this league regardless of his height...he plays much bigger than he is...he will get an offer of 5 mill if not more from a bad team that has money to spare...the only way he makes 3-4 mill is if he takes a paycut to stay with a good team like the celtics.


He doesn't "play bigger than his size" at all. He's compensated for it by learning to hit a jumper, which allows him to be effective in spite of his size. He's an effective roleplayer, no doubt. But look around at what better players (like Jason Maxiell) of the same size got, that's his financial future.


----------



## Bogg

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> its posts like this that will bring me out of retirement...can i make a quick not that ainge offered pierce and the number 5 pick a couple years ago so we could get the almighty greg oden! and he was denied that trade, had that gone through...pierce would be somewhere across country, ainge would be out of a job and we would still S U C K...now i will give him this...AFTER kg got here he was able to make great moves by getting posey and house and pj brown...but while this team was bad he made terrible move after terrible move...but lets hope he can do something this offseason to solidify our bench and make us back into a contender because prems right...we have one more shot at a title if we dont win this teams gonna be blown up





Disagree. He was pretty poor when it came to free agency and middling at best in trades, but was pretty solid in the draft, picking up Jefferson, Delonte, Perk, Rondo, Ryan Gomes, Leon, and Baby all out of the lottery. Additionally, when the original goal was to acquire prospects and eventually trade them for assets, it kind of ignores the point of rebuilding to point out that the team was terrible right before he turned it around. I don't believe I said that Ainge was a fantastic GM, but that he's been the most competent person the head the organization since Red's heyday, which I feel is a pretty safe statement.



EDIT: Also, while it certainly isn't the preferable scenario, a team with a core of Rondo, Durant, Jefferson, and whomever we added near the top of last year's draft and this year's isn't exactly a team without a future. Ray/KG was the best possible outcome, and I'm not arguing against it, but trying to trade for Durant would leave us with one of the more promising young teams in the East. That's hardly an indictment of Danny.


----------



## Avalanche

just a side note.... but from how much influence KG has shown on big baby, it would be great to get a long, athletic young guy in here (similar to anthony randolph) to learn from him and build with Rondo and Perk


----------



## Bogg

Avalanche said:


> just a side note.... but from how much influence KG has shown on big baby, it would be great to get a long, athletic young guy in here (similar to anthony randolph) to learn from him and build with Rondo and Perk



That was the thinking behind signing Pat O'Bryant, and we saw how that turned out. That doesn't mean that the idea is without merit, but it's difficult to find someone with the actual talent and desire along with the body we're looking for. Not exactly easy to come up with lottery talent in our position.


----------



## E.H. Munro

This trade would make me happy in the pants. I may need to run to the restroom and rub one out just from reading it.


----------



## jayk009

two players that I ignored on thisthread are Antonio Mcdyess and Zaza Pachulia. 

Antonio Mcdyess because I assumed he didn't want to leave Detroit, but if is willing to then he is pretty much interchangeable with Joe Smith with a slight preference for Antonio Mcyess.


If Rasheed Wallace refuses to sign with the celtics then I'm sure Chris Andersen and Zaza Pachulia will be on their radars.


----------



## jayk009

Avalanche said:


> just a side note.... but from how much influence KG has shown on big baby, it would be great to get a long, athletic young guy in here (similar to anthony randolph) to learn from him and build with Rondo and Perk


Sean Williams in Boston would make me cream my pants. But I don't know what New Jersey is expecting to get in return, and whether they would trade him within the division.

If we're to look at similar past situations we can see that they traded Marcus Williams to the warriors for a future first round pick. If I were Ainge I would trade Giddens for Sean in a hearbeat. KG can straighten him out.


----------



## Floods

I hear NJ is pretty lukewarm on Williams at this point. He probably could be had for relatively cheap, though they may be stubborn with the dealing-in-division thing.


----------



## Avalanche

yeah they dont seem very high on him, he was someone i actually mentioned a couple of times during the season as a possibility

couldnt find the actual trade in the link u posted ehmunro... but i assumeit was this one?
http://www.17banners.com/index.php?...d-allen-to-phoenix&catid=3:newsflash&Itemid=1



> "Trade rumor out of Phoenix: Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo for Amare Stoudemire, Leandro Barbosa, and the 14th overall pick. Source: sports.ktar.com
> Not sure if this is entirely speculation, but it is being talked about (Gambo & Ash) on the radio as I write this. No sources mentioned, so take it as such. They did mention that Boston initiated the proposal, and that the Suns have not made a comment on it as of yet.
> On the surface, I don't like the trade. And I think most Celtics fans would feel the same way. On the flip-side, Phoenix fans are calling in, saying that Amare alone is worth Rondo and Allen. My question - where the hell would Perk play? Unless there's more to this, it makes little sense for the C's. However, this is the type of haul that Ray Allen's expiring contract, and another piece or two (not Rondo, by the way), could bring."


if this talk is going on im at least happy we are looking at big deals aswell as just end of the bench additions... but we cant trade away our starting 1 and 2 for a power forward and a sixth man


----------



## Avalanche

We may have offered TA and Giddens for Willie Green apparently

though im not really sure why


----------



## jayk009

Avalanche said:


> We may have offered TA and Giddens for Willie Green apparently
> 
> though im not really sure why


link?


----------



## Floods

Celtics asking Memphis about #2?


> As the rumor mill churns, the Griz have been approached by several teams about acquiring the second overall pick. *Boston*, Houston and New York are said to be among the most recent suitors.
> 
> Boston and Houston would likely have to offer an established NBA player or two, given that neither team owns a first-round pick. New York owns the eighth pick and likely would want to move up for the opportunity to take Rubio.


http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/jun/09/griz-expect-rubio-visit-for-workout/

Odd, but maybe they'd flip the pick to Phoenix for Stoudemire (and Barbosa pretty plz) without having to surrender Rondo.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Celtics asking Memphis about #2?
> 
> http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/jun/09/griz-expect-rubio-visit-for-workout/
> 
> Odd, but maybe they'd flip the pick to Phoenix for Stoudemire (and Barbosa pretty plz) without having to surrender Rondo.


Who the **** do you think they'd be trading to Memphis for the #2 pick? J.R. Giddens?


----------



## Avalanche

Rondo has been mentioned... as has Ray

something like, trade Rondo/TA for Conley/#2
Sign Kidd/Miller/Bibby with the MLE
Draft Harden

Not what i want to happen btw, just things floating around


----------



## E.H. Munro

Caveat, I'm pretty sure that the Memphis writer has got his wires crossed, and that what Houston and Boston called about was Memphis' second first round pick, not the second pick. That being said, if Memphis is talking about moving the pick to Boston, I'm pretty sure that OJ Mayo's BFF (Billy Walker) would need to be included as it's the only way the deal makes any sense at all (i.e. they don't like their prospects at #2, so they grab a better PG than Rubio, and OJ Mayo's best buddy as an added inducement to Mayo to commit to the Grizz long term).

I'm also positive that Boston would need to take back at least Jaric, and so include their filler expirings to make the money work. In essence, if Boston's trading Rondo, Walker and $13 million ($3 million plus the savings from dumping Marko Polo) then I can see it. It would essentially be the inverse of their deal with Portland, when the Blazers traded Seabass and approximately $12 million for Brandon Roy.


----------



## Floods

ehmunro said:


> Who the **** do you think they'd be trading to Memphis for the #2 pick? J.R. Giddens?


totally

Ray and Walker for Milicic (pretty much dead to Memphis now), Buckner and Jaric (contracts) works. Plus the pick. Should we flip the pick somewhere else, we can tack some or all those guys with it for, say, Stoudemire.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> totally
> 
> Ray and Walker for Milicic (pretty much dead to Memphis now), Buckner and Jaric (contracts) works. Plus the pick. Should we flip the pick somewhere else, we can tack some or all those guys with it for, say, Stoudemire.


Memphis isn't trading #2 for an expiring deal. The centerpiece would be Rondo/Walker.


----------



## Avalanche

Hasnt been much on this for 2 days now so i think it was probably just an initial 'what would it take' call...

i still think Rondo/TA for #2/Conley would have been the centre piece, if not the whole deal

I would like to pick up Warrick as a bonus somehow, maybe include scal... if you signed Dre Miller or Kidd with the MLE the team really wouldnt lose anything, i mean Orlando and LA got to the finals with Alston and Fisher at the point

Miller/Conley
Allen/Harden/House
Pierce/Walker
Garnett/Warrick
Perkins/Davis

leaves us without the MLE for a big though

again, not likely... nor what i want to happen but hey, its the off-season and we need something to amuse us


----------



## Avalanche

heard that we are talking to the kings about the #4 pick aswell... ill put the link up when i come accross it again


----------



## E.H. Munro

Danny Ainge's words on Rondo make it seem like they're discussing a deal centered around him. If they were committing to him, they'd be looking to lock him up immediately, but if they sign him to an immediate extension they can't trade him until next summer. And they're seemingly uninterested in signing him immediately.



Danny Ainge said:


> The Celtics have until the end of October to work out a contract extension with guard Rajon Rondo. Rondo is under contract next season, but if he is not given an extension before the season begins, he will be a restricted free agent in 2010. Because of his play in the postseason, Rondo went from being a good free agent in 2010 to a marquee one that teams might try to be creative about acquiring if he's not locked up. The 23-year-old averaged 16.9 points, 9.7 rebounds, and 9.8 assists in the playoffs. "I'm not going to talk about contract extensions right now," Celtics president Danny Ainge said. "It's not a priority right now. We have until the end of October."


----------



## Avalanche

He's definitely being shopped... until i see a confirmed offer though its hard to know whether its a good thing


----------



## E.H. Munro

Avalanche said:


> He's definitely being shopped... until i see a confirmed offer though its hard to know whether its a good thing


Actually, Wyc Grousbeck confirmed today that the Celtics are planning on joining next summer's gold rush, which they can't do if Rondo's here. So I'm guessing they're trying to work out a deal centered around Tony, Rajon, & Giddens/Walker for a cost controlled player and a pick. Say Memphis for Conley & #2 or Sactown for Thompson & #4. That way they delay the payday for the supporting cast player and have a chance to add a new third wheel next summer.


----------



## Avalanche

Apparently the Memphis offer was Perkins/Walker for the number 2... which is obviously why they said no.

Problem with what Wyc said, as i heard it aswell... is that to get enough space to get a max guy, we would have to lose rondo, ray, our entire bench, basically gut the team to sign one max guy and then have no one left to put around him.
Its physically possible for us to work into that position but while we have the big 3 here we just need to add and go all out one last time, not be looking at shedding salary

i fear its just a cover so if we miss out on a big pick up, dont spend the MLE they can turn around and say they are staying flexible for next off-season

we found out this time, the off-season is important and we NEED to get some impact bench guys


----------



## E.H. Munro

Avalanche said:


> Apparently the Memphis offer was Perkins/Walker for the number 2... which is obviously why they said no.
> 
> Problem with what Wyc said, as i heard it aswell... is that to get enough space to get a max guy, we would have to lose rondo, ray, our entire bench, basically gut the team to sign one max guy and then have no one left to put around him.
> Its physically possible for us to work into that position but while we have the big 3 here we just need to add and go all out one last time, not be looking at shedding salary
> 
> i fear its just a cover so if we miss out on a big pick up, dont spend the MLE they can turn around and say they are staying flexible for next off-season
> 
> we found out this time, the off-season is important and we NEED to get some impact bench guys


They're losing Ray anyway. He's thirty five, even if they keep him for 2010 he won't be returning in 2011. And if they signed someone like Joe Johnson they could most certainly fill out the bench with ring chasing vets. And, frankly, that's what you want there. The Joe Smiths, Antonio McDyesses, and Grant Hills that know the job and play steady under pressure.


----------



## mrsister

I'm not comfortable with the idea of getting rid of Rondo. I really think the success of the offense is based on the pace of the game. Rondo speeds things up, and it's very noticeable when he's off the floor. House and Marbury can't push the ball or penetrate like Rondo. He sees the floor well, takes care of the ball, and gets the stars the ball where they want it. On defense, he's a real pest. I don't know how they'll make up for the loss of those things. People used to think you could put anyone around the Big Three, and they would win, but I don't believe that. I think it would be a big mistake to get rid of Rondo. As much as I love Ray, I'd rather see him traded than Rondo.


----------



## Marcus13

I don't like what Ainge is doing at all. He is acting far too desperate to get something done and it feels like a bad deal is on the horizon


----------



## E.H. Munro

mrsister said:


> I'm not comfortable with the idea of getting rid of Rondo. I really think the success of the offense is based on the pace of the game. Rondo speeds things up, and it's very noticeable when he's off the floor. House and Marbury can't push the ball or penetrate like Rondo. He sees the floor well, takes care of the ball, and gets the stars the ball where they want it. On defense, he's a real pest. I don't know how they'll make up for the loss of those things. People used to think you could put anyone around the Big Three, and they would win, but I don't believe that. I think it would be a big mistake to get rid of Rondo. As much as I love Ray, I'd rather see him traded than Rondo.


The problem with Rondo is that three years in he is still one of the worst shooters in the NBA and every postseason teams force Rondo to beat them, which has made the games a lot harder for Boston than they should be. He's also apparently looking for max money, and if ever there was a player that didn't deserve it it's Rondo. Here's an exchange between Russillo & Mannix about Rondo.



> *Russillo*: Yeah I think there’s a bigger chance that they’d move him than maybe Boston fans would think. I think when it was originally rumored, whatever that Phoenix deal was with Amar’e Stoudemire, I heard a lot of people say oh the Celtics would never trade Rondo. But based on what I’ve heard the last couple days, I don’t think that’s true. Look, I don’t think they’re trying to move him, but I think they’re trying to throw some pieces around and let basketball people know that they’d move some of these guys to avoid maybe having to pay Rondo all the money they’ll have to pay and then pair him with guys that are going to be two years older than they are right now.
> 
> *Mannix*: Well they don’t like his contract demands first of all. Rondo’s not the kind of guy who’s going to take a hometown discount to stay in Boston. He’s going to sign with whoever offers him the most dollars at the end of his contract, whenever it’s up. He’s going to be a guy who’s going to go out there and try to get the most money.


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## mrsister

ehmunro said:


> The problem with Rondo is that three years in he is still one of the worst shooters in the NBA and every postseason teams force Rondo to beat them, which has made the games a lot harder for Boston than they should be. He's also apparently looking for max money, and if ever there was a player that didn't deserve it it's Rondo. Here's an exchange between Russillo & Mannix about Rondo.


But is he one of the worst shooters in the NBA? I think he's one of the most reluctant shooters in the NBA but not one of the worst. He made plenty of jumpers and many more layups, which I think is just as valuable if not more. It sounds easy, but finishing in traffic at his size isn't something anyone can do. Why shoot over someone if you can go around them? This is not to say he shouldn't take more outside shots. He should. I just think that can be taught while a lot of his other skills cannot. 

If it's a matter of money, then that's a different story. If his demands make it impossible to improve the team, then that's a problem. I just think it will be hard to improve the team without him. Any step forward will be negated by his absence, short of getting Chris Paul, Tony Parker, or Deron Williams. You can have stars on your team, but if you don't have someone to get them the ball correctly, it doesn't work. Look at what happened to Detroit minus Billups and Denver plus Billups. They went in opposite directions with pretty much the same guys other than one. Billups can do what Iverson cannot, even though Iverson is a great player. Rondo can do what most other point guards cannot.


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## E.H. Munro

mrsister said:


> But is he one of the worst shooters in the NBA? I think he's one of the most reluctant shooters in the NBA but not one of the worst. He made plenty of jumpers and many more layups, which I think is just as valuable if not more. It sounds easy, but finishing in traffic at his size isn't something anyone can do. Why shoot over someone if you can go around them? This is not to say he shouldn't take more outside shots. He should. I just think that can be taught while a lot of his other skills cannot.


You don't shoot an aFG% of .357 without being an awful shooter. It's sort of a prerequisite. He didn't make "plenty of jumpers", Orlando let him have wide open jumpers all series long and he couldn't hit them.



mrsister said:


> If it's a matter of money, then that's a different story. If his demands make it impossible to improve the team, then that's a problem. I just think it will be hard to improve the team without him. Any step forward will be negated by his absence, short of getting Chris Paul, Tony Parker, or Deron Williams. You can have stars on your team, but if you don't have someone to get them the ball correctly, it doesn't work. Look at what happened to Detroit minus Billups and Denver plus Billups. They went in opposite directions with pretty much the same guys other than one. Billups can do what Iverson cannot, even though Iverson is a great player. Rondo can do what most other point guards cannot.


True, look at LA with Derek Fisher. It's obvious that you need...

Look, it's pretty simple. To contend for a title you need a top 10 player to build around, and a top 20 guy supporting him. In 2008 Garnett was arguably a top 5 player, Pierce was certainly close to being one of the top 10, and then they had Ray Allen. With that much talent they rolled to a title. In 2009 Garnett went down injured. Going into 2010 he's no longer a top 10 player, he needs to earn his way onto the list. But even if/when he does, his window on being a top 10 player is shutting rapidly. Pierce is also declining. Who's the top 10 player they're building around next? He isn't on the roster. Rondo will never get there. But if they give him a Devin Harris-type deal this team is stuck with two aging stars and a wannabe as their core. And that's probably the reason that they're shopping Rondo for a 6'5" clone (Tyreke Evans). If they trade for one of the rookie points, and sign a ringchasing vet as a one year stopgap, they push back the payday until 2014, leaving them the flexibility to either trade Ray for the top 10 guy to build around, or sign him as a free agent in the summer of 2010.


----------



## jayk009

ehmunro said:


> Actually, Wyc Grousbeck confirmed today that the Celtics are planning on joining next summer's gold rush, which they can't do if Rondo's here. So I'm guessing they're trying to work out a deal centered around Tony, Rajon, & Giddens/Walker for a cost controlled player and a pick. Say Memphis for Conley & #2 or Sactown for Thompson & #4. That way they delay the payday for the supporting cast player and have a chance to add a new third wheel next summer.



actually, there IS a way that the celtics can get cap room for the 2010 off season without trading Rondo. What they are planning on doing is delaying signing Rondo to a contract extension until that off season. Since Rajon Rondo's contract is relatively small and his pay increase will be very big, they can wait until after they sign another contract before signing Rondo since they have his bird rights. It's one of the few rules that allow team to sort of circumvent the salary cap. This is exactly what the Milwaukee Bucks did with Michael Redd a few years ago, they first signed Bobby Simmons before resigning Michael Redd since Michael Redd's cap hit was very very small. They will also renounce Ray Allen's bird rights which will free a further 20 million in cap space(even though he is a FA, if they have his bird rights, the "cap hit" will be around 20 million. They can try to sign a max contract player and then give Rondo his near max extension and try to sign ray for remainder of cap space remaining, OR let Ray Allen walk. 


You see, the NBA salary cap adds a "salary value" also known as a "cap hit"(i dont know the technical term, thats what I call it), so that even when a player is a restricted Free Agent or a UFA with bird rights, as long as the team has their rights their previous salary(not exactly but generally) is counted against their salary cap even if they're not signed. This is to prevent teams from signing as many free agents as they want and then just re-signing their own bird right players later. In Rajon Rondo's case, his cap hit will be at most around 5-6 million dollars, his new contract will undoubtedly be worth near max dollars, and since they have bird rights on him, they can resign him no matter what their cap situation is like. So they will sign a FA first when his cap hit is only 5-6 million, instead of signing Rondo first and having his near max salary count against the cap. The difference between Rondo and alot of other players is that most players cap hits will be similar to the new contract they will sign, but in Rondo's case his cap hit is much lower then his new contract will be. The reason is because he is coming off his rookie contract, and the reason why alot of other players on their rookie contract dont come into this situation is because they usually negotiate an extension way before they are eligible to become a restricted free agent. 

After they denounce Ray Allen's bird rights and delay Rondo's signing they will have over 20 million in cap space, which is enough to sign one player to a very big contract and retain Ray Allen for around 7-8 million a year. (but they will probably not resign Ray Allen if this were the case)

I hope this made sense to some of you, I'm not really good at explaining things.



all this is assuming that the owner is willing to go way over the cap and pay the luxury tax, which he will probably do if it means more championships


----------



## E.H. Munro

Rondo's cap hold isn't small, it's in the region of $5.5 million, and the payroll will be at $50 million for cap calculations that summer ($39 million for Pierce & Garnett, another $4 million and change for Perkins, another $2-$3 million for Giddens, Walker, and anyone they sign in this draft), meaning that Boston would need to luck into a Chauncey Billups situation (i.e sign a guy that's perceived poorly and have him blossom overnight into a top 10 player). Unfortunately Danny has a better chance of hitting the Powerball than finding a top ten talent available for a starting salary of $6 million or so. The Redd situation was different as he was a second round pick and his cap hold was much smaller.


----------



## mrsister

ehmunro said:


> You don't shoot an aFG% of .357 without being an awful shooter. It's sort of a prerequisite. He didn't make "plenty of jumpers", Orlando let him have wide open jumpers all series long and he couldn't hit them.


I was referring to the whole season. With a healthy KG, I think the Orlando series would have been much different. But Rondo was the main reason they even got to play Orlando in the first place. So much emphasis is put on his ability to shoot. Eddie House can shoot. He doesn't have anywhere near the overall talent of Rondo. And we saw that if you shut down House's shooting, he's ineffective because he doesn't do much else. 



ehmunro said:


> True, look at LA with Derek Fisher. It's obvious that you need...


Teams can get away without a point guard like Rondo, but Rondo fits with the Celtics both on offense and defense. With House or Marbury at point, it's a totally different team. It's not that hard to see.



ehmunro said:


> Look, it's pretty simple. To contend for a title you need a top 10 player to build around, and a top 20 guy supporting him. In 2008 Garnett was arguably a top 5 player, Pierce was certainly close to being one of the top 10, and then they had Ray Allen. With that much talent they rolled to a title. In 2009 Garnett went down injured. Going into 2010 he's no longer a top 10 player, he needs to earn his way onto the list. But even if/when he does, his window on being a top 10 player is shutting rapidly. Pierce is also declining. Who's the top 10 player they're building around next? He isn't on the roster. Rondo will never get there. But if they give him a Devin Harris-type deal this team is stuck with two aging stars and a wannabe as their core. And that's probably the reason that they're shopping Rondo for a 6'5" clone (Tyreke Evans). If they trade for one of the rookie points, and sign a ringchasing vet as a one year stopgap, they push back the payday until 2014, leaving them the flexibility to either trade Ray for the top 10 guy to build around, or sign him as a free agent in the summer of 2010.


They didn't roll to a title. Do you remember the first 2 rounds? Since then, Rondo, Perkins, and Davis have all gotten better. Unfortunately, they lost Posey and Brown as well as KG and Powe to injury. The loss of Posey and Brown ended up being huge as nobody filled their shoes. I'm just saying if you lose a piece without replacing it, your team is diminished. There isn't some magic formula for winning a title. Remember the Lakers with Kobe, Shaq, Payton, and Malone? It takes more than just collecting talent. The Celtics won last year because they bought into a system and executed well. They did that this year until the injuries piled up. Having three stars wasn't the only reason they won. 

But anyway, we'll see. If Rondo is traded and they win another title, I'll eat my words. That's just my feeling about him right now. I believe he will be hard to replace, and if they don't, they will struggle even if they do find another big talent.


----------



## E.H. Munro

mrsister said:


> I was referring to the whole season. With a healthy KG, I think the Orlando series would have been much different. But Rondo was the main reason they even got to play Orlando in the first place. So much emphasis is put on his ability to shoot. Eddie House can shoot. He doesn't have anywhere near the overall talent of Rondo. And we saw that if you shut down House's shooting, he's ineffective because he doesn't do much else.


This is what we call a false dichotomy. The choice isn't between Rajon and a guy whose only NBA skill is shooting the basketball. The question is do you commit near max money to a run of the mill player and make him the focal point of the team. Can you find me an example of a title winner whose best player was only a top 50 guy? 

As for you claims about House, you know what else we saw? We saw that once you tighten the screws on the fastbreak Rondo vanishes. His complete inability to shoot the rock is a gigantic liability in the halfcourt. And something that shows up in the playoffs when teams get serious about defense (as even Chicago did eventually).



mrsister said:


> Teams can get away without a point guard like Rondo, but Rondo fits with the Celtics both on offense and defense.


Actually, he doesn't, and that's the problem. He forces Ray Allen to purely shoot off screens (because Rondo has no offensive impact unless the ball's in his hands), something that Allen isn't particularly comfortable with. Allen is a creative scorer that likes to get into his rhythm shooting off the dribble and driving, which he doesn't get the chance to do here. Pierce has almost entirely been converted into a jumpshooter to space the floor for Rondo. Sacrificing his scoring efficiency in the process. Mario Chalmers, honestly, is a better fit with this squad. Jarryd Bayless, as well.



mrsister said:


> They didn't roll to a title. Do you remember the first 2 rounds?


Indeed I do. The first round featured four blowouts and three close losses. Round two featured the only team in the NBA on their level. After round two neither of their remaining opponents belonged on the floor with them.



mrsister said:


> There isn't some magic formula for winning a title. Remember the Lakers with Kobe, Shaq, Payton, and Malone? It takes more than just collecting talent.


You mean the 2004 Lakers with the forty-something, about-to-retire, injured Karl Malone and Gary Payton on his last legs? That "talent"? The 2004 Lakers had two top ten guys and then a bunch of roleplayers. The Pistons, on the other hand, had one top 10 guy (Chauncey), a pair of top 20 guys ('Sheed & Rip), and two more top 30 guys. Believe it or not, they had more talent than the 2004 Lakers. Whose point guard was...

There is a formula. No top ten players and you can pretty much kiss your shot a title goodbye. By 2011 Boston, in all likelihood, won't have any. And if they're committing to Rondo and aging stars, no path to get any. Then we'll settle in for the long wait until the present owners sell.


----------



## sologigolos

ehmunro said:


> True, look at LA with Derek Fisher. It's obvious that you need...
> 
> Look, it's pretty simple. To contend for a title you need a top 10 player to build around, and a top 20 guy supporting him. In 2008 Garnett was arguably a top 5 player, Pierce was certainly close to being one of the top 10, and then they had Ray Allen. With that much talent they rolled to a title. In 2009 Garnett went down injured. Going into 2010 he's no longer a top 10 player, he needs to earn his way onto the list. But even if/when he does, his window on being a top 10 player is shutting rapidly. Pierce is also declining. Who's the top 10 player they're building around next? He isn't on the roster. Rondo will never get there. But if they give him a Devin Harris-type deal this team is stuck with two aging stars and a wannabe as their core. And that's probably the reason that they're shopping Rondo for a 6'5" clone (Tyreke Evans). If they trade for one of the rookie points, and sign a ringchasing vet as a one year stopgap, they push back the payday until 2014, leaving them the flexibility to either trade Ray for the top 10 guy to build around, or sign him as a free agent in the summer of 2010.


I don't know how true that is. True, in recent years, a good PG does not seem necessary,but in 30 years since and including 1980, All teams not coached by Phil Jackson/Tex Winters has required a "good" point guard, or at least someone who can be the distributor, whether it was Magic Johnson, Chauncey Billups, Isiah Thomas or Kenny Smith, or even a Payton/JWill combo, supplemented by someone like DWade (Celtics in mid 80s combined DJ/Ainge with help from Bird). Outside the Triangle, Boston with Rondo in 08 is almost an abberation. Sure, we can follow the Heat/80sCeltics model, and Allen is a good enough ballhandler/distributor, but I'm inclined to think it's not going to work. 

But I'm just playing the devil's advocate. I would love to trade Rondo for #4 and Hawes/Thompson (on both of whom I am high), provided Rubio is on the board by then (but the word is that Ainge ain't taking Rubio even if he's around?).

But then again, LAL is losing either Ariza or Odom, Orlando is probably losing Hedo (and I think they, along with the nuggets, are just not talented enough to repeat), Cleveland seems to have crazy holes that might get worse in their first year with a new coach. So maybe the race is more winnable next year. KG will have fresh legs again, provided he has fully recovered, too. If we can play the MLE game right, I think we still have a hell of a chance.

But then again, Rondo, for all that he is, has limitations, I feel, especially to build a franchise around. If we can get great talent at the #4 and Hawes/Thompson, I think we might have to sacrifice the present for the future. (but are we tired of waiting for the future?)


----------



## sologigolos

ehmunro said:


> As for you claims about House, you know what else we saw? We saw that once you tighten the screws on the fastbreak Rondo vanishes. His complete inability to shoot the rock is a gigantic liability in the halfcourt. And something that shows up in the playoffs when teams get serious about defense (as even Chicago did eventually).


I wholeheartedly agree with this. Rondo may become the best complementary player in our era, but he's not a franchise player, even if he drops 25-10-10 over the length of a season. Without a franchise player or two on the floor with him, Rondo's just average. And as he ages, his game will not translate (he is a tenacious workhorse, so he might develop new aspects of the game, but I just don't see him being a max money guy into his early 30s). And as the big three ages, the team will necessarily have to slow down. As much as I love Rondo, he is not a long-term solution for us.


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## sologigolos

ehmunro said:


> There is a formula. No top ten players and you can pretty much kiss your shot a title goodbye. By 2011 Boston, in all likelihood, won't have any. And if they're committing to Rondo and aging stars, no path to get any. Then we'll settle in for the long wait until the present owners sell.


As far as a formula goes,
I think a "good" point guard and a "good" center are NECESSARY unless your coaching staff includes Jackson and Winters. Whether your PG is a Payton/JWill combo, or whether your center is Bill Laimbeer.


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## E.H. Munro

sologigolos said:


> As far as a formula goes,
> I think a "good" point guard and a "good" center are NECESSARY unless your coaching staff includes Jackson and Winters. Whether your PG is a Payton/JWill combo, or whether your center is Bill Laimbeer.


Well, yes, you need functional pieces. It's tough to win if you're starting an Eddie House in your lineup. But really, you need the talent to win. I think what I'm arguing against is the "We can't trade Rondo!!! He's a top 10 PG!!!" nonsense. You need top ten guys on an absolute scale, not a relative one. Chris Paul, arguably a top 5 player, couldn't get the Hornets anywhere because the rest of that roster sucks to an unholy degree. When your starting SF can't shoot, and lacks the footspeed to keep up with Brad Miller, your shooting guards can't shoot, and you're playing David West at center due to injuries, you're in a world of trouble that no one this side of LeBron can save you from.

But you can absolutely build around a Chris Paul or Deron Williams, not because they're "point guards" but because they're amongst the best players in the game. People saying that we can build around Rondo because he's "a top 10 point guard!!!" are missing the point. He's a run of the mill player on an absolute scale. And I haven't even really said that Evans is better, I think I've called him a taller/stronger Rondo. His saving grace, as far as I can see, is that he pushes back the payday for a few years.


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## mrsister

ehmunro said:


> Well, yes, you need functional pieces. It's tough to win if you're starting an Eddie House in your lineup. But really, you need the talent to win. I think what I'm arguing against is the "We can't trade Rondo!!! He's a top 10 PG!!!" nonsense. You need top ten guys on an absolute scale, not a relative one. Chris Paul, arguably a top 5 player, couldn't get the Hornets anywhere because the rest of that roster sucks to an unholy degree. When your starting SF can't shoot, and lacks the footspeed to keep up with Brad Miller, your shooting guards can't shoot, and you're playing David West at center due to injuries, you're in a world of trouble that no one this side of LeBron can save you from.
> 
> But you can absolutely build around a Chris Paul or Deron Williams, not because they're "point guards" but because they're amongst the best players in the game. People saying that we can build around Rondo because he's "a top 10 point guard!!!" are missing the point. He's a run of the mill player on an absolute scale. And I haven't even really said that Evans is better, I think I've called him a taller/stronger Rondo. His saving grace, as far as I can see, is that he pushes back the payday for a few years.


I never said we should build around Rondo. And I agree he shouldn't get max money. I'll have to see it to believe it if anyone gives him that this early. I don't think the Celtics will. But with KG, Pierce, and Allen aging, they won't be around while Rondo is still in his prime. At that point, you get the top 10 talent when those guys are off the books. I'm very skeptical we could get top 10 talent in the 2010 free agent class even with Rondo gone. There will be lots of teams courting those guys, and I have a feeling many of them will stay with their teams. In the meantime, I think they should try to keep Rondo around provided he doesn't break the bank. You may say he doesn't fit in, but I think anyone on the Celtics would disagree. KG and Rondo especially have a chemistry on the court. Ray may have his troubles, but he's getting up in age, so shooting off screens may be more suited to him now. I also think he handled the ball a lot in Seattle out of necessity, not because that's what he's supposed to do. One of his strengths is his motion without the ball ala Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton. Rondo allows him to do that. I don't think he played that well when Rondo was off the floor. He overdribbled a lot because nobody else could handle the ball. 

The Big Three aren't going to want to wait around for another championship or bide their time while the Celtics make moves in anticipation of talent in the future. They want to win now, and I think that starts with improving their bench but not taking away from the starting five. I really haven't seen any trades where they get anyone who would crack the starting five unless they got rid of one of the Big Three. I haven't seen any PGs or centers in the rumors that have been flying around except for a brief aside about Steve Nash. Yes, this is a business, but winning is about making your marquee players happy and comfortable with whom their playing. Rondo may have his shortcomings, but he's widely accepted by his teammates.


----------



## Avalanche

If Pheonix blows up and trades amare, shaq etc Hill would have to be a likely target for cheap


----------



## Avalanche

> There’s another trade rumor floating out there seemingly even more far-fetched than the Al and No. 6 to Phoenix for Amare: This one says the Wolves send Mike Miller, Randy Foye and Ryan Gomes to Boston for Ray Allen. Since Kahn lamented Friday how nobody in the media business calls anymore for confirmation and denial of such rumors, I texted Kahn about this one and asked if there was possibly any truth to it. He sent back a one word answer: “No.”


Minneapolis Star Tribune Blog


----------



## sologigolos

ehmunro said:


> I'm guessing they're trying to work out a deal centered around Tony, Rajon, & Giddens/Walker for a cost controlled player and a pick. Say Memphis for Conley & #2 or Sactown for Thompson & #4. That way they delay the payday for the supporting cast player and have a chance to add a new third wheel next summer.


More and more I think about this, more and more I like it, especially because I would love me some Rubio (though I'm sure Ainge would go in a diff direction).

If Rubio falls to 4, Rondo + etc for Thompson/Hawes + 4(Rubio) would be something I'd jump at. I think there are serviceable FA PGs we can sign with the exceptions.

And did someone say Memphis #2 for Perkins/Walker? What? Sure it's a weak draft, but really? Perkins has been great, but not #2 great, I think. Bill Walker may develop into something very useful, and I love the man, but I don't think he'll be a star--a very replaceable fan favorite.

You're telling me that we can have a starting 5 of

Spencer Hawes (or some scrub at C and Jason Thompson as the big man off the bench)
Garnett
Pierce
Rayray
Mike Conley (or whomever we can pick up in FA--you think 33 year old Andre Miller wouldn't take MLE for a run at the ring?)

(Jason Thompson)
(Mike Conley)
BBD
Powe
Giddens
Eddie House


and still have #2 and #4 picks? Really? 

Really?

Let's face it. The Big 3 gave us an amazing 2008 and a very entertaining 2009. They may still compete (I think next year we have a better chance than we did this year even if KG was healthy, due to Odom/Ariza and Hedo/Alston situations) in 2010. At the same time, we don't want to go through the depression that was 1993-2007. 

We would have a post-Big 3 core of Hawes/Thompson, BBD/Powe, Conley (or whoever we can flip in a trade), #2, #4, and maybe even Giddens (if he ever develops).


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## E.H. Munro

Well, Danny has certainly been active. That's a pretty daring proposal, a five player trade where the other team gets the two best players. And, oddly, Rip is one of the few guys that actually works well with Rondo given that his entire game is shooting off screens. You would think that a Ray for Rip/filler deal would make more sense. Though this deal definitely gives Boston the best depth in the NBA. While leaving them Stuckey as a lure for teams in the 5-10 range to land Tyreke Evans, who would slot in nicely next to Rip for the same reasons Rondo would.


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## Marcus13

That deal would have made both teams worse


----------



## Avalanche

I actually think it would have been a pretty solid deal from our end

but after seeing what SA was able to pull off with expiring role players today, I hope Danny is looking at doing something similar

there is talk of us being interested in FA Dahntay Jones aswell (Stephen A's twitter i think)

Spurs will definitely be looking at a front court guy in free agency, and can offer a starting spot... not great news for us


----------



## UNHFan

What is the thought of the board? Will a deal get done before Thursday's draft?


----------



## Avalanche

A sports Tv show (not sure which one, got this from somewhere else) is reporting

Rondo/Scal/Giddens for Conley/Gay is likely to go through...

WOW


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

why does it seem like ainges offseason plan is try to get rid of rondo as soon as possible? this team healthy started out 27-2 last year and would have been back in the finals if it wasnt for injuries...seeing that san antonio just got a semi-star wingman for absolutely nothing as did the lakers with gasol the year before why are we trying to trade one of the best young pgs in the league? everyone else is getting something for nothing why are we giving up rondo? if this goes thru everyone can see what ive known from day one...that ainge is a terrible gm who got lucky that his friend ran minnesota...hes awful


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## E.H. Munro

Isn't it time to change your handle to #1BillyWalkerFan? :bsmile:


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## Floods

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> why does it seem like ainges offseason plan is try to get rid of rondo as soon as possible? this team healthy started out 27-2 last year and would have been back in the finals if it wasnt for injuries...seeing that san antonio just got a semi-star wingman for absolutely nothing as did the lakers with gasol the year before why are we trying to trade one of the best young pgs in the league? everyone else is getting something for nothing why are we giving up rondo? if this goes thru everyone can see what ive known from day one...that ainge is a terrible gm who got lucky that his friend ran minnesota...hes awful


Pretty much, but Rudy Gay is a damn good player.

The fact that we don't have a first rounder is killing us right now, because that prevents us from possibly watering it down to Ray/pick/someone for Gay/contract junk.

Rondo
Gay
Pierce
Garnett
Perk

ghea


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## Floods

Scratch that, I guess Allen isn't involved in this proposal. So why the hell would we have Gay, Allen, *and* Pierce?


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## E.H. Munro

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Scratch that, I guess Allen isn't involved in this proposal. So why the hell would we have Gay, Allen, *and* Pierce?


Because last year having only Tony Allen to back up Pierce & Allen led to both players being run into the ground by playoff time?


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## Floods

Gay is not a backup, and Conley is pretty unproven. Rondo's a steep price to pay for a backup wing player.


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## E.H. Munro

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Gay is not a backup, and Conley is pretty unproven. Rondo's a steep price to pay for a backup wing player.


Neither is Lamar Odom, and yet that's what he was for the Lakers. Allen's here for one more season, so Gay becomes the sixth man for a year, and then slides into the starting five. And Conley's more proven than Rondo was prior to the 2008 season.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

ehmunro said:


> Isn't it time to change your handle to #1BillyWalkerFan? :bsmile:


never!...i will always keep the faith...

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/pl...gnews.asp?sport=NBA&id=424&line=115952&spln=1


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## Avalanche

Nothing more convincing came out about the memphis deal, but i guess we'll see what happens tomorrow


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## TheTruth34

Best case scenario

Fantastic 4 stays in tact (healthy), Lester Hudson takes tony allens spot in the rotation and shows flashes of a solid cuttino mobley-esque role player, everything is smooth and we win ring 18 in an epic battle against San Antonio.

Decent case scenario

Ainge trades Rondo, Jason Kidd signs a one-year deal, starters stay healthy and win ring 18. Kidd retires, No PG, the big three hang around get old and stay around 3rd, 4th seed. 

Worst case scenario

Ainge ****s up and trades Rondo, Kidd goes to Cleveland, Marbury resigns and starts, doesn't pass, shoots bricks, pierce complains gets hurt, garnett hurts his knee, ray allen averages 27 points a game with bill walker and glen davis starting. swept in the first round by magic. 

Ainge is dumb. other than acquiring Garnett and Allen, he's done nothing good for the organization.


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## LamarButler

I was looking down the list of free agents today, and I realized that we should really pursue a certain player.

Matt Barnes. 

We desperately need a backup SF, and Barnes is the best one available. He fits perfectly. He'd feed off drive and kicks/post ups all day with his three point shot. And he's not just a 3 point specialist- he's a decent creator. He's got some hesitation moves, some herky-jerky in-and-outs, and an effective spin to get off his floater. He even averaged 3 apg this season. Overall, his offense is good, averaging 10 ppg in 27 minutes. His defense is pretty good also- he's got top notch athleticism and he's just really energetic. He even grabbed 6 boards a game in those 27 minutes. He'd be a terrific addition- an energetic, athletic, all around player who fits to a T.


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## Avalanche

Matt Barnes was the guy i was despirate for the team to sign last off-season, if they make a run this time around i will be happy about it
another guy who just became available is Marquis Daniels, he could back up both the 2 and 3 and would come cheap


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## Avalanche

From another forum

"Gary Tanguay on ComCast Sportnet just said that through his sources Rasheed is on his way to Boston. More tonight a 10:00 p.m."

figure it must be KG and Sheed talkin on the phone, as we obviously arent technically allowed to contact FA's yet


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## Floods

Avalanche said:


> Matt Barnes was the guy i was despirate for the team to sign last off-season, if they make a run this time around i will be happy about it
> another guy who just became available is Marquis Daniels, he could back up both the 2 and 3 and would come cheap


I was thinking about him as an option. He seemed to really fall off the map in Indiana though.


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## Avalanche

> "The Celtics are targeting Wallace with the midlevel exception and sources say the team – which could be willing to pay a steep luxury tax – is also pursuing Phoenix’s Grant Hill"


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-celticswallace070109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


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## Floods

Ugh not him...


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## LamarButler

Grant Hill? That's the wrong Phoenix SF... Hill can't shoot, Barnes can.


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## c_dog

i've always said ainge has a preference for certain odd players. he has favorites in the league and would only pursue those couple of guys instead of looking at the overall freeagent pool and pick the best player available. that's why the celtics haven't brought in any significant free agents despite being a contender. i'd say their last impactful signing was pj brown.


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## Floods

Or maybe having Ray's, Pierce's, and Garnett's contracts all on the same team makes it a little difficult to sign 'significant' free agents.


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## sologigolos

holy crap
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4300407
please let's get Fernandez


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## LamarButler

I love that we're tryin to sign Rasheed, and we're tryin to sign a backup SF. But Danny is looking at the wrong SF. The perfect backup SF is on that same team, he must realize that. Hill is great and all, but he can't shoot, period. On a team with space liabilities like Rondo and Perkins, and double team drawers like Garnett and Perce, you'd better be getting shooters. Grant Hill IS NOT A SHOOTER. Matt Barnes IS.

The ideal, yet very realistic offseason for us is this

Re-sign Big Baby, Marbury, and Powe (for cheap). 

Sign Rasheed for a large portion of the MLE. Sign Barnes for cheap- he was paid less then a million last season.

Giving us:

PG- Rajon Rondo, Stephon Marbury, Gabe Pruitt, Lester Hudson
SG- Ray Allen, Eddie House, Tony Allen, J.R. Giddens
SF- Paul Pierce, Matt Barnes, Bill Walker
PF- Kevin Garnett, Glen Davis, Leon Powe
C- Kendrick Perkins, Rasheed Wallace

This would be by far the best team the Celtics have had with the Big 3. The bench would be extremely solid. Marbury and Rasheed make a nice inside-outside game, and both can create their own shots, which has always been problem for our bench. Then you'd have shooters all over the place- Rasheed we know can hit 3s as well as any big man, Big Baby has a superb mid range shot, Barnes knocks em down from 3, and Eddie is Eddie. Overall its a real talented bench.


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## Avalanche

just remember that if we sign sheed, re-sign baby and marbury... we end up with

Marbury
House
?
Davis
Sheed

On the bench, 3 decent shooters from deep already and Baby's range was extending the further into last season we got.

We just need a solid player who can spell Pierce and Ray without us losing too much, Hill is a good passer and solid from mid-range i think he would be ok

Barnes is a great fit too i agree, but i dont think we are that despirate for shooting that you say no to a player like hill because of it

we are interested in Mcdyess and Wilcox aswell apparently, probably as a back up plan to Sheed, or if baby doesnt re-sign


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## LamarButler

Getting Hill wouldn't be a bad thing, but I think Barnes would be ideal- someone you can plug into a lineup with the Big 3 or Rondo, and not have to worry about spacing problems.


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## Avalanche

True, i came accross an article earlier that listed the following guys as players the celtics have at least made an initial "what are you planning on doing" phone call to in free agency

Sheed
Mcdyess
Zaza
Wilcox
Hill
Daniels
Parker
Moon
Odom

Obviously things have further progressed with Sheed, and if he signs you can take Odom and Zaza off the list.. but still, i like the list


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## LamarButler

I don't understand why we wouldn't go after Barnes...


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## E.H. Munro

Because Grant Hill is a better overall player, and is at an age where all he wants is a ring, so signing him costs less as they're contenders. If Barnes is looking for more than the LLE then Boston needs to look elsewhere. Because 'Sheed is more important.


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## Floods

Imagine getting Sheed and McDyess in with KG and Perk? Holy **** would that be a loaded frontcourt.


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## LamarButler

Stephon says he's likely not coming back cause the Celtics offered a one year deal of the veteran's exception ($1.3 million). 

I believe he'll be back. We gave him the chance when he needed it, he seemed to build a good relationship with the team here, and he's got a chance at a championship here. I don't think a team will take a chance on him after seeing how rusty he was, and teams won't be confident enough in their locker rooms to take him. He'll look around and he won't get what he's looking for and he'll return to Boston.


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## Avalanche

Wizards apparently talking to Marbury but i dont know how far along thats going to go, I hope he does stick around for what we offered, we dont need to be trying to find another back up with a vet minimum contract

meanwhile, Doc is meeting with Grant Hill this week sometime


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## Avalanche

We are pushing with Miami to get Jamario Moon in a sign and trade, I'd love to get him here

Also, we are apparently 'one of ten' teams that have contacted Ike Diogu, if baby leaves he wouldnt be a bad option as a 4th big


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## Floods

Daniels is better than any other G/F option out there right now. Moon sucks. He really does. Might as well just hand the job to J.R. Giddens.


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## Avalanche

Seems to be some interest on our part in Bowen and Mbah e Moute from the Bucks too, only twitter updates though nothing serious


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## Floods

MAM would be good, I don't know he can play the 2 though. Bowen's probably washed up, I'd only sign him for the vet's minimum after we get a primary backup like Daniels (if we can even pull that off).


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## Avalanche

Yeh scrap that rumor, someone talking out of their a**

Boston Herald reporting we may have offered Big Baby for Moon... which obviously hasnt gone through, and couldnt really under the cba lol


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## Floods

http://www.freep.com/article/200907...--Pistons-turned-down-Davis-for-Maxiell-trade



> Yahoo! Sports reports that Boston offered the Detroit Pistons power forward Glen (Big Baby) Davis and guards J.R. Giddens and Gabe Pruitt for forward Jason Maxiell and a first-round pick. The Pistons supposedly turned down the trade "quickly."
> 
> The report also states that the Pistons, Trail Blazers and Hornets have tried to work a sign-and-trade deal for Davis.
> 
> It's no secret that the Pistons were interested in Big Baby to fill out their frontcourt, but that window seems to have closed with Detroit's signing of Chris Wilcox.
> 
> For what it's worth, even though this deal is past its prime, here are the 2008-09 scoring averages of the players involved: Davis (7.0), Pruitt (2.0), Giddens (0.7) and Maxiell (5.8).


First smart thing Dumars has done all summer.

If that had actually gone through... I'd literally double over in laughter.


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## Avalanche

Yeh getting that pick would have been awesome, worth a try i spose lol


In other news, Marbury has been talking to the fans a lot recently, seems like he still wants to come back


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## Floods

Avalanche said:


> Yeh getting that pick would have been awesome, worth a try i spose lol


Especially since Detroit will be a lottery team this year (really, they're awful). I mean, a lotto pick AND Big Baby's replacement?


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## Avalanche

davis could be headed to the nets apprently, yi, nachbar, dooling, williams and hayes could all be in discussions


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## E.H. Munro

How about we agree to take the BFCD off their hands if they let us have Courtney Lee?


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## Avalanche

oh i meant najera, not nachbar btw


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## Avalanche

Scal speaks: 


> I’m incredibly psyched. Winning championships is something I want to continue to do. I felt we were the best team in the league last year, the year before, and we will be the best team in the league this year. The key thing for us is limiting guys’ minutes and being healthy. Our bench needs to be able to sustain leads or build them.
> “Rasheed Wallace, if I had to name one guy that I’d want on our team he’d be the guy. The way Doc [ Rivers] uses power forwards, he’s a perfect fit for us. Defensively, he’s a dominant force and his basketball IQ is through the roof. [Daniels] is going to help Ray [ Allen] and Paul [ Pierce] get some rest throughout the season. And I’ve heard he can also play some point guard for us, so it would be nice to have him as backup, and maybe play with Eddie [ House] at [shooting guard]. He’s super versatile and that’s going to help us a lot.’’


http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2009/08/02/time_spent_not_spending/?page=1


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## sologigolos

do we not like luther head for backup point? i've always been pretty high on him.


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## Avalanche

theres a few options still out there... jason williams, tyron lue, marbury etc


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## Avalanche

Ty Lue has turned down a Europe offer.. still out there, not much else assuming we have no interest in Steph


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