# Merged Again: Artest OUT FOR YEAR...OFFICIAL



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Artest suspended for the rest of the season?*

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=1664172#post1664172


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## DiRTy DiRK (Jun 4, 2003)

*Artest OUT FOR YEAR...OFFICIAL*

check on ESPN


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

This is already here:

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126015&forumid=2


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Whatever, you think, he assaulted someone for laughing at him. That's not something Stern will tolerate. 

He got exactly what he deserved. Attacking an innocent fan is worse than Sprewell choking his coach.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Whatever, you think, he assaulted someone for laughing at him. That's not something Stern will tolerate.

He got exactly what he deserved. Attacking an innocent fan is worse than Sprewell choking his coach.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

There's tennis on ESPN.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

It looks Artest for the year.

JO- 25
Stephen Jackson 30
Wallace 6
Anthony Johnson (didn't even know what he did) 5
4 others 1 game suspension
A little overboard IMO by the NBA- Players association is gonna fight this
Precedent isn't there either - Maxwell didn't get this much for going into the stands when someone taunted him


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## .fusion. (Apr 8, 2004)

wow... this will wreck my fantasy league this season


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

:|


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## lakegz (Mar 31, 2004)

Excellent!


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Pacers fans should all boycott the NBA. This is absolutely unreasonable.


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

****ing bull****! Players Union will fight this!


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> It looks Artest for the year.
> 
> JO- 25
> ...


The PA fought Sprewell's suspension too. This was way worse than that.

Sprewell attacked an employee of the NBA. Artest attacked an _innocent_ customer of the NBA.


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## nima86 (Jul 30, 2002)

stern will hear bout this from player association


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

hats off to david stern, finally a sports commisioner has the balls to come down on behavior thats a disgrace to the sport. now i ask all the people who thought the pacers were justified, was it worth it?


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

The Pistons got rid of their main competition for the Eastern crown. All it took was a push to Artest.

Cheaters!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Good. He deserves every game of it.

I've been saying from the begining he would be gone for the year nobody believed me and called me unbelievably biased and a raging homer.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

Does season include playoffs?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> Pacers fans should all boycott the NBA. This is absolutely unreasonable.


It's wonderful.

Thugs have to learn lessons in the only way they understand: Extreme force.


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## J19 (Nov 16, 2004)

this is unfair


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

absolutely unreasonable. As ive stated before, had ben wallace not been a dumbass about the whole thing and not gotten that entire crowd riled up by 
1)pushing artest in the throat
2)yelling excessively and being forced to be held back by multiple teammates
3)escalating the event even FURTHER by throing his headband/towel right at artest.
he got the crowd angered, and for him to basically get the same suspension as someone i didnt even know got involved(anthony johnson) is just a flat out joke. artest getting a 20 game suspension would have been acceptable to me, however getting a year long ban(and obviously this had something to do with his prior altercations, which shouldnt have been taken into account for this anyway) 
im calling this one of the more unjust suspensions in the history of the nba.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Pacers fans should all boycott the NBA. This is absolutely unreasonable.


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

As if the East wasn't weak enough...now the team that I thought would really spring up and take the championship has lost one of its principal components...shows just how much of a sell-out Stern is, cheaply endorsing drunken hooligans...I'll never support Detroit again and that crowd will always be a bunch of punks to me....mother**** Stern for being such a little ***** and not seeing this situation from everybody's perspective...he hasn't done the basketball world any favors by taking away the best perimeter defender in the game...he's just incurred the wrath of many people, Pacers fans and non-Pacers fans...the fact that most of the former players were on Artest's side speaks for itself...**** you David Stern...I hope you find yourself in the middle of a mob of angry Pacers fans...maybe that will teach you a thing or two about hooligans...


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> Pacers fans should all boycott the NBA. This is absolutely unreasonable.


It's wonderful.

Thugs have to learn lessons in the only way they understand: Extreme force.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> It's wonderful.
> ...


and drunk fans need to learn lessons the only way they understand: catchin an *** whoopin.


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## nima86 (Jul 30, 2002)

EVERYONE vote for ARTEST AND JO for All-star


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## lakegz (Mar 31, 2004)

if you say that the fans deserve it and that is your main point, you are totally missing the issue. This is what i expected.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> It's wonderful.
> ...


Morons have to learn lessons in the only way _they_ understand: Swift jabs to the face.


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## J19 (Nov 16, 2004)

this is BS, the hell with Stern, if Artest goes out for the whole season then Wallace deserves 60 games Jackson for 65 O'Neil for 60






this is bs!!! wtf 30 was too much


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I snapped up David Harrison for my fantasy league. Only because Fred Jones was already taken mere minutes before.

The Pacers are not a concern without Artest. He is their loony heart and soul.

JO has to step up and become a top 5 player now, or shut up forever. If these suspensions stand, the Pacers are in a ton of trouble.

What are Pacers fans going to do when the Pistons come to town now? There's got to be a lot of bitterness over this. There better be amazing security on that christmas day game.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

I don't know why so many of you guys are so happy. This is an extremely sad outcome for real basketball fans. 

Not only is it destroying the entire Pacers season, but we don't get to see 2 of the best players in the league play for quite some time. Who knows what effect this will have on the rest of Artest's career. I really feel for the Pacers fans, some of the best, most loyal fans you will find in any sport. 



This is a damn joke, there is no way this can float. 

Stern is gone.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

I am glad Artest got suspended 1 year thats where he belongs.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>nima86</b>!
> EVERYONE vote for ARTEST AND JO for All-star


This is a good idea! I LIKE!


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tooeasy</b>!
> 
> and drunk fans need to learn lessons the only way they understand: catchin an *** whoopin.


One attached to a season long suspension.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

I guess Stern found a way to get more people to hate him and for people that already hate him (like myself) to hate him even more!


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Ridiculous. Thank you David Stern for being an absolute retard. 

Thank you for killing the competition in the eastern conference. 

Thank you for increasing the chance of an extended lockout by building tension between the players association and owners association. 

Yeah, it'll happen again, and that player will get a huge suspension too. Then it will happen again, and everyone will say "what can we do to prevent this?" 

You cannot prevent it if you let the fans do whatever the **** they want 100% of the time, and expect the players to put up with being spit on every night 100% of the time.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> Morons have to learn lessons in the only way _they_ understand: Swift jabs to the face.


Why not have the moron fans arrested and the athletes stay on the floor? Had Artest not charged into the crowd, the riot would not have happened. They could have had security arrest the beer-thrower and it's a boring night.


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## J19 (Nov 16, 2004)

Stern is in NYC, he won't make it out alive


I'll be back later


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*...*

this is what I posted the other day... pretty accurate. I knew Stern would hammer the players.... right or wrong, he's got to show that he is protecting the fan base.... we, the fans, are his cash cow... the players are just his "employees".

[Obviously Indy is gonna get decimated with these suspenisons, all three of them O'Neal, Jackson, and Artest could get significant time off... Stern is gonna hammer them really hard. He will not tolerate players attacking the fan base no matter what the provocation. With Artest charging the crowd, Jackson punching anyone in sight, and O'Neal' s sliding haymaker... Stern has got to be cringing every time he sees this. I would be surprised if all of them got less than 10 game suspension. I'm thinking Stern will give O'Neal 15, Jackson 20, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him suspend Artest for the rest of the season. This isn't my opinion, it's just what I think Stern will do.

Wallace and the Pistons will be ok. Wallace will get less than 5 game suspension, and Detroit is deep enough (McDyess and Sheed). They will be ok, and I think they will finish with a better record than Clev. No doubt tho, Wed (?) when Clev plays Detroit, they'll be without Wallace... so that helps a little!]


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

BOYCOTT THE NBA!!

**** STERN!!


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## Philo (Feb 13, 2003)

I'm done with the NBA. These players are grown men, they don't need nannies. This league has been dying for years, this is the fork.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Pacers fans should be blaming Artest for making the wrong decision.

Artest KNEW that he will get suspended if he fights a fan. JO and Stephen Jackson KNEW that even though they were gonna hit people for *pride*, they KNEW that Stern will not tolerate this.


You people still sticking up for Artest and hoping Indiana was gonna be a contender this season are contradicting each other. All Artest had to do was react normal and professional and they lock to atleast be an Eastern Finals contender.


But... rage, lack of self control, and the fact that Artest was a nutcase... he just seriously jeopardize Pacer's chances of even making the playoffs.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> I don't know why so many of you guys are so happy.


Because justice is being served.



> This is an extremely sad outcome for real basketball fans.


Nice backhand insult. We ARE real fans.



> Not only is it destroying the entire Pacers season, but we don't get to see 2 of the best players in the league play for quite some time.


Don't want to see them. They should have checked the thuglife at the door. They didn't, and forfeited their right to play on the worlds stage. I'll enjoy the rest: Shaq, Wade, LeBron,...

No need for the thugs.


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## lakegz (Mar 31, 2004)

Why hate Stern, did he rush into the stands or do something horrible. ive been in a cave the past few days, did Stern inflame a near riot?


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

The only fans that are happy about this are Pistons and Heat fans, now the Pacers are out of the way.:no: 

I thought 30 games just right, the season? Horrbile. Even if they appeal this, I dont think Stern will overturn anything. The Eastern conference just got a lot less interesting.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> You cannot prevent it if you let the fans do whatever the **** they want 100% of the time, and expect the players to put up with being spit on every night 100% of the time.


You're completely off-base. This isn't the first time things have been thrown. When it happens, the fans responsible are *arrested*. So, fans don't get away with it.

Artest was completely in the wrong for not letting it get handled normally and *attacking the wrong guy*. Keep that in mind...he didn't even attack the guy who threw the beer.


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## LuckyAC (Aug 12, 2004)

Any fans who value their right to not be violently assaulted by a 250 pound maniac while they are sitting innocently in the stands applaud the decision. If he had attacked the one particular fan who had actually thrown the beer at him, it would still be inexcusable, but it wouldn't be so bad.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Going into the stands to attack an *innocent* fan is one of the worst things an athlete has ever done during a game.


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

So wtf are they supposed to do ? 

Fred Jones : Artest is getting mobbed up there !

JO : Oh but I can't go help out my friend and teammate because it would be a pride thing and it would get me suspended ! So I'm going to stand here like a little b**ch, twidling my thumbs and hope that Ron doesn't get too banged up !


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> You're completely off-base. This isn't the first time things have been thrown. When it happens, the fans responsible are *arrested*. So, fans don't get away with it.
> ...


I agree that arrests are enough, IF the players aren't also arrested. Otherwise I don't think it's fair for the players to get suspended on top of the arrests, when all the fan gets is the arrest.

I want piston blood.


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## lakegz (Mar 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> You're completely off-base. This isn't the first time things have been thrown. When it happens, the fans responsible are *arrested*. So, fans don't get away with it.
> ...


somebody's speaking some sense.

The near riot that ensued as a result of the actions taken by inexcusable NBA players has no precedent in the NBA, Stern HAS to come down hard to save face for the league. This is about more then just the fight, this is about preserving the NBA's image and making sure this doesnt happen again.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

FACT: Stern suspended Sprewell for a season for choking his coach.

FACT: The person Artest attacked didn't do anything.

FACT: Sprewell got a season for attacking an NBA employee. Artest got a season for attacking an NBA customer (innocent customer).

Unless you want to argue the Sprewell punishment was too harsh, you have no grounds for arguing this one was.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LuckyAC</b>!
> Any fans who value their right to not be violently assaulted by a 250 pound maniac while they are sitting innocently in the stands applaud the desicion.


:clap:


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

You guys still complaining about why Stern is so strict dont get the big picture at all.

This is for the safety of fans and players for future games. Stern is sending a message that this isnt tolerated. If Stern let these guys off with soft punishment, this sends the wrong messale to fans and players about *altercations* in the future.

Stern doesnt want this to turn into europe style soccer, where hooligans form to physically hurt opposing teams and fans.

You guys wishing to turn off NBA because of this, good ridance. You wanna see more fights then watch boxing or wrestling, this is basketball. I dont want people fearing to attend games because they know opposing team fans will provoke players to fight them.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

If the only rationale for giving 70 games vs. 30 is deterrance, then this is an idiotic decision. 30 games is more than enough to get the point across, suspending Artest for the season is just beating a dead horse.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

i think it's excessive. i think it creates animosity between the players and the fans, and the players and the front office. it may give the message to players not to do it again, but it empowers fans. the penalties should have been strong, but less than this. they certainly should have considered some of the sentiment from players who at least could emphasize with and understand artests' response. 40 for artest would have been alot.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>1 Penny</b>!
> If Stern let these guys off with soft punishment, this sends the wrong messale to fans and players about *altercations* in the future.
> 
> Stern doesnt want this to turn into europe style soccer, where hooligans form to physically hurt opposing teams and fans.
> ...


:clap:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Going into the stands to attack an *innocent* fan is one of the worst things an athlete has ever done during a game.


I don't think any fan in that section was innocent. The guy that SJax clocked threw his beer at Artest after Artest was restrained. So he wasn't innocent. The guy who Artest first jumped, wasn't innocent. Just look at his face, he was laughing and pointing like he was the mack...restitution, I sez. Karma is a *****. If dude was completely innocent Artest wouldn't have clobbered him.

And for the one supposedly innocent fan, there were hundreds of fans throwing whatever they had in their hands at Pacers players who went without punishment, and will probably continue to go without punishment.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> Because justice is being served.


No justice is not being served. Stern is going on a powertrip. 




> Nice backhand insult. We ARE real fans.


No you're not despite what you tell yourself. 



> Don't want to see them. They should have checked the thuglife at the door. They didn't, and forfeited their right to play on the worlds stage. I'll enjoy the rest: Shaq, Wade, LeBron,...


Don't say anything unless you have been in the same situation.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

Why are people acting like 30 games is a soft punishment? How many 30 game suspensions have been handed out in league history? 3? It's almost half the season.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think any fan in that section was innocent. The guy that SJax clocked threw his beer at Artest after Artest was restrained. So he wasn't innocent. The guy who Artest first jumped, wasn't innocent. Just look at his face, he was laughing and pointing like he was the mack...restitution, I sez.



PLAYERS CANNOT ENTER THE STANDS!


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think any fan in that section was innocent. The guy that SJax clocked threw his beer at Artest after Artest was restrained. So he wasn't innocent. The guy who Artest first jumped, wasn't innocent. Just look at his face, he was laughing and pointing like he was the mack...restitution, I sez. Karma is a *****. If dude was completely innocent Artest wouldn't have clobbered him.
> ...


Yeah, a fan talking trash. That's deserving of being attacked. It's not like fans ever talk trash or anything.  

So Artest gets a beer thrown on him and he gets a green light to attack anyone he wants. No, that's stupid.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> No you're not despite what you tell yourself.


Welcome to my ignore list.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

How come David Stern gets to make the decision himself, shouldn't a committee make it.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Arclite</b>!
> Why are people acting like 30 games is a soft punishment? How many 30 game suspensions have been handed out in league history? 3? It's almost half the season.


Sprewell - 68 games. What Artest did was worse. Sprewell attacked an employee, Artest attacked a fan. Both attacks were unwarranted.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> but it empowers fans.


I don't think it empowers fans at all. NBA franchises should make it clear that any fans who throw things will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Will fans feel that being arrested, possible fines and jail time is a good trade-off for the one-in-a-thousand chance that they touch off a riot that gets a bunch of opposing players suspended?

Seems like a stretch.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

I never thought Id see the day where I sided with Pan Mengtu and Minstrel....


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> You're completely off-base. This isn't the first time things have been thrown. When it happens, the fans responsible are *arrested*. So, fans don't get away with it.


They need to do more than arrest people for just throwing things. These fans scream things at games that are completely inappropriate and aren't doing anything to support their team. 

There is a reason that every player and coach I've seen interviewed about the matter sided with Artest. They know and understand how ridiculous some of these fans in the front rows are on a nightly basis. 

I even heard Steve Kerr, I believe it was him, who said a fan continued to taunt him and mock his dead father who had passed away a few days prior for an entire game. I don't care what people say, that is *not* part of being a professional basketball player.


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## UndergroundBaller (Nov 17, 2004)

*This isn't a sport!!!*

There are no words to express for what I think of Stern and the NBA!!! The NBA is ****ing joke! The Pistons just eliminated their only competition in the east. Only a ****ing idiot wouldn't guess that the Heat and Pistons are going to the Eastern conference Finals now. 
NBA isn't a sport; it's a ****ing scripted money makin machine.
Stern wants Heat and the Pistons to succed...
It's so obvious
If LeBron did the exact same thing he would only miss like 10 games because he's the NBA poster child..

NBA is a ****ing joke!!


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

oh yes, that poor INNOCENT fan that was in the stands pumpin his fists in the air rooting for his fellow drunk buddies that bombed artest with beer, that poor thing. 
did artest **** up and go after the wrong person? yes. 
was that person completely innocent? no. 
did he even LAND a punch on that person? no.
if that fan wouldve simply put his hand up and not looked like he was the guilty culprit then artest wouldnt have pushed him to the ground.
i dont care how you look at it, ben wallace got this whole thing going by riling up those fans with multiple mistakes, and by him throwing that damn towel at artests face he was basically condoning those fans to do the exact same thing.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> So Artest gets a beer thrown on him and he gets a green light to attack anyone he wants. No, that's stupid.


The sad thing is, this is what a lot of posters seem to think around here. 

Provocation doesn't justify retaliation. This was one of the first lessons we learned as toddlers. Can somebody tell me why this doesn't apply to NBA players?


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

The fans that participated need to be held liable too.

And I wish the Palace wouldn't be able to sell beer for the rest of the season.

Unfortunetly, the latter won't happen.

But now, the fans that took part in this need to be held responsible as well.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Artest never attacked that guy, he grabbed him by the neck and pushed him down but he never struck him from what I have seen.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think any fan in that section was innocent. The guy that SJax clocked threw his beer at Artest after Artest was restrained. So he wasn't innocent.


He threw the beer long *after* Artest had already attacked the section of fans.

When Artest attacked, the people he attacked had done nothing.



> The guy who Artest first jumped, wasn't innocent. Just look at his face, he was laughing and pointing like he was the mack...


He _was_ innocent. Laughing and pointing is allowed. Had Artest laughed and pointed, instead of charging the stands, he'd have no suspension.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tooeasy</b>!
> oh yes, that poor INNOCENT fan that was in the stands pumpin his fists in the air rooting for his fellow drunk buddies that bombed artest with beer, that poor thing.
> did artest **** up and go after the wrong person? yes.
> was that person completely innocent? no.
> ...


So he's guilty bec. he put his hands in the air and cheered.

And that is deserving of what he got?

Or is he deserving of what he got bec. he looked guilty?


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

The first guy Artest attacked is in line for a nice payday.


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

This really pisses me off that a fan can have such a huge impact on their teams season. All this fan had to do was throw a bottle at Ron Artest and BOOM, Artest is suspended the rest of the season, so basically the fan just helped his team (Pistons) and hurt the team fighting them for the division (Pacers). Oh yeah and also the fact that the fan is probably going to get Thousands of dolla dolla bills to go on top of that. I'm sure he is living the life right now

It just isn't right


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Because justice is being served.
> ...


YOU'RE JUST HAPPY BECAUSE THE BULLS HAVE A BETTER CHANCE AT WINNING 15 GAMES NOW!!!


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> Sprewell - 68 games. What Artest did was worse. Sprewell attacked an employee, Artest attacked a fan. Both attacks were unwarranted.


Choking someone is far different from shoving someone to the ground, and then hitting someone in a violent situation where you feel threatened. My point is that people are saying Artest needs to be suspended for the season because the NBA can't go soft or else players will think they will get away with it. For the purpose of deterrence, please tell me what the difference is between 30 games and 70? If someone is about to leap into the stands, is their line of thinking going to be, "****, I can do this no problem, Artest did it and ONLY got 30 games!" No. If they even think about something like that, I'm sure 30 games is a harsh enough punishment.

On the other hand, seeing a team's season ruined by doing something as simple as throwing a beverage at someone is just begging fans to attempt to provoke a player on a rival team.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think it empowers fans at all. NBA franchises should make it clear that any fans who throw things will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
> ...


the fans generated the response that led to the suspension. they made themselves part of the action, and now they'll affect the rest of the season. the culture could be forever changed, imo.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Here's a hypothetical for you:

Put Kobe Bryant or LeBron James in the spot of Ron Artest. Pretend this situation unfolded and they did the _exact_ same things that Ron did, what would they get? I'd be willing to be every penny I have neither of them would've got a suspension half as long as Artest's, and that's what pisses me off the most about this. Yes he has a history, but that's no excuse whatsoever to suspend him for the entire season.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Lets clear up another thing. Fans throw everything from paper airplanes, to soda bottles, to candy bars all the time. I have been to many games and seen it many times. Rarely have I ever seen the culprit get caught.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

David Stern just said that the penalty would of been less if it was a different player. He said he couldn't leave out Artest's past history.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> He _was_ innocent. Laughing and pointing is allowed. Had Artest laughed and pointed, instead of charging the stands, he'd have no suspension.


do you care to tell me just exactly what artest had to laugh about during that whole thing? 
since several piston posters on this board seem to think that by artest simply laying onthat table he was "mocking the fans" how exactly do you think theyd take it if he just stood up on the scorers table and pointed at them? probably wouldve been pelting with 50 more cups of beer, thats my guess.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> "The message the league sent was so powerful to players that they'll never do that again," Pistons CEO Tom Wilson said.
> --
> "I'm sick about that for Indiana. I'm devastated for them," Pistons coach Larry Brown said. "And we lost our heart and soul."


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...41121/ap_on_sp_bk_ne/bkn_pacers_pistons_brawl


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Here's a hypothetical for you:
> 
> Put Kobe Bryant or LeBron James in the spot of Ron Artest. Pretend this situation unfolded and they did the _exact_ same things that Ron did, what would they get? I'd be willing to be every penny I have neither of them would've got a suspension half as long as Artest's, and that's what pisses me off the most about this. Yes he has a history, but that's no excuse whatsoever to suspend him for the entire season.


An example of the league always trying to keep a brutha down :no:


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Sprewell - 68 games. What Artest did was worse. Sprewell attacked an employee, Artest attacked a fan. Both attacks were unwarranted.


Artest pushed a fan's head in the stands and later hit a fan on the court. Sprewell tried to murder his coach.


----------



## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Arclite</b>!
> 
> 
> Choking someone is far different from shoving someone to the ground, and then hitting someone in a violent situation where you feel threatened. My point is that people are saying Artest needs to be suspended for the season because the NBA can't go soft or else players will think they will get away with it. For the purpose of deterrence, please tell me what the difference is between 30 games and 70? If someone is about to leap into the stands, is their line of thinking going to be, "****, I can do this no problem, Artest did it and ONLY got 30 games!" No. If they even think about something like that, I'm sure 30 games is a harsh enough punishment.


Artest attacked the wrong guy. He obviously didn't know who did it.

Attacking a customer is worse than attacking an employee, especially when both are 100% _innocent_ of wrong doing.

If you think the punishment is too much, fine, as long as you also think Sprewell's punishment was too much. I can live with that.


----------



## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...41121/ap_on_sp_bk_ne/bkn_pacers_pistons_brawl


You lost your heart and soul for 6 games you jackoff.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Here's a hypothetical for you:
> 
> Put Kobe Bryant or LeBron James in the spot of Ron Artest. Pretend this situation unfolded and they did the _exact_ same things that Ron did, what would they get? I'd be willing to be every penny I have neither of them would've got a suspension half as long as Artest's,


Stern said Artests prior behaviour played into it.


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

Artest Wont make 5.5 Million of the 6 million dollar contract this season.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> They need to do more than arrest people for just throwing things.


More than arrest? Like what?



> These fans scream things at games that are completely inappropriate and aren't doing anything to support their team.
> ...
> I even heard Steve Kerr, I believe it was him, who said a fan continued to taunt him and mock his dead father who had passed away a few days prior for an entire game. I don't care what people say, that is *not* part of being a professional basketball player.


True. There are a lot of *******s in the world. Ignoring them and not being baited into violence is part of being a human, not just a professional basketball player.


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## SacTown16 (Feb 2, 2004)

1 year for artest = Justified

A very sick act by Artest, it's reinforcement, he will learn from this and hopefully comes back next year as a new man.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> Artest never attacked that guy, he grabbed him by the neck and pushed him down but he never struck him from what I have seen.


You don't have to punch someone to attack them :uhoh: :uhoh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

ridiculous. so i spose nothing will be done about the crowd in detroit? 

artest will have plenty of time to promote his rap cd now.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Artest attacked the wrong guy. He obviously didn't know who did it.
> 
> Attacking a customer is worse than attacking an employee, especially when both are 100% _innocent_ of wrong doing.
> ...


What? The status of the person attacked has far less to do than the attack itself. Which is worse, if I'm a wal-mart employee and I go on a rampage and maim my manager with a chainsaw or if I *****slap a ******* shopping for toilet paper on aisle five?

You say "attacked" as if Artest put the man's life in danger. Yes, the guy was innocent but he sustained no injury and all Artest did was knock him to the ground. Carlesimo had reason to fear for his LIFE, Sprewell went crazed and started choking him.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

THis is ridiculous, Artest and the fans who appreciate his game are losing a season of him in his prime or close to it. The Pacers and all of their fans just lost a chance at a championship.

This is a damn joke. Players union better get to work.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest pushed a fan's head in the stands and later hit a fan on the court. Sprewell tried to murder his coach.


An attack is an attack in the eyes of the law. If Sprewell tried to murder his coach he would have been charged with attempted murder, and I don't recall that happening.

The difference is, in the eyes of the NBA, one victim was an employee one was a customer.


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## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> Artest never attacked that guy, he grabbed him by the neck and pushed him down but he never struck him from what I have seen.


This is the worst post I've read on bbb.net.

Congrats.


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## LuckyAC (Aug 12, 2004)

The suspension would still have been justified without Artest's past, but I don't know why you are saying that past actions shouldn't be taken into account, anyway. The real legal system factors that in - just look at the Three Strikes Law, where the third felony gets life in prison, regardless of its seriousness. Someone who has been punished before and still hasn't learned obviously needs harsher measures.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> the fans generated the response that led to the suspension. they made themselves part of the action, and now they'll affect the rest of the season. the culture could be forever changed, imo.


Yes, all that happened. Due to a freak occurrence that has never happened before despite fans having done the same actions before.

So how does this empower a fan? What do they learn? That they can trade being arrested for an infinitesimal chance of affecting a season?

As I said, it's a stretch.


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

*edited: No personal attacks* act as if Artest just went up and attacked the fan for no reason at all. If some *edited: No masked cursing* drunk jerk through something at me when he shouldent have, I would have run up on the fool as well

So you guys are trying to tell me that we as fans now have the right to abuse athletes anyway we want and our reward for it is getting thousands of dollars and helping our team's future in the process by getting the guy suspended?


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## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> It's wonderful.
> ...


then why in the ****ing hell isnt ben wallace out for the year


----------



## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> So he's guilty bec. he put his hands in the air and cheered.
> ...


what exactly did this guy "get"? seriously, you act as if artest ran up there, ripped the guys arm off and began clubbing him to death with it. he simply got pushed to the ground, no serious harm was inflicted on him at all.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HeinzGuderian</b>!
> 
> You don't have to punch someone to attack them :uhoh: :uhoh: :laugh: :laugh:


So it looks like I grew up attacking my brother all the time. 

Weird.


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> They need to do more than arrest people for just throwing things. These fans scream things at games that are completely inappropriate and aren't doing anything to support their team.
> ...


If my memory serves me correctly, Steve Kerr's father was killed in some sort of military action involving palestine as a member of the Israeli army. It was during the season, and Kerr had a road game within the next couple of days. The fans started chanting PLO! PLO! PLO! with Kerr right there on the court. 

Fans can do some of the most brutish, inconsiderate, obscene, repulsive things imaginable. This incident should definitely force professional sports leagues to consider what things can be done to stop negative player/fan interactions. Detroit fans were completely innapropriate, mostly because of the amount of alchohol they had consumed. Get people liquored up, and it doesn't take much before barbarian/mob mentality is ruling. 

Unfortunately, I don't see how this has anything to do with what these Pacer players did. Fans have been much more provacative in the past, and nothing has ever happened. The onus is on the player here. Not only did they attack fans, they instigated the physical part of the brawl. They deserve exactly what they got, and I wouldn't be surprised is several of these guys get arrested. 

The whole "tough guy" "the fans were rude / justifies any reaction on the part of the players" argument just doesn't hold water. Not with the NBA, not with the law, and it really shouldn't around here either.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> *edited* act as if Artest just went up and attacked the fan for no reason at all. If some *edited* drunk jerk through something at me when he shouldent have, I would have run up on the fool as well
> 
> So you guys are trying to tell me that we as fans now have the right to abuse athletes anyway we want and our reward for it is getting thousands of dollars and helping our team's future in the process by getting the guy suspended?


*Wrong*. Artest attacked a guy who was laughing at him.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> An attack is an attack in the eyes of the law. If Sprewell tried to murder his coach he would have been charged with attempted murder, and I don't recall that happening.
> 
> The difference is, in the eyes of the NBA, one victim was an employee one was a customer.


Go choke someone on the street, and then knock someone to the ground and see which is going to result in a misdemeanor and which results in a felony.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> More than arrest? Like what?


Fire them from their job, ban them from NBA games for life, take away their freedom to drink in public places, cut off their..... let's not go there. Anyway you get the point, just a few suggestions.


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

One guy we should feel bad for in all this is Reggie Miller...this year might have been his best chance for the championship, but it gets taken away from him just like that!


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Springsteen</b>!
> 
> 
> This is the worst post I've read on bbb.net.
> ...


And this is the worst post I've read on bbb.net


Congrats to you.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tooeasy</b>!
> 
> do you care to tell me just exactly what artest had to laugh about during that whole thing?


My point was not that Artest should have done or had any reason to. My point was that laughing and pointing is allowed, in a basketball game, on the street, wherever.

Attacking someone is not.


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## Fenway (Sep 3, 2004)

When was the last time Artest did anything out of anger ????
I remember him throwing the monitor and I am sure there have been more but can someone clue me in when the other things happened?

Ben Wallace started the fight, then he punched Artest after a foul on the court where Artest hardly touched him and then after he punched Artest and Artest did not retaliate he went and threw a towel at him while he was away from the fight and he only got 6 games. That is where I have the problem.

If Artest gets the whole seaosn and Jermaine 26 and Steven 30 then Ben Wallace getting 6 games isn't fair punishment.


----------



## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>texan</b>!
> 
> 
> then why in the ****ing hell isnt ben wallace out for the year


Because he pushed a player hard. That happens serveral times a season. He got the same punishment that is handed out when fights between players happen.

Stern was entirely consistent with precedent. He even handed out the 1 day suspensions to Billups, Coleman, and Miller for getting out of their seats during the initial scuffle on the court. The 1 season suspension is comparable to what happened to Sprewell.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> More than arrest? Like what?


Providing an environment that isn't so hostile. Heckling the opposing team should not be allowed, and it should be banned from all NBA arenas. When fans ridicule and heckle players on the opposing team in such brutal ways, that builds anger. When fans actually root for the team they came to root for, thats positive. 

Sure, everyone says it will never happen, but thats only because the league is too worried about blaming the players for losing control in one game, out of thousands and thousands where they restrained themselves from giving in to being hammered about their personal life for two hours straight. 



> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> True. There are a lot of *******s in the world. Ignoring them and not being baited into violence is part of being a human, not just a professional basketball player.


So when a relative dies, or something tragic happens in your life, you have random strangers heckling you standing 10 feet away while you work?


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> So it looks like I grew up attacking my brother all the time.
> ...


I used to attack my brother all the time. Just because I wasn't intending to seriously hurt him doesn't mean I didn't attack him. I dont think you know what attack means...


----------



## BenDengGo (Feb 1, 2004)

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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> Artest never attacked that guy, he grabbed him by the neck and pushed him down but he never struck him from what I have seen.


When did this cease being assault?


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> *Wrong*. Artest attacked a guy who was laughing at him.


Yes I know that, Artest obviously thought he was the one who threw it at him, and I still would have kicked that guys as also, if some cocky little ******* is going to humiliate me in front of an entire arena full of people i'm going to go kick his ***

And what also pissed me off was seeing the real idiot who threw the bottle just standing there with a sour look on his face like he wanted to kill Artest. Stupid *******s deserve some blood


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Arclite</b>!
> 
> 
> What? The status of the person attacked has far less to do than the attack itself. Which is worse, if I'm a wal-mart employee and I go on a rampage and maim my manager with a chainsaw or if I *****slap a ******* shopping for toilet paper on aisle five?
> ...


No, of course not. We're not talking about punishments handed down by the law. We're talking about a business' internal punishment.

A better comparison would be an employee punching another employee vs. punching a customer. Wal-Mart would hand out a stricter punishment for the latter, probably a firing.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> An attack is an attack in the eyes of the law. If Sprewell tried to murder his coach he would have been charged with attempted murder, and I don't recall that happening.
> ...


In my eyes it was attempted murder. Grabbing someone around their throat and choking them is attempted murder.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> No, of course not. We're not talking about punishments handed down by the law. We're talking about a business' internal punishment.
> ...


How is that a better comparison? Artest didn't choke the fan. He knocked him to the ground. I think the decision of this has less to do with the Sprewell incident than it does with Ron Artest's "history". I like hobojoe's point about James and Bryant, and I believe it.


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

Get this through your thick skulls, Athletes are Human Beings also

Just because they get paid millions of dollars doesent mean they can't be angry sometimes


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> An attack is an attack in the eyes of the law. If Sprewell tried to murder his coach he would have been charged with attempted murder, and I don't recall that happening.
> ...


yes, and attack is also classifed in varying categories.
first, second, third and fourth degree assault.
first, second, and third degree reckless endangerment.
using the "attack is an attack" arugement doesnt really help because there are huge variations of the crime. 
artests accept considering it was provoked would have probably got him a 3 month probation ruling had this been a street incident, pretty mild compared to being forced to sit out an entire season of basketball and lose almost 6 million dollars.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Fandom is out of control. I think next time I see some fan being a jerk, I'm going to clock them for the players. :upset: 

Maybe I should test commissioner Stern's turn the other cheek philosophy. I'm going down to Madison Avenue and throw beers in his, Graniks and Jackson's face. Then we'll see what happens. I assume I will be mercilessly beaten to a bloody pulp by NBA security.  

Detroit better get penalized for this. Ben Wallace should have gotten 15 games for this ****.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...41121/ap_on_sp_bk_ne/bkn_pacers_pistons_brawl


You lost your heart and soul for 6 games, you rookie-sabotaging freak.


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Fandom is out of control. I think next time I see some fan being a jerk, I'm going to clock them for the players. :upset:
> 
> Maybe I should test commissioner Stern's turn the other cheek philosophy. I'm going down to Madison Avenue and throw beers in his, Graniks and Jackson's face. Then we'll see what happens. I assume I will be mercilessly beaten to a bloody pulp by NBA security.
> ...


Agreed


----------



## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> Get this through your thick skulls, Athletes are Human Beings also
> 
> Just because they get paid millions of dollars doesent mean they can't be angry sometimes


They can be angry all they want. They just can't go into the stands and beat people up because of it.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> In my eyes it was attempted murder. Grabbing someone around their throat and choking them is attempted murder.



Well then, Artest would have been justified in killing Wallace, if he had chosen too.


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## PDB (Aug 16, 2002)

I think the suspensions are legit, the Pacers are dead, but, the argument of 'the NBA won't be as exciting anymore' is not a good reason to excuse punishment for beating up fans.

Yeah, some of the fans are jerks, and the guy who threw the beer had it coming, but, that was one beer from one guy. Apparently the guy Artest initially attacked wasn't even the guy who threw the beer. That is what inflamed the fans, not Ben Wallace shouting. If I was in the stands and some temporarily crazed player came up and started pushing people around for no apparent reason, I don't know what I'd do, but I wouldn't be happy about it.

*The players were out of control, much more so than the fans that are being villainized so much.* 

Fan's talk trash, it's what they do. They do it because it can perhaps help their team win. It isn't personal, they are just trying to help their team win. Once when I was in High-School this kid shot an Airball his first shot of the game, we chanted Airball at him every time he touched the ball for the remainder of the game. He scored like 2 points on 1-10 shooting that game. He was an all-state player the year before that, who averaged like 22 points a game. After the game he said, "They have great fans, I wish our fans were more like that." YEah, I realize there isn't a direct correlation between high school and the NBA, but you get the point.

So yeah, this isn't golf, and I don't expect fans to be courteous.

That said, some of the fans definitely crossed the line, and deserve to be reprimanded.


----------



## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> You lost your heart and soul for 6 games, you rookie-sabotaging freak.


That's what I said! What an idiotic comment.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

:no: :no: :no: :no: 
http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=1664564#post1664564
:no: :no: :no: :no:


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## Biscarat (Aug 13, 2004)

Finally. 

I love how Stern dealt with this quickly. The suspensions seem about fair.

I honestly can't believe some of the posts i'm reading (and i've read a lot of them). Like this dude who said Stern won't make it out of NY alive, as if he was taking matters to his own hands. As i type this, a thread entitled "Kill Stern" has spawned.

Also, the "boycott the nba by voting Artest to the All Star", he's not playing it, so it will only lead to other players needing less votes to get in.

Last, regarding the "fans got what they deserved" attitude, it will be interesting to see how you defend the players if there is a work stoppage next season and you don't get your share of nba because players aren't taking a paycut from their millionaire salaries.

There is a great post by spursfaninla in a ridiculous thread entitled "MY TAKE ON FIGHT". Go read it.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

On a somewhat positive note:

Users Browsing Forum: (BizzyRipsta, Budweiser_Boy, jvanbusk, John, aquaitious, The OUTLAW, R-Star, kflo, Vintage, deranged40, blabla97, Biscarat, Matt85163, nima86, Max Payne, PacersguyUSA, emerica2k2, Amareca, Arclite, O2K, Hong Kong Fooey, gambitnut, Scott, Springsteen, TDUBB, RR 823, HT_Flyer, Red_Bandit, Greg Ostertag!, genghisrex, garnett, jokeaward, Lachlanwood32, JustinSane, ToddMacCulloch11, Numbed One, Captain Obvious, hobojoe, BabyBlueSlugga7, wadeshaqeddie, PetroToZoran, texan, DatSupadoopaballer, conkeso, De_dauntless, bballlife, Weasel, madman, NYKBaller, Tooeasy, EHL, SacTown16, hgl, toros_locos, SmithCenter, Drewbs, clhb1, #21, paul, lakegz, Hoopla, Pan Mengtu, HeinzGuderian, TheMilkMan, LuckyAC, vi3t_boi11, BubblesinanIV, Pioneer10, ubercool, LBJthefuturegoat, Remix, UndergroundBaller, djinni, PauloCatarino)


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>HeinzGuderian</b>!
> 
> They can be angry all they want. They just can't go into the stands and beat people up because of it.


Fans fault


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> In my eyes it was attempted murder. Grabbing someone around their throat and choking them is attempted murder.


There were no attempted murder charges against Sprewell, that I remember. Attempted murder is a serious crime they don't let slip by.

It was assault. They'll more likely let the NBA handle that, if they didn't percieve it as being as bad.

I have no idea what, if any, charges were filed against Sprewell for that incident.


----------



## lakegz (Mar 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> THis is ridiculous, Artest and the fans who appreciate his game are losing a season of him in his prime or close to it. The Pacers and all of their fans just lost a chance at a championship.
> 
> This is a damn joke. Players union better get to work.


you have got to be kidding. Artest shoulda thought about it before he went into the stands. some people here think like 5 year olds who got their toys taken away.


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## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Fandom is out of control. I think next time I see some fan being a jerk, I'm going to clock them for the players. :upset:
> 
> Maybe I should test commissioner Stern's turn the other cheek philosophy. I'm going down to Madison Avenue and throw beers in his, Graniks and Jackson's face. Then we'll see what happens. I assume I will be mercilessly beaten to a bloody pulp by NBA security.
> ...


I think it's a fair punishment.

Consider this analogy. You're a lawyer and your in Court. You're being heckled by your client for something you have done that's hurt his chances. You turn around and chase your client, you grab him by the throat, you have to be restrained from beating him down.

What happens?

Well, you'd be fired by your client. Let go by your firm. Your reputation would be ruined. And you'd have trouble finding work again. 

I think in the real-world context (and yes, athletics may not be real world) these punishments are fair. While on the job, these guys assaulted customers of their business. Yes, the customers are responsible, but that doesn't change things. Yes, fans are out of hand, and they step over the line, but what Artest did was not a moderate step over the line, it was huge. It was patently unreasonable.


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## PDB (Aug 16, 2002)

Also... the fact that Artest's past had a role in this decision is perfectly legit as well. Why wouldn't it, the guy has a history of being irrational, and his offenses keep getting worse and worse. I think it's absolutely necesary to take his past into account.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Arclite</b>!
> 
> 
> How is that a better comparison? Artest didn't choke the fan. He knocked him to the ground. I think the decision of this has less to do with the Sprewell incident than it does with Ron Artest's "history". I like hobojoe's point about James and Bryant, and I believe it.


That's fine. Then let's make it an employee choking another employee vs. an employee pushing done a customer (with no warranted reason). The former is probably going to resort in a firing, the latter will for sure. In the eyes of a business, you don't mess with customers.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I officially hate the Detroit Pistons now. First team added to my hate list. I also want to see Stern no longer the commissioner after the next CBA is completed.

It's time to move on and get someone else in here to run the league. He's no longer an innovator, he's a senile old coot.


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> Get this through your thick skulls, Athletes are Human Beings also
> 
> Just because they get paid millions of dollars doesent mean they can't be angry sometimes


So you think a normal person wouldn't be arrested for throwing the first punch in a brawl out in the street? You are being absolutely ridiculous! 

These players ARE people, and they DID have the chance to walk away. That's EXACTLY why they deserve EVERYTHING they got!


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

You people have been brainwashed. I can't believe alot of you are defending these trashy fans who provoke these athletes and even abuse them


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> The NBA also has to "redefine the bounds of acceptable conduct for fans attending our games and resolve to permanently exclude those who overstep those bounds," Stern said.


Clearly Stern isn't ignoring that things need to be done to prevent fan provocation.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

I hope every Pacers fan in the building on Christmas ****ing day throws things at Pistons players and forces security to arrest every person in the 1st few rows, and forces Pistons players to "act like professionals" in the face of being hit with drinks repeatedly. Let security handle, you got spit on, they'll take care of it.


----------



## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> *So you think a normal person wouldn't be arrested for throwing the first punch in a brawl out in the street?* You are being absolutely ridiculous!
> ...


That would be the Fan you are talking about, Artest sure didnt start it


----------



## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> I hope every Pacers fan in the building on Christmas ****ing day throws things at Pistons players and forces security to arrest every person in the 1st few rows, and forces Pistons players to "act like professionals" in the face of being hit with drinks repeatedly. Let security handle, you got spit on, they'll take care of it.


That's intelligent. :|


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> I officially hate the Detroit Pistons now. First team added to my hate list. I also want to see Stern no longer the commissioner after the next CBA is completed.
> 
> It's time to move on and get someone else in here to run the league. He's no longer an innovator, he's a senile old coot.


Yeah, it's David Stern's fault Artest attacked a fan.

You are unbelievable.

Despite what some people think, anything less than a year and Stern would have been SLAMMED by the national media. (the REAL national media, not ESPN)


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Why not have the moron fans arrested and the athletes stay on the floor? Had Artest not charged into the crowd, the riot would not have happened. They could have had security arrest the beer-thrower and it's a boring night.


I'd like to say that I've said all along that while Ron Artest's (and others') actions may not have been right, the fans involved deserved everything they got.


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> 
> 
> That would be the Fan you are talking about, Artest sure didnt start it


So you are telling me the guy in the pistons jersey that Arest, Johnson, and then O'Neal mauled threw the first punch? I'd like you to point out specifically when that took place.


----------



## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> That's intelligent. :|


Yet absurdly not that much less so than about 1200 Piston fans.


----------



## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

By precedent I think the Pacers are lucky that Stephen Jackson didn't get two years off, since his actions in my eyes were double as bad as Artest's.


----------



## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd like to say that I've said all along that while Ron Artest's (and others') actions may not have been right, the fans involved deserved everything they got.


Exactly my point


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> So when a relative dies, or something tragic happens in your life, you have random strangers heckling you standing 10 feet away while you work?


I don't, because I'm not a public figure. Public figures have positives and negatives to their status.

This is one of the negatives. Poll all the athletes in the league and ask them if they'd turn down all the perks they get for being a celebrity (big money, preferential treatment, fame, etc) in order not to be heckled.

If even one says he'd do the trade-off, I'd be shocked.

Other professions have their own positives and negatives. I don't think athletes have the worst deals of all professions, even after hearing Kerr's story.


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> *Wrong*. Artest attacked a guy who was laughing at him.




Wrong, he confronted him, knocked him to the ground and asked him a question. 
My definition of attack is little stronger. He didn’t actually harm the guy, he had his hands on him for 2 seconds. 

WEAK.


----------



## nima86 (Jul 30, 2002)

I feel ya feels like im watching WWE now wiht one man in control of everything


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd like to say that I've said all along that while Ron Artest's (and others') actions may not have been right, the fans involved deserved everything they got.


You're probably right about that. They deserved to get smacked up. I just don't think that has much to do with the punishment that Artest and crew got. Do you honestly think that somebody is going to get out of an arrest for assault by using the excuse "that guy tossed a bottle at me, so I chased him down the street and throttled him".


----------



## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> You people have been brainwashed. I can't believe alot of you are defending these trashy fans who provoke these athletes and even abuse them


False Dilemma fallacy. Just because we're saying the players are wrong doesn't mean we're saying the fans who participated are right. You can be against both.


----------



## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> By precedent I think the Pacers are lucky that Stephen Jackson didn't get two years off, since his actions in my eyes were double as bad as Artest's.


Jackson's was much worse, he wasnt provoked or anything, he was just looking to beat someone up, and you could say the same for O'Neal


----------



## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd like to say that I've said all along that while Ron Artest's (and others') actions may not have been right, the fans involved deserved everything they got.


I don't think anyone is going to disagree with you. The point is though, that as you said, it ISN'T right, warrented or not.


----------



## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> So you are telling me the guy in the pistons jersey that Arest, Johnson, and then O'Neal mauled threw the first punch? I'd like you to point out specifically when that took place.


those are my sentiments exactly.


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lakegz</b>!
> 
> 
> you have got to be kidding. Artest shoulda thought about it before he went into the stands. some people here think like 5 year olds who got their toys taken away.


No some people here actually like the NBA and dont wanna see players and their teams season ruined because of some jackass fans.


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He didn't just knock him the ground. He CLEARLY threw two punches at the guy, which may/may not have connected. THEN he knocked him to the ground. You are blinding yourself to the reality of the situation here...


----------



## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

The only people Artest fought with were people who were actually provoking him somehow


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

I agree with Arclite on this one. A lot of the people are not arguing against the suspensions just the lenght of them. Vernon Maxwell (a player with a historry like Artest's) went into the stands when nothing was thrown at him and attacked a fan who was taunting him. He got a 10 game suspension.

If you think Artest did something worse then double or triple it (30 games is a lot and it will cose the dude a couple of million dollars). The Sprewell comparison people are bringing up is NOT valid. Spree actually left the practice facility and came BACK with what appeared to be PREMEDITATION and choked with intention for serious harm against his coach.

Artest should have got 30 games, Jackson 20, JO 15, and Wallace 10. This is simply excessive and doesn't seem to take into account the extenuating circumstances.


----------



## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, throwing a beer at someone _is_ an attack, but pushing someone to the ground _isn't_ an attack? Is this some bizarro-world where up is down, left is right?


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> That's intelligent. :|


Just like those thousand or so Pistons fans.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> Providing an environment that isn't so hostile. Heckling the opposing team should not be allowed, and it should be banned from all NBA arenas. When fans ridicule and heckle players on the opposing team in such brutal ways, that builds anger. When fans actually root for the team they came to root for, thats positive.


Oh. My. God.

You can not be serious.

Ban heckling? HECKLING!

Why don't you file your complaint with The View.

Seriously, some professions are just more prone to scrutiny. 

Police officers face it every day, politicians face it every day, and so do proffesional athletes. It's part of the job.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Arclite</b>!
> 
> 
> Yet absurdly not that much less so than about 1200 Piston fans.


Heh, damn. Talk about being on the same page.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Police officers face it every day, politicians face it every day, and so do proffesional athletes. It's part of the job.


Not to their face for two hours on a nightly basis.


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> So, throwing a beer at someone _is_ an attack, but pushing someone to the ground _isn't_ an attack? Is this some bizarro-world where up is down, left is right?


When did I say throwing a beer was an attack? And it was a beverage full of ice.


----------



## LuckyAC (Aug 12, 2004)

Yeah, those poor multimillionaire athletes. I am sure they wish they could trade their lives for yours.


----------



## svanacore (Nov 21, 2004)

This is the most retarded thing I have ever seen. 

73 games!!! WTF. This is unjust.

I hope that the Pacers either file a civil against the Pistons organization and the NBA or file a cross claim indemification suit against the Pistons and the NBA if the fans that were hurt bring forth their own suits against the PAcer players.

honestly...


----------



## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh. My. God.
> ...


heckle a police officer in the same manner that fans do to players and see how long that lasts before you get maced right in your funny face.


----------



## HoopsAvenue05 (Jul 20, 2004)

I don't think a lot of people here understand how these fans act at the games. We're not talking about fans yelling things like "brick" or "airball." Many of the players hear things you would NEVER hear anywhere else. The black athletes hear racial slurs and probably think they're living in South Carolina in the 1800s. It's no joke. I don't know where these fans come from. The incident where Steve Kerr talks about fans mocking his deceased father isn't one bit rare from my experiences....things as nasty or nastier are said on a nightly basis by fans. This is why former and current players are coming to Artest's defense.


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> Not to their face for two hours on a nightly basis.


Yeah, you're right. 

Police officers face get shot in the face eight hours a day, and getting sued for everything their worth if they cross the line. And that isn't much, because they don't get paid anyhthing. 

How dare he compare being a police officer to the grueling rigors of getting paid millions to play a game and dodging a beer cup a couple of nights a season. 

Of all the nerve!

(I've never seen such irrationality clumped into one place in my entire life. I will now throw up) 

:hurl: :hurl: :hurl:


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's David Stern's fault Artest attacked a fan.
> ...


I disagree, I think the national media would report it and move on.


----------



## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> When did I say throwing a beer was an attack? And it was a beverage full of ice.


:laugh: 

So that's an attack, but throwing someone to the ground and trying to punch them isn't.

Bizarro world indeed.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> Not to their face for two hours on a nightly basis.


Professional athletes don't get that either.

Police officers are regarded with far more contempt than professional athletes, and no they are not allowed to mace for saying mean things.

They are publice figures, it comes with the territory. 

As a player, it also is something that REALLY isn't that hard to overcome. Fans are just trying to get under your skin, players know that and are quite capable of coping with it on their own.


----------



## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Harsh.


----------



## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Give me a break. Artest had no right putting his hand on that fan, let alone jumping into the stands.


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> He didn't just knock him the ground. He CLEARLY threw two punches at the guy, which may/may not have connected. THEN he knocked him to the ground. You are blinding yourself to the reality of the situation here...


I have seen the video many times like everyone else, and he is held back by about 5 guys including the guy that threw the beverage, before he even gets a chance to do anything. 

I would like to see what two punches you are talking about.


----------



## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Ben Wallace should have gotten 15 games for this ****.


I agree with everything you say except this. He was unlucky to get 6 games.


----------



## Zach (May 11, 2003)

That is bull crap. Stern is an idiot.

I am starting a Fan Club to support Ron Artest onto the All-Star team because of this crap pulled by the Commish.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

I'm buying a whole bunch of Ron Artest's albums and chucking the CDs at Pistons players when they come to LA.

And even if I hit one of them in the neck and cut an artery, and he's on the ground screaming as blood gushes out, no Piston should come up to me and do anything about it because they need to keep their cool and let security handle it.


----------



## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> I'm buying a whole bunch of Ron Artest's albums and chucking the CDs at Pistons players when they come to LA.
> 
> And even if I hit one of them in the neck and cut an artery, and he's on the ground screaming as blood gushes out, no Piston should come up to me and do anything about it because they need to keep their cool and let security handle it.


hahah, you just made my day.


----------



## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

Artest even said that the supposed bottle that hit him was actually made of Glass....There is assault right there


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> Police officers face get shot in the face eight hours a day, and getting sued for everything their worth if they cross the line. And that isn't much, because they don't get paid anyhthing.
> 
> How dare he compare being a police officer to the grueling rigors of getting paid millions to play a game and dodging a beer cup a couple of nights a season.


Of course, you miss the point. Cops fight crime, they are paid to handle situations accordingly, that is their *job*. This is why it can't be prevented with them. You can't prevent them from being exposed to the bad guys because their job is to find the bad guys and handle them properly. 

Basketball players are paid to play basketball, and them getting ridiculed is *completely preventable*. 

This will happen again, because Stern refuses to acknowledge that the fans are the main reason for this. 

The players were out of line, but them being out of line is right *in line* with the fans, who are also out of line.


----------



## Zach (May 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> I'm buying a whole bunch of Ron Artest's albums and chucking the CDs at Pistons players when they come to LA.
> 
> And even if I hit one of them in the neck and cut an artery, and he's on the ground screaming as blood gushes out, no Piston should come up to me and do anything about it because they need to keep their cool and let security handle it.



I second that.


----------



## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> I'm buying a whole bunch of Ron Artest's albums and chucking the CDs at Pistons players when they come to LA.
> 
> And even if I hit one of them in the neck and cut an artery, and he's on the ground screaming as blood gushes out, no Piston should come up to me and do anything about it because they need to keep their cool and let security handle it.


Hitting someone's artery can cause death.

Hitting someone with a plastic cup full of beer, no matter how unpleasant, will not cause death.

If you do not see the difference, I pity you. 

And when you get charged with attempted murder, I will not feel sorry.

And yes, I believe you are not stupid enough to do anything like that....at least, I hope.


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


You're having some problems. Let me reiterate. My stance is that neither the throwing of the beverage or the throwing down of the nerd were legit "attacks." 

GET THAT?


----------



## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Hitting someone with a plastic cup full of beer


Wasnt Plastic, it was made of Glass


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> Hitting someone's artery can cause death.
> ...





Artest was hit with a cup full of ice. Throwing a cup of ice at someone’s face could certainly do significant damage. Sharp ice + eyes= potential for injury.


----------



## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> Hitting someone's artery can cause death.
> ...


actually, the push/chop/hit thing that wallace put on artest could have collapsed his windpipe rather easily, leaving ron unable to breath and eventually death, but of course thats overlooked because "they were on the court, it happens all the time."


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> Hitting someone's artery can cause death.
> ...


Do you often take obvious sarcasm and hyperbole seriously?


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> Artest even said that the supposed bottle that hit him was actually made of Glass....There is assault right there


Well, then Artest is a liar because no arena in the country serves anything in glass bottles. And I know for a fact the Palace isn't the exception.


----------



## HoopsAvenue05 (Jul 20, 2004)

Here's the results of a SportsNation Poll in progress:

8) What is your opinion on the NBA's overall reaction to the brawl?

44.9%	They sent the right message
36.8%	They went overboard
18.2%	They could have been tougher


Sadly, Stern seems to have made the majority of his racist, fat fans happy.


----------



## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you often take obvious sarcasm and hyperbole seriously?



And do you honestly not read the last line of my posts?


----------



## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> I hope every Pacers fan in the building on Christmas ****ing day throws things at Pistons players


Seriously wouldn't that be great if Pacers fans did , because their is no consequence fans can do what they want


I can't wait till the Lakers come to town so I can drench Kobe with soda


----------



## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>HoopsAvenue05</b>!
> Here's the results of a SportsNation Poll in progress:
> 
> 8) What is your opinion on the NBA's overall reaction to the brawl?
> ...


Which is Exactly how I picture most of the idiots who are on Stern's side :laugh:


----------



## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> I'm buying a whole bunch of Ron Artest's albums and chucking the CDs at Pistons players when they come to LA.
> 
> And even if I hit one of them in the neck and cut an artery, and he's on the ground screaming as blood gushes out, no Piston should come up to me and do anything about it because they need to keep their cool and let security handle it.



:laugh:


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>sboydell</b>!
> 
> 
> Seriously wouldn't that be great if Pacers fans did , because their is no consequence fans can do what they want
> ...


Um, yes there is.

You automatically get arrested for throwing things on the court- that is assuming you let security do their job and not attack the offending fan first.


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> I have seen the video many times like everyone else, and he is held back by about 5 guys including the guy that threw the beverage, before he even gets a chance to do anything.
> ...


On the floor, he didn't throw two punches at the guy in the Pistons jersey? That was an attack in every sense of the word, you can't twist it any other way.


----------



## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

these suspensions are complete bull****.

if artest is out for the season for this, the pistons should have to play without a home crowd for the entire year. be conistent with the punishment. if the players are being punished this harshly, punish the fans too.

artest went into the stands after being hit in the face with a cup of beer when artest was avoiding an oncourt fight. the point was pointing and laughing and yelling at artest up until artest grabbed th guy and pulled him to the ground. that was the only thing artest did wrong. that doesn not deserve a 73 game suspension. after that, s jax and oneal and the rest of the pacers were protecting their teammate. yes they should get suspensions for their actions, but 30 and 25 games is complete bull****. give artest 30 for going into the stands and the othe two half that for trying to protect their team.

if these suspensions stand, stern is a joke. and the game in indiana is going to be very ugly. this is just asking for the fans to start **** with the pistons team to get them suspended for hte season too.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> And do you honestly not read the last line of my posts?


Oh no, I did. And in that last line I saw you actually *questioning* whether or not I would throw CDs from Ron Artest's new album at Pistons players when they come to LA.

I don't know what to tell you if you actually had to contemplate whether or not I was being serious.


----------



## Zach (May 11, 2003)

This is a travesty, a mockery, a Traveshamockery!!!


----------



## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> On the floor, he didn't throw two punches at the guy in the Pistons jersey? That was an attack in every sense of the word, you can't twist it any other way.


on attack on a guy that came onto the floor and tried to fight artest. yeah, that's a attack. the guy would have swung first but artest didn't let him. and then after artest did swing, the fan and his friend both had swings at artest.

throwing a punch at someone who is trying to throw a punch at you is not attacking someone.


----------



## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh no, I did. And in that last line I saw you actually *questioning* whether or not I would throw CDs from Ron Artest's new album at Pistons players when they come to LA.
> ...


I was being sarcastic with the last line. Implying I didn't know if you were "smart" enough to not do it.

The last line was nothing more than a joke.


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Max Payne</b>!
> So wtf are they supposed to do ?
> 
> Fred Jones : Artest is getting mobbed up there !
> ...



And did Fred Jones or David Harrison get suspended? No they went up there to calm things down and Stern acknowledged that role by not punishing them.

O'Neal and Jackson were aggressors in this and got there just reward.


----------



## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

*edited: Please refrain from characterizing those on either side of this issue as racist*


----------



## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

I somewhat agree with Johnny Mac, I'd like baskeball players to concentrate on basketball. I'm losing regard for any unspoken law of fan/athlete seperation and extreme athlete restraint. Does anyone hate poker since it's not about the live spectators? But we need the ticket sales...

So NBA fans are supposed to feel safe now? The guy was just trying not to fight. Once he got doused with beverages, those fans were less safe. Seems logical...

Actually I lost my exact point. Carry on!


----------



## Zach (May 11, 2003)

The league needs a new Commisioner. Marc Cuban for NBA Commisioner. Stern is a pawn.


----------



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Here's a hypothetical for you:
> 
> Put Kobe Bryant or LeBron James in the spot of Ron Artest. Pretend this situation unfolded and they did the _exact_ same things that Ron did, what would they get? I'd be willing to be every penny I have neither of them would've got a suspension half as long as Artest's, and that's what pisses me off the most about this. Yes he has a history, but that's no excuse whatsoever to suspend him for the entire season.


Stern admitted in his press conference that yes, Artest's history was something he couldn't dismiss. But why substitute Kobe or LeBron.... why not substitute Dennis Rodman or Sprewell or any other player who's already on Stern's watch list... if Sprewell had done this, would Stern have suspended him for the season? Probably yes.


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> on attack on a guy that came onto the floor and tried to fight artest. yeah, that's a attack. the guy would have swung first but artest didn't let him. and then after artest did swing, the fan and his friend both had swings at artest.
> 
> throwing a punch at someone who is trying to throw a punch at you is not attacking someone.


This is about as blatant an assumption as you will ever see. Can you see it in court? 

"well, he was GOING to punch me, so I punched him first! I'm innocent!"


----------



## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

Does Playoffs count in the suspension?


----------



## HoopsAvenue05 (Jul 20, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> *edited*


Stern is part of the right-wing conspiracy!! 

I'm being facetious here, but Stern definitely is becoming way too much like one of those politicians who want to tell everyone how to behave.


----------



## Zach (May 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRON</b>!
> Does Playoffs count in the suspension?



Doesn't matter, they won't make it now thanks to Stern's stupid ***.


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Arclite</b>!
> If the only rationale for giving 70 games vs. 30 is deterrance, then this is an idiotic decision. 30 games is more than enough to get the point across, suspending Artest for the season is just beating a dead horse.


Fair point - I thought 50 was going to be the maximum. It's a little harsh, but still defenitely inside the realm of fairness.


----------



## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

Sounds fair to me... somebody need to stop Artest and now is the time to do that


----------



## Ice Nine (Apr 3, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> these suspensions are complete bull****.
> 
> if artest is out for the season for this, the pistons should have to play without a home crowd for the entire year. be conistent with the punishment. if the players are being punished this harshly, punish the fans too.


Why would David Stern cost the league approximately $50 million in stadium revenue when he could offer token solutions that cost him nothing instead? We're dealing with a man who instructs his referees to give preferential treatment to superstar players. He has little to no integrity, and this decision reflects that.


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Here's a hypothetical for you:
> 
> Put Kobe Bryant or LeBron James in the spot of Ron Artest. Pretend this situation unfolded and they did the _exact_ same things that Ron did, what would they get? I'd be willing to be every penny I have neither of them would've got a suspension half as long as Artest's, and that's what pisses me off the most about this. Yes he has a history, but that's no excuse whatsoever to suspend him for the entire season.


The problem with your point is that Kobe or Lebron would not do such a thing. Only a problem child with a history would be dumb enough to go into the stands.

You basically have to have a history to do something so selfish.


----------



## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

I will guarentee everyone right now that Ron Artest WILL retire


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> if artest is out for the season for this, the pistons should have to play without a home crowd for the entire year. be conistent with the punishment. if the players are being punished this harshly, punish the fans too.


Poor logic. If *all* Detroit fans should be punished due to the actions of some of them, then to be consistent *all* Pacers players should have been heavily suspended for the actions of some of them.

Or, we could act reasonably, and punish those who actually did something wrong.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> I was being sarcastic with the last line. Implying I didn't know if you were "smart" enough to not do it.
> ...


Huh?

Because my post was actually completely serious. You were fooled. You'll hear about me on the news. I'm targeting Ben Wallace. If anyone else gets in the way, tough luck. 

If Big Ben can't handle a little foul, how's he gonna handle something chucking some Artest albums at his dome?

Because I now know, as a fan, that I'm allowed to do that and get the player suspended for the entire year and probably receive some monetary compensation from said player if he even so much as pushes me to the ground. Stern has set the precedent.


----------



## Zach (May 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> 
> The problem with your point is that Kobe or Lebron would not do such a thing. Only a problem child with a history would be dumb enough to go into the stands.
> ...



Only an idiot would throw bottles and beer and popcorn at Ron Artest and Jermaine O'Neal. Are you an expert on Kobe and LeBron?


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> David Stern just said that the penalty would of been less if it was a different player. He said he couldn't leave out Artest's past history.


And a player's history should be considered. Multiple time offenders need bigger punishments because obviously they did not learn the first time.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> The difference is, in the eyes of the NBA, one victim was an employee one was a customer.


Exactly. This is how Stern views it too. The fans are the cash cow. The players are his "employees". He MUST show the fans that they can be protected.

What people aren't seeing yet is what WILL happen to the fans. There will be season ticket revolkings, expulsions, probably criminal charges against those that can be identified. The civil aspect of this will take longer to resolve.

Also, Stern seemed to indicate that these suspensions ARE NOT the final word as regards the players. ALL suspended players will have to prove to Stern that they are capable of abiding by the rules HE determines before he lets them return. Wrong, right, love it or hate it, he is the Czar. His word is final.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Poor logic. If *all* Detroit fans should be punished due to the actions of some of them, then to be consistent *all* Pacers players should have been heavily suspended for the actions of some of them.
> ...


Agree you cant blame all the fans for just a few punks


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Poor logic. If *all* Detroit fans should be punished due to the actions of some of them, then to be consistent *all* Pacers players should have been heavily suspended for the actions of some of them.
> 
> Or, we could act reasonably, and punish those who actually did something wrong.


the pacers players involved were all punished very harshly and a lot more than needed. they were heavily suspended unless you consider 73, 30, and 25 games to be light suspensions.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Only an idiot would throw bottles and beer and popcorn at Ron Artest and Jermaine O'Neal. Are you an expert on Kobe and LeBron?


Only an Idiot make fun of the fans posing in the score table that was the main reason why the Fans throw beer to Artest because he was making fun of Wallace


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>garnett</b>!
> ridiculous. so i spose nothing will be done about the crowd in detroit?
> 
> artest will have plenty of time to promote his rap cd now.


David Stern has suspended them for the rest of the year. No NBA teams can sign that fat **** for the season

WTF, can Stern do about a fan. He has no jurisdiction?

He can punish the team however, and I am sure he will.


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## HoopsAvenue05 (Jul 20, 2004)

I have to think the majority of NBA players disagree with this decision on Artest and many of them are probably outraged. What they oughta do is stop talking to the media, stop signing autographs, stop all the promotion. That will show Stern who's boss. In reality, he's got a team of about 300-400 expert marketers (players). The game IS NOT the product, as Stern would have you believe. The game is good, but it's not the product. The players run this **** and it's time Stern gets a wake-up call.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> This is about as blatant an assumption as you will ever see. Can you see it in court?
> ...


apparently, you dont know the law very well.If you feel your in immediate danger, under most any circumstance your allowed to throw the first punch, as long as its justified that you doing that was defending your self because you could be potentially harmed. i had a court case related to this back in 2002, and got off after initial charges of second degree assault were filed on me.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> This is about as blatant an assumption as you will ever see. Can you see it in court?
> 
> "well, he was GOING to punch me, so I punched him first! I'm innocent!"


this is a joke. you are honestly trying to tell me that the guy artest hit on the court wasn't trying to fight him.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Fandom is out of control. I think next time I see some fan being a jerk, I'm going to clock them for the players. :upset:


lol... funniest thing I've read in this thread... good one...lol


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## Zach (May 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SpeakerBoxxX</b>!
> 
> 
> Only an Idiot make fun of the fans posing in the score table that was the main reason why the Fans throw beer to Artest because he was making fun of Wallace



By laying down, he was making fun?

It makes absolutely complete sense now that I think about it!! 

Act like you don't want to start something and pay a fan before the game to throw a bottle/cup at you when you lie down on the scorer's table because you are going to foul Ben Wallace with 45 seconds left and he is going to overreact; in turn, Wallace will shove you by the neck and try to start something, then the fan throws the bottle/cup and Ron Artest and his buddies can proceed to beat the crap out of all the fans because they are thugs. It makes perfect sense!!

^^Sarcasm.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)




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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tooeasy</b>!
> 
> apparently, you dont know the law very well.If you feel your in immediate danger, under most any circumstance your allowed to throw the first punch, as long as its justified that you doing that was defending your self because you could be potentially harmed. i had a court case related to this back in 2002, and got off after initial charges of second degree assault were filed on me.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A742-2004Nov20.html


> As a matter of law, my friend Vince Williams, a lawyer and Chicago Bulls season ticket holder, told me yesterday: "You are allowed to meet force with like force, which does not allow Artest, after being hit with a plastic cup of beer or soda, to pummel the person -- even if he'd gotten the right person -- within an inch of his life. You are allowed to defend yourself, but once the threat has subsided, you can't continue to fight or come back five minutes later and retaliate."


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SpeakerBoxxX</b>!
> Only an Idiot make fun of the fans posing in the score table that was the main reason why the Fans throw beer to Artest because he was making fun of Wallace


the fans should have shown more restraint. and because of their actions the pistons fans should be suspended the rest of the season.

that's what happened to artest.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ian</b>!
> 
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A742-2004Nov20.html


wrong example my friend, the discussion we were having was on the two oompa-loompas that stepped onto the court and caught an *** whoopin.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> So you are telling me the guy in the pistons jersey that Arest, Johnson, and then O'Neal mauled threw the first punch? I'd like you to point out specifically when that took place.


STAY OFF THE COURT! STAY OUT OF THE LIONS' DEN OR BE BIT!


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you dont want start something go to your damn bench why lay down on the score table that make sense ? Go to your damn bench and stay there.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Good. He deserves every game of it.
> 
> I've been saying from the begining he would be gone for the year nobody believed me and called me unbelievably biased and a raging homer.


For good reason.


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## spursfaninla (Sep 13, 2003)

*I can't believe people played the race card....*

That is extremely weak. I'm a latino, and I readily believe our justice system and society in general is still getting over racist tendencies. Blacks get the death penalty more for murder than whites, and when a black kills a white, they get the death penalty much more often than a white killing a black.

Nevertheless, there is NO evidence that this punishment would be any different for a player who was white.

Furthermore, it is a slap in the face of all the good, morally upright black players (like David Robinson, for instance), who have shown restraint in the face of much worse treatment (like being knocked out by Karl Malone). 

Why didn't David go after Karl when he had a chance? Because he is a morally upright person who knows better. Making excuses for these men just justifies their immature, violent and ultimately self-destructive behavior. 

Speaking as a (former) Sjax fan (played for Spurs), these thugs went looking for a fight while on the job, and got punished for it. As a teacher, if I was spit on or insulted by one of my co-workers or parent helpers, and then I started punching them, do you doubt I would get off as easily as a suspection without pay for a few months? I would be luckly to ever work in a school again.

Whatever color or creed, their actions are UNDENIABLE, and their punishment well within the realm of fair. 

Get alittle perspective; Spree was gone for the season, and he just attacked one person. Spree did it off camera (less emberassing for the league), did not punch, and (evidently) knew enough to stop when restrained.

Why are people asking for leniency here? Holding these players to a low standard of behavior just speaks badly of our society; do we really want our children to think it is was justified to do what these guys did?...


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## Ice Nine (Apr 3, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>HoopsAvenue05</b>!
> I have to think the majority of NBA players disagree with this decision on Artest and many of them are probably outraged. What they oughta do is stop talking to the media, stop signing autographs, stop all the promotion. That will show Stern who's boss. In reality, he's got a team of about 300-400 expert marketers (players). The game IS NOT the product, as Stern would have you believe. The game is good, but it's not the product. The players run this **** and it's time Stern gets a wake-up call.


So the players should protest by taking money out of their own paychecks? I agree with you in principle, but money supersedes morality in the NBA and just about every other business. This is implicitly understood by the players; note the absence of outrage over Carlos Boozer's offseason antics.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> the fans should have shown more restraint. and because of their actions the pistons fans should be suspended the rest of the season.
> 
> that's what happened to artest.


I'm agree with yout first point the fans should not do that but you cant suspend the fans for the rest of the season thats not gonna happen


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> The only people Artest fought with were people who were actually provoking him somehow


Laughing at someone is provocation?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> the pacers players involved were all punished very harshly and a lot more than needed. they were heavily suspended unless you consider 73, 30, and 25 games to be light suspensions.


ALL Pacers players? Including the ones who didn't do anything, like, say, Jamal Tinsley?

My point was, if *all* Detroit fans should be punished, as you advocated, even the ones who did nothing, then *all* Pacers players should be heavily suspended, even those who did nothing. To be consistent.

Or, as I said, we could be reasonable and only punish players and fans who actually did something. Preventing fans from attending Detroit home games would be punishing many innocent fans.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SpeakerBoxxX</b>!
> 
> 
> If you dont want start something go to your damn bench why lay down on the score table that make sense ? Go to your damn bench and stay there.


and get smacked in the back of the head with that damn cup and not even know where it came from. 
ben wallace got that damn crowd fired up, and they were lookin to start some **** with that pacer squad after getting their asses handed to them at home. did you hear the reaction the fans had ben wallace hit artest? cheers across the board. how bout when he tossed that towel in artests face? cheers across the board as well.


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## Zach (May 11, 2003)

Detroit better get a hefty fine.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> ALL Pacers players? Including the ones who didn't do anything, like, say, Jamal Tinsley?


Well, Jamaal and Sheed were shoving each other, and he came out later with a dustpan. The only Pacer who didn't try to break up fights, attack someone, or get attacked was Austin Chroshere.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tooeasy</b>!
> 
> and get smacked in the back of the head with that damn cup and not even know where it came from.
> ben wallace got that damn crowd fired up, and they were lookin to start some **** with that pacer squad after getting their asses handed to them at home. did you hear the reaction the fans had ben wallace hit artest? cheers across the board. how bout when he tossed that towel in artests face? cheers across the board as well.


BTW, has Ben Wallace say something about what went on that night?


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HoopsAvenue05</b>!
> This is why former and current players are coming to Artest's defense.


Most I have heard are not coming to his defence.

They agree that the fans are out of control, but disagree wholheartedly with Artest's means


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tooeasy</b>!
> 
> and get smacked in the back of the head with that damn cup and not even know where it came from.
> ben wallace got that damn crowd fired up, and they were lookin to start some **** with that pacer squad after getting their asses handed to them at home. did you hear the reaction the fans had ben wallace hit artest? cheers across the board. how bout when he tossed that towel in artests face? cheers across the board as well.


I never saw Ben telling the people to attack Artest do you ? 

If artest went to the Pacers bench probably no one would throw beer on him


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## Zach (May 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, Jamaal and Sheed were shoving each other, and he came out later with a dustpan. The only Pacer who didn't try to break up fights, attack someone, or get attacked was Austin Chroshere.



It was kinda funny, they showed Croshere standing in the middle of the court and he looked like he was trying to solva an astro-physics question.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> Detroit better get a hefty fine.


I'm agree


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## Season of Shaq (Nov 20, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>HoopsAvenue05</b>!
> I have to think the majority of NBA players disagree with this decision on Artest and many of them are probably outraged. What they oughta do is stop talking to the media, stop signing autographs, stop all the promotion. That will show Stern who's boss... The players run this **** and it's time Stern gets a wake-up call.


LMAO, yep, that's what they should all do.

Then next year they'll be selling their 22'' spinners on Ebay so they can make their house payments.

The fans are the boss, screw with them and you'll be working at McDonald's. What they oughta do is keep out of the stands and let security do their jobs.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> That is bull crap. Stern is an idiot.
> 
> I am starting a Fan Club to support Ron Artest onto the All-Star team because of this crap pulled by the Commish.


I am starting a Fan Club, for those who agree that your fan club is the dumbest on the internet.


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## Zach (May 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> 
> I am starting a Fan Club, for those who agree that your fan club is the dumbest on the internet.



I think not my *edited* friend.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> For good reason.


And what reason was that? Seriously.


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## Season of Shaq (Nov 20, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> the point was pointing and laughing and yelling at artest up until artest grabbed th guy and pulled him to the ground. that was the only thing artest did wrong. that doesn not deserve a 73 game suspension.


so what should the suspension be for a player leaving the floor and attacking an innocent fan in the stands?

try attacking your customers in the workplace and you butt will be out on the street. Artest got the appropriate penalty.

the more severe penalty is coming when that dude files a lawsuit...he'll probably be able to buy the Pistons after he sues the NBA.


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> Because I now know, as a fan, that I'm allowed to do that and get the player suspended for the entire year and probably receive some monetary compensation from said player if he even so much as pushes me to the ground. Stern has set the precedent.


Stern did not set any precedent for the fan. Stern has no decision to make for the fan because he is not an employee. That will be carried out outside of Stern's jurisdiction.

Ron Artest's decision to run up into the stands and attack that (innocent?) bystander was flat out wrong.

If that fan does get some sort of monetary compensation (questionable because we don't even know if the one that threw the beer was the one that Artest went after), and does not suffer any consequences, then I would agree that it is not fair. But it isn't Stern who decides that.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> these suspensions are complete bull****.
> 
> if artest is out for the season for this, the pistons should have to play without a home crowd for the entire year. be conistent with the punishment. if the players are being punished this harshly, punish the fans too.
> ...


When the Detroit police do the job, and start publicizing the arrests and hopefully some jailtime for some of those fans, the mob mentaility that causes good people to be idiots will defintely be dampened.

Arrest a few people, and the Indiana fans or other fans will be to chicken **** to do anything. And that's a good thing.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> BTW, has Ben Wallace say something about what went on that night?


ya he did as a matter of fact
"i didnt have nothin to do with it."


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> ALL Pacers players? Including the ones who didn't do anything, like, say, Jamal Tinsley?
> 
> My point was, if *all* Detroit fans should be punished, as you advocated, even the ones who did nothing, then *all* Pacers players should be heavily suspended, even those who did nothing. To be consistent.
> ...


right, i understand that. but shouldn't the detroit organization receive some sort of punishment for not being able to control their fans? they couldn't keep them from throwing things onto the court and at players and couldn't keep fans off the court.

and i don't really think the fans should really have to miss all the home games. but the artest(and jackson and oneal) suspension is bull**** and the pistons and their fans should have to deal with an equally bull**** punishment.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Only an idiot would throw bottles and beer and popcorn at Ron Artest and Jermaine O'Neal. Are you an expert on Kobe and LeBron?


yes


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

well on the plus side, it looks like the pistons are about to lose to the bobcats, i guess thats somewhat of a punishment


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Season of Shaq</b>!
> so what should the suspension be for a player leaving the floor and attacking an innocent fan in the stands?
> 
> try attacking your customers in the workplace and you butt will be out on the street. Artest got the appropriate penalty.
> ...


vernon maxwell got 10 games. stephen jackson got 30. jermaine oneal got 25. so artest gets the entire season? that doesn't match up. why artest more than double what jackson got? if anything give artest 30 because of what he did and his history and give oneal and jackson 10-15 because that's what the penalty has been in the past.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tooeasy</b>!
> 
> ya he did as a matter of fact
> "i didnt have nothin to do with it."


Thanx.
Couldn't find a quote on him...


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> right, i understand that. but shouldn't the detroit organization receive some sort of punishment for not being able to control their fans?


Only if their ability to control fans was worse than every other teams'. It's quite possible this is a situation *no* team would have been able to control. In that case, no, I don't think Detroit should face penalty. You can't hold as a standard something no other entity in the industry is prepared to handle.



> they couldn't keep them from throwing things onto the court and at players and couldn't keep fans off the court.


What team is, in any sport? In every sport, even in hockey with their high glass walls, things get thrown onto the playing surface. No team is capable of preventing fans from storming the playing surface when they are determined to do so (usually, in celebration).

Punishing Detroit as a franchise should only happen if there is evidence that they were laxer than any other team in ensuring order.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tooeasy</b>!
> well on the plus side, it looks like the pistons are about to lose to the bobcats, i guess thats somewhat of a punishment


uh 1 lose damn the season is over  :uhoh:


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> On the floor, he didn't throw two punches at the guy in the Pistons jersey? That was an attack in every sense of the word, you can't twist it any other way.


Never said it wasnt. I was talking about the nerd he threw down.


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## thegza (Feb 18, 2003)

I'm sorry but no one is right on this one.

You could argue about the fans and how the Pacers players took this sittuation, but to each his own. Everyone has a different temper and to get hit and recieve abuse and to have no reaction at all is asking alot - especially from Artest who had just almost gotten into a fight with Ben Wallace.

Myself, I think it's ridiculous to blame thinks on Artest. The only player that deserved to be seriously suspended was Stephen Jackson because he started throwing a few punches as soon as he went to the stands and wasn't even provoked; while Jermaine O'Neal was actually trying to stop the fighting and get some peace. The only punch JO actually threw was to that one of those two idiots that ran on to the court.. and they honestly got what they deserved.

I respect Ron Artest and Jermaine O'Neal for sticking up for each other and I don't agree with their punishment. However, the Pacers will survive and have definately gotten themselves a new fan out of me. 

I expect some bashing about this, but oh well!


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

> but the artest(and jackson and oneal) suspension is bull**** and the pistons and their fans should have to deal with an equally bull**** punishment.


Exactly. I can't agree enough with that statement. I just don't understand these suspensions. Why does Ben Wallace only get 6 games. He basically started this whole damn riot. If he hadn't done what he did, then this whole damn mess would have never happened in the first place. 

Artest the whole year?? That's just plain wrong. 

I mean, I can understand O'Neal and Jackson being suspended for at most 12-15 games, but 30?!?! Vernon Maxwell set the precedent for this type of thing and he only got 10 games. O'Neal and Jackson basically did the same thing he did and they get suspended for nearly 3 times the amount!? I just don't understand. I can't state that enough.


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## SignGuyDino (Apr 30, 2003)

Travesty....:upset:


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

i think indianas season is done. ron ron got hit with the book... hard... harder than i ever would of thought he would. i think stern is just trying to set precsident (sp?) so nothing even remotely close to this ever happens again. its real steep tho, the union will fight it fo sure... also, does anyone know if the pistons as a team were at all punished?


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Should the Pacers just pack it in and try for a high lotto pick? I doubt they're going to get very close to the title now. 

Well this class is pretty crummy.

Check out this comparison, he'll probably be a mid-first http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/franciscogarcia.asp


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

1. artest's punishment is harsh. but it is justified, artest crossed the ultimate line (don't go to the stands to attack a fan, no matter what he does)

2. why the heck are you people blaming stern? you should blame artest, he is the idiot here. 

whoever said that stern is wrong because the fans want to see artest playing, well, guess what, it was artest who attacked a fan. he can do whatever he wants because you want to see him playing? what a total load of bull****.

and the point about ruining pacers' season, who exactly ruined it? none other but *RON ARTEST*.

3. the pistons should face some kind of sanctions, I'd say one game without spectators and ban beer from their home games for this season. there has to be some kind of group punishment here, other spectators don't give a **** if those guys that threw stuff and are identified are the only ones punished. they might not even notice it. this also might pressure the fans to keep other fans in check.

4. whoever said it's normal for fans to attack players in european football (soccer) matches, is flat out wrong.


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> Should the Pacers just pack it in and try for a high lotto pick? I doubt they're going to get very close to the title now.
> 
> Well this class is pretty crummy.
> ...


they should tank every game and get Chris Paul


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

Personally, I don't think Artest's suspension is fair, especially when you can compare what he did with what Jackson and O'nea'l did. Sure, Artest was the one who involved the fans into the big brawl, but what he actually did the people was not deserving of 30 or more games of suspension than JO and Jackson. That's the way I'm seeing it. O'neal and Jackson's don't bother me, but Artest's for the season is absurd to me. Maybe 40-45 games, but the whole darn season is just a little too much in my opinion.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> Personally, I don't think Artest's suspension is fair, especially when you can compare what he did with what Jackson and O'nea'l did. Sure, Artest was the one who involved the fans into the big brawl, but what he actually did the people was not deserving of 30 or more games of suspension than JO and Jackson. That's the way I'm seeing it. O'neal and Jackson's don't bother me, but Artest's for the season is absurd to me. Maybe 40-45 games, but the whole darn season is just a little too much in my opinion.


This is a valid opinion. Justifying assault because somebody was insulted or had a cup of ice thrown at them is not. I thought a lot more of certain people on this board...


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## md6655321 (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm fine with the suspensions for the most part, but I do think the Pistons fans should be dealt with more. Hopefully they can ban all of the ones involved, but I honestly believe The Pistons should get a huge fine and have to play the home Pacers games in an empty arena.


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## RomaVictor (Feb 16, 2004)

I think there is a difference between "justifying" assault LEGALLY and talking about what's right.

Hell, if you KNOW, I mean KNOW(maybe the man confesses to you and laughs) that a man killed your wife and got away with it, LEGALLY it might be murder to kill him, but it's not immoral. 

If someone throws a beer on me on the bus, I'm going to punch him in the mouth. That doesn't mean LEGALLY it will be viable in court, but those two things are often different.

Law is not really about justice but about trying to promote a consistent and knowable standard of behavior that society has deemed positive or, at least, not harmful.


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## Cometsbiggestfan (May 14, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HeinzGuderian</b>!
> 
> They can be angry all they want. They just can't go into the stands and beat people up because of it.


I disagree. I would've did exactly what Artest did.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dakota</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly. I can't agree enough with that statement. I just don't understand these suspensions. Why does Ben Wallace only get 6 games. He basically started this whole damn riot. If he hadn't done what he did, then this whole damn mess would have never happened in the first place.


Why did Wallace only get 6 games? Maybe it's because Wallace didn't jump into the crowd and start wailing at innocent people? I don't know, though. That's just a guess.


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## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

I am totally disapointed in the fact so far nothing has been done to punish the detroit franchise. Something that would hurt the fans as well. there has to be something done. This for the most part was because of detroit.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Huh?
> ...


Here's hoping you meet up with Bubba in prison, just like that Pistons fan that threw the cup.


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## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ian</b>!
> 
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A742-2004Nov20.html


That's 100% right EXCEPT if there is a reasonable alternative you have to take that option instead of using force. Also, you cannot rely on self defense if you have put yourself in a dangerous situation.

So that being said, it's unlikely the players are going to be able to rely on a self defense defense b/c it could be convincinly be argued that they should have headed to the locker room when faced with trouble.


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## Darkwing Duck (Sep 6, 2004)

Got to page 10 before hitting "post reply."

Until the NBA makes some sort of tangible effort to reduce fan antagonism at games, this situation will happen again. A simple arrest and two hours in a drunk tank is NOT a deterrent. Charged with misdemeanors, fined in quadruple digits, Voided season tickets, cut alcohol sales are all tangible things the NBA can do to keep the fans in check.

Fans need to remind fans, as well. My dad told me a story (I don't remember) that during a Weber State football game, a guy behind us was insulting and cursing out in this case the referees. My dad kindly (I use that word somewhat sarcastically) to quit that or both of them wouldn't see the rest of the game.

What I'm seeing right now is that the fans can do whatever they want. "I can throw things at guys, all I'll get is an hour in the drunk tank. Wooo." "I can say things that would enrage just about anyone, but no one is going to stop me. 

Sure you can have people thrown out for extreme heckling, but I recall that the media impression of such events was of basically calling the players and refs thin-skinned. The atmosphere has to change. 

There will be a time where one fan out of thousands that the players hear in any given year will finally manage to be successful and make the guy snap (why else do you heckle someone?). We'll blame the player again and the cycle will continue.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> Here's hoping you meet up with Bubba in prison, just like that Pistons fan that threw the cup.


Do you hold on to the belief that the idiot fan will actually serve some jailtime? Does it make you feel better about the situation?


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you hold on to the belief that the idiot fan will actually serve some jailtime? Does it make you feel better about the situation?


Nothing makes me feel better about the situation. It was an awful situation all the way around. 

Do you honestly believe the guy is not going to face legal repercussions? You've got to quit kidding yourself and thinking the whole world is against Ron Artest and the Pacers.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> Nothing makes me feel better about the situation. It was an awful situation all the way around.
> ...


No. Like I said in another thread, I believe that fan along with several others will be sued. But none of them will get any real jailtime, and they should, especially the fan who instigated the whole thing.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

i feel its time for a club... 

the "I'm voting for Ron Ron and JO for all star weekend" club


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> I am totally disapointed in the fact so far nothing has been done to punish the detroit franchise. Something that would hurt the fans as well. there has to be something done. This for the most part was because of detroit.


You have got to be kidding me. Some fans get drunk, and you want revenge on the franchise? This wasn't Detroit. It was a bunch of drunken idiots, and some really immature players. The Pistons had absolutely nothing to do with it.

And the fact of the matter is that if Ben Wallace had gone into the stands in Indy, you would have been throwing your beer at him too.


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## HoopsAvenue05 (Jul 20, 2004)

I just read that Kermit Washington was only suspended 60 _days_ for his punch on Rudy T in 1977 when he ran across the court and nailed Rudy T with a clean jab without Rudy T seeing him. How is Ron Artest's situation 5x worse than that?

Oh yeah, I forgot, Corporate America and the NBA.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> No. Like I said in another thread, I believe that fan along with several others will be sued. But none of them will get any real jailtime, and they should, especially the fan who instigated the whole thing.


So a fan that threw a cup at a player should go to jail, but Artest can't even be suspended for physically assaulting a bystander of the incident? This is so obscenely absurd I can hardly take it anymore. People are responsible for their own actions!!!


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> So a fan that threw a cup at a player should go to jail, but Artest can't even be suspended for physically assaulting a bystander of the incident? This is so obscenely absurd I can hardly take it anymore. People are responsible for their own actions!!!


Where the hell did I say Artest shouldn't be suspended? Don't put words in my mouth.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>-James-</b>!
> i feel its time for a club...
> 
> the "I'm voting for Ron Ron and JO for all star weekend" club


Start it. I'll join.


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## Season of Shaq (Nov 20, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>HoopsAvenue05</b>!
> I just read that Kermit Washington was only suspended 60 _days_ for his punch on Rudy T in 1977 when he ran across the court and nailed Rudy T with a clean jab without Rudy T seeing him. How is Ron Artest's situation 5x worse than that?
> 
> Oh yeah, I forgot, Corporate America and the NBA.


of course, that punch on Rudy T was only *27 years ago!*

god forbid things are looked on differently almost 3 decades later. :sigh:


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Kermit Washington was actually suspended for the season, it's just there were only 60 days left.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

But Washington only missed 26 games.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>adomis82</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh what, and official interview when the game was going on?


The game wasn't going on. It was paused. Nobody was playing. Wallace was still foaming at the mouth and trying hard to get at Artest, while the guy was simply laying on a table. I was embarrassed for Big Ben.



> You're a fool if you think Ron's first hit on Wallace wouldn't get a reaction


Wallace overreacted. Everyone outside of Detroit admits that. Even some Detroit fans do.



> And thinking in Detroit sitting on the scorers table clownin like he did wouldn't be offensive after hitting wallace is naive.


He wasn't "clownin". He was calming himself down after what Wallace did. He should be commended for doing so. Stop being so blind.


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

i would've handed out punishments a little differently, but i basically agree with the harshness of it all. This IS unprecedented, this is not like Kermit, this is not like Maxwell. This wasnt an incident it was an all out brawl that stopped the game and basically had a team of guys knocking people out.

I wouldve done the following:

JO - 25 games
Jackson - remainder of regular season (this looked much more thought out to me than Artest who was maybe very emotional at the time. Jackson was more cool headed and still acted like an idiot IMO)
Artest - 25 games + entire playoffs.
Wallace - 20 games.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> He wasn't "clownin". He was calming himself down after what Wallace did. He should be commended for doing so. Stop being so blind.


You are the blind one if you think Artest was simply calming himself down on the scorers table.

He WANTED to get a reaction out of Wallace, he thinks he's Dennis Rodman and tries to get a reaction out of people. He succeeded. Ben lost his cool and hit him, this was what Ron wanted, Ron succeeded in getting Ben suspended and was very proud of himself.

Once Ben was restrained Ron proceeded to lie down on the scorers table with his arms behind his head admiring his own handy work.

He was pleased with himself. Ron is not a stupid guy, he knew what he was doing and knew lying on the table would insight Ben even further. He then grabbed a headset off of a commentator and started giving a mock interview. He was mocking Ben. It was plain for everyone to see, Reggie even had to come over and take the headset off of him and try to get him off the table. Why do you think it looked like Ben was calming down and then he spazzed out again and threw a headband when he saw Ron on the table, it was extremely disrespectful.

Ron did such good job of pissing everybody off that a fan took exception and threw a drink at him.

If he would have simply walked to his own bench that would not have happened. He was showing everybody up by laying on the table. I KNEW something was going to happen when I saw him doing that, I even told my roommate he needed to get off the table before someone does it for him.

Now what he did wasn't wrong, he can't get in trouble for it, but it did lead to the events that occured. It definately didn't help things. 

I blame a lot of that on the referees. Once they altercation started they just got the hell out of their. Watch a video of it. There isn't a ref in sight between the players.

They needed to take control, eject Ben, call security to escort him to the lockerroom (security can't come on the floor untli summoned by the refs). They should have been in the middle of that, taking charge to get Ben off the floor and getting Ron off of the table before a fan did something like they did.


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## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> You are the blind one if you think Artest was simply calming himself down on the scorers table.
> ...


:laugh: :laugh:   

actually the fan didn't throw the beer until AFTER Wallace threw the towel.....the name of the player on the back of the fan..."Wallace"....Since you know exactly why RA sat on the table....I'll tell you exactly why the fan threw the beer.....Because he saw his favorite player Wallace throw a towel at RA and figured, "hey, since my favorite ball player threw something at him, I must throw something too"....


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> You are the blind one if you think Artest was simply calming himself down on the scorers table.
> ...


Do you really believe what you've just written? Ron walked back to the scorer's table with a bunch of people surrounding him. He layed on the table. That's all. From this, you construe that he was purposefully attempting to piss off not only Ben Wallace, but all of Detroit. Okay.

What was Artest supposed to do? Go after Wallace with 10 people holding him back? Or stand there with an angry look on his face? Wallace was embarrassing himself without Artest even doing anything. It's not his fault Wallace and those Detroit fans are so sensitive.


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## sweet_constipation (Jul 3, 2004)

The lengths of the suspensions seem right whether you agree with them or not.
As much as I hate Stern(#1 on my list of all people alive), was there any reason to believe Artest wouldn't be suspended at least 50-60 games?
We all know about the Rudy T. incident, as well as the "Mad Max" attack that was only 9/10 years ago, but the NBA and the world of sports is a much different arena.


Personally, I don't agree with any of the suspensions except for Wallace. With the exception of the innocent geek and the old lady, everyone got what was coming to them.....that includes the money that might be heading towards the innocent guy, and the suspensions.
Oh yeah, forgot about Jones that wasn't trying to fight.

_Cause:_
Guy throws drink once Artest is already in the stands
_Effect:_
Jackson hits him

_Cause:_
Guy that actually threw the first drink begins to punch artest from behind.
_Effect:_
Artest breaks free by swinging his elbow backwards and swings with a right.

_Cause:_
Two dumb fat guys head towards Artest, and one hop-skips directly into Artest's path with the intention of doing something NOT positive.
_Effect:_ Artest swings on him

_Cause:_
2nd fat guy tackles Artest 
_Effect:_
JO comes in sliding waiting for his right hand to connect with someone's face

_Cause:_
All this drama
_Effect:_
Suspensions for players, and one possible geek getting millions for being attacked


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2004)

Anyone have any info how they're going to punish the idiot fans and Pistons organization? Those fans should be banned for life and hopefully they're already arrested.

Otherwise these penmalties send the wrong message to the idiotic fans everywhere.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh: :laugh:
> ...


Did I say anything different?



> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you really believe what you've just written? Ron walked back to the scorer's table with a bunch of people surrounding him. He layed on the table. That's all. From this, you construe that he was purposefully attempting to piss off not only Ben Wallace, but all of Detroit. Okay.
> ...


How could you look at it any other way? Did you watch the game? Did you watch Ron Artest?

Why would he lay on the scorers table in a relaxed position, he wasn't sitting on it, he was laying back lounging on it. You don't think that's disrespectful?

I'm not saying he was supposed to do anything, he's a grown man- he can do what he wants, but you can't say the actions he took helped to difuse the situation.

If he had walked away and sat on the bench the cup wouldn't have been thrown, I really believe that.

Wallace was still fuming because Artest was showing him up in his own arena. Artest put a headset on and started giving a mock interview, do you honestly think that is a normal thing to do in his situation?

Everyone has always said Artest is the best in the NBA at getting under peoples skin. He does it all the time. You don't think that is what he was doing here? He's very calculated, and a master at it. I don't think you give him enough credit.

It obviously doesn't justify throwing a cup at him, I'm not trying to say it does in any way, but you also can't say Ron was being an angel.

His posing on the scorers table riled the fans up more than the Ben Wallace scuffle did. Everyone knew Ben was wrong, but when Ron started rubbing it in everyones face is when people got angry.

Artest didn't actually do anything wrong, he was just doing what he always does- getting under peoples skin.

You can't honestly say he was removing himself from the situation, if he was trying to get away from Wallace, why would he plant himself in a prone position just outside of Wallace's reach?


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Artest didn't actually do anything wrong


i guess we can agree on one thing.

not saying that his actions in the stands weren't wrong, but the stuff still oncourt wasn't wrong at all.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> i guess we can agree on one thing.
> 
> not saying that his actions in the stands weren't wrong, but the stuff still oncourt wasn't wrong at all.


Right, they weren't wrong, but they also weren't helping.

He wasn't just being an angel and trying to get away from the raging Ben Wallace. He was actively and knowingly contributing to his rage. That's what Ron Artest does. Everybody recognizes his Rodmanesque ability to get under peoples skin, it kind of surprises me that people don't recognize that that is what he was doing here.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> How could you look at it any other way? Did you watch the game? Did you watch Ron Artest?
> 
> Why would he lay on the scorers table in a relaxed position, he wasn't sitting on it, he was laying back lounging on it. You don't think that's disrespectful?


Why is it disrespectful? Tell me exactly what's "disrespectful" about it. Who is he disrespecting? How could he have properly respected Wallace and Detroit? 

Should he have fought Wallace? Should he have kept lunging at him, trying to get to him? Should he have thrown stuff at Wallace? Would that have been the respectful thing to do?

What if he had layed on the ground instead of the scorer's table? Would he have still been disrespectful?

It's not like Artest danced around saying "Na Na Na Na Na, you can't get me!!"



> I'm not saying he was supposed to do anything, he's a grown man- he can do what he wants, but you can't say the actions he took helped to difuse the situation.


Except that the situation was actually fairly calm and was at the point of being resolved right before Artest got pelted in the face by the fan.

Artest could have done much worse after Wallace shoved him in the face. Like actually tackled him to the ground or punched him, which is what everyone was expecting him to do. Yet, you're actually lambasting a guy with a notorious bad temper for staying calm and walking away from a fight that could've been fairly brutal.

Amazing.



> If he had walked away and sat on the bench the cup wouldn't have been thrown, I really believe that.


Obviously, since he was in point-blank range of the fans and an easy target. That means nothing, really.



> You can't honestly say he was removing himself from the situation, if he was trying to get away from Wallace, why would he plant himself in a prone position just outside of Wallace's reach?


So instead, he should have ran far far away from Wallace? Why?

Why give Wallace a free pass here? He was still going after Artest when it was obvious Artest didn't want a fight. He even threw a towel at the guy. But Artest gets the blame just for simply laying on a scorer's table?


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

*Um*

he was talking to the local Detroit station, what did he do wrong again? 


Mike be objective about this, you have been biased from the start.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> Why give Wallace a free pass here? He was still going after Artest when it was obvious Artest didn't want a fight. He even threw a towel at the guy. But Artest gets the blame just for simply laying on a scorer's table?


who the hell is giving wallace a free pass here?

and since when is laying on the scorer's table referenced as "simply laying on the scorer's table"? I have never seen anyone doing it in an NBA game. I can't believe people can't see that what he did didn't help the calming down of the situation at all (well, if you consider that he could have gone after wallace, then he maybe helped a bit). I mean, who the hell goes laying on the scorer's table in a situation like that? of course, wallace's actions until the drink was thrown were way worse.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>el_Diablo</b>!
> 
> 
> who the hell is giving wallace a free pass here?


Compared to Artest. And I'm talking about before him going up in the stands.

Wallace viciously shoves Artest and continues going after him, Artest decides not to get involved and lays on the table, and people still criticize Artest for *that*. Wallace was *much* more at fault at that point.



> and since when is laying on the scorer's table referenced as "simply laying on the scorer's table"? I have never seen anyone doing it in an NBA game. I can't believe people can't see that what he did didn't help the calming down of the situation at all (well, if you consider that he could have gone after wallace, then he maybe helped a bit). I mean, who the hell goes laying on the scorer's table in a situation like that? of course, wallace's actions until the drink was thrown were way worse.


You forget that the situation was calm before Artest was hit by the fan, so could it have been that bad? So if you're arguing that what Artest did was really that horrible, then you're saying he deserved to get hit in the face by the beer cup.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Why are you still arguing with the Piston fans Spriggan?

They are now known forever as the bane of the NBA in fandom and hooliganism. Enjoy the moniker you jerks, you earned it.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> It's not like Artest danced around saying "Na Na Na Na Na, you can't get me!!"


In a nutshell, this is exactly what he was doing.

I'm not giving Ben Wallace a free pass in anyway. I never have.

If you read my post, I didn't even say laying on the table was wrong, there is no rule against it, he wasn't hurting anyone so, techinically it's not wrong.

I'm just saying it wasn't helping things. And don't give me the "what else could he have done" stuff. You're telling me laying down on the scorers table was the best thing he could have done?

Artest was doing it to mess with Ben's head, plain and simple. That is what Artest ALWAYS does. He messess with peoples heads. Do you deny Artest does this and is very good at it?

Of course Wallace was at fault for the initial scuffle, who has ever said anything different? No matter how much a player is messing with you you are never in the right to hit them.

Also the situation was not calm before Artest got hit, the refs were still nowhere to be found and Ben was still being restrained, he should have been out of there long before. It's the refs job to get security in there and take control of the situation, they really dropped the ball.

DaFuture, I didn't say he did anything wrong. All I'm saying is he didn't remove himself from the situation like everyone thinks he did. Seriously, tell me what good can come from him grabbing a headset and giving a mock interview.

And don't give me that biased crap. That's bull****. I'm not favoring anyone here. I'm simply stating my observations of what Artest was doing. And to me it was obvious, even before the cup was thrown that Artest laying on the table was pissing people off.

Quit focussing on the whether or not he was right or wrong to lay on the table, focus on what the fans and Wallace's reaction to that image.

They OBVIOUSLY didn't like it. And don't think for a second that that isn't exactly whan Artest wanted.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Why are you still arguing with the Piston fans Spriggan?
> 
> They are now known forever as the bane of the NBA in fandom and hooliganism. Enjoy the moniker you jerks, you earned it.


You are out of control. You have continuosly bashed the Piston's fan base even though it has been explicitly forbidden on the main page.

You have no more class than the morons at the Palace.

It's amazing to me that you are allowed to be a moderator when you harbor so much ugly hate for groups of people. You make posts over the summer about all the dangerous stereotyping done by the national media of our olympic team, and now doing the exact same thing the media did. That is the definition of a hypocrite.

And unfortunatly, I don't have the option of simply ignoring because amazingly enough, you are a mod.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Mike, I'm not a moderator. I'm just a poster. I'm a moderator of my own forum, because I pay my money multiple times to support the site. The only posts I can edit are in my own forum.

You don't like it? Tough. Stop posting.


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## Critic (Jun 19, 2003)

*Re: This isn't a sport!!!*



> Originally posted by <b>UndergroundBaller</b>!
> There are no words to express for what I think of Stern and the NBA!!! The NBA is ****ing joke! The Pistons just eliminated their only competition in the east. Only a ****ing idiot wouldn't guess that the Heat and Pistons are going to the Eastern conference Finals now.
> NBA isn't a sport; it's a ****ing scripted money makin machine.
> Stern wants Heat and the Pistons to succed...
> ...


Your kidding right! Thats the most stupid and paranoid conspiracy theory based post I think Ive ever seen on this website. *edited: No personal attacks*


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> I'm just saying it wasn't helping things. And don't give me the "what else could he have done" stuff. You're telling me laying down on the scorers table was the best thing he could have done?


No, but it was far from the worst thing he could've done. In fact, taking everything into consideration, it was a *good thing* for him to do so. You have to consider that he's Ron Artest, and the fact that he actually walked away from a fight is amazing in and of itself. I think you have to take that into consideration.



> Artest was doing it to mess with Ben's head, plain and simple. That is what Artest ALWAYS does. He messess with peoples heads. Do you deny Artest does this and is very good at it?
> Also the situation was not calm before Artest got hit, the refs were still nowhere to be found and Ben was still being restrained, he should have been out of there long before. It's the refs job to get security in there and take control of the situation, they really dropped the ball.


Right before Artest was hit, the announcers said something to the effect of "well, at least the situation is calming now".

Was Artest mocking Wallace? Probably, although Wallace was embarrassing himself much more than Artest was embarrassing him. But I think it was deserving. He got shoved in the face by the guy for committing basically an everyday foul. Mocking Wallace isn't what led to Artest being hit by the beer cup. It wasn't that he layed on the scorer's table and held a mock interview with the Pacers guys. It was that he layed on the scorer's table in plain view of some drunk Pistons fans who saw him as an easy target that wouldn't strike back because they're simply some anonymous, untouchable fan in the crowd. A reality check ensued.

The fan is probably thinking "look there's Artest, I hate that guy. Did you see how he fouled Big Ben? He's in plain view, so I think I'll throw my cup at his face, because I'm drunk and angry." They were angered at the foul Artest committed, and whether you want to admit it or not, losing to their hated rivals at home by 15. I doubt Artest laying on the scorer's table is what pushed them over the edge, but the fact that he was laying there right next to the fans made him an easy, no-miss target to get stuff thrown at him.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> *Spriggan wrote*
> Compared to Artest. And I'm talking about before him going up in the stands.
> 
> Wallace viciously shoves Artest and continues going after him, Artest decides not to get involved and lays on the table, and people still criticize Artest for that. Wallace was much more at fault at that point.


I don't see anyone saying artest acted worse than wallace before the drink was thrown. please read what you quoted on me below. the last line.



> *el_Diablo wrote:*
> and since when is laying on the scorer's table referenced as "simply laying on the scorer's table"? I have never seen anyone doing it in an NBA game. I can't believe people can't see that what he did didn't help the calming down of the situation at all (well, if you consider that he could have gone after wallace, then he maybe helped a bit). I mean, who the hell goes laying on the scorer's table in a situation like that? *of course, wallace's actions until the drink was thrown were way worse.*





> *Spriggan wrote*
> You forget that the situation was calm before Artest was hit by the fan, so could it have been that bad? So if you're arguing that what Artest did was really that horrible, then you're saying he deserved to get hit in the face by the beer cup.


I'm not arguing what artest did was really horrible, I'm just wondering how someone can state that he did all he could to end the initial scuffle by laying on the scorer's table. he fanned the flames, which was smart because it got big ben even more pissed, and probably lenghtened ben's ban. 

rodman, one of my favourite players, would have done the same, and I would have applauded him for it just like I applaud artest now. IT WAS A SMART THING TO DO. it certainly doesn't warrant getting a drink thrown to you by a fan, you are correct. 

but if someone throws a drink on you, it certainly isn't a smart thing to storm the stands.


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## XYRYX (Jul 29, 2002)

I’ve seen the tapes being available on the net now for several times and I’m still thinking A LOT about the whole thing all day. 

The things that are most on my mind are the following:

I was really surprised about Artests reaction after Wallace hit him! He did nothing.....

I’m not sure if he only did nothing because it was Big Ben. If someone would show me the video for the first time and would stop it after Wallace hit him and would ask me what would happen next. I would have bet a lot of money that Artest would go crazy and that he would have gone after him. But he didn’t. That’s the biggest thing that should have to be taken into consideration, imo.

While he was laying on the scorers table and the cup hit him(in the face?) and he went crazy then, I asked myself what has happen? There must have been more than just the thrown cup to let this punk go crazy. I know the fact that he has a history of assaulting media guys or other players, but I still believe that there have been things very harsh things told by the (drunken) HOOLIGANS that should have been reason why all this happened. 

I don’t want to excuse his reaction but there must have been a reason why he went crazy because he stayed cool after Wallace hit him. 

Going into the stands is clearly unexcusable and that was his biggest fault of the evening. 

He was attacked several times by so called fans and this wasn’t just because they tried to save themselves. Some of them went after him for no reason. If I would have been in the stands and a 250 pound maniac would jump right next to me to attack someone, I definetly wouldn’t attack him! I’ve been in a few hard fights in my life too but my 2 cents that I wouldn’t attack him. 

The one to blame shouldn’t be Artest imo. Jackson is the one to blame. He jumped into the stands and attacked someone for no reason. Artest had a reason why he went into the stands even it was clearly the biggest fault of his career. But Jackson went after a guy and was hitting him really hard in the face. FOR NO REASON! I think it was Gill? who tried to hold him back. Artest didn’t hit the guy he went after! I haven’t seen him throw a punch in the stands!!! He was pulling him down to the ground and was screaming at him. Maybe he even wasn’t trying to pull him to the ground, he just fell over one of the seats but that is just a speculation and can’t be considered. 

I don’t hate Artest for what he did, it was the worst decision he could have made. BUT
Stephen freakin Jackson was the one who made the situation even worse. He HAD NO REASON for hitting someone, he was involved into nothing! 

This was the first incident happened Friday evening. 

I still can’t believe what has happened after that. The thrown cup and Artest jumping into the stands incident happen way to fast that any security guards have been able to do something. BUT after what happened in the stands, how can some fans go after some pacers players ON THE COURT???? 

Artest was done with the situation after he left the stands and he still hadn’t thrown a single punch at anybody! 

Then he hit the fat *** guy in the face because he thought that he was trying to attack him. I still believe this! Why the hell can fans walk on the court to go after players? (The same can be said for Artest going into the stands but this happened to fast to hold him back). Especially after what happened in the stands just a minute before! 

AND then Jermaine O’Neal! This stupid ******* running across the court to land a running monster hit at a guy, that even wasn’t the one Artest was hitting! 

Artests 1 year suspension is a joke considering the things Jackson and O’Neal have done! Both were hitting some guys FOR NO REASON! That’s ridicules! 

I say it again, Artest made the biggest Mistake of his career by jumping into the stands to go after that guy, who hadn’t thrown the ****ing cup already! 

BUT Stephen freakin Jackson was the one who has thrown the first punches(after the fans were attacking Artest). This stupid edit! The same for O’Neal, he punched someone who was innocent. 


Artest isn’t innocent in any category! 

BUT he hadn’t punched anybody until he hit he fat guy on the court. 

Blame O’Neal, Jackson and the security guys for the biggest chaos ever happened in an NBA game!!!

EDIT: You have asked not to make generalizations about the Pistons fans. 

Sorry to say it, but they got what they deserved! I hate violence in every way and I feel sorry for the young kids and families to see adult fans doing these things!


BTW, who is the guy in the brown street clothes, who hit the fat guy on the ground just a second before O’Neal is launching his final shot at the *******?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Chuck Person was the one in the suit. Do you even know who Chuck Person is?

Also, Stephen Jackson didn't just hit a random guy. The guy doused Artest in the face with a beverage, which caused Jackson to hit him. Jackson didn't swing until that happened. After that happened, he began getting restained by Pacer players David Harrison and James Jones. 

Are you sure you watched the tapes closely enough?


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## XYRYX (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Chuck Person was the one in the suit. Do you even know who Chuck Person is?
> 
> Also, Stephen Jackson didn't just hit a random guy. The guy doused Artest in the face with a beverage, which caused Jackson to hit him. Jackson didn't swing until that happened. After that happened, he began getting restained by Pacer players David Harrison and James Jones.
> ...


Yes I do know who Chuck Person is. 


If we are talking about how bad it was that Artest went after a guy that has thrown his drink after Artest or it seems to Artest that it was this guy, we have to talk about Jackson and O'Neal hitting fans who didn't something against O'Neal or Harrison!

I can't understand why people blame Artest for everthing happend. He was the only one who had a reason to hit somebody if somebody at all had. 

And the O'Neal punch was the most unnecessary thing happened that evening along with the Person punch  

The more I think about it, the only one I feel sorry for is Reggie Miller. He has lost all his chances now of winning the title.


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## Zach (May 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>-James-</b>!
> i feel its time for a club...
> 
> the "I'm voting for Ron Ron and JO for all star weekend" club



I already have an Artest one


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## XYRYX (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I already have an Artest one


Fine Zach,

ADD ME!:yes:


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> The fan is probably thinking "look there's Artest, I hate that guy. Did you see how he fouled Big Ben? He's in plain view, so I think I'll throw my cup at his face, because I'm drunk and angry." They were angered at the foul Artest committed, and whether you want to admit it or not, losing to their hated rivals at home by 15. I doubt Artest laying on the scorer's table is what pushed them over the edge, but the fact that he was laying there right next to the fans made him an easy, no-miss target to get stuff thrown at him.


I think that's where we disagree then.

I think had he not laid on the scorers table the drink never would have been thrown. 

You are exactly right that everyone was already on edge because of the loss, which is why many fans viewed the table thing as slap in the face not only to Wallace, but to the fans as well. From my couch, watching the game live, I know I wasn't mad at Artest about the situation until I saw him on the table, that INSTANTLY struck me as inapropriate, maybe other people didn't see it that way, but a lot of people did. It absolutely doesn't excuse throwing stuff at him, but I think it was the biggest contributing factor to it happening.

And as an aside, he wasn't an easy no miss target. It doesn't look like it from ESPN's camera angle, but I saw a video of it form the side and the distance covered is a lot bigger than it looked. It's amazing that the guy was able to even hit Artest, let alone in the face. Kind of weird to think this could have been avoided if it wasn't for that miracle toss.

I also don't know how big a factor alcohol had to play in this. It's easy to say the fan was drunk, but I actually doubt it. There is a 2 beer limit at the Palace like most sports arenas, and sales stop after the 3rd quarter. Also, I've been to the Palace many times, and clearly recognize the cup that hit him as a soft drink cup, not beer. For all we know the guy may not have been drinking at all, and even if he was, he was a fairly big guy and I doubt 2 beers could alter his thought process to any significant level.

This is why the only people I've really firmly been in defense of in this situation is the Palace. It's easy to blame things on security and alcohol, but in my mind blame has to rest with individuals, everyone is responsible for their own actions.

And on to another point.

I really don't think it's that surprising that Ron didn't go after Wallace but then snapped when provoked by a fan.

A lot of people want to take the easy way out and say Ron was scared of Wallace and not the fan, but everyone knows that's not Ron Artest.

The reason Ron remained so calm while dealing with Ben is he was in control of the situation. Ron succeeded in getting Ben to lose his cool, and from that point he knew he just had to play it cool and Ben would get suspended and the Pacers would benefit from it. When you poke and poke and poke and poke at someone, you are looking for a reaction, not a fight. Ron ISN'T a dumb a guy. He knew he was gaining something out of Wallace going crazy and I think that made it easy for him to keep his cool. When the fan attacked him however, he lost control of the situation, there was no longer a reward for letting it slide, and he snapped. Up until he had the cup thrown at him, things were happening the way HE wanted them to, and after that he no longer had control of the situation.

That's my take on it at least.

And before someone comes out and says I'm just biased, ask yourself what reason I would have for favoring anyone in this situation. 

It's easy to see what happened, I'm trying to understand what happened and all this typing helps.

Any constructive criticisim is appreciated and anyone who wants to respond with a petty "Pistons fans are the bane of the NBA" can go to hell.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

Ron Artest's picture will forever be entrenched in the NBA Rule book.


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> You are the blind one if you think Artest was simply calming himself down on the scorers table.
> ...


Agreed. It wasn't wrong of Artest to lie down on the table, but the common sense decision for him to make was to back to his bench. Lying down on the table isn't exactly a common action for athletes to do to "calm down". Artest was clearly trying to show Wallace up, only further supported by him putting that headset on. Very immature.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

That's fine Mike. We've both said our piece. We obviously have different opinions on the situation and won't be changing each other's minds. We see things differently, simple as that. I respect your opinion, and I'll just leave it at that. This argument could go on forever.

:cheers:


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## mavsman (Jun 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> I think had he not laid on the scorers table the drink never would have been thrown.


Mike is absolutely correct on this. I had the exact same reaction to Artest lying on the the table. He was just being a smug jerk. The idea that he was doing it to calm the situation down is laughable.

I saw Mark Jackson on ESPN this morning saying that the way Ron Artest acted in Chicago was a cry for help and the way he has acted in Indianapolis is a cry for help and that the NBA and the Pacers should not toss this guy aside but should help him. My question to that is What is he babbling about? What is the NBA or the Pacers suppose to do with a guy like Artest? Have him committed to insane asylum maybe? What does that even mean? Help him do what? They have been trying to fix Artest for years. Some people just don't want to be fixed and until Artest's brain chemistry changes he is likely to be the same jerk that he has been for all these years.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

He didn't care when that little guy in the stands was crying for help...he needs to own his own problems. The guy ain't right.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Why are you still arguing with the Piston fans Spriggan?
> 
> They are now known forever as the bane of the NBA in fandom and hooliganism. Enjoy the moniker you jerks, you earned it.


It's obvious that this was missed in moderation. This is only this guys 100th attack on the entire Detroit fanbase.


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## JPBulls (Aug 15, 2003)

The funniest part is that the guys that think that the suspensios were to severe are the ones that are saying that the fans should be arrested...

Throw a beer, PRISON!!!

Swing at people because you are mad, 10 games would be enough...

Stern isn´t the police, he can´t just take the fans and make them pay a fine or suspend them, he doesn´t have the power. He did have the power to suspend Artest and the other guys involved and made the right thing. Here in Brazil the fans trhow beer and worst thinks at the players all the time, they are completaly wrong, but fans are emotional, here is just impossible to identify who trow the things, but in the USA I always see people being "invited" to leave the arena for making something stupid, and that would have ocurried this time too, but Artest decided he would like to just hit the guy, it´s simple and is basic, YOU CAN´T DO WHAT YOU THINK IS FAIR, YOU SHOULD DO WHAT IS ALLOWED!!! Just for an example, if one of my sisters were raped I would want kill the guy who did it to her, but if I did that I would be arrested, with reason, and for a longer time than the guy that rapped my sister. This is fair?? I don´t think so, but YOU DON´T STOP VIOLENCE WITH VIOLENCE, just some basic things that are lost in the emotion, I know the exemple is extreme, but I think my point is clear.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>JPBulls</b>!
> Stern isn´t the police, he can´t just take the fans and make them pay a fine or suspend them, he doesn´t have the power. He did have the power to suspend Artest and the other guys involved and made the right thing. Here in Brazil the fans trhow beer and worst thinks at the players all the time, they are completaly wrong, but fans are emotional, here is just impossible to identify who trow the things, but in the USA I always see people being "invited" to leave the arena for making something stupid, and that would have ocurried this time too, but Artest decided he would like to just hit the guy, it´s simple and is basic, YOU CAN´T DO WHAT YOU THINK IS FAIR, YOU SHOULD DO WHAT IS ALLOWED!!! Just for an example, if one of my sisters were raped I would want kill the guy who did it to her, but if I did that I would be arrested, with reason, and for a longer time than the guy that rapped my sister. This is fair?? I don´t think so, but YOU DON´T STOP VIOLENCE WITH VIOLENCE, just some basic things that are lost in the emotion, I know the exemple is extreme, but I think my point is clear.


If someone raped your sister, you wouldn't go beat the crap out of them? Because that would be technically illegal, and yet somehow, the right thing to do.


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## brighty (Apr 8, 2004)

does anybody realize that artest tried to leave the scorers table twice but was restrained back. where else was he supposed to go. reggie was watching him the whole time.


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## JPBulls (Aug 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> If someone raped your sister, you wouldn't go beat the crap out of them? Because that would be technically illegal, and yet somehow, the right thing to do.


I would, but I would be arrested because of that, that´s how the things are done in our society, and altough I wouldn´t care if I would be arrested and would do the same thing 10 times out of 10 I can´t say that I disagre that I should be arrested.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>JPBulls</b>!
> 
> 
> I would, but I would be arrested because of that, that´s how the things are done in our society, and altough I wouldn´t care if I would be arrested and would do the same thing 10 times out of 10 I can´t say that I disagre that I should be arrested.


That's my entire opinion on the Artest matter. What he did was wrong, and he should have been punished for it, but I would have done the same.


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> That's my entire opinion on the Artest matter. What he did was wrong, and he should have been punished for it, but I would have done the same.


After recollecting my thoughts and trying to get over the incident (unsuccessfully so far) I have changed my point of view to a more objective level. 

What Artest did (and SJax and JO consequently) was illegall, but it was sure as hell legitimate (I hope I used the right word). Although he probably knew that he would face consequences for his actions, he did what any human being caught in the moment would have done (and I do not blame him for acting human). And all of you who claim that you would have just walked away, I have trouble beleiving you. Human self control has in my opinion a line. And Artest's line was crossed. I admire him for not responding to Ben. But the line was clearly crossedafter that. And we all know that he is not the most patient and self-controlled guy in the league.

But to elave this aside, I would like to coment on another thing. Concerning this forum. I think that we all should come to realize that as every story has two sides, so does this one. I think that we should stop arguing about who was to blame, and who was the bigger jerk and what would have happened if...and so on because just look at it . Almost 80 or so pages, numerous threads and what have we accomplished? They are still two groups of people (as not many were left cold after the incident and have no opinion on this) and no matter how good the arguments and everything, it's hard to change someone's opinion about such a thing. I truly respect you people (to agree with beez), I read excellent posts, great arguments from both sides, and that has convinced me to stay here, to participate, to share my opinions, to be active, etc...To write this myelf.

A lot of people think that Artest is to blame and a lot of people think otherwise. And it will stay at that. No matter how hard I try to look at this from another angle I just cannot see the just in Stern's decision. Banning one of the best players for the entire season, suspending an additional two, and decimating Indy's roster, while no actions against Detroit and their fans are taken is unacceptable, but anyway that's how the chief decided. He must set an example so that such nonsense will not reoccur. And you have got to give him some credit for that, as it must have been one tough decision (I do not like it however).

I simply cannot get over this situation, I completely understand both sides of the story and I see now that my first reaction was exaggerated, but nontheless your first reaction is usually the right one. So I still believe that Artest did the right thing, even though not the correct thing (legal that is). Rules should be obeyed, Artest shouldn't have reacted the way he did, but I understand that reaction as I would probably react in the same way. 

The fans were not innocent as many try to make them look, the cup was not empty, Artest was provoked and he responded the way he did. What followed could have been prevented, but how? With unhuman self-restraint. Yes they are pros, yes they get paid ridiculous numbers to play, but still, they are expected to be sitting ducks out there, so that drunk and angry fans can use them for target practice? Come on. Stern's actions clearly show, that fans are untouchable, while the players cannot even exercise their basic right to defend themselves. 

Ok, Artest could have walked to the center of the court, he could have done a million other things, but he chose to do what he did. To defend. Was it right? Yes. Was it right according to the rules (and laws even)? Absolutely not. And he got punished for his actions. But the question is how just were those punishments. I think that his penalty being prolonged due to his previous incidents is not fair at all. If it was another player, it would have been 30 for sure. But let me stop speculating like this. I hope that the suspensions will be shortened, although I think there are not much chances for that to happen as Stern would make himself look an even bigger idiot.

Anyways, don't know how much sense I am making right now, so I would just like to add that I am deply dissapointed in everything that has happened since friday night. It hurts me as a basketball and sports fan that this had to happen. And I am sorry that so many people had to witness that. I mean, it is being brought up even by people completely remote to the game, and it has a very negative image on the NBA. I know this is not the time to be thinking about image, but I dread what consequences this will have. When people who are in this for so long (beez for example) state that they are giving up watching basketball and stuff like that, you have to wonder how many fans has the NBA lost during this weekend. I am sorry that all of this happened, especially when you realize that it all could have been so easily prevented.

Ok I'll stop now, there's so much I want to say, but I got a hunch that I'll be making even less sense if I countinue. 

Peace


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## aj_lakers (May 18, 2003)

I believe Artest did the wrong thing, but i believe in the circumstances i may have done the same thing. This kind of incident is not without precedent when looking at the global sports picture - it is merely one of the most visible incidents in nba history (see vernon maxwell, rodman)and as such will be a watershed moment from both a legal and ehtical standpoint. In no way am i saying that this is not an extreme occassion -however there is precedent with the maxwell incident in particular. 

Having said that, i have several problems with how this has been handled. The first problem i have is with the use of artest's former background as a determining factor in the length of suspension - allowing this to be an issue makes for a volatile situation should this event be duplicated and furthermore opens up immediately for room to appeal the decision. By Stern admitting to this, he has potentially opened himself and the nba up to a civil suit of their own by ron artest who will lose 5.5 million in salary, playoff bonuses and will have this as a scar when he next negotiates a contract. As such, Stern has placed the nba in an actionable position whether you agree with the suspension or not.

Second is the extreme punishment of jermaine o'neal in comparison with that of stephen jackson who was guilty of much more. O'neal will likely face civil and possibly criminal charges in relation to THAT punch in front of the pacers bench. By Stern deeming his behaviour as bad as jackson's (5 games less only) Stern has not protected o'neal in the event of a criminal case. If stern had sent a message that fans could not enter the field of play under any circumstances and for that reason o'neal's actions are far different to that of jackson's; o'neals's position in this mess would be a lot clearer as there would be a clear distinction between diving into the stands and defending yourself and your team on the field of play.

My final concern is the relatively light punishment of ben wallace. In particular i am concerned by the footage of him throwing the towel at artest moments before the fan throws the cup. Artest lying down was a taunt, but wallace's actions were just as bad up to that point and i felt that was the moment things got out of hand. 

I know this has been a long post but finally i would like to say that i dont think this has to have a lasting negative impact on the league. If handled correctly without kneejerk responses, it could actually help reignite passions of a lot of people to the sport. I know its something noone wants to admit but its true, just look at the ratings the nba will have on xmas day, now it wont just be people tuning in to see kobe vs shaq.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Plastic Man</b>!
> The fans were not innocent as many try to make them look, the cup was not empty, Artest was provoked and he responded the way he did.


I hate to pick out one thing from such a large post, but it's what strong me the most. For some reason people (not just you Plastic Man) continue to put words in people's mouths. You are going to be hardpressed to find one person here that thinks the Pistons fans were innocent Friday night. And yet it keeps getting said that there is a group of people that condones the Pistons fans actions. This is just not true.


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

I agree with you. I may have put it the wrong way and it sounded too harsh. I was not aiming or reffering to the posters (Detroit fans or not) on this board. I honestly believe that none of them consider the fans that were involved innocent. But I've read so much comments and summaries and all kind of crap during these three days, and I have come across so much BS, that I found a lot of people (especially journalists who are supposed to be unbiased and objective) trying to present the involved fans as innocent. I can't for example believe that a journalist who states that he knows Wallace the most writes such a biased article and at the same time tries to present it as the most unbiased and correct ---> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/chris_mannix/11/20/pacers.react/index.html

Another example are some comments in the petition etc...This is what bothered me the most. But again, I put it the wrong way. In no way do I believe that there are many people with similar opinion, that not only condone but also approve of that kidn of behaviour by the fans involved.

Jvanbusk I did not in any way mean that there are fans on this board who condone that kind of behaviour, nor was I trying to attack the Pistons fanbase (not on this board, not in general as well)...

I consider myself a rational man, and as such I will not let a couple of bad examples make me change my opinion about the Detroit Pistons. You still have my respect as the reigning champions etc. But they are a few people (not here maybe, but there still are) who honestly believe that those fans had absolutely nothing to do with the whole thing. I say we leave it at that.

Ok, that's pretty much it, I think. 

Peace


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## mavsman (Jun 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Plastic Man</b>!
> The fans were not innocent as many try to make them look, the cup was not empty, Artest was provoked and he responded the way he did. What followed could have been prevented, but how? With unhuman self-restraint. Yes they are pros, yes they get paid ridiculous numbers to play, but still, they are expected to be sitting ducks out there, so that drunk and angry fans can use them for target practice? Come on. Stern's actions clearly show, that fans are untouchable, while the players cannot even exercise their basic right to defend themselves.


I find these arguments which talk about the players only defending themselves as ridiculous. Can anyone here actually try and claim that Artest felt in danger and only needed to defend himself? He felt disrespected and he was going to pound the guy that disrespected him into the ground. That is what going after the guy who threw the plastic cup was about. How dare he disrespect me? It was the same with Steven Jackson. He threw the haymaker at a guy who splashed beer or soda or water, whatever it was at Artest. Was Jackson thinking that getting Artest wet was endangering his life, no. He felt is was disrespect and he was going to make the guy pay for disrespecting him.

The players may in fact have been defending themselves once the near riot broke out but there was no defending themselves prior to that. It was all about being disrespected so they started a riot and because of that were forced to defend themselves.


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

i think the pacers can still make the playoffs we almost beat orlando with 6 players once we get our injured guys back well be ok and theres still half th season left when jo and sjax get back. if we get a low seed in the playoffs i feel sorry for the team that has to play us.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I already have an Artest one


JO is good enough i suppose... add me to your club tho


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## cheepseats (Nov 3, 2004)

No one is going to like this one….

I have long felt that Detroit has some of the rudest home fans (NBA) dating back to glamorization of the original Bad Boys. I was once a visiting fan of another team who wore beer and popcorn out of the building. That being said, I don’t fault the Fans too much in this incident. To the fans caught-up in the moment, this was akin to watching a TV Show or playing a Video Game and having the bad guys jump right out of the screen. Then these bad guys start pounding on people in your living room -- What are you going to do? Ok, the guy who originally dumped the water may have crossed the line but the Pacers pretended as if the line was never there.

The NBA should have also come down harder in Jackson, and they probably would have if it weren’t for J. O’Neal (one of the NBA darlings) getting caught-up in the melee when it spilled out onto the court. Jermain’s biggest problem was he sucker-punched a cop. Lots of the security were not in uniform (at least uniforms we can discern) and they were there being slugged by the Pacers and Fans alike. It takes special training and an obvious presence to quell riots.

I think that both Jackson and O’Neal (and the rest of the team) should undergo anger management that includes exorcizing Artest to Europe where he can recruit soccer fans to become BB fans. He may even work a deal to offer his CD as a bonus to new converts.

I think that the guy that got raw deal here was B. Wallace (who is also an NBA darling). In any other game or forum, his punishment would not have been so severe. The push was not has bad as what Arest was doing to him (legally because the refs were not call it) for no reason other than trying to injure him. Throwing towel (which is like nothing) could only be construed as “really bad” if it as thrown-in with anticipation of a liquid heading Artest’s way (which would of meant Ben was in on that).

Finally, from the Who would of thunk-it category --- R. Wallace both on floor and in stands trying to be Peace Maker? Hey maybe there’s hope for Artest after all.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

*So Stern's message...*

to the fans is, "go ahead and get your teams rival out of the contest, it'll be all the players' faults"?

Why isn't Detroit forced to not sell concessions, or forced to forfeit their next 10 or so home games?

That, as well as the length of O'neal's suspension is the point of the consequence that most irks me.


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

That is not the message at all. The players are Stern's employees, the fans are not.

What else can Stern do to the fans other than ban them from all NBA games (which has/will probably happen).

Just because he suspended the players doesn't mean he puts all blame on them.


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>mavsman</b>!
> 
> 
> I find these arguments which talk about the players only defending themselves as ridiculous. Can anyone here actually try and claim that Artest felt in danger and only needed to defend himself? He felt disrespected and he was going to pound the guy that disrespected him into the ground. That is what going after the guy who threw the plastic cup was about. How dare he disrespect me? It was the same with Steven Jackson. He threw the haymaker at a guy who splashed beer or soda or water, whatever it was at Artest. Was Jackson thinking that getting Artest wet was endangering his life, no. He felt is was disrespect and he was going to make the guy pay for disrespecting him.
> ...


Ok not to heat things up, but I would like to defend my opinion.

So what dhas to happen in order for a person to stert defending? Should a bigger object been thrown at him? Should more people start throwing things at Artest? I do not understand. Yes, of course he must have felt disrespected. for Christ's sake, he get payed to play the game, to perform for 20k or so fans every night. The game is for the fans, and they treat the players in that way. Would you not have been disrespected? But there is no way that you can say with 100% that he acted only because of being disrespected. Only he knows that. But I seriously doubt that (even if he has such a repertoir) he would start something like this only because of feeling disrespected. 

Furthermore what bothers me. Answer me this. You have to be in life danger in order to start defending yourself? So Artest could have done what he did only if the fan pulled out a gun and pointed it at him? As I said, two sides to every story. I said that he had enough provocation and the drink triggered him of. I think that he was defending, and yes of course he felt disrespected. He is there for the fans and gets treated like a garbage can, not as a pro baller and not even close to a human being...And inspite all of this you expected a guy like Ron Artest to walk away? 

anyways peace


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Numbed One</b>!
> That is not the message at all. The players are Stern's employees, the fans are not.
> 
> What else can Stern do to the fans other than ban them from all NBA games (which has/will probably happen).
> ...


Because as commissioner of the NBA, he has a duty to protect the players, and in his consequence he is opening the door for example, for kings fans to provoke Kobe in attacking, in order to get him suspended for the year.


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## XYRYX (Jul 29, 2002)

I'd like to say something about the pistons fans and their "new" image as the hools in the league. 

Coming from Germany I do know more about Hooligans in Pro Sports than many other do in America, most likely I think. 

There are a lot of rivals between many soccer teams in the leagues. Especially the British and Italian “fans” are known for their behaviour against “other” teams. It is really hate. Not the, man I hate this guy or this team, they really hate each other! There are A FEW guys, who are going to games just to cause trouble. They even do meetings with the other fans to fight each other. Sometimes until some of them are dying. 

That is one of the most feared things to happen in pro sports here. 

After the incident, that happened last Friday, the Pistons fans will be known for a very long time as the hooligans or the worst fans in the league. 

I don’t say that they are this! And I’m not saying that the fans who have been in the fights with the pacers players went to the game to cause trouble. That would be complete BS because it never happened before. 


Thinking about it for a while, I’m wondering that this was the first time ever that a situation was so out of control, like last Friday in the Palace. 

The fans are sitting away from the court just a few feet. That’s really good, because you are “in the game” if you’re sitting right next to the court and it’s very exciting to see the players from such a near distance. But the other side of the story we’ve seen last Friday. 

So that it’s the first time that something like this ever happened in this kind of way, the pistons organisation will be remembered a long time as the team with the worst fan base in the league. 

In fact, it was only one guy who started this incident and I believe that that could have happened in every other arena in the league. I don’t know if the this fight with such a huge number of “fans” would have broken out in another arena. But it has.

There’ve been only a few guys in the stands who acted like complete idiots but they still have been there. 

And the pistons organisation will be remembered a long time until this will change. 

In Europe, there are a few football clubs who are known and feared for their fans. They are only a few fans considered the whole fan base but this few players are the ones who are the public image of the club!

And this is exactly the reason why people are thinking that the pistons have the worst fans in the world. 


BTW, a crowd full of letters @ the next home games which are printed witch words like sorry or something is the best way to show the world that most of the Detroit fans are sorry for what happen in the pacers game.


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Because as commissioner of the NBA, he has a duty to protect the players, and in his consequence he is opening the door for example, for kings fans to provoke Kobe in attacking, in order to get him suspended for the year.


Well if Kobe has half a brain (which he may not) he won't go into the crowd to try to settle the score himself like a *******. Then the fans will realize not all NBA players are reactionary, purely instinctual people with no brains like Ron Artest.

You act like anyone would react the way Artest did, and that is flat out wrong and stupid.

Besides, wait until something like that actually happens before you condemn Stern for it. Players have had things thrown at them before, and they haven't reacted the way Artest did. You have a brain, use it.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>XYRYX</b>!
> BTW, a crowd full of letters @ the next home games which are printed witch words like sorry or something is the best way to show the world that most of the Detroit fans are sorry for what happen in the pacers game.


Actually they showed the Pistons fans lining up at the tunnel, slapping hands and patting Bobcats on the back after the double overtime game last night.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Numbed One</b>!
> 
> 
> Well if Kobe has half a brain (which he may not) he won't go into the crowd to try to settle the score himself like a *******. Then the fans will realize not all NBA players are reactionary, purely instinctual people with no brains like Ron Artest.
> ...


Then why have a great majority of reports of players said they would have done as Artest did? You have reading comprehension skills, use those skills.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually they showed the Pistons fans lining up at the tunnel, slapping hands and patting Bobcats on the back after the double overtime game last night.


Maybe because their team won?


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Then why have a great majority of reports of players said they would have done as Artest did? You have reading comprehension skills, use those skills.


Yeah, we'll see when they're actually in his shoes. Most defend him punching fans once they started punching him when he was already in the crowd. Not many have explicitly said they defend him going into the crowd in the first place.

Besides, you seem to be the one lacking reading comprehension. I clearly said "Players have had things thrown at them before, and they haven't reacted the way Artest did. You have a brain, use it."


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