# Revised Knicks-Hawks Blockbuster Trade Idea (a much more reasonable idea this time)



## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

I've been thinking lately that, no matter WHAT Atlanta does this summer, they are probably going to be over the luxury tax threshold. No matter WHAT kind of blockbuster payroll-shedding deal they are able to pull off with the Knicks, they are going to be over the luxury tax threshold. Previous trade ideas involving these two teams was not taking this into consideration. Sorry for wasting everybody's time with those ideas.

I still think that Atlanta would love to get a hold of New York's #9 overall pick AND to shed as much payroll as possible this summer, but is it necessary for them to include a reasonably priced ($6.0-$6.5 mil) Jason Terry in this deal? Why would they not just hold onto Terry for themselves?

Also, that previous trade idea included Latrell Sprewell. The Hawks don't REALLY want this guy, and the Knicks don't REALLY want to just give him a way, he's a big player for the Knicks and he puts fans in the seats.

So here is my revised trade idea:

Shareef Abdur-Rahim (max player, two years remaining on his contract), Theo Ratliff (a near max player, a legit center but somebody who is not a big part of Atlanta's future, they are trying to get rid of this guy, two years remaining on his contract), and Alan Henderson (ridiculously overpaid, two years remaining on his contract, dumping his contract really makes this trade worth Atlanta's while) TO NEW YORK

FOR

New York's 2003 #9 overall first round pick (should net the Hawks a legit big guy, maybe Chris Kaman), Kurt Thomas (extremely reasonably priced big guy, two years remaining on his contract), Antonio McDyess (expiring contract), Charlie Ward (expiring contract, can be bought out this summer for $2 mil, the Hawks will do that, and this guy could very well end up right back in New York very shortly thereafter), and Travis Knight (expiring contract) TO ATLANTA

The Hawks clear an enormous amount of payroll, they get a pretty good prospect with that #9 overall pick, and they get a reasonably priced Kurt Thomas.

The Knicks get their legit inside scorer in Abdur-Rahim and a legit center and defensive presence in Ratliff. They merely have to take on Henderson's lousy contract (which, to be fair, will expire in just two years, there are plenty of worse contracts out there) and cough up their #9 overall pick. They are not going to get somebody who is going to carry them into the playoffs as a rookie with the #9 overall pick, so, since the Knicks are DETERMINED to make it back to the playoffs NEXT SEASON, this trade makes more sense than holding onto that pick.

Let's say the Hawks re-sign both Jason Terry AND Dion Glover. Let's also say they end up with Chris Kaman at #9 overall (I think he'll slip a little bit). Here is their 2003-04 starting lineup:

PG Jason Terry
SG Dion Glover
SF Glenn Robinson
PF Kurt Thomas
C Chris Kaman

Not a playoff team, but they have trimmed quite a bit of payroll, and something tells me that that team right there isn't much worse than the previous two Hawks incarnations.

As for the Knicks, well, they may want to get serious about bringing Milos Vujanic over AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, they may want to get him on over here NEXT SEASON, and if not, they could always try to steal away SCOTTIE PIPPEN from the Trailblazers. I actually kind of like little Howard Eisley, but as a backup, not as a starter. Anyway, let's say they steal away Pippen from the Blazers (I am skeptical that management wants to bring this guy back, especially after his late season injuries and Damon Stoudamire's late season rejuvenation), and that he platoons with Eisley at PG (so as to keep his minutes down and therefore keep him healthy for the playoffs), here is New York's starting lineup:

PG Scottie Pippen/Howard Eisley
SG Allan Houston
SF Latrell Sprewell
PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim
C Theo Ratliff

Now if THAT team cannot make the playoffs--after the Bucks let Gary Payton walk, after the Wiz lose MJ, after the Hawks seriously begin the rebuilding process--well, somebody needs to just go ahead and put Knicks fans out of their misery!


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## H2O (Jul 10, 2002)

That is more realistic and reasonable. I don't follow the Pippen signing, that has no chance whatsoever, and I still don't like the trade personally, but Abdur Rahim and Ratliff are good player to pick up while only giving up one starter. I could see NY wanting to pull that one.


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## W1Z0C0Z (Jun 18, 2002)

As a Knicks fan I guess we should do it.

That starting 5 of is a good group.
Eisley
Houston
Spree
Abdur-Rahim
Ratliff

I HATE to give up McDyess, but I guess we have to. I also don't see us getting Pippen at all. There's no point and he'll go to a better team.

In 2 years the only players we'll have under contract are..
Allan Houston
Shandon Anderson
Howard Eisley
Clarence Weatherspoon
Frank Williams

Those obviously arn't very good players with the exception of Houston, but we'll have tons of money to get players. We're one of the biggest markets and one of the most famous teams. We'll be able to draw FA's and be such a bad team that we'll get some nice picks for a few years.

2 years of the starting 5 mentioned at the top, which isn't horrible, then we can completely start over. It's the best for the team... I guess.


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## H2O (Jul 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>W1Z0C0Z</b>!
> In 2 years the only players we'll have under contract are..
> Allan Houston
> Shandon Anderson
> ...


Sorry man, but those five players you mention still put us over the cap. No big time FA's for NY till 2007. That's not the way we can rebuild.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

If I was a Knick fan I'd definetly do that trade


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>W1Z0C0Z</b>!
> I HATE to give up McDyess, but I guess we have to. I also don't see us getting Pippen at all. There's no point and he'll go to a better team.


First of all, what planet do you live on? Antonio McDyess' playing career is probably over. It's not looking good for this guy. Even if he attempts ANOTHER comeback, he'll almost certainly get hurt again pretty quickly. I mean, he didn't even make it through the preseason this year, fellas. I do NOT understand why so many sports fans do not realize that certain players are damaged goods and they are going to continue to BE damaged goods. McDyess, Grant Hill, Michael Dickerson, etc.--give up on these guys, fellas.

At this point, McDyess is merely an expiring contract. The only value he has is as an expiring contract.

As for thinking that "there's no point" in getting Scottie Pippen, who had a TERRIFIC year for Portland this year, TERRIFIC, well, uh, WHAT? You don't think you guys need to upgrade at PG? HOWARD EISLEY? Like I said, I like the guy, nice little sparkplug, but I like him as a backup, not as a starter. If Portland decides to let Pippen go this offseason--and who knows, maybe they'll want this guy back, I don't know--then he is available for cheap, for less than the MLE. He is a professional. He is a winner. He is a leader. He does so many things right out there on the basketball court. Beautiful basketball player. Listen to The Great Bill Walton when he tells you that Pippen is a beautiful basketball player, Walton can be ridiculous (which is what makes him so much fun), but he knows what he is talking about. When Walton argued at midseason that the midseason league-wide MVP was Scottie Pippen, well, that's obviously pretty over the top, but Pippen was a big BIG player for Portland this year. Pippen would be a terrific addition to the Knicks, fellas. And EVERYBODY wants to play in New York, EVERYBODY wants to play for the Knicks. The best place to play in the LEAGUE is Madison Square Garden, SO MUCH ENERGY, such devoted fans. Pippen would definitely be interested, especially if Portland isn't.


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## H2O (Jul 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!
> And EVERYBODY wants to play in New York, EVERYBODY wants to play for the Knicks. The best place to play in the LEAGUE is Madison Square Garden, SO MUCH ENERGY, such devoted fans.


Damn Right:yes: 

But anyways, I don't think Pippen would really want to come here, even that considered. It seems like it would be a frusturating, unfulfilling way to end your career.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

Yep, I'd go for this trade too. I think it's reasonable for both teams. I know it's not a quick road to contention for the Knicks...but no such road exists for them. They've made their own bed and will have to lie in it for a while yet. 

But adding Ratliff and Abdur-Rahim without giving up Sprewell make them much more interesting (and possibly more competitive) in the short term. I'd like to see whether Sprewell could ignite some passion in Shareef. 

I don't see Pippen to the Knicks, though. He would definitely be a nice addition, but I think he would seriously consider retiring if he couldn't land with a team that had a more serious shot at contending for a title. How would he look as a Net, for instance? Or a Spur?


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jericho</b>!
> But adding Ratliff and Abdur-Rahim without giving up Sprewell make them much more interesting (and possibly more competitive) in the short term. I'd like to see whether Sprewell could ignite some passion in Shareef.


Spree has been begging management for a frontcourt scorer for YEARS. The Knicks finally have a legit PF AND a legit C. I don't know about team chemistry, but the East should be bad enough next year that a return trip to the lottery would be pretty much IMPOSSIBLE for the Knicks if they pull off this trade.


> I don't see Pippen to the Knicks, though. He would definitely be a nice addition, but I think he would seriously consider retiring if he couldn't land with a team that had a more serious shot at contending for a title. How would he look as a Net, for instance? Or a Spur?


Hard to get a read on Pippen. I think Bob Whitsitt's exit means that Pippen's career in Portland is over. New Jersey is a good idea, actually. So is San Antonio. Good thinking. I think there will be quite a few contenders who would love to get their hands on Scottie Pippen this summer. I don't think he's going to retire. Players tend to stay around as long as somebody is willing to pay them. Somebody will give Pippen $3-$4 mil next year, so he'll be back. He won't get the money that he wants this summer, but he'll be able to play for pretty much whoever he wants, that's for sure. A return to Chicago is not an impossibility. Pippen is still a factor in this league.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

I understand that New York is a huge market, that they have many many many fans to please, this trade won;t work for them.

Theo Ratliff, Shareef Abdur Rahim, still 2 more years to go on their contracts and they are earning an average of $25 million a year. Add that with Houston and Sprewell's $30 million a year. And they still have the rest of the overpaid cast. Knicks aren't looking for more expensive players, I'm quite sure they are preparing to rebuild around Allan Houston, whether they like it or not. No solution is a solution when the team still has Latrell Sprewell. I think they will just wait until the end of next season and force Sprewell out of his contract, whether he puts fans in the seat or not. This is New York, a market that can recover.

Maybe Theo Ratliff for expiring contracts Larry Johnson and Charlie Ward, but the second Shareef Abdur Rahim comes in it not only adds ALOT of payroll of one player too the Knicks cap but the Knicks need Kurt Thomas more than Abdur Rahim. Rahim will give you everything Thomas and 5 more points. Thomas is VERY aggressive, cheap, and does all the dirty work, things which Rahim won't do. And I doubt Knicks even want to bargain on bringing another supposed star into their lineup that costs $15 million a year. Not to mention the jinx Knicks hardwood floor will probably put him on the IL for 2 months.


I really don't know what this team can do. What I can see happening is a first round draft pick, Larry Johnson (is his contract still valid) and Travis Knight to the Hawks for Theo Ratliff. I see teh Hawks at a point where they don't want any players at all that dont have expiring contracts. They WANT to go out quietly and come back with a BANG. That rhymes with James Lang. That also means that they'll trade all their big boys this summer, but not Abdur Rahim going to the knicks. He may end up in Phoenix for Googs and a draft pick, pushing Amare to center.


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## bealis (Mar 31, 2003)

*Layden too cautious for that trade*

Scott Layden has a track record for NOT doing the big deal. I think the Mcdyess trade was the first big deal he has ever done and that bit him in the ***. And in this case he would be doing the right thing. Layden is not going to make a deal for another extremely injury prone and past his time player in Ratliff, a big overpaid stiff in Henderson, and no heart Rahim. Everyone knows Rahim has never won anywhere including Knick fans. They would be out for Layden's head. That trade would leave them with an illusion of good players, but really nothing to show for it, and more hefty contracts with it.

The knicks would like to get rid of Mcdyess and there are bound to be takers. They need to gather young promising players and wait out or trade their large contracts. They are going to be bad anyway, and 8th in the east next year will be BAD.

There are certain to be people who will regurgitate the New York motto "New York won't tolerate a loser". Well it's way too late for that. The Knicks are losers and will always be losers if they continue down the same road. Knick fans are stupid if they allow the status quo. Hilario would have been huge for them and their future. I'm sure Layden wanted to rebuild years ago. Somebody should let him.


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## EwingStarksOakley94 (May 13, 2003)

*That trade sounds great but...*

It's probably wishful thinking. I don't want to give up that pick anyway. Even at number 9 we can't continue to just pass up on youth. That's what NY needs more than anything. I'm not making that trade unless we get a pick in return.


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## H2O (Jul 10, 2002)

*Re: Layden too cautious for that trade*



> Originally posted by <b>bealis</b>!
> Scott Layden has a track record for NOT doing the big deal. I think the Mcdyess trade was the first big deal he has ever done and that bit him in the ***. And in this case he would be doing the right thing. Layden is not going to make a deal for another extremely injury prone and past his time player in Ratliff, a big overpaid stiff in Henderson, and no heart Rahim. Everyone knows Rahim has never won anywhere including Knick fans. They would be out for Layden's head. That trade would leave them with an illusion of good players, but really nothing to show for it, and more hefty contracts with it.
> 
> The knicks would like to get rid of Mcdyess and there are bound to be takers. They need to gather young promising players and wait out or trade their large contracts. They are going to be bad anyway, and 8th in the east next year will be BAD.
> ...


Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Every single thing stated in this post is wrong.

How about trading Ewing? That blew up on us too, but you have to admit it was a big move. Also trading Glen Rice for scraps. Layden has made big moves, they are just all bad.

And it is doubtful that Layden is going to actually trade Mcdyess. He is clinging to the hope that he will return and lead this team to prominance. When questioned about Antonio, Scott responds like a small sullen child who just wants to be left alone. It's really insane, he gets very defensive and just says that this is a minor setback. I sometimes worry about what I consider to be Layden tentative grasp on reality.

And do you actually know any Knicks fans? Diehard ones, not hte guys who catch the occasional game. Check out hte Knicks forum, or talk to some people from NY. We pretty much all want to rebuild. The problem is the ownership, James Dolan, not wanting the Knicks to ever be out of the playoffs, so he can keep selling the season tickets and pulling in the big revenues. I am so sick of Knicks fans getting this bad rap as being stupid and unrealistic. All fans are biased to their teams, and some fans aren't that bright, but I have not found Knicks fans to be any worse than any other group.:nonono:


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## MPK (Oct 20, 2002)

*Re: Re: Layden too cautious for that trade*



> Originally posted by <b>H2O</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Every single thing stated in this post is wrong.
> ...



i would like to echo H20's sentiment's, but i really don't think this team will rebuild till houston's contract is done, so i think that any trade that can improve the knicks by bringing any sort of young talented players should be considered.


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## bealis (Mar 31, 2003)

I never said Knick fans were stupid. I only said Knick fans are stupid if they allow(okay, support) the same moves that Knicks management has made over the last decade. I was also saying that there are people who say "New York won't tolerate a loser". But I don't subscribe to this way of thinking. I think NY fans want to start fresh and the ownership won't allow it. They think people will keep coming to the games if they can pursuade the public they are trying to get better. Real Knick fans know management is taking the wrong approach.

I think we have different ideas about blockbuster trades. Ewing was a great player, but at the time of this trade he was on his last leg. Layden's has alway had a reputation for being cautious. This is hardly an original observation by me. He spent years in Utah not pulling the string on a potential deal, and not signing a particular free agent. I think his caution makes him a good GM, and that is why he won't make this particular deal. Do they have to do something? Yes. But Rahim is extremely overrated and extremely overpaid. Ratliff is way past his better years and is an injury waiting to happen, and is way overpaid. I don't need to say anything about the skills of Henderson, and he is way overpaid. That would leave them with more overpaid players than they have now for a longer period of time and for what? One notch higher in the east. Still a bad team. 

Layden's hands have been tied until now. Too many New Yorkers want his head when they should be going after the ownership. I think the current criticism will allow Layden to make more sensible moves toward starting over.


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