# Who is the Bulls future starting center?



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

It seems like we will have Kirk-Ben-Luol-Tyrus as our 1-4...and its assumed that our center will also come internally. So who will our starting center be when Ben Wallace is expired?


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## Smez86 (Jun 29, 2006)

By the time Ben leaves, Noah will be a backup 4, there will be someone new at the 5, and Gray will be a backup backup center.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

My vote for Noah isn't so much an indication that I'm utterly convinced that he can play center as it is than I'm utterly convinced that Gray will never be good enough to start in the NBA.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

my guess is that the guy Noah is traded for in a season will be the bulls starting center.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I'm of the belief that Joakim Noah has the potential to become a pretty good all-round center. 

I know most people feel like he'll never be able to contribute offensively, but I just don't think that's a fair assumption. Maybe because we've had problems with big men developing as quickly as we wanted them... but many players (See: Luol Deng, Michael Redd for extreme examples) have shown that you can add an offensive weapon or two in your first few years in the league... growth doesn't stop after college. I think Noah's above-average handle is indicative of a decent level of coordination and he seems like a hard worker... all he needs to do is add one or two "go-to" post moves to at least create a place for himself on the floor offensively. 

So I like Joakim Noah at the 5 going forward. I think Aaron Gray will hang around the league for a bit, which is good for a 2nd round pick.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

Then there's also the fact that Ben Wallace's expiring contract should garner some interest around the league.
Though that's an ownership and money issue really..

I don't think it'll be either of those two guys though. Noah will be the third bigman in the rotation, and Gray the fourth or fifth. (and then there's Nocioni too, if he gets kept, at the forward spots)


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

different_13 said:


> Then there's also the fact that Ben Wallace's expiring contract should garner some interest around the league.
> Though that's an ownership and money issue really..
> 
> I don't think it'll be either of those two guys though. Noah will be the third bigman in the rotation, and Gray the fourth or fifth. (and then there's Nocioni too, if he gets kept, at the forward spots)


the thing about that is there really is a dearth of centers around the league that could be traded for wallace's contract in 2 years ....there are like 3- guys eddy yao d howard and shaq if he is still playing and whom i strongly doubt bulls ownership would trade for at that point.

at 229 with narrow shoulders i dont think noah will ever gain the needed weight to be a fulltime nba center without suffering the injuries very thin centers with big minutes seem to suffer (marcus camby)


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## Mr.Montross (Sep 24, 2005)

Jake Voskuhl


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

Good point (Grinch). It's gonna be difficult to fill that center spot, in my opinion. 
I stand by Noah only being the third bigman in the rotation, and Gray being 4th or 5th. 
But as you pointed out, there's a good chance Wallace won't get you the pieces you need (and maybe the ownership doesn't wanna take on another big contract after extending Gordon/Deng etc).

If Noah ever becomes as good as Camby (which I doubt) you should be able to overcome the injuries, because either this year or next year will be the time that the Bulls become one of the 'locks' for the Eastern Finals (in the same way the Pistons have been for 3 or 4 years now)
Being in that position means being able to sign good veterans cheaply, so decent depth shouldn't be that hard to come by at that point.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Chris Duhon


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

different_13 said:


> Good point (Grinch). It's gonna be difficult to fill that center spot, in my opinion.
> I stand by Noah only being the third bigman in the rotation, and Gray being 4th or 5th.
> But as you pointed out, there's a good chance Wallace won't get you the pieces you need (and maybe the ownership doesn't wanna take on another big contract after extending Gordon/Deng etc).
> 
> ...


i kind if envision Noah as a David lee type with some shotblocking added on...so its really not to far from camby in my estimation(13 and 10 with a block or so in his prime)...I am of the belief Camby is a truly special shotblocker and defender but on the other side of the ball I think the comparison will be pretty good...although its not quite what the bulls need which is a quality low post scorer.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

No Aaron Gray love?

The guy is going to be a stud. 

At the predraft camp, with FIFTEEN PERCENT BODY FAT, he was able to post up some good athletic numbers. He was more athletic than LOTTERY pick Spencer Hawes. He is one of the strongest players in the NBA from day one. He has been working hard this offseason, shedding bodyweight left and right, so his athleticism and strength should be even further enhanced coming in.

The guy is wide, and tall, and strong. He can get position. He has a little hook shot that is hard for defenders to stop. 

With Noah vs. Gray, its like the new school center vs. the old school center. Aaron Gray is a throwback to the centers of the 90's. He isn't going to be the centerpiece of your franchise, but he is going to be doing what centers were supposed to do.

I'd say 10 PPG 10 RPG 1.4 BPG out of Aaron Gray, which gives us what we'll need out of a center. He gives us the strong lane clogger, that will allow Tyrus to do his work on defense as well. 

Aaron Gray is the center of the future.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> At the predraft camp, with FIFTEEN PERCENT BODY FAT, he was able to post up some good athletic numbers. He was more athletic than LOTTERY pick Spencer Hawes. He is one of the strongest players in the NBA from day one. He has been working hard this offseason, shedding bodyweight left and right, so his athleticism and strength should be even further enhanced coming in.
> 
> The guy is wide, and tall, and strong. He can get position. He has a little hook shot that is hard for defenders to stop.
> 
> ...


Obviously it's not 100% determinative but it's no accident that the guy was a second round draft pick. He has decent upside for a second rounder but I think it's a little early to project him in the .01 percentile of overachieving second rounders.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Noah should become very similar to Wallace. I am completely uncertain of Gray


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## Snake (Jun 10, 2007)

It's a little early to proclaim the 49th pick better than the 9th pick. It looks like Noah will be the future C but if Gray does develops into a better player then by all means he should start.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Noah is one of the modern day centers. Very athletic, not particularly big on weight and muscle, but still plenty of length. 

I think Noah matches up well against many of the younger centers in the NBA who also fit this mold. Howard, Amare, Al Jefferson, Okafor...Noah can handle all those guys well. 

Where things get interesting is against the old-school centers, i.e. Yao and Curry. The winner of that matchup is ultimately which team's guards can control the tempo. Noah will run circles around these guys, but he can also get outmuscled in the post. Just depends on what style is getting played, fast or slow.


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

Yi will be the Bulls' center of the future.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I said Noah, though I think his longterm future is at 4, and I think he's going to be the starter there for a decade.

So it's quite possible that someone like Gray, or someone to be found later, will be the starting 5.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Noah is one of the modern day centers. Very athletic, not particularly big on weight and muscle, but still plenty of length.
> 
> I think Noah matches up well against many of the younger centers in the NBA who also fit this mold. Howard, Amare, Al Jefferson, Okafor...Noah can handle all those guys well.
> 
> Where things get interesting is against the old-school centers, i.e. Yao and Curry. The winner of that matchup is ultimately which team's guards can control the tempo. Noah will run circles around these guys, but he can also get outmuscled in the post. Just depends on what style is getting played, fast or slow.


you do realize every1 you named weighs at least 250 lbs and have power based games...noah' listed weight is 229, physically noah at center most resmbles guys like steven hunter, chris bosh and mikki moore . ...and i'm not sure that what you want there full time.

i dont know if i would call guys with that physique the new wave of center, especially when the new wave would really seem to be a dwight howard, greg oden type , a very big muscular and athletic mixture that combines length and bulk.


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## Snake (Jun 10, 2007)

Da Grinch said:


> you do realize every1 you named weighs at least 250 lbs and have power based games...noah' listed weight is 229, physically noah at center most resmbles guys like steven hunter, chris bosh and mikki moore . ...and i'm not sure that what you want there full time.
> 
> i dont know if i would call guys with that physique the new wave of center, especially when the new wave would really seem to be a dwight howard, greg oden type , a very big muscular and athletic mixture that combines length and bulk.


What about Biedrins, Chandler and Dalembert? They're not much heavier than Noah is now and they do fine playing center. Also Noah has a low body fat% and is strong for his weight.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Tyson probably weighs 250 right now. He was 225 coming into the league, and he is A LOT thicker than he was when he entered.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Mebarak said:


> Tyson probably weighs 250 right now. He was 225 coming into the league, and he is A LOT thicker than he was when he entered.


tyson has very broad shoulders at least much broader than Noah , so he can carry more weight more easily....also at that 225 he pretty much exclusively played the 4 , as he gained weight and strength he began to play more at the 5.

also to the previous poster dalembert and biendris weights are listed at 250 and 245 respectively.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Tyson has a beard as well. Can Noah even grow a beard? Yet to be seen.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Tyson has a beard as well. Can Noah even grow a beard? Yet to be seen.


he can just glue some of that crazy hair to his face if it comes to that.


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## thunderspirit (Jun 25, 2002)

Mebarak said:


> No Aaron Gray love?
> 
> The guy is going to be a stud.


:eek8: Yikes. 

Listen, I was quite happy to get Gray in the second round, cos I think he was great value there and will turn into a serviceable backup. But he's about as likely to be a stud as any other second round pick...which is to say, not very.

If he somehow turns into Mark Blount, Samuel Dalembert, a poor man's Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Chris Kamen, or Zaza Pachulia, the Bulls got a steal.


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## DaBulls812 (Feb 21, 2005)

I dont get the thought of "not broad enough shoulders to gain enough weight" theory. 

Thats because it doesnt make *ANY* sense. Yao has the weakest looking upper body of any player over 240. He has a shorter wingspan than his height, and sunken shoulders. 

You have to remember, these players just cant go on 1g/lb of body weight protein diets, consume 3500-5000 calories a day, do %60 max reps, and gain 5 lbs of lean (unathletic) muscle mass.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

The thing about Noah, that I really like, is his ability to defend everywhere. Low post. Mid range. And on the perimeter.

We didn't have anyone who could do that against the Pistons, and Rasheed exposed that. Tyrus needs to operate closer to the basket so we can take advantage of his athleticism, shot blocking, and what should be good rebounder.

Noah can stick with the bigs that can hit the mid-range and extend to the perimeter (for bigs that can shoot out there) or for pick and rolls.

He's a versatile defender.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Da Grinch said:


> you do realize every1 you named weighs at least 250 lbs and have power based games...noah' listed weight is 229, physically noah at center most resmbles guys like steven hunter, chris bosh and mikki moore . ...and i'm not sure that what you want there full time.


I don't want Noah at center full-time yet, that's what Wallace is for. But he is only a rookie, and most guys if needed will gain 10-15 lbs at his age. Besides, like others said he's a lean 230 lbs right now and he's stronger than he looks. There aren't many guys who physically outmuscled him at the college level (and believe me, there are plenty of 250 lb big men at the college level). 



> i dont know if i would call guys with that physique the new wave of center, especially when the new wave would really seem to be a dwight howard, greg oden type , a very big muscular and athletic mixture that combines length and bulk.


Howard and Oden aren't the "new wave" of big men. They are just special players, end of story. And for us to match up with them, I'd MUCH rather use Noah who can match them athletically, then to use a bigger guy like Gray who will get outsprinted down the court all game. Fact is, speed gets used in today's NBA far more than strength gets used. So a speedier corps of big men like we have should be at a bigger advantage.


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## fuzznuts (May 23, 2006)

Mebarak said:


> So who will our starting center be when Ben Wallace is expired?


the quote brought me chills...

i work at the hospital, and whenever someones "expires" it means they die.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Didn't Horford guards Centers at Florida. I'm not sure how any could feel that Noah could guard guys like Amare well.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Didn't Horford guards Centers at Florida. I'm not sure how any could feel that Noah could guard guys like Amare well.


Why not? He's just as long, has comparable athletic ability, plays his arse off defensively, and gives up 20 pounds at most (which isn't that much when you're talking about NBA; if this were the NFL I'd be more concerned). 

Besides, NOBODY will shut down dominant big men like Amare or Howard or Oden anyways. Those are first-class post scorers that are hard for anybody to stop. But if you ask how Noah would fare against Amare for instance, my answer would be, about as well as anyone else.

Amare is a strong guy, but he's no Shaq. In case people forget, Noah is an excellent athlete and can match Amare's quickness. How many times a game do you think Amare would score by strength, then? Maybe a couple, IMO, but it's not like Amare is allowed to just bowl him over everytime (that would be an offensive foul).


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> tyson has very broad shoulders at least much broader than Noah , so he can carry more weight more easily....also at that 225 he pretty much exclusively played the 4 , as he gained weight and strength he began to play more at the 5.
> 
> also to the previous poster dalembert and biendris weights are listed at 250 and 245 respectively.


Adding 20 pounds over the course of a few season doesn't seem that difficult to me whether a player has broad shoulders or not. I mean how much weight do you think the average front court player adds in his first two to three seasons? I'd guess something over 10 pounds for sure.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

DaBulls812 said:


> I dont get the thought of "not broad enough shoulders to gain enough weight" theory.
> 
> Thats because it doesnt make *ANY* sense. Yao has the weakest looking upper body of any player over 240. He has a shorter wingspan than his height, and sunken shoulders.
> 
> You have to remember, these players just cant go on 1g/lb of body weight protein diets, consume 3500-5000 calories a day, do %60 max reps, and gain 5 lbs of lean (unathletic) muscle mass.


if it were really that easy every center would look like shaq

we all live in our own bodies whereas shaq can carry 320+ very easily a guy like tyson chandler cant because their bodies are built differently .

shawn bradley did all the calorie shakes and protein diets and never got above 250.

most players when they put on more weight than their frame can handle eaither get injury prone or lose their athleticism neither of which is ideal for a good career for noah.

as for Yao his just built very differently than most nba players , his legs are just enormous naturally although i am sure he did augment that with hard work.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Why not? He's just as long, has comparable athletic ability, plays his arse off defensively, and gives up 20 pounds at most (which isn't that much when you're talking about NBA; if this were the NFL I'd be more concerned).
> 
> Besides, NOBODY will shut down dominant big men like Amare or Howard or Oden anyways. Those are first-class post scorers that are hard for anybody to stop. But if you ask how Noah would fare against Amare for instance, my answer would be, about as well as anyone else.
> 
> Amare is a strong guy, but he's no Shaq. In case people forget, Noah is an excellent athlete and can match Amare's quickness. How many times a game do you think Amare would score by strength, then? Maybe a couple, IMO, but it's not like Amare is allowed to just bowl him over everytime (that would be an offensive foul).


there really is a big difference in overall athletic ability betweeen Noah and stoudamire , its not really comparable anymore than you could compare tyus and noah , there are the freaks , and there are the very good , Noah is not in the freak category guys like tyrus and amare are.

and amare once scored something like 37 points agame if it wasn't that number it was far over 30 a game to be sure in a playoff series vs. tim duncan who is every bit the athlete Noah is and just as long if not longer...Amare can find a way he isn't just an athlete, he has an actual game.

but in reality amare is more of a 4/5 tweener anyway which are in vogue in the nba but at least half the nba starting centers are not.

in the central there is bogut and big Z nazr and maybe J. Oneal the south east has Shaq okafor, Howard pauchulia and haywood in the atlantic curry , dalembert perkins collins/magliore and bargnani.

these are the starting centers in the east .

how many are below 250?

how many aren't at least 6'11?

how many can you really say cant outmuscle Noah near the hoop who was not really the center at even florida , its already been mentioned that Horford actually did that job...and he isn't seen as a legit nba center either, much more a power forward.

the avg nba center isn't 6'11 250 the avg. nba center is bigger than that , and just as long as Noah if not longer , can run and jump well and very strong.

Physically i look at Noah and i dont see a guy who is built to battle with these guys ...all of these guys when they were noah's age were at least 245 already i think only 1 wasn't (dalembert)

so it really does matter how you are built and at this point its hard to say Noah is a future nba center , an when teams go small and put a 4 at center then in those situations i would consider Noah , but in reality with noah tyrus and wallace , it looks much more like some1 is going to be traded for a real center who is really capable of starters minutes.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> but in reality with noah tyrus and wallace , it looks much more like some1 is going to be traded for a real center who is really capable of starters minutes.


unfortunately, there would appear, at least at this time, no quality centers on the horizon (and worth trading for) that might fill the "real center" definintion. to carry this discussion further, seems to me reasonable candidates should be brought to light; otherwise it's a rather pointless discussion because of the state of the bulls and viewing the rosters of the rest of the league.

for the immediate future, wallace, noah and gray will be tested. i think they're going to surprise.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

BULLHITTER said:


> unfortunately, there would appear, at least at this time, no quality centers on the horizon (and worth trading for) that might fill the "real center" definintion. to carry this discussion further, seems to me reasonable candidates should be brought to light; otherwise it's a rather pointless discussion because of the state of the bulls and viewing the rosters of the rest of the league.
> 
> for the immediate future, wallace, noah and gray will be tested. i think they're going to surprise.


i think for right now the bulls are fine with wallace but in a couple of years they are going to have to look in a different place and when that happens most likely they are going to have to package a young talent and wallace's deal to get some1 .

remember this is a thread about what happens 2 years from now.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

Noah, unless Gray translates his play from Summer League to the NBA. :biggrin:


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

LaMarcus Aldridge. Er no, wait.....wrong thread


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

Vintage said:


> The thing about Noah, that I really like, is his ability to defend everywhere. Low post. Mid range. And on the perimeter.
> ...
> He's a versatile defender.


Yeah this is why I'm leaning towards Noah too.
His athletic ability translates to the way the Bulls play defense.

In a couple years I don't think the strength factor will be an issue.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> remember this is a thread about what happens 2 years from now.


yes, and i'll reiterate; what centers can be reasonably expected to become available and obtainable AND can supplant what's expected to be on the roster at that time?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Why not? He's just as long, has comparable athletic ability, plays his arse off defensively, and gives up 20 pounds at most (which isn't that much when you're talking about NBA; if this were the NFL I'd be more concerned).


He's an average athlete (40-something out of 80), no advantage on length, didn't take the bigger guy on his college team and is giving up pounds.

So, it's great that people *think* he can guard Centers, but there is little evidence.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> He's an average athlete (40-something out of 80), no advantage on length, didn't take the bigger guy on his college team and is giving up pounds.
> 
> So, it's great that people *think* he can guard Centers, but there is little evidence.


yes compared to DJ Strawberry or Dominic James he's an average athlete.
But glance at the hieghts of players that placed above him and you'll notice there's only one guy above Noah that's at least 6'10"...Jason Smith.

Yup that means below Noah are Oden, Hawes, and Gray.

And for perspective Tyrus was in the 20's (pretty amazing but he is 6'8") and LMA was in the 60's (a guy that many wouldn't mind being our future center).

I think Florida's depth allowed them to share duties against big men.
It wasn't Horford alone that played against Oden. 
Florida rotated Horford, then Noah, then Richard, that eventually wore down Oden. 
It's not like Noah has been playing small forward and power forward exclusively.
He's been playing in the paint with Horford and mixing it up against the best college big men.

Let's see Marcus Camby, defensive player of the year and a guy Paxson inquired about, is 6'11" and 235. I'd say Camby gives up wieght every matchup he sees.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Aaron Gray was ranked #3 for the Orlando Summer League for rookies on NBA.com, and #2 for the Rocky Mountain Revue (thats higher than Al Horford).

Aaron Gray > Al Horford

so far...


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

RoRo said:


> yes compared to DJ Strawberry or Dominic James he's an average athlete.
> But glance at the hieghts of players that placed above him and you'll notice there's only one guy above Noah that's at least 6'10"...Jason Smith.
> 
> Yup that means below Noah are Oden, Hawes, and Gray.
> ...



What he said.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

BULLHITTER said:


> yes, and i'll reiterate; what centers can be reasonably expected to become available and obtainable AND can supplant what's expected to be on the roster at that time?


well since I expect Wallace to be in decline and gray to be whatever he is going to be there really isn't all that much to beat out , just a guy who can play in skiles' system either on offense or defense hopefully both

2 years is along time from now in nba terms , last summer would you have thought Mikki moore would be a viable option at center and that a team would choose him easily over a guy like jamaal magliore who was not too far in the past an all star. so its asking for an opinion thats most likely going to be wrong but i'll take a stab at it, people decline and some emerge.

how about magliore , pryzbilla, brad miller , brendan haywood, nazr mohammed kwame brown, troy murphy , shelden williams , etan thomas, memo okur, d. diop, erick dampier , hilton armstrong, chris mihm , chris kaman, mikki moore , biendris , dalembert , kendrick perkins jason collins, randolph morris robert swift, johan petro and darko millicic , for starters 

i would say out this group kwame, darko murphy, jason collins, shelden williams and randolph morris are the best bets.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> He's an average athlete (40-something out of 80), no advantage on length, didn't take the bigger guy on his college team and is giving up pounds.
> 
> So, it's great that people *think* he can guard Centers, but there is little evidence.


So you're denying that Noah, as a center, would be one of the fastest at his position in the league? I'm not sure how anyone could watch this guy at Florida and not acknowledge that he is very fast for a 7-footer. 

He doesn't have an advantage on length, but he also doesn't have a disadvantage. He measured out 7-feet in shoes, in case people forgot (with the caveat that his reach is a bit short). 

My whole point here is that he'll run circles around 90% of centers in the NBA, and that will far outweigh any size he gives up - which isn't all that much anyways! 

Who cares if he didn't guard centers at Flordia, fact is they had 2 other studs there (Horford and Richards) who were better at bodying up on guys. So because they do something better, means Noah is not capable? Let's not forget either, that we are talking LONG-TERM center here. I maintain my stance that Noah is our center for when Ben Wallace leaves, not for next year or even the year after.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> how about magliore , pryzbilla, brad miller , brendan haywood, nazr mohammed kwame brown, troy murphy , shelden williams , etan thomas, memo okur, d. diop, erick dampier , hilton armstrong, chris mihm , chris kaman, mikki moore , biendris , dalembert , kendrick perkins jason collins, randolph morris robert swift, johan petro and darko millicic , for starters
> 
> i would say out this group kwame, darko murphy, jason collins, shelden williams and randolph morris are the best bets.


from that group i can't say we as fans should be particularly encouraged by any of those as prospective bulls. further, should the current triumverate fail beyond a reasonable doubt, i can't say that any of those guys would be huge (or championship caliber) upgrades. as well, i don't see the employers of biedrens or kaman outright trading them; i'm not sure when the kaman/biedrens contracts are up, but i wouldn't be surprised if gray and noah aren't the equals of the abovementioed group in terms of talent and productivity. 

so i suppose my position is that the future starting center is likely betwixt noah and gray.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

fwiw, the latest ChicagoSports interview has Noah at 6'11" and 232 lbs. 
So he's already up 9 lbs since the combine wiegh in of 223 lbs.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/noah_interview_070724.html



> Noah didn’t get a chance to take the court during Chicago’s summer league action due to a minor shoulder injury, but he isn’t about to take a break from his workouts. The 6-11, 232-pound forward/center has been a fixture at the Berto Center since his return from Orlando’s Pepsi Pro Summer League, working diligently with the Bulls staff on his rehab and prepping for his first NBA season.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

Da Grinch said:


> how about magliore , pryzbilla, brad miller , brendan haywood, nazr mohammed kwame brown, troy murphy , shelden williams , etan thomas, memo okur, d. diop, erick dampier , hilton armstrong, chris mihm , chris kaman, mikki moore , biendris , dalembert , kendrick perkins jason collins, randolph morris robert swift, johan petro and darko millicic , for starters


I'm with *BULLHITTER!* in saying that I'm pretty sure Noah will be at least the caliber of most of the above players in the next two years in terms of over-all production. If the guy can defend the paint, pull down rebounds, and give us some offense, then he'll be just fine as a center. If the Bull were looking for the heaviest guy, they'd have extended Sweetney.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I'm not saying the guys has to be all world , lord knows bill cartwright and luc longley weren't , but you have to be able to give something that helps the team in its overall scheme.

guarding your position well is a start. which is something both cartwright and longley could do , they had the size and defensive ability to do that .

to win a title you have to go through not just good teams but different types of teams ...a team like the mavs were taken out by the warriors because they were ill prepared for the type of game the warriors brought for example.

more to point the bulls point of view the east may go through cleveland , maybe you think a 230 lbs Noah can defend Big Z better than the avg. center , but that beleif is based on faith since Noah really wasn't a primary defender of centers in college and hasn't defended anything close to that since college due to his surgery.

to win a title in 2 years a team might have to go through the knicks with curry , the raps with bargnani and the magic with howard , 3 completely different types of Centers or even a piston team with a power forwartd in the 5 spot in wallace or webber or amir johnson. and of course an aging but still 7'3 illgastaus forget about whoever is on the western conf. team

I would see a series in which noah is forced to the primary defender on a real center with scoring ability to be a major problem until I see evidence to the contrary about his defense on centers which is up to now very an insufficient amount.

and bear in mind I dont think noah cant play but fans are putting abilites on him no one really has a right to because there is very little or no proof that he is capable and bodywise he certainly significantly behind where the avg. center is , even the thinner ones.

quickness is nice but there is a reason most teams dont go small at center even though there is a real dearth of talent in the 5 spot , non scorers become scorers against people physically inferior to them and its hard to see how noah wouldn't be in the physically inferior category at least for a few years possibly his whole career....at center.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Wynn said:


> I'm with *BULLHITTER!* in saying that I'm pretty sure Noah will be at least the caliber of most of the above players in the next two years in terms of over-all production. If the guy can defend the paint, pull down rebounds, and give us some offense, then he'll be just fine as a center. If the Bull were looking for the heaviest guy, they'd have extended Sweetney.


there are reasons teams dont just put out their best post players regardless of postion unless a guy is really capable of defending both spots...usually it doesn't work. 

also the bulls are full of off the ball defenders who can swoop in and block shots helping out , it seems obvious to me that has be augmented by guys who are good on the ball defenders which they have had to off set them over the years, its hard to see how Noah on this team fills a need which is why most fans thought Pax was going to go for Hawes instead of him there were even mocks that had pax going for small forwards instead of Noah because the need for what Noah brings is so small , conventional wisdon says Pax took the best player on the board(and I do think Joakim was the best player available) to deal him later .


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

Noah never played center in college? 
Where's that proof?

All three of Florida's big guys were pretty interchangeable, as seen in the Ohio State game.
All three are listed as F-C's as well.

Is there some minute-by-position/productivity chart out there that I missed?
If there was something like Noah only played 0-10% of his minutes at center.
Or of the minutes he played at center, his productivity was terrible, etc...

Right now it seems people are willing to throw out the notion of Noah as a center simply because some said "Horford did it"...


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## Mr.Montross (Sep 24, 2005)

Honestly, is this a concern?

Let Bulls play it season by season.

That is enough of a concern.

And petition the major Chicago Newspapers to create a forum comparable to the ones that the Cavs, Blazers and Nets have.

Do you enjoy being outdone by a lame duck franchise in New Jersey offering their fans a better forum to express themselves than Bulls fans?

Or aren't the Bulls important enough in the Chicago scheme of things?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

RoRo said:


> Noah never played center in college?
> Where's that proof?
> 
> All three of Florida's big guys were pretty interchangeable, as seen in the Ohio State game.
> ...


there is also the small fact that most nba power forwards were college centers.

if noah were 7'1 270 like gray would be 1 thing but i think its more than fair to ask that a guy 6'11 229 (basically the same size as jared jeffries) has to prove he is a nba center...or at least capable of playing it for a significant stretch.

i really dont see why that concept brings so much scrutiny.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Yeah. Noah should be a good backup center. 

With Noah as the backup center, and Noah playing backup forwards at both spot, that could work long term.

PG-Kirk Hinrich = 36 minutes
SG- Ben Gordon = 36 minutes
SF- Luol Deng = 36 minutes Andres Nocioni = 12 minutes
PF- Tyrus Thomas= 36 minutes Andres Nocioni = 12 minutes
C- Aaron Gray = 24 minutes Joakim Noah = 24 minutes

The key is going to be filling the backup guard spot in our 8 man rotation.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

The future starting center for the Bulls will be Ben Wallace -- at least for three more years, maybe more. Anyway, 3 years is forever in the NBA. Speculating what will happen four years from now is a bit insane. Think back, or go back to posts three years ago.

If the Bulls go to the Finals next season with Wallace at center do you really think the Bulls would sit him down the following year? I don't.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

McBulls said:


> The future starting center for the Bulls will be Ben Wallace -- at least for three more years, maybe more. Anyway, 3 years is forever in the NBA. Speculating what will happen four years from now is a bit insane. Think back, or go back to posts three years ago.
> 
> If the Bulls go to the Finals next season with Wallace at center do you really think the Bulls would sit him down the following year? I don't.


But with bulgering young talent like Aaron Gray and Joakim Noah, Skiles might not have a choice to not sit him.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> But with bulgering young talent like Aaron Gray and Joakim Noah, Skiles might not have a choice to not sit him.


Bulgering?


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

It might be helpful to reflect on the opinions on this board four years ago regarding the predicted biggest bust of the 2003 draft.

http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-draft-forum/40114-who-will-biggest-2003-draft-bust.html

A few folks got the right answer (Sweetney) or at least came close (Darko), but as you can see, some predicted LBJ and Wade as busts. Many predicted Bosh, Kamen and Hinrich to be busts.

My point is that it's a bit hard to predict how top 10 picks will work out. Predicting the prospects for success of second round picks is darn near impossible.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

Da Grinch said:


> there is also the small fact that most nba power forwards were college centers.
> 
> if noah were 7'1 270 like gray would be 1 thing but i think its more than fair to ask that a guy 6'11 229 (basically the same size as jared jeffries) has to prove he is a nba center...or at least capable of playing it for a significant stretch.
> 
> i really dont see why that concept brings so much scrutiny.


I'm all for letting Noah prove his worth. 
I guess i'm just being half-full.

It seems to me some of the 'facts' that people use to say Noah can't play center aren't really facts.

For one people say Horford started at center, therefor Noah didn't play center...at all...ever...that's just too rigid and too big of a leap to make. Like I've said many times, Noah has played center in college so it won't be a foreign concept to him.

Another thing is Noah may have been the starting PF, but somehow he was voted to the All-American Second team at center (Horford was third team at PF).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Gators_basketball

All that aside, I'd put his basketball IQ above all other concerns.
Center is the hardest spot to learn how to defend.

I keep harping on it, but the top two defenders at center are not the ideal body type either.
Camby is skinnier than Jared Jefferies and Wallace is shorter than everyone he defends. 
But it's their hoops IQ that makes them so good, even as they are on the downside of their physical peaks.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

McBulls said:


> The future starting center for the Bulls will be Ben Wallace -- at least for three more years, maybe more. Anyway, 3 years is forever in the NBA. Speculating what will happen four years from now is a bit insane. Think back, or go back to posts three years ago.
> 
> If the Bulls go to the Finals next season with Wallace at center do you really think the Bulls would sit him down the following year? I don't.



Absolutely. We've got Noah and hopefully he'll be good enough to be a legit starter in 3 seasons or we pick up someone else who is. But for the foreseeable future, we already have a very good starting center. This is not an issue of great concern.


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## thunderspirit (Jun 25, 2002)

King Joseus said:


> Bulgering?


Hey, if that means Aaron Gray and Joakim Noah are converting at a 64.4% clip and limiting the turnovers, I'm all for it...but how are they going to play half their games in St. Louis? :whistling:


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Absolutely. We've got Noah and hopefully he'll be good enough to be a legit starter in 3 seasons or we pick up someone else who is. But for the foreseeable future, we already have a very good starting center. This is not an issue of great concern.


I agree with you, but it's the offseason and this is the slowest part of the season in particular.
no summer league, no preseason games, so boring!

Debating about what label he played under, 1.5" of reach, 10-20 pounds, how wide his shoulders are is a bit tedious but what else is there to do 

I don't think we'll truly know if Noah can or can't play center until a few years anyways.
Being a top center requires a good understanding of the game. 
Even the most physically dominant struggle with mastering the mental aspects of the position.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Da Grinch said:


> there is also the small fact that most nba power forwards were college centers.
> 
> if noah were 7'1 270 like gray would be 1 thing but i think its more than fair to ask that a guy 6'11 229 (basically the same size as jared jeffries) has to prove he is a nba center...or at least capable of playing it for a significant stretch.
> 
> i really dont see why that concept brings so much scrutiny.


Not to beat a dead horse, but Noah is indeed 7'0 tall if he's being listed how everyone else is. Alot of folks like the magic number of 7 when it comes to NBA center height, so just want to re-emphasize.

You make some good points, Grinch, that Noah will not match up well against some opponents. That's to be expected for many players, at nearly every position, which is why you have backups who bring something else to the table. Aaron Gray (assuming he proves his worth) would appear to be a very ideal backup to Noah. He has the qualities to compensate for whatever Noah lacks, such as guarding an Ilgauskas, Curry, or Ming for long stretches. 

No matter what, I foresee Noah playing both center AND power forward throughout his career (I may have indicated that he'll play only center which I probably didn't make clear). I just really like the idea of have five skilled basketball players on the court together, as opposed to four players + one big oaf.


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## Musiq (Jul 25, 2007)

Joakim Noah is my pick.

He and Tyrus will be a good (maybe great) defensive 1-2 punch on many a night.

Not to mention the dunk-o-meter will be sick!!!


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

thunderspirit said:


> Hey, if that means Aaron Gray and Joakim Noah are converting at a 64.4% clip and limiting the turnovers, I'm all for it...but how are they going to play half their games in St. Louis? :whistling:


Will they get six points every time they score?


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