# Who will be the biggest bust?



## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

Kinda piggybacking the biggest steal thread...

Who will be the biggest bust in this rookie class?


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Gallinari (#6), Alexander (#8) and Jason Thompson (#12) are candidates imo.

Gallinari cause of the Euro transition, and I don't really know or like him. He's supposedly injury-prone too.

Alexander cause I don't really know or like him, but I don't feel he'll be the player some envisioned him to be.

Thompson cause he was picked higher than he should have been, but he's 6-11 so fair enough I guess..

I'm mainly just considering the high picks, so I'll just mention them (but I don't know too much on any of the three).


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Russell Westbrook I'm not as high on him as others were. Great athlete and defender but just an average offensive player at this point.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

bball2223 said:


> Russell Westbrook I'm not as high on him as others were. Great athlete and defender but just an average offensive player at this point.


I know going off summerleague games is taboo, but Westbrooks offensive game looked pretty fly. Nice stroke and he one of the best slashers I witnessed throughout all the summer league games. 


Biggest bust? Mmm kinda tough. 

Derrick Rose. Oh my, I can't wait to have him prove me wrong :laugh:


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## thaKEAF (Mar 8, 2004)

Beasley. I'm still not sold on him for some reason.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

:laugh: Biggest balls award goes to Porn and Keaf ....


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## mynetsforlife (Dec 27, 2006)

Porn_Player said:


> :laugh: Biggest balls award goes to Porn and Keaf ....


First hand experience?


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

mynetsforlife said:


> First hand experience?


For myself ofcourse... For Keaf I have it from a reliable source.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

^ What did dienertime tell you about Keaf?


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

:laugh:


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

I think Joe Alexander will be.


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## King George (Jun 21, 2003)

Michael Beasely


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

joe alexander, brook lopez, and anthony randolph.

russell westbrook won't be good enough to justify being picked 4th but won't be considered a bust.

beasley will be disappointing but no bust. he'll be lucky to ever make an allstar team.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

1) Lopez

2) Westbrook

3) Beasley


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Bayless...at least I hope he is


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## drexlersdad (Jun 3, 2006)

DaRizzle said:


> Bayless...at least I hope he is


aww dont be scared, everything is gonna be alright.


Derrick Rose.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Looks like the opinions are still far from unanimous on most players.


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## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

Beasley? Really?


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Biggest busts ay? This is tough.

Ill say: 

Westbrook - (Reminds me of Antonio Daniels...which isnt THAT bad...but its not that good either)

DJ Augustin - Too small, think he'll have trouble in the pros especially against bigger guards. Brevin Knight with a jump shot?

Jason Thompson - Could be good, or could suck. I still feel there were better players available.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

MB30 said:


> DJ Augustin - Too small, think he'll have trouble in the pros especially against bigger guards. Brevin Knight with a jump shot?


Brevin Knight with a jumpshot is a good player, don't you think ?


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

croco said:


> Brevin Knight with a jumpshot is a good player, don't you think ?


Hell yeah!


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## Vermillion (Mar 23, 2004)

I don't think he will be a bust, but I'm surprised nobody has said Kevin Love.

Joe Alexander for me, and I'm not completely sold on Anthony Randolph and JaVale McGee either.


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## luther (Nov 2, 2007)

NewAgeBaller said:


> Gallinari cause of the Euro transition, and *I don't really know or like him*. He's supposedly injury-prone too.
> 
> Alexander cause *I don't really know or like him, but I don't feel he'll be the player some envisioned him to be.*
> 
> ...


That post kicked ass: admitting you don't know much about a player, then using that as a reason he's a bust? Good stuff. I'l say the biggest mistake is the Clippers taking Gordon at 7 because I think he's going to amount to a low-percentage chucker who doesn't really defend well or do much else, and won't score well enough to make it worthwhile (i.e., good years being 40-43% shooting from the floor and still only getting 15-17 ppg.)


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

croco said:


> Brevin Knight with a jumpshot is a good player, don't you think ?



Depends on what your after quite high in the lotto. Brevin Knight can dish it, but he gets abused defensively. I still feel there were better options for the Bobcats at the time (Bayless, Lopez). Perhaps bust isnt the right word for what I mean, but I feel the Cats will regret this pick.

Speaking of the 'Cats - Alexis Ajinca will be a bust. Is he Johan Petro's long lost twin?

JaVale McGee will bust also IMO.


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## luther (Nov 2, 2007)

MB30 said:


> Speaking of the 'Cats - Alexis Ajinca will be a bust.


I wouldn't have drafted him. Really impressive workout player, athletic, but not a basketball player.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

Kevin Love is going to be one of those guys you love to have on your team, unless its the team that drafted him. Sorta like Tyson Chandler...we love him down here in New Orleans but that's because we didn't waste a top pick on him.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

luther said:


> That post kicked ass: admitting you don't know much about a player, then using that as a reason he's a bust? Good stuff.


Relax, I never said they are busts but for now the players I mentioned are towards the top of my OPINION-BASED list.

Obviously if I don't know enough about say Gallinari, because I havn't seen how he (for example) scored at will in his league overseas, then all I have to go off is draft analysis, what I saw from him in Summer league and just clips here and there, and then make my own judgment off opinion and instinct.

Maybe the Rookie of the Year awards getting to your head.. :whistling:

Thats a joke..


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Geaux Tigers said:


> Kevin Love is going to be one of those guys you love to have on your team, unless its the team that drafted him. Sorta like Tyson Chandler...we love him down here in New Orleans but that's because we didn't waste a top pick on him.


Hopefully we will not be referring to Love in the future as the guy who was traded for OJ Mayo on draft night.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I think Love & Joey Dorsey are the players most likely to develop a healthy rack over the course of their careers. However, I should point out that Brooke Lopez is likely to cheat and get implants to boost her career as a lingerie model.


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## luther (Nov 2, 2007)

NewAgeBaller said:


> Relax, I never said they are busts but for now the players I mentioned are towards the top of my OPINION-BASED list.
> 
> Obviously if I don't know enough about say Gallinari, because I havn't seen how he (for example) scored at will in his league overseas, then all I have to go off is draft analysis, what I saw from him in Summer league and just clips here and there, and then make my own judgment off opinion and instinct.


I'm quite relaxed, and of course you're welcome to your opinion. It was (and is) funny that the guys you are saying are most likely busts, you--in the same sentences--admit your opinion is based on lack of info. It's funny.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

croco said:


> Hopefully we will not be referring to Love in the future as the guy who was traded for OJ Mayo on draft night.


Maybe it will be this decades Vlade for Kobe trade?


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2008)

Brook Lopez, Ryan Anderson, Chris Douglas-Roberts, Donte Greene, and Gerry McNamara.


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## luther (Nov 2, 2007)

peg182 said:


> Brook Lopez, Ryan Anderson, Chris Douglas-Roberts, Donte Greene, and Gerry McNamara.


How can a second-rounder be a bust? And how can an undrafted player two years out of college be a bust?


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

All of these are merely guesses and I'm sure some other players will not pan out, but if I had to name three players based on seeing them play it I would not be shocked if it's any of these three:

*Kevin Love, Minnesota:* He's too similar to Al Jefferson in some respects and it means Minnesota will have matchup problems with both of them on the floor. Moreover, his best position may be center but he is way undersized to play there and he doesn't have the athleticism to offset such size issues.

*D.J. Augustin, Charlotte:* It's hard for an under six-foot-tall player to be successful in the NBA, unless you have some incredible athletic gifts. Augustin doesn't have that kind of ability, and he is going to give up a lot on the defensive end. I see Travis Best-level upside at best.

*Eric Gordon, L.A. Clippers:* As said by Luther, he looks to be a chunker (he reminds of a slightly more athletic version of Jeff Malone). If he can develop a mid-range shot a la Malone, he could have a similar career. But I wonder how to evaluate him, considering he tailed off sharply at the end of his season at Indiana.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

luther said:


> I'm quite relaxed, and of course you're welcome to your opinion. It was (and is) funny that the guys you are saying are most likely busts, you--in the same sentences--admit your opinion is based on lack of info. It's funny.


When I say relax I'm just saying "hold on a second" sorta thing, just to be clear. I know you're not infuriated.. :biggrin:

And I agree, the reasons I gave wern't great and I don't know much about them, but I just feel they'll be busts, and asked this early on who I think will be the biggest busts in the draft, those are the names I put forward.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Geaux Tigers said:


> Maybe it will be this decades Vlade for Kobe trade?


I don't think so, Love will probably a lot closer to Divac in terms of abilities than Mayo to Kobe. Having said that, Love would be pretty damn lucky to become as good Vlade.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

I think Westbrook will be a bust

he is 6'3 not a true point guard
can't shoot well
and doesn't finish in traffic well

he is a good defender
but against the top SGs in the L he is far from a defensive stopper


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

mynetsforlife said:


> First hand experience?


I don't think the rumor's true about Keaf, just take a look at Jet... 

If she aint broke yet,

Yeah.

Also, Beasley = BUST


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Whats with the Beasley = Bust bandwagon thats goin on here?

You were on the either/or for Rose or Beasley 2 months ago...whats changed to make you think hes a bust, besides that hes not on your team.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

People calling Beasly a bust is laughable, there's no legit reason to think that. At least I can understand some of the things being said about Love, even if I think they are wrong. I have faith that Love will end up being a pretty good player in the league.

DJ Aug is looking like he could be a bust, though. He's in Charlotte which is already a decent enough reason to put him in there, but the fact that he's going to be the backup for the foreseeable future doesn't seem very promising to me.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

peg182 said:


> Brook Lopez, Ryan Anderson, Chris Douglas-Roberts, Donte Greene, and Gerry McNamara.


I can see Ryan Anderson being a bust, but why would you say CDR? He was a second round pick! And how dare you slander McNamara. He'll shoot a dagger into your heart!


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

fjkdsi said:


> I think Westbrook will be a bust
> 
> he is 6'3 not a true point guard
> can't shoot well
> ...


I understand where you're coming from, and I do think he could end up being a bust considering what number he was picked at. However, he'll be a great defender and he's very athletic. Plus he'll have Durant sucking up a lot of the defense, so I think he'll be a good player. Worst case though, he'll still be a rotation player in the league because of his defense. I guess that could be considered a bust for a number 3 overall.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

MB30 said:


> Whats with the Beasley = Bust bandwagon thats goin on here?
> 
> You were on the either/or for Rose or Beasley 2 months ago...whats changed to make you think hes a bust, besides that hes not on your team.


Happens every year, players suddenly become great or horrible depending on which team drafted them.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> Whats with the Beasley = Bust bandwagon thats goin on here?
> 
> You were on the either/or for Rose or Beasley 2 months ago...whats changed to make you think hes a bust, *besides that hes not on your team*.


that is the answer. I think you will see Bulls fans saying Beasley will bea bust because they got Rose (who has a way higher chance to be a bust).


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

croco said:


> Happens every year, players suddenly become great or horrible depending on which team drafted them.


I think as long as you look at it from an unbiased perspective, it's a legit reason to classify somebody as a bust. If DJ Aug had gone to Milwaukee, I'd be saying he's ready to bust out. However, since he went to Charlotte I'm much more inclined to say he's going to be a bust. Certain situations can dictate a players success.

I know you weren't really talking about it like that, I just decided to post that.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Why do you quote me then ?


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

ehmunro said:


> I think Love & Joey Dorsey are the players most likely to develop a healthy rack over the course of their careers.


dayum.


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## bluecro (Oct 13, 2006)

peg182 said:


> Brook Lopez, Ryan Anderson, Chris Douglas-Roberts, Donte Greene, and Gerry McNamara.


Someone is bitter about the Nets.....


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## Overrated (Jul 1, 2007)

Kevin Love at 5
Danilo Gallinari at 6
Joe Alexander at 8
Jason Thompson at 12
JaVale McGee at 18


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

I like Gallinari's game, and he should get some minutes on the struggling Knicks. 

I don't really see how you can make a legit case for Joe Alexander being a bust. He's extremely athletic, is a pretty good shooter, and plays great defense.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

GregOden said:


> I like Gallinari's game, and he should get some minutes on the struggling Knicks.
> 
> I don't really see how you can make a legit case for Joe Alexander being a bust. He's extremely athletic, is a pretty good shooter, and plays great defense.


He plays hard, but he isn't a great defender by any stretch of the imagination. While he has the potential to become a very good defender (like so many others), he is not right now. I also wouldn't call him a pretty good shooter, he is below average in the NBA. His work ethic and unbelievable athleticism is why he got drafted in the lottery.


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## NetsFan (Aug 9, 2005)

^
with work ethic and athleticism being the main attributes he was drafted, how can be a bust having these attributes


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

Is Joe Alexander really extremely athletic? Is that what hyperbole has come to?


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> ^
> with work ethic and athleticism being the main attributes he was drafted, how can be a bust having these attributes


Being smart/having a high bball IQ is also a huge factor.

Alexander is pretty raw, and didn't impress at all in summer league. We will see. I was never a fan of his game.


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## Aznboi812 (Nov 9, 2005)

both lopez as busts


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Geaux Tigers said:


> Is Joe Alexander really extremely athletic? Is that what hyperbole has come to?


How is he not extremely athletic ? :thinking2:


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

croco said:


> How is he not extremely athletic ? :thinking2:


he is extremely athletic compared to your average person but is he actually extremely athletic compared to nba athletes? i mean he measured out well at the combine, but even then there were several guys more athletic than him in this draft.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> he is extremely athletic compared to your average person but is he actually extremely athletic compared to nba athletes? i mean he measured out well at the combine, but even then there were several guys more athletic than him in this draft.


I'm not doubting his athleticism. That's his biggest positive right now and if he wasn't this athletic I don't think he would have been a lottery pick. I'm not basing this on the combine either as those numbers tend to be inaccurate, rather on actual games and scouting reports. Just one as an example from DX:



> Any question about just how freakishly athletic he is vertically were answered as we watched him perform a series of highlight reel caliber dunks as the day of workouts came to a close—360s, off the backboard, windmills, the Vince Carter “honey-dip“/elbow inside the rim, between the legs, taking off from a step inside the free throw line, he visibly wowed each and every one of the players on the sidelines with his antics. Just for good measure, he finished off by jogging lightly towards the basket, jumping off two feet and viciously head-butting the rim, as you can see in the photo.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

croco said:


> I'm not doubting his athleticism. That's his biggest positive right now and if he wasn't this athletic I don't think he would have been a lottery pick. I'm not basing this on the combine either as those numbers tend to be inaccurate, rather on actual games and scouting reports. Just one as an example from DX:


i just don't ever remember being blown away by his athleticism when i saw him play in games.


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## number1pick (May 24, 2007)

Don't know enough about Alexander or Gallinari to really comment on them. 

Augustin is gonna surprise people. He's never gonna be a defensive stopper, but he's a good team defender and he's surprising quick and can finish with contact. He's a good shooter from 3 and he's got a nice little pull-up game. 

Westbrook is a guy I love. He's a great defender, has great athleticism and quickness. Was getting to the rim at will in summer league. Showed an improved shot and improved mechanics, and looked very comfortable running the team and getting into the defense and making passes. 

I think Love will be a bust. He's undersized for the center position, and is shorter than Jefferson I believe. He plays the same position as Jefferson but is not athletic and undersized. That trade was vintage McHale. 

I'm not high on Gordon. Looks to be a volume shooter and he's undersized to play the 2. He's a great athlete though, but I wonder how he'll do on defense against guys like Kobe, Wade, T-Mac, etc. Looks like another Ben Gordon(kind of ironic that they have the same last name). 

Beasley just seems kind of crazy. I'd be worried about how well he'll behave himself in Miami. I know he didn't do anything at K-State but the "Little Apple" is nothing like Miami and he's had problems before in high school. As much as Riley and other Heat execs say they weren't trying to trade the pick or they weren't considering other players, they were and they obviously found something that they didn't like about Beasley. The only problems I have with him are he's undersized at the 4, his athleticism might make up for it as far as rebounding but he'll have trouble guarding the better PF's in the league, and he's not a great enough athlete to play the 3. He's not great laterally and he's a little slow. We'll see though. I don't think he'll be a bust, but I don't think he'll be a superstar either.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

number1pick said:


> Augustin is gonna surprise people. He's never gonna be a defensive stopper, but he's a good team defender and he's surprising quick and can finish with contact. He's a good shooter from 3 and he's got a nice little pull-up game.


DJ has as some similarities to Steve Nash. Not saying he's as good or will ever be that good but the strengths and weaknesses are very similar. Nash being lit up by just about anyone didn't stop him from getting the MVP a few years back. I think what DJ brings to the offense will out weigh his shortcomings on the other side of the ball similar to Nash. Once again, not saying he's as good or will ever be as good as Nash but they are similar to an extent.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

i never understood the people saying that augustin is going to be a defensive liability. being short does not make someone a defensive liability and at no point in his college career has he been one. he certainly is not going to be a game changing player on the defensive end but he's not going to be constantly lit up either. i'd expect him to be pretty much an average defensive player.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> i never understood the people saying that augustin is going to be a defensive liability. being short does not make someone a defensive liability and at no point in his college career has he been one. he certainly is not going to be a game changing player on the defensive end but he's not going to be constantly lit up either. i'd expect him to be pretty much an average defensive player.


DJ is quick enough to stay in front of plenty of 1s in the league. I can't see him nearly the liability some of his harsher critics would like to think he will be. My main concern is players shooting over him. Mario Chambers did it in both games against Texas. While DJ was made up for it by having a 20 point 9 assist rematch he still wasn't able to prevent Mario from shooting effectively in either game. Augustin still comes in as a point and not an undersized scoring guard needing to adapt. Could be huge when coming into a team with more talent than he's ever played with.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

stevemc said:


> DJ is quick enough to stay in front of plenty of 1s in the league. I can't see him nearly the liability some of his harsher critics would like to think he will be. *My main concern is players shooting over him.*


You answered your own question. D.J. Augustin likely will be a defensive liability because of his lack of size (height, weight and bulk). He's likely not going to be confused with Earl Boykins in the strength category.

Few six-foot and under players are very successful in the NBA, unless they have some freakish athleticism or tremendous scoring/offensive ability. Allen Iverson and Calvin Murphy are obviously on the high end of the spectrum. Dana Barros and Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf were outstanding long-range shooters and could be good volume scorers, if needed. Muggsy Bogues did a tremendous job handling the ball while having very high assist-to-turnover ratios and his low center of gravity and strength made him a pest on defense. Michael Adams was a hired gun, but he could score in bunches and run all day.

Augustin simply doesn't have those kind of abilities. He's more on the level of guys like Travis Best and Jameer Nelson.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

There is only so far a team can go with a midget at the point. To many ways to isolate players in the playoffs.

Seriously, what does Charlotte do vs. Miami if they move Wade to the point with a SG next to him? This is what happens down the stretch in playoff games. It is what has slowed down PHX (not Nash's size). When you have to change your entire defense to compensate for one player, it hurts.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

MemphisX said:


> There is only so far a team can go with a midget at the point. To many ways to isolate players in the playoffs.
> 
> Seriously, what does Charlotte do vs. Miami if they move Wade to the point with a SG next to him? This is what happens down the stretch in playoff games. It is what has slowed down PHX (not Nash's size). When you have to change your entire defense to compensate for one player, it hurts.


Exactly. That's even assuming D.J. Augustin will even be a starter in the NBA.

Then to compound matters, Augustin doesn't have some unusually special offensive game or aspect to compensate for such defensive shortcomings. Players like Calvin Murphy, Allen Iverson, Dana Barros, Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, Michael Adams and Muggsy Bogues are in a different bag in what they brought to that end of the floor.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Najee said:


> You answered your own question. D.J. Augustin likely will be a defensive liability because of his lack of size (height, weight and bulk). He's likely not going to be confused with Earl Boykins in the strength category.



Wasn't a question. He's only half the liability every assumes he'll be. He can stay in front of plenty of guards and force them to pull up for a shot. Which in the NBA isn't a bad thing since half the starting points in the league are that inconsistent shooting from the outside.



> Exactly. That's even assuming D.J. Augustin will even be a starter in the NBA.
> 
> Then to compound matters, Augustin doesn't have some unusually special offensive game or aspect to compensate for such defensive shortcomings. Players like Calvin Murphy, Allen Iverson, Dana Barros, Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, Michael Adams and Muggsy Bogues are in a different bag in what they brought to that end of the floor.[/FONT]


Can we compare him to other 6' point guards and not combo guards? None of the names you've mentioned (outside of Mike Adams and Bogues) were as much as a true point guard as DJ coming into the league which negates the point your trying to make. He brings the lost art of Point Guard play to the table unlike all the project points drafted year in and year out. Plenty of combo guards make the translation to playing point but many more remain tweeners never quiet the distributor you'd like to have running your offense. 

I don't see DJ as an all-star but I do see him like a better shooting Jameer Nelson. I think he controls the tempo of the game better than Nelson does, he might have a quicker 1st step too. I'm ignoring the Tinsley comparison since DJ was also an academic All-American which is another thing other guards don't bring to the table either.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

stevemc said:


> Wasn't a question. He's only half the liability every assumes he'll be. He can stay in front of plenty of guards and force them to pull up for a shot. Which in the NBA isn't a bad thing since half the starting points in the league are that inconsistent shooting from the outside.


The issue isn't just staying in front of them, but also keeping players from elevating over the top, keep from getting posted up and faring against shooting guards when teams want to exploit a mismatch -- all of which are part of playing defense. 

The D.J. Augustin I saw in Texas wasn't an exceptional defender and he's going to face bigger, stronger and more experienced players in the NBA. He's going to have to get much better at that end of the floor or he can be a liability.



stevemc said:


> Can we compare him to other 6' point guards and not combo guards? None of the names you've mentioned (outside of Mike Adams and Bogues) were as much as a true point guard as DJ coming into the league which negates the point your trying to make.


Actually, it doesn't negate anything. Very few players six-feet and under succeed in the NBA, and the ones who have any success usually have some abnormally strong trait that allows them to stay on the court. Augustin doesn't have that kind of off-the-charts ability or athleticsm, so you have to compare him to players more in his ilk (Jameer Nelson, Travis Best).

If anything, you made my argument stronger by throwing out Allen Iverson, Calvin Murphy, Dana Barros, Michael Adams (more of a shooting guard gunner) and Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. I'm sure you can name a few six-foot and under point guards in recent NBA history (since the NBA merger), but how many of them were more than marginal? Mark Price and Tim Hardaway -- and that's it, to my recollection. And Augustin isn't as great of a shooter as Price was and he certainly doesn't have Hardaway's off-the-dribble explosion.

Other than that, you're going with guys like Nelson, Best, T.J. Ford and Brevin Knight as the best models. Augustin is bigger than Muggsy Bogues and Earl Boykins, but he doesn't have their strength and both guys are at least as quick as him. Bogues was at least a presence in the passing lanes. 



stevemc said:


> I don't see DJ as an all-star but I do see him like a better shooting Jameer Nelson. I think he controls the tempo of the game better than Nelson does, he might have a quicker 1st step too.


That seems to be what you're missing: Players with Augustin's and Nelson's profiles aren't the type of players a team should pick with a lottery selection. Especially a team like Charlotte, which already has a young point in tow (Raymond Felton). Milwaukee drafting Ford as a lottery pick in 2003 was a mistake, IMO, and he's now on his third team (not to mention he has major health concerns).

If Augustin had Iverson's or Hardaway's ability and upside, that's one thing. But players like Augustin should be late first-rounders because of the history of success with six-foot and under point guards. Time will reveal what kind of player Augustin will be, but right now he doesn't look like a lottery selection to me.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Najee said:


> The issue isn't just staying in front of them, but also keeping players from elevating over the top, keep from getting posted up and faring against shooting guards when teams want to exploit a mismatch -- all of which are part of playing defense.
> 
> The D.J. Augustin I saw in Texas wasn't an exceptional defender and he's going to face bigger, stronger and more experienced players in the NBA. He's going to have to get much better at that end of the floor or he can be a liability.


there is a huge difference in being an exceptional defender and being a defensive liability. augustin isn't going to be either one.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Najee said:


> That seems to be what you're missing: Players with Augustin's and Nelson's profiles aren't the type of players a team should pick with a lottery selection. Especially a team like Charlotte, which already has a young point in tow (Raymond Felton). Milwaukee drafting Ford as a lottery pick in 2003 was a mistake, IMO, and he's now on his third team (not to mention he has major health concerns).
> 
> If Augustin had Iverson's or Hardaway's ability and upside, that's one thing. But players like Augustin should be late first-rounders because of the history of success with six-foot and under point guards. Time will reveal what kind of player Augustin will be, but right now he doesn't look like a lottery selection to me.


this isn't correct at all. ford was correctly chosen in the lottery that year. he definitely is one of the top 13 players from his draft even with his injury problems.

as for augustin, you can say because he's a 6 foot pg that he doesn't deserve to be a lottery pick but that just isn't the case. if he's one of the 14 best prospects in the draft, he should be pick in the lottery. it's as simple as that. there weren't 14 better players in this draft than augustin so that makes him rightfully a lottery pick regardless of whatever bias you have against small pgs.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

rocketeer said:


> there is a huge difference in being an exceptional defender and being a defensive liability. augustin isn't going to be either one.


Given the history of small point guards, the odds of D.J. Augustin being a defensive liability are higher. Augustin wasn't an exceptional defender in college and he's going to be playing bigger, better, more experienced players.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

rocketeer said:


> this isn't correct at all. ford was correctly chosen in the lottery that year. he definitely is one of the top 13 players from his draft even with his injury problems.


T.J. Ford is an average NBA player who is already on his third team going into his fifth season (not including the one season he missed). Moreover, we're not talking about a player coming out of college with a huge upside and he already had a severe injury with his neck while at Texas.

The odds of Ford being an average player was evident then, even without the neck injuries. A small point guard without any special or unique skill is only going to go so far in the NBA. The fate of other players in his draft class is fairly irrelevant to the conversation.



rocketeer said:


> as for augustin, you can say because he's a 6 foot pg that he doesn't deserve to be a lottery pick but that just isn't the case. if he's one of the 14 best prospects in the draft, he should be pick in the lottery. it's as simple as that.


READING IS FUNDAMENTAL. It's apparent there is a pattern with your posts (namely, defending players from or playing in the state of Texas - see your ridiculous rationalizations of Ron Artest). A small point guard type with no overwhelming skills historically have had limited upside in the NBA; that's different from a player like Allen Iverson or Tim Hardaway, small point guard-types who were lottery level picks because they displayed unusually exceptional skills. 

A player with an obvious size disadvantage has to have some uncommon skill or athleticism to compensate for the difference; that's true for any position. Iverson, Charles Barkley, Adrian Dantley, etc., are some of the greatest examples -- if these guys had typical or average talent in addition to their lack of size, they would not have had the careers they had. 

That's the case with Augustin, from what I have seen over the past two years. I haven't seen a talent level that compensates for his lack of size (height, bulk). The odds are against him being more than a marginal or average player.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Najee said:


> T.J. Ford is an average NBA player who is already on his third team going into his fifth season (not including the one season he missed). Moreover, we're not talking about a player coming out of college with a huge upside and he already had a severe injury with his neck while at Texas.
> 
> The odds of Ford being an average player was evident then, even without the neck injuries. A small point guard without any special or unique skill is only going to go so far in the NBA. The fate of other players in his draft class is fairly irrelevant to the conversation.


a lottery pick when ford was drafted was a top 13 pick. if ford is a top 13 player out of his draft class, he was rightfully a lottery pick. period.



> READING IS FUNDAMENTAL. It's apparent there is a pattern with your posts (namely, defending players from or playing in the state of Texas - see your ridiculous rationalizations of Ron Artest). A small point guard type with no overwhelming skills historically have had limited upside in the NBA; that's different from a player like Allen Iverson or Tim Hardaway, small point guard-types who were lottery level picks because they displayed unusually exceptional skills.
> 
> A player with an obvious size disadvantage has to have some uncommon skill or athleticism to compensate for the difference; that's true for any position. Iverson, Charles Barkley, Adrian Dantley, etc., are some of the greatest examples -- if these guys had typical or average talent in addition to their lack of size, they would not have had the careers they had.
> 
> That's the case with Augustin, from what I have seen over the past two years. I haven't seen a talent level that compensates for his lack of size (height, bulk). The odds are against him being more than a marginal or average player.


my thoughts on ron artest have nothing to do with him being traded to the rockets. i felt the same way before the move happened.

as for augustin, him going to texas allowed me to see him play a lot of games. that is definitely true. i still stand by him easily being a top 14 pick in this draft. whether that means he'll just be an average player or not, that's all it takes for him to be worthy of a lottery selection. i'm not here saying that augustin is going to be a superstar player. i feel like he will most likely end up being an average starting pg(so something like a top 15 or top 20 pg in the league). that is worthy of being a lottery pick in this draft.

you can't just decide that oh if this guy is a certain height then the highest he can be drafted is in the late first round because it just doesn't work like that. you say that the fate of other players in the draft class is irrelevant(when talking about ford), but really the value of a draft pick is all relative to how the other players in the draft play. whether augustin is an average player or not, all that matters in terms of him being drafted in the lottery is that he's a top 14 player out of his draft class.


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## Basketballjesus (May 30, 2007)

*Javelle McGee *


McGee wasn't even that good over at Neveda, so why would he be any good in the NBA. Some players won't be bust, but just solid pro's, which is cool, I bet McGee will go his entire 4 yr NBA career and never score more than 12 points in a single game. True McGee is long, but he gets pushed around by guards!


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Najee said:


> T.J. Ford is an average NBA player who is already on his third team going into his fifth season (not including the one season he missed). Moreover, we're not talking about a player coming out of college with a huge upside and he already had a severe injury with his neck while at Texas.
> 
> The odds of Ford being an average player was evident then, even without the neck injuries. A small point guard without any special or unique skill is only going to go so far in the NBA. The fate of other players in his draft class is fairly irrelevant to the conversation.
> 
> ...


Actually, Iverson has gave props to Ford for being as quick as him after a head to head match up earlier in TJ's career... but he doesn't have any "exceptional skills" in your book. 

You also refuse to take the ability to play point guard and distribute the ball as a skill making your arguments flawed in my eyes. You have to give credit for a player knowing how to play the position he was drafted to play unlike so many other guards in the league. It seems overly bias to overlook that aspect of DJ's game instead of harping on the same subject as any ill informed internet NBA draft hack has over watching game film. DJ is also a whole lot quicker than you're giving him credit for but it doesn't matter since he's not 6'4" and leading his team in shots attempted with no assists. This goes back to the whole give and take, coaches will take a real point guard to give up a possible liability of having players shoot over him. If it was players completely blowing by him it would be another set of issues. We see quick smaller players succeed on the defensive side of the ball by being able to draw charges and force players into double teams.

Personally, I think the comparison of Wade being guarded by DJ idiotic since over half the guards in the league can't guard Wade in the 1st place. DJ could stay in front of him as well as the next guy who ends up fouling him as Wade crashes into the defense. Doesn't anyone see the other side of this argument? Wade having to chase a guard like DJ isn't an ideal defensive matchup either. It might work from time to time but that'd just leave some sub par defender guarding GWallace or JRichardson.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Also, it's obvious MJ and Coach Brown are done with the Raymond Felton project and were looking for someone to actually run the point. This kinda proves my point about PG play being valued over a 3-4 more inches of height in some coaching circles. Larry must be tired of having a sub par offense over having a ok at best defense.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

Rose 

Beasley? cmon now.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

ElMarroAfamado said:


> Rose
> 
> Beasley? cmon now.


You should take your own advice. Come on now.......


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## luther (Nov 2, 2007)

stevemc said:


> This kinda proves my point about PG play being valued over a 3-4 more inches of height in some coaching circles.


It may be noteworthy that Larry himself was an undersized point guard (5-9) who was ignored by the NBA before having a fine ABA career, and then when he coached one of his best early PGs was Mack Calvin--a 6-0 PG. I don't think Larry Brown is terribly concerned about an inch here and there, as long as the player (regardless of position) is doing things on the court the way Brown wants him to: moving the ball selflessly, being in position, taking opportunities when they are there.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

Not to be Captain Obvious here, but what makes a player a "bust"? Is it their overall quality, or their value vs their draft position?

To take an example from my favorite team: Martell Webster would be a decent value if he had been picked in the 20s. As the #6 pick, he was a disaster. In this draft class, Love won't be the worst player - but there is a real good chance he will never justify being a top 5 pick.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

LOL! Anyone who picked Rose to bust wanna change that projection? Or are you sticking by it?


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## Finchstatic (Dec 24, 2004)

deandre jordan. j/k he's a project like bynum

gallinari. where's all the hype bout this guy.

how is hibbert doing?

gordon a disappointment by far. all he does is chuck up 3pters but he hustles on D.
but its his explosiveness that the clippers drafter him for

Joe alexander. LR mbah moute looking like he's the lottery pick

Robin Lopez?
Marreese Speights?
Ajinca ?
Hickson?

Courtney lee and serge ibaka.

update me on these guys. i think they are underperforming or not given decent playing time


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