# Steph's No Kidd Anymore



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/37476.htm

_
IT WILL HAVE a big-game feel, a rock-'em, sock'em Saturday night at a sold-out Garden. Vince Carter plays the World's Most Famous Arena for the first time in his new role as Air Jersey. But tomorrow's Knicks-Nets showdown will be decided by the marquee point-guard showdown between Stephon Marbury and Jason Kidd. Isiah Thomas has called New York a "guards' town" — and tomorrow the region becomes point-guard capital of the world. 

With Marbury amidst of his career year, the Coney Island Kid is on the verge of flying into the stratosphere occupied by the Nets' demigod. They will scoff at the comparisons over in the Swamp. Across the Hudson, they still look at Marbury as a loser, Kidd a champion. But if you were a GM, whom would you rather build your team around at point guard: Marbury, age 27, or Kidd, 32 in March and coming back from microfracture knee surgery. Kidd's basketball IQ is higher than Marbury's and always will be. Kidd sees the floor better, sees two passes down the road. 

Marbury's physical gifts now are clearly superior to Kidd's. You don't stop Marbury from getting into the paint. Marbury has always been the better outside shooter, and now he's blending other qualities such as his explosiveness to the hoop. That's why the Knicks are 16-13 and the class of the Atlantic Division, with even better days lying ahead. Marbury's numbers are wonderful, a 20.2 scoring average on efficient 45.5 percent shooting. He's averaging 8.6 assists and gotten to the line for 169 free-throw attempts, 74 more than Crawford. 


The Knicks start their new year tomorrow. And they ring it in with a new Marbury, who knows where he wants to go. _


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

kidd has been struggling. No way Kidd can keep steph in front of him, or do anything special at all except a alley oop or two on our crappy defense.

i think we'll win pretty handily. the nets cant keep up with us. they dont have the firepower.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

In regards to Kidd, he has only been back for a couple weeks from knee surgery. If Marbury can't out play him, the Knicks are in trouble.

In regards to the Nets not having enough fire power, VC and RJ are plenty of fire power.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

yeah, it shows from your 80 point game yesterday, 84 the previous game, and 90 in OT the game before that.

lots of firepower


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> yeah, it shows from your 80 point game yesterday, 84 the previous game, and 90 in OT the game before that.
> 
> lots of firepower


A lot of the Nets players are playing together for the first time. Things are not going to be smooth off of the start. With that said, the options are still there.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The Nets offense looks awful. They need more. The Knicks should be able to score on them quite easily, considering their offense is really gelling out there in recent weeks.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Can't say I've seen a lot of Nets games but I catch a few mins here and there. What I remember about the end of the Pistons game were a few 3 point attempts from RJ. That's not exactly playing to their strength.

They may gel and rise fast but it show ain't happened yet.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> 
> They may gel and rise fast but it show ain't happened yet.


Kidd has been back two weeks, Carter three games, and Krstic has started equally as much. I think the shakiness of the Nets offense is understandable.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

The Nets last three games have been against the Pistons, Bulls, and Pacers.

Man, they must feel stupid for only scoring 90 against the Pistons.

The Knicks play a faster paced game. It means more shots. That's how they got 119-111 against the Magic, and 100-87 against the T'Wolves. The Knicks only managed 91 points against Charlotte, so I'm not sure why you're so confident in the Knick offense.

The Nets have two players who can score off Kidd or create for themselves. Jefferson, and Carter.

The Knicks have Marbury, and a bunch of players that need Marbury to create for them.

The game will come down to how bad Jason Collins sucks. With such an inept offensive center, Freeway's defensive incompetency is neutralized.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> The game will come down to how bad Jason Collins sucks. With such an inept offensive center, Freeway's defensive incompetency is neutralized.


The Nets have actually moved Collins to PF. Krstic has been starting at C.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!The Knicks play a faster paced game. It means more shots. That's how they got 119-111 against the Magic, and 100-87 against the T'Wolves. The Knicks only managed 91 points against Charlotte, so I'm not sure why you're so confident in the Knick offense.
> 
> The Nets have two players who can score off Kidd or create for themselves. Jefferson, and Carter.
> 
> ...


Why does everything end up with a comparison with he Knicks?

And why do spend so much time on this board, it's clear the Knicks are you least favorite team. I don't see why you don't just lube it up on the Nets board.

Now, to your points. Is it not just the least bit ironic that "half-court Marbury" plays a "quicker pace" than a trio of Kidd, Wince and RJ? If you took the time to consider my post my point was that I found it ironic that to close out tight games the approach was for .333% Jefferson to bomb from the arc rather than some high flying antics between Kidd and the gazelles. Don't tell me you were glad NJ got Vince so that they could have RJ take more bombs?

And while not at the level of RJ and Carter I'd say Houston, Crawford, TT, and to a lesser extent Sweeteny, can create for themselves.

But again, a comparison to the Knicks was not my point, my point was the conceptually poor offensive execution by the Nets. Playing to ones weakest suit rarely wins games.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Don't tell me you were glad NJ got Vince so that they could have RJ take more bombs?


Vince was on the bench at the end of the Detroit game, and shooting a three against Detroit is higher percentage than driving into a block. Detroit denied Jefferson the ball and forced him to the perimeter. Did you watch the game?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Don't tell me you were glad NJ got Vince so that they could have RJ take more bombs?


Vince was on the bench at the end of the Detroit game, and shooting a three against Detroit is higher percentage than driving into a block. Detroit denied Jefferson the ball and forced him to the perimeter. Did you watch the game?

And LMAO if you think TT can create for himself. The only thing he creates for himself are turnovers. The only shots he takes are open jumpers.

Houston normally creates for himself, but I thought you said not to expect much of him since he's coming off the injury. Or was it your twin who said he was done as a player, I don't remember.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Houston normally creates for himself, but I thought you said not to expect much of him since he's coming off the injury. Or was it your twin who said he was done as a player, I don't remember.


At this point I don't either. But why don't you take this opportunity to tell us, just how good a player will Houston get back to?



> And LMAO if you think TT can create for himself. The only thing he creates for himself are turnovers. The only shots he takes are open jumpers.


Funny. The fact of the matter is he's the 2nd best on the team at playing with his back to the basket (behind Sweets) and the best at slashing to the rim from the high blocks (which he does a lot and if Marbury ever took the ball to the side of the court he'd hit him for a lot more conversions off that move). But you'd know that if you watched this team.




> Vince was on the bench at the end of the Detroit game, and shooting a three against Detroit is higher percentage than driving into a block. Detroit denied Jefferson the ball and forced him to the perimeter. Did you watch the game?


As I alluded to, I saw only snippets because my true attention was on the Knicks/Orlando game. Sorry we have different favorites.

But thanks for reminding me about Wince's 6 minute game stopping leg cramp in front of the scorers table (what a drama queen). And how futile the Nets were at getting anyone an open look. (So much for Kidd being great this year.)

Here's the last 2 mins of the 4th plus overtime:


2:08
DET
Chauncey Billups made 2nd of 2 Free Throws

1:50
NJ
*Richard Jefferson missed Jump Shot*

1:47
DET
Defensive Rebound by Ben Wallace

1:43
DET
Chauncey Billups made 3-pt. Jump Shot

1:42
NJ
Full Timeout

1:31
NJ
*Richard Jefferson missed Layup, Blocked by Ben Wallace*

1:26
NJ
Offensive Rebound by Richard Jefferson

1:21
NJ
*Richard Jefferson missed Driving Dunk, Blocked by Rasheed Wallace*

1:19
NJ
*Jason Kidd missed 3-pt. Jump Shot*

1:19
NJ
Defensive Rebound by Jason Collins

1:16
DET
Personal foul on Chauncey Billups

1:16
NJ
Jason Collins made 1st of 2 Free Throws

1:16
NJ
Jason Collins made 2nd of 2 Free Throws

1:08
DET
Richard Hamilton made Driving Layup

43.0
NJ
*Jason Kidd missed 3-pt. Jump Shot*

39.0
DET
Defensive Rebound by Chauncey Billups

16.0
DET
Rasheed Wallace missed Turnaround Jump Shot

17.0
DET
Offensive Rebound by

16.0
DET
Personal foul on Rasheed Wallace

16.0
NJ
Nenad Krstic made 1st of 2 Free Throws

16.0
NJ
Nenad Krstic missed 2nd of 2 Free Throws

16.0
DET
Defensive Rebound by Ben Wallace

16.0
DET
Full Timeout

2.0
DET
Rasheed Wallace missed 3-pt. Jump Shot

0.0
End of period.

OT

TIME
TEAM
PLAY

5:00
NJ
Jumpball received by Nenad Krstic

12:00
Start of period

4:49
NJ
*Richard Jefferson made Jump Shot*, Golly

4:26
DET
Chauncey Billups missed 3-pt. Jump Shot

4:23
NJ
Defensive Rebound by Nenad Krstic

4:10
NJ
*Jason Kidd missed 3-pt. Jump Shot*

4:06
DET
Defensive Rebound by Ben Wallace

3:52
DET
Richard Hamilton made Jump Shot

3:33
NJ
*Vince Carter missed Jump Shot*, Vince was done after the drama show so this must have been Jefferson

3:30
DET
Defensive Rebound by Tayshaun Prince

3:19
DET
Rasheed Wallace made Jump Shot, Assist Chauncey Billups

3:00
NJ
Lost ball turnover on Nenad Krstic

2:46
DET
Rasheed Wallace missed Jump Shot

2:40
NJ
Defensive Rebound by Richard Jefferson

2:22
NJ
*Richard Jefferson missed Jump Shot, Blocked by Chauncey Billups*, Chauncy?

2:05
DET
Defensive Rebound by Richard Hamilton

2:04
DET
Ben Wallace made Slam Dunk, Assist Chauncey Billups

2:04
NJ
Full Timeout

2:02
NJ
*Lost ball turnover on Jason Kidd, Stolen by Richard Hamilton*

1:43
NJ
Shooting foul on Nenad Krstic

1:43
DET
Rasheed Wallace made 1st of 2 Free Throws

1:43
DET
Rasheed Wallace made 2nd of 2 Free Throws

1:26
NJ
Lost ball turnover on Nenad Krstic, Stolen by Chauncey Billups

1:01
NJ
*Shooting foul on Richard Jefferson*

1:01
DET
Richard Hamilton missed 1st of 2 Free Throws

1:01
DET
Richard Hamilton made 2nd of 2 Free Throws

1:01
NJ
Full Timeout

57.0
DET
Shooting foul on Tayshaun Prince

57.0
NJ
*Richard Jefferson made 1st of 2 Free Throws*

57.0
NJ
*Richard Jefferson missed 2nd of 2 Free Throws*

57.0
DET
Defensive Rebound by Tayshaun Prince

43.0
NJ
Personal foul on Travis Best

43.0
DET
Chauncey Billups made 1st of 2 Free Throws

43.0
DET
Chauncey Billups made 2nd of 2 Free Throws

43.0
NJ
30-second Timeout

39.0
NJ
*Jason Collins missed Layup, Blocked by Ben Wallace*

35.0
NJ
*Richard Jefferson missed Jump Shot*

32.0
DET
Defensive Rebound by Ben Wallace

29.0
NJ
Personal foul on Travis Best

29.0
DET
Richard Hamilton made 1st of 2 Free Throws

29.0
DET
Richard Hamilton made 2nd of 2 Free Throws

29.0
NJ
Full Timeout

23.0
NJ
*Rodney Buford missed Jump Shot*

0.0
End of period.

That ending must have just eaten you up inside. Especially knowing the Knicks were trouncing Orlando all the while.

Not like there's anything wrong being a Nets fan, (or wherever Shandon and Eisley are now), I just wish you would devote a little more of your time to giving the love on their board than the hate you give here. Though I guess every board needs a resident troll.


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

Smack talking with the Nets, JYD saying he has no love for the Nets, I LOVE IT!!!


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Notice that the last three inside shots for Jersey were all blocked? With Vince out, defenders were swarming RJ, so all of his shots were contested. He was 1-4 and was able to draw a shooting foul.

As I said before, Detroit was playing their zone, and blocked every attempt inside. What choice did the Nets have but to shoot jumpers? Kidd's two turnovers were both slipups, but please don't act like the Knicks take care of the ball any better. Marbury has more than his share of careless turnovers.


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## BigC (Sep 28, 2004)

The Nets may play like crap against other teams but they are going to try to bring it today. This game is personal. I hope TT goes off on Jefferson. Marbury has to be on point because the Nets talk thrash. I know the Nets will probably run a zone and double Marbury for the majority of the game. Its important that we hit our outside shots.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*RJ and Carter..*

are great at creating their own shots? Good ones? Please...creating a good shot on one's own means having a great handle and moves. Carter does not possess a great handle, nor is he very quick anymore so he relies on jumping over people with his inconsistent jumper. When he is on, he is tough, but not as tough as JC when he is on. I am not a fan of RJ's...he is soft and w/o Kidd his game suffers bigtime.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

marbury has his fair share of turnovers, but who led the league last year in turnovers? Jason Kidd.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

*Re: RJ and Carter..*



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> 
> I am not a fan of RJ's...he is soft and w/o Kidd his game suffers bigtime.


That's always a sure sign that one hasn't watched the Nets all that much. Jefferson was incredible when Kidd was out.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> marbury has his fair share of turnovers, but who led the league last year in turnovers? Jason Kidd.


Kidd and Marbury had the same assist to TO ratio, while Kidd averaged more assists per game.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

> are great at creating their own shots? Good ones? Please...creating a good shot on one's own means having a great handle and moves. Carter does not possess a great handle, nor is he very quick anymore so he relies on jumping over people with his inconsistent jumper. When he is on, he is tough, but not as tough as JC when he is on. I am not a fan of RJ's...he is soft and w/o Kidd his game suffers bigtime.


You really dont know nothing about Vince. Vince doesnt have a great handle, are you kidding me? Inconsistent jumper, Vince is one of the best catch and shoot players in the league, his shooting is very underrated, not as tough as JC huh, arent you overrating JC a bit. RJ is soft huh, nuff said


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

you sure about that?

as a knick Steph averaged 9.3 assists per game. Jason Kidd last season 9.2. 

both had 3.2 turnovers a game.

and vinces ball handling isnt on the level of other elite guards. Vince has no left.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> you sure about that?
> 
> as a knick Steph averaged 9.3 assists per game. Jason Kidd last season 9.2.
> ...


Unless NBA.com is wrong, i'm sure about it.

APG: Kidd-9.2, Marbury-8.9

http://www.nba.com/statistics/2003/...rs/LeagueLeadersAPGQuery.html?topic=0&stat=15

TOPG: Kidd- 3.19, Marbury-3.07

http://www.nba.com/statistics/2003/...rs/LeagueLeadersTPGQuery.html?topic=0&stat=29

A/TOPG: Kidd-2.89, Marbury-2.89

http://www.nba.com/statistics/2003/...rs/LeagueLeadersATRQuery.html?topic=0&stat=17


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

nba.com includes his phoenix games with Amare out. i said as a knick right

http://basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=MARBUST01


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> nba.com includes his phoenix games with Amare out. i said as a knick right
> 
> http://basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=MARBUST01


You never said "as a Knick".

And you cannot discount his time with Pheonix because Amare was out. That would be like me saying, "KMart and Jefferson missed some games, so we will take those out."


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> you sure about that?
> 
> *as a knick* Steph averaged 9.3 assists per game. Jason Kidd last season 9.2.
> ...


i did, oh i did. i didnt watch steph, or really give a damn about marbury as a sun, so im just basing it on the stats he put up with new york.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Notice that the last three inside shots for Jersey were all blocked? With Vince out, defenders were swarming RJ, so all of his shots were contested. He was 1-4 and was able to draw a shooting foul.
> 
> As I said before, Detroit was playing their zone, and blocked every attempt inside. What choice did the Nets have but to shoot jumpers? Kidd's two turnovers were both slipups, but please don't act like the Knicks take care of the ball any better. Marbury has more than his share of careless turnovers.


Rashidi one of the reasons we butt horns so much is I consider myself a fairly centrist Knicks fan. I don't adore anyone in particular on the team, I don't make unrealistic predictions, and I don't bandwagon on and off players and coaches after each loss or spurt. But still you snipe my posts like I'm some high flying homer that needs a dose of reality.

This began when I said the Nets may gel and rise fast but they sure haven't yet. Comments like that and that "the Knicks could stand to overachieve like the Suns and Sonics" brings out your hammer. Why? Am I not allowed to assess teams without comparison to the Knicks? Is everything less than a salute to other teams a diss? If you want to see a diss just look at your post layden history here.

Oh how you must long for the 10-18 Knicks that were Layden's when he got canned. No wonder you show so much passion for the Nets, they too are at 10-18.

Now the point is that while Kidd, Carter, and RJ look good on paper the team still has a lot of problems. Not the least of which is a lack of defensive integrity. No doubt Kidd is the leader of that team but K-mart led the defensive end and perhaps more than anyone else had his effect on the crowd. They also possess a paper thin front court, and a backcourt who's explosive potential is matched only by it's explosive health concerns. So I'm sorry if I'm not swooning at the acquisition of Carter like so many eager all-star ballot stuffers. Wherever the Nets hope to be going with this guy they are not there yet, and that is full circle to where we started.

Now about the Pistons game. I have sympathy and respect for teams who take the defending champs into OT like the Nets did. That said, their late game execution was a bust. You talk about how RJ is so great at creating for himself but if you read the play by play he could do NOTHING of merit. Ditto Kidd. You give me a "LMAO" about TT being able to create, but the fact is when Marbury and TT play as bad as Kidd and RJ did we see TT benched and Norris move Marbury to the SG. That's how bad the Nets played the end of that game. I think Norris/JYD would have had a better chance than Kidd/RJ. Fortunately the Knicks have a bench.

And that is the problem for the Nets, a weak bench, an empty frontcourt (I like Krstic, but he's nothing yet) and a team heavily dependent upon strong leadership from their (at this moment in time) former franchise player (Kidd) where little leadership of the kind they are used to is present.

Last year the Nets had a few flaws I felt would keep them from the ECF until resolved: a) uncertainty of Kidd's health b) lack of consistent perimeter scoring (Though I liked Kittles defense and open court play for them) c) backup PG d) Backup SG e) backup forwards f) backup center g) starting center.

So start there and remove Kittles and K-mart, then add in guys like Vince, Injured Mercer, Best and Krstic, and tell me how far you think they've come in resolving their shortcomings. And keep in mind, this _is_ a discussion that can, if your are willing, be had without reference to the Knicks.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Carter a great catch and shoot guy?*

Lets see...the best years he had he shot less than 42 % from 3 and the rest were just 38+ or less. ...and 45% total fg% is not great considering the number of dunks he got. Good scorer but not great shooter. Talk to me after the season. RJ has been great without Kidd? FG% is down 6 1/2 % and 3pt % is down as well. Considering he is playing 5 minutes more per game, his numbers have not really gone up...except turnovers and errant missiles launched. Typical delusional Nets fan. And BTW.....I do sometimes watch the Nets when I need a chuckle or two. RJ is indeed soft. How many times does he attempt some twisting, underhand shot with english so as to avoid the contact a dunk attempt would bring. I hardly watch the Nets and I have seen plenty. I know soft...we have TT.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^Obviously you are one of those that believes more in what you seen on paper that what you see in play. I'll let Carter's play tonite do the talking. The game is already shaping up to be an interesting one. Talkin about a typical delusional fan, you knicks need to take the log out of your eyes.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> 
> 
> i did, oh i did. i didnt watch steph, or really give a damn about marbury as a sun, so im just basing it on the stats he put up with new york.


I was refering to the original point about Kidd leading the league in TO's, which I replied to.

Either way, Marbury has always been a better stat player then Kidd. Kidd's biggest stat has been improving teams in the W column.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

*Re: Carter a great catch and shoot guy?*



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> Lets see...the best years he had he shot less than 42 % from 3 and the rest were just 38+ or less. ...and 45% total fg% is not great considering the number of dunks he got. Good scorer but not great shooter. Talk to me after the season. RJ has been great without Kidd? FG% is down 6 1/2 % and 3pt % is down as well. Considering he is playing 5 minutes more per game, his numbers have not really gone up...except turnovers and errant missiles launched. Typical delusional Nets fan. And BTW.....I do sometimes watch the Nets when I need a chuckle or two. RJ is indeed soft. How many times does he attempt some twisting, underhand shot with english so as to avoid the contact a dunk attempt would bring. I hardly watch the Nets and I have seen plenty. I know soft...we have TT.


You have to be stretching quite a bit to knock RJ's season. 

Is his FG% down? Yeah, but he is taking a ton more shots so that is natural. 

Is his FG% bad? Not at all. Compare it to other top scores who take a lot of shots.

*Jefferson: .434* 
*Iverson: .416*
*McGrady: .419* 
*Bryant: .400* 

It sounds more like you just don't like RJ and/or the Nets.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*You are right..*

I don't care for RJ..or ther Nets, but surely you are not saying that RJ is on the same level as AI, Tmac, or Kobe? Wow...I never said his season was a bad one. In fact, I would take him over our SF in a heartbeat, primarily because of his defense but he is still soft and he does not create his own shot very well. That is all I said. Carter is also soft. he plays like he is made of china and maybe he should because he seems to break easily. Regardless of the game tonight, check back at the end of the season. One game is too small of a sample.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

*Re: You are right..*



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> I don't care for RJ..or ther Nets, but surely you are not saying that RJ is on the same level as AI, Tmac, or Kobe? Wow...I never said his season was a bad one. In fact, I would take him over our SF in a heartbeat, primarily because of his defense but he is still soft and he does not create his own shot very well. That is all I said. Carter is also soft. he plays like he is made of china and maybe he should because he seems to break easily. Regardless of the game tonight, check back at the end of the season. One game is too small of a sample.


RJ doesn't create his own shot? How the heck to think he was getting his 23 ppg this season before Kidd came back?

Rodney Buford?

And RJ soft? The guy has missed like five games his entire career.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

*Re: Re: You are right..*



> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> RJ doesn't create his own shot? How the heck to think he was getting his 23 ppg this season before Kidd came back?
> ...


Don't even bother with this kid. It's the typical 2002 Nets hater. Just ignore him.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Don't even bother with this kid. It's the typical 2002 Nets hater. Just ignore him


This coming from the delusionist that thinks Vince Carter is better than Paul Pierce.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Wow this knick fans are crazier than I thought


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Hey, we aren't crazy. We are the best sports fans in the world. Ask any New Yorker.


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