# Ray Allen for Kirk Hinrich? CBSSports.com



## JonH818 (Aug 31, 2006)

http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/19891570?source=rss_blogs_NBA



> Rumblings about Ray Allen being on his way out of Boston are accurate, but only if the Celtics can get back a player who’d crack the top eight in their rotation. One scenario that has been discussed would have Allen going to Chicago for Kirk Hinrich and another piece – John Salmons? – to satisfy the salary requirements. If it came to fruition, what an intriguing swap it would be for teams that waged such a thrilling postseason battle only eight months ago. Since Allen’s $19.7 million contract expires after the season, acquiring him would leave Chicago flush with cap space for a 2010 free-agent binge centered around Chicago native Dwyane Wade and an additional superstar.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Gotta do it over a McGrady, no doubt. We need more offense. 

With Brown here, that would also help. 

Add to the fact we would not have to worry about Salmons for 2010. 

Helps the Celtics this year as well.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

If we could move Hinrich _and_ Salmons and get back Allen it would be a phenomenal trade for us... That would be amazing.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

I more or less proposed this in another thread a day or two ago as a C's fan, but I like it for both teams. I'd want the C's getting back an additional asset in the trade(Thomas? it's not like you'll re-sign him) but I like the general idea for both teams, as it gives the C's a legit three-guard rotation for the first time in years and clears and additional 15 million off your cap this summer. Allen's slowed down significantly, so splitting him into two guards who can score in low double-digits and increasing Rondo's(yes, I know Chicago hates him, but bear with me) role in the offense is a viable option.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Hinrich, Salmons _and_ Tyrus Thomas for Ray Allen's expiring? Seems like an awful lot to give up.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I dont see why the Celtics would rather have Hinrich and Salmons around a couple more years than to just hold on to Allens expiring contract till the end of this season. 

Do they really think they can win a championship with Kirk Hinrich and Salmons as your starting 2 and 3, I dont think so. Paul Pierce might be done for the season, even if KG comes back this team's window is closed if they make this trade. 

But good for the Bulls, GREAT for the Bulls. More capspace is great.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

thebizkit69u said:


> I dont see why the Celtics would rather have Hinrich and Salmons around a couple more years than to just hold on to Allens expiring contract till the end of this season.
> 
> Do they really think they can win a championship with Kirk Hinrich and Salmons as your starting 2 and 3, I dont think so. Paul Pierce might be done for the season, even if KG comes back this team's window is closed if they make this trade.
> 
> But good for the Bulls, GREAT for the Bulls. More capspace is great.


Pierce isn't done for the season, he's day-to-day, the foot wound up not being broken. Salmons would likely be the starting two-guard with Hinrich(a huge upgrade over House or TA) backing up both the 1 and 2. Hinrich and Salmons' contracts aren't really too much of an issue for Boston because we aren't set up to have cap space for a few years, so letting Allen expire doesn't do anything positive for us. The downgrade from Allen to Salmons is more than made up for by adding a legitimate third guard in Hinrich, and if we're lucky Thomas does something productive for the C's. 



Dornado said:


> Hinrich, Salmons and Tyrus Thomas for Ray Allen's expiring? Seems like an awful lot to give up.


Not really. Chicago wants to stay competitive this year, but they'd absolutely love to rid themselves of Hinrich and Salmons' contracts this summer. Tyrus Thomas isn't really in Chicago's future plans, which is why they've been floating him as a sweetener in any Hinrich deal, I'm just asking that they continue to do so. Ray Allen is still a productive player, so Chicago's able to remain competitive this year(which will keep their fans and core players happy) while still clearing massive amounts of cap space for the summer. Makes perfect sense.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Pierce isn't done for the season, he's day-to-day, the foot wound up not being broken. Salmons would likely be the starting two-guard with Hinrich(a huge upgrade over House or TA) backing up both the 1 and 2. Hinrich and Salmons' contracts aren't really too much of an issue for Boston because we aren't set up to have cap space for a few years, so letting Allen expire doesn't do anything positive for us. The downgrade from Allen to Salmons is more than made up for by adding a legitimate third guard in Hinrich, and if we're lucky Thomas does something productive for the C's.


Well PP not being gone all season really changes things, yeah I can see this as a good deal for the Celtic's, they will take a hit offensively and in clutch situations but their defense will be improved. 

Dont think it puts them back in the championship picture but its better than doing nothing I guess.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I would do any variation of this trade (anything not involving Rose or Noah), but it sure doesn't sound like Danny Ainge is up for it.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I think Danny is looking for something better, still plenty of time to get things done. I just dont see how Hinrich and Salmons puts them back in the championship picture, i just dont.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

thebizkit69u said:


> I think Danny is looking for something better, still plenty of time to get things done. I just dont see how Hinrich and Salmons puts them back in the championship picture, i just dont.


It's not a home run, but it makes the Celtics better on defense(where they've slipped badly since 2008) and shouldn't hurt them on offense if Hinrich and Salmons can hit open jumpshots at a steady rate. Unless Ainge wants to swing for the fences and put together a package for Iguodala, Hinrich/Salmons/Thomas is one of the better trades for the Celtics.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Bogg said:


> Not really. Chicago wants to stay competitive this year, but they'd absolutely love to rid themselves of Hinrich and Salmons' contracts this summer. Tyrus Thomas isn't really in Chicago's future plans, which is why they've been floating him as a sweetener in any Hinrich deal, I'm just asking that they continue to do so. Ray Allen is still a productive player, so Chicago's able to remain competitive this year(which will keep their fans and core players happy) while still clearing massive amounts of cap space for the summer. Makes perfect sense.


^this
Throwing TT in means basically nothing for us. Bcause there is almost no way we resign him. There are so many better options for us at PF via FA. And we already have a cheap backup in Gibson, not to mention JJ.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Bogg said:


> It's not a home run, but it makes the Celtics better on defense(where they've slipped badly since 2008) and shouldn't hurt them on offense if Hinrich and Salmons can hit open jumpshots at a steady rate. Unless Ainge wants to swing for the fences and put together a package for Iguodala, Hinrich/Salmons/Thomas is one of the better trades for the Celtics.


Depends if you get the current hot shooting versions of Kirk and Salmons, they are just as capable of going through long stretches of not being able to hit ANYTHING even when wide open. If I was the Celtics I would be looking for another big man, you cant continue to put all your championship hopes on Garnet being healthy.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

thebizkit69u said:


> Depends if you get the current hot shooting versions of Kirk and Salmons, they are just as capable of going through long stretches of not being able to hit ANYTHING even when wide open. If I was the Celtics I would be looking for another big man, you cant continue to put all your championship hopes on Garnet being healthy.


The issue is that we already have big money committed to KG and Sheed for two more seasons and don't really have valuable young guys to package for a Murphy/Jamison/Amare/Boozer, since Perk and Rondo clearly aren't on the table. Tyrus Thomas is probably about the best big man we're going to get unless we eat Brand's contract packaged with Iggy(which isn't feasible financially).


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

If we could do Hinrich/Salmons(/Tyrus) for Allen, we've gotta do it. Oodles of cap space for next year, and we won't fall off the planet this season after making it.

I'd hate to see Hinrich on the Celtics, but if it's there we should do it.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Gibson, Noah and Miller is not enough depth for an NBA frontcourt... the fact that Gibson can be a hack has been covered up thus far by us having another PF in Thomas to play in his place when the fouls add up. The deal would probably hurt us in the short run, unless Ray Allen has more life left in his legs than I'm giving him credit for.

We'd have plenty of money left for 2010... and if we don't get anyone good in FA, well, I don't know where that leaves us - probably overpaying a guy like Amare Stoudemire and wallowing in mediocrity for another decade.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

truebluefan said:


> Helps the Celtics this year as well.


That's why I wouldn't do it. It would make me sick to see Hinrich and Thomas playing with those scumbags. 

As for the trade from our perspective, I'd still say no. As I've said before, I don't trade good young talent, which Hinrich is, for an expiring, just HOPING that we can lure some mythical free agent class in. If the Bulls tank, which they would due to no perimiter defenders once Kirk is traded, along with no quality backup PG, they wouldn't be too desirable with a scrub for a coach and no winning since the 90s.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

This would leave the Bulls with no frontcourt depth, two of them battling plantar fasciitis, and it would force them to play Miller for 30+ minutes again. Deng would have to play spot minutes at the 4, as well. We already saw what Kaman and Camby can do to the Bulls, and they're still getting burned by teams with distinct size advantages at the 4 and 5, such as Bargnani and Bosh, Bogut, and Jamison and Haywood, regardless of record.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Bogg said:


> The issue is that we already have big money committed to KG and Sheed for two more seasons and don't really have valuable young guys to package for a Murphy/Jamison/Amare/Boozer, since Perk and Rondo clearly aren't on the table. Tyrus Thomas is probably about the best big man we're going to get unless we eat Brand's contract packaged with Iggy(which isn't feasible financially).


Well something like this would work.

3 way trade

Boston,Chicago and the Clippers

Bulls send Tyrus Thomas and Jerome James to Boston 
Send John Salmons to LA

Celtics send Ray Allen to Chicago

LA sends Marcus Camby to Celtics and Ricky Davis to Chicago

Clippers receive
Tyrus Thomas
Jerome James
Tony Allen all expiring contracts

Chicago receives
Ray Allen and Ricky Davis both expiring.

Boston receives
Marcus Camby and John Salmons. 

Not saying it makes much sense but its a possibility.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> That's why I wouldn't do it. It would make me sick to see Hinrich and Thomas playing with those scumbags.
> 
> As for the trade from our perspective, I'd still say no. As I've said before, I don't trade good young talent, which Hinrich is, for an expiring, just HOPING that we can lure some mythical free agent class in. If the Bulls tank, which they would due to no perimiter defenders once Kirk is traded, along with no quality backup PG, they wouldn't be too desirable with a scrub for a coach and no winning since the 90s.


I like Hinrich as much as anyone. But the fact is he is making 9 mil a year, playing the same position as our franchise (best) player. It doesn't make any sense to keep him. Especcially when going into the biggest FA class in the histery of the NBA. IMO anyone arguing to not trade Hinrich for expirings isn't thinking clearly. We are so close to becoming a perennial contender. All we have to do is put ourselves in the best position financially and wait about half a year and see what happens. If we traded Hinrich and Salmons there is a possibility that this team could have a starting lineup of:
PG: Rose
Sg: one of these three: Lebron/Wade/Joe Johnson/Gay
SF: Deng
PF: One of these four: Bosh/Lee/Boozer/Amare
C: Noah

Noone knows how likeley that is to occur... But someone is going to get these guys I don't see why it couldn't be us. If we could somehow manage to get Bosh and Lebron we would probably have the best team in the history of the NBA. If we could get any two of the above players we are the favorites in the NBA. If we only get one of Lebron/Bosh/Wade we are still favorites in the NBA. 
The other thing is if we hold onto Hinrich when we could have traded him for expirings and say Wade is the guy who wants to come here than what kind of role does Hinrich play next year? Backup to Wade and Rose? There will be less than 25 minutes of that role. So we are going to pay 9 mil for a guy who backs up our two best players? There is just no way it makes sense to hold onto Hinrich. The only arguement is for the rest of this season which is a terrible arguement IMO.


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

caseyrh said:


> I like Hinrich as much as anyone. But the fact is he is making 9 mil a year, playing the same position as our franchise (best) player. It doesn't make any sense to keep him. Especcially when going into the biggest FA class in the histery of the NBA. IMO anyone arguing to not trade Hinrich for expirings isn't thinking clearly. We are so close to becoming a perennial contender. All we have to do is put ourselves in the best position financially and wait about half a year and see what happens. If we traded Hinrich and Salmons there is a possibility that this team could have a starting lineup of:
> PG: Rose
> Sg: one of these three: Lebron/Wade/Joe Johnson/Gay
> SF: Deng
> ...


100% Agree.

If we can get 2 of those 8 star free agents... wow!

I'd still like to keep TT (and do NOT understand why the Bulls are so down on him... maybe they just, like me, wish we could undo that draft day trade...).

Anyways... a SG/PF combo to pair with Rose/Deng/Noah... seriously... what team with cap space has a better 3 to go with? (cue the crickets). Even if we miss out on the top 2 at each position... and end up with say Joe Johnson and Boozer...

Rose/Johnson/Deng/Boozer/Noah.... uhh.... that's got to be a top 3 or 4 team in the NBA, maybe better; and with a good 5 years in their primes....

In summation: Do it!


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Dornado said:


> Gibson, Noah and Miller is not enough depth for an NBA frontcourt... the fact that Gibson can be a hack has been covered up thus far by us having another PF in Thomas to play in his place when the fouls add up. The deal would probably hurt us in the short run, unless Ray Allen has more life left in his legs than I'm giving him credit for.
> 
> We'd have plenty of money left for 2010... and if we don't get anyone good in FA, well, I don't know where that leaves us - probably overpaying a guy like Amare Stoudemire and wallowing in mediocrity for another decade.


Well, a few responses to this. 

A) There is no short run, the Bulls have a .500 record right now, playing a top 10 point guard with no high-level scorer to pass to. Absolute best case scenario is a first round upset followed by prompt dismissal in the second round. 

B) Even if they don't trade him, Tyrus Thomas won't be back next year unless the Bulls get shut out in free agency. Re-signing Thomas kills enough of Chicago's current cap room that they won't be able to simultaneously bring in a high-level talent unless they execute a sign-and-trade in which they ship out Deng. I promise you're better off keeping Deng over Thomas. 

C) If you're worried about clearing cap room only to sign the wrong free agent and wind up mediocre.......what expectations do you have for this current core? Noah's going to require a large extension in 2011 and Rose in 2012, making this summer the best opportunity to upgrade the roster. 

D)Hinrich will turn 30 next season, and Salmons is already 30 - neither player is going to get any better than they currently are. That's fine for a veteran team, but Noah and Deng are 24 and Rose is 21. By the time the Bulls core hits their prime, Hinrich and Salmons will both be washed up, or close to it. Why hold onto them at the expense of trying to add another top young player?


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Bogg said:


> Well, a few responses to this.
> 
> A) There is no short run, the Bulls have a .500 record right now, playing a top 10 point guard with no high-level scorer to pass to. Absolute best case scenario is a first round upset followed by prompt dismissal in the second round.
> 
> ...


^this
Now I just wish more of the Bulls fans understood this.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Why not try Hinrich and Deng for Ray Allen, that way we can sign two max free agents. I think Ray Allen/John Salmons manning the wing positions would allow us to be a formidable team for the rest of this year.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

BG7 said:


> Why not try Hinrich and Deng for Ray Allen, that way we can sign two max free agents. I think Ray Allen/John Salmons manning the wing positions would allow us to be a formidable team for the rest of this year.


I like that trade from the Celtics point of view, but I can't see Chicago wanting to get rid of Deng. He actually makes sense long-term for the Bulls and his contract isn't bad in light of his production. If the Bulls wanted to lose him in a straight salary dump he'd already be gone.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

No way should Noah even come close to looking for a near max extension. Lets see what Lee gets in the off-season, Noah should make less than Lee.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Jim Ian said:


> 100% Agree.
> 
> If we can get 2 of those 8 star free agents... wow!
> 
> ...


Yeah that's the beauty of it. Even if we miss out on Wade, Bosh, and Lebron. There are still plenty of other guys out there that we could get that would make us legit contenders. And to be honest I didn't even really look at the rest of the FA class because there are a few guys I left off the list like Dirk.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

BG7 said:


> Why not try Hinrich and Deng for Ray Allen, that way we can sign two max free agents. I think Ray Allen/John Salmons manning the wing positions would allow us to be a formidable team for the rest of this year.


Because Deng is a very talented player and would be a huge part of our team going forward. Hinrich is not a big part of our team going forward which is why we should trade him.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> No way should Noah even come close to looking for a near max extension. Lets see what Lee gets in the off-season, Noah should make less than Lee.


Who said Noah will get a near max? I think he will get a contract around 10 mil per though.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> Who said Noah will get a near max? I think he will get a contract around 10 mil per though.





> Noah's going to require a large extension in 2011


I assumed near max money or something close to Dengs contract.

9-10 mil max a season makes sense.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

thebizkit69u said:


> No way should Noah even come close to looking for a near max extension. Lets see what Lee gets in the off-season, Noah should make less than Lee.


I said he'd get a large extension, not a max extension. In reference to Lee, considering that Noah plays defense and blocks shots, of which Lee does neither, Noah will likely get a contract equal to or slightly more than what Lee gets. Joakim's not going to get Bosh-type money, obviously, but he'll average at least 10 million a year. The point is that his extension is going to be large enough to put a serious dent in Chicago's payroll.


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## Merk (May 24, 2006)

Bogg said:


> Well, a few responses to this.
> 
> A) There is no short run, the Bulls have a .500 record right now, playing a top 10 point guard with no high-level scorer to pass to. Absolute best case scenario is a first round upset followed by prompt dismissal in the second round.
> 
> ...


Very well said


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Damn Hinrich already 30? He was the reason I started watching the NBA in his rookie season.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> Because Deng is a very talented player and would be a huge part of our team going forward. Hinrich is not a big part of our team going forward which is why we should trade him.


Getting rid of both of them would allow us to sign a max free agent. Allen/Salmons/Devin Brown should allow us to finish out as an above .500 team.

Then as long term pieces going into the off season we have Derrick Rose, Taj Gibson, and Joakim Noah. I think that we would be able to get Dwyane Wade/Chris Bosh both if we were to make these trades. I think you could sell Wade and Bosh that playing with Rose and Noah is better than Chalmers and Beasley in Miami. 

Getting rid of both Hinrich/Deng in the same trade would just make us ridiculous power players in 2010 free agency. Especially making a trade like the one proposed here, that would keep us as a playoff team for this season.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

BG7 said:


> Getting rid of both of them would allow us to sign a max free agent. Allen/Salmons/Devin Brown should allow us to finish out as an above .500 team.
> 
> Then as long term pieces going into the off season we have Derrick Rose, Taj Gibson, and Joakim Noah. I think that we would be able to get Dwyane Wade/Chris Bosh both if we were to make these trades. I think you could sell Wade and Bosh that playing with Rose and Noah is better than Chalmers and Beasley in Miami.
> 
> Getting rid of both Hinrich/Deng in the same trade would just make us ridiculous power players in 2010 free agency. Especially making a trade like the one proposed here, that would keep us as a playoff team for this season.


Depending on what the cap is we could potentially sign 2 max players just by moving Hinrich and Salmons. They would take about 15 mil off the books. Which would only leave us with about 23 mil in guaranteed contracts next year. So 2 max contracts plus our guaranteed salary only puts us at 56 mil. Which means we would be in the range of what the salary cap might be. But regardless I don't see the point in getting rid of a guy who will fill a major role for us. As we have all started to see on a much more frequent basis Deng can hit the 3 ball, midrange jumpshot, very good around the rim and in open court, rebound, and defend. His weakness is that he is not a very good ballhandler. But only so many guys can handle the ball and if we are going to add stars we would want a guy like Deng. Barring injury he is a perfect fit for us going forward. I would be completeley against trading him going into this offseason.
Plus these FA would be coming to the Bulls to win and play in a major market. The winning part would not look near as attractive to FA's without Deng on the squad.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

BG7 said:


> Getting rid of both of them would allow us to sign a max free agent. Allen/Salmons/Devin Brown should allow us to finish out as an above .500 team.
> 
> Then as long term pieces going into the off season we have Derrick Rose, Taj Gibson, and Joakim Noah. I think that we would be able to get Dwyane Wade/Chris Bosh both if we were to make these trades. I think you could sell Wade and Bosh that playing with Rose and Noah is better than Chalmers and Beasley in Miami.
> 
> Getting rid of both Hinrich/Deng in the same trade would just make us ridiculous power players in 2010 free agency. Especially making a trade like the one proposed here, that would keep us as a playoff team for this season.


......and if you don't get Wade/Bosh/Lebron/Johnson then what? None of those players are guaranteed to move, and if they do they aren't guaranteed to come to Chicago. It's one thing to dump guys that don't fit into your long-term plans to create cap space, but once you start dumping productive young players you're really betting the franchise on the free agent market. Substituting Deng for Salmons in the trade creates an additional 5.5 million in cap space this summer, so the question boils down to whether Deng is worth 5.5 million to the Bulls. I say yes. 

However, if the Bulls want to give Deng to the Celtics then by all means go ahead, it would make my day. I just don't see how it makes sense for Chicago.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Dornado said:


> Hinrich, Salmons _and_ Tyrus Thomas for Ray Allen's expiring? Seems like an awful lot to give up.


You're right, it is an awful lot for Boston to give up. I'd like a #1 tossed in as well. :bsmile:


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Allen is not worth a mid 1st round pick.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Allen is not worth a mid 1st round pick.


draft picks are usually very overhyped.

in last years draft 
.14 earl clark 
15. austin daye
16.james johnson
.17 jrue holiday

when a draft pick pays off its a real coup but with lets say pax's draft record i wouldn't make it a deal breaker

i think tyrus kirk and jerome james is quite fair ...or kirk and miller ...allen is a 35 year old 2 guard he is probably on his last legs whether or not we see it yet , i am sure the celts know it which is why they want to deal him while they can still get something for him and dont want to resign him.

truth is i dont feel he is worth kirk alone , how many times have we seen old players dealt while they are still effective and on their new team their effectiveness drops off the table ...i dont think allen is worth the risk as a player ...as a salary coming off the books thats another story...but then the bulls better be successful ...no ben wallaces or ron mercers this go round.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I think a lot of people make way too much out of the whole "Wade (or whomever) would have a better team in Chicago, ergo we could convince him to come here". The reality is all of these FA's can sign for an extra year with their own teams, make 30 million more and historically speaking for players its all about the money. I don't think, generally speaking, a guy like Wade is looking at Chicago's roster and pining to be there. He is more likely supporting his team and hoping Riley can land Bosh, Boozer or someone like that in the offseason, something Miami will be trying to do. Bosh reportedly loves Canada and is more than happy to stay there for a max deal that Toronto reportedly will pay. Joe Johnson turned down a 4 year 60 million dollar extension with Atlanta which means he pretty much wants a 5 year max deal, maybe we can throw that at him and get him but is he worth it? Maybe. No telling what the Knicks will do with Lee, my guess is pay him big dollars when they strike out on Lebron (who plays on his hometown team, a team that has a great record and has made major addittions to keep him happy...and again one he can make 30 million more playing with). Amare is talking opting in with Phoenix, maybe he does or maybe he gets signed to a new deal for them, or maybe he walks (I'm not crazy about him anyway). Boozer is probably the most gettable guy out there but I recall Paxson saying some very unflattering things about him in the media when Boozer screwed over his brother in Cleveland, I don't see that happening.

So, to summarize, as fans we look at more where a guy will fit, will he be better with X team or Y team. As players, they look at "where will I make the most money, which city has the best climate, nightlife etc"

Wade- Stays with Miami, will make $30mil more there, warm climate, happening night scene, committed to adding another FA (probably Boozer).

Lebron- Stays home, literally. Plays for his hometown team, can make $30mil more, team seems committed to adding pieces.

Johnson- turned down a generous offer from Atlanta who is a pretty good team. Looks pretty mercenary for a max offer might be had for one but that also might be overpaying.

Bosh- Will get a max offer from Toronto and likely take it.

Lee- Could change teams, may get a nice offer from NY if NY strikes out in FA but maybe NY overpays Johnson and/or Boozer and Lee is left hanging?

Boozer- Most available FA of all, Utah paid Milsap, they won't pay both of them, probably joins his buddy and training partner Wade in Miami.


So, really the only likely available targets are: Johnson, Boozer, and potentially Lee. Those are the guys we should look at seriously and I would rule out Boozer because of history and be leery of paying Johnson a full max deal, Lee may or may not be available and I would love to add him for someething just under the max if possible.


ACE


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> draft picks are usually very overhyped.
> 
> in last years draft
> .14 earl clark
> ...


Yeah the mid first round is a weird spot to draft in. Most teams seem to look at those slots as an opportunity to still get a high "potential" player and too early to drafta guy that projects as a role player low ceiling type guy. So most of the time you end up with really raw guys that don't pan out. If the Bulls keep the pick they should be taking the guy who seems to be the surest thing and hope to get a quality bench player on the cheap.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

ace20004u said:


> So, really the only likely available targets are: Johnson, Boozer, and potentially Lee. Those are the guys we should look at seriously and I would rule out Boozer because of history and be leery of paying Johnson a full max deal, Lee may or may not be available and I would love to add him for someething just under the max if possible.



Some additional targets you didn't mention include Rudy Gay as a restricted free agent, Al Jefferson through trade, and Iguodala through trade. Gibson, one or two first rounders, and the ability to create an eight-figure trade exception could be enough to get either of those last two players, and there are questions in regards to Memphis' willingness to match a big offer for Gay. Having the cap room to absorb other teams large contracts that no longer make sense for them is almost as valuable as the ability to sign free agents outright.


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## VCHighFly (May 7, 2004)

If the only reason the Bulls wouldn't throw TT into the deal is their big man depth this season, why not just get the Celtics to throw in Shelden Williams' one-year deal. So it would be Allen/Williams for Hinrich/Salmons/Thomas. That gives them a stop gap big rotation of Noah/Miller/Williams/Gibson for now and every bit as much cap space next season. The trade also makes Boston championship contenders by upgrading their defense significantly (Salmons is better than Allen defensively; Hinrich is better than House; Thomas is better than Big Baby) without losing much offense. Also, the luxury of having 5 bigs who can play (Garnett/Perkins/Wallace/Thomas/Davis) means that Garnett sitting out a few more games down the stretch to rest of for the playoffs makes a lot more sense. 

Then, for the Bulls next year... only 5 guys would be under contract... the oldest of which would be 24:

PG Rose (21)
SG
SF Deng (24)/Johnson (22)
PF Gibson (24)
C Noah (24)

You cannot possibly script a more appealing free agent destination for some duo of top free agents. Like a previous poster mentioned, Wade, Joe Johnson, Rugy Gay, Travis Outlaw, or Lebron would be a great fill of their wing hole. Also, Boozer, Bosh, Amare, or Lee would look great in their front court... but what about the possibility of drawing in ANOTHER veteran on the downside of his career to fill out a championship-level roster? Re-signing Ray Ray or going after the likes of Ginobili, McGrady, Mike Miller, Mehmet Okur, or Marcus Camby would not be out of the box if a couple big namers signed on the dotted line. Talk about your all-time no brainers! You have to try it if you have the chance, right?


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

ace20004u said:


> I think a lot of people make way too much out of the whole "Wade (or whomever) would have a better team in Chicago, ergo we could convince him to come here". The reality is all of these FA's can sign for an extra year with their own teams, make 30 million more and historically speaking for players its all about the money. I don't think, generally speaking, a guy like Wade is looking at Chicago's roster and pining to be there. He is more likely supporting his team and hoping Riley can land Bosh, Boozer or someone like that in the offseason, something Miami will be trying to do. Bosh reportedly loves Canada and is more than happy to stay there for a max deal that Toronto reportedly will pay. Joe Johnson turned down a 4 year 60 million dollar extension with Atlanta which means he pretty much wants a 5 year max deal, maybe we can throw that at him and get him but is he worth it? Maybe. No telling what the Knicks will do with Lee, my guess is pay him big dollars when they strike out on Lebron (who plays on his hometown team, a team that has a great record and has made major addittions to keep him happy...and again one he can make 30 million more playing with). Amare is talking opting in with Phoenix, maybe he does or maybe he gets signed to a new deal for them, or maybe he walks (I'm not crazy about him anyway). Boozer is probably the most gettable guy out there but I recall Paxson saying some very unflattering things about him in the media when Boozer screwed over his brother in Cleveland, I don't see that happening.
> 
> So, to summarize, as fans we look at more where a guy will fit, will he be better with X team or Y team. As players, they look at "where will I make the most money, which city has the best climate, nightlife etc"
> 
> ...


I don't agree. 
1.) all of these guys have already been offered big contracts extensions by their current team and have turned them down. Why turn them down if they want to stay? They already know how much they will make on the open market (16.5 mil) so it doesn't make sense as a negotiation tactic.
2.) There certainly is precednet for max type guys leaving to play on better teams and bigger markets.
3.) As far as money goes most of these guys make much more money on endorsement deals then they do in salary. So how much money is a guy like Bosh losing out on playing in Toronto where noone cares about basketball V Chicago which is a much bigger market for NBA players?
4.) I think at a certain point guys like Lebron and Wade become less concerened with money and more concerned with cementing a legacy as one of the all time great NBA players. In order to do that you have to win championships. These guys could tremendously improve their profile and be remembered as truly special players if they really start winning. I think all of these guys want that. Take a guy like Lebron, that cavs team around him is pretty bad and yet he has them in 1st place. If he was on the Bulls with our big three around him, he could win have as many rings or more than Jordan got by the end of his career. People would talk about him maybe being the greatest NBA player of all time. I gurantee that is important to him.

basically I think there are plenty of valid reasons for these guys to leave. And I am not even convinced that they will make more money by staying with their current teams as opposed to going to a major market. Winning is important to them. And they will be going somewhere why not here? But like I said before, even if we only land a guy like Joe Johnson we will still be a much improved team so we might as well go for it. And if we don't land anyone big we would be _way_ under the cap with a talented young core. Being 30 mil under the cap(if Hinrich and Salmons are off the books next year) certainly has its advantages. For one it makes it very easy to aquire a big time player via trade. Say a guy like Al Jefferson or someone along those lines whose team wants to cut salary could pretty much dump him on us and save a ton of money.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I've warmed up to the idea of David Lee. He has really developed a superb high-post game, which I never thought would happen. Just think -- everything Brad Miller can do for us on a good day, David Lee will do that basically every night.

Plus, Lee might be gettable for under the max, which makes it possible he will not re-sign in NY. (e.g., he could sign a pretty equivalent deal in Chicago compared to NY, unless NY just blows his socks off with a big offer). 

Further, Noah & Lee would give opponents fits on the boards. An all-Florida big man tandem.

The big knock of course is that Lee is a truly horrible defensive player; at least when it comes to altering shots. The guy flat-out does not contest shots. Ever. That makes it too easy for opposing bigs to have big nights. 

However, having Noah and Gibson in the rotation can help off set that. Two very good shotblockers to play help D. 

For 5 years, $55-60M, we may get a 17 ppg, 10 reb, 3-4 assist guy to play the high-post with Rose in pick and roll/pop situations. Spend the rest of our dough on upgrading the SG spot.

We could do alot worse.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Bogg said:


> Some additional targets you didn't mention include Rudy Gay as a restricted free agent, Al Jefferson through trade, and Iguodala through trade. Gibson, one or two first rounders, and the ability to create an eight-figure trade exception could be enough to get either of those last two players, and there are questions in regards to Memphis' willingness to match a big offer for Gay. Having the cap room to absorb other teams large contracts that no longer make sense for them is almost as valuable as the ability to sign free agents outright.


Thats a valid point, I didn't mention potential trade partners or Gay. I think Gay would be redundant with Deng and he may even get a Max deal, I don't (like many) see him as being that far superior to Deng to make a deal for and dump Deng. jefferson is interesting if he could be had as is Iguodala, I was just commenting elsewhere on how good Iggy would look in the backcourt next to Rose, particularly if we could land a solid front court guy like Lee to go with him. However Philly wants cap relief and they want to get rid of their big Brand contract that has 4 years left on it so I don't see a viable deal there. But your right, having cap room to absorb salary in trades can be valuable. Just remember, the other team isn't wanting to pay that salary for a reason.

ACE


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> Bosh- Will get a max offer from Toronto and likely take it.


I agree with a lot of your post especially about Wade and Boozer in Miami together and about Lebron likely re-signing, but not this part. I think the chances that Bosh stays in Toronto are very, very low. I think a haul of JJ and Bosh or Rudy and Bosh is in the mix for the Bulls if they can get rid of some of these contracts. That leaves them with a championship contending core for sure.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Bogg said:


> Some additional targets you didn't mention include Rudy Gay as a restricted free agent, Al Jefferson through trade, and Iguodala through trade. Gibson, one or two first rounders, and the ability to create an eight-figure trade exception could be enough to get either of those last two players, and there are questions in regards to Memphis' willingness to match a big offer for Gay. Having the cap room to absorb other teams large contracts that no longer make sense for them is almost as valuable as the ability to sign free agents outright.


^this and...


VCHighFly said:


> If the only reason the Bulls wouldn't throw TT into the deal is their big man depth this season, why not just get the Celtics to throw in Shelden Williams' one-year deal. So it would be Allen/Williams for Hinrich/Salmons/Thomas. That gives them a stop gap big rotation of Noah/Miller/Williams/Gibson for now and every bit as much cap space next season. The trade also makes Boston championship contenders by upgrading their defense significantly (Salmons is better than Allen defensively; Hinrich is better than House; Thomas is better than Big Baby) without losing much offense. Also, the luxury of having 5 bigs who can play (Garnett/Perkins/Wallace/Thomas/Davis) means that Garnett sitting out a few more games down the stretch to rest of for the playoffs makes a lot more sense.
> 
> Then, for the Bulls next year... only 5 guys would be under contract... the oldest of which would be 24:
> 
> ...


^ this

Man it's nice to have more guys posting on the Bulls board that I really agree with.
Maybe its just the fact that too many of our fans are emotionally connected to guys like Hinrich and TT that they can't see it from an objective view. But you guys seem to understand the direction the Bulls should go better than a lot of the Bulls fans. kudos. Maybe I will start posting in your forums from time to time. Love this website more and more every day!


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

caseyrh said:


> I don't agree.
> 1.) all of these guys have already been offered big contracts extensions by their current team and have turned them down. Why turn them down if they want to stay? They already know how much they will make on the open market (16.5 mil) so it doesn't make sense as a negotiation tactic.
> 2.) There certainly is precednet for max type guys leaving to play on better teams and bigger markets.
> 3.) As far as money goes most of these guys make much more money on endorsement deals then they do in salary. So how much money is a guy like Bosh losing out on playing in Toronto where noone cares about basketball V Chicago which is a much bigger market for NBA players?
> ...


Your points are well taken but I would address them thusly:

1.) They are already making good money THIS season, by waiting to extend until the offseason they add another season at a great pay rate. Of course that does presupposse that they play well and avoid injury etc. 

2.) Yes it has happened but not all that often

3.) I think most of the big time guys have national and even international exposure. A lot is made of playing in a bigger market like Chicago but the only real difference may be more lucrative local contracts.

4.) I could see that at a certain point but I don't think they are neccessarily looking at the Bulls as a team far superior to what they are working with. They may, I guess we will see but I think ultimately they are more motivated by making fat dollars.

There are advantages to being cap flexible. I don't know if giving a guy like Johnson a max deal is a great idea. He would be making huge money at age 34. Trades are certainly possible with capspace but I was more addressing free agency.

ACE


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

ace20004u said:


> Your points are well taken but I would address them thusly:
> 
> 1.) They are already making good money THIS season, by waiting to extend until the offseason they add another season at a great pay rate. Of course that does presupposse that they play well and avoid injury etc.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. It is pretty much all speculation anyways no way to know for sure from either side of the arguement. My feeling though is that as long as their is a _chance_ than we should prepare for it just in case.


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## VCHighFly (May 7, 2004)

caseyrh said:


> My feeling though is that as long as their is a _chance_ than we should prepare for it just in case.


And isn't that the salient point on the matter? Championship caliber teams with multiple core parts entering their prime level production are so rare in this league. If you even have a remote chance of building that foundation, you have to push all your chips in the middle to make it happen.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Oh I agree Casey, we definitley have to take a shot, we need another star on this team for sure! I just don't think our odds are nearly as good as some hope. A lot of people make it seem like a foregone conclusion that Wade or Lebron will sign here, that would be lovely but I am just saying it isn't likely. We still need to be in a position to make it happen if we should be so lucky. Of course, I'm not so sure about needing to free up enough cap to add TWO free agents since we will probably be lucky to get one although there is some merit to that line of thinking also.

ACE


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> draft picks are usually very overhyped.
> 
> in last years draft
> .14 earl clark
> ...


Still there is more value in having a mid first round pick who can develop into a good player than to take on a 35 year old player a year or two away from retiring.

Rajon Rondo
Tony Parker
Tayshaun Prince
Danny Granger
David West
Jameer Nelson
Josh Howard
Josh Smith
David Lee
Kevin 

All players drafted in the mid to late round.

Ray Allen's expiring contract alone is more valuable than Kirk Hinrich.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

From ESPN on the 20 most likeley players to get traded before the deadline:



> 3. Kirk Hinrich, G, Bulls
> The Bulls will have salary-cap space this summer, and they want more. If they can trade Hinrich and/or John Salmons for expiring contracts, they can make a pitch to both LeBron James and Chris Bosh this summer. Can you imagine a team with James, Bosh, Derrick Rose, Luol Deng and Joakim Noah?
> 
> I guarantee you Chicago exec John Paxson can, and if Bosh isn't traded before the deadline, the Bulls appear to have a chance make it happen.
> ...


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Even if they dealt Hinrich and Salmons they would not have enough cap to make a max offer at two of those guys...

ACE


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

ace20004u said:


> Even if they dealt Hinrich and Salmons they would not have enough cap to make a max offer at two of those guys...
> 
> ACE


Like I said earlier the salary cap would have to be at around 56 mil or higher for them to be able to offer 2 max contracts. Which is within reason considering the cap was about 59 mil(or close) last year. So it is within reason as it is hard to guess what the cap will be now or how much it will drop.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

There seems to be some sort of feeling that the Bulls NEED to make a run at Wade/Lebron and Bosh for this to be a successful summer. Keep in mind that Rose has the ability to be a top 10 player in the league, and they already have a good young center in Noah and a great utility man in Deng. They just need talented scorers, but not necessarily elite players, at the power forward and swingman positions. Wade/Bosh would be fantastic, but Iguodala and Jefferson probably make this roster a championship-caliber team.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

Bogg said:


> There seems to be some sort of feeling that the Bulls NEED to make a run at Wade/Lebron and Bosh for this to be a successful summer. Keep in mind that Rose has the ability to be a top 10 player in the league, and they already have a good young center in Noah and a great utility man in Deng. They just need talented scorers, but not necessarily elite players, at the power forward and swingman positions. Wade/Bosh would be fantastic, but Iguodala and Jefferson probably make this roster a championship-caliber team.


I like the Iggy idea. I've posted a trade scenario involving Hinrich + Thomas for Iggy + Jason Smith. Iguodala despite being a lesser player IMO is a better fit next to Rose than Wade/Johnson. My interest in Iggy is based on the idea that I actually like the role that Hinrich is currently playing next to Rose, and thinking the Bulls probably need to replace Hinrich with a better player who can play similar role. And Iggy fits that description. Coincidentally, he's available and his name have been involved in a couple of trade scenarios lately; The Cavs being the most aggressive suitor.

I still want to the Bulls to go really hard on pursuing Bosh in the summer. Assuming by the end of the year we have Rose, Iggy, Deng and Noah and a cap space for MAX contract, we'd be among the most powerful players in the Bosh sweepstake.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

RSP83 said:


> I like the Iggy idea. I've posted a trade scenario involving Hinrich + Thomas for Iggy + Jason Smith.


Philly's made it more or less clear that if you want Iguodala you have to take(at bare minimum) Dalembert off their hands this season, or Brand going forward, which kills Chicago's cap space. 

Iggy isn't a target this season, but an interesting theoretical involving him: If Chicago clears Hinrich and Salmons off the roster, they have enough cap room to swing a trade this that sends minor assets(Gibson+Johnson and a pick) to Philly for Iguodala, Brand(hear me out), their choice of Young or Speights, plus Jrue Holiday. Chicago could then swap Deng for Al Jefferson more or less straight up(which makes sense for both teams). That leaves Chicago trotting out a lineup of Rose, Iggy, Young, Jefferson, and Noah with Brand as the sixth man(where his 14 and 7 is actually an asset) and Holiday backing up the point. A "threes and D" swingman and an extra defensive big man to round out the playoff rotation and you've got what might be a real championship contender.


LIKE THE FIFTH EDIT: You could also not make the second trade(Deng for Jefferson) and have a very flexible lineup. The Bulls would have the option of going either big on teams with Brand and Deng/Young or fielding a quick lineup that won't get killed on the boards with Deng and Young playing together at the forward spots.


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## BullsBaller (Oct 6, 2002)

I wouldn't mind the trade mentioned from cbssports.com if it included a future 1st round pick from the C's. With all their aging players, there is no doubt they will be in the lottery or close to it in the next couple years. I am really torn here b/c I think trading Deng, as opposed to Hinrich would be better. Why?

1) Deng's contract is going up which will make the Bulls have less money this summer compared to Hinrich's whose salary is going down. Hinrichs salary helps them in free agency & Dengs doesn't.

2) With the economy the way it is, now is the time to lock players up, not 2 years ago at the peak. This is why getting rid of Deng's contract would be the best thing for the Bulls. It is the only contract that is creating a glut preventing them to run lean into 2010 free agency. This is b/c it is long term (5 years), going up in price, & was signed just before the economy started to slow down. View Dengs contract like the loan outstanding on a house purchased in 2007. It is underwater!

3) We could get a player similar to Deng in Outlaw, who has been injured all season, thus having a low market value at this time. Or we could get Rudy Gay. Last year the market set a low value for SFs with the signings of ARTEST & Ariza who signed for the MLE. 

4) I think it will be much harder to find a replacement for Hinrich than it will be for Deng i.e. Gay, Outlaw, etc..., b/c Kirk does so much more than score. Like Rose said, “Kirk is our glue guy”.

5) Hinrich has said he would prefer to stay in Chicago even knowing about the offers from two potential championship teams (LA & Boston). This loyalty makes me think he would sign for significantly less in 2.5 years than what he signed for last time. This is especially true if we were competitive for a title. We just need 1 more significant piece and were there.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> I think Danny is looking for something better, still plenty of time to get things done. I just dont see how Hinrich and Salmons puts them back in the championship picture, i just dont.


Of course Danny is waiting to check out all offers. 

Gives them more depth. 

Also Ray has had a bad year in terms of what is expected of him. That being said, having him on the Bulls would be great! Would spread the floor once again and give Rose and Allen more room to operate. 

Ray is only shooting 34% in threes, but teams still have to respect him. 

Maybe they need Kirk for his d? I dont know. I fell kinda the way you do. Dont know why they would want Salmons, but hey, thats ok with me. LOL


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

BG7 said:


> Why not try Hinrich and Deng for Ray Allen, that way we can sign two max free agents. I think Ray Allen/John Salmons manning the wing positions would allow us to be a formidable team for the rest of this year.


I wouldnt do it unless we resign Allen on the cheap next year. We would miss Deng's rebounding and that could cost us some games. 

Deng would be a good 3rd or 4th option on this team next year.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

BG7 said:


> Getting rid of both of them would allow us to sign a max free agent. Allen/Salmons/Devin Brown should allow us to finish out as an above .500 team.
> 
> Then as long term pieces going into the off season we have Derrick Rose, Taj Gibson, and Joakim Noah. I think that we would be able to get Dwyane Wade/Chris Bosh both if we were to make these trades. I think you could sell *Wade and Bosh* that playing with Rose and Noah is better than Chalmers and Beasley in Miami.
> 
> Getting rid of both Hinrich/Deng in the same trade would just make us ridiculous power players in 2010 free agency. Especially making a trade like the one proposed here, that would keep us as a playoff team for this season.


That would be the ideal off season! 

But how do we address the SF for next year because I dont see them resigning Salmons. Are we real contenders with Brown and maybe JJ at the sf position? Depending on where we pick from in the draft, I doubt that a SF can come in and play well for us.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

RollWithEm said:


> I agree with a lot of your post especially about Wade and Boozer in Miami together and about Lebron likely re-signing, but not this part. I think the chances that Bosh stays in Toronto are very, very low. I think a haul of JJ and Bosh or Rudy and Bosh is in the mix for the Bulls if they can get rid of some of these contracts. That leaves them with a championship contending core for sure.


I too think JJ to the Bulls is a real possibility. I have read on many boards for the last year Bulls fans asking why in the hell would JJ leave the Hawks? Well, this is Joe Johnson we are speaking about! He left a good Suns team to sign with the Hawks! That core was awful. Just awful the first year or two. 
The Bulls have a better core than the Hawks did. I am not saying we have a better core now. 

I hope we land Bosh as well.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> Oh I agree Casey, we definitley have to take a shot, we need another star on this team for sure! I just don't think our odds are nearly as good as some hope. A lot of people make it seem like a foregone conclusion that* Wade or Lebron will sign here*, that would be lovely but I am just saying it isn't likely. We still need to be in a position to make it happen if we should be so lucky. Of course, I'm not so sure about needing to free up enough cap to add TWO free agents since we will probably be lucky to get one although there is some merit to that line of thinking also.
> 
> ACE


There are not only Bulls fans, but many beat writers and bloggers think that as well. Personally, I dont think it is a foregone conclusion at all. I would love it if one or the other sings with us.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Bogg said:


> There seems to be some sort of feeling that the Bulls NEED to make a run at Wade/Lebron and Bosh for this to be a successful summer. Keep in mind that Rose has the ability to be a top 10 player in the league, and they already have a good young center in Noah and a great utility man in Deng. They just need talented scorers, but not necessarily elite players, at the power forward and swingman positions. Wade/Bosh would be fantastic, but Iguodala and Jefferson probably make this roster a championship-caliber team.


We need another star, no doubt, we need some shooters. We need a big man that can score. That could be Bosh right there. Bosh, and some shooters? That could be enough to make us contenders. 

Getting some shooters and Bosh on this team would open it up for Rose!


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## bullsger (Jan 14, 2003)

truebluefan said:


> There are not only Bulls fans, but many beat writers and bloggers think that as well. Personally, I dont think it is a foregone conclusion at all. I would love it if one or the other sings with us.



Foregone conclusion...have they contact to some fortune tellers? 


LeBron would be the bigger surprise as a new Bulls player this summer. But who knows?


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

BullsBaller said:


> I am really torn here b/c I think trading Deng, as opposed to Hinrich would be better. Why?
> 
> 1) Deng's contract is going up which will make the Bulls have less money this summer compared to Hinrich's whose salary is going down. Hinrichs salary helps them in free agency & Dengs doesn't.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more, mainly due to the bolded parts. As I've said for years, Kirk's defense and versatility is invaluable. Why do you think the teams that always want him are the contenders, even though they'd use him as a 6th man? Because D wins, and he is a good defender, can play both the 1 and the 2, and when he's hot can hit the 3. Deng is a dime a dozen SF. Pick up Rudy Gay in FA....he's the one guy I really think the Bulls could definitely target and have a very good chance at signing, as I don't think he'll resign in Memphis and what athletic wing like him wouldn't wanna play with Rose? 

My offseason, as I said before, would result in this lineup as the top 7:

Rose/Hinrich
Hinrich/Gay
Gay/JJ
Stoudemire (or Bosh)/Gibson
Noah/Gibson

Trade up in the draft to secure either Aldrich or a 2/3.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

To really move Deng, you would presumably need an interested team who is willing to provide loads of cap space to the Bulls and a team particularly lacking in the skill areas Luol brings to the table. The major expiring deals possibly on the market right now are Big Z (Cavs), Ray Allen (Celtics), Carlos Boozer (Jazz), Tracy McGrady (Rockets), Brendan Haywood (Wizards), Kenny Thomas (Kings), Josh Howard (Mavs), Marcus Camby (Clippers), and Manu Ginobili (Spurs). Other large expiring deals out there that are probably not really on the market include Jermaine O'Neal and Udonis Haslem (Heat), Bobby Simmons (Nets), Larry Hughes and Al Harrington (Knicks), and Chris Bosh (Raptors).

First, let me tackle the ones not really on the market. The *Raptors* have recently indicated that they will be keeping Bosh through the end of the year for their playoff run. The *Knicks*, *Heat*, and *Nets* have to keep every bit of their upcoming salary cap space for the offseason. That rules out those 4 teams.

Second, let's take a stab at the teams on which Deng wouldn't make much sense. The *Celtics *are not in the market for another swing man. They need a ball-handling guard or a big man. The *Cavs* would probably consider Deng their third or 4th option at the PF spot (behind at least Murphy and Jamison) since Deng would be playing out of position for them. The *Spurs* already made their play for an athletic SF last offseason with the Richard Jefferson move. 

Third, I'll look at the teams on which Deng isn't a completely ideal fit. The *Rockets* spent money last offseason upgrading their 3-position with Trevor Ariza. Also, Battier is arguably their most complete defensive player, and he also plays the 3. This team is looking to upgrade at either the 2 or the 4 spot right now. A Deng/Salmons for Haywood/Mike Miller trade would make a lot of sense for both teams... if the *Wizards* are able to move Caron Butler in another deal for a scoring SG (like possibly Kevin Martin). Otherwise, the Wizards are not looking to take on salary at a position where they already have an all-star player. The *Mavs* would love to do a Deng for Howard swap, but they don't have any intriguing young players to give the Bulls back. That's not enough cap space for the Bulls to give up one of their core pieces.

Fourth, let's discuss the only 3 destinations that seem plausible for a Deng-centric deal. The *Jazz* have been so red hot lately that trading Boozer seems unlikely, but why wouldn't they unless they truly think they can win a championship this season? Maybe they do, but if they don't... look at this trade for both teams. The Bulls trade Luol Deng/John Salmons/Lindsay Hunter for Carlos Boozer/Kyle Korver. The Bulls might just kill two birds with one stone on this trade. If they resign Boozer (and maybe even Korver, too... at a discount) this offseason, they would still have enough cap space to make a run at a top wing player. 

The *Kings* might be interesting, as well. So let's say the trade looks like this: Deng/Salmons/Pargo for Kevin Martin/Kenny Thomas. This move frees up the SG spot for Tyreke Evans and upgrades the SF spot with a young asset. The Kings also stay very much alive in the John Wall sweepstakes. For the Bulls, the guard rotation would become Rose/Martin/Hinrich, and they would have just enough money to make a push for Bosh this offseason. That's definitely a possibility.

Another possible destination would be the *Clippers*. Their core group of guys consists of Griffin (a PF), Gordon (a SG), and Thornton (most ideally a 6th man). Deng would make a lot of sense in that line-up going into the future. Would the Bulls be willing to part with him for this package? Deng/Salmons for Camby/Mardy Collins/Ricky Davis/DeAndre Jordan/1st Round Pick? That's 3 expiring deals, one potential lottery pick, and one 21-year-old prospect (Jordan) for the Bulls. This move would open up a ton of cap space. Also if Camby likes playing in Chicago and if he likes the moves they make this offseason, he might think about signing a reasonable extension to play for a contender. This move makes the Bulls a big player in the Bosh, Wade, Lebron, JJ, and Boozer markets after the season.

For me, though, the possible destinations for Hinrich seem a little more appealing than the ones for Deng. What do you think?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

caseyrh said:


> Like I said earlier the salary cap would have to be at around 56 mil or higher for them to be able to offer 2 max contracts. Which is within reason considering the cap was about 59 mil(or close) last year. So it is within reason as it is hard to guess what the cap will be now or how much it will drop.



Yes thats true too, it does depend on where the cap comes in at and all the estimates I have heard have been rather varied. At the start of the season we were hearing it could be reduced to as much as 50 million! Then forecasters said that the season hasn't been as bad as expected and that it looks more like it could be more around the 53 million range. I haven't heard the rosy 56 million range from anyone though I supposse anythings possible. I read an article today and it essentially said that if the Bulls traded both Hinrich & Salmons for expirings and let Tyrus go, they would have an estimated 30million under the cap, so that would be one max free agent and one pretty expensive guy. Maybe we would have enough to do Joe Johnson & David Lee? I assume that articles also is taking into account our draft pick and also that trading that for nothing would give us an addl. 1.5 mil or something.

ACE


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

ace20004u said:


> Yes thats true too, it does depend on where the cap comes in at and all the estimates I have heard have been rather varied. At the start of the season we were hearing it could be reduced to as much as 50 million! Then forecasters said that the season hasn't been as bad as expected and that it looks more like it could be more around the 53 million range. I haven't heard the rosy 56 million range from anyone though I supposse anythings possible. I read an article today and it essentially said that if the Bulls traded both Hinrich & Salmons for expirings and let Tyrus go, they would have an estimated 30million under the cap, so that would be one max free agent and one pretty expensive guy. Maybe we would have enough to do Joe Johnson & David Lee? I assume that articles also is taking into account our draft pick and also that trading that for nothing would give us an addl. 1.5 mil or something.
> 
> ACE


Yeah Joe Johnson and Lee would be nice. Our team would be stacked. 
1.)Rose
2.)JJ
3.)Deng
4.)Lee
5.)Noah
That is a great starting lineup.

Personally I think the cap will be somewhere in the 57 mil range. I just don't see how the NBA could be doing so much worse this year VS last year. I think all of these projections were based on people thinking that the sky was falling. Just my opinion.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

RollWithEm said:


> To really move Deng, you would presumably need an interested team who is willing to provide loads of cap space to the Bulls and a team particularly lacking in the skill areas Luol brings to the table. The major expiring deals possibly on the market right now are Big Z (Cavs), Ray Allen (Celtics), Carlos Boozer (Jazz), Tracy McGrady (Rockets), Brendan Haywood (Wizards), Kenny Thomas (Kings), Josh Howard (Mavs), Marcus Camby (Clippers), and Manu Ginobili (Spurs). Other large expiring deals out there that are probably not really on the market include Jermaine O'Neal and Udonis Haslem (Heat), Bobby Simmons (Nets), Larry Hughes and Al Harrington (Knicks), and Chris Bosh (Raptors).
> 
> First, let me tackle the ones not really on the market. The *Raptors* have recently indicated that they will be keeping Bosh through the end of the year for their playoff run. The *Knicks*, *Heat*, and *Nets* have to keep every bit of their upcoming salary cap space for the offseason. That rules out those 4 teams.
> 
> ...


Very nice breakdown! 

A couple of things I want to mention. The Kings said Martin is not on the block. I read it somewhere earlier. I would have done that trade 

I would do the Clippers trade as well. 

Stein basically said today that Deng will not be traded unless its in a package for one of the big three. Their idea is to have him as a third or 4th option.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

caseyrh said:


> Yeah Joe Johnson and Lee would be nice. Our team would be stacked.
> 1.)Rose
> 2.)JJ
> 3.)Deng
> ...



Maybe it will, I don't know, I know they are trying to bring players salaries into a more reasonable range but I don't think that impacts the cap until the CBA is negotiated. I know it has to do with where the league revenues come in. I wouldn't mind signing JJ & Lee though JJ's age and the fact that he wants a max deal kind of turns me off, I'd feel a lot more comfortable signing Wade if we could get him.

ACE


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> Yes thats true too, it does depend on where the cap comes in at and all the estimates I have heard have been rather varied. At the start of the season we were hearing it could be reduced to as much as 50 million! Then forecasters said that the season hasn't been as bad as expected and that it looks more like it could be more around the 53 million range. I haven't heard the rosy 56 million range from anyone though I supposse anythings possible. I read an article today and it essentially said that if the Bulls traded both Hinrich & Salmons for expirings and let Tyrus go, they would have an estimated 30million under the cap, so that would be one max free agent and one pretty expensive guy. Maybe we would have enough to do Joe Johnson & David Lee? I assume that articles also is taking into account our draft pick and also that trading that for nothing would give us an addl. 1.5 mil or something.
> 
> ACE


We could do worse than JJ and Lee! If that is what we end up with a core of Deng, Rose, and Noah along with Gibson, then that is a nice team! 

I think the idea that we have enough money for two of the top 5 FA this summer is not going to happen. We can sign one top 5, and a lesser FA. We can sign two tier 2 FA as you hinted to. Or the only way we can have two top five FA is if two of them got together, met with pax and JR and one of them takes a cut to fit into the cap. I see older vets doing that all of the time. It is a possibility, but being younger players as they are, I would think they would want their money now.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Of course, we would have crap for depth, something else to at least think about...

ACE


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

The biggest problem we have is that the nets are not going to land any of: 

Bosh
Wade
Lebron
Joe Johnson


this make it extremely likely that they will overpay for possibly two of:

Boozer
Lee
Gay
etc...

they and the knicks will likely overpay for any of those players.

as a result, we have to swing for the fences.......it's at least one of the big 4 or bust.......


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

The Krakken said:


> as a result, we have to swing for the fences.......it's at least one of the big 4 or bust.......


Not really, Derrick Rose is good enough that he should get to level where he can be the best player on a championship team. Even if the NY teams overpay for Boozer, Lee, Gay and/or others, trading for Jefferson and Iguodala(or any combination of a good forward and guard) is probably enough to win a title two or three years down the road(once Rose hits his prime). Chicago's not in the kind of all-or-nothing situation that the Knicks and Nets find themselves in right now.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I'm starting to come down to the conclusion that it will be Amare in 2010, with the talks of a hard cap I cant see the others moving away from their cushy huge deals if they stay home. Amare wants out of Phoenix. If we lose out on Joe Johnson, the FA Market will look like this

1. Amare
2. Gay
3. Boozer
4. Lee

If we come out with Johnson IMO thats a huge win, hes a great player who can really do wonders for the Bulls, that being said if we dont get a big man like Bosh we are definitely going to need to start drafting better or we will have 0 chance of winning a title.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

On this Allen for Hinrich rumor, I just saw on hoopshype that the Celtics are hoping to land Kevin Martin for Ray Allen. While I can't blame Ainge for trying to get good value for Ray Allen, this is LOL stupid if the Kings actually accept that. Since when does any team salary dump a still-relatively-young dynamic 25 ppg scorer, regardless of how injured he's been? If Kings trade Kevin Martin to the Celtics, they had better get either 3+ future 1st rounders (oh wait, they already gave those up in the KG trade!) or give up one of their valuable young players, e.g., Kendrick Perkins (which ain't happening).


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

yodurk said:


> On this Allen for Hinrich rumor, I just saw on hoopshype that the Celtics are hoping to land Kevin Martin for Ray Allen. While I can't blame Ainge for trying to get good value for Ray Allen, this is LOL stupid if the Kings actually accept that. Since when does any team salary dump a still-relatively-young dynamic 25 ppg scorer, regardless of how injured he's been? If Kings trade Kevin Martin to the Celtics, they had better get either 3+ future 1st rounders (oh wait, they already gave those up in the KG trade!) or give up one of their valuable young players, e.g., Kendrick Perkins (which ain't happening).


It won't be a straight up Martin for Allen swap, if it happens. My best guess would be that Boston would have to eat Nocioni's contract for Sacramento(making them players in free agency) and find a third team to get them a big man who can protect the rim. Either Sam Dalembert or a package of Tyrus Thomas+Hinrich or Salmons in exchange for Kenny Thomas' expiring would work(whichever team asks for less in return). I'd also like Boston to pick up Sergio Rodriquez(who's not playing major minutes) to finally give us a backup ball-handler, but he's obviously not a deal-breaker. 

Martin and Nocioni(plus maybe Sergio) to Boston, Ray Allen and either Dalembert or Tyrus Thomas+Guard X to Sacramento, and Kenny Thomas' expiring plus maybe a minor asset to Third Team Y makes sense for all three teams involved and works financially, with additional minor players added in as needed to balance roster numbers.


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## JPTurbo (Jan 8, 2006)

Man Rondo better take Kirk out for a steak or something after the shenanigans he pulled in the playoffs last year. What a tool.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

JPTurbo said:


> Man Rondo better take Kirk out for a steak or something after the shenanigans he pulled in the playoffs last year. What a tool.


Boo Hoo, the Jordan teams were as dirty/physical as anyone this side of the 90's Knicks. It's part of the playoffs, deal with it.


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## JPTurbo (Jan 8, 2006)

Wow, hit a nerve there, huh? Being physical is one thing but intentionally launching someone into the stands should have gotten him suspended for the playoffs. Everyone knows how much of a turd Rondo is as this wasn't the only incident of him acting like a turd. But since it concerns you soooo much, I have dealt with it. I just thought it might be something that still resonated in Hinrich, and will probably need to be addressed should the trade go down.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

JPTurbo said:


> Wow, hit a nerve there, huh? Being physical is one thing but intentionally launching someone into the stands should have gotten him suspended for the playoffs. Everyone knows how much of a turd Rondo is as this wasn't the only incident of him acting like a turd. But since it concerns you soooo much, I have dealt with it. I just thought it might be something that still resonated in Hinrich, and will probably need to be addressed should the trade go down.


Not particularly. I'm not worked up over how Rondo's perceived, I just think it's interesting that some Chicago fans treat him as a villain when the Bulls have fielded some of the more physical/dirty teams of the past two decades. I'd trust that Hinrich is enough of a professional to not take a rough playoff series personally.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Bogg said:


> Not particularly. I'm not worked up over how Rondo's perceived, I just think it's interesting that some Chicago fans treat him as a villain when the Bulls have fielded some of the more physical/dirty teams of the past two decades. I'd trust that Hinrich is enough of a professional to not take a rough playoff series personally.


"physical/dirty" huh?

Physical I'll grant you.... dirty? really? 

I hope you're talking about Dennis Rodman and his antics (which were border-line funny at a certain point, but I can see where an opponent would label him dirty.. I sure did when he was on the Bad Boy Pistons)... because beyond that, I don't really know of any instances of "dirty" play from the Bulls. The championship Bulls and the Jerry Sloan era Bulls were physical, but again, outside of Rodman, I don't know where the "dirty" thing comes from.

Hard to blame Bulls fans for disliking Rondo after he threw Hinrich into the scorers table and cracked Brad Miller in the face last year.... it also helps that Rondo is a good player and was taking it to us a bit... makes it a lot easier to hate him.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Dornado said:


> "physical/dirty" huh?
> 
> Physical I'll grant you.... dirty? really?
> 
> ...


Outside of Rodman it depends on how you define dirty, because in the late eighties/early nineties anything short of an on-court mugging could be labeled "just physical", but now a particularly hard foul might be thought of as "dirty". Granted, in my last post I made them sound worse than the Riley Knicks, which isn't my intent, but rather I was trying to say that in the most physical era of modern basketball the Bulls mixed it up as well as or better than anyone. I understand that it was different time in the league, but the nineties Bulls roughed people up more than Rondo ever has. I understand that the Chicago fans don't like him, but to act like he was so atrocious last spring that Hinrich wouldn't want to play for the C's is blowing it out of proportion.


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## JPTurbo (Jan 8, 2006)

I'm not saying Hinrich wouldn't want to play for the C's, I'm just saying that if Rondo had any class (which he doesn't) he would put forth some type of gesture towards Kirk.


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