# Black Players Are More Athletic



## visionary432

This post is not meant to be racist, I am white myself. Genetically, black men are predisposed to being more athletic than white men. That is why you do not see SUPER athletic white players in the league, but there are many athletic black players. The traditional liberal answer points the finger at social factors. However, if you study the matter physiologically, it has to be genetic. West Africans are great at sprinting and jumping, while east africans are great at long distance running. Their muscles contain a higher proportion of fast-twitch fibres than do whites and africans. Black men, on average, have higher levels of certain enzymes that are tied with athleticism. Africans have developed this athleticism as an adaptation to surroundings. In the past, African families had many children and left them independent. The early ability of black children to be independent physically allowed the mother to have more children. As such, only the athletic children survived in Africa. White europeans did not have to be athletic because they were nurtured by their parents. Even the non-athletic survived. Everyone knows that black people are genetically predisposed to being more athletic. That is why it comes as a surprise when we see an athletic white guy; it is an anomoly. Because of this, i think people become skeptical of guys like Chris Kaman and Kirk Hinrich. When it comes to black people, there isnt as much skepticism about athleticism. White guys have to battle athleticism to get good, unlike black athletes. This is why white players are often percieved to be busts. It's just the way it is.


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## Nevus

Ginobili!

(Good post.)


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## Schmidty

I wonder how long this racist post will stay on the board before it's rightfully deleted.


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## Nevus

To whom is the post demeaning or insensitive?


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## HEATLUNATIC

> In the past, African families had many children and left them independent. The early ability of black children to be independent physically allowed the mother to have more children. As such, only the athletic children survived in Africa. White europeans did not have to be athletic because they were nurtured by their parents. Even the non-athletic survived.


Thats a pretty F'ed up thing to say!!!


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## cmaher

Sigh.. do you know why I finally registered after lurking and wanting to register many times but being too lazy to register? I finally have seen enough of these BS accusations of racism.

Black people are more athletic than white people on average. This is a *SCIENTIFIC FACT*. I'm sorry if this does not fit into your personal, politcally correct, everyone is equal, and INCORRECT philosophy. Life is unfair. Survival of the fittest. Get it? Not everyone is equal. No one has the same potential as the guy next to him, it may be unfair, and I wish everyone was equal, but that is the way it is. As a future scientist, I hate it when people bend the truth to conform to what society demands.

A lot of the stereotypes are true. Most white men can't jump as high as most black men. Black men have larger sexual organs than white men, on average. Black men have more testosterone and are more aggressive than white/asian men on average. Black men can run faster than white/asian men, on average. Black men have more fast twitch muscles on average. You get where I'm going. This is why people of African descent dominate the NBA, Boxing, NFL, and running. They are not built like swimmers, most of the time, or ice skaters, though. There are many more "stereotypes", I don't know why that word has garnered a negative connotation over time, that are true. For example, yes, Asians have higher IQ than average and that is why the stereotype of the Chinese kid doing well in school exists. Ask a biologist or a geneticist about any of these "claims" and ask them to be frank and truthful, and they will verify my "claims" as facts.

Sorry for ranting, but I can't stand ignorance and people shouting "RACIST" at people who are just telling the TRUTH, no matter how ugly that truth may be to some.

If you want the summary or this post is too heavy for this audience, yes, it is TRUE that black people are better at basketball, on AVERAGE, than white or asian people.


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## Jeff van Gumby

So Larry Bird was missing an enzyme? Did you know basketball was dominated by Jewish players in the 20's? Well everybody back then thought that the natural sneakiness of the Jews made them great basketball players. Racial Science is garbage.


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## cmaher

> Originally posted by <b>Jeff van Gumby</b>!
> So Larry Bird was missing an enzyme? Did you know basketball was dominated by Jewish players in the 20's? Well everybody back then thought that the natural sneakiness of the Jews made them great basketball players. Racial Science is garbage.


Sigh, there will always be statistical anomolies. Larry Bird is an anomoly in some ways. He is not very athletic, though, just a good basketball player.

You can call the truth garbage and mix White Supremacy propaganda in with real science and dismiss both of them all together. Fine, the world's a beautiful place. Everyone is equal. Believe whatever you want.

If you want to know the truth, go do some research. Suggesting that enzymes are behind athleticism shows your ignorance. What is the age group of the posters here? I don't see why people don't know basic biology. Again, go do some research and learn something before you call other people racists.

ON AVERAGE, a black person will be better at basketball than a white person, and better at football, better at running, etc.


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## Jeff van Gumby

I was alluding to visionary432 saying something about athletic enzymes. A black person could be more genetically similar to a white person than to another black person, that is a fact. The reason there are more blacks who play basketball is much more complicated than genetics.


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## cmaher

> Originally posted by <b>Jeff van Gumby</b>!
> I was alluding to visionary432 saying something about athletic enzymes. A black person could be more genetically similar to a white person than to another black person, that is a fact. The reason there are more blacks who play basketball is much more complicated than genetics.


Actually, more white people play basketball than black people. Basketball is generally an American sport, and there are around 7 or 8 white persons for every black person, and Im sure that there are more white basketball players than black basketball players in this country.

A 100% black person and a 100% white person could, in theory, be very similar genetically, more so than that black man and another given black man, but this is probably EXTREMELEY rare. When people throw around those statistics, they are trying to combat "racism" and promote equality and poltical correctness, scientist sometimes lose their jobs for stating "racist" facts, so they have to protect their job security. When people say a black man's DNA is 99.999% the same as a white man's DNA, that is TRUE. But it is out of context. A black or white man's DNA is 99.98% the same as an orangotan's, and there has even been serious discussion of including orangotans into the human species, making them a very early ancestor. I've even heard the statistic that a human shares 80% of its DNA with a banana. Most of our DNA is not uniquely human. We evolved from other lifeforms and most of our DNA is "old". In uniquely human DNA, black and white men are not 99% the same, there is a much bigger gap. The gap can be as much or more than 50% difference. Skin color and hair texture is probably the most insignificant difference between people of different races.


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## Kutz1

Yes I believe in the so-called truth. But how do u explain hockey? I mean I'm half black/chinese. How come we don't see black men dominate hockey? Don't get me wrong, there are black men playing presently, but the ratio is very slim. Is there any scientific fact/science behind the analogy of black men and hockey?


Coud it be the cost of buying all this hockey equipment? I mean back then most blacks were underprivileged and couldn't afford to upgrade or even buy hockey equipment. Whereas, basketball...all u need is a bball and a net (i.e. Most US urban street had streetball courts..ala Rucker Park) I could be wrong because many will disagree and point out blacks in football; one has to buy equipment to the equivalent cost of hockey's. Or it might not be the cost. Maybe blacks just hate ice or can't skate whatsoever. Back then, Africans didn't have to deal with the winter conditions no ? hmmm... just some points to think about.


I'm not being racist whatsoever, as I am half black myself. Just stimulating ideas cuz' this topic is very interesting. 

Keep this topic flowing and let's not get in to this racist this and racist that.


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## visionary432

part of the reason with hockey is social, black people do not seem to play it much. another thing is hockey does not depend on athleticism much. even though athleticism plays a part in hockey, it is not nearly as key a component as it is in basketball.


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## Ducket

> I don't know why that word has garnered a negative connotation over time


cmaher, do you really believe that stereotypes are good things? What about negative stereotypes? When people talk about the need for getting rid of stereotypes, it is with the recognition that both good and bad stereotypes are part of the same structure. You can't just get rid of bad ones and keep the good ones. That is why the idea that Black people are more athletic is such a controversial one. It's not that white people can't swallow that black people are better; it's that the thought begs the question _well what is it that white people are better at than blacks?_ This leads down a very dangerous path. Is it a good thing that certain races are seen as generally less intelligent, or less ethical, or lazier than others? Does this do any good? Stereotypes tend to support the power establishment. That is pretty much all they are good for. As for your faith in the 'truth' that science has to offer on the nature of races, I recommend that you read The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould, in which the author deconstructs the methods scientists have used through the ages to 'prove' the superior intellects of certain races. It was revised a few years ago to address a book called The Bell Curve, which had posed an hypothesis similar to your own and Visionary's, which seems to be that differences between races are primarilly genetic and that social, economic, and political factors do not play a significant role, which, I suppose, you might also want to check out.


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## Im The One

> Originally posted by <b>Jeff van Gumby</b>!
> So Larry Bird was missing an enzyme? Did you know basketball was dominated by Jewish players in the 20's? Well everybody back then thought that the natural sneakiness of the Jews made them great basketball players. Racial Science is garbage.


He said blacks are better athletes, he didnt say they werent any good white players. Just that on a average Blacks are born with better althlethic gifts when it comes to b-ball. He's right too, it's been proven, and the post was by no mean racist. It may be hard to accept but it's true.

I dont know what your talking in the last comment.


Oh yea an enzyme?:laugh: Do you even know what that is


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## OZZY

I'm not going to get into this that much, but take this thought.




Black kids growing up only see black athletes around them being successful. They do not see the doctors, or the inventors around them. The only see black athletes, and they are grown to believe that the only way they can succeed and be wealthy is through athletics or music. White kids have fare more options open to them growing up. 

And since more black kids join athletics, there will be a greaters chance that more black kids will succeed in athletics and develope their athletic ability. 

Sure genetics has a little to do with it but I think aggression has more to do with it than genetics.


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## waitandsee

First of all it is not SCIENTIFIC FACT, it is a theory. Ducket was right its very dangerous to talk about such stereotypes. The Nazi regime was build with such stereotypes. I think it has to do with the way somebody grows up. The best sportsman are most of the time poor and they see sports as way to get a better life. Many black kids who grow up in the ghetto live for basketball and play the whole day. For example my mother did not let me play sports the whole day, she said that school is more important. 
If white people are not so athletic, why then more European successe in the NBA? In Europe now play more and more young people basketball. 10 years ago Americans dominated very competition in basketball. Since 4 years they could not win a youth competition, they lost against tiny European countries with 5-10 mil. people. This year even the NBA players got beaten by a tiny Euro country. I am trying to say, that it depends on how serious you take the sport and not on the race.


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## Jmmy_James

> Originally posted by <b>Kutz1</b>!
> Yes I believe in the so-called truth. But how do u explain hockey? I mean I'm half black/chinese. How come we don't see black men dominate hockey? Don't get me wrong, there are black men playing presently, but the ratio is very slim. Is there any scientific fact/science behind the analogy of black men and hockey?
> 
> 
> Coud it be the cost of buying all this hockey equipment? I mean back then most blacks were underprivileged and couldn't afford to upgrade or even buy hockey equipment. Whereas, basketball...all u need is a bball and a net (i.e. Most US urban street had streetball courts..ala Rucker Park) I could be wrong because many will disagree and point out blacks in football; one has to buy equipment to the equivalent cost of hockey's. Or it might not be the cost. Maybe blacks just hate ice or can't skate whatsoever. Back then, Africans didn't have to deal with the winter conditions no ? hmmm... just some points to think about.
> 
> 
> I'm not being racist whatsoever, as I am half black myself. Just stimulating ideas cuz' this topic is very interesting.
> 
> Keep this topic flowing and let's not get in to this racist this and racist that.



Great point. Being from Detroit area, where there are a LOT of hockey player I thought about this myself. My conclusion is two-fold.

1) Hockey is easily the most expensive sport. 

2) Young blacks don't want to play because there are no players to identify with.


I am not going to go too deep with my theories, just list them up. Let me know if you have any comments.


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## Jmmy_James

> Originally posted by <b>Jeff van Gumby</b>!
> So Larry Bird was missing an enzyme?


Bird was only a marginal "athlete". He was a generation type baseketball player however.


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## Scinos

I don't really want to get into this discussion, but I think it is quite true. Genetics explain why people run faster than others or develop muscle faster...etc.

Anyone of any race or size could in theory be a very good basketball player. However genetics determine a lot of it. If you look at the top SG's in the league, they all have very similar body types e.g Jordan, Kobe, TMac, LeBron, Finley and even Ricky Davis and Stephen Jackson. They are physically similar, 6'7" to 6'8" and really skinny naturally. Although, they do weights, so they end up with muscular upper bodies and skinny muscular legs. They all are fast and have pretty mad hops. Yes, there are exceptions to this, like A.I, but generally they fit this kind of description.


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## BCH

This thread can stay as long as it remains civil and does not degenerate into crass stereotypes and stupidity, which I doubt will happen. Good luck. Anyone that feels like taking it to that level will be dealt with harshly.


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## lw32

> Originally posted by <b>cmaher</b>!
> Asians have higher IQ than average and that is why the stereotype of the Chinese kid doing well in school exists.


Sorry to disagree, but I don't believe Asians have higher IQ's due to genetics. After living in Asia for 9 years, I believe that it has to do with the system they are brought up in and the pressure to succeed in school. You see kids committing suicide after recieving their exam results because of the pressure put on them to succeed, often by their parents. Children that don't succeed often feel as if they have let their parents down, and then turn to suicide. Take a look at Japan, which I believe has a problem with this. The Chinese are probably the best example of children that don't necessarily have the best IQ, but are pushed by their parents and teachers to succeed. The Joy Luck Club is a classic example, just apply it to school.

I don't believe that their is a great IQ difference, it is just the Asian children that are fortunate to go to school are forced to cherish the experience and reach their potential. A lot of us take school for granted, whereas many of them, and often the parents, have not had the oppurtunities so the children are pushed.

I do know that endurance running is a trait often found in African's because of the breathing pattern used. I can't remember the exact reason because it's been a while since my higher level bio courses for IB but often times certain traits are found because of the childs surroundings. I believe the reason why certain people succeed in basketball is more to do with their determination, and thats why we are seeing more Europeans than Americans now adays. The same can be applied to nearly any situation, including school. In the end of the day, I believe that the athleticism of the player can only bring them so far, their determination and will to learn is what matters.

Sorry if this has insulted anyone, this was not meant to insult and hurt.


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## mental_case

Why is it that all the good black athletes, save for long distance runners, come from American. Neither black euros nor Africans are any better athletes than white euros. It could be the fear that white people in America have for black people, or the intimidation, or white guilt. Whatever the reason, there are many great white athletes who are sitting behind a desk somewhere, who never gave it a 100 percent effort, because they felt they could not compete with blacks. Another couple of reasons for black athletic sucess is that the slaves that were brought to America had a hard journey and only the strong survived. These blacks were then mated with a strong female to produce a strong baby,and so on, and so on, and so on. This in turn made the black physically strong and powerful. Meanwhile the flip side to that is the weakening of the white male, especially in war. Of all the wars that America has fought, 95% of the casualities were the healthiest, most physically fit white males, except for Vietnam. Then it was about 85%. BTW, I'm not trying to be racist or controversial, it's just MHO.


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## Kutz1

Yeah I agree it has to do mostly with genetics. I mean in terms of athletism and the biological physicalities, blacks tend to shows signs of these at a very early age. 

For example, my black neighbour, who is ONLY GRADE 6 (11yrs old) is already developing muscles. I mean just by observing his muscle tone/shape, you can tell this kid will be even more athletic/built in the future. Mind you, this black kid rarely plays any sports or workouts. However, he does have a natural love for bball, but this kid isn't a hardcore baller. I mean he already has abs. Also, I have a black buddy of mind, who plays no sports whatsoever and does weed often, and still has a lot of muscle definition/abs. I mean, me and my friends have to work our *** off (work out/weight train) while black dudes like my buddy i mentioned let genetics scalped them to become athletically defined in terms of the physicality aspect.


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## MemphisX

> Originally posted by <b>mental_case</b>!
> Why is it that all the good black athletes, save for long distance runners, come from American. Neither black euros nor Africans are any better athletes than white euros. It could be the fear that white people in America have for black people, or the intimidation, or white guilt. Whatever the reason, there are many great white athletes who are sitting behind a desk somewhere, who never gave it a 100 percent effort, because they felt they could not compete with blacks. Another couple of reasons for black athletic sucess is that the slaves that were brought to America had a hard journey and only the strong survived. These blacks were then mated with a strong female to produce a strong baby,and so on, and so on, and so on. This in turn made the black physically strong and powerful. Meanwhile the flip side to that is the weakening of the white male, especially in war. Of all the wars that America has fought, 95% of the casualities were the healthiest, most physically fit white males, except for Vietnam. Then it was about 85%. BTW, I'm not trying to be racist or controversial, it's just MHO.


This is much closer to the truthI think it is only in America where physically superior blacks have always been held in higher esteem. Just like in Asian communities it is intellectual. It has more to do with 'the path to success' in your enviroment. I think you will see a much more evening out of physical and mental traits in the future.


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## Ryoga

Hello,

I'm not a biologist but I made some researches about this in the past, when I discovered that MOST of the experts support the social explanation of the difference between black and white pepole.
But after studying better all those arguments, I realized that there was something wrong: there were political reasons behind such claims, not scientific.

As Ducket pointed out, these discussions may lead to some questions like "what white men do better?", and that's imo the reason why the soci-cultural thesis is so popular.

But popular doesn't really mean true in my book. And the truth might be different than what people hope it is. I actually think that's an empirical evidence that black people are on average more suited for basketball and other anaerobical sports (I know the differences between west and east africans, I'm only making it easier because I want to concentrate somewherelse). There might be socio-cultural reasons behind too, but I see too big of gap to accept this explanation alone. 

Let's just add some beef now: what about a study trying to demonstrate that black people are genetically less intelligent? I'm sure a civil war would start, asking for the head of those villians who made that claim... but is this the right approach? shouldn't people try to read and understand the studies someone made and find holes in his arguments? Jeez, first he would have had to define intelligence (it's not like IQ in universally considered a valid measurement), second prove that there are sinsible differences between races, third prove that there are not other reasons behind such a gap (and this is VERY tough, considering how a good education always increases IQ). But if everything looked correct? Would you call such theory "wrong" because you simply don't like it?


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## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>cmaher</b>!
> Sigh.. do you know why I finally registered after lurking and wanting to register many times but being too lazy to register? I finally have seen enough of these BS accusations of racism.
> 
> Black people are more athletic than white people on average. This is a *SCIENTIFIC FACT*. I'm sorry if this does not fit into your personal, politcally correct, everyone is equal, and INCORRECT philosophy. Life is unfair. Survival of the fittest. Get it? Not everyone is equal. No one has the same potential as the guy next to him, it may be unfair, and I wish everyone was equal, but that is the way it is. As a future scientist, I hate it when people bend the truth to conform to what society demands.
> 
> A lot of the stereotypes are true. Most white men can't jump as high as most black men. Black men have larger sexual organs than white men, on average. Black men have more testosterone and are more aggressive than white/asian men on average. Black men can run faster than white/asian men, on average. Black men have more fast twitch muscles on average. You get where I'm going. This is why people of African descent dominate the NBA, Boxing, NFL, and running. They are not built like swimmers, most of the time, or ice skaters, though. There are many more "stereotypes", I don't know why that word has garnered a negative connotation over time, that are true. For example, yes, Asians have higher IQ than average and that is why the stereotype of the Chinese kid doing well in school exists. Ask a biologist or a geneticist about any of these "claims" and ask them to be frank and truthful, and they will verify my "claims" as facts.
> 
> Sorry for ranting, but I can't stand ignorance and people shouting "RACIST" at people who are just telling the TRUTH, no matter how ugly that truth may be to some.
> 
> If you want the summary or this post is too heavy for this audience, yes, it is TRUE that black people are better at basketball, on AVERAGE, than white or asian people.


you're almost right but not quite. the fact of the matter is that due to mico-evolutionary forces, the earth has bred a wide spectrum of humans in terms of height and athleticism. west africa is reknowned for their athleticism, especially fast twitch muscle fibre. different groups in that huge area produce some of the greatest long-distance runners, whose athletic makeup is completely different. 

the thing you HAVE to remember is that their is an entire world of these athletic groupings. take a look at any area of the world and the level of athleticism achieved by different humans is legendary. every different race is born with elite level athletes but different programming can nurture ability or waste it.


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## compsciguy78

I agree that black people, ON AVERAGE, are more athletic, but there are exceptions to every rule. 

I do not believe that asian people have higher IQ's!!! That is a crock of bs. First of all, lumping all asian people into one group is kind of broad. If you take one asian country, China, they might do better in school but that does not mean they have higher IQ's. Doing well in school has as much to do with hard work and discipline as it does with IQ. 

Usually the guys with the accepted highest IQ's historically have not been Asians. Einstein, Isaac Newton, and countless other famous physicists/mathematicians have been of other descent.

This is another theory but I usually see that Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and other Asian countries produce great students but these are not the people that have the highest IQ's. A lot of "Asians" are good at thinking inside a set of rules but once they are put in unfamiliar territory they are limited by these rules. You have to have been around many high IQ "Asians" to understand what I mean.


Great topic!!!!


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## benfica

*Who knows*

I grew up in black neighborhood as a poor white, there were a few white hardcore BB players in the area. They all had a black game and some had amazing hops. One 6'1" white kid was the best leaper in the area. But there were others like him who
were as talented. One thing that I noticed was that the white kids who played with blacks every day had similar games, they love to dunk and street ball. Well there were four white kids that grew up together, they were called white ******s..because they talked black, dress, had a street game and hung out with blacks. The black neighborhood really took liking them and supported them as their own. They were mad ballers, tough and all they did was play 8 hours a day 360 days a year. 

All four went to a white Suburb HS where the coach there was more into organized mechanical and disciplined basketball. This team had one black player, who actually had a white man's game. The coach had a difficult time trying to get the four white poor kids, with city game, to buy into his system. They were not well liked by the white students, and hung around the few black students in the school. They were basically outcasts and found refuge on the city courts.

The coach finally give in and allow them to play their city game. That team started clicking winning against city schools playing the city fast run and gun game..and excelleing. They went undefeated against some of the toughest competition in the east coast mostly against inner city teams composed of taller black kids, scoring in the 90s when usually in the past that team would be lucky to hit 50. They out ran, out dribble, out jump them and dunking on them, with the tallest one being 6'2". They beat the city kids at their own game. They played this one game against their city rival who happened to have the best black HS player in the country, an All-American and city legend(the Lebron James of today). They won this close game 93-92, people who have seen it say it was the best game ever. There were over 100 of college scouts there to see the city All-American. Thats who they came to see. What they saw instead was these white kids who could really play the city game. Up to that point none of the scouts were interested in seeing them. This game gave them visibility to possibly get college scholarhips. The college coaches however were concerned about their coachability and heard rumors that they were trouble and not very good students. One
major college coach even told one of them that if he was black,
he could get him in the school despite his grades.


Three of the white kids went on to star at the college level. At the college level the coaches again try to make them play white type ball, pass and set picks. One of them was a PG with a future NBA HOF center. He sacrificed his game somewhat to allow the team to setup the big man under the basket and pass him the ball. In the summer leagues he would dominate other more higher profile PG by scoring 40+ points a game up the east coast. But he did what the coach asked and the went on to have a 25-3 record at the Div 1 level by being a distributor.

Another went on to earn All-American honors as a Junior, averaging 27+ points a game, become a college legend and declared for the draft, getting picked in the first round. 

The best leaper and rebounder of them who played forward in HS, went to a small southern school where he was moved to the guard position and started scoring 30 points a game and was later drafted by the SPURS. He also became a legend in the playground when after returning from his Freshman college season, taking a bunch of local neighborhood ballers and beating a team made up of college all-stars and taking the MVP and championship awards. 

Three of them were drafted by the NBA. Their city game got them there, however it also caused their downfall. They were not accepted by the black players who they identified with. They had
nothing in common with the few white NBA players, there was no support system. They grew discouraged and eventually were cut, one lasting a few years. Going back to dominating street ball at Ruckers and other east coast leagues. What should have been a great rags to riches story turned into sad situation on how the world really works.

These guys had similiar games as Jason Williams, also same
personality. They had a city game to go with it and a blackness that the world was not ready...especially being white. 

However, they never saw themselves as athletically inferior to black players because they grew up with them. They wanted to be ballers like the past black hood legends that they worship.


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## Jeff van Gumby

It is true that black are on average more athletic but is athletes genetic? Not always. If you took Mike Miller's DNA and compared it to Shawn Kemp's and Vlade's DNA the chance of Miller's DNA being closer to Vlade is zero. The reason athletic achievement doesn't match genetics is the expression of traits is being altered by our culture. Our culture tells kids that they are different from kids of other races and their parents reinforce it.


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## visionary432

Hey benfica, wanna give us the names of these players and what schools they went to. It's a really interesting story, im just interested to see who you are talking about.


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## aznbusyboy

Black people are born with more fast twitch muscle fiber. Which allows them to jump higher and to run faster. You look at the Olympics jumpers and short distance runners. The majority are black people.


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## ian

> Originally posted by <b>cmaher</b>!
> Sigh.. do you know why I finally registered after lurking and wanting to register many times but being too lazy to register? I finally have seen enough of these BS accusations of racism.
> 
> Black people are more athletic than white people on average. This is a *SCIENTIFIC FACT*. I'm sorry if this does not fit into your personal, politcally correct, everyone is equal, and INCORRECT philosophy. Life is unfair. Survival of the fittest. Get it? Not everyone is equal. No one has the same potential as the guy next to him, it may be unfair, and I wish everyone was equal, but that is the way it is. As a future scientist, I hate it when people bend the truth to conform to what society demands.
> 
> A lot of the stereotypes are true. Most white men can't jump as high as most black men. Black men have larger sexual organs than white men, on average. Black men have more testosterone and are more aggressive than white/asian men on average. Black men can run faster than white/asian men, on average. Black men have more fast twitch muscles on average. You get where I'm going. This is why people of African descent dominate the NBA, Boxing, NFL, and running. They are not built like swimmers, most of the time, or ice skaters, though. There are many more "stereotypes", I don't know why that word has garnered a negative connotation over time, that are true. For example, yes, Asians have higher IQ than average and that is why the stereotype of the Chinese kid doing well in school exists. Ask a biologist or a geneticist about any of these "claims" and ask them to be frank and truthful, and they will verify my "claims" as facts.
> 
> Sorry for ranting, but I can't stand ignorance and people shouting "RACIST" at people who are just telling the TRUTH, no matter how ugly that truth may be to some.
> 
> If you want the summary or this post is too heavy for this audience, yes, it is TRUE that black people are better at basketball, on AVERAGE, than white or asian people.


It's not a "SCIENTIFIC FACT", it's a "[strike]DUMBASS ASSUMPTION BASED ON WATCHING PROFESSIONAL SPORTS[/strike]". Many possible causes can be attributed to black athletes dominating some sporting events, such as social causes. You use Asians as an example of being higher than average IQ genetically - The highest average IQ group is Sephardic Jews, and that is believed to be widely due to the way in which children are raised. Culture is responsible, not extra fast-twitch muscles or whatever else you can flaunt as "scientific fact". You know nothing of science or of what you're speaking. Much of what you say is not only incorrect, but very offensive.

*Let's watch baiting. Thanks, Devestata.*


----------



## -33-

take this for what its worth....

i was playing at the park about a week ago....5 white guys there including me.....5 black guys walk up and we ask if they wanna play.....we were gonna shoot em up for teams but they wanted to do black vs. white.....now if this little theory was true then they would of killed us being more athletic and everything.......well we won both games we played.....they werent 5 retards or out of shape bums they were legit games....i'm not racist at all but you can put a white guy up against a black guy and have the white guy win or atleast be an even game.....its not that big of an advantage

anyone who plays basketball anywhere knows that a black guy almost always gets picked ahead of a white guy when no one knows the talent of either one.....what i'm saying is that john stockton and a black guy who's never played before could walk up to play a pick up game and i bet the black guy gets picked first imagining that they didnt recognize john....


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## vindicate

Basically, if your saying u beat 5 black guys, it doesnt mean ****. Take the top 5 black players in the NBA against the top 5 white players in the NBA, see who wins, the best of the best, not some random players. As far as you know, it could've been there 5th time playing Basketball. 
This is the same situation in Sexs, Take the strongest male, he will be stronger than the strongest female.


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## -33-

why do you think the best 5 white lost to the best 5 black?

its just a stupid comment to make


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## vindicate

Your claiming visionary234 theory is flase, i believe its very true. But you beating 5 RANDOM black people doesn't mean anything. Look by the performance on NBA charts. See how often a white guy shows up on Highest Scoring or Highest FG %.


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## HKF

Someone had a comment about IQ.

I am Bi-racial and I have a pretty high IQ, just below MENSA level, yet I still love watching sports and playing on my computer as opposed to reading all the time. 

I have no athletic ability and I always fit in with whites in my neighborhood, but the blacks in my neighborhood usually never understood how I could outplay them with no athletic ability. I beat them with smarts and skills.

But when you get to the pro level or even the college level most of these guys gain more basketball IQ, so it is very hard to beat them with smarts only, that is when athletic ability really matters. 

Uka Agbai (who plays for Boston College) is a good friend of mine and we were playing against each other in AAU and I was killing him because he couldn't guard a 6'3 point guard, and his guard couldn't get the ball to him because I played him smart and they weren't that good. 

If you have desire and determination you can overcome some limitations you have. If everyone was pre-disposed to the same things we wouldn't see as many differences between different ethnicities.

Like rich blacks almost never play basketball; they golf, play tennis, bowl or do other affluent things because chances are their affluent friends all do those things.


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## -33-

it is a stupid comment and stupid to argue it.....no matter what i say i'm gonna say that if i get myself and 4 white ballers and you get 4 other black balllers........i'm gonna compete just like i would against anyone else......its stupid to think their black we lost cuz its not true at all.....you can think that if you want, but it gives white players an advantage b/c you think you are better b/c you're black...


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## Nevus

Isn't this about athletic ability and not basketball playing ability? Some of you are making this really complicated.

Do social causes make people natural athletes?


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## tinygiant

This entire argument is a little bit of a red herring. I find it interesting to note that this thread was posted in the NBA Draft section in order to make some sort of comment about Chris Kaman, Kirk Hinrich etc.
And so if this is the type of criteria that is being used to judge players for a draft, then obviously scouts and GMs aren't doing their jobs.
Athletic ability is something that is identifiable in individuals. So if people are saying "I'm not going to take this guy because he's white and I'm afraid that he might not be very athletic" that's just lazy and stupid.
It would be like saying that, on average, people from smaller conferences are shorter, so you aren't going to take Kaman because you're worried that he might be short. Just go take a look at the guy! Evaluate individuals, not groups.
People have talked about racism, but it isn't even that strong. The beginning of any kind of bigotry is assuming that people are and act like groups and not individuals. That is the problem with any sort of argument of this kind.


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## JustinYoung

Why is this in the draft forum? Besides, this is an over analyzed useless discussion.


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## -33-

exactly--there are plenty of white players who are better than black players...and vice versa....its a stupid argument b/c there is no way to put facts on the board to prove your point


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## ill subliminal

I think everybody needs to remind themselves that this discussion is supposed to be about athletic ability, not basketball ability or smarts. Especially Mr. Caron underscore Butler over there. Although you and your friends may have been better players, chances are that the black players could jump higher, run faster, and were more sculpted. If not, well, then this case was definitely in the minority.

The most interesting post so far I think has been the one about natural selection of the slave ships. Since conditions were so horrible, only the strongest Africans survived, creating a gene pool of very athletic people.

And about Hinrich and such, Hinrich actually is athletic, except for that ugly two handed dunk that he loves so much. Okay, I love it too.


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## bigbub2671n

Didn't Brent Barry win the dunk contest a few years ago. Yeah? So white people should just shut up. Some of them are very athletic.


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## waitandsee

How ca you explain Yugoslavia this little country which beat the dream team. White kids in America do not have role models in basketball. In Yugoslavia the Kids have many role models. Therefore, they believe that they can successed. It is the same with the black kids they have a lot of role models.
In the next ten years, this stereotypes about basketball will gone, because many European players will come to the NBA and prove that white guys can play basketball, too.
What about the Asians? You thought they can not play basketball and now you have Yao and many more will follow


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## Springsteen

There are a whole lot of people who are missing the point of this thread, or arguing things that are wrong.

1. Athleticism and basketball playing skills are NOT the same thing. (So Caron_Butler...go away).

2. Socio-economic factors really wont have a huge influence on athleticism. While these factors might not determine whether or not you play a specific sport, whether you are poor or rich, you'll still be a good runner if you are genetically pre-disposed to be.

3. People who play hockey do more so because of environment then athletics. Whoever said it was the most expensive was bang on. Also, there are less black people in colder climates (where you can play outside for free in the winter). That all contributes.

4. IQ isn't a solid measure like "vertical leap". Some people consider the tests culturally and sexually biased. Also, as for Asians having higher IQ's it's possible that the guy who said that first meant to say that they seemed to have smarter people because of the high stress that is placed upon education culturally. I've gone to school with many Asians, and I know that they aren't any smarter than the rest of the kids. They most certainly don't have abnormally high IQ's. They just work harder. Their parents want them to work harder etc. etc. (As for the guy who mentioned that most great thinkers were non-Asian, that's more of a societal thing. Most great theories of the past come from Europeans, Greeks, Egyptians etc, not just because they were smart people, but because they had a wealth of scientific literature, and funds to pursue scientific endeavors).

5. This discussion should not involved what you see in the NBA. People forget that these pro athletes are like the top 0.1% of the population. These guys, even the white guys I should add, are athletically gifted, more so then most of the guys you'll see at the playground. Something like this should consider people you see from all over. People you see at the gym, the playground etc, not just the top tier.

6. Finally, the MOST important thing people lose sight of....THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO EVERY RULE. (Except for Larry Bird...see point 1. He was an average athlete if we are being generous. Brent Barry etc.). Stating that you know a guy who went to a place and did a thing, which was better than a black guy is great. But the whole discussion is ON AVERAGE. 

But seriously. Until someone comes up with a scientific journal link, where creadible scientists have proven black people have more x, or white people have less y, any theory is mere speculation, and far from a SCIENTIFIC FACT. The guy who said that, should have provided a link.


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## Ryoga

You won't find any conclusion, because scientists are still arguing about this.

I can give you this link...
http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/about_interview.htm


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## vindicate

Nicely Said
but, on the average, according to your economic beliefs, people in Africa are economically in ruins due the 19th-20th century imperalisim. I don't believe there is one country in Africa that isn't 3rd world. Social Darwinism comes in here, Those that can't do the Manual work that is work in developing nations will die, only the ones with the good genes survive.
However in 1st rate countries such as U.S. if you can't do manual work, you will find work in something your better at, therefor the bad genes will even survive.
So, MOST, not all africans, are better fit.


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## -33-

and my point still stands---

the color of your skin doesnt make you a better athlete or basketball player


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## vindicate

Caron_butler your ignorant and close minded, leave the discussion plz.


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## -33-

how the hell am i ignorant?????????

what the **** have i said that makes me ignorant????

prove me wrong or something before you call me ignorant


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## -33-

gotta go...i'll read up and finish this argument when i get back


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## Springsteen

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> how the hell am i ignorant?????????
> 
> what the **** have i said that makes me ignorant????
> 
> prove me wrong or something before you call me ignorant



the irony is, that you are the guy who was throwing around the word "stupid".


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## Ryoga

*Re: Who knows*



> Originally posted by <b>benfica</b>! One of them was a PG with a future NBA HOF center. He sacrificed his game somewhat to allow the team to setup the big man under the basket and pass him the ball. In the summer leagues he would dominate other more higher profile PG by scoring 40+ points a game up the east coast. But he did what the coach asked and the went on to have a 25-3 record at the Div 1 level by being a distributor.


this is where someone might find out who one of the guys is, if as I understand he was drafted in the NBA.
My problem is that I just HAVEN'T FOUND a DAMN team with a future HOF center (considering your age, he can be Ewing, Olajuwon or Shaq) with a 25-3 record!


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## Dabears

> Originally posted by <b>Ryoga</b>!
> You won't find any conclusion, because scientists are still arguing about this.


I think that it's generally accepted that different people have different abilities based on adaptation to their original surroundings. The perfect example of this is MANUTE BOL.

Bol is from the Sudan, and he is 7'7". This is not just some freak anomally, it has to do with adaption to the surroundings. The Sudan is extremely hot and sunny, so the people needed to adapt to survive. What ended up happening was they got taller and thinner in order to avoid the sun, as well as to evenly disperse the heat throughout their body, rather than to have it be more concentrated along with their own body heat. 

This can be seen with many people from similar landscapes, like Senegal, the tall, thin build is more common, because it was how people adapted to the surroundings. Similarly, many of the West Africans adapted to become better long distance runners, because they needed to to hunt and move around on the relatively flat and open areas.

It is only recently in the course of history that these natural characteristics have been applied to sports. Obviously talent is the most important aspect of what makes a good player, and social situations are very important in what leads to talent.

These are still however generalizations which can determine what sport a person is more suited to, but does not limit that sport to only people who are predisposed to being the best at it. My family's sporting history is a good example of how situations can either have an affect on talent, or not. 
My Grandfather was a big burrly guy from South Dakota, and he was about 6'0, 250lbs. He was predisposed to playing football because of both his genetics, and his upbringing. He was fairly good, and played for the University of Minnesota.
My dad had a different build, at 6'3", 155lbs, he was more suited to running, because of genetics, but not because of situation. He was an Olympic Qualifier in the 440 yard run, but could never reach his potential, because of a lack of coaching and interset in the sport.
I'm a bit of a cross between them at just over 6'4" , 180lbs. I am a faster short distance sprinter than my dad was, and I can jump higher than he could because I have more power in my lower body, whereas he had good endurance. I am predisposed to be a good basketball player, but I never played until 2 years ago, because it was not a sport that my family ever played. As a result, I'm not very good.

Still, in general, what we are is based on where we have come from, and that does give some people a natural advantage to start with in sports. What you do with that advantage is what's more important.

BEST THREAD YET!!!


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## aznbusyboy

!


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## cmaher

Ah.. the effects of "social engineering".

Do you ever ask yourselves why? Why is everyone equal? Why must everyone be the same? It's because of society and politcal correctness. It has nothing to do with the truth at all. You are taught that if you don't think that everyone is the same, you are a racist.

It is obvious that black people are more athletic than white people, and you can cite all the pro-equality bogus scientific sources that you want, but in the end, socio-economic conditions cannot explain why 80% of the NFL and the NBA is made up of black players even when 80% of America is white. Hardly anyone starves in the US, and there are plenty of public schools and services. It's not like black people have to fight and run and jump for survivial or they focus on sports because they are poor. That makes absolutely no sense. If you think them being poor decides what path they choose for life, they would be more likeley to choose doing well in schoo, because it is a sure path to wealth. Black people are more suited for sports. Boo hoo, you're white, you feel offended and you feel jealous or sad because you aren't as good anymore. Life sucks. Survival of the fittest. Life is unfair.

Modern politcally correct philosophy does not dictate the laws of the universe. Philosophy is a product of our environment, environments and nature is not a product of our philosophy. You may find some scientist who support equality and say it cannot be proven, blah blah blah, that races are different from each other. They are trying to protect their jobs or they are doing this to express what they would like and what I would like. I would love it if everyone on this planet, any race, or any sex, was equal, but that is not the way it is. One must project the truth, no matter how painful it is. 

Think about it, what if a scientist claimed that black's were more athletic and had smaller brains than whites. He wouldn't be very popular, evidence to this is how hostile you are towards me when I stated something that everyone knows but wont admit and I was only talking about athleticism. He would lose his job or be criticized by ignorant groups of people.

It may seem like a dangerous idea to you. One of the reasons why people are so paranoid and hostile towards the theory of "unequality" is that it is the same theory that produced slavery and naziism. You can't dismiss the truth because you are scared of what it might bring. You'll call me a liar and a racist, but deep down, you know I am right. You ask me for evidence. You act as if the fact that 80% of NBA players are black and 80% of NFL players are black and that most of the NBA's superstars are black is not enough.

You think Kobe, Shaq, T-Mac, Duncan, Iverson, Garnett, Marbury, Payton, Francis, Davis, etc, etc, etc.. are not evidence enough. Name one white player that is as skilled in all areas of the game and as athletic as any of those players. 

You think the fact that there has never really been a great white heavyweight boxer for the last 30 years is just a fluke, a coincidence.

You think the fact that over the last 20 years, no Olympic running event has been won by anyone who is not of African descent, is just a coincidence or the result of Africa being a poor continent, or something like that.

Even Arthur Ashe, a pioneer for black athletes and a pioneer against racism said, and I quote:

'*Arthur Ashe best sums up the athletic superiority conundrum in his book A Hard Road to Glory. "Sociology can't explain it. My heart says 'no,' but my head says 'yes.' I have to believe that we blacks have something that gives us an edge. I want to hear from the scientists."* '

I also quote:

Hoberman points out that both blacks and whites have used racial biology to argue that blacks are superior when it comes to athletics. He notes in the book that many black athletes including "O.J. Simpson, Joe Morgan, Carl Lewis and Barry Bonds have made public statements to the effect that black success in sports is due to the fact that blacks are physically superior to whites." The fact that blacks and whites accept the superiority of blacks perpetuates racism, says Hoberman.

You want a credible source that blends together many old and new studies? Why are old studies valueable? Because people weren't afraid to speak the truth back then. There may have been racism among the general population and among some scientists, but there was also no issue of politcal correctness. Here is that source:

http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/Race_Evolution_Behavior.pdf

Also, go the Amazon and search for "Black Athlete".

http://weeklywire.com/ww/08-18-97/austin_pols_feature2.html


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## Kaas

> Originally posted by <b>vindicate</b>!
> Social Darwinism comes in here, Those that can't do the Manual work that is work in developing nations will die, only the ones with the good genes survive.


Social Darwinism is just Darwinism applied to the business world.

Interesting thread.

Also, someone mentioned other races are elite @ different types of athletic abilities. I'm not sure about this. Can anyone bring up specific examples?


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## Cyberwolf

I really didnt want to get into this. Really, I didnt. I feel though, that I have to explain a few things (IMO I suppose).

First of all, while I know that it was not the intent of the poster, some of you could be misconstrued as trying to say that the only reason a particular person is a better athlete then you is because of his genetics. That takes away a lot of hard work from a lot of people. This is one reason why stereotypes are not a good thing. Secondly, I really detest the idea that because there are more black athletes the whites it means that they all MUST be better suited for it and that background plays no role at all. By this line of thought it's painfully easy to say that because there are more white bankers, whites must have a genetic advantage in the banking field. (oddly worded example but oh well.)

The point of this is that when we start judging people by the color of their skin qualified people lose out. There are better ways of judging people then who their ancestors were. While it may seem harmless, making blanket statements about huge groups of people is never always right.

And finally, this topic has no bearing what-so-ever on the NBA Draft, is too serious a discussion for a basketball online forum, and really serves no purpose.


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## cmaher

I put the truth ahead of morality or politcal correctness. 

Arthur Ashe, who was subject to REAL racism, not the stereotypes that are mostly spoken in jest nowadays, seems to agree. He probably had his life threatened. Stereotypes arent a problem when compared to racism. Stereotypes are useful, in fact. They are used everyday and in almost all literature. Why take the necessary time to explain that a person likes sports, etc, etc instead of just calling him a jock. You get what I am saying? 

People here need to learn the truth. I don't care if you think its dangerous, it is the truth, people here deserve to know it.

It affects the NBA draft, because of the European prospect phenomenom.


----------



## Springsteen

> Originally posted by <b>cmaher</b>!
> I put the truth ahead of morality or politcal correctness.
> 
> Arthur Ashe, who was subject to REAL racism, not the stereotypes that are mostly spoken in jest nowadays, seems to agree. He probably had his life threatened. Stereotypes arent a problem when compared to racism. Stereotypes are useful, in fact. They are used everyday and in almost all literature. Why take the necessary time to explain that a person likes sports, etc, etc instead of just calling him a jock. You get what I am saying?
> 
> People here need to learn the truth. I don't care if you think its dangerous, it is the truth, people here deserve to know it.
> 
> It affects the NBA draft, because of the European prospect phenomenom.


Truth is a very strong term. I'd use "a strong possibility". Or, "a theory based on some evidence". It's far from a proven fact. Just re-stating in a bunch of different ways that it is, doesn't resolve the fact that there really is no definitive test which has displayed the original thesis of black people being more athletically inclined for basketball type activity.

Also, I think you over-estimate the impact of political factors on people's reasoning here. I'm not sure people are objecting to the main thesis of the first poster because they want to believe all people are equal. I think they just don't believe it due to lack of evidence and people here being able to display that there are MANY exceptions.

As for a previous posters Manute Bol story, my friend who is Jamaican in origin was telling me that black people have large penis' because they are better at disipating heat in warm climates. He was saying that they are larger flacid for this reason, and that at an excited state, the size increase isn't as extreme. So that's an evolutionary bi-product as well! There's something interesting you can impress the ladies with at the parties! Maybe it's inappropriate, but I had to tell that story.


----------



## benfica

*If you guys want to know who the white guys*

were, read "Chase the Game" by Pat Jordan. Interesting story about white kids growing up black and their total dedication to the game. It is a true story. They usually played in black leagues and were, most of the time, the best players on the court.


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## cmaher

It is not like I am saying there are no good white basketball players. It is not like I am saying there are no athletic white men. Im just saying that there will be more athletes and more people suited for basketball in a group of 100 black men than in a group of 100 white men. I'm not saying that the African race is superior to other races, in fact, I dislike, even hate, African-American hip hop culture and its values and what it teaches. I think African-Americans, as a group, need to give more of a collective effort and emphasis on their education and their lifestyle. I don't like black people more than white people or vice versa. I am not a racist. I am a realist. I am a scientist (not in profession).

You people challenge my theory and say there are many exceptions. There may millions of exceptions, but there are billions of people. I am talking only about averages, Im not saying that if I see a white guy, I automatically rule out the possibility that he is athletic or a good basketball player. Im just saying, If I was the captain of a pickup basketball game, and there were two 6'6" 220 lb basketball players, one white and one black, I'd choose the black guy.

This is how it applies to the draft.

There only appears to be lack of evidence because people who give evidence are heavily criticized. Also, it is so obvious that black men are better at basketball than white men, if you want evidence, just turn on your TV set and watch an NBA game.

Please then, prove to me that white men and black men have equal athletic ability using scientific sources and quotes from athletes. I have provided you with that. Don't just say "everyone is equal" and leave it at that or don't say, oh I know some white guys who are good at basketball. That is not what I am trying to say. Im just trying to say black men are more athletic than white men on average. ON AVERAGE.  ON AVERAGE. *ON AVERAGE.* There will be many good white basketball players, and the fact that they exist does not disprove me in any way. If the NBA was white dominated, it should be if white and black men were equal, there are 8 white men in the united states for every 1 black man, then it would be obvious that I was wrong, and you would all agree with that. But somehow, it doesnt apply because there are less black people, yet more black NBA players. I don't understand that logic. Is it because you guys are white and have pride in your race? Is it because you have been trained to and now "believe" in politcal correctness and equality from the pressure that comes with being white in today's society? I am half white and half Chinese, I wish that I was a member of the dominate race in every aspect of human life or I wish that everyone was equal on average, by race and sex, in every aspect of human life. But thats not the way it is.

Explain to me why I am wrong. Prove me wrong.


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## pr0wler

i cant prove that your wrong, but i can prove that ur arguement does not have enough merritt. What % of the black players in the NBA come from the ghetto? Maybe 60%? (just a wild guess). Now what do people do in the ghetto? Play basketball. Lots of white players could become NBA players if they put in the amount of gym work that a lot of the blacks that made it to the NBA.

Just as mentioned above by a poster, there was a book written about white guys growing up in the ghetto. They had equal opportunities, and not only were the white guys good apparently they were some of the best players on the court. You cant compare black vs white evenly when you have different surroundings. I'm sure 90% of white people just play sports for fun.....and dont espire to become a professional at a given sport. On the contrary, a lot higher % of blacks aspire to become professional athletes....because they are blinded by the media and people. Take a ghetto mixture of white and black guys, and i bet you the white guys do just as good as the blacks. Given equal playing time and opportunity, the racial balance would be very even in the NBA.

If you want to use olympic running as an arguement, for example, then go ahead. That doesnt have as much basis on surroundings. But please dont use the NBA as your arguement, because there are too many factors involved which distort the truth.


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## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>vindicate</b>!
> I don't believe there is one country in Africa that isn't 3rd world.


South Africa is one of the richest countries in the world per capita. You'd be impressed how much money your country can make when it has the largest known diamond and emerald supplies on the planet. 

Egypt, while not a world power, isn't completely destitute, either.

Yes, I know I added nothing to this conversation. By all means, continue. :grinning:


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## cmaher

> Originally posted by <b>pr0wler</b>!
> i cant prove that your wrong, but i can prove that ur arguement does not have enough merritt. What % of the black players in the NBA come from the ghetto? Maybe 60%? (just a wild guess). Now what do people do in the ghetto? Play basketball.
> 
> Just as mentioned above by a poster, there was a book written about white guys growing up in the ghetto. They had equal opportunities, and not only were the white guys good apparently they were some of the best players on the court. You cant compare black vs white evenly when you have different surroundings. I'm sure 90% of white people just play sports for fun.....and dont espire to become a professional at a given sport. On the contrary, a lot higher % of blacks aspire to become professional athletes....because they are blinded by the media and people. Take a ghetto mixture of white and black guys, and i bet you the white guys do just as good as the blacks. Given equal playing time and opportunity, the racial balance would be very even in the NBA.


Are you saying that blacks desire more to be NBA stars than whites? Are you saying black people have a better work ethic and take things more seriously?!?!?

RACIST RACIST RACIST RACIST RACIST...

Anyways, Im just joking. I don't think socio-economic backgrounds really make people better at one thing than other groups of people. They don't have to play basketball to survive. In fact, they would be better off doing well in school. But they choose basketball because they see the black NBA superstars and how they are rich, and they are good at basketball so they choose, unwisely, to pursue it. The reason they are better at basketball is genetics. It is not because they are hardcore and from the "ghetto". If a white man and a black man practice everyday for 4 hours, the black man would probably be better.

I'm not trying to insult you people, but there is much ignorance here. Well, I can't really complain, it's an accurate model or microcosm of America.


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## aznbusyboy

I think black people are more athletic. And that they're athletecism is what helps them excel at sports like basketball. Their athletecism is an advantage.


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## cmaher

I refuse to argue with people who call me a racist and say I overuse stereotypes, when I am presenting legitimate scientific theories and quotes from black athletes.

Why don't some of the naysayers post some credible scientific evidence that white guys and black guys are equally athletic? Why don't you post some evidence that shows poorer people excel at sports? Why not? Because such evidence does not exist.

You can't call me out on using stereotypes, when most of the stereotypes are held to be TRUE on average. You can't then use another stereotype, like people from the ghetto are good at basketball to defend yourself. You can't base your arguement on what you think if you have no evidence or on a "wild guess". You can't base your arguement on what your peers tell you, if they have no evidence. You can't base your arguement on your personal experiences or philosophy because those said experiences or that philosophy is not represntative of the world. It makes for bad arguement and it just further reveals your ignorance. I won't argue with you people or try to help you people see the truth if you won't listen and stick by your politically correct views. I'd go as far as saying some of you seem like you are brainwashed by society.


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## aznbusyboy

Don't black people got more fast twitch muscle fibers or something like that.


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## guilherme.rcf

> Originally posted by <b>vindicate</b>!
> Nicely Said
> but, on the average, according to your economic beliefs, people in Africa are economically in ruins due the 19th-20th century imperalisim. I don't believe there is one country in Africa that isn't 3rd world. Social Darwinism comes in here, Those that can't do the Manual work that is work in developing nations will die, only the ones with the good genes survive.
> However in 1st rate countries such as U.S. if you can't do manual work, you will find work in something your better at, therefor the bad genes will even survive.
> So, MOST, not all africans, are better fit.


These stuff of 3rd and 1st world are bull****.It was created in the end of the 2nd world war, 55 years ago. I live in a "3rd world" country(Brazil) and I had lived in two "1st world" countries (USA, Switzerland).In my point of view the 3 countries are the same, my life didnt get better or worse when I was in US or in the Swiss. Do you really think that a homeless american dude live in a 1st world country? go and ask someone. million of Brazilians live in a "3rd world country", but I and many million else don't. what i mean is if you have money you will always live in a "1st world country" and if you dont you will always live in a "3rd world country" dont matter if you are in Brazil,USA or in Africa. Ah, Olowokandi is an african basketball player that is from a "1st world country", since his father is a diplomat. forget everything you have heard about economic and social factores in sports.


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## DeClercq

One of the things that bugs me about the "Are blacks better athletes?" debate is that most people seem to argue it from an all-or-nothing position. People who believe blacks have natural athletic ability tend to discount that social factors could also play a part. People who think that it's all because of social factors tend to discount that there could be some genetic or physical factors involved. 

However, there's not a single cause of anything in this world -- there are always multiple factors involved. I personally believe that *both* physical and social factors are the reason behind the overrepresentation of blacks in the NBA, NFL, sprinting, etc.


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## pr0wler

well said, i agree with you. You cant blame it all on genetics, but at the same time you cant base an argument that its all on social surroundings.


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## aznbusyboy

Is it true that black people are born with more fast-twitch muscle fibers?

Fast twitch muscles are better for short distance and jumping (explosivenes), but bad for long distance. Which would explain why blacks excel in short distance and jumping, but not long distance.


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## LionOfJudah

No matter what race you are, if your parents are athletic you'll probably have a good chance of being pretty athletic yourself.
Just look at Brent Barry (White guy who dunked from the freethrow line)

All this genetics stuff plays a part but theres no replacement for hard work and dedication.


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## Springsteen

> Originally posted by <b>guilherme.rcf</b>!
> 
> 
> These stuff of 3rd and 1st world are bull****.It was created in the end of the 2nd world war, 55 years ago. I live in a "3rd world" country(Brazil) and I had lived in two "1st world" countries (USA, Switzerland).In my point of view the 3 countries are the same, my life didnt get better or worse when I was in US or in the Swiss. Do you really think that a homeless american dude live in a 1st world country? go and ask someone. million of Brazilians live in a "3rd world country", but I and many million else don't. what i mean is if you have money you will always live in a "1st world country" and if you dont you will always live in a "3rd world country" dont matter if you are in Brazil,USA or in Africa. Ah, Olowokandi is an african basketball player that is from a "1st world country", since his father is a diplomat. forget everything you have heard about economic and social factores in sports.



It's more of a genaralized rating. More like, in 3rd world countries, there are more poor people then there are rich people. Likely if you have a computer you are at least of middle class or upper middle class status, so you wouldn't notice a huge difference if you moved between all of these countries. You'd still have equal access to healthcare and schools etc. etc. The point of the rankings is that in 3rd world countries, the really destitute people are present in more numbers, and that they are less likely to be able to rise above this standing (whereas, you could argue that in the US, there are systems in place, where a homeless person could, if they were of sound mind, and had a desire, could rise above their station in life). Also, the 3rd world status has to do with influence around the world.

It's a pretty legitimate system. And it makes sense if you actually think about it.

As for your Olowokandi analogy...I'm not clear. But I'm sure that anytime a person has mentioned socio-economic factors they would conceed that every individual is different. Living in Chad, one of the poorest countries in the world, doesn't neccessarily mean you have to be poor. But this being said, socio-economic factors shouldnt' be minimized.


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## pharcyde

> Originally posted by <b>vindicate</b>!
> Your claiming visionary234 theory is flase, i believe its very true. But you beating 5 RANDOM black people doesn't mean anything. Look by the performance on NBA charts. See how often a white guy shows up on Highest Scoring or Highest FG %.


Actually, his point is extremely valid. Genetics apply to everyone, not just professional athletes. Personally I believe genetics play a part, but so do many, many other factors, too many to determine on this site which plays the largest role.

He provided an example of five random white kids playing against five random black kids. The level of athleticism wasn't much different between the two groups, which shows that athleticism is most likely determined by a lot of things other than simply genetics.


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## aznbusyboy

> Originally posted by <b>pharcyde</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, his point is extremely valid. Genetics apply to everyone, not just professional athletes. Personally I believe genetics play a part, but so do many, many other factors, too many to determine on this site which plays the largest role.
> 
> He provided an example of five random white kids playing against five random black kids. The level of athleticism wasn't much different between the two groups, which shows that athleticism is most likely determined by a lot of things other than simply genetics.


explain track and field being dominated by blacks than.


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## guilherme.rcf

> Originally posted by <b>aznbusyboy</b>!
> 
> 
> explain track and field being dominated by blacks than.


its 50/50. a greek guy won the 200mts in the last olympic games, a english guy got the world record in tripe-jump(?)... etc...


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## aznbusyboy

> Originally posted by <b>guilherme.rcf</b>!
> 
> 
> its 50/50. a greek guy won the 200mts in the last olympic games, a english guy got the world record in tripe-jump(?)... etc...



but those are just 2 general cases. I wouldn't call the domination of blacks in track a 50/50 chance. The fastest guy in the world is black. Most top short distance runners are black same w/jumpers.


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## waitandsee

Can somebody answer my questions, because if you can not then your theory is wrong.Why does a small country like Yugoslavia produce so many good basketball players? The ratio is much bigger then in the US does it mean Yugos are the most athletic? Why does Americans loose one basketball tournament after the other? I do not want to hear that WC was an accident, because it is a trend. Americans used to dominated every tournament in every age. Now they are loosing in all different age groups.


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## pharcyde

> Originally posted by <b>aznbusyboy</b>!
> 
> 
> explain track and field being dominated by blacks than.


I didn't say he was right, I said his point should be taken into consideration, which is different. But after reading a few more of his posts in this thread I don't know if I still believe that. When I made that post I was under the assumption that the two groups of players had similar athletic skills, but that might not have been the case.

As for most sprinters/jumpers being black, that's true. But I personally believe a lot of very good white athletes never pursue athletics because they don't grow up dreaming about it as much and grow up in an environment where they're almost taught, indirectly, that they can't do it, and I'm one of them. 

My dad was "5-11" (although I'm 5-10.5 and he's at least 2 inches shorter than me and he's not old enough to have shrunk yet, so really he's like 5-8) and was about an inch away from dunking in high school (he couldn't palm the ball, so it was harder), which means he probably had a vertical of about 35 inches at least. But I grew up being told by teachers and my parents that I wouldn't ever make it in the NBA so I shouldn't try. Now, at 17, after two years out of basketball, I'm finally realizing that I have a lot of natural athleticism that I just never tapped into. It'll take some work to develop it, but it's there. Does this mean athleticism isn't related to genetics, racial genetics in particular? Of course not. But I do think the gap between natural ability and race is somewhat exaggerated by a lot of people.


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## waitandsee

The Greek guy was the first white man to win after 20 years. When he won the Olympics he was 27 years old. Before he could not win it. The thing that helped him to win was a new training method. He trained with a new coach. His coach went to America to learn how they train their athletes and he was astonished. He trained with all the American methods plus some Russian methods and it helped him to win the Olympics. The thing is American training methods are much superior. Without a change in his training methods, he would not win the Olympics.


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## aznbusyboy

But i don't think the Greek guy completeley throws out the whole black vs. white debate. He won the Olympics 200 meter. One guy doesn't throw away a whole debate. Not to mention the fact that Maurice Green (then the fastest man alive) and Johnson (the record holder) didn't run the 200 either. And track and field used to be majorly white back in the day; until blacks started entering. I don't believe its that much socially to do with it. Sure blacks may struggle in the world but how does that explain athletecism. Just because thay may play more basketball doesn't explain why they should be faster or jump higher.


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## urwhatueati8god

> Originally posted by <b>visionary432</b>!
> This post is not meant to be racist, I am white myself. Genetically, black men are predisposed to being more athletic than white men. That is why you do not see SUPER athletic white players in the league, but there are many athletic black players. The traditional liberal answer points the finger at social factors. However, if you study the matter physiologically, it has to be genetic. West Africans are great at sprinting and jumping, while east africans are great at long distance running. Their muscles contain a higher proportion of fast-twitch fibres than do whites and africans. Black men, on average, have higher levels of certain enzymes that are tied with athleticism. Africans have developed this athleticism as an adaptation to surroundings. In the past, African families had many children and left them independent. The early ability of black children to be independent physically allowed the mother to have more children. As such, only the athletic children survived in Africa. White europeans did not have to be athletic because they were nurtured by their parents. Even the non-athletic survived. Everyone knows that black people are genetically predisposed to being more athletic. That is why it comes as a surprise when we see an athletic white guy; it is an anomoly. Because of this, i think people become skeptical of guys like Chris Kaman and Kirk Hinrich. When it comes to black people, there isnt as much skepticism about athleticism. White guys have to battle athleticism to get good, unlike black athletes. This is why white players are often percieved to be busts. It's just the way it is.


The entire thing is true however, Kaman probably will be a bust, however Hinrich relies on his intellegence, and we know where that got John Stockton. The thing is, one of these enzymes that white people have less of is testosterone, often making them more sensible when it comes to the passing and occasionally shooting game. This is why urban, suburban, and rural basketball are all so different. All together, I wouldn't go as far as to say one is more athletic than the other, the styles of play are just completely different. Case in point, Brent Barry became much better when he started shooting the ball instead of trying to slash the defense. White people are generally more balanced as well, case in point, hockey, gymnastics. Hinrich will be good. Speaking of John Stockton, dyk his hands are almost the same size as Shaq's? Just a sidenote.


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## pharcyde

> Originally posted by <b>cmaher</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you saying that blacks desire more to be NBA stars than whites? Are you saying black people have a better work ethic and take things more seriously?!?!?
> 
> RACIST RACIST RACIST RACIST RACIST...
> 
> Anyways, Im just joking. I don't think socio-economic backgrounds really make people better at one thing than other groups of people. They don't have to play basketball to survive. In fact, they would be better off doing well in school. But they choose basketball because they see the black NBA superstars and how they are rich, and they are good at basketball so they choose, unwisely, to pursue it. The reason they are better at basketball is genetics. It is not because they are hardcore and from the "ghetto". If a white man and a black man practice everyday for 4 hours, the black man would probably be better.
> 
> I'm not trying to insult you people, but there is much ignorance here. Well, I can't really complain, it's an accurate model or microcosm of America.


Seems like there's a lot of ignorance here on your part, as well. You say it's scientific fact, yet all you can come up with is that the NBA and other sports are black dominated. That's not genetic fact. If it's true that science can prove it, well then provide some links, quote, anything other than professional numbers.

It's also quite ignorant of you to say that social environment in the inner cities does not play a part at all in this discussion. If you haven't grown up there then you can't assume you know what they're thinking. Yeah, you and I know they'd be better off going to school, but very few of them see that. Inner city high schools are often worthless. Most of the kids there can't afford college. Many kids assume they'll live and die in the projects unless they can get out, and the only people they see getting out are athletes and musicians, so that's what they pursue. It is much more complicated than you seem to assume it is. The impact of this extra desire, which is caused by their social environment, cannot be measured like a vertical jump. Suburban environments don't push kids to succeed in the same way.

Race may play a part (and almost certainly does, but can't be proven 100%) but it is far from the only thing that makes a great athlete a great athlete.


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## pharcyde

> Originally posted by <b>cmaher</b>!
> I refuse to argue with people who call me a racist and say I overuse stereotypes, when I am presenting legitimate scientific theories and quotes from black athletes.
> 
> Why don't some of the naysayers post some credible scientific evidence that white guys and black guys are equally athletic? Why don't you post some evidence that shows poorer people excel at sports? Why not? Because such evidence does not exist.
> 
> You can't call me out on using stereotypes, when most of the stereotypes are held to be TRUE on average. You can't then use another stereotype, like people from the ghetto are good at basketball to defend yourself. You can't base your arguement on what you think if you have no evidence or on a "wild guess". You can't base your arguement on what your peers tell you, if they have no evidence. You can't base your arguement on your personal experiences or philosophy because those said experiences or that philosophy is not represntative of the world. It makes for bad arguement and it just further reveals your ignorance. I won't argue with you people or try to help you people see the truth if you won't listen and stick by your politically correct views. I'd go as far as saying some of you seem like you are brainwashed by society.


Evidence has been provided, but you discredit it, although it's not much different from what you post. The four white kids who grew up in the ghetto is a great example of four random white kids who all happened to develop into great athletes when exposed to a similar environment as many of the great black athletes.

I also don't understand why you are so persistant in this thread. You can't prove anything any better than anyone else has, and other than a few quotes and a few percentages you haven't shown anything to back you up. Half your posts are attempts to tell other people they're wrong, not prove that you are right.

If you are so sure that you're correct, why not disprove (instead of just telling us that it's wrong) the theory that social environment has an effect on athleticism? Most likely you can't (although I'm sure you could find many examples of athletic black guys who grew up in good families, but you can't use those since you won't let the exact same types of evidence be used against you).


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## pharcyde

> Originally posted by <b>aznbusyboy</b>!
> But i don't think the Greek guy completeley throws out the whole black vs. white debate. He won the Olympics 200 meter. One guy doesn't throw away a whole debate. Not to mention the fact that Maurice Green (then the fastest man alive) and Johnson (the record holder) didn't run the 200 either. And track and field used to be majorly white back in the day; until blacks started entering. I don't believe its that much socially to do with it. Sure blacks may struggle in the world but how does that explain athletecism. Just because thay may play more basketball doesn't explain why they should be faster or jump higher.


The fact that as blacks were allowed in athletics they tended to dominate athletically doesn't prove anything. At the time, blacks in America were in even worse position socially and economically than today. They had something to prove, while whites were content. That's still present today, to an extent, white conentment. And being poor and feeling a need to prove something (often athletically) gives a person more opportunity to practice, and the more a person is active the better shape they'll be in.


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## lw32

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> South Africa is one of the richest countries in the world per capita. You'd be impressed how much money your country can make when it has the largest known diamond and emerald supplies on the planet.
> 
> Egypt, while not a world power, isn't completely destitute, either.
> 
> Yes, I know I added nothing to this conversation. By all means, continue. :grinning:


Actually, just to add to your useless post South Africa is not the largest diamond producer in the world but it did produce the biggest diamond I believe! Botswana is actually the biggest diamond producer in the world. With Belgium as the biggest Importer and exporter of diamonds. Just in case anyone ever needs a diamond...


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## Tom

ya know...who gives a gosh darn about this whole subject...get over it


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## cmaher

I can see people starting to come to their senses.

Black people are more athletic than white people on average. That is a fact. Genetics plays a huge role in this, and the biggest role. Socia-Economic conditions may play a part, so may culture and the environment, but genetics is the key.

Again, one guy does not prove a theory wrong. No one said that a black man will be better than 100% of white basketball players. One man proves nothing, you can't say, well there's this freak of nature white guy who won the 200 meter when the top two runners, who were black, did not run. You can't say because Larry Bird won some rings and mvps in the NBA that there is no black athletic superiority. Four gifted white kids, who happened to grow up in the ghetto, beating four random black kids at basketball means nothing. Your environment does not rewrite your DNA. Growing up in the ghetto does not make you tall, it does not make you jump high, it does not make you run faster, and it does not make you physically superior to anyone who did not grow up in the ghetto. They are exceptions, anomolies. They are individuals. They do not represent their entire race.

We should not see someones race and their race alone when looking at a person, sadly, that is the first thing we see usually, or their sex. We should treat people as individuals, but we cannot say racial differences don't exist because we would be lying to ourselves. We cannot act as if the only difference between races are cosmetic, because it simply isn't true. These differences don't really matter in everyday life, but they matter at the Olypmic level or at the NBA level. That is why black athletic dominance is relevant to this forum.


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## pharcyde

> Originally posted by <b>cmaher</b>!
> Your environment does not rewrite your DNA.


No, it doesn't, and no one said it did. What your environment does is help you fulfill your potential as an athlete (or anything else, if that's what your environment drives you to become). A person who gives up the pursuit of a dream before high school will probably not achieve that dream, and many, if not most white kids in America give up the dream of playing in the NBA before they ever get to high school. Because of this I strongly believe that many of them do not reach their full athletic potential. I guess what I'm saying is being poor doesn't make you a better athlete, being well off just makes you a worse one.


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## Dabears

As for the Yugoslavians beating the Americans, that has everything to do with surroundings and very little to do with athleticism.

The Yugos have an entirely different approach to basketball. Everyone begins as a point guard, and then they move to different positions as they get older, but greater emphasis is put on passing and shooting rahter than scoring and showboating. This results in two things. First, they have a size advantage. In the USA, someone who is 6'7" usually plays PF or SF, sometimes SG. In Yugoslavia, someone at 6'7" will probably play SG, or a bit of PG (see all of the tall Euro PGs coming in the draft). Someone who is 6'9 or 6'10 like Stojakovic or Radmanovic will play SF, and be a great shooter. 
The other effect that the early PG teachings has is that they play a more team oriented game, which helps when the game is close, or the defense picks up. Every player on the USA team wanted to be the main scorer, and it backfired big time.

There is the explanation for the Euros beating the Americans, but again, the emphasis is on shooting and TEAMwork, not athleticism.


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## DeClercq

> Originally posted by <b>Dabears</b>!
> As for the Yugoslavians beating the Americans, that has everything to do with surroundings and very little to do with athleticism.
> 
> The Yugos have an entirely different approach to basketball. Everyone begins as a point guard, and then they move to different positions as they get older, but greater emphasis is put on passing and shooting rahter than scoring and showboating. This results in two things. First, they have a size advantage.


They may also have a size advantage in general -- my mom is an English teacher for refugees, and she tells me that her students from the former Yugoslavia area are quite tall, almost always taller than the average American. So, they may have a taller pool of potential players to choose from than most countries.


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## Blackego

> Originally posted by <b>cmaher</b>!
> It is not like I am saying there are no good white basketball players. It is not like I am saying there are no athletic white men. Im just saying that there will be more athletes and more people suited for basketball in a group of 100 black men than in a group of 100 white men. I'm not saying that the African race is superior to other races, in fact, I dislike, even hate, African-American hip hop culture and its values and what it teaches. I think African-Americans, as a group, need to give more of a collective effort and emphasis on their education and their lifestyle. I don't like black people more than white people or vice versa. I am not a racist. I am a realist. I am a scientist (not in profession).


What the hell do you know about Black people? Have you ever walked in a black mans shoes? Have you ever been harassed by the police because of your skin color? You don't know the kind of struggle US black men/boys go thru? Your not a realist nor are you a scientist..<strike>Your just ignorant. </strike>


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## cmaher

> Originally posted by <b>Blackego</b>!
> 
> 
> What the hell do you know about Black people? Have you ever walked in a black mans shoes? Have you ever been harassed by the police because of your skin color? You don't know the kind of struggle US black men/boys go thru? Your not a realist nor are you a scientist..<strike>Your just ignorant.</strike>


I never claimed to know much about black culture or what it is like to be a black person. Not being black does not remove all authority of mine to know something about black people and to talk about genetics and the differences between white people and black people.

Lose the condescending tone, or disprove me. <font color=blue>(That is a flat out confrontational sentence. Please refrain. Thanks. TheRifleman.</font>

I'm sure you have to deal with stereotypes, but don't expect me to feel sympathetic. We all deal with stereotypes. 

Boo hoo! Life is unfair. People see you as a drug dealer and a thug. People see me as a sheltered white boy living in surbubia. I deal with it. You race has gained that reputation. 

Personally, I think African-Americans, as a group, need to do a lot of work. They have gained this reputation, and now they must remove it. <strike>Maybe you wouldn't face racism if your race didn't account for half the people in the prison system when people of your race make up merely 10% of the population. It's not my fault, don't get angry at me, why aren't you angry at your peers. It is people of your race, "US" as you say, that create this bad reputation and negative stereotype. Yell at them. Talk down to them. Don't get condescending with me.</strike>(again - highly confrontational!!)


Ever wonder why, say, Asian people don't get pulled over by cops because of the way they look, because they are the "model minority", they have very low crime rates and do well in school. They were onced basically enslaved and harassed. <strike> They have had laws written solely to "put them down". But they, unlike people of your race, have overcome this reputation and have become better Americans than white people themselves.</strike> 

I'll probably get banned for this post because you are black and I am white and I am saying something negative about your race, and that is a big NO NO in today's society, but I don't care.<font color=blue>Nobody gets banned for having an opinion - they get banned for REPEATEDLY ignoring the RULES of the site!!)</font> <strike>Your ethnic group needs to get its act together and everyone knows it. Its not the white man keeping you down, for the most part, its you keeping yourselves down. Tell your peers to stop criminal activity, stop using drugs, and to do well in school, educate themselves, and work hard. Maybe then, you wont have to deal with racism and negative stereotypes.</strike>

Don't label me as a racist and calm down. I am simply speaking what I believe and judge to be the truth. Im excercising my right to think for myself and to express myself. Should I be outlawed from speaking "negatively" about black people because your people suffered from racism and slavery? I think black people are physically superior to white people. Am I wrong? I doubt it. Why do you have to pull negative stereotypes and racism into this thread?


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## Schmidty

I can't believe that this abortion of a thread is still thriving. I guess that says a lot about the world today.


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## HallOfFamer

I do think the thread starters theory is true. Not only in basketball. Lets look at football for example where need to be really athletic to play.

Look at the QB situation. Most of the scrambling QB's are black. The QB's who prefer to stay in the pocket are white.
Lets take a look at the other positions where athleticism is absolutley needed to succeed. RB? Can someone name me one starting white RB in the NFL? How about WR? There are some guys like Wayne Chrebet and a handful of others, but around 90% of the WR's in the NFL are black.

Very interesting topic. Lets keep it going.


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## -33-

honestly this argument is pointless and could go on forever...

you cant put facts on the table b/c there are none--everything is going to be opinion based which just makes a huge argument of peoples ideals

no matter what you guys say--i'm not gonna agree that blacks have any advantage on a white player--its not true, never will be


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## HallOfFamer

edit.


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## trueorfalse

I think a lot of people do not really get this topic.

A higher percentage of black people (most from the former west africa), than whites, in the US have what might be called "short" muscle fibers ie more explosive muscles. 
That does not make them better basketball players, only more athletically gifted.
Then comes socio-economical factors in.
Ie, physical talent only gets a basketball player so far.

When it comes to the whole IQ thing it just makes me very ill at ease, research has shown that between 95 and 99% of the whole "intelligence thing" comes from upbringing/environment.


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## BCH

And this thread is now done, as it has run its course.


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