# Chad Ford's Mock Thread As Of 6/2/08 Knicks Taking: D.J. Augustin



## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

> The Knicks want a lead guard who can push the ball and hit an open jumper. But if Rose, Mayo and Bayless are off the board, they'll have a tough choice to make.
> I had Danilo Gallinari here in the first two versions of this mock draft, thanks to his Italian ties with Mike D'Antoni.
> 
> *However, a Suns source told me that D'Antoni wasn't a huge fan of Gallinari when he was shown some tape during the season, which has made me seriously reconsider that forecast.*
> ...


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=MockDraft-080602

Gross, you said we need a playmaker a pass first gurard, what you think of this new rumor selection? What do the rest of you guys think?


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

> DraftExpress: Is there any player in the NBA that you try to model yourself after?
> 
> D.J. Augustin: Offensively I try to play like Steve Nash; he has a lot of crafty shots he gets off against bigger guys. That’s going to be my main thing; I have to learn to do that.
> 
> ...


www.draftexpress.com


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## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

I truly believe that the value of the 6th pick to the 11th pick are the same. Unless OJ Mayo is still on the board then I would want to trade down and perhaps grab a guy like Augustin. If I am the Knicks, I hope we do not pursue our next Knick due to need. I hope they take Augustin because he is the best available player. 

The problem with many GMs around the NBA is that they are willing to shell out big money to tier 2 stars rather than wait for the next crop of FA. I hope the Knicks don't do that with Augustin and say, okay he is plan B, we will take him for the 6th pick. I would call up the Nets and ask if they want to do the 10th and 21st pick for our 6th. I think it will give the Nets an intriguing spot to call up the Nuggets and see if they are interested with the 6th pick. But thats just an extension of the old rumor.

To go back with the problems with the GMs, they are too impatient as well as the fans. I hope Walsh undestands this. When some teams have cap room and couldn't get the player they wanted, they turn around and sign players that do not deserve the contract. Remember Eddie Robinson? Brian Grant? Dale Davis? Antonio Davis? Bobby Simmons? Shawn Bradley? 

Now using that logic with the draft, i hope they take Augustin because he is high on their boards not because he is a need player. We have so many holes that we do not have theluxury to take a "need" player. 

If Augustin, is the playmaker he is, then I would put him no.2 ahead of Mayo and Bayless. I haven't watch many Longhorns's games so I won't give an evaluation. USSkittyhawk, if you say he is a playmaker that looks for open teammates and knows how to hit open shots then I'm all for him. If you tell me he is a smaller version of Derrick Rose, then I am all for him. Unfortunately I haven't watch enough games of his to say "yeah i like him". That would be a lie 

Again, this year the 6th pick has almost the same value as the 9th-11th pick. I would love for the Knicks to trade down and get the 10th and 21st. For the 21st, I am hoping for Donte Greene, Joe Alexander (yeah right), or Chase Budinger. All three has great athleticsm, has the potential to play above average defense. The most raw and have the highest ceiling is Greene then Budinger and Alexander. 

This year's draft and next year as well, we will need to draft best available player.


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## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

true that 3~12 pretty much have the same value.

if the knicks dont take him at #6, i'm betting my dough that the clippers and pacers and kings are lining up to pick him up.

#6 isnt a reach for a PG like a augustin.


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## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

USSKittyHawk said:


> www.draftexpress.com


Sounds like a terrific kid. If he is trying to emulate Nash then I believe he could be a very good point guard. We must understand that the NBA is in a huge transition. We are seeing it with our very own eyes. Augustin might be that new generation PG. Compare the mid 90s draft players to now...

How many "true" centers that can work in the blocks these days? 

How many 6'10 PFs that plays behind their back most of the time? 

The Steve Nash effect is showing the rewards for teams like New Orleans and Utah.

Teams are basically saying... hey if there aren't any 7 foot centers like Shaq and he is a once in a lifetime player then we may as well go with smaller players that can run up and down the floor and create havoc. 

If Augustin is what they say he is and wants to emulate Steve Nash. I would love to trade down and grab him. If the knicks feel confident that he is a pass first PG that can really lead this team, then I will have no problems at all.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Knock on Augustin is that he is small*

And really, it is a concern. He is much smaller than Nash, so even if he tries to emulate him, he is giving up 3 inches. I like him, too, but 6 is a real reach. I disagree that 6-12 or so are even.


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## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

*Re: Knock on Augustin is that he is small*



alphaorange said:


> And really, it is a concern. He is much smaller than Nash, so even if he tries to emulate him, he is giving up 3 inches. I like him, too, but 6 is a real reach. I disagree that 6-12 or so are even.


Really? Well I believe 6-11 are the same value. Anthony Randolph has a small chance to be drafted by Memphis, if not he can slip down to 11. This goes the same with Lopez if he refuses Minnesota's workout invitation. Eric Gordon is value around 7-11. Kevin Love is going anywhere between 3-10. 

The tiers I have right now is...

Beasley and Rose = cream of the crop

OJ Mayo = 2nd tier but has character issues

Then a bunch of guys who belongs here which had me valuing the picks the same from 6-11
Lopez
Love
Bayless
A. Randolph
Eric Gordon
D. Gallinari

-------
Outside looking in...

DJ Augustin
Russel Westbrook
Joe Alexander
DeAndre Jordan

Please note that these players aren't in order. Or i'm slottng them by draft needs, best available and so on.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*I just don't share your opinion*

These rankings are still based on potential. Seems nobody has learned their lesson yet. Green is a perfect example. Gms see his size and shooting skills and envision him as a Lewis type. The trouble is he has done NOTHING to indicate this as of yet. I watched every game he played this year and while I thought he was going to blow up early, it never happened. He had horrible shot selection, played almost non-existent defense, lacked handle and passing, and considering the weight program available, lacks motivation and work ethic. That being said, he's a real good KID. It is very difficult anymore because these guys are so young you really have no idea where they will end up. they all have the physical tools, it is a question of the intangibles and that is much harder to gage. Augustin is simply short. If he is 6'3, he goes top 3.

Regarding Mayo, there was zero indication that he had an attitude problem this year. Floyd speaks very highly of him and there is NO questioning his work ethic and Bball IQ. Its hard to blame a KID for having an ego problem when he has been the man since 14 or 15. He seems to have moved on and it simply would not surprise me to see him displace one of the two "top' guys. You forget that he was the consensus #1 pick before Beasley and Rose blew up. The guy had a great year but it could not ever have been great enough to silence critics. On top of all that, the guy SHUT DOWN Rose and Bayless head to head. How many guys play that kind of defense if the are primadonnas? That young man has IT, and I'd take him in a heartbeat. I believe he could easily be a pass first guy. His career has mirrored LeBron's basketballwise and he has shown himself to be quite the team guy. Give me a PG and don't hold the Mayo.


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## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

*Re: I just don't share your opinion*



alphaorange said:


> These rankings are still based on potential. Seems nobody has learned their lesson yet. Green is a perfect example. Gms see his size and shooting skills and envision him as a Lewis type. The trouble is he has done NOTHING to indicate this as of yet. I watched every game he played this year and while I thought he was going to blow up early, it never happened. He had horrible shot selection, played almost non-existent defense, lacked handle and passing, and considering the weight program available, lacks motivation and work ethic. That being said, he's a real good KID. It is very difficult anymore because these guys are so young you really have no idea where they will end up. they all have the physical tools, it is a question of the intangibles and that is much harder to gage. Augustin is simply short. If he is 6'3, he goes top 3.
> 
> Regarding Mayo, there was zero indication that he had an attitude problem this year. Floyd speaks very highly of him and there is NO questioning his work ethic and Bball IQ. Its hard to blame a KID for having an ego problem when he has been the man since 14 or 15. He seems to have moved on and it simply would not surprise me to see him displace one of the two "top' guys. You forget that he was the consensus #1 pick before Beasley and Rose blew up. The guy had a great year but it could not ever have been great enough to silence critics. On top of all that, the guy SHUT DOWN Rose and Bayless head to head. How many guys play that kind of defense if the are primadonnas? That young man has IT, and I'd take him in a heartbeat. I believe he could easily be a pass first guy. His career has mirrored LeBron's basketballwise and he has shown himself to be quite the team guy. Give me a PG and don't hold the Mayo.


Sorry but do you mean Gerald Green or Donte Greene? I'm guessing Gerald Green. I remember Gerald Green's scouting report, they said he was uber athletic, can fly out of the arena, doesn't have a great jump shot, is still raw and this is coming out of high school. What did you expect from a player who came out of high school with an ego like that?

I also read that a few Twolve fans think he is an egomaniac. He barks while he is on the bench, telling the coach to put him in. He plays lackluster defense so forth and so on. You're right that Green has been a bust until now. 

But his scouting report says what he is and can be. Unfortunately his ceiling was at his highest in high school. And what he is now in the NBA is... super athletic, lackluster defense with no jumper. Tell me what is the difference between the old scouting report and this one? Nothing except all scouts feel that they will improve their game as they get older. 

-------

Well, all draft picks are evaluated as potential. Thanks to David Stern and placing a minimum age and at least 1 year in college/post HS, the scouts can evaluate them better than they were in High school Which is why Gerald Green and a slew of other HSers scouting report were completely off the boat.

-------

As for Mayo, yes he was the consensus no.1 throughout high school. He was the Lebron James in high school. The savior of high school basketball. With the publicity he has gotten, he should have been more careful choosing who he wants to hang out with. Like I said, there have been many "incidents" around him. Doesn't neccesarily means, it was him. The more negative "incidents" because of who he hangs out with makes you wonder what kind of judgement he chooses with his entourage and friends. If the stench is in that group, shouldn't you leave that group rather than have this unblinking loyalty? Obviously it has affected OJ's image.

His youtube Technical fouls, him throwing the ball to the stand, the weird referee who flopped, the speculated signing with USC due to Sonny Voccaro, the tickets he got as a gift, and now this. I could understand the high school stuff but if negative press keeps following you, shouldn't OJ tell himself that he needs a new group of friends and just lay low for a bit? 

I never discounted his skills and talent. I am only worry about him being a "me-first" point guard in the mold of Iverson, Marbury and others have poison a team. The last thing I want to see is the next Marbury who doesn't look for open teammates and is in NYC for endorsements. 

There is a reason why Rose is rated higher? The success of Steve Nash, Deron Williams and Chris Paul. In any draft during the mid 90s to 2005, OJ mayo would be rated higher. I think many teams view him as the mold of Iverson. Is that bad? No, definitely not. The new era calls for point guards to drive hard to the basket (Mayo has this), take good perimeter shots (Mayo has this), know when to take a shot (iffy on this) and knows how to find open teammates (iffy on this as well). 

If OJ Mayo is there, I would draft him. I would take the best available player at this point. The knicks do not have a luxury to nitpick on needs. If he is the best player on the board then you take him. But let it be known, D'antoni's offense needs to be run by smart people and understanding the pick and roll/ pick and pop.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: I just don't share your opinion*



thatsnotgross said:


> Sorry but do you mean Gerald Green or Donte Greene? I'm guessing Gerald Green. I remember Gerald Green's scouting report, they said he was uber athletic, can fly out of the arena, doesn't have a great jump shot, is still raw and this is coming out of high school. What did you expect from a player who came out of high school with an ego like that?
> 
> I also read that a few Twolve fans think he is an egomaniac. He barks while he is on the bench, telling the coach to put him in. He plays lackluster defense so forth and so on. You're right that Green has been a bust until now.
> 
> ...



Am I the only person that see's Mayo as being a top tier 2 guard in the NBA. He certainly has the ability to run a team from the point but so does Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady and Dwayne Wade. I see him as being in the mold of the later two (since no one can touch Kobe) and being an excellent fit in any type of offense. I'm with dog on this one that if he's available, we should take him. I'd even recommend looking to trade up to take him, entourage or not.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

thatsnotgross said:


> Sounds like a terrific kid. If he is trying to emulate Nash then I believe he could be a very good point guard. We must understand that the NBA is in a huge transition. We are seeing it with our very own eyes. Augustin might be that new generation PG. Compare the mid 90s draft players to now...
> 
> How many "true" centers that can work in the blocks these days?
> 
> ...


Problem... if Augustin models his play after Steve Nash, does that mean he models his defensive exactly like that of Nash too?!?!


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Twinkiefoot*

I also really want OJ. The kid does not seem to be a bad guy at all. The stuff that happened with his recruitment, etc, happens to a ton of kids. We usually just don't hear about it until years later. 

And the Green I was talking about is Donte.

For all the folks clamoring for Anthony Randolph and others like him, we need to stop drafting guys that are just great athletes. I'd like to have someone tell me 3 guys that were not decent Bball players but were gifted athletically that turned into stars. D Howard and T Chandler? Curry? Most guys like that just don't pan out. Chandler is an exception because of his size and Josh Smith is the only other one that really comes to mind. He also grew 2 inches and put on some serious muscle. Sort of a sobering thought, isn't it?


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Twinkiefoot*



alphaorange said:


> I also really want OJ. The kid does not seem to be a bad guy at all. The stuff that happened with his recruitment, etc, happens to a ton of kids. We usually just don't hear about it until years later.
> 
> And the Green I was talking about is Donte.
> 
> For all the folks clamoring for Anthony Randolph and others like him, we need to stop drafting guys that are just great athletes. I'd like to have someone tell me 3 guys that were not decent Bball players but were gifted athletically that turned into stars. D Howard and T Chandler? Curry? Most guys like that just don't pan out. Chandler is an exception because of his size and Josh Smith is the only other one that really comes to mind. He also grew 2 inches and put on some serious muscle. Sort of a sobering thought, isn't it?


Garnett, Jermaine O'neal, Amare Stoudamire, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant and the list goes on. I like Randolph because of the skills he possesses as well as the mismatches he creates. He's one of those types of players that actually allow us to put Curry into the franchise player role. Randolph is an excellent off the ball shot blocker and on ball defender which should help tremendously with Curry's porous defense. Offensively, Randolph is a ball mover which definately helps considering how the offense tends to become very one on one. 

OJ Mayo is still my guy but I doubt he'll drop to us considering how talented he is. These "character" issues are not serious enough for me to think he'll drop down 3 draft spots. This is why I'm starting to warm up to the idea of adding Randolph.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

I really do not like the idea of using our pick on an undersized PG. As much as talent should be the most important thing when evaluating a player, raw physical tools can be just as important and even override talent. 

Take Andre Barrett for example. Coming out of college, I felt he was a pretty good player whose skills was on a NBA level. I think he's certainly better than the 3rd PG on a team or free agent fodder but his height hurts his game emmensely. Although Augustin is a better player obviously, he'll have these same issues because he's not otherworldly athletic like a TJ Ford. I'd say pass unless we trade down.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Twinkie, please.....*

Amare' was absolutely dominant in almost all "big man" phases save for shooting. Did you see him play? He was a monster. The ONLY reason he slipped was because a lot of GMs were worried he wouldn't escape his bad family situation. Garnett was skilled as hell and was considered one of the few HS guys that could come in right away and play. The weren't doubts. Kobe was unbelievable in HS...he had it all...same with McGrady. These guys all knew how to play ball. Their skill level was the opposite of Randolphs. He is beyond raw and they were excellent. I'll give you JO but it makes my point. He is the only one you listed that was drafted on his physical ability alone. ALL those other guys had serious game.

Actually, I'm not entirely sure O'Neal is a good example for your case either. I seem to recollect that he was a stud who simply needed to get bigger..which is not to say he was a finished product, only that he was skilled at more than running, jumping, and dunking.


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## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

And Felipe Lopez? Jonathan Bender? and all the other HS gifted athletes?

Obviously, some people would rather post a reply than read what I write. If OJ Mayo is available, then I don't see how the Knicks can not take him. Should I say it again or rephrase my statement to the point where its big and bold? 

The other statement you didn't read is that the negativity that is drawn to him and NOT at him is seen to have bad judgement with his friends. If there is continuity of negative press with his friends then you wouldn't leave them? Yes he has been untouched by this but if he keeps the same people around him then a more chance something will happen. 

But you might twist my words around and think I'm purely attacking him. I am not. His character issues only comes into question when his entourage keeps positioning themselves to get a fat paycheck from him.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*I read your post*

You are saying that you don't trust Mayo because of the issues that have seemed to follow him. I just explained why they were no biggie to me after doing some reading. Bender was far from an unskilled big man...injuries did him in. Lopez was a bum that never even lived up to his hype at St johns. If you are trying to refute my post about drafting guys on physical potential, you failed to be successful. If you were trying to agree, you succeeded.
I'll try to be more clear......I don't give a rat's butt about athletically gifted...we have a team of them. I want friggin' ball players that know how to do what has to be done..and at the right time..at the right place, etc. I really don't care if the guy fills the lane like Kobe if he shoots like Howard.


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## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

Why should I trust Mayo when negativity follows him? If the stench follows, then something smells in his camp. You may keep disregarding the allegations but at the end of the day, he is associated with it.

You think the Knicks will bypass character issues (it may not be him BUT MORE of his entourage) after going through Crackhead Marbury? Or Jailblazer Randolph?

The knicks have a treasure trove of players that do not play teamball. Anyone sees Mayo as a pass first PG or willing to share the rock? He dominates the ball, this isn't D'antoni's way to play. If he defers to his teammates then I won't have a problem with him.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: Twinkie, please.....*



alphaorange said:


> Amare' was absolutely dominant in almost all "big man" phases save for shooting. Did you see him play? He was a monster. The ONLY reason he slipped was because a lot of GMs were worried he wouldn't escape his bad family situation. Garnett was skilled as hell and was considered one of the few HS guys that could come in right away and play. The weren't doubts. Kobe was unbelievable in HS...he had it all...same with McGrady. These guys all knew how to play ball. Their skill level was the opposite of Randolphs. He is beyond raw and they were excellent. I'll give you JO but it makes my point. He is the only one you listed that was drafted on his physical ability alone. ALL those other guys had serious game.
> 
> Actually, I'm not entirely sure O'Neal is a good example for your case either. I seem to recollect that he was a stud who simply needed to get bigger..which is not to say he was a finished product, only that he was skilled at more than running, jumping, and dunking.



let's remember, all these hs busts ie kwame brown were considered incredibly skilled as well.......it's just that when these "incredibly skilled" players go away we forget about the people who thought they were studs.........yea no one had doubts about kobe, that's how he was able to be traded for freaking vlade divac........and felipe lopez wasnt a bum......he never fulfilled the hype but he has a solid college career and him leading the red storm to an upset win over A.I and the hoyas where he dropped 26 was an all time moment for st johns basketball. he's no more a disappoint at st johns than MAyo was at USC......


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Please....*

Lopez got by on his physical abilities. As the competition increased, his effectiveness decreased. Maybe you don't remember but he got almost as much hype as James did. There was talk of him going straight to the NBA. One game with good scoring doesn't make him a good BALLPLAYER. Bum.

I never said you guys had to trust OJ Mayo. I simply said his situation is played out every day by a large number of prodigies....including James in HS. I also never said he was a pass first PG. I said he did what needed to be done and what he was asked to do. Floyd asked him to play off the ball. Comparing him to Marbury and Randolph is absurd and unfounded. You could just as easily compare him to Arenas or James. Where i God's name did you get the idea Mayo doesn't play team ball? I suggest you get and watch some tapes of his games this year...especially the last ten games or so. There is a reason he is a top 4 lock and moving up...


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Twinkie, please.....*



alphaorange said:


> Amare' was absolutely dominant in almost all "big man" phases save for shooting. Did you see him play? He was a monster. The ONLY reason he slipped was because a lot of GMs were worried he wouldn't escape his bad family situation. Garnett was skilled as hell and was considered one of the few HS guys that could come in right away and play. The weren't doubts. Kobe was unbelievable in HS...he had it all...same with McGrady. These guys all knew how to play ball. Their skill level was the opposite of Randolphs. He is beyond raw and they were excellent. I'll give you JO but it makes my point. He is the only one you listed that was drafted on his physical ability alone. ALL those other guys had serious game.
> 
> Actually, I'm not entirely sure O'Neal is a good example for your case either. I seem to recollect that he was a stud who simply needed to get bigger..which is not to say he was a finished product, only that he was skilled at more than running, jumping, and dunking.


The thing is that anyone that makes the NBA DOMINATED high school players. I don't know the point you are trying to make because everything is different on the NBA level and coming in, none of those guys I mentioned could contribute much there first season (save maybe Garnett).

O'neal also played extremely well in high school and averaged a 20 and 20 along with some other South Carolinaian big man at the 5 on his team.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Could have contributed.......or did?*

Oneal was a very good player and did very well against his NBA teammates in practice. Amare was something like 13 or 14ppg and 7 boards (I think) in his rookie year. Every guy I mentioned was ready and able to contribute at least a journeyman level as a rookie. The fact they didn't speaks more of their teams depth than it does their inability to play. For example: JO sat behind Pippen and Wallace. Amare was dominant against HSers, yes. But the best HS players in the world. His game was not as raw as you would have us believe. Whenever GMs go gaga over a players physical characteristics rather than his Bball skills, the get burned most of the time. Everyone wants the gold strike. See the Sonic's Sene. Huge wingspan....huge bust.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Could have contributed.......or did?*



alphaorange said:


> Oneal was a very good player and did very well against his NBA teammates in practice. Amare was something like 13 or 14ppg and 7 boards (I think) in his rookie year. Every guy I mentioned was ready and able to contribute at least a journeyman level as a rookie. The fact they didn't speaks more of their teams depth than it does their inability to play. For example: JO sat behind Pippen and Wallace. Amare was dominant against HSers, yes. But the best HS players in the world. His game was not as raw as you would have us believe. Whenever GMs go gaga over a players physical characteristics rather than his Bball skills, the get burned most of the time. Everyone wants the gold strike. See the Sonic's Sene. Huge wingspan....huge bust.


O'neal was not a very good player at 17 when made his 1st pro appearnce, he was very much an unknown quantity as a rook even after 4 yr.s he was he was still that way which is why he was dealt for something as ordinary as dale davis , 

didn't portland know what they had ?, he was every bit as good as davis the year they were dealt for each other...but they didn't seem to know that because basically he hadn't been so great they knew what they had, he had shown the possobilities were endless but is production at that point was nonexistant.

and every top HSer plays against the top Hser's in the world if they reach a certain level and just about every straight to pro's prep star dominated at that level as twinkie already stated, he was very talented was the consensus , but he didn't have an overwhelming skill package other than explosive legs ...everything else he worked on and earned as a pro, like most prep to pros its what you work on past HS graduation that ultimately tells how good you are, its not like a college senior whom many of his skills have been developed in most cases and he just needs some fine tuning and seasoning.....as a rook he(amare) was basically just a dunker playing 4th fiddle in the suns attack...even at this stage he is far from a complete player , a decent but not in line with his pyhsical gifts as a rebounder, defender, shotblocker, all of the attibutes that make him special pretty much only show up on the offensive side of the ball with any kind of consistency.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

So.... what're we arguing about again??? Personally, I feel the sky's the limit for O.J., he's been blessed with such NBA ready physique and size. I just feel that he might not be able to ever capitalize upon his God given uniqueness due to poor decision making in real life. I mean honestly, O.J.'s been surrounded by a lot of drama and I simply don't know how well it'll serve him.


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