# Season Summary



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Positives

Ed Davis - The early season injury didn't stop Ed Davis from being one of the better rookies this season. This guy is exactly what the Raptors need and what has been lacking throughout the Chris Bosh years. I expect big things from Ed next season as he becomes our starting center/power forward.

DeRozan - Before the season started there were many people including myself that doubted DeRozan's ability to score. Last year he was too timid on offense and disappeared from long stretches during games. Not any more this year especially in the latter part of the season. After another offseason of working on his jump shot he should be a solid 20 point scorer next year.

Amir Johnson - The 5 year, 34 mil deal certainly looks better now than 10 month ago. Amir has made improvements in managing his fouls and as a result increased his playing time. He will be a solid player for us either as a starter or a sixth man playing around 25 min a night.

Negatives 

Linas Kleiza - This guy has been a bust signing and now that he's injured he's pretty much unmovable. Good thing we're only paying him about 13 mil over the next 3 years. If he can come back healthy sometime next year perhaps we can find some value in him as a bench player.

Bargnani - This season is both Bargnani's break out year and the year that ended all the "potential" talk. While we found out that he can be a 20 ppg scorer when given the opportunity, we also discovered that those 20 ppg does little to alter a game's outcome. There should be a place in the NBA where Bargnani would be effective but it's clear that it isn't Toronto. Perhaps playing next to a defensive big ala Dwight Howard, Roy Hibbert, and Andrew Bogut is where Bargnani can shine. As the featured big and arguably the best player on the team he is terrible.

Will add more to this thread at a later time


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

I thought the James Johnson trade was a bright spot honestly I thought James wouldn't amount to anything but all he needed was some playing time he could be a solid bench player for us down the road


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Thoughts on the GM and coaching situation.

Looking at how Denver handled the Melo situation it's hard not to feel that Colangelo did a less than satisfactory job with Chris Bosh. But I do understand how it would be easier for Denver to part with its star than for Toronto as we have a complex of our stars leaving our franchise. Alone on the Chris Bosh front I feel that Colangelo did what most GM would've done in that situation which was play it until the very end so that at least the fans don't buy into the "Can't keep a star in Canada" concept. However that is not an excuse for BC's long line of mistakes leading up to the Bosh's departure. From drafting Bargnani to the TJ Ford trade/signing to Jermaine O'neal, Peja, Calderon extension, BC has done more wrong than right in his time in Toronto. I am on the fence about whether or not the Raptors should bring in another GM because BC is only one of the many guys that have failed at this job. The positive thing that Colangelo has going for him is that he isn't afraid to make moves. Perhaps with some luck he'll be able to turn this franchise into a successful one. However if the Raptors do decide to go with someone else I wouldn't feel bad about it.

Jay Triano on the other hand I believe needs to go. Watching Chicago and Tom Thibodeau you can just see how much difference a coach can make. While Jay Triano does preach defense it's hard not to think that player talent may not be the only reason why the Raptors defense continues to be subpar. There was no reason for Triano to allow Bargnani to play the way he did. Triano should've criticized Bargnani more on his lack of rebounding and interior defense. At some point Triano should point out that it's not ok for a center to just prance around and average less than 5 boards a game. To continue giving the guy massive amount of minutes to pad stats is giving out the wrong message to our young players.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Bargnani and Triano need to go.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> Positives
> 
> Ed Davis - The early season injury didn't stop Ed Davis from being one of the better rookies this season. This guy is exactly what the Raptors need and what has been lacking throughout the Chris Bosh years. I expect big things from Ed next season as he becomes our starting center/power forward.
> 
> ...


Additional Positives:

Dumped a LOT of salary by getting rid of Hedo and Jarrett Jack. This will help with the ongoing rebuilding process. Hedo was a poor fit from day one, and that was with Bosh and playoff aspirations. With Bosh gone, getting rid of Hedo was the best move Coangelo made all year. Of course, he's the same dip**** that gave Hedo that ridiculous contract in the first place, but at least he was able to undo his previous mistake.

Jerryd Bayless - he's a younger, cheaper (for now), better version of Jarrett Jack. Fits in better with your rebuilding plans. 



seifer0406 said:


> Negatives
> 
> Bargnani - This season is both Bargnani's break out year and the year that ended all the "potential" talk. While we found out that he can be a 20 ppg scorer when given the opportunity, we also discovered that those 20 ppg does little to alter a game's outcome. There should be a place in the NBA where Bargnani would be effective but it's clear that it isn't Toronto. Perhaps playing next to a defensive big ala Dwight Howard, Roy Hibbert, and Andrew Bogut is where Bargnani can shine. As the featured big and arguably the best player on the team he is terrible.
> 
> Will add more to this thread at a later time


I could not agree more. Of course, you know me as a long time Bargnani detractor, and I've always felt Bargnani's historically bad rebounding and his poor defense greatly out weigh his scoring. Yes, as the number 1 option on a 22 win team he's capable of averaging 20 PPG, but he does so little else that he would never be the first option on a winning team. He's just not a franchise player you can build around. He COULD be a decent role player on a good team. He was a decent 6th man on the 47 win team his rookie year. In such a limited role, his scoring off the bench could be a boost and his weaknesses would be less glaring. For a guy who averaged >20 PPG, he produced less in other areas and did less, by far, to help his team win than any other 20 PPG scorer in the league. Look at these two tables:

http://bkref.com/tiny/45L1s

This first table shows all players in the league that averaged > 20 PPG ranked by PER (Hollinger's Player Efficiency Rating). PER is a single number that tries to measure total player production with a single stat. It's not perfect. Like most stats, it's heavily offensively biased. But, in general, it's a decent measure of total player production. Most players that averge over 20 PPG will also have a PER above 20. In this list, Bargnani comes in dead last (PER = 16.4), by a fair margin and is over 5 PER points behind LaMarcus Aldridge (who scores about the same number of points and was drafted immediately after Bargnani). This table shows that Bargnani is the least productive 20 PPG scorer in the league.

http://tiny.cc/fo5tk

This second table is even more damning. It ranks all 20 PPG scores by Win Shares (WS). Not only does Bargnani come is dead last (2.6), his Win Shares are less than half those of the second worst player on this list. Again, Aldridge scores about the same as Bargnani, but is 7th in the league in WS at 11.1 - about what you'd expect from a player than averages 21 PPG. Don't like the Aldridge comparison? Then use any of the other power forwards on the list (Kevin Love, Dirk Nowitski, Zach Randolph, Blake Griffin or Amare Stoudemire) who all had WS between 8.0 and 11.4. This list shows that Bargnani does far, far less to help his team win than any other 20 PPG scorer.

These tables basically confirm what you wrote, and what I've been saying about Bargnani for years - he can score, but does NOTHING else to help his team win. In fact, in anything other than a supporting role, he hurts his team a LOT. If you can't trade him you should either move him to the 6th man role, or best case get a stud center in an upcoming lottery. Because, if you ever expect to win anything with Bargnani in the line-up, you're going to need one of the best rebounding, best defending centers in the league playing next to him covering up his weaknesses.

BNM


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

The movement is gaining momentum. Bargs has worn out his welcome.

http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=362496

Great article on why Raps must trade him.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Bargnani trade ideas:

1. Bargnani to Charlotte for Boris Diaw and future first (Could be top 3 protected)

2. Bargnani to Milwaukee for Corey Maggette and 2011 first round pick

3. Bargnani to Sixers for Nocioni and Thaddeus Young

4. Bargnani to Atlanta for Marvin Williams

5. Bargnani to New Orleans for Trevor Ariza + future first (lottery protected)

6. Bargnani to San Antonio for Richard Jefferson

7. Bargnani to Denver for Raymond Felton and Mozgov

8. Bargnani to Golden State for Andris Biedrins


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Just to wrap up my final thoughts regarding Bargnani.

I don't really think we need to look too deep into stats to come to the conclusion that Bargnani should be moved. There is only one part of Bargnani's game that needs to change for him to be an effective player, rebounding. If he is able to average 10 or even 8 rebounds a game he would be a completely different player. It's not even that our team needs him to be the best rebounder, it's just that whenever he's on the court the team is constantly beat on the boards. That to me is the main problem and everything else comes from this central issue. I can really care less about what he does on offense because that can be remedied by changing guys that he plays with. It's not his fault that he isn't a good 1st option, few players in the league are. What is his fault is his inability to become an average rebounder and that is the origin to the Raptors problems. Starting Reggie Evans, a rebounding specialist, shows how far the Raptors have gone to try to fix this issue. Had Reggie been healthy the entire season perhaps we wouldn't be as bad but it's not something that we should be doing long term.

Like the article said I don't think BC made a mistake drafting Bargnani. Sure we could've done better with Aldridge or Gay but at the same time we could've drafted Morrison or Tyrus Thomas. Even if we drafted Brandon Roy it might not be a great long term move considering we could be the team that's stuck with his max contract and 2 bum knees. I hope that BC or whoever our next GM is decides to pull the trigger now while Bargnani still have some value. It's time for us to move forward with Ed Davis as our featured big and go from there.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

It's going to be interesting when some offers start to be leaked and we can find out what the GM's think Bargnanis value is. 



seifer0406 said:


> Bargnani trade ideas:
> 
> 1. Bargnani to Charlotte for Boris Diaw and future first (Could be top 3 protected)
> 
> ...


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Bargs to Gs for Bedrins would be great, Biedrins was the guy we were supposed to draft instead of hoffa but babcock was i dont want to say more lousy and if I say more i might get a warning just the e end of his last name should say enough.

Or trade Bargnani for a solid PG or a good vet SF to split PT with James Jhonson.
draft wise if we cant get Erving Kemba would be good to groom in as Barbosa may not be back and even if he is playing at the 1 he plays like a 2. Re sign Reggie try trading Klieza with bargs and sign a back up C like Oden low cost 2 yrs 4 mill and add a 3 pt specialist. Even if we can get Reggie back for insurance I add a interior guy like Oden and if he is playing about 15-20 MPG he should be good

Jose/ Kemba/
DD/Bayless
Jhonson Klieza/fa
Davis Amir 
Biedrins Reggie Oden

Not stellar but with more emergence from DD and Davis & Bayless and a interior defender they should realistically be a 500% contender 40 wins double output, adding Biedrins Oden, and a bigger back up SG should help.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Junkyard Dog13 said:


> 2. Re sign Reggie try trading Klieza with bargs and sign a back up C like Oden low cost 2 yrs 4 mill and add a 3 pt specialist. Even if we can get Reggie back for insurance I add a interior guy like Oden and if he is playing about 15-20 MPG he should be good.


In spite of all the injuries, you won't get Oden for 2 years $4 million. Not even close. He will get the qualifying offer from the Blazers for $8.8 million for next season and become a restricted free agent giving the Blazers the right to match any offer he receives. They will match any low ball offers without hesitation. In fact, they'd love to have Oden get a low ball offer so they can match it and lock him up cheaply for a couple more seasons. If he gets a BIG dollar offer, then they will have to make a decision on whether or not to match. Unless it's something ridiculous, like a 5 year max. contract, I suspect the Blazers will match. Matching a low ball offer is a no brainer.

But, other than that, I agree Oden would give you exactly what you are lacking. Prior to the ruptured patella in December 09, he was leading the league in FG%, TRB% and BLK% - which is exactly what you want out of a low post player; efficient scoring, controlling the boards and defending the paint. It is this production, when (and if) healthy that will make it impossible to get Oden with a low ball offer. Someone will be willing to roll the dice and hope the injuries will someday be behind him, or at least allow him to play a very productive 24 MPG. He's still young (just turned 23) and has been insanely productive, on a per minute basis, when he's been able to play. If not for the injuries, he'd be a franchise changing max. contract player. But the injuries are a wild card and make it impossible to predict his future. 

BNM


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

If we're going to spend money to gamble on a young draft bust I would rather we go after Hasheem Thabeet than Greg Oden. Thabeet doesn't have the talent but at least he has knees that don't self-detonate every 10 games.

I don't know why the Blazers don't just cut ties with the guy. Even if he somehow makes a miraculous comeback watching him play would be like watching a guy with a brain tumor fight in a boxing match. Every single time he falls/trips/bang knees/*jumps* people would be cringing in anticipation of something terrible. 

Oden aside I don't think backup C is an area that we should focus on. Assuming that Bargnani is moved and we go with Amir/Ed Davis in the front court I would like to see guys like Ajinca and Alabi get more burn next year.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Either we need a legit starting C or we don't.

Talking about a 'backup' C is typical BC logic where he expects a backup playing limited minutes to somehow change our D dramatically. Doesn't happen.

A defensive C that can actually rotate properly and cause perimeter players to think twice before driving into the paint allows your perimeter guys to pressure the ball harder and run guys off the 3pt line. Only a starter can have that kind of impact. Just watching a broken down JermaineOneal the other night was incredible and showed just how much Toronto lacks in this area. This is way more important than just rebounds and is why Bargs can't be part of a winning team here as our starting C, and probably not as PF either.

If we do pick up a Thabeet we have to get a Mutombo to coach him for a year or 2. Or that guy Orlando had as big man coach for a few years and worked with other good C's. You can't just expect regular coaching to be enough. 

Whatever happened to Sean Williams who was a big shot blocker in NJ but had attitude issues. He may have matured after being ousted from the league.

Maybe Ed and Amir can do it. I don't know.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

If Bargnani can rebound you can pair him up with a defensive minded center. There are plenty of power forwards that are not great defensively. Guys like Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer, Kevin Love all are subpar defensively but they can all rebound the ball.

This is also why I'm not too high on Brook Lopez if he continues to average pathetic rebounding numbers. It is just too difficult to build a team around a PF/C that can't rebound. You can do it if you have a guy like Dwight Howard around but even then it will be best that you don't.

I don't think Ed+Amir is a long term solution either. But for now I would much rather start the 2 of them in order to erase the culture of soft bigs that has plagued this franchise for the past 5 years.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Is there value in keeping Bargs at his salary assuming we do get that defensive C.

We have Ed and Amir to play 4, both of whom have good enough offensive games without requiring spoon feeding. And they give you more hustle, D, and rebounding at less $$$.

I think our frontline would be set with that C, Ed, Amir and guys like Ajinca/Alabi on the bench.

Maybe Bargs helps us get the SF we need if we can't draft him.

Ideally our skill guys at the 1, 2 and 3 can carry the bulk of the scoring load and create for the bigs.


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## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

Colangelo looking to pair Bargnani with traditional C:

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/04/18/bargnanis-future-murky-in-toronto


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

^^^^^

i took that headline at face value the first time i saw it but now i realize i shouldn't have. imo those quotes seem awfully close to "bargnani is done here. it's just a matter of finding the right trade partner."

there's nothing he said that makes me think he has any intentions of bringing back andrea bargnani. same with bargnani himself- from his exit interview, i think he also realizes his time is up. the two of them probably had a little talk. stark contrast between this year's exit and last year's. i hope- but also truly think- the writing is finally on the wall here. to be honest, it feels remarkably similar to bosh last year. 

buy high, sell low = the colangelo philosophy? who cares. selling low still > giving away. 

he averaged 5.2 rpg. you gotta be kidding me. 

peace


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Yeah, my reading was that the sub text definitely hinted towards shipping him out. Colangelo was just saying everything that teams like Orlando and the Bucks want to hear. Teams with big defensive minded Centres will have always thought a scoring PF in the mold of Bargnani would be a valuable asset, BC was just carressing these thoughts in the guise of what the Raptors might do. 

Atleast, I pray that's what he was doing.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

This would be my ideal summer.

Draft Kyrie Irving.

Trade Bargnani to the Bucks for Maggette and their first.

Draft Jonas Valanciunas with Bucks first.

Amir Johnson
Ed Davis
James Johnson
Demar DeRozan
Kyrie Irving

Jonas Valanciunas
Jose Calderon
Corey Maggette
Jerryd Bayless

And then we have guys like Alabi, Ajinca, Weems, Wright, Barbosa depending on their contract situations. We will spend the season trying to trade guys like Calderon and Maggette.

This squad will probably win 25-30 games which will give us another lottery pick. With some luck we can turn that into Harrison Barnes or Perry Jones.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Why do you prefer Val over Kanter?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I think Kanter would be a top 5 pick this year. I don't think you can get him with the Bucks pick.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Ahh, gotcha.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> This would be my ideal summer.
> 
> Draft Kyrie Irving.
> 
> ...


Why would the Bucks take Barg?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

A number of Bucks fans have actually said they like the idea of Bargs on their team. I read that on a couple of forums.

Some things look better on paper than they do on a basketball court.

I do think Bargs has some value around the league because he has only been on 1 team, he is a 20ppg scorer, and some GMs will view TOR as a dysfunctional place and think they can do much better with him inside a strong system. But there won't be a bidding war because Bargs is not an all star level player and BC will not extract great value in trade as teams sense weakness in him.


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