# Should Paul Pierce be in Kobe and T-mac's tier now?



## rocken (Nov 5, 2002)

2002-03 Statistics 

Bryant
PPG 28.9 
RPG 7.2 
APG 6.7 
SPG 2.21 
BPG .92 
FG% .455 
FT% .830 
3P% .372 
MPG 41.6 

Mcgrady
PPG 30.4 
RPG 6.6 
APG 4.9 
SPG 1.64 
BPG .80 
FG% .455 
FT% .798 
3P% .364 
MPG 39.6 

Pierce
PPG 26.2 
RPG 7.5 
APG 4.5 
SPG 1.90 
BPG .76 
FG% .408 
FT% .820 
3P% .289 
MPG 39.9 

He carried the Celtics while Walker was injured and plays them well head to head. Thoughts?


----------



## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

No...

last year though, he was alot closer, but this year his shooting touch is down...


----------



## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

I think so. I think he should've been considered around as good ever since his performance against the Sixers in the playoffs. The reason he doesn't get as much notoriety is cause he's not a dunking demon like them. His fg% hurts him, because he takes too many threes, and his shot selection could be better. I actually think McGrady is a more consistent shooter from outside, but when Pierce gets hot, he doesn't miss. When he gets on that baseling though, and he's got a 1 on 1, he's almost unstoppable. He's the best in the league with the jab-stepping, pump faking, and getting people to foul him. It's fun to watch him there. He's gotten a lot better with his passing, and I think he's right there with Tmac. Maybe a little below Tmac, but not too much, Kobe's better than them both, but not by a landslide or anything. 

Also, when Pierce plays defense intensively, he's as good as there is.


----------



## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

Pierce is in the middle. He isn't as good as Kobe and TMac but he's better than all of the other perimeter guys. His shot is usually pretty good but he's off this year. Overalll his repetoire isn't quite as good as Kobe-TMac. He's got pretty good handles but not as good as KB-TM. He's a pretty good passer but not as good as KB-TM. He doesn't have their lightning quick first step either. What he does do well is shoot from deep, he's got a nice mid range game, he can get to the line, and he's very good with his back to the basket. On D he is underrated. When KB-TM are focused they are better but PP plays everybit as hard as Kobe and harder than TMac on this end. Really the biggest thing that seperates these guys is that Kobe and TMac have freakish athleticism and PP has good athleticism. His skills are just about the same though.


----------



## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> Pierce is in the middle. He isn't as good as Kobe and TMac but he's better than all of the other perimeter guys. His shot is usually pretty good but he's off this year. Overalll his repetoire isn't quite as good as Kobe-TMac. He's got pretty good handles but not as good as KB-TM. He's a pretty good passer but not as good as KB-TM. He doesn't have their lightning quick first step either. What he does do well is shoot from deep, he's got a nice mid range game, he can get to the line, and he's very good with his back to the basket. On D he is underrated. When KB-TM are focused they are better but PP plays everybit as hard as Kobe and harder than TMac on this end. Really the biggest thing that seperates these guys is that Kobe and TMac have freakish athleticism and PP has good athleticism. His skills are just about the same though.


I'd agree with most of this.


----------



## cryptic (Nov 30, 2002)

Uh...no
Paul Pierce is not even near Kobe and T-mac's tier


----------



## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

Peirce is not on the top tier w/ T-Mac and Kobe. He's on the level of Vince.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Wow... Kobe has the best 3pt % out of the 3. Who knew?


----------



## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> Peirce is not on the top tier w/ T-Mac and Kobe. He's on the level of Vince.


Pierce would have taken that as an insult earlier in the year but Vince is playing some solid ball right now.


----------



## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

The early part of the season just killed Pierce's FG percentage. He just didn't have his touch from last year. However, lately, he's been much better (13 of 20 last night against the Blazers for instance). As for the rest of his game, it's been improving steadily every year. He's a much better passer and rebounder this year. After the Blazers started swarming him last night in the fourth quarter, he found the open teammates for baskets that sealed the win. He also had an amazing drive to the basket where he shook 2 defenders and then dunked on a third. He doesn't go for the flash as much as T-Mac or Kobe, so he doesn't make the highlight films too much. He has the athleticism to do some spectacular things, but he'll settle for laying it off the glass over dunking it most of the time. I'd say he drives to the basket better than T-Mac or Kobe. He leads the league in FTs by a long shot. He takes a beating like Iverson. I don't see T-Mac or Kobe taking hard fouls that often. 

Like T-Mac and Kobe, Pierce is not finished developing. He will continue to get better. None of them have peaked yet, so it's hard to say who will be the best. Pierce did pretty well when Walker was injured. Kobe did well individually when Shaq was out, but his team did not. I think Pierce is a better leader in that regard. T-Mac and Kobe definitely do more jaw-dropping things, but Pierce isn't too shabby. If he continues shooting like he has recently, his FG% will slowly increase. However, it won't be anything pretty because of the first part of the season. 

Also, keep in mind that Pierce was slowed down a bit when he was stabbed. He wasn't able to work out as vigorously as he wanted and fatigue was a factor, but he still had quite a season that year. He may not be as good as Kobe or T-Mac, but he's not far behind. Tom Heinsohn said he's the best offensive Celtic he's ever seen, and he's seen all of them. He's comparing Pierce to other Celtics, so you can't blame that comment on homerism.


----------



## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mrsister</b>!
> The early part of the season just killed Pierce's FG percentage. He just didn't have his touch from last year. However, lately, he's been much better (13 of 20 last night against the Blazers for instance). As for the rest of his game, it's been improving steadily every year. He's a much better passer and rebounder this year. After the Blazers started swarming him last night in the fourth quarter, he found the open teammates for baskets that sealed the win. He also had an amazing drive to the basket where he shook 2 defenders and then dunked on a third. He doesn't go for the flash as much as T-Mac or Kobe, so he doesn't make the highlight films too much. He has the athleticism to do some spectacular things, but he'll settle for laying it off the glass over dunking it most of the time. I'd say he drives to the basket better than T-Mac or Kobe. He leads the league in FTs by a long shot. He takes a beating like Iverson. I don't see T-Mac or Kobe taking hard fouls that often.
> 
> Like T-Mac and Kobe, Pierce is not finished developing. He will continue to get better. None of them have peaked yet, so it's hard to say who will be the best. Pierce did pretty well when Walker was injured. Kobe did well individually when Shaq was out, but his team did not. I think Pierce is a better leader in that regard. T-Mac and Kobe definitely do more jaw-dropping things, but Pierce isn't too shabby. If he continues shooting like he has recently, his FG% will slowly increase. However, it won't be anything pretty because of the first part of the season.
> ...


I don't know about him being better than Bird. Pierce is usually a very good shooter but Bird was in his own league. Pierce is little bit better at driving and with his back to the basket but Bird was a superior passer. Bird has few peers when it came to making clutch shots as well. I think Pierce has alot of the same attributes as Bird but Bird was alot more refined. You are right when you say that Pierce isn't far behind Kobe and TMac. He isn't. The gap between those players isn't big but it is there.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

NO


----------



## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> NO


No as in not even close or no as in not quite as good. I have a hard time believing it is anything but the latter.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> No as in not even close or no as in not quite as good. I have a hard time believing it is anything but the latter.


No that he is not as good as either one of them


----------



## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>cryptic</b>!
> Uh...no
> Paul Pierce is not even near Kobe and T-mac's tier


Do not get me started on this. T-Mac is the best jump shooter of the three but he is an average defender. Pierce is a better basketball player than McGrady.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Do not get me started on this. T-Mac is the best jump shooter of the three but he is an average defender. Pierce is a better basketball player than McGrady.


Pierce is not a better basketball player than McGrady. Pierce does not pass the ball to make teammates better. He is terribly inconsistent to be considered in Tmac or Kobes class. The thing that seperates TMAC and kobe from Pierce is consistency.


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> Pierce does not pass the ball to make teammates better.


Sorry BEEZ, but :no:

He doesn't pass the ball?


----------



## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Yes, Pierce is consistently good on defense and always hustles. T-Mac is consistently mediocre on defense and rarely hustles.

Yes, Pierce is a streak shooter. He will have games where he throws up some bricks. McGrady is a great pure jump shooter, better than Pierce.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry BEEZ, but :no:
> ...


Aquatious you being a Celtics fan and I watch many Celtic games on League Pass. I consistenly watch Pierce look off teammates and when he passes, not all the time but enough for me to realize that hes not in Tmac's or kobes class. The only consistent receiver of Peirce passes is walker. Buddy Ball at its best


----------



## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

Pierce had college experience, which I think helped his basketball intelligence. I think T-Mac relies more on raw talent and athleticism. That's not to say T-Mac won't gain the knowledge as he goes along. I just think Pierce has a headstart in that regard.

One difference between Pierce and T-Mac is that Pierce plays alongside Walker so is not the only option (same with Kobe and Shaq). He gets his numbers despite having another All-Star on the team. T-Mac is the main option on his team as long as Hill is injured. Miller is ok, but he's not nearly the same level. Therefore, T-Mac will get his numbers without much competition. 

The true test is what happens in the playoffs. T-Mac has to make his team better or they have no chance. One advantage Pierce has already is that his team has made it to the Eastern Conference Finals. The Magic have struggled. Kobe's won three rings, so he has an advantage over both of them. Having Shaq is also a big advantage. No matter how good you are, you're not great until you can get your team to play above themselves when you're around. I think Pierce does that better than T-Mac but still needs to improve. It's questionable whether Kobe makes his teammates better given their poor start to the season. It's as if the rest of the team was waiting for Shaq.


----------



## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> Aquatious you being a Celtics fan and I watch many Celtic games on League Pass. I consistenly watch Pierce look off teammates and when he passes, not all the time but enough for me to realize that hes not in Tmac's or kobes class. The only consistent receiver of Peirce passes is walker. Buddy Ball at its best


I disagree there. Pierce passes to everyone. The only consistent scorer is Walker. When Battie is in the game, he gets a lot of passes from Pierce when he draws defenders in the paint. Baker gets some of those passes, too, but he's usually not ready for them so nothing comes of it. The perimeter shooters (Shammond Williams, Tony Delk, J.R. Bremer) also get a lot of passes from Pierce. It just has to be a good night for them to knock it down. When Pierce passes on the drive or out of a double team, it's a split second decision. He doesn't have time to realize whether it's Walker who he's passing to. If the recipient doesn't finish, it's not his fault. In set plays, he often passes to Walker because that's how O'Brien drew up the play. 

Kobe and T-Mac may be better than Pierce, but I don't think it's because they're less selfish.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mrsister</b>!
> 
> 
> I disagree there. Pierce passes to everyone. The only consistent scorer is Walker. When Battie is in the game, he gets a lot of passes from Pierce when he draws defenders in the paint. Baker gets some of those passes, too, but he's usually not ready for them so nothing comes of it. The perimeter shooters (Shammond Williams, Tony Delk, J.R. Bremer) also get a lot of passes from Pierce. It just has to be a good night for them to knock it down. When Pierce passes on the drive or out of a double team, it's a split second decision. He doesn't have time to realize whether it's Walker who he's passing to. If the recipient doesn't finish, it's not his fault. In set plays, he often passes to Walker because that's how O'Brien drew up the play.
> ...


No I never said it was because I thought he was selfish, I jsut said he isterribly inconsistent which even Celtic fans know. At the same time addressing your point the Cetics are not a better team when they setup in the half-court offense which most of the passing goes on between Pierce and Tmac and also as far as the Celtics have been to the Eastern Conference Finals they have Antoine Walker while McGrady has Miller


----------



## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

Pierce has become a very good passer. The guy can maneuver his way into the lane about as well as anyone in the league, and when he gets there, he either finishes, draws the foul, or passes out to a teammate for the shot, most of the time the three. You're right, however, on him being inconsistent. If he can gain some consistency, then he'll definitely be in Tmac's tier. Although it depends on how they develop, Tmac may get a lot better still, I don't think Pierce will ever be the all-around player Kobe is though. The fact is, there really aren't many noticeable differences on the stat sheet between Tmac and Pierce other than fg%. I don't think he's as good, but he's very close, and could be as good within a year or two (if not better)


----------



## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

It's amazing to me how all of you focus on one end of the floor. 50% of the game is defense and defense wins championships in basketball just as in every other team sport.

Pierce is a tough defender, who gives 100% all of the time. He commits an occasional dumb foul, but they are hustle fouls. McGrady can't even stop Eric Williams, who posted him up at will the last time the C's played in Orlando.

I'll concede that McGrady is a better offensive player than Pierce, although I think it is closer than some people think. But on defense it is not even close. 

I thought this thread was about who was the best basketball player, not who was the best offensive basketball player.

I watched McGrady last night against the Pistons. He had a nice comfortable 35, very smooth, very nice shooting. And the Pistons had a comfortable win. Sure you can blame it on McGrady's supporting cast, which is lousy. But I did not see McGrady trying to stop Rip Hamilton either. He's not good enough to guard a player like Hamilton.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> It's amazing to me how all of you focus on one end of the floor. 50% of the game is defense and defense wins championships in basketball just as in every other team sport.
> 
> Pierce is a tough defender, who gives 100% all of the time. He commits an occasional dumb foul, but they are hustle fouls. McGrady can't even stop Eric Williams, who posted him up at will the last time the C's played in Orlando.
> ...


Well I'll put it like this. If you want you can PM me for tapes of TMAC pre back injury where he shut his man down every time. Since he injured his back he doesnt exert himself much on the defensive end. That is your answer right there


----------



## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> Well I'll put it like this. If you want you can PM me for tapes of TMAC pre back injury where he shut his man down every time. Since he injured his back he doesnt exert himself much on the defensive end. That is your answer right there


I don't care how good he was before he hurt his back. We are talking about right now. If Pierce blows out his knee or something and stops exerting himself on defense, I'll downgrade him as well. No excuses.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't care how good he was before he hurt his back. We are talking about right now. If Pierce blows out his knee or something and stops exerting himself on defense, I'll downgrade him as well. No excuses.


I'm not making excuses. Still the fact of the matter is no GM IMO would choose Pierce over McGrady


----------



## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not making excuses. Still the fact of the matter is no GM IMO would choose Pierce over McGrady


I would. And so would most coaches, who tend to value defense more than GMs, since their job tenure depends on it. If I used your rationale, Arvydas Sabonis would be the best center in the NBA. Before he hurt his knee, he was as good if not better than Shaq, Yao Ming or anyone else.


----------

