# Kobe?



## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

Hey, at least Reggie is the man on his squad.


When you talk Lakers you talk Wilt, Jerry, Magic and Shaq...

No one gives two ****s about tag-along Kobe.


Reggie Miller is the Indiana Pacers and always will be the best shooter on the planet. <strike> **** off Kobe lovers.</strike><b><font color=blue>(We do NOT use masked profanities and attack an entire fan base of posters.)TR</b></font>


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## DP (Jun 7, 2002)

Didn't we go this route before ?

http://basketballboards.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4672


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

What brought this up?


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

And acually, you are wrong. How many rings did Shaq have before Kobe? See the thing is, yes Kobe is overrated, but at the same time Shaq is overrated. They are both top 10 players that have been blessed to be on the same team. Duncan is better than Shaq as he proved this last year. If Duncan had Kobe instead of Shaq, Duncan would have won the last 4 titles. You see what I am saying. 

Top 10 Player + Top 10 Player = Championship


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

My bad. It was just a response to a single fan who blasted Reggie Miller. I shouldn't of directed it at his entire fan base, but I meant for it to be a reply, not a new thread.


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

And with Duncan, it's not like that. It's like this...


If Shaq had Pierce or Reggie or T-Mac or Vince or etc... He'd still have a few rings. Not the other way around. Tracy even said it. It's the big fella that is so great. Kobe has players in his league or better. No one's in Shaq's league, not even Duncan. Especially considering that Duncan is a little soft for the playoffs, where you HAVE to be a warrior. I think Kobe is a top ten player, but Shaq is #1.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>absolutebest</b>!
> No one's in Shaq's league, not even Duncan.
> 
> I think Kobe is a top ten player, but Shaq is #1.


I believe that says it best.


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## Kobeshaq0834 (Aug 6, 2002)

ha?


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## DP (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>absolutebest</b>!
> My bad. It was just a response to a single fan who blasted Reggie Miller. I shouldn't of directed it at his entire fan base, but I meant for it to be a reply, not a new thread.


What thread were you replying to ? We can merge the threads so we won't have too many similar threads clutter up the board.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

Jerry Stackhouse is the man of his squad either, it doesn't mean jack.

Lakers w/ Shaq
and Pierce-probably 2 straight/maybe 3
and Tmac-probably 2 straight, maybe one (was not developed enough 3 years ago, not sure he can play 2nd scoring option and still put up good numbers, he hasn't proven it so far(whenever playing w/ VC or when Hill was healthy)
and Carter-1 or 2
and Miller- 1 maybe if he's lucky, probably 0

"Tracy even said it."

Of course he'd say it, I fail to see how Tracy saying that he could win that many titles w/ Shaq proves anything. He think he's going to say he can't?

Remember shaq had Penny and didn't win anything, Penny was the premier PG when he was w/ shaq(before he got injured), a top 10 player too, and shaq didn't win anything.

Pierce has definately been a top player the last few years and can play w/ another "scorer" on his team, Tmac hasn't proven he can play well w/ another person touching the ball as much as him.

Miller is a great jumpshooter, and one of the best of all time at it, but that doesn't mean he could win anything w/ shaq. Kobe is a great wing defender and can shut down or slow down significantly the other team's best PG or SG. Tmac could do it, but he doesn't do it all the time...


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

I can't believe you don't think Miller would've won anything playing with Shaq. He took the Pacers to the Finals and stole 2 games from them. Look what the guy does in the PLAYOFFS. Forget the reg. season... I'm talking PLAY-FREAKIN-OFFS!!!!!

And when Shaquille played with Penny he was no where near being the monster he is today. But Hakeem definitely was. Hakeem would've won a ring even if Mike never quit. He was just that good in his prime. It's sad to see him detiorate.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

> Tmac could do it, but he doesn't do it all the time...


That's because t-mac also has to be the main option on the offensive end, and that wears him down. Kobe doesn't go through that.

T-mac with those Pippen-like hands and tremendous athletic ability is a great defender. Too bad he has never been to any of the Defensive Teams since it has become a popularity contest lately. Kobe's defense is so above average and so r his numbers, yet he has been makin' the defensive team for 3 straight years. T-mac on other hand usually takes on the oppositions best wing player, does a good job, and still delivers on offense. He averages 1.6 stls and 1 blk per game......those r excellent defensive numbers.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

Listen, did you watch the same semifinals that I did? Did you see Duncan put up 30 points and 17 rebounds? Shaq had 20 points and 10 rebounds and did not make the difference. If it was a one on one matchup between Shaq and Duncan you would all see that Duncan is better. If Kobe were on the Spurs they would have won 4 straight championships, bottom line.


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

Maliakin you think kobe is overrated and a top ten player so why does Duncan win 4 titles with him?I recall you saying kobes only good cause of sha well then if he was with teh spurs would he only be good because fo Duncan? 

you just cant give kobe credit even if youve seen him take over th emost important game of his life?A top ten player cant do what kobe does?Hes on a different level then everyone.Boxscores and stas dont define how good a player is the roles he plays shows it.


Woudl tmac make huge clutch shots to win in indiana in game 4 with Shaq out in 2000.Kobe was 21.Woul Tmac beable to take over the 4th quarter like kobe?He couldnt play with vince he wouldnt beable to play with Shaq!He doesnt have the mentality or teh smarts to do what kobe does.Fine maybe hes more athletic and a better rebounder but that doesnt meanhe is better then kobe.If he was better then people who are experts in teh game would rank him higher ring or not.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Duncan isn't better than Shaq and everybody gets that point, Shaq will go down probably as the best center of all time Duncan may not be the best pf in the league , DUNCAN is great but Shaq would destroy Duncan if he had to guard Shaq man up the Whole game, Remeber how Shaq threw Duncan stuff outta there earlier in the clutch man up this season. 

Reggie Milller is one of the all time great clutch players to ever play the game. but for all around stats over a career MITCH RICHMOND MAY HAVE BEEN BETTER , he never played on a great team and still did work Miller has never really been the Big scorer in the regular season RICHMOND was. And Kobe is much better than Miller is in everything except 3 pt shooting and free throws.

The if this guy played with Shaq they would be champions notion seems ridiculous seemimg as we're not going to find that out just sit back and watch KB and the Diesel collect JEWELRY , 

Why doesn't anyone propose the if this guy played with KOBE idea there's a whole lotta guys whoi would be champions in that scenario also.


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

Nah, it's not the same. Because while Kobe, Pierce and T-Mac are ahead of the rest of the pack as all-around players there are players that can adequately( I mean keep them from "going off" when I say this) defend them. Bruce Bowen, Doug Christie, Ron Artest, James Posey, etc... and Carter, Miller, Allen, Wally, Bonz and Stack can play with them. No one can really guard Shaq at all. Maybe a few guys can score on him a bit but... All he does is do what it takes to get to the Finals and then he completely takes over.


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

And stats mean nothing, really. When Jerry Stackhouse was scoring 29 a game the Pistons blew. Then he shared the roc and played some d, scored 23 a game and they made the playoffs and won 50+ games. 

Reggie Miller is, was and always has been better than Mitch Richmond. Look at this years playoffs. Reggie's game 5 performance was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen. Mitch Richmond hit one shot with like 10 seconds left in the Finals. Anyone can be the man on a bad team and put up numbers. Reggie has been the man on "good" teams his entire career. And like fine wine and Barry Bonds he doesn't seem to get any worse for the wear with age. Reggie is the man. The greatest shooter on the planet. Thats why he will be in the hall and Mitch won't trust me...


Also, Reg has never taken 30 + points in his entire career. Isn't that amazing. He scored 50+ once. How the hell do you do that without popping 30 shots. I'm also gonna say that he is the most efficient- meaning points for shot- non-big man ever. He's got to be when you consider his 3 point and free-throw clips.

Just food for thought about my man. Oh, and don't sleep on his d. It's pretty good, really.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Please stop these dumb Kobe posts
The only people who dis Kobe are mad because the lakers have *easily* the two best players in the league. People pick on KB more cause hes an easier target than Shaq and there are other good players at his pos. 
Duncan is not as good, he doesn't have the killer instinct that Kobe has and he isn't a big game guy. 
Kidd was the real MVP anyway. No doubt about that. 
TMAC reminds me of Kobe when he was twenty and twenty one. 
(Not neccesarily stat. wise) He's Somebody whos an electric scorer and tremendous athlete. But he has a lot of maturing to do before hes in Kobes league. 
Why is Reggie in this conversation. Jalen was as good or better then Miller that year when they went to the finals. And plus Kobe is a better clutch player cause he can create his own shot.
Paul Pierce is great but not close. Vince Carter isn't in the argument. 

*I'd take Iverson over Pierce, Carter, or McGrady* But my opinoin is changing about Paul Pierce and it could if McGrady gets more of an all around game.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

*TMAC reminds me of Kobe when he was twenty and twenty one. 
(Not neccesarily stat wise) He's Somebody whos an electric scorer and tremendous athlete. But he has a lot of maturing to do before hes in Kobes league.*

Shobe, wat do u mean by maturing? On court or Off court? Cuz on the court, t-mac seems like a very knowledgeable player to me. He understands the team concept, knows 1 player can't do it alone and from what i have seen so far, he is an extremely unselfish player on the court. Thus averaging 5+ assists per game and is often lookin' for the open man. At age 21, kobe was still in to the "wanna be like MJ" mode.....thus having the feuds with shaq. Believe me, t-mac is well past that. 

Sure Off the Court t-mac is a cocky **No masked profanities please - DP**, but which young player isn't these days? Kobe is, AI is, Pierce is...etc.

This Kobe vs T-mac comparison is exactly like the Pippen vs Hill thing back in the day. One guy is playing Robin and winning all the championships. The other carries his team all year, puts up gr8 numbers but gets knocked out of the first round. Just pick one, it's all abt opinions.

Among the top 10 players in the league, i think it's only Shaq and Duncan who have seperated themselves from the others. Everybody else is so close that it's all abt opinions. Doesn't necessarily mean if u have the rings, u r better. I doubt if Pip was ever considered better then Malone or Hakeem(pre Mj's retirement).


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

Kobe is not robin.Shaq is superman and kobe is batman.

Get over it and accept this dynasty for what it is already.Maybe in 3 or 4 years another team will take the title but right now the future is paved in purple and gold (ofcourse barring injury).


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

> Kobe is not robin.Shaq is superman and kobe is batman


Hmm...lets see now, who has won the most RS mvp's? Shaq. He has also won 3 straight finals mvp's. The laker offense initiates through shaq and only a fanatic would deny that he is much more important to the team then kobe. Lakers were below .500 W/O shaq this year. 10-1 W/O Kobe(includes last season). Shaq is the lakers' biggest Offensive and Defensive presence PERIOD.

The only real difference between Pippen and Kobe is that Kobe has become LA's go to guy down the stretch and he has definately responded well(especially this season). But Pippen more then makes up Kobe's crunch time play by averagin' more rbs, asts, stls, blks, a higher fg% and obviously his unparalelled D which goes beyond statistics.

I don't understand Y Kobe fans just can't accept him as a great player rather then tryin' to compare him to the ridiculously high level of Shaq or dare i say, MJ.


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

Honestly, I take Pierce before any of the twos. Then T-Mac. Then Kobe. Right now, no one else is close. But if I'm in the playoffs Reggie is the next guy on the list. With his resume and his unbelieveable playoff performances of the last three years (his game hasn't detiorated, really, he just defers more now) how could he not be? And if it all comes down to one shot... Reggie. Compare what he did in Jersey to what Kobe did against San Antonio. Give the guy some credit... he is Mr. Clutch.

And Paul Pierce is just scary.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>absolutebest</b>!
> Hey, at least Reggie is the man on his squad.
> 
> 
> ...


:laugh:  Your opinion is overwhelmed with bias. .:laugh:

please do not call a poster names. truebluefan


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> Maliakin you think kobe is overrated and a top ten player so why does Duncan win 4 titles with him?I recall you saying kobes only good cause of sha well then if he was with teh spurs would he only be good because fo Duncan?
> 
> you just cant give kobe credit even if youve seen him take over th emost important game of his life?A top ten player cant do what kobe does?Hes on a different level then everyone.Boxscores and stas dont define how good a player is the roles he plays shows it.
> ...


I never said Kobe is only good because of Shaq. I said he is overrated because of Shaq. I said he is a top 10 player, but is not the best player in the league or whatever Laker fans call him. Duncan is great. There is no question he is the best PF in the league. During the playoffs Duncan was guarding Shaq and held him to 20 and 10 while Shaq could not guard him. Remeber Robinson was hurt and played like 18 min. and did not really match up on Shaq because he was afraid he would hurt his back. Shaq will not by a long shot go down as the best center ever. I say Duncan would win with Kobe because he would finally have the help he needs. Who is the second option on the Spurs? Malik Rose? And yet they won 57 games. He carries the team in a way that not even Shaq could. If he had a god perimeter player such as Kobe he would win a championship. Riddle Me This. Paul Pierce on the Spurs with Duncan, and Kobe on the Lakers with Shaq. Who wins? I am very serious Duncan is better. You take Kobe off of the Lakers and you have a team similar to the Spurs. Who does better the Spurs or the Lakers. Let's look:
Spurs:
PG:Tony Parker
SG:Steve Smith
SF:Bruce Bowen
PF:Tim Duncan
C: David Robinson
Laker without Kobe:
PG: Derek Fisher
SG: Devean George
SF:Rick Fox
PF:Samaki Walker
C:Shaquille O'Neal

Who goes farther? I just feel the Spurs would. Because they have proven they can. Spurs were 57-25. Lakers were 57-25. Lakers have Shaq and Kobe. Spurs just have Duncan. That right there tells you how good Duncan is. 
Shaq never won a championship until Kobe reached his potential. Before that happened, Duncan won a championship.

Duncan is a better all around player than Shaq. 


Here is my list of top 10 Players:
Duncan 
Shaq
Kidd 
Pierce
McGrady
Kobe
Garnett
Iverson
Payton 
Carter

So in reality yes Shaq is a great player, but he also has the most help.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

*Malakin*

Your post doesn't quite make sense. It says at the begginning that Kobe is only good cause he plays with Shaq. Then it moves onto the Lakers need Kobe to win. Who cares if the spurs could beat LA w/ o Kobe cause LA has Kobe and hes a spur killer. 

Also *SPMJ* I still feel that TMAC needs to mature on and off the court. Like think of when he said that he is the best player in the nba during the playoffs and then he got smoked by Baron Davisand in the process hurt his team by trying to prove his greatness. That's Kobe as a twenty year old.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

*Re: Malakin*



> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> Your post doesn't quite make sense. It says at the begginning that Kobe is only good cause he plays with Shaq. Then it moves onto the Lakers need Kobe to win. Who cares if the spurs could beat LA w/ o Kobe cause LA has Kobe and hes a spur killer.
> 
> Also *SPMJ* I still feel that TMAC needs to mature on and off the court. Like think of when he said that he is the best player in the nba during the playoffs and then he got smoked by Baron Davisand in the process hurt his team by trying to prove his greatness. That's Kobe as a twenty year old.



I never said Kobe was only good because of Shaq. I said Laker fans overrate him because of Shaq. *Kobe is not the best player in the league* Kobe is a top ten player with or without Shaq. Shaq needs Kobe to win just like Kobe needs Shaq to win. They are both top 10 players that happen to be on the same team. But, Duncan is the best in the league.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

"That right there tells you how good Duncan is. 
Shaq never won a championship until Kobe reached his potential. Before that happened, Duncan won a championship"


Your trying to make it sound like duncan did it alone.
But spurs also had david robinson still performing as the 2nd best center in the league... duncan didn't do it alone that year


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Seems like the KOBE AND SHAQ argument always goes in a circle,with the same people defending him me included and the same people dissing him I get it some people just don't like the guy isn't really based on anything quantatative but more on personal dislike which I understand there are players in the league I dislike but Kobe being a major figure makes it a big deal. 

Now to I think ABSOLUTEbest my bad if I'm wrong but I don't know off hand but compare REGGIE career stat to MITCH"S career stat I'd be curiopus to see the results. Reggie is more heralded because of his playoff exploits not neccesarily because he's been a better player ,You can't compare them now because MITCH has a fork in him he's done with bad knees but in both players peaks I bet Mitch had better stats , He never really played on a quality team like Reggie, Reggie played with much better players don't let the current Miller heroics overstate how good he is, He's much more clucth than Mitch because he's had more opportunity to make big plays well anyway MITCH has a ring and Reggie doesn't , so there even though Mitch was carrying KOBE"S bags.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

I said he was the sixth best player in the freaking league. Out of all the players that play basketball in the world, I don't think I am dissing him by saying he is the sixth best in the world.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

I don't agree with Absolutebest. But, if you look at Reggie's career stats. they are damn good. He is 38 and still putting up 17 a night and still sticking daggers in teams. He is 17th on the alltime scoring list. In front of Mitch who is 25th. He is the most clutch player of alltime. Yes, in front of Jordan. I saw the percentage of game winners he hit and it was crazy. 78%. And plus he does crazy stuff when the game is on the line. He hit a bank 40 footer to force the game into overtime. I have never seen anyone do that before. Plus, he hits clutch shots when hurt. Did you see the 98 ECF? In game 4 he sprained his ankle and came back to stick 3 threes in the Bulls, including the game winner on Jordans head. Jordan is by far the better player, but Jordan was good at everything, but not the best at everything. Reggie is the more clutch player than anyone in history.

Kobe will be a better player eventually than Reggie, because that is all Reggie is known for is clutch. He doesn't do much else but hit threes while Kobe can drive to the basket, grab more rebounds, and dro more dimes. But, say if Kobe broke his leg tommorow and never came back from it. Who would go down as a better player? I am very certain Kobe will pass up Reggie, but he is not there yet. And dont say the rings because rings mean nothing when we are comparing two players. Who is better Malone or Pippen? That's what i thought. 

To say Reggie is not a great player is ludicrous. He's not the best p[layer but he is better than Richmond. He's done what he has done for longer than Richmond. Rich and Reggie are about the same age and Reggie scores 17 points and leads his team to the playoffs. While Mitch averages 0 points in 0 minutes and ride's Kobe and Shaq's coatrails.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

Robinson was good when the Spurs won, but he was still winding down and was nothing like what Shaq has now in Kobe.


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## NV_ME (Aug 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> 
> 
> Hmm...lets see now, who has won the most RS mvp's? Shaq. He has also won 3 straight finals mvp's.


here begins and ends the fallacy of all kobe haters. shaq has 3 finals mvps because the east is always deficient of post players to contest shaq. the lakers would be fools not to expose this. he gets the ball because there isnt enough size in the east to content. last year, kobe killed portland, the kings and san antonio. except for one series he was clearly the star of the playoffs. finals mvp for the lakers is always gonna be shaq, as long as he's there just because the east is weak in the middle.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

I respect you saying he is the 6th best when you're just slightly mistaken with Kobe and Shaq being 1-2 best in the league no problem man. Thats funny as hell about Kobe being better than Don Reid ,and TMac being better than Kobe in your dreams, so when you wake up reality CAN SLAP YOU BACK that Kobe is WAY better than Tmac always and I MEAN ALWAYS REFER TO THE GUY WHO PLAYED WITH KOBE,TMAC,AND JORDAN ,HORACE GRANT HE SAYS TMAC NOT ON KOBE'S AND MIKE'S LEVEL YET he should know. 

Malakian wake up just messing with you man. Kobe's still better.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

Kobe doesn't carry the team like T-Mac does. The Magic should have been in the lottery the past few years. I mean they are a horrible team. Look at their lineup:
PG:Armstrong
SG:Tracy McGrady
SF:Mike Miller
PFat Garrity
C:Horace Grant
Who is the leading scorer? T-mac
Who is the leadig rebounder? T-Mac
Who has the most dimes? Armstrong
Without T-Mac they are worse than Memphis. He puts them on his back and gets them into the payoffs.

Now on the other hand Kobe shares the load with Shaq. 
PG:Fisher
SG:Kobe
SF:Fox
PF:Samaki 
C:Shaq
Who is the leading scorer? Shaq
Who is the leading rebounder?Shaq
Who is the leading assist man? kobe


T-Mac leads the team more than Kobe. 

No way in hell is Kobe better than Duncan.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Malakian I like the slight of hand you used for those career stats comparing Reggie Miller and Mitch Richmond. Now when I checked nba.com I found something very interesting, Reggie's scored more points because he was in the league a YEAR longer than Mitch but MITCH"S CAREER avg pts for a career was HIGHER 21ppg to 19ppg ,Reggie did have the playoff avg like I said because he's played in way more playoff games Mitch 19.5 to reggies 23 something but Miller has played in like 100 something playoff games to 20 something for Mitch, while Reggie's had more opportunity to be clutch on TV in the playoffs Mitch has had based on regular season numbers which count because Reggie's team was better, using like categories regular season numbers Mitch's were better. In his Prime Jordan said Mitch was his toughest opponent along with Dumars no mention of Reggie. Reggie's way better now but not in both players PRIME.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

If Reggie had had no weapons he would have scored more points. Reggie was not the only one that could score like Mitch was.

As for Jordan, I read his book For The Love Of The Game he said Reggie was more clutch than himself and he said he had no problem with him offensively but it was hard to guard Reggie because he knew how to get you in foul trouble.


Who is the better all time player betwen Mitch Richmond and Reggie Miller? Reggie Miller. No doubt.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

malakian, your analysis would certainly prove tmac is superior if his team was also superior. having greater overall responsibility on the better team would certainly be a great argument in his favor. but his team is far inferior. therefore the comparison of respsibilities for their teams means alot less. again, your logic could be used to prove dominique was better than magic or bird. is what mcgrady does impressive? of course. he's shown to be a great player. at this point, it comes down to the value you place on being a tremendous contributor for a championship team or the dominant player on a pretty good team.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

Mitch may have averaged two more points than Reggie, but Pierce averages 2 more points than Bryant. According to you Kobe is still better than him. But Kobe has a better team so he goes to the Finals. It's all in the way you look at it. Iverson averages way more than Kobe ,but even I think Kobe is better. So that point is irrelevant. Reggie was better. He was more clutch. Don't even question that. Reggie is the most clutch player of all time. As for being on National TV, how many times is Indy on national TV each year? We are one of the bottom twelve markets. The Kings were a bigger market even back then. 

Reggie was and is a better player than Mitch alltime. Mitch was great and is a hall of famer. but he is not on Reggie's level.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> malakian, your analysis would certainly prove tmac is superior if his team was also superior. having greater overall responsibility on the better team would certainly be a great argument in his favor. but his team is far inferior. therefore the comparison of respsibilities for their teams means alot less. again, your logic could be used to prove dominique was better than magic or bird. is what mcgrady does impressive? of course. he's shown to be a great player. at this point, it comes down to the value you place on being a tremendous contributor for a championship team or the dominant player on a pretty good team.


You make a good point. But, I just don't see Kobe doing what T-Mac is doing right now.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

The statement that Reggie is MORE CLUTCH is a funny statement what does that mean to say that, Reggie I like him but you're putting way too much value on the ability to play the last few minutes of the ball game . More clutch than Jordan man please , I'd call clutch scoring 54 points in a playoff game that you win by a few points without game winning heroics clutch. Thats Jordan, Reggie too many times he scores 20 points then hits the game winner and all of a sudden he's better in the clutch than Jordan. Please watch the Greatest games on NBA TV back in 99 when the Knicks beat the Pacers it was Miller who was Sub Par in the series allowing the Knicks to make it to the Finals. WHere was clutchman Miller then.Making game winning shots are importnt and Reggie is so much more than that but he's not that versatile a player and not that good defensiely, He averaged 16.5 ppg this past year and had some big moments during the playoffs, but lets not overstate his influence on the game because of a few key moments. Jordan leagacy was sealed because he was there all the time unlike Miller Clutch MOMENTS OR NOT, Robert Horry has hit bigger shots on bigger Stages (the finals ) than Miller has, so I guess that makes him great too ,that would be wrong, 

Miller had his chance at Glory in the finals against the Lakers especially in game 4 When Shaq fouled out but I guess he was OUTCLUTCHED by Guess who Kobe Bryant he hit his big shots that game I think Reggie Missed his potential game winner. 

TMac has to win a game at the end in the playoffs first had a chance against the Hornets just couldn't come through in the CLUTCH ,so how is he better than Kobe, Baron stripped Him and he ran out of gas in another close loss to the Hornets.


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

Well actually kobe is doing more then tmac.Its shows with his 3 rings obviously.
Did anyone ever think about this? Tmac averages like 1 more point then kobe and hes by himself without a big guy.Kobe shares his scoring with Shaq and he sometimes even averages over 30 points with Shaq in the game and also Shaq scoring over 30.Kobe and Shaq together average like 55-60 or more points a game during the regular season.Playoffs they play crazy.72 points sometimes. Thats shows you how lethal they are or could be.

My point is kobe shares his scoring with Shaq and still averages 25-30 or more points a game.This just shows you how good of a scorer kobe is.Kobe avereages basically the same as tmac in points when he is the second scorer. Shaq isnt in the game his points,rebounds etc. go sky high win or lose.

So that shows tmac isnt even a great primary scorer if kobe(not the primary scorer)averages basically the same amount of points as him. Kobe also takes on more roles then tmac.


That is one of the reasons kobe is better then tmac.For what kobe does while he is a second scorer is unbeliavable.Not to mention he plays 3 positions, could get triple doubles with Shaq,hes the iniatior,passer,clutch shooter 4th quarter man,defends the fast pgs,brings the ball up,rebounds etc.He has the whole package while the whole time not being the primary scorer.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> Well actually kobe is doing more then tmac.Its shows with his 3 rings obviously.
> Did anyone ever think about this? Tmac averages like 1 more point then kobe and hes by himself without a big guy.Kobe shares his scoring with Shaq and he sometimes even averages over 30 points with Shaq in the game and also Shaq scoring over 30.Kobe and Shaq together average like 55-60 or more points a game during the regular season.Playoffs they play crazy.72 points sometimes. Thats shows you how lethal they are or could be.
> 
> ...



That is wrong, because Kobe hardly ever sees double teams, while T-Mac sees them on almost evry play. If T-mac had a big guy the caliber of Shaq he would average thirty because he would get single coverage and nobody can guard him one on one. 

If Kobe was on the Magic he would not do as good because the defense would zone in on him and he would not know what to do because that has never happened to him before. He would miss more shots. I just don't see Kobe getting to the playoffs with Horace Grant as his center. Even in the East i don't. The Magic with Kobe do not make the playoffs.


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## <<<D>>> (Jul 15, 2002)

How about another scenario?
If T-Mac was on the Lakers, they wouldn't make the championship run they're on now, Kobe's offense and especially his 4th qtr hunger is much more than what T-mac has, Kobe has proved he can come through in the clutch and take over at will, TMac hasn't proved that, Thus far. Kobe's "D" is much more affective as well (NBA All Defense).


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Malakian</b>!
> 
> That is wrong, because Kobe hardly ever sees double teams, while T-Mac sees them on almost evry play. If T-mac had a big guy the caliber of Shaq he would average thirty because he would get single coverage and nobody can guard him one on one.


you realize kobe scored more ppg with a dominant big man than any perimeter player in league history? great perimeter players playign with a dominant big man usually doesn't translate into higher scoring averages. usually just the opposite.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

*Malakin you're wrong*

You are wrong on two points:
1) Duncan is not better than Kobe. I believe I watched a playoff series this year where Kobe played way above Duncan. Kobe outplayed him the whole game while being guarded by all nba defenseman Bowen while Duncan was guarded by Walker and Horry. Kobe also outscored the entire spurs team in a fourth quarter and was the hero in four of the five games while duncan choked

2) I am sick of hering how kobes left open. 
the spurs signed Bowen to try and stop Kobe
the blazers set up pip and patterson to try and stop Kobe
The Kings haveChristie everytime Kobe touches the ball a defender will peal from down low and double him, like Kenyon Martin did. You can argue that after Shaq he is the most foccused on off. player in the NBA. Who ever talks about how he *wants to be* a TMAC stopper.
Not to mention Kobe does all this while guarding the teams best perimeter player on the other end of the floor.

*These are facts buddy* 
Isn't it funny when people talk abot how Kobes better than Tmac or Duncan or Pierce they use evidence and a list of reasons while when people complain about KB not being that good they'll just say something dumb like TMAcs better because Kobe has Shaq. Prove it to me just like TMac proved to me that he can't handle Baron Davis or the playoffs. It isn't hard to lead a team in the eastern conference. Move LA to the east take off Shaq and you have Kobe Bryant as league MVP and getting whooped by the Kings in the NBA finals. 

*If you want to argue Malakin ,or anybody else, please disprove all my points instead of just saying you're wrong*


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Duncan isn't better than Shaq and everybody gets that point, Shaq will go down probably as the best center of all time Duncan may not be the best pf in the league , DUNCAN is great but Shaq would destroy Duncan if he had to guard Shaq man up the Whole game, Remeber how Shaq threw Duncan stuff outta there earlier in the clutch man up this season.


Whoa, whoa, whoa...O'Neal? The best center ever? Let's not get ahead of ourselves... :laugh: 

You're saying that O'Neal is better than Abdul-Jabaar, Russell, Chamberlain, Olajuwon, Robinson, and Ewing...? All of them...? 

By the way, you can't say I'm just bashing the Lakers here; Abdul-Jabaar and Chamberlain were Lakers.


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Malakin you're wrong*



> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> You are wrong on two points:
> 1) Duncan is not better than Kobe. I believe I watched a playoff series this year where Kobe played way above Duncan. Kobe outplayed him the whole game while being guarded by all nba defenseman Bowen while Duncan was guarded by Walker and Horry. Kobe also outscored the entire spurs team in a fourth quarter and was the hero in four of the five games while duncan choked
> 
> ...


OK...you wanted someone to touch on your arguments, so I'll do it.

1.) "Bryant was better than Duncan in the Western Conference Semifinals."

This I don't agree with.

Duncan's stats in the Spurs/Lakers series.
29.0 PPG, 17.2 RPG, 4.6 APG, 3.2 BPG, 1.0 SPG, .425 FG%, .774 FT%

Bryant's stats in the Spurs/Lakers series.
26.2 PPG, 5.4 RPG, 4.8 APG, 0.2 BPG, 1.0 SPG, .455 FG%, .581 FT%

I don't care about how great Bryant looked doing his alley-oop dunk or how well he did in the 4th quarter; those stats don't show Bryant "playing above" Duncan.

2.) "Teams sign defenders to stop Bryant."

This I don't agree with, either. I really can't speak for the other teams, but I know that the Kings didn't sign Doug Christie thinking that his only role would be to guard Bryant. There are other teams in the NBA that need guarding, you know...
 

3.) "People are stupid for thinking that Bryant is overrated because he has O'Neal."

I personally don't agree with it, but to say that Bryant benefits from having O'Neal on his team is not outrageous. You even said it yourself when you said "Move LA to the east take off Shaq and you have Kobe Bryant...getting whooped by the Kings in the NBA finals."


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

Ive seen kobe get double teamed plenty of times with Shaq Yes Ofcourse he gets doubleteamed without Shaq more but he breaks through that defense so easily. 2 defenders just challenge him more to work for his shot.He always finds away to put the ball in doesnt matter who is there.He loves a good challenge.He would bring the magic farther then tmac did, you could bet on that. Not only cause he could tear apart an opponent but because he could freelance and do whatever he wants.He loves an open game.Hence the all star game he was going crazy.He scored the most points out of all the amazing players out there and on the bench.In the triangle hes stuck and doesnt have a lot of room to operate but he still gets it done..A double team cant stop kobe from scoring with or without Shaq.


Also if a team has to use three different players on kobe and they each get into foul trouble does that not tell you anything about what kobe could do to a defender or two.People procalim themselves kobe stoppers(Patterson)I guess thats an honour for him or something even though kobe still gets his points.


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

One more thing shobe is right on the mark.Teams actually do sign defenders to guard kobe.Christie had his hand full the whole series with kobe on his offence, defense and foul trouble.He did nothing.Kobe just destroyed him especially in game 6.the only time christie helped a bit was when kobe was sick but he still scored.Bobby jackson did nothing as well.
Bowen did nothing.Kobe destroyed the spurs.Portland 3 different guys took turns on kobe all had foul trouble and did nothing too him(that was in febuarary without Shaq though).Hmm the nets kidd did nothing,kittles didnt do to much,Vanhorn got torched.It doesnt work noone can guard kobe successfully.


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

Ughh...I'm really getting sick of all this Kobe Bryant hype. YES, beautifulkobe, Bryant can score. That's really all you said in your two posts. We're not saying he can't score, so stop trying to show us that he can. All I'm saying is that he's not the second coming of Christ, OK? Honestly, all the "Kobe Haters" have ever said is that Bryant doesn't deserve all the hype he receives, and maybe, just maybe...*gasp* he isn't the best SG in the league! OH MY GOD! :uhoh:


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

First off Yes I'm saying he's better than all of those centers and Yes I'm saying he's the greatest center of all time ,I've seen everyone of them play and he could have guarded each of them but no one save Wilt could have touched Him 1on1 and Wilt was far more a finese big man with fade aways and finger rolls, Shaq jams it thats all jump hook sometimes but mostly Dand B can't tell you what that is but figure it out. 

Now WHY DOESN'T HE DESERVE THE HYPE WHY NEVER HEARD PEOPLE SAY MJ DIDN'T DESERVE THE HYPE, I believe there's a direct correlation to KOBE HATERS/JORDAN LOVERS , they're so scared that Jordans shine might dim a little if Kobe takes the Reigns. To put the question back at you whats wrong with Kobe being the best Gasp Oh my God. what a tragedy.


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Now WHY DOESN'T HE DESERVE THE HYPE WHY NEVER HEARD PEOPLE SAY MJ DIDN'T DESERVE THE HYPE, I believe there's a direct correlation to KOBE HATERS/JORDAN LOVERS , they're so scared that Jordans shine might dim a little if Kobe takes the Reigns. To put the question back at you whats wrong with Kobe being the best Gasp Oh my God. what a tragedy.


There's really no point arguing with you on this. You're saying that Bryant is as good as Jordan and I'm saying he's not. "Kobe Lovers" basically think people are stupid for not thinking Bryant is the next Jordan. So, therefore, I won't be able to carry on a reasonable conversation with you, because you don't respect my opinion. You're just gonna keep saying that I'm a "Kobe Hater" and that I'm jealous because there's no way I could honestly think that Bryant is not the next Jordan. We both know each other's arguments already so really the only place left to go is to insult each other, and I don't really want to go there.


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## FSH (Aug 3, 2002)

During the season Kobe showed he can win without Shaq


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SUandLAC#1</b>!
> During the season Kobe showed he can win without Shaq


Not really. The Lakers had a .500 record without Shaq.....


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Wiggum don't bail I don't believe Kobe is as good as Jordan and I do respect your opinion,and I never get involved in slinging insults, But I do believe Kobe is the only player in the league currently comparable to Jordan, Some people just feel that because you compare him to Jordan that somehow ridiculous , Look I think Jordans just a better talent than Kobe but not by all that Much. Lighten up man just having a little fun joking you that's all aint that serious, we can get a rap about this subject. 

Kobe's a good kid a great player and somehow this infuriates people comparing him to Mike, Some people would much rather idolize Iverson who can't even seem to come to practice, Kobe has no street credibility, which is cool but someone who does things the right way should be more of a role model to the kids than a guy who gets arrested and doesn't see the value in practice. Lets rap make your point we cool potna.


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

Yeah, I will agree that Bryant is the only one even close to Jordan. I'm sorry if I made a generalization that wasn't true; I've just seen too many of these things turn into pure mudslinging and it gives me a headache when I know that a debate is just gonna end up in a flame war and everybody mad at each other. Anyways, I'll settle down now. We all know each other's points, so let's just leave it at that.


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

Jazz1 says...

<b>Now to I think ABSOLUTEbest my bad if I'm wrong but I don't know off hand but compare REGGIE career stat to MITCH"S career stat I'd be curiopus to see the results. Reggie is more heralded because of his playoff exploits not neccesarily because he's been a better player ,You can't compare them now because MITCH has a fork in him he's done with bad knees but in both players peaks I bet Mitch had better stats , He never really played on a quality team like Reggie, Reggie played with much better players don't let the current Miller heroics overstate how good he is, He's much more clucth than Mitch because he's had more opportunity to make big plays well anyway MITCH has a ring and Reggie doesn't , so there even though Mitch was carrying KOBE"S bags.</b>

Reggie won't take a ring he didn't earn. Richmonds ring has as much value, or will when he gets it, as a Cracker Jack secret decoder ring. And reg. season stats don't mean a thing. Any Joe Schmoe can put up numbers for a bad team. Ron Mercer outscored Reggie Miller last year. And trust me, I like Merc, but hes no Reg. Just compare Richmond and Miller's playoff stats, that is what is important. Oh, whoops, Rock could never get his squad to the playoffs so he had to jump on the Daddy's coat tails for a ride to the rings. Get outta here with that ish. It's Over... PERIOD! You obviously have it in for Miller.


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

Jazzy 1?


Did Roc ever score 27 points in the fourth quarter of a playoff game?

8 points in the final 13 seconds to mount an impossible comeback?

Hit a 40 foot bank shot to send a 5th and deciding playoff game to OT?

Nail a Conference Finals game winner right in Jordan's face (nobody else has done that to that to my knowledge)?

Guaranteed victory in Game 5 against the Bucks, came out in a superman shirt and scorched them for 46?

Taken two games from the Lakers in the Finals (nobody else has done that.?

Hit a playoff game winner in Iverson's face?

Think about it...

And in 99' that BS Larry Johnson 4-pt play was the only reason we weren't in the Finals. All call most likely made from Commish. Sterns microphone.

Reggie is twice the man Rock Richmond will ever be. Reg has played in 100 playoff game to Rocks 20 for a reason. It's called "heart" and "fire".


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

And put a fork in this Mitch Richmond thing, I think Malakian and I (agreeing for once about something) have easily handled this question.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

Strange to see such loyalty for Reggie, the Rock, or any other player - on a thread entitled: KOBE. 

Hmmmm.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Absolute You haven't handled Jack I agree Reggies Legacy in the game will be better than Mitch's but you need to hill with all the hype, I don't have it in for Reggie Miller I really like him as a player he has heart to a degree but cmon he never brought it to Mike, but thats another story, Name the other 5 guys Mitch played with in Sac town probably can't MILLERS TEAMS WERE WAY MORE TALENTED THAN MITCH"S, heart and fire where were they against the Lakers in the finals oops didn't bring it enough, where were they against Jordan in Game 7 of the EASTERN CONFERENCE FINALS in 98 oops I guess he forgot to bring the heart and fire then too. The MAN AVERAGED 16.5 PPG LAST YEAR AND YOU'RE RANTING AS IF HE WAS PIERCE ,KOBE, TMAC,RAYALLEN OR IVERSON, You admit that Mercer outscored him that should tell you something right there, Millers a GOOD PLAYER NOT GREAT AND his legacy is built on him coming through in the clutch in some key games but greatness is built on ALWAYS COMING THROUGH and 16.5 ppg for an 8th place team just doesn't cut it, he hit a clutch shot in a game they lost SO WHAT THEY LOST. 

PS -JALEN ROSE was the best player on that team before being traded not Miller, 

lETS COMPARE WHO'S BETTER DURING THE SAME ERA

DUMARS
DREXLER
JORDAN 
MILLER 
RICHMOND

1.JORDAN
2.DREXLER
3.DUMARS
4.MILLER
5.RICHMOND

ONLY REASON MILLERS OVER RICHMOND IS BECAUSE YOU'RE RIGHT HIS PLAYOFF HISTORY IS BETTER BY NO FAULT OF MITCH'S SORRY KINGS TEAMS.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: Re: Malakin you're wrong*



> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> "Move LA to the east take off Shaq and you have Kobe Bryant...getting whooped by the Kings in the NBA finals."


You condensed that qoute a bit now didn't you. I said Kobe'd be the MVP and make the finals out of the east w/o Shaq to go against all the people who said he can't lead a team. My point was that people who say how McGrady leads a team don't know what they're talking about because he's never been passed the first round and if he were in the west he'd probably be fighting to stay out of close to last place.

Kobe in my opinoin and others outplayed Duncan I know he didn't grab as many boards but hes a perimeter player. I believe leading the team in the 4th and taking the big shots is probably the most important thing if their stats are similar. Shaq by the way was not an enormous help in the Kobes best games 3 and 4. He also as I said was guarded by an all nba defenseman. 

Now what I meant about guarding Kobe was teams focus in on him. Such as Christie. I only meant that the Spurs signed Bowen for guarding Kobe. Other than that teams just focus a defense around him. Everytime Kobe went from a wing toward the center on Christie Pollard or Webber would come out and guard him. Kenyon Martin did the same for NJ. So they do focus on him.

Many times I hear the announcer say what more could the defender possibly do. or Christie has a dumbfounded look on his face like what can I do.


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

No fault of Richmond???? KG carried some pretty bad teams to the playoffs a few years ago. This is going to the polls? Along with Drexler and Dumars (who both played on better teams than Uncle Reg). I'm sick of it.

And you overemphasize stats. Reggie could easily put up 23 points a game still but he is trying to move the offense into the hands of Al Harrington and Jermaine O' Neal for the benefit of the team. Jalen Rose nothin'. There is another player that looks great on a bad team. I'd rather have Harrington, anyday.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> There's really no point arguing with you on this. You're saying that Bryant is as good as Jordan and I'm saying he's not. "Kobe Lovers" basically think people are stupid for not thinking Bryant is the next Jordan. So, therefore, I won't be able to carry on a reasonable conversation with you, because you don't respect my opinion. You're just gonna keep saying that I'm a "Kobe Hater" and that I'm jealous because there's no way I could honestly think that Bryant is not the next Jordan. We both know each other's arguments already so really the only place left to go is to insult each other, and I don't really want to go there.


He isn't claiming that Kobes as good or better than Jordan. He is simply saying that Kobe is the current Jordan of the league and it's true that if he continues to improve and becomes extremely dominant and has six or more championships people won't think he's better than Mike but they'll tend not to worship Mike as much. Not because KB's better but cause he's new.


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Malakin you're wrong*



> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> You condensed that qoute a bit now didn't you. I said Kobe'd be the MVP and make the finals out of the east w/o Shaq to go against all the people who said he can't lead a team. My point was that people who say how McGrady leads a team don't know what they're talking about because he's never been passed the first round and if he were in the west he'd probably be fighting to stay out of close to last place.


Well, yes, I did condense that quote, because the MVP comment wasn't important to the overall meaning of the sentence. Bryant can't win on his own. That's what YOU said, not me. Maybe that would make Bryant MVP, I don't know.

The Bryant/Duncan thing is just opinion. There's no point talking about it.

As I have written before, I don't understand why you keep explaining to us that Bryant can score lots of points. We already know that. He's expected to score lots of points so he does it, just like O'Neal, Pierce, McGrady, Duncan, etc.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> He would bring the magic farther then tmac did, you could bet on that. Not only cause he could tear apart an opponent but because he could freelance and do whatever he wants.He loves an open game.Hence the all star game he was going crazy.He scored the most points out of all the amazing players out there and on the bench.In the triangle hes stuck and doesnt have a lot of room to operate but he still gets it done..A double team cant stop kobe from scoring with or without Shaq.


That is abunch of ****.
PG:Armstrong
SG:Kobe
SF:Miller
PF:Garrity
C:Grant

Does not do as good as:
PG:Armstrong
SG:McGrady
SF:Miller
PF:Garrity
C:Horace

Kobe would go crazy with a small forward playing power forward, and a power forward playing center. And both of them are stiffs that shoot long shots and don't stay close to the basket! God he would punch them both and the team would go nowhere but after Lebron. I don't see Kobe grabbing 8 rebounds:no: 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the allstar game, Kobe was ballhogging. The point of the allstar game is to pass it around and have fun. Not rack up as many points as you can. I would say McGrady had a better game because he played within the context of the game. While kobe was just trying to score and look pretty.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shaq is not even better than Olajuwon. When they played eachother in both of their primes, Shaq got swept. Nuff said.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kobe + Magic - Shaq - Grant Hill = Lebron James


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Malakian you're not even discussing rationally anymore you're into all out anti Kobe spin, How do you know Kobe would go crazy how , you don't know, Kobe did when the MVP so your thoughts that TMac had a better game is ridiculous, Saying TMac had a good game would be accurate but saying he had a better game is wrong because Kobe was voted officially as having the Best game that day. 

PIERCE = Great
TMac=Great
Kobe= GREATER 

PS REFER TO HORACE GRANT who played with all 3


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## nima86 (Jul 30, 2002)

Everyeone says kobes good cause of sahq and t-mac and vince would be the same. Well we saw a little glimpse of kobe when shaqs gone when he dropped around 30.5 poitns when shaq was out and has anyone of those guys scored 56 points in 3 quarters(shaq was out). And anyone else rember game 6 of the 2000 finals shaq fouls out who won that game for the Lakers. 

Malikian Shaq was putting up those numbers with injuries. Would Duncan play if he had sticthces in his finger, 2 bad ankles, big toe hurting, and a writ problem.


Shaq is the #1 player in the NBA

Reggie + shaq = 0 titles


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Malakian you're not even discussing rationally anymore you're into all out anti Kobe spin, How do you know Kobe would go crazy how , you don't know, Kobe did when the MVP so your thoughts that TMac had a better game is ridiculous, Saying TMac had a good game would be accurate but saying he had a better game is wrong because Kobe was voted officially as having the Best game that day.
> 
> PIERCE = Great
> ...


Kobe winning that MVP doesnt mean a thing. And it doesnt always go to the "best" player or the guy that had the "best" game. It goes to whoever Stern thinks will get the most press. 

Kobe was clearly ball-hogging that game and "Trying" to win the MVP to spite the fans that booed him. And it was a great move to give him the award since it was shown all over TV as Kobe receiving the award and being booed.

Tmac could have won that award if he was trying to. He nearly did and that was playing within the game. Not only that, he made one of the best All-Star moments I have ever seen.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

winning the all-star game mvp doesn't mean much because the game doesn't mean much. kobe's team won by 15 and he was the guy doing alot of the damage. and that's why he won the mvp. deservedly.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> winning the all-star game mvp doesn't mean much because the game doesn't mean much. kobe's team won by 15 and he was the guy doing alot of the damage. and that's why he won the mvp. deservedly.


He also chucked up a ton of shots. Yes, he deserved the MVP though....As did a few other players.


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

Yeah, he deserved the MVP, because he scored the most points on the winning team and was a presence the whole game, but...if McGrady or Iverson had taken that many shots they would have scored just as much. I dunno...


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Kobe in 30 mins was 12 for *25* for 31 pts.

Tmac was 9-15 for 24 pts in 23 mins.

25 shots in an All-Star game? That is a motherload. I'd like to know the last time someone took 25 shots in an All-Star game, or how many times someone has. I think it has been awhile.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

jordan took 24 in scoring 30 in '93. how much criticism do you think he took?


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## DP (Jun 7, 2002)

*KC, Wiggum, Dee Bo*

Iverson was 9-21 with 25 points in 2001 all-star game. He was named MVP. Judging by your reaction, that's still a high number of shots, no ?


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: KC, Wiggum, Dee Bo*



> Originally posted by <b>DP</b>!
> Iverson was 9-21 with 25 points in 2001 all-star game. He was named MVP. Judging by your reaction, that's still a high number of shots, no ?


Absolutely. And, like Bryant, he deserved the MVP award because he was the most important on his team. It's just, it takes away some of the "wow" from the award because there was really nothing preventing McGrady (or Duncan or whoever) from doing the same thing.


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## g-dog-rice (Jun 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Malakian</b>!
> 
> 
> I never said Kobe is only good because of Shaq. I said he is overrated because of Shaq. I said he is a top 10 player, but is not the best player in the league or whatever Laker fans call him. Duncan is great. There is no question he is the best PF in the league. During the playoffs Duncan was guarding Shaq and held him to 20 and 10 while Shaq could not guard him. Remeber Robinson was hurt and played like 18 min. and did not really match up on Shaq because he was afraid he would hurt his back. Shaq will not by a long shot go down as the best center ever. I say Duncan would win with Kobe because he would finally have the help he needs. Who is the second option on the Spurs? Malik Rose? And yet they won 57 games. He carries the team in a way that not even Shaq could. If he had a god perimeter player such as Kobe he would win a championship. Riddle Me This. Paul Pierce on the Spurs with Duncan, and Kobe on the Lakers with Shaq. Who wins? I am very serious Duncan is better. You take Kobe off of the Lakers and you have a team similar to the Spurs. Who does better the Spurs or the Lakers. Let's look:
> ...



What are you talking about?! http://www.ianai.net/jokes/forumpix/banhim.jpg
j/k :laugh:


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Thank you G-Dog


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

Edited By Shadows. Expect a nice Pm from me Malakian


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

I think Malakian's point was pretty simple.

Spurs go 58-24.
Lakers go 58-24.

Spurs have Duncan.
Lakers have O'Neal and Bryant.

That's one superstar whose team got the same record as a team with two superstars. Therefore, if Bryant were better than Duncan, and had another star to help him, wouldn't the Lakers win more games than the Spurs?


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Hmm Wiggum that sure makes sense. Lets see since the Lakers have three peated and in one series beat the Spurs by the biggest point diff. in playoff history and the other series the Spurs were dominated by Kobe Bryant. Yeah I'd say your opinoin of the Spurs and Lakers being comparable teams is extremely accurate buddy:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> I think Malakian's point was pretty simple.
> 
> Spurs go 58-24.
> ...


This isn't a good example, because Shaq was injured a lot of the season and that cost the Lakers about 5 or 6 games.

The Spurs are much more balanced the the Lakers and have more options. 

The only really big offensive weapons the Lakers have are Shaq, Kobe, and Fisher, and Fisher is hardly a big time scorer. 

And Horry only starts playing great during the Playoffs. Therefore it is easy to understand why the Lakers regular season record is the same as the Spurs.

Also remember that the Lakers lead the Spurs 8 games to 1 game in the Playoffs over the last 2 years.

Don't say, "If the Spurs had Pierce", because they don't have Pierce, and in all likelihood.....never will.


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## hOnDo (Jun 26, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Malakian</b>!
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> Hmm Wiggum that sure makes sense. Lets see since the Lakers have three peated and in one series beat the Spurs by the biggest point diff. in playoff history and the other series the Spurs were dominated by Kobe Bryant. Yeah I'd say your opinoin of the Spurs and Lakers being comparable teams is extremely accurate buddy:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


I was just trying to explain Malakian's point more simply. You don't have to get nasty about it.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

G-Dog Rice and Shobe are in denial, and making excuses. You say they will likely never have Pierce, but they willhave cap room. They will go after a Kidd or someone like that. Duncan and Kidd -vs- Shaq and Kobe. I like the Spurs in this matchup.

The playoffs, like i said, is not a fair matchup with 2 stars versus one. Duncan was by far the best player in the series. But, 30 points and 17 rebounds gets beat by 47 points and 15 rebounds. The Spurs have no second scoring option.


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## DP (Jun 7, 2002)

Malakian you're talking about entire fanbase ? 
A Lakerfan ? 
Please don't generalise.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

I meant the ones on this thread who couldn't answer my points and just said I should be banned. I was too lazy to go look at their names so I just said Laker fans. Sorry I insulted you.


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## DP (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Malakian</b>!
> Sorry I insulted you.


LOL it wasn't "Me" I was worried about. Thanks for correcting the post.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

I believe I am the one who doesn't get my posts answered. You post said Kobe was the sixth best player in the league how should I respond to that. It's nonsense. And let me guess we're in denial because the lakers are three time champions and one of the best teams in the leagues history. 

Meanwhile if you watched all the games even Greg Popovich admitted that Kobe outplayed everybody. Kobe clearly dominated the Spurs. For Duncan when crunch time came he dissapeared. Actually he was just missing shots.Duncan also committed ten turnovers in Game 2, the only Spur game they won. Kobe even had a great series after a game 1 injury in which he game back from to make the shot that iced the game. Remember him jumping up and down the floor shouting while Duncan was inable to respond. Oh yeah Kobe had an All D-teamer guardinh him. And what about the year before when Kobe avg.'d 33.3 ppg against the Spurs. 

You know what I actually have been hoping that the Spurs get Kidd. Kidd is one of my favorite players and I would like the Spurs to have a good match up with LA, but think about Shaq is better than Duncan and Kobe's better than Kidd. So the lakers still got the stars. 
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As a Laker Fan if the game is close I feel comfortable in two situations:
1)If Kobe has the ball cause i know it's goining in
--or--
2)If Duncan has the ball cause I know hes gonna miss or get scared and pass it


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

> I believe I am the one who doesn't get my posts answered. You post said Kobe was the sixth best player in the league how should I respond to that. It's nonsense. And let me guess we're in denial because the lakers are three time champions and one of the best teams in the leagues history.


It's not nonsense. He just thinks Bryant is the 6th best player in the league. Grow up and stop insulting people that don't agree with you.



> Meanwhile if you watched all the games even Greg Popovich admitted that Kobe outplayed everybody. Kobe clearly dominated the Spurs. For Duncan when crunch time came he dissapeared. Actually he was just missing shots.Duncan also committed ten turnovers in Game 2, the only Spur game they won. Kobe even had a great series after a game 1 injury in which he game back from to make the shot that iced the game. Remember him jumping up and down the floor shouting while Duncan was inable to respond. Oh yeah Kobe had an All D-teamer guardinh him. And what about the year before when Kobe avg.'d 33.3 ppg against the Spurs.


Well, it's your opinion that Duncan was outplayed. It is my opinion that Duncan was the MVP of that series. "Remember him jumping up and down the floor shouting while Duncan was inable to respond" has nothing to do with the game, you just brought it up to insult Duncan.



> You know what I actually have been hoping that the Spurs get Kidd. Kidd is one of my favorite players and I would like the Spurs to have a good match up with LA, but think about Shaq is better than Duncan and Kobe's better than Kidd. So the lakers still got the stars.


Again, this is your opinion. I think that if the Spurs had Kidd they would sweep the Lakers. Am I wrong for thinking that?


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

In the clutch the Lakers triple teamed Duncan and he had to pass a lot. The problem was there was no one to pass too. Kobe gets single coverage. They aren't goiung to double down on him and leave one on Shaq. Bottom line is, duncan has more responsibilities in the clutch than bryant. Bryant would crumble even worse if he were in Duncan's position.

Here's a breakdown of people iun front of Kobe.

1. Duncan - I've already told you why

2. Shaq - The only center in the league

3. Kidd - Best point guard, true floor general and leader, carried *The Nets* to the Finals.

4. Pierce - The most well rounded player in the league. Doesn't show off, just gets the job done.

5. T-Mac - The Orlando Magic are a CBA team that are a player away from Lebron James. That players name is Tracy.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

it's funny, the magic were a .500 team before mcgrady got there, and the best players on the team were armstrong and mercer.

funny, kidd was never able to carry his team anywhere before going to the east, where his team beat a pierce team that saw their leader shoot 36% in the lossing in 6.


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## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Malakian</b>!
> Kobe gets single coverage. ...Bryant would crumble even worse if he were in Duncan's position


Are you referring to last year's game 3 WCF vs portland where Kobe got double teamed, almost triple teamed, on the last play of the game and what happened next? Crumbling? maybe if you're a Blazer fan, your heart crumbled, but Kobe played it perfectly, passing off to Mr. CASH, Bobby Horry, for the W and the series!!! You weren't talking about that were ya?    

PEACE!

_Side note, clean out your PM's when you get a chance, I've been trying to respond to yours and can't cause your mail box is full.  _


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

No i was talking about Game 5 of 02 WCF when Webber ran at him and instead of passing it to the wide open Horry he turned around and bricked it up. 

No i'm not a Portland fan. I hate the Jail Blazers. 

My PM's are cleaned.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> it's funny, the magic were a .500 team before mcgrady got there, and the best players on the team were armstrong and mercer.


Did they make the playoffs before T-Mac came to town?



> funny, kidd was never able to carry his team anywhere before going to the east, where his team beat a pierce team that saw their leader shoot 36% in the lossing in 6.


 agreed. But it takes a special player to take the NBA's ugly step child *the Nets* to the Finals. Even if it is the East.


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## BizzyRipsta (May 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Malakian</b>!
> agreed. But it takes a special player to take the NBA's ugly step child *the Nets* to the Finals. Even if it is the East.


lmao! i live in new jersey, and the nets have always been one of my favorite teams (that means that i've liked them for about 10-11 years already). if you told me 10 years ago that the nets would be going to the nba finals, i would have said that you were dreaming. actually, if you told me last year that the nets were going to the nba finals, i wouldn't have believed you.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

oops I hope I didn't offend you


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## BizzyRipsta (May 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Malakian</b>!
> oops I hope I didn't offend you


lol...not at all...as a matter of fact, i found it pretty humorous the way you stated that.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Malakian</b>!
> 
> 
> Did they make the playoffs before T-Mac came to town?


no, the addition of tmac resulted in 2 more wins for the magic, getting them to the playoffs.

they weren't quite a cba team pre-tmac.





> Originally posted by <b>Malakian</b>!
> 
> agreed. But it takes a special player to take the NBA's ugly step child *the Nets* to the Finals. Even if it is the East.


the nets history isn't quite as important as the current group of players and mgmt they have. and again, making the finals in the east doesn't mean they're a great team.

the same special player couldn't seem to do much come playoff time on arguably better teams out west.


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## BizzyRipsta (May 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> the nets history isn't quite as important as the current group of players and mgmt they have.


many fans believe that the nets have been cursed ever since they let dr.j go, so their history is relevant.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

*Malakin* 
Was the time that the Nets triple teamed Kobe in Game 3 and he still put it in and example of Kobe being single coveraged in the clutch.

If your going to bring up the 1 of 2 times that KB failed in the late moments I would gladly bring up the many many times he succeeded. 

How does Paul Pierce have a better all around game than Kobe?
I think that your TMAC and CBA Magic feeling was proved wrong.

Shaq is the best every coach and GM in the league would agree.
Most coaches and GMs would agree that KObe is second best. Thats true. 

I feel however that you can argue Tim Duncan or Jason Kidd cause they both have their reasons except Kidds shooting is weak. Personally I prefer KBs game over either of them. Most of the league agrees with that. The Sporting News poled the GMs and personal men and they picked Shaq,KB,Duncan. I have felt since Duncan stepped foot in the league that he was overated


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> How does Paul Pierce have a better all around game than Kobe?
> I think that your TMAC and CBA Magic feeling was proved wrong.


Nothing has been "proved" here. It's opinion. Why can't you understand that?

Paul Pierce ('01-'02):

40.3 MPG
26.1 PPG*
6.9 RPG*
3.2 APG
1.9 SPG*
1.1 BPG*
.442 FG%
.404 3P%*
.809 FT%

Kobe Bryant ('01-'02):

38.3 MPG
25.2 PPG
5.5 RPG
5.5 APG*
1.5 SPG
0.4 BPG
.469 FG%*
.250 3P%
.829 FT%*

Considering they get pretty much equal playing time, I'd say that that's close enough for it to be your own opinion. Why does it have to be "Kobe's better - you're wrong!"? Why can't you just let someone have their opinion?


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## STING (May 29, 2002)

That is exactly true, alot of Kobe fans get indignant around here because people talk about why they think T-Mac is better. 

I'm not saying they all do, but I have yet to see one of those threads without a laker fan calling someone a "hater" because his opinion differs from their's. 

I don't think Kobe is a top 5 player, so does that make me a hater? It would if i hated Kobe, which I don't.

Let people have their opinions, it works so much better that way.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

I wasn't talking about the Magic of 2 years ago, I was talking about the Magic of now. 

Magic without Grady:
Armstrong
Mike Miller
Pat Garrity
Horace Grant
Steven Hunter

Bench
Oluyoide?
Griffith
Deqlerq?


Do you not see how many bums are on this team?

This is the worst team in the league:yes:


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

I also like Pierce better because he doesn't show off and flex his muscles like Kobe.


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