# Rose, and Bayless



## AlThornton (Mar 5, 2007)

I have seen Rose a few times, and he seems to have jets on the back of his shoes. Also from watching him a few times he seems to have elite finishing ability around the basket. I have not seem Bayless much except for the game today vs Washington.

Both are listed at 6'3" but Derrick looks quite a bit stronger than Jerryd.

Who has the better basketball IQ?
Who is the better defender?
Who would you rather have leading your team?

Can you gives me examples who they play like?


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

Rose's defensive potential >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bayless' defensive potential, which is what keeps Bayless from being discussed at the very top of the draft.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Jerryd has so much more offensive potential than Derrick Rose. Rose shoots like a monkey. He needs to REALLY work on his shot. Talking about defense from the point guard position is a losing proposition, because quite truthfully the best defensive pg's almost always are bench guards like Lindsey Hunter, Jacque Vaughn, Marcus Banks.


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## AlThornton (Mar 5, 2007)

HKF said:


> Jerryd has so much more offensive potential than Derrick Rose. Rose shoots like a monkey. He needs to REALLY work on his shot. Talking about defense from the point guard position is a losing proposition, because quite truthfully the best defensive pg's almost always are bench guards like Lindsey Hunter, Jacque Vaughn, Marcus Banks.


Theres probably some truth to that because points handle the ball the most, so they get tired the most. Therefore they can't put forth the same effort as backups.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

You don't want to be Steve Nash on defense, but I'd rather have Steve Nash with defensive deficiencies than have Kirk Hinrich who supposedly is a great defender, but is really average passing, shooting, creating, basically anything that has to do with scoring.

If Rose doesn't fix his shot, he will be closer to Randy Livingston (one knee injury away) than Jason Kidd.


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## AlThornton (Mar 5, 2007)

Is Rose shot really that bad?

I mean he is shooting 48% from the field, and 36% from 3. I mean nothing special but its not that bad.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

He shot pretty well today, but against good competition he has been reluctant to take open jump shots. Those numbers look good because he has gotten a high percentage of layups and dunks. When it comes NCAA tournament time, you'll see what I'm talking about.


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

HKF said:


> Jerryd has so much more offensive potential than Derrick Rose. Rose shoots like a monkey. He needs to REALLY work on his shot. Talking about defense from the point guard position is a losing proposition, because quite truthfully the best defensive pg's almost always are bench guards like Lindsey Hunter, Jacque Vaughn, Marcus Banks.


Well, Kidd and Payton were great defending PGs that were also stars. Wade's a star combo that's also a great defender and doesn't have a great shot. 

There aren't many athletic freaks that have excellent jumpshots, so that doesn't concern me too much.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

See, I guess we can cite anomalies like Kidd and Payton, but then you see all the intangibles those two brought to the game, i.e. passing, leadership, the ability to make others better, good free throw shooting. Wade isn't a great defender at all. Where are you getting that from? Wade is a great offensive player.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Wade could be a great defender, has been 1st Team once I believe....but he has been a big time sloucher on D of late.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Wade plays very good defense in spurts, but he also gets in trouble sometimes when is gambling too much and he also does save himself at times to have gas left on offense. All in all he is a solid (mediocre because inconsistent) defender with the potential to make some momentum changing defensive plays. 

I am not really concerned about Rose's jumpshot, he will have to work on it, but it's not broken. A lot of good players with allround skills didn't have a reliable jumpshot when they came into the league, Lebron, Wade, Paul or others all did improve in that area and can hit that midrange shot on a consistent base now.


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## Bangle (Nov 14, 2006)

I have seen Bayless a number of times this year...he is very strong and has an AMAZING jumper. He's a complete player. He's a stud and you really don't hear a lot of people talking about him. His shooting mechanics are perfect IMO. Rose not so much. Rose has a great handle and is powerful, but at this stage I just think Jerryd is better. Rose is DEFINITELY a better point though. He has good court vison. Just my opinion...Jerryd is very good on D. and it shows he has been taught well. I'd take Jerryd because he just has a winning swagger to him that makes people better. Heck I think Arizona is like 1-3 without him, and 12-3 with him lol. I saw this mixtape of him the other day:worthy:...enjoy. http://youtube.com/watch?v=8hu1FCRzYkE


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## number1pick (May 24, 2007)

Right now Rose is more developed physically than Bayless. Not sure who has the better bball IQ but I do know that they are different types of players. Rose is more of a pure PG while Bayless is more of a combo PG. Right now and I think eventually Rose is/will be the better defender. He's stronger, quicker, and more explosive. Bayless is much better offensively right now. Rose will probably get better once he gets to the pro's and can work with a shooting coach on a consistent basis. I'd rather have Rose leading my team. I think he's a guy that will make everyone better and is always looking to set up others first, while Bayless is more of a scoring PG.

To me, Rose is more like Jason Kidd. I think he'll eventually end up as a D-Wade type. Elite finishing ability, and his shot is going to get better all the time. Bayless is more on the side of Billups. A guy who can put the ball in the basket but is going to be a great PG because he understands the game. At Zona he's asked to play the 2 mostly but his calling in the NBA is at the PG position so he will have to learn. 

Personally, I'd rather have Rose. My favorite player is Kidd and I'm a huge fan of both Nash and Chris Paul. All 3 of those guys are pass-first pure PG's, but I don't think you can go wrong with either.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Derrick Rose: 19 games, 14.3 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.2 spg, 48 FG%, 36 3P%, 68 FT% (6'4 195 lbs)
Jerryd Bayless: 16 games, 19.9 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.0 spg, 48 FG%, 45 3P%, 86 FT% (6'3 190 lbs)

Honestly, what makes Rose like Jason Kidd, because he sure as hell does not pass like Jason Kidd. So what about Jason Kidd are you seeing in Derrick Rose? Kidd was a great passer on the college level from DAY ONE. I see people downplaying Bayless simply because he is way above average offensively. The guy does look to pass and even averages more assists on a team with not nearly the same amount of weapons (Hill and Budinger and that's it). He also doesn't play in a free-wheeling system as Kevin O'Neill has the Wildcats playing almost strict halfcourt basketball.

To say that Bayless isn't strong is kind of odd too, because he takes bumps and finishes better than most guards in college right now and his mid-range jumper is money. He is deadly off of picks and off of the bounce. Just because the kid is money as an offensive player doesn't mean he doesn't have other skills. It seems chic to pick Rose, but then again I have been trying to figure out the infatuation with him since he was 16. Yeah he could end up great, but he sure has LOTS of question marks. 

I will revisit this in March. I know Arizona has no chance in hell with that roster, but I am interested to see how Rose performs under the bright lights. I have a feeling Douglas-Roberts will be bailing Memphis out yet again.


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## number1pick (May 24, 2007)

I'm not saying Bayless isn't strong but Rose is physically better than him right now. He's a better athlete than Bayless also. Just look at the two players. If you actually watch the games and don't just focus on the stats you'll understand. Memphis is stacked at every position. Rose doesn't have to create for EVERYONE on the team. Kidd's cal teams weren't that great he had to create and be a great passer. Rose doesn't have to create and control the entire offense because of how good his team is. 

Also, Roberts is the #1 option on that team. He's the go-to guy in the clutch. He's the best offensive player on the team because he can drive in and shoot it. The team does not depend on Rose's offense to win games. Yes he averages 14 pts but they have a lot of other guys that can bring that to the table.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Memphis is not stacked at every position. That is unless you believe that Antonio Anderson, Willie Kemp, Shawn Taggert and Doneal Mack are future NBA studs. Those guys are fringe D-League players at best. Memphis wins because of their defense, they could stand to be much better on offense (and at the free throw line) and yes I watch Memphis thus my questions abound about his decision making at the point guard spot.


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## number1pick (May 24, 2007)

Memphis has the most talent in the NCAA, the only other team that measures up is maybe Kansas. Rose doesn't have to be the sole creator on offense is my point. They have a lot of guys that can create and score on that team.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

I don't think that horrible juco system that Calipari is running sets his point guard up to get a lot of assists.


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## number1pick (May 24, 2007)

Memphis' system doesn't allow for guys to rack up a lot of assists b/c its open and free flowing. They don't rebound give them ball the the PG and walk it up or rebound throw the outlet to the PG and push it occasionally. The push the ball regardless of who has it(excluding Dorsey). But you are right the system doesn't allow one guy to rack up assists.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Kansas has the most talent in the NCAA by the way, and really Rose has great ball handling skills but he doesn't look like a true point out there. Even the simple drive and dish is a rarity for him. Especially since he gets into the lane so easily.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

I don't see a lot of Kidd in him except for the potential to have gaudy allround stats one day.


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## BigMac (Jan 14, 2005)

is he anything like Wade?


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

yes i think wade is a better comparison
but Rose will probably be a better 3pt shooter but not quite as good as Wade at gettin to the basket/finishin in the lane(few are)


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

HKF said:


> He shot pretty well today, but against good competition he has been reluctant to take open jump shots. Those numbers look good because he has gotten a high percentage of layups and dunks. When it comes NCAA tournament time, you'll see what I'm talking about.


He took and made those shots against Gonzaga which is some pretty damn good competition. The reason he has gotten a high percentage of dunks/layups is because nobody can stop him from getting in the lane and he has done it against some great competition on the OOC slate. He has the best floater/teardrop in the all of college basketball. He will continue to get in the lane at will in the tournament. Your boy Bayless is every bit the player Rose is but to say one is better than the other is a blank statement at this point. Bayless is a better 2 guard while Rose is a better PG.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

For someone who is a better 2 guard, he gets more assists than Rose and he plays next to Nic Wise and Budinger who also handle the ball. I don't get why Rose is a better PG. Arizona has played the toughest OOC in the nation. Again, let's look at these stats:

Derrick Rose: 19 games, 14.3 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.2 spg, 48 FG%, 36 3P%, 68 FT% (6'4 195 lbs)
Jerryd Bayless: 16 games, 19.9 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.0 spg, 48 FG%, 45 3P%, 86 FT% (6'3 190 lbs)


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

HKF said:


> For someone who is a better 2 guard, he gets more assists than Rose and he plays next to Nic Wise and Budinger who also handle the ball. I don't get why Rose is a better PG. Arizona has played the toughest OOC in the nation. Again, let's look at these stats:
> 
> Derrick Rose: 19 games, 14.3 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.2 spg, 48 FG%, 36 3P%, 68 FT% (6'4 195 lbs)
> Jerryd Bayless: 16 games, 19.9 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.0 spg, 48 FG%, 45 3P%, 86 FT% (6'3 190 lbs)


And Rose has to deal with 3-5 other guys who handle the ball, plus the Memphis system isn't very well built for a PG to get a ton of assists. Bayless is a good PG but he sin't a better one than Rose, over time he may end up being better at the one than Rose. I will say this Bayless would be getting as much hype as Rose, Gordon if he was on the East Coast. I'm extremely impressed with him as a player and IMO should be a top5-10 pick this year.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Rose isn't on the East Coast. He plays for Memphis. Memphis isn't the East Coast last I checked. I think it has more to do with people saying he's a top 5 pick for so long, they don't want to admit they might have miscalculated (i.e. other guys are just as good as he is). Obviously Rose is a very talented player, but I am trying to figure out "WHY" he is better than Bayless. What actually separates him from Bayless, because it's not their play on the basketball court. 

Bayless doesn't lack of athleticism, reference his jam right down the pike on Illinois at the United Center. Rose is a super athlete, but I think people are blinded by that fact, thinking he will be able to get to the rim at will in the NBA. We heard the same things last year with Mike Conley Jr., and while he does get to the rim, when he isn't making jump shots it makes it much harder for him to do so.

Chris Paul is an anomaly, simply because his quickness and ability to hit shots from the foul line off of pull up jumpers makes him so dangerous. Of the top 10 assist makers (that are point guards, so not including Lebron) in the NBA this year:

Nash 11.9 
Paul 10.5
Kidd 10.4
Williams 9.4
Tinsley 8.6
Calderon 8.6
Davis 8.1
Felton 7.1
Billups 7.0
Iverson 6.9

Of this group, the only two guys who could be considered weak jumpshooters would be Jason Kidd and Raymond Felton. The other guys with the exception of Tinsley because the Pacers are a mess, are all on winning teams and have the ability to score when needed both going to the rim or shooting the jumper. Is it a coincidence that they are all doing so well? Maybe in the old NBA you could get away with not being able to stretch the D with perimeter shooting, but with the zone and packing the D in, if he doesn't improve his jumper it will be a problem.

A good example of this is Kyle Lowry, Sebastian Telfair and Rajon Rondo. All are from the same HS class (2004), but Jordan Farmar has a better chance to succeed than his high school contemporaries because he has the threat of making outside shots. All three guys are better than him going to the rim, yet many nights they go 2-11, because they can't get the defense to stop sagging off them. Are they NBA guards? Without question, but they would be way above average if they could consistently knock down perimeter shots which would in turn make their teams better and their games more dangerous.


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## AlThornton (Mar 5, 2007)

HKF-

Do you have any highlight videos of Bayless? I searched youtube and I didn't see much of him except for his high school days. Looking for his Arizona highlights.

Thanks


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## Seanzie (Jun 9, 2003)

Man, HKF gets pretty upset if anyone infringes on his boy's territory.

I look at it like this: right now, as far as individual performance goes, Bayless is outperforming Rose. Then again, he has to, because he's on a mostly depleted team, where he's the clear #2 option (or moreso a 1b. to Budinger's 1a.). Rose is on a VERY deep Memphis team (maybe not in terms of NBA talent, but definitely in terms of college talent), and doesn't have to be THE guy.

I think where people rank Rose higher than Bayless in NBA Draft circles is due to the intangibles. Rose DOES play better defense, is faster, is a better ball handler, and is a freak athletically. That's not to take anything away from Bayless, because he is quick, is a good ball handler, and is athletic. Just not as much.

I think they'll both be good players in the NBA. However, I can much more easily see Rose being a dominant player ala Wade, whereas I see Bayless being an athletic version of Chauncey Billups (only, succeeding more early on). 

But HKF, please don't hate me, because I am a big Bayless fan. Just stating opinions and justifications here.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Nah, I won't hate you, but I still don't know how how Rose is a better ballhandler when both have the ability to get to the rim. Bayless doesn't average more turnovers than Rose either. He might play better defense, but no one has dominated Bayless on the defensive end at all and he played against Kansas that has a trio of tough guards. I don't see the Billups comparison because Bayless gets to the rim quite easily. If Arizona had more weapons besides Buds and Hill, this guy would be getting 8 assists per game. I don't think we should be taking points away from him, because he happens to be a capable scorer.


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## AlThornton (Mar 5, 2007)

HKF is making me like Bayless more and more.

If you were Seattle and they had the #2 pick in the draft would you take Bayless?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Ummm, I am not sure. If I was Sacramento, I would take Bayless. If I am Seattle and our team is simply going to be a running team, I would probably take Rose. I don't have the ability to watch these guys work out against one another. Still need more time.


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## number1pick (May 24, 2007)

If you don't think Rose will be able to get to the rim at will in the NBA look at Tony Parker. His first few years his jumper was wildly inconsistent but b/c he is so quick he is able to get into the lane. Rose is the same. He's so explosive and fast and has such great leaping ability and body control he should be able to get into the lane and finish. His jumper will improve as he gets more coaching and his mechanics get improved. Bayless is a better offensive player right now, there's no doubt, but I think Rose will end up being the better PG and player in the NBA, and I compare Bayless to Billups not because of shooting, I know Bayless can get to the rim and finish with the best in the NCAA, but because right now he has to be more of a combo guard which is what Billups was early in his career.


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## Seanzie (Jun 9, 2003)

HKF said:


> Nah, I won't hate you, but I still don't know how how Rose is a better ballhandler when both have the ability to get to the rim. Bayless doesn't average more turnovers than Rose either. He might play better defense, but no one has dominated Bayless on the defensive end at all and he played against Kansas that has a trio of tough guards. I don't see the Billups comparison because Bayless gets to the rim quite easily. If Arizona had more weapons besides Buds and Hill, this guy would be getting 8 assists per game. I don't think we should be taking points away from him, because he happens to be a capable scorer.


The athletic version of Billups thing comes from the fact that they're similar in size, and I think their abilities to hit the outside shot is similar. Bayless is faster, and will finish at the rim FAR better, but that's why I think he'll be an "athletic" version of Billups.

I think Bayless will max out at something like 18 PPG, 7 APG, 1.5 SPG in an NBA career. Billups-esque numbers.


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## Priest (Jun 24, 2003)

After a while when your a certain age its hard to change that passive nature. Rose just doesn't have it at this point and im afraid he won't develop it in the future. How many "Potential" guards turned out to be good? Scouts know what they cvould get out of bayless Rose is more of a question mark. But as a pg rose is better


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## Seanzie (Jun 9, 2003)

Priest said:


> After a while when your a certain age its hard to change that passive nature. Rose just doesn't have it at this point and im afraid he won't develop it in the future. How many "Potential" guards turned out to be good? Scouts know what they cvould get out of bayless Rose is more of a question mark. But as a pg rose is better


Okay, let's just say you put Rose on a different team. Let's say... he plays for... oh, I don't know... Miami of Florida. They have an okay team, but they lack a dominant player. I can guarantee you Rose would put up HUGE numbers. I'm talking 25, 5, 8, 2. But, that's not the case. He's a PG on a deep team with several perimeter players. 

D.J. Augustin and what's-his-face (name escapes me right now) for Texas were pretty passive last year. Now Durant's gone, and the two of them are lighting the nation up.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I don't think Rose would put up those kinds of numbers at all. Jack McClinton is a very good guard on Miami and he shares the ball with two other young guards in Rios and I forgot the other dude's name.


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## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

Yeah he might score a little more, but McClinton might even average more than him.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

I don't know and maybe it is just a feeling, but Bayless reminds me of Jason Kidd and I don't mean that in a good way...he will be a great great player, but never quite getting along with people.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Jason Kidd ran off his old college coach at Cal. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Jason Kidd has been a jerk behind the scenes for years, always sabotaging his coaches from Campinelli to Buckner to Skiles to Scott.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Seanzie said:


> Okay, let's just say you put Rose on a different team. Let's say... he plays for... oh, I don't know... Miami of Florida. They have an okay team, but they lack a dominant player. I can guarantee you Rose would put up HUGE numbers. I'm talking 25, 5, 8, 2. But, that's not the case. He's a PG on a deep team with several perimeter players.
> 
> D.J. Augustin and what's-his-face (name escapes me right now) for Texas were pretty passive last year. Now Durant's gone, and the two of them are lighting the nation up.


And at Wisconsin where he would be the best player by far, he would average 12/3/3. Big deal.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Priest said:


> After a while when your a certain age its hard to change that passive nature. Rose just doesn't have it at this point and im afraid he won't develop it in the future. How many "Potential" guards turned out to be good? Scouts know what they cvould get out of bayless Rose is more of a question mark. But as a pg rose is better


Rose is more of a question mark? Man thats a ridiculous statement. Rose has already improved his jumpshot greatly from when he was in High School. He handles the ball very well, and is crazy athletic. If Rose has huge question marks then Bayless does as well because other than Rose being slightly more athletic and Bayless having a better J there isn't much difference between the two.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

HKF said:


> Jason Kidd ran off his old college coach at Cal. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Jason Kidd has been a jerk behind the scenes for years, always sabotaging his coaches from Campinelli to Buckner to Skiles to Scott.


He has but I hope that guy was comparing Bayless, and Kidd's game because Jerryd seems nothing like Kidd off the court. Everything I have heard about him says he's very well liked, hard-working, and a humble kid.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

I havent seen much of Bayless to make/pass judgment on his ability to translate to the NBA, but from reports would it be fair to say that his game is akin to Deron Williams, except slightly more explosive. Because I think Rose's game translates/mirrors Chris Paul's (explosive off the dribble, defensively strong, questions about his jumper)...


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I think Rose is more talented and likely to have a better impact on the pro level. Bayless' build worries me, the elevation he gets on his shots makes me wonder how often he is going to get blocked. Neither are true points by the way.


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## Priest (Jun 24, 2003)

bball2223 said:


> Rose is more of a question mark? Man thats a ridiculous statement. Rose has already improved his jumpshot greatly from when he was in High School. He handles the ball very well, and is crazy athletic. If Rose has huge question marks then Bayless does as well because other than Rose being slightly more athletic and Bayless having a better J there isn't much difference between the two.


High school? we cant use high school as a measuring stick for shooting ability because in college he hasnt been decent when it comes to shooting. Yes with bayless teams know they are getting a guard that can score and play good defense. his passing ability thus far is above average and he isnt the main ball handler on the team. I wouldnt even say rose is a better athlete; he has a better basketball body cause of his long arms


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## Priest (Jun 24, 2003)

HB said:


> I think Rose is more talented and likely to have a better impact on the pro level. Bayless' build worries me, the elevation he gets on his shots makes me wonder how often he is going to get blocked. Neither are true points by the way.


Elevation? He gets up very high on his jump shot. But im with you on the build

I hope bayless and mayo guard eachother tommorow


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Priest said:


> *Elevation? He gets up very high on his jump shot.* But im with you on the build


Against college players.


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## AlThornton (Mar 5, 2007)

I thought Bayless's elevation on his J was one of his strengths?
anyways i cant wait to see him tomorrow vs USC and saturday vs UCLA.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Priest said:


> High school? we cant use high school as a measuring stick for shooting ability because in college he hasnt been decent when it comes to shooting. Yes with bayless teams know they are getting a guard that can score and play good defense. his passing ability thus far is above average and he isnt the main ball handler on the team. I wouldnt even say rose is a better athlete; he has a better basketball body cause of his long arms


I'm talking about his mechanics and how they have improved he is a way better shooter than he was a year ago. With more repetition he will become more consistent.


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## Priest (Jun 24, 2003)

bball2223 said:


> I'm talking about his mechanics and how they have improved he is a way better shooter than he was a year ago. With more repetition he will become more consistent.



i agree and hopefully it'll continue


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