# Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?



## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

Who on our team is going to be guarding T-MAC, Kobe, Artest etc...

Gordon is too short to guard those guys IMO....


Deng?


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> Who on our team is going to be guarding T-MAC, Kobe, Artest etc...
> 
> Gordon is too short to guard those guys IMO....
> ...


This is exactly why all of the height is irrelevant nonsense is just that.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> This is exactly why all of the height is irrelevant nonsense is just that.


I think that height is irrelevant on offense... but we better grab a SG/SF player who is around 6ft 6in or 6ft 7in who can play defense.... and nooooooooo Lint is NOT that guy...


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> I think that height is irrelevant on offense... but we better grab a SG/SF player who is around 6ft 6in or 6ft 7in who can play defense.... and nooooooooo Lint is NOT that guy...


It is irrelevant on offense if you are a PF/C type who shoots close to the basket. 

It is a helluva lot different story when you are a 6' foot something trying to shoot over an opposing player if he has several inches on you and has an equal or larger vertical. I'd say 60+% of the time, he is going to alter your shot, which is never good.

On defense, it can create massive problems as well, because you cannot alter shots when you give up that much size. So, yet again, the better shooters will have lights out, field days on us.

The only way two guards works is in a serious uptempo style, but then you are going to misuse Curry and Chandler IMO. However, it can become irrelevant if all of our team improves significantly and plays GREAT team defense a la the Detroit Pistons of the late 80s and early 90s.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

the same question: who is going to defend Shaq and Yao?

Bulls fans, make it easy, think about the playoffs only.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> I think that height is irrelevant on offense... but we better grab a SG/SF player who is around 6ft 6in or 6ft 7in who can play defense.... and nooooooooo Lint is NOT that guy...


Cmon, of course LJ3 is the guy.
They call him the Night Manager because he's the one that cleans up and shuts down.

:laugh:


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> the same question: who is going to defend Shaq and Yao?
> 
> Bulls fans, make it easy, think about the playoffs only.


ummmmm Curry, Chandler, Williams, Davis  

we don't have any matchup problems height wise down low.......


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>JRose5</b>!
> 
> 
> Cmon, of course LJ3 is the guy.
> ...


LJ3 can go to Dickey Simpkin's house and have long talks about who the worst Bull to ever wear #8 is....


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

In answer to the first question, I desperately hope we sign either Stephen Jackson, Rodney White, or Bruce Bowen. Honestly, I think Rodney is the guy in which the price is right. He can even D up shooting guards when he's got his head in the game.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> In answer to the first question, I desperately hope we sign either Stephen Jackson, Rodney White, or Bruce Bowen. Honestly, I think Rodney is the guy in which the price is right. He can even D up shooting guards when he's got his head in the game.


between those 3 White is the most realistic option... I think Jackson would be the best but I just don't see him coming to the Bulls. Bowen is older and probably will want to go to a contending team... White is young and will, like you said, probably come cheapest...


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I should also add that if we would have drafted my guy Iguodala as well as Deng, we wouldn't have had to worry about this. Now whether we would have had anyone who could score is another question.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> I should also add that if we would have drafted my guy Iguodala as well as Deng, we wouldn't have had to worry about this. Now whether we would have had anyone who could score is another question.


you ARE right... my ideal draft would have had us draft both of them because it would have filled our needs to a tee.... however you don't pass on a player that is supposedly as good as Gordon for Iguodala...

Why take a scottie pippen when you may have a michael jordan?

I guess that was the thinking...


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> you ARE right... my ideal draft would have had us draft both of them because it would have filled our needs to a tee.... however you don't pass on a player that is supposedly as good as Gordon for Iguodala...
> ...


Well, it's pretty clear Iguodala was not Paxson's guy. He had two chances to grab him and chose other players. I can only hope he made the right choice. I like both Gordon and Deng a lot, but I am concerned abound the ripple effect on defense of Gordon at the 2. 

Look for Iguodala to blow up in Philly. I think he wound up on his perfect team. Look not far down the road for AI to start at point guard and still act like a shooting guard while Iguodala will play shooting guard and act like a point guard next to him. I am expecting big things from Iguodala, particularly in Philly.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> LJ3 can go to Dickey Simpkin's house and have long talks about who the worst Bull to ever wear #8 is....


I always hated Simpkins, but then Johnson came around last year and he was even more painful to watch.
Although the rest of the team wasn't any better.



I've recently liked what I've heard about White, he may not be perfect but he'd be worth it if he was cheap.
I'd prefer Jackson, but I don't see it happening either.
I'm not a huge fan of Bowen, really.
If White is to be had for cheap, I think that'd be the best option.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> Who on our team is going to be guarding T-MAC, Kobe, Artest etc...
> 
> Gordon is too short to guard those guys IMO....
> ...


JC? i m sure he will do a very good job on it too. i mean man cmon, hes TALL, long, and quick. hes going to lock down t-mac,kobe, and alike.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>Sith</b>!
> 
> 
> JC? i m sure he will do a very good job on it too. i mean man cmon, hes TALL, long, and quick. hes going to lock down t-mac,kobe, and alike.


I hate to say it, but Crawford will not be on the Bulls roster next season...


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Seems to me an equally valid question is who is TMac going to guard: Hinrich or Gordon? Can he keep up with either one?

BTW, exactly who in the league can guard TMac, anyway? ;-)


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

*LJ3?*

It looks like we have the makings of a B-action movie on our hands...

Treat Williams is...
LJ3: Night Manager 
"He cleans up...and *shuts down!*"
Also starring Corey Feldman as "R-Dupe the sidekick" and Shannon Tweed as "Genevieve the innocent love interest who will end up being taken hostage at some point, prompting LJ3 to have to choose between his own life..._and love_"

Coming soon straight to a video store near you...


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

*Re: LJ3?*



> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> Also starring Corey Feldman as "R-Dupe the sidekick"


:laugh:


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Gordon has two things going for him, strength and wingspan. This makes someone like Bobby Jackson one of the best defenders in the NBA. We'll see how Gordon will D up in the pros.

As for Crawford I have never liked his defense at the 1 or 2.


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## MiSTa iBN (Jun 16, 2002)

I saw Lindsey Hunter D up Kobe, I'm not too worried about the superstar shooting guards, they're gonna get their points regardless on who they play against.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I can suggest two more G/F's to add to our "please help us stop TMac" list:

Demarr Johnson, 6'9", 24 years old, unrestricted 
Rasual Butler, 6'7", 25 years old,restricted


I'm really happy for Demarr he made it back on to an NBA roster, although he didn't really get much floor time on the Knicks last year. I can't really say I know how good his D is, or Rasual for that matter. Who can tell me more about these guys?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Assuming Pax is smart enough to match offers for Crawford it will be JC guarding those types of players. According to what I read recently JC is working on his weight training in Washington so that should help his defense dramatically when it comes to fighting through screens. And Jamal has d-d up some good players like Pierce and T-Mac effectively in the past when he has had good nights.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> Assuming Pax is smart enough to match offers for Crawford it will be JC guarding those types of players. According to what I read recently JC is working on his weight training in Washington so that should help his defense dramatically when it comes to fighting through screens. And Jamal has d-d up some good players like Pierce and T-Mac effectively in the past when he has had good nights.


One of Crawford's finest games this year was the one where he handled Lebron on D and outplayed him on O.

Can Tommy Smith guard a large shooting guard? He's more of a SF/PF than a SG/SF I think.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> One of Crawford's finest games this year was the one where he handled Lebron on D and outplayed him on O.
> ...


No, Tommy Smith is definitley more a sf/pf. Many would argue that he is strictly a pf, I think he is more of a sf in the NBA. In any case, he definitley is no lock down defender.

Yeah, Jamal did have a good game against Lebron, of course the two are good friends and he has probably played against him plenty in the past and knows how to guard him too.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> Assuming Pax is smart enough to match offers for Crawford it will be JC guarding those types of players. According to what I read recently JC is working on his weight training in Washington so that should help his defense dramatically when it comes to fighting through screens. And Jamal has d-d up some good players like Pierce and T-Mac effectively in the past when he has had good nights.


Its good to hear Crawford is hitting in the weights in Washington, anything's better then nothing.

I actually think Crawford can be a good defender as much as he gets slammed for it.
His only physical knock is that he's skinny, and that can be fixed, especially if he's in the weight room now.


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## WookiesOnRitalin (Jan 22, 2004)

Eric Williams? Stephen Jackson? Bruce Bowen?

We should be able to get one of them hopefully.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> Yeah, Jamal did have a good game against Lebron, of course the two are good friends and he has probably played against him plenty in the past and knows how to guard him too.


Crawford is 6 years older than Lebron, when in the past would they have played?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JRose5</b>!
> 
> 
> Its good to hear Crawford is hitting in the weights in Washington, anything's better then nothing.
> ...


thats exactly right. Jamal isn't a BAD defender per se, it's more that he lacks the necessary strength to fight through screens. You run him through a couple of screens and you lost him. He also isn't a good post defender because of strength issues. But technically he has the fundamentals to be a solid defender. Last season a lot of the time the Bulls were running a defensive scheme where Jamal was often suppossed to allow his man to get by him on one side...theoretically so he could meet our big man in the paint and get into trouble. But, our big men were slow on recognizing rotations and we got burned a lot doing that. I would prefer them to just say "go guard the guy straight up" as I think doing what they had him do sometimes makes Jamal look like a bad defender when he is actually doing what he is suppossed to.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Crawford is 6 years older than Lebron, when in the past would they have played?


Beats me. They ARE good friends though so I imagine they have played a few games of 1 on 1 at some point.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> thats exactly right. Jamal isn't a BAD defender per se, it's more that he lacks the necessary strength to fight through screens. You run him through a couple of screens and you lost him. He also isn't a good post defender because of strength issues. But technically he has the fundamentals to be a solid defender. Last season a lot of the time the Bulls were running a defensive scheme where Jamal was often suppossed to allow his man to get by him on one side...theoretically so he could meet our big man in the paint and get into trouble. But, our big men were slow on recognizing rotations and we got burned a lot doing that. I would prefer them to just say "go guard the guy straight up" as I think doing what they had him do sometimes makes Jamal look like a bad defender when he is actually doing what he is suppossed to.


Ace, for the 5000th time... lack of strength isn't what is holding Jamal back from being a good defender. And no he does not have good fundamentals on defense. If you need me to elaborate, please just ask.

While we're at it, lack of strength isn't what is holding Jamal back from becoming a slasher and finisher either. Just thought I'd add that to the discussion


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Ace, for the 5000th time... lack of strength isn't what is holding Jamal back from being a good defender. And no he does not have good fundamentals on defense. If you need me to elaborate, please just ask.
> ...


I think your wrong on both counts. We can agree to disagree, right? If you want to post your reasoning behind why his strength isn't an issue I would certainly read it, although I reserve the right to snicker while doing so! :grinning:


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> Who on our team is going to be guarding T-MAC, Kobe, Artest etc...
> 
> Gordon is too short to guard those guys IMO....
> ...


Who anywhere guards these types of scorers..Team Defense...see Cahmpion Detroit Pistons


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>lorgg</b>!
> 
> 
> Who anywhere guards these types of scorers..Team Defense...see Cahmpion Detroit Pistons


Actually, Mr. Prince, on the Detroit Pistons, guards those people.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>lorgg</b>!
> 
> 
> Who anywhere guards these types of scorers..Team Defense...see Cahmpion Detroit Pistons


Even with team defense Prince still had to play Kobe tight. Your not going to have the best team defense in the world unless you have good individual defenders to start with IMO.


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> I think your wrong on both counts. We can agree to disagree, right? If you want to post your reasoning behind why his strength isn't an issue I would certainly read it, although I reserve the right to snicker while doing so! :grinning:


I think courage is the problem. He's afraid of getting knocked on his ***.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

It's amazing how everyone automatically writes Deng off as a wing defender. Didn't Paxson and his staff give this kid extremely high marks for his basketball IQ? Didn't Luol measure in with the wingspan of a 7 footer? And didn't Grover himself state that reports concerning his "lack of athleticism" were unfounded? Finally, wasn't this guy categorized as one of the most dedicated, hard working players in the entire draft? Give this kid a little time and I'm sure he'll find ways to use his assets to haunt long, tall wing players like McGrady.

Oh, and at the same time, lets think back for a moment to last season and see if we can recall what it was that McGrady was whining about each time he had to play Chicago: "How dare those evil Bulls play a zone against me! It's not fair!"

Now, imagine that same zone being played with three guys with huge wingspans in the frontcourt (Chandler, Curry, Deng) and two extremely quick ballhawks sneaking around at the top of the key.

Minnesota, thanks to Flip Saunders, rode a zone right through the playoffs and almost into the Finals. Hell, even Indiana and Detroit effectively utilized a variety of zones and traps during the playoffs.

If the Bulls remain healthy this year, the zone will become a very effective weapon for them. At the same time hustle guys like Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Chandler, Duhon, Davis and Williams ought to be able to apply a considerable amount of man to man defensive pressure. And if Pax is successful in his attempts to add one or two more hard workers who can contribute at both ends of the floor, you may see a team that employs a scrambling kind of defensive scheme similar to the one Brown employed in Memphis.

But whatever you do, don't discount LD as an eventual defensive force.


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Even with team defense Prince still had to play Kobe tight. Your not going to have the best team defense in the world unless you have good individual defenders to start with IMO.


refer to Spurs/Lakers...

How did they stop Parkers with two bad individual defenders on him? Payton and Fisher sucked defensively. Team Defense stopped him.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lorgg</b>!
> 
> 
> I think courage is the problem. He's afraid of getting knocked on his ***.


I am sure he is too somewhat. I think anyone who has a torn ACL at some point definitley thinks about it more than someone who hasn't.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>lorgg</b>!
> 
> refer to Spurs/Lakers...
> 
> How did they stop Parkers with two bad individual defenders on him? Payton and Fisher sucked defensively. Team Defense stopped him.


Payton is a bad individual defender? WTF?


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Payton is a bad individual defender? WTF?


Gary Payton is not The Glove anymore. His man defense has fallen off dramatically in the past two years. And who's to blame the guy? He is 35 after all. He had a young man's game for a lot of years.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> I am sure he is too somewhat. I think anyone who has a torn ACL at some point definitley thinks about it more than someone who hasn't.


Ace, with all due respect, take a look at Baron Davis who had the same injury. He's as aggressive as ever at both ends. And there are those who might say he's at greater risk of re-injuring his knee because of his weight and musculature.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Gary Payton is not The Glove anymore. His man defense has fallen off dramatically in the past two years. And who's to blame the guy? He is 35 after all. He had a young man's game for a lot of years.


I know his game has trailed off a lot even since last season in Seattle but he still seems to be a pretty solid defender for the most part.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> Ace, with all due respect, take a look at Baron Davis who had the same injury. He's as aggressive as ever at both ends. And there are those who might say he's at greater risk of re-injuring his knee because of his weight and musculature.


your absolutely right. But it did take him a while to regain his aggressivness, I even remember reading an interview where he says as much.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> your absolutely right. But it did take him a while to regain his aggressivness, I even remember reading an interview where he says as much.


I think it took all of like 10-15 games.


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## lou4gehrig (Aug 1, 2003)

Everyone has a matchup problem with T-Mac and Kobe. Thats why they are T-Mac and Kobe. Why is Gordon even being considered? Oh, so people can make a point about height. Who guarded Kobe in the Finals? He is an SG, was he being guarded by Hamilton the SG? Oh my god, the Pistons broke a fundamental law of basketball and put a better defender on Kobe...aka Tayshaun Prince. Stop tying Gordon to be required T-Mac and Kobe and Artest, just because you are dissatisfied with his height. If you do that you're being narrowminded just to be narrowminded. Thats why basketball is a team game where our you matchup strengths to strengths of other teams.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lou4gehrig</b>!
> Everyone has a matchup problem with T-Mac and Kobe. Thats why they are T-Mac and Kobe. Why is Gordon even being considered? Oh, so people can make a point about height. Who guarded Kobe in the Finals? He is an SG, was he being guarded by Hamilton the SG? Oh my god, the Pistons broke a fundamental law of basketball and put a better defender on Kobe...aka Tayshaun Prince. Stop tying Gordon to be required T-Mac and Kobe and Artest, just because you are dissatisfied with his height. If you do that you're being narrowminded just to be narrowminded. Thats why basketball is a team game where our you matchup strengths to strengths of other teams.


I think the question was WHO guards Kobe/T-Mac etc... Maybe you would like to hazard a guess on that subject rather than going off on a tangent?


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## Illstate2 (Nov 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Ace, for the 5000th time... lack of strength isn't what is holding Jamal back from being a good defender. And no he does not have good fundamentals on defense. If you need me to elaborate, please just ask.
> ...


I agree to an extent. There are plenty of guys his size or smaller who do just fine in both areas, though certainly in some situations it would help for him to be stronger.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

Guys, this isn't from my own personal observations, but I've been told that Gordon put on an athletic show at Berto that was absolutely jawdropping. He's very, very fast, can jump out of the gym, and has a touch on his jumper that would make anyone jealous. In fact, after his press conference he came out on the floor in his new Bulls uni for a photo shoot, and without even warming up dropped in 8 out of 10 long range 3 pointers, hitting nothing but the very bottom of the net. From what I hear, the staff up there absolutely can't wait to see Ben and Kirk paired together. And as for Luol Deng, I'm hearing reports that are very similar to what we read prior to the draft...that he's got much more to his game than he ever demonstrated at Duke. He hasn't spent a lot of time at the 3 point line, but he's got a midrange game that people say is deadly. The other thing I keep hearing is that you actually have to watch him in person to appreciate how incredibly long he is and how effective he is using that length to his advantage defensively. I don't want to pump too much sunshine up anyone's a$$e$, but I think we'll find out that the '04 draft was a real turning point for the franchise.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Deng and Gordon are for real 

We're still going to take another two seasons before we're a legitimate team however


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## lou4gehrig (Aug 1, 2003)

Who is going to guard them? Who guarded them last year? How about some of our players. How are Luol Deng? How about JYD?


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## Illstate2 (Nov 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lou4gehrig</b>!
> How are Luol Deng?


Maybe. However, it remains to be seen whether he can do it effectively. It usually takes any rookie to have an adjustment period, especially when they have to guard a new position. I wonder if athletically he can match up with T-Mac type guys. Athleticism, or a lack thereof, isn't something that is impossible to overcome, but generally speaking, it can be a big hurdle. I'd be interested to see how his combine numbers compare to those of Prince 2 years ago.



> Originally posted by <b>lou4gehrig</b>!
> How about JYD?


Gosh, I hope not. He wasn't that great in that capacity last year.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Well Everyone in this thread I have to disagree with. 

Speaking of freak athletes with some height maybe our freak athlete with their size can guard them.

Eddie Robinson 

Paxson doesnt like him but Skiles would be willing to play him in order to win a game. E-Rob is very talented and showed it last year.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> Well Everyone in this thread I have to disagree with.
> 
> Speaking of freak athletes with some height maybe our freak athlete with their size can guard them.
> ...


ahhhh, I actually forgot about slug.... I guess he does play DECENT defense SOMETIMES...


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## Illstate2 (Nov 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> Eddie Robinson
> 
> Skiles would be willing to play him in order to win a game.


That was clearly proven not to be true this past season.


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> Who on our team is going to be guarding T-MAC, Kobe, Artest etc...
> 
> Gordon is too short to guard those guys IMO....
> ...


Our SF will guard those guys, whether it's Deng, Erob, or whoever. 

Hinrich can guard the opposing team's SF and BG will guard the PG. Unlike the 90's Bulls, none of those teams has a lethal MJ/Pip duo at 2/3. Hinrich can guard Reggie Miller, Devean George, etc. If the other teams want to try to run their offenses by posting up Reggie or Devean, be my guest!

Whenever there is a mismatch on the defensive end, teams will go to it at the most about 3 times. Imagine any game where Eddy started on fire and then we forgot about him. After a few possessions, teams get bored/selfish and move on to something else. It's not that big of a deal. Like I said earlier, even if they go to Reggie or Devean in the post 100 times, I'd prefer it to the team giving the ball to Jermaine O'Neal or Kobe, etc.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> I think your wrong on both counts. We can agree to disagree, right? If you want to post your reasoning behind why his strength isn't an issue I would certainly read it, although I reserve the right to snicker while doing so! :grinning:


Ace, I never said strength wasn't an issue with Jamal. Rather, I said it isn't <i>the</i> issue behind his defense and lack of slashing. You're acting like adding a little bulk will serve as the panacea to the holes in his game. Speaking of holes, here we go:

1) Fundamental defense - Jamal allows for too much spacing between him and the offensive player. AFter watching him play for 3.5 seasons I would classify his defense as 'bleed and recover'. Give up too much space, hope to recover with a block or altered shot. Also, doesn't slide his feet. Too much hopping around for my taste. Doesn't use his arms correctly. Defends too high and doesn't get low enough to stop his opponent... I could go on

2) Initiating contact - all great defenders (and yes offensive slashers too) can create contact and achieve a reasonable amount of success after it. Jamal doesn't strike me as a guy who likes to body players on defense. Offensively, he's the only 6'6" guy in the NBA who shoots floaters regularly

3) Desire - any coach worth 2 cents will tell you that defense and rebounding has more to do with desire than anything else. I would give Jamal a neutral grade in terms of desire to improve defensively. Haven't seen enough from him to say he'll ever get a vote for all-Defensive team.

4) Lack of strength - I will agree this is an issue though how much so is being overblown. Prince, Christie, AK47, etc. dont' strike me as bulky guys or even guys who can bench 300 pounds. But like #1 through #3 say, they have the fundamental base, desire, and willingness for contact to succeed defensively. That is what makes them good/great defenders.

I have heard the familiar arguments in defense of #1 thru #4 so let me save everyone's time and address those too:

"Jamal tore his ACL and is afraid of contact" - I think this argument has been addressed previously in this thread

"Jamal only played 2 years of HS ball, 1 year college" - And 4 seasons in the NBA. So many have said Jamal learned the game in the street. Let me ask you guys who regularly play street ball... does anyone play defense on the street? Not really. The fact that Jamal settles for floaters in the lane tells me that some of his street game has never left him. Defensively, its just not there

"Jamal only needs to add ___ pounds of muscle and he'll be a good defender" - I would rather see Jamal bodying up defenders than doing bench presses at the Berto

"Jamal has a 6'10" wingspan, stands 6'6" so he has to be a good defender one day right?" - Sure. Why not? But answer me this question.. how does Jamal in any way use that height for his advantage? Is he posting up smaller guards or settling for fadeaway jumpers? Does he body up smaller players and use his arms/hands effectively defensively.. or does he hop around hoping to block a shot or two? does he consistently slash and finish around the hoop (*cough *cough Dwayne Wade) or does he settle for floaters and mid range jumpers? I could go on.. but I'm sick of typing....

So after this whole diatribe let me say that I'd rather see Gordon guarding stud 2's than Jamal (though it looks more and more like Kirk will). If nothing else, I would expect Gordon to be a lot more physical with guards and enforce the tempo rather than being reactionary. We'll see how things shake out


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> Guys, this isn't from my own personal observations, but I've been told that Gordon put on an athletic show at Berto that was absolutely jawdropping. He's very, very fast, can jump out of the gym, and has a touch on his jumper that would make anyone jealous. In fact, after his press conference he came out on the floor in his new Bulls uni for a photo shoot, and without even warming up dropped in 8 out of 10 long range 3 pointers, hitting nothing but the very bottom of the net. From what I hear, the staff up there absolutely can't wait to see Ben and Kirk paired together. And as for Luol Deng, I'm hearing reports that are very similar to what we read prior to the draft...that he's got much more to his game than he ever demonstrated at Duke. He hasn't spent a lot of time at the 3 point line, but he's got a midrange game that people say is deadly. The other thing I keep hearing is that you actually have to watch him in person to appreciate how incredibly long he is and how effective he is using that length to his advantage defensively. I don't want to pump too much sunshine up anyone's a$$e$, but I think we'll find out that the '04 draft was a real turning point for the franchise.


But dropping all those 3 pointers isnt going to make much of a difference if he is fighting in the post against a Kobe or Tmac or Pierce. Those guys, because of their size, tend to wear players down. Sure LD is going to be a good defender. But what happens when Artests moves to the 2 guard spot, which he often does with Harrington at the 3? Indy does this often enough. Deng cant guard both. Can Gordon or Hinrich slow an Artest down on the block? I dont think so.


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Payton is a bad individual defender? WTF?


Are you trying to tell me he defended well in the playoffs and finals this year? I need some of what you're smoking.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>lorgg</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you trying to tell me he defended well in the playoffs and finals this year? I need some of what you're smoking.


Gary Payton will go down as one of the 5 best defensive guards in NBA history. I think Derek Fisher got lit up more then GP did. But thats just my opinion


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, Mr. Prince, on the Detroit Pistons, guards those people.


Last time I checked Prince was a small forward, not a guard. Instead of havinh our "small" backcourt guard these types maybe we'll have an athletic NBDL SF guard them.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>lorgg</b>!
> 
> 
> Last time I checked Prince was a small forward, not a guard. Instead of havinh our "small" backcourt guard these types maybe we'll have an athletic NBDL SF guard them.


Did you actually WATCH the playoffs? Regardless of what "position" Prince plays he covered Kobe like a blanket, it was all the talk...have you been living in a cave somewhere man?


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>lorgg</b>!
> 
> 
> Last time I checked Prince was a small forward, not a guard. Instead of havinh our "small" backcourt guard these types maybe we'll have an athletic NBDL SF guard them.


Prince often guards the best peremeter scorer on the opposing team, and when he was put on Kobe in the finals, he did a great job. You did see that, right?


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Did you actually WATCH the playoffs? Regardless of what "position" Prince plays he covered Kobe like a blanket, it was all the talk...have you been living in a cave somewhere man?


Point being wise guy is he's not a GUARD!!!!
All the talk of our small back court. What?! Are you living with your head up your ......

Ill spell it out for you geniouses.

DETROIT USED A SMALL FORWARD TO GUARD THE KOBE/TMAC TYPE PLAYERS.

Who says we have to use a small guard to guard these types of players?

That's my point. Please read it through next time.


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Prince often guards the best peremeter scorer on the opposing team, and when he was put on Kobe in the finals, he did a great job. You did see that, right?


I SEE that and you affirmed what I was saying. Many posters have been saying our "small backcourt" won't guard anyone or let alone superstars like Kobe.

Teams can use a an SF to D-up a superstar scorer. If a team does this height become irrevlevant b/c SF usually are 6'8" or more.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>lorgg</b>!
> 
> 
> Point being wise guy is he's not a GUARD!!!!
> ...


So if you're the Bulls, you have someone at the 3 (Stephen Jackson, Luol Deng) guard the Kobe type player, and you have someone like Hinrich guard the offensively useless small forward like Devean George. That way you hide the height problem. 

I know we start from a defensive weakness by drafting a small Gordon to play 2 guard, but while you're screaming at everybody about positions, positions, it seems like you're not accounting for the flexibility in defenses.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>lorgg</b>!
> 
> 
> Point being wise guy is he's not a GUARD!!!!
> ...


Yeah, Detroit has 6'8" rip Hamilton, 6'2 or 3" Chauncey and 6'9" Prince. It's easy to switch your sf over to guard the other teams oppossing Sg when your Sg is 6'8". If the Bulls do that they will move Deng or E-Rob over to guard the big sg and then who guards the sf? Gordon? Hinrich? Crawford? You just don't get it man, the Bulls have a completely different make up than the Pistons.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*

lorgg, after this whole discussion, I have no idea what you suggest the Bulls should do to guard a super sized 2 like Kobe or McGrady. You site the Pistons team defense, but we're not the Pistons. So what are you suggesting we do?


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> lorgg, after this whole discussion, I have no idea what you suggest the Bulls should do to guard a super sized 2 like Kobe or McGrady. You site the Pistons team defense, but we're not the Pistons. So what are you suggesting we do?


I know, lorgg you act like we have at least ONE big guard to take the opposing team's SF and then our SF can take the big guard.... but that's not the case....

our two guards are 6' 4" and 6' 2" our SF is 6' 8".... lets say our SF takes the 6' 7" SG of the opposing team, what happens if that team's SF is like 6' 9" or something? We have Hinrich (6' 4") or Gordon (6' 2") guard him? Your not putting into account that if our SF takes the SG then who in the world guards THEIR SF?


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> I know, lorgg you act like we have at least ONE big guard to take the opposing team's SF and then our SF can take the big guard.... but that's not the case....
> ...


Well, right now there aren't any dominating and sizeable 2 and 3 pairs in the league like a Jordan/Pippen combo. McGrady and Kobe don't have good running mates...right now. If they do, we'll have a problem. Against most teams, we'll have to see if things work out having Hinrich or Gordon guard 2's (Jamal's status in question).


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

if any one team has two players above 6ft 6in coming from the PG/SG/SF spot I think we're in trouble.... UNLESS we sign someone like Jackson or at least re-sign Crawford to get some length back...


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?

Deng or JWD or Erob


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, Detroit has 6'8" rip Hamilton, 6'2 or 3" Chauncey and 6'9" Prince. It's easy to switch your sf over to guard the other teams oppossing Sg when your Sg is 6'8". If the Bulls do that they will move Deng or E-Rob over to guard the big sg and then who guards the sf? Gordon? Hinrich? Crawford? You just don't get it man, the Bulls have a completely different make up than the Pistons.


I agree. I'm saying just because we have a small BC doesn't mean we don't take Gordon. There are different ways to get the job done. 

Maybe one of the guys in our small backcourt can be a stopper. I can't imagine 2 inches makes all that much difference unless it's the size of a guy's heart. I could be wrong. If not we resort to another means of stopping someone. I don't believe this is the finished product yet either. I don't expect..poof..draft Gordan and we're in the finals. 

A better reference to a small bc is the 1990 champ pistons. They got it done. of course, they also had a different team make-up. It ultimately rests on team defense.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, Detroit has 6'8" rip Hamilton, 6'2 or 3" Chauncey and 6'9" Prince. It's easy to switch your sf over to guard the other teams oppossing Sg when your Sg is 6'8". If the Bulls do that they will move Deng or E-Rob over to guard the big sg and then who guards the sf? Gordon? Hinrich? Crawford? You just don't get it man, the Bulls have a completely different make up than the Pistons.


most teams dont have 2 t-macs on the floor u know? just put deng on the their best offense swingman whether its a 2 or a 3. and gordon /kirk will pick up whats left over. for example when we play against a team vs the rockets, we would put gordon on jim jackson, krik on lue, and deng on t-mac, vs another team like the kings, we dont have to switch at all. gordon will guard christie. bottom line is, most teams dont have 2 high scoring swingmen on the floor at the same time. 
even vs one of the biggest 1,2,3 ever in the 96's bulls team, with harper, jordan, pippen. we could still try to put deng on jordan, and kirk/gordon would guard pippen/harper since both of them arent good offensive players.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>Sith</b>!
> 
> 
> most teams dont have 2 t-macs on the floor u know? just put deng on the their best offense swingman whether its a 2 or a 3. and gordon /kirk will pick up whats left over. for example when we play against a team vs the rockets, we would put gordon on jim jackson, krik on lue, and deng on t-mac, vs another team like the kings, we dont have to switch at all. gordon will guard christie. bottom line is, most teams dont have 2 high scoring swingmen on the floor at the same time.
> even vs one of the biggest 1,2,3 ever in the 96's bulls team, with harper, jordan, pippen. we could still try to put deng on jordan, and kirk/gordon would guard pippen/harper *since both of them arent good offensive players.*


Good Lord....


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> Good Lord....


though pippen averaged like 18pts a game, he was clearly not a good one on one offense player, he got most of his points on fastbreaks, cut to the basket, and 3point shootings. and as for harper, he was washed up, he got his points from put backs and occasional open jumpshots. i think gordon/kirk will do just fine on those type of players. and this league has always been more of pippen/harper types than t-mac/kobe types/


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>Sith</b>!
> 
> 
> though pippen averaged like 18pts a game, he was clearly not a good one on one offense player, he got most of his points on fastbreaks, cut to the basket, and 3point shootings. and as for harper, he was washed up, he got his points from put backs and occasional open jumpshots. i think gordon/kirk will do just fine on those type of players. and this league has always been more of pippen/harper types than t-mac/kobe types/


I don't care WHAT you say... it is true that defense was what Pippen was known for but the guy was an EXCELLANT offensive player, and SO was Ron Harper. Harper, although also known for good defense, could have scored 15-20 points a game during those years the Bulls had him if he HAD to, but we had Jordan and Pippen and Kukoc so he didn't have to put up those kinds of numbers...


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who is going to guard the T-MAC type players for us?*



> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't care WHAT you say... it is true that defense was what Pippen was known for but the guy was an EXCELLANT offensive player, and SO was Ron Harper. Harper, although also known for good defense, could have scored 15-20 points a game during those years the Bulls had him if he HAD to, but we had Jordan and Pippen and Kukoc so he didn't have to put up those kinds of numbers...


well, almost anyone could put up 15-20 pts if he HAD to. even for people like AD, if u give him like 15shots a game hes gonna put up some 15-20 pts a game. so why was AD not given 15 shots a game? its because we have JC/curry and companies. 

let me ask u why jc/curry were given the green lights to shoot and AD was not? thats the same theory for why harper got almost no touches at all.

my point is, all teams in the NBA dont have a high scoring 1, 2, 3 at the floor at the same time. most of time its just 1 guy, and other 2 are utility players. we could always put gordon/kirk onthose type of guys and put our best defensive swingman on the 1 offensive guy. and thats only a handful of teams in the NBA that have a good offensive BIG GUARD. against teams like the sixers/hornets/knicks/magic/ etc.. their "short" guards are the primary attacks of their teams, so we dont even need to switch.


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