# Andre Miller?



## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

Does anyone think it would be a good idea to try to get Miller? They probably wouldn't have to give him an enormous contract given his recent play. He hasn't done that well with the Clippers, but let's face it, who has? He definitely has ability, though. He averaged almost 11 assists a game in his last year in Cleveland, which was impressive considering the guys he was surrounded by. I just don't know who we would give the Clippers in return.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mrsister</b>!
> Does anyone think it would be a good idea to try to get Miller? They probably wouldn't have to give him an enormous contract given his recent play.


No. Miller doesn't know how to win, and besides, he and Pierce don't get along.

You are right about one thing: he can probably be had for the mid-level exception.

I'd rather go after Lamar Odom, who in my opinion plays the point better than Miller. But I think Odom is a RFA and you would have to do a sign and trade.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

I think it'd be a great idea. Come on, you don't lead the league in assists at 11 a game on a worthless team like the Cavs without having talent at that position. He also shot 45% from the field while scoring around 16 ppg I think, and had about 5 rebounds a game. He's a great all-around talent. At this time last year, I was ready to say he'd be the best PG in the NBA within another year. You can't blame him for the Clippers, everyone out there is playing for themselves. I don't know how his attitude is, or how he and Pierce get along, but I do know he's an immensely talented PG, which is what this team needs.


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Andre Miller?*



> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> No. Miller doesn't know how to win, and besides, he and Pierce don't get along.


The Celtics know how to win. I think Miller could learn as well. He'd also learn to get along with Pierce. They had tension during the World Basketball Championships because they were losing, and they had Karl for a coach who probably stirred things up. I think they could put aside their differences in order to win.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Miller is completely overrated. He had good stats with Cleveland in games that didn't matter, and led the league in assists because he had the ball 85% of the time. The NBA is not a fantasy league. 

There is a reason why he would be available for the mid level exception. You get what you pay for, and the other GMs and coaches around the league aren't blind.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> Miller is completely overrated. He had good stats with Cleveland in games that didn't matter, and led the league in assists because he had the ball 85% of the time. The NBA is not a fantasy league.
> 
> There is a reason why he would be available for the mid level exception. You get what you pay for, and the other GMs and coaches around the league aren't blind.


You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree stronly. Miller is easily a top 5 PG talent in this league.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree stronly. Miller is easily a top 5 PG talent in this league.


Yes, and until a team with Andre Miller on it gets anywhere near the playoffs I'll stick by my assessment. I hope he takes all of that talent to Utah.

Darrell Armstrong and Antonio Daniels are also FA's this year, and I would rather have one of them. Actually I'd rather have Gilbert Arenas but there is probably no way that is going to happen. Denver is reportedly going to empty the vault to get him.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, and until a team with Andre Miller on it gets anywhere near the playoffs I'll stick by my assessment. I hope he takes all of that talent to Utah.
> ...


You've got to be kidding. Darrell Armstrong doesn't even start anymore. Sure he's an energizer, but he's too old, he can't run a team anymore (never could all that well). Antonio Daniels has done nothing at the NBA level, and he's a downgrade if he's starting ahead of Delk. 

Arenas is a very talented player, but your reason for not wanting Miller is he can't win. Arenas hasn't won anymore than Miller. So why would he be any better? Not to mention he's not nearly as good a distributor as Miller is, which is what the Celtics need more. I say they should go for Miller, if they can't get him, pick up Hinrich if they can, or Ridnour in the draft.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Why draft a pg when there are about a zillion free agent pgs this year. Look at the list posted by robyg1974 in the "Free Agents, Trades and Rumors" forum. Every one of those guys was a big star in college. And if you don't want someone with NBA experience, there is a glut of pgs coming out this year. I've posted several lists already. There will be 2-3 guys who go undrafted that are just as good as the ones who are-- with the exception of Ford and possibly Barbosa (if he's as good as they say he is).

I think they should use one of the picks for a banger-- a guy like Sweetney (if he is there at #16). With #20 they should take the best talent available-- maybe a guy like Victor Khryapa who is probably not ready now but has a huge upside. There is also a Nigerian kid who played at Wyoming named Uche Nsonwu-Amadi who is one hell of a rebounder. He's a few years older, so he may not be a good gamble, but don't be suprised if some team drafts him in the second round and he suprises a few people.
We need a MAN, someone who is big, tough, mean and relentless on the glass. (Just think, Ben Wallace played on the Celtics' Summer league team in '96 and could have been had for a song-- but Pitino didn't want him.)

And if you think Arenas isn't any better than Miller, let's wait and see how much money Arenas is gets next year vs how much Miller gets-- notwithstanding that Miller is an RFA and the Clippers can match any offer.


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

*Andre Miller in Boston*

I would like to see Andre Miller go to Boston. He has something to prove after his play with the Clippers. And he should be a bargain. 

It is a bumper crop for point guards this year with two hall of famers as free agents. But unless a miracle happens with the Vin Baker situation we will not get Jason Kidd of Gary Payton. I thought we should have drafted Arenas out of college but now he is going to cost too much and is not the right fit for the Celtics. Jason Terry is interesting but is just another scoring guard who has been semi converted to point. Who elso is left? Darrell Armstrong is past his prime and would be not better than the points already in Boston. Strickland is a favorite of mine but is not a starter and probably will not be back in Bean town.

Either go after Miller or draft Hinrich or Ridnour in the draft.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Andre Miller in Boston*



> Originally posted by <b>Bad Bartons</b>!
> Either go after Miller or draft Hinrich or Ridnour in the draft.


Well I hope Ainge isn't listening to you. He certainly isn't listening to me <g>. Hinrich is a shooter, not a distributor. As for Ridenour, he is a twinkie who barely weighs 175 soaking wet. He will get posted up by everyone.

By the way, the guy they should have drafted was Tony Parker, instead of wasting a pick on Forte.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: Re: Andre Miller in Boston*



> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Well I hope Ainge isn't listening to you. He certainly isn't listening to me <g>. Hinrich is a shooter, not a distributor. As for Ridenour, he is a twinkie who barely weighs 175 soaking wet. He will get posted up by everyone.
> ...


Hinrich is too a distributor. Did you watch him in college? He has all the tools to be a great PG in the NBA. Hell, I've heard scouts say he's already one of the top 10 guards on the planet (although they said similar things about Jay Williams). You think there are going to be players who go undrafted, that will be as good a PG as these guys? Barbosa, Hinrich, Ridnour, and Ford all have a lot of potential, outside of them I don't see anyone at the PG position who will do anything. 

Go after Miller and draft a big man if you can, and then someone on potential, or draft a PG and then go after what you can get with the 20th pick. Seriously, you can't honestly think the Celtics can get the PG they need by picking up and undrafted rookie out of free agency? And you also can't think that Antonio Daniels is the guy they need running the show. Arenas is very good, and he will make more money, but that's because of Miller's disappointing year. Last year, if he were to have gotten an extension, Miller would've gotten the max and you know it. He's a much better distributor then Arenas, and always will be. And that's what the Celtics need. If they got Arenas that'd be fine too, but they won't.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

From what I have seen from Hinrich is that he can control the tempo, he can pass, he plays DEFENSE, and he can shot the 3. Lets recap, plays defense and shots the 3s, now you should have that a little light turn on over your head guys. Hinrich is a great player, and IMO we should take him IF AND ONLY IF Luke is not available, about Barbarosa, I am not sure about him, scouts say he's good but he too is too small, or at least thats how nbadraft.net lists him, I have seen articles listing him at 210, thats not bad at all....


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

I saw Hinrich quite a bit in this year's NCAA tournament and was not impressed with his pro potential. I've seen Ridenour just twice, and I thought he was a Jayson Williams clone. Thery are both very good college players, but do you think either of those guys could defend a quality NBA point guard? Of the two, I would take Ridenour, because he is more entertaining.

After Ford and Barbosa (maybe), I think the best two pro pg prospects in the draft are Marcus Moore and Zoran Planinic, although both have injury issues and I'm not sure about Planinic's ability to defend at the NBA level either. After that, I like Troy Bell, who would have been a much higher pick had he come out after his junior year. Remember that Bell was also injured earlier in the season. Ben Gordon and Taliq Brown of UConn are also better pro prospects in my opinion, but they may stay in school.

Then there are guys like Mo Williams, Marcus Banks, Chris Thomas and Steve Blake. They are not as good as Hinrich or Ridenour, but at least two of them will go undrafted.

But why go through all of this analysis when there are so many proven PRO point guards available as free agents, not to mention guys like Damon Stoudamire who is almost certainly on the trading block? I will even grudgingly confess that if I had to choose between Hinrich and Ridenour and Andre Miller, I would take Miller, although I really do think he is overrated. At least he has pro experience and he is 6-4.

Rule: never waste a top 20 draft pick on a player less than 6-4 unless you think he is going to be the next Jason Kidd or Gary Payton. And none of the guys coming out this year has that kind of talent, not even T.J. Ford. You draft for size. I would rather see them take one of the big Russian klutzes (Pachulia or Podkolzin) than waste a top 20 pick on a guard.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Your right, NONE of them have a Pro body, but we need a PG, we need to draft one, who knows who will sign with us from FA, to tell you the truth I don't like many of those FA PG, the one's I do like are the one's that will be getting the max, or more then the mid-exeption. This will bring us back to 3D. Draft, Deal, *Develop*


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

I think there are quite a few FA pgs who would love to come to Boston. The Celtics treat their players well, and even after the Vin Baker fiasco they are one of the 8 or 10 best teams in the league.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> I saw Hinrich quite a bit in this year's NCAA tournament and was not impressed with his pro potential. I've seen Ridenour just twice, and I thought he was a Jayson Williams clone. Thery are both very good college players, but do you think either of those guys could defend a quality NBA point guard? Of the two, I would take Ridenour, because he is more entertaining.
> 
> After Ford and Barbosa (maybe), I think the best two pro pg prospects in the draft are Marcus Moore and Zoran Planinic, although both have injury issues and I'm not sure about Planinic's ability to defend at the NBA level either. After that, I like Troy Bell, who would have been a much higher pick had he come out after his junior year. Remember that Bell was also injured earlier in the season. Ben Gordon and Taliq Brown of UConn are also better pro prospects in my opinion, but they may stay in school.
> ...


Hinrich does have pro potential, I've been watching him since he was a freshman. He's 6'3'' (good size for a PG), great stroke, great speed, good quickness, and good vision/passing ability. There's no real flaw in his game. He can D it up (All D 1st team in the Big 12). He won't be a star defensively, but he won't be a liability by any means either. 

The fact is, a guy like Hinrich or Ridnour does have a lot of potential in the NBA, they don't need to be 6'6''. Are they sure things? Of course not. But the fact is I don't think the Celtics have much a chance on landing a good PG out of free agency, unless you're still including Antonio Daniels.


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## Im The One (Sep 1, 2002)

I think Andre Miller on the Celtics would be a good fit regardless if he and Paul get along or not. He's not a speedy pg who sets people up, rather he's a half court guy player who will have no problem defering the your two star players. He wont be the answer to all your problems but he would be a much needed piece. 
As far as salary goes I think he may take the MLE to play with a winner like Boston or he could go for the big money in a place like Utah who will likely be in rebuilding mode. As a clipper fan i'm not going to shed a tear if he leaves but I doubt the Clippers will let him walk for nothing. They will probably try to arrange a sign and trade. 

He's is my rough idea
Andre Miller for your #16(Luke Ridnour) and future considerations
The Celtics get their point guard, the Clippers get a back-up for Jaric in Ridnour. The Celtics still have have the 20th pick and with that pick I would be looking at selecting David West if I were you. Off course filler would have to be thrown in but I think it works for both sides.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Give up a DRAFT PICK for Andre Miller? No thanks! As a clips fan, you won't shed a tear if he leaves, and as a Celtics fan, I won't shed a tear if he stays in LA or goes to Utah or any place else but Boston.

If the Clips want one of our draft picks, they can offer Lamar Odom or Elton Brand.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Hinrich does have pro potential, I've been watching him since he was a freshman. He's 6'3'' (good size for a PG), great stroke, great speed, good quickness, and good vision/passing ability. There's no real flaw in his game. He can D it up (All D 1st team in the Big 12). He won't be a star defensively, but he won't be a liability by any means either.
> ...


You were watching Hinrich against college players. They said the same thing about Jaques Vaughn, and he is one of the many FA pgs available for next year. By NBA standards Hinrich has average speed and quickness at best, and he is undersized. I do not think he is an improvement over JR Bremer (who is an excellent defender IMHO), so why bother?

Yes I am still including Antonio Daniels. I am also including Darrell Armstrong (who still has 2 good years left) and Speedy Klaxon, who looked pretty good the other night against the Lakers.


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

*Point guards for Boston*

I would rather have Miller than Darrell Armstrong or Daniels.

Speedy Claxton is interesting. I think he would be a nice fit. He is young but has gained some valuable experience in the league.

I still disagree with you about Hinrich and Ridnour, Big John. These guys are solid. They may not become spectacular players but they will help the clubs that pick them. Each may even be very good players in the NBA. Besides I am tired of wasting picks on potential that never happens or guys who play in Europe.

I agree that the Celtics should have taken Tony Parker. If they had then we wouldn't even be discussing the point guard spot.

As far as sending a draft pick to the Clips for Miller this would be ridiculous! Why waste the pick when Miller is a free agent?

I am glad to see so many fans back on this board.

Everyday is a good day to discuss the C's!


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## zerotre (Sep 28, 2002)

hey big john...most of the things u stated about hinrich are correct except the undersize part. He would be an above average sized point guard.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>zerotre</b>!
> hey big john...most of the things u stated about hinrich are correct except the undersize part. He would be an above average sized point guard.


Hinrich is only 6-3 (in sneakers or barefoot?) and he is not muscular.

The only difference between Hinrich and Steve Blake (who may not get drafted) is that Hinrich is a better shooter. Blake is a better distributor--one of only 4 players in NCAA history with over 1000 career assists. Also, Blake led his team (Maryland) to a national championship when Blake was only a junior. Hinrich didn't.

You want a shooter who also has the quickness to guard NBA pgs? How about Hollis Price of Oklahoma. Do you want a NYC street baller who can flat out score-- and who also was among the Big East's steals leaders-- how about Marcus Hatten? Those guys probably won't get drafted either.

I'm not saying that Blake. Price or Hatten is the answer, but they are just three of the many options that could be available if they pass on Hinrich and Ridnour in the draft.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> You were watching Hinrich against college players. They said the same thing about Jaques Vaughn, and he is one of the many FA pgs available for next year. By NBA standards Hinrich has average speed and quickness at best, and he is undersized. I do not think he is an improvement over JR Bremer (who is an excellent defender IMHO), so why bother?
> ...


I've been watching Hinrich since college, and I was able to realize it was against college players. I'm talking about his potential, and he does have a lot of it. He's going to be much better than Bremer, as well as Daniels and Armstrong. Why do you want to settle for these mediocre players? They won't bring the Celtics anywhere further than where they are. Hell, Delk's a better PG than Daniels. Speedy Claxton? What's he done in this league? You keep downplaying college players, but then go on to say you'd love to have these mediocre players. The only guy that you mentioned that can run the point with some kind of efficiency is Darrell Armstrong, and he can't do it all that well. Plus he's getting real old, he can't even start on the Magic over Vaugn anymore. 

Everyone knew Vaugn's flaws, that's why he was barely picked in the 1st round. Hinrich has a game that can translate to the next level well. And he's not the only guy, Ridnour could be very good as well. Ford has more flaws then them.

You've mentioned guys who may not get drafted, but they may not get drafted for a reason. Scouts usually know more than we do. Hinrich and Ridnour (Hinrich more-so) both have all the tools to be great players. Hinrich is a great distributor, it's just he's had to play the SG and SF spots because Miles wasn't as versatile as he is. I just don't see how you can be so impressed with Antonio Daniels, and so unimpressed with Hinrich and Miller.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Hell, Delk's a better PG than Daniels. Speedy Claxton? What's he done in this league? You keep downplaying college players, but then go on to say you'd love to have these mediocre players. .... I just don't see how you can be so impressed with Antonio Daniels, and so unimpressed with Hinrich and Miller.


Delk is not a pg. He can't pass and when pressured defensively he turns the ball over. Delk is an undersized sg masquerading as a pg.

Every action has an opportunity cost. If you use a draft pick on a pg, it means the pick is not available for a bigger player. It's very simple. I'm not saying that the guys I've listed are better than Hinrich or Ridnour. I'm saying that they are 95% as good and cost MUCH less.

As for Andre Miller, you can take the player out of Cleveland, but you can't take the Cleveland out of the player. He is overpriced-- although not as overpriced as he was. Guys like Armstrong and Daniels provide more bang for the buck.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Delk is not a pg. He can't pass and when pressured defensively he turns the ball over. Delk is an undersized sg masquerading as a pg.
> ...


I know Delk's not a PG, but neither is Daniels. Armstrong is, but he's not that good, plus he's old. Depending on what you could get Miller for, he'll be a steal. Seriously, the guy's going to bounce back and have a great career. I honestly don't see what you have against the guy. He was a winner in college, but just because he lands on a couple teams that are NEVER any good, and he can't get them to the playoffs, all of a sudden he's a team cancer? I just don't get it. He's a tremendous talent and a great player, and if the Celtics could pick him up they'd have a nucleus that could make them the front-runners in the east. This is all just my personal speculation of course, but Boston won't go anywhere with Armstrong or Daniels at the helm.

And you have to use a draft pick for something. Might as well go for what you need. It's not like they won't have another one, they have one just a few spots afterwards. PG's are harder to come by then big men, and if one of these guys can turn out great then it'll be a huge steal. And I don't think Hinrich will be a bust. He should be a quality player at least. He's more of a sure thing then most guys, which is something the Celtics can use considering their draft history. If the best they can get is Daniels, Claxton, or Armstrong, they need to make a move for a PG in the draft. Because none of those guys will help this team.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> Depending on what you could get Miller for, he'll be a steal. Seriously, the guy's going to bounce back and have a great career. I honestly don't see what you have against the guy.... PG's are harder to come by then big men, and if one of these guys can turn out great then it'll be a huge steal.


What do I have against Miller?

1, He played like crap in the world championships and then tried to blame it on Pierce.

2. In both qames the Celtics played against the Clippers this year, Miller snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in the last few minutes of the game. He CHOKES when the game is on the line.

3. His numbers look good, but he is like those baseball players who hit three run homers when their team is 10 runs behind. He is the Tony Clark of the NBA.

Big men are harder to come by than point guards. That is because height is distributed on a bell curve, and for every 6-10 guy there are 50 6-2 guys. Also, as I have been trying to say on this forum, 2003 happens to be a year when there is a GLUT of point guards, both as NBA free agents and pgs coming out of college. Maybe it would be different in other years, but not this year.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> What do I have against Miller?
> ...


I don't agree with anything you posted about Miller, but that's another story. 

Look how many good PF's in the NBA there are compared to good PG's, great PG's are much harder to find IMO. And yes, there are some good PG's out of FA. But there are really only 4 impact makers I think. Kidd, Payton, and Arenas will not sign with Boston, I think we can all be sure of that. Miller's the other one, and they might have a shot at him. He's a great player, and while you might not like him, many other people do (including myself) with good reason. And yes, there are some good PG's coming out of college, that's what I've been saying. Hinrich, Ridnour, Ford, and possibly Barbosa all have a chance at being very good players in this league. But I doubt you'll find anyone outside of those guys that will do anything more than what Bremer does. And you already said you wouldn't spend a pick on those guys.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

The conventional wisdom is that they need an "impact" pg. I simply don't agree. They need an impact rebounder. They need a young Charles Oakley. Their front line is much too small for the NBA because Battie and Walker are finesse players, not bruisers, and Eric Williams is 6-6, not 6-8.

They can draft all the pgs they want and they still won't win without an impact rebounder. Not in the East, and certainly not against the West.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> The conventional wisdom is that they need an "impact" pg. I simply don't agree. They need an impact rebounder. They need a young Charles Oakley. Their front line is much too small for the NBA because Battie and Walker are finesse players, not bruisers, and Eric Williams is 6-6, not 6-8.
> 
> They can draft all the pgs they want and they still won't win without an impact rebounder. Not in the East, and certainly not against the West.


I agree with this. But they're going to need a good PG and big man both, if they're going to have a chance at a ring. They could get by with just one and might make it out of the east, but they won't beat the elite teams of the west. The thing is, I don't think some of the guys you mentioned are much of an upgrade from Delk. Anyway, we'll see how it goes this offseason. You know Ainge is going to make some moves to let everyone know he's arrived, we'll just wait and see what happens.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

So let's use those precious draft picks to get a couple of big players. First things first. You draft two big players because if one of them doesn't pan out, you still have the other.

Speaking of FAs, I see that Adrian Griffin will be available. I would not mind seeing him back with the Celtics, and he would be a very useful bench player.


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## wickster33 (May 15, 2003)

A trade would have to include players for salary cap purposes. The only guys who match up are Tony Delk or a combo like Kedrick Brown and Bruno.

If Andre can get along with Paul, I wouldn't mind a K Brown, Bruno and our #20 for Andre and The Clips 2nd round pick. It would probably fit in with Sterlings love of rookie contracts.

According to RealGM, Miller has at least 1 year left on a reasonable contract.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wickster33</b>!
> A trade would have to include players for salary cap purposes. The only guys who match up are Tony Delk or a combo like Kedrick Brown and Bruno.
> 
> If Andre can get along with Paul, I wouldn't mind a K Brown, Bruno and our #20 for Andre and The Clips 2nd round pick. It would probably fit in with Sterlings love of rookie contracts.
> ...


I do not believe any trade is necessary. Miller is a restricted free agent, which means that the Clips can match an outside offer. If the Clips do not match (and Sterling is a notorious cheapskate), Miller is free to go without any further compensation to the Clips.

I happen to think K. Brown is going to be a star in this league. Remember that right now Brown is just the equivalent of a college senior in terms of maturation. There is no way I would part with him to get Miller. 

All it takes to get Miller is money. The real issue is whether or not the Celtics wouldbe willing to use the MLE to get him, and by doing so possibly expose themselves to the luxury tax.


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## wickster33 (May 15, 2003)

Well, according to RealGM, Boston is already $16 million over the cap (thank you Vin Baker), and the new owner says they will definitely be paying the luxury tax this year. Wyc Grosbeck has estimated that the tax will cost the Cs about $9 million (actual tax plus moneys they won't receive from the shared pot).

Of Course, if the Celtics use all or a portion of the mid level exception on Andre, it won't be available for one of the big guys. Boston Press seems to be fixing its expectations on Juwon Howard or Zo Mourning.

I'm sure the Celtics would rather trade a player for Miller, but I'm not sure if the trade makes sense or not. Will Miller look like he did in Cleveland or LA? I'm not real worried about how he plays at the end of the game. That's what we have Pierce for.


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## BleedGreen (Jun 24, 2002)

If some type of Vin Baker thing happens then the Celtics shouldnt have to worry about the luxury tax. But I'm not gonna plan on that, even though it would be great.

We should go after Miller or ZO with the MLE. Either one is a great addition. I would much rather have us get Dre seeing Zo is old and might have more problems. We should draft the best available PG or CENTER with our two picks. 

I would like for us to get two big men in the draft and sign Andre Miller. That might not happen but thats about the best thing we can do this offseason. I think our chances of getting Miller are very good. If we can get a good big man as a project or banger then we're good. By drafting two big men instead of one, it increases our chances of getting someone decent. If we end up with no PG by the end of it all maybe we can sign an undrafted PG, that played good in collge (should be a few of these) and hope we get another JR Bremer.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Well if you have read this thread you know what I think about Miller. The Celtics have the MLE available, as well as $1M exception plus a $1M trade exception that expires this summer (acquired in the Blount deal).

Rumor has it that the new owners have told Ainge that he can't use the MLE, which is what I think it would take to get Miller, assuming he were willing to come here (which I doubt).

Juwan Howard? Zo? Howard is even more of a stiff than Miller, and Morning's health is obviously a huge question mark. Some journalists must be foaming at the mouth.

As I have also said elsewhere, they need to draft big. Sweetney would be ideal, if he is there at #16.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> Well if you have read this thread you know what I think about Miller. The Celtics have the MLE available, as well as $1M exception plus a $1M trade exception that expires this summer (acquired in the Blount deal).
> 
> Rumor has it that the new owners have told Ainge that he can't use the MLE, which is what I think it would take to get Miller, assuming he were willing to come here (which I doubt).
> ...


Sweetney will most likely be gone, and I wouldn't take him anyway. If you want to go big, the best two options IMO with the 16 is to either take Collison (more of a sure-thing), or go with Sophacles. Shortsianitis is a project, but he's a monster and in the East might be able to dominate. But there stands a good chance he'll be gone too, maybe both of them. It all really depends on who's still around. I think Hinrich would be a great choice at 16, but it all depends on who's left on the board.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> Well if you have read this thread you know what I think about Miller. The Celtics have the MLE available, as well as $1M exception plus a $1M trade exception that expires this summer (acquired in the Blount deal).
> 
> Rumor has it that the new owners have told Ainge that he can't use the MLE, which is what I think it would take to get Miller, assuming he were willing to come here (which I doubt).
> ...


I tought we had a $1M exception, plus a $2M exception as part of the Williams-Blount trade. 

Also the owners told Ainge that they are willing to use the MLE if ONLY IF that player is gonna have a huge impact with the Celtics. (Zo, hopefully).

Also, #16 pick Ridnour/Hinrich, then take a big man #20.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> 
> Also, #16 pick Ridnour/Hinrich, then take a big man #20.


Yea, that's what I thought too.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Yea, that's what I thought too.


A PG is a MUST. WE MUST GET ONE. A PG will make things easier for Twan and Paul, he will give us easy buckets (fast break, oh I love that), and most importantly THERE WON'T BE MANY BLOWOUTS.

But I don't know, there is a good chance we might not get a chance at any of them. I was just at nbadraft.net, and basicly there are 4 teams in front of us picking who need a PG.

NY
SEA
SEA
ORL


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> 
> 
> A PG is a MUST. WE MUST GET ONE. A PG will make things easier for Twan and Paul, he will give us easy buckets (fast break, oh I love that), and most importantly THERE WON'T BE MANY BLOWOUTS.
> ...


Yea, that's what I've been saying. Big John was satisfied with getting someone like an Antonio Daniels, but he's just another player like Delk. A distributor is at the top of the priority list IMO. There should be one of the top 4 PGs left (Ford, Hinrich, Ridnour, Barbosa). I've only seen around 5 games of Ridnour, and am not completely sure what kind of NBA potential he has. Ford will be a great distributor but is almost definitely going to be gone. Hinrich I think will be terrific, and is the perfect choice, I just hope he falls to 16. I've never seen Barbosa so I don't know about him. It really depends on where the chips fall. But I think Hinrich would be perfect, he's a great distributor and can really push the ball. He's also got good size for a PG, and in this system it doesn't hurt to have a good stroke, which he definitely has.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> 
> 
> I tought we had a $1M exception, plus a $2M exception as part of the Williams-Blount trade.
> ...


According to RealGM, the trade exception is only 1 million. But it could be used in conjunction with the other exception to get a 2 million dollar player.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Yea, that's what I've been saying. Big John was satisfied with getting someone like an Antonio Daniels, but he's just another player like Delk. A distributor is at the top of the priority list IMO. There should be one of the top 4 PGs left (Ford, Hinrich, Ridnour, Barbosa). I've only seen around 5 games of Ridnour, and am not completely sure what kind of NBA potential he has. Ford will be a great distributor but is almost definitely going to be gone. Hinrich I think will be terrific, and is the perfect choice, I just hope he falls to 16. I've never seen Barbosa so I don't know about him. It really depends on where the chips fall. But I think Hinrich would be perfect, he's a great distributor and can really push the ball. He's also got good size for a PG, and in this system it doesn't hurt to have a good stroke, which he definitely has.


I've never seen Barbosa either. Of the American players, the best PRO pg prospect after Ford is Marcus Moore out of Washington State, assuming that he is fully recovered from the injury he suffered last January. Moore is a pure pg and he's 6-6. He is a GREAT passer with a wicked crossover, and he can defend. He sometimes plays out of control, but that's why he will probably be available at #20. Not a polished player, but he has a huge upside.

If you insist on making a mistake by drafting a pg instead of another promising big man, Moore is the one to take-- assuming he is healthy.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> I've never seen Barbosa either. Of the American players, the best PRO pg prospect after Ford is Marcus Moore out of Washington State, assuming that he is fully recovered from the injury he suffered last January. Moore is a pure pg and he's 6-6. He is a GREAT passer with a wicked crossover, and he can defend. He sometimes plays out of control, but that's why he will probably be available at #20. Not a polished player, but he has a huge upside.
> ...


I haven't seen much of Moore, but what I have it just doesn't seem like he can run a team. It seems like he's a guy not gifted enough to play the 2, so they moved him to the PG. I don't know how good he'll be in the league, but he's not going to be near the distributor as a guy like Hinrich or Ridnour I don't think. And how good is his stroke? If this guy was 2 inches smaller you'd be brushing him off, as would everyone else. I think the fact he's listed as a PG and is 6'6'' is the only reason this guy's going to get drafted, and even then it probably won't be till the second round, unless he has great workouts. I think Hinrich or Ridnour would be a much better pick, and a much safer one at that.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> Sweetney will most likely be gone, and I wouldn't take him anyway. If you want to go big, the best two options IMO with the 16 is to either take Collison (more of a sure-thing), or go with Sophacles. Shortsianitis is a project, but he's a monster and in the East might be able to dominate. But there stands a good chance he'll be gone too, maybe both of them. It all really depends on who's still around. I think Hinrich would be a great choice at 16, but it all depends on who's left on the board.


1. The jury is out on Sweetney. Some have him as a late lottery pick, others see him going lower. He will probably be gone, unless he has bad workouts.

2. I think Shortsianitis will be gone. It depends on how tall he is, which is in doubt. If he is only 6-8, as some suspect, he may slide to the Celtics at 16. If he is 6-10, he will be a lottery pick. I have seen highlight tapes of him, and he certainly takes up alot of space.

So what big people might be available at #16 and #20? Everyone should understand that every player in the mid to late teens is going to have flaws and is going to be a gamble (that INCLUDES the point guards). Just look at the guys who were drafted from 15-20 last year. That's why I favor taking two big guys, in case one of them turns out to be a stiff.

So here's my list of possibles:

3. Nick Collison. On the plus side, he is a smart player with good fundamentals. However, I think he lacks the athleticism to be a better-than-average NBA player. Also, Collison is probably fully developed. What you see is what you are going to get. I do not think he is going to be significantly better in three years than he is now.

4. David West. Obviously a tweener. Some people have called him the second coming of Derek Strong, and I think that is accurate. I also think it is a compliment. You may recall that after ML Carr refused to give him a decent contract, Strong signed as a FA with Orlando and was an VERY valuable player for them. He was only 6-8, but a tough rebounder and defender.

5. Anderson Varejao. His stock is dropping faster than a barometer in a hurricane and he may withdraw from the draft. He played in the European final four last week and was horrible. But he is an athletic 6-10 player. Huge gamble. You may need to keep him in Europe for a few years. At least it saves money.

6. Pavel Podkolzin. 7-4, 300 with virtually no basketball skills. He is basically being hyped by his Italian team because they have him under a 10-year contract and they want to collect the buyout money. A euroscam.

7. Zaur Pachulia. 6-10, 260, a Russian (Georgian) playing in Turkey. I have not seen him play, but he sounds like a young Vitaly Potapenko. He is also a project who may need to stay in Europe for a few years.

8. Zarko Cabarkapa, 6-11, 230. I have seen highlight films. He seems to be a poor man's Kukoc: nice bb skills but not a great rebounder. Skinny.

9. Mario Austin, 6-8, 260. He had a lackluster senior year and would have been a higher pick had he come out as a junior. He is similar to Sweetney. He could be the second coming of Zach Randoph, which isn't too shabby. Very strong, space eater.

10. Rick Rickert. This guy intrigues me. He is not the rebounder the Celtics need, but he is nearly 7 feet and he can shoot like hell. Only a sophomore. If he spent a year with a good strength and conditioning coach.... He could be the poor man's Nowitski.

11. James Lang and Kendrick Perkins. Two oversized high schoolers. Both of them seem to be closer to Thomas Hamilton (remember him?) than to Amare Stoudamire, but who knows? I have not seen either one play.

12. Uche Nsonwu-Amadi. A friend of mine who lives in Salt Lake City saw this guy play, and my friend thinks the description of him on NBAdraft.net is accurate. If it is, he sounds like exactly the kind of player the Celtics need. I hope that the Celtics will at least invite this kid in for a workout, and if he goes undrafted, they also might consider offering him a roster spot on their Shaw's Summer league team. I still remember that glorious Summer of '96 (or was it '97?), when Ben Wallace wore Celtic green.

12. There are some other guys (Marquis Estil, Sani Ibrahim) but they probably aren't worth discussing. There will almost certainly be a couple of guys whose stock goes way up after the pre-draft camps, and a couple of others whose stock drops. Happens every year.

My apologies for another long-winded post.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> I haven't seen much of Moore, but what I have it just doesn't seem like he can run a team. It seems like he's a guy not gifted enough to play the 2, so they moved him to the PG. I don't know how good he'll be in the league, but he's not going to be near the distributor as a guy like Hinrich or Ridnour I don't think. And how good is his stroke? If this guy was 2 inches smaller you'd be brushing him off, as would everyone else. I think the fact he's listed as a PG and is 6'6'' is the only reason this guy's going to get drafted, and even then it probably won't be till the second round, unless he has great workouts. I think Hinrich or Ridnour would be a much better pick, and a much safer one at that.


No, no, Moore has been a pg throughout his career. He was on the all PAC-10 freshman team as a pg. At the time of his injury (bone chips in his ankle), he was second leading scorer in the PAC-10 (19.3 ppg), third in steals (1.80 per game), third in assists (4.47 pg) and 13th in rebounding (5.9 per game). Not too shabby. If he is healthy, he is a SAFER pick than Hinrich or Ridnour, because those extra four inches mean ALOT in the pro game.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> No, no, Moore has been a pg throughout his career. He was on the all PAC-10 freshman team as a pg. At the time of his injury (bone chips in his ankle), he was second leading scorer in the PAC-10 (19.3 ppg), third in steals (1.80 per game), third in assists (4.47 pg) and 13th in rebounding (5.9 per game). Not too shabby. If he is healthy, he is a SAFER pick than Hinrich or Ridnour, because those extra four inches mean ALOT in the pro game.


He's only 3 inches taller than Hinrich. He's not a safer pick than Hinrich because he's not nearly as polished. The only thing he has on him is 3 inches, which is a lot, but just think about how many good PG's have been taller than 6'3'' or 6'4'' for a second. Very, very few. There's absolutely no way Boston would pass up on Hinrich for Moore, nor should they.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> He's only 3 inches taller than Hinrich. He's not a safer pick than Hinrich because he's not nearly as polished. The only thing he has on him is 3 inches, which is a lot, but just think about how many good PG's have been taller than 6'3'' or 6'4'' for a second. Very, very few. There's absolutely no way Boston would pass up on Hinrich for Moore, nor should they.


We will just have to wait and see. I think you are right that Hinrich is a little more polished right now. But in two years?

You should know that Moore is no flash in the pan. This is a kid who led his HS team to the California state championship (yes, he was the point guard) and won the Wooden award as the best HS player in the state. He was very heavily recruited. The only reason Moore has slipped below Hinrich and Ridnour is that he missed most of the collegiate season due to injury.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> We will just have to wait and see. I think you are right that Hinrich is a little more polished right now. But in two years?
> ...


This is true, and I personally think he should stick around for his senior year. But I believe Hinrich will be the better pro, there's really no doubt in my mind. Moore might become a good player, but right now he looks like a long shot IMO. Maybe not, but he still does not have the distribution skills or the same talent of running the offense and pushing it up-court that Hinrich has. Even if Moore does have more potential (I don't think so, but maybe), Hinrich's a much better fit IMO.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

First of all don't apologize for a long post it was good. Its better reading a bigger post then a smaller one.

Now let me do the correcting. :grinning: 



> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 2. I think Shortsianitis will be gone. It depends on how tall he is, which is in doubt. If he is only 6-8, as some suspect, he may slide to the Celtics at 16. If he is 6-10, he will be a lottery pick. I have seen highlight tapes of him, and he certainly takes up alot of space.


Personaly I don't care if he is 6-8 or 6-10, size doesn't matter all that matters is the will and you can ask Ben Wallce about that.

Pavel, is a huge guy, I have some interviews of him all saying that he's a good player.

A reason why I wouldn't like to pick up two guys is:
1) Darius Songaila
2) Guys like Skinner will be FA's and we will be able to use out MLE, also Baker might come out stronger playing alongside Blount or Zo. It would be awesome.

Another FA I like is Marko Jaric, he's 6-7 and plays the point, now doesn't that remind you of Jamal Crawford? How about R. Alston? Nice PGs, but will we have the money?

Its easier to gamble on a big man IMO. (via FA that is).


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> First of all don't apologize for a long post it was good. Its better reading a bigger post then a smaller one.
> 
> Now let me do the correcting. :grinning:
> ...


1. I agree about "Baby Shaq" I would take him at 6-8 too, but other teams would not. The taller he is, the more likely he is to be taken early.

2. Pavel is a Klutz. I think he is a scam. Even if he isn't, he is 18 years old and will not be ready for 2-3- years. 

3. Songaila is a nice player-- a Lithuanian Collison, although smaller than Collison. I guess Songaila was hurt and then came back and had a pretty good year playing in Russia. And he doesn't cost anything lol.

4. I like Brian Skinner, who can rebound and has great dreadlocks. I would be delighted if the Celtics used the MLE on Skinner, because then they could not use it on Andre Miller.

5. Jaric is basically the same player as Planinic, isn't he?

6. Another player I like is Victor Khryapa. Huge upside. But he is not the rebounder they need. But if the were to luck out and get Sweetney at #16, I would not object to drafting Khryapa at #20.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 2. Pavel is a Klutz. I think he is a scam. Even if he isn't, he is 18 years old and will not be ready for 2-3- years.


Baby Shaq is 18 too. But as I said size doesn't matter, so if Baby Shaq is still available we should definitly get him.



> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 3. Songaila is a nice player-- a Lithuanian Collison, although smaller than Collison. I guess Songaila was hurt and then came back and had a pretty good year playing in Russia. And he doesn't cost anything lol.


He's had a very strong year, started out good, got injured, and finished VERY strong, not to mention he's on one of EU best clubs.



> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 4. I like Brian Skinner, who can rebound and has great dreadlocks. I would be delighted if the Celtics used the MLE on Skinner, because then they could not use it on Andre Miller.


I'd rather use the MLE on Zo. Maybe try to get Skinner with the 2 million? I don't think he's worth the whole MLE.



> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 5. Jaric is basically the same player as Planinic, isn't he?


I don't know, but he has skills, I think he'll be a good PG if he continues to play it. IMO Clippers are killing themselfs they have Miller who plays PG, Jaric who play PG, and Odom is playing PG too.



> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 6. Another player I like is Victor Khryapa. Huge upside. But he is not the rebounder they need. But if the were to luck out and get Sweetney at #16, I would not object to drafting Khryapa at #20.


I don't know what to tell you, but I think that Michael and Nick will are kinda slow getting up the floor, or at least from what I have read. We are gonna be a fastbreak team next year (hopefully), and since they are slow I don't think it will help this team. Also they say that Michael is not a athlete...we definitly need one....

Victor Khryapa on the other hand is projected to go in the late first/early second round, and they way he plays defense don't be surrprised to see him at the end of he bench...

BTW tell me what you think of Alston


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Rafer Alston strikes me as more of a scorer than a distributor. If memory serves, he is a NYC kid who went out to play for Tark the Shark at Fresno State. Again, he is one of the many, many FA point guards available this year.

BTW, I was thinking of Brian Grant (who is not a FA) rather than Skinner. Yes I think they might very well get Skinner for $2M. I think he would be a useful addition-- a younger version of Grant Long.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> Rafer Alston strikes me as more of a scorer than a distributor. If memory serves, he is a NYC kid who went out to play for Tark the Shark at Fresno State. Again, he is one of the many, many FA point guards available this year.
> 
> BTW, I was thinking of Brian Grant (who is not a FA) rather than Skinner. Yes I think they might very well get Skinner for $2M. I think he would be a useful addition-- a younger version of Grant Long.


I know what you mean about Alston, but look at his stats he's averaged 8 points and 4 assists in only 20 minutes per game.
In his last 5 games he's averaged 19 PPG and 6 assists, not bad. I would like to see him play for us, the worst he could be is Nick Van Exel, but in Green. 

Brian Grant would be huge for us. Even if he was a FA we wouldn't be able to get him. I would get Skinner for 2 million two, but there might be some other guys worth looking at Bowen would be one of them, we could try to offer him the MLE, but if he plays bad in the remainder of the playoffs. It would be OB's wet dream to have Bowen on the C's, plays great D, and shoots the 3.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> I would get Skinner for 2 million two, but there might be some other guys worth looking at Bowen would be one of them, we could try to offer him the MLE, but if he plays bad in the remainder of the playoffs. It would be OB's wet dream to have Bowen on the C's, plays great D, and shoots the 3.


Wet dream? Too bad we didn't keep Bowen when we had him.

Let's see. If we had drafted Eddie Jones instead of Montross, and if we had kept David Wesley and Rick Fox, and if we had taken a pass on Travis Knight, and if we hadn't given such a huge contract to out-of-service Pervis, and if someone had figured out that Ben Wallace had a huge heart even though he couldn't shoot free throws, and if we had drafted Tony Parker instead of Forte, and if someone had thought to package picks #11 and #12 to move up to #8 or #9 the next year to get Amare Stoudamire, or at least if they had taken Richard Jefferson instead of Joe Johnson, and if someone had taken the time to investigate Vin Baker's drinking habits.... Oh well, it is too painful to think about the performance of ML Carr, Rick Pitino and Chris Wallace as evaluators of NBA talent. For all his mistakes, Wallace was the best of the three, but that isn't saying much.

If Ainge drafts Hinrich and Collison this June (the safe but completely lackluster route), it will indicate to me that he has no cohones and that he is no better than the other three.


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## FatDaddy (Nov 13, 2002)

Ginobili is better than Miller. If you get Ginobili, you'll save 50M in 7 years.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FatDaddy</b>!
> Ginobili is better than Miller. If you get Ginobili, you'll save 50M in 7 years.


Ginobili is 100 times better than Miller. But is he available?


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Ginobli is not a PG, and no he's not available. 

Also I thought that Bowen was a FA, I was wrong he's not.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

How about A. Griffen? Now there's a guy you could always use.


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> How about A. Griffen? Now there's a guy you could always use.


I don't think we ever should have let Griffin go. He became a starter on one of the best teams in the West. He wouldn't have cost that much either. He has great hands on defense and rebounding. I loved Adrian when he played here. But hopefully, Kedrick will be able to be a guy like Adrian, only more athletic.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mrsister</b>!
> I loved Adrian when he played here. But hopefully, Kedrick will be able to be a guy like Adrian, only more athletic.


Say what? Griffin and Brown are total opposites. Griffin is a highly intelligent player with incredibly sound fundamentals. That's why his nickname is "Old School." Grfiffin's problem is that he is undersized and not particularly athletic.

Brown, in contrast, is a super athlete who does not yet know how to play the game. If you could put Griffin's head on Brown's body you would have the best player in the NBA,


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Brown, in contrast, is a super athlete who does not yet know how to play the game. If you could put Griffin's head on Brown's body you would have the best player in the NBA,


That's why I said will be. I know he's not. The similarities, I think, are the quick hands and anticipation on defense. They both have the ability to break up plays. Hey, if we can get Griffin back while still getting a PG and big man, I'd love it.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Don't you just love Wallace he always find kids like that. Griffen, Bowen, Ben Wallace, JR Bremer....lets hope he just stays our scout.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Speaking of ex-Celtics, I see that Brian Shaw is also a FA.


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## mactowndon (May 8, 2003)

I think that Andre Miller would be a good investment for Boston, but who would they trade for him?


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mactowndon</b>!
> I think that Andre Miller would be a good investment for Boston, but who would they trade for him?


MLE, he's a free agent.


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mactowndon</b>!
> I think that Andre Miller would be a good investment for Boston, but who would they trade for him?


I say make a full fledged attack at getting DRE, hez wut we need, and we can use the exception and a pick or an ewill to get him, letz see wut ainge has up his sleeve........


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

I would not trade for Miller. I would offer the MLE. If that is not enough then go after a different point.


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## The_Truth_34_Sky_8 (May 27, 2003)

and dont forget about david welsey


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## FatDaddy (Nov 13, 2002)

Miller does not play defence.


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## sologigolos (May 27, 2003)

thoughts on this thread as a collective.

Andre Miller - definitely an NBA point guard. So maybe he's not a winner. But that doesn't mean anything. You wanna pick Otis Thorpe over Karl Malone, go ahead. (no knock to Otis, but Malone kicked some serious butt). Especially for an MLE, he will be excellent.

however..... with the MLE

I've been hearing that Zo may be available with the MLE. Is this true? Or another pipe dream? If he is, and I don't care if he's only available for 65 games a season at about 25 minutes a game, we need to explore that option. Look at winners of past. Many teams have won with a "mediocre" point guards, but have never (exception of Jordan's Bulls) won without a true center/big man, whether it be Hakeem (with Kenny Smith at point), T. Duncan (Avery Johnson), etc, etc. Yeah, Magic won too, but he had Kareem. I just feel that a big man is something that we need to address more than we do point guards.

Besides, especially this draft, there are a lot of "serviceable" point guards coming out, and if need be, there are some we may even be able to sign, as Big John pointed out (although I like the draft idea better).

To rebut Big John, having an NBA body means nothing. Body, size, upside, these are all good. But all secondary. Today's NBA is so disillusioned with these abstract ideas inflate/deflate players unjustly.

I would love to see Luke Ridnour fall to 16. That would be beautiful. And who knows? Maybe Ridnour and Hinrich will hopefully (terrible hope) suffer a Dan Dickau fall (as i mentioned in another post). Problem with Leandrinho Barbosa (?) remains the communication skills.

Tony Parker, as good as he is, is still not an NBA caliber point guard. THis is why SA wants Kidd so badly. He;s not a playmaker, just another 6-1 SG with no defense (i mean, i lvoe the kid, but it's true).

BTW, as far as Troy Bell goes, no he's not a PG eeither. Even last year, we knew this. I would still love him, but then we'd have to part with JR Bremer. A cointoss, i think, similar players. BUt I've always loved Bell.

Regarding Sofoklis - at 6-8, he could still be good provided skills. See - Elton Brand and Ben Wallace. Or even Charles Barkley (who was a shade under 6-5). If He's on the board, I say we go for him. 

Regarding K. Brown - we could have held off on exercising our option on that pick - i.e. let Denver have that pick 2 yrs ago and take their pick last year. That pick, btw, ended up being Nene, and we couild have had Dajuan Wagner or Amare.... basically we woulda had a 6th pick. I don't understand why we jumped at thee 11th pick in such a weak weak weak draft. There was no way Denver was gonna make the playoffs, so the worst case scenario was that we end up with their #13, and i think it would have been worth the gamble.

No, Chris Wallace has good eye for talent, but his decision making is suspect.

Of course, Rick Pitino was a tool and a half. And ML Carr wasn't eeven half a tool.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Offseason 2003*

Anyone who wants to trade Eric Williams should be sent to Guantanamo Bay for a year! This guy was the MVP of the season after Pierce. He always gets the huge offensive board or loose ball and is our only legitimate post-up threat. He also plays defense. What a concept!

We need a PG more than anything else. Battie/Baker/Blount is not good, but serviceable. I've seen enough in the Indy-NJ series of Delk and Bremer falling down dribbling to know what our real weakness is. 

Andre Miller would be HUGE; I love him, big, physical, can push it up quickly. The beautiful thing he killed his value this past season. I am not so sure the Clippers would match an offer for him, even if it is just MLE. The question is, would he want to come here? It all depends on what other offers he has. Orlando, Milwaukee, Seattle and several other teams come to mind, but a chance to play alongside Pierce and Walker might be enticing, even for an LA boy.

As for the draft, the Knicks may be looking to trade their #9 pick. I don't know that 16 and 20 would be enough, though. Maybe we include another future first or second rounder.

Players I would love to get w/our picks: Hinrich (if we can move up) Baby Shaq, Collison, West, Barbosa

I love JR Bremer, too, but c'mon guys. This guy is so limited it is scary. I've never seen a guard who shoots a higher percentage from 25 feet than from 2 feet (layups) until I saw him. Love him, great kid, but if he's playing more than 20 minutes a game next year, we're in trouble.

As for Adrian Griffin and Kedrick, I don't know what the original thread said, but give me AG any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I sure hope Kedrick is working on his shot as we speak.

Whoever said that thread about Wallace being a good scout and finding the diamonds in the rough was very astute. But you're crazy if you think he'd stay as long as another GM post was available. Also, he may be great at finding the Bowens, Griffins and Bremers, but he is one of the worst drafters in the league. Imagine having Troy Murphy, Zach Randolph and Tony Parker instead of Joe Johnson, Kedrick and Forte. We could have had them all (and I'm not just second-guessing, I wanted all three). If he stays, it's great for us because he can scout well. If he leaves, I hope he goes to somebody in the East so he can botch their drafts.


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