# OT: Please explain why Ben Wallace is suspended for six games.



## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

I absolutely understand the suspensions that Jax, Artest, and JO got. They all hit new lows in player violence.

But all that Ben Wallace did was shove a guy with two hands in the chest. That usually results in an ejection and rarely even a one game suspension.

The fact that the fan who threw a cup at Artest made a terrible decision and the fact that Artest and Jax then made a terrible decision in respons to that. ANd the fact that the two fans who went onto the court made bad decisions and the fact that JO and Artest made bad decisions in reaction to that... absolutely NONE of that can be blamed on Ben Wallace.

If the league gave him 1-3 games, that would be their prerogative. But SIX??? It's impossible to justify. You can't blame Ben Wallace for other people's actions. Essentially, his suspensions is longer because of the actions of others and that is unfair.


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## chris_in_pdx (Jul 11, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Essentially, his suspensions is longer because of the actions of others and that is unfair.


Unfair, perhaps, but he started the whole mess. Plus he wasn't doing anything to calm the mob when the real stuff started coming down. In fact, he continued to try to fight through teammates and coaches to get to Artest for almost 2 minutes before the "Cup Of Destiny" hit Artest in the face. He deserves his share of the blame.


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

I couldn't figure that one out either. Perhaps he did something that wasn't shown us on tape?


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

He didn't start the whole mess.

The whole mess, the actions that made this a big news story on CNN, began when Artest chose to attack a fan. 

Even the cup of beer didn't really start the mess. Drinks have been thrown onto the court before and no one cares.

Also, remember this: For all we know, the guy was trying to throw the drink onto the court and missed!

Also- is the scoring table supposed to be used as a cot for players? Don't think so.

This MESS started when Artest attacked a fan. Otherwise, it was just your average fracas that results in an ejection and no suspensions at all.

Remember- Shaq only got TWO games for throwing that roundhouse punch at Brad Miller.

Ben Wallace gets SIX games because Artest has poor judgement??


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## furball (Jul 25, 2004)

Ben got screwed. I thought he deserved three games. 1-2 for pushing Artest like that, and one for continuing to jaw and throwing the headband at Artest. 

I know you don't agree Nathan, but I dont think Jermain deserved 25 games.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> 
> Also, remember this: For all we know, the guy was trying to throw the drink onto the court and missed!


Laughable. :no: As opposed to a a trash can?


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> If the league gave him 1-3 games, that would be their prerogative.  But SIX??? It's impossible to justify. You can't blame Ben Wallace for other people's actions. Essentially, his suspensions is longer because of the actions of others and that is unfair.


I feel Ben got off light. Dude had a whole lot to do with why this escalated into the ugly incidentit became. 

-He overreacted to a hard foul
-He wouldn't calm down for minutes afterwords dispite several teammates holding him back, and with little to no responce from Artest and the Pacers.
-With Artest lying back not responding, he threw an object of some sorts at him
-He started waving his arms at the crowd exhorting them to become more upset and the gave an _up yours_ gesture right before the stuff started flying out of the stands

All this over a hard foul in a game that was all but decided and done. I'm usually a big fan of the way he plays, but his behavior Friday night was pathetic IMO. Not only is it possible to justify the suspension that he recieved, but I think it would be easy to argue that he deserved much more. 

Can anyone name another sports league that allows it's players to carry on anything like Wallace did over an incident? I hope they give quicker hooks in general, and crack down on the constant whining/lobbying for calls that players do so regularly throughout games. Clean that bleep up and play ball.

STOMP


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## Playmaker0017 (Feb 13, 2004)

The league needed to take a stand and make an example of all that were involved.

In fact, I think the league goes too soft on these "wanna-be boxers". They ought to send them the real stiff one. 

Fighting at a basketball game is not even something that should be tolerated. 

Jermaine O'Neal got off light. Stephen Jackson got off light. They both should have faced season long ejections.

Play.


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## kaydow (Apr 6, 2004)

I was surprised to hear the media call out Wallace like they did. The theory that the whole debacle doesn't happen if Ben doesn't push Artest is highly flawed. Should he have pushed him? Of Course not. But the obvious question: If Artest, O'Neil, Jackson, and the rest of the Pacers go to the locker room and there's no brawl, how many games does Ben get suspended (if any at all)? Not six!!!


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## chris_in_pdx (Jul 11, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> He didn't start the whole mess.


Yes, he did. Artest's foul was hard, but was in no way flagrant. Wallace was visably upset the the Pistons were having their *** handed to them in the game, and if anyone "snapped", it was Big Ben. Artest backed off and layed on the scorer's table to show he wasn't getting involved in ANYTHING to get himself suspended again. For those two minutes, Wallace was the instigator, with him continuing and continuing to try to get through people to get to Artest. Wallace was also riling up the drunk fans with him.



> The whole mess, the actions that made this a big news story on CNN, began when Artest chose to attack a fan.


Incorrect. Watch the tape again.



> Even the cup of beer didn't really start the mess. Drinks have been thrown onto the court before and no one cares.


Incorrect. The league cares. Security cares. You are simply trying to demonify Ron Artest. While he deserves the full blame for going into the stands after the fans who physically and verbally attacked him, he didn't start it. You can't spin this one.



> Also, remember this: For all we know, the guy was trying to throw the drink onto the court and missed!


That's even a stretch of logic for you. The fan that threw the cup at him threw at point blank range. That guy should be tossed in jail for years for inciting a riot. At least for physical assault.



> Also- is the scoring table supposed to be used as a cot for players? Don't think so.


This sentance has absolutely no meaning. Just an attempt at a cheap shot, which utterly failed.



> This MESS started when Artest attacked a fan. Otherwise, it was just your average fracas that results in an ejection and no suspensions at all.


I'm glad you believe that. It's also incorrect. The fans crossed the line. Unfortunately, Ron Artest is the kind of man that can't simply let that slide. Other players could. Unfortunate circumstances. Artest deserves his punishment. But the other players, INCLUDING BEN WALLACE, deserve theirs for their part.



> Remember- Shaq only got TWO games for throwing that roundhouse punch at Brad Miller.


And would have been banned for life if the punch connected, since Brad Miller would have been killed or at least seriously injured. What does this have to do with anything about this incident? NOTHING.



> Ben Wallace gets SIX games because Artest has poor judgement??


Ben Wallace gets six games because he was a poor loser and he decided to light the power keg.


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## Bwatcher (Dec 31, 2002)

In other circumstances B Wallace would not get 6 games for his actions. However, the league needs to also consider that this is a competitive situation, on the Pistons home court. 

So far, it looks like the Pistons and their fans really "won" quite a bit by this incident. The Pacers have effectivley been crippled for about one-third of the season. Detroit is only penalized 6 games, or about 1/4 to 1/5 of the penalty for the Pacers. And this is with B Wallace getting a heavy penalty. 

Viewed from the competitive standpoint, it sort of looks like the home team has a greater advantage now, since if they can manage to rile the opposing players enough, they may get them suspended for several games.


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## CrGiants (Dec 4, 2003)

If O'Neal and Jackson, who you say got off light, deserved season-long suspensions, what should Artest have been given.

Jackson went psycho, so I expected him to get longer than he did. And Artest is just crazy, and I think this suspension is just one thing on his long list. O'Neal's punch was unnecessary, perhaps, but the fan came on the court. 

Justice will not have been served until the fans involved are held responsible for their despicable actions.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Bwatcher</b>!
> In other circumstances B Wallace would not get 6 games for his actions. However, the league needs to also consider that this is a competitive situation, on the Pistons home court.


I agree - if Artest doesn't go into the stands, Ben probably gets 3 games at most. On the other hand, if Artest goes into the stands and fights one guy but everyone else restrains themselves, then Artest probably only gets 10 or 20 games. Both got longer penalties because of what followed their actions.



> So far, it looks like the Pistons and their fans really "won" quite a bit by this incident. The Pacers have effectivley been crippled for about one-third of the season. YDetroit is only penalized 6 games, or about 1/4 to 1/5 of the penalty for the Pacers. And this is with B Wallace getting a heavy penalty.
> 
> Viewed from the competitive standpoint, it sort of looks like the home team has a greater advantage now, since if they can manage to rile the opposing players enough, they may get them suspended for several games.


Yep. Pacers have only themselves to blame, though. They let the crowd beat them. That's an unforced mental error. They just weren't professional enough to handle the situation. Bet all the other teams are now conducting seminars on how to handle unruly crowds. 

barfo


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

Probably a bit harsh on Ben... though there was so much going on who knows. I did see him on top of the scorers table directing traffic at one point. I really didn't think it was that hard of a foul. I was at a sports bar watching the blazers on another channel, but I could still see both games. It really didn't look like much. It should have been a flagrent two and then what... is that automatic game or something? He didn't deserve 6 games... unless something happened I didn't see.

As far as Artest and the crew goes... they will get no sympathy for me... any other job they would have been fired. Gone from the league... all of them is fine with me. I hope they end up in jail.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> But all that Ben Wallace did was shove a guy with two hands in the chest.


Since every other sentence in your post except this one has been corrected to reflect reality and not your fantasy view of what took place, I'll field this one.

Sore loser Ben Wallace pushed Artest quite forcibly under the chin (not in the chest) and I'm surprised he didn't snap his neck in doing it.

It was an extremely dangerous and idiotic thing to do and I expected him to get a much more severe punishment than he did.

He got off light because Stern hates Artest, admittedly with good reason.

Had he done it to Tim Duncan he'd really be sitting out.

:naughty:


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

*Re: Re: OT: Please explain why Ben Wallace is suspended for six games.*



> Originally posted by <b>chris_in_pdx</b>!
> 
> 
> Unfair, perhaps, but he started the whole mess.


He didn't start it as far as any reasonable expectations go. If we're not going to be concerned with reasonable expectations, why not blame Artest for fouling Wallace hard and thus "starting this whole mess?"

Just as one can say, "if Wallace didn't attack Artest, all the rest wouldn't have happened," we can also say, "if Artest didn't foul Wallace, all the rest wouldn't have happened."

Or maybe it *was* Wallace for trying to score, leading to Artest's foul and the whole mess.

Or maybe we're starting the causal chain from the wrong place entirely. What about the concessioneer who sold the fan the beer? Had he not done that, the fan would have had no beer to throw. Or what role does parenting play in the mindset of the fan leading him to throw the beer?

Clearly, causality is a tricky thing and it's pretty arbitrary where you "start" the whole thing. All we have is actual actions and reasonable expectations.

Whn Artest fouled Wallace hard, there was no reasonable expectations of what would follow.

When Wallace shoved Artest, there was still no human on Earth who could have predicted a riot would eventually result.

Therefore, there's no reasonable way to put any blame on Wallace for the riot. Just as one can't blame Artest's hard foul for it either. Neither action *should* have resulted in what followed and both are pretty common.

Wallace should have received the normal penalty for his actions, a 1-2 game suspension.


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

I'm amazed no one has pointed the blame at Ron-Ron's mom yet. Gotta go to the source.

Dan


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
> I'm amazed no one has pointed the blame at Ron-Ron's mom yet. Gotta go to the source.
> 
> Dan


Adam and frickin' Eve are to blame for the whole mess. And don't tell me about the serpent. The serpent has a bad rep but he deserves no more than two days, tops.

barfo


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## Goldmember (May 24, 2003)

I agree that if Artest doesn't run into the stands, Big Ben gets maybe one or two games. Maybe just a fine. 

But like it or not, Wallace is being made an example. This brawl sets a dangerous precident. Stern is sending a message to the players that the kinds of flagrant actions like the one made by Wallace has potential to blow up into something huge and that cannot be allowed to happen again.

I also believe strongly that the fans that were involved should be heavily prosecuted and their penalties should be made public just like the players. These guys should be made an example as well. 

What's to stop drunken fans from throwing their beers if there's a chance that it might lead to major suspensions to a rivals team? Not to mention a nice fat NBA money lawsuit.


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

I wonder what the penalty for thowing a cup of water at someone is?

I mean... if you throw something... you should get kicked out (assuming it isn't a dangerous object) Except for the chair... nothing dangerous was thrown was it?

I can remember a few years back with the Bill Walton Beeny Babies in Portland... there was a bad call and hundreds of them started flying out of the stands.... granted... not thrown AT anyone. (And yes... this was long after Walton was gone)


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## Playmaker0017 (Feb 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Paxil</b>!
> I wonder what the penalty for thowing a cup of water at someone is?


By definition, the act of throwing the cup at someone is known as assault. The act of hitting them with the cup is battery.

The minimum consequences for assault & battery depend on the court system and the location of the attack. My guess is a stiff fine in civil court and some decent jail time in criminal court.

The major one that he will face though is inciting a roit. That will carry some heavy penalties.



> I mean... if you throw something... you should get kicked out (assuming it isn't a dangerous object) Except for the chair... nothing dangerous was thrown was it?


Doesn't matter. 

A violent threat, according to our legal system, is assault. Whether or not it is acted upon, it is still assualt. The follow through is far more punishable, but assault is still an offense.

Personally, I think they need to start bringing down the house on these idiots. There is no excuse for yelling the things fans yell at these players. There is no excuse for their actions. There is no excuse for the actions the other night.

If they can find those involved, they need to come at them with the house. 

Play.


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## Ukrainefan (Aug 1, 2003)

I''ve missed most of these discussions so forgive me if anyone has already expressed these opinions, but it does seem wrong that indiana's season is destroyed because of something instigated by a Detroit player and Detroit fans. How about sending a message to teams that they have to have better security behind the opposing team's bench? How about requiring Detroit to play their next three home games without any fans? Or taking away their first round draft choice next year?


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## Playmaker0017 (Feb 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ukrainefan</b>!
> I''ve missed most of these discussions so forgive me if anyone has already expressed these opinions, but it does seem wrong that indiana's season is destroyed because of something instigated by a Detroit player and Detroit fans.


It wasn't.

A cup of beer does not give someone a freedom to attack. There was no self-defense clause in this situation as the fan that threw the beer was not a true threat. 

Self-defense allows for reasonable response. Artest and the Pacer's response was not reasonable.



> How about sending a message to teams that they have to have better security behind the opposing team's bench?


There is no amount of security that could truly prevent such an incident short of an armed militia. A small group of fans outweigh, overpower and outstaff any security team that could be assembled reasonably. 

Blaming this on security is the wrong direction for the blame. 



> How about requiring Detroit to play their next three home games without any fans?


Blame the masses for the few? I guess by that token, the entire league should bar fans ... just in case. And no more alcohol. 

That is completely misguided. 

You would punish little 10 year old Bobby, who just wants to see his heroes because of the actions of someone else? 



> Or taking away their first round draft choice next year?


What does the action of a fan have to do with the draft? Nothing. There is no relation there.

Play.


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## Ukrainefan (Aug 1, 2003)

I wasn't defending the action of any indiana players. I was just saying I felt the Detroit organization has some culpability. I think you're right, little Boby shouldn't be penalized, so how about if Detroit is forced to let all fans in for free for five games?


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Ben should be suspended for the rest of the season, too.

He is the one who is responsible for the incident.


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## Playmaker0017 (Feb 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> Ben should be suspended for the rest of the season, too.


That's a LOT harsh.

He did instigate to the point of incident, but he cannot be held wholly accountable for the actions of others.

The worst you can say is that he incited the riot, but I think that's a stretch.

But, I do think the league needs to start responding to fights more viciously. These guys aren't boxers. They aren't tough guys. There is no need for fists to be thrown. Ever.



> He is the one who is responsible for the incident.


That's like lying the blame of September 11th and the foot of the airlines. The responsible party is the terrorists and that is the only real responsible party.

The responsible party is the fan.

Was the riot a forseeable reaction to Wallace's response? No. 

I don't condone or endorse Wallace's actions, but he is hardly responsible.

Play.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> I absolutely understand the suspensions that Jax, Artest, and JO got. They all hit new lows in player violence.
> 
> But all that Ben Wallace did was shove a guy with two hands in the chest. That usually results in an ejection and rarely even a one game suspension.


It is a damn good question - a game or 2 at the most is all he should have gotten.


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

> By definition, the act of throwing the cup at someone is known as assault. The act of hitting them with the cup is battery. -Play


Good Lord I was assaulted so many times by my ex wife... I can count them all! :laugh: 

Regardless of what our legal system may choose to call it... I don't feel that fan assaulted anyone when he tossed that cup of water.


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