# Derrick Rose...



## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

6 games in has been pretty disappointing if you ask me
He is like 21 years old so I dont expect him to dominate everygame
But he was supposed to be a top 5/10 PG this season 12/6 isnt cutting it and its not like he isnt getting the minutes/touches


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Thats because he's not looking to score, I was wrong, he's looking to pass rather than score, nad looks out of sync at times. Noah's been playing out of his mind though, and the rest of the team is getting it done, despite Rose' disappointing start to the season. Maybe he's still injured.


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## A_wildstabatanything (Jun 18, 2003)

Don't worry. Jose Calderon will help get him back on track Wednesday night.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

He's still nursing an injury.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

^^^.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Derrick Rose simply isn't going to be that superstar that he was hyped up to be. He might be an allstar in time, but I think the other Chicago guard...that they just got rid of, will go down having a better career than Rose.

I think Bulls probably would have been best suited to just stay at #9 in that draft. They surely would have taken Brook Lopez, and as a result would have probably kept Gordon. A Noah/Lopez front court would be SICK.

But Joakim Noah has been great. He's having a DPOY kind of year, and him, Brad Miller, Luol Deng, and Tyrus Thomas when he was healthy, have provided great defense all year, and are the reason for the Bulls great defense.


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## vinsanity77 (May 1, 2006)

BG7 said:


> Derrick Rose simply isn't going to be that superstar that he was hyped up to be. He might be an allstar in time, *but I think the other Chicago guard...that they just got rid of, will go down having a better career than Rose.*
> 
> I think Bulls probably would have been best suited to just stay at #9 in that draft. They surely would have taken Brook Lopez, and as a result would have probably kept Gordon. A Noah/Lopez front court would be SICK.
> 
> But Joakim Noah has been great. He's having a DPOY kind of year, and him, Brad Miller, Luol Deng, and Tyrus Thomas when he was healthy, have provided great defense all year, and are the reason for the Bulls great defense.


Based on your username, i guess so.

It's funny how people quickly dismiss players because they're playing injured or is in a slump.

Rose will be a top 5 PG in the league at least in 2 years. You can quote me on it


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

vinsanity77 said:


> Based on your username, i guess so.
> 
> It's funny how people quickly dismiss players because they're playing injured or is in a slump.
> 
> Rose will be a top 5 PG in the league at least in 2 years. You can quote me on it


Rose isn't injured. He might have rust from not playing, but he is moving around fine.

The problem with Rose is that he has no means of scoring the ball efficiently. He can't hit the three point shot, and he doesn't draw fouls. A guard who can do neither of those two things is going to be an inefficient scorer, and have a negative impact on the team's scoring. 

And he has yet to really show any consistent ability to be an elite playmaker. I don't think Rose will continue to play this bad, I hope not. But I just can't see Rose becoming a superstar. He just doesn't look the part imo.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

2 weeks into the season.. assumptions are a dangerous thing right now, Rose will be fine


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

Well, I guess I better hope he starts playing better because I've got him on one of my fantasy squads.

The 7 TOs tonight were brutal. His assist/turnover ratio on the season is pretty bad.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

derrick rose is a tony parker type PG...he CAN score like crazy of you let him loose, he doesn't have great court vision, and makes stupid decisions at times...but he can actually run an offense, and he plays excellent defense (the tony parker comparisons are over). you either have to put him on a team where he is playing with other stars, or tell him to let loose on the bulls...then you will see greatness...when he looks to be a classic PG, is when he plays terrible


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

He cant score like crazy...the ability is there, but he's so damn tentative.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

BG7 said:


> Rose isn't injured. He might have rust from not playing, but he is moving around fine.
> 
> The problem with Rose is that he has no means of scoring the ball efficiently. He can't hit the three point shot, and he doesn't draw fouls. A guard who can do neither of those two things is going to be an inefficient scorer, and have a negative impact on the team's scoring.
> 
> And he has yet to really show any consistent ability to be an elite playmaker. I don't think Rose will continue to play this bad, I hope not. But I just can't see Rose becoming a superstar. He just doesn't look the part imo.


are we watching the same guy? Rose's mid-range game has improved quite a bit since last year. as far as drawing fouls, he does seem to be playing tentative. but I think he will get it back. my estimate for his talent level is that of being slightly better than Tony Parker, which is damned good.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Still carrying an injury. I'm not a huge Rose fan, but it's obvious that he's not 100 percent yet.


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## vinsanity77 (May 1, 2006)

BG7 said:


> *Rose isn't injured*. He might have rust from not playing, but he is moving around fine.
> 
> The problem with Rose is that he has no means of scoring the ball efficiently. He can't hit the three point shot, and he doesn't draw fouls. A guard who can do neither of those two things is going to be an inefficient scorer, and have a negative impact on the team's scoring.
> 
> And he has yet to really show any consistent ability to be an elite playmaker. I don't think Rose will continue to play this bad, I hope not. But I just can't see Rose becoming a superstar. He just doesn't look the part imo.


He missed all of preseason due to his ankle, but suddenly he becomes 100% for the regular season? Obviously he is playing through his injury, which is why he seems tentative right now. He probably needs surgery, but if he does, he will probably miss more than half the season, especially if it is anything related to his achilles heel. If he does miss that much, the bulls will probably miss the playoffs because, he is imo the Bull's best player


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Why is BG7 still talking like Gordon has so much upside?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dont know about Rose playing through injury, he said it himself that he feels great.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

He's obviously not completley healthy yet. He'll be fine.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> ...when he looks to be a classic PG, is when he plays terrible


 agree


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

well supposedly the ankle is STILL not 100% 
I understand injury and everything but Rose has done very little this year
If you ask me he doesnt deserve to be on the sophmore team and is a little bit overrated at this point
Im not sure he ever plays at the level that Evans and Jennings project to be at


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

fjkdsi said:


> well supposedly the ankle is STILL not 100%
> I understand injury and everything but Rose has done very little this year
> If you ask me he doesnt deserve to be on the sophmore team and is a little bit overrated at this point
> Im not sure he ever plays at the level that Evans and Jennings project to be at


Who the hell would you put above him?


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## carlos710 (Jun 13, 2002)

VanillaPrice said:


> Who the hell would you put above him?


At first I also thought that it would be ridiculous to left Rose out of the sophomore team. Then I remembered that a lot of players in their 2nd year are playing great:

Guys that have been better by a solid margin:
Brook Lopez / Marc Gasol / Westbrook / beasley / Gallinari

Guys that are playing at least at the same level than rose, and you can argue than all of them have been better:
Oj Mayo / EricGordon / DouglasRoberts / JasonThompson

wildcard:
Kevin love (I think he will be the best player on the wolves this season)

Obviously, it would be a huge surprise if Rose don't make the team, but it's not as crazy as it sounds to claim that he hasn't been a top 10 sophomore this season


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

Gallinari has been playing some solid ball recently. a much welcome surprise for Knick fans I'm sure.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

carlos710 said:


> At first I also thought that it would be ridiculous to left Rose out of the sophomore team. Then I remembered that a lot of players in their 2nd year are playing great:
> 
> Guys that have been better by a solid margin:
> Brook Lopez / Marc Gasol / Westbrook / beasley / Gallinari
> ...


Also Anthony Morrow, Ersan Ilyasova and Mario Chalmers
Honestly I would rather have Chalmers at point for most teams than Rose the way both have played THIS season
Chalmers better D/more effecient/better shooter


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

I think he's being hurt by the lack of offensive talent around him this year.

I have no idea why they thought they could replace Ben Gordon with John Salmons and not lose anything. That reeked of BS even at the time.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Apparently he's still injured...no idea how much truth is in that, he doesn't look to be playing through too much pain, I just think he needs team-mates to hit shots for the stats to show him playing well. I haven't watched him but I guess if you just look at the stats, it's going to look bad.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> Why is BG7 still talking like Gordon has so much upside?


It depends on the fit. I still think with Ben Gordon, the Bulls would finish 5th in the East this year


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Plenty of excuses for this cat. I guess we ignore the fact that he wasn't really that spectacular last season.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Based on what I've seen Rose will have to find himself a mid range game. Everyone has the scouting report on him and they're closing up the paint. He's not all that great with the drive and kick, although it's not like the Bulls have good shooters either. The only way to make people play you honest is to beat them with what they're giving you. He's got to hit the 17 footer.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

That is a good point. It's been said so many times, but one of the huge things that is setting CP3, Deron etc. apart from him, is that they can consistently hit that jump-shot. He's young so can learn it, but he'll have to do it fast if we wants to be considered top 5 point-guards in the league standard.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Paul kills people with the elbow jumper. Everyone knows he can hit it, but they just let him have that easy 15 footer rather than let him get into the paint. Rose needs to at least make people worry that he might hit it.


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

Derrick Rose had his best overall game of the season tonight. 27 points, 10 assists, and 7 rebounds. He put the team up by 1 with 19 seconds left but they couldn't hold on. Lost to the Nets. The Bulls need alot of help.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

He looked a lot more aggressive against Hawks last night, and got to the rim with ease at times. He still doesn't look like he wants to be doing it though, which is unfortunate for Chicago.


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

FX™ said:


> He looked a lot more aggressive against Hawks last night, and got to the rim with ease at times. He still doesn't look like he wants to be doing it though, which is unfortunate for Chicago.


Rose needs a dominant scorer playing ball with him, who wants to take those shots. With Ben Gordon they had a guy who wanted that damn ball, especially at the end of games. Rose is a point guard, and his mindset isn't to be the dominant scorer, it's to run the point. I think the Bulls are going to struggle until they get a great scorer next to him again. DWade or Joe Johnson would be nice, along with a big man with an offensive game. Then the Bulls would really take off.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

ScottVdub said:


> Rose needs a dominant scorer playing ball with him, who wants to take those shots. With Ben Gordon they had a guy who wanted that damn ball, especially at the end of games. Rose is a point guard, and his mindset isn't to be the dominant scorer, it's to run the point. I think the Bulls are going to struggle until they get a great scorer next to him again. DWade or Joe Johnson would be nice, along with a big man with an offensive game. Then the Bulls would really take off.


something to consider........he's still not 100 percent and is still complaining about pain in his ankle......


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

Another thing to consider is that he's just not that good.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dont know about that, with his skillset he should be good for 20ppg 8apg.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Like Diable said, he doesn't have a jumper. It's easy to number crunch and project production based on a "skillset", but basketball is nothing but a continuous series of independent possessions. What is defended correctly once will continue to be defended correctly if all things remain equal.

If the guy is scouted as having no jumper, he's rendered useless because he has few other ways to score, play after play. Rose is explosive enough (when healthy) to will himself to a couple of scores, but skills always tell the story in the end. 

It's very simple, the Bulls are getting the paint packed against them because they don't have any shooters that'll burn the defense. It's on Rose to gain the skills that'll draw him more attention, because the Bulls have him in place as their franchise. Once he becomes even an above average shooter and this lack of impact continues, then it's fully on Bulls management.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I dont know where you all get this he cant shoot notion, he's not a lights out shooter by any means, but compared to what he did last year and at Memphis, his mid-range game has improved a lot. Matter of fact he uses it more often nowadays, its just he is so damn passive out there. You guys forget that the guys with similar skillset, Tony Parker, Devin Harris etc took a few years to get respectable jumpers. He's ahead of the curve.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Of course he's improving, but it's not where it needs to be yet, and until it gets there it's a valid reason for his struggles.

And I didn't forget anything when I said "*Once he becomes even an above average shooter* and this lack of impact continues..."

I expect him to be fine.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Rose also is playing with a morally deflated Chicago team starting from Lebron's dirty dancing to Jacks shoe tying, and other other losses. He's probably not completely healthy either but the negativity especially from Noah probably has an impact on how the team is operating right now. Imo Vinny Del ***** has a good chance of being fired if this keeps up.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Its not the shooting thats the problem, because I already think he's an above average shooter, its the fact that he misuses his assets. TP, Harris and CP3 had no jumper per se coming into the league and a few years after, but they were constantly aggressive, putting defenders on their heels, attacking the basket, getting guys in foul trouble. There are numerous times on the court that I forget Rose is even playing. And we are talking about a guy that can get to the rim at will, there's no reason why he shouldn't be getting calls the way Tyreke Evans does.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Jakain said:


> Rose also is playing with a morally deflated Chicago team starting from Lebron's dirty dancing to Jacks shoe tying, and other other losses. He's probably not completely healthy either but the negativity especially from Noah probably has an impact on how the team is operating right now. Imo Vinny Del ***** has a good chance of being fired if this keeps up.


VDN has already sold his home, stay tuned....


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

HB said:


> Its not the shooting thats the problem, because I already think he's an above average shooter, its the fact that he misuses his assets. TP, Harris and CP3 had no jumper per se coming into the league and a few years after, but they were constantly aggressive, putting defenders on their heels, attacking the basket, getting guys in foul trouble. There are numerous times on the court that I forget Rose is even playing. And we are talking about a guy that can get to the rim at will, there's no reason why he shouldn't be getting calls the way Tyreke Evans does.


he,s coming along in this regard as the season progrsses. The cleveland and toronto games notwithstanding, he's been much more aggressive lately. And frankly, his numbers bear that out. He's only 21 guys.....and he's way way ahead of where harris was at the same age. I'd even say he's ahead of where parker was at the same age, and he has significantly more physical tools than either of them. He's 20 games into his second season, and trending upward (compare his second 10 games this season to his first 10) relax and give him time.

tyreke evans is not a pg. He's a scoring guard playing the 1. Ironically, I expect john wall to have the same mentalit, albeit with a higher ceiling. Either way, derrick plays the game differently, and with different objectives than Mr. Evans.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Funny what a season can do. Thorpe ranks the sophomores and Rose' stock has plummeted



> 1. Brook Lopez, Nets | Previous rank: 6
> 2. Marc Gasol, Grizzlies | Previous rank: 1
> 3. Jason Thompson, Kings | Previous rank: 4
> 4. Ersan Ilyasova, Bucks | Previous rank: 15
> ...


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

This is what happens when you want to get a coach fired.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> Funny what a season can do. Thorpe ranks the sophomores and Rose' stock has plummeted


I'm assuming this is a weekly ranking, not some up to date projection or anything. They have Ilyasova jumping 11 spots, a couple good games and Rose is number one next week, then what will you say?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I dont think its weekly, more like how they are playing up to this point, but Rose being number 1 isn't going to be surprising, though I doubt it, Lopez has been the most consistent player out of that draft.


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> something to consider........he's still not 100 percent and is still complaining about pain in his ankle......


I do consider that, but I just don't see Rose having the mindset to be this dominating scorer that people expect him to be. He can put up 20 a game, but so did Gary Payton and I wouldn't consider Gary Payton a dominant scorer either. Gary Paytons best teams were when he had Shawn Kemp in his Prime, and other shooters around. Former All Star Detleph Shremph. Hersey Hawkins, Sam Perkins, Nate Mcmillan. Rose needs some guys who can score and shoot around him, also some defenders. I see Rose having a Gary Payton type of career, but I don't think he'll be as good of a defender as Gary Payton, but I think Rose has it in him to be a good defender at the point guard position. He's a point guard. He's not a combo guard, like alot of these players today. He's a real point guard. If he's your best scorer than your team is going to be in trouble. Just like Seattle was in trouble when they traded away Kemp and Gary Payton was their best scorer.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

HB said:


> I dont think its weekly, more like how they are playing up to this point, but Rose being number 1 isn't going to be surprising, though I doubt it, Lopez has been the most consistent player out of that draft.


Consistant at what? Losing? Numbers are nice, but they've got to be taken with a grain of salt if your team has one two games in their first twenty.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

ScottVdub said:


> I do consider that, but I just don't see Rose having the mindset to be this dominating scorer that people expect him to be. He can put up 20 a game, but so did Gary Payton and I wouldn't consider Gary Payton a dominant scorer either. Gary Paytons best teams were when he had Shawn Kemp in his Prime, and other shooters around. Former All Star Detleph Shremph. Hersey Hawkins, Sam Perkins, Nate Mcmillan. Rose needs some guys who can score and shoot around him, also some defenders. I see Rose having a Gary Payton type of career, but I don't think he'll be as good of a defender as Gary Payton, but I think Rose has it in him to be a good defender at the point guard position. He's a point guard. He's not a combo guard, like alot of these players today. He's a real point guard. If he's your best scorer than your team is going to be in trouble. Just like Seattle was in trouble when they traded away Kemp and Gary Payton was their best scorer.


I don't disagree with any of that. I do think rose can be the bst player on a championship level team though. He's just that physically talented, compared to his peers.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> This is what happens when you want to get a coach fired.


You don't know derrick rose that well. He probably hates losing more than anyone in the league, not named Kobe. He has too much pride to tank it.......

trust me....eve if he hated vinny del *****....he hates losing that much more. He's the rare breed of NBA player today that cares only about winning.....


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

VanillaPrice said:


> Consistant at what? Losing? Numbers are nice, but they've got to be taken with a grain of salt if your team has one two games in their first twenty.


This is one of the silliest arguments on this board and it comes up ever so often. Yes, on a bad team, being the best player you probably get more touches, but its also a curse because opposing teams are out to stop the best offensive player. The guy that put up the list (David Thorpe) explains that Lopez is still able to put up those numbers DESPITE being the only legit offensive player on the Nets, taking into account that for a good part of the seasonn, Harris was out. Lopez is the reason why CDR's having those open forays to the hoop. Same goes for Lee and pretty much every perimeter player on the Nets. You guys act like defenders treat him any different because the Nets suck. That guy gets doubled just as much as any legit post presence. He's 21, his team is 2 and 19, yet he's out there busting his *** everyday. He hasnt given up on the team, shouldn't that be praise worthy? Was anyone questioning Durant's numbers last year on a lottery Thunder team? Heck I remember you being one of his biggest supporters on this board. Lets not try and ridicule Brook's development because he is on a bad team. The guy's legit.

*Read this article*


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

The Krakken said:


> You don't know derrick rose that well. He probably hates losing more than anyone in the league, not named Kobe. He has too much pride to tank it.......
> 
> trust me....eve if he hated vinny del *****....he hates losing that much more. He's the rare breed of NBA player today that cares only about winning.....


You're right. I have never met nor do I know anyone who has ever met Derrick rose. Still, to stink this badly isn't about execution, it's about effort. Del ***** will be fired this season because the team doesn't want to play for him including rose.


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> I don't disagree with any of that. I do think rose can be the bst player on a championship level team though. He's just that physically talented, compared to his peers.


I agree with that. Chris Paul can also be the best player on a championship team too. But he also needs another guy who can be a dominant scorer. David West isn't him, and since Stojakovich has started his decline, so has the team. They just don't have anyone other than Paul to rely on. The Bulls don't have anyone to rely on. both teams have some good players, but not guys you can lean on.


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## eddymac (Jun 23, 2005)

Rose may still be affected by the ankle, but he is starting to show signs of life again he has ha two really good games back to back. Besides its early he will be fine.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

about 17 and 6 on 46% shooting for Rose over the last month... it isn't like he's totally regressed or anything - I think, like most #1 picks, Rose will struggle to live up to the lofty expectations people have for him. Rome wasn't built in a day.


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## moss_is_1 (Jun 14, 2004)

Derrick Rose is effing my fantasy team. I traded Rondo for him, at least I got Brandon Jennings with him as a throw-in.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

I think the front office underestimated the effect that Ben Gordon leaving would have. Rose is a very good point guard, but there's no go-to scorer on the Bulls roster anymore, Deng's a nice all-around player, and Salmons, Noah, and Hinrich are decent supporting players, but you don't have anyone on the roster to really stretch the floor or feed the ball to when you need points. Granted, Gordon essentially ONLY brought scoring to the table, but he was an offensive threat that Chicago simply doesn't have right now. Now, if the Bulls can use the money they saved by letting Gordon go to sign Joe Johnson, then all's well in the Windy City. For now, at least, letting Gordon leave is coming back to hurt the Bulls.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

It's only one season in, they weren't expecting to contend or anything, I don't understand why we're even judging a team in the middle of rebuilding. They'll have money, they have a potential all-star on the upswing, a decent supporting cast. What they need is interior players on both sides of the court and another scorer.

I would've let Gordon go to because he can score, but he's streaky and he's too small, you're not going to win anything with that small backcourt they would've had.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Dre™ said:


> It's only one season in, they weren't expecting to contend or anything, I don't understand why we're even judging a team in the middle of rebuilding. They'll have money, they have a potential all-star on the upswing, a decent supporting cast. What they need is interior players on both sides of the court and another scorer.
> 
> I would've let Gordon go to because he can score, but he's streaky and he's too small, you're not going to win anything with that small backcourt they would've had.


If they replace Ben Gordon with another legitimate perimeter threat soonish, such as the rumored Johson signing, then letting Gordon go was the right move long-term. However, if the idea was to replace Gordon with Salmons and improve this year then the front office made a mistake, for this season at least.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

There was no plan for this year. They're looking firmly towards the offseason as their first real shot to get better. This team is still rebuilding, they knew letting go of their best scorer would stagnate them at best.


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## moss_is_1 (Jun 14, 2004)

They need a post player badly. I would consider them giving us Noah and some other pieces for Big Al.


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

Derrick Rose is the most passive "franchise" player I've ever seen in my life. Too often he's content with passing the ball the top of the key and then not be a part of the offense for the whole possession, he needs to get more aggressive and start creating shots for others through his aggressiveness. I also am not happy with his habit of throwing up those floaters almost every time he goes into the lane, he needs to use his hops and draw the foul, not quickly throw it up like that, He missed a game winning shot because of it, and his shooting mechanics are pretty ugly once it gets out to 3 point range. I never realized how bad his jumpshot was from the perimeter until this season, he seems to lack the range, his mechanics change when hes shooting from the 3, it's not a strength problem, it's gotta be a mechanical problem, his release point seems different every time, But that being said, he is super super talented, I still think he can be a superstar in this league. He can be a better version of Chauncy Billups, he definitley has the demeanour of billups except hes more athletic but has a worse jumpshot. Good thing for Rose is Billups wasn't always a dead eye shooter when he entered the league, and he can practice. I really want to see what Rose could do if he was a ball hog...he's one of the players that you want him to be a ballhog......

In other news, Luol Deng is so overrated. In my opinion he's a poor man's shareef abdur-rahim, I can't believe that the bulls gm wouldn't trade him for Kobe Bryant...to the poster that said the bulls had a "plan", they have no such plan, they ruined their chances when they had all those trading chips, they have every opportunity to land a franchise player in KG or Kobe or even Paul Gasol, and they didn't land them because they were never serious about getting any of them ..Their management is horrible, this bulls team is a mess with Rose and Noah being the only bright spot. They're probably losing Tyrus Thomas for nothing, they missed their chance to get anything of value for kirk hinrich, John Salmons is ok, They need a coaching change and new management all around..


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## moss_is_1 (Jun 14, 2004)

Tyrus Thomas blows dude. Deng is average, but can't shoot. They need a post player and a shooter. They have capspace to sign a free agent like Bosh don't they? Then make some minor trades like Salmons for a shooter...


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## game11523 (Apr 19, 2009)

moss_is_1 said:


> Tyrus Thomas blows dude. *Deng is average, but can't shoot*. They need a post player and a shooter. They have capspace to sign a free agent like Bosh don't they? Then make some minor trades like Salmons for a shooter...


 
Loul Deng Fg .453 3pt .450 ft	.806


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Ugh, he's probably going to have a great game tomorrow.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm trying to figure what's been desperately need longer, the Bulls an interior scorer or the Mavericks an interior defender?


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

moss_is_1 said:


> Tyrus Thomas blows dude. *Deng is average, but can't shoot. *They need a post player and a shooter. They have capspace to sign a free agent like Bosh don't they? Then make some minor trades like Salmons for a shooter...


Luol Deng is one of the best mid-range jump shooters you'll find at the SF position...


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## Smez86 (Jun 29, 2006)

Yeah, Deng is good on D, good at rebounding, and has a good jumpshot. The problem is he can't create his own shot and isn't spectacular at any one thing.

Rose, on the other hand, has shown that he can be spectacular at a lot of things...when he wants to.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> There was no plan for this year. They're looking firmly towards the offseason as their first real shot to get better. This team is still rebuilding, *they knew letting go of their best scorer would stagnate them at best*.


Maybe so, but the Bulls fan base sure didn't believe that


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Dornado said:


> Luol Deng is one of the best mid-range jump shooters you'll find at the SF position...


:beheader: <-- moss_is_1


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

The only thing wrong with Deng is that the expectations for him were so high, and he's now more than a little overpaid. He's a very good player, but for a time it seemed that he was going to become a lot more than that and now he's being judged against that expectation rather than reality.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

Marcus13 said:


> Maybe so, but the Bulls fan base sure didn't believe that


I think most Bulls fans in this forum did expect the Bulls to be struggling offensively with Gordon's departure. My prediction before the season starts was that the Bulls will struggle offensively early in the season due to not used to playing without Gordon. however, my other opinion was that Gordon's departure might also mean positive impact on the development of other players; the players will be forced into a situation where they have to quickly develop their offensive game. I knew that this doesn't mean the Bulls will all of a sudden becomes an even better team. If the player development goes well (which hasn't been the case) the Bulls remains a playoff team. Better than last year? only my super bias mind believed that ... but of course that was without knowing yet what the current Bulls player is capable of with increased role.

About the player development due to Gordon's departure, it's not turning out like the way I envisioned. Some players do get better with the increased responsibility (Deng and Noah). But most haven't been able hold it down due to unfortunate injury (Rose and Thomas) or just simply incapable (Salmons, Hinrich, Miller and Pargo). Rose is recovering from his injury and have been improving every week; he's now really close to where he was last year. Other than Rose, Deng and Noah, it's really been a surprising disappointment. Miller is declining faster than I thought. I thought Salmons can handle the extra pressure looking at how he played last year and I still can't believe that Hinrich is at the twilight of his career this early.

But, yes, it was also obvious that the Bulls were already looking beyond this season since the off-season. I think one of the reason why the Bulls didn't bring in an appropriate replacement for Gordon was because they want to see what they really have in this team, so they can make informed decision. Who's worth the keep, who's not. Rose and Noah are definitely on the keep list. Deng is available for the right offer. The rest are widely available.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Yesterday's game was a good example of how Rose' midrange J has developed. He wasn't afraid to take those shots.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Marcus13 said:


> Maybe so, but the Bulls fan base sure didn't believe that


I don't know why not. 

Rose was just drafted *last year*, I don't know why people are expecting so much from a roster that only has 3 players guaranteed to be there for the long haul.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

Deng isnt an amazing jump shooter but he has a knack for always being open thats why he makes so many jump shots
He just has a talent for being at the right spot at the right time


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Derrick Rose averaged 20 and 6 in December... just throwing that out there....


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

The kid is the real deal. He is going to continue to improve and improve.

Still annoyed the Heat didn't get him. We got stuck with Beasley


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

I doubt that the Wade-Rose pairing would've done anything significant. When's the last time you heard of two slashers in the backcourt with questionable jumpshots winning a title together? The closest to it was SA, but Manu has a very good jumper, he came off the bench, and they had the best PF of all time. 

Even if Beasley never gets any better, he's a better fit. Wade and Rose's games are too similar


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Rose > Beasley though

Beasley is a horrible defender. horrible.

and if the Heat had the #1 pick, that's who they were going to take. We wanted Rose, not beasley


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

ChrisRichards said:


> Rose > Beasley though
> 
> Beasley is a horrible defender. horrible.
> 
> and if the Heat had the #1 pick, that's who they were going to take. We wanted Rose, not beasley


So what? Basketball isn't about having the best players, it's about having the best team. Wade's shot has improved, but he'd have to really become an ace before he and Rose could really work. And even then, they'd need a great third wheel.

If they should've gotten anybody, it would be Lopez, although that's easier to say now than it was then.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

Dont worry...Beasley is going to be pretty good in the long run as well.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Geaux Tigers said:


> Dont worry...Beasley is going to be pretty good in the long run as well.


Maybe so, but he's not ever going to live up to his initial hype, and he's proven that he's not much of a powerforward. That normally wouldn't have been that big of a deal but the Heat drafted him so Wade/Mike could have a nice inside/outside game. He's just another scorer at this point.


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## fuzznuts (May 23, 2006)

lol at the guy on page one that said Rose has terrible court vision


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> Maybe so, but he's not ever going to live up to his initial hype, and he's proven that he's not much of a powerforward. That normally wouldn't have been that big of a deal but the Heat drafted him so Wade/Mike could have a nice inside/outside game. He's just another scorer at this point.


Whenever I watch him I see the makings of a classic 22ppg guy who needs a ton of shots to get even that. And then there's no other redeeming quality in his game. I'm beginning to think he can definitely get away with playing 3, but like you said the Heat must be kind of disappointed. They thought they were getting a baby Amare and they ended up with Corey Maggette.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Sliccat said:


> I doubt that the Wade-Rose pairing would've done anything significant. When's the last time you heard of two slashers in the backcourt with questionable jumpshots winning a title together? The closest to it was SA, but Manu has a very good jumper, he came off the bench, and they had the best PF of all time.
> 
> Even if Beasley never gets any better, he's a better fit. Wade and Rose's games are too similar


Jordan and Pippen? Even if you want to argue Jordan was a deadeye shooter I would rather have Rose at my PG than Beasley as my SF regardless of who is in the backcourt with Rose. That's like arguing you take Bogut over Paul because you have Ford.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Jordan and Pippen? Even if you want to argue Jordan was a deadeye shooter I would rather have Rose at my PG than Beasley as my SF regardless of who is in the backcourt with Rose. That's like arguing you take Bogut over Paul because you have Ford.


"Even if you want to argue"? That's like saying "Even if you want to argue" the Pope is a Catholic... "even if you want to argue" the Mississippi is a river....


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Dre™ said:


> Whenever I watch him I see the makings of a classic 22ppg guy who needs a ton of shots to get even that. And then there's no other redeeming quality in his game. I'm beginning to think he can definitely get away with playing 3, but like you said the Heat must be kind of disappointed. They thought they were getting a baby Amare and they ended up with Corey Maggette.


Pretty much, I'd be annoyed if I was a Heat fan at this point to say the least.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Wow, this is really a terrible post.


Jamel Irief said:


> Jordan and Pippen? Even if you want to argue Jordan was a deadeye shooter





> When's the last time you heard of two slashers in the *backcourt *with *questionable jumpshots* winning a title together?


So, in other words, Jordan and Pippen have absolutely no bearing on what I said. Great.



> That's like arguing you take Bogut over Paul because you have Ford.


This creates two false analogies: the first being that Bogut/Beasley and Paul/Rose have any equivalency. Rose has yet to show anywhere near Chris Paul's skill level. If he ever does, then I suppose that would be more apt, but in all likely hood, Beasley will also end up a better player, especially offensively, than Bogut. Also, the idea that having Ford is in any way similar to having Wade is absolutely ridiculous. I understand trying to use a real-life example, but this is a pretty terrible one.

Still, when you have no facts to back up your point, I suppose some stretching is necessary.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Sliccat said:


> Wow, this is really a terrible post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Except Pippen was the Bulls point guard and Jordan played the post, so I meant to say Pippen and Harper.



> This creates two false analogies: the first being that Bogut/Beasley and Paul/Rose have any equivalency. Rose has yet to show anywhere near Chris Paul's skill level. If he ever does, then I suppose that would be more apt, but in all likely hood, Beasley will also end up a better player, especially offensively, than Bogut. Also, the idea that having Ford is in any way similar to having Wade is absolutely ridiculous. I understand trying to use a real-life example, but this is a pretty terrible one.


Nope, my point was you are drafting on need instead of taking the far superior player. I wasn't comparing Beasley to Bogut or Rose to Wade. Sorry you misunderstood.

I think if Riley got a phone call and the Bulls wanted Beasley for Rose he would take it in a second. But hey, if you disagree maybe there is no point in continuing this conversation.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

Id take Beasley over Rose if not for the Rehab/emotional issues with Beasley but just basketball player wise, Id take Beasley

Rose was pretty impressive in the playoffs last year and he plays a position thats more important than Beasleys but other than that he hasnt really done much more than Beasley (ok, he won ROY because the Bulls kept him on the court at all costs)


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

fjkdsi said:


> Id take Beasley over Rose if not for the Rehab/emotional issues with Beasley but just basketball player wise, Id take Beasley
> 
> Rose was pretty impressive in the playoffs last year and he plays a position thats more important than Beasleys but other than that he hasnt really done much more than Beasley (ok, he won ROY because the Bulls kept him on the court at all costs)


So... What you're saying is that you've clearly never seen either of them play. Rose is so much better then Beasely at this point it's almost comical.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

fjkdsi said:


> Id take Beasley over Rose if not for the Rehab/emotional issues with Beasley but just basketball player wise, Id take Beasley
> 
> Rose was pretty impressive in the playoffs last year and he plays a position thats more important than Beasleys but other than that he hasnt really done much more than Beasley (ok, he won ROY because the Bulls kept him on the court at all costs)


wut?


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## Wayne (May 24, 2006)

VanillaPrice said:


> So... What you're saying is that you've clearly never seen either of them play. Rose is so much better then Beasely at this point it's almost comical.


lolwut I agree that Rose is a great player but to say he is miles above Beasley is a true comical statement. Have you seen Beasley play this year? He is undoubtedly the second best player on that Heat squad and he can score in all sorts of different ways. This past month he's been killing it and holding down the fort when Wade's resting or shooting poorly.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I think Beasley is going to be a nice player in this league... I really liked his game in college... my hope is that Rose is just a level above him... maybe if not in terms of skill or talent, but competitiveness - I guess we'll find out, but I'm leaning that way.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

> Except Pippen was the Bulls point guard and Jordan played the post, so I meant to say Pippen and Harper.


Even as a point forward, Pippen was never actually a backcourt mate of Jordan's and Harper wasn't a slasher at that stage of his career, and wasn't on the skill level to even merit a mention in this argument.



> Nope, my point was you are drafting on need instead of taking the far superior player. I wasn't comparing Beasley to Bogut or Rose to Wade. Sorry you misunderstood.


Projection. My statement was obviously in regards to the method with which you made your argument. You set up your point with a false comparison (that's what the word "like" does when used that way, fyi). Remove the justification for your point and you don't have one, although I'm sure you're used to that.


> I think if Riley got a phone call and the Bulls wanted Beasley for Rose he would take it in a second. But hey, if you disagree maybe there is no point in continuing this conversation.


Of course he would, all you would have had to do was follow that draft to figure that out. I would also take Rose. However, I'd take him so that I would have a better trade piece, not so that I could commit to him. My original statement, which you conveniently forgot when responding to it, was that Beasley is a better fit with Wade, and that a Wade-Rose pairing would not make the teams significantly better.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Wayne said:


> lolwut I agree that Rose is a great player but to say he is miles above Beasley is a true comical statement. Have you seen Beasley play this year? He is undoubtedly the second best player on that Heat squad and he can score in all sorts of different ways. This past month he's been killing it and holding down the fort when Wade's resting or shooting poorly.


Beasely does one thing at an above average level. And that is score the basketball. Rose also does this (hell, he's even better at it) while being above average at other things (passing, leading the team, clutch play, ect.) Oh, and Jason Thompson is the second best player on the Kings, does that make him better than Rose too? Didn't think so.

One more thing, maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't exactly call it "killing it" when you're a powerforward who shoots 45% from the floor, but that's just me.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

In other Rose news, he just dropped 30/6/7 on good percentages in an upset over Orlando. Where are the haters now?


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

He turned 21 two monts ago, let's not forget that. Few players, especially point guards are coming into this league and taking it by storm right from the beginning.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

VanillaPrice said:


> In other Rose news, he just dropped 30/6/7 on good percentages in an upset over Orlando. Where are the haters now?


Really? That one game proves your point? GTFOH


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Sliccat said:


> Really? That one game proves your point? GTFOH


It's a thread about Derrick Rose, so I posted a good game by him that coincidentally happened that day. That one game doesn't single handidly prove my argument, but it, along with every other game he's played over the last month or so does.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Sliccat said:


> Even as a point forward, Pippen was never actually a backcourt mate of Jordan's and Harper wasn't a slasher at that stage of his career, and wasn't on the skill level to even merit a mention in this argument.
> 
> 
> > Ok, so you didn't watch those Bulls teams. Pippen not only was the point guard, he frequently matched up with them as well on defense. So he was a point guard on both sides of the ball. Check the 98 finals, Pippen on Stockton, Harper on Horny and Jordan on Russell. Hell as late as 02-03 Pippen was a point when they benched Stoudamire. There is no way you can argue that Pippen wasn't a backcourt player offensively in the entire Phil Jackson era. Why do you think Krause never seeked another point guard after leaving BJ Armstrong unprotected in the expansion draft? Hell why leave Bj unprotected in the first place? Didn't that leave them without guards?
> ...


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## JordanRoseDaBulls (May 27, 2008)

Sliccat said:


> Really? That one game proves your point? GTFOH


He's been pretty good for the last 5 weeks if you havent noticed. Pretty good with pretty much nothing around him as well. I like Noah alot and want to keep him longterm but he is still not a great offensive threat. Del ***** sucks as a coach, and Rose was injured for awhile.

But, he has still turned it up a notch for an extended period of time right now. Oh and he just turned 21 a couple months ago.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Im not gonna say Rose isnt better than Beasley right now, nor that Beasley will ever be better - its hard to compare 2 guys who are vastly different players...but are you guys really comparing him to Corey Maggette? 

Beasley's month of December was 17.3ppg, 6.6rpg, 1.2apg, 48% FG in 32.4mpg.

He's a 20 year old PF/SF...give him time, there arent many 20 year olds putting up those numbers on a winning team as a 2nd/3rd option. In his last three games, he's had two 20 point halves. He flat out embarassed Josh Smith yesterday.

He has a tight leash also, and a steady vet who from time to time takes away those PF minutes...but when he puts it all together he's gonna be a 20/10 player. No doubt in my mind. He has some flaws in his game he needs to fix (defense, consistent rebounding, some shot selection, developing more back to the basket moves) - but as a face-up forward he really looks like a hybrid of Dirk and Melo at times. Just young and needs experience, just as Dirk and Garnett and Amare needed.

As far as I see it, Bulls got the right piece on Rose and we got the right piece in Beasley. Funny thing is, going into that draft Bulls NEEDED a scoring PF and the Heat needed a PG...shows that needs and best fit go out the window and you can make it work with what you want.


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## moss_is_1 (Jun 14, 2004)

I like Rose more but he's been a guy that I wanted on the Twolves before he even went to Memphis. Beasley has impressed me some, but I see Derrick Coleman in him....


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

20 points 5.9 assists and 3.9 rebounds per game for Rose this year... 48% from the field.

With just a few games left, not a bad sophomore campaign.


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## Vuchato (Jan 14, 2006)

Dornado said:


> 20 points 5.9 assists and 3.9 rebounds per game for Rose this year... 48% from the field.
> 
> With just a few games left, not a bad sophomore campaign.


he's not scoring very efficiently though


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Vuchato said:


> he's not scoring very efficiently though


Of the 14 players that score more per game, only 4 have a higher FG% (Zach Randolph, Chris Bosh, Amare Staudemire and Lebron James).


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Dornado said:


> Of the 14 players that score more per game, only 4 have a higher FG% (Zach Randolph, Chris Bosh, Amare Staudemire and Lebron James).


Just to add more stats:

PER-wise, he's also the 8th best PG with a rating of 18.37 and 44th overall. Interesting to see Rondo, Gilbert Arenas, Andre Miller, and Billups with higher ratings.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Vuchato said:


> he's not scoring very efficiently though


Derrick Rose is extremely efficient.

Of the 4 guys mentioned by Dornado, 3 are big men and the other is Lebron James...


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

briaN37 said:


> Derrick Rose is extremely efficient.
> 
> Of the 4 guys mentioned by Dornado, 3 are big men and the other is Lebron James...


He isn't "extremely efficient". Right now he is a 21-year old who is carrying the expectations of an entire basketball city and is expected to play like an All-Star every single night. He is getting better and should be very efficient soon, right now he is fairly efficient with the tendency that he is clearly improving.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Maybe I'm nitpicking but I thought he'd be the type to average more than 6 assists a game, maybe his courtvision isn't where I thought it was. 

The Bulls will have the money so hopefully they can get Amare and Bosh, that would put him in the pocket.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> Maybe I'm nitpicking but I thought he'd be the type to average more than 6 assists a game, maybe his courtvision isn't where I thought it was.
> 
> The Bulls will have the money so hopefully they can get Amare and Bosh, that would put him in the pocket.


The lack of assists is due to the lack of players that can put the ball in the basket. Aside from deng most of the scorers of the team (if you can call them that) are players who score after a dribble or two (i.e. hinrich, flip murray, pargo), their best big man is noah who realy isn't much of an offensive player, and when salmons was on the team he was poor at spotting up. he was another guy who needed to dribble. I think him averaging 6 assists on that team with a crappy offensive system is remarkable.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

O2K said:


> The lack of assists is due to the lack of players that can put the ball in the basket. Aside from deng most of the scorers of the team (if you can call them that) are players who score after a dribble or two (i.e. hinrich, flip murray, pargo), their best big man is noah who realy isn't much of an offensive player, and when salmons was on the team he was poor at spotting up. he was another guy who needed to dribble. I think him averaging 6 assists on that team with a crappy offensive system is remarkable.


Doesn't work that way. Andre Miller got 10 assists per game with the Cavs when his best option to pass to was Lamond Murray.

He's getting 6 assists per game because he isn't an elite playemaker, not because of his teammates.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Rose isn't a great playmaker, but he is a great scorer. I don't think you're going to change the first part of that and it'd be foolish to try to stop him from attacking as well. You simply have to exploit the things he does well.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

R-Star said:


> Doesn't work that way. Andre Miller got 10 assists per game with the Cavs when his best option to pass to was Lamond Murray.
> 
> He's getting 6 assists per game because he isn't an elite playemaker, not because of his teammates.


I agree. Noah, Gibson are both excellent finishers around the rim. Hinrich is streaky but definitely a capable shooter when he's open. Flip murray has always been a good scorer whether it be shooting off dribble or spotting up. It's not the most potent offensive team but these are capable players here. It's not like he's playing with Ira Newble or Eric Snow.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Doesn't work that way. Andre Miller got 10 assists per game with the Cavs when his best option to pass to was Lamond Murray.
> 
> He's getting 6 assists per game because he isn't an elite playemaker, not because of his teammates.


I think it is a little bit of both... I think it is true that Rose isn't a playmaker in the Chris Paul/Steve Nash mold... but I also think his assist numbers would be higher with some better offensive options available to him.... unfortunately Lamond Murray and Wesley Person still shot a better percentage than Kirk Hinrich and Luol Deng, respectively. Rose is also asked to carry a pretty decent scoring load.

I could see Rose up around 8 dimes a game if the Bulls general offensive situation improves.


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## Vuchato (Jan 14, 2006)

Dornado said:


> Of the 14 players that score more per game, only 4 have a higher FG% (Zach Randolph, Chris Bosh, Amare Staudemire and Lebron James).


His true shooting percentage is 35th among point guards.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Vuchato said:


> His true shooting percentage is 35th among point guards.


If you count guys like Daniel Gibson, Sergio Rodriguez, Luke Ridnour, Goran Dragic, Jason Williams, Jordan Farmar and others who don't play nearly the same amount of minutes and are asked to play drastically different roles in their respective offenses.... 


Right now our all TS% all-star team would be 

PG - Boobie Gibson
SG - Bill Walker
SF - Nicholas Batum
PF - Nick Collison
C - Greg Oden (or Dampier if you wanted someone who was actually playing)

So I don't know how much that tells us... I guess you could conclude that those are the most efficient scorers in the NBA... seems to me taking the context of those numbers into consideration would be important.

Rose doesn't get to the line as much as he should, and he doesn't shoot the three well... those drag his TS% down... I still wouldn't categorize him as inefficient.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I like how Rose picks his spots. He may not be the purest of point guards, but he does run the offense and get people involved. But then he is good at sensing when to be aggressive and attack. I like the kid.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Rose is not a finished product. He is working on his 3 pt shot. He also needs to work on his D. If both quickly improve he will be something to behold.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I'm a little disapointed. I expected him to go up a notch this season, and he seems to have only gone up a half notch. Maybe year 3 is when we'll see the most improvement? Right now I can't put him in the Chris Paul - Deron Williams class. He's in the Rajon Rondo class right now I think. 

Will be interesting to see how he does in the playoffs if the Bulls make it. The Cavs don't defend quick point guards that well, so if he forces the issue he could really make himself look good.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

He's never going to be the passer that Paul or Williams are, but nobody thought that he was going to be when he entered the league anyway. What makes Derrick special is his knack for scoring the basketball and his physical gifts coupled with his good not great passing ability. He's still going to get 8 or so a game during his prime years, he's just not going to be dishing out record breaking assist numbers every year.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

He reminds me of a steve francis without the range and the headcase issues


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

O2K said:


> He reminds me of a steve francis without the range and the headcase issues


Dude... I was going to past the exact same thing until I read your post at the very end. lol

He does remind me a lot of Francis. His numbers and statistics are very similar. Also their style of play is very similar as well. Not a pure PG, but a SG/PG mix who is capable of making the pass, but not great enough to distribute the offense. More of a score first with the ability to finish around the rim.


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