# Uhhmm, Cultural Miasma?



## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Gee, what a way to describe the so-called "entrapment" within Portland and on that former Blazers team. 

Heh, I even had to look up the definition to the term, "miasma" _(a) A noxious atmosphere or influence. (b) A poisonous atmosphere formerly thought to rise from swamps and putrid matter and cause disease._

.....upon reading this little piece: 



> The Spurs-Kings series has been an entirely different animal. That animal’s name: Bonzi Wells. He was considered a promising part of the future for the Portland Trail Blazers before he got himself stuck in the cultural miasma that entrapped just about everyone on the team. This is his return to glory – in a contract year, of course.


http://www.betus.com/sports-betting/Spurs_Cavs_hit_the_road-2229.asp


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

ABM said:


> Gee, what a way to describe the so-called "entrapment" within Portland and on that former Blazers team.
> 
> Heh, I even had to look up the definition to the term, "miasma" _(a) A noxious atmosphere or influence. (b) A poisonous atmosphere formerly thought to rise from swamps and putrid matter and cause disease._
> 
> ...


those who don't know the situation, will always blame the wrong people.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

after they pay him the big bucks (they lost lol thanks to bonzi) he will go back to his ole ways its clear as day, if they get rid of adelman then they will see it sooner.

I HATE THE KINGS SO I AM GLAD THEY LOST!


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Utherhimo said:


> after they pay him the big bucks (they lost lol thanks to bonzi) he will go back to his ole ways its clear as day, if they get rid of adelman then they will see it sooner.
> 
> I HATE THE KINGS SO I AM GLAD THEY LOST!


they lost thanks to Bonzi? Just for bleeps and giggles, how do you figure? 

IMO BW was a big part of why the Kings were competitive in that series. That they had little interior D was probably their biggest undoing, and in general Brad Miller was subpar following a disappointing year. The Kings really need some shotblocking.

STOMP


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

SMiLE said:


> those who don't know the situation, will always blame the wrong people.


The miasma is not a person.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Backboard Cam said:


> The miasma is not a person.


im talking about the article blaming the situation here on bonzi's rep, and not bonzi himself being responsible for himself.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Both the environment and the person are responsible, in many cases. It's entirely possible that Wells' attitude could have developed in another way in a different environment. When he first joined the Blazers, he seemed like a nice, smiling young kid...he didn't seem like a sullen malcontent.


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## mgb (Jun 26, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Both the environment and the person are responsible, in many cases. It's entirely possible that Wells' attitude could have developed in another way in a different environment. When he first joined the Blazers, he seemed like a nice, smiling young kid...he didn't seem like a sullen malcontent.


Ya, Bonzi is a follower it's just to bad some of the players that were around during the early part of his career. One in particular.


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> It's entirely possible that Wells' attitude could have developed in another way in a different environment. When he first joined the Blazers, he seemed like a nice, smiling young kid...he didn't seem like a sullen malcontent.


Interestingly...........



> For Wells, his mentor was Steve Smith, the classy veteran who took Wells under his wing when they were Portland Trail Blazers teammates in the late 1990s.
> 
> "It's the same exact scenario," Wells said. "I had just come into the league, bouncing and flying up and down the court. I tell Kevin (Martin) what Steve told me: 'Yeah, keep doing that, young fella. Keep doing it while you've got it.' "


From: SacBee


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

I think miasma is actually a pretty good term. It's impossible to point to a single player and claim that player was _the_ problem.

Was it Rider? Because he was gone and problems persisted. Damon? Maybe, although he had Quick fooled. Wallace? I find that unlikely, given how he's had so few problems in Detroit.

Wells? Maybe... he WAS documented as a ***** before coming to Portland and he's had problems since leaving the Blazers. But did Bonzi *cause* the situation? Considering it started before he got here and continued after it left, I'd say "no". Other clear "bad guys" like Trent and McInnis simply weren't around long enough to be considered the primary factors, either, IMO.

Players certainly were the primary factor. The media and fan expectations played a role and Whitsitt's inability to find and retain a coach capable of containing the players he acquired certainly factored in.

All in all, a miasma.

Ed O.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

It seems to me that every team has a knucklehead or two on the roster. The problem in Portland was that there were too many of them for there not to be major headaches. These guys tend to feed off of each other when it comes to bad behavior.


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

Well, let's see. Bonzi Wells was asked not to particpate in the high school all star game. He had troubles with his college coach. He had problems in Portland. The Memphis Grizzlies asked him to not even sit on the bench during last year's playoffs. He now says he wants to be a King for life. He said the same thing in Portland. He said the same thing in Memphis. I have not heard that Memphis has a "miasma". This looks like another version of the "Portland underachieved" article cited above. 
Maybe, just maybe, it is Bonzi Wells who is the miasma? When someone has trouble over and over it is usually not the environment. 
I have no doubt someone will sign Ruben Patterson next year and we will hear that it was Portland's fault that they gave up on him. So did 3 other teams, but it must be the "miasma" in Portland.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

crandc said:


> Well, let's see. Bonzi Wells was asked not to particpate in the high school all star game. He had troubles with his college coach. He had problems in Portland. The Memphis Grizzlies asked him to not even sit on the bench during last year's playoffs. He now says he wants to be a King for life. He said the same thing in Portland. He said the same thing in Memphis. I have not heard that Memphis has a "miasma". This looks like another version of the "Portland underachieved" article cited above.
> Maybe, just maybe, it is Bonzi Wells who is the miasma? When someone has trouble over and over it is usually not the environment.
> I have no doubt someone will sign Ruben Patterson next year and we will hear that it was Portland's fault that they gave up on him. So did 3 other teams, but it must be the "miasma" in Portland.


So explain why Portland's problem precede Bonzi Wells, if it was ONLY Bonzi.

And why Ruben Patterson had problems after Bonzi Wells, if it was ONLY Bonzi.

I'm fascinated to know how you think Bonzi's responsible for even a tenth of the perceived mess that Portland's been over the past decade or so.

Ed O.


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

Ed O said:


> So explain why Portland's problem precede Bonzi Wells, if it was ONLY Bonzi.
> 
> And why Ruben Patterson had problems after Bonzi Wells, if it was ONLY Bonzi.
> 
> ...


 I think crandc is trying to point out that it wasn't so much Bonzi getting caught up in a miasma here in Portland as much as it was just Bonzi being Bonzi and he would have had these problems here whether or not there was a so called "miasma" here.

Is that the point crandc?


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Ed O said:


> So explain why Portland's problem precede Bonzi Wells, if it was ONLY Bonzi.
> 
> And why Ruben Patterson had problems after Bonzi Wells, if it was ONLY Bonzi.
> 
> ...


I don't think she said that it was 'only' his fault....Just that he's a bonehead everywhere he's gone and its kinda stupid to stick up for knuckleheads constantly, just because the team isn't winning anymore it makes it look like you got a case of sour grapes and should move on instead reliving the past, which evidently is not here anymore...

Its like the girl who was a geek in high school, so she got a boob job and became a stripper and called up Jenny Jones and wanted to confront the boy who used to make fun of her...When really the guy who made fun of her forgot all about it years ago and really doesn't give a **** about the situation that once was....but the girl is clinging onto it, and clinging onto it....when she should really just let it go!

I think thats how a lot of the board feels about the Bonzi's, Rasheeds, Patterson and all the other knuckleheads...


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> Its like the girl who was a geek in high school, so she got a boob job and became a stripper and called up Jenny Jones and wanted to confront the boy who used to make fun of her...When really the guy who made fun of her forgot all about it years ago and really doesn't give a **** about the situation that once was....but the girl is clinging onto it, and clinging onto it....when she should really just let it go!


and to think, you got that boob job for nothing.









sorry man, you totally left yourself open for that one. 
I think it's more like the one who totally now expects the other person (the one who teased them) to be all "oh, can I be your friend!!?!" based on the new "boobs"...when person A: (the teaser) is just like "dude..you're still a goober" and person B: (the one who's teased) realizes that it's not the size of the boob that counts, but the quality of the boob that matters most....and that if she had just realized that and not wasted 25 grand on making herself "feel better" because of it and instead spent that on some kind of psychiatric help, she'd be much better off.


hehe, quality of the boob....that can mean so many things that I'll just let you all decipher that on your own.


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

Kiss_My_Darius said:


> I think crandc is trying to point out that it wasn't so much Bonzi getting caught up in a miasma here in Portland as much as it was just Bonzi being Bonzi and he would have had these problems here whether or not there was a so called "miasma" here.
> 
> Is that the point crandc?


Precisely, KMD. I am saying that in the case of Bonzi Wells, you have a guy who wore out his welcome on his high school team, his college team and two pro teams. So Wells' problems in Portland were not due to some weird miasma from the Willamette River.

P.S. I think the geeky girl should spend the money on getting a good education, she ends up a software exec and the jerk who teased her is probably working for minimum wage somewhere.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Generally speaking, young people are knuckleheads. Young people who've been fawned over by their peers and mentors for much of their teens, and are now making millions of dollars are not an exception to this knucklehead labeling by any means. Stupid behavior is to be expected and IMO is best worked with by coaching staffs/management. Portland's current players are the same sorts of guys that are found on rosters throughout the league, but we've a local press that pretends otherwise for it's stories. Geez they even demonized SAR. 

To me, the "culture miasma" is largely about the coverage the club recieves. The roster has been turned over but the tune hasn't changed. No one is arguing that Wells was a great guy in Portland. Heck I think he was a jerk just like a lot of past and current Blazers/NBA players, but I don't tune in to pro hoops because I think that the players are super people. I just want to see some good hoops. I wish Blazer management could put together the roster that they want without the constant fanning of the chicken little crapola by the *O* and the like, but that stuff is here to stay until the people tune them out. Since there seems to be a faction of fans who really enjoy that soap opera stuff, I doubt the tone of the coverage is going to change in the near future. I guess I'm just hoping who ever is in charge from here on tunes that stuff out and makes their decisions based on basketball reasons over addressing PR issues. 

STOMP


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

Stomp, while it is correct that suddenly throwing a ton of money at a young person can turn him/her into a "knucklehead", the fact is that not all NBA players (or other young athletes) act like jerks. I have not seen Martell Webster spit at an opponent. LeBron James has not, to my knowledge, flipped off a fan and then claimed a blackout. Dwyane Wade has not, to my knowledge, cursed a minimum wage store clerk who asked for an ID as his employer and the law requires for a customer buying beer. And yes it is true that the Snoregonian and idiots like the unimaginative talentless so called writers whose articles are cited here are devoted to saying nasty things about past and present Blazers (although past Blazers often become lionized once they leave Portland). But, Wells' behavior was not just a media invention. And after a certain amount of acts you just can't put them down to "young and stupid". IMO, I'll give someone a pass on one "young and stupid" act, but when a man is nearly 30, the father of two children, "young and stupid" doesn't fly any more.

And I agree that we don't watch hoops because the players are wonderful people but to see a good game. Still, it is easier to root for a player who is also a decent person. There is a reason why Brian Grant and Terry Porter were so popular in Portland. They were likable guys who were good ambassadors in the community. Is it really asking so much for someone to act with basic decency?

P.S. Have you jumped on the Sharks bandwagon yet?


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

crandc said:


> Stomp, while it is correct that suddenly throwing a ton of money at a young person can turn him/her into a "knucklehead"


I didn't claim that. I said most young people could probably be refered to as knuckleheads. Being a top athlete probably exaserbates this condition. From my experiences with top athletes/celebs, those that are decent when the cameras are off are the exception rather then the rule.



> the fact is that not all NBA players (or other young athletes) act like jerks. I have not seen Martell Webster spit at an opponent. LeBron James has not, to my knowledge, flipped off a fan and then claimed a blackout. Dwyane Wade has not, to my knowledge, cursed a minimum wage store clerk who asked for an ID as his employer and the law requires for a customer buying beer.


do you really think you've got an objective seat to judge the players? Over the years I've interacted with players/celebs, and competed against some on the basketball court. Many were anything but the smiling great guy they're projected to be. Heck, TV-land is once again trying to sell us that Kobe is a great guy. Bonzi/Martell/LaBron/whoever may be a great guy by some fans standards, or maybe they refuse an autograph or flip off some drunk hometown jerkoff who is cussing them from the stands and said fan holds a grudge for a decade. Heck we've seen Rasheed's portrait go from complete bleep in Portland to passionate teammate who does tons of charity work in Detroit, despite his claims that he's doing everything the same as ever. According to managements of both clubs, Wallace always did the charity work, but now he's being lauded for it... go figure. 

The facts are that we only catch glipses into the lives of these players. Much of the grey area is colored in by the local media. 



> But, Wells' behavior was not just a media invention. And after a certain amount of acts you just can't put them down to "young and stupid". IMO, I'll give someone a pass on one "young and stupid" act, but when a man is nearly 30, the father of two children, "young and stupid" doesn't fly any more.
> 
> And I agree that we don't watch hoops because the players are wonderful people but to see a good game. Still, it is easier to root for a player who is also a decent person. There is a reason why Brian Grant and Terry Porter were so popular in Portland. They were likable guys who were good ambassadors in the community. Is it really asking so much for someone to act with basic decency?


I wouldn't bestow great guy status on Brian Grant and think he's a perfect example of a celeb who plays the PR game. Dude hired a publisist to spoonfeed sportswriters tales of his charity work/appearances... IMO advertising your charitable deeds brings one's motivations into question. Brian always spoke of loving Portland, but as soon as he had the chance he opted out of his huge deal for more money (he had 4 years at 8M per left). No loyalty there.

you've trotted out the same stuff on Wells many times now, and I'm sure I understand why you don't like him. You think he's a jerk. It's my opinion that a good percentage of the guys in the league are jerks who I'd rather not get to know. Some are certainly better at being two faced when the camera is on, but they're still jerks. I just find it to be a waste of my time as a fan trying to continually sort out the good from the bad, especially when I just want to watch some good hoops. My heros are not basketball players.



> P.S. Have you jumped on the Sharks bandwagon yet?


heh... I waste enough time with this Bball stuff so I dont really even give hockey a chance. Okay, out the door for a while.

STOMP


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

The real "root cause" of the "miasma" (agreed that it is an appropriate term in this context) was, and still is, guaranteed player contracts. Therefore, the people who have inflicted them on us - the NBA front office and the NBA Players' Union - are at fault here. However, I don't see how Portland Trail Blazers' ownership and management can avoid indictment.

This explains why "it" (Portland's miasma), can't truly be pinned on any one player (or group thereof). It's systemic.

Also, don't overlook the sarcasm indicated by the "contract year" comment of the original quote.

PBF


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

I don't think that fans (Blazers fans in particular) are looking for great happy-go-lucky guys who off the court are 'sweethearts'...(although its not a bad thing either, but definitely rare).

I think the fans just don't want someone who embarasses the team, media's fault or not, a lot of the stuff that happened wasn't just some big alienation by the media...

I personally, and would presume a lot of other people feel the same way, could care less if a person is an *** or not as long as he doesn't disrupt the team or smear the teams perception for acting like a bone-head during in his personal life and atleast gives a damn about winning and hustles on the court...Besides that, I could care less what he does, even if he doesn't sign little Johnny's basketball card.

As for Brian Grant, I used to work out at Who Song And Larry's on MacAdam and nearly every week during the offseason when he was playing for the Lakers he would come in with his family and he was always the nicest guy...Always was cordial to everyone and never turned down an autograph or a photo and was very personable with the staff. His decision to opt out of his contract with Portland had more to do with the business of basketball than it does with his like or dislike or loyalty to the city...I doubt if he didn't like the city he wouldn't make his offseason home here...

I know for a fact that Grant smoked weed on his free time and same with Dale Davis...Did I care that the players were partaking in criminal activity (even though I'm not anti-weed as some people are)? No, because as long as he wasn't getting arrested or playing high and not giving his all, its not an issue.

Regarding Wallace and Wells, they both embarrassed the city...Sure they played hard, but when my relatives in St. Louis and Boston would call me and jab in how much of a joke my team the "jailblazers" are I know that its more than just the local media who is exploitating the situation to sell papers.

While I do watch basketball to watch basketball, it can be done the right way and teams like the Spurs have proven that.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> While I do watch basketball to watch basketball, it can be done the right way and teams like the Spurs have proven that.


So all management has to do is acquire the next Tim Duncan (aka Greg Oden) and put some nice pieces around him and voila! everyone is happy. Sounds good to me... chop chop... times a wasting!

My college team is the Demon Deacons. I lived in Winston-Salem for 5 years as a young kid and developed my Bball habit in the heart of the ACC. I know how good Timmy is, and would love to build the Blazers around someone with his abilities and makeup. Everything would be so simple. It would be like having pocket aces going into the turn in Texas holdem. But guys like TD are very few and far between. Failing to have a rock solid cornerstone like him to base everything around, a club has to take an alternative tact. I don't begrudge my rooting interest making the best of what they've got. 

Anyways... three cheers to Raja Bell and the Suns!

STOMP


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

ABM said:


> Gee, what a way to describe the so-called "entrapment" within Portland and on that former Blazers team.
> 
> Heh, I even had to look up the definition to the term, "miasma" _(a) A noxious atmosphere or influence. (b) A poisonous atmosphere formerly thought to rise from swamps and putrid matter and cause disease._
> 
> ...


Yeah, it's all Portland's fault.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Both the environment and the person are responsible, in many cases. It's entirely possible that Wells' attitude could have developed in another way in a different environment. When he first joined the Blazers, he seemed like a nice, smiling young kid...he didn't seem like a sullen malcontent.


That's how he seemed, but with Bonzi there's always been the jackhole lurking beneath. I remember the story when he was in a mall in college. 

A little girl comes up to him and says "Are you Bonzi Wells from Ball State?" 

Bonzi replies jokingly "No, that's not me."

The little girl says, "Good, because my daddy thinks he's a jerk."

I don't know if that story's true or not (it was related in a Canzano article a few years back), but Bonzi fell in the draft because he's a headcase. He was traded without ever playing with Detroit because he's a headcase. He was a headcase here, he was a head case in Memphis and he'll be a headcase wherever he signs his new deal.

It's a shame because he has the ability to be a great guy, but instead chooses to be a jerkoff.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

maxiep said:


> I remember the story when he was in a mall in college.
> 
> A little girl comes up to him and says "Are you Bonzi Wells from Ball State?"
> 
> ...


What an *******!

Oh, wait. Were you posting about Bonzi being a jerk, or Bonzi being criticized by little girls because their parents like to judge the personality of college kids?



> I don't know if that story's true or not (it was related in a Canzano article a few years back), but Bonzi fell in the draft because he's a headcase.


He fell all the way to #11, huh? Are you saying that he was a better prospect, ignoring any sort of personality flaws, than Paul Pierce?

Sounds like you're stretching more than a little bit there.

Ed O.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Ed O said:


> What an *******!
> 
> Oh, wait. Were you posting about Bonzi being a jerk, or Bonzi being criticized by little girls because their parents like to judge the personality of college kids?
> 
> ...


Gee Ed, I'm sorry someone peed in your cornflakes today. I would argue that someone who follows a team closely enough that their kids know their opinions probably has reason for doing so. When's the last time you've heard a college player vilified at a smaller program?

As for falling to #11, yes Bonzi's talent was rated very highly. Pierce fell because of character issues at Kansas as well. He's seemed to have overcome his demons. Bonzi's have gotten worse with time.

If you can't understand Bonzi is a well know a-hole, then you're beyond help. The data doesn't lie, and Bonzi has given enough data points to arm an entire franchise.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

maxiep said:


> That's how he seemed, but with Bonzi there's always been the jackhole lurking beneath. I remember the story when he was in a mall in college.
> 
> A little girl comes up to him and says "Are you Bonzi Wells from Ball State?"
> 
> ...


reading that made me think of the Kareem Abdul Jabar scene in Airplane... it's almost verbatum. 



> It's a shame because he has the ability to be a great guy, but instead chooses to be a jerkoff.


piggy backing on what Ed said on your story on him dropping in the draft to #11.... If memory doesn't fail me, Detroit traded him to Portland (for their 1999 #1) because they were clearing cap space to sign Stackhouse. Also, it was known prior to the draft that Wells had a stress fracture in his foot (suffered in the pre-draft?) which ended up costing him his most of his rookie season. A broken foot doesn't enhance a players draft status.

Looking back at the 99 draft, I don't think anyone selected below him can claim to have enjoyed a better career. The future 1st turned out to be Jumaine Jones. Great trade for Portland and crappy the way he left... I blame both him and the management (both of them). 

anyhoo... here's a fun little portal back to Bonzi's draft day
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketba/98draf/draf024.htm

STOMP


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

maxiep said:


> I remember the story when he was in a mall in college.
> 
> A little girl comes up to him and says "Are you Bonzi Wells from Ball State?"
> 
> ...





Ed O said:


> What an *******!
> 
> Oh, wait. Were you posting about Bonzi being a jerk, or Bonzi being criticized by little girls because their parents like to judge the personality of college kids?



Are you Ed O from bbb.net?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

maxiep said:


> I would argue that someone who follows a team closely enough that their kids know their opinions probably has reason for doing so.


I would argue that most people who hate athletes usually have pretty silly reasons for doing so.

And I would also argue that the character of parents who raise a daughter who engages a stranger in conversation just to insult them is probably pretty questionable.

So there's a lot wrong with your anecote, which is why it's not very compelling.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> I would argue that most people who hate athletes usually have pretty silly reasons for doing so.
> 
> And I would also argue that the character of parents who raise a daughter who engages a stranger in conversation just to insult them is probably pretty questionable.
> 
> So there's a lot wrong with your anecote, which is why it's not very compelling.


Thanks for your opinion Minstrel. Let's go through point by point.

First, hate is a strong word, so lets not use it, agreed? The girl didn't use it, so let's at least be accurate. For example, I dislike Kobe Bryant because I believe him to be selfish and a rapist. I don't hate him. I dislike Bonzi Wells because he has embarrassed the team I care about deeply and treated we the fans poorly. I don't hate him.

Second, she only added the comment to Bonzi after he said he wasn't him. She didn't go to insult him. Try reading a bit closer. You should be more careful than reading an isolated incident before deciding who is or isn't a good parent.

So there's a lot wrong with your post, which is why it's not very compelling.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

maxiep said:


> Second, she only added the comment to Bonzi after he said he wasn't him.


According to the (almost surely apocryphal) story, he said he wasn't him 'jokingly'. Thus her insult was gratuitous. Therefore her parents suck. 

barfo


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

barfo said:


> According to the (almost surely apocryphal) story, he said he wasn't him 'jokingly'. Thus her insult was gratuitous. Therefore her parents suck.
> 
> barfo


LOL! I like it! But I doubt a young girl picks up sarcasm. People really have their panties in a twist over this story i read in a Canzano column back when Bonzi was still with our team. Geez, if I wanted to talk about crap like this, I'd be back at O-Live.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

maxiep said:


> People really have their panties in a twist over this story i read in a Canzano column back when Bonzi was still with our team. Geez, if I wanted to talk about crap like this, I'd be back at O-Live.


If you didn't want to talk about crap like this, why did you bring it up? 

barfo

PS: I'm not wearing any panties!


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

barfo said:


> If you didn't want to talk about crap like this, why did you bring it up?
> 
> barfo
> 
> PS: I'm not wearing any panties!


Crazily enough, I wanted to talk about Bonzi Wells, but I guess some people just like to argue. I prefer to stick to the thread subject.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

maxiep said:


> Crazily enough, I wanted to talk about Bonzi Wells, but I guess some people just like to argue. I prefer to stick to the thread subject.


A fable Canzano once told regarding Bonzi is on-topic, but criticism of that fable is off-topic?

barfo


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

barfo said:


> A fable Canzano once told regarding Bonzi is on-topic, but criticism of that fable is off-topic?
> 
> barfo


Now you're getting it. See, one thing relates to the thread (which was about Bonzi) and the other doesn't (it relates to Canzano and the actions of parents). Catching on now sparky?

I know it's late at night, but if you're going to post, at least try doing so logically.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

maxiep said:


> Now you're getting it. See, one thing relates to the thread (which was about Bonzi) and the other doesn't (it relates to Canzano and the actions of parents). Catching on now sparky?
> 
> I know it's late at night, but if you're going to post, at least try doing so logically.


Actually your little fable has nothing to do with Bonzi. It has to do with how a little girl allegedly thought her dad viewed Bonzi.

It's a lame story to relate, even if it were true. Since you don't have a link, and even if you did it would just be coming from Canzano, it's worthless. That you would defend it and insult people in the process is ridiculous.

Nobody peed in my cornflakes. Your post was weak. Sorry.

Ed O.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

maxiep said:


> I know it's late at night, but if you're going to post, at least try doing so logically.


Thanks for the advice, I'll treasure it always.

barfo


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Actually your little fable has nothing to do with Bonzi. It has to do with how a little girl allegedly thought her dad viewed Bonzi.
> 
> It's a lame story to relate, even if it were true. Since you don't have a link, and even if you did it would just be coming from Canzano, it's worthless. That you would defend it and insult people in the process is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Aw Eddie, someone has some hurt feelings. You're the one that started with the personal attacks saying I was stretching the truth and God forbid I had the audacity to respond. Once again you choose to nitpick about some "lame" story I recall and miss the larger point that Bonzi always was and likely always will be a jackhole. 

Keep your eye on the ball next time.


----------



## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

barfo said:


> Thanks for the advice, I'll treasure it always.
> 
> barfo


I'm here to help.


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

maxiep said:


> Aw Eddie, someone has some hurt feelings. You're the one that started with the personal attacks saying I was stretching the truth and God forbid I had the audacity to respond. Once again you choose to nitpick about some "lame" story I recall and miss the larger point that Bonzi always was and likely always will be a jackhole.


If it's a minor point: don't make a fool of yourself bending over backwards trying to defend it.

As for Bonzi slipping on draft day: I'd love to see ANY evidence that's the case. I followed the draft very closely that year and Bonzi wasn't expected to go in the top 10. Pierce definitely slid on draft day, but Bonzi did not, whether he was a jerk or not.



> Keep your eye on the ball next time.


You're spewing so much crap it's unbelievable.

Ed O.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Ed O said:


> If it's a minor point: don't make a fool of yourself bending over backwards trying to defend it.
> 
> As for Bonzi slipping on draft day: I'd love to see ANY evidence that's the case. I followed the draft very closely that year and Bonzi wasn't expected to go in the top 10. Pierce definitely slid on draft day, but Bonzi did not, whether he was a jerk or not.
> 
> ...


Like I said, you're the one making personal attacks, not me. Get over yourself and deal with the thread. If you're just hurling insults, why don't you just start a new thread trashing me? This was a thread about Bonzi. I answered all of your points directly. You on the other hand are nitpicking and deflecting.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

1998 Mock Drafts that I could find:

CNN/SI: Bonzi not listed in first round

Usenet Mock draft: Bonzi selected at #13 (a certain member of this board made an excellent pick for Portland, incidentally)

Maybe you can use Canzano as a source for your point? You seem to be pretty comfortable doing it elsewhere.

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

maxiep said:


> Like I said, you're the one making personal attacks, not me.


Where's a personal attack?

That you're stretching the truth? When it's in response to a rather silly point like "Bonzi slipped on draft day because of his attitude" I think that's nothing approaching an attack on you except insofar as any unsupported point like that inherently makes the poster look bad when it's pointed out.

Where's the evidence that Bonzi slipped? I'd love to see it.

Ed O.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Ed O said:


> 1998 Mock Drafts that I could find:
> 
> CNN/SI: Bonzi not listed in first round
> 
> ...


I'll slow down and repeat myself so you can get it. Bonzi had character issues going back to HS. He was asked not to participate in a HS All Star game because of it. That's why he went to Ball State. Get it? 

He should have gone higher in the draft based on his talent, but he had character questions at Ball State and previously. Again I'll pause and allow that to sink in. 

We were able to trade for Bonzi with a protected first round pick when we had a good team, not because of his talent, but because of his character. He was traded to Memphis for a low draft pick and a washed up SG because of his character and not his talent. He was shipped from Memphis for the same reason.

All I said was that Bonzi's talent has never been questioned. His character has been questioned every step of the way.

Okay, your turn not to address my post but throw another insult my way.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Where's a personal attack?
> 
> That you're stretching the truth? When it's in response to a rather silly point like "Bonzi slipped on draft day because of his attitude" I think that's nothing approaching an attack on you except insofar as any unsupported point like that inherently makes the poster look bad when it's pointed out.
> 
> ...


Yes, accusing someone of stretching the truth is a personal attack. 

This isn't a court of law and I'm not your reference librarian. I don't need to prove anything to you nor do I choose to do your groundwork.

If you don't get that players aren't drafted as highly as they should be because of character issues, then I don't know what to say to you.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

maxiep said:


> I'll slow down and repeat myself so you can get it. Bonzi had character issues going back to HS. He was asked not to participate in a HS All Star game because of it. That's why he went to Ball State. Get it?


Why do I need you to post that? And what does that have to do with the things we're discussing (the little girl story and Bonzi "slipping" on draft day)? 



> He should have gone higher in the draft based on his talent, but he had character questions at Ball State and previously. Again I'll pause and allow that to sink in.


You can pause all you want. Why should I take your word for it? I've got two mock drafts that show Bonzi did NOT slide.

What do you have?



> Okay, your turn not to address my post but throw another insult my way.


I've asked you: what insults?

I do find your approach rather amusing, though. You start with a baseline that no one can argue with, then you pile stuff on top that you either make up or cannot support, then you play the victim (and a snide one, at that) when people call you on it.

If this thread were about, say, Abraham Lincoln, I could see it going like this:



maxiep said:


> Lincoln was the best president. He freed the slaves and didn't eat babies. I also heard a story that he once was considered the best wood-chopper in his hometown by a local midwife. Of course, he also annexed Cuba.





everyone else said:


> Um... why does a local midwife's opinion of his woodchopping have anything to do with him as a president? And he didn't annex Cuba, or if he did, please provide a link.





maxiep said:


> Cool it with the personal attacks. I'm trying to talk about how great Lincoln was, sport. I'm going to take my 150 posts and go back to olive if you don't stay on target.


Seriously, so much attitude from you for so little substance...

Ed O.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Bonzi is a pretty good baskeball player, but he's a headcase...The amount of teams that have let him go, despite what he brings to the court is an obvious indicator that he is a lockeroom cancer and his abilities on the court don't justify his behavior at all....

Some of the 'jailblazers' apologists are amusing to watch.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Why do I need you to post that? And what does that have to do with the things we're discussing (the little girl story and Bonzi "slipping" on draft day)?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems like you're hung up on my perceived "attitude" and are ignoring the larger discussion.

First, the thread was about Bonzi and attitude issues in Portland, not a story used an example of those attitude problems. If you want to take it afield, take it somewhere else.

Second, you're hung up on semantics. Gosh, Ed if it makes you feel all warm and cuddly, I should have said "dropped in the draft based on where his talent should have dictated that he go". Is that all better? But thanks for those swell internet references. I enjoyed them greatly.

Third, I showed you the insult that started it. You think I'm stretching the truth, in other words calling me untruthful. Perhaps that doesn't bother you to be called that, but it does me. You also called me a fool and someone giving you attitude. 

I'm glad you find my posts amusing, because you're clearly missing their larger points. This thread was about Bonzi. If you want to make a new thread, go to town. But it seems like you just want to argue. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself for you to understand.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> Bonzi is a pretty good baskeball player, but he's a headcase...The amount of teams that have let him go, despite what he brings to the court is an obvious indicator that he is a lockeroom cancer and his abilities on the court don't justify his behavior at all....
> 
> Some of the 'jailblazers' apologists are amusing to watch.


God bless you Zags for bringing the discussion back on point. The idea that Bonzi's behavior is Portland's fault and not his own is laughable.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

this thread need to be closed we dont need this type of fighting do that in pms please 

yes bonzi was a jailblazer and a headcase


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Utherhimo said:


> this thread need to be closed we dont need this type of fighting do that in pms please
> 
> yes bonzi was a jailblazer and a headcase


Utherhimo, I couldn't agree more. If I wanted to spend my time with these petty arguments, I'd post back in O-Live. I guess no matter where you go, there will always be people that would rather fight about something tangential than talk Blazers.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

maxiep said:


> Second, she only added the comment to Bonzi after he said he wasn't him. She didn't go to insult him. Try reading a bit closer.


Considering Bonzi's response was a good-natured joke (this was noted in your anecdote...were _you_ keeping track?), it's pretty obvious the girl went up to him with the intention of that response. It wasn't provoked.



> You should be more careful than reading an isolated incident before deciding who is or isn't a good parent.


Says the poster using an isolated incident to decide who was or wasn't a jerk in college.

Look up the word "irony."


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

maxiep said:


> Utherhimo, I couldn't agree more. If I wanted to spend my time with these petty arguments, I'd post back in O-Live. I guess no matter where you go, there will always be people that would rather fight about something tangential than talk Blazers.


Don't waste your time Maxie, it's a foregone conclusion in these parts that Ed has a veritable man-crush on Bonzi. (sorry, Ed, for the tranparency in my remark.  )

Nothing you could ever say or do will change that said reality.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Considering Bonzi's response was a good-natured joke (this was noted in your anecdote...were _you_ keeping track?), it's pretty obvious the girl went up to him with the intention of that response. It wasn't provoked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course you're correct. I forgot before said incident that Bonzi's nickname at Ball State was "Mother Teresa".


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

ABM said:


> Don't waste your time Maxie, it's a foregone conclusion in these parts that Ed has a veritable man-crush on Bonzi. (sorry, Ed, for the tranparency in my remark.  )
> 
> Nothing you could ever say or do will change that said reality.


Good to know. I was wondering why he became so exercised. Your point explains why.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

ABM said:


> Don't waste your time Maxie, it's a foregone conclusion in these parts that Ed has a veritable man-crush on Bonzi. (sorry, Ed, for the tranparency in my remark.  )
> 
> Nothing you could ever say or do will change that said reality.


The "reality" is that Bonzi Wells is a hell of a basketball player. That he dominated the Spurs is just another demonstration of that.

I don't deny that he's a jerk, although I don't know that for a fact. But I don't really care, either, except insofar as it affects his ability to help his team win games. And considering the Blazers went in the crapper immediately after they gave him away (although they did have a pretty good stretch before trading Rasheed) I think that he was still helping them win games in spite of whatever personality flaws he might have.

With that being said, when someone uses flimsy evidence to support their point, I'll often chime in whether it's about Bonzi Wells or any other player.

Ed O.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

dominated right out of the first round
demonstration that bonzi isnt that good
the kings lost 
then they fire adelmen and will over pay bonzi 
cooper or kareem will coach the team 
bonzi will be back to his old self
cus he just got paid!
its really clear of day, hindsight its 20/20!


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Ed O said:


> The "reality" is that Bonzi Wells is a hell of a basketball player. That he dominated the Spurs is just another demonstration of that.
> 
> I don't deny that he's a jerk, although I don't know that for a fact. But I don't really care, either, except insofar as it affects his ability to help his team win games. And considering the Blazers went in the crapper immediately after they gave him away (although they did have a pretty good stretch before trading Rasheed) I think that he was still helping them win games in spite of whatever personality flaws he might have.
> 
> ...


Who here doubts Bonzi's talent and ability to play basketball? I doubt his ability to be a good teammate and give effort every night. That stems from him being a *******. 

I didn't realize that you would play Judge Judy and I would have to present a case that Bonzi's a jerk--it seemed prima facie to me and to almost every other reasonable basketball observer. I'm sorry you're so invested in Bonzi you can't see that his personality flaws severely diminish his ability to function as a member of a team.

You remind me of a poster I used to see in O-Live. His moniker is Stevereno and he loves Darius Miles. He talks about what a great player Darius is and how we're just not properly motivating him. He's an enabler too. Perhaps the two of you should get together and chat about how Bonzi and Darius are being kept out of Springfield because of their teammates and organizations that don't appreciate what they have in those two. 

Vaya con Dios.


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Ed O said:


> The "reality" is that Bonzi Wells is a hell of a basketball player....


So were Rider and Rodman.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

maxiep said:


> You remind me of a poster I used to see in O-Live. His moniker is Stevereno and he loves Darius Miles. He talks about what a great player Darius is and how we're just not properly motivating him. He's an enabler too.


Despite what ABM said, Ed doesn't irrationally defend Bonzi or "love him." He's working from two principles:

1. Talent is more important than character to winning ballgames (therefore, it was a bad decision to dump a talented ballplayer for worse players, even if he was a jerk)

2. Poor logic or flimsy evidence should be noted. Your sarcastic response that you didn't know you had to present an air-tight case is a strawman. You don't have to present an air-tight case, you need to present evidence or arguments that have some logical validity. You should also not fly off the handle when your arguments are criticized.

If anyone has an emotional axe to grind, it would appear to be you, as you seem to have a tough time gracefully handling disagreement on this issue.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

ABM said:


> So were Rider and Rodman.


Absolutely. So what?

Rider self-destructed, clearly, but Wells hasn't done that.

Rodman was on the verge of doing it, but even while seemingly on the brink he significantly contributed to, what, 5 championship teams?

Ed O.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Despite what ABM said, Ed doesn't irrationally defend Bonzi or "love him." He's working from two principles:
> 
> 1. Talent is more important than character to winning ballgames (therefore, it was a bad decision to dump a talented ballplayer for worse players, even if he was a jerk)
> 
> ...


Thanks for your opinion. It's noted. 

Here are the principles from which I'm working.

1. Character matters. You need both talent and character, and contrary to what the apologists believe, they are not mutually exclusive. Talent got us to the Western Conference Finals. Character got SA and LA to the NBA Championship.

2. I don't mind when my arguments are criticized. I agree to disagree all the time. I mind when someone wants to argue one thing, but uses a minor point to do it. It's called deflection, it's a typical debating tactic and it's cheap. It appears Ed O really wanted to defend Bonzi, but for some reason didn't wish to address it directly, so he went after some throwaway story in my post. And, could you please point out where I flew "off the handle"?

I appear to have gotten under your skin as I don't even have an emotional axe, nor would I need to grind it. You came rushing to the defense of your friend, and my defending my position makes me graceless and someone who flies off the handle. I get it. Let's agree to disagree, shall we?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

maxiep said:


> I appear to have gotten under your skin as I don't even have an emotional axe, nor would I need to grind it.


Then why all the sarcasm and condescension? You clearly are invested emotionally in your opinion.



> You came rushing to the defense of your friend


Rushing? You and Ed have argued since yesterday, and I've made two unrelated posts in the meantime. Using distortions like this is simply a cheap tactic to try and undermine the other person. I merely disagreed with a post of yours and noted why. There was no "rushing" to anyone's defense.



> and my defending my position makes me graceless and someone who flies off the handle.


No, your inability to discuss in a calm, reasonable manner is what makes your defenses of your point graceless.

But yes, we can agree to disagree.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Then why all the sarcasm and condescension? You clearly are invested emotionally in your opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please point out where I have not been anything but calm and reasonable. Gee, it's funny when you ask me to back something up, I do so. When I ask you the same, you call me graceless. Classy.


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Ed O said:


> Absolutely. So what?
> 
> Rider self-destructed, clearly, but Wells hasn't done that..



Nonetheless, there's still talk in Sactown as if they're wondering if they want him to return.

However, as there will be a new coach in place by next season, they'll probably find a way to re-sign him. Coaches are notorious for, "I'll figure out a way to get the best out of this guy" routines.

Again, as good as Wells was against the Spurs - and he was - I found it at least curious that the local media was talking about him not being re-signed (while, at the same time, it had been written that he clearly wants to stay there.)


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

maxiep said:


> Please point out where I have not been anything but calm and reasonable. Gee, it's funny when you ask me to back something up, I do so. When I ask you the same, you call me graceless. Classy.


Actually, I missed your initial request for examples. My apologies for that.

Here you go:



> Gee Ed, I'm sorry someone peed in your cornflakes today.





> If you can't understand Bonzi is a well know a-hole, then you're beyond help.





> Try reading a bit closer.





> People really have their panties in a twist over this story





> I guess some people just like to argue.





> Catching on now sparky?





> I know it's late at night, but if you're going to post, at least try doing so logically.





> Aw Eddie, someone has some hurt feelings.





> I'll slow down and repeat myself so you can get it.
> ...
> Get it?
> ...
> Again I'll pause and allow that to sink in.





> If I wanted to spend my time with these petty arguments, I'd post back in O-Live.


Bear in mind, you considered this a personal attack: _"Sounds like you're stretching more than a little bit there."_ Which is one of the mildest criticisms one sees in Internet discussions. All of the above are more attacking then the comment you took issue with.


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

All of those comments seem pretty mild compared to other threads here.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

maxiep said:


> 1. Character matters. You need both talent and character, and contrary to what the apologists believe, they are not mutually exclusive. Talent got us to the Western Conference Finals. Character got SA and LA to the NBA Championship.


For me, your argument went in the crapper the second you used Lakers and character in the same sentence.

Kobe does not have character, and Shaq is a character, not a possesor of it.

Me, I think you are confusing Drive with Character.

You need both talent and DRIVE to win a championship.

Champions known to be without character: Kobe, Jordan, Rodman, Magic, etc., etc., etc.

Recent players with character (or appear to the public to have it) AND talent, but alas, no rings: Alan Houston, Ray Allen, Grant Hill, Elton Brand, etc., etc.

What you really need to win is not Talent, not Talent and Drive, but SUPREME Talent (MVP caliber) and Drive (Duncan, Shaq, Jordan, et al), or Talent All Around, Great System AND Drive (Detroit twice).

I am failing to see the primacy of character in my formulas. It seems to be a common allure to ascribe morality to our sports figures. If you win you automatically have a better character in the eyes of the factless public, than those who lose. 

One winner, all others losers. Even if you limit the "losers" to the good teams, are you saying ALL those other good teams lack the character of the champion?


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Thanks for the quotes. I can see where I've become quite unhinged. It really does appear that I became enranged. I apologize for unleashing my fury in that uncontrollable fashion.

This is what I love. I wanted to talk about Bonzi and his attitude issues, and there are posters that just want to fight about a stupid little story I read once and something that was pointed out that Canzano actually got from the movie "Airplane". Take your issues elsewhere; I'm not interested in satisfying your need to argue anymore. There are plenty of other people that are interested in such petty issue. I just want to talk Blazers.



















Bear in mind, you considered this a personal attack: _"Sounds like you're stretching more than a little bit there."_ Which is one of the mildest criticisms one sees in Internet discussions. All of the above are more attacking then the comment you took issue with.[/QUOTE]


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

maxiep said:


> Thanks for the quotes. I can see where I've become quite unhinged. It really does appear that I became enranged. I apologize for unleashing my fury in that uncontrollable fashion.


Nice strawman. Give it a good beating. That strawman had it coming.



> This is what I love. *I wanted to talk about Bonzi and his attitude issues*, and there are posters that just want to fight about a stupid little story I read once and something that was pointed out that Canzano actually got from the movie "Airplane". Take your issues elsewhere


And some people found your points about Wells and evidence for those points unconvincing. Take your issues elsewhere.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Masbee said:


> For me, your argument went in the crapper the second you used Lakers and character in the same sentence.
> 
> Kobe does not have character, and Shaq is a character, not a possesor of it.
> 
> ...


That's great. We disagree about character in sports. You appear to think that character is about being a choir boy. I think it's about looking within yourself and doing more than you thought you were possible of. Character to me is the ability to be down 15 points in the 4th quarter after blowing a 3-1 game lead and still be able to harness the reserves to come back. Lack of character is not having the fortitude to withstand that assault. Before you call me a Laker Lover, I hate the Lakers more than any other sports franchise.

We had all the talent in the world. We didn't have the character to harness it when times got tough.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Nice strawman. Give it a good beating. That strawman had it coming.
> 
> 
> 
> And some people found your points about Wells and evidence for those points unconvincing. Take your issues elsewhere.



Nice deflection. One day you'll be able to catch up and understand the larger point. Until then, keep nitpicking. It's a noble endeavor.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

maxiep said:


> I wanted to talk about Bonzi and his attitude issues, and there are posters that just want to fight about a stupid little story I read once and something that was pointed out that Canzano actually got from the movie "Airplane". Take your issues elsewhere; I'm not interested in satisfying your need to argue anymore. There are plenty of other people that are interested in such petty issue. I just want to talk Blazers.


That's fine, no one is forcing you to post about anything in particular. But at the same time, you don't get to vote on what other people post. They can post whatever they feel like (within the site rules).

If you didn't want that stupid little story to be discussed here, you shouldn't have posted it.

barfo


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

barfo said:


> That's fine, no one is forcing you to post about anything in particular. But at the same time, you don't get to vote on what other people post. They can post whatever they feel like (within the site rules).
> 
> If you didn't want that stupid little story to be discussed here, you shouldn't have posted it.
> 
> barfo


And I can post whatever I'd like. Ain't America great?

That being said, I was interested in discussing Bonzi. If we want to talk about a story I later found was likely untrue, we can do that as well. But I'm free to say it's a stupid discussion.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

maxiep said:


> That's great. We disagree about character in sports. You appear to think that character is about being a choir boy. I think it's about looking within yourself and doing more than you thought you were possible of. Character to me is the ability to be down 15 points in the 4th quarter after blowing a 3-1 game lead and still be able to harness the reserves to come back. Lack of character is not having the fortitude to withstand that assault. Before you call me a Laker Lover, I hate the Lakers more than any other sports franchise.
> 
> We had all the talent in the world. We didn't have the character to harness it when times got tough.


You don't suppose it had anything to do with:

The best single player on the floor was a Laker: Shaq.
The MVP of the entire league was a Laker: Shaq.
The second best single player on the floor was a Laker: Kobe.
The Triangle offense is a proven superior System, run by: Lakers.
The vastly superior, hall of fame laden, coaching staff was retained by: Lakers.
The team with best record in the regular season: Lakers.
The home court officiating was just that - in favor of: Lakers.

It is a wonder the Blazers were even in a position to win that series. They end up losing, and it is MAGICALLY ascribed to "character".

Which has now been redefined midstream, by you personally, from the accepted dictionary definition to some mystically magic power that the "winners" have and the "losers" don't. 

And fancy that, your definition of character means that you cannot know in advance who "has it" and who don't. Sweet. So why do you even worry about it?

Please forgive me if I call complete bull****.

Just because you have a lot of sports fans that agree with this line of thinking, and in fact, it is part of the mythology of a lot of (crap) sports writing (helps drive the storyline, when the truth is far more pedestrian), doesn't make it any more true.

Of course, that's my opinion. I could be wrong. But....I'm not.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

Masbee said:


> You don't suppose it had anything to do with:
> 
> The best single player on the floor was a Laker: Shaq.
> The MVP of the entire league was a Laker: Shaq.
> ...


I remember when I was 18 and I knew everything too.

We were up by almost 20 points late in the 3rd quarter and we couldn't hold the lead. I'm of the opinion that Shaq and Kobe were the two best players on the two rosters. The next best Laker after those two came after roughly 10 Blazers. We had the superior talent, yet when push came to shove we fell apart. 

Call bull**** all you want, but this is a largely semantic argument. We'll just agree to disagree.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Masbee again.


Dammit.

Ed O.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Ed O said:


> Dammit.
> 
> Ed O.





> You must actually like Ed O before giving it to Ed O again.


hm..that sounds dirty.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

SMiLE said:


> hm..that sounds dirty.


Kobe avatar + fishy post = pattern for SMiLE.

Ed O.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Ed O said:


> Kobe avatar + fishy post = pattern for SMiLE.
> 
> Ed O.


check your user CP now (hm..maybe that'll replace "check your PM's" as the quick way to get messages across that we don't want to send through PM)


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

This thread has become a virtual miasma.


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