# Spain: we wuz robbed!



## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Both Calderon and Reyes have come out and said that if the Gold Medal game had been called (as it was supposed to be) by FIBA rules, then they would have won. Their main complaint was the traveling (watch their bench below):










And this goes into more detail:

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## #10 (Jul 23, 2004)

NBA players traveling!? Never!


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## stupendous (Feb 17, 2003)

This is VERY interesting. I was wondering what the players were screaming about when that happened. I think a discrepancy here is when the player actually has control of the ball.

This kind of reminds me when I used to officiate 2nd grade basketball. Parents would scream about traveling or double dribbling or the like, and expect them to be enforced. And while I recognized the infractions, we would be there ALL night if I made those calls on a consistent basis. I think their definition of traveling happens all to much (especially in the NBA) making it difficult to strictly enforce that.

That being said, I don't think it would have made a difference. Especially when some of the clips in question were un-defended fast break dunks anyway.


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## thaKEAF (Mar 8, 2004)

cry me a riiiverrrrr


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## stupendous (Feb 17, 2003)

thaKEAF said:


> cry me a riiiverrrrr


HA! Your avatar is epic!

Seriously, I agree that several of those clips were travels, but does a "travel" that happens before you even cross half-court and meet up with the defenders really affect the flow of the game? Of course not. Of course, if EVERY travel was accurately called, the U.S. probably WOULD have lost that game - but that just isn't realistic or necessary.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

Those are travelling in _any_ league. I noticed the Kobe one in that clip during the game. There were a few times during the game I asked, "Aren't they going to call travelling?" One of of those times, they actually did; then Kobe smirked and complained about being pushed. Someone did put a hand on him, but it was well after the travel. I doubt Kobe even understood he did in fact travel, he's so used to getting away with it night in and night out.


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

Boo hoo

The entire Olympics the Spanish team proved itself to be the new "Ugly Americans" with their racist photos and their non-stop bellyaching in every game I watched.


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## stupendous (Feb 17, 2003)

Also, in that first animated picture you have there - look at the Spanish player running at the bottom of the court call traveling before it even happens! Honestly, I cant see how that one is traveling anyway because he is progressing with the ball without picking it up completely, but the whole Spain team goes ape-poop on the sidelines.


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## stupendous (Feb 17, 2003)

All of the in-game focus on the traveling also shows that Spain was pouting and focusing on that issue instead of taking care of business and conquering the obstacle at hand. 

Obviously I don't feel too sorry for them.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

That's Rubio, and he doesn't signal the travel until the 3rd step.


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## stupendous (Feb 17, 2003)

BBert said:


> That's Rubio, and he doesn't signal the travel until the 3rd step.


Ah, is the issue from when he actually CATCHES the ball? It is kind of hard to see in that clip. I just don't see the dunk to be a travel.


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

BBert said:


> That's Rubio, and he doesn't signal the travel until the 3rd step.


I'm not sure which clip you are watching, but Rubio CLEARLY starts the motion almost immediately after the ball is picked up.


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

stupendous said:


> Ah, is the issue from when he actually CATCHES the ball? It is kind of hard to see in that clip. I just don't see the dunk to be a travel.


That can't be. The ball is caught and put on the floor almost immediately.

What a bunch of crybabies. Maybe Rubio should have got back on defense instead of whining to the refs.


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## stupendous (Feb 17, 2003)

PapaG said:


> What a bunch of crybabies. Maybe Rubio should have got back on defense instead of whining to the refs.


That's what I'm saying. Travel or not (which I think not), it doesn't excuse the fact that they A.) probably turned the ball over on that play, and B.) didn't have a safety valve on defense, which is typically the point guard's (aka Rubio) job.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Not to defend the Spaniards, but maybe Rubio is calling travel on the catch (you can't really see where Bryant receives the ball) while the bench is calling it as he goes for the dunk. In other words, they think he traveled TWICE on the same play (with a single dribble in the middle). (Edit: look at it again: essentially he travels half the court with the ball, and it touches the ground ONCE. That's no mean feat, even if you've got big strides!)

It's too late to complain about the US traveling by the time it gets to the Gold Medal game. As the video shows, they were getting away with it the whole tournament. Either the refs should always have called it, or just admitted that it wasn't going to be called (which, I guess, tacitly they did).


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The funny thing is, if you catch the ball in motion and take two steps (which Wade did) that is not a travel. I don't know why people think it is. Also considering Wade never really caught the ball. The problem here is that these European guys think a fastbreak has to stop and catch the ball and then start again. That would be wrong.


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## ProZach (Oct 13, 2005)

All Spain does is whine. If they didn't whine and flop and get all melodramatic over every possession, then maybe I'd take them more seriously. The U.S. beat them, it's over. By whining after the fact they just look even more silly, if that's even possible.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

ProZach said:


> All Spain does is whine. If they didn't whine and flop and get all melodramatic over every possession, then maybe I'd take them more seriously. The U.S. beat them, it's over. By whining after the fact they just look even more silly, if that's even possible.


Hmm. Whining after the fact about a Gold Medal game. How un-American.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

HKF said:


> The funny thing is, if you catch the ball in motion and take two steps (which Wade did) that is not a travel.


1. It's Kobe.
2. Yes it is - by FIBA rules. Which the Olympics supposedly abide by.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Have you ever played basketball? I don't give a crap if it's a travel by FIBA rules. If you call that traveling, you might as well get rid of fast break basketball. 

You're not allowed to take three steps, which he didn't.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

HKF said:


> Have you ever played basketball?


Yes.



> I don't give a crap if it's a travel by FIBA rules.


Neither, apparently, did the referees.



> If you call that traveling, you might as well get rid of fast break basketball.


Because, after all, _it's not humanly possible_ to bounce the ball without holding it in two hands first.



> You're not allowed to take three steps, which he didn't.


This would be according to the offical "rules of the universe" that apply to the God-like players of the United States wherever they might play?


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

meru said:


> Hmm. Whining after the fact about a Gold Medal game. How un-American.


Comparing that game to the '72 Olympics really hurt your argument more than it helped it... maybe you didn't watch that game, but the situations aren't comparable.


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## TLo (Dec 27, 2006)

Those *definitely *should have been travelling calls. Maybe the refs were intimidated, I don't know. It would be interesting if the tape showed that Spain got away with similar violations though.


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## RetroBlazers (Jun 29, 2003)

nice, he took 6 steps from half court with the ball and took 1 dribble. seems like a travel, but i'm not an official


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## BlazerFan22 (Jul 4, 2006)

ProZach said:


> All Spain does is whine. If they didn't whine and flop and get all melodramatic over every possession, then maybe I'd take them more seriously. The U.S. beat them, it's over. By whining after the fact they just look even more silly, if that's even possible.


I sure hope Rudy isen't a whiner and a flopper.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

Considering all of the BS non-calls I saw called against the US, if Spain really believes that this one play (which I think is pretty ambiguous) going their way would swing the contest in their favor then they need to nut up and shut up.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

:boohoo::boohoo:


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## ProZach (Oct 13, 2005)

BlazerFan22 said:


> I sure hope Rudy isen't a whiner and a flopper.


Most likely he is. It seems like all these countries where soccer is so huge, like Argentina for example, all their athletes try to mimic the melodramatics of their soccer players. By my count we won by 11, not 2. Bad calls are in every game, both ways. This is a non topic, so meru needs to quit his anti-America rant.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

stupendous said:


> Of course, if EVERY travel was accurately called, the U.S. probably WOULD have lost that game - but that just isn't realistic or necessary.


Nonsense.

Travelling is the easiest call in the game to make.

The blind eye constantly turned to it for SOME players is why the NBA has no credibility as a true competitive sport in many people's eyes. It's why it is often compared to wrasslin' as a rigged entertainment league.

I congratulate Spain on their Olympic win over the US cheaters.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)




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## Sonny-Canzano (Oct 20, 2007)

Fine, take those two points away and Spain still would have lost.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

MARIS61 said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> Travelling is the easiest call in the game to make.
> 
> ...


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

I never said Spain should have won. I'd like you to find an "anti-American rant" in anything in this thread. But it is amazing how defensive so many people are in this thread. Well, I guess not TOO amazing. Is it impossible to believe that maybe, had calls gone differently, the US could have lost? 

Also, again, nobody's saying that it's JUST THIS ONE PLAY. That's what's called an _example_. If you watch the little movie, there are plenty of examples of blatant travels. Now, before some genius points out that they happen against people like Angola, once again, they're EXAMPLES. And if the refs called them, the US would still have beaten Angola, but might've been a hell of a lot more tentative in other games. So who knows? It could have affected play. 

Personally, I think the complaints of people like Tim Duncan about FIBA rules may have had some effect. Everyone in FIBA wants the biggest stars from the US to compete. They were huge draws in China. So they're not about to call too many travels and stop the fans seeing their breakaway dunks, are they?

But at least admit that US players travel and get away with it. You can be a good patriotic American and do that, don't worry. (If you're that bothered, find clips of Spanish players doing it. You can probably find those, too.)


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

Kobe and LeBron getting two quick ticky-tack fouls is completely legit, however.


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## mgb (Jun 26, 2004)

meru said:


> I never said Spain should have won. I'd like you to find an "anti-American rant" in anything in this thread. But it is amazing how defensive so many people are in this thread. Well, I guess not TOO amazing. Is it impossible to believe that maybe, had calls gone differently, the US could have lost?
> 
> Also, again, nobody's saying that it's JUST THIS ONE PLAY. That's what's called an _example_. If you watch the little movie, there are plenty of examples of blatant travels. Now, before some genius points out that they happen against people like Angola, once again, they're EXAMPLES. *And if the refs called them, the US would still have beaten Angola, but might've been a hell of a lot more tentative in other games.* So who knows? It could have affected play.
> 
> ...


Or they would have adjusted their game accordingly as they do when the refs are calling light fouls.

In the Olympics I've seen some terrible officiating/judging, but it's gone both ways so it affects both players/teams the same over all.

If I was them I would have complained about at the end of the game when USA got 4 foul shots and the ball back. That put the game away.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

stupendous said:


> Ah, is the issue from when he actually CATCHES the ball? It is kind of hard to see in that clip. I just don't see the dunk to be a travel.


You are right. The dunk isn't the travel. He is catching the ball at the very start of the clip. He travels before he dribbles in for the dunk.


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## BenDavis503 (Apr 11, 2007)

LOL wow. The slant eyes picture then this? Rudy is a flopper but we will love it when he does it for us.

BTW yes, that avatar is amazing!!! Poor Pao


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

IMO, REALLY low-class move by Calderon and Reyes to say that. Whiny *****es...

The refs were so terrible, and I watched all of USA and Spain's games...it's not like they were biased in favor of USA. The bad calls go both ways. STFU Calderon...


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## Futurama_Fanatic (Jul 21, 2005)

all that flopping has caused the spanish team to become a bunch of whiny pussies.

i blame soccer


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

c_note said:


> The refs were so terrible, and I watched all of USA and Spain's games...it's not like they were biased in favor of USA. The bad calls go both ways.


I agree with this part of your post. The refs weren't very good in many of the games and were generally inconsistent. The US team would have won the gold no matter what, but it has to be frustrating for players to see the (FIBA) rules they are trained to follow ignored by the refs and the opposing team. It would have been to the Spanish players' advantage had they not gotten caught up in debating the refs about it; but you see NBA players and teams do the same thing. That's why coaches like Nate try to keep their players from getting into it with the refs and just focus on the things you can control, like how you are playing the game.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Dan said:


>


Smilies just aren't good enough for you now, HappyDan?

You've gotten cultured or somethin'? 
:clap2:


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> The funny thing is, if you catch the ball in motion and take two steps (which Wade did) that is not a travel


it is if you start dribbling afterwards. it's not if you pass or make a layup.


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

that clip is a travel - and wow at some of the pathetic reactions in here... board is slippin.


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## Perfection (May 10, 2004)

Truehoop has an article about this. I understand the issue with the players. They make moves in the NBA that are considered traveling in FIBA due to the way the pivot foot is used. After a while, it simply becomes muscle memory and hard to change (like NBA players not instinctually grabbing a ball off the rim like is allowed). NBA players do get away with traveling too much, and I think it is a detriment to the game as it does not reward good defense. 

Overall, I see a reason for Spain complaining, but nothing will come of it.


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

yeah, i dont think it would have turned the game results but they got a point.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

they should have refused their silver medals like we did in 1972 if that's the way they feel about it.Of course the head of FIBA didn't commit a crime in this game like he did in that game when he came down from the stands and forced the refs to give the USSR another chance.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Diable said:


> they should have refused their silver medals like we did in 1972


They're whiny babies, but not THAT much whiny babies.

THIS is how you protest a referee's decision:


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

meru said:


> They're whiny babies, but not THAT much whiny babies.


If this is a slight against the '72 US team, I encourage you to watch the actual game.



Also, as an aside, I would love to see how the Spanish National Team would perform if they actually called moving screens...


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> Kobe and LeBron getting two quick ticky-tack fouls is completely legit, however.


Yep, same with all those moving screens.


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## stockfire (Jul 17, 2004)

To those of you saying Spain are crybabies: There was plenty of traveling by the U.S. It's one of the things that turns me off to the NBA. It should be called.


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## stockfire (Jul 17, 2004)

I'm shocked by the level of immaturity on some of the posters in this thread. Poor, poor winners. (well, YOU didn't win anything -- Team USA did)


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Dornado said:


> If this is a slight against the '72 US team, I encourage you to watch the actual game.


Okay - give me a link and I'll check it out.

But did the referees award the game to the USSR? Were the referees ACTUALLY Soviets? It was in Munich, right? So shouldn't the team accept the decision? 



> Also, as an aside, I would love to see how the Spanish National Team would perform if they actually called moving screens...


Are moving screens against FIBA rules?


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

FIBA Basketball Rules said:


> 44.9 Screening: Legal and illegal
> 
> 44.9.1 Screening occurs when a player attempts to delay or prevent an opponent who does not control the ball from reaching a desired position on the court.
> 
> ...


http://www.fiba.com/subsites/FIBA_rule/rules.htm



> I'm shocked by the level of immaturity on some of the posters in this thread. Poor, poor winners. (well, YOU didn't win anything -- Team USA did)


Wait, so Spanish players and Spanish fans can be amazingly poor sports/losers, and try and diminish our win, but American fans are poor winners when we defend our win. Ok...


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

it's one thing to be a sore loser, but quite another to be a sore winner..



meru said:


> Are moving screens against FIBA rules?


they are. but the refs don't seem to bother with them too much.


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## Genjuro (Jul 17, 2002)

FIBA gave instructions to the referees not to call travelling in open-court situations. It's an option, but I honestly don't like it. I don't like it because it's not the way FIBA competitions are called the rest of the year, therefore rewards players coming from the NBA, but it also rewards athleticism too much. A team like USA, which relies a lot on out-running their opponents, enjoys some advantage with this way of ignoring the rules.

I agree the moving screen is ilegal as well, but I like it better because it's called the same way all year long, and it helps those less athletic guys, so you can have on court really talented guys who might not be so athletic and still are effective.

Anyway, the Spanish NT knew for sure that the refs wouldn't call travelling in those situations, because it's not up to them, but they are given orders. However, it was probably a strategy to put some pressure on the refs to see some plays called their way. I'm not sure they succeeded doing this: I think the game was horribly officiated with plenty of bad calls (or lack of them) going both ways. Still, I don't think it affected the players themselves either, because they were probably perfectly aware of the situation and didn't lose focus on the game (indeed they played a great final IMO).

Oh, and Rudy Fernández is the most notorious flopper and whiner in the whole Spanish National Team.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Genjuro said:


> Oh, and Rudy Fernández is the most notorious flopper and whiner in the whole Spanish National Team.


Wow. Lakers games are going to be extra fun with Rudy vs. Sasha as a sideshow.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

MrJayremmie said:


> Wait, so Spanish players and Spanish fans can be amazingly poor sports/losers, and try and diminish our win,


That's right! It was a tiny, tiny win!



> but American fans are poor winners when we defend our win. Ok...


Stand by your win!

I think what he (I assume) meant was the comparison with pointing out actual footage of traveling with the response of giant pictures of baby shampoo. You don't "defend a win" by saying "nyah nyah nyah nya, we won you lost get over it!" You defend it by *showing* (not simply _claiming_) that either (a) it wasn't actually traveling (obviously hard to do in this case) or (b) there were enough discrepancies on both sides that it didn't make a difference (should be possible, but nobody's tried so far, because it's much more fun to post giant pictures of baby shampoo).


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

> Okay - give me a link and I'll check it out.
> 
> But did the referees award the game to the USSR? Were the referees ACTUALLY Soviets? It was in Munich, right? So shouldn't the team accept the decision?


the referees gave the USSR one extra chance to win the game.They failed.The time ran off the clock we won.The president of FIBA illegally came down from the stands and illegally made the scorers put time back on the clock.

At this point we should have went into the lockerroom,because the game was in fact over.If we had went into the lockerroom at this point we would have won and there would be no controversy about it.Instead the USSR finally scored.

You really don't know as much about anti-Americanism as your history suggests do you?


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> I think what he (I assume) meant was the comparison with pointing out actual footage of traveling with the response of giant pictures of baby shampoo. You don't "defend a win" by saying "nyah nyah nyah nya, we won you lost get over it!" You defend it by showing (not simply claiming) that either (a) it wasn't actually traveling (obviously hard to do in this case) or (b) there were enough discrepancies on both sides that it didn't make a difference (should be possible, but nobody's tried so far, because it's much more fun to post giant pictures of baby shampoo).


Re-watch the game, and look at the screens that Spain set. That is proof enough. You don't have to show proof that the game was horribly officiated both ways. Anyone who watched the game knows this, and it was like this throughout the olympics. Spain lost, so they complain. If they won, they wouldn't have said anything. The American players handled it with A LOT of class, unlike the Spanish team.


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## wizmentor (Nov 10, 2005)

The animated gif is not slowed down enough for me so I'm not sure.

The examples in the video are NOT traveling (but they would have been
called that way when I was a kid, I'm 44). I used to have trouble with
this, but the official rule cited by the video does NOT say that your
first foot that strikes the floor must be your pivot foot. They are very
clear about this in the video with big arrow pointing at Lebron's (and others)
first foot to hit the ground labeling it his pivot foot - that is not how the
NBA has been refereed in 20 years.

So,
If first step down = pivot => traveling in NBA and gold medal match was rampant
If second step down = pivot foot => not traveling

As to the complaining, if FIBA rules that first step down = traveling, then why
weren't the Spanish (and the other teams) complaining to the press after USAs first
game - surely the same type of this happened in every game. Indeed Calderon and
Gasol and any player who's played in the NBA or even watched the NBA knew this
would happen. 

Before ANY games were played, the European players should have told 
their coaches that traveling would occur regularly. The coaches should have told
the refs before the tourney to watch out for it. The refs, if they agreed, should
have told the USA about it before the tourney. The USA would make adjustments.
This process didn't happen, and the complaints primarily occurred after the last game
of the whole tourney  The Spaniards don't really care about the rules, they're just
mad that they lost.

Of course, I don't want to defend the USA too much. I thought their play was an abominable
display of poor basketball fundamentals.

Go Blazers!


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

I saw a clear cut case of Marc Gasol switching pivot foots AND traveling during a game. It wasn't called. Big deal. If it makes Spain feel better to put caveats on why they lost, then good for them.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

Genjuro said:


> ...
> 
> Oh, and Rudy Fernández is the most notorious flopper and whiner in the whole Spanish National Team.


And I have to say I really hope he cuts that bull**** a little bit when he comes here because it will do nothing for his cause and will only lead him to being singled out by some of the more egotistical referees who don't like being showed up by players; Rudy needs to take as many cues from Brandon Roy as possible in regards to his on court behavior and he'll actually win referees over in time.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

Did this really happen? I mean, did one or more Spanish players actually claim they would have won the game if travelling calls had been made under strict interpretation of FIBA rules? Or is this like the fictitious report that Rudy said he wouldn't sign with Portland if we drafted Rush -- which also created a bit of a firestorm around these parts. If I missed the link in this thread, please don't torch me, I apologize in advance. To date I have seen no evidence the Spanish players actually reacted the way they are being depicted by some in this thread.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

nikolokolus said:


> And I have to say I really hope he cuts that bull**** a little bit when he comes here because it will do nothing for his cause and will only lead him to being singled out by some of the more egotistical referees who don't like being showed up by players; Rudy needs to take as many cues from Brandon Roy as possible in regards to his on court behavior and he'll actually win referees over in time.


They are going to start fining players for "flopping" this year, n'est-ce pas? As an aside, I saw in another thread where Rudy was accused of flopping on a cut through the lane -- even though the replay clearly showed Prince put his arm out and hooked Rudy on the way by. I think some people are a little tough on Rudy, for some reason.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Diable said:


> the referees gave the USSR one extra chance to win the game.They failed.The time ran off the clock we won.The president of FIBA illegally came down from the stands and illegally made the scorers put time back on the clock.


But, as your President at the time said, "If the president does it, it can't be illegal".



> At this point we should have went into the lockerroom,because the game was in fact over.If we had went into the lockerroom at this point we would have won and there would be no controversy about it.Instead the USSR finally scored.


Presumably the team believed that what was happening was within the rules. Whether or not they went into the lockerroom wouldn't have changed the official result. Teams can't just walk off while they're ahead and refuse to come back, even if they believe the rules have been violated.

Time can be put back on the clock if a violation has supposedly occurred, right? Hell, last season they actually replayed the last few minutes of that Heat-Hawks game weeks later. And wasn't that by decree from NBA head office? Now, you can deny that a violation occured - fair enough - and that this was incredibly galling for the US - again, fair enough, but this just sounds to me like a team disputing that what happened was fair.

Presumably you're keeping quiet about the NUMEROUS infractions that the refs must have allowed for the hated Russkies even to be that close in the final seconds.



> You really don't know as much about anti-Americanism as your history suggests do you?


Huh?


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

BBert said:


> Did this really happen? I mean, did one or more Spanish players actually claim they would have won the game if travelling calls had been made under strict interpretation of FIBA rules? Or is this like the fictitious report that Rudy said he wouldn't sign with Portland if we drafted Rush -- which also created a bit of a firestorm around these parts. If I missed the link in this thread, please don't torch me, I apologize in advance. To date I have seen no evidence the Spanish players actually reacted the way they are being depicted by some in this thread.


I'm sorry to say that I've seen actual quotes from both Calderon and Reyes to that effect (but no others, and no official representatives of the team). Calderon made some of the comments on his blog (see links in the first post in this thread) and has since sort of retracted them, but I can't remember where I read the Reyes quote.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

Also, nikolokolus, I do share your disdain for flopping and arguing with the refs. I also don't like the rampant travelling in the NBA, particularly the way the untouchable 'stars' in the league just waltz around however they please. I think the players have the ability to adapt their game to the way the games are called (much like they finally made Shaq stop his 'jump stop', fake, travel, double fake, layup move after the Lakers third 'championship'). I blame Stern. :biggrin:


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

MrJayremmie said:


> but American fans are poor winners when we defend our win. Ok...


It's not "our" win. We didn't do anything. Watching doesn't count as contributing to a win.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> *Did this really happen? I mean, did one or more Spanish players actually claim they would have won the game if travelling calls had been made under strict interpretation of FIBA rules?* Or is this like the fictitious report that Rudy said he wouldn't sign with Portland if we drafted Rush -- which also created a bit of a firestorm around these parts. If I missed the link in this thread, please don't torch me, I apologize in advance. To date I have seen no evidence the Spanish players actually reacted the way they are being depicted by some in this thread.


Jose Calderon and Reyes both said that.



> It's not "our" win. We didn't do anything. Watching doesn't count as contributing to a win.


They were representing our country. They played for the USA, not for themselves. It wasn't the back of the jersey, but the front that mattered. I am part of America, as are a lot of people in this thread. In the olympics, certain athletes represent their countries. So when your country wins, it is your win (obviously not in a contribution way, but in the same sense that the blazers are "our" team).


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

nikolokolus said:


> And I have to say I really hope he cuts that bull**** a little bit when he comes here because it will do nothing for his cause and will only lead him to being singled out by some of the more egotistical referees who don't like being showed up by players; Rudy needs to take as many cues from Brandon Roy as possible in regards to his on court behavior and he'll actually win referees over in time.


Yeah, cuz it never works for Gasol, oh wait...well it never worked for Divac, oh wait...well it never works for Ginoblili, oh wait...well it never works for Kobe, oh wait...well it never worked for Jordan, oh wait...well maybe it won't work for Rudy, but I can't imagine why not.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> Yeah, cuz it never works for Gasol, oh wait...well it never worked for Divac, oh wait...well it never works for Ginoblili, oh wait...well it never works for Kobe, oh wait...well it never worked for Jordan, oh wait...well maybe it won't work for Rudy, but I can't imagine why not.


Because they are cutting down on flopping and starting to issue fines, perhaps?


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

MrJayremmie said:


> They were representing our country. They played for the USA, not for themselves. It wasn't the back of the jersey, but the front that mattered.


You'd like to believe that, but when SOME OF THE PLAYERS ignore some of our country's most basic laws and ideals by beating their wives, committing adultery and anal rape, lie to their fans, backstab their teammates, and threaten to play for whatever country will pay them the most, well, it's a quite a stretch to come anywhere near that conclusion.

Having Bryant and Kidd "represent" me is almost as embarrassing as being "represented" by the Bush/Cheney crime syndicate.

:azdaja:


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> You'd like to believe that, but when SOME OF THE PLAYERS ignore some of our country's most basic laws and ideals by beating their wives, committing adultery and anal rape, lie to their fans, backstab their teammates, and threaten to play for whatever country will pay them the most, well, it's a quite a stretch to come anywhere near that conclusion.
> 
> Having Bryant and Kidd "represent" me is almost as embarrassing as being "represented" by the Bush/Cheney crime syndicate.


Say what you want, but while over there, team USA represented our country with class.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

MrJayremmie said:


> Because they are cutting down on flopping and starting to issue fines, perhaps?


"They" have NOT cut down on flopping, nor have "they" started issuing fines.

And "they" won't, at least not in a fair and equal manner.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

MrJayremmie said:


> Say what you want, but while over there, team USA represented our country with class.


If they hadn't, if one of the Team USA players had raped a woman in China, would you have said he represented you? Or if a player, while wearing the Team USA jersey, had gone into the stands to get at a fan and accidentally seriously injured a child, would you have said he represented you? Do you really feel represented by a group of strangers who don't know you exist or care about you?

And, just for the record, I don't consider Blazer wins to be "our" wins, either. The wins are theirs...we just watched them.

We're not being "good winners" or "sore winners." We're not winners of any stripe due to the exploits of a group of highly trained athletes. Your own actions determine your "winner"-ness.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't look at it that way. I look at it like Team USA was one of the many athletes/teams representing my country in the olympics.

What they do off the court is their own business, just like every other American athlete in the olympics.



> "They" have NOT cut down on flopping, nor have "they" started issuing fines.
> 
> And "they" won't, at least not in a fair and equal manner.


Not yet, but the league said it will start issuing fines this year.


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## The Professional Fan (Nov 5, 2003)

The Spanish team is way out of line to cry about the officiating in the gold medal game. The officiating was atrocious on both sides of the ball. To bring up a traveling call or two as the reason they lost is pathetic and desperate.

I really wanted to enjoy watching the Spanish team, but what I found during the course of the Olympics is that they're a group of extremely whiny, *****y, flopping greasy euro-trash. I hate to say such things, but it's true. Their OVER reaction on the bench to the non call on the travel was embarrassing at a minimum. They remind me of a Jr High team.

I'm extremely PROUD of how the American team conducted themselves on the court, off the court, and on the bench. The US team out classed the Spanish team in every way.

End of story.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> If they hadn't, if one of the Team USA players had raped a woman in China, would you have said he represented you? Or if a player, while wearing the Team USA jersey, had gone into the stands to get at a fan and accidentally seriously injured a child, would you have said he represented you? Do you really feel represented by a group of strangers who don't know you exist or care about you?
> 
> And, just for the record, I don't consider Blazer wins to be "our" wins, either. The wins are theirs...we just watched them.
> 
> We're not being "good winners" or "sore winners." We're not winners of any stripe due to the exploits of a group of highly trained athletes. Your own actions determine your "winner"-ness.


I disagree.

While we certainly don't get a gold medal of our own, 'we' did win the game. The Olympics are a great example of a shared experience. In my opinion, when we view a basketball game, watch a movie, listen to a concert, whatever...the experience is unique to every viewer and it becomes our own. 

All that's necessary to make it 'our win' is for fans/viewers to identify with the performers and have a vested interest in the outcome. And it doesn't matter WHY I identify with the players involved or WHY my interest is vested. Maybe I went to high school with one. Maybe I like the way one does interviews. Maybe I admire somebody's dunking skills. Maybe I value the hard work that every one of these players put in to get where they are today. Whatever. If the team wins, then my positive identification with the player/players is reinforced. It makes the US national team's win 'my win.'

Even if I don't get a medal, I get a unique experience that even the players don't get. 'My win.'


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Fork said:


> I disagree.
> 
> While we certainly don't get a gold medal of our own, 'we' did win the game. The Olympics are a great example of a shared experience. In my opinion, when we view a basketball game, watch a movie, listen to a concert, whatever...the experience is unique to every viewer and it becomes our own.


I agree with the sense of shared experience, but I think breaking it by nationality is actually antithetical to the spirit of the Olympics (though popular). I think the Olympics celebrate a coming together of the entire world. If you or others said that they saw the US basketball gold as "your medal" but also the Chinese gymnastics gold medals as "yours," I would understand that a lot better. Essentially, that you share great experiences regardless of which particular nation accomplished them. Saying, "this group, based on geography, represents me and thus I share only the experience of their medals" strikes me as rather arbitrary.

I'm not denying that you have the right to feel that you share whatever you wish. I'm just telling you how it seems to me.


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## SodaPopinski (Aug 10, 2004)

I like how the douchebag who created that video with the "FIBA rules" in it used a clip from the USA/Angola game to show how the Spanish team was robbed. Huh?

Move along, folks. Nothing to see here.

-Pop


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## #10 (Jul 23, 2004)

MrJayremmie said:


> Because they are cutting down on flopping and starting to issue fines, perhaps?


And they're really going to get Kobe or even Derek Fisher for flopping? I'll believe it when I see it. More likely a foreign rookie would be a good choice to crack down on and make an 'example' out of him. Because according to most people in this thread, Europeans are the only floppers in the world, just like every soccer player. No flopping in the NFL, of course.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

#10 said:


> And they're really going to get Kobe or even Derek Fisher for flopping? I'll believe it when I see it. More likely a foreign rookie would be a good choice to crack down on and make an 'example' out of him. Because according to most people in this thread, Europeans are the only floppers in the world, just like every soccer player. No flopping in the NFL, of course.


I hate Kobe and the Lakeshow, but I don't think anyone would every say the he or Fisher are "floppers" -- whiners possibly, but not floppers.

Honestly I'm thrilled that the NBA will be penalizing the histrionic, arm-waving, "fish out of water" horse**** that a number of players have been perpetrating on the game for awhile now. I'm not going to generalize and say that it's just Euros doing it, but they sure seem to be the most visible. 

It's fine to take a charge, and there's nothing "unmanly" or effete about it if it's done well and right, but when a 220 pound man flies backwards ten feet, frantically waving his arms, after getting a little "rub" from a guy that weighs substantially less than him, I can't help but feel like I'm watching a pro-wrestling match and not a legitimate sporting contest; I just want to see guys "nut up" and play and leave the bad acting to douchebags like Rick Fox.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

^Kobe isn't that bad, imo. But Fisher is a pure flopper.

Hopefully this just makes the players think twice about it, and the referee's less inclined to give the floppers the call, and only fine in a very extreme case.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

As a Laker fan I must say....Fish Flops, when he doesnt get there in time, which he also does


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## mgb (Jun 26, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> *If they hadn't, if one of the Team USA players had raped a woman in China, would you have said he represented you?* Or if a player, while wearing the Team USA jersey, had gone into the stands to get at a fan and accidentally seriously injured a child, would you have said he represented you? Do you really feel represented by a group of strangers who don't know you exist or care about you?


Yes, and I would be totally embarrass by it since he is representing America.



Minstrel said:


> *And, just for the record, I don't consider Blazer wins to be "our" wins, either. The wins are theirs...we just watched them.*
> 
> We're not being "good winners" or "sore winners." We're not winners of any stripe due to the exploits of a group of highly trained athletes. Your own actions determine your "winner"-ness.


BS, they wouldn't even exist if not for us the fan. Who do you think pay their contracts? It's entertainment and if not for us it wouldn't be. And we make a direct effect at home. That's why they call it the home court advantage and refers to the fans as the sixth man.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

mgb said:


> Yes, and I would be totally embarrass by it since he is representing America.


Wow. I can't imagine giving strangers the power to represent me, for good or ill. If another US citizen rapes someone, he/she represents him/herself. Not me. Just because they may be a great athlete doesn't change that.



> BS, they wouldn't even exist if not for us the fan. Who do you think pay their contracts? It's entertainment


Sure, it's entertainment. Entertainment for us to watch their accomplishments. Just because they run a gimmick like calling the fans "the sixth man," in order to better foster a connection so you'll keep buying tickets, doesn't make their accomplishments ours.


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## mgb (Jun 26, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Wow. I can't imagine giving strangers the power to represent me, for good or ill. If another US citizen rapes someone, he/she represents him/herself. Not me. Just because they may be a great athlete doesn't change that.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, it's entertainment. Entertainment for us to watch their accomplishments. Just because they run a gimmick like calling the fans "the sixth man," in order to better foster a connection so you'll keep buying tickets, doesn't make their accomplishments ours.


They say it because fans can give them engergy. I've seen it and even been involed in it enough to know it's true. 

As I said if not for us they wouldn't even exist as a team so we can easily claim a win as well as the owner.


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## #10 (Jul 23, 2004)

> I hate Kobe and the Lakeshow, but I don't think anyone would every say the he or Fisher are "floppers" -- whiners possibly, but not floppers.


Kobe isn't a flopper, but he's the biggest whiner out there. My point is that Euros have this reputation as floppers when they aren't much different from American players. Maybe a larger percentage are bad floppers, but it's still an unfair stereotype.
Apparently, Rudy flops. But he'll be _our_ flopper, that's different. Besides, Prz already gets away with it a bit, and he's supposed to be the defensive enforcer.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

nikolokolus said:


> I hate Kobe and the Lakeshow, but I don't think anyone would every say the he or Fisher are "floppers" -- whiners possibly, but not floppers.
> 
> Honestly I'm thrilled that the NBA will be penalizing the histrionic, arm-waving, "fish out of water" horse**** that a number of players have been perpetrating on the game for awhile now. I'm not going to generalize and say that it's just Euros doing it, but they sure seem to be the most visible.
> 
> It's fine to take a charge, and there's nothing "unmanly" or effete about it if it's done well and right, but when a 220 pound man flies backwards ten feet, frantically waving his arms, after getting a little "rub" from a guy that weighs substantially less than him, I can't help but feel like I'm watching a pro-wrestling match and not a legitimate sporting contest; I just want to see guys "nut up" and play and leave the bad acting to douchebags like Rick Fox.


Kobe no, but Fisher is absolutely one of the biggest floppers in the NBA.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

mgb said:


> As I said if not for us they wouldn't even exist as a team so we can easily claim a win as well as the owner.


I suppose, in the sense that you can take credit for the creation of any consumer product...sports performance, movies, music, cars, televisions. If you buy it, you put money toward the development. Of course, not by investing and accepting risk, as an owner or investor does. So, if your take is that you're responsible for anything you've bought, that's fine.

It certainly isn't my perspective. Sure, nothing exists without consumers. But consumers benefit from the accomplishments of others. Creators create for the benefit of consumers. It's not a partnership.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

A little ridiculous how some are playing the semantics game with the word "represent".

In one meaning of the word Team USA does "represent" Americans at the games... just how the Bush Crime Family "represents" americans...

It doesn't mean they represent something about you personally or your character... the feigned outrage at the thought of that is a little misplaced.


Also, for the record, they replayed the end of the '72 gold medal game _three_ times... the Russians lost, then they replayed it because Russia claimed a timeout had been called... so they replayed it again... the US successfully defended the possession and everyone started celebrating the victory...

It was after _that_ that the head honcho or whomever came down and made them play it a 3rd time because he claimed the clock had been improperly set... it was a screw job. Even on the final play the guy inbounding the ball stepped over the end line, if I remember correctly. Point being, the '72 game and the '08 game are in no way comparable.


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## thetap (Aug 28, 2008)

Maris, Meru, Minstrel. Go on hating yourself for being an American...I won't. Continue to be weak..I won't be. All the excuses for other countries and not wanting to celebrate a US victory is disgusting. Only backwards liberals like yourselves would have a problem with an American team winning, but have no issue with the game being played in the largest communist nation in the world. God bless your right to act as you do. You three should get together and take a "eye" picture like your pals in Spain.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

thetap said:


> Maris, Meru, Minstrel. Go on hating yourself for being an American...I won't. Continue to be weak..I won't be. All the excuses for other countries and not wanting to celebrate a US victory is disgusting. Only backwards liberals like yourselves would have a problem with an American team winning, but have no issue with the game being played in the largest communist nation in the world. God bless your right to act as you do. You three should get together and take a "eye" picture like your pals in Spain.


I don't know if meru is "an American" (although, he might be...did you become a naturalized citizen meru?). 

But I know that Minstrel hates 'merica!


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

thetap said:


> Maris, Meru, Minstrel. Go on hating yourself for being an American...I won't. Continue to be weak..I won't be. All the excuses for other countries and not wanting to celebrate a US victory is disgusting. Only backwards liberals like yourselves would have a problem with an American team winning, but have no issue with the game being played in the largest communist nation in the world. God bless your right to act as you do. You three should get together and take a "eye" picture like your pals in Spain.


You signed up to say that? Go back where you came from...


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Dornado said:


> It doesn't mean they represent something about you personally or your character... the feigned outrage at the thought of that is a little misplaced.


I'm not outraged, feigned or otherwise. Your outrage at my supposed outrage is misplaced. Why are you so outraged? Palpable outrage is bad for the heart. Unless you are feigning your outrage. 

I don't believe that the exploits of US athletes (or Trailblazers) are shared accomplishments by all people who call themselves Americans (or Trailblazer fans). Simple as that. People who do consider US team victories to be "our" victories don't upset me in the slightest. I simply don't agree with them.


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

Minstrel said:


> It's not "our" win. We didn't do anything. Watching doesn't count as contributing to a win.


Ya good point. I might add, that noone else from any other country in the world is allowed to celebrate/discuss their country's victories and medals, unless, of course, they themselves were the actual athletes that won.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

c_note said:


> Ya good point. I might add, that noone else from any other country in the world is allowed to celebrate/discuss their country's victories and medals, unless, of course, they themselves were the actual athletes that won.


I never said anything about discussing. You are allowed to discuss your country's medals. I give you permission.

You're welcome!


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> I'm not outraged, feigned or otherwise. Your outrage at my supposed outrage is misplaced. Why are you so outraged? Palpable outrage is bad for the heart. Unless you are feigning your outrage.
> 
> I don't believe that the exploits of US athletes (or Trailblazers) are shared accomplishments by all people who call themselves Americans (or Trailblazer fans). Simple as that. People who do consider US team victories to be "our" victories don't upset me in the slightest. I simply don't agree with them.


Well this is an outrage!


I don't necessarily think they're shared accomplishment... just that it was still correct to say that the Trail Blazers "represent" Portland without it meaning what some people took it to mean... that they are somehow a representation of a particular American or Portlander's character. I don't care much for some of my elected representatives... but when the show up to vote, they represent me.... you know, semantics, that's all.


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## The Professional Fan (Nov 5, 2003)

Dornado said:


> You signed up to say that? Go back where you came from...


What, this person doesn't have to right to chime in because they only have one post? How do you know this person isn't a long time lurker and was finally inspired to post?


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## mgb (Jun 26, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> I suppose, in the sense that you can take credit for the creation of any consumer product...sports performance, movies, music, cars, televisions. If you buy it, you put money toward the development. Of course, not by investing and accepting risk, as an owner or investor does. So, if your take is that you're responsible for anything you've bought, that's fine.
> 
> It certainly isn't my perspective. Sure, nothing exists without consumers. But consumers benefit from the accomplishments of others. Creators create for the benefit of consumers. *It's not a partnership*.


I remember when I was younger and talking to my dad about my Cowboys and he'd ask me if I got a pay check.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

thetap said:


> Maris, Meru, Minstrel.


The three M's of 'merica hating.



> Go on hating yourself for being an American...I won't.


I didn't always hate America. But then I went to college and discovered that America is to blame for everything. The fact that you don't hate America I can only take to mean that you are not college educated.



> Only backwards liberals like yourselves would have a problem with an American team winning, but have no issue with the game being played in the largest communist nation in the world.


I don't have a problem with the games being played in the largest communist nation, no. I have a problem with the games being played in a nation with a regime that commits so many human rights violations.

But the US winning basketball gold is much worse than China's human rights violations.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

mgb said:


> I remember when I was younger and talking to my dad about my Cowboys and he'd ask me if I got a pay check.


Cute.  I wish I got a paycheck for the time I put into sports fandom as a kid.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

The Professional Fan said:


> What, this person doesn't have to right to chime in because they only have one post? How do you know this person isn't a long time lurker and was finally inspired to post?


What, I don't have a right to not like what he said and tell him to go back where he came from?


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## The Professional Fan (Nov 5, 2003)

Dornado said:


> What, I don't have a right to not like what he said and tell him to go back where he came from?


Had it not been this person's first post, I'm certain you would have responded differently (i.e. "back to where you came from"). 

But yeah, you have the right to say what you want - that's what we all love about this country, right?


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

The Professional Fan said:


> Had it not been this person's first post, I'm certain you would have responded differently (i.e. "back to where you came from").
> 
> But yeah, you have the right to say what you want - that's what we all love about this country, right?


well, the internet isn't "this country".


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## thetap (Aug 28, 2008)

Dornado said:


> What, I don't have a right to not like what he said and tell him to go back where he came from?


You have the right to say whatever you want...I'm sure all you do is talk.

I think I'll stick around. I love it here in the country I was born in, served and would die for. Thanks Professional Fan, Bonzi would be proud.

Wasn't it great having Kobe on OUR team?

 don't insult people or call people names.


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## The Professional Fan (Nov 5, 2003)

Dan said:


> well, the internet isn't "this country".


And I guess we're not really "saying" anything either, right? If you're going to get petty on me, take it all the way. Don't lay it up. Throw it down, big man.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

The Professional Fan said:


> And I guess we're not really "saying" anything either, right? If you're going to get petty on me, take it all the way. Don't lay it up. Throw it down, big man.


I think it would actually be type it big, internet dork, type it big!


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## The Professional Fan (Nov 5, 2003)

Dan said:


> well, the internet isn't "this country".





Dan said:


> I think it would actually be type it big, internet dork, type it big!


lol...no doubt!


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

meru said:


> Okay - give me a link and I'll check it out.
> 
> But did the referees award the game to the USSR? \


I'll say


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## piri (Feb 9, 2003)

stupendous said:


> That being said, I don't think it would have made a difference. Especially when some of the clips in question were un-defended fast break dunks anyway.


In fact if the refs call that un-defended travelling for only 5 times, then the game is a 1 point game.
It was at least a dozen (some news papers in Spain talk about 15) of times that USA players do travelling as it is considered in the Fiba rules...


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

thetap said:


> Maris, Meru, Minstrel.


Anti-Ammmericanism.



> Go on hating yourself for being an American


Actually it's that I secretly wish I WAS an American.



> ...I won't. Continue to be weak..I won't be.


You go! I notice you make no promises not to be lame.



> All the excuses for other countries and not wanting to celebrate a US victory is disgusting. Only backwards liberals like yourselves would have a problem with an American team winning,


Yes, us slarebils really do hate it when America wins. Er, I mean "wins", of course!



> but have no issue with the game being played in the largest communist nation in the world.


You've lost me. Are you saying it shouldn't have been played there? Or that the Games shouldn't have been staged there? Who knows - I might actually agree with you on some level if only what you said could be deciphered.



> God bless your right to act as you do.


Ayeeee! Curse you! My flesh burns at the mention of your American God!



> You three should get together and take a "eye" picture like your pals in Spain.


And Argentina!


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> In fact if the refs call that un-defended travelling for only 5 times, then the game is a 1 point game.
> It was at least a dozen (some news papers in Spain talk about 15) of times that USA players do travelling as it is considered in the Fiba rules...


OK, well then Spain will get their turnovers on all the moving screens. Fair?


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## Baracuda (Jan 10, 2007)

Did Rudy travel when he dunked on Howard?
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WQA57NCvorM&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WQA57NCvorM&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

Yeah, i think he did on the way to the hoop, but I wouldn't have called it. Both teams traveled.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

I wouldn't have called it either, but right at the ten second mark it sure does look like he took 3 steps (or maybe 2 1/2).

If some Spanish players, media, et. al. want to cry about a few non-calls for the US, without acknowledging some of the gift calls and non-calls that Spain benefited from that's their prerogative; all it does is cheapen what many people consider to be one of the best international basketball contests in history.


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