# Makedonikos or McEdonikos?



## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

Before I get into the point I want to make, I'd like to apologise from all the people of this forum that are not involved into Greek basketball and probably won't have a clue what I'm talking about.

The ones that know me from before, you probably already know about my weird obsession for teams' jerseys and logos. This thread is about something (ralated to that) that has annoyed me a lot. 

When Makedonikos Neapoleos Thessalonikis was promoted from the greek A2 division to the A1, the club's chairman decided to move the team to the town of Kozani in the NorthWest of Greece. Great idea! They bought a lot of amazing players (Liadelis, Papanikolaou, Hart, Papaioakeim, Handlogten, etc). Great too! They decided to build a brand new areana for the club. Great-Great-Great!

HOWEVER.....


Why did they had to introduce this new stupid logo? The old one was bad too (a very old-fashioned shield-like logo with the team's initials in one corner, the image of the "White Tower" of Thessaloniki in the other, and the team's full name written across the shield). Since the team moved from Thessaloniki the logo had to be changed. No problem with that. Nevertheless, WHY did they have to change it into this pathetic logo illustrating a ball in flames (forming something looking like 2 horns) and the team's name superimposed and written in an a-la-Olympiakos-style fashion. Horrible!!!

I mean, your team is called Makedonikos (M-A-K-E-D-O-N-I-K-O-S), can't you put in your logo something like the sun of Vergina or the head of Alexander the Great or something related to the meaning of your name and related to the region you represent? Why do you have to put something so typical as "a ball in flames", which actually looks as a flying-burning-burger? This idea is so bad it makes me sick. You are given the chance to make yourselves more identifiable and you pick a american-school logo? Awful!

And what about the jerseys? Have you noticed how they get soaked into sweat after the first 10-15 minutes? Are they made of cotton or something? Have they ever heard of the new-widely used jerseys that don't get wet by the player's sweat? 

:upset: :upset: :upset: 

These things may sound unimportant to most of you, but they are enough to stop me from watching a basketball game, and even to stop following a team.

What do you think of that?


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## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Zelena Hracka</b>!
> Before I get into the point I want to make, I'd like to apologise from all the people of this forum that are not involved into Greek basketball and probably won't have a clue what I'm talking about.


No no, I've. The 16th match-day has been great this week, despite the big disappointment I had watching Olympia Larisa - Olympiakos Piraeus on ERTsat. 
92-91 Larisa, ball to Evans who loses the ball (7" to the buzzer), Haralampidis sinks two free throws (94-91), last possesion OSFP: Olympia can't stop before the three-pointer Mpountouris who scores from 9-10 meters, overtime. 
Than, I'd like to know, weren't "charging" the two defensive fouls who brought Harisis and Markovic to the charity line, ah? 
Olympia missed only something, a "-kos" at the end of its name...

Peristeri  defeated Panathinaikos, Pelekanos played a great game scoring 19 point (and he ranked 28) and stopped Wilt Kutluay, the only dangerous Green this night. 4 consecutive wins, and now the playoff zone is not so far... without forgetting that the 1st goal wasn't not that, but to stay in A1. 

The last seconds of Irakleio - Aris Thessaloniki have been the essence of basketball: 7" before the end Gkagkaloudis sinks the three (+2 Aris), than buzzer beater of Bennerman (who scored 9 points in last 90") from beyond the arc... 

great, long live basketball.


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

Talking about Makedonikos, the Kozani team has just beaten Olympiakos in Athens by 85-87! Dimitris Papanikolaou was the man of the match scoring something like 28 points against the team that indirectly kicked him out of Pireus last summer. Even though the Macedonians were ahead by 19(!!!) points, 5 minutes before the end of the game, the incredible performance of OSFP's captain, Milan Tomic who scored 12 points within 4 minutes, allowed the Reds to make an incredible come back. Unfortunately for them, and fortunately for the Greens, Tomic missed the 3-pointer he attemted with the buzzer.



PS: I hope the Reds are satisfied with their decision last summer to replace "Pap" with Gianouzakos.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

Yes we are satisfied. Giannouzakos plays much better defense and he knows his role, Papanikolaou was an inconsistent defensive player and a bad shooter, I'm glad he's gone. I would rather have Sigalas instead of Giannouzakos but Kokkalis would never bring Sigalas back to the harbor (and Olympiakos fans will always hate him for that, Giorgos will always be our captain and we haven't won a title after he left the team). 
Tomic had a couple of good games this week against Olympia Larisa and Ljbljana but he shouldn't shoot all those threes (he had 4/10 three pointers against Makedonikos). The team was very tired after playing 3 games away from home and that's how Makedonikos beat us. Makedonikos is a very good team by the way.
Anyway I'm still very confident that we will surprise a lot of people this year and win either the Euroleague or the greek champioship. We have a lot of great veterans, we play great defense (Boudouris, De Miguel, Morales, Evans, Giannouzakos, Johnson and Harisis are all excellent defenders) and Subotic is one of the smartest coaches around and he has managed to build a competitive team (something we didn't have since 1997) with a low budget.


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

I agree about Subodic. He's a very capable coach and I respect him for that (even though I don't like him as a person). I don't think that OSFP can win the EL to be honest. It lacks the stability to do so. As for the greek league everything is possible this year. PAO is the favourite but OSFP has found the "key" of the Greens and they are able to threat them. I also agree that Sigalas would be a nice addition to the OSFP roster. BTW is he injured? He hasn't played in the last 5 games of Granada.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

I have no idea. I don't follow the spanish league. I wonder if any spaniards could inform us.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

I almost forgot to ask. Why don't you like Subotic as a person?
Is it because he played for Aris or for some other reason?


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## suspect (Sep 10, 2002)

> Boudouris, De Miguel, Morales, Evans, Giannouzakos, Johnson and Harisis are all excellent defenders)


Harissis and Evans excellent defenders???? IMO defence is their weakness
BTW 
1. I don't like SLobodan Sbudotic either..... He has a bad attitude and trashtalks a lot (remember him saying that his mother is originally Greek.. and that he has always been a hardcore Olympiakos supporter)
Lefteraki vale to pouraki sto kolaraki, pali i kitrinomavri mpouldoza tha sas nikisi fetos
2.Does somebody know when the Greek League Allstar Game will be??? The Dunk Competition should be good one this year with Evans, Buford and Tapoutos


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>qwertyu</b>!
> I almost forgot to ask. Why don't you like Subotic as a person?
> Is it because he played for Aris or for some other reason?


No, no. Even if I'm a PAOK fan I don't suffer from the "anti-skouliki" syndrome. I respected him as a player too. I just don't like the way he talks in press conferences (always finding excuses and thrashtalking as suspect said). He has also, many times, come into conflict with some of his players (his latest victim being Savrasenko). And furthermore, because of some rumors I've heard about his character being arrogant and selfish. But as I said I think his quite a good coach.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

Yes Harisis plays pretty good defense. Subotic always puts him on small point guards and he always finds a way to contain them. The only player that troubled him was Vujanic, but noone in Europe can stop Vujanic.
And that's why Ioannidis wants him on the national team as a third PG behind Diamantidis and Papaloukas (to play defense on short point guards). 
Evans also plays good defense when the coach asks him to. His athleticism helps him of course. He also picks up a lot of rebounds. 

Subotic mother is greek. I had heard her once on tv and she was speaking greek. Subotic is 50% greek, he's not another one of the many naturalized players that have come to Greece just to play basketball .
I don't remember him ever saying that he's an Olympiakos supporter. I mean why would he say that? That's just stupid.

As for the dunk contest one player I would like to see is Dimitris Diamantidis. He's quickly becoming my favorite greek player.

Zelena, Subotic was right about Savrasenko. Savrsenko wasn't doing anything for the team. He was being constantly outplayed by Demiguel and he was always complaining for minutes, even though he didn't deserve them. Morales is a much better short term solution for Olympiakos (mind you, I said short term) because he doesn't complain about playing time and he knows Subotic system. If we had gotten rid of Savrasenko earlier we might have kept Dorkofikis who could have brought some energy off the bench and some depth at the 4 and 5 where we are very thin.


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

Hey we are OT here! 


In order to return to the original topic of this thread......what do you think of this logo? Isn't it gross?


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## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

The All Star Game will be on Sunday, 30 of March, in Halkida. 
You can vote your teams too: http://www.esake.gr/allstar/all_star_votes.htm

About the Slum Dunk Contest, don't forget Pelekanos and Paylidis too... just an example of what the Peristeri's guard can do:


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## suspect (Sep 10, 2002)

Thanks for the link WP.
By the way i voted....

Greece
Diamantidis pg
Spanoulis pg 
Diamantopoulos sg
Pelekanos  sg
Fotsis sf
Kommatos sf
Dikoudis pf
Pavlidis pf
Papadopoulos c
Gliniadadakis c
Coaches
Milan Tomic and Franky Alvertis (well even though i can't stand both of them it would be funny to see them coach)

Willie Solomon
Jaka Lakovic
Buford
Evans
Nesby
Kutlay
Forrest
Johnson
Betts
Scott
Coaches: Subotic and Obradovic


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## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

Glyniadakis instead of Shortsianitis?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!


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## suspect (Sep 10, 2002)

Ooooppps... somehow i totally forgot him
:nonono: :nonono: :nonono:


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

Pelekanos is a really good player. Anyway my votes for the All Star game are

greek stars:

Diamantidis, Spanoulis
Diamantopoulos, Pelekanos
Kommatos, Papanikolaou
Dikoudis, Fotsis
Tsartsaris, Schortsianitis

coaches: Kakiousis, Pedoulakis

the rest of the world:

Solomon, Hart
Evans, Koch
Nesby, Markovic
DeMiguel, DeMarko Johnson
Hanlogden, Middleton

coaches: Subotic, Prelevic


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

I hadn't looked at your team when I voted, but I'm glad you put Spanoulis, Kommatos and Pelekanos on your team as well.
Especially for Spanoulis who is playing so great this year (I wonder if he will be drafted).
Pavlidis is a good choice, I completely forgot him.
Scott and Forest are good players as well.

I'm glad we have the same opinion on Tomic and Alvertis. You can't imagine how much I hate one-dimensional players like those two, that are only capable of shooting 3s and are praised by the media as if they were gods or something lol




> Originally posted by <b>suspect</b>!
> Thanks for the link WP.
> By the way i voted....
> 
> ...


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## suspect (Sep 10, 2002)

What the ****???? You are a Gavro and you can't stand Milan Tomic???:uhoh: 
Anyway i don't like Tomic, and Alvertis for the same reasons you mentioned and because I don't like their attitude... Tomic is constantly provoking opponents and does a lot of dirty stuff... Can you imagine that PAO fans consider Alvertis their leader... how the **** is a bench player a leader???

Anyway I tottally agree with you about Spanoulis.. IMO he's got all the tools to become one of the best European PG...He was never a super talent like Zisis and Tapoutos but i'm pretty sure he will become a better player than them (or is already).... This once again shows that if you don't work you won't improve..


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## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

I don't agree about Alvertis and Tomic. 
Alvertis overrated... why? Is he a player who can average 30 points per game? No, he's an obscure worker, a guy with normal stats but when he has his stats these hurt, a lot. 
I'd like him in my team when the weight and the temperature of the ball is too much for all the other players. A true winner, who doesn't appear so much. 
How many players would have scored all the buzzer-beaters or the decisive goals Alvertis has put in the basket in his career? How many times has he killed their opponents without appearing on court for 35 minutes, and waking up in the crucial time? 

Tomic probably is not the best mate for a beer, and I guess he's not at all beloved by the supporters of any team that is not Olympiakos... but he's someone who gives strong nature to his team, a fighter, even if is not a superstar. 
They both are good additions for their team, and it's not a casuality they are members of Panathinaikos and Olympiakos, two of the best European teams of last decade. 

take care


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

Hey, any Spaniards out there...can you please tell me why Estuduantes has changed their colours, from the traditional Yellow-blue to Red? This has been for the last couple of years (maybe more), Why is that? Does it have to do with their Sponsors (Adecco?). If that's the case why hasn't ASVEL changed their colours too? (they share the same sponsors). 

Just being curious.

As for Alvertis and Tomic...what can I say? 

It is true that Alvertis is one of the few players that take the responsibility at the last minutes and can kill everybody within a few seconds. Just check his contribution in the last minutes of every major game. He is a pure "tool". The worst thing you can do is underestimate him. As for his character..............well, that' s an entirely different story......

Tomic? I don't know what kind of guy he is (he keeps a low profile though which I repsect) but as a player I ABSOLUTELY HATE HIM. That's because he had killed, several times, the teams I was supporting. Also I have to confess that being a little bit Anti-Gavros (sorry *"qwe"* but I can't help it!) the teams that I supported included all the teams that OSFP was playing against (excluding EL matches). 

I would love to have him in my team but as far as he plays for OSFP my memories of him will stay...painful. 

It must be true though that he plays dirty. Kinda like Stockton used to do (and still does).


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

hahaha that's ok Zelena, no problem. You wouldn't be a real Paok fan if you didn't hate us gavrous  

As for Tomic, I can't say I hate him. In the early-mid 90's he was our favorite player but when the good team we had then fell apart Tomic didn't really become the leader we thought he would be. 
All he did for many years (especially when Ivkovic was the coach) was to shoot the ball everytime he got it in his hands and he stopped playing defense (we usually play 4 against 5 when we are defending and Tomic is on the court).
Subotic has limited his playing time now and uses him as a shooter, which is the only thing he's good for. He can be a helpful player if he doesn't try to become the hero.

Alvertis is a good player but I can't stand how the greek media always overrate him. He is a good player, but he's soft.
I don't really think Panathinaikos fans are fond of Alvertis.
I remember a few years ago there was an internet poll that asked who should leave the team (Radja, Scott, Alvertis, Subotic, Economou) and Alvertis and Economou had recieved the most votes!! And I remember Subotic who was Panathinaikos coach had to put them on the bench because the fans were booing them whenever they played!!


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>qwertyu</b>!
> hahaha that's ok Zelena, no problem. You wouldn't be a real Paok fan if you didn't hate us gavrous
> 
> As for Tomic, I can't say I hate him. In the early-mid 90's he was our favorite player but when the good team we had then fell apart Tomic didn't really become the leader we thought he would be.
> ...


Yeah, that's true, even though my aversion towards OSFP doesn't stem from my PAOKtzidika feelings. And to return to the original topic of this thread, I should say that in part my loathe of OFSP has to do with the colours of the team.... 

As for Tomic...............I Know that he's really cunning. He does a good job away from the ball without being noticed. It's not a coincidence that his greak name is Giannakopoulos! (Even-if-I-am-alone-in-the-penalty-area-I-have-to-fall-to-fool-the-ref) 

No hard feelings please!:laugh:


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## suspect (Sep 10, 2002)

> Especially for Spanoulis who is playing so great this year (I wonder if he will be drafted).


I dunno... However I do remember when I was in Greece last summer that Toronto Raptors scout Jim Kelley liked him a lot in the European Under 20 championship and that he said that he is one of the best Euro PG prospects and that they have to keep an eye on him.. Apparently he is in Greece to check him out... (he is there for Dikoudis and Diamantidis who they invited him to their summer camp as well)... I don't think Spanoulis will get drafted this year though... next year if he improves a little bit more.....It will hurt his stock though that he doesn't play for a team that participates in Euroleague...


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>suspect</b>!
> 
> I dunno... However I do remember when I was in Greece last summer that Toronto Raptors scout Jim Kelley liked him a lot in the European Under 20 championship and that he said that he is one of the best Euro PG prospects and that they have to keep an eye on him.. Apparently he is in Greece to check him out... (he is there for Dikoudis and Diamantidis who they invited him to their summer camp as well)... I don't think Spanoulis will get drafted this year though... next year if he improves a little bit more.....It will hurt his stock though that he doesn't play for a team that participates in Euroleague...


About Spanoulis. I don't think he has chances of being drafted. Even if he was twice as good as he is now he still wouldn't have much chances (at least at the first round). The States have plenty of play-makers. The only reason the NBA is looking towards Europe is for the big guys. If you check the drafts of the past 4-5 years, almost all the europeans that have being picked were Centers or PFs. All the small guys that have been selected didn't stay for long (with a couple of exceptions) or never actually made it to the NBA. 

What about Dikoudis? I heard that the Raptors have called him to join them (even now!!) as he has some financial problems with AEK. But I don't think there will be any advance on that issue as he has recently extended his contract with the "eagles".

Do you think Sofoklis will be selected in an early pick? I personally don't. I think he will end up, as all the rest of the greek draftees of the past, being selected at the second half of the first round. It's all about how his managers will promote him.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

I always thought Spanoulis was more talented than Zisis and Tapoutos. I also thought Misiakos was better than those two. I'm still waiting to see if Misiakos will get a chance to play.

I wasn't talking necessarily about this year draft for Spanoulis. Perhaps in 2004, or even in 2005.
There have been plenty of european guards in the draft the last few years. Jaric, Giricek, Ginobili, Sesar, Navarro etc.
I think that if Spanoulis plays for the NT this summer the NBA will take a better look at him.

As for Dikoudis, I don't think he's the kind of guy that would leave AEK in the middle of the season. But I'm sure he will try to play in the NBA next year, even if he doesn't get a guaranteed contract.
He's a very confident player and he has said many times that playing in the NBA is his biggest dream.

I don't think Sofoklis will be drafted very high. He's not very tall. He appears to be shorter than his teammate Pavlidis. He has a very strong and agile body, but I really don't know right now if he could be a lottery pick. But of course he's only 17 years old, so it might be a little premature for him to declare for the draft. We'll see.


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## suspect (Sep 10, 2002)

He won't be eligible for the 2005 NBA draft because he will be 23 then...


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

What an extraordinary matchday that was in the Greek league.

Olympiakos loses second consecutive game, this time from from Irakleio (Crete Island), with a 3-pointer by Markis with 11 sec to go. (80-79)

AEK escapes from Iraklis thanks to a buzzer-beater from Tapoutos. (74-75)

PAO losses from Maroussi with the unbelievable score of 57-50!

Panionios beats Makedonikos in Kozani (70-73) having Diamantopoulos scoring 31 points including a 3-pointer from the mid-court,

PAOK beats Aris (no comments on that 
   ) the latter playing without W. Solomon which affected them a lot. (81-70)

Also Ionikos beats Near East 82-89(and relegates them)
Peristeri beats easily Olympia 92-67 and also (unfortunately) ensures their relegation.

The greek league has become more interesting than ever.


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## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

Absolutely true. There's a fantastic fight for the 5th and 6th place now, with 7 teams separated only by a victory, and Aris too without Will Solomon could risk something. 
With eight match-days (Aris is 4th). 
Aris 11-7 
Marousi 9-9 
Makedonikos 9-9 
PAOK 9-9 
Peristeri 8-10
Ionikos 8-10 
Panionios 8-10 
Iraklis 8-10 

Watching the calendar, it would be enough realistic to have this situation at the end of the regular season: 
4. Aris 15-11 
5. Marousi 14-12 
5. Makedonikos 14-12 
5. Panionios 14-12 
8. PAOK 12-14 
9. Peristeri 11-15 
10. Ionikos 10-16 
10. Iraklis 10-16 

Three teams for the 5th and 6th place. In this case, Makedonikos would be 5th and Panionios 6th, with Marousi out of the playoff. 
These are the results between the three clubs: 
Marousi - Makedonikos 61-58, 85-93 
Marousi - Panionios 87-79, 79-104 
Panionios - Makedonikos 91-110, 73-70

Makedonikos 2-2 331-310 +21
Panionios 2-2 347-346 +1 
Marousi 2-2 312-334 -22


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

I think it's a shame that Olympia Larisa will be relegated.
They have one of the few modern arenas in Greece and it's always full with fans.
I think teams like Larisa should not be relegated, they make the league more competitive and it's much better for the league to have teams from different cities and not just from Athens and Thesaloniki.


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

Talking about Olympia Larissa, here it is their new logo. 

*MAN* these people have no taste. No imagination at all. A new logo illustrating a basketball with the name of the team superimposed on it. Bleah! Even the old one was better. Both Makedonikos' and Olympia's new logos suck. An they could have had such cool logos, given the name they have and the regions they represent........ :nonono:


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