# Skiles speaks again



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

> Bulls coach Scott Skiles didn't hesitate to lay blame for the incident on former Bull Ron Artest, who ignited the scene with a hard foul on Detroit center Ben Wallace.
> 
> "Why are you fouling a guy that hard when you're up by 15 with less than a minute to go?" Skiles said. "That's where it starts is - with that foul right there, which just in my opinion should be automatic, whistle-blowing ejection. Gone.
> 
> "I think there's a certain kind of player and a certain element in our league that needs to be eliminated, period. When you have a guy (Latrell Sprewell) commenting about how 'I've got to feed my family' when he's making $14 million; and a guy (Artest) wants a month off so he can rest for his album promotions or whatever, that kind of element just needs to be eliminated from the league."


So is it play hard for 48 minutes, or when you think you are up by enough let up?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> So is it play hard for 48 minutes, or when you think you are up by enough let up?


I hope Artest, or Spree, gets a chance to clock Skiles. Id pay their fine

My favorite part of Skiles BS, is he cries for players who work hard but then wants to "eliminate" certain players in the NBA, who play hard. No one in the league goes harder then Artest or Spree. But now that they say some dumb things, things which may have been taken out of context, Skiles has to jump in and bash them? That little hypocrite. I wonder what he would say if Kirk said he needed a week off to go fly fishing or whatever Kirk does. He probably would allow it


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

I just hope it's a coincidence that Skiles chose such a racially-charged phrase in this discussion. What is "that element", Scott?

I've said it before and I'll say it again until he's gone. Skiles is an amateur. Rlucas nailed another one -- if more of our players played as hard as Spree and Artest, hell, we might actually have a win by now. A professional coach looks at the bottom line and does his best to deal with all the idiosyncracies and disparate personalities. Phil Jackson epitomized and perfected this approach.

Skiles needs to step down and get himself to a high school or Div III program, where molding young minds and playing the right way is actually relevant. This sort of comment is embarrassingly revealing and shows how ill-suited he is for the pro game.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

Taking the emotionalism out of this for a moment, and thinking in terms of what's best for the game, I think Skiles has a point.

Four things need to happen. Skiles just focussed on one of them. There is a thug element in the league that needs to be either eliminated totally or placed on such a short leash that incidents like what took place in Detroit never happen again. Artest, Jackson and O'Neal acted like gangsters and they should be treated like citizens who broke the law, period.

Game officials need to collectively grow a pair (yes, that includes Violet Palmer as well) and take control of each game the moment teams come out on the floor for pregame warmups. Think what you will of Joe Crawford, but in my mind he's the only game official that I feel meets that standard.

Ownership is perhaps more to blame than anyone else. Stern expresses outrage and calls the incident repulsive. But get him alone for a moment and ask him if he's surprised it happened and if he's truthful he'll admit he knew the possibility existed all along. The league has long been guilty of promoting individualism over the actual sport itself. They've tolerated outrageous behavior for years. They've even attempted to cover up their "stars" indescretions and anti-social behavior by trying to pay off those citizens who have been offended or victimized. They've allowed fan behavior at games to become more and more outrageous and out of control. Those of you who have watched games from seats near the teams' benches know exactly what I mean.

And while we're at it, lets not absolve the players union either, who do absolutely nothing to police their own membership. Time for the union to do more than figure out new ways to line their own pockets.

What happened in Detroit on Friday was inevitable. Greed has forced every single person who has the power to prevent such tragedies to turn a blind eye to symptoms that have been on display for quite a while.

Forget about Skiles for a moment and focus on the big picture. What happened Friday could happen again unless the right people get their priorities straight and start to take appropriate and premptive action. The next time things could get much worse. Someone could die. And that's what should be on everyone's minds from this pioint on.


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

You shouldn't go after Skiles on this. Whether he is a good coach or the right coach for the Bulls is another matter. There is no way to justify Artest's late foul as just playing hard. You need some sense of the situation and doing that while up by 15 with less than a minute leftllace had done something earlier to Indiana in that game ( which I don't know). Having said that Wallace is the one who really started the problem because he didn't need to do that to Artest.

All I'm saying is attack Skiles appropriately and I don't believe he was wrong in his statement.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Sprewell's "Why would I want to help them (Minnesota) win a title?" he asked. "They're not doing anything for me. I'm at risk. I have a lot of risk here. I got my family to feed. Anything could happen." comment was over the top selfishness. Me, me, me - the team and the game be damned.

Artest wanting a couple months off at the beginning of the season to attend to outside business is an example of bizarre self-absorption.

I don't want to get rid of Sprewell or Artest, but I agree with Skiles that the league would be better off if this sort of attitude was eliminated.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> Taking the emotionalism out of this for a moment, and thinking in terms of what's best for the game, I think Skiles has a point.
> 
> Four things need to happen. Skiles just focussed on one of them. There is a thug element in the league that needs to be either eliminated totally or placed on such a short leash that incidents like what took place in Detroit never happen again. Artest, Jackson and O'Neal acted like gangsters and they should be treated like citizens who broke the law, period.
> ...


Kismet, do the names Jim Loscutoff and Cliff Hagan ring any bells (pun intended)?

The games are far safer now than they were in days past. Guys like Loscutoff and Hagan took advantage of no instant replay (or TV at all) and two-man officiating crews and would literally punch opponents in the face when the opportunity presented itself. Read Terry Pluto's "Loose Balls" (the greatest basketball book ever) for some stories about the old ABA: Guys like Warren Jabali and John Brisker would get into full-on, put-a-guy-in-the-hospital fistfights during games, and opposing coaches would give their players a $500 bounty for whoever took out Brisker and Jabali.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of the upset over this "thug" element has more to do with race and the players' salaries than it does any TRUE danger on the court during games. I don't think we need to turn the sport on its head simply because the Palace failed to provide an appropriate level of security for an NBA game.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

Regradless of what skiles does or does not think IMHO Artest is the major person at fault here. Bottom line is his foul on wallance was a cheap shot (mind you artest is my favorate player in the NBA a if i had my way he would still be a bull) whether it was at the end of the game or the beginning.

Sam Smith (who is a bball hack IMO) has a great article to read today. What it basicaaly says is artest has a serious problem and has had this problem for years. He is nuts and needs profession help. And i mean that in the best and clinic way. He has a anger problem that for his own good he needs to fix.

He was all but goating the fans by lying on the table ( and this in no way excusses the behavior of some fans). Then he jumps into the crowd and starts hitting some random fan who is just standing there drinking a beer. Mind you he has a beer in his hand and it should have been obvious that he did not throw a beer at artest. What artest did was take out his frustration on the first person in could. So lets not blame skiles for saying what is obvious. Ronny needs to sit down, work out what is eatting him up inside, and move on. That is if did is not suspended for the rest of the year, that IMO is what is going to happen.

david


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

That Skiles is a knucklehead because championship caliber teams take those fouls .This guy is so much of a hypocrite its unbelievable .

Lets see what else he had to say 



> Also Friday, forward Tyson Chandler was yanked, benched and limited to just 13 playing minutes for drawing a technical foul when he slammed the backboard after a slam dunk. But Skiles said all is well after he told Chandler his act was a no-no.
> 
> ''That's just not an appropriate play,'' Skiles said. ''I don't want our team to be viewed as a team that's dunking the ball and slapping the backboard and making those kind of plays.
> 
> * ''So I chose to use a smaller lineup to try to get us back into the game* As a team, we're just not helping each other enough defensively and we're not protecting the basket well enough, and all our players must take responsibility for that.''


http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull21.html

We were still very much in the game at that point after back to back dunks by Tyson but he took Tyson out with it being a two point game and the Nuggets outscored us 18 -9 GAME OVER.

It seems to me that the Bulls number priority seems to be trying to rid the league of the "urban element" that is certainly all thats wrong with the league based on some of the comments they have made instead of trying to win basketball games .

If slapping the backboard and getting a tech keeps the team on edge enough that it can get you your first road win on this trip in 6 years then you do it.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> Kismet, do the names Jim Loscutoff and Cliff Hagan ring any bells (pun intended)?
> ...


LOL! Scott, you're talking to a guy who never missed a home game of the New Orleans Buccaneers back in '68 when they used my college gym as their home court. Believe me, I saw plenty of rough stuff from guys like Jabali and Doug Moe who made sure no harm came to their hot headed star and teammate, Rick Barry. I saw Connie Hawkins get the absolute crap knocked out of him for four straight quarters. Your mention of the old ABA sure brings back memories! I'll have to pick up that book soon!

As a long time Bulls fan I've seen Jerry Sloan square off with Wilt...I saw Norm Van Lier pick up a court side seat and throw it at Sidney Wicks! Trust me, I've seen plenty of rough stuff over the years.

But this was different. The real violence took place in the stands and involved fans. Its one thing to see players or even teams go after one another. Its quite different when it directly involves fans.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

this is different for sure. Violence has always been in the NBa. Hard fouls and all. The fans throwing things at the players and then the players jumpinging into the stands, that IS the difference. We cannot encourage this is anyway or sugar coat this. This is not Skiles fault. He spoke up. Nothing wrong with that. 

Stern has to suspend the players who went into the stands. He has to! Cannot allow violence between fans and players no matter who started it. 

The fans who did this need to be arrested and banned from Piston games. 

I have seen a lot of basketball down through the years but I have never seen anything like what happened on Friday night. Never. 

As for Artest hard foul on Wallace, he wasn't going for the ball and hit him from the back. That is what Wallace was upset about. I am all for hard fouls, but not cheap shots. 

There is an individualism in the NBA that needs to be addressed. 

As for the ABA... I followed that as much as I did the NBA. I lived in Seymour, Indiana which is about 1/2 half way between Indy and Louisville. I got to see both the Colonels and the Pacers on TV and in person many times. I loved the run and gun, red white and blue, three point shooting style of the game! Brings back memories!


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## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

The ironic aspect of Skiles' statements are that if he is really serious about getting rid of "that element," one of the players that probably would be first to go would be one of his favorites - Andres Nocioni. He certainly has had incidents far worse than the foul on O'Neal at the end of the Pacers/Pistons game.

Also, I really cringed when I heard him say this. Right now, he has to be in a delicate battle with his players to keep their respect. Going on a tirade against "that element" is not going to help his cause.

And one other unrelated thing. I hope that David Stern takes responsibility for some of this with the way fans near the court have been allowed to act. If he does not, I fear that any lockout next season runs the risk of lasting a lot longer than it would otherwise. The players deserve strict punishment, but if Stern is smart he will find some way to lay some blame at his own feet and also punish Detroit in some meaningful way (besides Wallace's suspension).

There have always been out-of-control players like Ron Artest and there always will be. The league has a responsibility to minimize the possibilities of something like this incident occurring - by severely punishing players who act out and by putting some limits on the behavior of fans at games. Historically he has done a good job with the former and a horrible job with the latter.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

The initial skirmish wasn't all that bad, with Artest retreating to the scorer's table and lying atop it after Wallace sent him reeling backward. 

But when a fan tossed a cup at Artest, he stormed into the stands, throwing punches as he climbed over seats. 

*"He was on top of me, pummeling me," fan Mike Ryan of Clarkston said. "He asked me, 'Did you do it? I said, 'No, man. No!"'*

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3179442

Wow, if this is true, then Artest should be looking at criminal charges. Apparently he had no idea who threw the cup at him. He was going to take it out on whoever he could get his hands on. Artest claimed he acted in self defense. How can it be self defense when he doesn't know who threw the cup in the first place and apparently just used the incident to attack anyone who happened to be in the vicinity? Again, if this is a true and accurate accounting, Artest's actions are indefensable.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> So is it play hard for 48 minutes, or when you think you are up by enough let up?


there is a difference between playing hard and playing like YOU HAVE A BRAIN THE SIZE OF A PEA.

ben wallace was wrong. ron artest was wrong. J.O. was wrong. sjax was really wrong. the fans were wrong. 

skiles is not. don't let your hate cloud what is really going on here.

(and you have some nerve coming on this forum and starting this thread, imo. i mean, what would hubie say?)


i applaud skiles for saying this. and this thread is an misguided attempt to take his words out of the context in which they were intended to further an agenda. 

(and believe me, i am VERY critical of skiles and what he says to the press about our team - but i am in agreement with him here, sorry boys)

what happened in detroit friday night was a disgraceful display of machismo gone awry. what artest did was inexcusable, no matter how much that fan might have deserved it. heck, they were all fools. and stephen jackson is in some places being lauded as a good teammate? give me a break. he and ron and jermaine LET THEIR TEAM DOWN by conducting themselves like spoiled children and now the pacers will pay dearly. 

tiny dick syndrome could cost them their season.


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## badfish (Feb 4, 2003)

"I think there's a certain kind of player and a certain element in our league that needs to be eliminated, period. When you have a guy (Latrell Sprewell) commenting about how 'I've got to feed my family' when he's making $14 million; and a guy (Artest) wants a month off so he can rest for his album promotions or whatever, that kind of element just needs to be eliminated from the league."






> Originally posted by <b>Dan Rosenbaum</b>!
> The ironic aspect of Skiles' statements are that if he is really serious about getting rid of "that element," one of the players that probably would be first to go would be one of his favorites - Andres Nocioni. He certainly has had incidents far worse than the foul on O'Neal at the end of the Pacers/Pistons game.
> 
> 
> ...


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

In addition to all this other stuff, which I agree with, how about the league roll back the "right" of fans to be abusive ignorant *****s while we're at it.

Make a bit more of a show and take seriously the idea of kicking abusive fans out and not letting them back in?

----------------

As an aside, Skiles sometimes seems to care more about "the league" than his team. He had a similar comment about benching Tyson, that he didn't like this kind of thing "in the league". I wish he'd solely worry about his team and not about the league as a whole.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dan Rosenbaum</b>!
> The ironic aspect of Skiles' statements are that if he is really serious about getting rid of "that element," one of the players that probably would be first to go would be one of his favorites - Andres Nocioni. He certainly has had incidents far worse than the foul on O'Neal at the end of the Pacers/Pistons game.
> 
> Also, I really cringed when I heard him say this. Right now, he has to be in a delicate battle with his players to keep their respect. Going on a tirade against "that element" is not going to help his cause.


dan, i have to agree with badfish on this one too. what part of andres nocioni and how he conducts himself both on court and off is similar to ron asking for time off to promote his off court stuff. or latrell saying he needs more than $14 million to "feed his family". 

andres' wife just had a baby a continent away and he didn't even ask to have time off to go tend to her.

this is just bias against skiles being misdirected. 

get a clue people.


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## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> I just hope it's a coincidence that Skiles chose such a racially-charged phrase in this discussion. What is "that element", Scott?
> 
> I've said it before and I'll say it again until he's gone. Skiles is an amateur. Rlucas nailed another one -- if more of our players played as hard as Spree and Artest, hell, we might actually have a win by now. A professional coach looks at the bottom line and does his best to deal with all the idiosyncracies and disparate personalities. Phil Jackson epitomized and perfected this approach.
> ...


Please. There are definitely still a lot of racism or racial injustices going around in this great nation, but to accuse Skiles of making racially motivated comments is not only ridiculous, but bordering on racism in and of itself. 

Personally, I agree with Skiles to some extent. The NBA has no integrity. Players are more selfish than ever, yet they're making two-to-three times as much as their predecessors who were 10 times better. NBA these days are lazy and more concerned with extra-ciricular activities then their trade. Very few listen to their coaches or veteran leaders and very few care about the image of their organization. Make no mistake, this is not a white or black thing, this is a systemic problem that crosses all racial lines. Whites are just as guilty as blacks. 

As far as the indicent itself, there's a difference between playing hard for 48 minutes and being stupid and fouling someone hard with 15 secs to go. This case is plain and simple. Artest should have been ejected and suspended for a game and the Piston fans should have the right to boo and heckel, but do not have the right to throw stuff at the players. I don't fault Artest for going up into the stands and pummelling the fan who threw the bottle of water at him. He was attacked and he has the right to retaliate, in my opinion.

That's my take.

One last thing ... If the Bulls were 6-0, we'd be praising Skiles for his comments. But now that they're 0-6, we want people to punch him.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!
> 
> 
> Please. There are definitely still a lot of racism or racial injustices going around in this great nation, but to accuse Skiles of making racially motivated comments is not only ridiculous, but bordering on racism in and of itself.
> ...


No, it sounds pretty racist when Skiles is talking about wanting to change the whole league's culture instead of viewing it as some kind of isolated incident unaffected by culture like they would probably do if the incident was started by some white guys.


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## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> No, it sounds pretty racist when Skiles is talking about wanting to change the whole league's culture instead of viewing it as some kind of isolated incident unaffected by culture like they would probably do if the incident was started by some white guys.


How is that racism? You might want to look up the definition of racism in the dictionary. Skiles definitely made a generalization based on a couple of select incidents which happened to involve a couple of black players. In no way shape or form is that racism.


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## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> dan, i have to agree with badfish on this one too. what part of andres nocioni and how he conducts himself both on court and off is similar to ron asking for time off to promote his off court stuff. or latrell saying he needs more than $14 million to "feed his family".
> 
> andres' wife just had a baby a continent away and he didn't even ask to have time off to go tend to her.
> ...


You may not realize this, but Skiles was born in my hometown of La Porte, Indiana. I remember him watching him play in high school. So I have lots of reasons to be biased in favor of Skiles.

If the "that element" comment was only referring to Sprewell's comments and Artest asking for time off, then yes you are right. But if it was also referring to players who commit cheap shots, then Nocioni certainly stands a good chance of being one of the guys pretty high up on that list.

I like how Nocioni plays and his dedication to the game, but Skiles was not overly precise in his comments. Given that these comments were brought up in the context of the Pacers/Piston melee, it is not too far of a leap to suggest that these comments may apply to Nocioni - even though I am sure Skiles in no way had Nocioni in mind when he made the comments.


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## Ariel (Oct 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dan Rosenbaum</b>!
> The ironic aspect of Skiles' statements are that if he is really serious about getting rid of "that element," one of the players that probably would be first to go would be one of his favorites - Andres Nocioni. He certainly has had incidents far worse than the foul on O'Neal at the end of the Pacers/Pistons game.
> b with the former and a horrible job with the latter.


really? please, enlighten me...
when has Nocioni complained about not being able to feed his family while collecting a $ 14 million check?
when has he punched a fan?
when has he asked for some time off to run his own record label?
when was he arrested for having "a friend" put pot on his luggage?
when was he arrested for being involved in dog fights and animal cruelty?
or for that matter, when has he punched a rival in the face (ala Marbury vs Wolkowisky in the olympics), or stepped on a rival down (ala Jermaine O'Neal vs Scola in the world championships)?

he might play too hard (is there is such a thing)... he might make a hard foul, yes... but boy there is a loooong way to go before getting there ... and i don't think it's intensity that gets you there... or do you think that Artest was trying to improve his chances of winning by fouling Wallace the way he did... please...

reread this statement:
"I think there's a certain kind of player and a certain element in our league that needs to be eliminated, period. When you have a guy (Latrell Sprewell) commenting about how 'I've got to feed my family' when he's making $14 million; and a guy (Artest) wants a month off so he can rest for his album promotions or whatever, that kind of element just needs to be eliminated from the league."

though i don't post often, i read ALL posts on a daily basis, so i am familiar with you all, thats why it surprised me to read this comming from you, who i consider to be an intelligent poster (and not trying to knock on anybody, but there are less and less of them...) so please think again.... do you still think Nocioni qualifies?


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!
> 
> 
> How is that racism? You might want to look up the definition of racism in the dictionary. Skiles definitely made a generalization based on a couple of select incidents which happened to involve a couple of black players. In no way shape or form is that racism.


It's not cross-burning, lynching racism, but more subtle and hidden in his setting up of certain standards and rules.


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## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

One other thing about the "racism" charges. Racism is often a matter of perception. And there are going to be people, perhaps even some of Skiles' own players, who perceive Skiles' comments as racist? If so, does that make Skiles a racist? No, but if some of his players start to perceive him that way, then it makes his job all the more difficult.

That is why I probably would have advised Skiles during this very delicate part of the season to steer clear of such comments.


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## Qwst25 (Apr 24, 2004)

I'd like to see Stern take a page out of the Football rule book, and treat technicals like yellow cards. After a certain amount of technicals the player would get suspended for a game. This would help get rid of some of the cheap shots, and hopefuly bring a little more order to the games.


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## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ariel</b>!
> really? please, enlighten me...
> when has Nocioni complained about not being able to feed his family while collecting a $ 14 million check?
> when has he punched a fan?
> ...


Hopefully, my previous post helps explain what I was thinking. I really don' t think we differ that much in our thinking. I do think that Artest and Nocioni share an intensity during the game that lends itself to something like the foul at the end of the Pacers/Pistons game. But that is where the two differ. Nocioni has never shown any tendencies towards the bizarre extra-cirricular behavior that Artest has demonstrated time and time again. I cannot imagine Nocioni going up into the stands after a fan. But Skiles statements were so imprecise that they left themselves open to a whole variety of interpretations. That was probably my bigger point.


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## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> It's not cross-burning, lynching racism, but more subtle and hidden in his setting up of certain standards and rules.


I don't understand. Perhaps I missed something. Did Skiles in any way, shape, or form make a direct inference or imply that his use of the term "element" refer to black players. To me it sounded like he was referring to players who don't carry themselves in a professional manner. Again, I don't see this as a black or white issue and I didn't hear Skiles say or imply otherwise, as well.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dan Rosenbaum</b>!
> One other thing about the "racism" charges. Racism is often a matter of perception. And there are going to be people, perhaps even some of Skiles' own players, who perceive Skiles' comments as racist? If so, does that make Skiles a racist? No, but if some of his players start to perceive him that way, then it makes his job all the more difficult.
> 
> That is why I probably would have advised Skiles during this very delicate part of the season to steer clear of such comments.


No, it's something definitely in there. 

He thinks that there is something wrong with the culture of the NBA which just so happens to be dominated by black people. Well, there probably are, but they act like these people in the NBA invented selfishness. 

Compare that to oh let's say Tim McVeigh.

Did anyone blame white culture ?


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## Ariel (Oct 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dan Rosenbaum</b>!
> 
> Hopefully, my previous post helps explain what I was thinking. I really don' t think we differ that much in our thinking. I do think that Artest and Nocioni share an intensity during the game that lends itself to something like the foul at the end of the Pacers/Pistons game. But that is where the two differ. Nocioni has never shown any tendencies towards the bizarre extra-cirricular behavior that Artest has demonstrated time and time again. I cannot imagine Nocioni going up into the stands after a fan. But Skiles statements were so imprecise that they left themselves open to a whole variety of interpretations. That was probably my bigger point.


your second post just came while i was writting my own, so i didn't read it on time, but yes, i agree with the general idea of your two latest posts


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

I'm not quite sure I see these comments as racist, but the thought that race may play a role in the franchise's decisions has crossed my mind: 

Seeing a starting line-up with Piatkowski instead of Griffin and Nocioni instead of Deng has forced the issue. Let me be clear, I am not even implying that there are any ill-elemnts at play here, only that the thought that racism may play a role has crossed my mind. Though, I do not agree with these decisions, their are supportable basketball reasons for starting the two (and Noc is just fairer skinned, anyways). 

These type of comments do nothing to help me dismiss the idea. I wonder if the players feel the same way?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Seems to me there were no easy layups for the championship bulls when they played against Detroit or the Knicks.

Guys play hard and sometimes go a little overboard. That's what I saw until the fight escalated to the point where the fans were involved.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>such sweet thunder</b>!
> I'm not quite sure I see these comments as racist, but the thought that race may play a role in the franchise's decisions has crossed my mind:
> 
> Seeing a starting line-up with Piatkowski instead of Griffin and Nocioni instead of Deng has forced the issue. Let me be clear, I am not even implying that there are any ill-elemnts at play here, only that the thought that racism may play a role has crossed my mind. Though, I do not agree with these decisions, their are supportable basketball reasons for starting the two (and Noc is just fairer skinned, anyways).
> ...


I agree with this, but I don't view Skiles as someone malicious and motivated by racism or anything. If anything he's just appeared to be very culuturally inflexible. In that inflexibility can lie some kind of racism.


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## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> No, it's something definitely in there.
> 
> ...


You're right in saying that there is a double-standard when it comes to associating crime with race. It's incorrect and wrong to do so. Crime is performed by criminals, not by the color of someone's skin. I agree that a fair portion of white America tends to stereotype blacks as having a criminal natural, but do not make those gaping generalizations or stereotypes when it comes to crimes committed by white. Some of the most henous crimes in US history were committed by white men, yet you don't hear people stereotyping white men as they do black men. 

However, none of this relates to the incident at hand. The culture of the NBA has deterioated. That is indisputable. I'm not sure that the racial mix in the NBA has changed all that significantly in the last 10-15 years. So to say that the culture of the NBA is being sacraficed because of today's "element" (not implying anything racial) is a true and bold statement.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>such sweet thunder</b>!
> I'm not quite sure I see these comments as racist, but the thought that race may play a role in the franchise's decisions has crossed my mind:
> 
> Seeing a starting line-up with Piatkowski instead of Griffin and Nocioni instead of Deng has forced the issue. Let me be clear, I am not even implying that there are any ill-elemnts at play here, only that the thought that racism may play a role has crossed my mind. Though, I do not agree with these decisions, their are supportable basketball reasons for starting the two (and Noc is just fairer skinned, anyways).
> ...


That might be true what you say about perception, but it's also an intellectual dead end.

I mean, if you let that kind of thinking creep in, do you at some point decide that, even if one guy is somewhat better than another, you should start the inferior guy because it will "alleviate the perception"?

I think if you get to the point where you start thinking like that, you're pretty much screwed in any case


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't understand. Perhaps I missed something. Did Skiles in any way, shape, or form make a direct inference or imply that his use of the term "element" refer to black players. To me it sounded like he was referring to players who don't carry themselves in a professional manner. Again, I don't see this as a black or white issue and I didn't hear Skiles say or imply otherwise, as well.


hmmm yes he did. He went out of his way to bash 2 black players, one that was about a 1000 miles away from Detroit no less, without really knowing the facts or the players.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> I agree with this, but I don't view Skiles as someone malicious and motivated by racism or anything. If anything he's just appeared to be very culuturally inflexible. In that inflexibility can lie some kind of racism.


What do you expect? He supported George Bush, the same guy whose brother disqualified 100s of thousands of black votes in florida so his brother could win. There is clearly a double standard.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!
> 
> 
> You're right in saying that there is a double-standard when it comes to associating crime with race. It's incorrect and wrong to do so. Crime is performed by criminals, not by the color of someone's skin. I agree that a fair portion of white America tends to stereotype blacks as having a criminal natural, but do not make those gaping generalizations or stereotypes when it comes to crimes committed by white. Some of the most henous crimes in US history were committed by white men, yet you don't hear people stereotyping white men as they do black men.
> ...


I know this has dragged on and people want it to be over, but I think this is something pretty important.

When I brought up the Tim McVeigh thing, I was trying to get at the point that a whole culture is blamed if it's a black guy, but if it's a white guy, no one really harps on him being a military guy in rural America or anything. When we talk about culture, race usually is embedded in it. For example, hip-hop culture is associated with black and Hispanic people. And it received a lot of the blame from posters for Team USAs performance on the board this past summer.

So, no one blames culture or the absence of certain characteristics were it to be Steve Nash (who's an outsider on his own for being so rabidly anti-war, and is accordingly dismissed as a Canadian). Skiles like most of this board didn't treat the actions of these players as some kind of isolated incident like he probably would've done had it been started by Jason Williams. 

It's been like this, as we've seen in the boards:

If they were white guys fighting, they'd be dismissed as weirdos. Things will just remain as they are because they are just weirdos. Brad Miller, Steve Nash = nuts. Steve Nash is a communist.

But since the perpetrators of the incident are black and most of the NBA is black which is very different from the actual USA, something obviously needs to be changed in culture.


----------



## badfish (Feb 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> What do you expect? He supported George Bush, the same guy whose brother disqualified 100s of thousands of black votes in florida so his brother could win. There is clearly a double standard.


Dogma at its finest. :sigh: 

Anyways, FWIW I agree with the poster that said Skiles opening his mouth on this issue isn't going to do anything to bridge the ever-widening gap between he and his players. Right or wrong, this is a players' league and Skiles seems to be rebelling against that. Meanwhile, our team is going down in flames.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Artest just wanted to embarrass, Ben Wallace by getting a monster block, or revenge for the block Tayshaun Prince did in the playoffs. Anyone who has actually played basketball before is that if you miss the block, then your gonna hit the other guy hard in the back or head.


----------



## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> hmmm yes he did. He went out of his way to bash 2 black players, one that was about a 1000 miles away from Detroit no less, without really knowing the facts or the players.


He bashed two players, both of whom happened to be black. 

Although it is a different sport, remember the scorn and ridicule directed at ex-Green Bay allstar TE, Mark Chumura when the statatory rape charges came up? The media attacked and criticized Chamura just as much as they do when any other NFL player is connected with that type of scandal. However when NBA icons Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan admitted or were caught redhanded participating in multiple extra-marrital affairs, the matter was swept under the rug faster than you can say "David Stern". 

I would venture to say that if 80% of NBA players are black, then probably 80% of the "bad behavior" exhibited by NBA players are by black players. Which is to say that when it comes to conduct unbecoming and NBA player, blacks are no worse than whites. Likewise, based on pure statistics only, it's more likely that bad behavior is more likely (80:20) to be carried out by a black player (purely numberwise). In turn, if any coach reference two bad incidents, there is a greater chance that those two players will be both black. Make no mistake, it's not that blacks have great propensity to act up, it just that there are significantly more blacks than whites.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> I know this has dragged on and people want it to be over, but I think this is something pretty important.
> 
> ...


The reality in this post, will be missed. Don't forget you also hear the cries of them being overpaid and thugs (all of them). 

I'm done wasting my time with this. However, the fans need to be punished or soon there will be barricades blocking the fans from the players. Just like the players need to shape up, the fans need to shape up too. I don't even attend sporting events more than once a year anymore, because the fans are out of control maniacs.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

I wonder if these things would classify as being part of "that element"?

Driving Intoxicated?
Possesion of Marijuana?
Dumb fights with teammates?
Quitting on your team?


Hmmm, It seems to me that Coach Hypocrite is guilty of each and everyone of these things. It seems to me that Coach Hypocrite ought to keep his mouth shut because he clearly was a "thug" during his day and a quitter recently


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> I wonder if these things would classify as being part of "that element"?
> 
> Driving Intoxicated?
> ...


nothing like a poster w/ an agenda.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Nocioni would have given the same foul that Artest did. They have the same mindset on the court. And that's why I like both guys.

Frankly I think the NBA should encourage players to beat up dumbass fans. It would make for great television. You want to make fun of Steve Kerr's dead father? Fine. But now you have to deal with a karate kick to the throat by the best 3 point shooter in NBA history.

People need to understand that just because you bought a ticket doesn't mean these players are your monkeys. They are human beings and deserve to be treated with the same dignity afforded any other human being. The **** that players put up with on a daily basis at their place of work, almost justifies their exhorbant salaries.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!
> 
> 
> He bashed two players, both of whom happened to be black.
> ...


Mike, not as a knock to you, but you are a poster I have often read and disagreed with on this board. However, I don't think you could be more right here. If you criticize NBA players, you shouldn't confuse that with criticizing black players/culture. The NBA is predominately black. To criticize the players is not to be racist.

A few thoughts:

First, Artest should have been conscious of where the game was and not fouled so hard.

Second, Ben Wallace's shove was WAY WAY WAY out of line. I agree Artest's foul was unnecessarily hard and ill-timed, but Wallace's shove was completely ridiculous. I hope he's suspended for a long, long time.

Third, Ron, even if it was just passive aggressive behavior, did the right thing by trying to hang back and not get involved in the fight.

Fourth, Ron totally F'd up by jumping into the stands. As long as Wallace should be suspended, Artest should get more. I know I'd want to hurt someone if they threw a drink at me, but you have to know better than that, I'm sorry.

Jermaine O'Neal is a punk and a cheap-shotter. 

The Detroit fans who were throwing all those punches should have a very bad day in court. I really really want to see them punished.

Ok, now only tangentially related to the fight:

There definitely is a culture of individualism that is desctructive in the NBA and needs to be stopped. Recognizing that is not racist. All races are equally capable of acting in this classless manner. It's the same way you can dislike the so-called "And 1" style of play and not be racist. Just b/c it's predominately black people participating in it does not mean that you dislike the conduct b/c it's black people doing it. There's a big problem with racism in this country, but we need to be fair about recognizing when that actually is or is not the issue. 

Listen, at the end of the day, I am increasingly convinced that Skiles is not the right man for the job here. However, he is dead on in his assessment of the Indiana incident. He's not being racist, not stupid, not hypocritical, or anything else. Also, just b/c the guy made stupid decisions in his past doesn't mean that he can't comment on what is happening now. I know in my life I have done things that I now recognize were poor decisions. That does not make me unqualified to say that certain behavior is good or bad. My opinion is valid. In fact, those who have learned from poor decisions may know better than anyone else what the price of reckless behavior can be and may more fully understand the impact of that conduct. 

Basically, I would say I'm shocked that people want to somehow turn this into some sort of opportunity to defend terrible behavior in order to bash Skiles. I don't think he's a great coach, but it doesn't somehow make the Indiana fight acceptable just b/c he spoke out on the matter. Get real.


----------



## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>jnrjr79</b>!
> 
> 
> Mike, not as a knock to you, but you are a poster I have often read and disagreed with on this board. However, I don't think you could be more right here. If you criticize NBA players, you shouldn't confuse that with criticizing black players/culture. The NBA is predominately black. To criticize the players is not to be racist.
> ...


There's a culture of individualism in America. But again why is it more recognized in the NBA than in a larger context ?


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> There's a culture of individualism in America. But again why is it more recognized in the NBA than in a larger context ?


Is it? I think the culture of individualism is criticized in many arenas beyond the NBA. I think the idea of people being overly self-interested is pervasive in our culture, and I don't think NBA players receive some sort of unfair share of the blame. If they do, I'd at least say it's all of pro sports, not just the NBA. Those who are not multi-millionaires tend to be critical of these athletes when they are not humble and team-oriented. While sometimes it gets taken too far, it isn't a terrible ethic. These guys are lucky in life that they get to play basketball to make a very nice living. It shouldn't be forgotten. While they shouldn't be totally beholden to the fans and their desires, they should realize that they do have it pretty good.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>jnrjr79</b>!
> 
> 
> Is it? I think the culture of individualism is criticized in many arenas beyond the NBA. I think the idea of people being overly self-interested is pervasive in our culture, and I don't think NBA players receive some sort of unfair share of the blame. If they do, I'd at least say it's all of pro sports, not just the NBA. Those who are not multi-millionaires tend to be critical of these athletes when they are not humble and team-oriented. While sometimes it gets taken too far, it isn't a terrible ethic. These guys are lucky in life that they get to play basketball to make a very nice living. It shouldn't be forgotten. While they shouldn't be totally beholden to the fans and their desires, they should realize that they do have it pretty good.


You said "There definitely is a culture of individualism that is desctructive in the NBA and needs to be stopped." 

If it's so prevalent everywhere, why talk about eliminating it in the NBA ? That's not where the root of the problem is.

How can you stop individualism in a place like the NBA that is merely taking part in the individualism that is perpetuated at large by a whole frickin' society ? 

I also don't know where you got the idea to generalize them and imply that they aren't thankful for what they had.


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## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> I know this has dragged on and people want it to be over, but I think this is something pretty important.
> 
> ...


Not to beat a dead horse, but one last comment. 

I agree that culture and race are intertwined. And I also agree that there are double-standards in society (as I stated in another post) when it comes to questional behavior, whether it is criminal, unethical, immoral or what have you. A young black man can rob a liquor store and get away with $150 and if caught, he'll spend the next 7-10 years in a hardcore prison. But a white guy who intentionally defrauds 1000's of elderly out of their life savings (in excess of millions of dollars) will spend the 5 years max in club fed. This is an example of one of the 1000s, perhaps millions of injustices practiced in our society. But again, Skiles, whether you like him or not, didn't saying anything racist in my opinion.

Nash's opposition of the war in Irag is not only justified, but well within his right as a dual US/Canadian citizen. That does not make him communist. Quite the contrary, it makes him caring. Caring about all of the men and women who have sacraficed their lives to fight for an unjust cause. Doesn't make him appreciate their efforts any less, in fact, he probably appreciates them more. It's sad to say, but a significant portion of the men and women on the front lines are likely to be minorities. Isn't it ironic that the very same people defending our rights and freedoms are the same people benefiting the least from them. 

Your point about him nopt mentioning Jason Williams (half black/half white) is probably attributed to an oversight. Moreover, it shows that he isn't racist at all. I venture to guess that he didn't mention Jason Williams because he hasn't acted up as an NBA player. His "problems" happened after he had stepped away from the game.

Last comment. I reserve judgment for Skiles as a coach for a later date. His handling of the team, has Bulls management (i.e. Paxson) all over it. Curry is playing for a contract extension, so don't expect Paxson to encourage Skiles to build the offense around Eddy Curry anytime soon. If the Bulls truly wanted to win games now, they would design and run plays for Curry. The Bulls most competitive advantage (on offense) is Curry. Yet the Bulls fail to milk that cow. Paxson wants to devalue Curry as much as possible, re-sign him at a discount rate and then expect him to perform like he is a upper-echelon player.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> There's a culture of individualism in America. But again why is it more recognized in the NBA than in a larger context ?


1. Basketball inherently places more attention on the individual because individuals matter more than in, say, football.

Put a top 5 basketball player on a really ****ty team and it might get to .500 and even make the playoffs.

Put a top 5 football player on a really ****ty team and its a bad team. 

2. Basketball players have their money guaranteed, so they don't face as many penalties to being eccentric or lazy.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> The initial skirmish wasn't all that bad, with Artest retreating to the scorer's table and lying atop it after Wallace sent him reeling backward.
> 
> But when a fan tossed a cup at Artest, he stormed into the stands, throwing punches as he climbed over seats.
> ...


take a look at the video again , and i mean the 1st moment the guy in question came into picture , he was yelling back but not in a way that says he was trying to avoid trouble until artest was right on top of him, when artest was still a couple of rows away , he was very aggressively yelling about something and i bet it wasn't "season's greetings"


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> You said "There definitely is a culture of individualism that is desctructive in the NBA and needs to be stopped."
> 
> ...



You talk about stopping them in the NBA just like you talk about stopping them anywhere else. This is an NBA basketball forum. Therefore, when I see the culture of individualism in NBA basketball, I post here saying I don't like it. If this was a basket weaving forum and I saw that culture, I'd do the same thing. Yes, it's pervasive throughout society, but I'm just limiting myself to the context we're in right now.

Also, I would point out there's a difference between being egocentric and being thankful for what you have. You can do both at the same time. I'm not talking about whether or not players are thankful.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>remlover</b>!
> 
> 
> nothing like a poster w/ an agenda.


unlike the previous post with about skiles being a republican(inferring that he must have racist veiws) , this one actually is a good point, Most people in his position of prior transgressions are somewhat understanding to people who later fall into the same situations.

skiles isn't and instead uses missteps in a way that he surely would not have liked done to him way back when.

that makes him a hypocrite, getting on a high horse about what needs to be eliminated from the league when he was no better, is pretty weak, especially considering all 4 players suspended(as well as latrell sprewell) are currently better players at this moment than he was at any point in his career , if the league had such a way of dealing with things a lesser player like him would have been drummed out the league long ago.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>jnrjr79</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> You talk about stopping them in the NBA just like you talk about stopping them anywhere else. This is an NBA basketball forum. Therefore, when I see the culture of individualism in NBA basketball, I post here saying I don't like it. If this was a basket weaving forum and I saw that culture, I'd do the same thing. Yes, it's pervasive throughout society, but I'm just limiting myself to the context we're in right now.


#&!#*$! All over a Skiles comment. What a big ****ing mess. 

I'm just going to retrace my steps.

I started out combating Skiles. This latest comment by Skiles about eliminating an element was just not only hypocritical on his part, but was also another example of his own cultural inflexibility. I was thinking if he or some posters would have made the same comments about characteristics associated (whether wanted or not) with white culture needing to change had they been white players.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> #&!#*$! All over a Skiles comment. What a big ****ing mess.
> 
> ...


What I'm saying is that it's not a black culture issue and casting it as such is unfair. Skiles did not make the comment in racial terms, nor do I think that was the meaning he intended.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

What "element" is Skiles talking about? 

Name names.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> What "element" is Skiles talking about?
> 
> Name names.


Wait, let me get out my super duper mind reading hat.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>jnrjr79</b>!
> 
> 
> What I'm saying is that it's not a black culture issue and casting it as such is unfair. Skiles did not make the comment in racial terms, nor do I think that was the meaning he intended.


I already said, of course he didn't make it in racial terms, but it's subtly in there (and not necessarily a driving force for a comment), just by virtue of talking vaguely about characteristics that need to be changed in the NBA as a whole, like it was something that permeates the NBA, and thus needs to be eliminated. He did not treat it as some kind of isolated incident by some players who just merely got really pissed off with one thing leading to another. 

Like for example, Rudy T. on fox sports net just said, "it was the heat of the moment kind of thing, it sucks." Now that's even more vague and it's on TV, but he understands the incident as something that happened as it was without attaching some kind of characteristics to players. 

In conclusion, Skiles should have just shut the hell up about his social commentary.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jnrjr79</b>!
> 
> 
> Wait, let me get out my super duper mind reading hat.


You seem to know his "intent."

I really want to know what "element" he's talking about.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> You seem to know his "intent."
> ...


It would be little more than reckless speculation to try to come up with some sort of list of players that we think Skiles is talking about here.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> I already said, of course he didn't make it in racial terms, but it's subtly in there (and not necessarily a driving force for a comment), just by virtue of talking vaguely about characteristics that need to be changed in the NBA as a whole, like it was something that permeates the NBA, and thus needs to be eliminated. He did not treat it as some kind of isolated incident by some players who just merely got really pissed off with one thing leading to another.
> 
> ...


I think what some people think is subtlety is actually just non-existant and invented in the head as a result of bias. 
Listen, I'm no Skiles fan, but I don't think there's any racism going on here - not even in subtext.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jnrjr79</b>!
> 
> 
> It would be little more than reckless speculation to try to come up with some sort of list of players that we think Skiles is talking about here.


It wouldn't be any more reckless than Skiles's choice of words.

Look, I'm not calling the guy a racist, but at the very best he's guilty of horrible judgment. A white coach in a black league following a fiasco like Friday really shouldn't break out what is easy to interpret or misunderstand as racial code language.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> It wouldn't be any more reckless than Skiles's choice of words.
> ...


What was the "code" language? "Element"? 

Yep. Skiles doesn't want any black guys in the game. He just wants short combover white guys with assist records. Oh, the Holocaust was his fault as well. He also enjoys dropping babies from the tops of tall buildings and stealing old ladies' dentures.


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## badfish (Feb 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> You seem to know his "intent."
> ...


Didn't he mention Spree and Artest specifically in his quote? Am I missing something here? Funny how a thread can take a life of its own to an extent where we all forget what started it in the first place.  




> Look, I'm not calling the guy a racist, but at the very best he's guilty of horrible judgment. A white coach in a black league following a fiasco like Friday really shouldn't break out what is easy to interpret or misunderstand as racial code language.



And I agree with this statement completely. Keep your mind focused on your own issues, why don't ya.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jnrjr79</b>!
> 
> 
> What was the "code" language? "Element"?
> ...


You just don't get it. 

Let's move on.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> You just don't get it.
> ...


Do you know how juvenile that is? "I declare myself the winner b/c you disagree. Next subject."

Yeah, sure.

This isn't PTI dude. I would think we could agree to disagree without having to resort to this kind of stuff.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jnrjr79</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you know how juvenile that is? "I declare myself the winner b/c you disagree. Next subject."
> ...


That wasn't my intent. My intent was, "If you don't understand what's potentially offensive about language like 'that element,' it isn't possible for me to explain why, and I'm not going to waste any more of our time trying."

Peace.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> That wasn't my intent. My intent was, "If you don't understand what's potentially offensive about language like 'that element,' it isn't possible for me to explain why, and I'm not going to waste any more of our time trying."
> ...


There is a difference between "potentially offensive" and actually racist. A lot of speech is potentially offensive. People misconstrue things all the time. Language is a matter of perception. I agree that "that element" is potentially offensive, but I do not believe that it is racist. I think he's referring to selfish people, more or less, not black people. I don't think he had any intention to be racist. I don't think it's reasonable to see any racism in the comment. However, I do know that some people will perceive it as racist. I believe they are incorrect.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jnrjr79</b>!
> 
> 
> There is a difference between "potentially offensive" and actually racist. A lot of speech is potentially offensive. People misconstrue things all the time. Language is a matter of perception. I agree that "that element" is potentially offensive, but I do not believe that it is racist. I think he's referring to selfish people, more or less, not black people. I don't think he had any intention to be racist. I don't think it's reasonable to see any racism in the comment. However, I do know that some people will perceive it as racist. I believe they are incorrect.


perception and reality are 2 seperate things.

for instance ron artest did not ask out of 2 games last nweek because he needed the rest to promote his rap album.

for one its he didn't ask out for it.

also the album in question isn't his or even rap its a girl group called allure thats coming out on the 23rd.

both coach and player said it was about other stuff that was detrimental to the team , but the rumors persist to the point where when the discussion is on his team imposed suspension of last week , that the reason was he needed time off for his rap album.

a sliver of stupidity can go a long way, and in skiles case he has self imposed it on himself , there is no misquoting him, since it all came from his own lips.


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## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

Guess which coach made this statement, which sounds a bit different than Skiles' reaction.

"A guy hit me in the head with an aerosol can coming right out of the huddle, and it kind of got me a little bit unnerved. I should have been smarter, but I wasn't. I've always tried to remind players to stay on the bench if there's a fight." — XXX coach YYY, who as a player went into the stands to confront a fan in ZZZ.

Or how about this one?

"People are putting all the burden on (Ron) Artest, and I don't think that's fair. He's an easy target because of all the things he's been through. But some fans have gotten to a point where they think they can do or say anything. I think civility needs to try to make a comeback." — XXX coach YYY.

Or how about these three?

"That's not what we stand for. That's not what the league is about. That's not what the fans want to see. It's just one of those situations that never should have happened. It escalated, it got out of control." — XXX coach YYY. 

"I'm pro-NBA and image in total is important, that's fans and players — the whole thing. It's all about the product, so anything that's negative toward the NBA, I've certainly got a problem with." — XXX coach YYY. 

"It's bad. As players we're told regardless of what happens on the court you can't go into the stands. You just can't do it. Do I think the fans should share some of the blame? Yeah. But as professionals, as NBA players, you cannot go into the stands." — XXX coach YYY.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

I'm not going to guess on any of these, Dan. It's too depressing.

One of the following MUST be true: either our coach has extremely sketchy personal beliefs, or he's just pathetically obtuse and media un-savvy. 

Way to go, Pax.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> I'm not going to guess on any of these, Dan. It's too depressing.
> 
> One of the following MUST be true: either our coach has extremely sketchy personal beliefs, or he's just pathetically obtuse and media un-savvy.
> ...


<img src="http://img112.exs.cx/img112/3021/hit_nail_on_head.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

There's no relief icon.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> I know this has dragged on and people want it to be over, but I think this is something pretty important.
> 
> ...


Great post. There was a lot of truth to what Skiles said but it just didn't sound quite right. I question his motives.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks aga*



> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> I already said, of course he didn't make it in racial terms, but it's subtly in there (and not necessarily a driving force for a comment), just by virtue of talking vaguely about characteristics that need to be changed in the NBA as a whole, like it was something that permeates the NBA, and thus needs to be eliminated. He did not treat it as some kind of isolated incident by some players who just merely got really pissed off with one thing leading to another.
> 
> ...


Eh, you're wasting time with these people even though your point makes almost too much sense. 

You hit it on the head. These people just don't get it.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

One last thing...

Skiles needs to keep his ****ing mouth shut, from now on. He has dogged everyone and everything from AI to the culture in the NBA. 

His team sucks and as much as he preaches effort, his team aint' giving it 100% night in and night out. He needs to spend his energy getting his team together, not policing the NBA. 

I've had enough of this clown.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> I just hope it's a coincidence that Skiles chose such a racially-charged phrase in this discussion. What is "that element", Scott?


Thuglife...and it knows no race.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dan Rosenbaum</b>!
> The ironic aspect of Skiles' statements are that if he is really serious about getting rid of "that element," one of the players that probably would be first to go would be one of his favorites - Andres Nocioni. He certainly has had incidents far worse than the foul on O'Neal at the end of the Pacers/Pistons game.


How is Andres a thug?


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Thuglife...and it knows no race.



What do you mean by thuglife? I dont think too many NBA players sell drugs, kill people, smack *****es and hoes, and rock gang colors. So why are they thugs? I think jock is a better word, or better yet ruffian, or tough guys?


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

Scott Skiles is a racist


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>DaFuture</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by thuglife? I dont think too many NBA players sell drugs, kill people, smack *****es and hoes, and rock gang colors. So why are they thugs?


Because you left off the rest of the definition. :laugh:


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Skiles speaks again*



> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Because you left off the rest of the definition. :laugh:


I can't believe you, I really can't. I'm liable to say what I want to say, but I won't because I respect you GB. You seem to have a lot of "Wayne Brady" in your jib.


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

So what is your definition of thug, thats how I define it, Im just curious how you think buddy?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Somehow this tragedy fits into our discussion, I just can't figure out how:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/22/hunters.slain/index.html


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaFuture</b>!
> So what is your definition of thug, thats how I define it, Im just curious how you think buddy?


This one is good enough:

>>an aggressive and violent young criminal<<

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=thug

I'd replace the word criminal simply with "person". They almost always end up being criminals, but not always.

There are others...


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

And in today's Trib, Skiles is quoted as saying the suspensions were not tough enough!

Trib Link (registration required) 

I guess if Skiles were commish, Artest, Jackson, and O'Neal would be on Parchman Farm as we speak.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Somehow this tragedy fits into our discussion, I just can't figure out how:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/22/hunters.slain/index.html


He's a thug, whether he fits our preconceptions or not: a rebellious, violently aggressive person.

>>Hunters returning to their deer shack in southwestern Sawyer County find a man whom they don't know in their deer stand. They ask him to leave and a confrontation ensues. The man leaves but later returns and opens fire with a semiautomatic rifle. One of the wounded men uses a walkie-talkie to summon other hunters. They too are shot. Five are killed, three are wounded. The wounded are taken to hospitals in Rice Lake and Marshfield.<<

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5098233.html


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> This one is good enough:
> ...




So they are criminals and violent because they lost their cool in a volatile situation. Well then I am a thug, you ar a thug probably. We are all thugs. I thought to be violent, you had to show a history of physically assaulting someone. Artes is arguable but the O'neal and Jackson are not. IMHO Artest is at best confrontational.



"Cuz baby I'm a thug"- Trick Daddy.


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

Every Hockey player is a thug, Boxers are thugs too, forget they get paid,, they are violentlyv aggressive people , most cops are too, Football players are aggressive too and they play in a violent game. The world is fullof thugs. George Bush is a thug too, the violent aggressive mission he has taken in Iraq, classifies him as a thug. We are all thugs. Thug Life! Baby Babay!


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## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

By the way, does anybody know if Mike Ditka was suspended when he levelled that fan who came on the field during his playing days? That hit was more vicious than what O'Neal did and the context was certainly less threatening.

Personally, as long as major changes are made to curb fan behavior (which Stern indicated were coming in his press conference), I am fine with the suspensions of Artest and Jackson. O'Neal's, however, seems excessive, since he apparently never made it into the stands. He apparently tried to get into the stands but was restrained. In my mind, given the potential threat that fans entering the court could potentially pose, I would think that more leniency would have to be given to O'Neal than was given to Ditka.

I also liked how Stern took some responsibility for this brawl in his press conference. I am not one of his biggest fans, but I thought (as usual) he hit the right tones in his press conference. He is up there in Karl Rove territory in terms of political genius and discipline.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaFuture</b>!
> Every Hockey player is a thug, Boxers are thugs too, forget they get paid,, they are violentlyv aggressive people , most cops are too, Football players are aggressive too and they play in a violent game. The world is fullof thugs. George Bush is a thug too, the violent aggressive mission he has taken in Iraq, classifies him as a thug. We are all thugs. Thug Life! Baby Babay!


No no no DaFuture. 

Thugs = black violent people
Punks = white violent people

Didn't you get that memo?


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

Ive been getting at that all day. No one has the balls to admit it. Im not condoning their behavior. I just dont like the blatant wrong use of the word and the way it is used against black people. I would feel the same way if it was used against whites.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Might just be me, but I don't equate playing hard for 48 minutes with fouling a guy extra hard when the game's over and your team is about to win.

That said, you betta recognize:


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

The badboys of Detroit would have done it, they played hard right? So would the New York Knicks of the early 90's? 


You dont give up easy baskets, I wish Eddy Curry played that way?


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

Skiles: "I think there's a certain kind of player and a certain element in our league that needs to be eliminated, period."

FWIW, Fox News this morning (11/22) reported that 40% of all current NBA players have _serious_ criminal records.

Brian Kilmeade of FOX & Friends was issuing his report on the brawl during the program's sports segment. Co-host E.D. Hill added the information about the percentage of players with criminal records, stating unequivically that the pecentage was in reference to serious offenses and not minor incidents.

I had no idea the percentage was so high. Perhaps that's the "element" Skiles was referring to.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

*"You cannot keep your job and choke your boss unless you're an NBA player," Stern said then. "But this is arbitration."*

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...brawl,1,3300071.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> Skiles: "I think there's a certain kind of player and a certain element in our league that needs to be eliminated, period."
> 
> FWIW, Fox News this morning (11/22) reported that 40% of all current NBA players have _serious_ criminal records.
> ...


Well, I wouldn't expect anything less from such a reputable news source that immediately puts itself on the defensive with a slogan that says "fair and balanced."

What do you mean by serious ? Did they kill anyone ? Were they DUIs and possession of drugs ? Perhaps this stuff was way back in the past ?

I mean if they're so criminal, I guess people should really stop from going to their games cause these NBA players are potential threats to their safety.



I wonder, did these Fox people say anything about a gun culture in the that case which actually involves deaths that ScottMay brought up from CNN ? Or to them is it just an isolated case of a bunch of weirdo white guys in Middle America blowing each other up ?


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## Real McCoy (Oct 17, 2003)

Skiles keeps talking. He seems to be over his head again. 

Quitting time is coming up soon.


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## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> Skiles: "I think there's a certain kind of player and a certain element in our league that needs to be eliminated, period."
> 
> FWIW, Fox News this morning (11/22) reported that 40% of all current NBA players have _serious_ criminal records.
> ...


Well, even if this is "true and accurate" (which I highly doubt), it is 10 percent lower than the percentage of those with serious criminal offenses among the two elected members of the Executive Branch of our Federal government.

Or make that 26.7 percent less if we throw in the top personality in the Fox News network.

Or make that 35 percent less if we in addition throw in the head coach of the Chicago Bulls.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dan Rosenbaum</b>!
> By the way, does anybody know if Mike Ditka was suspended when he levelled that fan who came on the field during his playing days? That hit was more vicious than what O'Neal did and the context was certainly less threatening.


It might have been less threatening but I wouldn't characterize it as not threatening at all. In this age of Monica Seles being stabbed on the tennis court and of 2 incidents of violent fans entering the field of play at Sox Park, I'd say anytime a fan leaves the viewing area and approaches the players on the field, that's a threatening situation.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

They are quoting "Out of Bounds" a recently released book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060726024/103-8984345-7527008?v=glance

The NBA attacked his use of statistics. When they fit...nevermind. 

His own words:

<I>HEMMER: You have stirred up a hornets' nest in this book. You claim that 40 percent of the NBA players have a police record. How did you arrive at that 40 percent figure?

BENEDICT: Bill, quite simply, I sent out nearly 100 public documents requests to law enforcement agencies all across the United States. I sent freedom of information record requests to over 30 courthouses, and petitioned roughly 12 district attorneys' offices.

Got back 12,000 documents of police and court records on almost half of the players. I tried to get records on all 417 American-born NBA players. I got records checks back on 42 percent.

HEMMER: So let me just understand the numbers you're working with now.

BENEDICT: Sure.

HEMMER: You got response on 50 percent of the players in the league.

BENEDICT: Roughly.

HEMMER: And from that 50 percent, that's where you extrapolated this 40 percent figure?

BENEDICT: Forty percent of them had a record.

HEMMER: What do you define as a serious crime?

BENEDICT: <B>Serious crimes would be felonies or misdemeanor crimes involving violence, weapons, substance abuse or theft.</b>

HEMMER: Is this just an accusation or was there a conviction?

BENEDICT: In roughly half of these cases, about 50 percent of these cases result in some form of conviction, meaning either a jury convicted or there was a plea bargain agreement.

HEMMER: How did you handle -- If it's just an accusation, though, how does that, again, fit into your 40 percent category?

BENEDICT: Well, <b>the 40 percent statistic says they have a police record on file.

The story of "Out of Bounds" isn't numbers. It's how come those guys so often don't get convicted.</b> And it's really a look at how NBA players, because of their money, their power, can get away with criminal behavior that most people would never get away with.
</i>

It's that last bolded part that Fox isn't playing square with. They're playing to their audience.

On the other hand, I have no problem believing a statistically important part of the NBA fits the definition of thugs, as posted last night.

Gotta scroll for the rest: http://www-cgi.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0406/21/ltm.02.html


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Somebody tell that bald racist to just STFU! 

Focus on ur own win-less team, idiot. For somebody who stinks at his job, and whose team sucks so bad, u would think he would try to just keep his mouth shut and do what he's supposed to do.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Fizer was pulled over with a gun on the seat of his car.

He's a violent offender, no doubt. And quite likely typical of that 40%.

Sign an NBA contract, move into an upscale neighborhood, and the cops will pull you over for just being black.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> He's a violent offender


Serious was the authors claim...not violent.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Fizer was pulled over with a gun on the seat of his car.
> 
> He's a violent offender, no doubt. And quite likely typical of that 40%.
> ...


Racial profiling and "Driving While Black" happens all the time in this country, which is a sad truth. However, that doesn't give you the right to have a loaded gun in your car. It's wrong, though it's understandable. A lot of these guys drive really nice cars and they don't want to be jacked. I don't think that's a good enough reason to excuse the behavior, but it makes is somewhat understandable.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)




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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

Whatsup GB my thug!?


Thug life Baby! 


How my thug George Bush, and my thug John Chaneney, and all 6 billion thugs around the world doing today.


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