# Ray Felton vs. Deron Williams



## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

The best two point guard prospects are playing in the National Championship, that's good. It's the way it should be. Who is the better NBA prospect? Deron Williams is very good, but I love Ray Felton. Both are pretty good shooters and great playmakers. I just love Felton because he is so damn fast and quick.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Deron is a better decision maker without question, but Felton is a terrific player.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

As for the best PG prospect, no matter what anyone thinks, Chris Paul should at least be mentioned.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

gian said:


> As for the best PG prospect, no matter what anyone thinks, Chris Paul should at least be mentioned.


I think he is going to end up staying at Wake Forest for one more year, and get his degree. There is an Other option. And I think if Chris Paul is so good, then his team should still be playing in the NCAA Tournament.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

gian said:


> Chris Paul should at least be mentioned.


do you work for espn? :biggrin:


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

TonyM said:


> do you work for espn? :biggrin:


He said Chris Paul, not J.J. Reddick. :biggrin:


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## Shabadoo (Feb 12, 2005)

I think I've stated my opinions on how important scoring is. I've kind of adopted a strange view on defence as a result. However, while Felton is a superior scorer, I just cannot pass on Deron.

I understand that HKF is sort of the Guru of College Basketball here. Knowing basically nothing about College bball (until they started showing lots of games here this year), I noted his opinions on Deron, the next Jason Kidd. When I saw a picture of Deron, I'll admit I was a little sceptical. Often comparisons are made partly on complexion, although this is not racist or discriminatory.

This scepticism was immediately removed when I watched Deron for 5 minutes against Wisc. Mil. and the entire Arizona match. You can just see that Deron understands the game and how the match unfolds. I can see the Kidd comparisons now. He saunters around the court just like Kidd does when he's in the half court. He seems to delay the pass until the right moment, just like Kidd. He seems to understand when to slow down or when to make the assisting pass. He is really clutch to boot.

However, there are quite a few differences to Kidd. He is far slower around the court, although he has nice acceleration. His bread and butter seems to be the half court motion offence, whereas Kidd is renowned for his up-tempo fast-break game. It is early for me to say (after 2 and a bit matches) but he seems to favour the simple pass, more like Nash, then the ridiculous passes that Kidd normally completes. Also, Deron shoots far better then Kidd from mid range and from the 3. He also appears to play bigger around the court; although this could just be because college guys are a bit smaller (they are around the same size).

I might be wrong, but I sort of see Deron as an amalgamation of Kidd and Andre Miller. If we subtract Miller's post game and Kidd's rebounding, while adding better shooting, we more or less get Deron. A slowish player with freaky court vision. He exhibits the defensive skill of both players too.

Felton is really good too. He didn't impress me against Wisconsin, but he was great today. He is a far better scorer then Deron, and is much quicker around the court. He is able to create his own shot far more readily, and has better range on his shot (although Deron can shoot the 3). He likes to take contact and is an alright defender, pretty adept at playing the passing lanes.

However, I'll say I was much more impressed with Ben Gordon last year. That isn't really a slight, as Gordon is really good, but Gordon wasn't really looked at as a special player (people thought Paxson was reaching at number 3). Felton is a nice passer, but Deron is just far better. He is adequate at running the offence, but again Deron is better. I don't think we can credit all of Illi's incredible ball movement to Deron, but he is the catalyst for it. Ray also appears far smaller, although the tape says the difference is only 2 inches.

Deron seems to be a special type of player.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

TheATLien said:


> I think he is going to end up staying at Wake Forest for one more year, and get his degree. There is an Other option. And I think if Chris Paul is so good, then his team should still be playing in the NCAA Tournament.


Just going with the hype man. :laugh: I don't know much, but he's supposed to be "nba level" since two years ago.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

I actually think Felton is much more similar to Kidd in that he simply runs people off the floor. It's on the break where Felton is superior to Williams as a playmaker, and that's where Kidd makes his living as well. Williams is good on the break, but he doesn't push the ball the way that Kidd/Felton do. That's Dee Brown's job on that team. Williams is much better in the half court setting, where Felton and Kidd both struggle. 

And as for the Felton/Williams matchup on Monday, I expect to see Dee Brown on Felton most of the night, and Williams to lock up McCants.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

Raymond Felton = Adam Boone

right?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Williams is one hell of a defender. He's doesn't look that quick but he's terrific at moving his feet and he keeps everything in front of him. Quite remarkable. If he can lose a bit more weight before the draft could he actually move ahead of Paul?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

One thing about Williams though. He excels on the fastbreak. The problem with that is that Weber doesn't preach a fastbreak attack. He can get up and down the floor with the best of them. The Championship Game should be impressive from a guard perspective.

Also Shabadoo, there is nothing wrong with being impressed with Gordon more. Gordon was absolutely devastating the final month of the college season and his scoring ability is so great, that people think he isn't great at other things. He might be the 2nd coming of Isaiah Thomas, maybe not now, but soon (although his apg will never look like Isaiah's).


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

I think Felton's athleticism and quickness will transfer over far better at the next level, while Deron will struggle mightily with quick PGs. He's slow footed at the NBA level, doesn't have great athleticism and isn't particularly quick in any direction. Plus, I think Felton will have the superior stamina at the next level, which is even more important for a point guard. 

That said, they're both fantastic guards at the college level.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

I think it depend on what type of team you have. If you want to push the tempo constantly, I think you go with Felton. However, I am truly torn between the two players because they both have that PG trait I love: they stop and extend runs.

However, I will stick to my draft philosophy: When both player are even in talent, go with size. Give me Deron.

P.S. On another draft note: I wouldn't touch Rashard McCants with a 10 foot pole. If a player can't hustle in the Final Four, you can't play for me. I don't care what anyone says, he will be a disappointment his entire NBA career. That is a serius character flaw.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

Felton all the way, especially as a pro prospect. Deron is too slow to defend PG in the NBA.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

HKF said:


> One thing about Williams though. He excels on the fastbreak. The problem with that is that Weber doesn't preach a fastbreak attack. He can get up and down the floor with the best of them. The Championship Game should be impressive from a guard perspective.


He's a fabulous fast break passer, but he absolutely does not push the ball like Kidd or Felton, nor will he ever have the athletic ability to push the ball like Kidd or Felton. This is a fact.


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## BigMac (Jan 14, 2005)

Deron Williams = Miller they both can't shoot and both are slow.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I will be proven right, that's all I'm going to say. Ben Gordon had detractors to and they have all shriveled up into nothing.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Well, actually, Chris Paul is the best PG prospect in the country. These two are second and third, with Jarrett Jack close behind them. I'd take Deron Williams.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

HKF said:


> I will be proven right, that's all I'm going to say. Ben Gordon had detractors to and they have all shriveled up into nothing.


I'm not saying Deron Williams isn't going to make it in the NBA. But if he was as explosive in the open court as Felton, Kidd, or others like them, he would be the number one pick in the draft, quite possibly the best PG prospect of the last 20 years or so. His court vision, craftiness, and defensive ability make him a very good prospect. NOT his athleticism or ability to run people into the ground. This is why the Andre Miller comparison makes a lot more sense than the Jason Kidd one, though Williams is much better at making people better, and should end up a better overall PG. Is it possible for a player you hype to be something other than perfect, or is that completely out of the question?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Jonathan Watters said:


> I'm not saying Deron Williams isn't going to make it in the NBA. But if he was as explosive in the open court as Felton, Kidd, or others like them, he would be the number one pick in the draft, quite possibly the best PG prospect of the last 20 years or so. His court vision, craftiness, and defensive ability make him a very good prospect. NOT his athleticism or ability to run people into the ground. This is why the Andre Miller comparison makes a lot more sense than the Jason Kidd one, though Williams is much better at making people better, and should end up a better overall PG. Is it possible for a player you hype to be something other than perfect, or is that completely out of the question?


No not at all. Well obviously comparing anyone to Kidd isn't going to work, because Kidd has a full body of work for a career. Don't forget though that Kidd was compared to Magic Johnson and Magic Johnson he was not. Doesn't mean he isn't a HOF player, but he wasn't a Legend like Magic. Same with Deron. Deron might not be Kidd, but he can be close to as good as Kidd or better if a few things go his way. 

For one, he's a better defender than Kidd is. On those Nets teams, Kerry Kittles always defended the PG, because Kidd doesn't have the lateral quickness to stay with PG, regardless of what people try to say, it's not true, he can't stay with smaller quick guards. He almost never guarded Marbury either. 

Deron can guard big or little men, because he does move his feet well. The main concerns I have with Deron, are his aggressiveness and his conditioning. I've been saying it for 2 years now. His conditioning in terms of his body has to improve and I think he knows that as he will more than likely be with Tim Grover after the season is over working on his body. He might never be ripped up, but he needs to take off some of that excess fat and weight. It's not much, but he needs to be solid. He also needs to attack more often. On the pro level, I think he will be more of a push the rock type of PG, because he does have excellent court vision. He sees the floor better than most. Against Ohio State, I was screaming for Deron to get more aggressive and it didn't happen, but he has that kind of ability that once he gets it in his mind that he can't be stopped, you're not going to stop his dribble penetration. He is strong and quicker than people think. 

Also I don't understand why people question his athleticism. He is not conditioned the best, yet he can throw down one handed tomahawk jams and catch two handed alleyoops. He has hops and quicks. The thing is, this guy will rarely be dunking on the pro level. He will simply lay it in at the middle of the rim. 

I look for him to be 8-10 ppg, 6 apg as a rookie in Utah.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

ill take williams as the better overrall prospect. there are plenty of starting PG's in the NBA who are much slower than williams. he's also a great leader, shows poise and doesnt make mistakes, he's like a quarterback out there. felton is great especially athletically but he plays too out of control at times. both are equally decent shooters. what separates them is williams' defensive abillity IMO.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Deron Williams is too slow to defend NBA point guards, but Felton's going to be ok? Ray Felton gave up 18 points to Kammron Taylor, Wisconsin's backup point guard who's blindingly quick. In three games against Illinois the highest point total for a Wisconsin guard was 14, by Chambliss who was guarded always by Dee Brown. Felton just doesn't impress me and I really don't think someone with only a background in pushing the ball up the court can survive because there's just way more to the game than pushing it every possession (which I HATE).


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

HKF said:


> No not at all. Well obviously comparing anyone to Kidd isn't going to work, because Kidd has a full body of work for a career. Don't forget though that Kidd was compared to Magic Johnson and Magic Johnson he was not. Doesn't mean he isn't a HOF player, but he wasn't a Legend like Magic. Same with Deron. Deron might not be Kidd, but he can be close to as good as Kidd or better if a few things go his way.
> 
> For one, he's a better defender than Kidd is. On those Nets teams, Kerry Kittles always defended the PG, because Kidd doesn't have the lateral quickness to stay with PG, regardless of what people try to say, it's not true, he can't stay with smaller quick guards. He almost never guarded Marbury either.
> 
> ...


Listen, I'm not questioning whether Deron can become a good pro PG. He obviously has top-notch court vision, understanding of tempo, and defensive ability. I don't know if you read my writeup over on DraftCity, but I pretty much admit you were right about him being a lotto pick. 

However, it's beyond ridiculous to compare his ability to push the ball to guys like Felton and Kidd. He might be a bit better athlete than he looks, but he still isn't in their league. He has craft and vision on the break, not world class speed. Again, if he did, he'd be a lock for the #1 pick this june. Yes Deron Williams can dunk. Can he throw down tomahawk jams? I think that's just another example of your Deron Williams hyperbole. 

You just don't see Williams blowing by people on the break or in the halfcourt. He gets around people with craft, with a very extensive knowledge of how to create space and get defenders into the air. He doesn't run people into the ground on the fast break like Kidd, or blast past defenders with a lightning quick first step like Felton. These are the defining characterstics of an athletic PG, and Williams doesn't have them. 

And you know what? That is perfectly fine. He's still a projected lotto pick. Why can't you just leave it at that? There's no need to exaggerate what he can/can't do.


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## Cam*Ron (Apr 13, 2003)

I'll take Felton.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Fair enough, we'll see who will be proven right when he's in the league. I told Cheezdoodle last year, that Deron would be a top 5-10 pick. Ask him if you don't believe? I also told him that Granger would be a high pick. You don't have to believe what I'm saying about Deron, but I see it and I stick to it.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

HKF said:


> Fair enough, we'll see who will be proven right when he's in the league. I told Cheezdoodle last year, that Deron would be a top 5-10 pick. Ask him if you don't believe? I also told him that Granger would be a high pick. You don't have to believe what I'm saying about Deron, but I see it and I stick to it.


Oh, I know you've been hyping Deron for that long. And I don't know where you keep coming up with the idea that I don't think Deron is a top 10 pick. That's not what I'm arguing here. I'm arguing that I don't think he is a perfect prospect, and you seem to be arguing that he is. If that's what you think, just come out and say it...


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Who said he was perfect? I simply said he's the best PG prospect in college. I don't like Deron as much as I love Gordon that's for sure, but I see greatness for Deron and I stick to that. Also Deron did throw down a tomahawk jam in the first round tournament game against Western Kentucky in '03. I have the game on tape. I mean it's not like Josh Smith throwing it down, but he does have hops, it's just not the way he plays. He doesn't leap like Luther Head, but he's adequate and will be fine.

I thought I also pointed to his main flaws. He's one of the best all-around PG prospects to come out in years.


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## vadimivich (Mar 29, 2004)

Felton is stronger, faster, a better leaper, much more explosive and a better shooter than Deron Williams.

And Deron is still the better prospect simply because of his court vision and savvy.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

vadimivich said:


> Felton is stronger, faster, a better leaper, much more explosive and a better shooter than Deron Williams.
> 
> And Deron is still the better prospect simply because of his court vision and savvy.


He's also more turnover prone (with a tendency to have poor decision making) and how do you know he's stronger and a better shooter? I haven't seen anything to conclusively prove that that's the case.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

HKF said:


> He's also more turnover prone (with a tendency to have poor decision making) and how do you know he's stronger and a better shooter? I haven't seen anything to conclusively prove that that's the case.


That's why Felton isn't the perfect prospect, but there is no reason to expect that he won't control the ball better and make better decisions. Felton has a ton of untapped potential. I think he is going to be far better in the NBA than he is in college.


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## vadimivich (Mar 29, 2004)

Felton's stroke is much smoother looking and he seems to have superior range on it. He also can create his own shot better than Derron. Felton had a better shooting %, better FT % and better 3pt % this year. He shoots the ball off the dribble well, and is a better finisher in the lane as well.

Deron is a bit overated as a shooter, though he's certainly not totally deficient in that area. I highly doubt that he will ever shoot a higher % than Felton in the NBA, or score more PPG.

Doesn't mean he isn't a terrific prospect, the fact that Felton is so good, and Deron is better (IMHO) just shows how good a floor general he is.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

Ray won the Bob Cousey Collegiate Point Guard Award


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## mavsman (Jun 11, 2003)

Deron Williams is the next Andre Miller but is better defensively. And that is pretty good. Andre Miller is a good solid PG in the the league. Miller is not a bad defender either though. Williams greatest strength, is just that, his strength. That will serve him well at the NBA level. He will be an excellent pro.

Felton is obviously alot quicker than Williams but I think he has more question marks in terms of the NBA. He is a little small even for PG. Maybe his quickness and athleticism will make up for that but I think it is still a question mark. It's hard to come up with a current NBA PG to compare him. I don't think Jason Kidd is a good comparison. Kidd is a big, strong and quick. Maybe Felton is like Brevin Knight with more athleticism.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Well, Felton can't cover Williams and I bet Williams can guard him....


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I still will take Deron, but they are both exceptional Point Guards.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Both are good but man Williams seems to have another level at times. Terrific defender completely took McCants out of the game in the second half


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## vadimivich (Mar 29, 2004)

Raymond Felton was the best guard on the floor in the championship game, and Deron played great.

Felton really showed me some stones tonight, I was really impressed. Oh, and that shooting stroke is oh so sweet.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Deron Williams is a JKidd like floor leader, who's not as athletic as JKidd, but is a better shooter. Both are big, very strong, and are excellent defenders. I watch alot of JKidd and am a huge fan of his, so I don't toss around the comparison lightly. When you make the jump to the NBA from college you never know for sure if someone's game is going to translate, or how it will change, but Deron looks like everything I want in a PG.

Felton looks like he's got Marbury/Stevie Franchise potential to me (and I don't use that as a compliment). He's super talented, but he doesn't consistently make good decisions w/ the ball, and that's the most important thing in a PG at the NBA level. That's why Nash and Kidd are the best, and Marbury and Franchise are perennial losers.

I can't imagine Deron Williams just not getting the ball into May for most of the second half of the game. Deron and Illinois were exceptionally patient and knew when to attack. They would work the ball around until they found someone an open shot, no matter if it took 30 seconds of ball movement. The only bad shots I saw Illinois take in the second half were a couple of heat checks (one by Head and one by Williams), and a couple of shots where they had to launch it because the 35 second clock was running down. Can't say that about N. Carolina or Felton.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

If Felton improves that stroke he's going to be even better than I had originally thought. He had balls taking that double teamed 3-pointer. 

And I don't think height will be a problem, he won't be asked to score 20 ppg so it won't really be an issue, and since he has a long wingspan and great lateral quickness, it won't hurt him defensively.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Seanet, 

Big difference between Marbury/Francis and Felton is that Felton is far FAR more willing to give up the rock than either of those two. And IMO that's what makes Felton quite unlike those two (plus Francis and Marbury are stronger, taller, and much better creators off the dribble, though Felton may develop that in the NBA someday).


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Felton is nothing like Marbury and Francis. He's a dime dropper and loves to get out and run. He also doesn't pound the rock with useless dribbles. His problem at times is decision making, but I like Felton leading my team more than either of those guys.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

You are correct, and I recognize that he's more disciplined than Marbury or the Franchise, I just mean it in the sense that I see him being a very poor judge of when its time to look for his own offense, and when its time to involve others. And in the pro game I could see him taking way too many shots. Felton just doesn't seem to have an intuitive feel for how and when to influence the flow of a game.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The good thing is, he's proven he could lead his team to a championship, unlike Marbury (Sweet Sixteen in only season) and Francis (Sweet Sixteen in only season). I think he'll be fine.

Deron Williams had 17 points and 7 assists and played terrific defense on Rashad McCants in the 2nd half.
Raymond Felton had 17 points and 7 assists and basically rendered Dee Brown utterly useless.

I think both acquitted themselves admirably.


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## StilltheChamp (Apr 8, 2005)

Both I believe will be great PG's. Felton is a super athlete and probably 5'11 but I think his athleticism makes up for that. Felton also is tough mentally I think he played part of the season with a cast or something like that hes also got good vision on top of everything. He definately has the makeup of a great point man but his knock is hes extremely turnover prone and also extremely erratic as well. 

Deron Williams in my mind at least, at this point is the better pg prospect. Everyone throws out the Andre Miller comparison but I just don't see it. Even though he doenst have that jitter bug quickness other Point Guards have, hes the whole package he's a monster defensively anyone who think hes won't be able to handle pgs on the pro level is just ignorant. He definately has Jason Kidd qualities about him uncanny vision, clutch, intense, a true floor general and underrated as an athlete but I wont say hes jason kidd though cause hes not. 

Both are going to be great but at this point i have'to give the edge to Deron Williams.


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## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

Both are gonna be great PGs in the league, both between the 2, I'll take Felton.


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## celtsb34 (Apr 22, 2005)

What about Chris Paul?


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

Shabadoo said:


> Often comparisons are made partly on complexion,


:laugh:, I never understood that either


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## Kobe8 (Mar 2, 2005)

Oh boy

Williams couldn't keep up with Jawad Williams, Garcia, McCants..

How the hell is going to keep up with Parkers and Nashs?

His defense on PG's will be horrible and in the NBA I doubt he"ll have Dee Brown to guard quicker guards.

He's SO slow.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

BigMac said:


> Deron Williams = Miller they both can't shoot and both are slow.


 DO you even watch College basketball? In the midst of writing this post I saw the date on it and I realized why no one took the time to respond to your post.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Kobe8 said:


> Oh boy
> 
> Williams couldn't keep up with Jawad Williams, Garcia, McCants..
> 
> ...


You obviously (as your location states) must be on the moon. You said that Deron couldn't defend? LOL. How many games have you seen him, because apparently you need to open your eyes. 

Also by that same token, who can Parker and Nash defend? It doesn't matter if a PG doesn't defend out of this world, because most of the great PG's can't be stopped by one defender anyway. 

Seriously how great a defender is/are Marbury, Francis, Arenas, Nash, Parker, Bibby, Miller, Ridnour, Brevin Knight, Jason Williams, Cassell and so on and on?

None of those guys are going to be on an all-NBA defensive team, so just stop it right now, because everytime someone talks about defense, they fail to mention that practically no starting NBA PG is a stopper. Baron Davis gets a lot of steals, but he gets burned on D an awful lot. Same with Iverson. 

Deron actually plays defense and guards people. Which is one of the main reasons Utah will draft him.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Kobe8 said:


> Oh boy
> 
> Williams couldn't keep up with Jawad Williams, Garcia, McCants..
> 
> ...


 This has to be one of the funniest post I've read in awhile. Williams might have some trouble with the quicker quards in the NBA, but in the NCAA he was arguably the best defensive guard of the whole NCAA tournament

He completely took Stoudemire and Garcia out and forced McCants into a poor games. I don't know what games you were watching to make such a ridiculous post


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