# Where did all this talent come from?



## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

Are HSers more talented now than they were in the past (before 95') or does it just seem so with more being drafted? It seems like every year there is a curry/stevenson/outlaw/miles/brown or some one of that "TYPE" that people try to proclaim as a True once in a lifetime player. I mean in 01' 02' 03' you got talents like Diop/Curry/Brown/Amare/Lebron/Outlaw/Ebi Perkins and now you got Josh/JR/Livingston/Telfair/Jefferson/Swift and of course Dwight Howard. Greg Oden is on his way too, so are HSers just learning more skills at a earlier age or what?


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

I think there are better coaches in AAU ball and more weight training at earlier ages. Kids are more athletic at an earlier age than they used to be and as a result you get uber-athletic freaks going directly to the NBA.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Lots of them arent all that great either. They just come in for the money and thats all.

$$$


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

a little of it is training.

most of it is just press and recognition.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

I think a lot of the reason we didnt see the Highschool Invasion pre '95 like we do now is that many players get lost in the college game. Coaches in college have total control and they can keep talented players down sometimes. Now many of you might say thats ridiculous but in college freshman players must "pay their dues" some coaches dont even like starting freshman. Coaches in college dont change their systems very often and some players dont do well in that system. Many players pre-Kevin Garnett were good enough to go straight to the pros but it just wasnt done and then they went to college and were supressed. This doesnt happen all the time and its just a theory. A typical example is Dajuan Wagner...super hyped highschool prospect that could have been a top 3 pick if hed have come out but college actually hurt his stock. LeBron would have had a tougher time comin out of college Im sure of it.


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## PatBateman (May 26, 2003)

easy answer


the hype machine, baby, the hype machine


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## prerak (Oct 22, 2003)

I think its a combination of many reasons, some of which have been mentioned here.

Jsimo brought up a great reason, and he has historical backing for it. Too often college coaches have to balance their personal wishes to develop a player and their responsbility to build a winning team (and keep their job). Sometimes this forces teams to play a player out of position, tell them to only play one way, etc.

Anyway, getting back to the HS issue, there are a points:

1. Weight training. Not simply that players are doing this more, but rather because the technology itself is getting better. More and more people are hitting their physical primes at younger ages. By the time they are 18 players are bulked up a in way unimaginable even to some NBA players in the 80s.

2. More scouting. While the players _have_ improved, the general public sees this change as sharper because they hear about these players so early on. Most basketball fans can name high school guys just as readily as college guys. Even magazines like Slam are perpetuating the college lifestyle.

3. AAU ball and "Shoe" camps. Nike, Reebok, etc. all of them. Now, these camps have existed for awhile, but they didn't get the publicity (or even the players) they do today. AAU competition has increased too because of national tournaments.

4. They're not better. Seriously, they're not THAT much better (the reasons above make them a bit better though). Except now we know about them. In the past we would simply learn about them after they won freshman of the year honors and such.


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## bballin (Jun 3, 2003)

players like garnett, kobe, o'neal, t-mac have all shown that HSers can make it in the league, and the NBA is a copy cat league, once it has been shown to work well, others copy it. Now that the HSers know they can get taken, its worth their while to stay in the draft. Also the threat of the age limit is making players jump so that they dont get caught "next year" if the league ever gets the limit in.


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## carayip (Jan 15, 2003)

I am sure there were many old players who could go straight from high school and become nba great players such as Shaq but they just didn't because it wasn't as a fashionable thing to do so at their time as of right now.


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

Were Carter/Pierce good enough (by todays standards) to come straight out of HS?


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## prerak (Oct 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kezersoze</b>!
> Were Carter/Pierce good enough (by todays standards) to come straight out of HS?


Eh, maybe, maybe not. Neither were as developed as some of today's HS stars. But Marbury probably could have declared out of High School.


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## CAnthony15 (Jun 14, 2003)

Don Nelson, when he was the coach of the Warriors, said that Jason Kidd could have been a low 1st round pick comming out of high school.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

I think Shaq probably could have done it; I'm not sure what his year at LSU did for him.


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## brighty (Apr 8, 2004)

i think all high school kids should wait till they look like lebron before they declare for the draft. lebron has a nba body and he knows that its not all about him, he is a team first kind of person.Most of the kids that come to the nba from high school usually are not that physically developed. Amare and Lebron in my opinion actually had nba bodies and that is why they were able to have success


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Most college guys don't have NBA Bodies either. Devin Harris would not be allowed to join the league under this system.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Kezersoze</b>!
> Are HSers more talented now than they were in the past (before 95') or does it just seem so with more being drafted? It seems like every year there is a curry/stevenson/outlaw/miles/brown or some one of that "TYPE" that people try to proclaim as a True once in a lifetime player. I mean in 01' 02' 03' you got talents like Diop/Curry/Brown/Amare/Lebron/Outlaw/Ebi Perkins and now you got Josh/JR/Livingston/Telfair/Jefferson/Swift and of course Dwight Howard. Greg Oden is on his way too, so are HSers just learning more skills at a earlier age or what?


Uhh...lack of solid college talent pushes everything back. When you pick the NCAA ranks clean of seniors and underclassmen, few players in college remain for the subsequent years. Thus, teams looking for talent must look toward the grassroots because the pickins are slim in the NCAA. Expansion can be blamed for sure. I would not say these players are terribly skilled for the most part. Only Amare and Lebron have and will make immediate impacts as HSers. These players would have all gone to college 10-15 years ago because there was enough NCAA supply to satisfy nba roster demands. There is now a short supply and more demand.


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## brighty (Apr 8, 2004)

most of the people that come from college that dont have nba bodies either usually struggle their first couple of years or either put on weight before the season starts. The college or high school players that usually are sucessful right off the bat usually have nba bodies just like lebron, dwyane, carmello


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

The obvious answer is that there really isn't more talent. Every one of these high school kids is projected to be "just like a young... [fill in the blank]"

However, going back through all the drafts it is rare for there to be even one guy who becomes a Bird or a Jordan. There have been a few drafts that have produced 6-7 all-stars. 

Clearly, most of these high schoolers will not become stars the problem is figuring out which one will become a Garnett and which one will become a Darryl Dawkins and which one will end up like Benoin Benjamin. It is truly a crapshoot at this point. That is why the league would be better off with an age limit or a minor league system like MLB and NHL.


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Nimreitz</b>!
> I think Shaq probably could have done it; I'm not sure what his year at LSU did for him.


No, I don't think Shaq was ready. In HS he was like 6'11 230 and not very skilled overall. He improved a lot in college.

The "post-Moses-Malone" and "pre-Kevin-Garnett" players who could have made the jump IMO.
1977: Magic Johnson (he had everything, incl. hype and skills)
1981: Patrick Ewing (one of the best highschool centers ever)
1988: Shawn Kemp (it looks like he made the jump out of high school, but in fact he didn't. He attended a junior college for one year)
1990: Damon Bailey (this guy was so incredibly hyped, and it looks so ridiculous today)
1994: Felipe Lopez (see D. Bailey)

Overall, I think, the perspective has changed. Before 1995, GM's would look for players who were good _now_, who were able to contribute _right away_. Even the sophomores in the Draft were clearly ready for the League (Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Chris Webber). After 1995 GM's were looking for the player with the most potential, the most upside. Whether a player is ready today or in 3 years doesn't matter, as long as he the best of his draft class within 10 years.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

I think everyone favors a minor league except the NCAA. Veterans can fill up the bench and required roster spots, and obviously raw players will be helped out a lot.


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

The influx of talent remains stable, but the volume of misinformation and desire to believe the misinformation continues to increase. There are really few phenoms, but because the gamble has had a recent history of great success with the likes of KG, Kobe, T-Mac, Amare, and LeBron, more and more teams are willing to take chances and buy the hype. And what proliferates this hype? Why the internet of course. Internet plays a big role in the hype machine of today.


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

how hyped was Damon Bailey?


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kezersoze</b>!
> how hyped was Damon Bailey?


Well, Indiana's Bobby Knight started recruiting him when he was in the 8th grade. He's Indiana's all-time career scoring leader with about 3,100.

Story on him

The one thing that I remember most about Damon Bailey is that my English textbook in school had a story of him. That was in the mid-90s, when most people in Germany didn't even know who Detlef Schrempf was.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Kezersoze</b>!
> Were Carter/Pierce good enough (by todays standards) to come straight out of HS?


I dont know, but Carter was very hyped (at least by the standards then) when he was coming out of high school.


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

any of you guys know what happened to 96' McDonalds All-American Lester Earl? dude was 6'8/9 230 throwing down some insane dunks  especially when he leaped over the basketball rack from a couple of feet from the basket!


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## cheezdoodle (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kezersoze</b>!
> any of you guys know what happened to 96' McDonalds All-American Lester Earl? dude was 6'8/9 230 throwing down some insane dunks  especially when he leaped over the basketball rack from a couple of feet from the basket!


He's in Spain, played for Zaragoza last year. You can see his stats here: 

http://www.feb.es/basketv/frontend/.../index_player/1,1348,10001-20252-5511,00.html

9 points, 7.5 rebounds per game on an average team. Nothing to write home about really.

Just goes to show you that there is more to basketball then just dunking.


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## deranged40 (Jul 18, 2002)

Lester could've been a good player if not for his knee problems he acquired in college.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bballin</b>!
> players like garnett, kobe, o'neal, t-mac have all shown that HSers can make it in the league, and the NBA is a copy cat league, once it has been shown to work well, others copy it.


That is the main reason a few high schoolers get drafted every year. Once there were some who succeeded, NBA GMs realized it wasn't as big of a risk as it was once thought taking a kid straight out of high school. Now they scout certain high school players as much as they scout college players, so they will discover all those kids that have the capability to make the leap. It's the same thing as the Euros, yes they have gotten better over the years, but have the really improved so much over the last 5-6 years that they can go from maybe 1 being drafted in the 1st round to double digit Euros being drafted? It's just it was clear they can succeed in the league so now there is more scouting over there and NBA GMs know it's no more of a risk taking a high school or Euro guy then it is to take a college guy.


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## #1BucksFan (Apr 14, 2003)

I don't think the influx of today started with Garnett. Sure, he started the superstars jumping to the NBA (kobe, TMac), but blame Al Harrington. He proved that you don't have to be a star, just a role player. People will always compare HSers to KG and TMac, but do you compare college players to Duncan or Iverson? This who thing about HSers having to be superstars is overrated. They can be a good role player and be sucessful without disappointing the "experts."

Chris Webber could have jumped straight to the NBA from HS.



> Originally posted by <b>Nimreitz</b>!
> I think Shaq probably could have done it; I'm not sure what his year at LSU did for him.


He was drafted #1 overall.


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## PhatDaddy3100 (Jun 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bender</b>!
> 
> No, I don't think Shaq was ready. In HS he was like 6'11 230 and not very skilled overall. He improved a lot in college.
> 
> ...


Tisk tisk, you dont mention Wilt Chamberlain or Oscar Robertson. Everyone in the 60s said Wilt could of done it, but you couldnt back then because the NBa had a rule against it. 

1. Philadelphia Allen Iverson Georgetown 
2. Toronto Marcus Camby Massachusetts 
3. Vancouver Shareef Abdur-Rahim California 
4. Milwaukee (a) Stephon Marbury Georgia Tech 
5. Minnesota (a) Ray Allen Connecticut 
6. Boston (from Dallas) Antoine Walker Kentucky 
7. LA Clippers Lorenzen Wright Memphis 
8. New Jersey Kerry Kittles Villanova 
9. Dallas (from Boston) Samaki Walker Louisvile 
10. Indiana (from Denver) Erick Dampier Mississippi State 
11. Golden State Todd Fuller North Carolina State 
12. Cleveland (from Wash.) Vitaly Potapenko Wright State 
13. Charlotte Kobe Bryant Lower Merion HS 
14. Sacramento Predrag Stojakovic PAOK (Greece) 
15. Phoenix Steve Nash Santa Clara 
16. Charlotte (from Miami) Tony Delk Kentucky 
17. Portland Jermaine O'Neal Eau Claire HS 

. Golden State Joe Smith Maryland 
2. LA Clippers (a) Antonio McDyess Alabama 
3. Philadelphia Jerry Stackhouse North Carolina 
4. Washington Rasheed Wallace North Carolina 
5. Minnesota Kevin Garnett Farragut Academy (Ill.) 
6. Vancouver Bryant Reeves Oklahoma State 
7. Toronto Damon Stoudamire Arizona 
8. Portland (from Detroit) (b) Shawn Respert Michigan State 
9. New Jersey Ed O'Bannon UCLA 
10. Miami Kurt Thomas Texas Christian 
11. Milwaukee (b) Gary Trent Ohio University 
12. Dallas Cherokee Parks Duke 
13. Sacramento Corliss Williamson Arkansas 
14. Boston Eric Williams Providence 
15. Denver (a) Brent Barry Oregon State 
16. Atlanta Alan Henderson Indiana 
17. Cleveland Bob Sura Florida State 
18. Detroit (from Portland) Theo Ratliff Wyoming 
19. Detroit (from Houston) Randolph Childress Wake Forest 
20. Chicago Jason Caffey Alabama 
21. Phoenix (from LA Lakers) Michael Finley Wisconsin 
22. Charlotte George Zidek UCLA 
23. Indiana Travis Best Georgia Teach 
24. Dallas (from New York) Loren Meyer Iowa State 
25. Orlando David Vaughn Memphis 
26. Seattle Sherell Ford Illinois-Chicago 
27. Phoenix Mario Bennett Arizona State 
28. Utah Greg Ostertag Kansas 
29. San Antonio Cory Alexander Virginia 


Look at this college draft class and you cna see why Kobe, KG and JO were the only ones drafted from hs that year. You dont have these kind of college draft classes anymore. And this has ultimely led to more hs players coming out.


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

> You dont have these kind of college draft classes anymore. And this has ultimely led to more hs players coming out.


 exactly but next years college class is going to be incredible with chris paul/raymond felton/Jr. Giddens/Marvin Williams /Mustafa, now this sounds alot like those mid 90's drafts.


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PhatDaddy3100</b>!
> Tisk tisk, you dont mention Wilt Chamberlain or Oscar Robertson. Everyone in the 60s said Wilt could of done it, but you couldnt back then because the NBa had a rule against it.


Well, I think I didn't mention Wilt and Oscar because I listed "Post-Moses-Malone" (1974) prepstars. 

Wilt Chamberlain (1955) could've made the jump.

Jerry Lucas (1958) as well.

And Lew Alcindor (1965).


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