# Why did we trade Elton Brand?



## nitric (Dec 14, 2006)

Even though he won ROY? I didn't watch the Bulls much after Jordan left but I started watching after we got Hinrich. What was the reason for trading off Elton? Anyone notice how when we trade a player to another team, the player becomes good?
Ex:
Eddie Curry is ripping it up in NY.
TC is averaging more RPG than Wallace.
Brand, well it's ELTON BRAND. :biggrin:


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## Bulls rock your socks (Jun 29, 2006)

cause we thought that curry and chandler would be the next Twin Towers aka David Robinson and Timmy Duncan


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## BeZerker2008 (Jun 29, 2006)

I believe the media got to him to make something happen, seeing as how brand, artest, & Miller didn't pan out he pulled the trigger for TC & drafted EC. Then later traded artest, miller & mercer for Rose, best & richardson. 

In krause's mind he thought by having two close to 7' that they would contribute right away and be dominant. Little did he know, had he gotten a good coach instead of his fishing buddy Tim floyd then who knows. 

I was upset when the trade was made & the organization is still looking bad after that deal. I would have liked to have seen how the Brand/Artest/Miller tandem would have progressed.


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## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

It's simple, really. *They loved Eddy Curry.* 

Curry is a scoring C, and Brand is a scoring PF. To top that off, they both aren't that big so the Bulls viewed that pair as small and not good enough defensively. Because of Baby Shaq's shortcomings on height and D, Elton had to go so they traded him for Comp-Town native, Tyson Chandler. If anyone remembers, Chandler was being compared to KG, or having that potential (what a joke). Now, all we're hearing lately about Chandler is that he's a poor man's Marcus Camby, which is pretty damnd sad. So in short, the Bulls liked Eddy Curry's potential more than Brand (all that "high ceiling" talk) and they thought Chandler was the better compliment to him. Had they liked Brand more, the Bulls would have gone with a bigger, defensive oriented Center at that time.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Bulls rock your socks said:


> cause we thought that curry and chandler would be the next Twin Towers aka David Robinson and Timmy Duncan


McHale and Parrish.

So I was told over and over again during those years.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

nitric said:


> Even though he won ROY? I didn't watch the Bulls much after Jordan left but I started watching after we got Hinrich. What was the reason for trading off Elton? Anyone notice how when we trade a player to another team, the player becomes good?
> Ex:
> Eddie Curry is ripping it up in NY.
> TC is averaging more RPG than Wallace.
> Brand, well it's ELTON BRAND. :biggrin:


I think it was partly because Krause fell in love with Curry and Chandler and partly because he was afraid Elton would bolt as a free agent.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Krause thought it would be tough to win a Championship building around Brand. He was shooting for Boom or Bust. (Bust = more lottery picks) Under that criteria, was he wrong?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Krause thought it would be tough to win a Championship building around Brand. He was shooting for Boom or Bust. (Bust = more lottery picks) Under that criteria, was he wrong?


No, but the criteria were. More than anything else, he just left a lot of better basketball players on the table at draft time.

Sure, you can't hit on every pick I guess, but if you're going to build through the draft, you better hit on the draft picks. I've got my criticisms of Pax, but he's not passed up much in the way of obviously better players yet.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

MikeDC said:


> I think it was partly because Krause fell in love with Curry and Chandler and partly because he was afraid Elton would bolt as a free agent.


More the latter than the former. Don't forget that by signing Chandler he delayed paying big bucks for a big man until 2005. Cheapskate Jerry had to like that feature of the trade.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Well for starters, he Jerry Reindsdork didn't want to pay Brand.

But it was also about Eddy Curry, if we didn't make the trade, LA Clippers would have taken Eddy Curry #2, Hawks taking Chandler #3....


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

Mebarak said:


> Well for starters, he Jerry Reindsdork didn't want to pay Brand.
> 
> But it was also about Eddy Curry, if we didn't make the trade, LA Clippers would have taken Eddy Curry #2, Hawks taking Chandler #3....


And the Bulls could of drafted Battier and all would of been fine with the world :biggrin:


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

L.O.B said:


> And the Bulls could of drafted Battier and all would of been fine with the world :biggrin:


Or they could have gotten Gasol and things REALLY, REALLY would have been fine.


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## Orange Julius Irving (Jun 28, 2004)

I think it was all about Jordan and his agent, was it Falk?

Elton Brand had Falk as an agent and it was rumored that Brand wouldn't re-up with the Bulls and they would be left with nothing. So Krause pulled the trigger to at least get a draft pick.

Notice that neither Curry nor Chandler nor any other Bull has had Falk as an agent during the Krause regime.

My conspiracy theory:

I know that back then Jordan was committed to torpedoing the franchise to make Krause look bad and told all Free-agents not to sign with the Bulls.

It also came down to Tracy McGrady NOT signing with the Bulls.
With McGrady the Team was:

McGrady SG
Miller C
Artest SF
Brand PF
? PG

That would have been a team vying for the finals.

When McGrady wouldn't sign, I think Krause felt he had to blow it up and start over. Bulls were good on D but horrid on O. 

I think when we traded Miller and Artest to Indiana they had about 20 pts between them and only blew up in Ind because they had better players surrounding them.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Orange Julius Irving said:


> I know that back then Jordan was committed to torpedoing the franchise to make Krause look bad and told all Free-agents not to sign with the Bulls.


Krause didn't need any help in torpedoing the franchise post Jordan. He did just fine by himself.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Brand looked more like a bordeline All-Star at best and since his game was more workmanlike than highlight real type play, it was debatable how much he would improve as he aged. He actually improved quite a bit topping 11 RPG, 50% FGP, and 2 BPG for the first time with the Clippers. Curry and Chandler on the other hand looked like the they had a good shot at superstardom without nagging concerns about whether or not they would resign.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

We traded All-Star Elton Brand because ya GOTTA swing for the fences and take big risks on potential.

Ya GOTTA.


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## Orange Julius Irving (Jun 28, 2004)

johnston797 said:


> Krause didn't need any help in torpedoing the franchise post Jordan. He did just fine by himself.



I think he was doing FINE as a GM until the year he had all that money and nobody would sign with The Bulls. That is a rarity, even the Clippers were able to build a decent team last year given Sterling's questionable history.
Jordan Rules.

The Bulls were one bad call away from a 4th consecutive trip to the finals, without Jordan. Would they have beaten Houston, who knows.

There was allot of bad luck with drafts that has somewhat continued to this day.

Look at Cleveland, they tanked a season and ended up with LeBron and everbody thought that was great.

Williams and his bike crash? Could he have had an impact like Chris Paul?

Bulls have had top five picks in 2 or 3 drafts in the post dynasty period but none where high enough or at a time when the best players were available.

The Carmelo, Lebron, Wade draft we just missed out on Wade.

Even Jordan wiffed when he had the top draft pick and basically set the franchise back. What happened in Washington with Jordan, I thought every great player would want to sign on, it never happened.

Phil Jackson helped Shaq and Kobe win 3 in LA, but has done not much since he drove out The Logo and now has to drive the Bus himself.

IMHO Krause should have taken Francis, who became an all-star his first or second season. Then the draft of Fizer would have made more sense. 

Lastly, I don't recall Brand being an All-Star while he was with the Bulls, nor was Miller or Artest. They became All-Stars when put in better situations, although I think Brand has only been an all-star once, right?

How many titles has Elton led the Clippers to? How many Play-off wins?

On a 15-win team, no one is an All-Star nor exempt from a trade.


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## mr.ankle20 (Mar 7, 2004)

Bulldozer said:


> It's simple, really. *They loved Eddy Curry.*
> 
> Curry is a scoring C, and Brand is a scoring PF. To top that off, they both aren't that big so the Bulls viewed that pair as small and not good enough defensively. Because of Baby Shaq's shortcomings on height and D, Elton had to go so they traded him for Comp-Town native, Tyson Chandler. If anyone remembers, Chandler was being compared to KG, or having that potential (what a joke). Now, all we're hearing lately about Chandler is that he's a poor man's Marcus Camby, which is pretty damnd sad. So in short, the Bulls liked Eddy Curry's potential more than Brand (all that "high ceiling" talk) and they thought Chandler was the better compliment to him. Had they liked Brand more, the Bulls would have gone with a bigger, defensive oriented Center at that time.


Brand would had been a great comliment for Curry since he can score , rebound and defend . Krause is a Moron .


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

It was all about Eddy Curry. 

The trade didn't get made until it became clear that Curry would be available when the Bulls were picking (#4). Krause viewed Brand and Curry as kind of the same type of player (post scoring big men with defensive limitations). In my view, he was right about this.

If Krause didn't take Curry, his most likely alternatives were Jason Richardson, Shane Battier or Eddie Griffin. Nice players, but Krause hated the idea of taking any of them with the 4th overall pick...he didn't see any of them as probable franchise players (he was right). 

The Clips wanted Brand and Chandler figured to be a perfect complement for Curry (a potential defensive/rebounding demon).

Where Krause made his mistake was in not seeing that Brand had the kind of character that would drive him to maximize his abilities and that Curry lacked this "intangible." He also failed to understand that there's such a thing as too much youth.

At the time, I was writing for a Bulls website. I didn't bash Krause then, so I can't bash him now. As I said at the time, it was a heckuva risk and very out of character for Krause.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

my .02.....i was NEVER a fan of krause's drafting. i'll give him credit where it's due but i thought he had far more misses than hits. for every pippen-grant, there was a benjamin, randall, bagaric (the worst i've ever seen in a pro uniform, lol), booth or houston. 

at any rate, i'd seen curry in high school in pressure situations during the IHSA tournament, and i felt: 1. he wasn't seven feet; 2. he wasn't even close to being a "beast" a la amare stoudamire; and, 3. he was only bigger, not particularly better than the kids he was playing against. i've stated it before and i'll state it here, curry SHOULD NOT have went straight to the pros. his advisors/parents/friends led him down the wrong path. 1-2 years of college and curry may very well have been an all-star player within his first couple of pro seasons. now in year six, he's stringing together 20 pt games for the first time ever; big deal, now he's worked his way to the major coin, but he's never established a work ethic that will take him to the next level.

trading brand *was* a mistake, however i hadn't seen chandler, i'd only read about him in SI and he seemed like a player who could have been the next KG, again however, krause's scouting was way off (with both players, i might add) in that chandler wasn't close to being ready for pro ball, strength-wise, skill-wise, nor mentally. and lo and behold, he's just now beginning to look like a professional, albeit one with major flaws in his game.

lastly, though i feel brand's trade was a mistake, in all honesty i wasn't against the trade. brand's game didn't appear to be one that led to wins; he's a complimetary piece, a wonderful role player, perfect for what the bull has now; i just couldn't see him sticking around with piss poor teammates and losing 50 games a year until the tide turned.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

BULLHITTER said:


> i'd seen curry in high school in pressure situations during the IHSA tournament, and i felt ... he was only bigger, not particularly better than the kids he was playing against.





BULLHITTER said:


> 1-2 years of college and curry may very well have been an all-star player within his first couple of pro seasons.


So why does 1 year of college change Curry? He still would have been BIGGER than anyone he played against.

Curry has signed deals guarantying him $70M dollars. He has an early opt-out close. If he doesn't opt-out, he potentially can sign yet another big deal when he is 30.

I really don't see how Curry has done badly for himself by going pro early. And I really don't see how 1 or 2 years in college really make any difference. Seems like he might have cost himself money.


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## ballerkingn (Nov 17, 2006)

As I recall the reason why we traded brand was a mixture of reason.

1. Krause/floyd felt that brand couldn't carry a team.
2. Krause thought that TC could really shot and be the next KG,and in this business your damed if u do and damed if u don't because no GM wants to be know for the 1 that passed up on the next KG,but no GM want's to be know for the 1 that drafted the next High School bust either,so it's a catch 22.

3.From what krause said,he didn't think brand and EC could play together so he chose EC over brand.

4. He didn't think Brand would re-sign,nor get along with brand agent who was MJ agent,and MJ hated JK.

5.From report's JK felt that he wasn't going to get either EC,or TC because i think the hawks wanted TC,and if the clips keep the pick they would have taken EC,thus leaving us at 4 with both EC,and TC gone.So once the deal was done and TC was off the board that's when ATL made the deal for pau gasol.

6.JK was to impatient and didn't like the direction of the team and felt at least with these 2 kid's he could get back to the playoff's and maybe win it all with having the next KG and Shaq on the same team.Boy was he wrong.

7.My fav 1 and last,JK still thinks Management When Championships not play's lol.


That's about it,i think i cover all the reason's why.


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## Orange Julius Irving (Jun 28, 2004)

johnston797 said:


> So why does 1 year of college change Curry? He still would have been BIGGER than anyone he played against.
> 
> Curry has signed deals guarantying him $70M dollars. He has an early opt-out close. If he doesn't opt-out, he potentially can sign yet another big deal when he is 30.
> 
> I really don't see how Curry has done badly for himself by going pro early. And I really don't see how 1 or 2 years in college really make any difference. Seems like he might have cost himself money.


I agree.

You can't argue with Curry's decision to enter the draft when he did based on monetary concerns. He's set for life unless he blows his money and doesn't make good investments.

On a skills basis, yes maybe college would have helped him become a more rounded player but probably could have hurt his draft status. His short-comings would probably have been more exposed in the college game.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

Here come my thoughts on that subject:

1. LA domination looked like nobody could compete against them for at least ten more years…why waste money on Brand ?! Brand's value at that time was very underrated (he was a good player in the bad team).

2. MJ's revenge and McGrady's stupidity.

3. Tim Floyd incompetence

4. And of course the biggest reasons were Jerry Reindsdork's greed and Cheapskate Jerry's arrogance.


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## Orange Julius Irving (Jun 28, 2004)

Bulls96 said:


> 2. MJ's revenge and McGrady's stupidity.


Say what you will, but if McGrady signs you have at least one championship 
with the follwoing lineup:

McGrady at SG
Artest SF
Brand PF
Miller C
Ollie PG (I think he was on the team at the time)

That was a Championship Team right there. Instead McGrady's only sniff was a 3-0 lead on Detriot that went to 4-3 loss while with the then hapless Magic.

If the above happens I realize that some people would still hate the Jerry's but Krause would still be a Bull and he would be considered a Genius GM.

Instead he's the biggest goat in sports history.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

Orange Julius Irving said:


> Say what you will, but if McGrady signs you have at least one championship
> with the follwoing lineup:
> 
> McGrady at SG
> ...


Did I say something different?

McGrady made a very stupid move by not signing with Bulls.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Maybe we win a championship, but maybe TMac's back gives out and Artest still goes crazy.

It's pretty hard to say.


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## Orange Julius Irving (Jun 28, 2004)

Bulls96 said:


> Did I say something different?
> 
> McGrady made a very stupid move by not signing with Bulls.


I agreed with that and was emphaszing the point. 

I think many people,even then, thought McGrady made the right decision, since many hate Krause and would rather see him fail and The Bulls loose in order to get rid of him than see the Bulls win and Krause succeed. Jordan being # 1.

Should have made more plain what I dispute, as follows:

I thought your point was # 4 was biggest reason, cheap jerry.

I am saying # 3 was biggest reason.

I don't think Jerry is cheap, just not willing to throw money at anyone like The NYKnicks.

He has proven he will spend money on deserving players.

Arrogant Jerry? Is that Krause? If Jordan had just given him a little credit for getting Pippen, Grant, BJ, and Pax, Krause would have been thrilled. But since Jordan hated Krause from day 1, it became a war that Krause could never have won. 

I think it was very petty for a guy of Jordan's stature not give JK his props. It's like High School jocks against the nerds.

You watch the Patriots after each Superbowl and everyone is giving everyone else credit for the win and that goes from Kraft the owner the GM to any player that is interviewed. They all thank everyone in the Organization.
Brady gets all the adualtion and the lion's share of the credit but he is willing to spread it around.

I always felt it was a PR move by MJ to even give Pippen credit and Phil only gets credit because Phil basically let MJ run the team through him.

That doesn't mean I don't think MJ isn't the greatest basketball player ever, it just doesn't automatically make him a decent human being, which I don't think he is. 

He did everything in his power to topedo the Bulls from the backrooms and did a great job.


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## Orange Julius Irving (Jun 28, 2004)

MikeDC said:


> Maybe we win a championship, but maybe TMac's back gives out and Artest still goes crazy.
> 
> It's pretty hard to say.



Artest, Miller and Brand all blew up when they got on teams that could score points.

Neither of those guys were scorers but were excellent defenders that could score points here and there.

A scorer was what was needed and Mercer, Barry, whomever they got wasn't going to work.

I don't think McGrady's back was an issue until Grant Hill went down and McGrady started carrying too big a load. Then later when he came back he started taking plays off and everything went downhill from there.

That and Doc Rivers is not a good coach.

I almost forgot about Floyd. He may have been the reason they might not have won a championship.

That was a mess but had nothing to do with shipping Brand out.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

I dont know what everyone is talking about. krause was going to lose his job for many bad decissions. So he comes up with this great idea. Draft two young high school students who are cant miss superstars and while they are developing fill in the rest of the pieces via the draft.

They he gets rid of miller and artest because they were holding back Chandler and Curry. At some point it became clear that krause is an idoit and he was fired.

By the way i met Krause once at a Wash / Chi game and chatted with him. What a dick. He was really an awful person and after meeting him it was so clear why MJ and Pippen could not stand him. He was really an awful person and he seemed to think it was cool or something. 

He had no BB experience and it really showed. Phil Jackson knew he had no BB knowlage. I think he is a door to door salesman now.

david


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

giusd said:


> They he gets rid of miller and artest because they were holding back Chandler and Curry.


False.




giusd said:


> He had no BB experience and it really showed. Phil Jackson knew he had no BB knowlage. I think he is a door to door salesman now.


His banner flies high at the UC. The greatest GM in Bulls history.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

MJ respected Doug Collins, Phil Jackson, Dean Smith, Bobby Knight, Jerry Reinsdorf, Tex Winters, Johny Bach, David Falk, Nike's CEO and lots of other coaches, assistant coaches and agents and business people.

Maybe MJ had his reasons for not liking OR respecting Krause. Starting with Footgate. 

Respect is not just given. It's earned.


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## Orange Julius Irving (Jun 28, 2004)

giusd said:


> He had no BB experience and it really showed. Phil Jackson knew he had no BB knowlage. I think he is a door to door salesman now.
> 
> david



The problem is I guess that 6 Titles isn't good enough for some people.
I am sure Celtics fans in the 60's were pissed they didn't get 9 in a row too.

It's a funny comment considering that Krause hired Phil out of obscurity. Surely no one else would have hired him.

The ONLY reason Krause got fired was it became obvious he would never be able to build a team with Jordan around. He tried to build a team of players that Jordan couldn't influence and wasn't able to succeed.

I also think Krause won a couple Executive of the year awards and whether you like it or not still had a hand in putting together the teams that won all 6 championships.

There are two ESPN specials that take out all the Chicago bias from the story and tell it pretty much down the middle, except for Jay Marriotti who essentially blames Reinsdorf for not intervening when Phil wanted the GM job and Jordan threatened to quit if Phil didn't get the job.

I am glad to some extent that I didn't live in Chicago during that time so I could enjoy the Titles and watch the games and not get pulled into all the emotional hatred stuff.

I remember after the 6-peat being in the hospital waiting for my wife and saying what great ownership the Bulls had and some lady living in Chicago told me about the hatred for the Jerry's. I laughed about it, but was also puzzled. I mean the Blackhawks ownership is bad, really bad.

I still think you've gotta give Krause credit for what he did right and what he tried to do. Because he obviously is getting all the blame anyway.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I never did figure out how you could trade away a sure 20/10 guy for a not so sure 20/10 guy.

A bird in hand is worth two HSers in the bush.

We had enough cap space we could have traded the p-p-p-ppotential kind of draft picks for someone established. Or one of the picks and taken a guy like JRch.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Orange Julius Irving said:


> The problem is I guess that 6 Titles isn't good enough for some people.
> I am sure Celtics fans in the 60's were pissed they didn't get 9 in a row too.
> 
> It's a funny comment considering that Krause hired Phil out of obscurity. Surely no one else would have hired him.
> ...



Look, watching one ESPN special doesn't give you the proper insight into the championship teams.

Example falsehood: Jackson never asked for the GM job.

I'd suggest you start by reading the Jordon Rules if you want to learn more about the situation.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

johnston797 said:


> Look, watching one ESPN special doesn't give you the proper insight into the championship teams.
> 
> Example falsehood: Jackson never asked for the GM job.
> 
> I'd suggest you start by reading the Jordon Rules if you want to learn more about the situation.


Just remember when you read the Jordon Rules that Phil Jackson was the inside source for a lot of the information in the book.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

narek said:


> Just remember when you read the Jordon Rules that Phil Jackson was the inside source for a lot of the information in the book.


Good point, although somewhat marginalized somewhat because Smith had an excellent grasp on the situation given he was the beat reporter back then and traveled with the team.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

What is J Krause doing right now. Is he a GM? Is he working in professional BB in some way? Is or was he on the short list of clubs looking to hire GMs? The fact is he was a weak GM and the players hated him and Pjac had zero respect for him. He never played BB in his life and knows jack about it. And i think he is a baseball scout for some AA team in the south. nuf said, period.

And if ever you met him within seconds you would sense what a jerk he is. Jordan could barely speak to him. 

Last time a checked Jerry Krause scored zero pts during the bulls six championships. But he did say organizations win championships not players. Really, i wonder if MJ agress with this because last time i check the bulls won six due to this guy, you know his initials are MJ.

word david


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

giusd said:


> What is J Krause doing right now. Is he a GM? Is he working in professional BB in some way? Is or was he on the short list of clubs looking to hire GMs? The fact is he was a weak GM and the players hated him and Pjac had zero respect for him. He never played BB in his life and knows jack about it. And i think he is a baseball scout for some AA team in the south. nuf said, period.
> 
> And if ever you met him within seconds you would sense what a jerk he is. Jordan could barely speak to him.
> 
> ...


Last time I checked, Krause has been with the Yankees in a similar role. How've they done?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

giusd said:


> And if ever you met him within seconds you would sense what a jerk he is. Jordan could barely speak to him.


Sorry. Michael Jordan's dislike of someone doesn't brand that person a jerk. It might even be a compliment.

Michael Jordan, other than being the greatest basketball player in history, is a self-centered *******. People love MJ because of talent and marketing - and thats fine. But the guy is also a womanizing, adulterous, team-mate punching, gambling addict, dickface. 

But everyone either wants to ignore the man behind the curtain or is blinded by the glow of his ridiculous skills. 

Michael Jordan is a first rate *******. Lets just get that out there and accept it.

As for Brand, MikeDC pretty much nailed it. Also, and for the life of me I can't find it anywhere anymore, I read an article after the trade in a Milwaukee newspaper wherein Elton Brand - quoted - stated very clearly that he had informed the Bulls that he had no intention of re-signing as a free agent. Elton Brand was gone one way or the other. So says Elton Brand. 

Krause decided to swing for the fences in the only way left to him. I admire him for it and understand why he did it. But he wiffed with a Dan-Patrick-quotable "You - You're not good" type of lose-your-balance-and-fall-down wiff. It happens. And it sucked.

But as K4E said, Krause is the greatest GM in the history of the Bulls. People seem to have no idea for how hard it is for a GM to build a dominant team, even with a dominant player in place. You all just watch and see how many rings dominant players like Wade, Kobe and LeBron win absent the right surrounding cast to make it happen. 

Certainly, without MJ, Krause would have never won a championship. But without Pippen, Phil, Grant, Harper, Kukoc, Rodman, etc., how many would MJ have won? 

Drop the BS. Krause did one of the greatest GMing jobs in history followed by a distinct failure that was grounded in a good idea under the circumstances.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

Well then MAYBE someone will explain to me why the GREATEST GM in the HISTORY of the nba is working as a minor league baseball scout. SERIOUSLY just tell why that. He was fired what 3 years ago. It seems to me the GREASTEST gm in the nba could find a job. He is a minor league baseball scout. 

And why i am at it i think i can safely say he will NEVER work in the nba again. Funny you would think the GREASTEST BB gm of all time could find some work. Bye bye crumbs dont let the door hit you on the way out.

WORD

david


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Michael Jordan, other than being the greatest basketball in history, is a self-centered *******. People love MJ because of talent and marketing - and thats fine. But the guy is also a womanizing, adulterous, team-mate punching, gambling addict, dickface.


That's about as even-handed as calling Scott Skiles a coke and pot addict, drunk driver, jackoff, dickface.



Ron Cey said:


> Krause did one of the greatest GMing jobs in history followed by a distinct failure that was grounded in a good idea under the circumstances.


If this is correct, why didn't another organization ever offer the guy a GM job?


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Sorry. Michael Jordan's dislike of someone doesn't brand that person a jerk. It might even be a compliment.
> 
> Michael Jordan, other than being the greatest basketball in history, is a self-centered *******. People love MJ because of talent and marketing - and thats fine. But the guy is also a womanizing, adulterous, team-mate punching, gambling addict, dickface.
> 
> ...


Nicely put.

I really don't know much about the drama behind "The Breakup". But Jerry Krause deserves a lot of credit for the team he assembled around MJ. He scored a lot of out-of-the-box moves, some are quite risky: Oakley for Cartwright, Scottie Pippen pick swap, Toni Kukoc, Dennis Rodman. Don't forget that he's the one that discovered PJax in the CBA.

true that the Brand trade happened because of the potential of Eddy-Tyson combo for years to come. And the outcome was one of the greatest example of the term "High Risk High Reward" in human history; the worst scenario of "High Risk High Reward" of course.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

RSP83 said:


> true that the Brand trade happened because of the potential of Eddy-Tyson combo for years to come. And the outcome was one of the greatest example of the term "High Risk High Reward" in human history; the worst scenario of "High Risk High Reward" of course.


one of the greatest examples in human history?

Bombing Pearl Harbor
Going into Viet Nam
Trading Elton Brand

Man, the hyperbole today.....

The Brand\Chandler trade isn't even close to one of the worse basketball moves in the last 20 years.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

giusd said:


> Well then MAYBE someone will explain to me why the GREATEST GM in the HISTORY of the nba is working as a minor league baseball scout. SERIOUSLY just tell why that. He was fired what 3 years ago. It seems to me the GREASTEST gm in the nba could find a job. He is a minor league baseball scout.
> 
> And why i am at it i think i can safely say he will NEVER work in the nba again. Funny you would think the GREASTEST BB gm of all time could find some work. Bye bye crumbs dont let the door hit you on the way out.
> 
> ...


I didn't say he was the greatest GM in history. I said he did one of the greatest GMing jobs in history followed by a complete failure. 

The complete failure is the most recent occurrence. And it appears as though his image among players in the league is damaged beyond repair - thanks in no small part to the petty antics of MJ (whom we all still love even though he was deliberately trying to sabatoge the success of the team we root for) and the grossly inaccurate media distortions of the break up of the Bulls dynasty that the ignorant masses cling to still today. 

Don't be confused by what I wrote. Krause needed to go when he did. He was done. I was glad when he was allowed to resign (was fired). If I owned an NBA team I would not hire him today either. His reputation is tarnished and he'd have severe trouble recruiting free agents in today's NBA.

But that doesn't mean that he wasn't great in his day.

penguin


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

I would say the ignorance lies with anyone that doesn't think that Krause didn't dig his own grave to a large extent.

Trust me, as a dynasty Bulls fan who cringed every time Krause had a press conference, Krause usually couldn't open up his mouth without saying something inappropriate.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

johnston797 said:


> Trust me, as a dynasty Bulls fan who cringed every time Krause had a press conference, Krause usually couldn't open up his mouth without saying something inappropriate.


I agree that he lacked charm and media savvy. No doubt about it. 

But charm isn't how he acquired Pippen for Polynice, helped revolutionize GMing and the NBA through the Kukoc draft selection, acquired Rodman for Perdue, and plucked Phil Jackson from the obscurity of the CBA. 

Bulls fans, in large part, don't like the guy because they mistakenly believe he broke their favorite toy.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> I didn't say he was the greatest GM in history. I said he did one of the greatest GMing jobs in history followed by a complete failure.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that he wasn't great in his day.


Great GMs avoid making one bad draft choice after another.

Tyson Chandler (2)
Eddie Curry (4)
Markus Fizer (4) 
Stacy King (5)
Brad Sellers (9)
Will Purdue (11)
Jason Caffey (20)
Jeff Sanders (20)
Dickey Simpkins (21)
Dalibor Bagaric (24)
Corie Blount (25)
Mark Randall (26)
Byran Houston (27)
Keith Booth (28)
Corey Bengemin (28)
Travis Knight (29)

That's quite a hall of shame. In each case there were better players on the board when he picked. He completely struck out when the pick was in the low 20s, where knowledge and skill are really called upon. 

Nearly half of his lottery picks ended up as low impact players :
Misses
Lee
Fizer
King
Sellers
Purdue
Williams

And some of the successful lottery pics are questionable (3 Cs)
Hits
Oakley
Grant
Pippen
Brand
Crawford
Curry
Chandler

Pippen, Grant, Brand and Kukoc were his best picks and he traded each of them away for lesser players or let them go outright (Grant) long before they were done playing. In each case the expense of their contract extension was a major factor in the decision.

Kraus trades:
His best trades were Polinice & picks for Pippen and Purdue for Rodman. 

Oakley for Cartwright was an even exchange of talent.

But the good trades don't excuse the rash of ill-advised trades at the end of the dynasty. The worst of these was unforgivable : Miller, Murcer & Artest for Jalen Rose -- a franchise busting trade if there ever was one. 


Add it all up and the Bulls should take down this fat midget's jersey from the rafters in United stadium.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> one of the greatest examples in human history?
> 
> Bombing Pearl Harbor
> Going into Viet Nam
> ...


:biggrin: 

hyperbole mood swings


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

McBulls said:


> But the good trades don't excuse the rash of ill-advised trades at the end of the dynasty. The worst of these was unforgivable : Miller, Murcer & Artest for Jalen Rose -- a franchise busting trade if there ever was one.
> 
> 
> Add it all up and the Bulls should take down this fat midget's jersey from the rafters in United stadium.


Let me first say that Jalen Rose is my least favorite Chicago Bull ever. But in the long run, was it really that bad? Paxson promptly fixed the error, Mercer stunk, and Artest single handedly destroyed the Pacers' chances at a championship *3 years in a row*. 

That is a trade for no one to be proud of, in my opinion. 

But I'm not arguing that Krause hadn't lost it in the end. He had. You'll get no argument from me. Those were his MJ-on-the-Wizards/Mays-on-the-Mets days. 

He was rightly fired. But none of it detracts from the very simple and unavoidable truth which is this: Krause made move after move to build what became *arguably* the most dominant dynasty in the history of American professional team sports.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Krause had some excellent moves during the championship days. No other GM was ever gifted the GOAT at the start of his carrier it's hard to fairly evaluate him. I think a much stronger case could be made other GMs like Donnie Walsh or Jerry West or Geoff Petrie over the last 20 years.



Ron Cey said:


> I agree that he lacked charm and media savvy. No doubt about it.


Don't forget lack of common sense and no lack of ego and arrogance.



Ron Cey said:


> Bulls fans, in large part, don't like the guy because they mistakenly believe he broke their favorite toy.


Krause wanted PJax gone. Krause wanted to rebuild. Krause didn't want Pippen back to go for championship #7 at the expense of a long-term contact. 

If Krause didn't have the authority to make this happen, should he be any less at fault for making this his recommendation and doing whatever he could to make it happen?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I agree that he lacked charm and media savvy. No doubt about it.


That's a bit of an understatement from some of the stories I recall. 



> But charm isn't how he acquired Pippen for Polynice, helped revolutionize GMing and the NBA through the Kukoc draft selection, acquired Rodman for Perdue, and plucked Phil Jackson from the obscurity of the CBA.


I think you're overselling his revolutionary effect. The Bulls didn't draft Kukoc until 1990 and didn't bring him over for a couple years after that. By that time Drazen Petrovic was already.

The Pippen for Polynice deal, IIRC, was simply a pre-arranged draft swap. Certainly Krause deserves a lot of credit for taking Pip, but I don't think he was some sort of steal any more than Tyrus Thomas for LaMarcus Aldridge might be.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> Sorry. Michael Jordan's dislike of someone doesn't brand that person a jerk. It might even be a compliment.
> 
> Michael Jordan, other than being the greatest basketball player in history, is a self-centered *******. People love MJ because of talent and marketing - and thats fine. But the guy is also a womanizing, adulterous, team-mate punching, gambling addict, dickface.
> 
> ...


Even the logo himself, often cited before this season as a success, is having a bad time nowadays in the 'Phis. 

Who are these genius GMs that outdid and are outdoing what Jerry did? Folks list out all these obscure players, but every GM has them.

I still believe the job Jerry did post-dynasty was quite ambiguous because he wasn't able to finish the job and J-Will got injured. Records together didn't show, but most of the players talents are, albeit elsewhere.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

The 6ft Hurdle said:


> E
> Who are these genius GMs that outdid and are outdoing what Jerry did?


To get this started, maybe I'll just list the GMs that haven't been any better than Krause this decade without Jordan:


*Worse*
Isiah

*Tie*
Billy Knight
Billy King
Kevin McHale


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I agree that he lacked charm and media savvy. No doubt about it.
> 
> But charm isn't how he acquired Pippen for Polynice, helped revolutionize GMing and the NBA through the Kukoc draft selection, acquired Rodman for Perdue, and plucked Phil Jackson from the obscurity of the CBA.
> 
> Bulls fans, in large part, don't like the guy because they mistakenly believe he broke their favorite toy.


He's the pioneer and the only person who succesfully built not just a championship team, but a dynasty around a high scoring SG. Other franchise have tried it, only the 76ers with Allen Iverson and Clyde Drexler's Blazers have come close to winning a championship. Toronto and Vince Carter, Lakers and Kobe (might win one, but a dynaty?), Cavs and Lebron James (we'll see how it turns out), Celtics and Paul Pierce, Heat and Dwyane Wade, Nuggets and Carmelo.

Krause made a lot of GM believe that there's a way to build a championship team around a high scoring swingman. Yeah I agree, he revolutionized the league. People in the past always talked about Wilt-West, Oscar-Kareem, Magic-Kareem, Doc-Moses, Frazier-Reed. After the Bulls, you hear Jordan and Pippen comparison thrown out forever by the media. Some franchise try to follow this model: Magic with Hill and T-Mac, Lakers with Kobe and Odom, Sonics with Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

The 6ft Hurdle said:


> Even the logo himself, often cited before this season as a success, is having a bad time nowadays in the 'Phis.
> 
> Who are these genius GMs that outdid and are outdoing what Jerry did? Folks list out all these obscure players, but every GM has them.
> 
> I still believe the job Jerry did post-dynasty was quite ambiguous because he wasn't able to finish the job and J-Will got injured. Records together didn't show, but most of the players talents are, albeit elsewhere.


I agree with the exception that I think Krause pretty clearly failed in rebuilding the Bulls. But I think this was as much due to circumstances, misperceptions and outright falsehoods, as it was due to bad decision making (I think its a mix - bad decision making was definitely part of it). I very much understood what Jerry was going for with most of the moves he made. Its just that in hindsight they didn't work out (understatement).


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I agree with the exception that I think Krause pretty clearly failed in rebuilding the Bulls. But I think this was as much due to circumstances, misperceptions and outright falsehoods, as it was due to bad decision making


Nice hedge. I blame complete suckitude. Let's look at a small sample.

--------------------------------------------------

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2001.html

Our PGs for the 2000-2001 juggernaut that went 15-67. Our 3rd year of rebuilding.

Khalid El-Amin, Bryce Drew, Jamal Crawford & A.J. Guyton 

Three rookies and a third yr player that had been 3rd string the year before.

--------------------------------------------------

Yep, this guy clearly was revolutionary in his thinking of how to put together a team when he had to start from scratch. I think he was already spending the bulk of this time scouting triple A baseball.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

McBulls said:


> Great GMs avoid making one bad draft choice after another.
> 
> Tyson Chandler (2)
> Eddie Curry (4)
> ...


I feel so good reading this :clap2:


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## r1terrell23 (Feb 11, 2006)

nitric said:


> Even though he won ROY? I didn't watch the Bulls much after Jordan left but I started watching after we got Hinrich. What was the reason for trading off Elton? Anyone notice how when we trade a player to another team, the player becomes good?
> Ex:
> Eddie Curry is ripping it up in NY.
> TC is averaging more RPG than Wallace.
> Brand, well it's ELTON BRAND. :biggrin:


Tyson Chandler was supposed to be the next Kevin Garnett and Brand wouldn't have resigned with us. Too bad TC still isn't KG.


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