# League investigating Bruce Bowen's foot under you defense.



## eddymac (Jun 23, 2005)

League probing Francis' injury
Saturday, November 11, 2006
BY DAVID WALDSTEIN

HOUSTON -- Stu Jackson, the NBA's czar of discipline, said he was investigating Bruce Bowen's foot maneuver that led to Steve Francis' injury Monday. He also said there would not be a suspension, meaning Bowen will be available to play against the Knicks tonight in San Antonio.

Francis' availability is a "game-time" decision, according to Knicks coach Isiah Thomas.

Bowen has done the same thing to Vince Carter (twice), Carmelo Anthony, Ray Allen and Vladimir Radmanovic, which is why Jackson is looking into it. But Jackson said he was concerned only that the Spurs forward has a tendency -- not necessarily intentional -- to move his feet under shooters when they jump. If so, Jackson simply wants to help him stop, but there won't be any disciplinary action.
"Oh, no," Jackson said. "In the past he hasn't allowed the shooter to come down. I'll look at the video evidence and see if it's the technique that he's using so that he can avoid in the future."

Jackson, who was at the Toyota Center last night, acknowledged that a foul should have been called on the play, in which Bowen stuck his left foot under Francis' left foot as he was coming down. Francis sprained his left ankle and has missed two games, including last night's against the Rockets.

Thomas wouldn't come out and say the play was dirty, but said he would have handled it differently if someone had done it to him.

"I'd beat the (stuffing) out of somebody," he said. "Really, I would. That's murder. Excuse me, but in the NBA, when you're in the air, you're really exposed and there's a certain code. Since grade school, the guy's up in the air, at any point in time you want to, you can take a guy out. There's certain things you just don't do."


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

4 words...


It's about damn time...


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

OneBadLT123 said:


> 4 words...
> 
> 
> It's about damn time...


...


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Also, didnt he do it to Wally or some other Celtic? (forgot which one)


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

OneBadLT123 said:


> 4 words...
> 
> 
> It's about damn time...


It's, is short for it is. So that could be considered five.......


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Dr.Seuss said:


> It's, is short for it is. So that could be considered five.......


But I used a contraction so, it makes "It is" one word: It's


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## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

about time bruce is dirty


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

All I'm wondering is why other players haven't done it back to him every time he attempts a jump shot. I sure would, especially if I was VC.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

OneBadLT123 said:


> Also, didnt he do it to Wally or some other Celtic? (forgot which one)


bowen jump kicked wally in the face. 

and if some other player did it back to him it would look more intentional. thus getting bigger punishment


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

OneBadLT123 said:


> But I used a contraction so, it makes "It is" one word: It's


 
contracted words still count for 2.



What am I the grammar police today????



:angel:


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

OneBadLT123 said:


> 4 words...
> 
> 
> It's about damn time...


 co-sign


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## Like A Breath (Jun 16, 2003)

OneBadLT123 said:


> Also, didnt he do it to Wally or some other Celtic? (forgot which one)


Actually, he did it to Vince Carter and Ray Allen, I believe.

He did THIS to Wally


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## The lone wolf (Jul 23, 2003)

jesus christ - wtf??


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## D.J. (Mar 9, 2006)

These are the situations where you wish guys like Alonzo Mourning or Karl Malone were still in their primes. They wouldn't hesitate to elbow Bowen in the face.


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## kisstherim (Jul 15, 2004)




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## Futurama_Fanatic (Jul 21, 2005)

kisstherim said:


>


yeah Bruce Bowen should get his *** kicked.


why is Jackson going soft on Bowen?


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

He's going soft because Bowen is on the spurs, and riding on Duncan's good image.

For all the talk, even now, he'll probably get away with it w/ just a slap on the shoulder. The only way to stop him from doing it is to injure him.


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## Futurama_Fanatic (Jul 21, 2005)

KennethTo said:


> He's going soft because Bowen is on the spurs, and riding on Duncan's good image.
> 
> For all the talk, even now, he'll probably get away with it w/ just a slap on the shoulder. *The only way to stop him from doing it is to injure him.*


or fine/suspend him. or get kicked in the face by Wally or have Francis and VC beat him up.


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## BullSoxChicagosFinest (Oct 22, 2005)

Sure it happens in NY and they wake up *******s


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Bowen needs to be sucker punched. Caught when he's not looking; on the clip shown above he does it with either foot. Thats just real dirty. he would have been dealt with in the 80's NBA.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

Finally. I am really getting sick of this guy.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

D.J. said:


> These are the situations where you wish guys like Alonzo Mourning or Karl Malone were still in their primes. They wouldn't hesitate to elbow Bowen in the face.


If they did, it would probably make a lot of people look like sissies for complaining, because I seriously doubt Bruce Bowen would go crying to the media about an elbow, like some players and fans do about Bowen.


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## JoeD (Sep 2, 2004)

I don't even get what Bowen gets out of it. Taking Francis out doesn't help him. He won a championship without playing especially dirty and was really key in the finals playing like that. He just must be psychopathic or something.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

the comments in this post are amusing to say the least...go on


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

[B said:


> JoeD]I don't even get what Bowen gets out of it. Taking Francis out doesn't help him. He won a championship without playing especially dirty and was really key in the finals playing like that[/B]. He just must be psychopathic or something.


ummmm...exactly. it doesn't benefit him. therefore he doesn't intend to do it. do you really think bowen intended to injure ppl? especially steve francis in november? be serious. if bowen intended to do these things, everytime we play the lakers, kobe would be injured, so would t-mac, so would every damn person he guards for 82 games in his long career. the only reason he gets called out for it is because he gets under ppl's skin with his defense. MANY ppl sprained other ppl's ankles by them landing on their foot, and more than once too. but no one cares about them. they only care about bowen because he shuts down their favorite player. geez, intentionally hurting steve francis is probably doing the knicks a favor. and isiah thomas should never speak...ever...again...until he is fired


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## JoeD (Sep 2, 2004)

If he doesn't intend to do it, then why does it keep happening with him over and over? I mean, damn, he is the guy who did a flying martial arts kick on Wally Sczerbiak. He's obviously psycho.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

This guy's a lot worse than Ron Artest. Why? 'Cause he's smarter and he doesn't get caught. 

But Stu Jackson can't be blamed in this scenario -- they should always act with enough evidence. Sure, Bowen's been in cases like these before but how can someone tell if there's real intention or not? It's quite impossible so any action they take will have corresponding repercussions from those who don't agree due to the lack of evidence that proves Bowen 100% guilty of *intentionally* injuring players.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> ummmm...exactly. it doesn't benefit him. therefore he doesn't intend to do it. do you really think bowen intended to injure ppl? especially steve francis in november? be serious. if bowen intended to do these things, everytime we play the lakers, kobe would be injured, so would t-mac, so would every damn person he guards for 82 games in his long career. the only reason he gets called out for it is because he gets under ppl's skin with his defense. MANY ppl sprained other ppl's ankles by them landing on their foot, and more than once too. but no one cares about them. they only care about bowen because he shuts down their favorite player. geez, intentionally hurting steve francis is probably doing the knicks a favor. and isiah thomas should never speak...ever...again...until he is fired



Wrong, again. Ready to learn something?

1. It does benefit him. Why? Because every single time a player goes up in the air to shoot on him, guess what's in the back of their mind? Certain things can take players out of their game and bother them, sliding under them would fit the bill.

2. Bowen knows exactly what he is doing, and there is no way to justify the move. You can contest a jumper without kicking or stretching your leg out under a player.


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

Apparently, he tried to do it again tonight: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=261111024



> *Bruce Bowen** and Knicks coach Isiah Thomas each got a technical in the first quarter after Thomas yelled something toward Bowen after a Knicks player shooting a jumper landed on Bowen's foot. Knicks guard **Steve Francis** was hurt the same way in the first quarter Monday* -- with some Knicks players feeling Bowen intentionally jumped under Francis -- and hasn't played since that game.
> 
> 
> Spurs coach Gregg Popovich also entered the fray with a back-and-forth with Thomas, but wasn't called for a technical.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

LOL

_Spurs coach Gregg Popovich also entered the fray with a back-and-forth with Thomas, but wasn't called for a technical._

Typical!


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## BullSoxChicagosFinest (Oct 22, 2005)

Just saw the highlight, did it again to Crawford! LOL @ Isiah and Popovich going at it, one of the few times in my life I will agree with Isiah


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

He tries it again on Jamal Crawford tonight. He needs to be suspended for 20 games. This **** is getting out of control.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Yeah, it's well known that Bowen is dirty. Hopefully he gets suspended for the playoffs too.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

one of the few times I applaud Isiah

somebody needs to knock Bowen out...this is ridiculous.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

stu can investigate by asking bruce's former teammates.

I wonder if he does this "technique" during practice.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

duncan2k5 said:


> ummmm...exactly. it doesn't benefit him. therefore he doesn't intend to do it. do you really think bowen intended to injure ppl? especially steve francis in november? be serious. if bowen intended to do these things, everytime we play the lakers, kobe would be injured, so would t-mac, so would every damn person he guards for 82 games in his long career. the only reason he gets called out for it is because he gets under ppl's skin with his defense. MANY ppl sprained other ppl's ankles by them landing on their foot, and more than once too. but no one cares about them. they only care about bowen because he shuts down their favorite player. geez, intentionally hurting steve francis is probably doing the knicks a favor. and isiah thomas should never speak...ever...again...until he is fired


Yea man. Let's look at all the people he_ didn't _ injure. There's no way he can be dirty!


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## G-Force (Jan 4, 2005)

bballlife said:


> Wrong, again. Ready to learn something?
> 
> 1. It does benefit him. Why? Because every single time a player goes up in the air to shoot on him, guess what's in the back of their mind? Certain things can take players out of their game and bother them, sliding under them would fit the bill.
> 
> 2. Bowen knows exactly what he is doing, and there is no way to justify the move. You can contest a jumper without kicking or stretching your leg out under a player.


Exactly right. Bowen does benefit from his dirty play, or he would not be doing it. And don't tell me that all of his incidents were unintentional. He is getting by with it and will continue to do so until the NBA does something about it.

One of these days, he is going to pull this crap on the wrong player and someone will immediately retaliate. And millions of fans will stand up and cheer.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

i hope some guy who doesn't get playing time socks the living **** out of him... someone who can hold his own, like mo evans.

no human being naturally sticks their feet out like that. it's an acting job, he's making it seem as if he's doing that by nature...


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

I don't know why the NBA's always turning a blind eye on this.


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## chn353 (Mar 12, 2006)

*No Masking Please*


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## BullSoxChicagosFinest (Oct 22, 2005)

We need a goon!


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

i wonder if players dont sock him in the head cuz they feel sorry for him cuz hes **** eyed :curse: 
who cares damnit someone just punch him right in the face ive hated him for a while 
but the league wont do nothing...maybe when he does it to LeBron and ends his career or something...they might take it serious :curse: :curse: 
i hope he breaks his ankle one game or something someone pulls the same thing on him....i cant wait
till this guy is out the league geesh :curse: :curse:


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## theflyballa (Aug 8, 2006)

About time they look into Bowen's psychopathic nature. Someone should knock his *** out.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

bballlife said:


> Wrong, again. Ready to learn something?
> 
> 1. It does benefit him. Why? Because every single time a player goes up in the air to shoot on him, guess what's in the back of their mind? Certain things can take players out of their game and bother them, sliding under them would fit the bill.
> 
> 2. Bowen knows exactly what he is doing, and there is no way to justify the move. You can contest a jumper without kicking or stretching your leg out under a player.


so true


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

theflyballa said:


> About time they look into Bowen's psychopathic nature. Someone should knock his *** out.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. If the League isn't doing anything about it, the players should, old school style:

- Bowen tries to undercut Carter, Carter throws a punch. comotion and both teams tangle themselves. In the post-game intreview, Carter says he isn't going to take a player trying to injure others and have his career in jeopardy. Carter gets suspended for 5 games. 

- Next game, it's Kobe/Wade/Lebron/Pierce. Bowen makes the move, he gets punched. Comotion and both teams tangle themselves. In the post-game intreview, Kobe/Wade/Lebron/Pierce says he isn't going to take a player trying to injure others and have his career in jeopardy. Kobe/Wade/Lebron/Piercegets suspended for 5 games. 

THEN, the league will be forced to act.


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## Futurama_Fanatic (Jul 21, 2005)

carrrnuttt said:


> Apparently, he tried to do it again tonight: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=261111024


yeah he should get his *** kicked.

duncan2k5 why are you defending this guy? are you just waiting for him to get kobe ?


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

if a shooter jumps to shoot, then bowen contests the shot, that means he is jumping TOWARD the person, which means that he will probably end up under them. i play basketball a lot. and if a person is shooting, and im not close to them, but i run towards them to contest the shot, my momentum usually makes one of my feet go under theirs. most times i move out of the way before they land on me, but at least twice ppl landed on my ankle. they didnt get hurt at all, but that goes to show it can happen unintentionally. and bowen plays more defense than anyone in the NBA, which accounts for the incident happening to more than one person.


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## Chalie Boy (Aug 26, 2002)

For some reason I knew duncan2k5 would be the one and ONLY one to come in here and defend Bowen. Its ok to be a Homer....but this is out of control. Why hasn't anyone knocked Bowen out yet? I don't really condone of this type of stuff on the court...but you can't say that Bowen isn't asking for it by trying to hurt players!


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

ClippersRuleLA said:


> yeah he should get his *** kicked.
> 
> duncan2k5 why are you defending this guy? are you just waiting for him to get kobe ?


lol...shhhhh... :angel: 

buh seriously...meen tink he doin it on purpose


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## Futurama_Fanatic (Jul 21, 2005)

duncan2k5 said:


> if a shooter jumps to shoot, then bowen contests the shot, that means he is jumping TOWARD the person, which means that he will probably end up under them. i play basketball a lot. and if a person is shooting, and im not close to them, but i run towards them to contest the shot, my momentum usually makes one of my feet go under theirs. most times i move out of the way before they land on me, but at least twice ppl landed on my ankle. they didnt get hurt at all, but that goes to show it can happen unintentionally. and bowen plays more defense than anyone in the NBA, which accounts for the incident happening to more than one person.


did you ever perform the Bruce Bowen jump kick?


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

If Thomas "didn't think it was intentional" then why the hell did he yell at Bowen?


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## jordan0386 (Jul 4, 2006)

Crafty mf'er if I ever saw one...Dont know why people are so mad...he is fading as a baller, retirement soon...Seems like he would be a good asst. coach however

Always loved his rags to riches story, of how he used to call colleges pretending to be a coach, to get scouts to come to his games and such


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

The Knicks that do this, even if they aren't hurt by it, need to fall back like they are anyways, but while falling down, kick Bowen in the nuts really really really hard, it wasn't intentional, they were just falling down. : D


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## NyXpun (Apr 22, 2004)

i dont really get why bowen is so beloved by nba analysts reporters etc. i mean is being a good defender make u that popular even though u never avg over a steal per season or even a block a game your whole career? never even 4 rebounds a game. is his defense really that pivotal during a game? besides the fact that u never avg over 9 points a game ur whole career?


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

NyXpun said:


> i dont really get why bowen is so beloved by nba analysts reporters etc. i mean is being a good defender make u that popular even though u never avg over a steal per season or even a block a game your whole career? never even 4 rebounds a game. is his defense really that pivotal during a game? besides the fact that u never avg over 9 points a game ur whole career?


It's because he's on the Spurs and uses his dirty tactics and has a widely regarded "classy" player like Duncan backing him up.

Duncan, I never liked him, I do like Ginobili though, despite his Argentinian acting and flopping.

I just can't stand how people are praising Bowen all the freakin' time when he's out there to injure people. Think about it, his "rags to riches" story... whoever said he's a psychopath was right, obtaining riches from rags means he probably did almost anything he could to get there... so putting his foot underneath a shooter and having his "what's your problem" attitude is his version of "yo man, i'm just tryin' to get rich *****"

If Bowen injures any of the Clipper players, I'll try to curse the Spurs in some way, like making a website to expose how dirty of a team they are.


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## Ryethe (Nov 15, 2003)

My question becomes, why has this never happened to spurs in practice? During the year you practice more than you play games (roughly) and yet this has ONLY happened in games. If Bowen was doing this unintentionally, then probability will tell us that at least one Spur should have had his ankle injured as well in this manner.

Intentional or not, a Flagrant Foul can still get you an suspension and in my mind this kind of action is at least a flagrant foul 1. Regardless of whether it's intentional or not, it's Bowen's responsibility to get it under control


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

Mebarak said:


> The Knicks that do this, even if they aren't hurt by it, need to fall back like they are anyways, but while falling down, kick Bowen in the nuts really really really hard, it wasn't intentional, they were just falling down. : D


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mebarak again.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Shaq did it to Nowitski in the finals, get on his case too.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

rainman said:


> Shaq did it to Nowitski in the finals, get on his case too.


shaq doesn't have an extensive history of doing it....you got to give most players the benefit of the doubt, as this play could very well happen accidentally..

Bowen, who has done it way too many times to still be accidental, is who you need to get on.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> shaq doesn't have an extensive history of doing it....you got to give most players the benefit of the doubt, as this play could very well happen accidentally..
> 
> Bowen, who has done it way too many times to still be accidental, is who you need to get on.


i agree they should crack down on Bowen although i dont know what you could do but call it a foul. as for Shaq all you have to do is watch the replay to realize it was intentional and it isnt the first time that he has gone out of his way to take someone out.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Ryethe said:


> My question becomes, why has this never happened to spurs in practice? During the year you practice more than you play games (roughly) and yet this has ONLY happened in games. If Bowen was doing this unintentionally, then probability will tell us that at least one Spur should have had his ankle injured as well in this manner.
> 
> Intentional or not, a Flagrant Foul can still get you an suspension and in my mind this kind of action is at least a flagrant foul 1. Regardless of whether it's intentional or not, it's Bowen's responsibility to get it under control


Because he is doing it on purpose. It is 100% intentional. How many guys has he done this to now? Quite a few and Vince and Ray Allen have both gone public with their complaints. 

Stu Jackson ignores it because he is an idiot, who knows nothing about basketball, and does not understand how truly dangerous this move is.


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## yuyuza1 (May 24, 2006)

I have mixed emotions on this issue.

I was playing a pickup game with my friends this weekend, and ran upto a guy who was shooting a 3, and slid under him after running all the way from the below the basket. It was obviously inadvertent, because -as someone here has already mentioned- the momentum makes it very hard to stop after running hard. 

However, after watching some of the videos I have seen of Bowen's defense, I am not sure if he's completely innnocent. I mean, he was in Carter's shirt and somehow, his feet mysteriously "slid" under him, by kicking his legs forward. That seems as far from unintentional as possible. He also gets away with so much more than other players in the league. His reputation and his team's success are the only reasons he's being treated differently.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

"Help him stop"? It's not a drug addiction. If he does it again, suspension. That's helping him stop.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

rainman said:


> i agree they should crack down on Bowen although i dont know what you could do but call it a foul.


Yes. Call a foul.

This whole Bruce Bowen "problem" really isn't a problem with Bruce Bowen as much as it is the complete failure of the NBA to officiate properly. (of course, we all know this is but one of several areas where NBA officiating STINKS).

The rules state a player in the air must be given the space to land safely. When a jump shooter goes straight up or nearly straight up in the air, and Bruce Bowen, or any other defender ends up in their landing space - BAM! foul. Doesn't matter if Bowen twisted some guys ankle or not.

Had the rules been enforced properly, this unfair technique of Bowen would not have become a part of his psychological head game "defense". He couldn't do it often or he would foul out of every game.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Masbee said:


> Yes. Call a foul.
> 
> This whole Bruce Bowen "problem" really isn't a problem with Bruce Bowen as much as it is the complete failure of the NBA to officiate properly. (of course, we all know this is but one of several areas where NBA officiating STINKS).
> 
> ...


That's what bothers me... It's obvious Bowen isn't trying to block shots (this could eventually explain why he lands on the shooter landing space). He just gets near the shooter and gets under him after he shoots. It's an obvious move. I don't know why he hasn't been suspended yet.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

People say that Bowen just playing hard defense and its accidental. Artest is known for his scrappy defense as well. Why hasnt the same thing happened with him on numerous occasions Look at the other premier defenders in the league. Why is it that these incidents only seem to happen with Bowen?? its cuz hes dirty imo.


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

I found this on a Spurs board:



> If anyone wants to see classic Bruce Bowen "footwork" just check out Game 7 of the 2005 Finals in the 4th qtr around the 2:03 mark. I know every Spur fan has that game lol. After fouling Billups Bruce just decides to trip him as he's coming down which buckles Chauncey's knee (and ankle). Of course he uses the classic Dennis Rodman "look-away" to play it off. Then he has the nerve to go try to help Billups up like he's Mr. class act. Of course Billups didn't accept Bruce's "gracious" gesture and shook it off.
> 
> That's classic Bruce Bowen. He always knows what he's doing with his feet. He's a dirtbag. And don't give me the hard defense crap because as anyone can see that play happened after the whistle had blown. Spurs homers will continue to keep their head in the sand and pretend not see plays like that.


The "hit-parade" continues. More and more examples popping up, now that everyone, not just the fans of the team with a player he injured, are talking about this.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

It's hard to tell if it's intentional. He does this scissor kick
that doesn't look like he's aiming. It just seems like a habbit
rather then a decieving move. 

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## Futurama_Fanatic (Jul 21, 2005)

Dr.Seuss said:


> It's hard to tell if it's intentional. He does this scissor kick
> that doesn't look like he's aiming. It just seems like a habbit
> rather then a decieving move.
> 
> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/drPQkEsM8uM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/drPQkEsM8uM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


the one on Crawford looks very intentional


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## maradro (Aug 2, 2003)

Ryethe said:


> My question becomes, why has this never happened to spurs in practice? During the year you practice more than you play games (roughly) and yet this has ONLY happened in games. If Bowen was doing this unintentionally, then probability will tell us that at least one Spur should have had his ankle injured as well in this manner.
> 
> Intentional or not, a Flagrant Foul can still get you an suspension and in my mind this kind of action is at least a flagrant foul 1. Regardless of whether it's intentional or not, it's Bowen's responsibility to get it under control


I read up to here because this is a good point.

it has happened to the spurs in practice, several times. i guess its in the spurs and bowen's interest for manu or duncan to be out. (which has happened from scrimmage accidents)
this happen across the league. in fact francis did retaliate in that first knicks game, sticking his foot under a manu 3pter. i guess it happens more when you play hard.

my theory, the only reason bowen is on a court is to play d. he contests everything, constantly guards league stars, but hes aging. so as bowen is later on his timing he is going to be more dangerous. In all those clips, bowen is playing hard D. He is getting his hand in their faces but he makes contact hence a foul (in wally's case, bowen closed out on the 3, and wally sidestepped right into his foot. he literally runs into it. the game isnt slow-mo like these vids) you cant demonstrate that bowen is the only player to have been under someones rolled ankle, it just happens to him more because he contests more, even when he probably should just let it go.

if the league wants to emphasize that you can now play less defense (reggie miller would have loved this change, kick out Js all day long) fine, but dont just pick on bowen because he has a bad rep with allen, carter, and francis (who are the only ones to be really injured), of which francis says it was unintentional, and carter and allen, who arent really known for being tough. Bowen gets in their heads, they get injured, and they think it was intentional when its not.

And to be exact, part of bowens rag to riches story is that he got a university degree in public relations during an nba season, so you see hes a hard worker and hes interested in his image, and he participates in loads of community workshop type things. 

I wonder if some of the people who want to ban or suspend bowen feel the same way about bell, artest, sheed, karl malone, juwon howard, piertrus, evans, fortson, and the hundreds of other players who out of sheer chance were under someones ankle. Those who actually play basketball here will know this happens in games with frequency.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

If other teams want Bowen to _stop_ pulling this bull**** they should start having their defenders do it to Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli on a regular basis. If Parker and Ginobli are continuously getting hurt by the same tactics that Bowen employs, then Pop will tell him to shut the kit. It really is that simple. Fighting with a goon doesn't really teach the other guy a lesson, turning the goon's tactics on the other team's stars, however, will.


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## jordan0386 (Jul 4, 2006)

You box out with your ***, not your feet


I play ball...lets say 6 hours a week...its never happened, to anyone in the gym...its a cheap shot


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## maradro (Aug 2, 2003)

and having read what the last comments, agreed, the correct reaction is just consistently call what is is, a foul.


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

maradro said:


> Those who actually play basketball here will know this happens in games with frequency.


Bull. I'll address this one point here, because the rest of your post is just pointless spin against a mountain of evidence against your position. You don't work for the Bush Administration, do you?

But I digress.

Quite the opposite of what I have quoted, EVERY fan that also plays ball consistently in here has said the exact opposite of what you just tried to say. As someone who has played in a couple of city tournaments, I can tell you exactly the same thing.

The natural landing for someone jumping up to contest a shot is to come down on a steady two feet, meaning shoulder-width apart, *with the legs parallel to the shoulder, not one foot extended in front of the body*. Bowen, everytime he does this, SPREADS his legs, which is an unnatural motion.

Take a look at the Kobe mix below, and pay attention to Kobe vs Wade in the 1st 12 seconds. THAT is how you contest a shot naturally.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AbqQ_MKnodY"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AbqQ_MKnodY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> If they did, it would probably make a lot of people look like sissies for complaining, because I seriously doubt Bruce Bowen would go crying to the media about an elbow, like some players and fans do about Bowen.


 Or maybe because he had it coming?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Honestly, reading this thread makes me laugh. People say they hate the fact that the league has gone soft, then they go and complain about a couple rolled ankles. It's not even that I disagree with these things being pointed out and penalized, but people shouldn't pretend that they long for a tougher and more physical league if they're going to complain about this crap.


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## jordan0386 (Jul 4, 2006)

Not one in the same...at all


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Honestly, reading this thread makes me laugh. People say they hate the fact that the league has gone soft, then they go and complain about a couple rolled ankles. It's not even that I disagree with these things being pointed out and penalized, but people shouldn't pretend that they long for a tougher and more physical league if they're going to complain about this crap.


Soft = players are afraid to get tough and play hard all the time.

Bruce Bowen is a cheap ***** who could really end a player's career pulling the kind of crap he pulls. That's not the opposite of soft, it's stupid. Bowen doesn't play hard all the time, he plays like a pansy.


I can't even believe you'd make a comment like that, knowing the nature of Bowen and how nobody here is encouraging his behavior. If you're relating the two and saying people are asking for this kind of stuff, then you're just wrong, dude. I don't see anybody here asking for purposeful injuries.


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Honestly, reading this thread makes me laugh. People say they hate the fact that the league has gone soft, then they go and complain about a couple rolled ankles. It's not even that I disagree with these things being pointed out and penalized, but people shouldn't pretend that they long for a tougher and more physical league if they're going to complain about this crap.


Please don't post like you know about basketball ever again, for integrity's sake. Feel free to post as the opinionated "fanb01" that you are, however.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

unluckyseventeen said:


> I can't even believe you'd make a comment like that, knowing the nature of Bowen and how nobody here is encouraging his behavior. If you're relating the two and saying people are asking for this kind of stuff, then you're just wrong, dude. I don't see anybody here asking for purposeful injuries.


That's fine if you think that. Just understand that it's the cheap tricks like that, that gave the 90's the physical reputation. Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Mourning and so on all did things that had potential hurt other players. They didn't do it to hurt people, they did it to help their team win. Getting in on a players jumpshot is going to increase chances of him missing a shot. Throwing an elbow is going to make the opponent second guess trying to come near you again if they catch an elbow or almost catch one. Giving a hard foul near the hoop has the same effect. All provide risk for injury, but all make the opponent second guess doing it again. 

Tough and physical basketball was full of these little intimidation tactics. It's fine to be against these things, but like I said, people shouldn't pretend to long for tough and physical basketball, then complain about a couple rolled ankles a year (at most).


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Honestly, reading this thread makes me laugh. People say they hate the fact that the league has gone soft, then they go and complain about a couple rolled ankles. It's not even that I disagree with these things being pointed out and penalized, but people shouldn't pretend that they long for a tougher and more physical league if they're going to complain about this crap.


 I'm not one of those you speak of, but I'm sure they want a tougher league, not DIRTY league.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> That's fine if you think that. Just understand that it's the cheap tricks like that, that gave the 90's the physical reputation. Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Mourning and so on all did things that had potential hurt other players. They didn't do it to hurt people, they did it to help their team win. Getting in on a players jumpshot is going to increase chances of him missing a shot. Throwing an elbow is going to make the opponent second guess trying to come near you again if they catch an elbow or almost catch one. Giving a hard foul near the hoop has the same effect. All provide risk for injury, but all make the opponent second guess doing it again.
> 
> Tough and physical basketball was full of these little intimidation tactics. It's fine to be against these things, but like I said, people shouldn't pretend to long for tough and physical basketball, then complain about a couple rolled ankles a year (at most).



I disagree. The players in the 90's were going out there, imposing their will and playing their guts out.

Here is a good example. Kobe elbowing Mike Miller in the throat. Was that just a good play or what? Man, he was playing tough. No, dude. That was intentional. So is the Bowen garbage. That's not physical play, it's going out there like a goon and trying to take out the other team's players. See the Temple goon vs. St Joes a couple seasons ago, and tell me that is not similar to what Bowen is doing. The goon for Temple ended that kid's season and the rest of his career for being a *******. Please tell me you don't advocate that, because it's exactly what you sound like you're doing. Just you wait until Bowen does it to somebody and it snaps their ankle, tears a tendon... etc. They are done for the season. I think thus far we've been fortunate for players just to miss 4-5 games because of his crap, and you sound like WE are asking for it. Apparently you don't see the difference.

Bruce Bowen gets away with slaps left and right, then INTENTIONALLY puts himself underneath you to try to get you injured. None of the players you mentioned EVER did that. Bowen has managed to get the league on his pathetic *** for playing dirty. There is a big difference.

I'd like to see you put together some film of players you mentioned that defined the NBA in the 90's that actually had intent on injuring another player. Last I checked none of them got investigated by the league...

They are by no means the same, and I'm very surprised that you would even make that connection.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

carrrnuttt said:


> Please don't post like you know about basketball ever again, for integrity's sake. Feel free to post as the opinionated "fanb01" that you are, however.


OOOO!! Personal attacks. Where is the Stu Jackson of BBBnet? Your behavior is clearly dirty and intentional, You should be suspended! WAHHHHHH!


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## jirohkanzaki (Aug 4, 2005)

if i was shooting and bowen is guarding me i would immediately look down after the shot and find where bowen knee is and land on it perpendicularly and break that mother****er's leg...


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

unluckyseventeen said:


> I disagree. The players in the 90's were going out there, imposing their will and playing their guts out.


Players play hard today too. 



unluckyseventeen said:


> Here is a good example. Kobe elbowing Mike Miller in the throat. Was that just a good play or what? Man, he was playing tough. No, dude. That was intentional.


Kobe's elbow was after the whistle, and had no impact on the game. He did it because Miller got him earlier in the game on the face. That was dirty because it had no impact on anything basketball related. 



unluckyseventeen said:


> Bruce Bowen gets away with slaps left and right, then INTENTIONALLY puts himself underneath you to try to get you injured. None of the players you mentioned EVER did that. Bowen has managed to get the league on his pathetic *** for playing dirty. There is a big difference.


If Bowen is intentionally trying to hurt players, he isn't going a very good job. We're talking about like 1 or 2 players a year. Bowen's positioning on jumpshots *is* more dangerous than conventional jumpshot defense, but it *also* makes the shooter uncomfortable and lowers the chances of the shot going in. You act like there isn't a basketball purpose for it, but there clearly is. For a play that only hurts a player once in a blue moon, it severely lowers the chance of hundreds of shots going in. 



unluckyseventeen said:


> I'd like to see you put together some film of players you mentioned that defined the NBA in the 90's that actually had intent on injuring another player. Last I checked none of them got investigated by the league...


Players today could not use their elbows to clear space like they could in the 90's. Players can't give a hard foul at the hoop like they could in the 90's. Using your elbows to clear space on rebounds is seriously dangerous, but it does make other players second guess trying to get the ball from you. Hard fouls prevent easy layups, and again, make players second guess coming to the hoop. 

Look, like I said, I don't agree with Bowen on this, but this is *exactly* the type of thing that would *never* have been brought up 10 years. Not a chance in hell. Too many players were pulling the same type of intimidation tactics all the time.


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## jirohkanzaki (Aug 4, 2005)

that look of innocence on bowen's face make me sick...it's so obvious he intentionally hurts other players...he never even gets angry when someone is shouting at him telling him he plays dirty and just does that "what did i do?" face ****


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

I still disagree with what you're saying about the past generation. Incidents happened because players were being aggressive, yes. But they were not intentionally trying to hurt them.

For as much as you say that you don't agree with Bowen, you just defended his actions a couple of paragraphs up. Good defense would be getting a hand in his face. If you block his eyes, that's already enough. Plenty of the players in the league are quite good at it. You don't need to intentionally crowd him as he is coming down, AFTER he has already released the ball... which is what Bowen does.


I think if there was a player that had already injured or attempted to injure a dozen players, no matter what era, he would have been investigated. Just to say they wouldn't without any reasoning is like... ok? Bowen has tried several times. 

I'm glad the league is actually catching on.

I'm trying to understand what you say, but I am also saying that the two things you are trying to compare are completely unrelated because of the intent of the player, and the consistency with which Bowen is doing it.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Well I don't think Bowen is trying to hurt players intentionally, that's probably where we disagree. Again, if he was trying to hurt players, he would be hurting players more often. The amount of players he has hurt versus the years he has been in the league playing heavy minutes in countless games just isn't strong enough.

Bowen stands under players to make them uncomfortable on their shots. Yes it is dangerous, but it's affect on the shot cannot be denied. Shaquille has hurt more players when they come to the hoop than Bowen has on his jumpshot defense, yet Shaquille is respected and commended for being an intimidator and presence in the lane.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Dee-Zy said:


> contracted words still count for 2.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 No they don't. They count as one.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

lol, did it again to Crawford too? Looks like he's trying to get a few more kicks in before he gets suspended... literally.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Well I don't think Bowen is trying to hurt players intentionally, that's probably where we disagree. Again, if he was trying to hurt players, he would be hurting players more often. The amount of players he has hurt versus the years he has been in the league playing heavy minutes in countless games just isn't strong enough.
> 
> Bowen stands under players to make them uncomfortable on their shots. Yes it is dangerous, but it's affect on the shot cannot be denied. Shaquille has hurt more players when they come to the hoop than Bowen has on his jumpshot defense, yet Shaquille is respected and commended for being an intimidator and presence in the lane.



I guess it's debatable.

A hard foul in the lane is much more common, and malice is far less intentional when it occurs in that situation.

To me, Bowen looks like he is purposefully doing it, and it's when a player is absolutely defenseless. At least in the lane you can brace your fall, and a lot of times the player doing the fouling will try to slow his fall down if they can. When a player is coming down from the peak of his jump, what else is he going to do about Bowen sliding his foot underneath there?

It's not so much that he may or may not be meaning to, it's the fact that as an NBA player he should know how dangerous it is and back off a little (out of respect) instead of being an idiot and pretending like he didn't do anything. One of these days he's going to do it and get a fist right in his face for it. I was literally cheering Carter on to beat the **** out of him when he got undercut the 2nd time.


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Players play hard today too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Sir Patchwork again.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Yet another Knick player goes down. Me personally I think the fact that no one goes out and decks him hard just gives him more resson to not see the error of his ways.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

I don't think Bowen is trying to hurt anyone, he is trying to make them miss their shot, and he really isn't concerned if it may snap someone's ankle. 

It'd be hard for Bowen to seriously injure somebody using this tactic unless the guy doesn't have taped ankles, in which case you are just waiting for injury. Hard to feel bad for someone who gets hurt when he could've avoided it by taping.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> if a shooter jumps to shoot, then bowen contests the shot, that means he is jumping TOWARD the person, which means that he will probably end up under them. i play basketball a lot. and if a person is shooting, and im not close to them, but i run towards them to contest the shot, my momentum usually makes one of my feet go under theirs. most times i move out of the way before they land on me, but at least twice ppl landed on my ankle. they didnt get hurt at all, but that goes to show it can happen unintentionally. and bowen plays more defense than anyone in the NBA, which accounts for the incident happening to more than one person.



But Bowen jumps towards the shooter with intention to land his foot under the shooter as he lands. 
And I play basketball too.. as most people here. And if you did what Bowen did to those players, I'd make sure you're going to be hospitalized with me. A lot of players/defenders when they do that they avoid making contact with the player up in the air, and as a general code, you DO NOT make hard contact with the lower body as the shooter lands... and that counts with feet.

As someone stated, Bowen is doing this intentionally as it is part of his defense technique, basically putting off the other player by making them think Bowen is going under them.
Another good technique I know, is by stretching your hand as if you are about to make contact with the shooter's groin area...


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Go look at how Bowen lands. He lands with his feet spread way apart - his momentum isn't simply carrying him under the player. If that were the case, his body would be hitting the player, not his foot. Who the hell lands like that? No one. No one in the NBA lands like that when they're defending. 

I'm sick of people defending this guy. He jump kicked Wally in the face, so why the hell wouldn't he stick his foot under people? 

Again, nobody lands with they're legs three feet apart. This is completely intentional, and the people defending this jerk need to wake up. What other player in the league has a history like this? Not one.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

yuyuza1 said:


> I was playing a pickup game with my friends this weekend, and ran upto a guy who was shooting a 3, and slid under him after running all the way from the below the basket. It was obviously inadvertent, because -as someone here has already mentioned- the momentum makes it very hard to stop after running hard.


You ran out from all the way under the basket. Look where Bowen was standing in those clips. I doubt he can generate that much momentum from a simple jump.



maradro said:


> it has happened to the spurs in practice, several times. i guess its in the spurs and bowen's interest for manu or duncan to be out. (which has happened from scrimmage accidents)
> this happen across the league. in fact francis did retaliate in that first knicks game, sticking his foot under a manu 3pter. i guess it happens more when you play hard.


No it hasn't.



maradro said:


> my theory, the only reason bowen is on a court is to play d. he contests everything, constantly guards league stars, but hes aging. so as bowen is later on his timing he is going to be more dangerous. In all those clips, bowen is playing hard D. He is getting his hand in their faces but he makes contact hence a foul (in wally's case, bowen closed out on the 3, and wally sidestepped right into his foot. he literally runs into it. the game isnt slow-mo like these vids) you cant demonstrate that bowen is the only player to have been under someones rolled ankle, it just happens to him more because he contests more, even when he probably should just let it go.


I don't know what your idea of a contested shot is, but mine certainly doesn't involve stretching my feet out.



> if the league wants to emphasize that you can now play less defense (reggie miller would have loved this change, kick out Js all day long) fine, but dont just pick on bowen because he has a bad rep with allen, carter, and francis (who are the only ones to be really injured), of which francis says it was unintentional, *and carter and allen, who arent really known for being tough. * Bowen gets in their heads, they get injured, and they think it was intentional when its not.


So if you twist your ankle, you're not tough?



> I wonder if some of the people who want to ban or suspend bowen feel the same way about bell, artest, sheed, karl malone, juwon howard, piertrus, evans, fortson, and the hundreds of other players who out of sheer chance were under someones ankle. Those who actually play basketball here will know this happens in games with frequency.


I'm sure they were under someone's ankle. Just not as much as Bowen. And this doesn't happen with all that much frequency.



Sir Patchwork said:


> That's fine if you think that. Just understand that it's the cheap tricks like that, that gave the 90's the physical reputation. Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Mourning and so on all did things that had potential hurt other players. They didn't do it to hurt people, they did it to help their team win. Getting in on a players jumpshot is going to increase chances of him missing a shot. Throwing an elbow is going to make the opponent second guess trying to come near you again if they catch an elbow or almost catch one. Giving a hard foul near the hoop has the same effect. All provide risk for injury, but all make the opponent second guess doing it again.


Intimidation isn't the result of Bowen's actions. You don't second guess an ankle injury. It's one thing to get intimidated by a guy's swing elbows, because you can see it coming, and the fear is physical pain. Throwing an elbow or a hard foul sends a message - don't come into my personal space, don't come into my lane. When Bowen does this, you're not even thinking about it. 

Bowen has done this enough times to know the injury it causes. Don't give me that 'helping his team win' bull****. Helping your team win by causing injury is not an acceptable method.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> I don't think Bowen is trying to hurt anyone, he is trying to make them miss their shot, and he really isn't concerned if it may snap someone's ankle.
> 
> It'd be hard for Bowen to seriously injure somebody using this tactic unless the guy doesn't have taped ankles, in which case you are just waiting for injury. Hard to feel bad for someone who gets hurt when he could've avoided it by taping.


He probabl doesn't have the "I'm going to injury your ankles intentionally" mentality, but his actions causes injuries. And not the one of toughness. Big men send the 'don't come in my house' message, but what message does Bowen send? "I'll sprain your ankle if you shoot"?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

I agree. Personally, I don't think he does it with the intention of hurting anyone, but doesn't really care if he does.


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## jl1 (May 24, 2006)

Once is an accident. Twice is a coincidence. Three times is unfortunate. The fourth, fifth, sixth times.. well, lets just say Bowen knows exactly what he's doing.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Honestly, reading this thread makes me laugh. People say they hate the fact that the league has gone soft, then they go and complain about a couple rolled ankles. It's not even that I disagree with these things being pointed out and penalized, but *people shouldn't pretend that they long for a tougher and more physical league if they're going to complain about this crap*.


I think that's the nature of people today, they just complain about anything from Kobe's 81 points, LeBron not systematically running down the court to play defense when the game is about to end, to people complaining about any and everything Stern does. People just like to complain.


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## Kidd's Nets (Jun 10, 2006)

Chan said:


> You ran out from all the way under the basket. Look where Bowen was standing in those clips. I doubt he can generate that much momentum from a simple jump.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


great post.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

maradro said:


> I read up to here because this is a good point.
> 
> it has happened to the spurs in practice, several times. i guess its in the spurs and bowen's interest for manu or duncan to be out. (which has happened from scrimmage accidents)
> this happen across the league. in fact francis did retaliate in that first knicks game, sticking his foot under a manu 3pter. i guess it happens more when you play hard.
> ...



This entire post is bs. As for the last line, I have played more basketball than you can imagine, and have seen players come down on someone's foot, but 99% of the time it has been inside in the paint, battling to get a shot off, or to grab a rebound. 

The step under move is known by many, many basketball players as a dirty move. I know certain basketball players do it on purpose because I have heard it with my own ears. 


And let's get real, Bowen was really a scrub who found something he was good at, and he worked hard. But you would be kidding yourself if you don't think he uses every trick in the book to protect his spot in the league.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> That's fine if you think that. Just understand that it's the cheap tricks like that, that gave the 90's the physical reputation. Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Mourning and so on all did things that had potential hurt other players. They didn't do it to hurt people, they did it to help their team win. Getting in on a players jumpshot is going to increase chances of him missing a shot. Throwing an elbow is going to make the opponent second guess trying to come near you again if they catch an elbow or almost catch one. Giving a hard foul near the hoop has the same effect. All provide risk for injury, but all make the opponent second guess doing it again.
> 
> Tough and physical basketball was full of these little intimidation tactics. It's fine to be against these things, but like I said, people shouldn't pretend to long for tough and physical basketball, then complain about a couple rolled ankles a year (at most).


Patchwork certainly has a point here, but getting a foot under a guy on a jumper has always been kind of an unwritten rule, and I believe Isiah said something similar, talking a few nights ago about when he was a player.


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## wightnoiser (Oct 29, 2003)

"If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'". 

Sports history is filled with guys who were considered dirty players and often they were key parts of championship teams. Butkus, Gibson, Laimbeer... the list is long and distinguished. I'd rather have a guy like Bowen who gives a damn about his team, and winning and losing before some guy like Artest who is just collecting a paycheck and wouldn't even be in the NBA if his rap career would take off.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

wightnoiser said:


> "If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'".
> 
> Sports history is filled with guys who were considered dirty players and often they were key parts of championship teams. Butkus, Gibson, Laimbeer... the list is long and distinguished. I'd rather have a guy like Bowen who *gives a damn about his team*, and winning and losing before some guy like Artest who is just collecting a paycheck and wouldn't even be in the NBA if his rap career would take off.


it's not about caring about his team...he sucks, and he needs to cheat to compete...dirty mother ****er deserves a career-ending injury...


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## Netz_love (Nov 10, 2005)

I just have one question for all you people who call this is a coincidence

Why does this only happen when a shooter's hot ? Carter was torching the Spurs in both games.In the second game he would have probably scored 60 the way he was going.
Another coincidence?

One more thing ,why is his face always turned away from the player while his foot is going under them ? If he's playing defense and he has so much momentum I would think he would be looking straight at them.It's obviously done on purpose and to look like an accident he tries to look the other way.

Can't believe anyone can side with this *****?


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## eddymac (Jun 23, 2005)

I hope Bowen gets fined and suspended. It is not an accident if your doing it more than once.

Kobe Bryant
Tracy Mcgrady
Ray Allen
Vince Carter
Wally Szerbiak
Steve Francis
Dirk Nowitski


Have all missed time in the past because of Bowen's "defense".


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

rainman said:


> i agree they should crack down on Bowen although i dont know what you could do but call it a foul. as for Shaq all you have to do is watch the replay to realize it was intentional and it isnt the first time that he has gone out of his way to take someone out.



Of course, Shaq tries and take people out more than they take him out? Hack-a-Shaq mean anything to you? Don't try to say Shaq is a dirty player because he gets more of a beating than anyone... oh, as for Bowen I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt but it's happened too many times to believe it's accidental.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

wightnoiser said:


> "If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'".
> 
> Sports history is filled with guys who were considered dirty players and often they were key parts of championship teams. Butkus, Gibson, Laimbeer... the list is long and distinguished. I'd rather have a guy like Bowen who gives a damn about his team, and winning and losing before some guy like Artest who is just collecting a paycheck and wouldn't even be in the NBA if his rap career would take off.


You don't justify injuring other people with that statement. Once again, what Bowen does cannot be compared to other forms of dirty play. It's not getting in anyone's head- it's simply taking a player out of the game.


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## M.D.E (Feb 26, 2005)

LOl..Bruce is quickly becoming my favorite player. The hatred for him is incredible. I love rooting for the underdogs, dawg. Bruce just plays hard defense. He's only about 190lbs, hardly threathening when compared to the people he so "intentionally" injures. In both those clips, his contested "D" didn't look intentional to the un-homer/"fanbo1" eye. Of course it would if yout watching the clip with intentions to look for something dirty.


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## eddymac (Jun 23, 2005)

^It has happened on more than one occation though.

Like someone said earlier why hasn't he injuried anyone in practice if this is how he contests jump shots?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Honestly, reading this thread makes me laugh. People say they hate the fact that the league has gone soft, then they go and complain about a couple rolled ankles. It's not even that I disagree with these things being pointed out and penalized, but people shouldn't pretend that they long for a tougher and more physical league if they're going to complain about this crap.


Patches, you are way off. 

Yeah, the league has gone soft and i hate it, but that doesn't have anything to do with Bowen's antics.

Physical basketball is trying to stop your guy the hard way. It's not trying to INJURE him. Let alone an injury that can be career-threatening.

Heck, i remember Bill Laimbeer trying to poke Brad Daugherty in the eyes during a screen. And yeah, that was dirty play. But not even Bill Laimbeer, the most hated guy in the history of the NBA, would go out of his way to try and **** up a player.

And that's what Bowen does. This is a guy who can't block shots. He just can't. His 0.4bpg career average atest to that. Still, he is jumping to people and spreading his legs under the player after he releases the ball... For what purpose, i ask? The answer is simple: he is a scumbag who is trying to hurt people.

Physical, tough basketball is in another realm compared to what Bowen does...

And before you say it, yes, i always though that guys like Malone, Barkley, Mutombo and others throwing their elbows after they got a rebound was risky, at the very least. But i'd prefer a broken tooth (Nash) than to have to miss severall games due to landing on Bowen...


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## maradro (Aug 2, 2003)

francis was really torching the spurs huh? 

and allen and carter, sprained ankles or no, were considered soft way before bruce bowen came along. 

bowen has "done" this to manu, parker, and Im not sure if he himself did it to duncan but i know he has rolled his ankles in practice too (I do remember sheed did it to him in 0405). It happens. Sure there is a dirtiness to it, i never said there wasnt. but its part of playing defense. In what, 5+ years of bowen being in the league you have 3 sprained ankles against him, and no flagrants that I know of. He may be cheap, but he isnt out trying to hurt people, just stop them.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

People are mistaking "toughness" with dirty tactics.

I could run around shoving people down the stairs when they are not looking but that doesn't make me a tough guy.

You are dillusional if you think it's all by chance that it happens with Bowen almost exclusively.

If you condone Bowen's actions, then imagine a league where everyone sticks their feet right under where they feel a jump shooter might land, half the league would be constantly injured.

The only thing I can say, is Carter should be sticking his feet under Bowen to cause an injury.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

slamming your fist into a guys **** everytime he drives into the lane probably makes people second guess driving in and intimidates people too, but it doesn't mean you are playing good defense

Same goes for bowen. Purposely sneaking your feet under people doesn't make you a tough guy. It just makes you a loser who compensates by hurting peole when they can't defend themselves.

If Bowen robbed old ladies and you guys who defend him would be like he's so hardcore.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

maradro said:


> francis was really torching the spurs huh?
> 
> and allen and carter, sprained ankles or no, were considered soft way before bruce bowen came along.
> 
> bowen has "done" this to manu, parker, and Im not sure if he himself did it to duncan but i know he has rolled his ankles in practice too (I do remember sheed did it to him in 0405). It happens. Sure there is a dirtiness to it, i never said there wasnt. but its part of playing defense. In what, 5+ years of bowen being in the league you have 3 sprained ankles against him, and no flagrants that I know of. He may be cheap, but he isnt out trying to hurt people, just stop them.


Irrelevant.

You still haven't answered my question: "If you sprain your ankle, you're soft?"

He has never done it to Manu or Parker. Your statement is wrong.


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## maradro (Aug 2, 2003)

ok, Im going to get the proof that he did it to manu and parker. in the mean time, suck on this: 

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/...MYSA111506.07C.BKNspurs.notebook.88b40e0.html



> Houston coach Jeff Van Gundy said he doesn't think the plays in question were committed with malice.
> 
> "If he says that's unintentional, who am I to question him?" Van Gundy said. "Some players, any time a guy competes hard against him, the first word they use is 'dirty'. Because you know they don't want to put as much effort into the game as a guy who competes hard.
> 
> ...


thats what kobe says, what lebron says, what melo says, what francis said, what crawford said... the only guys whining are allen and carter and people that dont even play basketball


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## maradro (Aug 2, 2003)

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/...MYSA122905.1C.BKNspurs.ginobili.17a0d37f.html

there's the proof on bowen-ginobili, about 3 paragraphs into the article.

I'll get you parker later, I have work to do now


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Is there more to this? All I am seeing is that Bowen got tangled with Manu in a drill. Does not say anything about Bowen stepping under him on a jumper.


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## djtoneblaze (Nov 22, 2004)

He's basketball's Rodney Harrison.

The dirtiest player in the league who is allowed to get away with it because he plays on a championship team (Spurs, Patriots) full of "good guys" (Duncan, Brady).


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

Bowen must be slipping a little or holding back on his defense a little. Morrison is lighting him up tonight and TMac light him up last night.


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

DuMa said:


> Bowen must be slipping a little or holding back on his defense a little. Morrison is lighting him up tonight and TMac light him up last night.


Quoted from elsewhere:



> On NBA TV, NBA Director of Officials Ronnie Nunn just called what Bowen did in the NY game a foul. He said it doesn't matter whether Bowen did in on purpose or not, you're not allowed to put your foot in the area where the shooter is landing.
> 
> He said Bowen needs to change his style to adjust and the refs need to follow the play until the shooter lands and make sure the defender does not enter his cylinder.
> 
> So I guess the league has had it with Bowen and they realized he puts players in danger. Guess it was about time.


Let's see that "hard defender" shtick now. Starting tonight. :banana:


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

Like I suggested in another thread, next time the Knicks play the Spurs, Isiah should start Jerome James and have him jump on Duncan's back for a " hard foul" and see how he feels. If Bowen tries to retaliate, land and give him a pill shot he'll remember.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

People are going to cite this as the reason that Bowen is an irrelevant player now, but in reality he's just too old for a guy who was never that good to begin with. He'll be replaced in the starting lineup by Finley here in a few weeks.


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## maradro (Aug 2, 2003)

well i havent had time to look for the parker injury, but i saw this on another board:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/marty_burns/11/15/bowen.reputation/



> In some ways Bowen might be a victim of his own success. As one GM pointed out, there are other players who push the envelope defensively -- such as Eric Snow, Raja Bell and Ruben Patterson -- but don't get the same scrutiny. The GM also noted that Bowen defends the other team's top scorer every night, making it more likely he'll be involved in confrontations with high-profile players like Carter or Allen.
> 
> The GM went on to raise an interesting statistical argument: Let's say Bowen defends the other team's top scorer each night, and that the scorer attempts 20 shots per game. If Bowen actively contests half those shots, he's looking at 820 times per season (10 shots x 82 games) where he's flying out at his man trying to get a hand in his face. Over the span of five years, that's 4,100 plays.
> 
> "How many times has he been accused of [sticking his foot underneath] over that time span? Four or five? Out of [4,000] plays?," the GM notes. "When you look at it like that, it doesn't seem like it's intentional."


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

"When you look at it like that, it doesn't seem like it's intentional." 

Except when you use your eyeballs, it is.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

EHL said:


> "When you look at it like that, it doesn't seem like it's intentional."
> 
> Except when you use your eyeballs, it is.



right on point...

bowen's "defense" on jumpshots, looks like he is playing hopscotch...


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

> In some ways Bowen might be a victim of his own success. As one GM pointed out, there are other players who push the envelope defensively -- such as Eric Snow, Raja Bell and Ruben Patterson -- but don't get the same scrutiny. The GM also noted that Bowen defends the other team's top scorer every night, making it more likely he'll be involved in confrontations with high-profile players like Carter or Allen.
> 
> The GM went on to raise an interesting statistical argument: Let's say Bowen defends the other team's top scorer each night, and that the scorer attempts 20 shots per game. If Bowen actively contests half those shots, he's looking at 820 times per season (10 shots x 82 games) where he's flying out at his man trying to get a hand in his face. Over the span of five years, that's 4,100 plays.
> 
> "How many times has he been accused of [sticking his foot underneath] over that time span? Four or five? Out of [4,000] plays?," the GM notes. "When you look at it like that, it doesn't seem like it's intentional."


Man, this guy has it down, let me tell you. I just sit at home and watch the box scores. Who wants to watch the game? I mean, you obviously don't know anything by watching them.

Who is this idiot GM? He knows he is dead wrong otherwise he'd have his name put in there.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

unluckyseventeen said:


> Man, this guy has it down, let me tell you. I just sit at home and watch the box scores. Who wants to watch the game? I mean, you obviously don't know anything by watching them.
> 
> Who is this idiot GM? He knows he is dead wrong otherwise he'd have his name put in there.


could be the idiot gm's like danny ainge or chris mullin.. or ferry who used to play for the spurs.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

He claims another victim tonight, got his foot under anthony parker from behind, could've been acidental but it was bruce bowen so you never know


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## open mike (Jan 3, 2003)

it was clearly accidental, none the less ****ty that we lost 2 starters tonight tho in a game that was a blow out after the first quarter


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

Even if it is accidental, Bowen shouldn't be allowed in the league. I mean if you walk down the street accidently shooting people in the face, somebody should take the gun away from you right?


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## LineOFire (Apr 20, 2004)

You would think if he were doing this on purpose he would take out Steve Nash or Kobe or TMac. What does he stand to gain by injuring Anthony Parker or Vince Carter? It just doesn't make sense for him to be doing it on purpose.


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## darth-horax (Nov 21, 2005)

Those fouls are the main reason (not the only, but the main reason) why Melo struggles against him. Melo relies a lot on his smooth jumper, but when you're afraid of coming down awkwardly, your whole shot changes.

They need to crack down on fouls like this. Come on Stern, you're worried about a dress code and corn rows, why not do something positive like protecting your players?


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## kidd2rj (Jan 29, 2005)

LineOFire said:


> You would think if he were doing this on purpose he would take out Steve Nash or Kobe or TMac. What does he stand to gain by injuring Anthony Parker or Vince Carter? It just doesn't make sense for him to be doing it on purpose.



he did it to carter twice. once is an accident, twice is on purpose. carter was shooting a fadeaway too and still landing on the guy. how is that even possible. and what does bowen have to gain? carter was torching him for 40+ points through 3 quarters i believe before the refs overreacted and tossed him. I beleive SA won that game too so i think bowen gained a lot


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## LineOFire (Apr 20, 2004)

kidd2rj said:


> he did it to carter twice. once is an accident, twice is on purpose. carter was shooting a fadeaway too and still landing on the guy. how is that even possible. and what does bowen have to gain? carter was torching him for 40+ points through 3 quarters i believe before the refs overreacted and tossed him. I beleive SA won that game too so i think bowen gained a lot


Obviously winning a regular season game against the Nets, a team not even in their conference, meant so much to the Spurs that they would risk one of their key starters getting suspended by intentionally injuring Vince Carter.


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## firstrounder (Oct 31, 2004)

Bowen is a piece of sh!t. nuff said.


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

LineOFire said:


> Obviously winning a regular season game against the Nets, a team not even in their conference, meant so much to the Spurs that they would risk one of their key starters getting suspended by intentionally injuring Vince Carter.


Regular season game or not, when a guy is torching you for 40+ points.. you take it personal.


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