# OT: Fearsome Foursome or NOT!?



## bfan1 (Mar 5, 2003)

A fun story with a Blazer touch:

LINK 



> L.A.'s Fearsome Foursome have great resumes. Kobe, Shaq, Malone and Payton have combined to score more than 86,000 career points. But as the Lakers may learn next season, too much of a good thing may not be such a good thing.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

Excellent article. Especially this part:



> "Payton loves to control the game -- Kobe lives to control it, the ball almost welded to his hands on key possessions. Notice how when Shaq got into foul trouble in recent seasons, you could almost see the light go on inside Bryant's head. It was his time to single-handedly save the day: Have no fear, Kobe's here! How does Kobe deal with Payton controlling the offense, dictating whom gets shots with the game on the line? I see friction and frustration just waiting to happen.
> 
> Add the Mailman to the mix, and now you have another guy who is used to being the focal point of the offense. How does he fit into the triangle offense after a lifetime of running the pick-and-roll with John Stockton?"


Very interesting points. This "experiment" could be a disaster waiting to happen. Especially when you consider that the Lakers have won 3 championships with Kobe Bryant, while Gary Payton hasn't won any. What's to keep Kobe from thinking that he should be the one controlling the ball all the time? After all, it worked before!


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

Seems the naysayers are hell-bent on clutching onto the idea that this "experiment" will blow up in the Laker faces. For every potential bad aspect of the Lakers signing GP and Malone, there are about 5 positives.

Did it ever occur to some of the naysayers that with GP on the team Kobe will be more of a threat on the offensive end of the floor? That finally having someone to create shots for him will only make him that much more deadly? GP and Kobe will combine to be the best backcourt this league has seen in years, if not ever. Kobe *wanted* GP here. So no matter how much some of you hang onto the hopes of there being friction between these guys, its just not the case. Kobe was consulted with every move the Lakers made this season. 

Its pretty simple guys. The Lakers now have the best frontcourt and backcourt in the league. Once you get past the Lakers dobermen(GP and Kobe), you have 600lbs of muscle in the middle to contend with. Thats a daunting task for any team.

You also must remember, they play the triangle offense that is predicated on ball and player movement. The ball will find the open man and the open man will take the shot. Its funny how the Lakers went from being laughed at for having no talent to being criticized for having too much.


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## antibody (Apr 4, 2003)

I find it funny how Laker fan's come in here and blow their spew all over the place regarding GP and Malone. Talkhard just said the experiment COULD blow up. Never was the word will or probably will. It does no good to come in here and talk about naysayer this and LA has the best that. It is beyond obvious these deals will attract attention. Portland fan's are not the only one's wondering about whether it will work or not. You might as well go into every forum and state what you said here.


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## Public Defender (May 5, 2003)

The Lakers' biggest problem last year was defense... and if Kobe wanted Payton on the Lakers, it's likely because he knows The Glove excels on the defensive end of the floor. But when it's crunch time, you _know_ Bryant wants the ball in his hands on the offensive end. As for GP helping Bryant create his own shots... O'Neal has been doing that for years - but often Bryant takes it upon himself to create his own shot, even when playing the two man game with Shaq will invariably get him a better shot. Couple that with Kobe announcing his free agency (a year ahead of time!), and you've got a formula for more show-boating. 

As for laughed at for not enough talent... there's been a pretty solid parallel to the Chicago Bulls' teams for the Lakers - sure they never had the best center or best point guard, but the Bulls had the right players in the right positions. I'd say that was true of the "other positions" for the Lakers, when LA had Ron Harper or a healthy D-Fish at the point, and a younger Robert Horry or Horace Grant at PF. 

But throwing in too perennial all-stars in the late stages of their careers.... there is such a thing as too much of a good thing... posting this thread in the Blazers' forum, you must've known we'd say this. After all, didn't we all feel like the addition of all-stars like Detlef Schrempf and Steve Smith to an already stacked Blazer team would surely get us back to the NBA Finals?


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

First of all, i have never said the Lakers were a lock for anything. I simply stated they now have the best front and backcourts in the league. Does that gurantee a title? No. Never said that. But it sure as hell increases their chances.

If you guys havent noticed. Kobe has been altering his game for the benefit of the team for the last 4 years. He's had to share the limelight with the most dominate force the league has ever seen. Why should it all of a sudden be a problem with him now? Now that he has even more help? Now that the burden will be even less on him? Makes no sense. If there is one totally misconception about Kobe- its that he selfish. Far from it. Name me one other star with his ability that has had to share the limelight with a dominate presence such as Shaq in recent years, and had it result in titles? No one.

Not to sound too cocky or anything. But if this team gels. If they get that chemistry. Which i have no doubt they will. There wont be too many late game heroics needed. The Lakers should have most teams put away by the third quarter. They're that stacked. However, if it does come down to last game shots and so on. I would rather have a multitude of options than none. GP and Malone taking paycuts checked their egos at the door. They know what they're walking into. Again, it just seems the only hope i hear and read nowdays from the opposition is the possibility of there being friction between the Fearsome Foursome. IMO, thats not very likely. You dont take major cuts in pay. Have one of the greatest Point guards of all time offer you his retired jersey, just to come to town and start shhhhhh. Doesnt work that way. 


Malone and Payton are here for one thing. One thing only. A shot at the ring.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

All I have to say is......




Remember the 98-99 Houston Rockets...

They had Barkley, Pippen, Hakeem and Clyde. Their team was incredibally hyped and everyone almost handed them the title. They then imploded............


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## antibody (Apr 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> Not to sound too cocky or anything. The Lakers should have most teams put away by the third quarter.


:rotf:


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## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

i think one of the most annoying things is how for the last few years, laker fans have been trying to rub it in our faces that too much talent is a bad thing and that we will implode..... they might have been right.
BUT, now they are in the same situation we were in, and all of the sudden, you can NEVER have too much talent, according to laker fans.  
give me a break.


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

Everyone always makes reference to those Rockets. 

Guys, its two totally different situations. Clyde,Hakeem and Barkley were on the downside of their careers. Pippen was a headcase. Wanted so bad to prove he could win without Jordan. 
I think that was the root of many of their problems. Barkley and Dream both were post players. Their games did not mess. Thats another reason it didnt work out. 

Now break down the Lakers:

Kobe: 24 year old top 2 player in the league. Not even in his prime.

Shaq: 31 year old dominate big man. Maybe the most dominate of all time. Not quite on the downside of his career. Especially if reports of him already sheding 15lbs are true. A motivated and dedicated Shaq, is a tremendous weapon. Unstoppable even.

Payton: 35 year old point guard who brings all the skills the Lakers have been missing for years. Finally another intiator in the offense. A PG capable of taking a lot of duties off of Kobe's plate making him even more effective.

Malone: 40 year old PF who's game is more midrange jumpers than anything else. He's the perfect compliment to Shaq and Kobe. Especially Shaq. Shaq will still be able to do his thing in the paint with Malone at the elbow draining jumpers left and right when and if teams double down big on Shaq.

Finally, the greatest difference between these Lakers and those Rockets is Phil. Phil Jackson. The Zen Master. The greatest coach at managing players and egos that this game has ever seen. He has a way of making all his players buy into his system. And i cant stress enough how intregal the Triangle offense will be in making this all work out. If the Lakers run the offense, which we all know Phil will have it no other way. There will be no room for all this selfishness many of you continue to bring up. The Triangle will force these guys to work as a team. Not that it would be needed. They are all Vets with excellent passing skills. They know exactly what needs to be done.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

Payton is a headcase.

Malone, Payton and O'Neal are on the downsides of their career. 

All 4 of these players have large egos


Their situation IS extremley similar to the Rockets. Im not saying their gonna implode, im just sayin their is a good chance that happens. 

Also, Rudy T was a players coach, and even HE couldnt control his 4 all-stars. Jackson is also a good coach, but i wouldnt be to suprised if even he couldnt handle 4 all-stars.


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

Thanks, BlazerGuy, took the words right out of my mouth. I just want to see this team crying in the end of their season with no ring or trophy.


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

Such disdain for the Lakers here. 

Anyway, did you guys also notice that Payton and Malone chose to come here? Unlike Barkley or Pippen or Clyde who were all traded to the Rockets?

Point being. Rarely will you see guys willing go into a situation and cause trouble. Taking paycuts at that to do so.

Also, Rudy T is a great coach. A great players coach. Did you guys ever think with 4 all stars that really wasnt what they needed? They needed a get in your arse type of coach. A coach that doesnt care who you are. If you are not doing things his way, you're gone. Or your riding the pine. Thats exactly the type of coach Phil Jackson is. He's not afraid to get into Kobe or Shaq's face when they screw up. I dont see that changing with Malone and Payton in the fold. 

Just as you guys think this could possibly be a disaster. Many, if not all Laker fans believe this could be the start of something special.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> Such disdain for the Lakers here.
> 
> Anyway, did you guys also notice that Payton and Malone chose to come here? Unlike Barkley or Pippen or Clyde who were all traded to the Rockets?
> ...


Barkley, Pippen and Clyde WANTED to be traded to Houston because of Hakeem. 

And in case you've forgotten, Kobe was traded to Los Angeles. Do you somehow think that means he doesn't want to be there? Your logic is absurd.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

Also,

Pippen's was a sign and trade... he had to have wanted to go there, and Hakeem had been there his entire career.

I guess Karl Malone isn't a post player?!?!


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

I think that the Lakers have, essentially, swung VERY hard (either at a pitch or the ball on the tee... take your pick). They're either going to hit it a ton, or they're going to whiff.

Considering the Lakers already had two of the top ~5 players or so, they didn't HAVE to swing so hard. They could have added some improved role players and hoped that Shaq was healthy... and they would be the favorites to win it all next year.

Instead, while they're still the favorites they have a decent-sized chance to melt down that they haven't had in the last 4 years or so.

Ed O.


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

Karl is not as much of a post player that he use to be. As i stated previously, Karl's strong point of his game now days is his mid range jumper. Which fits in with Shaquille perfectly.

As far as my logic being absurd. I beg to differ. Malone and Payton wanted to be here so much they left 40mil and 20mil respectively. Why would they do that just to come here and start trouble? It makes no sense.

Just seems to me many of the naysayers are reaching here. Just because it didnt work out with 4 aging veterans in Houston doesnt mean it wont work out with the Lakers.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

And nobody here is saying that they're necessarily going to implode either, but the possibility is certainly there. We're basing that on the Houston experiment as well as the Portland experiment. 

This "too much talent" argument hits home around here... we've been having it shoved in our faces for the last 4 years, we're starting to believe it!


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> 
> As far as my logic being absurd. I beg to differ. Malone and Payton wanted to be here so much they left 40mil and 20mil respectively. Why would they do that just to come here and start trouble? It makes no sense.


You've stated that Pippen, Barkley and Drexler didn't work in Houston because they were traded there. That's where your logic falls apart. 

Clyde was from Houston, he wanted to be traded there. Barkley wanted to go to Houston because there were two Hall of Fame level players on the team already. Pippen joined via a sign and trade, therefore he clearly wanted to be there as well. Obviously the fact that they were traded has zero to do with the problems that occurred on that team. There were simply too many egos to keep in check. 

Of course they have the best intentions at this time, but wait til the first time Kobe drives the ball the length of the court and fires up a shot at the buzzer to lose the game for the Lakers.


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

Fork-

Its obvious you arent a fan of the Lakers and you're holding out all hope that these guys dont get along. Im just trying to tell you in the most cordial way possible...dont hold your breath.

They are all veteran, great players with the greatest coach at handling egos this game has ever seen. They all want to play together. Have taken paycuts to make it a reality. Have even gone as far as to have 4 way conversation amongst each other to dicuss how they are dedicated to making this work. How they will even go out of their way to ensure Malone gets the scoring record. So basically, for every reason you guys come up to say this thing wont work out, i can come up with 10 as to why it will. Its a matter of perspective.

As far as Pippen wanting to go to Houston. If my memory serves me correct, Pippen's first choice was the Lakers. But Buss nixed the deal. So Houston was his second choice. He got his money and he was happy. I believe the trade suggested was to involve Eddie Jones. I could be mistaken. If so my bad.

I just can't equate Karl's and Gary's desire to join the Lakers to that of the guys who went to Houston. None of them walked away from 60million combined the way GP and Karl have done. That has to speak volumes. It does to me at least.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Not saying it will happen the same way, but I seem to remember a team in Houston that featured Clyde Drexler, Scottie Pippen, Charles Barkely and Hakeem Olajuwan. Yes many of these guys were declining, but they were a huge huge disappointment to many.


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## Public Defender (May 5, 2003)

Sha-Kobe O'Bryant, I think what you're missing here, is it just doesn't matter what any of these guys are saying right now, how many times they spoke this off-season, or what you believe the significance of leaving money on the table might be. It's all conjecture...

However, there are several cases of teams stacked with talent that failed to put it all together. In fact, there are more cases of stacked teams falling apart at the seams, or failing to live up to the hype, than there are of teams jelling perfectly and becoming the kind of dominant champions they could be. The Houston Rockets. The Portland Trail Blazers. Last year's Washington Wizards were even pretty stacked (Stackhouse, Jordan, Bryon Russell, Charles Oakley, etc.), the last Olympic team - dare we forget? 

As for teams that could put it together, often they evolved over several seasons rather than being thrown together in a single off-season the way the Lakers are. Like my fellow Blazer fans, I'm skeptical of the Lakers' success, but by no means am I dooming them to the lottery, or even to failing to win a championship. I just know that Karl Malone is an old man with a huge ego, Gary Payton loves the ball and so does Kobe, and any team with Shaq on it is Shaq's team. Sounds like trouble... and I don't know if Phil Jackson still has the stomach for all this.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> Fork-
> 
> Its obvious you arent a fan of the Lakers and you're holding out all hope that these guys dont get along. Im just trying to tell you in the most cordial way possible...dont hold your breath.
> ...


No, I am not a fan of the Lakers. I post on the Blazers board, so I guess that's pretty obvious. 

As for your advice, thanks. I'm writing it down. 

My point is this: it doesn't matter HOW a player gets into a situation, it only matters that they are in a situation. 

When it comes time for a last second shot, who does the ball go to? When the shot is missed, how fast will the other 3 start to complain. I understand that they both took pay cuts to come to LA. I understand that each time you re-state your case. 

Kobe Bryant is still on the team. He is still a whiny primadonna who hasn't seen a shot he doesn't like. He still mopes and sulks when things don't go his way.

Shaq is still the most dominant player in the league and he still commands the ball, and deserves it. He is still not afraid to go running to the press to complain when things don't go his way. 

Karl Malone is still 40 years old. Still chasing the all time scoring mark. Still wants many shots so that he can get that record. He also likes to talk to reporters. When he's not getting his 15 shots a night, and he sees that scoring record drifting away from him, will he remain happy?

Gary Payton is still a nutjob. Still a locker room pain in the ***. Still has the biggest mouth in th league. Still loves to go shooting off his mouth to the press whenever he feels there is any sort of problem. When he isn't the focal point, will he be happy?

The Lakers have assembled an incredible amount of talent. I see that each of these four guys has their own adgenda. Phil could handle 2 guys who wanted the ball each and every possession, but I'm not so sure that he can handle 4. 

I don't understand why you can't see there COULD be some problems.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> Guys, its two totally different situations. Clyde,Hakeem and Barkley were on the downside of their careers.


Clyde Drexler wasn't on that team. Pippen and Drexler never played together, Drexler had already retired. It was Olajuwon, Barkley and Pippen.



> Pippen was a headcase. Wanted so bad to prove he could win without Jordan.


Well, if we're just going to play amateur psychologist, Kobe's a headcase too. Wants so bad to prove that the Lakers are his team, not Shaq's. Amazing how easy it is to phrase unsubstantiated opinion as fact, isn't it?



> Barkley and Dream both were post players. Their games did not mess. Thats another reason it didnt work out.


Ever watched Shaq and Malone play? Neither is really a three-point shooting phenom. If your counter-point is going to be "But Malone shoots a lot of jumpers," so did Olajuwon. If *all* Malone did was shoot midrange jumpers, he'd be done. His jumper clanks more and more. He's still very effective because of his post game.

Your run-down of the Lakers:

Shaq - great!
Kobe - great!
Payton - perfect compliment!
Malone - perfect compliment!
Jackson - greatest ever!

I understand that as a Lakers fan, you're optimistic. But claiming that this is all going to work because everyone's just so great is as old and repetitive as the "nay-sayers" you complain about.


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## Terrible (Jan 3, 2003)

This Laker team will be amazing unless Kobe goes to jail. Outside of that be prepared for the fact that the Lakers will probably set every record this year. Here's why:

Phil is not just a coach he's their sixth man!
The media will adopt them as the team to beat and all attention will be on them again.
GP will make Kobe unreal and Karl will clear the path for abuse that we have never seen before from Shaq.
This will be Sterns team, so expect a 15 points cushion from the refs this year on every game.
If you thought it was odd that Kobe and Shaq never had fouls going into OT's before, you haven't seen anything yet.

As soon as you start seeing national ads for this team on every TV station and magazine look out, the parade has begun. I suggest we all have one month till operation Super Lakers begin.

For the record I think this will suck so bad there wont be words for it.:sour:


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

*"you have 600lbs of muscle"*

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ThatBlazerGuy</b>!
> All I have to say is......
> 
> 
> ...


I remember them, however correctly...

Clyde wasn't on that team and nobody handed them the title. Sports Illustrated predicted a Lakers/Pacers final that year.

Anyways if you want to compare them to the Lakers I'll give you Barkley being equal to Malone in terms of talent and Pippen to Payton. But I won't give you a 37 year old Hakeem to a 31 year old Shaq or Dickerson to Kobe.

You can't compare the old Blazers to them either because that team had 10 good talents, not 4 great talents. There will be no former all-start averaging 15 minutes a game on the Lakers next year.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!
> 
> 
> I remember them, however correctly...
> ...


Great points, Jemel. I must say, I'm mighty curious as to how it's all going to shake out. I like Ed's earlier metaphor of the mighty swing. This new Laker team might set all sorts of records in terms of wins in a season, team with the largest number of players going for 45+ over the season (as they continue to feed the hot hand), most assists in any one game and perhaps for average as well, and so on and so on. I also think some of the above thoughts regarding the potential for finger-pointing and other sorts of "melting down" have some merit as well. It certainly will be another interesting season to be sure.

All that said, how'd you like to be Rick Fox or whomever it is who turns out to be the fifth wheel for the "Fearsome Foursome."  Perhaps never in the history of the NBA has a role been so clear: play defense and get outta the way! Honestly I don't see their starting SF daring to take a shot unless it's a dunk or a shot with no defender within 10 feet. Players talk about it being hard to play with Jordan in that the temptation is to stand around and watch. In this case, anyone on the court with those four is likely to have his head spinning! At least Shaq and Malone aren't movin' all that fast these days.


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## Speed (Dec 31, 2002)

Clyde and Pippen never played on the same team.


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## Speed (Dec 31, 2002)

Malone and Payton took less money because they are hoping to ride Kobe and Shaq's coattails to title. They thought coming to LA would be an easy ride. After all- Malone thinks "I can be Samaki Walker." And GP thinks "I can be Derek Fisher."

But boy, will Kobe, Shaq, and the fans be pissed when they are slouching. And boy will GP and Malone be pissed when they look at Kobe and Shaq and wonder why they aren't doing everything they're supposed to.


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## MrWonderful (May 18, 2003)

*And this from Frank Hughes, ESPN:*

"In 1968-69, the Lakers had Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor and Jerry West. No title. The next year, Chamberlain, Baylor, West and Happy Hairston. No title. The year after that, Wilt, Elgin, The Logo, Hairston and Gail Goodrich. Even without Bill Russell in the league, no title. The next year, after three seasons with Wilt, the Lakers finally win the title."


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Hughes brings up probably the most relevant example. The Chamberlain-West-Baylor troika gave the Lakers three Hall of Famers and all still producing near their prime levels.

Those three were supposed to guarantee a title, but they didn't get one. As much as coaches tried to work their games together, one of the three was often marginalized. Often, that player was Wilt, the most dominant of the three...he was placed in the post and ended up passing to West and Baylor.

Those three never did win a title. It was only when Baylor retired that West and Chamberlain won a title...in the season that they ripped off the all-time best winning streak, 30+ games.

Throwing great players doesn't always work. And often, two stars with the right complimentary players are far, far better.


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