# OT: Francis to the Knicks



## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

talk about a mess of a team. and a $29 million dollar backcourt. Really - what the hell are they thinking?


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

They think in New York? That's news to me.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

I guess they _must_ now be trading Starbury. But when I heard Francis to NY I though "no freakin' way. They are dumb - but not _that _ dumb." 

That's one embarrassment of an organization.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

When you're thinking about how much you hate Danny Ainge...

...just be happy this team isn't run by Isiah "Don't Call me Isaiah!" Thomas.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

I thought having Marbury has a point guard was a bad idea to begin with. Now you're going to have Steve Francis and have them both backed up by Jamall Crawford.

Knicks in last for many years to come.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Call me crazy but I think it's a good trade for the Knicks.

A PG is what makes the team run, right? Well they can have the best combination ever. They can keep trying every game, and maybe they'll be sucessful at some point. Next up: Baron Davis.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Trevor Ariza for Stevie Franchise is a bad idea? I wish Danny had some bad ideas that involved (successfully) trading bench fodder for NBA starters. This does seem to lend credence to the ongoing Starbury to LA rumours, though.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

You'd want Danny to trade 15 mill in expiring contract for Steve Francis? Wow, I'm glad you aren't running the show for us. Plus you already have Marbs. I guess their cap situation was messed up so bad it didn't really matter anyways, but Francis doesn't make them a playoff team even, so why not just let Penny expire and keep the young talent?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> You'd want Danny to trade 15 mill in expiring contract for Steve Francis? Wow, I'm glad you aren't running the show for us. Plus you already have Marbs. I guess their cap situation was messed up so bad it didn't really matter anyways, but Francis doesn't make them a playoff team even, so why not just let Penny expire and keep the young talent?


Better Francis than Lafrentz. 

And what young talent? Qyntel Woods has beaten out Ariza at the 3, and J-Rose is the starter. New York wasn't going to be keeping him anyway. In essence they traded a player they didn't want for Marbury's replacement. New York has no interest in lowering the payroll, simply spreading out the rate at which contracts come off the payroll (so that they can do things like pick up NBA players for expiring deals). If Ainge could turn Lafrentz & Orien Greene into Steve Francis I would have cheered, and I don't like Francis. But Francis is productive, unlike the ginormous contracts that Danny trades for. :bsmile:


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## CanteriWalker (May 31, 2005)

And don't forget Penny is back to Orlando.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> You'd want Danny to trade 15 mill in expiring contract for Steve Francis? Wow, I'm glad you aren't running the show for us. Plus you already have Marbs. I guess their cap situation was messed up so bad it didn't really matter anyways, but Francis doesn't make them a playoff team even, so why not just let Penny expire and keep the young talent?


Exactly. You add a guy like Francis if you are in the hunt for a title. The Knicks are years away from fixing the mess they are in. Keep the young talent and trade the expirings for youth and picks. Adding Francis does nothing for the Knicks.

Last I checked LaFrentz contract was not expiring any time soon. Penny's is.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

CanteriWalker said:


> And don't forget Penny is back to Orlando.


The funniest part of the whole trade is this, the Magic have (essentially) traded T-Mac and a 2007 first round pick for Darko Milicic, Carlos Arroyo, Trevor Ariza and a chance for Penny to retire as a member of the Magic. Such a deal.

For the Knicks? They're moving Marbury, and needed a replacement. They got one. And got him for nothing. If Charles Dolan were like Wyc & Co., slashing payroll would be priority one (and for some unknown reason, idiots think that slashing payroll is a good thing). But Dolan isn't interested in cutting payroll beyond what's already been done (they used the luxury tax amnesty on Jerome Williams, and let Houston retire). They're at a point where Dolan is comfortable. Because the payroll is $100 million they can have several max players (unlike Boston which is strapped out because the owners won't pay the luxury tax and the Celtics have huge money tied up in mediocrity), allowing an expiring salary to lapse lessens their ability to acquire talent. Why do it? Clearing salary is a necessity if you have cheap owners (like the Celtics), but if your owner doesn't mind writing the checks, it isn't. It's tough for the Celtics to make trades because at this point everyone on their roster makes either minimal money or max/90% max money. New York, on the other hand, has a payroll with low range salaries, mid range salaries, high range/max salaries. And the ability to clear payroll for other teams. For other rebuilding teams, the Knicks are a desirable trading partner. They're easy to trade with under the CBA. What else are they supposed to do with a max salary? People don't trade prospects for expiring deals unless you're eating a ginormous contract tied to someone that can't play at all (like the Suns offering Marbury to anyone that would swallow Penny Hardaway's deal). Your options are to trade for Penny Hardaways or trade for productive players. This time Thomas chose the latter course. 

Thomas walked on to a franchise that was in far worse shape than the Celtics. Unlike Thomas, Ainge inherited a playoff team. The Knicks, on the other hand, had been run by the worst GM of the last quarter century (Layden had offered Kurt Thomas, filler and two firsts for Walker, had the Celtics owners not been cheapskates we'd have the Knicks' pick this year), and had a team whose two best players were aging/injured (Houston & van Horn) and whose best everyday player was Kurt Thomas. Their "young talent" consisted of third string point guard Frank Williams and Mike Sweetney. There's no question that they're better off today than they were two years ago at this time.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

I can't believe anyone would think what the Knicks are doing is smart in any way whatsoever, no thanx, I wouldn't want to be in their situation for anything at all!


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Brown sure looks excited:


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> Thomas walked on to a franchise that was in far worse shape than the Celtics. Unlike Thomas, Ainge inherited a playoff team. The Knicks, on the other hand, had been run by the worst GM of the last quarter century (Layden had offered Kurt Thomas, filler and two firsts for Walker, had the Celtics owners not been cheapskates we'd have the Knicks' pick this year), and had a team whose two best players were aging/injured (Houston & van Horn) and whose best everyday player was Kurt Thomas. Their "young talent" consisted of third string point guard Frank Williams and Mike Sweetney. There's no question that they're better off today than they were two years ago at this time.


Pardon the French, but what the **** are you talking about?

The Knicks are going to be stuck in last place for years to come and you think they're better off than the Celtics?

Isiah might be the worst GM since Layden. Hell, the guy might even be worse.


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## Attila (Jul 23, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> The funniest part of the whole trade is this, the Magic have (essentially) traded T-Mac and a 2007 first round pick for Darko Milicic, Carlos Arroyo, Trevor Ariza and a chance for Penny to retire as a member of the Magic. Such a deal.


 The deal was all about salary cap space. Do you know what kind of free agent you can sign at $15 million a year? 

To put things into perspective Pierce is making $13.8.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Attila said:


> The deal was all about salary cap space. Do you know what kind of free agent you can sign at $15 million a year?
> 
> To put things into perspective Pierce is making $13.8.



yea...someone like tracy mcgrady???



and also its not that easy....just bc they got a 15 mill exp contract doesnt mean they r 15 mill under the cap


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> yea...someone like tracy mcgrady???
> 
> 
> 
> and also its not that easy....just bc they got a 15 mill exp contract doesnt mean they r 15 mill under the cap


I think they're setting themselves up for a repeat of the summer when they got Tim Duncan.

Oh wait...that didn't work, did it?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

agoo101284 said:


> Pardon the French, but what the **** are you talking about?
> 
> The Knicks are going to be stuck in last place for years to come and you think they're better off than the Celtics?


I doubt they'll be in last place for years. And my statement was that the Knicks are in better shape than they were two years ago at this time. If you think a franchise built around Kurt Thomas, Keith van Horn and player whose knees went (Houston) is a recipe for success, well, I just can't help you. :bsmile:



Attila said:


> The deal was all about salary cap space. Do you know what kind of free agent you can sign at $15 million a year? To put things into perspective Pierce is making $13.8.


That doesn't change the fact that the Magic have traded Tracy McGrady and a lottery pick for Darko, Arroyo, and Trevor Ariza.


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## Attila (Jul 23, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> its not that easy....just bc they got a 15 mill exp contract doesnt mean they r 15 mill under the cap


 I'd rather have a chance at signing a top 20 player then having no chance at all and be stuck with an overpaid, shoot first point guard.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Attila said:


> I'd rather have a chance at signing a top 20 player then having no chance at all and be stuck with an overpaid, shoot first point guard.




yea...but sadly stevie franchise is much better than anyone who they will sign in the near future...sadly


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## Attila (Jul 23, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> yea...but sadly stevie franchise is much better than anyone who they will sign in the near future...sadly


 Mr Franchise seems to make his teams worse, not better. The Magic are probably better off even if they aren't able to sign any free agents. The fact that they might sign an all-star type player is just an added bonus.


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## BackwoodsBum (Jul 2, 2003)

Did any of you catch the Bill Simmons article on ESPN's web site? It's GREAT!!! I think his take on this trade is right on the money.

Here is a link

First annual Atrocious GM Summit


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## tdk1984 (May 9, 2005)

Causeway said:


> talk about a mess of a team. and a $29 million dollar backcourt. Really - what the hell are they thinking?


Woohoo! I'm glad IT works for NY. We don't look so pathetic. We're guaranteed to avoid the cellar and finish 4th, possibly even 3rd. However, it makes DA look like less of a ******* which is the major downside.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

tdk1984 said:


> it makes DA look like less of a *******




unpossible




yes...i said unpossible


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> yea...but sadly stevie franchise is much better than anyone who they will sign in the near future...sadly


I disagree. I'd like to play with Dwight Howard if I'm an all-star type shooting guard/small forward.

Its not like when they were going for Duncan when they had absolutely nothing.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

agoo101284 said:


> I disagree. I'd like to play with Dwight Howard if I'm an all-star type shooting guard/small forward.
> 
> Its not like when they were going for Duncan when they had absolutely nothing.



good point...but whos a free agent out there that would want to go to orlando?


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> good point...but whos a free agent out there that would want to go to orlando?


Oh, I could see plenty of players wanting to go there. For one they have a nice warm location which is always something free agents consider, whether we want them to or not....and players who play for Orlando LOVE the owner which is a bonus. But also they now have a nice young nucleus to build around in Dwight Howard, Darko Milicic, Jameer Nelson and even Carlos Arroyo.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Not to mention no state tax.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

very good points gentlemen i agree


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> good point...but whos a free agent out there that would want to go to orlando?


I'd go if I was a good player. Big money, nice weather, no state tax, Dwight Howard, Darko Milicic, and Jameer Nelson.

There are several who would take that gladly.


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## tdk1984 (May 9, 2005)

I'm not sure I'd consider Darko a selling point. He hasn't shown anything yet.


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## tdk1984 (May 9, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> That doesn't change the fact that the Magic have traded Tracy McGrady and a lottery pick for Darko, Arroyo, and Trevor Ariza.


The way you worded that makes it sound like they traded T-Mac to Detroit and got Ariza from them as well.


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