# Game 68: Pierce (28-39) vs. Kobe (34-34) "The Sequel"



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

at 

The Boston Celtics play the Los Angeles Lakers in their first game of the [spring] season at the TD Banknorth Garden in Boston, Massachusetts on Monday, March 20th (otherwise known as the Vernal Equinox at exactly 1:26 PM EST), 2006. The game will be at 7:30 PM EST and will be televised by







.

The Los Angeles Lakers' last game was against the Cleveland Cavaliers







, *L*, 95-96 *(*boxscore*)*.
The Boston Celtics' last game was against the Indiana Pacers







, *W*, 103-88* (*boxscore*)*.

The Boston Celtics' last game against the Los Angeles Lakers







, *W*, 112-111* (*boxscore*)*.

The  Lakers have won one of their last five games and the Celtics have won two of their last five games. The Lakers are 16-21 playing away from the Staples Center [including away games against the Clippers] and the Celtics are 19-14 at home. The Lakers score 98.7 points per game and give up 97.4 points per game. The Celtics score 98 points per game and give up 100 points per game.

The probable starters for each team:





 <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr></tr></tbody> </table> 







Roster | *Game Site* | Team Stats | *Schedule* | Season Splits | *Game Notes*
 <center>​ 







*Roster* | Game Site | *Team Stats* | Schedule | *Season Splits* | Game Notes
​ 
 *Game Preview** | *Please *wager* on this game at the* uCash Sportsbook !*​ </center>​  
Please visit the *Los *Angeles* Lakers *Forum* Game *Thread *!*


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

A reminder, _Prison Break _and _24_ are on tonight so activity may be low as some of our regular game thread posters are fans of these shows.

Also, remember to wager on this game as the odds are even meaning whatever team wins will also win the bet, making for a fun bet.

Chance to sweep the season series tonight. We won the first game agains the Lakers.


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## jimmywolfrey (Jan 17, 2006)

Yup it'll be hard to watch the game with those shows on..especially for me Prison Break.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

i'll be watching. i don't give a **** about NCAA or 24 or anything like that


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

The NIT is on tonight. I believe the 'tourney starts on the 23rd


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

If the NCAA tourney was on I'd be watching it :|

I will not watch the game sorry I need to see what happens on prison break


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

I like our chances. Pierce is beastly, Gomes tore up their frontline, West played well, and Wally (like it or not, hoop fans), has been rounding into form. As long as Bryant doesn't drop 50, we stand a good chance.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Agreed all around P-Dub.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Agreed all around P-Dub.


As usual.


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## justasking? (Oct 1, 2005)

Premier said:


> A reminder, _Prison Break _and _24_ are on tonight so activity may be low as some of our regular game thread posters are fans of these shows.
> 
> Also, remember to wager on this game as the odds are even meaning whatever team wins will also win the bet, making for a fun bet.
> 
> Chance to sweep the season series tonight. We won the first game agains the Lakers.


Good luck guys!!! I hope your team wins tonight. A lot of people put their UCash on your team too, myself included. So I hope you get the win! Pierce has been great... hope he has another monster game tonight. :clap: :cheers:


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## justasking? (Oct 1, 2005)

Premier said:


> A reminder, _Prison Break _and _*24*_ are on tonight so activity may be low as some of our regular game thread posters are fans of these shows.


 24! :yes:


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## P2TheTruth34 (May 25, 2003)

I tried to get tix to tonites game but it didnt work out... Ill def be watching the whole thing, lets go Paul rip on Kobe tonight baby, show your skills and take that punk on the box. I like kobe, but he aint the truth.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

The Lakers are looking_ so _good tonight. They're scoring a high percentage of their field -goals due to assists. Lamar Odom is playing very well and the Celtics are sluggish with turnovers and are not shooting a good percentage.

It seems like it will be a shoot-out, though.


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## AMΣRICAN GOD™ (Jun 4, 2005)

Off Topic, but did you know the Red Sox traded Arroyo for Willie Mo Pena? (More people read this than the Red Sox forum)

But please Paul, prove that Kobe Bryant isn't unstoppable.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Wally Szczerbiak needs to learn how to properly handle the ball.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Kobe Bryant is just _too_ good. Sure, he misses the one-handed reverse dunk, but his turnaround fallaway jumper from 18 feet is near automatic. Ryan Gomes is struggling as is Al Jefferson.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

TAllen42 said:


> Off Topic, but did you know the Red Sox traded Arroyo for Willie Mo Pena? (More people read this than the Red Sox forum).


Yeah, injury replacement for Manny and Trot. Should be a good utility outfielder. Arroyo has looked bad this spring training and we already have enough depth.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

What a block by Perkins.

I love this kid.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Glen Rivers is retarded. Why do you take Perkins out at all? Every time the kid has 2/3 _positive_ (yes, positive) trips down the court, the idiot takes him out.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Did anyone notice that Tommy said that Perk traveled? That's a first for Tommy - criticizing the refs for a non-call *on the Celtics*.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Premier said:


> Did anyone notice that Tommy said that Perk traveled? That's a first for Tommy - criticizing the refs for a non-call *on the Celtics*.


I think he said that Kobe traveled when he went into Perkins...they didn't call it a foul either...so Tommy made a "if anything" case.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

God, I'm listening to the Celtics broadcast and these commentators got the entire fact situation wrong with yesterday's game vs. Cleveland and the whole Kobe/Walton thing. They just delivered a false message out to hundreds of thousands of people that depicts Kobe in an inaccurate way. Morons.

They said Kobe was yelling at Walton because he passed the ball to somebody else and Kobe wanted to take the last shot. NOOOOOOO....Walton passed the ball to Kobe, but he had trouble inbounding it, so Kobe ended up having to go get it around half court and take a bad shot while the other four Lakers were standing still and watching. We had 3 TOs, so Luke should have used one.

AHHHH!!! I want to slap those two guys right now.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Paul Pierce on FSN (Commercial): If you guys don't want to learn anything about basketball watch Greg and Gary on FSN every night.

:rofl:


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Perkins
The Celtics are the world champs.


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## PatBateman (May 26, 2003)

It's fun going into the thread and reading all of the pre-game optimism only to check the score online and see we are getting killed by 15 right now.

Face it guys, the Celtics are a VERY mediocre team.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

I agree with Causeway in that there is a noticable improvement in Tony Allen's game. Just on the last play he showed good decision-making and good passing skills in laying it off to Perkins for the layup and the foul. Allen of last year would have tried to lay the ball in, thus commiting an offensive foul.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

PatBateman said:


> It's fun going into the thread and reading all of the pre-game optimism only to check the score online and see we are getting killed by 15 right now.
> 
> Face it guys, the Celtics are a VERY mediocre team.


I assume you missed sundays game where the Lakers blew a dobule digit 4th quarter lead?


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Tony's bothering Kobe a lot it seems.


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## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

Man, I hate these games. Kobe isn't going to let us back in, and Pierce is going to miss...Watch...


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## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

Ahhh, kobe even had to emphasize the contact and flop to get that call....


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

KingHandles said:


> Ahhh, kobe even had to emphasize the contact and flop to get that call....


If you're a Lakers fan...reading this quote is hilarious.

Kobe has gone to the FT line 20 times in the last five games. He has gotten beat up without any foul calls the most I have seen of any player. The Cleveland game and this one today were perfect examples of it. It's really been going on for the past few weeks. It's getting absurd. Soon, he's going to get seriously injured because of all the contact opposing players are getting away with.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Damian Necronamous said:


> Soon, he's going to get seriously injured because of all the contact opposing players are getting away with.




the only injury kobe is gonna get is a sore elbow from shooting 40 times a game


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## ZWW (Jan 17, 2004)

Or a sore brain from the inflated ego?


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Damian Necronamous said:


> If you're a Lakers fan...reading this quote is hilarious.
> 
> Kobe has gone to the FT line 20 times in the last five games. He has gotten beat up without any foul calls the most I have seen of any player. The Cleveland game and this one today were perfect examples of it. It's really been going on for the past few weeks. It's getting absurd. Soon, he's going to get seriously injured because of all the contact opposing players are getting away with.


I'm pretty sure the chances of him getting injured are the same no matter if he gets his foul or not.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> the only injury kobe is gonna get is a sore elbow from shooting 40 times a game


exactly!


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

well wasn't this game the ultimate pisser-offer. :curse:


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## AMΣRICAN GOD™ (Jun 4, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> *Glen Rivers* is retarded. Why do you take Perkins out at all? Every time the kid has 2/3 _positive_ (yes, positive) trips down the court, the idiot takes him out.



Don't you mean Doc?


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Glen "Doc" Rivers.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

With two 'n's.'


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Thank you, Prem. It's about time everybody realized it's "Glenn."



> Don't you mean Doc?


Uhh, did you think his parents named him "Doc"?

I think I began the "Doc doesn't even deserve to be called Doc anymore and as such will refer to him as 'Glenn'" coalition.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Thanks for the correction guys, but please come back to me when his name is worthy to be spelled with two n's. So far he hasn't earned it. 

:angel:


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

This game royally ticked me off, we were flat or we would have won this one, the Lakers are terrible. I'm sorry Lakers fans, I'm not picking on your team personally but I just can't see how you can stand watching Kobe make all his teamates into statues. That is not going to win you any championships. I mean Kobe is probably the 3rd best player in the league after KG and Duncan but I wouldn't want him on my team for anything and that's saying something (and I'm talking about this from a basketball only perspective too, not taking into account the added outside stuff).


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> Thanks for the correction guys, but please come back to me when his name is worthy to be spelled with two n's. So far he hasn't earned it.
> 
> :angel:


1 n. for Noob.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

whiterhino said:


> This game royally ticked me off, we were flat or we would have won this one, the Lakers are terrible. I'm sorry Lakers fans, I'm not picking on your team personally but I just can't see how you can stand watching Kobe make all his teamates into statues. That is not going to win you any championships. I mean Kobe is probably the 3rd best player in the league after KG and Duncan but* I wouldn't want him on my team for anything and that's saying something *(and I'm talking about this from a basketball only perspective too, not taking into account the added outside stuff).


To put it lightly, I disagree.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

yeah, **** the guy that's averaging 35 points a game.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

whiterhino said:


> This game royally ticked me off, we were flat or we would have won this one, the Lakers are terrible. I'm sorry Lakers fans, I'm not picking on your team personally but I just can't see how you can stand watching Kobe make all his teamates into statues. That is not going to win you any championships. I mean Kobe is probably the 3rd best player in the league after KG and Duncan* but I wouldn't want him on my team for anything and that's saying something * (and I'm talking about this from a basketball only perspective too, not taking into account the added outside stuff).


I agree. We'll see what happens but if Kobe continues in the direction he's going he will be remembered two ways. One is as a player that was fortunate to play with Shaq in Shaq's prime and get 3 rings. The other post-Shq Kobe - is on a path to be remembered as a super talented athelete and player - whose selfishness and lack of understanding what it takes for a TEAM to win led to a huge waste in the same vein as Marbury etc. Kobe will get his points. So far post-Shaq he's shown that's about it.


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## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

Meanwhile, his ex-partner Shaq, wins wherever the hell he goes...

Which duo was more of a threat? Kobe-Shaq/Wade-Shaq?


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Wade-Shaq. Not wanting to slit each other's throat helps the chemistry, ya know?


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Get back to me when Shaq wins a Championship without Kobe.

Kobe Bryant is the best player in the league.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> Get back to me when Shaq wins a Championship without Kobe.




get at me in a couple of months


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

wouldn't bank on it


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> Kobe Bryant is the best player in the league.


um...no. Best athelete? Possibly. Most talent? Possibly. Best _basketball player_? Nope. Not even close. If it was playstation and it was a one-on-one game I might take Kobe. But since it's a team game and teams win games - not scoring titles - no thanks on Kobe.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Causeway said:


> um...no. Best athelete? Possibly. Most talent? Possibly. Best _basketball player_? Nope. Not even close. If it was playstation and it was a one-on-one game I might take Kobe. But since it's a team game and teams win games - not scoring titles - no thanks on Kobe.




yep...i like kobe...but right now bron bron is the best basketball player in the league


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

nah i think it's Kobe. No one player can completely dominate a game like him, he's got the whole package.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

TheBigDonut said:


> nah i think it's Kobe. No one player can completely dominate a game like him, he's got the whole package.


He's does not "make players around him better" - however you define that. Without that you do not have the whole package IMO. Guys play with Nash and have career years. Artest goes to Sac and they go from lottery to playoffs. Guys go to LA with Kobe and at best stay the same. Usually their numbers and production goes down.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Kobe is a better offensive player than LeBron. Kobe is a better defensive player than LeBron.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> Kobe is a better offensive player than LeBron. Kobe is a better defensive player than LeBron.


Kobe this seasson: 34.7 PPG, 5.3 rebounds, 4.7 APG, + 27.24 EFF.
Lebron this season: 30.8, 7.2 rebounds, 6.7 APG, + 29.00 EFF.

How does that make Kobe a better offensive player? Defense is tough to measure but probably true although Kobe still takes too many chances looking for the "big" play.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

If you want statistics, Kobe has a more favorable PER, TS% at a higher shooting rate, turnover rate, etc.


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

Premier said:


> Get back to me when Shaq wins a Championship without Kobe.
> 
> Kobe Bryant is the best player in the league.


It's hard to disagree here.


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

Causeway said:


> Kobe this seasson: 34.7 PPG, 5.3 rebounds, 4.7 APG, + 27.24 EFF.
> Lebron this season: 30.8, 7.2 rebounds, 6.7 APG, + 29.00 EFF.
> 
> How does that make Kobe a better offensive player? Defense is tough to measure but probably true although Kobe still takes too many chances looking for the "big" play.


Just watch the games. Kobe is a way better on-the-ball defender.


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## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

I HATE LeBron more than I HATE Kobe, and I'll even give it to LBJ that he is the better of the two. Kobe's just a *****. If I had to be on the same basketball team as Kobe, I would want to be traded, no matter if we were winning championships or not.


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## pokpok (Jul 26, 2005)

how is kobe the best player when he cant even be a good teammate??? :biggrin:


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

We are talking about pure talent... and he's not as bad of a teammate as you guys make out. Ron Artest is a bad teammate. Terrell Owens is a bad teammate. Isiah Rider is a bad teammate. Kobe is a bit of a loner, a bit of a ball hog, maybe even a bit arrogent, but he isn't a bad teammate. He just wants to win and the other guys that he plays with can't really put the ball in the hole. He gets way too much of the blame for Shaq leaving. Jerry Buss, Mitch Kupchek, Shaq, etc... all deserve equal blame. Here is the bottom line, though... I am convinced that Kobe will win another title. I don't think that Shaq ever will. The big fella is on his last legs. I think all this Kobe bashing is just envy, jealousy, or something along those lines. Sorry, just my two cents.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

absolutebest said:


> We are talking about pure talent... and he's not as bad of a teammate as you guys make out. Ron Artest is a bad teammate. Terrell Owens is a bad teammate. Isiah Rider is a bad teammate. Kobe is a bit of a loner, a bit of a ball hog, maybe even a bit arrogent, but he isn't a bad teammate. He just wants to win and the other guys that he plays with can't really put the ball in the hole. He gets way too much of the blame for Shaq leaving. Jerry Buss, Mitch Kupchek, Shaq, etc... all deserve equal blame. Here is the bottom line, though... I am convinced that Kobe will win another title. I don't think that Shaq ever will. The big fella is on his last legs. I think all this Kobe bashing is just envy, jealousy, or something along those lines. Sorry, just my two cents.


it's not just envy and jealousy although that often comes up as a defense for Kobe as it's an easy one. it might be the case for some but too many fans just don't care for the guy. And it's not even because he's not on my team. I loved watching Jordan play. Same for Magic, Kareem and many others. As long as they were not playing my team it was fun to watch them. Kobe I do not in any way root for. sometimes he has sweet moves that are fun ESPN highlights. But in general it's painful to watch what a selfish player he can be. Especially since he does have the ability to pass. People lately have been talking about Bird because of the Pierce stuff. Bird as much as he scored etc. knew that to win he needed help. He needed other guys involved. Kobe does not get this. so throw around all the stats you want. Until Kobe gets that simple fact - and his teammates feel they are a part of something and not just getting the ball if Kobe is cold - he's a great talent that does not get it.


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## absolutebest (Jun 10, 2002)

Causeway said:


> it's not just envy and jealousy although that often comes up as a defense for Kobe as it's an easy one. it might be the case for some but too many fans just don't care for the guy. And it's not even because he's not on my team. I loved watching Jordan play. Same for Magic, Kareem and many others. As long as they were not playing my team it was fun to watch them. Kobe I do not in any way root for. sometimes he has sweet moves that are fun ESPN highlights. But in general it's painful to watch what a selfish player he can be. Especially since he does have the ability to pass. People lately have been talking about Bird because of the Pierce stuff. Bird as much as he scored etc. knew that to win he needed help. He needed other guys involved. Kobe does not get this. so throw around all the stats you want. Until Kobe gets that simple fact - and his teammates feel they are a part of something and not just getting the ball if Kobe is cold - he's a great talent that does not get it.


Bird played with McHale, D.J., Ainge, Parrish, Walton, etc... Kobe plays with Odom, Mihm, Smush, Brown and Cook.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

pokpok said:


> how is kobe the best player when he cant even be a good teammate??? :biggrin:


Kobe Bryant is a tremendous teammate. No other player in the league willingly does all he is able to do to make the *team* win. Kobe is smart - if he passes up his shot in favor of a less efficient shooter, the Lakers have a better chance at losing.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> Kobe Bryant is a tremendous teammate. No other player in the league willingly does all he is able to do to make the *team* win. Kobe is smart - if he passes up his shot in favor of a less efficient shooter, the Lakers have a better chance at losing.


Prem clearly you are a fan of Kobe's and that's cool. He is super-talented. But "No other player in the league willingly does all he is able to do to make the *team* win"??? Come on. The argument of "if he passes up his shot in favor of a less efficient shooter, the Lakers have a better chance at losing" is a common from Laker fans. But it's mis-informed. The only way Kobe's teammates get confidence is if they get the ball. And not just when Kobe is cold or at the end of the shot clock. They need to feel that their leader - Kobe - believes in them. If not they will be less likely to step up when chucked the ball at the end of the shot clock because Kobe has a double/tripple team on him.

Has any player who's been traded to the Lakers since Shaq left had their stock rise because of playing with Kobe? Maybe you could argue Mihm but not by much. You could make the case that while Odom etc. were not superstars before - who wants them more now than before they were Lakers?

There are many players other than Kobe willing to do things that might not get them stats or the scoring title - but things that help _teams_ win.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> No other player in the league willingly does all he is able to do to make the *team* win.




prem...i like kobe too but cmon...if he actually "willingly does all he is able to do to make the team win" then he would have shut his yap and played with shaq for 5 more years and won 5 more rings...


did u happen to see on sportscenter when the lakers were down by 3 with like 5 seconds left and kobe took a triple-teamed 3 instead of passing to the WIDE open brian cook or lamar odom???...personally i believe a wide open odom or cook ahs a better chance to hti a shot than a triple teamed kobe, even if they are a "less efficient shooter"


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## pokpok (Jul 26, 2005)

or the time when luke thru the ball in to another laker instead of kobe and he got mad at him...yep...GREAT TEAMMATE..

i really think that the lakers dont really give a Sht about winning anymore or playing to their potential...its more like..hey... ill pass the ball to kobe and watch him do his thing...

this is why lamar odom plays like a handicap.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Causeway said:


> The only way Kobe's teammates get confidence is if they get the ball.


They do get the ball. Kobe Bryant is not far and away the league leader in using possessions. Just because his teammates do not shoot all too often, it doesn't mean they do not see the ball. For example, Lamar Odom is notorios for being too passive when it comes to shooting. For all of the shots that Kobe takes, only one Laker is more efficient than him, Brian Cook, and let's consider how difficult it is to even attempt the amount of shots that Kobe takes [on the body]. The argument that the Lakers would do better if Kobe attempted less shots is invalidated by statistics, whether it be game result statistics (small sample size) or efficiency statistics (large sample size).



> And not just when Kobe is cold or at the end of the shot clock. They need to feel that their leader - Kobe - believes in them. If not they will be less likely to step up when chucked the ball at the end of the shot clock because Kobe has a double/tripple team on him.


As the opposing team's defensive game plan is focused exclusively on Kobe and possibly Odom, the remaining Laker teammates often see quite easy shots. As they selectively choose which shots to take, refraining from more difficult attempts, they have higher scoring efficiency percentages.



> Has any player who's been traded to the Lakers since Shaq left had their stock rise because of playing with Kobe? Maybe you could argue Mihm but not by much. You could make the case that while Odom etc. were not superstars before - who wants them more now than before they were Lakers?


Kobe is not a point guard, nor does he have to make his teammates better. The goal of basketball is to win and to win, your team must score more points than the other team. If you are an efficient and immensely scorer and can easily score from anywhere withing thirty feet, do you trust yourself to score or a teammate of inferior skill? I think the answer is quite obvious. Also, it's not like Kobe never records any assists. His Assist-Ration and PPR are respectable for someone who is the sole scorer for a team. His 4.7 assists per game is pretty decent.



> There are many players other than Kobe willing to do things that might not get them stats or the scoring title - but things that help _teams_ win.


You cannot possibly believe that Kobe Bryant does not care for winning. He is the most fiery of basketball competitors I have ever seen. Let's put it simply, if Bryant were to pass more, the Lakers would lose more.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> prem...i like kobe too but cmon...if he actually "willingly does all he is able to do to make the team win" then he would have shut his yap and played with shaq for 5 more years and won 5 more rings...


There are no verifiable accounts of Kobe forcing Shaq out of Los Angeles. Kobe gives it his all every night.



> did u happen to see on sportscenter when the lakers were down by 3 with like 5 seconds left and kobe took a triple-teamed 3 instead of passing to the WIDE open brian cook or lamar odom???...personally i believe a wide open odom or cook ahs a better chance to hti a shot than a triple teamed kobe, even if they are a "less efficient shooter"


Luke Walton passed the ball to Kobe thirty-five feet out from the basket with no chance for Kobe to pass to an open teammate. He was forced to take that shot because of Walton's inability to see wide open players. The play was designed for Kobe and apparently Walton decided that he should stick to it even though Bryant had no plausible chance at scoring from that distance with the amount of defenders covering him.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

pokpok said:


> or the time when luke thru the ball in to another laker instead of kobe and he got mad at him...yep...GREAT TEAMMATE..


During the Cavaliers game, Walton passed it to Kobe, not another Laker. Kobe yelled at him for doing so as Walton essentially cost the Lakers the game by not passing it to another Laker.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> Kobe is not a point guard, nor does he have to make his teammates better.


You can not possibly believe you have to be a point guard to lead. 




Premier said:


> You cannot possibly believe that Kobe Bryant does not care for winning. He is the most fiery of basketball competitors I have ever seen. Let's put it simply, if Bryant were to pass more, the Lakers would lose more.


I believe Kobe wants to win but not by sacrificing his own numbers. He was not happy winning when in meant giving up the ball and credit to Shaq. If Kobe got other players involved they might lose more in the short run but the only way any team goes deep in the playoffs - is as a team. Not one guy. Kobe will get what he really wants this season - the scoring title.



Premier said:


> There are no verifiable accounts of Kobe forcing Shaq out of Los Angeles.


um...ok. They would not even shake hands when the faced each other the first few times. It was only after Shaq stepped up did they finally say hello. It was obvious and verifiable that one of them had to go.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Causeway said:


> You can not possibly believe you have to be a point guard to lead.


Who is talking about 'leading?' The discussion was making your teammates better (which I personally believe does not exist, but that's beyond my point). Check the Lakers this year. Every player but Deavon George is having a good year, relative to their past years. Smush Parker, Kwame Brown (lately), Chris Mihm, Brian Cook, etc. Last year, it was Chucky Atkins, Jumaine Jones, and Caron Butler. I don't like the topic though, so I won't bother arguing something so vague.



> I believe Kobe wants to win but not by sacrificing his own numbers. He was not happy winning when in meant giving up the ball and credit to Shaq. If Kobe got other players involved they might lose more in the short run but the only way any team goes deep in the playoffs - is as a team. Not one guy. Kobe will get what he really wants this season - the scoring title.


How do you know that Kobe just didn't like Shaq, personally? The Lakers, with Kobe being passive, aren't very good at all (the equivalent of the Celtics in a tougher conference). I don't think you understand this. Without Kobe being aggressive, the Lakers wouldn't be able to compete with teams with better rosters in the Kings.



> um...ok. They would not even shake hands when the faced each other the first few times. It was only after Shaq stepped up did they finally say hello. It was obvious and verifiable that one of them had to go.


It takes two to tango._ If_ Kobe 'forced' out Shaq in Los Angeles, then Shaq had as much to do with his departure from the Lakers as Kobe did.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> It takes two to tango._ If_ Kobe 'forced' out Shaq in Los Angeles, then Shaq had as much to do with his departure from the Lakers as Kobe did.




ok so lets just say for the hell of it that shaq was responsible for some of the headaches and reason why he left...if Kobe really "did everything he had to do to help his team win" he wouldve kept quiet let shaq cause all the problems in the world and not said a damn thing...that would be doing what you have to do to help the team win...swallowing his pride and playing ball


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Kobe does not control the Lakers. Mitch Kupchak does.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> Kobe does not control the Lakers. Mitch Kupchak does.


Actaully star players do have some control in many cases. I don't think you understand this.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

His post implies that Kobe has sole control over the Lakers.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> His post implies that Kobe has sole control over the Lakers.


no one knows what really went down except for those involved. However you can read between the lines enough to make an educated guess that if Kobe sat down Shaq and Mitch and said "I just want to win. I could care less about having dinner with Shaq and his wife. I just want to win. I can play with Shaq and be the #2 guy and be happy with it...". If something like that happened Shaq would still be in purple and gold and LA would have had a great shot at a title last season and this season.

I for one am happy that Kobe's ego is bigger than his desire to win as a team and now the LAL are a .500 team.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

We do not know that Shaq, himself, requested to be traded. Why are you faulting Kobe when only a handful of people know what actually happened. By logic, it can be just as much Shaq's fault for his departure as Kobe's.

The Lakers, with comparable rosters, are better than the Celtics in a tougher conference. Wonder why?


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> Kobe does not control the Lakers. Mitch Kupchak does.




vince took control of the raptors when he wanted to be traded didnt he??


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> We do not know that Shaq, himself, requested to be traded. Why are you faulting Kobe when only a handful of people know what actually happened. By logic, it can be just as much Shaq's fault for his departure as Kobe's.


I thought Mitch controlled what happened? So since we don't really know - what is your opinion of what went down?



Premier said:


> The Lakers, with comparable rosters, are much better than the Celtics in a tougher conference. I wonder why.


I would not say the Lakers are much better - although I would say Jackson is a better coach than Doc. 

The Lakers finished last season with pretty much the same roster and a different coach 2-19. That is a team that quit. I wonder why? Lack of leadership from thier non-point guard star?


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Causeway said:


> I thought Mitch controlled what happened?


Obviously, Kupchak cannot control the feelings of his players, but he can control the exact transactions that the Lakers are involved in. 



> So since we don't really know - what is your opinion of what went down?


Not opinion; guess. Kobe and Shaq had their differences and they mutually agree to disassociate. Neither player could've prevented this without full cooperation from the other player.



> I would not say the Lakers are much better - although I would say Jackson is a better coach than Doc.


True.



> The Lakers finished last season with pretty much the same roster and a different coach 2-19. That is a team that quit. I wonder why? Lack of leadership from thier non-point guard star?


Kobe Bryant of last season is a much different player than Kobe Bryant of this season.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Bill Simmons 



> *16. L.A. Lakers*
> 
> Interesting work from 82games.com last month, which kept track of everyone's stats in game-winning situations (24 seconds or less: tie game, down by one, down by two) for the past two-plus seasons. Carmelo had the best numbers -- 8-for-14, and that was before he made two more game-winners in the past three weeks. *One of the worst guys? Kobe Bryant ... 6-for-25*. You read that correctly.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

I don't think I said he was clutch. Let's remember that he is at least double-teamed during this situation, which doesn't help his average.

Simmons is wrong, too. Kobe is 7 for 28 (the actual 82games.com article)


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> I don't think I said he was clutch. Let's remember that he is at least double-teamed during this situation, which doesn't help his average.
> 
> Simmons is wrong, too. Kobe is 7 for 28 (the actual 82games.com article)


No but you did say he was the best player in the NBA.

And if as you say he's "at least double-teamed during this situation" perhaps he should think about passing the ball instead of shooting. Just a thought.

the 82Games article has been updated since it was first written.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Causeway said:


> No but you did say he was the best player in the NBA.
> 
> And if as you say he's "at least double-teamed during this situation" perhaps he should think about passing the ball instead of shooting. Just a thought.




a "great teammate" would think about that huh


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

More from that same 82Games article:



> *Kobe Bryant* meanwhile has indeed had seven such made shots over the past two and a half seasons (including playoffs), but at a pretty low conversion rate, even factoring in his free throws.
> 
> *The other thing with Kobe and a number of go-to guys is that they are not looking to pass the ball! Zero assists in these "final possession" states for Bryant with 28 shots taken (the most for any player with zero assists) says something. *
> 
> *Paul Pierce is one of the few star scorers who also dole out assists in the waning moments*, with a nice balance of made baskets, free throws, and five dimes.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Premier said:


> We do not know that Shaq, himself, requested to be traded. Why are you faulting Kobe when only a handful of people know what actually happened. By logic, it can be just as much Shaq's fault for his departure as Kobe's.


That Lakers squad unofficially ended when Bryant collapsed under questioning by Colorado authorities and dragged Shaq into his legal difficulties. From that point forward it was a one or the other situation. When Bryant's legal troubles were cleared up, the Lakers opted to commit to the younger Bryant. Personally I think they would have been better off dealing Bryant to the Clippers for Brand, Maggette and a first, but that's just me. In any event there was nothing anyone could do to make that partnership work after Bryant told the Eagle County prosecutors about Shaq and his mistresses.



Premier said:


> The Lakers, with comparable rosters, are better than the Celtics in a tougher conference. Wonder why?


One, the Lakers have a better roster. Two, they have better coaching. That's why they have a better record. Yes, Bryant is better than Pierce, and Bryant & Odom's ability to run the offense has allowed a combo guard like Smush Parker to flourish at the 1 (wait, I thought Kobe made teammates worse? How is it that Smush, who's been loitering in the NBDL, has turned into an NBA player in LA?). The irony is that they'll finish their rebuilding while we're still waiting for next year.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

I'll offer the Cleveland game as an example.

I previously stated:



> Luke Walton passed the ball to Kobe thirty-five feet out from the basket with no chance for Kobe to pass to an open teammate. He was forced to take that shot because of Walton's inability to see wide open players. The play was designed for Kobe and apparently Walton decided that he should stick to it even though Bryant had no plausible chance at scoring from that distance with the amount of defenders covering him.


First of all, Kobe has little chance (and by chance, I mean time) to pass the ball during these moments. Secondly, there is no wrong in Kobe trusting himself over an unproven shooter/scorer with the game on the line.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> First of all, Kobe has little chance (and by chance, I mean time) to pass the ball during these moments. Secondly, there is no wrong in Kobe trusting himself over an unproven shooter/scorer with the game on the line.


That was one example. The Lakers as you stated are at least as good as Boston (I'd say better) yet Pierce is one of the best at getting an assist in these situations. And if Kobe's 7 for 28 then I'd say there is something wrong with not considering a pass once in a while.

Again:



> Zero assists in these "final possession" states for Bryant with 28 shots taken (the most for any player with zero assists) says something.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

If Kobe is 7-28, how do you expect his teammates to do under these same situations? Pierce has three three-point shooters in Delonte West, Raef LaFrentz, and Wally Szczerbiak.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> If Kobe is 7-28, how do you expect his teammates to do under these same situations? Pierce has three three-point shooters in Delonte West, Raef LaFrentz, and Wally Szczerbiak.


Except - as you said - since Kobe would have "at least 2 defenders on him" it would not be the same situation. Somebody would have an open shot.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Basic crunch-time defensive set-up against an inbound pass past the half-court line has the team's best weak-side help defender in the middle with the other big man defender at the high post, covering his man and doubling the ball-handler if he near him. The perimeter players are all guarded unless it is absolutely necessary to leave them open to prevent dribble-penetration. That leaves Kobe's options to Brian Cook and Kwame Brown for an open jump shot.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

By the way, Causeway, I would like to say that I've enjoyed this debate.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Come on, Prem. It's not like Bryant doesn't have any guys that can stroke a jump shot.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> Basic crunch-time defensive set-up against an inbound pass past the half-court line has the team's best weak-side help defender in the middle with the other big man defender at the high post, covering his man and doubling the ball-handler if he near him. The perimeter players are all guarded unless it is absolutely necessary to leave them open to prevent dribble-penetration. That leaves Kobe's options to Brian Cook and Kwame Brown for an open jump shot.


That's simplifinig the situation. However even if every time it happened exactly as you said it - and Kobe is hitting the shot at a rate of 7-28 - you'd think once in a while getting the ball to an open Cook or Brown would be worht a shot.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> By the way, Causeway, I would like to say that I've enjoyed this debate.


Me too. Nothing wrong with a little civil hoops debate.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Causeway said:


> That's simplifinig the situation. However even if every time it happened exactly as you said it - and Kobe is hitting the shot at a rate of 7-28 - you'd think once in a while getting the ball to an open Cook or Brown would be worht a shot.


I cannot locate the amount of game-winning opportunities the Lakers have had, but I'm sure that Kobe has passed the ball in these situations and his teammates have failed at least once. 82games did an article on measuring the clutchness of all players in the NBA. The findings concluded that Kobe was 21st in the league in terms of being clutch, with only one Laker rating higher, Slava Medvedenko with an astonishing *six minutes played this season*. Kobe is the clutchest player on the team. The ball should be in his hands during these situations.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> I cannot locate the amount of game-winning opportunities the Lakers have had, but I'm sure that Kobe has passed the ball in these situations and his teammates have failed at least once. 82games did an article on measuring the clutchness of all players in the NBA. The findings concluded that Kobe was 21st in the league in terms of being clutch, with only one Laker rating higher, Slava Medvedenko with an astonishing *six minutes played this season*. Kobe is the clutchest player on the team. The ball should be in his hands during these situations.


The only way to answer this question is to see if in "clutch" situation somebody else besides Kobe gets the ball. If as I suspect the answer pretty much is no then saying "Kobe is the clutchest player on the team" means nothing.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

That information was from last season. My mistake.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Come on, Prem. It's not like Bryant doesn't have any guys that can stroke a jump shot.


Exactly.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> The perimeter players are all guarded unless it is absolutely necessary to leave them open to prevent dribble-penetration.


Okay, so what you're saying is in crunch time, perimeter options are guarded. Then I don't understand the following:



> Pierce has three three-point shooters in Delonte West, Raef LaFrentz, and Wally Szczerbiak.


I don't get it - all of Bryant's perimeter options are always so covered he can't pass the ball, but Pierce's perimeter options are left open for the pass? That doesn't make sense (unless you're saying Pierce should pass it to one of these guys for a tightly contested shot). All that can be gathered from these contradictory statements is that when Bryant takes the shot, his perimeter options are guarded, whereas when Pierce does, he has a bunch of 3pt shooters at his disposal (presumably, who are open, because why pass to a guarded player?)

Don't get me wrong, I think Bryant is better, too, but your argument is very weak right here.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

P-Dub34 said:


> I don't get it - all of Bryant's perimeter options are always so covered he can't pass the ball, but Pierce's perimeter options are left open for the pass? That doesn't make sense (unless you're saying Pierce should pass it to one of these guys for a tightly contested shot). All that can be gathered from these contradictory statements is that when Bryant takes the shot, his perimeter options are guarded, whereas when Pierce does, he has a bunch of 3pt shooters at his disposal (presumably, who are open, because why pass to a guarded player?)


The difference is that Pierce has enough confidence in great three-point shooters like West and Szczerbiak as they have proven that they can make contested shots under pressure (well, Delonte at least as I haven't really seen too much of Wally in Minnesota). The same cannot be said for Kobe. What Pierce can do this situation is dribble the ball around the arch and hope for a quick doubl-team and bounce pass the ball out to one of his shooters. Another method, would be setting a double-screen, but this requires more time. All of this would give the shooters not even a second head-start with their shot release. Kobe does not have the luxury of having very good three-point shooters like Delonte (who has proven he can knock down tough shots). So, Kobe would either have to drive through the lane to free up a big man for an open shot or draw a second defender from the perimeter and give 'okay' shooters a small window to hit a tough shot. I see Pierce's situation as more favourable. My statements were a little over-zealous and I should have further explained them. My apologies.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> Kobe does not have the luxury of having very good three-point shooters like Delonte.




odom: 38% 3s

parker: 37% 3s

cook: 44% 3s

walton: 35% 3s

vujacic: 34% 3s



all VERY comprable to delontes 40% 3s


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Sorry to be late with this response. I had almost finished a previous response, but unfortunately, it did not send. I'm going to be paraprhasing what I typed before:

Cook has attempted 64 three-point attempts; Walton 37.

Odom has shown to be a terrible shooter during 'clutch-time,' which is defined as five minutes left in the fourth quarter or overtime with neither team having a lead exceeding five and with less than three seconds left on the shot-clock. He shoots an eFG% of 25%.

Vujacic has yet to attempt a shot in this situation.

Kobe's eFG% during this situation: 54.2%

Only Smush Parker is the Lakers other option during this situation with a very good eFG% of 62.5%.


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