# Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners for Ben Gordon?



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Ben Gordon took going back to the bench last week with class, but it's likely to be an issue hanging over the Bulls as he becomes eligible for an extension after next season.
> 
> Gordon sees himself as a starter and is unlikely to settle for a reserve role. Players become especially concerned with minutes as their extension time nears. That's why Gordon's name often comes up in trade rumors.
> 
> ...


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...ith,1,4606212.column?coll=cs-bulls-navigation


Trading Gordon for a number 1 pick??? Reminds me of the Brand trade years ago. 

If Gordon is to be traded, I think it would be in a package for a star.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

There's no need for a third first this year.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

Sam Smith must be the worst sports writting in the history of the nba,

david


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

Why is Sam Smith talking such nonsense? The Bulls have had 2 good wins since the line up change and he wants to either Brand us again or trade for a 4 year vet that still has Chandler playing the 5. 

There have to be a number of GM's in this league that would love to have a scorer like Gordon over a top 3 pick in this years draft. If you trade Gordon to Seattle we better be getting Allen or Lewis back in return. I'll give them Sweetney for Collison certainly not Gordon.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



> There's no need for a third first this year.


There isn't a need, but I still wouldn't mind another or to upgrade ours. At this moment I would be happy with we could go the Thomas and Roy route, but I don't see that happening as is.

The third pick would create alot of options, it's tough to gauge what we could obtain with 2 high draft picks via trade and is really the moot point. Would it be enough to pry someone like Bosh away from Toronto? Or any other star for that matter, well one that fits in with our age bracket.

Gordon for Charlotte's pick would get a huge resounding no from me, even with the concerns about Gordon as our long term solution at the 2. This type of deal would make or break the team and it's pretty ballsy to suggest such an idea, I commend him for that. But for the following, he should be shot.


> Even when Nick Collision returns from injury, Wilcox probably will continue to start. The Bulls long have eyed Collision as the kind of rugged power forward they like, one who is smart and can step out and make a shot. A deal for Gordon?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

I agree with all of you. Gordon for a pick is a no-no.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



truebluefan said:


> I agree with all of you. Gordon for a pick is a no-no.


Someone should ask Sam why he keeps wanting to trade Gordon. That q and a thing is going to be weekly, I believe.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

Word is that Charlotte wants Morrison, but so apparently do Portland and several other teams. I think Gerald Wallace is athletic enough to guard shooting guards, so it would work. If Morrison is off the board before Charlotte ends up picking, I think Bernie would definitely be interested in Gordon. Teaming up Gordon with Okafor would make a lot of sense. 

I really like Brandon Roy, and he'd probably be available with Charlotte's high first rounder, but I don't have the balls to do something like that. Paxson is not a riverboat gambler. Seeing the results of the Brand trade, I don't thinkn he'll give up a known commodity for something risky at this point.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

i am not at all interested in crazy sam's idea about trading gordon for a pick (though how ironic would it be if the bulls ended up with collison and the cats with gordon - UConn and Kansas - reunited!).

but i am interested in knowing our opinions on *what team in the league would gordon automatically start at the 2?*

i mean maybe, just maybe, his talent is best served coming off the bench and being available during crunch time. heck, there is a quote today *from ben* in the paper about "hey, it worked last year and we went away from it". HELLO! that's right ben, and you came off the bench.

sigh.

anyway, now that kirk has moved back to SG, will we hear complaints from him how he is playing out of position again? i highly doubt it.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



mizenkay said:


> i am not at all interested in crazy sam's idea about trading gordon for a pick (though how ironic would it be if the bulls ended up with collison and the cats with gordon - UConn and Kansas - reunited!).
> 
> but i am interested in knowing our opinions on *what team in the league would gordon automatically start at the 2?*
> 
> ...


You know what this team really needs? Brandon Roy.

I think I just hit my breaking point today. Brandon Roy is "my guy." It's happened. The epiphany has hit me.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

ok, this may be a good place to post this little "nugget of excellence" i found in a search of bulls blog last week. a guy over there (joejoe english) had a IM convo with ben about a trade rumor involving rashad lewis. and at the end of the message was this:





> *Ben-I'm not unhappy here, I just wish I had more of a chance to do other things than just shoot, I think I am best when I have the ball in my hands at the point*



so. ben sees himself as a point guard. (lol) now i can adjust my query somewhat:

*on what team would ben start at either the ONE or the TWO?*









http://www.blogabull.com/story/2006/3/23/19711/6232


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



mizenkay said:


> ok, this may be a good place to post this little "nugget of excellence" i found in a search of bulls blog last week. a guy over there (joejoe english) had a IM convo with ben about a trade rumor involving rashad lewis. and at the end of the message was this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Teams that might start Ben at the 2 guard position:

Toronto?
Charlotte
Orlando
Houston
New Orleans
Denver
Portland
Utah
Sacramento?


Teams that might start Ben at the point: 

Atlanta (he and Johnson could be co-point guards)
Toronto?
Boston?
Cleveland?
Lakers (he'd be a good second scoring option w/Kobe)

There are more possibilities than I thought when I read your question, Miz.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

i won't even entertain his thoughts....

his ideas are no better than forum posters...

they want morrison, not gordon


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

So Ben, Mr one word to everyone other than me (and only cos I got in there only) suddenly came out with that?

I doubt it. Ben in his IM's will always toe the professional line, because if he doesn't this happens. If he did say that, of course......that was dumb


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*


```
Meanwhile, Bobcats general manager and coach Bernie Bickerstaff is saying that with an abundance of big men, the team will look for a scorer with their No. 1 pick
```
YEP :biggrin: 

He just confirmed what the bobcats fans have already been saying bernie's been talking about....

The Bobcats HAVE bigs, Ely, Brezec, Okafor, May...there is NO NEED for them to draft Tyrus or LaMarcus with their pick...

They need to sell tickets with some names of star appeal and they need a scorer....Morrison can do both...

If the draft goes accordingly, we should land Tyrus @ #2 if he declares.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



> If the draft goes accordingly, we should land Tyrus @ #2 if he declares.


But that leaves out Roy


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



step said:


> But that leaves out Roy


yeah, i understand but bulls need bigs in the worst way....


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



The ROY said:


> yeah, i understand but bulls need bigs in the worst way....


 and we have a thread (actually a few) discussing this.

what about ben and his desire to start? what do you think about that?


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



mizenkay said:


> so. ben sees himself as a point guard. (lol) now i can adjust my query somewhat:
> 
> *on what team would ben start at either the ONE or the TWO?*


Sadley, the same could be asked of all our players. Our "core" guys, as of right now (not "potentially") are fringe starters.... Tyson may be the only exception (and thats not because he's our best player, its because their is ALWAYS a lack of Bigs who aren't complete stiffs....). Is there a lot of teams Deng would start on? Nocioni? Even Hinrich wouldn't start on half the teams in the league...

Sheesh. That kinda brings ya down when ya think about it. But then again, this teams goal is to be more then the sum of its (subpar) parts.. lol. So I guess that really doesnt matter anyways.... :krazy:


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



mizenkay said:


> and we have a thread (actually a few) discussing this.
> 
> what about ben and his desire to start? what do you think about that?


i don't think long term fit in CHICAGO at the two...even short term for that matter...he'll probably wind up traded


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Jim Ian said:


> Sadley, the same could be asked of all our players. Our "core" guys, as of right now (not "potentially") are fringe starters.... Tyson may be the only exception (and thats not because he's our best player, its because their is ALWAYS a lack of Bigs who aren't complete stiffs....). Is there a lot of teams Deng would start on? Nocioni? Even Hinrich wouldn't start on half the teams in the league...
> 
> Sheesh. That kinda brings ya down when ya think about it. But then again, this teams goal is to be more then the sum of its (subpar) parts.. lol. So I guess that really doesnt matter anyways.... :krazy:


I don't give out rep, but this post would get it from me.

Here's the silly thing: Gordon wants to be PG, but they won't give him any time at PG to prove himself or improve himself.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



The ROY said:


> i don't think long term fit in CHICAGO at the two...even short term for that matter...he'll probably wind up traded



thanks. and i am beginning to agree.

:smilewink


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



mizenkay said:


> thanks. and i am beginning to agree.
> 
> :smilewink


I still love the kid.... but it's the truth..


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



> Is there a lot of teams Deng would start on?


Yes.



> Nocioni?


Certainly there are some, but he doesn't really even start for the Bulls.



> Even Hinrich wouldn't start on half the teams in the league...


That is a HUGE stretch. Especially the way that Hinrich has been playing the last couple of months. 



> Sheesh. That kinda brings ya down when ya think about it.


Only if you believe it.



> But then again, this teams goal is to be more then the sum of its (subpar) parts.. lol.


Interesting. That is, in fact, the very definition of what a team is *SUPPOSED* to be.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

*Tony (Chicago):* Do you think Ben Gordon will finally agree that he is a 6th man now? He just gets to worn down when he starts. 


*Marc Stein: (12:10 PM ET)* No. Gordon is not going to like it. He might not complain publicly -- kudos to him for that -- but everything I've heard suggests he really wants to start. That said, I agree with Skiles' contention that he's more productive as a sixth man.





http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=11205


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Ron Cey said:


> That is a HUGE stretch. Especially the way that Hinrich has been playing the last couple of months.


Hinrich last 5 games:
5-15
7-9
4-11
4-13
4-12
5 total rebounds
4.8 assists
15.2 points
Bulls record 2-3


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



> Here's the silly thing: Gordon wants to be PG, but they won't give him any time at PG to prove himself or improve himself.


I actually think he needs to become one in order to succeed, well to reach the superstar status that is. However this will never happen if he's with the Bulls, there is no way he'd be able to take Hinrich or even Duhon's minutes away, let alone play through the many mistakes that would come with the change.



> i don't think long term fit in CHICAGO at the two...even short term for that matter...he'll probably wind up traded


I'm sort of half half, there are days where I can see it working if both he and Hinrich manage to become more consistent. And there are days where I don't, and think to myself that maybe we should capitalize on his high value now before it's too late.

Starting to think of it, maybe the trade could be worthwhile... still mulling it over


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



DaBullz said:


> Hinrich last 5 games:
> 5-15
> 7-9
> 4-11
> ...


I didn't say last 5 games. I said last couple of months. Every player in the league can be made to look statistically less valuable than they are based on selecting the right 5 game stretch.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

i thought this thread was about ben? but don't let that stop you. 


*KH in March*

MPG - 36.4	
FG% - .463	
3pt FG - .462	
FT% - .848 
APG. - 5.6 
PPG - 18.1


that doesn't exactly suck.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Ron Cey said:


> I didn't say last 5 games. I said last couple of months. Every player in the league can be made to look statistically less valuable than they are based on selecting the right 5 game stretch.


It's crunch time, dude. Playoff push. And all that.

No excuses, eh?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



step said:


> I actually think he needs to become one in order to succeed, well to reach the superstar status that is. However this will never happen if he's with the Bulls, there is no way he'd be able to take Hinrich or even Duhon's minutes away, let alone play through the many mistakes that would come with the change.


That kind of thinking may end up costing the bulls championships. We've pegged lots of guys into specific roles that they're not their best: Hinrich guarding big guards, Nocioni at PF, etc.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

This question as to whether I would trade Ben Gordon for the draft pick that brings Brandon Roy...I'm going to have to mull that one over for a while.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

crunch time!

you mean when ben went 3-10 against the heat for 6 points? or how about 3-15 v. the pacers for 9?

it's what you make it. or what you read into it.

since going back to the bench (last two games) BG has shot 9-15 for 25 points and 6-15 for 17 points, respectively.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



mizenkay said:


> crunch time!
> 
> you mean when ben went 3-10 against the heat for 6 points? or how about 3-15 v. the pacers for 9?
> 
> ...


Ben had some really good games starting too. I'm not willing to label his stint starting a bust. I certainly hope the lineup change that Skiles made will propel us into the playoffs though.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Ben had some really good games starting too. I'm not willing to label his stint starting a bust. I certainly hope the lineup change that Skiles made will propel us into the playoffs though.


 yes he did. and i am not hatin'. i LOVE ben. but he is what he is and he has his flaws _like they all do._. trust me, i may groove on kirk too, but he's not perfect either. 

*but here is the thing, if it is best for the TEAM that he comes off the bench, especially down the stretch, then it's best for the TEAM.*

pax is talking about getting a big SG in here to bolster the backcourt and relieve kirk of having to always guard the bigger guy. he's not talking about getting another PG in here. 

think about it.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



DaBullz said:


> It's crunch time, dude. Playoff push. And all that.
> 
> No excuses, eh?


Oh brother. I was responding to Jim Ian's post that Hinrich wouldn't start for half the teams in the league. That is a general statement. 

If you want to isolate his last 5 games, then by all means post however you see fit. But that isn't the notion I was responding to.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



DaBullz said:


> It's crunch time, dude. Playoff push. And all that.
> 
> No excuses, eh?



Sure, but when a guy says something, and then you quote a different stat, that's not exactly apples to apples.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



step said:


> I'm sort of half half, there are days where I can see it working if both he and Hinrich manage to become more consistent. And there are days where I don't, and think to myself that maybe we should capitalize on his high value now before it's too late.


I think it hit home for me when Skiles said he didn't think it was fair that Hinrich has to guard the oppositions best guard, being that it takes alot of energy and makes him more tired on offense...

If Hinrich was a PG, ALL GAME..he'd be top 10 in the nba...I also believe he'd be putting up about 18 per game instead of 14....

He hasn't grown much at all being subjected to playing out of position...I applaud him on his effort but it's very unfair to him IMO......


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



jnrjr79 said:


> Sure, but when a guy says something, and then you quote a different stat, that's not exactly apples to apples.


He chose an arbitrary period of time in which to cherry pick his stats from. The last 5 games may be equally an arbitrary period of time, but it is crunch time, like I said.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



The ROY said:


> I think it hit home for me when Skiles said he didn't think it was fair that Hinrich has to guard the oppositions best guard, being that it takes alot of energy and makes him more tired on offense...
> 
> If Hinrich was a PG, ALL GAME..he'd be top 10 in the nba...I also believe he'd be putting up about 18 per game instead of 14....
> 
> He hasn't grown much at all being subjected to playing out of position...I applaud him on his effort but it's very unfair to him IMO......


 exactly. and you'll never hear him complain about it either.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



DaBullz said:


> He chose an arbitrary period of time in which to cherry pick his stats from. The last 5 games may be equally an arbitrary period of time, but it is crunch time, like I said.



Fair enough. It seems to me the longer the sample period, however, the less arbitrary it is. I do understand though that it is crunch time now and that it's important to see what his put up or shut up numbers are.

Still, as to the point of whether he'd start for other teams, a longer sample size seems more relevant to me.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

ok, here is an arbitrary stat.

BG playoffs: 14.5 PPG

KH playoffs: 21.5 PPG


:biggrin:


CRUNCH!


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



mizenkay said:


> exactly. and you'll never hear him complain about it either.


YEP...

I think they will go out of their way to get him some help though this offseason...

As much as I love Rodney Carney, Brandon Roy & Kirk Hinrich would be the PERFECT combination...That would be a hell of a backcourt...

Good thing is, Ronnie Brewer may fall to OUR pick since alot of other players stock is rising....

We may get our positions filled regardless...


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



The ROY said:


> YEP...
> 
> I think they will go out of their way to get him some help though this offseason...
> 
> ...



Roy for R.O.Y.

By the way, nice choice of screen name. I guess you like Brandon too.

:banana:


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Roy for R.O.Y.
> 
> By the way, nice choice of screen name. I guess you like Brandon too.
> 
> :banana:


LOL I had this name for about a year now, before I knew who he was

I like Roy though, I like Carney more personally but A ROY/HINRICH backcourt is a championship combo IMO...those kids are winners


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



jnrjr79 said:


> Fair enough. It seems to me the longer the sample period, however, the less arbitrary it is. I do understand though that it is crunch time now and that it's important to see what his put up or shut up numbers are.
> 
> Still, as to the point of whether he'd start for other teams, a longer sample size seems more relevant to me.


If a larger sample size is good, then maybe his career stats would be in order. Or the whole season.

Regardless, the more telling thing about the last 5 games is that he's remarkably inconsistent. The time period that Cey chose was the best 2 month stretch of Hinrich's career. His season and career are full of 4-14 type games with the occaisional all-star (truly stunning) stat line.

And all that does bring into question whether he'd start for as many teams as some believe.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

I'm with DMD. I could almost see the Bulls jersey on Roy in his last 2 games of the tourney. But he's played himself into the 5-8 range, so we'll either have to take him with the NY pick or find a way to move up a few spots from our pick if we want him. I'd dangle Duhon and see if there are any teams in that range who want him and are targeting a guy who might fall to 10-13. Roy is a good ballhandler and playmaker, so I think a backcourt of Kirk, Roy, and Ben would be fine. Ben and Roy could share the court without too much dropoff in ballhandling from Kirk IMO.

hopefully we'll get Thomas or Aldridge with NY's pick and Roy with the next pick. Failing that, Brewer, O'Bryant, or Shelden would be good choices as well. I'm just a huge Roy fan - I was almost bummed to see him play so well in the tournament (and raise his stock out of our range) because I'd jumped on his bandwagon midseason when a couple UW games were on TV here.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



> I think it hit home for me when Skiles said he didn't think it was fair that Hinrich has to guard the oppositions best guard, being that it takes alot of energy and makes him more tired on offense...
> 
> If Hinrich was a PG, ALL GAME..he'd be top 10 in the nba...I also believe he'd be putting up about 18 per game instead of 14....
> 
> He hasn't grown much at all being subjected to playing out of position...I applaud him on his effort but it's very unfair to him IMO......


Spot on. It pretty much shares the same sentiment as DaBullz post.


> That kind of thinking may end up costing the bulls championships. We've pegged lots of guys into specific roles that they're not their best: Hinrich guarding big guards, Nocioni at PF, etc.


Indeed. I'm going to have to sit down and have a good long think about this, so I don't keep changing my mind.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

If the bulls go for a big guard, it's going to be diminished minutes for gordon.

So let's look at Sam's trade idea and embellish it a little.

How about Gordon and OUR first pick to Charlotte for Gerald Wallace?


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

Seems like Sam, Pax & Skiles are on the same page. They want to turn the Bulls into "the greatest college team to ever play in the NBA".

Trade Gordon for Nick Collison.

Draft Morrison & Reddick.

Do a sign-and-trade involving Pryzbilla & 1 of their 1st round picks for Chandler. Use the pick to get Kevin Pittsnogle.

Then package Deng & Duhon for Steve Blake and re-sign Fred Hoiberg!!!

Next years roster:

PG - Kirk Hinrich (the #1 guy)
SG - J.J. Reddick
C - Joel Pryzbilla
PF - Nick Collisson
SF - Adam Morrison
Bench
Steve Blake
Eric Piatkowski
Luke Schensher
Kevin Pittsnogle
Darius Songalia
Andres Nocioni
Fred Hoiberg


I bet Pax, Skiles & Sam would circle jerk one another if they could pull this one off.

:curse:


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



DaBullz said:


> If the bulls go for a big guard, it's going to be diminished minutes for gordon.
> 
> So let's look at Sam's trade idea and embellish it a little.
> 
> How about Gordon and OUR first pick to Charlotte for Gerald Wallace?


you're supposed to put sarcasm in green.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



DaBullz said:


> If the bulls go for a big guard, it's going to be diminished minutes for gordon.
> 
> So let's look at Sam's trade idea and embellish it a little.
> 
> How about Gordon and OUR first pick to Charlotte for Gerald Wallace?


isn't wallace a SF though? if he was a SG, I'd do it instantly..


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



DaBullz said:


> If the bulls go for a big guard, it's going to be diminished minutes for gordon.
> 
> So let's look at Sam's trade idea and embellish it a little.
> 
> How about Gordon and OUR first pick to Charlotte for Gerald Wallace?



That's absurd!!!!! Wallace was a free agent last off-season and the Bulls didn't pursue him. He's probably not Skiles' kind of player. 

Personally, I would have give him JC type money to come here. His raw energy and freakish athleticism is exactly what this Bulls team is lacking. Someone that is a L-O-A-D for a defense to deal with.


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



ViciousFlogging said:


> I'm with DMD. I could almost see the Bulls jersey on Roy in his last 2 games of the tourney. But he's played himself into the 5-8 range, so we'll either have to take him with the NY pick or find a way to move up a few spots from our pick if we want him. I'd dangle Duhon and see if there are any teams in that range who want him and are targeting a guy who might fall to 10-13. Roy is a good ballhandler and playmaker, so I think a backcourt of Kirk, Roy, and Ben would be fine. Ben and Roy could share the court without too much dropoff in ballhandling from Kirk IMO.
> 
> hopefully we'll get Thomas or Aldridge with NY's pick and Roy with the next pick. Failing that, Brewer, O'Bryant, or Shelden would be good choices as well. I'm just a huge Roy fan - I was almost bummed to see him play so well in the tournament (and raise his stock out of our range) because I'd jumped on his bandwagon midseason when a couple UW games were on TV here.



I don't like Roy because although he's smart, he's another guy who has middle-of-the-road athleticism. He won't be as effective at the next level as he was in college because of that.


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Ron Cey said:


> Oh brother. I was responding to Jim Ian's post that Hinrich wouldn't start for half the teams in the league. That is a general statement.


Indeed, it is a general statement. It's also a true one.

I don't think it's a stretch to say he wouldn't start on NJ, Philly, the Cavs, the Pistons, The Bucks, the Heat, Milwakuee, Dallas, San Antonio, Denver, Golden State, The Clippers, 

Then there are a few pushes... the suns, (Raja Bell is having a hell of a year) Possibly on Indy (I don't know how much the Pacers like Tinsley), The lakers (Smush parker is having a good year as well.)

Thats 15 just off the top of my head....

Now, before you go screaming to the heavens, this is NOT a knock on Hinrich. He's a good player. But the combo-guard position is possibly the most packed position in the NBA. Being in the middle of the pack isn't a terrible thing, it doesn't mean your awful, it's just a comment on how GOOD that position is throughout the NBA....


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Bulls4Life said:


> I don't like Roy because although he's smart, he's another guy who has middle-of-the-road athleticism. He won't be as effective at the next level as he was in college because of that.


I may have to agree with you there..

That's why I like Carney over him in the NBA...his talent and ability should translate just fine...


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Jim Ian said:


> Indeed, it is a general statement. It's also a true one.
> 
> I don't think it's a stretch to say he wouldn't start on NJ, Philly, *the Cavs,* the Pistons, *The Bucks,* the Heat, Milwakuee, Dallas, San Antonio, Denver, Golden State, The Clippers,
> 
> ...



well anyway, i think kirk would start on the cavs and the bucks (twice) but *let's get back to the topic* and to my question of:


what teams would *BEN GORDON* start on? either at SG or PG? since the thread is about his unhappiness (supposedly) about coming off the bench.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Bulls4Life said:


> I don't like Roy because although he's smart, he's another guy who has middle-of-the-road athleticism. He won't be as effective at the next level as he was in college because of that.


Similar sentiments have been uttered about Deng and guys like Paul Pierce in past drafts. Roy played against some good competition this year and in the tourney, and got penetration almost at will, and generally made good decisions once he got a step. He's not an elite athlete, but he's athletic enough to get it done. The other SG/SF prospects are intriguing too. If we end up with Carney or Brewer or someone like that, I'll be satisfied. I just think Roy's easily the most complete player of any of them, and a big-time winner to boot.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



> How about Gordon and OUR first pick to Charlotte for Gerald Wallace?


Wallace is one of my favourite players, I'd do it in a heartbeat.


> isn't wallace a SF though? if he was a SG, I'd do it instantly..


He's a guard/forward, 6-7!
He's phenomenal. Leading the league in steals and is 10th in the NBA in blocks, and 4th in FG%. I swear I remember there was an article on him not so long ago, I just forgot where .
Found it -ESPN Insider 


> Ask a fan to name the best forwards in basketball, and he might rattle off 40 names before he gets to Wallace ... if he/she even remembers that Wallace is still in the league. Yet the Bobcats forward has played at an All-Star level this year, shooting 53.7 percent thanks to his explosive finishing skills off the wing. And defensively, he's turning into the second coming of Andrei Kirilenko. Wallace currently leads the league in steals and ranks 10th in blocked shots. If he keeps it up, it would make him one of just a handful of players in league history to finish a season ranked in the top 10 in both categories.
> 
> Wallace is still improving, as well. He's only 23 years old and is really in only his second season of action, because he spent three seasons at the end of Sacramento's bench before the Bobcats stole him in the expansion draft. As a result, he figures to be one of the game's top forwards for a long time coming.
> 
> Yet relatively few people even know who he is, which is why Wallace gets my vote for captain of the All-Underrated Team -- he is the single most underrated player in the entire NBA.


Since per is used quite alot here, his is 21.10.


> That's absurd!!!!! Wallace was a free agent last off-season and the Bulls didn't pursue him. He's probably not Skiles' kind of player.


I believe the opposite, I think he's definitely a Skiles type of player, however I don't believe they even considered him with the success our guard rotation had last year.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Bulls4Life said:


> Seems like Sam, Pax & Skiles are on the same page. They want to turn the Bulls into "the greatest college team to ever play in the NBA".
> 
> Trade Gordon for Nick Collison.
> 
> ...


Right. Because they are racists.

And if they were trying to create the "greatest college team" why the hell would they trade Gordon, Duhon and Deng who are 2 national champs and a final-four-attendee-regional-MVP, respectively?

But I guess it was more about making sure all the players in your little hypo are white than it is your actual stated Pax/Skiles' plan of creating "the greatest college team to ever play in the NBA".

With the many draft picks Paxson has used, he has drafted one white player. He has signed 2 white free agents, Nocioni and Songaila, that I doubt many people would quarrel with. 

For the most part, since he got to Chicago, Skiles has started an all-black lineup with the exception of Hinrich.

In other words, do tell how Paxson and Skiles only want white guys. I'm listening.


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



mizenkay said:


> well anyway, i think kirk would start on the cavs and the bucks (twice) but *let's get back to the topic* and to my question of:
> 
> what teams would *BEN GORDON* start on? either at SG or PG? since the thread is about his unhappiness (supposedly) about coming off the bench.



Over a healthy hughes and bron-bron? interesting. 

sorry about the double Milwakuee... i do love that town but... 



Ok Miss Miz, I'll get back on topic now:

I don't think the story of what teams he would/wouldnt start on is much different for Gordo then it is for Hinrich. They are at similar situations in that they play at one of the most packed positions out there. Breaking the starting lineup for half the teams out there... prolly wouldn't happen.

As for Gordo, he's shown himself to be a guy that absolutely, without a doubt, deserves to be in the game during the 4th quarter. And that he deserves the ball with less then 5 to play (are you listining scotty?) BUT.... I don't think he's shown (yet) that he's a bona fide starter. Espicially not at the 2. If he can't improve his PG skills, it just may be he'll be coming off the bench most of the time (kinda a drab outlook fo a #3 pick, but I digress...)

His "D" is not awful. Its improving. BUT... Guarding any big SGs with post skills is pretty much out of the question. He's a strong guy, but anyone 6'5" and over that can post him up.. WILL. Allllll day.

I also think things for him would look a lot different if he wasn't 3rd on the PG depth chart. Seems he rarely gets a chance to set up a play or create for others (through a designed play, not a broken play). I'm really suprised at the lack of time he gets at the point. Eventually Skiles/Pax HAS to see what he can do there. If hes not capable... find out. If he is... find out. At least then you can plan what to do with/about him. Trade him/find a compliment (at which position)/etc....


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Jim Ian said:


> Over a healthy hughes and bron-bron? interesting.
> 
> sorry about the double Milwakuee... i do love that town but...


well i was thinking that hinrich >> eric snow. right?

also better than jason williams in miami at THE POINT, but i digress.



and at the end of the day, i think DUHON is really the odd man out in any kind of future guard rotation.

kirk
ben
BIG SG




duhon

cause i *don't want to trade ben* just to trade him, that's nuts. i just want what is best for the team. and if that is ben as the 6th man extraordinaire, then how is that a bad thing? he would still get major minutes and be in there in the end, when it truly matters. ya know, like last year.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



> cause i don't want to trade ben just to trade him, that's nuts. i just want what is best for the team. and if that is ben as the 6th man extraordinaire, then how is that a bad thing? he would still get major minutes and be in there in the end, when it truly matters. ya know, like last year.


It works out fine now, but later on down the line, do you honestly think Ben will be satisfied with the 6th man role? I don't.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Here's what Sam Smith does. He takes the best player who won't cater to his ego on a personal level and tries to run them out of town by suggesting a trade every day and acting like it's actually in the works. When Mark Cuban actually writes an article about a writer, you know the guy is a chump. I mean it's one thing for a billionaire like Cuban (who many rightfully think is a stroke) to dislike someone. But when someone who is a Billionaire takes that much time to actually write about a guy, he must be off base. 

Curry and Crawford for Dixon and Brown was all I needed to read to know that Smith is an idiot. Crawford definitely sucked, but his perceived value wasn't THAT low. This was while the Bulls were HOT in 03-04.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



mizenkay said:


> well i was thinking that hinrich >> eric snow. right?
> 
> also better than jason williams in miami at THE POINT, but i digress.
> 
> ...


So here's my scenario:

We draft Roy with the NY pick. With our pick, we take the best big available, most likely either O'Bryant, Sheldon Williams, or Hilton Armstrong. 

We go after Gooden hard first, and if Cleveland is threatening to match our first bid, we trade them Duhon. I don't really want to trade Du, but the thought of having two of Hinrich, Roy, and Gordon on the court almost all the time manning our guard positions is quite appealing. Next, we go after the best backup center we can find, be it Nazr, Wright, or Ely. If we had to part with Duhon, we sign a journeyman vet pg like Chucky Atkins. 

Here's what all that might look like:

Hinrich, Duhon/Atkins
Gordon, Roy, Basden
Deng, Nocioni
Gooden, Songaila, Sweetney 
Chandler, Nazr, O'Bryant


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

i wouldn't be mad at that, DMD!


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> We draft Roy with the NY pick.


How high are you advocating we take Roy?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Hinrich, Duhon/Atkins
> Gordon, Roy, Basden
> Deng, Nocioni
> Gooden, Songaila, Sweetney
> Chandler, Nazr, O'Bryant


I don't know if that's a roster that will ever win a ring, but I have to admit it looks pretty solid.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I don't know if that's a roster that will ever win a ring, but I have to admit it looks pretty solid.


 right. but next year isn't about winning a ring. next year is about getting closer to EC finals/contending. it's about WINNING THE CENTRAL!!


wouldn't that be sumpin'!!?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Ron Cey said:


> How high are you advocating we take Roy?


I undertand what you are getting at, but I agree with DMD. If we are drafting for need, and want Roy, we might have to take him with the Knicks pick, even if it is one of the tops. Or we could trade down a slot or 2 if we are confident we'll still get our man. That might make Roy go quite a bit higher than he would if everyone was drafting from a best player available perspective, but if we end up with who we want with both picks, and if the combo of players DMD described is the best combination of what we want to fill our primary needs, I can't argue the logic.

It is likely that at least one of the bigs in DMD's post will still be on the board for the Bulls pick. It is unlikely at this point that Roy will still be there, assuming the Bulls pick to be late lottery or just out of the lottery.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



mizenkay said:


> well i was thinking that hinrich >> eric snow. right?
> 
> also better than jason williams in miami at THE POINT, but i digress.
> 
> ...


Good luck breaking that Duhon news to Skiles.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Frankensteiner said:


> Good luck breaking that Duhon news to Skiles.


 lol. skiles is going to just have to get over it.



:biggrin:


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*

Chump or not, he was right that Crawford and Curry would go, and I think he's right that Ben will go sooner or later.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

I would like to get a player with a higher ceiling than Roy with that Knicks pick. As such, I'm not in support of the idea. 

Aldridge, Thomas, McRoberts, Carney, and Bargnani are probably better choices for that pick. Even drafting one of Rudy Gay/Adam Morrison and getting something for Luol Deng is a better option. I think each of those players has more star potential than Roy.

Also, I don't think the gap between Roy and some of the 2nd tier SGs (Brewer, Carney -- if you believe he's behind Roy) likely to be available with our 2nd pick is as large as the gap between Aldridge/Thomas/McRoberts/Bargnani (i.e. big men available with our 1st pick) and Shelden Williams, O'Bryant, and Hilton Armstrong.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Mikedc said:


> Chump or not, he was right that Crawford and Curry would go, and I think he's right that Ben will go sooner or later.


I think he's right, too. I think its inevitable. And I'm all for it.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Ron Cey said:


> How high are you advocating we take Roy?


Here's how I look at it. I am almost as sure as I could be that Paxson will be a major advocate of Roy as a player. As far as I can tell, he's a perfect Pax/Skiles guy, and yet he would bring a new skillset to the team, and he fills a need that Paxson mentioned prominently yesterday. If Paxson has the #1 pick, being that I am pretty sure he will think highly of Roy (a proven commodity), he'll have to really like one of the bigs, and if he does, hopefully it will work out. I think Thomas and Noah are too raw right now, so if that pick was Aldridge, I would understand going that way. I think LaMarcus can turn out to be better than Channing Frye, which is pretty good.

I don't really think of Brandon as the surefire superstar you'd like out of a #1 pick. Then again, there's no LeBron in this draft, so I don't think that guy exists this year. It is more likely that our pick will be somewhere in the 2-5 range anyhow, and if Roy is on the board at that point, and LaMarcus is off the board, I would scoop up Roy and not worry about where he is supposed to be picked or any of that garbage. If you think a player is going to be great, you take him, like Babcock did with Charlie V, and if you're right, everything works out.

So right now I am at a toss up between Aldridge and Roy at the top of my personal draft board. I like Roy better as a player, but I recognize our need for size. I reserve the right to switch my order on those two. I will also closely monitor Noah and Thomas in the remainder of the tournament to see if they move ahead of LaMarcus in my eyes.

I also don't know enough about Bargnani to know one way or another on him, but given more information (video tapes of full games, etc), he might go to the top of my draft board.

So, in conclusion, I'm definitely comfortable with Roy as the #2 pick. And just for the record, our dear friend HKF thinks Roy will be the rookie of the year.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Wow. Roy didn't really impress me that much. Admittedly, I've only seen him play a couple of times. He looks like a pretty ordinary first rounder to me. 

But I rarely take a strong position on a potential draftee unless I feel I have a sufficient knowledge base to do so. I don't with Roy.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*




The ROY said:


> isn't wallace a SF though? if he was a SG, I'd do it instantly..


I thought he was an SG. At least he played it against the bulls early in the season. Anyhow, he's listed as a G-F on yahoo, ESPN.com, and just F on NBA.com. I think he'd be a great SG for us.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



DaBullz said:


> I thought he was an SG. At least he played it against the bulls early in the season. Anyhow, he's listed as a G-F on yahoo, ESPN.com, and just F on NBA.com. I think he'd be a great SG for us.


I think he typically plays the 3 for them, but he can definitely play the 2.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Sam Smith: Bobcats trading partners?*



Ron Cey said:


> I think he typically plays the 3 for them, but he can definitely play the 2.


He started at SF in a November game we won 109-105 in overtime (but I clearly remember him playing some SG, too).

His stat line:
11-16
1-2 3pt
5-10 FT
5 reb
4 ast
5 stl
28 points

He's 24 years old, too.


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