# Bosh for Noah in S&T?



## vinsanity77 (May 1, 2006)

hey Bulls fans,

I just read from realgm that the raps are interested in a Bosh S&T not for Lee nor Beasley, but for Noah!

From the raptors perspective, i think it is an awesome trade for us, but I'm not so sure if the bulls would pull the trigger or not.

Would you guys do this trade?


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

I don't think there's a sign and trade for Noah that would work, at least not that the Bulls'd be interested in.


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## calabreseboy (Nov 17, 2004)

Noah is the heart and soul of this team. I'm not sure trading him for Bosh would make us that much better. Having him AND Bosh on the same is the goal me thinks. We can afford it.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Bulls need Noah.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Yeah I'm thinking that Noah is pretty much untradeable at this point, unless it's for a real stud, and Bosh isn't that good. I'm talking a Dwight Howard type.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

You guys are ****ing hilarious.

Bosh is worth 10 times what Noah is. He's the heart and soul of your team, that's great, but to try to act like you wouldn't trade him straight up for Bosh is ridiculous.

Not to mention how ridiculous it is to think the Raptors would base a S&T around Noah when they have way better offers on the table.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> You guys are ****ing hilarious.
> 
> Bosh is worth 10 times what Noah is. He's the heart and soul of your team, that's great, but to try to act like you wouldn't trade him straight up for Bosh is ridiculous.
> 
> Not to mention how ridiculous it is to think the Raptors would base a S&T around Noah when they have way better offers on the table


lmao at the head clown:smackalot: 10 times?, please.....exaggerate much?

.....whether you know it or not, bosh is a UFA; the bulls don't HAVE to trade noah for bosh, further one's a PF the other's a center. the bulls most likely would want to pair them together, not create a hole while trying to fill another. also, and more importantly toronto doesn't have nearly the leverage to ask for noah in a s&t; that only becomes relevant (as i understand it) if bosh wants to make toronto add a 6th year to his deal. as i also understat it, that year is worth a lot of money, but the bulls still DON'T have to give toronto anything of value. maybe those "better" offers will allow themselves to be raped by toronto so that bosh can go to a weaker team but for more money, but why should he do that? if he's about winning, he'll say screw the extra cash, i'm going to miami/chicago/ or where ever and toronto can go f themselves.

noah won't get traded for bosh; but if he does it'll only signal that much more of the FO'S incompetent team building.....
__________________


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

BULLHITTER said:


> lmao at the head clown:smackalot: 10 times?, please.....exaggerate much?
> 
> .....whether you know it or not, bosh is a UFA; the bulls don't HAVE to trade noah for bosh, further one's a PF the other's a center. the bulls most likely would want to pair them together, not create a hole while trying to fill another. also, and more importantly toronto doesn't have nearly the leverage to ask for noah in a s&t; that only becomes relevant (as i understand it) if bosh wants to make toronto add a 6th year to his deal. as i also understat it, that year is worth a lot of money, but the bulls still DON'T have to give toronto anything of value. maybe those "better" offers will allow themselves to be raped by toronto so that bosh can go to a weaker team but for more money, but why should he do that? if he's about winning, he'll say screw the extra cash, i'm going to miami/chicago/ or where ever and toronto can go f themselves.
> 
> ...


Toronto isn' worried about how great the team is that Bosh gets traded to. The only thing they're worried about is getting as good a return as possible for their franchise player.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

The Bulls would be shooting themselves in the foot if they trade Noah for Bosh.

In principle, yes I would do the deal. Bosh is clearly the superior player.

However, there's this thing called leverage. Bosh has all the leverage here because he could easily just sign w/ the Bulls for the max. Granted, this is less money than if he did sign and trade, but he would also go to a team that has Noah still intact to rebound and do dirty work.

Also, the Bulls would not trade Noah for Bosh, when they could just as easily make Amare or Boozer their #1 priority as unrestricted free agents. Noah + Boozer >> Bosh + Some random center (Asik?)

That's why it probably won't happen.

But, let's say Bosh were already on a lengthy deal, and Noah were on a lengthy deal...then yeah, you take Bosh.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

yodurk said:


> The Bulls would be shooting themselves in the foot if they trade Noah for Bosh.
> 
> In principle, yes I would do the deal. Bosh is clearly the superior player.
> 
> ...


No way Toronto lets Bosh walk for nothing though. It's a definite sign and trade. 

I understand why you guys wouldn't want to trade Noah. But if the deal was on the table, the Bulls would do it in a heartbeat.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

R-Star said:


> You guys are ****ing hilarious.
> 
> Bosh is worth 10 times what Noah is. He's the heart and soul of your team, that's great, but to try to act like you wouldn't trade him straight up for Bosh is ridiculous.
> 
> Not to mention how ridiculous it is to think the Raptors would base a S&T around Noah when they have way better offers on the table.


Well most of us would not want to part with Noah. His energy and play on both ends of the court has been key all season long. As Bulls fans we would rather sign Bosh out right than gut the team. 

That being said, if we sign a quality FA first THEN trade for Bosh that included Noah in the package, I would not be against that, but to trade for Bosh with Noah when we could have signed Bosh out right? No..

And no, Bosh is not worth 10 times more. Sorry.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

R-Star said:


> No way Toronto lets Bosh walk for nothing though. It's a definite sign and trade.
> 
> I understand why you guys wouldn't want to trade Noah. But if the deal was on the table, the Bulls would do it in a heartbeat.


You keep forgetting this is the same FO that would not trade Deng for Gasol a few years ago. They tend to fall in love with their players. Bulls fans do too. 

So how is Toronto even in the mix here? If Bosh wanted to go, he is under no obligation to ask for a sign and trade that should have been done at trade deadline! If I were bosh and if I was going to leave for sure, why would I care about Toronto? In fact, I would not want the team I was going to gutted just to make room for me. Just adding himself to the Bulls would vastly improve the team! No need for any sign and trade.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> You keep forgetting this is the same FO that would not trade Deng for Gasol a few years ago. They tend to fall in love with their players. Bulls fans do too.
> 
> So how is Toronto even in the mix here? If Bosh wanted to go, he is under no obligation to ask for a sign and trade that should have been done at trade deadline! If I were bosh and if I was going to leave for sure, why would I care about Toronto? In fact, I would not want the team I was going to gutted just to make room for me. Just adding himself to the Bulls would vastly improve the team! No need for any sign and trade.


Star quality big mean don't leave for nothing when they enter FA anymore. A sign and trade is almost always worked out.

I would be willing to be $1000 of my own money if it were possible that Bosh will leave via S&T this summer. Teams are willing to do a S&T because they don't want to see their prize FA decide to sign with another team. 

Honestly, there's absolutely 0 chance of Bosh leaving Toronto for nothing. It won't happen and the whole "why trade for him when we can just sign him during the offseason without giving up any players." is silly. It's Chris Bosh, not Tim Thomas. Toronto will be getting something back in return.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

R-Star said:


> No way Toronto lets Bosh walk for nothing though. It's a definite sign and trade.


...unless Bosh decides to just sign outright. Which he might, if he wants any kind of talent of the team he's signing with. Really depends what his priorities are, money or winning.



> I understand why you guys wouldn't want to trade Noah. But if the deal was on the table, the Bulls would do it in a heartbeat.


They'd do it only as a last resort, IMO.

If the Bulls call up Bosh and offer the 5-yr Max deal, and he says "No I want more money, let's do S&T", I think the Bulls will send out feelers to the Boozer, Amare, and David Lee camps. I think Boozer and David Lee in particular won't seek sign/trade deals, as nobody wants to pay them more than $14-15M per year anyways.

Bulls would rather have Boozer/Noah or Lee/Noah, than Bosh/crap...is basically what I'm saying.

If the Bulls get turned down by all camps, then yeah they will come back and explore S&T w/ Bosh. It will take ALOT to reach that point though.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> That being said, if we sign a quality FA first THEN trade for Bosh that included Noah in the package, I would not be against that, but to trade for Bosh with Noah when we could have signed Bosh out right? No..


In theory I can buy this approach (sign a free agent center, then S&T Noah/fillers for Bosh), however the problem is there aren't any good free agent centers available.

Conversely, there is a handful of very good free agent PF's. If Bosh doesn't sign straight up and wants S&T, then we have plans B, C, and D to fall back on. None of them being a sure bet to sign, mind you.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

R-Star said:


> Star quality big men don't leave for nothing when they enter FA anymore. A sign and trade is almost always worked out.


Why?

Only 1 reason comes to mind, and that's because they make more money.

Maybe that's reason enough. As I said above, it depends where Bosh's priorities are (money versus having a more competitive roster to play with).

Also, can you cite any examples?

When Shaq left the Magic back in 1996, he just signed out right w/ the Lakers. Magic got nothing in return, I believe.

Carlos Boozer left the Cavs, they got nothing in return. Okur left the Pistons, they got nothing in return.

I honestly can't think of any star-level players who have recently done sign & trades anywhere. Joe Johnson comes to mind, but I think Atlanta had to do that, as they weren't under the cap far enough (I could be wrong there).


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

yodurk said:


> ...unless Bosh decides to just sign outright. Which he might, if he wants any kind of talent of the team he's signing with. Really depends what his priorities are, money or winning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Understandable. I understand the reasoning behind it, I just highly doubt Bosh will outright sign with anyone.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Why?
> 
> Only 1 reason comes to mind, and that's because they make more money.
> 
> ...


J Oneal among others have done sign and trades. A lot of the time the team trading for the player will do it to save some money as you said. Usually a good young player and a pick are there, but a lot of times a bloated contract is added in so that the team gets to ship off some unwanted cap.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

R-Star said:


> You guys are ****ing hilarious.
> 
> Bosh is worth 10 times what Noah is. He's the heart and soul of your team, that's great, but to try to act like you wouldn't trade him straight up for Bosh is ridiculous.
> 
> Not to mention how ridiculous it is to think the Raptors would base a S&T around Noah when they have way better offers on the table.



What offers. Bosh is going to be an unrestricted FA.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> What offers. Bosh is going to be an unrestricted FA.


The offer to that come around anytime a star player is about to hit free agency. 

I don't know why people are acting as though this is some sort of new idea.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

R-Star said:


> The offer to that come around anytime a star player is about to hit free agency.
> 
> I don't know why people are acting as though this is some sort of new idea.



Sure, but Bosh seems like a guy who's leaving whether it's S&T or just signing elsewhere. So, I'm not sure people are going to be lining up with equivalent talent for him.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Why?
> 
> Only 1 reason comes to mind, and that's because they make more money.
> 
> ...


Did Malone sign out right with the lakers or was he traded for? I dont remember.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Why?
> 
> Only 1 reason comes to mind, and that's because they make more money.
> 
> ...


I can't think of any superstar players that left a team outright either. Shaq left Orlando because he knew he could make more money in LA. It was more of a financial decision than basketball decision as that Magic team he had with Penny was a contender. Boozer on the other hand signed with Utah because Cleveland was lowballing him, which is again a financial decision.

The bottom line is Bosh understands that this will be the biggest contract of his career and I just can't imagine him not getting the most out of it. It specially doesn't make any sense to sell himself short just so he can play for the Bulls, a team that's a long shot to make it to the finals with or without Bosh.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Sure, but Bosh seems like a guy who's leaving whether it's S&T or just signing elsewhere. So, I'm not sure people are going to be lining up with equivalent talent for him.


They won't get anywhere near equivalent talent for him, but they will sure get something.

There's no chance of him walking for nothing, so I'm not sure why it's still being brought up.


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

Toronto is not going to get anything of value for Bosh except the huge trade exception. If they did it with Chicago, I could see a guy like Johnson or Gibson going to their team. The Bulls could swing the fence and give them Hinrich/Johnson/a sign-and-trade of someone for one year for Bosh. The latter would allow the Bulls to make a run at another star player. Other than that, I can't imagine why Chicago would be willing to give up too much for an URF who wants to leave the team.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

PD said:


> Toronto is not going to get anything of value for Bosh except the huge trade exception. If they did it with Chicago, I could see a guy like Johnson or Gibson going to their team. The Bulls could swing the fence and give them Hinrich/Johnson/a sign-and-trade of someone for one year for Bosh. The latter would allow the Bulls to make a run at another star player. Other than that, I can't imagine why Chicago would be willing to give up too much for an URF who wants to leave the team.


One year of Bosh? If its a sign and trade he'll be signed to a long term max contract.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

raptors would look elsewhere if the bulls refuse to give up even Noah for bosh. a Noah+gibson trade or Noah+JJ for bosh could be acceptable, but bulls definitely need to include noah.


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

c_dog said:


> raptors would look elsewhere if the bulls refuse to give up even Noah for bosh. a Noah+gibson trade or Noah+JJ for bosh could be acceptable, but bulls definitely need to include noah.


Or we could just sign him out right, and give you nothing.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

PD said:


> Or we could just sign him out right, and give you nothing.


No. You couldn't.


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

R-Star said:


> No. You couldn't.


Why not? Bosh is UFA, and Bulls have $$$.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

PD said:


> Why not? Bosh is UFA, and Bulls have $$$.


He gets more money out of signing a max sign and trade with Toronto, which is what he will do.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

I love how all you internet know-it-alls talk in such absolutes. Pretty stupid.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Here we go again with these Bulls fans who elevate a guy who is not even the top player in position to godlike status. 

Noah is a very good player but Bosh is the SUPERIOR player and if we could get Bosh for Noah I would do it in a heartbeat. 

The media in this city makes me laugh, filling dumb Bulls fans with these ideas that hustle, energy and heart and soul equate to wins. Noah may carry the emotional flag of this team but lets not dumb it down, Rose is the franchise, his development, performance and ability is what will take us to the next level, not a guy yelling and jumping up and down after a dunk to cap his 13 point game.

Noah is a big part of this team but if we can get Bosh its well worth it.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> I love how all you internet know-it-alls talk in such absolutes. Pretty stupid.


Yet the people talking in absolutes that favor your naive point of view are awesome right?

Bosh will leave via sign and trade.

There's plenty of teams that could offer him just as much money as the Bulls this offseason. So the whole "We'll just sign him" is laughable. Why would he choose to come to the Bulls over the other teams? If Wade or Lebron go somewhere, why wouldn't he follow them? "No thanks Bron, I'm going to sign with the Bulls!" Nope. Not going to happen.

As I've explained, he gets more money if he signs with the Raptors. Before doing so he'll let them know what teams he's interested in going to, and they'll field offers and take the best one. *THAT* is how he will be moved.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Noah is a very good player but Bosh is the SUPERIOR player and if we could get Bosh for Noah I would do it in a heartbeat.


The question is not if Noah for Bosh is worth the price. He is.

The question is whether it's NECESSARY to give up Noah for Bosh.

Two very different questions. And I have two very different answers.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

R-Star said:


> Yet the people talking in absolutes that favor your naive point of view are awesome right?
> 
> Bosh will leave via sign and trade.
> 
> ...


No, I think that ANYONE that talks in absolutes like you always do is a complete *******, whether their views coincide with mine or not. People trying to act like know it alls, or Nostradamus, are ignorant morons. 

There's always room for a possibility to be otherwise than what you talk about in absolutes so much. MAYBE, just MAYBE, he'll want to WIN, and he'll be ok with a 100 million contract instead of 110 million, if he can go to the right city for endorsements and WIN championships. This has NOTHING to do with what I want to happen, or what I think will happen. It has to do with nothing ever being an absolute guarantee to happen.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> No, I think that ANYONE that talks in absolutes like you always do is a complete *******, whether their views coincide with mine or not. People trying to act like know it alls, or Nostradamus, are ignorant morons.
> 
> There's always room for a possibility to be otherwise than what you talk about in absolutes so much. MAYBE, just MAYBE, he'll want to WIN, and he'll be ok with a 100 million contract instead of 110 million, if he can go to the right city for endorsements and WIN championships. This has NOTHING to do with what I want to happen, or what I think will happen. It has to do with nothing ever being an absolute guarantee to happen.


If he wants to win, why would he be so dead set on picking the Bulls out of every team that can sign him?

It _could_ happen, obviously. I'm very confident that it won't but you're right, it _could._ But the guys saying "Why trade anything? We'll just sign him since hes a FA are the ones I've been addressing. Some guys here seem to think it's that simple. It's not. Who's to say he signs with the Bulls? They can't offer him any more money than the other teams, so why so sure he'll accept?

I don't disagree with what you're saying, I just don't see it happening.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

yodurk said:


> The question is not if Noah for Bosh is worth the price. He is.
> 
> The question is whether it's NECESSARY to give up Noah for Bosh.
> 
> Two very different questions. And I have two very different answers.


It might be necessary, I dont see Bosh to Chicago as a free agent as a lock.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Thonus argues for trading Noah for Bosh. Future salary is the reason why. 

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ 

Bulls beat 137


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> It might be necessary, I dont see Bosh to Chicago as a free agent as a lock.


I don't either, but as I stated earlier in this thread, I believe there are enough fall back options that wouldn't require sign-and-trading Joakim Noah to another team.

e.g., I'd rather have Boozer & Noah in a Bulls uniform together than Bosh & some crappy center.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

yodurk said:


> I don't either, but as I stated earlier in this thread, I believe there are enough fall back options that wouldn't require sign-and-trading Joakim Noah to another team.
> 
> e.g., I'd rather have Boozer & Noah in a Bulls uniform together than Bosh & some crappy center.


I would too. Thonus did mention trading Deng. Mentioned some teams where Luol would fit into, but also state it's unlikely we can move him. 

I want Noah AND Bosh. 

We shall see.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> No, I think that ANYONE that talks in absolutes like you always do is a complete *******, whether their views coincide with mine or not. People trying to act like know it alls, or Nostradamus, are ignorant morons.
> 
> There's always room for a possibility to be otherwise than what you talk about in absolutes so much. MAYBE, just MAYBE, he'll want to WIN, and he'll be ok with a 100 million contract instead of 110 million, if he can go to the right city for endorsements and WIN championships. This has NOTHING to do with what I want to happen, or what I think will happen. It has to do with nothing ever being an absolute guarantee to happen.


lol.....I like your argument.

I hear a rumor that Bosh is going to sign a contract in China to join Bonzi Wells and Marbury. I hear another rumor about him wanting to chop off his winnie and join the WNBA. These are all *possibilities* and I got a whole bag of these if you're interested. Nobody is being "absolute" here, I'm just being rational about what is likely to happen.

As for the salary difference, check this out

http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/the-money-chris-boshs-extension/

It's not 10 million, it's 32 million. He would be crazy if he pass up that kind of money to play with a contender like the Lakers or Cavs, let alone giving up 32 mil so that he can compete for a 2nd round exit in Chicago. The endorsement lure is shaky. Bosh while is popular in Canada wouldn't become much more popular just because he's playing in Chicago. He just doesn't have that much appeal to get more offcourt money than the likes of Boozer/Gasol/Amare. In fact, I think he will probably make more money off endorsements if he stays in Canada since he is the only basketball figure north of the border.

If the Noah/Bosh trade is on the table the Bulls would regret it if they don't take it. While Noah is a good player he is much more replaceable than a 23/10 guy like Bosh. Unless the Bulls are certain that they can get Amare or Boozer, they shouldn't risk letting another scoring big man go to another team.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> lol.....I like your argument.
> 
> I hear a rumor that Bosh is going to sign a contract in China to join Bonzi Wells and Marbury. I hear another rumor about him wanting to chop off his winnie and join the WNBA. These are all *possibilities* and I got a whole bag of these if you're interested. Nobody is being "absolute" here, I'm just being rational about what is likely to happen.
> 
> ...


It's a 32 mil difference because he can sign for an extra year. 27.5 mil of that difference is because of that extra year. so it's only a 4.5 mil difference over 5 years. I don't think there is any reason A 31 year old Bosh couldn't get another max deal after that. Assuming the true difference in value of contracts is 32 mil is just as crazy as saying 10 mil. Unless you are predicting a tragic career ending injury for Bosh.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

I highly doubt the Bulls give up Noah. Because there are so many other guys we could potentially sign. Boozer for example. If you throw a max contract at that guy I can all but guarunteee he accepts it. And as much as I like Bosh... Boozer and Noah is better than just Bosh.

I say _if_ it's a sign and trade the Raptors will get something like Gibson and 2 1st rounders from the Bulls. Bulls just have to much leverage. Maybe the Raptors get Deng. Anything else is a pipe dream for the raptors.... IMO.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> It's a 32 mil difference because he can sign for an extra year. 27.5 mil of that difference is because of that extra year. so it's only a 4.5 mil difference over 5 years. I don't think there is any reason A 31 year old Bosh couldn't get another max deal after that. Assuming the true difference in value of contracts is 32 mil is just as crazy as saying 10 mil. Unless you are predicting a tragic career ending injury for Bosh.


Tell Jermaine O'neal and Tracy Mcgrady that and see how they feel about your reasoning. You're talking about one awkward fall that could cost you 20 million, how can you not take that into consideration. We've had plenty of stars that go into steep decline after their 30s and theres a fair chance for that to happen to Bosh. Do you know that Elton Brand thanks the lord every night for suckering the Sixers into that contract? Things happen in sports and you don't make career plans 5-6 years down the road.

In fact, I would be surprised if Bosh gets another max deal after this one. Only a handful of big men in the last decade have gotten max deals after they turn 31 and I don't see Bosh being in their category. When you're comparing money in the bank versus money that needs to be earned 5 years down the road, guaranteed money has a lot of value.

Again, I want to reiterate that I do feel that it's reasonable if Bosh signs outright with a team that is already a contender. However I don't see why he would take a paycut so that he can play for a team that has ways to go to being the elite. Guys usually take paycuts if they know that theres a good chance to win a ring. Not to say that the Bulls wouldn't be good with Bosh but the chances aren't good enough for someone to give up 32 million of guaranteed money. That's my opinion.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I haven't even mention the new CBA and the uncertainty that it brings. Who knows what the cap will be by the time that Bosh turns 31?


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> Tell Jermaine O'neal and Tracy Mcgrady that and see how they feel about your reasoning. You're talking about one awkward fall that could cost you 20 million, how can you not take that into consideration. We've had plenty of stars that go into steep decline after their 30s and theres a fair chance for that to happen to Bosh. Do you know that Elton Brand thanks the lord every night for suckering the Sixers into that contract? Things happen in sports and you don't make career plans 5-6 years down the road.
> 
> In fact, I would be surprised if Bosh gets another max deal after this one. Only a handful of big men in the last decade have gotten max deals after they turn 31 and I don't see Bosh being in their category. When you're comparing money in the bank versus money that needs to be earned 5 years down the road, guaranteed money has a lot of value.
> 
> Again, I want to reiterate that I do feel that it's reasonable if Bosh signs outright with a team that is already a contender. However I don't see why he would take a paycut so that he can play for a team that has ways to go to being the elite. Guys usually take paycuts if they know that theres a good chance to win a ring. Not to say that the Bulls wouldn't be good with Bosh but the chances aren't good enough for someone to give up 32 million of guaranteed money. That's my opinion.


Yeah he could get severley injured. That is a possibility. But he is not giving up 32 million. He is giving up 4.5 million over 5 years and then not extending it for one more year at 27.5 million. Odds are he stays at a similar level of production for the next 5 years and then would still be a max player at the end of that contract. It is ridiculous to say that that would not be his expected career projection. Yeah freak injuries could happen, or he could lose his motivation or, or... But odds are that he will still be a very productive player at age 31 and that he would get paid a very lucrative contract at age 31 also. So lets be reasonable and not pretend that he is "losing" 32 mil by signing with the Bulls instead of the Raptors. 

Also i believe that a lineup Centered around this group of players:

Rose (age 21)
Deng (age 24)
Bosh (age 26)
Noah (age 25)

Plus the typical MLE type guys and role players is a contender for a long time. 

You may not agree but IMO that is a very talented and young core that will be in their primes over the length of Bosh's contract.

How many teams have that many young pieces that are locked into multi year contracts, that are already at least above average players at their respective positions?

not to mention that those players would all compliment each other extremeley well.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

If he signs without a sign&trade, by the start of next season he would have less than 32 mil of guaranteed money, that's how I look at it. To say that the difference is only 4.5 mil over 5 years is ignoring all the risks that comes with it and I don't think any player would think that way. It's not rare for a player to decline past 30 and it's a valid risk to consider when theres this much money at stake.

Rose/Deng/Bosh/Noah while is a good lineup isn't exactly at the level of the Lakers/Magic/Cleveland right now. Like I said they have a chance to be good but it just doesn't seem reasonable to give up 32 mil of guaranteed money in order to be part of this. In fact, if Bosh wanted to do that, he would just go to Miami to play with Wade and Beasley. If Bosh is willing to take less money, there are a lot more opportunities that are available to him and the Bulls wouldn't be at the top of that line either.

Again, I am not saying that Bosh wouldn't end up in Chicago. I am only saying that the chances of him not going through a sign&trade is highly unlikely. Because of his willingness to get a sign&trade, the Raptors have some leverage when they have trade conversations with teams that Bosh wants to go. It's not the "If you don't get this done I'll just go there anyway" situation that some of you are suggesting.

Of course, theres also a chance that Bosh loves Chicago deeply and wants to play there no matter the cost. Like that guy said earlier, nothing is absolute and anything is possible. I am just trying to give my opinion about what seems to be the most rational thing for Bosh to do this summer.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> If he signs without a sign&trade, by the start of next season he would have less than 32 mil of guaranteed money, that's how I look at it. To say that the difference is only 4.5 mil over 5 years is ignoring all the risks that comes with it and I don't think any player would think that way. It's not rare for a player to decline past 30 and it's a valid risk to consider when theres this much money at stake.
> 
> Rose/Deng/Bosh/Noah while is a good lineup isn't exactly at the level of the Lakers/Magic/Cleveland right now. Like I said they have a chance to be good but it just doesn't seem reasonable to give up 32 mil of guaranteed money in order to be part of this. In fact, if Bosh wanted to do that, he would just go to Miami to play with Wade and Beasley. If Bosh is willing to take less money, there are a lot more opportunities that are available to him and the Bulls wouldn't be at the top of that line either.
> 
> ...


honestly I think your opinion is reasonable, I just don't agree with some of it. It's hard to sound objective as a Bulls Fan.

But I honestly don't think there are any other teams out there that are even close to comparable talent wise when age and fit is factored in. You brought up Miami:



> In fact, if Bosh wanted to do that, he would just go to Miami to play with Wade and Beasley.


Wade is 28 and has a lot more wear and tear on him than his age suggests. No question he is great but how many of the next 5 years will he be better than Rose? Maybe you think all 5, and I wouldn't tell you that opinion is ridiculous, but I believe Rose over the next 5 years could very well be more productive than Wade over that stretch.

Beasley Is a terrible fit alongside Bosh and Wade. Why would Bosh and Wade need another pure scorer?? Especcially one that doesn't play a lick of D and isn't a particularly good rebounder. After that the team is empty.

The way I see it Beasley isn't on the same level with any of the three players the Bulls would have left over and Rose is a younger (and probably lite) version of Wade.

Rose= best young pg in the NBA, very good scorer (weak D) 
Deng= very good all-around SF that plays off the ball on offense, plays great D, and a great rebounder (durability concerns)
Noah= Very versatile center who plays great D, is an elite Rebounder, good passer, great motor. (subpar jumpshot and post game)

Plug in Bosh and you have 4 of your 5 positions perfectly accounted for.

I'm leaving Hinrich off because he isn't a part of the core guys I am trying to sell you on, but in a lineup like that, he would fit very well also. He's undersized for the 2 but we would already have plenty of scoring and would just need someone to play D and knock down the open jumpshot. 2 things he does a pretty good job of.

That is a complete starting 5. Not to mention we have a very good role player in Taj Gibson, And JJ has potential as well. Plus we will have a mid first round pick to join the bunch, and about 5 mil to spend on another player. Maybe a guy like anthony Morrow.

You can't tell me there is another team out there with that much to offer. Miami doesn't even come close. Once you factor in that Chicago is a big market where Bosh will get a lot of exposure (which certainly helps with endorsement deals). This is by far the most attractive destination for a FA. IMO.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> I highly doubt the Bulls give up Noah. Because there are so many other guys we could potentially sign. Boozer for example. If you throw a max contract at that guy I can all but guarunteee he accepts it. And as much as I like Bosh... Boozer and Noah is better than just Bosh.


I just dont see how the Bulls are better off with giving Boozer a Max deal at 29 just to keep Noah who will also require to be paid in a few more seasons and he will be overpaid as well. Long term Bosh is the best option and probably the most realistic because I really dont see Wade and Lebron going any where.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Giving Boozer a max contract instead of Bosh just so they can keep Noah. That's hilarious. I don't see how that could turn out badly at all.....


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I don't disagree that Bosh will seek as much money as possible, but I also can't discount the possibility that he values other things nearly as much. For instance:

- Bulls core of Bosh, Rose, Noah, Deng, Hinrich is clearly a challenger for the East title, and would quite possibly remain so for the full 5 years of Bosh's contract

- Bosh would be "the man" on an East contender; Rose would be fine with that and has proven to be unselfish with the ball

- Bosh would get more exposure to the casual NBA; and honestly I think he will early an extra couple million per year in endorsements just from being in big market Chicago. This helps off set at least some of the money he loses on the contract itself (although doesn't touch the value of that 6th season...)

The thing is, none of us can read his mind so it's impossible to know for sure where his priorities are. We just gotta wait and see come July 1st.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

R-Star said:


> Giving Boozer a max contract instead of Bosh just so they can keep Noah. That's hilarious. I don't see how that could turn out badly at all.....


I take it you don't have a high opinion of Boozer?

Agree to disagree then, I happen to think he's one of the premier low-post scorers in this league. And will continue to be, as he's not someone who relies on athleticism to get his points. (As opposed to Amare, who I think will decline far more rapidly than Boozer)


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

yodurk said:


> I don't disagree that Bosh will seek as much money as possible, but I also can't discount the possibility that he values other things nearly as much. For instance:
> 
> - Bulls core of Bosh, Rose, Noah, Deng, Hinrich is clearly a challenger for the East title, and would quite possibly remain so for the full 5 years of Bosh's contract
> 
> ...


His priorities are money. A core of Bosh, Rose, Noah, Deng and Hinrich is a perennial playoff team, but I don't see them as top of the pack contenders on a regular basis by any means. As far as endorsements go, the same could be said for going to New York, or a handful of other teams as well.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

yodurk said:


> I take it you don't have a high opinion of Boozer?
> 
> Agree to disagree then, I happen to think he's one of the premier low-post scorers in this league. And will continue to be, as he's not someone who relies on athleticism to get his points. (As opposed to Amare, who I think will decline far more rapidly than Boozer)


At Boozers age, style of play and position, offering him a max deal would be a very bad idea.

Elton Brand was an amazing low post scorer as well. Guys who have to muscle around in the paint to get their points tend to break down from the wear and tear it causes.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

R-Star said:


> His priorities are money. A core of Bosh, Rose, Noah, Deng and Hinrich is a perennial playoff team, but I don't see them as top of the pack contenders on a regular basis by any means. As far as endorsements go, the same could be said for going to New York, or a handful of other teams as well.


Understood on the money part, I'm just arguing he'll still be one of the highest paid players in the NBA should he choose Chicago.

He will also have some endorsement bonuses, IMO, to add to the pot.

Sure he could choose New York to get the money & endorsements, but why go there when he gets that AND more by going to Chicago?

I also think you're selling that potential core a bit short. While the end goal is a championship, you gotta start by reaching the top of the Eastern Conference. By comparison to the other East teams, I don't see any other team quite matching (or at least not exceeding) the Bosh-Rose-Noah-Deng-Hinrich core. 

The Cavs window won't stay open forever when they have Shaq, Big Z, Jamison all declining. 

The Celtics are already declining fast and have very few assets to stay at the top.

The Magic will stay near the top for a while yet, but Vince Carter is clearly declining and beyond that they don't have any young up and comers. Essentially that leaves 1 superstar and a few OK players.

The Hawks may lose Joe Johnson -- if they keep him, then they're right up there as well. 

But, anyone else in the East primed to make a run? I don't think so, IMO.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

R-Star said:


> At Boozers age, style of play and position, offering him a max deal would be a very bad idea.
> 
> Elton Brand was an amazing low post scorer as well. Guys who have to muscle around in the paint to get their points tend to break down from the wear and tear it causes.


Brand declined faster since he had micro-fracture surgery, if I'm not mistaken. 

I also would make the argument that Brand relied on his quickness more than Boozer does, though that's just my opinion.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> Wade is 28 and has a lot more wear and tear on him than his age suggests. No question he is great but how many of the next 5 years will he be better than Rose? Maybe you think all 5, and I wouldn't tell you that opinion is ridiculous, but I believe Rose over the next 5 years could very well be more productive than Wade over that stretch.
> 
> Beasley Is a terrible fit alongside Bosh and Wade. Why would Bosh and Wade need another pure scorer?? Especcially one that doesn't play a lick of D and isn't a particularly good rebounder. After that the team is empty.
> 
> ...


Even though Wade is 28 he is a better player than anyone on the Bulls now or 3-4 years down the road. In fact, Bosh have said in interviews that it would be a dream to play with someone like a Lebron or Wade, I have yet to see him say something like that about Luol Deng or Derrick Rose. On paper the Bulls may look like a team with a decent future but it's hard to say that Bosh would see it that way especially when the Bulls have been quite mediocre for the last few years. What is certain is that Bosh feels that Wade is one of the best players in the league and we know that the 2 of them together would be amazing as long as the 2 stays healthy. As for Beasley the only problem that I see if he plays with Bosh is on defense because Beasley can't guard 3s. On offense the 2 of them actually fit a lot better than the Bulls front line as Beasley provides the post play that Bosh lacks. Plus if the 2 of them doesn't work together Beasley's trade value is still tremendous and Miami would get some good pieces if they decide to let him go.

I don't buy into the extra endorsements simply because he's in Chicago. Someone need to find out how much more money Pau Gasol is making after he moved from Memphis to LA. I don't see him doing shoes or Gatorade commercials just because he's on TV everyday. As interesting of a person that Bosh is he doesn't seem like someone that would elevate his star status just because he plays in the US instead of Canada. Only thing I know is that right now Bosh is the face of basketball in Canada and he would be one of many when he heads south. It's one thing if you are a superstar like Lebron it's another when you're in a pack of stars like Amare/Bosh/Boozer/Gasol/Dirk. 

And the Cavs and Magic won't be falling any time soon. Their windows are open as long as Lebron and Howard are playing. If I've learned anything as a Raptor fan the past decade it's a lot easier to build a good team when you have a future HOF player on your team. The margin of error that those teams can have and still be good is much larger than a team build around much lesser players.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> Even though Wade is 28 he is a better player than anyone on the Bulls now or 3-4 years down the road. In fact, Bosh have said in interviews that it would be a dream to play with someone like a Lebron or Wade, I have yet to see him say something like that about Luol Deng or Derrick Rose. On paper the Bulls may look like a team with a decent future but it's hard to say that Bosh would see it that way especially when the Bulls have been quite mediocre for the last few years. What is certain is that Bosh feels that Wade is one of the best players in the league and we know that the 2 of them together would be amazing as long as the 2 stays healthy. As for Beasley the only problem that I see if he plays with Bosh is on defense because Beasley can't guard 3s. On offense the 2 of them actually fit a lot better than the Bulls front line as Beasley provides the post play that Bosh lacks. Plus if the 2 of them doesn't work together Beasley's trade value is still tremendous and Miami would get some good pieces if they decide to let him go.
> 
> I don't buy into the extra endorsements simply because he's in Chicago. Someone need to find out how much more money Pau Gasol is making after he moved from Memphis to LA. I don't see him doing shoes or Gatorade commercials just because he's on TV everyday. As interesting of a person that Bosh is he doesn't seem like someone that would elevate his star status just because he plays in the US instead of Canada. Only thing I know is that right now Bosh is the face of basketball in Canada and he would be one of many when he heads south. It's one thing if you are a superstar like Lebron it's another when you're in a pack of stars like Amare/Bosh/Boozer/Gasol/Dirk.
> 
> And the Cavs and Magic won't be falling any time soon. Their windows are open as long as Lebron and Howard are playing. If I've learned anything as a Raptor fan the past decade it's a lot easier to build a good team when you have a future HOF player on your team. The margin of error that those teams can have and still be good is much larger than a team build around much lesser players.


I see Rose as a future superstar. Someone who is already on the brink. Noah is a future all-star (very close to making it this year). Deng would fit perfect into the role of a third option and could easily be the best third option in the league. I think Noah could easily be the best 4th option in the league. And Rose could easily be the best 2nd option in the league. Bosh is likeley to be somewhere around the 5th-7th best 1st option in the league. That is a crazy good team. And I still don't see the need for a pure scorer 3rd option (Beaseley) to go along with Wade and Bosh.It's just not a good fit.



> Even though Wade is 28 he is a better player than anyone on the Bulls now or 3-4 years down the road.


Doesn't this contradict your earlier arguement a bit though. Before you were talking about how Bosh will fall off at 31. But you don't think Rose at age 24-26 could be better than Wade at age 31-33? 



> it's a lot easier to build a good team when you have a future HOF player on your team.


I don't thinks its unrealistic to say Rose can be a future HOF player. #1 overall pick, ROY, All-star in his second year at age 21, already the top scoring pg in the league. I would say that fits the bill of a future hall of famer. I'm not saying it's a sure thing but the resume speaks for itself...



> And the Cavs and Magic won't be falling any time soon. Their windows are open as long as Lebron and Howard are playing.


Those teams are certainly good, but they both have a lot of problems, and when you look at the Magic and their contract situation that team screams small window. They are paying a ridiculous amount of money for Lewis and Carter, both of whom aren't getting any better, this is their time, they aren't getting any better going forward. The cavs are going to struggle to keep taking on players that noone else wants because of contracts. I can't see that working out long term. Fact is we don't know what these teams will look like 3 or 4 years from now. We can be pretty sure what the Bulls will like in 3 years. A few really good core pieces who will be in their prime all at the same time. That doesn't happen to often. In fact this team could realistically stay together for 10 years and still be an elite team if you throw Bosh into it. So I don't know if I am just a homer but it looks real attractive on paper. much more so than New Jersey, New York, Clippers, Miami, etc...


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> I just dont see how the Bulls are better off with giving Boozer a Max deal at 29 just to keep Noah who will also require to be paid in a few more seasons and he will be overpaid as well. Long term Bosh is the best option and probably the most realistic because I really dont see Wade and Lebron going any where.


guys like Noah are not common players in the NBA. He might have a lot of similarities with a guy like Varejao or something but they are not in the same league. There aren't a lot of guys in the NBA that go for 18, 19, and 7 like Noah did last night. Noah isn't a 1st or true second option. But having a center that is young and can play an elite level team game is extremeley valuable. You need guys like that. I think Noah is in the same mold but a bit better than Rodman. I don't think anyone would move a player like that just to get a marginally superior FA.

Boozer produces like a max contract player. For other reasons he might not be truly worthy of it, but I think you can overpay for players like that and still be a contender. Is Rashard Lewis worth 19 mil this year or Vince Carter worth 16.3 mil this year? Nope. Is that team a contender? Yep.

It's not Ideal to give Boozer a Max but would I do it to keep Noah? Yes. 

Boozer is a guy who is averaging 20 and 11 on 56% shooting. And is a good passer. The guy is no slouch. He is only 2 years older than Bosh. 

I think if we had to offer Toronto a sign and trade. We could pull it off with a few first round picks and Taj Gibson. Anything more than that is overpayment, when you consider all our options on the FA market.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> guys like Noah are not common players in the NBA. He might have a lot of similarities with a guy like Varejao or something but they are not in the same league. There aren't a lot of guys in the NBA that go for 18, 19, and 7 like Noah did last night. Noah isn't a 1st or true second option. But having a center that is young and can play an elite level team game is extremeley valuable. You need guys like that. I think Noah is in the same mold but a bit better than Rodman. I don't think anyone would move a player like that just to get a marginally superior FA.


Noah is not rare IMO, his game against Toronto IMO had more to do with the lack of Bosh and the opposing 5 being a 3 point shooter who doesnt care to bang in the post. Not saying what Noah does is not valuable but its also not this rare skill set that cant be found via draft or free agency, the truth is you have a WAYYYYYYY better chance finding the next Joakim Noah than you do finding the next Chris Bosh. 

Hes averaging 10 and 10, its not like hes averaging 20 and 12 and dominating, hes a guy who does a lot of things well but he also allows opposing bigs have big games as well. 



> Boozer produces like a max contract player. For other reasons he might not be truly worthy of it, but I think you can overpay for players like that and still be a contender. Is Rashard Lewis worth 19 mil this year or Vince Carter worth 16.3 mil this year? Nope. Is that team a contender? Yep.


Boozer's talent is not questioned by me, when healthy I do think hes a damn good player but hes got 3 season where he played under 51 games. The guy is just as capable to give you half of a season as he is to give you a 20 10 season. 



> It's not Ideal to give Boozer a Max but would I do it to keep Noah? Yes.


Bad 



> Boozer is a guy who is averaging 20 and 11 on 56% shooting. And is a good passer. The guy is no slouch. He is only 2 years older than Bosh.


Also more injury prone and who knows if he will continue to play like hes trying to get a max contract once he gets that max contract.



> I think if we had to offer Toronto a sign and trade. We could pull it off with a few first round picks and Taj Gibson. Anything more than that is overpayment, when you consider all our options on the FA market.


Toronto would NEVER trade Chris Bosh for Taj and a few first rounders, heck I think a Noah for Bosh deal would be laughable if I was a Raptors fan but at least that is a better starting point than Taj.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Noah is not rare IMO, his game against Toronto IMO had more to do with the lack of Bosh and the opposing 5 being a 3 point shooter who doesnt care to bang in the post. Not saying what Noah does is not valuable but its also not this rare skill set that cant be found via draft or free agency, the truth is you have a WAYYYYYYY better chance finding the next Joakim Noah than you do finding the next Chris Bosh.


 Noah's game is rare. No question about it. He's not a scorer, thats all. His defense, Rebounding and passing are all at a very high level. You can't just have a team full of scorers. The best player on the team isn't always the best scorer...


> Hes averaging 10 and 10, its not like hes averaging 20 and 12 and dominating, hes a guy who does a lot of things well but he also allows opposing bigs have big games as well.


First of all he is averaging 10.6 and 10.9. It sounds biased when you round that down to 10 and 10. Second of all his per game averages dropped significantly when he came back from his foot injury and played an average of 11 minutes per game over 8 games. So his averages right now are not a true representaion of his pure game value. His weakness is only scoring. I would say he is way above average at everything else. There is a reason he got serious consideration for the allstar game.





> Toronto would NEVER trade Chris Bosh for Taj and a few first rounders, heck I think a Noah for Bosh deal would be laughable if I was a Raptors fan but at least that is a better starting point than Taj


I think your seriously mistaking the leverage Toronto has. First of all this might be moot because Bosh might just sign with another team and skip the sign and trade deals. Second it seems blatantly obvious Bosh wants to leave. So how are they going to get great value for him?


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## bullsger (Jan 14, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Noah is not rare IMO [...] Not saying what Noah does is not valuable but its also not this rare skill set that cant be found via draft or free agency, the truth is you have a WAYYYYYYY better chance finding the next Joakim Noah than you do finding the next Chris Bosh.


Better chance to find a player with the skills from Noah. But difficult to find someone with this skill, Noah's energy and his will to win.

Noah's will to win IMO is "WAYYYYYYY better" then Bosh's.



thebizkit69u said:


> Hes averaging 10 and 10, its not like hes averaging 20 and 12 and dominating, hes a guy who does a lot of things well but he also allows opposing bigs have big games as well.


This season 11.6 pts and 12.3 reb, if you don't count the games when he was injured and playing the injury-limited minutes.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

caseyrh said:


> Noah's game is rare. No question about it. He's not a scorer, thats all. His defense, Rebounding and passing are all at a very high level.


I have said this before at the risk of being ridiculed, but I really believe it's true.

Joakim Noah is basically Tim Duncan, but minus the sweet scoring touch. Clearly it's a huge flaw in Noah's game, and my point is not to say Noah is Tim Duncan by any stretch. My point is, however, that Noah is just that good is all other facets of the game. 

And that my friends is hard to find. How many centers can swipe a pass, handle the ball coast to coast against a wing player, and slam it down on the other end? How many centers can rebound, lead the break, and toss an alley-oop lob to your PG? Answer: Very few.

While some might say Duncan is the superior defender (I don't disagree), I believe Noah would be a more effective defensive player if he had the luxury of playing PF at all times. Unfortunately good centers are hard to find, so Noah is stuck at the 5 until further notice.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> I see Rose as a future superstar. Someone who is already on the brink. Noah is a future all-star (very close to making it this year). Deng would fit perfect into the role of a third option and could easily be the best third option in the league. I think Noah could easily be the best 4th option in the league. And Rose could easily be the best 2nd option in the league. Bosh is likeley to be somewhere around the 5th-7th best 1st option in the league. That is a crazy good team. And I still don't see the need for a pure scorer 3rd option (Beaseley) to go along with Wade and Bosh.It's just not a good fit.
> 
> I don't thinks its unrealistic to say Rose can be a future HOF player. #1 overall pick, ROY, All-star in his second year at age 21, already the top scoring pg in the league. I would say that fits the bill of a future hall of famer. I'm not saying it's a sure thing but the resume speaks for itself...


That's definitely an opinion of a Bulls fan and we're all entitled to be homers. However the fact is Wade right now is one of the best players in the league and Rose isn't. Nobody knows what the future holds for Rose/Noah/Deng and all those players however we know that Wade can win a championship as long as you give him some help. Facts vs. Unknown, I'm going with facts on this one.




> Doesn't this contradict your earlier arguement a bit though. Before you were talking about how Bosh will fall off at 31. But you don't think Rose at age 24-26 could be better than Wade at age 31-33?


Don't know how the math works in this one. Wade is 28, so 3-4 years would be until Wade is 32. I understand the risk of Wade declining after he is 30 but he still have at least 2-3 very good season left in him.

Also what I've said about Bosh really doesn't apply here. I said that there is a risk that Bosh may fall off after he reaches 30 therefore he should secure as much money now when he has the chance. I never said anything about the majority of guys declining after they reach 30, I only said that the risk is there and the risk is big enough for him to secure the money now.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> Don't know how the math works in this one. Wade is 28, so 3-4 years would be until Wade is 32. I understand the risk of Wade declining after he is 30 but he still have at least 2-3 very good season left in him.


The math works like this Wade is 28 now so he will be 29 next year, 30 in 2 years, *31 in 3 years, 32 in 4 years, 33 in 5 years*

I added 33 because we are talking about a 5 year contract. so in the last year of a 5 year bosh deal Wade will be 33 and Rose will be 26.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Sorry to say I'd rather keep Noah and Boozer is better than Bosh.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Boozer is not better than Bosh. No.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I guess I feel like Bosh is better than Boozer... but Boozer + Noah might be better than Bosh and whatever we'd be able to find at the 5...


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Giving Boozer a max contract instead of Bosh just so they can keep Noah. That's hilarious. I don't see how that could turn out badly at all.....



What, Bosh is some perennial winner?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

I think Bosh is better than Boozer. Boozer scares me, but he plays closer to the basket than Bosh, which I think would be good for spacing/ball movement. Would I take Boozer + Noah instead of Bosh + minimum signed scrub? You betcha. I would acknowledge the chance of Boozer taking it easy after he gets paid, however.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Since when has Boozer took it easy after getting paid. Did he take it easy in Utah? I think Boozer milks injuries sometimes, but this guy is not a paycheck player. I mean his numbers are pretty close to 20/10. Who says Boozer will cost the max? Bosh wants 17 million per. Sorry an all-star PF that can't get out of the first round in the East doesn't deserve max salary IMO.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> Noah's game is rare. No question about it. He's not a scorer, thats all. His defense, Rebounding and passing are all at a very high level. You can't just have a team full of scorers. *The best player on the team isn't always the best scorer...*


I would not say his passing and defense are at the very high level, hes a good passer and a good defender but hes not someone that you can say those those things at a VERY high level. Hes got a big problem defensively when playing against bigger 5's, they eat him up. Hes a good post passer but not a very good passer when doubled or when further away from the basket so I cant say that hes doing it at a very high level, but his rebounding I agree is elite. 

The best player on the Bulls is the best scorer, Derrick Rose is by far more important to the Bulls than Joakim Noah. 



> First of all he is averaging 10.6 and 10.9. It sounds biased when you round that down to 10 and 10. Second of all his per game averages dropped significantly when he came back from his foot injury and played an average of 11 minutes per game over 8 games. So his averages right now are not a true representaion of his pure game value. His weakness is only scoring. I would say he is way above average at everything else. There is a reason he got serious consideration for the allstar game.


Stats are stats, sure he might have better numbers if he stayed healthy but he did not. His weakness is not just only scoring, but also post defense on bigger players, he can be pushed and bullied inside easily.





> I think your seriously mistaking the leverage Toronto has. First of all this might be moot because Bosh might just sign with another team and skip the sign and trade deals. Second it seems blatantly obvious Bosh wants to leave. So how are they going to get great value for him?


Toronto may end up settling for less when its all said and done but right now they will try to get the best deal possible for Bosh if they can. I just think they will aim higher than Joakim Noah.



> Noah's will to win IMO is "WAYYYYYYY better" then Bosh's.


Yet will all that Will and Energy he is still a way inferior basketball player than Bosh. Energy and hustle cant be measured, its not a stat and there is 0 evidence that proves it has an impact on wins and losses.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Sorry an all-star PF that can't get out of the first round in the East doesn't deserve max salary IMO.


Jordan did not make it out of the first round in his first 3 years, would you not give him a Max deal lol. 

Whether you think he deserves it or not HE WILL GET a max contract.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Jordan did not make it out of the first round in his first 3 years, would you not give him a Max deal lol.
> 
> Whether you think he deserves it or not HE WILL GET a max contract.


I agree that Bosh will get a max deal (though I object to the MJ comparison... Bosh has been in the league for 7 years)


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Dornado said:


> I agree that Bosh will get a max deal (though I object to the MJ comparison... Bosh has been in the league for 7 years)


The point is Chris Bosh has performed like a top ten player, he cant be held solely accountable for his teams lack of playoff success. Bosh produced in the playoff's what else was he supposed to do when Anthony Parker was the second leading scorer on those playoff teams.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

All I know is Bosh is so great yet they are just fighting to get into the playoffs with the injury riddled Bulls. That says as much about him as it does the Bulls. Without those injuries to Rose and Noah, the Bulls might be the 5th seed. Bosh is basically Abdur-Rahim redux.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

HKF said:


> All I know is Bosh is so great yet they are just fighting to get into the playoffs with the injury riddled Bulls. That says as much about him as it does the Bulls. Without those injuries to Rose and Noah, the Bulls might be the 5th seed. Bosh is basically Abdur-Rahim redux.


Bosh is a very good player. He is also surrounded by sub-par talent. And the players that are talented on that roster don't compliment his game well at all (they are all terrible defenders who are pureley offensive). The Bulls would compliment his game well. 1 player can't do it by himself. Look at the top 4 teams in the east. Those teams are all more talented and have good roleplayer surrounding their stars.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

R-Star said:


> If he wants to win, why would he be so dead set on picking the Bulls out of every team that can sign him?
> 
> It _could_ happen, obviously. I'm very confident that it won't but you're right, it _could._ But the guys saying "Why trade anything? We'll just sign him since hes a FA are the ones I've been addressing. Some guys here seem to think it's that simple. It's not. Who's to say he signs with the Bulls? They can't offer him any more money than the other teams, so why so sure he'll accept?
> 
> I don't disagree with what you're saying, I just don't see it happening.


I'm not saying he would be dead set on going to Chicago. I'm just saying that if I'm Bosh, making 100 mill over 5 years, or 130 over 6, I may take the 100 over 5 (just pulling #s out of thin air there), if I could go to a team where they have more talent and are in a big market. Big market and championships make you a bigger star, and endorsements will make up some of the difference, you hit FA sooner, and winning would make it all a lot more enjoyable. 

My main thing is, if he wants to win, he'll want to go to a team that didn't have to give up a key player in order to obtain him. If he's greedy, he'll do the S&T. A large part of the reason for a S&T in the past was the acquiring team couldn't absorb the whole contract, so it was a necessity. Not so in this instance. It all comes down to what Bosh wants. To win, or to have more money contractually. I see both sides of the argument here, and it could go either way as far as I'm concerned, for the reasons I mentioned.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

R-Star said:


> Giving Boozer a max contract instead of Bosh just so they can keep Noah. That's hilarious. I don't see how that could turn out badly at all.....


I hear you there lol. I'd hate to have Boozer on the team period on a max contract. Not a fan at all.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Boozer signing wouldn't necessarily have to be a max deal. 

I could be wrong...maybe sign a Ben Wallace type of deal which isn't nearly as bad (e.g., 4 years, $60M; or 5 year, $75-80M).

Not sure I see many teams going too far beyond that offer, just too risky with entering the new CBA where bad contracts will be harder to move. (In the sense where Boozer has potential to be a bad contract, which I can't deny there is risk here)

When you say "max deal", the true max for Boozer would be well over $100M, right?


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## TheDarkPrince (May 13, 2006)

Boozer isn't a bad player, but I also wouldn't call him great. He's a solid 20-10 guy, and his a hard work who Sloan loves. My only knock is he's a tad bit short, and gets hurt too much. We already have 1 injury prone forward on this team, and imo we don't need another one.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

HKF said:


> All I know is Bosh is so great yet they are just fighting to get into the playoffs with the injury riddled Bulls. That says as much about him as it does the Bulls. Without those injuries to Rose and Noah, the Bulls might be the 5th seed. Bosh is basically Abdur-Rahim redux.


Thats a stretch. Bosh has far more in common with Amare Stoudamire, than he does with Abdur Rahim. Though he isn't as ferocious in attacking the basket. Either way, his team sucks. Power Forwards rarely initiate the offense, and most of the time, rely on others to get shot opportunities for them. The past couple of seasons, the raps have had nobody that excels in that role. That is why the Hedo signing was SUPPOSED to be such a big deal last summer (even if I thought they paid a bit much for his services), because of his ability to run the offense from the forward spot.

He's not charles barkley. No Power Forward currently in the NBA is. That is why he needs a great PG to feed him in the spots that will maximize his gifts (and make no mistake, his gifts are plentiful). Even Karl Malone needed such a player. Amare needs such a player, Kevin McHale needed players like that. Almost all great big men do. He hasn't had it. So the Abdur-Rahim comparisons are off......and evaluations of him as a whole are premature...


Remember.....they said many of the same things about KG........and it dogged him for years.

That said, all things being equal, I'll take Bosh over Boozer. BUT:

I would not trade Noah to get Bosh, if I could keep him AND get Booz.

I think you have to pay Bosh 17 million per if that's the price. Whether I think he'll outperform his contract is another matter entirely.

I don't think you pay Booz, the same amount that you pay Bosh.

I'd take Amare (barring injuries) over either one of them, right now.


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