# Is it about time for some to finally give Skiles credit?



## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Look at our roster. We start a rookie 2nd-rounder at PG, a skinny 6'3" white kid at SG, a crazy Euro on methamphetamines at SF, a 56-year-old at PF and either a developing 22-year-old or a 6'9" non-athlete at the other post spot. Yet we win, and win often. Despite having no stars, we have several lineups that produce at a high level and consistently win games. We have competitive lineups on the floor at all times, and our defense and bench are the best in the NBA. We're about ready to hit the playoffs in stride, with key players healthy, rested up and motivated for the first time in half a decade.

Does anybody still want Paxson and/or Skiles to be fired? If so, why?


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*vega* please allow me to assist you, if i may, in this query:



*Fire Paxson:*_ 1) DaBullz, 2) futuristxen, 3) arenas809, 4) F.Jerzy, 5) FJ Of Rockaway, 6) ScottMay, 7) chifaninca, 8) Jim Ian, 9) garnett, 10) krob, 11) FanOfAll8472, 12) willieblack, 13) KingsBullsFan1, 14) such sweet thunder, 15) Bulls4Ever, 16) RetroDreams, 17) Bulls_Bulls_Bulls!, 18) The Krakken, 19) CiMa, 20) Matt Lloyd45, 21) texan, 22) Lusty RaRue, 23) comptons, 24) kukoc4ever, 25) Nobull1, 26) The 6ft Hurdle, 27) MirageRon, 28) Pejavlade_


*Fire Skiles:*_ 1) DaBullz 2) futuristxen, 3) rlucas4257, 4) arenas809, 5) F.Jerzy, 6) FJ Of Rockaway, 7) ScottMay, 8) such sweet thunder, 9) RetroDreams, 10) Jim Ian, 11) garnett, 12) krob, 13) FanOfAll8472, 14) willieblack, 15) KingsBullsFan1, 16) Bulls4Ever, 17) Bulls_Bulls_Bulls!, 18) CiMa, 19) Unlimitedgame, 20) jollyoscars, 21) comptons, 22) BealeFarange, 23) Nobull1, 24) chifaninca, 25) lorgg, 26) MirageRon, 27) Benny the Bulls, 28) rwj333_





let's hear it people. one at a time!!!!


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

It's funny, I don't see many names on either one of those lists that I recognize as posting here any more. I guess they are too busy with their crow feast...


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

yawn . 

we already did this once before, and if the search engine worked, i would just put a link here to the old thread. just as pax hasn't resigned skiles, i'm not ready to re-up skiles until i have to. this season has been blessed -- we could piss in a bottle and it would come out honey. 

i have written many times that i believe skiles quit on the team last year and essentially threw games. i still stand by that statement, and as steller as he has prepared the team this season, i am still cautious. 

the last six years have been marked by a complacency from our front office. it was not until the bulls had to win -- and empty seats became common place -- that modus operandi began to change. i believe its important to remain on the list as a message that we bulls fans demand more. as happy as i am with how this year has gone, i am not going to be pacified by 3/4 of a seaons. skiles and pax should still feel the pressure.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

FJ of Rockaway became Abe Frohman

And F.Jerzy became Machinehead

And... I have consistently given credit where credit is due


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> FJ of Rockaway became Abe Frohman
> 
> And F.Jerzy became Machinehead
> 
> And... I have consistently given credit where credit is due


Hey, I hope you weren't referring to my comment, because I am quite familiar with all of your usernames, Sybil. :biggrin:

But in the spirit of good sportsmanship, I didn't name names- hell, I didn't have to. You can look at the list and see who isn't here any more. (Well, except King Sausage)

Is King Sausage related to King Salami?


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

such sweet thunder said:


> i have written many times that i believe skiles quit on the team last year and essentially threw games. i still stand by that statement, and as steller as he has prepared the team this season, i am still cautious.
> 
> the last six years have been marked by a complacency from our front office. it was not until the bulls had to win -- and empty seats became common place -- that modus operandi began to change. i believe its important to remain on the list as a message that we bulls fans demand more. as happy as i am with how this year has gone, i am not going to be pacified by 3/4 of a seaons. skiles and pax should still feel the pressure.


Why would Skiles throw games? That sounds like delusional paranoia. 

He may have sat "more talented" players at times but how can you say that it was with the intent to lose games? Maybe the intent was to send a message to the players, something like, "Learn how to play defense, learn how to be a team player, and you'll get your lousy minutes..."

Remember, he became coach in the middle of the season. He didn't have an entire offseason and preseason to instill thses messages. It had to be done during the season and that's exactly what he did.

The 2nd paragraph quoted above ("the last six years...") has nothing to do with Skiles. Does Skiles really strike you as a guy who'll get complacent? Not me...


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I guess I could see some people hating Skiles since his coaching style rubs people the wrong way.

But why in God's green earth would anyone want to fire Paxson? He's a very likeable guy, well-respected by players and coaches around the league, an NBA Finals hero as a Chicago Bull, and most importantly it's only taken him 2 years to build a winner. What's not to like? You gotta be crazy to think Pax should be fired. When will the sense kick in with some people?


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

As a matter of fact the last time I called Pax "Huckleberry Pax" was November the 15th , 2004

The only active rant I have had on Pax was in not securing a big guard at trade deadline when it seemed likely we were going to the playoffs

And I still take the piss occasionally about the perfect symmetery between right way and the aspirational white collar working class , I am still not convinced that "the product" in the assembly of it was not about business first and basketball first 

Business first in providing a mirror for the people who can afford "your product"

What the crap ... I couldn't give a square root 

We're winning and exceeding expectations and whatever the motivations were that set up this team


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

alas, same thread over again -- i wish the search function worked .

maddox. there was a stretch last march/april, of 4 or 5 games where skiles sat hinrich. i became convinced by that action that he had "given up" and was just waiting for the season to end. benching crawford was one thing -- i never thought he was getting the most out of craw by doing it, but whatever. i suppose you could justify that he needed to set the tone. but, no good came out of benching hinrich. 0. 

we don't talk about this stretch often because few were watching the games. i think this was the low point for the franchise. the boards were solely looking ahead to the draft pick. the play was so painful that i, a bulls-o-holic , struggled to sit through an entire broadcast. i joined the list during this stretch. 

skiles is a member of the bulls franchise. although he is not responsible for the last six years, it doesn't mean he starts with a clean slate. i'm not advocating adopting the knicks "win now" business method, but i am convinced that fan complacency had a lot to do with the horrid play over the last half decade. skiles started off horribly last year, and i think its important to keep the heat on. 

the list to me is meant to act as a reminder that if the bulls revert to that level of play, skiles and paxson will not survive. i believe its important to keep the heat on and send a message that we fans demand more. all is not peachy in my book just because the bulls have fielded a competetive team for the majority of the last season


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> FJ of Rockaway became Abe Frohman
> 
> And F.Jerzy became Machinehead
> 
> And... I have consistently given credit where credit is due


Damn! I wondered where you went.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

yodurk said:


> I guess I could see some people hating Skiles since his coaching style rubs people the wrong way.
> 
> But why in God's green earth would anyone want to fire Paxson? He's a very likeable guy, well-respected by players and coaches around the league, an NBA Finals hero as a Chicago Bull, and most importantly it's only taken him 2 years to build a winner. What's not to like? You gotta be crazy to think Pax should be fired. When will the sense kick in with some people?


 yodurk,

i view the list not so much a literal "i want to fire skiles now," as much as an "i'm not ready to take the heat off just because you gave me 6 months of above average ball." the list serves as an active reminder to anyone from the franchise that everything changed in the blink of an eye. but if they get complacent and it changes back, we will turn on them.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

http://basketballboards.net/forum/search.php?searchid=44789&pp=25&page=43

SST, here's your posts from 3-25-04 through 4-04-04. If you need to find anything, there you go.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Paxson and Skiles have both been amazing. I've been a Paxson fan since day one, he has been making the right decisions. He did a wonderful job of getting ride of the cancer players while bringing in solid rotation big men like Davis and Harrington, who are thriving this season in a more defined role. Then Paxson went out and drafted Hinrich, Gordon, Deng and Duhon, who are all competitive as hell and would hate losing with a passion. He went out and got Nocioni, which is going to prove to be an even better move than it seems like now. Nocioni is going to improve his efficiency a lot in the next couple years, as he learns the language and learns to pick his spots. He'll get more comfortable. 

Skiles, well he is the one I had doubts about. Not so much because he was a bad coach, but because if the players aren't buying into the system, then even a great coach isn't going to be very effective. Skiles was a bit rough at the beginning, but that's what it took to get everyone on the same page as him. Now it seems like Skiles still has these high expectations for the team, but players feel like they can talk to him and they respect him. Skiles has come a long way in getting the team to buy into his system. Now that everybody is on the same page (with Skiles, that page is competitive and intense), things are working out. 3rd best team in the league since January 1st. 

Props to management. They are the real MVP's on a team that is known more for it's balance and it's defense than it is for any one player being a star. That's management and coaching at it's finest.


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

He's my coach of the year. What he had done with such and inexperienced team in nothing short of mind boggling.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

truebluefan said:


> Damn! I wondered where you went.


Wonder no more good fellow!

I have exposed myself on a couple of occasions ( and announced the name changes as well  heh


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

thanks bullsville:

for whatever reason i can't open the link. maybe my search problems are rooted in my browser or setup?


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

7thwatch said:


> He's my coach of the year. What he had done with such and inexperienced team in nothing short of mind boggling.


Agree

He really has not gotten the love he deserves from the mainstream

I would have Mike D'Antoni ahead of him though..... not neccessarily Nate McMillan... I think you push the Supes a bit and they are mentally fragile. Not tough enough

I think Rick Carlisle has done an amazing job in pretty tough circumstances

But yeah Coach Skiles deserves to be up there


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

I was a Skiles fan from the getgo but boy was it rough when many posters were attacking his way of doing things. I wouldn't record his postgames and his show if I wasn't a fan.

(I got to find that MSU 360 pass)


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## thunderspirit (Jun 25, 2002)

spongyfungy said:


> I was a Skiles fan from the getgo but boy was it rough when many posters were attacking his way of doing things. I wouldn't record his postgames and his show if I wasn't a fan.
> 
> (I got to find that MSU 360 pass)


stalking is still a crime, sf. 
:wink: :laugh:


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

How about giving the players some credit?


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

such sweet thunder said:


> thanks bullsville:
> 
> for whatever reason i can't open the link. maybe my search problems are rooted in my browser or setup?


Well, I'm not going through all the game threads to find out where you are complaining if that's what you're getting at... :biggrin:


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> yodurk,
> 
> i view the list not so much a literal "i want to fire skiles now," as much as an "i'm not ready to take the heat off just because you gave me 6 months of above average ball." the list serves as an active reminder to anyone from the franchise that everything changed in the blink of an eye. but if they get complacent and it changes back, we will turn on them.



six months of above average ball? That is how you characterize this season?

As a Bulls fan, I find that troubling.

Since the 0-9 start, this team has been much more than above average. The Bulls are one of the top teams in the East, and lately have been winning despite serious injuries to key players. The most important aspect of this season is that the team has been completely turned around; the resoundingly negative losing culture of the past few years has been replaced with a hardworking and unified culture of winning.

But yet, this has just been an "above average" six months.

I [sort of] understand if you are not sold on Skiles yet. But at least give him credit for what he has done this season.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> How about giving the players some credit?


Okay, so when the team is terrible we should blame the coach.

When the team is playing great basketball, we give the credit to the players?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

DaBullz said:


> How about giving the players some credit?


We can save that for the other 98% of the posts that go on around here. How about we keep this thread about the management and coaching, which has obviously been nothing short of amazing. They deserve a whole lot of credit.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Same coach last year, different players.

Look at the difference in the record.

Seems to me it's the difference in the players.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

We started last year with Bill Cartwright, not Scott Skiles.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Surprisingly, me, called a Skiles hater by many is not on either of the lists. 

But I think Bulls fans that are still here, and not the ones that refuse to eat their crows, all think Skiles should be given Coach of the Year honrors.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

such sweet thunder said:


> yodurk,
> 
> i view the list not so much a literal "i want to fire skiles now," as much as an "i'm not ready to take the heat off just because you gave me 6 months of above average ball." the list serves as an active reminder to anyone from the franchise that everything changed in the blink of an eye. but if they get complacent and it changes back, we will turn on them.


The list isn't that complicated and that is not its purpose. Its not a "hey, I still expect you to do a good job" list, because then it presumes that Skiles and Paxson are, in fact, doing a good job. Therefore, no list entitled "Fire Paxon" or "Fire Skiles" can mean what you say it means. 

That might be what you want it represent *now* because the list otherwise would seem to indicate exactly what it does indicate - impatience and a poor ability to evaluate quality coaching and management of a professional basketball team.

That being said, the list is my favorite thing about this board. I absolutely love the fact that those clubs exist.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> How about giving the players some credit?


Sure.

Credit to Curry, Chandler, Hinrich, Duhon, Gordon, Noc, Davis, Harrington and Deng most obviously. And also credit to management for adding by subtracting in the offseason and fielding a roster that wins.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> Same coach last year, different players.
> 
> Look at the difference in the record.
> 
> Seems to me it's the difference in the players.


Who acquired those "different" players? There are *two* lists in your signature, after all.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> Who acquired those "different" players? There are *two* lists in your signature, after all.



:clap:


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Skiles and Paxson have been nothing short of fabulous. 

To those in that perpetual state of denial: *Sometimes what you thought was kool-aid, wasn't kool-aid at all.*


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Mr. T said:


> *Sometimes what you thought was kool-aid, wasn't kool-aid at all.*


It was in fact a chilled Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

I'm not anxious to fire paxson anymore (or skiles for that matter)......but I'm not anxious to take my name off that list either. Ask me again in December of 07.....


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

The Krakken said:


> I'm not anxious to fire paxson anymore (or skiles for that matter)......but I'm not anxious to take my name off that list either. Ask me again in December of 07.....


Using Ben Gordon as an example since he's possibly your favorite player (gathered this from game threads) I suppose it makes just about as much sense to go with this after the game he had IN Charlotte:

I'm not anxious to trade gordon anymore......but i'm not anxious to hold on to him past this year either. Ask me again in November.

You're not "anxious" to dump the GM or Coach who have helped put us in the playoffs after six horrendous years of futility. Wow, knock yourself out with such props for two guys who have clearly got the job done. 

So just to be clear, you were going to take a break from the board because of all the angst, but you obviously decided against it.....because you missed adding to it?

Ah, Chicago fans are so appreciative.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

The Truth said:


> six months of above average ball? That is how you characterize this season?
> 
> As a Bulls fan, I find that troubling.
> 
> ...


i'd like to hope i have given credit for what skiles has done this season in many other posts. i love the european style substitutions and bringing ben off the bench is nothing short of mastery. i disagree about the injury bit, though -- no team has been as injury free as the bulls this season. 

my point is that we should expect more. this season's bliss doesn't erase the past six years. many of post-championship teams were just built like atlanta, to win the first round draft pick, not games. i bent over and took it all, convincing myself that was best for the team -- and was wrong. now, i wouldn't take my name off the list if we had the best record in the league. i suppose in this way the list is reminder to me as well as it should be to the franchise, the fans were used and it's going to take more then a season to rebuild the trust.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Mr. T said:


> Using Ben Gordon as an example since he's possibly your favorite player (gathered this from game threads) I suppose it makes just about as much sense to go with this after the game he had IN Charlotte:
> 
> I'm not anxious to trade gordon anymore......but i'm not anxious to hold on to him past this year either. Ask me again in November.


And 2 games later, he had the very antithesis of that game, in Chicago, against the same Charlotte team. Let that be representative of why I am not so high and euphoric about Pax and Skiles (or our team for that matter), to think they are now above reproach. If our players are tradable under the guise of it "making us better", than our coach, and GM are fireable under the same guise.....not that I'd recommend it, or even be on board with doing it now.....

Further, Gordon is the player I enjoy watching the most. That shouldn't be confused with "Favorite" player. I enjoyed watching Crawford the most last year. He was probably the second least favorite player of mine on this team.....



> You're not "anxious" to dump the GM or Coach who have helped put us in the playoffs after six horrendous years of futility.


No. I'm not, anxious to dump them at all. BUt I require consistency. Question for you: If the bulls return to earth next year by some miracle, and go 25-67 will it be equally the GM and Coaches fault for that failure as it is their "glory" for "getting us to the playoffs"???

I'm simply trying not to get too high or low on any aspect of this years success until I see some consistency. And I fail to see how that is:

"Adding to the angst". 

Notice what I didn't say? Not once did I actually CRITICISE them. In fact, I haven't done it to my knowledge since.......well.....I can't remember the last time.

In fact, I've gone on record ALREADY in the last 30 days several times as saying that Skiles deserves to be extended. And my name is not even on the FIRE SKILES list......which brings me to...



> Wow, knock yourself out with such props for *two* guys who have clearly got the job done.


As I've alluded to, I haven't dogged skiles since the season started. And I haven't dogged pax since draft day. I now regret dogging him then, but I'm not totally sold and won't be until we are winning CONSISTENTLY. You'll have to forgive me for that after 6 years of absolute nightmarish losing.



> So just to be clear, you were going to take a break from the board because of all the angst, but you obviously decided against it.....because you missed adding to it?


You are out of line here. I decided against it because I WAS PURSUADED TO STAY by a group of posters who wanted me to. Nothing more or less. Doesn't for one second mean that I have to "Tow the company line".......I'm not in politics and even if I was, I'm neither Democrat nor Republican. I'm Independent. I thought you would have figured that out by now....


Cheers... :cheers:


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> The list isn't that complicated and that is not its purpose. Its not a "hey, I still expect you to do a good job" list, because then it presumes that Skiles and Paxson are, in fact, doing a good job. Therefore, no list entitled "Fire Paxon" or "Fire Skiles" can mean what you say it means.
> 
> That might be what you want it represent *now* because the list otherwise would seem to indicate exactly what it does indicate - impatience and a poor ability to evaluate quality coaching and management of a professional basketball team.
> 
> That being said, the list is my favorite thing about this board. I absolutely love the fact that those clubs exist.


Ron:

i don't want to be glib, but is there a possibility that the list means different things to different people or are we all required to conform to your view?

as far as the "impatience and a poor ability to evaluate quality coaching" bit, i staunchly disagree. what got we bulls fans into this six year mess was too much patience and too much trust. while papa reinsdorf turned one of my joys into a cash-cow all i said was, "thank you sir, i have another." if i could go back, even now knowing the dramatic turn around, i would still join the club. we fans needed to express the fact that things had to change. as far as my book goes, there are no longer free passes.

ron, your registration date is dec. 2004. it's easy to criticize the posters on the list when you weren't around for bad-ole'-days. those were some really tough teams to root for and with the exception of kismet, almost everyone on these boards was trying to find some way to voice their displeasure. there was nothing flawed about joining the list -- the team needed a change. 

no one is happier then me, that pax and skiles have righted the ship. but, i am scarred. its going to take more good ball and a resigning of our young talent for me to believe that the franchise is committed to us fans.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Can anyone find a quote from Paxson or Skiles, post draft but pre-season, where they claimed we'd either have 40+ wins or even just make playoffs?

Was this really by design?


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> No. I'm not, anxious to dump them at all. BUt I require consistency. Question for you: If the bulls return to earth next year by some miracle, and go 25-67 will it be equally the GM and Coaches fault for that failure as it is their "glory" for "getting us to the playoffs"???
> 
> I'm simply trying not to get too high or low on any aspect of this years success until I see some consistency.


you share my view. . . just too early to forgive and forget.


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

*such sweet thunder*,

It makes perfect sense that the organization be held accountable for six long years at the bottom, but IMO you are laying false blame at Skiles' feet. What you're talking about has everything to do with management but not coaching or anything else. 

In honor of your logic (or our misunderstanding, or whatever the case may be... boredom) I have therefore created the official "Fire the LuvaBulls" club. PM me to join folks.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> I'm not anxious to fire paxson anymore (or skiles for that matter)......but I'm not anxious to take my name off that list either. Ask me again in December of 07.....


So in all seriousness, you think the Bulls should fire the gm and coach of a team that is 41-31, a team that had been the worst team in the league for the past 7 seasons?

I know you said you aren't anxious to see them fired, but your name on the list indicates that you think they should be fired.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> i'd like to hope i have given credit for what skiles has done this season in many other posts. i love the european style substitutions and bringing ben off the bench is nothing short of mastery. i disagree about the injury bit, though -- no team has been as injury free as the bulls this season.
> 
> my point is that we should expect more. this season's bliss doesn't erase the past six years. many of post-championship teams were just built like atlanta, to win the first round draft pick, not games. i bent over and took it all, convincing myself that was best for the team -- and was wrong. now, i wouldn't take my name off the list if we had the best record in the league. i suppose in this way the list is reminder to me as well as it should be to the franchise, the fans were used and it's going to take more then a season to rebuild the trust.


But does that mean Paxson and Skiles should be fired?


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> you share my view. . . just too early to forgive and forget.


too early to forgive Skiles for losing part of a season? despite the team's sucess this year?


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Can anyone find a quote from Paxson or Skiles, post draft but pre-season, where they claimed we'd either have 40+ wins or even just make playoffs?
> 
> Was this really by design?


So a coach can only be credited for being a success if he predicts the success?


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

The Truth said:


> So in all seriousness, you think the Bulls should fire the gm and coach of a team that is 41-31, a team that had been the worst team in the league for the past 7 seasons?
> 
> I know you said you aren't anxious to see them fired, but your name on the list indicates that you think they should be fired.


That may be what it _indicates_ but that isn't what it *means*.

I don't currently think that either of them should be fired. But I'm not giving them a free pass for the next four years either.

What it meant at the end of last season was: They should be fired.

What it means now is: I applaud your effort, but until the culture around here is one of consistent winning.....I'll be watching. Tell you what. I'll take my name off that list as soon as 20 people join my club....


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> That may be what it _indicates_ but that isn't what it *means*.
> 
> I don't currently think that either of them should be fired. But I'm not giving them a free pass for the next four years either.
> 
> ...


That's great that the list may mean something different to you. But this is what it says:



> Fire Paxson: 1) DaBullz, 2) futuristxen, 3) arenas809, 4) F.Jerzy, 5) FJ Of Rockaway, 6) ScottMay, 7) chifaninca, 8) Jim Ian, 9) garnett, 10) krob, 11) FanOfAll8472, 12) willieblack, 13) KingsBullsFan1, 14) such sweet thunder, 15) Bulls4Ever, 16) RetroDreams, 17) Bulls_Bulls_Bulls!, *18) The Krakken,* 19) CiMa, 20) Matt Lloyd45, 21) texan, 22) Lusty RaRue, 23) comptons, 24) kukoc4ever, 25) Nobull1, 26) The 6ft Hurdle, 27) MirageRon, 28) Pejavlade, 29) You!
> Fire Skiles: 1) DaBullz 2) futuristxen, 3) rlucas4257, 4) arenas809, 5) F.Jerzy, 6) FJ Of Rockaway, 7) ScottMay, 8) such sweet thunder, 9) RetroDreams, 10) Jim Ian, 11) garnett, 12) krob, 13) FanOfAll8472, 14) willieblack, 15) KingsBullsFan1, 16) Bulls4Ever, 17) Bulls_Bulls_Bulls!, 18) CiMa, 19) Unlimitedgame, 20) jollyoscars, 21) comptons, 22) BealeFarange, 23) Nobull1, 24) chifaninca, 25) lorgg, 26) MirageRon, 27) Benny the Bulls, 28) rwj333, 29) You!


Regardless of what it means to you, it _*says*_ that Paxson should be fired.


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

The Truth said:


> That's great that the list may mean something different to you. But this is what it says:
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless of what it means to you, it _*says*_ that Paxson should be fired.


I've started a new list. When 20 people join it, my participation on the other list wont matter.


----------



## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> I've started a new list. When 20 people join it, my participation on the other list wont matter.



I guess don't understand what 20 people joining your list have to do with Dabullz's list, but whatever works.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

The Krakken said:


> I've started a new list. When 20 people join it, my participation on the other list wont matter.


You aren't fooling anybody. With your suggested new list, you won't get 20 names on it. So you can still insist that you won't remove your name from Fire Paxon/Skile club.

Fair approach is to set a new list or club asking people's name for dismantling the fire Paxon/Skile club. This one, I can guarantee you will get more than 20 people in a couple of days.

If you want to do so, start with my name first. :cheers:


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

lgtwins said:


> You aren't fooling anybody. With your suggested new list, you won't get 20 names on it. So you can still insist that you won't remove your name from Fire Paxon/Skile club.
> 
> Fair approach is to set a new list or club asking people's name for dismantling the fire Paxon/Skile club. This one, I can guarantee you will get more than 20 people in a couple of days.
> 
> If you want to do so, start with my name first. :cheers:



Thats already been done. 

Okay then.....10 people.

FTR--I've already had to warn several other posters about presuming to know what "I mean", or "what I'm thinking", and then take it upon themselves to correctly inform me since I'm so misinformed about my own thoughts. Please try to keep your presumption in check from here on out.

EDIT: If you're so gung ho about it, then start that list yourself. I have my list.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

I recognize Skiles is doing a great job. 

I haven't taken my name off this list simply partly because I haven't gotten around to it. 
And partly, I've left my name on the list so that people know that I've acknowledged that I was wrong about Skiles. I've left it there for everyone else to see. I didn't just PM to take it off when it was obvious that the team was doing well. 

I used to be on Fire Pax, as well, but took my name off somewhere during the 0-9 start because I decided that Paxson had done an able job of procuring talent and it was Skiles' fault that the team hadn't done well. 

So I don't really want to Fire Skiles. I consciously left my name on there for different reasons.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> Thats already been done.
> 
> Okay then.....10 people.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to tell you that I know what you are thinking, or even what to think.

All I'm telling you is that the list says something different than what you apparently think.

And again, you have every right to be on that list, even if it means something different than what you think. But I think that list (along with the Crawford update thread) represents a lot of the negativity that is fostered in this forum, which is the reason I stopped posting here for about six months.

And I understand that you guys don't need to conform your posting habits to please my sensibilities. But perhaps the negativity keeps a number of posters away. Or maybe not.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> I recognize Skiles is doing a great job.
> 
> I haven't taken my name off this list simply partly because I haven't gotten around to it.
> And partly, I've left my name on the list so that people know that I've acknowledged that I was wrong about Skiles. I've left it there for everyone else to see. I didn't just PM to take it off when it was obvious that the team was doing well.
> ...


WAIT. "YOU AREN'T FOOLING ANYBODY". We ALL know THAT YOU REALLY WANT PAXSON FIRED NOW...and that is why you left it on there. After all, FIRING PAXSON RIGHT NOW TODAY AT 11:17pm EST is the ONLY REASON you could possibly have for leaving your name on that list..... :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse:


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Truth said:


> So a coach can only be credited for being a success if he predicts the success?


Well, there's a real disconnect.

Last season with Paxson's evaluated talent, including Rose, Marshall, and Crawford, PaxSkiles predicted playoffs.

This season with all the new players we have, and after all Paxson's genius moves (I agree that all but the Crawford trade was really fine), they were saying "wait until 2006 when we have all that cap room to apply."

Looks to me like they exceeded EVERYONE's expectations, including their own - and the players exceeded expectations the most.


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

The Truth said:


> I'm not trying to tell you that I know what you are thinking, or even what to think.
> 
> All I'm telling you is that the list says something different than what you apparently think.
> 
> ...


Believe it or not. That is the best reason ANYONE has given me for removing my name from that list. And that is reason enough. It will be removed ASAP. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: 

+reputation.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> Believe it or not. That is the best reason ANYONE has given me for removing my name from that list. And that is reason enough. It will be removed ASAP. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
> 
> +reputation.


Krakken,

That really is much appreciated. I would give you the rep right back if I had some to give you (I already gave you rep on another thread tonight). Again, thanks for the kind words.

Regards


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

The Truth said:


> Krakken,
> 
> That really is much appreciated. I would give you the rep right back if I had some to give you (I already gave you rep on another thread tonight). Again, thanks for the kind words.
> 
> Regards



No problem. I meant it. The PM has already been sent to DaBullz

Edit: So that was you, huh? I wondered how I got my second green box. :biggrin:.


----------



## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> Can anyone find a quote from Paxson or Skiles, post draft but pre-season, where they claimed we'd either have 40+ wins or even just make playoffs?
> 
> Was this really by design?


By your own logic, you won't give players the credit either since no player said 40 + wins at the beginnig of the season.

So under your strict rule, nobody is getting any credit for this unbelievable season. Not Players, not Paxon, and not Skile. Hell, it must be all illusion, this 41 + win season.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

lgtwins said:


> By your own logic, you won't give players the credit either since no player said 40 + wins at the beginnig of the season.
> 
> So under your strict rule, nobody is getting any credit for this unbelievable season. Not Players, not Paxon, and not Skile. Hell, it must be all illusion, this 41 + win season.


By my logic, the players didn't promise playoffs, and they didn't say "wait until 2006." That they've come through is a huge credit to them.


----------



## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> By my logic, the players didn't promise playoffs, and they didn't say "wait until 2006." That they've come through is a huge credit to them.


Now I don't get your logic at all.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Well, there's a real disconnect.
> 
> Last season with Paxson's evaluated talent, including Rose, Marshall, and Crawford, PaxSkiles predicted playoffs.
> 
> ...


DaBillz, was last season so scarring for you that you need to remind everyone of how it went? Seriously man, we're all Bulls fans here we all suffered through it together. Now that the team is completely turned around, we get to be reminded of how last season was? Threads like this ... and your dialogue throughout this thread... rather pointless if you ask me.

What exactly are you trying to prove? Is the pain of last year's 30 wins too great for you to enjoy this current playoff team? Curious


----------



## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

superdave said:


> DaBillz, was last season so scarring for you that you need to remind everyone of how it went? Seriously man, we're all Bulls fans here we all suffered through it together. Now that the team is completely turned around, we get to be reminded of how last season was? Threads like this ... and your dialogue throughout this thread... rather pointless if you ask me.
> 
> What exactly are you trying to prove? Is the pain of last year's 30 wins too great for you to enjoy this current playoff team? Curious


Great question to all naysayers. :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

lgtwins said:


> Now I don't get your logic at all.


It's not _that_ hard.

With negative expectations set by management, the players went out and won a bunch more games than expected.

Gordon turned out to be a heroic player.

Duhon went from nearly cut or sent to Europe to being a starter and real contributor.

Deng has solidified the SF position. Nocioni has filled in wherever needed, and well enough.

Curry's really come around, but still has a ways to go. He's a solid role player as Q1 scorer.

Chandler's played like a solid NBA player, if not spectacular offensively. And looks recovered from what many suggested was a debilitating back problem.

AD's having a career year - as good offensively as he ever has been, and good enough to start; though his minutes are reduced.

Othella's came out of nowhere to be a vital contributor. Completely unexpected. Look at the rest of the knicks we got for Crawford and the story isn't as successful.

Pike's overcome nagging (at the least) injuries to play more games and more minutes than any of us could really have imagined. He's on the verge of playing more games and minutes than any time in the past three seasons.

That's credit where credit is due.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

superdave said:


> DaBillz, was last season so scarring for you that you need to remind everyone of how it went? Seriously man, we're all Bulls fans here we all suffered through it together. Now that the team is completely turned around, we get to be reminded of how last season was? Threads like this ... and your dialogue throughout this thread... rather pointless if you ask me.
> 
> What exactly are you trying to prove? Is the pain of last year's 30 wins too great for you to enjoy this current playoff team? Curious


Actually, I'm reminding you of how this season was, at the beginning.

I am enjoying watching the players succeed, and I am rooting for them to go all the way. I even have money on them to win it all at 50:1.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

superdave said:


> DaBillz, was last season so scarring for you that you need to remind everyone of how it went? Seriously man, we're all Bulls fans here we all suffered through it together. Now that the team is completely turned around, we get to be reminded of how last season was? Threads like this ... and your dialogue throughout this thread... rather pointless if you ask me.
> 
> What exactly are you trying to prove? Is the pain of last year's 30 wins too great for you to enjoy this current playoff team? Curious



Turn it around. Does the success of this year mean we just "forgive and forget" the pain and suffering inflicted upon us over the course of the last six?

Why does it have to be all or nothing with some of you people? Its either "I'm totally right." or "You're totally wrong". 

Make no mistake: If 8 more people don't join my club, I'm going back on the list......just to protest the closed mindedness of some of the posters on this board.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> It's not _that_ hard.
> 
> With negative expectations set by management, the players went out and won a bunch more games than expected.


What negative expectations? I guess coaching had nothing to do with this either.



> Gordon turned out to be a heroic player.


Drafted by Paxson at #3 overall



> Duhon went from nearly cut or sent to Europe to being a starter and real contributor.


Drafted by Paxson in 2nd round



> Deng has solidified the SF position. Nocioni has filled in wherever needed, and well enough.


Drafted by Paxson #7, while giving up next season's potential lottery pick. FA find by none other than John Paxson, at a reasonable price



> Curry's really come around, but still has a ways to go. He's a solid role player as Q1 scorer.


Paxson encouraged Eddy to get into the best shape of his life



> Chandler's played like a solid NBA player, if not spectacular offensively. And looks recovered from what many suggested was a debilitating back problem.


Chandler has been great for us



> AD's having a career year - as good offensively as he ever has been, and good enough to start; though his minutes are reduced.


I think Paxson traded some guy named Rose for him



> Othella's came out of nowhere to be a vital contributor. Completely unexpected. Look at the rest of the knicks we got for Crawford and the story isn't as successful.
> 
> Pike's overcome nagging (at the least) injuries to play more games and more minutes than any of us could really have imagined. He's on the verge of playing more games and minutes than any time in the past three seasons.
> 
> That's credit where credit is due.


Well the trade boiled down to S&T of Jamal for Othella, Pike (from Deke), Griffin, and FW. I think Paxson did these two deals as well this summer, but my memory doesn't serve me too well.

After reading your post I've come to the conclusion that Paxson and Skiles should receive zero credit for this team's turnaround. I agree with you completely DaBullz. :angel:


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Actually, I'm reminding you of how this season was, at the beginning.
> 
> I am enjoying watching the players succeed, and I am rooting for them to go all the way. I even have money on them to win it all at 50:1.


How convenient. Bulls current team succeeds, its because of the players. Bulls' past teams fail (with Rose, Crawford, etc) time to blame management.

Got it


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> Turn it around. Does the success of this year mean we just "forgive and forget" the pain and suffering inflicted upon us over the course of the last six?
> 
> Why does it have to be all or nothing with some of you people? Its either "I'm totally right." or "You're totally wrong".
> 
> Make no mistake: If 8 more people don't join my club, I'm going back on the list......just to protest the closed mindedness of some of the posters on this board.


Closed mindedness of posters on BB.net? Never happens. :angel: 

I'm actually fine with DaBullz club, Kukoc's4E's sig, Wynn's side bets, bullsville's inflammatory songs. It makes things more entertaining around here. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle methinks


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

superdave said:


> Closed mindedness of posters on BB.net? Never happens. :angel:
> 
> I'm actually fine with DaBullz club, Kukoc's4E's sig, Wynn's side bets, bullsville's inflammatory songs. It makes things more entertaining around here. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle methinks


That's what my club is all aobut. We agree..... :biggrin:


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> Can anyone find a quote from Paxson or Skiles, post draft but pre-season, where they claimed we'd either have 40+ wins or even just make playoffs?
> 
> Was this really by design?



To me that seems more likely caused by the "guarantee" of making the playoffs before last season. Perhaps Pax said, "Wow, well, I don't think I can make guarantees anymore after that mistake." He'd be right to do so. I think you should always speak in terms of what your goals are, but blowing around a lot of hot air promising future performance is unwise and arrogant considering where this team has been in recent years. I don't think not promising the playoffs means that Pax or Skiles lacked faith in the team. 

Also, including Skiles to me seems a bit ridiculous. I doubt he would have guaranteed the playoffs this year if he had been the coach of the Spurs, for the love of God, let alone us.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

superdave said:


> How convenient. Bulls current team succeeds, its because of the players. Bulls' past teams fail (with Rose, Crawford, etc) time to blame management.
> 
> Got it


Geez, I've got a good buzz going right now (muscle relaxers, prescribed to ME, perfectly legal) but that sums it all up.

Not "I was wrong about Paxson and Skiles." 

But hey, some people don't get it. Detroit had to be down 3-1 in the playoffs before Carlisle would play Tayshaun- and that's only because Dumars told him to play him finally. He fired Carlisle right after the EC Finals, because some people just get it.

Larry Brown gets it. MJ got it probably better than any player ever.

PLAY THE RIGHT WAY. Defend. That's what wins.

And a lot of people 'BASHED' Pax and Skiles, saying their 'rah rah college crap' wouldn't win in the NBA. It's a star's league. Even while watching Detroit win the NBA Championship doing things "the right way", some people just kept telling others to "drink the Kool-Aid".

I have no point, superdave has summed it all up quite nicely. 

"Players Win, Organizations Lose"

Great work, superdave, rep points to you if I am allowed.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

The Krakken said:


> And 2 games later, he had the very antithesis of that game, in Chicago, against the same Charlotte team. Let that be representative of why I am not so high and euphoric about Pax and Skiles (or our team for that matter), to think they are now above reproach. If our players are tradable under the guise of it "making us better", than our coach, and GM are fireable under the same guise.....not that I'd recommend it, or even be on board with doing it now.....
> 
> Further, Gordon is the player I enjoy watching the most. That shouldn't be confused with "Favorite" player. I enjoyed watching Crawford the most last year. He was probably the second least favorite player of mine on this team.....
> 
> ...


But I suspect you wouldn't say you might trade Gordon this summer and we ought to check back with you around then. So why would the jury be out on firing Paxson or Skiles? They've done a good job. Lets face it, the day usually comes for players, coaches and gm's alike. Players rarely stay with the same team and coaches and gm's typically get fired before they retire or quit. When they warrant being fired, thats when it makes sense to discuss it.

My point is, I don't really care about the past. Paxson and Skiles weren't really a part of it. Besides Chandler and Curry none of the players really were either. IMO they've done a great job and the existence of the Fire XXX clubs does them a real disservice. It would be like your boss saying Krakken, you've done a real fine job, but we still may have to fire you at some point in the future. Wouldn't that be silly?

I don't know that 25-67 would be returning to earth so much as crashing and burning. If that happens, maybe I'll have some strong views on what ought to happen. It hasn't happened though, so I guess I'm good for now.

Finally, I disagree - I wasn't out of line. Last week you came into a thread I started and stated you were sick of just about everyone else in the thread. It was all so disgusting to you, you decided you needed to sit it out. Whether I was included in that list or not, you put the onus on yourself to stay pretty far above the fray. Sorry, but I find the whole Skiles debate just as hideous as the Hinrich one and I don't call endorsing a guy whose played a pretty big role in getting us where we're at "towing the company line".


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

The Krakken said:


> That may be what it _indicates_ but that isn't what it *means*.
> 
> I don't currently think that either of them should be fired. But I'm not giving them a free pass for the next four years either.
> 
> ...


You horribly mistate the other view. Again, didn't you put the onus on yourself to be better than that, krakken?

I don't believe either one of them should be fired, but I'd like to know who you are suggesting believes they deserve a free pass.

THERE ARE NO FREE PASSES.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Actually, I'm reminding you of how this season was, at the beginning.
> 
> *I am enjoying watching the players succeed*, and I am rooting for them to go all the way. I even have money on them to win it all at 50:1.


You like watching the players succeed, but you can't bring yourself to admit that perhaps management and the coaching staff has succeeded as well?

Do you think maybe possibly perhaps coaching had a little bit to do with the success of all those players?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> Looks to me like they exceeded EVERYONE's expectations, including their own - and the players exceeded expectations the most.


And that equates with asking that they be fired how? The fact that they exceeded expectations means that they are doing an even better job than anyone thought they could. Where I work, thats cause for praise, not termination. 

But maybe where you work exceeding expectations is evidence of incompetence.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

superdave said:


> How convenient. Bulls current team succeeds, its because of the players. Bulls' past teams fail (with Rose, Crawford, etc) time to blame management.
> 
> Got it


Ouch.


----------



## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

superdave said:


> How convenient. Bulls current team succeeds, its because of the players. Bulls' past teams fail (with Rose, Crawford, etc) time to blame management.
> 
> Got it


The inverse has been true as well. Bulls current team succeeds, its because of management. Bulls' past teams fail (with Rose, Crawford, etc) time to blame the players.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> And that equates with asking that they be fired how? The fact that they exceeded expectations means that they are doing an even better job than anyone thought they could. Where I work, thats cause for praise, not termination.
> 
> But maybe where you work exceeding expectations is evidence of incompetence.


The better comparator for these “Fire X” clubs is the bosses "**** list" at a workplace. Once you are on it, it takes a prolonged series of successes to get off it.

If this was the first season for PaxSkiles, I'm pretty sure the "Fire X" clubs would have few, if any, members. But... as everyone knows... that's not the case. It takes a while to get off the "**** list."

After the disaster of last season given the playoff guarantee, there is a threshold that needs to be met for many I'm sure. For me, its resigning (or getting a good trade for) the towers, since that's one of the main keys to the teams future.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> The better comparator for these “Fire X” clubs is the bosses "**** list" at a workplace. Once you are on it, it takes a prolonged series of successes to get off it.
> 
> If this was the first season for PaxSkiles, I'm pretty sure the "Fire X" clubs would have few, if any, members. But... as everyone knows... that's not the case. It takes a while to get off the "**** list."
> 
> After the disaster of last season given the playoff guarantee, there is a threshold that needs to be met for many I'm sure. For me, its resigning (or getting a good trade for) the towers, since that's one of the main keys to the teams future.


Can you honestly say that you weren't one of those who thought that we would make playoff last season? I was one of them. Considering everlasting praise for Jamal and Rose, etc. (especially regarding their finish in 2002-2003 season), my guess is that you also were one of those? Am I wrong? So when GM predicted it wrong, you want his head. But it is just fine when overzealous fan like us predicted "PLAYOFF" and then only to find out we were deadwrong too?

You were giving them (players) all the excuses for lase season's failure throughout the season yet still insisted on blaming it on Paxon and Skile.

And you think it's fair assessment. I think not.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

lgtwins said:


> Can you honestly say that you weren't one of those who thought that we would make playoff last season? I was one of them. Considering everlasting praise for Jamal and Rosetheetc. (especially regarding their finish in 2002-2003 season), my guess is thate you also were one of those? Am I wrong? So when GM predicted it wrong, you want his head. But it is just fine when overzealous fan like us predicted "PLAYOFF" and then only to find out we were deadwrong too?
> 
> You were giving them (players) all the excuses for lase season's failure throughout the season yet still insisted on blaming it on Paxon and Skile.
> 
> And you think it's fair assessment. I think not.


Yeah, and like most people, I thought this year's team would be a poor one.

The funny thing is, despite the two bitterly divided camps on this site, there is a consensus about how the team was going to do before the start of each of the last two seasons.

Most thought the team last year had a shot at being around a .500 team and sneak into the playoffs. Well, that team was destroyed before much of a season could be completed. The early returns were not promising, but there were legitimate circumstances involved. The early returns on this season were not promising either.

Most thought this year’s team would be a loser...and I don't think anyone was predicting double-digit games over .500.

That's what cracks me up about these "eat crow" threads... almost everyone was WRONG about this team this season AND last season. Somehow people are taking credit for being right, when in fact they were incorrect.

Granted, the most acerbic posters were not members before this season or last season.... so there is not really much that can be done to call them on it.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> And that equates with asking that they be fired how? The fact that they exceeded expectations means that they are doing an even better job than anyone thought they could. Where I work, thats cause for praise, not termination.
> 
> But maybe where you work exceeding expectations is evidence of incompetence.


And can you imagine if the Bulls did fire Skiles and Pax? What kind of coach and GM would come to a team that just fired a coach and general manager of a team that is 10 games over .500 and completely exceeding expectations?

No decent coach would want to be in that situation.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

The 6ft Hurdle said:


> The inverse has been true as well. Bulls current team succeeds, its because of management. Bulls' past teams fail (with Rose, Crawford, etc) time to blame the players.


Not that you care, but I was one of the more vocal posters against Jerry K during his 5 year post-dynasty run. But that's the past and I can't remember the last Jerry Krause post I even made.

Obviously the truth lies somewhere in the middle, with players and management both stepping up. But for me, Paxson had an offseason for the ages (perhaps analagous to JK's epic Pip/Horace draft?) and IMO that deserves some credit. If we keep Tyson/Eddy and our young core together... further credit is due. And as a fan, I'm relieved that our losing culture and ways of the past 5/6 seasons seem to be behind us.


----------



## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

There is one important thing to note that often gets overlooked in these types of debates (what happened last season vs. where we are now).

Remember last season and how we lost Tyson? We have a healthy, active, Tyson Chandler back this season and playing very good ball. Our rebounding went from poor to above average (or good), and our interior defense is light years ahead of where we were last season. I think Tyson's injury last year had a lot more significant impact on wins than anyone else might have thought possible.

I'm not trying to undermine the positive contributions or additions of anyone else to the team, but assuming Chandler is not playing, AD our only other defensive/rebounding oriented player, and he really can't have a positive expected value once you start pushing him to the 30mpg mark due to his age.


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Rhyder said:


> There is one important thing to note that often gets overlooked in these types of debates (what happened last season vs. where we are now).
> 
> Remember last season and how we lost Tyson? We have a healthy, active, Tyson Chandler back this season and playing very good ball. Our rebounding went from poor to above average (or good), and our interior defense is light years ahead of where we were last season. I think Tyson's injury last year had a lot more significant impact on wins than anyone else might have thought possible.
> 
> I'm not trying to undermine the positive contributions or additions of anyone else to the team, but assuming Chandler is not playing, AD our only other defensive/rebounding oriented player, and he really can't have a positive expected value once you start pushing him to the 30mpg mark due to his age.


The loss of Jay Williams was the Death Knell for last years team.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

superdave said:


> Not that you care, but I was one of the more vocal posters against Jerry K during his 5 year post-dynasty run. But that's the past and I can't remember the last Jerry Krause post I even made.
> 
> Obviously the truth lies somewhere in the middle, with players and management both stepping up. But for me, Paxson had an offseason for the ages (perhaps analagous to JK's epic Pip/Horace draft?) and IMO that deserves some credit. If we keep Tyson/Eddy and our young core together... further credit is due. And as a fan, I'm relieved that our losing culture and ways of the past 5/6 seasons seem to be behind us.


I think you are exactly right that the truth lies in the middle. Players, coaches, and management should all receive some of the blame for last season, and they should all receive praise for their success this year.

I just think the idea that the coaches were almost entirely to blame last year and the players are almost entirely to be credited for the success this year is a gross oversimplification.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> The loss of Jay Williams was the Death Knell for last years team.


A mid-season coaching change with such a young team also probably points to a negative expectency in terms of wins as well.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

superdave said:


> Not that you care, but I was one of the more vocal posters against Jerry K during his 5 year post-dynasty run. But that's the past and I can't remember the last Jerry Krause post I even made.
> 
> Obviously the truth lies somewhere in the middle, with players and management both stepping up. But for me, Paxson had an offseason for the ages (perhaps analagous to JK's epic Pip/Horace draft?) and IMO that deserves some credit. If we keep Tyson/Eddy and our young core together... further credit is due. And as a fan, I'm relieved that our losing culture and ways of the past 5/6 seasons seem to be behind us.


Not that you care, but I was actually one of the posters who defended Jerry K. Heh.

I don't think were any closer than when this thread started to convincing each other's side of anything.

But I guess we can agree on three things: that the comments that we made probably refer to Paxson/Skiles, that the answers of where to assign blame and credit lies somewhere in the middle, and that as fans, we should be happy that the Bulls are finally kicking some ***.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Most thought this year’s team would be a loser...and I don't think anyone was predicting double-digit games over .500.
> 
> That's what cracks me up about these "eat crow" threads... almost everyone was WRONG about this team this season AND last season. Somehow people are taking credit for being right, when in fact they were incorrect.
> 
> Granted, the most acerbic posters were not members before this season or last season.... so there is not really much that can be done to call them on it.


Not me.

http://basketballboards.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1571219&postcount=231


However, most of the people who thought that this team would be a loser started doing so long before the final pieces of the team that would play this season were in place.

It started when Paxson was hired, and not "so and so".

Their dread was furthured when Skiles was hired, and not "so and so".

Thats when it really started.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

GB said:


> It started when Paxson was hired, and not "so and so".
> 
> Their dread was furthured when Skiles was hired, and not "so and so".
> 
> Thats when it really started.


Man, I don't think so. The mood was really upbeat going into last season. I know I was excited as hell. I could not wait for opening night. Then... they laid a massive stink bomb on us.

I know I was high on Paxson when he was hired. Last season pissed me off to no end.


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