# McGrady's going to Houston!!!!!!



## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

*First major trade - McGrady's going to Houston!!!!!!*

According to ESPN... the deal is done.

McGrady, Howard, Gaines, & Lue for Francis, Mobley, and Cato.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Magic got RIPPPEDDD!!!!


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1831594

So it wasn't Francis, it was stupid Tyronne Lue that was holding up this deal!!


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Yao Mania</b>!
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1831594
> 
> So it wasn't Francis, it was stupid Tyronne Lue that was holding up this deal!!


Lue don't like to play for Magic?


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## kaydow (Apr 6, 2004)

Because Orlando got Houston to take J. Howards contract, I like the deal if I was a Majics fan. Hopefully, Franchise will lighten up about playing for Orlando. With Franchise, Mobley, D. Howard, J. Nelson, & co. Orlando will be fun to watch next season. This reminds me of when the Rockets got Pippen & Barkley in an attempt to "win now" in '98-'99. They got McGrady, but they gave up a ton & took a ton of garbage in cap space.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

side question: can you still be called "Franchise" if you get traded for a superior player?


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

Its strange to see McGrady in a Houston uniform.

http://www.nba.com/rockets/


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!
> side question: can you still be called "Franchise" if you get traded for a superior player?


LOL... guess not. There should probably be an asterisk next to his nickname.

_Stevie Franchise *_ 








* Note: this only pertains to when being compared to players of inferior basketball skill and knowledge.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

the Rockets are now my official "Other Favorite NBA Team."

Detroit is relegated to my "Other Other Favorite NBA Team." 

Sorry, Sheed, but I just can't pass on McGrady and Yao.


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

Hopefully all of those Rocket games on ESPN and NBC won't be so boring now.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SheedSoNasty</b>!
> Hopefully all of those Rocket games on ESPN and NBC won't be so boring now.


that's a really good point. it's been really too bad that so many of the nationally televised games last year featured the Spurs, Lakers, Cavs and Rockets because of star appeal. kinda boring ball. 

this season we get to look forward to a McGrady-led Rockets, a fantastic defensive team in Detroit, and more love for the Wolves. 

things are looking up.


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

Isn't Juwon on a pretty reasonable MLE contract? Orlando got some solid players, but I don't see that they came out ahead in terms of contracts. If I were them, I'd of held out for some way to dump Hill's anchor at the same time.

Dan


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

C.Ford just said on ESPN RADIO that his sources say that Orlando will trade Mobley, and maybe Cato.


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## yangsta (May 14, 2003)

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I LOVE IT!! Too bad blazers didn't get him.. but oh well.. I'm still lovin it


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## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

where houstons supporting cast at ????????????? this deal will make orlando a few wins better , houston will stay the same 7th in the west


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Agreed,with no supporting cast Houston may improve 1 or 2 slots in the West. They don't scare me:laugh:


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>cimalee</b>!
> where houstons supporting cast at ????????????? this deal will make orlando a few wins better , houston will stay the same 7th in the west


I agree.


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## QRICH (Feb 2, 2004)

Westcoast remix Tmac wallpaper


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

No supporting Cast??? I;ll admit the PG position isn't too pretty, but here are some #'s.

SG Jim Jackson 12.9ppg 6rpg 1 2.8apg
SF McGrady 28ppg 6rpg 5.5apg
PF Howard 17ppg 7rpg 2apg
Yao 17.5ppg 9rpg 1.5apg

Bench
Mo Taylor 11.5ppg 5.5rpg

Ok after that I got Nothing, but that is 86+ PPG from 5 players.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

this trade will have a huge impact on the West. 

the Rockets are a house. Yao and McGrady are the walls. the rest is spackle. 

it may take a year or two for them to fill in all the gaps, but make no mistake: this is a massive upgrade. 

throw out Yao, and McGrady still has the best teammate he's had in a while in Jim Jackson, and the best coach he's ever had in Van Gundy. 

assuming the Wolves finally get healthy, they look to be the top team in the West. I'd follow that with whichever team Shaq goes to and then Houston.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Imagine the 10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2...McGrady(#1)....Liftoff. possibilities.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

I'm not sure how the Rockets get better. I'm not sure they get better at all. On paper, they look WORSE. Francis and Mobley together are better than McGrady by himself. Cato was a very valuable weapon that hid some of Yao's deficiencies. 

If I thought McGrady was a REAL franchise player, I'd be impressed. But we learned last year, that McGrady's game is SERIOUSLY flawed. No true superstar player fails to lead his team to 25 wins, no matter WHO your teammates are.

Mobley, Francis, and Cato were a big part of Houston's solid D last season. McGrady is NOT an upgrade on D. I feel bad for Yao. He deserves better. He deserves to play with a REAL point guard who can feed the post, play D, and hit the three (maybe they'll sign Derek Fisher??). And he deserves to play with a more team oriented shooting guard than McGrady. A guy who knows how to win.

I predict that the Rockets win no more than 42 games and fail to make the playoffs next season unless they sign another major free agent.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Schilly</b>!
> No supporting Cast??? I;ll admit the PG position isn't too pretty, but here are some #'s.
> 
> SG Jim Jackson 12.9ppg 6rpg 1 2.8apg
> ...


Mo Taylor and J Howard are laughable palyers at best,sorry, Jimmy Jackson is a piece to their puzzle I really like though. He could turn out to their version of Rick Fox back when he hit a lot of 3's. Get a more Malik Rose type PF,maybe a Bo Outlaw and a Derek Fisher type PG,hell even D-Stoud would fit in nicely there, Surround those 2 with Hustle players, shooters, and rebounders who know their role. As of right now, that team that they have doesn't intimidiate me. Jim Jackson is the only role player I think is talented on their team.


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## KIDBLAZE (Jul 8, 2003)

houston still doesn't have a pg. unless you want to call tyrone lue one


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## Yega1979 (Mar 22, 2003)

Francis and Mobley are pretty average guards. I'm really suprised this is the best offer on the table! We could have delt Ratliff and Rahim or some such package.

Will Portland trade for Mobley? He'd be an upgrade over DA.


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## Draco (Jun 28, 2003)

I think we have a good shot at trading for Mobley if its true ORL doesnt want him.


I cant believe some people think the Rockets wont be a better team. When you get two superstars it doesn't matter who you put around them, they'll be great. The lakers had very bad playoffs from everyone but shaq and Kobe yet still were the 2nd best team in the entire league, with all the drama.

This move is an A+ for the rockets they are right up there with Minny, SA, and Shaq's team next year in the west.

Its not like Mobley or Francis were like much in Houston, they did not fit in at all with what Jeff wanted to do with his team.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Draco</b>!
> When you get two superstars it doesn't matter who you put around them, they'll be great.
> This move is an A+ for the rockets they are right up there with Minny, SA, and Shaq's team next year in the west.


excellent points.


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## Lurch (Nov 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>cimalee</b>!
> where houstons supporting cast at ????????????? this deal will make orlando a few wins better , houston will stay the same 7th in the west


 I totally disagre! Mcgrady and Ming are going to be unstopable. Jim Jackson and Maurice Taylor are good!

For PG though Houston maybe in trouble Tyronn Lue isnt even a good back up much less starter. Lue is good awful at defense and isnt a good passer! Houson better hope rookie Vassilis Spanoulis pans out at PG!


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## Draco (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Lurch</b>!
> 
> 
> I totally disagre! Mcgrady and Ming are going to be unstopable. Jim Jackson and Maurice Taylor are good!
> ...


You put me in at PG with Yao and Mcgrady and they'd be fine. All you gotta do is run down and pass it to one of those 2 then let them play with each other.


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

Stevie DisenFranchised ?


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Schilly</b>!
> Magic got RIPPPEDDD!!!!


Boy howdy they sure did!


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## mixum (Mar 19, 2003)

*McGrady to Houston looks GREAT...but is it?*

Keep this in mind when saying houston will be great with McGrady.....first off, unless i missed something mcGrady doesnt play defense and likes to shoot.....call me crazy but thats not van gundys style and howard is a liability on defense so a team that bases itself on dfense now has gotta completely change.....also whos the backcourt....lue LOL? i mean this team has 2 great players but thats it and unless they can count on tMAc staying healthy I think the rockets are an average team that might end up barely making the playoffs.

Tmac is not gonna play every game this season for them....so seriously i would be suprised if they got higher than the 7th spot in next years playoffs!

Yao, tmac are great players....but Yao is still got a ways to go!

the rest of the team.....lue, howard, taylor....are hardly gonna make a impact and think of it this way....that same group in orlando did crap....will yao make that much of a difference...?


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

It seems you're underestimating McGrady. He's a guy who shoots a lot because he has to, I feel, rather than just because he WANTS to (like Iverson). McGrady's capable of 6 or 7 assists a game, and with a stronger Rockets supporting cast (including Ming) I'd expect him to be up there, along with 6 or 7 rebounds a game and ~25 ppg.

I think it was a _very_ good move for Houston. Unless the Rockets back it up with some more solid additions (a decent PG, for starters) Houston won't be a "very good" team, let alone great, for at least a couple more years.

If the Rockets can add a PG while retaining some depth, they're going to be a top 4 team in the West for the next several years.

Ed O.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

*Re: McGrady to Houston looks GREAT...but is it?*



> Originally posted by <b>mixum</b>!
> Keep this in mind when saying houston will be great with McGrady.....first off, unless i missed something mcGrady doesnt play defense and likes to shoot.....


He was known for his defense first, as an NBA player. With the Raptors and in his first season in Orlando, he played great defense. As he was forced to carry the entire offense burden, his defensive effort dropped off...one only has a certain amount of energy to expend. A single player can make a greater impact on offense then on defense. One player can score single-handedly whereas one player cannot stop an opposing team from scoring single-handedly. On a consistent basis, that is (certainly a steal, for example, can be a single-handed stop but those aren't common enough).

Given the chance to play with others who can share the offensive load, McGrady will be free to put more energy into defense and Van Gundy will demand it of him.

As far as his propensity to shoot, he usualy spends a great deal of time setting up his teammates. That they fail to convert easy opportunities is not his failing. The fact that he picks up nearly 6 assists per game, as a non-point guard and with the dreck around him, gives some evidence of his willingness to share the ball.



> the rest of the team.....lue, howard, taylor....are hardly gonna make a impact and think of it this way....that same group in orlando did crap....will yao make that much of a difference...?


Well, pushing Juwan Howard from second option to fourth option will be a big help. Howard is not a good second option. One can argue he's a pretty decent fourth option.

Jim Jackson is a nice complimentary piece; a slasher and shooter to play off Yao and McGrady.

Maurice Taylor is a decent scorer off the bench.

But I do agree with you and that a *lot* rides on Yao improving. He's not dominant yet, he's just a good player with a true center body. For Houston to be championship-caliber, Yao needs to become dominant and McGrady's game needs to mesh well with Yao's game.


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## yangsta (May 14, 2003)

We know what T-Mac is capable of.. and the rest is up to how well yao will develop

This is my prediction for their numbers next season:

PPG RPG APG STL BLK FG% 
YAO 19.0 10.0 3.0 0.5 2.5 51% 
TMAC 26.0 5.5 7.0 2.0 1.5 46% 


I still don't give yao the 20-10 because of the olympics this offseason...


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## RollOutPnoy (Jan 22, 2003)

This trade is great for the Rockets. Their only weakness on their team is now PG but I think Tyronn Lue is good enough to get the job done. Mike Wilks is a good back-up. They also need to find a back-up C for Yao.


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## Terrible (Jan 3, 2003)

The Rockets could pick up Fisher right now and have a vet PG for cheap until they get a better one next year.


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## yangsta (May 14, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Terrible</b>!
> The Rockets could pick up Fisher right now and have a vet PG for cheap until they get a better one next year.


I'm not sure about the cheap part.. he opted out of his Lakers contract because he felt that $3million was not enough.. I think he was asking for a ludicrous amount.. like 7 mill or something...


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## Public Defender (May 5, 2003)

I agree with Minstrel and Ed O - Tracy McGrady is one of the five best players in the NBA, and before long, Yao Ming will be, too. 

That means the Rockets will replace the Lakers as having the dynamite duo needed to be in championship contention. The Rockets will need a few more players, but if they can nab a good point guard via free agency or trade, then all they need is a center backup. 

PG: free agent*, Tyronn Lue, Mark Jackson
SG: Tracy McGrady, Adrian Griffin, Bostjan Nochbar
SF: Jimmy Jackson, Scott Padgett 
PF: Juwan Howard, Maurice Taylor 
C: Yao Ming

* - this signing will be important, but what point guard wouldn't want to join T-Mac and Yao? Isn't Steve Nash a free agent...? 

The only other missing piece is a backup to Yao. Considering Kelvin Cato is one of the laziest players in the entire NBA, all it would take is a guy with some size who's not afraid to use some fouls and will get a few garbage points. Where's Joe Kleine when you need him? 

Rockets will make the playoffs. If Yao can improve to be a 20-10 guy with a handful of blocks per night, they'll be very, very good.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

The Rockets already HAD two superstars. Francis has started in the last two All Star games and is an EXCEPTIONAL talent.

If McGrady equals wins, how come he couldn't even get the Magic to the 25 win plateau last season? If McGrady, with no Yao, is only good for about 20 wins, is Yao REALLY going to carry the other 30? no.

Draco- this Houston team is not very good. 

People that think this new Houston team is good are the same people who thought the Lakers would win 70 and easily win the title. I maintained all along that those Lakers wouldn't even win 60 and they didn't!


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> The Rockets already HAD two superstars. Francis has started in the last two All Star games and is an EXCEPTIONAL talent.


Francis is not a superstar. He's a low-grade star, an undersized shooting guard playing point guard who shoots a poor percentage. And makes terrible decisions, especially down the stretch.

He's one notch above Damon Stoudamire.



> If McGrady equals wins, how come he couldn't even get the Magic to the 25 win plateau last season?


Terrible teammates. If you look at the Magic winning percentage without McGrady and with him, the percentage with McGrady was much higher, meaning that his presence *did* lead to wins.

In fact, the *only* two games the Magic's supporting cast could win without McGrady were the final two games against the Bulls and Sixers, neither of whom dressed their entire team.

Contrast that with another "bad" supporting cast: The Sixers beat the Timberwolves, Mavericks and Spurs without Allen Iverson, among various other games.

McGrady had easily the worst supporting cast in the NBA and maybe one of the worst of all-time.


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## yangsta (May 14, 2003)

People tend to forget the 3 seasons he carried that team to the playoffs.... I would say it would be easy for him to lose his interest if after 3 seasons.. your supporting cast was getting continually worse... Tmac really needed a semi decent 2nd scoring option to hit the open J's, whom they lost when Armstrong, Mike Miller left... after they left it was basically tmac as #1 option, and about 8 , #7 options...


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> The Rockets already HAD two superstars. Francis has started in the last two All Star games and is an EXCEPTIONAL talent.
> 
> If McGrady equals wins, how come he couldn't even get the Magic to the 25 win plateau last season? If McGrady, with no Yao, is only good for about 20 wins, is Yao REALLY going to carry the other 30? no.
> ...



*Deleted.* Personal shots are unacceptable. 

Put Tim Duncan on a team with a bunch of nbdl scrubs what do you think you get? I hope u dont say a playoff bound team, not even in the east.

Individual players themselves do not account for wins solely. McGrady does not guarantee 20 wins, and 20 wins alone. Just the previous year the magic were in the playoffs... some teams just meltdown.

Go ask laker fans and their team which was supposed to go 80-2 with 4 future hall of famers. Go ask them about Kobe without Shaq as we have seen not too long ago.

Its funny, because when McGrady broke out, he was neck and neck with Kobe on all fronts. Only recently did Kobe move ahead... due to Tmacs play and his team... any player would be burnt out if the burden was placed upon them without the proper team backing that Tmac had. If jordan was surrounded by scrubs, his stats wouldnt change, but he wouldnt have 6 rings neither.

If you say Steve Francis was enough, and the trade was unnecessary think about this. McGrady gives you everything Steve Francis did and more. Not to mention Francis knew what it was like to be the man, and he was clearly having problems with not being the man. He can say he will defer and change as much as he wants, and you can buy it as much as you want, but when i watched games, i see steve dribble the ball out for more than half of the shot clock, and launch some bonehead shots. 

After years of being the first and only option on the magic, and know what he can do... mcgrady seems to be more subserviant, all the while i get the feeling he can still play his game and dominate offensively.

When given the chance, if two players are completely equal in all but size, you ALWAYS trade for the player who's taller.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

T-Mac never carried the Magic to the playoffs. It was his TEAMMATES, remember? After all, that was his excuse for missing them this last season. The Magic really didn't improve when McGrady joined. They were just as mediocre BEFORE he arrived.

[strike]Public Defender- catch up.[/strike] The formula for winning a championship is NOT two superstars and hasn't been for two seasons.

Francis IS a superstar. He had a pretty nice playoff this year too. about 19 ppg, 8 rpg, 8 apg. Not bad at all.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

By the way, McGrady had good teammates last year. He just didn't know how to use them. Notice how well Giricek played when he went to Utah. McGrady had that guy to pass to for most of the year. He basically had the SAME team that went to the playoffs the year before, but with Lue instead of Armstrong. AND they added Juwan Howard.

The bottom line is that McGrady has no heart and doesn't care about winning.

Last year's slow start was COMPLETELY McGrady's fault. He came out flat and let his team down. Remember- he averaged 32 ppg two seasons ago. If he had brought his 32 ppg to the first 20 games, they would have started the season 10-10. And then he just gave up. He didn't play D. He didn't lead. He didn't look to make his teammates better. He made sure he had a couple big scoring games to clinch the scoring title and then sat down. It was NOT difficult to make the playoffs out East last year. Paul Pierce did it with LESS TALENT around him.


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## BLAZER PROPHET (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm going to agree with Nate on this one. 

If I were Houston, I'd much rather have Francis than T-Mac. Francis is a superior playmaker than can get Yao as involved as he's going to get. T-Mac won't do that. He's a scorer for the most part. I think it's a poor trade for the Rockets, but that doesn't mean they won't make the playoffs- just that I don't see them anymore as a team rising in the league unless they can find a good playmaker.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Duncan mostly plays with scrubs! Who were those guys he played with this past season? None of them were All Stars, I'll tell you that. Duncan makes his teammates better. McGrady doesn't.


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## Public Defender (May 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> [strike]Public Defender- catch up.[/strike] The formula for winning a championship is NOT two superstars and hasn't been for two seasons.


I'll overlook the patronizing "catch up" comment. Considering you write "professionally" over at Hoopsworld, I'd like to think you're above being so annoyingly condescending. 

So, because a different formula has worked the past two seasons (although in the Spurs' case, you could say that Duncan & Parker are the two biggies), that must mean that the fact that ten of the previous 12 championships were won by teams with two stars and a supporting cast is invalid? To be clear, I mean the 6 Bulls rings, the 3 Laker rings, and the Rockets' team with Drexler and Hakeem. 

The Magic were horrid last year because T-Mac was struggling to stay healthy, and his surrounding talent was utterly useless. T-Mac was the *biggest* reason the Magic made the playoffs the previous seasons, though he was helped by being healthy and by having Mike Miller among others.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Public Defender</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll overlook the patronizing "catch up" comment. Considering you write "professionally" over at Hoopsworld, I'd like to think you're above being so annoyingly condescending.


wrong nathan. This is the nathanlane who used to (or maybe still is) be the "fan" @ the oregonian. At least I think.

you're thinking of Nate Bishop.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Drexler only played on ONE of the Houston teams. The other Houston team only had one superstar. Tony Parker is NOT a superstar.... at ALL. He's not even an All Star.

The Magic were a fine hard working team BEFORE McGrady joined. When he joined, nothing changed. He got numbers, but they won the same amount of games. Two seasons ago, he upped his game to 32 ppg and the team was structured around that. Giricek and Gooden joined in and the team got BETTER and nearly got out of the first round, if it weren't for McGrady completely stinking up the joint in Game 7. EVERYONE played well in that game but McGrady. THEN, they lost Armstrong (the real reason behind their success) but added Howard and Lue. McGrady had just as much talent. PROBLEM IS.... McGrady turned his game off. He went from a 32 ppg player to a 24 ppg player and the team lost lots of close games while he was fiddlin around. Late in the season, when nothing mattered, he scored 50 or 60 now and then to hike up his scoring average and then quit.

That is what happened.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

And I don't write for Hoopsworld.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BLAZER PROPHET</b>!
> 
> If I were Houston, I'd much rather have Francis than T-Mac. Francis is a superior playmaker than can get Yao as involved as he's going to get. T-Mac won't do that. He's a scorer for the most part.


2003 assist average: 
Francis: 6
McGrady: 5.5

2003 talentless scrubs I have to pass the ball to:
Francis: 5
McGrady: 11

on top of that, McGrady almost matches Francis while playing OFF THE BALL. McGrady is a far superior playmaker, and at 6-8 it's going to be that much easier for him to find Yao in the middle.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

I actually think the high pass to Yao will be huge for the Rockets. a lot of Francis' passes hit Yao in the midsection, where he's got to gather himself and make a play on the basket. and I can't count the number of times Francis would deliver the damn ball to Yao's kneecaps. 

McGrady is going to deliver the ball higher, where Yao can just grab and shoot. You see it happen all the time with Kobe to Shaq--most of the assists Kobe gives to Shaq are the easiest buckets in the game for Shaq.


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## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tragedy</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



its not just duncan its pops tough sticky defensive system


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

McGrady had GORDON GIRICEK for most of the year. Once Gordon got away from loser McGrady, he THRIVED.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> McGrady had GORDON GIRICEK for most of the year. Once Gordon got away from loser McGrady, he THRIVED.


His best period of play was with Orlando, in 02-03:

27 games, 44 FG%, 14.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.11 spg

All career-bests.

In 03-04, with Orlando, the only reason his *per-game* averages dropped was because he only started about half the games (as opposed to starting in every game with Orlando in 02-03). He ended up playing about 6 less minutes per game, which caused his averages to drop.

Looking at something that's not minutes-influenced, like field goal percentage, you have:

02-03 Memphis: 43%
02-03 Orlando: 44%
03-04 Orlando: 44%
03-04 Utah: 43%

So, there's really no truth to your claim that Giricek struggled with McGrady and thrived away from him. His best stretch came with McGrady and he shot his best percentages with McGrady.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

WHEN did I say that Giricek struggled with McGrady?

NEVER.

BUT YOU JUST PROVED MY POINT- McGrady had talent around him. So don't make excuses and say that the 11 guys around McGrady were talentless scrubs.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> WHEN did I say that Giricek struggled with McGrady?
> 
> NEVER.


You said he "thrived" away from McGrady. He didn't, unless you're changing the definition of "thrived" to "stayed the same or got worse."



> BUT YOU JUST PROVED MY POINT- McGrady had talent around him. So don't make excuses and say that the 11 guys around McGrady were talentless scrubs.


No, he really didn't have talent around him. When Giricek and Howard are your next best players, that's a pretty talentless group of players.

I didn't say every player, 2-12, was a talentless scrub. I said that that group of players around him was pretty talentless...which is true when the next three best players are mediocre (Giricek, Howard and Gooden) and everyone else is a scrub. That is a *terrible* surrounding cast.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> You said he "thrived" away from McGrady. He didn't, unless you're changing the definition of "thrived" to "stayed the same or got worse."



2003-2004 Season Statistics: In 48 games with the Orlando Magic, Giricek averaged 10.2 ppg in 29.9 mpg. In 25 games with the Utah Jazz, Giricek averaged 13.5 ppg in 24.2 mpg. That's more than THREE MORE POINTS in more than FIVE LESS MINUTES. Giricek also established his career high of 33 pts in a single game during those 25 games with Utah.

How is a RISE OF THREE POINTS in FIVE LESS POINTS qualified as "stayed the same or got worse"? Answer: It's not!

Bringing up the 2002-2003 season is USELESS because that just PROVES MY POINT that McGrady played MUCH better in 2002-2003 and thus made his teammates better in 2002-2003 but then slacked off during the 2003-2004 season and made excuses while his team took a nosedive.


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## tchan (Jun 26, 2004)

First of all, I don't think its so much about being surrounded by scrubs rather than having a good mix of players. That being said, I don't think you can call Ginobili, Parker, Bowen, Nesterovic a "scrubby" team. Not to mention Pop, who is one of the best coaches in the NBA. 

Personal stats aren't always reflective of the skill of a player. Also, sometimes the system really helps a player improve their stats or helps a player thrive. Just look at what happened to Payton when he went to LA. As much as people say that he's aged, I find it hard to believe that a few months (from last season to this one) had THAT much to do with his decline in numbers. Giricek went to Utah, who has one of the best coaches of all time, and I think Sloan is one of the best in utilizing his players strengths.

And I'm sorry, but I really can't see the justification for some of the heat TMac is taking in here. Stats aside, have you guys seen him play? He's one of the few guys in the league who will make you jump out of your seat or hold your head in disbelief at how effortless he kills oponents even with the double and triple teams. Right up there with Theo Ratliff's shot blocking in my opinion. Thats just a personal thing though, but I don't see how anyone who watches TMac play can say that he is not great. 

The orlando magic were dysfuntional. Their 2nd and 3rd best players were both undersized, mediocre post players. Being on a team that can't support you is tough. Unless you're in a great system, its very draining to be surrounded by bad players, even if you are a great player like TMac. You saw how Kobe and the Lakers did when Shaq was hurt. Tmac did it all year last year. Its very frustrating to kick it out to the open man and watch him miss the shot or turn it over. 

Also, its a lot more draining when the franchise seems to have no direction. If there's one bad season, you can always tell yourself that next season the team will improve through the lottery, or make trades, etc etc. But if the team seems to get worse every year, its frustrating and it affects a player's play. 

The argument that the Magic didn't improve with TMac is a bit hard to use in saying that TMac is not a good or great player. The Magic lost a lot of pieces trying to get Grant Hill and TMac, including Ben Wallace. Tmac was in his first year as a lead player, and the assumed leader of the team (Hill) was out. Yet TMac still exceeded expectations and took his Magic to the playoffs. In terms of great players playing on bad teams, the only thing anyone has to look at is this:

1984-85 38 44 .463 
1985-86 30 52 .366 
1986-87 40 42 .488 

Thats the record of the chicago bulls the first three years Jordan was there. Granted he was injured for a good part of one of the seasons, but he played two full seasons and part of a third. That doesn't seem very awesome to me. He was around TMac's age then as well. It wasn't until a few years after they got Pippen, and the bulls organization surrounded the two of them with quality role players that they really started to roll. By role players i dont mean non superstar players that are decent, but people who are willing and able to play the roles the team needs them to play. 

In terms of defense, I agree with Minstrel. For those of you who remember TMac in his Toronto days, he was being touted as one of the best shot blocking swingmen in the NBA. Not that shot blocking is the sole measure of a good defensive player, but watching Toronto games, he was DEFINITELY getting there in terms of being a good defensive player.

I think Houston will be more than ok with Yao and TMac as their anchors. Remember, TMac is 25 and Yao is 22 or something like that. As they learn to play with each other, and as management figures out what they need to put around TMac and Yao, Houston has the potential to be one of the elite teams in the league. 

Just my two cents. I'm bored and annoyed because I woke up early for work and it got cancelled. Though I guess a three day weekend isn't too bad, I can't complain.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

You talk about those Spur players as being good because Duncan made them champions (shorty of Rasho).

Duncan has won with LESS. JAREN JACKSON. AVERY JOHNSON. In fact, those two were more effective than this year's backcourt. All you have to do to win with Duncan is make your damn open shots in the playoffs. Jackson could do that in 99. Kerr bailed the Spurs out in 03. None of the guys could do it this year. Not Parker, Manu, Bowen etc.

If Duncan played with Giricek, Howard, Gooden, and Lue, you'd be talking about how those players are pretty decent and that McGrady had no help with mediocre players like Parker, Bowen, Manu, and Nesterovic.


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## tchan (Jun 26, 2004)

I didn't say that the players individually are great or not, I said that the team itself is built well. They built the team around Duncan, and got players that can complement Duncan. Duncan fits in well with his team, and his team fits in well with him.


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