# ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonight!!



## Bulls4Life

ESPN1000 is reporting that their NBA sources are telling them that at 12:01 tonight, Pax is gonna offer Ben Wallace the WORLD to sign with the Bulls.

Now we all want Wallace, but not at the max!! Now their saying that they are gonna throw everything they've got at Wallace, and they're speculating that his signing would mean the end of Tyson Chandler's career as a Bull. The talk is Pax is actively seeking to trade TC to a west coast team because he is from L.A..



What do you guys think of this development????????


Personally, I want Wallace but not at the max and not if it means giving up on Chandler! :curse:


Mark my words, put TC on a running team and he will look awesome! Don't trade him, run more!


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## Bulls rock your socks

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Make a 3 team trade with someone else cause then if we trade TC then we'd b really short again cause wallace is like 6'8


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

I'm liking this!


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

DaBullz, you can remove me from the fire paxson club if this isn't just ESPN dishwater (get it, offer the sink).


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Paxson!
Paxson!!
Paxson!!!
Paxson!!!!
Paxson!!!!!
Paxson!!!!!!
Paxson!!!!!!!


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## kulaz3000

Bulls4Life said:


> ESPN1000 is reporting that their NBA sources are telling them that at 12:01 tonight, Pax is gonna offer Ben Wallace the WORLD to sign with the Bulls.
> 
> Now we all want Wallace, but not at the max!! Now their saying that they are gonna throw everything they've got at Wallace, and they're speculating that his signing would mean the end of Tyson Chandler's career as a Bull. The talk is Pax is actively seeking to trade TC to a west coast team because he is from L.A..
> 
> 
> 
> What do you guys think of this development????????
> 
> 
> Personally, I want Wallace but not at the max and not if it means giving up on Chandler! :curse:
> 
> 
> Mark my words, put TC on a running team and he will look awesome! Don't trade him, run more!



Beware of all these rumours around this free agent signing period. Don't take things too seriously. Why? Because it could be agents just throwing things around for people to report to gain leverage for their players. Perfect example was with Eddie Jones, Tracey Mcgrady or even Ray Allen, they all "apparently" flirted with the idea of signing with Bulls, but only used them as leverage to get the desired money from their preferred team. So i wouldn't count on it too much. 

I also don't see Paxson signing Wallace and then trading Chandler. We become a mighty short team, and i think Paxson isn't stupid enough not to realize that.


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## UMfan83

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

If you think about it, besides the occasional flameouts, this is the kinda player Paxson would throw his money at. I wish he could score/hit FTs more


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



kulaz3000 said:


> Beware of all these rumours around this free agent signing period. Don't take things too seriously. Why? Because it could be agents just throwing things around for people to report to gain leverage for their players. Perfect example was with Eddie Jones, Tracey Mcgrady or even Ray Allen, they all "apparently" flirted with the idea of signing with Bulls, but only used them as leverage to get the desired money from their preferred team. So i wouldn't count on it too much.
> 
> I also don't see Paxson signing Wallace and then trading Chandler. We become a mighty short team, and i think Paxson isn't stupid enough not to realize that.


But then again, we offer Wallace big contract, he calls Dumars, Dumars won't pay that money. Wallace signs with us. Perfect example was Steve Nash signing with Phoenix. I think he'd prefer our team over Detroit, he wasn't happy there, and was complaining about the emphasis on offense. It will be all about defense here, and unlike Tyson, Ben does have an offensive game, its called the slam dunk, which he does effectively. With a veteran like Ben on the team, our team as a whole will be treated like more of a veteran team, just because of his presence, and we'll just get to the line more because of that, our team will get the respect of veterans on defense, and Tyson will no longer be called for some of those fouls anymore. Our defense improves, just by having Wallace here. If Wallace can prove to dunk the ball/bank it on offense, which he has looked like he could do in Detroit, so his lack of offense won't be like Tyson lack of offense this year. He's a good fit for our system, and his body won't break down within the next 5 years, have you guys seen the condition he keeps his body in? Kevin Willis shape....only better. He didn't look like he broke down over the playoffs, he looked like he didn't care to be on the team.


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## theanimal23

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

I am very torn on this. I would not mind offering MAX MONEY for 3 years (ideal), 4 maximum. 

He would be a great vet presence for Tyson and Tyrus. We would instantly become the best defensive team in the league, FOR SURE. We would get more respect by other teams and the refs. This one move, will KILL Detroit. They will still be a good team, but possibly not a championship winning team. We are right behind Miami and tied with CLE as the best teams. I don't care what moves we do, having Lebron James on your team is as lethal of a weapon needed to succeed. 

The cons, he is old. Thats why I want to give him minimal years. I say we are 2 years away from winning a championship. Next year we take the step to reach the 2nd round, possibly ECF. Then the year after we are on the verge of being ECF/Finals bound for a good few years. If you get Wilcox and/or Nene, you have a team of similar age. I just don't want to be a 1 time wonder. I wanna win several titles. Having a team of similar age and hitting their primes is key for that. 

My final vote, if it counts. Give Big Men Max money for a 3 or 4 year deal. I think he can be effective as hell for 2. The third year some decline, but good still. The 4th year, he is an expiring contract. We can definitely get some value back in a trade.

Edit: Anyone know how much money we would have leftover if we offer Big Ben the max? Could we still sign another average Big? I'd love to get Nazr/Butler as our final big after getting Big Ben.


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Whats wrong with being a one time wonder? Ask Miami how good that championship feels. If we only win 1 championship with Ben in the 5 years he's here, I don't see the problem with that, wouldn't that make it a success? Gordon, Nocioni, Deng, Hinrich, Thabo, Thomas, Tyson, they aren't close to reaching their potential, the rest of their team should be coming into their primes as Ben declines, and with the 5 year deal to Ben, thats Ben and Tyson in expiring contracts if Tyson doesn't pan out for that year, lots of good trades we could make at the deadline. I think giving Big Ben a max 5 year contract is a nobrainer.


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Good lord. We might be the first team to shut out another team next season if Wallace signs with us. Ben Wallace, Kirk Hinrich, Andres Nocioni, Luol Deng, Tyrus Thomas, Thabo Sefalosha and Chris Duhon. I mean, damn. You talk about a combination of speed, length and athleticism, along with very disciplined defense, and a couple guys who are just bulldogs. That's just an insane group of guys to have on the floor for your team defensively. 

But scoring, that will be the challenge if Wallace is our big free agent signing.


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Paxson on signing Wallace: "He has good athleticism, and length".


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## theanimal23

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

I'd love to win the title next year. But I don't want to go to the finals like the 76ers, Pacers, etc vs the Lakers, and then not sniff the finals again for the longest time. That would get to me. Then it comes back to the storyline of, well we got a young team hitting their potential, but if you don't win a title, you might as well rebuild? I just don't want to be stuck in that loop.

I think Ben, Kirk, and Noce will hit their strides this year. Luol is another year away. Big Ben would be VERY BENEFICIAL to Tyson's development. 

I'm all for getting Big Ben. I just hope, we are title contenders his entire duration in Chicago. Worse comes to worse, we will be a great destination for Vets looking for the MLE, and next year's NYK pick 

Someone warn other teams, the Swat Team will be out C) Wallace PF) Tyson SF) Tyrus


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## darlets

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> But then again, we offer Wallace big contract, he calls Dumars, Dumars won't pay that money. Wallace signs with us. Perfect example was Steve Nash signing with Phoenix. I think he'd prefer our team over Detroit, he wasn't happy there, and was complaining about the emphasis on offense. It will be all about defense here, and unlike Tyson, Ben does have an offensive game, its called the slam dunk, which he does effectively. With a veteran like Ben on the team, our team as a whole will be treated like more of a veteran team, just because of his presence, and we'll just get to the line more because of that, our team will get the respect of veterans on defense, and Tyson will no longer be called for some of those fouls anymore. Our defense improves, just by having Wallace here. If Wallace can prove to dunk the ball/bank it on offense, which he has looked like he could do in Detroit, so his lack of offense won't be like Tyson lack of offense this year. He's a good fit for our system, and his body won't break down within the next 5 years, have you guys seen the condition he keeps his body in? Kevin Willis shape....only better. He didn't look like he broke down over the playoffs, he looked like he didn't care to be on the team.


Top post. Hit the nail right on the head. Wallace would bring start power at least on the Defensive end.


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## Amareca

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Ben Wallace is like 34 and Steve Nash didn't get a max contract from the Suns.

Wallace prime is behind him, he was a liability with his FTs in this years playoffs.


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



theanimal23 said:


> I'd love to win the title next year. But I don't want to go to the finals like the 76ers, Pacers, etc vs the Lakers, and then not sniff the finals again for the longest time. That would get to me. Then it comes back to the storyline of, well we got a young team hitting their potential, but if you don't win a title, you might as well rebuild? I just don't want to be stuck in that loop.
> 
> I think Ben, Kirk, and Noce will hit their strides this year. Luol is another year away. Big Ben would be VERY BENEFICIAL to Tyson's development.
> 
> I'm all for getting Big Ben. I just hope, we are title contenders his entire duration in Chicago. Worse comes to worse, we will be a great destination for Vets looking for the MLE, and next year's NYK pick
> 
> Someone warn other teams, the Swat Team will be out C) Wallace PF) Tyson SF) Tyrus


Will we be the first championship team to get the #1 pick in the draft? The irony would be great. I think a sweep of the Knicks in the first round might be worth more than a lottery pick though. All the announcers mentioning how Isiah Thomas built our team, Isiah Thomas seems like he has a good handle on how to coach the Knicks, so they could easily be our first round opponent in the playoffs.


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## BullSoxChicagosFinest

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

We already have a Big Ben :angel: 











TORCH!


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



BullSoxChicagosFinest said:


> We already have a Big Ben :angel:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TORCH!


Thats different, Ben Gordon is big ben because he is from London.

Ben Wallace is big ben because he is big, and his name is ben.

You hardly can confuse the two.

Imagine all the talk of the great Ben duo, Ben blocks the shots that starts the Gordon fast breaks.


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## UMfan83

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

I don't think that offense will be a HUGE problem, although it will be a small one. Think about how it will change the offense to have someone down low that can post up and actually handle the ball. I think it will take a lot of pressure off of the guards.


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## Damian Necronamous

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

This would propel the Bulls to being a top 3 team in the Eastern Conference, IMO.

As for Chandler, I'd love to see the Lakers offer Mihm and McKie for him because we are in desperate need of another inside defensive and rebounding presence (even though the thought of a Brown/Chandler frontcourt is hilarious).

If the Bulls do indeed offer Wallace the max, one would have to think that the Pistons won't be willing to match it.

PG: Kirk Hinrich...Chris Duhon
SG: Ben Gordon...Thabo Sefolasha
SF: Andres Nocioni...Luol Deng
PF: Tyrus Thomas...Michael Sweetney
C: Ben Wallace...Tyson Chandler/Chris Mihm

Man, that team has depth.


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## BG7

Also, I say we do a game where we hold onto the ball for nearly the entire 24 second clock, and dont' get many turnovers.

So if we say 75 possesions in a game against a team. Get 15 steals/turnovers, so thats 60 shots. Hold them to around .35 percent shooting in that game. 10 of those shots go to freethrows, and say they hit .70 from the line, so thats 14 points from the line plus about 35 points, which equals 49 points....well basically, we need to hold a team under 49 points to erase that embarassing record.


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## UMfan83

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Damian Necronamous said:


> This would propel the Bulls to being a top 3 team in the Eastern Conference, IMO.
> 
> As for Chandler, I'd love to see the Lakers offer Mihm and McKie for him because we are in desperate need of another inside defensive and rebounding presence (even though the thought of a Brown/Chandler frontcourt is hilarious).
> 
> If the Bulls do indeed offer Wallace the max, one would have to think that the Pistons won't be willing to match it.
> 
> PG: Kirk Hinrich...Chris Duhon
> SG: Ben Gordon...Thabo Sefolasha
> SF: Andres Nocioni...Luol Deng
> PF: Tyrus Thomas...Michael Sweetney
> C: Ben Wallace...Tyson Chandler/Chris Mihm
> 
> Man, that team has depth.


Looking at that rotation makes a weary Cubs fan have zest for sports again. And that's very hard to do


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## UMfan83

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Also, I say we do a game where we hold onto the ball for nearly the entire 24 second clock, and dont' get many turnovers.
> 
> So if we say 75 possesions in a game against a team. Get 15 steals/turnovers, so thats 60 shots. Hold them to around .35 percent shooting in that game. 10 of those shots go to freethrows, and say they hit .70 from the line, so thats 14 points from the line plus about 35 points, which equals 49 points....well basically, we need to hold a team under 49 points to erase that embarassing record.


I thought another team beat us with 48 points?

Edit: Whoops, nevermind


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## Sir Patchwork

sloth said:


> So if we say 75 possesions in a game against a team. Get 15 steals/turnovers, so thats 60 shots. Hold them to around .35 percent shooting in that game. 10 of those shots go to freethrows, and say they hit .70 from the line, so thats 14 points from the line plus about 35 points, which equals 49 points....well basically, we need to hold a team under 49 points to erase that embarassing record.


And we'll only win by single digits.


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



UMfan83 said:


> I thought another team beat us with 48 points?
> 
> Edit: Whoops, nevermind


Nope, how a team scores less than 50 in a game is beyond me.

I remember that game clearly, we played the Heat, and it was Ron Harper's first game back from injury, all the talk by Red Kerr about how it would breathe some life into the Bulls and make them competitive again by getting Harper back....boy was he wrong.


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## TripleDouble

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

I really hope this is not true.


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## WhoDaBest23

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> But then again, we offer Wallace big contract, he calls Dumars, Dumars won't pay that money. Wallace signs with us. Perfect example was Steve Nash signing with Phoenix. I think he'd prefer our team over Detroit, he wasn't happy there, and was complaining about the emphasis on offense. It will be all about defense here, and unlike Tyson, Ben does have an offensive game, its called the slam dunk, which he does effectively. With a veteran like Ben on the team, our team as a whole will be treated like more of a veteran team, just because of his presence, and we'll just get to the line more because of that, our team will get the respect of veterans on defense, and Tyson will no longer be called for some of those fouls anymore. Our defense improves, just by having Wallace here. If Wallace can prove to dunk the ball/bank it on offense, which he has looked like he could do in Detroit, so his lack of offense won't be like Tyson lack of offense this year. He's a good fit for our system, and his body won't break down within the next 5 years, have you guys seen the condition he keeps his body in? Kevin Willis shape....only better. He didn't look like he broke down over the playoffs, he looked like he didn't care to be on the team.


Good post sloth. I'd be ecstatic to have Big Ben on the Bulls.


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Let the party begin!

<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/pe/penguindance/images/animpequins.gif">


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## UMfan83

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Let the party begin!
> 
> <img src="http://www.angelfire.com/pe/penguindance/images/animpequins.gif">


Woo hoo, Angelfire party!


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## SausageKingofChicago

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Damian Necronamous said:


> This would propel the Bulls to being a top 3 team in the Eastern Conference, IMO.
> 
> As for Chandler, I'd love to see the Lakers offer Mihm and McKie for him because we are in desperate need of another inside defensive and rebounding presence (even though the thought of a Brown/Chandler frontcourt is hilarious).



Mihm and McKie are expiring contracts so Chicago would have to have some comfort in compensation of getting your 2007 1st round draft pick

And I would only do this deal if it was absolutely guaranteed that we had Ben Wallace locked up and if in turn Denver accepted Sweetney and Lakers 2007 1st round pick in a sign and trade for Nene . 

Denver gets a short term post player for Nene and a 2007 1st round pick and it helps them adddress their long term salary structure with the forthcoming max contract of Anthony and them being likely unable to move Martin 

Lakers get Chandler 

Bulls get Nene and Mihm 

*

Nene
Wallace
Deng
Gordon
Hinrich

bench

Mihm
Thomas
Nocioni
Sefolsha
Duhon

Allen 
Songaila
Kyrappa
McKie
Pargo

*

Wow. That's deep


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## Fizer Fanatic

I really hope Big Ben signs with us for Pax's kitchen sink. It would be the cheapest free-agent acqusition ever! Unfortunately, I think Big Ben will be insulted by Pax waking him up in the middle of the night with such a lowball offer. And I don't think Pax's kitchen sink would be a valid offer under the CBA. And Detroit will probably offer more.

Seriously, I just hope whatever we offer to Big Ben doesn't prohibit us from resigning any of the many talented guys we have on their rookie contracts. I'd vote for fewer years (maybe 3 tops) at something less than the max. I'm pretty confident that Pax will be taking our ability to re-sign rookie contract players into account when he makes offers to this year's free-agent crop. And if we do get Big Ben, I'd want to keep Tyson (and Tyrus) so they can both learn from him.


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## Bulls4Life

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Amareca said:


> Wallace prime is behind him, he was a liability with his FTs in this years playoffs.



And I heard on The Score 670 from Boers & Bernstein that Wallace wants to leave Detroit because he's unhappy with the lack of offensive opportunities there. Then B&B went on to joke that Pax could just lie to Wallace and tell him "Yeah, come here and we'll run our entire offense through you!" wink, wink. Then when he gets here don't let him touch the ball on offense. But the gist of what they were saying is Wallace feels he's better offensively than he's been given credit for and he wants a chance to show that "he got game" offensively.

That's bad!!!

:sour:


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Fizer Fanatic said:


> I really hope Big Ben signs with us for Pax's kitchen sink. It would be the cheapest free-agent acqusition ever! Unfortunately, I think Big Ben will be insulted by Pax waking him up in the middle of the night with such a lowball offer. And I don't think Pax's kitchen sink would be a valid offer under the CBA. And Detroit will probably offer more.
> 
> Seriously, I just hope whatever we offer to Big Ben doesn't prohibit us from resigning any of the many talented guys we have on their rookie contracts. I'd vote for fewer years (maybe 3 tops) at something less than the max. I'm pretty confident that Pax will be taking our ability to re-sign rookie contract players into account when he makes offers to this year's free-agent crop.


Well I heard that Paxson's kitchen sink is pure gold, platinum plated, incrested with diamonds everywhere with an est. worth of 75 million.

Maybe somthing like this

Gordon- 10 million
Kirk- 7 million
Deng- 8 million
Thabo- 6 million
Thomas- 10 million

So thats 4 years from now, and it'll

be with our core and Tyson

So that would be a total of 68 with our young core plus Wallace. So if the cap is about 55 million 4 years from now, so the luxury tax theshold should be around 70 million, so our core will be just under it. So we'd have to sign the rest of our players to pretty much minimums to avoid luxury tax, which shouldn't be a problem (maybe they raise the luxury tax threshold?). But then at the end of the season, Ben Wallace's big contract comes off, so we should be in good shape with the luxury tax, just one year we will be flirting with paying the luxury tax.


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## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Just sign him to a front loaded contract.


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## BG7

I was looking at the realgm board, this guy has a hearing problem. Apparently Paxson will offer the ENTIRE kitchen.


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## charlietyra

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



TripleDouble said:


> I really hope this is not true.



Me too! 

What people do not realize is that Ben is really a complementary player, albeit a very good one. If this team is going to break the bank for a FA it should be for a genuine star. Don't get me wrong, Ben is a good player. But the "defensive player of the year" could not stop Shaq even with the help of a double team on occasion. Those millions of bucks spent on a creaky 35-36 year old a few years down the road will keep this franchise down.

Rebounding and shot blocking are not going to be the Bulls problem. We already have a highly paid rebounder/shotblocker who contributes nothing on offense. We need to have a "go to" guy on offense. Someone like Paul Pierce or Kevin Garnett. Pay the big bucks for guys like them via a trade.


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



step said:


> Just sign him to a front loaded contract.


Thats a really good idea, we'll avoid luxury tax when the young guys come up then.


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## BullSoxChicagosFinest

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Imagine all the talk of the great Ben duo, Ben blocks the shots that starts the Gordon fast breaks.


And Tyson breaks a nail


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## rwj333

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

ugh ugh ugh ugh. I love Ben, but he's just leaving his prime and defense is our least pressing need. I think the most I could stomach is 4 years, 50 million. Anything more, and this is a horrible move. 

The only thing I like about this move is that we're showing a willingness to use our cap space. But why not use it on someone younger, like Nene or Wilcox?


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



rwj333 said:


> ugh ugh ugh ugh. I love Ben, but he's just leaving his prime and defense is our least pressing need. I think the most I could stomach is 4 years, 50 million. Anything more, and this is a horrible move.
> 
> The only thing I like about this move is that we're showing a willingness to use our cap space. But why not use it on someone younger, like Nene or Wilcox?


We have capspace, Ben Wallace is the best player in free agency, so were signing Ben Wallace. We'll have an allstar and everything, he's pretty popular around fans, we get the respect that comes with a veteran like Ben, as well as his skill. And we also screw over Detroit while doing it, whats the problem?


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## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> Thats a really good idea, we'll avoid luxury tax when the young guys come up then.


Exactamundo, I hope Paxson doesn't go too crazy, would like to see us add Butler aswell.


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## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> But why not use it on someone younger, like Nene or Wilcox?


Because they're largely as unproven as Tyrus is. Nene really hasn't done anything and is coming off a terrible injury and Wilcox the term contract year explains it all imo.
Committing money for them is just as risky.


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## rwj333

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> We have capspace, Ben Wallace is the best player in free agency, so were signing Ben Wallace. We'll have an allstar and everything, he's pretty popular around fans, we get the respect that comes with a veteran like Ben, as well as his skill. And we also screw over Detroit while doing it, whats the problem?


I don't think Ben Wallace is the best player in free agency. With few exceptions, once a person hits 32, their athletic skills decline pretty quickly. Ben Wallace is 32, so I'm guessing he has one more year of high level play left in him. He's also a poor fit, because he and Chandler are extremely similar players. 

Like I said, if we're willing to spend a lot of money on Ben Wallace, why not use that money on a younger guy instead?


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## theanimal23

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

I agree on a few points here. FRONT loaded contract, and lets get Butler too. Face it, we use the money now, or we never will. We might as well use it now. Players always get traded down the road. There is always one stupid GM waiting somewhere.


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## rwj333

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



step said:


> Because they're largely as unproven as Tyrus is. Nene really hasn't done anything and is coming off a terrible injury and Wilcox the term contract year explains it all imo.
> Committing money for them is just as risky.


It's just as risky with Ben, because he's older and will decline very quickly. I have confidence in Skiles to motivate a questionable player like Wilcox and Nene. But he can't magically make Wallace younger. Look at Shaq-- at 32, he was putting up 20 and 10. A year later and he's declined a great deal.


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## remlover

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Well free agency starts @ 11:01pm central time. Hopefully Pax will call Tellum and Big Ben and say, "Hey Ben, how about about 12-14 per year and actually be part of an offense in CHicago? 

I'm hoping its one of those amazing sales pitch where Ben makes a verbal in teh first day or so. 

We get Ben Wallace and we are competing for an NBA championship! Gone are the days where we are talking about making it to the 2nd round.

If we sign Wallace i'd hope we would trade Chandler for a package that contains Troy Murphy. With Tyrus and Ben we wouldnt be losing Chandler's defense too much and Troy would be a nice offensive compliment to those guys.


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## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



rwj333 said:


> It's just as risky with Ben, because he's older and will decline very quickly. I have confidence in Skiles to motivate a questionable player like Wilcox and Nene. But he can't magically make Wallace younger. Look at Shaq-- at 32, he was putting up 20 and 10. A year later and he's declined a great deal.


But once again, Ben Wallace has a better body than anyone in the league, Shaq is overweight.


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## rwj333

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> But once again, Ben Wallace has a better body than anyone in the league, Shaq is overweight.


Yes, but Shaq is a 7 foot physical freak, and he lost 40 pounds during the season, making him a reasonable weight. A decline after 32 has happened to almost every big man in the history of the league.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Poster pmac on the nba general board is reporting that Ben Wallace has just bought a house in Chicago. Whether this is legit or not I'm still trying to find out.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



rwj333 said:


> Yes, but Shaq is a 7 foot physical freak, and he lost 40 pounds during the season, making him a reasonable weight. A decline after 32 has happened to almost every big man in the history of the league.


Shaq's been overweight pretty much his entire career though, so his body was breaking down because of that extra weight. Ben Wallace is in perfect shape, so it'll be different than most other players in the league.


----------



## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> If we sign Wallace i'd hope we would trade Chandler for a package that contains Troy Murphy. With Tyrus and Ben we wouldnt be losing Chandler's defense too much and Troy would be a nice offensive compliment to those guys.


Just say no to Murphy.

Heck if you really wanted to get rid of Chandler, pawn him off the New Orleans for PJ Brown. I wouldn't want to, I can see Chandler returning to similar form that earnt his contract, Wallace is the big man that allows Chandler to roam on the defensive end. Offensive production between the two might not be appealing, but more shots for the others.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



step said:


> Just say no to Murphy.
> 
> Heck if you really wanted to get rid of Chandler, pawn him off the New Orleans for PJ Brown. I wouldn't want to, I can see Chandler returning to similar form that earnt his contract, Wallace is the big man that allows Chandler to roam on the defensive end. Offensive production between the two might not be appealing, but more shots for the others.


Yeah, I like to hear that Chandler's working out at the berto center already, if he works out, I think he'll be fine. Its not like he was an offensive player who was a big liability prior to this past season, and Wallace can dunk/bank, so if we find them open, they both will probaly get the ball in the hole. 

I don't think we need to make a trade. We will have a very good team, and this isn't even taking into account the improvement of sophomore sensation Eddie Basden.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

If this means we're getting rid of Chandler then I'm against it. We wont be ready to compete for a title for another two or three years... and three years from now Tyson Chandler will be better than Ben Wallace. 


Also... 7 footers are hard to come by... I'd rather hang on to Chandler than sign a Pryzbilla or Nene...


----------



## Amareca

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



remlover said:


> We get Ben Wallace and we are competing for an NBA championship! Gone are the days where we are talking about making it to the 2nd round.
> 
> .


You must be kidding.

The Bulls without Ben Wallace are better than the Pistons without Wallace? No they aren't.

Lets imagine a healthy Suns team vs a healthy Bulls team plus Wallace in the 2007 finals, it would be a massacre. It would be a massacre against the Mavs as well but you might actually match up good enough with San Antonio to put up at least close games.

Contending? No. ECF maybe but I would still take Cleveland and Miami over them and put Detroit, New Jersey and a healthy Indiana team on the same level.


----------



## remlover

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

We need to stop thinking of setting ourselves up to win down the road. This is our chance to go for it now and set ourselves for the future. YOu bring in Ben Wallace, he gets you to the elite level. Pryzbilla, Nene, or Wilcox DO NOT Do those things.

YOu trade Chandler and get something decent in return. I like Murphy because he is a perfect Ying to the Bulls Yang (or visa versa haha). 

We bring in Ben and he gives us all his effort and more and when he starts to diminish you see Tyrus thomas emerging as an absolute stud. We need some variety down in the post and that is why i want CHandler gone (this even if we sign Pryz and no big ben). All this being said, i dont advocate trading Chandler for nothing. It has to be something that works and fits for our ballclub.


----------



## UMfan83

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Poster pmac on the nba general board is reporting that Ben Wallace has just bought a house in Chicago. Whether this is legit or not I'm still trying to find out.


And as I said in that thread, there is no one dumb enough to buy a house in a city that has yet to offer him a contract


----------



## remlover

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Amareca said:


> You must be kidding.
> 
> The Bulls without Ben Wallace are better than the Pistons without Wallace? No they aren't.
> 
> Lets imagine a healthy Suns team vs a healthy Bulls team plus Wallace in the 2007 finals, it would be a massacre. It would be a massacre against the Mavs as well but you might actually match up good enough with San Antonio to put up at least close games.
> 
> Contending? No. ECF maybe but I would still take Cleveland and Miami over them and put Detroit, New Jersey and a healthy Indiana team on the same level.


I don't agree with yoru massacre claim. A team with Wallace, Tyrus, Ben, Luol, Nocioni, Kirk would not be run out of the building from any team. Don't forget the Bulls can play defense and buckle down on teams. 

Mind you saying i am not saying they are going to win a Championship, but this puts them in the argument of a team that can do that.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

http://info.detnews.com/pistons/lettersindex.cfm?topic=Keeping_Ben&forum=pistons

Word on the street of Wallace buying a house in Chicago.

And yes, you try to win now. We have the young prospects in place, and they are good enough to compete now. If all things go well, we'll probaly add another good young prospect anyhow, so we are setup for the future, but we also have young guys that produce, so we could win it all now.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Ben Wallace's numbers have been getting worse every year since 2003
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wallabe01.html


----------



## T.Shock

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Okay I was driving home from WGN and I was listening to ESPN1000. Carmen and the other guy said that Paxson was NOT, I repeat NOT offering the kitchen sink for Wallace. His exact words were don't expect Paxson to offer the max to Wallace right away. He repeatedly said that Paxson was interested along with 12 other teams and that he would be placing a call to him at midnight, that's all. They even played a segment from Ric Bucher the other night where he said he fervently believes that the Bulls will not make a heavy offer to Ben Wallace. Don't know where the poster got this from, but I just heard it literally two hours ago.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Dornado said:


> Ben Wallace's numbers have been getting worse every year since 2003
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wallabe01.html


They're pretty consistent, he just had some freak seasons, his number since 2003 are really good.


----------



## StackAttack

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Wow...this offseason...has become one of the more entertaining...

I'm shocked, frankly, all the draft trades, the just announced CV-TJ Ford trade, the extreme likelihood of this, the Knicks screwing up over and over and over again...I'm almost not missing watching the Mavs every other night


----------



## remlover

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

I heard it before 8pm and Silvy said something along the lines of an ESPN source with connects to the Bulls ( or a Bulls inside source, forget the exact wording) said...."The Bulls will throw the kitchen sink at Ben Wallace. He is their top priority."


----------



## T.Shock

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



remlover said:


> I heard it before 8pm and Silvy said something along the lines of an ESPN source with connects to the Bulls ( or a Bulls inside source, forget the exact wording) said...."The Bulls will throw the kitchen sink at Ben Wallace. He is their top priority."


Haha. I started listening at around 830 or so. Well one of us is gonna be right. No problemo just reporting what I heard.


----------



## TiMVP2

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Thats different, Ben Gordon is big ben because he is from London.
> 
> Ben Wallace is big ben because he is big, and his name is ben.
> 
> You hardly can confuse the two.
> 
> Imagine all the talk of the great Ben duo, Ben blocks the shots that starts the Gordon fast breaks.



ben gordon's from london!?!?

why the hell did i like taht guy....


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

We better not start throwing kitchen sinks around, we saw what a cup made Ron Artest do.


----------



## remlover

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



T.Shock said:


> Haha. I started listening at around 830 or so. Well one of us is gonna be right. No problemo just reporting what I heard.


Not a problem T Shock. I cut and pasted this over from a RealGm poster who heard the same thign...

Danielmus
"I apologize if this was posted already but I just got home. On the radio (ESPN1000), I forget what show it was, but they said that their source in the Bulls orginazation said the Bulls will go out and to quote what they said the source told them "Offer the kitchen to Wallace". They still didn't get into to talkiong about it and they wanted to so it might be on now."

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=535222&start=60
--------

I got home before 830 from Chicago so i missed that added info that you heard. Needless to say Free Agency will be exciting!


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

I'm listening to the Score right now, and they say if you live close to Wrigley/Comiskey, if you have the Cubs game on, and Jim Thome/Derek Lee hits a homerun, you can mute the tv and hear the fireworks.


----------



## DaBullz4Sho

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

ALRIGHT this has absolutely nothing to do with this thread , but there are a lot of people viewing it so this is the best chance for me to get an answer.......


HOW DO I USE A CUSTOM AVATAR??? not one of the ones from here, one of my own


----------



## Thankszeke

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

He'd only count against the cap for 4 years because of the 36 & over rule. We'd average out his 5th year onto each year of the contract and year 5 would be a 0$ cap hit. Really really works out perfectly. We might just avoid the lux tax if all goes perfect.


----------



## rwj333

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Thankszeke said:


> He'd only count against the cap for 4 years because of the 36 & over rule. We'd average out his 5th year onto each year of the contract and year 5 would be a 0$ cap hit. Really really works out perfectly. We might just avoid the lux tax if all goes perfect.


Nice point! I totally forgot about that rule.


----------



## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> HOW DO I USE A CUSTOM AVATAR??? not one of the ones from here, one of my own


Subscribe


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



DaBullz4Sho said:


> ALRIGHT this has absolutely nothing to do with this thread , but there are a lot of people viewing it so this is the best chance for me to get an answer.......
> 
> 
> HOW DO I USE A CUSTOM AVATAR??? not one of the ones from here, one of my own


you have to be a supporting member.

click the "support bbb.net" link at the top.


----------



## DaBullz4Sho

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

thanks for the help


----------



## Cyanobacteria

ABSOLUTELY throw the kitchen sink at Wallace! He can play our weakest position, he moves Tyson to the roamer, and most importantly... we put a gaping whole of one of the few teams in front of us in the East! I'll drive across the country, throw the sink in my truck, and deliver it myself!

Who cares about free throws? We'd be deep enough to take Wallace out for stretches, which Detroit wasn't.

From the sound of these posts, you'd think the posters were paying the luxury tax.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Hmm, say there is 1.1 million Bulls fans. If we each give 20 dollars, thats 22 million dollars, we dump it off on Reindsorf's porch......


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

On Sporting News radio, they're comparing Ben Wallace with Detroit to Terrell Owen's relationship with Philly.


----------



## Bulls4Life

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



T.Shock said:


> Haha. I started listening at around 830 or so. Well one of us is gonna be right. No problemo just reporting what I heard.



I was listening at home and early on they said their source told them the "kitchen sink" scenario. Then later in the broadcast the announcers stated that they themselves didn't think Pax would offer the sink, but would be talking to Big Ben at 12:01. 

Another poster stated that it's really 11:01 Chicago time so they screwed up on that 1.

:laugh:

BTW. it's 11:23PM Chicago time now! Any word yet????
:whoknows:


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

*BREAKING NEWS!*

I just heard on Sporting News Radio that Ben Wallace is in the hospital.


----------



## Bulls4Life

One of the announcers(sorry I don't know their names, I don't normally listen at that time of day) said "Why pay 9 million for Joel Pryzbilla when you could get Wallace for 12 million?" That's because he thought the max was 12 million. Then his partner told him that the max for next season is 15 million!!


2 questions:

Is it really gonna take 9 mil to get a guy like Pryz?

&

Is Wallace looking for 15 mil/year?


If the answer is yes to either question, I'm no longer interested in that player!
:nonono:


----------



## Bulls4Life

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> *BREAKING NEWS!*
> 
> I just heard on Sporting News Radio that Ben Wallace is in the hospital.


 :jawdrop:


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Bulls4Life said:


> :jawdrop:


Paxson threw a kitchen sink at him, he's in critical condition.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

You'd think we already have a verbal agreement with Wallace by listening to Sporting News Radio.


----------



## Bulls4Life

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Paxson threw a kitchen sink at him, he's in critical condition.






I started listening to Sporting News Radio trying to find out what happened!!!!!














:laugh:


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

*ben wallace will meet with the bulls saturday in chicago. sporting news just reporting this via mlive.com website.

*



> Two NBA officials confirmed Friday night that Detroit center Ben Wallace, considered by most to be the top free agent available this summer, is scheduled to meet with the Chicago Bulls in Chicago today. Teams can begin negotiating with free agents today, but they can not sign players to contracts until July 12.
> 
> The Bulls are one of the few teams that will have enough salary cap space to sign Wallace, who as an unrestricted free agent can sign with any team he wants.
> 
> While all indications have been that Wallace would re-sign with Detroit, several league officials contacted on Friday said that they're not surprised that the 31-year-old Wallace will consider all his options.




http://www.mlive.com/sports/statewide/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/1143564006297030.xml&coll=1


----------



## yodurk

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



mizenkay said:


> *ben wallace will meet with the bulls saturday in chicago. sporting news just reporting this via some michigan website.
> 
> *


This is what I like to see. Make our pitch, but don't let him use us to drive up his value.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

from the mlive.com story:


_Another factor in negotiations is Wallace's new agent, Arn Tellem, who represents some of the NBA's top players like Los Angeles Lakers' guard Kobe Bryant, Houston's Tracy McGrady, and Indiana's Jermaine O'Neal.

Tellem was instrumental in convincing the Bulls this past season to release one of his clients, Tim Thomas, in time for Thomas to be eligible for the playoffs. Thomas signed with the Phoenix Suns, and was a key performer in helping Phoenix advance to the Western Conference finals.

That relationship, coupled with the Bulls likely to have $15-17 million available to offer Wallace, might be enough to entice the five-time All-star to leave a Pistons team that's expected to offer him a contract in that's expected to start in the $12-14 million range._



well, well, well....


----------



## The ROY

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> If the Pistons were to pursue a sign-and-trade with the Bulls, they would probably ask for the deal to include Tyson Chandler who, like Wallace, is a defensive-minded shot blocking center.


I'd do it...it would allow us to throw more money at another FA....we'd be awfully short tho


----------



## Showtyme

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



The ROY said:


> I'd do it...it would allow us to throw more money at another FA....we'd be awfully short tho


I wouldn't do it. Tyson is going to have a big year next year... he may never reach his supposed KG-like potential, but playing WITH a guy like Ben Wallace would make him all the more fierce, and would give us a good feeling about Big Ben's disgusting contract three years down the line when Tyson is reaping the benefits of having a mentor like him around. Even without Ben, Tyson can be an 8/10/2 guy as of next season if he could just get in shape and stay in games.

I'm all for trying to make it work with Ben, but it would really a magic trick if we could sign him for something way less than the rest of the market. I think the strategy here might be to make him a reasonable offer, something like a contract starting around $9 million, and then stand by it as the FA season marches forward. He might not get the suitors that he thinks he will, and when he looks back at a bunch of just so-so offers, he'll remember only two teams: the Pistons, that can still pay him more than everyone else, and the Bulls, who were the very first team to initiate.

Otherwise, we can keep doing what we're doing, sign Przy to give us a ridiculous shot-blocker (not great in other aspects of the game though), and grow TT and TC into the future frontcourt of this franchise. The fact that TT's going to be groomed as a full-time PF means that if we're looking at a big man FA, we should either keep the contract to the 3 or 4 year range (so as to take into account the long-term future of our young talents), or look for a big that can provide serious offense (so as to provide something that we DON'T already have).


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Why trade Chandler if we get Ben? Tyson, Tyrus, and Ben in the paint, wow, talk about good inside anchors. That would be one of the most emotional frontcourts too, Ben and Tyrus yelling, Tyson kicking people.


----------



## SALO

Wow. I'm VERY surprised by this. I didn't think Pax would go after him the very first day. The fact Ben decided to visit us immediately has me intrigued. 

If we could manage to swap Sweetney for him in a S&T, we could also have enough cap room to get another decent free agent. Butler? Nazr?


----------



## The ROY

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



SALO said:


> Wow. I'm VERY surprised by this. I didn't think Pax would go after him the very first day. The fact Ben decided to visit us immediately has me intrigued.
> 
> If we could manage to swap Sweetney for him in a S&T, we could also have enough cap room to get another decent free agent. Butler? Nazr?


I'm sure we'd have to give up atleast Chandler...sweetney makes nowhere near what Chandler does


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Showtyme said:


> I wouldn't do it. Tyson is going to have a big year next year... he may never reach his supposed KG-like potential, but playing WITH a guy like Ben Wallace would make him all the more fierce, and would give us a good feeling about Big Ben's disgusting contract three years down the line when Tyson is reaping the benefits of having a mentor like him around. Even without Ben, Tyson can be an 8/10/2 guy as of next season if he could just get in shape and stay in games.
> 
> I'm all for trying to make it work with Ben, but it would really a magic trick if we could sign him for something way less than the rest of the market. I think the strategy here might be to make him a reasonable offer, something like a contract starting around $9 million, and then stand by it as the FA season marches forward. He might not get the suitors that he thinks he will, and when he looks back at a bunch of just so-so offers, he'll remember only two teams: the Pistons, that can still pay him more than everyone else, and the Bulls, who were the very first team to initiate.
> 
> Otherwise, we can keep doing what we're doing, sign Przy to give us a ridiculous shot-blocker (not great in other aspects of the game though), and grow TT and TC into the future frontcourt of this franchise. The fact that TT's going to be groomed as a full-time PF means that if we're looking at a big man FA, we should either keep the contract to the 3 or 4 year range (so as to take into account the long-term future of our young talents), or look for a big that can provide serious offense (so as to provide something that we DON'T already have).


I agree. Who in FA will be better than Chandler? Maybe Nene.


----------



## Showtyme

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Say we make the trade, then ALSO get Przy. Why not? We'd have the cap space.

Tyrus Thomas is the budding star, Przy is the grizzly swatter, and Big Ben is the godfather of the frontcourt.

We'd be set for years.

I do have to say that Tyson is a committed Bull and has generally been playing his heart out for this franchise. He's the only player on the roster today that remembers what it's like to lose around 170 games in three seasons, the only guy to remember the Jalen Rose era. That's an identity that we don't necessarily want to just jettison so easily... a guy that remembers where we come from will be the hungriest when he sees we're headed somewhere good.


----------



## Seed

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

This is a pretty bad offensive frontline, you'll be entirely dependent on your back court to score for you.


----------



## T.Shock

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Let's say we go after Ben Wallace and sign him. Could we...(voice of the one Bob from Office Space) and believe me this a hypothetical...maybe go after Jermaine O'Neal. I know a lot of you are down on him, but I think with what we'd have to give up in a trade we could easily make up for with the amount of depth we've accumulated. We'd be incredibly dangerous now, but I would be worried about our future. Let's say it took Hinrich, Chandler, Sweets, and the 1st Round Pick in '07. That would give us...

PG-Gordon
SG-Thabo
SF-Nocioni
PF-JO
C-Ben Wallace

Duhon(PG)
Deng(SG/SF)
Tyrus Thomas(PF)

EDIT: Nevermind, it is a stupid idea. We'd go way into luxury tax land in an effort to extend Gordon, Deng and re-sign Nocioni.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

I think Hinrich and Chandler would be enough to land JO, and I don't think I'd want to give up both for JO.

Reports are that Detroit will only give him 4 years at most, starting at around 12 million.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

MARK STEIN :



> • In its quest to re-sign Ben Wallace, Detroit is deeply concerned about only one team: Chicago. The Bulls are believed to be the only club of the five out there with salary-cap room that Wallace would consider. And with a rich six-year offer, Chicago might have a real shot at stealing him away. The Pistons, by all accounts, are reluctant to offer Wallace anything longer than a four-year deal, albeit with a starting salary that exceeds $11.5 million to make Big Ben their highest-paid player based on annual wage.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Seed said:


> This is a pretty bad offensive frontline, you'll be entirely dependent on your back court to score for you.


Possibly, but maybe not.

If we sign Ben Wallace and then go into next season with the roster at hand, I don't think I've EVER seen such a uniquely assembled team. What's the end result if we have 3 amazing defenders/rebounders/shotblockers manning the interior, even if they don't have much skill offensively? Obviously opponents are going to be crapping their pants if they get within 5 feet of the hoop. But is it really enough to compensate for lack of scoring? It's a tough question...I know many folks here have their opinion, but honestly I have no idea what the answer is. That's why I'm constantly flipping back and forth on the Ben Wallace signing strategy. I guess worst case scenario is that we can always trade somebody to fill other needs.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Tyrus will be a far better scorer than folks give him credit for.

EASILY a better scorer than Wallace & Chandler combined. He has low post moves, can take you off the dribble and can post you up.

Thomas = The Future Of The Bulls


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Like imagine, winning the championship, and then going to the draft, getting Greg Oden. That would just be amazing! God, make it happen, make it happen! If we win it all and get Oden, I think thats grounds for just shutting down the Knicks organization.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

We'll get atleast a top 10 pick in a loaded draft.

Then when Wallace game starts to decline, that kid can pick up the slack and lead with Tyrus.


----------



## The 6ft Hurdle

Sco-ttie Pi-ppen. The 2nd time around that is.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



The 6ft Hurdle said:


> Sco-ttie Pi-ppen. The 2nd time around that is.


No, nothing like it. That'd be signing Kukoc to a big contract.


----------



## T.Shock

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Also let's say we grab Wallace with something in the range of 4 years/60 million. A lot I know. This is what our salary structure would look like...

*2006-2007* 
Ben Wallace(13 million)(???)(what would be the sliding scale here)
Tyson Chandler(9.655 million)
Ben Gordon(3.862 mil)
Tyrus Thomas(3.2 mil)
Kirk Hinrich(3.064 mil)
Andres Nocioni(3.030 mil)
Chris Duhon(3.024 mil)
Mike Sweetney(2.696 mil)
Luol Deng(2.614 mil)
Malik Allen(2.1 mil)(???)
Thabo Sefolosha(1.7 mil)
Viktor Khryapa(1.172 mil)

Total: 49.117 million dollars
(this is obviously a rough estimate, these numbers were taken from hoopshype, but I don't know the exact figures on what Wallace would be, Chandler's deal, Thomas and Sefolosha, and Malik Allen, but I know its pretty close)

That is 49 million dollars for 12 players. We couldn't afford anything than a mid-level guy to stay under the cap and we would be able to fill in our roster with two minimum players and we'd still have some room left over under the cap I believe. 

_Guards_ 
Kirk Hinrich
Ben Gordon
Chris Duhon
Thabo Sefolosha

_Wings_ 
Luol Deng
Andres Nocioni
Viktor Khryapa

_Post Players_ 
Ben Wallace
Tyson Chandler
Tyrus Thomas
Michael Sweetney
Malik Allen

I'd say we should keep Basden around (NOT PARGO) and maybe Schnescher just to add the right level of goofiness to the squad.


----------



## T.Shock

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



The ROY said:


> We'll get atleast a top 10 pick in a loaded draft.
> 
> Then when Wallace game starts to decline, that kid can pick up the slack and lead with Tyrus.


Jesus wouldn't that be amazing. See my post above, but IMO we could sign Wallace for 5 years/75 million and still have enough left over to extend two of Hinrich, Gordon, or Deng and re-sign Nocioni IMO.


----------



## Salvaged Ship

One thing to consider as well. Getting Wallace not only stregthens our team, it also takes one of the top two teams in the conference and seriously hurts them. When I look at the rosters, if we get Wallace for nothing we may pass them in the conference. Add everything we have on the roster, and barring injury this team could contend in the East this season or next if all goes well. Let's see if it happens, but I still think Wallace will stay in Detroit.

Kudos to Pax for the pursuit, and we will see!


----------



## The ROY

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

We all thought Nash would stay in Dallas with his best friends, he left. I think their's a chance we can land him.

We definintely pass Detriot with the additions of Thabo, Thomas & Wallace IMO.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



T.Shock said:


> Jesus wouldn't that be amazing. See my post above, but IMO we could sign Wallace for 5 years/75 million and still have enough left over to extend two of Hinrich, Gordon, or Deng and re-sign Nocioni IMO.


When were in the last year of Ben's contract, it'll probaly look something like this.

Ben: 17 million
Tyson: 12 million (maybe less because its incentive based)
Ben: 10 million
Kirk 8 million 
Deng: 9 million
Nocioni:7 million
Tyrus: 10 million
Thabo: 6 million
Oden: 4 million

So thats a total of: 83 million that Jerry has to pay out. But with the 36 and over rule, its just 66, so we'll avoid the luxury tax. So then Oden signs his 12.5 max deal the next year, so Jerry would be paying out 74.5 about in contracts, and would hit luxury tax land that year. I still say one player would go long term, and I think its Deng.


----------



## The 6ft Hurdle

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



T.Shock said:


> Also let's say we grab Wallace with something in the range of 4 years/60 million. A lot I know. This is what our salary structure would look like...
> 
> *2006-2007*
> Ben Wallace(13 million)(???)(what would be the sliding scale here)
> Tyson Chandler(9.655 million)
> Ben Gordon(3.862 mil)
> Tyrus Thomas(3.2 mil)
> Kirk Hinrich(3.064 mil)
> Andres Nocioni(3.030 mil)
> Chris Duhon(3.024 mil)
> Mike Sweetney(2.696 mil)
> Luol Deng(2.614 mil)
> Malik Allen(2.1 mil)(???)
> Thabo Sefolosha(1.7 mil)
> Viktor Khryapa(1.172 mil)
> 
> Total: 49.117 million dollars
> (this is obviously a rough estimate, these numbers were taken from hoopshype, but I don't know the exact figures on what Wallace would be, Chandler's deal, Thomas and Sefolosha, and Malik Allen, but I know its pretty close)
> 
> That is 49 million dollars for 12 players. We couldn't afford anything than a mid-level guy to stay under the cap and we would be able to fill in our roster with two minimum players and we'd still have some room left over under the cap I believe.
> 
> _Guards_
> Kirk Hinrich
> Ben Gordon
> Chris Duhon
> Thabo Sefolosha
> 
> _Wings_
> Luol Deng
> Andres Nocioni
> Viktor Khryapa
> 
> _Post Players_
> Ben Wallace
> Tyson Chandler
> Tyrus Thomas
> Michael Sweetney
> Malik Allen
> 
> I'd say we should keep Basden around (NOT PARGO) and maybe Schnescher just to add the right level of goofiness to the squad.


That seriously makes getting Pryz look like a baragain. 21 million bucks tied up in barely 10 points a game combined. 

Doesn't look like were getting our low post option any time soon and the burden is placed squarely on the backcourt. I mean I wanted Ben to get the ball a lot more, but I wish he'd a gotten a little more help than what I see are a bunch of project players who don't really have any niches on offense.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



The 6ft Hurdle said:


> That seriously makes getting Pryz look like a baragain. 21 million bucks tied up in barely 10 points a game combined.
> 
> Doesn't look like were getting our low post option any time soon and the burden is placed squarely on the backcourt. I mean I wanted Ben to get the ball a lot more, but I wish he'd a gotten a little more help than what I see are a bunch of project players who don't really have any niches on offense.


Sorry, newsflash, Pryzbilla sucks, he'll probaly miss half the season anyhow.


----------



## SALO

Salvaged Ship said:


> One thing to consider as well. Getting Wallace not only stregthens our team, it also takes one of the top two teams in the conference and seriously hurts them. When I look at the rosters, *if we get Wallace for nothing we may pass them in the conference*. Add everything we have on the roster, and barring injury this team could contend in the East this season or next if all goes well. Let's see if it happens, but I still think Wallace will stay in Detroit.
> 
> Kudos to Pax for the pursuit, and we will see!


Man, if we got Wallace without giving up Chandler, we WILL be better than Detroit next year. I don't have any doubts about that. Plus, I think Pax would still have a couple more moves up his sleeve too.

Kool-Aid time baby! I'm getting drunk with it! 

:cheers:


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Salvaged Ship said:


> One thing to consider as well. Getting Wallace not only stregthens our team, it also takes one of the top two teams in the conference and seriously hurts them.


I agree. I don't think Miami is there to stay mainly because a lot of their team was really old. Shaquille is declining every year and who knows about Alonzo and Payton. The Pistons take a huge hit without Ben Wallace. 

Then you have us and the Cavs. 

I really think with Ben Wallace, the Bulls can win the east. Beating the top team out west will be a different story, but a finals appearance would make all of this worth it, especially for such a young team, and also a great opportunity at a high draft pick in next year's stacked draft.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I agree. I don't think Miami is there to stay mainly because a lot of their team was really old. Shaquille is declining every year and who knows about Alonzo and Payton. The Pistons take a huge hit without Ben Wallace.
> 
> Then you have us and the Cavs.
> 
> I really think with Ben Wallace, the Bulls can win the east. Beating the top team out west will be a different story, but a finals appearance would make all of this worth it, especially for such a young team, and also a great opportunity at a high draft pick in next year's stacked draft.


After reading your post,

I think you might be on to something

I don't think Bron's supporting cast is good enough to take out that deep, young, defensive team.

Miami & Cleveland are the only real competition for us right now. In the future, Orlando WILL be though.


----------



## Bulls4Life

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



The 6ft Hurdle said:


> That seriously makes getting Pryz look like a baragain. 21 million bucks tied up in barely 10 points a game combined.
> 
> Doesn't look like were getting our low post option any time soon and the burden is placed squarely on the backcourt. I mean I wanted Ben to get the ball a lot more, but I wish he'd a gotten a little more help than what I see are a bunch of project players who don't really have any niches on offense.


The backcourt players can shoot with ease knowing that Ty-Ben-Ty are up front to snag any misses!!!!!


:drool:


----------



## BullSoxChicagosFinest

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

This is kind of weird but I had completely forgotten that Sweetney was on our roster. Wow, last year feels like ages ago, when does summer league start? :biggrin:


----------



## BullSoxChicagosFinest

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Hmm, say there is 1.1 million Bulls fans. If we each give 20 dollars, thats 22 million dollars, we dump it off on Reindsorf's porch......


Chump change for the peeps with season tickets


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



The ROY said:


> Miami & Cleveland are the only real competition for us right now. In the future, Orlando WILL be though.


It helps that we have Kirk Hinrich, who guards Dwyane Wade better than anyone in the league, backed up by some freakishly long and athletic help defenders. 

LeBron is a little more tricky because he has made Nocioni and Deng look foolish at times, but with Thomas also in the mix, and if we sign Wallace, we'll have ridiculous help defense and a lot of good defenders to throw at LeBron and give him different looks. Plus, his cast isn't nearly as good as Wade's cast. 

The signing of Wallace really puts the Bulls in a serious position.


----------



## cima

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

We have to throw our money at Ben Wallace. We have the Knicks pick next year and that draft is LOADED with big men, and we are likely to be selecting in the top 5-10. Whoever we draft can eventually replace Ben when he starts to decline, and getting Ben almost guarantees us an NBA finals appearance. So I say go for it, it will pay off big time. We make ourselves better and we make Detroit worse. It's win-win.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

News flash to you guys drinking the cool aid out there. We were WHAT SEED last year in the playoffs. It sure as hell wasn't the 3rd. So to say that Cleveland and Miami are the only competition is a joke. 

As for competing against those 2, I seriously think that if we kept Chandler and put him at PF, got Big Ben to play C, we would be the best team in the East. We were really only missing a Center last year, cause Chandler is less than half as effective at C as he is PF. The most important thing though is we have a star that would get the benefit of the call sometimes playing against pukes like Lebron and Wade. It would help a lot having a guy to patrol the lane who might actually get some calls in his favor. More important than you'd think. We wouldn't have a lot of scoring out there, but all you gotta do is score more than the other team :cheers:


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



DaBabyBullz said:


> News flash to you guys drinking the cool aid out there. We were WHAT SEED last year in the playoffs. It sure as hell wasn't the 3rd. So to say that Cleveland and Miami are the only competition is a joke.
> 
> As for competing against those 2, I seriously think that if we kept Chandler and put him at PF, got Big Ben to play C, we would be the best team in the East. We were really only missing a Center last year, cause Chandler is less than half as effective at C as he is PF. The most important thing though is we have a star that would get the benefit of the call sometimes playing against pukes like Lebron and Wade. It would help a lot having a guy to patrol the lane who might actually get some calls in his favor. More important than you'd think. We wouldn't have a lot of scoring out there, but all you gotta do is score more than the other team :cheers:


?? Yeah, but we get Ty Thomas, Thabo, and Big Ben, we leapfrog probaly everyone in terms of regular season record, and then it'd come down to us, Cleveland, and Miami come playoff time, I'm sorry, but a Pistons team with Rip, Billups, Sheed, and Prince really doesn't scare me much, they're missing their enforcer. I hate to admit it, but Cleveland drafted good, and got the right role players to help them in the playoffs.


----------



## Bulls4Life

DaBabyBullz said:


> News flash to you guys drinking the cool aid out there. We were WHAT SEED last year in the playoffs. It sure as hell wasn't the 3rd. So to say that Cleveland and Miami are the only competition is a joke.


We were the only team to give Miami a tough time (other than Dallas) and that was with an undersized squad with no star power!!!!!

Now we have more length, athleticism and BW provides the star power that officials respect!! That would make the Bulls the 2nd or 3rd best team in the east, minimum.

And that's before our draft picks get some seasoning!!!!! By the time we get to the playoffs.....


UNSTOPPABLE!

:bsmile:


----------



## BG7

If Reindsorf wants to please the fanbase, he'll have no problem signing Big Ben. Nearly every Bulls fan that doesn't look at a message board and doesn't analyze cap wants him, he is a recognizable name that people think is good.....the majority of posters who overanalyze the cap are greenlighting the deal, Paxson is greenlighting the deal, which means Reidsorf is greenlighting the deal! I think that White Sox world series got him back in the winning mood.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

I never said that we wouldn't have a legit shot at winning the East with Big Ben (if we keep Chandler). I simply stated the FACT that there would be more competition than just those 2 teams. We wouldn't immediately be the 96 Bulls that won 72 games and just dominated all year. We'd be a very good team, that would be able to beat anyone on any given night, but still have to play good to win against everyone. No competition means we'd just steam roll all eastern conference teams but those 2, and that's simply not the case.


----------



## Bulls4Life

DaBabyBullz said:


> I never said that we wouldn't have a legit shot at winning the East with Big Ben (if we keep Chandler). I simply stated the FACT that there would be more competition than just those 2 teams. We wouldn't immediately be the 96 Bulls that won 72 games and just dominated all year. We'd be a very good team, that would be able to beat anyone on any given night, but still have to play good to win against everyone. No competition means we'd just steam roll all eastern conference teams but those 2, and that's simply not the case.


Yeah, we STEAMROLL 'em, baby!!

:woot:


----------



## Bulls4Life

*A Twist...*

From Chicagosports.com:



> Przybilla ranks high on the Bulls' wish list. The Blazers want to re-sign Przybilla but can offer him only the midlevel exception of about $5 million because they are above the salary cap.
> 
> The Bulls are in a position to offer much more.
> 
> Przybilla, 26, told the Oregonian he is looking for security but is torn about the possibility of leaving the Blazers.
> 
> "In sports, nothing is certain, and this could be my one shot to make as much money as I can," Przybilla told the newspaper. "I'm not getting any younger."
> 
> He also said he wants to play for a winning team. The Blazers went 21-61 last season but hope to sell Przybilla on their plans to rebuild. They acquired LaMarcus Aldridge and Brandon Roy in Wednesday's draft and traded center Theo Ratliff and point guard Sebastian Telfair.
> 
> Ratliff's departure makes the re-signing of Przybilla critical for the Blazers.
> 
> Przybilla is popular because of his work ethic and size. The Bulls also could use his leadership. He was a Blazers co-captain.
> 
> The Bulls are expected to be a front-runner for Przybilla, who averaged six points, seven rebounds and 2.32 blocks per game in his sixth season. Chicago's proximity to Przybilla's Milwaukee home should be a plus for the Bulls.



Pax can't sign both, so which will it be??????


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Bulls4Life said:


> *A Twist...*
> 
> From Chicagosports.com:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pax can't sign both, so which will it be??????


Better be Wallace, because Pryzbilla isn't that good, and is injury prone.

While Wallace is the best defensive player in the league, and a workout warrior that's in tip top shape.


----------



## garnett

I think if we sign Wallace we're going to have to keep Chandler, seeing that Chandler's going to have to play the first 10 minutes of the fourth quarter when the opposition goes to hack-a-Ben.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



garnett said:


> I think if we sign Wallace we're going to have to keep Chandler, seeing that Chandler's going to have to play the first 10 minutes of the fourth quarter when the opposition goes to hack-a-Ben.


What if they go to hack a Chandler, GASP! If they do hack a Ben all quarter, we'll be fine imo, they'll just foul out everyone, and if they are afraid of having their best players on the court to pickup fouls, it'll be easy to stop the opposition. And I don't think anyones ever done it for an entire 4th quarter either.


----------



## garnett

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> What if they go to hack a Chandler, GASP! If they do hack a Ben all quarter, we'll be fine imo, they'll just foul out everyone, and if they are afraid of having their best players on the court to pickup fouls, it'll be easy to stop the opposition. And I don't think anyones ever done it for an entire 4th quarter either.


 Haha maybe I did overexaggerate, but I saw every game of the Pistons-Heat series and watching Ben brick absolutely every free throw he took made me not want him as a Bull, especially if we have to overpay. But I'd probably change my mind if he can return to something close to 2003 form.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

Well, there's no doubting that Big Ben is the vastly superior athlete here, but Pryz being 26, and Ben being 31, that's a huge difference in age and longevity. Plus Ben will cost twice as much. They'd just better not trade Chandler, or I'll be really pissed, especially if it's for a 31 year old guy. BEN IS ONLY 31, NOT THE 34 THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN OTHER POSTS. Will be 32 in September though. 

That said, if we'd keep everyone and Reinsdorf would cough up the money to resign everyone, Big Ben is without a doubt the way to go. GET ERR DONE PAX!


----------



## OziBull

COME ON PAX!!!
I will hail you forever if you pull it off! Bring big bad Ben WAllace to town!
If we do it will be the best off season ever!


----------



## calabreseboy

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Perhaps we should wait to see if Pax actually signs Ben before we all have an orgasm and start thinking about how hard it is going to be for other teams to stop us.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



calabreseboy said:


> Perhaps we should wait to see if Pax actually signs Ben before we all have an orgasm and start thinking about how hard it is going to be for other teams to stop us.


Because that's depressing. 

Now sloth, tell me again about the Bulls chances to win the title *and* land Greg Oden next season?


----------



## DaBabyBullz

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Because that's depressing.
> 
> Now sloth, tell me again about the Bulls chances to win the title *and* land Greg Oden next season?


I'll answer for the Slothster. New York baby!! We just have to make sure to beat them real bad every time we play them, and whoever they play next year will always be our 2nd favorite team. If they finish dead last, we have a real good shot at getting the #1 pick :cheers:


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



DaBabyBullz said:


> Well, there's no doubting that Big Ben is the vastly superior athlete here, but Pryz being 26, and Ben being 31, that's a huge difference in age and longevity. Plus Ben will cost twice as much. They'd just better not trade Chandler, or I'll be really pissed, especially if it's for a 31 year old guy. BEN IS ONLY 31, NOT THE 34 THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN OTHER POSTS. Will be 32 in September though.
> 
> That said, if we'd keep everyone and Reinsdorf would cough up the money to resign everyone, Big Ben is without a doubt the way to go. GET ERR DONE PAX!



This "declined" Ben will probaly be better than Pryz at his best. And I bet my money that Pryzbilla starts declining before Ben. This Ben Wallace guy who missed 2.3 games a year due to injury since coming to Detroit, allwhile playing 35+ minutes a night. We all know that Ben is a great physical specimen. Or should we bet on that guy who misses an average of 33 games a season, missing 26 the last season, and isn't in any condition like Ben Wallace, and isn't even that good anyhow, and sign him for 9 million? If Paxson signs Pryzbilla, it'll be his dumbest move as gm. I'd rather not sign anyone and just go into the season than sign Pryzbilla.


----------



## kulaz3000

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> This "declined" Ben will probaly be better than Pryz at his best. And I bet my money that Pryzbilla starts declining before Ben. This Ben Wallace guy who missed 2.3 games a year due to injury since coming to Detroit, allwhile playing 35+ minutes a night. We all know that Ben is a great physical specimen. Or should we bet on that guy who misses an average of 33 games a season, missing 26 the last season, and isn't in any condition like Ben Wallace, and isn't even that good anyhow, and sign him for 9 million? If Paxson signs Pryzbilla, it'll be his dumbest move as gm. I'd rather not sign anyone and just go into the season than sign Pryzbilla.


I agree. Id rather Ben over Pryzbilla if those two are surely the two that Paxson is most targetting. BUT i definitly wouldn't want to do a sign and trade with the Pistons to get Wallce though. Id rather keep Chandler and sign Wallace. and also the length of the contract, the perfect length would have to be 3 years, maybe just maybe 4. thats is the biggest worry for me the contract length.

Though i would love a powerforward who scores, Wallce will be benefical in many ways, leadership wise included. He'd be the perfect example for Tyrus Thomas. Imagine, just imagine Big Ben tutoring Thomas, challenging him in the weights room, and thomas taking the challenge. and we could end up with another BIG BEN in the making with a better offensive game.


----------



## different_13

odd, i've never realised the huge resemblance between Wallace n Thomas (size wise mostly - Ben's not a full 6'9, everyone says so)
- Theyre both athletic, with the edge obviously going to Thomas.
They seem to have similar body structure (length, shoulder size etc) with Wallace obviously being way more built, but Thomas could come close in time.
Thomas is a better ball handler and shooter.

But getting Wallace really would be excellent for Thomas' development!

Only question - if you do get Wallace, where is the low post scoring coming from? I'd imagine there'd be little to no cap room left for a scoring forward/center..

(Mike Sweetney, ok, but that's nowhere near enough).

A lot of putback offence though!

That wingspan thread was freaky - never knew Gordon had a 6'9 wingspan, you'd have a team of damn albatrosses out there!


----------



## narek

The Sun-Times has the story:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull01.html



> The Bulls begin making telephone calls today as the NBA's free-agent contact period officially starts.
> 
> Teams can negotiate with players on the market but cannot sign them until July 12.
> 
> A source close to the Bulls said the team has targeted Detroit big man Ben Wallace, 32, as its top priority. Wallace, an unrestricted free agent, was expected to be a lock to remain with the Pistons until he and coach Flip Saunders had a late-season falling out.
> 
> If the Bulls are unable to land Wallace, Atlanta forward Al Harrington (unrestricted) and Seattle power forward Chris Wilcox (restricted), 23, are next on the Bulls' list of front-court free agents.


No Joel mention at all though. 

Plus Hanley said the Suns liked both Thomas and Thabo.


----------



## remlover

This was on the Pistons board on Realgm:



> JNewton wrote:
> Rob Parker says the Bulls are offering 15 million per for 4 years, compared to the Pistons 4, 48. Sounds like he's gone.


http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=535736&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Thanks to Sonny for pointing it out.


----------



## kukoc4ever

I think this is the right move. If its a 4 year deal I'd jump on it right away.

Wow. The nice thing about Wallace is that he's a pretty good passer as well.

Still don't have any O at the 5, but that's OK if your 5 is a DPOY type player, at least for a couple more years. Perhaps start Sweetney or Malik Allen next to him.

Or, better yet, figure out a way to get Odom away from the Lakers with Deng being the principal.

Odom playing next to Wallace at the 4/5, along with Hinrich, Gordon, Noc, TT... our MLE.. wow.... I think they would have a chance next season.


----------



## kulaz3000

remlover said:


> This was on the Pistons board on Realgm:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=535736&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
> 
> Thanks to Sonny for pointing it out.


15mil?? That has to be Wallace's agent putting that out there. I dont know, 15 mil seems a little steep. 15mil for 3 years, then id breathe a little easier.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull01.html



> The Bulls begin making telephone calls today as the NBA's free-agent contact period officially starts.
> 
> Teams can negotiate with players on the market but cannot sign them until July 12.
> 
> A source close to the Bulls said the team has targeted Detroit big man Ben Wallace, 32, as its top priority. Wallace, an unrestricted free agent, was expected to be a lock to remain with the Pistons until he and coach Flip Saunders had a late-season falling out.
> 
> If the Bulls are unable to land Wallace, Atlanta forward Al Harrington (unrestricted) and Seattle power forward Chris Wilcox (restricted), 23, are next on the Bulls' list of front-court free agents.
> 
> As for the just-completed draft, the Bulls got some immediate validation on both prospects they landed -- LSU forward Tyrus Thomas and Thabo Sefolosha, a shooting guard from Europe -- by at least one team.
> 
> A source said the Phoenix Suns were attempting to trade up to select Sefolosha and traded out of the first round once the Bulls made a deal with the Philadelphia 76ers to get him.
> 
> The Phoenix source also had high regards for Thomas, whom the Suns believe will be the standout of this draft.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



kukoc4ever said:


> I think this is the right move. If its a 4 year deal I'd jump on it right away.
> 
> Wow. The nice thing about Wallace is that he's a pretty good passer as well.
> 
> Still don't have any O at the 5, but that's OK if your 5 is a DPOY type player, at least for a couple more years. Perhaps start Sweetney or Malik Allen next to him.
> 
> Or, better yet, figure out a way to get Odom away from the Lakers with Deng being the principal.
> 
> Odom playing next to Wallace at the 4/5, along with Hinrich, Gordon, Noc, TT... our MLE.. wow.... I think they would have a chance next season.












I like it, too.


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

I'm all over a 4 yr/60 million deal. He'll be paid $12 mil/more, but its only 4 years. The last year, if he declines, he will be an expiring contract. I like it.


----------



## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> Or, better yet, figure out a way to get Odom away from the Lakers with Deng being the principal.
> 
> Odom playing next to Wallace at the 4/5, along with Hinrich, Gordon, Noc, TT... our MLE.. wow.... I think they would have a chance next season.


Awesome idea.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

My only problem with signing Wallace is that it better not force us to let go of other guys when their rookie deals come up.

I'd also be pretty interested in seeing some combination of Chandler, Sweetney, and even Duhon offered as sign and trade bait for a younger, more complementary big guy (Nene, for example) if we do this. We can play Nene and Wallace at the same time, but Wallace and Chandler at the same time will be ugly. I think it could work, but man, I'm very skeptical whether the Bulls would pay what they need to in order to keep their young players with both of those guys taking up big portions of the salary cap.

Speaking of swinging for the fences, how about this:

* Sign Wallace: 5 years, $68M.
* Offer a sign and trade of Duhon for Pryzbilla to Portland. They get a veteran PG who's an upgrade, and a flyer on a big. Joel is the backup and future replacement for Wallace, but at a lower salary.
* Offer Chandler and Sweetney in a sign and trade deal for Nene. Nene is the complementary guy, who, by being big, strong, and a good man defender, lessens the wear and tear on Wallace and allows him to play off other bigs. He also gives us an offensive option.

We end up with something along the lines of this
G- Hinrich 36, Gordon 12
G- Gordon 20, Thabo 20, Deng 8
F- Deng 24, Noc 12, Thomas 12
F- Wallace 34, Thomas 8, Noc 8
C- Nene 24, Pryzbilla 24

---------

Yeah, I doubt it could be pulled off, but since we're going for Wallace, we might as well go whole hog.


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



MikeDC said:


> My only problem with signing Wallace is that it better not force us to let go of other guys when their rookie deals come up.
> 
> I'd also be pretty interested in seeing some combination of Chandler, Sweetney, and even Duhon offered as sign and trade bait for a younger, more complementary big guy (Nene, for example) if we do this. We can play Nene and Wallace at the same time, but Wallace and Chandler at the same time will be ugly. I think it could work, but man, I'm very skeptical whether the Bulls would pay what they need to in order to keep their young players with both of those guys taking up big portions of the salary cap.


I'd be up for that if Nene was healthy. Think we could have gotten CV for Duhon? I know there are trade restrictions with Toronto. Till December right?


----------



## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> We can play Nene and Wallace at the same time, but Wallace and Chandler at the same time will be ugly.


Nene and Wallace together really won't look much different to Wallace and Chandler, he really ain't that talented offensively.



> I'd also be pretty interested in seeing some combination of Chandler, Sweetney, and even Duhon offered as sign and trade bait for a younger, more complementary big guy (Nene, for example)


I would prefer to go after a big who can actually score, or atleast one that has shown he can provide more than just 10ppg, ie a S&T for Wilcox.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



step said:


> Nene and Wallace together really won't look much different to Wallace and Chandler, he really ain't that talented offensively.
> 
> 
> I would prefer to go after a big who can actually score, or atleast one that has shown he can provide more than just 10ppg, ie a S&T for Wilcox.


I edited my post to explain my rationale there. He's not great offensively, but he's better than Chandler. The main reason, however, is defensive. Unlike Tyson, Nene's a legit 270, and a good man defender. That allows him to bang with the other really big guys and free up Wallace to roam and intimidate other guys. That'd also somewhat lessen the wear and tear on Wallace, which given his age is a legit concern.


----------



## Mr. T

I think Chandler would see a little bit of his offensive game come back if he's moved back to the 4. I also agree with the earlier poster - there might not be anyone as hungry as Chandler if we contend. After looking like a JV team his first three years I'm sure he doesn't want to miss out on being a part of something special.

If we *dump* Chandler because we sign Wallace without picking up an Odom or Marion in the process you can count me a member of the *run Riensdorf out of town club*. The chairman says he'll pay for a winner and that time has arrived.

This team looks like it could be one hard nosed, emotional and exciting club to watch. Big Fire guys like Wallace, Nocioni, Chandler and Thomas. I see *lots* of intensity. Maybe even Ben and Luol become emotional surrounded by this cast! 

I think Paxson and Skiles have done excellent jobs. It's now time for Reinsdorf to open up the wallet and do his.

And for those who want to S&T with Detroit I say no way. They're dreaming about Chandler as part of a S&T. Not gonna happen. I'm gonna leave Detroit high and dry. We've got the cap room so they get nothing unless they'll take Sweetney and whatever other scraps necessary.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



MikeDC said:


> Offer Chandler and Sweetney in a sign and trade deal for Nene. Nene is the complementary guy, who, by being big, strong, and a good man defender, lessens the wear and tear on Wallace and allows him to play off other bigs. He also gives us an offensive option.


You're willing to pay Nene a lot if he's to get a salary equal to Chandler's + Sweetney.

I wouldn't give up on either Chandler or Sweetney just yet. Nene is just as much an unknown quantity as are our two players. If all of them perform as they have in the past, Nene isn't worth Chandler by himself, much less Chandler+Sweetney. Besides, the point of going after a RFA is that you shouldn't have to give equal value in trade to get them.


----------



## Mr. T

As for "kneeknee" (good one K4E), I'm not thrilled with the prospect. It seems Denver's not even sure where he's at with his rehabilitation and the guy still doesn't know how to speak English. I have no idea what he'll look like when he gets back on the floor and he seems to have commitment issues (other than getting married). 

I'm willing to take a chance with a guy like Thomas as the #2 pick, I don't think I'm so willing to take a chance on this guy. I wanna know that our big FA acquisition is gonna produce AND make everyone better. Ben Wallace will probably do that.

Wallace, Chandler, Thomas and Nocioni could cover up a lot of perimeter deficiencies at the rim. And we don't have many to begin with. 

What is the best defensive team in the modern era without just limiting it to a ppg stat?

Can this team win a title as an all-NBA defensive team? While the NBA is moving towards an open game, that style team is still yet to take the trophy.

Will a roster with Wallace and Chandler produce another DPOY? Could Chandler battle Wallace for that award? Will a guy like Hinrich make the NBA defensive 1st team? Could a guy like Nocioni make 2nd team? Thabo? Thomas?

Just my opinion, but there are 3 ways to make Ben Gordon a superstar. Put him in a system like the Suns, put him on a bottom feeder where he can command the Ball like AI, or surround him with this kind of defensive makeup where he can focus almost exclusively on putting points on the board. Adding a guy like Wallace will make the other Ben all the more valuable this year.


----------



## theanimal23

I think we should keep Tyson on board if we get Ben. I've ranted on Tyson a lot over the past few weeks. But, I think it would be highly beneficial for Tyson to play beside Ben Wallace. Tyson has shown no offensive ability, and I'm afraid that will never happen. His career will be defined as a rebounder/defender. Tyson might as well learn from the best. Tyson gets called for a lot of fouls. But playing with Ben, will give us more respect from the refs. But, more importantly, Tyson will learn tips from a vet who has won numerous DPOYs. A 4 year deal is not bad. I have to think Ben takes care of his body in a Malone like fashion. If so, he will still be a presence in the rebounding/defending department. In his final year of his [expiring] contract, I gotta think Tyson has progressed exponentially as a defender, and Tyrus will be ready to hold and produce as an all-around PF. By that time, we will have our core in place, and have had 2-3 offseasons on using the MLE. Pax has said, if our environment is intact, we can take a gamble on guys who are less-jibbish but can play. We'll be an attractive destination.

My question to all of you, since I got no clue. How much capspace will we have, if we offer Ben Wallace a Max offer? A front loaded offer? Will we have enough space to get another big this offseason?


----------



## McBulls

theanimal23 said:


> My question to all of you, since I got no clue. How much capspace will we have, if we offer Ben Wallace a Max offer? A front loaded offer? Will we have enough space to get another big this offseason?


No.


----------



## different_13

most likely not, but should have enough room for a veteran guy, especially if trading Malik Allen or someone like that - most likely it should be a swingman such a Adrian Griffin, as the Bulls backcourt (hell, the entire bulls team down to second rotation!) is lacking a real veteran presence that can mentor the young'uns (though they seems to be doing a damn good job by themselves)


----------



## step

Before the draft and all the trades, we had just shy of $20M, too lazy to look into it now but it seems like we really won't have much left.

$1M goes in acquiring Khryapa (including the trading down for Thomas) and trading up for Sefolosha.
$1.8M in picking up Malik Allen's option

so we'd have about $2.2M or so left before we go under the $15M cap space mark. We could front load the offer by that much and decrease it later on, which would be great, but it would also mean we won't be able to sign Butler.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



MikeDC said:


> My only problem with signing Wallace is that it better not force us to let go of other guys when their rookie deals come up.


This is a concern I have, too. But the thing is, I don't think the final formation of this team will necessarily end with Ben Wallace. I think Paxson might very well throw this team out there for the first 20 games and see how they do, but at some point I see a consolidation trade in the works.

Down the road we could certainly be in cap hell if we have Wallace for ~$15M+, on top of Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Nocioni, and Chandler (Important sidenote though: By the time TyThomas, Sefolosha, and our '07 draft pick are up for extensions, Chandler will be off the books and Wallace will almost be off the books so I'm not too worried about those guys.) Fortunately, trade is always an option though and our guys are good enough where there should always be a team looking to acquire them.


----------



## L.O.B

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Looking at Espn's top 25 fa's I had to chuckle when seeing Dali Bagastiff's name at 25. Let's overpay for Wallace and counts ourselves lucky


----------



## theanimal23

step said:


> Before the draft and all the trades, we had just shy of $20M, too lazy to look into it now but it seems like we really won't have much left.
> 
> $1M goes in acquiring Khryapa (including the trading down for Thomas) and trading up for Sefolosha.
> $1.8M in picking up Malik Allen's option
> 
> so we'd have about $2.2M or so left before we go under the $15M cap space mark. We could front load the offer by that much and decrease it later on, which would be great, but it would also mean we won't be able to sign Butler.


I would be very happy to land Big Ben his Butler, hehe. Butler is a big body that can provide some points down low. It will be easy to pair him with either Tyson or Ben to make up for any lack of defense. I really think Butler is a sleeper. Given good coaching, and in our environment, I can see him succeeding. 

And we can't offer a trade to Isiah, b/c he'll think along the lines of Channing Fyre. "Hmm, people want this guy in a trade, I should hold on to him..." They said on ESPN about the draft that the Knicks wanted to move up, but everyone wanted Fyre in return, so Isiah figured he wasn't worth trading.


----------



## Electric Slim

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060701/SPORTS08/607010336/1343

Not sure if this was posted yet, but it says that Detroit is offering $48mil over four, and Chicago is trying to beat it.


----------



## The Krakken

4 years 53 million should be enough. Not a penny more.


----------



## madox

The Krakken said:


> 4 years 53 million should be enough. Not a penny more.


I think it's likely the Bulls will have to add a 5th year. If Detroit's initial offer was 4/48 you don't think they're prepared to go 4/53? 

Personally I don't care about how much it costs. *Paxson knows what Reinsdorf is prepared to spend better than we do*. If Paxson decides to pay 5 years $75 million then I say great. We just got the 3-time DPOY. But I'm sure there'll be plenty of people *****ing and moaning about it.


----------



## madox

Also, Rodman was 34 when the Bulls signed him. 

People act like Wallace has already got one foot in the grave. It seems like on this board anyone older than 26 isn't worth getting. 

I just hope Paxson can close this deal.


----------



## BG7

5 years starting at 12.5 million (think thats what it needs to be to work) with max raises?

So by year:

12.5
13.5
14.5
15.5
16.5

Thats what it looks in terms of pay.

As far as against the salary cap

16.625
17.625
18.625
19.625
0

It comes to a total of 72.5 million over 5 years, 14.5 million average, not bad.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Electric Slim said:


> http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060701/SPORTS08/607010336/1343
> 
> Not sure if this was posted yet, but it says that Detroit is offering $48mil over four, and Chicago is trying to beat it.


If Detroit is offering 4/$48M, that's a $10.5M starting salary.

Under the CBA, rules, we could offer $4/49M... with an $11M starting salary.

The interesting thing there is that, assuming ESPN's max cap number is right, we can create about $17.5M in cap space.

So, if $11M of that goes to Ben, we've still got $6.5M left to give to Pryzbilla, which should be plenty.

Why add them both? Because then we can hedge and try to save salary down the road by trading Tyson and essentially replacing him with the bigger, less expensive guy in Pryzbilla.

Another way to look at it would be to try and get ahold of Nene.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



MikeDC said:


> If Detroit is offering 4/$48M, that's a $10.5M starting salary.
> 
> Under the CBA, rules, we could offer $4/49M... with an $11M starting salary.
> 
> The interesting thing there is that, assuming ESPN's max cap number is right, we can create about $17.5M in cap space.
> 
> So, if $11M of that goes to Ben, we've still got $6.5M left to give to Pryzbilla, which should be plenty.
> 
> Why add them both? Because then we can hedge and try to save salary down the road by trading Tyson and essentially replacing him with the bigger, less expensive guy in Pryzbilla.
> 
> Another way to look at it would be to try and get ahold of Nene.


NVM, you said 4 years.


----------



## madox

That would be amazing Mike but I don't see him leaving Detroit at that price. 

A guy everyone seems to be talking about that I think would be a nice addition is J. Butler.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

On a 4 year deal, here is what we can roughly give Wallace.

17.5
18.9
20.3
21.7

So 4 years for a total of 78 million about.

Its actually in Ben Wallace's interest, financially, to sign a 4 year max with us, the 36 and over rule messes up the cap, so we aren't allowed to give him as much as with a 4 year deal.

The max we can give him for 5 years, is 72.5, yeah, thats screwy.

All in favor of giving him the 4 year 78 million dollar max deal?


----------



## charlietyra

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> On a 4 year deal, here is what we can roughly give Wallace.
> 
> 17.5
> 18.9
> 20.3
> 21.7
> 
> So 4 years for a total of 78 million about.
> 
> Its actually in Ben Wallace's interest, financially, to sign a 4 year max with us, the 36 and over rule messes up the cap, so we aren't allowed to give him as much as with a 4 year deal.
> 
> The max we can give him for 5 years, is 72.5, yeah, thats screwy.
> 
> All in favor of giving him the 4 year 78 million dollar max deal?


That's obscene. This guy is not Lebron James


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



charlietyra said:


> That's obscene. This guy is not Lebron James


Well to be fair, its not a true max deal, we don't have enough max space to give him that. A true max deal for 4 years/5 years would be this

4 years: 81.5 million (we can only offer around 78 million)
5 Years: 105.6 million (we can only offer 72.5 million)


----------



## charlietyra

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Well to be fair, its not a true max deal, we don't have enough max space to give him that. A true max deal for 4 years/5 years would be this
> 
> 4 years: 81.5 million (we can only offer around 78 million)
> 5 Years: 105.6 million (we can only offer 72.5 million)



Well, in that case with the money we save we can extend Tyson Chandler for another few years.


----------



## SALO

madox said:


> Also, Rodman was 34 when the Bulls signed him.
> 
> People act like Wallace has already got one foot in the grave. It seems like on this board anyone older than 26 isn't worth getting.
> 
> I just hope Paxson can close this deal.


Exactly. Plus, Rodman was notorious for his late night drinking, partying, and gambling. He didn't take care of his body as well as Wallace has. Even so, Rodman was still effective at age 36.


----------



## SALO

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



MikeDC said:


> If Detroit is offering 4/$48M, that's a $10.5M starting salary.
> 
> Under the CBA, rules, we could offer $4/49M... with an $11M starting salary.
> 
> The interesting thing there is that, assuming ESPN's max cap number is right, we can create about $17.5M in cap space.
> 
> So, if $11M of that goes to Ben, we've still got $6.5M left to give to Pryzbilla, which should be plenty.
> 
> Why add them both? Because then we can hedge and try to save salary down the road by trading Tyson and essentially replacing him with the bigger, less expensive guy in Pryzbilla.
> 
> Another way to look at it would be to try and get ahold of Nene.


We could also increase upon that $6.5M by sending Sweetney and / or Allen back to Detroit. They might want to get "something" in return, and Pax wouldn't mind giving them up in a deal because it just increases our ability to go after another free agent. 

If Detroit was willing to take Sweetney's expiring deal, we could have another $9M in cap room instead of $6.5M. More than enough to land any of the other free agents out there, or work out a trade where we absorb a larger salary.


----------



## Ron Cey

I don't care what it costs. The capspace has been saved to spend. He's by far and away the best option.

Pay the man. Get it done. Don't look back.


----------



## theanimal23

Is there no chance to get Jackie Butler along with Ben Wallace this offseason? I wish we could give him max $$$ the other years, and save enough cap space for this year to also get Butler.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



theanimal23 said:


> Is there no chance to get Jackie Butler along with Ben Wallace this offseason? I wish we could give him max $$$ the other years, and save enough cap space for this year to also get Butler.


I'm pretty sure we could afford Butler too :

C Wallace / Butler
F Chandler / Thomas
F Deng / Nocioni / Khryapa
G Gordon / Sefolosha
G Hinrich / Duhon

I wish we wouldn't of reupped Mailk Allen until we found out who we were gettin in FA. I'd be absolutely fine going into next season with THAT team.


----------



## different_13

Allen gives a nice veteran presence at the 4/5 though, good lockerroom guy too.

and you need a 5th guard there, like Pargo (or preferably a veteran like Lindsey Hunter..ooh, trade idea?)


----------



## The ROY

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

I don't think we'll have Duhon, let alone Pargo.

A trade is brewing.


----------



## BG7

You give Wallace enough of the cap so that he signs, whether its only 10 million, or our entire capspace.

You don't put a guy like Wallace on hold, and end up not signing him so you can get Jackie Butler...


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



MikeDC said:


> If Detroit is offering 4/$48M, that's a $10.5M starting salary.
> 
> Under the CBA, rules, we could offer $4/49M... with an $11M starting salary.
> 
> The interesting thing there is that, assuming ESPN's max cap number is right, we can create about $17.5M in cap space.
> 
> So, if $11M of that goes to Ben, we've still got $6.5M left to give to Pryzbilla, which should be plenty.
> 
> Why add them both? Because then we can hedge and try to save salary down the road by trading Tyson and essentially replacing him with the bigger, less expensive guy in Pryzbilla.
> 
> Another way to look at it would be to try and get ahold of Nene.


Mike, are you suggesting we can't offer him more than 4/49 for a four year deal? Why is that?


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Mike, are you suggesting we can't offer him more than 4/49 for a four year deal? Why is that?


The most we can offer him on a 4 year deal is something in the lines of 78 million.

His was to get Pryzbilla too, and its not worth lowballing Wallace to end up not getting Wallace, and just end up with a pile of stiff named Pryzbilla.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

We need to be REALLY careful here. If we go after Wallace first, as it seems we are, we need to get him. Przybilla might not like being pursued as a second option. So he might be gone on the morning of the 12, to Portland or to elsewhere, and we might not have Wallace. Then we'd have lost #1 and #2.

This is the danger of gambling in free agency. Let's just hope that doesn't happen.


----------



## Frankensteiner

Ron Cey said:


> I don't care what it costs. The capspace has been saved to spend. He's by far and away the best option.
> 
> Pay the man. Get it done. Don't look back.


Agree with this. 

Plus, Pax knows best the amount of money he can invest into the payroll and his long term plans for the team. I can't understand people worrying about overpaying Wallace. Pax is not going to offer him this contract on a whim; I'm sure he knows how much he can spend while still having the ability to retain other core players (that, or he already has plans to consolidate some of our talent).


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

I should also add that I'd feel a lot better if we could get Ben to accept a four year deal as opposed to a five year deal.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

I would say that with the way that Wallace was getting along with Flip, he will probably be looking for a way out of Detroit given the right opportunity, and I don't see why he wouldn't want to go to Chicago. Makes sense to me. They'll feel him out and see what it takes to sign him, and then go from there. Paying those obscene #s that some of you are proposing is VERY stupid though. He is NOT Lebron or Jordan or anything like that, and he's past his prime already, and in 4 years will most definitely be so. I say sign him to a front loaded contract using up all the space so in the next few years when we have to resign our boys it's easier to do so. We HAVE to resign our guys, and I'd hate to lose them because we overpaid for a guy on the downward slope. As for trading away Chandler, that's just plain old retarded. With Chandler we'd have the ability to put a lineup on the court that would be amazing on defense, and you can always switch it up as needed to get more offense.

Defensive lineup:

Hinrich
Sefolosha
Thomas (if he can indeed play the 3)
Chandler
Wallace

Scoring lineup:

Hinrich
Gordon
Nocioni
Songaila (if he resigns) Sweetney is next (if he resigns) Chandler is next for PF scoring lol
Wallace

Best lineup:

Hinrich
Gordon
Nocioni
Chandler
Wallace


----------



## Roscoe Sheed

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

As a Pistons fan, I'm torn. I think Ben is on the downside of his career and he has never been worse on offense. I mean, he shoots 25% from the FT line. He can barely catch and dunk the ball now. However, he is still a great effort player (usually) and he still makes fabulous defensive plays from time to time.

Maybe the Pistons could get Chandler in a sign-and-trade. Then, hopefully they could land Bonzi Wells and Speedy Claxton or Bobby Jackson. The Pistons would still be a very solid team if these things happened.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Helping the Pistons out by giving them chandler defeats the purpose of signing a guy like Wallace.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

is it me, or is marcia just _so completely clueless_. i think wallace and skiles will be best buds!

*As for Wallace, there are reasons he isn't likely to be a Bull next season.

The Bulls would have to give him a five-year deal at around $70 million, which is a lot for a player going on 32 who has to work doubly hard because he's only 6-9.

And Wallace was critical of Detroit coach Flip Saunders during the playoffs. How long would that kind of attitude be tolerated under Bulls coach Scott Skiles? He won't lose any power struggles anytime soon.
*


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-060629bulls,1,7843387.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed


god forbid you break a nail honey.


----------



## LuolDeng

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



mizenkay said:


> is it me, or is marcia just _so completely clueless_. i think wallace and skiles will be best buds!
> 
> _As for Wallace, there are reasons he isn't likely to be a Bull next season.
> 
> The Bulls would have to give him a five-year deal at around $70 million, which is a lot for a player going on 32 who has to work doubly hard because he's only 6-9.
> 
> And Wallace was critical of Detroit coach Flip Saunders during the playoffs. How long would that kind of attitude be tolerated under Bulls coach Scott Skiles? He won't lose any power struggles anytime soon.
> _
> 
> 
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-060629bulls,1,7843387.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed
> 
> 
> god forbid you break a nail honey.


I don't see his feuding with Flip being a potential sign that he would fight with Skiles. Him and Skiles seem like they are of the same mindset. Match made in heaven if you ask me.

Not sure what she was thinking there.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



KHinrich12 said:


> I don't see his feuding with Flip being a potential sign that he would fight with Skiles. Him and Skiles seem like they are of the same mindset. Match made in heaven if you ask me.
> 
> Not sure what she was thinking there.


I think she had a point at least. If he didn't get along with Flip, and criticized the coach, then it's obvious that if he did that in Chicago it wouldn't fly. Simple as that. Flip messed up in the playoffs, but he did lead them to a great regular season, so it's not like he just screwed up all year and was a horrible coach. 

As for the Blazer fan wanting Chandler in a sign and trade, why the hell would we do that? Give a rival a guy to replace the guy we want to take away, while making ourselves a weaker team? That's just plain old dumb. It's not like we HAVE to trade for him, we can just sign him ourselves and not give up anything.


----------



## Good Hope

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



DaBabyBullz said:


> I think she had a point at least. If he didn't get along with Flip, and criticized the coach, then it's obvious that if he did that in Chicago it wouldn't fly. Simple as that. Flip messed up in the playoffs, but he did lead them to a great regular season, so it's not like he just screwed up all year and was a horrible coach.
> 
> As for the Blazer fan wanting Chandler in a sign and trade, why the hell would we do that? Give a rival a guy to replace the guy we want to take away, while making ourselves a weaker team? That's just plain old dumb. It's not like we HAVE to trade for him, we can just sign him ourselves and not give up anything.



Didn't Orlando do the sign and trade, giving B Wallace (and someone else -- a guard?) to Detroit, as a "favor" to Grant Hill, who felt a kind of obligation to the team? I wonder if B Wallace would "return the favor" and request such a thing from Chicago?


----------



## DaBabyBullz

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Good Hope said:


> Didn't Orlando do the sign and trade, giving B Wallace (and someone else -- a guard?) to Detroit, as a "favor" to Grant Hill, who felt a kind of obligation to the team? I wonder if B Wallace would "return the favor" and request such a thing from Chicago?


If he does that just say no to him. Assuming we have to give up one of our young core players in that trade. Allen, Sweets, Duhon, etc go ahead, but not Chandler, Gordon, Hinrich, Noc, Deng in that trade.


----------



## Ron Cey

Also, I don't care if its a five year deal. I'd prefer 4 years, but don't want to get too caught up in that. 

If you can sign Ben Wallace to this team, you do it. We contend for the conference championship next season and beyond. When he starts to decline in a few years, he takes on more of an AD role as our young guys are entering their prime. 

This is the move. Give him whatever he wants. Every damn penny.


----------



## Ballscientist

I think you can get Ben if you give him 5 years $65M, what do you think?


----------



## BG7

Imagine this, game 7, NBA Finals, 33 seconds left, Bulls down 82-80. We need a stop, we put in a lineup of Kirk, Sefolosha, Thomas, Wallace, and Chandler. We get the stop, timeout, abou 7 seconds left. Bring in a lineup of Kirk, Ben, , Deng, Nocioni, Thomas. Thoams inbounds, he finds Nocioni, to Gordon at the top of the key, THREE!!!!! BULLS ARE THE CHAMPIONS.

Thats why we need to sign Ben Wallace.


----------



## Jermaniac Fan

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

WOW!! Think about having Ben Wallace and Thomas in the same team.. that would be NASTY!


----------



## Dancon7

How much do we assume it's going to cost us to resign Gordon, Noc, Deng, and Hinrich? Plus add in Chandler's contract and TT, Thabo, Khryapa's contracts and most of what's left can go to Wallace in those later years of his deal. I'm really not sure how much guys like Noc, Hinrich, Deng, and Gordon will command on the open market. Does anyone have any inkling on that?

If the plan is to keep the core together and get Wallace, I think it would make sense to frontload his deal so that there's money left for the rest of the core guys as they become vets.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Mike, are you suggesting we can't offer him more than 4/49 for a four year deal? Why is that?


No, I'm suggesting we could offer him that. I'd think Sloth is about right on the max we could offer him, but I was just looking at whether we could offer a bit more than Detroit and still have enough room to sign Joel.

I think Salo's idea of offering someone back in a sign and trade is a pretty smart idea too, for the same reasons.


----------



## paxman

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Paxson!
> Paxson!!
> Paxson!!!
> Paxson!!!!
> Paxson!!!!!
> Paxson!!!!!!
> Paxson!!!!!!!



:laugh:

sloth make a me raugh


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



MikeDC said:


> No, I'm suggesting we could offer him that. I'd think Sloth is about right on the max we could offer him, but I was just looking at whether we could offer a bit more than Detroit and still have enough room to sign Joel.
> 
> I think Salo's idea of offering someone back in a sign and trade is a pretty smart idea too, for the same reasons.


Got it.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

I think it's very telling that Wallace is visiting us first, and on the first day of the negotiating period. He must at least be considering us.

As for Paxson: PROACTIVE.

Can you say it, Bulls fans?


----------



## paxman

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Good lord. We might be the first team to shut out another team next season if Wallace signs with us. Ben Wallace, Kirk Hinrich, Andres Nocioni, Luol Deng, Tyrus Thomas, Thabo Sefalosha and Chris Duhon. I mean, damn. You talk about a combination of speed, length and athleticism, along with very disciplined defense, and a couple guys who are just bulldogs. That's just an insane group of guys to have on the floor for your team defensively.
> 
> But scoring, that will be the challenge if Wallace is our big free agent signing.



:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: 

it's like phoenix. you can score 110 on them. but they'll score 120.

we might only score 80 points. but you ain't sniffing 60, biatch. :starwars: 

"it's the, eye of the tiger it's the thrill of the fight, rising up......"


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



paxman said:


> :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
> 
> it's like phoenix. you can score 110 on them. but they'll score 120.
> 
> we might only score 80 points. but you ain't sniffing 60, biatch. :starwars:
> 
> "it's the, eye of the tiger it's the thrill of the fight, rising up......"


 I usually like how the boards scripts "****" out all the profanity. Keeps people from taking posts too personally. But I must say, your use of 'biatch' is exemplary.


----------



## paxman

one thing people are missing here:

yes, dumars' 4/48 offer is considerably less than pax' 4/60.

but this came from a source called rob parker. 

ask any piston fan, and you'll realize that he is sam smith's long lost twin brother. 

i would wait for more info on this report.


----------



## paxman

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



such sweet thunder said:


> .... But I must say, your use of 'biatch' is exemplary.



thank you sir

:smile:


----------



## mizenkay

http://www.mlive.com/weblogs/fullcourtpress/index.ssf?/mtlogs/mlive_fcpress/archives/2006_07.html


Saturday, July 01, 2006	

*Blakely radio notes: In all likelihood Ben will return* 

While Ben Wallace may be visiting Chicago, their offer likely won't be head-and-shoulders above what the Pistons will be able to offer, according to A. Sherrod Blakely on WXYT-AM Detroit. So, when all is said and done don't be surprised if Ben Wallace remains in Detroit.

Here are notes from Blakely's interview. _Paraphrased except where quoted._



:reporter:


_*Q: Is Ben Wallace indeed in Chicago right now?*

A: "From my understanding Ben is in the Windy City." This isn't too big a shock. He said he'd explore every option, and the Bulls is the only real option he has to give serious thought to.

*Q: How much will they spend on a 31 year old player who's a little on his downside?*

A: This isn't about age or ability, it's his leadership. The Bulls have a lot of talented players, they just don't have a cornerstone. They need a leader and face of the franchise. He's a Scott Skiles kind of guy. What he brings to the team is intangibles.

Let's not forget they've also got a ton of money.

*Q: Do you expect the Bulls to offer a max contract?*

A: Pretty close, but not a max. At least $14 million "and some change." There's no way to tell if they're looking at 3, 4, or 5 years. But, look for it to start in the $14 million range.

---

*Q: Athletes love being courted like this. For a humble guy like Ben, this has to feel good. We've seen a glimpse of his ego at times this year.*

A: Of course he has an ego after all his success. That's normal. The Bulls fawning over him is understandable. He can truly find out what his worth is around the league. Certainly the Bulls will make a run for him. Depending on how talks go with Detroit and Ben, that'll determine if other teams come into play. If other teams feel he isn't returning to Detroit, they'll come in offering him money or sign-and-trades. The Pistons could start looking at sign-and-trade options with other teams. You certainly don't want to lose a key player to someone within your division. But, I'm sure there's some loyalty from Ben. He won't try to screw the Pistons if he does leave.

*Q: Everyone loves Ben Wallace, but he didn't play as well during the playoffs as we're used to seeing. His free throws were missing, he was getting beat on defense, he had an incident in Orlando. What are your thoughts? Does he really dislike Flip Saunders?*

A: No, that's overblown. There are certainly some issues, no question, but it's not as bad as advertised. Flip is Ben's first coach who is offensive minded, and Ben's not used to that. Flip coached to his strengths. It goes against what Ben is all about. That caused some bumpy moments, of course. Both Flip and Ben had to learn from each other, and I think they have. If you look at the two seasons under Larry Brown, Ben got quite a few touches on offense in the first quarter of games. Not to score points, but so he feels involved. In the future they'll take that under consideration.

*Q: Caller asks why Sherrod thinks Ben would really try to force a sign-and-trade? *

A: There's a sense of loyalty there. Yes, this is about the money, but there is a bit of loyalty. I just can't see Ben walking away and leaving the Pistons empty-handed. A lot of people would be greatly disappointed if Ben allowed that to happen. His image would take a major hit. That goes against everything he is about. People around the league would be disappointed in him, too. You don't want people to think you're a bad guy, and he'd take some hits.

---

*Q: Caller says this decision lies slowly in the hands of Ben Wallace. Not the Pistons. He asks if Ben does leave, and he forces a sign-and-trade, who do the Pistons want in return from the Bulls?*

A: One guy. Tyson Chandler is a 7-1, defensive-minded player, and he can run he floor. You are right, though, this is all Ben's call. When it's all said and done, the one person who will decide the outcome is Ben Wallace. Even if he decided to go elsewhere, he will decide whether to leave the Pistons empty-handed. Ben's a prideful guy. He's been an upright, standup guy, and if he leaves like that - without a sign-and-trade, it would be out of character for him.

*Q: What does he not like about Flip Saunders? Is this really an issue?*

A: It's a factor, but not a big factor. It's not personal. It's the style of play. Ben likes the hard fought, defensive-minded, grind-it-out style of play. This team relied on jump shots and making perimeter plays. For a big guy who does so many intangible things like Ben, this isn't his style. That's not a system Ben is comfortable with. He wants to be on a team that is defense first, let the offense come as it may.

Going back to the Orlando issue, it wasn't a Ben thing. It was about the team had forgotten their identity. It was about defense. It looked selfish, but it was a reminder to the team of what they need to do.

I just don't think Ben will be so selfish to leave the Pistons empty-handed. It's not in his character.
_


----------



## BG7

Why would Ben want us to get rid of our good players if he wants to come here? These Detroit radio announcers are full of ****. How often is their a trade and sign when the team has the full money to sign the guy? Wouldn't giving the Pistons a guy the caliber of Tyson make it less likely for us to win the championship? Why would it make Ben look like a bad guy for signing with us? Is he coming here to smoke weed and steal cars? The only ones that'd be sour is Detroit fans.


----------



## SALO

mizenkay said:


> http://www.mlive.com/weblogs/fullcourtpress/index.ssf?/mtlogs/mlive_fcpress/archives/2006_07.html
> 
> 
> Saturday, July 01, 2006
> 
> *Blakely radio notes: In all likelihood Ben will return*
> 
> While Ben Wallace may be visiting Chicago, their offer likely won't be head-and-shoulders above what the Pistons will be able to offer, according to A. Sherrod Blakely on WXYT-AM Detroit. So, when all is said and done don't be surprised if Ben Wallace remains in Detroit.
> 
> Here are notes from Blakely's interview. _Paraphrased except where quoted._
> 
> 
> 
> :reporter:
> 
> 
> _*Q: Is Ben Wallace indeed in Chicago right now?*
> 
> A: "From my understanding Ben is in the Windy City." This isn't too big a shock. He said he'd explore every option, and the Bulls is the only real option he has to give serious thought to.
> 
> *Q: How much will they spend on a 31 year old player who's a little on his downside?*
> 
> A: This isn't about age or ability, it's his leadership. The Bulls have a lot of talented players, they just don't have a cornerstone. They need a leader and face of the franchise. He's a Scott Skiles kind of guy. What he brings to the team is intangibles.
> 
> Let's not forget they've also got a ton of money.
> 
> *Q: Do you expect the Bulls to offer a max contract?*
> 
> A: Pretty close, but not a max. At least $14 million "and some change." There's no way to tell if they're looking at 3, 4, or 5 years. But, look for it to start in the $14 million range.
> 
> ---
> 
> *Q: Athletes love being courted like this. For a humble guy like Ben, this has to feel good. We've seen a glimpse of his ego at times this year.*
> 
> A: Of course he has an ego after all his success. That's normal. The Bulls fawning over him is understandable. He can truly find out what his worth is around the league. Certainly the Bulls will make a run for him. Depending on how talks go with Detroit and Ben, that'll determine if other teams come into play. If other teams feel he isn't returning to Detroit, they'll come in offering him money or sign-and-trades. The Pistons could start looking at sign-and-trade options with other teams. You certainly don't want to lose a key player to someone within your division. But, I'm sure there's some loyalty from Ben. He won't try to screw the Pistons if he does leave.
> 
> *Q: Everyone loves Ben Wallace, but he didn't play as well during the playoffs as we're used to seeing. His free throws were missing, he was getting beat on defense, he had an incident in Orlando. What are your thoughts? Does he really dislike Flip Saunders?*
> 
> A: No, that's overblown. There are certainly some issues, no question, but it's not as bad as advertised. Flip is Ben's first coach who is offensive minded, and Ben's not used to that. Flip coached to his strengths. It goes against what Ben is all about. That caused some bumpy moments, of course. Both Flip and Ben had to learn from each other, and I think they have. If you look at the two seasons under Larry Brown, Ben got quite a few touches on offense in the first quarter of games. Not to score points, but so he feels involved. In the future they'll take that under consideration.
> 
> *Q: Caller asks why Sherrod thinks Ben would really try to force a sign-and-trade? *
> 
> A: There's a sense of loyalty there. Yes, this is about the money, but there is a bit of loyalty. I just can't see Ben walking away and leaving the Pistons empty-handed. A lot of people would be greatly disappointed if Ben allowed that to happen. His image would take a major hit. That goes against everything he is about. People around the league would be disappointed in him, too. You don't want people to think you're a bad guy, and he'd take some hits.
> 
> ---
> 
> *Q: Caller says this decision lies slowly in the hands of Ben Wallace. Not the Pistons. He asks if Ben does leave, and he forces a sign-and-trade, who do the Pistons want in return from the Bulls?*
> 
> A: One guy. Tyson Chandler is a 7-1, defensive-minded player, and he can run he floor. You are right, though, this is all Ben's call. When it's all said and done, the one person who will decide the outcome is Ben Wallace. Even if he decided to go elsewhere, he will decide whether to leave the Pistons empty-handed. Ben's a prideful guy. He's been an upright, standup guy, and if he leaves like that - without a sign-and-trade, it would be out of character for him.
> 
> *Q: What does he not like about Flip Saunders? Is this really an issue?*
> 
> A: It's a factor, but not a big factor. It's not personal. It's the style of play. Ben likes the hard fought, defensive-minded, grind-it-out style of play. This team relied on jump shots and making perimeter plays. For a big guy who does so many intangible things like Ben, this isn't his style. That's not a system Ben is comfortable with. He wants to be on a team that is defense first, let the offense come as it may.
> 
> Going back to the Orlando issue, it wasn't a Ben thing. It was about the team had forgotten their identity. It was about defense. It looked selfish, but it was a reminder to the team of what they need to do.
> 
> I just don't think Ben will be so selfish to leave the Pistons empty-handed. It's not in his character.
> _


DO NOT give them Tyson. :nonono: 

Steve Nash left Dallas as an unrestricted free agent. There was no sign & trade. He left them with squat. He was best buddies with Cuban and Dirk too. 

If Ben demands we give something back to Detroit, I wouldn't like it, but who cares if all it costs us is someone like Sweetney or Malik Allen. But giving them Tyson would be foolish, IMO.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

SALO said:


> DO NOT give them Tyson. :nonono:
> 
> Steve Nash left Dallas as an unrestricted free agent. There was no sign & trade. He left them with squat. He was best buddies with Cuban and Dirk too.
> 
> If Ben demands we give something back to Detroit, I wouldn't like it, but who cares if all it costs us is someone like Sweetney or Malik Allen. But giving them Tyson would be foolish, IMO.


If you give up Tyson, you have probably 8-9 million dollars in cap room to sign another big man to go next to Wallace. Is there someone in free agency or a salary stilted trade that would be a better fit next to Wallace?


----------



## BG7

Don't worry guys, its just the Detroit Media ****ting themselves.


----------



## mizenkay

http://www.mlive.com/sportsflash/mi.../115178546164150.xml&storylist=michigansports



_7/1/2006, 4:18 p.m. ET
By LARRY LAGE
The Associated Press_ 

_DETROIT (AP) — Bringing back Ben Wallace is a priority for the Detroit Pistons.

*The Chicago Bulls appear set to give Wallace a reason to move.*

Detroit wants to keep its starting lineup together and that's only possible if it retains Wallace, perhaps the NBA's No. 1 unrestricted free agent.

*"Out top priority is to re-sign Ben," Joe Dumars, Pistons president of basketball operations, told The Associated Press late Friday. "Our goals are the same as they have been for the past five years, and that's to compete for the NBA title."*

Wallace helped Detroit advance to four straight conference finals — the first team to do so since the Bulls of the early 1990s.

Now, Chicago seems to want the four-time Defensive Player of the Year to take it to heights it hasn't reached since Michael Jordan left the franchise nearly a decade ago.

Wallace was scheduled to meet with the Bulls in Chicago on Saturday — the first day of free agency — according to a pair of anonymous NBA officials, Booth Newspapers reported.

*The Pistons, Bulls and the rest of the NBA are prevented from signing players July 12, but teams could begin negotiating with free agents Saturday. Dumars has said he planned to contact Arn Tellem, Wallace's agent, Saturday morning.*

*Messages seeking comment were left with Tellem, and a call went unanswered at Wallace's home in suburban Detroit.*

The Bulls might be the only team competing with Detroit for Wallace. Atlanta, Charlotte and Toronto appear to be the only other teams with enough salary-cap space to woo Wallace, and none seems interested._



more at link


----------



## paxman

for anyone thinking that wallace's age is that big a deal - don't forget rodman. who had a somewhat similar game. rodman didn't decline that much at this age. 

and don't forget how amazingly well wallace takes care of his body.

and don't forget that they played their starting 5 way too much in detroit. we have the depth here to give wallace more rest, something that will rejuvinate his play.

just, like, don't forget stuff.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

SALO said:


> DO NOT give them Tyson. :nonono:
> 
> Steve Nash left Dallas as an unrestricted free agent. There was no sign & trade. He left them with squat. He was best buddies with Cuban and Dirk too.
> 
> If Ben demands we give something back to Detroit, I wouldn't like it, but who cares if all it costs us is someone like Sweetney or Malik Allen. But giving them Tyson would be foolish, IMO.


That's exactly my thinking. Usually a sign and trade is done to make the cap #s work, not to give a good player from the team you're joining to the team you're leaving. That's just plain old retarded to want your new team to give up a quality player at a position you don't play. I could see it if Chandler was only a C, but he's a PF, and Ben's a C, so they could compliment eachother very nicely. As a player you should always want your team to have as many good players as possible (unless they're your competition for playing time or starting). I could live with giving up Sweets or Allen, etc, cause they're nothing special and it would help with the cap, plus we're deep at PF now.


----------



## unBULLievable

mizenkay said:


> http://www.mlive.com/sportsflash/mi.../115178546164150.xml&storylist=michigansports
> 
> 
> 
> _7/1/2006, 4:18 p.m. ET
> By LARRY LAGE
> The Associated Press_
> 
> _DETROIT (AP) — Bringing back Ben Wallace is a priority for the Detroit Pistons.
> 
> *The Chicago Bulls appear set to give Wallace a reason to move.*
> 
> Detroit wants to keep its starting lineup together and that's only possible if it retains Wallace, perhaps the NBA's No. 1 unrestricted free agent.
> 
> *"Out top priority is to re-sign Ben," Joe Dumars, Pistons president of basketball operations, told The Associated Press late Friday. "Our goals are the same as they have been for the past five years, and that's to compete for the NBA title."*
> 
> Wallace helped Detroit advance to four straight conference finals — the first team to do so since the Bulls of the early 1990s.
> 
> Now, Chicago seems to want the four-time Defensive Player of the Year to take it to heights it hasn't reached since Michael Jordan left the franchise nearly a decade ago.
> 
> Wallace was scheduled to meet with the Bulls in Chicago on Saturday — the first day of free agency — according to a pair of anonymous NBA officials, Booth Newspapers reported.
> 
> *The Pistons, Bulls and the rest of the NBA are prevented from signing players July 12, but teams could begin negotiating with free agents Saturday. Dumars has said he planned to contact Arn Tellem, Wallace's agent, Saturday morning.*
> 
> *Messages seeking comment were left with Tellem, and a call went unanswered at Wallace's home in suburban Detroit.*
> 
> The Bulls might be the only team competing with Detroit for Wallace. Atlanta, Charlotte and Toronto appear to be the only other teams with enough salary-cap space to woo Wallace, and none seems interested._
> 
> 
> 
> more at link



What does McGraw have to say about this? Any news from the negotiations today?

Thanks


----------



## SALO

Darius Miles Davis said:


> If you give up Tyson, you have probably 8-9 million dollars in cap room to sign another big man to go next to Wallace. Is there someone in free agency or a salary stilted trade that would be a better fit next to Wallace?


I think Tyson can and will regain the 2004-2005 form which made him so valuable to us. And I think we will see that Tyson emerge again this season. I'd take that Tyson over Gooden, Wilcox, Pryzbilla etc. at similar sized deals.

I would still want to see Tyson on this team even if we added Wallace. I think he and Wallace could work, and I've always felt that way. But if we dump him in a deal for Wallace, we wouldn't be giving them a chance to prove it. 

I'd like to hang on to Tyson a little longer (this season at least). I believe if we added Big Ben, Tyson becomes much better, and so will his value around the league.


----------



## paxman

well we wouldn't give them tyson as ben doing detroit a favor (ridiculous claim) or as a result of them having leverage (only leverage they have is by threatening to give him a 6 year deal. and come on now)

we would give them tyson, so 9 million dollars free up under the cap (and if we are 15-17 under now, and give ben a 4/60 deal starting at say 13 mill a year, that puts us 11-13 mill under the cap) so we can get another free agent big, one with post moves. wilcox, nene, gooden.

and the problem with building up tyson's value in keeping him another year, so that supposedly there will be a team next year that would give us a better post player than nene/gooden/wilcox and take on tyson's contract, is that tyson might not get enough minutes this year to build up his value. 

we got noc clocking a few minutes at pf b/c he and deng are both golden and 48 mpg for both ain't enough. we got sweetney on a contract year, so he might temporarily depart from his dearly beloved krispy kremes to step up his play for one year. tyrus thomas has to get SOMETHING. big ben will obviously clock in full starter's minutes. khariyawhat'shisface seems like the type of defensive player that skiles puts in the game when whomever is play pf isn't playing intense enough. i see him and tyrus not playing any sf b/c again, deng and noc have that covered and then some. perhaps malik allen won't get much, but tyson is not going to get 30+ minutes, b/c the role of the defensive-player/rebounder/inept-scorer is filled by ben wallace. we can't possibly have ben wallace AND tyson on the court together for more than 0 minutes per game can we? and if we keep tyson, obviously we will, but not for a lot. because in that case our 4th and 5th options on offense are benny the bull and benny the bull's drunk cousin, and i don't think that's legal.


----------



## SausageKingofChicago

Darius Miles Davis said:


> If you give up Tyson, you have probably 8-9 million dollars in cap room to sign another big man to go next to Wallace. Is there someone in free agency or a salary stilted trade that would be a better fit next to Wallace?


I am prepared to hang on to Chandler but if Wallace is a legit option for us right now and it looked like a sign and trade route I would do it for Chandler if that's what it took - provided :

We also had a deal for Nene to sit alongside Ben

Personally..I would rather send Chandler to the Lakers (if they were interested) for Chris Mihm , Aaron McKie and their 2007 1st round pick 

We send Sweetney and Allen and the Lakers 2007 1st round pick to Denver for Nene 

We sign Ben 

Nene and Ben in the first unit , Mihm and Tyrus in the 2nd - resign Songaila as our 5th big


----------



## Brian.

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> The only ones that'd be sour is Detroit fans.


You would be suprised with the reaction from Detroit fans right now. Most fans want him back but are weary of giving him to much money or years. As much of a beast Ben is on defense he absolutely kills the offense. We have essentially being playing 4 vs 5 on the offensive side of the ball since he has been here. Also he has had issues with our last three coaches Carlisle, Brown and Flip. If Ben was 25 I would have no problem with giving him a blank check but at 31 I would much rather go in a different direction then give him a ridiculous contract.


----------



## Cyanobacteria

As someone who is turning 33 later this summer, I find all of this talk about Wallace being too old to be quite offensive. Mind your elders, you whipper-snappers!

In all likelyhood, the Bulls have to throw the kitchen sink at Wallace to woo him away from a championship contender. That means more years, overpaying, his own lockerroom, assistants to tie his shoes, whatever...

Ben Stiller to Pax,"_Do_ it. _D_o it."


----------



## paxman

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Brian said:


> You would be suprised with the reaction from Detroit fans right now. Most fans want him back but are weary of giving him to much money or years. As much of a beast Ben is on defense he absolutely kills the offense. We have essentially being playing 4 vs 5 on the offensive side of the ball since he has been here. Also he has had issues with our last three coaches Carlisle, Brown and Flip. If Ben was 25 I would have no problem with giving him a blank check but at 31 I would much rather go in a different direction then give him a ridiculous contract.



what different direction? darko?


----------



## Brian.

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Cyanobacteria said:


> As someone who is turning 33 later this summer, I find all of this talk about Wallace being too old to be quite offensive. Mind your elders, you whipper-snappers!


In regular life that isn't old but the NBA is different.

A guy like Shaq can just reach up and pull down a rebound. Ben though is no taller then 6'8. He relies heavily on his speed and jumping ability to pull down rebounds and block shots. Once that is gone he is going to be completely useless. Thankfully he hasn't had any serious injuries to this point, but it has always been something that I have worried about because of the way he plays the game. 

I really can't fault Ben for what he is doing. He knows this is his last oppotunity to get paid. I know I would do the same thing. He already has a ring and you guys are a pretty good team. I wouldn't be at all shocked if he signed with you guys.


----------



## Brian.

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



paxman said:


> what different direction? darko?


Its kinda sad that he managed to complain his way out of Detroit before this. He didn't want to play here though and his trade value wasn't rising while he was on the bench so we had to trade him.

We would probably start Sheed at the 5 and Dice at the 4 and while we will be an awful rebounding team our offense will be much improved. We wouldn't have much in the way of depth but we have some trade bait in the way of two first rounders in next years draft. If we get Bonzi for the MLE this team will be at near the top of the EC with or without Ben.


----------



## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls!

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Brian said:


> In regular life that isn't old but the NBA is different.
> 
> A guy like Shaq can just reach up and pull down a rebound. Ben though is no taller then 6'8. He relies heavily on his speed and jumping ability to pull down rebounds and block shots. Once that is gone he is going to be completely useless. Thankfully he hasn't had any serious injuries to this point, but it has always been something that I have worried about because of the way he plays the game.
> 
> I really can't fault Ben for what he is doing. He knows this is his last oppotunity to get paid. I know I would do the same thing. He already has a ring and you guys are a pretty good team. I wouldn't be at all shocked if he signed with you guys.


So, how do you compare him to Rodman, then? Dennis was probably no bigger than 6'6" or 6'7", and helped the Bulls to 3 championships, all the while being 36,37 and 38! Yes, we know all about MJ and Pip, but nonetheless, Dennis boarded and defended very well. Heck, he even D'd up Shaq who was in his prime, and didn't do so badly....


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Brian said:


> You would be suprised with the reaction from Detroit fans right now. Most fans want him back but are weary of giving him to much money or years. As much of a beast Ben is on defense he absolutely kills the offense. We have essentially being playing 4 vs 5 on the offensive side of the ball since he has been here. Also he has had issues with our last three coaches Carlisle, Brown and Flip. If Ben was 25 I would have no problem with giving him a blank check but at 31 I would much rather go in a different direction then give him a ridiculous contract.


We played 3 on 5 on offense last year, so Ben would be a nonissue, he can catch the ball and dunk good, he knows how to get the ball in the hole when he gets it.


----------



## kulaz3000

im guessing if we get Wallace, it would be wise for Chandler to give up his no.3 to him. So maybe Tyson can get a fresh start with a fresh new number.


----------



## dsouljah9

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

_:::crawls from under rock:::_ 

This is a non-issue; we are trying to sign BEN WALLACE!!! Defensive player of the year, all star, top rebounder, shot blocker. You throw more than the kitchen sink at him, you throw the whole damn house!!!! 

The fact that Ben is actually considering the Bulls is a testament to both Pax and Skiles. When we were in this position in 2000, players avoided us like the plague, now we have a guy like Ben seriously considering us! I say woo the hell out of him!!! Adding him to the roster that we have now makes us a serious contender in the Eastern Conference, you pass up on that for Joel Pryzbilla uke:

Yes, he's 31(turning 32 in September) but barring injury, he will be effective for the life of the contract. He would be an instant attraction and would garner some endorsment deals.

All in all, he is worth the investment and I would be estatic if he were to become a Bull. So, throw everything we've got at him. It's use it or lose with the cap space, so why not go whole hog on a guy like Ben Wallace?

_:::crawls back under rock:::_


----------



## T.Shock

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



dsouljah9 said:


> _:::crawls from under rock:::_
> 
> This is a non-issue; we are trying to sign BEN WALLACE!!! Defensive player of the year, all star, top rebounder, shot blocker. You throw more than the kitchen sink at him, you throw the whole damn house!!!!
> 
> The fact that Ben is actually considering the Bulls is a testament to both Pax and Skiles. When we were in this position in 2000, players avoided us like the plague, now we have a guy like Ben seriously considering us! I say woo the hell out of him!!! Adding him to the roster that we have now makes us a serious contender in the Eastern Conference, you pass up on that for Joel Pryzbilla uke:
> 
> Yes, he's 31(turning 32 in September) but barring injury, he will be effective for the life of the contract. He would be an instant attraction and would garner some endorsment deals.
> 
> All in all, he is worth the investment and I would be estatic if he were to become a Bull. So, throw everything we've got at him. It's use it or lose with the cap space, so why not go whole hog on a guy like Ben Wallace?
> 
> _:::crawls back under rock:::_


No need to hide. Pryzbilla is basically a poor man's Wallace and don't really see much of a difference between him and Chandler. I'd prefer Nazr and Nene to Pryz honestly.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

My goodness, the thought of this is making me happier by the minute.

Wallace had a bad year last year but I FULLY expect him to have an oustanding year next season, Bull or not.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

As far as the age issue, heres a better way to decribe it. Okay, Shakira's going to be 30 soon, and she still looks fine, and will probaly look good for the next 10 years with minimal decline. Now Britney on the other hand, she's had a history of white trash with that 49 hour wedding, now this is like past injuries. Now Shakira takes care of her body really good, so the decline will be minimal. Now Britney on the other hand doesn't, has past issues of trashiness, and doesn't take care of her body as well. As you can see, Britney is breaking down at a younger age.

Now I talked to my source within the Bulls organization, and he said that it would be intriguing to have Ben Wallace on the team, and it would make them a better team.


----------



## narek

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Now I talked to my source within the Bulls organization, and he said that it would be intriguing to have Ben Wallace on the team, and it would make them a better team.


You're source is so wise. :biggrin: 


David Schuster reported just said the meeting was in Detroit - Reinsdorf, Skiles and Pax fly to Detroit this morning.


----------



## LuolDeng

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



narek said:


> David Schuster reported just said the meeting was in Detroit - Reinsdorf, Skiles and Pax fly to Detroit this morning.


That doesn't sound very promising to me. If he was genuinely interested in coming here wouldn't he make the trip? Maybe he is just doing what he has to do to drive up the Pistons offer.

Or maybe I am reading to much into this.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



KHinrich12 said:


> That doesn't sound very promising to me. If he was genuinely interested in coming here wouldn't he make the trip? Maybe he is just doing what he has to do to drive up the Pistons offer.
> 
> Or maybe I am reading to much into this.


Or maybe Reindsorf wanted to use his private jet?


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Ron Cey said:


> Also, I don't care if its a five year deal. I'd prefer 4 years, but don't want to get too caught up in that.
> 
> If you can sign Ben Wallace to this team, you do it. We contend for the conference championship next season and beyond. When he starts to decline in a few years, he takes on more of an AD role as our young guys are entering their prime.
> 
> This is the move. Give him whatever he wants. Every damn penny.


It doesn't strike you as a bit odd that the Pistons aren't willing to give him whatever he wants?



sloth said:


> Imagine this, game 7, NBA Finals, 33 seconds left, Bulls down 82-80. We need a stop, we put in a lineup of Kirk, Sefolosha, Thomas, Wallace, and Chandler. We get the stop, timeout, abou 7 seconds left. Bring in a lineup of Kirk, Ben, , Deng, Nocioni, Thomas. Thoams inbounds, he finds Nocioni, to Gordon at the top of the key, THREE!!!!! BULLS ARE THE CHAMPIONS.
> 
> Thats why we need to sign Ben Wallace.


Imagine this, game 7, NBA Finals, 33 seconds left, Bulls down 82-80. We need a stop, we put in a lineup of Kirk, Sefolosha, Thomas, Wallace, and Chandler. We get the stop, no timeouts left, about 7 seconds left. The other team immediately fouls Wallace. He duffs the free throws. They're the champions.

Thats why we need to sign Ben Wallace?

------------------------------------------------

Look, I'm not saying we shouldn't make him an offer, but the unreasoned give him whatever he wants and don't bother thinking about the ramifications approach isn't working for me. Like everything else, this needs to be done sensible, and with an eye towards making sure our team is nicely balanced. If we're replacing Chandler with an older, better version, we better have an idea for bringing in someone complementary to make it work.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



MikeDC said:


> It doesn't strike you as a bit odd that the Pistons aren't willing to give him whatever he wants?


Same thing could be about the Dallas/Steve Nash situation.

They thought he was getting old & wasn't worth what he asked (at the time). I'm not saying this situation is exactly the same but it's very similar.


----------



## FanOfAll8472

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Now I talked to my source within the Bulls organization, and he said that it would be intriguing to have Ben Wallace on the team, and it would make them a better team.


What great feedback from your "source". That's all your "source within the Bulls organization" could tell you? I think your source could be aptly named "Captain Obvious".



> My goodness, the thought of this is making me happier by the minute.
> 
> Wallace had a bad year last year but I FULLY expect him to have an oustanding year next season, Bull or not.


Was his bad year because of nagging injuries? Because of his confrontation with Flip over offensive touches and his lack of motivation? Because of a decline due to age? I'm not sure, but I'm wary, like many here and the Pistons organization, of signing Ben Wallace to a max deal. I'm not worried about age itself, but decline in production possibly due to age. Sure, Ben Wallace still had fantastic stats last year, but it was extremely clear throughout the year and in the playoffs that he lacked the same activity, energy, and intensity last year. The longest contract I want for Big Ben is 4 years. I wouldn't mind paying him $12 mil/year though anything around $14 mil is the highest.


----------



## narek

A report on the meeting:

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/14948958.htm



> DETROIT - Chicago Bulls coach Scott Skiles and general manager John Paxson wasted no time launching their bring-Ben-Wallace-to-Chicago campaign.
> 
> Wallace's agent Arn Tellem said Skiles and Paxson came to Detroit on Saturday to meet with Wallace, the Pistons' longtime center who is the brightest star on the free-agent market that opened Saturday.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Pistons are in a waiting mode. The Pistons want to see what kind of interest Wallace, an unrestricted free agent, gets around the league and hear what kind of contract Wallace wants.
> 
> Team president Joe Dumars said the two talked Saturday and that right now, it's all up to Wallace.
> 
> It is believed the Pistons are prepared to make Wallace the highest paid Piston by offering a four-year contract worth $11 million or $12 million a year. But as an unrestricted free agent, any team can sign Wallace, if they have money to do so.
> 
> Tellem did not comment on the tone or the content of the meeting with Chicago, but reportedly the Bulls could offer up to $70 million for five seasons. That's likely too rich for Detroit's blood.
> 
> But one team general manager said Saturday that he doubted any team would offer a five-year deal, citing the 36-year-old rule. That rule mandates that when a player turns 36, his salary in that season counts against the salary cap evenly over the other years on his contract. Wallace will turn 32 in September, so a five-year deal would end when he is 36.


----------



## Bullsky

So, will we know if he is in or out by tonight?


----------



## BG7

Does the Mercury News read bbb.net? I basically said that we'd be able to give Ben more money in a 4 year than 5 year deal, and I don't think a beatwriter could come up with that on their own.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



FanOfAll8472 said:


> What great feedback from your "source". That's all your "source within the Bulls organization" could tell you? I think your source could be aptly named "Captain Obvious".


Why do you have a beef with my source?


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



FanOfAll8472 said:


> Was his bad year because of nagging injuries? Because of his confrontation with Flip over offensive touches and his lack of motivation? Because of a decline due to age? I'm not sure, but I'm wary, like many here and the Pistons organization, of signing Ben Wallace to a max deal. I'm not worried about age itself, but decline in production possibly due to age. Sure, Ben Wallace still had fantastic stats last year, but it was extremely clear throughout the year and in the playoffs that he lacked the same activity, energy, and intensity last year. The longest contract I want for Big Ben is 4 years. I wouldn't mind paying him $12 mil/year though anything around $14 mil is the highest.


I'm firmly in the same camp as you.


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Why do you have a beef with my source?


:laugh: :laugh:


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



The ROY said:


> Same thing could be about the Dallas/Steve Nash situation.
> 
> They thought he was getting old & wasn't worth what he asked (at the time). I'm not saying this situation is exactly the same but it's very similar.


They are very similar. And while I'm not saying Nash is ****, it's also true that when I look at the Suns I see some real issues. I don't see them as a really legitimate contender. They're gimmicky, and Nash in particular is aging and plays no defense. His high salary is leading them to have a heck of a hard time re-signing their young players.

The Bulls with Ben would almost seem to be a bizzaro world equivalent of the Suns, bringing in a guy who's just like Nash, except all defense and no offense.

That's my problem, It's possible to "contend" with a guy who's a really fabulous player in one phase of the game, but sucks in the other, but when you get to the final four or so, other good teams tend to be able to take advantage of playing teams with one-way players. 

That's not to say we shouldn't want him... he obviously helps, but they need to be sure they are willing and able to put the right guys around him, rather than just blindly offering him the world.


----------



## dsouljah9

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



MikeDC said:


> Imagine this, game 7, NBA Finals, 33 seconds left, Bulls down 82-80. We need a stop, we put in a lineup of Kirk, Sefolosha, Thomas, Wallace, and Chandler. We get the stop, no timeouts left, about 7 seconds left. *The other team immediately fouls Wallace*. He duffs the free throws. They're the champions.


The other team can't do that if he doesn't have the ball. You can't intentionally foul in the last two minutes of the game. If they did, we would be awarded a free throw and the ball out of bounds. You have to foul the ball handler.

_:::crawls back under rock:::_


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Peja Stojakavic got a 12 million per a year 5 year contract from the Hornets. I didn't know they had capspace. Pistons need to reevaluate what Ben's worth.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



dsouljah9 said:


> The other team can't do that if he doesn't have the ball. You can't intentionally foul in the last two minutes of the game. If they did, we would be awarded a free throw and the ball out of bounds. You have to foul the ball handler.
> 
> _:::crawls back under rock:::_


Yeah, ok, but did ya watch the Piston's vs. Heat series?


----------



## paxman

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



MikeDC said:


> Yeah, ok, but did ya watch the Piston's vs. Heat series?



quit making him have to re-crawl out from that enormously heavy rock. it isn't polite.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Karl Malone won an MVP at 37, Mutumbo won a DPOY at 37 (or 42, he might be 5 years older than listed). 37 seems to be the magic number, after that, its all downhill. Please, no Shaq comparison, Shaq has a horrible body fat I assume, while Ben's is as good as good is.


----------



## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> Yeah, ok, but did ya watch the Piston's vs. Heat series?


Saunders is an idiot, leaves Ben in to get hacked, the time teams can't hack him anymore, he takes him out.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



step said:


> Saunders is an idiot, leaves Ben in to get hacked, the time teams can't hack him anymore, he takes him out.


And if anyone has a tape of that specefic game on TIVO, upload it, and I can pinpoint the part in the game where Ben's heart broke, and made up his decision that he's leaving Detroit.


----------



## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> And if anyone has a tape of that specefic game on TIVO, upload it, and I can pinpoint the part in the game where Ben's heart broke


Quality Simpsons!


> and made up his decision that he's leaving Detroit.


Indeed.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



MikeDC said:


> Imagine this, game 7, NBA Finals, 33 seconds left, Bulls down 82-80. We need a stop, we put in a lineup of Kirk, Sefolosha, Thomas, Wallace, and Chandler. We get the stop, no timeouts left, about 7 seconds left. The other team immediately fouls Wallace. He duffs the free throws. They're the champions.
> 
> Thats why we need to sign Ben Wallace?


Ok, let's say Shaq's a free agent and the Bulls are interested...

Imagine this, game 7, NBA Finals, 33 seconds left, Bulls down 82-80. We need a stop, we put in a lineup of Kirk, Sefolosha, Thomas, Shaq, and Chandler. We get the stop, no timeouts left, about 7 seconds left. The other team immediately fouls Shaq. He duffs the free throws. They're the champions.

That's why we need to sign Shaq?


----------



## DaBabyBullz

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Karl Malone won an MVP at 37, Mutumbo won a DPOY at 37 (or 42, he might be 5 years older than listed). 37 seems to be the magic number, after that, its all downhill. Please, no Shaq comparison, Shaq has a horrible body fat I assume, while Ben's is as good as good is.


Those 3 are an entirely different concept with aging than Big Ben. Those 3 were all very big and powerful, and guys like that don't lose it as much. Ben on the other hand is all athleticism as he is vastly undersized, so that would really screw things up with him if his athleticism went. Those big guys can get by without as much athleticism when they're older thus getting the benefit of the calls that all 3 get/got. Ben's main asset is his athleticism, which will go with age, size doesn't.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



DaBabyBullz said:


> Those 3 are an entirely different concept with aging than Big Ben. Those 3 were all very big and powerful, and guys like that don't lose it as much. Ben on the other hand is all athleticism as he is vastly undersized, so that would really screw things up with him if his athleticism went. Those big guys can get by without as much athleticism when they're older thus getting the benefit of the calls that all 3 get/got. Ben's main asset is his athleticism, which will go with age, size doesn't.


7'1" is undersized?


----------



## anorexorcist

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Let me be the first to say I really really really hope this doesn't happen.

I am just freaking out at the possibility next summer--we have absolutely nothing to throw at Gordon, Hinrich, Deng, or Nocioni when their contracts are up.

The only way I would support this--

Trade Deng for a big to pair up with Wallace.

Agree to us trading TC for Wallace in a sign and trade. As far as I'm concerned with the addition of Wallace and a stronger big we won't need Chandler anymore.

No damage done, salary wise.


----------



## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> 7'1" is undersized?


Ben is 6'9"


----------



## Treal City

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/IMG/OJ_Mayo-arton22183-290x250.jpg


pax is super stupid for this signing. Wallace is overrated. I watch him everyday and he will lose the game on the ft line!


----------



## madox

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



anorexorcist said:


> Let me be the first to say I really really really hope this doesn't happen.
> 
> I am just freaking out at the possibility next summer--we have absolutely nothing to throw at Gordon, Hinrich, Deng, or Nocioni when their contracts are up.


Paxson isn't gonna sign Wallace without looking ahead. It's not like he'll just wake up one summer day and go, "Oh crap, I forgot we have to re-sign Deng."

If the Bulls are lucky enough to get Wallace be glad. Paxson knows what his budget is.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



step said:


> Ben is 6'9"


7'1" Darko next to 6'9" Ben

<img src="http://www.onlinesports.com/images/phf-aagc012.jpg">

7'1" Ben next to 6'11" Rasheed

<img src="http://svt.se/content/1/c6/22/06/39/pistons_290.jpg">


----------



## TheDarkPrince

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight toning*



step said:


> Ben is 6'9"


But built like a tank people seem to think Ben isn't strong.Rodman was 6'7 and about 215-220 how many guys do you remember overpowering him as a Bull?IMO we get Ben and trade Tyson if we have to but guys like Ben you don't pass up.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight toning*

If we trade Tyson, it should be the knicks for Frye or Curry and a 2008 pickswap so we can get OJ Mayo.


----------



## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

:rofl: Sloth, you are a classic. Damnit, I need to spread around the rep, that is well worth it though.


----------



## TheDarkPrince

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight toning*



sloth said:


> If we trade Tyson, it should be the knicks for Frye or Curry and a 2008 picswap so we can get OJ Mayo.


Yup the Knicks would take Tyson in a heartbeat since they seem to trying to build the Bulls eastcoast. :rotf:


----------



## FanOfAll8472

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Why do you have a beef with my source?


Got milk?



> Karl Malone won an MVP at 37, Mutumbo won a DPOY at 37 (or 42, he might be 5 years older than listed). 37 seems to be the magic number, after that, its all downhill. Please, no Shaq comparison, Shaq has a horrible body fat I assume, while Ben's is as good as good is.


This is what I mean when I say that I'm worried about age itself, but declining production due to age. Obviously, Malone's numbers were down the 2nd year he won MVP, but on the court, he still looked like a fantastic player. The difference between Malone and Wallace is that Wallace's game is completely predicated on his athleticism. He's a smart player defensively, but everything he does offensively and defensively is based on his quickness, reflexes, jumping ability, and energy. That was clearly missing last year. While sharp shooting, basketball smarts, or vision do not wane by age, athletic ability decreases significantly by age. I'm worried that Ben Wallace has hit his peak and has begun his descent, athletically. And that means his production will decline as well.


----------



## T.Shock

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

I think I broke the salary numbers down well enough that if the Bulls throw the max or near max at Wallace it'll put us about 2 or 3 mil under the cap this year. We prolly won't be able to re-sign Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, and Nocioni to long-term deals, but we should be able to get two out of the three especially since Deng is unlikely to command a huge salary in the open market unless he absolutely blows up. My guess is that Paxson will do everything he can to re-sign Hinrich and Nocioni, probably make a fair offer to Gordon and see if he really is frustrated enough to leave and probably be short on re-signing Luol.


----------



## Bulls4Life

Could Tyson be part of a deal to get Marion?????

It's strange all the talk lately about how we got the 2 guys in the draft that Phoenix wanted. Maybe Pax it gonna trade Tyrus, Tyson & Thabo to the Suns for Marion and it's contingent upon whether or not Ben signs with us. If he signs the trade for Marion is done and if Ben doesn't sign, we keep the 2 picks. 

:whoknows:


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Frankensteiner said:


> Ok, let's say Shaq's a free agent and the Bulls are interested...
> 
> Imagine this, game 7, NBA Finals, 33 seconds left, Bulls down 82-80. We need a stop, we put in a lineup of Kirk, Sefolosha, Thomas, Shaq, and Chandler. We get the stop, no timeouts left, about 7 seconds left. The other team immediately fouls Shaq. He duffs the free throws. They're the champions.
> 
> That's why we need to sign Shaq?


 
http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3606935#post3606935



Frankensteiner said:


> Billups is the only Piston this year that could be considered superstar level.


Why are you advocating giving whatever he wants to a guy you don't even consider a superstar?

Regarding your Shaq retort, the answer is the same as with Wallace. You sign him, but you do it with your eyes open, and you understand that you can't stop spending money (and trade away your young players for PJ Brown to avoid the luxury tax) because you're getting a player who, while very good, has critical limitations and is aging, so you better not skimp on putting guys around him.

The only difference is that while that's true of Shaq as well as Wallace, Shaq is still quite a bit better player than Ben is.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



T.Shock said:


> I think I broke the salary numbers down well enough that if the Bulls throw the max or near max at Wallace it'll put us about 2 or 3 mil under the cap this year. We prolly won't be able to re-sign Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, and Nocioni to long-term deals, but we should be able to get two out of the three especially since Deng is unlikely to command a huge salary in the open market unless he absolutely blows up. My guess is that Paxson will do everything he can to re-sign Hinrich and Nocioni, probably make a fair offer to Gordon and see if he really is frustrated enough to leave and probably be short on re-signing Luol.


The Bulls have enough money (especially if they're winning) to sign everyone if they choose to.

It's a matter of willingness, not financial ability.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



MikeDC said:


> Why are you advocating giving whatever he wants to a guy you don't even consider a superstar?


First, there's plenty of guys in the league who are not superstars yet have max or neax max contracts. You've talked about acquiring Lamar Odom who has a max deal despite not being anything close to a superstar level player. Ben Wallace is better than Odom. 



> Regarding your Shaq retort, the answer is the same as with Wallace. You sign him, but you do it with your eyes open, and you understand that you can't stop spending money (and trade away your young players for PJ Brown to avoid the luxury tax) because you're getting a player who, while very good, has critical limitations and is aging, so you better not skimp on putting guys around him.


My point was you're not paying Shaq or Wallace for their free throw shooting. Both are still tremendously effective players despite their limitations. Yeah, sure, I guess the Bulls would be screwed on the off-chance they're in a game 7 of the Finals, down by 2, needing to make a stop, and Skiles getting caught with his pants down by not having any timeouts at the end of the game... 



> The only difference is that while that's true of Shaq as well as Wallace, Shaq is still quite a bit better player than Ben is.


Shaq is a top 10 player, on presence alone. Ben Wallace is a top 30 player. That's good enough for me. And I have enough faith in Pax to trust him in managing our team's payroll.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Do to my outside sources, it looks like we are going the 4 year at about 70 million route. Detroit is unlikely to match.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Looks like Wallace is on his way in then.


----------



## anorexorcist

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Do to my outside sources, it looks like we are going the 4 year at about 70 million route. Detroit is unlikely to match.


i hope your H.I.P.S. (highly insider prohoops source) don't lie :biggrin: 

although 70 million...jeez.


----------



## LuolDeng

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> Do to my outside sources, it looks like we are going the 4 year at about 70 million route. Detroit is unlikely to match.


I hoper your source is reliable, even though 70/4 is a little steep.


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



anorexorcist said:


> i hope your H.I.P.S. (highly insider prohoops source) don't lie :biggrin:
> 
> although 70 million...jeez.


If you read my post, this one was from an outside source.

My inside source said that Ben would make the team better.

My inside sources also told me that we would draft LaMarcus Aldrdige #2, was I right, was I right? Also with the Quincy Douby promise at 19. I might not be Harvey Hornet, but my H.I.P.S don't lie.

My H.O.P.S. educate.


----------



## UMfan83

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



MikeDC said:


> Imagine this, game 7, NBA Finals, 33 seconds left, Bulls down 82-80. We need a stop, we put in a lineup of Kirk, Sefolosha, Thomas, Wallace, and Chandler. We get the stop, no timeouts left, about 7 seconds left. The other team immediately fouls Wallace. He duffs the free throws. They're the champions.


Imagine Shaq instead of Wallace and then look at their combined 5 championships and tell me how likely that is to happen. How many times in Shaqs 5 NBA Finals appearences has a game came down to his FT attempts. The only one I can remember is game 3 this year, and he hit them. I don't really think thats a huge factor to consider.


----------



## draft tyrus

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

ben will hold up better than most players his age because of his near-perfect physical condition.

size is irrelevant. he has a 7'2" wingspan (IIRC) and is already a proven defensive commodity. now is not the time to be concerned over that.

what's with a 16 year old having "inside sources"?


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Frankensteiner said:


> First, there's plenty of guys in the league who are not superstars yet have max or neax max contracts. You've talked about acquiring Lamar Odom who has a max deal despite not being anything close to a superstar level player. Ben Wallace is better than Odom.


I believe my talk regarding the idea of acquiring Odom was relatively negative.



> My point was you're not paying Shaq or Wallace for their free throw shooting. Both are still tremendously effective players despite their limitations. Yeah, sure, I guess the Bulls would be screwed on the off-chance they're in a game 7 of the Finals, down by 2, needing to make a stop, and Skiles getting caught with his pants down by not having any timeouts at the end of the game...


... and the general point that you have to take your best rebounder (both offensive and defensive) out of the game every time down the court at crunch time and generally change the way you play.

Couple that with the cumulative effect of having a guy who can't make free throws on the court for the rest of the game (and in Ben's case, can't do much else on offense), and it makes a significant impact. Again, a team better have a way figured out to deal with it. Simply saying "he's not paid to make free throws" sounds pretty silly when you're talking about giving a guy $60M, but it really sounds silly if, because you pay him that $60M, you don't have anything left to pay someone else to make the free throws.

Perhaps a bad example in Tyson's case, but the general idea is valid.



> Shaq is a top 10 player, on presence alone. Ben Wallace is a top 30 player. That's good enough for me. And I have enough faith in Pax to trust him in managing our team's payroll.


Who said that? Was it Scottie Pippen?


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

I really hope the Bulls don't sign Wallace. It reeks of desperation to finally land that one big FA instead of shrewd, long term team building. It would be a cigar for Paxson to celebrate having turned the team around to the point where FA who would not sign here before are now willing to take the money. 

Are people even reading the posts from Pistons fans? His game is slipping and as an unskilled player who relies on athleticism for the majority of his production, when age catches up, he's going to fall hard. Comparing him to Rodman is as silly as comparing Tyrus Thomas to Rodman. Rodman was unique in almost every sense of the word. 

Plus, this will likely be the last FA splurge the Bulls will be able to make in a while. With a core as young as they have it is pure foolishness to spend it all on a player who won't be around for the majority of the core players primes.


----------



## Mr. T

The Detroit article was great humor. 

So it's up to Ben whether he wants to get the Pistons a good young player to ease their pain? Funny, I see that as being up to Paxson. If Paxson says Detroit gets nothing, so be it. If Wallace doesn't like it, so be it. Can anyone point to a single trade where the player was unhappy with what his former team was gonna get in return so he nixed the deal? Ludicrous. Ben, you better be listening. If you aren't the first guy to place your former team above your new team your image is gonna take a real hit in Detroit and around the league! LMAO.

I've always thought S&T's had two purposes. For the player, he signs the contract with the existing team meaning he gets the deal only the players team can offer (years + % increases). For the teams, the players team gets something in return while the receiving team gets to move payroll to help make room for the new acquisition. That has always been my understanding, but I'm no CBA guy. This player loyalty angle for the team and city is new for me. Maybe that was perceived to have happened in the past, but I'd be more likely to believe it was more about $ for the players and unloading $ for the receiving team.

Another misconception seems to be that Wallace has too much loyalty, etc. to leave and the Bulls offering $14M won't be enough to get him to pass up the Pistons $12M since he's comfortable there. We've had discussions on this board where nobody would have blamed one of our players for leaving if there was $1M difference total in the life of the contract and Ben is gonna leave $8-10M on the table? Sorry, he'd be certifiably nuts and another first. Who has passed up $10M over the same # of years to stay with their current team?

Is this what its really come to in Detroit? Shameless begging? Coupled with their incessant whining on the floor and I'd say Detroit basketball is just downright unpleasant.

As I said earlier - no Chandler. If they want Duhon, Sweetney and filler that's fine. If Chandler is dealt it better be for a Marion or Odom, etc. to go alongside Wallace as a better offensive option.

Seems like the Dumars is golden theory is going the way of the Kiki Vandeweghe story. He's dealt his young core, he's had difficulty with 3 straight coaches and hard times may be just around the corner.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



UMfan83 said:


> Imagine Shaq instead of Wallace and then look at their combined 5 championships and tell me how likely that is to happen. How many times in Shaqs 5 NBA Finals appearences has a game came down to his FT attempts. The only one I can remember is game 3 this year, and he hit them. I don't really think thats a huge factor to consider.


I dunno... it seemed to be a factor in Detroit losing in the conference finals. And a factor in them losing last year.

And it pushed certainly didn't help the Heat this year, it just seemed that Dallas had them on the ropes and then lost their nerve.

One thing is that I don't think the game is called the same way it was back when Shaq and Kobe were piling up the championships. 

Anyway, my point isn't to say it can't be done, just to say that you can't just assume everything is going to work. Shaq had the benefit of playing with super clutch guys like Wade and Kobe. Ben had the benefit of playing with a whole set of very potent offensive players (Billups, Rip, and Sheed).


----------



## different_13

About the former player not being happy with the deal - apparantly that's how Wallace got to Detroit in the first place - Grant Hill felt bad about leaving the team, so arranged a sign-n-trade..

for 4 years, i'd say he's worth it, you can contend for the East for sure, and i think the Bulls owner will pay-up when the extensions come up


----------



## narek

McGraw on the trip:Bulls pay Wallace a visit  



> The main purpose of the Bulls’ visit was to sit face-to-face with Wallace and try to judge whether he was at all serious about relocating to Chicago. If not, the Bulls will move on to the next candidate.
> 
> But if Wallace seems open to joining the Pistons’ Central Division rival, the Bulls’ plan was to make a contract offer and try to coax a quick decision from the 6-foot-8 center.
> 
> Signing Wallace is considered a long shot, because the Bulls don’t figure to break the bank with a contract offer. Reports in Detroit have the Pistons willing to pay around $12 million per season for four years.
> 
> Based on last year’s salary-cap figure, the Bulls have $14 million to spend on free agents. That number could rise or shrink, depending on where this year’s cap is set.
> 
> If the Bulls started at $14 million, they could offer Wallace as much as $81.2 million over five years and the Pistons would no doubt bid Big Ben farewell.
> 
> But while the Bulls would love to have Wallace and believe he could turn them into an Eastern Conference contender next season, they probably aren’t willing to spend much more than the Pistons.


and



> Hill rejected the Bulls almost immediately, but that summer’s failure was enhanced by the Bulls waiting around for answers from free-agent targets Tracy McGrady, Eddie Jones and Tim Thomas — eventually getting turned down by all three — while ignoring quality players such as Wallace.
> 
> That’s why the Bulls are set on getting an answer quickly from Wallace. Their top priority in free agency is adding a center. If not Wallace, the Bulls will move on to Portland’s Joel Przybilla.


So whatever happens, it's going to happen quickly. I think.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> Pistons offer Wallace 4-year, $48 million deal
> Sunday, July 02, 2006
> 
> By A. Sherrod Blakely
> 
> AUBURN HILLS -- The Detroit Pistons got the ball rolling on negotiations with Ben Wallace on Saturday, offering the unrestricted free agent a four-year contract worth $48 million.
> 
> In presenting the proposed deal to Wallace's agent, Arn Tellum, Detroit offered Wallace a contract that would make him the highest-paid player in Pistons history.
> 
> Tellum was one of the few agents the Pistons spoke with on Saturday, the first day of free agency in the NBA. That's because the Pistons have to determine whether they can re-sign Wallace, a four-time All-Star, before they pursue other free agents.
> 
> Aware of the Pistons' priority regarding Wallace, agents didn't expect a call back from Detroit on Saturday.
> 
> Bill Duffy represents several of the more prominent free agents this summer, such as ex-Piston Mike James, Drew Gooden, Fred Jones, Michael Olowokandi (who played for Pistons coach Flip Saunders in Minnesota), and Speedy Claxton, who Joe Dumars, Detroit's president of basketball operations, is interested in.
> 
> "Joe's inundated with Ben Wallace right now," said Duffy, who also represents Pistons forward Tayshaun Prince. "That's where his focus is right now. We agents understand that."


Looks like we have them beat


----------



## madox

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



TripleDouble said:


> I really hope the Bulls don't sign Wallace. It reeks of desperation to finally land that one big FA instead of shrewd, long term team building. It would be a cigar for Paxson to celebrate having turned the team around to the point where FA who would not sign here before are now willing to take the money.


I don't understand this point of view at all. *This is the last year the Bulls will have capspace in a long time. * 

So signing Ben Wallace reeks of desperation but signing Joel "I'm good for 35 games a year" Priz is some statesmanlike move? Or do you suggest not using the capspace at all?

Personally I say get the best players you can. And no other FA is even close to Ben. That's not even debatable.


----------



## kulaz3000

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



madox said:


> I don't understand this point of view at all. *This is the last year the Bulls will have capspace in a long time. *
> 
> So signing Ben Wallace reeks of desperation but signing Joel "I'm good for 35 games a year" Priz is some statesmanlike move? Or do you suggest not using the capspace at all?
> 
> Personally I say get the best players you can. And no other FA is even close to Ben. That's not even debatable.


I agree. Id prefer giving Wallace the money over Pryzibilla any day of the week. Wallace at 40 would still be better at Pryzbilla at 20. 

But id like to hear Paxson squash this Chandler first Brown trade talks. Im feeling a little disconcerted with people saying its going to happen. Chandler and Wallace is alot better than Brown and Wallace. I don't want to hear the Brown will be a good tutor for Tyrus Thomas talk, if we get Wallace he'll be more than enough of an example for him.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Even if you don't like the end result should we acquire Ben Wallace (i.e. not enough frontline offense) let's not forget that this is the off-season and trades happen all the time. We can always tweak the roster as needed. Our end product doesn't have to be TyThomas, Chandler, Ben Wallace, and Malik Allen on the front line. I just think that since we have the rare opportunity to use cap space for something, you can't pass up the chance of landing an asset like Ben Wallace. Even if he doesn't fit, at least the cap room has become something tangible that can be traded later on for something of value.


----------



## different_13

even more so, because they're much more similar athleticism (and slightly skill) wise.

Plus the team's a lot better with Chandler rather than Brown, I think.


----------



## compsciguy78

Signing Ben Wallace is going to put the Bulls into contender status in the East next year. Will they be able resign Hinrich, Nocioni, and Gordon in the future? 

Is the risk of winning next year worth signing Wallace. Hell yes!!! 


Look at the parity of the league and you realize any team can win the championship. Don't expect those 3peat years of MJ. You have to build for the present! Build to win now!


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



madox said:


> *This is the last year the Bulls will have capspace in a long time. *


I'm not thinking this through all the way, and taking the lazy way by asking:

Is this true?

If the Chandler for PJ Brown expiring contract goes through, does that open up C Space for 2007 and beyond?


----------



## Bulls4Life

Sporting News radio reported that it's official:

*The Detroit Pistons have given Ben Wallace an offer of:* 

4 years, 48 million.


Pax, the ball is in your court now!

:wait:


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I'm not thinking this through all the way, and taking the lazy way by asking:
> 
> Is this true?
> 
> If the Chandler for PJ Brown expiring contract goes through, does that open up C Space for 2007 and beyond?


No. The additional salaries for other players kick in and limit the cap space. We lose Chandler for an expiring deal, and we just lose a young player for an old one.


----------



## Mr. T

different_13 said:


> About the former player not being happy with the deal - apparantly that's how Wallace got to Detroit in the first place - Grant Hill felt bad about leaving the team, so arranged a sign-n-trade..


I somewhat remember Detroit hating Hill and his wife during their engagement with Orlando. I don't recall a benevolent Grant stepping in to negotiate a S&T so Detroit and its fans could be happy. Link?

I did notice this from 2003 though -



> sloth
> 
> who is Grant Hill? does he play in the NBA?
> 
> http://www.spartantailgate.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-10790.html


Sloth, dat u?


----------



## BG7

That ******* gives a bad name to the name sloth.


----------



## Guest

sloth said:


> That ******* gives a bad name to the name sloth.


Uh...I wouldn't worry about *"that"* ******* in terms of giving a bad name to sloth, Dude.

Just my double copper lincolns.


----------



## Mr. T

sloth said:


> That ******* gives a bad name to the name sloth.


You sure? Just a few months later you joined BBB.NET and began your basketball education. I see an endorsement deal in it for you if you just own up to it!



> Hi, I'm sloth. Once upon a time, I was ridiculously lacking in basketball knowledge. Heck, I didn't even know who Grant Hill was! Then I found Basketball Boards .NET. The folks there were really helpful. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be the Sloth I am today without Basketball Boards .NET!
> 
> So take it frorm me, Sloth. If you wanna be in the know then you really just gotta go --- _to Basketballboards.net!_


----------



## BG7

Another point is that we like to run that stupid alleyoop play that the ball goes through Tyson's hands out of bounds. Ben would finish that dunk.


----------



## Mr. T

sloth said:


> Another point is that we like to run that stupid alleyoop play that the ball goes through Tyson's hands out of bounds. Ben would finish that dunk.


Tyson will finish now too. You're forgetting the all-new supremely grippable NBA ball. Word on the street is it's Tyson Chandler-proof.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Mr. T said:


> Tyson will finish now too. You're forgetting the all-new supremely grippable NBA ball. Word on the street is it's Tyson Chandler-proof.


:laugh:


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

What's taking so long?

Paxson needs a car salesman's mentality.

What do I have to do to get you in this car today?


----------



## Mr. T

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



sloth said:


> What's taking so long?
> 
> Paxson needs a car salesman's mentality.
> 
> What do I have to do to get you in this car today?


Maybe he's already seen to many car salesman playing in Detroit the last 6 years.

I think the most important storyline is being overlooked here.

*WHO WON THE STARE DOWN AT DINNER?*


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Mr. T said:


> Maybe he's already seen to many car salesman playing in Detroit the last 6 years.
> 
> I think the most important storyline is being overlooked here.
> 
> *WHO WON THE STARE DOWN AT DINNER?*


I heard that 2,000 perished when they got in the crossfire of the staredown.


----------



## Bullsky

Is it bad news that we havent heard anything yet?


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



Bullsky said:


> Is it bad news that we havent heard anything yet?


No, let the staring contest end before any contract can be negotiated.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

That link to one of Sloth's old posts from '03 about Grant Hill was priceless guys. What kind of name is Sloth anyway? I loved the litlte made up quote (I'm assuming it's madeup, not a real one) about "being the Sloth I am today due to BB.net or w/e lol) Hilarious. 

Back on topic, if we're offering him 70 mill over 4 years I"d pass on that crap. 17.5 mill a year for a guy that will be 36 years old for part of it, and has no Offense? That will most definitely mean a young guy is a casualty, unless we win championships in the next year or 2. Even if we do might still see some casualties. Keep Chandler, get Ben if you can, but not at the expense of the rest of our young guys.


----------



## BG7

I didn't even use the tag of sloth in 2003, that was recently changed.


----------



## schorsch554

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Again an update from the HornetsReport insider "No1Hornet" (that's not me!):

Chandler and Allen should be Hornets by tonight and Ben Wallace should be a Bull.

http://hornetsreport.com/HRForums/showthread.php?t=34771&page=1&pp=20


----------



## BG7

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

What did i tell you, my sources never fail. I'm pretty sure its 65-70 million, when Jerry tags along, things get done.


----------



## paxman

DaBabyBullz said:


> What kind of name is Sloth anyway? .


----------



## kulaz3000

paxman said:


>


thats some ugly *** whatever it is. but cute in a very ugly and disturbing way. i think i want one as a pet...


----------



## paxman

it also might be a reference to this work of art:












EDIT: oh dear heavens, i really appologize for this


----------



## kulaz3000

paxman said:


> it also might be a reference to this work of art:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: oh dear heavens, i really appologize for this


im just going to quote you. just for the pure fact i can have two of those things to look at on one screen. thats just awesome. 

there goes my apetite.


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Poll on Pistons board: 

How well did Ben Wallace meet expectations (for 2006)?

The results are not encouraging.

pistons


----------



## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

Ben "the scapegoat" Wallace


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



step said:


> Ben "the scapegoat" Wallace


Everyone chose him as the scapegoat without reason?


----------



## Salvaged Ship

Well they can blame him, but that team is finished as a title contender if Wallace leaves. They wouldn't have been in the position to contend without him. The guy was defensive player of the year. There defense plummets with him gone, and I always looked at that team as a funny cast of characters anyway. 

Detroit's identity and success came from physical, intense D. They lose that, and with Wallace gone they would drop significantly, I think they drop below the Bulls.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...ul03,1,7799915.story?coll=chi-sportsbulls-hed



> Ben Wallace has to decide whether he wants to stay comfortable in Detroit or try to make a splash with the up-and-coming Bulls.
> 
> *The 6-foot-9-inch center reportedly has an offer from the Pistons that would pay him an estimated $48 million over four years. A source close to the Bulls confirmed they also had made a four-year offer.*
> 
> Bulls general manager John Paxson and coach Scott Skiles met with Wallace on Saturday in Detroit.
> 
> *The Bulls have about $15 million in salary-cap room for next season and likely offered Wallace slightly more than the Pistons, probably $13 million to $13.5 million, for the first year.
> 
> That offer probably isn't enough to sweep Wallace off his feet. So it's up to the veteran, entering his 11th season, to decide on a career path.*
> 
> Both offers could hold attractions.
> 
> Wallace won a championship ring with the Pistons in 2004 and has helped them reach the NBA Finals twice. The Pistons went on a roll during the 2005-06 regular season, going 64-18, but came undone in the playoffs and lost to Miami in the Eastern Conference finals.
> 
> Wallace criticized coach Flip Saunders during the playoffs, raising questions about whether Wallace would return. He also raised eyebrows during the regular season because he balked at re-entering a game in Orlando.
> 
> But a source close to the Pistons said Wallace's alleged falling out with Saunders had been overblown.
> 
> Reports out of Detroit indicate Wallace would consider leaving the Pistons, for whom he has played the last six seasons, only if a winning team beat the offer.
> 
> *It is believed that a five-year offer could sway Wallace, but no team is likely to make such an offer because the NBA's "over-36" rule would require his fifth year to be prorated and counted against the team's salary cap in the previous four seasons. The rule takes effect when a player turns 36 in a deal of at least four years. Wallace will be 32 on Sept. 10.
> 
> The Bulls are the only team thought to be seriously pursuing Wallace. Philadelphia contacted his agent, Arn Tellem, but would need a sign-and-trade to make the deal. Tellem could not be reached for comment.*
> 
> The Bulls went 41-41 last season but came on strong to close the regular season and gave the Heat a tough time in the first round of the playoffs.
> 
> For the last three seasons, the Bulls have been a work in progress. But they could improve significantly with Wallace on their side.
> 
> It would weaken the division rival Pistons and possibly disrupt Detroit's cohesion. In addition, the four-time NBA defensive player of the year would erase questions about the Bulls' staying power inside.
> 
> It's no stretch to say Wallace could make the Bulls contenders for the Eastern Conference title next season, assuming the young nucleus of Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Andres Nocioni and Chris Duhon lives up to its promise. That's also assuming Wallace's durable but aging body holds up as well as it has in Detroit.
> 
> The Bulls pride themselves on their defense. Last season they had the top defensive field-goal percentage in the league at .426.
> 
> Wallace is popular in Detroit for his work ethic, especially on defense. His characteristics would resonate with Chicagoans.
> 
> He would play a bigger role on offense with the Bulls, which is said to be important to him, though he isn't considered a strong offensive player.
> 
> Last season Wallace averaged 7.3 points to go with impressive averages of 11.3 rebounds, 1.78 steals and 2.21 blocks per game. He ranked in the top 10 in the league in the latter three categories.
> 
> Wallace has two offers on the table but now needs to decide if he should stay or go.


----------



## BenDengGo

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*

how long will the negotiations take? what is the soonest/latest you'll expect a decision, and how long is pax going to wait for wallace's answer.


----------



## narek

The Detroit News sheds some light on this whole thing:

http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060703/SPORTS0102/607030342/1127



> Wallace met with Chicago Bulls general manager John Paxson and coach Scott Skiles in Detroit on Saturday. He characterized the meeting as "real good" but added that no official offer was extended.
> 
> Reports of the Bulls offering a contract starting at $13 million or $14 million were overstated, as were reports of the Bulls offering a five-year deal.
> 
> "I ain't looking for more than four years," said Wallace, who will turn 32 on Sept. 10.
> 
> Wallace said he expects to hear from several other teams, including Washington, New York and Cleveland, as early as today. Those teams don't have the salary cap space to sign Wallace, but would be looking to facilitate a sign-and-trade in case the Pistons and Wallace reach an impasse.


And the really interesting part:



> It is somewhat interesting that the Bulls would visit with Wallace and not leave him with an offer. Initially, Wallace didn't figure into the Bulls' offseason plans. They drafted Tyrus Thomas, a rugged, 6-foot-9 power forward much in the mold of Wallace with the same offensive limitations. *They have been shopping 7-footer Tyson Chandler around the league in hopes of getting a more offensive-minded big man, perhaps someone like Golden State's Troy Murphy or Utah's Carlos Boozer*, and had their free-agent sights on a less-expensive center such as Joel Przybilla or Nazr Mohammed.
> 
> *Paxson started making overtures toward Wallace only after being encouraged by owner Jerry Reinsdorf. Reinsdorf has done a lot of successful business over the years with Wallace's agent, Arn Tellem, who might have pushed for the Bulls to consider Wallace*.


So maybe we're doing Tellem a favor, and it does look like Tyson trade has been talked about, but I don't think PJ Brown fits what Pax is looking for. 

OTOH, all this about Tyson could be gossip.


----------



## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> how long will the negotiations take? what is the soonest/latest you'll expect a decision, and how long is pax going to wait for wallace's answer.


Till the 12th, that's when players can actually sign contracts I believe.


----------



## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> They have been shopping 7-footer Tyson Chandler around the league in hopes of getting a more offensive-minded big man, perhaps someone like Golden State's Troy Murphy or Utah's Carlos Boozer


We need to send a memo to Pax, just say no to Murphy!


----------



## anorexorcist

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



narek said:


> The Detroit News sheds some light on this whole thing:
> 
> http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060703/SPORTS0102/607030342/1127
> 
> 
> 
> And the really interesting part:
> 
> 
> 
> So maybe we're doing Tellem a favor, and it does look like Tyson trade has been talked about, but I don't think PJ Brown fits what Pax is looking for.
> 
> OTOH, all this about Tyson could be gossip.


You left out the biggest part:



> *Pistons' Initial Offer Irks Wallace*
> 
> Ben Wallace isn't happy with the Pistons initial offer, the Detroit News is reporting.
> 
> "It was disappointing," he said. "It was not at all what I expected."
> 
> The Pistons' initial offer was a four-year deal starting at $11.5 million and would pay him $49.6 million over four years. It would make Wallace the highest-paid player on the team next season, eclipsing Rasheed Wallace's salary by $100,000.
> 
> Pistons president Joe Dumars, reached by e-mail, said he didn't want to negotiate through the newspaper and declined comment.
> 
> "No, the door's not closed (on the Pistons)," Wallace added. "I know it's a business and they have to run their business."


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## Rhyder

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I'm not thinking this through all the way, and taking the lazy way by asking:
> 
> Is this true?
> 
> If the Chandler for PJ Brown expiring contract goes through, does that open up C Space for 2007 and beyond?


I was going to go thru some math, but its frustrating not having how much cap space we actually have and the amount of Chandler's deal. Thus, I'll attempt and logic it out.

Hypothetically, lets say we have $17mil in cap space after our 06 draft picks (I've heard a bunch of different figures, so this is just an assumption).

I and others have posted in the past that even if we made 0 moves in FA this year, we'd have to re-up Kirk and Nocioni's contracts plus our own draft pick (or NY's) next yaer. Even if we got good deals and signed Kirk to a deal starting at $7mil and Noc to a deal starting at $5mil next season, renounced the rights to Sweetney, and chose not to sign Malik Allen, and figuring in other player raises, we'd be sitting near ~$6mil in cap space for next season. Lets just say we would have the MLE amount just for ease.

Now lets assume we trade Chandler for PJ and ink Wallace to a 4-year deal starting at $13.5mil. Brown's deal washes out Chandler's for 07, but Wallace is making even more than Chandler (~$3 mil or so). That would leave us with ~$3mil in cap space. Since we don't want to be under the cap by less than the MLE, it would make sense to take on some contracts, be over the cap, and have the full MLE to play with.

I think the only way we have cap space for next season is if we trade Chandler for PJ Brown and do not sign anyone of significance ($$-wise). This could be why the rumored deal of Chandler for PJ might happen right away and is not contingent on the signing of Wallace. Wallace is our target this season, and any other FA acquisition would not put us near contender status. As a result, our consolation prize might be cap room in a great FA class next season.


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## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> Hypothetically, lets say we have $17mil in cap space after our 06 draft picks (I've heard a bunch of different figures, so this is just an assumption).


Did a thread on this ages ago, might update it with the recent pickups. I do remember it being shy of $20M, but with the movement of the draft, Khryapa and Allen, that does increase.

Bugger it, i'll do it now.

*Portland Trade*
Pick #2: $3,236,300
Pick #4: $2,620,200
Difference: +616,100
Viktor Khryapa's 06 salary: $1,172,400

Difference: - $556,300

*Philly Trade*
Pick #13: $1,349,400
Pick #16: $1,157,000

Difference: -$192,400
*Note missing the "cash" part, noone has reported how much was given that I know of*
Lastly...
Malik Allen's option for 06: $1,805,760

Costs us in the end a total of: $2,554,460

From the old thread:
Estimated salary cap - $52,000,000
Estimated cap space - $19,658,689

So in the end we have $17,104,229 to burn.
Nice assumption there Rhyder.


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## Rhyder

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



step said:


> So in the end we have $17,104,229 to burn.
> Nice assumption there Rhyder.


From the ESPN site after the confirmed Wallace signing:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2508742



> The signing clearly upgrades the Bulls' front court, albeit at an exorbitant price. The Bulls will have to use roughly $13.5 million of their projected $16.7 million in cap space to secure Wallace.


Looks like we were highballing the estimate just a touch. I really wish the NBA made all contract data available to the public. Since salary affects capability in trading so heavily, its hard for die hard fans who like play armchair GM know exactly what's going on year in and year out.


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## step

*Re: ESPN1000 reporting Pax will offer "the kitchen sink" to Wallace at midnight tonig*



> Looks like we were highballing the estimate just a touch. I really wish the NBA made all contract data available to the public. Since salary affects capability in trading so heavily, its hard for die hard fans who like play armchair GM know exactly what's going on year in and year out.


Well it's only a 400K difference, not really much when everyone is basically guessing since not even the NBA has done the numbers yet.

Plus I'm not even sure if I included Jerome Williams' trade kicker ($587K) that we still have to pay off.


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## LegoHat

+







=


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## transplant

Bump (a trois). "Bulls Sign Ben Wallace!"

Another Kumbaya moment. Critics and defenders joined hands. "Fire Pax" clubs disbanded. It was beautiful.


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