# What makes a player enter his prime?



## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

Players are supposed to be in their primes in their late 20's, but do certain players follow that criteria? 

McGrady was like 23/24 in Orlando when he lead the league by averaging 32 ppg. 

Karl Malone won MVP's in his mid 30's. Doesn't that mean he entered his prime in his mid 30's instead? 

Hakeem was in his 30's when he won championships. 

My point is that I'm not sure when a player is in his prime or passed it.


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## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

It's tough dude. I also follow football(soccer) and the prime for the greats used to be 27-31 or so but lately in that sport it has been 22-25.

I have noticed though that no matter how skilled a player is he doesn't enter his prime until he has gotten experience and know-how. So when he has that and just before he loses a step is his prime.

Sometimes though you just can't tell, a player may appear to be in his prime because he is on a great team. Or a player may seem past it because he is badly coached or with a bunch of buffoons.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

yeah. The team's success also factors into this. 

Some players might be more obvious than others such as Larry Bird - 2 rings/3 MVP's in his late 20's. People say Jordan was passed his prime during his 2nd 3-peat, but I beg to differ. I say he retired comfortably in his prime after winning the 6th title.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Jordan had clearly lost a step by the second three peat. That being said he was still the best player in the world. 


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## l0st1 (Jul 2, 2010)

I don't think there is a specific age. Most commonly maybe late 20s. But I think a player's prime is when their body has fully matured and gotten accustomed to the grind of the league. They ahve learned the game at a professional level and have basically hit that peak where more than likely they will not be changing their game and it is what it is at that point.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

you can always call out exceptions to the rule but if you look at performance expressed over the larger population I think mid-to-late 20s is still a reasonable rule of thumb - some players continue to develop and evolve their games in terms of skill (Hakeem's footwork, Mike's range, Kobe's post play) even as their physical gifts decline and so are able to extend their effectiveness into their 30s


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

Late 20's is when an athlete is supposed to enter their athletic prime, but the term 'prime' is used as a shorthand so often that people forget that a person's athletic prime isn't necessarily when a person plays their best ball.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

e-monk said:


> you can always call out exceptions to the rule but if you look at performance expressed over the larger population I think mid-to-late 20s is still a reasonable rule of thumb - some players continue to develop and evolve their games in terms of skill (Hakeem's footwork, Mike's range, Kobe's post play) even as their physical gifts decline and so are able to extend their effectiveness into their 30s


This.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

mid-late 20s is usually the rule... but with most sports it comes down to when did that player enter the league. I'd usually say a player should be entering his prime, considering the combination of factors that are experience and wear-and-tear... 5th or 6th year in the league a player should be entering or already in his prime as a player. As you move past 8 years in the league to 9 or 10 you start to see guys taper off, even younger ones in their late 20s, because the wear on the legs in basketball is just one of those things you can't easily avoid.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

I think there is an athletic prime and a career prime, two different things. Like it was mentioned before, some players know how to improve their game so that even if they lose a step in terms of athleticism, they can still elevate their game.


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## Cajon (Nov 1, 2012)

When experience, skills and athleticism meet. Mid to late 20s.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

so basically, players can be in their absolute prime despite not winning championships, mvp's, and even all-nba selections? it's understandable because not every player is necessarily a star-calibre player.


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## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

Mattsanity said:


> so basically, players can be in their absolute prime despite not winning championships, mvp's, and even all-nba selections? it's understandable because not every player is necessarily a star-calibre player.




:smart:even bitter fruit ripen.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Mattsanity said:


> so basically, players can be in their absolute prime despite not winning championships, mvp's, and even all-nba selections? it's understandable because not every player is necessarily a star-calibre player.


the trajectory of any player is limited by their cieling, not everyone gets to be Mike or Wilt (and titles are a team stat , you can be the best player in the league and not win titles because you simply dont have the right team around you)


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

alright I phrased that sentence wrong. I made it seem like every player in their prime must win a ring and other accolades. That's insulting to dedication and hard work. 

When it comes to players with successful teams, was Kobe passed his prime when he won back-to-back titles? He was already in his 30's by then.


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## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

Mattsanity said:


> alright I phrased that sentence wrong. I made it seem like every player in their prime must win a ring and other accolades. That's insulting to dedication and hard work.
> 
> When it comes to players with successful teams, was Kobe passed his prime when he won back-to-back titles? He was already in his 30's by then.


I think so, but barely and his prime was at 100 so while he was on his way down, he was still above 95% of the league.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

same with Mike on his second triple - evolving skills making up for decline in physical gifts - still the transcendant player in the game at the time but in the case of Mike 91-93 v Mike 96-98, the first one wins


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## arasu (Jan 18, 2013)

There are different aspects to a player's growth as a player. Most players lose speed and jumping ability throughout their careers, unless they lose weight or dramatically improve their conditioning. But they usually gain strength and coordination throughout their 20's, sometimes into their 30's. That plus improved skill can allow for a player to plateau at a consistently high level for years. 

A player that rely's primarily on speed like Allen Iverson, Tim Hardaway, and Isiah Thomas (Pistons) can peak very early, maybe early 20's. Wing players often will rely on speed, agility, and leaping ability at first, but as they lose speed they gain strength and coordination which they can use to maintain effectiveness. Once T-Mac gained some skill and just a little strength and coordination he put it together in his early 20's, but injuries robbed him of too much physically for him to maintain a high level of effectiveness. Jordan had a stat peak well before his championship years. As Jordan got older he improved his strength and coordination to the point he was basically just as good in 95-96 as he was in 91-92. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson both peaked stat-wise in their late 20's mostly as a result of improved skill and coordination. Both of those guys had already become slower and less athletic with strength not factoring in much. Big men however are known to peak late, late 20's early-mid 30's sometimes. Karl Malone got stronger in every year he played. By his final season he was built like a tank and only a freak injury could get in his way. Shaq peaked in strength and conditioning in his late 20's. Kareem pro-longed his prime by improving his conditioning over the course of 20 years. Hakeem improved his coordination, strength, and skill every year till his early 30's. Dennis Rodman didn't hit his stat peak till his 30's, at which point his conditioning was second to none. Not all bigs follow that blueprint though. The contrast between Amare Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler shows Amare's reliance on his quicks and hops early in his career gave him an early 20's peak, while Tyson's improved strength, skill, and coordination led to a late 20's peak.

The biggest factor for prime years for all players is injuries. Once an injury robs a player of an ability he relies on, it's all down hill after that. Players tend to put the most stress on their bodies when they reach their physical peak, which can lead to freak career threatening injuries. Once hit by such injuries a player's effectiveness can drop fast. Bird, T-Mac, Grant Hill, Brad Daugherty, Penny Hardaway, and Ming Yao all had quick drops from peak effectiveness to ineffectiveness.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

arasu said:


> There are different aspects to a player's growth as a player. Most players lose speed and jumping ability throughout their careers, unless they lose weight or dramatically improve their conditioning. But they usually gain strength and coordination throughout their 20's, sometimes into their 30's. That plus improved skill can allow for a player to plateau at a consistently high level for years.
> 
> A player that rely's primarily on speed like Allen Iverson, Tim Hardaway, and Isiah Thomas (Pistons) can peak very early, maybe early 20's. Wing players often will rely on speed, agility, and leaping ability at first, but as they lose speed they gain strength and coordination which they can use to maintain effectiveness. Once T-Mac gained some skill and just a little strength and coordination he put it together in his early 20's, but injuries robbed him of too much physically for him to maintain a high level of effectiveness. Jordan had a stat peak well before his championship years. As Jordan got older he improved his strength and coordination to the point he was basically just as good in 95-96 as he was in 91-92. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson both peaked stat-wise in their late 20's mostly as a result of improved skill and coordination. Both of those guys had already become slower and less athletic with strength not factoring in much. Big men however are known to peak late, late 20's early-mid 30's sometimes. Karl Malone got stronger in every year he played. By his final season he was built like a tank and only a freak injury could get in his way. Shaq peaked in strength and conditioning in his late 20's. Kareem pro-longed his prime by improving his conditioning over the course of 20 years. Hakeem improved his coordination, strength, and skill every year till his early 30's. Dennis Rodman didn't hit his stat peak till his 30's, at which point his conditioning was second to none. Not all bigs follow that blueprint though. The contrast between Amare Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler shows Amare's reliance on his quicks and hops early in his career gave him an early 20's peak, while Tyson's improved strength, skill, and coordination led to a late 20's peak.
> 
> The biggest factor for prime years for all players is injuries. Once an injury robs a player of an ability he relies on, it's all down hill after that. Players tend to put the most stress on their bodies when they reach their physical peak, which can lead to freak career threatening injuries. Once hit by such injuries a player's effectiveness can drop fast. Bird, T-Mac, Grant Hill, Brad Daugherty, Penny Hardaway, and Ming Yao all had quick drops from peak effectiveness to ineffectiveness.


Respect. I think that is a very good analysis.


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## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

arasu said:


> There are different aspects to a player's growth as a player. Most players lose speed and jumping ability throughout their careers, unless they lose weight or dramatically improve their conditioning. But they usually gain strength and coordination throughout their 20's, sometimes into their 30's. That plus improved skill can allow for a player to plateau at a consistently high level for years.
> 
> A player that rely's primarily on speed like Allen Iverson, Tim Hardaway, and Isiah Thomas (Pistons) can peak very early, maybe early 20's. Wing players often will rely on speed, agility, and leaping ability at first, but as they lose speed they gain strength and coordination which they can use to maintain effectiveness. Once T-Mac gained some skill and just a little strength and coordination he put it together in his early 20's, but injuries robbed him of too much physically for him to maintain a high level of effectiveness. Jordan had a stat peak well before his championship years. As Jordan got older he improved his strength and coordination to the point he was basically just as good in 95-96 as he was in 91-92. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson both peaked stat-wise in their late 20's mostly as a result of improved skill and coordination. Both of those guys had already become slower and less athletic with strength not factoring in much. Big men however are known to peak late, late 20's early-mid 30's sometimes. Karl Malone got stronger in every year he played. By his final season he was built like a tank and only a freak injury could get in his way. Shaq peaked in strength and conditioning in his late 20's. Kareem pro-longed his prime by improving his conditioning over the course of 20 years. Hakeem improved his coordination, strength, and skill every year till his early 30's. Dennis Rodman didn't hit his stat peak till his 30's, at which point his conditioning was second to none. Not all bigs follow that blueprint though. The contrast between Amare Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler shows Amare's reliance on his quicks and hops early in his career gave him an early 20's peak, while Tyson's improved strength, skill, and coordination led to a late 20's peak.
> 
> The biggest factor for prime years for all players is injuries. Once an injury robs a player of an ability he relies on, it's all down hill after that. Players tend to put the most stress on their bodies when they reach their physical peak, which can lead to freak career threatening injuries. Once hit by such injuries a player's effectiveness can drop fast. Bird, T-Mac, Grant Hill, Brad Daugherty, Penny Hardaway, and Ming Yao all had quick drops from peak effectiveness to ineffectiveness.





Dee-Zy said:


> Respect. I think that is a very good analysis.


Ditto


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

arasu said:


> There are different aspects to a player's growth as a player. Most players lose speed and jumping ability throughout their careers, unless they lose weight or dramatically improve their conditioning. But they usually gain strength and coordination throughout their 20's, sometimes into their 30's. That plus improved skill can allow for a player to plateau at a consistently high level for years.
> 
> A player that rely's primarily on speed like Allen Iverson, Tim Hardaway, and Isiah Thomas (Pistons) can peak very early, maybe early 20's. Wing players often will rely on speed, agility, and leaping ability at first, but as they lose speed they gain strength and coordination which they can use to maintain effectiveness. Once T-Mac gained some skill and just a little strength and coordination he put it together in his early 20's, but injuries robbed him of too much physically for him to maintain a high level of effectiveness. Jordan had a stat peak well before his championship years. As Jordan got older he improved his strength and coordination to the point he was basically just as good in 95-96 as he was in 91-92. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson both peaked stat-wise in their late 20's mostly as a result of improved skill and coordination. Both of those guys had already become slower and less athletic with strength not factoring in much. Big men however are known to peak late, late 20's early-mid 30's sometimes. Karl Malone got stronger in every year he played. By his final season he was built like a tank and only a freak injury could get in his way. Shaq peaked in strength and conditioning in his late 20's. Kareem pro-longed his prime by improving his conditioning over the course of 20 years. Hakeem improved his coordination, strength, and skill every year till his early 30's. Dennis Rodman didn't hit his stat peak till his 30's, at which point his conditioning was second to none. Not all bigs follow that blueprint though. The contrast between Amare Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler shows Amare's reliance on his quicks and hops early in his career gave him an early 20's peak, while Tyson's improved strength, skill, and coordination led to a late 20's peak.
> 
> The biggest factor for prime years for all players is injuries. Once an injury robs a player of an ability he relies on, it's all down hill after that. Players tend to put the most stress on their bodies when they reach their physical peak, which can lead to freak career threatening injuries. Once hit by such injuries a player's effectiveness can drop fast. Bird, T-Mac, Grant Hill, Brad Daugherty, Penny Hardaway, and Ming Yao all had quick drops from peak effectiveness to ineffectiveness.


nice. it's a fascinating evolution with certain players.


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