# Start Franchise With LeBron/Bosh or Wade/Howard?



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Which would you rather start a franchise with knowing what you know now about all four guys?


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Bump.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Not really close. Wade is close enough to Lebron as a wing to where Dwight Howard's defensive edge over Bosh makes it simple. Bosh isn't a franchise player, the other 3 are.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Lebron/Bosh.

I don't think Bron and Wade are close at all. You put any sort of star next to Lebron and they're the favorites to win given that the rest of the supporting cast is about equal.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

LeBron/Bosh for me too. Not even sure Wade/Howard could win a title together


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

LeBosh


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I think you guys are overrating Lebron's advantage over Wade and underrating Howard's defensive advantage over Bosh. And playing with Wade would get Dwight 23-4 a night.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

You're starting a franchise with these 2. They're not really going up against each other.

Lebron and Bosh - you contend right away with a solid roster. Wade and Howard - I think you'd have to have the right fit around them.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm not stating that as if they're going against each other, I'm stating the latter duo's advantages in the comparision.

With Lebron and Bosh first thing you have to do is find a Center who can defend. With Wade and Howard...all you need are shooters, one of which being a big man who can step out. They'd be much easier to create around.

It's really about Bosh and Howard here.


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## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

You can't go wrong with either duo but I'd go with Bosh/Lebron if I had to choose.


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

As much as I love LeBron I think here it's Wade with Howard. If LeBron played Power Forward he would be better at it than Bosh.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Lebron/Bosh. Lebron is the best player in the game today and Bosh has been great as well. This combo is nowhere near as limited as Wade/Howard; they're limited because Howard gets into foul trouble often (2nd in the league for technicals, 2nd in the league in fouls per game) and he's pretty lacking offensively when it comes to franchise talent. Wade also has a history of injuries including this season unfortunately. 

So that means a Wade/Howard combo could potentially be a lot less bang for your buck since Wade is relatively more injury prone and Howard has games where he fouls himself away from making a superstar impact.

They're both bad *** combinations though. However I think Wade has a better chance of teaming up with Amar'e, Bosh, or Boozer than Howard in the near future


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Wade/Howard. It's easier to build around this lineup, and I think a team based around Wade/Howard would beat the team built around Bron/Bosh. It's jmo obviously, but like someone pointed out, the interior defense would be set on the Howard team(which is key in stopping Bron) and it would be tougher for the other team to find a center and frontcourt(depth) that could contain Dwight imo. Dwight would physically dominate Bosh... The one guy I would love love love to see, who I think would really compliment Dwight better than anybody is Carmelo. Dwight/Melo would be a beautiful inside/out duo imo, with Melo's off versatility and Dwight's power game and D. Teams wouldn't have a chance..


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Lebron/Bosh. I'm surprised its only been brought up once so far, but why is everyone acting like Wade isn't injury prone?


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

I like Wade and Bosh but honestly Lebron/Howard is just too crazy


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

fjkdsi said:


> I like Wade and Bosh but honestly Lebron/Howard is just too crazy


I'd go for LeBron and Howard too, but that isn't even an option...


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

R-Star said:


> Lebron/Bosh. I'm surprised its only been brought up once so far, but why is everyone acting like Wade isn't injury prone?


Exactly, and listen I love Dwight but an offensive juggernaut he is not. I think you the Wade/Dwight team would still need another first tier and second tier scorer to win a ring


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

No, Dwight would be a fine offensive option. All he does is outsize most defenders, but then again how many good feeds has he ever really received? He's never played with a playmaker like Wade. 24 points out of the post is gold.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Lebron.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Honestly I don't see the huge difference between Bosh and Howard. It seems to me that one is being overrated and the other is being underrated. The difference between Bosh and Howard on the offensive end is enormous. As a rebounder Bosh is pretty close. Howard is a lot better defensively, but he also spends a lot of time sitting on the bench because he fouls a lot. In fact he fouls a lot more than he's called for. Now Lebron is a lot better than Wade and he's been working on his weaknesses to such an extent that you have to believe he's going to remain a great player for a very long time. Wade is still the same guy and it looks like he's got a couple more high level years and then he's going to become ordinary. I'd go with Lebron easy.


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## YoYoYoWasup (Nov 14, 2004)

Diable said:


> Honestly I don't see the huge difference between Bosh and Howard. It seems to me that one is being overrated and the other is being underrated. The difference between Bosh and Howard on the offensive end is enormous. As a rebounder Bosh is pretty close. Howard is a lot better defensively, but he also spends a lot of time sitting on the bench because he fouls a lot. In fact he fouls a lot more than he's called for. Now Lebron is a lot better than Wade and he's been working on his weaknesses to such an extent that you have to believe he's going to remain a great player for a very long time. Wade is still the same guy and it looks like he's got a couple more high level years and then he's going to become ordinary. I'd go with Lebron easy.


Howard is better than Bosh because the way he plays basketball is a lot more suited for playoff basketball than Bosh. Not to mention, he's the best defensive player in the league, covers EVERY other players defensive shortcomings, and is still a very capable offensive player. Howard led his team to the Finals last year- where has Bosh ever led Toronto?

I'd still take LeBron/Bosh just because it's LeBron, but Howard's impact on the game is a lot bigger than Bosh's.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Bosh and Howard are the same level player. Bosh is clearly a far more productive player and frankly I just don't buy the pablum about Howard's defense. He blocks shots...And ?


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## YoYoYoWasup (Nov 14, 2004)

Diable said:


> Bosh and Howard are the same level player. Bosh is clearly a far more productive player and frankly I just don't buy the pablum about Howard's defense. He blocks shots...And ?


He has a ton of crappy defensive players on his team and has led them to the #4 defensive rating this season and the #1 defensive rating last season. He's the best defensive player in the league and it's not even close.

Bosh has Howard beat on points, and that's about it. He's not more productive rebounding the ball, blocking shots, stealing the ball, getting to the FT line, nor is he anywhere near as efficient.

Bosh is the better offensive player, but in the playoffs, I'd rather have Dwight Howard's offense than Bosh's. Pure low post centers who take high percentage shots go further and perform better than face up oriented bigs who take lower percentage shots.

Put Dwight on Toronto, where he'd be a perfect fit next to Bargnani, and they'd be substantially better than they are. Likewise, put Bosh on the Magic and they get worse.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

I like Wade/Dwight because of the advantage Dwight has over Bosh. Yes, Lebron is better then Wade (not as much as you people seem to think), but with Dwight having Wade on the roster, he will barely have to score, all he has to do is catch alley-oops from Wade, and defend the interior. Wade would make Dwight look much better then he already is.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

If Dwight had a superstar wing I dont see how you could not take that package. LeBron is nice, but Wade/Melo/KD can all bring things similar to him even if it's not as great as LBJ on the whole... Dwight though, it's hard to find a guy that could counter him like the other wings could counter Bron... I mean, after Shaq and Yao(and maybe Bynum or maybe Oden or Perkins on certain nights), the selection is pretty bare... 

Guys like Bosh, Amare, & Pau are all great players and more refined players than Dwight offensively but they couldn't do **** to stop Dwight if they were matched up for a game, w/o constant doubling... Dwight would dominate any of those guys 1-on-1, so you're opinion of his offense is moot. Not to mention, Dwight anchors a defense better than any of those guys and could guard any of those guys one-on-one... It's the matchup problems created by Dwight along with elite level D that make him the most valuable big man in the league... If you're just looking @ offense, you're missing the boat. Dwight isn't even an inept or incapable scorer. He's pretty solid and capable, just not elite.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Dwight doesn't get doubled consistently by anyone and he never really dominates anyone. So that line of argument is simply bogus. Howard is double teamed about half the time in any given game and not at all in others depending on match ups.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Diable said:


> *Dwight doesn't get doubled consistently by anyone and he never really dominates anyone.* So that line of argument is simply bogus. Howard is double teamed about half the time in any given game and not at all in others depending on match ups.


Are you kidding? :laugh:


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## YoYoYoWasup (Nov 14, 2004)

Diable said:


> Dwight doesn't get doubled consistently by anyone and he never really dominates anyone. So that line of argument is simply bogus. Howard is double teamed about half the time in any given game and not at all in others depending on match ups.


Howard is one of the most doubled players in the league, which is why his turnovers are always high because he struggles passing out of them at times.

If you really want to settle who is a better player between Bosh and Howard, look at their lone playoff series against one another. Toronto was the popular choice to upset Orlando and had dominated Orlando in recent years in the regular season, yet Howard put the Magic on his shoulders and completely outplayed Bosh in every facet of the game.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

It's Dwight Howard and Dwyane Wade. 

NO argument even needs to me made why, until someone comes up with anything worth refuting why LBJ and Bosh should be the pick. And the usual LeBron is the best doesn't really mean much. How many championships has LBJ won being the best player in the league ? I'll tell you, zilch. It's a team game, and a team with D Wade, and Dwight Howard is better than a team with LeBron and Bosh.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

This is a really good choice, I dont think either is clearly better than the other, it all depends on the situation, what player you put around them, and who is shooting better and has fresh legs that night


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Wade's injury prone, Howard's foul prone and is a liability on offense. Easy decision, not to mention James is easily the best player in basketball today and sitting in that tier alone. 

As for the franchise's longtime future: Bosh's game will likely age better than Howard's and Wade's injuries will probably make him seem older than he is compared to James.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Dwight is a liability on offense? Gtfo


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## carlos710 (Jun 13, 2002)

Lebron/Bosh


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> Dwight is a liability on offense? Gtfo


Compared to Bosh, yup. Howard's defense is better than his but Bosh is nowhere as bad on defense as Howard is offensively. Howard's game likely won't age well either. He has been making minor improvements but good defensive teams will be able to deny/steal the ball or make him earn it at the line (and with a 60%FT its in the opposing team's favor to do so).

If you're not a homer you'd pick Lebron/Bosh. Don't see much argument for passing up the best player and one of the better PFs in the game for a superstar combo consisting of someone thats injury- prone and foul-prone.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Wade/Howard.
Superstar wing player with the best defender in the league who also happens to (i) play center and (ii) be a solid offensive weapon.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Not to mention that Wade is already 28. With the way that he plays I would be surprised if he can maintain his play at an elite level past 30. We talk about lack of development on Howard but Wade is pretty much the same player that he was few years ago.

Call me biased but if you were to look at Wade's career from this year forward and compare it to Kobe's career starting from this year until they both retire I would say that Kobe would put up better numbers despite giving away 3 years. Wade will eventually have to rely on his jumper instead of his athleticism and when that day comes he will be quite average imo.


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## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

Wade is already relying too much on his jumper and is still averaging 26ppg or so. He's not rookie year D-Wade anymore.


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

ATLien said:


> LeBron/Bosh for me too. *Not even sure Wade/Howard could win a title together*


 i'm pretty sure both combos could win a title together. 

i'd go with wade/howard because howard's strengths compliment wade's better. you basically would have a superstar anchor on each end of the floor.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> Not to mention that Wade is already 28. With the way that he plays I would be surprised if he can maintain his play at an elite level past 30. We talk about lack of development on Howard but Wade is pretty much the same player that he was few years ago.
> 
> Call me biased but if you were to look at Wade's career from this year forward and compare it to Kobe's career starting from this year until they both retire I would say that Kobe would put up better numbers despite giving away 3 years. Wade will eventually have to rely on his jumper instead of his athleticism and when that day comes he will be quite average imo.


You realize Wade is one of the better mid-range shooters in the game, right?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Wheres Wade again right now? Injured isn't he?

Strange. That never happens.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

I look at this quite differently from everyone else. Bosh doesn't belong in the conversation with the other 3 players so the question might as well be James/Taj Gibson vs Wade/Howard. Plus there is no way in hell I want Bosh on my franchise.

On the other hand, even though I'm a fan of Wade, I wouldn't offer him a max contract for my team because I'm afraid of him breaking down. So for this season and maybe the next one, I'd take Wade/Howard over James/insert PF here. 

Since the question is about starting a franchise, it comes down to James versus Howard and I'm taking James.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Are you saying Chris Bosh = Taj Gibson...


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

briaN37 said:


> Are you saying Chris Bosh = Taj Gibson...


No, I would never insult Taj Gibson like that.

I'm saying for purposes of this discussion, Bosh has no impact on the outcome.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

cpawfan said:


> No, I would never insult Taj Gibson like that.
> 
> I'm saying for purposes of this discussion, Bosh has no impact on the outcome.


You're entitled to your own opinion. No matter how stupid it is.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

R-Star said:


> Wheres Wade again right now? Injured isn't he?
> 
> Strange. That never happens.


Listed as day-to-day and has missed 2 games so far. It's not as if he's missed 40 games this year.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

GregOden said:


> You realize Wade is one of the better mid-range shooters in the game, right?


No he's not.

I'm not saying Wade is a bad shooter, but he is at best an average shooter for a guard.

I'm not saying that he hasn't improved since his rookie season either when I said the last few years. He has certainly topped out as a player and I don't expect him to improve.



cpawfan said:


> I look at this quite differently from everyone else.


Thank god. Or else this board would be the laughingstock of the NBA fan community.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

R-Star said:


> Wheres Wade again right now? Injured isn't he?
> 
> Strange. That never happens.


um Bosh is injured too, sir.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> um Bosh is injured too, sir.


I think he was trying to say that Wade is injury prone. Even if you chop both of Bosh's legs off it still has nothing to do with Wade being injury prone.

Bosh always get some minor injuries and end up missing about 5-10 games a year. His latest one happened in that Memphis game where he landed on somebody and sprained his ankle. He should be back on Wednesday.

Overall Bosh has been quite durable and doesn't have any lingering injuries. Part of it has to do with him being more of a finesse guy than someone that relies heavily on his athleticism and size.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

R-Star said:


> You're entitled to your own opinion. No matter how stupid it is.


You would be the authority on that.

I keep forgetting that every time I spread the truth about Bosh I have to deal with America's hair piece.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> Thank god. Or else this board would be the laughingstock of the NBA fan community.



Only in Canada. I spent years telling the truth about Vince so I'm use to dealing with those that have unrealistic beliefs in a player.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> Only in Canada. I spent years telling the truth about Vince so I'm use to dealing with those that have unrealistic beliefs in a player.


I wasn't aware the majority of the posters on this board are from Canada.

Good luck convincing people that Bosh is in any shape or form similar to Taj Gibson. Funny how all the teams clearing cap space now are targeting Bosh this off season giving him as much money as possible, luring him *away* from Canada, a place that according to you vastly overrates the guy.

Personally I don't have a problem with people stating their beliefs. It is the half-*** attempts at reasoning afterwards that really bugs me.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> I wasn't aware the majority of the posters on this board are from Canada.
> 
> Good luck convincing people that Bosh is in any shape or form similar to Taj Gibson. Funny how all the teams clearing cap space now are targeting Bosh this off season giving him as much money as possible, luring him *away* from Canada, a place that according to you vastly overrates the guy.
> 
> Personally I don't have a problem with people stating their beliefs. It is the half-*** attempts at reasoning afterwards that really bugs me.


I'm so happy you failed to understand what I was saying. I'm not comparing Bosh to Gibson at all. I said for the purposes of this discussion you could replace Bosh with Gibson and not have it change the outcome. It is about the magnitude of Bosh's impact when discussing the other 3 players. I'd say the same thing if the question was James/Gasol.

As far as teams clearing cap space for Bosh, there are a lot of really dumb GM's. Personally I hope the Bosh goes to the Knicks so that they remain mired in mediocrity.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> I'm so happy you failed to understand what I was saying. I'm not comparing Bosh to Gibson at all. I said for the purposes of this discussion you could replace Bosh with Gibson and not have it change the outcome. It is about the magnitude of Bosh's impact when discussing the other 3 players. I'd say the same thing if the question was James/Gasol.


Does this make it any less ridiculous of a claim? I understood perfectly what you meant. But let's say I didn't, saying replacing Bosh with Gibson wouldn't change the outcome of the success of the team is still something that's far away from the opinion of the majority.



> As far as teams clearing cap space for Bosh, there are a lot of really dumb GM's. Personally I hope the Bosh goes to the Knicks so that they remain mired in mediocrity.


Yeah, Pat Riley certainly doesn't know what he is doing. A lot of really dumb GM's? I just love people that make this kind of claims when in fact no team of any level would ever contact you to run their team for them. It's not like there are only a couple of teams that targets Bosh. Every team that's clearing cap space for 2010 will at least attempt to get Bosh for the max contract. 

Can you imagine if everyone or even half of the people on this board agrees with you? You're sounding like Ballscientist but without the humor.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> Does this make it any less ridiculous of a claim? I understood perfectly what you meant. But let's say I didn't, saying replacing Bosh with Gibson wouldn't change the outcome of the success of the team is still something that's far away from the opinion of the majority.
> 
> Yeah, Pat Riley certainly doesn't know what he is doing. A lot of really dumb GM's? I just love people that make this kind of claims when in fact no team of any level would ever contact you to run their team for them. It's not like there are only a couple of teams that targets Bosh. Every team that's clearing cap space for 2010 will at least attempt to get Bosh for the max contract.
> 
> Can you imagine if everyone or even half of the people on this board agrees with you? You're sounding like Ballscientist but without the humor.


I'm quite happy the majority don't agree with me as the majority are really ****ing stupid. Hiding behind well this is what the majority believes is moronic. At one time the majority of the populace believed the earth was flat. The majority thought the Nuggets would suffer by dumping Camby to the Clippers, they were wrong and I was correct. So many damn examples where utilizing group think as a standard is absolutely ridiculous. 

On a team with LeBron James, Bosh will have no more of an impact on winning games than Gibson. 

And yes Pat Riley doesn't know what he is doing. Check out his draft record recently.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

So you would take LeBron/Gibson over Wade/Bosh?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> I'm quite happy the majority don't agree with me as the majority are really ****ing stupid. Hiding behind well this is what the majority believes is moronic. At one time the majority of the populace believed the earth was flat. The majority thought the Nuggets would suffer by dumping Camby to the Clippers, they were wrong and I was correct. So many damn examples where utilizing group think as a standard is absolutely ridiculous.


Didn't you just make the claim that only people in Canada doesn't share your views? So what exactly is it?

As I said already, you are entitled to your opinion. The fact is the majority of the people would look at you as being ridiculous. If you don't see yourself as ridiculous that is well and fine with the rest of us.

People didn't prove that the Earth was round by making claims about it. Go ahead and at least put out some effort to prove that Bosh affects the game similar to Taj Gibson. I'd make fun of you more but I'm really looking forward to what you're going say.



> And yes Pat Riley doesn't know what he is doing. Check out his draft record recently.


Yeah......ok


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

fjkdsi said:


> So you would take LeBron/Gibson over Wade/Bosh?


To start a franchise, yes. I also wouldn't select Timmy or KG to start a franchise.

If I'm only concerned about next season, I'd take Wade and Bosh.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> Didn't you just make the claim that only people in Canada doesn't share your views? So what exactly is it?


Nope, that isn't what I claimed at all. The point is that Raptors fans overrate Bosh the same way they overrated Vince. 



> People didn't prove that the Earth was round by making claims about it. Go ahead and at least put out some effort to prove that Bosh affects the game similar to Taj Gibson.


Go ahead and comprehend what I'm saying first. You keep trying to compare Bosh and Gibson directly which is not what I'm doing. Gibson can't be a number 1 scoring option for a mediocre team like Bosh can, but this discussion is about playing with LeBron James for a number of seasons. Bosh isn't an impact player on defense nor a guy that does the little things. Bosh's rebounding is much better this season, but he isn't an elite rebounder. Gibson is a better offensive rebounder and shot blocker.

As far as Bosh's offense, he gets a significant amount of his points from the FT line. Playing with James will reduce his number of touches and change his opportunities for getting to the line. So how does Bosh make a big impact playing with James, especially in the playoffs? Is it Bosh being the primary scoring option for the 9 minutes James is on the bench? You can say that Bosh will be somebody that other teams will have to double opening up more room for James. However, Bosh still doesn't deal well when defended physically and there is a lot more physical contact allowed in the playoffs.

That leaves us with the theory that the James - Bosh pick and roll would be too difficult to defend. However, any player that can set a good screen will be open on the roll with James handling the ball. So that puts us to pick and pop and do you really want to pay Bosh max money to be a jumper shooter?

Now compare the total impact of both players paired with James. Bosh will have a max contract limiting what else a team could add to the roster. Gibson, even if you take him from his cheap rookie contract and project him to his next contract, still won't be very expensive allowing a lot more financial flexibility to add more quality players to the roster.



> I'd make fun of you more but I'm really looking forward to what you're going say.


It is hilarious you think you are making fun of me considering that you have failed to understand.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> Compared to Bosh, yup.


Actually, nope. I've never seen a liability that demands a double team from every team in the league. Usually the liabilities are left unguarded.



> Howard's defense is better than his but Bosh is nowhere as bad on defense as Howard is offensively. Howard's game likely won't age well either. He has been making minor improvements but good defensive teams will be able to deny/steal the ball or make him earn it at the line (and with a 60%FT its in the opposing team's favor to do so).


Yet Howard anchors a top 5 defensive team and Bosh anchors the worst defensive team in the league(http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats?sort=defensiveEff&order=false)? Nothing you're saying makes much sense. Bosh is more refined offensively, sure, but Dwight is not the bum you seem to think he is. Put Dwight in Toronto and more than likely they're a top 10 defensive team... Offensively, he's efficient enough to be 20ppg guy right now.



> If you're not a homer you'd pick Lebron/Bosh. Don't see much argument for passing up the best player and one of the better PFs in the game for a superstar combo consisting of someone thats injury- prone and foul-prone.


Honestly, I really dont relate to any of the arguments you've made either. To claim that only a homer would pick Howard/Wade is a joke. Even Phil Jackson said if he could take one guy in the league to start a franchise, it would be Dwight. Perhaps the GOAT coach _must_ not understand much about what it takes to win... Either that, or you're just ignorant to what Dwight brings to the table.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> Nope, that isn't what I claimed at all. The point is that Raptors fans overrate Bosh the same way they overrated Vince.


Go back and read what you wrote.

You claim that Canadian fans look at Bosh differently yet you also claim that you look at Bosh different from everyone else. I guess you're saying that both fans in the US and Canada look at Bosh a certain way that is different from your view.

It makes absolutely no sense, go back and see how ridiculous it is.



> Go ahead and comprehend what I'm saying first. You keep trying to compare Bosh and Gibson directly which is not what I'm doing. Gibson can't be a number 1 scoring option for a mediocre team like Bosh can, but this discussion is about playing with LeBron James for a number of seasons. Bosh isn't an impact player on defense nor a guy that does the little things. Bosh's rebounding is much better this season, but he isn't an elite rebounder. Gibson is a better offensive rebounder and shot blocker.


I've already said that in my last response that it doesn't make it seem any less ridiculous no matter how you cut it. The fact that you believe that switching Bosh with Gibson to pair up with James will not affect the outcome of a basketball game is ridiculous. There is no need for you to further explain yourself when your central idea stays the same. You are entitled to your opinion. I think it is ridiculous as well as the majority of the people here. I'm simply stating the fact.

Perhaps you are the one who is pointing out that the Earth is round while everyone else feels that the Earth is flat. But I would like you to remember that while some people were genius making those claims, there were also people who thought burning a witch would cure diseases and that there are rabbits living on the Moon. Don't joy yourself in feeling different.



> As far as Bosh's offense, he gets a significant amount of his points from the FT line. Playing with James will reduce his number of touches and change his opportunities for getting to the line. So how does Bosh make a big impact playing with James, especially in the playoffs? Is it Bosh being the primary scoring option for the 9 minutes James is on the bench? You can say that Bosh will be somebody that other teams will have to double opening up more room for James. However, Bosh still doesn't deal well when defended physically and there is a lot more physical contact allowed in the playoffs.
> 
> That leaves us with the theory that the James - Bosh pick and roll would be too difficult to defend. However, any player that can set a good screen will be open on the roll with James handling the ball. So that puts us to pick and pop and do you really want to pay Bosh max money to be a jumper shooter?
> 
> Now compare the total impact of both players paired with James. Bosh will have a max contract limiting what else a team could add to the roster. Gibson, even if you take him from his cheap rookie contract and project him to his next contract, still won't be very expensive allowing a lot more financial flexibility to add more quality players to the roster.


Hey, at least you're trying. I'm not even going to try to argue about how off the mark you are regarding the combination of Bosh and Lebron simply because there are just too much that could be said. All I can say is if you poll every GM out there and ask them whether they would rather have Lebron + Bosh with both making max contracts or Lebron + Gibson with Gibson making the MLE, majority of the GMs would go with Lebron and Bosh. That alone should tell you how accurate you are in terms of forecasting the future of this duo.

Oh wait, I forgot, most of the GMs in the league don't know what they're doing. They need you to be their Columbus in order to see that the Earth isn't flat. Give me a break.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> Go back and read what you wrote.
> 
> You claim that Canadian fans look at Bosh differently yet you also claim that you look at Bosh different from everyone else. I guess you're saying that both fans in the US and Canada look at Bosh a certain way that is different from your view.
> 
> It makes absolutely no sense, go back and see how ridiculous it is.


I know what I wrote. You missed the sarcasm and the reason I included Vince in my response. 

Let me make it simple for you. The majority of Raptors fans vastly overrate Bosh like they did Vince. The majority of the rest of the NBA fans overrate Bosh because he puts up pretty stat lines.



> Oh wait, I forgot, most of the GMs in the league don't know what they're doing.


Most NBA GM's aren't good at their job which is to build a successful team based upon certain budget constraints. Dumars, who use to be thought of as a top flight GM wasted cap space this past summer. Several teams have cleared out cap space for this summer and lets revisit in a year how many of them have significantly improved. The league is filled with bad contracts from poor management during free agency. Several teams have wasted lottery picks on their roster. Lopsided, non-cap clearing trades continue to be made.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> I know what I wrote. You missed the sarcasm and the reason I included Vince in my response.
> 
> Let me make it simple for you. The majority of Raptors fans vastly overrate Bosh like they did Vince. The majority of the rest of the NBA fans overrate Bosh because he puts up pretty stat lines.


I still don't see the sarcasm. Can someone other than cpawfan tell me where he was being sarcastic?

When I pointed out that most people rates Bosh highly you responded by saying that's a view shared only by Canadians. Was that suppose to be sarcastic?

Oh I get it, you must have a very different definition of what sarcasm is. I guess when you're special you're special.



> Most NBA GM's aren't good at their job which is to build a successful team based upon certain budget constraints. Dumars, who use to be thought of as a top flight GM wasted cap space this past summer. Several teams have cleared out cap space for this summer and lets revisit in a year how many of them have significantly improved. The league is filled with bad contracts from poor management during free agency. Several teams have wasted lottery picks on their roster. Lopsided, non-cap clearing trades continue to be made.


Nobody is saying that GMs don't make mistakes. However to say that a lot of them don't know what they are doing is just being ignorant imo. The fact is that with the exception of a few GMs in the past, the majority of GMs are much more qualified to make accurate basketball-related decisions than any of us on these boards. To ignore the accuracy of their opinion simply because some of them have made mistakes in the past shows your lack of understanding of how to build a winning team. I'm only saying that I feel that their views are more accurate than your views, and your views happen to be that Bosh and Gibson are similar in terms of affecting the outcome of the game when paired with Lebron.

I agree with R-star on this. You are entitled to your opinion no matter how moronic it may be. I'm simply pointing out that your view is different from the majority, which just happens to include GMs and other basketball professionals.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> Nobody is saying that GMs don't make mistakes. However to say that a lot of them don't know what they are doing is just being ignorant imo.


We are never going to be able to have a decent discussion if you continue to make such glaring errors in representing what I am saying. This is now 2 consecutive posts from you were you have done this on this particular subject. I corrected you and you still went back to it.

There is a world of difference between saying that someone isn't good at their job and saying they don't know what they are doing. As an example, I can point out a lot of college players that know what they are doing, but that are simply not good enough to be NBA players. No amount of knowledge of an NBA playbook and coaching about what to do in certain circumstances is going to make them good.



> The fact is that with the exception of a few GMs in the past, the majority of GMs are much more qualified to make accurate basketball-related decisions than any of us on these boards.


Certainly they are more qualified than teenagers and 20 somethings. However, there are many of us that are successful professionals in our field that have skills that could be easily transfered to running an NBA team. GM's have staffs of people that prepare information (scouting reports, salary cap information, medical reports etc) and their job is to evaluate the risks of each situation and make decisions. Just like any career, one has to work their way up. In the case of sports teams there are very limited opportunities which generally require knowing someone that will offer you a very poorly paid position in which you can begin to learn and prove yourself. It generally takes years for a person that attempts to pursue that career path to make as much as an engineering major or MBA grad does on their first job.




> To ignore the accuracy of their opinion simply because some of them have made mistakes in the past shows your lack of understanding of how to build a winning team.


The accuracy of their opinion? How are their opinions so accurate? Count the number of bad contracts in the NBA. Count the number of failed lottery picks.

There is no accuracy to ignore. Every GM gets some things right and some things wrong. By and large, for 15 roster spots, most teams are not accurate and seek to improve several of their roster spots each offseason. The nice thing about sports is that we can look at what worked and what didn't each season. We can go back and examine how effective the decision making of GM's was. Now we rarely know about the trades they turned down, but we can look at all of the transactions each season.

When I say that most GM's aren't good at their jobs it is because I have looked closely at what teams do from one season to the next. We can have another thread that goes through the history of each GM and how good they are at drafting, player acquisition, asset management, roster management and risk management. 

None of that relates to my understanding of how to build a winning team.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

cpawfan said:


> I'm quite happy the majority don't agree with me as the majority are really ****ing stupid. Hiding behind well this is what the majority believes is moronic. At one time the majority of the populace believed the earth was flat. The majority thought the Nuggets would suffer by dumping Camby to the Clippers, they were wrong and I was correct. So many damn examples where utilizing group think as a standard is absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> On a team with LeBron James, Bosh will have no more of an impact on winning games than Gibson.
> 
> And yes Pat Riley doesn't know what he is doing. Check out his draft record recently.


Hey..... admin. Better think twice before you call me or any other poster "really ****ing stupid" again. 

Bottom line is you're the one with the ****ing moronic opinion.

Again, nice work admin. Insult the posters of the board. Bang up job you're doing *******.

I just ****ing love dick heads who sit behind their computer and think they're smarter than the rest of the board. But I guess you proved it with "people used to believe the earth was flat."

What a ****ing idiot.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

R-Star said:


> Hey..... admin. Better think twice before you call me or any other poster "really ****ing stupid" again.
> 
> Bottom line is you're the one with the ****ing moronic opinion.
> 
> ...


I wasn't talking about the majority of the posters on this board, I was talking about the majority of NBA fans.

The comment I replied to was "Can you imagine if everyone or even half of the people on this board agrees with you?" Now you are choosing to believe that I was responding to "even half of the people on this board" when I was talking about everyone. Not the limited case of everyone on this board, but everyone.

I'm precise enough in my writing that I would have indicated if I was talking about the majority of the posters on this board. You are the one that decided to put a modifier on my statement that didn't belong and fly off the handle. 

If the majority of NBA fans disagree with me, I feel pretty confident that my opinion is correct. Some people believe in the wisdom of crowds, I am not one of them.

This is a message board and it exists to have discussion about topics and for people to disagree with one another.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

cpawfan said:


> I wasn't talking about the majority of the posters on this board, I was talking about the majority of NBA fans.
> 
> The comment I replied to was "Can you imagine if everyone or even half of the people on this board agrees with you?" Now you are choosing to believe that I was responding to "even half of the people on this board" when I was talking about everyone. Not the limited case of everyone on this board, but everyone.
> 
> ...


So you decided to respond to only half of the sentance you quoted? Thats awesome. I can't see why anyone would be confused by that. You do understand that in fact it would be you putting a modifier in correct? Common knowledge suggest that if you quote a whole sentance, with the posters on this board and their intelligence being the subject, most would assume you're answer is in relation to the whole sentance. Not a pick and choose response.

Weak attempt at backing yourself away from your feable insult.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> There is a world of difference between saying that someone isn't good at their job and saying they don't know what they are doing.





cpawfan said:


> And yes Pat Riley doesn't know what he is doing. Check out his draft record recently.


So I guess saying that Pat Riley doesn't know what he is doing means he knows what he is doing?

I guess by saying Bosh and Gibson makes similar impact to the game you actually mean that they actually make different impact to the game? Can I get any more contradicting statements out of you? Are you done?

If it's getting difficult to follow the discussion, I'll just break it down for you so it's less confusing.

What I am basically saying is that the majority of the GMs wish that they have Bosh on their team. The ones that are in position to clear cap space are clearing cap space for him and the ones that don't have cap space tried to get him via trades (hence the numerous trade rumors and multiple news of rejection from Colangelo). It just so happens that none of those GMs share your view on him and certainly wouldn't compare Taj Gibson with Chris Bosh. And yes, I know you didn't mean to compare them directly. Whatever context you want to put the comparison in, it is still far from the views of the basketball community.



> Certainly they are more qualified than teenagers and 20 somethings. However, there are many of us that are successful professionals in our field that have skills that could be easily transfered to running an NBA team.


I have yet to see a GM from MLB or NFL either transfer to NBA or any other professional sport. It's hard to imagine someone with no professional basketball background to "know what they're doing". But then again, I'm not saying that it's impossible for that to happen. However until that happens, isn't it logical to at least value the opinions of those professionals over the non-professionals?



> When I say that most GM's aren't good at their jobs it is because I have looked closely at what teams do from one season to the next. We can have another thread that goes through the history of each GM and how good they are at drafting, player acquisition, asset management, roster management and risk management.


And therefore your view on Bosh should be more accurate than their view?

Again, there is no right or wrong here because obviously nobody can prove any of this. But it just amazes me the arrogance that you have when it comes to basketball knowledge. That is going to be quite a huge feather in your hat when you prove everybody wrong isn't it?


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

R-Star said:


> So you decided to respond to only half of the sentance you quoted? Thats awesome. I can't see why anyone would be confused by that. You do understand that in fact it would be you putting a modifier in correct? Common knowledge suggest that if you quote a whole sentance, with the posters on this board and their intelligence being the subject, most would assume you're answer is in relation to the whole sentance. Not a pick and choose response.
> 
> Weak attempt at backing yourself away from your feable insult.


I quoted the entire post and didn't respond to every word in it. Should I have eliminated all of the ones I didn't respond to? Your point would have more merit if I had just quoted that sentence. I pulled out the quote to respond to your offbase rant. 

If I was going to insult you, it wouldn't be feeble nor would I back away from it.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

cpawfan said:


> I quoted the entire post and didn't respond to every word in it. Should I have eliminated all of the ones I didn't respond to? Your point would have more merit if I had just quoted that sentence. I pulled out the quote to respond to your offbase rant.
> 
> *If I was going to insult you, it wouldn't be feeble nor would I back away from it.*


No. I'm quite sure it would be just that. 

But by all means, continue to lose your pathetic argument and contradict yourself. 

I'm quite enjoying your attempt at sidestepping.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> So I guess saying that Pat Riley doesn't know what he is doing means he knows what he is doing?


Specific vs general.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> Specific vs general.


lol.....

I got it. What you are saying is,

"There are a lot of dumb GMs that aren't good at their jobs *but* knows what they're doing.(Except Pat Riley, he doesn't know what he's doing)"

If Regis was here he would ask you if this is your final answer.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> I have yet to see a GM from MLB or NFL either transfer to NBA or any other professional sport. It's hard to imagine someone with no professional basketball background to "know what they're doing". But then again, I'm not saying that it's impossible for that to happen. However until that happens, isn't it logical to at least value the opinions of those professionals over the non-professionals?


Jerry Colangelo hired a GM of the Diamondbacks, but he was involved in running the team as managing partner and hired Showalter as the manager.

Jerry Krause worked as both a basketball and baseball scout before becoming the GM of the Bulls.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> Jerry Colangelo hired a GM of the Diamondbacks, but he was involved in running the team as managing partner and hired Showalter as the manager.
> 
> Jerry Krause worked as both a basketball and baseball scout before becoming the GM of the Bulls.


If you really want to be specific, I believe I said general managers switching sports becoming GMs of another sport. It hasn't happened yet as far as I know. I don't doubt that people have tried to work at certain levels of another sport on their way up, but to be the GM is a lot different than being a scout. Again we're really splitting hairs here. My entire point is that it makes sense to view the opinions of those that are already working as NBA GMs to those that have jobs that are non basketball related.

But I guess at this point it is logical to ask about your profession and how the profession somehow gives you such arrogance when it comes to basketball opinion.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> lol.....
> 
> I got it. What you are saying is,
> 
> ...


No, Riley isn't the only one that doesn't know what he is doing.

Riley thinks like a coach not like a team executive. If it wasn't for Bill Duffy forgetting to turn in the paperwork for Anthony Carter's 4 million dollar option, Riley most likely wouldn't be thought of as highly as a GM/President as that set in motion the sequence of events that landed Shaq in Miami and got him a ring as a Team President.

Because of his ability as a coach, he was able to deal with the constant roster changes he forced on himself and build winning records. He didn't look much past how to win the season he was in. He has been active and entertaining for NBA fans as he had made lots of transactions season after season and I give him credit for always being willing to say, well this isn't working, let's try something else.

The Marion for JON trade is one of his few strategic decisions where he looked past one season to a future free agency period. 

Riley does it his way and has the gravitas to pull it off year after year. However, in my opinion formed from observation of his decade and half running the Heat, he doesn't do what most owners would list as the job description for the GM role.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

"I heard what Chris Bosh said, and that's strong words coming from the RuPaul of big men," O'Neal said.

Until Bosh takes off the skirt and actually plays defense and stops guys, and makes his team a dynamic force. He is no where near the level of James, Wade, and Howard. 

Howard dwarfs Chris Bosh by a significant amount.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> If you really want to be specific, I believe I said general managers switching sports becoming GMs of another sport. It hasn't happened yet as far as I know. I don't doubt that people have tried to work at certain levels of another sport on their way up, but to be the GM is a lot different than being a scout. Again we're really splitting hairs here. My entire point is that it makes sense to view the opinions of those that are already working as NBA GMs to those that have jobs that are non basketball related.


Krause had been out of basketball for a bit working in baseball when he was offered the GM job with the Bulls. So he went directly from a lower baseball position to a higher basketball position. Still it isn't exactly what you are looking for.

David Kahn was a sportswriter who went to law school and then ended up working as the Pacers GM. Years later he is now the T-Wolves President. Did he become a better basketball mind as soon as he started working for the Pacers?



> But I guess at this point it is logical to ask about your profession and how the profession somehow gives you such arrogance when it comes to basketball opinion.


You are mixing concepts. My basketball opinions are formed from watching games and looking at the data available. I don't form an opinion quickly and I'm open to changing my opinion, but that does take a lot.

My statement about people being able to switch careers and be the general manager of an NBA team is based on the fact that there is no set path to becoming one. I'm not saying you can take someone that isn't a basketball fan and doesn't have a passion for the game and be successful. The successful GM's share traits that most successful high level managers have. 

A GM, regardless of background, needs staff under him that is skilled in their disciplines. Daryl Morey knows what he is good at and how to integrate the traditional scouting and player evaluations with what his computer models spit out. 

A GM has to understand how decisions effect the bottom line. They have to be able to communicate with people and they have to be able to understand why people have the opinion they do so they can make a decision on all of the data. These are all transferable skills. You take someone with those demonstrated skills and a passion for basketball and give them the detailed scouting reports and data analysis we don't have access to you have a front office that will be decent.

I don't see an NBA team ever doing this in today's NBA because the fan base would revolt. However, I see no reason to put NBA GM's on a pedestal. I'm sure in every NBA front office there is someone with plenty of time working their way up the ranks that disagrees strongly with decisions the GM makes.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> No, Riley isn't the only one that doesn't know what he is doing.


lol.......do I even need to point out how you're contradicting yourself again?

While it's tempting for me to argue with you about how likely it is for a GM that doesn't know what he's doing to construct a championship team, it's really sidetracking from our discussion at hand. I'm still more curious about how your opinion is more accurate than the majority of the basketball world (That would be 29 other GMs if we agree that Riley doesn't know what he's doing, as well as sportswriters and etc.) What exactly do you do that gives you that sort of basketball knowledge? I'm not being sarcastic here, I really want to know. Because according to you, the majority is ****ing stupid. I would like to know what it is that you have that none of us, including the GMs, the scouts, the coaches, the sportswriters, the commentators, appear to have. You answer may provide the means for all of us to better ourselves.



> A GM, regardless of background, needs staff under him that is skilled in their disciplines. Daryl Morey knows what he is good at and how to integrate the traditional scouting and player evaluations with what his computer models spit out.


You can expand the group all the way to the maid that washes the GM's laundry. The fact remains that you won't find that many people that would compare Taj Gibson to Chris Bosh (I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING). You obviously have something we don't. Please share.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

I'm not the only person in this thread to opine that Bosh is not a franchise player. I'm sure there are NBA front office personnel that feel the same way. Are you willing to agree to that or do you believe every GM would be willing to make Bosh their franchise player if they were starting from scratch?

If so, then your question boils down to why Bosh paired with James when factoring in the impact of second max contract on a salary cap for a franchise starting from scratch along with the on court performance isn't more impactful than James paired with Power Forward X or Big Man X if you want to include Centers in the discussion. 

So where on your scale of Big Men do you hit the point where you think the majority of NBA GM's would believe Bosh to be significantly more impactful? Do you balk at Pau Gasol? Zach Randolph? Bogut? Kaman? Brook Lopez? Bynum? Amare? Boozer? Noah? Kevin Love? Nene? Horford? Noah?

Note: since this about starting a franchise, I automatically eliminated Timmy and KG because of their age and mileage.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

cpawfan said:


> I'm not the only person in this thread to opine that Bosh is not a franchise player. I'm sure there are NBA front office personnel that feel the same way. Are you willing to agree to that or do you believe every GM would be willing to make Bosh their franchise player if they were starting from scratch?
> 
> If so, then your question boils down to why Bosh paired with James when factoring in the impact of second max contract on a salary cap for a franchise starting from scratch along with the on court performance isn't more impactful than James paired with Power Forward X or Big Man X if you want to include Centers in the discussion.
> 
> ...


Maybe reading the thread title would help you. 
*Start Franchise With LeBron/Bosh or Wade/Howard?*

That is the thread title. Not *Start Franchise with LeBron/x player or Wade/Howard*.

I'm not sure what is confusing about this.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

R-Star said:


> Maybe reading the thread title would help you.
> *Start Franchise With LeBron/Bosh or Wade/Howard?*
> 
> That is the thread title. Not *Start Franchise with LeBron/x player or Wade/Howard*.
> ...


I answered the thread title long ago so you are the one that is confused. A tangent developed (as happens so frequently in threads) based upon how I answered that question.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

cpawfan said:


> I answered the thread title long ago so you are the one that is confused. A tangent developed (as happens so frequently in threads) based upon how I answered that question.


No, you would be confused to think you can come in, say Chris Bosh sucks, and then change the thread to your liking. 

The question remains, Lebron and Bosh, or Wade and Howard.

If you don't want to discuss that, feel free to make your own thread. I would have assumed you were aware of this, being an admin and all.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> I'm not the only person in this thread to opine that Bosh is not a franchise player. I'm sure there are NBA front office personnel that feel the same way. Are you willing to agree to that or do you believe every GM would be willing to make Bosh their franchise player if they were starting from scratch?


Let's not try to wiggle away here. Not once in the thread did I argue about whether or not he is a franchise player. This argument started with you comparing him with Taj Gibson and that you feel Bosh doesn't affect the outcome of the game. I say you will not find a single GM in the league that agrees with you, as proven by the amount of interest they have shown in Bosh. You responded to that by saying that those GMs don't know what they're doing(I'd say "Not good at their jobs" but judging by your last response that's not what you mean either) and implying that your opinion on Bosh should be more accurate than theirs, and that's where we are right now.

I'm no longer interested in whether Bosh and Lebron is better than Taj and Lebron, I'm more interested in why you feel that your opinion is above everyone else's including those that works in the NBA. If you want to call everyone ****ing stupid, back it up and not back away.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> Actually, nope. I've never seen a liability that demands a double team from every team in the league. Usually the liabilities are left unguarded.


He's a liability because he still has inconsistent moves, gets denied the ball/double teamed easier than other franchise players, and struggles at the free throw line.



> Yet Howard anchors a top 5 defensive team and Bosh anchors the worst defensive team in the league(http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats?sort=defensiveEff&order=false)? Nothing you're saying makes much sense. Bosh is more refined offensively, sure, but Dwight is not the bum you seem to think he is. Put Dwight in Toronto and more than likely they're a top 10 defensive team... Offensively, he's efficient enough to be 20ppg guy right now.


Sorry if I gave the impression that Dwight's a bum; far from it. He's a great player, just Bosh is able to give you more bang for your buck since he's able to actually stay on the court and already has a refined game. Howard's stats are great but like last year's Finals has shown his impact can be shut down by great teams; keep him away from dunks and easy positions in the paint and he's boned offensively. His great stats are also met by bad ones such as being second in the league in technicals and being one of the leaders in fouls per game. 



> Honestly, I really dont relate to any of the arguments you've made either. To claim that only a homer would pick Howard/Wade is a joke. Even Phil Jackson said if he could take one guy in the league to start a franchise, it would be Dwight. Perhaps the GOAT coach _must_ not understand much about what it takes to win... Either that, or you're just ignorant to what Dwight brings to the table.


Its a homer pick because for one thing, you're a Magic fan that tried to equate Nelson's importance to KG's to the Celtics. Next, you're passing up the best player in the court today for someone thats been injury prone.

As for what the "GOAT" Phil Jackson says, I'll take that whatever comes out of his mouth with a grain of salt. This is also a guy that talked **** about the Jamison acquisition despite acquiring Pau Gasol in that infamous trade. As long as he's competing he's going to use the media as a form of mind-game like Shaq does.

Not only that but he and the Lakers managed to hold Dwight to just *15.4 PPG in the Finals under 50% FG in 42 minutes*. Howard's a player that has great positives but also great negatives particularly his fouling IQ and lack of offense. Also interesting to see that the top 3 players in PER include three of the four names here except for Howard whose at #8.


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## Futurama_Fanatic (Jul 21, 2005)

i'd want any combination consisting of Lebron


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> He's a liability because he still has inconsistent moves, gets denied the ball/double teamed easier than other franchise players, and struggles at the free throw line.


So getting double-teamed, therefore creating space for others, makes him a liability? Getting the other teams bigs in foul trouble and leading the league in FTA/G also makes him a liability?? I think liability is a horrific choice of words, but he brings alot to the table on both ends of the court tbh...



> Sorry if I gave the impression that Dwight's a bum; far from it. He's a great player, just Bosh is able to give you more bang for your buck since he's able to actually stay on the court and already has a refined game. Howard's stats are great but like last year's Finals has shown his impact can be shut down by great teams; keep him away from dunks and easy positions in the paint and he's boned offensively. His great stats are also met by bad ones such as being second in the league in technicals and being one of the leaders in fouls per game.


Bosh might give you a little more bang offensively, but if you factor in the mismatches and the foul problems that Dwight creates for other bigs, Dwight is as valuable as any other big man in the league on that end, despite some inefficiencies. 

If we want factor in defense, which I dont think you're paying any attention to at all, this just becomes a no brainer. You penalize Dwight for his Finals performance, but ignore the fact that Bosh has never led his team out of the 1st rnd. That's hypocritical.



> Its a homer pick because for one thing, you're a Magic fan that tried to equate Nelson's importance to KG's to the Celtics. Next, you're passing up the best player in the court today for someone thats been injury prone.


Well KG's back, and the Celtics still haven't shown that they're any better than us bro. If you would take a look @ how the teams were playing in the 1st half of last season, you really have no argument otherwise either. Nelson was playing incredibly well before the injury, and the Magic as team were tied with LA for the #1 overall seed... Not Boston. As a team, the Magic were better with Jameer just as much as Boston was better with KG, if not more going by record with and without said players. I'm not making it up.



> As for what the "GOAT" Phil Jackson says, I'll take that whatever comes out of his mouth with a grain of salt. This is also a guy that talked **** about the Jamison acquisition despite acquiring Pau Gasol in that infamous trade. As long as he's competing he's going to use the media as a form of mind-game like Shaq does.


Lakers actually gave up 2 players(Kwame & Crittendon), plus a damn good prospect(M. Gasol), and a pick to acquire Pau Gasol. Cleveland is giving up nothing but a pick to aqcuire Jamison, and making it obvious of the intentions that Z will be back. It's not a mind game, it's blatantly mocking the intent of the CBA by acting like they dont know what's going on.



> Not only that but he and the Lakers managed to hold Dwight to just *15.4 PPG in the Finals under 50% FG in 42 minutes*. Howard's a player that has great positives but also great negatives particularly his fouling IQ and lack of offense. Also interesting to see that the top 3 players in PER include three of the four names here except for Howard whose at #8.


At least both Dwight AND Wade have led their teams to the Finals. Wtf has Bosh done again?? Just stop now, brotha, clearly you're the one with some kind of agenda here. It's perfectly logical to think Dwight/Wade would be an effective tandem... Bron/Bosh is nice too, and they could very well be sucessfull, but the fact you're dismiss a Dwight/Wade tandem is incredibly ignorant.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> So getting double-teamed, therefore creating space for others, makes him a liability? Getting the other teams bigs in foul trouble and leading the league in FTA/G also makes him a liability?? I think liability is a horrific choice of words, but he brings alot to the table on both ends of the court tbh...


With his FT%, turnovers, foul-proneness, and limited offensive-moves, yes. Against good teams they can further limit his already limited game.



> Bosh might give you a little more bang offensively, but if you factor in the mismatches and the foul problems that Dwight creates for other bigs, Dwight is as valuable as any other big man in the league on that end, despite some inefficiencies.


Bosh also provides mismatches and foul problems for the other team except unlike Howard he doesn't get himself into as many bad foul situations.



> If we want factor in defense, which I dont think you're paying any attention to at all, this just becomes a no brainer. You penalize Dwight for his Finals performance, but ignore the fact that Bosh has never led his team out of the 1st rnd. That's hypocritical.


Not hypocritical; just an example of how good teams can handle a limited offensive player like Dwight. I've already repeatedly stated that Dwight's defense is better than Bosh's but my point was that his advantages there don't make up for his lackluster offensive game in this comparison; or that you're picking an injury prone guy in Wade for a franchise tandem and passing up the best player in the game. Howard's main problem isn't even his offense imo, its his foul-trouble as evident in being a top leader in technicals and fouls per game.



> Well KG's back, and the Celtics still haven't shown that they're any better than us bro.


They don't seem to be healthy yet but despite that they're only 3 wins behind Orlando and have the same amount of losses; and they've got a better road record. Recently they've won 6 of their last 10 which only trails Orlando by 1. 



> Lakers actually gave up 2 players(Kwame & Crittendon), plus a damn good prospect(M. Gasol), and a pick to acquire Pau Gasol. Cleveland is giving up nothing but a pick to aqcuire Jamison, and making it obvious of the intentions that Z will be back. It's not a mind game, it's blatantly mocking the intent of the CBA by acting like they dont know what's going on.


So when did Jackson say Howard was the guy he wanted to build a franchise around again? Oh yea, April 2009 where afterwards he came up with a defensive scheme that exploited and hindered Howard's Finals impact to the point of averaging 15.4 points per game on less than 50%FG and in over 40 minutes of play. Definitely a mind game; Jackson, like Shaq, uses the media as his playground and disses the best player in the game (James), refs, etc whatever he feels like.

M. Gasol was not a 'damn good prospect'; that trade is still more lopsided since LA basically gave away nothing for a *27 year old* Pau Gasol and Cavs gave away one of their key roleplayers (Big Z) and a pick for a *33 year old* Jamison. They'll get Z later but thats still a month without his chemistry and contributions.



> At least both Dwight AND Wade have led their teams to the Finals. Wtf has Bosh done again?? Just stop now, brotha, clearly you're the one with some kind of agenda here. It's perfectly logical to think Dwight/Wade would be an effective tandem... Bron/Bosh is nice too, and they could very well be sucessfull, but the fact you're dismiss a Dwight/Wade tandem is incredibly ignorant.


Yea, my agenda is trying to find out why someone wouldn't pick the combo with two of the top 3 players in PER (and one of them is by far the best player in the game) over a combo thats injury-prone, foul-prone, and limited offensively. Perfectly logical that a James/Bosh combo is a better pick to build this hypothetical franchise around. Not saying Wade and Howard isn't a great one, just defintitely the lesser of the options involved.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

R-Star said:


> No, you would be confused to think you can come in, say Chris Bosh sucks, and then change the thread to your liking.
> 
> The question remains, Lebron and Bosh, or Wade and Howard.
> 
> If you don't want to discuss that, feel free to make your own thread. I would have assumed you were aware of this, being an admin and all.


I said I would start the team with LeBron instead of Howard because the other two players in the equation didn't matter to me. How does that not answer the question?


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> I say you will not find a single GM in the league that agrees with you, as proven by the amount of interest they have shown in Bosh.


I disagree with you. I am quite sure there are GM's that would privately admit that they don't view Bosh as an impact player considering that there have been articles with information from anonymous scouts that have stated that about Bosh. 

You are confusing teams wanting to trade pieces they have for Bosh with them all viewing Bosh the same way. Some teams want Bosh as an upgrade over the salary they already have committed. Others have an existing star and are trying to make a mega team. Then there are teams that view Bosh as the cornerstone player for their franchise.

We will never agree on this point so there is no common ground to start from.



> I'm more interested in why you feel that your opinion is above everyone else's including those that works in the NBA. If you want to call everyone ****ing stupid, back it up and not back away.


I'm not backing away from anything. However, there is no basis for you to believe that every NBA GM would want to start a franchise with an empty cap situation and no other players on the roster by committing 50% of their cap to James and Bosh.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> I disagree with you. I am quite sure there are GM's that would privately admit that they don't view Bosh as an impact player considering that there have been articles with information from anonymous scouts that have stated that about Bosh.


Yet you say that they don't know what they're doing? Isn't that why you said you don't agree with them when I claimed that they don't share your views? *Now* they share your views? What?

Can't have it both ways dude. Remember, they're ****ing stupid, you're not though. How can they secretly share your views if they're ****ing stupid? Do you not see what type of stupid predicament you put yourself in?



> I'm not backing away from anything. However, there is no basis for you to believe that every NBA GM would want to start a franchise with an empty cap situation and no other players on the roster by committing 50% of their cap to James and Bosh.


Keep saying that to yourself and maybe some people would believe that. Your lame attempts at sidetracking from your original claims are obvious and frankly it's hilarious.

While I would argue that many GMs would want to start a team with James and Bosh, I don't see the point in doing so since you've already *made it clear* that you don't respect their opinion because they aren't good at their jobs. Why are we wasting our times discussing what they would do and wouldn't do when it doesn't affect your opinion? What we should be discussing is *your credentials * compared to those basketball personnel and how your opinion should be more accurate than theirs. After that we can decide whether you are right in calling them ****ing stupid. Go ahead, I've already asked this question about 3 times in this thread and I'm sure your response would be instant classic and perhaps sig worthy for everyone that's reading this.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> With his FT%, turnovers, foul-proneness, and limited offensive-moves, yes. Against good teams they can further limit his already limited game.
> 
> 
> 
> Bosh also provides mismatches and foul problems for the other team except unlike Howard he doesn't get himself into as many bad foul situations.


Hence why Bosh's team is 30th in def efficiency and Dwight's team is 3rd. I really feel sorry that you cant grasp the importance of Dwight impact defensively. I dont know how else to spell it out for you. I guess all you care about is fouls and offensive finesse.. If that's what you think it takes to win, then I guess I cant really change your mind...



> Not hypocritical; just an example of how good teams can handle a limited offensive player like Dwight. I've already repeatedly stated that Dwight's defense is better than Bosh's but my point was that his advantages there don't make up for his lackluster offensive game in this comparison; or that you're picking an injury prone guy in Wade for a franchise tandem and passing up the best player in the game. Howard's main problem isn't even his offense imo, its his foul-trouble as evident in being a top leader in technicals and fouls per game.


Dwight is one of the hardest players in the league to officiate because of his size and strength, and therefor you have to deal w/ the floppers. That's main reason why he get's T's, because people are always tugging and pulling on him w/o getting called, and/or flopping instead of playing him straight up. The rest of his fouls come from his attacking defense. It's not like he's constantly committing stupid or pointless fouls due to clumsiness or anything. He's the best defender in the league for a reason.



> They don't seem to be healthy yet but despite that they're only 3 wins behind Orlando and have the same amount of losses; and they've got a better road record. Recently they've won 6 of their last 10 which only trails Orlando by 1.


And Orlando has missed Rashard for 10 games, Meer for about 7 games, Vince for about 7 games, and then even factor in some games where those guys played less than 100%... It doesnt matter. Orlando still beat them 3x out of 4 this year...



> So when did Jackson say Howard was the guy he wanted to build a franchise around again? Oh yea, April 2009 where afterwards he came up with a defensive scheme that exploited and hindered Howard's Finals impact to the point of averaging 15.4 points per game on less than 50%FG and in over 40 minutes of play. Definitely a mind game; Jackson, like Shaq, uses the media as his playground and disses the best player in the game (James), refs, etc whatever he feels like.


So picking Dwight is a diss at LeBron now? :laugh: 

LA is just one of the few teams that had the incrdible length, depth, and youth to counter Howard. When you got 7' Bynum checking you, and then either 7'2 Pau Gasol or 6'11 Lamar Odom helping and doubling on the weakside, it's gonna be tough for any big man to go to work down there. I guess you can call it exploiting Howard, but if it takes constant double-teams and weakside support to exploit a player, then other guys on the team should be open to go to work. 



> M. Gasol was not a 'damn good prospect'; that trade is still more lopsided since LA basically gave away nothing for a *27 year old* Pau Gasol and Cavs gave away one of their key roleplayers (Big Z) and a pick for a *33 year old* Jamison. They'll get Z later but thats still a month without his chemistry and contributions.


Well the difference is the Lakers actually lost a few players. Critt was playing well @ the time, and Kwame was a bum, but at least none of those guys made their way back to LA... I mean Phil Jackson isn't the only guy suspicious about the intent of Z and Cavs when this deal was made. Half the execs in the league know the **** is sketch..



> Yea, my agenda is trying to find out why someone wouldn't pick the combo with two of the top 3 players in PER (and one of them is by far the best player in the game) over a combo thats injury-prone, foul-prone, and limited offensively. Perfectly logical that a James/Bosh combo is a better pick to build this hypothetical franchise around. Not saying Wade and Howard isn't a great one, just defintitely the lesser of the options involved.


It's a subjective question, nothing is definite. Clearly, I and others, like the thought of Dwight anchoring the D and Wade running the offense as a core that compliments each other. Clearly, you like the compliment of LeBron and Bosh's game better. Nothing is definite and there is logical arguments for each side, you just cant understand the fact that someone has a different opinion than your's for some reason...


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> Hence why Bosh's team is 30th in def efficiency and Dwight's team is 3rd. I really feel sorry that you cant grasp the importance of Dwight impact defensively. I dont know how else to spell it out for you. I guess all you care about is fouls and offensive finesse.. If that's what you think it takes to win, then I guess I cant really change your mind...


Thats an assumption, Howard does have a great impact defensively; just not to the point for me to dismiss his drawbacks when it comes to foul-proneness or his limited offense.



> Dwight is one of the hardest players in the league to officiate because of his size and strength, and therefor you have to deal w/ the floppers. That's main reason why he get's T's, because people are always tugging and pulling on him w/o getting called, and/or flopping instead of playing him straight up. The rest of his fouls come from his attacking defense. It's not like he's constantly committing stupid or pointless fouls due to clumsiness or anything. He's the best defender in the league for a reason.


Big guys can be difficult to officiate but Howard's tendency to camp in the lane and use his elbows generates a lot of those fouls and easy calls. Not saying that he doesn't get bogus calls (just like everyone else in the league) but his actions are the primary culprit for a lot if not most of 'em - thats why he's one of the league leaders in both fouls per game and technicals.



> And Orlando has missed Rashard for 10 games, Meer for about 7 games, Vince for about 7 games, and then even factor in some games where those guys played less than 100%... It doesnt matter. Orlando still beat them 3x out of 4 this year...


Its going to depend on health but both teams are pretty close to eachother otherwise.



> So picking Dwight is a diss at LeBron now? :laugh:


Who knows what Jackson was thinking but probably, or he could've been trying to give Howard a false sense of confidence. Then again he made that comment before basically shutting down Howard's offense in the Finals. In this thread though it is a diss since he's the best player in the game paired up with the third best player PER wise against an injury and foul- prone combo.



> LA is just one of the few teams that had the incrdible length, depth, and youth to counter Howard. When you got 7' Bynum checking you, and then either 7'2 Pau Gasol or 6'11 Lamar Odom helping and doubling on the weakside, it's gonna be tough for any big man to go to work down there. I guess you can call it exploiting Howard, but if it takes constant double-teams and weakside support to exploit a player, then other guys on the team should be open to go to work.


Its not just LA; he only averaged 16.4 points against a KG-less Celtics team as well. Howard does have trouble going up against other talented bigs; IIRC Yao usually gives him all sorts of problems too. 



> I mean Phil Jackson isn't the only guy suspicious about the intent of Z and Cavs when this deal was made. *Half the execs in the league know the **** is sketch..*


Likewise with the infamous Pau Gasol trade; the lopsideness doesn't really add up since Gasol was *27 years old* compared to Jamison who is *33*. Not to mention that Gasol is a much better player.



> It's a subjective question, nothing is definite. Clearly, I and others, like the thought of Dwight anchoring the D and Wade running the offense as a core that compliments each other. Clearly, you like the compliment of LeBron and Bosh's game better. Nothing is definite and there is logical arguments for each side, you just cant understand the fact that someone has a different opinion than your's for some reason...


From what I've seen its mostly fans from Miami, Orlando, and Bron haters that sided with the Wade/Howard combo.

Doesn't make much sense to pass up the best player in the game and a combo that has 2 of the 3 best players in PER. Wade is injury prone, Howard foul prone and limited offensively; seems like an easy enough decision. With Bosh he also doesn't have to camp or take up space in the paint; its just an overall more talented and versatile combination.

They are both great combo's, just Lebron/Bosh is greater. We'll agree to disagree?:starwars:


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

There's some pretty goofy arguments going on in this thread...

Wade and Howard compliment each others skillsets better I think, and they would both end up being NBA First Team Defensive players. But you can't pick against the best player in the league, especially with Bosh alongside him. Bosh would be extremely impactful next to James, not to mention he wouldn't be nearly the defensive liability he is on the Raptors. Nobody plays any kind of defense on that team, it's pathetic. Bosh clearly showed the ability to at least be an average defender in the Olympics. Put him on a team with LeBron and it will be a top 5-10 defensive team.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> Yet you say that they don't know what they're doing? Isn't that why you said you don't agree with them when I claimed that they don't share your views? *Now* they share your views? What?


I never addressed your contention that all of them would agree with you until now. Bottom line is I don't care how many of them agree with me



> Can't have it both ways dude. Remember, they're ****ing stupid, you're not though. How can they secretly share your views if they're ****ing stupid? Do you not see what type of stupid predicament you put yourself in?


I haven't put myself in any predicament. You are the one the places value on having an opinion that NBA GM's share. My pointing out that some of them disagree with you has no bearing upon what I think of them. I'm slaughtering your sacred cow.




> What we should be discussing is *your credentials * compared to those basketball personnel and how your opinion should be more accurate than theirs. After that we can decide whether you are right in calling them ****ing stupid. Go ahead, I've already asked this question about 3 times in this thread and I'm sure your response would be instant classic and perhaps sig worthy for everyone that's reading this.


This is a message board. The credentials of any poster are immaterial. You can choose to value or dismiss my opinion based upon whatever factors you want. You stated long ago what you think of my opinion, yet I've still humored you and responded to you.

All it takes is critical reasoning and a list of NBA transactions and draft choices to evaluate how poorly NBA GM's do their jobs. If you choose to believe that the majority of NBA GM's aren't ****ing stupid then great for you.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> I never addressed your contention that all of them would agree with you until now. Bottom line is I don't care how many of them agree with me


I don't really think you see the contradiction in your own statements.

A couple pages ago when you claimed that Taj Gibson and Chris Bosh makes similar impact to the game outcome, I responded by saying that the majority (that would include GMs) disagrees with you. To which you responded by saying that those GMs don't know how to do their jobs. What I am asking is why would you now make a statement of the following 



> I am quite sure there are GM's that would privately admit that they don't view Bosh as an impact player


when in fact you have already discredited them previously. I am not arguing with you about whether GMs feel that Gibson and Bosh makes similar impact because frankly that would be retarded, I'm asking you what basketball knowledge do you possess that makes your views more accurate than theirs. Instead of answering this question, you are going back to discussing the views of the GMs that you have discredited in the first place. It makes absolutely no sense to do so from your perspective and it just seems like you're trying to sidetrack the argument.



> This is a message board. The credentials of any poster are immaterial. You can choose to value or dismiss my opinion based upon whatever factors you want. You stated long ago what you think of my opinion, yet I've still humored you and responded to you.


I've said it a few pages ago that I agree with R-star when he said that everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how moronic it may seem. I am only curious to know why is it that you feel that your basketball knowledge gives you the arrogance to discredit everyone else(going as far as insulting their overall intelligence), including those that are as high up the basketball ladder as the general managers in the NBA.

Just answer the question with a statement that starts 

"I feel that I know more about basketball decisions than the majority of people because ......"

and we would be on our way. Hopefully it's more than sitting behind a computer and read stats all day. Because that might be an experience that's shared by many here at bbf.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

> I'm asking you what basketball knowledge do you possess that makes your views more accurate than theirs.


Try this: Go review all of the transactions and draft choices the Raptors made under Babcock. How many of them did you agree with you found out about them? How many times were you correct when you agreed and disagreed with his decisions?

I'm guessing you were more accurate than he was. When it comes to the Nets under Thorn, I am more accurate than he has been. A lot of fans were more accurate than Kevin McHale and Elgin Baylor. Zeke made a lot of poor decision when he ran the Knicks that a lot of fans correctly predicted were poor decisions. I can go on and on with examples which demonstrate why it is perfectly reasonable to question the competence of most NBA GMs.



> I am only curious to know why is it that you feel that your basketball knowledge gives you the arrogance to discredit everyone else(going as far as insulting their overall intelligence), including those that are as high up the basketball ladder as the general managers in the NBA.


I don't allow the wisdom of crowds to dictate my opinion. I am comfortable in my ability to analyze the potential success or failure of an NBA transaction when I give the matter a thorough review. My track record on Nets and Nuggets transactions is very good. Of course I have made mistakes as all humans do (damn you Julius Hodge). I utilize my years as risk management professional and I don't form opinions quickly. I judge myself as harshly as I do NBA GM's. My analysis of the track record of NBA GM's is that most aren't good at their job.

The fans that posts on message boards are generally more advanced than you average basketball fan. When people have a different opinion than me, I generally take the time to understand why they believe what they believe. I spent hours upon hours trying to understand why some thought Vince was as good as Kobe and better than TMac.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> Thats an assumption, Howard does have a great impact defensively; just not to the point for me to dismiss his drawbacks when it comes to foul-proneness or his limited offense.
> 
> 
> 
> Big guys can be difficult to officiate but Howard's tendency to camp in the lane and use his elbows generates a lot of those fouls and easy calls. Not saying that he doesn't get bogus calls (just like everyone else in the league) but his actions are the primary culprit for a lot if not most of 'em - thats why he's one of the league leaders in both fouls per game and technicals.


I guess I just dont understand why you're harping so much on this so-called 'limited' offense. He is no less effective offensively than a guy like Pau Gasol, and avgs just as many ppg w/ better efficiency... If he didn't get hacked so much he could probably avg more, but he is a below avg FT shooter... The way you harp on his offense tho, i'd think you were talking about Ben Wallace... Dwight is a pretty capable offensive player, and causes havoc for alot of teams so I just cant relate to that argument... If you're expecting Hakeem to show up, then yeah he's not _that_ great... But as far as viable option who can get you 20 every night, he's definitely that caliber of an offensive weapon and has a top 10 PER. He's the #1 guy teams gameplan against on a top 4 team, give dude some credit.

Yeah he is a little immature and will get some T's for cursing @ officials, but he's not someone who will do it @ a key juncture in a game. Almost all of his T's come early in games over floppers and divers, Or if the games out of reach and he gets a bad call he might say something... He's not gonna jeapordize a game with a T, though, so I dont see how that's important. Like I said before, the rest of the fouls come from his aggressive defense which is apart of his game. The aggresive defense is the reason why his team is a finals contender right now, and why Bosh's team is likely a 5th seed in the E that wont do any damage when the games slow down...




> Its not just LA; he only averaged 16.4 points against a KG-less Celtics team as well. Howard does have trouble going up against other talented bigs; IIRC Yao usually gives him all sorts of problems too.


True, talented bigs do give him problems, more specifically guys that our longer and/or thicker than him.. Considering that Bosh is neither, I dont think he'd cause many problems tho. 



> Doesn't make much sense to pass up the best player in the game and a combo that has 2 of the 3 best players in PER. Wade is injury prone, Howard foul prone and limited offensively; seems like an easy enough decision. With Bosh he also doesn't have to camp or take up space in the paint; its just an overall more talented and versatile combination.


What if you could get the guy with the 2nd best PER and team him with the most dominant defensive presence in the game, who also has a top 10 PER? For NBA execs, I dont think it'd be as easy of a decision as you make it sound. The only thing is Wade is cpl years older, but if this just a 2 or 3 yr
window for a ring, I go defense 1st with Dwight and then take a Wade/Melo to handle the perimeter game.



> They are both great combo's, *just Lebron/Bosh is greater.* We'll agree to disagree?:starwars:


Lol. Yeah, whatever. :whiteflag:


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> Try this: Go review all of the transactions and draft choices the Raptors made under Babcock. How many of them did you agree with you found out about them? How many times were you correct when you agreed and disagreed with his decisions?


I am by no means claiming that GMs don't make mistakes, however to go as far as saying that many of them don't know what they're doing and go even further to call them ****ing stupid isn't something that I agree with. We are not talking about where a single or even a couple GMs that would agree that Taj Gibson is comparable with Chris Bosh. When the majority of them feels a certain way, the majority of the times that's the accurate view.

You seem to fail to understand the simple logic that these GMs got to where they are due to their superior knowledge and experience in basketball. To imply that a non professional can simply step in and do a better job or as well of a job than them in terms of basketball decisions is comical. Yes, there might be instances where everyone is wrong (Ex. Darko Milicic), but on the whole these guys are paid for a reason. It certainly doesn't make any sense to discredit a bunch of them because of some instances where they may have wronged.



> I don't allow the wisdom of crowds to dictate my opinion. I am comfortable in my ability to analyze the potential success or failure of an NBA transaction when I give the matter a thorough review. My track record on Nets and Nuggets transactions is very good. Of course I have made mistakes as all humans do (damn you Julius Hodge). I utilize my years as risk management professional and I don't form opinions quickly. I judge myself as harshly as I do NBA GM's. My analysis of the track record of NBA GM's is that most aren't good at their job.


I have no problem with how you form your opinion. I do have a problem with the way you discredit NBA GMs as well as the majority of fans.

The bottom line is this. I feel that when the *majority* of the basketball experts, that would be the GMs, the scouts, creditable basketball analysts share a certain opinion, that opinion most of the time is correct. There may be times where I feel differently, however I would in no way, shape, or form discredit their views due to feeling that I am somehow above them in terms of intelligence and basketball knowledge. I certainly don't have the arrogance to go around feeling that everyone else is ****ing stupid and that I am above everybody. That is what you have implied through these posts and it has left some of us confused as to whether pity you or laugh at you for your ignorance.

Of course, if you wish to continue feeling this way, it would make sense for you to explain how you are above everybody. However up until now I am seeing the exact opposite through your replies. I urge you to try harder and not contradict yourself while you're doing so.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Can I start my franchise with Lebron and Durant instead of Lebron and Bosh? A Lebron/Durant pick and roll would be insane, and the drive and kick game would be unstoppable. Plus Lebron can probably play power forward better than Bosh anyways.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Can I start my franchise with Lebron and Durant instead of Lebron and Bosh? A Lebron/Durant pick and roll would be insane, and the drive and kick game would be unstoppable. Plus Lebron can probably play power forward better than Bosh anyways.


No. It's Lebron/Bosh vs Wade/Howard

You have to play by the rules. If you want, you can replace Bosh with a similar player. Like Taj Gibson or Kwame Brown, seeing as how they're about as impactful as Bosh is you ask cpawfan.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

R-Star said:


> No. It's Lebron/Bosh vs Wade/Howard
> 
> You have to play by the rules. If you want, you can replace Bosh with a similar player. Like Taj Gibson or Kwame Brown, seeing as how they're about as impactful as Bosh is you ask cpawfan.


How about Lebron and Kedrick Perkins then? I'd take them. Perkins checks Howard, and Lebron beats Wade.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> How about Lebron and Kedrick Perkins then? I'd take them. Perkins checks Howard, and Lebron beats Wade.


You'll have to ask cpawfan. He may view Perkins as a superior player to Bosh.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I love Taj Gibson, but even his mama would read this thread and think you're dope.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

futuristxen said:


> How about Lebron and Kedrick Perkins then? I'd take them. Perkins checks Howard, and Lebron beats Wade.


I think Carmelo Anthony is the best possible fit for Dwight out of anybody in this league... You can take Lebron and whoever, i dont care. Give me Dwight and Melo all day, and it's a wrap! Too much offense, too much defense, too much versatility. How do you stop that duo?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> I think Carmelo Anthony is the best possible fit for Dwight out of anybody in this league... You can take Lebron and whoever, i dont care. Give me Dwight and Melo all day, and it's a wrap! Too much offense, too much defense, too much versatility. How do you stop that duo?


I told you, I'd take Durant and run you guys out of the building. Good luck trying to stop a Lebron/Durantula pick and roll.

Combining one of the best playmakers with maybe the best finisher in the league? Both super young. We'll be winning championships for years.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

^Better hope they dont miss, cuz Dwight will be eating glass.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> ^Better hope they dont miss, cuz Dwight will be eating glass.


We'll get cheap role players who do that. It's not 2 on 2 I don't think. 

Our lineup will be like this:

PG: Daniel Gibson
SG: Lebron
SF: Durantula
PF: Varejao
C: Gortat 

So we're using only bench players from good teams along with Lebron and Durant, and I think it's enough to win a title.

Lebron will play point guard like he did with the Cavs the a month or so back. And all of these players are in their mid 20s or younger so it's a core we can keep for a long long time.


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

I kind agree that LeBron and Durant would be possibly the most deadly duo. Their games kind of compliment each other. There really isn't another Center other than maybe Dwight Howard that could hurt you the way LeBron/Durant will hurt your perimeter defenders.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Too easy...

PG: CJ Watson
SG: Corey Brewer
SF: MELO
PF: Joakim Noah
C: Dwight

Save money on cheap role playing guards, instead of overpaid big men. We got defense, rebounding, and scoring, and Dwight will be too much down low for your Varejao and Polish Hammer... Put Corey on KD, and let Melo do work on LBJ.

Heck, you dont even need Joakim. Just move Melo to the 4, and bring in someone like JR Smith if you need a scoring punch. So easy to build around this core.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Maybe I'm missing something here but how does [Carmelo + Dwight] > [Lebron + Dwight]?


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

This is too easy. Howard/Wade. Howard changes the game on defense to the point you have to plan for that as well, not to mention Wade is a very good defender himself. Wade and Howard are both good offensive players as well. This is a no brainer.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> We'll get cheap role players who do that. It's not 2 on 2 I don't think.
> 
> Our lineup will be like this:
> 
> ...


With Durant and LeBron, you could pull three guys from that "worst starters" thread in the forum and still be a dominant team.


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