# Baker fined, suspend



## Anima (Jun 3, 2003)

> The Boston Celtics announced Jan. 6 that the team was notified of Vin Baker's non-compliance with his treatment program by a doctor jointly selected by Baker and the Celtics to oversee his aftercare. This non-compliance results in an automatic fine of an undisclosed sum and a three-game suspension effective immediately.


http://www.nba.com/celtics/


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

Dammit.


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

This is it for Vin. The dude crapped all over the C's last year and after a promising first quarter of the season he is starting to do it again.

He will be suspended for 3 games then I would place his butt on IR. 

Let's see what Perkins and Hunter can do.

What a soak!

Lets remember to keep our comments tasteful. The subject you entered for this post crossed the line. ---agoo


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## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

The news just said that he isn't complying with his treatment it did not say that he is drinking again.
That should be made clear.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

If there is one thing that sums up how I feel about this, it is....


:no:


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## theBirdman (Jun 20, 2003)

:upset: 

I talked about this a few days ago. I had a feeling something was wrong! I guess I was right!
Is this the end of Vin Baker the basketball player? He couldnt have been in a better situation here in Boston with all the support and now this? :upset: 

I am very dissapointed!

It is time for Hunter and Perkins!


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## lochdoun (Jun 11, 2003)

It's time to get out from under his contract...


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lochdoun</b>!
> It's time to get out from under his contract...


By the time they litigate the issue the contract will expire. Baker is just another millstone like Grant Hill.

The Celtics simply have to do the right thing from a human standpoint and forget about breaking the contract. It won't happen unless Vin retires voluntarily.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

This is todays paper.

http://celtics.bostonherald.com/celtics/celtics.bg?articleid=265



> ``Quite a lot,'' he said of how frequently he has been tested since the start of the season. ``At times it's tough. My days are so much different now than the other players' with the aftercare program, and what I have to do after practice ends for the day. I joke with my friends about it.
> 
> ``It's not as if I just come home for the day. I come home, get tested, and then I go meet with my therapist. That's a full day. So for me, this is not just a basketball issue. There's a lot of things going on in my life right now.''


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

*Dump his arse...*

I have been a huge supporter of Vin and he really has let me down!

Breach of contract = Cut (contract voided)

The bulls should have done the same thing with Jay Williams.

And dont give me that crap about human standpoint! The other 14 guys on this team are busting their butts off to win a championship and with Drunk Vin taking up more money than anyone else on the roster take it and use it for someone who will contribute!(lots of FA this offseason- KMart could be one, Barry, etc.)

BTW aqua you can edit you qoute by my to say this:

"Vin wont torch you he will out drink you"


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

*Re: Dump his arse...*



> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> I have been a huge supporter of Vin and he really has let me down!
> 
> Breach of contract = Cut (contract voided)
> ...








Not to be harsh, but u r being harsh. It didn't come out and sey he actually drank, that's what has me confused, is the terminology they used just to cover that up or what????????


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

*I dont know...*

I hope I am wrong but if he did drink then that is how I feel, 

if he didnt drink then all is fair and he should keep doing what he is doing and maybe be a little more responsible with his appointments or whatever it may be.


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

*Re: I dont know...*



> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> I hope I am wrong but if he did drink then that is how I feel,
> 
> if he didnt drink then all is fair and he should keep doing what he is doing and maybe be a little more responsible with his appointments or whatever it may be.








That's what I am wondering, di he just miss an appt? Or did he drink>?


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Are you guys blind?*

Has anybody seen Vin play over the past month? The past week? He looks like the guy that played the first couple of months last season. He is slower than molasses out there. He is awful. It wasn't that he just missed an appointment. 

I agree with Big John that the Celtics have to try to do right by Vin. But if they can do that and cancel his contract, they should.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

They can try to cancel his contract but it won't work. He'll take the matter to court, and so will the NBA Players Association. By the time everything is sorted out, it will be 2006.

If the Celtics look to the league for cap relief, they won't get it. David Stern is a New Yorker and a closet Knicks fan, and will do nothing to help the Celtics. They couldn't get cap relief when Reggie Lewis died.

They might as well be good guys, because there is no realistic alternative. All this tough talk about how Vin let the team down, and how he deserves to get cut off, etc. etc. doesn't mean squat. It's just verbiage. I'm sure Jerry Callahan will write another column ripping Baker. Go read it if it makes you feel better. It won't make the team better.


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## lochdoun (Jun 11, 2003)

The Celtics have a clause in his contract that if he strayed away from the agreement and started drinking they could get out of his contract. So long Vinny, another team will give him a chance.


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

> I'm sure Jerry Callahan will write another column ripping Baker. Go read it if it makes you feel better. It won't make the team better


No it might not make us better but if we lost 13.5M off our cap it would!!


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> No it might not make us better but if we lost 13.5M off our cap it would!!


It will not happen unless Vin voluntarily retires or they negotiate a buyout.

What they CAN do is suspend Vin indefinitely without pay until he shapes up. That will save them real money, but Vinnie's 13.5 M will stay on the cap. He will still be under contract.


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## h180ys (Nov 10, 2003)

When they suspend Vinny last season, did he actually get paid?
I wondered if we can get rid of Vinny's contract? That would be great but won't happen.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

A man might have slipped back into his alcoholism and depression and there's about 12 posts here about getting rid of his contract? Could we perhaps just remember that these guys who put on a uniform 82 nights a year are really just human beings going to work like you, your family, and your friends?

Aqua, that was a great article you posted, but you missed the most important paragraph:



> Baker, who by written agreement with the Celtics undergoes routine therapy and frequent testing for alcohol, *said he hasn't given in to the temptation of alcohol*, and thus hasn't fallen out of step in the rigid program.


Sure he could lie, people do that I know. Lets give the guy the benefit of the doubt here though. Also, lets remember that he has depression as well and his poor play might be affecting his mood and thus his sticking with the therapy and testing.


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

*Please lets PITY VIN!*

For one, this is his profession and he gets paid more than 10 heart surgeons who saves lives, and my comments will not affect Vin in any way! To say he is a person yes you are right but not a smart one and is that my fault, NO! And please tell me the last time he put a uniform on for 82 nights? When his arse is in the military fighting wars and making less than 30K a yr then come talk to me about him being a person and caring so much about him and his life! What are you doing to help his situation? Why not start a lets pity Vin thread! IF he did go back and drink he deserves everything everyone here is saying b/c not many people get a second chance at a starting PF spot in the NBA, especially after all his problems.


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## lochdoun (Jun 11, 2003)

Like I posted above, the Celtics put a clause in his contract after he went into rehab that stated if he ever went back to alcoholism they can void his contract. I have heard this from a couple of sources already.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

All in all, I haven't seen anyone say that he's been drinking....and btw the Baker I have seen in the last couple of months, and weeks is a Baker who was sitting on the bench in favor of Walter McCarty.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

One party to a contract does not just decide to add a clause. Both parties have to agree to any amendment, and all of the terms and conditions must comply with the collective bargaining agreement. If Baker's agent or attorney agreed to something like that then he (or she) ought to be shot. I suspect that your sources are wrong.


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## bballin (Jun 3, 2003)

I've had to drop him from my fantasy team, but i'm hoping that he's hit the comeback version of the rookie wall and will begin to play well again after the all star break. We still need a low post presence (if obie would actually use one:upset: ) and vin looks like it for the foreseeable future. For the sack of the celtics, i hope he comes back and puts together another 25 high quality games


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lochdoun</b>!
> Like I posted above, the Celtics put a clause in his contract after he went into rehab that stated if he ever went back to alcoholism they can void his contract. I have heard this from a couple of sources already.


If anyone could find a good source to the terms of his new agreement with the Celtics I am sure we would all appreciate it.

I am hoping one comes up in one of the Boston papers.


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

*Trying to remain tasteful*

I will try to remain tasteful, and civil in discussing the Vin Baker situation. It is hard. I fear that Vin is letting another opportunity to succeed with the Celtics pass him by. 

Vin's play has been terrible the past few weeks. Is it alcohol? He says it is not. He thinks that perhaps he has hit a wall from all his hard training this summer and early this season. He is 32. Not young by NBA standards but certainly not overly old. If he truly is hitting a wall then the Celtics and Vin may be in trouble. If he hits a wall this early in the season after training the way an NBA player should then I doubt that he will ever be a productive player in the NBA.

I can speculate. It is what fans and the media spend alot of time and energy doing. I speculate that Vin has fallen off the wagon. It has been noticed by those close to him like Jim O'Brien and his teammates. His play has slipped. Jim being Jim he has started to cut his role and his minutes. That is the coaches job. If Vin is jeopardizing the success of the team then he needs to sit. Nobody has said that Vin has been drinking. I am speculating. I have the right to as a lifelong Celtic fan.

I also have the right to criticize Vin if he is drinking again. Alcohol is a demon. It can make a man risk everything good in his life. It is everywhere he looks. I understand that Vin is a human and that he has a serious problem. If he were a good man he would do the right thing if he cannot control his problem: walk away. He should not make his problem his teammates problem, his coaches problem, or his fans problem. He should walk away. 

The Celtic organization has handled this situation with class and dignity. I hope they continue to do so. I also hope Vin Baker can handle this situation with the same class and dignity.


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## jbs (May 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> All in all, I haven't seen anyone say that he's been drinking....and btw the Baker I have seen in the last couple of months, and weeks is a Baker who was sitting on the bench in favor of Walter McCarty.


According to this article in the Globe Baker seems to have been drinking. This is all terribly sad.  
http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2004/01/07/baker_in_noncompliance/


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## theBirdman (Jun 20, 2003)

"A league source said Baker failed at least two recent tests, and a source close to the power forward confirmed that."

So, that is it! He had the best support, everything he could have wanted, but he still started drinking? He will never be in such a good situation again, that is why I dont believe he can come back and stay sober! 


About he fine:
" The agreement Baker reached with the Celtics last summer provides for three strikes when there is noncompliance. The first strike results in a fine (in this case, it is believed to be less than six figures). The second strike results in a suspension of short duration. The third results in an indefinite suspension.
After a third strike, only NBA medical officials have the power to determine when or whether Baker can return. The suspension, which takes effect immediately, will cost Baker approximately $500,000 in pay.
*According to a league source, once Baker goes past strike three, the team has the right to terminate his contract, but such a step is not a foregone conclusion.*


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

I would just like to say I think every Boston fans feelings are legit ones. I will also that with the talk of voiding Vin's contract is moot at this point. Not once as stated a few times already, has it been said that he went back to drinking again. I also think he knows that HE, VIN BAKER in the respect of the Celtics organization said that if he drank, he would lose his contract immediately. Obviously he hasnt lost his contract so therefore you can basically see that it was just violation of his after care program.


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## jbs (May 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> I would just like to say I think every Boston fans feelings are legit ones. I will also that with the talk of voiding Vin's contract is moot at this point. Not once as stated a few times already, has it been said that he went back to drinking again. I also think he knows that HE, VIN BAKER in the respect of the Celtics organization said that if he drank, he would lose his contract immediately. Obviously he hasnt lost his contract so therefore you can basically see that it was just violation of his after care program.


I thought is was clear from the following words in the Globe-article that he had been drinking. Is it possible to interpret them differently? Maybe I'm reading too much into this:

"A league source said Baker failed at least two recent tests, and a source close to the power forward confirmed that. "Although I am on the road to recovery, I have taken a step back," said Baker, when reached by phone last night. "I am very disappointed in myself. I am redoubling my efforts to stick with my recovery. It is a lifelong process that I take very seriously and one day at a time.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

*You guys are too quick to jump*

You guys are terrible. Vin Baker is a person, he's going through a VERY serious problem right now, one that's hard for anyone to kick but he has depression added to it and a career in the spotlight. In November and the first half of December he was tearing it up for us and everyone loved him, now he has a setback and you all hate him. :no: 
If any of you ever listened to post game interviews of the team you'd see that Vinny is one of the most intelligent and articulate guys on this team. He has experience, he was an all-star, and when healthy he can be a go to guy on this team. A few months is all he had before getting ready for this season to try to kick a major addiction that a lot of people have to do in a year or more. Give the guy a break, be supportive, he is a person not a superhero. Besides the way this team blows, they NEED Vinny to get healthy because they NEED him on this team right now. 
In 3 games he may come back and score 20 and grab 10 and again like at the beginning of the season and then what, let me guess, he's wonderful again.....:|


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*White Rhino, You ARE Vin's Dad*

No, you're right. We shouldn't hate Vin, we should be compassionate. But I'm sorry, I love the Celtics more than I do Vin. If there's a way to get rid of his contract, they should pursue it. 

You're right again when you say we need him. Without him or Eric Williams, we have NO post presence. And we're stuck with Waltah launching threes. That will not win us games. But Baker has been drinking since at least before the Atlanta game. It took him months to get back into the kind of physical and mental shape he was in when he was playing OK. He won't just come back next week and play like that again. They should IL him for a couple of months and activate Perkins.

At $13.5 million a year, the Celtics can not afford to be too patient or too compassionate. Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jbs</b>!
> 
> 
> I thought is was clear from the following words in the Globe-article that he had been drinking. Is it possible to interpret them differently? Maybe I'm reading too much into this:
> ...


I dont know what to believe now, because this same article was refuted in another article I just read. Too much info too soon and not enough facts


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

*Re: White Rhino, You ARE Vin's Dad*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> At $13.5 million a year, the Celtics can not afford to be too patient or too compassionate. Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.


We screwed ourselves by getting the guy in the first place. 

As for whether or not Vin drank, who knows? The Globe ran two articles and one said he did (and that was written by a columnist), and the other didn't mention it. A Herald article said he didn't. One new broadcast quotes the Globe, the other quotes the Herald. We don't really know.

As for Vin's play falling off, it could well be the beverage. However, he said he hit a wall after all the training he did in the off-season to get in shape. The guy went from being fat old Vin to being every bit as thin as Walter McCarty in a five month period. That's not your typical off-season.

He could be on the beverage again, but we don't know that for sure. We'll probably never know either.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

I don't agree that there is no post presence without Baker. Mihm has a decent post-up game, and so does Kendrick Perkins if O'Brien ever lets him on the floor. Blount can also score if he gets the ball, and in fact Blount has one of the best shooting percentages on the team. Brandon Hunter can play with his back to the basket or facing the basket.

Besides, if you run you don't need much of an offensive post up game. But of course O'Brien would never so that, at least not on a consistent basis.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

We DO need a post presence....and Vin is the only one we got. Chris Mihm, yes he could also be a good one and the 2 together would be great but unfortunately OB is stuck on Walter and Blount so Mihm rides the bench way more than he should. As for Blount he is not a presence down low, yeah he scores, on jumpshots, he's not the answer. Kendrick will be a great presence someday but it's Very obvious OB has NO plans of playing him this year so that point is moot, ditto Brandon. 

You need a post presence to run because someone has to grab the rebound and make the outlet pass. The best lineup this team could put on the floor would include both Mihm and Vin at C and PF respectfully. As for it taking months for Vin to get back....I don't think so, first of all we don't even know if he drank, second if he did he didn't slip as far as he had when he hit bottom. In the news Vin said he was going through a little setback on his road to recovery, I don't think he's hit bottom again and I don't think he's gonna need 5 months again. I'm so sick of the stupid 3 point offense this team puts on the floor and although I know Vin has issues, I've seen a desire in him to be the guy he used to be and I KNOW that when he is he can really help this team like he was earlier in the season. Like it or not he's gonna be here for another season or 2. I don't think Vin is our big issue, I think our big issue is OB....and I wouldn't be surprised if the reason Vin has had this setback was because he was playing so well yet OB started taking his minutes away because that happened way before Vin slipped. He was getting taken out of games when he was the ONLY guy on the team rebounding and scoring.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> You need a post presence to run because someone has to grab the rebound and make the outlet pass.


I was talking about offense, not defense. On defense Baker was a mediocre rebounder at best, so losing him costs nothing. Mihm and Blount are both better rebounders. So is Hunter.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

John I have to disagree with you because Vinny was averaging almost a double double before his minutes got cut. He was rebounding way more than Blount, Blount is not that great of a rebounder. Mihm, I agree is the best on the team, as for Hunter he's a rookie who has yet to play a minute so I don't think we can say that about him yet, just because he did it in Summer league against scrubs doesn't mean he'll do it in the NBA regular season, although I'd like him and Kendrick to both get a shot to show us if they can! I included each of their best months (Vin & Mark for rebounds this season)



> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> I was talking about offense, not defense. On defense Baker was a mediocre rebounder at best, so losing him costs nothing. Mihm and Blount are both better rebounders. So is Hunter.


Vins stats for November
Nov 29 at Bucks 94-100 L 23 3-9 0-1 2-2 2 1 3 1 0 0 2 3 8 
Nov 28 vsBucks 106-96 W 28 4-8 0-0 0-0 1 2 3 1 1 1 3 3 8 
Nov 26 at Magic 94-92 W 34 8-13 0-0 3-3 1 6 7 5 1 0 1 4 19 
Nov 24 vsKnicks 88-94 L 37 5-11 0-0 6-12 5 7 12 1 0 5 1 3 16 
Nov 21 at Sixers 85-87 L 40 7-15 0-0 8-9 2 2 4 2 0 2 1 4 22 
Nov 19 vsHornets 73-81 L 36 4-9 0-0 4-4 2 3 5 1 1 0 3 3 12 
Nov 17 at Knicks 86-89 L 34 7-14 0-0 6-6 1 7 8 2 0 1 3 3 20 
Nov 14 vsCavaliers 91-82 W 35 5-9 0-0 3-4 5 6 11 0 1 0 1 4 13 
Nov 12 vsBulls 82-89 L 32 4-11 0-0 4-6 6 2 8 1 1 0 1 6 12 
Nov 11 at Pacers 78-76 W 31 5-10 0-0 2-2 0 4 4 3 0 0 1 3 12 
Nov 09 vsKings 91-82 W 38 8-17 0-0 2-2 2 11 13 1 0 2 3 4 18 
Nov 07 vsNets 87-94 L 24 4-6 0-0 1-1 1 4 5 1 0 0 4 5 9 
Nov 05 at Pistons 88-96 L 35 9-14 0-0 2-2 4 2 6 2 3 0 2 3 20 
Nov 01 at Hornets 90-97 L 30 3-8 0-0 2-2 1 4 5 1 0 1 0 


Marks stats for December

Dec 31 vsHornets 94-96 L 35 7-8 0-0 0-0 1 7 8 2 1 2 4 4 14 
Dec 29 at Warriors 100-91 W 29 6-6 0-0 0-0 2 2 4 0 2 1 0 1 12 
Dec 28 at Lakers 82-105 L 21 1-4 0-0 0-0 1 3 4 0 0 0 1 2 2 
Dec 26 at Suns 104-102 W 25 4-7 0-0 8-9 1 2 3 0 0 1 0 3 16 
Dec 23 at Hawks 88-93 L 22 4-7 0-0 0-0 2 4 6 0 1 0 1 6 8 
Dec 21 vsSixers 87-84 W 22 0-0 0-0 3-4 0 3 3 0 0 3 1 2 3 
Dec 19 vsJazz 96-99 L 26 2-5 0-0 3-3 3 3 6 0 1 4 4 1 7 
Dec 17 vsMavericks 105-103 W 11 2-3 0-0 0-0 2 2 4 1 0 0 1 4 4 
Dec 15 vsTimberwolves 95-116 L 29 5-8 0-0 2-2 1 1 2 0 1 1 6 4 12 
Dec 13 at Cavaliers 105-98 W 19 1-3 0-0 2-4 1 2 3 2 0 0 1 4 4 
Dec 12 vsRaptors 114-111 W 23 6-8 0-0 1-2 2 5 7 1 0 0 1 1 13 
Dec 10 vsSuperSonics 126-112 W 20 3-4 0-0 0-0 1 3 4 1 1 1 2 4 6 
Dec 08 at Jazz 102-80 W 19 4-4 0-0 0-0 1 2 3 1 1 2 0 6 8 
Dec 07 at Nuggets 116-111 W 34 2-4 0-0 4-4 5 1 6 2 4 1 2 4 8 
Dec 05 vsSuns 106-110 L 16 0-1 0-0 2-4 0 3 3 1 0 0 0 1 2 
Dec 03 at Raptors 95-105 L 40 4-7 0-0 2-2 1 4 5 0 0 2 1 3 10 
Dec 01 vsGrizzlies 89-96 L 10 2-2 0-0 0-0 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 3 4 
REBOUNDS

Mark is averaging 4.5 rebounds this season Vinny is averaging 5.9 and it's only that low because he hasn't been playing.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> John I have to disagree with you because Vinny was averaging almost a double double before his minutes got cut. He was rebounding way more than Blount, Blount is not that great of a rebounder. Mihm, I agree is the best on the team, as for Hunter he's a rookie who has yet to play a minute so I don't think we can say that about him yet, just because he did it in Summer league against scrubs doesn't mean he'll do it in the NBA regular season, although I'd like him and Kendrick to both get a shot to show us if they can! I included each of their best months (Vin & Mark for rebounds this season)
> 
> 
> ...


As for Hunter, he was the NCAA's leading rebounder last year. In the Summer I saw him play against McCaskell and Dalembert, both 7 footers who are playing signficant minutes for the Sixers this year. Neither one of those guys could keep him off the boards.

Yesx, Blount is not a great rebounder, although he is on a par with Baker. Blount was not playing alot of minutes earlier in the year, so the numbers can be deceiving.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

Well like I said I'm all for giving Hunter a try but I know OB won't. I think Perkins could be a good rebounder too, he averaged in the high teens in high school for rebounds a game. They should both be given a shot to play and contribute....and Mihm should be our starting Center, enough with Walter already


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jbs</b>!
> 
> 
> According to this article in the Globe Baker seems to have been drinking. This is all terribly sad.
> http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2004/01/07/baker_in_noncompliance/


Thats sucks...but I do have a couple of questions.



> A league source said Baker failed at least two recent tests, and a source close to the power forward confirmed that.


How does someone fail "at least" two tests? Why not say he failed more then 2 or he failed 2? Why do they say "at least"?

And it was the holliday season, he might have been drinkin with friends....but when it says "at least 2 tests" well then its a little suspicious.

Also, since when can a player be told not to drink? I mean just imagin how many other players drink in the nba....


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## adamatic (Jan 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> John I have to disagree with you because Vinny was averaging almost a double double before his minutes got cut. He was rebounding way more than Blount, Blount is not that great of a rebounder. Mihm, I agree is the best on the team, as for Hunter he's a rookie who has yet to play a minute so I don't think we can say that about him yet, just because he did it in Summer league against scrubs doesn't mean he'll do it in the NBA regular season, although I'd like him and Kendrick to both get a shot to show us if they can! I included each of their best months (Vin & Mark for rebounds this season)



First off... just joined this board (found out about it over at KFFL), so Hello to ya'll.

Secondly, Vin Baker may pick up a few rebounds here or there, but he is an *awful* defender - especially compared to Mark Blount. Baker is so slow in his rotations and very often is out of position. 

As for having pity for good ole' Vin and his drinking problem... if its so much of a problem that he can't perform his job up to the standards of his contract, perhaps he should fully retire and leave the money on the table so that he can get himself right? 

I will have no pity whatsoever for him until he does this.


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## adamatic (Jan 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> 
> How does someone fail "at least" two tests? Why not say he failed more then 2 or he failed 2? Why do they say "at least"?
> 
> ...



He can be told not to drink because its written in to the terms of his agreement to be reinstated after last year's suspension. 

My hope is that the Globe article is correct and that its three strikes and you're out. If suspension comes w/ the 2nd strike, that means he has one more.

Vin's 13+ mill and Mills 5 mill = 18 mill = Kobe?

How sweet would that be?


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>adamatic</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How about a dominating PF or C. As this board knows: YOU CAN'T WIN WITH A GUARD.

All I can say is: Say it isn't son Vin. :no:


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## adamatic (Jan 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> 
> 
> How about a dominating PF or C. As this board knows: YOU CAN'T WIN WITH A GUARD.
> ...



Oh I agree. The C's need a post scorer and defender more than anything else, but if you got a chance to get Kobe (provided his legal troubles get cleared up) you go for it. Deal Davis for a defense first type of 4 or 5 player, let Mihm walk, then you got Raef and Perkins down low + a 3 years ago PJ Brown style defender.

Banks/Kobe/PP/Perkins/Raef and hello #17.

Hey it'll never happen, but it was fun to think about for 3 or 4 minutes.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>adamatic</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Vin's 13M + Mill's 6M + Pierce's 12M = Kobe

Vin's 13M + Mill's 6M = Peanuts.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

I don't want Kobe. I think he will stay out of jail, but even so he is a selfish player who demands the ball. He and Pierce could never coexist. Byrant also sulks when things don't go right and rests on defense. He's a great talent, but immature.

1. As I've stated before, the Celtics would be extraordinarily lucky to terminate Baker's contract. The matter would almost certainly go to arbitration, and if they lose there would be no cap relief. Remember what happened when the Warriors tried to terminate Sprewell's contract for choking Carliseimo?

2. It may sound cynical, but in some ways Baker's alcoholism is good for the Celtics. The only time the team gets any national publicity is in connection with Vin's story. Also, by being "good guys" the organization might be more attractive to blue chip free agents,

3. If by some miracle the Celtics have big bucks to spend I'd much rather spend them on Kenyon Martin (restricted FA) or Manu Ginobili.

4. They can gain alot by NOT trading Mills. There will be a number of very useful players available next year for the MLE or less. Eric Williams tops my list, but there are some other guys who might help this team: Mehmet Okur, Adonal Foyle, Stromile Swift (restricted FA), Gary Trent, Eddie Griffin (if not in jail), Antonio McDyess (if healthy) and Robert Traylor.

I think they need a rebounder, so I won't even list all of the smaller players like Turkoglu (Restricted FA), both Barry brothers, Jamal Crawford (restricted FA), Tony Kukoc and Bobby Sura.

5. Remember also that Mihm will be a restricted free agent too. Assuming that he continues to play well and they wish to retain him, they may need to reserve some money to match a potential outside offer.


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## Fatocesto (Oct 8, 2003)

hi all, can anybody tell me more news about vin's drinking affair?how is it right now?i mean, some of you say he didnt drink and others say he did....how long is vin's suspension? thx


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Fatocesto</b>!
> hi all, can anybody tell me more news about vin's drinking affair?how is it right now?i mean, some of you say he didnt drink and others say he did....how long is vin's suspension? thx


He's out for three games with the suspension. Whether or not he drank depends on what article you want to believe.


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## vandyke (Jan 8, 2004)

It is my understanding that there was an agreement signed off on by the players assoc., the Celts, and Vin himself that first violation was a fine, second was a fine and suspension, and third the Celts have the right to void the contract and he is already on his second strike, with a fine of about 500k, and the three game suspension, so his next violation the Celts have the right to teminate the contract:no:


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> I don't want Kobe. I think he will stay out of jail, but even so he is a selfish player who demands the ball. He and Pierce could never coexist. Byrant also sulks when things don't go right and rests on defense. He's a great talent, but immature.
> 
> 1. As I've stated before, the Celtics would be extraordinarily lucky to terminate Baker's contract. The matter would almost certainly go to arbitration, and if they lose there would be no cap relief. Remember what happened when the Warriors tried to terminate Sprewell's contract for choking Carliseimo?
> ...


Manu Ginobili? We already have three 2/3 players worth starting


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> 
> 
> Manu Ginobili? We already have three 2/3 players worth starting


So what? He's a great player. Trade somebody.


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## adamatic (Jan 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> I don't want Kobe. I think he will stay out of jail, but even so he is a selfish player who demands the ball. He and Pierce could never coexist. Byrant also sulks when things don't go right and rests on defense. He's a great talent, but immature.
> 
> 1. As I've stated before, the Celtics would be extraordinarily lucky to terminate Baker's contract. The matter would almost certainly go to arbitration, and if they lose there would be no cap relief. Remember what happened when the Warriors tried to terminate Sprewell's contract for choking Carliseimo?
> ...



Hold up...

You don't want Kobe because of character/maturity issues, yet you'd like to sign Kenyon Martin or Eddie Griffin?

Errr...

And in my opinion, if Vin f's up again and violates the three strike limit, it will not go to arbitration. The team, Vin, and the players association already signed off on it. Its specifically written in his contract at this point. The Spreewell choking incident, as well as many other situations in which a team tried to terminate a contract, were not specifically stated in the terms of agreement.

The simple fact that the players association actually agreed to these terms, to me, is quite suprising - but hey, i'll take it.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

I would sign Kenyon Martin in a heartbeat. What's wrong with his character? He's a warrior.

As for Eddie Griffin, he is a very screwed up kid but he is 6-10 and has talent. If the Nets sign him, it will be for the veterans' minumum, and he is unlikely to command much more than that when he becomes a FA.

Kobe makes 10-15 times that much and will demand a long-term contract. If Griffin doesn't work out, you just release him. No big deal. The only issue is whether or not he can poison your locker room. If Kobe doesn't work out, you are stuck for 15+ million per year for 6-7 years.

As for Baker, if he whiffs on that mythical "third strike" and the Celtics are able to terminate his contract without protracted arbitration proceedings, I will be shocked. I don't believe everything I read in the papers.


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## adamatic (Jan 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> I would sign Kenyon Martin in a heartbeat. What's wrong with his character? He's a warrior.
> 
> As for Eddie Griffin, he is a very screwed up kid but he is 6-10 and has talent. If the Nets sign him, it will be for the veterans' minumum, and he is unlikely to command much more than that when he becomes a FA.
> ...


What's wrong w/ Kenyon Martin's character? How about his ripping in to Alonzo in that preseason practice, fighting w/ Magette, losing his head in the finals last year, pulling his threat shenanigans w/ regard to his contract in the offseason. 

All that said, I would still take him on my team. He plays hard and is still young enough to mature (ie not like Wallace). 

But to say that Kenyon Martin is mature and of good character and Kobe Bryant isn't is not particularly accurate, IMO.

And Eddie Griffin is rubbish. Plain and simple. 

- "If Kobe doesn't work out, you are stuck for 15+ million per year for 6-7 years."

I was just tossin Kobe out there for sake of conversation, and personally I agree that any given team only needs one SG/SF go to guy type of player, but the squad that signs him will not likely have a problem with him working out, nor would they have a problem finding a taker for what will be a pretty big contract. Make up your mind though... first it was character, then its money... next it'll be that he speaks italian.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>adamatic</b>!
> I was just tossin Kobe out there for sake of conversation, and personally I agree that any given team only needs one SG/SF go to guy type of player, but the squad that signs him will not likely have a problem with him working out, nor would they have a problem finding a taker for what will be a pretty big contract. Make up your mind though... first it was character, then its money... next it'll be that he speaks italian.


Gah, you can't people that speak Italian on your team. That's just wrong. :yes: 

One thing we should remember here is that even if Baker's salary is dropped, he's not going to put us under enough to sign a max contract.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>adamatic</b>!
> 
> And Eddie Griffin is rubbish. Plain and simple.


You may be right. If you go back to my post, you will see that he was just one guy on a long list.


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## adamatic (Jan 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> 
> Gah, you can't people that speak Italian on your team. That's just wrong. :yes:
> ...



Interesting.

Anyone find a site that is devoted to NBA Teams' salary cap positions? I've been looking around all over the place and have come up with nuthin..


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>adamatic</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm

HoopsHype is good and gives totals until the end of all the active contracts. However, they're not always the most accurate with some things. For example, Mike James has a 2 year deal, not a one year deal like HoopsHype reports.


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> 
> http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/boston.htm
> ...








I think realGM is better, just go to www.realgm.com and do a little searching.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Richie Rich</b>!
> I think realGM is better, just go to www.realgm.com and do a little searching.


For looking up salaries, realGM can't hold a candle to hoopshype. The trade checker is a nice too, but for just looking up salaries, its awful. HoopsHype shows salaries in dollars and the exact numbers for the duration of the contract. RealGM has a point system where the salary is the percentage of the salary cap, rather than an actual number. If you want to break out the calculator and figure it out yourself, use RealGM. If you just want to look up salaries, use HoopsHype.


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