# Krause: Young talent improving



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...bulls,1,7982997.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

*"In this job, sometimes you can get a little too cute or make a change that doesn't help you. Patience is a key. Once you assemble a group of talent, you have to be patient. We have that group."* (Jerry Krause)

*"What we see is the young people starting to come of age," Krause said. "Tyson [Chandler] has had a couple of great weeks. I'm proud of him. Eddy [Curry] has seen the light a bit, much the way Marcus saw it a couple of months ago.*

*"This is going to come together. It's a growth period. We like what we have."*

Talking about the two point guards:

*"That situation will iron itself out," Krause said. "They're both real good players, and both think they can play together. [Coach] Bill [Cartwright] explained to [Crawford] what he has to do to get to that level, which is really work this summer in the strength situation so he can defend [shooting guards]."*


*Cartwright said that reuniting Chandler and Curry in the starting lineup is a "definite possibility" by next week, a move made easier because a banged-up Donyell Marshall is struggling. The Bulls also have three straight home games next week. The team has played better at home and thus can buy young players some developmental minutes.*


*"Eddy's stamina is much better, and he's doing a better job defensively," Cartwright said. "It's all experience, being in those situations and recognizing how to react. There's a difference in reacting in one second and a second and a half.*


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## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

So the Bulls have shifted gears (again) and are projecting Crawford as a two guard...the way they did towards the end of last season. What are the odds Crawford will actually buy into that line of bull and spend the summer working at the Berto Center? Afterall, he didn't buy into it last summer, so why should he buy into it now?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> So the Bulls have shifted gears (again) and are projecting Crawford as a two guard...the way they did towards the end of last season. What are the odds Crawford will actually buy into that line of bull and spend the summer working at the Berto Center? Afterall, he didn't buy into it last summer, so why should he buy into it now?


He's the one that wanted to play with Jay, and he's the one that recently bought a house and doesn't want to leave the Chicago area.


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## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>gettinbranded</b>!
> 
> 
> He's the one that wanted to play with Jay, and he's the one that recently bought a house and doesn't want to leave the Chicago area.


GB,
While people do have a right to change their minds, I seem to recall Crawford being vehemently opposed to the concept when he and Williams were paired at the RMR. Crawford basically shut his own game down out there and he was so pi$$ed that he flew home on his own afterwards rather than with his teamates.

The fact that he didn't follow the Bulls strength program last summer would also indicate his reluctance to turn the PG job over to Williams and allow himself to be converted to a SG.

And if I recall, most of the positive quotes on the possibility of the two of them playing together have been coming from Williams.


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> So the Bulls have shifted gears (again) and are projecting Crawford as a two guard...the way they did towards the end of last season. What are the odds Crawford will actually buy into that line of bull and spend the summer working at the Berto Center? Afterall, he didn't buy into it last summer, so why should he buy into it now?


Dickie, did you ever stop to think that maybe part of why jamal wanted to be in Seattle was due to his sick grandmother who died at the beginning of the season? The same grandmother who basically raised him.

Let's judge the kid on what he does, not what he did for reasons we may not be all aware of especially since he did bulk up and worked hard to get back from his ACL injury.

Now in regards to the article, the question of getting stronger is for Jamal to be able to guard the opposing 2. The prior article regarding Jamal, said for him to occassionally play the 2.

In the Bulls offense the 1,2 & 3 are interchangable. Is Rose playing the 1 when he's initiating the offense, and Jay runs to the corner, or is Rose playing the 2 when he creates his own shot off the dribble or is Rose the 3 when he's guarding the opposing 3. 

With Jay and JC on the court, the offense may have either one being the PG, or jay being the primary PG, with JC getting the assignment as the 2 in man to man defense. The offense could be more like Snow/Iverson or Welsey/Davis or Nash/Van Exel or BJax/Bibby than a more traditional 1 & 2. 

JC is better at feeding the post from the top of the key becuase he can pass over his match-up, while JW is better to getting to spots on the floor with his penetration. Thus betweeen the two of them, there will be opportunities for both players to create from difference postions on the court for each other and for the young bigs.

With an offensive scheme not predicated on pure postion players, JC bulking up expands his role, it doesn't limit it. JC bulking up helps on the defensive end with such an alignment, though Jay too has to be better with his footwork. If JW can put on 10 lbs, this really eliminates Hassels minutes. Though Hassel will get what the non resigned Mayor would have got.

Now if only JC and JW could starting hitting some shots than this potentially could be an exciting combo, with hopefully a slightly larger 2 to rotate as the 3rd guard for match ups against the big star 2's in the East.


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## MyBallsStillHurt (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> Dickie, did you ever stop to think that maybe part of why jamal wanted to be in Seattle was due to his sick grandmother who died at the beginning of the season? The same grandmother who basically raised him.
> ...


Ztect -

When you're done with that bong, pass it down!

Dickie's right on the money - JC didn't go back to Seattle to be with his sick grandmother over the summer. She was feeling great back then - she began having breathing and heart problems during the fall - not summer - so your theory doesn't hold water.

The truth of the matter was JC was upset that the Bulls took JWill at No. 2 and so he didn't want to hang around Berto very much. When he was in town, he hung at Hoops the Gym. To think that he's going to accept working out at Berto all summer long is naive. He's not - as soon as the season ends, he's going back to Seattle and staying there for most of the offseason.

He's got to be traded - the sooner the better. :yes:


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## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MyBallsStillHurt</b>!
> 
> 
> Ztect -
> ...


I give credit to ztect for being incredibly loyal to Crawford through good times and bad. He's probably been his biggest supporter on this board.

But, ztect, my man, the handwriting is on the wall...while his best days are certainly ahead of him, they aren't going to be spent in Chicago. If he was viewed as a potentially special player by any one of the other 28 teams, chances are he'd have been traded by the deadline. The fact is, he's a redundancy...we've already got our PG in Williams and our SG in Rose. There's just no place for him to play on this team.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> 
> 
> GB,
> ...


You're really reaching on that one.

Since the season has started, both players have been warm toward the idea of playing togather.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

count me in as a crawford supporter as well. and you can discount the 'fact' that crawford doesn't like jwill or the 'fact' that only jwill has spoken up about wanting to play with jamal.

"It's not as if they don't get along, with Jay occasionally stopping by Jamal's new crib to hang out. "I would love it. Jay would love it,'' Crawford said. "We talked to coach Cartwright about it in training camp.''

it's from a mariotti article that ran in december. jamal and jay want to play togeather. i agree some of jamal's actions over the summer could have been motivated by jealousy and frustration. but just because articles about jamal's grandma's health didn't make it out until the fall doesn't mean her condition wasn't being monitored.

just my 2 cents.


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> 
> 
> I give credit to ztect for being incredibly loyal to Crawford through good times and bad. He's probably been his biggest supporter on this board.
> ...


Unfortunately, our point guard of the future hasn't establish ed himself, and that's why Krause is keeping JC around as insurance.
in case the one or two good games that JW has aren't just aberations. 

The fact is that the handwriting on the wall is written in pencil, and until JW demonstrates that he indeed can play at both ends of the court at this level, JK simply isn't going to trade away a player who may potentially be better than the one he chose to retain, who also may as Krause said come back and "haunt him".

JK viewing JC as special is why JC hasn't been traded. JK seemingly holds him at much higher value than the other 28 teams who JK won't allow to underpay for him.

For whatever reasons, your acerbic tone towards JC really comes off as almost vindicative and spiteful. What did JC do to you? Run over your cat?

Both JW & JC are really young. They'll both amek mistakes and both learn from their mistakes. JC will probably put in the effort at the Berto Center this summer. But, in truth, I don't expect JC's agent to make any effort to sign an extension w. the Bulls becuase of the what's transpired this season.

So eventually JC will be traded to get something for him, or he'll simply sign elsewhere as a RFA or FA.


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## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, our point guard of the future hasn't establish ed himself, and that's why Krause is keeping JC around as insurance.
> ...


Gee, I've never been accused of being vindictive or spiteful before...and as for my alleged "acerbic tone," I think that your unflappable devotion to Jamal may have left you just a tad oversensitive with a propensity towards gross exaggeration.

A quick question to you, ztect, if you don't mind: Why do you so frequently choose to couple your praise for Crawford with denigrating remarks about Williams? Can't you find a way to support Crawford based on his merit alone? Mudslinging may work in the political arena but its generally ineffective as a method of appraising athletic talent. I'll bet you won't read many scouting reports that say, "This guy's good 'cause that guy sucks." LOL.

Anyhow, I really do admire your loyalty. But I think Roman Modrowski put it rather succinctly when he said : "Williams is their guy. Crawford knows it. Williams knows it. Benny the Bull knows it." I think it's just a matter of time before ztect knows it too.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

I am a JC supporter, as well as a Williams supporter.........

Here's my crystal ball view, or maybe it's my magic 8 ball view:

After the FA period signings begin and Golden State, Seattle and Washington realize that Crawford is their best option, a trade will be made. In fact, we may find them willing to give up more than they would've now.

Crawford will have his chance to shine, and I think he will. He has talent, he has heart, just is a bit fragile mentally and physically.

Let's just hope Williams establishes himself as the real deal.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

I'm just looking forward to Jon and Ponch fulfilling the legacy of the unreaslied prophesy of backcourt 2000

Special shout out to JKidd and Penny


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...bulls,1,7982997.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines
> 
> *"In this job, sometimes you can get a little too cute or make a change that doesn't help you. Patience is a key. Once you assemble a group of talent, you have to be patient. We have that group."* (Jerry Krause)
> ...


yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 


You da man fatboy. Keep on the dog and pony show - we love it !!


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> 
> 
> Gee, I've never been accused of being vindictive or spiteful before...and as for my alleged "acerbic tone," I think that your unflappable devotion to Jamal may have left you just a tad oversensitive with a propensity towards gross exaggeration.


You're just completely oblivious off your own words. Must be nice.



> A quick question to you, ztect, if you don't mind: Why do you so frequently choose to couple your praise for Crawford with denigrating remarks about Williams? Can't you find a way to support Crawford based on his merit alone? Mudslinging may work in the political arena but its generally ineffective as a method of appraising athletic talent. I'll bet you won't read many scouting reports that say, "This guy's good 'cause that guy sucks." LOL.


No, my criticism of Williams is usually independent of JC.
Unlike you, I write primarily about their games not their supposed motivations. I don't "denigrate", that's more your modus operandi. Williams has some serious shortcoming in his game and in his physical stature. JC too has problems. Since they are competeing for the same job, it's hard not to compare the two. SOme of JC's strenghts are JW's weaknesses and vice versa.

Thus I'll leave all the animosity inspired vitriol to you.



> Anyhow, I really do admire your loyalty. But I think Roman Modrowski put it rather succinctly when he said : "Williams is their guy. Crawford knows it. Williams knows it. Benny the Bull knows it." I think it's just a matter of time before ztect knows it too.


I'm not disagreeing. The Bulls want JW desperately to live up to his hype, and be the player worthy of the 2nd pick. However, in prior articles, many in the Bulls management are wondering exactly what they got. Keeping JC around is a way to hedge one's bet, and that's exactly what I believe JK is doing and why JK hasn't traded him away for less than JK believes he'll eventually be worth.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*people make way too much out of the feelings*

williams and crawford have for each other ...and the intentions they supposedly have for playing together ...

who cares?

williams and Jc like each other so they say and they had a fight ,if the bulls record were reversed it would be a bump in the road like MJ wacking wil purdue or steve kerr in practice.

personally i am happy they are together right now this will build character both of them could stand to be a little tougher mentally.

the truth is both of the their strengths(shooting for JC ,running a team for williams) are looking like weaknesses right now which is always a troubling sign but hopefully its temporary and that they will continue to learn and grow


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> Dickie, did you ever stop to think that maybe part of why jamal wanted to be in Seattle was due to his sick grandmother who died at the beginning of the season? The same grandmother who basically raised him.
> ...


Good basketball post and I absolutely agree with you. I think it takes a little vision to see just how good Jamal will be when he adds some strength. And as far as the question of whether he will or won't he, I remember reading earlier in the season that Jamal PLANS on staying in Chicago over the summer and bulking up this year. I also read the other day that the Bulls orginization HAS a plan set up for Jamal to bulk up over the summer (why would they go out of their way if they plan on trading him?)

Still, the only thint that concerns me is Rose. I think Rose is better suited to the SG spot than the SF spot and Crawford probably won't be any happier being a back up sg than he is being a back up pg. And, Jalen at the 3 presents problems because he isn't a great defender or rebounder. What are your thoughts on this Z?


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## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> You're just completely oblivious off your own words.
> 
> No, my criticism of Williams is usually independent of JC.
> Unlike you, I write primarily about their games not their supposed motivations. I don't "denigrate", that's more your modus operandi. Thus I'll leave all the animosity inspired vitriol to you.


I really am trying to rise above it, but some people make it so damn hard to take the high road.

Sheesh...all I've done in this thread as far as you're concerned, ztect, is compliment you for your unwavering loyalty to and belief in JC, and in return you accuse me of being vindictive, spiteful, vitriolic, rancorous and inspired by animus. 

That really hurts, ztect.









@#$%&#@...oops, sorry...gotta stick to the high road. :grinning:

Have a nice day, ztect. Oh, and you too, Jamal.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

I hate to go off topic and talk about what the thread WAS about(insane amount of sarcasm meant here).



BUT:


If the Bulls are happy about the development of their players, could we see a Crawford/Williams duo starting? Crawford has to improve his defense to make it work. If that doesn't happen, I could see this happening:

If the Warriors soon realize that they wont be able to re-sign Arenas, we might see a Dunleavy for Crawford swap. Fillers added to make it work. It gives Chicago a outside shooter with good handles and smart play. Like Pippen was for the Bulls, minus the incredible defense.

Williams/Rose/Dunleavy/Chandler/Curry
Brunson/Mason/Robinson/Fizer/Baxter/Marshall

We need a backup Center, anything to make Blount and Bagaric NOT PLAY. Possibly trade Fizer for one?

It gives the Bulls a nice blend of shooters(Dunleavy, Mason Jr, Williams- he will figure it out) scorers in Rose, Williams. What we will still lack though is tough defense. Chandler has improved immensly. Williams and Dunleavy will be better next year. Hopefully Curry can show some good defense as well.

Just a thought.

Sorry I got off topic, you may resume your little arguement.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Still, the only thint that concerns me is Rose. I think Rose is better suited to the SG spot than the SF spot and Crawford probably won't be any happier being a back up sg than he is being a back up pg. And, Jalen at the 3 presents problems because he isn't a great defender or rebounder. What are your thoughts on this Z?


this is the problem I see too. More importantly, I think even the Bulls see Rose as a SG (I've heard them repeatedly refer to him as the SG and Trent (!) as the SF. Of course the distinction is mostly just a name, but I think a lot of it has to do with the roles they see for each player. I picture a Jay, Jamal, and Jalen lineup as getting a zillion points scored against it.


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## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

Seriously, here are some of the challenges Jamal will face as a SG:

Paul Pierce, Eddie Jones, Kerry Kittles, Allan Iverson, Latrell Sprewell, Allan Houston, Tracy McGrady, Jerry Stackhouse, Richard Hamilton, Reggie Miller, Michael Redd, Desmond Mason, David Wesley, Vince Carter.

JC will have to defend against these guys most of the time...and we're only talking about the Eastern Conference!

When you look at it this way, you can see that JC really has his work cut out for him if he's got any chance at all of making it as a starter quality two guard in the NBA. Not only does he have to get a lot stronger, he's got to retain all of his quickness as well.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Mike i think you may be right about the bulls and them viewing Rose as a SG which may be another reason they did not go through with the Eddie Jones deal. Which is another reason to believe JC and possibly our draft choice may go into a big SF to put alongside Rose ala Dunleavy,Battier,Turk i believe they want the 1,2,3 positions like this:


Williams,Mason
Rose,Hassell
Turkoglu,Robinson


Of course you can replace Turk with any big SF of your choice, i put him because i think he will be the cream of the available crop so to speak


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## MyBallsStillHurt (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> Seriously, here are some of the challenges Jamal will face as a SG:
> 
> Paul Pierce, Eddie Jones, Kerry Kittles, Allan Iverson, Latrell Sprewell, Allan Houston, Tracy McGrady, Jerry Stackhouse, Richard Hamilton, Reggie Miller, Michael Redd, Desmond Mason, David Wesley, Vince Carter.
> ...


Nicely put Dickie - :yes:

Ztect ... your serve! :uhoh:


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Mike i think you may be right about the bulls and them viewing Rose as a SG which may be another reason they did not go through with the Eddie Jones deal. Which is another reason to believe JC and possibly our draft choice may go into a big SF to put alongside Rose ala Dunleavy,Battier,Turk i believe they want the 1,2,3 positions like this:
> 
> 
> ...


Turkolu is another point forward. With jalen & Turk, JW would be running to corners and not handling the ball as much.

Neither Rose nor Turk are very compatible w/. JW's game.

If the Bulls would trade JC straight up, I see him going to Seattle for Radman, since he's a tall 3 spot up shooter, who is redundant with R. Lewis. This makes a lot of sense too,since Seattle moved both of their vet pts, and currently will have Ollie and Berry manning the point with Forte as the third stringer.

JC & Fizer & Bags for R. Lewis could also be interesting (I think these salaries are close) .

Getting Dunlady doesn't make much sense in spite of the position he plays because he's not a strong defender plus is another "development" player. Bulls would be much better off consolidating than trading potential for potential.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

Count me as a Crawford supporter. I continue to support him so vehemently because he's the underdog--- dogged by the media, dogged by the coaches, dogged by the fans (especially the ones on this board who seem to think Mason Jr. is somehow already a better player). 

You've never seen Mason player in the NBA, and already people are talking about moving Crawford because he's redundant with Mason in the mix. Whaaa? I never saw Mason shoot 40% from 3pt land when he was given the vote of confidence for a month (while on a bum knee, mind you.) I never saw Mason shoot about 54% from the field. 

Honestly though, I give up. I trust Krause to make the right decision and give Crawford a true, fighting chance. He's the underdog, and he'll win you over with grit and pure determination.

Til then, I guess JWill and his about 20% shooting in January will be king here.


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> Seriously, here are some of the challenges Jamal will face as a SG:
> 
> Paul Pierce, Eddie Jones, Kerry Kittles, Allan Iverson, Latrell Sprewell, Allan Houston, Tracy McGrady, Jerry Stackhouse, Richard Hamilton, Reggie Miller, Michael Redd, Desmond Mason, David Wesley, Vince Carter.
> ...


Unfortunately no one currently on the Bulls including Hassel and Rose can guard any of those players either, and on defensive switches where Hassel is guarding the 1, JW is simply a whipping boy for those listed 2's. .

Just as big a problem now and in the future are these players at the 1: Gary Payton, Sam Cassel, Baron Davis, Chauncey Billups, Eric Snow, Alvin Williams, Jason Kidd amongst others in the East.

JW can't defend these guys. All these taller two' shoot right over him. Many of the quicker 1's just run around him. 

Though again, you're stuck on position labels rather than match-ups. If JC can get Hassels minutes at the "2", and his minutes at the 1, then his total run could be 30 minutes. No article so far that I've read says that JC will be the starting 2. The first article was for him to "occassionally" play the 2, which would be a way to get him more run time. 

Against the 76ers, where he'd match up defensively against Snow (not Iverson) or Charlotte against Wesley or Detroit against a very lean Hamilton, and some other teams without overpowering 2's, the Bulls could match up. If the Bulls can add an Artest type 3, to match up against the Tmac's, VC, et cetera, then JC could guard the Gireciks and Mo Pete's. 

Again it's match ups not position labels.....though if there is one thing that BC doesn't do very well is match Bulls players on the court up with the opponents line-ups.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

People are acting as if Jc is small for a 2 guard ...he isn't he is avg. size the same size as Kerry kittles at 6'5 190 and the same size or bigger than half of the players he could be guarding at the 2 

latrell sprewell 6'5 190 or alan houston 6'6 200
david wesley 6'0 200 or baron davis 6'3 220
rip hamilton 6'6 190
reggie miller 6'7 190
gordan giricek 6'6 190
eddie jones 6'7 190
Vince carter 6'7 225 or peterson 6'7 218
paul pierce 6'7 235
micheal redd 6'5 200 or gary payton 6'4 190
kerry kittles 6'5 190
ricky davis 6'6 200
dion glover 6'5 210
jerry stachouse 6'6 200
eric snow 6'3 200

these are the starters in the east with the exception of pierce i dont see anyone with a big size advantage that posts up (carter is big but he's allergic to the paint when he isn't dunking)

and the east is much stronger than the west at 2 guard so why cant JC guard 2s for whatever stretch of time he is need to ? i feel better about him guarding shooting guards than i do about williams guarding 1s 

as ztect pointed out some of the pgs williams has to defend and in most cases cant switch off of due to the size of the players listed above of which in williams case the difference is significant


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> Getting Dunlady doesn't make much sense in spite of the position he plays because he's not a strong defender plus is another "development" player. Bulls would be much better off consolidating than trading potential for potential.


Hate to break it to you but Dunleavy will be a good defender in this league. Watch some Warriors games and you will see this guy making plays. He plays passing lanes well, gets steals and is an EXCELLENT help defender. This guy knows team defense.

He was first team all defense in the ACC last year, as the 3rd leading vote getter to only Juanny D and Chris Duhon. He averaged 2.3 spg and almost 1 bpg and too many charges to count.

I know this isn't a major point you are trying to make ztect, but I resent the reputation that white guys get as poor defenders in the league just because they are white, and therefore must be slow. Dunleavy, while not quick for the NBA, is sufficiently quick, and his long arms and sound technique make up for any lack of speed. But more importantly, team defense is every bit as important as matching up one on one, and Dunleavy really excels in this area.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

happygrinch, a blind man can see that JC can't yet match up with the vast majority of those guys listed. He might be LISTED at 190, but he's not even close to that weight and also not nearly as strong as the guys listed around the same weight. Not saying he won't be able to defend them in time, but he still needs to gain about 15-20 more lbs (my guess is he weighs closer to 180 right now) and about two years to really add strength.


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## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> Unfortunately no one currently on the Bulls including Hassel and Rose can guard any of those players either, and on defensive switches where Hassel is guarding the 1, JW is simply a whipping boy for those listed 2's. .
> 
> Just as big a problem now and in the future are these players at the 1: Gary Payton, Sam Cassel, Baron Davis, Chauncey Billups, Eric Snow, Alvin Williams, Jason Kidd amongst others in the East.
> ...


There you go again. The topic is currently about the challenges Crawford will face as a shooting guard and you immediately try to divert the issue into another out of context diatribe against Williams.

Why don't you give it a rest? Every damn time someone critiques Crawford you've got to jump into the fray with all kind of negative remarks about Williams. If you want to tear Williams a new one then just start a "Williams Sucks" thread and get it out of your system. But to rip on Williams everytime someone mentions Crawford's name is'nt making Crawford look any better. For Pete's sake, ztect, try to find another way to promote your boy without bringing Williams' name into it all the time.


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> 
> 
> There you go again. The topic is currently about the challenges Crawford will face as a shooting guard and you immediately try to divert the issue into another out of context diatribe against Williams.
> ...


The problem w. JC guarding the 2, and both being on the court simultaneously is that 2 weak dfenders would be on the court. JW would have problems with the 1's and JC w. the 2's

So the comparison is germain, is you fail to understand the relevance, that's your problem.


Both present different defensive liabilities. Both on the court together would be particularly hairy.

So get over your over protective zealousness, and put things into context.


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## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> The problem w. JC guarding the 2, and both being on the court simultaneously is that 2 weak dfenders would be on the court. JW would have problems with the 1's and JC w. the 2's
> ...


Hey, Zitect, thats some kind of left handed logic you're trying to apply. The Jamster's a third year bust. If Williams wasn't on the team Jammy'd still be a bust. He's loaded with so much upside that Krause couldn't give him away. And believe me he tried. You know what the Jamster's good buddy MJeff offered for him? _...A SECOND ROUND PICK!_ Even Krause couldn't swallow that hard.

You'll see how valuable Crawford is this summer when Krause uses him for cap filler in a trade.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Krause should have taken that second round pick.


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## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> Krause should have taken that second round pick.


I'm going to guess he was really tempted. Could have used it to help pay off the Bryce Drew trade...that _is_ better than nothing, isn't it?


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Hate to break it to you but Dunleavy will be a good defender in this league. Watch some Warriors games and you will see this guy making plays. He plays passing lanes well, gets steals and is an EXCELLENT help defender. This guy knows team defense.
> ...



he sure showed that quickness when Chris Wilcox whose offensive game is probably less than TC schooled him and again when he got schooled by the ultra quick jared Jeffries. Dunleavy will be an ok defender but good I wouldn't go that far. He wasnt the best defender on his own team Jones, was. Just more duke media hype liek JWill winning POY but no winniny POY in his own confrence.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

DaFuture, man you should provide a better argument that THIS...



> he sure showed that quickness when Chris Wilcox whose offensive game is probably less than TC schooled him and again when he got schooled by the ultra quick jared Jeffries. Dunleavy will be an ok defender but good I wouldn't go that far. He wasnt the best defender on his own team Jones, was. Just more duke media hype liek JWill winning POY but no winniny POY in his own confrence.


Wilcox schooled him??? Dunleavy was a SF guarding a PF, and Wilcox didn't do anything special, and anyway it is ONE game and ONE game is never good support for an argument on the overall assessment of a player.

As for Jeffries, you best be checking your stats on that one cause Jeffries didn't have the best game when Indiana won.

Man, I know you'll do anything to discredit a Duke player, but the fact is Dunleavy was recognized in the top conference last year as one of the premier defenders. Duhon and Juanny D are about as good of defenders as there are in the backcourt and they were the only ones recognized above Dunleavy. Not even Dahntay was a first teamer last year, and he received a hell of a lot more press as a premier defender than Dunleavy.

Dunleavy was a top notch defender in college, and while he may be a step slower in the NBA, his abilities haven't changed. Like I said, his technique is excellent, he has long arms and has a knack for making plays like steals and blocks, and truly excels at help defense. He also learned versatility on defense by switching between big guys and wing players last year.

He is doing well thus far on defense in the NBA, continuing to make plays. He still needs to get a bit stronger and will need to learn defense on an NBA level, but he is already a decent NBA defender. In a year or two, he will be considered a good to very good defender. Defense is about 25% athleticism and 75% know-how and nobody KNOWS defense better than Dunleavy.

Just take a look at his defensive mentor -- Battier. Here's a guy who lacks great athleticism, but makes plays based on know how. Why is it so hard to see that Dunleavy does it too? Actually, it probably is hard to see when you haven't even watched the guy.

And as for the Jwill comment, man that just shows how little you know. That selection makes perfect sense to anyone who follows college hoops. THE NPOY award goes to the best player in the country over the course of the whole season. The conf. POY award goes to the best player during the ACC season. Dixon was the best player on the best team in the ACC and had a better year overall than JWill during conference play. Both were very close overall last year, but for the whole season the scales tipped in favor of JW and for the conf season it tipped in favor of Juanny D.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> And as for the Jwill comment, man that just shows how little you know. That selection makes perfect sense to anyone who follows college hoops. THE NPOY award goes to the best player in the country over the course of the whole season. The conf. POY award goes to the best player during the ACC season. Dixon was the best player on the best team in the ACC and had a better year overall than JWill during conference play. Both were very close overall last year, but for the whole season the scales tipped in favor of JW and for the conf season it tipped in favor of Juanny D.


When did this justification become canon?


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## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

People can say what they want to about Dunleavy right now, but if he was a member of the Bulls he'd be in the starting lineup right now ahead of Robinson. And he'd be productive.

If the Bulls somehow manage to acquire Dunleavy this summer, I'd be in favor of seeing Krause take it one step further and replace Cartwright with Mike's dad.


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> DaFuture, man you should provide a better argument that THIS...
> 
> 
> ...



I am sorry I must have missed the part where Jwill lost about three games for his team while Juan was carrying his team to their first NCAA Championship. Juan should have won both and most non Duke-fans will tell you that. Hell I owuld have given it to Gooden before him.


How did I discredit Dunleavy, i said he would be a good defender. Not everything out of Duke is golden you know. Nobody knows defense better than Dunlady, OK you keep on thinking that. I have some tropical real estate on the south side of Chicago wanna buy it? I said he was schooled by Chris WIlcox and he was. Wilcox has no offensive game but had his best game of the season by far against Dunleavy. You are so Devil-Blue blind you cant even think straight. Dunleavy cant start on the Warriors so how is he gonna start over Rose. HMMM Guys cmon dont tell me you paid all that money for a Duke ed and this is what you got. J/K:laugh:


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> I am sorry I must have missed the part where Jwill lost about three games for his team while Juan was carrying his team to their first NCAA Championship. Juan should have won both and most non Duke-fans will tell you that. Hell I owuld have given it to Gooden before him.


When you lend yourself to hyperbole you only discredit yourself. Mock Jay's missed FT against Indiana (and ignore his made last second three) for all I care, it's not even relevant. NPOY is selected BEFORE the tournament, so his tournament performance and Juan's are irrelevant. Jay has some OUTSTANDING pre-ACC games and led Duke to the #1 ranking going into the tourney. He was the deserving winner, plain and simple. The votes weren't even close and he was the unanimous winner of all four major NPOY awards.




> How did I discredit Dunleavy, i said he would be a good defender.


Previously you wrote...



> Dunleavy will be an ok defender but good I wouldn't go that far.


Am I missing something or did you just completely contradict yourself?


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> 
> 
> You know what the Jamster's good buddy MJeff offered for him? _...A SECOND ROUND PICK!_


Article? I smell BS.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
> 
> 
> Article? I smell BS.


HJ gets around and knows what he's talking about. Take my word for it.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

I highly, highly doubt it. I get around too, but they call me a pimp not an insider  

If that deal was offered, so what? Layden offered a heisman winner and a PF for Gary Payton. Nobody ran around screamin Gary Payton was worthless in a trade.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
> 
> If that deal was offered, so what? Layden offered a heisman winner and a PF for Gary Payton. Nobody ran around screamin Gary Payton was worthless in a trade.


So you think someone's gonna turn around and offer Ray Allen for Crawford and cap filler?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey, Zitect, thats some kind of left handed logic you're trying to apply.


Actually, I agree with the logic he's using (admittedly though, I am left handed :grinning: ). The difference, though, is it seems to lead Ztect to the "JWill is the problem" conclusion and me to the "Crawford is the problem" solution.

Neither are particularly good defenders, and having both on court at once will be a liability in many situations. Having them both on court with Rose at the 3 will be a liability in almost all situations. Since I think Jamal is ultimately the least of these three guys, he's the first to go.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> So you think someone's gonna turn around and offer Ray Allen for Crawford and cap filler?


....

How do I respond to this? I use an example to show that GMs make bonehead trade offers relative to the value of a player, you claim someone's gonna offer Ray Allen for Jamal Crawford.

No I don't think someone will. But if they do, I'm ok with taking that trade.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
> Count me as a Crawford supporter. I continue to support him so vehemently because he's the underdog--- dogged by the media, dogged by the coaches, dogged by the fans (especially the ones on this board who seem to think Mason Jr. is somehow already a better player).
> 
> You've never seen Mason player in the NBA, and already people are talking about moving Crawford because he's redundant with Mason in the mix. Whaaa? I never saw Mason shoot 40% from 3pt land when he was given the vote of confidence for a month (while on a bum knee, mind you.) I never saw Mason shoot about 54% from the field.
> ...



100% :yes:


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> happygrinch, a blind man can see that JC can't yet match up with the vast majority of those guys listed. He might be LISTED at 190, but he's not even close to that weight and also not nearly as strong as the guys listed around the same weight.


jay is really 5'11, but he's listed as 6'2. JC can bulk up, jay will never grow taller.


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## Peter Vescey (Oct 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey, Zitect, thats some kind of left handed logic you're trying to apply. The Jamster's a third year bust. If Williams wasn't on the team Jammy'd still be a bust. He's loaded with so much upside that Krause couldn't give him away. And believe me he tried. You know what the Jamster's good buddy MJeff offered for him? _...A SECOND ROUND PICK!_ Even Krause couldn't swallow that hard.
> ...


HJ, you're always a scintillating read, but I haven't laughed this hard :laugh: since depression set in after our 'stand pat' trade deadline passed. Simply PRICELESS. 

Does Crawford know for a fact that Jordan offered a second rounder for him? Is he offended by it or flattered that Jordan still wants him!?


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey, Zitect, thats some kind of left handed logic you're trying to apply. The Jamster's a third year bust. If Williams wasn't on the team Jammy'd still be a bust. He's loaded with so much upside that Krause couldn't give him away. And believe me he tried. You know what the Jamster's good buddy MJeff offered for him? _...A SECOND ROUND PICK!_ Even Krause couldn't swallow that hard.
> ...



im sorry but thats incorrect. it was a #10 pick.


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## Call It Like I See It (Jan 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> If the Bulls somehow manage to acquire Dunleavy this summer, I'd be in favor of seeing Krause take it one step further and replace Cartwright with Mike's dad.


The comparison between Cartwright and Floyd is not much different IMO. Cartwright simply has loyalists here because he played for the Bulls championship teams while Floyd was Krause's fishin' buddy. If Cartwright lacked the championship pedigree, most posters on this board would want his head. In reality, Cartwright has failed at winning and he's failed at development. He's been every bit the underachiever our kids have been. Krause and Reinsdorf should get most of the blame though, because they chose two inexperienced head coaches when the situation called for someone with head coaching experience. I would welcome Dunleavy or Van Gundy. If we were going to go with an inexperienced 'head' coach, I'd have taken Nelson Jr. over Cartwright every day of the week. I'd love to add D Jr, but I'm not sure dad coaching son at this level would work though.


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## Peter Vescey (Oct 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
> I highly, highly doubt it. I get around too, but they call me a pimp not an insider
> 
> If that deal was offered, so what? Layden offered a heisman winner and a PF for Gary Payton. Nobody ran around screamin Gary Payton was worthless in a trade.


airety, you haven't been around long enough if you haven't learned to sit back and enjoy HJs posts. Some posters just take their game to a whole 'nother level. They provide inside info and insightful analysis. Think of HJ as one of the top 50 players, er posters of all time. This board is lucky to have him.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

hrhr has posted many a time about MJ offering up the #10 pick, this was the first time ive read hj post that mj offered a 2nd rounder. either hr was wrong then, or he's wrong now.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> jay is really 5'11, but he's listed as 6'2. JC can bulk up, jay will never grow taller.


Jay measured in officially at the pre-draft camp at 6'0 3/4. And I never said anything about Jamal not being able to bulk up... just that he can't match up against 2Gs yet because he's so slight.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> Jay measured in officially at the pre-draft camp at 6'0 3/4. And I never said anything about Jamal not being able to bulk up... just that he can't match up against 2Gs yet because he's so slight.


 well we both can agree on that


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## Call It Like I See It (Jan 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by airety!
> Count me as a Crawford supporter. I continue to support him so vehemently because he's the underdog--- dogged by the media, dogged by the coaches, dogged by the fans (especially the ones on this board who seem to think Mason Jr. is somehow already a better player).
> 
> You've never seen Mason player in the NBA, and already people are talking about moving Crawford because he's redundant with Mason in the mix. Whaaa? I never saw Mason shoot 40% from 3pt land when he was given the vote of confidence for a month (while on a bum knee, mind you.) I never saw Mason shoot about 54% from the field.
> ...





> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 100% :yes:


I know its late, but am I really reading this? Ripping on Williams when JamDrop going into tonights game was 1 for his last 20 (5%) and 4 for his last 39 (10%). You gotta be kidding me. Even by my math it says Williams shot 2-4x better! :laugh: 

I know, its everybody elses fault though. Poor Jammy. He'll be a stud when he gets traded. You wait. We'll see.

*Now I'll tell you something funny. The guy who hit the free throw at halftime the other day (1 for 1) won 10 grand while Jammy was 1 for 20 over 3 games and made 75 grand. *


LIFE IN THE NBA - ITS FANTASTIC !


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Call It Like I See It</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i dont really have anything against jay, but the constant hate against jamal really annoys me. many of you guys were jamal fans before we drafted williams


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## Peter Vescey (Oct 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> hrhr has posted many a time about MJ offering up the #10 pick, this was the first time ive read hj post that mj offered a 2nd rounder. either hr was wrong then, or he's wrong now.


I believe Jordan offered the #11 pick that turned out to be Jeffries at the last draft. Apparently Crawford has slipped out of the first round if Jordan will only offer a second rounder now.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Peter Vescey</b>!
> 
> 
> I believe Jordan offered the #11 pick that turned out to be Jeffries at the last draft. Apparently Crawford has slipped out of the first round if Jordan will only offer a second rounder now.


i wasnt aware that mj offered up the pick recently, i thought hrhr was talking about last years draft. was hrhr talking about mj offering up the 2nd round pick for this past trade deadline?


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## LuCane (Dec 9, 2002)

Thats hilarious... Jesus, truly hilarious how perception and personal opinion can dictate ones "reality."

"Jay Will is really 5 11"

HAHAHAHA

Besides him being measured BAREFOOT, at 6' 3/4",NBA heights go by shoes, where he is then 6 2.....

Of course though, then Mike Bibby is 5 10?

You would have traded him also right?

If JWill gets to run more pick and roll and two man game... We will see brilliance.


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## Peter Vescey (Oct 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> 
> i wasnt aware that mj offered up the pick recently, i thought hrhr was talking about last years draft. was hrhr talking about mj offering up the 2nd round pick for this past trade deadline?


Thats the way I interpreted what HJ was saying, Johnny. And given that, I think I'd hold onto Crawford for now too.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> hrhr has posted many a time about MJ offering up the #10 pick, this was the first time ive read hj post that mj offered a 2nd rounder. either hr was wrong then, or he's wrong now.


mebbe it is just a reflection on how much he thinks Jamal smells which is removed in how sexy he thought he was 7 months ago


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> 
> jay is really 5'11, but he's listed as 6'2. JC can bulk up, jay will never grow taller.


I saw a photo of Gator Jay standing next to the Earl of Boykins last time we played the Golden State Showers.

The Earl of Boykins has got a few inches on Gator Jay 

But I disagree with your assessment that Jay can't grow taller. I remember this Brady Bunch episode once where Bobby Brady put himself on a stretching rack to try and get taller

MJeff actually recounts the tale how he tried the same thing in one of his earlier videos after he recounts getting cut from his high school varsity team 

Althea needs to get Gator a pair of gravity boots me thinks


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

*ChiBull*

you are one to talk about hyperbole, didnt you say something like "Nobody knows more about Defense than Dunleavy" I did contradict myself, but I meant to say an ok defender and truth is about 40% of the NBA are ok defenders. I wasnt talking about Indiana (great shot he made but too bad nobody cares, they lost, he choked, when it mattered the most, nobody is gonna write in the records book that Duke lost but Jwill hit an incredible three and was fouled, to give the team a chance, everyone is just gonna remember he missed the ft to tie the game) . I wasnt even talking about the Indiana game, I was talking about FSU and UVA. Hmm


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Peter Vescey</b>!
> 
> 
> I believe Jordan offered the #11 pick that turned out to be Jeffries at the last draft. Apparently Crawford has slipped out of the first round if Jordan will only offer a second rounder now.
> ...


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## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Peter Vescey</b>!
> 
> 
> HJ, you're always a scintillating read, but I haven't laughed this hard :laugh: since depression set in after our 'stand pat' trade deadline passed. Simply PRICELESS.
> ...


JC had been telling people a year ago that Jordan had assured him he'd go after him hard when he became a free agent. But Jordan has been known to blow into a lot of players' ears during his summer sessions at Hoops while oddly enough, the league has been willing to look the other way.

The second round pick was a recent offering. And it was one of the very few that the Bulls received at all for Crawford. Why did Jordan, I'm sorry, er, Washington make such an insulting offer? There could be a number of reasons including but not limited to the possibility that Jordan was trying to bust Krause's stones once again. Or he could have viewed it as a buyer's starting point and been willing to go up from there...problem is, Krause wouldn't take the bait.

Krause has been engaged in a futile attempt to sell Crawford as a point guard but nobody's buying it. It's not a question of skills. He's got everything you could want in a point guard in terms of talent and physical gifts. It's what's in his head, the decisions he makes on the floor that turn people off. Over and over again I hear that he's viewed as a player who shoots too much for a point guard. And lets face it. As fans who have seen him play alot, there's some truth to those assessments and evaluations. 

Crawford will go through stretches where he sets up his teamates nicely. Afterall, he's a very gifted player with outstanding court vision and passing skills. But those stretches come much too infrequently compared to the number of times he'll stop thinking about setting up his mates and try to shake himself loose for a long range jumper.

And that brings me to another aspect of his game that disinterests most other teams. We all know about offensive minded point guards like Nash and Davis, to name just a few. Although those guys may take as many shots as anyone else on their teams, its how and when they do it that's important. Guys like them are incredibly effective penetrators who have an attack dog mentality when it comes to breaking down a defense. They are extremely adept at attacking the rim and either finishing with a shot of their own or laying the ball off to a teamate for an easier shot. They're also highly compitent outside shooters, but most of their perimeter offense comes within the context of their offensive sets, in other words, when they're on the receiving end of a pass during ball rotation and find themselves open for a shot that they can take in rhythem.

Crawford is not a penetrator with an assault mentality. While other offensive minded point guards will execute their moves on the way to the basket, Crawford's arsenal of moves are mostly designed to shake himself free for a long range jumper. Who needs a point guard who shakes and bakes and usually ends up settling for a twenty foot jump shot with a hand in his face? And I've also noticed an increasing tendency on his part to commit to taking a shot himself if he finds the ball in his hands with ten seconds or less left on the shot clock. That indicates that he might tend to give up too soon on finding an open man for fear of the clock running out and not getting a shot off at all. A point guard can't give up on running the offense that quickly and resort to taking a low percentage shot under pressure. Basically what it comes down to is the fact that taking 15 or 16 shots per game isn't an issue so much as what kind of shots they are and when they're taken.

One final thing about Jamal that just seems to bother me personally. Here's a kid that usually has a distinct height advantage on everyone that tries to guard him. And believe me, he is a very long 6'5" player with a tremendous wingspan and very broad shoulders. Forget about the weight and strength issues for a moment and ask yourself why this incredibly long armed, 6'5" point guard never posts up his defender or takes him anywhere near the basket where he can make the best use of his physical advantage. I know that zones can sometimes make it dificult to post up down low, but when I see players last night like Armstrong and Vaughn keep him comfortably on the outside of the 3 point line all game long I just have to shake my head. The Bulls run post ups for Trent Hassell, so I know there are iso plays in the books for wing players. Crawford to my mind has never taken advantage of his height offensively. He might as well be no taller than Jason Terry or Nick Van Exel for the kind of shots he ends up launching.

Whew, I haven't run on like this for a long time. Sorry if I rubbed any of the Crawford backers out there the wrong way. I'm really not interested in getting into the middle of a "who's the better point guard for the Bulls" free for all. This is nothing more than what I know has been said about Crawford and what I personally feel about his approach to the game. Take it for whatever you feel its worth. Or you can discount what I've said completely. But please don't try to engage me in some kind of pi$$ing contest over who should be playing the point in Chicago. Crawford's got all the tools. He just doesn't know when or how to use them, and after three years it's time to move on.


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## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> HJ is just a wannabe insider. Unlike that Tech9 kid, I can't recall HJ ever having a scoop on anything.


Huh? What's your problem? Do I know you? Chill out, bucko.


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> 
> 
> Huh? What's your problem? Do I know you? Chill out, bucko.


You're posting info about what was offerrred for JC as if it's definitive, which hasn't been reported any where else to bolster your biases.

Hitherto you've never posted any legitimate beforehand knowledge or true inside knowledge so stop pretending that you have inside info that you obviously don't and never have.

With that aside, please don't misunderstand that I think you've expressed many interesting comments and opinions that I usually agree with in part or in whole.

btw/fwiw, the majority of JC's shots are uncontested clean looks....though I agree that many aren't within the flow of the offense. However, if any player forces shots with hands in his face, it's Rose. Rose again last night heaved some outside shots with no Bulls under the basket in position to rebound. Rose also has to look for players to pass to out of double teams.

I agree about the post up game, but TC doesn't have one either. Both are young and can add this to their repetoire


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## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> You're posting info about what was offerrred for JC as if it's definitive, which hasn't been reported any where else to bolster your biases.
> 
> Hitherto you've never posted any legitimate beforehand knowledge or true inside knowledge so stop pretending that you have inside info that you obviously don't and never have.


Sounds like penis envy to me. Do me a favor and go bother someone else. Christ, where's a mod when you need one?


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> 
> 
> Sounds like penis envy to me. Do me a favor and go bother someone else. Christ, where's a mod when you need one?


Sorry HJ, please definitively state where and how and from whom you got your information.

Anyone can make up news to back up their points. But when you have to provide legitimate back-up that's a different story.

My asking for back-up is germaine, and shouldn't be something moderators feel a need to censor.

Though your latest attempts at obfuscation should be.


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## MyBallsStillHurt (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry HJ, please definitively state where and how and from whom you got your information.
> ...


Ztect -

With every letter you type to attack HJHJR, you expose youself as the wannabe you accuse him of being -- you have no idea who HJHJR is - I do - and he has had and continues to have INSIDE INFO - You're just not paying attention. :no: :mrt:


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

No doubt. HJ knows what's going on. Question his _opinions_ about basketball if you want, but implying he's a liar who's making stuff up to support a bias is not only a low blow, it's incorrect.


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## Spartacus Triumvirate (Jan 30, 2003)

You hit the nail on the head MBSH. I know from RealGM days HJs family was connected with JK. HJ should be one of the most respected posters here.

Isn't ztech the one that ragged that guy with the inside scoop over on realgm (the mason scoop?) and had to leave both boards in shame for some extended period of time after the guy was right? 

It ought to be simple. Crawford is a #8 pick who has had 3 years to impress us. He has not. Don't whine about Floyd, injury or anything else. Thats Crawford's problem. Maybe he shouldn't have fought with Floyd. Maybe he shouldn't have been playing at Hoops. The guy has been a wimp most of his career. Time to move on. Williams is the #2 pick in his first year. He is the future. If in 2 more years he's no better than Crawford (or I guess I'm saying no better than he is now), he'll be done too. I don't give a crap who plays the point. I just expect whoever does to start showing the promise I'm seeing out of Chandler.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Spartacus Triumvirate</b>!
> You hit the nail on the head MBSH. I know from RealGM days HJs family was connected with JK. HJ should be one of the most respected posters here.
> 
> Isn't ztech the one that ragged that guy with the inside scoop over on realgm (the mason scoop?) and had to leave both boards in shame for some extended period of time after the guy was right?
> ...


Jay and Jamal are both 21. Jamal was injured for a season. Don't wanna here it? Too bad. Sitting on the bench for a season doesn't give you much experience in playing. You have to play to get that. So that season was a wash. His rookie year, he barely some. He didn't have a season to improve himself. Basically, he has about 2 years of experience. 

I dont care if he is a 3rd year player or not, he only has 2 years worth of playing experience. This is his 2nd year of that. Expecting great results is hard. Chandler and Curry are in their 2nd year of experience as well. 

I know its not perfect, but you have to remember Jamal has little experience. Should he have stayed in college? No. He was drafted 8th. He wouldnt have improved draft status wise by staying in college IMO. From a pure business prespective, it was a smart move. From a talent prespective, he could have used a few more years in college.

Yes, we drafted Jay 2nd. Yes, he is our future PG. No, you don't draft a PG with the 2nd overall pick to be your backup. But I didn't think you did that with the 8th overall pick either. But Crawford has a shot this summer. He needs to bulk up and work immensly hard at his defense to show that he can handle the NBA 2's. Kerry Kittles does a decent job, and both Crawford and Kittles have similar body types. Crawford can become a good defender, should he choose to work at it.

Also- You said Jay would be done in 2 years if he hasn't improved much. What about Curry? Will he be done next year if he still is struggling? Heaven forbid we give these guys a few years to mature and gain experience.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> Jay and Jamal are both 21. Jamal was injured for a season. Don't wanna here it? Too bad. Sitting on the bench for a season doesn't give you much experience in playing. You have to play to get that. So that season was a wash. His rookie year, he barely some. He didn't have a season to improve himself. Basically, he has about 2 years of experience.
> 
> ...


I love it when posters actually make sense. It cracks me up when people get on this "what has he done for me lately" trip. People just don't seem to want to realise, or they are completely oblivious to the fact that it takes TIME for a player to develop in the NBA. Sure, some guys start off quicker than other.s Sure, there are some players like Amare and Yao that tear it up from day 1. But there are plenty of other players that simply WEREN'T worldbeaters in their rookie year, their sophomore year, and in some cases even their junior year! And it's easyto say "lets ignore the fact that he had an ACL injury that sidelined him a season, lets forget that he wasn't given much run under Floyd, lets forget that he came out of college as a freshman." Why exactly are we forgetting these things again? 

Thats one reason why I am glad that Krause is the GM and not most of the posters here. Krause fully realisd when he drafted Jamal that he wouldn't be a worldbeater from day 1. He knew he was a developmental player. Krause also realises that Jamal is far too valuable to deal for scraps at this stage of his development. I enjoy reading HJHR's posts as much as the next guy, I don't know a thing about his credibility though I'll admit. It seems difficult to believe that MJ would offer a second rounder for Jamal when he offered the #11 pick at the draft and Jamal has only improved since then. Plus, as I understand it, teh Bulls have fielded a great many offers for Crawford, some of them being pretty good. But Krause isn't pulling the trigger because he realises the potential that Crawford has....Kudos to Krause. I bet he is sitting in his office reading these posts and getting a real chuckle out of what the armchair GM's think.


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## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

MBSH, Mike, Spartacus...thanks very much for the show of support. As you guys know, if you're really connected you don't brag about it. And you certainly don't expose your sources of information. 

Sorry I haven't had time to post more often, but things have been very busy around the old homestead. Barely been to any Bulls games either. I'll try harder to get back in the mix in the future. Again, thanks for the kind words.


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## Spartacus Triumvirate (Jan 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> I love it when posters actually make sense. It cracks me up when people get on this "what has he done for me lately" trip. People just don't seem to want to realise, or they are completely oblivious to the fact that it takes TIME for a player to develop in the NBA. Sure, some guys start off quicker than other.s Sure, there are some players like Amare and Yao that tear it up from day 1. But there are plenty of other players that simply WEREN'T worldbeaters in their rookie year, their sophomore year, and in some cases even their junior year! And it's easyto say "lets ignore the fact that he had an ACL injury that sidelined him a season, lets forget that he wasn't given much run under Floyd, lets forget that he came out of college as a freshman." Why exactly are we forgetting these things again?
> ...


Are you sure what you really love isn't merely somebody who espouses your opinion?

What have you done for me lately? Now theres a joke if I ever heard one. So three years can now be described as lately, eh? I love it when posters put words in other posters posts. 

Lets get this very clear. WE DON'T NEED TO DEVELOP TWO YOUNG PGs. THAT IS MY OPINION. 

I personally think one of these two should be dealt. If thats Williams so be it. He easily has more trade value (which should also make it more obvious what the league thinks of Williams vs. Crawford). But as far as the Bulls are concerned, its quite apparent the analogy that best fits Williams is the square peg into the round hole. We draft a guy with a race engine and then we use him for the Sunday spin. Crawford probably fits what we want to do more than Williams, but lets be real. The Bulls have COMPLETELY BOTCHED this situation. I don't think Crawford would make a good two either, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. However, we now have the Bulls mis-handling of Crawford along with Crawfords immature cooperation in the whole situation that makes me wonder if the guy will ever bloom in this city.

I'm not about 1 player versus the other. If Bagarich rose up and started playing like.......well, like he was alive - I'd be in his corner as well. I'm a Bulls fan and I really don't give a horses hind quarter who gets us back to the dance so long as we get there.

And if you think Krause spends his time reading this board, then God help us all.


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Isn't ztech the one that ragged that guy with the inside scoop over on realgm (the mason scoop?) and had to leave both boards in shame for some extended period of time after the guy was right?


Sorry. Spartacus, I did express scepticism toward the kid Tech9, but later apologized to him when his info proved to be correct. There was no need for me to leave any board at that time. 

As events have transpired, Tech9 on numerous occassions has demonstrated that his source is valid. What he "scooped" later transpired. WHat he stated was measurable and tangible.

I respect many of HJ's thoughts, but frankly in two years I can never once remember any similar scenario where HJ alone presaged an event that later transpired, and now he offers as facts items that never can be validated or even put in any context in which they happened if they happened. There is absolutely no way to know what he wrote was true or not.

Moreover HJ attaching the words "bust" to JC despite JC's decent play as a starter and belaboring an argument that JC has had 3 yrs to play (though he's played in less than 2 yrs of games alrgely due to a major injury)) really made his purportred info seem only like a way to denigrate JC by stating that JC's value had dropped so precipitously for a 22 yr old player. Whereas major media still has been discussing trades that if Areanas leaves GS, GS might be interested in moving Dunlady for JC. Somehow, I'd have to believe major media has more access than HJ.

Frankly, I really don't know who any of you are. If people are going to claim be close to sources of info , and don't want to name those sources, they should at least have preveiously demonstrated that any prior purported info is valid. HJ has written many sage comments, but I have never read him scoop anything.

Does HJ get his haircut at the same barber as Krause or something? Is HJ Krause's drinking buddy. Is HJ's daughter dating the son of HJ's secretary? 

All I'm asking for is some credentials. Writing on a message boards really doesn't legitimize anything, no matter how long one has been writing.


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Spartacus Triumvirate</b>!
> 
> 
> I personally think one of these two should be dealt. If thats Williams so be it. He easily has more trade value (which should also make it more obvious what the league thinks of Williams vs. Crawford). But as far as the Bulls are concerned, its quite apparent the analogy that best fits Williams is the square peg into the round hole. We draft a guy with a race engine and then we use him for the Sunday spin. Crawford probably fits what we want to do more than Williams, but lets be real. The Bulls have COMPLETELY BOTCHED this situation. I don't think Crawford would make a good two either, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. However, we now have the Bulls mis-handling of Crawford along with Crawfords immature cooperation in the whole situation that makes me wonder if the guy will ever bloom in this city.


This a fair and good assessment of the situation.

Rose being on the squad with a big contract compunds the problem since JW needs the ball in his hands to be most effective. So on top of your analysis, I'd add that the roster with Rose is somewhat contrary to JW.


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## Potatoe (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> Whereas major media still has been discussing trades that if Areanas leaves GS, GS might be interested in moving Dunlady for JC. Somehow, I'd have to believe major media has more access than HJ.



LOL,

If GS trades Mike Dunleavy straight up for Jamal Crawford they deserve to be in last place for the next decade.

That trade will NEVER happen, there is no way Jamal has anywhere near that kind of trade value, not even close really.


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