# Jamaal Tinsley Vs. Gary Payton-First Two Years



## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

*Jamaal Tinsley* 
*Position: G 
Born: 02/28/78 
Height: 6-3 / 1,91 
Weight: 195 lbs. / 88,5 kg. 
College: Iowa State '01* 
<img src="http://www.nba.com/media/act_jamaal_tinsley.jpg">
*Career Highlights* 
*The team’s leader in assists for the second straight season, he was sixth in the NBA with an average of 7.5 assists per game in 2002-03.*

*Ranked 13th in the NBA with an assists-to-turnover ratio of 2.85-to-1.*

*Registered the 1,000th assist of his career vs. Boston, 3/19/03.*

*Scored a season-high 21 points at Milwaukee, 12/11/02, matching that with 21 points at Atlanta, 2/16/03.*

*Ranked 10th in the NBA with an average of 1.71 steals per game. *

*A member of the Rookie team in the “got milk?” Rookie Challenge last season, he played for the Sophomore team this season and once again led his team in assists with 11. *

*Season Averages* 
*01-02* 30.5 mpg, 9.4 ppg, 8.1 apg, 3.70 rpg, 1.73 spg, 3.38 topg, a/to ratio:2.39/1

FG%-.380 FT%-.704 3PT%-.240

*02-03* 30.6 mpg, 7.8 ppg, 7.5 apg, 3.6 rpg, 1.71 spg, 2.63 topg, a/to ratio:2.85/1

FG%-.396 FT%-.714 3PT%-.277

*Rankings* 
*Ranks #6 in the NBA in Assists Per Game(7.5) 
Ranks #10 in the NBA in Steals Per Game(1.71) 
Ranks #8 in the NBA in Assists(548.0) 
Ranks #18 in the NBA in Steals(125.0) 
Ranks #13 in the NBA in Assists Per Turnover(2.85) 
Ranks #4 in the NBA in Assists Per 48 Minutes(11.8) 
Ranks #10 in the NBA in Steals Per 48 Minutes(2.68) 
Ranks #19 in the NBA in Turnovers Per Game(2.63) 
Ranks #15 in the NBA in Turnovers Per 48 Minutes(4.12)*

*Gary Payton* 
*Position: G 
Born: 07/23/68 
Height: 6-4 / 1,93 
Weight: 180 lbs. / 81,6 kg. 
College: Oregon State '90*








*Early Career Highlights* 

*Named to the NBA All-Rookie Second Team in 1990-91 after averaging 7.2 ppg and 6.4 apg*

*Early Season Averages* 

*90-91* 27.4 mpg, 7.2 ppg, 6.4 apg, 3.0 rpg, 2.01 spg, 2.20 topg, a/to ratio:2.9/1

FG%-.450 FT%-.711 3PT%-.077

*91-92* 31.5 mpg, 9.4 ppg, 6.2 apg, 3.6 rpg, 1.81 spg, 2.15 topg, a/to ratio:2.88/1

FG%-.451 FT%-.669 3PT%-.130




If you look at all the stats closely, you will notice that GP struggled with his shot in his early career as has Tinsley. I expect a turnaround this year from Tinsley, better shooting and just to make an overall bigger impact on the team. GP did better in his third year, but it took him a while to develop his 3 PT stroke. I'm not saying Tinsley will be better I'm just saying that if you are viewing him as a bust you are crazy, he has only played in the league two years and has one of the best assists to turnover ratios and is a league leader in assists, he also put up two triple doubles in his rookie season, last season he had a problem with a death in his family so don't give me any junk about him being inconsistent this year.


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## Jason The Terryble (Jul 22, 2003)

Good post.
Their stats are VERY similar after their first 2 years.
Can Tinsley improve his game the same way Payton did? Hopefully.
Also, why do people say Tinsley is a poor defender? The guys been top-10 in steals each of his seasons in he NBA. That seems pretty damn good to me.


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

Steals do not = great defense. Iverson is 1st in the league in steals every year, but he is not a great defensive player because he can get posted up. Tinsley is not a great defender because he is slow footed and gets beat off of the dribble a lot.

As for the Tinsley GP comparison, I like it. Except for the fact that GP was a great defender in his prime.


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TLR</b>!
> Steals do not = great defense. Iverson is 1st in the league in steals every year, but he is not a great defensive player because he can get posted up. Tinsley is not a great defender because he is slow footed and gets beat off of the dribble a lot.
> 
> As for the Tinsley GP comparison, I like it. Except for the fact that GP was a great defender in his prime.


K, would Tinsley be consider a good off the ball defender then? Is he good at knowing when to get in the passing lanes?


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## lakerking8 (Jul 5, 2003)

Tinsley needs to improve his D to become a great point guard like Gary Payton.


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lakerking8</b>!
> Tinsley needs to improve his D to become a great point guard like Gary Payton.


:yes:

When GP first came in the league he was an excellent defender (both on his man and getting steals) and solid at distributing the ball. The scoring came after his 3-4 season. 

I don't think Tinsley will be the scorer Payton is/was. Payton has always shot at a high FG% (although not from beyond the arc). He was shooting .450% in his first years in the league, and he boosted it to .509% in his prime...Tinsley is shooting .380% and .396% last season.

I don't know if he will reach the same level as GP (not many do, he's a HOF'er.), he could be a solid 14ppg, 4rpg, 8.5apg PG...


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Scinos</b>!
> 
> 
> :yes:
> ...


I don't think Tinsley will be better or as good as GP, I'm just trying to make a point that he won't be a bust like alot of people think.


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## Xavier8 (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TicN9neZ8</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think Tinsley will be better or as good as GP, I'm just trying to make a point that he won't be a bust like alot of people think.


Yea, there is no way he can be as good as Payton, but he definetly wont be a bust.


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Xavier8</b>!
> 
> 
> Yea, there is no way he can be as good as Payton, but he definetly wont be a bust.


true, maybe I should of compared him to Mark Jackson instead.


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## Xavier8 (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TicN9neZ8</b>!
> 
> 
> true, maybe I should of compared him to Mark Jackson instead.


That is who I have always compared him too.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

Mark Jackson is who everybody compares hime to. It's a good comparison but Tinsley is a little flashier.


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> Mark Jackson is who everybody compares hime to. It's a good comparison but Tinsley is a little flashier.


yep he is very flashy, I remember in the rookie game he would shake everybody, but then he would brick his shot.


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

Wow...Mark Jackson was a BALLER his rookie season...

13.6ppg, 4.8rpg, 10.6apg, 2.5spg  :jawdrop:


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Scinos</b>!
> Wow...Mark Jackson was a BALLER his rookie season...
> 
> 13.6ppg, 4.8rpg, 10.6apg, 2.5spg  :jawdrop:


holy crap! I didn't realize Mark Jackson started out that good.


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## Xavier8 (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Scinos</b>!
> Wow...Mark Jackson was a BALLER his rookie season...
> 
> 13.6ppg, 4.8rpg, 10.6apg, 2.5spg  :jawdrop:


Thats truely amazing for a rookie.


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Xavier8</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats truely amazing for a rookie.


yes that is very amazing for a rookie, does anyone know if he got rookie of the year?


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TicN9neZ8</b>!
> 
> 
> yes that is very amazing for a rookie, does anyone know if he got rookie of the year?


Yeah, he was rookie of the year. His 868 assists were a single season record for NBA rookies....

He's strange though, he never really improved from that mark. His rookie season was probably his best season as a pro...


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## Xavier8 (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Scinos</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, he was rookie of the year. His 868 assists were a single season record for NBA rookies....
> ...


That is rare for a player not to get way better in there next 3 or 4 years.


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Xavier8</b>!
> That is rare for a player not to get way better in there next 3 or 4 years.


Yeah..he kind of anti-progressed...

year 1: 13.6ppg, 4.8rpg, 10.6apg
year 2: 16.9ppg, 4.7rpg, 8.6apg
year 3: 9.9ppg, 3.9rpg, 7.4apg
year 4: 8.8ppg, 2.7rpg, 6.3apg
year 5: 11.3ppg, 3.8rpg, 8.6apg

The rookie season was his best...


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## Like A Breath (Jun 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Scinos</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah..he kind of anti-progressed...
> ...


I don't want to be nit-picky but there is a word for anti-progressed, and it's "regressed."

I don't know if Tinsley has the killer instinct that Gary has. Payton was national player of the year in college and was already a proven leader. If Tinsley can be a leader, which he hasn't become, then he can start to approach Payton's greatness.

In response to an earlier post: Iverson RARELY gets posted up. He guards the opposing point guards, and there's been no post-up point guards since Mark Jackson and Penny.


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Like A Breath</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't want to be nit-picky but there is a word for anti-progressed, and it's "regressed."


Yeah...that's the word I was looking for


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

that is really weird for someones best season to be their rookie year.


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TicN9neZ8</b>!
> 
> 
> K, would Tinsley be consider a good off the ball defender then? Is he good at knowing when to get in the passing lanes?



Yeah he has good quick hand eye coordination. Kinda like Iverson.


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Like A Breath</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> In response to an earlier post: Iverson RARELY gets posted up. He guards the opposing point guards, and there's been no post-up point guards since Mark Jackson and Penny.



I've seen it happen before in a game where he gets stuck on some bum like Walter McCarty or someone like that on D who will dunk on him. He doesn't nescesarily get posted up because Philly's D has always been predecated on help. Especially with Mutombo. And even without Dikembe they would camp Derrick Coleman out in the lane. 

Also Baron Davis is a good post up point guard. He'll post up the opposing point guard, then wait for the double team and dish it for the assist.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Tinsley is _under_rated.

For a late first round pick, his numbers do really compare to some of the best in the beginning of their careers.

What I like about Tinsley, is he's a pass first PG, and not one of those PG-SG hybrids, which have to adjust to being a PG, and always shoot first (Francis, Arenas, Terry).


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## Jermaniac Fan (Jul 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lakerking8</b>!
> Tinsley needs to improve his D to become a great point guard like Gary Payton.


This is what I'am going to say too!


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

> that is really weird for someones best season to be their rookie year.



Could be the case for Tinsley. I would at least say that the first half of his rookie year will definitely be as good as he gets.


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>crimedog</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Could be the case for Tinsley. I would at least say that the first half of his rookie year will definitely be as good as he gets.


Hopefully not, hopefully he keeps getting better.


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

Why would that guy not think he can get better? He could learn how to shoot and also join a program that makes him quicker on his feet which would improve his defense. A player can always improve no matter what point in his career.


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

> Why would that guy not think he can get better? He could learn how to shoot and also join a program that makes him quicker on his feet which would improve his defense. A player can always improve no matter what point in his career.



I do think Tinsley can get better, but the thread was discussing mark jackson having his best year as a rookie and I pointed out that at this point that is still a possibility for Tinsley. With the start he had to his career, he has definitely had an inverted improvement curve. That's not to say he won't turn around and improve now that he has stabilized and gotten used to the nba.


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>crimedog</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I do think Tinsley can get better, but the thread was discussing mark jackson having his best year as a rookie and I pointed out that at this point that is still a possibility for Tinsley. With the start he had to his career, he has definitely had an inverted improvement curve. That's not to say he won't turn around and improve now that he has stabilized and gotten used to the nba.


I think Tins getting better all depends on how bad he wants it, if he gets a good work ethic he could go far.


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

I think Tinsley's best season will be 16 and 12.


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

I don't.


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

Thanks for that post of the year.


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TLR</b>!
> Thanks for that post of the year.


lol, the elaboration of that post was incredible, well seriously I think Tins could put up near 16 and 12 at his max potential.


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## Xavier8 (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TLR</b>!
> Thanks for that post of the year.


LMAO! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

> Thanks for that post of the year


I guess I disagreed enough that I didn't feel I needed to elaborate. Tinsley just isn't a good enough shooter to average 16 points a game on a good team. I guess he could do it on a bad team where he's the first scoring option (read: very bad team), but I don't think he is the type of player that should average that many points. While he improved his shooting slightly this year, his scoring went down. 

As far as the assists go...Jason Kidd has never even averaged 11, so I don't know why tinsley is all of a sudden going to average 12.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TicN9neZ8</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think Tinsley will be better or as good as GP, I'm just trying to make a point that he won't be a bust like alot of people think.


I don't think anyone can call Tinsley a bust now. He was #27 and is around 8-10ppg and 7-8 apg now. You can't call that a bust even if he is slow and bad at D.



> well seriously I think Tins could put up near 16 and 12 at his max potential.


Same.




> I think Tins getting better all depends on how bad he wants it, if he gets a good work ethic he could go far.


agreed





> Tinsley is underrated.For a late first round pick, his numbers do really compare to some of the best in the beginning of their careers.
> 
> What I like about Tinsley, is he's a pass first PG, and not one of those PG-SG hybrids, which have to adjust to being a PG, and always shoot first (Francis, Arenas, Terry).


Good post i think the same.


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>crimedog</b>!
> 
> 
> I guess I disagreed enough that I didn't feel I needed to elaborate. Tinsley just isn't a good enough shooter to average 16 points a game on a good team. I guess he could do it on a bad team where he's the first scoring option (read: very bad team), but I don't think he is the type of player that should average that many points. While he improved his shooting slightly this year, his scoring went down.
> ...



People can learn how to shoot. Look at Gary Payton. He maximized his offensive potential and learned how to shoot. Not everyone does but Tinsley could.


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

I thought I would bump this thread for fun, see what the new guys have to say about it.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

I can definately see Tinsley getting 16 PPG (not on the Pacers though) with his 3 pt shot.


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