# MVP Discussion



## Blue

Um, I wasn't gonna say anything but after tonight I think Dwight Howard needs to be in this discussion. I haven't heard much around him in this discussion, but dude is straight up BEASTING this year and has led Orlando to the 4th best record league so far, despite numerous injuries to 3 of the 5 starters throughout the year. Not saying he should be the front-runner, but the guy @ least deserves a mention if nothing else. My list right now would shape up something like:

(1)Kobe
(2)LeBron
(3)Dwight
(4)Wade
(5)Billups

Thoughts?


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## Hibachi!

*Re: MVP discussion*

1. LeBron
2. Dwight
3. Wade
4. Kobe
5. Everyone else


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## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*

As of right now, the only ones I can see winning it are Kobe, LeBron, Wade or Howard.


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## NewAgeBaller

*Re: MVP discussion*

^ Agreed with Basel. Order depends on how highly you value different qualities.


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## 77AJ

*Re: MVP discussion*

1.) D Wade
2.) LeBron James
3.) Dwight Howard
4.) Kobe Bryant
5.) Ray Allen


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## KillWill

*Re: MVP discussion*

bump this thread in about three months.


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## ChrisRichards

*Re: MVP discussion*

1. Wade
2. LeBron
3. Dwight Howard
4. Kobe
5. Garnett


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## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*



KillWill said:


> bump this thread in about three months.


It'll be the same 4 people, and maybe you can include Chris Paul in the discussion if the Hornets start playing more like the Hornets we expected to see.

I don't think any of the Celtics will win it just because there hasn't been one player that has stood out from their team. Some games it's KG, others its Pierce or Allen, and hell, some games it's Rondo that does better than all 3.


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## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: MVP discussion*

wade aint going to win it. lebron is the fave. media is all over his nuts. they like the young sweet taste. kobe is coming second. it would be hard not to give it to him if he finishes the season with 26 ppg 48% fg, 6 rpg, 6 apg and leads the lakers to 65 wins. dwight is going to take that DPOY. cp3 is lost in translation. his team got exposed and i dont see him getting more votes than deron williams this year.


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## rocketeer

*Re: MVP discussion*

1. lebron



2. wade





everyone else


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## 96 draft

*Re: MVP discussion*

dwight howard will win an MVP some day but not before lebron james wins an MVP


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## GrandKenyon6

*Re: MVP discussion*

There's an MVP discussion? LeBron is an absolute lock. At this point he should be the unanimous winner.


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## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*



GrandKenyon6 said:


> There's an MVP discussion? LeBron is an absolute lock. *At this point he should be the unanimous winner.*


1/4th of the way into the season? There's still a long way to go, and you never know what might happen. I do agree that LeBron is the front-runner right now, but by no means is he a lock, in my opinion.


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## KillWill

*Re: MVP discussion*



Basel57 said:


> 1/4th of the way into the season? There's still a long way to go, and you never know what might happen. I do agree that LeBron is the front-runner right now, but by no means is he a lock, in my opinion.



like i said, let's talk about it in march or april, hell, even may.


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## hendrix2430

*Re: MVP discussion*

No chance Wade wins it, sorry. He'll get the same treatment as Lebron got when he did it all by himself in the past few years. His numbers are great, but you have to remember that he is supposed to do it all by himself (playing lots of minutes, taking a lot of shots).

No 55+ wins, no MVP.


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## Idunkonyou

*Re: MVP discussion*

If we are talking about who is most valuable to their team, then it is Howard IMO. If he ever gets injured, the Magic will be in very bad shape. He creates so much offense for them and on top of that is the rock in the middle for them on defense. He does pretty much every thing for the team. Hell he has averaged 20 rebounds a game in the last 3 games, yet his team has still been out rebounded in each of those games. It would have been sad to see how badly they would have been out rebounded if Howard didn't actually play in those games.

As far as my top 5 right now, I would say this:

1a Howard
1b Lebron

2. Wade
3. Kobe
4. Duncan


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## myst

*Re: MVP discussion*



Idunkonyou said:


> If we are talking about who is most valuable to their team, then it is Howard IMO. If he ever gets injured, the Magic will be in very bad shape. He creates so much offense for them and on top of that is the rock in the middle for them on defense. He does pretty much every thing for the team. Hell he has averaged 20 rebounds a game in the last 3 games, yet his team has still been out rebounded in each of those games. It would have been sad to see how badly they would have been out rebounded if Howard didn't actually play in those games.
> 
> As far as my top 5 right now, I would say this:
> 
> 1a Howard
> 1b Lebron
> 
> 2. Wade
> 3. Kobe
> 4. Duncan


If that's the way you're judging it then Wade wins. He is the most important player to his team in the NBA. Without Wade right now the Heat might have 3 wins.


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## HKF

*Re: MVP discussion*

I saw this thread and immediately felt how anyone couldn't pick Lebron. Sorry folks, but this season is the year of the King.


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## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> Um, I wasn't gonna say anything but after tonight I think Dwight Howard needs to be in this discussion. I haven't heard much around him in this discussion, but dude is straight up BEASTING this year and has led Orlando to the 4th best record league so far, despite numerous injuries to 3 of the 5 starters throughout the year. Not saying he should be the front-runner, but the guy @ least deserves a mention if nothing else. My list right now would shape up something like:
> 
> (1)Kobe
> (2)LeBron
> (3)Dwight
> (4)Wade
> (5)Billups
> 
> Thoughts?


I'm not criticizing you or anything, but I'm just curious what the rationale is behind putting Kobe over Lebron? I think that's a hard selection to rationalize this year (even though I think they're on par as players). 

And not many people have KG on their lists... I haven't gotten to see him play too much this year, but he must be falling off or something since Boston has the best record. I would think he'd be getting more credit. Or maybe people are just tired of his antics.


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## SlamJam

*Re: MVP discussion*

lebron is clearly #1

1. lebron
2. paul
3. wade

these 3 are just in a different league than everyone else right now.


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## Idunkonyou

*Re: MVP discussion*



myst said:


> If that's the way you're judging it then Wade wins. He is the most important player to his team in the NBA. Without Wade right now the Heat might have 3 wins.


You could say the same thing about Howard. Of course I doubt you have seen one Magic game this year and won't until they play the Heat. I myself haven't seen one Heat game either, but Wade's season warrants a top 5 vote at least. Of course it will all come down to wins and losses, including the stats when it comes to MVP voting. I say based on that it could come down to Howard, Lebron and Kobe by seasons end, although a lot can happen in the last 60 games.


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## Idunkonyou

*Re: MVP discussion*



Brandname said:


> I'm not criticizing you or anything, but I'm just curious what the rationale is behind putting Kobe over Lebron? I think that's a hard selection to rationalize this year (even though I think they're on par as players).
> 
> And not many people have KG on their lists... I haven't gotten to see him play too much this year, but he must be falling off or something since Boston has the best record. I would think he'd be getting more credit. Or maybe people are just tired of his antics.


He isn't on any ones list because of his stats. Wins for your team only take you so far. KG isn't winning MVP with a 16/9 statline. No way.


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## Diable

*Re: MVP discussion*

Kobe isn't even playing close to MVP level.Bosh has better than kobe so far.I don't see how anyone can even mention him when he's been outplayed by more than half a dozen guys and outplayed by a significant margin.


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## Idunkonyou

*Re: MVP discussion*



Diable said:


> Kobe isn't even playing close to MVP level.Bosh has better than kobe so far.I don't see how anyone can even mention him when he's been outplayed by more than half a dozen guys and outplayed by a significant margin.


He is putting up a 25/5/4 statline on a 17-2 team. Of course he deserves some MVP talk. Is he the leading candidate right now? No.


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## MrJayremmie

*Re: MVP discussion*

LeBron
Howard
Wade
Kobe
Duncan

is probably what mine is.


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## myst

*Re: MVP discussion*



MrJayremmie said:


> LeBron
> Howard
> Wade
> Kobe
> Duncan
> 
> is probably what mine is.


Sounds like an All-NBA line-up to me

PG-Wade
SG-Kobe
SF-Lebron
PF-Duncan
C- Howard


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## KingoftheCourt23

*Re: MVP discussion*

Its LeBron's to lose.


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## Plastic Man

*Re: MVP discussion*

Lebron


stratosphere




Kobe





airspace

Dwight Howard



Sealevel ------------------------- 


Everybody else.

If the Hornets start winning some, Paul is back in the discussion. As silly as it is talking about this 1 month and a couple of days, I gave it a shot. 

p.s.: my crafty illustration is only a portrayal of who should be in the discussion not how good, bad or mediocre a player is performing.


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## Prolific Scorer

*Re: MVP discussion*

*I like, I like.

Dwight Howard with another strong performance last night against Camby, Randolph, and the Clippers on his 23rd B-Day.

23 Points, 22 Rebounds, 4 Asts, 6 Blocks.

Orlando hasn't had the toughest schedule so far, but we're 16-5.

He's most def in the top 3.

LeBron, Howard, Wade.*


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## Omega

*Re: MVP discussion*

obviously im stating the already stated but really the discussion can only include
Lebron
Dwight
Kobe
Wade
and in that order, and im even hesitant to put Wade but he does have the best statline in the NBA and the Heat are at least above 500


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## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*



Brandname said:


> I'm not criticizing you or anything, but I'm just curious what the rationale is behind putting Kobe over Lebron? I think that's a hard selection to rationalize this year (even though I think they're on par as players).
> 
> And not many people have KG on their lists... I haven't gotten to see him play too much this year, but he must be falling off or something since Boston has the best record. I would think he'd be getting more credit. Or maybe people are just tired of his antics.


Idk, because he is just rock solid imo. When you watch him play and manage games he is just brilliant. And he can finish games. I remember watching a Cav's game early and saw them lose a game they could've won becuase he missed 3 out his last 4 FT's. As a perimeter player MVP calibre player, you gotta be able step up and knock those shot down imo. That just stuck in my mind, but idk. I guess LBJ has a legit case for the #1 spot, as does Wade, and as does Howard as well right now. As the season progresses tho, we'll how it shakes up....


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## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*

lebron is a runaway winner right now. runaway. 

you could argue that wade, or even howard or paul's overall level of play has been comparable. but for mvp, it's just a certainty that lebron would win going away if the season ended today.


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## Plastic Man

*Re: MVP discussion*

^^Kobe missed one FT in the Wizards game too, allowing a desperation three pointer. He was 13-14 from the charity stripe though, so perhaps he meant it when he said that he wanted to give Caron a chance to win it. 

LeBron is a monster in the clutch though, so I don't think that's a legitimate reason to bump him down. He's the clear cut choice for the award 20 games in. Things can change, but you can't have those stats+that record and not be the first. 

p.s.: I'd actually campaign for someone from the Celtics, but they're like a triumvirate this year and not just the Big Two featuring Ray Allen anymore. Jesus has been killing it this season.


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## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: MVP discussion*

blue magic is right, also we havent seen lebron play at a lot of clutch games situations,its been a blowout game parade for cleveland. you see lebron struggling and not shooting well and its still a
blowout game for them, credit his teammates too. last time lebron played against a very good team in clutch situation he "choked" at the line. 




people's opinion will surely change shortly. we need to see if King James can really lead his team to wins against really good teams. all their wins so far has come from sub 500 or worst teams, with the exception of dallas and denver. not surprisingly those three losses are from detroit,boston and new orleans.



january is going to be a good measure of how good the cavs are, and when the cavs goes down, lebron does too regardless of how good his stat sheet looks like..january has some tough tests.


jan 9 vs celtics
jan 16 vs hornets
jan 19 vs lakers
jan 21 vs portland
jan 24 vs utah
jan 29 vs orlando

february has som more good games with teams against detroit,lakers,rockets,pacers and the spurs.



this is also the same time kobe gets hot and if the lakers win streak continues and kobe's numbers bumps again, i could see this becoming a two way race again...


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## f22egl

*Re: MVP discussion*



myst said:


> If that's the way you're judging it then Wade wins. He is the most important player to his team in the NBA. Without Wade right now the Heat might have 3 wins.


Gilbert for MVP. His team only has 3 wins without him!


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## hendrix2430

*Re: MVP discussion*



Idunkonyou said:


> He isn't on any ones list because of his stats. Wins for your team only take you so far. KG isn't winning MVP with a 16/9 statline. No way.


What was Nash's line when he won it?

I agree with you though that Howard is playing phenomenal and should at least get some consideration.


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## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*

Lebron's played 11 clutch minutes this yeah, hahaha. 
But for those interested, here are the stats:

http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

Skewed by very small sample size of course.

Some people seem to hone in on the times when Lebron misses in the clutch, while ignoring all his success and ignoring whenever their favorite player (Wade, Kobe, etc.) similarly misses shots, as Plastic Man pointed out. 

Law of averages means that these guys are going to miss in the clutch sometimes, honing in on one or two instances makes no sense in trying to gauge, say, an MVP ranking. 

When you look at a larger sample (say, all of the 07-08 season), you can see some stats start to jump out. During crunch time last year, Lebron raised his FT% from 71% to 79%, which is definitely a statistically significant jump. He's shown time and time again that he does raise his play when the stakes are higher, and even though he's not a great FT shooter in general, he still stepped up his game to almost 80% ft at the end of close games. 

Focusing on one or two instances that 'stick out in your mind' just doesn't make sense. Heck, a recent Lakers Cavs game that I remember had Lebron sticking the gamewinning jumper over Kobe while Kobe and the Lakers couldn't even get a shot off on the other end afterwards. Is that fair to judge Kobe by that one play or a few others? Not at all. He's got a huge body of work to back up arguments for his greatness.


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## Prolific Scorer

*Re: MVP discussion*



Brandname said:


> Lebron's played 11 clutch minutes this yeah, hahaha.
> But for those interested, here are the stats:
> 
> http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM
> 
> Skewed by very small sample size of course.
> 
> Some people seem to hone in on the times when Lebron misses in the clutch, while ignoring all his success and ignoring whenever their favorite player (Wade, Kobe, etc.) similarly misses shots, as Plastic Man pointed out.
> 
> 
> 
> When you look at a larger sample (say, all of the 07-08 season), you can see some stats start to jump out. During crunch time last year, Lebron raised his FT% from 71% to 79%, which is definitely a statistically significant jump. He's shown time and time again that he does raise his play when the stakes are higher, and even though he's not a great FT shooter in general, he still stepped up his game to almost 80% ft at the end of close games.
> 
> Heck, a recent Lakers Cavs game that I remember had Lebron sticking the gamewinning jumper over Kobe while Kobe and the Lakers couldn't even get a shot off on the other end afterwards. Is that fair to judge Kobe by that one play or a few others? Not at all. He's got a huge body of work to back up arguments for his greatness.


*Checkmate.*


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## Fray

*Re: MVP discussion*

LeBron
Wade
Paul
Howard
Bosh

Those 5 should be the front runners for MVP but because Bosh, Wade, and Paul aren't on winning teams right now it will come down to:

LeBron
Howard
Kobe


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## myst

*Re: MVP discussion*



f22egl said:


> Gilbert for MVP. His team only has 3 wins without him!


The difference though, is with Gilbert they would have about 6 wins. Wade is over .500


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## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*



Fray said:


> LeBron
> Wade
> Paul
> Howard
> Bosh
> 
> *Those 5 should be the front runners for MVP but because Bosh, Wade, and Paul aren't on winning teams right now it will come down to:*
> 
> LeBron
> Howard
> Kobe


You're right about Bosh as the Raptors are 8-11, but Wade & Miami are 12-9 and Paul & New Orleans are 11-6...


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## myst

*Re: MVP discussion*



Prolific Scorer said:


> *Checkmate.*


Checkwhat?

First, Wade is leading the league in 4th quarter points. Second, Lebrons sample size isn't big enough for that stat. If somebody plays 1 min and makes a basket, are they an 80 points per/40 player? Third, Wade is at 10.0 in clutch assists, while Lebron is at 4.4. Wade is also at the top of clutch blocks. Wade is also above Lebron is clutch ft%. So checkwho? :cookie?:


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## KingoftheCourt23

*Re: MVP discussion*

17-3 > 12-9


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## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*



KingoftheCourt23 said:


> 17-3 > 12-9


Is there anyone doubting this?


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## girllovesthegame

*Re: MVP discussion*

NBA.com's Race to the MVP

ESPN.com' MVP rankings 12/9

The Hornets' schedule has been almost NFL like. It seems they play one game a week. Through 17 games they are exactly where they were last season at 11-6 which is currently good for 4th in the conference (even if for only one night considering how clustered the WC is outside of the Lakers). They've only played 17 games whereas some teams have already played 20-22. As for the MVP race, Paul has seemed to have taken up right where he left off last season (league leading assists and steals, 14 double doubles with the next guard in the league having only 5 or 6) even though it's been hard for this team to get into any kind of rhythm playing games every 3-5 days.


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## Fray

*Re: MVP discussion*

I shouldn't have said they aren't on winning teams. What I meant is that so far they don't look like elite teams that will end up with 55+ wins. Those are the teams that the MVP award usually goes to.

Actually I'd probably take Howard off the list as well. The Celtics, Lakers, and Cavs will have the best records and that will narrow it down to probably LeBron or Kobe. A Celtics player won't get it because they have 3 stars.


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## KingoftheCourt23

*Re: MVP discussion*



Basel57 said:


> Is there anyone doubting this?


No but you have to be kidding yourself if you think "clutch stats" play more of a role in the MVP than team wins and losses. See James, LeBron 07-08.


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## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*



Fray said:


> I shouldn't have said they aren't on winning teams. What I meant is that so far they don't look like elite teams that will end up with 55+ wins. Those are the teams that the MVP award usually goes to.
> 
> Actually I'd probably take Howard off the list as well. The Celtics, Lakers, and Cavs will have the best records and that will narrow it down to probably LeBron or Kobe. A Celtics player won't get it because they have 3 stars.


Hornets could still end up winning 55+. Last season, they also started 11-6 and they ended up 56-26. But yeah, Heat probably won't reach 50, and neither will the Raptors.


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## HB

*Re: MVP discussion*

Bron
Kobe
Howard
Wade
Billups
Harris
Dirk
Paul


Nobody with a record under 500 should be a MVP candidate


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## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*



KingoftheCourt23 said:


> No but you have to be kidding yourself if you think "clutch stats" play more of a role in the MVP than team wins and losses. See James, LeBron 07-08.


You're right; I don't think anyone is using that as the main reason for their MVP argument. It's just one of the factors some people might use.


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## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*

It's Lebron's to lose in terms of typical MVP consideration: stats plus team wins which tends to get the award. Plus Lebron has paid his "dues" similar to Kobe and Dirk over the last few years.

Straight from a numbers standpoint (from a per possession view) it's Lebron, Wade as 1a and 1b. Paul close behind. Step below those 3 is Howard and then everyone else is far behind.

In terms of the future I would sell Howard and Wade's MVP chances as there team's strength of schedule based on sagarin's rating are really low (30 and 28th respectively). There going to hit some tough games down the road where it will be harder to pad the numbers.


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## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP discussion*



Pioneer10 said:


> It's Lebron's to lose in terms of typical MVP consideration: *stats plus team wins *which tends to get the award. Plus Lebron has paid his "dues" similar to Kobe and Dirk over the last few years.
> 
> Straight from a numbers standpoint (from a per possession view) it's Lebron, Wade as 1a and 1b. Paul close behind. Step below those 3 is Howard and then everyone else is far behind.
> 
> In terms of the future I would sell Howard and Wade's MVP chances as there team's strength of schedule based on sagarin's rating are really low (30 and 28th respectively). There going to hit some tough games down the road where it will be harder to pad the numbers.



Exactly what i was thinking.
By the looks of it, Kobe is out of the equation, EVEN if the Lakers finish with the best record in tah NBA. Whoever leads his team into a 50+ win season and gets the better stats wins it.
*Right now*, i agree it's Lebron's award to lose.


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## BlackNRed

*Re: MVP discussion*

1. Wade (but the Heat probably need to win at least 50 for that to happen)
2. Lebron (now that he's got a team around him he's showing how well he can lead that team)
3. Dwight (Orlando would be up a creek without a paddle without this monster)


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## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*

kobe gets back in the race the bigger the gap between the lakers record and the record of the other top mvp candidates teams.


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## zagsfan20

*Re: MVP discussion*

Brandon Roy.


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## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



myst said:


> Checkwhat?
> 
> First, Wade is leading the league in 4th quarter points. Second, Lebrons sample size isn't big enough for that stat. If somebody plays 1 min and makes a basket, are they an 80 points per/40 player? Third, Wade is at 10.0 in clutch assists, while Lebron is at 4.4. Wade is also at the top of clutch blocks. Wade is also above Lebron is clutch ft%. So checkwho? :cookie?:


I think you might have missed the point of my post.


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## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Heated said:


> 1. Wade (but the Heat probably need to win at least 50 for that to happen)
> 2. Lebron (now that he's got a team around him he's showing how well he can lead that team)
> 3. Dwight (Orlando would be up a creek without a paddle without this monster)


For Wade to win, I think the Heat have to win around 55 and Wade is going to have to separate his own individual play from Lebron. It's a tall order, but additional factors like injury could come into play to improve (or hurt) his chances.


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## myst

*Re: MVP discussion*



Brandname said:


> I think you might have missed the point of my post.


I was talking to Prolific Scorer who seemed to think your post solved the debate, when like you said, it doesn't.


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## Prolific Scorer

*Re: MVP discussion*



myst said:


> I was talking to Prolific Scorer who seemed to think your post solved the debate, when like you said, it doesn't.


*I didn't mean it was the end all of the debate. It was just a good response.

If the result from that game he was referring to would've been the other way around, I doubt we would hear the end of it.

But since LeBron got the upperhand that game, it seems to have vanished from people's selective memory.*


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## Ras

*Re: MVP discussion*

How can anyone put Wade or Dwight above LeBron? Especially with the excuse that the Magic or Heat would be miserable without Wade and Dwight. Do you honestly think that Cavs would be so great with Mo Williams as their main offensive option?


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## Ras

*Re: MVP discussion*



Heated said:


> 1. Wade (but the Heat probably need to win at least 50 for that to happen)
> 2. Lebron (now that he's got a team around him he's showing how well he can lead that team)
> 3. Dwight (Orlando would be up a creek without a paddle without this monster)


What has Wade done that has separated him from LeBron?


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## Smallballs

*Re: MVP discussion*

It is definitely LeBron's award to win or lose this year. You can argue all you want about who you think should get it, but it seems that the feeling around the league, and among sports journalists, is that this is LeBron's "year." If he performs up to his usual level, and the Cavaliers continue to win, he's got it locked up.

Sometimes there's just a feeling at the beginning of the season of which player has paid his dues, which player deserves an MVP next. Like when KG won his MVP, remember?

They want to give it to LeBron this year because he was so awesome last year, and now his team is winning. He's been an MVP-level player for a couple of years now at least, without receiving any serious consideration. Now his team is one of the elite teams in the league. 

Someone else, whether it be Wade or anyone, would have to have a very remarkable year both individually and with his team, in order to pull the upset.


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## Dre

*Re: MVP discussion*

This is Lebron's year. As long as he doesn't miss a big stretch and the Cavs don't fall too far off this pace, it's his year. The talent disparity between he and the rest of his team is still ridiculous, and they're on pace for 60 wins. 

I guess Paul will be next in line, then Dwight has to get his sooner or later. The MVP doesn't really mean much anymore though, it's just a bunch of great players in line for hollow recognition of the stuff they've been doing the past 3 years.


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## Smallballs

*Re: MVP discussion*



Dre™;5784698 said:


> This is Lebron's year. As long as he doesn't miss a big stretch and the Cavs don't fall too far off this pace, it's his year. The talent disparity between he and the rest of his team is still ridiculous, and they're on pace for 60 wins.
> 
> I guess Paul will be next in line, then Dwight has to get his sooner or later. The MVP doesn't really mean much anymore though, it's just a bunch of great players in line for hollow recognition of the stuff they've been doing the past 3 years.


lol. Well said. That's the truth now, love it or hate it.


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## NewAgeBaller

*Re: MVP discussion*

Right now I have:

1) Lebron
2) Wade
3) Dwight
4) Kobe

By seasons end it'll probably be more like (out of the 4 candidates I named):

1) Lebron
2) Kobe
3) Dwight
4) Wade

...based on team record and such.


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## NewAgeBaller

*Re: MVP discussion*



Idunkonyou said:


> If we are talking about who is most valuable to their team, then it is Howard IMO. If he ever gets injured, the Magic will be in very bad shape.


Miami is +125 with Wade on the floor, and -95 with Wade on the bench. According to the Miami Herald, only New Orleans' Chris Paul has a bigger differential.


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## Spaceman Spiff

*Re: MVP discussion*

1) Lebron
2) Dwight
3) B-Roy
4) Kobe

Wade doesn't have enough wins to be mentioned here.


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## Plastic Man

*Re: MVP discussion*



NewAgeBaller said:


> Miami is +125 with Wade on the floor, and -95 with Wade on the bench. According to the Miami Herald, only New Orleans' Chris Paul has a bigger differential.


Miami Heral is wrong.

Paul - +175 with him on the floor, -93 with him off. Net +/- of 266.
Wade - +125 with him on the floor, -95 with him off. Net +/- of 220.
James - +288 with him on the floor, -22 with him off. Net +/- of 310.
Kobe - +217 with him on the floor, +15 with him off. Net +/- of 202.

Roy has a Net +/- of +52, Duncan +6, Dwight Howard +68, Devin Harris +89, Pau Gasol +96, Lamar Odom +132 and Ariza a +10. Ray Allen has a +/- of 281, Garnett +279, Rondo +185 and Pierce +159. But this is raw +/-, Roland rating has all sorts of adjustments and is probably a better stat to use.


----------



## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*

roland is just a mix between +/- and PER differential. but it doesn't really address the interdependencies, which is the main reason the celts starting 5 all have top +/- ratings.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Plastic Man said:


> James - +288 with him on the floor, *-22 with him off.* Net +/- of 310.


Can you freaking imagine that? I never thought I would see the day. That is the best number of the season for me (besides our record of course).


----------



## Plastic Man

*Re: MVP discussion*

^^Yep, I had to triple check that number. Here's how the Cavs as a team were "holding it down" without LeBron for the past 4 seasons:
2004/05 = -87 without him on the floor.
2005/06 = -90.
2006/07 = -65.
2007/08 = -166. 

It's a simple stat and kflo already pointed out it's flaws (I think ), but still it was pretty clear when watching the Cavs last year that the team was completely lost without Bron. What a jump in only a couple of months... I'm actually thinking about watching them even more this year, because I could only hold on while LeBron was in the game last season and then turned the horror off.


----------



## Lebbron

*Re: MVP discussion*



Plastic Man said:


> Miami Heral is wrong.
> 
> Paul - +175 with him on the floor, -93 with him off. Net +/- of 266.
> Wade - +125 with him on the floor, -95 with him off. Net +/- of 220.
> James - +288 with him on the floor, -22 with him off. Net +/- of 310.
> Kobe - +217 with him on the floor, +15 with him off. Net +/- of 202.
> 
> Roy has a Net +/- of +52, Duncan +6, Dwight Howard +68, Devin Harris +89, Pau Gasol +96, Lamar Odom +132 and Ariza a +10. Ray Allen has a +/- of 281, Garnett +279, Rondo +185 and Pierce +159. But this is raw +/-, Roland rating has all sorts of adjustments and is probably a better stat to use.


 82games doesn't do adjusted +/- or anything fancy it's just +/- per 100 possessions. Paul's team has only played 17 games for some reason. I don't think I remember seeing 6 game differences in games played between teams before.


----------



## Plastic Man

*Re: MVP discussion*

Yes, I said that.  They do adjusted +/- as the season goes on if I'm not mistaken, but I didn't see it yet.

And yeah, the Hornets have played a ridiculously low amount of games this season. Very strange scheduling to say the least.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP discussion*

I read one of the guys who invented adjusted +/- explain it once and it made the entire concept seem retarded to me.Apparently he thought that everyone on good teams had good +/- and everyone on bad teams had bad +/-....So he is somehow adjusting it without taking any consideration of why some teams are good and some teams are bad...mainly the fact that they have good players.


So you take the best player off a good team and adjust it so that his +/- doesn't reflect the fact that he impacts how good his team is?That's just dumb.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

^ Yeah I agree. Because a guy like Perkins could have a better +/- than say, a guy like Dwight Howard. And not because he's better, just becuase he starts on a team with 3 other HoF's so his +/- is inflated compared to his true impact. Same goes for Rondo's +/- dominating D. Harris'. No way does that reflect true impact.


----------



## Plastic Man

*Re: MVP discussion*

^^I don't quite understand what you two are saying (and BlueMagic I think diable meant that adjusted +/- is a strange stat), but here's a (made up) example.

Fisher and Radmanovic plays the majority of the time next to Kobe, Gasol and Bynum. So if there's a game where the starting lineup outscores the opponent by 25, every one gets a +/- of +25. And as the season goes on, Fisher ends with a better +/- than let's say a Dwyane Wade who plays on a worse team. So, raw +/- means that teams outscore opponents by X when players are in the game, but nothing else and turns out to be an extremely hollow stat if you ask me. As such, Fisher's value to the Lakers is extremely overvalued because he plays next to 3 great players, while Wade is undervalued because he plays a lot and plays with lesser players. That in essence is what adjusted +/- tries to correct and I think it's not a bad idea. Depends on how is calculated I guess, but you almost always get a lot better feel for who's important to the team and who isn't as important (Wade, Fisher ) going by adj. +/- rather than plain old boxscore +/-.

Perhaps you're complicating things a bit.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

^ Oh, im confused now.... I agree with what you just said tho. Regular +/- doesnt really reflect true impact, it's more of a result of what unit is on the court with you than each individuals impact imo.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

*Re: MVP discussion*



Plastic Man said:


> Miami Heral is wrong.
> 
> Paul - +175 with him on the floor, -93 with him off. Net +/- of 266.
> Wade - +125 with him on the floor, -95 with him off. Net +/- of 220.
> James - +288 with him on the floor, -22 with him off. Net +/- of 310.
> Kobe - +217 with him on the floor, +15 with him off. Net +/- of 202.
> 
> Roy has a Net +/- of +52, Duncan +6, Dwight Howard +68, Devin Harris +89, Pau Gasol +96, Lamar Odom +132 and Ariza a +10. Ray Allen has a +/- of 281, Garnett +279, Rondo +185 and Pierce +159. But this is raw +/-, Roland rating has all sorts of adjustments and is probably a better stat to use.



My bad, Miami Herald let me down..

And I'm not into the whole eFG%, PER, TS%, etc.. They all above me. 



Plastic Man said:


> ^^I don't quite understand what you two are saying (and BlueMagic I think diable meant that adjusted +/- is a strange stat), but here's a (made up) example.
> 
> Fisher and Radmanovic plays the majority of the time next to Kobe, Gasol and Bynum. So if there's a game where the starting lineup outscores the opponent by 25, every one gets a +/- of +25. And as the season goes on, Fisher ends with a better +/- than let's say a Dwyane Wade who plays on a worse team. So, raw +/- means that teams outscore opponents by X when players are in the game, but nothing else and turns out to be an extremely hollow stat if you ask me. As such, Fisher's value to the Lakers is extremely overvalued because he plays next to 3 great players, while Wade is undervalued because he plays a lot and plays with lesser players. That in essence is what adjusted +/- tries to correct and I think it's not a bad idea. Depends on how is calculated I guess, but you almost always get a lot better feel for who's important to the team and who isn't as important (Wade, Fisher ) going by adj. +/- rather than plain old boxscore +/-.
> 
> Perhaps you're complicating things a bit.


Yea good point. The one you posted in the first quote, that was non-adjusted?


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

MVP Alert: Melo just dropped 17 points in a row and 19 total in the 3rd qtr already with 4 mins to go still. 

Scratch that. As I post, he knocks down two three's and a dunk. Actually, make that 29 point in just this quarter alone with a min n a hlaf to go. This dude is soo slept on.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*

Might be slept on (though I'm sure not everyone agrees), but right now, Billups is more of an MVP for that team than Melo.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

^ Man, I thought so too but after tonight I dont know. If your watching this game you'll know what im talking about. If it was Billups team before, I think Melo just took that title away from him no questions asked. 33 points in ONE qtr? This is NOW Carmelo's team! I think we can say he has finally broken out of that early season slump.  Not to mention his rebounding #'s this year are way up from seasons past.... Already got 42/9 goin into the 4th.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*

One game doesn't change everything.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP discussion*

LINK

Where's Carmelo?Had to sort by position so you could find him without flipping the page.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: MVP discussion*

if the Cavs finish the season strong with a great record, it's LeBron James MVP year guaranteed.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

You guys need to relax. Im not saying Melo will WIN the MVP, he was just putting up a noteworthy performance on a noteworthy team. He has been struggling with his shot this year, but as you can see, he broke out that slump in a big way. The season is till young and he deserved a mention. 

....and PER means NOTHING to me.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP discussion*

Apparently the rest of reality means nothing to you as well


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

^ Whatever. If you, in all honesty, believe that half the guys on that list ahead of Melo on are, in fact, 'better' than Melo than YOU must be on the pipe. I dont need a damn computer to tell me what I see. As the best player on a top 5 team, and coming off of a 45/11 night, Melo deserved a mention. Period. And never did I say 'Melo 4 MVP'. I just said 'MVP alert', meaning that he's on the radar. Goddamn, some of you guys are way too arrogant when it comes to ur little per's and +/- garbage...


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: MVP discussion*

dude, he is on pipe..


----------



## Plastic Man

*Re: MVP discussion*



ChrisRichards said:


> if the Cavs finish the season strong with a great record, it's LeBron James MVP year guaranteed.


Pretty much. One thing's for certain, if the season ended today, he should get every single 1st place vote.

@Blue Magic: yeah, the first one I posted was unadjusted.


----------



## hroz

*Re: MVP discussion*

Read the first page. Seriously nobody said Chris Paul??????????????????


----------



## pac4eva5

*Re: MVP discussion*

ZERO "experts" said denver would make the playoffs. then 1-3 happens. then chauncey happens. then 2nd in the west happens.

why is this even a debate?

*Edit: None of that. *


----------



## pac4eva5

*Re: MVP discussion*



Basel said:


> One game doesn't change everything.


one game? the guy leads the entire nba in rebounds for SF's. he is playing 5x better on defense. and his selfishness has dropped about 99 points. what more do u guys want? u honestly dont think he cant drop 30 a night? hes had a contusion on his shooting elbow since teh first week of the season. hes doing what it takes to win FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS CAREER. not good enough?

lol this early season "slump" is pretty normal for him too. hope the league is ready for that jumper...


----------



## myst

*Re: MVP discussion*



hroz said:


> Read the first page. Seriously nobody said Chris Paul??????????????????


Why does he deserve it?



pac4eva5 said:


> ZERO "experts" said denver would make the playoffs. then 1-3 happens. then chauncey happens. then 2nd in the west happens.
> 
> why is this even a debate?
> *Edit: None of that. *


Yeah, that's mature.



pac4eva5 said:


> one game? the guy leads the entire nba in rebounds for SF's. he is playing 5x better on defense. and his selfishness has dropped about 99 points. what more do u guys want? u honestly dont think he cant drop 30 a night? hes had a contusion on his shooting elbow since teh first week of the season. hes doing what it takes to win FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS CAREER. not good enough?
> 
> lol this early season "slump" is pretty normal for him too. hope the league is ready for that jumper...


Did somebody jam a pool cue up your ass? And being able to drop 30 a night means nothing. Lebron and Kobe could drop 50 a night if they wanted. Being able, and doing are two different things.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: MVP discussion*



pac4eva5 said:


> ZERO "experts" said denver would make the playoffs. then 1-3 happens. then chauncey happens. then 2nd in the west happens.
> 
> why is this even a debate?
> 
> *Edit: None of that. *


so you're saying billups deserves to win it, right?

it really doesn't matter though. there isn't a better player or player who means more to their team than lebron. he is the mvp, no question about it.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: MVP discussion*

fast forward to playoffs plz


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



pac4eva5 said:


> ZERO "experts" said denver would make the playoffs. then 1-3 happens. then chauncey happens. then 2nd in the west happens.
> 
> why is this even a debate?
> 
> *Edit: None of that. *


wtf?


----------



## Plastic Man

*Re: MVP discussion*

^^Yeah, I like how he managed to put Europeans in that crap of a post. Brilliant.


----------



## hendrix2430

*Re: MVP discussion*

Europeans? :lol:


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP discussion*



pac4eva5 said:


> ZERO "experts" said denver would make the playoffs. then 1-3 happens. then chauncey happens. then 2nd in the west happens.
> 
> why is this even a debate?
> 
> *Edit: None of that. *


Why don't you go listen to "All Eyez On Me" and take a chill pill, loser.

It's too early to hand out awards, but LeBron, Kobe, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, and, yes, Carmelo have to be the favorites right now. Dwyane Wade, if he wins the scoring title and the Heat approach 50 wins, should get major consideration as well.

I just don't see the Nuggets being there at the end of the year.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP discussion*

at this point, it has to be Lebron.


----------



## Smallballs

*Re: MVP discussion*

As an 11-year-old European Iverson-homer with an IQ of 68, I find this thread very offensive. :rant:


----------



## jayk009

*Re: MVP discussion*

whoever doesn't mention Chris Paul as an MVP candidate doesn't know what they're talking about.....


----------



## Smallballs

*Re: MVP discussion*



jayisthebest88 said:


> whoever doesn't mention Chris Paul as an MVP candidate doesn't know what they're talking about.....


I think people are just unimpressed with the Hornets so far. They have failed to establish themselves among the league's elite teams this season, which includes the Celtics, the Cavs, and the Lakers, with the Blazers and the Magic on a tier right below. I don't think anyone outside of those 5 teams would get any MVP consideration right now.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*

Hornets will pick it up, and at the end of the season, I think Paul will be in the discussion along with LeBron, Kobe & Howard, whose teams will all have good records. As for Wade, he's definitely playing like an MVP, but if his team doesn't get at least 50 wins, he's got no chance.


----------



## myst

*Re: MVP discussion*



Smallballs said:


> As an 11-year-old European Iverson-homer with an IQ of 68, I find this thread very offensive. :rant:


:lol:

:rofl:

:rotf:


----------



## Plastic Man

*Re: MVP discussion*



Smallballs said:


> As an 11-year-old European Iverson-homer with an IQ of 68, I find this thread very offensive. :rant:



/thread:lol:


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

*BUMP*

As of Jan 20th and basically midway through the season(based on Games Played), I think it's a good time to see where we stand.... L.A., ORL & CLE all essentially have the same record, and they all have 1 true superstar leading them. Based on the performance of their key players 1-3 is pretty easy so far.... After that it gets a little harder, but here is how I would rank 1-10 right now

(1a)*LeBron Bron*(TR: 31-8) - 27.6 ppg, 7.20 rpg, 6.6 apg, 2.0 spg, 1.3 bpg
(1b)*Kobe Bryant*(TR: 32-8) - 27.0 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.4 bpg

(3)*Dwight Howard*(TR: 33-8) - 20.2 ppg, 14.10 rpg, 3.2 bpg, 1.4 apg, 1.0 spg

(4)*Chris Paul*(TR: 25-13) - 20.9 ppg, 11.1 apg, 5.4 rpg, 2.7 spg, 0.1 bpg
(5)*Tim Duncan*(TR: 27-13) - 20.2 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.9 bpg, 0.4 spg

(6)*Dwyane Wade*(TR: 22-18) - 28.9 ppg, 7.4 apg, 4.90 rpg, 2.3 spg, 1.6 bpg
(7)*KG*(TR: 34-9) - 16.1 ppg, 9.10 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1.3 bpg, 1.2 spg
(8)*Carmelo Anthony*(TR: 27-15) - 21.1 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 3.6 apg, 0.9 spg, 0.3 bpg
(9)*Joe Johnson*(TR: 24-16) - 22.2 ppg, 6.0 apg, 4.5 rpg, 1.0 spg, 0.4 bpg
(10)*Brandon Roy*(TR: 25-16) - 22.3 ppg, 5.3 apg, 4.8 rpg, 1.0 spg, 0.3 bpg


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: MVP discussion*

Here's my list.

1) CP3
2) Wade
3) Lebron
4) Dwight
5) Kobe


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

CP3 is nice, but ahead of Kobe/LBJ?

DWade nice too, but team record has to count for something, right?


----------



## HKF

*Re: MVP discussion*

I am not sure how Paul could get it over Bron. As good as he has been, not only is Lebron better than him, but he has been more valuable as well.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP discussion*

There's noone aside from lebron ahead of Paul,but if anyone watched the hornets he would have won the mvp last year and it seems to be the norm for everything he does to go completely ignored.You could ask right now if any point guard has ever had a better season than he's had.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*



Diable said:


> There's noone aside from lebron ahead of Paul


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: MVP discussion*

it was ridiculous that Paul didn't win the MVP last year.

this is lebron's year though


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: MVP discussion*



HKF said:


> I am not sure how Paul could get it over Bron. As good as he has been, not only is Lebron better than him, but he has been more valuable as well.


That is extremely false. Have you ever seen the Hornets play basketball when Paul is on the bench? They are completely lost. 

LeBron is having a great season, he really is. However, Chris Paul does not get the recognition he deserves. The guy is scoring more efficiently than Bron (FG% are almost identical, with Paul having significantly higher 3PT and FT percentages). Albeit he's scoring less than LeBron, he's right under 21 PPG on top of being the best distributor in the league at 11.1 APG.

Paul is scoring more efficiently, passing better, getting more steals, turning the ball over less, and is only averaging 1.8 less rebounds per game than LeBron. Mind you Chris Paul is doing this all from the point guard position, while LeBron is doing it as a wing player. Not trying to put down LeBron, he's an amazing player having one of his sure to be many spectacular seasons, but Chris Paul is the best player in the league today.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

If we're talking best player today, it's hard not to give that title to Kobe 'Bean' Bryant...... I like CP3, but c'mon now, he is not better than Kobe.


----------



## HKF

*Re: MVP discussion*

Paul plays in an offense that has the ball in his hands at all times. His numbers are inflated because of it. Yes he's obviously good enough to have that situation, but I don't need the stats to tell me that Lebron is having a better year, because he has been dominating the competition, this past week not withstanding. Paul's rebounding is impressive, but the steals record is what it is. Lebron locked down Paul Pierce two weeks ago with true man to man, not steals.

Then you have to point to the records if you were to think that it was close. Lebron wins that one going away.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

*Re: MVP discussion*

I like your list Blue Magic, but I would put Wade ahead of Duncan - and I would have Billups instead of Carmelo.

1 - LeBron James

2 A/B/C/D - Bryant, Howard, Paul, Wade


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: MVP discussion*

There is no way I can knowingly give Bryant the MVP when the Lakers are really stacked.

1) LeBron
2) Wade
3) Howard


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

Kobe Bryant has no weakness(other than his sore pinkie).... No one else can claim that, except for maybe CP3. Whether his team is stacked or not, he is BIG part of his teams success and he's the most complete player in the game.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: MVP discussion*

low bball IQ and poor shot selection just for starters.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*



ChrisRichards said:


> low bball IQ and poor shot selection just for starters.


Poor shot selection? LeBron leads that charge...... Dont even get me started on his FT shooting for an acclaimed 'closer', either.... And Kobe with a low bball I.Q. is comical, but I dont want to turn this into homer debate purely bashing other players. Please, lets try and stick to the #'s and the facts and have a good debate...


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*

Obviously Bron is far and away #1 right now. He's having the best individual season in the league, and the Cavs have been at or around the best record in the league all year.

There is a glut of guys kind of hovering around the #2 spot. Wade is having the second best individual season in the league, but his team's not as good. Kobe is having another solid year on a team with a great record. CP3 is playing great again and just came up huge for the Hornets last night. And Dwight is anchoring the team playing the best ball in the league over the past week or two. It's actually a very close call for #2 right now.


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: MVP discussion*

I think barring any changes that the award has to go to LeBron with ease... It's just not even close imo. 

1. LeBron
2abc. Kobe/Paul/Howard


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

I think it's very close. I think Kobe and Lebron are neck-n-neck right now, with Kobe slowing gaining on Lebron but Lebron slightly ahead none-the-less..... After them, I guess anyone could make a case for Dwight or CP3 or maybe even Wade for #3, but I dont like the Heats record so Wade is a notch below imo(Kobe could lead the league in scoring by a good bit but have a .500 record and people would be all on his nuts, so you have to weigh winning% heavily when the players are this close).

LeBron is doing the most with the least and his #'s avg's are little higher than Kobe's, so he gets the nod for now. But Kobe is the more diverse player and I think more efficient overall. He is a better closer imo, but Lebron is more valuable becuase he has a slightly lesser supporting cast.... It's VERY close though.


----------



## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*

i think kobe's on a clear tier below lebron for mvp. he's in the d.howard group.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> But Kobe is the more diverse player and I *think more efficient overall.*


He's not.


----------



## dominikan_balla1

*Re: MVP discussion*

*I'd say ..

1.Lebron- playing the best ball of his career and much improved defense.
2.Kobe- just being kobe while his team is one of the top teams in the league
3.Dwight- Much improved magic team and is leading the league in rebounding and blocks should be a LOCK for dpoy
4.Wade- Having the best season of his career while single handely maintening miami in playoffs contention.
5.Cp3- If his team had the best record in the league he'll probably be number 1 in MY list.
*


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*



> *Brandname* He's not.


Look @ 3pt% / FT% / AST-TO ratio / FG%

*Kobe leads 3pt%/FT% each by a good margin

Lebron has like a 2% lead in AST-TO ratio and a 2% lead in overall FG%....*

Overall though, Kobe is a more efficient player on the whole though going by the point differential those #'s. At least imo.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> Look @ 3pt% / FT% / AS-TO ratio / FG%
> 
> *Kobe leads 3pt%/FT% by a good margin
> 
> Lebron has 2% lead in AS-TO ratio and a 2% lead in FG%....*
> 
> Overall Kobe is a more efficient player on the whole though, going by those #'s


I'm sorry, but that's not true. It's a misrepresentation of the numbers. What those numbers indicate is that Kobe is a better 3 point shooter and FT shooter than Lebron is.

Lebron is the more efficient player this year.


----------



## hroz

*Re: MVP discussion*

Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Dwight Howard all have a chance to win this.

D-Wade cant because his team wont get to 50 wins.
If I was to order them it would go
LeBron James
Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Dwight Howard

PS I agree Chris Paul should have won it last year.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*



ChrisRichards said:


> it was ridiculous that Paul didn't win the MVP last year.
> 
> this is lebron's year though


Let me guess, you don't think that Kobe deserved the MVP in any of his years, including his jaw dropping 2006 year 2007 year or apperently last year?

My God do you ever know what your talking about?


And LOL at Kobe havnig a low Basketball IQ


----------



## DNKO

*Re: MVP discussion*

Yeah, James is allegedly more efficient because Cavs had a better start. I wonder will the claims be the same if they get in some slump and fall of record-wise.

Whatever the answer to this may be, James doesn't play dramatically different from last year.

Well...what's the difference then, DNKO, you hating douche?


Supporting cast. I think James needs to thank them on national television. Because they're play like clockwork whole season. And bail him out a lot.


----------



## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*

you who didn't need a supporting cast? larry bird, mutha****a. that's right, larry ****in bird. know who else? magic. magic *no masked cursing* johnson, that's who. and they played in the 80s. the ****in 80s! \m/


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



DNKO said:


> Yeah, James is allegedly more efficient because Cavs had a better start. I wonder will the claims be the same if they get in some slump and fall of record-wise.
> 
> Whatever the answer to this may be, James doesn't play dramatically different from last year.
> 
> Well...what's the difference then, DNKO, you hating douche?
> 
> 
> Supporting cast. I think James needs to thank them on national television. Because they're play like clockwork whole season. And bail him out a lot.


Um, efficiency has nothing to do with team record.

EDIT - I'm glad that you're willing to admit that Lebron has played at such a phenomenally high level for the past few years, though, despite not having quite as good of a team.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*

Lebron TS% is 59.4. Kobe's TS% is 57.3.
Lebron ends up being a more efficient scorer then Kobe because he gets to the line more then Kobe.

**Off-topic: true shooting percentage is probably the best "advanced stat" out there people really need to use it more as it takes into FG's, FT's, 3pt's and gives a clear and accurate picture of scoring efficiency


----------



## dominikan_balla1

*Re: MVP discussion*



kflo said:


> you who didn't need a supporting cast? larry bird, mutha****a. that's right, larry ****in bird. know who else? magic. magic *no masked cursing* johnson, that's who. and they played in the 80s. the ****in 80s! \m/


*What's your purpose in cursing so much?*


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

That's becuase Kobe hasn't a better supporting cast. He doesnt have to dominate the ball and give up his body like Lebron, he can feed Pau or Bynum as legit weapons in the paint. Lebron has to do all of that himself, but if you have someone who can stay in front of him and force him to make J's like L.A. and Chicago did, then he struggles. Im guessing TS% is a volume stat, so since Lebron shoots more FT's it doesn't mean he's a 'more effeciant' scorer. TS sounds like a completely different statistical category to me.


----------



## croco

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> *That's becuase Kobe hasn't a better supporting cast.* He doesnt have to dominate the ball and give up his body like Lebron, he can feed Pau or Bynum as legit weapons in the paint. Lebron has to do all of that himself, but if you have someone who can stay in front of him and force him to make J's like L.A. and Chicago did, then he struggles. Im guessing TS% is a volume stat, so since Lebron shoots more FT's it doesn't mean he's a 'more effeciant' scorer. TS sounds like a completely different statistical category to me.


:thinking2:


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*

^ He's talking about prior to last year I think.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

No, im talking about this year i just meant to say 'Kobe *has* a better supporting cast'. Meaning he doesnt have to force the issue in the paint when he has Pau and Bynum who can get PIP(point in paint). Someone was referencing a stat that takess Lebron's higher volume of FT's and somehow reflects him as a 'more efficient' all-around scorer. I was saying that is not an accurate stat. That is a volume stat that somehow contorts the #'s.... I have know idea what 'True Shooting %' is so go figure..... It doesn't really even make sense to me..... Kobe is a better FT shooter, and a better 3pt shooter. Period. He's more effecient in each particular aspect of the game. I dont where they found that TS% stat, but i guess they have stats that can distort anything these days.....


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*

^ Oh my bad. But TS us actually one of the best measurements to get a feel of how a player in efficient, if not the best. Yes Kobe is the better Freethrow and 3 Point shooter, but he isn't has efficient inside of the three point line, and that evidenced by pretty much every other measurment. So while Lebron may be more efficient, it's not THAT big of a gap.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: MVP discussion*

Look guys, there's no getting around it this year.

This is LeBron's year. His team's record is just as good as anyone else in the NBA, yet his Cavs are a surprise this year. Who thought the Cavs would be this good this year? Everyone was saying Celtics / Lakers again, but here we are.

ALSO - LeBron's numbers are not as good as they could be. He has sat the 4th quarter A TON this season because he lead his team to huge leads that he can just ride the bench for the 4th.
His stats would be higher.

LeBron is a beast. He's going to start his domination of the NBA within the next 5 years.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> No, im talking about this year i just meant to say 'Kobe *has* a better supporting cast'. Meaning he doesnt have to force the issue in the paint when he has Pau and Bynum who can get PIP(point in paint). Someone was referencing a stat that takess Lebron's higher volume of FT's and somehow reflects him as a 'more efficient' all-around scorer. I was saying that is not an accurate stat. That is a volume stat that somehow contorts the #'s.... I have know idea what 'True Shooting %' is so go figure..... It doesn't really even make sense to me..... Kobe is a better FT shooter, and a better 3pt shooter. Period. He's more effecient in each particular aspect of the game. I dont where they found that TS% stat, but i guess they have stats that can distort anything these days.....


Why do you talk so much about something you clearly know nothing about?


----------



## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> No, im talking about this year i just meant to say 'Kobe *has* a better supporting cast'. Meaning he doesnt have to force the issue in the paint when he has Pau and Bynum who can get PIP(point in paint). Someone was referencing a stat that takess Lebron's higher volume of FT's and somehow reflects him as a 'more efficient' all-around scorer. I was saying that is not an accurate stat. That is a volume stat that somehow contorts the #'s.... I have know idea what 'True Shooting %' is so go figure..... It doesn't really even make sense to me..... Kobe is a better FT shooter, and a better 3pt shooter. Period. He's more effecient in each particular aspect of the game. I dont where they found that TS% stat, but i guess they have stats that can distort anything these days.....


true scoring efficiency is not just based on the % with which you hit 2's, 3's and ft's. it's also based on the proportion you take of each. if you're a 90% ft shooter, but never get to the line, your overall scoring efficiency isn't going to be helped that much by your high ft%. lebron has the higher effective fg% (2's and 3's), and gets to the line more, and is hitting at good rate this year.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> No, im talking about this year i just meant to say 'Kobe *has* a better supporting cast'. Meaning he doesnt have to force the issue in the paint when he has Pau and Bynum who can get PIP(point in paint). Someone was referencing a stat that takess Lebron's higher volume of FT's and somehow reflects him as a 'more efficient' all-around scorer. I was saying that is not an accurate stat. That is a volume stat that somehow contorts the #'s.... I have know idea what 'True Shooting %' is so go figure..... It doesn't really even make sense to me..... Kobe is a better FT shooter, and a better 3pt shooter. Period. He's more effecient in each particular aspect of the game. I dont where they found that TS% stat, but i guess they have stats that can distort anything these days.....


You HAVE to look at volume to accurately discuss efficiency. Players who shoot a lot of FT's relative to FGA's are inherently more efficient players. Lebron gets to the line a lot compared to how many FGA's attempts he tries which is a very good thing for basketball teams: free points. If a player has a low volume of FTA's compared to a high FGA's that is not a good thing and kills scoring efficiency.

This is not a knock on Kobe who is an efficient scorer just Lebron is a more effiicient one. This also has NOTHING to do with quality of teammates. Whether you have good or bad teammates you want to be able to get to the line a lot per shotattempt


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: MVP discussion*

LeBron is the MVP this year. And he should have won it last year.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

I was talking about things I knew, then someone brings in TS% and say's lebron is a more effecient all-around player because of it. What am I supposed to say, I already said it doesnt make sense to me and I dont know how it works. I admitted that. 

I know that Lebron is more efficient in the paint than Kobe, but not anywhere else. He has attempted more 3's than Kobe this year overall yet has made less. That is not effeciency. He's attempted 60 more FT's than Kobe, while only making 23 more. Once again, thats not more effecient. He is more efficient in the paint or in the arc or wherever because of his size and brute force, but that is not a reflection of overall efficiency. That is just more in effeciency in ONE category, and TS% somehow takes that and dresses that up in some way that I dont know how. Someone said something about FT's. Using pure volume of FT's to dillute your inefficiency's in other categories does not sound like an efficient system of judging overall efficiency to me though. Especially whe looking @ the raw #'s tells me what I need to know anyways.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> I was talking about things I knew, then someone brings in TS% and say's lebron is a more effecient all-around player because of it. What am I supposed to say, I already said it doesnt make sense to me and I dont know how it works. I admitted that.


You said you don't understand it. Then you went on to say that even though the numbers say he's less efficient, Kobe Bryant is more efficient just because you think he is. It's ok to not understand something, but you also have to admit that those of us who do understand it actually know what we're talking about when we say Lebron has been more efficient this year.

Saying you don't understand it, and then turning around and saying it doesn't mean anything makes no sense. 



> I know that Lebron is more efficient in the paint than Kobe, but not anywhere else. He has attempted more 3's than Kobe this year overall yet has made less. That is not effeciency. He's attempted 60 more FT's than Kobe, while only making 23 more. Once again, thats not more effecient. He is more efficient in the paint or in the arc or wherever because of his size and brute force, but that is not a reflection of overall efficiency. That is just more in effeciency in ONE category, and TS% somehow takes that and dresses that up in some way that I dont know how. Someone said something about FT's. Using pure volume of FT's to dillute your inefficiency's in other categories does not sound like an efficient system of judging overall efficiency to me though. Especially whe looking @ the raw #'s tells me what I need to know anyways.


Fine, take FTs out of the equation completely.

Lebron is still scoring more efficiently from the floor than Kobe (.533 eFG% for Lebron, .509 eFG% for Kobe).

I know how bad you want Kobe to be more efficient, but he simply HASN'T been this year. No amount of trying to explain it away will change that, man. If you want to make an argument for Kobe for MVP over Lebron, efficiency is simply not the way to go.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*

BM: your analysis is simply assinine. If you look at raw totals Kobe has scored 10 more points then Lebron but has put up 59 more FGA to get those extra 10 points. That's why Lebron is a more efficient scorer. TS% includes FTA to make sure that a player like Lebron is not wasting FTA as well as FGA.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP discussion*

No doubt if the Cavs keep losing Kobe Bryant and Dwight Howards team continue to win, they indeed make the MVP worth a discussion. So only time will tell. Hopefully my Blazers give the Cavs another L on the season.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

Wtf is eFG%? I've never heard of half of these terms in my life. Since Kobe is a more efficient 3pt or FT shooter, you have to fall back on TS%, eFG%, and this other hypothetical BS just make a point that he somehow is not? 

All i'm saying is Kobe is a more complete player. LeBron is hella efficient in ONE aspect of the game compared to Kobe and that is finishing in the paint. Props to him, he makes it work, but lets not pretend like he's a more efficient scorer in any other aspect. That's all im saying. I said I still got Lebron slightly ahead of Kobe in my race, Kobe was just right on his tail and gaining a bit of ground lately. It's not a 'no contest', like some people are claiming. At least not in my book. Let's just put it like this tho. Kobe isn't as inefficient in one particular area as Lebron is in 3pt%..... Now tell me what your eFG%, TS says about that?

It is a FACT that Kobe is a better 3pt shooter & better FT shooter then Lebron. Spare me the bull****. I stand by the notion that it is easier to contain Lebron then it is Kobe becuase Kobster can beat you in too many ways. If Bron's shot is on then good luck and good night, but it's not impossible to catch him on a poor shooting night and then all you need is a guy who can stay in front of him and play him strait up and all you need is an anchor in the middle to protect just in case. Let Lebron get his but take away his outlets in Mo, Boobie, & West make Varejao and Z beat you. Kobe, you cant do that w/ so much becuase he is a more efficient shooter, particularly from the perimeter. If you take Bron out of the lane, you take away his game. He's not as versatile. If you take Kobe out the lane he can still bury you from the perimeter.... He's more efficient overall. He's not as dangerous as Bron around the rim, sure, but he is soo much more lethal from deep. Either way, i still got Lebron slightly ahead of Kobe for MVP right now... It's closer than it was two weeks ago though, believe that.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: MVP discussion*

i think lebron is the mvp no doubt, but jeff van gundy said it best last week. read my sig.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> Wtf is eFG%? I've never heard of half of these terms in my life. Since Kobe is a more efficient 3pt or FT shooter, you have to fall back on TS%, eFG%, and this other hypothetical BS just make a point that he somehow is not?


Oh my god. Seriously. 

Please, just take the time to learn what they are, and then decide whether they are useful. I don't know what to say to you because you're arguing from a position of ignorance. You've admitted that you don't understand what these things mean, yet you are arguing against them. Just do everyone (especially yourself) a favor and learn what these numbers mean in the context of the game.

The percentages you are using mean nothing. Things like eFG% and TS% are the real statistics that you want to use. If you don't trust us on it then take the time to learn it yourself. The fact that you call it hypothetical shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: MVP discussion*

brandname do you agree with jeff van gundy?


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP discussion*

You guys shouldn't argue about this stuff unless you think CP is the MVP anyway...Because he's ahead in all that stuff too


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



aznzen said:


> brandname do you agree with jeff van gundy?


Well Lebron hasn't been in many late game situations this year, so I can't really tell. Last year, I would have taken Lebron at the end of games, but Kobe is no slouch either. I would be thrilled to have either of them on my team, and I'd feel comfortable at the end of the game. Overall of course I'd rather have Lebron because I think he's the better player, and that's for all 48 minutes. But it's not like the gap is huge or anything.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Diable said:


> You guys shouldn't argue about this stuff unless you think CP is the MVP anyway...Because he's ahead in all that stuff too


I wasn't using it to make my case for MVP, just to refute some misconceptions that people seem to have on this board (Wade assists more often than Lebron, Kobe is more efficient, etc.). CP3 is having quite a ridiculous year though and if the Hornets end the season strong, he'll be in the running for #1.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> Wtf is eFG%? I've never heard of half of these terms in my life. Since Kobe is a more efficient 3pt or FT shooter, you have to fall back on TS%, eFG%, and this other hypothetical BS just make a point that he somehow is not?
> 
> All i'm saying is Kobe is a more complete player. LeBron is hella efficient in ONE aspect of the game compared to Kobe and that is finishing in the paint. Props to him, he makes it work, but lets not pretend like he's a more efficient scorer in any other aspect. That's all im saying. I said I still got Lebron slightly ahead of Kobe in my race, Kobe was just right on his tail and gaining a bit of ground lately. It's not a 'no contest', like some people are claiming. At least not in my book. Let's just put it like this tho. Kobe isn't as inefficient in one particular area as Lebron is in 3pt%..... Now tell me what your eFG%, TS says about that?
> 
> It is a FACT that Kobe is a better 3pt shooter & better FT shooter then Lebron. Spare me the bull****. I stand by the notion that it is easier to contain Lebron then it is Kobe becuase Kobster can beat you in too many ways. If Bron's shot is on then good luck and good night, but it's not impossible to catch him on a poor shooting night and then all you need is a guy who can stay in front of him and play him strait up and all you need is an anchor in the middle to protect just in case. Let Lebron get his but take away his outlets in Mo, Boobie, & West make Varejao and Z beat you. Kobe, you cant do that w/ so much becuase he is a more efficient shooter, particularly from the perimeter. If you take Bron out of the lane, you take away his game. He's not as versatile. If you take Kobe out the lane he can still bury you from the perimeter.... He's more efficient overall. He's not as dangerous as Bron around the rim, sure, but he is soo much more lethal from deep. Either way, i still got Lebron slightly ahead of Kobe for MVP right now... It's closer than it was two weeks ago though, believe that.


ROFL: you don't **** about what you're talking about so know you go back into defense mode; I was inly saying blah blah blah.

What TS% is telling you is that throughout the season Lebron needs less shots to score more points then Kobe. Lebron's ability to get to the line outways Kobe's jumper. And before you try to make up crap up about jumpshots somehow being more valuable then FT's ask the Boston Celtics who they had a harder time with and they openly admitted they had a harder time with Lebron.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP discussion*

This year, there is little to no separation between the top 5-6 guys. I really won't mind who wins this season because they all deserve it and it's easy to choose between the right and the right.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

*Re: MVP discussion*

Damn what the Celtics say, KG points in PG's faces and said that Pierce is the "real" Superman!


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*



Brandname said:


> Oh my god. Seriously.
> 
> Please, just take the time to learn what they are, and then decide whether they are useful. I don't know what to say to you because you're arguing from a position of ignorance. You've admitted that you don't understand what these things mean, yet you are arguing against them. Just do everyone (especially yourself) a favor and learn what these numbers mean in the context of the game.
> 
> The percentages you are using mean nothing. Things like eFG% and TS% are the real statistics that you want to use. If you don't trust us on it then take the time to learn it yourself. The fact that you call it hypothetical shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.


Lmao @ the statistics I use meaning nothing. They are the most fundamental statistics in the game. Anyone can look @ it relate understand the players performance. Sorry I dont keep up with all of these fancy new stats that pop up and change with every passing year. Most of them are flawed. I'll stick to the basics stats that I can see and goto NBA.com and verify for myself. A 3pt% is a 3pt% is a 3pt%. I dont need an eFG%. Ok, you said Lebron is better @ it, but wtf is it? I've never heard of a damn eFG in my life. I'm not arguing against it, i'm arguing FOR the fundalmental stats that VERY CLEARLY show Kobe is the more efficient player overall in terms of his versatility in scoring. It's simple. Your're complicating it with your complicated #'s... Not me. What ive put forward is clear as day.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*

^ Well then maybe you should look it up so you actually know what your talking about? EFG and TS have been around for a while, so i'm not really sure about your whole "Coming out of nowhere" argument, the fact is, as much as I hate to admit it, Lebron has been more efficient then Kobe, that is a fact backed by every single measurment there is, it's not a knock on Kobe, he's a very efficient player, more of just a testement of how good Lebron has become..


----------



## Prolific Scorer

*Re: MVP discussion*

:rant::rocket:















:djparty:


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

Ok, lol 3pt contest 1st to 100 your telling me you would pick Lebron win? No, no, no..... A FT shootout, Lebron will definately beat Kobe there. He is clearly a more efficient scorer. GTFOH. Im dying. :lol:

A damn eFG? haha, you hear something new everyday right? :rotf:


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*

:smart:According to Blue Magic and I'm using the simplest stats around the guy who has scored a grand total of 10 more points but has needed nearly 60 shots MORE to score those extra 10 points is clearly the more efficient player. By going with straight shooting stats Steve Kerr should be the most efficeint scorer in NBA history. You need to some basic :read:


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*



Pioneer10 said:


> :smart:According to Blue Magic and I'm using the simplest stats around the guy who has scored a grand total of 10 more points but has needed nearly 60 shots MORE to score those extra 10 points is clearly the more efficient player. By going with straight shooting stats Steve Kerr should be the most efficeint scorer in NBA history. You need to some basic :read:


Look @ 3pt% / FT% / AST-TO ratio / FG%

*Kobe leads 3pt%/FT% each by a good margin

Lebron has like a .3 lead in AST-TO ratio and a 2% lead in overall FG%....*

Overall, Kobe is a more efficient player on the whole going by the point differential in these #'s. Do the knowledge. It's basic.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

So like I said, Lebron is more efficient in ONE aspect of the game in terms of scoring, and that is scoring in the paint. You cant dilute that and carry that over into 3pt% and FT% and then claim that he is more efficient overall in all the fields. He has a slight edge in overall FG% because he is a better finisher around the rim where he gets most of his points. But FT%/3pt% he is less efficient. Sidestep it all you want, but thats what the #'s im looking at tell me.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP discussion*

the essence of this is the number of possession you use versus the total number of points you score.Lebron is more efficient because he's scoring more relative to the number of times he takes a shot.I can't make it any simpler than that and I don't care if you fail to comprehend it.It's not so complicated to see that kobe averages more field goal attempts per game while scoring less is it?


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> Look @ 3pt% / FT% / AST-TO ratio / FG%
> 
> *Kobe leads 3pt%/FT% each by a good margin
> 
> Lebron has like a .3 lead in AST-TO ratio and a 2% lead in overall FG%....*
> 
> Overall, Kobe is a more efficient player on the whole going by the point differential in these #'s. Do the knowledge. It's basic.


:rofl:

Haha you're still convincing yourself that a guy who needs 60 more shots to get 10 more points is a more of an efficient scorer. You sir are the dunce of BBF.com. The guy who believes in the Steve Kerr model of efficiency


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*



> Haha you're still convincing yourself that a guy who needs 60 more shots to get 10 more points is a more of an efficient scorer. You sir are the dunce of BBF.com. The guy who believes in the Steve Kerr model of efficiency


No im sayin being more efficient in ONE category doesnt make an overall more efficient player. That TS bull**** has all of you fooled. Lebron is superior in ONE category. But LBJ's weakness' > Kobe's weakness'. Period. Shooting more volume of FT's and therefore scoring more points isnt the same thing as being a more efficient FT shooter or a more efficient shooter in general. When your FT% is 78 and the next guys % is 86, I look @ the guy shooting 86% as a 'more efficient' FT shooter. I look @ the guy shooting 36% from 3 as a 'more efficient' 3pt shooter as opposed to the guy shooting 29%. And when the overall difference in FG% is 0.021 or 2.1%, I look @ all of that together and figure who is more efficient in each particular category. Ok, Lebron is pretty efficient when he's attcking the basket, he wins there. But Lebron isn't even that close in the other two.... Kobe is pretty significantly more efficient in 3pt shooting and in FT shooting %. But then again, he's still shooting above 40%+ from within the 3pt line.... Now Lebron is Great within the 3pt line, and namely within the paint, but not nearly as efficient in the other two areas of the game. He's mastered one art, but yet he's still raw in the others when compared to Kobe. Kobe is the more complete player overall, and is more efficient in more aspects of the game. Im sorry that you cant see this w/ your eFG statistics. I feel sorry that you think LBJ has a more complete game. Im not an LBJ hater, just realist.


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: MVP discussion*



Diable said:


> You guys shouldn't argue about this stuff unless you think CP is the MVP anyway...Because he's ahead in all that stuff too


Ding Ding Ding!

People just refuse to give Paul the attention he deserves.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

CP3's team isn't considered top tier tho..... Kobe would have multiple MVP's and LBJ would probably have one too by now if team status wasnt important. Unfortunately for Paul, he's on what most view as a second rate team right now. That can change, and i love CP3's dont get it wrong, but both LBJ and Kobe had to hear the team record rap while they watched other, perhaps less deserving candidates win the award... CP3 gets plenty of attention though. If anyone needs more recognition for the award, it's Dwight Howard, but I just dont see him winning the award before LBJ does..... After Bron gets one we'll probably see Paul or Dwight get one in between


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> No im sayin being more efficient in ONE category doesnt make an overall more efficient player. That TS bull**** has all of you fooled. Lebron is superior in ONE category. But LBJ's weakness' > Kobe's weakness'. Period. Shooting more volume of FT's and therefore scoring more points isnt the same thing as being a more efficient FT shooter or a more efficient shooter in general. When your FT% is 78 and the next guys % is 86, I look @ the guy shooting 86% as a 'more efficient' FT shooter. I look @ the guy shooting 36% from 3 as a 'more efficient' 3pt shooter as opposed to the guy shooting 29%. And when the overall difference in FG% is 0.021 or 2.1%, I look @ all of that together and figure who is more efficient in each particular category. Ok, Lebron is pretty efficient when he's attcking the basket, he wins there. But Lebron isn't even that close in the other two.... Kobe is pretty significantly more efficient in 3pt shooting and in FT shooting %. But then again, he's still shooting above 40%+ from within the 3pt line.... Now Lebron is Great within the 3pt line, and namely within the paint, but not nearly as efficient in the other two areas of the game. He's mastered one art, but yet he's still raw in the others when compared to Kobe. Kobe is the more complete player overall, and is more efficient in more aspects of the game. Im sorry that you cant see this w/ your eFG statistics. I feel sorry that you think LBJ has a more complete game. Im not an LBJ hater, just realist.


:rofl:

I didn't even mention TS% in my last 2 posts or who has a more complete game whatever that means. Again player A scores nearly as much as player B but takes significantly less shots: Player A is inherently more efficient. By your logic: a player score 20 points by 8-12 (missing 4 3pointers) and hitting 4-6 FT's (missingis less efficient then a player who scores 20 points by shooting 6-20 (hitting 6 3ptrs) and hitting 2-2 FT's. That makes absolutely no sense and is moronic (the second player shot a 100% from the 3pt line and FT line)


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP discussion*

Stats are for nerds. The MVP Awards is washed up, and The fact is Kobe Bryant played LeBron as well as anyone can defensively and played LeBron to a standstill offensively. Plus Kobe did it all with a dislocated finger while LeBron was 100 percent healthy. Kobe > LeBron. Good night kids, one day maybe LeBron will man up like Kobe, but as of now no he's not at that level. Only guy in the league I put at Kobes tenacity is Kevin Garnett.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

No because player 'B' isn't as one dimensional as player 'A'. Player 'B' wouldn't miss every single 2pt FG he attempts, his game is just more balanced as opposed to being 'great' in ONE area and inconsistent as hell in others.... He's just pretty good and consistent at everything. No real major flaws. And even though he doesnt attempt as many FT's as player 'A', player 'B' makes more. You forgot about that one.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*



23AJ said:


> Stats are for nerds. The MVP Awards is washed up, and The fact is Kobe Bryant played LeBron as well as anyone can defensively and played LeBron to a standstill offensively. Plus Kobe did it all with a dislocated finger while LeBron was 100 percent healthy. Kobe > LeBron. Good night kids, one day maybe LeBron will man up like Kobe, but as of now no he's not at that level. Only guy in the league I put at Kobes tenacity is Kevin Garnett.


:rofl:

So this game never happened?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200801270LAL.html


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> No because player 'B' isn't as one dimensional as player 'A'. Player 'B' wouldn't miss every single 2pt FG he attempts, his game is just more balanced as opposed to being 'great' in ONE area and inconsistent as hell in others.... He's just pretty good and consistent at everything. No real major flaws. And even though he doesnt attempt as many FT's as player 'A', player 'B' makes more. You forgot about that one.


You still don't get it: Tim Duncan doesn't have a "balanced game" in terms of 3 pointers or FT percentage. Magic Johnson didn't have a "balanced" game in terms 3 point shooitng. Yet both are/were very efficient scorers.

I have no problem with saying Kobe is a better shooter then Lebron: that does not equal scoring efficiency. Two completely different things. In the end you almost always want the more efficient scorer


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP discussion*



Pioneer10 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> So this game never happened?
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200801270LAL.html


You don't get it. My previous post sums up my thoughts on why I take Kobe every time in a match up against James. Kobe will play through intense pain, Lebron not so much. Tenacity nobody got it like Kobe, maybe KG that's it. LeBron isn't on their level in spirt and tenacity. He's close but so are a lot of guys. Kobe took on the challenge last night, and will take it on every night, no questions asked. LeBron not so much, Kobe defense > LeBron defense. Later sucker!


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*



23AJ said:


> You don't get it. My previous post sums up my thoughts on why I take Kobe every time in a match up against James. Kobe will play through intense pain, Lebron not so much. Tenacity nobody got it like Kobe, maybe KG that's it. LeBron isn't on their level in spirt and tenacity. He's close but so are a lot of guys. Kobe took on the challenge last night, and will take it on every night, no questions asked. LeBron not so much, Kobe defense > LeBron defense. Later sucker!


"Later Sucker": you're ability with words inspires me :lol:

I guess that tenacity just wasn't enough the last game which you didn't bother commenting on or is Kobe turning into Chuck Norris now. He has to bleed to bring it on


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

I said Kobe is more efficient in more aspects of the game. That is what im sticking to because that is how I interpret the #'s. He's the more complete player in terms of his overall repetoir. More efficient at more different things, not just 1 area. Like AJ said tho, forget the BS stats, I know what I see!


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP discussion*



Pioneer10 said:


> "Later Sucker": you're ability with words inspires me :lol:
> 
> I guess that tenacity just wasn't enough the last game which you didn't bother commenting on or is Kobe turning into Chuck Norris now. He has to bleed to bring it on


Calm down tough guy. Nobody here thinks your idol LeBron isn't a great player. He's just not as good as Kobe. You don't understand how good Kobe is. Your to wrapped up into the LeBron James marketing hype machine. Everything LeBron does gets overrated. Soon you will understand, when the Magic or Celtics knock out the Cavs in the playoffs. Just in case people have forgotten this is what the King does in the FINALS.


----------



## Adam

*Re: MVP discussion*

60% of Kobe's shots are jumpshots. That's just too much for my liking. At this point, LeBron is the younger, fresher, more dominant player and he doesn't settle whereas Kobe does a little too much.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP discussion*

One thing to keep in mind. When LBJ shot his air ball, and actually he's done it a lot in his career, not just in the finals. His teammates go out to support him. Just this season a few games ago when Ben Wallace shot an air ball in a game, LeBron was sitting on the benching mocking and laughing at Ben Wallace. But yeah he's such a good buddy teammate. Ahemm...


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP discussion*

It's strange how people can be silent for months and then one day they come around making claims that they've not made in the previous time.Why is that?Perhaps it's because there has been nothing upon which to base those claims for the last three months...And now suddenly there is I guess...But I just can't figure out what that is.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



23AJ said:


> One thing to keep in mind. When LBJ shot his air ball, and actually he's done it a lot in his career, not just in the finals. His teammates go out to support him. Just this season a few games ago when Ben Wallace shot an air ball in a game, LeBron was sitting on the benching mocking and laughing at Ben Wallace. But yeah he's such a good buddy teammate. Ahemm...


I can tell Lebron's season is just eating at your soul.

God I love this game.


----------



## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*

it's one thing to argue who can be more consistently efficient against varied defenses (and it would be preferable to have some evidence beyond saying so or referencing stats across fg%, 3p% and ft%). it's another thing to argue who HAS BEEN more efficient within a season. lebron has obviously been more efficient this season, and in the context of an mvp discussion, that's obviously more important than asking who is harder overall to stop (not that there's a clear answer there either). 

the ONLY thing kobe can point to statistically this season is that overall his TEAM is the most efficient offensively (actually recently passing the cavs), and kobe deserves some of the credit for his role in facilitating the lakers overall offensive efficiency. i don't think it's an insignificant consideration, but it's not enough to put him on par with lebron this year.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



kflo said:


> it's one thing to argue who can be more consistently efficient against varied defenses (and it would be preferable to have some evidence beyond saying so or referencing stats across fg%, 3p% and ft%). it's another thing to argue who HAS BEEN more efficient within a season. lebron has obviously been more efficient this season, and in the context of an mvp discussion, that's obviously more important than asking who is harder overall to stop (not that there's a clear answer there either).
> 
> the ONLY thing kobe can point to statistically this season is that overall his TEAM is the most efficient offensively (actually recently passing the cavs), and kobe deserves some of the credit for his role in facilitating the lakers overall offensive efficiency. i don't think it's an insignificant consideration, but it's not enough to put him on par with lebron this year.


And even trying to use that argument would be dubious because the drop in offensive efficiency for the Cavs coincided with the loss of two of their 4 most important offensive players. When your frontcourt has to start Anderson Varejao and Ben Wallace, it's hard to expect a team to maintain any semblance of a strong offensive efficiency.


----------



## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*

i'm always in favor of looking at things in context. and yes, it'll be hard for the team, and it'll be hard for lebron, to maintain their overall offensive efficiency with changing personnel. when the cavs efficiency was better than the lakers, there was simply no argument for kobe. if the lakers ultimately are much higher, then it does open a line of reasoning. 

kobe's eFG% is a career high this year. he's getting to the line alot less though, and i think that's at least in part due to his discipline within the triangle and his role in the context of his team. that's at least an argument with some context as to his performance. at this point, it's insignificant though. not an insignificant consideration, but an insignificant disparity between the 2.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: MVP discussion*



23AJ said:


> Calm down tough guy. Nobody here thinks your idol LeBron isn't a great player. He's just not as good as Kobe. You don't understand how good Kobe is. Your to wrapped up into the LeBron James marketing hype machine. Everything LeBron does gets overrated. Soon you will understand, when the Magic or Celtics knock out the Cavs in the playoffs. Just in case people have forgotten this is what the King does in the FINALS.


Fan of the NBA right? lol
For starters, Lebron has played a better season then Kobe thus far. If the Cavs win that game people would be starting up different threads. Bottom line is, even if Kobe was injured, both him and Lebron had a sub-par game for their standards, and when it counted the most we took advantage of their size+health issues. That game did not give much ammunition for Kobe/Lebron fans to use vs. each other.
In addition, Lebrons defense on Kobe aside from the behind the back move was good. Kobe was just hitting shots over him, it's Kobe Bryant, he is known for making tough shots like that rainbow fade-away. That is what good defense is about. Making your opponent take tough shots from spots on the floor they are not comfortable with.
Overall that game to me proved that a healthy Cavs team is a championship contender team. They were missing one of their best rebounders plus D.West who is having a very efficient career season thus far.
Sure we are missing players as well, that is why I mentioned in the game thread that, both teams healthy would be an amazing game to watch. Hopefully next month it happens.


----------



## croco

*Re: MVP discussion*

Blue Magic, does the following definition make sense or not ?



> Effective Field Goal Percentage; the formula is (FG + 0.5 * 3P) / FGA. This statistic adjusts for the fact that a 3-point field goal is worth one more point than a 2-point field goal.
> 
> For example, suppose Player A goes 4 for 10 with 2 threes, while Player B goes 5 for 10 with 0 threes. Each player would have 10 points from field goals, and thus would have the same effective field goal percentage (50%).


You decide.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

You guys are saying that the way Lebron scores his overall 'mass' of points is more efficient than the way Kobe scores his mass. I'm saying that Kobe is more efficient in MORE particular aspects of the game. That's where we digress.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

Neither are as good as this guy though.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: MVP discussion*



23AJ said:


> Calm down tough guy. Nobody here thinks your idol LeBron isn't a great player. He's just not as good as Kobe. You don't understand how good Kobe is. Your to wrapped up into the LeBron James marketing hype machine. Everything LeBron does gets overrated. Soon you will understand, when the Magic or Celtics knock out the Cavs in the playoffs. Just in case people have forgotten this is what the King does in the FINALS.


What you said can be flipped around and be true of Kobe as well. Nobody thinks Kobe isn't a great player, they just think LeBron is better.

As for the Finals...that is the past. We are talking about now. But if you really want to use that, then don't forget Kobe's struggles in his past 2 finals.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: MVP discussion*



23AJ said:


> One thing to keep in mind. When LBJ shot his air ball, and actually he's done it a lot in his career, not just in the finals. His teammates go out to support him. Just this season a few games ago when Ben Wallace shot an air ball in a game, LeBron was sitting on the benching mocking and laughing at Ben Wallace. But yeah he's such a good buddy teammate. Ahemm...


Good point. Especially since Kobe has always been such a great teammate.


----------



## dwade3

*Re: MVP discussion*

My Fav: Dwyane Wade - for obvious homer reasons and suprisingly good team record.
My Dark Horse: Chauncy Billups........


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: MVP discussion*

I think it's ironic someone is defending Kobe Bryant by saying LeBron James is a bad teammate

....lol


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

Melo would win it before Chauncey. IMO, in order for that team to be 'great' Melo is gonna have to maximize his potential and if he does that consistently he would be the best player on that team.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> You guys are saying that the way Lebron scores his overall 'mass' of points is more efficient than the way Kobe scores his mass. I'm saying that Kobe is more efficient in MORE particular aspects of the game. That's where we digress.


Lebron is more efficient than Kobe overall. That's the important measure of efficiency. Trying to count the 'number of areas' he's more efficient in just makes no sense.


----------



## Affirmative Action

*Re: MVP discussion*

Kobe can be much more efficient than Lebron. Only problem with Kobe is when he goes to a chucking mode which hurts his overall efficiency, its more of a mental thing than a lack or inferior skill. Lebron struggles from both the FT line and beyond the arc. He has a non existent mid range for a "Superstar/Best in the league/future GOAT" player. That has nothing to do with mentality. Dude just doesnt have "IT" at this point.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Affirmative Action said:


> Kobe can be much more efficient than Lebron. Only problem with Kobe is when he goes to a chucking mode which hurts his overall efficiency, its more of a mental thing than a lack or inferior skill. Lebron struggles from both the FT line and beyond the arc. He has a non existent mid range for a "Superstar/Best in the league/future GOAT" player. That has nothing to do with mentality. Dude just doesnt have "IT" at this point.


lol, I know you love Kobe a lot, but saying Lebron doesn't have 'IT' is going to be a tough sell.


----------



## Affirmative Action

*Re: MVP discussion*



Brandname said:


> lol, I know you love Kobe a lot, but saying Lebron doesn't have 'IT' is going to be a tough sell.


Thats an overstatement. I dont LOVE Kobe but I like him. I dont like all the hype surrounding Lebron but im not going to reach and imply he does'nt have "IT" either.


OK, ill make it short. What Im trying to say is Lebron is overrated. Im not a big fan of players with limited offensive abilities, there I said it.


----------



## Affirmative Action

*Re: MVP discussion*

FYI. Kobe doesnt have it at this point either. He's a great player who lets his ego overtake his judgement. I have lost faith in him after game 7 in the 2006 playoffs. That could've been his defining moment, but instead he threw the game away. IMO, two of the absolute best player that has a consistent killer instinct are Chris Paul and Dwyane Wade. If you give Chris Paul the type of role players Kobe has, Im going on a limb and say that they are going to win the championship this year. Same with Wade.


----------



## Affirmative Action

*Re: MVP discussion*



> *Former NBA great Rick Barry had some pointed comments for LeBron James *during an interview with Comcast SportsNet Bay Area that will air on Wednesday night.
> 
> *"He's got major flaws in his game," Barry said. "He's six years into the NBA. How can a man six years into the NBA with his talent have a major flaw in his shot? *How can he not use screens effectively? . . I watch the game very carefully - he doesn't use screens effectively and this is not LeBron's fault. It's the fault of the people who are teaching him. . . . There is no doubt in my mind that LeBron, if shown these things would do them, because he wants to be a great player, he wants to win a championship. *As great as he is, he should be better."*


Rick Barry is right on the money.


----------



## hendrix2430

*Re: MVP discussion*



Affirmative Action said:


> Kobe can be much more efficient than Lebron. Only problem with Kobe is when he goes to a chucking mode which hurts his overall efficiency, its more of a mental thing than a lack or inferior skill. Lebron struggles from both the FT line and beyond the arc. He has a non existent mid range for a "Superstar/Best in the league/future GOAT" player. That has nothing to do with mentality. Dude just doesnt have "IT" at this point.


Lol, you'd be a great tv analyst. **** that makes you go "whaaa?"


----------



## hendrix2430

*Re: MVP discussion*



Affirmative Action said:


> Thats an overstatement. I dont LOVE Kobe but I like him. I dont like all the hype surrounding Lebron but im not going to reach and imply he does'nt have "IT" either.
> 
> 
> OK, ill make it short. *What Im trying to say is Lebron is overrated. Im not a big fan of players with limited offensive abilities, there I said it.*


wow


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

Um, im confused. Which one are saying doesn't have 'it', Bron or Kobe?

Either way, Lebron shoots more 3's than Kobe, yet makes less. He must be a 'chucker' too in your opinion, correct? 

All I know is, Lebron probably shoots in the 60% range within the arc and in the paint. Kobe only shoots somewhere in the 50% range in this area. I would assume this is because Kobe shoots more mid-range jumpers as opposed to Bron who is the best finisher in the league who gets most of his points at the rim. If Lebron just got all of his points at the rim instead of going into chucking mode he could easily have a much better FG% in the 55%+ range. Being supremely efficient in ONE area of the game though, doesnt make you an overall more complete or efficient player in every other aspect of the game. Kobe is factually more efficient in every other area offensively by a decent bit. That's what i've been saying. LeBron like's to chuck too, he's just not as good @ as Kobe is. Yes, Kobe is more efficient in every other area. Common sense points to it, I dont need to blindly follow TS% or any other fluke system.


----------



## Affirmative Action

*Re: MVP discussion*



hendrix2430 said:


> Lol, you'd be a great tv analyst. **** that makes you go "whaaa?"


Great counter argument genius. Oh wait, you're just another Lebron fan hurting because of the undeniable fact that Lebron cant shoot, even pointed by, wait, yes, that's right, actual NBA Players. Please read Rick Barry's comments above. NEXT!


----------



## croco

*Re: MVP discussion*

Skills are skills because they help you to improve your efficiency. If one particular skill is great enough, let's say like Lebron's ability to penetrate, it offsets other areas where he is not as skilled. If you have a skill that ranks 10/10, you need to be skilled enough to not make other teams take away that particular skill exclusively. Lebron is able to do that and then some.

The goal is not to assemble as many skills as possible because that can lead to trust your inferior skills at times when you should go to your biggest strength. You can be more efficient than someone else without looking better or having more sophisticated skills in the majority of relevant areas. The biggest skill is still to make the other team adjust to you and no player offers more problems for other teams than Lebron right now. 

Kobe is not more efficient, he has more skills that rank higher compared to Lebron. However as stated above, having more skills should not be confused with every skill making you a more efficient player. Being skilled enables you to capitalize on your biggest strength(s), just like being the best pure athlete in the NBA allows you to use your skills accordingly. Slightly exaggerated, big men have never been amongst the most skilled players, yet they are more effective because of their superior physical ability (skill). Lebron's physical skills are superior to anyone else which gives him advantage to anyone else and he combines those attributes with enough basketball skills to make him the most efficient basketball player.


----------



## Affirmative Action

*Re: MVP discussion*

People should'nt confuse astonishing physique with fundamental basketball skills. Lebron has one of the most freakish anatomy of any NBA player but that does'nt translate into having a great physical basketball skill. That's why he shoots 30% beyond 15 feet.


----------



## hendrix2430

*Re: MVP discussion*



Affirmative Action said:


> Great counter argument genius. Oh wait, you're just another Lebron fan hurting because of the undeniable fact that Lebron cant shoot, even pointed by, wait, yes, that's right, actual NBA Players. Please read Rick Barry's comments above. NEXT!


Uh? Where was the counter _argument_? 

For your info, if you believe I'm a "Lebron fan", you're sadly mistaken. I found something you could put in your avatar, by the way. Pass it around.


----------



## Affirmative Action

*Re: MVP discussion*

Great stuff. I love how people who cant back up their argument resort to that.


----------



## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> Um, im confused. Which one are saying doesn't have 'it', Bron or Kobe?
> 
> Either way, Lebron shoots more 3's than Kobe, yet makes less. He must be a 'chucker' too in your opinion, correct?
> 
> All I know is, Lebron probably shoots in the 60% range within the arc and in the paint. Kobe only shoots somewhere in the 50% range in this area. I would assume this is because Kobe shoots more mid-range jumpers as opposed to Bron who is the best finisher in the league who gets most of his points at the rim. If Lebron just got all of his points at the rim instead of going into chucking mode he could easily have a much better FG% in the 55%+ range. Being supremely efficient in ONE area of the game though, doesnt make you an overall more complete or efficient player in every other aspect of the game. Kobe is factually more efficient in every other area offensively by a decent bit. That's what i've been saying. LeBron like's to chuck too, he's just not as good @ as Kobe is. Yes, Kobe is more efficient in every other area. Common sense points to it, I dont need to blindly follow TS% or any other fluke system.


this season, ONE (of many) area lebron's been more efficient than kobe has been SCORING. period. that is factual.


----------



## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*



Affirmative Action said:


> People should'nt confuse astonishing physique with fundamental basketball skills. Lebron has one of the most freakish anatomy of any NBA player but that does'nt translate into having a great physical basketball skill. That's why he shoots 30% beyond 15 feet.


this is an argument that was consistently used against shaq as well. but it really doesn't address the question of how effective overall are they as a player on the court.


----------



## Affirmative Action

*Re: MVP discussion*



kflo said:


> this is an argument that was consistently used against shaq as well. but it really doesn't address the question of how effective overall are they as a player on the court.


Huge difference. Shaq plays and scores majority of his points in the post, He's a power player with an undying knack to dominate at the paint, really if you're a Center, aside from rebounding and blocking/altering shots, thats all that is expected from you. Lebron on the other hand has all the tangibles of a perimeter player, except do one thing what is expected from him, which is score efficeintly from the perimeter. Shaq had a weakness, true. You bring him to the FT line. But thats why he had Kobe. Lebron has to work on his game, since he has no other Superstar player besides him. Lakers exploited him Monday night,forcing him to take those jumpers and what you saw was King James being utterly helpless and ineffective.


I could'nt understand how people would call Lebron as the "Ultimate and complete player" when thats obviously not the case. A bit OT, but In terms of complete and efficiency, Chris Paul is so underrated nowadays, its not even funny.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*

Chris Paul really isn't that underrated, he's easily the best point in the league, and anyone that isn't an idiot knows that at worst, he's a top five player.


----------



## Affirmative Action

*Re: MVP discussion*

He is underrated. The fact that people talk about the Top 3 MVP candidate (Wade,Lebron,Kobe) reassures that.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: MVP discussion*

part of playing basketball is knowing how to take good shots. the 3 point shot is a low percentage shot.

LeBron has made 3 less 3 pointers and attempted 25 more 3 pointers than Bryant has this season, yet LeBron STILL has a higher FG%

kobe has taken 59 more FGA's than LeBron, yet only made 11 more than LeBron.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Affirmative Action said:


> I could'nt understand how people would call Lebron as the "Ultimate and complete player" when thats obviously not the case.


That's a strawman argument. I don't see anybody here calling Lebron the "Ultimate and complete player". A lot of people just think he's the best in the league. If being able to do a variety of things effectively were what made someone the best, then Shaq would never have been the best player in the league. But he was the best because he was so dominant.

Honestly it seems like a few people in this thread were gonna choose Kobe regardless of what kind of seasons Lebron/Kobe/Wade/CP3/Dwight/etc have. And they're just manufacturing reasons that he deserves the MVP the most right now. That's what it looks like to me anyway.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*



Brandname said:


> That's a strawman argument. I don't see anybody here calling Lebron the "Ultimate and complete player". A lot of people just think he's the best in the league. If being able to do a variety of things effectively were what made someone the best, then Shaq would never have been the best player in the league. But he was the best because he was so dominant.
> 
> Honestly it seems like a few people in this thread were gonna choose Kobe regardless of what kind of seasons Lebron/Kobe/Wade/CP3/Dwight/etc have. And they're just manufacturing reasons that he deserves the MVP the most right now. That's what it looks like to me anyway.


Wtf? I've been saying since I bumped the thread that Lebron is ahead right now....

I just refuse to agree that he is a more efficient overall player. More efficient in a single area doesnt carry over and make you more efficient in each individual area of the game. I refuse.


----------



## Affirmative Action

*Re: MVP discussion*



Brandname said:


> That's a strawman argument. I don't see anybody here calling Lebron the "Ultimate and complete player"..


Basketball opinions are not limited _"here"_ in Baskeballforum.com. Thats a general statement from some Lebron fans/homers from other sites, radio stations etc...





Brandname said:


> Honestly it seems like a few people in this thread were gonna choose Kobe regardless of what kind of seasons Lebron/Kobe/Wade/CP3/Dwight/etc have. And they're just manufacturing reasons that he deserves the MVP the most right now. That's what it looks like to me anyway.


To me its the other way around. I think Kobe is on pace to have a much better winning record than Lebron's Cavs. And Kobe is maintaining the same numbers from his MVP season but with a better % accross the boards. But people are finding all kinds of excuses on why he doesnt deserve it. IMO, the only valid reason why he's not going to win it is Lebron, and I dont see any problem with that. I just dont like it when people dub Lebron exclusively and consensually as the best player in the game as if Wade, Kobe and Chris Paul are all playing under a lower tier than him.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*



Affirmative Action said:


> He is underrated. The fact that people talk about the Top 3 MVP candidate (Wade,Lebron,Kobe) reassures that.


With the way that the MVP is formatted, Wade is not a top three MVP canidate, (As stupid as it is, it's true.) it's more like Lebron/Kobe/Howard/Paul/Wade. One of the main reasons that Paul is so far back is because his team is underachieving, some people were picking them over the Lakers in the pre seaons, and many though that they would have the best record in the West, that is clearly not the case. Is it Chris Paul's fault? Probobly not, Tyson has regressed and that team is incredibly thin, but the expectations for the MVP this year are such that your team has to be elite, and there are only four elite teams in the league right now, and the Hornets just arn't one of them. 

Oh well, another All NBA First team is an ok consolation prize.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> I just refuse to agree that he is a more efficient overall player. More efficient in a single area doesnt carry over and make you more efficient in each individual area of the game. I refuse.


You don't have to believe it. Hell some people don't believe in evolution. People are just wrong sometimes.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> Wtf? I've been saying since I bumped the thread that Lebron is ahead right now....
> 
> I just refuse to agree that he is a more efficient overall player. More efficient in a single area doesnt carry over and make you more efficient in each individual area of the game. I refuse.


Ok sweet, you can refuse it all you want but the fact is Lebron is a more efficient basketball player then Kobe Bryant, that's just the truth and is evidenced by every advanced stat out there, complain all you want but eventually your just going to have to accept it.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

I love how the Lebron stans like to generalize efficiency. Go down the list bro. Tell me in what specific categories is Lebrons more efficient. Run along, now...


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*

We have been, for atleast the last three pages, but in case you missed all of that i'll point out a few. FG%, TS%, and EFG% and PER ( A complete offensive measurment.)

Run along now.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> I love how the Lebron stans like to generalize efficiency. Go down the list bro. Tell me in what specific categories is Lebrons more efficient. Run along, now...


 

wow...look at the avatars of the guys who are disagreeing with you.Once I was wrong...It was back in 1997.I'm not ashamed to admit that it happened


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*



Diable said:


> wow...look at the avatars of the guys who are disagreeing with you.Once I was wrong...It was back in 1997.I'm not ashamed to admit that it happened


I guess thats the beauty of a message board. Anyway he might be the only one who doesn't have Lebron at the top of their list except for "The fan of the game".


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

:lol:

Lebron is at the top of top of my list. Lol @ you bringing up eFG TS and all that other crap. Those aren't raw stats, those are concoctions of #'s manipulated together to represent something else... You cant go into a game and make a eFG, alright.... It's just not possible. It's not a statistical category. It's hypothetical. Like I thought, all you got is the FG%


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*

Oh, I guess my bad? I thought you had someone else up there for some reason. And by the way, TS is by far the best indacator of how efficient you are at shooting the basketball, the fact is FG% and all of those raw stats sort of blow..


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: MVP discussion*

ANY stat can be manipulated ANY way to show a bias one way or the other. 

Regardless, CP3 will be the MVP at years end. He's having another stellar night currently at 22/8/8 with 3 minutes left. He's doing this vs Devin Harris to boot.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*

^ His team won't be good enough to get it, and even if it was i'm still not sold on him over Bron, he's just too mediocore defensivly.

Not to say that he isn't a lock for the First Team or that he won't eventually get an MVP or two.


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: MVP discussion*

He finished 29/9/8 on 11-18FG, with 3 'mediocre' steals.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

CP3 is a beast


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP discussion*

really wasn't a great game for cp.He can't get assists when he's playing with guys who can't score.Melvin Ely simultaneously had a very good game and demonstrated exactly why he hardly plays for them.One of Paul's turnovers should have been a dunk,but he stopped to watch the ball bounce right past him underneath the hoop...he didn't run the play right about four times,which was what almost cost them the pacers game too...Nets left him wide open under the basket the last four minutes of the game so they could force CP to give up the ball and all he did was get his shot blocked...All of which is fine if you're the next to last guy off the bench,but it really sucks when you're forced to start a guy.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

*Re: MVP discussion*



VanillaPrice said:


> I guess thats the beauty of a message board. Anyway he might be the only one who doesn't have Lebron at the top of their list except for* "The fan of the game"*.


Nice :lol:


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> :lol:
> 
> Lebron is at the top of top of my list. Lol @ you bringing up eFG TS and all that other crap. Those aren't raw stats, those are concoctions of #'s manipulated together to represent something else... You cant go into a game and make a eFG, alright.... It's just not possible. It's not a statistical category. It's hypothetical. Like I thought, all you got is the FG%


Seriously. Everything you just said was completely wrong. Just stop.


----------



## Affirmative Action

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> CP3 is a beast


Yes he is.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*

Kobe just had another triple-double. And Andrew Bynum had 42 points and 15 rebounds. :yay:

Clearly, this means Kobe = MVP.

:biggrin:

But on a serious note, I don't know why this is being discussed this much. Right now, you would be a fool to say LeBron isn't the MVP. Whether or not he's the best player is an entirely different question, in my opinion. But he's the MVP as of THIS MOMENT - no ifs, ands or buts about it.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

*Re: MVP discussion*



Basel said:


> Kobe just had another triple-double. And Andrew Bynum had 42 points and 15 rebounds. :yay:


Who were you playing..? :uhoh:


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*



NewAgeBaller said:


> Who were you playing..? :uhoh:


:biggrin:

Still impressive.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

*Re: MVP discussion*

I actually didn't know, but yea I see now.. :biggrin:

Still impressive. Bynum isn't exactly a volume scorer though, so I assume he was just getting whatever he wanted inside all night..


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: MVP discussion*



NewAgeBaller said:


> Who were you playing..? :uhoh:


The Clippers without Camby, Randolph, or Kaman. Thus, their starting C was 6'9 Brian Skinner :lol:

Although, Bynum did look like a beast tonight, I'll wait to see how he does against an actual center.


----------



## SamTheMan67

*Re: MVP discussion*

andrew BYNUM ON MY FANTASY TEAM PLEASE PLAY THE CLIPPERS EVERYNIGHT K THX!!! GO LAKERS (when not facing cavs)


----------



## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> :lol:
> 
> Lebron is at the top of top of my list. Lol @ you bringing up eFG TS and all that other crap. Those aren't raw stats, those are concoctions of #'s manipulated together to represent something else... You cant go into a game and make a eFG, alright.... It's just not possible. It's not a statistical category. It's hypothetical. Like I thought, all you got is the FG%


you continue to illustrate both a lack of understanding and a lack of willingness to learn. eFG% and TS% are not hypotheticals. that's a ridiculous characterization. 

do you understand that the more points you score per scoring opportunity, the better you'll do? is that concept beyond your grasp? that's what ts% measures. is it a hypothetical to score 25 points on 15 opportunities? is it a hypothetical to score 25 points on 20 opportunities? can you assess which was more efficient? you can scream that it's not a statistical category, but you'll still be wrong. eFG% is one of the simpler and more basic stats to comprehend, but you're continuing to argue it's not a real stat. do you realize how foolish that is? seriously. no offense.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*

And Blue Magic, we wouldn't be so hard on you about this if you weren't being so bullheaded about it. 

You can't admit you don't understand something and then go on a rant about exactly what you don't understand. 

Personally, I WANT you to learn about this stuff. I want you to understand exactly what it means to be efficient in basketball. The more people who understand these kinds of things, the better our discussions are going to be able to be. You're resisting because these stats don't arrive to the conclusions that you want them to arrive at, but I swear if you take the time to learn and understand you won't regret it. 

It's all about thinking about what's effective in the context of a basketball game. A stat that you might like to you, for example, would be points per game (ppg). I'll tell you right now that ppg is a useless stat. Would you rather have a guy who scores 30 ppg on 15 possessions, or a guy who scores 32 ppg on 35 possessions? The answer is obviously the first guy because even though he doesn't give you those 2 extra points, he gives 20 possessions to the rest of the team to do something with. 

Those are the kind of factors that statistics should measure. Not just how many points per game someone scores, but how effectively they are using their possessions. I already know that you like stats like FG% and 3pt% and stuff like that, so let me give you a tangible example that may help you understand why your opinion is wrong.

Say Kobe and Lebron both play a game, and they both have 20 possessions where they attempt to score.

Kobe makes 2 dunks on 2 attempts.
Kobe makes 4 two point jumpers on 10 attempts.
Kobe makes 1 three pointer on 3 attempts. 
Kobe makes 8 out of 10 free throws.

Lebron makes 7 dunks on 7 attempts.
Lebron makes 1 two point jumper on 4 attempts.
Lebron makes 1 three pointer on 4 attempts.
Lebron makes 7 out of 10 free throws.

Kobe's stats are:
46.6% FG
33% 3pt
80% FT

Lebron's stats are:
60% FG
25% 3pt
70% FT

By your analysis, Kobe was more efficient because he leads in 2 categories to Lebron's 1. 

But look at what happened! Lebron scored 26 points on 20 possessions, and Kobe scored 23 points on those same 20 possessions! So even though they had the ball for the same amount of time, Lebron scored more points. But your analysis would say that Kobe had the better game.

That's just a hypothetical of course, and the only reason I used those players was because it fits into our argument. But those are the things that the stats we are using measure. The ones you are using don't tell us who is more efficient, and that's obvious just by the example I gave.

I'm really hoping you take the time to read it because I did spend some time on it and I'm trying to help you understand where you are making your mistake.


----------



## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*



Brandname said:


> And Blue Magic, we wouldn't be so hard on you about this if you weren't being so bullheaded about it.
> 
> You can't admit you don't understand something and then go on a rant about exactly what you don't understand.
> 
> Personally, I WANT you to learn about this stuff. I want you to understand exactly what it means to be efficient in basketball. The more people who understand these kinds of things, the better our discussions are going to be able to be. You're resisting because these stats don't arrive to the conclusions that you want them to arrive at, but I swear if you take the time to learn and understand you won't regret it.
> 
> It's all about thinking about what's effective in the context of a basketball game. A stat that you might like to you, for example, would be points per game (ppg). I'll tell you right now that ppg is a useless stat. Would you rather have a guy who scores 30 ppg on 15 possessions, or a guy who scores 32 ppg on 35 possessions? The answer is obviously the first guy because even though he doesn't give you those 2 extra points, he gives 20 possessions to the rest of the team to do something with.
> 
> Those are the kind of factors that statistics should measure. Not just how many points per game someone scores, but how effectively they are using their possessions. I already know that you like stats like FG% and 3pt% and stuff like that, so let me give you a tangible example that may help you understand why your opinion is wrong.
> 
> Say Kobe and Lebron both play a game, and they both have 20 possessions where they attempt to score.
> 
> Kobe makes 2 dunks on 2 attempts.
> Kobe makes 4 two point jumpers on 10 attempts.
> Kobe makes 1 three pointer on 3 attempts.
> Kobe makes 8 out of 10 free throws.
> 
> Lebron makes 7 dunks on 7 attempts.
> Lebron makes 1 two point jumper on 4 attempts.
> Lebron makes 1 three pointer on 4 attempts.
> Lebron makes 7 out of 10 free throws.
> 
> Kobe's stats are:
> 46.6% FG
> 33% 3pt
> 80% FT
> 
> Lebron's stats are:
> 60% FG
> 25% 3pt
> 70% FT
> 
> By your analysis, Kobe was more efficient because he leads in 2 categories to Lebron's 1.
> 
> But look at what happened! Lebron scored 26 points on 20 possessions, and Kobe scored 23 points on those same 20 possessions! So even though they had the ball for the same amount of time, Lebron scored more points. But your analysis would say that Kobe had the better game.
> 
> That's just a hypothetical of course, and the only reason I used those players was because it fits into our argument. But those are the things that the stats we are using measure. The ones you are using don't tell us who is more efficient, and that's obvious just by the example I gave.
> 
> I'm really hoping you take the time to read it because I did spend some time on it and I'm trying to help you understand where you are making your mistake.


you're hypothetical obviously assumes they weren't guarding each other!


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



kflo said:


> you're hypothetical obviously assumes they weren't guarding each other!


Clearly you're trying to get me to have an aneurysm before I turn 26.


----------



## croco

*Re: MVP discussion*



Brandname said:


> And Blue Magic, we wouldn't be so hard on you about this if you weren't being so bullheaded about it.
> 
> You can't admit you don't understand something and then go on a rant about exactly what you don't understand.
> 
> Personally, I WANT you to learn about this stuff. I want you to understand exactly what it means to be efficient in basketball. The more people who understand these kinds of things, the better our discussions are going to be able to be. You're resisting because these stats don't arrive to the conclusions that you want them to arrive at, but I swear if you take the time to learn and understand you won't regret it.
> 
> It's all about thinking about what's effective in the context of a basketball game. A stat that you might like to you, for example, would be points per game (ppg). I'll tell you right now that ppg is a useless stat. Would you rather have a guy who scores 30 ppg on 15 possessions, or a guy who scores 32 ppg on 35 possessions? The answer is obviously the first guy because even though he doesn't give you those 2 extra points, he gives 20 possessions to the rest of the team to do something with.
> 
> Those are the kind of factors that statistics should measure. Not just how many points per game someone scores, but how effectively they are using their possessions. I already know that you like stats like FG% and 3pt% and stuff like that, so let me give you a tangible example that may help you understand why your opinion is wrong.
> 
> Say Kobe and Lebron both play a game, and they both have 20 possessions where they attempt to score.
> 
> Kobe makes 2 dunks on 2 attempts.
> Kobe makes 4 two point jumpers on 10 attempts.
> Kobe makes 1 three pointer on 3 attempts.
> Kobe makes 8 out of 10 free throws.
> 
> Lebron makes 7 dunks on 7 attempts.
> Lebron makes 1 two point jumper on 4 attempts.
> Lebron makes 1 three pointer on 4 attempts.
> Lebron makes 7 out of 10 free throws.
> 
> Kobe's stats are:
> 46.6% FG
> 33% 3pt
> 80% FT
> 
> Lebron's stats are:
> 60% FG
> 25% 3pt
> 70% FT
> 
> By your analysis, Kobe was more efficient because he leads in 2 categories to Lebron's 1.
> 
> But look at what happened! Lebron scored 26 points on 20 possessions, and Kobe scored 23 points on those same 20 possessions! So even though they had the ball for the same amount of time, Lebron scored more points. But your analysis would say that Kobe had the better game.
> 
> That's just a hypothetical of course, and the only reason I used those players was because it fits into our argument. But those are the things that the stats we are using measure. The ones you are using don't tell us who is more efficient, and that's obvious just by the example I gave.
> 
> I'm really hoping you take the time to read it because I did spend some time on it and I'm trying to help you understand where you are making your mistake.


If someone isn't interested in reading this breakdown of advanced stats with a basic example and the meaning behind all of that, I guess he really doesn't want to find out about it.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*

Nice job, Brandname. Repped.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*



Brandname said:


> And Blue Magic, we wouldn't be so hard on you about this if you weren't being so bullheaded about it.
> 
> You can't admit you don't understand something and then go on a rant about exactly what you don't understand.
> 
> Personally, I WANT you to learn about this stuff. I want you to understand exactly what it means to be efficient in basketball. The more people who understand these kinds of things, the better our discussions are going to be able to be. You're resisting because these stats don't arrive to the conclusions that you want them to arrive at, but I swear if you take the time to learn and understand you won't regret it.
> 
> It's all about thinking about what's effective in the context of a basketball game. A stat that you might like to you, for example, would be points per game (ppg). I'll tell you right now that ppg is a useless stat. Would you rather have a guy who scores 30 ppg on 15 possessions, or a guy who scores 32 ppg on 35 possessions? The answer is obviously the first guy because even though he doesn't give you those 2 extra points, he gives 20 possessions to the rest of the team to do something with.
> 
> Those are the kind of factors that statistics should measure. Not just how many points per game someone scores, but how effectively they are using their possessions. I already know that you like stats like FG% and 3pt% and stuff like that, so let me give you a tangible example that may help you understand why your opinion is wrong.
> 
> Say Kobe and Lebron both play a game, and they both have 20 possessions where they attempt to score.
> 
> Kobe makes 2 dunks on 2 attempts.
> Kobe makes 4 two point jumpers on 10 attempts.
> Kobe makes 1 three pointer on 3 attempts.
> Kobe makes 8 out of 10 free throws.
> 
> Lebron makes 7 dunks on 7 attempts.
> Lebron makes 1 two point jumper on 4 attempts.
> Lebron makes 1 three pointer on 4 attempts.
> Lebron makes 7 out of 10 free throws.
> 
> Kobe's stats are:
> 46.6% FG
> 33% 3pt
> 80% FT
> 
> Lebron's stats are:
> 60% FG
> 25% 3pt
> 70% FT
> 
> By your analysis, Kobe was more efficient because he leads in 2 categories to Lebron's 1.
> 
> But look at what happened! Lebron scored 26 points on 20 possessions, and Kobe scored 23 points on those same 20 possessions! So even though they had the ball for the same amount of time, Lebron scored more points. But your analysis would say that Kobe had the better game.
> 
> That's just a hypothetical of course, and the only reason I used those players was because it fits into our argument. But those are the things that the stats we are using measure. The ones you are using don't tell us who is more efficient, and that's obvious just by the example I gave.
> 
> I'm really hoping you take the time to read it because I did spend some time on it and I'm trying to help you understand where you are making your mistake.


No, I understand what've been saying. Im just saying Kobe is more efficient in MORE aspects of the game... That's what I consider to be a more efficient OVERALL player. I guess we just have different ways of looking @ it. (And Lebrons FG% is more around 48-50%....not 60% like you show in example. )

Either way LBJ's TS% and eFG% is only 2% points higher than Kobe's. That's not THAT great of a difference @ ALL. Couple everything together and I come to the conclusion that Kobe has a consistently more complete game. Meaning he has great efficiency in more areas and is only 2% points lower in overall TS% & eFG%. I look @ the guy with the more balanced body of work as a more efficient OVERALL player. I say overall, meaning, in more different aspects. 

Either way, being more efficient by merely 2% points is not enough to say that player 'A' is ahead of player 'B' and acting like it's 'not even close'. It is definitely close. We'll just have to agree to disagree though, because I still conclude that Kobe is a more efficient all-around player than Lebron by looking @ my #'s and you conclude something else from your #'s.


----------



## Drewbs

*Re: MVP discussion*



NewAgeBaller said:


> Who were you playing..? :uhoh:


But considering Andrew Bynum just went through a stretch where he was allergic to playing good basketball, I think it's a hopeful sign...


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> No, I understand what've been saying. Im just saying Kobe is more efficient in MORE aspects of the game... That's what I consider to be a more efficient OVERALL player. I guess we just have different ways of looking @ it. (And Lebrons FG% is more around 48-50%....not 60% like you show in example. )


It was a single game example. For illustrative purposes. It was not meant to be reflective of their season averages.

More efficient in more aspects of the game? How many aspects of the game are there, exactly?



> Either way LBJ's TS% and eFG% is only 2% points higher than Kobe's. That's not THAT great of a difference @ ALL. Couple everything together and I come to the conclusion that Kobe has a consistently more complete game. Meaning he has great efficiency in more areas and is only 2% points lower in overall TS% & eFG%. I look @ the guy with the more balanced body of work as a more efficient OVERALL player. I say overall, meaning, in more different aspects.
> 
> Either way, being more efficient by merely 2% points is not enough to say that player 'A' is ahead of player 'B' and acting like it's 'not even close'. It is definitely close. We'll just have to agree to disagree though, because I still conclude that Kobe is a more efficient all-around player than Lebron by looking @ my #'s and you conclude something else from your #'s.


First of all, I never said that there was some kind of great chasm between the scoring efficiencies of Lebron and Kobe. There is a statistically significant difference. It's not massive, but it's there. 2% sounds small, but it's a modest difference in basketball, where almost everyone shoots somewhere between about 44% and 51%. 

My original point was to address your assertion that Kobe is more efficient than Lebron, which is false. What I think you're missing in all of this is that scoring efficiency isn't a matter of opinion. It's not who can do a wider variety of things on the basketball court. It's why Shaq was an efficiency machine in his prime. He did almost exclusively one thing to score - dunk the basketball. And sometimes he got fouled. He had terrible 3 point percentages (I think he's made like 1 out of 20 in his career) and terrible FT shooting, but he was a ridiculously efficient scorer because he was an absolute force down low. Hell, Shaq is STILL scoring more efficiently than Lebron James, even. It's not a matter of opinion, it's just a fact. 

But my question still remains. If you continue to use your flawed analysis of efficiency, how many (exactly) aspects of the game are there that you're counting? Are you just counting FG% 3pt% and FT% and it's a 'best of 3' or something?


----------



## Dre

*Re: MVP discussion*

I don't see how anyone can say Kobe's more efficient. 

I'm surprised frankly the percentages are so close, Kobe has many more instances where he becomes a gunner for half a quarter and basically freezes out his teammates. That in fact is still his major flaw.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: MVP discussion*



Dre™ said:


> I don't see how anyone can say Kobe's more efficient.
> 
> I'm surprised frankly the percentages are so close, Kobe has many more instances where he becomes a gunner for half a quarter and basically freezes out his teammates. That in fact is still his major flaw.


Lebron has a problem with what we like to call 'heat checks'. Part of the reason that his jumpshot percentage is so low, beyond the fact that he's just not a good jumpshooter, is the fact that once he hits two in a row, we know a 'heat check' is coming. Something that most of us Cavs fans hate. He will always, without fail, take an unnecessarily difficult shot to see if he's hot or not. It wouldn't be bad if he didn't do it ALL THE TIME. Literally it happens about 2 or 3 or 4 times a game. And it's a big part of the reason his 3 point attempts are so high. Both of these players have some shot selection issues that they need to work on.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*



Brandname said:


> Lebron has a problem with what we like to call 'heat checks'. Part of the reason that his jumpshot percentage is so low, beyond the fact that he's just not a good jumpshooter, is the fact that once he hits two in a row, we know a 'heat check' is coming. Something that most of us Cavs fans hate. He will always, without fail, take an unnecessarily difficult shot to see if he's hot or not. It wouldn't be bad if he didn't do it ALL THE TIME. Literally it happens about 2 or 3 or 4 times a game. And it's a big part of the reason his 3 point attempts are so high. Both of these players have some shot selection issues that they need to work on.


Kobe does this all the time as well. Sometimes it works out well, sometimes it doesn't. But it's annoying because he does his "heat check" about 7 seconds into the shot clock. And it's usually a 3-pointer.


----------



## Dre

*Re: MVP discussion*



Brandname said:


> Lebron has a problem with what we like to call 'heat checks'. Part of the reason that his jumpshot percentage is so low, beyond the fact that he's just not a good jumpshooter, is the fact that once he hits two in a row, we know a 'heat check' is coming. Something that most of us Cavs fans hate. He will always, without fail, take an unnecessarily difficult shot to see if he's hot or not. It wouldn't be bad if he didn't do it ALL THE TIME. Literally it happens about 2 or 3 or 4 times a game. And it's a big part of the reason his 3 point attempts are so high. Both of these players have some shot selection issues that they need to work on.


Yeah, Lebron will blow a couple shots a game, but Kobe has historically bad tunnel vision. Some of his playoff performances aren't indicative of his skill level at all. 

That's the major reason I think Lebron is better, I think he's a more intuitive player. I feel like sometimes Kobe only has two speeds, he doesn't know how to balance being a distributor and scorer as well as Lebron. I saw this last year in the Finals, he'd still be setting up teammates when it's time for him to go for the jugular and vice versa. It seems like where it takes Kobe a couple minutes to switch his oncourt demeanor, Lebron controls the entire game on a possession by possession basis.


----------



## Drewbs

*Re: MVP discussion*



Basel said:


> Kobe does this all the time as well. Sometimes it works out well, sometimes it doesn't. But it's annoying because he does his "heat check" about 7 seconds into the shot clock. And it's usually a 3-pointer.


And it's usually not a rhythm shot. It's one where he catches the ball, holds it for a few seconds, stares down the defender and then launches it in a defender's face. Terrible shot...


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: MVP discussion*

The good news is LeBron has only completed -5- NBA seasons and already led his team to the NBA finals.

He's only 24 and he is THIS good already. It's scary to remember he has the potential to CONTINUE TO IMPROVE! lots of room


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*



Drewbs said:


> And it's usually not a rhythm shot. It's one where he catches the ball, holds it for a few seconds, stares down the defender and then launches it in a defender's face. Terrible shot...


quit hatin on Kobe's jumpers of death



ChrisRichards said:


> The good news is LeBron has only completed -5- NBA seasons and already led his team to the NBA finals.
> 
> He's only 24 and he is THIS good already. It's scary to remember he has the potential to CONTINUE TO IMPROVE! lots of room


true


----------



## SamTheMan67

*Re: MVP discussion*

The infamous "no no no no no YES" shot


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*

^ Hahaha, I know I can't even remember how many times that i've said that watching him.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*



SamTheMan67 said:


> The infamous "no no no no no YES" shot


:laugh:

Bingo.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

BUMP :groucho:


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*

Kobe with an incredible game to slightly move closerto Lebron, hopefully he can keep it up and squeeze him out for the top spot.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP discussion*

Anyone who watched NBATV tonight can clearly see why Kobe's MVP is completely bogus


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*



Diable said:


> Anyone who watched NBATV tonight can clearly see why Kobe's MVP is completely bogus


Yeah, the Hornets are terrible without Paul. Blowing a 15-point lead at home...ouch.


----------



## Cap

*Re: MVP discussion*

^ Yeah, thank god Paul didn't get the MVP last season, that would have been a joke.


----------



## Tooeasy

*Re: MVP discussion*

Chris Paul goes down with a groin injury, and the blazers go on a 42-17 run, absolutely unbelieveable. It changed the entire landscape of the game and it became blatantly obvious even when the hornets still had a double digit lead that they would lose the game. No player on their team is more valuable than cp3 is in my opinion, and a game with the end result like this just solidifies that point.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*



Diable said:


> Anyone who watched NBATV tonight can clearly see why Kobe's MVP is completely bogus


Your right, he should have won it in 2006 and 2007 instead of last year.


Last year Lebron probobly should have won it followed by Kobe.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*



Tooeasy said:


> Chris Paul goes down with a groin injury, and the blazers go on a 42-17 run, absolutely unbelieveable. It changed the entire landscape of the game and it became blatantly obvious even when the hornets still had a double digit lead that they would lose the game. No player on their team is more valuable than cp3 is* in my opinion*, and a game with the end result like this just solidifies that point.


In everyone's opinion.


----------



## Tooeasy

*Re: MVP discussion*



Basel said:


> In everyone's opinion.


 I would have loved to use that phrasing instead, however theres still a great deal of people that think otherwise. even though its totally asinine, people just aren't willing to acknowledge the differentiation between "best" player and most "valuable" player.


----------



## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*



Diable said:


> Anyone who watched NBATV tonight can clearly see why Kobe's MVP is completely bogus


i can see why you think that considering you seem to think kobe's little different than alex english. then again, that's a pretty wacky thing to believe.


----------



## HKF

*Re: MVP discussion*

The thing that makes losing Paul bad is that the offense is completely dependent on him dribbling around all the time. Similar to Nash, the backup doesn't play enough to have continuity with the rest of the team.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*



Tooeasy said:


> I would have loved to use that phrasing instead, however theres still a great deal of people that think otherwise. even though its totally asinine, people just aren't willing to acknowledge the differentiation between "best" player and most "valuable" player.


Actually, I mis-read what you were trying to say. I thought you meant that CP3 was the most valuable on the Hornets, which is very obvious, and that's why I said "in everyone's opinion."

As for who is actually the most valuable to his respective team, that's an entirely different debate.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*

Paul is second in +/- this year and second in adjusted 2 year +/- (he's behind Lebron in both). The data does not include last night's game

http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.php?year=2008-2009&mode=summary&sortnumber=21&sortorder=DESC


----------



## Tooeasy

*Re: MVP discussion*



Pioneer10 said:


> Paul is second in +/- this year and second in adjusted 2 year +/- (he's behind Lebron in both). The data does not include last night's game
> 
> http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.php?year=2008-2009&mode=summary&sortnumber=21&sortorder=DESC


Good stat, but to elaborate on that a bit... the cavs are winning games by an average of 10 points this season, the hornets are only at around a +5 margin. Lebron James and his team have had some serious blowouts throughout the season already, but new orleans just haven't had many statement games.


----------



## Balodis03

*Re: MVP discussion*

1. Wade
2. Bryant
3. James
4. Howard


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*

Welcome to the boards! :cheers:

I don't think you're going to find very many people who agree with you, though.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: MVP discussion*

There is no MVP discussion. LeBron has it in the bag.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*



Balodis03 said:


> 1. Wade
> 2. Bryant
> 3. James
> 4. Howard


Come on.... Really? Lebron third?

Had to be a typo.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*



GrandKenyon6 said:


> There is no MVP discussion. LeBron has it in the bag.


We'll see. It's definitely not a runaway like people make out to be.... it never is.


----------



## iversonfan 349

*Re: MVP discussion*

I think it should be lebron.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP discussion*

Kobe vs. Bron Sunday. It's a big game for both teams, best record in league, and of course more debate about MVP. Put up or shut up time.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: MVP discussion*

There is no debate about MVP. It's LeBron in a landslide, and unless Cleveland drops way down in the standings, he's got it on lock.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP discussion*

Lakers put the 10th loss in the Cavs column this season. Lakers > Cavs. Kobe is having a great second half to his season. LeBron is still ahead, but no doubt KB24 is gaining ground. Records are going to have a huge factor as they always do in who wins the MVP. Good for Kobe and the Lakers though, nobody really thought they were going to beat the Cavs at home, especially with out Bynum. Yet that's just what they did today, and pretty convincingly.


----------



## Lebbron

*Re: MVP discussion*



HKF said:


> The thing that makes losing Paul bad is that the offense is completely dependent on him dribbling around all the time. Similar to Nash, the backup doesn't play enough to have continuity with the rest of the team.


He's also critical on defense too though. The little guys torch them whenever he sits down (see Bayless and Rose) and he is so active on the double downs and help D they really miss him on that end. 

He's got the biggest on/off points allowed on the team by a lot and best counterpart production of any starting PG in the league. Very underrated on that end where most people consider him a liability just based on his height. The Portland and Bulls games exposed how little defense the Hornets after the first line is broken, so keeping players outside is critical.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP discussion*

I think LeBron should win MVP this year, but don't be surprised if Kobe pulls down another one. The Lakers are showing out against the top teams, and even though Kobe hasn't been amazing in those games, history has shown us that stats and individual accomplishments aren't what wins MVP's. Kobe could tell you that from experience. It's leadership and all that jazz that matters, and having a bad shooting night isn't as important as riling up a bunch of softies to win big games against very physical teams. And while Kobe has a better supporting cast than anyone, he also has a bunch of passive players with a reputation of being soft, so I think you have to give him credit because I think he plays a big part in motivating them to play more physical against the Kendrick Perkins' of the world.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*

Edit: Nevermind.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP discussion*

IMO Lebron is still in the lead, but it's certainly not in the runaway race that it was two months ago.

Kobe's gaining pretty steadily, but he's going to have to shcok everyone with some incredible preformances to pull it off.


----------



## Blue

*Re: MVP discussion*

It's never been a 'runaway' race. I never understood the notion that its 'not even close', like some were(and still are) making it out to be.... It's gonna come down to the end of the year IMO, just like it usually does.


----------



## kflo

*Re: MVP discussion*



Blue Magic said:


> It's never been a 'runaway' race. I never understood the notion that its 'not even close', like some were(and still are) making it out to be.... It's gonna come down to the end of the year IMO, just like it usually does.


this decade, shaq and garnett both won in runaway landslides.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*

Still can't figure out why the dude who voted for someone other then Shaq in 00 got to keep his vote.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*

He voted for Allen Iverson and his reason was, "You take Shaq away from the Lakers and you've still got a great team."

Shaq would've been the first unanimous MVP in league history.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP discussion*



Basel said:


> He voted for Allen Iverson and his reason was, "You take Shaq away from the Lakers and you've still got a great team."
> 
> Shaq would've been the first unanimous MVP in league history.


I'm still wondering why he still got future votes


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt

*Re: MVP discussion*

It's still Lebron at this point.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP discussion*

Kobe starting to get MVP attention from ESPN writers. 



> Can You Say 'Back-To-Back?'
> Chris Broussard, ESPN The Magazine: Kobe has inserted himself firmly into the MVP race. I think LeBron's been the MVP all season, and I'm still leaning that way now. But he has a new challenger. Early on, Dwyane Wade was providing competition (though the unlikeliness of Miami winning 50 games was always going to kill his chances).
> 
> Then, I thought Dwight Howard was gaining ground after leading Orlando briefly to the best record in the East. Now, Kobe is coming on strong. Playing with a dislocated finger (again) and leading this team through Andrew Bynum's injury (again) only work in Kobe's favor, as far as MVP chances go. If he can lead the Lakers to the league's best record, he's going to have a heck of a case for repeating. Of course, LeBron has no all-star teammates, which would make it hard not to reward him for 60 or so wins.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP discussion*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/awards?page=awards-090210

First time I've seen anybody actually rank somebody ahead of LeBron this season.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP discussion*



Basel said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/awards?page=awards-090210
> 
> First time I've seen anybody actually rank somebody ahead of LeBron this season.


Beautiful, Kobe is picking up Thunder in the MVP race, he's definitely closing in on LBJ, and by the article posted by Basel taking that number one vote for MVP. What a second half of the season we are off to.


----------



## Idunkonyou

If the Lakers end up with the best record in basketball this year, how couldn't you give it to Kobe again? It isn't like he has sucked this year.

Another guy that will most likely get a ton of votes if he can lead his team to around 60 wins is Howard. With Nelson out, he is the only man now. Tonight he made a statement for the writers with his 45/19/8 game.


----------



## kflo

you could not give it to kobe because lebron is having the better overall season. kobe should be fighting for 2nd, but lebron should still be comfortably in the lead here.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

kobe's gaining a lot of steam. jon barry and mike wilbon (lebron guys) said that right now kobe is their mvp. ric bucher also said he would pick kobe after the lakers went 4-0 against the beastern teams (cleveland/boston) but ric bucher's opinion doesnt count because he's always been a kobe supporter.


----------



## Brandname

Ric Bucher said Kobe is MVP? No way!


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt

Bucher replaced Jim Gray as Kobe's mouthpiece.


----------



## G-man-sc

so LeBron had a pretty good night tonight (yet again) getting 55 points in less shots than kobe used getting 39 (don't remember the different in FGA but it was something like 27-30) does this change anything? imo LeBron is still the mvp so far, but i'm a homer would love hearing from somebody else what they think?


----------



## Luke

G-man-sc said:


> so LeBron had a pretty good night tonight (yet again) getting 55 points in less shots than kobe used getting 39 (don't remember the different in FGA but it was something like 27-30) does this change anything? imo LeBron is still the mvp so far, but i'm a homer would love hearing from somebody else what they think?


Nobody is saying that Kobe deserves it over Lebron right now, because he pretty clearly doesn't. But, he is gaining a lot of ground and could certainly overtake him at the end.


----------



## hendrix2430

Idunkonyou said:


> If the Lakers end up with the best record in basketball this year, how couldn't you give it to Kobe again?


If this is the only way people are going to vote, then Kobe will repeat. I think it would be a terrible way to vote (if you're being strict about it). 

If at the end of the season the Lakers win 10+ more games then the Cavs, then ok, I'd understand. But if the Lakers and Cavs have both similar records and over 60 wins, then I think you give it to Lebron, no question.


----------



## Basel

I'll be very surprised if LeBron doesn't win MVP this season - as of right now, he deserves it, and unless something drastic happens, it's his award to lose.


----------



## PauloCatarino

hendrix2430 said:


> If this is the only way people are going to vote, then Kobe will repeat. I think it would be a terrible way to vote (if you're being strict about it).
> 
> *If at the end of the season the Lakers win 10+ more games then the Cavs, then ok, I'd understand. But if the Lakers and Cavs have both similar records and over 60 wins, then I think you give it to Lebron, no question.*


I agree. Lebron has been individually better than Kobe so far. But, like others have said, Kobe is bound to step up his game (wich he has done) ever since AB went down.
But yes, it appears that only if the Lakers wind up with something like 10 wins more at the end of the season Kobe could get votes...


----------



## futuristxen

aznzen said:


> kobe's gaining a lot of steam. jon barry and mike wilbon (lebron guys) said that right now kobe is their mvp. ric bucher also said he would pick kobe after the lakers went 4-0 against the beastern teams (cleveland/boston) but ric bucher's opinion doesnt count because he's always been a kobe supporter.


If Jon barry and Mike Wilbon are Lebron guys I'll eat my hat. Those guys have hated on Lebron for Lebron's whole career. If Wilbon could, he'd give the MVP to his love child D Wade.


----------



## futuristxen

PauloCatarino said:


> I agree. Lebron has been individually better than Kobe so far. But, like others have said, Kobe is bound to step up his game (wich he has done) ever since AB went down.
> But yes, it appears that only if the Lakers wind up with something like 10 wins more at the end of the season Kobe could get votes...


Lebron in January: 28/10/8
Lebron in February: 35/8/7

Last 5 games: 33/8/7

Kobe in Jan: 27/7/6
Kobe in Feb: 32/5/4

Last 5 games: 30/5/4

Looks to me like both of them are stepping up their games right now.

The funny thing about the Lakers losing Bynum, is that it's never really affected them in the regular season. Last season when they got Gasol, they had no trouble winning as well. It's only in the playoffs, specifically the finals, that it mattered. And that was only because the Lakers collectively choked last year. I'm still shocked that they lost last year, honestly. They had no reason to do that, even without Bynum.


----------



## hendrix2430

If you check out the majority of Lakers' wins, they always seem to barely _escape_ with the victory (tonight again against the T wolves). Obviously this isn't the case* all the time*, but it does happen quite often, MUCH moreso than the Cavs or Celts imo. Maybe this could help them in the playoffs?


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

hendrix2430 said:


> If you check out the majority of Lakers' wins, they always seem to barely _escape_ with the victory (tonight again against the T wolves). Obviously this isn't the case* all the time*, but it does happen quite often, MUCH moreso than the Cavs or Celts imo. Maybe this could help them in the playoffs?


I've noticed that the Lakers play to the level of their competition. Against weaker teams they basically try to win with offense alot of the times. But when they play the top squads like BOS or CLE they step up their defensive game (at least in spurts). 

So it's hard to say. The only team I've REALLY seen the Lakers have a little bit of trouble with is ORL (LA's defensive strategy basically baits teams into taking outside shots, but in ORL case that is their specialty) but even both of those games could have gone either way.


----------



## Basel

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/awards?page=awards-090224

1. Kobe
2. LeBron
3. D12
4. Wade
5. Duncan

That's how he's got it ranked right now.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Basel said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/awards?page=awards-090224
> 
> 1. Kobe
> 2. LeBron
> 3. D12
> 4. Wade
> 5. Duncan
> 
> That's how he's got it ranked right now.


Havn't seen Duncan lately, but CP3 should be a Top 5 candidate.

I've got -

1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. CP3
4. Dwight
5. Wade

With CP3/Dwight/Wade interchangeable depending on what you're most looking at.


----------



## kflo

NewAgeBaller said:


> Havn't seen Duncan lately, but CP3 should be a Top 5 candidate.
> 
> I've got -
> 
> 1. Lebron
> 2. Kobe
> 3. CP3
> 4. Dwight
> 5. Wade
> 
> With CP3/Dwight/Wade interchangeable depending on what you're most looking at.


clearly, it's a 2 man race (although lebron should be comfortably in the lead), and the next 4 spots should have cp/dw/dh/td, with order simply depending on how you value offense/defense/record/intangibles.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt

Basel said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/awards?page=awards-090224
> 
> 1. Kobe
> 2. LeBron
> 3. D12
> 4. Wade
> 5. Duncan
> 
> That's how he's got it ranked right now.


I am a homer. But come on Mr. Brooks, Lebron has to be first right now in the MVP voting.


----------



## Basel

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> I am a homer. But come on Mr. Brooks, Lebron has to be first right now in the MVP voting.


:laugh: Agreed.


----------



## Brandname

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> I am a homer. But come on Mr. Brooks, Lebron has to be first right now in the MVP voting.


That guy is a complete moron, and it has little to do with his putting Kobe above Lebron. His rankings all year have been completely asinine.

I mean, look at his DPOY standings:

1) Dwight Howard
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Lebron James
4) Kobe Bryant
5) Chris Paul


----------



## Dre

You're just jealous Lebron can't shut people down like Chris Paul does :uhoh:


----------



## futuristxen

Ha. The guy says in his DPOY rankings that Delonte is the Cavs best on the ball defender. Why not put him in your DPOY rankings then? Holding teams to a league low ppg average. It must be all because of Delonte West.

The mental midgets who work in sports journalism always astounds me.


----------



## Dre

It's a two man race, but if we're still going to be stuck on the top 5 candidates or whatever I would have asked two weeks ago why Garnett hasn't been mentioned...watching the Celtics with and without him proves he's the key on both sides of the ball.

And yes, they're winning fine without him like they did last year, but they have two great wing players and Rondo's been abusing most of his point guard matchups, so they can win regular season games. They turn into a _special_ team with him oncourt though. I don't think they would go far in the playoffs without KG.


----------



## Blue

It's just not fair that they're gonna get Stephon now too. I thought Cleveland had a decent shot w/ the Magic going out the picture(for the most part, at least). 

But now that Boston will get Starbury coming off the bench, that's just too much talent. They have too many weapons for anybody to beat them in 7 games IMO. It's a wrap.


----------



## kflo

Blue Magic said:


> It's just not fair that they're gonna get Stephon now too. I thought Cleveland had a decent shot w/ the Magic going out the picture(for the most part, at least).
> 
> But now that Boston will get Starbury coming off the bench, that's just too much talent. They have too many weapons for anybody to beat them in 7 games IMO. It's a wrap.


i think it's silly to think steph is automatically a difference maker, particularly coming in at this stage of the season. guy hasn't played a game since jan 08, and really hasn't had a good individual season since 2005.


----------



## Dre

I think it's silly to think Stephon Marbury won't make a difference as a backup PG.

He's missed a year...you don't forget how to ball in a year. Not to mention it's not like he's coming off an injury, if anything he'll be rested. Within a month I fully expect him to be a factor.


----------



## Diable

it would be better for the rest of the East if Steph remembered exactly how he used to play.Personally I have no clue what he can do at this point,but you have to face the fact that it's been much more than a year since he's been a productive player,meaning a player who produces for his team.


----------



## kflo

Dre™ said:


> I think it's silly to think Stephon Marbury won't make a difference as a backup PG.
> 
> He's missed a year...you don't forget how to ball in a year. Not to mention it's not like he's coming off an injury, if anything he'll be rested. Within a month I fully expect him to be a factor.


he hasn't made a difference as a starter since 2005.


----------



## Dre

No, actually it hasn't. Maybe he wasn't producing at his highest level but he wasn't awful. Not to mention he played on some selfish Knicks teams...how many assists can you really expect with Zach, Curry, and Crawford on the roster?


----------



## Luke

Kobe just climbed to the top of the NBA.com ratings...

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/rob_peterson/02/27/kobe_tops.mvp.20090227/index.html

Hopefully he can keep it up and snag it from Lebron.


----------



## Pioneer10

I love those ranking: Lebron is better across the board on every single measure except FT% and his team is only one loss back of the Lakers and Lebron is #2?


----------



## GrandKenyon6

LeBron is still miles ahead of Kobe in the MVP race, though the gap is narrowing.


----------



## Luke

GrandKenyon6 said:


> LeBron is still miles ahead of Kobe in the MVP race, though the gap is narrowing.


If you would have said that a month ago, I would have agreed with you, but Kobe has narrowed the gap a HUGE amount.

Granted, Lebron still has a decent cushion, but Kobe is starting to turn this into a pretty close race.


----------



## DNKO

Wade put another MVP show.

He plays better than Kobe or James. But he's on a much wacker team, unfortunately.

Wade has a very nice post-All Star Game stats.


----------



## bball2223

Wade should be considered a legit MVP candidate. He has been the best player in the league since the AS break and has been consistently dominant all year.


----------



## Ras

DNKO said:


> Wade put another MVP show.
> 
> He plays better than Kobe or James. But he's on a much wacker team, unfortunately.
> 
> Wade has a very nice post-All Star Game stats.


I've asked this all year to anyone who said this and never got a response: what does Wade do, even individually, that puts him above LeBron and Kobe? If anything, they're all on roughly the same level individually in my eyes.

I'd say LeBron still gets it over Kobe too. Just because Bynum went down doesn't mean he still doesn't have a better supporting cast then LeBron. If LeBron and Kobe have roughly the same amount of wins, I don't see how you can justify Kobe when that would instantly mean LeBron has done more to get there considering his supporting cast certainly doesn't stack up to the Lakers. Not to say it's bad, but the Lakers are very much better.


----------



## Blue

Withou Bynum, I dont see how LA 'soo stacked' compared to Cleveland... The notion that it's Lebron surrounded by abunch of bums is myth.....


----------



## Dre

Wade isn't in the discussion...maybe he should be, but we all know how the voters decide...and the Cavs and Lakers are two top 3 teams.


----------



## Blue

And outside of Kobe, LA doesnt have near the quality of guardplay that Cleveland does tho....


----------



## Ras

Blue Magic said:


> Withou Bynum, I dont see how LA 'soo stacked' compared to Cleveland... The notion that it's Lebron surrounded by abunch of bums is myth.....


I never said it was LeBron and a bunch of bums. In fact I said kind of the opposite, I said they weren't bad at all (they have a great bunch of role players), I just think LA is better. The Cavs don't really have a player of Gasol's caliber, and like someone else said, that leaves them without a post-threat (though Z is one, I don't think he's on the level of Gasol). While, yes their guard play is better, are Mo Williams, Tarence Kinsey, Wally Szczerbiak, Boobie Gibson and Pavlovic really all that great? Delonte's been out for some time now, and if I'm not mistaken, is still injured. I think Cavs fans have been saying Boobie and Pavlovic haven't really been that great this year. So, their biggest perk is Mo Williams. While he's a good player, and a good fit for what LeBron needs, I think he's only seen on the level he now is because of LeBron. So, yes they're a good group of role-players, but none of those players are the difference maker a Gasol can be. The Cavs are now also without Ben Wallace, leaving their front court as Big Z, Varejao and JJ Hickson.

So, yes I think the Cavs have a good supporting cast, I just think the Lakers are better. They have a better second option in Gasol, and then past that they have good role players themselves, like Lamar, Ariza, Farmar and so on.


----------



## Blue

> I never said it was LeBron and a bunch of bums. In fact I said kind of the opposite, I said they weren't bad at all (they have a great bunch of role players), I just think LA is better. The Cavs don't really have a player of Gasol's caliber, and like someone else said, that leaves them without a post-threat (though Z is one, I don't think he's on the level of Gasol). While, yes their guard play is better, are Mo Williams, Tarence Kinsey, Wally Szczerbiak, Boobie Gibson and Pavlovic really all that great? Delonte's been out for some time now, and if I'm not mistaken, is still injured. I think Cavs fans have been saying Boobie and Pavlovic haven't really been that great this year. So, their biggest perk is Mo Williams. While he's a good player, and a good fit for what LeBron needs, I think he's only seen on the level he now is because of LeBron. So, yes they're a good group of role-players, but none of those players are the difference maker a Gasol can be. The Cavs are now also without Ben Wallace, leaving their front court as Big Z, Varejao and JJ Hickson.
> 
> So, yes I think the Cavs have a good supporting cast, I just think the Lakers are better. They have a better second option in Gasol, and then past that they have good role players themselves, like Lamar, Ariza, Farmar and so on.


I didnt say you did, but it is just a notion that has been used alot in the past and im saying that is far from the case... I agree that with Bynum, Kobe's team is better, but w/o him I dont really see the great edge. 



Prolific Scorer said:


> IDK.. Derek Fisher, Jordan Farmar, and Sasha sounds pretty solid to me, with Ariza having the ability to play some SG.


Those guys are solid, but Clevelands frontcourt is 'pretty solid' too. LA's backcourt is not better than Cleveland's backcourt tho, period. 

Mo Will, DWest, Boobie & Wally Z is clearly > Fisher, Farmar, Ariza & Machine... just like Pau, LO, Powell, & Mbenga clearly > Zyd, Varajao, Hickson, & Wright. W/O Bynum, the talent difference isn't that great which is what im saying.... The supporting cast are about equal right now(maybe Ben being out gives LA a slight edge again tho).



> Plus why would you take Kobe out of the equation? He _is_ a SG and he _is_ healthy.


Because, we're talking about supporting casts.....


----------



## PauloCatarino

Ras said:


> I never said it was LeBron and a bunch of bums. In fact I said kind of the opposite, I said they weren't bad at all (they have a great bunch of role players), I just think LA is better. The Cavs don't really have a player of Gasol's caliber, and like someone else said, that leaves them without a post-threat (though Z is one, I don't think he's on the level of Gasol). While, yes their guard play is better, are Mo Williams, Tarence Kinsey, Wally Szczerbiak, Boobie Gibson and Pavlovic really all that great? Delonte's been out for some time now, and if I'm not mistaken, is still injured. I think Cavs fans have been saying Boobie and Pavlovic haven't really been that great this year. So, their biggest perk is Mo Williams. While he's a good player, and a good fit for what LeBron needs, I think he's only seen on the level he now is because of LeBron. So, yes they're a good group of role-players, but none of those players are the difference maker a Gasol can be. The Cavs are now also without Ben Wallace, leaving their front court as Big Z, Varejao and JJ Hickson.
> 
> So, yes I think the Cavs have a good supporting cast, I just think the Lakers are better. They have a better second option in Gasol, and then past that they have good role players themselves, like Lamar, Ariza, Farmar and so on.


Hmmm...
From all the famed "good supoorting cast" Kobe Bryant has, i just don't see it.

The Lakers have 3 good defenders on their roster who play meanungfull minutes: Kobe, Ariza and Bynum. After AB went down, the Lakers have probably the softest frontcourt, defensive-wise, from all the top teams. Yes, Odom is a good rebounder. And Pau is a good scorer. Buy none of them can defend.
Fisher and Walton are average to mediocre starters (the later more than the former), and neither one can create his own shot.
Farmar and Sasha are playing poorly. And they aren't good players to begin with. Powell and MBenga? Meh. Sun and Brown? 

I said it before and i'll say it again: without AB, when push comes to shove, the Lakers would need all the luck in the world to win it all. It's not like AB is Hakeem, or something. Is that he is the sole post player the Lakers have that can provide impact on both sides of the court.

To sum it up: Kobe has Pau, who is an adept scorer, Odom, who is a good rebounder, and Fisher, who can still deliver some. The rest of the roster? Meh.


----------



## Blue

Prolific Scorer said:


> But I wasn't talking about supporting casts, I just stated that the Cavs' don't have a consistant offensive post player like an Andrew Bynum or a Pau Gasol.
> 
> That was including LeBron, so why would you exclude Bryant out of our argument?
> 
> So Cleveland's backcourt isn't better than LA's.


No, we were all talking about the supporting cast. I responded to Ras about this statement and thats when the discussion started.



Ras said:


> If LeBron and Kobe have roughly the same amount of wins, I don't see how you can justify Kobe when that would instantly mean LeBron has done more to get there *considering his supporting cast certainly doesn't stack up to the Lakers.*


It seemed to me that he was saying, w/o Bynum, Kobe's supporting cast was still significantly better than what Lebron had to work with.... so i broke down how i viewed the respective players cast....

If you want to include them then sure LA's backcourt is better w/ Kobe, but you cat say LA's frontcourt is better than CLE's if Lebron is in the mix... you just cant.


----------



## Luke

PauloCatarino said:


> Hmmm...
> From all the famed "good supoorting cast" Kobe Bryant has, i just don't see it.
> 
> The Lakers have 3 good defenders on their roster who play meanungfull minutes: Kobe, Ariza and Bynum. After AB went down, the Lakers have probably the softest frontcourt, defensive-wise, from all the top teams. Yes, Odom is a good rebounder. And Pau is a good scorer. Buy none of them can defend.
> Fisher and Walton are average to mediocre starters (the later more than the former), and neither one can create his own shot.
> Farmar and Sasha are playing poorly. And they aren't good players to begin with. Powell and MBenga? Meh. Sun and Brown?
> 
> I said it before and i'll say it again: without AB, when push comes to shove, the Lakers would need all the luck in the world to win it all. It's not like AB is Hakeem, or something. Is that he is the sole post player the Lakers have that can provide impact on both sides of the court.
> 
> To sum it up: Kobe has Pau, who is an adept scorer, Odom, who is a good rebounder, and Fisher, who can still deliver some. The rest of the roster? Meh.


Gasol may not be Bill Russell, but he's really not that bad of a defender. He held Tim Duncan to 43% shooting in last years series, and held KG to 42% in the Finals. The biggest problem he had on the defensive end was that he allowed himself to get bullied by the bigger, stronger players, but after seeing him and Odom not give and inch to KG in the two times that they met, I feel alot better about our chances if we do meet the Celtics in the Finals.


----------



## hendrix2430

The Lakers' roster isn't MUCH better than Cleveland's. It's better, but not MUCH better. 

Also, for all that's been said about how horrid Bynum's injury was to the Lakers, how about Cleveland? They have been extremely unlucky, having missed D.West, Big Z, Pavlobrick, D.Gibson all for a significant number of games. Now, their best post defender and starting PF, Ben Wallace, is likely gone for the season, after having missed games before that as well.

Also, the lakers play/will play *6* teams that currently have 20 wins or less 4 times this season. That's 24 near guaranteed wins right there. The EC has *1*.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

Without Bynum, Cavs and Lakers have comparable talent IMO (Lakers slightly better overall)

However as Hendrix mentioned CLE has been hit hard by injuries this year. Ben Wallace out now for the rest of the year, but for a huge chunk of games both Z + Delonte (2 starters) were out at the same time. 

All you have to do to see the impact of losing 1 key rotation guy is looking at ORL since they lost Jameer. CLE has weathered their injury problems extremely well this year in that regard.


----------



## Luke

Benedict_Boozer said:


> Without Bynum, Cavs and Lakers have comparable talent IMO (Lakers slightly better overall)
> 
> However as Hendrix mentioned CLE has been hit hard by injuries this year. Ben Wallace out now for the rest of the year, but for a huge chunk of games both Z + Delonte (2 starters) were out at the same time.
> 
> All you have to do to see the impact of losing 1 key rotation guy is looking at ORL since they lost Jameer. CLE has weathered their injury problems extremely well this year in that regard.


The Cavs situation is a little different then the Magic's because Jameer was an All-Star, and their clear-sut second best player.

The Cavs have been pretty unlucky as far as injuries go though.


----------



## Pioneer10

PauloCatarino said:


> Hmmm...
> From all the famed "good supoorting cast" Kobe Bryant has, i just don't see it.
> 
> The Lakers have 3 good defenders on their roster who play meanungfull minutes: Kobe, Ariza and Bynum. After AB went down, the Lakers have probably the softest frontcourt, defensive-wise, from all the top teams. Yes, Odom is a good rebounder. And Pau is a good scorer. Buy none of them can defend.
> Fisher and Walton are average to mediocre starters (the later more than the former), and neither one can create his own shot.
> Farmar and Sasha are playing poorly. And they aren't good players to begin with. Powell and MBenga? Meh. Sun and Brown?
> 
> I said it before and i'll say it again: without AB, when push comes to shove, the Lakers would need all the luck in the world to win it all. It's not like AB is Hakeem, or something. Is that he is the sole post player the Lakers have that can provide impact on both sides of the court.
> 
> To sum it up: Kobe has Pau, who is an adept scorer, Odom, who is a good rebounder, and Fisher, who can still deliver some. The rest of the roster? Meh.


I think offensively the Lakers are very talented plus and this is always something that people forget is that there talent fits what they want to in that offense. Even a guy like Walton who'd be useless on a lot of NBA players fit the triable very well with his ability to post and pass.


----------



## Drewbs

Lakers are definitely more talented than the Cavs, but I don't really think that means Kobe definitely has a better supporting cast.

The Lakers are probably the only top team in the league that can score 110+ and still lose on a consistent basis (in terms of when they're losing of course, which hasn't really been often this season). The fact that their frontcourt is still so soft defensively really holds them back, and the fact that the Cavs frontcourt is so good defensively really lets them play better than the sum of their parts.

and are people seriously considering Wade an MVP candidate? Incredible, lets forget for a moment that the Heat are currently 5th in the conference and take a look at the fact that they are only on pace to win about 45 games, and have not had a meaningful win in about a month. Kobe didn't even get to sniff the MVP trophy the year his team (which started Kwame Brown and Smush Parker) won 45 games in a very competitive western conference, while he broke scoring records like cheap glass.


----------



## DNKO

*Point differential between team's leading scorer and second leading scorer:*

Wade: 29.0, Beasley: 13.3 *(15.7)*
James: 28.3, Williams: 17.5 *(10.8)*
Bryant: 28.0, Gasol: 18.5 *(9.5)*

*Percentage of team's points scored*

Wade: 29/96.8 *(30%)*
James: 28.3/100 *(28.3%)*
Bryant: 28/108.8 *(25.7%)*

*Percentage of team's points generated through points and assists* (counting each assist as two points, for simplicity sake)

Wade: 29/7.4 = 43.8 pts. generated out of 96.8 team pts. *(45.2%)*
James: 28.3/7.0 = 42.3 pts. generated out of 100 team pts. *(42.3%)*
Bryant 28/5.3 = 38.6 pts. generated out of 108.8 team pts. *(35.5%)*

(To follow up on this last stat, I read today that in four games last week Wade actually scored or assisted on an unreal *59%* of his team's points....)

Wade = clear MVP.


----------



## Blue

I got Wade as the best right now too. Too bad his team wont have the record though......


----------



## DNKO

He's clearly on something in last 6 games...

35.0 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 10.3 apg, 2.3 spg, 1.5 bpg, 55.3 FG%, 95.0 FT%, 40.0 mpg


----------



## futuristxen

Wade won't get it. His team sucks too much. And we know if he was on a better team he wouldn't put those numbers up(we have history to show us this fact). Whereas both Kobe and Lebron put up big numbers AND their teams win.

And for as marvelous as Wade's numbers are this year, they are not as good as Lebron and Kobe's best years, where they were also on teams that won over 50 games. 

The only way Wade would get it is if the media just don't want to give Lebron another MVP.

Wade and Lebron's numbers are almost identical. Except Lebron's team is 15 games better. That by itself knocks Wade out, without even bringing Kobe in.

The way Kobe gets the MVP is if he wins the scoring title, and finishes with the best team in the league. Which right now he's essentially tied with Lebron record wise, while putting up worse numbers. Lebron leads Kobe in every statistical category right now, with team records that are basically the same. And even if Kobe passes Lebron in scoring, it won't be by much. That's why he'll also need to have the best record.

I think Kobe and Lebron are really what it comes down to. And I could see the media deciding to give Kobe his second MVP. Lebron needs to either get the best record, or maintain his statistical dominance, while still being close in team record.


----------



## Diable

It's fine with me if you want to add up points and assists and say that equals MVP,but that doesn't equal Wade.


----------



## futuristxen

DNKO said:


> He's clearly on something in last 6 games...
> 
> 35.0 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 10.3 apg, 2.3 spg, 1.5 bpg, 55.3 FG%, 95.0 FT%, 40.0 mpg


What as the heat record over those 6 games? I know they are 5-5 in their last ten compared to the Cavs and Lakers being 7-3.


----------



## myst

futuristxen said:


> Wade won't get it. His team sucks too much. And we know if he was on a better team he wouldn't put those numbers up(we have history to show us this fact).


Why do people talk when they don't know what they are talking about?

05-06: 27.6, 6.7, 5.7, 1.9, 0.8, .495
08-09: 29.0, 7.4, 5.0, 2.1, 1.4, .486


So, the year he wins a championship, his numbers are slightly worse. But yet, we have a history to show us this FACT? Sure thing, Wade only puts up great numbers when his team sucks.


----------



## Pioneer10

myst said:


> Why do people talk when they don't know what they are talking about?
> 
> 05-06: 27.6, 6.7, 5.7, 1.9, 0.8, .495
> 08-09: 29.0, 7.4, 5.0, 2.1, 1.4, .486
> 
> 
> So, the year he wins a championship, his numbers are slightly worse. But yet, we have a history to show us this FACT? Sure thing, Wade only puts up great numbers when his team sucks.


lol. I think you just proved future's point. 
No one was saying Wade's numbers would be BAD if he was on a better team but they're probably slightly inflated.

In any case, Wade is having a MVP calibre year in and in any normal year he'd be at the top but Lebron's year so far has been truly special in terms of numbers.
On a per possession basis his numbers are ridiculous.As good as Wade's numbers are and they are terrific (one of the best ever for a SG!), Lebron is even better: slightly better but it's across the board. More efficient at scoring, less TO's, and more rebounds while scoring and assiting at same rate.


----------



## Brandname

Wade is playing great this year. He's probably having the 2nd best year in the league individually. 

The only problem is that the guy who is having a better individual season is also leading his team to the best record in the conference. Wade has played well this year, but he's nowhere near Lebron in the MVP race.


----------



## futuristxen

myst said:


> Why do people talk when they don't know what they are talking about?
> 
> 05-06: 27.6, 6.7, 5.7, 1.9, 0.8, .495
> 08-09: 29.0, 7.4, 5.0, 2.1, 1.4, .486
> 
> 
> So, the year he wins a championship, his numbers are slightly worse. But yet, we have a history to show us this FACT? Sure thing, Wade only puts up great numbers when his team sucks.


Um...That scoring difference is the difference between leading the league and being third. And his assist numbers would be well below Lebron's numbers as well. If you don't see those numbers as a big dropoff then I don't know what to tell you.

Here's Lebron's numbers when he was on a ****ty team:
30.0 7.9, 7.2, 1.8, 1.1 .484

Think he won the MVP that year?


----------



## Luke

DNKO said:


> *Point differential between team's leading scorer and second leading scorer:*
> 
> Wade: 29.0, Beasley: 13.3 *(15.7)*
> James: 28.3, Williams: 17.5 *(10.8)*
> Bryant: 28.0, Gasol: 18.5 *(9.5)*
> 
> *Percentage of team's points scored*
> 
> Wade: 29/96.8 *(30%)*
> James: 28.3/100 *(28.3%)*
> Bryant: 28/108.8 *(25.7%)*
> 
> *Percentage of team's points generated through points and assists* (counting each assist as two points, for simplicity sake)
> 
> Wade: 29/7.4 = 43.8 pts. generated out of 96.8 team pts. *(45.2%)*
> James: 28.3/7.0 = 42.3 pts. generated out of 100 team pts. *(42.3%)*
> Bryant 28/5.3 = 38.6 pts. generated out of 108.8 team pts. *(35.5%)*
> 
> (To follow up on this last stat, I read today that in four games last week Wade actually scored or assisted on an unreal *59%* of his team's points....)
> 
> Wade = clear MVP.




It just becomes more and more clear that you don't have any idea how the MVP is voted in with every post.

You do realize that when Kobe dropped an astounding 35.4/5/4.5 in one of the toughest West's we've ever seen with Smush, Luke Walton, and Kwame starting he didn't get the MVP when his team won as many games as the Heat are on pace for?

What about Lebron, when he put up his incredible 30/8/7 year last year but didn't get it.

It would be beyond stupid if Wade won it this year do to past players getting shafted.

Personally, I think that the system is stupid, and team record plays a to important role, but it is what it is and so far the MVP is clearly Lebron, there is no debate. (Though Kobe is making some strides.)


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Mike Brown says Wade should definately be in the MVP discussion.

I get the team record thing though, even if it does defeat the purpose of "MVP" somewhat..


----------



## hendrix2430

Of course he should be in the discussion. The fact that the "best record rule" is being followed *so strictly* is ridiculous IMO. See Steve Nash for example.


----------



## Luke

NewAgeBaller said:


> Mike Brown says Wade should definately be in the MVP discussion.
> 
> I get the team record thing though, even if it does defeat the purpose of "MVP" somewhat..


He should but he shouldn't; If I could have it my way, as long as you lead you're team to the playoffs you should be considered eligable to be a legitament MVP canidate, but sinse the league robbed Kobe and Lebron of their respective MVP's, then it would be unfair for Wade to win it this year if that makes any sense.


----------



## Ras

DNKO said:


> *Point differential between team's leading scorer and second leading scorer:*
> 
> Wade: 29.0, Beasley: 13.3 *(15.7)*
> James: 28.3, Williams: 17.5 *(10.8)*
> Bryant: 28.0, Gasol: 18.5 *(9.5)*
> 
> *Percentage of team's points scored*
> 
> Wade: 29/96.8 *(30%)*
> James: 28.3/100 *(28.3%)*
> Bryant: 28/108.8 *(25.7%)*
> 
> *Percentage of team's points generated through points and assists* (counting each assist as two points, for simplicity sake)
> 
> Wade: 29/7.4 = 43.8 pts. generated out of 96.8 team pts. *(45.2%)*
> James: 28.3/7.0 = 42.3 pts. generated out of 100 team pts. *(42.3%)*
> Bryant 28/5.3 = 38.6 pts. generated out of 108.8 team pts. *(35.5%)*
> 
> (To follow up on this last stat, I read today that in four games last week Wade actually scored or assisted on an unreal *59%* of his team's points....)
> 
> Wade = clear MVP.


Don't you think there's a correlation between Wade needing to score most of his teams points and him having a worse team overall, and therefore, less wins?


----------



## Brandname

If the award were based only on individual performance this year it'd be:

1) Lebron
2) Wade
3) Kobe

If it takes team record into account, it's

1) Lebron
2) Kobe
3) Wade

I prefer the individual performance weighting, provided that the team is good enough to make the playoffs, but we know that the voters more heavily weigh wins than anything else. So I still feel that Wade will probably finish 3rd in the race. He's having a phenomenal season, much like Kobe and Lebron have the past couple of seasons, but if you look at how it's been awarded historically, it would have to be extremely inconsistent voting by the voters to give him the award (not that inconsistency is out of the question with those morons).


----------



## DNKO

Wade is clearly the best player in the NBA.

The fact that James is playing with marvelous sidekicks is another issue.

But skill wise, he definitely doesn't have anything on Wade. Anything. Except maybe his mesmerizing 3-step move.


----------



## Brandname

DNKO said:


> Wade is clearly the best player in the NBA.
> 
> The fact that James is playing with marvelous sidekicks is another issue.
> 
> But skill wise, he definitely doesn't have anything on Wade. Anything. Except maybe his mesmerizing 3-step move.


Any other year, Wade's season would be far and away the best in the league. What he's doing this year individually is truly historic. The fact that it is the 2nd best individual season this year really shows how special of a time this is in the NBA. We're watching some truly special talent, and it's easy to lose sight of that.


----------



## DNKO

No actually it's the best individual season, but nice try.


----------



## Brandname

DNKO said:


> No actually it's the best individual season, but nice try.


You've been wrong before. Why stop now? 

Go add more Lebron videos to your youtube account. :lol:


----------



## kflo

DNKO said:


> No actually it's the best individual season, but nice try.


says you.


----------



## DNKO

Brandname said:


> You've been wrong before. Why stop now?
> 
> Go add more Lebron videos to your youtube account. :lol:


And YOU'VE been wrong before, so why stop now too?










We can go back and forth all day like this. 

but I won't.


Oh and yeah - I know that you're probably a bit sour (or maybe you're not, I wouldn't be surprised) at the fact that your favorite player doesn't seem to understand basketballs oldest and most basic rule, but believe me, I was doing editing for my blog, searching for Ben Gordon interview...

And that came up...so how funny it is that on a totally random note, I see a highlight of him, from NBA documentary, and he travels in that one scene, while talking about being in the zone?

You can deny it all you want. Facts are indisputable.

He even traveled in Nike commercial. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEdMrZ16xTo
But hey - that's me finding hateful material, right. Power to you. Living in denial is your choice, not mine.

But I know you have mediocre standards therefore James being probably best traveling violator in the league doesn't bother you cos I can imagine how you play basketball, you probably take it even one step further...

When I was growin up, I stuck my tongue out like MJ....I guess kids nowday get a Bruce Willis Die Hard W haircut and travel 4-5 steps in pickup games.

MJ even dribbled the ball in a freaking dunk contest, I guess these guys today don't even bother to do it in the game...

I guess I'll have to get along with the times.


----------



## Blue

Actually, Chris Paul is having the best individual season statistically. Between Lebron & Wade, he's the better 3pt shooter of the 3... better overall FG%.. most spg of the 3.. most apg by a good margin, yet the least tpg.. 'pound-for-pound' the better rebounder.. easily the best FT%.. only area he's lacking in is bpg, but pound-for-pound he's been the best player.

http://www.basketball-reference.com...2009&p3=bryanko01&y3=2009&p4=paulch01&y4=2009


----------



## Ras

DNKO said:


> Wade is clearly the best player in the NBA.
> 
> The fact that James is playing with marvelous sidekicks is another issue.
> 
> But skill wise, he definitely doesn't have anything on Wade. Anything. Except maybe his mesmerizing 3-step move.


What does Wade have on LeBron?



Also, are you really surprised by the responses you get when you treat your opinion like it's a fact? Also, when you say things like this...



> What really makes me laugh is how some of you try to leave this impression as a holy unbiased judges of the game and how if YOU say something that's 100% unbiased but if someone else differs that's biased.


....yet at the same time, say things like this....



> No actually it's the best individual season, but nice try.


...it comes off funny. I realize you claim you're biased like we all are, but how can you say that, and then say you're 100% right, and the other people are wrong?


----------



## myst

> That brings us to Wade. He won’t clear 50 wins. But he’s brought this team from the ashes, answered his critics, has them in line for the playoffs, some quality wins, and his numbers are off the charts. Points, rebounds, assists, steals, and even blocks. He’s done more with less, and he’s doing it by setting crowds on fire and leading a young team.
> 
> I’m starting to believe Dwyane Wade may really be the 2008-2009 MVP.


http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/03/03/youre-either-lions-or-lamb/


----------



## Ras

myst said:


> http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/03/03/youre-either-lions-or-lamb/


Considering the history of the award, I don't think it'd be fair to change the criteria completely now. If that was the case, LeBron should've won in years past averaging 30/7/7, or Kobe should have won when he was averaging 35 a night. Both had their teams in the playoffs, but they weren't top teams, so they weren't going to get it. Same goes here.


----------



## kflo

Ras said:


> Considering the history of the award, I don't think it'd be fair to change the criteria completely now. If that was the case, LeBron should've won in years past averaging 30/7/7, or Kobe should have won when he was averaging 35 a night. Both had their teams in the playoffs, but they weren't top teams, so they weren't going to get it. Same goes here.


more importantly, they lost to clearly inferior players who had a big impact leading their teams to a high seed. here, you have comparable players with comparable numbers, with the biggest differentiator team performance.


----------



## DNKO

myst said:


> http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/03/03/youre-either-lions-or-lamb/


I realized many times....it's not what are you saying...it's how you say it.

I wish I copy pasted this blog before I typed a word.

He basically said what I wanted to say in a very elegant, non-arrogant, eloquent manner.

Thanks for the link.


----------



## Ras

DNKO said:


> I realized many times....it's not what are you saying...it's how you say it.
> 
> I wish I copy pasted this blog before I typed a word.
> 
> He basically said what I wanted to say in a very elegant, non-arrogant, eloquent manner.
> 
> Thanks for the link.


Does this mean you don't have any interest in responding to what I said, or am I just jumping the gun?


----------



## Luke

If Wade does win the MVP, (Which to me, he deserves as much as LeBron at this point) then the league would have to take away both of Nash's MVP's and give then to Shaq and then Kobe respectivly, take Dirk's give it to Kobe or possibly Lebron (I'd pick Kobe, but then again i'm a Lakers fan, and although it's pretty close, I think Kobe deserved it a bit more) and then take Kobe's from last year and give it to LeBron.


----------



## Diable

Why do you keep saying the league should do this or that?The league has almost nothing to do with MVP's.All they do is hand the winner a trophy.MVP's are voted on by sportswriters who have MVP votes.The league doesn't give you an MVP and the league sure as hell can't take one away.


----------



## Luke

Diable said:


> Why do you keep saying the league should do this or that?The league has almost nothing to do with MVP's.All they do is hand the winner a trophy.MVP's are voted on by sportswriters who have MVP votes.The league doesn't give you an MVP and the league sure as hell can't take one away.


Alright, then if the sports writers vote Wade MVP, then THEY should give them to Shaq/Kobe/LeBron.

It would be hypocritical to do otherwise.


----------



## hendrix2430

VanillaPrice said:


> If Wade does win the MVP, (Which to me, he deserves as much as LeBron at this point) then the league would have to take away both of Nash's MVP's and give then to Shaq and then Kobe respectivly, take Dirk's give it to Kobe or possibly Lebron (I'd pick Kobe, but then again i'm a Lakers fan, and although it's pretty close, I think Kobe deserved it a bit more) and then take Kobe's from last year and give it to LeBron.


as drastic as that would sound, I'd sign the petition lol


----------



## hendrix2430

right now, IMO, it is.

1-Lebron
2-Kobe
3-Dwight Howard
4-Wade

I also think it will end up that way most likely.


----------



## Luke

hendrix2430 said:


> right now, IMO, it is.
> 
> 1-Lebron
> 2-Kobe
> 3-Dwight Howard
> 4-Wade
> 
> I also think it will end up that way most likely.


In terms of how the voters actually vote, then I think that you are dead on.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

VanillaPrice said:


> If Wade does win the MVP, (Which to me, he deserves as much as LeBron at this point) then the league would have to take away both of Nash's MVP's and give then to Shaq and then Kobe respectivly, take Dirk's give it to Kobe or possibly Lebron (I'd pick Kobe, but then again i'm a Lakers fan, and although it's pretty close, I think Kobe deserved it a bit more) and then take Kobe's from last year and give it to LeBron.


Dirk's MVP trophy was well deserved.


----------



## futuristxen

Why does Wade deserve the MVP again? Statistically he's not better than Lebron. And then Lebron's team is winning a whooollllle lot more. Seems like Lebron has his bases covered. Plus they are winning the season series against Wade's team. It seems like any measure you want to choose Lebron should get the MVP over Wade.

Now if you add in Kobe, that's where it gets tricky. Kobe isn't having a better statistical season than either player, but his team is just a shade better than Lebron's, and he's won the season series on both guys. So if you only vote on team achievement for the MVP(which is how it's been voted the past three years) then Kobe wins the MVP. If you combine Team Achievement and Personal Achievement, then Lebron should win pretty easily.


----------



## Basel

Actually, Kobe hasn't won the season series against Wade - each team won at home.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt

Basel said:


> Actually, Kobe hasn't won the season series against Wade - each team won at home.


With the Lakers win including a controversial outcome.


----------



## rayz789

DNKO said:


> Wade is clearly the best player in the NBA.
> 
> The fact that James is playing with marvelous sidekicks is another issue.
> 
> But skill wise, he definitely doesn't have anything on Wade. Anything. Except maybe his mesmerizing 3-step move.


Clearly the best player? How you figure that? Cause he took his Heat to the playoffs with the roster he got? Lol come on man you killing me.


----------



## DNKO

Wade isn't playing alone. It takes a TEAM effort.

Miami doesn't have ALL the right pieces, yet.

I'm watching Phoenix - Miami game. 

Wade is the most exciting player to watch point blank period.

For me. I don't know (or care) about anyone else.


----------



## Luke

DNKO said:


> Wade isn't playing alone. It takes a TEAM effort.
> 
> Miami doesn't have ALL the right pieces, yet.
> 
> I'm watching Phoenix - Miami game.
> 
> Wade is the most exciting player to watch point blank period.
> 
> For me. I don't know (or care) about anyone else.


Again, you never cease to amaze me with you're logic; Now Wade is the MVP because he's the most exciting player for you personally to watch.

Got it.


----------



## DNKO

Wade = best player in the NBA.

MVP = I don't know. I'll say it after 82 games.


----------



## MrJayremmie

It would be a travesty if LeBron didn't win the MVP, imo. I think he is having the 2nd best (or maybe *the* best w/ Wade, i'm not sure) statistical season in the NBA, I think he is the best player in the NBA, and he has his team playing GREAT bball with an extremely good record. I really think he fits all the criteria possible (I think that best player is obviously arguable though, but one can make an arguement for about 3 maybe 4 players as the best in the NBA, and LeBron is definitely one of them).

Kobe would be 2nd (because team record), then probably Wade or Dwight... then probably my boy CP3.

Edit - OK, LeBron is having the best statistical year, followed closely by Wade.

LeBron is at 28.5ppg, 7.4rpg, 7apg at 49.2% FG in 37.4mpg. 1.72spg, 1.2bpg, 3.05TO.
Wade is at 29.3ppg, 5rpg, 7.5apg at 48.9% FG in 38.3mpg. Also, 2.2 spg, 1.42bpg, 3.47TO.


----------



## myst

> By most numerical analyses, the three players listed below are about equal. Player A is the best rebounder; Players A and B distribute the ball better and block more shots than Player C, who in turn, is the best scorer of the bunch.
> 
> (These are the 36-minute averages for the three best players in the National Basketball Association, and their Player Efficiency Rating compiled by ESPN's John Hollinger.)
> 
> Player A 27.5 points, 49.0% shooting percentage, 7.1 rebounds, 6.7 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.2 blocks, 31.84 PER.
> 
> Player B 27.5 points, 48.7%, 4.7 rebounds, 7.0 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.3 blocks, 29.76 PER.
> 
> Player C 27.8 points, 47.4%, 5.5 rebounds, 4.9 assists, 1.3 steals, 0.4 blocks, 25.48 PER.
> 
> Yet, three-quarters of the way through the regular season, Player A (Cleveland's LeBron James) and Player C (the Lakers' Kobe Bryant) are the only ones being seriously considered for the league's most valuable player honour. Player B, Miami guard Dwyane Wade, is a distant third in the minds of most.
> 
> Wade and the Heat play in Toronto tomorrow night and, there is a compelling case to be made that the most important player to his team in the NBA this season will be in the Air Canada Centre.
> 
> James and Bryant are leading the MVP chatter because of their teams' success -- heading into last night's games they were the conference leaders. Wade's Miami team is just 31-28, a record good enough for fifth place in a top-heavy Eastern Conference.





> Need proof of Miami's lack of talent aside from Wade? Look no further than his 50-point performance on Feb. 22 in Orlando, a game the Heat still managed to lose by 23 points.
> 
> And when comparing the three megastars, do not forget this: For Bryant's three rings, for all of James' highlights and unnatural stat lines, only one of the players has been the MVP of the NBA Finals.





> THE BIG 10:
> 
> With 75% of the season gone, this is the National Post's 10-player ballot for the league's most valuable player:
> 
> 1. LeBron James, Cleveland
> 
> 2. Dwyane Wade, Miami
> 
> 3. Kobe Bryant, L. A. Lakers
> 
> 4. Dwight Howard, Orlando
> 
> 5. Chris Paul, New Orleans
> 
> 6. Tim Duncan, San Antonio
> 
> 7. Chauncey Billups, Denver
> 
> 8. Yao Ming, Houston
> 
> 9. Kevin Garnett, Boston
> 
> 10. Brandon Roy, Portland


http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/story.html?id=1354586


----------



## Brandname

Barring injury, there is pretty much no way Wade will win MVP over Lebron. Which is a bit unfortunate for Wade since he's having a great season, but this has already happened to Kobe and Lebron a couple years ago. 

Kobe probably doesn't have a big shot unless Lebron goes down with injury or the Cavs start slumping in a major way. If the Lakers and Cavs are within 5 or so games of each other, the award will certainly go to Lebron.

Interesting to note that Dwight's name stopped being mentioned as much when Jameer went down. Which doesn't make sense because Jameer shouldn't have anything to do with how valuable Dwight is. It should tell us that something is weird in the way we're thinking about MVP.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

That's because the Magic's offense (& Defense) has looked very rough since Nelson went down, as evidence of a 11-8 record since.


----------



## Brandname

Prolific Scorer said:


> That's because the Magic's offense (& Defense) has looked very rough since Nelson went down, as evidence of a 11-8 record since.


Right, that's kind of my point. As far as I know, Howard's been doing his thing all season. Something completely unrelated to him made him a 'less valuable' player? I can see the argument that he's not getting the ball as well without Jameer, but his dropoff in my opinion seems to be based only on the team's worse record without Jameer. Which on the surface has nothing to do with Dwight's 'value'.


----------



## myst

Brandname said:


> Interesting to note that Dwight's name stopped being mentioned as much when Jameer went down. Which doesn't make sense because Jameer shouldn't have anything to do with how valuable Dwight is. It should tell us that something is weird in the way we're thinking about MVP.


That is why team record shouldn't affect the MVP. It should be how much the candidate does with the team he has. If Lebron has 57 wins, and Wade has 45 wins, Lebron should get MVP according to most people. But, if Lebron has a 55 win team, and he takes them to 57 wins, but Wade takes a 30 win team to 45 wins, then who deserves MVP? Wade should suffer because the GM didn't put talent around him? He doesn't get to choose who he plays with, so it's not fair to judge somebody on that. Wade is having a better season then Dwight, but a lot of people have Dwight ahead because of his record, when Dwight has been pretty much the same the last few season, just the team around him has gotten better, so all of a sudden hes an MVP candidate? Yeah, that makes sense.


----------



## hendrix2430

myst said:


> That is why team record shouldn't affect the MVP. It should be how much the candidate does with the team he has. If Lebron has 57 wins, and Wade has 45 wins, Lebron should get MVP according to most people. But, if Lebron has a 55 win team, and he takes them to 57 wins, but Wade takes a 30 win team to 45 wins, then who deserves MVP? Wade should suffer because the GM didn't put talent around him? He doesn't get to choose who he plays with, so it's not fair to judge somebody on that. Wade is having a better season then Dwight, but a lot of people have Dwight ahead because of his record, when Dwight has been pretty much the same the last few season, just the team around him has gotten better, so all of a sudden hes an MVP candidate? Yeah, that makes sense.


Record _should_ affect the MVP, just not as much as it does now. 

Having (mostly) supbar teamates, he has to take a lot of shots and has to have the ball go through him all the time, so it's not surprising his stats are great (see Lebron eversince this year, Kobe 2-3 years ago).

Being able to have this kind of impact (and stats) with a loaded team is even more impressive, which is what Kobe and Lebron are doing right now. At the same time they are clearly elevating the play of their teamates. That's impressive. That's why those guys are ahead at this point.

Wade has been better than Howard this season, that's not even a debate. However, I wouldn't be surprised if he comes in 3rd in the MVP with Wade coming in 4th, because of Orlando's record.

But *I don't doubt for a second* Wade wouldn't be able to do that as well. The circumstances simply are what they are, right now...he has very average teamates, and unless he leads his team to 55-60 wins, he probably won't win the MVP.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

myst said:


> That is why team record shouldn't affect the MVP. It should be how much the candidate does with the team he has. If Lebron has 57 wins, and Wade has 45 wins, Lebron should get MVP according to most people. *But, if Lebron has a 55 win team, and he takes them to 57 wins*, but Wade takes a 30 win team to 45 wins, then who deserves MVP? Wade should suffer because the GM didn't put talent around him? He doesn't get to choose who he plays with, so it's not fair to judge somebody on that. Wade is having a better season then Dwight, but a lot of people have Dwight ahead because of his record, when Dwight has been pretty much the same the last few season, just the team around him has gotten better, so all of a sudden hes an MVP candidate? Yeah, that makes sense.


Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly but are you saying that the Cavs without Lebron could win 55 games?

Or are you just saying a broad example. Cause Lebron is certainly worth more than 2 wins to the Cavs, probably more like 20+ wins to be honest.


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## DNKO

Wade is still on the streak.

What about James?


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## myst

Benedict_Boozer said:


> Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly but are you saying that the Cavs without Lebron could win 55 games?
> 
> Or are you just saying a broad example. Cause Lebron is certainly worth more than 2 wins to the Cavs, probably more like 20+ wins to be honest.


I see how you could misinterpret what I said so let me explain. At the beginning of the season, how many wins would you guess the Cavs would have? My guess is 55, and they will probably win around 57. What about the Heat? The predictions were anywhere from 25-40, and I assumed maybe a little over 30. Lebron is taking a 55 win team to 57 or higher wins with his great play. Wade is taking a non-playoff seed to possibly homecourt advantage in the playoffs. 


But using what you said, without Lebron the Cavs win 40 games probably, so a 17-20 game improvement. Without Wade the Heat win less then 20 games, so he has around a 25 game improvement. Lebron is having one of the best seasons I have ever witnessed, but Wade is doing more with less while putting up better numbers. He is the MVP imo even though he won't get it.


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## Brandname

DNKO said:


> Wade is still on the streak.
> 
> What about James?


Wade playing great. Lebron still #1 in MVP race.

Pretty simple.


----------



## Adam

Brandname said:


> Wade playing great. Lebron still #1 in MVP race.
> 
> Pretty simple.


It's an 82 game season. LeBron is choking away his MVP award like those guys in your avatar. 

If he doesn't raise his game to what it was pre-allstar then he does not deserve the award over Wade, and I have said all season that LeBron was the clear #1.


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## ChrisRichards

It's between Wade and LeBron at this point. The media will give it to Bron though because of the elite team status.


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## DNKO

And he's doing all that with 54% shooting which is silly, and, 2.5 steals and of course, first among guards in blocked shots, 1.3.


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## Brandname

The '93 Heat said:


> It's an 82 game season. LeBron is choking away his MVP award like those guys in your avatar.
> 
> If he doesn't raise his game to what it was pre-allstar then he does not deserve the award over Wade, and I have said all season that LeBron was the clear #1.


You said it yourself, it's an 82 game season. Bron's had the better season than Wade, despite tonight. Both individually and from a team standpoint.


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## Adam

Brandname said:


> You said it yourself, it's an 82 game season. Bron's had the better season than Wade, despite tonight. Both individually and from a team standpoint.


I was going to say (decided to delete it) that if they both maintain their current form and their teams maintain their current form then Wade should best him. LeBron's performance has dipped since the all-star break and Cleveland's has as well. He really is losing this award because he was like Usain Bolt sprinted far in front of the pack and it wasn't close despite what everyone thought.


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## Brandname

The '93 Heat said:


> I was going to say (decided to delete it) that if they both maintain their current form and their teams maintain their current form then Wade should best him. LeBron's performance has dipped since the all-star break and Cleveland's has as well. He really is losing this award because he was like Usain Bolt sprinted far in front of the pack and it wasn't close despite what everyone thought.


He's played well since the all star break. I have no idea what you're talking about.


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## Adam

Brandname said:


> He's played well since the all star break. I have no idea what you're talking about.


His stats are lower post all-star than pre. I have no idea what you're talking about.


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## Brandname

The '93 Heat said:


> His stats are lower post all-star than pre. I have no idea what you're talking about.


He's been playing great except for tonight. Honestly, Wade has no chance at the MVP this year. Lebron's just been better.


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## 77AJ

D Wade has been better than LeBron post all star break. There is no debate in that. LBJ has had some really bad showings since the All Star game in really meaningful games. Kobe Bryant with a flu out played James, and the Lakers snapped the Cavs home court win streak, and LBJ's showing was horrible. 

Tonight a short handed Celtics toppled the Cavs and LBJ was pretty putrid. 

About a week ago Ron Artest/Battier and Yao Ming punked LeBron James, probably one of his worst showings in a long time, they held LeBron shooting percent to something ugly, and LBJ had zero assists, and only one rebound. 

I can't say D Wade has had those kind of terrible performances since the all star break.

Good thing for all of us NBA fans, is that LBJ will have something to prove after being horrible in Boston, tomorrow night in Cleveland vs. guess who ? That's right you named it D Wade, and the Heat.

My opinion on the game Look for D Wade to get a lot of assists, no doubt the Cavs will be doubling him from the get go, the Cavs fear the Wade.


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## ChrisRichards

Brandname said:


> He's been playing great except for tonight. Honestly, Wade has no chance at the MVP this year. Lebron's just been better.


WOOOAH there, woah

Wade has been just as good if not better than LeBron statistically.

the big edge LeBron has to win the MVP is team record, elite status.


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## Adam

Brandname said:


> He's been playing great except for tonight. Honestly, Wade has no chance at the MVP this year. Lebron's just been better.


Wade _wasn't_ the MVP at the all-star break, so what did he do? He came back and decided that he was going to go out and _take_ the award from LeBron like Nick Anderson stealing the ball from Jordan.

Wade, Pre all-star and post all-star (9 games):

28.3 PPG 7.0 APG 5.0 RPG 2.1 SPG 1.4 BPG 47.8 FG%
35.8 PPG 10.9 APG 5.4 RPG 2.8 SPG 1.4 BPG 55.7 FG%


Compare that to LeBron who has come out since the all-star game (9 games) and performed worse than he did the whole season:

28.5 PPG 7 APG 7.5 RPG 1.8 SPG 1.3 BPG 49.1 FG%
28.0 PPG 6.4 APG 6.8 RPG 1.0 SPG 0.9 BPG 49.7 FG%

Neither players' stats reflect tonight's games where Wade got 42 points and 8 assists and LeBron went 5-15 for 21 points.

The Cavs have also lost 2 games when they only lost 12 all season despite injuries. They also just barely eeked out wins against Miami and Atlanta. They just got waxed on national television against Boston who didn't even have KG when this was probably the most important game Cleveland has played all season.

What we're seeing in this race is the equivalent of Asafa Powell making up a 3 yard distance against Usain Bolt. You're trying to argue that LeBron just has to show up and he wins the award, and I find that a very disappointing sentiment and I don't think that you could really believe that.


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## Pioneer10

Cavs have played a rough stretch with 4 games in 5 nights recently and 6 out of the last 7 on the road. MVP is for the whole season and Lebron has been better the whole season and his team has been a whole lot better as well. Wade of course is also having a great season and a great stretch but this happens over a long season players go thru ebbs and flow. It's not like Lebron has been bad particularly since they did beat Wade's Heat on the last game of a 4 in 5


----------



## Cap

This is still LeBron's to lose, but he'll definitely lose it if the Cavs take a dive (which I guess could happen with Ben out, but Smith is a nice big replacement). LeBron's play can probably suffer too and he'll still win the MVP, but it can't suffer a whole lot. Cavs are still a very sketchy road team for some reason, that needs to change to secure an MVP. 

And honestly, I'll be pleasantly surprised if Wade finishes out the season. Poor guy is always getting injured.


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## Diable

Numbers aren't going to get you there alone.As good Wade as been he still hasn't been better than Chris Paul.Noone is talking about CP for MVP because they're claiming his team is underachieving.You guys can talk all you want about how many more games Miami won compared to last year,but last year they were engaged in one of the most shameful tank jobs in recent history.They won a lot more games than they tried to win last year so that's just a big load of crap.


----------



## Adam

Diable said:


> Numbers aren't going to get you there alone.As good Wade as been he still hasn't been better than Chris Paul.Noone is talking about CP for MVP because they're claiming his team is underachieving.You guys can talk all you want about how many more games Miami won compared to last year,but last year they were engaged in one of the most shameful tank jobs in recent history.They won a lot more games than they tried to win last year so that's just a big load of crap.


I know that you're doing your usual schtick of taking whatever we're talking about and turning it into a Bocats/Chris Paul discussion but this failed horribly.


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## 77AJ

If D Wade plays the rest of the season out on his current clip he will pass LeBron in every stat, he will pass LeBron in Per, as D Wade has already leaped over Paul in per. Plus if D Wade can carry the Heat to the 4th position in the standings for home court in the playoffs, and the Heat get 50 wins. The MVP is Wades. And at this point it will make a much more interesting story than either Kobe or LeBron winning the MVP. That's how dazzling D Wade is playing basketball right now, and how much the Heat are over achieving.


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## NewAgeBaller

23AJ said:


> I can't say D Wade has had those kind of terrible performances since the all star break.


Wade's worst game since all-star break has been 21 points, 10 assists, 3 steals..



Cap said:


> And honestly, I'll be pleasantly surprised if Wade finishes out the season. Poor guy is always getting injured.


I don't care too much for the MVP award, or atleast havn't recently, but it'd mean a lot for Wade after his substantial development as a player, having to carry this team, and all his rehab. He seems to want it too, despite putting team-first or wateva, so I hope he atleast gets consideration for the win (not for some 



23AJ said:


> If D Wade plays the rest of the season out on his current clip he will pass LeBron in every stat, he will pass LeBron in Per, as D Wade has already leaped over Paul in per. Plus if D Wade can carry the Heat to the 4th position in the standings for home court in the playoffs, and the Heat get 50 wins. The MVP is Wades. And at this point it will make a much more interesting story than either Kobe or LeBron winning the MVP. That's how dazzling D Wade is playing basketball right now, and how much the Heat are over achieving.


If it were up to me, if a superstar can carry a drastically below-average team (without them) to the play-offs, they should merit MVP consideration. That is arguably the case for Wade (MVP consideration), but when you're playing the best basketball in the league (perhaps with Lebron), a 3rd-6th and "no chance of winning" isn't real great either.

If Wade takes his team to 4th in the East, as he's very close to doing, he shouldn't be penalised for team record near as much as people are doing. Its clear we're not close to the best team in the league, and Wade would have carried us into the Top 4 of the conference with (I believe) noone else having scored over 20 points till Beasley a few nights ago. That would be ridiculous for any of the other top teams.

Wade just became the 3rd player ever in NBA history to average 40+ points to go with 10+ assists over a 7 day period of 4+ games, and if he continues at his pace will be the first player since Michael Jordan to average 30+ ppg at over 50% FG for the season (he's at 29.5 ppg and 49.4% right now).

I don't think its absurd to say if Lebron (and the Cavs) finish the season off with a less impressive stretch (relatively) while Wade continues at this pace (best player since all-star break by far, and arguably even before it), and is able to gain the 4th seed in the East, that the gap would have narrowed substantially. Lebron has the media in his hand right now with MVP voting but Wade's play will hopefully get him recognition.

And don't say again that "the league would then owe Lebron and Kobe MVP awards from previous years", thats obviously not what I'm arguing.

I've said all season that its Lebrons to lose, but I'm starting to believe *Wade* is just about right up there as a real candidate (even if the media doesn't see so).


----------



## Ras

You just need the wins and you need to be a top team, which Miami won't be. It's as simple as that. That has defined MVP for years, and years. I don't see how you can change the criteria now.

Also, Dwyane Wade has been phenomenal since the all-star break, I can't deny that. But, everyone does have hot stretches. I honestly don't expect him to play with these numbers consistent through to the end of the season, but if he does I will be pleasantly surprised. I think it would take a real big slip up from the Cavs and LeBron personally for him to lose, which I don't expect. They're bound to win 60 games while Miami is bound to finish below 50. Considering the criteria of past winners, I don't really see how Dwyane could win.


----------



## Diable

The '93 Heat said:


> I know that you're doing your usual schtick of taking whatever we're talking about and turning it into a Bocats/Chris Paul discussion but this failed horribly.


So you're the one who decides who gets to be discussed as an MVP candidate?Then explain to us how Paul hasn't been just as good and just as valuable as anyone in the NBA except for Lebron James.If you can't talk about Chris Paul then you can't talk about anyone else either.


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## Basel

Wade deserves it as much as LeBron & Kobe (in my opinion) but he won't win it for the same reasons that Kobe & LeBron didn't win it a few years ago.


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## Brandname

The '93 Heat said:


> Wade _wasn't_ the MVP at the all-star break, so what did he do? He came back and decided that he was going to go out and _take_ the award from LeBron like Nick Anderson stealing the ball from Jordan.
> 
> Wade, Pre all-star and post all-star (9 games):
> 
> 28.3 PPG 7.0 APG 5.0 RPG 2.1 SPG 1.4 BPG 47.8 FG%
> 35.8 PPG 10.9 APG 5.4 RPG 2.8 SPG 1.4 BPG 55.7 FG%
> 
> 
> Compare that to LeBron who has come out since the all-star game (9 games) and performed worse than he did the whole season:
> 
> 28.5 PPG 7 APG 7.5 RPG 1.8 SPG 1.3 BPG 49.1 FG%
> 28.0 PPG 6.4 APG 6.8 RPG 1.0 SPG 0.9 BPG 49.7 FG%
> 
> Neither players' stats reflect tonight's games where Wade got 42 points and 8 assists and LeBron went 5-15 for 21 points.
> 
> The Cavs have also lost 2 games when they only lost 12 all season despite injuries. They also just barely eeked out wins against Miami and Atlanta. They just got waxed on national television against Boston who didn't even have KG when this was probably the most important game Cleveland has played all season.
> 
> What we're seeing in this race is the equivalent of Asafa Powell making up a 3 yard distance against Usain Bolt. You're trying to argue that LeBron just has to show up and he wins the award, and I find that a very disappointing sentiment and I don't think that you could really believe that.


Wade has played great individual basketball. I'm not doubting that. He and Lebron have been very close individually this year, with Lebron having a slight edge. However, he's not going to come close to getting MVP. Bron has the individual performance and the wins.

Heat fans are just going through the same thing Cavs and Lakers fans have been going through the past few years.


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## ChrisRichards

Brandname said:


> Heat fans are just going through the same thing Cavs and Lakers fans have been going through the past few years.


nah, i'm fine. I have known all along that Wade isn't going to win the MVP. The HEAT have to be elite status for that to happen, so i'm fine with it


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## NewAgeBaller

Brandname said:


> Wade has played great individual basketball. I'm not doubting that. He and Lebron have been very close individually this year, with Lebron having a slight edge. However, he's not going to come close to getting MVP. Bron has the individual performance and the wins.
> 
> Heat fans are just going through the same thing Cavs and Lakers fans have been going through the past few years.


Did the Lebron-Cavs or Kobe-Lakers finish 4th in their conference? Thats not rhetorical, I'm actually asking.

Records aside, even if this sounds counter-productive, I think being in the Top 4 teams of your conference (and gaining HCA) means something.

Anyway, I know precedent so if the media thinks the MVP has to come from one of the Top 3 or 4 teams, fine.


----------



## Ras

NewAgeBaller said:


> Did the Lebron-Cavs or Kobe-Lakers finish 4th in their conference? Thats not rhetorical, I'm actually asking.
> 
> Records aside, even if this sounds counter-productive, I think being in the Top 4 teams of your conference (and gaining HCA) means something.
> 
> Anyway, I know precedent so if the media thinks the MVP has to come from one of the Top 3 or 4 teams, fine.


The Cavaliers were 3rd in the east in 05/06 with 50 wins, and LeBron was averaging 31 ppg/7 rpg/6.6 apg/48 FG%. Steve Nash beat him (though I think it's quite odd that the Suns only had 54 wins and were 3rd in the West themselves. It was like no matter what happens, Nash was going to win).

The Cavs were also 2nd in the east in 06/07. The Lakers were never actually higher then 6th until last year, but they were in the West as well.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

I never realised how good that Cavs team was then. I'd always thought they were around the 4th/5th seed.

And yea, Nash's 2x MVP's quite changed the MVP system..


----------



## Brandname

NewAgeBaller said:


> Did the Lebron-Cavs or Kobe-Lakers finish 4th in their conference? Thats not rhetorical, I'm actually asking.
> 
> Records aside, even if this sounds counter-productive, I think being in the Top 4 teams of your conference (and gaining HCA) means something.
> 
> Anyway, I know precedent so if the media thinks the MVP has to come from one of the Top 3 or 4 teams, fine.


Yeah, like Ras said, the Cavs finished 3rd with 50 wins. 

4 wins was enough to give Steve Nash the MVP over Lebron. 4 wins.


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## Prolific Scorer

I don't think it was just the 4 wins that got Nash that MVP...

That plus his numbers were up from the season before, and the fact that Amare Stoudemire was out pretty much the whole season is what got him that 2nd MVP IMO.


----------



## Ras

Prolific Scorer said:


> I don't think it was just the 4 wins that got Nash that MVP...
> 
> That plus his numbers were up from the season before, and the fact that Amare Stoudemire was out pretty much the whole season is what got him that 2nd MVP IMO.


I found it strange that Amare being out helped his campaign. He was out, they lost more games and weren't as good of a team. The correlation is in that. If they lost the same amount of games, I'd understand a bit, but even then, it would probably take a whole team effort to do that.


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## kflo

steve nash was also the beneficiary of reduced expectations. his teams expectations were much lower because the expectations of him are much lower. when his team then exceeds those expectations, he reaps the rewards. that helped him win 2 mvp's when other guys wouldn't. that, and the other top players weren't on top teams (kobe/lebron) or didn't have top seasons (duncan/shaq).


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## Sir Patchwork

The '93 Heat said:


> I know that you're doing your usual schtick of taking whatever we're talking about and turning it into a Bocats/Chris Paul discussion but this failed horribly.


He is right. Chris Paul has been as good as anyone. Him and Wade won't win though because their teams aren't at the top and their story isn't that much more interesting than any other year.


----------



## HB

I'll keep this short, if I were to pick the MVP right now, I'd give it to Deron Williams, what he has done with that team, especially in leu of Boozer and AK's injury concerns cannot be understated. Amazing how he didnt make the all star team.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

HB said:


> I'll keep this short, if I were to pick the MVP right now, I'd give it to Deron Williams, what he has done with that team, especially in leu of Boozer and AK's injury concerns cannot be understated. Amazing how he didnt make the all star team.


The only reason he didn't make the AS team was because he missed around 14-15 games to start the season. 

That borderline puts you out of the MVP conversation also. I can't imagine there have been that many MVP's awarded to guys missing more than a handful of games to injury.


----------



## Diable

You can't be an MVP when you miss that many games and your team wins nearly all of those games.That's pretty much proof that you're not the most valuable player.At any rate when you examine the jazz statistically Williams has less impact than Kirilenko and Okur on that team's performance.He simply looks like one piece among many when you make any logical examination of their success.The Jazz didn't just win when Williams was out,they also won when he was shooting horribly and playing nowhere near as well as he is now.All their record goes to prove is that they're an extremely deep and well coached team.


----------



## Luke

HB said:


> I'll keep this short, if I were to pick the MVP right now, I'd give it to Deron Williams, what he has done with that team, especially in leu of Boozer and AK's injury concerns cannot be understated. Amazing how he didnt make the all star team.


MVP of the Jazz right?


----------



## 77AJ

The first LeBron James media guy just came out on NBA TV, and said in his opinion D Wade is the number one guy for MVP of the season. That guy is Eric Snow. D Wades star continues to rise, his tenacious defense, and game ending buckets, and huge numbers are just taking the world by storm.


----------



## DNKO

Stop being on D Wade's ______ so much!

So he hit a shot, big deal, I bet more props should go to the DEFENSE that allowed him to shot it!

Think about it...if Bulls played better D...would he made that shot? See...


----------



## ChrisRichards

DNKO the flip flopper


----------



## bball2223

DNKO said:


> Stop being on D Wade's ______ so much!
> 
> So he hit a shot, big deal, I bet more props should go to the DEFENSE that allowed him to shot it!
> 
> Think about it...if Bulls played better D...would he made that shot? See...



Hey I'll play devils advocate too. 


-If players in the 80's weren't such poor defenders MJ wouldn't have amounted to anything on the NBA level.:sarcasm:


-If players weren't so short in the 60's Wilt would have never scored 100 or averaged 50 in a season. :sarcasm:


Wade deserves all the props he is getting now. Dude has been the best player in the league by a good margin since the AS break.


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## ChrisRichards

actually, jordan played in the toughest defensive era in nba history


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## DNKO

Flip flopper? No. I'm the...TRUTH.

Wade needs to come home to Bulls.

THEN.........we can work our differences out.


----------



## bball2223

ChrisRichards said:


> actually, jordan played in the toughest defensive era in nba history


You obviously missed the sarcasm smiley I placed after that statement.


----------



## DNKO

Let's not get angry here fellas.

This thread is about Wade pissing us off.


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## rocketeer

wade is doing everything he can to take the mvp away from lebron. he might have a shot at doing it(or at least deserving it). the voters are probably going to look at wade's team that trails lebron's by 15 wins right now and not give him votes though whether he's deserving or not.


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## Basel

I'll be absolutely ****ing stunned if Dwyane Wade wins MVP.


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## OneBadLT123

I have been on the LeBron is MVP this year wagon for the most part of the season. It was his to lose, but the way Wade has been playing not only after the all star break, but all year its hard to count him out. I dont see how LeBron is the clear MVP here. Right now I dont think its his to lose, it more like between a select few players. 

Wade has been having an amazing offensive and defensive season. One of which none of us have seen in many, many years. Everyone wrote the Heat off in the offseason, and only a select few actually gave them a chance. You could see it in the Olympics, that Wade was going to have a monster year.

Right now, nobody is playing better than Wade. Not even if you count all season. As great as Lebron as been, something about Wade makes your jaw drop. How he is carrying that team on his back, and doing it the way he's done it is something neither Kobe or Lebron have done in their careers. 

Right now in my honest opinion, I feel the award is Wade's. I consider myself a MVP traditionalist. I firmly stand for the the MVP once stood for, and not for what it has become. 

Game after game, you cant not be amazed as what he is doing. If you aren't, then you just aren't watching him play. Simple as that.


----------



## rocketeer

Basel said:


> I'll be absolutely ****ing stunned if Dwyane Wade wins MVP.


would you be stunned if he deserved it though? the mvp doesn't seem to go to who actually deserves it most.


----------



## Basel

rocketeer said:


> would you be stunned if he deserved it though? the mvp doesn't seem to go to who actually deserves it most.


Of course not; he definitely deserves to be in the discussion for it. But if LeBron & Kobe couldn't win it a few years ago doing what they did, Wade's not going to win it this year. And if he does, I can't wait to hear what the media has to say since they will all have suddenly changed their minds on how MVP should be defined.


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## 77AJ

Basel said:


> Of course not; he definitely deserves to be in the discussion for it. But if LeBron & Kobe couldn't win it a few years ago doing what they did, Wade's not going to win it this year. And if he does, I can't wait to hear what the media has to say since they will all have suddenly changed their minds on how MVP should be defined.


IMO I don't believe Kobe or LeBron in the recent years they were in contention for the MVP (or won Kobe) have put together the offensive and defensive numbers that D Wade is putting up right now, I also know that neither were as efficient as D Wade is this season. One more point to make, the season still has to play out, D Wades and the Heat star may continue to rise it may not, but at this point if you go by it will, I believe the Heat get between 47-50 wins, and D Wade finishes with 30 PPG on 50% from the field, averaging 8 Assists , 6 Rebounds, plus 2.5 steals per game, and nearly 2 blocks per game. Again those are just my projections. At this point D Wade has already leaped passed Chris Paul in PER, and IMO will pass LeBron in PER. All of the above stats and scenario haven't been accomplished by any perimeter player since Michael Jordan. All the stars will have to align for Wade to get the MVP no question, but Wades history post all star break make's me a believer.


----------



## rocketeer

23AJ said:


> IMO I don't believe Kobe or LeBron in the recent years they were in contention for the MVP (or won Kobe) have put together the offensive and defensive numbers that D Wade is putting up right now, I also know that neither were as efficient as D Wade is this season. One more point to make, the season still has to play out, D Wades and the Heat star may continue to rise it may not, but at this point if you go by it will, I believe the Heat get between 47-50 wins, and D Wade finishes with 30 PPG on 50% from the field, averaging 8 Assists , 6 Rebounds, plus 2.5 steals per game, and nearly 2 blocks per game. Again those are just my projections. At this point D Wade has already leaped passed Chris Paul in PER, and IMO will pass LeBron in PER. All of the above stats and scenario haven't been accomplished by any perimeter player since Michael Jordan. All the stars will have to align for Wade to get the MVP no question, but Wades history post all star break make's me a believer.


wade would have to be absolutely ridiculous to get to some of those stats you predict. he'd have to average 8.75 rebounds for the rest of the season to get to 6 per game and almost 4 blocks a game to get up to 2 per game for the year.


----------



## 77AJ

rocketeer said:


> wade would have to be absolutely ridiculous to get to some of those stats you predict. he'd have to average 8.75 rebounds for the rest of the season to get to 6 per game and almost 4 blocks a game to get up to 2 per game for the year.


Exactly it's high expectations, but that's the projections based on Wades stats since all star break. Like I said this could all be moot, and D Wade may come back down to earth a bit, but honestly I don't know maybe what were seeing post all star break is the player D Wade has matured into, and will always be. Only time will provide us with the answer on this one.


----------



## futuristxen

23AJ said:


> IMO I don't believe Kobe or LeBron in the recent years they were in contention for the MVP (or won Kobe) have put together the offensive and defensive numbers that D Wade is putting up right now, I also know that neither were as efficient as D Wade is this season. One more point to make, the season still has to play out, D Wades and the Heat star may continue to rise it may not, but at this point if you go by it will, I believe the Heat get between 47-50 wins, and D Wade finishes with 30 PPG on 50% from the field, averaging 8 Assists , 6 Rebounds, plus 2.5 steals per game, and nearly 2 blocks per game. Again those are just my projections. At this point D Wade has already leaped passed Chris Paul in PER, and IMO will pass LeBron in PER. All of the above stats and scenario haven't been accomplished by any perimeter player since Michael Jordan. All the stars will have to align for Wade to get the MVP no question, but Wades history post all star break make's me a believer.


And what happens if Lebron ticks up his game just slightly to 29/8/7/2/1.5 on 50% shooting, and his team wins the best record in the NBA(65 wins?)? And finishes with the best PER? You'd give it to Wade for less than a steal and a block extra per game?


----------



## 77AJ

futuristxen said:


> And what happens if Lebron ticks up his game just slightly to 29/8/7/2/1.5 on 50% shooting, and his team wins the best record in the NBA(65 wins?)? And finishes with the best PER? You'd give it to Wade for less than a steal and a block extra per game?


Yes at this point in time I would give it to D Wade if he had the stats I projected and a 50 win team over what you posted up above. Like I said earlier though only time will give us the answer at this point. What' is real is that LB-J is no longer leading a one man race it's a virtual tie between 3 guy's right now, and I believe D Wade has all the thunder.


----------



## futuristxen

23AJ said:


> Yes at this point in time I would give it to D Wade if he had the stats I projected and a 50 win team over what you posted up above. Like I said earlier though only time will give us the answer at this point. What' is real is that LB-J is no longer leading a one man race it's a virtual tie between 3 guy's right now, and I believe D Wade has all the thunder.


Honestly. Who really cares though? Lebron needs to start winning championships. MVPs are so arbitrary, the only thing they can't steal from you is a ring.


----------



## 77AJ

futuristxen said:


> Honestly. Who really cares though? Lebron needs to start winning championships. MVPs are so arbitrary, the only thing they can't steal from you is a ring.


That I agree with, LBJ and Kobe should have a few MVP's already, much like I believe if D Wade keeps up his current clip of playing should have an MVP for this season. Will see how it shakes out. Also LB has a great shot at a ring this year, good luck to your Cavs, I'll be rooting for the Magic or Celtics to come out of the East though.


----------



## rocketeer

23AJ said:


> Yes at this point in time I would give it to D Wade if he had the stats I projected and a 50 win team over what you posted up above. Like I said earlier though only time will give us the answer at this point. What' is real is that LB-J is no longer leading a one man race it's a virtual tie between 3 guy's right now, and I believe D Wade has all the thunder.


it's a two man race. lebron is in the lead, wade is trying to catch up.


----------



## 77AJ

rocketeer said:


> it's a two man race. lebron is in the lead, wade is trying to catch up.


I disagree, Kobe is right there, plus he's out played LB-J in both match ups, Lakers knocked hte Cavs off in Cleveland, something nobody else has done. The Lakers, and Kobe beat the Celtics, a team that has two different times made LB-J look very pedestrian this season. Also Kobe's game has gone up a notch since Bynum went down. No doubt in my mind it's a 3 man race that is in a virtual tie. However D Wade has all the thunder right now. So it's apparent we will have to agree to disagree about who's in the running , and where they stand for MVP consideration at this point in the season. Good luck to what ever guy you like the best, and feel's deserves it.


----------



## SamTheMan67

rocketeer said:


> it's a two man race. lebron is in the lead, wade is trying to catch up.


Yep, If the cavs choke badly and wade hits 50 wins maybe he would win.. but Lebrons prob the defacto MVP just because of last year and 06's gauwdy numbers and we all know the MVP is more like the "we shoulda given it to you a couple years ago but let me make up for it" award


----------



## croco

Miami won't come close to 50 wins, they would have to go 16-3 the rest of the way which is absolutely unrealistic. They will wind up with 43 or 44 wins which won't be enough to be in the discussion for anyone no matter how well you are playing.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

If Dwyane Wade is possible for MVP then it's really a 4 man race. Chris Paul has every bit the resume that Wade does. 12th in scoring, 1st in assists, 2nd in ast/to ratio, 1st in steals, and despite what you would assume, Chris Paul is every bit as good of a rebounder and has been his whole career.

Of course, it's really a two man race. It will be LeBron or Kobe.


----------



## DNKO

The tables have turned..............


----------



## NewAgeBaller

SamTheMan67 said:


> Lebrons prob the defacto MVP just because of last year and 06's gauwdy numbers and we all know the MVP is more like the "we shoulda given it to you a couple years ago but let me make up for it" award


truth.


----------



## hendrix2430

Lebron is my favorite player, but if Wade has managed to carry this cast to 55 wins, he would deserve the MVP IMO. He can still get to 47-48 wins, but that's not enough IMO. With that said, great season by Wade.


----------



## Brandname

hendrix2430 said:


> Lebron is my favorite player, but if Wade has managed to carry this cast to 55 wins, he would deserve the MVP IMO. He can still get to 47-48 wins, but that's not enough IMO. With that said, great season by Wade.


Well there are 19 games left in Miami's season. To get to 55 wins, Wade would have to win them 22 of those 19 games.

I know Wade's pretty amazing, but even I think that's a little beyond his capabilities.

I love how Wade has played, but anyone who's being honest with himself knows this really is a 2 man race given how MVP voting is done, and neither of those 2 guys is Wade. Barring a major collapse by the Cavs and Lakers and Miami winning the rest of their games for the season, Lebron or Kobe will get the award, with Lebron having a major advantage at this point. 

Assuming the Cavs beat the Clippers tonight, they're going to be tied for the best record in the league. A lot of people were up in arms that the Cavs' second best player made the last slot on the all star team. They said he wasn't good enough. And individually, Lebron has had the best season in the league (although Wade is very close right now). Given that, I'm not sure how you could justify giving it to the guy whose team is on pace to win 44 games over the guy whose team is on pace to win 65 games. It's totally inconsistent with how MVP voting goes.

And it's not like Dwyane has even played better than Lebron individually this year, excluding all the good team requirements.


----------



## hendrix2430

Had the Heat won more games up to this point, then he may have been able (still unlikely) to carry this cast to 55 wins...is what I meant. 

In fairness, the talent of Wade's cast (although *underrated*) is inferior to Lebron's and even moreso to Kobe's, so it wouldn't be fair to expect him to have a similar record as those two.

His season is very much like the ones Lebron had prior to this year. In order for this team to perform at its highest potential, he has to have the ball go through him all the time, hence the big time stats. 

Lebron doesn't handle the ball or shoot quite as much, yet has virtually identical stats. Plus, he's the best defender on the best defensive team. That's why he's my pick for MVP. 

Props to D Wade though, he's been amazing. I wonder if Ben Wallace's expiring and a couple 1sts would make him a Cav next year.  (awaiting rocks thrown by Heat fans...lol)




Brandname said:


> Well there are 19 games left in Miami's season. To get to 55 wins, Wade would have to win them 22 of those 19 games.
> 
> I know Wade's pretty amazing, but even I think that's a little beyond his capabilities.
> 
> I love how Wade has played, but anyone who's being honest with himself knows this really is a 2 man race given how MVP voting is done, and neither of those 2 guys is Wade. Barring a major collapse by the Cavs and Lakers and Miami winning the rest of their games for the season, Lebron or Kobe will get the award, with Lebron having a major advantage at this point.
> 
> Assuming the Cavs beat the Clippers tonight, they're going to be tied for the best record in the league. A lot of people were up in arms that the Cavs' second best player made the last slot on the all star team. They said he wasn't good enough. And individually, Lebron has had the best season in the league (although Wade is very close right now). Given that, I'm not sure how you could justify giving it to the guy whose team is on pace to win 44 games over the guy whose team is on pace to win 65 games. It's totally inconsistent with how MVP voting goes.
> 
> And it's not like Dwyane has even played better than Lebron individually this year, excluding all the good team requirements.


----------



## Brandname

hendrix2430 said:


> Had the Heat won more games up to this point, then he may have been able (still unlikely) to carry this cast to 55 wins...is what I meant.
> 
> In fairness, the talent of Wade's cast (although *underrated*) is inferior to Lebron's and even moreso to Kobe's, so it wouldn't be fair to expect him to have a similar record as those two.
> 
> His season is very much like the ones Lebron had prior to this year. In order for this team to perform at its highest potential, he has to have the ball go through him all the time, hence the big time stats.
> 
> Lebron doesn't handle the ball or shoot quite as much, yet has virtually identical stats. Plus, he's the best defender on the best defensive team. That's why he's my pick for MVP.
> 
> Props to D Wade though, he's been amazing. I wonder if Ben Wallace's expiring and a couple 1sts would make him a Cav next year.  (awaiting rocks thrown by Heat fans...lol)


Yeah, that's what I figured you meant. If Wade could have done that, he would get a lot more MVP consideration, but he wasn't able to. Nothing against him, but it's kind of a moot point.

I think you're pretty much agreeing with me when I said Heat fans are going through what Cavs and Lakers fans have been through the past couple years. Guy doing amazing things on an average team (Lebron's and Kobe's teams even won more back then though), but still not going to win MVP. I'd rather them give it only on individual performance, in which Lebron would edge out Wade by a narrow margin right now with Kobe or Paul following behind, but it's also largely based on wins. So I don't see Wade finishing above Bron or the Kobester.


----------



## Ras

23AJ said:


> Yes at this point in time I would give it to D Wade if he had the stats I projected and a 50 win team over what you posted up above.


I don't understand this. If LeBron has the exact same stats (save for half a block or steal here and there) while having 15 more wins, putting his team at 65 wins, how can you give it to Wade? That would mean LeBron is basically doing exactly what Wade is doing, except his team is at 65 wins instead of 50. Where's the justification for Wade?



> the Celtics, a team that has two different times made LB-J look very pedestrian this season


LeBron dropped 38 points/7 rebounds/6 assists/4 steals/3 blocks on over 50% shooting on the Celtics this year, you can't just ignore that. I'm assuming one of the games you're referring to is the season opener, where he put up 22/7/6/2/1 on close to 50% shooting. I wouldn't exactly say that's pedestrian. LeBron's only had one rough game against Boston this year.


----------



## Diable

I find it hard to believe that Kobe can win it at this point.The only argument he has is team record and his team record is the same as Lebron's.At this point there's a pattern to the Lakers' losses and that's Kobe shooting 10-30 with a couple of assists and a couple rebounds and some turnovers.In fact in all of these games Gasol is scoring about the same as Kobe and taking half as many shots,while grabbing a bunch of rebounds.His only chance would be to win substantially more games than Lebron,because you can't argue that he's been as good unless you're delusional.


----------



## kflo

in losses (13 games): 

kobe: 33 ppg / 6.5 rpg / 4.7 apg/ 2.8 to / 54% ts%
lebron : 26 / 6.7 / 7.0 / 4.2 to / 51% ts%

lebron should get the award. but lets not invent reasons.


----------



## Adam

The problem in this thread is that people are making the mistake in assuming MVP = Best player in the league. It does not. The MVP is the player who is most valuable to the league and his team. There's not just two factors (stats and wins). There's dozens of factors and they range from legitimate to extremely subjective. 

You're kidding yourself if you think characteristics like how hard somebody jams or how strong they are in the post don't matter (see Charles Barkley). If the MVP was the best player in the league then Jordan would have won every single year he was in the NBA.

There's something to be said for the way the MVP is chosen, despite all the complaining. A large random sample of accomplished sports writers from all over the country all cast their votes. Their votes are meant to be subjective. They're meant to vote based on how much buzz the player has in the country (see Kobe last year. His first award meant a hell of a lot more to the basketball world and the NBA than a LeBron MVP even though LeBron had far better stats). Why is that a good thing? Because they're picking the player most valuable to the league. The player who has so much worth at that moment that he is most valuable to the league. It's a combination of anything and everything subjective. How white his teeth are. How well he looks in khaki. How often has he been on SNL. It's everything. And when they've cast their votes the MVP will be the person who embodies the skills and the charisma of the league. It's not a best player in the league award and there's no reason to attack the process either.

Dirk Nowitzki was absolutely not the best player when he won the award. But was he the most valuable player to the NBA? Absolutely. What an enormous opportunity to be able to give a European the MVP award. That's going to be talked about 100 years from now. You don't think people wanted him to win because he was European? It definitely was a factor. It was definitely there and I'm glad it was. We're picking a player to represent the league. They're not picking a player from some 30-52 team in OKC. We're picking the guy who inspires millions to become better than him.



Edit: And there's no doubt that LeBron deserves the award this year.


----------



## ChrisRichards




----------



## DNKO

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2009/03/10/nba_20090310_fannight2.nba/

Ahmad knows what's he's saying.


----------



## OneBadLT123

DNKO said:


> http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2009/03/10/nba_20090310_fannight2.nba/
> 
> Ahmad knows what's he's saying.


lol nice one..

Miami vs New Orleans. Both Wade and Paul are out. Who wins? Hornets
Miami vs Cleveland. Both Wade and James are out. Who wins? Cavs
Miami vs LA. Both Wade and Kobe are out. Who wins? Lakers

hmmm


----------



## clien

OneBadLT123 said:


> lol nice one..
> 
> Miami vs New Orleans. Both Wade and Paul are out. Who wins? Hornets
> Miami vs Cleveland. Both Wade and James are out. Who wins? Cavs
> Miami vs LA. Both Wade and Kobe are out. Who wins? Lakers
> 
> hmmm


Miami vs New Orleans. Both Wade and Paul are *PLAYING*. Who wins? Hornets(89 - 100)
Miami vs Cleveland. Both Wade and James are *PLAYING*. Who wins? Cavs (104 -95)
Miami vs LA. Both Wade and Kobe are *PLAYING*. Who wins? Lakers (105 - 108)

..just sayin


----------



## Basel

clien said:


> Miami vs New Orleans. Both Wade and Paul are *PLAYING*. Who wins? Hornets(89 - 100)
> Miami vs Cleveland. Both Wade and James are *PLAYING*. Who wins? Cavs (104 -95)
> Miami vs LA. Both Wade and Kobe are *PLAYING*. Who wins? Lakers (105 - 108)
> 
> ..just sayin


You do realize the Heat have beaten both the Lakers & Cavs as well this season and still play the Hornets again in April. Just saying.


----------



## Pioneer10

Even when Lebron's "slumping" in the MVP race he is adding triple doubles 31/13/11 tonight and basically carried a lifeless Cavs teams to a win that they really didn't deserve. He's going to win and deserves to win this year.


----------



## OneBadLT123

Basel said:


> You do realize the Heat have beaten both the Lakers & Cavs as well this season and still play the Hornets again in April. Just saying.


Man you stole my thunder. I was going to post the exact same thing.


----------



## Basel

Pioneer10 said:


> Even when Lebron's "slumping" in the MVP race he is adding triple doubles 31/13/11 tonight and basically carried a lifeless Cavs teams to a win that they really didn't deserve. He's going to win and deserves to win this year.


Yeah, I agree he's going to win. I'd honestly be very, very surprised if he didn't. This is his year.


----------



## Basel

OneBadLT123 said:


> Man you stole my thunder. I was going to post the exact same thing.


:basel2:


----------



## NewAgeBaller

The thing I sort of don't agree with is people saying its a two-man race essentially, between Lebron & Kobe. Imo, its more of a two-man race between Lebron & D Wade.

And I don't disrespect Kobe at all, I just think in a combination of; 

(1) the player most valuable to their team
(2) the player playing best ball individually
(3) team record, and
(4) media love & attention

that Dwyane Wade is the 2nd best player in the league right now. Also given Kobe received the award last season, that might factor in too. And although the awards over the entire season (Wade's been great all season too ofcourse), his play of late has really sparked interest and the 2nd half of the season is more important than the 1st.

Or maybe I'm just having trouble looking past Bynum (though injured), Gasol, Odom and the others, to give Kobe the award over the other two players who are imo more essential to their team and playing better ball individually.

And when I say this "two-man race" I'm talking about who is imo deserving, not what has been precedent or wateva.


----------



## Hibachi!

Kobe hasn't even come close to putting up the all-around games that LeBron and Wade have been putting up. IMO it's between LeBron and Wade at this point, and if Wade cools off, LeBron will be running against nobody for the MVP. Granted you could argue he has to do less because of his team, but that was the argument against KG last year.

I mean, when you see LeBron or Wade put up 35-40, you'll also expect to see 7 or 8 assists, 5 or 6 rebounds, a couple of steals and blocks. When you see Kobe put up 35-40, you can pretty much bank on that that being the only main thing he did. All around, nobody does more for their team than these two, not even CP3.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

> *Lebron James -*
> 
> "To me,'' James said, "the way you judge an MVP is if you take a guy off their team, who struggles the most? Like last year. If you took Kobe off the Lakers or Chris Paul off the Hornets, who's struggling the most? It's the Hornets, right? But everyone has their own set of rules. Other people look at it as an individual thing. They go for numbers. Now, if you were looking at strictly the team last year, then that means either Paul Pierce or Kevin Garnett should have won it.
> 
> "So I don't know what the [MVP] voters want. But whatever they're looking for, I'm pretty sure D-Wade has it.''
> 
> -
> 
> *Kobe Bryant -*
> 
> "I'd make the same case for Dwyane that people used to make for me when I was on a team that didn't have a lot of talent and we still managed to get to the playoffs,'' Bryant said. "People don't realize how difficult it is to do literally everything to get your team in.''



- _Miami Herald_


I like both these approaches.


----------



## futuristxen

To be fair, when has Lebron ever big upped himself in an interview?


----------



## HB

As much as I think Deron's been underrated, Lebron is the MVP of the league. I dont see how voters can justify not giving a guy whose team is going to have 55-60 wins and the best record in the ECF, maybe the league the award. 

Wade's been fantastic, but Bron is just as important to his team.


----------



## Planet_Orange

1) Wade
2) Lebron
3) Kobe

.. enough said.


----------



## Brandname

HB said:


> As much as I think Deron's been underrated, Lebron is the MVP of the league. I dont see how voters can justify not giving a guy whose team is going to have 55-60 wins and the best record in the ECF, maybe the league the award.
> 
> Wade's been fantastic, but Bron is just as important to his team.


55-60 wins would be a disastrous end to the season for the Cavs.

55 wins: They would have a 5-14 finish to the season
60 wins: They would have a 10-9 finish to the season

Since I don't expect them to play Clipper-ball or even .500 basketball from here on out, I think we're looking at 65 or so wins from the team with a guy who is having a historic individual season.

Barring disaster, I really think he's got this thing on lockdown.


----------



## HB

^Well I figure there's 19 games left, lets say realistically they win the next 10. It will get to a point that the coach starts resting his players. So yeah 10-9 sounds about right.


----------



## croco

HB said:


> ^Well I figure there's 19 games left, lets say realistically they win the next 10. It will get to a point that the coach starts resting his players. So yeah 10-9 sounds about right.


You are fighting and clawing for home-court advantage all year long to forfeit it in the last few games ? The Cavs remaining schedule is also rather easy, they won't have to waste a lot of energy in some of those games.


----------



## Brandname

I don't think the Cavs will be resting any players down the stretch of the regular season.


----------



## Diable

Unless the lakers and Celtics both go into big losing streaks Cleveland is going to do whatever they have to do to secure HCA.It's vitally important to them since they are a much better team at home...Obvious enough since only one of their losses was in cleveland.


----------



## Hibachi!

Yeah, HCA won't be solidified until the last few games.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

Brandname said:


> 55-60 wins would be a disastrous end to the season for the Cavs.
> 
> 55 wins: They would have a 5-14 finish to the season
> 60 wins: They would have a 10-9 finish to the season
> 
> Since I don't expect them to play Clipper-ball or even .500 basketball from here on out, I think we're looking at 65 or so wins from the team with a guy who is having a historic individual season.
> 
> Barring disaster, I really think he's got this thing on lockdown.


Hmm I would argue that 65 wins won't be enough to get HCA over the Lake-Show. 

I can't see the Lakers dropping more than 3-4 games tops the rest of the season even with all their road games. CLE will need about a 17-2 or 16-3 finish to realistically lock it up because LA has the tie breaker.

*Btw it's pretty insane to talk about this years CLE team winning 65+ games. That is some serious over-achieving...would be the best team in franchise history pretty much.


----------



## clien

You can't say anyone is a "lock" or anyone is out of the running at this point, u need to wait til the season is over to dismiss anyone. Wade is hot right now, Kobe was hot after he beat the cavs n celts on their home floor...it's all about who is fresh in the memories of the voters when the time to vote comes about, in the mean time players put up numbers and wins, or whatever else may get the attention of the fans and media to establish their candidacy.

Kobe, Lebron, and Wade..it will be one of these 3. Whoever makes the most noise in the final couple weeks of the season will win the MVP


----------



## futuristxen

The Cavs have been really amazing this year. This was a 45 win team last year. And they could be a 65 win team this year. And they only added Mo Williams in the offseason. And have done it without Z, Delonte, and Ben all at various points since December.


----------



## kflo

it's almost absurd to think of the cavs winning 65 or so games, lebron finishing with a PER over 31, and him NOT winning mvp. 

wade has been amazing, and deserves a ridiculous amount of credit for his season. he's not undeserving. but that doesn't mean he should win. lebron almost has to win.


----------



## croco

futuristxen said:


> The Cavs have been really amazing this year. This was a 45 win team last year. And they could be a 65 win team this year. And they only added Mo Williams in the offseason. And have done it without Z, Delonte, and Ben all at various points since December.


And it's not just wins. The Cavs had a point differential of -0.4 last year, this year they are +9.3.


----------



## myst

futuristxen said:


> The Cavs have been really amazing this year. This was a 45 win team last year. And they could be a 65 win team this year. And they only added Mo Williams in the offseason. And have done it without Z, Delonte, and Ben all at various points since December.


So they ONLY added an all-star?

Hmm, let me go through the all-star rosters and decide who Wade can play with, and then downplay the effect they have.


----------



## myst

From a Sacramento writer?



> The Miami Heat had the NBA's worst record last season at 15-67. Now it is fifth in the Eastern Conference with a 34-29 record. Usually, that's not a mark from which MVPs are bred.
> 
> However, that's only if you've not had the privilege of watching Dwyane Wade consistently.
> 
> Wade is putting on a nightly show that cannot be believed unless it is seen. Get this: Wade recently joined former Kings guard Nate Archibald and former Cincinnati and Milwaukee all-timer Oscar Robertson as the only NBA players to average 40 points and 10 assists over a four-game span.
> 
> Wade's performances have been more visually impressive than his numbers suggest. The guy has come back from an injury-plagued 2007-08 season to take no shorts from the likes of Cleveland's LeBron James, Los Angeles' Kobe Bryant or Orlando's Dwight Howard regardless of their teams' superior records.
> 
> Wade spent February averaging 50.2 percent from the field, 84.4 percent from the free-throw line, 1.9 steals, 1.3 blocks, 4.8 rebounds, 8.7 assists and 30.9 points.
> 
> In March, he's been better. He's shooting 59.3 percent overall, 58.3 percent from three-point range and 77.1 percent from the line while averaging 3.4 steals, 1.2 blocks, 6.6 rebounds, 11.4 assists and 38.2 points.
> 
> He has scored 41 or more in five of his past nine games.
> 
> Durability has been a problem during his six NBA seasons, as he's played 61 or fewer games in three. Last season he missed 31 games, but this season he has played in all 63.
> 
> For years, Bryant has been considered by most as the league's best player. However, that no longer is a given. Many assumed James was the heir to Bryant's throne, but no one is playing better than D-Wade.


http://www.sacbee.com/martymac/story/1689090.html


----------



## kflo

myst said:


> So they ONLY added an all-star?
> 
> Hmm, let me go through the all-star rosters and decide who Wade can play with, and then downplay the effect they have.


shawn marion was an all-star. till he got to the heat.


----------



## 77AJ

kflo said:


> shawn marion was an all-star. till he got to the heat.


That's an asinine statement. A lot of those Suns were great playing in Mike D's system. Hell the two time MVP, and all star Steve Nash was also an all star in that system, was he this year ? NO he wasn't. Stop trying to down play the fact Wade has a significantly worse roster than any of the other MVP candidates. LeBron nor Kobe would trade their next top 2 players on their teams for anyone on the Heat bar D Wade.


----------



## kflo

23AJ said:


> That's an asinine statement. A lot of those Suns were great playing in Mike D's system. Hell the two time MVP, and all star Steve Nash was also an all star in that system, was he this year ? NO he wasn't. Stop trying to down play the fact Wade has a significantly worse roster than any of the other MVP candidates. LeBron nor Kobe would trade their next top 2 players on their teams for anyone on the Heat bar D Wade.


actually, it was a true statement.


----------



## Ras

myst said:


> So they ONLY added an all-star?
> 
> Hmm, let me go through the all-star rosters and decide who Wade can play with, and then downplay the effect they have.


To be fair, I think he was the second injury replacement, and even then, there probably other players out there just as deserving; he's an all-star because of LeBron and Cleveland. If he stayed on Milwaukee, he probably never would've sniffed an all-star game.

Besides, this is all semantics; Wade isn't going to win when Lebron is putting up more or less the same numbers and leading a team to 65+ wins, especially when Wade won't even crack 50.


----------



## hendrix2430

Ras said:


> To be fair, I think he was the second injury replacement, and even then, there probably other players out there just as deserving; he's an all-star because of LeBron and Cleveland. If he stayed on Milwaukee, he probably never would've sniffed an all-star game.


I agree totally.



Ras said:


> Besides, this is all semantics; Wade isn't going to win when Lebron is putting up more or less the same numbers and leading a team to 65+ wins, *especially when Wade won't even crack 50*.


Technically it's still possible. The Heat would have to win every remaining game, which is very unlikely though. But even if he DID get to 50 wins, he still wouldn't get it IMO. 

Wade should be included in the discussion, but despite what all the analysts say, he probably wn't be seriously considered. This year it's Lebron, unless the win differential between the Lake show and the Cavs is + 5 games, in which case Kobe would likely get it.


----------



## Luke

Kobe could help himself close the gap a bit tonight in San Antonio.

So far he's been terrific.


----------



## rayz789

23AJ said:


> That's an asinine statement. A lot of those Suns were great playing in Mike D's system. Hell the two time MVP, and all star Steve Nash was also an all star in that system, was he this year ? NO he wasn't. Stop trying to down play the fact Wade has a significantly worse roster than any of the other MVP candidates. LeBron nor Kobe would trade their next top 2 players on their teams for anyone on the Heat bar D Wade.


OK then the reason Mo became an allstar cause he's playing with Lebron. Before he went with The Cavs, was Mo even talk about as being an allstar when he play for The Bucks? Sure Wade has been amazing but the bottom line is rather Wade had less roster or not, his team is not close to the cavs, lakers record. Mvp in the nba is about 2 things 1 if the team have a great record rather either it's the best record, second best record or third best record. Number 2 is that team like the cavs who have the less talent then the lakers do and the cavs all of the sudden have a great record in which shows that player ( Lebron) should get it.


----------



## Luke

rayz789 said:


> OK then the reason Mo became an allstar cause he's playing with Lebron. Before he went with The Cavs, was Mo even talk about as being an allstar when he play for The Bucks? Sure Wade has been amazing but the bottom line is rather Wade had less roster or not, his team is not close to the cavs, lakers record. Mvp in the nba is about 2 things 1 if the team have a great record rather either it's the best record, second best record or third best record. Number 2 is that team like the cavs who have the less talent then the lakers do and the cavs all of the sudden have a great record in which shows that player ( Lebron) should get it.


Of course Mo wasn't an All-Star with the Bucks, they were terrible.

And come on, I think we both know that Wade's cast is definatly worse then Kobe's and LeBron's, so it's pretty understandable that he has a far worse record.

Big games tonight, it will play a pretty big role in homecourt, and it may help Kobe's case a little if he dominates and the Cavs lose.


----------



## futuristxen

myst said:


> So they ONLY added an all-star?
> 
> Hmm, let me go through the all-star rosters and decide who Wade can play with, and then downplay the effect they have.


Mo Williams only made the all-star team after injuries though. We could very easily be talking about a team with just one all-star, just like the Heat.

And I have no sympathy for Wade. You Heat fans were talking up Wade back when you guys had Shaq, Payton, JWill, Posey and all those guys. Saying that Wade was better because he made his team better and all of that, even though Lebron was stomping his production in the face.

Now the shoe is on the other foot, but Lebron is not only winning more than Wade, his stats are the same, and in some instances better.

So I have no sympathy for your position. Nor would I expect Kobe Bryant fans, who got snubbed when he was doing his thing for a Lakers team with Kwame Brown as the starting center.

All of these Wade for MVP voters have short term memories about the **** they were saying when the Heat were good.

The standard for MVP has been set. You have to finish on the top one or two teams in the league, and you have to have an outstanding season on top of that. Only two guys are checking those boxes this year, and that's Kobe and Lebron.

Sorry. Come back next year when the Heat are more revelant, then maybe we can have an honest discussion.


----------



## futuristxen

23AJ said:


> That's an asinine statement. A lot of those Suns were great playing in Mike D's system. Hell the two time MVP, and all star Steve Nash was also an all star in that system, was he this year ? NO he wasn't. Stop trying to down play the fact Wade has a significantly worse roster than any of the other MVP candidates. LeBron nor Kobe would trade their next top 2 players on their teams for anyone on the Heat bar D Wade.


It's a worthy point. Marion had the worst year of his professional career playing next to Wade. His numbers have ticked up slightly with the Raptors. And JO's numbers have started to tick down since joining the Heat.

Why can't Beasley play on the same floor with Wade? He puts up 14 in like 24 minutes. He could easily be a 20/8 david west guy if you played him 38 minutes per game.

Cook and Chalmers have both been pretty good. And now they've got Jamario Moon who is also a solid role player.

The Heat team is not chopped liver. And the NBA does respect the talent on that team, that's why you don't see Wade get covered like you would see Lebron covered a few years back. The Heat may be young, but they're not bad. They have shooters, and athleticism to go with Wade, which makes his job easier, than say playing with Z and Gooden as your primaries, with an inconsistent Sasha Pavlovic and an oft injured Larry Hughes as your back court.


----------



## Adam

futuristxen said:


> It's a worthy point. Marion had the worst year of his professional career playing next to Wade. His numbers have ticked up slightly with the Raptors. And JO's numbers have started to tick down since joining the Heat.
> 
> Why can't Beasley play on the same floor with Wade? He puts up 14 in like 24 minutes. He could easily be a 20/8 david west guy if you played him 38 minutes per game.
> 
> Cook and Chalmers have both been pretty good. And now they've got Jamario Moon who is also a solid role player.
> 
> The Heat team is not chopped liver. And the NBA does respect the talent on that team, that's why you don't see Wade get covered like you would see Lebron covered a few years back. The Heat may be young, but they're not bad. They have shooters, and athleticism to go with Wade, which makes his job easier, than say playing with Z and Gooden as your primaries, with an inconsistent Sasha Pavlovic and an oft injured Larry Hughes as your back court.


I guess that you're a full-time gimmick poster now?

You must not have noticed but Marion is putting up worse numbers in Toronto without wade. Jamario Moon is also putting up his career best numbers with Wade.

The players on the Heat are so great that most of them play less than 30 mins a game. None of them can play major minutes because they're all inexperienced or just bad. Analyzing players, ignoring potential, Chalmers is one of the worst starting point guards in the entire NBA. We don't even have a backup point guard, so no, nobody is underrating this team.

And when did Jamario Moon become a "solid" player. You just throw out drivel in each post. He averages below the league average in points, makes bonehead plays, and has no skills whatsoever. Maybe if you watched the games, also known as the Wade-Moon ventriloquist act where Wade makes Moon walk and talk like real live NBA player, you would know that. Go ask the Raptors fans what they think of Moon. Somehow he is a "solid" player with less than 2 years experience and factoring all this?


----------



## rayz789

VanillaPrice said:


> Of course Mo wasn't an All-Star with the Bucks, they were terrible.
> 
> And come on, I think we both know that Wade's cast is definatly worse then Kobe's and LeBron's, so it's pretty understandable that he has a far worse record.
> 
> Big games tonight, it will play a pretty big role in homecourt, and it may help Kobe's case a little if he dominates and the Cavs lose.


Like i said rather Wade have less roster or not, his team still not close to the cavs, lakers record. Yea Wades talent is not better then The Cavs but in the nba they don't feel sorry for teams that has a good record with very less talent. But with less talent like The Cavs does with a great record shows Lebron should be mvp. I bet nobody here thought before the season started that The Cavs will have a great record and in a race for the best record in the nba.


----------



## rayz789

VanillaPrice said:


> Kobe could help himself close the gap a bit tonight in San Antonio.
> 
> So far he's been terrific.


Even if The Lakers wins tonight and continue to have the best record, Lebron still imo deserve to win the mvp cause of less talent cavs roster with a great record.


----------



## Ras

futuristxen said:


> ...Heat fans were talking up Wade back when you guys had Shaq, Payton, JWill, Posey and all those guys. Saying that Wade was better because he made his team better and all of that, even though Lebron was stomping his production in the face.


Actually, I kind of agree with this. Not all of course, but some Heat posters were really claiming this, because he was winning, he made his teammates better, was the better player, was more of a "winner," and all that. That always rubbed me the wrong way, and I find it odd the position seems to have switched now that the roles have reversed.

I will vouch for Moon being a poor player though: I wanted him off the Raptors.


----------



## Adam

Ras said:


> Actually, I kind of agree with this. Not all of course, but some Heat posters were really claiming this, because he was winning, he made his teammates better, was the better player, was more of a "winner," and all that. That always rubbed me the wrong way, and I find it odd the position seems to have switched now that the roles have reversed.
> 
> I will vouch for Moon being a poor player though: I wanted him off the Raptors.


I don't really get his point because he's saying LeBron "stomped Wade's face" but Wade had the better team. LeBron averaged 0.5 more PER when Wade won the championship. How is that stomping his face? Also, let's not forget LeBron was an absolutely awful defender at that time.

I didn't get this either:



> And the NBA does respect the talent on that team, that's why you don't see Wade get covered like you would see Lebron covered a few years back.


Because teams have been doubling Wade 50 ft. from the basket. He clearly doesn't watch the games even the ones with Cleveland because Cleveland actually doubled Wade about 75 ft. from the basket both games in the last week.

I guess both the LeBron and Wade camps have their extremists. I usually stay out of this stuff (unless it's Clyde Drexler related ).


----------



## ChrisRichards

Clyde Drexler couldn't shoot, was a bad scorer, and barely knew how to dribble.


----------



## Ras

The '93 Heat said:


> I don't really get his point because he's saying LeBron "stomped Wade's face" but Wade had the better team. LeBron averaged 0.5 more PER when Wade won the championship. How is that stomping his face? Also, let's not forget LeBron was an absolutely awful defender at that time.


Actually I can agree with you on that he didn't "stomp Wade's face" in production. I guess I just found it odd that some Heat fans were using the wins as support as to why he makes his teammates better, why he's better overall and why he's more of a winner. Now that the tables have turned, their positions seem to have changed. I'm not saying anyone here is doing it, but I hope we can all agree that criteria cannot just be continually adapted to push forward one's own bias'.



> I didn't get this either:
> 
> Because teams have been doubling Wade 50 ft. from the basket. He clearly doesn't watch the games even the ones with Cleveland because Cleveland actually doubled Wade about 75 ft. from the basket both games in the last week.


I agree that teams are doubling Wade like no tomorrow; they more or less have to even though he's just going to beat them with passing anyways.


----------



## futuristxen

Third straight triple double for Lebron.


----------



## rayz789

futuristxen said:


> Third straight triple double for Lebron.


Hell yeah along with 3 blocks. I admit as big of a fan as i am of Lebron, i thought he foul Jrich but at the same time i'm glad the ref didn't call it a foul cause of J-Rich retarded showboating trying for a 360 dunk when The Suns are down.


----------



## Pioneer10

It was close to a clean block plus it happened so quick that I don't think the refs got a clean look at it. I don't think the refs were trying to punish J-Rich for showboating though obviously if Jrich didn't try to showboat Lebron would never have had a shot


----------



## Diable

If lebron got a triple double they don't show it on Yahoo


----------



## Pioneer10

Diable said:


> If lebron got a triple double they don't show it on Yahoo


My Yahoo shows it


----------



## Diable

I had to refresh the boxscore...Don't know why that makes a difference.


----------



## Wade2Bosh

The block on J-Rich looked like a foul on the replay, but what a dumb play by J-Rich, and great hustle by Lebron to not give up on that play.

Lebron most likely had the MVP locked up before these last 3 games, 3 triple doubles later, they can start putting his name on that trophy.


----------



## clien

kobe mayve locked er up 2niz


----------



## Hibachi!

Yeah, the guy with a third straight triple double didn't lock it up... Kobe did...


----------



## SamTheMan67

clien said:


> kobe mayve locked er up 2niz


:lol: post of the year


----------



## G-man-sc

23AJ said:


> That's an asinine statement. A lot of those Suns were great playing in Mike D's system. Hell the two time MVP, and all star Steve Nash was also an all star in that system, was he this year ? NO he wasn't. Stop trying to down play the fact Wade has a significantly worse roster than any of the other MVP candidates. LeBron nor Kobe would trade their next top 2 players on their teams for anyone on the Heat bar D Wade.


well mo williams wasn't an all-star before he got to cleveland? maybe he is just great playing in Brown's offence (i'm really feeling stupid for even calling it an offence...) or maybe he just benefits from the opens shots he gets from playing next to the best player in the league? tell me 30/7/7 isn't a great individual performance (I know he is only close to those stats this year, but he had 'em last?) yet the mvp has been determined by team succes to, and wade doesn't lead his team to victory nearly as much LeBron do (u can take the clippers game as well, he willed 'em to a EFFing epic come-back!) Mo-Will wasn't this good in Milwaukee and it sure as hell isn't because Mike Brown made the guy bether...


----------



## hendrix2430

G-man-sc said:


> well mo williams wasn't an all-star before he got to cleveland? maybe he is just great playing in Brown's offence *(i'm really feeling stupid for even calling it an offence...)*


Yeah, you should because it is spelled offenSe...  



G-man-sc said:


> or maybe he just benefits from the opens shots he gets from playing next to the best player in the league? tell me 30/7/7 isn't a great individual performance (I know he is only close to those stats this year, but he had 'em last?) yet the mvp has been determined by team succes to, and *wade doesn't lead his team to victory nearly as much LeBron do *(u can take the clippers game as well, he willed 'em to a EFFing epic come-back!) Mo-Will wasn't this good in Milwaukee and it sure as hell isn't because Mike Brown made the guy bether...


That's harsh. Wade's been fantastic. He sure has been leading his team to many victories this year. In fact, if it wasn't for him, the Heat would probably be a 20-25 win team, if that.


----------



## Brandname

clien said:


> kobe mayve locked er up 2niz


I think your keyboard is broken.


----------



## Luke

Hibachi! said:


> Yeah, the guy with a third straight triple double didn't lock it up... Kobe did...


I said that Kobe had a chance to narrow the lead if he played tremendously and LeBron fell short of expectations, and that clearly didn't happen.


----------



## Brandname

VanillaPrice said:


> I said that Kobe had a chance to narrow the lead if he played tremendously and LeBron fell short of expectations, and that clearly didn't happen.


I think he was referring to this gem:



clien said:


> kobe mayve locked er up 2niz


If you can get some kind of meaning out of that string of characters.


----------



## Luke

Brandname said:


> I think he was referring to this gem:
> 
> 
> 
> If you can get some kind of meaning out of that string of characters.


Oh wow; I was definatly under the impression that he was making fun of my post.

Then I saw his profile thing and saw that he was a Lakers fan so i'm not even sure what to make of it anymore.


----------



## Jakain

I think Kobe Bryant definitely will not get the MVP solely since he got one last season.

The NBA execs are probably going to be very hesitant in awarding the same player back-to-back MVP's like the Canadian clown Steve Nash especially when Wade, Lebron, and CP3 are having excellent seasons.

Unfortunately for CP3 I think he'll get snubbed again and the race will come down to Lebron, Wade, and Kobe for formalities only and will end up in Lebron's hands. He's averaging numerous triple doubles and led the franchise to incredible heights. Its going to Lebron.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

Jakain said:


> I think Kobe Bryant definitely will not get the MVP solely since he got one last season.
> 
> The NBA execs are probably going to be very hesitant in awarding the same player back-to-back MVP's like the Canadian clown Steve Nash especially when Wade, Lebron, and CP3 are having excellent seasons.
> 
> Unfortunately for CP3 I think he'll get snubbed again and the race will come down to Lebron, Wade, and Kobe for formalities only and will end up in Lebron's hands. He's averaging numerous triple doubles and led the franchise to incredible heights. Its going to Lebron.


Lebron deserves it no question for obvious reasons.

I agree with you though about Kobe. It's too bad he got shafted so many times in his prime years, cause it will be hard for him to win another one in the future.


----------



## Dre

I'm actually kind of surprised Kobe got himself to the point where it's billed as a close two man race...I thought Lebron would run away with this one.


----------



## Diable

It's really more like Kobe's reputation has kept him in the discussion.If he were anyone else his play simply wouldn't merit much discussion,but he has a disproportionate share of the media attention and that is what this boils down to.At this point it's difficult to invent a scenario where lebron does not win.


----------



## Hibachi!

Diable said:


> It's really more like Kobe's reputation has kept him in the discussion.If he were anyone else his play simply wouldn't merit much discussion,but he has a disproportionate share of the media attention and that is what this boils down to.At this point it's difficult to invent a scenario where lebron does not win.


Co-signed


----------



## kflo

Jakain said:


> I think Kobe Bryant definitely will not get the MVP solely since he got one last season.
> 
> The NBA execs are probably going to be very hesitant in awarding the same player back-to-back MVP's like the Canadian clown Steve Nash especially when Wade, Lebron, and CP3 are having excellent seasons.
> 
> Unfortunately for CP3 I think he'll get snubbed again and the race will come down to Lebron, Wade, and Kobe for formalities only and will end up in Lebron's hands. He's averaging numerous triple doubles and led the franchise to incredible heights. Its going to Lebron.


nba execs have little to do with who wins the award.


----------



## kflo

Diable said:


> It's really more like Kobe's reputation has kept him in the discussion.If he were anyone else his play simply wouldn't merit much discussion,but he has a disproportionate share of the media attention and that is what this boils down to.At this point it's difficult to invent a scenario where lebron does not win.


you have to at least acknowledge that kobe's peers hold him in at least as high esteem as the media. 

lebron will win the award, and obviously is deserving. kobe won't win, and was only in a position to win to the extent his team separated and kobe lifted his own play, which he has tended to do in the 2nd half of the season. that hasn't happened, and he won't win. he'll finish in a position consistent with his performance and team record and history.


----------



## myst

> With all the MVP talk surrounding Dwyane Wade, one point that many ‘experts’ make is that Wade is not on a 1st place team, while LeBeon James and Kobe Bryant are. How important is that when choosing an MVP? By definition, MVP is for the Most Valuable Player, but to whom? Is it to that player’s team, or to the league itself? I sincerely hope that it’s for the particular players team.
> 
> Well…I decided to see how important being on a first place team is to becoming an MVP. I did some digging and went back to 1985, searching the four major sports, and found each and every time an MVP was chosen that was not on a first place team.
> 
> 
> NBA
> 87-88	Michael Jordan	Chicago Bulls	3rd in Central
> 98-99	Karl Malone	Utah Jazz	2nd in Midwest
> 
> NFL
> 1997	Barry Sanders (co. MVP w/ Brett Favre)	Detroit Lions	3rd in NFC Central
> 2000	Marshall Faulk	St. Louis Rams	2nd in NFC West
> 2003	Steve McNair (co. MVP w/ Peyton Manning)	Tennessee Titans	2nd in AFC South
> 2008	Peyton Manning	Indianapolis Colts	2nd in AFC South
> 
> MLB
> 1985	AL	Don Mattingly	New York Yankees	2nd in AL East
> 1986	NL	Mike Schmidt	Philadelphia Phillies	2nd in NL East
> 1987	NL	Andre Dawson	Chicago Cubs	Last in NL East
> 1987	AL	George Bell	Toronto Blue Jays	2nd in AL East
> 1989	AL	Robin Yount	Milwaukee Brewers	4th in AL West
> 1991	AL	Cal Ripken Jr.	Baltimore Orioles	6th in AL East
> 1993	NL	Barry Bonds	San Francisco Giants	2nd in NL West
> 1994	NL	Jeff Bagwell	Houston Astros	2nd in NL Central
> 1997	NL	Larry Walker	Colorado Rockies	3rd in NL West
> 1998	NL	Sammy Sosa	Chicago Cubs	2nd in NL Central
> 2001	NL	Barry Bonds	San Francisco Giants	2nd in NL West
> 2002	NL	Barry Bonds	San Francisco Giants	2nd in NL West
> 2003	AL	Alex Rodriguez	Texas Rangers	Last in AL West
> 2004	NL	Barry Bonds	San Francisco Giants	2nd in NL West
> 2006	NL	Ryan Howard	Philadelphia Phillies	2nd in NL East
> 2007	AL	Alex Rodriguez	New York Yankees	2nd in AL East
> 2008	NL	Albert Pujols	St. Louis Cardinals	4th in NL Central
> 2008	AL	Dustin Pedroia	Boston Red Sox	2nd in AL East
> 
> NHL
> 87-88	Mario Lemieux	Pittsburgh Penguins	Last in Patrick
> 88-89	Wayne Gretzky	Los Angeles Kings	2nd in Smythe
> 89-90	Mark Messier	Edmonton Oilers	2nd in Smythe
> 90-91	Brett Hull	St. Louis Blues	2nd in Norris
> 97-98	Dominik Hasek	Buffalo Sabres	3rd in Northwest
> 98-99	Jaromir Jagr	Pittsburgh Penguins	3rd in Atlantic
> 01-02	Jose' Theodore	Montreal Canadians	4th in Northeast
> 05-06	Joe Thornton	Boston Bruins/San Jose Sharks	2nd in Pacific (SJS)
> 06-07	Sidney Crosby	Pittsburgh Penguins	2nd in Atlantic
> 
> Obviously it's a little different in sports where more players have the opportunity to make a difference. In the NBA, usually at the most the 5 starters are the only ones who play enough to have a shot at MVP. In football, there are only a handful of positions that can provide an MVP. Baseball and Hockey have more players in the 'spotlight'...so you can see why they provide so many more non-1st MVPs. And baseball has one for each league, so....


http://www.peninsulaismightier.com/2009/3/13/795652/does-an-mvp-candidate-need


----------



## Ras

myst said:


> http://www.peninsulaismightier.com/2009/3/13/795652/does-an-mvp-candidate-need


As great as Wade is playing, and as much as I agree that he's as good as anyone, all of these articles you post can't change the criteria that defines an NBA MVP.


Besides, the nature of the argument is based around the fact that Wade doesn't have superior teammates, and in that sense, he's doing "more' for his team. But, I find the flaw with that logic is that anyone with inferior teammates would instantly mean more to their team, so anyone on a top team then cannot win because they're not a one man show. That would mean the MVP would only be handed to those one-man show teams because that player instantly means more simply because of the fact that his teammates are inferior. I can't agree with that.


----------



## Cap

Unfortunately MVP voters still vote based mostly on the best players on the very best teams and not necessarily the best players regardless of team. Guys like Howard and Wade won't get it for that reason alone no matter how great you think their seasons have been. As a 2-horse race between LeBron and Kobe, LBJ would get it in a perfect world, but I'd be prepared for disappointment if the Cavs finish 3, 4 or 5 games back of the Lakers, especially if Bryant finishes strong. He got it last season based on rep and the "surprising" surge of the Lakers in the 2nd half, but it was mostly a couple months of basketball during the 2nd half of the season that bagged him the MVP.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

Lebron another strong game (albeit against a weak team, but on the road in SAC isn't a gimme, they did beat LA)

51pts 9asst 4reb 2stls 3blks on 16-30 shooting. More importantly locked up the division for CLE and kept them a 1/2 game behind LA.


----------



## Pioneer10

Benedict_Boozer said:


> Lebron another strong game (albeit against a weak team, but on the road in SAC isn't a gimme, they did beat LA)
> 
> 51pts 9asst 4reb 2stls 3blks on 16-30 shooting. More importantly locked up the division for CLE and kept them a 1/2 game behind LA.


I would say his defense was just as sensational to end of the game. The steal to tie and then the D to shut down Kevin Martin. Lebron verstatility on defense is ridiculous: you can put him on any player except 5's for the most part and do well as long he isn't in foul trouble.


----------



## Diable

I would put that play entirely on Bobby Jackson.Lebron made a good play on the ball,but BJax may as well have served it up on a platter...It was an incredibly poor play,especially at a moment when you know Cleveland has to be gambling in the passing lanes


----------



## futuristxen

Pioneer10 said:


> I would say his defense was just as sensational to end of the game. The steal to tie and then the D to shut down Kevin Martin. Lebron verstatility on defense is ridiculous: you can put him on any player except 5's for the most part and do well as long he isn't in foul trouble.


Remember when Mike Brown put him on Jermaine O'Neal?

He can get away with it against some 5's. Obviously he can't guard Shaq, Yao, or Z. But Eddy Curry? Yeah probably.


----------



## Pioneer10

futuristxen said:


> Remember when Mike Brown put him on Jermaine O'Neal?
> 
> He can get away with it against some 5's. Obviously he can't guard Shaq, Yao, or Z. But Eddy Curry? Yeah probably.


In that game he alternated him on Bosh and JO which was terrific. His best defensive game though IMO was the Hornets game in Cleveland where he switched off between West and Paul. The Cavs basically defended the pick and roll by having Lebron play either of them. How many players can guard West and Paul on the same play effectively?


----------



## 77AJ

Big game by D Wade today against a very good team the Utah Jazz. 

D Wade stat line -

50 Points 10 rebounds 9 assists 4 steals and 2 blocks.


----------



## Adam

I'm tempted to lock this thread to symbolize the way that LeBron locked up the MVP after those 3 consecutive triple doubles. The guy should be in the new Terminator movie playing a killer android. We're so spoiled to be able to watch Kobe, LeBron, and Wade every night.


----------



## hendrix2430

Pioneer10 said:


> In that game he alternated him on Bosh and JO which was terrific. His best defensive game though IMO was the Hornets game in Cleveland where he switched off between West and Paul. The Cavs basically defended the pick and roll by having Lebron play either of them. How many players can guard West and Paul on the same play effectively?


Not many. It's funny, because now I'm even more excited to see what Lebron's gonna do on the D end than offensively. It's safe to say he the team's best defender, by quite a large margin imo.


----------



## Luke

I can't honestly remember when the league had three perimeter players as good as LeBron, Wade, and Kobe all playing at the same time.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt

The '93 Heat said:


> I'm tempted to lock this thread to symbolize the way that LeBron locked up the MVP after those 3 consecutive triple doubles. The guy should be in the new Terminator movie playing a killer android. We're so spoiled to be able to watch Kobe, LeBron, and Wade every night.


I'll drink to that.


----------



## futuristxen

23AJ said:


> Big game by D Wade today against a very good team the Utah Jazz.
> 
> D Wade stat line -
> 
> 50 Points 10 rebounds 9 assists 4 steals and 2 blocks.


3OTs skew that line a bit.


----------



## ChrisRichards

i agree, don't put too much stock in the stat line because it was 3 overtimes

he had like 36 pts at end of regulation though, so still a great game.


----------



## hendrix2430

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> I'll drink to that.


----------



## Luke

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> I'll drink to that.


Agreed.


----------



## Blue

hendrix2430 said:


>


:laugh:

That block on JRich the other day sealed the deal for me. LBJ is playing like the best player in the league right now IMO. He deserves it.


----------



## Luke

Even though it's to late to make that much of a difference, Dwight put up 18/15 while having a career high 7 assists, he's really improved as a passer.


----------



## Pioneer10

VanillaPrice said:


> Even though it's to late to make that much of a difference, Dwight put up 18/15 while having a career high 7 assists, he's really improved as a passer.


We're hitting a cycle where the big men are overshadowed. Just a few years Duncan KG, and Shaq (like the Hakeem/Drob/Ewing) led the bigs as the top rung of players. Now we're switching to a perimeter era like the Magic/Bird/Jordan years.


----------



## Luke

Pioneer10 said:


> We're hitting a cycle where the big men are overshadowed. Just a few years Duncan KG, and Shaq (like the Hakeem/Drob/Ewing) led the bigs as the top rung of players. Now we're switching to a perimeter era like the Magic/Bird/Jordan years.


Yeah, you're right; The only thing that dissapoints me is that I had really high expectations for Oden/Bynum, but it seems like they just keep on getting injured.

Oh well, the LeBron/Wade/Kobe show is entertaining enough.


----------



## hendrix2430

What about this: The MVP goes to the funniest of the bunch... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDi9O6t0vWs

"from philadelphia/Italy" lol


----------



## Blue

^^ 'The Marksman/Mamba...KOBE BRYANT' :lol:


----------



## myst

> Ira had an interesting item in his Sunday NBA column today:
> 
> _With a reduction in print media, more and more teams are issuing award ballots to team broadcasters, who are not banned from voting for members of their own franchises.
> 
> With the MVP race so close this season, that could make it interesting, for example, if a Cavaliers broadcaster were, say, to place a Dwyane Wade or Kobe Bryant a bit lower on their weighted ballots than might be expected.
> 
> It is not beyond the realm that team employees taking such an approach could boost the chances of their own player and, therefore, the profile of their own franchise.
> 
> Conversely, would you want to be the Cavaliers, Lakers or Heat broadcaster voting against your team's player, should your ballot somehow become public?
> 
> Yes, the system is flawed._
> 
> 
> My take on this:
> 
> It's about time that all leagues take their award votes away from the media, because the latter as a whole is becoming a less defined and credible entity.
> 
> About three years ago, the Sun-Sentinel was one of many metropolitan newspapers that took what it deemed a principled stance, forbidding its writers from voting on awards. The reason? Because the newspaper did not want to become part of the news, and did not want to contribute to an athlete getting a bonus or some other financial reward as a result of a reporter's vote.
> 
> I disagreed with the stance at the time, because I thought it was an overreaction. I didn't see how our integrity was seriously threatened by voting, I didn't see how any of us would be influenced by someone we cover, and I thought it was unwise that (in a time of hardship for the newspaper business) we would do anything that marginalized us any more. Plus, we were around the teams, and the leagues, enough (talking to other players) that we would have informed opinions.
> 
> Anyway, many more newspapers joined the "crusade," and that has taken votes away from people who are trained to be impartial and objective, and put more votes in the hands of media members who do not generally follow that standard and could be more subject to manipulation or some unconscious bias. They either work for the teams (in the case of broadcasters) or they aren't trained journalists. Plus, even the newspapers that allow their writers to vote are so ravaged by cutbacks that their more informed voters may all be gone soon.
> 
> So, in consideration of that climate, it's time that each league reconsiders its policy.
> 
> Nobody is more qualified to assess the merits of an athletic candidate for an award than another athlete who excelled in that same sport. But since we've seen current players make mistakes (see the Pro Bowl) because they don't have the time or interest to truly study the subject, I would go with panels of former players.
> 
> For the NBA MVP vote, for instance:
> 
> Create a panel of 25, by giving the vote to five former players from each of the past five decades. Those former players should still be close observers of the game, but should not be working for a team. My hunch is that they would take the task seriously, and would make the right choice.


http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_seasonticket/2009/03/heat-fixing-the-mvp-vote.html


----------



## myst

> Stupid Dwyane Wade. He's messing everything up. We had a perfectly neat and nestled two-man MVP race, and then here comes Wade this week, scoring 48 points with a game-winner at Chicago, 32 in a win against the Celtics, then 50 on Saturday against the Jazz — surely giving Charles Barkley something to text about (you know, once he got his cellphone back from the warden).
> 
> "I think he's capable of getting the MVP," said Wade's buddy Carmelo Anthony, the Nuggets small forward. "It might go based on records and the success of teams. But you can't sleep on what Dwyane Wade has done."
> 
> What Wade has done is stay healthy. The past two seasons, Wade wasn't Wade. But after an admirable rehab — and a stint with Team USA that earned him rave reviews and a new necklace — Wade leads the NBA in points per game (30.0), while eighth in assists (7.7, and not bad considering he isn't a classic point guard) and second in steals (2.25). His shooting percentage (49.5) is good for 26th, which isn't bad, but then consider that the percentage is good for sixth among nonpost players.
> 
> The Miami all-star recently won the Eastern Conference's player of the month award for February, the same award he won for December.
> 
> He even accidentally started a trend in South Beach with the Band-Aid under his left eye that covered his stitches (Dwyane Wade's Band-Aids are becoming as cool as Dwayne Wayne's flip sunglasses on "A Different World").
> 
> "His energy in a game is a lot of fun to watch," Nuggets coach George Karl said. "He has a defensive dimension, he blocks a lot of shots for a guard, and offensively, watching him and LeBron (James) from the top of the key to the free-throw line, it's not a basketball skill, it's an athletic skill, watching their power and speed, and then throw-handling a basketball in there, making a decision in a half-second about what to do when you get to the free-throw line is marvelous."
> 
> OK, OK, I can already hear the furious e-mail typing from furious folks in L.A. and Cleveland that reigning MVP Kobe Bryant is the top player on the league's top team, and that LeBron is becoming a verb ("They were LeBronned"). But Wade should at least be in the conversation.
> 
> It is duly noted that no MVP since Moses Malone in 1982 has been on a team with fewer than 50 wins, and while the Lakers and Cavaliers are atop their conferences, Wade's Heat are 36-29, unlikely to hit the big 5-0. But we do have this convenient statistic — Wade missed 31 games last season, and his team finished 15-67. Now they're not just a playoff team, but could be a dangerous one, Karl suggested.
> 
> Once the ballots come, it will be difficult for writers (such as this reporter) to choose Wade over both Kobe and LeBron.
> 
> But if Wade keeps putting up weeks like this, the argument against him could weaken.


http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_11915339


----------



## Hibachi!

I honestly don't even know how sportswriters are putting Kobe in the conversation still. The Lakers have had a great season, but Kobe is having a far more inferior individual season than both Wade and LeBron.


----------



## Basel

Probably because of the "best player on the best team" criteria that some go with. Believe it or not, there are still people out there who think Kobe is the best player in basketball.


----------



## Luke

Hibachi! said:


> I honestly don't even know how sportswriters are putting Kobe in the conversation still. The Lakers have had a great season, but Kobe is having a far more inferior individual season than both Wade and LeBron.


Have you followed the MVP voting at all the last few years?


----------



## clien

I don't want to penalize Wade for being on an inferior team. But leading your team to one of the best records in the league is a very important criteria when determining the MVP. So I think it should go to either Kobe or LeBron, as of right now. Lebron being the front runner right now, Kobe needs put together a string of special, memorable games to surpass LeBron.

other honorable mentions for MVP are Chris Paul, and Dwight Howard


----------



## Blue

Basel said:


> Probably because of the "best player on the best team" criteria that some go with. *Believe it or not, there are still people out there who think Kobe is the best player in basketball.*


What? Kobe still has a legit case to be the viewed as the best player though, so it's not ridiculous to go by that... You act like it's an impossibility that Kobe is still viewed as the best player in basketball. He has some nights were he is, LeBron has some nights where he is, and Wade has some nights where he is.... They all excell in different things and are in diferent situations, so it's hard to just compare #'s head-to-head though.


----------



## Luke

Blue Magic said:


> What? Kobe still has a legit case to be the viewed as the best player though, so it's not ridiculous to go by that... You act like it's an impossibility that Kobe is still viewed as the best player in basketball. He has some nights were he is, LeBron has some nights where he is, and Wade has some nights where he is.... They all excell in different things and are in diferent situations, so it's hard to just compare #'s head-to-head though.


I'm 99% sure that Basel thinks that Kobe is the best player in the leauge.


----------



## hendrix2430

Blue Magic said:


> What? Kobe still has a legit case to be the viewed as the best player though, so it's not ridiculous to go by that... You act like it's an impossibility that Kobe is still viewed as the best player in basketball. He has some nights were he is, LeBron has some nights where he is, and Wade has some nights where he is.... They all excell in different things and are in diferent situations, so it's hard to just compare #'s head-to-head though.


He was being sarcastic. A lot of people still think Kobe is the best in the game, including Basel...


----------



## Basel

hendrix2430 said:


> He was being sarcastic. A lot of people still think Kobe is the best in the game, including Basel...


:biggrin:


----------



## Blue

Basel said:


> :biggrin:


oh, my bad.... :basel:


----------



## Hibachi!

You could still make a legitimate argument that Kobe is the best in the NBA. But I don't see how you can argue he is having the best season.


----------



## thaKEAF

I'll admit I haven't really been following this season at all but what i've been seeing from Wade is insane.


----------



## kzero

So when the Mavs went on a run and took the lead today everyone in the room was on their toes. Kobe wasn't in the game and the Mavs kept extending their lead. The Lakers were down when Kobe got back in the game, but everyone gave a sigh of relief and sat back down because they all knew the Lakers would win at that point. That is Kobe's value to the Lakers.

Like someone said, there are a bunch of good candidates for MVP this year and we'll have to see how the rest of the season plays out before deciding who deserves it the most.


----------



## Luke

thaKEAF said:


> I'll admit I haven't really been following this season at all but what i've been seeing from Wade is insane.


You've been missing out; The LeBron/Kobe/Wade show that they're putting on every night is insane, this is definatly been a great season so far.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

The last weeks of the regular season are going to be like the last 10 seconds in a boxing match. Lebron/Kobe/Wade will pus hard for that MVP. I'm going to sit back and enjoy the what's left in the season.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

The majority of the media seem to have accepted the thinking that: Wade merits consideration, but he has no chance of actually winning it; or that Wade "atleast deserves to be in the conversation".

I don't like that, like "We're not gona vote for him, but we'll mention him beside Kobe/Lebron in conversations till the end of the season". Whatever though.

And for the record, I think Lebron's MVP, with Kobe & Wade tied at 2nd. Kobe's team's record is too much of an advantage to ignore, while Wade's no doubt been the better individual performer and the more valuable player to his team.


----------



## ChrisRichards

NewAgeBaller said:


> And for the record, I think Lebron's MVP, with Kobe & Wade tied at 2nd. Kobe's team's record is too much of an advantage to ignore, while Wade's no doubt been the better individual performer and the more valuable player to his team.


I agree LeBron is gonna win MVP this year 

but I don't agree Wade and Kobe are equal for MVP.

Yes, the Lakers have a great team record, but the MVP is an individual accomplishment, not a team accomplishment. Team accomplishment reward is the NBA Finals trophy.

The Heat were a 15 win team last season, and Wade has stormed back and made this team into a playoff contender with the 2nd youngest team in the NBA. He is putting up a historical season statistically and we know about his heroic finishes to games to keep the Heat rolling

That to me, makes Wade clearly above Kobe for the MVP race.


----------



## Luke

ChrisRichards said:


> I agree LeBron is gonna win MVP this year
> 
> but I don't agree Wade and Kobe are equal for MVP.
> 
> Yes, the Lakers have a great team record, but the MVP is an individual accomplishment, not a team accomplishment. Team accomplishment reward is the NBA Finals trophy.
> 
> The Heat were a 15 win team last season, and Wade has stormed back and made this team into a playoff contender with the 2nd youngest team in the NBA. He is putting up a historical season statistically and we know about his heroic finishes to games to keep the Heat rolling
> 
> That to me, makes Wade clearly above Kobe for the MVP race.


Paul Pierce is probobly above Kobe in you're MVP standings to right?

And Jesus Christ do you even pay attention to who wins the MVP award every year, it IS a team accomplishment wheather you like it or not.

And off topic, why do you hate Kobe so much? Every single thread/post that you make either is about Kobe or has some "read between the lines" message about Kobe in there, it's probobly not healthy to obsess over someone that you dislike so much.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

ChrisRichards said:


> I agree LeBron is gonna win MVP this year
> 
> but I don't agree Wade and Kobe are equal for MVP.
> 
> Yes, the Lakers have a great team record, but the MVP is an individual accomplishment, not a team accomplishment. Team accomplishment reward is the NBA Finals trophy.
> 
> The Heat were a 15 win team last season, and Wade has stormed back and made this team into a playoff contender with the 2nd youngest team in the NBA. He is putting up a historical season statistically and we know about his heroic finishes to games to keep the Heat rolling
> 
> That to me, makes Wade clearly above Kobe for the MVP race.


If it were up to me, I agree, probably. I kind of combined all the criteria people have been using though.


----------



## Pioneer10

kzero said:


> So when the Mavs went on a run and took the lead today everyone in the room was on their toes. Kobe wasn't in the game and the Mavs kept extending their lead. The Lakers were down when Kobe got back in the game, but everyone gave a sigh of relief and sat back down because they all knew the Lakers would win at that point. That is Kobe's value to the Lakers.
> 
> Like someone said, there are a bunch of good candidates for MVP this year and we'll have to see how the rest of the season plays out before deciding who deserves it the most.


There's an easy to understand stat for what you're describing: net +/- and Lebron has the best net +/- this year. 
http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.php?year=2008-2009&mode=summary&sortnumber=21&sortorder=DESC


----------



## Dre

Not only Wade, Lebron and Kobe but Paul, Deron, soon to be Mayo and Rose...this era will be led by perimeter players. I don't see any potential great big men down the pipeline.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Dre™;5906028 said:


> Not only Wade, Lebron and Kobe but Paul, Deron, soon to be Mayo and Rose...this era will be led by perimeter players. I don't see any potential great big men down the pipeline.



Udonis Haslem, though he's more of a high-post player.


----------



## Dre

Well, if Earl Barron ever takes any of Stern's calls to come back, if only for one season, the big man game will be on lock again.


----------



## Blue

I wouldn't be surprised if Dwight Howard actually finishes ahead of DWade this year though..... think about it, the Magic have a better record, Dwight is leading the league in rebs & blocks per game by a good margin, He is head over heals the best player @ his position right now.... 2nd in the league in double-doubles, 4th in FG% and efficiency, only .5 games behind Boston and 4 games behind CLE after losing their all-star PG and co-captain for the season. I think a win against Cleveland on Tues could really propell Dwights name into this discussion, or at least ahead of Wade. 

Difference between CP3 and Dwight is that Dwight has his team exceeding expectations, while the Hornets have somewhat been underachieving.


----------



## futuristxen

Dwight doesn't have enough hype behind him. The media is fully behind Wade for MVP. It's going to come down to whether the Cavs can end up +-2 games with Lakers, and Lebron can stay ahead of Kobe, and right with Wade statistically.

Lebron could put it away though if the Cavs ran the table, and Lebron pushed his numbers up while doing it.


----------



## ChrisRichards

LeBron already cemented it 

3 straight triple doubles and then a 50 pt game..

this is lebron's importance to the Cavs.

Scoring LeBron James 28.6
Rebounds LeBron James 7.5
Assists LeBron James 7.2
FG% LeBron James 48.7
FT% Mo Williams 93.7
3PT% Mo Williams 43.2
Blocks LeBron James 1.3
Steals LeBron James 1.7

it's LeBron's year. This year is wade's introduction into the MVP discussion, so that means he will have a great chance to win one the next time he has an amazing season. they usually shy away from giving it to guys the first time around but make up for it later.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Boozer believes Dwight should be in the MVP discussion too -



> _"Howard was a monster," Utah forward Carlos Boozer said. "He is one of those guys that people don't appreciate like they should. He should be in the MVP talk, too. He cleans up everything and corrects any mistake they make."_


----------



## futuristxen

Yeah but who cares what Boozer has to say?
He's a known liar.


----------



## hendrix2430

kzero said:


> So when the Mavs went on a run and took the lead today everyone in the room was on their toes. Kobe wasn't in the game and the Mavs kept extending their lead. *The Lakers were down when Kobe got back in the game, but everyone gave a sigh of relief and sat back down because they all knew the Lakers would win at that point. That is Kobe's value to the Lakers.*
> 
> Like someone said, there are a bunch of good candidates for MVP this year and we'll have to see how the rest of the season plays out before deciding who deserves it the most.


Good point, but the same can be said about several other players in the league. He isn't the only player who is that valuable to his team.


----------



## Pioneer10

Might as well as close this thread or change it too who will get second place: Lebron's got the MVP locked up this yeaer


----------



## Drewbs

Someone tell me why exactly Dwyane Wade is considered a better candidate than Chris Paul? 

No really, I'm curious, statistically, he's putting up better numbers, his team is on pace to win 50+ in a tougher conference, and the Hornets have had to deal with their share of problems this season. And outside David West, he has not really had that many consistent teammates all season. The Heat don't have any other marquee players, but they're not terrible and they're a nice mix of young talent. The only reason they didn't win more than 15 games last season was because they embarked on perhaps the single most shameless tank-job I've ever witnessed from an NBA team and was at one time starting an entire d-league based lineup, which would rotate in and out. 

I get that Wade is carrying his team, but they still suck. Kobe carried his team (which actually started Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Luke Walton for the entire season) a few years ago, put up great numbers and won about as many games as Wade's team will win this year in a tougher conference, and didn't even sniff the MVP. IIRC he wasn't even top 5 in voting because >50 wins just wasn't enough to win MVP.


----------



## kflo

Drewbs said:


> Someone tell me why exactly Dwyane Wade is considered a better candidate than Chris Paul?
> 
> No really, I'm curious, statistically, he's putting up better numbers, his team is on pace to win 50+ in a tougher conference, and the Hornets have had to deal with their share of problems this season. And outside David West, he has not really had that many consistent teammates all season. The Heat don't have any other marquee players, but they're not terrible and they're a nice mix of young talent. The only reason they didn't win more than 15 games last season was because they embarked on perhaps the single most shameless tank-job I've ever witnessed from an NBA team and was at one time starting an entire d-league based lineup, which would rotate in and out.
> 
> I get that Wade is carrying his team, but they still suck. Kobe carried his team (which actually started Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Luke Walton for the entire season) a few years ago, put up great numbers and won about as many games as Wade's team will win this year in a tougher conference, and didn't even sniff the MVP. IIRC he wasn't even top 5 in voting because >50 wins just wasn't enough to win MVP.


how do you determine he's putting up better numbers?


----------



## kflo

Pioneer10 said:


> Might as well as close this thread or change it too who will get second place: Lebron's got the MVP locked up this yeaer


he does. things needed to happen for the picture to change from the break. they haven't. it's a lock. and well deserved. should be a landslide.


----------



## Basel

Yeah, it's LeBron's award to lose at this point.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

kflo said:


> how do you determine he's putting up better numbers?


They are atleast as good. I mean, there is a difference of .2 in their PER. If you want to talk glory stats, Paul has him beat in every category except blocks and points (assists, steals, rebounds, FG%, FT%, 3PT%), and he turns it over less. 

But to the scorers go the attention unfortunetly. It's no coincedence that the top 3 MVP candidates happen to be the top 3 scorers in the league. 

It also hurts Paul that his team overachieved last year and haven't been able to get back to the same level this year.


----------



## RSP83

Lebron is the MVP this year because of his individual production and team performance.


----------



## Lebbron

Paul's problem is that his teammates regressed so his expectations and supporting cast are overrated. Chandler came out like a shell of himself last year, then he kept getting injured, then traded, then played decently for a few games before getting injured again. Peja is just old and getting older I don't think he's played in a while. West is a very off and on player with a lot more off this year. Their bench is thin even when the starters do play.

Paul and Wade's stats are pretty much a wash. PER is puts Wade ahead by 0.2, Paul has a lead in offensive and defensive win shares, offensive and defensive efficiency, Roland Rating (just 0.3), and the highest on/off net points differential in the league. 

And Paul takes over games just like any of the rest of these guys.

But it doesn't matter I think it's obvious to any objective fan who the MVP is.


----------



## clien

looks like Lebron can kiss the MVP goodbye...
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch?e=20090328044040926


----------



## Tooeasy

clien said:


> looks like Lebron can kiss the MVP goodbye...
> http://www.xtranormal.com/watch?e=20090328044040926


what in the bloody hell did that have to do with ANYTHING?


----------



## Tragedy

futuristxen said:


> Yeah but who cares what Boozer has to say?
> He's a known liar.


The cavs have won 60... you still salty?


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

you know lebron is the undisputable best player/mvp of the league when you're a kobe fan and defending lebron's case for the title seems to not only make sense but is actually 10 x easier...


----------



## futuristxen

Tragedy said:


> The cavs have won 60... you still salty?


I wasn't saying it in a bitter tone. Just saying. I don't rate or value anything Boozer has to say. He's been kind of a rat to Utah as well lately, so I mean, they got what they paid for, and soon Miami will have it too.


----------



## myst

futuristxen said:


> I wasn't saying it in a bitter tone. Just saying. I don't rate or value anything Boozer has to say. He's been kind of a rat to Utah as well lately, so I mean, they got what they paid for, and soon Miami will have it too.


Not unless the NBA gets rid of the salary cap.


----------



## Hibachi!

Kobe has pretty much eliminated himself entirely from contention. His last stretch of games have been absolutely awful, and arguably the Lakers were playing better when he was off the court. Not that it was even a question, but LeBron has wrapped this up already.


----------



## Blue

(1)LeBron
(2)Dwight
(3a)CP3
(3b)Kobe 
(5)Wade


----------



## EGarrett

This should be the most lopsided MVP vote in years...I mean...it's just not even close.

BTW, I'm glad to be back, apparently my password was too old and needed to be reset...every single time I tried to log-in for months.


----------



## Basel

EGarrett said:


> This should be the most lopsided MVP vote in years...I mean...it's just not even close.
> 
> BTW, I'm glad to be back, apparently my password was too old and needed to be reset...every single time I tried to log-in for months.


Welcome back.


----------



## EGarrett

Basel said:


> Welcome back.


Thank you.

Now, if I may...Lebron dominates on every possible MVP criteria I can think of...including the Sports Guy's questionnaire.

1. Ten years from now, which player will come to mind first from this season? Lebron.
2. If you had a pick-up game with every NBA player available and your life on the line, who do you take first? Lebron.
3. If you replaced every MVP candidate with a decent player at his position, which team would be most effected? The Cavs.
4. Who is the best player on the best team? Lebron James.
5. Who has the best stats (PER-wise)? Lebron James by a country mile. 28, 7.7, 7.3 and over 1 steal and 1 block per game is absolutely insane.

There's no way Lebron doesn't take this in a landslide.


----------



## myst

EGarrett said:


> 5. Who has the best stats (PER-wise)? Lebron James by a country mile. 28, 7.7, 7.3 and over 1 steal and 1 block per game is absolutely insane.


I agreed with you up until here. Wade is having the better statistical season

30 ppg
7.5 apg
5.0 rpg
2.3 spg
1.4 bpg
49% fg


----------



## EGarrett

myst said:


> I agreed with you up until here. Wade is having the better statistical season
> 
> 30 ppg
> 7.5 apg
> 5.0 rpg
> 2.3 spg
> 1.4 bpg
> 49% fg


http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp

Lebron is #1 and the only player over 30.


----------



## Adam

EGarrett said:


> http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp
> 
> Lebron is #1 and the only player over 30.


Wade's PER is 30.3 and LeBron's is 31.5 No clue why the NBA page would say that (if it does). Use basketball-reference or just go to Hollinger's page itself if you love PER:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fhollinger%2fstatistics

Anyway, it's hardly a rational argument to say that LeBron is having the better statistical season because he has a higher PER. Wade bests him in every single category except for rebounding.


----------



## Blue

CP3 is having best statistical season, pound-for-pound.


----------



## Pioneer10

The '93 Heat said:


> Wade's PER is 30.3 and LeBron's is 31.5 No clue why the NBA page would say that (if it does). Use basketball-reference or just go to Hollinger's page itself if you love PER:
> 
> http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fhollinger%2fstatistics
> 
> Anyway, it's hardly a rational argument to say that LeBron is having the better statistical season because he has a higher PER. Wade bests him in every single category except for rebounding.


All the pace adjusted numbers are in Lebron's favor except points. Per possesion Lebron is more efficient scorer, better passer, gets less TO's, gets more rebounds. Wade plays more minutes and his team has a higher pace so his per game numbers looks better


----------



## Adam

Pioneer10 said:


> All the pace adjusted numbers are in Lebron's favor except points. Per possesion Lebron is more efficient scorer, better passer, gets less TO's, gets more rebounds. Wade plays more minutes and his team has a higher pace so his per game numbers looks better


And that's relative to the teams they play for. They both play 38 minutes per game. Don't see how you got that he was a better passer either. Wade has a higher assist rate.

EGarrett is trying to make a statistical argument and I only responded that the stats aren't what puts LeBron over. Just like you pointed out, LeBron's stats are lower because he plays on a winning team (and his team is winning because he's on that team). You're only agreeing with me because I was only pointing out that Wade's per game numbers best LeBron's. Why they are higher and if they would be higher in another system on another team is another issue entirely.


----------



## Pioneer10

The '93 Heat said:


> And that's relative to the teams they play for. They both play 38 minutes per game. Don't see how you got that he was a better passer either. Wade has a higher assist rate.
> 
> EGarrett is trying to make a statistical argument and I only responded that the stats aren't what puts LeBron over. Just like you pointed out, LeBron's stats are lower because he plays on a winning team (and his team is winning because he's on that team). You're only agreeing with me because I was only pointing out that Wade's per game numbers best LeBron's. Why they are higher and if they would be higher in another system on another team is another issue entirely.


It's not playing on a winning team that makes Lebron's per game number it's that the Cavs are very slow paced team. Miami isn't a fast paced team either but the Cavs are even slower. Simply put the number of possession Lebron's plays is lower and Hollinger PER is based on efficiency. Statiscally Lebron is a more efficient player.

Lebron also has a higher assist ratio on both Hollinger and Knickerblogger. Assist ratio is a bit different then assist percentage which I think you're posting up which basketball-reference uses. Assist ratio is a per possesion number while assist percentage looks at what percentage of the teams shots does the player assist. Assist percentage isn't really an efficiency measure


----------



## Adam

Pioneer10 said:


> It's not playing on a winning team that makes Lebron's per game number it's that the Cavs are very slow paced team. Miami isn't a fast paced team either but the Cavs are even slower. Simply put the number of possession Lebron's plays is lower and Hollinger PER is based on efficiency. Statiscally Lebron is a more efficient player.
> 
> Lebron also has a higher assist ratio on both Hollinger and Knickerblogger. Assist ratio is a bit different then assist percentage which I think you're posting up which basketball-reference uses. Assist ratio is a per possesion number while assist percentage looks at what percentage of the teams shots does the player assist. Assist percentage isn't really an efficiency measure


I don't think that you understand that the team's pace doesn't matter in this argument. You can't state that his points are adversely affected by the pace because they could be positively affected by it. His shot attempts are virtually equal to Wade's and the Cavs score more points off turnovers. Just because Miami has more possessions does not mean anything when they are both playing equal minutes. Miami is a worse team so most of those extra possessions are killed with bad execution. It's all relative. You can't just equivocally say pace affects him negatively in this comparison.

And there should be an Assists to Joel Anthony stat. Have you seen that guy try to catch a ball? He makes Kwame Brown look like Dr. J. Assist % tells the number of assists per 100 possessions. I'll take that over assist ratio any day.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

The '93 Heat said:


> And there should be an Assists to Joel Anthony stat. Have you seen that guy try to catch a ball?


Unfortunately, yes.


----------



## futuristxen

The '93 Heat said:


> And that's relative to the teams they play for. They both play 38 minutes per game. Don't see how you got that he was a better passer either. Wade has a higher assist rate.
> 
> EGarrett is trying to make a statistical argument and I only responded that the stats aren't what puts LeBron over. Just like you pointed out, LeBron's stats are lower because he plays on a winning team (and his team is winning because he's on that team). You're only agreeing with me because I was only pointing out that Wade's per game numbers best LeBron's. Why they are higher and if they would be higher in another system on another team is another issue entirely.


Lebron's not ahead of Wade just because of Team wins either. He's ahead of him because he is virtually tied statistiically with Wade. AND his team is like almost 20 games better.

We'll see where they end up statistically at the end of the year as well. Lebron's assist numbers have been inching up. If he can tie or go ahead of Wade on assists, and catch him on blocks, then it's going to be even more damaging to Wade's cause.

But obviously with the history of the award, you're not going to get an MVP with less than 50 wins. Heck even if you get to 50 wins you may not get it. Almost regardless of what stats you put up. To even have a chance Wade would have to be dominating Lebron statistically, to make up for how much his team sucks in the standings.


----------



## Brandname

The '93 Heat said:


> I don't think that you understand that the team's pace doesn't matter in this argument. You can't state that his points are adversely affected by the pace because they could be positively affected by it. His shot attempts are virtually equal to Wade's and the Cavs score more points off turnovers. Just because Miami has more possessions does not mean anything when they are both playing equal minutes. Miami is a worse team so most of those extra possessions are killed with bad execution. It's all relative. You can't just equivocally say pace affects him negatively in this comparison.
> 
> And there should be an Assists to Joel Anthony stat. Have you seen that guy try to catch a ball? He makes Kwame Brown look like Dr. J. Assist % tells the number of assists per 100 possessions. I'll take that over assist ratio any day.


You're misunderstanding a lot here. Pioneer10 is right, Lebron has had the superior statistical season this year, and one of the best ever. Wade has also had a great statistical season, easily the 2nd best in the league. 

Of course PPG is affected by pace. If you have more possessions, you have more opportunities to score the ball. Wade is taking 2 more shots per game than Lebron, and he's scoring 1.5 more ppg. So he's a little less efficient, and the reason his ppg is higher is just because he takes more shots. 

Lebron: .585 TS%
Wade: .569 TS%

Lebron: 21.2 Assist rate
Wade: 20.1 Assist rate

Lebron: 8.5 Turnover rate
Wade: 9.3 Turnover rate

Lebron: 12.1 Rebound rate
Wade: 7.8 Rebound rate

Your argument saying pace doesn't mean anything since they both play equal minutes is just completely not understanding what's going on. Pace is the only thing that separates the number of scoring opportunities if they play the same minutes. Do you really think Wilt Chamberlain would score 50 ppg if he played today? Why not, if he's playing the same number of minutes as he used to? I've never seen a situation (and can't really imagine one) where a higher number of possessions would lead you to score fewer points.


----------



## Brandname

futuristxen said:


> Lebron's not ahead of Wade just because of Team wins either. He's ahead of him because he is virtually tied statistiically with Wade. AND his team is like almost 20 games better.
> 
> We'll see where they end up statistically at the end of the year as well. Lebron's assist numbers have been inching up. If he can tie or go ahead of Wade on assists, and catch him on blocks, then it's going to be even more damaging to Wade's cause.
> 
> But obviously with the history of the award, you're not going to get an MVP with less than 50 wins. Heck even if you get to 50 wins you may not get it. Almost regardless of what stats you put up. To even have a chance Wade would have to be dominating Lebron statistically, to make up for how much his team sucks in the standings.


Lebron already dishes out assists more often than Wade.


----------



## EGarrett

The '93 Heat said:


> Wade's PER is 30.3 and LeBron's is 31.5 No clue why the NBA page would say that (if it does). Use basketball-reference or just go to Hollinger's page itself if you love PER:
> 
> http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fhollinger%2fstatistics
> 
> Anyway, it's hardly a rational argument to say that LeBron is having the better statistical season because he has a higher PER. Wade bests him in every single category except for rebounding.


"If it does?" You didn't even click the link...?

As of the last update, Wade isn't even second in the league. Chris Paul is. Lebron is #1. It's basically a walk for Lebron in every MVP criteria...


----------



## Adam

Brandname said:


> You're misunderstanding a lot here. Pioneer10 is right, Lebron has had the superior statistical season this year, and one of the best ever. Wade has also had a great statistical season, easily the 2nd best in the league.
> 
> Of course PPG is affected by pace. If you have more possessions, you have more opportunities to score the ball. Wade is taking 2 more shots per game than Lebron, and he's scoring 1.5 more ppg. So he's a little less efficient, and the reason his ppg is higher is just because he takes more shots.
> 
> Lebron: .585 TS%
> Wade: .569 TS%
> 
> Lebron: 21.2 Assist rate
> Wade: 20.1 Assist rate
> 
> Lebron: 8.5 Turnover rate
> Wade: 9.3 Turnover rate
> 
> Lebron: 12.1 Rebound rate
> Wade: 7.8 Rebound rate
> 
> Your argument saying pace doesn't mean anything since they both play equal minutes is just completely not understanding what's going on. Pace is the only thing that separates the number of scoring opportunities if they play the same minutes. Do you really think Wilt Chamberlain would score 50 ppg if he played today? Why not, if he's playing the same number of minutes as he used to? I've never seen a situation (and can't really imagine one) where a higher number of possessions would lead you to score fewer points.


You missed my point. The reason why I'm wary with him taking per possession stats and extrapolating them to make hypothetical guesses is because those per possession rates only exist with respect to the team. If you increased Cleveland's pace then you change everything about the way they play and their team execution and it could adversely affect LeBron. You can't just say that everything would remain constant and LeBron would get his current + 2 extra shots. With averages over 70+ games you have to understand that he is already getting the maximum per his teams pace and you can't just magically conjure up extra possessions. It could come at the expense of something else. I didn't say equivocally that he would be adversely affected by an increased pace, but I won't allow you and Pioneer to equivocally say that he would be positively affected by one. His rebounds may go down. His shooting percentages. His points. People on this sight who love the advanced stats have a habit of attaching more weight to per possession stats and using them to make biased claims which is ironic because people using advanced stats should conceivably know the tenets of statistics and they should consider the negative potential.


----------



## Blue

Brandname said:


> Lebron: .585 TS%
> Wade: .569 TS%
> *CP3: .599 TS%*
> 
> Lebron: 21.2 Assist rate
> Wade: 20.1 Assist rate
> *CP3: 33.8. Assist rate*
> 
> Lebron: 8.5 Turnover rate
> Wade: 9.3 Turnover rate
> *CP3: 9.3 Turnover rate*
> 
> Lebron: 12.1 Rebound rate
> Wade: 7.8 Rebound rate
> *CP3: 8.6 Rebound rate*
> 
> LeBron: 6'9"
> Wade: 6'4"
> *CP3: 6'0"*


lb.-for-lb., Chris Paul >>>>


----------



## Brandname

Listen, I understand fully that CP3 deserves to be in the discussion with Bron and Wade about the best individual years statistically, but what is with this 'pound for pound' crap? You can't say someone is best in the league statistically 'pound for pound'. It doesn't mean anything. Let Paul's achievements speak for themselves. 

Why people act like it's some kind of virtue to be small and still put up great numbers I have no idea. Teams actively look for big players because size is a good thing in the NBA. 

I'm actually not even sure why Paul gets so little mention for MVP while Wade seems to be getting a lot. He's putting up similar stats on a better team.


----------



## Blue

I'm talking about his rebounding, lb.-for-lb.(6'0" 175), is more impressive to me than Lebron(@6'9" 250). Usually the bigger you are, the higher your TS%. Not for Chris Paul it's not. That's more impressive for him do what he does @ his size, then what others do @ their size. lb.-for-lb.


----------



## Ras

Blue Magic said:


> I'm talking about his rebounding, lb.-for-lb.(6'0" 175), is more impressive to me than Lebron(@6'9" 250). Usually the bigger you are, the higher your TS%. Not for Chris Paul it's not. That's more impressive for him do what he does @ his size, then what others do @ their size. lb.-for-lb.


That is true. Though the same time, his rebounds and points don't mean anymore because he's shorter, it's just more of an impressive physical feat because he can do it at that height; your production is your production, and being shorter or taller doesn't make it worth more or less.


----------



## kflo

The '93 Heat said:


> You missed my point. The reason why I'm wary with him taking per possession stats and extrapolating them to make hypothetical guesses is because those per possession rates only exist with respect to the team. If you increased Cleveland's pace then you change everything about the way they play and their team execution and it could adversely affect LeBron. You can't just say that everything would remain constant and LeBron would get his current + 2 extra shots. With averages over 70+ games you have to understand that he is already getting the maximum per his teams pace and you can't just magically conjure up extra possessions. It could come at the expense of something else. I didn't say equivocally that he would be adversely affected by an increased pace, but I won't allow you and Pioneer to equivocally say that he would be positively affected by one. His rebounds may go down. His shooting percentages. His points. People on this sight who love the advanced stats have a habit of attaching more weight to per possession stats and using them to make biased claims which is ironic because people using advanced stats should conceivably know the tenets of statistics and they should consider the negative potential.


per possession stats are better measures of efficiency. it's that simple. you're the making more assumptions. 

within any game, per possession efficiency will almost always predict the winner (save for games where the actual # of possessions differs between the 2 teams). 

it less important what he would do with more possessions, or what wade would do with fewer possessions. what matters is what they do within their actual possessions. in other words, per possession stats are the most meaningful. 

lebron is having a historic season.


----------



## kflo

Blue Magic said:


> I'm talking about his rebounding, lb.-for-lb.(6'0" 175), is more impressive to me than Lebron(@6'9" 250). Usually the bigger you are, the higher your TS%. Not for Chris Paul it's not. That's more impressive for him do what he does @ his size, then what others do @ their size. lb.-for-lb.


paul is in the running for the most impressive lb for lb achievement award. when do they announce that one? 

they should give the little guys lb-for-lb awards in every sport.


----------



## Blue

I'm talking about his rebounding, lb.-for-lb.(6'0" 175), is more impressive to me than Lebron(@6'9" 250). And also, Usually the bigger you are, the higher your TS%. Not for Chris Paul it's not. He's the smallest of the three, yet has the highest TS%. That's more impressive for him do what he does @ his size, then what the others do @ their size. Pound-for-pound. To me. Just sayin.

And where is Dwight Howard in this mix? Is DWade ahead of him??


----------



## Ras

Blue Magic said:


> I'm talking about his rebounding, lb.-for-lb.(6'0" 175), is more impressive to me than Lebron(@6'9" 250). And also, Usually the bigger you are, the higher your TS%. Not for Chris Paul it's not. He's the smallest of the three, yet has the highest TS%. That's more impressive for him do what he does @ his size, then what the others do @ their size. Pound-for-pound. To me. Just sayin.
> 
> And where is Dwight Howard in this mix? Is DWade ahead of him??


I'm not sure, though I can't really say it's of all that much importance; LeBron is going to win.


----------



## Brandname

Blue Magic said:


> I'm talking about his rebounding, lb.-for-lb.(6'0" 175), is more impressive to me than Lebron(@6'9" 250). And also, Usually the bigger you are, the higher your TS%. Not for Chris Paul it's not. He's the smallest of the three, yet has the highest TS%. That's more impressive for him do what he does @ his size, then what the others do @ their size. Pound-for-pound. To me. Just sayin.
> 
> And where is Dwight Howard in this mix? Is DWade ahead of him??


Pound for pound, Dwight Howard isn't even in the conversation. Probably around the likes of, say, a Mo Williams.


----------



## Blue

Brandname said:


> Pound for pound, Dwight Howard isn't even in the conversation. Probably around the likes of, say, a Mo Williams.


Fail. Despite only being 2 inches taller and weighing only 15 more lbs(?)than LBronze, while also having a horrible FT% to compensate for, Dwight actually has the highest TS% of the 4. He dominates the statistical categories that he should for his size. Rebounds, blocks, scoring efficiecy should be easier the bigger you are.... Dwight almost doubles Lebron's rebound rate and block rate, and physically he isn't as big compared to Lebron, as Lebron is compared to CP3..

Only thing Dwight doesnt have on those guys is assists & stls, but he ****s on them in blks & rebs to compensate for that. Similarly to how CP3 doesnt have the blks to keep up, but he compensates by leading the league in dimes & stls. 

Lebron: .585 TS%
Wade: .569 TS%
CP3: .599 TS%
*Dwight: .608 TS%*

Lebron: 21.2 Assist rate
Wade: 20.1 Assist rate
CP3: 33.8. Assist rate
*Dwight: 6.4 Assist rate*

Lebron: 8.5 Turnover rate
Wade: 9.3 Turnover rate
CP3: 9.3 Turnover rate
*Dwight: 14.1 Turnover rate*

Lebron: 12.1 Rebound rate
Wade: 7.8 Rebound rate
CP3: 8.6 Rebound rate
*Dwight: 21.9 Rebound rate*

Lebron: 2.6 Block%
Wade: 2.9 Block%
CP3: 0.3 Block%
*Dwight: 5.8 Block%*

LeBron: 6'9"
Wade: 6'4"
CP3: 6'0"
*Dwight: 6'11"*


----------



## Brandname

Psh, at nearly 7 ft tall Dwight is SUPPOSED to get that many rebounds and blocks. Call me when he gets a 15 assist game.

Pound for pound, the race is clearly:

1) Paul
2) Wade
3) Kobe
4) Lebron

Dwight is probably somewhere in the 10-15 range. If he were getting those kinds of numbers as a smaller player, he'd be easily top 2 I would say.


----------



## kflo

Blue Magic said:


> Fail. Despite only being 2 inches taller and weighing only 15 more lbs(?)than LBronze, while also having a horrible FT% to compensate for, Dwight actually has the highest TS% of the 4. He dominates the statistical categories that he should for his size. Rebounds, blocks, scoring efficiecy should be easier the bigger you are.... Dwight almost doubles Lebron's rebound rate and block rate, and physically he isn't as big compared to Lebron, as Lebron is compared to CP3..
> 
> Only thing Dwight doesnt have on those guys is assists & stls, but he ****s on them in blks & rebs to compensate for that. Similarly to how CP3 doesnt have the blks to keep up, but he compensates by leading the league in dimes & stls.
> 
> Lebron: .585 TS%
> Wade: .569 TS%
> CP3: .599 TS%
> *Dwight: .608 TS%*
> 
> Lebron: 21.2 Assist rate
> Wade: 20.1 Assist rate
> CP3: 33.8. Assist rate
> *Dwight: 6.4 Assist rate*
> 
> Lebron: 8.5 Turnover rate
> Wade: 9.3 Turnover rate
> CP3: 9.3 Turnover rate
> *Dwight: 14.1 Turnover rate*
> 
> Lebron: 12.1 Rebound rate
> Wade: 7.8 Rebound rate
> CP3: 8.6 Rebound rate
> *Dwight: 21.9 Rebound rate*
> 
> Lebron: 2.6 Block%
> Wade: 2.9 Block%
> CP3: 0.3 Block%
> *Dwight: 5.8 Block%*
> 
> LeBron: 6'9"
> Wade: 6'4"
> CP3: 6'0"
> *Dwight: 6'11"*


not sure what the point is here. howard is statistically worse than all of them, as well as being bigger than all of them. so lb for lb, for what that's worth (nothing), he's last among them.


----------



## Blue

Brandname said:


> Psh, at nearly 7 ft tall Dwight is SUPPOSED to get that many rebounds and blocks. Call me when he gets a 15 assist game.
> 
> Pound for pound, the race is clearly:
> 
> 1) Paul
> 2) Wade
> 3) Kobe
> 4) Lebron
> 
> Dwight is probably somewhere in the 10-15 range. If he were getting those kinds of numbers as a smaller player, he'd be easily top 2 I would say.


Wait, wait, wait.... What statistical category does Lbj leading the league in? NOthing. What category is he dominating his peers in? NOthing. That's what I thought. (And i'm not talking about advanced stats, i'm talking about the fundamental statistical caterories.)

Dwight Howard & Chris Paul >>>>>>

:biggrin: :lol:


----------



## Blue

kflo said:


> not sure what the point is here. *howard is statistically worse than all of them*, as well as being bigger than all of them. so lb for lb, for what that's worth (nothing), he's last among them.


Are you blind.


----------



## Brandname

Dwight has good stats, but he's almost 7 ft tall!

Pound for pound, he's nowhere even close to the top.


----------



## croco

Blue Magic said:


> Fail. Despite only being 2 inches taller and weighing only 15 more lbs(?)than LBronze, while also having a horrible FT% to compensate for, Dwight actually has the highest TS% of the 4. He dominates the statistical categories that he should for his size. Rebounds, blocks, scoring efficiecy should be easier the bigger you are.... Dwight almost doubles Lebron's rebound rate and block rate, and physically he isn't as big compared to Lebron, as Lebron is compared to CP3..
> 
> Only thing Dwight doesnt have on those guys is assists & stls, but he ****s on them in blks & rebs to compensate for that. Similarly to how CP3 doesnt have the blks to keep up, but he compensates by leading the league in dimes & stls.
> 
> Lebron: .585 TS%
> Wade: .569 TS%
> CP3: .599 TS%
> *Dwight: .608 TS%*
> 
> Lebron: 21.2 Assist rate
> Wade: 20.1 Assist rate
> CP3: 33.8. Assist rate
> *Dwight: 6.4 Assist rate*
> 
> Lebron: 8.5 Turnover rate
> Wade: 9.3 Turnover rate
> CP3: 9.3 Turnover rate
> *Dwight: 14.1 Turnover rate*
> 
> Lebron: 12.1 Rebound rate
> Wade: 7.8 Rebound rate
> CP3: 8.6 Rebound rate
> *Dwight: 21.9 Rebound rate*
> 
> Lebron: 2.6 Block%
> Wade: 2.9 Block%
> CP3: 0.3 Block%
> *Dwight: 5.8 Block%*
> 
> LeBron: 6'9"
> Wade: 6'4"
> CP3: 6'0"
> *Dwight: 6'11"*


Ever heard of Maurice Brooks ?


----------



## Hibachi!

Inch for inch Nate Robinson is MVP


----------



## Brandname

Hibachi! said:


> Blue Magic's homerism knows no bounds...


I like having him around because we get some real gems from him.

Arguing that Lebron's rebounds and blocks are less impressive than CP3's rebounds and blocks because he's bigger, and then *in the same paragraph* arguing that Dwight Howard should get MVP recognition because of his rebounds and blocks. 

Blue Magic, no offense, but you so often say things that absolutely leave me scratching my head, that it's just hilarious to watch you post. You always get in over your head in arguments that you don't understand. For that, I hope you stick around.


----------



## kflo

i have developed a new metric, HATER (height adjusted total efficiency rating). i'm afraid to say, based on this HATER metric, dwight howard falls out of the top 25.


----------



## Brandname

kflo said:


> i have developed a new metric, HATER (height adjusted total efficiency rating). i'm afraid to say, based on this HATER metric, dwight howard falls out of the top 25.


:lol:


----------



## Pioneer10

The '93 Heat said:


> I don't think that you understand that the team's pace doesn't matter in this argument. You can't state that his points are adversely affected by the pace because they could be positively affected by it. His shot attempts are virtually equal to Wade's and the Cavs score more points off turnovers. Just because Miami has more possessions does not mean anything when they are both playing equal minutes. Miami is a worse team so most of those extra possessions are killed with bad execution. It's all relative. You can't just equivocally say pace affects him negatively in this comparison.
> 
> And there should be an Assists to Joel Anthony stat. Have you seen that guy try to catch a ball? He makes Kwame Brown look like Dr. J. Assist % tells the number of assists per 100 possessions. I'll take that over assist ratio any day.


Come on now: Ben Wallace can't even dunk the ball at a 50% clip. 
With regards to you previous paragraph: read what kflo wrote. Your effieciency per possesion is what equals winning and Lebron is a more efficent player. Also the same minutes line has to be a joke. A guy playing in New York even if he plays the same minutes is going to have significantly greater per game numbers even if his efficiency is slighly less compared to a player playing on a slow paced team like the Cavs.

Also assist percentage does not look at assists per 100 possessions. It looks at what percentage of the teams assists come from a certain player (c_orrection percentage of team FG's a player assist_s) . You're just wrong about this:


> Assist Percentage (available since the 1964-65 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * AST / (((MP / (Tm MP / 5)) * Tm FG) - FG). Assist percentage is an estimate of the percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while he was on on the floor.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html


----------



## kflo

Pioneer10 said:


> Also assist percentage does not look at assists per 100 possessions. It looks at what percentage of the teams assists come from a certain player. You're just wrong about this:
> 
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html


it's actually what % of a teams fg's are assisted by a certain player.


----------



## Blue

Brandname said:


> I like having him around because we get some real gems from him.
> 
> Arguing that Lebron's rebounds and blocks are less impressive than CP3's rebounds and blocks because he's bigger, and then *in the same paragraph* arguing that Dwight Howard should get MVP recognition because of his rebounds and blocks.
> 
> Blue Magic, no offense, but you so often say things that absolutely leave me scratching my head, that it's just hilarious to watch you post. You always get in over your head in arguments that you don't understand. For that, I hope you stick around.


I'm just messing with ya'll, but @ the same time, you guys still misinterpret me. I said Chris Paul's rebounding & efficiency is more impressive @ his size than Lebron's. Lebron is 9 inches's taller & weighs about 75lb's more than him, yet is less efficient and only avgs 2 more rebs/per. I didn't say that what LBJ does isn't impressive, I just said that looking @ CP3's size, what he's doing could be more impressive as an individual(at least IMO). I also said that bpg is the only area where LBJ should be dominating Paul, and actually is. *Aside *from bpg, LBJ doesn't dominate CP3 in any statistical category, but CP3 makes up for that with his superior apg & spg #'s.

Dwight, on the other hand, *dominates* LBJ in rpg & bpg just like you would expect a player of his size to do. He is also the more efficient scorer, which you expect the bigger man to be. LBJ is not a more efficient scorer than the smaller CP3. Those are just the facts. Call it hating if you wish. I was halfway kidding with the pound-for-pound crap, but the #'s dont lie. Pound-for-pound, one could look @ some of CP3's production as just as impressive, if not a bit more. Pound-for-pound, I dont see what LBJ does that makes Dwight look bad.... Dwight is *dominating* LBJ in the categories that he should be for his size. What about that doesnt make sense? LBJ *dominates *Dwight in apg and spg, so it evens out... Pound-for-pound, how has LBJ been more impressive than Dwight? He's 2 inches and like 15-20 lbs lighter, and he's not close to Dwight in any of the 'big man' categories.... I dont see how im a hater for stating facts.


----------



## Adam

kflo said:


> per possession stats are better measures of efficiency. it's that simple. you're the making more assumptions.
> 
> within any game, per possession efficiency will almost always predict the winner (save for games where the actual # of possessions differs between the 2 teams).
> 
> it less important what he would do with more possessions, or what wade would do with fewer possessions. what matters is what they do within their actual possessions. in other words, per possession stats are the most meaningful.
> 
> lebron is having a historic season.


Wade's per possession stats are lowered because he has to play more minutes and in a less effective team. Just like how LeBron's per game stats are lowered because he plays for a winning team. You have to qualify all your stats and there's no "better" or "worse" in this argument so you're flat out wrong about that. 

Stamina is a factor that many people in this thread neglect far too often. There's no way of knowing whether increasing pace would have a positive or negative effect on LeBron. His constants in assists and points could go down and multiplied by possessions he could end up with lower numbers than he has in his current pace. The LeBron touters are being very biased in this argument which is bizarre considering he already averages virtually identical shots compared to Wade and plays with far better teammates which boosts his assists because in the end assists are as much a measure of who you play with as they are a measure of passing ability. Probably more so.



Pioneer10 said:


> Come on now: Ben Wallace can't even dunk the ball at a 50% clip.
> With regards to you previous paragraph: read what kflo wrote. Your effieciency per possesion is what equals winning and Lebron is a more efficent player. Also the same minutes line has to be a joke. A guy playing in New York even if he plays the same minutes is going to have significantly greater per game numbers even if his efficiency is slighly less compared to a player playing on a slow paced team like the Cavs.
> 
> Also assist percentage does not look at assists per 100 possessions. It looks at what percentage of the teams assists come from a certain player (c_orrection percentage of team FG's a player assist_s) . You're just wrong about this:
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html


Those are rates. You can't argue that those rates hold constant with increased possessions. It doesn't work that way, I'm sorry. They would more than likely decline due to stamina because of the laws of physics. Even if they did decline (likely) combined with the increased possession he could end up with more advantageous stats, or they could decline enough to end up with less advantageous stats than his current ones. I don't know and neither do you.


----------



## Dre

The thing is when you're comparing two players it's not about putting the numbers in categories and just checking off who's superior in more places.


----------



## Adam

Dre™;5924592 said:


> The thing is when you're comparing two players it's not about putting the numbers in categories and just checking off who's superior in more places.


I think Wade and LeBron are essentially a wash. Wade gives you more ballhandling (can play point for you) and LeBron is a tougher force who can give you more rebounding. The difference is the size which means they don't play the same position so they physically are limited: LeBron can't come off screens and bring the ball up the court like Wade and Wade can't rebound and cover as much space on the court as well as LeBron. I think if they both switched height's and weights 6' 4" LeBron would be as good as 6' 4" Wade and 6' 8" Wade would be as good as 6' 8" LeBron. They each maximize their potential.


----------



## kflo

adam - i haven't seen evidence that efficiency goes down as pace goes up. the top 4 teams in offensive efficiency this season are 30th, 4th, 5th, and 25th in pace. the suns have been the most efficient and the fastest paced in prior years. 

no, we don't know what would happen with more or less possessions. we do know what happens in the possessions they do have. you want to ignore pace and move to non-pace-adjusted, without a solid argument as to why.


----------



## Adam

kflo said:


> adam - i haven't seen evidence that efficiency goes down as pace goes up. the top 4 teams in offensive efficiency this season are 30th, 4th, 5th, and 25th in pace. the suns have been the most efficient and the fastest paced in prior years.
> 
> no, we don't know what would happen with more or less possessions. we do know what happens in the possessions they do have. you want to ignore pace and move to non-pace-adjusted, without a solid argument as to why.


Pioneer said that LeBron's assists, etc. would increase if his team played at a higher pace. My whole point is that you can't make that claim with total confidence. What if increasing pace, decreased their defense, which decreased their offensive efficiency, killed their team dynamic, lowering LeBron's assists, forcing him to become more of a burden on offense and allowing opposing teams to focus on him more and stop him lowering his points. You can't just say that increased pace would increase his stats. There's too many factors to consider (team dynamic, etc.)

I don't really want to ignore pace. I think he had a great point if he had said, "LeBron has X stats and his team plays only at this pace so if they played at an increased pace his stats could possibly be higher." I think that you go one step too far in saying that increasing Cavs' pace would thereby increase LeBron's stats.


----------



## kflo

i would say there's no reason to adjust his stats for a faster pace because it's his pace adjusted stats that matter more anyway.


----------



## Dre

I'm going to disagree with your assessment 93. They're both 99th percentile players so the differences are going to be small. 

I feel like Lebron's a slightly better passer, and I can't ignore Lebron's size advantage, that's the major part of his edge. Ignoring the production and hypotheticals, and just on the strength of who you'd want on your team I'd say Lebron's size makes him the better weapon. His package of size, power and speed is very likely the most impressive in basketball history. Not to mention I think Lebron's a better defender because he can matchup with more players. He's so strong he could very well contain a good portion of post players in the league.

I just can't get over how his size takes him out of the realm of regular wing players. He could very well be Amare Stoudemire if he really wanted to, but then he turns around and drops 15 assists.


----------



## Blue

who is adam?


----------



## Pioneer10

The '93 Heat said:


> Pioneer said that LeBron's assists, etc. would increase if his team played at a higher pace. My whole point is that you can't make that claim with total confidence. What if increasing pace, decreased their defense, which decreased their offensive efficiency, killed their team dynamic, lowering LeBron's assists, forcing him to become more of a burden on offense and allowing opposing teams to focus on him more and stop him lowering his points. You can't just say that increased pace would increase his stats. There's too many factors to consider (team dynamic, etc.)


increasing pace doesn't automatically equate with any of the following like decreasing defnse, decreasing offensive efficiency. Adjusting for pace tells you how much value a player add for each possession. So a player like James contributes more to each possession for the Cavs versus Wade for the Heat. This isn't a knock on Wade who by any stretch is having a great season but by the statsical measures that contribute to winning James is (very slightly mind you) more valuable to his team. The Cavs play at a slower pace then the Heat but at their pace, Lebron contributes more. It's not so simple as saying per game for Lebron would be better if the Cavs played the same number of possesions, it's per possesion numbers are more valuable then per game numbers in determining a player's value


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Blue Magic said:


> who is adam?


93'


----------



## myst

> LOS ANGELES — Shaquille O’Neal stumbled into a condition he did not recognize. He was stumped.
> 
> He had seen everything he needed to see. Kobe Bryant. Dwyane Wade. LeBron James. He has watched more of their games than he ever thought he would. He has played with Wade and Bryant. He has been an MVP himself and had a two-time MVP, Steve Nash, for a teammate.
> 
> O’Neal was given a simple, direct question that has filled locker rooms, barrooms and chat rooms for weeks: Who is the NBA’s Most Valuable Player?
> 
> He had no idea.
> 
> “This year I can say it’s very close,” said O’Neal, unable to pick a preference. “Those three are playing above everybody else.
> 
> “This is the closest it’s been in a while. Last year, Kobe was a little bit better than everybody. He deserved it. This year is hard. I’ve got young boys now who really like those three, so I watch a lot of games. I watch those guys. It’s hard. I feel for (the media voters). But this year, you can’t go wrong.”
> 
> That’s one way to look at it. But to others, who would argue their favorite’s credentials offer irrefutable evidence that one player is unquestionably most worthy, voters cannot go right.
> 
> Bryant, James and Wade, members of a different sort of Big Three, have each built an unusually strong case that would seem to have everything — except something separating himself from the others.
> 
> “It’s too close to call,” said Rockets forward Shane Battier, who has matched up with all three. “Brent (Barry) and I were having the conversation, have there ever been co-MVPs? If (commissioner) David Stern wanted to show that he wants to be progressive, he could give co-MVPs.”
> 
> The NBA provides no guidelines to the 123 media members who vote, no criteria to weigh. The 27 different winners since the MVP was instituted for the 1955-56 season do not offer a guide. Value seems to be a consideration but not always the primary qualification.
> 
> “A couple times, I got snuffed,” O’Neal said. “I’ve come to the conclusion I don’t really know what the criteria is.”
> Delayed candidacy
> 
> With his spectacular play since the All-Star break, Wade has moved into what appeared to be a two-man race. He has carried the Heat from the league’s worst record last season to fifth place in the Eastern Conference, often sharing the court with first- and second-year players.
> 
> Since the break, Wade has averaged 33.5 points (making 51.5 percent of his shots), 8.5 assists, 5.1 rebounds and 2.7 steals. He has led the Heat in scoring 66 times this season. He even has blocked shots in the last minute or in overtime to key eight wins.
> 
> Yet for all Wade has done, his team does not seem to be the sort that earns its star an MVP. In the past 26 years (excluding the 50-game lockout season), every MVP’s team has won at least 50 games.
> 
> “I think it’s between LeBron and Kobe,” Battier said. “Dwyane is probably the MIP, most important player. MVP is too close to call, but I think when you consider the season, it’s between LeBron and Kobe.”
> 
> The Lakers, who return home to play the Rockets tonight, are two games behind the Cavaliers in the race for the NBA’s best record. But they have beaten Cleveland in both meetings this season — giving the Cavs their only home loss — and also swept the series against the reigning champion Celtics.
> 
> Bryant, the 2007-08 MVP, has averaged 27.3 points, 5.4 rebounds and 4.9 assists.
> West vs. East
> 
> “I think it’s Kobe,” Rockets center Yao Ming said without hesitation. “He is in the Western Conference. I think that takes more. If the Lakers were in the East, they’d probably win 70 games.”
> 
> James, however, has led Cleveland to the league’s best record, including a 25-4 record against the West. He is the only player in the NBA averaging at least 28 points, seven rebounds, and seven assists and is on pace to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks, something only Kevin Garnett, Scottie Pippen and Dave Cowens have done.
> 
> Pippen, however, never won the MVP, and Cowens and Garnett did not win in the seasons they accomplished that rare feat.
> 
> “Kobe is an assassin,” O’Neal said. “He’s the type who can put all kinds of points in the bag and pull out 50. LeBron is the ultimate player: can get his, get everyone else involved, a great team player. D-Wade is a mixture of both. He can get his when he wants to but also keep everyone else involved.
> 
> “This year is hard. I can’t really say who deserves it.”
> 
> And the debate continues.


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6356767.html


----------



## Dre

And this is why I say while you may be able to play basketball, it doesn't mean you're a good evaluator/analyst. It's really not a close race at all, but the NBA is such a fraternity it's hard to put stock into anything but one of these guys coming into your town and ripping you up, they don't care about all the **** we talk about in here.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

The fact people in the media keep portraying the race as close between Kobe and LBJ means that to really lock up MVP, the Cavs will have to finish ahead in the standings. If they don't or end up tied, it's looking like Kobe could get it. 

Kobe would have to play well for LA to win out the remaining games and he has the Vet respect, so Lebron will have to finish strong to get the award.


----------



## Dre

I don't know, I think most analysts I've heard and read agree Lebron is having the best year. It's easy to gauge the momentum of this award because the actual voters of the award are the people you see and read everyday, so it's kind of like cheating.

I just don't see how you can go against Lebron, even if the Lakers do end up with a better record. Kobe was the traditional "best player on the best team" last year, but Lebron is having a historical year on a comparable team.


----------



## kflo

c'mon - that article quoted a bunch of western conference guys and a guy who rediscovered his love for kobe. it's not going to be close, regardless of if the lakers come in a game ahead.


----------



## Diable

The people in the media are evaluating Kobe's reputation rather than his actual performance on the court.If you looked at it from any objective standpoint you'd conclude that there's not much difference between him and a lot of guys who aren't even mentioned.Simple question.Has Kobe been more valuable to the Lakers than Roy has been to the Blazers?Has he really had a markedly better year than Roy?I don't think you can answer yes to either question.


----------



## myst

kflo said:


> c'mon - that article quoted a bunch of western conference guys and a guy who rediscovered his love for kobe. it's not going to be close, regardless of if the lakers come in a game ahead.


That's why I posted it, it had a lot of peoples opinions as opposed to one writer.


----------



## hendrix2430

Benedict_Boozer said:


> The fact people in the media keep portraying the race as close between Kobe and LBJ means that to really lock up MVP, the Cavs will have to finish ahead in the standings. If they don't or end up tied, it's looking like Kobe could get it.
> 
> Kobe would have to play well for LA to win out the remaining games and he has the Vet respect, so Lebron will have to finish strong to get the award.


Well, if Kobe wins it, there will be riot downtown C town! 

No really, I don't see how Kobe wins it. If Lebron doesn't win it this year, he'll never win it, because there will always be an "excuse".


----------



## Cap

Nash won it twice in a row and was seriously considered for a 3rd, so Kobe winning it this year would certainly not surprise anyone (probably a make-up for prior years), but would obviously be a joke nonetheless only because LeBron is simply having a flat out better year period, end of story. He has just been too ridiculous, all time ridiculous. He's not a DPOY yet his D is now suddenly very, very notable, and his consistently great efficiency has only been matched by a prime Jordan.

Something bad would have to happen over the next 7 games for LeBron and the Cavs, though, for him not to get it. I'd be shocked if netting one or two more wins got Kobe an MVP. Cavs would really have to lose nearly all of their remaining games and he'd have to average 17/5/5/40% or something to lose it.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

Kobe has a 0% chance of winning the MVP award, but he will finish higher in the voting than he should. LeBron should win it with Howard as the runner up and Wade in 3rd. Kobe should finish no higher than 4th. Too bad that is not how it will play out. :/


----------



## Blue

Why the hell should Wade be 3rd? Because he's the scoring leader?? No, CP3 has better #'s across the board & is doing it on the better team. Wade should be no higher than 5th, imo.


----------



## myst

Blue Magic said:


> CP3 has better #'s across the board


Does he?


How many games has CP3 won with his defense? How many has he won with a game winner? How many times did CP3 single handedly come back from 15 points down in the fourth quarter? Is CP3 the one breaking records this year?

You obviously haven't been watching Wade play this season.


----------



## Blue

> Does he?
> 
> 
> How many games has CP3 won with his defense? How many has he won with a game winner? How many times did CP3 single handedly come back from 15 points down in the fourth quarter? Is CP3 the one breaking records this year?
> 
> You obviously haven't been watching Wade play this season.


Yes. Just because I think CP3 deserves it more means I dont watch Wade? CP3 has carried an injury riddled Hornets team to 47 wins this year. He leads the league in stls. He leads the league in assits. He's the more efficient scorer... You act like CP3 hasn't been the driving force behind his teams success like Wade has, just because he isn't praised on ESPN every night. The little dude is a winner. And i've watched plenty of Wade, and he's been tearing it up too... Especially when he plays my Magic.... But damn, CP3 is a little beast. Check the #'s and how the guy plays. He was pretty much responsible for NO's win over the Spurs the other day. His clutchness on both ends of the court is impressive and evidently VERY underrated.

Look at the win shares:

*Offensive Win Shares*(esimated # of wins contributed due to a player's offense)
CP3: 11.5
Wade: 9.2

*Defensive Win Shares:*(estimated # of wins contributed due to a player's defense)
CP3: 4.4
Wade: 4.1

*Total Win Shares*(estimated # of wins contributed by a player on the whole)
CP3: 15.9
Wade: 13.2


----------



## gi0rdun

myst said:


> Does he?
> 
> 
> How many games has CP3 won with his defense? How many has he won with a game winner? How many times did CP3 single handedly come back from 15 points down in the fourth quarter? Is CP3 the one breaking records this year?
> 
> You obviously haven't been watching Wade play this season.


CP3 broke that steals record and I think he had a record breaking 20-10 streak or something early on in the season. I think he's made 1 gamewinner and a couple of gamewinning assists which kind of count because most of those gamewinners are wide open and he created the play. Not too sure about comebacks...

Wade is basically the Kobe Bryant of the 05/06 season. Great numbers, ok team record.


----------



## croco

Blue Magic said:


> Yes. Just because I think CP3 deserves it more means I dont watch Wade? CP3 has carried an injury riddled Hornets team to 47 wins this year. He leads the league in stls. He leads the league in assits. *He's the more efficient scorer... *


No. If Paul was great a scorer as Wade, he'd be enjoying the greatest single season in the history of the NBA. They are pretty much a wash in terms of efficiency though, Paul is creating more for teammates while Wade is scoring at an unbelievable rate this season.


----------



## BlackNRed

Blue Magic said:


> Yes. Just because I think CP3 deserves it more means I dont watch Wade? CP3 has carried an injury riddled Hornets team to 47 wins this year. He leads the league in stls. He leads the league in assits. He's the more efficient scorer... You act like CP3 hasn't been the driving force behind his teams success like Wade has, just because he isn't praised on ESPN every night. The little dude is a winner. And i've watched plenty of Wade, and he's been tearing it up too... Especially when he plays my Magic.... But damn, CP3 is a little beast. Check the #'s and how the guy plays. He was pretty much responsible for NO's win over the Spurs the other day. His clutchness on both ends of the court is impressive and evidently VERY underrated.
> 
> Look at the win shares:
> 
> *Offensive Win Shares*(esimated # of wins contributed due to a player's offense)
> CP3: 11.5
> Wade: 9.2
> 
> *Defensive Win Shares:*(estimated # of wins contributed due to a player's defense)
> CP3: 4.4
> Wade: 4.1
> 
> *Total Win Shares*(estimated # of wins contributed by a player on the whole)
> CP3: 15.9
> Wade: 13.2


First of all i've never heard of this stat so I made an attempt to look it up, though I still can't believe people lean on these made up stats so hard to make a point.

It's kind of funny because then I read this.



> Win Shares is a measure that purports to measure a player’s total impact on games won and takes both offense and defense into account. Therefore, one could make the statement that “according to Win Shares, player X is a more productive player than player Y.” But like always, you have to understand that any mathematical model has weaknesses so this can’t stand as it’s own argument. It must be a supplement to a case built on personal observation, personal analysis and other stats/opinion.


I'm not a fan of things like this because there's no assurance of accuracy. There's no assurance the the estimated rating for a player the person gave for a player was accurate, and if thats the case steps 2 through 8 or however many goes into it are all wrong as well.

I'd also like to ask for a link on those stats for this particular season I couldn't find them myself.


----------



## Blue

croco said:


> No. If Paul was great a scorer as Wade, he'd be enjoying the greatest single season in the history of the NBA. They are pretty much a wash in terms of efficiency though, Paul is creating more for teammates while Wade is scoring at an unbelievable rate this season.


The greatest single season in the history of the NBA @ what? @ Scoring?? Are you joking... He is the leader scorer THIS year but Kobe's 05-06 season was greater than this season scoring wise... I'm sure there are many others.....

And Yes. Paul is the more efficient scorer, he just doesnt shoot as much... 

Let's take another look @ the #'s:

*FG%*
CP3: .503
Wade: .489

*3P%*
CP3: .348
Wade: .296

*FT%*
CP3: .873
Wade: .764

For those that only believe in advance stats...

*TS%*
CP3: .601
Wade: .569

*eFG%*
CP3: .528
Wade: .511


----------



## croco

Blue Magic said:


> The greatest single season in the history of the NBA @ what? @ Scoring?? Are you joking... He is the leader scorer THIS year. Kobe's 05-06 season was greater than season scoring wise...
> 
> And Yes. Paul is a more efficient scorer, he doesnt shoot as much as Wade does...
> 
> Let's take another look @ the #'s:
> 
> *FG%*
> CP3: .503
> Wade: .489
> 
> *3P%*
> CP3: .348
> Wade: .296
> 
> *FT%*
> CP3: .873
> Wade: .764
> 
> For that only believe in advance stats...
> 
> *TS%*
> CP3: .601
> Wade: .569
> 
> *eFG%*
> CP3: .528
> Wade: .511


Let's just ignore usage rate, shall we. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.


----------



## Blue

Heated said:


> First of all i've never heard of this stat so I made an attempt to look it up, though I still can't believe people lean on these made up stats so hard to make a point.
> 
> It's kind of funny because then I read this.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a fan of things like this because there's no assurance of accuracy. There's no assurance the the estimated rating for a player the person gave for a player was accurate, and if thats the case steps 2 through 8 or however many goes into it are all wrong as well.
> 
> I'd also like to ask for a link on those stats for this particular season I couldn't find them myself.


You're preaching to the choir. I hate advanced stats myself, but most of the people I debate on here laugh if you dont use them, so i started using them myself... And I agree that it can definitely be flawed, but I was just using it to show that Wade isn't blowing Paul away... Paul has had a big impact on his teams success this year, just like all of the others.

Here's the link I was using to compare the two:
http://www.basketball-reference.com...sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2009&p2=paulch01&y2=2009


----------



## Blue

croco said:


> Let's just ignore usage rate, shall we. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.


Yes we shall, because they both play pretty much an equal amount of minutes and we are also ignoring offensive rating, which estimates the # of points a a given player is responsible for per 100 possessions(and guess who wins that one?). 

The point is tho, if team record is soo important, I dont see how DWade is a unanimous top 3 MVP candidate, especially ahead of CP3. He is one of my favorite players, but considering the #'s and the records, I have LBJ, Dwight, CP3, & Kobe as 4 more deserving guys...


----------



## GrandKenyon6

It's amazing how little consideration Howard is getting for MVP. He is clearly the 2nd best candidate.


----------



## croco

Blue Magic said:


> You're preaching to the choir. I hate advanced stats myself, but most of the people I debate on here laugh if you dont use them, so i started using them myself... And I agree that it can definitely be flawed, but I was just using it to show that Wade isn't blowing Paul away... Paul has had a big impact on his teams success this year, just like all of the others.
> 
> Here's the link I was using to compare the two:
> http://www.basketball-reference.com...sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2009&p2=paulch01&y2=2009


What's to hate about the development of stats ? Should we just make a cut and continue to use the basic stats from 50 years ago exclusively ? The game today is different, as are our possibilites to analyze. All it takes is a little time to read the explanations, 99 % of "advanced" stats are easy to understand. What it takes is the willigness to take advantage of the opportunity, raw stats do not tell the whole story and they are convenient.


----------



## croco

Blue Magic said:


> Yes we shall, because they both play pretty much an equal amount of minutes. The point is tho, if team record is soo important, I dont see how DWade is a unanimous top 3 MVP candidate. He is one of my favorite players, but considering the #'s and the records, I have LBJ, Dwight, CP3, & Kobe as 4 more deserving guys...


There is no clear-cut order after Lebron, I agree with that. Lebron is clearly the MVP though, I would have no problem with putting any of the four guys you mentioned at #2.


----------



## Blue

croco said:


> What's to hate about the development of stats ? Should we just make a cut and continue to use the basic stats from 50 years ago exclusively ? The game today is different, as are our possibilites to analyze. All it takes is a little time to read the explanations, 99 % of "advanced" stats are easy to understand. What it takes is the willigness to take advantage of the opportunity, raw stats do not tell the whole story and they are convenient.


Because some of the advanced stats are just hypotheticals, and they dont factor in things like conditioning & fatigue, what unit you playing against or with, etc... And like Myst was saying, whenever you deal with #'s and hypotheticals, there's gonna be a margin for error. 

Like, for example, how can you exactly say how many wins Chris Paul is responsible for because of his defense? Some things just cant really be totally measured efficiently..... And also, the way #'s translate hypothetically, doesnt necessarily mean that they would translate the same way in reality. There's just too many intangibles involved with alot of them that you cant take them all @ 100% face value.


----------



## BlackNRed

Blue Magic said:


> You're preaching to the choir. I hate advanced stats myself, but most of the people I debate on here laugh if you dont use them, so i started using them myself... And I agree that it can definitely be flawed, but I was just using it to show that Wade isn't blowing Paul away... Paul has had a big impact on his teams success this year, just like all of the others.
> 
> Here's the link I was using to compare the two:
> http://www.basketball-reference.com...sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2009&p2=paulch01&y2=2009


Thanks for the link. i'd be lying if I said I understood half these in depth stats so I can't really argue for or against them, so I won't attempt to.

I agree that Paul deserves as much consideration as Wade for MVP, but I definitely don't agree that he's been better than Wade defensively for the year.


----------



## croco

Blue Magic said:


> Because some of the advanced stats are just hypotheticals, and they dont factor in things like conditioning & fatigue, what unit you playing against, etc... And like Myst was saying, whenever you deal with #'s and hypotheticals, there's gonna be a margin for error.
> 
> Like, for example, how can you exactly say how many wins Chris Paul is responsible for because of his defense? Some things just cant really be totally measured efficiently..... And also, the way #'s translate hypothetically, doesnt necessarily mean that they would translate the same way in reality. There's just too many intangibles involved with alot of them that you cant take them all @ 100% face value.


http://ballhype.com/story/love_and_mathematics_pt_2_the_paul_millsap_quandary/

There is always a margin of error, no stat is perfect. However, advanced stats were developped to recude and minimize the margin of error, that is one intention.


----------



## BlackNRed

croco said:


> All it takes is a little time to read the explanations, 99 % of "advanced" stats are easy to understand. What it takes is the willigness to take advantage of the opportunity.


Sorry but speak for yourself. eace: I don't find them easy to understand, I aint no mathematician. You can think you understand it but I doubt you really do. You may understand their explanation for the stat, but if you looked at the formula and not the stat could you follow the steps and come up with the same number? I doubt it, because as far as I can tell it all starts with an estimate.


----------



## myst

> Want some bonus Chris Paul?
> 
> How 'bout his MVP ballot?
> 
> "I talk to D-Wade all the time," Paul said. "I talk to Bron about every day. D-Wade knows he's been unbelievable, but Bron has been unbelievable, too. You look at the Cavs' record right now. They have 60 wins already. It's ridiculous.
> 
> "So right now I'd have to give the edge to LeBron. And I think it has to do with how well the Cavs have played. D-Wade doesn't have the supporting cast LeBron has, but they're like 36-1 at home. That's just unheard of."


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090404-05

So by the sounds of it, it seems like Wade would be second on CP3's ballot.


----------



## croco

Heated said:


> Sorry but speak for yourself. eace: I don't find them easy to understand, I aint no mathematician. You can think you understand it but I doubt you really do. You may understand their explanation for the stat, but if you looked at the formula and not the stat could you follow the steps and come up with the same number? I doubt it, because as far as I can tell it all starts with an estimate.


There is not always a formula that had to be developed, some are based on facts that can't be argued. Let's just take EFG% e.g., is the explanation really hard to understand ? 



> *EFG%*
> 
> Effective Field Goal Percentage; the formula is (FG + 0.5 * 3P) / FGA. This statistic adjusts for the fact that a 3-point field goal is worth one more point than a 2-point field goal. For example, suppose Player A goes 4 for 10 with 2 threes, while Player B goes 5 for 10 with 0 threes. Each player would have 10 points from field goals, and thus would have the same effective field goal percentage (50%).


----------



## BlackNRed

croco said:


> There is not always a formula that had to be developed, some are based on facts that can't be argued. Let's just take EFG% e.g., is the explanation really hard to understand ?


No, that one is pretty simple, but I can't say i'm a fan of the stat, So 

If player A is a little more effective than player B inside 30 ft, but player B is a little more effective than player A from 3, player B would get the higher EFG% correct?

Really it's just an extension of regular FG% that caters to higher % 3 pt shooters, or volume shooters simply because it's techincally a lower % shot.


----------



## Blue

Heated said:


> No, that one is pretty simple, but I can't say i'm a fan of the stat, So
> 
> If player A is a little more effective than player B inside 30 ft, but player B is a little more effective than player A from 3, player B would get the higher EFG% correct?
> 
> Really it's just an extension of regular FG% that caters to higher % 3 pt shooters, or volume shooters simply because it's techincally a lower % shot.


It's relative. It would depend on the % of shots you take from each spot, soo shot selection would play a role...


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## Pioneer10

Heated said:


> No, that one is pretty simple, but I can't say i'm a fan of the stat, So
> 
> If player A is a little more effective than player B inside 30 ft, but player B is a little more effective than player A from 3, player B would get the higher EFG% correct?
> 
> Really it's just an extension of regular FG% that caters to higher % 3 pt shooters, or volume shooters simply because it's techincally a lower % shot.


That why if you get into "advanced stats" more you'll realize that TS% is the best measure of scoring efficiency: it takes into account FG, FT's, 3pts, volume, and percentages into account.

I wish people would stop lumping all advanced states into one group and then bashing them: each stats whether advanced or not has weaknesses but some are FAR more valuable then others: TS% and rebound rate are easily the two best stats in terms of looking at specifics - scoring efficiency and rebounding. PER is the best overall measure of offensive production particularly if you combine it with minutes played (any overall measure will have more flaws then specific stats). After that it's hit or miss: I personally like +/- and adjusted +/- but these can be heavily skewed by team makeup. By far the "worst" states and worst meaning ones with big margins of error are any of the defensive stats.


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## SheriffKilla

Honestly just watchin basketball NO STATS allowed I gotta say Wade is the best player the season...

If you really NEED need a statistical representation for my reasoning I would say look at the olympic team stats when wade had the best per minute numbers... I would still say thats inaccurate though cuz Im talkin strictly watchin these guys play no stats....


Historically though I have a feeling LeBron will eventually pass MJ as the GOAT


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## Brandname

fjkdsi said:


> Honestly just watchin basketball NO STATS allowed I gotta say* Wade is the best player the season...
> *
> If you really *NEED need a statistical representation for my reasoning I would say look at the olympic team stats* when wade had the best per minute numbers... I would still say thats inaccurate though cuz Im talkin strictly watchin these guys play no stats....
> 
> 
> Historically though I have a feeling LeBron will eventually pass MJ as the GOAT


:wtf:


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## Basel

Anyone else think the title of this thread should be renamed? There's really nothing to discuss anymore.

LeBron = :mvp:

Also, I just wanted a reason to use the new smiley.


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## Instinctive

Wade only started to play super well until the season almost came to an end. James on the other hand has been playing consistent and lights out all year. In this year’s race Bryant and James aren’t even in the same league as Wade. And just look at that statement in positive eyes. The Lakers and Cavaliers are at the top and it’s a known fact that those two very popular star players for those teams are both better than Wade. It’s a toss up between James and Bryant, and I think this is Jame’s year.


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## Blue

CP3 4 MvP! ftw!


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## sonicFLAME6

There is no way possible Lebron does not get the MVP. Best player on the team with the best record in the NBA. Leading by example, has all the stats to back him up. He is playing at an amazing level.


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## myst

Instinctive said:


> Wade only started to play super well until the season almost came to an end. James on the other hand has been playing consistent and lights out all year. In this year’s race Bryant and James aren’t even in the same league as Wade. And just look at that statement in positive eyes. The Lakers and Cavaliers are at the top and it’s a known fact that those two very popular star players for those teams are both better than Wade. It’s a toss up between James and Bryant, and I think this is Jame’s year.


Wade was leading the league in scoring the entire season. Plus the Heat were predicted to be 9th-10th in the East, and Wade has kept them from 4th-7th seed all season.


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## NewAgeBaller

Instinctive said:


> Wade only started to play super well until the season almost came to an end.


Wrong. He's been terrific all season and became even better just after the all-star break, which is still not when "the season almost came to an end".



Instinctive said:


> James on the other hand has been playing consistent and lights out all year.


Right. He's been great.



Instinctive said:


> In this year’s race Bryant and James aren’t even in the same league as Wade. And just look at that statement in positive eyes.


Wrong. At the least they are on the same tier, and in my and many others opinions, its Lebron, then Wade, then Kobe. Thats unless you're using the precedent argument which is dumb to follow to begin with when you don't even like it, and regardless they are "in the same league".



Instinctive said:


> The Lakers and Cavaliers are at the top


Right. They are.



Instinctive said:


> and it’s a known fact that those two very popular star players for those teams are both better than Wade.


Wrong. Just no.



Instinctive said:


> It’s a toss up between James and Bryant, and I think this is Jame’s year.


If its between James and Bryant, its not a toss-up at all. Their team records are similar, James has been playing better, and James means more to his team.

And just an update, I still think this is Lebron's year, not Wade's and certainly not time for a Kobe repeat..


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## myst

Jay Crawford just picked Wade for MVP, and he is a Lebron homer from Cleveland. So did Jon Barry, and he hates the Heat.


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## myst

The ESPN writers picked their ballots and here is the results.



> LeBron James: 89 points (17 first-place votes, 1 second)
> Dwyane Wade: 62 points (1 first-place vote, 8 second, 7 third, 2 fourth)
> Kobe Bryant: 53 points (8 second-place votes, 5 third, 1 fourth, 4 fifth)
> Dwight Howard: 31 points (1 second-place vote, 2 third,10 fourth, 1 fifth)
> Chris Paul: 22 points (3 third-place votes, 3 fourth, 7 fifth)
> Chauncey Billups: 8 points (1 third-place vote, 1 fourth, 3 fifth)
> Paul Pierce: 3 points (1 fourth-place vote, 1 fifth)
> Tony Parker: 2 points (2 fifth-place votes)


http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=MVP09


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## NewAgeBaller

^ That'd be my Top 5 too, only I'm not too sure on how to place CP3.


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## Ras

myst said:


> The ESPN writers picked their ballots and here is the results.
> 
> 
> 
> http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=MVP09


I really have no idea how anyone could justify putting Billups or Parker over LeBron, Wade, Paul, Dwight or Kobe.


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## Ras

myst said:


> Jay Crawford just picked Wade for MVP, and he is a Lebron homer from Cleveland. So did Jon Barry, and he hates the Heat.


As great of an individual season as he's had, he's not going to win MVP. LeBron fits the criteria much better.


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## croco

myst said:


> Jay Crawford just picked Wade for MVP, and he is a Lebron homer from Cleveland. So did Jon Barry, and he hates the Heat.


I hope you don't seriously take Jon Barry of all people to support your case. 

As great as Wade has been - his season ranks right up there with the greatest individual years ever - Lebron has been even better. Let's put stats aside for a second and just ask yourself this question: Replace Lebron with anyone else, do the Cavs still win 66 or 67 games ? To me, the answer is a clear no, not even close.

It's unfortunate because Wade should or could have won an MVP by now, you could have made a case for him in 05 and 06, the next season was cut short due to injuries when he was also on pace to be a candidate.


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## PauloCatarino

Why is this still going on?

Lebron James has the individual stats and team wins;
Kobe Bryant has the team wins and not good-enough stats;
Dwyane Wade and Chris Paul have the stats but not good-enough team wins.

So, it's Lebron James.


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## myst

I know Lebron is going to win, I was just posting information that I run across.


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## Cap

Seriously, these writers are so terrible at their jobs it's not funny anymore. I mean Billups and Parker over LeBron? Really? _Really?_ It just makes me wonder if they're sentient beings. Much like Family Guy, maybe a manatee is just arranging random balls in a swimming pool.


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## BlackNRed

Instinctive said:


> *Wade only started to play super well until the season almost came to an end.* James on the other hand has been playing consistent and lights out all year. *In this year’s race Bryant and James aren’t even in the same league as Wade.* And just look at that statement in positive eyes. The Lakers and Cavaliers are at the top and *it’s a known fact that those two very popular star players for those teams are both better than Wade.* It’s a toss up between James and Bryant, and I think this is Jame’s year.


Whoa junior, slow your role. Lebron will probably get MVP and that's all well and fine, but if you're prepared to make comments like the bold you better be ready to defend that statement, and you certainly haven't. It's alright, you probably don't know any better.


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## rocketeer

Cap said:


> Seriously, these writers are so terrible at their jobs it's not funny anymore. I mean Billups and Parker over LeBron? Really? _Really?_ It just makes me wonder if they're sentient beings. Much like Family Guy, maybe a manatee is just arranging random balls in a swimming pool.


there were 18 writers. lebron had 17 first place votes and 1 second place vote. the only first place vote that didn't go to lebron went to wade.


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## futuristxen

myst said:


> Wade was leading the league in scoring the entire season.


Except when he wasn't, and Lebron was leading the league in scoring.


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## Basel

LeBron = :mvp:

We should just close this thread.


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## myst

futuristxen said:


> Except when he wasn't, and Lebron was leading the league in scoring.


So when I say "the whole season," do you take that to mean literally every night of the year Wade outscored Lebron, or is your level or homerism so high that you have to comment on any "anti-Lebron" remark.



Lebron was ahead of Wade, like a couple of weeks in December? I would say Wade being the leading scorer about 20 out of 25 weeks counts as being the whole season.


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## rayz789

Well since The Cavs clinch the best record in the nba, there should be no doubt in any ones mind that Lebron is the 2008-2009 mvp. If Lebron don't get this award, it be the biggest bs in the history of the nba.


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## BlakeJesus

Yeah I was a pretty big Chris Paul supporter, and he put up great numbers that could easily be considered MVP worthy, but I've seen the light lately. LeBron is unstoppable. 

Top 3 MVPs

LeBron
Wade
Paul


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## BlackNRed

myst said:


> *or is your level or homerism so high that you have to comment on any "anti-Lebron" remark.*


I wouldn't call that an anti-lebron remark. so this person must be beyond homerism. mg:


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## Basel

We can finally unstick this and put all the discussions to rest! LeBron is MVP.


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