# Franchise for H20



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

I know Francis is BYC, so plus fillers blah blah. 


JVG seems annoyed with Francis, and vice versa, I have seen that trade on other message boards, and wanted to propose it here.


Personally I wouldn't do it. Houston has the most fundamentally sound jump shot I have ever seen. I think with marbury and keith spacing out the floor a healthy houston pretty much renders the zone defense ineffective, Francis is good athletic and dynamic, but he also picks up a lot of technicals and seems to freeze his team out.


What do you guys think of this trade ?


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

It would be good for NY because they get another "Star" and it would truly change the face of the knicks. Houston has a max contract and he has been there for ever. It's hard to say how Marberry and Francise would coexist. (mainly sharing the ball). I quess that Francise would have to play the 2 which most people feel is his natural position anyways. 
I don't think this will happen tough. Francise isn't called Franchise for no reason. He has to generate alot of that teams offence buy himself. Maybe that's why VG wants to get rid of him. Imo, think that this would be a bad deal for the rockets.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Franchise should be able to get alot more than Houston..But JVG does love Alan and may actually consider it.I would do it in a HEARTBEAT


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Uh, hello? Are you people thinking straight? How would the Knicks having two young ballhogs do them any good? I would only pick up Francis if I were going to trade him for a big man. The talent is there, but the playstyle is not. Francis won't even give the ball to Yao, why would he give it to anyone else on our frontline?

Pick and huh? What's that?


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

why would houston do it...theyd have no pg, and could geta lot more


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i say no to this trade. the team right now looks pretty good. Lets see if mike sweetney can do anything for the knicks in the post now that he got a few minutes in todays game.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

As the salaries don't match it depends on what else the filler is. Not if it's Kurt Thomas.

But in a straight-up scenario I'd do it for youth and health. I think Francis can be tamed (and I think Van Gundy will be the one to do it) and he's got a more tradeable contract if it doesn't work out.

I still think we need penetrators and Francis does that, and shoot and ball handle. That saidm he's not a good decision maker and has far from peaked. So assuming Allan's health improves I'd say we'd take a step back this year in doing it but each year going forward it becomes more and more the better deal.

That said I agree with the post that said it doesn't make sense for Houston to take on another SG (Mobley is more than sufficient) and still not have a real PG. So, it'll never happen unless it's in a blockbuster three-way that nets Houston a pretty good PG too.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

first off,this trade will never ever happen and i havent even looked at the salaries..As much as Van Gundy may like Houston,hes not gonna give up Franchise for him..But if he is willing,send him over express mail..

Rashidi,Houston is just about untradeable..Van Gundy may be the only taker,and as you pointed out,Houston can only fetch,Wahad,fortson and a bradley..Thats garbage

Franchise is a free shot..If he doesnt work out,he is very easy to trade..Its really a moot point since it aint gonna happen...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Steve Francis = Jamal Crawford with a maxed contract.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Execpt Chicago would trade Crawford for Francis in a heartbeat. 

Francis is much more physical and aggressive. If the Rockets didn't have Yao you can be sure Van Gundy wouldn't be trying to alter Francis' game all that much. Crawford has talent but he's not exactly "Jamalie Franchise" in Chicago, who at 22nd in the league in points scored could stand to score a few more.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Execpt Chicago would trade Crawford for Francis in a heartbeat.


Doubtful. 



> If the Rockets didn't have Yao you can be sure Van Gundy wouldn't be trying to alter Francis' game all that much.


Very doubtful.



> Crawford has talent but he's not exactly "Jamalie Franchise" in Chicago


In case you haven't noticed, Francis has talent, but he isn't exactly "Stevie Franchise" in Houston either. Considering he got the nickname in his rookie year, I'm going to give him a more suitable name. How's "premature"?



> who at 22nd in the league in points scored could stand to score a few more.


LMAO.

Jamal Crawford
17.1 ppg
5.4 apg
2.4 tpg
.390 fg%
.316 3pt% (95-301)
34.8 mpg

Steve Francis
16.6 ppg
5.9 apg
3.7 tpg
.397 fg%
.296 (47-159)
39.7 mpg

Francis plays 5 more minutes than Crawford and scores LESS. It looks like someone else could stand to score more. When you said 22nd in the league in scoring, were you referring to Francis? Crawford also has a higher 2pt% and 3pt%, and he doesn't exactly have a post presence drawing double teams for him.


Talk about bone-headed comments of the day.

Crawford btw is getting those 5 assists at the SG position. Kirk Hinrich is also averaging 5 assists as the starting PG. If Crawford were playing 39 mpg at PG, without competition from Hinrich, I think it is safe to say he would average a bit more than 5.4 assists.

Now, explain to me again why Chicago would want to trade Jamal Crawford for a more expensive version? Francis grabs more rebounds, but is that worth 8 million more per season? And you point out that Francis is still peaking, but Crawford is 2 years younger, doesn't the same logic apply to him? He hardly played his first 2 years due to injury, so how do you know whether or not he's got less potential than Francis? The only reason Francis even made the all-star team this year is because he was voted on. It's clear that he'd be far better off playing SG like Allen Iverson, but he doesn't want to change positions because that would result in best friend Cuttino getting traded for a real PG. What a team player.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> I know Francis is BYC, so plus fillers blah blah.
> 
> 
> ...


Because Francis is BYC you need a 3rd team involved. One whom is under the cap like Utah. But if Utah is getting involved, they would want Francis themselves no? Although Francis's BYC status I think ends this summer.

-Petey


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> LMAO.
> ...


Hubba hubba, a nice stats attack. But when I spoke of 22nd in the league I was talking about Chicago as a team.




> Talk about bone-headed comments of the day.


Bone-headed? I'm starting to think you may not like me.

Okay, genius (er, Shandon). It may take a bone-head like me to follow my own logic but let's give a smarty pants like you a chance.

What you have deftly done is established that these two guys paths are crossing at this moment in space-time (stat wise), but I'd suggest they are on different trajectories.

Career stats:

Francis:
Year MPG FG% RPG APG PPG
99-00 36.1 445 5.3 6.6 18
00-01 39.9 451 6.9 6.5 19.9
01-02 41.1 417 7.0 6.4 21.6
02-03 41.1 435 6.2 6.2 21.0
Van Gundy arrives:
03-04 39.8 398 5.4 5.9 16.8

Crawford:
Year MPG FG% RPG APG PPG
00-01 17.2 352 1.5 2.3 4.6
01-02 20.9 476 1.5 2.4 9.3
02-03 24.9 413 2.3 4.2 10.7
03-04 34.8 390 3.4 5.4 17.1

So tell me, when you're not laughing your a** off, what do you see? I see that Crawford in his fourth year is nearing but not obtaining Francis' rookie numbers, and that Van Gundy is reigning in Francis' production. Why that makes me bone-headed and get's you giddy I don't get.

Also consider that Houston needs lower production from Francis than Chicago does of Crawford.

03-04

Houston:
Ming 16.1 PPG
Mobley 15.3
Jackson 12.1
Taylor 11.9


Chicago:
Curry 13.4 PPG
Hinrich 10.7 
Gill 10.2
Chandler 10.2

That's what I meant when I sugessted Chicago (at 22nd in the league) needs more scoring and has a right to expect they'd get more from Francis. Okay, Shandon?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

LMAO:grinning: 

I was waiting for the counterpunch!!!!!!!!!!

I knew as soon as i saw rashidi post "bonehead " of the day,it would be like old times...

To me the bottom line is,if anyone is stupid enough to trade Francis for Houston,the by all means,Pull the #$^%$ trigger


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I mean I know I get a bit testy when he tries to tell us Layden, Chaney, Eisley were good fits for this team, but he's this passionate about everything!!!

He's wearing me frekkin out...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Crawford:
> Year MPG FG% RPG APG PPG
> 00-01 17.2 352 1.5 2.3 4.6
> 01-02 20.9 476 1.5 2.4 9.3
> ...


Crawford:
Year MPG FG% RPG APG PPG

00-01 17.2 352 1.5 2.3 4.6

Tim Floyd is coach. Bulls have 3 rookie PGs. Ron Mercer plays 2500 minutes, Fred Hoiberg plays 2200 mins (which means Hoiberg spent a great deal of time at PG).

01-02 20.9 476 1.5 2.4 9.3

Tim Floyd quits.
Bill Cartwright arrives.
Jalen Rose arrives.
Crawford injury arrives.

02-03 24.9 413 2.3 4.2 10.7

Jay Williams arrives.
Crawford outperforms him despite having backup role.

03-04 34.8 390 3.4 5.4 17.1

Kirk Hinrich arrives.
Scott Skiles arrives.

Crawford has had 3 coaching changes in his 4 year career, and has consistently had competition at PG. Francis had Rudy Tomjanovich, and the only other PGs to come into Houston have been Moochie Norris, Mike Wilks, Oscar Torres, Tierre Brown, Mark Jackson, and Tito Maddux. What a murderer's row. Crawford was not entrusted with a starting job (and it's not even at PG) until this year, so it sure seems like you're quick to pass judgement on him. The last time the Rockets went to the playoffs was when Francis played with Olajuwon and Barkley.

Francis was the starting PG from day 1. Would Francis perform as well as Jamal has if he were in his situation? And again, Crawford is younger than Francis. Give Crawford the same amount of minutes and the same role Francis has had, and you'd get a similar contribution, plain and simple. Maybe 2 fewer points and 2 fewer rebounds, but also 8 million dollars cheaper. Trade Francis for Crawford and the Rockets are still a playoff team, and the Bulls are still a lottery team.



> Chicago:
> Curry 13.4 PPG
> Hinrich 10.7
> Gill 10.2
> Chandler 10.2


Eddy Curry: 27.8 mpg
Kirk Hinrich: 34.3 mpg
Kendall Gill: 26.3 mpg
Tyson Chandler: 24.9 mpg (ony 14 games)
Antonio Davis: 8.7 ppg in 30.7 mpg
Jerome Williams: 7.7 ppg in 26.3 mpg
Ronald Dupree: 7.1 ppg in 19.1 mpg

The Bulls have a bigger rotation than the Rockets. Van Gundy uses 8 man rotations. Chicago is using a lot more than 8.

Also, scoring is down across the board in the league. Last year the scoring leader was McGrady at 32 ppg.  Kobe was 2nd at 30. Iverson right now is 1st with 27.5, McGrady 2nd at 27.1. Last year Allan Houston averaged 22.5 ppg. This year that would be good enough for 8th in the league. Last year it wasn't even top 10. There are only 16 players in the league averaging at least 20.0 ppg.

1. Iverson 27.5 ppg
2. McGrady 27.1 ppg
3. Stojakovic 25.1 ppg
4. Garnett 24.7 ppg
5. Pierce 23.2 ppg
6. Duncan 23.0 ppg
7. Davis 22.9 ppg
8. Redd 22.0 ppg
9. Randolph 21.4 ppg
10. Nowitzki 21.3 ppg
11. Cassell 21.0 ppg
11. Carter 21.0 ppg
13. James 20.6 ppg
14. J O'Neal 20.3 ppg
15. Abdur-Rahim 20.0 ppg
15. Marbury 20.0 ppg (20.8 with PHX, only 18.3 with NY)

Why? Better defenses, notably the zones that McGrady was whining about early in the year. Teams with one offensive player are struggling. Chicago has only one offensive player. Toronto was playing horrible early in the year, when the only scorer they had was Vince Carter. They were averaging 77 ppg. The Magic and Sixers are both playing worse. Paul Pierce has had a very tough time being the main man in Boston. People were predicting he'd average 30 ppg this year. Instead he is averaging fewer points, more assists, and more turnovers, because he has to give the ball up due to zones collapsing on him. Lebron is taking all the shots in Cleveland, with the 6th worst record in the league. Of those 16 players listed, how many are even on a playoff team?

Stojakovic, SF, 34-13 (1st)
Garnett, PF, 35-14 (2nd)
Pierce, SG, 23-29 (8th)
Duncan, PF, 34-18 (3rd)
Davis, PG, 27-24 (5th)
Redd, SG, 27-23 (4th)
Nowitzki, PF, 32-18 (4th)
Cassell, PG, 35-14 (2nd)
Carter, SG, 23-25 (6th)
J O'Neal, PF, 37-14 (1st)

Marbury does not count because he put up his 20 ppg on a non-playoff team.

Notice how 10 of those 15 guys are on playoff teams.
Notice how 4 of those 10 guys are Power Forwards.
Notice how all 4 of those PFs have excellent records.
Notice how the only SG in the top 20 scorers with a winning record is Michael Redd. 

If you go to the top 30 scorers, Finley (21st), Spree (23rd), and Hamilton (27th) are other SGs on winning playoff teams. Corey Maggette, Larry Hughes, and Jason Richardson are not.

What's the point? To illustrate that teams dependant on their SG to score are no longer winning. They are getting zoned out. Finley, Spree, and Hamilton are on very successful teams and are not the main option on their team.

The exceptions would appear to be Peja Stojakovic, Michael Redd, Ray Allen, and Allan Houston.

Why? Because they are zone killers.

What's my point? Crawford and Francis are both getting zoned. Van Gundy isn't reigning Francis anywhere, Francis is scoring less because he's shooting the ball like crap, because he's getting zoned. Francis has Yao to dump the ball to, Crawford does not. Crawford doesn't even have a Cuttino Mobley to take the pressure off of him. So how exactly do you propose Crawford score more, when the defense is going to focus completely on him every single game? Even Ricky Davis had Zydrunas Ilgauskas to take the pressure off him last year. Well?

Francis shoots .417 in wins and .375 in losses.
Francis scores 16.9 ppg in wins and 16.6 ppg in losses.

Crawford shoots .482 in wins and .352 in losses.
Crawford scores 20.0 ppg in wins and 15.9 ppg in losses.

Care to explain the huge disparity in Crawford's numbers without referring to what I wrote above?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

rashidi,i am going to print this one out and take it to work with me and then respond in detail

I think the main knock against Crawford is that he is very erratic and perhaps immature


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I think the main knock against Crawford is that he is very erratic and perhaps immature


Isn't that the main knock against Francis as well?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

i think the main knock against francis is he is a shoot first point guard,who doesnt see eye to eye with his coach and refuses to make Yao the focal point of the offense...


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Wow, you're INSANE. In a good way, of course.

Rashidi = Danny Ainge. Not the best, but pretty good and pesky as all heck.

You've got a lot of theories going on in here, some which seem rather tangential to me. But let's take a look.

First off let me state a couple of things. I like Crawford and someday he might be better than Francis -- who knows. And someday either might be better than Isiah -- I just don't think so.

And I don't want to talk about money. I'm sure Crawford is better on a per-penny-spent basis (but if he becomes as good as you think he will eventually commmand Francis-like money. Francis isn't being overpaid relative to the league.) And I know you could probably make a statistical presentation to prove that a trio of Ward+Eisley+Rick Brunson are better than Marbury on a per-penny-basis, but who cares, we tried that approach and know what it yields.




> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Trade Francis for Crawford and the Rockets are still a playoff team, and the Bulls are still a lottery team.


Probably, though I think Francis' intensity might give a lift to the bulls that is immeasurable. Curry and Chandler might be performing better if the team had more confidence in itself and fire in its pants.




> Eddy Curry: 27.8 mpg
> Kirk Hinrich: 34.3 mpg
> Kendall Gill: 26.3 mpg
> Tyson Chandler: 24.9 mpg (ony 14 games)
> ...


So what? I don't find that particularly relevant, So no one on Chicago is as worthy of going to routinely as Mobly and Yao. If you were proving Crawford were getting to put up less shots than Francis that would be one thing, but he puts up MORE.

Shots this season:

Francis
718 FG
161 3pt
---------
879 Total
in 1949 minutes of play

Crawford
794
301
---------
1095 Total
in 1707 minutes of play

Isn't it a well known fact that it's easier to be a dominant scorer being the first option on a bad team than on a good team because you get to hog the ball more and put up more attempts? I really think your argument works against you.




> Also, scoring is down across the board in the league. Last year the scoring leader was McGrady at 32 ppg. Kobe was 2nd at 30. Iverson right now is 1st with 27.5, McGrady 2nd at 27.1. Last year Allan Houston averaged 22.5 ppg. This year that would be good enough for 8th in the league. Last year it wasn't even top 10. There are only 16 players in the league averaging at least 20.0 ppg.
> 
> 1. Iverson 27.5 ppg
> 2. McGrady 27.1 ppg
> ...


That's all interesting, but it's another "so what?" The zone was in effect last year too, when Francis scored 21ppg.

It's a known fact that Van Gundy is trying to shape Francis' game, and the team offense, into more of a Yao first system, so why would you try to suggest Francis' lower production is due to the zone -- the same zone that allowed him 21 last year? That's quite a reach on your part.

Also, look at the big picture of the guys on that list. Most of them are good penetrators or have a good inside presence. I believe Francis is larger, stronger and more agressive than Crawford. he's also the better leaper, ballhandler and penetrator. Those assets are what give him an edge over Crawford.



> Stojakovic, SF, 34-13 (1st)
> Garnett, PF, 35-14 (2nd)
> Pierce, SG, 23-29 (8th)
> Duncan, PF, 34-18 (3rd)
> ...


What your two lists above prove is that a guard can score with the best of them if he can penetrate and shoot (Francis is the better penetrator). 

And that a powerful, high scoring big-man is more valuable to a team than a high scoring little-man. I think we knew that. Or am I missing something?



> What's the point? To illustrate that teams dependant on their SG to score are no longer winning. They are getting zoned out. Finley, Spree, and Hamilton are on very successful teams and are not the main option on their team.
> 
> The exceptions would appear to be Peja Stojakovic, Michael Redd, Ray Allen, and Allan Houston.
> 
> Why? Because they are zone killers.


I don't know what relevance you are trying to put on the notion that "teams dependant on their SG to score are no longer winning." What is the relevanc to this discussion? Both Francis and Crawford are guys who can play either guard position, so whatever your point is it apllies equally to both.



> What's my point? Crawford and Francis are both getting zoned. Van Gundy isn't reigning Francis anywhere, Francis is scoring less because he's shooting the ball like crap, because he's getting zoned. Francis has Yao to dump the ball to, Crawford does not. Crawford doesn't even have a Cuttino Mobley to take the pressure off of him. So how exactly do you propose Crawford score more, when the defense is going to focus completely on him every single game? Even Ricky Davis had Zydrunas Ilgauskas to take the pressure off him last year. Well?


Again, I disagree with your assertion that Van Gundy's approach is having no effect on Francis' game. Sincerely, I'm surprise a man of your smarts believes that. Just how would you describe what you think JVG is doing out there? He wants the ball in Francis' hands less, and less shot attempts from him. He wants Yao to be the center of the offense (as has been the history of the league for teams with dominant centers) and he wants Francis to be more of playmaker and less of a scorer. More of a Stockton and less of a Baron Davis. Do you disagree??? This is all new for him, he's finding it confusing, it's creating friction between he and the coach, and it's affecting his shooting percentage and total shots.

And I'm not sure I understand the rest of the point, it seems redundant to what you said above so I'll give my same reply again:

So no one on Chicago is as worthy of going to routinely as Mobly and Yao. Big deal. If you were proving Crawford were getting to put up less shots than Francis that would be one thing, but he actually puts up more.



> Francis shoots .417 in wins and .375 in losses.
> Francis scores 16.9 ppg in wins and 16.6 ppg in losses.
> 
> Crawford shoots .482 in wins and .352 in losses.
> ...


I'm not sure I follow your assertion and request. One thing I see is that both teams lose when their guy has an off shooting night, but Francis' point production is more steady. That's because he's a better penetrator and can score layups when his shooting touch is off, Crawford can't. Also that Chicago is more dependant on scoring from Crawford than Houston is from Francis, as I've said.

Does that answer your question in the proscribed manner?

I really don't know I've gotten the essence of all your assertions, but here's what I think. Francis is stronger, more robust, a better leaper, a better ball handler and more aggressive. And can get to the hoop with more regularity. Not to mention he's been healthier. He's also a better rebounder and defender. Thus Francis is an all round better player, and closer to being a triple-double threat than Crawford.

But Crawford is good too and fun to watch. At the moment I think Francis is the stronger all round player and probably will be in the near forseable future. If you feel otherwise that's fine.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> i think the main knock against francis is he is a shoot first point guard,who doesnt see eye to eye with his coach and refuses to make Yao the focal point of the offense...


And if Crawford had a Yao, he'd likely have the same problem.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Bad assumption.....How do you know this???
And i thought you were taking Crawfords side in this debate..

And you are missing the real issue...Its not if Craford had Yao,its if Crawfird had van Gundy..Thats the real issue...

Look at Mr out of control himself,White chocolate Jayson Williams...Hubie brown has made him a better ,more controlled PG,not Lorenzo Wright..It aint the player,its the coach


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> It aint the player,its the coach


Tim Floyd, Bill Berry, Bill Cartwright, Pete Myers.

Rudy Tomjanovich, Jeff Van Gundy.

Hmm.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

you forced me to say it

USE YOUR NOODLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you are arguing with yourself you knuclehead!!!!!!!!!!!!

you said
And if Crawford had a Yao, he'd likely have the same problem 

and i tried to tell you that with the proper coach he might not have the problem

and you come back with
Tim Floyd, Bill Berry, Bill Cartwright, Pete Myers. 

which is exactly my point!!!!

we arent talking about francis,REMEMBER???You made a statement about crawford and i think you agree with me

DUDE,try and remeber what you posted 2 minutes ago..you are so argumentative,you will even argue with yourself...$#%% wierd


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