# Future of Elton Brand...



## AZNoob (Jan 21, 2006)

It basically boils down to this: Would you guys spend a ton of money signing Brand back, or let Brand opt out, and rebuild for the future?

Brand at this point in time is like Garnett last year, in Minny. Same situation, with a team going nowhere (no offense, Clips fans) but a star player who can be versatile. 

Personally, I would let Brand opt out, so I could rebuild for the future. Obviously, you guys have a good SF/PF in Thornton (nice pick!) so he could be the new Brand. Also, you guys could sign and trade Brand. You wouldn't get equal value back, but you won't get ripped either (see Memphis org.)

You guys would have a high pick too (1-7 picks)so you could pick up a PG, etc. 

The problem is, what if Brand on team X ends up like Garnett on the Celts? Minny fans are probably loving Al Jefferson, but have a sour taste in their mouths about the Celts.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

Or Brand could be the Paul Pierce of Last year, and we sign Gilbert Arenas and trade for Michael Redd while grabbing Ron Artest.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

yup, we have to hope he opts out so that either we can A. go after a real superstar, and/or B. hope that no one can afford him, thus we get to sign him on the cheap, or C. sign/trade him for something decent.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> yup, we have to hope he opts out so that either we can A. go after a real superstar, and/or B. hope that no one can afford him, thus we get to sign him on the cheap, or C. sign/trade him for something decent.


All three of those options sound good to me. Please don't give him a max deal or let him walk for nothing.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

I just want to see him in a Clippers uniform next season.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

I want him to take a pay cut so we can go after Arenas. Sign and trade for Michael Redd, go after Ron Artest. Who cares if we have an angry team, so long as we win for the short term.


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## DaFranchise (Jun 29, 2005)

I want EB back!


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## sertorius (Sep 24, 2005)

I really don't understand why there are so many Clippers' fans who are so down on Elton Brand. Trade him or not sign him to go after "a real superstar"? Like who? Who are these superstars that are so readily available? And with the exception of maybe Lebron James (who carries an entire team on his back) how often do they manage to achieve anything on their own? The great Kevin Garnett was not able to do anything with a faltering T-Wolves team? Allen Iverson couldn't drag the Sixers into the playoffs even in the awful East? Yet somehow not having Brand will make us more attractive to top-tier free agents, and superstars at that? Sorry, if the plan is to let Brand walk so he may pursue a title elsewhere, so be it, but this conceit that this is a move towards "the future" is nonsense. The future is now, and I'd rather we protect and solidify the position of the team's best asset, and pursue complimentary pieces.


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## MicCheck12 (Aug 12, 2005)

Good Post


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> I really don't understand why there are so many Clippers' fans who are so down on Elton Brand. Trade him or not sign him to go after "a real superstar"? Like who?


I dont know of anyone on here in this thread nor on this board who is "down" on elton brand. Saying that we shouldnt pay brand max money is not being down on him. Hes not a max player by any stretch of the imagination. And by "real superstar" were talking about at least someone who is a bonified all star, particularly a wing player that dunleavvy and baylor and sterling have always desired. Arenas comes to mind. Redd has been rumored to be unhappy. who knows what other guys will be on the block. Look at all the movement of superstars just in the last 8 months. allen, garnett, kidd, iverson, gasol, etc. etc. Even if theres no one available, which i highly doubt. we dont want to cap ourselves out with a situation that we know will not bring us anywhere close to a championship.



> great Kevin Garnett was not able to do anything with a faltering T-Wolves team? Allen Iverson couldn't drag the Sixers into the playoffs even in the awful East?



You sure youre not aruging our side? This is the point. You dont keep going along with what has proven is a dead end path. YOu try something new. And you cant pursue complimentary pieces when you have no tradeable assets, and no cap room. It was possible when livingston was hot, but we already blew it on that front....we could have had players the likes of iverson, pierce, etc. 

Bottom line is, giving brand a max deal caps us out, and guarantees no playoffs for us pretty much, as with the brand/kaman/mobley/thomas contracts, it guarantees us that we could never get even the talent level we had in 05/06, which probalby in todays NBA west would not even get us the 9th seed in the conference.

I much prefer to pay brand what hes worth and have room to manuver....or trade brand for a new start, or last case scenario just go ahead and lose him for nothing...at least we would have HOPE of something happening since we have cap space. 

Even IF we get derrick rose, and beat the odds, im not 100% convinced hes the next chris paul yet. If he turned out to be chris paul, then yeah, screw it..go ahead and overpay brand. A brand/kaman/Chris paul talent would be enough to do some ethings, if a chrispaul/david west/tyson chandler group can do what they have done.


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

I think it depends on what pick we get this year! If we have a chance to get Derrick Rose I'd say keep Brand! Trade Maggette for Michael Redd and you would have a starting lineup of Rose, Redd, Thronton, Brand, and Kaman! Defintely one of the top teams next year!


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

I think the best thing for both the Clippers and for Eb to do is have him opt out and then resign for like 3 year 33 million(This season he basically got paid 15 million to play 8 or 9 games, so he could feel bad about that and resign for less than the max) 

This way the Clippers get a little cap room(if Maggette isn't re-signed) to help get some pieces around him and they aren't committed to EB for 6 yrs and EB gets to stick around for a few more seasons and see if the Clippers can get it right, and if not, he can be traded in the last year of the deal or leave that summer to a contender.


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## sertorius (Sep 24, 2005)

How is it not being down on Brand to continuously express the need to trade him for "a superstar" or dismiss him as trade bait? You in particular seem to have driven this argument, going so far as unfavorably compare Brand to Gasol (of all people) because he lacks a "killer instinct" or a presumed "superstar mentality." In all truth, none of those things matter if you don't have the horses to get you to the point where that ultimately takes effect. To be completely honest, I don't believe Brand is a superstar, however he can play like one; and I don't know if he should command a max salary or not, however I do know that to speak as dismissively of him as you do is foolish. At the end of the day the key question should be: are the Clippers a better team with or without him? The answer should be obvious, and the issue then becomes, what needs must be fulfilled in order for the team to reach a Championship? 

To your point, a great wing player matters, yet look at all the teams in recent history who have had one, and their achievements (or lack thereof). The lakers, presumably having the best wing player in the league, remained unable to move out of the first round for the past two years, and Denver with not one but two excellent wing players barely made the playoffs this year. A good team has to be started from the inside out, and personally I believe that with Brand and Kaman, and the development of Thorton a solid nucleus will now be in place. 

Finally, your assertion that I am making your point by pointing out Minessota's futility is at best naive. If anything that argument points out that "a superstar" does not mean as much as you think it does. And by the way, I do agree with you that someone like Arenas could be a major addition to this team, however not by himself (as proven by all the Wizards have achieved this year without him).


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

yamaneko said:


> I dont know of anyone on here in this thread nor on this board who is "down" on elton brand. Saying that we shouldnt pay brand max money is not being down on him. Hes not a max player by any stretch of the imagination. And by "real superstar" were talking about at least someone who is a bonified all star, particularly a wing player that dunleavvy and baylor and sterling have always desired. Arenas comes to mind. Redd has been rumored to be unhappy. who knows what other guys will be on the block. Look at all the movement of superstars just in the last 8 months. allen, garnett, kidd, iverson, gasol, etc. etc. Even if theres no one available, which i highly doubt. we dont want to cap ourselves out with a situation that we know will not bring us anywhere close to a championship.


I'm sorry, but did you just say a 20/10/2 50% fg, 2 block, elite 2-way powerforward in the league isn't worth the max, but Michael Redd and 23/4/3 on 44% fg and not an elite 2-way wing in the league, is worth 16 mil? And did you call Mike Redd a "real superstar"? Am I missing something here?


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

sertorius said:


> I really don't understand why there are so many Clippers' fans who are so down on Elton Brand. Trade him or not sign him to go after "a real superstar"? Like who? Who are these superstars that are so readily available? And with the exception of maybe Lebron James (who carries an entire team on his back) how often do they manage to achieve anything on their own? The great Kevin Garnett was not able to do anything with a faltering T-Wolves team? Allen Iverson couldn't drag the Sixers into the playoffs even in the awful East? Yet somehow not having Brand will make us more attractive to top-tier free agents, and superstars at that? Sorry, if the plan is to let Brand walk so he may pursue a title elsewhere, so be it, but this conceit that this is a move towards "the future" is nonsense. The future is now, and I'd rather we protect and solidify the position of the team's best asset, and pursue complimentary pieces.


Brand is not on the level of Garnett or Iverson. Garnett got his team into the playoffs something like 8 times in a row, got an MVP and made it to conference finals... before losing to a hall of famer Laker squad. Iverson has been a perenniel playoff superstar always dragging 4 deadbeats much farther than they ever deserved to go, he also won an MVP and made it to the Finals... both guys have been all stars every single year also.

Brand's major achievements: 1 playoff appearance, 2 all star appearances (1 as an injured reserve)... that's it! nothing else.

Make no mistake, he is a very very good basketball player who will improve team in the NBA, but he has never been the go-to-guy who can carry a team all by himself... the Sam Cassell year proved this. Its unfortunate, and we all love Brand (every single one of us probably wants his # retired here), but its just the truth we gotta deal with. If we want to win anything, we need to move on or Brand has to take a big paycut (12M per year max), because with him as the centerpiece, we wouldn't even make the playoffs this year.

Many teams have pulled the trigger on big trades over the past couple of years, because the "stay the course" method does not work unless your team is very young... and we are old.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

qross1fan said:


> I'm sorry, but did you just say a 20/10/2 50% fg, 2 block, elite 2-way powerforward in the league isn't worth the max, but Michael Redd and 23/4/3 on 44% fg and not an elite 2-way wing in the league, is worth 16 mil? And did you call Mike Redd a "real superstar"? Am I missing something here?


Is Jermaine O'Neal worth max money? He'd be a perfect replacement for Brand... but **** no to him too!

Brand isn't worth the max to the clippers, signing him for max money guarantees the same outcome we've had every other year without Sam Cassell: *close, but no playoffs & bad lottery picks.* We've already screwed ourselves with Mobley, Kaman, Thomas & Livingston for 2008-09, which combined equals 30.4M, add Brand & we're at 46.8M... add Knight's 2M & Thornton's 1.8M and we've got.... *$5 million to fill out 7 roster spots!!!*

Do you really expect Kaman, Brand, Thornton (who equals maggette output-wise), Mobley & Livingston to accomplish anything?? I don't, not without a miracle draft pick.... who we can't afford to keep!

As for Redd being a superstar... yeah right, i'm with you 100% here. Arenas is a real superstar, Redd is not.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

I don't care of Redd is a Superstar or not, the fact is we need a shooter and Redd is a shooter. I think we have to sign and trade Maggete plus a pick to get Redd, Maggete and thomas, or something because Redd is unhappy. We need someone to persuade him to force a trade to get to the Clippers, then lure Arenas over here, get Brand to take a paycut, then go after Rose, and bring over Sofo.

I think we can win the Championship in 3 years if we did that... granted the payroll will be close to 80 million.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Free Arsenal said:


> I don't care of Redd is a Superstar or not, the fact is we need a shooter and Redd is a shooter. I think we have to sign and trade Maggete plus a pick to get Redd, Maggete and thomas, or something because Redd is unhappy. We need someone to persuade him to force a trade to get to the Clippers, then lure Arenas over here, get Brand to take a paycut, then go after Rose, and bring over Sofo.
> 
> I think we can win the Championship in 3 years if we did that... granted the payroll will be close to 80 million.


Yeah that is a championship team, but the chances of all that working out are really slim, especially the 80 million dollar payroll part....


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

What about Baron Davis? A package of Livingston/Maggette/Filler/Picks?

Davis
Mobley
Ross
Brand
Kama

Thornton as PF 6th man or starting SF.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Ruff Draft said:


> What about Baron Davis? A package of Livingston/Maggette/Filler/Picks?
> 
> Davis
> Mobley
> ...


Absolutely, the bearded one seems to have gotten over his back problems as he played 82 games this season. And he's exactly the kind of guy who can take over a game and win it by himself. If we could get away with trading a Future 1st, Minny's perpetually useless 1st round pick, or a couple 2nd rounders I'd be all for this trade in a heartbeat.

If signing Arenas is option #1 for us, trading for Baron should be option #1A, that's the only way we can avoid rebuilding completely.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

You know, there are only two ways to build a championship contending team.

1) Trade for it, as was the case of the Celtics
2) Sign a major free agent, as was the case for the Suns
3) Draft it, as was the case for the Spurs

Most other teams however do a combination of the 3. So here's a good proposal.

1) Trade the Minnesota Pick, plus Maggette (Sign and Trade) and Livingston (with Qualifying offer) to the Bucks for Michael Redd.
2) Sign Arenas.
3) Draft Rose or Beasley.

Like something like this'll ever happen.


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

Free, how do you plan the Clippers having enough money to sign Areans after taking back Reed's contract?


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> I'm sorry, but did you just say a 20/10/2 50% fg, 2 block, elite 2-way powerforward in the league isn't worth the max, but Michael Redd and 23/4/3 on 44% fg and not an elite 2-way wing in the league, is worth 16 mil? And did you call Mike Redd a "real superstar"? Am I missing something here?


Um, are you really debating such an obvious thing? No way is brand worth sniffing max. at least for this team. Especially when max means a deal starting at 18 million and averaging over 20 for the life of the deal. Brand does not have special skills that make him unique, that allow him to take over a game at will. Brand is not an elite scorer on his own, hes a great, but not spectacular rebounder when were discussing true superstar PF's. He hasnt won anywhere despite having pretty decent talent. I give max money to max players. At his position, notably: Amare, Duncan, Garnett, Jermaine Oneal (when he was at his best), Dirk, and probably gasol for the intangibles he brings. 

Brand is one of the top forward in the league, but just not worth the max. Theres no superstar who has never hit a game winning shot for his team in his entire tenure with that team. 

Michael redd on the other hand's max deal isnt as much as brand, and he plays a position of dire need for the clippers...in an offense where it requires the guard to be the clutch player. Michael redd IS a superstar. Hes a superstar due to the numbers he puts up, but more so because with ray allen's decline he just might be the best pure shooting Guard in the ENTIRE WORLD. If that doesnt make you a superstar, then i dont know what does. 

Brand is a great player, but we will go no where with him taking up our salary cap.

Redd might not be the answer, heck, kobe bryant might not even get it done. But just because we dont know if redd or arenas would get it done, that doesnt mean we need to just lock up someone who we ALREADY know cant get it done....

a few years ago the clippers made a similar decision, and it was the correct one. Match the Q Richardson offersheet, thus capping them out, not allowing them to go after kobe? Or let him go so at least they had an OPPORTUNITY to get a superstar. They chose the right thing, even though it didnt work as planned. If we had Q taking up our salary cap, we would have been as bad or even worse as we were.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

PAIDNFULL23 said:


> Free, how do you plan the Clippers having enough money to sign Areans after taking back Reed's contract?


Go over the Salary Cap.


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

Free Arsenal said:


> Go over the Salary Cap.


the clippers have to have to have at least like 15 mil for Areanas to even consider signing here, which they wouldn't have if the trade for Reed's massive contract and resign EB for anything cost to what he's making now. Areanas OR Reed is a possiblity but not both if EB is still here.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

sertorius said:


> I really don't understand why there are so many Clippers' fans who are so down on Elton Brand. Trade him or not sign him to go after "a real superstar"? Like who? Who are these superstars that are so readily available? And with the exception of maybe Lebron James (who carries an entire team on his back) how often do they manage to achieve anything on their own? The great Kevin Garnett was not able to do anything with a faltering T-Wolves team? Allen Iverson couldn't drag the Sixers into the playoffs even in the awful East? Yet somehow not having Brand will make us more attractive to top-tier free agents, and superstars at that? Sorry, if the plan is to let Brand walk so he may pursue a title elsewhere, so be it, but this conceit that this is a move towards "the future" is nonsense. The future is now, and I'd rather we protect and solidify the position of the team's best asset, and pursue complimentary pieces.


Very, very well said. Most of us in this forum are huge EB fans and supporters, with the exception of a few who think this team would be better off with someone like Gilbert Arenas instead. Personally, I can't understand that logic. Why would you want to see the backbone of your team leave? This is the guy who had the Clippers one Raja Bell three pointer away from the WCF! And no, Sam Cassell was not the driving force behind that playoff run (I know that's coming, it always does). Brand is a franchise player worthy of a max deal, and I am very confident that the franchise knows this and will do whatever they can to keep him. Some of you say let him walk and sign Michael Redd or Ron Artest? Hmm, seems to me the Bucks and Kings are also in the lottery this year. You can't build a team from the backcourt fellas, you have to have a strong frontline if you have any chance of competing, especially in the West.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> Um, are you really debating such an obvious thing? No way is brand worth sniffing max. at least for this team. Especially when max means a deal starting at 18 million and averaging over 20 for the life of the deal. Brand does not have special skills that make him unique, that allow him to take over a game at will. Brand is not an elite scorer on his own, hes a great, but not spectacular rebounder when were discussing true superstar PF's. He hasnt won anywhere despite having pretty decent talent. I give max money to max players. At his position, notably: Amare, Duncan, Garnett, Jermaine Oneal (when he was at his best), Dirk, and probably gasol for the intangibles he brings.
> 
> Brand is one of the top forward in the league, but just not worth the max. Theres no superstar who has never hit a game winning shot for his team in his entire tenure with that team.
> 
> ...


Sorry yama, your argument is straight-up weak man. I just came back to the site today after more than a month and this is the first thread I came to because I knew you would be running your "Brand is not worth nearly that much" smack. Michael Redd is a superstar? Elton Brand is not among the elite PF's? Damn, you're way the hell out there now.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> with the exception of a few who think this team would be better off with someone like Gilbert Arenas instead. Personally, I can't understand that logic.


How can you not understand one of the simplest logics of all time? 
1. Elton Brand is not worth the max money, plain and simple. There is no logic that can say that he is on the level of a Dirk/Duncan/Garnett, etc. and deserves their money. Not statiscially, not skill level wise, not clutch player ability, etc. Granted, we see players overpaid ALL THE TIME in the league, but that doesnt make it LOGICAL.

2. No one here (at least not me) is GUARANTEEING we would be better with Gilbert Arenas. However, we can LOGICALLY guarantee that WITH elton capping us out, we will never sniff any kind of championship, possibly not even the playoffs. 2 years was our best year in a while, much in thanks to Sam Cassell. However, even IF we get the top pick in the draft this year, which is what, 7%, its very difficult to envision us fielding a team as good as that 05./06 team. And im not sure anyone here will argue that that 05/06 team could have even made it to the playoffs this year. 

So on one hand you have the option of paying max money to a non max player, capping you out, and thus guaranteeing continued mediocrity, as well as meaning you are getting less return on investment on kaman. On the other hand, you have the option of giving max money to a DIFFERENT player, a guy who is truly an elite scorer, and the end of game guy the clippers need. Will it for sure work out? no, but theres a much better chance that does than resigning brand for 20 million per.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> This is the guy who had the Clippers one Raja Bell three pointer away from the WCF! And no, Sam Cassell was not the driving force behind that playoff run (I know that's coming, it always does). Brand is a franchise player worthy of a max deal,


Oh brother. History speaks for itself. Brand went on a diet, got to be a little quicker, and then sam came along and really put him over the level. Then the next year sams not around much, and brand is back to the guy he was the rest of his 8 year career. Doesnt take a genius to deduce that sam had a huge role in brand's and the team's success that year. And yet again, were talking 05/06....were in the new and more difficult west. That 05/06 team would not have made the playoffs this year, even if we give them all the wins they had against the teams in the west that are much better this year...even WITH that, they wouldnt have made the playoffs. 

Explain how Brand is worthy of a max deal? What has he done in his career to warrant that? Has he ever made a game winning shot? Has he shown talent that few in the world have? Has he succeeded even when he has had decent talent around him? He is what he is, which is statistically one of the best clippers in years. But that doesnt make someone worthy of a max deal. To pay someone the max, means this guy is as good as garnett. As good as dirk. As good as duncan. As good as an amare (pre injury). And the bottom line is, he isnt. Just because you are the best player, a "franchise" player, on your team, doesnt mean you should get max money. Jason Richardson might be the best player on charlotte, should he get a max deal? What about Al Jefferson in Minnesota? Hes arguably almost as good as brand already, and 6 years younger...i wouldnt give him a max deal even with that information, would you?



> Michael Redd is a superstar? Elton Brand is not among the elite PF's?


Like i said, redd is quite possibly the best pure shooter in the world at this time. If that doesnt make you a star, or even superstar, then we have different definitions of the word. The guy is clutch, can shoot better than anyone, can score in bundles, and plays a position of need for us. Not sure what there is to argue. 

Brand is one of the best PF's, i have always said. Just not on the same level as THE best ones. Guys of the last few years id give max money to before brand:

1. Dirk
2. Duncan
3. Garnett
4. Amare
5. D Howard

Borderline/around same level

6. Bosh
7. Gasol

Maybe you are the kind who is find with giving max money for someone who is only top 10 for their position in the nba. Not me. For me, max guys should be at MOST top 15-20 in the entire league, IF that. And like top 3-4 at their position tops.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

redd is a supersrar, brand isn't....


that's laughable....


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

C'mon yama, i agree with you on the "Brand at max is bad for the clippers" but stop pushing so hard that Redd is a franchise changing superstar... he's not. Bucks suck *** in one of the worst Eastern conferences in years! At least Gilbert Arenas & Baron Davis consistently have gotten their teams into the playoffs.

It really just weakens your entire argument.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> redd is a supersrar, brand isn't....
> 
> that's laughable....


How about explaining why that is laughable? Different people might have their own definitions of superstar. I explained mine, if you are going to call it laughable, have the balls, or decency at least to give your side of the argument. If you say, a superstar is just the best player on the team, then thats fine, in your mind brand is a superstar. In my mind, superstar means one of the top guys at your position in the league...the ability to do things that few people in the world can do. 

Redd like i said is arguably the best pure shooter in the world, now that Allen is declining. A top 10 scorer each year, including 27 a game just a couple years ago. He would change any franchise for the better, (unless you replace a superior player to get him) so not sure how he is not a franchise changing player. In our case, he would change us for the better as he fits into what we need better than elton brand. If after 5 years of watching dunleavvy's offense, you do not realize the importance that he places on 3 point shooting guards, and guards who can handle the ball, then im not sure what clipper team you are watching. 

You look at the talent that the bucks have had, or lack thereof, and its pathetic. 2 years ago, two of their top 3 scorers after redd was a clipper reject (ruben patterson), and charlie bell for goodness sakes. Before this year, kobe bryant has had much more talent on his squad, and he wasnt able to carry the lakers to anything spectacular. Cant compare that team to the talent clippers have had either. 

Anyway, like i said, is redd a universally undisputed superstar, thel ikes of a Tmac, Arenas, or Kobe? No. But my criteria for Superstar is 1. Game ending heroics...can he take and hit a game winning shot? Redd..check. 2. Is he top 3-4 at his position in the league? Redd...check. 3. Does he have unique ability that sets himself apart from almost anyone in the world....check. 4. Does he have stats to back it up?...check. 

Honestly, im not sure what kind of criteria you can use for brand as a superstar on the level of the garnetts, and others. About the only thing i think of is what i had said...if you perhaps consider the best player on each team a "superstar" and possibly throw in there their humanitarian efforts off the court, and their sportsmanships. Other than that, i dont see how we can consider brand a max player.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> Anyway, like i said, is redd a universally undisputed superstar, thel ikes of a Tmac, Arenas, or Kobe? No. But my criteria for Superstar is....


OK, so we can all agree that yamaneko's "superstar" is different from the universal "superstar" that the rest of us agree upon. So that this thread can stop being sidetracked, let's all simply use the following terminology:

Superstars that at least 95% of the population on BBF can agree upon will be called: *Superstar.*

Players that yamaneko places special criteria on to be called superstars: *Yamastar.*

Superstars:
Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
Gilbert Arenas
Amare Stoudamire
Tim Duncan

Yamastars: 
Michael Redd
Steve Francis
Yuta Tabuse


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

leidout said:


> Yamastars:
> Michael Redd
> Steve Francis
> Yuta Tabuse


Lol, I gotta laugh at this. Especially since the Yuta Tabuse bit is true.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

No, its not true, i have not said that francis and tabuse are superstars, do not put words in my mouth, and try to grow up. Francis for sure has put up near superstar numbers before in his career, but he is not a superstar. All i have ever said about tabuse is we should have gotten him over overton, something that NO ONE EVER on this board has ever denied, so why you keep trying to bring up nonsense is beyond me.

I still have yet to see anyone challenge my superstar logic of michael redd. So if youre not going to analyze that, then how about not even trying to attack a viewpoint that you cannot back up your argument on.

Back to the topic at hand. We desperately need a superstar guard or wing player. What would be amazing is if we do get the number 1 pick, we get Beaseley, and then trade brand for such a player that fits into our offense, such as a Redd, Arenas, or whoever is on the block. Perhaps even monta ellis if the warriors decide that they want to just invest in davis, and not have 100 million tied up in almost the same position. Ellis might not be a star yet, but he has arenas like potential, and could flourish alongside a healthy livingston. 

Outside of arenas and redd, im not aware of any other elite guards who are rumored to be on the block or potential free agents.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

don't forget to delete any posts that question yamaneko's logic here & lock this thread too.

seriously though, how many times does this same scenario have to repeat itself before yamaneko is removed as a mod?

deleting posts because people are calling you on all the past nonsense you've said is now against the rules too? utter bull****.

i like the vast majority of you guys (heck i even like yamaneko too most of the time), but this brings down the quality of the forum when we're not allowed to argue too much with one particular person. i'm about ready to go, someone please PM me with a better forum.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

leidout said:


> don't forget to delete any posts that question yamaneko's logic here & lock this thread too.
> 
> seriously though, how many times does this same scenario have to repeat itself before yamaneko is removed as a mod?
> 
> ...


same for me....


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

leidout said:


> don't forget to delete any posts that question yamaneko's logic here & lock this thread too.
> 
> seriously though, how many times does this same scenario have to repeat itself before yamaneko is removed as a mod?
> 
> ...


I sort of agree.
It's not as we're flaming, we're attacking the idea that Brand < Redd by using sarcasm.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Ill post it once again, and once only. You guys are so off base its beyond laughable. It is the OPPOSITE. I do not delete nor moderate posts that "differ" with my opinion. As a matter of fact I on multiple occasions INVITE people to explain their ideas, especially when it is differing. HOWEVER, what WILL be deleted by myself, by qross, by weasel, is the things that go against the board rules. the board rules are clear, its been brought up a million times, stop breaking them. If you feel the need to break board rules, by all means find another board that will allow you to do that. You will be hard pressed to.

The ONLY mistake i made, was actually allowing the nonsense to go as far as it did before starting to delete. And i apologize for that, but this is exactly what i did not want to happen, people making bogus claims of excessive moderating, when all I ever have done when using any moderator abilities, is to enforce the rules of the board. 

Heck, half of the time people claim that I delete posts, it was not even me, but rather another moderator doing his/her job. 

If you do not want to debate a topic, then dont do it. Simple as that. This board is not here for people to make childlike baiting nor attacks. Here are the facts for one last time.

1. The tabuse subject is a moot subject, and the only reason anyone brings it up is to try to attack myself. The only ever stance i took before on him stemmed from the fact that it was absolutely ridiculous to choose doug overton over him. I was correct, and not one person has EVER disputed that fact, even though i have given the opportunity. There is no need to mention tabuse and myself if you are talking about other things, its just meant as an attack, and thats against the board rules. 

2. Steve francis people are bringing up, again, no one disputed the things i said about him before which had to do with statistical facts. Do not slander another poster and claim that i said things like francis is currently a superstar, etc....again, the point of that is to bait and/or attack. 

3. Michael redd being a star... Again, no one has disputed the criteria that i used to call him a star (being the best pure shooter in the world, being top 3 pure SG, being the best player on the bucks, etc.). So why bring things up ? About the only half way decent post someone has made about him was someone, i forgot who, discussing how they thought he would/would not fit into the clipper offense. I did not agree with what he said, but posts like that are 100% fine as it is a mature discussion about a valid topic, free from personal attacks. Youll never see any posts like that deleted, no matter how much I or anyone might disagree.

Someone mentioned when i will be removed as a mod. The answer is NEVER as long as I continue to go by the rules which is what i always have done. I have never once done anything outside the perview of what a moderator should/shouldnt do. And unless I do, I will not be removed. 

Anyway. End of story, once, and once only, case is closed, there should be no more question as to what should/should not be discussed or deleted. Its simple. Stay away from baiting and attacks, stick to debating basketball or other things here.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> Ill post it once again, and once only. You guys are so off base its beyond laughable. It is the OPPOSITE. I do not delete nor moderate posts that "differ" with my opinion. As a matter of fact I on multiple occasions INVITE people to explain their ideas, especially when it is differing. HOWEVER, what WILL be deleted by myself, by qross, by weasel, is the things that go against the board rules. the board rules are clear, its been brought up a million times, stop breaking them. If you feel the need to break board rules, by all means find another board that will allow you to do that. You will be hard pressed to.
> 
> The ONLY mistake i made, was actually allowing the nonsense to go as far as it did before starting to delete. And i apologize for that, but this is exactly what i did not want to happen, people making bogus claims of excessive moderating, when all I ever have done when using any moderator abilities, is to enforce the rules of the board.
> 
> ...


1) You chose Yuta Tabuse over Overton out of blatent asian ethnocentricism. That's the problem we all have with it.

2) I never said francis was a "current" yamastar, you have placed the "potential" superstar stats (or whatever logic you're pushing) label on Francis many times in the past. The guy had a couple good seasons as a young player and been more or less garbage for years, if you wish to keep pushing that his stats are "superstar-like", then he is by definition a yamastar.

3) You are correct, when you place special criteria to qualify someone, then you are in fact creating a new definition, which i have coined as *Yamastar*. If you would like to test your viewpoint against the general forum, please do, i'm sure at least 20 people will be happy to tell you that your opinion is flat out wrong. I'm sure they will agree that your criteria of: 

---Pure shooting SG (36.2% 3-pt, 1.8 3pt made per game.... very very average)
---Top 3 SG... (No particular order of primary SGs equal or better.... Kobe, Wade, Allen, Manu, Kmart, Gordon, Johnson, Ellis, Roy, Carter, Hamilton, Tmac, Iverson, Durant)
---Best player on the Milwakee Bucks (seriously? this is important criteria in your definition of a superstar? fail.)

There, your logic is soundly beaten, either acknowledge Redd simply as a Yamastar or stop pushing your agenda. If you don't stop deleting posts which disagree with your own, this is probably going to be my last post here.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

leidout said:


> 1) You chose Yuta Tabuse over Overton out of blatent asian ethnocentricism. That's the problem we all have with it.
> 
> 2) I never said francis was a "current" yamastar, you have placed the "potential" superstar stats (or whatever logic you're pushing) label on Francis many times in the past. The guy had a couple good seasons as a young player and been more or less garbage for years, if you wish to keep pushing that his stats are "superstar-like", then he is by definition a yamastar.
> 
> ...



very well put...


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> 1) You chose Yuta Tabuse over Overton out of blatent asian ethnocentricism. That's the problem we all have with it.


I told you, this is a moot topic. Its not up to you to tell me why or why not I said to choose tabuse over overton. Its up to me. And i gave a number of reasons, namely 1. hes better than overton, 2. he fit what the team needed better (a change of pace guard i said many times), and 3. he was a proven fan favorite for the clippers, and 4. if we were going to pick up a 15th man, might as well get someone who, while sitting on the bench, would get the clippers tons of pub, press, jersey sales, etc. to the local and other japanese fan base. All of those are facts, that have never been disputed. Dont tell me that all of a sudden something that was an issue 3 years ago was an issue because of some made up idea you have. This all has been discussed before. 

2. I have no idea who said it, but someone said that according to me francis is a superstar, and thats a bold face lie. I said in the past, that he put up some superstar like numbers, inasmuch as there were about 2 or 3 guys in the history of the nba who did what he did for a couple of years , and that is just a fact again, something that cannot be disputed unless you are going to include stats from the croatian basketball league or something. I also said that i thought he was a better player than brevin knight. Yet again, something that no one refutes. So to say that i am calling francis a superstar is a lie, and again meant as an attack. If you say you didnt say that, fine. I dont remember who did, nor care to look it up. 

3. As far as your ridiculous new word, i believe already another moderator said to not use that word or else he will edit/delete your posts. Ill go ahead and let him continue with that so as not to be accused of abusing moderator priveleages...like i said, even though i only edit/delete barely my share of posts (1/3), I seem to be the only one who catches flack for it, despite it being in accordance with board guidelines. 

You say that i said that redd is a superstar because he is the best player on the bucks. i did NOT say that. Again, slander. Someone said redd is not a franchise player. I countered with how in the world can he not be considered the best player on the bucks. Bucks thought so, thus gave him that contract, and his stats prove it. No way is he not the bucks franchise player and someone else is. 

As you suggested i will go ahead and start a new thread on michael redd, and where he ranks among SG's. That actually is a valid topic. By the way, dont let the door hit you on the way out if you stop posting here, for as stupid as a reason as enforcing the board rules. Tell me once where i have edited a post simply because it was a difference in opinion, when i have only done the opposite. Tell me once where i have deleted or edited a post that was not in accordance with board rules, and ill step down as a moderator and never post on a clipper board again.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> if we were going to pick up a 15th man, might as well get someone who, while sitting on the bench, would get the clippers tons of pub, press, jersey sales, etc. to the local and other japanese fan base. All of those are facts, that have never been disputed. Dont tell me that all of a sudden something that was an issue 3 years ago was an issue because of some made up idea you have. This all has been discussed before.
> 
> 2. *I have no idea who said it, but someone said that according to me francis is a superstar*, and thats a bold face lie. *I said in the past, that he put up some superstar like* numbers, inasmuch as there were about 2 or 3 guys in the history of the nba who did what he did for a couple of years , and that is just a fact again, something that cannot be disputed unless you are going to include stats from the croatian basketball league or something. I also said that i thought he was a better player than brevin knight. Yet again, something that no one refutes. So to say that i am calling francis a superstar is a lie, and again meant as an attack. If you say you didnt say that, fine. I dont remember who did, nor care to look it up.
> 
> ...


1) Are we supposed to ignore that your name is japanese ("mountain cat" or something)? The japanese population in southern california is exceptionally small, so why pander to them if you don't have some sort of ethnocentric bias? It'd make a ton more sense to pander to the hispanic, chinese or even the armenian fanbase, which are all much bigger in size. Not one single person besides you has ever pushed a racial agenda here, why weasel didn't warn you for this is beyond me.

2) Read your own post. Superstar-like doesn't mean superstar? Read it again and try to figure out the point you're making.

3) Weasel can mod my new word all he wants, i created it and made a clear definition for it, it's not derogatory. PM me if you need the link to the original definition weasel.

As for Michael Redd, again, read your own post from yesterday! Slander my ass:



> 3. Michael redd being a star... Again, no one has disputed *the criteria that i used to call him a star* (being the best pure shooter in the world, being top 3 pure SG, *being the best player on the bucks*, etc.).


By the way, i never said you edited posts that disagreed with you. *I said you deleted them*. Its really hard for us to point out evidence that you've destroyed. Although i'd like to see the posts from the past couple of days restored, if its even possible, so i can point out exactly where you screwed up and get rid of you once & for all.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> 1) Are we supposed to ignore that your name is japanese ("mountain cat" or something)?


What does that have to do with anything? Youre seriously using that as criteria to basically call me racist? What about other moderators? If Qross our moderator said at corner back in the NFL he prefers Quinton jammer as a CB compared to an old washed up scrub, are you going to say, well that must be name discrimination because qross has always used screenames that have quinton in it (qross, qrich)? Please. 



> The japanese population in southern california is exceptionally small, so why pander to them if you don't have some sort of ethnocentric bias? It'd make a ton more sense to pander to the hispanic, chinese or even the armenian fanbase, which are all much bigger in size.


This shows how little you understand about economics and the Japanese population here. There is quite a large Japanese community here in Southern California, and almost more than any other nationality here in this country they are very fanatical about following fellow japanese in other sports. Even if we DIDNT know that tabuse was a big hit with the community from his few weeks with the suns (suns website got more hits in a few weeks than the previous months, number 2 jersey seller to kobe for a couple of weeks, etc.), you would be able to determine that he would have had a big following based on how the Japanese community reacts to any sports star who makes it big in another country. (nakamura for celtic FC in ireland, Nomo, matsui, etc. from baseball, etc.). Its just simple economics. When youre talking about paying someone a minimum deal (especially when hes cheaper than the alternative), and possibly being able to make new fans, and make money off of this guy, even though he will ride the bench a lot, then thats the decision that is logical, but as mentioned that was just one of the many reasons to pick him. Armenians are not known for their fanatiscm for following their players in professional leagues, not to mention there probably isnt an aremenian who can make an NBA roster. Mexicans neither are very interested in following their stars outside of soccer, however, I do believe that najera does have a following. But thats besides the point. Theres nothing racist about stating the fact that tabuse would have brought us more fans than overton could have. 



> Not one single person besides you has ever pushed a racial agenda here, why weasel didn't warn you for this is beyond me.


I have never pushed a racial agenda here, so why would i be warned? Only those who go against the board rules like yourself are warned. 



> Read your own post. Superstar-like doesn't mean superstar?


No, it does not. Ramon sessions put up two games of superstar like numbers. Does that make him a superstar? I guess in your imagination? If i say something, quote it, to make sure youre reflecting my thoughts. Dont put words in my mouth. Saying that someone put up superstar like numbers is NOT the same thing as saying he is a superstar. Otherwise everyone who has a great week, or a great year, or great couple games, where they put up kobe like numbers would be a superstar. 



> As for Michael Redd, again, read your own post from yesterday! Slander my ass:


It seemed like in your post you were inferring that i used that as the main criteria of calling him a star. if thats not what you meant, then ok, thank you for the clarification.



> By the way, i never said you edited posts that disagreed with you. I said you deleted them. Its really hard for us to point out evidence that you've destroyed.


Deleted, edited same thing. YOu must have one in mind to make an accusation like that, you cant say what it was? Ask any moderator to look over the deleted posts over the last year (much of the time youll find that it was actually them who deleted it anyway), and go ahead and ask them where I (or they) deleted a post that was NOT against the rules, and only because it had a different opinion. Seriously...do it. It will be a waste of time, but if it will mean you will stop making such ridiculous accusations, by all means tell weasel or qross to do such a search for you.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

yamaneko said:


> ...Mexicans neither are very interested in following their stars outside of soccer...


so mexicans don't follow any other sports besides soccer??? wow, nice to know....i never knew that....

that's not racist at all...


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

yamaneko said:


> ...Mexicans neither are very interested in following their stars outside of soccer...


so mexicans don't follow any other sports besides soccer??? wow, nice to know....i never knew that....

that's not racist at all...



Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooollllllllllll


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

I'm locking this thread...all this stuff is getting way out of hand. Yama made a point which most of us thought was not a good one, and instead of attacking the post, you guys go and attack the poster? C'mon, Boot, leid and the rest of you, you know better then that.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

sorry, q ross, just had to open it for 1 minute here, didnt want to leave me being called racist again at that. 



> so mexicans don't follow any other sports besides soccer??? wow, nice to know....i never knew that....
> 
> that's not racist at all...


Once again, mis quoted. Did i say they dont follow other sports besides soccer? I said they do not have a history of being fanatical about following their stars in other sports outside of soccer. Much of my family and friends are interested in the likes of how Geo does with Barca, how Nery did in Greece and now his new team, but they do not go crazy over the ones in the MLB for example, as it is kind of old news. Most do not know who najera is. Most would not be able to tell you if there is a mexican in the NHL. Quit calling me racist, when im just stating facts.


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