# Adam Morrison, 43 pts and win vs Michigan State !!!



## RSP83

43 pts 14-28 FG 4-8 3FG 11-12 FT 7 rebounds, 5 assits, 2 steals, and 0 Turnover !!!!!     

The Zags beat Mich. State 109 - 106. Anybody watching the game care to share what they saw? especially in Adam Morrison.


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## STUCKEY!

I watched first half. I dont really follow college bball but this kid impressed me


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## TM

he's special... he's not larry bird, but he's good


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## RSP83

I'm rooting for the Zags to reach the Final Four at least this year. The game went on to three OTs. I'm interested to know about his clutchness.


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## sheefo13

I think 0 turnovers part is great.... Guy is just amazing. I didn't see the game though.


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## STUCKEY!

So what are expections of him when he goes pro?


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## Geaux Tigers

That boy looks nothing like a basketball player but he can straight HOOP!


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## TM

RSP83 said:


> I'm interested to know about his clutchness.


Last second shot. My team's down by 2. I could pick any player in the country to take that last shot. He'd probably be 1 of 3 guys I'd take.

If you want more on him, read this thread: Most impressive players at Maui/Guardian's Classic


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## Keith Closs

he wil lnot be able to guard anyone in the pros and will give up as much as he scores..

plus thoughs midrange shots he gets off in college wil lget blocked in the pros..

hes maybe a slightly better version of luke jackson..


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## matt!

Keith Closs said:


> he wil lnot be able to guard anyone in the pros and will give up as much as he scores..
> 
> plus thoughs midrange shots he gets off in college wil lget blocked in the pros..
> 
> hes maybe a slightly better version of luke jackson..


He's a smart kid who just knows the game. He didn't have a problem getting shots off against any superior athletes of the collegiate level, I don't know why the pros would be any different.

Besides, being slow seems to work well for a number of NBA players.


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## TM

Keith Closs said:


> he wil lnot be able to guard anyone in the pros and will give up as much as he scores..


I don't know why people keep brining this up with slow college guys. Apparently many of you haven't noticed - a lot the guys in the NBA don't play defense, and even if they do, usually it isn't good defense. Morrison's better than Luke Jackson.


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## JuniorNoboa

Compare him to Carmelo Anthony before Luke Jackson. Melo is not the greatest athlete... but he knows how to score mid and in. Luke Jackson does not possess these traits.

oh wait... my comparison is invalid because you can only compare white players to other white players.


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## TM

exactly

Morrion ≠ Larry Bird... therefore, he is nothing like any other player to ever play in the NBA


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## ralaw

JuniorNoboa said:


> oh wait... my comparison is invalid because you can only compare white players to other white players.


I was thinking the same thing. I found it hard though to compare his game to a black player. His game just does't really remind me of any black player. I think Melo is a lot more athletic though. The only player I could think of is a better Wally Sczerbiak who can create his own shot when being guarded by certain players. IMHO, he won't be as bad as Luke Jackson , but he won't be any better than Mike Miller (who I think is a better player). However, Morrison is good player and will be a good 2nd-3rd option for a team.


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## Nimreitz

JuniorNoboa said:


> oh wait... my comparison is invalid because you can only compare white players to other white players.


Yep, that's exactly the rule. And if you can compare a player to another player who went to the same College or came from the same country, then the comparison is infallible. You know, like Hasan Adams = Andre Iguodala or Carlos Delfino = Manu.


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## JuniorNoboa

No doubt Nimreitz.


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## matt!

Nimreitz said:


> Yep, that's exactly the rule. And if you can compare a player to another player who went to the same College or came from the same country, then the comparison is infallible. You know, like Hasan Adams = Andre Iguodala or Carlos Delfino = Manu.


Don't forget the wonderful comparison of Jerome Moiso and Petro


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## jdg

Adam Morrison has always been a player to play bigger when the games get bigger, and last night was just another example. I watch pretty much every Gonzaga game and he constantly impresses me with how clutch he is. I think he intentionally makes himself look like he doesn't belong on the court to add to his clutch play.


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## butr

Keith Closs said:


> he wil lnot be able to guard anyone in the pros and will give up as much as he scores..


This is what I was thinking. He has a great knack for the game, but I think he'll be a step slow. I'll have to see some more. He is not quite the perimeter threat Jackson was. Different players. Not nearly as athletic as Melo. He surprises me all the time with his athletic ability.


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## HKF

Wally Szczerbiak was a first team all-American too and I don't know if Morrison was better than him.

Wally World scored 49 points in the first round of the NCAA tournament and his team only had 61 points and they won over Washington in 1999.

I think people forget how good some of the guys were in college.


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## Jonathan Watters

And Szczerbiak was the #6 pick in a loaded draft, hasn't improved a bit since he was drafted, and still is a solid 15 ppg scorer. Morrison is a high lottery pick.


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## bigbabyjesus

I like the Melo comparison. There not as far apart athletically as one would think.


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## rainman

i've said before he's somewhere between reggie miller with his mid range game and larry legend with his understanding of how to play the game. some think that all these guys know how to play but they dont. adam understands shot clock, when to get the ball to the hot shooter and when to impose your will on the game. the wally comparison isnt bad but morrison is more willing to get others involved. wally's ego is too big for him to take his game to the next level.


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## JNice

..

Watching him tonight Reggie Miller was my first thought. Never stops moving, quick shot, built like a wet toothpick. I could see him being successful in the NBA playing like Reggie or Rip. He doesn't look like a very good defender but one on one defense is somewhat overrated in this regard. Unless you are exceptional, like a Bowen or Artest, it is really about team defense. Put him on a decent defensive team and he'd be fine.

I don't think i've ever seen such a good basketball player who couldn't possibly look any further from a baller. He looks like he should be the lead in a new day grunge band or something.


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## ralaw

HKF said:


> Wally Szczerbiak was a first team all-American too and I don't know if Morrison was better than him.
> 
> Wally World scored 49 points in the first round of the NCAA tournament and his team only had 61 points and they won over Washington in 1999.
> 
> I think people forget how good some of the guys were in college.





Jonathan Watters said:


> And Szczerbiak was the #6 pick in a loaded draft, hasn't improved a bit since he was drafted, and still is a solid 15 ppg scorer. Morrison is a high lottery pick.


When I compare him to Wally Szczerbiak I am not comparing him to his college days as much as I am thinking about how he will developed in the pros. For some reason I can't help, but to think Morrison has maxed out his abilities. Now, please don't take that the wrong way, I do believe he will be a decent 2nd-3rd option, but nothing worthy of a top 5 pick, maybe more of a mid to late 1st round pick! Morrison doesn't play defense and can't handle the ball well enough to be able to get his shot off. I think in order for him to be successful in the NBA he will need to be in a situation similar to RIP Hamilton. I also think people are seriously underratng Carmello Anthony's athletic ability!


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## HKF

I wasn't making a mention of Morrison topping out at how good he is now. I was just saying that Wally World was terrific at Miami (OH). I actually misquoted his point total as well.

He scored 43 points in a 59-58 win over Washington and then lead them over an Andre Miller, Michael Doleac Utah team that went to the National Championship game in the 2nd round. 

I think Morrison is not better than Wally World yet. Now he's not as selfish as Wally, so he will probably do better.


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## jdg

JNice said:


> ..
> 
> Watching him tonight Reggie Miller was my first thought. Never stops moving, quick shot, built like a wet toothpick. I could see him being successful in the NBA playing like Reggie or Rip. He doesn't look like a very good defender but one on one defense is somewhat overrated in this regard. Unless you are exceptional, like a Bowen or Artest, it is really about team defense. Put him on a decent defensive team and he'd be fine.
> 
> I don't think i've ever seen such a good basketball player who couldn't possibly look any further from a baller. He looks like he should be the lead in a new day grunge band or something.


I think the Reggie/Rip comparison is the best one I've heard for Morrison. I think he will probably be a Reggie Lite, but that's still not a bad player at all.

And here's hoping he follows in Steve Nash's footsteps and never cuts that mop. Guys like that make me feel OK about my hair.


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## nbanoitall

actually if you go into the nuggets room i have him compared to hamilton, but come on folks i was a little kid when bird was playing and i can still see the resemblence in their games.

morrison is not a good rebounder (however his rebounding has improved so far this year) nor does he have a post game. Melo is a tough guy, thats why he dominates guys like bruce bowen physically. Morrison is not like that.

Morrison runs around countless screens and then creates once he gets the ball. its beautiful, but its not melo. I'm not saying Morrison is going to be the "next" Larry Bird, however their styles are similar. Morrison trys to physically appear like him though even to their hair color is different. Morrison also is a confident player. He looks relaxed in clutch situations. I just have a feeling about this guy. He will be an all star in the NBA. 

Morrison will be a top 3 pick in the draft this coming year


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## RoddneyThaRippa

Why is everyone jumping on his jock? He's too slow to play in the NBA from what I've seen of him.


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## HKF

Morrison will be a top 3 pick? I don't even know if that's the case. 

He's a SF on the pro level. Larry Bird was a 6'9 (closer to 6'10) SF/PF. I mean just cause Bird was a world class shooter, doesn't mean he wasn't a world class rebounder or passer. Neither of which Morrison is. 

Morrison scores. Stop comparing him to Bird.


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## Matthew Maurer

> Morrison will be a top 3 pick? I don't even know if that's the case.
> 
> He's a SF on the pro level. Larry Bird was a 6'9 (closer to 6'10) SF/PF. I mean just cause Bird was a world class shooter, doesn't mean he wasn't a world class rebounder or passer. Neither of which Morrison is.
> 
> Morrison scores. Stop comparing him to Bird.


HKF thanks for that blurb how true. I hate that comparison it sucks. For every semi 6-9 or over kid who can shoot they get that comparison. Ditto for any African american who can jump he's the next Jordan. I agree people need to look past color lines Morrison is closer to Robert Horry than Larry Bird!!!


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## RocketFreak

He's good. He makes players around him better, he's not Bird, but he is not Dunleavy either. I'll be pulling for Gonzaga. Should be a solid pro. Doesn't have the shot of Peja or the height and quickness of Dirk, but he has the heart, hussle, and talent to make it in the NBA. What the hell, he maybe the next Bird. Maybe Marrison vs Lebron will be the mext Magic vs Bird. Celtics should draft him or the Rockets.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

Matthew Maurer said:


> HKF thanks for that blurb how true. I hate that comparison it sucks. For every semi 6-9 or over kid who can shoot they get that comparison. Ditto for any African american who can jump he's the next Jordan. I agree people need to look past color lines Morrison is closer to Robert Horry than Larry Bird!!!


He's not close in athleticism to Horry, but he shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Bird either. other than size, the two don't have much in common. The comparisions along race lines do get old, but I'm having a hard time finding a black player to compare to Morrison. He really seems like a Mike Miller with less of a shot.


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## nbanoitall

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> He's not close in athleticism to Horry, but he shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Bird either. other than size, the two don't have much in common. The comparisions along race lines do get old, but I'm having a hard time finding a black player to compare to Morrison. He really seems like a Mike Miller with less of a shot.


i think simply because this guy is white he is being under sold. I'm seeing a vast improvement between his sophmore and junior year. Morrison will definitely be his own player in the NBA, but none of you can deny he looks funny out there on the court, just like Larry Bird. I'm wondering if people have a bias against players doing well in the nba because they are white. I remember when Kyle Korver was a senior, I got laughed at telling my friends he should be a first round draft pick.

I suppose it has nothing to do with race, because I heard the same thing about Salim Stoudmire. He's not tall enough, or athletic enough, or whatever. If Morrison can average over 20 points, and 6 o r 7 boards, and shoot over 35% from the three point line (believe he is shooting 44% now) and take his team deep in the tourney, he is going to be a top three pick.


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## Matthew Maurer

> He's not close in athleticism to Horry, but he shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Bird either. other than size, the two don't have much in common. The comparisions along race lines do get old, but I'm having a hard time finding a black player to compare to Morrison. He really seems like a Mike Miller with less of a shot.


I agree my point in the Horry comparison is that he is very far from the Larry Bird comparison.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

nbanoitall said:


> i think simply because this guy is white he is being under sold. I'm seeing a vast improvement between his sophmore and junior year. Morrison will definitely be his own player in the NBA, but none of you can deny he looks funny out there on the court, just like Larry Bird. I'm wondering if people have a bias against players doing well in the nba because they are white. I remember when Kyle Korver was a senior, I got laughed at telling my friends he should be a first round draft pick.
> 
> I suppose it has nothing to do with race, because I heard the same thing about Salim Stoudmire. He's not tall enough, or athletic enough, or whatever. If Morrison can average over 20 points, and 6 o r 7 boards, and shoot over 35% from the three point line (believe he is shooting 44% now) and take his team deep in the tourney, he is going to be a top three pick.


I don't know, it could have something to do with his race, but I'm just not impressed with him as a prospective pro player. He's really a complete player, but I don't think he has the quickness to utilize those skills in the NBA. Salim is a little different in that he's a lights out shooter. Guys like that should always find a niche in the NBA. Morrison has a nice stroke, but he's not lights out.


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## TM

No player, college or NBA, is "lights out" every night they play. But obviously from the title of this thread - "Adam Morrison, *43 pts* and win vs Michigan State" - there are some nights he is. And those are the games that catch the attention of pro scouts, especially the 10+ scouts sitting in the gymnasium of the Maui Invitational. And I don't know why any of us, including myself, make such a big deal about having to assign college guys an NBA player. We should know better - has there ever been another Wilt, Russel, Cousy, Jordan, etc? There's been guys who've dominated at times like Wilt (Shaq), ran a team / handled the ball like Cousy (Magic), scored like Jordan (I won't touch that one). Every guy is unique. Morrison will play in the league. I don't care what color he and it doesn't matter that he needs a hair cut. He's a competitor, and he comes to play night after night. He'll cash in someday.


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## MightyMouse1984

TM said:


> Last second shot. My team's down by 2. I could pick any player in the country to take that last shot. He'd probably be 1 of 3 guys I'd take.
> 
> If you want more on him, read this thread: Most impressive players at Maui/Guardian's Classic



1. gay
2. jamesOncurry
3. justin gray


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## Jonathan Watters

I think Morrison is going to be fine in the NBA. The game is much more one-on-one oriented, and there is a lot more space for taller players to gain a step. The only hope of stopping Morrison at the college level is with a help defender, and there are plenty of teams in the league that don't even attempt to play help defense. 

I don't see how anybody could possibly say that Morrison isn't a potential top 3 pick right now. Who goes over him in this draft? 

As for the Bird comparisons, people are getting a little too uptight here. People aren't saying that Morrison is the next Larry Bird, just that he plays like him. 

Outstanding outside shooter. Creates his own shot. Off the charts basketball IQ. Amazing passer. As clutch as you will find. Great team leader. White. Not the greatest athlete in the world. 

All these characteristics apply to both players. If you can't see the comparison, you really need to get over yourself. Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Vince Carter, and plenty others have been called the next Michael Jordan. Lamar Odom was compared to Magic Johnson. Why shouldn't players be compared to Larry Bird?


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## MightyMouse1984

if morrison was a tad bit faster and had 15-25lbs of muscle more on his frame i'd be a taker. UNtil then he's the next over rated draft player to me at least.


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## TM

MightyMouse1984 said:


> 1. gay


3... 2... 1... you lose



MightyMouse1984 said:


> 2. jamesOncurry


if he's not good enough for your boy Roy, he's not good enough for me


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## HKF

If by shooter, you say he shoots like Bird fine. However, he doesn't rebound or pass like Bird at all. Bird was a shooter/scorer deluxe, who filled up the stat sheet everywhere with steals, rebounds, blocks and assists.

I keep harping on it, but Lebron James is closer to Bird than Morrison is.

Not to mention that Morrison is a diabetic. That's a red flag for me. Think the guy is going to have a full career as a diabetic? I sure hope he does.


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## TM

Jonathan Watters said:


> As for the Bird comparisons, people are getting a little too uptight here. People aren't saying that Morrison is the next Larry Bird, just that he plays like him.
> 
> Outstanding outside shooter. Creates his own shot. Off the charts basketball IQ. Amazing passer. As clutch as you will find. Great team leader. White. Not the greatest athlete in the world.
> 
> All these characteristics apply to both players. If you can't see the comparison, you really need to get over yourself.


Well put.

I don't know that anyone is saying he's going to have the career or success that Bird had. But, there are similarities.


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## Jonathan Watters

HKF said:


> If by shooter, you say he shoots like Bird fine. However, he doesn't rebound or pass like Bird at all. Bird was a shooter/scorer deluxe, who filled up the stat sheet everywhere with steals, rebounds, blocks and assists.
> 
> I keep harping on it, but Lebron James is closer to Bird than Morrison is.


I don't know about LeBron. He certainly fills up the stat sheet, and I agree Bird was more than just a shooter, but I also think that shooting was what made him great. While I will admit I haven't seen LeBron play this year yet, I'm just not sure if you will ever hear "Lebron" and "shooting specialist" in the same sentence. 

As for filling up the stat sheet, I think Morrison does that just fine. He is a remarkably well-rounded player. He isn't the rebounder that Bird is, but that makes sense given he is a true SF and is two inches shorter. Morrison is an amazing passer -not Bird-like, but in that same creative vein. There is just a certain grit and near-arrogance about his game that simply rings Larry Bird. 

Again, it isn't that Morrison is going to be the next Larry Bird. Nobody is going to be the next Larry Bird. There are just some striking similarities, and that is where the comparison comes from.


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## nbanoitall

Jonathan Watters said:


> There is just a certain grit and near-arrogance about his game that simply rings Larry Bird.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> thats the word i was looking for, arrogance. morrison has arrogance. he is a legit 6'8 or 6'9. and we are seeing a much improved 3 point shot. he can be a number one option on a nba team, on a successful nba team.
> 
> speaking of diabetics.... salim stoudamire is one as well it can be managed succesfully. Morrison has been rebounding well this season too. He has been outstanding. In this thread Morrison has been compared to Carmelo Anthony, and Lebron to Larry Bird. This is just insane. I believe Morrison's stock and ability is being downplayed for some reason. This season you really cant attack any part of his game so far, so it just leads me to wonder. Do nba fans immediately discount a successful white athlete from future success in the nba. Are fans just starting to automatically assume guys like Morrison are going to turn into the next Dunleavy (Jr)? And by white I mean players born and raised in the united states. I'm not even trying to make this a racial thing. For instance if Morrison's last name was Nomiertizeaiakvich from Europe this guy would definitely be labeled the next nba superstar from overseas. just something to think about before you honestly try and scout a player.


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## tempe85

nbanoitall said:


> Jonathan Watters said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is just a certain grit and near-arrogance about his game that simply rings Larry Bird.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> thats the word i was looking for, arrogance. morrison has arrogance. he is a legit 6'8 or 6'9. and we are seeing a much improved 3 point shot. he can be a number one option on a nba team, on a successful nba team.
> 
> speaking of diabetics.... salim stoudamire is one as well it can be managed succesfully. Morrison has been rebounding well this season too. He has been outstanding. In this thread Morrison has been compared to Carmelo Anthony, and Lebron to Larry Bird. This is just insane. I believe Morrison's stock and ability is being downplayed for some reason. This season you really cant attack any part of his game so far, so it just leads me to wonder. Do nba fans immediately discount a successful white athlete from future success in the nba. Are fans just starting to automatically assume guys like Morrison are going to turn into the next Dunleavy (Jr)? And by white I mean players born and raised in the united states. I'm not even trying to make this a racial thing. For instance if Morrison's last name was Nomiertizeaiakvich from Europe this guy would definitely be labeled the next nba superstar from overseas. just something to think about before you honestly try and scout a player.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't have said it better myself. If Morrison was putting up the same numbers but was black, or European, everyone would be salivating over him.
Click to expand...


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## ralaw

tempe85 said:


> nbanoitall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't have said it better myself. If Morrison was putting up the same numbers but was black, or European, everyone would be salivating over him.
> 
> 
> 
> Racial undertones can be in everything! If I was white would I be more advanced in my career? Would AI have more endorsements? Would Terrel Owens have been railroaded? Would Colin Powell be elected President? My point is asking hypthetical questions that can't be proven is usless and only leads to more racial anymosity. Is race involved? Yes, as it is involved in most everything. However, the fact is this is America and this is just something we have to deal with.
> 
> As I said earlier, I believe Morrison is a good player who will be a decent 2nd-3rd option, but nothing worthy of a top 5 pick, maybe more of a mid to late 1st round pick! For some reason I believe he has maxed out his potential, so basically I believe what you see is what you get! IMHO, he will come into the league being a good player from day 1, but will max out his ability within his 1st 3 years in the league. In order to be successful I believe Morrison will need to be put in a perfect situation (REggie Miller, RIP role). I will say Morrison is a smart, crafty player who gets good elevation on his shot and has a great ability to score (though he is not a world class shooter), so that alone should allow him to be in my opinion a 10-13 ppg scorer across his career.
> 
> The comparison to white players IMHO, comes from familarity. We as people associate things we find to be similar. It's just a natural comparison. I will say white American born players in the NBA have not done themselves justice! So, this is probably why the "underrating" occurs. Also, you have to look at how scouts and NBA people define potential. Typically potential is a word that is associated with athleticism, which black players typically have more of. I proof to this fact is look at the top players league today. They are predominatly black. Another truth to this is look at Duke's Josh McRoberts who was considered the top pro prospect coming out of highschool last year. He is white, but also is athletic which elevates is potential as a talent in many people's eyes.
Click to expand...


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## ReturnOfTheOldSchool

*Adam Morrison The Next Larry Bird?*

I heard one of the broadcasters say when i was watching the michigan state vs gonzaga game that adam morrison could be the next larry bird. They do have similiar qualities but bird was a better rebounder. I disagree


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## nbanoitall

ralaw said:


> tempe85 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Racial undertones can be in everything! If I was white would I be more advanced in my career? Would AI have more endorsements? Would Terrel Owens have been railroaded? Would Colin Powell be elected President? .
> 
> 
> 
> this is really a load of crap. btw, the next president will be an african american. The TO situation has everything to do with money and nothing to do with race. And a white athlete (in the NBA) that plays like a superstar is going to become rich off endorsements. thats life, and in my post I already mentioned it isnt about race, because europeans can be caucasion as well. My point is Adam Morrison is going to be an all star in the NBA, and I believe if he was european he would get more credit in people's evaluations. Who is going to get drafted above morrison? Gay?, well he has been playing kinda fruity. Andrea? no come on not some dude named Andrea. Oh where is he from.... Italy. Hmmmm, whats the scouting report on him, cant rebound or play defense, relies to much on his jumper, and is weak. Oh but he is listed as a 2nd or 3rd pick. I think ive made my point. Just wait until Morrison gets into conference games. Its one thing to score 43 against Mich state, just wait until the teams he play dont have Rudy Gay or Ager on them. Nobody will be able to guard him.
Click to expand...


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## TM

*Re: Adam Morrison The Next Larry Bird?*



> I heard one of the broadcasters say when i was watching the michigan state vs gonzaga game that adam morrison could be the next larry bird. They do have similiar qualities but bird was a better rebounder. I disagree


similar qualities, yes. morrison have the same career with all the championships and accolades bird had. ectremely hard to believe.

how many more adam morrison threads are we going to have. this should be merged with another post.


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## shookem

man, this whole 'he's white' thing has got people in a tizzy. is it really that bad in america? is everything really about race? Canada has it's own race problems, but I remember watching the movie Crash, and thinking, 'damn is that what it's really like down there?'


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## RoddneyThaRippa

shookem said:


> man, this whole 'he's white' thing has got people in a tizzy. is it really that bad in america? is everything really about race? Canada has it's own race problems, but I remember watching the movie Crash, and thinking, 'damn is that what it's really like down there?'


Yep, sure is. Expect it's more or less on the downlow depending on what area you're living in. But I think the sentiments expressed in that movie ring true for the majority of the population. 

Great movie by the way.


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## shookem

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Yep, sure is. Expect it's more or less on the downlow depending on what area you're living in. But I think the sentiments expressed in that movie ring true for the majority of the population.
> 
> Great movie by the way.


it was, really great, lot's a very good performances. I remember taking a trip to Alabama when I was about 15 or so....I couldn't believe the things I heard on the basketball court, like I said racism is an issue in Canada, but our buses are full of white people too. Up here it's more about economic status, the rich versus the poor, although a summer of gang type shootings in Toronto has everyone worried.
America....**** yeah!
sorry the above post in a little OT, I'll try to bring it back on topic.
Which of these three teams can you see Morrison being a great fit with: Raptors, Hawks, Hornets?


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## ralaw

nbanoitall said:


> this is really a load of crap.





nbanoitall said:


> * Do nba fans immediately discount a successful white athlete  from future success in the nba.* .....And by white I mean players born and raised in the united states. I'm not even trying to make this a racial thing. For instance if Morrison's last name was Nomiertizeaiakvich from Europe this guy would definitely be labeled the next nba superstar from overseas. just something to think about before you honestly try and scout a player.


You obviously didn't get my point of bringing up TO, AI and Colin Powell. How is that comment bolded and underlined not a load of crap? If you believe it wasn't about race than you wouldn't have brought this point up! How is your point of, "Do nba fans immediately discount a successful white athlete from future success?" any different from me saying, "If I was white would I be furthur along in my career?" The only truth in both of these statements is they are hypothetical questions that only divide and cause more racial anymosity. You can't say with conviction if Morrison was european or black he would be a lock for the #1 pick. 



nbanoitall said:


> I already mentioned it isnt about race, because europeans can be caucasion as well.


So, if europeans can be caucasion than why bring up the point of, "Do nba fans immediately discount a successful white athlete from future success in the NBA?" If they are the same than what is your point of saying it from the beginning?



nbanoitall said:


> Just wait until Morrison gets into conference games. Its one thing to score 43 against Mich state, just wait until the teams he play dont have Rudy Gay or Ager on them. Nobody will be able to guard him.


Do you mean, 



> "Just wait until Morrison gets into conference games. Its one thing to score 43 against top competition, just wait until the teams he plays have marginal talent on them. Nobody will be able to guard him.?"


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## BigMike

Morrison is the best offensive threat in the country...and maybe the best player in the country. He's really gotta get rid of that facial hair, though...


----------



## nbanoitall

ralaw said:


> The only truth in both of these statements is they are hypothetical questions that only divide and cause more racial anymosity. You can't say with conviction if Morrison was european or black he would be a lock for the #1 pick.
> QUOTE]
> 
> there is nothing wrong with my question. you know well euros have been hyped up, like that Andrea kid, who have no business being on the top of the draft board, and I do say that with conviction. I answered your question. Colin wont be the next president because he ****ed up in front of the United Nations. Obama will be the next president of the united states and democratic nominee. TO actually would have been deactived a long time ago if he wasnt so damn good. As for AI, the majority of Americans are white, so when a highly talented white athlete enters the league, he is going to get major endorsements, there is no denying that. But lets face it, several people would argue the dress code is racist against the younger generation and several black athletes have said it is racist. And I believe it is within their right to say it. Why can their not be reverse discrimination or racism against a white player (let me clarify... from america) because their hasnt be a highly talented player since Larry Bird. The fact is you cant accuse me of causing racial anymosity unless you do the same both ways. If a woman or minority wants to talk about a glass ceiling, a white male should be able to talk about reverse discrimination in hiring. Judging by the scouting reports and posting, I think my argument is justified.


----------



## rainman

morrison is going to get drafted high partially because he deserves it and partially by default. i would think in the end it will be aldridge of texas and probably 2 or 3 foreign players leaving morrison in the 5-7 range.


----------



## HKF

I just say stop comparing the guy to Bird, because Bird could do everything. This guy can't do everything. 

The only thing they do the same is shoot.

It's like comparing Taylor King to Chris Mullin. When Mullin was at Xavierian in Brooklyn, he was housing fools off the dribble, from deep or the low block. 

People compare guys to Legends. 

Morrison is more likely to be Wally World or Mike Miller or Eddie Johnson or Dale Ellis before being Larry Bird and yet if people would look up Dale Ellis' stats, they'd see he was a hell of a player in the league for many years.

It has nothing to do with being white for me, because I think Mike Miller should be better, but he just isn't. I know white people (in this country) are yearning for a great white basketball player. It's like the yearning to bust a nut. I still think you're going to be waiting for a while though, because Bird is not walking through that door. 

Bird played like a black guy from the city with a jumpshot in my opinion. You need a kid who is just as hungry as he was, to be white in this country. And that's the bottom line.


----------



## rainman

i think comparisons have to be taken in context, i dont think anyone is trying to say adam is going to be larry bird but there are always certain things that look similar. you have the floppy hair, the way he shoots the ball and his intense demeanor on the court. both players shot up after highschool, meaning they developed skills of a smaller player and then they both grew 3 inches before their first game as a collegiate. as for the problem with white players in this country(if there is one) i think they tend to want to be the next k.g. or the next michael when they should pattern their game after guys like bird and mullin and nowitzki.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HKF said:


> I just say stop comparing the guy to Bird, because Bird could do everything. This guy can't do everything.
> 
> The only thing they do the same is shoot.





> Bird played like a black guy from the city with a jumpshot in my opinion. You need a kid who is just as hungry as he was, to be white in this country. And that's the bottom line.


And, unwittingly, you've stumbled upon yet another reason that people compare Morrison to Bird.


----------



## Nimreitz

MightyMouse1984 said:


> 1. gay
> 2. jamesOncurry
> 3. justin gray


Really?

My list would probably be

1. Redick
2. Morrison
3. Dee Brown

You know, because they can all shoot and they've all proven to be clutch in the past. Unlike anyone on your list. Oh, and the All-Time Carolina team from your sig is missing James Worthy, Billy Cunningham, Brad Daugherty, Bobby Jones, Bob McAdoo, and Sam Perkins. But hey, I'm from Wisconsin, so maybe Forte, Lang, Haywood, Peppers, Williams, and Cota were better than those guys, what do I know?


----------



## ralaw

nbanoitall said:


> Why can their not be reverse discrimination or racism against a white player (let me clarify... from america) because their hasnt be a highly talented player since Larry Bird. The fact is you cant accuse me of causing racial anymosity unless you do the same both ways. ....


You didn't get my point. I an not arguing whether TO, AI or Colin Powell are victims of discrimination. My point was making hypothetical questions like, if Morrison was european or black he would be the #1 pick, can't be proven therefore only create more anymosity. You then went and gave your opinions on why TO, AI or Colin Powell aren't victims of discrimination, which proves my point that it is a hypothetical question that only generates an opinion. 

Just as easy I could say, Morrison isn't a victim of descrimination because white American born players picked in the top 15 in the draft since 1992 have proven they peak on their ability generally in the first 3-5 years in the league.

Christian Laettner (1992) 
Tom Gugliotta (1992)
Scott Haskin (1993)
Shawn Bradley (1993)
Eric Montross (1994)
Eric Piatkowski (1994)
Bryant Reeves (1995)
Cherokee Parks (1995)
Tony Fuller (1996)
Keith Vanhorn (1997)
Austin Croshere (1997)
Raef Lafrentz (1998)
Michael Doleac (1998)
Matt Harpring (1998)
Wally Szczerbiak (1999)
Mike Miller (2000)
Joel Przybilla (2000)
Chris Mihm (2000)
_the late_ Jason Collier (2000)

*exceptions being* 

Brent Barry (1995) _marginal_
Jason Williams (1998) _marginal_
Troy Murphy (2001)

_*I am not going to put players from the 2002-2005 draft in because they have not had enough time yet to show what they will or will not become. _ However, IMHO Mike Dunleavy, Chris Kaman, and Luke Jackson have reached their peak. 



nbanoitall said:


> If a woman or minority wants to talk about a glass ceiling, a white male should be able to talk about reverse discrimination in hiring. Judging by the scouting reports and posting, I think my argument is justified


You are correct, but only when it is warranted. I am not saying Morrison won't be a good player who can't overcome what his predessecors couldn't overcome, but I am saying IMHO, he will prove to be not worthy of a top 5 pick.


----------



## shookem

uhh, hey guys,
do you think Morrison will be able to play as a SG in the NBA? Does he have the skills to play that position, I haven't seen him play since last season.


*I shouldn't even be commenting on this whole race, I think it's a non-issue, but apparently not. ralaw had some good points in that list, maybe it's just because in general there are more black franchise players, therefore it would be easy to assume the next player you draft to be your franchise player would be black.
"America....**** yeah!"


----------



## JuniorNoboa

Nimreitz said:


> Really?
> 
> My list would probably be
> 
> 1. Redick
> 2. Morrison
> 3. Dee Brown
> 
> You know, because they can all shoot and they've all proven to be clutch in the past. Unlike anyone on your list. Oh, and the All-Time Carolina team from your sig is missing James Worthy, Billy Cunningham, Brad Daugherty, Bobby Jones, Bob McAdoo, and Sam Perkins. But hey, I'm from Wisconsin, so maybe Forte, Lang, Haywood, Peppers, Williams, and Cota were better than those guys, what do I know?


Justin Gray has been clutch in the past and this year. Do you remember the Wake-WVU game from last year.


----------



## ralaw

shookem said:


> uhh, hey guys,
> do you think Morrison will be able to play as a SG in the NBA? Does he have the skills to play that position, I haven't seen him play since last season.
> 
> 
> *I shouldn't even be commenting on this whole race, I think it's a non-issue, but apparently not. ralaw had some good points in that list, maybe it's just because in general there are more black franchise players, therefore it would be easy to assume the next player you draft to be your franchise player would be black.
> "America....**** yeah!"


I think Morrison's best postition will be sg. He has size (6-8) and gets good elevation on his shot making it hard for an average sg to block him. However, I think defensively he is between a sg and sf. For the record I would love to have Morrison on my team, but not with a top 5-10 pick.


----------



## TM

Nimreitz said:


> Really?
> 
> My list would probably be
> 
> 1. Redick
> 2. Morrison
> 3. Dee Brown


He's a UNC fan. Of course he wouldn't have Redick on there



> Oh, and the All-Time Carolina team from your sig is missing James Worthy, Billy Cunningham, Brad Daugherty, Bobby Jones, Bob McAdoo, and Sam Perkins. But hey, I'm from Wisconsin, so maybe Forte, Lang, Haywood, Peppers, Williams, and Cota were better than those guys, what do I know?


Don't bother. He's already been asked about his list. I doubt he ever saw Worthy, Perkins, & Co. play a live college game.


----------



## shookem

ralaw said:


> I think Morrison's best postition will be sg. He has size (6-8) and gets good elevation on his shot making it hard for an average sg to block him. However, I think defensively he is between a sg and sf. For the record I would love to have Morrison on my team, but not with a top 5-10 pick.


So then you do not believe he is the top SG prospect in the draft? who do you think is?


----------



## ralaw

shookem said:


> So then you do not believe he is the top SG prospect in the draft? who do you think is?


I would take Rodney Brewer and depending on how they play this year Rodney Carney and Brandon Rush over him. I believe Rodney Brewer is straight up better and Carney and Rush have more potential. As I said earlier I think Morrison will come into the league being a good player from day 1, but will max out his ability within his 1st 3 years in the league. For his career I expect 10-13ppg 4rpg 2apg which is not worthy of a top 5 pick.


----------



## shookem

ralaw said:


> I would take Rodney Brewer and depending on how they play this year Rodney Carney and Brandon Rush over him. I believe Rodney Brewer is straight up better and Carney and Rush have more potential. As I said earlier I think Morrison will come into the league being a good player from day 1, but will max out his ability within his 1st 3 years in the league. For his career I expect 10-13ppg 4rpg 2apg which is not worthy of a top 5 pick.


thx man, repped.

was JRich the last legit, great SG drafted in the top five?


----------



## TM

if you're talking about that mystical "upside" stuff, then maybe Rush over Morrison, but Rush has quite a bit to learn before he's on par with Morrison. Brewer is solid. He's more athletic (another one of those vague nouns which has multiple meanings), but I think it's a bit of a joke to think anyone is ahead of Morrison at the moment.


----------



## TM

shookem said:


> was JRich the last legit, great SG drafted in the top five?


What do you think about Ben Gordon? (BTW, you can call him a PG if you want, but I have yet to see him play that role on that Bulls team)


----------



## HKF

Ronnie Brewer is not better than Adam Morrison. 

Rodney Carney if he ever gets some real coaching might be though (on the pro level). Calipari doesn't use the guy right.


----------



## shookem

TM said:


> What do you think about Ben Gordon? (BTW, you can call him a PG if you want, but I have yet to see him play that role on that Bulls team)


yeah, I thought of Gordon, but I'm really talking about pure SG's: Redd, Kobe etc.


----------



## ralaw

shookem said:


> thx man, repped.
> 
> was JRich the last legit, great SG drafted in the top five?


Yes, unless you consider Dwayne Wade a pg which I don't. Also TM, to me Ben Gordon is overrated and like Iverson will need to move to the pg.



TM said:


> if you're talking about that mystical "upside" stuff, then maybe Rush over Morrison, but Rush has quite a bit to learn before he's on par with Morrison. Brewer is solid. He's more athletic (another one of those vague nouns which has multiple meanings), but I think it's a bit of a joke to think anyone is ahead of Morrison at the moment.


I never said Rush or Carney were better than Morrison right now, however the draft is about potential, and I believe they have more potential than Morrison. As a matter of fact taking potential out of it I believe the top 3 players in the country are 1) Morrison 2) Reddick 3) Shelden Williams however to me none of them are worthy of a top 5 pick.


----------



## TM

> however the draft is about potential


unfortunately, you're right.


----------



## ralaw

TM said:


> unfortunately, you're right.


I know it is sad doesn't Andrea Bargnani's scouting report sound like the scouting report on Darko?



> Bargnani is a prototypical player in terms of the physical attributes and raw skills that scouts salivate over in their search for the next young European (star?) big man.
> 
> First his physical attributes. He's tall (easily a 7 footer), and a very fluid athlete that runs the court very well, has a very nice first step and is a decent leaper. He'll never be a power player in the paint, but his frame suggests that his bulk will be adequate for the power forward position in the future.


What I don't understand is they say scouts are looking for the "next young European (star?) big man" as if there has been many but how many have we had in the last 10 years? Dirk Nowitzki and if you ask him Andrew Bogut?


----------



## Jonathan Watters

JuniorNoboa said:


> Justin Gray has been clutch in the past and this year. Do you remember the Wake-WVU game from last year.


What did Justin Gray do late in that game? Chris Paul was carrying the team until he fouled out, and then Taron Downey took over...


----------



## Nimreitz

Jonathan Watters said:


> What did Justin Gray do late in that game? Chris Paul was carrying the team until he fouled out, and then Taron Downey took over...


Although bringing up that game reminded me that I'd probably rather have Gansey at #3 than Dee. Man I love Gansey.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

Jonathan Watters said:


> What did Justin Gray do late in that game? Chris Paul was carrying the team until he fouled out, and then Taron Downey took over...


Correct... somewhere in the back of my mind I got Gray and Downey confused.


----------



## nbanoitall

ralaw said:


> You are correct, but only when it is warranted. I am not saying Morrison won't be a good player who can't overcome what his predessecors couldn't overcome, but I am saying IMHO, he will prove to be not worthy of a top 5 pick.


Judging from his action on the court He is worthy of a top five pick. I can tell people have been reading this thread. A coincidence Morrison has moved all the way up to the Second Pick on Nbadraft.net??

You cant be one sided. If a minority or youth can argue a dress code is discrimination. A white player can argue his value/talent is being discriminated against because of his race. C. Laettner was an oustanding player, I remember him and mutombo and steve smith kicking ***. He has/had a drug problem. The dude looked like jesus for awhile. There are several talented white players in the league, Murphy and Collison are looking good. Korver is an amazing shooter. Im suggesting Morrison will be better than those guys and be an all star in the league. That is worthy if a number one or two pick. You cant shoot down my argument with your argument, because my argument is an opinion. I said it before if Morrison was from Serbia or Germany he would be the next "superstar". Telling me I'm not entitled to my voice is no different than telling a minority or just a youth of any race that they are not entitled to their opinion on issues such as the dress code.


----------



## ralaw

nbanoitall said:


> You cant be one sided. If a minority or youth can argue a dress code is discrimination. A white player can argue his value/talent is being discriminated against because of his race. C. Laettner was an oustanding player, I remember him and mutombo and steve smith kicking ***. He has/had a drug problem. The dude looked like jesus for awhile. There are several talented white players in the league, Murphy and Collison are looking good. Korver is an amazing shooter. Im suggesting Morrison will be better than those guys and be an all star in the league. That is worthy if a number one or two pick. You cant shoot down my argument with your argument, because my argument is an opinion. I said it before if Morrison was from Serbia or Germany he would be the next "superstar". Telling me I'm not entitled to my voice is no different than telling a minority or just a youth of any race that they are not entitled to their opinion on issues such as the dress code.


I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your own opinion. You are correct. You are entitled to your own opinion. I was simply saying, you can't prove if Morrison was from Serbia, Germany or black he would be a "superstar". Just as I can't prove if I was white I would be further along in my career. As I said, white American born players haven't done themselves well in the past NBA drafts, typically they peak in the first 3-5 years in the league. So, this is why I believe many white American born players suffer when it comes to draft status.


----------



## nbanoitall

ralaw said:


> I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your own opinion. You are correct. You are entitled to your own opinion. I was simply saying, you can't prove if Morrison was from Serbia, Germany or black he would be a "superstar". Just as I can't prove if I was white I would be further along in my career. As I said, white American born players haven't done themselves well in the past NBA drafts, typically they peak in the first 3-5 years in the league. So, this is why I believe many white American born players suffer when it comes to draft status.


see this is where i dont think you are being fair. Some white americans have done well in the league, they just arent Larry Bird or Jerry West. Thats a pretty damn high standard. Lets look at Murphy

He is dropping over 16 points over 8 rebounds 1/2 block a game. Shooting .388 from the 3 point line and 82% on his free throws. This guy is an all star level talent. So I really dont think we should rate an american white player "lower" because there were some busts. 

This is my point. Lets say you felt you had been discriminated against at your work. Maybe someone not doing as good as job as you got promoted in front of you. I think youd have a beef. Now I'm watching Morrison and realizing right now he is the hottest prospect that will likely go pro this summer. You cant deny the performances he has been having. Now lets say this guy was down on the boards 6-12 while less deserving people were in front of him (thats how it was). How can I prove a european would get rated higher than he deserves. Ivan the Terrible was a great example. There are players all over that if they played college ball in america we'd know right away they were second rounds and undraftables, but in the european game we watch their pretty jumpers and think they are pro material. I'm saying it right now Aldridge is the only guy you can make any kind of an argument for as the first pick in the draft other than adam. If Gay improves then you can start talking about him, but right now he is a two or three on the boards (if the board is done right).

I dont think I'm just "stirring the pot" by questioning how I am. Certainly people are listening. Morrison is moving up. I know after Bird there are some high expectations, but there have been talented white americans that played after him. And I dont think because we havent had somebody like Bird in the league (for awhile) should mean this kid doesnt get the recognition he deserves. 

How can I prove this? How can you prove your employment has a glass ceiling? Sometimes its hard to prove. There certainly is evidence that I can and have pointed too. You just have to ask yourself when you go to the playground and you see some white kid shooting hoops do you think he probably doesnt know how to ball? I think that is what Morrison is facing right now. Well he was great in high school but is he going to be able to create his own shot in college. Ok well he can create in college, but he cant hit the three. Ok now he is hitting the three, but he wont make it as a pro, he's got "whiteman's desease". Sure he's not a top three pick? He keeps overcoming what everyone says he cant do.


----------



## ralaw

nbanoitall said:


> .......


You bring up some valid points about white players being downgraded due to their skin color, but as I said white American players have not done themselves well in recent drafts. Here is something I posted on page 5 of this thread. These players were white American born players who have been picked in the top 15 of the draft since 1992. The first list is players who peaked in their 1st 3-5 years, which tells me they were not worth a top pick.




> Christian Laettner (1992)
> Tom Gugliotta (1992)
> Scott Haskin (1993)
> Shawn Bradley (1993)
> Eric Montross (1994)
> Eric Piatkowski (1994)
> Bryant Reeves (1995)
> Cherokee Parks (1995)
> Tony Fuller (1996)
> Keith Vanhorn (1997)
> Austin Croshere (1997)
> Raef Lafrentz (1998)
> Michael Doleac (1998)
> Matt Harpring (1998)
> Wally Szczerbiak (1999)
> Mike Miller (2000)
> Joel Przybilla (2000)
> Chris Mihm (2000)
> the late Jason Collier (2000)
> 
> *exceptions being * (players who have improved beyond their first 3-5 years in the league)
> 
> Brent Barry (1995) marginal
> Jason Williams (1998) marginal
> Troy Murphy (2001)
> 
> *I am not going to put players from the 2002-2005 draft in because they have not had enough time yet to show what they will or will not become. However, IMHO Mike Dunleavy, Chris Kaman, and Luke Jackson have reached their peak.


Now, I believe this is the reason great players like Morrison get the draft grade they get. Is it wrong to assume just because the above mentioned players peaked in their first 3-5 years than Morrison will, but this list goes a long way in defining why white American players are downgraded. Let me say again it is wrong and prejudice, but it is a reality. As I said I believe Morrison has peaked! I do not expect Morrison to improve much more from where he is now. Yes, I agree Morrison is the best player in the country (taking potential out of the equation), but the draft is also about potential and there are other players who have more potential. I personally do not believe Morrison will be any better than Mike Miller (who I believe is a better player). 

I agree International players are overhyped by scouts which I really don't understand. They always say they are looking for the next "European superstar" as if there have been many. The only one I can think of is Dirk Nowitzki.


----------



## shookem

This whole idea of evalutating someone based on there skin colour is bunk. I'm pretty sure if a cop busts a hundred crack dealers, he'll have a pretty good idea what the next one looks like, that doesn't mean I want him to rely on that or in most cases even use it. 
Bring Morrison to Canada!.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

shookem said:


> This whole idea of evalutating someone based on there skin colour is bunk.


I have to agree with this part of your post, shookem. 

There are stereotypes that people have made about African American basketball players, and you don't see them being flung about around here. Anybody can come up with a list for anything if they are willing to leave out the notable exceptions. Ralaw has chosen to completely ignore players like Brad Miller, and Steve Nash in his stereotyping of white players that have come up through the American basketball system, and conveniently ignores plenty of star-level Euros such as Peja Stoyakovic and Pau Gasol. 

Furthermore, I notice a couple of other flaws in his "peaked" list. 

Matt Harpring didn't peak early, and has accomplished a lot more than the average #15 pick. Joel Pryzbilla sure as hell didn't peak early. 

There is also the fact that the NBA is a much younger game that most people realize. Peaking in your first 3-5 years isn't that out of the ordinary anymore. 

I'm willing to go so far as to say that Ralaw's list is no more than a biased run down of every white bust to come out over the last fifteen years or so. 

Adam Morrison is a great basketball player, and it has nothing to do with whether or not he is white. He creates his shot as well as anybody I've ever seen at the college level. He is not a one-dimensional shooter, as several have stereotyped him as on this thread. He very well could have peaked, but plenty of players have by the time they are an upperclassman in college. He is the best player in the NCAA, and if he had two years of experience under his belt in the NBA, he would be a pretty darn good NBA player right now as well. 

In the end, there just aren't five players better than Morrison in this draft. Blame it on the Age Limit rule, but if you can't see this, specifically for the 2006 draft, I call you biased.


----------



## ralaw

Jonathan Watters said:


> Ralaw has chosen to completely ignore players like Brad Miller, and Steve Nash in his stereotyping of white players that have come up through the American basketball system, and conveniently ignores plenty of star-level Euros such as Peja Stoyakovic and Pau Gasol.


I took only took white American born players who were drafted in the top 15 in making this list. The reason for this was due to the fact Morrison is expected to be picked within this range. You are correct Brad Miller is a great player who has developed, but he was picked outside of the top 15, actually he wasn't even drafted. The reason I left Nash off the list was due to the fact he was born in Johannesburg, South Africa and played in Canada. This list wasn't about star-level Euros, so mentioning Peja, Gasol, Dirk, etc. would have been off topic. The discussion is about white American born players.



Jonathan Watters said:


> Furthermore, I notice a couple of other flaws in his "peaked" list.
> 
> Matt Harpring didn't peak early, and has accomplished a lot more than the average #15 pick. Joel Pryzbilla sure as hell didn't peak early.
> 
> There is also the fact that the NBA is a much younger game that most people realize. Peaking in your first 3-5 years isn't that out of the ordinary anymore.


I disagree with you about Harpring and Pryzbilla. Harpring's peak statistical year (02-03 season - 17.6ppg, 6.6rpg, 2apg) was in his 5th year in the league and since then his stats have declined. Actually, if you disregard the 03-04 season where Harpring averaged 8rpg but only played in 31 games, his 02-03 season stats were the highest in every category I mentioned. In Pryzbilla's case he had is best season thus far in his 5th year (last year). However, Pryzbilla has averaged 4ppg 5rpg and 1.6bpg for his career. These are hardly numbers I would expect from the 9th pick in the draft. 



Jonathan Watters said:


> I'm willing to go so far as to say that Ralaw's list is no more than a biased run down of every white bust to come out over the last fifteen years or so.


It's not bias! I'm simply pointing out the truth! I didn't just post some random list to degrade white American players. If you don't believe me look at thier stats. They all peaked extremelly early and in some cases faded away and in others just were good role players. Please don't think this is a list meant to downgrade white American born players. That was not its intentions. Trust me there are a number of black and European players who also could be on a similar list. I was simply pointing out a fact on a possible reason why white American born players are downgraded when it comes to the draft.



Jonathan Watters said:


> Adam Morrison is a great basketball player, and it has nothing to do with whether or not he is white. He creates his shot as well as anybody I've ever seen at the college level. He is not a one-dimensional shooter, as several have stereotyped him as on this thread.


I agree and I have been saying he is an excellent player, probably the best in the nation (taking potential out of it), but I am of the belief he has peaked as a player. Does that mean he won't play in the league? No, IMHO in just means he will come into the league and make an immediate impact, but he won't improve much after that. As I said, I expect him to be a 10-13ppg scorer for his career, which is not what I would expect from a top 3-5 pick as some are saying he should be.



Jonathan Watters said:


> In the end, there just aren't five players better than Morrison in this draft. Blame it on the Age Limit rule, but if you can't see this, specifically for the 2006 draft, I call you biased.


I agree they aren't 5 ready made players in the draft better than Morrison, but I would say there are 5 players who have the potential to be better than Morrison, which is what the draft is about. Namely, Rudy Gay, LaMarcus Aldridge, Ronnie Brewer, Rodney Carney and Rajon Rondo. I'm not even mentioning the foreign players scouts see to be enamored with in Andrea Bargnani and Tiago Splitter.

Also, please don't think I am some type of racist or prejudice person. I am far from that! I am simply pointing out some facts. Actually JJ Redick is my favorite player in college basketball. However, I understand the facts. In the end it is really just about opinion.


----------



## xman

Yah people will judge him more harshly because he is white and somepeople will jock him more because he is white. It's just the way it is at this point in time, although it is changing slowly and people are paying less attention to race as we all move foward. Anyway if you have watched Morrison at all you can tell he has the attitude to be an Nba allstar. His three point shot has improved even since last year and as hard a worker he is it will continue to get better. He will become deadly from three and should be a solid offense option in the NBA. As far as defense he can step it up a notch when he wants to put the energy into it just look at the article in the draft express http://draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1129 Gay didn't exactly dominate the match up when Morrison had to D up on him toward the end of the game. Also they make a good point about how he couldn't be stop despite having to go up against some of the best wing defenders in the nation, I mean its not like he only played this well against shmoo state these were good teams at this tourney. Anyway like I said when he dials in his three point shot a little more (not that it is bad) he will be even more dangerous than he is now. He is not the most athletic but his release point is so high and shot is so quick add that to his cleveness and intelligence he will get off his shot in the NBA. Ohh and have you ever seen how he uses his elbows to create seperation so he can get his shot off, the kid has some nasty in him he is not soft at all. When comparing him to Wally that is the difference I see, Szczerbiak seems soft to me, Morrison doesn't.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

ralaw said:


> I took only took white American born players who were drafted in the top 15 in making this list. The reason for this was due to the fact Morrison is expected to be picked within this range. You are correct Brad Miller is a great player who has developed, but he was picked outside of the top 15, actually he wasn't even drafted. The reason I left Nash off the list was due to the fact he was born in Johannesburg, South Africa and played in Canada. This list wasn't about star-level Euros, so mentioning Peja, Gasol, Dirk, etc. would have been off topic. The discussion is about white American born players.


Nash is white, he developed in the American system just like any other eligible player. He is left off your list on a technicality, but more because it doesn't fit your desired result. The same can be said about Brad Miller. 



> I disagree with you about Harpring and Pryzbilla. Harpring's peak statistical year (02-03 season - 17.6ppg, 6.6rpg, 2apg) was in his 5th year in the league and since then his stats have declined. Actually, if you disregard the 03-04 season where Harpring averaged 8rpg but only played in 31 games, his 02-03 season stats were the highest in every category I mentioned. In Pryzbilla's case he had is best season thus far in his 5th year (last year). However, Pryzbilla has averaged 4ppg 5rpg and 1.6bpg for his career. These are hardly numbers I would expect from the 9th pick in the draft.


The fifth year of a player's career is definitely the prime of their career. Harpring certainly developed dramatically after being drafted, and injuries are really the only thing that has held him back. Again, completely opposite of your original premise, but you are using a technicality to make your point. 

The same can be said for Pryzbilla. He was terrible his first few years in the league, and is now a quite decent center. As far as that draft goes, he can't be considered a bust anymore. 



> It's not bias! I'm simply pointing out the truth! I didn't just post some random list to degrade white American players. If you don't believe me look at thier stats. They all peaked extremelly early and in some cases faded away and in others just were good role players. Please don't think this is a list meant to downgrade white American born players. That was not its intentions. Trust me there are a number of black and European players who also could be on a similar list. I was simply pointing out a fact on a possible reason why white American born players are downgraded when it comes to the draft.


It is a biased version of the truth, I am sticking to my guns here. If you weren't out to make a point about white players not being good NBA players, you wouldn't make your requirements so stringent that the white players who have done well just don't count. 



> I agree and I have been saying he is an excellent player, probably the best in the nation (taking potential out of it), but I am of the belief he has peaked as a player. Does that mean he won't play in the league? No, IMHO in just means he will come into the league and make an immediate impact, but he won't improve much after that. As I said, I expect him to be a 10-13ppg scorer for his career, which is not what I would expect from a top 3-5 pick as some are saying he should be.


Morrison could suit up for an NBA tomorrow and average 10-13 ppg. You don't need upside when you are already polished enough to be an NBA standout.



> I agree they aren't 5 ready made players in the draft better than Morrison, but I would say there are 5 players who have the potential to be better than Morrison, which is what the draft is about. Namely, Rudy Gay, LaMarcus Aldridge, Ronnie Brewer, Rodney Carney and Rajon Rondo. I'm not even mentioning the foreign players scouts see to be enamored with in Andrea Bargnani and Tiago Splitter.


There isn't anybody in the draft that you can't make this statement about. You just said nothing. 



> Also, please don't think I am some type of racist or prejudice person. I am far from that! I am simply pointing out some facts. Actually JJ Redick is my favorite player in college basketball. However, I understand the facts. In the end it is really just about opinion.


You understand your view of the facts, and are using technicalities to get there. Morrison being white has nothing to do with his future at the NBA level. Him being unathletic might, so maybe you ought to stick with that generaliztion. Of course, that is what you are saying, but you are simply using more politically correct terminology to say it. 

If you truly weren't biased, you would be more willing to accept that there are faults in the methods you used to come to your conclusions.


----------



## xman

I mean I remember alot of people saying Bogut was going to be a huge bust because he lacked athetisism and he is holding his own so far. I mean being athletic is important but attitude *owns* and Morrison has that winners attitude.


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## nbanoitall

Finally someone else comes to Morrison's defense. He is getting better every year regardless of any list of players. Morrison isnt on that list. You have to evaluate each player individually, and Morrison is working hard in the off season's and improving his game every year. He will do the same when he enters the NBA, and a lot of the time players "peak" earlier in their careers after playing 4 years in college. That probably has a lot more to do with it than race.


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## zagsfan20

> I agree and I have been saying he is an excellent player, probably the best in the nation (taking potential out of it), but I am of the belief he has peaked as a player. Does that mean he won't play in the league? No, IMHO in just means he will come into the league and make an immediate impact, but he won't improve much after that. As I said, I expect him to be a 10-13ppg scorer for his career, which is not what I would expect from a top 3-5 pick as some are saying he should be.


I'll take this as what it is, someone else's opinion......

Anyone who follows Gonzaga closely would tell you its far from the truth...


----------



## ralaw

Jonathan Watters said:


> Nash is white, he developed in the American system just like any other eligible player. He is left off your list on a technicality, but more because it doesn't fit your desired result. The same can be said about Brad Miller.


Okay fine, if you want to add Miller and Nash to this list it is fine with me, however, the orginal argument was about white American *born * players who are picked in the top 15. Not white players who developed in the Amerian system! Even if you add Nash and Miller that still doesn't deny the fact that the players listed all peaked earlier. Actually, Brad Miller was more of an exception to the rule (regardless of race) considering he was a undrafted free agent. I'm trying to figure out why YOU seem to be interested in making this list seem to be what you call a "desired result". The list is *EVERY* white American born player drafted in the top 15 since 1992 save Bobby Hurley! That is hardly bias. IT JUST THE TRUTH!




Jonathan Watters said:


> It is a biased version of the truth, I am sticking to my guns here. If you weren't out to make a point about white players not being good NBA players, you wouldn't make your requirements so stringent that the white players who have done well just don't count.


Okay fine, what is the truth? You are taking this list to personal! Not one time did I say white American born players weren't good in the NBA! Stop putting words in my mouth and assuming! I am simply pointing out a *possible* reason why white American born players get downgraded (which I have been saying the entire time).



Jonathan Watters said:


> Morrison could suit up for an NBA tomorrow and average 10-13 ppg. You don't need upside when you are already polished enough to be an NBA standout.


I already said (post #47) Morrison will make an immediate impact, so you aren't telling me anything.



ralaw said:


> IMHO, he will come into the league being a good player from day 1.


And, I disagree! You need upside even if you are already a great player. (see-Christian Leattner, Calbert Cheaney, Joe Smith, Tom Gugliotta, etc..) 



Jonathan Watters said:


> There isn't anybody in the draft that you can't make this statement about. You just said nothing.


What are you talking about? I have been saying the entire thread that I believe Morrison is the best player in the nation (taking potential out of it)! However, the draft *is* about potential.



Jonathan Watters said:


> You understand your view of the facts, and are using technicalities to get there. Morrison being white has nothing to do with his future at the NBA level. Him being unathletic might, so maybe you ought to stick with that generaliztion. Of course, that is what you are saying, but you are simply using more politically correct terminology to say it.


I think you really need to go back and _re_read this thread! You are attempting to make it seem as if I am saying white Amerian born players aren't good NBA prospects which is far from the truth! I simply went through every white American born player picked in the top 15 from 1992-2000 (except for Bobby Hurley do to injury) and pointed out they all peaked early. If you disagree than *show* me why! You attempted to make a rebuttle by pointing out Nash and Miller which technically had nothing to do with this discussion considering they didn't fit the criteria from the original discussion. However, if that is what you want to do fine, but just remember for every Miller and Nash you name I can name a Don Maclean, Brent Price, Rex Walters, Bill Curley, Brooks Thompson, etc...which btw also don't qualify for the orginal criteria (white American born and picked in the top 15) which is why they also were left off the list.



Jonathan Watters said:


> If you truly weren't biased, you would be more willing to accept that there are faults in the methods you used to come to your conclusions.


The only fault I can think of is there are a number of black and European players who peak early and subsequently decline (which I already said as well)!


----------



## ralaw

zagsfan20 said:


> I'll take this as what it is, someone else's opinion......
> 
> Anyone who follows Gonzaga closely would tell you its far from the truth...


Okay *zagsfan*20!


----------



## ralaw

nbanoitall said:


> Finally someone else comes to Morrison's defense. He is getting better every year regardless of any list of players. Morrison isnt on that list. You have to evaluate each player individually, and Morrison is working hard in the off season's and improving his game every year. He will do the same when he enters the NBA, and a lot of the time players "peak" earlier in their careers after playing 4 years in college. That probably has a lot more to do with it than race.


I agree he is getting better. *People I already said Morrison is the best player in the nation!*I was simply pointing out a *possible reason * as to why Morrison and other white American born players get downgraded when it comes to the draft. That's it! Stop reading into my post! I also said I believe Morrison will make an imediate impact from day 1 in the NBA, however, IMHO, he will peak earlier than what you would expect from a top 3-5 pick in the draft which is independent of the list of players I posted.


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## nbanoitall

ralaw said:


> I agree he is getting better. *People I already said Morrison is the best player in the nation!*I was simply pointing out a *possible reason *as to why Morrison and other white American born players get downgraded when it comes to the draft. That's it! Stop reading into my post! I also said I believe Morrison will make an imediate impact from day 1 in the NBA, however, IMHO, he will peak earlier than what you would expect from a top 3-5 pick in the draft which is independent of the list of players I posted.


why should he reread the thread, you were silly enough to make a list of white guys that in your imo maxed out early but didnt take into account for say addiction to drugs or playing 4 years of college ball, and you only took players drafted early, as if to automatically discount draft day steals.

its wrong to make assumptions on adam morrison based on that list. therefore, that list has no basis or meaning for this thread. You have a job and are doing really well, but I decide to promote a person from another race. you question me about it some I come up with a list to show you why you shouldnt be promoted. Actually Morrison could score a lot more than 13 points a game in the league right now. He has "potiental" on both sides of the ball. Including D fense and rebounding. I think he will get even better at his rebounding.


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## ralaw

nbanoitall said:


> why should he reread the thread, you were silly enough to make a list of white guys that in your imo maxed out early but didnt take into account for say addiction to drugs or playing 4 years of college ball, and you only took players drafted early, as if to automatically discount draft day steals.


Again, for the last time! The list was made because Adam Morrison is considered to be a top NBA draft pick. The list shows players who were top draft picks. If you disagree with the list than go through it and show me how those players continued to improve after there 5th year rather than telling my they did! The discussion wasn't about drugs or 4 year college players, it was about possible reasons why white American born players get downgraded when it comes to draft status. I already said it is unfair, but it is a reality in today's society. If you check the list you will see I left Bobby Hurley (1993) off, becuase he was injured and never got the opportunity to show what he could do. So, please don't make it seem like I am picking on every white American born player who comes into the league. Other than him I went through *EVERY* white American player (picked in the top 15 from 1992-2000) and listed them. So, don't try to make it seem like I twisted this list and left of certain players to say what I wanted it to say. 



nbanoitall said:


> its wrong to make assumptions on adam morrison based on that list. therefore, that list has no basis or meaning for this thread. .


I think you are also taking it to personal. Find somewhere in this thread where I said Adam Morrison shouldn't be a top pick because he is white or because of this list! Show me! You are also putting words in my mouth and making assumptions. If I have been saying the entire time, white American born players are downgraded because of their predecessors then I show you a list of the white American born players picked in the top 15 from 1992-2000 and I say they all have peaked, than the list has relevance. So tell me how the list is irrelevant! Until you or someone else shows me how these players did not peak in their first 3-5 years than the list is relevant. 

What other reason do you attribute to white American basketball players being downgraded? The only thing I am doing is showing is a *possible* reason as to why. If you disagree than show me another possible reason instead of saying my reason is pointless. However, there has to be a reason(s) as to why white American born players get downgraded. You yourself said (wth no explanation),



nbanoitall said:


> "Do nba fans immediately discount a successful white athlete from future success in the nba...Are fans just starting to automatically assume guys like Morrison are going to turn into the next Dunleavy (Jr)? And by white I mean players born and raised in the united states...if Morrison's last name was Nomiertizeaiakvich from Europe this guy would definitely be labeled the next nba superstar from overseas.


So, why do you believe this is? (show me possible reason as to why)



nbanoitall said:


> You have a job and are doing really well, but I decide to promote a person from another race. you question me about it some I come up with a list to show you why you shouldnt be promoted.


I am not using the list to downgrade Morrison. Again as I already said (post #94), "IMHO, he will peak earlier than what you would expect from a top 3-5 pick in the draft *which is independent of the list of players I posted*. In other words, the list is independent of my personal views of Morrison! From watching him as a basketball player (not being white), I believe his abilities have peaked. Again the list was to show a *possible* reason as to why white American players get downgraded. Which you keep saying is usless, with no explanation of proof as to why it is wrong. 

In the context that you wrote about me wanting a promotion you are correct! However, that is not what we are talking about here. Now, if I was a GM and told Adam Morrison the reason I am not drafting him is because he is white and I showed him this list, than yes, you would be correct.



nbanoitall said:


> Actually Morrison could score a lot more than 13 points a game in the league right now. He has "potiental" on both sides of the ball. Including D fense and rebounding. I think he will get even better at his rebounding


This is your opinion...which is cool.....and I have mine.


----------



## ralaw

My fault guys I forgot to add Adam Keefe (1992) to the list.


----------



## shookem

Can he play the 2 on the next level? will he be able to grab an NBA 2? Is he really a 3? he's rebounding # don't suggest that.


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## Jonathan Watters

ralaw said:


> Okay fine, if you want to add Miller and Nash to this list it is fine with me, however, the orginal argument was about white American *born * players who are picked in the top 15. Not white players who developed in the Amerian system! Even if you add Nash and Miller that still doesn't deny the fact that the players listed all peaked earlier. Actually, Brad Miller was more of an exception to the rule (regardless of race) considering he was a undrafted free agent. I'm trying to figure out why YOU seem to be interested in making this list seem to be what you call a "desired result".


You just don't get it, and you are turning this thread into somewhat of a farce. 

You are absolutely wrong about the original argument. The original argument is not about white players drafted in the top 15. This thread is about Adam Morrison, not about white players drafted in the top 15. You crafted the "white players in the top 15" criteria in an attempt to justify why you argue that Morrison shouldn't be a top pick. Your criteria conveniently eliminates perfectly good examples of white players that went through the same system as Morrison that have done exactly what you are trying to claim they can't. 

It is biased, selective reasoning at its finest. 

Your system also completely ignores the fact that years, 3,4, and 5 are likely prime years these days. You might have a chance to convince somebody if you cut it down to years 1 and 2, but of course, then you might not get the results you are looking for. 



> Okay fine, what is the truth? You are taking this list to personal! Not one time did I say white American born players weren't good in the NBA! Stop putting words in my mouth and assuming! I am simply pointing out a *possible* reason why white American born players get downgraded (which I have been saying the entire time).


You aren't saying it, but you are making arguments that you hope will say it for you. Meanwhile, you are in other threads on this board making the same arguments about other white players that don't come close to fitting the criteria. (not in the NBA, very much improved over the past year).



> I think you really need to go back and _re_read this thread! You are attempting to make it seem as if I am saying white Amerian born players aren't good NBA prospects which is far from the truth! I simply went through every white American born player picked in the top 15 from 1992-2000 (except for Bobby Hurley do to injury) and pointed out they all peaked early. If you disagree than *show* me why!


And does this criteria come close to fitting why Adam Morrison is no more than a top 15 pick? 

All I have done since I started posting on this thread again is tell you why your reasoning is bunk. Of course, there is no point in attempting to nail jello to the wall. As far as I am concerned, this ludicrous debate is now over.


----------



## ralaw

Jonathan Watters said:


> You just don't get it, and you are turning this thread into somewhat of a farce.
> 
> You are absolutely wrong about the original argument. The original argument is not about white players drafted in the top 15. This thread is about Adam Morrison, not about white players drafted in the top 15. You crafted the "white players in the top 15" criteria in an attempt to justify why you argue that Morrison shouldn't be a top pick.


The original thread topic is about Adam Morrison, but not this actual discussion. This discussion started when nbanoitall and tempe85 tried to say if Morrison was black or European he would be percieved to be "the next nba superstar" to which I responded with by telling them, "making hypthetical questions that can't be proven is usless and only leads to more racial anymosity." Show me where I specifically said, Morrison shoudn't be a top pick because of the "white players in the top 15 list"! You won't! I said way before that I felt he peaked as a player. You are trying to say I am using this list to downgrade white players which is far from the truth. The list was to show a possible reason as to why scouts downgrade white Amerian born players. In other words it is not my opinion, I was simply pointing out possibility. 



Jonathan Watters said:


> Your criteria conveniently eliminates perfectly good examples of white players that went through the same system as Morrison that have done exactly what you are trying to claim they can't.
> 
> It is biased, selective reasoning at its finest.


Oh really, how so, when I took *every* white American born player picked in the lottery since 1992? Again this discussion isn't about every single white player in the league! It isn't about overseas white players, it isn't about players from Canada. I already said I'll give you Nash and Miller even though they don't fit the criteria. BTW show me the good examples you are talking about outside of the players I listed. I gurantee you will be taking it back to the days of Bird, Price, Stockton. How is it bias when I took every white American born player picked in the top 15 since 1992? 



Jonathan Watters said:


> Your system also completely ignores the fact that years, 3,4, and 5 are likely prime years these days. You might have a chance to convince somebody if you cut it down to years 1 and 2, but of course, then you might not get the results you are looking for.


How so when players are coming into the league younger? Again, show me! You are making to many assumptions. I am not attempting to get any type of result. I am simply pointing out a fact to which you nor, nbanoitall have shown me to be otherwise factually.



Jonathan Watters said:


> You aren't saying it, but you are making arguments that you hope will say it for you. Meanwhile, you are in other threads on this board making the same arguments about other white players that don't come close to fitting the criteria. (not in the NBA, very much improved over the past year).


It's amazing how you think you know what I am saying. Trust me if I have something to say I would just say it! What are you talking about? *Show me * where I have singled out white players using the same arguement in other threads? Stop trying to fabricate things to validate your claim. 



Jonathan Watters said:


> And does this criteria come close to fitting why Adam Morrison is no more than a top 15 pick?


As I said, I was simply pointing out a reason as to why white American born players get downgraded when it comes to the draft. My opinion is Adam Morrison will be a top pick, Adam Morrison is the best player in the nation! However in my opinion he has peaked so what you see is what you get. That opinion is indendent of the list. 

This discussion from my point-of-view is about two *seperate/independent* topics which I think you and nbnoitall are having problems understanding. Them being, 

*1.* white American born players are downgraded, but why? So, I attempted to show a possible reason as to why they are downgraded with the list. If you disagree don't get mad at me, look at the scouts who are downgrading them. I am the only one in this thread who is trying to show a possible reason as to why white American born players are downgraded. 

*2.* In my opinion, Adam Morrison is a great college player who will be an average NBA player. This opinion has nothing to do with Morrison being white as you are trying to say I am saying. This opinion came from me watching him as a basketball player. 

If this discussion is no longer useful to you that is fine. I just wish you would show me some factual information as to why I am wrong other than simply telling me. Just because I disagree with you, I don't think that is reason to shut the discussion down. However, if that is what you want to do than the best thing might be to lock this thread and I will stay out of any furher discussion regarding Adam Morrison and my views on him.


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## zagsfan20

Ralaw you wasted all your time writing all this nonsense based on bunk logic.....


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## CrookedJ

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
My head hurts.


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## ralaw

zagsfan20 said:


> Ralaw you wasted all your time writing all this nonsense based on bunk logic.....


Again for the last time show me how it is "bunk". I am being told it is wrong, to show a possible reason as to why white American players are downgraded. I guess it would be better if I just said, "White American players are downgraded because they are white like nbanoitall and tempe85 said and left it at that, than maybe everyone would be happy. My fault for looking for a possible answer to the problem!

Adam Morrison is a great player who will be a contributer on the pro level! I'm sure you guys probably won't believe me, but I like Morrison as a basketball player, he is very smart, has a good shot, is active, plays with confidence and passion. I just have my opinions about his game. I am not saying my opinion is the truth, I'm just simply making my opinion as we all do on these boards. In the end they really don't matter.


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## pr0wler

ralaw you do make some good points, however you're not presenting your argument in a sound fasion. If you were to say that a good majority of top 15 white american born basketball players don't improve much from their ROOKIE year, then you might have a point. Many examples in recent years include: Mike Dunleavy, Chris Kaman, Joel Pryzbilla, Chris Mihm, Mike Miller, and Szczerbiak. 

The basic blueprint for top pick rookies is to start off averaging about 1 point per 3 minutes, then sophmores get around 1 point per 2.5 minutes, then finally in their third year (almost their peak) they're at about 1 point per 2 minutes. A steady improvement in FG%, rebounds, assists, etc, is usually demonstrated as well. Chris Bosh fit this mold perfectly. Mike Sweetney is following the same route. LeBron (although higher numbers than the outline) is following a similar the same path. This seems to be the case for most high-pick rookies. 

But for many of the white american top draft picks, they start the same. Maybe a solid beginning, then they pretty much peak right away. Maybe a slight increase in FG%, a few more points per game, but generally the same player as their 1st season or two. Not a drastic improvement. Dunleavy, M. Miller, Kaman, Mihm, Szczerbiak followed this to a tee. I could also list some african american players who did the same: Carmelo Anthony, Jarvis Hayes, Andre Iguodala, Josh Childress - but that's only equal to the amount of white players (there are many more black players in the NBA).

But to say that "Adam Morrison will not be a high draft pick because almost all top 15 white american born players peak within 3-5 years" is not valid, because almost EVERYONE peaks within that period of time. Carmelo Anthony has peaked already. Dwyane Wade pretty much has too: pretty much every player does. 

What I believe the point you're trying to make is that you believe Morrison will come into the NBA and start off as a solid 13 PPG scorer, but won't improve much after that. Sort of the same thing that happened to Wally Szczerbiak. I agree with you. I think from day one he'll step in as a solid player, but won't develop into anything past a 16-17 PPG player. A top 10 pick, probably, but he won't be scoring over 20 points per game. He probably will never be an all-star - something you should expect out of a top 3 pick.


----------



## ralaw

pr0wler said:


> ralaw you do make some good points, however you're not presenting your argument in a sound fasion. If you were to say that a good majority of top 15 white american born basketball players don't improve much from their ROOKIE year, then you might have a point. Many examples in recent years include: Mike Dunleavy, Chris Kaman, Joel Pryzbilla, Chris Mihm, Mike Miller, and Szczerbiak.


That was my point, but thanks for clarifying. My point was they all were good players, but they're ceiling was lower as compared to other players picked in their respective drafts.



pr0wler said:


> The basic blueprint for top pick rookies is to start off averaging about 1 point per 3 minutes, then sophmores get around 1 point per 2.5 minutes, then finally in their third year (almost their peak) they're at about 1 point per 2 minutes. A steady improvement in FG%, rebounds, assists, etc, is usually demonstrated as well. Chris Bosh fit this mold perfectly. Mike Sweetney is following the same route. LeBron (although higher numbers than the outline) is following a similar the same path. This seems to be the case for most high-pick rookies.


That makes sense. Thanks for that clarification as well. 



pr0wler said:


> But for many of the white american top draft picks, they start the same. Maybe a solid beginning, then they pretty much peak right away. Maybe a slight increase in FG%, a few more points per game, but generally the same player as their 1st season or two. Not a drastic improvement. Dunleavy, M. Miller, Kaman, Mihm, Szczerbiak followed this to a tee. I could also list some african american players who did the same: Carmelo Anthony, Jarvis Hayes, Andre Iguodala, Josh Childress - but that's only equal to the amount of white players (there are many more black players in the NBA).


I agree with you that there are black players who have peaked as well (due to the black/white player ratio more). I would also add, Ben Gordon, Chris Wilcox, Drew Gooden, Kenyon Martin, Jamal Crawford, DeSagna Diop, etc. to the list which could go on and on.



pr0wler said:


> But to say that "Adam Morrison will not be a high draft pick because almost all top 15 white american born players peak within 3-5 years" is not valid, because almost EVERYONE peaks within that period of time. Carmelo Anthony has peaked already. Dwyane Wade pretty much has too: pretty much every player does.


I agree most of the players do, but would you say black players ceiling is higher? The point of making a list was to get a discussion as to why white american born players get downgraded, rather than simply saying it, and leaving it like that with no reasoning as to why.



pr0wler said:


> What I believe the point you're trying to make is that you believe Morrison will come into the NBA and start off as a solid 13 PPG scorer, but won't improve much after that. Sort of the same thing that happened to Wally Szczerbiak. I agree with you. I think from day one he'll step in as a solid player, but won't develop into anything past a 16-17 PPG player. A top 10 pick, probably, but he won't be scoring over 20 points per game. He probably will never be an all-star - something you should expect out of a top 3 pick.


Thanks pr0wler for explaining it in this way you have been really helpful. I think the problem people are having is less to do with basketball and more to do with people's unwillingness to want to deal with racial issues and differences. People were making it seem as if I am saying all white american born players are busts who won't make it in the league, which would be absolutly foolish to say, I have a friend right now who is white, who typically when we go to the court he is the best player on it (behind me off course.. :biggrin. There also isn't anything wrong with peaking early, it's just a fact when talking in basketball terms. The only difference is some players have a higher peak level which defines bench players, role players, stars and superstars in the professional sports.

I can agree with your assessment of Morrisons as well. He is a great player, but I don't think he will be a frachise changing type player many are trying to make him out to be, which is something you should expect from top 5 pick. I would love to have him as my 2nd or 3rd option though!


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## 18to88

SHEED! said:


> I watched first half. I dont really follow college bball but *this kid impressed me*


SHEED!
BasketballBoards Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2005
*Age: 14*


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## Jonathan Watters

pr0wler said:


> But to say that "Adam Morrison will not be a high draft pick because almost all top 15 white american born players peak within 3-5 years" is not valid, because almost EVERYONE peaks within that period of time. Carmelo Anthony has peaked already. Dwyane Wade pretty much has too: pretty much every player does.


This is the point I have been making since my first post disagreeing with ralaw's list. But it takes somebody else to say it before he acknowledges it...

Whatever, I guess...



ralaw said:


> I agree most of the players do, but would you say black players ceiling is higher? The point of making a list was to get a discussion as to why white american born players get downgraded, rather than simply saying it, and leaving it like that with no reasoning as to why.


I would also like to add that your list does nothing to show why white players get downgraded. If white players drafted in the lottery can't develop and they are still getting drafted in the lottery, it shows that they are getting upgraded by GM's, not downgraded. This actually helps your case, but if I have to make your point for you, so be it...


----------



## ralaw

Jonathan Watters said:


> I would also like to add that your list does nothing to show why white players get downgraded. If white players drafted in the lottery can't develop and they are still getting drafted in the lottery, it shows that they are getting upgraded by GM's, not downgraded. This actually helps your case, but if I have to make your point for you, so be it...


They get downgraded by because they aren't getting the same respect that black and European players get when it comes to using the word "potential". This is why if you look in the draft you always here scouts and GM's talking the "next europoean superstar" when all actuality there really only has been 1 major superstar in Dirk Nowitzki and lesser "stars" in Peja and Manu.


----------



## pr0wler

ralaw said:


> They get downgraded by because they aren't getting the same respect that black and European players get when it comes to using the word "potential". This is why if you look in the draft you always here scouts and GM's talking the "next europoean superstar" when all actuality there really only has been 1 major superstar in Dirk Nowitzki and lesser "stars" in Peja and Manu.


Agreed. Most people will believe that Morrison will be a solid NBA player, a nice 2nd or 3rd option as you said. He will get downgraded because people don't believe he has the potential to be an all-star or #1 option. Now if a black player was averaging 27 points per game, and had improved every year since his freshman season, he would be seen as the next hot thing. He would easily be the #1 pick? How could you argue against that? He would be predicted to be an all-star for years to come, and GM's would see him with loads of potential. And there are a lot of examples to support that claim. But I think it's obvious that most ppl don't believe Morrison will be a 20 - 25 PPG scorer in the league, as every other white player who has had his success has only become a solid 16 - 17 PPG player in the league. Not that theres anything wrong with that, but a Top 3 pick should be an elite layer, not a team's third option. 

And it's not fair to use Nowitzki, Gasol, Ginobili etc. in the argument as they are not american born. I think they would all be Top 5 picks, they're all around all-star calibre. Top 5 picks don't necessarily have to be a franchise player, but these three guys are defintely elite players in the league (that's all you can expect). I think that in general, the potential for WHITE players is pretty much just as good as black players, but for some reason, caucausian players raised in the american basketball system don't seem to have a very high ceiling.


----------



## shookem

So if the draft was today when do you think he would be taken?


----------



## ralaw

pr0wler said:


> I think that in general, the potential for WHITE players is pretty much just as good as black players, but for some reason, caucausian players raised in the american basketball system don't seem to have a very high ceiling.


I can agree with that! I'm just wondering why? I personally believe it has something to do with what their predecessors have done, whether that is right or wrong I really don't know, but the truth is it is happening.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

pr0wler said:


> Agreed. Most people will believe that Morrison will be a solid NBA player, a nice 2nd or 3rd option as you said. He will get downgraded because people don't believe he has the potential to be an all-star or #1 option. Now if a black player was averaging 27 points per game, and had improved every year since his freshman season, he would be seen as the next hot thing. He would easily be the #1 pick? How could you argue against that? He would be predicted to be an all-star for years to come, and GM's would see him with loads of potential. And there are a lot of examples to support that claim. But I think it's obvious that most ppl don't believe Morrison will be a 20 - 25 PPG scorer in the league, as every other white player who has had his success has only become a solid 16 - 17 PPG player in the league. Not that theres anything wrong with that, but a Top 3 pick should be an elite layer, not a team's third option.
> 
> And it's not fair to use Nowitzki, Gasol, Ginobili etc. in the argument as they are not american born. I think they would all be Top 5 picks, they're all around all-star calibre. Top 5 picks don't necessarily have to be a franchise player, but these three guys are defintely elite players in the league (that's all you can expect). I think that in general, the potential for WHITE players is pretty much just as good as black players, but for some reason, caucausian players raised in the american basketball system don't seem to have a very high ceiling.


Now, after 100+ posts, we can _finally_ get down to the real issues. 

To me, potential and ceiling are synonymous.

You are right that Morrison's lack of athleticism is going to hurt his upside in the NBA. It isn't because he is white, it is because he isn't athletic. Players like Nash, Miller, and Szczerbiak have developed the necessary athleticism to be very nice players in the NBA. I think Morrison can improve (I should say has improved, quite a bit, over the past 2+ years), but will always be a step slow. 

But the reality with Morrison is that he doesn't need to have speed to create his shot in the NBA. He can create from anywhere, as he is just as comfortable putting up a contorted, fully extended fadeaway from fifteen feet with a man in his face as he is popping the open, spot up three ball. To me, he has enough athleticism where he will be able to utilize this skill in the NBA. In the end, even in the league, you still have to put a guy in front of and behind Morrison to keep him from scoring. 

The other issue to look when deciding whether Morrison is a top 3 pick or not is specificially this year's draft. I agree LaMarcus Aldridge is going to go ahead of him, but I'm not sure that any other player has established himself as a guy that can go in and score the 16-17 ppg that Morrison could be putting up right now in the NBA. Rudy Gay might get there, but it is no guarantee. He is going to have to prove that he can effectively play SF before anybody takes him in the top five. 

I really don't see anybody else in the 2006 draft with that star-type of upside that Morrison lacks. Rodney Carney could be a nice player at the next level, but I really question whether he could ever be an all-star. He still settles for the jumper way too often, but isn't polished, and will be nothing more than a slashing type at the NBA level. Ronnie Brewer is a solid all-around player, but has no higher upside than the level that Morrison is already playing at. 

You have guys like LeBron, Carmelo, Dwayne Wade, Dwight Howard, Greg Oden, LaMarcus Aldridge, and a few others that would always be drafted ahead of Morrison. They are very likely all-stars very quickly. Morrison is about as much as you could ask for in that next group of players, and players out of that group are taken in the top 5 every single year.


----------



## zagsfan20

This thread is rediculous......To clump all players together as having the same potential because of their race is absurd....There is always firsts and there's always exceptions...Morrison so far has defied odds, nothing makes me think he won't defy more odds in the league...


----------



## ralaw

I think Morrison has the ability to get his shot off and penetrate in the NBA. In college he has shown the ability to dominate games just with his basketball IQ and skills. He understands basketball angles and space. He has a high shot release similar to Larry Bird which makes it hard for defenders infront of him to block or make him adjust his shot, regardless of their athleticisim. His style of play (running of picks and screens) to get open is a plus, because he will contribute without dominting the ball, similar to Rip Hamilton and Reggie Miller. 

If he continues to play at this level and also does it while leading his team through the March Madness, I think he will be a top 3-5 pick depending on who is drafting. IMHO, he will definitely be picked behind, Aldridge and Gay and possibly Andrea Bargnani. 



Jonathan Watters said:


> You have guys like LeBron, Carmelo, Dwayne Wade, Dwight Howard, Greg Oden, LaMarcus Aldridge, and a few others that would always be drafted ahead of Morrison. They are very likely all-stars very quickly. Morrison is about as much as you could ask for in that next group of players, and players out of that group are taken in the top 5 every single year.


I agree, this draft has no clear-cut franchise type player, so this will help Morrison.


----------



## ralaw

zagsfan20 said:


> This thread is rediculous......To clump all players together as having the same potential because of their race is absurd....There is always firsts and there's always exceptions...Morrison so far has defied odds, nothing makes me think he won't defy more odds in the league...


I am not the one clumping them! The scouts and GM's are the one's doing it! I agree there are always exceptions, but if you believe there isn't a problem than exceptions really aren't relevant. What odds has he defied? Wasn't this level of play expected considering he was a pre-season All American?


----------



## Jonathan Watters

ralaw said:


> I am not the one clumping them! The scouts and GM's are the one's doing it! I agree there are always exceptions, but if you believe there isn't a problem than exceptions really aren't relevant. What odds has he defied? Wasn't this level of play expected considering he was a pre-season All American?


Come on, now. The guy was unrecruited out of high school, and has diabetes. How in the world is that not defying the odds? 

As for expectations, do you think Morrison has played like your normal all-american? Or perhaps his 27 ppg is a bit more than that. I expected this out of Morrison, but I might be a bit different considering I thought he was the best player in college basketball last year, and was fully expecting him to average close to 30 ppg this year.


----------



## zagsfan20

ralaw said:


> I am not the one clumping them! The scouts and GM's are the one's doing it! I agree there are always exceptions, but if you believe there isn't a problem than exceptions really aren't relevant. What odds has he defied? Wasn't this level of play expected considering he was a pre-season All American?


Gonzaga was the only D1 school that recruited him...He was only 6'4" as a senior in High School, who has catapulted himself into the most explosive offensive player in college basketball.....He has diabetes and has to inject himself during the game, can you name any lottery pick who has had to do that?...He is a preseason All-American out of a small school in Spokane...He plays with more heart and competitiveness than I have seen anyone ever play with....

Without a doubt I think he will be a star in the league...Its not because he's white or black or purple, its because he's a great basketball player with heart and that matters more than athletic ability and the color of your skin.....


----------



## ralaw

Jonathan Watters said:


> Come on, now. The guy was unrecruited out of high school, and has diabetes. How in the world is that not defying the odds?
> 
> As for expectations, do you think Morrison has played like your normal all-american? Or perhaps his 27 ppg is a bit more than that. I expected this out of Morrison, but I might be a bit different considering I thought he was the best player in college basketball last year, and was fully expecting him to average close to 30 ppg this year.


My fault, I totally forgot he was a diabetic. Yes, those are great odds to overcome, but he won't be the first (see Chris Dudley). As for your question, No, I believe Morrison has played above All-American status if that is possible. His peformance in Maui was outstanding and he definitly out played everyone else including everyone's pre-season player of the year favorite Rudy Gay.


----------



## ralaw

zagsfan20 said:


> ...He plays with more heart and competitiveness than I have seen anyone ever play with..


Wow! Thats a bold statement! I would say he is up there, but putting him ahead of guys like, Jordan, Bird, KG, etc...is bold!


----------



## zagsfan20

ralaw said:


> Wow! Thats a bold statement! I would say he is up there, but putting him ahead of guys like, Jordan, Bird, KG, etc...is bold!


I've seen every single game he's played in college and without a doubt, he's just as fiery and competitive as those guys....


----------



## zagsfan20

ralaw said:


> My fault, I totally forgot he was a diabetic. Yes, those are great odds to overcome, but he won't be the first (see Chris Dudley). As for your question, No, I believe Morrison has played above All-American status if that is possible. His peformance in Maui was outstanding and he definitly out played everyone else including everyone's pre-season player of the year favorite Rudy Gay.


Chris Dudley was a one dimensional rebounder who never played a legitimate amount of playing time...Adam's a star who is always on the floor and is the heart of his team....


I'm not sure where you're from, but how much coverage do you get of Adam?


----------



## shookem

zagsfan20 said:


> I'm not sure where you're from, but how much coverage do you get of Adam?


I know you weren't asking me, but I get none, or very little. 
As somebody who seems to know a lot about this player, what position do you feel Morrison will play the most effectively. Is he going to be a multi-positional player? And if you were to look at the bottom NBA teams today, which team do you think Adam would be most suited for?

From the pages upon pages of stuff I've read on him and the few minutes of highlight tapes (plus a good 2 or 3 games last year), I think he can be a solid 1/2 scoring option on the right NBA team. I don't care what colour he is. Obviously my interest in peaked because I'm a Raptors fan and the team will probably have a top five pick. 

Look at this review from 2004, 

Weaknesses: Not especially gifted athletically ... Stiff legs, has the legs of a 40 year old ... When he runs the floor he lacks great speed and fluidity ... Better hand speed than foot speed ... His lack of foot speed makes getting around opponents difficult ... Does not get off the floor quickly or with much elevation ... Plays hard on defense but lacks great lateral quickness ... Lack of a great first step will make it harder to get shots off against superior athletes ...
-Aran Smith 12/28/04

What has he done to improve in this areas since then?

Also it looks like he has improved he's three point shooting, he's been 50% or better in the last three games, he he turned the corner on this part of his game?

How is his passing ability? He doesn't get too many assists?

Anybody he sees him play, whaddya think?


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Anybody else watching Gonzaga/Washington? The announcers clearly hadn't seen much of Morrison, and couldn't believe what they were seeing on Morrison's first four buckets or so. After that, they seemed to accept the reality of Morrison's greatness. 

Nearly every single one of Morrison's perimeter makes in the first half would get the average player benched. He is toying with the Washington defense, and is an absolute joy to watch.


----------



## TM

JW :makeout: Morrison  :laugh:


----------



## HeinzGuderian

He has a very good sense of where he needs to be and doesn't stop working until he gets there. Very smart scorer. High release on his shot too, so he doesn't need great elevation to get his shot off.


----------



## zagsfan20

People your seeing a great one when you watch Gonzaga basketball.....


----------



## Nimreitz

Hmmm.... 1/8 on Three Pointers. I didn't see the game so I'll judge based on stats only, poor shot selection?


----------



## HKF

Nimreitz said:


> Hmmm.... 1/8 on Three Pointers. I didn't see the game so I'll judge based on stats only, poor shot selection?


No he was fantastic, but too bad no one other than Batista showed up. Washington plays basketball on roller skates, I swear.


----------



## zagsfan20

HKF said:


> No he was fantastic, but too bad no one other than Batista showed up. Washington plays basketball on roller skates, I swear.


Raivio was injured and everyone else did dirty work.....Anybody who saw the game that isn't UW biased would admit that with a lot of breaks and some luck UW pulled that one out....

With that said I will give to them, their first win in 8 years.....

I think UW will win the Pac-10....


----------



## alex

Many people here are confusing "peaking" ability-wise with "peaking" statistically. These two terms are often exchanged haphazardly, but, they are faaaar from the same thing.

Most players that go to college (black or white) for two or more years peak statistically after about two seasons, but they keep improving, ie they become more efficient, improve their jumper, ballhandling, etc. Heck, Michael Jordan averaged 28 ppg his rookie season as a 21-22 year old, which is what he averaged as a 35-36 year old. Most people are gunna say that the older MJ was the better overall player, despite the statistical deadlock. 

Another example is Tim Duncan, who as a rookie is averaging about what he's averaging now, but he's clearly better this season. In fact, Duncan today is almost definately better than his statistical peak, when he averaged 25.5 ppg 12 rpg. Rarely does a statistical peak coincide with an "ability-peak." 

Anyhow, I think Morrison will be a fine NBA player, although he might wind up being somewhat of a tweener (not quick enough for shooting guard, not strong enough for small forward). He might average 20 ppg as a rookie, and never much more, but he'll certainly not not improve. On a semi-sidenote , he definately has the unkown quality X, that many call "it".


----------



## rainman

surprisingly(or maybe not)morrison seems to do better against better players, he was closely watched by brandon roy and bobby jones all night but it really didnt matter, i thought right at the end he tired a little but the kid carried the team on his back for the entire game so i think the faithful would forgive his last coulple of attempts. personally i will hate to see him leave GU, i only hope he goes to a team where he will be the 1st or 2nd option on the floor and not be some role player that people say underachieved. as for the zags they're running on fumes right now. they had hope to get production from knight,heytvelt and raivio to the tune of about 30 pts a night, they havent been able to replace that and it was evident last night. if not for morrison's heroics they get blown out of the gym.


----------



## JNice

..

He runs funny. And not like funny ha-ha.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.


----------



## ralaw

JNice said:


> ..
> 
> He runs funny. And not like funny ha-ha.
> 
> Just thought I'd throw that out there.


He also has a porn mustache, but who's watching? He is a great player, who is tearing it up.


----------



## compsciguy78

Adam Morrsion looks good in Zagland now, but wait till he gets to the next level.



Dan Dickau was supposed to be something and looked what happened to him. He sucks donkey balls and can't even hit a three pointer. If Morrison can't shoot college 3 pointers, he will suffer in the NBA.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

compsciguy78 said:


> Adam Morrsion looks good in Zagland now, but wait till he gets to the next level.
> 
> 
> 
> Dan Dickau was supposed to be something and looked what happened to him. He sucks donkey balls and can't even hit a three pointer. If Morrison can't shoot college 3 pointers, he will suffer in the NBA.



Dickau wasn't actually highly touted very much at all. Where did he go in the draft?


----------



## shookem

SkywalkerAC said:


> Dickau wasn't actually highly touted very much at all. Where did he go in the draft?


He went 28th overall. Nowhere near the top five.


----------



## compsciguy78

SkywalkerAC said:


> Dickau wasn't actually highly touted very much at all. Where did he go in the draft?


Dickau was an All-American and was compared to Mark Price by Craig Ehlo, who was doing scouting I believe. The guy was considered Gonzaga's prince and savior for a few years and the same thing with Blake Stepp and now Adam Morrison. 

I have been following Gonzaga basketball and I like Adam Morrison, the guy is slow and can score. The reason he might succeed is because of his height, but other than that he doesn't have much more than Dickau or Stepp. Stepp actually had better handles and was a better shooter. If I was an NBA team I wouldn't take him in the lottery unless this year really sucks.


----------



## zagsfan20

compsciguy78 said:


> Dickau was an All-American and was compared to Mark Price by Craig Ehlo, who was doing scouting I believe. The guy was considered Gonzaga's prince and savior for a few years and the same thing with Blake Stepp and now Adam Morrison.
> 
> I have been following Gonzaga basketball and I like Adam Morrison, the guy is slow and can score. The reason he might succeed is because of his height, but other than that he doesn't have much more than Dickau or Stepp. Stepp actually had better handles and was a better shooter. If I was an NBA team I wouldn't take him in the lottery unless this year really sucks.


Dickau or Stepp never played too well against big time teams like what Morrison has been doing the past couple years.....Dickau and Blake were primarily getting their numbers against weaker WCC opponents....Meanwhile, Adam has been scoring averaging 30 points a game against some of the nations best defensive wings....Its rediculous to compare them...If you've watched the games, the opposite coaches have been throwing everything they got at him with double and triple teams and he's still lighting them up.....He's the best offensive college player I've seen since Glenn Robinson when he was at Purdue....


His competitiveness and edge is what I think makes him an All-Star at the next level....




> Stepp actually had better handles and was a better shooter.


Stepp and Dickau were also point guards, something Adam is not....He's 6'8" and brings the ball up just as well as a lot of point guards....


----------



## RSP83

Wow... :laugh: When I started this thread I never thought it would end being a 10 thread page. But, Morrison is an interesting player, he's kinda unique that he has weaknesses that are visible but he keeps coming with big game.

I'd say he's going to be fine in the league. I can see him becoming a 20 point scorer. You guys say he's not athletic enough, or not quick enough to score in the NBA, but he already showed that he's able to score without much problem against some of the most athletic college team like UW, Michigan State, Maryland, and UConn. He just know how to score. He can hit the mid range J, the 3 shot, slash to the basket. I really don't worry too much about him being able to score in the league or not. I'm not going to overrate him, I'm just going to say he's an NBA player. He's a lottery pick.

One more thing I want to say about Adam Morrison. He reminds me a lot of Glenn "Big Dog" Robinson when he was still playing for Purdue. Some people say Carmelo play like Big Dog, but I think Adam Morrison is the one that is more similar to Big Dog. I've seen Big Dog play during his Purdue year, he's such a dominant scorer and like Morrison, Big Dog was not that athletic. But he's a very talented scorer. In the NBA, he never become as good of a scorer he was in college. That's probably because he was not athletic and quick enough. But, he's a very talented scorer, he knows he can't outpaced or outjump his opponents, so he develop that deadly jumpshot. I think Morrison can learn a lot from Glenn Robinson.


----------



## compsciguy78

zagsfan20 said:


> Dickau or Stepp never played too well against big time teams like what Morrison has been doing the past couple years.....


Stepp choked in big games, especially that Arizona overtime thriller. He had so many wide open looks but couldn't knock them down.




> Dickau and Blake were primarily getting their numbers against weaker WCC opponents....Meanwhile, Adam has been scoring averaging 30 points a game against some of the nations best defensive wings....Its rediculous to compare them...If you've watched the games, the opposite coaches have been throwing everything they got at him with double and triple teams and he's still lighting them up.....He's the best offensive college player I've seen since Glenn Robinson when he was at Purdue....


Dickau and Blake play the same teams Morrison does during the year. Stepp played against WAshington when he was there if I remember right. They also played in the Maui tournament too. Stepp was better than Dickau IMO and Morrison can easily be compared to those guys because he comes from the same program and has the same weaknesses. Slow and basically a good shooter. You have to realize that at the college level you can look really good just because you are a good shooter. Dickau was an All-American and he sucks in the NBA, too slow.




> His competitiveness and edge is what I think makes him an All-Star at the next level....


You have dillusions of grandeur. Morrison will make the league but will be relegated to being Kyle Korver, which isn't bad. Kyle Korver is actually a better pure shooter, whereas Morrison is a better scorer.




> Stepp and Dickau were also point guards, something Adam is not....He's 6'8" and brings the ball up just as well as a lot of point guards....


Homeboy can barely dribble the ball, let's be realistic. Ravio has some decent handles, but Morrison can barely playmake, lets be realistic.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

compsciguy78 said:


> Homeboy can barely dribble the ball, let's be realistic. Ravio has some decent handles, but Morrison can barely playmake, lets be realistic.


I suspected this before, but now I know for sure. Just be honest and admit you haven't seen Morrison play this year. 

He is one of the best playmakers in the country, regardless of position.


----------



## zagsfan20

Complete opposite players...Their games are nothing like each others....One's 6'8" the others are 6'2".....It funny how people make comparisons because their both white...


----------



## compsciguy78

Jonathan Watters said:


> I suspected this before, but now I know for sure. Just be honest and admit you haven't seen Morrison play this year.
> 
> He is one of the best playmakers in the country, regardless of position.


He can score, he can't playmake that good.


----------



## compsciguy78

zagsfan20 said:


> Complete opposite players...Their games are nothing like each others....One's 6'8" the others are 6'2".....It funny how people make comparisons because their both white...


Dickau was 6'0" and Stepp was 6'4". I make comparisons because they both come from the same system of basketball and all 3 are products of Mark Few's system of team play. Dickau looked good, Stepp looked good, and so does Morrison. Wait till Morrison gets to the NBA, he will be relegated to being a decent 6th man at best, nowhere near an all-star.


----------



## TM

that's not true


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Dan Dickau and Blake Stepp didn't have entire defenses set up to stop just them, and never were double teamed even when they didn't have the ball. Even so, Dickau and Stepp never scored 43 points twice in a four game span. 



compsciguy78 said:


> He can score, he can't playmake that good.


You haven't seen Adam Morrison play this season...if you had, you wouldn't make such a foolish statements.


----------



## compsciguy78

Jonathan Watters said:


> Dan Dickau and Blake Stepp didn't have entire defenses set up to stop just them, and never were double teamed even when they didn't have the ball. Even so, Dickau and Stepp never scored 43 points twice in a four game span.
> 
> 
> 
> You haven't seen Adam Morrison play this season...if you had, you wouldn't make such a foolish statements.


I have seen him play, he looks as slow as last year. He can shoot the ball from 15 feet, but it's easy when you are 6'8" and going against the defenses he has. He is being grossly overrated.

I will give it to him, he has scored 43 points twice now, which Dickau and Stepp never did. I never said he wasn't a better prospect than both of those guys. I would take him mid-bottom of the first round. He can't handle better than those guys and the only thing he has on them is height, which means a lot, but he still is slow as molasses. 

Dickau had it the easiest because he was coming up when Gonzaga was still a cinderlla team. Morrison now expects to have tough opponents with good pressure but he still is going to be a hack on the pro level. He is too slow and slowness curses Kyle Korver, Wally Z, Dan Dickau, and every slow as molasses shooter. If you aren't quick enough to get your shot off then you are going to suffer in the NBA. Unless you have a good team which helps you work off picks and other stuff but good luck with that.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

So basically you decided rehash the same arguments that had already been made on the first page of this thread. The idea of Morrison being a spot-up shooter in the NBA just doesn't make sense. He's a better off the dribble shooter in the first place. Secondly, he doesn't use quickness to beat people right now - what makes you think he needs quickness to do it in the NBA? Adam Morrison, is nothing - I repeat, nothing - like Kyle Kover, except for the fact that he is white.


----------



## zagsfan20

Jonathan Watters said:


> So basically you decided rehash the same arguments that had already been made on the first page of this thread. The idea of Morrison being a spot-up shooter in the NBA just doesn't make sense. He's a better off the dribble shooter in the first place. Secondly, he doesn't use quickness to beat people right now - what makes you think he needs quickness to do it in the NBA? Adam Morrison, is nothing - I repeat, nothing - like Kyle Kover, except for the fact that he is white.


Exactly!......Everybody who obviously hasn't seen him play says that Adam is a spot-up shooter....He's far from it..He gets most of his points off of the dribble with his little floater and also is great in transition.....He is the complete opposite of Korver, except for the fact that they are both white, small school guys with the same build.....

I'm glad finally someone on these boards knows what they're talking about with Adam....


----------



## compsciguy78

Jonathan Watters said:


> So basically you decided rehash the same arguments that had already been made on the first page of this thread. The idea of Morrison being a spot-up shooter in the NBA just doesn't make sense. He's a better off the dribble shooter in the first place. Secondly, he doesn't use quickness to beat people right now - what makes you think he needs quickness to do it in the NBA? Adam Morrison, is nothing - I repeat, nothing - like Kyle Kover, except for the fact that he is white.


I wouldn't say he is nothing like Kyle Korver because they are both around the same height, both shooters, both are slow, both are average ballhandlers. Kyle Korver used to dribble penetrate and pull up, maybe not as good as Morrison, but he used to do it. To say they are nothing alike is wrong. I just listed four similarities.

The reason quickness is more important in the NBA is because the players are more athletic, bigger, longer and everything in between.


----------



## compsciguy78

He is more like Wally Z then Korver, but Wally Z is better than Morrison.


----------



## xman

Difference between those two is competetive fire, Wally has skills but he is just not the competetor that Morrision is. Adam has that dare to be great arogance about him, if you watch him play for half a second you can't miss it, Wally has never had that type of fire. Morison has upside because he is still not the shooter he will ultimitly become with his work ethic. He has a good handle and 6'9" can cause match up problems at the SG when you post him up against smaller guards. Morrison might not be the quickest cat out there but he does have strength and height especially for a SG.


----------



## rainman

compsciguy78 said:


> He is more like Wally Z then Korver, but Wally Z is better than Morrison.


morrison is better than wally, i think wally gets a bit of a bad rap, he's actually a good nba player, where the differance lies is adam can create his shot a lot better and also create for others better, whereas wally is at the end of most passes. i think morrison will be in the rip hamilton reggie miller class in that he works hard off of screens to get open looks.


----------



## xman

This article mentions how he put up 43 against Brandon Roy and Bobby Jones.
http://draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1135

Bobby Jones is a very athletic long and a tenicious defender with NBA quality and yet Morrison put up 43 points on him despite having to create his own shot and handle the ball more than he is use to with Ravio out of the game. The fact is Adam Morrison won't just be happy to be there when he gets to the NBA like some of the other white guys you people keep comparing him to, there is a difference and I guess it is his will power and focuss. It doesn't matter though, the detractors will say what they say, the Morrison fans will just repeat the truth and nothing will get acomplished, this argument will be proven soon enough though. Which brings me to a good question, is he gone after this season or does he stay one more year? Also I like the way the scout doesn't feel like he can only compare Morrison to other white guys, what a concept.


----------



## AZwildcats4

compsciguy78 said:


> I wouldn't say he is nothing like Kyle Korver because they are both around the same height, both shooters, both are slow, both are average ballhandlers. Kyle Korver used to dribble penetrate and pull up, maybe not as good as Morrison, but he used to do it. To say they are nothing alike is wrong. I just listed four similarities.
> 
> The reason quickness is more important in the NBA is because the players are more athletic, bigger, longer and everything in between.



Korver is a the definition of a spot up shooter. He stands around behind the three point line waiting for the ball. This is all he does. Morrison on the other hand gets most of his points taking his man off the dribble. Hell Morrison doesn't even make a very high percentage of his 3 point shots. Two completely different players. Horrible comparison. End of story.


----------



## HKF

AZwildcats4 said:


> Korver is a the definition of a spot up shooter. He stands around behind the three point line waiting for the ball. This is all he does. Morrison on the other hand gets most of his points taking his man off the dribble. Hell Morrison doesn't even make a very high percentage of his 3 point shots. Two completely different players. Horrible comparison. End of story.


Just to be clear, Korver was not a spot up shooter at Creighton. I watched his entire career since I went to an MVC school. It's just that he looks slow compared to NBA athletes. He was very adept at going off the dribble and slashing, but the pros took that away.

Same with Luke Jackson, Ron Mercerr and a ton of other college studs.


----------



## AZwildcats4

HKF said:


> Just to be clear, Korver was not a spot up shooter at Creighton. I watched his entire career since I went to an MVC school. It's just that he looks slow compared to NBA athletes. He was very adept at going off the dribble and slashing, but the pros took that away.
> 
> Same with Luke Jackson, Ron Mercerr and a ton of other college studs.


I don't know if I would say adept, but yes he did a little of that in college.

Even if Morrison tried he couldn't be just a one dimensional spot up shooter. He's not that kind of player. He isn't a pure shooter like Korver is.

I think the fact is is that there really isn't a good comparison for the guy. He really is quite a unique player.


----------



## zagsfan20

AZwildcats4 said:


> I don't know if I would say adept, but yes he did a little of that in college.
> 
> Even if Morrison tried he couldn't be just a one dimensional spot up shooter. He's not that kind of player. He isn't a pure shooter like Korver is.
> 
> I think the fact is is that there really isn't a good comparison for the guy. He really is quite a unique player.


The best comparison I can think of is the footage I've seen of Alex English...


----------



## compsciguy78

HKF said:


> Just to be clear, Korver was not a spot up shooter at Creighton. I watched his entire career since I went to an MVC school. It's just that he looks slow compared to NBA athletes. He was very adept at going off the dribble and slashing, but the pros took that away.
> 
> Same with Luke Jackson, Ron Mercerr and a ton of other college studs.


This is exactly right. 
Luke Jackson was a better slasher then Morrison too and a better ball-handler. I think Jackson can still create in the NBA but he hasn't played too much.


----------



## compsciguy78

So everyone is saying Morrison is better than Wally. This means you think Morrison is going to be an all-star? This is what zagsfan said earlier. I can't wait to see Morrison become an all-star. I doubt it will ever happen.


----------



## compsciguy78

AZwildcats4 said:


> I don't know if I would say adept, but yes he did a little of that in college.
> 
> Even if Morrison tried he couldn't be just a one dimensional spot up shooter. He's not that kind of player. He isn't a pure shooter like Korver is.
> 
> I think the fact is is that there really isn't a good comparison for the guy. He really is quite a unique player.


A lot of guys can create off the dribble in college, thats the point being made. Once you get to the pro's the guys are faster and negates a lot of the game the person had. Korver wasn't a spot up shooter in college, he was a scorer. You rarely see anyone who is strictly a spot up shooter until you get to the NBA level and then you find your niche. 


Albeit Korver is slower than Morrison, Morrison will have a harder time getting those same shots in the NBA. Also, there is no way Morrison will play SG in the NBA!!! The guy will play SF almost extensively and will be a liability on defense. It just depends on how good his offense is and I don't think most NBA teams will give him 20 shots per night. It's hard enough giving Wally 20 shots per night and he has proven he can score when given the ball.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HKF said:


> Just to be clear, Korver was not a spot up shooter at Creighton. I watched his entire career since I went to an MVC school. It's just that he looks slow compared to NBA athletes. He was very adept at going off the dribble and slashing, but the pros took that away.
> 
> Same with Luke Jackson, Ron Mercerr and a ton of other college studs.


Ron Mercer absolutely could create his own shot at the NBA level. That was never his problem. 

And yes, Korver could do more than shoot at the college level. Every player that ends up in the NBA can. But compared to Morrison? Not even remotely close. A defense could take actually take Korver out of his game in the NCAA.

People just don't seem to get that Morrison is the most undefendable player that college basketball has seen in at least the last five years. He doesn't need to be quicker than his opponent to create his shot at the NCAA level, and he won't at the NBA level either.


----------



## HKF

How can you honestly say that he's the most undefendable player in the last five years, when he's not more talented than Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade and Jason (jay) Williams. I mean let's be real here. He's not the most unedefendable player in the last five years. He may put up great scoring numbers, but Gonzaga has no one else worth a salt anyway.


----------



## zagsfan20

HKF said:


> How can you honestly say that he's the most undefendable player in the last five years, when he's not more talented than Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade and Jason (jay) Williams. I mean let's be real here. He's not the most unedefendable player in the last five years. He may put up great scoring numbers, but Gonzaga has no one else worth a salt anyway.


Haha watch Gonzaga and then come back, please....

Batista averages 20 a game and over 10 boards and Raivio was averages 14 a game....Mallon and Pendergraft are solid players as well and Pargo and Heytvelt are tremendous freshman....

Some people make ludicrous statements on this board, when obviously they haven't seen them play or they wouldn't be making those statements.....


BTW, Jim Calhoun was interviewed during the Maui Invitational and he said that Morrison was the best offensive player he's faced since Carmelo....


----------



## HKF

Raivio is hurt, Batista isn't a future pro and mentioning Pendergraft and Mallon means what? 

Just because they committed to Gonzaga when they were like sophs in HS doesn't mean anything. I don't care what Jim Calhoun said. He's the best since he faced Carmelo which was three years ago, but he never faced Wade or Jay Will either. 

I am not denigrating Morrison in anyway, but there were guys just as good as he was in the past few years. Just because we have short memories doesn't mean it isn't true.

I remember people telling me Luke Jackson would be great and he isn't worth squat on the pro level but a bench player.


----------



## tempe85

Morrison just won the game today with two defenders in his face. He did it without Raivio or Knight (the WCC defensive player of the year last season). 

This guy is for real. People who think otherwise haven't seen him play.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HKF said:


> How can you honestly say that he's the most undefendable player in the last five years, when he's not more talented than Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade and Jason (jay) Williams. I mean let's be real here. He's not the most unedefendable player in the last five years. He may put up great scoring numbers, but Gonzaga has no one else worth a salt anyway.


Honestly, you sound like somebody that hasn't tuned in to a Gonzaga game this year yet...

The fact of the matter is that as good as Carmelo, Wade, and Williams were, they never put up 43 points twice in a five game stretch against big time teams and defenders, and never faced the kind of defensive gameplanning that Morrison has so far this year. I'm not saying he's a better NBA prospect than those guys, or even more talented. But at the college level, Morrison is better. 

The guy has barely hit a jumpshot in two games, and he still put up 25 in both. Can we please lose the "one dimensional jumpshooter" stereotype?


----------



## tempe85

Jonathan Watters said:


> Honestly, you sound like somebody that hasn't tuned into a Gonzaga game this year yet...


I bet 90% of the people who have bashed Morrison in this thread haven't seen him play more than 1 or two times (and don't include highlights which don't tell you how good a player is). The only thing they have done is listened to a couple articles/commentators that have been unfavorable to Morrison and pretty much just spewed off the same cr*p onto this thread.


----------



## zagsfan20

> Raivio is hurt, Batista isn't a future pro and mentioning Pendergraft and Mallon means what?


Since when does not being a future pro mean that he's not a good college player....You said Gonzaga has no one else, you didn't say Gonzaga has no other pro prospects....

You think the only college players that are good are the ones who make it to the NBA?.....Heh..


Raivio has been hurt, just the past couple games...and he was the one making the clutch shots in the victories against Michigan St. and Maryland....

He'll be returning against Virginia next Saturday...



> Just because they committed to Gonzaga when they were like sophs in HS doesn't mean anything.


uhhhh, when did I say it does...They're solid role players that are key to have on good teams...



> I am not denigrating Morrison in anyway, but there were guys just as good as he was in the past few years. Just because we have short memories doesn't mean it isn't true.


Could have fooled me.....



> I remember people telling me Luke Jackson would be great and he isn't worth squat on the pro level but a bench player.


Two completely opposite players......however, yes they are both white if thats why you bring Jackson into this conversation...




Funny thing is, I used to think you knew a lot about college hoops....


----------



## Pnack

he hit a pretty crazy 3pt bank shot to win the game tonite...looks like a damn good player


----------



## AZwildcats4

compsciguy78 said:


> So everyone is saying Morrison is better than Wally. This means you think Morrison is going to be an all-star? This is what zagsfan said earlier. I can't wait to see Morrison become an all-star. I doubt it will ever happen.


Thats a ridiculous statement. Wally making the all-star team that year was a complete anamoly, he only averaged 18 ppg, which is very good, but that alone is not going to get you on the all-star team most years. That will most likely be the only all-star appearance of his career.

And once again, Morrison plays absolutely nothing like Wally. Period.

Morrison will find success in the league. His bball iq is sky high and he is just so skilled that he will be able to overcome his lack of athleticism. He will still be able to create off the dribble because he doesn't have to make it all the way to the basket, he is very adept at pull-up jumpers and of course those little floaters. Not to mention his ability to move without the basketball. I also the fact that he plays with confidence and has a swagger about him that will serve him well.


----------



## HKF

zagsfan20 said:


> Funny thing is, I used to think you knew a lot about college hoops....


This coming from the biggest Zag homer on the planet. I mean c'mon. :clown:


----------



## bruno34115

Hate to play the race card but if Morrison wasn't white he wouldn't recieve such critisism IMO. Same goes with J.J. Redick.


----------



## jdg

HKF said:


> This coming from the biggest Zag homer on the planet. I mean c'mon. :clown:


He may be a zags homer, but he is right in saying that the Zags got more players than Morrison. Saying they don't have anyone worth their salt is insane. Raivio and Batista are huge pieces of that team. To not respect the rest of their team is foolish.


----------



## ralaw

bruno34115 said:


> Hate to play the race card but if Morrison wasn't white he wouldn't recieve such critisism IMO. Same goes with J.J. Redick.


Hate to play the race card but if Morrison was black most of you wouldn't be here defending him. 

***end sarcasm***

I have become tired of when someone has an opinion on a white player (Morrison, Paul Davis, JJ Redick, etc.) someone is quick to say, "If he was black you wouldn't be saying that." That argument is foolish. The fact is Morrison *IS* white, so to say if he was black he would get more respect is nothing more than an assumption. This is like me saying if I was white I would be further along in my career or if Allen Iverson were white he would have more endorsments. The truth is I nor you have any idea what things would be like. So, please stop that mess!

Lets talk basketball!

On the college level Morrison has shown the ability to dominate. He is an extremelly smart player who is semi-athletic. I personally feel he is a little stiff, but that hasn't seemed to slow him down from scoring at will. He understands how to get his shot off and once he is there he has that high release virtually making in impossible to block his shot. IMHO, his best position in th NBA will be at sg, but on defense is where he will struggle. He needs to get stronger! I think he will make a great second or third option for an NBA team, but nothing more. If Morrison is your go-to guy on the NBA level your team will struggle mightily! I love the competitveness and intensity he plays with, so with that alone I believe he will be better than a Kyle Korver, Luke Jackson or a Mike Dunleavy. However, from a talant standpoint I do not believe will be a 20ppg career scorer and perennial allstar as some are saying. As I have already said I believe he will come into the league similar to Mike Miller (who I believe is more talented) and probably win the rookie of the year, but that will be about it. I expect him to be about a 13ppg scorer for his career, but nothing more.


----------



## zagsfan20

ralaw said:


> Hate to play the race card but if Morrison was black most of you wouldn't be here defending him.
> 
> ***end sarcasm***
> 
> I have become tired of when someone has an opinion on a white player (Morrison, Paul Davis, JJ Redick, etc.) someone is quick to say, "If he was black you wouldn't be saying that." That argument is foolish. The fact is Morrison *IS* white, so to say if he was black he would get more respect is nothing more than an assumption. This is like me saying if I was white I would be further along in my career or if Allen Iverson were white he would have more endorsments. The truth is I nor you have any idea what things would be like. So, please stop that mess!
> 
> Lets talk basketball!
> 
> On the college level Morrison has shown the ability to dominate. He is an extremelly smart player who is semi-athletic. I personally feel he is a little stiff, but that hasn't seemed to slow him down from scoring at will. He understands how to get his shot off and once he is there he has that high release virtually making in impossible to block his shot. IMHO, his best position in th NBA will be at sg, but on defense is where he will struggle. He needs to get stronger! I think he will make a great second or third option for an NBA team, but nothing more. If Morrison is your go-to guy on the NBA level your team will struggle mightily! I love the competitveness and intensity he plays with, so with that alone I believe he will be better than a Kyle Korver, Luke Jackson or a Mike Dunleavy. However, from a talant standpoint I do not believe will be a 20ppg career scorer and perennial allstar as some are saying. As I have already said I believe he will come into the league similar to Mike Miller (who I believe is more talented) and probably win the rookie of the year, but that will be about it. I expect him to be about a 13ppg scorer for his career, but nothing more.




Same ol' same ol'.......

Obviously people have different opinions about what kind of pro he will be and pretty much everybody has argued back and forth with good points.....So we'll just have to wait and see what he will do in the league when the time comes.....

Labeling all players are going to do the same however, because of what race they are or what country they're from is dumb IMO, because for every rule their is an exception and I think Adam will be a great pro, just as he is a great college player....

Before Hakeem there was never a great African player, before Steve Nash their was never a great Canadian player, before Yao their was never a good asian player....


----------



## ralaw

zagsfan20 said:


> Same ol' same ol'...


How is my post the same ol' same ol'? It is my personal assesment of him as a basketball player. With that logic couldn't I say your assesemt is same ol'm same ol'?



zagsfan20 said:


> Obviously people have different opinions about what kind of pro he will be and pretty much everybody has argued back and forth with good points.....So we'll just have to wait and see what he will do in the league when the time comes...


Agreed! It will be interesting to see what he turns out to be.



zagsfan20 said:


> Labeling all players are going to do the same however, because of what race they are or what country they're from is dumb IMO, because for every rule their is an exception and I think Adam will be a great pro, just as he is a great college player....


Agreed, but it happens! This is just a part of our society and something blacks and other minorities have been facing for a long time. BTW, in my post I never metioned anything about him being labeled, because of what his predecessor did. I was simply looking at him from a basketball standpoint.



zagsfan20 said:


> Before Hakeem there was never a great African player, before Steve Nash their was never a great Canadian player, before Yao their was never a good asian player....


Uh, Adam Morison isn't the first white american born player in the NBA and if he dominates he won't be the first to do so either. 

My only question is what happened to the great white american born basketball player? What happened to the days of Bird, McHale, Mark Price, John Stockton, Chris Mullin, etc? Maybe Morrison will bring this back, or maybe he won't, but what happened to the dominant white american born player in the NBA?


----------



## zagsfan20

> How is my post the same ol' same ol'? It is my personal assesment of him as a basketball player. With that logic couldn't I say your assesemt is same ol'm same ol'?


That is in response to you saying the same thing over and over throughout this thread...



> Agreed, but it happens! This is just a part of our society and something blacks and other minorities have been facing for a long time. BTW, in my post I never metioned anything about him being labeled, because of what his predecessor did. I was simply looking at him from a basketball standpoint.


So because our society works that way as a whole you have to think that way...



> Uh, Adam Morison isn't the first white american born player in the NBA and if he dominates he won't be the first to do so either.


He would be the first white player to dominate in a while.....



> My only question is what happened to the great white american born basketball player? What happened to the days of Bird, McHale, Mark Price, John Stockton, Chris Mullin, etc? Maybe Morrison will bring this back, or maybe he won't, but what happened to the dominant white american born player in the NBA?


There just hasn't been one for awhile, but that doesn't mean it won't happen when Adam comes into the league....


----------



## ralaw

zagsfan20 said:


> That is in response to you saying the same thing over and over throughout this thread....


And you haven't? This is a message board where I give my opinion as do you! If I was agreeing with you, you wouldn't be saying this.





zagsfan20 said:


> So because our society works that way as a whole you have to think that way...


You aren't understanding. My opinion of Morrison as a basketball player has nothing to do with him being white. I never said that in this thread! However, this is what most of the white posters on this board are assuming just becuase people don't expect him to be a star in the NBA. I was commenting on a reality to your comment about, "Labeling all players are going to do the same however, because of what race they are or what country they're from is dumb." The fact is it happens in life.



zagsfan20 said:


> He would be the first white player to dominate in a while.....


To dominate in the NBA he will have to be doing what Kobe, D. Wade, McGrady, Nash, etc are doing. Which I doubt will happen if nothing more than due to his style of play. Off the ball scorers never DOMINATE in the NBA they may play well, but they don't "dominate". Richard Hamilton comes closest to Morrison's style of play and he doesn't dominate.





zagsfan20 said:


> There just hasn't been one for awhile, but that doesn't mean it won't happen when Adam comes into the league....


I guess we will see!


----------



## zagsfan20

> You aren't understanding. My opinion of Morrison as a basketball player has nothing to do with him being white. I never said that in this thread! However, this is what most of the white posters on this board are assuming just becuase people don't expect him to be a star in the NBA. I was commenting on a reality to your comment about, "Labeling all players are going to do the same however, because of what race they are or what country they're from is dumb." The fact is it happens in life.


Not true, you have said he will max out his potential quickly in the league just like Mike Miller, Wally Szcerbiak and Kyle Korver and all the other _white_ players that you brought up....If it wasn't a white thing then why did you only mention white players...



> To dominate in the NBA he will have to be doing what Kobe, D. Wade, McGrady, Nash, etc are doing. Which I doubt will happen if nothing more than due to his style of play. Off the ball scorers never DOMINATE in the NBA they may play well, but they don't "dominate". Richard Hamilton comes closest to Morrison's style of play and he doesn't dominate.


Reggie Miller was an off the ball scorer who could dominate and I would have to say I have seen Rip Hamilton dominate some games in the league...


----------



## Nimreitz

Morrison isn't conditioned enough (nor do I think he ever could be) to maintain the effort Hamilton does every night. It is not easy to be such a good off ball scorer in the NBA and the effort Hamilton puts in, plus he uniquely perfect physical traits to play that role in the NBA, shows to me that not many can come close to what he does.

Now can Morrison do it in a limited amount of time? Sure! But not playing starters minutes I wouldn't think.


----------



## rainman

Nimreitz said:


> Morrison isn't conditioned enough (nor do I think he ever could be) to maintain the effort Hamilton does every night. It is not easy to be such a good off ball scorer in the NBA and the effort Hamilton puts in, plus he uniquely perfect physical traits to play that role in the NBA, shows to me that not many can come close to what he does.
> 
> Now can Morrison do it in a limited amount of time? Sure! But not playing starters minutes I wouldn't think.


the guy is 6-7,6-8 and 205, doesnt have an ounce of fat on him and is constant motion for about 38 minutes a game(about 50 against mich state) , i'll respect your opinion but your comment is a joke. on a differant note i was at the game yesterday and i could only think at the end that it was the last time i'll see morrison in person at the college level, i dont know what he'll do in the pros but its been a joy to watch this truly special individual for the past 3 years, i'll let the experts(use that term losely)figure what his pro career will look like.


----------



## ralaw

zagsfan20 said:


> Not true, you have said he will max out his potential quickly in the league just like Mike Miller, Wally Szcerbiak and Kyle Korver and all the other _white_ players that you brought up....If it wasn't a white thing then why did you only mention white players...


.

Again you aren't understanding! I have said and have been saying Morrison will peak early in his career from me watching him as a basketball player. The list was to show how and a possible reason as to why white American born players get downgraded when it comes to GM's and scouts. This is not my opinion, just look at recent drafts as to proof. If you search this entire thread you will see I never used the list to validate my claim he will peak. Some of you assumed that was what the list was for to devalue my opinion of Morrison as a basketball player. I never said he'll peak because he is white but rather from me watching him as a basketball player and projecting him! 



zagsfan20 said:


> Reggie Miller was an off the ball scorer who could dominate and I would have to say I have seen Rip Hamilton dominate some games in the league...


1. Morrison doesn't play like Reggie Miller except for running of screens.
2. Morrison can't shoot anywhere near as well as Reggie Miller.
3. Morrison is more of a scorer while Reggie Miller is a shooter.

Yes, dominanting some games like Richard Hamilton does is way different from dominanting the league like Kobe, Wade, McGrady, etc. You said Morrison will dominate in the the NBA, which leads me to beleive you think he will be on par with Kobe, Wade, McGrady etc. As I said in today's NBA an off the ball scorer will have some good games, but they will not dominate.


----------



## pr0wler

Morrison will be a solid 16-17 PPG scorer in the league. A solid player, but nothing more. Fact of the matter is, he'll enter the league averaging 13 PPG or so, but he doesn't have much potential to be a 20+ PPG player. And yes i'm generalizing because he's white.


----------



## mr hoopster

Morrision will definitly be top 5 pick.


----------



## TM

> Morrision will definitly be top 5 pick.


with what's coming out this year - of course he'll be a top 5


----------



## Nimreitz

rainman said:


> i'll respect your opinion but your comment is a joke.


Don't worry about hurting my feelings. If you think I'm saying something stupid tell me I'm saying something stupid. "Opinions" shouldn't be respected just because someone says them, if they're dumb call the idiot out.


----------



## bruno34115

pr0wler said:


> Morrison will be a solid 16-17 PPG scorer in the league. A solid player, but nothing more. Fact of the matter is, he'll enter the league averaging 13 PPG or so, but he doesn't have much potential to be a 20+ PPG player. And yes i'm generalizing because he's white.


How do you figure he doesn't have the ability to score 20 in the NBA when he scores nearly 30 in college. No potential? Is that a joke. His freshman year he avg 11, junior year 19 and senior year he is avergaing 28.5. Look at that improvement each year and your saying he doesn't have much potential.


----------



## compsciguy78

Zagsfan your arguments are lame. Nobody said Morrison was a hack at the college level, most people are just saying he won't be an ALL-STAR IN THE NBA like you have said. Your homerism has blinded you of the truth. I know, I was once a Zag homer to a lesser extent and watched Dickau, Stepp, Richie Frahm and all those other Zags over the past 5 years. 



Whoever said Morrison is going to play SG doesn't know much about the NBA. If the guy is 6'8" he will likely play SF and he definitely isn't athletic enough to guard the NBA SG. He is a perfect fit at SF position, which is a loaded position in the NBA.


----------



## ralaw

compsciguy78 said:


> Zagsfan your arguments are lame. Nobody said Morrison was a hack at the college level, most people are just saying he won't be an ALL-STAR IN THE NBA like you have said. Your homerism has blinded you of the truth. I know, I was once a Zag homer to a lesser extent and watched Dickau, Stepp, Richie Frahm and all those other Zags over the past 5 years.


Amen brother! 



compsciguy78 said:


> Whoever said Morrison is going to play SG doesn't know much about the NBA. If the guy is 6'8" he will likely play SF and he definitely isn't athletic enough to guard the NBA SG. He is a perfect fit at SF position, which is a loaded position in the NBA.


I can see where you are coming from with him not being able to play the sg spot due to his athleticism, but I think he is physically too weak to play NBA sf's as well. He is 6'8 205 which would make him a taller sg playing against players who are in the 6'6" range weighing the around the same amount, but a lot quicker. The average NBA sf is 6'8 220-30. I think with his high release point and physical weakness, offensively he would be better having a smaller and weaker sg guarding him. Rather than a stronger and taller sf who could push him around. However, regardless of which postition he plays he will be a liability on defense and if he is your go-to-guy on offense your team will struggle and most likely have the #1 pick in 2007!


----------



## rainman

Nimreitz said:


> Don't worry about hurting my feelings. If you think I'm saying something stupid tell me I'm saying something stupid. "Opinions" shouldn't be respected just because someone says them, if they're dumb call the idiot out.


i like your style.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

ralaw said:


> Amen brother!
> 
> 
> 
> I can see where you are coming from with him not being able to play the sg spot due to his athleticism, but I think he is physically too weak to play NBA sf's as well. He is 6'8 205 which would make him a taller sg playing against players who are in the 6'6" range weighing the around the same amount, but a lot quicker. The average NBA sf is 6'8 220-30. I think with his high release point and physical weakness, offensively he would be better having a smaller and weaker sg guarding him. Rather than a stronger and taller sf who could push him around. However, regardless of which postition he plays he will be a liability on defense and if he is your go-to-guy on offense your team will struggle and most likely have the #1 pick in 2007!


So now Morrison is too skinny? He's got more bulk than Rudy Gay does at this point, and has seriously bulked up in the last two years. The guy was listed at 6'8, 205 as a freshman, and has put on a ton of weight since then. He's no less than 220 at the moment, probably in the 225-230 range. Honestly, where does this stuff come from? 

We've had countless posts comparing him to white spot up shooters, when he is clearly not a spot up shooter. We've had people bashing his toughness and passing ability, when he is a standout in both areas. Then it's that he has peaked, when he obviously is still improving. Now it's that he is skinny, even though he's ripped, and is clearly still bulking up. 

I really don't have a problem with people disagreeing about him being a top pick. He's going to have athleticism and defensive issues in the league. But please, people, watch the games and get your facts straight.


----------



## shookem

yeah and which of the 30 NBA teams would Adam be the go-to guy on?

maybe at some point but even the bottom feeder teams have a go-to guy as it is, he'd just be complenting a team.


----------



## ralaw

Jonathan Watters said:


> So now Morrison is too skinny? He's got more bulk than Rudy Gay does at this point, and has seriously bulked up in the last two years. The guy was listed at 6'8, 205 as a freshman, and has put on a ton of weight since then. He's no less than 220 at the moment, probably in the 225-230 range. Honestly, where does this stuff come from?


Opps my fault, I was taking those numbers from what rainman said. Honest mistake.



Jonathan Watters said:


> We've had countless posts comparing him to white spot up shooters, when he is clearly not a spot up shooter. We've had people bashing his toughness and passing ability, when he is a standout in both areas. Then it's that he has peaked, when he obviously is still improving. Now it's that he is skinny, even though he's ripped, and is clearly still bulking up.


I already said his game is most like Richard Hamilton, you partner Zagsfan is the one comparing his game to Reggie Miller. Which is totally off especially considering he says he has watched him since his freshman season. I never said Morrison wasn't a "tough" player, I said he is physically weak. There is a difference! You are correct, his game has improved.......in college, the same way many great college players have in the past. When I watch him I see a developed player who is playing above the competition in college, but will be a role player in the NBA. In my opinion his game doesn't have much room for improvement similar to Calbert Cheaney, which will lead him to become a 13ppg career role player. Please stop trying to insinuate I am trying to find something wrong with Morrison, that is not the case, I have several reasons as to why I believe he will not be a dominant "star" as zagsfan is trying to say. 



Jonathan Watters said:


> I really don't have a problem with people disagreeing about him being a top pick. He's going to have athleticism and defensive issues in the league. But please, people, watch the games and get your facts straight.


I have watched enough of Morrison to form an opinion on his game! Me saying he will struggle in the league from an athleticism and defensive standpoint and saying he will peak early comes from me watching him. IMHO, Morrison is a talent on the college level who has all of the tools to dominate on the college level, however, I blieve his is in a long line of white and black player who fail to reach the expectations that many have of them. If I am wrong fine, it won't be the 1st time. I have been wrong on players such as Shawn Marion, Kwame Brown and Billy Owens. However, I am entitled to my opinion as is everyone else.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

ralaw said:


> However, I am entitled to my opinion as is everyone else.


Which is EXACTLY what I said in the post you were replying to. I wasn't just responding to your issues with Morrison (certainly some of them), as you seem to think I was, but all of the incorrect assumptions being made about him on this thread.

And you have made incorrect assumptions on this thread. 

Your talk about him peaking is a simple guess. The fact of the matter is that he is still improving rapidly, both in terms of on-court effectiveness and athleticism. You have no idea when that is going to stop.

The idea that Morrison is physically weak is downright laughable. What other players can take body contact from two athletic defenders and still drain a 15-foot fadeaway? Nobody uses physical contact to their advantage more than Morrison. If Morrison is physically weak, Rudy Gay is a a twig just waiting to be snapped in half. End of story.


----------



## shookem

Jonathan Watters said:


> Which is EXACTLY what I said in the post you were replying to. I wasn't just responding to your issues with Morrison (certainly some of them), as you seem to think I was, but all of the incorrect assumptions being made about him on this thread.
> 
> And you have made incorrect assumptions on this thread.
> 
> Your talk about him peaking is a simple guess. The fact of the matter is that he is still improving rapidly, both in terms of on-court effectiveness and athleticism. You have no idea when that is going to stop.
> 
> The idea that Morrison is physically weak is downright laughable. What other players can take body contact from two athletic defenders and still drain a 15-foot fadeaway? Nobody uses physical contact to their advantage more than Morrison. If Morrison is physically weak, Rudy Gay is a a twig just waiting to be snapped in half. End of story.


thank you.
I only get to see Morrison play when CBS puts the game on and watching him hit that game-winning shot with two defenders battling with him really made me questions a lot of the things I've read about him on these pages.
He seems like a great player, probaly not Larry Bird, but probably not Wally either.

"Calderon brings the ball up the court. Villanueva sets the screen. Jose wraps around the defender, quick pass to Bosh in the paint, he draws the double team. Bosh passes out to Morrison. Morrison with a quick ball fake, the defender bites, Morrison steps aside and makes a beautiful shot."

book it.


----------



## ralaw

Jonathan Watters said:


> Which is EXACTLY what I said in the post you were replying to. I wasn't just responding to your issues with Morrison (certainly some of them), as you seem to think I was, but all of the incorrect assumptions being made about him on this thread.
> 
> And you have made incorrect assumptions on this thread.
> 
> Your talk about him peaking is a simple guess. The fact of the matter is that he is still improving rapidly, both in terms of on-court effectiveness and athleticism. You have no idea when that is going to stop.
> 
> The idea that Morrison is physically weak is downright laughable. What other players can take body contact from two athletic defenders and still drain a 15-foot fadeaway? Nobody uses physical contact to their advantage more than Morrison. If Morrison is physically weak, Rudy Gay is a a twig just waiting to be snapped in half. End of story.


I don't see how me saying he has peaked is anymore of an "incorrect assumption" then from zagsfan saying he will dominate in the league and be a 20ppg career scorer or you saying, since he is improving rapidly in college than obviously he will do the same in NBA. Playing against athletic defenders in college is entirely different from playing against athletic defenders in the NBA. However, you bring up an interesting point about him improving athletically.......I never thought you could improve athletically. According to DraftExpress.com Rudy Gay is 6'9" 220 while Adam Morrison is 6'8" 215. BTW, the Gonzaga official website has him listed at 6'8" 205, nbadraft.net has him listed at 6'8" 220, espn.com has him listed at 6'8" 205 and cbs.sports.com has him listed at 6'8" 2005. So, I am not sure where you are getting the 6'8" 225-230 range, I guess from watching him huh?. But anyways in my opinion Gay has more room to gain some weight while also being way more athletic.


----------



## ralaw

shookem said:


> "Calderon brings the ball up the court. Villanueva sets the screen. Jose wraps around the defender, quick pass to Bosh in the paint, he draws the double team. Bosh passes out to Morrison. Morrison with a quick ball fake, the defender bites, Morrison steps aside and makes a beautiful shot."
> 
> book it.


This is the role I and many have been saying Morrison will need to play in order to be successful in the NBA this entire thread! In your skit, Morrison is the beneficiary of having a truely dominant player in Bosh and a good pg on the court for him to be successful. Which makes Morrison a good role player who averages around 13ppg for his career!


----------



## shookem

ralaw said:


> This is the role I and many have been saying Morrison will need to play in order to be successful in the NBA this entire thread! In your skit, Morrison is the beneficiary of having a truely dominant player in Bosh and a good pg on the court for him to be successful. Which makes Morrison a good role player who averages around 13ppg for his career!


exactly, which is kinda my point.
someone from the Anti-Adam camp said this guy could never carry an NBA team (I believe it was termed that he couldn't be a 'go-to-guy').
He wouldn't have to on any of the bottom feeder teams.

Raps=Bosh
Hawks= Joe
Houston=TMAC

I guess maybe Portland and the Bobcats could use a 'franchise player', but even on those teams, Morrison would be a secondary option at best.

It just seems to me that this guy has the heart of a champ, with a reasonable skill level. On the right team, Morrison will thrive in the NBA.


----------



## ralaw

shookem said:


> exactlyIt just seems to me that this guy has the heart of a champ, with a reasonable skill level. On the right team, Morrison will thrive in the NBA.


I agree in the right situation he could thrive, but not at the perennial 20ppg scoring, allstar, or dominant level some are trying to say.


----------



## BigMac

why is this thread so long?


----------



## Jonathan Watters

ralaw said:


> I don't see how me saying he has peaked is anymore of an "incorrect assumption" then from zagsfan saying he will dominate in the league and be a 20ppg career scorer or you saying, since he is improving rapidly in college than obviously he will do the same in NBA.


I didn't say he is obviously going to continue improving in the NBA. I do say that at the moment there is no rational basis to claiming he is not going to improve, when he is clearly still improving. We have no way of knowing when he is going to stop getting better, and just because he is playing at the highest level he could possibly play at at the college level certainly doesn't mean he is done improving. Since you say you aren't making your claim based on race, there is nothing behind your statement but a shot-in-the-dark guess. 



> Playing against athletic defenders in college is entirely different from playing against athletic defenders in the NBA. However, you bring up an interesting point about him improving athletically.......I never thought you could improve athletically.


He is a much, much better athlete than he was two years ago. I thought you said you watch him play...



> According to DraftExpress.com Rudy Gay is 6'9" 220 while Adam Morrison is 6'8" 215. BTW, the Gonzaga official website has him listed at 6'8" 205, nbadraft.net has him listed at 6'8" 220, espn.com has him listed at 6'8" 205 and cbs.sports.com has him listed at 6'8" 2005. So, I am not sure where you are getting the 6'8" 225-230 range, I guess from watching him huh?.


Because he was listed there as a freshman, and Gonzaga clearly hasn't updated his roster bio since then. Either you saw him play as a freshman, and you admit he has put on a significant amount of weight since then, or you didn't know he existed back then. What is it going to be? 

And we are now confusing toughness and build. Morrison has a thicker build, and is on an entirely different level when it comes to toughness. 

But that's something that Rudy Gay will magically come up with once he enters the league, and Morrison will magically lose, right? 



> But anyways in my opinion Gay has more room to gain some weight while also being way more athletic.


Any particular reason for that? His body hasn't changed visibly in the last two seasons like Morrison's has. But Gay is the one with room for improvement. Once again, we have conjecture based on nothing. 

Keep in mind, I have no problem with the idea that Morrison isn't athletic and will struggle on defense. Your point is well-made. But him being physically weak? Downright absurd. Nobody current draft prospect takes contact like Morrison. This is absolutely a strength of Morrison's, not even close to a weakness.


----------



## ralaw

Me saying he has peaked comes from me looking at his skill set. He is more developed from an offensive skill set as compared to other college players. This leads to me to believe (an assumption or not) that he already has all of the skills he will have in the future. The similar thing happened to Tim Duncan, Calbert Cheaney, Joe Smith, etc. All of those players had developed games coming into the league and in Cheaney and Smith's case that level was average as compared to NBA talent, but in Duncan's case his level was above the NBA talent level. Now please don't take this the wrong way, I am not saying they did not improve at all from a statistical standpoint or a basketball knowledge standpoint, but they generally were the same player in year 8 that they were in their first season or two. 

Morrison is not more gifted athletically than he was when he was a freshman. He just got older and stronger and which came from hard work in the gym. You are correct about Morrison's weight, but I would say he is closer to 215 than 225-230 as you are saying. Remember muscle mass doesn't equal body weight. In Rudy Gay's case I believe he has the body type to where he could gain 10 pounds and still not lose his athleticism. Where are you getting that I am saying Morrsion will lose weight? Stop fabricating things! Your point is taken on the physically weak discussion. I guess we will see.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

ralaw said:


> Morrison is not more gifted athletically than he was when he was a freshman. He just got older and stronger and which came from hard work in the gym.


So let me get this straight - you are saying Morrison isn't quicker than he was two years ago?


----------



## zagsfan20

Jonathan Watters said:


> So let me get this straight - you are saying Morrison isn't quicker than he was two years ago?


I've given up on this guy.....He obviously hasn't seen much of Adam, just look at his generalized statements.....and he's obviously stubborn in his ways.....This almost reminds me of our Francisco Garcia and Dijon Thompson debate from last year....We will just have to wait and see what happens with Adam, but him proving people wrong has been what he's been doing all his life......


----------



## shookem

That game winning shot on the weekend sure did a lot for him in my eyes.

Does he have a nickname? Lionheart (the Van Dame movie was on Sunday..)


----------



## jdg

BigMac said:


> why is this thread so long?


Do topics around here about great white american basketball players ever stay short? especially when talking about how they will transfer their game to the league.


----------



## ralaw

Jonathan Watters said:


> So let me get this straight - you are saying Morrison isn't quicker than he was two years ago?


Oh my fault I wasn't aware quckness was directly related to his athleticism improving. I actually thought in a previous post you said his athleticism had improved since his freshman year. As I said earlier obviously through conditioning and getting older he will become stronger and quicker, but this is not a sign his athleticism is improving, but rather his training.



zagsfan20 said:


> I've given up on this guy.....He obviously hasn't seen much of Adam, just look at his generalized statements.....and he's obviously stubborn in his ways.....This almost reminds me of our Francisco Garcia and Dijon Thompson debate from last year....We will just have to wait and see what happens with Adam, but him proving people wrong has been what he's been doing all his life......


I've given up on you and your homerism! You obviously are blinded by your supreme homerism to even get in a debate regarding your favorite player in basketball. You have added nothing to this discussion other than, saying Adam Morrison is the second coming. You have brought nothing to the table defending your position regarding Morrison being a "dominant" player in the NBA other than, "Wait and see" or "You guys obviously have never seen him play." Maybe if you brought something to defend your position, than maybe I would be willing to listen. 

Just because I don't believe he will be this "superstar" at the next level, as you do, doesn't mean I am making generalizations. How are my comments generalizations? You can look at any scouting report on Morrison and you will see the same thing I am saying, he is stiff, will struggle in the NBA from a defensive and athleticism standpoint, is very smart, plays with intensity, has a complete offensive repertoire, and competes. Don't let your blind loyalty get in the way of the truth. If you are talking about the list I already have explained to you the purpose of the list. So, if you still want to assume the list was posted for other reasons that is on you!


----------



## tbp82

I can't see why anyone believes that he will be a superstar in the league. Now I am not down on Morrision. Let me explain there is no doubt in my mind that San Antonio and Detroit are far and away the two best teams in the league. Every other playoff team is looking to catch up with these two and a guy like Morrision could come in and benefit these teams well. Furtheremore any team that already has a young guy to build around could use a comlementary player like Morrison. In other words if I am a team who has my franchise player in tact say Orlando (building around Howard) then I jump at the chance to draft Morrision. But if I am a team loaded with role players looking for a star then Morrison isn't even in my rader.


----------



## zagsfan20

> I've given up on you and your homerism! You obviously are blinded by your supreme homerism to even get in a debate regarding your favorite player in basketball. You have added nothing to this discussion other than, saying Adam Morrison is the second coming. You have brought nothing to the table defending your position regarding Morrison being a "dominant" player in the NBA other than, "Wait and see" or "You guys obviously have never seen him play." Maybe if you brought something to defend your position, than maybe I would be willing to listen.


I quit adding to this discussion about 10 pages ago when you started saying that Adam is not improving....It shows that you obviously don't watch Gonzaga basketball and you'll make brash untrue statements and fight them to the death, so whats the point of arguing back and forth with someone who has no clue what they are talking about....

I've already defended my position on the first couple pages of this mess and you argued it continually with a lot of stuff that wasn't true about Adam and when you don't watch him play it is pointless to argue with him about it.....

I have wasted enough time on this board and other boards arguing with people about him who actually watch him, why waste my time on trying to convince someone who is uninformed...?


----------



## ralaw

zagsfan20 said:


> I quit adding to this discussion about 10 pages ago when you started saying that Adam is not improving....It shows that you obviously don't watch Gonzaga basketball and you'll make brash untrue statements and fight them to the death, so whats the point of arguing back and forth with someone who has no clue what they are talking about....
> 
> I've already defended my position on the first couple pages of this mess and you argued it continually with a lot of stuff that wasn't true about Adam and when you don't watch him play it is pointless to argue with him about it.....
> 
> I have wasted enough time on this board and other boards arguing with people about him who actually watch him, why waste my time on trying to convince someone who is uninformed...?


You continue to take what you want from what I say and twist it to believe what you want to believe, so I think the best thing for you to do is move on! I never said Morrison will not improve as a basketball player, if you know anything about basketball that would be the dumbest comment to make, what I did say is he will peak in his first 3 years in the league, similar to how Duncan, Joe Smith and others have, but due to your homerism you have a hard time understanding that. I find it amazing you think you know what I am informed on. As I already said, everyone of my comments can be traced back to any scouting report.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

tbp82 said:


> I can't see why anyone believes that he will be a superstar in the league. Now I am not down on Morrision. Let me explain there is no doubt in my mind that San Antonio and Detroit are far and away the two best teams in the league. Every other playoff team is looking to catch up with these two and a guy like Morrision could come in and benefit these teams well. Furtheremore any team that already has a young guy to build around could use a comlementary player like Morrison. In other words if I am a team who has my franchise player in tact say Orlando (building around Howard) then I jump at the chance to draft Morrision. But if I am a team loaded with role players looking for a star then Morrison isn't even in my rader.


I can buy this argument, but not in the 2006 draft. Rudy Gay is a long ways away from being a star. Not a sure thing, not even close. Maybe Bargani, but how much have you seen of him? LaMarcus is the closest thing you have a legitimate stud prospect in this draft. After that, who ranks as a better prospect in this draft? You can talk about how Morrison is a mid first rounder, but it looks like JJ Redick and Nick Fazekas are going to be gone by then. Morrison is twice the prospect of either of those guys. 

Your point about team needs is the first relevent comment in this thread in a very long time. The draft is a much more specialized event than most people realize. A player might considered mid-first round worthy by every team on the board, but it just so happens that with every team there just happens to be somebody they like better, and he falls into the second round. A team that has a decent post option and has at least some design of winning in the near future is going to look at Morrison in any portion of this draft.

Generally, teams toward the end of the first round are better and will look to take somebody that can contribute right away. However, there are always exceptions, and poor teams that appear ready to make the jump with young players developing. Many teams have the mindset that next year will be the year. Don't underestimate a GM's desire to get a player that can help right away.


----------



## shookem

27 and 7 for stachie last night.

BTW, why isn't J Kidd considered white?


----------



## ralaw

shookem said:


> BTW, why isn't J Kidd considered white?


It's due to poeple's views throughout history.

LINK

However with this it could be argued that Jason Kidd is black as well as Adam Morrison.

note: the second part of this post is a joke for people who lack a sense of humor.


----------



## shookem

ralaw said:


> It's due to poeple's views throughout history.
> 
> LINK
> 
> However with this it could be argued that Jason Kidd is black as well as Adam Morrison.
> 
> note: the second part of this post is a joke for people who lack a sense of humor.


Interesting, it reeks of American racial bull**** (the first link), but interesting.

I use the "Look at the dude" theory. That and if the hair ain't nappy (sp?), he ain't black. jk


Ralaw thx. btw for anyone new coverage of Adam for us?


----------



## TM

Granted, some of Gonzaga's guys are out, but Morrison tonight: 29pts, 9rbs, 4ast = all team highs. He does it all.










Guy looks a bit Hispanic if you ask me. :biggrin:


----------



## Tragedy

shookem said:


> Interesting, it reeks of American racial bull**** (the first link), but interesting.
> 
> I use the "Look at the dude" theory. That and if the hair ain't nappy (sp?), he ain't black. jk
> 
> 
> Ralaw thx. btw for anyone new coverage of Adam for us?


 you never seen jason kidd with hair, eh?


----------



## shookem

TM said:


> Granted, some of Gonzaga's guys are out, but Morrison tonight: 29pts, 9rbs, 4ast = all team highs. He does it all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guy looks a bit Hispanic if you ask me. :biggrin:


must be because white guys can't put up numbers like that, lol.


----------



## shookem

Tragedy said:


> you never seen jason kidd with hair, eh?


yeah I guess so, the guy just doesn't look that black, that's all.


----------



## rainman

jdg said:


> Do topics around here about great white american basketball players ever stay short? especially when talking about how they will transfer their game to the league.


i think morrison is a colorful character, the kid has overcome diabitis and sort of gives one that larry bird swagger, i dont see too many posts about paul davis,nick fazekas and there really hasnt been that much jj redick talk either. start a post on rudy gay or lamarcus aldridge and we'll all weigh in, just for you.


----------



## jdg

TM said:


> Granted, some of Gonzaga's guys are out, but Morrison tonight: 29pts, 9rbs, 4ast = all team highs. He does it all.


None of the Zags important guys were out for this game. Batista was there, Raivio is back, Sean Mallon played, P-Mac played. Even Erroll Knight is back from his injury. The rest of the team is the strongest it has been all season and he is still putting up the same old numbers. Kinda impressive if you ask me.


----------



## TM

I didn't know Ravio was back. Although, I have a feeling that several Zags fans would argue with you that their team is even better with Heytvelt.


----------



## zagsfan20

If you consider the 1 minute that Erroll played to be back....


----------



## shookem

hey Zagsfan and ralaw:

Does Morrison have any nicknames?

We've been calling him Adam Mo and Captain Stachie over on the Raptors board.


----------



## zagsfan20

shookem said:


> hey Zagsfan and ralaw:
> 
> Does Morrison have any nicknames?
> 
> We've been calling him Adam Mo and Captain Stachie over on the Raptors board.


Most Gonzaga fans have nicknamed him "Ammo".


----------



## shookem

zagsfan20 said:


> Most Gonzaga fans have nicknamed him "Ammo".


ha! "Ammo", I like that. I would have got there eventually I guess.


----------



## rainman

zagsfan20 said:


> Most Gonzaga fans have nicknamed him "Ammo".


i guess i missed the memo on "ammo", he was a little out of character for about 30 minutes against st louis, they sent a lot of double teams at him. i would have gone more to posting up if i were him but it all worked out. i always have a problem with guys who shoot 53% trying to set up guys that shoot 30 or 40 %, he only had like one assist so it wasnt some big success, i dont know what the impact of heytvelt would of or will be, he looked like a fish out of water in hawaii he was not in sync at all over there. they miss the depth though, he know doubt is an athlete and i think is going to be needed come march. merry xmas to all zags fans.


----------



## zagsfan20

> i dont know what the impact of heytvelt would of or will be, he looked like a fish out of water in hawaii he was not in sync at all over there.


He also was playing his first time as a freshman and didn't have any prior practices due to a previous injury.....Trust me he is for real and he will explode on the scene next year as Gonzaga's next great big man.....He was recruited by UCONN, UCLA and Kansas for a reason....



> merry xmas to all zags fans.


Merry Christmas and safe New Years for you as well! :cheers:


----------



## rainman

zagsfan20 said:


> He also was playing his first time as a freshman and didn't have any prior practices due to a previous injury.....Trust me he is for real and he will explode on the scene next year as Gonzaga's next great big man.....He was recruited by UCONN, UCLA and Kansas for a reason....
> 
> 
> 
> Merry Christmas and safe New Years for you as well! :cheers:


dont worry about me on the road new years eve(amateur night) i'll be sitting in the friendly confines sipping on some jim beam and watching the ferry's go by on puget sound.


----------



## JNice

..

Morrison is wooping up on Memphis. This kid is a badass. The more I watch him the more I think he really could be a good NBA player.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

I really don't know what more Morrison can do against top-tier athletes. Maurice Ager, Denham Brown, Marcus Dove, Bobby Jones, Rodney Carney...it makes no difference. The guy can score on anybody. I really don't see his percieved lack of athleticism being an issue in the NBA, at least not on the offensive end.


----------



## rainman

Jonathan Watters said:


> I really don't know what more Morrison can do against top-tier athletes. Maurice Ager, Denham Brown, Marcus Dove, Bobby Jones, Rodney Carney...it makes no difference. The guy can score on anybody. I really don't see his percieved lack of athleticism being an issue in the NBA, at least not on the offensive end.



i hope he goes to a team where he can be an intrigal part of the offense not just someone that camps on the three point line. he's at his best when he can drive and kick or hit the mid range shot. i think his passing and court awareness is underrated.


----------



## ralaw

Morrison scores the ball at ease and has the ability to score in whichever way he wants or the defense gives him. It will be interesting to see how his fiery attitude and skills translate to the league.


----------



## shookem

Is he really _that_ bad a t D? Or given what we've seen _will_ he be that bad?

Is he or will he be a liability on D in the NBA?


----------



## cgcatsfan

He is a lot of fun to watch. 
I don't think his D is that bad, it can be developed. 
The offensive skills he has are a slammin'.


----------



## tempe85

Too be honest I think some people are so biased against Morrison on this board that they might only respect him once he starts shooting bolts of lightning out of his *** and fireballs from his eyes.


----------



## JNice

shookem said:


> Is he really _that_ bad a t D? Or given what we've seen _will_ he be that bad?
> 
> Is he or will he be a liability on D in the NBA?


He will be a liability on D in the NBA, probably throughout his whole career. But really, unless you are a top notch defender like Artest or Bowen it doesn't really matter much. It is more about team defense than individual defense, especially with the zone ability now.


----------



## nbanoitall

join the fan club while you can. the day he is drafted I will not add anyone else


----------



## compsciguy78

nbanoitall said:


> join the fan club while you can. the day he is drafted I will not add anyone else



If Adam Morrison bombs you are going to have to change your name to nbadontknowshiz or something along that line. How can you be nbanoitall if your guy dives?


----------



## HB

Unorthodox is the word that comes to mind when I think of him. He has so many ways he can score its just ridiculous. He definitely will go pretty high in the draft, he needs some work on that D though


----------



## nbanoitall

compsciguy78 said:


> If Adam Morrison bombs you are going to have to change your name to nbadontknowshiz or something along that line. How can you be nbanoitall if your guy dives?


I know exactly what you mean. Thank god im always right. saves the embarrassment


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