# Is LeBron the MVP?



## lj4mvp (Mar 3, 2006)

> LeBron James is about to wrap up being just the 4th player in the history of the NBA to average 30 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists in a season. The other 3 who have done that before are Michael Jordan, Oscar Robinson and Jerry West, three of the greatest players ever to play the game. Is that enough to win him league MVP? Historically, the league MVP averages 62 wins. However, there are exceptions where players win with fewer wins.
> 
> The most obvious exception is 1987-88 when Michael Jordan won his first league MVP on a 50 win Chicago Bulls team. A team who coincidentally enough finished second in the Central division behind a tough, physical, defensive minded Detroit Pistons team. A Bulls team that shared our 42-29 record 71 games into the season. That Bulls team won their first round playoff series over the Cleveland Cavaliers, which marked the first time in his 4 year career that Jordan won a playoff series, before being knocked out in the second round 4 games to 1 by the Pistons. Many people expect a similar fate for the Cavaliers this year - a first round win, but not enough to beat the Pistons in the second round.
> 
> If the teams are similar, how about the performance of LeBron vs Jordan. In 87-88, Michael Jordan averaged 35 points, 5.5 rebounds and 5.9 assists. This year LeBron James is averaging 31.2 points, 7.2 rebounds and 6.6 assists. Thus Jordan scored more points, but LeBron gets more assists and rebounds. A straight statistical comparison is somewhat misleading, though, because the pace of the game has slowed down....


Article continued at http://CavsWorld.com


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

If LeBron leads the team to 50 wins and doesn't win the MVP (or at least finish 2nd in voting), something would feel wrong. In that case, we would be left with a sour taste in our mouth and realize the way the MVP is being determined is beginning to change. The feeling I get is that the MVP is now considered to be the best players on teams with the highest win totals. For whatever reason, I think about the All-Star selections this year and wonder if these developments are all a part of a larger pattern in the works. The criteria for determining MVPs today may very well have changed altogether.


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## CHKNWANG321 (Sep 3, 2005)

WOw. thats crazy how much similarity is there. I think someone should sho that article to the voters


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## Morongk22 (Jan 11, 2006)

Depending on what angle the voters are looking at to vote for MVP I think Lebron has to get it if we win 49-50 games. Not only are his numbers amazing but he is the reason the Cavs have won a high majority of their games this year(without him I would say we'd have somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 wins). So if I'm a voter and looking at these two things I'd have to vote Lebron, but regardless of whether or not he wins it, you can't take anything away from the voters decision, their are a lot of players who are helping their teams exceed expectations for this season---Kobe,Kidd,Brand. Along with others who are leading their teams to high win seasons---Nash,Billups,Dirk,Duncan.


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## notting_hill (Dec 18, 2005)

Great stuff , and good job, I hope we will get 50 win , so that Lebron gets the MVP.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

That is a great article..

I could def see Lebron not getting it, no matter what he does the rest of the way. 

1. The media loves Nash (see Marc Stein) 
2. Lebron is so young, alot of voters will assume he has a long career to win MVP's in the future
3. Lebron has gotten no MVP pub whatsoever since early in the season
4. The Cavs as a team get no respect, despite the fact their sitting at 42-29 without their 2nd best player for 40+ games! Cavs have a better record than teams like Denver, comparable to the Clippers, etc. who get ALOT more respect from the media. Indy, who is under .500 and we've beat 3 times this year, gets more respect than the Cavs.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Benedict_Boozer said:


> That is a great article..
> 
> I could def see Lebron not getting it, no matter what he does the rest of the way.
> 
> ...


 ^ Very true. In my mind, if Lebron gets to 50 wins he has as good a case as anybody else.

#2 in PER (behind only Wade), #1 in PER differential, #1 in Roland Ratings, #2 in net +/- (behind only Wade again), and the big thing is he has done this while being #1 in minutes played (by a huge margin over the other MVP candidates).

His team will be at 50 games w/o arguably there second best player as well. W/o the 50 wins though it ain't happening no matter if he finishes #1 in all the important individual overall statistical categories (listed in first paragraph)


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

^ What per are you looking at? He's 2nd in per on the nba.com site only to KG.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MVP or not, 50 wins would be a huge milestone for this team. If they got to 50 wins that would mean they pretty much were red hot going into the playoffs, and that will have an impression on voters. Especially as the Mavs and Suns and Pistons are kind of limping into the playoffs.

The biggest hurdle is really Dwayne Wade who also is putting up big numbers on a team that wins more than the Cavs. Wade is beloved by all. A lot of people think Lebron is still just hype.

I really do think Lebron is going to have to have a year where he is just unanimously the MVP. Remember his rookie year when he deserved to be on the all-star team but didn't get picked. People want to make Lebron work twice as hard to earn accolades, and even then people will hate him for them. Gonna be tough. Lebron for whatever reason, might be more reviled than Kobe right now. Which is crazy to think about.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> ^ What per are you looking at? He's 2nd in per on the nba.com site only to KG.


 Can you link the page. I can't find PER on NBA.com's site. They only keep efficiency as an overall measure


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> I really do think Lebron is going to have to have a year where he is just unanimously the MVP. Remember his rookie year when he deserved to be on the all-star team but didn't get picked. *People want to make Lebron work twice as hard to earn accolades, and even then people will hate him for them. Gonna be tough. Lebron for whatever reason, might be more reviled than Kobe right now.* Which is crazy to think about.


This is 100% true, and it's not just on this board either.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

Pioneer10 said:


> Can you link the page. I can't find PER on NBA.com's site. They only keep efficiency as an overall measure


http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lebron_james/index.html?nav=page

Ranks #2 in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking(29.34)


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lebron_james/index.html?nav=page
> 
> Ranks #2 in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking(29.34)


 LOL: efficiency is not PER.

PER is a much more valuable but more complicated statistic. Google John Hollinger and PER.

It takes into account things like possessions per game and shooting efficiency into account


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Wade was #1 in per last time i checked, but it's been atleast a week or so...

someone mentioned Wade's name in the MVP voting, as great as it might sound and i think he's a worthy candidate, i think the factor of having Shaq as a teammate will make some voters look elsewhere, even if it's a somewhat lame disqualification...

LeBron has the resume this year as good as anyone...i think it's gonna be a very close vote, probably one of the closes races ever I'd say. 

My 1-5 (in no order)
LeBron
Wade
Kobe
Brand
Nash


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## CHKNWANG321 (Sep 3, 2005)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Wade was #1 in per last time i checked, but it's been atleast a week or so...
> 
> someone mentioned Wade's name in the MVP voting, as great as it might sound and i think he's a worthy candidate, i think the factor of having Shaq as a teammate will make some voters look elsewhere, even if it's a somewhat lame disqualification...
> 
> ...


 If S_D says lebron is gonna win the mvp and says that he thinks he should win the mvp. That means lebron is gonna win it.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> My 1-5 (in no order)
> LeBron
> Wade
> Kobe
> ...


When I first saw this I almost had a heart attack. I thought he was saying that Lebron was the #1 candidate to win MVP, then I read the "no order" comment :biggrin:


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

> So I got my MVP ballot from the NBA today.
> 
> Back in February when I was at the All-Star Game in Houston, I worked up this story about how LeBron James wasn't really a competitor for the Most Valuable Player Award this season. I backed it with plenty of commentary from voters and my own individual research. I fully believed it then and stand behind that story.
> 
> ...


http://blogs.ohio.com/cavaliers_blog/


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## hirschmanz (Jun 3, 2005)

there will come a time when lebron takes the league by storm not only in points but also in dominance. The month the cavs play the celts, heat, suns, nets, sixers, lakers... and lebron outduels pierce, nash, carter, iverson, wade, and kobe, among others is the day he earns his mvp.

That said, he should be getting lots more consideration than he is. At some point someone will write an article about how kobe has passed the "best scoring guard" label to lebron, and that is when the fun will begin.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Lebron isn't really a scoring guard, he's more of a point forward (ala Bird and barkley)


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

hirschmanz said:


> there will come a time when lebron takes the league by storm not only in points but also in dominance. The month the cavs play the celts, heat, suns, nets, sixers, lakers... and lebron outduels pierce, nash, carter, iverson, wade, and kobe, among others is the day he earns his mvp.
> 
> That said, he should be getting lots more consideration than he is. At some point someone will write an article about how kobe has passed the "best scoring guard" label to lebron, and that is when the fun will begin.


LeBron is not only not a scoring guard, scoring is not even the primary feature of his game. Now don't get me wrong, he can score with the best of them but thats not all he does. But to further deal with your statement he has recently outduelled Pierce, Nash, Iverson, Wade. I really don't know about Carter and I'd say it was a wash with Kobe, but the game LeBron played better the Cavs lost and vice versa. I just think that for some reason people have decided that LeBron is too young for this to be bestowed upon him. He's outplayed the vast majority of players in the league season long and is more integral to his team than just about any player in the league (only Kobe has a reasonable debate on this). It just seems kinda silly that he basically gets no mention in the MVP debate. Heck people were talking about Pierce as an MVP and don't see the similarities with Cleveland. People always say that the Media loves LeBron, but they love to bash him as much or even more than they love to praise him. They all seem to focus on what he could do better when the things he does he does better than the vast majority of the league regardless of position.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

When 35 points on just 24 shots, 12 rebounds, and 8 assists is a performance that feels subpar for a player you know you have a guy who is having an MVP calibre performance


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Pioneer10 said:


> When 35 points on just 24 shots, 12 rebounds, and 8 assists is a performance that feels subpar for a player you know you have a guy who is having an MVP calibre performance


Thats pretty much my attitude regarding todays game. Our expectations are so high that his performance actually seems pedestrian. I mean he had 35/8/12 and it's kind of disappointing.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

The OUTLAW said:


> Thats pretty much my attitude regarding todays game. Our expectations are so high that his performance actually seems pedestrian. I mean he had 35/8/12 and it's kind of disappointing.


But at least his performance along with the win should guarantee a third consecutive Player of the Week.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

Ordinarily in my previous vacuum I would've said he doesn't deserve it without a doubt, but seeing him live really opened my eyes to how much that team depends on him. He does so many things for the Cavaliers that its incredible, I was shocked to see him doing so much out there. 

Were Larry Hughes on the team, the team might've won 58. If he or Kobe (my leading candidate) don't win it this year, then LeBron will probably get it next year provided the health of the team.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

There's no point in even tracking this anymore, Lebron is not going to get MVP even if he wins out the season averaging 40/10/10.

Look at these comments by Bill Walton on ESPN:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-060403



> Dirk's right up there at the top. This is one of the toughest MVP races in memory for me. He's up there with Billups and Nash. If Dallas were leading the West -- and I don't think they'll win the conference -- I think he would be the leader. *Kobe has not been playing as well nor has LeBron, so Dirk is up there with Chauncey and Nash*. I'll make that decision and make my vote public. But I will say that what Dirk has done has been incredible, going from being traded for Tractor Traylor. He plays like an MVP whether or not he wins it, though.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Kobe has not been playing as well nor has LeBron, so Dirk is up there with Chauncey and Nash

This just goes to further the point that I have that Walton is an idiot. Kobe has been playing fairly well and nobody (I mean nobody) is playing better than LeBron right now. I'm flustered by the stupidity of that comment. Dirk scored 29 against us, and LeBron totally shut him down when it really mattered and yet, he gives Dirk credit while saying LeBron hasn't be playing well? What the heck would be playing well to you Mr Walton? IDIOT!!!


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

Bill Walton is a ****ing idiot LeBron drops 46pts 5reb 4ast 3stl on 16-23fg(70%) on Dallas and he's not playing well? Not only that but that game wasn't even his best of the week.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

ESPN tends to crap on nearly all Ohio sports teams, so this isn't surprising in the least.


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## DetroitDiesel (Nov 14, 2005)

Whats tough about this year is the rediculous amount of players who in other years would be #1 or #2 locks.
I couldn't complain if bron got it. It's hard to say he doesnt deserve it. Though finishing with a better record than the nets would be a step in the right direction.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

I hate to say this but I kinda hope LeBron doesn't win it. People lost their minds on here just because he won MVP of the All Star game. It'll be a complete meltdown if he wins league MVP.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*Beacon Journal | 04/07/2006 | Focus zeroes in on James for MVP*












> *Focus zeroes in on James for MVP*
> *Brown doubles media availability in efforts to hype forward’s chances*
> 
> By Brian Windhorst
> ...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

The OUTLAW said:


> I hate to say this but I kinda hope LeBron doesn't win it. People lost their minds on here just because he won MVP of the All Star game. It'll be a complete meltdown if he wins league MVP.


It would be kind of cool though. In a neener neener neener way. And if the Cavs could get out of the first round in Lebron's first try...I'd love to see the hater's heads explode. All they would have left would be championships. And nobody except for Spurs, Lakers, and Pistons players have those.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*The Plain Dealer*












> _LeBron James scored at least 35 points and grabbed five rebounds in six straight games from March 22-April 2._
> 
> *MVP RACE*
> *Multiple choices*
> ...





> *Early returns have James not-so MVP*
> 
> Friday, April 7, 2006
> 
> ...





> *CAVALIERS*
> *James on rise in race for MVP*
> 
> Friday, April 07, 2006
> ...


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Wow read these comments by Ric Bucher:

kellen, shanghai : hey ric, it seems like the two/three position, with the likes of kobe, mcgrady, carter, iverson, wade, mello, hamilton, and lebron is resplendent with talent. If you had to choose between the Western pair of Kobe and McGrady or the Eastern pair of Lebron and Wade, which pair would you choose?

*Ric Bucher: (12:23 PM ET ) It's not even close -- Kobe and TMac. Neither Wade nor Lebron has the range and the basketball IQ comparison isn't close. What I'll be interested to see is who emerges among LeBron, Melo and Wade as the next truly clutch perimeter player. Right now the ranking goes: Wade, Melo, LeBron. When the King stops handing off the responsibility of taking and making game-winning shots, I'll start to think about him as an MVP. Right now, as wildly talented as he is, I'm not sure he makes my ballot. His biggest failing is his defense. When your best player doesn't commit to that end of the floor, your team doesn't, either. I'm sure he'll get it one of these years, but to recognize him now would be a disservice to him.*

Just so many things wrong with his comments....  I know Bucher and Stein are Lebron haters ..but damn


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Yeah, one doesn't even know where to start. But let's keep these comments around. Might post those in the Lebron thread. If Lebron does some damage in the playoffs and ESPN starts singing his praises as some sort of basketball messiah, these quotes might fit well in an email to maybe Greg Anthony, so the next time Bucher is on the show, Anthony can show him what's up. The only good things about ESPN basketball are Scottie Pippen dissing people for ratings, Bill Walton, and Greg Anthony making Marc Stein and Ric Bucher scared.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

I was about to post a long response to those comments but when you're facing an uphill battle where somebody's mind is already made up, what's the point? Therefore, my official response to those comments is: *". . ."*


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

what a load of BS this bucher guy is...I mean who the **** is he? :curse:


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Just watch LeBron place like 4th or 5th place in MVP voting behind guys like Billups, Dirk, and Duncan, simply because of team wins. 

MVP voters have been clueless for the longest time, I'm pretty well numb to it.


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## CHKNWANG321 (Sep 3, 2005)

Benedict_Boozer said:


> Wow read these comments by Ric Bucher:
> 
> kellen, shanghai : hey ric, it seems like the two/three position, with the likes of kobe, mcgrady, carter, iverson, wade, mello, hamilton, and lebron is resplendent with talent. If you had to choose between the Western pair of Kobe and McGrady or the Eastern pair of Lebron and Wade, which pair would you choose?
> 
> ...


 he is a ****ing retard


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

What a load of BS.

I wonder how these will explain Nash winning MVP with him being owned by any good PG over the last month. Literally Nash has been outplayed by Kidd, Billups, Bell, Paul, and even Livingston. MVP is becoming a joke


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

Bucher is a dick. Can someone enlighten me as to what he has accomplished PLAYING A SPORT?

I can respect Barkley, Smith, Perdue, Miller and Armstrong because they all have actually been professional ballers, some of them on champioship squads, and even if I don't agree with them, I still respect and listen to what they have to say. But Bucher, Stein? who the **** are these guys to hold such ridiculous arguments about PROFESSIONAL BALLERS while sitting on their arse behind a desk? Are they just sport "fans" who write for a living?


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*Beacon Journal | 04/09/2006 |*












> *Windhorst’s MVP Pick*
> 
> The players Beacon Journal pro basketball writer Brian Windhorst is considering giving his MVP vote to:
> 
> ...





> _Windhorst on the Cavaliers_
> *Voting for league MVP a serious issue*
> *Picking between the NBA’s top players warrants careful consideration. Cavs following beard trend*
> 
> ...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Ha. I knew there was something up with those beards.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*LeBron rates as an MVP, 50 games or not*












> *FANLINES*
> *LeBron rates as an MVP, 50 games or not*
> 
> Monday, April 10, 2006
> ...


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Wow out of nowhere ESPN just started giving the Cavs a ton of respect. 

http://sports-att.espn.go.com/nba/index?&lpos=globalnav&lid=gn_NBA_NBA

There are multiple articles about Lebron for MVP and *Stein* even has us 5th in the rankings!


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*BJ Armstrong*

Mr. Armstrong said LeBron isn't in his top 3 candidates for MVP. BJ gave his list: Kobe, Billups, Dirk. For some reason, I remember BJ saying some other things lately that I'm not too keen about and that's why I made this thread (not just because of one comment he made, I wouldn't nitpick like that). 

ESPN is rather peculiar when it comes to James. They hype him, yet their writers make petty comments concerning anything related to James; their broadcasters get funny when talking about James and often follow suit. I've come to realize that ESPN has a love/hate relationship with LeBron James, much like how Gollum had a love/hate relationship for The One Ring.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

BJ can go suck a... like his name suggests. He's a Kobe lover no doubt. When was the last time there was a MVP with 44 or less wins? I was about to post something about this... oh well BJ has his mind made up so it doesn't matter.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

BJ made an article after the NYK game criticizing James for not taking the last shot of the game and passing to Hughes. His logic for giving MVP to Kobe over Lebron was that Kobe takes the last shot, while Lebron puts the responsibility on others. 

Of course the next 2 games Lebron making huge plays against the Nets and then hitting a buzzer beater doesn't fit with this logic, so BJ has to save face and stick with his original picks to avoid looking like a bandwagon retard. 

What's so funny about this obsession with Lebron's decision making at the end of games is he has had monster 4th quarters, game winners, "game winning" passes, defensive plays, pretty much every form of clutch you can come up with, and Bucher/Stein/BJ and crew still want to criticize him. 

I guess unless he completely dominates the ball in the 4th and doesn't let anyone else shoot, even against triple teams, then he's not "clutch" or exhibiting enough killer instinct for their tastes


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

By the way all these Bulls anaylsts are just CLE haters, Will Perdue was picking us out of the playoffs in the preaseason, BJ is ESPN's biggest LBJ hater, Scottie...ehh not Scottie so much, he is actually pretty objective :biggrin:


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*My precious...*

*ESPN: IN A NUTSHELL*


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

OH ****!!! :rofl:


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

Holy ****: that was funny remy


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

Post of the freakin year lol


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

what was bj's new reasoning for not giving the MVP to Lebron?


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## LOYALTY (May 23, 2003)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

REMY

That Was CLASSIC !


Mr. Frodo and Gandalf approve


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

Billups? Chauncy Billups? Of the Detroit Pistons? Over LeBron James? 

I really need to apply for a writing job at ESPN.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

I don't see what's so ludicrous about the statement. If he's not in the top 3 in his book, then he's fourth. Not everyone in the league thinks so highly about Lebron and Chauncey, Dirk, and Nash all have legitimate reasons as to why they should be MVP.

Not having Lebron in the top 3 isn't a diss on him so don't take it take way.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*



spongyfungy said:


> I don't see what's so ludicrous about the statement. If he's not in the top 3 in his book, then he's fourth.


That's a little obvious. Of course LeBron would be his "4th pick" because if you push him down any further, your opinion would seem ridiculous. BJ doesn't win any points with me there for that. Basically he's pushing LeBron down as far as he can but acts like, "My 4th pick would be..." Yeah, buddy.



> Not everyone in the league thinks so highly about Lebron and Chauncey, Dirk, and Nash all have legitimate reasons as to why they should be MVP.


The MVP should not be a matter of what people think, but rather how the player performs. Substance over style, performance over hype, logic over feelings. I know people who think very low of LeBron and are big-time haters, they even they give LeBron his due. So the excuse of whether one thinks high or not of a player, be it in regards to personal feelings, isn't a valid reason. In regards to valid reasons, nothing BJ gives is a valid reason against LeBron and I'd like to see as an individual player, how Billups is more deserving than LeBron. If the MVP is now becoming a team award, I can understand but otherwise, I really can't.



> Not having Lebron in the top 3 isn't a diss on him so don't take it take way.


Like I said, this thread wasn't made from that ONE comment alone. We've been following BJ for some time and it's more of the same.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*



Benedict_Boozer said:


> BJ made an article after the NYK game criticizing James for not taking the last shot of the game and passing to Hughes. His logic for giving MVP to Kobe over Lebron was that Kobe takes the last shot, while Lebron puts the responsibility on others.
> 
> Of course the next 2 games Lebron making huge plays against the Nets and then hitting a buzzer beater doesn't fit with this logic, so BJ has to save face and stick with his original picks to avoid looking like a bandwagon retard.
> 
> ...


Good post.

That wraps up, for the most part, the criticisms and opposing arguments we have thus far seen. It's similar to a person arresting an individual without conclusive, sound evidence yet is still determined in nailing that person. So you make up charges, knowing many will be dropped but you do so anyways in hope that one of them sticks. BJ throws out many poor criticisms of LeBron, some of which are so poorly thought out, even Armstrong himself knows it will be refuted and with a quickness. But maybe, just maybe, one day he'll make a good argument that sticks and then his position will be validated.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

spongyfungy, Chauncy Billups is not a better player than LeBron James, he does nothing better besides hit the 3-ball (and defend occasion). He doesn't have LBJ-impact, not really even that close. He's having an "MVP" season, perhaps, but there's no way he should make it over LeBron, and I'd argue that he's quite easily not a top 5 candidate over LeBron, Kobe, Nash, Dirk, or Wade.


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

*Re: My precious...*



remy23 said:


> *ESPN: IN A NUTSHELL*


LMAO!!! Just about sums it up! again, LOL! :biggrin:


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

I actually can see the logic behind voting for Kobe first. He's had a good season and has accomplished some pretty remarkable stuff. However, if you vote Kobe first there is no logic that would mean you'd vote for anyone second except LeBron. Thats what kills me about BJ. He changes his criteria just so that he can exclude LeBron (or so it would appear). Personally I don't think there is anyone in the game that has the impact of LeBron.


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## GM3 (May 5, 2005)

If he does win would James be the Cavs first MVP?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Ric Bucher strikes again:



> Anybody else sick of the MVP race already? I haven't even filled out my ballot and I don't want to read, hear or say another word on the subject. Of course, being the kind of guy who finds certain kinds of self-inflicted pain interesting, I volunteered to write a column on the subject. This year, it seems, the MVP conversation began two weeks into the season and has never let up. Remember when Elton Brand was a frontrunner back in December? Didn't even Andrei Kirilenko get a mention after the Jazz bolted to that 4-2 start? Or was that his wife after ESPN The Magazine revealed her once-a-year-freebie for Andrei?
> 
> My point being: All the fuss about who is deserving and who isn't and what makes for an MVP and what doesn't is akin to debating what length of skirt turns a girl from sexy to a slut. No one's ever defined it and know one ever will. You eyeball the evidence and decide based on your personal tastes.
> 
> ...


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-060411

What a load of hogwash: why?
How can you call yourself an NBA fan and not get into the MVP voting? Hell this guy is a reporter: this is what it's all about.

MIP is a joke: you're telling me that Nash is more indispenable to his team then Kobe and Lebron? Dallas sure has missed him

The Brand award is dumb as well as Lebron has better stats then Brand all the way around


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

^ These guys sure are creative...


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

Two guys on Cold Pizza just said they are voting LeBron for MVP!!!


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

LeBron is certainly doing all that is humanly possible to make himself look like the leading candidate. His recent play is nothing short of a campaign for MVP. I hope the media goes with it. There are a lot of haters in the media.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Grandmazter3 said:


> If he does win would James be the Cavs first MVP?


absolutely. I think that LeBrons finish last year was the highest ever for a Cavalier. In the Daugherty/Price years there was always way more balance and none of them was really a superstar so I don't think they got any recognition. Heck people act as thought they didn't know that these were some of the best teams in the NBA.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*



remy23 said:


> That's a little obvious. Of course LeBron would be his "4th pick" because if you push him down any further, your opinion would seem ridiculous. BJ doesn't win any points with me there for that. Basically he's pushing LeBron down as far as he can but acts like, "My 4th pick would be..." Yeah, buddy.


I don't know why it would be "ridiculous" Gasol or Brand or Wadehas had a big season as anyone in the league. It goes to show how tight this race is. One can make a case for any of these guys.



> The MVP should not be a matter of what people think, but rather how the player performs. Substance over style, performance over hype, logic over feelings. I know people who think very low of LeBron and are big-time haters, they even they give LeBron his due. So the excuse of whether one thinks high or not of a player, be it in regards to personal feelings, isn't a valid reason. In regards to valid reasons, nothing BJ gives is a valid reason against LeBron and I'd like to see as an individual player, how Billups is more deserving than LeBron. If the MVP is now becoming a team award, I can understand but otherwise, I really can't.


Well the criteria for the MVP award is different for every voter so it IS about how people think a player impacts a team. There are so many different factors to determining who the MVP is: the players surrounding him, the total number of wins, the player's individual stats, the system they are running and more. You have different set of standards than BJ obviously, which is fine.



> Like I said, this thread wasn't made from that ONE comment alone. We've been following BJ for some time and it's more of the same.


Well BJ is known to be the contrarian. He gets paid to say things that go against the grain and ESPN usually has him arguing with someone like Paul Silas. You're talking him right? that's what espn wants. I think that's one reason he left the Bulls. obviously he took the players with the top 3 records in the league and took the players from those teams.

For me, it's a two person race between Dirk and Lebron. Lebron gets the vote. Dwayne is third. I would give it to Kobe if he weren't just 4 games over .500


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

I agree that the criteria for MVP varies from person to person and frankly I think that's intentional. However, I disagree that Gasol and Brand have had seasons anywhere ever remotely close to that of LeBron. One could put Kobe in that rarefied air and Wade as well, but I still don't think from the beginning of the season till now there is a single player in the league that has had the amount of impact night in and night out as LeBron.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

*Kris, India: *PLEASE ANSWER YOUR FIRST EVER QUESTION FROM INDIA. Ok then let's start with a BJ Armstrong question. last week he criticized Lebron for passing out of a triple team on the last possession. larry hughes missed a wide open shot and so Bj argued that LeBron can't be MVP if he shies away from last second shots. Where do you stand on it? is making the play that has the best chance good or taking the last shot no matter what? And this from Elias: eBron James hit a field goal in the final second of play to give the Cavaliers a 103-101 win over the Hornets. James has made 19 of 29 field-goal attempts this season in the last two minutes of a one-possession game (66 percent). No other player with at least 25 attempts has made more than half of them. Derek Fisher ranks second at 50 percent (13-for-26).
*
SportsNation Ric Bucher:* (2:36 PM ET ) Welcome, Kris. The stat on LeBron in the final two minutes makes BJ's case. He's 19 for 29 in the final two minutes! He has the size and speed to get his shot against anybody! He is the undisputed leader of that team! Unless he's smothered -- and if he's aggressive, that should rarely happen -- there's no one else who should be taking that shot. I don't believe LeBron is MVP (maybe a candidate, but not at the top of the ballot) for the same reason: he doesn't fully grasp the mental game within the game yet. Quite honestly, he makes a lot of bad decisions. Still. He survives them because he has such tremendous raw ability and a physical advantage on par with Amare Stoudamire's -- but there's a reason Phil Jackson preferred coaching Kobe over LeBron. Kobe knows the game and what decisions need to be made when. LeBron is still figuring that out.

uke:


*Mike(OH):* Ric...so you seriously think that LeBron should take the last shot no matter what? I find it refreshing that a superstar player is willing to pass out of a triple team to an open guy for a look at the win. LA can keep Kobe and his constant clamoring for the ball...LBJ makes others around him better.

*Aaron (Indianapolis, IN):* you guys always point of the flaws in LeBron's game, which happens often with great players. But at this point what more can he do? Average 40 and a triple double? Be careful cus he might just do it!

*SportsNation Ric Bucher: *(2:55 PM ET ) Aaron is right, the best do get scrutinized more than the average player. But here's the simplest answer to both questions: He can be smarter. Much smarter. It's not a matter of taking the last shot every time. It's about looking to take the last shot every time, about forcing the defense to stop him first. All too many times, LeBron settles. He makes an acceptable play but not the best play. Say what you want about Kobe, he fully understands who he has around him and what his best chance of winning is and he goes for it. Throughout the course of a game, he's setting up his opponent, anticipating where the game is going to be won in the fourth quarter. Nash and Billups are very similar in that regard. Dirk and Elton Brand just don't have the pure ability to control a game in that manner. LeBron has the talent but not the awareness. Which makes him amazing that he can do what he can do. But it doesn't make him MVP. 

:curse:

This is the only thing they can still hold on to... Something that is so ambigious that to me it doesn't make sense. Question his "mental" part of his game and decision making. I call BULL****!


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

*Shaun (Cleveland, Ohio):* With yet another amazing performance last night, including a game-winner, my question is this: How many more spectacular things does this man have to do for everyone, yourself included, that he is not only an MVP candidate, but the player who should win the award?

*SportsNation B.J. Armstrong:* (3:05 PM ET ) It has been said that mediocrity is sort of the rule of the world. Once you are in the presence of greatness, nothing will ever be the same. LeBron shall be measured without the limitations of mediocrity. Looking from the level of an average basketball player, his numbers are spectacular. But when you know his potential, excellence should be the point of his career. What may look like great numbers from an average player, this young man is just starting to scratch the surface. We all want to see him reach the level of greatness we know he can reach. Great players can reach levels other can't reach and it would be a crying shame to see him not reach that level. *He can no longer succumb to mediocrity or all his talent will be for nothing. *

WTF does this mean? I mean seriously? WTF?


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

I suppose at the end of the day, they're just like us: trying to make a living and live an honest life. That said, you couldn't pay me to make some of those comments. Why? Because many simply aren't true and there's no way I could honestly, in my heart of hearts, feel that way.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

Those are about the dumbest arguments I've heard. Put in another way if those guys posted those exact same comments in the NBA general forum here on BBB.net they would be pwned by posters who actually make a sensible case.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

I think what he's saying is that they will not compare him to the best players in the league today, but the best players ever to play since that is where his skills should put him. Seems really really unfair to change the rules just because he has such great potential.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

Wow. Both of those guys--in denial. And did you read Ric Bucher's article complaining about how hard it is to pick an MVP these days? Dude isn't even a true fan. He doesn't even like basketball apparently.I bet he's watched less than 5 games that Lebron has played in.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*



The OUTLAW said:


> I think what he's saying is that they will not compare him to the best players in the league today, but the best players ever to play since that is where his skills should put him. Seems really really unfair to change the rules just because he has such great potential.


 The MVP isn't about fulfilling you're potential or having paid you're dues in the league it's about who's having the best season. Unfortunately, these writers seem to be using some very fuzzy logic to come up with standards above the norm for Lebron to fill (i.e. even above an MVP calibre season)


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: BJ Armstrong*

^ If people have to create and then recreate standards to judge LeBron by, coupled with making an argument only to abandon it and pursue another, that would leave me disappointed with the intellectual dishonesty of the whole thing. That's very shady stuff right there.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

^Exactly. That is some of the stupidest **** i've ever read in my life. It literally makes you angry reading that nonsense. I have no problem with them not selecting Lebron, if you have a coherent argument behind it. But some of that...

When Lebron disproves all of the critics, they just come up with intangibles that can't be proven one way or the other.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

> Ric Bucher: (2:48 PM ET ) By the way, here's another reason I just can't get all that worked up about LeBron's finishing flourish -- it has come against primarily weak teams with the pressure off of making the playoffs. I can't underscore what a difference it makes when a team knows it is in, knows it has homecourt advantage and can just play freely. Especially a team that plays the way the Cavs do. For another example, look at last year's Warriors. They were killing people at the end of the season. Why? Because fates were already decided, theirs and the teams they were playing. Don't get me wrong, LeBron's talent is stupendous. But I'd hate to have my league MVP stumble in the first round and that has a very real chance of happenin


Look at this other gem from Bucher. Again he's playing both sides of his argument. On one hand, he criticized Lebron during the slide after the AS break, but doesn't give him any credit for *leading the surge that secured HC and made these games "pressure free".*


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

^ Lol that is so stupid. Does he realize the Cavs surge when homecourt and even the playoffs were FAR FROM secure. Wins over Miami, Dallas, and NJ (at home) are also easy opponents?

He also forgets that *we have beaten every single playoff team in the East AND West this year.*


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

God reading Bucher is just making me more mad: We have a better record against the top teams then either Phoenix (Nash), LAL (Kobe), Clipper (Brand), and Miami (Wade).

Of the top contender only Dirk's and Billup's team have better record against good team.
http://teamrankings.com/nba/

This ****ing guy doesn't know **** about basketball IMO. How comes he's doesn't say this **** about weak competition with any of the other guys? I mean Phoenix and Miami in particular have simply sucked against good teams


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

^BJ said Lebron is not an MVP for passing the last shot against the Knicks. A game later, he takes and makes the game winner. Does BJ retract his statement? Give Lebron credit? Nope. He just raises the bar to MJ status, and says Lebron comes up short right now and doesn't deserve MVP. 

Stein says Lebron needs to lead the Cavs to 50 wins after the AS break to earn his MVP vote, and was all over him during the slide. Now that he actually is managing to do so, Stein is quiet as a mouse. 

Bucher says Lebron doesn't "understand" the mental aspects of the game. To explain how it's possible then he is putting up historical numbers, leading his injury-depleted team to so many wins, and playing so well in pressure situations he says Lebron does it on "talent" and needs to play "smarter". (WTF?)


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Pioneer10 said:


> ^ Lol that is so stupid. Does he realize the Cavs surge when homecourt and even the playoffs were FAR FROM secure. Wins over Miami, Dallas, and NJ (at home) are also easy opponents?
> 
> He also forgets that *we have beaten every single playoff team in the East AND West this year.*


One last comment on this. Nash had his seed locked up. Billups had his seed locked up. Dirk had his seed locked up. Brand had his seed locked up. Are their wins now discounted because there is no "pressure"? Why does this criticism only apply to Lebron?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

^ because he obviously is saying **** off the top of his head w/o thinking whether it applies to other players.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

It's kind of racist what Bucher is saying. The ol' ****** doesn't "understand the game" he just gets by on "talent". Thought we were through with that trick.


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## Like A Breath (Jun 16, 2003)

Maybe LeBron needs an egotistical television campaign like Kobe Bryant where he's seen watching film of himself and working out 12 hours a day. Seriously, he doesn't get enough credit for his work ethic and basketball IQ, which is obviously off the charts.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

This is some hilarious **** - read Bucher's column on Yao and tell me if this makes any sense at all. Effusive praise for a guy who stepped up his game after the All-Star break who had NO realistic chance of making the playoffs. Yet a guy who has shown the best decision making at the end of games and been that good all - year is suddenly not deserving of the MVP. Why doesn't he take a look at the Player of the Month and Player of the week awards this year?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=bucher_ric&id=2404746


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

I honestly think Ric Bucher is such a bad writer, makes guys like me jealous because _I'd be doing a freaking better job _

LeBron + Dirk are the top 2 MVP candidates, IMO - both indispensible and valuable


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

It's good to hear that Stein and Bucher are having to put up with a ton of angry Cavs fans. I hope their inboxes are flooded with angry emails about their coverage. If either guy posted on these boards they'd be ripped to shreds.


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> If either guy posted on these boards they'd be ripped to shreds.


 :rofl:


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

LeBron and Kobe are both putting it down. I can't decide. Watch the idiots who make the calls give it to Billups or Dirk...


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*Beacon Journal | 04/16/2006 | Ranking the Cavaliers*












> *Ranking the Cavaliers*
> *James is obvious team MVP, but who follows?*
> 
> By Terry Pluto
> ...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

1. Lebron
2. Z
3. Flip
4. Anderson
5. Gooden
6. Hughes
7. Marshal
8. Snow
9. Jones
10. Alan Henderson
11. Pavlovic


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