# Who are the best defensive big SG's in College BB??



## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

I did not put this on OT since it is very relevant for our team.

Since I do not live in the US i only get to see college games on ESPN and Fox , which r usually high ranked or high profiled teams.

Now I mean any good defensive wing player that can gaurd the 2 position.
Many times those guys ain't so high profiled offensive beasts and therfor do not get drafted , although many times they turnout having a place in the league.

Not an example specifically for this question , I just want to remind U guys Dallas signed Marquis Daniels as an Undrafted player - Now imagine we can get a guy like that without a draft pick.

*HKF - I know u got something to say here , and this is kind of a HKF trap* :wink: 

One of the examplas I had a chance to see play is Georgia Tech *Isma'il Muhammad* - Not a great offensive player (he's OK) , but kind of an Ox/Bull very strong 6-6 SG/SF that plays aggressive BB and it ain't so sure he'll even be in the 2nd round (he might , some mock drafts have him , some don't).

Your thoughts???


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Well I anticipate some howling when the venerable Phooey reads this 

BUT...

Remember the candy azzed notion that CozRob was to be our big guard ?

Remember the angst that some members of descendant tribal basketball rant boards would engender from overt navel gazing as to whether CozRob was a shooting guard or a power forward when the late great RetroDreams was insistent he was a power forward ( I still say that was all swell and dandy in the Juco backwater he played but in the NBA under Silas when he shot 70% from the field and rogered Riley's Heat before he went MIA after the summer of love that was his free agency he was undoubtedly a swing 2/3 )

And with that I give you Hakim Warwick


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> And with that I give you Hakim Warwick


Well , I have little doubt that Hakim can gaurd SG's efficiently due to freakish athletisizm and Length. I also read somewhere he's working on sf needy attributes since he knows he probably won't get to play much PF with the Physical beasts of the league. 

But - Hakim is undoubtedly a high profiled player , a mid 1st rounder , which means we'd have to trade to get him , and in the case Pax trades for a 1st - I could only guess that if Pax targets a SG/SF guys like Kennedy Winston/Fransisco Garcia/Joey Graham/Dijon/Jawad would have an advantage on Hakim.

I'm looking for Future 2nd rounders/undrafted prospects , guys we have a much better chance to get. The high profilers carry a high price coming with them...


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

As a Duke fan it pains me to say this but what about Jackie Manuel


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

If we want a rookie, then Pax should browse potential 2nd round picks for which he could make a small trade (i.e. future 2nd rounder). Julius Hodge comes to mind. I would definitely want someone well-schooled in defensive fundamentals, ala Hinrich, which would probably be a 4-year player somewhere. 

More than likely though, we won't want to go after a rookie, unless Pax truly feels he's found a diamond in the rough. I see him using part of the MLE to find a Devin Brown or Raja Bell type player. Someone who can basically jump right into the rotation immediately.


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## tiredchick (Oct 20, 2003)

One player who I know little about, but sounds intriguing, is Nikolaos Zissis. He's not a college kid, but an international player, who -- despite being just 21 years old, is in his 4th year as a starter in the Euroleague. Below is the link to his draftcity.com profile. I am not clear whether he has been switched from PG to SG or vice versa, but at 6'5" he has good size (although evidently lacks strength). It also says that he may not be quick enough to guard PG. He is supposed to be a good defender, though.

Does anyone on this board know anything more about him? Draftcity.com has him listed as a possible late 2nd round pick.

http://www.draftcity.com/viewprofile.php?p=117

Other thoughts: Tre Simmons (U. Washington, Sr., 6'5")
Mardy Collins (Temple, Jr., 6'6" - although has been converted to PG, and may be better suited at that position) - http://www.draftcity.com/viewprofile.php?p=340
Alando Tucker (Wisconsin, Jr., 6'5")
Eddie Basden (Charlotte, Sr., 6'5")


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

Basghetti80 said:


> As a Duke fan it pains me to say this but what about Jackie Manuel


You beat me to it.

Manuel is ridiculous on defense.

The only problem is that the question is asking for the best defensive big SGs in college basketball. While Manuel is shooting guard size, in no way should the word "shoot" ever be used in conjunction with Manuel's name.

Unless, of course, you say "Don't shoot Jackie!"

I know there are a select group of defensive specialists in the league at shooting guard, but Manuel is completely incompetent on the offensive end. A team would have to be desperate on defense to give him a roster spot.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Isma'il Muhammad, I would pick up if he went undrafted. I would not draft him. He is 6'6 and a sky walker, but he at times plays a little dirty (I still like him, but I can see how opposing players may not) and his ball handling is extremely poor. I don't know how he could be a SG on the pro level with his ball-handling.

Now a guy I'd like to get my hands on if I could is Hassan Adams. He's 6'4, but has shown the ability to defend (well I might add) guys who are 6'6 and up. He's very similar activeness-wise to Tony Allen. 6'4, strong as heck, a super athlete (43" vert rumored), can run all day and would be a tremendous player to get out on the break with and watch fly. He also can stick the mid-range jumper. His offense continues to improve and while I've never seen him score a lot (he's had some big offensive games over his career however), I think it's more a reason of him sharing with other players. He has to share with Stoudamire, Frye, McCllelan, Shakur, Radenovic and Rodgers. 

Not a deep shooter, but his mid-range is good, he doesn't demand shots, will play the team game and get all of his points in the flow. His aggressiveness, enthusiasm and energy can be a catalyst to his team. I think sometimes the Atmosphere of Arizona is too laid back, because those guys don't always match this guy's energy. 

He'd be a good pick IMO (in the mid-to-late first or 2nd round). I'm having a hard time getting a bead on where I think he will go. I'd want him on my team though if I wanted defense and to get up and down.

Another guy who's out there, but might be a defensive SG is Melvin Sanders, ex-Oklahoma State Cowboy. Now, he was an all-Big 12 defender two years ago and was in Denver's training camp a year ago and was cut at the last minute. It would make sense to me to see if the Bulls could bring him in for a workout (or possibly summer/training camp). I think he could be a nice backup defensive SG/SF. 

If you look at the history of Eddie Sutton players, you'll see that Desmond Mason, Tony Allen, Rex Chapman were very good defenders. Joey Graham is going to be an Artest like defender at the SG/SF as well coming out this year and Sanders might be better defensively then all of them.

That's why I want Gerald Green to go to Oklahoma State. He knows how to score, but he can learn some hellacious D in Stillwater and come out a year later a really well-rounded prospect on both ends of the floor. 

If you have someone else in mind please mention his name and I'll see if I've seen enough of him to make a judgment.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

good call on Adams HKF, what do you think about Louis McCollugh from Francis Marion University, half brother of Kevin Garnett, he is like 6'7, very strong and athletic, ball handling skills might need work if he is going to play SG in the NBA.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Basghetti80 said:


> good call on Adams HKF, what do you think about Louis McCollugh from Francis Marion University, half brother of Kevin Garnett, he is like 6'7, very strong and athletic, ball handling skills might need work if he is going to play SG in the NBA.


I have no idea who he is. I've heard of him, but I've never seen him play at all, so I could never make a judgment on him. Supposedly he has good genes (that hopefully isn't punching people in the face. :wink: ), but I'm sure scouts have seen this dude play. 

He's a SG huh? If Ronald Murray can come out of Shaw and be a good player, it's not a stretch that this dude might be NBA potential.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Hong Kong Fooey said:


> If you look at the history of Eddie Sutton players, you'll see that Desmond Mason, Tony Allen, Rex Chapman were very good defenders. *Joey Graham* is going to be an Artest like defender at the SG/SF as well coming out this year and Sanders might be better defensively then all of them.


 :yes:


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Hong Kong Fooey said:


> Isma'il Muhammad, I would pick up if he went undrafted. I would not draft him. He is 6'6 and a sky walker, but he at times plays a little dirty (I still like him, but I can see how opposing players may not) and his ball handling is extremely poor. I don't know how he could be a SG on the pro level with his ball-handling.
> 
> Now a guy I'd like to get my hands on if I could is Hassan Adams. He's 6'4, but has shown the ability to defend (well I might add) guys who are 6'6 and up. He's very similar activeness-wise to Tony Allen. 6'4, strong as heck, a super athlete (43" vert rumored), can run all day and would be a tremendous player to get out on the break with and watch fly. He also can stick the mid-range jumper. His offense continues to improve and while I've never seen him score a lot (he's had some big offensive games over his career however), I think it's more a reason of him sharing with other players. He has to share with Stoudamire, Frye, McCllelan, Shakur, Radenovic and Rodgers.


There's a big difference between being 6'2" like Ben Gordon and 6'4" as Adams has listed. The NBA already has a few impressive defenders at 6'4" who can lock up shooting guards in Dwyane Wade and Tony Allen. I can take a 6'4" guy as our "big guard" if he's going to try to be a lock down guy. Especially if he's Hassan. Man, that guy is fun to watch. I feel like I caught one of those Arizona games you mention above at the end of last year when he just went off and scored a boatload. He's impressive.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> There's a big difference between being 6'2" like Ben Gordon and 6'4" as Adams has listed. The NBA already has a few impressive defenders at 6'4" who can lock up shooting guards in Dwyane Wade and Tony Allen. I can take a 6'4" guy as our "big guard" if he's going to try to be a lock down guy. Especially if he's Hassan. Man, that guy is fun to watch. I feel like I caught one of those Arizona games you mention above at the end of last year when he just went off and scored a boatload. He's impressive.


Usually the guys that are 6'4 are super athletes too, so they can make up for their lack of size with strength and leaping ability defensively. Hassan has the same thing. His energy is what I love about him the most. Guys makes you want to play harder and he's fun to watch.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Hong Kong Fooey said:


> Isma'il Muhammad, I would pick up if he went undrafted. I would not draft him. He is 6'6 and a sky walker, but he at times plays a little dirty (I still like him, but I can see how opposing players may not) and his ball handling is extremely poor. I don't know how he could be a SG on the pro level with his ball-handling.
> 
> Now a guy I'd like to get my hands on if I could is Hassan Adams. He's 6'4, but has shown the ability to defend (well I might add) guys who are 6'6 and up. He's very similar activeness-wise to Tony Allen. 6'4, strong as heck, a super athlete (43" vert rumored), can run all day and would be a tremendous player to get out on the break with and watch fly. He also can stick the mid-range jumper. His offense continues to improve and while I've never seen him score a lot (he's had some big offensive games over his career however), I think it's more a reason of him sharing with other players. He has to share with Stoudamire, Frye, McCllelan, Shakur, Radenovic and Rodgers.
> 
> ...


Yup , Hassan Adams is a player I did get to see this season and last. He's a crazy athlete , tough player. Though don't U think he'll stay for his senior season - Frye and Salim R leaving , he'll stay with Shakur and probably raise his value for 2006 draft. He's also having kind of a slump season so far in shooting (% down) , so I think those things might indicate he'll only be available in 2006.

And I agree about Green , OSU will help him lots.

Joey Graham - He'll go mid 1st , we'd have to trade for him , high price (future pick??)

Anyway , Thanks for taking the trap HKF :biggrin:


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Basghetti80 said:


> As a Duke fan it pains me to say this but what about Jackie Manuel


Yup , Basg , he's a damm good defender. And a senior , and it's quite clear he won't be on board of the 2nd round. I wonder...


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

bullet said:


> Yup , Hassan Adams is a player I did get to see this season and last. He's a crazy athlete , tough player. Though don't U think he'll stay for his senior season - Frye and Salim R leaving , he'll stay with Shakur and probably raise his value for 2006 draft. He's also having kind of a slump season so far in shooting (% down) , so I think those things might indicate he'll only be available in 2006.
> 
> And I agree about Green , OSU will help him lots.
> 
> ...


I am supposed to write up another mock draft, but I'm not making that mistake again. I'm just going to wait till the NCAA tournament is over and the draft deadline comes up and then write mine. I think he personally should come out, because this is the role player draft (not a bad one, just no superstars for the most part). I think he could make a team or be picked in the first round. Next year if you come out you're taking a huge risk. I mean I have counted 10 guaranteed lotto picks next year:


1. Greg Oden, 7'0 C, HS Jr.
2. Rudy Gay, 6'9 SF, Connecticut Fr.
3. Brandan Wright, 6'9 SF/PF, HS Jr.
4. Derek Caracter, 6'9 PF, HS Jr.
5. Randolph Morris, 6'11 C, Kentucky Fr.
6. LaMarcus Aldridge, 6'11 PF, Texas Fr.
7. Daniel Gibson, 6'3 PG, Texas Fr.
8. Jordan Farmar, 6'2 PG, UCLA Fr.
9. Kevin Durant, 6'9 SF/PF, HS Jr.
10. Vernon Macklin, 6'9 SF/PF HS Jr.

oh and just for good measure No. 11:

Sammy Mejia, 6'6 PG/SG DePaul

11 guys that I think are lottery picks next year (not including Marvin Williams, if he is in the 2005 draft) and I didn't include any European players, whom I haven't seen. 2006 is not the year to be a fringe star.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Hong Kong Fooey said:


> I am supposed to write up another mock draft, but I'm not making that mistake again. I'm just going to wait till the NCAA tournament is over and the draft deadline comes up and then write mine. I think he personally should come out, because this is the role player draft (not a bad one, just no superstars for the most part). I think he could make a team or be picked in the first round. Next year if you come out you're taking a huge risk. I mean I have counted 10 guaranteed lotto picks next year:
> 
> 
> 1. Greg Oden, 7'0 C, HS Jr.
> ...


Well , if he decides to come out , I'm all for targeting him.

BTW - where is Melvin Sanders today??

And U think all those HS's would come out , that would be the youngest lotery ever... Wright is the guy with the sick wingspan ain't he?? Never seen him.
And if u're talking 2006 HS's - didn't u forget Martell Webster ??


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

bullet said:


> Well , if he decides to come out , I'm all for targeting him.
> 
> BTW - where is Melvin Sanders today??
> 
> ...


Webster is a 2005 HS player.

Greg Oden, Derrick Caracter, Kevin Durant, Brandon Wright and Vernon Macklin will all be picked in the top 15. They are huge. There's also Kevin Graves who would be a SG, but the big men in this class are special like 2004.

Sanders is probably in Europe right now. I'm sure some team would want him to come back and try to make the team. He's a stud defensively.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

I would rather address the big guard via FA. How many rookies come into the league and contribute anything defensively their first 2 seasons? Pretty rare for wing players


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Hong Kong Fooey said:


> Webster is a 2005 HS player.
> 
> Greg Oden, Derrick Caracter, Kevin Durant, Brandon Wright and Vernon Macklin will all be picked in the top 15. They are huge. There's also Kevin Graves who would be a SG, but the big men in this class are special like 2004.
> 
> Sanders is probably in Europe right now. I'm sure some team would want him to come back and try to make the team. He's a stud defensively.


Thanx again , where is Webster going then , might he declare??


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

bullet said:


> Thanx again , where is Webster going then , might he declare??


He's heading to Washington and if he declares I'm not sure he will be picked before the 20's at best. Then at Washington he will be behind Brandon Roy and Bobby Jones who will be seniors. I think if he heads to college you'll see Martell Webster in 2007.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

superdave said:


> I would rather address the big guard via FA. How many rookies come into the league and contribute anything defensively their first 2 seasons? Pretty rare for wing players


Me too.

Problem is - Let's say we sign Duhon for 1.5 mil , then we go and sign a big guy to replace Othella , Maybe Oberto , that would cost us at least 2-3 mil more.

So what will it leave us from the MLE - not much , anyway not Enough for Devin/Raja.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Hong Kong Fooey said:


> He's heading to Washington and if he declares I'm not sure he will be picked before the 20's at best. Then at Washington he will be behind Brandon Roy and Bobby Jones who will be seniors. I think if he heads to college you'll see Martell Webster in 2007.


OK - thanx HKF for the College/HS BB infomania :biggrin:


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

Durant may be the number one pick by next year. My friend coached him last summer and the kid is KG all over again. A legit 6'9" 6"10 with range and a developing post game. Hes put on weight down at Oak Hill. He is averaging like 20 and 10 down there and shooting 60% from the field .He will be running with the DC Blue Devils this sumer hopefully I can jump on with them this summer. 
He needs to get in the weight room, hopefully I will be able to help him with that. Nothing like DC area high school basketball. Simply the best.

Eddie Basden may be the best defensive player in all of college basketball.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

DaFuture said:


> Durant may be the number one pick by next year. My friend coached him last summer and the kid is KG all over again. A legit 6'9" 6"10 with range and a developing post game. Hes put on weight down at Oak Hill. He is averaging like 20 and 10 down there and shooting 60% from the field .He will be running with the DC Blue Devils this sumer hopefully I can jump on with them this summer.
> He needs to get in the weight room, hopefully I will be able to help him with that. Nothing like DC area high school basketball. Simply the best.
> 
> Eddie Basden may be the best defensive player in all of college basketball.


Durant is a hell of a player and yet he still might not be better than Brandan Wright. He's not going to get picked over Greg Oden either. That right there shows you though, that the top of the draft in 2006 is where it's at. I counted at least 7 franchise level talents that could be in the draft. The 4 HS players (Oden, Caracter, Wright, Durant), Rudy Gay, LaMarcus Aldridge and Jordan Farmar.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

The choice is obvious isn't it?


Out of Nooorthhh Caaaaaaroooooliiiiina

M-I-S-T-E-RRRR I-N-C-R-E-D-I-B-L-E


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

Hong Kong Fooey said:


> Durant is a hell of a player and yet he still might not be better than Brandan Wright. He's not going to get picked over Greg Oden either. That right there shows you though, that the top of the draft in 2006 is where it's at. I counted at least 7 franchise level talents that could be in the draft. The 4 HS players (Oden, Caracter, Wright, Durant), Rudy Gay, LaMarcus Aldridge and Jordan Farmar.



Oden is the only high school kid I would take over Durant. Gay is a kid with a lot of potential but I dont think he has the "it". Character, I wont even start on him. Wright is a heck of a player but go check out Durant this summer, the kid is smooth and at 6'10 maybe taller after he leaves Oak Hill, It will be scary just how good he will be. I think the only thing right now stopping him from averaging close to 30 a game at Oak Hill is strength and realizing just how good he can be.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Another guy I remembered Is Alan Anderson from Michigan St.

He might go undrafted cause he ain't a superstar in College BB , But he's a very tough player with some decent Skills. Phisically he'll have no problem in the nba imo.Has great Latteral Quickness and great strength. He plays with tons of will and passion. Midrange J decent. Good on the break. Weak Handle.

Alan Anderson


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

tiredchick said:


> One player who I know little about, but sounds intriguing, is Nikolaos Zissis. He's not a college kid, but an international player, who -- despite being just 21 years old, is in his 4th year as a starter in the Euroleague. Below is the link to his draftcity.com profile. I am not clear whether he has been switched from PG to SG or vice versa, but at 6'5" he has good size (although evidently lacks strength). It also says that he may not be quick enough to guard PG. He is supposed to be a good defender, though.
> 
> Does anyone on this board know anything more about him? Draftcity.com has him listed as a possible late 2nd round pick.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah I know Zissis , I've seen him play few times this season and few times before.

against my team (Maccabi) he had a 9 points 13 asts (tons in Euro scales - leader has about 6 asts per game , so it's like an nba player having a 25 ast game).
He has the smart pg play in him , he has tools to attack himself , he's a good defender , intense and tough , and has high BB level experience.
I can't say how he'll deal with nba gaurds , in physical turms , though I tend to think he'll be fine simpley cause he has the will. His 3p shooting has not been great lately , but he can definitely shoot.He just had a 22 pt game in euroleague with 4-6 3p.

Bottomline - if we can get him mid to low 2nd round that would be a great pick imo.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

*Eddie Basden, Charlotte*
Eddie Basden on Charlotte has to get a look as one of the best lock-down defenders (as well as team defenders) in NCAA right now. He's like a Trenton Hassell, except with even better defensive instincts. I watched him play in one game Charlotte played last year, and the guy is a ballhawk... really physical, good length.

In 04-05, Basden is 16 points and 8.5 rebounds with 3.7 assists and 3.3 steals. 

Plus, I think he's kind of a sleeper, one of those Linton Johnson undrafted free agents. 

I know drawing inferences to Hassell and Johnson aren't really terrific, but with 3.3 steals a game, Basden is 3rd in steals in all of college ball.

Eddie stands at 6'5".

*Ronnie Brewer, Arkansas*

He's a 6-7 sophomore, Arkansas' star this year. He leads his team with defense, and is a complete all-around stud.

Leads his team in scoring and rebounds as well as nabbing 2.6 steals a game.

In a loss against Illinois, Brewer had 21 points, 4 rebounds, and 4 steals. I remember watching that game; I think he was often guarding Luther Head, if I remember, and Head went 2-7 from the field, 1 of 5 from the arc. In general, Illinois shot poorly that game; Arkansas was a very decent defense that we had to respect.

I'd watch out for Ronnie Brewer to make a big splash soon.


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

Funny thing about Basden is you couldnt pay him money to play defense in high school. He has really matured since then. I hope he can succeed in the NBA like West is doing right now.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Basden has really turned his fortunes around. I remember when he was going to go to UMass. He will more than likely be a 2nd round pick, but he would be a nice pickup if possible. He is possibly the C-USA POY this year. He's definitely the DPOY. I think he's better than Trenton Hassell personally, because Hassell dominated the OVC (which in no way compares to the C-USA talentwise). Basden is also a physical mofo. Strong as heck.

Also Ronnie Brewer is going to be a Point Guard, not a SG.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

now I have a question 

what is the point of looking for a good backup defensive 2 guard , when they are virtually immaterial in winning games .

games about 80% of them are won or lost in the last 5 minutes, if the guys you are talking about aren't good enough to unseat gordon or kirk its pointless to bring them up , because they wont be playing when its time to make a difference.

these guys are no more important than any backup player would be at any position merely a change of pace , does anyone honestly expect kirk to sit for them or gordon?, is this really expected out of basden, brewer , muhammed , or some other names thrown about, its nice and all but the bigger issue is still getting a starter to defend the Paul pierces at crunch time and deciding if we were to make decision , who would fill that spot next to him .

can anyone honestly say they see themselves picking gordon , and then eddie basden alongside him to close out games?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

happygrinch said:


> now I have a question
> 
> what is the point of looking for a good backup defensive 2 guard , when they are virtually immaterial in winning games .
> 
> *games about 80% of them are won or lost in the last 5 minutes*, if the guys you are talking about aren't good enough to unseat gordon or kirk its pointless to bring them up , because *they wont be playing when its time to make a difference.*


happygrinch: 

I'm not picking on you here, but you stumbled onto a recent pet peeve of mine (I've seen several people post this recently, mostly because of Gordon). Games are not won and lost in the last 5 minutes. This is a myth. Games are won and lost in the last 48 minutes. 

The first two points are as critical as the last two. The first defensive stop of the game is as critical as the last. Every single minute of the game is the "time to make a difference" to the outcome of that game.

My point is, a team need is a team need. The solution to that team need, be it applied more thoroughly in the 2nd quarter or the 4th, is still important. Whether a tall, defensive minded shooting guard picked up in the second round of the draft can unseat Hinrich or Gordon in the 4th quarter is not really the issue. The issue is, over the course of a 48 minute basketball game, does the acquisition of such a player make the Bulls a better team. If the answer is yes, then keep sending out the search party.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> happygrinch:
> 
> I'm not picking on you here, but you stumbled onto a recent pet peeve of mine (I've seen several people post this recently, mostly because of Gordon). Games are not won and lost in the last 5 minutes. This is a myth. Games are won and lost in the last 48 minutes.
> 
> ...


my point with saying simply that ....most games are decided within the last 5 min. , a shot that rattles in and out in the 1st quarter generally has little impact on the game unless it could have stopped a run or kept one going, most games settle into a flow in which a team gets and keeps a lead for most of the game but its usually not an insurmountable amount , games that are relatively close going into the last 5 minutes aren't going to be decided by a 2nd rounder not good enough to sieze min. enough to play later , for a couple of reasons .

1. being rookie defense , is generally not very good and if it were so very good it could really defend the t-macs and the kobe's ( the players we supposedly need guarding ...then maybe they are in fact good enough to play closer min. but outside of tony allen and he is an outside shot(he absolutely does not play ahead of paul pierce at shooting guard but he is the best defensive guard in the draft) at that i dont see one guy in the nba from the last draft who can play defense well enough to be a defensive stopper, and even he isn't at that level.

2. rookies make rookie mistakes in the last 5 min. when execution is key they just dont make it on the court for any reason beyond being 1 of the top 5 players on the team unless the team cares more about their development than they do about wins.

the reason why games are usually won and lost are because your top 5 didn't play as well as theirs did, we have lost to the celts twice because when it came right down to it we couldn't stop paul pierce when we needed to . its why kobe's team usually wins , AI's , its not so often teams can count on blowout wins , and in the games that dont the bulls are going to look to what happened in the last 5 min. and they aren't going to look to what AD did in the 3rd quarter or what adrian griffin accomplished in the 2nd .

thats just the way it is.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Grinch - I said defensive cause thats what we need. I did not mean for the last minutes of games (not all games r close) , I meant to widen our core.
I just meant the best thing would be to find a good defensive wing player , for the longrun! 

Defensive aside - what u mean is guys like Marquis (undrafted) ,Krover,Mobely,Bowen(undrafted) , even Redd- 2nd rounders , can't help the team on the longrun?!
The fact that we might score on 2nd or undrafted guys can really help the team , or maybe u think otherwise???


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

bullet said:


> Grinch - I said defensive cause thats what we need. I did not mean for the last minutes of games (not all games r close) , I meant to widen our core.
> I just meant the best thing would be to find a good defensive wing player , for the longrun!
> 
> Defensive aside - what u mean is guys like Marquis (undrafted) ,Krover,Mobely,Bowen(undrafted) , even Redd- 2nd rounders , can't help the team on the longrun?!
> The fact that we might score on 2nd or undrafted guys can really help the team , or maybe u think otherwise???



do you really expect a 2nd round pick's defense to be so much better than adrian griffin's, if we score on a 2nd round selection and he is elite at some aspect of his game defense or otherwise its the exception not the norm , heck generally if a player were selected where the bulls are selecting if the season ended today it would be even $ he doesn't make it to x-mas .

no one is saying dont make a pick , but I am saying if the guy isn't good enough to be on the court at the end of games , he isn't going to have a real impact on the bulls fortunes , how many games can you say a decent back up wins for his team where you can say if not for him i'm sure we wouldn't have pulled it out today.

if you are lucky you can say 1 for each player at all positions , making any player in that kind of position a minimal move.

if a guy is killing kirk(the guard in question because he is defending the big 2's) , skiles isn't about to bench him for pike or griffin , can you honestly say you can see eddie basden making kirk grab some pine time ?

i cant , my point is the guy who comes in to play defense because kirk cant handle his assignment has to a good player not just a defender , not likely with what would be the 49th pick if the draft were today, he would have to be way above what a normal rookie is , in fact with the exception of marquis daniels none of the players you listed had any impact at all their 1st seasons and none of them made it on the court because they were so good on defense , some can play D, but all got serious time because of their offense, except bowen , but it took years for his defense to be good enough to make up for his lack of offense.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Tyronn Lue, at a very young stage in his career, in his first significant playing time of his career, is famous for "shutting down" AI in the playoffs. I remember watching that, and being amazed. He was really one crazy motivated guy.

Ron Artest was playing starting NBA-level defense his rookie year. True, he was a first rounder, but still.

Tayshaun Prince, picked in the late first round (and seen as a 2nd rounder by most), came out playing NBA-level defense his rookie year and NBA starting level defense by his second year.

Trenton Hassell was playing starting NBA-level defense his rookie year for sure. He was no Kobe-stopper or anything along those lines, but he kept most guys under their season average on most nights.

Gilbert Arenas was known for his defense before his scoring his rookie year, averaging almost 1.5 steals per game in 25 mpg. Today, he's known as one of the league's elite defenders.

Trevor Ariza, this year, is one of New York's better defenders and is in the top 20 in the league for steals per 48. True, he doesn't play many minutes (<20 mpg), but what does that mean? In those minutes he DOES get, he's a ballhawk.

You know, Chris Duhon plays pretty gritty defense. And offensively, he is a serious and necessary contributor.

The point is, even if a guy doesn't pan out at an NBA level for a year, there's nothing wrong with taking a Basden if he's going to pan out into a defensive specialist in limited minutes. We need those 10-15 mpg guys who can have the occasional 25 minute night, and we can't always have an Adrian Griffin around to do that. Younger guys are more athletic and play with more intensity because they have something to prove.

Basden can offer that, and can be more valuable than looking for a defensive vet in a 1-year contract.


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## Bolts (Nov 7, 2003)

*Ummm,

Doug Christie doesn't seem too happy in Orlando.

Any Takers???*


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## svanacore (Nov 21, 2004)

Showtyme, steals are an overrated part of defense. Look at AI.

In fact, steals are very risky and can lead to getting burned.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

svanacore said:


> Showtyme, steals are an overrated part of defense. Look at AI.
> 
> In fact, steals are very risky and can lead to getting burned.


AI is one of the best on-the-ball defenders in the league. He has always been an exceptional defender, beginning in Georgetown. I watch a lot of Sixer games; he's a beast on D and if he ever gets torched, it's only due to his height (the guy is closer to 5'10" than his listed 6'0") or his weight (probably not more than 175, gets easily posted up).

It's true that steals are an overrated part of a defense, but at the same time, you can't be getting a LOT of steals and be a completely BAD defender. 

Keeping your man to a low FG% is the day-in day-out defense, but steals are an important stat because they make a direct impact on the score of the game. Like interceptions in football, often times gambling with coverage can result in getting burned, but when you make the gamble correctly and successfully, it's a huge swing in the score.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> AI is one of the best on-the-ball defenders in the league. He has always been an exceptional defender, beginning in Georgetown. I watch a lot of Sixer games; he's a beast on D and if he ever gets torched, it's only due to his height (the guy is closer to 5'10" than his listed 6'0") or his weight (probably not more than 175, gets easily posted up).
> 
> It's true that steals are an overrated part of a defense, but at the same time, you can't be getting a LOT of steals and be a completely BAD defender.
> 
> Keeping your man to a low FG% is the day-in day-out defense, but steals are an important stat because they make a direct impact on the score of the game. Like interceptions in football, often times gambling with coverage can result in getting burned, but when you make the gamble correctly and successfully, it's a huge swing in the score.



AI is now a very good on the ball defender , he was not his 1st 2-3 seasons in the league.

also none of the players you listed in the previous post were anywhere near where the bulls would pick this year (#49) why? because its unrealistic to expect a player drafted there to be a good contributor immediately, if it were he would have been drafted much earlier.

most of the players you put up were taken give or take few picks around 20-25, lue taken #23 was actually in his 2nd season when matched up against AI in the finals

basden at #49 cant be considered a serious prospect to be a consistent contributor ...its hard enough to get 2nd rounders who can even play at this level past 45 its much much harder when teams try to draft on need for immediate results , and drafting for longterm prospect does little good as well , there is no guarentee the bulls will even have a need for him or a similar player , I dont believe the bulls are configured for a long term team at this point and will have to trade either ben or kirk at some point .


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

tiredchick said:


> Eddie Basden (Charlotte, Sr., 6'5")


Badsen took Con' USA POY and DPOY - Good call tiredchick!

http://www.conferenceusa.com/sports/mbball/release.asp?RELEASE_ID=7822


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## BullsBaller (Oct 6, 2002)

Were talking about just defense right? Then, what about Kelvin Torbert from MSU. He MOST likely won't get drafted. He is only 6'4'' but he has a 40'' vertical and has a built upper body allowing him to play bigger than he actually is. I know his stats don't say much but he is a phenomenal athlete and has been MSU's Defensive Player of the Year for 3 years in a row. If someone ala Paxson could push him, he could definitley be a help to this team.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

yodurk said:


> If we want a rookie, then Pax should browse potential 2nd round picks for which he could make a small trade (i.e. future 2nd rounder). Julius Hodge comes to mind. I would definitely want someone well-schooled in defensive fundamentals, ala Hinrich, which would probably be a 4-year player somewhere.
> 
> More than likely though, we won't want to go after a rookie, unless Pax truly feels he's found a diamond in the rough. I see him using part of the MLE to find a Devin Brown or Raja Bell type player. Someone who can basically jump right into the rotation immediately.


I haven't watched him much this year but I remember the knock on him last year was his weigh. Today I see him, he's still a stick! He looks emaciated. Hopefully he can put on some muscle.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I'm glad this thread was bumped, because I was at the DePaul-Louisville last weekend thinking about this as I watched Francisco Garcia play...let me tell you this, Garcia is a player. The guy is LONG and very athletic & quick; he covered alot of ground defensively and reminded me of Doug Christie (thin and wiry defense). He had a poor shooting night, but interestingly enough, he's more known for his shooting. I was extremely impressed with his court vision and ballhandling as well. I know he's a 1st rounder most likely, but I would love this guy if we could get our hands on him.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

yodurk said:


> I'm glad this thread was bumped, because I was at the DePaul-Louisville last weekend thinking about this as I watched Francisco Garcia play...let me tell you this, Garcia is a player. The guy is LONG and very athletic & quick; he covered alot of ground defensively and reminded me of Doug Christie (thin and wiry defense). He had a poor shooting night, but interestingly enough, he's more known for his shooting. I was extremely impressed with his court vision and ballhandling as well. I know he's a 1st rounder most likely, but I would love this guy if we could get our hands on him.


Same here.

I love Garcia. He plays with heart , has skill , can even play PG with his size , and most of the time a good shooter.

Late 1st rounder I guess - but If Blazers could get 22nd pick from NJ for Eddie Gill (Cut immedietly) , who knows...


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

2 more possibilities , if the go to the draft:

Vincent Grier 

Curtis Sumpter


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

As it's been bumped, I have to point out that Eddie Basden is on tonight, and if you want to see his defensive skills, you can watch him guard Julius Hodge, one of the most explosive (albeit inconsistent) guards in the nation.

Basden is my boy. I love lock-down man defenders in college ball, where coaches often (even ALWAYS) use team defense. College ball is a team game more than the NBA, and so team defense is important.

But Hodge is the kind of guy that can take over a game, and Basden is the kind of guy that can shut him down.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/ncaatourney05/news/story?id=2015862



> This should be a great matchup between Julius Hodge, the 2004 ACC player of the year who needs just 10 points to reach 2,000 for his career, and *Eddie Basden, who many believe is the national defensive player of the year.*
> 
> His defense aside, Basden also is part of a powerful three-pronged offensive punch for Charlotte. He chips in 15.3 ppg and 8.4 rpg, complementing the team's leading scorer (Curtis Withers at 18.1 ppg and 8.3 rpg) and the squad's best perimeter threat, Brendan Plavich (13.7 ppg, range out to the next county line).


On the entire page describing today's matchups, Basden was the only mention of defense at ALL.

I'd trade AD to get this kid, even if we had to take back some mediocre salary (not a lot, but say $5 mil that stays on the cap for a few years). Players that come out of great defensive team are generally at least very coachable in terms of defense in the NBA. But players that are defensive standouts in the NCAA? It's a wealth of defensive potential in the NBA. The way they approach the game is just different. A player that looks at the basketball court and visualizes great defensive plays, not high-flying dunks.

Let's find a pick somewhere to get this guy. We might even be in a position to get him with a 2nd rounder, but somehow I doubt it. Defensive guys like that tend to go early in the 2nd or even late in the 1st (Trent, John Salmons, Tayshaun, Najera, a few others).


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> As it's been bumped, I have to point out that Eddie Basden is on tonight, and if you want to see his defensive skills, you can watch him guard Julius Hodge, one of the most explosive (albeit inconsistent) guards in the nation.
> 
> Basden is my boy. I love lock-down man defenders in college ball, where coaches often (even ALWAYS) use team defense. College ball is a team game more than the NBA, and so team defense is important.
> 
> ...



Actually, he's on right now, and Julius Hodge is having a wonderful game. =(

But that just shows me how awesome a fired-up Hodge can be. Maybe we should have paid Kobe Bryant to just punch Eddie Robinson in the balls.

Basden is having a decent game himself, and Charlotte is keeping it close. About 8 minutes left in the half.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Another guy I really like and playing great in NCAA tourny is Bobby Jones from washington. But I guess he'll let Tre and maybe Nate leave to get more minutes in a team loaded with good wing players .

He's a tough defender , and this season even developed a decent 3p shot (0.508 30-59).he's only playing 25 minutes behind Tre and along Brandon Roy.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Allow me to just reiterate how much I really want the Bulls to make a move for Francisco Garcia. Seems every mock draft I see only has him in the mid to late 1st round, and if that's the case, then I could see the Bulls making a move. The guy has insane length as a SG at 6'8...he's a lights out shooter, and from watching him play live, I was very impressed with his all-around game. He can defend, he plays hard, he's a fantastic passer (made some sick passes against DePaul a few weeks ago), and can even run the point in spot. If the Bulls can get their hands on him, it fills basically every backcourt need all in one player: 3-point shooting, a LONG backcourt defender, and another reliable ballhandler/passer. As you can tell, I'm very high on this guy. I wonder what it would take to get his draft rights?


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Allow me to just reiterate how much I really want the Bulls to make a move for Francisco Garcia. Seems every mock draft I see only has him in the mid to late 1st round, and if that's the case, then I could see the Bulls making a move. The guy has insane length as a SG at 6'8...he's a lights out shooter, and from watching him play live, I was very impressed with his all-around game. He can defend, he plays hard, he's a fantastic passer (made some sick passes against DePaul a few weeks ago), and can even run the point in spot. If the Bulls can get their hands on him, it fills basically every backcourt need all in one player: 3-point shooting, a LONG backcourt defender, and another reliable ballhandler/passer. As you can tell, I'm very high on this guy. I wonder what it would take to get his draft rights?


Totally agree.

Right now he's leading Louisville with 13 points (3-5 3p) to a 12 point lead over #1 seed Washington.

He'd be great for us , but it seems he's playing himself into the higher picks , which are much harder to get.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

bullet said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> Right now he's leading Louisville with 13 points (3-5 3p) to a 12 point lead over #1 seed Washington.
> 
> He'd be great for us , but it seems he's playing himself into the higher picks , which are much harder to get.


Garcia finished with 23 points (5-8 from 3 , some from nba range) 8-16 from the field to lead his team over Washington!!

Big game Fransisco


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

bullet said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> Right now he's leading Louisville with 13 points (3-5 3p) to a 12 point lead over #1 seed Washington.
> 
> He'd be great for us , but it seems he's playing himself into the higher picks , which are much harder to get.


Yeah, I have a hard time seeing him falling outside the lottery...the guy is just too good and he has NBA potential written all over him. I could see Orlando using their late lottery pick to grab him, as they also could use some size and 3-point shooting in the backcourt (the Christie project hasn't worked out).


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Alan Anderson with an Impressive game - 17 pts (3-4 3p) , 8 rbds 2 asts and 5 stls (5 to's too) , as they win against Duke.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

HKF said:


> I am supposed to write up another mock draft, but I'm not making that mistake again. I'm just going to wait till the NCAA tournament is over and the draft deadline comes up and then write mine. I think he personally should come out, because this is the role player draft (not a bad one, just no superstars for the most part). I think he could make a team or be picked in the first round. Next year if you come out you're taking a huge risk. I mean I have counted 10 guaranteed lotto picks next year:
> 
> 
> 1. Greg Oden, 7'0 C, HS Jr.
> ...


HKF , you might be very right about Hassan entering Draft:

Arizona's Adams to enter NBA Draft without agent  

A hell of a pick if we can somehow get him in the 2nd round!

And this quote by Adams is for Sloth :biggrin: :



> "I can score," Adams told CBS SportsLine.com on Wednesday, before the Wildcats defeated Oklahoma State in the Sweet 16. "Last year I led the team in scoring -- that wasn't nothing for me. Scoring's the easiest part for anybody. It's all about doing other things for your team."


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Another player testing draft waters is Kentucky Kelenna Azubuike . We can trade for him in 2nd round , very good athlete , good defender.

And other SG's entering to lower different SG's (so we have better veriety to trade for in the 2nd if we want to) are McCants and Antoine Wright.

Also Alex Acker of Pepperdine is in (good shooter)

I don't know much about JR Morris of Seaton Hall - but he's in too.


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## southpark (Jul 5, 2003)

bullet, we dont have any draft picks this yr...our 2nd rounder goes to houston or utah for teh bryce drew trade a few yrs ago....


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Grier and Sumpter will be returning to college, however, if someone can get Hassan Adams in the 2nd round, you do it and give him a guarantee that you will sign him to a contract. The reason why is, he's like the next Tony Allen. He plays with tremendous energy.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

southpark said:


> bullet, we dont have any draft picks this yr...our 2nd rounder goes to houston or utah for teh bryce drew trade a few yrs ago....


I know southpark. It's based on the fact that 2nd rounders often get bought for cash considerations , especially when a team has no pick the same year.Not that I really expect JR to spend or anything...
and also some of the guys mentioned may turnout undafted , some of those are good (ala Marquis)


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

What about someone like Ebi Ere? He played in Australia two years ago after graduating from Oklahoma, and showed to be a decent enough scorer putting up about 20ppg. He has a 'burly' body ('6"5, 215) if you will, and is athletic. I assume you're after a guy with a bit of seasoning, this guy has played on some quality basketball teams (Oklahoma, Finals MVP snub for the Sydney Kings). I would guess he's in Europe at some point now.

nbadraft.net profile
NBL.com profile


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

not going to be available to the beloved. also, not exactly a big guard. but, if i could draft any guard in college to cover nba wings it would be hkf's avatar. i saw deron absolutely shut down mccants, garcia, and stoudomire in sucessive games. talk about versatile defense in pressure situations. . . if this guy can cover those three, theres a reasonable chance he will develop into an nba lock down defender.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Does anyone know Tiras Wade . Personally never seen him play???


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

bullet said:


> Does anyone know Tiras Wade . Personally never seen him play???


He's not a defensive big guard, but man this guy can fill it up. 6'6. I don't know if he will stay in the draft, but he is 23 years old, so he might. He's really good. He was a late bloomer and turned into an offensive machine at East Tennessee State and then Louisiana-Lafayette. Louisville game planned him nicely in the first round of the tournament, but if you saw the Sun Belt championship, I think he had 36 points.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

HKF said:


> He's not a defensive big guard, but man this guy can fill it up. 6'6. I don't know if he will stay in the draft, but he is 23 years old, so he might. He's really good. He was a late bloomer and turned into an offensive machine at East Tennessee State and then Louisiana-Lafayette. Louisville game planned him nicely in the first round of the tournament, but if you saw the Sun Belt championship, I think he had 36 points.


Woh , got HKF so early.

Thanx for the info .

I agree about Adams. He's so strong and athletic , and we'll probably see it in the predraft tests. Like Allen who was 3rd overall (after Snyder and Humphries if I remember correctly , maybe he was even 2nd)

What do you think are the chances he stays in the draft?? (since next year is supposed to be a strong one , but it might not turnout this way if there is a new age limit of 20)


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

bullet said:


> Woh , got HKF so early.
> 
> Thanx for the info .
> 
> ...


Tough to say and I'll tell you why. Lute Olsen is going to try and guilt Hassan into coming back to school the way he tried with Igoudala. Even if Hassan wasn't a first round pick, I guarantee a team would sign him to a deal because look at some of the wings in this league who aren't worth spit. I mean Kendall Gill, Tamar Slay, Qyntel Woods, Matt Carroll. He'll find a role somewhere, I think as a third guard. 

Although, there are a lot of advantages to coming back to school, if you're Hassan. One, you get to be the man and play your natural SG position with hopefully an improved Shakur. Two, you get plenty of AZ sorority babes who are going to want to make your last season memorable. I thought that was the only reason to go to college many a times, during my years. Three, he can improve his stock by proving he can consistently shoot from the perimeter. I think if he works hard (and that's never really been a problem with him), he'll be successful. He's a really good guy and fun person. I like his personality a lot.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

HKF said:


> Two, you get plenty of AZ sorority babes who are going to want to make your last season memorable. I thought that was the only reason to go to college many a times, during my years.


Are you talking from personal experience? :groucho:


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Greg Ostertag! said:


> Are you talking from personal experience? :groucho:


I wish. Although, I admit Arizona and Arizona State have a high babe factor quotient, working in it's favor.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

HKF said:


> I wish. Although, I admit Arizona and Arizona State have a high babe factor quotient, working in it's favor.


As a current ASU student, I can confirm this, big time. And the worst part is my girlfriend still lives on the East Coast. Every time I go out at night, I have to wonder if I've lost my mind for keeping up a long distance relationship with these kind of women just everywhere. Damn!

Back to Adams, HKF, I see Adams as the new QRich when he hits the league. I know he's an inch shorter, but he's got that outside shot and the same kamakazi rebounding mentality.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> As a current ASU student, I can confirm this, big time. And the worst part is my girlfriend still lives on the East Coast. Every time I go out at night, I have to wonder if I've lost my mind for keeping up a long distance relationship with these kind of women just everywhere. Damn!
> 
> Back to Adams, HKF, I see Adams as the new QRich when he hits the league. I know he's an inch shorter, but he's got that outside shot and the same kamakazi rebounding mentality.


I don't think he's going to be shooting jumpers like Q-Rich. His best attribute is his slashing ability and ability to finish at the rim. I think he'll best utilized in a transition style of basketball attacking the basket. Think Freddie Jones, Tony Allen, Desmond Mason like.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

HKF said:


> I don't think he's going to be shooting jumpers like Q-Rich. His best attribute is his slashing ability and ability to finish at the rim. I think he'll best utilized in a transition style of basketball attacking the basket. Think Freddie Jones, Tony Allen, Desmond Mason like.


Tony Allen's a good comparison. A little undersized, strong defender. Actually, the C's LOVE Allen and are willing to put him on anyone in the league to do a lock-up job.

Adams... interesting stuff. I'd love to see him come out and go undrafted, so the Bulls have a fair shot at him. I doubt that would happen, though.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Latest on Adams:



> Olson now predicts Adams will stay
> Just more than a week after head coach Lute Olson predicted that junior guard Hassan Adams would leave school early for the NBA, Olson said he thinks Adams will be back for his senior season.
> 
> After talking to NBA scouts in the past week, Olson relayed that not one scout considered Adams ready for the NBA.
> ...


http://wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/98/129/02_1.html 


And AzubuIke signs with an Agent - nbadraftnews 

He's a good Athlete and defender , And his J has improved , I'd love to hear HKF take of him , since he might turnout a 2nd rounder , easier to trade for.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Francisco Garcia makes it official and declares for the draft:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2032788

He could go anywhere from the 10th pick to 25th IMO...if he slips a little bit, Pax may be interested (I was actually at a DePaul-Louisville game a few months ago with Pax scouting a few seats away from me). Garcia would be great for this team. Alot of heart and hustle, great size and length from the backcourt, terrific ballhandler/passer, and solid 3-point shooter. I would definitely sacrifice Chris Duhon if it meant getting Garcia in return. Unlikely I know.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Another guy I just read about in Draftcity Portsmouth Invitational Tournament analysis is  Willie Jenkins - he is surprisingly good in the tourny , good size (6-6 , 215) , good defense , Can hit the J , tough , has handle and can score.Not top athlete.Sounds interesting , to me at least.



> Willie Jenkins, Tennessee Tech
> 
> One of the nicest surprises of the tournament. Jenkins might be one of the only SG’s here that aren’t undersized (he’s 6-6 and has a great body), can really shoot and plays very good defense on top of that. He was handling the ball an awful lot today, and he looked fine doing so, usually making good decisions and opening things up for his teammates. His game is still a little rough around the edges, he’s probably used to scoring almost whenever he pleases in the Ohio Valley Conference, but he adapted himself quite well. He’s a physical player that doesn’t back down from anyone, he drived fearlessly to the hoop a number of times and drew defenders before kicking it out to the open man. When he tried to finish himself he got into a bit of trouble, though, as he doesn’t quite have the athletic ability needed to finish amongst the trees. In warm-ups and the game itself he showed off a very nice stroke, which is obviously a huge plus considering the position he’ll be playing. His game doesn’t really scream out to you at first, but after you watch him closely for a bit you notice that he’s a very solid all around player that does a bit of everything. He played excellent defense on the very athletic Omar Thomas as well. He had some tough shots rim out for him, but all in all he helped himself big time with the way he played here at Portsmouth and definitely showed that he belonged even though he was a last minute invite to the camp. He could be an interesting guy to invite to Chicago, it would be nice to see him beat people up a little and then step out and knock down the three. What’s even better about him is that he’s not a selfish player, he could make some noise if he falls on the right team.


http://www.draftcity.com/viewarticle.php?a=153 

Seems just like one of the guys to go undrafted and be good for us.

Anyone know him - please comment??


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

bullet said:


> Another guy I just read about in Draftcity Portsmouth Invitational Tournament analysis is  Willie Jenkins - he is surprisingly good in the tourny , good size (6-6 , 215) , good defense , Can hit the J , tough , has handle and can score.Not top athlete.Sounds interesting , to me at least.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, sounds like a player...and better yet, he will probably go undrafted since he's so low-profile. Could be another Marquis Daniels? If that's the case, then Pax will truly look like a genius if he picks this guy up.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Another guy I really hope our scouts have an eye on is Uros Tripkovic.

He's still 18 and he's the absolute *best* young shooter in Euro BB at the moment. I'd even say best by far. I only saw him play 3 times - but I'll tell ya he can hit it from every angle anywher on court. It's just pure shooting natural talent ala Peja.
He's 6-5 and is still very weak (180-190??) , but he plays as strong as he can , and he has the whole offensive package. He has handle , he can slash , he can Pass , and is very athletic in Euro standards. He's so young so we can bet on him getting stronger. He is a fighter and he always believes in his shot.
As much as I love Spanish Rudy Fernandez I can say from what I've seen (I've seen more of Rudy) I think Tripkovic will grow to be better. Both have very high BB IQ but Tripkovic natural shooting ability is of the kind you really don't see to often. Again - *absolute top shooter!!* 

I don't think he declared yet , but good chances he will , and I'm not sure where he falls , but if we can get him we should. He's far from being a defensive stopper , he has to get so much stronger , but the talent level given the age is amazing.also , he has lots of minutes of experience in the Euroleague - the highest level of BB in Euro BB. at 18 y/o - it's impressive.

From Draftcity scouting the Adriatic league:



> UROS TRIPKOVIC 6-5 SG 1986 Serbia&Montenegro
> KK Partizan 13.3 ppg 1.0 rpg 1.6 apg 47.4% FG 44.9% 3FG 76.9% FT
> 
> This was a great season for Uros, his first as a part of his team's regular rotation, and he was just great despite his age. Tripkovic is a natural born scorer with great shooting mechanics. He's full of self-confidence and is probably the best shooter of all the European prospects. He also showed good penetration ability and very good court vision. He has a killer instinct that hasn't been seen in this part of the world from such a young player since Drazen Petrovic. He is a good athlete, but a bit undersized for the 2 spot and very skinny, which is his biggest weakness. His shot selection is rather bad, but that is normal for such a young player. His defense will need a lot of work, but he has good footwork and a solid wingspan to become a good defender. He will probably not declare for this year's draft and that's a smart decision. As it looks right now, he's a lock for the first round whenever he declares, and has the potential to be a lottery pick


http://www.draftcity.com/viewarticle.php?a=154 

Draftcity player profile

nbadraft profile


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

BTW - *Jackie Manuel* had a very nice Portsmouth tourny showing offensive skills he has'nt shown in NC cause of all the star scorers around him there.
He scored 18 ppg.



> Manuel really looked like a sore thumb on the roster sheet that was handed out where all the player’s stats are listed from this past season. The reason for that is obvious, as he played for the team that won the National Championship and let others focusing on scoring while he did all the little things to help his team out. That wasn’t the case here at Portsmouth, where he showed off some offensive skills that no one (except maybe his teammates) knew he had in him beforehand. He was probably the most athletic player at this tournament, or at least the player that showed off the most athleticism in every thing he did. Manuel probably earned himself an invite to Chicago, but he’ll have to work on his stroke in the next two months to show that he can play in the NBA as a SG


http://www.draftcity.com/viewarticle.php?a=155 

http://www.nbadraft.net/2005PIT.asp 

We all knew he's a great defender , and he just added some surprising offense to his name , and he's very likely to go undrafted.

Here's some more from day 2 recap on Manuel:



> The star of the game, and probably of the entire day and maybe tournament so far. Manuel showed off things that we never ever got to see out of him at UNC with the role he was playing. I thought he was a pretty athletic kid before today, but I had no idea just HOW incredibly athletic he is. Manuel was flying all over the place today, getting up to block shots (4) emphatically, finish alleyoop passes (from Sorrentine), bounce back off the floor from his own personal trampoline for offensive rebounds, pinning shots on the backboard after he already trailed by a good 10 feet, finishing the break with a powerful tomahawk jam, etc etc. He was easily the most athletic player we’ve seen so far, but he also played some outstanding defense, hit a 3 (maybe with a toe on the line but I didn’t think so), put the ball on the floor and finished, there was simply nothing that he didn’t show. I had to restrain myself numerous times from standing up and going nuts after he made yet another incredible play, reminding myself that I am sitting in the press box and we’re not supposed to do that unfortunately. The fact that he managed to play the way he did just 3 days off winning a national championship makes this even more impressive I thought. Manuel put himself firmly on the NBA draft radar with the skills he showed today, leapfrogging a couple of 2 guards who didn’t show up at Portsmouth and maybe even doing enough to garner an invite to Chicago if he plays well enough in his next game.


http://www.draftcity.com/viewarticle.php?a=148

Bottomline is - If Jackie really shows offensive abilities , even only decent ones , he might be worth a try as an undrafted prospect. His body and athletisizm is nba level , so is his defense. and now we can add offense?!


Updated draftcity player profile 

And we know Pax likes players from winning programs!


So to some it up , here's my reasoning for Pax to try him out:

1. Excellent defensive wing!!
2. good size (but not great) if we add his long arms.
3. Very good athlete.
4. Played in a winning enviorment (as Pax likes) and gave himself up for team.
5. Surprisingly has some offensive skills.
6. *Likely to go undrafted* - so he might be for free!


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I don't know much about Jackie Manuel, other than his name being thrown out now and then here. Is he about 6'5? And I don't mind if he has some limitations on offense, as long as he has the work ethic to improve them.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

Jackie is an incredible defender and a great athlete.

However, I don't care what happened at the Portsmouth tourney, he has absolutely no offensive game.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

The Truth said:


> Jackie is an incredible defender and a great athlete.
> 
> However, I don't care what happened at the Portsmouth tourney, he has absolutely no offensive game.


Yeah , great defender.

And I truely trust the draftcity scouting reports - they said he showed offense , and in an interview he said in NC he did what he was told - with all the talent around him , he was a role player. But I guess his offense is mostly Athletisizm dependent , and they reported he showed some ability to hit the J at times!

And Yodurk - He works as hard as it gets , thats what he does...


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

bullet said:


> Yeah , great defender.
> 
> And I truely trust the draftcity scouting reports - they said he showed offense , and in an interview he said in NC he did what he was told - with all the talent around him , he was a roll player. But I guess his offense is mostly Athletisizm dependent , and they reported he showed some ability to hit the J at times!
> 
> And Yodurk - He works as hard as it gets , thats what he does...



He never showed the ability to hit the J in his 4 years at UNC...I know he was playing a role, but it was absolutly apparent that he had no J. Regardless of his role, if he had any ability to knock down the outside jumper at all, UNC would have given him the green light when the opposing team consistently left him wide open from the outside.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

The Truth said:


> He never showed the ability to hit the J in his 4 years at UNC...I know he was playing a role, but it was absolutly apparent that he had no J. Regardless of his role, if he had any ability to knock down the outside jumper at all, UNC would have given him the green light when the opposing team consistently left him wide open from the outside.


Well , I agree his J looked quite bad in NC. But to be fair with Jackie we gotta take into account he's playing with an nba talent level team. I mean McCants , Felton , Jawad , Marvin and May are all future nba players , and talented scorers. When you know your job has nothing to do with offense since there are 5 guys on the team that do it better one also lose confidence in his shot since usually it's not his to take. Now I'm not saying I expect him to turn in to a Peja kind of shooter :biggrin: , but I think he can reach the level where his 18 footer is decent , and draftcity said he did just that. Due to top level athletic ability he also gets some scrappy scores like put backs and fastbreaks. Personally - if undrafted , I'd check him out.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Not a defensive stopper , But another good SG enters the draft in Matt Walsh - nice offensive player , very good shooter.Not a good defender though.

nbadraft.net profile


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

bullet said:


> Well , I agree his J looked quite bad in NC. But to be fair with Jackie we gotta take into account he's playing with an nba talent level team. I mean McCants , Felton , Jawad , Marvin and May are all future nba players , and talented scorers. When you know your job has nothing to do with offense since there are 5 guys on the team that do it better one also lose confidence in his shot since usually it's not his to take. Now I'm not saying I expect him to turn in to a Peja kind of shooter :biggrin: , but I think he can reach the level where his 18 footer is decent , and draftcity said he did just that. Due to top level athletic ability he also gets some scrappy scores like put backs and fastbreaks. Personally - if undrafted , I'd check him out.


I would definitely check him out if he is undrafted. Don't get me wrong, I respect the hell out of his defensive ability, and I agree that just maybe possibly perhaps Manuel could develop a decent 18 footer. However, I am reluctant to believe draftcity that he's already got his jumper working.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Another high profile wing to join draft , That means 1 extra undrafted - Martell Webster

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/huskies/2002242115_webster15.html


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Another very Interesting prospect:

Orien Greene 

I read the draftcity scouting report and he sounds like a very good fit for us , has PG skills and is a good defender and athlete.



> An extremely unique prospect in this draft, one of a kind in terms of the size, skills, athleticism and talent he possesses at his position.
> Greene is a 6-4 pass-first PG with outstanding athletic ability, a great wingspan and fantastic skills on the defensive end. His physical attributes alone should get him quite a few looks, as he is built extremely well and has all the size, strength and length you could ask for from a player at his position.


Draftcity profile 

An undrafted sleeper???


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Check out nbadraft.net Early entry list - There are 44 declared , now some may leave by May 21st deadline and are just checking their stock , and also some will Join.
Also take into acount this does not include the seniors , whom are automatically qualified.

With the age limit expected to change , lots of unsure HS prospects lean towards entering and staying cause they won't be able to leave college after freshmen year.

My point is - this draft might Boost with very young talent , and to our benefit (I hope) will leave lots of expected 2nd round seniors (as well as younger lower profiled prospects) *Undrafted* , or in a low 2nd round position easier to obtain.

*A steal is highly possible!* 

In fact , I'm quite sure there will be a few steals this draft , more than in the past , cause of the young talent Boost expected to happen. HS Guys like Shawne Williams or Andray Blatche might go undrafted or go extremely low. 

I also noticed there are tons of talented Wing players ( Green, Webster , Wright , Granger , Garcia , Graham , McCants , CJ Miles , Rudy Fernandez , Marko Thomas) all 1st round calliber.
That leaves lots of Wing Good players behind , not taken in the 1st round (some of the guys in the 1st list might even fall). Some of them will go in 2nd round where we can much easier trade for (cash considerations , future 2nds , Teams with two 1st ronders or a 1st and few 2nds tend to give up their lower ones after they took their prospects).

I trust Pax talent evaluation , after he showed us the last 2 drafts he definitely knows his stuff , to find the right guy of whats left. I trust him to get us a steal , a guy to make us deeper taken at a cheap price or for free (undrafted).

After the 1st List , here is a list of possible Wing to get at the 2nd in trade or even undrafted - Just a Glimps:
Eddie Badsen , Mickael Gelabele , Kelena Azubuike , Alan Anderson , Julius Hodge , BJ Elder , Marcus De Soza , Shawn Benks , Shawne Williams , Jawad Williams , Luther Head (?) , Hassan Adams (!!!?) , Dijon Thomphson , Steffano Menichelli , Angelo Gilgi , Daniel Ewing , Tiras Wade , Tre Simmons , Von Wafer , Nikolas Zissis , Jackie Manuel , Uros Tripkovic (!!!) , Orien Green , Willie Jenkins etc etc etc...

Now those are only the Wing prospects that can play SF or SG with some that can play also Point (Zissis,Ewing...). Personally , I've seen a know most of them and they are good players , but some I only read about in scouting reports. Looks to me like the Wing is deep this year , and along with the youngsters Boost - It might mean for us we won't need a draft pick (or get a low 2nd) to aquire a wing player Pax wants.

I know - draft ain't important for us this year , finally , I admit , but we have to take into acount there is always the possibility to Get a Marquis Daniels undrafted Type , Or a mid to low 2nd obtained ala Ariza , especially in this close draft. So heads up fellas :biggrin:


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

A guy thats not getting any attention , but I think is worthy a very good look at:

Stephen Graham 

The Twin Brother of Joey. Like his brother , an athletic freak . His brother is much more talented on the offensive side and got more burn but One thing Stephen does better than his brother is handling the ball , actually played some PG in HS . His brother gets all the attention and might go as high as lottery , but Stephen has also a *perfect* wing nba body , works hard on court , a senior with 4 years of a good program , had great numbers as a freshmen before minutes went down (anyone know the reason , 2nd year injury????)

I noticed Draftcity  wrote him a new profile and for some reason I hav'nt thought of him before.

IMHO - worth a chnance , especially since it's very likely he'll go undrafted! 

Reminder - Marquis Daniels , Big Ben = Undrafted...


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Thanks for the info, bullet...you seem really up to speed on some really solid options here. I'm hoping Pax gives these guys a good hard look, and maybe we'll come away with a Marquis Daniels type. Alot of these wing players get overshadowed in the draft process since GM's are always looking for big men first.


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