# Any Chance to get Dwight Howard? Would U Pay...



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I know D Howard is the core of the rebuilding down in ORL and is the franchise guy right now. But it will be a very slow and painful rebuild. They really have nothing else to build around and this next draft is fairly weak.

Would an offer of CharlieV and JoeyG be something ORL would consider? Should the Raps make the offer?

Charlie is a scorer. A legit 20+ppg guy on a team where he is the first option. But for Toronto he just doesn't have a starting position and likely never will unless Bosh wants to be starting C. Charlie can't find a position he can guard right now and his rebounding is inconsistent at best.

JoeyG is struggling to learn what his NBA game should be. He has big upside. He has only been taking under 5 shots per game. Is a better 3pt shooter than Charlie so far. And a decent rebounder. His D is weak but we are talking about some very difficult matchups and his first time seeing these players.

With 3 good picks in this upcoming draft the Raps should be able to find a quality wing or two. So losing Joey could be made up for this summer. 

Meanwhile swapping Charlie for a legit C with great rebounding and defensive instincts and an improving low post offensive game would be great for Bosh. Bosh and DHoward like and respect each other. It would be an awesome pairing for Toronto for the next 10 years. We also have Slokar, a great shooter, coming over next year.

ORL is giving up the first overall pick, but he is not an offensive force and may never become that. Charlie and Joey give them 2 exciting young starters who can put points on the board and become fan favourites. With Jameer Nelson and Fran Vasquez that's a decent starting lineup plus a lotto pick this summer.

Charlie has some star potential with his scoring ability but the fit in Toronto may not work long term. How much will the Raps want to pay a backup 4 who scores well off the bench when his rookie deal expires? Charlie will want to start soon and could do that elsewhere on teams that need scoring.

I think this is fair to both teams. Great value going each way. Could improve both teams.


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## wind161 (Jun 19, 2005)

i would do it in a heartbeat. How old is Howard? like 21-22? He's a rebounding machine and although he has a limited offensive game right now, his downside is limited while he's continually improve and his upside is enormous. 

Howard is a future superstar (hence ORL's franchise player), while Charlie & Joey are unlikely to be that superstar. 

In addition, Howard doesn't have that good/consistent forward player that supplement him. With Bosh and him, they will tear up any front court. 

A quality centre like Howard is a rarity and therefore, the trade you proposed is actually unfair to ORL. However, ORL may consider if you throw in a PG. If I was ORL, I would still not part with Howard.


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

It is a win-win scenario for both teams. Charlie is a very talented big-man that can flat out score. I would not part with Joey though. Joey likes to be here, he's improving his game ... has a consistent shot and a body that will last a long time in the nba. 

I would part with Charlie, Denver's first rounder and Araujo for Howard. That's 3 first rounders for the top overall pick ... and one of those 3 first rounders is in the semi-running for ROY ... i think this is a fair deal. 

James
Peterson
Graham
Bosh
Howard

whoa... you gotta be kidding me if we don't get to the playoffs this way.


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

howard is about as untouchable to the magic as chris is to the raps...forget about trying to get howard...it wont happen...


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## wind161 (Jun 19, 2005)

no_free_baskets said:


> howard is about as untouchable to the magic as chris is to the raps...forget about trying to get howard...it wont happen...


 that's what people said about TMac & Shaq, then things happen. 

Hence, i think it would take more than Charlie/Joey to get him. Like add a PG/1st round draft pick


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

Howard being traded is like LeBron being traded. Trust me its not ever going to happen.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

If he had a strong offensive game I would agree, but without scoring power he is clearly not a Lebron calibre player. Not even close. He isn't going to carry Orlando anywhere.

Elton brand was a 20/10 C and ROY and he was moved by the Bulls to get a bigger, younger C in the draft. A complete gamble on a HS kid. It happens.

Joey and Charlie combined, with starters minutes, should outproduce Dwight's rebounds while probably tripling his points.

Privately the ORL GM and ownership might not have as much faith in Howard reaching his full 'potential' at the offensive end. He could always be a limited weapon on O. For Toronto that's OK because Bosh is option #1. Charlie could be a first option guy in Orlando, with Joey becoming a number 2 or 3 guy.

Orlando would have to at least think about this offer, imo.


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

lucky777s said:


> If he had a strong offensive game I would agree, but without scoring power he is clearly not a Lebron calibre player. Not even close. He isn't going to carry Orlando anywhere.
> 
> Elton brand was a 20/10 C and ROY and he was moved by the Bulls to get a bigger, younger C in the draft. A complete gamble on a HS kid. It happens.
> 
> ...


keep in mind a couple of things...firstly, howard was 18yrs old when he 1st came into the league...to compare brand (with his 2-3 yrs in college) and howard's production in their rookie season is not valid at all...

secondly, look at who was/is his pg and how he is used in orlando...up to this pt., howard gets most of his pts off putbacks and dunks as orlando's offense is not centered around him at all (although that will probably change very soon)...im sure having a shoot 1st pg like francis doesnt help his off. production, as well...id say avging close to15 pts a game when the offense doesnt revolve around u, on top of only being 19 is pretty damn good...he still has plenty of time to grow on the offensive end...

thirdly, he already owns on the board as a 19 yr old...i mean its crazy to think, but he given his age, he can actually get better in terms or rebounding.....

when you have a 5 with that kind of potential, believe me, youre not trading him....espcially for the likes of cv and graham...


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Is this a legitimate trade idea or just another excuse for you to rag on Charlie?


Personally I would give up anything to get Howard. Anything up to Bosh, and even then it would give me pause. Howard is one of the youngest players in the NBA and is already starting to dominate the glass. Drafting him ahead of Okafor, Gabriel's best move before being fired, was a stroke of genius. The two aren't even in the same solar system.

I don't think Orlando would trade Howard for anything short of a LeBron or a Wade, certainly not now that they are headed for a complete rebuild.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

I wouldn't trade Howard for Bosh. Bosh might be better now, but Howard is not that far behind and is still learning the game. Bosh's potential isn't as good as Howard's potential. Howard's already a dominant defender, and he could be ZO+JO type PF.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

Howard's not a dominant defender. 

personally, I'd give up Charlie, Joey, and both our first rounders. And take Steve Francis's crazy contract off their hands too if they want. And they can have Ukic's rights, and SLokar and Pape and Hoffa lol. They can have matt bonner too. And the raptor mascot. And we'll give them cash on top 

Bosh/Dwight up front? couple years from now? wow


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

speedythief said:


> Is this a legitimate trade idea or just another excuse for you to rag on Charlie?
> 
> .


lol thats what I was wondering too


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Speedy, you are too much. I call Charlie a legit 20+ppg with some star potential and you call that 'ragging' ? Get real. and get over it.

And I can't believe that anyone thinks Howard is equal to Lebron or Wade. Potential does not equal proven production.

DHoward MAY, POSSIBLY, be a 20/10 guy down the road. Not a sure thing at all until he actually does it. Brand was an ACTUAL 20/10 guy when he was traded. How can the comparison not be valid. If anything Brand should have had more value than Howard because he was proven. Howard is still 'potential' which means there is a chance he never gets there. Age doesn't guarantee upside.

Joey and Charlie have 40/17 potential combined, wouldn't you say? Unless Howard is going to be 25/15 by himself that is pretty fair value in return for him. If you really think he has that kind of production in him then he is untouchable. But I don't think Bosh would be untouchable if he had Howard's offensive game. No way.

I wouldn't throw in either of our firsts this year, or even MoP. To me that becomes too much. We are giving up a great package.

If they take Hoff or Pape or maybe even MoP (instead of Joey) along with Charlie then I would throw in the Denver pick.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

We have our PF.

Dwight is untouchable.

Leave the southern Jesus-freak in the south where he'll be happy.

Toronto is too cosmopolitan for such a character. He would never choose to play here, why even give him the opportunity to say no to resigning.

There are better players/people for our situation in the draft.


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## aizn (Jun 19, 2005)

even though howard would b crazy for this team, it's unnecessary. the magic will not trade him because he will be their franchise player.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> Speedy, you are too much. I call Charlie a legit 20+ppg with some star potential and you call that 'ragging' ? Get real. and get over it.


Get over it? I think you need to get over Babcock's assessment of Charlie's skills and what he will bring to our team, because you've been grading Charlie based on that for months and it typically leads to you roasting him at every given opportunity, with a few compliments spiced in irregularly to make it seem like he occasionally lives up to the stone-carved standards you've set out for him.

You talked more about Charlie in your thread post than Dwight.



> And I can't believe that anyone thinks Howard is equal to Lebron or Wade. Potential does not equal proven production.


He's already a league-leader in RPG. By the end of the year he could be tops. That's proven production and he has potential to get even better. Anywhere from 13-16+ rebounds per game could be in his future. That's huge.



> DHoward MAY, POSSIBLY, be a 20/10 guy down the road. Not a sure thing at all until he actually does it. Brand was an ACTUAL 20/10 guy when he was traded. How can the comparison not be valid. If anything Brand should have had more value than Howard because he was proven. Howard is still 'potential' which means there is a chance he never gets there. Age doesn't guarantee upside.


His free throw shooting percentage isn't great. If he got it up to 70% he'd be scoring 15 points per game this year on around 10 shots. That's mostly been with Steve "Me First, Me Second" Francis running the team. Mostly put-backs. He shoots over 50%. I don't think his offensive progression matches some of his other skill progression but he's not far off from 20 points, and once the team is dismantled and he becomes the go-to player I think he will reach that plateau quickly.



> Joey and Charlie have 40/17 potential combined, wouldn't you say? Unless Howard is going to be 25/15 by himself that is pretty fair value in return for him. If you really think he has that kind of production in him then he is untouchable. But I don't think Bosh would be untouchable if he had Howard's offensive game. No way.


You think Charlie will average 10 rebounds per game and 20 points? If that's the case, why would you want Howard, who you think will struggle to reach that level? Kind of sideways, isn't it?

It's not fair value because of the impact Howard could have at whichever position is in his future, be it power foward or centre. I can't say with any certainty that he will always be a better player than either of the guys you have listed (who can?) but in terms of potential, having Howard is better than having almost any other two young players in the NBA, and I think Orlando realizes that.


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

There is absolutely no way Orlando would do Charlie and Joey for Dwight Howard.

lucky777, you're REALLY overrating our rookies. To say that 


lucky777s said:


> Joey and Charlie have 40/17 potential combined.


is a joke right? To say Charlie is a 20/10 guy is really pushing it and Joey Graham at 20/7 guy? Give me a break. 

Dwight would be amazing to have down the middle. Howard-Bosh-Peterson-Rose-James would be just a sick line-up. Moreover, Bosh and Howard a couple years from now? Wow.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

I think you would need to add a top 7 pick to the package as well


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

In addition to Charlie+Joey+pick, I would also give my left nut to have a Bosh/Howard frontcourt. 

But if it came down to it and Orlando counter offered with a straight up Bosh for Howard deal, I would go for it.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Charlie will never be a 20/10 guy HERE. Not with Bosh at PF. But playing 38mpg on a team like Orlando where he could be a first option guy then I think he could clearly be a 22/9 player or better. With 20 shots per game Charlie could be a 22-25ppg scorer on a bad club. 

Joey could easily be a 16-20ppg scorer once he finds his niche. The guy is taking under 5 shots per game right now. And 6-7 boards is very reasonable for a SF. Especially a physical guy like Joey. Look at Pierce, Kobe. MoP is at 5rpg this year with almost all defensive.

Howards boards are bumped up by the fact that he has zero competition for D boards on that team. Tony Battie is their second rebounder with just 6 per game. Garrity 1.8, Cato 3, Kasun 2. That's their big man rotation. Not much help.

Howard fits better here, even if he never scores more than 15ppg in his career and Charlie becomes a 23ppg scorer elsewhere. This isn't fantasy basketball, its about creating a real team. We can start Howard/Bosh together.

For Toronto the trade works. If I am Orlando I probably don't take the risk, but I consider it. Joey, Charlie, and Jameer are a nicer core than Jameer and Howard in my opinion to start a new club. Its a more complete base. And scoring is almost always valued more than D in trades and contracts.

I've never actually been as down on Charlie as I have been his fit on the Raps. Its funny that I actually view his value as higher than most of you when it comes to his fit on other clubs. I think he can put up Zack Randolph, Elton Brand like stats offensively. He has lots of faults, but most people overlook those when they see big scoring numbers. That's why most of you are so in love with him.

That's one of the problems in drafting 'best player available'. If he doesn't fit its harder to showcase him at his natural spot. Or you fall in love with him and don't want to trade him. Either way you don't fill the position you need.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

trick said:


> In addition to Charlie+Joey+pick, I would also give my left nut to have a Bosh/Howard frontcourt.
> But if it came down to it and Orlando counter offered with a straight up Bosh for Howard deal, I would go for it.



To do that you would have to believe that Charlie can become as efficient and consistent a player as Bosh has become.

I wouldn't go that far. Bosh has all the intangibles that are still big questionmarks with Charlie. And I'm not sold on Howard developing a great offensive game.

Charlie/Howard starting at 4/5 with Slokar/Pape/Hoff off the bench is quite an interesting big man lineup though. We would really need a go-to guy on the wing though.

But Bosh/Howard has serious contender written all over it. Maybe it is worth giving the Denver pick as well.


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## The Truth IV (Nov 3, 2005)

Orlando would absolutely laugh themselves silly if Babcock made any kind of offer for Howard unless it included Bosh.

If you disagree, you are simply and utterly insane.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

Joey and Charlie for Dwight Howard would never ever happen. Even if Babs did offer to include Denver's pick it wouldn't. Dwight Howard is already one of the best rebounders and one of the better defensive big men in the game and has the potential to be THE dominant force in the league. I mean, like trick said, I would trade Bosh straight up for Dwight. I mean I'm thinking it would probably take at least our own draft pick which probably wouldn't be that bad since this is supposed to be a very weak draft and even then Orlando would have to be pretty liquored up to do it. But the idea of a Bosh/Howard frontcourt is ridiculous and would probably make us championship contenders every year for the next 5-10 years if we surround them with some form of a supporting cast. This is considering their age and such. But still, this idea probably really wishful thinking.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

It would take Bosh and more to pry Howard from Orlando... a trade that I wouldn't make, granted, but that's what Orlando would be looking for if they were to deal Howard right now.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

I would give up Chris Bosh for Dwight Howard without ANY hesitation at all.

I think both will be cornerstones for there franchises.. but I just like Howard more. He will always have size, and athleticism on Bosh.. which are two huge things, especially when you factor in that he can play C with no problems at all. 

Howard just has UNBELIEVEABLE potential.. I think he could be an all-time great with his skills, and he would be a perfect fit for our team beside Charlie. I shouldn't even think about it because I get too excited. I would go nuts if we somehow pryed Howard from Orlando. No way theyd take Charlie and Joey though.

As for even THINKING about a Bosh-Howard frontcourt.. I would give ANYTHING on our roster. Any pick, whatever. We are SET for ages with that amazing frontcourt.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

The Magic wouldn't even give up Howard for Bosh. This thread is ridiculous.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Well, all the experts have spoken. Must be nice to see the future with such clarity and have close contact with Orlando management to know what they think.

I wonder if the response would have been the same a few years ago regarding Curry or Chandler. Bulls probably would have turned down a similar trade for Chandler. Would have been the wrong move.

People are still waiting for the young and full of 'potential' Chandler to develop an offensive game. Wonder when that will happen. Probably after Kwame wins MVP.

Meanwhile I will reserve my chair for the Hall of Fame induction ceremony for DHoward.

Trading Bosh for DHoward is just dumb. I can't believe the amount of support that idea is getting here. DHoward would be Robin to Bosh's Batman if they were on the same team. That's how I see the two of them.

I certainly don't see DHoward 'dominating the league'. Put Darko in Orlando and you might have the same opinion about him.


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## YoYoYoWasup (Nov 14, 2004)

lucky777s said:


> Well, all the experts have spoken. Must be nice to see the future with such clarity and have close contact with Orlando management to know what they think.
> 
> I wonder if the response would have been the same a few years ago regarding Curry or Chandler. Bulls probably would have turned down a similar trade for Chandler. Would have been the wrong move.
> 
> ...


The most PPG Chandler has ever averaged is 9.2, Howard already beat that, quite easily might I add, his rookie season with 12 PPG. Howard this season is averaging 14.5 PPG on 50% plus shooting, despite going out after 2 mins of the Lakers game, otherwise he would be averaging over 15 PPG. His offensive production is only going to increase as the season progresses, especially now with Francis and Hill out. Howard has all the tools to be a dominant offensive player because, unlike Chandler, he has the size AND the footwork to be a great player offensively. Chandler is thin as a rail and has terrible footwork, plus his work ethic sucks.

Howard's problem right now is learning how to get better position and being more consistant in his moves. Once that happens, that sky is the limit. He does have offensive game though, and doesn't score just off putbacks and dunks. If that was the case, Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace would average double digit points.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

lucky777s said:


> Well, all the experts have spoken. Must be nice to see the future with such clarity and have close contact with Orlando management to know what they think.
> 
> I wonder if the response would have been the same a few years ago regarding Curry or Chandler. Bulls probably would have turned down a similar trade for Chandler. Would have been the wrong move.
> 
> ...


In a few years, we can all look back at this post and laugh hysterically.


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

The Magic wouldn't trade Howard for anything the Raptors have, including Bosh. That's pretty much all there is to say on the topic.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

dwight has underwhelmed this year captain

tone it down a notch


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## X-Factor (Aug 24, 2004)

Captain Obvious said:


> The Magic wouldn't trade Howard for anything the Raptors have, including Bosh. That's pretty much all there is to say on the topic.


I'm with Obvious on this one.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

did you make "Dwight's easily a 20ppg scorer!" posts like captain did last year? probably


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

blowuptheraptors said:


> We have our PF.


What? You don't think Dwight and Chris can work together in the same frontcourt? You'd be crazy...no, cross that...ridiculously stupid to turn down Howard because you think Chris is occupying his 'position' right now.

I realise the odds of anything said in this thread occuring are little to none, but just on principle, that comment reeks of ignorance.


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

There is no argument. Orlando would never do this. Not even if we threw in our first. 

This is getting really silly. NYK offering Frye and Robinson for Bosh is much more fair than this and I'm sure lots of you would say no. This is like Jasikevicius and Granger for Bosh.. it's that bad. Saying Graham will be a 20 ppg guy is pure Raptor homer-ism. As a Raptor fan, please don't go there.


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## NJ Grand NJ (Feb 22, 2005)

ok so how bout this trade for the raps

steve francis and deshawn stevenson for chris bosh + filler

think about that


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

NJ Grand NJ said:


> ok so how bout this trade for the raps
> 
> steve francis and deshawn stevenson for chris bosh + filler
> 
> think about that


Think about going to hell, lol.

Francis should be traded to the EBC where people will appreciate his selfish, boneheaded style and attitude.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Rhubarb said:


> What? You don't think Dwight and Chris can work together in the same frontcourt? You'd be crazy...no, cross that...ridiculously stupid to turn down Howard because you think Chris is occupying his 'position' right now.
> 
> I realise the odds of anything said in this thread occuring are little to none, but just on principle, that comment reeks of ignorance.


Why don't you criticise my entire post. How do you get Howard? In a ****ing vacuum? Maybe a second rounder? Even the proposed CV and JG won't get it done.

Maybe Chris straight up will get it done, maybe Chris and more. Maybe not even then. Given all of this and all of what I said, how do you get them both in the same frontcourt?

Answer you don't. When I say the Raps have their PF, I am saying since the above is true, and Chris seems to be happy here and is leaning toward staying with his latest comments, I WOULD PREFER BOSH OVER HOWARD.

Call me an *******, but don't call me ignorant.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

NJ Grand NJ said:


> ok so how bout this trade for the raps
> 
> steve francis and deshawn stevenson for chris bosh + filler
> 
> think about that


How about Jason Kidd, Richard Jefferson for Alvin Williams and Jalen Rose?


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## X-Factor (Aug 24, 2004)

ansoncarter said:


> did you make "Dwight's easily a 20ppg scorer!" posts like captain did last year? probably


I don't know. Why don't you dig up those old "threads" that you found this information from. No one in the Orlando forum thought Dwight would be scoring 20 a night. Maybe 15 at most. I don't know where you are getting your facts from, but :rofl: at you of all people making fun of peoples posts.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

X-Factor said:


> but :rofl: at you of all people making fun of peoples posts.


 I hope you're not talking about his posts on the Raptors board...


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

I would love to have D.Howard, but it would clearly involve giving up Bosh. I just don't see Orlando wanting anything less

a longshot idea would be if Orlando really liked a player in this upcoming draft, then maybe a deal of Charlie V, Joey Graham and maybe two picks, but this is highly unlikely as well


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## X-Factor (Aug 24, 2004)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> I hope you're not talking about his posts on the Raptors board...


Most of the posts I see from him are in EBB, and I feel embarassed for him most of the time, to tell you the truth.


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## Chris Bosh #4 (Feb 18, 2005)

blowuptheraptors said:


> How about Jason Kidd, Richard Jefferson for Alvin Williams and Jalen Rose?


Deal!


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

Howard is way better then Chandler. Chandler is a rail and doesnt really bang inside like Howard does. Howard is easily better then Charlie and Joey. When you watch Howard you just know he is going to be a star. You just see how he puts back the ball and dunks hard with authority everytime. Just watching Howard gives me bumps and everyone can easily tell he is going to be a great player.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

I do this deal, but there's no way Orlando would.

Hopefully we'll see these two play together in the Olympics.


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## undefined_playa (Oct 23, 2005)

Do you think Orlando would do it for Charlie, Graham, and Calderon?
I know we're giving up a lot, but if Ukic comes from Europe, and Mike James stays. Our lineup could be:

Roko
James
Mo Pete
Bosh
Howard

Solid?


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

^ No Orlando would not. They would only do it for Bosh and even then it would probably still be a bit iffy. Again, I re-emphasize, Dwight Howard has a very real chance of becoming THE premier dominant force in the league. The guy that you send two or three guys at every time down the floor, and can go for six blocks on any given night. He has good footwork, and can score downlow and is already one of the better defensive big men in the league particularly on the board. He has the power to be dominant, but also uses that power to finish consistantly (anyone watch court cuts?). If he can find that one bread and butter move that he can use to consistantly take advantage of both his speed and power, he would be virtually unstoppable to defend one-on-one. 

And I hear all this about potential. When a guy is performing like he is, one of the best rebounders in the game at like 19-20, I think he is worth the "gamble" of trading a guy like Bosh. I don't quite consider Bosh a "star" yet. He's an all-star. That's not to take anything away from him as that's a great thing for someone in their third year to be. But come on. This guy is not Shaq. You guys say that Dwight Howard has the potential to be Kwame Brown, well then can't Bosh have the potential to be the next Shareef. You can't play the potential game when Bosh is young too. Bottom line is that in my opinion, if Babs passes on a Bosh for Howard opportunity, he would be on his way out faster than he'd know.

ps. I'm not a Bosh hater by any means.
I'm a Raptors fan, have been since the beginning.


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

^ bosh > you


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

-James- said:


> ps. I'm not a Bosh hater by any means.
> I'm a Raptors fan, have been since the beginning.



so u knew about the raptors when u were 5 and worried about cooties in kindergarten???? Come on relax with the exageration


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

adhir1 said:


> so u knew about the raptors when u were 5 and worried about cooties in kindergarten???? Come on relax with the exageration


Yes, I live in a basketball family. I may not know every player that's ever been on the team, but even when I was "worried about cooties" I was still rooting for them anytime they were playing on the VR channel. I grew up in a family that lives basketball so is it so unreasonable for me to like the only hometown team when I was five? I was at games then. It's no different from kids growing up in hockey families who are fans of the Leafs from the age of five. So I don't see where I need to "relax with the exageration" except for where I refer to Babcock getting booted but that is my opinion (and I make a point to state "in my opinion") so I don't see the need if that's my opinion. 



[email protected] said:


> ^ bosh > you


I'm aware. Point?
I kind of went out of my way to not say **** about Bosh and make it more of a pro-Dwight post than an anti-Bosh post. I don't see what I could of said anyways, other than that Bosh isn't Shaq and that his current potential has something of a basement when that is true for what's probably a pretty big majority of the league.

Come on guys. I'm detecting a little hostility. It's only my opinion. At the end of the day, Dwight will still be at Disneyworld, Bosh will be here and I'll still be a Raptor fan.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> ^ bosh > you


Has be the stupidest post I've ever read.


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

wow, james brought out the vr reference, so u know this guy is representing....lol...nice, man, nice.... old school, baby, old school...lol....:clap: :clap: :clap:

incidently, does anyone remember when the nba draft was on ytv(!) lol...that was the greatest....


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

The only area that Dwight Howard is clearly better than Bosh in is rebounding. He's a slightly better shot blocker than Bosh, but barely...we're talking 1.1 bpg vs 1.5 bpg. Bosh is also someone that hasn't looked to block alot of shots this season either...prob to avoid foul trouble and to maintain good rebounding position(appears to take/attempt to take charges alot more). They both shoot 51% from the field, but Bosh has taken 200 more shot attempts. Bosh is a clear cut #1 option that faces double teams consistantly and still shoots over 50%. He's also much better at getting to the free throw line AND at making free throws(80% vs 60%). Infact, Bosh is 10th in FT's per game and everyone ahead of him is a either a guard or small forward. Bosh avg's more assists and minutes on top of everything. And the age factor? Howard is 20 while Bosh is 21. Seems some people might forget the fact that Bosh is really young as well.

Anyone that says Howard is "obviously" better is uninformed. Size helps but size doesn't equal basketball skill, ability and/or knowledge. Both guys are/will be big time players. 

As far as trades go, a package of Charlie, Denvers pick, Our pick this year...is something Orlando would have to consider(based on ours being top 10, and Denvers being top 20). They'd be foolish not to. That's potentially 3 starters for 1. Not saying I would or wouldnt do it from an Orlando perspective , but id seriously look at it.


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## Goodfella (Nov 24, 2005)

Dwight Howard is "untouchable" not even two promising players such as Charlie V and Graham could pry away Howard from Orlando. He's part of there future plans and management is 100% content with him there.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

lucky777s said:


> Would an offer of CharlieV and JoeyG be something ORL would consider? Should the Raps make the offer?



No and no.

Nope. Nada. Not happening. 

At this point, right now, I think the only player Orlando would consider moving Dwight for would be Lebron James.

[/thread]


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm just going to pretend I didn't waste my time actually reading this crap. What...a...joke. Not much else to say here.


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## Thievery Corporation (Jul 2, 2005)

^Most people here share the sentiment that Howard is untouchable.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

I think the best we could do is this:

Villanueva
Bonner
Our first (if it's top 5)

Orlando gets a lotto PF in Villanueva and a high pick in the draft to try to make up for the Vasquez debacle of last year. Bonner gives them some depth.

This is not unfair in any sense, regardless of what Orlando fans say. Basically it's a very talented PF who is one of the top 3 players from last year's draft (Paul, Bogut, Villanueva) who is still young, plus another top 5 pick this year (Bargnani, Gay, Morrison, Aldridge, Brewer), plus a good role player in Bonner for Howard.

Would have to be a draft day deal since we can't trade our pick since it is owed to Charlotte.


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

Team Mao said:


> I think the best we could do is this:
> 
> Villanueva
> Bonner
> ...


I'm a Raptors fan and I'm going to tell you it's unfair. That's like Chicago offering us NYK's first, Deng, and Pike for Bosh. Howard is not going to go that easily (or at all). The only way TO would ever get Howard is by trading Bosh and more.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

howard is untouchable just like bosh is.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Benis007 said:


> howard is untouchable just like bosh is.



I respectfully disagree. I'd bet Toronto would swap Bosh for Dwight straight-up if they had the opportunity. Mainly because of Dwight's size advantage already and his frame that can add even more size comfortably, making it possible for him to play as a true center whereas Bosh can play center but would be playing it more or less out of position.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

JNice said:


> I respectfully disagree. I'd bet Toronto would swap Bosh for Dwight straight-up if they had the opportunity. Mainly because of Dwight's size advantage already and his frame that can add even more size comfortably, making it possible for him to play as a true center whereas Bosh can play center but would be playing it more or less out of position.



I respectfully disagree, less and less 5's are in the Shaq mold nowa days, so while DH's big body is great. It still pales in comparrison to CB4's skill set.








"Go back to sleep"


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

JNice said:


> I respectfully disagree. I'd bet Toronto would swap Bosh for Dwight straight-up if they had the opportunity. Mainly because of Dwight's size advantage already and his frame that can add even more size comfortably, making it possible for him to play as a true center whereas Bosh can play center but would be playing it more or less out of position.


I would say you are wrong in personality alone. Fact of life in TO is that we need people that don't mind playing in Canada/Toronto. I am pretty sure Dwight likes it where he is.

Chances of resigning Bosh 90%. 

for Dwight, 50% or less.

This is an issue that the brass in TO took into account in last year's draft and is helping us find Euros who PREFER! to play in Canada over the US in terms of lifestyle.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

blowuptheraptors said:


> I would say you are wrong in personality alone. Fact of life in TO is that we need people that don't mind playing in Canada/Toronto. I am pretty sure Dwight likes it where he is.
> 
> Chances of resigning Bosh 90%.
> 
> ...


He's got you there, JNice. Howard loves the south.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

i agree to disagree.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

blowuptheraptors said:


> I would say you are wrong in personality alone. Fact of life in TO is that we need people that don't mind playing in Canada/Toronto. I am pretty sure Dwight likes it where he is.
> 
> Chances of resigning Bosh 90%.
> 
> ...



That could be true, i'll give you that. Although Dwight wouldn't be the type to pull a Steve Francis or a Vince Carter.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

shookem said:


> I respectfully disagree, less and less 5's are in the Shaq mold nowa days, so while DH's big body is great. It still pales in comparrison to CB4's skill set.


You shouldn't confuse the fact that there aren't any good true centers with GMs not wanting guys who can fill out to be true centers. Just because all the big guys now are fat, lazy, and basically suck doesn't mean GMs don't still salivate over a guy like that. Not to mention it isn't as if Dwight is one of those big, plodding stiffs. He's at the top of the league in overall athleticism, up there with the best.

Yes Bosh's offensive skillset is most definitely greater than Dwight's right now, but it appears Dwight will have a greater capability to dominate around the basket (and not just on offense) than Bosh. Bosh is more perimeter oriented .. kind of like Duncan vs KG. 

Either way, I'd love to see Bosh at PF and Dwight at C. Steve Francis and Pat Garrity sound good?


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

dwights efg% on jumpers is 25%. I don't blame him for staying close to the hoop


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

JNice said:


> Either way, I'd love to see Bosh at PF and Dwight at C. Steve Francis and Pat Garrity sound good?


You're asking as if we have any lee-way with Raptors trades/transactions? :raised_ey


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

Bosh points come in the paint btw (same % territory as Duncan, Randolph, Pau Gasol)

he doesn't get his points like Garnett or Jermaine Oneal

(Dwight could very well end up better than Bosh btw. And soon. Who knows. Personally I wouldn't trade Bosh for him, but what do I know)


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## EvilRedSquirrel (Jul 5, 2003)

There is no doubt that D. Howard is a terrific low-post player and a good defensive presenece inside. In no way would I trade Bosh for Howard at this point. Bosh is our franchise player much the same for Dwight in Orlando....you don't just go and trade a player like that unless there were internal problems between the player and organization. Howard has alot of potential to develop the 20/10 numbers like Bosh and even excede those but I would still would never fire the trigger on a deal straight up Bosh for Howard.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

icehawk said:


> I'm a Raptors fan and I'm going to tell you it's unfair. That's like Chicago offering us NYK's first, Deng, and Pike for Bosh. Howard is not going to go that easily (or at all). The only way TO would ever get Howard is by trading Bosh and more.


Depending on where the NY pick sits, I would seriously consider that deal. If it's top 3 and we can get one of Aldridge or Bargnani, I'd take that deal. Deng+Aldridge/Bargnani is a great two-headed monster, just like CV+Gay/Ammo/Bargnani/Aldridge would be a hell of a combo.

I refuse to accept that any player in the league is 'untouchable' if the right deal comes along. But a deal involving Howard for Bosh would make no sense for either team because it's a lateral deal at best. Howard will never be the offensive player that Bosh is, and Bosh will never be the rebounder and defensive talent that Howard is. But together, every other team might as well stay at home, and for that reason, I would offer my first born child and maybe even offer to toss Twardzik's salad.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Team Mao said:


> Depending on where the NY pick sits, I would seriously consider that deal. If it's top 3 and we can get one of Aldridge or Bargnani, I'd take that deal. Deng+Aldridge/Bargnani is a great two-headed monster, just like CV+Gay/Ammo/Bargnani/Aldridge would be a hell of a combo.
> 
> I refuse to accept that any player in the league is 'untouchable' if the right deal comes along. But a deal involving Howard for Bosh would make no sense for either team because it's a lateral deal at best. Howard will never be the offensive player that Bosh is, and Bosh will never be the rebounder and defensive talent that Howard is. But together, every other team might as well stay at home, and for that reason, I would offer my first born child and maybe even offer to toss Twardzik's salad.


I can't even begin to say how bad that deal is. There is no player in this draft that Bosh is worth paying. I like Luol Deng, but you have no clue how Aldridge or the Italian will adapt. We already know Bosh is A) a great player today and B) Not an *******.

That is a rare combination. I'm sorry, but he is now untouchable. I don't think there is a 1-for-1 deal out there or 2-1 that could change my mind given where this franchise is at on the chart of its development.


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## The Truth IV (Nov 3, 2005)

go easy on the young fans - it's not until you hit 17 or 18 that you realize you can't package your spare parts and get a star player.

As a young Leafs in the 80s, I went through my share of "let's trade Dan Daoust, Gaston Gingras and Peter Ihnacak and a first round pick for Mario Lemieux" scenarios. It's a natural function of naively over-estimating the guys you get to see on a regular basis (i.e. I thought Gaston Gingras was an all-star) and under estimating how rare it is to have a true star player (or a potential star).


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

I woould decline bosh for Dwight.

CB4 is adapted to ourt vcity, pewrhaps is considering it long term, what if Howard does'nt like it or doe'nt wan to be here lomg term?

I would do the Villinueva & grahem for Howard nothing more maybe a 07 rnd 1 protected pick.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

ansoncarter said:


> dwights efg% on jumpers is 25%. I don't blame him for staying close to the hoop



lol... I love pointless stats. Considering Dwight takes a jumper once probably every 8-10 games, it doesn't surprise me. He can hit them, but that isn't his role. I don't recall anyone complaining about Shaq's % on jumpers.


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## skip2 (Aug 4, 2005)

JNice said:


> lol... I love pointless stats. Considering Dwight takes a jumper once probably every 8-10 games, it doesn't surprise me. He can hit them, but that isn't his role. I don't recall anyone complaining about Shaq's % on jumpers.


You just condrudicted yourself there, you know that? Those are two COMPLETELY different arguments, one you said that Howard can hit that jumper, but on the other hand you said that nobody complains on Shaq's lack of a jumper...

BTW, I'd offer CV, JG and this year's unprotected first pick for Mr. Dwight. Him and Bosh will keep each other happy, so they'll both re-sign. And they will be a force to be reckened with ANYWHERE, especially in the east.

Howard/Hoffa/Pape/Aaron
Bosh/Slokar*/Bonner
Rose/Eric/Denver pick*
Mo/Mike/Denver pick*
Mike/Jose/Ukic*

That's a team that can compete NOW, and can kill it later. 2nd rounders for depth/MLE (or if we trade Rose by tthe TD MUCH more than that) for a starting SF or SG.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

This topic is ridiculous, its like asking if we would give up Bosh to the Knicks for lets say Frye, Robinson and a 1st round pick. Would you do it? Most Raptor fans would laugh at that proposal, just as Magic fans are laughing at this proposal.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

skip2 said:


> BTW, I'd offer CV, JG and this year's unprotected first pick for Mr. Dwight. Him and Bosh will keep each other happy, so they'll both re-sign. And they will be a force to be reckened with ANYWHERE, especially in the east.


You do realize that no one outside of Toronto would give up Howard for anyone on your team?


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

Unfortunately, no one outside of Toronto watches the raptors enough to understand the potential of the young guys that we brought in this year. I wouldn't do a Bosh for Howard deal. 

Last year, I think Howard had more value than Bosh. This year, however, Bosh has improved leaps and bounds and is worth more than Howard (imo). I still would not like to part with Joey Graham. I think he's got upside and we will all see a big jump in productivity next year from Joey.


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

one the other teams around the leagues fans are right.. D-Ho is a stud... i would gladly give up Villanueva, Graham, and probably even a first for him.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *Hairy Midget !*
> 
> You do realize that no one outside of Toronto would give up Howard for anyone on your team?


Sorry we didn't get the memo from "everyone outside Toronto" that stated this point, the fax must be down or something :raised_ey 

the only way Bosh or Howard would be traded would be for eachother, and personally without any hint of Homerism, I would not give up Bosh for Howard.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

TRON said:


> Sorry we didn't get the memo from "everyone outside Toronto" that stated this point, the fax must be down or something :raised_ey
> 
> the only way Bosh or Howard would be traded would be for eachother, and personally without any hint of Homerism, I would not give up Bosh for Howard.


I'm just saying, ask anyone outside of Toronto or Orlando who they would want to build a team around, and the answer is going to be Howard.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

20% of his shots this year have come from jumpers. I'm not a mathematician, but that probably works out to a bit higher frequency than once every 10games

and his efg% in the post is really, really poor too. Outside of dunking, his offence looks pretty bad right now

according to the stats anyway


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

ansoncarter said:


> 20% of his shots this year have come from jumpers. I'm not a mathematician, but that probably works out to a bit higher frequency than once every 10games
> 
> and his efg% in the post is really, really poor too. Outside of dunking, his offence looks pretty bad right now
> 
> according to the stats anyway


I don't know what to tell you, because those stats are wrong. 20% of his shots are definitely not jumpers. He's probably taken maybe 15 jumpers all season so far.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

Hairy Midget said:


> I don't know what to tell you, because those stats are wrong. 20% of his shots are definitely not jumpers. He's probably taken maybe 15 jumpers all season so far.


yeah it does seem high. I've always been too lazy to read up their (82games) definition of a jumper/inclose etc.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *Hairy Midget!*
> 
> I'm just saying, ask anyone outside of Toronto or Orlando who they would want to build a team around, and the answer is going to be Howard.


this assumption is just as baseless as your previous one. If you can't prove this assertion then what'
s the point of making it. give me some proof or it's all heresay in my mind

but for the sake of argument, let's see what the coaches think this allstar game. It looks like neither player will be voted in, so let's see if either, by thier individual play is deemed worthy to be selected.
it doesn't completely answer the question of "which player to build a team around" but it will show us fans who is actually the better player

overall I'd like to state that I don't like the Bosh vs. Howard comparison, IMO it's like comparing apples to orages because of the imense difference in the 2 players game. Bosh is finess with an edge and Howard is imposing dominant, but if the question is a "which player to build around" one, then I would have to go with Bosh


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

ya me too.. but that's mainly because i am a toronto fan, and know about all his sick games... i am sure they will both be awesome really soon.


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## tranjsaic (Feb 11, 2005)

Wow, I just read thru all the pages of this post...man you raptors fans are dullustional, well not all but ALOT.

The only player I would trade DHoward straight up for is Lebron, then I would consider Wade. I prolly wouldnt trade for Wade but ill consider it. The only way I trade with the Raptors is if Bosh is included and a top 5 pick and even then im not sure I would do it this year. Maybe if you guys offer Bosh and a top 5 pick NEXT year, when Oden comes out ill do it.

BTW who ever said Graham and Charlie were worth DHoward is a idiot.


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## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

lucky777s said:


> I know D Howard is the core of the rebuilding down in ORL and is the franchise guy right now. But it will be a very slow and painful rebuild. They really have nothing else to build around and this next draft is fairly weak.
> 
> Would an offer of CharlieV and JoeyG be something ORL would consider? Should the Raps make the offer?


if you want to be laughed at, make the offer.

orlando would never ever consider that.

ever.


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