# true or false - mcgrady the most talented ever



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

is tracy mcgrady the most talented player *EVER*? 

when taking in combination "size, skill and athleticism" as put into the words of a fellow poster. i'd say hakeem, shaq, jordan, iverson, magic, barkley and even vince are more talented than tracy is. there's more names i have in mind but thats just the starters. this was already disproved at another board i visit so i figured i'd bring it up here.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Well, ever since i first heard someone saying "T-Mac is the most talented player ever" i wanted to ask why.

I never did, because i was afraid of the dum responses that would surely follow...


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

Tracy does have a good case. But then again, so does Kevin Garnett.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Well, ever since i first heard someone saying "T-Mac is the most talented player ever" i wanted to ask why.
> 
> I never did, because i was afraid of the dum responses that would surely follow...


Of course if McGrady was a Laker, you'd be singing a different tune.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Talented isn't the right word. Gifted maybe? He is probably the most gifted guard of all time.


----------



## Deke (Jul 27, 2005)

always think of jordan and bernard when it come to pure talent. mcgrady very talented but i doubt the most talented ever.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Spriggan said:


> Of course if McGrady was a Laker, you'd be singing a different tune.


Now, Spriggan, you are starting to piss me off...

IF you think all of my posts regarding non-Laker players are viewed through homeristic-coloured glass, please don't respond to them.

The most talented players, in my book, are not even Laker player.

But just to show us that you just don't go to threads only to take swipes at me (there's 2 and counting), please tell us why do you think T-Mac is "the most talented" basketball player ever...


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Talented isn't the right word. Gifted maybe? He is probably the most gifted guard of all time.


define gifted. because if its what i think you mean, he isn't that either.


----------



## sherwin (Mar 21, 2005)

I think he is. If he had Jordan's mindset he'd be the GOAT.


----------



## Deke (Jul 27, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Now, Spriggan, you are starting to piss me off...
> 
> IF you think all of my posts regarding non-Laker players are viewed through homeristic-coloured glass, please don't respond to them.
> 
> ...


 you have very homeristic opinions though. i dont find it coincidence you post about laker players being better then other alltime greats and how you end up making a comment about how a player that is a rival to a laker is less talented.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

sherako said:


> define gifted. because if its what i think you mean, he isn't that either.


What other guard has 1st tier athleticism, 1st tier basketball skills, and is 6'8 with ridiculous length (7'3 wingspan)? Nobody, except now LeBron James. And that speaks for itself considering how people think he is going to be the greatest of all time.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

BenGordon said:


> you have very homeristic opinions though. i dont find it coincidence you post about laker players being better then other alltime greats


Is this that Magic vs Jordan again?
Or are there others?



> and how you end up making a comment about how a player that is a rival to a laker is less talented.


Less talented than who? T-Mac IS more talented than Kobe. But the "most talented" player ever? Why should he be considered that?


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

Julius Erving + George Gervin + Scottie Pippen = Tracy McGrady


----------



## Deke (Jul 27, 2005)

tone wone said:


> Julius Erving + George Gervin + Scottie Pippen = Tracy McGrady



Mcgrady isnt the athlete Julius was

Mcgrady isnt the shooter Gervin was

and Mcgrady damn sure isnt the defender Pippen was....


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Now, Spriggan, you are starting to piss me off...
> 
> IF you think all of my posts regarding non-Laker players are viewed through homeristic-coloured glass, please don't respond to them.
> 
> ...


Don't get all sensitive right after insinuating that any arguments I make on behalf of McGrady regarding this topic will be "dum" (sic). That's rather hypocritical.

Can I help but call you a homer when you pick Magic over MJ and the only actual argument you make is that MJ would be seen as inferior if he didn't win any championships? And that you completely disregard the defensive side of the court when comparing the two? I haven't really seen you make any logical arguments in favor of Magic over Jordan, so what else is there to think? Someone even pasted quotes from Bird, Magic and others saying that MJ is the greatest ever, and you simply dismissed them. You even insulted Bird's intelligence (?). Magic himself said that MJ did several things better than him, and you responded to that quote with a sarcastic "oh really, i wonder what those things are? wow!" I think they would know a little better, having actually played against and been around the guy. There's no shame in being a homer if you just admit it. Well, not as much, anyway.

Size, skill, and athleticism. Tracy McGrady is 6'9 and has great length. He has an abundance of skills that encompass the entire court. He can do everything and anything on the court. He is very quick, runs the floor like a deer, and can jump out of the gym. Cliche but true.

I'm not calling him the best player ever, but the most talented. Or if you'd like, as Patchwork said, the most gifted. Means the same thing to me. Can you name another 6'9 player with Tracy McGrady's skills and athleticism? Because I can't.

Kevin Garnett is arguable when it comes to size, athleticism and overall skillset, except that he isn't nearly the shooter and ball-handler that McGrady is, so I rule him out.

I consider McGrady more talented (not better) than Kobe and MJ because he has a significant size advantage over both, while having similar skillsets and athleticism.


----------



## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

BenGordon said:


> Mcgrady isnt the athlete Julius was
> 
> Mcgrady isnt the shooter Gervin was
> 
> and Mcgrady damn sure isnt the defender Pippen was....



Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong again.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Spriggan said:


> Don't get all sensitive right after insinuating that any arguments I make on behalf of McGrady regarding this topic will be "dum" (sic). That's rather hypocritical.


Read properly.

I said i was afraid of the "dum" comments that would follow. Something like his abillity to score x poits in 13 minutes, and to look at the series against Dallas, and diatribes like that. I wasn't emplying that ALL comments would be absurd.

Afterall, i am always open to hear REASONABLE arguments for both sides of ANY question.



> Can I help but call you a homer when you pick Magic over MJ and the only actual argument you make is that MJ would be seen as inferior if he didn't win any championships? And that you completely disregard the defensive side of the court when comparing the two? I haven't really seen you make any logical arguments in favor of Magic over Jordan, so what else is there to think?


Again, read correctly.

In that thread, i stated that i've posted numerous times in this forum my opinions about the greatest players ever, and why i consider Wilt #1, Magic #2 and MJ #3. I even showed how people could search for my past posts on the issue. A simple search will bring out loads of them.

So, i am not to blame if you are lazy enough to read 2 *summarized * posts of mine and claim to know my opinion on the subject.



> Someone even pasted quotes from Bird, Magic and others saying that MJ is the greatest ever, and you simply dismissed them. You even insulted Bird's intelligence (?). Magic himself said that MJ did several things better than him, and you responded to that quote with a sarcastic "oh really, i wonder what those things are? wow!" I think they would know a little better, having actually played against and been around the guy. There's no shame in being a homer if you just admit it. Well, not as much, anyway.


Can YOU say what *severall * (and this is the key word) things Jordan did better than Magic? I don't want to hijack the thread, so you are wellcome to post the answer in the thread we are talking about. 

You can call me a "homer" all you like, and i could prove that if i am one thing, i would be a Magic Johnson hard-core fan, for i consider Wilt #1 mainly for the thing he did BEFORE becoming a Laker, how i consider Larry Bird (a freaking Celtic, for God's sake!) as the most perfect basketball player ever, etc., etc.

But it's not worthy.

EDIT: Oh, btw, Spriggan, i did not insult Larry bird's intellignece. I insulted *Larry Brown's*.
to the Bird quote od MJ PROBABLY being the GOAT i responded: "I have no problem with this. I can't really say there's a clear-cut G.O.A.T.."

Again: read properly.


----------



## thekid (Apr 3, 2003)

He's damn versatile, that's for sure.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Good god no. Have you guys ever heard of Wilt? Jordan? Oscar Robertson? Hell, what about KG?


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

tone wone said:


> Julius Erving + George Gervin + Scottie Pippen = Tracy McGrady


 .........

in case you missed it Seanet


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Read properly.
> 
> I said i was afraid of the "dum" comments that would follow. Something like his abillity to score x poits in 13 minutes, and to look at the series against Dallas, and diatribes like that. I wasn't emplying that ALL comments would be absurd.
> 
> Afterall, i am always open to hear REASONABLE arguments for both sides of ANY question.


You said:



> Well, ever since i first heard someone saying "T-Mac is the most talented player ever" i wanted to ask why.
> 
> I never did, because i was afraid of the dum responses that would surely follow...


As far as I know, I'm the only one who's ever publically said that McGrady is the most talented ever on this board (and I've done so numerous times). Naturally, I attributed your second statement to myself.



> Again, read correctly.
> 
> In that thread, i stated that i've posted numerous times in this forum my opinions about the greatest players ever, and why i consider Wilt #1, Magic #2 and MJ #3. I even showed how people could search for my past posts on the issue. A simple search will bring out loads of them.
> 
> So, i am not to blame if you are lazy enough to read 2 *summarized * posts of mine and claim to know my opinion on the subject.


I remember your previous posts on the subject. Your entire argument is basically that Magic made his teammates better than Mike made his, so that makes him superior to MJ. Isn't that it?



> Can YOU say what *severall * (and this is the key word) things Jordan did better than Magic? I don't want to hijack the thread, so you are wellcome to post the answer in the thread we are talking about.


MJ did two very big things better than Magic: scoring and playing defense. Now you can dissect those two into several different aspects. Shooting, driving, finishing at the basket, man-to-man D, team D.

Magic was a superior playmaker and rebounder.


----------



## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

He may be the most talented ever at losing in the first round.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

tone wone said:


> .........
> 
> in case you missed it Seanet


Thanks. Its nice to have the delusions of TMac fans laid out in a nice little equation like that.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Spriggan said:


> As far as I know, I'm the only one who's ever publically said that McGrady is the most talented ever on this board (and I've done so numerous times). Naturally, I attributed your second statement to myself.


Oh, i see. But no. Sincerely, i tend to avoid reading your posts . That is, in the General Forum. I like to read them in EBB.



> I remember your previous posts on the subject. Your entire argument is basically that Magic made his teammates better than Mike made his, so that makes him superior to MJ. Isn't that it?


Nope.



> MJ did two very big things better than Magic: scoring and playing defense.


MJ was a better defender, off course. But "scorer"? that depends on you definition of "scorer".

This is still OT, you know...


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> Thanks. Its nice to have the delusions of TMac fans laid out in a nice little equation like that.


Why are you acting like it isn't even arguable? Know many 6'9 players like McGrady?


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

GrandKenyon6 said:


> He may be the most talented ever at losing in the first round.


He's got that **** down!!!!

As a side note, remember when the Magic had the Pistons down 3-1 and TMac made his comments about what a relief it was to be finally moving on to the second round, and then the Pistons came back and won the series. He really reminded me of Dr. J, George Gervin, and Scottie Pippen that series.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> Why are you acting like it isn't even arguable? Know many 6'9 players like McGrady?


Winning. Its about winning.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> MJ was a better defender, off course. But "scorer"? that depends on you definition of "scorer".


Jordan was clearly a better scorer than Magic. How can you even spin that in Magic's favor?


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Jordan was clearly a better scorer than Magic. How can you even spin that in Magic's favor?


EFF? PPFGA?


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> Winning. Its about winning.


I'm talking about individual talent, not team talent.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Winning. Its about winning.


Exactly, that's why whenever someone is foolish enough to say Jason Kidd is better than Chauncey Billups or Tony Parker, I say look at the rings. It's all about winning.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> I'm talking about individual talent, not team talent.


You have your metrics and evaulations, I have mine. IMO, TMac is horribly over-rated. And this whole 'talent' thing is just some backdoor excuse for his worshippers to not just fawn all over him, but somehow 'prove' he's the best at something. He is what he is. A top level talent (but no reason to believe the best) who is missing a key mental ingredient that the truly best players have, and that's why his teams go nowhere year after year.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> You have your metrics and evaulations, I have mine. IMO, TMac is horribly over-rated. And this whole 'talent' thing is just some backdoor excuse for his worshippers to fawn all over him.


Haha.

Yeah, this whole "basketball talent" deal is so insignificant. What does that matter when it comes to basketball?


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Exactly, that's why whenever someone is foolish enough to say Jason Kidd is better than Chauncey Billups or Tony Parker, I say look at the rings. It's all about winning.


If that's how you choose to extrapolate, well... whatever. If Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups played the same roll on their teams that JKidd does, that would make some kind of sense. But its just an attempt to jab at me through JKidd. Have your fun.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> Haha.
> 
> Yeah, this whole "basketball talent" deal is so insignificant. What does that matter when it comes to basketball?


You want to deny the truth of what i'm saying, be my guest. But ask yourself, does RayRayhas something that TMac is lacking? That's what I'm talking about.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> You want to deny the truth of what i'm saying, be my guest. But ask yourself, does RayRayhas something that TMac is lacking? That's what I'm talking about.


The only thing Ray does better than McGrady is shoot the rock. What is the "truth" of what you're saying?

Do you blame the Rockets not going past the first round on McGrady, even though he put up one of the most impressive playoff series statlines ever?


----------



## Deke (Jul 27, 2005)

Carbo04 said:


> Wrong.
> Wrong.
> Wrong again.


Tracy Mcgrady is very good but to say hes better then all three of these HOFers put together or even one of them is really overlooking his skill.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

If we are regarding "size, skill and athleticism", how can one question Wilt's #1 spot?

Size? Obviously. 7'1 of it.

Atheticism? Well, for all acounts, he was one of the stronger players ever, and with amazing physical habilities (someone has posted his vert, who was off-the-charts, for instance).

Skills? Fadeaway jumper, fingerroll, passing, the complete package (minust at the FT line, that is)

Or am i not understanding the terms "size, skill and athleticism" ?


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> If that's how you choose to extrapolate, well... whatever. If Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups played the same roll on their teams that JKidd does, that would make some kind of sense. But its just an attempt to jab at me through JKidd. Have your fun.


No, it's an attempt to show you how inconsistent you and other people are with the winner/loser argument. Do you also consider Ben Wallace better than Kevin Garnett? How about that, Ben Wallace is the best player on the Pistons, he led his team to a title. Garnett goes nowhere every year.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Or am i not understanding the terms "size, skill and athleticism" ?


I've always said that McGrady is the most gifted *guard*, not overall player. As far as Magic being a better scorer than Jordan, that's just ridiculous Paulo. Magic was nowhere near the scorer that Jordan was. Magic's career high for a season was 24 points per game. Jordan's was 38 points per game, was never anywhere near 24 points per game at any time with the Bulls. The difference in their efficiency was slight, but the difference in volume was major, which swings it big time to Jordan. It's like comparing Eddy Curry to Amare Stoudemire.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> The only thing Ray does better than McGrady is shoot the rock. What is the "truth" of what you're saying?
> 
> Do you blame the Rockets not going past the first round on McGrady, even though he put up one of the most impressive playoff series statlines ever?


Ray makes better decisions than TMac on both an individual play by play basis, on a game-wide basis, and on a season long basis.

And yes, I do blame it TMac. There's more to this game than scoring. A great player maximizes the talents of hte players they are playing w/. There were seemingly countless possessions where it was either all TMac, or one pass and then TMac. Its not an accident that you lose when you play that way. Remember when Jordan dropped 63 on the Celtics? They lost the game. It takes a team. And TMac doesn't get that. RayRay does.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Spriggan said:


> The only thing Ray does better than McGrady is shoot the rock. What is the "truth" of what you're saying?
> 
> Do you blame the Rockets not going past the first round on McGrady, even though he put up one of the most impressive playoff series statlines ever?



Player G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG 
Tracy McGrady 7 7 43.0 .456 .370 .824 1.70 5.70 7.40 6.7 1.57 1.43 3.71 2.90 30.7 

Is this it?


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> No, it's an attempt to show you how inconsistent you and other people are with the winner/loser argument. Do you also consider Ben Wallace better than Kevin Garnett? How about that, Ben Wallace is the best player on the Pistons, he led his team to a title. Garnett goes nowhere every year.


Sure.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> If we are regarding "size, skill and athleticism", how can one question Wilt's #1 spot?
> 
> Size? Obviously. 7'1 of it.
> 
> ...


I'm talking about overall skills. The complete package. The most talented player would almost surely have to be a perimeter player, just because they tend to be considerably more skilled than dominant big men.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Its too bad that TMac fans don't understand basketball. But then again, its not that surprising because neither does TMac!!!!!!


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Player G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
> Tracy McGrady 7 7 43.0 .456 .370 .824 1.70 5.70 7.40 6.7 1.57 1.43 3.71 2.90 30.7
> 
> Is this it?


Yep.


----------



## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Its too bad that TMac fans don't understand basketball. But then again, its not that surprising because neither does TMac!!!!!!


what the deal with your grudge with t-mac? i mean im sure many fans think a player is bad, but they dont center their lives around it.... go ahead and hate him... we really dont care.


JUST STOP WASTING BB.NET BANDWITH


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

It's too bad guys like Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady don't understand the game like Kobe Bryant and Manu Ginobili, or else they'd have some rings.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

BenGordon said:


> Tracy Mcgrady is very good but to say hes better then all three of these HOFers put together or even one of them is really overlooking his skill.


 I didnt say better than all 3 ..although he might just go down in history being better than all 3

Dr. J + Gervin + Pip = McGrady means he has characteristics of all 3. 

All are long 6'7/6'8 atheltic players. Dr. J was the most athletic of the 3....McGrady has his athleticism. Gervin's the best scorer of the 3....McGrady is one of the most prolific scorers this league has ever seen. Pip's most versitale of the 3....McGrady has his versitality.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> Its too bad that TMac fans don't understand basketball. But then again, its not that surprising because neither does TMac!!!!!!


So McGrady doesn't understand basketball, yet he's able to do the things he does. So you agree that he is the most talented player ever, after all.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

I would say yes, until LeBron fully develops.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Spriggan said:


> Yep.


Come on, Spriggs, how can you call that "one of the most impressive playoff series statlines *ever*?"

You call me a homer, but your exagerations about T-Mac are simply ludicrous.

I bet i could dig up (given the time, off course) at least 40 better playoff series than that!

Heck, i bet MJ alone has 15 better ones!


----------



## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Come on, Spriggs, how can you call that "one of the most impressive playoff series statlines *ever*?"
> 
> You call me a homer, but your exagerations about T-Mac are simply ludicrous.
> 
> ...


name 40 right now....

i will give you a full day


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

tone wone said:


> I didnt say better than all 3 ..although he might just go down in history being better than all 3
> 
> Dr. J + Gervin + Pip = McGrady means he has characteristics of all 3. All are long 6'7/6'8 atheltic players. Dr. J was the most athletic of the 3....*McGrady has his athleticism*. Gervin's the best scorer of the 3....McGrady *is one ofthe most prolific scorers this league has ever seen*. Pip's most versitale....McGrady has his versitality.


Oh, brother!


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> There were seemingly countless possessions where it was either all TMac, or one pass and then TMac. Its not an accident that you lose when you play that way.


:laugh:

I never realized you were such a Tmac hater.

BTW - What you described above could otherwise be known as the "Doc River's Offense" ... of course, there were so many other options on the team to go to.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

farhan007 said:


> name 40 right now....
> 
> i will give you a full day


What's the wager? :groucho: 

And do Final series count (more easier to find?)


----------



## Deke (Jul 27, 2005)

tone wone said:


> I didnt say better than all 3 ..although he might just go down in history being better than all 3
> 
> Dr. J + Gervin + Pip = McGrady means he has characteristics of all 3. All are long 6'7/6'8 atheltic players. Dr. J was the most athletic of the 3....McGrady has his athleticism. Gervin's the best scorer of the 3....McGrady is one ofthe most prolific scorers this league has ever seen. Pip's most versitale....McGrady has his versitality.


are you serious saying Mcgrady is as good a shooter as gervin? Gervin constantly was a above .500 shooter almost every season. Mcgrady has never even done it once.

Pippen locked down any player in the league, its obvious mcgrady hasnt developed that skill if you've seen him in last years playoffs. Pip constantly shut down high powered offenses unlike Mcgrady agaist the mavericks.


----------



## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

i find some inconsistancy with seanet..... 

he gives ALL the blame to mcgrady for a 19 win season
and he gives NO credit for a 51 season......


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

BenGordon said:


> are you serious saying Mcgrady is as good a shooter as gervin? Gervin constantly was a above .500 shooter almost every season. Mcgrady has never even done it once.
> 
> Pippen locked down any player in the league, its obvious mcgrady hasnt developed that skill if you've seen him in last years playoffs. Pip constantly shut down high powered offenses unlike Mcgrady agaist the mavericks.


why did you quote me if you didn't bother to read what I typed..

where exactly did I mention shooting in reguards to Gervin and defense in reguards to Pippen???

where???


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Come on, Spriggs, how can you call that "one of the most impressive playoff series statlines *ever*?"
> 
> You call me a homer, but your exagerations about T-Mac are simply ludicrous.
> 
> ...


30.7 ppg, 7.4 boards, 6.7 assists, 1.6 steals and 1.4 blocks.

Taking into account the era of basketball, yes, I would say that's one of the most impressive ever. Particularly for a perimeter player.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

farhan007 said:


> i find some inconsistancy with seanet.....


The whole winner/loser argument has always been incredibly inconsistent. That's the reason he won't go deeper into it, because it's such an easy theory (or religion, if you will) to disprove, and it's important for anyone who actually believes this winner/loser stuff to remain as vague and sarcastic as possible. As soon as the discussion gets real, the theory is done away with pretty quickly.


----------



## Deke (Jul 27, 2005)

tone wone said:


> I didnt say better than all 3 ..although he might just go down in history being better than all 3
> 
> Dr. J + Gervin + Pip = McGrady means he has characteristics of all 3.
> 
> Gervin's the best scorer of the 3....McGrady is one of the most prolific scorers this league has ever seen. Pip's most versitale of the 3....McGrady has his versitality.


Mcgrady is one of the most prolific scorers huh? i guess Damon Jones is the greatest too because he has an even higher shooting %?

part of Versatility is defense and how you play each position.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

BenGordon said:


> Mcgrady is one of the most prolific scorers huh? i guess Damon Jones is the greatest too because he has an even higher shooting %?
> 
> part of Versatility is defense and how you play each position.


 hell yea, he's one of the most prolific scorers "i've" ever seen

and as for the versitility you made my argument....who was mcgrady guarding in this years playoffs? a 7 foot power foward..

if that aint versitlity I dont know what is


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

BenGordon said:


> Mcgrady is one of the most prolific scorers huh? i guess Damon Jones is the greatest too because he has an even higher shooting %?


What the hell are you talking about?


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Tmac's defense is overrated if you're basing it off the Houston Dallas playoff series. He did play him well, but Dirk also pretty much choked. Tmac was constantly beat in transition and Dirk would be able to spot up for open jumpers, he constantly got lost in screens and Dirk was able to get his shot off. The problem was just that he didn't make them. Dirk has great handles for a big man, but he can't be expected to beat Tmac off the dribble because hes 7'0 and Tmac is 6'8, and when Avery Johnson started to post up and isolate Dirk when they went into their half court sets, it made McGrady's job that much easier, particuarlly since he has such long arms.


----------



## Deke (Jul 27, 2005)

tone wone said:


> hell yea, he's one of the most prolific scorers "i've" ever seen
> 
> and as for the versitility you made my argument....who was mcgrady guarding in this years playoffs? a 7 foot power foward..
> 
> if that aint versitlity I dont know what is


how succesful was he guarding him then? well rockets lost the series after being ahead 2-0, and even more contributing to it is his lack of ability to shutdown a defense was his days on the magic. Mcgrady isnt a bad defender but hes not on Pips level as a defender like you claim.

As a scorer hes not even top 10, although he is on the best players in the league. definately not one of the greatest scorers of alltime, he never even has had a season above .500

hes a great complete player but hes not the greatest defensive,or offensive player in the game.


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

MJ and Kobe are definitely two players who I consider more talented than T-mac(what can T-mac most certainly do better then these two aside from long-range shooting?).


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> If that's how you choose to extrapolate, well... whatever. If Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups played the same roll on their teams that JKidd does, that would make some kind of sense. But its just an attempt to jab at me through JKidd. Have your fun.


No, it was a successful attempt to show that you apply your "logic" selectively, based on which players you love and which you do not.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Where's Paulo at, I wonder? Still searching for those 40 imaginary superior playoff series stats?


----------



## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

What was Gervin most noted for? Shooting and scoring.

T-Mac is DEFINTELY BETTER at BOTh than Gervin was, and has not even hit his peak yet.


What about Dr. J's athleticism?

44" vertical at 6'7"

well T-Mac has 42" and is actually 6'9 1/2", because as is well known around the league he was measured at 6'8" when he was 17.

So 44" hops at 6-7 or 42" hops at 6-9 1/2? Hmmmm.......

And REMEMBER this kid ended up with a 7'3" wingspan.


PUT THAT IN PERSPECTIVE

Mutombo's wingspan is 7-6
Bradley's wingspan is 7-6
Yao's wingspan is 7-5


Now onto Pippen and his defense, his ability to do all the little things, his ability to play point forward, create, handle the rock, run the offense, etc.

Well he did all that great as a 2nd option, T-Mac does all the great as a 1st option.

Also call T-Mac's defense "overrated based on Dallas series" all you want.

As great as Pippen was on defense, he was never capabale of doing something like that to Dirk.


It is well known that T-Mac is the MOST talened player there is today, NOT LeBron. It is also well known he is the MOST talented perimiter player EVER.

And YES he probably moves AHEAD of Wilt for most talented EVER overall, because of the fact that he is so versatile and has all the point guard like abilites, while being able to guard 4 different positions.


The perfect example of T-Mac's talents is this:

Back when the whole "T-Mac or Kobe" debate was raging in 2003.......

Once they faced each other both scored 21, the other time the yeach scored 38, BOTH were playing right against each other the whole game.

The INTERESTING thing about it was that all Lkers fabs could say over and over that proved Kobe was "better" than T-mac was because in those games "it looked like Kobe wanted more, he seemed hungrier, more aggresive, he played harder D, he was more competitive, he gave MORE than T-mac did, therefore he is better, even though they played evenly"


SO??????????????


Kobe gives 110 percent, T-Mac gives 90 and they just play each other evenly, and T-mac is a year younger and had no Shaq helping oepn up things.


This in and of itself is PROOF of the level of T-Mac's talent, no Laker fan can explain how Kobe is "more talented" when his giving it all and T-mac less than his all equals things out even with a younger T-Mac that has no Shaq with him.


Look at what T-Mac did to LeBron last year. Forget the game where Deke elbowed LeBron, just look at the other game, he DOMINATED him so much it was pathetic.

T-Mac almsot beat Detroit a couple years back literally by himself, and people say "that makes him worse because he can't win a series."

ONLY Jordan from his prime could have done better than T-mac did in that series at age 23.


George Karl said last year T-Mac was the 2nd best player in the West after Duncan. he said T-mac is better than KG or Kobe. He said T-Mac is the most talented perimeter player in the world, and the best perimeter player in the world, AND he said it's just a matter of time until he is the best player in the league, because "he is the MOST talented player in the world today"


On a skill/physical level T-Mac is really superior to Jordan, he just hasn't figured out the how to or the mentaility yet.

Now NONE of this means he is the best ever or going to be best ever, based on accomplishments he isn't even Kobe Bryant, BUT no one is saying that, it is simply being said that on shear God Given skills and physical attributed he IS the most gifted player ever.

LeBron is "the b-ball Jesus", and he doesn't have the gifts T-Mac does.


----------



## desmond mason for mvp (Sep 11, 2005)

OMG!!!!!!!!!!! that last kobe thread really blew out of proportion, while i was in it all i said tmac was better than kobe. But anyways now i want to fix this,there is no way tmac is most talneted player ever. i mean if this man is so talented i wonder y i never saw him fly or jump from the free throw line while clutching the balll. mj is so much more tanlented. i mean tmac wit all his talent must really not try if he is better than money mike i mean look at this. 

jordan-30 ppg- fg% 49
tmac-22ppg- fg %44

i mean tmac must really be afraid of trying he might blind us we see how talented he is in all his wisom.

and what it all comes down to is that tmac is a LOSER.
because what do losers do best, well of course lose.
while mj is a winne, a big time winner!


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

It depends on how one defines the word talent. We have had this argument before. If you grab two 7th graders who have never balled before in their lives, throw them on a basketball court and observe for a while, you will come to the conclusion that one of them is naturally better at basketball than the other. Size, athleticism, and natural instincts matter. Gifted is a good term to use as well. 

That said, Mcgrady and Vince Carter are probably the 2 most talented players I have ever watched play basketball.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

desmond mason for mvp said:


> But anyways now i want to fix this,there is no way tmac is most talneted player ever. i mean if this man is so talented i wonder y i never saw him fly or jump from the free throw line while clutching the balll. mj is so much more tanlented.


:laugh:

You go boy!


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> No, it was a successful attempt to show that you apply your "logic" selectively, based on which players you love and which you do not.


A pathetic attempt. As TP and CB do not play anything approximating the roll that JKidd does for the Nets. The children that dominate this site, however, can't seem to understand that. Not a big surprise, though, as this board is primarily for adolescents to cream over TMac and Kobe on.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> A pathetic attempt. As TP and CB do not play anything approximating the roll that JKidd does for the Nets. The children that dominate this site, however, can't seem to understand that. Not a big surprise, though, as this board is primarily for adolescents to cream over TMac and Kobe on.



Funny, since all the people that are shooting down your pathetically ignorant arguments for which you have absolutely no rebuttal except comments like "see, its religion, not logic" are far from adolescents. 

Must be fun living in crazy world.


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

desmond mason for mvp said:


> OMG!!!!!!!!!!! that last kobe thread really blew out of proportion, while i was in it all i said tmac was better than kobe. But anyways now i want to fix this,there is no way tmac is most talneted player ever. i mean if this man is so talented i wonder y i never saw him fly or jump from the free throw line while clutching the balll. mj is so much more tanlented. i mean tmac wit all his talent must really not try if he is better than money mike i mean look at this.
> 
> jordan-30 ppg- fg% 49
> tmac-22ppg- fg %44
> ...


Professor:

If Mcgrady where to attempt and convert the dunk from the free throw line at the AS game this year, is there any chance you will consider him just as talented as MJ?


----------



## desmond mason for mvp (Sep 11, 2005)

bballlife said:


> Professor:
> 
> If Mcgrady where to attempt and convert the dunk from the free throw line at the AS game this year, is there any chance you will consider him just as talented as MJ?


u kno wat, i would, but he is not gonna do it. this ridiculous tmac and no1 had nerely the hangtime of MJ 
and hangtime translates into extreme athletism and athletism turns into talents, by the logic of many posters on this thread.

and tmac has lazy eyes, just wanted to poinnt that out, me and my friend laugh at them all the time.

i mean who wants the savior, the god of their sport to be alien-looking lazyeyesd freack, iam amazed hes related to vince and not sam cassell


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

desmond mason for mvp said:


> u kno wat, i would, but he is not gonna do it. this ridiculous tmac and no1 had nerely the hangtime of MJ
> and hangtime translates into extreme athletism and athletism turns into talents, by the logic of many posters on this thread.
> 
> and tmac has lazy eyes, just wanted to poinnt that out, me and my friend laugh at them all the time.
> ...



Oh, I see. Which players then do you think have the hangtime of MJ?


----------



## desmond mason for mvp (Sep 11, 2005)

bballlife said:


> Oh, I see. Which players then do you think have the hangtime of MJ?


ummmm hold on let me think about that, ummmmmmmmmmm no1!!!!!!!!
except maybe my 2nd counsin desmond, lol.


----------



## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

Yes, I'm a Lakers fan, but McGrady is the most talented ever. 

He simply has tools that MJ, Kobe, Dr. J, etc can't compare. He's a listed 6'8", probably closer to 6'9". Has worked on his jumpshot to the point where he's up there with Ray Allen. Has the speed, hops, etc. Has the length and great strides. He also has great lateral movement, unlike LeBron who has what we call "stiff hips", which causes his lateral quickness to be only average. He's deceptively strong, holds weight well, unlike Kobe who when bulked up, looks awkward. In terms of physical ability, YES, he's the greatest physical talent. You ever see him do his left handed "rise-up" dunk? He just seems to tippy toe and dunk it as a SG!! In essence, he has the power that MJ had, the speed of Kobe, and the length size of the Dr, without the "stiff hips" of LeBron.

However, physical ability isn't everything. Put Kobe's head and competitive fire on McGrady's body, and you have the player to end all debates. McGrady simply has tools that no one else can match. Which is why I say, that if McGrady had the competitive zeal of MJ or Kobe, he'd be the GOAT, cause he's already a GREAT player, WITHOUT it.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

magic_bryant said:


> Yes, I'm a Lakers fan, but McGrady is the most talented ever.
> 
> *He simply has tools that MJ, Kobe, Dr. J, etc can't compare. He's a listed 6'8", probably closer to 6'9". Has worked on his jumpshot to the point where he's up there with Ray Allen.* Has the speed, hops, etc. Has the length and great strides. He also has great lateral movement, unlike LeBron who has what we call "stiff hips", which causes his lateral quickness to be only average. He's deceptively strong, holds weight well, unlike Kobe who when bulked up, looks awkward. In terms of physical ability, YES, he's the greatest physical talent. You ever see him do his left handed "rise-up" dunk? *He just seems to tippy toe and dunk it as a SG!! In essence, he has the power that MJ had, the speed of Kobe*, and the length size of the Dr, without the "stiff hips" of LeBron.
> 
> However, physical ability isn't everything. Put Kobe's head and competitive fire on McGrady's body, and you have the player to end all debates. McGrady simply has tools that no one else can match. Which is why I say, that if McGrady had the competitive zeal of MJ or Kobe, he'd be the GOAT, cause he's already a GREAT player, WITHOUT it.


McGrady as a jumpshooter can't even compare to Allen. Hes a decent 3 pt shooter, and he catches fire pretty easily, but he doesn't create his shot one on one as well as Allen, nor does he catch and shoot as well as Allen does. Also, hes a step slower than guys like Kobe, hes still pretty quick for his size and is quite agile (as compared to someone like Lebron who seems sort of.... clumsy?), but doesn't have the pure quickness nor speed that Kobe does. Other than that, your post is ok.


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Tmac is not more gifted then Jordan.

Tmac has 3 inches on MJ and is a better jumpshooter. But after that Jordan had a far quicker first step and bigger hops then Tmac. At a comparable level in there career, Jordan also had two significant parameters he was stronger and this led him to be far more durable then McGrady.

Also people forget how good Grant Hill was before the injury. Just as tall as Tmac, just as athletic, less of a shooter but a better ball handler and a quicker first step.


----------



## Deke (Jul 27, 2005)

i wouldnt say hes most talented because what does most talented mean if your not the best in the game?


----------



## desmond mason for mvp (Sep 11, 2005)

magic_bryant said:


> Yes, I'm a Lakers fan, but McGrady is the most talented ever.
> He simply has tools that MJ, Kobe, Dr. J, etc can't compare. He's a listed 6'8", probably closer to 6'9". Has worked on his jumpshot to the point where he's up there with Ray Allen. Has the speed, hops, etc. Has the length and great strides. He also has great lateral movement, unlike LeBron who has what we call "stiff hips", which causes his lateral quickness to be only average. He's deceptively strong, holds weight well, unlike Kobe who when bulked up, looks awkward. In terms of physical ability, YES, he's the greatest physical talent. You ever see him do his left handed "rise-up" dunk? He just seems to tippy toe and dunk it as a SG!! In essence, he has the power that MJ had, the speed of Kobe, and the length size of the Dr, without the "stiff hips" of LeBron.
> However, physical ability isn't everything. Put Kobe's head and competitive fire on McGrady's body, and you have the player to end all debates. McGrady simply has tools that no one else can match. Which is why I say, that if McGrady had the competitive zeal of MJ or Kobe, he'd be the GOAT, cause he's already a GREAT player, WITHOUT it.


alright, this whole post is ridiculous, hes a lazzyeyd loser stop saying hes more talented than mj thats ridiculous, i see wat ur trying to say its that he is as talented as mj but just taller, even wit the height hes not, u must have never seen mj play. i kno i may seeem ridiculous for posting all of this but i still think hes better than kobe not mj. and if u guys keep sayin athletism is talent, well than ai is the most talented player ever, imagine him wit even 2 inches more.

as for the 11 of u who posted tmac is the most talented ever, all of u dseserve to be slapped across the face!!


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

desmond mason for mvp said:


> u kno wat, i would, but he is not gonna do it. this ridiculous tmac and no1 had nerely the hangtime of MJ
> and hangtime translates into extreme athletism and athletism turns into talents, by the logic of many posters on this thread.
> 
> and tmac has lazy eyes, just wanted to poinnt that out, me and my friend laugh at them all the time.
> ...


Why don't you try to present some kind of real argument besides bringing up completely inconsequential things like being able to dunk from the free throw line and Tmac's lazy eye. You just sound plain childish.

And for the record - Tmac probably could do the free throw line dunk earlier in his career with his athleticism and wingspan. Not that that has anything to do with anything.


----------



## DPSF4 (Jun 19, 2005)

The only argument i see that TMac fans have given for him being the most talented is that he is tall.


----------



## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

DPSF4 said:


> The only argument i see that TMac fans have given for him being the most talented is that he is tall.


Then you don't read so good.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

DPSF4 said:


> The only argument i see that TMac fans have given for him being the most talented is that he is tall.



Just to clarify - a couple of the people making the argument that Tmac is the most talented are actually *Kobe* fans.


----------



## DPSF4 (Jun 19, 2005)

No that is not the reason as far as reading goes, but you just spit false words that you ,or whoever said Tmac is better than MJ want us to take as fact.


----------



## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

DPSF4 said:


> No that is not the reason as far as reading goes, but you just spit false words that you ,or whoever said Tmac is better than MJ want us to take as fact.


I don't think anyone in this entire thread said TMac is better than MJ.


----------



## desmond mason for mvp (Sep 11, 2005)

JNice said:


> Why don't you try to present some kind of real argument besides bringing up completely inconsequential things like being able to dunk from the free throw line and Tmac's lazy eye. You just sound plain childish.
> 
> And for the record - Tmac probably could do the free throw line dunk earlier in his career with his athleticism and wingspan. Not that that has anything to do with anything.



i like tmac, i really do love him as player. but what iam trying to point out is that the chosen one cant be lazy-eyed, the chosen one has to be perfect like jordan, i mean tmac has a stupid face and i doubt some1 wit a stupid facce could ever the jesus of this sport

so u see his lazy-eyes have everything to do wit it!


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

Pioneer10 said:


> Also people forget how good Grant Hill was before the injury. Just as tall as Tmac, just as athletic, less of a shooter but a better ball handler and a quicker first step.


Grant also had quicker baseline to baseline speed than TMac. The way LeBron runs the full distance of the court is the way Grant used to do it. But Grant was so graceful, it was like a gazelle going down the court (long strides, like 5 steps got him from halfcourt to a lay up, unreal). And the other day, I was looking at classic Grant Hill clips and Hill's crossover was even nastier than I remember it being. Totally sick. For a man his size, I've never seen a better crossover.


----------



## DPSF4 (Jun 19, 2005)

they may not have said it , but Ming 6 7 and Carbo think so seeing as they both claim he is a mix of Gervin,Erving, and Pippen. If that were true he would be the goat easily. TMac is talented but not the most talented ever.


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

magic_bryant said:


> Yes, I'm a Lakers fan, but McGrady is the most talented ever.
> 
> Put *Kobe's head* and competitive fire on McGrady's body, and you have the player to end all debates. McGrady simply has tools that no one else can match. Which is why I say, that if McGrady had the competitive zeal of MJ or Kobe, he'd be the GOAT, cause he's already a GREAT player, WITHOUT it.


Kobe's head? That wouldn't help much 

Competitive fire and Kobe's fearlessness is what T-mac needs most.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> Tmac is not more gifted then Jordan.
> 
> Tmac has 3 inches on MJ and is a better jumpshooter. But after that Jordan had a far quicker first step and bigger hops then Tmac. At a comparable level in there career, Jordan also had two significant parameters he was stronger and this led him to be far more durable then McGrady.
> 
> Also people forget how good Grant Hill was before the injury. Just as tall as Tmac, just as athletic, less of a shooter but a better ball handler and a quicker first step.


 it all depends I guess.

Jordan would be considered the better athlete cause he was much quicker and was stronger...but like you said McGrady is the better shooter and btw his handle is far better than Jordans'...

its like he's built exactly like Pippen but he's quicker, faster and more explosive than Scottie


----------



## Deke (Jul 27, 2005)

tone wone said:


> it all depends I guess.
> 
> Jordan would be considered the better athlete cause he was much quicker and was stronger...but like you said McGrady is the better shooter and btw his handle is far better than Jordans'...
> 
> its like he's built exactly like Pippen but he's quicker, faster and more explosive than Scottie


more offensive but a huge step off defensively.


----------



## DPSF4 (Jun 19, 2005)

Hakeem Olajuwon also should get recognition as one of the most purely talented players ever just for the simple fact that he didn't even play basketball until his mid teens.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

DPSF4 said:


> they may not have said it , but Ming 6 7 and Carbo think so seeing as they both claim he is a mix of Gervin,Erving, and Pippen. If that were true he would be the goat easily. TMac is talented but not the most talented ever.


 why is it so hard for people understand that statement..

throw them in a pot and stir em up and you'll get McGrady


----------



## DPSF4 (Jun 19, 2005)

It would be more understandable if you gave specific skill sets and not just say blend all of these players up and he equals them, or like I said he would be the goat.


----------



## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

Spriggan and I aren't saying that McGrady is the best player ever. Just that he's the most gifted player. He doesn't have Ray Allen's shot, but almost as nice. Doesn't have Kobe's quickness, but close. Doesn't have MJ's power and strength, but close. Doesn't have KG's length, but is the SG version and is much quicker than KG. He's the overall player. He has all these great athletes, greatest GOD GIVEN physical TOOLS. 

He's not a better player than MJ. Probably not better than Kobe. Definitely not KG. But if given the same fearlessness of Kobe and MJ, he'd leave the two in the dust. However, these just aren't things you can learn. They're who you ARE.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

DPSF4 said:


> It would be more understandable if you gave specific skill sets and not just say blend all of these players up and he equals them, or like I said he would be the goat.


 look back a couple pages..


----------



## desmond mason for mvp (Sep 11, 2005)

another HUGE reason tmac is overrated is the effect of his lazy eyes. when a defender is playing defense on tmac they think he is looking away, but he really is looking at them, so by doing this he confuses them and gets past them easily and scores easy baskets.


----------



## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

desmond mason for mvp said:


> another HUGE reason tmac is overrated is the effect of his lazy eyes. when a defender is playing defense on tmac they think he is looking away, but he really is looking at them, so by doing this he confuses them and gets past them easily and scores easy baskets.


Just stop. You're not funny.


----------



## desmond mason for mvp (Sep 11, 2005)

Diophantos said:


> Just stop. You're not funny.


iam being serious


----------



## DPSF4 (Jun 19, 2005)

I disagree with Tmac = Gervin in shooting because while TMac has more range on his jumper he also takes bad percentage shots. His midrange game isn't as good as Gervins either.


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

People seem to be confusing actual learned skills with natural ability. The whole Idea is that basketball players are blocks of clay, and Mcgrady needs to do the least amount of work to have the best sculpture. 

I don't know if that made a whole lot of sense, but hopefully someone gets it.


----------



## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

^^ Exactly!!!


----------



## DPSF4 (Jun 19, 2005)

I understand that he is the most purely talented because of his skill , but talent and pure talent are two diffrent things.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

I don't think it's clear-cut that McGrady is the most talented player ever, but I think it's arguable. Along with players like Jordan, Robertson, Bryant, Garnett.

Athletically, McGrady can compare with anyone. Jordan, in later seasons, was stronger, but McGrady is taller and has an absurd wingspan. He's just as quick, fast and explosive a leaper as Jordan, in my opinion. It doesn't seem that way because McGrady doesn't abuse defenses the way Jordan did, but a great deal of that is era. Jordan took it to the hoop for dunks nearly at will because teams didn't employ collapsing zones like they do today. They played much more man defense, which means that if Jordan beat his man, he had a much freer route to the hoop. Today, teams drop players into the paint to challenge and/or foul any penetrator. Detroit's "Jordan Rules" are now the order of the day for all teams against all slashers.

McGrady has one of the best mid-range games I've ever seen. Jordan also had an exceptional one later in his career, but McGrady has it an advanced age. McGrady has the polish to his game that it took Jordan a while to develop. Both players are/were streaky perimeter shooters.

McGrady is as adept a ball-handler and passer as Jordan was.

The major difference is Jordan's commitment to defense, which was greater than McGrady's has been. Some of that is circumstantial, but a lot of it is to do with Jordan's incredible endurance and will, which is unmatched by any player I've seen in my viewing lifetime (since around 1985-86).

So, I could certainly see Jordan being placed ahead of McGrady, because endurance and will are part of talent. I think McGrady is in the discussion, though, as is Bryant. I think talk about Bryant having greater will or "fire" is overstated, mostly due to on-court demeanor. Bryant is more visibly intense, but I don't think intensity _has_ to engender scowls and grimaces.


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

I got to see Mike when he was a Bull a few times and I've seen McGrady in person too. I got the impression Jordan was a quicker leaper than McGrady. When I saw Tracy in the flesh, the height of his jumps were more impressive to me than his speed. Jordan was so shifty (like Barry Sanders) in person, it wasn't until after he jumped or made a move that you picked up on it.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> I don't think it's clear-cut that McGrady is the most talented player ever, but I think it's arguable. Along with players like Jordan, Robertson, Bryant, Garnett.
> 
> Athletically, McGrady can compare with anyone. Jordan, in later seasons, was stronger, but McGrady is taller and has an absurd wingspan. He's just as quick, fast and explosive a leaper as Jordan, in my opinion. It doesn't seem that way because McGrady doesn't abuse defenses the way Jordan did, but a great deal of that is era. Jordan took it to the hoop for dunks nearly at will because teams didn't employ collapsing zones like they do today. They played much more man defense, which means that if Jordan beat his man, he had a much freer route to the hoop. Today, teams drop players into the paint to challenge and/or foul any penetrator. Detroit's "Jordan Rules" are now the order of the day for all teams against all slashers.
> 
> ...



I agree. I think it can be *argued* that Tmac has the most natural all-around talent ever. It is not really an argument that can be won - just like the Tmac and Kobe arguments. But the argument can be made, which is impressive enough. I think you can make arguments Jordan, Oscar, Magic, KG, Kobe, and Lebron as well.


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

I've watched Jordan in his prime (before his first retirement) and Tmac through his career: McGrady is very fluent but I agree with Remy in that in terms of explosion in terms of both first step and quickness of leaping, Jordan wins hands down. I also don't agree with that Tmac has a better handler then Jordan, the MJ I saw shifted directions as good as any basketball player I'ver ever seen

Also by age 26 Jordan was very strong for the SG position. Also another thing to factor is in just plain athletic endurance (as previously mentioned by Minstrel)- something which I think is very underated. Jordan before his first retirement had more energy to devote to both sides of the court then any player I've seen. Both McGrady and Kobe can come close in other areas but they fall way short here

So in terms of natural "gifts" this is where I rank them:
Hops:
MJ 10 Tmac 10 Kobe 10
First Step
MJ 10 Kobe 9 Tmac 8
Height
Tmac 10 Kobe 8 MJ 8
Wingspan
Tmac 10 MJ 8 Kobe 7
Hands 
MJ 10 Tmac 8 Kobe 6
Second Jump
MJ 10 Kobe 9 Tmac 7
Endurance
MJ 10 Tmac 7 Kobe 7

Skills
Ballhandling
all about equal
Shooting
Tmac 10 Kobe 8 MJ 7
Left Hand
MJ 9 Tmac 7 Kobe 7

For his height I will argue again that Grant Hill in terms of pure athleticism and verstatility was as good as anybody at the 6'9" height


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

JNice said:


> I agree. I think it can be *argued* that Tmac has the most natural all-around talent ever.


not feasibly it can't. just look at the poll results upstairs.


> It is not really an argument that can be won - *just like the Tmac and Kobe arguments.* But the argument can be made, which is impressive enough.


you really typed this out haha. makes me think you are trying harder to convince yourself of its truthfulness, rather than all of us.


----------



## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

Grant Hill said the first day he played at practice with Orlando, T-Mac beast him 21-13 in a game of 21, "astonished him he was so good"



I'm not taking away anything from Grant he was really great, but he was not in T-Mac's league.


I NEVER said T-Mac was better than Jordan, I said based on accomplishments even Kobe would be better, what I said was based on all around intangibles and God given attributes, T-Mac is the most gifted player EVER.

And yes I put him over Wilt because of his versatility, the big man is at the guard's mercy, T-Mac has the ball.


And no he does not have the heart or will YET as we know Jordan had, who knows?

But if T-Mac reached his potential he would be the GOAT.

Also Jordan's prime age vertical was about 44 or 46 inches was it not?

That's not that much above T-Mac's 42.


T-Mac just doesn't have the mentailit to dunk on people like Jordan did. But that dunk T-Mac had on Bradley ranks up there with ANY dunk I EVER saw Jordan do in a game, even watching the old clips of 80s Jordan.


But T-Mac is a better shooter so, of course people say that makes him worse because he is streaky.

As far as quickness yes Jordan was quicker, but not by that much, if you consider the size difference I actually think T-Mac is quicker than Pippen was.

And Kobe isn't clearly quicker than T-Mac, because Kobe blows by T-Mac, but T-Mac blows by Kobe too, I would say Kobe is a little bit quicker.


And the poster that said Gervin had a better mid range game than T-Mac is wrong period. You must not be seeing mutch of T-Mac, his mid range game is basically AUTOMATIC.

IF T-mac can't get a title with that Houston core and JVG then I don't think he's going to live up to his talent, but I personally think this WILL be the year he is accepted as the league's best player.


----------



## desmond mason for mvp (Sep 11, 2005)

Ming_7_6 said:


> Grant Hill said the first day he played at practice with Orlando, T-Mac beast him 21-13 in a game of 21, "astonished him he was so good"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


a game of 21 among nba players proves nothin
second of all i bet u think yao is better than shaq just like u think this year tmac will be accepted as the best this year wen he is not even close


----------



## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

Shall I bookmark this thread so I can say owned later on?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

bballlife said:


> People seem to be confusing actual learned skills with natural ability. The whole Idea is that basketball players are blocks of clay, and Mcgrady needs to do the least amount of work to have the best sculpture.
> 
> I don't know if that made a whole lot of sense, but hopefully someone gets it.


If that's what you're saying then Lebron James has less he needs to do. T-Mac is maybe an inch taller, but Lebron is much much much stronger. He's working with more cards in the deck. And if you factor in things like awareness, Lebron has two good eyes, which puts him ahead of ol' one eye when it comes to seeing the floor.

For my money, KG and Lebron are the most talented players to have entered the league in the modern era.


----------



## Omer (Sep 12, 2005)

Tracy McGrady may not be the greatest player of all time in skill/talent but I strongly believe that he is the best player in the league right now.

Have you seen anyone else drop 13 points in 35 seconds?
Nail consecutive threes from well behind the line?
Explosive energy and dunk skill as good as it gets?


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

jordan, imo, was the most exposively quick tall guard in nba history. i think his advantage in quickness and explosiveness is clear over mcgrady. he also had ridiculous sized hands. mcgrady's advantage is length and a long range shot. the same advantages he has on kobe.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

kg has the height. he's inferior in every other "talent". but the height thing is huge.

i guess we're really asking who made the most of their talent, and who's underutilizing theirs. but if things like height count for talent, which obviously they do in this discussion, then we should rethink the discussion. because if we're saying production is a combination of talent + work ethic + desire, then i'd guess we'd have to rank shaq pretty high in the talent aspect, right?

how much better can mcgrady be? i think it's a stretch to say if he applied the work ethic + desire he'd be the unquestioned best player. probably a bit insulting to him as well.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

sherako said:


> not feasibly it can't. just look at the poll results upstairs.


No, actually feasibly, it can be argued. 

I'm not sure how pointing to the poll supports you any. First, there are an *entire* 44 votes. Second, Tmac still has more than a third of the vote. Certainly a percentage warranting an "argument" ....




> you really typed this out haha. makes me think you are trying harder to convince yourself of its truthfulness, rather than all of us.


You are one of the few irrational people who believe there is no argument. That is fine. Go on living in your little world of denial.


----------



## Dooch (Aug 1, 2005)

Tracy McGrady is not the most talented ever.. but one of the most talented basketball players to play this game of basketball game... because you cannot exclude the many great names that have played before players like T-Mac, J-Kidd, VC, etc.. But he is a very talented basketball player and he gained my respect.. :banana:


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Omer said:


> Tracy McGrady may not be the greatest player of all time in skill/talent but I strongly believe that he is the best player in the league right now.
> 
> Have you seen anyone else drop 13 points in 35 seconds?
> Nail consecutive threes from well behind the line?
> Explosive energy and dunk skill as good as it gets?


A bit off topic, but the thought of McGradys incredible heroic 13points in 35 seconds game. Reminded me of the Dominique Wilkins Larry Bird duel in the 1988 ECSF game 7.

Larry Legend scoring 20 in the last quarter -- he hit 9-of-10 shots -- the Celtics won, 118-116.

Although Nique out scored Larry 47 to 34. A legendary game every one should see at least once.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Leave Seanet along guys. He is a human being with decent basketball knowledge, if u want to bash someone, bash me. Quote me, challenge me. See who can win any arguements against me?


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

John said:


> Leave Seanet along guys. He is a human being with decent basketball knowledge, if u want to bash someone, bash me. Quote me, challenge me. See who can win any arguements against me?


 ...........

"had a spark when you started.....now you're just garbage" - Jay-Z


----------



## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

I would say Lebron James is the most gifted and talented player ever.


----------



## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

If LeBron had the lateral quickness, he'd be above McGrady. However, as I've already stated, has "stiff hips", which causes him to look "clumsy" on Offense as someone else called it, and makes him a defensive liability. He simply doesn't have the tools necessary to be a GREAT perimeter Defender. 

KG, if he had the "quicks" and handle that McGrady has, he'd be above McGrady as well. However, he doesn't. He can use his length on D, but not on O. McGrady can bring the ball up from one end to the other. KG can't. 

Jordan's quickness is somewhat overrated in his early years. He looks so quick because of the defenses being played and the LACK of players specifically used for being "long, athletic defender". A guy like Bowen probably doesn't even make an NBA roster in the 80s cause of his lack of offense.


----------



## DPSF4 (Jun 19, 2005)

Ming 7 9 i have seen plenty of Tracy's midrange game but the Icemans was better. Gervin took more shots or about the same as McGrady, but was more effective than McGrady from the field.


----------



## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

T-Mac is not the most talented ever. In terms of physical features and capability, he is very gifted.


----------



## desmond mason for mvp (Sep 11, 2005)

John said:


> Leave Seanet along guys. He is a human being with decent basketball knowledge, if u want to bash someone, bash me. Quote me, challenge me. See who can win any arguements against me?


wow, some1 told me today i was poor man's john. now that i have seen one of posts u sound exaclty like me, for reference go to how will kobe be remembered thread. i think we might be realted.


----------



## yaysports (Sep 12, 2005)

I agree he's gifted and talented, but the most talented ever? I don't think he's up there. One way I look at it is say, MJ could have led the league in assists had he chosen to - I don't think McGrady could.

If you want to say most athletic ever, sure, he's up there. It's like the difference between running a 4.3 and a 4.31, though. Hard to say one is that much better than the next.

Until someone jumps clear over the hoop or something.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

yaysports said:


> I agree he's gifted and talented, but the most talented ever? I don't think he's up there. One way I look at it is say, MJ could have led the league in assists had he chosen to - I don't think McGrady could.


how did you come up with these conclusions???


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

Ming_7_6 said:


> Grant Hill said the first day he played at practice with Orlando, T-Mac beast him 21-13 in a game of 21, "astonished him he was so good"
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not taking away anything from Grant he was really great, but he was not in T-Mac's league.


TMac would be pure hell to guard one-on-one. Infact, it would be impossible. We can only speculate but I guarantee a preinjury Hill wouldn't be beasted by McGrady. A prime Grant Hill may still lose but I'd argue Hill in his prime (I'm having to stretch in my mind to the few times I caught him with Detroit), had the faster first step and might put McGrady on skates with that crossover. I'd still expect Tracy to win but it would have been a war.



magic_bryant said:


> If LeBron had the lateral quickness, he'd be above McGrady. However, as I've already stated, has "stiff hips", which causes him to look "clumsy" on Offense as someone else called it, and makes him a defensive liability. He simply doesn't have the tools necessary to be a GREAT perimeter Defender.


LeBron is a big 250 pound wagon. He'll never be as laterally quick as guys like McGrady. But what is interesting as having seen both guys play in person quite a few times, LeBron's north-south speed in a straight line is actually quicker than McGrady's. Even though I watch a ton of Cavs games, I keep telling people it never makes any sense to me seeing LeBron beat point guards down the floor. When he did that kind of stuff in high school, you figure it's no big deal. But much like Telfair, James sometimes makes NBA players look like high schoolers when it comes to speed and you figure the difference shouldn't be so great.


----------



## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

close thread NBA live has the answers the most talented player ever is ..................

Lebron James peep the sig


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Ron Mexico said:


> close thread NBA live has the answers the most talented player ever is ..................
> 
> Lebron James peep the sig



:laugh:

Well I guess that settles it then ...


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

desmond mason for mvp said:


> wow, some1 told me today i was poor man's john. now that i have seen one of posts u sound exaclty like me, for reference go to how will kobe be remembered thread. i think we might be realted.


[strike]LMAO, at least I wouldnt put stupid screename like Mason for MPV.[/strike] Kid, how old are you?

Not necessary. No personal attacks.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

magic_bryant said:


> If LeBron had the lateral quickness, he'd be above McGrady. However, as I've already stated, has "stiff hips", which causes him to look "clumsy" on Offense as someone else called it, and makes him a defensive liability. He simply doesn't have the tools necessary to be a GREAT perimeter Defender.
> 
> KG, if he had the "quicks" and handle that McGrady has, he'd be above McGrady as well. However, he doesn't. He can use his length on D, but not on O. McGrady can bring the ball up from one end to the other. KG can't.
> 
> Jordan's quickness is somewhat overrated in his early years. He looks so quick because of the defenses being played and the LACK of players specifically used for being "long, athletic defender". A guy like Bowen probably doesn't even make an NBA roster in the 80s cause of his lack of offense.


Well Jordans quickness overrated?.....hmmm.... And really era has nothing to do with that. There has been many quick footed athletes in all eras.

Along with the Jordan comment. I disagree about your Bowen comment. There was a team in the 80s that focused on defense. They were called the Bad Boys. They also had players that filled their roles much like Bowen does on the Spurs.








[/url][/IMG]








[/url][/IMG]








[/url][/IMG]








[/url][/IMG]








[/url][/IMG]








[/url][/IMG]








[/url][/IMG]


----------



## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

desmond mason for mvp said:


> i like tmac, i really do love him as player. but what iam trying to point out is that the chosen one cant be lazy-eyed, the chosen one has to be perfect like jordan, i mean tmac has a stupid face and i doubt some1 wit a stupid facce could ever the jesus of this sport
> 
> so u see his lazy-eyes have everything to do wit it!


so you think micheal jordan is a supermodel?
okay....


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

kflo said:


> kg has the height. he's inferior in every other "talent". but the height thing is huge.
> 
> i guess we're really asking who made the most of their talent, and who's underutilizing theirs. but if things like height count for talent, which obviously they do in this discussion, then we should rethink the discussion. because if we're saying production is a combination of talent + work ethic + desire, then i'd guess we'd have to rank shaq pretty high in the talent aspect, right?
> 
> how much better can mcgrady be? i think it's a stretch to say if he applied the work ethic + desire he'd be the unquestioned best player. probably a bit insulting to him as well.


Great post.


----------



## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

I think T-Mac is the most gifted ever. Not the most talented ever though, because IMO talents are skills and gifts are thnigs you are born with like athleticism and length. T-Mac is an athletic freak. His gifts just do so much for him. He's tall which is very crucial, plus being a wing player increases his advantage, yet he's faster and can jump higher than most wings, he's really coordinated, and he has one of the best wing spans in the league. He is only an average FT shooter. He's average at shooting but he is streaky. He doesn't drive to the basket enough as he should IMO. That is one of his problems, he doesn't fully utilize his talents. His passing is overrated, since his assist per turnover ratio is less than two to one. He is an excellent scorer, but MJ was better. He is a great rebounder for a wing, but Paul Pierce is close and Lamar Odom at small forward is better. He is a really good shotblocker, especially for a guard. 

But I think he is the most gifted but not the best because of his mindset. He isn't the most talented either. I mean, he seems really good because hes big and he can do guard things, but there are guards who have better handles, shooting, and passing.


----------



## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

Omer said:


> Tracy McGrady may not be the greatest player of all time in skill/talent but I strongly believe that he is the best player in the league right now.
> 
> Have you seen anyone else drop 13 points in 35 seconds?
> Nail consecutive threes from well behind the line?
> Explosive energy and dunk skill as good as it gets?


Have you ever seen someone lead his team to 19 straight losses?
Lead his team to 21 victories in an 82 game season?
Never get out of the first round?
Proclaim that 'it feels good to be in the 2nd round' while up 3-1 in the series and then proceed to lose the series?
Win the first 2 games of a 7 game series on the road and proceed to lose the following 2 games at home and then lose game 7 by 40 points?

If T-Mac was the most talented ever, he would be more a winner and he'd be able to get more out of his teammates and make them better.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

sherako said:


> not feasibly it can't. just look at the poll results upstairs.
> 
> you really typed this out haha. makes me think you are trying harder to convince yourself of its truthfulness, rather than all of us.


Sherako, it's so blatantly obvious you created this thread expecting for me and my opinion to be simply laughed at. You didn't expect this thread to explode to 150+ posts with many people chiming in with arguments.

You just created that "stop the hate" thread, and in it I asked you if that means you don't harbor any more hate towards McGrady, and you didn't respond. Now I know why.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

GrandKenyon6 said:


> Have you ever seen someone lead his team to 19 straight losses?
> Lead his team to 21 victories in an 82 game season?
> Never get out of the first round?
> Proclaim that 'it feels good to be in the 2nd round' while up 3-1 in the series and then proceed to lose the series?
> ...


 cause for individuals, talent and winning go hand in hand..

this whole thread...like a lot of things...went over your head


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> Sherako, it's so blatantly obvious you created this thread expecting for me and my opinion to be simply laughed at. You didn't expect this thread to explode to 150+ posts with many people chiming in with arguments.


actually that wasn't my intention at all. sometimes i'll read a thread, and someone will say something that some agree with, but not all. statements such as "yao ming is a great passer". then i create a true or false thread, contending that statement. simple as that. while your opinion isn't laughed at, it isn't shared by most (19 to 55, basically 1 in 4 agree). that would tell me that the people who do believe that, are far more riotous than those who do not, thus resulting in the explosion of this thread.



> You just created that "stop the hate" thread, and in it I asked you if that means you don't harbor any more hate towards McGrady, and you didn't respond. Now I know why.


*1*-i don't hate mcgrady.
*2*-the man is a great player, very gifted. but i dislike it when people make false statements, like saying he is better than kobe, or that he is the most gifted player of all time. thats just not true, like seanet said its desperate fans wanting to throw him a bone for lack of career success.
*3*-again, there is no ill will harbored. but if something isn't true i'm there to counteract it, regardless of player.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

I am still quite baffled why this post was made in the first place. Most talented ever? Are you kidding me. I wont even get into any arguements, I am pretty sure a Kobe thread will soon follow after this proclaiming him best ever at something.


----------



## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

There's the good old his team lost 19 games argument...


Did you KNOW?


That in 2003-2004 T-Mac's team (no Shaq on it)

Started the season 2-19????????????


Did you KNOW?

Then in 2004-2005 Kobe's team (no Shaq on it)

Finished the season 2-19???????????



The bottom line is no matter how good your star player is without any truly decent inside presence you can not win in the NBA, and to simply alwasy bring this up against T-Mac, but somehow no one ever brings it up about Kobe...........


BTW, did it ever occur to you to look at that roster of that Orlando team?


----------



## desmond mason for mvp (Sep 11, 2005)

Ming_7_6 said:


> There's the good old his team lost 19 games argument...
> 
> 
> Did you KNOW?
> ...


finnally a good post by a yao ming fan!


----------



## jminges (Aug 25, 2005)

> bottom line is no matter how good your star player is without any truly decent inside presence you can not win in the NBA


And that's why Michael Jordan is the best player ever.


----------



## jminges (Aug 25, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> What other guard has 1st tier athleticism, 1st tier basketball skills, and is 6'8 with ridiculous length (7'3 wingspan)?


Tracy McGrady is nearly 6 foot 10 with a 7 foot 4 wingspan (Kevin Garnett has a 7 foot 6 wingspan).


----------



## Kobe8Bryant11 (Jun 30, 2005)

Nah this is stupid....T-Mac is great but people are starting to blow him way out of proportion now. He is no more talented than Kobe, Vince, or Iverson. Give it a rest...they are all equal in talent....it is just how they use that talent to their personal advantage that makes them different from one another. Case closed! i can't believe that this is another 10 page thread on Tracy McGrady....the # of T-Mac fans on this board is mind blowing!


----------



## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

After this year you will know why.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

TMac..... Less a man... than a God... (last word spoken in whisper)


----------



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> TMac..... Less a man... than a God... (last word spoken in whisper)


This joke was funny at first, but McGrady is losing the poll 69-20 so maybe you should consider that this board isn't the fanboy-zone you seem to think it is.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

RP McMurphy said:


> This joke was funny at first, but McGrady is losing the poll 69-20 so maybe you should consider that this board isn't the fanboy-zone you seem to think it is.


Dude, 20 people (in the area of 25% of responders) feel that he is the most talented player to ever step on an NBA court!?!?!?!? I think the joke applies. And expect me to continue referencing it.


----------



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Dude, 20 people (in the area of 25% of responders) feel that he is the most talented player to ever step on an NBA court!?!?!?!? I think the joke applies. And expect me to continue referencing it.


Point taken.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

I'm still wondering why people act like this is some absurd argument that only true homers believe and can't even admit the possibility that McGrady's at least up there.

I'm a Tracy McGrady fanboy? But I like Kobe better, so how is that possible? And Ray Allen is my favorite player. I am probably one of only 4 people on this board who likes both Kobe and Tracy a great deal.

So maybe I think McGrady is the most talented ever because... I truly believe that? Imagine!


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> I'm still wondering why people act like this is some absurd argument that only true homers believe and can't even admit the possibility that McGrady's at least up there.
> 
> I'm a Tracy McGrady fanboy? But I like Kobe better, so how is that possible? And Ray Allen is my favorite player. I am probably one of only 4 people on this board who likes both Kobe and Tracy a great deal.
> 
> So maybe I think McGrady is the most talented ever because... I truly believe that? Imagine!


Exception that proves the rule.


----------



## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

I thought T-Mac was most "gifted" ever when he was in Orlando, I actually think that people arguning "it is ridiculous to even suggest this", THOSE people are the HOMERS, and THOSE people are HATERS period.


Just like the "Yao sucks", "Kobe sucks", etc, people.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Spriggan said:


> I'm still wondering why people act like this is some absurd argument that only true homers believe and can't even admit the possibility that McGrady's at least up there.


The problem with these threads has always been that everyone has different criterias for talent. 

That's why when people make threads like _Most TALENTED player_ I'll always say Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'Neal. They are taller and stronger, which usually leaves their name out of those kind of threads for whatever reason. Athleticism is natural too, it's something you're born with. I could never be as athletic as Kobe or McGrady no matter how much training I went through. So why is height and strength not included in "talent" but athleticism is? It doesn't make much sense. Athleticism is obviously a huge reason for the success of Kobe and McGrady, and it's not something they had to work hard for. 

The criteria is so different for so many people, making it hard to ever decide who is the most "talented" player ever. I think McGrady has the most tools of any *guard* in history, so you're not alone.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Ming_7_6 said:


> I thought T-Mac was most "gifted" ever when he was in Orlando, I actually think that people arguning "it is ridiculous to even suggest this", THOSE people are the HOMERS, and THOSE people are HATERS period.
> 
> 
> Just like the "Yao sucks", "Kobe sucks", etc, people.


Yep, its the haters out there who think that Jordan and Wilt were definitively more talented. Nothing wrong w/ the TMac worshippers. :raised_ey Hate, hate, hate, hate....


----------



## Charlotte_______ (May 18, 2003)

True, Tracy Mcgrady is the most talented ever


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Yep, its the haters out there who think that Jordan and Wilt were definitively more talented. Nothing wrong w/ the TMac worshippers. :raised_ey Hate, hate, hate, hate....


Yet it is not Tmac "worshippers" that are the only ones saying yes to this question. 

I wait, but I forgot, it is like a religion .. blah blah blahbaddy blah ... uh-huh ...


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

JNice said:


> Yet it is not Tmac "worshippers" that are the only ones saying yes to this question.
> 
> I wait, but I forgot, it is like a religion .. blah blah blahbaddy blah ... uh-huh ...


It is not 'like' a religion. It IS a religion. Sheesh.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> It is not 'like' a religion. It IS a religion. Sheesh.


LOL. So stubborn.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> It is not 'like' a religion. It IS a religion. Sheesh.



My bad, kook.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Maybe I should go start a thread about Dirk being the most talented ever. A 7ft player with a 2 guards' game, heck why not even KG. Those are current players that I think are more talented than Tmac not to mention the wilts, the MJS, the big Os etc


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Maybe I should go start a thread about Dirk being the most talented ever. A 7ft footer with a 2 guard game, heck why not even KG. Those are current players that I think are more talented than Tmac not to mention the wilts, the MJS, the big Os etc


But do they have worshippers?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> But do they have worshippers?


Not that I know of, its funny someone would even claim they worship another person


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

After downloading and watching a bunch of old Raptor games and some 04-05 Nets games this summer, I'm convinced VC is also a more talented/gifted player than T-mac. He's more athletic. Faster in the open court. Better vertical. A more explosive leaper. Better body control. His jumpshot is just as good(has always had a better 3pt %). Most importantly, superior 1-on-1 ability. Does anyone in the league possess a better 1st step then VC? The ease with which he leaves his man in the dust with one leap of that left foot is amazing. I noticed T-mac was way too reliant on screens last season with the Rockets. VC's finishing ability, of course, is fantastic and this matters because contrary to popular belief, T-mac is NOT a great finisher in the lane when contested. In fact, he can be downright mediocre at times for such an athletic player. VC also has more offensive moves in his arsenal(especially in the paint). Those floaters, hooks and runners he hits with such regularity is something I rarely even see T-mac attempt, much less make.

I still think T-mac's the better player for 2 reasons: Smarter and more consistent. He would never have a series like the one VC had against Miami.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> Maybe I should go start a thread about Dirk being the most talented ever. A 7ft player with a 2 guards' game, heck why not even KG. Those are current players that I think are more talented than Tmac not to mention the wilts, the MJS, the big Os etc



You can certainly make arguments for Dirk and/or KG.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

SPMJ said:


> After downloading and watching a bunch of old Raptor games and some some 04-05 Nets games this summer, I'm convinced VC is also a more talented/gifted player than T-mac. He's more athletic. Faster in the open court. Better vertical. A more explosive leaper. Better body control. His jumpshot is just as good(has always had a better 3pt %). Most importantly, superior 1-on-1 ability. Does anyone in the league possess a better 1st step then VC? The ease with which he leaves his man in the dust with one leap of that left foot is amazing. I noticed T-mac was way too reliant on screens last season with the Rockets. VC's finishing ability, of course, is fantastic and this matters because contrary to popular belief, T-mac is NOT a great finisher in the lane when contested. In fact, he can be downright mediocre at times for such an athletic player. VC alsohas more offensive moves in his arsenal(especially in the paint). He can hit shots i know T-mac just can't.
> 
> T-mac's still the better player for 2 reasons: Smarter and more consistent. He would never have a series like the one VC had against Miami.


Very nice post, I dont agree with the Tmac being more smarter but thats another story for another day.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

Tracy McGrady IS the blueprint on how to score for long 6'7 and up perimeter players.


----------



## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

most talented right now? arguable, KG and a few others could also be mentioned.

most talented of all time?? much much less arguable, dare I say false. all things considered, jordan, hakeem, magic were significantly more talented, and it showed in terms of hardware (rings, MVP's, etc). nice try though


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

Debt Collector said:


> most talented right now? arguable, KG and a few others could also be mentioned.
> 
> most talented of all time?? much much less arguable, dare I say false. all things considered, jordan, hakeem, magic were significantly more talented, and it showed in terms of hardware (rings, MVP's, etc). nice try though


 "it shows in the rings and hardware"

thats the lamest arguement in the history of sports...do you work for ESPN????


----------



## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

tone wone said:


> "it shows in the rings and hardware"
> 
> thats the lamest arguement in the history of sports...do you work for ESPN????



you think jordan, hakeem, and magic won MVP's by accident? talent had something to do with that. i know you need teamates too, but i could easily pull out all the statistical data you could handle if you want. I use MVP and rings because those are the highest honors a player can achieve in a given season. do you really need me to pull stats?


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Debt Collector said:


> most talented right now? arguable, KG and a few others could also be mentioned.
> 
> most talented of all time?? much much less arguable, dare I say false. all things considered, jordan, hakeem, magic were significantly more talented, and it showed in terms of hardware (rings, MVP's, etc). nice try though


Yes, those would all indicate they were better players. What's your point? It's more than talent.


----------



## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

Spriggan said:


> Yes, those would all indicate they were better players. What's your point? It's more than talent.


talent makes up a large part of it though. there's no doubt those players had a great mental makeup. but when hakeem hit you with a dream shake and rained fallaways from out to 20 feet at 7'1'', when a young jordan routinely split 3 defenders and made those incredible midair adjustments, and when you watched magic thread the needle with a 45 foot bounce pass and handle the ball seamlessly while going full speed in transition, thats more than ESP or whatever making those things happen. thats basketball skill


----------



## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

What is so hard for people to grasp here? T-Mac is the most gifted ever, GIFTED, how many times do people have to explain what that means?


A talent or a skill is something innate or intangible, or something you have in your arsenal, a weapon an ability, etc.


a gift is simply being given something NO ONE ELSE has.


And no the KG/Dirk arguments are not in the same league.


Why is it so hard for some people to comprehend this?

Where is another 6-9 1/2 guy with a 7-4 wingspan that has a 42 inch vertical (yeah Carter has 42 too people yet "he has more hops" really? SAME vertical, can play 4 different positions, handle like a guard, plsy inside or outside, run an offense, etc?)


there is no one with T-Mac's physical tools and gifts.

Some other people have tried to explain it a KG or a Dirk is an athletic big man with skills, but you can not compare that versatility to T-Mac, you can not compare Jordan to it because of size.

Think about it, could Jordan guard 7 plus foot PF's?


Wilt was not running an offense or handling the ball from the point of the backcourt, he could initaite but had to get the ball first.


Everyone that understands the game well knows that players like Robertson, Dr. J, Bird, Magic, Jordan those types of players are the ones that can have the most complete gifts because they can combine it all together without size being a hindrance as well as a help.


T-Mac is simply the highest form of that player from a physical sense.

The bottom line is there is a higher ceiling for T-Mac than anyone else, because he could do anything Jordan could and more.

Some people are in denial on that. Reading this thread it is so obvious how little of T-Mac people have sen. People know all about Duncan, Shaq, KG, Kobe, Wade, etc., but they just don't have any idea about T-Mac.

And as for Carter, people are confusing dunking ability with play on the court. Carter is the most amazing dunker ever by FAR, but to be honest T-Mac >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe, Kobe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Carter.


----------



## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

^^ Exactly!! 

How many times does it need to be said? T-Mac's MAX potential is higher than ANY player. Jordan, widely regarded as the best PLAYER ever and one of the most phenomenal ATHLETES in basketball history, MAXIMIZED his potential to the fullest. Well, because T-Mac is pretty much on par with everything Jordan did ATHLETICALLY, not skills he LEARNED, but in terms of ATHLETICISM, T-Mac therefore, has a HIGHER potential. If he would EVER maximize his potential, he'd be the GOAT. 

T-Mac is close in terms of hops, speed, LATERAL quickness (something LeBron DOESN'T have and NEVER WILL, same for Dirk, KG isn't as laterally quick as T-Mac) to MJ. But is WAY stronger than MJ ever was. Also, T-Mac has Pippen's length. 

YES, KG, Kobe, MJ, Big O, Magic, are/were ALL better players than T-Mac, because they maximized their TALENT moreso than McGrady has yet to do. But they do NOT have the talent T-Mac does.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

I don't see how anyone could think they were justified in saying definitively, as many here are, that TMac is more talented than Michael Jordan, and Wilt Chamberlain. When I talk about the delusion etc. of fans of certain players, this is the kind of thing I mean. I mean we're talking about Michael ****ing Jordan and Wilt ****ing Chamberlain. And over 20% of people believe TMac is more gifted or talented or whatever. Its absurd. Not even getting into Wilt's specific gifts (sprint champion, high jumper (I believe I read), etc.)Wilt Chamberlain is a man who averaged 50 points in a season. *AND* 25 rebounds. That is inconceivable. Oh, and then one year he decided to lead the league in assists, and he did. Yes, he was a man before his time, physically, but that is still completely and totally inconceivable. He was so dominant they changed the rules in an attempt to slow him down (the lane shape). How 'talented' or 'gifted' do you think he had to have been, in any era, to exhibit that kind of domination? And I shouldn't even have to mention Michael Jordan. Wtf? Didn't you guys see him play? Or are you that young?


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

magic_bryant said:


> ^^ Exactly!!
> 
> How many times does it need to be said? T-Mac's MAX potential is higher than ANY player. Jordan, widely regarded as the best PLAYER ever and one of the most phenomenal ATHLETES in basketball history, MAXIMIZED his potential to the *fullest. Well, because T-Mac is pretty much on par with everything Jordan did ATHLETICALLY,* not skills he LEARNED, but in terms of ATHLETICISM, T-Mac therefore, has a HIGHER potential. If he would EVER maximize his potential, he'd be the GOAT.
> 
> ...


What makes you think anyone should believe the bolded portion? What evidence is there for that? I'm just supposed to take your word for it?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Jordan would of loved the challenge of T-Mac.

Would T-Mac love the challenge of a young Jordan hounding him up and down the court?

Would T-Mac be able to slow down Jordan ?

Hmmmm.........

By the way T-Mac does not have the same physical gifts as MJ. For one MJ was much more fierce taking the ball to the basket. I know T-Mac can not routinely if ever Dunk from the free throw line like MJ could.

Also what makes people think Jordan was weak ? Becasue he was skinny ? Remember T-Mac is a skinny guy himself. Plus I never saw T-Mac take the physical beating Jordan would take from teams in the playoffs.

Just some other observations to throw out there. I'm an obvious big time MJ fan. However don't take it the wrong way I love everything about T-Macs game. I just never once got the impression after watching a game of his that he was the Most talented ever.

Maybe I'm missing something ??


----------



## ssmokinjoe (Jul 5, 2003)

I voted NO. MJ is still the man in my book. Alot of current players impress me today, including TMac, but none of them are MJ.


----------



## desmond mason for mvp (Sep 11, 2005)

iam getting annoyed wit some of these ridiculous posts. people are saying tmac was eqaul in athletism or wat they call "talent" to jordan except he was taller. Negative,his athletism comes very close but nope it isnt jordans, money mike could hang in the air for 1 or 2 secs on a good day, some would saay fly. now that, is truly athletism, just gracefuly hanging in the air. tmac doesnt even come close to mj on hangtime. As for speed has any1 here ever seen jordan bolt the the hoop at full speed, even in his 30s cause if u had u wouldn't be saying tmac this or that. as far as strength goes tmac has nothin on mj,NOTHING! if tmac is so strong y does he spend so much time by then perimeter shooting, because he cant muscle his way in, and yes ill say even kobe is stronger than tmac. and for those people would consider instincs a talent,well mj had killer instincts, unlike tmac's desgraceful instincts. mj was just more athletic, the question is whether tmac and his height put him equal to jordan and his talent.

and yes i do think tmac is a 10 in athletism, but then again jordan would have to be an 11!


----------



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

desmond mason for mvp said:


> money mike could hang in the air for 1 or 2 secs on a good day, some would saay fly.


:laugh:


----------



## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

I'm not that young, I saw MJ play. T-Mac is simply more athletic or just as athletic with an extra 3 and half inches. And I'm no T-Mac fanboy, before any bring that ****. I'm an NBA fan. A fan of NBA history. I know the history of the game. And T-Mac has the greatest combination of SG athleticism, with PF height.


----------



## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

AirJordan23- I agree FULLY with you. MJ had a different approach to the game. It was balls to the wall, the ENTIRE time he was on the court. What Spriggan and I are saying, is that if T-Mac played the same way, he'd be a better player than MJ. However, he doesn't, and thus you have a player who has yet to get out of the 1st round.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

Mcgrady is not as atheltic as Jordan....because any advantage that McGrady has physically is negated by jordan's quickness advantage..which is quite large.

his height/length helps and hurts him. 

Outside of Lebron most long perimeter have an "ease" or smoothness to their games. That's cause their movements on the court are more calculated. When you're that long the thing you loose compared to guys who are 6'4, 6'5 & 6'6 is lateral quickness or quick feet in general. Watch Iverson or Wade or Kobe or Francis... then watch Prince or McGrady or Lewis or old tapes of Pippen...
they dont have that sudden change of direction which makes those other guys so dangerous off the dribble. They dont have those counter moves off the dribble...if the first move isn't there.. they pass it off or take the jumper..

..this is why I consider McGrady the blueprint on how score for tall and long perimeter players. his game is a quide to these long dudes

Now, grant hill was an explosive player. His first step was top notch...truthfully he was better than McGrady off the dribble


----------



## Pnack (Aug 23, 2005)

magic_bryant said:


> I'm not that young, I saw MJ play. T-Mac is simply more athletic or just as athletic with an extra 3 and half inches. And I'm no T-Mac fanboy, before any bring that ****. I'm an NBA fan. A fan of NBA history. I know the history of the game. And T-Mac has the greatest combination of SG athleticism, with PF height.


 :boohoo: :eek8: :brokenhea :dead: :boohoo:


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

magic_bryant said:


> ^^ Exactly!!
> 
> How many times does it need to be said? T-Mac's MAX potential is higher than ANY player. Jordan, widely regarded as the best PLAYER ever and one of the most phenomenal ATHLETES in basketball history, MAXIMIZED his potential to the fullest. Well, because T-Mac is pretty much on par with everything Jordan did ATHLETICALLY, not skills he LEARNED, but in terms of ATHLETICISM, T-Mac therefore, has a HIGHER potential. If he would EVER maximize his potential, he'd be the GOAT.
> 
> T-Mac is close in terms of hops, speed, LATERAL quickness (something LeBron DOESN'T have and NEVER WILL, same for Dirk, KG isn't as laterally quick as T-Mac) to MJ. But is WAY stronger than MJ ever was. Also, T-Mac has Pippen's length.


What's the bias? How is Tmac's potential or athleticism any greater than that of other great athletic players in the post Jordan era? 




> YES, KG, Kobe, MJ, Big O, Magic, are/were ALL better players than T-Mac, because they maximized their TALENT moreso than McGrady has yet to do. But they do NOT have the talent T-Mac does.


There seems to be an equation of Talent = Atheticism here. Great players like Magic or Bird were not nearly as athletic as most of the perimeter players in the game today. However, their level of talent would run the majority of players in the game today off the court. Tracy is talented, and he's crazy athletic, but maybe the reason why he hasn't 'MAXIMIZED his potential to the fullest' is because he doesn't have other attributes that made other great player the legends they are today. And maybe he never will.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

magic_bryant said:


> ^^ Exactly!!
> 
> How many times does it need to be said? T-Mac's MAX potential is higher than ANY player. Jordan, widely regarded as the best PLAYER ever and one of the most phenomenal ATHLETES in basketball history, MAXIMIZED his potential to the fullest. Well, because T-Mac is pretty much on par with everything Jordan did ATHLETICALLY, not skills he LEARNED, but in terms of ATHLETICISM, T-Mac therefore, has a HIGHER potential. If he would EVER maximize his potential, he'd be the GOAT.
> 
> ...


You have a lot of opinion on T-Mac,with now evidence to support! How did you determine these comments? I am not saying you are wrong, but tell us why or how you came to these conclusions. I would agree that T-Mac is extremely talented though, however, I put him behind LeBron from basketball standpoint!


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

What's most amazing is 26 people have voted he is the most talented player ever.

That **** is very funny to me.


----------



## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

I think the obvious problem here is many people watched a lot of Kobe, Jordan, KG, etc. but not nreayl enough of T-Mac.


It's so obvious, "T-mac can't change direction as quick as some of the other perimeter players"???????


If you watched T-Mac enough over the years you would realize he is A LOT more athletic than people here are saying.

There is an idea that Jordan is way more athletic in his prime, well I would say SLIGHTLY more, just barely.


In factit's so obvious people here that are arguing that have not seen that much of T_mac, because if they had they would realize athletically he puts players like Iverson, Wade, Kobe, KG, LeBron to shame.

T-Mac is vastly superior to Kobe or Wade in athleticism, but listen to posts here it sounds the other way around.

It's just obviously apparent T-Mac is the one major talent in the NBA that people still don't know much about. Witht hat being said T-Mac would not be Hall of Fame if he retired today, while Kobe would be.

But if you REALLY had been following T-Mac you would KNOW he is the most gifted ever and has the highest ceiling, otherwise you are a hater, obviously most people here have seen very little of what this guy can do.

And about the Wilt argument, of course Wilt was the most athletic EVER, but he was also a Goliath. T-Mac is more gifted overall because of the versatility he has in comparison is enourmous. And yes again same when compared to Jordan.

T-Mac is a lot more versatile than Pippen was.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

IV said:


> What's most amazing is 26 people have voted he is the most talented player ever.
> 
> That **** is very funny to me.


Why?


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Ming_7_6 said:


> There is an idea that Jordan is way more athletic in his prime, well I would say SLIGHTLY more, just barely.


Let me try and explain something to you. When Jordan was Tmac's age, he could jump from the free throw line and slam the ball in the basket. Tracy can not do that. THat's a hole nother relm of athleticism.




> In factit's so obvious people here that are arguing that have not seen that much of T_mac, because if they had they would realize athletically he puts players like Iverson, Wade, Kobe, KG, LeBron to shame.


He puts them all to shame?
At what point do you say, maybe I'm overrating this guy and I should rethink my opinion?



> T-Mac is vastly superior to Kobe or Wade in athleticism, but listen to posts here it sounds the other way around.


All three are upper echelon athletes, there is really no scientific way to prove one is superior to the others.



> It's just obviously apparent T-Mac is the one major talent in the NBA that people still don't know much about. Witht hat being said T-Mac would not be Hall of Fame if he retired today, while Kobe would be.


That doesn't have much to do with talent or athleticism. Kobe's accomplished alot in his career and some would say he's questionable to go to the hall of fame. Tracy's showcased alot, he just hasn't had the success or longevity in his career to be a hall of fame lock, yet.



> But if you REALLY had been following T-Mac you would KNOW he is the most gifted ever and has the highest ceiling, otherwise you are a hater, obviously most people here have seen very little of what this guy can do.


Everyone knows Tmac, we've been watching him as one of the NBA most highighted players for the past 3 or 4 years. Maybe others can see, while you can't, the talents of other players in the NBA who are just as talented.



> And about the Wilt argument, of course Wilt was the most athletic EVER, but he was also a Goliath. T-Mac is more gifted overall because of the versatility he has in comparison is enourmous. And yes again same when compared to Jordan.


:nonono:



> T-Mac is a lot more versatile than Pippen was.


wow


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Spriggan said:


> Why?


Because I don't see how anyone can say any player is as athletic a basketball player as Michael Jordan. 
Athletically and the way Jordan would dominate the game, there is no comparision.


----------



## KoBe & BeN GoRdOn! (Aug 4, 2005)

no - he is not the most talented ever.


----------



## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

Like I said, it is obvious these people do not have hardly any viewing of T-Mac at all, the second to last post by IV is proof of that.


----------



## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

BTW IV, Jordan was NOT even CLOSE to Wilt's athleticism.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

You make the point that people don't watch Tmac play, which is pure speculation. It's not that fans, mind you... most of the posters, on this topic disagree with you, we just don't watch him play. That's silly, but then you go further to say that Wilt was more athletic than Jordan. I assume this makes him second to Tracy. But you're how old, and you know Wilt's athleticism. Come on man, your talkin in circles.


----------



## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

Have you even read this thread?


You are like 10 pages behind in the discussion.

BTW, I dig your avatar yo.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Ming_7_6 said:


> Have you even read this thread?
> 
> 
> You are like 10 pages behind in the discussion.


I read your post.



> BTW, I dig your avatar yo.


Thank you.... thankyaverymuch!


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

*Post deleted, stick to the topic. Don't attack the poster.*


----------



## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

Tracy's ups are 42". That's RIGHT there with Jordan, LeBron, etc. He isn't as fast TOP end speed, but when is top end speed used other than in the 4-5 fastbreaks that occur each game? T-Mac is 3 and a halfinches taller than Jordan. LeBron James has "STIFF HIPS" he will NEVER be a laterally quick player. T-Mac is the perfect combination of size, athleticism, and strength/height. 

The only reason T-Mac seems to be less of an athlete, is because he RARELY uses his 100% effort. Therefore, no one ever sees his top end speed. Watch some of his dunks, how much higher he can actually go, as opposed to just jumping enough to dunk, like he usually does. He simply has equal athleticism to anyone ever. The difference is, he has 3 and a half inches on all others, except LeBron, who has "stiff hips" which T-Mac doesn't.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

magic_bryant said:


> Tracy's ups are 42". That's RIGHT there with Jordan, LeBron, etc. He isn't as fast TOP end speed, but when is top end speed used other than in the 4-5 fastbreaks that occur each game? T-Mac is 3 and a halfinches taller than Jordan. LeBron James has "STIFF HIPS" he will NEVER be a laterally quick player. T-Mac is the perfect combination of size, athleticism, and strength/height.
> 
> The only reason T-Mac seems to be less of an athlete, is because he RARELY uses his 100% effort. Therefore, no one ever sees his top end speed. Watch some of his dunks, how much higher he can actually go, as opposed to just jumping enough to dunk, like he usually does. He simply has equal athleticism to anyone ever. The difference is, he has 3 and a half inches on all others, except LeBron, who has "stiff hips" which T-Mac doesn't.


The certainty of religion can be a beautiful and terrible thing.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

magic_bryant said:


> Tracy's ups are 42". That's RIGHT there with Jordan, LeBron, etc. He isn't as fast TOP end speed, but when is top end speed used other than in the 4-5 fastbreaks that occur each game? T-Mac is 3 and a halfinches taller than Jordan. LeBron James has "STIFF HIPS" he will NEVER be a laterally quick player. T-Mac is the perfect combination of size, athleticism, and strength/height.
> 
> The only reason T-Mac seems to be less of an athlete, is because he RARELY uses his 100% effort. Therefore, no one ever sees his top end speed. Watch some of his dunks, how much higher he can actually go, as opposed to just jumping enough to dunk, like he usually does. He simply has equal athleticism to anyone ever. The difference is, he has 3 and a half inches on all others, except LeBron, who has "stiff hips" which T-Mac doesn't.


I dont get this arguement, he is not the fastest, not the best dunker, not the most creative dunker, not the highest jumper so what exactly makes him in your opinion the most talented ever.


----------



## Grangerx33 (Mar 9, 2004)

David Thompson....noone knows him because drugs ruined his career, but MJ said he idoled Thompson, he was prob. the most talented, they said he could take a quarter off the back of the rim. He was by far the best college player ever, but as I said because drugs killed his career before he could show too much of his skill.


----------



## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

Wilt could take dimes off the top of the backboard with BOTH hands at the same time.


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

magic_bryant said:


> LeBron James has "STIFF HIPS" he will NEVER be a laterally quick player.


Again, I plead with you to stop quit making this medically untrue claim. LeBron does not have hip issues. Saying LeBron has stiff hips is akin to saying McGrady has tuberculosis - competely false speculation.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

remy23 said:


> Again, I plead with you to stop quit making this medically untrue claim. LeBron does not have hip issues. Saying LeBron has stiff hips is akin to saying McGrady has tuberculosis - competely false speculation.


Don't blame him. Blame the spirit of TMac, who visited him in a dream and told him about Lebron's medical condition.


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> I dont get this arguement, he is not the fastest, not the best dunker, not the most creative dunker, not the highest jumper so what exactly makes him in your opinion the most talented ever.


 Those examples are primary traits you look for when looking for the most athletic player. You can be a super athlete physically and still be a horrible basketball player.


----------



## Kobe8Bryant11 (Jun 30, 2005)

WOW!!! A 15 page thread on the stupidest question ever.....wonderful!!


----------



## dunbladekilla (Sep 14, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> I don't see how anyone could think they were justified in saying definitively, as many here are, that TMac is more talented than Michael Jordan, and Wilt Chamberlain. When I talk about the delusion etc. of fans of certain players, this is the kind of thing I mean. I mean we're talking about Michael ****ing Jordan and Wilt ****ing Chamberlain. And over 20% of people believe TMac is more gifted or talented or whatever. Its absurd. Not even getting into Wilt's specific gifts (sprint champion, high jumper (I believe I read), etc.)Wilt Chamberlain is a man who averaged 50 points in a season. *AND* 25 rebounds. That is inconceivable. Oh, and then one year he decided to lead the league in assists, and he did. Yes, he was a man before his time, physically, but that is still completely and totally inconceivable. He was so dominant they changed the rules in an attempt to slow him down (the lane shape). How 'talented' or 'gifted' do you think he had to have been, in any era, to exhibit that kind of domination? And I shouldn't even have to mention Michael Jordan. Wtf? Didn't you guys see him play? Or are you that young?


agreed. i think a big part of the reason this is being argued is that the people argueing it seem to be between the ages of 13 to 21. i get the feeling they only thing they know about wilt chamberlain and michael jordan are their stats and the two games they might have seen of them on ESPN Classic. 
people are forgetting two important elements to this arguement..
1)the quality of play in the last few years has decreased dramatically. the game has evolved into a game of one on one isolation plays and people trying to get there mug on the espn plays of the day. team basketball simply does not exist as it did in the 80's or before. players are more concerned with inflating there stats then winning. the art of the mid-range jumpshot has been all but lost. defense has been degraded to the point that teams now have one or two "defensive stoppers" to do all the dirty work, while players like steve nash who play absoluletly no defense hog all the accolades.
2) what tmac lacks more then anything else is the ability to play defense consistently. he plays defense when he feels like it, and when he does decide to play it quite frankly he isn't that good. to put him anywhere near the caliber of a defensive player like pippen was in his prime is absurd and really shows lack of knowledge in history of the game.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

dunbladekilla said:


> agreed. i think a big part of the reason this is being argued is that the people argueing it seem to be between the ages of 13 to 21. i get the feeling they only thing they know about wilt chamberlain and michael jordan are their stats and the two games they might have seen of them on ESPN Classic.
> people are forgetting two important elements to this arguement..
> 1)the quality of play in the last few years has decreased dramatically. the game has evolved into a game of one on one isolation plays and people trying to get there mug on the espn plays of the day. team basketball simply does not exist as it did in the 80's or before. players are more concerned with inflating there stats then winning. the art of the mid-range jumpshot has been all but lost. defense has been degraded to the point that teams now have one or two "defensive stoppers" to do all the dirty work, while players like steve nash who play absoluletly no defense hog all the accolades.
> 2) what tmac lacks more then anything else is the ability to play defense consistently. he plays defense when he feels like it, and when he does decide to play it quite frankly he isn't that good. to put him anywhere near the caliber of a defensive player like pippen was in his prime is absurd and really shows lack of knowledge in history of the game.


 "between the ages of 13 to 21"...you're 21. You didn't see wilt either nor a young Jordan

Net Fans get dum....nevermind

1) mcgrady's mid-range is top notch

2) who in the hell put his defense on par with Pip?...

....they gotta revert to making up things to make their arguement...its sad really


----------



## dunbladekilla (Sep 14, 2005)

tone wone said:


> "between the ages of 13 to 21"...you're 21. You didn't see wilt either nor a young Jordan
> 
> Net Fans get dum....nevermind
> 
> ...


actually, my uncle is a complete jordan nut and has literally 20 tapes of regular season games as well as every playoff game jordan was in. i have watched countless hours of jordan. take a closer look at this thread, there are atleast 10 people who said tmac's defense was on par with pippens. i didn't say tmacs mid range jumper was weak, i said in general the mid range jump shot is a lost art. although i w ouldn't venture as so far as to say tmacs mid range game is "top notch".
what exactly did i "make up"? it is a FACT that the quality of play in the NBA has declined over the years. u put mj's bulls in there prime against ANY team in the nba today and they would take a dump all over them. the original dream team vs. the 2004 "dream team" and u would have allen iverson crying on sideline because his team just got blown out by 20 points.
i might be 21 but i consider myself a student of the game and enjoy watching as much vintage nba as i can. unlike most younger fans who have no frame of reference when making statements like, "Tmac is the GOAT" or "Kobe is better then MJ". MJ is top 5 all-time. Tmac won't even be top 50 when his career is over.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

dunbladekilla said:


> actually, my uncle is a complete jordan nut and has literally 20 tapes of regular season games as well as every playoff game jordan was in. i have watched countless hours of jordan. take a closer look at this thread, there are atleast 10 people who said tmac's defense was on par with pippens. i didn't say tmacs mid range jumper was weak, i said in general the mid range jump shot is a lost art. although i w ouldn't venture as so far as to say tmacs mid range game is "top notch".
> what exactly did i "make up"? it is a FACT that the quality of play in the NBA has declined over the years. u put mj's bulls in there prime against ANY team in the nba today and they would take a dump all over them. the original dream team vs. the 2004 "dream team" and u would have allen iverson crying on sideline because his team just got blown out by 20 points.
> i might be 21 but i consider myself a student of the game and enjoy watching as much vintage nba as i can. unlike most younger fans who have no frame of reference when making statements like, "Tmac is the GOAT" or "Kobe is better then MJ". MJ is top 5 all-time. Tmac won't even be top 50 when his career is over.


 so you're gonna compare the 92 Dream Team with a team that had Lamar Odom & Richard Jefferson in the starting 5...to make a point that the quality of play has dropped. You dont see the flaw in that arguement???? Nevermind that their weren't any Peja's or Dirk's or Yao's or Nash's or Ak-47 in the league back then..

2nd, How is Mcgrady's mid range NOT top notch???

Lastly, "tmac wont enen be top 50 when his career is over"....yea, if he retired today. barring injuries when his career is over he'll easily be top 5 SG of all-time. the only way he wouldn't be is if people remember him as a SF instead.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

> barring injuries when his career is over he'll easily be top 5 SG of all-time.


Even if he has no playoff success, which is arguably the highest measure of a players success in the league


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> Even if he has no playoff success, which is arguably the highest measure of a players success in the league


I agree, but if he carry's his team to a championship he will be in the top 3 depending on what Kobe does without Shaq.


----------



## dunbladekilla (Sep 14, 2005)

tone wone said:


> so you're gonna compare the 92 Dream Team with a team that had Lamar Odom & Richard Jefferson in the starting 5...to make a point that the quality of play has dropped. You dont see the flaw in that arguement???? Nevermind that their weren't any Peja's or Dirk's or Yao's or Nash's or Ak-47 in the league back then..
> 
> 2nd, How is Mcgrady's mid range NOT top notch???
> 
> Lastly, "tmac wont enen be top 50 when his career is over"....yea, if he retired today. barring injuries when his career is over he'll easily be top 5 SG of all-time. the only way he wouldn't be is if people remember him as a SF instead.


alright, u make a point. assume u took the real top players of today... shaq, kg, dirk, etc. etc.
same result, a blowout.


----------



## radronOmega (Aug 1, 2004)

Most talented as in "inborn" or "natural" talent? You coudl make a case. But considering "skill" that has been built up through hard work and widening defensive and offensive arsenal, he isn't. I can go on and on with all time players, but just in todays game Kobe, Kevin Garnett, and Lebron all out-"skill" him. Heck, Lebron out "talents" him also. lol.


----------



## king1153 (Sep 25, 2005)

hell no hes not the most talented ever, heck he may not even be top 3 today you can make a case for bryant, carter,and lebron as being more talented then him


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

John said:


> Yeah, your posts have been nothing but garbage.


How you continue to insult people in ways not pertaining to topic is beyond me. The courtesy shown to you on this site is overwhelming. That said, stick to talking about nothing cause the minute you try to talk sports with me, I'll crush you.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

IV said:


> How you continue to insult people in ways not pertaining to topic is beyond me. The courtesy shown to you on this site is overwhelming. That said, stick to talking about nothing cause the minute you try to talk sports with me, I'll crush you.


Easy easy. [strike]i think u r crap[/strike] Not necessary. but u r my good poster.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

John said:


> Easy easy. [strike]i think u r crap[/strike] Not necessary. but u r my good poster.


:naughty:

Behave!


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

He is most definitely ONE of the most talented ever. He's the complete package- PG skills, perhaps the best long-range pull-up of all time, incredible length, amazing explosiveness, killer instinct, etc. He's a freak.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

I'm proud to announce that my vote has just put 100 votes between the 2 options.


:headbang:


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> I'm proud to announce that my vote has just put 100 votes between the 2 options.
> 
> 
> :headbang:


I think you need to check your math.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> I think you need to check your math.


Oops! Sorry.



(Freaking Nets fan!)


----------



## ravor44 (Feb 26, 2005)

How did this thread reach 16 pages???OMG! :eek8:


----------

