# Did Nash Nix The Blazers Dallas Deal ???



## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

Iam reading internet reports that on a local radio show in portland that said John Nash Nixed the deal NVE & Raef Lafrenz for Damon and Sabas .


If he did nix this it miust be another deal happening


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Yeah that is true, according to the local radio show, which just said they CONFIRMED that he turned it down and talks are ongoing, with possible other players\teams getting involved. Also they mentioned that DAL counteroffered the original deal that NASH nixed by offering Finley for Wells. FWIW.


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> Yeah that is true, according to the local radio show, which just said they CONFIRMED that he turned it down and talks are ongoing, with possible other players\teams getting involved. Also they mentioned that DAL counteroffered the original deal that NASH nixed by offering Finley for Wells. FWIW.


Thats goota be a bunch a crock...This deal would be horrble for Dallas.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Thank god he put the kaibosh on that deal. 

I still hate NVE but Michael Finley would help soften the blow.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

It is being reported on the local sports radio. I am listening to the radio right now, and I agree I cannot see the logic behind it for DAL.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats goota be a bunch a crock...This deal would be horrble for Dallas.


Not any more horrible than the original deal is for Portland.

How much better do you actually believe Michael Finley is than Bonzi Wells?


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

HOLD UP!!!!

Damon, Sabas and Wells for NVE, Lafrenz and Finely...and we turned it down!!!???

There's more we aren't hearing yet.

To me this deal is essentiall Wells for Finely, NVE and Lafrenz.

Sabas I think isn't coming back anyway, and Damon is a negative factr so he actually degrades the Wells commodity in that deal.


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> 
> Not any more horrible than the original deal is for Portland.
> ...


EVER HEARD OF CHEMISTRY?


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

This was the alleged counteroffer that is still on the table.

We allegedly turned down the NVE + Stick-o-Butter LaFrentz for Sabas and Damon


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> EVER HEARD OF CHEMISTRY?


Uhhh...yeah.

What's your point?


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Bonzi, Damon and Sabonis for Nick, Finley and LaFrentz doesn't work under cap rules

trade id # 1171852


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> 
> Uhhh...yeah.
> ...


almost made me vote on your rating with that response and I NEVER rate any one. Trust me you werent getting a 4.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> Bonzi, Damon and Sabonis for Nick, Finley and LaFrentz doesn't work under cap rules
> 
> trade id # 1171852


We need someone (*cough cough SCBF*) who's less lazy than me to see how close it is.

Raef's BYC status expired today, I think (he signed his deal last July 30). I don't know if that's a factor.

Ed O.


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## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

how can so many of you be pleased that he turned down the offer of damon + sabonis for NVE and reaf?

this would be a GREAT deal.

some people need to remove the rose colored glasses, IMO.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

The Deal would have to look like this...
Portland trades: 
PG Damon Stoudamire (6.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 3.5 apg in 22.3 minutes) 
C Arvydas Sabonis (6.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.8 apg in 15.5 minutes) 
SG Bonzi Wells (15.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.3 apg in 32.0 minutes) 
PF Dale Davis (7.4 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.3 minutes) 

Portland receives: 
SG Michael Finley (19.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.3 minutes) 
PG Nick Van Exel (12.5 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 27.8 minutes) 
C Raef LaFrentz (9.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 23.4 minutes) 
Change in team outlook: +5.5 ppg, -5.9 rpg, and -1.7 apg. 

Dallas trades: 
SG Michael Finley (19.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.3 minutes) 
PG Nick Van Exel (12.5 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 27.8 minutes) 
C Raef LaFrentz (9.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 23.4 minutes) 

Dallas receives: 
PG Damon Stoudamire (6.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 3.5 apg in 59 games) 
C Arvydas Sabonis (6.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.8 apg in 78 games) 
SG Bonzi Wells (15.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.3 apg in 75 games) 
PF Dale Davis (7.4 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 1.2 apg in 78 games) 
Change in team outlook: -5.5 ppg, +5.9 rpg, and +1.7 apg. 

TRADE ACCEPTED


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

Dallas probably had intentions of persuading Sabonis to play for them (instead of retiring) next season.

Sabonis would help them in many areas while giving them some semblance of a post presence (their Achilles heel). 

From their perspective they were probably willing to take the demotion from Quick to Mouse (_though rather even from an overall production standpoint_) in an attempt to land someone that _still_ defends Shaq rather well and has the ability to spread the floor with his outside shooting..

_Sabonis is a player who would provide this while benefiting the flow and scope of their offence at the same time. _




In such a scenario he would prove to be a nice _tradable commodity_ for them next summer (as well).


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## gambitnut (Jan 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Schilly</b>!
> The Deal would have to look like this...
> Portland trades:
> PG Damon Stoudamire (6.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 3.5 apg in 22.3 minutes)
> ...


That I definitely wouldn't do.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

:nonono:

And they are saying (910 the fan) Bonzi's BYC status expires today as well.. 

but as we have discussed.. its in mid September....

it may well have been Raef's BYC was why they chose Friday Aug 1 to announce it.. (if it does go down)

I think nothing will happen until next week when we meet with Sabas


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> almost made me vote on your rating with that response and I NEVER rate any one. Trust me you werent getting a 4.


Trust me. I don't care.

Seriously...what was your point? Are you saying that Wells lacks chemistry with his teammates? That for whatever reason Michael Finley has it in spades?

Finley is kind of a ball hog. Wells often defers to others even at the expense of his own offense.
Finley wants to be a star. Wells wants to be a great team player.
Finley needs to have plays run for him. Wells is a great 'garbage' player.
I have no idea what Finley is like in the lockerroom. Wells is very well liked by his teammates.

Wells shoots a higher percentage. He rebounds better. Wells passes better. Wells plays better defense. Wells is younger. Basically the only advantage Finley has is that he's a 'go to' type of guy. 

So what's the 'chemistry' problem? Give me details as to why this is such a horrible deal for Dallas.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> 
> I think nothing will happen until next week when we meet with Sabas


So will the conversation go like this?

"Hey Sabas, how's about this... we trade you, you get cut, and then we re-sign you using our MLE to a 3 year deal. We'll guarantee the first year at like $4.9m, but the final two years will have to be non-guaranteed. The team gets better and you still make a good chunk of change."

You think that he'd go for that? Do you think the Blazers would?

Ed O.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> So will the conversation go like this?
> ...


and why not? There's nothing wrong with that. We did it with Stacey Augmon, and the Lakers did it with Brian Shaw (without trading him tho)..

I doubt that Sabonis is going to move to Dallas to play 1 season (let's be honest, he probably has 1 season left) to play for a fast fast team...Why not do this, make money that chances are he wasn't going to make (if he didn't agree to this or something) anyway?


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> 
> Trust me. I don't care.
> ...



What basketball do you watch. Finley has let Nash NVE and Dirk take over he is happy being 4th or 1st. Do you rememberthe allstar game. Dirk and Nash were wearing Finley on thier shoes and head bands...you dont get that from being nogood and not liked. Cuban bought a sign outside atl saying you left off our 1st all star.Why? because Finley is a 2 time allstar unlike Wells.


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## Public Defender (May 5, 2003)

I have to say, I was drooling over the offer of Nick Van Exel, Michael Finley and Raef LaFrentz for Bonzi, Damon, and Sabas. But once you throw Dale Davis in there, my enthusiasm quickly withers. If we lost both Davis and Sabas, and got only La Frentz in return, we'd immediately lose our inside defense. Sabas isn't great, but he does clog things, and Davis is one of the best defenders at his size in the league (extremely underrated). I agree with Charles Barkley (just this once!) that Raef LaFrentz may put up good shot-blocking numbers from time to time, but he's not a "shot-blocker" and a pretty mediocre defender. How many times was he in foul trouble against the Blazers?

Also, I just have the feeling that if the Blazers expect too much of out of Raef, we'd be disappointed... I don't like what might be implosive chemistry between Wallace and LaFrentz. 

How about the Blazers' counteroffer includes Derek Anderson instead of Dale? 

Portland would have NVE, Finley, Wallace, Randolph and Davis as our starting five, with J-Mac, Woods, Patterson, LaFrentz and Boumtje-Boumtje off the bench. Very good starting five, and not a bad bench... I'm not sold on it, but it's a thought.


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> I doubt that Sabonis is going to move to Dallas to play 1 season (let's be honest, he probably has 1 season left) to play for a fast fast team...Why not do this, make money that chances are he wasn't going to make (if he didn't agree to this or something) anyway?


I doubt that he would want to play for Dallas _next season_ (as well) but if they persuaded him to stay on their roster (while in Europe) then bring him over before the playoffs (maybe he would pursue such an opportunity at [1.] winning, and [2.] making easy money)

I like the Idea of trading Sabonis for cap relief purposes then resigning him with the full MLE.

_That’s almost like cheating._
(I guess alls fair in love , war... and _basketball economics_).


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Here is another version that would work

Dallas trades: 
PG Nick Van Exel (12.5 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 27.8 minutes) 
C Raef LaFrentz (9.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 23.4 minutes) 
SG Michael Finley (19.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.3 minutes) 

Dallas receives: 
SF Ruben Patterson (8.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 1.3 apg in 21.2 minutes) 
SG Bonzi Wells (15.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.3 apg in 32.0 minutes) 
C Arvydas Sabonis (6.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.8 apg in 15.5 minutes) 
PG Damon Stoudamire (6.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 3.5 apg in 22.3 minutes) 
Change in team outlook: -4.6 ppg, +2.1 rpg, and +1.8 apg. 

Portland trades: 
SF Ruben Patterson (8.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 1.3 apg in 21.2 minutes) 
SG Bonzi Wells (15.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.3 apg in 32.0 minutes) 
C Arvydas Sabonis (6.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.8 apg in 15.5 minutes) 
PG Damon Stoudamire (6.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 3.5 apg in 22.3 minutes) 

Portland receives: 
PG Nick Van Exel (12.5 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 73 games) 
C Raef LaFrentz (9.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 69 games) 
SG Michael Finley (19.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.0 apg in 69 games) 
Change in team outlook: +4.6 ppg, -2.1 rpg, and -1.8 apg. 

TRADE ACCEPTED


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

SG Michael Finley (19.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.3 minutes) 
SG Bonzi Wells (15.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.3 apg in 32.0 minutes)


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## Public Defender (May 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Schilly</b>!
> Here is another version that would work
> 
> Dallas trades:
> ...


Where do I sign? That'd give the Blazers a tight rotation, too - 

PG: Nick Van Exel/ J-Mac
SG: Finley/ Derek Anderson
SF: Wallace/ Woods
PF: Randolph/ LaFrentz
C: Davis/ Boumtje-Boumtje

I like it. Gives the Blazers two clutch, go-to type players in Van Exel and Finley. We can still put Wallace and Randolph on the floor at the same time, and we keep Dale Davis for the lunchpail guy in the middle. 

It has good punch off the bench with Anderson (who'd eat second-string SGs for lunch), Woods (who should definitely get some good time off the bench but not start), LaFrentz (defensive shortcomings will be masked by playing reserves), J-Mac (who played great off the bench for Portland last season), and Boumtje-Boumtje (it's put-up or shut-up time for the former Hoya...). Without Patterson, we lose some defense off the bench, but I think the Blazers had a bigger problem with scoring last season, and this trade definitely helps that.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

Finley is better than Wells

Not by a mile, but his D is better, and he is a much better attitude.


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## LLP4113 (Jul 30, 2003)

People........people.........people.... let me break it down.

Cuban.is.not.going.to.trade.the.big.three.

Sorry, I don't mean to dissapoint you blazer fans.......

Finley is better and too close to Dallas for a trade. NVE, I hope doesn't get traded. If he does then


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> SG Michael Finley (19.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.3 minutes)
> SG Bonzi Wells (15.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.3 apg in 32.0 minutes)


Wow. Wells IS better statistically than Finley... Wells is a bit behind him in terms of points per 48, but considering the up-tempo game Dallas plays (meaning points, assists and rebounds are easier to get), Wells advantages are even more impressive. Thanks for backing that up.

Ed O.


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## gambitnut (Jan 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Public Defender</b>!
> 
> 
> Where do I sign? That'd give the Blazers a tight rotation, too -
> ...


i agree with you, the trade with Davis leaves us too thin at C but I really like it if we replace him with Patterson! The only things I would worry about is weather Wallace can handle a full season at SF and weather Boumtje-Boumtje will put up or shut up.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

I think Sheed can handle a full season at SF. That is definatley where he will play this year. 

I think if Sheed moves to SF, and Wells moves back to SG, Wells will have a break out year. 

I could see 35 minutes, 20 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists from Wells if he moves back to SG

But, if we move Derek Anderson to PG, i think his production(Besides assists) will drop. 


Also, sheed will shoot more 3's at the 3, but i dont care if he shoots 3 pointers, as long as he is not shooting them as a PF.


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## gambitnut (Jan 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ThatBlazerGuy</b>!
> I think Sheed can handle a full season at SF. That is definatley where he will play this year.
> 
> I think if Sheed moves to SF, and Wells moves back to SG, Wells will have a break out year.
> ...


What do you see Finley getting for us if he is our SG?


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

I could see him getting 22 points at least

He would be our #1 man on offense. On the Mavs, he is #3 and still manages 19 points a game. 

Yes, he is 3 years older than Wells, but at 30, i could see him playing another 5 years

He not very effiecint point wise, but he doesnt foul or turn the ball over


But, his age would probably scare me away. 

He rely's on his ability to attack the hoop and jump high, and players that rely on that generaly can not play as long as a guy like Wells(Who is primarly a post player)


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

Fellas! What is so hard to understand here? The Blazers ARE DUMPING PAYROLL! Did you not read the article about how Paul Allen's net worth has been cut in half over the past 2-3 years? Are you completely unaware of the fact that he dumped a bunch of Blazers employees? That he let Pippen and Daniels walk? Why do you THINK the Blazers don't want to trade Arvydas Sabonis' contract (the dude is retiring, so his contract disappears) and Damon Stoudamire (two years remaining) for Van Exel (three years remaining) and LaFrentz (what an overpaid enigma, and quite a few years remaining, at least four or five)?

What is so hard to understand here? Seriously? The Blazers do not want to trade Sabonis BECAUSE THEY ARE DUMPING PAYROLL. By letting him retire, $15ish mil disappears from the 2003-04 payroll ($7.5ish mil in salary, another $7.5 mil in the dollar-for-dollar luxury tax). Like it or not, that $15 mil is way more valuable to the cost-cutting Blazers right now than the overpaid, enigmatic, and very-bad-for-team-chemistry LaFrentz and Van Exel.

Furthermore, what happens if Portland makes this deal? Are they really any better than sixth or seventh in the West? Nope! So why make the deal? Even if the Blazers WEREN'T in payroll-dumping mode, this is a questionable trade. I mean, jesus, fans in Portland complain about too many lousy attitudes on the team, and the way to resolve this problem is by trading for NICK VAN EXEL and RAEF LAFRENTZ? Are you kidding me?

You guys in here, you really are living in a fantasy world, I CANNOT BELIEVE how few of you realize that the Blazers are dumping payroll, CANNOT BELIEVE IT!

Also, Bonzi Wells cannot hold Michael Finley's jock, not now, not ever. The Mavs ARE NOT trying to trade Michael Finley.

Grand total of teams in the NBA who would take Bonzi Wells over Michael Finley: ZERO.

The Blazers' offseason is going exactly the way I thought it would. They've let Pippen and Daniels walk, they're turning down very good trade offers for Sabonis' contract, and they're actively shopping the lousy longterm contracts of Ruben Patterson and Derek Anderson. And, of course, they are signing NO free agents.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> What basketball do you watch. Finley has let Nash NVE and Dirk take over he is happy being 4th or 1st. Do you rememberthe allstar game. Dirk and Nash were wearing Finley on thier shoes and head bands...you dont get that from being nogood and not liked. Cuban bought a sign outside atl saying you left off our 1st all star.Why? because Finley is a 2 time allstar unlike Wells.


I'm going to use small words just for you buddy. 

Now I get it. You could have just said: "Finley is popular in the locker room and Dallas wouldn't trade him." Instead you beat around the bush with the cryptic question "Ever heard of Chemistry?" which could have meant any number of things. Of course, I went to college. I've heard of chemistry. I took a class in it. It's about chemicals and stuff, right?

Did I ever question whether people liked Finley or not? Nope. I simply stated a fact: He's not much better than Wells, if at all. Wells is a pretty damn good player. How many times have you watched Bonzi play? He busted out for 45 against Dallas in the playoffs. Did you forget that? Did you forget that per 48 minutes, Wells is better than Finley in nearly every category except scoring? Did you forget that there basically isn't a 2 guard in the league that can stop him in the post? Did you forget that too?

As for Finley being an all star...Kevin Duckworth was a two time all star. Being an all star doesn't mean ****.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!
> You guys in here, you really are living in a fantasy world, I CANNOT BELIEVE how few of you realize that the Blazers are dumping payroll, CANNOT BELIEVE IT!
> 
> Also, Bonzi Wells cannot hold Michael Finley's jock, not now, not ever. The Mavs ARE NOT trying to trade Michael Finley.
> ...


First of all, when Patterson got the job as president, he stated that the Blazers would be cutting about 20-30 million from the payroll this year. They are practically there at this point. They don't want to get under the cap now, next year or ever probably. 10-20 million is still pocket change to Paul Allen. If a deal presents itself and the Blazers feel it's good, they will make it.

Second, you say that finley is a better player than Wells? Maybe. Is there no team in the league that would take Bonzi over Finley? Simply not true. It just depends on what the team needs.

If you're the LA Lakers, I'd argue that you'd want Wells over Finley. Wells is much more of a team player. He doesn't need the ball at all times. He plays good defense. Good rebounder. Does lots of the little things. Finley? On a team that already has Shaq, Kobe, Malone and GP? How many balls would that team need?

Bonzi is an underrated player. If he puked up 20 shots per night, he could score as much as anybody in the league.


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> We need someone (*cough cough SCBF*) who's less lazy than me to see how close it is.
> 
> Raef's BYC status expired today, I think (he signed his deal last July 30). I don't know if that's a factor.


You Rang?????

Well, Wells+Sabonis+Stoudamire for NVE+Finley+LaFrentz does not work because Portland doesn't clear enough room. They need to add an additional $5 million or more. And, as *Schilly* points out, Patterson's contract completes the financial requirements quite nicely. But I would be very surprised to see Dallas make that trade.

Davis also could be added to make the deal work, but I would be very surprised to see Portland make that offer.


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> 
> : He's not much better than Wells, if at all. Wells is a pretty damn good player. How many times have you watched Bonzi play? He busted out for 45 against Dallas in the playoffs. Did you forget that? Did you forget that per 48 minutes, Wells is better than Finley in nearly every category except scoring? Did you forget that there basically isn't a 2 guard in the league that can stop him in the post? Did you forget that too?
> ...


Notice none of your Blazer brthren are backing your arguement here...


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

*Its just more evidence to show this deal was never real*

Finley is superior to Bonzi. Scoring, shooting, chemistry, only in Defense are they about the same. But I don't recall Bonzi ever averaging 20 pts a game for a season, and Finley has exceeded that average 5 times in his career, and averaged 19 a game twice. Bonzi hasn't came close to that. All that while shooting a good percentage. I don't see Dallas doing that trade, and it is all the reason to me to show, that this trade was never on the table to begin with. I cannot imagine any trade we would not do in order to get a single serviceable player which involved Damon and an expiring contract. This makes no sense, this seems to be all made up to me.


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## Crazy Fan From Idaho (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!
> 
> What is so hard to understand here? Seriously? The Blazers do not want to trade Sabonis BECAUSE THEY ARE DUMPING PAYROLL. By letting him retire, $15ish mil disappears from the 2003-04 payroll ($7.5ish mil in salary, another $7.5 mil in the dollar-for-dollar luxury tax).


Roby, you might be exactly right about why they turned down this trade offer. But you might be exactly wrong also. You sound so very confident about something that you are really only guessing about just like the rest of us.

As far as I know, none of us on this board is privy to any inside info. We can guess, and speculate, and read and analyze all the signs until we are blue in the face, but until something goes down none of us really knows what is going to happen.

Of course they are dumping payroll. The Blazer management has been saying that all along. But that doesn't mean each and every deal has that specific goal in mind only. Another stated goal was to give the city of Portland a team they could be proud of. How do we know that this deal wasn't rejected because they want Sabonis to play for the team one more year if he is willing????


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> Notice none of your Blazer brthren are backing your arguement here...


Again, I simply don't care.

You haven't come up with an argument that has made any sense to me yet.

You bust out one line posts and expect people to bow down to your 'superior' 'knowledge' 

Why is Finley better than Wells? Tell me. Please.


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## Peaceman (Jan 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> 
> Again, I simply don't care.
> ...


I think Finley is a little better for several reasons. I think he is more consistant on defense and scoring than Bonzi. Chemistry wise Finley is definately a better lockroom influence. I think the advantages you get in Finley are small and Bonzi is younger and does have the potential to get better. While I'm not a huge Bonzi supporter, I can't say that Finley is some huge upgrade, just a bit better now IMO. 

As for the trade, I like having Atlanta involved in it more. I would rather sign Jason Terry instead of NVE, and hopefully SAR.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

*Re: Its just more evidence to show this deal was never real*



> Originally posted by <b>hasoos</b>!
> Finley is superior to Bonzi. Scoring, shooting, chemistry, only in Defense are they about the same. But I don't recall Bonzi ever averaging 20 pts a game for a season, and Finley has exceeded that average 5 times in his career, and averaged 19 a game twice. Bonzi hasn't came close to that. All that while shooting a good percentage. I don't see Dallas doing that trade, and it is all the reason to me to show, that this trade was never on the table to begin with. I cannot imagine any trade we would not do in order to get a single serviceable player which involved Damon and an expiring contract. This makes no sense, this seems to be all made up to me.


Is Finley Superior?

Superior scoring? Not so fast. You cite all the 20+ ppg years. You neglect to mention that in his best season (22.6 ppg) Finley led the league with 42.2 mpg. He scored 25.7 points/48 minutes. Wells ONLY year starting at his natural position(17 ppg) Wells scored 25.7 points/48 minutes. Advantage: Even!

Superior shooting? Yeah right. Wells shoots a career 48% to Finley's 45%. Advantage Wells!

Chemistry? That's a buzz word. Prove it. Can't? Here's my evidence. Wells is said to be a very popular guy in the locker room. Chemistry happens when you win ballgames. Is Barry Bonds popular in the Giants locker room? Nope. Was Bob Euker popular? You better believe it. Who would you rather have on your baseball team? For the sake of argument...advantage Finley.

Defense? I give the advantage to Wells because of his strength. He also has averaged more than a half a steal more per 48 minutes and has a slight advantage in blocked shots. Wells is a far superior rebounder. Around 3 rebounds/48 minutes better than Finley. Advantage Wells.

Wells 2, Finley 1, Even 1.

Again, how is Finley better?


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

Ill let the people speak http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=46071&forumid=2


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> 
> Again, I simply don't care.
> ...


Sorry Fork but, while I'd have said it differently, I agree with Dragn. In looking over the two on ESPN and in thinking about what I've seen from the two in the last few years, the advantages that I'd give to Finley are: generally better shooter, particularly from deep and at the line; fewer turn overs; not a PR headache. Assists and rebounds seem to be about a wash. Bonzi is better on the block and has a slightly higher overall shooting % and is younger. I don't feel qualified to talk about Bonzi's place in the Blazer chemistry, much less Finley's with the Mavs but, I've not seen Finley drift in and out the same way Bonzi does, (though admittedly I've seen more Blazer games than Mav games). Bonzi is probably the better defender....when he bothers to care. Also, Finley is a more legit 3 and, with the team as it is, Bonzi's still going to need to play the 3 some even if he starts at the 2. Also, I'd say the Blazers are more in need of the sort of outside shooting that Finley provides than the post scoring that Wells provides, given that Z-bo can score in bunches down low but outside shooting is so poor across the whole team. So as I said, I've gotta give the nod to Finley, though not by a huge margin.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

*Ok I will reiterate:*

1) Finley has averaged over 20 points per game in 5 of his professional seasons, and over 19 points per game twice. Bonzi has never even averaged 19 points a game once, the best he has achieved has been 17 points. Big advantage finley

2) Finley averages 5.3 rebounds per game as opposed to Bonzi's 4 per game. Big advantage Finley.

3) Finley averages 4 assist per game over his career as opposed to Bonzi's 2.3 These two are not even close in this category. Almost 2 to 1 margin. 

4) Finley averages 2.1 TO/game as opposed to Bonzi's 2.27 (and rising as his PT has went up). Fairly close here. Still small advantage Finely.

5) Defense, they seem to be equal to me, which is both are below average defenders, both play the passing lanes well, which brings me to steals. Bonzi has an advantage here, 1.35 to 1.1 per game for Finley.

Shooting percentage: Both shoot a high percentage, Bonzi has been going down the last few years though. Bonzi has a slight advantage through career numbers. Finley has a good advantage in 3 point percentage, and shoots better at the line. 

So why wouldn't Finely be better then Bonzi? He scores more, rebounds better, is a better passer, turns the ball over less, and is 2" taller then Bonzi, and he is a better fast break finisher. I cannot see how you can argue that Bonzi is better or equal to Finley, without shouting out to the world "I am a Blazer Homer, here me roar!".


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

*Re: Ok I will reiterate:*



> Originally posted by <b>hasoos</b>!
> 1) Finley has averaged over 20 points per game in 5 of his professional seasons, and over 19 points per game twice. Bonzi has never even averaged 19 points a game once, the best he has achieved has been 17 points. Big advantage finley
> 
> 2) Finley averages 5.3 rebounds per game as opposed to Bonzi's 4 per game. Big advantage Finley.
> ...


I'll make this as simple as I can for you:

Wells averages 26 minutes per game for his career.

Finley averages 40. 

Do the math. 

If Wells got equal minutes, he'd get equal numbers.


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

I think Finley was the better player, but does anyone care that Finley is on his way down and Wells has not yet hit his prime? If I had both of them at 25 I would take Finley. But given their ages and injuries, I'll stick with Wells.


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Ok I will reiterate:*



> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll make this as simple as I can for you:
> ...


Must be a reason why Wells doesnt get those minutes.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: Re: Ok I will reiterate:*



> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> I'll make this as simple as I can for you:
> 
> ...


Add in the fact that, especially in the last few years, that the Mavs have played an up-tempo game (which means more shots for the team, so more points, assists and rebounds) and the edges that Finley has are even less significant.

Even though Finley played 246 more minutes this year than Bonzi, he earned a lower percentage of his team's rebounds (15.8% to 16.57) and assists (11.1% to 13.23) than Wells did for the Blazers. He did get a higher percentage of the team's points (15.8% to 14.6), but he required a higher percentage of his team's shots (17.1% to 14.6) to do so.

Finley's a good player, but he's not an improvement over Wells, especially after taking into account age and salary situations.

Ed O.


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Reep</b>!
> I think Finley was the better player, but does anyone care that Finley is on his way down and Wells has not yet hit his prime? If I had both of them at 25 I would take Finley. But given their ages and injuries, I'll stick with Wells.



What injuries?


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Ok I will reiterate:*



> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> Must be a reason why Wells doesnt get those minutes.


Derek Anderson and Ruben Patterson.

Who's going to take minutes from Michael Finley? Raja Bell, Adrian Griffin and Walt Williams? :laugh: 

Ed O.


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Ok I will reiterate:*



> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> Derek Anderson and Ruben Patterson.
> ...


Raja was the Man!!!!!


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Re: Ok I will reiterate:*



> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll make this as simple as I can for you:
> ...


Maybe if Bonzi was good enough to earn 40 minutes a game, he would get 40 minutes a game. He doesn't.


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

Just to throw my two cents in on the whole Wells/Finley debate.

I am scared away from Finley by his age, but I would easily take Finley over Wells right now. There has been talk of Bonzi's likability in the locker room, but that doesn't mean anything. Rider was likeable as well...would you want him around your younger players? I think Wells is a cancer, and I want him off our team. I think he's lazy, and only tries when he feels like it. If you want another comparison, how many times has Finley been kicked out of practice?

On the court, Finley is a far better outside shooter, and he has the ability to take over a game at will. He's done it before. Bonzi also has the ability to take over a game, but I don't think at will. I'm tired of waiting for Bonzi to mature. It's time to get rid of him. I'm worried his lazy attitude will spread to some of our younger players (Woods, Randolph)


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NateBishop3</b>!
> On the court, Finley is a far better outside shooter, and *he has the ability to take over a game at will.* He's done it before. Bonzi also has the ability to take over a game, but I don't think at will. I'm tired of waiting for Bonzi to mature. It's time to get rid of him. I'm worried his lazy attitude will spread to some of our younger players (Woods, Randolph)


If he could do that why not average 30, 40 or maybe a nice round number like 50 (_at will, if the game comes so easy_).

I am not buying the _at will_ thing.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: Its just more evidence to show this deal was never real*



> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> Superior shooting? Yeah right. Wells shoots a career 48% to Finley's 45%. Advantage Wells!


Hey using that logic Shaq is a better shooter than both of them!


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Ok I will reiterate:*



> Originally posted by <b>hasoos</b>!
> 
> Maybe if Bonzi was good enough to earn 40 minutes a game, he would get 40 minutes a game. He doesn't.


Maybe if Bonzi played on a team that was as shallow at his position as the Mavericks and the Suns, he would play 40 minutes a game. He doesn't.

Ed O.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Its just more evidence to show this deal was never real*



> Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey using that logic Shaq is a better shooter than both of them!


well, you are correct. Accept for that Bonzi and Finley play the same position, and comparing a centres shooting % to 2 off guards doesn't fly...:grinning:


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Comparing anyone's % to anyone elses and making the conclusions on who the better shooter is doesn't fly. Is Shaq a better shooter than Vlade?


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!
> Comparing anyone's % to anyone elses and making the conclusions on who the better shooter is doesn't fly. Is Shaq a better shooter than Vlade?


He's more efficient, meaning every time he shoots he scores more points. So in that way, yes, he's a better shooter.

In terms of a game of horse or a 3 point shootout, Vlade's almost certainly better than Shaq. But that's not that important IMO.

I think that Finley and DA is a better comparison in terms of shooting. They had similar years offensively in terms of efficiency and overall games (Finley played 5 mpg more and, obviously, shot a LOT more). Bonzi's game isn't shooting from the perimeter, but he's a more efficient overall offensive player.

Ed O.


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## Goldmember (May 24, 2003)

One of our biggest needs is outside shooting. Finley fits the bill better than Bonzi IMO. Bonzi can light it up from the outside once every 4 or 5 games, but the rest of the time he forces a lot of ugly bricks. Fin is more consistent. On defense, it's a push. Bonzi some boneheaded plays and gets a lot of dumb fouls. He's also a hothead and a bad influence on the younger guys. Finley is more professional. 

A lot of Bonzi's scoring requires posting him up and clearouts. If you replace him with Finley it would allow Sheed to work inside more along with Zach. Having a couple three point bombers like Finley and NVE out there would really open up our offense. Where do I sign?


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

If the Mavs are considering this trade, Cuban is serioulsy gripping.

The fact that the Lakers,Spurs,Kings and Twolves have all improved has Cuban itching to make a move for the sake of making a move. That's exactly what this trade is about, IMO.

Finley>Bonzi
NVE>Damon
Lafrentz>Sabonis because atleast he's guranteed to be playing next year.

If the Mavs do this trade. They are officially the 5th best if not 6th best in the West now. It will also be apparent Cuban is smoking too many of those little cigarettes if he signs off on this trade. :krazy:

Just my opinion.


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Its just more evidence to show this deal was never real*



> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> well, you are correct. Accept for that Bonzi and Finley play the same position, and comparing a centres shooting % to 2 off guards doesn't fly...:grinning:


But if Wells scores mostly in the post and Finley is a perimeter shooter and thats all that Wells leads bi in %. then Id have to say that Fin is the better shooter.


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> Ill let the people speak http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=46071&forumid=2


What is shocking here is that nearly 20% of people around here voted for Bonzi. In other words, nearly 20% of people around here have zero clue what they are talking about, apparently. Finley is an awfully good player who was Dallas' primary scorer prior to Dirk Nowitzki's emergence. As several people have pointed out, if Bonzi Wells was a 25 ppg guy with 40 mpg, he'd be a 25 ppg guy with 40 mpg. The fact that he is neither a 25 ppg guy nor a 40 mpg guy--plus the fact that he is a total enigma who had an awfully mediocre 2002-03 campaign--PLUS the fact that guys DO NOT GET BETTER past the age of 27-28, they either stay the same or they regress--says a lot.

I cannot believe we are having this discussion. The only way Big D considers trading Finley to Portland is if Rasheed is involved. And Finley is such a great player for this team--keep in mind that they were the second-best team in the league last year and were a healthy Dirk away from possibly beating San Antonio in the playoffs (we'll never know)--that I doubt Big D would trade, say, Finley and filler for Rasheed, seriously!

Give me a break!


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!
> 
> What is shocking here is that nearly 20% of people around here voted for Bonzi. In other words, nearly 20% of people around here have zero clue what they are talking about, apparently.
> 
> ...


Who's clueless? Rasheed Wallace is 2x the player Michael Finley is. A trade of Sheed for Finley would be absurd. You probably shouldn't call people out for being clueless and then make a statement that far off. 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## Draco (Jun 28, 2003)

Finley has a huge contract, while bonzi has a small one, so even though I'd agree finley is the better player (and older) I don't think a swap of finley and bonzi is totally outragous, although I don't really see what either team would gain. With dallas's toughness problem I bet they would trade any single player on their team except nowitzki for wallace. There are plenty of good SG's like wells and finley out there but quality big men are hard to fine, so it's very silly to say dallas wouldn't be interested in a finley/wallace trade.

Are you saying a lineup of:

Nash
Van Exel
Finley
Dirk
Raef/Bradley

is better than

Nash
Van Exel
Dirk
Sheed
Raef/Bradley

Considering the only attribute holding back dallas is inside toughness and defense, I don't see how losing finley but gaining a great defender in wallace would be a bad move. All of Finley's positive attributes are not in areas that are that crucial to the success of the mavs in my opinon.


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## marshall (Jun 18, 2003)

Hes saying that Sheed for Finley is absurd for Portland to do.....Having seen 90% of the Mavs games and 50% of the Blazers I would definately go with Bonzi. Who is saying that the D is a wash. That is a huge joke. Bonzi is 10 times better at perimeter D and great on the inside. You have no idea how any complaints come from Dallas fans about Finleys bad D, how he just gets ran around and dunked on (Same with Dirk). Finley sometimes takes irrational 3's and always settles for the jumper because he cant put the ball on the floor, Finley cannot dribble.......Bottom line. Bonzi is a slasher, great on D, good post scorer, and strong rebounder........I bet most INFORMED Dallas B-ball fans would do Finley for Bonzi straight up. He would help them sooo much.


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