# PG Class of 2004 >>> PG Class of 2005



## djtoneblaze (Nov 22, 2004)

There has been a tremendous amount of hype over how good the PG class of this year (2005) allegedly is, but I think that the PG class of 2004 will ultimately (and in the near future, as in next season) be easily the better class of points.

I'd take Shaun Livingston/Sebastian Telfair/Devin Harris over Raymond Felton/Chris Paul/Deron Williams any day; hell, off the strength of either Telfair or Livingston alone. I like Jameer Nelson, Beno Udrihm and Delonte West over Jarrett Jack, Nate Robinson, and Salim Stoudamire (even though I see him as the sleeper pick of this year's draft), too.

Thoughts? Opinions? Insults?


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## djtoneblaze (Nov 22, 2004)

And I even forgot to mention Duhon.


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## Pure Scorer (Jul 20, 2002)

agreed.

telfair and livingston are/will be the best of the bunch.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

I think the rankings will eventually be like this

Shaun Livingston, Chris Paul, Sebastien Telfair, Chris Paul, Ray Felton, Devin Harris

I love DHar, I'm at UW right now, but I think he's the worst of the bunch. But I think the only bonified 10 year all-star, guaranteed super star player is Livingston, but you never would have known it after Bilas and Vitale ripped him to shreads in 2004 because he didn't go to Duke.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Devin is better than Raymond Felton and Sebastian Telfair.....


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## pr0wler (Jun 8, 2003)

Nimreitz said:


> I think the rankings will eventually be like this
> 
> Shaun Livingston, Chris Paul, Sebastien Telfair, Chris Paul, Ray Felton, Devin Harris


Chris Paul is so good he is ranked #2 AND #4...?


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

AJ Prus said:


> Devin is better than Raymond Felton and Sebastian Telfair.....


 at what???


...but seriously, Livingston by himself makes last years class better


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## BBALLSCIENCES (Oct 16, 2004)

Sebastian is easily better than all those guys. Too quick for any of them to guard and too quick for any of them to blow by. Better passer too.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

tone wone said:


> at what???


The Point Guard position...Devin is going to carve out a better career than both of those players.....


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## girlygirl (Dec 6, 2003)

Although most of the guys I'm about to list aren't pure PG, I would argue that they are all very good playmakers and would trump EITHER the 2004 or 2005 class as a whole (James and Wade are obviously head and shoulders above everyone else from any of the past 3 draft classes. But I'd also take Hinrich over anyone else, until someone else steps up and shows he can be as productive as KH has been in his 1st 2 seasons (13.9 PPG, 6.6 APG so far in career; 21.2 PPG, 5.8 APG in playoffs)

2003 DRAFT CLASS

LeBron James - already a superstar
Dwyane Wade - already a superstar
Kirk Hinrich - probable future All-Star
T.J. Ford - solid starter when healthy, fastest of this group and probably faster than any of the '04 or '05 guys
Luke Ridnour - solid starter
Mo Williams - did nice job filling in for Ford last season
Marcus Banks - good back-up; with Hinrich and Wade, the best defender in this group
Steve Blake - solid back-up


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

BBALLSCIENCES said:


> Sebastian is easily better than all those guys. Too quick for any of them to guard and too quick for any of them to blow by. Better passer too.


Too quick for any of them to blow by?

NO WAY that at this point, Sebastion Telfair could contain the likes the Raymond Felton or Chris Paul. If you perhaps missed watching Paul or Felton in college, you'd have seen how they were... unstoppable in terms of using their pure quickness and explosiveness to beat defenders off the dribble, and I don't remember anyone raving about Telfair's defense.

Call me a homer if you want, but theres also no way that Devin Harris is better than Felton or Paul.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

No comparison yet. The class of 2005 hasn't even played a single game.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

pr0wler said:


> Chris Paul is so good he is ranked #2 AND #4...?


Well, he is certainly good, but no that was definitely my mistake. I meant for Paul to be #2 and Deron Williams to be #4.

I wouldn't rather have Hinrich than Livingston, no way no how. I have a respect for Hinrich (don't particularly like him, but I respect him), but Livingston is like 5 years younger and probably just as good right now.

AJ man, I love Devin, but I think Devin might not be as good as the others. I only have the college bias, not the high school bias. I'm willing to admit that he certainly might be better than Felton, but he is just never going to be the man. His career will more likely resemble a Greg Anthony, while Telfair and Livingston and Paul can be JKidd or Payton level.


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## crowTrobot (Jun 24, 2005)

Nimreitz said:


> Telfair and Livingston and Paul can be JKidd or Payton level.


sounds like they're in the hall of fame already :banana: 

can't speak for livingston, but telfair has a LONG way to go with his shot, and he will never be the defender kidd and payton are/were. i seriously doubt paul will be either.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> AJ man, I love Devin, but I think Devin might not be as good as the others. I only have the college bias, not the high school bias. I'm willing to admit that he certainly might be better than Felton, but he is just never going to be the man. His career will more likely resemble a Greg Anthony, while Telfair and Livingston and Paul can be JKidd or Payton level.


Could very well happen...but I want to see him get good, consistent minutes before we judge him.....put him in Telfair's situation last year in Portland, and I think he puts up WAY better numbers....he may be in over his head in Dallas though......


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

RSP83 said:


> No comparison yet. The class of 2005 hasn't even played a single game.


A novel concept! Why don't people wait until the 2005 PG's actually play a game to judge them properly. BUT...

I think when things are said and done, it'll be something like this between '04 and '05:

1. Shaun Livingston
2. Chris Paul
3. Deron Williams
4. Sebastian Telfair
5. Ray Felton
6. Devin Harris
7. Chris Duhon
8. Jameer Nelson
9. Nate Robinson
10. Jarrett Jack

Cumulatively speaking, it's pretty much a push IMO. But let's wait and see, shall we?


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## BBALLSCIENCES (Oct 16, 2004)

Drewbs said:


> Too quick for any of them to blow by?
> 
> NO WAY that at this point, Sebastion Telfair could contain the likes the Raymond Felton or Chris Paul. If you perhaps missed watching Paul or Felton in college, you'd have seen how they were... unstoppable in terms of using their pure quickness and explosiveness to beat defenders off the dribble, and I don't remember anyone raving about Telfair's defense.
> 
> Call me a homer if you want, but theres also no way that Devin Harris is better than Felton or Paul.


I'm glad you feel this way because they will face Devin Harris next week in summerleage. Sebastian Telfair already bust Felton's *** as a 5'8" freshman at adidas camp then went on to beat Felton's squad on his home court. That's food for thought. He'll do the same to Chris Paul while locking them up in the process. Sebastian is faster than the both of them, easily.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Just because Telfair beat him in high school doesn't mean much. Felton has shown significant improvement every year that hes been at North Carolina, you don't know if Telfair is still the better player right now. I don't seem to remember Telfair locking anyone up last season, so I don't see any reason to assume that he could lock up two the two quickest point guards in the draft.

Felton is being underrated because he wasn't better than either Williams or Paul last season, but he has more upside than both of them.


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## BBALLSCIENCES (Oct 16, 2004)

Listen to me then, he's still much better than Felton and Paul. Telfair played pretty good D last season pressuring the ball, forcing a lot of turnovers and cutting his man off with his quickness. Some may tell you otherwise, but considering how much basketball I watched of all three last season, he's easily the better defender. He would lock them up because he's faster and just plain better than both of them combined.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

No way, Paul, Deron, and Felton will be superstars
Livingston and Telfair are only 2


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## crowTrobot (Jun 24, 2005)

BBALLSCIENCES said:


> Listen to me then, he's still much better than Felton and Paul. Telfair played pretty good D last season pressuring the ball, forcing a lot of turnovers and cutting his man off with his quickness. Some may tell you otherwise, but considering how much basketball I watched of all three last season, he's easily the better defender. He would lock them up because he's faster and just plain better than both of them combined.


telfair had some steals, but a few quick PG did torch him. jameer in one that springs to mind. he's not that great defensively (yet).


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

2005 is much better deron williams is gonna be a stud..


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## vadimivich (Mar 29, 2004)

Devin Harris would have been the #5 PG in this draft. He wasn't regarded as a better player last year in college than any of the first round picks this year, no idea anyone would think he suddenly became better.

That being said, Bassy and Livingston are studs - especially Livingston.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

If I had to rank the two draft classes and I include Ben Gordon (which I do), taking into account that Duhon made the team and played well, here is what I would come up with. My own personal opinion though.

1. Shaun Livingston, LA Clippers (2004)
2. Ben Gordon, Chicago (2004)
3. Deron Williams, Utah (2005)
4. Sebastian Telfair, Portland (2004)
5. Devin Harris, Dallas (2004)
6. Raymond Felton, Charlotte (2005)
7. Jarrett Jack, Portland (2005) 
8. Chris Paul, New Orleans (2005)
9. Chris Duhon, Chicago (2004)
10. Jameer Nelson, Orlando (2004)
11. Travis Diener, Orlando (2005)
12. Antonio Burks, Memphis (2005)
13. Nate Robinson, New York (2005)
14. Beno Udrih, San Antonio (2004)
15. Roko Leni-Ukic, Toronto (2005)
16. Sasha Vujacic, LA Lakers (2004)

So I guess you can say the 2004 class is better if 4 of the top 5 are from this class, but then again you haven't seen the 2005 class on the floor. Paul, Jack, Felton could all rise easily. Telfair would have to drop, especially if Jack took his floor time and Devin Harris needs to be on the court this year. No excuses to losing out to Jason Terry. Funny thing is, I think outside of the Euro points (which I'm biased against, because they just don't play well in the NBA), the NBA has seen some very talented guys come into the league to man the position of point guard. I'm very pleased at the last two years and next year should be very good, but then after that, there is a noticeable drop after the first two or three guys in each group.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

vadimivich said:


> Devin Harris would have been the #5 PG in this draft. He wasn't regarded as a better player last year in college than any of the first round picks this year, no idea anyone would think he suddenly became better.
> 
> That being said, Bassy and Livingston are studs - especially Livingston.


Devin Harris was picked No. 5 in a better draft. I think you're selling him short. He was picked behind Gordon and Livingston. Every single PG in this draft, would have been selected after those two. Remember in 2004, those PG's all worked out against one another with Gordon winning, but Livingston and Harris were right there with him, Telfair 4th and Nelson 5th. Harris would not have been the 5th best PG and it's really not out of the realm of possibility he goes over Deron, Paul and Felton this year. 

Harris was picked over Iggy, Deng, JR, Jefferson and Josh Smith for goodness sake. You need to give him more credit than that. He played on a Wisconsin team with no real offense besides him and Wilkinson (with Tucker being hurt).


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## vadimivich (Mar 29, 2004)

While in college was Devin Harris considered a better PG than Paul, Felton, Deron or Jack? Not really. It was a need driven pick by the Mavs, and he shot up the boards after the season ended. Were Jack and Paul playing on teams with any real talent either? Both will be lucky to have another player they played with drafted (maybe E. Williams off of Wake, nobody from GT for sure).

I'm just not sold that outside of the couple of hype filled months between the tournament and the draft anyone ever thought of Devin Harris as an elite college PG. I think he's a nice player, but I'm not sure he's the level of the 4 guys drafted this year.

That being said, I think Livingston and Gordon clearly would have been drafted ahead of anyone this year, and Telfair would be right there. Those 3 are terrific (if you count Gordon as a PG).


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Actually, through out his junior season at UW Devin Harris just improved exponentially. I think he could see the NBA on the horizon and he just worked his *** off during that season. He may not have been seen as an elite college point guard even at the beginning of his final season, but by the end it was obvious. And that team had absolutely no consistent option, without Harris that UW team doesn't make the tournament, or at least doesn't do anything; with him they were a trendy final four pick and lost to a Pitt team that was pretty damn good considering Taft was playing as hard as he's ever played.


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## Greater Levitator (Dec 29, 2004)

Why is Beno Udrih so ******* underrated ? It really hurts...

Udrih was better than Devin Harris, Chris Duhon, Jameer Nelson and Sebastian Telfair.

He cracked the Rotation of the best team in the NBA and even played significant minutes in the Playoffs.

The only PG's I see in front of Udrih are:

Livingston, D. Williams and probably Chris Paul.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Greater Levitator said:


> Why is Beno Udrih so ******* underrated ? It really hurts...
> 
> Udrih was better than Devin Harris, Chris Duhon, Jameer Nelson and Sebastian Telfair.
> 
> ...


Hey, I will admit, I am biased against International Point Guards. When they come to the NBA they just don't look very good. Udrih, played on the best team in the NBA, if we switch the roles he was in on a great team with the others, I doubt he succeeds to be honest. He's a backup PG long term, simply because he has below average ball-handling skills (for a pro anyway).


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## BBALLSCIENCES (Oct 16, 2004)

Please, Beno is not that good. He can hit an open jumper here and there and throw a decent chest pass, but he just doesn't do enough to be up there with the rest of the pg's. I don't recall Bassy ever working out with Gordon or whoever else, I know he worked out with Duhon and Nelson and some other pg's, and in the book that came out about him it says that beat Jameer at everything. This matter will soon be put to rest, summerleage is coming and in a few months the season will follow, being that most of the pg's will be starting for their respective teams, we shall have undeniable proof.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Bballscienes, you know summer league means and proves nothing. We'll simply have to wait for the season. No need to mention summer league.


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## BBALLSCIENCES (Oct 16, 2004)

HKF said:


> Bballscienes, you know summer league means and proves nothing. We'll simply have to wait for the season. No need to mention summer league.


Everytime a player steps on the court it means something. Granted, it's not nearly the same as playing in a game that counts toward a championship, but observations can still be made and conclusions drawn.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

BBALLSCIENCES said:


> Everytime a player steps on the court it means something. Granted, it's not nearly the same as playing in a game that counts toward a championship, but observations can still be made and conclusions drawn.


The reason why summer league means nothing is because Qyntel Woods and Bo Outlaw have dominated them in the past. That's all I'm saying.


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## DH12 (Jun 22, 2005)

Jameer Nelson is the one being cut short here.

Nelson = Poor man's Mike Bibby


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## JT3000 (Nov 3, 2004)

DH12 said:


> Jameer Nelson is the one being cut short here.
> 
> Nelson = Poor man's Mike Bibby


I believe Nelson had the best stats of any rookie PG once he became the starter. If Francis moves his ballhog butt to SG, Nelson is gonna blow up. Let them continue to underrate him. Makes it more fun.


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## djtoneblaze (Nov 22, 2004)

Telfair's going to be the best out of these two groups (and out of 2003 if you include that too and don't consider D. Wade a point guard), and Livingston will be a close second). The dude has just been purely groomed to be the best, ever since he was ranked #1 in the eighth grade. It's a sort of LeBron James-type situation.

This is just my opinion, obviously.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

Top 9:
1. Shaun Livingston (2004)
2. Chris Paul (2005)
3. Raymond Felton (2005)
4. Deron Williams (2005)
5. Sebastian Telfair (2004)
6. Jarrett Jack (2005)
7. Devin Harris (2004)
8. Chris Duhon (2004)
9. Jameer Nelson (2005)

Tough call from 3-7, they will all be very close IMO. I love Ben Gordon, but until the Bulls play him at the point for significant minutes, I'll leave him off the list.


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## BBALLSCIENCES (Oct 16, 2004)

1. Sebastian Telfair (2004)
2. Chris Paul (2005)
3. Chris Duhon (2004)
4. Jameer Nelson (2005)
5. Shaun Livingston (2004)
6. Raymond Felton (2005)
7. Jarrett Jack (2005)
8. Deron Williams (2005)
9. Devin Harris (2004)


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

BBALLSCIENCES said:


> 1. Sebastian Telfair (2004)
> 2. Chris Paul (2005)
> 3. Chris Duhon (2004)
> 4. Jameer Nelson (2005)
> ...


Chris Duhon and Jameer Nelson will be the 3rd and 4th best PG's in the last two years huh? :raised_ey


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

1. Shaun Livingston
2. Sebastian Telfair
3. Deron Williams
4. Chris Paul
5. Jarrett Jack
6. Raymond Felton
7. Devin Harris
8. Jameer Nelson
9. Chris Duhon

Duhon is nice and all, but he's just a role player while everyone else will probably be a bit more.


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## BBALLSCIENCES (Oct 16, 2004)

Bassy did his thing in summerleague. Nate Robinson did his too. Paul I saw on TV yesterday and he didn't do too much. I hear Deron has played well, but Felton has not. Livingston was injured again, no surprise there.


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## DaGreat1 (May 18, 2006)

djtoneblaze said:


> There has been a tremendous amount of hype over how good the PG class of this year (2005) allegedly is, but I think that the PG class of 2004 will ultimately (and in the near future, as in next season) be easily the better class of points.
> 
> I'd take Shaun Livingston/Sebastian Telfair/Devin Harris over Raymond Felton/Chris Paul/Deron Williams any day; hell, off the strength of either Telfair or Livingston alone. I like Jameer Nelson, Beno Udrihm and Delonte West over Jarrett Jack, Nate Robinson, and Salim Stoudamire (even though I see him as the sleeper pick of this year's draft), too.
> 
> Thoughts? Opinions? Insults?


don't mean to bump an old thread, but you just have to be amazed by how much of a difference a year can make.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

:eek8: at some of these posts.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

This really seems like some alternate reality now.I really never understood why people were underrating Paul so much before the draft.The guy was the best player in college basketball and he didn't even turn 20 until after the season ended.It's as if they refused to believe the obvious truth.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Wow, Telfair and Livingston have really failed to live up to expectations.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

djtoneblaze said:


> There has been a tremendous amount of hype over how good the PG class of this year (2005) allegedly is, but I think that the PG class of 2004 will ultimately (and in the near future, as in next season) be easily the better class of points.
> 
> I'd take Shaun Livingston/Sebastian Telfair/Devin Harris over Raymond Felton/Chris Paul/Deron Williams any day; hell, off the strength of either Telfair or Livingston alone. I like Jameer Nelson, Beno Udrihm and Delonte West over Jarrett Jack, Nate Robinson, and Salim Stoudamire (even though I see him as the sleeper pick of this year's draft), too.
> 
> Thoughts? Opinions? Insults?


:worthy:


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## supermati (Mar 28, 2005)

Will Telfair ever unleash? I don't think he'll be close as good as predicted...


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## Goubot (Aug 16, 2006)

Yeah, some of these posts look like they were made by lunatics if you consider how the point guard situation is today. Ah well. 

Telfair's making his shots now. His jumper's improved, and he takes a lot of shots inside, but his passing hasn't come around like I thought it would. Right now he's useful but he's certainly not the star people have been predicting he would be. 

Livingston's shooting is still a bit off, although he's 60% from the 3 (off .4 shots a game). He has turned into a very good defender though. Still makes too many turnovers for his own good. Both players have plenty of time to turn it around, but Chris Paul and (now) Deron Williams are clearly outshining them.


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