# Point guard mentality vs. scorer's mentality: a simple poll



## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

In regards to the recent disagreement between MichaelOFAZ and myself on the relative approaches to the game and the mentalities therein of Kirk Hinrich and Jamal Crawford, I have created my first ever poll on this site. Please note that this is NOT a Jamal vs. Kirk extravaganza (we've had more than enough of those already, and quite frankly they're a bit stupid, as both players obviously work very well WITH each other). Rather, this is simply meant to get a feel to see what people think is the general prime instinct each player brings to the table.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

This poll is somewhat of an oversimplification, but I think it expresses sort of an important notion about the distinction between the two players.

Personally, I see JC as like 60% scorer and 40% point guard.

I see KH as probably the opposite: 60% point guard and 40% scorer.

This is based on the idea that "scorer" is the equivalent to "shoot-first" or something along those lines and point guard being "pass-first."


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Agreed, jnrjr. But my comment to which MichaelOFAZ replied "ROTFL" was as simple as the question I pose in this poll.

I'm just getting a general feel from the people who visit this site. Nothing scientific. Just proving a point.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

I know. And I agree with the point you're trying to prove. I think a lot of his analysis of your posts was wrong (and needlessly personal).


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Agreed. When someone starts to get personal, you know the essence of the argument is failing on one level or another...........


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## Happyface (Nov 13, 2003)

I think Jamal sets people up with easier scores. Meaning Jamal will drive and dish more often to a big man for an easy dunk. Sure, Heinrich will do that occasionally, but his strength is getting people open shots and kinda dictating the offense from the perimeter because you know hes thinking pass first. 

Jamal could be a better PG than Kirk if he changed his mentality to be pass-first. Hes just too cocky in his ability to score to have that mentality i think, so hes a combo guard for now.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

When we talk about "mentality", we are talking about one's nature. You can't change that simply by talking to one l;ike "Oh, you are PG. You should pass first". It's not going to happen that way.

If one has PG mentality (pass first) (I think Kirk has it), he can play entire 48 minutes, get decent assists, make his team play better and be totally happy with his game even if he got no points at all. Ask Magic. Ask Stockton. Ask even now days Kidd. They don't care how many points they had in the game as long as they help their team to win the game.

As for Jamal's game, I am a lot more happy and forgiving since Skiles start to use him as SG. Backcourt of Kirk/Jamal seems like the future of Bull more than Curry/Chandler frontcourt.

Having said that, I still dont' get some people's obsession about Jamal being better PG if and only if he gets to learn "PG mentality". I guess that's where they are missing the point. Mentality thing is not about whether he get it ot not. It's about whether he has it or not. 

Kirk has it. Jamal doesn't. Simply as that, and it's not that bad Jamal doesn't has it. In fact he doesn't need it cause he is natural SG. I think Jamal finally found his place in teh league and better concentrate on how to get better as SG rather than trying to get the PG mentality.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

VincentVega, I think the major area of disagreement with most posters on the board is whether or not Jamal is a SG or a PG. Not quite the same as a guard with a "scoring mentality". As the poll is overwhelmingly suggesting, (and IMO) there is no argument on whether or not Jamal and Kirk have respective scoring and passing mentalities.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

i prsonally find this a loaded poll 

kirk has an unselfish mentality i wouldn't by any stretch call it a pg mentality 

kenny anderson has a pg mentality (remember him he was in the last game the bulls played ) JC kirk jamison brewer and anthony johnson in my opinion do not and are bunch of guy who play pg with varying degrees of success , but i wouldn't say any of them had a pg mentality merely that they can all play the position

though he wasn't in the game i would say jamaal tinsley has a pg mentality 

a pg mentality in my mind comes with a presence 

stockton had it ,mark jackson had it, kidd has it, payton has it 

kirk does not ....you can press kirk and watch him get rattled (though not with JC in the game)

a pg mentality doesn't get rattled when people challenge their ability to handle a basketball


but to answer your question on jc he does have a scorer's mentality


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

happyG, Kenny Anderson is far from a PG mentality.

I saw a shoot first PG who is averaging 3.5 dimes a game.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Please correct me if I'm wrong but... Jamal has never tallied more than 12 assists in a game. I think Kirk got 12 dimes versus New Orleans. I'd rate their passing as even.

Jamal has gotten to the stripe 46 times in 652 minutes this season, his 4th in the L. Kirk has gotten to the line 40 times in 466 minutes this year, his 1st in the L.

I would have to say that Kirk is more of a natural penetrator than Jamal (an important characteristic of a PG btw), a better defender, and a better pure PG for this team. JMO. Remember Kirk is just a rookie and I believe management has seen enough to keep him here at PG for a long, long time. Conversely, I see Jamal here as a SG for a long time too. The nice thing is, Jamal can pass and involves teammates too. Win-win situation.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> i prsonally find this a loaded poll
> 
> kirk has an unselfish mentality i wouldn't by any stretch call it a pg mentality...
> ...


I really disagree with this. Kirk was rattled into turnovers his first few games as a pro, but since then he has showed a dramatic improvement, plays gritty as hell, does not seem to be intimidated by anyone at all. His handle has gotten so much better in the last two months, and there's no reason to believe that improvement won't continue.

I don't remember John Stockton's first games as a pro, and I do remember how good Tinsley was right off the bat, but just because Hinrich is making the rookie adjustment does not mean he's not well on his way to obtaining the mythical point guard "it." I'm actually of the opinion that he is well on his way.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Darius Miles Davis, superdave -- EXACTLY.

MichaelOFAZ -- did you vote yet?


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

You know what? I almost became the first vote for Crawford=scorer, Hinrich=scorer. I find the poll sort of silly though. Because in reality, both are looking to score all the time.

Do you not agree with me? Really, an assist is nothing more than you passing to score. Your best option to score is to pass, and as such you pass and we score.

Is there anything wrong with it? No. Assists are great.

Now, nobody will disagree with me that shooting is an attempt at scoring. However, shooting to score has become somewhat distasteful over the past... I'd say 5-6 years or so. There's a lot of reason for it, but it isn't the aim of my post.

Anyhow... when a player's best option to score is to pass, I expect him to pass. When a player's best option to score is to shoot, I expect him to shoot. Really, there is no other bones about it.

To keep going with this idea, the majority of the time, Crawford is the #1 shooting-to-score option on the team. There is no question he is a better shooter than Kirk in most situations. Kirk is a better penetrator, agreed. Kirk has a great jumpshot. But Crawford has a better jump shot, a better off the dribble game, and a better floater in the lane. We continue on...

As far as passing goes, I honestly couldn't tell you who is better. Assists are a very fickle thing. The fact of the matter is, when you pass the reciever has to score within so many steps while making nothing but forward progress. If he doesn't, you don't get an assist. So I do like seeing assists... but they don't completely measure the passing ability of most point guards. It does for someone like Jason Kidd... it doesn't for Kirk Hinrich.

Anyways, when Crawford passes to score, he's passing to someone who is a lesser scoring option. Granted, he might get the ball back, but he might not. If he passes to Kirk I have no question Kirk will get it back to our best scoring option (oftentimes Jamal but sometimes not.)

But if Kirk feels he has a better chance at scoring by shooting, he will. He has. The guy averages 6.5 shots a game... not a lot, but some nights he doesn't shoot and others he's shooting tons. For comparison, Jamal took about 5 in less minutes his rookie year. 

Most of the time, Kirk passes so we can score because he thinks there are better scoring options than himself. However, if the best chance for a score is to shoot, he will. Is that a PG mentality? I don't know... if it is, I want 5 guys with PG mentality on the floor at all times, because we'll never end up taking a bad shot.

The consequence of shooting a lot is missed shots. The consequence of passing too much is turnovers. You need a balance.

Kirk just wants us to score.
Jamal just wants us to score.

Neither is a passer or scorer... both are team players. Jamal is an excellent talent, excellent shooter and excellent passer... he needs to become a better team player to reach that upper level. Kirk... same thing. We've all seen him shoot, he's got a GREAT jumpshot. He's shown his passing skills, and not on nights where he racked up 12 assists but on nights where he only had 4. 

These guys are both for real... they are both here to stay... and as Skiles teaches them more, they are both going to rocket into the upper echelon of NBA players. Believe... it may not be our frontcourt that carries us to the playoffs again. It might be our backcourt.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
> You know what? I almost became the first vote for Crawford=scorer, Hinrich=scorer. I find the poll sort of silly though. Because in reality, both are looking to score all the time.
> 
> Do you not agree with me? Really, an assist is nothing more than you passing to score. Your best option to score is to pass, and as such you pass and we score.
> ...


EXCELLANT POST, I AGREE 100%!!! :yes:


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## Happyface (Nov 13, 2003)

I think calling Kirk a better penetrator than Jamal is ludicrous if you watched the games. Although i'm constantly amazed at how Heinrich scores some of his penetration moves, although they are essentially running jumpers. I've played alot of basketball, and you can tell by how people drive of how comfortable they are with it, and to me Kirk doesnt seem to have too much faith in his ability to drive or moves getting to the hole, although hes got alot of those shots to go in so far. You can hold me to this, but watching him drive i dont see him being able to do what hes done consistently, in fact i think alot of it has been alot of luck with the shots going in. I truly believe he knows this is a weakness of his. I do however agree now with those saying he'll develop a good 3pt shot, i can definitely see that coming along~

As for his handle, i've been more impressed lately by his ability to split defenders. He loves to do that, and hes very good at it. I think his problem in terms of his handle is he picks up his dribble too often when hes being guarded tightly or doubled, and then he usually sits there while theyre all over him trying to find someone open to pass it to. His handle is alot better than i initially thought, but like i said he has a tendency to pick up his dribble too early while being trapped. 

I admit i wasnt too high on Kirk originally, but i've come around to thinking hes going to be a very good point in the league. I've got no hate for Kirk, only the Jamal-haters that love Kirk make me hate on him.


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## Chicago N VA (Oct 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
> You know what? I almost became the first vote for Crawford=scorer, Hinrich=scorer. I find the poll sort of silly though. Because in reality, both are looking to score all the time.
> 
> Do you not agree with me? Really, an assist is nothing more than you passing to score. Your best option to score is to pass, and as such you pass and we score.
> ...


I wholeheartedly agree 100% !!! :yes: 

Excellent Post!

I believe both JC and KH play well and feed off each other well when playing together.

I just hate seeing people still trying to have this "who's the better player" debates/arguments. (KH vs. JC)

I believe we all will see KH shoot more and more as he get's comfortable with his jumper as well as looking to set other guys up in the Bulls offense.

I use this as an example when I started playing bball seriously when I was about 13 or 14 years old (started playing late; football was my first love)... I knew I couldn't shoot for sh*t, really didn't want anybody passing me the ball... but I wanted to be on the court and play with my peers.. So my thinking was.. what do I have to do to get picked to play in pick-up games on a consistent basis?

My answer to myself was... Play hardcore-defense on anyone I was guarding!!!!! That kept me on the court and my peers respected that... I knew my role, the more games I played the more comfortable I got with my offensive skills. 

I guess my point is that.. KH.. shot was no way falling @ the start of the season. I believe his confidence took a hit.. which led him to the thinking I am going to ensure I play tough defense and look to set up my team-mates for me to improve.. and eventually my shot will come around, as it has..

Just my nickels worth!


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Happyface</b>!
> I think calling Kirk a better penetrator than Jamal is ludicrous if you watched the games.


I don't think it's so much that Kirk is better at it, but rather he's more willing to do it. I agree with you 100% that Jamal is better at it from a physical standpoint, but this just goes to show the differences between the two players. 

Kirk just seems to naturally be a more aggressive, attacking player, which is why he gets to the line more often than Jamal does, even though Jamal is more athletic and can do it more easily.


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## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

Interesting poll. I voted for Option 1 (Crawford = Scorers Mentality, Hinrich = PG Mentality). I only wish that had anything to do with our debate. Had you been completely fair with your poll and focused on the issue at hand, you might have posted the poll as follows;

Not based on personnel or the current needs of the Bulls, but purely based on their respective skills ...

1. Both Kirk and JC are best suited as PGs.
2. Kirk is best suited as a PG, JC as a SG.
3. Both JC and Kirk are best suited as SGs.


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## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
> VincentVega, I think the major area of disagreement with most posters on the board is whether or not Jamal is a SG or a PG. Not quite the same as a guard with a "scoring mentality". As the poll is overwhelmingly suggesting, (and IMO) there is no argument on whether or not Jamal and Kirk have respective scoring and passing mentalities.


Exactly!


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## Bullhawk (Sep 8, 2003)

I am not a fan of the Kirk/JC backcourt because I believe that both guys are best defending PG's. Problem is Kirk is a MUCH better defender of PG's and JC's offensive game is MUCH more suited to SG. This is my main gripe with JC and why I think he has no future here. Offensively he plays like a SG but defensively he needs to defend PG's even though he is really bad at that as well just marginally better than defending SG's. It might work if Kirk could cover SG's consistently but that does not make use of Kirks on the ball defense and harassment of PG's.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Happyface</b>!
> I've got no hate for Kirk, only the Jamal-haters that love Kirk make me hate on him.


Actually I think some of it is the other way around. You never seem to take anything bad said toward Jamal. Anybody said any bad thing or any criticism at all. You are of the board just like that.

I don't want to spend any time or energy to this any player vs. Jamal thing but it was always your ridiculously worship-status devotion toward Jamal makes me put my tow cents any way.

Is there any thing you don't like about Jamal?

Is ther any player better than Jamal? on Bulls or other teams?

Is ther any player with more potentials than Jamal?

If so, how do you always have to call someone stupid or whatever? Just because he think you are wrong on some matter? 

For original post of yours, Yes I think Kirk is better penetrator than Jamal regardless what you think. Hers is my argument. When Kirk drives in, i think he has two thing in mind. First he is going to penetrate and if there is shot, he will take it. Second thing is that Kirk penetrte so he can creat open shot for his teammates. 

When Jamal penetrate (if he ever does), it's usually for his shot and shot only.

Other thing to consider is their free throw attempts. If Jamal can penetrate better than Kirk, first question is why he didn't more often? And the second question is how come Kirk has more free throw attempt per game, which indireclty prove Kirk is better penetrator.

Please don't tell me another if and only if Jamal wants to penetrate, he is better than Kirk. Jamal doesn't penetrate moer often than Kirk, which makes Kirk better one by default in my opinion. Period.

So go ahead and call me Jamal hater again.


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## Chicago N VA (Oct 31, 2003)

I believe Jamal Crawford, can take most NBA players off the dribble at will! 

IMO


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Chicago N VA</b>!
> I believe Jamal Crawford, can take most NBA players off the dribble at will!
> 
> IMO


This is also so true. But he tends to force his game rather than let the game come to him to use a cliche.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Chicago N VA</b>!
> I believe Jamal Crawford, can take most NBA players off the dribble at will!
> 
> IMO


I agree, but he needs to learn to parlay that ability into getting himself easier shots (closer to the hoop). When he dribbled through someone's legs last week, it might have been flashy, but it was also the most sensible basketball move he could have made, as he was double teamed against the sideline. He ended up getting right to the hoop, so I say it was the right play. Jamal does have some mad slick handles, but it's what he does when he gets past somebody that usually disappoints me.


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## Chicago N VA (Oct 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> This is also so true. But he tends to force his game rather than let the game come to him to use a cliche.


My biggest gripe with Jamal's game is that @ times he will take a bad shot. Sporadically he does force his game rather let the game come to him.. but that's why I believe KH and JC combination is a good idea - I believe KH compliments JC's game they both are interchangeable... they do play well together..

You can see how it is better for the both of them to play together rather than compete against each other.


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## Happyface (Nov 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> Actually I think some of it is the other way around. You never seem to take anything bad said toward Jamal. Anybody said any bad thing or any criticism at all. You are of the board just like that.
> 
> ...



Oh gimme a break. First of all, i've accepted and given criticism of Jamal, like his shot-selection, i can even probably dig up a few posts where i've criticized his deciision making. The big difference between you and i is my criticisms were based on reality. I never made stuff up or tried to hate on someone making stuff up about their game like you have Jamal. You were the one who said Jamal was awful, and stuff about how he'll never be a good player in the league. You were probably his biggest detractor next to FJ, but at least FJ didnt make tons of stupid crap up just to hate. You were the one discounting everythign he did towards the end of last year. I wish i could dig up some of the posts from you about Jamal just so you could eat half those words, and yes i think your retarded when it comes to analyzing players, a la Jamal. You were VERY far off on your analysis of him from the get-go, while many of the ones you argued with were right. So how do you expect any of us to look at you now, considering you should be eating more crow than anyone here. 

Every criticism i had of Kirk, i supported legitemately. Whether i questioned his handle, his 3 pt shot, etc. they were all legitemate beefs according to his play. But you just made up ignorant stuff about Jamal saying crap like hes not athletic or isnt quick, just stuff thats hating on Jamal without being realistic.




> For original post of yours, Yes I think Kirk is better penetrator than Jamal regardless what you think. Hers is my argument. When Kirk drives in, i think he has two thing in mind. First he is going to penetrate and if there is shot, he will take it. Second thing is that Kirk penetrte so he can creat open shot for his teammates.
> 
> When Jamal penetrate (if he ever does), it's usually for his shot and shot only.
> 
> ...



Ok, first of all thats kinda what i stated. Kirk has a pass-first mentality, while Jamal has a shoot-first one for the most part, but i dont see your logic in how that makes Kirk a better penetrator. I've seen Jamal penetrate much more often than i have seen Kirk, in fact Kirk the majority of time swings it around the perimeter. Jamal doesnt just shoot from the outside if you've noticed, he sets up big men next to the basket better than anyone on the team. Just look at some of the easy baskets Currys gotten as a result of Jamal, i've yet to see Kirk give Curry those types of baskets. Even though i've been put in the position to take away from Kirk, i think he contributes in other areas and is a good passer in his own right, just not the same in terms of inside the lane penetrating. Kirk tends to skirt around the edges, kicking to an open man set somewhere. 

I think Jamal isnt nearly as physical as Kirk is, and i'm speaking offensively. Its obvious thats something Jamal needs to work on, because he should be throwing his body into his drives like AI does to draw the fouls, and hopefully get and 1's. I think he'll learn that eventually. Kirk however, goes straight for contact which is why he gets to the line more often. Jamal plays very soft which is why he doesnt get to the line nearly as much as he should. If Jamal learned how to throw his body into things, he might get hurt more often considering how feeble he is, but he'd get to the line much more than Kirk does, thats a fact. I dont automatically attribute more free throws as being a better penetrator, thats naive. 

Last thing i want to say is 3/4's of the posts that went on here in terms of hating on Jamal/Kirk, came from Jamal-haters starting threads nonstop about Jamal. Then the Jamal-supporters would stick up for Jamal praising him while people like you tried to make up all kinds of crap taking away from him, i mean just silly crap too. I even commented on numerious occasions, specifically in some of those threads of how its always Jamal-haters who start that crap. So dont try and turn it around on the people who've supported Jamal all along who have just reacted to you haters. Alot of you haters brought it on yourselves, and stuff like that wouldnt have been talked about nearly as much if it werent for you haters always trying to start threads hating on Jamal or criticizing him for everything bad that ever happened to the Bulls. Feel free to go back and check, because theres no doubt in my mind how silly some of the crap you said about Jamal was. I never made any criticism of Kirk up just to criticize Kirk, they were all legit question marks.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

What does popular opinion matter?  

All this means to me is that a lot more people think Jamal has more of a scorers mentality and Kirk has more of a pg mentality. All one need do is look at elected officials as a judge of what popular opinion gets you. Give me one person that knows what the heck he is talking about over 40 million that don't any day.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Happyface</b>!
> I think calling Kirk a better penetrator than Jamal is ludicrous if you watched the games.


I disagree 100%.



> You can hold me to this, but watching him drive i dont see him being able to do what hes done consistently, in fact i think alot of it has been alot of luck with the shots going in. I truly believe he knows this is a weakness of his.


Hinrich converted and-one after and-one both in the halfcourt set and in transition for four years at Kansas. He was an absolute terror to defenders, both guards and posts. You know that shot he hit over O'Neal? He did that all during his career at Kansas, so much so that those shots no longer surprise me one bit. He's a pro at taking the hit and finishing, and while he might not be the biggest of bodies, he has fantastic body control in midair.



> I think his problem in terms of his handle is he picks up his dribble too often when hes being guarded tightly or doubled, and then he usually sits there while theyre all over him trying to find someone open to pass it to. His handle is alot better than i initially thought, but like i said he has a tendency to pick up his dribble too early while being trapped.


I agree. I think this will be alleviated fully with a little more experience, however. 



> I admit i wasnt too high on Kirk originally, but i've come around to thinking hes going to be a very good point in the league. I've got no hate for Kirk, only the Jamal-haters that love Kirk make me hate on him.


Point taken.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> What does popular opinion matter?
> 
> All this means to me is that a lot more people think Jamal has more of a scorers mentality and Kirk has more of a pg mentality. All one need do is look at elected officials as a judge of what popular opinion gets you. Give me one person that knows what the heck he is talking about over 40 million that don't any day.


Ace, call me old-fashioned and outdated but... IMO PGs run the offense thereby getting assists in the process, just like Centers rebound and anchor the defense.

What is Jamal's career high in assists? According to NBA.com it is 10, count 'em 10 assists. That smacks of a SG that can pass rather than a PG that can score. This is not an insult to Jamal. Someone like Pierce can give you 8-10 dimes on a given night.. and yes, so can JAmal. 

Jamal's future with the Bulls is as a SG.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jnrjr79</b>!
> This poll is somewhat of an oversimplification, but I think it expresses sort of an important notion about the distinction between the two players.
> 
> Personally, I see JC as like 60% scorer and 40% point guard.
> ...


This is my stance on this. Well said. Crawford has times where he is completely unselfish. To say he has a complete scorer's mentality is faulty.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!
> Interesting poll. I voted for Option 1 (Crawford = Scorers Mentality, Hinrich = PG Mentality). I only wish that had anything to do with our debate.


Let's rehash what we discussed earlier, shall we? First, I said this:

"Hinrich has a point guard mentality, whereas Crawford has a scorer's mentality. Big difference. They both have great court vision and passing ability, but their respective mentalities and how they approach the game are their most discernable differences. Differences that are observed by a great many other people than myself."

In response, you stated this:

"I guess we'll have to agree to disagree or to agree for different reasons. *However, I'll just laugh at your last comment that the "so called difference that are observed by a great many". Like you've taken a poll and the masses side with you."*

I then created a poll which supported with overwhelming numbers the claim I make (and you refute) above. And now you're trying to agree with me? Talk about some Deion Sanders-esque backpedaling.

So my question to you now, MichaelOFAZ, is this: why are you contradicting yourself? Why did you laugh at me earlier, yet now agree with my sentiment? Why don't you think this has "anything to do with our debate"? Seriously, man. Fill me in.



> Had you been completely fair with your poll and focused on the issue at hand, you might have posted the poll as follows;
> 
> Not based on personnel or the current needs of the Bulls, but purely based on their respective skills ...
> 
> ...


Hate to break it to you, but that's pretty much exactly the question I pose in my poll. Fiddling with semantics doesn't change the meat of the argument, but it does tend to throw others off your trail...but only for a small moment.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> happyG, Kenny Anderson is far from a PG mentality.
> 
> I saw a shoot first PG who is averaging 3.5 dimes a game.


the pacers dont run a pg based offense ...they expect kenny to simply faciltate their offense and get the ball 1 person in particular(j. oneal)) to start the offense 

they rarely ask kenny a to break people down or run him around screens to get him in the lane , so its not like they expect him to rack up the assist #s but when he is in that role as he has proven earlier in his career the assist do come 

any one can look at stats and make an arbitrary judgement


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> the pacers dont run a pg based offense ...they expect kenny to simply faciltate their offense and get the ball 1 person in particular(j. oneal)) to start the offense
> 
> they rarely ask kenny a to break people down or run him around screens to get him in the lane , so its not like they expect him to rack up the assist #s but when he is in that role as he has proven earlier in his career the assist do come
> ...


As Anderson has aged, he has become more a hired gun that someone who can run an offense by himself. You're right he was definitely more of a slasher/distributor early in his career... something he currently is not.

02-03 w/ Seattle, 3.2 apg
02-03 w/ NewOrl, 3.2 apg
03-04 w/ Indy, 3.4 apg


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> As Anderson has aged, he has become more a hired gun that someone who can run an offense by himself. You're right he was definitely more of a slasher/distributor early in his career... something he currently is not.
> ...


thats the thing before in his career he was a guy counted on for getting things started on offense ...and finishing them on occasion 

nowadays he is on offense purely a facilitator ,its not his job to rack up assists, its his job to keep the offense moving,make sure the team gets good shots and be a leader out there , much like pippen last year for the blazers who i believed avg. all of 4.4 assists, which is not much better even though i'm sure pip played more min. per game so it was probably even


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> thats the thing before in his career he was a guy counted on for getting things started on offense ...and finishing them on occasion
> ...


these 2 players have a pg mentality over many players who rack up assists in bunches like arenas, francis and the such 

btw francis in his 1st month got 15 assist in 1 game with no to/s yet i bet most people here consider him something of a tweener(just an answer to the JC's career high in assist being lower than KH's must mean KH is more of a pg)


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Francis also led the league in turnovers last year.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Happyface</b>!
> 
> You were the one who said Jamal was awful, and stuff about how he'll never be a good player in the league.


I said that he will never be GREAT player in NBA UNLESS he start to play team basketball, play defense and stop forcing low percentage shot. And I am still stand by my prdiction. Now that he move to SG, his flaws are not noticeable in terms of playmaking. And he will score tons and I am not denying that. but until he tough up and start to play, he will be biggest lability along with Curry when it comes to defense.

In fact NBA is full of Jamal-like. The one who has all the tools to be great player and yet will never get it. They will score tons of points during their own career but most of them won't be remembered as a great player.

As much as I hope that I am wrong in the long run so we can have great player in Jamal, my own preduiction is Jamal won't get to that points. I am predicting this just for you, Happyface, so I can say 10 years from now that I can say to you "I told you so". Call me naive and childish but I have been called "stupid" by him and ridiculed enough already when I never ever call him names. So be it.







> and yes i think your retarded when it comes to analyzing players, a la Jamal.


So here goes again. I disagree with you so I must be moron or retarded. How convenient. Of course you are the basket ball GOD, right? 

Or do you really think that scoring is only thin in basketball? Did I ever disagree with his scoring ability? I always said he is going to score tons. But he is not the one who make teammate better or franchise player who can bring a chmapionship.

So call me whatever you want. Obvisouly cause I told you to stop call a name for whatever reason yet you ketp doing it. 

Or I forgot you are the genius. Touche.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

One more note. 

Great player is like pornography.

You know it when you see it.

And I have seen Jamal for the last 4 years, yet I dont' it.

It is just that. To observe GREATNESS, all you have to do is to llok at it. And 9 out of 10 times, it is just soobvious that you can't misss it.

I don't see IT in Jamal.

I seee IT in LeBron.

I don't see IT in Anthony.

I see IT in Kobe.

I don't see IT in TMac.

List goes on.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> One more note.
> 
> Great player is like pornography.
> ...


wow, you had me agreeing with alot of your posts, but this post causes me to question your credibility. Anthony and TMac aren't destined for greatness?!?!?! If it weren't for Lebron this year, Carmelo would be the runaway rookie of the year and TMac is TMac. 'Nuff said.

By the way, continue your list. What other players can you see in the future???


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

Maybe I could be wrong about Anthony since I only saw him couple of time. So it's mostly my gut feeling and also comparing both LeBron anf Anthony together. Anthony is a fantastic player as he is now but to me as good as he is I haven't seen those uncany moments that differentiate The ONES from all those great players, that goes you make saying "Wow, I haven't seen that before." I saw a little bit of that in LeBron game whether he score tons or not. Anthony is absolutlety fantastic and talented in so many way but yet NBA is alot of Anthonys already.

As for TMAc, I think he is a really great offensive player but he haven't been so much of factor defensively throughout his career. That aspect mainly differentiate him from Kobe in my opinion.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Thats it jsong, keep talking, keep elaborating and illuminating us with your bball knowledge.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> Thats it jsong, keep talking, keep elaborating and illuminating us with your bball knowledge.


Are you being sarcastic, Ace? Although I don't want to label people, I thought you and Happyface are the niggest advocate for Jamal. And your comment is genuine, I am truly shocked.

But what am I? I am just a retard as someone calls.


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