# Dridge vs Barni



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

*Aldridge vs Bargani*

Who do you want and why?

I wanted dridge since I saw him play in the tournement.

The more I think about it, the more I want him over Bargani or anybody else, especially because we have the luxury of the #1 pick now.

here are my reasons


1) He solves, or at least is an attempt at solving our paint problem. I def think he can play the 5 in the NBA. We need a back to the basket player and he is one. Bargani, Morrison, or Gay wouldn't.

2) By Keeping Eva at the 3, like I mentionned in another post, I don't care for a perimeter player, the way raps play, there are too many camping in the outside already. I'd rather have Dridge/Bosh/Eva and dominate the middle and have Eva step out once in a while to shoot the 3, just to spread the floor for Bosh and Dridge.

3) Tripple Towers baby!!!

4) Bosh and Dridge are friends, not only would it be great for team chemistry, but like somebody else mentionned, they would feed off their energy. I cannot think of a better scenario as far as on court chemistry for the raps. Besides, we need to keep Bosh Happy.


How can it NOT be Dridge???

Please do not just vote or answer with a name, let's have a constructive debate here. So leave your arguments for Dridge or Bargani.

Or if you think the pick should be traded, offer a liable scenario (What team, for who/what, how).


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Aldridge vs Bargani*

The center position is becoming increasingly irrelevant in the NBA. Look at the four conference finalists who start: Boris Diaw, DeSagna Diop, Shaquille O'Neal and Ben Wallace. So you've got two '6"9 guys, a scrub and a declining force (albeit a rather handy one). Bottom line, unless you're getting a difference maker at the 5 spot (which Aldridge is most definitely not), it is not the must-fill position of yesteryear. Sure, as Shaq exits, Oden enters... but along with Yao that's only two guys who overmatch anyone and everyone.

If Andrea Bargnani's upside is Dirk Nowitzki, and I truly believe it is (he is possibly an even more fluid mover than Diggler), then you just have to take him. Not to mention, he is *not* a project, he has put up identical numbers to Pau Gasol in the same competition against men - not the guys who won't see a professional basketball floor that Aldridge saw every other game.

Take Bargnani, and it is match-up hell for every other NBA franchise. Take Aldridge and your catering to traditional match-ups for the sake of it.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

*Re: Aldridge vs Bargani*

Weird, I don't remember spelling the title that way

oh well, it sounds pretty good...

Also, I have a question for the Bargani fans, Somebody mentionned he can play the 1. Really??? I mean having a 7' play the one would be sick (assuming that he can actually play it and defend it)


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

*Re: Aldridge vs Bargani*



Greg Ostertag! said:


> The center position is becoming increasingly irrelevant in the NBA. Look at the four conference finalists who start: Boris Diaw, DeSagna Diop, Shaquille O'Neal and Ben Wallace. So you've got two '6"9 guys, a scrub and a declining force (albeit a rather handy one). Bottom line, unless you're getting a difference maker at the 5 spot, it is not the must-fill position of yesteryear. Sure, as Shaq exits, Oden enters... but along with Yao that's only two guys who overmatch anyone and everyone.
> 
> If Andrea Bargnani's upside is Dirk Nowitzki, and I truly believe it is (he is possibly an even more fluid mover than Diggler), then you just have to take him. Not to mention, he is *not* a project, he has put up identical numbers to Pau Gasol in the same competition against men - not the guys who won't see a professional basketball floor that Aldridge saw every other game.
> 
> Take Bargnani, and it is match-up hell for every other NBA franchise. Take Aldridge and your catering to traditional match-ups for the sake of it.




Ok, let's assume that he will actually be a Nowitzki level player. Where does he fit with us? Where does he play? What does he do? Looks to me that whether we cater to traditonal ball or not, the bottom line is winning. I think that bringing dridge here will make us win more, blame it on traditional ball. If we bring bargani here and have Eva come off the bench behind bosh and barni ... would we win more? Eva has shown that he needs minutes, he is extremely productive and I think he should become our #1 option on Offense, not Bosh, he has proven that he is better than Bosh Offensively.

Plus the Combo of Bosh + Eva on the floor is disastrous, A Complete match up nightmare for other teams. Even if Bargani can duplicate that, we wouldn't move that much forward, because we will still get killed in the paint.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Aldridge vs Bargani*

I wouldn't be staking your hopes and dreams on Aldridge to solve your problems in the paint. He isn't even a patch on Andrew Bogut, for example. Then there's the whole softness, injury prone issues which are red flags.

You don't have to look past the Marion/Tim Thomas/Diaw frontcourt of Phoenix to see that the three towers could work. They could be a massive step above of that, even.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

*Re: Aldridge vs Bargani*



Greg Ostertag! said:


> I wouldn't be staking your hopes and dreams on Aldridge to solve your problems in the paint. He isn't even a patch on Andrew Bogut, for example. Then there's the whole softness, injury prone issues which are red flags.
> 
> You don't have to look past the Marion/Tim Thomas/Diaw frontcourt of Phoenix to see that the three towers could work. They could be a massive step above of that, even.




Thing is Diaw was able to atleast defend the 5. Not great, but atleast stop it.


Raps have nothing, I keep hoping that Araujo will come into his own, but there aren't much time left.
Sides, Suns have STAT, Diaw was just a quick fix, I doubt Diaw will play the 5 over KT and STAT next season.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

I think Aldridge is a much safer pick at the 1 than Bargnani and also fills an important position on this team.

In terms of being able to play centre, he has the size to defend most any centre in the league not named Shaq. And I'm sure that by the time next season comes, he'll be weighing in at around 250 or so and probably top out at 260-265 in a few years.

For a guy just finishing his sophomore year, he has got a pretty nice post game, which is something that Bosh and Villanueva both seem to avoid although I think Charlie could become a helluva post up 3. With English around, I think that Aldridge could learn some really nice moves and become a really nice offensive centre.

In terms of defence, his long arms will be great for grabbing boards, disrupting shots and getting some weakside blocks. He's quicker and more agile than most seven footers which will mean better help defense and a much better presence in the middle of a zone defence. Will he be an immediate force on defence? Not likely, most players aren't, but he'll be solid in his first year and I see no reason why he wouldn't develop into a very good defensive player based on what I've seen.

As far as future deals go, drafting Aldridge would allow us to hold off on blowing wads on a big man this year. Maybe grab a good backup type (mihm?) and save capspace for next year to throw crazy cash at Hinrich to lure him Nort' a da borda!


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

on side note, most updated mock draft has us picking aldridge.

Chad Ford and collegehoops has us picking TT, doesn't make any sense to me. Last thing we need is an undersized PF.

About.com and maybe another site (Forgot who) Has us picking Barni.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> on side note, most updated mock draft has us picking aldridge.
> 
> Chad Ford and collegehoops has us picking TT, doesn't make any sense to me. Last thing we need is an undersized PF.
> 
> About.com and maybe another site (Forgot who) Has us picking Barni.


Chad Ford has you taking Bargnani, in his mock which you can obviously only see as an ESPN Insider. He has Thomas at the top of his list of prospects, though.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

Team Mao said:


> I think Aldridge is a much safer pick at the 1 than Bargnani and also fills an important position on this team.
> 
> In terms of being able to play centre, he has the size to defend most any centre in the league not named Shaq. And I'm sure that by the time next season comes, he'll be weighing in at around 250 or so and probably top out at 260-265 in a few years.
> 
> ...


It really seems that you've looked at his height, weight and wingspan and made many assumptions about his ability to defend and board based on that. There's a lot more to it than numbers. There are a plethora of guys in this league who are bigger than Aldridge who can't lay a finger on Shaq and Yao.

Let's say you could add Dirk Nowitzki/Pau Gasol or Brad Miller to your team, _today_. It's not a tough choice. And I think they either player is equally likely to reach those comparisons based on their previous performances against competition of different standards.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Greg Ostertag! said:


> It really seems that you've looked at his height, weight and wingspan and made many assumptions about his ability to defend and board based on that. There's a lot more to it than numbers. There are a plethora of guys in this league who are bigger than Aldridge who can't lay a finger on Shaq and Yao.
> 
> Let's say you could add Dirk Nowitzki or Brad Miller to your team, _today_. It's not a tough choice. I think they either player is equally likely to reach those comparisons based on their previous performances against competition of different standards.



dridge did do a good job at rebounding and blocks in the tourney though.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

Greg Ostertag! said:


> It really seems that you've looked at his height, weight and wingspan and made many assumptions about his ability to defend and board based on that. There's a lot more to it than numbers. There are a plethora of guys in this league who are bigger than Aldridge who can't lay a finger on Shaq and Yao.
> 
> Let's say you could add Dirk Nowitzki/Pau Gasol or Brad Miller to your team, _today_. It's not a tough choice. And I think they either player is equally likely to reach those comparisons based on their previous performances against competition of different standards.


I looked at his game, his athleticism and I looked at his size. He will be better able to defend 5s at the NBA level than Bosh, CV or Bargnani (if we were to draft him). 
He has great speed and agility for a 7 footer, so we will have no problem running fast paced with him in the lineup.
In terms of matching up with Shaq and Yao, it shouldn't be a concern. Shaq is pretty much done and we only meet Yao twice a year. 
Where does the Brad Miller comparison come from?

Oh and thanks for trying to call me out as a moron. Peace.


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## open mike (Jan 3, 2003)

whoever mentioned that he could play the 1, i think he was reffering to the center position :S


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Geez, this is too tough too call without seeing them in workouts and seeing what they can do at the camps.

If Bargnani comes over and blows everyone outta the water (I think he will) I think the Raps should draft him. If worse comes to worse who've got a few great frontcourt prospects on rookie contracts and I can't see it being too hard to trade one of them.

Damnit, where Toxi and the rest of the Italian crew?


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

PHX

1st Pick

Hoffa and/or EW

TOR

Leandrino Barbosa

21st Pick

Barbosa will be looking for a raise soon, and the Suns are near the Luxury threshold.

OR

ATL

1st Pick

Hoffa

TOR

5th pick

Smith OR Childress


OR

Delayed deal

CHI

1st Pick

Hoffa / EW / No one

TOR

2nd Pick

Duhon


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

blowuptheraptors said:


> PHX
> 
> 1st Pick
> 
> ...


The second trade looks okay even though I think Chicago could stand to cough up a bit more with all the talent on their roster. I was a huge supporter of picking up Bargnani at the five pre-lottery. Now however, I'd rather just hold on to the pick (and Aldridge) unless a good package comes along including a young, proven talent.

Not a fan of the first trade though... Barbosa is not worth giving up the #1 pick for. He's unable to run the point and has been playing as an undersized 2 this season. He's a greater slasher and fast as light, but I'd rather just sign (or trade for) Marcus Banks who plays a similar game and wouldn't cost us the top pick.


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## PickleJ74 (May 24, 2006)

Neither player solves the problem in the middle. Why not take the best player available and fill the center spot with a veteren through a trade or a signing. We just need someone to bang for 20-30 minutes a night. And none of the top prospects look like they can come in and do that right away.

Plus, could someone explain the difference between Channing Frye and Aldridge for me. They seem to have similar knocks against them (e.g. too soft).


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ Welcome to the site!

Like Charlie Villanueva, if someone lights a fire under Aldridge's *** he can become one of the most talented bigs in the NBA. He's got a whole lot more going for him than Frye last year, IMO.


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## Sunset (May 3, 2006)

*Re: Aldridge vs Bargani*

First off, let me say congratulations to Toronto and all their long-suffering fans. I'm very happy for you guys!



Dee-Zy said:


> Ok, let's assume that he will actually be a Nowitzki level player. Where does he fit with us? Where does he play? What does he do? Looks to me that whether we cater to traditonal ball or not, the bottom line is winning. I think that bringing dridge here will make us win more, blame it on traditional ball. If we bring bargani here and have Eva come off the bench behind bosh and barni ... would we win more? Eva has shown that he needs minutes, he is extremely productive and I think he should become our #1 option on Offense, not Bosh, he has proven that he is better than Bosh Offensively.
> 
> Plus the Combo of Bosh + Eva on the floor is disastrous, A Complete match up nightmare for other teams. Even if Bargani can duplicate that, we wouldn't move that much forward, because we will still get killed in the paint.


 I appreciate what you're saying here and it makes good sense. In general I'm a fan of the idea that you build an honest-to-God team of players that can complement each other rather than simply collect a bunch of mismatched talent. In addition, though I confess I was a bit of a doubter, Eva is a good, young player and you shouldn't get rid of one simply because you think you see something better over the horizon. 

But. IF you assume Bargnani will develop into a "Nowitzki level player" then you absolutely have to take him and make the team fit him. As good as he is and promising as he may be, Eva will never be a Nowitzki level player and probably not in the same ballpark. We're talking about a guy who by his 28th birthday (ie Eva in six years) has two All-NBA 3rd-Team selections, two 2nds and now back-to-back 1sts on his resume. As much as I like Eva, he's not special, merely good (or very good). There are a handful of guys who are truly special and if the Toronto braintrust is sure AB will be (or is at least likely to become) one, then you can't actually not draft him, poor fit or not. 

BTW, I'm not saying "take LA" or "take AB", I don't have any real opinion on how good either of them will be, but if I was Colangelo (with his track-record) and I was genuinely convinced Bargnani was really Dirk 2.0, it's a no-brainer.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

Greg Ostertag! said:


> It really seems that you've looked at his height, weight and wingspan and made many assumptions about his ability to defend and board based on that. There's a lot more to it than numbers. There are a plethora of guys in this league who are bigger than Aldridge who can't lay a finger on Shaq and Yao.
> 
> Let's say you could add Dirk Nowitzki/Pau Gasol or Brad Miller to your team, _today_. It's not a tough choice. And I think they either player is equally likely to reach those comparisons based on their previous performances against competition of different standards.


So you think Bargani is going to be a combo of Gasol/Nowitzki and Brad Miller? What are you basing that on.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

*Re: Aldridge vs Bargani*



Sunset said:


> First off, let me say congratulations to Toronto and all their long-suffering fans. I'm very happy for you guys!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How can anyone be absolutely sure that Bargani is the next dirk untill he actually produces *IN THE NBA*?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: Aldridge vs Bargani*



mo76 said:


> How can anyone be absolutely sure that Bargani is the next dirk untill he actually produces *IN THE NBA*?


True, you can't be sure of any player before they play in the NBA.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *PickleJ74 !*
> 
> Neither player solves the problem in the middle. Why not take the best player available and fill the center spot with a veteren through a trade or a signing.


this is why I wouldn't mind taking Aldridge if he is indeed the best player available, even if he doesn't fill our glaring need for a big man


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## Sunset (May 3, 2006)

*Re: Aldridge vs Bargani*



mo76 said:


> How can anyone be absolutely sure that Bargani is the next dirk untill he actually produces *IN THE NBA*?


The post I quoted and responded to, though, begins with the supposition "Ok, let's assume that he will actually be a Nowitzki level player. Where does he fit with us?" and goes on to say that even if he is, don't take him. My point is that if that's your assumption, then you have to grab him, because it doesn't matter whether he fits or not, a Nowitzki-level player is simply too rare and valuable to pass up.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *mo76 !*
> 
> How can anyone be absolutely sure that Bargani is the next dirk untill he actually produces IN THE NBA?


an ESPN analyst said he is more Vladimir Radmoniv than Dirk, and questions his desire to be a great player, just his opionion.


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

Just an added note:

Many Euro scouts have admitted that Bargnani is still too weak to guard 4s and too slow to keep up with 3s in the league. There's a good chance he could very well be a liability on the other end of the court. On the other hand, Aldridge was the Big 12 DPOY.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Aldridge vs Bargani*

i think the most likely scenario will be that Toronto will deal out of the 1 spot to either 2 (Chicago) or 4 (Portland) and with their pick, they will choose Bargnani...

if we dont deal out of the 1 spot, i still think we will end up with Bargnani...

whatever does happen tho, i trust BC will make the right decision...he knows talent when he sees it and if he chooses Bargnani over Aldridge, i wouldnt be all up in arms about it....


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## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

Hmmmm .... I wonder what Colangelo wants to do with the Raptors ... run 'n gun or halfcourt .... and perhaps Bosh got it right when he said that we need somebody under the boards to bang it out ...??!!

Maybe Colangelo will surprise everybody and trade away the #1 draft pick for a lower draft pick and players ... now wouldn't that be something .... :laugh:


You must be reading my mind .... !!!



NeoSamurai said:


> i think the most likely scenario will be that Toronto will deal out of the 1 spot to either 2 (Chicago) or 4 (Portland) and with their pick, they will choose Bargnani...
> 
> if we dont deal out of the 1 spot, i still think we will end up with Bargnani...
> 
> whatever does happen tho, i trust BC will make the right decision...he knows talent when he sees it and if he chooses Bargnani over Aldridge, i wouldnt be all up in arms about it....



So who do you think that Colangelo will want from either Chicago or Portland for the #1 pick .... and I agree that Bargnani is not a #1 pick ..... ??!!


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## Guest (May 24, 2006)

mo76 said:


> How can anyone be absolutely sure that Bargani is the next dirk untill he actually produces *IN THE NBA*?


Of course not.

But from the video I've seen, its pretty uncanny the resemblence. He has beautiful form on his 3-pointer, and hits it effortlessly from well behind the euro-arc. And he can drive, cut without the ball, sees the floor, hustles for loose balls, hits free throws, and blocks shots.

His defensive rebounding and on the ball perimeter defense may need a little work, but uh, so did Dirk's.

There are lots of 250 lb guys who don't play tough. Unlike de-zay, what I saw from LA was a guy who looked great for in some situations, then disappeared at key times. He seemed overmatched against LSU, and sort of melted down on offence when faced by an player of similar athleticism. He never gave up on D though. 

And to be honest, I kind of like the fact that he DOESN'T need the ball in his hands to contribute. It's just that as much as I like that, I don't look for deference in a #1 overall pick. I want swagger. I want the guy who wants the ball with the game on the line.

I'm not convinced that LA is an allstar; I agree he is a safe pick. Bargnani, to me, is the ONLY #1 prospect in the draft.


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## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

The Really Mad Viking said:


> Of course not.
> ..snip..
> 
> Bargnani, to me, is the ONLY #1 prospect in the draft.



Okay .... Raptors put Bosh and Bargnani on the floor at the same time ... two PFs ... what happens next ... and who fills in the rest of the starting lineup to make it work ... ????

Bosh is a half court player who will post up ... while Bargnani appears to be a run 'n gun slasher in a Euro league ... and can he bring the same game to the NBA ... ???

Do you see this as the equivalence of Amare and Marion ..???

So many questions ... so few answers ....


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

MonsterBosh said:


> Hmmmm .... I wonder what Colangelo wants to do with the Raptors ... run 'n gun or halfcourt .... and perhaps Bosh got it right when he said that we need somebody under the boards to bang it out ...??!!
> 
> Maybe Colangelo will surprise everybody and trade away the #1 draft pick for a lower draft pick and players ... now wouldn't that be something .... :laugh:
> 
> ...


first off, re: Bargnani and if he is a #1, i think that he has all the potential in the world and probably has the highest ceiling out of any other player in this draft...just because we havent seen much of his game live (unlike Aldridge and what we saw out of his this year and in particular the March tourney), doesnt mean he isnt worthy of the #1...if BC truly believes that Bargnani is the pick, i wouldnt disagree with him since hes done extensive work in terms of scouting Andrea....

with that said and what Andrea's camp has been saying about how he'd be willing to play for only a fraction of the teams in this league, i think that BC has a great bargaining chip to use against Chicago and Portland...

Portland could use a quality, young big man like Lamarcus to go along with their young guards and forwards....same case can be said about Chicago...with that I think BC can first go to Portland and ask for the 4, plus either Blake or Dixon for the 1....at the 4 spot, they have a realistic shot at having Bargnani dropping to them (that is if Chi-town decides to not draft Bargnani) while picking up a 1 who could score and distribute....

if they do this, they can then go to Chicago and ask them for the 2 and Duhon for the 1...also TheScore has a small report on their ticker saying that Toronto would deal their 1 for Charlotte's 3 and Brevin Knight....so theres a lot of options that BC could go with while still getting his supposed "guy" in Bargnani...


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

personally, i try to stay away from choosing *one* of them and presenting his case for discussion, and then forcing myself to expose the weaknesses of the other's game. it doesn't work like that in real life. they each have pros and cons. if i were to grade their games on a scale of 1 - 10, i think the difference would be like 7.7 to 7.3 or whatever. it's not like we're talking about ~ michael jordan and vincenzo esposito here.

i'm satisfied just thinking about the value we'll get from this pick- no matter how it materializes. we will get something. and depending on how you look at it, we could be getting something for nothing- we just jumped from 5 to 1 for... nothing, really. it might not be much of a difference but... it might also become a substantial difference. we just got that 'potential' for free- and i'm happy to remain satisfied with such good luck.

if i'm worried about anything, it's about... hmm... trading for established nba players. we've heard some talk about that. the specific one that worries me is bound to come up at some point, though... you know who i'm talking about... and i cringe. i don't think bryan is so myopic to make the same decision on cheap criteria but who knows. we probably won't know for awhile so my paranoia is sure to be active (on some level) until then. and the young raptors fans who can't/don't form their opinions on the basis of anything more than newspaper headlines are going to scare the crap out of me.  i'll have to live with that.

but really, my hopes for this team are not to get older overnight. i don't want a veteran all-star tomorrow. i think we have the makings of a long-term force here. i'd rather enjoy a 10 year run- even if i have to accept slightly more risk- than a 5 year run. we laid an excellent foundation already, true, but i don't think i want to get up from the table yet. our hand is still too good for that, imo. 

peace


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

I'm surprised Tyrus Thomas isn't getting any love here. You would think that if the Raptors would go with another power forward, it would be someone who covered Bosh's and Villanueva's weaknesses (rebounding and shotblocking). Even though I think Aldridge is the BPA cause he has the most balanced game, I'd pick Thomas over Bargnani consider the skill-set difference (defense vs. offense). Tournament fairies are kind of sketchy in my book though (read: Thomas and Noah).


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

mo76 said:


> So you think Bargani is going to be a combo of Gasol/Nowitzki and Brad Miller? What are you basing that on.


I think Gregory was basing his upon the notion of "if they reach their potential", in which case Bargnani turns out to be the next Gasol/Nowitzki to hit the scene. The Brad Miller tune was in reference to where Aldridge might stand as a center in this league (ie Borderline Top 5-ish center) if he hits his ceiling.


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## gp366 (Jul 19, 2003)

ESPN's Greg Anthony compared Bargini to a "Vladimir Radmonovic-type player, rather than Dirk Nowitzki". Look, i'm tired of hearing about every European player being "the next Dirk Nowitzki". Heck, I'm tired of saying every guard being "the next Michael Jordan". It's just not going to happen.

With No #1's you have to draft the best guy....That's Aldridge. PERIOD.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Anthony has an axe to grind with Toronto because he wanted to be our GM and we didn't give him the time of day.


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## cram (Jul 18, 2003)

1 - i seriously doubt Greg Anthony has watched much of Bargnani. He's just talking because as a so-called expert its what he's being paid to do.

2 - even if Bargnani is the next Dirk, he isn't going to develop into that in Toronto. Not while Bosh is cemented at the 4. If BC is serious about playing Bosh primarily at the 5, he'll end up paying the max to a guy who'll at best burn out and at worst get injured.

3 - if Aldridge develops into a 250-260 lb version of a poor man's Bosh who can play center, why are we considering NOT taking him? I'd take a bosh-who-could-play-center over just about any player in the league not named Dwight, Lebron, or Dwyane.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

TRON said:


> an ESPN analyst said he is more Vladimir Radmoniv than Dirk, and questions his desire to be a great player, just his opionion.


It was commentary by Greg Anthony.

-Petey


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

gp366 said:


> ESPN's Greg Anthony compared Bargini to a "Vladimir Radmonovic-type player, rather than Dirk Nowitzki". Look, i'm tired of hearing about every European player being "the next Dirk Nowitzki". Heck, I'm tired of saying every guard being "the next Michael Jordan". It's just not going to happen.
> 
> With No #1's you have to draft the best guy....That's Aldridge. PERIOD.


ESPN's Stephen A Smith called CV the worst pick in the draft.

Any slagging of a prospect by ESPN should be taken as a sign that they are actually good.

Anyway, Anthony is talking out of his ***. Bargnani (why can't anyone spell his name?) can stroke the trey, has a very nice pull-up jumper off the dribble, and can take it to the rack and dunk it. And he can block shots. I believe he has more fire and toughness than Radman, but I haven't seen enough whole games to be sure of that.

A realistic evaluation of Bargnani, based on (a) watching what he can do and (b) comparing his performance level to Pau Gasol at the same age in the same league, suggests that he will likely be a player of the similar impact in the NBA as Gasol or Dirk.

Whereas Aldridge is really not much of a scorer- 15ppg in the Big-12, and completely disappearing in several key games. He's a nice fit for the raps and I would be happy with him we had the 2nd pick. But he simply does not have the upside of a Bargnani.

Tyrus Thomas is a project, too risky for the #1 pick. He's a post player who was big throughout his college career but will be undersized in the NBA. I think he may become a very good player - he has some Shawn Marion in him - but he is very, very raw offensively and will have to learn to defend on the perimeter in the NBA. Center skillset in a NBA 3 body. I'd rather have the skills of a 3 in the body of a center, thank you very much.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

The Mad Viking said:


> Tyrus Thomas is a project, too risky for the #1 pick. He's a post player who was big throughout his college career but will be undersized in the NBA. I think he may become a very good player - he has some Shawn Marion in him - but he is very, very raw offensively and will have to learn to defend on the perimeter in the NBA. *Center skillset in a NBA 3 body. I'd rather have the skills of a 3 in the body of a center, thank you very much.*


Nicely put.


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## gp366 (Jul 19, 2003)

There have been more European busts than successes. Since 1999 these europeans have been drafted in the first round (with no college experience):

Aleksandar Radojevic---bust (even though he did play CC basketball)
Frederic Weis---bust
Andrei Kirilenko---all star
Hidayet Turkoglu---bench player
Dalibor Bagaric---bust
Iakovos Tsakalidis---bench player
Primoz Brezec---starter (even though it's charlotte)
Pau Gasol---all star
Vladimir Radmanovic---bench player
Raul Lopez---bench player (injury prone)
Nikoloz Tskitishvili---bust
Bostjan Nachbar---starter
Darko Milicic---bench player (not worth 2nd pick)
Mickael Pietrus---bench player 
Zarko Cabarkapa---bust (17th pick? 18th was David West)
Aleksandar Pavlovic---bench player
Boris Diaw---all star (talking about post-season)
Zoran Planinic---bust (doing horribly in NJ)
Andris Biedrins---bench player
Pavel Podkolzin---jury's still out
Viktor Khryapa---starter (even though it's the worst team in the NBA)
Sergei Monia---jury's still out
Sasha Vujacic---bench player
Beno Udrih---bench player
Fran Vazquez---jury's still out
Yaroslav Korolev---jury's still out
Johan Petro---bench player
Linas Kleiza---jury's still out
Ian Mahinmi---jury's still out

7 busts, 11 bench players, 3 starters, 3 all stars (Kirilenko, Gasol, Diaw). Not good odds.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

gp366 said:


> There have been more European busts than successes. Since 1999 these europeans have been drafted in the first round (with no college experience):
> 
> Aleksandar Radojevic---bust (even though he did play CC basketball)
> Frederic Weis---bust
> ...


Unfortunatly, you haven't noticed that there has been twice as many college player busts over the same time.


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## Sunset (May 3, 2006)

Just a few random comments to the list...I'm not saying it's not useful to make lists like this (though '99 as your cutoff date is just a little arbitrary, don't you think? Conveniently leaves off the very best player who was drafted in '98). Secondly, I'm not sure how much it enlightens us to know that eg Beno Udrih (drafted 29th, IIRC) is a bench player. I'm guessing that the number of guys taken outside of the top 15 in any draft who become a quality starter in the NBA is no greater than 1 in 10. Comparing Bargnani to other top 5 European picks (tiny data set though it is) or Colangelo's track-record might be more revealing than what some GM who can't find a job in the NBA decided to do X number of years ago. 

Oh, don't mean to nitpick, but Kleiza played college ball in the USA and you left off Nenad Krstic and Tony Parker, two of the better straight-from-Europe examples.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Sunset said:


> Just a few random comments to the list...I'm not saying it's not useful to make lists like this (though '99 as your cutoff date is just a little arbitrary, don't you think? Conveniently leaves off the very best player who was drafted in '98). Secondly, I'm not sure how much it enlightens us to know that eg Beno Udrih (drafted 29th, IIRC) is a bench player. I'm guessing that the number of guys taken outside of the top 15 in any draft who become a quality starter in the NBA is no greater than 1 in 10. Comparing Bargnani to other top 5 European picks (tiny data set though it is) or Colangelo's track-record might be more revealing than what some GM who can't find a job in the NBA decided to do X number of years ago.
> 
> Oh, don't mean to nitpick, but Kleiza played college ball in the USA and you left off Nenad Krstic and Tony Parker, two of the better straight-from-Europe examples.


Nicely put Sunset, I'd rep you but I have to spread it around first. Really good posts man, I hope you keep it up.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

shookem said:


> Nicely put Sunset, I'd rep you but I have to spread it around first. Really good posts man, I hope you keep it up.




How do you have to spread it around first? His rep is at 0. Doesn't that mean nobody has ever repped him before?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Dee-Zy said:


> How do you have to spread it around first? His rep is at 0. Doesn't that mean nobody has ever repped him before?


No, I repped him. Look at the amount of points he has, it's about the amound of seven posts X 15 points plus the amount of my rep power.

I'm not an expert on rep, I guess we got a lot on this forum though, Bud Boi (the creator of this spawn) and Air Jordan (the ring master of the circus)


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

gp366 said:


> There have been more European busts than successes. Since 1999 these europeans have been drafted in the first round (with no college experience):
> 
> Aleksandar Radojevic---bust (even though he did play CC basketball)
> Frederic Weis---bust
> ...


You almost made me compile a list of "big man draftees---status" in a two-decade span, all being irrelevant when determining who is the concensus #1 pick in the 2006 draft. I hate you.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

shookem said:


> No, I repped him. Look at the amount of points he has, it's about the amound of seven posts X 15 points plus the amount of my rep power.
> 
> I'm not an expert on rep, I guess we got a lot on this forum though, Bud Boi (the creator of this spawn) and Air Jordan (the ring master of the circus)



No worries, I got him...


but you are right, usually when I rep ppl, their rep goes up pretty well, he's still at 0


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

Rhubarb said:


> I think Gregory was basing his upon the notion of "if they reach their potential", in which case Bargnani turns out to be the next Gasol/Nowitzki to hit the scene. The Brad Miller tune was in reference to where Aldridge might stand as a center in this league (ie Borderline Top 5-ish center) if he hits his ceiling.


Im getting really sick of these player comparison theories. Someone said Bargiani is the next Dirk and Aldridge is the next camby, therefore, we have to draft Bargiani. Give me a break. I think some people but way too much stock in player comparisons and should maybe form their own opinions instead of regurgitating what a couple of scouts said about him. All ive seen of Bargiani is the three clips poasted on this site, which is probably about as much the people that claim Bargiani is the next dirk. I would say Bargiani is the next Peja, MAYBE. I wouldnt use a number one pick to draft him if i already have a young proven player at the 3.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

mo76 said:


> *Im getting really sick of these player comparison theories.* Someone said Bargiani is the next Dirk and Aldridge is the next camby, therefore, we have to draft Bargiani. Give me a break. I think *some people but way too much stock in player comparisons* and should maybe form their own opinions instead of regurgitating what a couple of scouts said about him. *All ive seen of Bargiani is the three clips poasted on this site*, which is probably about as much the people that claim Bargiani is the next dirk. *I would say Bargiani is the next Peja*, MAYBE. I wouldnt use a number one pick to draft him if i already have a young proven player at the 3.


LOL, you used your own logic against yourself.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

shookem said:


> LOL, you used your own logic against yourself.


LOL


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Speaking of the Bargnani-Peja comparison, isn't Peja a free agent this offseason anyway?


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

mo76 said:


> Im getting really sick of these player comparison theories. Someone said Bargiani is the next Dirk and Aldridge is the next camby, therefore, we have to draft Bargiani. Give me a break. I think some people but way too much stock in player comparisons and should maybe form their own opinions instead of regurgitating what a couple of scouts said about him. All ive seen of Bargiani is the three clips poasted on this site, which is probably about as much the people that claim Bargiani is the next dirk. I would say Bargiani is the next Peja, MAYBE. I wouldnt use a number one pick to draft him if i already have a young proven player at the 3.


Peja can't take his man off the dribble and/or finish acrobatically at the hoop like Bargnani.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

shookem said:


> LOL, you used your own logic against yourself.


You missed the point of what i was saying. Dirk is an MVP candidate. Just because Dirk and Bargani are compared doesnt mean Bargani is a future MVP candidate. People are acting like Bargani is actually a clone of Dirk Nowitzki. Comparisons are fine when talking about a players style, but not so great in terms of estimating production. What "logic was i using against myself" as you so pretentiously put it. I didnt say player comparisons were worthless, im just getting sick of people saying, "you cant not draft THE NEXT NOWITZKI". People are taking the comparison to Dirk way to literally. Thats all I was saying. Its obvious you have an agenda to take away from my cred or make me look bad ect. but why dont you read my post next time instead of making assumptions based on a few kew words.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Aldridge, big man that can block shots secure rebounds, a guy that can run the floor and give us 3 high flying 6"11 guys from the 5-3.

It would really open up things for everyone when you have 3 6"11 guys that have good shooting range good handels and can run well.

with Aldridge you can then use the Suns formula all you need is a PG that can distribute the ball well and play at a really fast up tempo style, Hopefully Calderon can do that.

basically Aldridge do the things Hoffa was supposed to but has failed misrebely and become a C Hoffa was supposed to a 12/8 type guy but put much higher numbers i.e 17/9/1(Stl)/(blk)2 by year 2 or 3

as a rookie rough
MPG 25 PPG 11.5 RBD 7.2 1.7 STL 1.2 BPG

Bargani will be a great pro but we are loaded at PF and have invested large at SF with Villinueva.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

trick said:


> LOL


Oh, im sorry. 

Draft Bargani!!! Draft Bargani!!!!

is that better?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

mo76 said:


> Oh, im sorry.
> 
> Draft Bargani!!! Draft Bargani!!!!
> 
> is that better?


:uhoh:

You actually think there's some internal war from the "Those who want to draft Bargnani" camp and "Those who want to draft Aldridge" camp? I'm just opposed to your "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" approach in your posts. How about giving some constructive comments to your post rather than attack everyone who doesn't agree with you.

Then again I should just save myself the grief and just put you on the IL instead.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

mo76 said:


> You missed the point of what i was saying. Dirk is an MVP candidate. Just because Dirk and Bargani are compared doesnt mean Bargani is a future MVP candidate. People are acting like Bargani is actually a clone of Dirk Nowitzki. Comparisons are fine when talking about a players style, but not so great in terms of estimating production. What "logic was i using against myself" as you so pretentiously put it. I didnt say player comparisons were worthless, im just getting sick of people saying, "you cant not draft THE NEXT NOWITZKI". People are taking the comparison to Dirk way to literally. Thats all I was saying. Its obvious you have an agenda to take away from my cred or make me look bad ect. but why dont you read my post next time instead of making assumptions based on a few kew words.


Relax man, I'm not here to make you look bad and that's not the FBI in the car across the street.

I really don't like player comparisons at all and agreed with a lot in your original post until you said, "...he's the next Peja". You're able to judge his playing style from three youtube clips? If so dude, you should be a scout because that is amazingly perceptive of you.

I was just pointing out a little hypocrisy, now c'mon have a coke or something.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

trick said:


> :uhoh:
> 
> You actually think there's some internal war from the "Those who want to draft Bargnani" camp and "Those who want to draft Aldridge" camp? I'm just opposed to your "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" approach in your posts. How about giving some constructive comments to your post rather than attack everyone who doesn't agree with you.
> 
> Then again I should just save myself the grief and just put you on the IL instead.


What are you talking about. Im not from the "draft aldridge camp either". I just think that drafting bargani makes no sense. Thats my opinion and i stand by it. I guess if think drafting bargani is a good move then i would disagree with you. 

PS, id never put anyone on iggy, not even you.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

We are all going on what we think these players will measure out at. I would like to see final combine results and then speculate if LA or AB can play the 5. I am sure that the gm said that AB has the ability to play the five in a year or two....I may have heard wrong on that one.

Aldridge did not seem like a big banger to me in College....what makes everyone hear think he will do it in the NBA?
Bargnani looks like a jump shooter, but do we know anything about his post game?

I can't pick yet


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

billfindlay10 said:


> I can't pick yet


There are just too many possibilities or scenarios to think about in terms of how to improve this team centered around this one pick. As a fan it's irritating and confusing to think about, but kind of enlightening to know that the raps are in the driving seat throughout this debacle.

Colangelo, on the other hand, is one I feel sorry for.


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## chocolove (Apr 4, 2006)

Some people say Bargnani wouldnt fit in with the raps but i think he really can, and do it well too. what I picture is

C-CV
PF-Bosh
SF-Bargnani
SG,PG- doesnt matter preferbly ones that can shoot and distribute obivously

CV can be like Diaw for PHX, cut, set screens to create mismatches, shoot from the outside, midrange all that 

Bosh would set up where he usually sets up and tear it up like usual

and Bargnani would be outside waiting for shots or use his size advantage to create mismatches inside

On D they would have 2 near 7 footers and 1 7 foot guy that can disrupt penetraters well enough i think and front centres, double team the opposing big on the catch or move . Acquire a "banger", role players through free agency and draft a couple of role playesr in the second round and youre set

EDIT: forgot to mention Iam assuming Bargnani will become everything we say he is


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

*Re: Aldridge vs Bargani*



Dee-Zy said:


> Thing is Diaw was able to atleast defend the 5. Not great, but atleast stop it.


villanueva, bosh, and aldridge can all defend centers better than boris diaw.

but aldridge is not a center. he may be the best pick, but that means the raptors playing with a 3 power forward lineup. it can work, but they need some guards that can handle the ball. aldridge also isn't a back to the basket inside presence on offense type of center. he is more of a finesse offensive player that has a nice midrange game. defensively though he's long, will block shots, and grab rebounds.

really either aldridge or bargnani would be a good pick for the raptors and either way they will have to be committed to an unconventional lineup.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I wouldn't mind either at #1. Aldridge makes more sense because he's more of a 5 and a better defender whereas Bargani's game/position is similar to Charlie's. However, do we really want a post up guy when we should be looking for Bosh pretty much every time down low? 

As I've said before, Aldridge finishes our frontcourt. If we draft him, we don't sign a big man. Bargnani confuses things a little but I'm sure that if Mitchell has Charlie bombing 3s as a rookie, Bargs could be doing the same for us next year. Don't forget that he's a slasher too.

Aldridge is more post up; Bargs is more face up. Thing is, with Bosh being the man, are we really going to be looking for either of them very often on offense? Which one is the better role player? And which has the better demeanor to deal with such a role? My vote goes to LeMarcus but I'm in the dark as much (or more i suppose) as the next guy.

On the flip side, I've never seen a 7 footer move quite like Bargnani, not KG and not even Dirk. I know they're just highlights but man, he just flows into that first step. And his shot is going to be dynamite; what a release. Having Charlie and Bargnani on the court would open things wide open for Bosh and penetrating guards.

So what to do? I usually wouldn't be an advocate but I think we've gotta trade. Someone mentioned #1 for #4 and Jarret Jack, which is on the right track- it leaves us with Rudy Gay (the guy I officially want now) or Adam Morrison at least. We've got cap space to get a center. Rudy Gay is a better fit than Bargnani because he's coming in as a role player AND has star potential. If we're going to have a star player at the 5, I want Bosh to be that guy; if Mitchell wants a role player at the 5, we can bring in a free agent or use Hoffa.

If we pull the trade, which is very realistic IMO, we come out looking something like this:

Calderon/Jack/Ukic
Mo Pete/Joey Graham
Charlie V/Rudy Gay
Bosh/Sow/Bonner
Joel P/Hoffa

With plenty of money left over. I like it for next year and the future.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

SkywalkerAC said:


> I wouldn't mind either at #1. Aldridge makes more sense because he's more of a 5 and a better defender whereas Bargani's game/position is similar to Charlie's. However, do we really want a post up guy when we should be looking for Bosh pretty much every time down low?
> 
> As I've said before, Aldridge finishes our frontcourt. If we draft him, we don't sign a big man. Bargnani confuses things a little but I'm sure that if Mitchell has Charlie bombing 3s as a rookie, Bargs could be doing the same for us next year. Don't forget that he's a slasher too.
> 
> ...




that's a really good argument

and we could always have a second rounder SG like Denham brown or allan ray or one of those guys ppl talk about, (I don't keep track of em)


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

I still want Aldridge though... lol

Thing is, the way I see things is that, Aldridge is the missing puzzle. He has shown that he can play Center and as great as we have the #1 pick, I don't expect him to be a Shaq or a Duncan, because there are none in this draft. I think he will be the best at playing C out of the draft, and that's what we need. He also runs the floor well so I can see him on the raps with a run ang gun style.

Also, he displayed stuff I wanted from our C, rebounds and blocks, that's what he did in the tourney. I don't need him to score, we got Bosh and Eva for that and as a 3rd option Mo Pete (I hope that CV will become the 2nd option if MJ leaves, which I think he will), so Aldridge would be a 4th option on the team, or 3rd at best.

Finally, Aldridge would defend the paint better than Bosh or CV. Bargnani won't.

anyways, maybe I'm just having a man crush on Aldridge...


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

Team Mao said:


> In terms of matching up with Shaq and Yao, it shouldn't be a concern. Shaq is pretty much done and we only meet Yao twice a year.


So, that's two teams that will be a concern match-up wise throughout the season. So why bother trying to match-up with them? Pick the best player available.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

Ive been saying to draft aldridge because yes, he fills a need. Then again, its kind of depressing that all we would get from winning the lottery is Lamarcus Aldridge. The guy can improve his game (add lower body strength, get better offensivly) but he seems to be ball-less. It says that in his profile on nbadraft.net, but the thing that bothers me is that you can tell that from watching him for like 30 seconds. Dont get me wrong, he does all the things that the raptors need, adequetly, but I dont think he is a difference maker and hes a number one pick?????!!!!!! Then look at tyrus thomas. The guy doesnt fit into our starting lineup, just like Bargani. He does bring toughness and interior D . I love his demenour. He would bring us energy off the bench and could get time at the 3, 4, 5 imo. He could just go in for 3 min or 30 min and be effective, what he does doesnt require that he gets into a flow. And he has so much potential. Someone in the Bulls forum said " dont put too much stock in aldridges polish at age 20" and i agree with them. The fact is tyrus is a player in the NBA, simple as that. His attitude combined with his athletisism make him like darius miles with the mentality of ben wallace (worst case scenario!!). Comparing him to stro is like comparing bargani to darko.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

I think people here are making two mistakes.

1, they are evaluating based on the Raptors needs. You never pick #1 overall based on need. You pick the special player.

2. they are evaluating "need" based on a conventional, traditional, approach to basketball. While thay isn't wrong, it simply is not the way the Raptor's team is going to play, and not the way the roster is going to be constructed. This is the Colangelo era.

Bangers still play a role, but they are unlikely to start unless they are a banger who runs like a greyhound. 

You don't draft a "banger" with #1 overall, unless he happens to also have about 3 other major skills, and 3 more minor skills. K-Mart was a such a player, and one of the weakest ever #1 picks. Maybe Tyrus Thomas can be such a player, but I'm not convinced he is as tough as K-Mart, who is incidentally missing a ton of time with injuries.

Colangelo wants long, athletic skilled players. The pace of the game makes back to the basket play less important. Phoenix defends centers with speed as well as length and leaping ability to front them with speed to support behind; and exceptionally quick double teams with quick rotations. They don't intend to defend a big post-up player one on one, which is smart because they will usually score or get fouled.

Bargnani, at age 20, was among the leaders in Euroleague in 3 pt shooting percentage and in blocked shots. He has great leaping ability and is 7 feet tall. He has a pull-up jumper off the dribble that is smoother than mo petes. And people seem to think that having these skills in addition to being 7 feet tall makes him worse than if he didn't have the skills and was just a banger.

Watching Phoenix beat Dallas on Tuesday night, I had a vision of things to come. When it comes, the game will be so fast you won't want to blink, for fear of missing something.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

I dunno, I see PF's like Dirk and Sheed and Marion all hang around the three point line and do quite well at it.

Bosh can't hit a three pointer like those guys I mentioned, Bargnani can, so can CV31. Now of course I'm not saying trade Bosh or anything, but rather look at what some of the other top teams have playing in their frontcourt and look at which player would help the Raps emulate that the best. I think that's Bargnani right now. Alridge could do a lot of good for this team, but are far as ceiling goes, IMO Andrea's is higher.


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