# Caron Butler... it hurts!



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

I think it's almost time to ask if he is better than Lamar.

What a stupid trade that I will never, ever get over.... or at least until the Lakers win another title.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

i've been thinking the same thing for a while now...

smush/farmar
kobe
butler
odom
bynum

would've been pretty sweet for you guys...


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

Every time I see him play or see Wizards box scores, I just can't take it. Imagine the Lakers with Butler, Lamar and kobe. That would be the scariest trio in the NBA.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

It really does suck. Why couldn't we just give up Atkins for Brown? Haha.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

Basel57 said:


> It really does suck. Why couldn't we just give up Atkins for Brown? Haha.



i don't even know why you guys wanted brown in the first place...


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

I only wanted Brown if we didn't have to give up Butler. I could see both sides as to why it was good and why it was bad.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

He wouldn't of played the same here. But he is better than Kwame


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## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

What hurts more is the fact that Caron Butler is playing defense with passion

He never did with the Lakers

It must be something about being the starting SG for the Wizards. 
Larry Hughes... Caron Butler... who's next? Stevenson?


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

I never had a problem with the idea of trading Butler, its when we essentialy only got Kwame Brown in return that annoyed me, I felt back then that there are more logical options.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

bootstrenf said:


> i don't even know why you guys wanted brown in the first place...


Either did I. I wouldn't have signed him for the MLE.

When the trade first went down like 98% of this board was in favor of it.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

i was against it, but lightened up to it because at the time we had no bynum.. only mihm, odom, and brian grant for our front court. 

caron is a great player, but we had to trade him for a big.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> Either did I. I wouldn't have signed him for the MLE.
> 
> When the trade first went down like 98% of this board was in favor of it.


I wanted to keep butler, he got along very well with Kobe. Plus he just fits well with current system. He is a great slasher AND amazing at the free throw line, I hate mitch. The guy is fascinated by wannabe jumpshooters.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

KennethTo said:


> I hate mitch. The guy is fascinated by wannabe jumpshooters.


At this point your hat must be for Mitch most be personal because his wannabe jumpshooters brought the Lakers to the fifth best record in the league


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## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

I say it loud and proud

Kwame > Caron


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> I think it's almost time to ask if he is better than Lamar.
> 
> What a stupid trade that I will never, ever get over.... or at least until the Lakers win another title.


I don't understand the point of this thread. Question: Can Caron Bulter play as center? Of course not; that's why the Lakers traded him for Kwame. If you guys are still questioning Kwames worth to the team even after the past ten games or so then you guys have no right to complain about any more Laker losses, which most of the recent losses came from lack of post, rotation, and paint D - all of which that Kwame has provided to the team. As for Butler being better than Odom; that is debateble, but contimplating right on 'what could have beens' regarding the choice between Butler and Odom is a direct inslult to what Odom has done this season and how well he and the Lakers played with him on the floor. The point is, Caron can score, rebound, hustle, and occaisionally pass well but can he run an offense (a triangle offense at that)? No. That's why he's gone - the Lakers had to choice between a hustle swingman or a Point Foward who can allow Kobe to focus on defense as his second role instead of running the offense. Which one would you choice? thank you.

- The One


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

The only reason Caron is better than Lamar right now is because Lamar is not playing. When he is healthy and playing, that question is insane to me. Lamar is multi-capible and can do many things that caron cant do. 

Although if you were to tell me was Kawme and Caron a good trade? If I hadnt known the Lakers would get a 19 year old named Bynum I'd say it was needed, but now I find myself thinking how great a Caron, Kobe, Lamar, and Bynum lineup would be. 

Theres a lot of people on this forum and others that over rate Kawme brown, but the truth is he is never going to be the player the lakers need. His mind is weak and it affects his game. Bynum is not only a better scorer at 19, he is a better passer, and a FAAARRRR better rebounder. His man/man suffers somewhat, but he makes it up in smart team defense. 

When I think Kawme makes that kind of cash, for what he gives It disturbs me a little. If he resigns for MLE when his contract is up, and comes off the bench for Bynum I will be happy, but the dude is not worth 9 million and definatly not worth Caron Butler.


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## Ghiman (May 19, 2003)

It doesnt hurt that much. Although, CB is having a pretty good season with Washington, i dont think his numbers would be similar to that here under PJ's offense.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> Although if you were to tell me was Kawme and Caron a good trade? If I hadnt known the Lakers would get a 19 year old named Bynum I'd say it was needed, but now I find myself thinking how great a Caron, Kobe, Lamar, and Bynum lineup would be.
> 
> Theres a lot of people on this forum and others that over rate Kawme brown, but the truth is *1.* he is never going to be the player the lakers need. *2.* His mind is weak and it affects his game. Bynum is not only a better scorer at 19, *3.* he is a better passer, and a *4.* FAAARRRR better rebounder. *5.* His man/man suffers somewhat, but he makes it up in *6.* smart team defense.
> 
> *7.* When I think Kawme makes that kind of cash, for what he gives It disturbs me a little. If he resigns for MLE when his contract is up, and comes off the bench for Bynum I will be happy, but the dude is not worth 9 million and definatly not worth Caron Butler.


1. He has been what the Lakers needed interier defense. Why do you think he took the start from Bynum?

2. Bynum's mind is weaker: bad calls and mistakes effect how he views himself alot more than Kwame - you can watch Bynum's emotions and tell that he is thinking too much during the game.

3. You most be out of your mind. Kwame is a whole lot better passer than Bynum on the fact that he is more decisive. Bynum holds on the ball to long and usually misses the best pass. Did you forget how many assist Kwame is averaging this season?

4. Bynum is better rebounder but not any more consistent than Kwame. Both Kwame and Bynum swing between good and bad rebounding games

5. his man/man Suffers alot especaily compared to Kwame.

6. He can't guard the pick and roll. nuff said; since Kwame (and Lamar) is the only player that can guard the pick and roll.

7. That is true. He is not worth 9 million dollars

You say that a lot of people are overating Kwame. But a lot of people are overating Bynum and thinking only on potential. It's sickening that even after these las couple of loses people are still questioning why the Lakers have kwame even while he is not playing. Kwame's worth will not show on the boxscore because lets face it, he can't score but his defense is far needed and a lot more relaible to just kick him to the curve. 

There's no point to this thread: Kwame is essential to the teams success. Period.


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

caron + kobe + odom - kwame = NBA Title


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## Shaolin (Aug 6, 2004)

Can I just be blunt?

Caron Butler ain't ****. Losing him was really no great loss, and as of yet getting Kwame is no great gain. Its a wash. 

I don't dislike the guy and I hope he's doing very well. But he's not so awesome a player that his trade was regrettable.

<font color="red">Watch the masked cursing...</font>


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## Silk D (Feb 6, 2006)

caron is a great player, i will always be a fan of his and I really wish it could've worked out. but you seriously need to get over this ****. saying he's better than lamar is hardly worth commenting on, I'll just say this; caron CAN NOT do what lamar does. and slammin' kwame every chance you get is, well, pointless. If the trade came up again, and I didn't have a crystal ball that would see us getting the pleasant suprises of Andrew and (to a lesser extent) ronny, than I would do it again. lamar is not as effective at the 4. we had a VERY thin front court. were there better options? most likely. bit we knew it was hit or miss, and I'm not so sure it's been all miss. you can't measure kwame's contributions on the defensive end because they don't show up in the stat sheet. and where would we have seriously been last year when chris mihm went down w/o kwame? 

we can't go back in time, move on man

<font color="red">Again peeps, watch the masked cursing..</font>


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

The One said:


> 1. He has been what the Lakers needed interier defense. Why do you think he took the start from Bynum?
> 
> 2. Bynum's mind is weaker: bad calls and mistakes effect how he views himself alot more than Kwame - you can watch Bynum's emotions and tell that he is thinking too much during the game.
> 
> ...



Honestly, the Lakers were getting raped by the pick and roll all season. Thats with Kawme and Lamar, an without them. Theres a reason why so many people have labeled Kawme a bust, because he is. A first round pick, first overall pick, that averages 8 ppg and 6 rpg, is sickinging. IN fact it makes me SICK to think that there are still people out there that defend him. Talk to me when he can simply dunk the basketball instead of trying to lay it up. Talk to me when he can consistently catch the ball.

The guy cant even average a double double in this leauge and he has been playing in the NBA for six seasons... Right now a 19 year old kid... a in his second year puts up the same numbers as Kawme and its only his second season. Not six seasons, but two.

The only way Kawme brown is a better pass than Bynum is if he actually catches the ball to start the play, thats rare in itself. 

If you choose to believe that Bynum in his second year doesnt already show 10 times more promise than Kawme brown, who is the most over hyped defender, over paid big man in the western conference, is better than Bynum... Than I got a bridge to sell you. The guy is a bust, will always be a buys, and will never be a player that is worth 9 million a year. He will not get paid that much when his contract expires, you can book mark this thread. If he does, then throw it in my face. The guy is over paid and weak. 

When you have a body like Kawme, you should be easy at 10 and 10.. Im not asking for Carlos Boozer numbers, just a solid double double. But the guy is lethargic on rebounds half the time, and in reality Bynum shows already a natural instinct in rebounding and scaring that Kawme has never had. And more than likely will never have.

And for the record he took the start from Bynum because of the cocky attitude bynum pulled. Showing up late to practie, etc didnt please Phil Jacksonw who already has ahard on for Rookies, and it just turned into that. All I know is, I dont know how many times Ive seen Kawme blow a wide open dunk that could have win or at least put us in the contention to win... Where as Bynum.. I cant think of one. Hell the kid even makes most of his free throws. 

I dont hate Kawme, I just think he is getting 4 million more a year than he should. And I dont think he will be starting come next year. Just my opinion. though, I know the Kawme nutt huggers are going to disagree. But sooner or later people gotta stop making excuses for him.

For the record, pinning these last few losses on Bynum is lame. The losses came from poor shot selection, poor team defense by EVEYONE and in some cases even Kobe. Just like Bynum gets no credit fror the GS win when he pulled down 15 boards and 10 points, the coin flips both ways. The kid is 19, shows more talent and skill than a Kawme brown thats had 6 years to become something great. At what point do we stop making excuses and just except him for what he is? A great backup in this leauge.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Pain5155 said:


> caron + kobe + odom - kwame = NBA Title


Caron + Kobe + Odom - Kwame = Miami, Detroit over Lakers for the title since nobody on the Lakers can guard Shaq nor any foward on the Pistons.


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## onelakerfan (Nov 11, 2004)

would you trade any of this players for CB
LeBron James, CLE 
Shawn Marion, PHO 
Mike Miller, MEM 
Andre Iguodala, PHI 
Carmelo Anthony, DEN 
Luol Deng, CHI 
Josh Howard, DAL 
Rashard Lewis, SEA 
Tayshaun Prince, DET 
Ron Artest, SAC 
Luke Walton, LAL 
Shane Battier, HOU 
Richard Jefferson, NJ 
Andres Nocioni, CHI 
Boris Diaw, PHO 
Josh Smith, ATL 
Quentin Richardson, NY 
Ruben Patterson, MIL 
Kyle Korver, PHI 
Lamar Odom, LAL 
Anthony Parker, TOR 
Danny Granger, IND 
Mickael Pietrus, GS 
Gerald Wallace, CHA 
Andrei Kirilenko, UTA 
Mike Dunleavy, IND 
Charlie Bell, MIL 
Ryan Gomes, BOS 
Desmond Mason, NO 
Matt Barnes, GS 
Trenton Hassell, MIN 
Rasual Butler, NO 
John Salmons, SAC 
Jason Kapono, MIA 
Hedo Turkoglu, ORL 
Ime Udoka, POR 
Damien Wilkins, SEA 
Matt Harpring, UTA 
Joey Graham, TOR 
Bruce Bowen, SA 
Tim Thomas, LAC 
Wally Szczerbiak, BOS 
Dorell Wright, MIA 
Quinton Ross, LAC 
Jerry Stackhouse, DAL 
James Posey, MIA 
Gerald Green, BOS 
Trevor Ariza, ORL 
Jason Richardson, GS


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

onelakerfan said:


> would you trade any of this players for CB
> LeBron James, CLE
> Shawn Marion, PHO
> Mike Miller, MEM
> ...


Out of that list, these are the players that I would trade Caron With
Mike Miller, MEM 
Andre Iguodala, PHI 
Luol Deng, CHI 
Josh Howard, DAL 
Luke Walton, LAL 
Shane Battier, HOU 
Richard Jefferson, NJ 
Andres Nocioni, CHI 
Boris Diaw, PHO 
Josh Smith, ATL 
Quentin Richardson, NY 
Ruben Patterson, MIL 
Kyle Korver, PHI 
Anthony Parker, TOR 
Danny Granger, IND 
Mickael Pietrus, GS 
Mike Dunleavy, IND 
Charlie Bell, MIL 
Ryan Gomes, BOS 
Desmond Mason, NO 
Matt Barnes, GS 
Trenton Hassell, MIN 
Rasual Butler, NO 
John Salmons, SAC 
Jason Kapono, MIA 
Hedo Turkoglu, ORL 
Ime Udoka, POR 
Damien Wilkins, SEA 
Matt Harpring, UTA 
Joey Graham, TOR 
Tim Thomas, LAC 
Wally Szczerbiak, BOS 
Dorell Wright, MIA 
Quinton Ross, LAC 
Jerry Stackhouse, DAL 
James Posey, MIA 
Gerald Green, BOS 
Trevor Ariza, ORL 
Jason Richardson, GS

But what does this have to do with the Lakers besides that fact that Caron is probably worth more than Walton?


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> *1.* Honestly, the Lakers were getting raped by the pick and roll all season. Thats with Kawme and Lamar, an without them.
> *2.* Theres a reason why so many people have labeled Kawme a bust, because he is. A first round pick, first overall pick, that averages 8 ppg and 6 rpg, is sickinging.
> *3.* IN fact it makes me SICK to think that there are still people out there that defend him. Talk to me when he can simply dunk the basketball instead of trying to lay it up. Talk to me when he can consistently catch the ball.
> 
> ...


Let'g get this straight first:
- His name is spelled K-W-A-M-E. If the miss spell was a joke, sorry I missed it 
- And Yes, I do hug Kwame's nuts proudly :biggrin:

1. Very true..., but how many points in the paint have the Lakers been giving up since Kwame and Lamar (but mostly Kwame) been out?

2. So?

3. I would stop defending him but his nuts that I'm hugging are too hairy and warm.:biggrin: 

4. So?

5. .......umm..Kwame is a better passer than Bynum. Period. 

6. Again the word 'Promise' and 'Potential'. For all we know, Bynum may not get any better than then he is now - anything can happen. As for Kwame? I don't think he's going to get better, but that's not the point. Kwame is providing for the team the way he is playing as of right now. Plus...what do you mean weak? SHAQ COULDN"T EVEN SCORE ON THIS DUDE! For pete's sake he just now coming back from a *severe ankle injury* in *just two weeks*. WEAK? (unless you are talking about is lack of dunking then..maybe) Bynum does have great promise in post offense. His hands and foot work are great...just needs to get a little stronger - like Kwame 

7. Still stuck on numbers and stats....tisk tisk.

8. Phil said he do not like his work ethic.....let's stick with what we know for sure.

9. There was only ONE game that Kwame's mistakes cost them the win and that was against charlotte which was also Kobe's fault too. Unfortunately that game was quite recent and still on people minds (Get Over It! )

10. Finally the truth comes out. This has nothing to do with the Lakers success. It's just Kwame being paid 9 million and You Are Not:biggrin: j/k.....(I mean Kwame getting paid big money without giving the stats)

11. I wasn't pinning these losses on Bynum. I'm pinning these losses on the Lack of Kwame. Kwame..and Odom are only two players but when a few players play great defense then that inspires the whole to play defense. Simple as that.

12. Again...so? At least Kwame was able to get to this point - he's just a late bloomer,..but this has nothing to do with Kwame's worth to the Lakers success this season.

13. Here's where I clearify everything: I have never made an excuse for Kwame. I know very well of all the '*Kwame faults': *Bad hands especially during transistion play, Does not utilize the square when shooting off glass causing alot of bad miss layups, very inept shot blocker for his height and speed. 

You, CDRacingZX6R, are making the mistake. You have not pointed out any Kwame positives in any of your posts which makes me wonder is you even watch the Lakers at all this season. Pointing out the positives of Kwame is not making excuses for him, it's giving both sides to a situation. That's why I asked if you have a personal problem with kwame. Does him making 9 million bother you? Does him being the first overall pick but not putting all-star stats bother you? If so then Stop It. The Lakers right now don't care that he was a first overpick. The Lakers right now don't care that he's not putting up awsome numbers. They don't even care that he's praticaly stealing 9 million dollars from them. You want to know why they don't care? Because what Kwame is bringing is enough for them to win. They don't need Kwame to be an all-star - heck that's the reason why he's over here.....to not have so much pressure.

Face it. Kwame, just like Odom, is the reason for the Lakers' success and to that I say _"To Heck with Caron Butler"_. The Lakers got Kwame and I got his balls firmly pressed to my chest :bsmile: 

Now close the thread.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

you can call me crazy if you like, but i'd trade caron for kwame right now (if we had a super thin frontcourt).. if kwame is the best available option.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

afobisme said:


> you can call me crazy if you like, but i'd trade caron for kwame right now (if we had a super thin frontcourt).. if kwame is the best available option.


Yer mucho loco amigo!

I look at Evans and he's already half the man Butler is and Kwame gives us 1/2 the value Butler gives, so value wise and mathemtically speaking, we dont need Caron.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

The One said:


> Let'g get this straight first:
> - His name is spelled K-W-A-M-E. If the miss spell was a joke, sorry I missed it
> - And Yes, I do hug Kwame's nuts proudly :biggrin:
> 
> ...


That sad part is... You believe this. :biggrin: 

It's ok though, at least you admit to being a K-W-A-M-E nutt hugger. Honestly, he's got a game that only his mother (and uninformed fans) could love. 

Numbers dont tell all, true. But they at least show something. The facts. 1) Kwame is almost 7 foot, yet cant get more than 6 rebounds a game consistently. 2) He drops juggles more balls than a prostitue in the red light district. If only he could catch (and I mean catch the ball and dunk, pervert). He'd be better. 

I can agree with the loss of Odom as being big. Because lets face it, I know you hate stats (Another name for stats if proof), but he put up rebounds and points and started getting his turnovers under control before the injury. Our rebounding and points in the paint went down signifcantly when Odom went out. Kawme was still playing, but the problem was he was playing like normal so it didnt make any difference anyway. But thats right, he did guard Tim Duncan once very well. :lol: 

Again, I think Kawwwwwwwme will make a great back up. Which I promise you he will be. If not this season, next for sure. The truth is, the guy hasn't done anything worth noting. And when HE finally started stepping up in the playoffs, he ruined it by missing a key rebound and playing pathetic basketball in the remaining two games. Thats his reputation. His legecey, his down fall. He doesnt hand the mind that great players have, and thats to bad. A body like his could have lead him to great things, but he isnt even a third option for scoring on this current team and he makes more than most of the players. 

But don't take my word for it. :biggrin: I like the guy.. I really do. I like his defense, and I like what he brings when matchups premit it, but bynum at 19 is really close to if not better in most areas. He has far better foot work, patients, and intellegence. And a couple things you cant teach out there. All I know is he wont have to worry about the pressure cause soon he will be comming off the bench for a 20 year old kid. :yay: :biggrin:

Now you can close the thread.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> *1.* Numbers dont tell all, true. But they at least show something. The facts.
> *2.* (Another name for stats if proof),
> *3.* Our rebounding and points in the paint went down signifcantly when Odom went out. Kawme was still playing, but the problem was he was playing like normal so it didnt make any difference anyway.
> *4.* But thats right, he did guard Tim Duncan once very well. :lol:
> ...


1. If numbers don't tell all then how can they be the Facts? (simple logic)


2. If numbers don't tell all then how can they be Proof (simple logic)


3. Yes. Put I was only concerned about the defensive end - how much point the Lakers have been giving up in the paint. Kwame has a huge effect on that.


4. He guarded Tim Duncan, Shaq, Howard, Bosh, O'neil, ect.; even Garnett gave Kwame some props and how he guarding him. Let's see Bynum try and deny those the players the ball.


5. First time you used 'Great' and 'Kwame' in the same sentence. Is this a glimps of a change of heart for you 


6. I'll keep note of this statment.


7. Now you are just impulsively throwing blame (wrong ones) to put Kwame down. First off it was Odom that missed _The_ rebound, and Smush that sucked the last couple playoff game - he's the one that has a bad legacy now, not Kwame. Kwame's only putrid game was game seven were...well everybody sucked.


8. Who says he needs the mind of a great player? Who cares if he's not the third option? Isn't there five men on a team? If he's the fifth option, so what. Nobody, but you, is asking Kwame to be a star. Their are plenty of players in the league that are very althletic like kwame but are only averaging 'Kwame' numbers.... they're still contributing to their team though and that's all that they can ask for. It seems to me like you feel you are smarter than the coaching staff because Kwame will not be starting let alone given minutes on the team if the coaches and players didn't feel that Kwame was contributing or not worth anything, that of which you are claiming.


9. You say you like his defense and matchups that he brings (obviously showing worth), yet you said he "hasn't done anything worth noting" earlier in your post. I guess my persuasion has gotten to you. You went for ingnoring to acknowledging some of Kwame good atributes in the same post....keep it up:clap2: 


10. Very true. His foot work and patients is excellent. Though there are some great things that kwame does that can't be taught: Post Steals, Screen Defense, ect.


11. Bynum will always feel pressured until he knows for sure that he's is starting...at least that's how his play this season so far has shown me. In the beginning Bynum came out on fire, Kwame comes off the bench and plays well enough to get is Starting job back, then Bynum dissappears....WHERE'S BYNUM!!? :biggrin: Kwame then gets injured and presto, Bynum is back on fire. What type of mind set is that? He needs to be ready for the game whether or not he starts.


12. Don't close the thread yet....this is a good battle going on :wink:


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## onelakerfan (Nov 11, 2004)

It's easy to find a good SF it is hard to find a good PF


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## onelakerfan (Nov 11, 2004)

The One said:


> Out of that list, these are the players that I would trade Caron With
> Mike Miller, MEM
> Andre Iguodala, PHI
> Luol Deng, CHI
> ...



it's easy to draft or find a good SF but it's hard to find a good PF or C


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

onelakerfan said:


> It's easy to find a good SF it is hard to find a good PF



so kwame is a good pf???

caron is an excellent sf, whereas kwame is mediocre at best...


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

There is some good discussion on this thread, but let's try to simplify things a bit.

Was Caron Butler for Kwame Brown a crappy trade? The answer is without question, YES. We absolutely positively needed a bigman at the time. But under no circumstances does that justify making a 1 for 1 trade with such a significant talent drop off. Don't give me the bigs are more valuable than guards/swingmen garbage. If that's the case, let's trade Odom for Nazr Mohammed. Trading Caron Butler was the right decision because of the thin frontline and glut of small forwards. Trading him for Kwame Brown was not anyway you slice it. It's similar to the Shaq deal. IMO, he needed to be traded, just not for Grant's huge contract and players who were not even borderline all-stars at the time(Western Conference). Obviously the best thing to do is forget about the past and focus on the success of this current team even if it would be more successful with Caron(it would).

Just to throw this in, I can't let the Lakers record allow me to believe that Mitch is doing a good job. He's been raped in three trades. The Celtics fiasco was obsurd. They just happen to strike bronze with a filler, Chris Mihm. He somewhat redeemed himself with the Mo Evans trade, despite the fact that Dumars approached Mitch about it. Our current success is a huge credit to Phil, not the front office.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

For the record, Kwame is nowhere close to a PF on this team. And he is not a good C. Because he is a Laker, I will continue to root for him. I will also moan and groan when Kwame ****s up. But stop implying that fans who criticize players bad or fareweather fans. That's just ridiculous. Fans who have been with a team for an extended period of time will vent. It doesn't mean we're pessimistic, insular, and/or disloyal to the Lakers. It's what diehard fans do.


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

bootstrenf said:


> so kwame is a good pf???
> 
> caron is an excellent sf, whereas kwame is mediocre at best...


Why dont u fully read this...he said it hard to draft a good PF. Kwame was and is still developing...Caron is just another jumpshooting player..


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

SoCalfan21 said:


> Why dont u fully read this...he said it hard to draft a good PF. Kwame was and is still developing...Caron is just another jumpshooting player..



yeah, i understand the situation...it's a hard to draft a good player at any position...

caron is just another jumpshooting player??? 21ppg/8rpg/4apg/2.1spg/48%fg/88%ft...i think it is safe to say that butler is most definitely *NOT* "just another jumpshooting player"...

positional scarcity can justify a lot of trades, but butler for kwame is not one that can be justified, as the talent gap is much too great...


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

SoCalfan21 said:


> Caron is just another jumpshooting player..


k..


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## onelakerfan (Nov 11, 2004)

bootstrenf said:


> so kwame is a good pf???
> 
> caron is an excellent sf, whereas kwame is mediocre at best...


as soon as you tell and show me that CB can guard dunkin, shaq, KG, YAo and all the other centers and PFs out ther i would say that was a bad trade. we have 1 great sf/pf LO and good SF walton (well ok as far as D). but what we needed and i wold say every team needs an interior defender, who can guard the paint. K. brown might not have been the best choice but i would have traded CB for any good Center or PF defender, also teams that are run and gun, the players that might not be good in a half court offence usually shine


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> There is some good discussion on this thread, but let's try to simplify things a bit.
> 
> Was Caron Butler for Kwame Brown a crappy trade? The answer is without question, YES. We absolutely positively needed a bigman at the time. But under no circumstances does that justify making a 1 for 1 trade with such a significant talent drop off. Don't give me the bigs are more valuable than guards/swingmen garbage. If that's the case, let's trade Odom for Nazr Mohammed. Trading Caron Butler was the right decision because of the thin frontline and glut of small forwards. Trading him for Kwame Brown was not anyway you slice it. It's similar to the Shaq deal. IMO, he needed to be traded, just not for Grant's huge contract and players who were not even borderline all-stars at the time(Western Conference). Obviously the best thing to do is forget about the past and focus on the success of this current team even if it would be more successful with Caron(it would).
> 
> Just to throw this in, I can't let the Lakers record allow me to believe that Mitch is doing a good job. He's been raped in three trades. The Celtics fiasco was obsurd. They just happen to strike bronze with a filler, Chris Mihm. He somewhat redeemed himself with the Mo Evans trade, despite the fact that Dumars approached Mitch about it. Our current success is a huge credit to Phil, not the front office.


Chris Mihm was not filler, he was the focal point. The Lakers were looking at him as a FA.

Certainly neither Atkins or Jumaine were ever focal points in anything.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

SoCalfan21 said:


> Why dont u fully read this...he said it hard to draft a good PF. Kwame was and is still developing...Caron is just another jumpshooting player..


It's harder to find a star SF than a mediocre PF.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Chris Mihm was not filler, he was the focal point. The Lakers were looking at him as a FA.
> 
> Certainly neither Atkins or Jumaine were ever focal points in anything.


Marcus Banks was the focal point IMO. He was a 2nd year PG(lottery pick the year before). Suggesting that Mihm was a filler is probably a stretch. It is still a blunder that Mitch made the deal to replace Banks with JJ if Payton refused to show for a physical. And this is all aside from the point of your thread. I just brought it up since the Caron deal can be grouped with the other bad deals in the post-Shaq era. Thanks to Phil, Kobe, etc., the Lakers have overcome front office mistakes.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> I just brought it up since the Caron deal can be grouped with the other bad deals in the post-Shaq era. Thanks to Phil, Kobe, etc., the Lakers have overcome front office mistakes.


I can't say I agree with you on this one, BH. The _Front Office_ fixed *their own* mistakes. The Lakers' management drafted Bynum, farmer, Ronny and snabbed Evans from detroit. Very good job in my opinion. As for the caron trade being a bad deal; yes it is for money sake - we all know that 9 million is too much for Kwame. But bad deals does not mean their bad decisions most of the time especaily if there's no other option.

*Here's my list of Bad 'Decisions' since shaq left (in Chronicall order):*
1. Letting Banks stay in Boston (He would have replaced Sasha and soon Smush)
4. Signing Aaron Mckie (worthless)

*List of Decisions that had a purpose but turned out to be bad in the future:*
1. Signing Rudy T. (Good at first but it was to much pressure for him)
2. Waiving Brian Grant (would have been a very good trade option this year)
*3. signing Vlade Radmon for 5 years(though he still has time to step up)*

*List of Decisions that were good or later on turned out to be good from the front office:*
1. trading Shaq for Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Brian Grant, and a first round pick (They get rid of a problem Shaq and get Odom)
2. Resigning Kobe (nuff said)
3. Trading Gary Payton and Rick fox for Chucky Atkins, Chris Mihm, and Jermaine Jones (they get Atkins that would be used later and Chris Mihm)
4. Signing Phil Jackson (nuff said)
5. Drafting Ronny Turiaf (expanding their bench)
6. Trading Caron Butler and Atkins for Kwame and Laron Profit (expanding their front court and bench; plus dumping a SF of which they had alot of at the time)
7. paid for Ronny's surgery (avoided losing Ronny through health)
8. Signing Smush Parker! (solved their point guard problem after trading Atkins)
10. Signing Ronny Turiaf (avoided losing Ronny to the Euro League)
_11. Drafting Andrew Bynum_ (completeing the front court and planning for the future)
12. Drafting Jordan Farmer from miami's first round pick(completing the back court and planning for the future)
13. Trade second round pick for Mo. Evans (complete their bench and adding athleticism)
The next good decision will probably be the Lakers resigning Luke Walton.

the rest of the offseason moves (good and bad) not mentioned had no positive or negative effect on the progress of the team.

The Lakers' Front Office scared some fans in the beginning but through opportunity and luck they're were able to build a good team so If some fans are still complaining then shame on them. MAJOR PROPS TO MITCH!:clap:


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

The One said:


> I can't say I agree with you on this one, BH. The _Front Office_ fixed *their own* mistakes. The Lakers' management drafted Bynum, farmer, Ronny and snabbed Evans from detroit. Very good job in my opinion. As for the caron trade being a bad deal; yes it is for money sake - we all know that 9 million is too much for Kwame. But bad deals does not mean their bad decisions most of the time especaily if there's no other option.
> 
> *Here's my list of Bad 'Decisions' since shaq left (in Chronicall order):*
> 1. Letting Banks stay in Boston (He would have replaced Sasha and soon Smush)
> ...


Just to be clear, I am optimistic towards this team. I have stated on NBA General that I believe the Lakers are contenders this season(with much ridicule from others). This team is good shape. However, take away subpar front office moves and LA is much further advanced. Is every front office perfect? NO. But there is a difference in missing "steals" like Ginobili, Parker, Arenas, etc. and just making plainly dumb moves. For discussion sake, here's my response to your list of the good.

1. This was not a good trade. Shaq was worth way more than Odom, Butler, Grant, and a late 1st rounder. Nash could have been a Laker. Since Jerry Buss wanted to rekindle showtime, why not get the *closest* player to Magic at this point in time. But forget who the Lakers could've had. The bad decision was rushing the trade which in turn diminished returns. Taking on Grant's horrible contract and inneffectiveness was downright terrible. The best C in a long damn time is traded for useless a cap-killer, Brian Grant and two non All-Stars in Odom and Butler. Remember, Lamar was extremely inconsistent because of his then inability to be effective without controlling the ball. In Miami, this was a problem when Wade began to emerge. This was a huge problem with Kobe. Without Phil Jackson, Odom does not blossom. Caron Butler was a HUGE question mark coming off of knee surgery. A good young talent though. In trading Shaq for this package, the Lakers get an ultra-thin frontline and not even close to equal value. I will not say it has worked at because so far the Heat have a championship and the Lakers have accomplished a seven seed playoff berth. Being a contender at the moment is a testament to Phil Jackson's ability to squeeze every little bit out of talent and usefulness from every player. Again, trading Shaq was the right decision. The package was inadaquete.

2. Come on... 

3. Mihm was a positive, yes. But the Banks debacle was inexcusable for any GM that has ever graced the NBA (yes, even Layden). Nearly everyone on this board cursed Chucky Atkins to no end. His defense was beyond terrible to the point that we thought Smush was All-NBA defense compared to him. And who can forget his "Kobe is the GM" comment. Then he complains about instilling the triangle and uses that as blame for the poor finish when in reality, the Lakers offense was just as efficient. The problem was some of the worst defense in the modern day era of the game. A crappy role player STARTING at PG who is a primadonna and cancer. Just what this team needed. And JUMAINE Jones was so valuable, that Phil ordered him shipped off immediately.

4. Obvious. Without Phil, the Lakers do not recuperate for a long time from the damage of the bad trades. Mediocrity. 

5. Damn good pick, no doubt. 

6. I already went over this garbage trade. We'll just have to agree to disagree. By a lot of small forwards at the time, you mean Caron, Lamar, Devean, Luke, and Jumaine. It shows now that Lamar can hold his own at PF under Phil. Devean and Jumaine are long gone. Luke vs. Caron? Come on... There is no possible way that we could not have gotten a better player than Kwame Brown for Caron Butler. The "numbers don't tell the whole story" argument just doesn't hold up here. The talent and skill level between the two is not even close. Again, why not trade Odom for Nazr Mohammed since trading a great swingman for a big equals everything out.

7. We're talking about front office moves here. You can't throw in the goodwill of the organization to expand your list. Save the good Samaritan stories for another discussion, because it just doesn't apply here.

8. Finding Smush Parker was finding the very little diamond in the rough. Under no circumstances did it SOLVE the PG problem. Ideally, he would make a great backup to Kobe if the Lakers choose to retain him. Also, look at Smush's career path. Several stops, yet unable to retain even a 12th man spot. Suddenly, he comes to play in the triangle (which absolutely does not suit his game) and his able to start (albeit not at a starter's level). Who should the credit go to here? The coaching staff made do with the card deal and Smush worked hard.

9. You skipped this one. Expanding your list yet again? :rofl: J/K

10. This was a no-brainer and took surprisingly long to get done.

11. No argument from me on this deal. Although it's been widely reported that Mitch wanted Sean May. Ugggghhh...

12. Yessir. Best PG available at the one position the Lakers needed.

13. Good deal. Thankfully, Dumars approached Mitch with it.

Again, I am a Lakers fan. Not trying to run down the players that I root for, I just really disagree with a lot of what you said. No problem in that. To say that the moves have not affected the progress of the team is shortsighted. Add Caron Butler to this team with a healthy Mihm at C (Yes, he was healthy at the time of the Caron/Kwame trade), you're looking at a much better team. A bonafide contender. Frontcourt wise, it would not be much of a dropoff since Mihm was a much more consistent player than Kwame, especially offensively. Mihm was a better help-defender, although not as strong as a strictly low post-defender as Kwame. Give Chris more time with Phil and I think he becomes a better version of Longley. Also, not making the deal wouldn't make the Lakers any less deep in the frontcourt since Mihm and Kwame rarely were healthy at the same time. When they were, Kwame completely sucked at PF and backing up Mihm. Quite obviously, he has improved since then. Please don't shame me for stating that the Lakers could be even better omitting senseless deals of the past. However, as you mentioned Kupchak and crew is beginning to redeem themselves through good picks and a great trade for Evans. I just hope it continues to the point where the Lakers add yet another championship trophy. It's been too long already hasn't it?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Signing Shammond to gauranteed money needs to be put on the list of bad moves.

In the end I think Mitch is a conservative GM that doesn't make too many bad moves but doesn't roll the dice on potential good ones. The Caron for Kwame trade was the biggest gamble he took and it flopped. His use of the MLE in the past on dependable vets like Vlade and McKie that craped out is exhibit A to that.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> The Caron for Kwame trade was the biggest gamble he took and it flopped.


The Lakers WOULD HAVE NOT MADE THE PLAYOFFS LAST YEAR WITHOUT KWAME!!!! Do everybody forget that Mihm got injured and Kwame stepped up? In a Head to head match, yes Caron is the way better player but that does not mean Kwame has no worth to the team. Everybody is looking for Double Doubles, stats, and then forgeting what he does well and why he WILL be starting at some point when he comes back. In fact I quite sure he thinking of a way to start both Kwame and Bynum so that Nothing suffers on defense. Just wait when he comes back on the road trip. THE LAKERS WILL GO 7-1 (or 6-2).


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

The One said:


> The Lakers WOULD HAVE NOT MADE THE PLAYOFFS LAST YEAR WITHOUT KWAME!!!! Do everybody forget that Mihm got injured and Kwame stepped up?.


Im with you on this one brah, people seem to forget this. Kwame was monumental with LA's success last year, dude averaged 13 and 9 in a stretch of 18 games, helping us with a 12-6 record. Mihm was starting to have a very solid season, then he comes down against Seattle. Majority thought without an inside presence, the Lakers were done, but bam, Kwame stepped up out of nowhere and helped LA lock a playoff spot.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Which is true, but does not justify the trade of Caron for Kwame. That's the point of the thread(I think).


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Well yeah, I never really liked the trade at that time, there are more logical deals that could be had. But some people just hates Kwame with passion in this board or and treats him as if he's nothing but garbage, to me personally thats a bit of a reach.


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