# GT: Game 27 - Clippers vs Kings



## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

*







vs








Los Angeles Clippers(16-10) vs Sacramento Kings(10-16)

Date: Tuesday, December 27th
Time: 7:30 PM PST; 10:30 PM EST
Los Angeles Media: FSN West 2; KTLK AM 1150
National Media: NBA-League Pass
Clippers Last Game: 97-88 Twin Tower Dominance over Charlotte

Clippers Probable Starting 5:
PG: Shaun Livingston 8 PPG/6.4 APG/3.6 RPG/1.8 Steals
SG: Sam Cassell 16.2 PPG/7 APG/4.4 RPG
SF: Cuttino Mobley 15.3 PPG/5 RPG/2.9 APG
PF: Elton Brand 25.5 PPG/11 RPG/2.6 APG/2.5 Blocks
CE: Chris Kaman 8.9 PPG/8.5 RPG/.7 APG/1.65 Blocks

Kings Probable Starting 5:
PG: Mike Bibby 19 PPG/4.7 APG/2.9 RPG
SG: Bonzi Wells 15.1 PPG/7.6 RPG/3.2 APG/1.76 Steals
SF: Peja Stojakavic 17 PPG/4.5 RPG/2.4 APG
PF: Shareef Abdur-Rahim 16.5 PPG/6.5 RPG/3.3 APG
CE: Brad Miller 13.3 PPG/7.7 RPG/6 APG/1.03 SPG

Key Matchup:







vs









Kaman is coming off a big career night grabbing 22 rebounds and scoring 22 points against the Bobcats very thin front line. Now Kaman has a chance to go up against another pretty thin starting front line of Shareef and Brad Miller, although Brad Miller is possibly the best play making center in the entire NBA. Miller also likes to get into the passing lanes, so when Miller does that, Kaman needs to be aware and cut his way to the basket and finish his shot.

Q's Quote:
"Clippers are coming off a huge victory over the Bobcats to end a small 3 game east coast road trip and now have 9 of 11 at home in the Staples Center. Clippers have won 10 of 12 home games so far on the season(third best in the NBA)and are hoping to add to that and there lead in the Pacific Division. A win vs the Kings will assure the Clippers another advantage to add to the standings over the teams behind them in the division as they will hold the tie breaker so far over all four teams 1-0. A pretty important game for this Clippers squad as they need all the wins possible without slasher Corey Maggette being available."

Q's Prediction: Clippers win 99-98
Q's Prediction Record: 19-5-2*​


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Who is going to guard Peja? Livingston i presume. (no pun intended). That means cassell on bibby (uh oh), and mobley on bonzi. 

As far as the front court, i think that on paper this might be the most evenly (not talent wise) matched matchup the clippers will have. kaman and brad miller have similar sizes and similar games. Shareer might be one of the faster PF's who actually has a chance to keep up with brand. 

That being said, who knows if ross is going to play or not? If not, we NEED someone to step up from the bench. Last game korolev was the ONLY player to score off of the bench. I guarantee we will need more than 7 poitns from korolev off of the bench to win agasint the kings.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

yamaneko said:


> Who is going to guard Peja? Livingston i presume. (no pun intended). That means cassell on bibby (uh oh), and mobley on bonzi.
> 
> As far as the front court, i think that on paper this might be the most evenly (not talent wise) matched matchup the clippers will have. kaman and brad miller have similar sizes and similar games. Shareer might be one of the faster PF's who actually has a chance to keep up with brand.
> 
> That being said, who knows if ross is going to play or not? If not, we NEED someone to step up from the bench. Last game korolev was the ONLY player to score off of the bench. I guarantee we will need more than 7 poitns from korolev off of the bench to win agasint the kings.


 bringing Korolev in, you have to wonder if Dunleavy MIGHT actually think about starting him @ SF due to his size in an attempt to stop Peja since Yaroslav was said to be a defender and possibly bring Sam/Cat/Shaun off the bench for a spark. With Dunleavy, you never know what he'l; ever do.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

dunleavvy isnt the kind though to hand over the keys to someone after one good game. Otherwise singleton would have been starting after his double double, wilcox would have been starting after his, mccarty, etc. etc. 

But like you say, you never know with dunleavvy. 

Wonder if eisleys lack of playing time recently means he is on the way out. Hope his contract wasnt guaranteed.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

I believe both Wells and Peja are out for this game. Wells is definetly out (several weeks) and Peja was said to be out at least a week on the 21 so going by that he should miss this game.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Weasel said:


> I believe both Wells and Peja are out for this game. Wells is definetly out (several weeks) and Peja was said to be out at least a week on the 21 so going by that he should miss this game.


 oh, I mustv'e missed that, but even without Wells and Peja, I'm still worried about both Mike Bibbby and Brad Miller, I might change my prediction and make it a 5/6 point win, but these are the Kings who beat the Clips 4 times in the Clutch last year


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

qrich1fan said:


> oh, I mustv'e missed that, but even without Wells and Peja, I'm still worried about both Mike Bibbby and Brad Miller, I might change my prediction and make it a 5/6 point win, but these are the Kings who beat the Clips 4 times in the Clutch last year



Bonzi has been the MVP for the Kings this season and is carrying the team sometimes. Peja though not doing great is still deadly. But with both out and the Clippers playing at home the Clippers should take this game with ease.


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## RhettO (May 15, 2003)

I predicted a four game winning streak after the Pacers loss and I'm sticking to it. At home, Clippers win 104-96.


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## ClipOre4Life (Oct 25, 2005)

You also forget that we're looking for players. By the Sacramento game we could have anyone from Ron Artest to Glenn Robinson on our roster.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Forgot to mention that the Kings are playing the Blazers in Portland the day before so they should be plenty tired especially without 2 of their starters.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Bet On The GameHere


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

ClipOre4Life said:


> You also forget that we're looking for players. By the Sacramento game we could have anyone from Ron Artest to Glenn Robinson on our roster.


 8 n a half hours from game time and no move made YET @ least, just have to wait and see


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

SAR will also miss the game

Cheer = Good, Jeer = Bad 

Cat gets a JEER from Smith

Kaman gets a CHEER from Pooh

Cassell gets a CHEER from Smith

Brand gets a CHEER from Pooh

Wilcox gets a JEER from Smith

McCarty gets a JEER from Smith


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

so no wells, peja, or SAR?


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Nope

Clippers struggling so far trailing 10-16

Korolev is in the game!


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Disgusting First half, Korolev one shot and a bucket with 3 fouls.


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## joser (Nov 29, 2005)

damn we're down by 15 points :curse:


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

pathetic first half. down by 17 at one point. Even if they play a little better in the second, they are going to get blown out.

And this kings team is pretty terrible. Bibby miller and thats it. Kaman and brand are doing ok and thats it. I doubt wilcox will get back into the game after a dismal first half performance. Korolev started out ok, and stinking livingston missed him on what would have been a momentum changing alley oop.


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

WOW!!!! I was going to come in here to complain about Wilcox, but then I thought ... why single HIM out. NO ONE is doing anything except Brand and Korolev, and maybe Kaman who can't guard Brad but is active.

Weren't we identified as a "defensive" team? Well ... I haven't seen any defense. What in the hell has happened.

I do want to give Dunleavy credit (since I've been really hard on him), he DID try to play our bench --- but unfortunately, there was nothing there.

I wonder if Cassell's hip (isn't that the injury from last year) bothering him?

I still have no real explanation for Mobley's inability to put the ball in the basket.

WOW!!!!


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

imo Mobley's posting up attempts have really slowed the pace of the game down


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

*Ot: Question ...*

In the Clippers' theme music/video, there is a guy in the stands in a red Clipper jersey with his buddy. He is dancing with his hands and he is focused on his hand motion.

One of our posters came here and said that was him dancing. Do anyone remember what that was, and is he still posting?

Just curious because everything I see it, I think of him posting here.


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

Yeah, but Mobley only did that about 2/3 times. We were AWFUL THE ENTIRE FIRST HALF. I wouldn't single him out either.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

wow, a quick 4-0 game . . let's do this!


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: Ot: Question ...*

a chance to cut it down to 9 . . Kings get it and make 

then Mobley misses :sigh:


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

Cassell misses, Mobley misses --- Brand makes. 

Where would we be without Elton?


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Dynasty Raider said:


> Cassell misses, Mobley misses --- Brand makes.
> 
> Where would we be without Elton?


 Stuck with Tyson Chandler?


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## clips_r_teh_wieners (Nov 4, 2005)

I Hate U Sam Cassell. I Hate U. Stop Freakin Shooting U Dumb Moron


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## joser (Nov 29, 2005)

is sam hurt or something be he has been playing bad for 2 weeks now.


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

Did they discuss STOPPING BRAD MILLER at all during the half??? :curse: 

This game is over for us. (THOUGHT: Would Ewing play better with Shaun than Sam? Maybe Sam needs to be the point and being the SG takes him away from his game. In other words, maybe Sam is not versatile.) Hell, I don't know.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

We need to keep feeding the post and stop clanking jumpers


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

qrich1fan said:


> Stuck with Tyson Chandler?


I shutter/shudder the thought!! (That's suppose to be some old adage; not quite sure I got it right.)


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

give the ball to Kaman . .he has 14 pts and 11 boards damnit . . our back court stinks play Korolev!


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

I see it now

Ewing/Singleton/Korolev/Napos;Dong/Wilcox will finish off the embaressment


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

We're guarding no one, absolutely no one is being guarded.

Who is suppose to be on Bibby? Are there any assignments?


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## joser (Nov 29, 2005)

this is ugly, we need a miracle


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

oh wow, like i said, Napos;Dong is in


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## clips_r_teh_wieners (Nov 4, 2005)

cassell is just flat out pathetic tonite. instead of guarding bibby, he decides to conserve his energy to take more jump shots, o btw which he's 1 for 12 in that category tonite. 

brand should slap the **** out of him and demand the ball

or dunleavy should jsut take him out of the game for the rest of the nite. bench taht ugly ***


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

Most fun I've had since the game started ...

Did you all see the Clipper commercial with the Barber on the 24 second clock, shaving his customer to beat the clock before the game start? Then the promo says, "get on the Clippers time".

You have to see how the Barber was shaving the guy to appreciate it.

This game is over ; I'm out.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Eisley fits right into this game by airballing

Korolev should be in, he was doing a nice job on the defensive end despite his rookie fouls


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

line up Clips should have right now

PG: Livingston
SG: Ewing
SF: Singleton
PF: Korolev
CE: Brand


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Mobley hits a shot . . 

Kings miss but the ball is out on the CLips


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Mobley's startin to feel it . . now play defense?


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

ok Kings are starting to miss . . if only we can score . . and Mobley bricks


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

we need Ron Artest . . . . .


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Napos;Dong vs Miller on a jump ball . . interesting


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Lawler and Smith talking about making a move and Rodney White's name pops up . . surpirse surprise . . Napos;Dong is playing good


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## clips_r_teh_wieners (Nov 4, 2005)

qrich1fan said:


> we need Ron Artest . . . . .


maggette for artest. i cant even believe why the hell anyone would hesitate to do that


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Lawler really got into that shot by Napos;Dong, but of course non-existent defense allows Kings to score


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

and Clips turn it over . . . . what an XMas present for the Kings


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## joser (Nov 29, 2005)

if the clippers stays like this...good bye play offs


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

what a surprise, Napos;Dong getting rook fouls called


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

wow Kings missa FT? now a miracle is needed

KOROLEV! hits it again and got fouled . . no surprise it wasn't called


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Napos;Dong makes a rook mistake and offensive intereference called


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## clips_r_teh_wieners (Nov 4, 2005)

im done for tonite. utterly pathetic performance. management better pull taht trigger on that artest deal. the latest offer that indiana would consider is wilcox and rebraca. at this point, hell yes. bench maggette when he comes back. absolutely unrelialbe


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Dun should have Elton in, never know what could happen


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Napos;Dong cuts the lead to 18 lol


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Miller airballs a 3 but N'Dong misses on the other end . . . . 

Garcia airballs and a loose ball foul on Sam . . . . . I for one think we have a chance to win but Brand NEEDS to be in

Right as I type that he checks in


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Brad Miller is AMAZING


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

what a surprise? another brick


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

no defense, no interior presence, no rebounding, no heart

8:33 to go and down by 22 . . . a huge miracle is needed


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

now, can u Korolev haters shut the f' up . . he's been playin f'n well


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

This game is eerily resembling the games we played after Kandi sabotaged our run for the Playoffs because he was unhappy about the Clippers not giving him a contract during the season.

Just wondering ... could all of the trade talk have affected the lockeroom? No one knows whether or not they will be traded so the motivation of THIS team making the drive has been tempered?

This is just too ugly. There is no effort, they play 'unmotivated'; has nothing to do with their skills.

Strange ...


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

why is Lawler celebrating about a worthless dunj?


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## clips_r_teh_wieners (Nov 4, 2005)

qrich1fan said:


> no defense, no interior presence, no rebounding, no heart
> 
> 8:33 to go and down by 22 . . . a huge miracle is needed


i just have to comment on ur loyalty and willingness to stick with the team when they're down. props to u.

but a blow out at home is inexcusable no matter wat. something needs to change. im starting to believe that ron artest deal needs to happen. we have major problems with our defense. i really dont want to give up maggette, but that deal needs to happen somehow


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Brand cuts the lead within 18! and fans are into it

but Miller says STFU!


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Livingston is tripped and truth be told, i thought he would've gotten hurt


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Korolev drives and misses . . . don't forget this kid's barely 18


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Livingston draws a foul, but thats too little to late


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Cassell for Al Harrington

Cuttino Mobley, Chris Wilcox, Zeljko Rebraca for Ron Artest, Anthony Johnson

DC:
CE: Kaman/N'Dong
PF: Brand/Harrington
SF: Artest/Singleton
SG: Maggette/Ross
PG: Livingston/Johnson


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Singleton draws a foul . . . now why doesn't Dunleavy play him along side Livingston/Korolev/Wilcox and Brand?


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Livvy hits . . . . now unless everyone on the Kings roster gets two techs and everyone gets ejected, game's over!


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Cassell + Mobley + Wilcox to Indy for Ron Artest + Stephen Jackson + Anthony Johnson


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Livingston is struggling as is everyone else . . even though eh has 6/7/6


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

qrich1fan said:


> Cassell for Al Harrington
> 
> Cuttino Mobley, Chris Wilcox, Zeljko Rebraca for Ron Artest, Anthony Johnson
> 
> ...



Clippers make it happen! :biggrin:


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> Clippers make it happen! :biggrin:


 it might be just me, but i really like that roster more thent he current one providing Shaun can stay healthy


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

hello 2001-2004 clippers. welcome back. missed you.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

qrich1fan said:


> it might be just me, but i really like that roster more thent he current one providing Shaun can stay healthy



Oh I wasn't being sarcastic, i'd do that in a second.. That roster would be one of the best defensive teams in the NBA in my opinion.. It would be like a west coast version of the Pistons (three years ago or so).


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Anyone else still think we couldnt use an artest? Heck, forget the future, if we dont move some players to get a near 20 point scorer now, we will have no chance of top 6 seed in the west without maggs for 4 weeks and ross for who knows how long.

Rebraca isnt much of a loss anymore because brand and kaman are playing out of their minds. We need a back court scoring option so that cassell and mobley dont think they have to shoot every time. We also need someone who can play defense.

Livingston could have had 18 poitns tonight. He didnt look enough for his shot, and didnt finish his layups. 

NDong had an incredible drive. Id keep him on the roster, especially with wilcox either going to be traded, or walking at the end of the year.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

as much as I dislike Artest, we need him, and we need him NOW!

Mobley + Wilcox + 1st + Ewing for Sarunas + Artest + Harrison

Sarunas is playin much better then everyone we pretty much give up!

CE: Kaman/Rebraca/N'Dong
PF: Brand/Harrison/Singleton
SF: Artest/Korolev/McCarty
SG: Maggette**/Sarunas/Ross**
PG: Cassell/Livingston/Eisley**

** = Inactive List


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## ClipOre4Life (Oct 25, 2005)

We need Artest. I don't care if we give up Maggz for him because at some point this organization has to try to win now. Wilcox should go to the Nets for Cliffy and Wright and be done with it.


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## sertorius (Sep 24, 2005)

What a stinking, heaping, steaming pile of dung of a game! Un-f'ing-believable! Could someone other than Elton Brand or Chris Kaman please start showing up to play for this team! Anyone! I mean ANYONE! 

Look, I don't mind losing. It's a part of any sport, just as it is a part of life, but can the team at least try to win. Is that really that much to ask? Try. Just, I don't know, box out, jump to get a rebound, attack the rim with confidence, etc. You know, play basketball.

By the way, I think we've all been wrong to think we need a small forward until Corey heals. Turns out what we really need is a shooting guard, and a point guard. You know, I thought Marko Jaric used to stink it up from time to time, but what Cassell has done these last few weeks is even worse. And speaking of Cassell, can someone on the coaching staff please tell him: STOP SHOOTING! Run the offense, and GET THE BALL TO BRAND! 

And speaking of the team's big men, can the rest of the fans finally admit that Chris Wilcox has no worth to this team whatsoever? The guy is 6'11", a great leaper, and somehow had only 2 rebounds in 11 minutes, while Singleton had 4 in a little over 5 minutes. You know, if Indiana was seriously considering taking Wilcox in any trade for Artest this should be enough for them to scrap that deal, because at this point I don't think you could get even second round draft picks for Wilcox. What an unbelievable waste of talent this guy is. Astounding.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Melvin Ely > Chris Wilcox

I remember people saying I was wrong, but that's actually the truth


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## ClipOre4Life (Oct 25, 2005)

Wilcox has a lot of value as a tradeable asset.


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## sertorius (Sep 24, 2005)

qrich1fan said:


> Melvin Ely > Chris Wilcox
> 
> I remember people saying I was wrong, but that's actually the truth



He's certainly playing better than Wilcox right now. I think people just get seduced by Wilcox's athleticism, and somehow manage to ignore that the guy has zero work ethic when it comes to anything other than apparently lifting weights, or practicing staring at the camera after a dunk.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

qrich1fan said:


> Mobley + Wilcox + 1st + Ewing for Sarunas + Artest + Harrison


Get serious.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

qrich1fan said:


> Melvin Ely > Chris Wilcox


Ely actually gets to play, if that were the case, it would have been Wilcox shipped to Charlotte 2 years ago, not Ely.


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## sertorius (Sep 24, 2005)

arenas809 said:


> Ely actually gets to play, if that were the case, it would have been Wilcox shipped to Charlotte 2 years ago, not Ely.



This is the long held belief among Clipper fans: IF Wilcox got more time, he'd be more effective. Just to repeat, Wilcox, a 6'11" forward, with godly jumping ability, and what is a powerful body got only TWO rebounds in nearly 11 minutes worth of play. There is no excuse for that. None. You want more playing time, rebound at a rate better than 1 board per 5 minutes and 30 seconds.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

sertorius said:


> This is the long held belief among Clipper fans: IF Wilcox got more time, he'd be more effective. Just to repeat, Wilcox, a 6'11" forward, with godly jumping ability, and what is a powerful body got only TWO rebounds in nearly 11 minutes worth of play. There is no excuse for that. None. You want more playing time, rebound at a rate better than 1 board per 5 minutes and 30 seconds.


Honestly, I don't really care if Wilcox doesn't get 20 boards a game, especially when we got Brand next to him, and you conveniently ignored the 10 points in 10 minutes. I know what Wilcox can do when given extended minutes (15 and 7), I'm going off proof, not just speculation. Most games we give Kaman 30 minutes to go out there and do jack, so you're gona tell me we can't give Chris 30 minutes to see if he could produce? 

If you benched players just off rebounding numbers, then I guess these bigs shouldn't be playing...

Channing Frye
Eddy Curry
Primoz Brezec
Nenad Krstic
Theo Ratliff
Mark Blount (someone on another Clips board actually made a thread saying we should trade for this bum)
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Michael Sweetney
Kenyon Martin

So with the numbers these guys put up (on the boards), if they were on our team we would bench them?

No, so that argument needs to go.


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## jcwla (Jul 3, 2005)

My thoughts on the game are at http://spaces.msn.com/members/jcwla17

If nothing is done to upgrade the team and they come with this kind of effort during this soft stretch of schedule, the season's going to implode within two to three weeks. God willing that doesn't happen, but based on tonight the potential is there.


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## ClipOre4Life (Oct 25, 2005)

We better trade Wilcox quick.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Why give wilcox 30 a night when he never has been consistent in his career? A 3 game stretch here, a 5 game stretch, 15 minutes here, 15 minutes there. Kaman, even on off nights, always at least hustles and puts good defense as dunleavvy said to the press yesterday. You cant say the same about wilcox. He will hustle a couple of plays, then not th eother times. Doesnt matter if you give him 30 minutes or not. If youre in 5 minutes, you need to hustle on defense, and rebound, to get into dunleavvys big man rotation. Heck, even boniface outplayed wilcox tonight, thats terrible. Theres no reason to give wilcox 30 minutes a game when kaman averages what he does.


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## sertorius (Sep 24, 2005)

arenas809 said:


> and you conveniently ignored the 10 points in 10 minutes.


No, I didn't conveniently ignore them, I just remembered that 6 if not 8 of those came in garbage time, when it had no real bearing on the game. At which time by the way, he hit ALL of his free throws, yet early in the game when it mattered, he missed two in a row, and a chance to cut the kings' lead.



arenas809 said:


> I know what Wilcox can do when given extended minutes (15 and 7), I'm going off proof, not just speculation.


Ah yes, those mythical 15 games at the begining of last season. Admittedly, the team was winning at that time, but I'd be willing to bet that might've had just a little something to do with Bobby Simmons' break out year.



arenas809 said:


> Most games we give Kaman 30 minutes to go out there and do jack****, so you're gona tell me we can't give Chris 30 minutes to see if he could produce?


Seriously, what do you have against Kaman? It seems like it doesn't matter what the guy does, you are bound or determined not to like him. Over the last 8 games or so he has averaged a double-double (as pointed out by Mike Smith during the game), yet you steadfastedly continue to belittle what he's doing. 



arenas809 said:


> If you benched players just off rebounding numbers, then I guess these bigs shouldn't be playing...
> 
> Channing Frye
> Eddy Curry
> ...


Frye is a rookie. Curry is worthless on defense. How much did Brezec help to offset Kaman's 22 boards on that last game? Krstic is good offensively, but he is also not the defensive liability Wilcox is. Isn't his rebounding part of the reason Ratliff is only playing 21.5 minutes per game? Whoever said the Clippers should trade for Blount must be smoking some good stuff. Abdur-Rahim is a more complete player than Wilcox, so sorry, your comparison is not a valid one as far as I'm concerned. Sweetney is only getting 22 minutes worth of play as the "big guy" on a small bulls team, so that should tell you what Skiles thinks of his prowess. As for Kenyon Martin, he has been overrated for years just because he got to play with Jason Kidd (if you wanna get an idea of who Kenyon Martin really is, just go back and watch him disappear in Tim Duncan's shadow during those Finals 3 years ago).

Look, if you really like Wilcox that much, it's cool, we all have our favorite players. But let's call a spade a spade: the guy is not some kind of great player who is a CONSTANT, difference maker who somehow deserves starter minutes on THIS team. Who knows, maybe on another team, with someone willing to let him do nothing but score he could be great, but within this team, I believe you have to rebound and play defense in order to get more playing time, AND you have to understand that EB is the first option in the post, no matter how great your dunks look.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Holy crap I just got back from vacation and what do I see on the boxscore? The Clippers getting smashed by the Kings, the Kings who were missing 3 starters, and losing at home. The Clippers need to do something to fill the vacancy they right now.


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## joser (Nov 29, 2005)

qrich1fan said:


> as much as I dislike Artest, we need him, and we need him NOW!
> 
> Mobley + Wilcox + 1st + Ewing for Sarunas + Artest + Harrison
> 
> ...


hmm i like this...


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

sertorius said:


> Frye is a rookie. Curry is worthless on defense. How much did Brezec help to offset Kaman's 22 boards on that last game? Krstic is good offensively, but he is also not the defensive liability Wilcox is. Isn't his rebounding part of the reason Ratliff is only playing 21.5 minutes per game? Whoever said the Clippers should trade for Blount must be smoking some good stuff. Abdur-Rahim is a more complete player than Wilcox, so sorry, your comparison is not a valid one as far as I'm concerned. Sweetney is only getting 22 minutes worth of play as the "big guy" on a small bulls team, so that should tell you what Skiles thinks of his prowess. As for Kenyon Martin, he has been overrated for years just because he got to play with Jason Kidd (if you wanna get an idea of who Kenyon Martin really is, just go back and watch him disappear in Tim Duncan's shadow during those Finals 3 years ago).


The question was would those players be benched on this team, thanks for the diatribe, but you avoided the question.

As far as Wilcox goes, he also had a good period of games the season before last where he got to play because Brand was hurt. I'm not a Wilcox fanboy, this is not pining for Tabuse or Rodney White, the point is Wilcox gets benched because he's not a great rebounder, yet Kaman has got to go out there and suck it up and still play. Kaman's had a few decent games, fine, but was he getting yanked when he was doing nothing, which has been most of the season?

No.


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## sertorius (Sep 24, 2005)

arenas809 said:


> The question was would those players be benched on this team, thanks for the diatribe, but you avoided the question.
> 
> As far as Wilcox goes, he also had a good period of games the season before last where he got to play because Brand was hurt. I'm not a Wilcox fanboy, this is not pining for Tabuse or Rodney White, the point is Wilcox gets benched because he's not a great rebounder, yet Kaman has got to go out there and suck it up and still play. Kaman's had a few decent games, fine, but was he getting yanked when he was doing nothing, which has been most of the season?
> 
> No.



Frye, as a rookie, would get playing time so long as he was doing his job, that is rebounding or playing defense. Curry would get benched as he did under Skiles because he's a rebounding and defensive liability. Ratliff is already getting benched in Portland, so yes, he'd probably get benched here too if he didn't rebound. Blount is not even worth commenting on. Abdur-Rahim would get benched if he wasn't rebounding or taking good shots. Sweetney wouldn't play AT ALL if he didn't rebound. Kenyon Martin is barely playing 26 minutes per game, which is equivalent to getting benched, and that just might be related to his 5.4 rpg. Does that answer your question? 

If you are not a Wilcox fanboy, you sure are a Kaman-hater. Wilcox doesn't get benched just because he's not a great rebounder, he gets benched because he's a liability on defense, and loves to take ill-advised shots. Kaman doesn't get yanked precisely because he is never "doing nothing." Everyone I've ever heard speak to this who is somehow related to the organization (Lee Klein, Mike Smith, Matt Pinto, et al) has echoed the same sentiment: while both Wilcox and Kaman are inconsistent, you can at least count on effort from Kaman, whereas Wilcox seems to disappear for games at a time.

There is no substitute for effort. Not talent, not athleticism, not potential. Chris Wilcox has all those things, yet in four years with the Clippers has done nothing to better himself as a player. The very fact that you refer to "a good period of games" should be a clue to you that he IS NOT consistent. Seriously, what was the last good game he had? Against Houston right, can you point out one before that? If your PF/C is not gonna rebound, play good defense, take good shots, or at least try to do any of those things, then why would you put him in the game, let alone give him extensive minutes?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Curry would be benched here? Please, he's LIGHT YEARS ahead of Kaman...

I guess you missed the game against the Knicks when he tore Kaman up for 24 and 11, Kaman put up 4 and 5 in 38 minutes...

I'm not a Kaman hater, but I'm not going to ride his jock either because YOU want me to after a couple decent games.

The question is what has Kaman done most of the time with extended minutes? Nothing, and a lot of Clips fans have said that, I'm not the only one. but is he yanked? Does he come off the bench a game or 2?

No.

All I'm saying is you can't give a guy like Wilcox 10 mpg, expect him to do the most with that and if he doesn't say he sucks or just bench him...

BTW that Houston game wasn't even 2 weeks ago, so I'm not sure what your point was there, the next game he played 8 minutes, nice reward for a good game 3 nights earlier, anyway...

Most of the time there's a complaint about Wilcox, there's something in there about rebounding, based off stats, here's my argument there...

Kaman plays 30.8 mpg and averages 8.5 rebounds per game, that means he gets a rebound every 3.62 minutes...

Wilcox right plays 13.3 mpg and averages 3.5 rebounds per game, that means he gets a rebound every 3.8 minutes...

Based off that is it unreasonable to say that given the minutes Kaman gets, Wilcox couldn't put up similar numbers?

I don't have to hate on Kaman, because the numbers make my argument for me, Clips fans say he sucks, then he has a 20-20 game against a banged up Bobcats team and he's a star again...

Wilcox sucks, but we got Clips fans starting Ben Gordon for Wilcox threads, Wilcox is the main piece in a deal for Artest? He sucks around here, but his value is that high elsewhere?

I'll end with this, and I'm done with the discussion...

A few of Kaman's games against teams with good bigs have looked like this...

Kaman at Minnesota 5 pts, 4 rebounds, 20 mins
Kaman vs. Milwaukee, 4 pts, 2 rebounds, 22 mins
Kaman at Cleveland, 5 pts, 9 rebounds, 36 minutes
Kaman vs Miami, 9 pts, 4 rebounds, 33 minutes
Kaman vs New York, 4 pts, 5 rebounds, 38 minutes
Kaman vs Houston, 1 pt, 3 rebounds, 24 minutes
Kaman vs New Jersey, 2 pts, 3 rebounds, 24 minutes

You can challenge that with some of his good games, then I can come right back with MORE poor games against teams that don't have good bigs.

Ultimately, it's just my belief that Kaman isn't all that much better than Wilcox, not to a point where he should get 30 minutes per game and Wilcox should get 13 minutes per game.


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## Maxwell48 (Oct 8, 2005)

qrich1fan said:


> as much as I dislike Artest, we need him, and we need him NOW!
> 
> Mobley + Wilcox + 1st + Ewing for Sarunas + Artest + Harrison
> 
> ...


that wpuld be realy nice! not that we would aquire just artest,no we even would aquire sarunas,who can play the point and the 2 and would also be a good teacher for shaun,imagine sam and sarunas teachin shaun :clap: 
and harrison is in m oppinion a quite good center talent


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

arenas809 said:


> Curry would be benched here? Please, he's LIGHT YEARS ahead of Kaman...
> 
> I guess you missed the game against the Knicks when he tore Kaman up for 24 and 11, Kaman put up 4 and 5 in 38 minutes...
> 
> ...


I like when you post.... it saves me time. :biggrin:


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

THE'clip'SHOW said:


> I like when you post.... it saves me time. :biggrin:


Yeah it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Arenas809 turned out to be Lee Klein, an almost evil dose of reality that fans try, but cannot ignore.


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

arenas809 said:


> Curry would be benched here? Please, he's LIGHT YEARS ahead of Kaman...
> 
> I guess you missed the game against the Knicks when he tore Kaman up for 24 and 11, Kaman put up 4 and 5 in 38 minutes...
> 
> ...




Arenas: :worship: 

I have a newfound respect for you. This is an EXCELLENT ARGUMENT. I can't wait to read the rebuttal ...

That is some scary data ... maybe you should send it to Dunleavy, who obviously hasn't seen it. We NEED to have Wilcox atleast :15 to stink up the place or showcase his game. Afterall, the Clippers are an equal opportunity employer, aren't they?

I'm not a stats person, but I can't ignore your argument. Again, :worship:


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## og15 (Dec 18, 2005)

Without Maggette, outside of Brand, we're too much of a jumpshooting team. Cassell and Mobley aren't penetrators, and it brings inconsitency when you have to rely on the outside shot.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

THE'clip'SHOW said:


> I like when you post.... it saves me time. :biggrin:



Ditto. :clap:


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## sertorius (Sep 24, 2005)

Arenas, 

First of all: I don’t want or care if you ride Kaman’s jock. For some reason you’ve gotten it stuck in your head that I’m somehow trying to convert you to a Kaman fan. I DON’T CARE IF YOU LIKE HIM OR NOT, but I am baffled by your continual assertions that he is somehow a scrub. 

For the record, Eddy Curry is such a great player that he is currently averaging a measly 24.1 minutes per game, which is a full .9 minutes per game more than he did under Scott Skiles. He is a defensive liability, and an underachiever. That game where he “tore Kaman” up for a FULL 24 and 11 is clearly not exemplary of who he really is a player, otherwise his averages would be much higher than they are, either now 12.6 ppg/5.9 rpg, or career, 11.9 ppg/4.9 rpg. Now in case you’re unaware of this, the NBA is a game of statistical averages, that is to say, a player’s real worth is not determined by one game where he goes off for 24 and 11 (by the way, if that impressed you so much, why do you consider Kaman’s 22 and 22 game to be so meaningless?), but rather by his cumulative accomplishments throughout a season, hence, it is the players who can CONSISTENTLY perform at a high level who are considered good or star players. Going by that rationale, Kaman’s numbers of 9.1 ppg and 8.6 rpg in merely 6 more minutes of play time than Curry are more significant for the team. IF you need further proof however, go to www.82games.com, and see how while Kaman is on the floor the team is +3.2 points, and -3.4 points when he is off the floor, for a net gain of 6.6 points. Wilcox on the other hand is -3.0 on the floor, and +2.2 off, for a net TEAM LOSS of 5.2 points with Wilcox on the floor. For further comparison by the way, the Knicks are -5.7 points with Curry on the floor, which I’m sure feels great to think about when you consider Isiah Thomas gave him a 42 million dollar contract. 

Your argument/assertion that the main difference between Wilcox and Kaman comes down to .18 minutes more for Wilcox to get a rebound ignores the fact that Chris Wilcox IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL LIABILITY on defense, and the numbers above bear that out. As for my point about the game against Houston, it is this: however long it’s taken for Wilcox to have another good game since, it has been too long. By the way his “reward” for that good game was a lot of good will built up with the fans and the coaching staff, in fact Dunleavy put him early on in that next game against Indiana (halfway through the first quarter, I believe), but his inability to get a rebound caused him to get taken out again, and in fact, had he gotten that rebound after Daniel Ewing’s dunk cut the Pacers’ lead to 4, the Clippers might have won that game, but again, Wilcox forgot to box out, and let a rookie (Granger) get the offensive rebound that led to the final demise of the team in that game.

NO ONE has said that Kaman is a star. NO ONE. We all recognize him for what he is: a hard-working, serviceable center. Nor do the numbers make your argument for you, a player’s worth on the floor is determined by averages, not a few games, otherwise you could look at say Tim Duncan’s recent bad game against New Orleans, and deduce that he is a bad player.

Finally, Wilcox is NOT considered that valuable by Indiana, otherwise they would have accepted him in a trade for Artest by now, they are merely "intrigued" by him, but they are not willing to trade Artest for him, which is why Artest is not likely to end up here.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Agreed. Wilcox doesnt have the effort. Plain and simple. Thats why he doesnt get minutes. And Kaman has not played himself out of a starting role. WHen you average what kaman does, you will remain a starter unless you have someone just heads and shoulders above you. Does kaman have a bad game here and there? Yes, many players do. Can it be said that kaman's bad games cost the clippers from winning? Not really, clippers dont really lose games based on the play of their center, since the center isnt really into the offense. Only way a center in this offense can loose the game for the clippers is if he is absolutely terrible on the boards. SO far, in the clipper losses, kaman cannot be accredited with that. 

Kaman shows improvement in the two categories that dunleavvy wants, blocks and rebounds. Kaman before would get decent rebounding numbers but would fumble away so many. A lot less this year. HEs also averaging almost 2 blocks a game which is darn good when one of the league leaders is your teammate in the front court. 

Kaman is about 10% points higher on free throws than wilcox. Wilcox, in his ONLY start to finish "great" game of the year, where some were calling all star quality, had 11 points and 13 rebounds. But also was 1 out of 6 at the line. Kaman has had multiple great games this years, much better than that. 

But as others said, regardless of minutes, wilcox just sometimes disappears as far as effort goes. You can be in the game 1 minute and see that. and if he continues to do that dunleavvy will yank him out of the game. Dunleavvy doesnt expect perfection. He realizes kaman will and does make mistakes. But more than not he will stick with him because kaman gives 100% and is always active on defense. Wilcox doesnt always give 100%, and is rarely very active on defense. 

Even boniface was rewarded over wilcox last night because boniface and 205lbs of him was more active on offense and defense than wilcox was. 

Thers no way you bench a guy that for the entire month of december has averaged a double double, unless the player is Shaq coming off of injury or something.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

by the way setorius, arenas might come back with your PER numbers by saying that its because kaman plays with the starters. But that argument doesnt always work. First off, it means that hes playing agasint the other team's second team, so the numbers still should be the same, not to mention that with rebraca out, wilcox and brand are out there together a lot too, along with the other starters who get lots of minutes.


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## sertorius (Sep 24, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> by the way setorius, arenas might come back with your PER numbers by saying that its because kaman plays with the starters. But that argument doesnt always work. First off, it means that hes playing agasint the other team's second team, so the numbers still should be the same, not to mention that with rebraca out, wilcox and brand are out there together a lot too, along with the other starters who get lots of minutes.



It's really somewhat of a hopeless argument. Everyone seems to have made up their mind on either side of this issue by now, and no one will really accept the numbers as they are, or better yet, accept the truth as spoken by those who work closely with the team (again Lee Klein, Matt Pinto, Mike Smith, et al): both Wilcox and Kaman are incosistent players, the difference between them is that while Kaman gives 100% of his effort while on the floor, whether or not he's having a good game, Wilcox simply disappears for entire games at a time (he has 6 games this season with 9 plus minutes worth of playtime and ZERO rebounds).


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

sertorius said:


> Arenas,
> 
> For the record, Eddy Curry is such a great player that he is currently averaging a measly 24.1 minutes per game, which is a full .9 minutes per game more than he did under Scott Skiles. He is a defensive liability, and an underachiever. That game where he “tore Kaman” up for a FULL 24 and 11 is clearly not exemplary of who he really is a player, otherwise his averages would be much higher than they are, either now 12.6 ppg/5.9 rpg, or career, 11.9 ppg/4.9 rpg. Now in case you’re unaware of this, the NBA is a game of statistical averages, that is to say, a player’s real worth is not determined by one game where he goes off for 24 and 11 (by the way, if that impressed you so much, why do you consider Kaman’s 22 and 22 game to be so meaningless?), but rather by his cumulative accomplishments throughout a season, hence, it is the players who can CONSISTENTLY perform at a high level who are considered good or star players. Going by that rationale, Kaman’s numbers of 9.1 ppg and 8.6 rpg in merely 6 more minutes of play time than Curry are more significant for the team. IF you need further proof however, go to www.82games.com, and see how while Kaman is on the floor the team is +3.2 points, and -3.4 points when he is off the floor, for a net gain of 6.6 points. Wilcox on the other hand is -3.0 on the floor, and +2.2 off, for a net TEAM LOSS of 5.2 points with Wilcox on the floor. For further comparison by the way, the Knicks are -5.7 points with Curry on the floor, which I’m sure feels great to think about when you consider Isiah Thomas gave him a 42 million dollar contract.


I'm not a fan of these 82games +/- numbers, but I'm going to use them against you in a minute. 

Let's not punish Eddy Curry because he's on a bad team. My point was you said if he were on the Clippers he'd be benched, which is ridiculous considering the fact that he's a much better player than Kaman. A lot of the Knicks players are having down years (especially Stephon Marbury), and I'm going to credit that to a new coach and a new system, both Jamal Crawford and Eddy Curry are players who have increased their numbers every year since they've been in the league, compare Curry's numbers to Kaman's, and you can see that Kaman hasn't even sniffed the kind of success Curry has had, furthermore if it weren't for Curry's heart troubles last year, you're looking at a young center who would have gotten a near to almost full max contract offer from many teams this past summer, that's based off talent and off the fact that his numbers have increased every year in the league. I used the game to show head to head Curry destroyed Kaman, he also dropped 19 and 8 against Kaman last year (20-11 in the first contest against the Clips, but Kaman didn't play), and Kaman posted 4 points, and 4 rebounds in 25 minutes.

Let's just end the Kaman vs. Curry argument right there, because it's one you're not going to win. All I'm going to keep doing is providing head to head matchups where Curry put up numbers and Kaman did NOT.

The end.

You posted +/- numbers for this season, why don't you come back with another diatribe explaining last year's numbers...

Wilcox 
On Court: -2.5
Off Court: -0.2
Net Loss: -2.4

Kaman
On Court: -3.9
Off Court: +1.4
Net Loss: -5.2

Those numbers (based off an entire season as opposed to the 27 games numbers you posted) suggest that we were a better team with Kaman OFF the floor last year, like I said, I'm not a big fan of these numbers, who's on the floor with you does have a lot to do with those numbers, and you've got a proven fool (known as one throughout the net on Clippers message boards) trying to help you with your argument suggesting that that is not a factor, you analyze those numbers and come back.



sertorius said:


> Your argument/assertion that the main difference between Wilcox and Kaman comes down to .18 minutes more for Wilcox to get a rebound ignores the fact that Chris Wilcox IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL LIABILITY on defense, and the numbers above bear that out.


This reminds me of a couple years ago when I was debating with Bulls fans about Kirk Hinrich. Those idiots contested that Kirk was such a great defender, yet he was getting lit up nightly by Leandro Barbosa (first start of his career tore Hinrich a new ), Jason Terrry, Bob Sura (gave up 2 triple doubles against him), and almost any other guard they played against. If Wilcox is a defensive liability, then what the hell is Kaman?

Games other centers have had against Kaman and the Clips...

Pachulia - 13 points, 7 rebounds in 32 minutes
Olowakandi - 13 points, 5 rebounds in 24 minutes
Olowakandi - 10 points, 4 rebounds in 23 minutes (outplayed Kaman in 2 of the 3 games)
Haywood - 10 points, 10 rebounds in 30 minutes 
Pachulia - 16 points, 13 rebounds in 37 minutes (outplayed Kaman in both games)
Mihm - 12 points, 9 rebounds in 35 minutes 
Foyle - 8 points, 10 rebounds in 28 minutes
Ilgauskas - 29 points, 10 rebounds in 40 minutes
Ilgauskas - 20 points, 8 rebounds in 32 minutes
Mourning - 17 points, 12 rebounds in 41 minutes
Curry - 24 points, 11 rebounds in 38 minutes
Kurt Thomas - 13 points, 17 rebounds in 31 minutes
Duncan - 27 points, 22 rebounds in 40 minutes
P.J. Brown - 14 points, 4 rebounds in 37 minutes
Ming - 22 points, 7 rebounds in 36 minutes
Krstic - 17 points, 4 rebounds in 36 minutes (another young big not known for rebounding, but he'd be benched on this team, lol)
Brezec - 20 points, 6 rebounds (Kaman nice game, but gave up almost as many points as he scored)
Brad Miller - 23 points, 10 rebounds in 42 minutes.

What I see there is guys who have been considered "serviceable and sometimes less than serviceable" putting up near double doubles everytime they play him, and the better centers in this league simply tear him up, no arguments there, the numbers don't lie.




sertorius said:


> NO ONE has said that Kaman is a star. NO ONE. We all recognize him for what he is: a hard-working, serviceable center. Nor do the numbers make your argument for you, a player’s worth on the floor is determined by averages, not a few games, otherwise you could look at say Tim Duncan’s recent bad game against New Orleans, and deduce that he is a bad player.


Then he's a bust, I'm not taking a kid #6 in the draft for him to be serviceable, and considering the amount of playing time he's gotten in his career so far, he's not doing all that much with it.

Nice try though.


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## sertorius (Sep 24, 2005)

Let’s get this out of the way: 

Diatribe: _n._ a bitter, abusive denunciation.

You are using the word out of context.

Now, whether or not Eddy Curry is on a bad team does not account for the fact that both of his two NBA coaches thus far have not seen it fit to use him for more than at most 24 minutes per game, and while I can appreciate that he has improved his numbers every year, this notion that “Kaman hasn't even sniffed the kind of success Curry has had” is ridiculous. Their stats are nearly identical, again, in six more minutes of play Kaman averages less points which is largely due to the fact he is not even the fourth option on offense while on the floor, but yet manages to get more boards and more blocks, while sharing the floor with a premier rebounder and blocker in the game. What exactly are the numbers you see that lead you to believe that Curry is head and shoulders above Kaman? Look at their numbers head-to-head:

*Curry:* *Kaman:*
PPG 9.1 PPG 12.6 
RPG 5.9 RPG 8.6 
APG .2 APG .7 
SPG .47 SPG .37 
BPG 1.06 BPG 1.74 
FG% .533 FG% .490 
FT% .623 FT% .698
3P% .000 3P% .000 
MPG 24.1 MPG 30.8

Where exactly is this “success” that sets Curry apart from Kaman? And what are the numbers that you seem to believe show that Curry is worth the 4th pick of the draft, yet Kaman as the 6th pick is a bust?

The +/- numbers for last season are interesting, and I had not looked at them, however I would point out that Kaman’s are based on 628 more minutes on the court, and that if you do some basic algebra you’ll see that if Wilcox were given the same minutes the team would actually be -4.29 with him on the court. In the end though, you say you don’t like those numbers so that becomes a moot point, so once again I’ll say it: listen to what the Clippers’ staff has to say on the matter of Wilcox vs. Kaman.

As for Kaman vs. the rest of the league _(which was not the subject of this post)_:

*Pachulia* - 13 points, 7 rebounds in 32 minutes *Kaman* 8pts.(3 for 5), 5rbs., _4 blks_ in 23 mins. (Pachulia went 1 for 9, but shot 12 FT, yet Kaman had only 4 fouls; is 1 for 9 being outplayed?)
*Olowakandi* - 13 points, 5 rebounds in 24 minutes *Kaman* 12pts., 7rbs., 34 mins. (Olowakandi needed 12 shots to get his 13 points, Kaman needed 10 to get 1 pt. less)
*Olowakandi* - 10 points, 4 rebounds in 23 minutes *Kaman* 5pts., 5 rbs., 20 mins. (Kaman did get outplayed here)
*Haywood* - 10 points, 10 rebounds in 30 minutes *Kaman* 4pts., 4 off. rbs. (7 total), 25 mins. (yes, Kaman got outplayed, but so did Rebraca and Wilcox)
*Pachulia* - 16 points, 13 rebounds in 37 minutes *Kaman* 9pts. (3 for 4 shots), 8 rbs., 26 mins. (Pachulia went 4 for 10, and got 12 FT, yet Kaman had only 4 fouls; is 4 for 10 vs. 3 for 4 being outplayed?) 
*Mihm* - 12 points, 9 rebounds in 35 minutes *Kaman* 10pts.(3 for 6, 4 for 4 FT), 11rbs., _4 blks_., 36 minutes
*Foyle* - 8 points, 10 rebounds in 28 minutes *Kaman* 8pts., 8rbs., 27 minutes
*Ilgauskas* - 29 points, 10 rebounds in 40 minutes *Kaman* 9 pts., 9rbs., 36 minutes (no one said Kaman is better than Ilgauskas by the way)
*Ilgauskas* - 20 points, 8 rebounds in 32 minutes *Kaman* 12pts.(6 for 8), _19rbs_., 39 minutes (Ilgauskas needed 17 shots to get 10 more points than Kaman, although those 8 rbs. are a blatant sign of how he outplayed Kaman!)
*Mourning* - 17 points, 12 rebounds in 41 minutes *Kaman* 9pts., 4rbs., 33 minutes (yes, Mourning is better than Kaman—shocking!)
*Curry* - 24 points, 11 rebounds in 38 minutes *Kaman* 5pts., 5rbs., 38 minutes (Curry did outplay him, but again, it’s not about what you do one night, it’s about what you do consistently)
*Kurt Thomas* - 13 points, 17 rebounds in 31 minutes *Kaman* 12pts, 10rbs., 36 minutes (Thomas needed 13 shots to get his 13 pts., the rebounds are impressive but deceptive, the Suns love to run the pick and roll with their bigs and Nash, and the Clippers switch the pick and roll)
*Duncan* - 27 points, 22 rebounds in 40 minutes (this is just ignorant! I’m not about to compare Kaman to what is possibly the best player in the game today.)
*P.J. Brown* - 14 points, 4 rebounds in 37 minutes *Kaman* 9pts.(6 shots), 9rbs., 39 minutes (seriously, which Clipper didn’t have a bad game this night?) 
*Ming* - 22 points, 7 rebounds in 36 minutes (yes, though overrated, Yao Ming is a better player than Kaman)
*Krstic* - 17 points, 4 rebounds in 36 minutes (“another young big not known for rebounding, but he'd be benched on this team, lol”) Kaman sucked this game, as did everyone not named Brand or (surprisingly) McCarty. By the way, if rebounding is so unimportant, why are the nets desperate to find a big that will do it?)
*Brezec* - 20 points, 6 rebounds (“Kaman nice game, but gave up almost as many points as he scored”) Sorry man, but if 22 and 22 is just a “nice” game, then really there’s nothing that’s gonna make you look at a game Kaman has as good.
*Brad Miller *- 23 points, 10 rebounds in 42 minutes. *Kaman* (surprisingly) 14 pts., 11 rbs., 4 blks., 31 minutes (Miller needed 9 more shots than Kaman to get just 7 points more, and had ZERO blocks—Miller by the way is a better center than Kaman, but I don’t think that’s the reason the Clippers lost this game.)

So there you have it, as you said, the numbers don’t lie. Kaman’s numbers hold up well in most of these cases, and in some are even better, especially when looking at them in context, and not just as a list meant to belittle him. You however, have a bias against Kaman, and just won’t admit it. In fact, just to remind you, this discussion was a Kaman vs. Wilcox starting, not a Kaman vs. the rest of the league discussion, but even so, I think Kaman’s numbers hold up well in this argument. Finally, I am done with this. You think what you will, I’ll think what I will, and time will prove one of us wrong.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> My point was you said if he were on the Clippers he'd be benched, which is ridiculous considering the fact that he's a much better player than Kaman.


I think its arguable as far as who the better player is, but by no means is curry "much" better than kaman. He has scored more points since he was more a part of the offense than kaman ever has or will be. But his rebounding numbers for a center were nothing to write home about. Based on that, kaman just might start over him on a dunleavvy coached team. Do i agree with that? Im not sure. But theres no denying how dunleavvy feels about big men and rebounding. not to mention that in less minutes kaman has averaged double the blocks of curry, another point dunleavvy likes. 

How a player does agasint someone has very little basis on their game overall. Elmore spencer and olowokandi used to have relatively great games vs. shaq. Doesnt mean they were great players or were close to someone of shaq's level. Kaman may not have had great games vs. curry, but there are 1000 other comparisons we can do. Kaman dropped 22 and 22 vs. Brezec? How has curry done agasint brezec? Well only time they played them he was injured, so youd probably have to check stats last year. Kaman dropped 14 and 11 on brad miller last game, what about curry vs. miller? curry had a very similar game with 16 and 8. kaman hit oneal from indiana so far with 13 and 16 in one game, 18 and 12 in another. Curry was injured when they played indiana this year, so youll have to go to last year to compare. But we can pull out bad games from kaman against someone, good games by curry, all day long until the cows come home, but it wouldnt prove much. Because the debate was if curry would be starting on this team. Honestly i think youd have to say no if dunleavvy was the coach. Not that its right, but because kaman does what dun likes, and curry doesnt. 



> You posted +/- numbers for this season, why don't you come back with another diatribe explaining last year's numbers...


Because you were saying wilcox this year should have gotten a chance to start over kaman, and so he was saying no, look at this years stats, apart from the whole effort thing, wilcox isnt exactly lights out this year to earn a start over kaman.

You post numbers that other centers put up agsint the clippers, that doesnt mean kaman is a bad defender. Kaman is a good overall defender. Defending is not only about having the player playing opposite you doesnt get a lot of poitns. Its about rotation on screens, positioning, blocks, etc. And thats what kaman does, and dunleavvy, all annoucers who are with the team always note. Many games kaman is on the PF and brand on the C, and they switch up a lot. That actually is something that I do not like from dunleavvy because it skews the numbers a lot, and neither player gets "comfortable" on the defense since theyre switching all of the time. 

Wilcox is a defensive liability because of his lack of effort some games...bad positioning, terribly late switching and getting back on pick and roles, and general lack of trying on some rebounds. 

Kaman was a great pick at #6. Hes one of the top 7 foot centers in the game. The taller you are, the less coordinated you get, the slowerr you are usually which is why you see so many "shorter" Centers these days like duncan, amare, miller, wallace, etc. etc. But of the 7 footers, kaman is up there. Of ALL the centers, regardless of size, he is probably the only one or one of the only ones who is the 5th option as a starter, and who does not get many looks in the posts (much of his points come off of rebounds, catching the ball outside of the post). Hes 10th amongst all centers at rebounding, and thats WITh having a teammate who is averaging 11 borads a game. (of the top 10 centers, he is number 1 for rebounds/minute). Hes top 10 among centers for a lot of categories like blocks, double doubles, etc.

No one is saying he is an all star. But the debate is that he is starting on this team and not wilcox for a reason, and its a very valid reason(s). He was a decent pick at 6. How many other centers picked in the top 10 the last few years have turned out like him? 3? 4? out of all the centers picked in the top 10? 

Get over it, theres no arguging that kaman leaves it on the floor every time hes out there, if hes stinking it up, or tearing it up. Thats why hes starting over wilcox, and thats how its going to stay barring injury, or barring a career first 6-10 game streak of just terrible games by kaman coupled with consistent effort by wilcox.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

lol....

Are you serious...

For future reference, when debating, don't make disclaimers like "well hey, what Clipper didn't have a bad game that night?", it severely weakens your argument.

I've already said I'm done with Curry vs. Kaman, my above posts speak for themselves...

I've proven 2 points...

1. Kaman's not that much better of a rebounder than Wilcox
2. If Wilcox is a defensive liability, so is Kaman. He gives up 20-10 games to the better centers in the league, and average to below average centers get double doubles against him more often than not.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Yes kaman is a much better of a rebounder than wilcox. Otherwise dunleavvy wouldnt always be complaining about wilcox's rebounding in games and in practice. Wilcox SHOULD be a much better rebounder than kaman due to his superior speed, jumping, and lack of ADD, which makes it all the more sad. 

Wilcox again is a defensive liability....duleavvy says it, annoucers say it, you can see it during games. The other players who get their poitns are not doing it esclusively with kaman guarding them. Dunleeavvy praises kaman's defense, again, as the experts do.

Will wilcox step up? I hope so. But right now, hes on the bench because he doesnt put the effort, and he doesnt rebound well at times, almost as if he has the ADD and forgets he has to box out, or forgets that he cant just rely on athleticism to get a rebound.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

all this time, and i thought that we were still in the trading wilcox, artest, etc. thread. Sorry about that. Im going to close this GAME thread. If you guys would like to still debate about Kaman and Wilcox, please start a new thread about it. As long as you keep the masked cursing down, theres no problem with it.


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