# Board All American Teams



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Im not sure if we typically have an All American Team poll, but I am starting one.

The source of the 20 names is pretty simple - based on the Sporting News all american list. At the end of the day, some may think its missing somebody they would vote for, but I doubt it will be the majority.

We will have a first and second team.

*Select seven names off the list of twenty* Why seven.... it makes it easier to get votes for the second team players.

EDIT - Sorry Malcolm Delaney. Your a nice guy but you have been replaced by Greg Monroe.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Voting for seven is done to get more valid results.

But if you just want to list yout top five, you can do so in the thread. But vote for seven in the poll.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

My Ballot:

Sherron Collins
Demarcus Cousins
Scottie Reynolds
Jon Scheyer
Evan Turner
John Wall
Greivis Vazquez


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

I refuse to vote until you put Greg Monroe on the ballot.

Turner
Cousins
Wall
Vazquez
Scheyer

That's my 5. I won't vote in the poll until Monroe gets put on there. I will vote for him and Jimmer Fredette as my other 2.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Thanks so much for doing this, JN!

*First Team*
Turner
Cousins
Wall
Scheyer
Vazquez


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## BlueBaron (May 11, 2003)

Devan Downey
DeMarcus Cousins
Scottie Reynolds
Jon Scheyer
Evan Turner
John Wall
Greivis Vazquez


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Nimreitz said:


> I refuse to vote until you put Greg Monroe on the ballot.
> 
> Turner
> Cousins
> ...


Greg Monroe and Cole Aldrich seemed to be fair choices for the top four teams, but they were not there.


If any other people think Greg Monroe is a top 7 player I will restart the poll with him.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

I don't think Monroe has been anything remarkable as to where he has to be on this list. Anyways, I voted for:

James Anderson
DeMarcus Cousins
Jimmer Fredette
Jacob Pullen
Scottie Reynolds
Jon Scheyer
Evan Turner

I thought it was interesting that nobody else voted for Pullen. He's averaging 19 PPG and shooting 38% from deep as the leader of a Kansas St. team that will likely be a two seed.

I guess I'm the only one not to vote for Wall or Vasquez. I think most vote for Wall just because he's the #1 pick next year, but that's because of his potential and how much his athleticism will translate at the next level. He's been a very good player this year, but his jump shooting hasn't been that good and he turns the ball over like crazy. There are a lot of other experienced and more polished players that have been more efficient. You could certainly make a case for Vasquez. I just think everybody else I voted for has been a little bit better.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

I had Pullen as number 8 on my list. Came down to him or Scheyer for me.


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## kansasalumn (Jun 9, 2002)

I am not voting since the best center in teh game is not on the list. Stats are not there, but he can change the game and how ohter teams attack


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

coolpohle said:


> I don't think Monroe has been anything remarkable as to where he has to be on this list. Anyways, I voted for:
> 
> Scottie Reynolds


Monroe has more assists than Scottie Reynolds, but you're right, that's nothing remarkable.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Nimreitz said:


> Monroe has more assists than Scottie Reynolds, but you're right, that's nothing remarkable.


Monroe's 6-11 and shooting 52% from the field. That's nothing special. Reynolds is shooting 48% from the field and half his attempts are from deep. That's special.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

James Anderson
Jimmer Fredette
Greg Monroe
Wesley Johnson
Evan Turner
Greivis Vasquez
John Wall


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

coolpohle said:


> Monroe's 6-11 and shooting 52% from the field. That's nothing special. Reynolds is shooting 48% from the field and half his attempts are from deep. That's special.


If he was scoring 25 points a game it would be. A one dimensional scorer with fewer than 19 ppg isn't special.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Nimreitz said:


> If he was scoring 25 points a game it would be. A one dimensional scorer with fewer than 19 ppg isn't special.


He's attempted over 200 twos this season, so clearly he isn't one dimensional. Scoring 18.8 with guys like Fisher and Pena in the lineup? My goodness.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

coolpohle said:


> *Monroe's 6-11 and shooting 52% from the field. That's nothing special*. Reynolds is shooting 48% from the field and half his attempts are from deep. That's special.


C'mon CP, i know you don't live under a rock. You know it's their Princeton offense system, he plays at the top of the key or elbow 75% of the time. It's not like he's missing easy post ups 5 feet from the bucket all game.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

They do not play a true Princeton offense anymore. Lots of cuts and backdoors, sure - but they're not playing slow. And even if that was the case, that doesn't mean you have to shoot 10 foot jumpers if it's not your strength.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

I hear u on the fact that it isnt the true princeton offense anymore..but it's not like their calling his number on the block all that much. 

Regardless if its not a full on princeton offense, it has the principles and his job is to bring the opposing big out to make spacing (key in that type of offense) for the backdoors and cuts. The reason why he's standing 15+ft. away from the rim. IF the big stays inside it's his JOB, according to the offense, to shoot the open J and knock it down some to eventually bring the big away from the basket. Not to mention he's half the passing in their entire offense from that position atop the key. 

So if you think him standing out so far and taking occassional J's, looking for the backdoors isn't his strength, then call up JTIII, cause it shouldn't be attributed to Monroe, due to the system they run.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

coolpohle said:


> They do not play a true Princeton offense anymore. Lots of cuts and backdoors, sure - but they're not playing slow. And even if that was the case, that doesn't mean you have to shoot 10 foot jumpers if it's not your strength.


Monroe runs the offense through the high post. We know you are aware of this fact.

And if Monroe isn't taking 12 footers that he CAN make who exactly is going to score on that team? He DOES have to take those shots because no one on the team can make a basket.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Freeman has had an outstanding season, and Wright has played just as well as Monroe. And you've got Clark and Thompson both shooting 40% or better from deep. They have plenty of guys that can play.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

coolpohle said:


> Freeman has had an outstanding season, and Wright has played just as well as Monroe. And you've got Clark and Thompson both shooting 40% or better from deep. They have plenty of guys that can play.


the idea that monroe doesn't have any help is wrong, but so is the idea that any of the other players on georgetown are as good as monroe.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

i've already voted but if greg monroe is added i'd like to switch my vote from james anderson to monroe.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> the idea that monroe doesn't have any help is wrong, but so is the idea that any of the other players on georgetown are as good as monroe.


Sure, Monroe is the best NBA prospect, but collegiately Freeman is just as important to Georgetown as Monroe is. If you don't think so, go watch their games against Notre Dame and West Virginia.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

coolpohle said:


> Sure, Monroe is the best NBA prospect, but collegiately Freeman is just as important to Georgetown as Monroe is. If you don't think so, go watch their games against Notre Dame and West Virginia.


I'm not exactly sure who runs Georgetown's offense if they don't have Monroe whereas Freeman is replaceable (not unexpectedly in the short term of course). Monroe is basically their point guard, leading scorer, leading rebounder, and defensive post presence all rolled into one. Freeman is a phenomenal scorer, but he doesn't really do anything else. But getting you to admit you're completely wrong is the definition of quixotic, so why am I even bothering.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

coolpohle said:


> Sure, Monroe is the best NBA prospect, but collegiately Freeman is just as important to Georgetown as Monroe is. If you don't think so, go watch their games against Notre Dame and West Virginia.


Not to mention UConn when Freeman dominated in the 2nd half.
Monroe is their best player but when Freeman is hot he is very good


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Nimreitz said:


> I'm not exactly sure who runs Georgetown's offense if they don't have Monroe whereas Freeman is replaceable (not unexpectedly in the short term of course). Monroe is basically their point guard, leading scorer, leading rebounder, and defensive post presence all rolled into one. Freeman is a phenomenal scorer, but he doesn't really do anything else. But getting you to admit you're completely wrong is the definition of quixotic, so why am I even bothering.


Why would I admit I'm wrong if I'm not? That seems silly.


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

I'm surprised I got the first vote for Hobson - leads team in pts/reb/ast on the #8 squad in the country and didn't make anyone else's top 7?


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

RebelSun said:


> I'm surprised I got the first vote for Hobson - leads team in pts/reb/ast on the #8 squad in the country and didn't make anyone else's top 7?


He's shooting less than 45% from inside the arc. That's too low for top 7 in the country, imo.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

coolpohle said:


> I don't think Monroe has been anything remarkable as to where he has to be on this list. Anyways, I voted for:
> 
> James Anderson
> DeMarcus Cousins
> ...


Jacob Pullen over Greivis Vasquez is ridiculous. They aren't even close.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

coolpohle said:


> He's shooting less than 45% from inside the arc. That's too low for top 7 in the country, imo.


Kind of like your NPOY John Scheyer?

Pullen - 45.7%
Hobson - 44.5%
Scheyer - 41.9%

At least Hobson has an excuse, given that he's the only player on his team capable of creating his own shot.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Jonathan Watters said:


> Kind of like your NPOY John Scheyer?
> 
> Pullen - 45.7%
> Hobson - 44.5%
> ...


Hobson doesn't have a 3-1 A/TO ratio like Scheyer does.

Pullen is playing much tougher defenses on a nightly basis. 

And Gary can create his own shot, too.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

Jonathan Watters said:


> Jacob Pullen over Greivis Vasquez is ridiculous. They aren't even close.


it's okay tho. Pullen shoots 38% from beyond the arc....yet so does Vazquez, who also averages more boards and assists, as well as shooting better from the field albeit not by all that much. but yeah...:laugh:


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## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

Where's D'sean Butler... i figured he would get a nomination. I don't htink he should be first team but close to it.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

thatsnotgross said:


> Where's D'sean Butler... i figured he would get a nomination. I don't htink he should be first team but close to it.


I agree. Butler deserves it over a handful of guys that are listed.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

coolpohle said:


> Hobson doesn't have a 3-1 A/TO ratio like Scheyer does.
> 
> Pullen is playing much tougher defenses on a nightly basis.
> 
> And Gary can create his own shot, too.


LOL, now there's a convenient stat. You're trotting out A/TO? You mean the point guard has the superior A/TO ratio? YOU DON'T SAY!!!


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Nimreitz said:


> LOL, now there's a convenient stat. You're trotting out A/TO? You mean the point guard has the superior A/TO ratio? YOU DON'T SAY!!!


3-1 is ridiculously good...just as a comparison Wall's is half that.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

It's ridiculously good yes, but A/TO is meaningless for non-PGs. Great, Scheyer has 3-1 A/TO, that tells me nothing about how he compares to Hobson.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

coolpohle said:


> Hobson doesn't have a 3-1 A/TO ratio like Scheyer does.
> 
> Pullen is playing much tougher defenses on a nightly basis.
> 
> And Gary can create his own shot, too.


What does Scheyer's Ast/TO ratio have to do with a rule about 45% FG shooting that you feel the need to selectively apply? 

And for the record, as Scheyer's Ast/TO ratio has gone up his FT rate has gone down. He's being less aggressive looking for his own, so of course his Ast/TO rate will go up. 

Not that any sort of logical argument is going to convince you of anything at this point. NPOY isn't decided on Ast/TO ratio, not sure why you would think it is, other than it being the only argument you've got to support a pre-existing bias. 

If Pullen is playing such superior competition to the ACC, why don't you dock Scheyer as well as Vasquez? How come the fact that Vasquez' worst stretch of the year came against poor competition and that while Scheyer's numbers have been in the tank in ACC play, Vasquez' have actually gone up?

This is where you would normally answer with some vague reference to 3/1 Ast/TO ratio...


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Nimreitz said:


> It's ridiculously good yes, but A/TO is meaningless for non-PGs. Great, Scheyer has 3-1 A/TO, that tells me nothing about how he compares to Hobson.


3/1 Ast/TO ratio is nothing more than a footnote in the NPOY race. It adds to an already acceptable body of work, but certainly can't be the body of work in and of itself. 

Scheyer already falls far short in one category that cool uses to distinguish the rest of the field, but for some reason can't apply it to the player he happens to like.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Rather Unique said:


> it's okay tho. Pullen shoots 38% from beyond the arc....yet so does Vazquez, who also averages more boards and assists, as well as shooting better from the field albeit not by all that much. but yeah...:laugh:


And there's that little bit about Vasquez leading a team that would have struggled to reach .500 in a mid-major league to 13 wins in the ACC.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

I don't mind Scheyer shooting only 42% from inside the arc when the majority of his shots are from 3, when he's shooting 40% from deep, when he has a great A/TO ratio, when he steals the ball, when he gets to the line frequently, etc. He's basically done it all this season.

A guy like Hobson is shooting 44% from inside the arc which doesn't impress me when you take 3x as many shots from there as you do from outside.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

More fascinating data on Scheyer's all-encompassing Ast/TO ratio

vs UNC Greensboro, Coastal Carolina, Radford, Gardner Webb, Long Beach St and Penn 
(highest Pomeroy 145, average Pomeroy 233)

6.14 Ast/TO

vs everybody else
(lowest pomeroy rating Charlotte at 101, everybody else at least in the top 80)

2.53 Ast/TO

This is the stat that supposedly decides NPOY...


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

coolpohle said:


> I don't mind Scheyer shooting only 42% from inside the arc when the majority of his shots are from 3, when he's shooting 40% from deep, when he has a great A/TO ratio, when he steals the ball, when he gets to the line frequently, etc. He's basically done it all this season.
> 
> A guy like Hobson is shooting 44% from inside the arc which doesn't impress me when you take 3x as many shots from there as you do from outside.


He shot 38% from inside the arc in ACC play. His Ast/TO ratio was barely 2/1

Shockingly, these numbers are quite in line with his career averages. When he wasn't a NPOY candidate. When he didn't happen to pad his stats against the patsies on the schedule to the extreme that he did this year. 

I know, crazy talk.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Honestly, I'd have more respect for a "John Scheyer is NPOY because he makes funny faces" argument at this point. 

It would have just as much legitimacy.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

coolpohle said:


> I don't mind Scheyer shooting only 42% from inside the arc when the majority of his shots are from 3, when he's shooting 40% from deep, when he has a great A/TO ratio, when he steals the ball, when he gets to the line frequently, etc. He's basically done it all this season.
> 
> A guy like Hobson is shooting 44% from inside the arc which doesn't impress me when you take 3x as many shots from there as you do from outside.


You should care, Scheyer's eFG% is a meager 51.4%. Come on broseph.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

So are we going with the 3 guard line up (Vasquez, Scheyer and Wall) with Turner at PF?
I think big guys deserve some more credit
I probably would have Aldrich in the top 7 if he was on there
I still give him DPOY even if he doesnt put up great numbers
He kind of reminds me of what Greg Oden was doing in Ohio State


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Some numbers on the players in question (Scheyer, Vasquez, Pullen, Wall)

All numbers exclude teams outside Pomeroy's Top 100 (I included low major conference champions if it was close)

All averages are Per-40 minutes, pace-adjusted

Games

JS - 25
GV - 21
JP - 21
JW - 20

Minutes-weighted opponents' pythagorean win % (Pomeroy Ranking)

JS - .874
GV - .869
JP - .858
JW - .827

FG%

JS - 38.7%
GV - 42.7%
JP - 39.6%
JW - 44.7%

FT% 

JS - 87.6%
GV - 84.1%
JP - 82.2%
JW - 76.6%

3P%

JS - 36.9%
GV - 36.8%
JP - 35.8%
JW - 31.8%

FTR

JS - .38
GV - .31
JP - .55
JW - .55

3PR

JS - .50
GV - .38
JP - .57
JW - .26

TS%

JS - .552
GV - .550
JP - .580
JW - .560

Pts

JS - 20.0
GV - 23.0
JP - 21.7
JW - 19.1

Reb

JS - 3.8
GV - 4.8
JP - 3.2
JW - 4.2

Ast

JS - 5.1
GV - 7.0
JP - 3.9
JW - 5.4

TO

JS - 2.0
GV - 4.2
JP - 3.5
JW - 4.8

Stl

JS - 1.6
GV - 1.7
JP - 1.9
JW - 1.9


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

kansasalumn said:


> I am not voting since the best center in teh game is not on the list. Stats are not there, but he can change the game and how ohter teams attack


Stop being a baby for all things Kansas. 

There are a few names that have been mentioned a few times with favourable comments - Monroe, Butler and Aldrich. I will start an additional poll for the second team and add those individuals in. Its clear that all three would not be first teamers, but could possibly be second teamers.

For the people who have refrained from voting, just vote for six players then, so at least you can have a say in who will make the cut for the first team.

Originally this poll was for the first and second team. But we will now have a separate poll for the second team.

We still have room for two additional names in the next poll, so speak up.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Alright, I'll vote for my first team.

Hummel and Udoh are two options for the last 2.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

You can't forget how good the defenses are in the ACC. Florida St., Virginia Tech, Clemson, Wake Forest, and Georgia Tech are all ridiculously good defensive minded teams. Of course his stats aren't going to be as good in ACC play.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Nimreitz said:


> You should care, Scheyer's eFG% is a meager 51.4%. Come on broseph.


Guards typically aren't going to have a high eFG. My point about Hobson was that his was low despite being a 6-7 forward who took 3x as many 2s as 3s. That's when it's an issue.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

coolpohle said:


> Guards typically aren't going to have a high eFG. My point about Hobson was that his was low despite being a 6-7 forward who took 3x as many 2s as 3s. That's when it's an issue.


That's totally wrong. eFG% is usually about the same as FG% for big men, guards are typically the only ones who benefit from the stat since it multiplies 3FG% by 1.5.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Nimreitz said:


> That's totally wrong. eFG% is usually about the same as FG% for big men, guards are typically the only ones who benefit from the stat since it multiplies 3FG% by 1.5.


I would think a guy that shoots way more 2s, especially at a high clip certainly has an advantage there versus a guy that has more 3 attempts than 2s. Personally, it's not a stat I would put that much stock into.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

coolpohle said:


> I would think a guy that shoots way more 2s, especially at a high clip certainly has an advantage there versus a guy that has more 3 attempts than 2s. Personally, it's not a stat I would put that much stock into.


Yeah he definitely does have the advantage with regards to FG%, but eFG% weights 3FG% significantly and usually serves to balance out guards and big men. Dallas Lauderdale leads the NCAA in eFG%, but that's because he shoots 77% and takes only dunks. He's a major outlier (as is Eric Boateng). Aside from those type of guys, the leaders are all guards with sweet strokes. Hoffarber, Freeman, Bohannon, Diebler.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

fjkdsi said:


> So are we going with the 3 guard line up (Vasquez, Scheyer and Wall) with Turner at PF?


This team isn't playing anyone. Picking 2-3 guards, 2-3 forwards, and a center is the stupidest way to make an All-American team. More deserving guys almost always get ripped off because there's multiple elite players playing the same position. These are the 5 best players in college basketball. Now, how you define "best" is up to you.


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## BlueBaron (May 11, 2003)

kansasalumn said:


> I am not voting since the *best center* in teh game is not on the list. Stats are not there, but he can change the game and how ohter teams attack


No, Cousins is on the list... :funny:


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

coolpohle said:


> You can't forget how good the defenses are in the ACC. Florida St., Virginia Tech, Clemson, Wake Forest, and Georgia Tech are all ridiculously good defensive minded teams. Of course his stats aren't going to be as good in ACC play.


Except that Vasquez's stats are better in ACC play, and you just got done whining about how lousy the ACC was in reference to Vasquez vs Pullen.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

coolpohle said:


> I would think a guy that shoots way more 2s, especially at a high clip certainly has an advantage there versus a guy that has more 3 attempts than 2s. Personally, it's not a stat I would put that much stock into.


Not when there's Ast/TO ratio.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

Im not a big fan of either but Vasquez is a better player than Scheyer
But Scheyer is a better/underrated defender imo


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