# Greg Oden is done for



## HB (May 1, 2004)

> Blazers center Greg Oden will undergo microfracture surgery on his left knee Friday and will miss the remainder of the 2010-11 season.


 Spears Yahoo NBA

Not much to say.


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## Wade2Bosh (Mar 31, 2004)

Wow. Poor guy just cant catch a break.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

He's done.


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## VBM (Jul 2, 2010)

Taking Oden over Durant might actually pass Bowie/Jordan in Portland ****-ups


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

wow i feel bad for the kid. its very sad.


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## thaKEAF (Mar 8, 2004)

Rip


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Be interesting to see what happens in the offseason. He's going to be an RFA, but will someone decide to roll the dice and make him a significant offer that Portland would have to think about matching....He'll probably miss a good part of next year and be ineffective for another part of it based on his history. Does Portland have to pay him the option money from his Rookie Deal, that would be too much since he was the first pick...Without looking it up it must be 6 million or so.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Yeah, stick a fork in him.


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

What a waste...


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Wow.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

wheres that guy that always argued that Oden isn't injury prone. Was it rocketeer or someone else?


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Color me shocked.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

ditto wow


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Really sad. Poor guy.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

You say he's done, but look at the NBA. MFS doesn't make you shorter and there are a whole lot of tall guys making big money in the NBA even though they are terrible at the game of basketball. He'll probably never be an impact player, but you had to wonder about that already. He can still recover from this and make a lot of money in this league...but he could also be done.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

That's terrible. He's done.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

It at least marks the end of his days as a Blazer. Theres no way that the Blazers would offer him a qualifying offer next year and I doubt he'll sign in Portland as a UFA.


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## Seanzie (Jun 9, 2003)

Unless another team's stupid enough to offer him a big contract, I think he'd probably come back to Portland for cheap knowing he kind of owes it to them. 

Really it's a shame though. A shame for Greg Oden, and a shame for Portland fans who could have had Kevin Durant.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

damn


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

someone will hano


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

It's just not fair. I know he could've been something special in the NBA. Hopefully he can somehow scrape out a decent career as a backup big man or something.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

About the only thing he has going for him is that he is 22. Hopefully he can be healthy at some point.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Really sad. There were reports from the Blazers beat reporters that the Blazers staff had already cleared him fully to play. They painted a picture that Oden was overly cautious and scared to practice full contact despite their assurance. So, why was he cleared for full contact? Is the Blazers training staff just really awful?


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

Sad. But not shocking. But of course Ballscientist wanted to trade Chris Bosh for him.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I think it's a foregone conclusion that the Cadavaliers make him the center of their rebuilding plan.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I think the only team that can save Oden is the Phoenix Suns. They have the best medical staff in the league and have done wonders for guys with serious injuries.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

Poor guy man. Rough times it must be. 

I won't call him done just yet...At least he's getting the surgery done while he's still very young. Bodies heal faster when they're younger, so hopefully for his sake he can work his way back to being a productive BIG at least.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

So sad to see what's happened to this guy, but this isn't the end of him. As far as Portland Centers go, Sam Bowie carved out a decent career after injuries early on. Bill Walton had a great career after missing a bunch of games early in his career. Oden will be back and he'll be a fringe starter for the majority of his career because of his rebounding and shot blocking.

Sucks for Portland, though. What was supposed to become a dynasty is probably going to be blown up. Camby and Przybilla won't be around forever, Aldridge will never be tough, Roy's only going to get progressively worse, and Andre Miller is old. About all that the team has promise in right now is Nic Batum and Wes Matthews.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

The good thing is he's young and he's a beast in the weight room. It's not like he's Eddy Curry. He can actually come back stronger healthwise (baby Jesus willing).


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> I think it's a foregone conclusion that the Cadavaliers make him the center of their rebuilding plan.


that would be a great story. if he signed with the cavs, came back healthy and dominated and helped them to a championship.


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

The younger the player, the better their prospects. Amare's not doing too badly right now. I hear he's making $15 million a season.

Even some older players seem to recover remarkably well. Jason Kidd for example. 

Older players already in physical decline who relied heavily on their athleticism are another matter: McGrady.

Listen, Oden will be at least as athletic as Z, who's still a starting center.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Can anybody ever make a thread about injuries without somebody bringing up the Phoenix Suns and their mythical band of hero-trainers?

Where did all of this start coming from?


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

Nice to know you Greg Oden


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

He'll be back. He's very young. I still wouldn't be surprised to see him 3-4 years down the line, in the right situation become a borderline all-star and make one ala Grant Hill (obviously not starting though).


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

I don't know what to say. I feel terrible about this so I can't begin to imagine how he feels. As someone already said it really isn't fair. Good luck to you Greg I hope you can come back and play well, I believe in you.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

'He's herb, he's a lame, he's a epic fail... FOH,SMH, ***** LOL'


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I gave up on him last time, so this doesn't surprise me. Still sad though, he could have been a legend with his abilities.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

^Not, to bust the bubble... I feel bad for him n all, but he was always overrated (imo). Doubt he wouldve been a legend, but it does suck to not even have a chance.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

He would have been a very efficient 15-20ppg player, while being a defensive anchor, rebounder and shotblocker. Probably 12-14rpg, 3-4 blocks. Not too far off from what Dwight does honestly. He was just a beast, but you have to be able to stay healthy in this league. 

This is the era of the injury prone centers. Yao, Oden and I hope not but Bynum looks to be on the same track.


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## 36 Karat (Nov 10, 2005)

GregOden's username ftw.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> He would have been a very efficient 15-20ppg player, while being a defensive anchor, rebounder and shotblocker. Probably 12-14rpg, 3-4 blocks. Not too far off from what Dwight does honestly. He was just a beast, but you have to be able to stay healthy in this league.
> 
> This is the era of the injury prone centers. Yao, Oden and I hope not but Bynum looks to be on the same track.


I don't know about 20 and 14, but he definitely would've been firmly in the top 5 if he had ever stayed oncourt enough to learn how to play without committing fouls and how to score consistently in the low post. 

He can still come back and be a strong starter, I'm convinced with his defense and rebounding alone. He knows how to rebound and he knows how to anchor a defense. His problem was ticky tack fouls and his offensive repertoire, both things that improve with oncourt experience. He spends so much time just getting back to neutral he can never grow.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

That's the problem. He never really had a chance to play in the NBA without favoring some kind of injury. He looked damn good at times in the league, but he never returned to the athlete he was at Ohio State. You could argue that Florida at the time had 2 of the top 5 centers in the league right now, and Oden ate both of their lunches at the same time in the title game. He made them look JV.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Problem is that there haven't been legit bigs in the college game for a decade. So any analysis you draw from Oden's OSU career is not going to be very relevant to the NBA. I never thought he would a bust, but it seemed very clear to me that Durant was a better player end of story. 

All that conventional wisdom stuff about building around big men assumes that your big man is as good or better than the guy you're taking him over. Durant was always better and it's hard to understand why it was ever thought to be a serious debate in hindsight.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

I kinda saw this coming. Not the microfracture, but the season-ending tag. 

He'll be back, but it's such a shame. When I saw and read clips of him as a high school senior, I thought he'd be one of the best players in the NBA by now, but ever since then, it's been one nail in the coffin after another.

I think I've only seen him play twice live in the pros... The first time, made some mistakes, but he next time around, it seemed like he terrorized us.


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## nanoBeast (Oct 16, 2005)

As long as the third leg stays injury free, he will have a chance to be a star someday.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

The reason why I'm not optimistic about Oden being able to return and have a decent career is that he's basically still the same player he was in college. Even if he can return healthy from this it'll be 2012 before he even sees consistent minutes. By then he has wasted 5 prime years of development. A raw center at 24-25 just isn't that promising anymore not to mention he will have a fraction of the athleticism he had before.

You can't really compare him to Z or Amare because those 2 knew how to play before they got injured. Oden thus far hasn't done anything beyond being big and athletic. He'll still be big but he needs a lot to cover for that lost athleticism.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I mean it doesn't matter how old you are, with time on the court you learn new things. 

Older players come back with new facets to their game all the time, the thing is they're not so noticeable because they're already at the 98th percentile of who they're going to be. 

Oden still has room until he even reaches a revised ceiling. If he can ever get the majority of just one season in he'll come back that next year a much better player. 

Athleticism isn't going to be a factor anymore, but with his strength and rebounding smarts they don't need to be _so_ much.


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## MojoPin (Oct 10, 2008)

"if" this, "if" that

the fact remains: Oden is injury prone. With the way things have went, I doubt he ever puts in a full season.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

I'd take Oden in Miami on the cheap assuming he could give 15-18 minutes a night.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I think NBA basketball is really just not for Greg Oden. He should just worry about living his life healthy for awhile after the surgery. I feel like stepping into a long strenuous season is a bad idea given how brittle he has been.


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## MeirToTheWise (Nov 9, 2005)

seifer0406 said:


> I think the only team that can save Oden is the Phoenix Suns. They have the best medical staff in the league and have done wonders for guys with serious injuries.


Bingo. It's the second MVP for the Suns after Nash.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

He should get Yao treatment. No more than 24 minutes ever, plus sitting on back to backs.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

That's not even working out for the Rockets and Yao is better than Greg Oden will ever be.

I guess that could be widdled down to just having him as your backup, but chances are that backup will be better than the starter.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

The funny thing is I actually think Yao has a better chance of coming back and be semi-healthy for the next 3-5 years than Greg Oden. Even if Oden makes it back from this one how long do you think it'll last? His body is just too much for his knees to handle and everytime he jumps theres a chance that something will snap down there.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> wheres that guy that always argued that Oden isn't injury prone. Was it rocketeer or someone else?


i've always said it was dumb to call someone injury prone and expect that they'll continue to get injured when they've suffered various unrelated injuries. and really, this is his other knee from the first microfracture and is said that it's unrelated to his knee injury last year.

but yeah, any idea that oden is going to be a massive impact player is done. no reason he can't still be an nba player though assuming he even has the desire to try to get back to that point.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Come. On. Son.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> That's not even working out for the Rockets and Yao is better than Greg Oden will ever be.


i don't see how it's possible to make any judgement on if the current plan of handling yao is working out for the rockets. he's played 4 "full" games. an unrelated injury doesn't mean that playing him 24 minutes or less a game is a failure.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Arguing with you about the Rockets or Blazers is more futile than people arguing with me about anything. We won't go there.

Suffice to say though I'd imagine we could both meet in the realm of agreement that 3-8 is a decent indication that it's not working too well *to this point.*


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Oden will still make an All Star team in the NBA.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> i've always said it was dumb to call someone injury prone and expect that they'll continue to get injured when they've suffered various unrelated injuries. and really, this is his other knee from the first microfracture and is said that it's unrelated to his knee injury last year.


I get what you're saying but there should be a point where a guy should be deemed injury prone despite having unrelated injuries. I mean what if a guy has 12 unrelated injuries and misses 12 straight years? Can you blame all of that on luck? At some point you just have to say that the guy has a weak constitution and I think at some level that has something to do with Oden. His body isn't built in a way where it can handle basketball activities. If he gets a left knee injury one year and the next year it's his right, it's logical to assume that maybe his knees just aren't strong enough to handle his weight. Those injuries are unrelated but it paints a bigger picture when you consider everything.

And just for the record I'm not considering the wrist injury a major injury. But it's obvious that theres something wrong with his lower body. It made sense and certainly not "dumb" to consider that a possibility after he was carried off the courts against the Rockets.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> Arguing with you about the Rockets or Blazers is more futile than people arguing with me about anything. We won't go there.


cool. someone asked if i was the guy who always said something. i responded with my opinion on the matter and what it is i always say. if that deserves a "come. on. son." then cool.



> Suffice to say though I'd imagine we could both meet in the realm of agreement that 3-8 is a decent indication that it's not working too well to this point.


3-8 obviously isn't good. how many of those games has yao played in? how many of those games has aaron brooks played in? if the rockets are hit with injuries unrelated to the reason they are limiting yao's minutes, it's dumb to say that them limiting yao's minutes has been a failure.

if you want to say the rockets have been bad so far, awesome. the rockets have been bad so far. if you want to say that yao's minutes have been a cause, i'm going to say you're wrong.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Intriguing. This probably drops him into Miami's price range this offseason. Could be a good pickup for them if he ever plays basketball again.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

If I'm the Heat I would rather spend that money on a proven veteran. IMO the Heat are 1 serviceable big man away from being title threats.(well, more than they are now) I'd rather they get that for sure this offseason than taking a chance of not getting anything with Oden.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Miami is too much pressure for him considering their main issue heading into the offseason will be interior defense and the entire world will be seeing what they do to rectify that. That might actually be a bigger spotlight than he had as Portland's so called savior. 

He should come to DC. People love McGee but he's not a starting center, and Wall would get him a ton of good looks offensively. Lord knows they need the defense and rebounding.

Whatever he does it needs to be somewhere quiet with a good point guard and a frontcourt he doesn't have to anchor.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

And if Oden joins Miami I can already see the title for an ESPN article

"Oden suffers injury and will be out for the rest of the playoffs"

I mean really, do you need that frustration if you're a Heat fan. Lakers go through that every year with Bynum and while they're good enough to win it can't be fun losing the guy every year when it matters most.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

DC? That is still an organization of misfits.

If I were him, it really wouldn't matter. My next deal would be 3 years anyway. 1 year to get healthy, 1 year to get acclimated and one year to earn my next contract. 

He is probably better off in a NBA media outpost like Minnesota or somewhere he doesn't have to play big minutes like Milwaukee. 

I hope Portland doesn't try and hoard him to recoup.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

And..what exactly does Arenas or Blatche's idiocy have to do with Oden oncourt? We're not talking about a guy that needs to be babied psychologically, he just needs a quiet situation with low expectations. 

The Wizards are still a team with camaraderie, he could use that. And I was just throwing them out there anyway.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> And..what exactly does Arenas or Blatche's idiocy have to do with Oden oncourt? We're not talking about a guy that needs to be babied psychologically, he just needs a quiet situation with low expectations.
> 
> The Wizards are still a team with camaraderie, he could use that. And I was just throwing them out there anyway.


You think playing with Wall in DC is going to be quiet? Come on, DC is a major media outlet in sports in general.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I don't think it would be the worst place for him. Look at Josh Howard, he was a go-to guy for journalists to **** on him his last couple years in Dallas and a lot people would be hard pressed to recall quickly where he is. 

He'd be just a guy in a cast of characters, no pressure for him to "save" anything, and he's playing with an all-star point guard.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Sir Patchwork said:


> He would have been a very efficient 15-20ppg player, while being a defensive anchor, rebounder and shotblocker. Probably 12-14rpg, 3-4 blocks. Not too far off from what Dwight does honestly. He was just a beast, but you have to be able to stay healthy in this league.
> 
> This is the era of the injury prone centers. Yao, Oden and I hope not but Bynum looks to be on the same track.


I didnt see that at all. Too clumsy. He was strong and kind of athletic, and good defensively, but incredibly foul prone n lacking stamina... offensively, he was not that awe inspiring to me either. Oden was less smooth than the '07 version of Dwight that was constantly bashed for his offense. Most I can see was like Joakim Noah type numbers... 15-17ppg in a good yr, if he could learn how to stay on the floor and increase stamina.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Hard to believe that turned into this.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

I have never been on the Oden bandwagon even back when he was in college. But hearing this news makes me so sad. As a fan of the sport, I never want to see a player never live up to their potential due to circumstances beyond their control. It really isn't Greg's fault that he's this injury prone, its just the nature of his body. Its such a shame because he had remarkable talent. It just isn't fair to the fans of Portland, the NBA and most importantly to Greg himself. 

Its just one thing after another and I feel this has been the final nail in the coffin for him. He may not be done as a NBA player, but as a #1 draft pick it officially makes him a legitimate lottery bust. 

Such a shame.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

It's sad because when he has been able to play he has actually been pretty good and he is a good guy. It's terrible.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Oden's to good not to get the Full MLE from someone this offseason. I mean if you can give Brad Miller 5 mil you can spend a bit more for a top 5 Center (when Healthy). If I'm Miami I jump all over Oden. Who else are they going to get with the MLE? 

The risk is worth the reward...


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

He'll be back


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

how can you be 'back' when you were never 'here' in the first place


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

I think a team out there would still be willing to offer him more than MLE.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Why? I give him like 2 years, 8-9 million and say take it or leave it.


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## JonMatrix (Apr 8, 2003)

The only other guy to have microfracture surgery on both knees was Kenyon Martin, and he was still a productive player (not in terms of his contract, but you get what I'm saying) and a starter. Oden has something than Kenyon Martin doesn't have, a 7 foot frame. And he is still young, and younger players tend to recover from microfracture (Amare, Zach Randolph) better than guys that have the surgery when they are older (Chris Webber).

Will he ever be a 20/10 franchise center? Not very likely. But he can still be a starting center in this league somewhere.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> I think the only team that can save Oden is the Phoenix Suns. They have the best medical staff in the league and have done wonders for guys with serious injuries.


Seriously. This is the only team I think he will be able to step onto an NBA court for an extended period of time.



Adam said:


> Really sad. There were reports from the Blazers beat reporters that the Blazers staff had already cleared him fully to play. They painted a picture that Oden was overly cautious and scared to practice full contact despite their assurance. So, why was he cleared for full contact? Is the Blazers training staff just really awful?


players combined to miss 311 regular season games 
Yes they are.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

I agree with Dre, the best thing for Oden would be to vanish to Milwaukee or Memphis or something.

No way should Miami sign him unless a) it's an absolute bargain of a contract, and b) they have other decent center options in the mix, for the seemingly inevitable event that Oden goes down again. As long as he's not signed and advertised as the missing piece to play center and anchor the inside, I don't think the Miami spotlight will be trouble.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Floods said:


> I agree with Dre, the best thing for Oden would be to vanish to Milwaukee or Memphis or something.


Thabeet, straight up baby. :gopray:


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Thabeet, straight up baby. :gopray:


Lol, I was just spitballing small-market ideas.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Thabeet, straight up baby. :gopray:


I'd be willing to trade Jermaine O'Neal for him, given that Oden's likely to make as much of a positive impact to Boston's title chances as Jermany.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

JonMatrix said:


> The only other guy to have microfracture surgery on both knees was Kenyon Martin, and he was still a productive player (not in terms of his contract, but you get what I'm saying) and a starter. Oden has something than Kenyon Martin doesn't have, a 7 foot frame. And he is still young, and younger players tend to recover from microfracture (Amare, Zach Randolph) better than guys that have the surgery when they are older (Chris Webber).
> 
> Will he ever be a 20/10 franchise center? Not very likely. But he can still be a starting center in this league somewhere.



Kenyon was able to regain his jumping explosiveness and lateral quickness after his second MF surgery because of how he rehabbed. He cut his weight by ~25 pounds to reduce the wear and tear on the knees.

I told several friends that are Blazers fans that it was a big mistake by the Blazers to have Oden put weight on after his first MF surgery.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I gave up on him last time, so this doesn't surprise me. Still sad though, *he could have been a legend with his abilities*.


Lol this guy wasn't even better than Lopez and Hibbert


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> Oden will still make an All Star team in the NBA.


Guy he should just focus on staying healthy and having legs


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

HB said:


> Lol this guy wasn't even better than Lopez and Hibbert


At the draft? Like **** he wasn't. He was an unbelievable big man talent. He ended up being an injury prone loser, but when drafted, the future was very, very bright.


Maybe people should have worried a little more about the fact Oden looked like a 65 year old on draft day. The guy will be dead by the time hes 40, I'd be willing to put money on it.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

I'll gladly take Oden on the Rockets.... maybe him and Yao could combine to play 3/4 of a season next year.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Oden will still make an All Star team in the NBA.


Not a ****ing chance.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> I'll gladly take Oden on the Rockets.... maybe him and Yao could combine to play 3/4 of a season next year.


:laugh: The worst suggestion ever. The Rockets are the last team to be thinking of signing an injury prone big man.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

HB said:


> :laugh: The worst suggestion ever. The Rockets are the last team to be thinking of signing an injury prone big man.


Would make about as much sense as the Lakers planning on Oden and Bynum splitting time. 

Relying on two injury prone centers isn't a very good plan for any team.


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## Krimzon (Feb 26, 2007)

Oden isn't going to be with a contender when his contract is up unless they get him for cheap. He's still worth getting just not as much. It is a gamble but if it works out, it will be great for the team. Right now his main focus should be on his health. He has the skills but his body doesn't help him utilize his skills.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Enough of the Phoenix stuff. Their trainers do a good job, but they aren't doing anything that other teams aren't doing. They don't don't have any miracle elixers.

Again, where did all of this come from? Because Grant Hill has stayed healthy? So what. Antonio McDyess stayed healthy in Detroit. Because Amare bounced back from microfracture surgery? Who cares. Kenyon Martin came back from two in Denver.

Phoenix isn't the only team doing a good job with this stuff. Stop regurgitating whatever puff piece you saw on Inside Stuff or whatever it is this is all coming from.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Greg Oden has played 82 regular season games since being drafted. In comparison Kevin Durant has played 247.

Greg Oden will never amount to anything in this league, other than an injury prone warning story. Not sure why people are talking about his future like he has one. He'll get a 1 year deal by some team willing to take a shot on him, at best a 2 year deal, and be out of the league when the contract is up.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

MLKG said:


> Enough of the Phoenix stuff. Their trainers do a good job, but they aren't doing anything that other teams aren't doing. They don't don't have any miracle elixers.
> 
> Again, where did all of this come from? Because Grant Hill has stayed healthy? So what. Antonio McDyess stayed healthy in Detroit. Because Amare bounced back from microfracture surgery? Who cares. Kenyon Martin came back from two in Denver.
> 
> Phoenix isn't the only team doing a good job with this stuff. Stop regurgitating whatever puff piece you saw on Inside Stuff or whatever it is this is all coming from.


Shaq also played the most games since 2000 when he played with the Suns, averaging 30 min a game no less. Penny had his MFS while he was in Phoenix and came back and played 80 games the following season and didn't really have any major problems with his knees until he got traded to the Knicks.

BTW, I'm not saying that other teams can't do a good job with injured players, but the Suns have the most well-known success stories. They at least do a better job than the Blazers. Darius Miles, Zach Randolph, Pryzbilla, Roy, Pendergraph, and now Oden. I don't doubt theres a gigantic black cloud above the Rose Garden but it can't all be bad luck causing this.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

But Oden is very good when healthy. Someone will pay him. Just not a lot of good 7 footers out there. If Gortat can make 7 mil for 13 mediocre minutes a game, then Oden should get the MLE for a chance at 25-30 very good minutes. It's a no brainer to me.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

caseyrh said:


> But Oden is very good when healthy. Someone will pay him. Just not a lot of good 7 footers out there. If Gortat can make 7 mil for 13 mediocre minutes a game, then Oden should get the MLE for a chance at 25-30 very good minutes. It's a no brainer to me.


Until hes injured again once he signs the contract. 


I'll call this exactly how it will happen right now. Once he signs a new contract and gets injured again, it will be the last NBA contract of his career.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Bigger bust. Oden or Darko??


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

I say Darko, just because he actually sucks at basketball. Oden can help a team, he's just never healthy.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Until hes injured again once he signs the contract.
> 
> 
> I'll call this exactly how it will happen right now. Once he signs a new contract and gets injured again, it will be the last NBA contract of his career.


The risk is worth the reward is all i'm saying.

Yeah it might seem very likely that he will continue to get injured. But there is also a reasonable chance that he could get somewhat healthy. None of us have magical crystal balls. Oden is a rare NBA talent and a guy who could dramatically improve any NBA team. I think he could legitimately be the third best player on a championship team.

Doctor's will evaluate this guy before he signs a contract. Ultimately his health at that point will determine his fate. But if they say "he can play opening night" Your'e not signing him the MLE if you need a Center? I know I am.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

no question it's darko.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Floods said:


> I say Darko, just because he actually sucks at basketball. Oden can help a team, he's just never healthy.


Yea, Darko for sure. Hes a bust on a skill level. He just isn't a very good player. A decent 2nd round pick with the way hes panned out. Oden? Hes good, hes just made out of glass. Not the same kind of bust.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

caseyrh said:


> The risk is worth the reward is all i'm saying.
> 
> Yeah it might seem very likely that he will continue to get injured. But there is also a reasonable chance that he could get somewhat healthy. None of us have magical crystal balls. Oden is a rare NBA talent and a guy who could dramatically improve any NBA team. I think he could legitimately be the third best player on a championship team.
> 
> Doctor's will evaluate this guy before he signs a contract. Ultimately his health at that point will determine his fate. But if they say "he can play opening night" Your'e not signing him the MLE if you need a Center? I know I am.


Sign him to the MLE? No, not a chance. I'm not paying anything but basement money for a guy who has one relatively healthy season in the four since he was drafted, with him missing the entirety of two of them.

Whether he can play opening day is irrelevant, he's still made of glass and has plenty of time to get hurt again.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Oden getting the MLE? Seriously, what team is going to commit that kind of financial suicide on Oden? yeah it may not be big time double digit money but its still committing a decent amount to somebody who has played a total of 82 games in 4 years. 

He will get some 1 or 2 year contract with some, if not all of it non-guaranteed, or 2 years plus team option for 3rd at 2-5 million per year. Thats it.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Blu said:


> I didnt see that at all. Too clumsy. He was strong and kind of athletic, and good defensively, but incredibly foul prone n lacking stamina... offensively, he was not that awe inspiring to me either. Oden was less smooth than the '07 version of Dwight that was constantly bashed for his offense. Most I can see was like Joakim Noah type numbers... 15-17ppg in a good yr, if he could learn how to stay on the floor and increase stamina.


Like I said, Noah and Horford are both arguably top 5 centers putting up 15/10+ type numbers in the NBA, and Oden made the junior versions of those guys look completely helpless, as a freshman, at the same time. He was a lot better than they were. He wasn't just "kind of" athletic. He was an extremely athletic 7'0+ 280 pound big man with long arms, excellent hands and a great feel for the defensive end. His offense was ugly at times, much like Dwights, but he could have easily put himself in the 15-20ppg range on size and abitily alone. Like Dwight. 

Dude is done, and it's pointless to argue about this much as it will never see results. But dude could have been a legend if he weren't so brittle.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

The team that signs Oden will probably do so with a string of option years. Probably start around 2.5 to 4 million depending on what the team's doctors say. They won't saddle themselves to him long term for any length of time without the ability to opt out.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

He will play in Texas


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

Didn't he have microfracture surgery before?


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

jayisthebest88 said:


> Didn't he have microfracture surgery before?


Yes, on his other leg though.


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

OneBadLT123 said:


> Yes, on his other leg though.


Well..then on the right side..we know he's been through this kind of rehab before and has recovered so I think it's a little premature to say his career is done.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Diable said:


> The team that signs Oden will probably do so with a string of option years. Probably start around 2.5 to 4 million depending on what the team's doctors say. They won't saddle themselves to him long term for any length of time without the ability to opt out.


2.5-4 mil is not realistic. Just look at what guys like Darko Milic/ Brad Miller get... 

If the doctors say he is reasonably healthy, then someone will pay him at least the MLE on a short term deal, only way I see him getting less than that are

1.) on a long term deal

2.) doctors say he is not ready for the start of the season.

But if he can play opening night there is no way he doesn't get at least the full MLE from someone.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

A short term deal actually works for him. If indeed he is healthy, he can go for more dollars afterward rather than being locked into a contract that probably will not do him justice.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

At this point even if doctors claim that he's healthy I'll have to see him play at least a season to be somewhat convinced that his body will hold up.

The guy couldn't even stay healthy through the rehabbing process. They'll need a stretcher on standby everytime Oden steps onto the court. Every time the dude jumps theres a chance that his knees will snap in half.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

HB said:


> Lol this guy wasn't even better than Lopez and Hibbert


let me go out on a limb - anyone who thinks Oden was potentially more than Mutombo Jr + maybe a little more offense ( 3 or 4 ppg?) is an idiot who doesnt know a gdm thing when it walks up and takes a mighty squat in your face


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

e-monk said:


> let me go out on a limb - anyone who thinks Oden was potentially more than Mutombo Jr + maybe a little more offense ( 3 or 4 ppg?) is an idiot who doesnt know a gdm thing when it walks up and takes a mighty squat in your face


Mutombo was far better than Lopez and Hibbert are now. So comparing Oden to Mutombo isn't really an insult. Dikembe Mutombo in his prime would be the 2nd best center in the NBA right now.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Yeah I was still thinking before this latest setback his new ceiling was a Mutomboesque impact.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Like I said, Noah and Horford are both arguably top 5 centers putting up 15/10+ type numbers in the NBA, *and Oden made the junior versions of those guys look completely helpless, as a freshman, at the same time. He was a lot better than they were.* He wasn't just "kind of" athletic. He was an extremely athletic 7'0+ 280 pound big man with long arms, excellent hands and a great feel for the defensive end. His offense was ugly at times, much like Dwights, but he could have easily put himself in the 15-20ppg range on size and abitily alone. Like Dwight.
> 
> Dude is done, and it's pointless to argue about this much as it will never see results. But dude could have been a legend if he weren't so brittle.


Did you watch those games? I've already went over this with all the Blazer stans yrs ago, and I dont care to get into this debate again. I kno what I saw. I watchd those games thoroughly as a UF fan, and Oden didn't prove much aside from the fact that he can play well in a 10-15pt deficit, when the refs pity your team... Anyone who watched the title game, it was obvious. The bigs were playing with two different set of rules. 

I watched almost every game from that Florida team for two yrs, i think i would recognize when refs just completely call a game differently for two seperate teams. It's not like I have any reason to make this stuff up, i been saying this since that very day. But of course Oden made them look 'helpless'. Lol, please man, it's obvious who is talkin out there ass and who actually pays attention, and followed the teams. You're just quoting a soundbite you heard someone on say, ur probly just checked the boxscore.

I dont talk about random teams or players I kno nothing about, when I start making bold statements. If ur gonna throw around bold statements, try to actually made some good, accurate points. Oden definitely had the most potential, but he was clumsy and was babied in the title game. Only reason to co-sign him going #1 over Durant, was cuz he had the potential to be better as a big man. It was Not because he had proved, or that he had done anything in any 1 game. The title game is a poor reference point. As we saw in summer league and in the nba, when Oden didn't get babied, his foul rate went thru the roof. I try to tell, but ppl didn't want to listen. Cocky blazer fans, & friends. :nonono: The evidence is right in front of you in the numbers. Dude is clumsy, lack stamina, & foul prone. Once agaisn, only reason he was good against florida is cuz the refs. Believe me or dont believe me, whatever, when the refs pity you in a blow out, i dont respect the performance. If you want to put it on a pedastal, that's ur problem then.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Wow, struck a nerve. If you want to believe that Oden bullied Florida because of officiating, that's fine. I don't deal with whiners, especially about officiating. You sound like a Kings or Blazers fan circa 2000-2002 whining about Shaquille. 

Oden bullied those dudes. I watched the game, I actually have it on tape because that's the last (I think) tape I ever recorded on VHS. They couldn't do anything with him.


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## Gx (May 24, 2006)

Blu said:


> Did you watch those games? I've already went over this with all the Blazer stans yrs ago, and I dont care to get into this debate again. I kno what I saw. I watchd those games thoroughly as a UF fan


lol, stopped there. Of course you're going to be biased.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

e-monk said:


> let me go out on a limb - anyone who thinks Oden was potentially more than Mutombo Jr + maybe a little more offense ( 3 or 4 ppg?) is an idiot who doesnt know a gdm thing when it walks up and takes a mighty squat in your face


Oh look, another thread where e-monk jumps in with "Anyone who's not on the Lakers SUCKS!" 

How ****ing surprising.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Wow, struck a nerve. If you want to believe that Oden bullied Florida because of officiating, that's fine. I don't deal with whiners, especially about officiating. You sound like a Kings or Blazers fan circa 2000-2002 whining about Shaquille.
> 
> Oden bullied those dudes. I watched the game, I actually have it on tape because that's the last (I think) tape I ever recorded on VHS. They couldn't do anything with him.


Florida blew out OSU, i have no reason to whine, only to point out actual fact. I dont care about the game, just when ppl only look @ the #'s n say 'Oden had his way'... No, the refs had his way. It is a joke. When Joakim Noah can't play defense the same way they let Oden play on other end, of course dude is gonna get #'s. I watched the game, with somethin invested in it. All u see is the #'s, i actually saw it play out. But yeah, im just bitter. That makes perfect sense... My team won the title, so i want to be bitter about Oden? That sounds dumb. :nonono: Do better.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Don't be bitin my phrase without the (C)


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

You guys can debate Noah V Oden in college. But, for what it's worth, Oden _destroyed_ Noah last year in the _NBA_.

It was one of the most dominating Center performances I have seen in a while. Oden is a monster. I mean I realize that he is kinda awkward and his offensive game is not nearly a finished product, but the rest of his game is very good and now that Shaq is over the hill Oden is probably the strongest center in the game.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

e-monk said:


> let me go out on a limb - anyone who thinks Oden was potentially more than Mutombo Jr + maybe a little more offense ( 3 or 4 ppg?) is an idiot who doesnt know a gdm thing when it walks up and takes a mighty squat in your face


IMO, Greg Oden = Tree Rollins/Alton Lister/Erick Dampier-level ability + Benoit Benjamin's motor + Bill Walton's injury capacity.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

R-Star said:


> Oh look, another thread where e-monk jumps in with "Anyone who's not on the Lakers SUCKS!"
> 
> How ****ing surprising.


color me shocked.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

so I guess Oden is one of the most dominant centers in the league with the polished inside game of mid-career Hakeem and the defensive presence and proficiency of Bill Russell in his prime? you're a couple of geniuses

he has career averages of 9ppg 7rpg in 22mpg - he's Joel Przybilla so far


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

e-monk said:


> so I guess Oden is one of the most dominant centers in the league with the polished inside game of mid-career Hakeem and the defensive presence and proficiency of Bill Russell in his prime? you're a couple of geniuses
> 
> he has career averages of 9ppg 7rpg in 22mpg - he's Joel Przybilla so far


First of all, no. Secondly, you're resorting to stats on a player who has a TOTAL of 13 games in the NBA. Third, double check your stats before comparing. Joel's are much lower. Lastly, Oden had a PER of 23 for those few games he last played. He's 22 years old. I'd gamble with him more than I would a 15th draft pick.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Can't you be signed for less than the QO? Isn't that what Thabo Sefolosha did with OKC?

I thought about this yesterday but forgot to post in the thread.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Hyperion said:


> First of all, no. Secondly, you're resorting to stats on a player who has a TOTAL of 13 games in the NBA. Third, double check your stats before comparing. Joel's are much lower. Lastly, Oden had a PER of 23 for those few games he last played. He's 22 years old. I'd gamble with him more than I would a 15th draft pick.


e-monk quoted Greg Oden's career stats in 82 games of action, which is the equivalent of one season.

Second, Oden's PER is distorted by the fact he scores the vast majority of his points within a few feet from the basket. You're misrepresenting the stat as if Oden is some brilliant offensively skilled player, when in reality he has no offensive moves outside of a dunk.

Third, Oden only played in 21 games in 2009-10. So if you want to take a guy with marginal offensive skills who will be fortunate to be playing in the NBA after two years of absence, go right ahead.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Would the Thunder be willing to take a chance on him?


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## JonMatrix (Apr 8, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> Kenyon was able to regain his jumping explosiveness and lateral quickness after his second MF surgery because of how he rehabbed. He cut his weight by ~25 pounds to reduce the wear and tear on the knees.
> 
> I told several friends that are Blazers fans that it was a big mistake by the Blazers to have Oden put weight on after his first MF surgery.


Yeah, he got way too big after the first surgery. The best case for him would be to drop a bunch of weight, sign somewhere with low expectations (ie, not Portland, OKC, or Miami), play well enough to get an offer from a good team, similar to what others in this thread have said.

Like RStar said, if he gets hurt again during rehab or ever for that matter, he's done.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

The guy has needed two microfracture surgeries for essentially NOT playing basketball. 

He broke his kneecap merely by jumping up.

If that is not an indicator that Greg Oden can't take the rigors of physical activity (much less playing in the NBA), I don't know what is.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

You realize that he was #2 in field goal percentage, #2 in block percentage, and #3 in rebound rate last year?

The game before he got injured in the first quarter, he played against Miami and he had 20 rebounds and 4 blocks in 30 minutes.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

I also realize that Greg Oden only played in 21 games a year ago. The field goal percentage is also the result of scoring practically all your baskets on dunks or offensive putbacks.

Rebound rate and block percentage are some of those proportionate stats that easily can be distorted. It does no good if Oden can't play consistent minutes because he's missing 60 games a year and on the bench for at least half the game in the handful of games he does play.

It sounds like some people on this thread are so in love with the concept of having a dominant big man in the NBA that you want to misapply those things in Oden's favor. It's one thing to want to be a ground-floor groupie/jump-on-the-bandwagon fan of the supposed next star; it's another to blatantly overrate a player.

Not to mention it still doesn't change the fact that Oden is now having a second microfracture surgery for essentially NOT playing basketball.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

See I hate when players get hurt or fall off then people get to come out with the "he was never good anyway" with no threat of having to eat crow in the future..


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

You make it sound like it's a bad thing that a guy gets so many dunks in a game where the objective is to put the ball in the basket.

He led the league in offensive rebounding. He sets good screens. He's a great finisher around the rim. He shoots around 80% from the free throw line. To act like he is Diop or Mbenga on the offensive end is ridiculous.

I don't know how rebound rate can be distorted. It's the relative value of rebounds you grab out of rebounds available.

Besides, I want my centers rebounding, blocking shots, and finishing strong. You keep claiming statistical error or bias which is just silly. It's a fact that the man is bigger and stronger and has the best combination of strength and quickness than any other person at his position. He didn't grab those 20 rebounds against Miami by accident and I'm not some bandwagoner to recognize his talents.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Adam, you're purposely misrepresenting what I said.

Greg Oden's field goal percentage is the reflection of being a mechanical offensive player who can only score from within a few feet of the basket. It's not because he was some dominant offensive weapon.

Oden was a career .666 from the free-throw line. Once again, misrepresenting his free-throw percentage; he went 49 of 64 in the 21 games he played in 2009-10. Stop acting like the guy was Jack Sikma from the line.

Rebounding rate is distorted because Oden's primary role and focus is to rebound. If he wanted to score, he had to get it off the glass quite a bit because he certainly wasn't skilled enough to have plays called for him. It's also muted because he will have missed 75 percent of the games played since he came into the NBA, and he spends more than half the game on the bench when he does play (career average of 22 minutes per game).

No one is disputing what a center's primary roles are; it's just that Oden's impact is vastly and purposely overrated on this site by his peanut gallery. He was basically an Alton Lister, Tree Rollins type player -- which is not bad, except some people keep acting like he is/was something like a Dwight Howard or an Alonzo Mourning or better. Then throw in the Bill Waltonesque medical problems, and it really marginalizes him. 

It's like you want to overlook the fact he was basically part of a two-headed rotation with Joel Przybilla, in large part because Oden clearly couldn't separate himself from the Vanilla Gorrilla. Really, it's been ridiculous for quite some time.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

I don't even bother with these threads anymore. I know what Oden was, I watched his production on the court, and I've watched him get injured time after time. He'll never be what I thought he'd be, but it isn't because he didn't have the skillset to get there. But that's my opinion, so I'm not going to bother bringing up facts because they're just "skewed" anyways.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Dre™;6412701 said:


> See I hate when players get hurt or fall off then people get to come out with the "he was never good anyway" with no threat of having to eat crow in the future..


Yall r the ones who should eat crow! Me n Najee are the 2 who took the most heat on here for Oden... For calling dude for what he was... Now that our prophesies are coming to fruition, ppl want to switch it. They want to change the situation. 

No, fact is, ppl just wanted to get offended. If we said he was injury prone, ppl wanted make excuses and get offended. If we say he lacks stamina and clumsy, ppl wanted to make excuses and get offended. At what point does the reality set in to you? He is all these things. 

It's not about eating crow, it's about whats real. Yeah he had high potential, but @ certain point, you have to evaluate the odds of realizing that potential. It was never that likely, but the fact that he was so big n nimble made him worth a gamble, but he still had alot of work. He was a good prospect, but still had flaws ppl did not want to see.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Dre™;6412701 said:


> See I hate when players get hurt or fall off then people get to come out with the "he was never good anyway" with no threat of having to eat crow in the future..


If you are stubbornly going on like this about Greg Oden, I could only imagine what you would have done had you been around to see Ralph Sampson or Roy Tarpley play ball. You would have had statues built in their honor.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

GregOden said:


> I don't even bother with these threads anymore. I know what Oden was, I watched his production on the court, and I've watched him get injured time after time. He'll never be what I thought he'd be, but it isn't because he didn't have the skillset to get there. But that's my opinion, so I'm not going to bother bringing up facts because they're just "skewed" anyways.


...


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Najee said:


> If you are stubbornly going on like this about Greg Oden, I could only imagine what you would have done had you been around to see Ralph Sampson or Roy Tarpley play ball. You would have had statues built in their honor.


What do you mean stubbornly going on, it's not some 8 paragraph diatribe, and it's not even exclusively about Oden. 

But people are just really underrating the hell out of him is all. 

But trying to debate you or Blu is basically post padding so it's over with on this end, maybe someone else would like to engage you guys.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Najee said:


> Rebounding rate is distorted because Oden's primary role and focus is to rebound. If he wanted to score, he had to get it off the glass quite a bit because he certainly wasn't skilled enough to have plays called for him. It's also muted because he will have missed 75 percent of the games played since he came into the NBA, and he spends more than half the game on the bench when he does play (career average of 22 minutes per game).


His rebounding stats are distorted because he tries too hard? I guess Kobe's scoring is inflated because he tries too hard to score. I guess Stockton's assists were inflated because he tries too hard to pass.

What's he supposed to do? Smoke a cigarette with one and rebound with only the other while doing emo poses and acting like the ball may or may not come to his hand depending on how lucky he is? Are they choosing the best rebounder nowadays based upon how often random balls carom directly to you without trying? He shouldn't give effort to achieve a result that is directly proportional to effort?


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Lol, there is no discussion to be had here Dre. Proof is in the pudding. What is your case for Oden? I like Oden, but let's just be real here. How is he underrated? I just do not understand these romanticized theories, based on what i saw from him. Ppl confuse his potential w/ what he actually was.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Dre™ said:


> What do you mean stubbornly going on, it's not 8 paragraph diatribe, and it's not even exclusively about Oden.
> 
> But people are just really underrating the hell out of him is all.
> 
> But trying to debate you or Blu is basically post padding so it's over with on this end, maybe someone else would like to engage you guys.


Maybe because I've seen every great center since Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in his prime that I know what a potentially dominant big man is and can do. And I'm sorry if you think so, but I'm not underrating Greg Oden at all.

Like I said, if you're going on like this about Oden it was a good thing you weren't alive when Ralph Sampson was doing his thing. You would have been building statues in his honor.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Adam said:


> His rebounding stats are distorted because he tries too hard? I guess Kobe's scoring is inflated because he tries too hard to score. I guess Stockton's assists were inflated because he tries too hard to pass.


Once again, purposely misrepresenting the statement as well as putting words in people's mouths in order to think you're making a point. You're better than that, dude.

Greg Oden's rebounding rate is tempered by the very relevant fact that he will have missed three out of four games since he came in the NBA. And in the 25 percent of the available games in which he has played, he spends more than half of them on the bench because of foul trouble. What part of that is not making sense?

I don't care how high Oden's rebounding rate is, the fact that he can't play in the majority of games available more than mitigates it. What part of that doesn't make sense? 

You can't rely on Oden's production because he's not available the majority of the time, so you pick out a stat that distorts his overall evaluation.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Way back when I referred to him as a rich man's Kendrick Perkins, which is pretty much what he's been on the rare occasions that he's been healthy. I don't and never did care that his offensive game didn't look elegant. Al Jefferson has the most elegant looking post game among NBA bigs, but he can't play a lick of defense and couldn't lead a team to 20 frigging wins. A center that can defend the post, control the defensive glass, and be an effective garbageman on the offensive end is incredibly valuable. The funny thing is that the people ragging on Oden for the ugliness of his offensive game would probably be the first to rag on players for styling on offense. There ain't no style points in basketball. All I give a **** about is that my garbageman actually be _good_ at tip ins. Unlike Kendrick Perkins (who's an incredibly valuable defensive player, but an atrocious offensive one).


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Blu said:


> Lol, there is no discussion to be had here Dre. Proof is in the pudding. What is your case for Oden? I like Oden, but let's just be real here. How is he underrated? I just do not understand these romanticized theories, based on what i saw from him. Ppl confuse his potential w/ what he actually was.


He actually was #2 in blocks and field goal percentage and #3 in rebounds. That actually happened.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Blu said:


> Florida blew out OSU, i have no reason to whine, only to point out actual fact. I dont care about the game, just when ppl only look @ the #'s n say 'Oden had his way'... No, the refs had his way. It is a joke. When Joakim Noah can't play defense the same way they let Oden play on other end, of course dude is gonna get #'s. I watched the game, with somethin invested in it. All u see is the #'s, i actually saw it play out. But yeah, im just bitter. That makes perfect sense... My team won the title, so i want to be bitter about Oden? That sounds dumb. :nonono: Do better.


Being bitter is actually an upgrade over whining about officials because a player bullied your team, so I was giving you the benefit of the doubt on that one. A lot of people watched the game, it was the championship. Stop playing that "I'm the only one who watched the game" card. Maybe you're just a whiner.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

It's easy to jump on Oden now because we all know he'll never be the player that he was projected to be. You can jump on either side as hard as you want but as far as I'm concerned both sides are invalid because nobody knows what he could've been.

When I watched Dwight the first year I never thought he would average 20+ either. When I watched Noah the first year I never imagined that one day he'll develop a midrange jump shot. When I saw Hibbert I didn't think he would put up the type of numbers that he's currently putting up. I don't see how after watching these guys develop that you can say that Oden couldn't have developed a decent offensive game. There is always that chance when the guy had the type of physical tools that Oden had.

Again, it's easy to win the verbal battle now because Oden will never fulfill that potential. I don't see the point to carry on about this because neither side can prove anything.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Being bitter is actually an upgrade over whining about officials because a player bullied your team, so I was giving you the benefit of the doubt on that one. A lot of people watched the game, it was the championship. Stop playing that "I'm the only one who watched the game" card. Maybe you're just a whiner.


You're talking to a guy who thinks Rashard Lewis is on the same tier as Joe Johnson. In this guy's mind the only thing that separates Oden from Hakeem Olajuwon is a Magic jersey. Just stop wasting your time.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

E.H. Munro said:


> Way back when I referred to him as a rich man's Kendrick Perkins, which is pretty much what he's been on the rare occasions that he's been healthy. I don't and never did care that his offensive game didn't look elegant. Al Jefferson has the most elegant looking post game among NBA bigs, but he can't play a lick of defense and couldn't lead a team to 20 frigging wins. A center that can defend the post, control the defensive glass, and be an effective garbageman on the offensive end is incredibly valuable. The funny thing is that the people ragging on Oden for the ugliness of his offensive game would probably be the first to rag on players for styling on offense. There ain't no style points in basketball. All I give a **** about is that my garbageman actually be _good_ at tip ins. Unlike Kendrick Perkins (who's an incredibly valuable defensive player, but an atrocious offensive one).


All of his points are ugly and come off of dunks and putbacks. Nobody wants dunks and putbacks all the time, okay? 

He only gets rebounds because he tries too hard. He is a statpadder. 

The shotblocking is also a fluke. There were countless times opposing players just *threw* the ball into his arms. Seriously.

Did I cover everything. What else was he good at? I have plenty more rationalizations if you need.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> You're talking to a guy who thinks Rashard Lewis is on the same tier as Joe Johnson. In this guy's mind the only thing that separates Oden from Hakeem Olajuwon is a Magic jersey. Just stop wasting your time.


Jameer Pocket Magic Nelson, Courtney Lee Superstar & Pippen 2k for the mother****ing win!

Funny, you figure the Rockets would be doing better since they have Courtney Lee Superstar...


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Seifer said:


> It's easy to jump on Oden now because we all know he'll never be the player that he was projected to be. You can jump on either side as hard as you want but as far as I'm concerned both sides are invalid because nobody knows what he could've been.
> 
> When I watched Dwight the first year I never thought he would average 20+ either. When I watched Noah the first year I never imagined that one day he'll develop a midrange jump shot. When I saw Hibbert I didn't think he would put up the type of numbers that he's currently putting up. I don't see how after watching these guys develop that you can say that Oden couldn't have developed a decent offensive game. There is always that chance when the guy had the type of physical tools that Oden had.
> 
> Again, it's easy to win the verbal battle now because Oden will never fulfill that potential. I don't see the point to carry on about this because neither side can prove anything.


It's out of the realm of possibility to think he would've developed a somewhat more nuanced lowpost game and learned how not to get into frequent foul trouble defensively, those were his main flaws, and we've seen how actual playing time improves the one and diminishes the other.

You yourself note those other centers' improvement but then nullify your point instead of sticking with it and believing those things were possible, if not probable, *if* he could've stayed oncourt, that's the huge caveat. 

Those guys made their improvements through consistent PT, and hypothesizing the same for Oden is not preposterous. If we can't base our projections for players off of prior, comparable cases at the same position, what do we watch games for? Why should we retain the information from them?

Maybe for entertaining the idea of him being healthy for a significant amount of time alone I'm being foolish, but I'm hardly romanticizing or proposing a monument to the guy by saying he could've been a borderline all-star in a league with like 5 centers you'd want in the top 3 of your team, *with* those rough patches ironed out. 

His flaws could never be alleviated or improved upon because instead of building on a base of experience he was always trying to get back to square one, a flawed frame in the first place. There's really not much debating that, and that was *all* I was saying. 

And Mr. Gerald Pippen doesn't need to be talking to anyone about romanticizing or overrating potential.

At the end of the day though, it's all coulda, woulda, shoulda. He offered flashes of dominance in the brief moments he was oncourt, you can throw that up against his games missed, call him a liability and pat yourself on the back, or you could be disappointed he couldn't keep it together. As a basketball fan I will do the latter.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Oden never proved to me that he was a great NBA player or that he could become one. He was supposed to be a great defender and a great shotblocker, but you just saw him trying to block shots when he shouldn't have and sitting on the bench. He was a great shotblocker in college, but in the NBA guys were going straight at him with absolutely no fear and trying to dunk on him.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Again, nobody is saying that Oden has *proved* anything. Nobody is comparing him to Dwight at Oden's current or past state. That would be overrating him. I'm only saying that he had the potential to be something great. Now that possibility is out the window it is easy to argue against it because it's an argument that one would never lose.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Alot of people are really overrating Greg's potential. I mean take a step back and look at it this way. In 4 years, he is going to play the equivalent of 1 NBA season. Tell me, how can you take all the percentages he put up seriously when it is such a small sample size of his career?

Mark Eaton and Kevin Willis put up amazing rebound % numbers, Eaton had one of the highest BPG's and Block % in NBA history. But how did their careers and legacy stand up over time? They are almost forgotten. 

Just because Oden had 1 seasons worth of sexy percentages does not mean everyone needs to overrate him. It sucks for Oden. He could have been a good NBA player, but in the end it probably isn't going to happen. But lets not get ahead of ourselves and mourn the loss of some future legendary big man here.

Absolute peak he probably would have been no better than Dikembe
Overall Wise its looking more and more like Sam Bowie
Bust wise a Kwame Brown


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

That's a pretty lazy evaluation. 

Noone was projecting Eaton or Willis to be all-time greats or even all-stars. You can't compare two roleplayers in prime seasons to a kid who was projected to be at the least an all-star, and when healthy put up numbers that indicated he was on an upward trek, however limited and context heavy they were.

If something were to happen to Wall where he was greatly diminished, would you be posting "who knows what he could've done, even Andre Miller and Brevin Knight had super high assist totals for a season", or would you be assuming his production wasn't an anomaly but a sign of what was to come, and be mourning the loss of a potential very good player?


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

He looks like 50 years old, but he is 20.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Dre™;6412838 said:


> That's a pretty lazy evaluation.
> 
> Noone was projecting Eaton or Willis to be all-time greats or even all-stars. You can't compare two roleplayers in prime seasons to a kid who was projected to be at the least an all-star, and when healthy put up numbers that indicated he was on an upward trek, however limited and context heavy they were.
> 
> If something were to happen to Wall where he was greatly diminished, would you be posting "who knows what he could've done, even Andre Miller and Brevin Knight had super high assist totals for a season", or would you be assuming his production wasn't an anomaly but a sign of what was to come, and be mourning the loss of a potential very good player?


I dont see whats lazy about it considering all we have of Oden is 1 seasons worth over 4 years production. I mean seriously, how can you proclaim this kid had all this hype building "potential" with such a small sample size? For all we know he could have already peaked. Just because the round table at ESPN says this kid is going to be great, does not mean he will. 

All Oden ever was in Portland was a role player, so I would assume its fair to compare him to role players because its all we have

It's like some people wanted this kid to be so good, yet when they see him fail like this, all they have left to grasp is his great "potential"

If thats the case, put Ralph Sampson in the Hall of Fame then


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Double post


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Ballscientist said:


> He looks like 50 years old, but he is 20.


/thread :vuvuzela:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

OneBadLT123 said:


> I dont see whats lazy about it considering all we have of Oden is 1 seasons worth over 4 years production. I mean seriously, how can you proclaim this kid had all this hype building "potential" with such a small sample size? For all we know he could have already peaked. Just because the round table at ESPN says this kid is going to be great, does not mean he will.
> 
> All Oden ever was in Portland was a role player, so I would assume its fair to compare him to role players because its all we have
> 
> ...


I say he had potential because I saw the flashes and have seen the production he was capable of when actually fairly healthy, and like I've said like 5 times in here the things he were flawed at were things you could get better at, we're not talking about a PG without playmaking ability or a wing who wasn't quick.

But at this point it's like overkill either way..it is what it is.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> I say he had potential because I saw the flashes and have seen the production he was capable of when actually fairly healthy, and like I've said like 5 times in here the things he were flawed at were things you could get better at, we're not talking about a PG without playmaking ability or a wing who wasn't quick.
> 
> But at this point it's like overkill either way..it is what it is.


I can agree with this. Overall its just one very unfortunate situation.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

e-monk said:


> so I guess Oden is one of the most dominant centers in the league with the polished inside game of mid-career Hakeem and the defensive presence and proficiency of Bill Russell in his prime? you're a couple of geniuses
> 
> he has career averages of 9ppg 7rpg in 22mpg - he's Joel Przybilla so far


So what you're saying is........ everyone who doesn't play on the Lakers sucks then, correct?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Even when he was healthy some of us doubted the hype


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> *Mutombo was far better than Lopez and Hibbert are now*. So comparing Oden to Mutombo isn't really an insult. Dikembe Mutombo in his prime would be the 2nd best center in the NBA right now.


Hopefully you mean on defense.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Adam said:


> He actually was #2 in blocks and field goal percentage and #3 in rebounds. That actually happened.


... and then, the remaining 75% of the season happened. You know, the period in which Greg Oden didn't play.

Oden didn't finish among the league leaders in blocks, field goal percentage and rebounds in 2009-10 because he didn't play in nearly enough games to qualify. When you get to the point where you're stretching things purposely to have an argument, you really need to stop.

This article said it all to me about Oden:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/20749/the-unkept-promise-of-greg-oden

When suggested his injuries may be part of a bigger, more systemic issue, Oden did his typical detached Benoit Benjamin impersonation and refused to pursue it. I guess between taking nude pictures of himself, drinking and having a false impression of how good he was, checking to see if his body was betraying him was not high on his priorities.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Diable said:


> Oden never proved to me that he was a great NBA player or that he could become one. He was supposed to be a great defender and a great shotblocker, but you just saw him trying to block shots when he shouldn't have and sitting on the bench. He was a great shotblocker in college, but in the NBA guys were going straight at him with absolutely no fear and trying to dunk on him.


I agree. I saw a guy who was basically a bigger Emeka Okafor. But this "stud" talk and incredulous rambling went way beyond that.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> That's a pretty lazy evaluation.
> 
> Noone was projecting Eaton or Willis to be all-time greats or even all-stars. You can't compare two roleplayers in prime seasons to a kid who was projected to be at the least an all-star, and when healthy put up numbers that indicated he was on an upward trek, however limited and context heavy they were.
> 
> If something were to happen to Wall where he was greatly diminished, would you be posting "who knows what he could've done, even Andre Miller and Brevin Knight had super high assist totals for a season", or would you be assuming his production wasn't an anomaly but a sign of what was to come, and be mourning the loss of a potential very good player?


Wasn't Willis a all star?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Oh snap! Looked it up and Mark Eaton was too.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Kevin Willis (1992) and Mark Eaton (1989) each played in one NBA All-Star Game.

Not to mention I wouldn't call Willis a role player in his prime seasons (1991-92 through 1994-95). Let's not even mention that Willis played 21 seasons and was a player who contributed until 2001-02.

Nor will I mention that Eaton was a five-time member of the NBA All-Defensive team and a two-time Defensive Player of the Year.

But hey, that's not as important as what some jock riders wanted to subjectively project what Greg Oden could do. Speculation is more important than actual results when it comes to Oden, according to some people.


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## BeeGee (Jul 9, 2010)

If and when he ever plays a full season, some Blazers fan from Vegas will be a billionaire.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Najee said:


> Kevin Willis (1992) and Mark Eaton (1989) each played in one NBA All-Star Game.
> 
> Not to mention I wouldn't call Willis a role player in his prime seasons (1991-92 through 1994-95). Let's not even mention that Willis played 21 seasons and was a player who contributed until 2001-02.
> 
> ...


Onebadlt said for the most part history had forgotten Willis and eaton. I guess dre was proving that it had. Hell I'm a history buff and had forgotten eaton was an all-star.

Oden will be remembered though. Same as Sam Bowie


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Blazers will keep Oden, and Oden will return to the court. Guy would only be a senior in college right now if he never came out early. Dude has a long road to recovery, but no doubt he will make it back.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Blazers will keep Oden, and Oden will return to the court. Guy would only be a senior in college right now if he never came out early. Dude has a long road to recovery, but no doubt he will make it back.


If he redshirted a season he would. Which obviously would of been likely.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Jamel Irief said:


> Onebadlt said for the most part history had forgotten Willis and eaton. I guess dre was proving that it had. Hell I'm a history buff and had forgotten eaton was an all-star.
> 
> Oden will be remembered though. Same as Sam Bowie


I took that as hyperbole from OneBadLT123, not as something literal. Mark Eaton arguably is the best center the New Orleans/Utah Jazz ever had and Kevin Willis was a longtime mainstay for Atlanta.

Dre is merely proving how much crap some people on this site are pulling out of their behinds to rationalize/defend Greg Oden. Comparing a guy who can't play in 75 percent of his available games to a 20-year NBA veteran or a two-time defensive player of the year is insane.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Blazers will keep Oden, and Oden will return to the court. Guy would only be a senior in college right now if he never came out early. Dude has a long road to recovery, but no doubt he will make it back.


Dude would be a senior in college who had better be hitting the books, because most people would be writing his basketball career off at this point in time. Its not as though he never got injured in NCAA ball. He sure as hell wouldn't be going first in any upcoming draft after hes shown how durable he is.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

R-Star said:


> Dude would be a senior in college who had better be hitting the books, because most people would be writing his basketball career off at this point in time. Its not as though he never got injured in NCAA ball. He sure as hell wouldn't be going first in any upcoming draft after hes shown how durable he is.


I agree. If anything, the fact that Greg Oden is 22 years old works AGAINST him, IMO. Anyone that young who needed the knee surgeries Oden has had and under the circumstances which required the surgeries wouldn't come close to being drafted.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Anyone that's sustained a major injury at a young age, and old age. Know, while neither is an ideal thing to go through, it's much much easier to recover and get stronger at a young age, versus an old age. So no it doesn't work against Oden.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

R-Star said:


> Dude would be a senior in college who had better be hitting the books, because most people would be writing his basketball career off at this point in time. Its not as though he never got injured in NCAA ball. He sure as hell wouldn't be going first in any upcoming draft after hes shown how durable he is.


Maybe he would of turned into a dentist like he use to talk about ?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'll let you guys pull the age card out because you love to do it and you got me there, but that still really has no bearing on the discussion we had, and he ended up agreeing with my assertion in the end, so at this point you're just meandering the conversation.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Anyone that's sustained a major injury at a young age, and old age. Know, while neither is an ideal thing to go through, it's much much easier to recover and get stronger at a young age, versus an old age. So no it doesn't work against Oden.


If he had 1 major injury, I would agree. But Oden has shown that his body won't hold up to the rigors of an NBA season at a young age. Do you think there's any GM out there that thinks his injury problems will get better with age?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> I'll let you guys pull the age card out because you love to do it and you got me there, but that still really has no bearing on the discussion we had, and he ended up agreeing with my assertion in the end, so at this point you're just meandering the conversation.


I just jumped back in and probably missed a few pages. I don't know what you guys were talking about.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Maybe he would of turned into a dentist like he use to talk about ?


He should have turned into someones grandfather. That is what he looks like.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

R-Star said:


> If he had 1 major injury, I would agree. But Oden has shown that his body won't hold up to the rigors of an NBA season at a young age. Do you think there's any GM out there that thinks his injury problems will get better with age?


Yes....

Several NBA players who have sustained major injuries, not just one have been written off, but have turned into impact players on the court. I definitely believe Oden's real hurdle will be mental, and not physical. I'm hoping a guy like Kenyon Martin who has had two microfacture surgeries on both knees reach out to Oden, and help him keep his eye on the prize.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

R-Star said:


> I just jumped back in and probably missed a few pages. I don't know what you guys were talking about.


Not referring to you at all, moreso Jamel and Najee who pointed out Willis and Eaton did have accolades, as if in the grand scheme that means anything directly related to the conversation in this thread.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HB said:


> Hopefully you mean on defense.


I mean period. Overall. You take Mutombo over Hibbert or Lopez.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Yes....
> 
> Several NBA players who have sustained major injuries, not just one have been written off, but have turned into impact players on the court. I definitely believe Oden's real hurdle will be mental, and not physical. I'm hoping a guy like Kenyon Martin who has had two microfacture surgeries on both knees reach out to Oden, and help him keep his eye on the prize.


Or Oden could talk to Jon Bender and see if he has any advice for him.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> Not referring to you at all, moreso Jamel and Najee who pointed out Willis and Eaton did have accolades, as if in the grand scheme that means anything directly related to the conversation in this thread.


I probably side with you on this from the portions I've read. Some guys in here are really underrating who Oden was seen as being coming into the NBA. It's easy for them to sit back now and say "I knew he was overhyped", but bottom line is, is he was seen as the next great big man. That's not disputable, not matter what any of these guys want to say.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I mean period. Overall. You take Mutombo over Hibbert or Lopez.


I hope hes not going to argue you on that, because its pretty simple that Mutumbo in his prime was head and shoulders above Hibbert and Lopez.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

R-Star said:


> Or Oden could talk to Jon Bender and see if he has any advice for him.


Right, but Greg Oden's other knee he had microfracture surgery is considered stronger by all tests done by Portlands medical staff now than it was before the surgery. The surgery Oden is having now is on his other knee. I believe Oden will come back physically just fine, but it's the mental hurdle that will be Odens biggest mountain to climb.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Right, but Greg Oden's other knee he had microfracture surgery is considered stronger by all tests done by Portlands medical staff now than it was before the surgery. The surgery Oden is having now is on his other knee. I believe Oden will come back physically just fine, but it's the mental hurdle that will be Odens biggest mountain to climb.


The doctors can say whatever they want. You don't destroy both knees in 4 seasons as basically a teenager and come back physically stronger from it.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

First someone says he's not injury prone, then someone says he'll come back just fine...and people want to jump on me and SP for saying he had potential?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

You guys should know better than that Dre. Oden has always sucked and you're stupid if you don't agree.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

R-Star said:


> The doctors can say whatever they want. You don't destroy both knees in 4 seasons as basically a teenager and come back physically stronger from it.


Not sure about that one, in an interview Kenyon Martin gave, he said physically he's been fine after the Microfracture surgery. He also stated, that it's the mental battle that's most difficult to overcome. Which I'm going to assume is initially getting over the down side to going under the knife, getting through the rigors of rehab, and eventually learning to trust your body to play at full speed. Which are things with Odens injury history Im sure will be one hell of a hurdle to climb.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

I'll agree it won't be easy, but in my eyes hes proven himself to be injury prone and I don't think that will ever change.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I don't know how anyone can reasonably expect Oden to return to the court and play for any extended period of time. It's not going to happen. It's hard enough for a durable 7 foot 280 pound guy to stay healthy, so for a fragile player like Oden to do it is just improbable. 

Arguing his potential at this point is kind of pointless now because of these season ending surgeries, but it's the same people on each side. So nothing has changed, and nothing will I'm guessing.


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## MojoPin (Oct 10, 2008)

23AJ said:


> Not sure about that one, in an interview Kenyon Martin gave, he said physically he's been fine after the Microfracture surgery. He also stated, that it's the mental battle that's most difficult to overcome. Which I'm going to assume is initially getting over the down side to going under the knife, getting through the rigors of rehab, and eventually learning to trust your body to play at full speed. Which are things with Odens injury history Im sure will be one hell of a hurdle to climb.


The knees are weaker no matter what. After injury and surgery, the knee can never be returned to its complete original, never-injured form; it can only be repaired. Doctors arent gods. So in all likelihood, yes, he will continue to have these injuries. 

There's a strong possibility that he could go down as a bigger bust than Kwame Brown.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I guess I agree with R-Star (first time ever, probably) that it's hard to consider a guy a bust when injuries/circumstances beyond their control were their downfall. Bust should be reserved for guys who had all the cards in their favor, and couldn't do a damn thing with the opportunity. Kwame, Morrison, Olowokandi, etc.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

R-Star said:


> The doctors can say whatever they want. You don't destroy both knees in 4 seasons as basically a teenager and come back physically stronger from it.


No, they actually do get stronger after surgery.. But that doesn't excuse the fact that dude has chronic knees... (which ppl on here will probably still want to refuse to acknowledge, even when the evidence has been right in front of them).
:2ti:


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Najee said:


> Once again, purposely misrepresenting the statement as well as putting words in people's mouths in order to think you're making a point. You're better than that, dude.
> 
> Greg Oden's rebounding rate is tempered by the very relevant fact that he will have missed three out of four games since he came in the NBA. And in the 25 percent of the available games in which he has played, he spends more than half of them on the bench because of foul trouble. What part of that is not making sense?
> 
> ...


you do realize that your argument is solely based on his injuries and not his talent right? We all agree that he isn't an NBA star but he could have been.in the few game he played, he improved at every turn and by the time he got injured again, it was clear that the man had a lot of talent. Had he been healthy, he would have been a big problem for opposing teams.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

This whole Oden debate is fascinating. I believe this is what the Sunni/Shiite divide looked like in the beginning.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Not a bust, but MOST DEFINITELY a disappointment


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Blu said:


> Lol, there is no discussion to be had here Dre. Proof is in the pudding. What is your case for Oden? *I like Oden*, but let's just be real here. How is he underrated? I just do not understand these romanticized theories, based on what i saw from him. Ppl confuse his potential w/ what he actually was.


You don't like Oden, and you, and everyone else here, knows it. Why even bother pretending?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Yea, after going off for as long as he did about how the refs cheated for him, its pretty pathetic for him to pull the "I like Oden" card.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

I love how some on here pretend that they know _for sure_ that he will never be healthy enough to contribute.

Fact is you guys have no clue how healthy he will be in the future. Sure it is logical to assume that because of his prior history of injuries he will continue to get injured. But it is certainly not a guarantee and really only the simplest way of looking at his situation. None of us really know much about his precise situation to have much of an educated opinion on the matter anyways. 

All I can go off of is that this surgery is supposed to correct his current injury and make him healthy enough to play in the NBA.
So if after this surgery he is healthy enough to play then I believe he will still have an impact in this league. Yeah I realize that the risk for him getting hurt again is higher than for other players, but it simply does not mean he will definitely continue to suffer major injuries. I just can't say because a guy has missed 75% of his games that he will never play again, or accomplish anything.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

R-Star said:


> I probably side with you on this from the portions I've read. Some guys in here are really underrating who Oden was seen as being coming into the NBA. It's easy for them to sit back now and say "I knew he was overhyped", but bottom line is, is he was seen as the next great big man. That's not disputable, not matter what any of these guys want to say.


I don't believe anyone is disputing the hype of Greg Oden being billed by some as "the next great big man." What has been discussed is Oden's actual performance and evaluation as a player. 

What is really the heart of the issue is the people who blindly jumped onto the hype bandwagon and roundly criticized those who didn't buy into it. Now that Oden was clearly not that player for a variety of reasons (primarily based on his performance), the jock riders are still coming up with ridiculous rationalizations (Adam) to deflection/twisting words to change the argument (rocketeer).

Personally, I believe in evaluating players on what they have done instead of coming up with subjective hypotheticals on what I believe a person can or cannot be. I based my opinion on what Oden did and showed, not based on others' projections. I could care less what people thought Oden could become or could do; I don't have to buy some social pressure idea out of laziness.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Hyperion said:


> you do realize that your argument is solely based on his injuries and not his talent right? We all agree that he isn't an NBA star but he could have been.in the few game he played, he improved at every turn and by the time he got injured again, it was clear that the man had a lot of talent. Had he been healthy, he would have been a big problem for opposing teams.


My argument is based on seeing Greg Oden play since his high school days. It's not based on watercooler hype or social pressure. My opinion of Greg Oden is based on seeing him play -- and what I saw was a player who: 

* was so mechanical offensively that he couldn't be a consistent scorer;

* potentially could be a standout defender, but had an incredible propensity for drawing fouls;

* had some questionable issues with intensity and focus;

* a good athlete, but not some athletic wunderkind (see Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, David Robinson, Shaquille O'Neal) that can overcome some of these major obstacles or the lack of actual skill.

Sorry, but I've been following the NBA since the mid-70s, when Kareem was in his prime. I have a good idea of what it's like to see players of various success and what commonalities that lead to a player's success. I evaluated Oden for what he was, not for what the watercooler hype thought he could be. 

What I saw was a guy who as-is was basically a taller, bigger Emeka Okafor. As-is, Oden had far more in common with guys like Tree Rollins, Alton Lister and Erick Dampier. It showed in his performances in college and the NBA; the guy was inconsistent, likely to put up 25 points and 12 rebounds one game and foul out in six minutes the next.

What was especially telling to me is that the Oden that was in high school was essentially the same Oden that is in the NBA. He's added nothing to his game, and it doesn't seem like he's interested in adding anything to his game. 

There is nothing keeping the guy from working on his post game or reduce his fouling tendencies in rehab. Pretty much what you hear about Oden the past couple of years is dumb stuff -- having nude pictures published or he has an alcohol problem or how he refuses to see if his injuries are more serious and systemic. It doesn't sound like a player who is focused to me.

If Oden overcame those things and actually became the player some of the watercooler disciples romanticize about, I'll give him his due. But don't expect me to give him some huge benefit of the doubt based on some ground-floor groupies who want to say they were Oden fans before he hit it big. I can name more skilled and talented players that Oden who didn't pan out and you don't hear me building statues in their names.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Greg Oden, CPA

lol


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Shoulda taken Roy Hibbert


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Roy Hibbert first? Pretty sure they should have gone with KD.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

There was the whole positional thing, but they did have a need for a center.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Uh, not to play the age card again (I guess?) but Hibbert was drafted a year after Oden.


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## thaKEAF (Mar 8, 2004)

:2ti:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> Uh, not to play the age card again (I guess?) but Hibbert was drafted a year after Oden.


Ah pardon my ignorance then, I mispoke on this one.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Stay on topic.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

> But the Celtics, despite having the second-worst record in the league, slipped to fifth in the lottery. They flipped the pick for Ray Allen(notes), which helped lure Kevin Garnett(notes), and the franchise's 17th title soon followed. Had the Celtics landed the No. 1 pick, Rivers said, Oden would have been the choice.
> 
> "Even though everybody changes now, we were all for Oden, and I think 98 percent of the league,'' Rivers said. "But now I hear it all over our staff, I hear it everywhere, ‘Oh, no, we were Durant guys.' I don't believe that. I think we would have drafted Oden.''


Kind of funny..doesn't Ehmunro say they would've drafted Durant?



> This pick obviously wouldn't have belonged to Rivers alone, and perhaps he, Danny Ainge, and the rest of the Celtics brass would have changed their minds in workouts or while watching yards of tape of both players. Either way, though, it's refreshing to see someone say what everyone knew in 2007: Greg Oden was one of the best big-man prospects in a generation, and having him on your team was considered the easiest path possible to winning multiple championships.
> 
> This is not hyperbole. Before the lottery, Celtics fans were Photoshopping Oden into Celtics gear and even buying custom jerseys with his name on the back. When they missed out on the lottery, they acted as if they were cursed for not having won a championship for the impossibly long period of 20 years. Missing out on Oden was a huge disappointment for every team that tanked in 2006-07 and lost the lottery.
> 
> Kevin Durant is obviously one of the league's brightest stars right now, but let's not have his greatness overshadow the immense promise Oden once held. These two players will be linked forever, no matter what happens in the rest of Oden's career. Let's just remember that, once upon a time, they were both supposed to own the league for a generation. It was not an obvious choice at the time.


100%

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ba...ngage-in-revisionist-Greg-Oden?urn=nba-287534


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

R-Star said:


> Shut up Basel. I'll talk about whatever I want.


Edit: I'll leave it open; deleted all the stupid posts in here, though.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Ras said:


> You don't like Oden, and you, and everyone else here, knows it. Why even bother pretending?


How are you going to tell me who I do and do not like? fohsmhlol


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Basel said:


> Edit: I'll leave it open; deleted all the stupid posts in here, though.


That was unnecessary, and I disagree. 

Maybe we should go back and delete any post you've made in threads that aren't 100% in context of the threat title. Hows about we do that?


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## thaKEAF (Mar 8, 2004)

:yep: I agree with Aura-Star


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

R-Star said:


> That was unnecessary, and I disagree.
> 
> Maybe we should go back and delete any post you've made in threads that aren't 100% in context of the threat title. Hows about we do that?


Go for it.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Dre™ said:


> Kind of funny..doesn't Ehmunro say they would've drafted Durant?


That was the scuttlebutt in Boston, and if you remember Ainge did get fined for openly consorting with Durant's family during the NCAA season. So it seemed terribly logical to assume that the rumours, which predated the incident, were true.


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