# Futuristxen gets on the Fire Mike Brown Bandwagon



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I've probably defended this guy the most, had the most patience with him. But if Ferry isn't going to upgrade the roster, then he needs to upgrade the system.

We clearly cannot play in the halfcourt. Having Eric Snow walk the ball up the floor, hand it to James, and have him hold the ball for ten seconds while waiting for the offense to go, simply is not NBA quality offense.

It was five years ago.

Five years ago, Mike Brown could have been coach of the year with this style.

But today's NBA is run and gun. Even the Spurs run these days. Every top team in the NBA runs an uptempo game.

Philosophy needs to be changed.

And I think it will. I expect looking at the schedule and the body language, that the Cavs are about to reel off a 8 or 9 game losing streak.

And with Rick Adelman sitting out there without a job, I think Ferry will be forced(by Lebron) to make a move.


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## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

What took you so long... Mike Brown is a bum.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

TyGuy said:


> What took you so long...


I'm an optimist.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

LOL future. Mike Brown knows his defense but his rotations all seem 5 minutes slow and he's never changes the starting lineup or the dumb bring in Marshall/Jones halfway through the 1st quarter.

Then again can any coach grow Gooden a brain or Hughes a heart?


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

The problem is that Mike Brown has the right philosophy. You have to win with defense first. We are the best defensive team in the East right now. We, for the most part, are playing very good defense.

The problem is we can't shut teams out.


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## Larry Hughes for Retirement (Jul 5, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> I'm an optimist.


I also am holding out hoping our defense philosophy will out weigh our offensive struggles, but it wont happen. 

Larry-Lebron-AV-Drew-Gibson-Sasha are all built to run the floor. The bad part is only 3 of those guys start, and the other two (Z,Snow) are encapable of running the floor, so you almost have to design it at a slow pace for Z and Snow.

Its a shame 3 years ago Zydrunas was a hot item, now two PF teams are doing alot better these days.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

About time Future


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

^ I think Z has actually playing well. You don't need a center who can run to be a fastbreaking team (i.e. old decrepit Kareem and Showtime) but you definitely need a PG.

Andre Miller?


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Ferry should make a HARD push for Andre Miller. He's not a perfect fit, but he would fill the need we're looking for as a guy who can direct the offense.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

If things continue to go the way they are going (losing, getting worse play out of Snow, nothing seeming to work), I fail to see a reason why Gibson shouldn't just start getting the lion's share of the minutes and we simply try to play a different style of basketball. Even if we suck at doing so, at least some sort of adjustment would be made. I can't stand to sit around seeing the same things tried over and over it. Insanity is often stated as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Well, now's not the time to give into insanity. Adjust or die; adjust or die impaled on your own sword: a sword named pride.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Gibby didn't have a great game but I like his instincths: he doesn't jack up bad 3's like Marshall and Jones. He looks to drive and kick instead when the oppurtunity presents itself and he really has great potential on D. Nice footwork and good instincts on that side of the ball. He's a keeper but I don't know if he'll mature fast enough to be the starter this year but if we do start sucking badly (correction if we continue to suck badly) then start him. This team needs a shakeup


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## Bron_Melo_ROY (Apr 12, 2004)

I would love Rick Adelman because he brings a structured and successful offense but I definitely want to keep Mike Brown's defensive philosophy. But that being said, I want Adelman as the coach for his offense and in game coaching.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Look at the Denver Nuggets. Last season they played a style very similiar to what we are playing now. Slow down, defense first basketball. Now they still play good defense, but they try and get as many shots up at the basket at they can, and now they are having a much better time of it.

The Cavs goal should be to get up as many shots at the rim as possible. There are some scorers on this team. They just have to be given the green light.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

Maybe replace him with another Brown? hint, hint.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Yeah because Larry Brown helped turn the Knicks into a powerhouse last year. Dude refuses to play young players. Doesn't run. He's like Mike Brown, but cranky, and with less sound defensive schemes.

OH! And he and Lebron don't get along.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

I thought I'd NEVER say this but Adelman might be good for this team. Mr. Playoff Collapse himself brings some qualities (offense, veteran coach) who would be a good fit.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

You know another problem with Brown, the Cavs *NEVER* dictate the style of play. If we play the Nets, it's a high scoring 100+ game. If we play the Pistons, it's a grind it out low 80s game. Brown is a reactionary coach, he never imposes his own style.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Benedict_Boozer said:


> You know another problem with Brown, the Cavs *NEVER* dictate the style of play. If we play the Nets, it's a high scoring 100+ game. If we play the Pistons, it's a grind it out low 80s game. Brown is a reactionary coach, he never imposes his own style.


That requires an offensive identity which we don't have. I'm so jealous of the Lakers having Phil Jackson right now: what balls to sit Kobe against the Wolves for example


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

Larry Brown is the best play writer I've ever seen. You all wouldn't be standing around if he were on your team. Ohh, and you all don't have any (significant) young players so it's not a problem (and he played numerous rookies last year anyways).


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## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

Larry brown would be fine if the guy wasnt just a one night stand with every nba franchise.

Rick Adelman is the best available coach and is a top tier coach for that matter.


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## Larry Hughes for Retirement (Jul 5, 2004)

I know our offense sucks. But is it really our coach that is holding us back, would a new coach help Larry and Marshall hit open jumpers? Can a new coach take Marshall to the 'holy grail' to revive his youth? would a new coach give Gooden a mind? Would a new coach have Snow become the player he was in 98'?

Is it the coach or his players ability?

Granted this give it too Lebron and stand there is awful, but what player deserves to get shots right now other than Lebron? 

This is the only defense for Mike Brown, our players just look a step behind everything, but maybe a new coach with a fresh attitude and outlook on the game would help.

But a playoff team shouldnt fire and hire a new coach, esp. a team that should be contending for the tops of the Eastern Conference.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

all offenses begin with a PG. the fact that eric snow is the team's PG says it all IMO.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Maybe it would be as simple as getting a proper point guard?

Popovich always had excellent point guards. And supposedly for the defensive system Brown coaches, point guard defense is key. Offensively, we need someone who can get the ball and push it up the floor. It takes Snow too long to get the ball past half court. Even without pressure. Lebron, Larry, AV, Drew, these are track runners. Even Danny Gibson looks like a good open court player. Damon Jones favorite shot is the spot up 3 on the break.

Baron Davis, Mike Bibby, Hell, even Nate Robinson--these are guys we should be looking at.

Ha. I just imagine Nate Robinson on our team it was good. There's a guy with a motor who refuses to lose. Sort of dumb though, but I'd rather him than Snow.

What about Gooden to the Knicks for Frye and Robinson or something like that?


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

What has happened to the Cavs ? They aren't playing well now but it is fixable. The biggest need is a PG that is pass first. How about Andre Miller from Philly. I'm sure he would love to playing on a championship caliber team and he played well the last time he was in Cleveland. A quality PG would help a lot but there still needs to be something else. Your bigs are best in a half court offense and LeBron and Hughes are best running. Today's NBA is about running. I think you need to replace Gooden and the big boy with players who can run the court. Gooden just seems too inconsistent. He plays like someone whose mind wanders too easily.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

hell, i would take steve francis at this point...


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

c p 9 said:


> hell, i would take steve francis at this point...


I was thinking the same thing: at least Francis isn't afraid to mix it up and actually tries to finish even if it is after he dribble for like 20 seconds


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

c p 9 said:


> hell, i would take steve francis at this point...


Sign me up.


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## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

c p 9 said:


> hell, i would take steve francis at this point...





Pioneer10 said:


> I was thinking the same thing: at least Francis isn't afraid to mix it up and actually tries to finish even if it is after he dribble for like 20 seconds


Finally people start seeing what I've seen!

I've posted a KG to Indiana trade idea that actually involves Cleveland... It also have Steve Francis.

My actual idea (yes, one of my beloved 4-team trades! ):


Indiana trade JO and Marquis Daniels to Minnesota; trade SJax to NY;

Minnesota trade KG and Troy Hudson to Indiana; trade Mark Blount to Cleveland;

Cleveland trade Eric Snow to NY and Zydrunas Ilgauskas to Minnesota; trade Ira Newble to Indiana;

NY trade Steve Francis to Cleveland;


Indiana get in KG their true superstar; They won't miss SJax and Quis much, because they can put Granger to start as a SG, and use Saras as his backup (since Hudson can play the PG); Newble is a defensive SG/SF that was included to fill salaries;

Minny lose KG, but still get a pretty good player in JO, and a good C in Ilgauskas; A really good frontcourt; They solve their PG logjam, while getting a useful player in Quis.

Cleveland promote Varejão as his starting C, while getting a fine scoring backup C in Mark Blount. They get in Steve Francis a pretty good PG, who isn't afraid to shoot, and I think that he can fit well with Hughes style, and may be more willing to be the 2nd option, deferring to Lebron James.

NY get rid of their scoring PG backcourt by trading Francis, acquiring a defensive one in Snow (who is a good veteran leader also), and get in SJax a good scoring option to play SF; (And he can still help in some future brawl fights! :biggrin: )


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

That's....kind of a good trade...actually.

I actually like Steve Francis with the Cavs because sure he's an idiot at basketball, but so was Jeff Mcinnis. Just let Lebron do all the heavy thinking out there, you concentrate on putting up 15-19ppg. Plus Francis isn't a sieve defensively.

And getting rid of Z to put a frontcourt of Verejao and Gooden out there more often would go a long ways to making us a running team.

Could you do this trade without KG or JO moving anywhere? With just SJax, Z, and Francis being the principles? Z to Indiana, SJax to New York, and Francis to us? With maybe Indiana kicking us Maceo Baston or something and a 2nd rounder?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

And I don't really like Andre Miller. He's not a very good shooter, more of a slasher, and he kind of hogs the ball. Francis does the same things, but he has more potential defensively, and is more athletic overall.


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## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> And getting rid of Z to put a frontcourt of VArejao and Gooden out there more often would go a long ways to making us a running team.
> 
> Could you do this trade without KG or JO moving anywhere? With just SJax, Z, and Francis being the principles? Z to Indiana, SJax to New York, and Francis to us? With maybe Indiana kicking us Maceo Baston or something and a 2nd rounder?



Indy would need to include another contract. It can be even better for Cavs without JO and KG included. But I don't see Indy wanting to put Jeff Foster in a trade for Z.


But anyways, it work cap wise:

Cavs trade Z, 2nd rounder and Pavlovic to Indiana; trade Snow to NY;
Indy trade Jeff Foster to Cleveland and SJax to NY;
NY trade Steve Francis to Cleveland;


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## Larry Hughes for Retirement (Jul 5, 2004)

Mike Brown does have this going for him.

The Cavs have definitely made it difficult for opponents to score this season. They rank fifth in the NBA in field-goal percentage defense (44.3) and fourth in points allowed (92.5), and they are second (behind Utah) in overall rebound margin. Cleveland also rarely gives up easy points, standing sixth in the league in opponents' fast-break points


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Mike Brown will likely _become _a very very good caoch, particularly since his defense is so good. Right now he just can't seem to have the ball to sit veterans down and make quick in game substitions.

If we weren't in a win now mentality then we could sit throught this but he's got a lot to learn on offense


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Wesley for Retirement said:


> Mike Brown does have this going for him.
> 
> The Cavs have definitely made it difficult for opponents to score this season. They rank fifth in the NBA in field-goal percentage defense (44.3) and fourth in points allowed (92.5), and they are second (behind Utah) in overall rebound margin. Cleveland also rarely gives up easy points, standing sixth in the league in opponents' fast-break points


Steve Kerr made a lot of good points in that article, but he didn't touch on one of our biggest problems. The fact that we don't have an offensive system is a large part of the reason we're shooting such a low percentage.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Got to love this if you're Mike Brown:



> Before the game, James thought he knew how to get the Cavs out of their offensive funk. "We've just got to get back to playing basketball, and not worry about all the Xs and Os,"


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=261223005


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

I've never like Mike Brown. With the way things are now he definately needs to go! Andre Miller wouldn't be a horrible idea either.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=261223005



> After the quarter ended, James spent a few minutes in the huddle with Cleveland coach Mike Brown and his assistants before joining his teammates on the bench. He was clearly upset, and during a timeout early in the fourth, James again approached Brown for a brief discussion.
> 
> "I was just trying to figure things out to see how we could get it going on the offensive end," said James, who insisted he wasn't frustrated. "Our offense is killing us right now. In the past it had been our defense. We've never had problems on offense like we're having, but we finally figured it out tonight."


I think Lebron is getting frustrated with the level of competence of the coaches with respect to the offense, no?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Well: it's not like we ran plays to get Lebron those shots. He sort of just started gunning away, lucky for us he was on.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

More viewpoints suggest Lebron ain't happy:



> *CLEVELAND - It was the end of the third quarter of the game Saturday, and LeBron James spent most of the timeout in the huddle with the Cavaliers' coaches.*
> *The rest of the team waited on the bench.*
> *You don't see that every game, a player in the coaches' huddle for that long. This is not a sign that James is attempting to take over the team, but it was obvious that he had a message that he wanted coach Mike Brown to hear.*
> He was just sick of losing. The Cavs were behind the Orlando Magic by three points. They carried the burden of a three-game losing streak into the game.
> ...


http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/basketball/nba/cleveland_cavaliers/16311436.htm

As I pointed out before it's just doesn't make sense that when you have the player best equipped in the league for a fast break offense that we draq into our offense.

I've heard complaints about Z but the Lakers ran all the time playing an old decrepit Kareem. This falls directly into the hands of Ferry and Brown playing Snow at PG and not even thinking about running


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

It's good to keep in mind Mike Brown's positives:


> *IMPOSTER CAVS GM*: As some of you may know, the NBA moved most of the media away from courtside to seats that are farther up in the crowd. This had led to a few interactions that have been, um ... interesting.
> The best one yet came tonight -- and I'm dead serious, this really happened -- at the Cavs-Hawks game in Atlanta. A little girl came up to me before the start of the third quarter, pen and paper in hand, and said, "Mr. Ferry, can I have your autograph?"
> *WHAT BROWN CAN DO:* Mike Brown is taking some heat because of Cleveland's offensive struggles, but he's completely remade this team defensively. Drew Gooden and Zydrunas Ilgauskas are making efforts they never would have two or thee seasons ago; Ilgauskas, for instance, went to the floor for a ball three times tonight (I'm not talking about the times he fell down, either -- just when he was diving after loose balls). Overall, Cleveland is fourth in the NBA in Defensive Efficiency, and may move up after holding the Hawks to 78 tonight. They'll probably drop a bit as a weak early schedule gets more difficult, but it's still a big improvement.
> *HAIR DON'T:* Somebody needs to tell Scot Pollard that people will always notice you if you're 7-feet tall; there's really no need to have a mohawk on top of that. Just a suggestion.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-061228


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## Larry Hughes for Retirement (Jul 5, 2004)

Those are some great defense of stats in that post, Mike Brown is really doing a great job on that end. 

Could it be his personel half the time that makes the defense look great and offense look bad, we really dont have a lineup other than (gibson,larry,bron,av,Z) that our defense and offense personel on the floor is at its best?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Wesley for Retirement said:


> Those are some great defense of stats in that post, Mike Brown is really doing a great job on that end.
> 
> Could it be his personel half the time that makes the defense look great and offense look bad, we really dont have a lineup other than (gibson,larry,bron,av,Z) that our defense and offense personel on the floor is at its best?


I think that's part of the problem. Also to be fair to Brown, Hughes injury/overall lack of production really kills our offense. Then again he's attached to Snow so it's a problem of both Brown and personnel


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

john wooden couldn't win a championship with the mish-mash of talent on the cleveland roster. mike brown's a scapegoat just like silas was. 

get a real pg, a center that doesn't plod, and a pf that can walk and chew gum at the same time, then maybe, just maybe the cav can utilize lebron and hughes, and to a lesser extent brown and gibson *properly*; thorougbreds being asked to play like mastodons.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

BULLHITTER said:


> john wooden couldn't win a championship with the mish-mash of talent on the cleveland roster. mike brown's a scapegoat just like silas was.
> 
> get a real pg, a center that doesn't plod, and a pf that can walk and chew gum at the same time, then maybe, just maybe the cav can utilize lebron and hughes, and to a lesser extent brown and gibson *properly*; thorougbreds being asked to play like mastodons.


The only personnel problems on our team are point guard and Larry Hughes playing like a girl. 

Larry showed some improvement last game.

Our pg situation won't be resolved unless we make a trade or Gibson starts lighting it up, getting big minutes.

Mike Brown isn't a scapegoat. Almost everyone is giving him credit where it's due (our vastly improved offense) and giving him criticism where it's due (our rather pathetic looking offense). 

There are some Cavs fans that are overreacting, especially after a loss. I sometimes fall into this category, as well. But there's no reason to believe that Mike Brown isn't part of the reason we have trouble scoring the ball.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

It's more Brown's insistence on starting Snow and playing him so many minutes with LBJ/Mr. Glass/Z that is the problem IMO. 

Snow should be a defensive specialist brought off the bench, his role is *WAY* too big on this team. You have to have at least the *threat* of a shooter out there, we've seen this crap for 3 years now with teams doubling off our guards.


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> More viewpoints suggest Lebron ain't happy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LeBron will be a legend as a coach I bet. It seems like LeBron's running the team rather than the coaches and the GM.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Also just to add to my prior post on just how poorly Snow is playing offensively, take a look at this:

Eric Snow - *27.1%* eFG on jumpers; 55% of his attempts; assisted on 84% of these shots. 

Daniel Gibson - *51.8%* eFG on jumpers; *79%* of his attempts; assisted on 82% of these shots. 

Amazing nothing has been done about this. It's not a surprise our offense is stalling when you consider how teams are defending us. If Brown wants to run this motion offense, Snow's role has to be reduced. 

source: www.82games.com


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

4BiddenKnight said:


> LeBron will be a legend as a coach I bet. It seems like LeBron's running the team rather than the coaches and the GM.


Player-GM-Coach!

That would be an incredible wear on an individual. You would like...never be able to go home.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Benedict_Boozer said:


> Also just to add to my prior post on just how poorly Snow is playing offensively, take a look at this:
> 
> Eric Snow - *27.1%* eFG on jumpers; 55% of his attempts; assisted on 84% of these shots.
> 
> ...



Thing is, the Cavs are looking at these same stats supposedly. That's what Rosenbaum is there for. I don't know why Brown has been so stubborn on his offense. But I think it has to do with his single-mindedness on his defense. It makes me wonder if he isn't confident fully as a head coach yet, so he is fixating on the one thing he knows he does at an NBA level, which is coach defense. It's astounding how good he's made the defense honestly. Especially in so short of time. He is making Lebron into a good defender. So you'd like to think it will pay dividends down the road. I mean honestly, if they get on a roll offensively, the way they are playing defensively, they could go on a huge win streak.

I think this long road trip will go a long ways to making this team. We've yet to have a long road trip, and those trips are when teams figure themselves out.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Thing is, the Cavs are looking at these same stats supposedly. *That's what Rosenbaum is there for.* I don't know why Brown has been so stubborn on his offense. But I think it has to do with his single-mindedness on his defense. It makes me wonder if he isn't confident fully as a head coach yet, so he is fixating on the one thing he knows he does at an NBA level, which is coach defense. It's astounding how good he's made the defense honestly. Especially in so short of time. He is making Lebron into a good defender. So you'd like to think it will pay dividends down the road. I mean honestly, if they get on a roll offensively, the way they are playing defensively, they could go on a huge win streak.
> 
> I think this long road trip will go a long ways to making this team. We've yet to have a long road trip, and those trips are when teams figure themselves out.


It's entirely possible that Rosenbaum is relaying all of his information to Brown, but Brown is just ignoring it. Probably for all of the reasons you talked about. Rosenbaum is a very good statistician, so I'm quite confident he's aware of our offensive situation.

It's just a matter of whether or not Brown feels comfortable taking his advice. 

But yeah, you gotta give credit to Brown's defensive scheme. Sure, our offense is abysmal to watch. But remember how it felt to watch our defense give up layup after layup? That was 10x worse. 

At least Lebron can somewhat bail us out on offense. In the last few years, our defense was a sieve.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Benedict_Boozer said:


> Also just to add to my prior post on just how poorly Snow is playing offensively, take a look at this:
> 
> Eric Snow - *27.1%* eFG on jumpers; 55% of his attempts; assisted on 84% of these shots.
> 
> ...


 What's crazy is how many times these guys are assisted on there shot. None of our points can create any offense by themselves. Compare this to everyone else in the starting lineup and AV: all there assisted shot numbers are below 70%

Snow ain't going anywhere from the starting lineup unless it's a trade. As future said, defense is Mike Brown's calling card and Snow might be in some ways a message to everybody else that defense comes first. It's costing us games but that might be part of the mindset

It would be nice to trade for a guy like Andre Miller because that will get Mike Brown off the hook so to speak. Plus Miller isn't a bad defender (not great but not bad) and he can create his own shot by pushing the ball


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

The thing that is going to get Dan Gibson as the starting PG is going to be his defense. He knows this too. And seems to work really hard at that end. He just doesn't know the veteran tricks that Snow knows as far as how to play guys. It's just straight hustle and movement for him on that end right now.

But I can see by the end of the year Dan closing games for us ala Andy last year. I don't see any reason why Dan won't end up a Coach Brown favorite as he progresses. He could be Coach Brown's Tony Parker.

Though, remember when Popovich had the balls to start Tony Parker in his rookie year for good or bad. I don't know if Brown was on the staff for that. But if I remember right, he came out of training camp and said "This is my point guard" and started him over I think Antonio Daniels.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

The thing that is going to get Dan Gibson as the starting PG is going to be his defense. He knows this too. And seems to work really hard at that end. He just doesn't know the veteran tricks that Snow knows as far as how to play guys. It's just straight hustle and movement for him on that end right now.

But I can see by the end of the year Dan closing games for us ala Andy last year. I don't see any reason why Dan won't end up a Coach Brown favorite as he progresses. He could be Coach Brown's Tony Parker.

Though, remember when Popovich had the balls to start Tony Parker in his rookie year for good or bad. I don't know if Brown was on the staff for that. But if I remember right, he came out of training camp and said "This is my point guard" and started him over I think Antonio Daniels.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

I don't know why but Boobie appears to have regressed a bit on the offensive end. The good thing I guess is despite his recent mediocre performance that they're sticking with him


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Pioneer10 said:


> I don't know why but Boobie appears to have regressed a bit on the offensive end. The good thing I guess is despite his recent mediocre performance that they're sticking with him


I noticed this. He seems gun shy for some reason all the sudden and is turning the ball over. His defense is earning him continued PT but his offensive game looks noticeably worse.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Another big gripe I have with Brown that isn't getting better is why the hell can't we get a good shoot after a TO. I almost don't want a TO at the end of games because the play we run usually results in Snow taking a jumper or Lebron jacking a long 3


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## Larry Hughes for Retirement (Jul 5, 2004)

Well we have to give him his credit after the performace against the Bucks, the grinding it out great defense against the Spurs, and wednesday night game (back to back) win over the Celtics.

I must say, you have to admit since about the 24th game he realized we have to involve Big Z and he has taken off as well has the team, when he is active and playing well so do we, and thats in part to Mike Brown getting him involved early and often. 

Also our defense is leaps and bounds better than last year.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

It was a long overdue adjustment to back to the post but he gets credit for doing it. I would also like to push Lebron more into the post which they've also been trying to do. Brown should get huge props for his defense.

I still have issues with the offense (a Lebron 3 point heave was the difference in agame against Boston w/o Pierce yikes) but I'm not sure that will get any better as long as Snow is the starter. To me when evaluating Brown, I would like to see two areas of specific improvemtn which I think he has a big influence on:

1) Post timeout performance: we never ever score after a timeout and our play more often then not leads to a desperation heave.

3) 3rd quarter performance: this is directly related to adjustment and we've consistently gotten crushed in 3rd


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

I think Brown needs to put away the reigns on Lebron a little bit. I'm all for structured offense, but we don't have that right now.

Sometimes, we need to just "unleash" Lebron on the other team, if you know what I mean. We kind of did at the beginning of the third quarter against Boston, and it was one of the few 3rd quarters we've actually significantly outscored our opponent.

I think we should try to develop our offense and run plays like we are. But until we can execute like a team like the Spurs or Mavs, we should have a contingency plan for when the other team goes on a run and we struggle to score.

On those big runs, I say we sub Gibson in for Snow and let Lebron go crazy. He's shown he can effectively score and create open shots for Gibson on his own when we let him, so if we're struggling to score, we might as well do it. Instead of languishing with whatever the hell we're doing now. 

As long as we don't rely on it exclusively like we did last year during the Detroit series, giving the ball to Lebron and letting him create something will work.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Also the Snow/Jones backcourt has to go. Gibson/Snow makes a lot of sense actually. Snow guards SG's much better then he does PG and Gibson is our best PG defender already IMO. Gibson can still stretch the floor as well


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Pioneer10 said:


> Also the Snow/Jones backcourt has to go. Gibson/Snow makes a lot of sense actually. Snow guards SG's much better then he does PG and Gibson is our best PG defender already IMO. Gibson can still stretch the floor as well


Yeah I agree. Gibson/Snow has worked well, in fact Brown could go with Snow/Gibson/Hughes when Lebron was out and it would work better than bringing in DJ because of the defensive matchups. 

Really when you think about it our lineups don't make alot of sense. DJ would work best with the starting group because he spaces the floor for Lebron/Larry/Z - he is almost always out there when we go on big runs.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

This probably deserves a bump


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## Larry Hughes for Retirement (Jul 5, 2004)

Alot of homers on this board, we love them we hate them. One game in the mix of 82 this season, I'd rather have a great defensive team than a average defense and above average offense (us last year) come playoff time.

Look at the Pistons and Spurs they have never made it look pretty, but having rings on their fingres and championship trophies are probably worth the 82 boring regular season games the fans watched.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Wesley for Retirement said:


> Alot of homers on this board, we love them we hate them. One game in the mix of 82 this season, I'd rather have a great defensive team than a average defense and above average offense (us last year) come playoff time.
> 
> Look at the Pistons and Spurs they have never made it look pretty, but having rings on their fingres and championship trophies are probably worth the 82 boring regular season games the fans watched.


Pistons and Spurs when they were winning titles did not look as bad as we have for as long as we have: plus looking better meant they had more wins during the regular season as well. Homecourt helps a lot in the playoffs and it's something that we are very close to losing. Also I don't get the love them comment as the general theme this year is we aren't that good


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Wesley for Retirement said:


> Alot of homers on this board, we love them we hate them. One game in the mix of 82 this season, I'd rather have a great defensive team than a average defense and above average offense (us last year) come playoff time.
> 
> Look at the Pistons and Spurs they have never made it look pretty, but having rings on their fingres and championship trophies are probably worth the 82 boring regular season games the fans watched.


But here's the thing (and it's something Mike Brown has forgotten, as well):

Those teams that you talk about were primarily defensive teams, yes. But they also had a more than adequate offense. The offense actually ran a system with some direction and flow to it. They operated high-low in the case of the Spurs, and in the case of Detroit, they used curl plays for Rip to take his automatic midrange jumper, pass it out to Chauncey, or dump it down for an easy Wallace dunk. Sure, these were primarily defensive teams, but as we have seen they were also more than capable on offense. And neither had a starter as bad offensively as Eric Snow. No, not even Ben Wallace -- his man couldn't abandon him at will to double another player because Ben would be under the basket for an open dunk. 

This is really the problem. Mike Brown has mistaken a focus on defense and defensive indentity for being a one-dimensional team. You're not going to win being a one-dimensional team if you're one dimensional on either side of the ball. 

Defense doesn't win championships people. Defensive focus and identity coupled with offensive execution wins championships. There are too many good teams out there that can execute on the offensive and defensive side of the ball to be able to win with just one of the other. Our superstar bailing us out is the only reason we're not dead last in offensive efficiency. Even with him, we're still an abysmal 25th in the league in offensive efficency.

And there's the real problem. The Detroit Pistons of 2004, with their scary defense that held teams under 70 points like 6 games in a row or something like that couldn't win the title with this offense.

And we *definitely *can't win it with this offense.


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## Larry Hughes for Retirement (Jul 5, 2004)

Brandname said:


> But here's the thing (and it's something Mike Brown has forgotten, as well):
> 
> Those teams that you talk about were primarily defensive teams, yes. But they also had a more than adequate offense. The offense actually ran a system with some direction and flow to it. They operated high-low in the case of the Spurs, and in the case of Detroit, they used curl plays for Rip to take his automatic midrange jumper, pass it out to Chauncey, or dump it down for an easy Wallace dunk. Sure, these were primarily defensive teams, but as we have seen they were also more than capable on offense. And neither had a starter as bad offensively as Eric Snow. No, not even Ben Wallace -- his man couldn't abandon him at will to double another player because Ben would be under the basket for an open dunk.
> 
> ...


Wrong.... Pistons, Spurs, The Suns have a great offense, have yet to make it anywhere. The Wiz do the samething, yet to get anywhere. 

Remember the Mavericks under Don Nelson with Nash/Finley/Dirk they were amazing to watch as a fan, but did they ever win anything? The pistons and spurs grinded you out until you quit. 


I am just saying, we are boring to watch, terrible on offense. But the offense can be taught and brought along, these are professional athletes, but its very tough to get grown men playing for millions of dollars to get down and play defense, if it was so easy all the other teams would be doing it. You dont have too be Lebron James too play defense, Bruce Bowen can do that. But Bruce Bowen could never be Lebron James on offense, see what I am saying.? easier to come around on O than it is D


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## jsprint2b (Jan 23, 2007)

What ever Mike Brown has been trying to sale im sorry to say i think the team is at the point where there not buying anymore you can just see it on there face and here it in LBJ voice.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Wesley for Retirement said:


> Wrong.... Pistons, Spurs, The Suns have a great offense, have yet to make it anywhere. The Wiz do the samething, yet to get anywhere.
> 
> Remember the Mavericks under Don Nelson with Nash/Finley/Dirk they were amazing to watch as a fan, but did they ever win anything? The pistons and spurs grinded you out until you quit.
> 
> ...


Did you read what I wrote?

No team can win a championship on defense alone.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Wesley for Retirement said:


> Wrong.... Pistons, Spurs, The Suns have a great offense, have yet to make it anywhere. The Wiz do the samething, yet to get anywhere.
> 
> Remember the Mavericks under Don Nelson with Nash/Finley/Dirk they were amazing to watch as a fan, but did they ever win anything? The pistons and spurs grinded you out until you quit.
> 
> ...


I agree with the premise but the offensive inefficiency cannot continue. We are shooting 35-low 40's every night, struggling to get decent looks against the shot clock against every team in the NBA, including bad defensive teams like Philly or Portland. It's not just low scoring pace, it's ugly offense and terrible execution.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Benedict_Boozer said:


> I agree with the premise but the offensive inefficiency cannot continue. We are shooting 35-low 40's every night, struggling to get decent looks against the shot clock against every team in the NBA, including bad defensive teams like Philly or Portland. It's not just low scoring pace, it's ugly offense and terrible execution.


Exactly


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

jsprint2b said:


> What ever Mike Brown has been trying to sale im sorry to say i think the team is at the point where there not buying anymore you can just see it on there face and here it in LBJ voice.


Welcome to the board!


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Can anyone explain to me why you'd run a lineup like this: AV, Gibson, Snow, Jones, and Marshall? Also why no AV in the fourth? Why no Sasha suddenly?


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Pioneer10 said:


> Can anyone explain to me why you'd run a lineup like this: AV, Gibson, Snow, Jones, and Marshall? Also why no AV in the fourth? Why no Sasha suddenly?


Psh, it's not like Sasha had done anything to warrant playing time.

From reading some of your posts, you'd think Sasha was some kind of player that can spread the floor and hit open jumpers, take it strong to the hole, and defend moderately well, providing a scoring spark off the bench when everyone else is in a funk.

/sarcasm off


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## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> Can anyone explain to me why you'd run a lineup like this: AV, Gibson, Snow, Jones, and Marshall? Also why no AV in the fourth? Why no Sasha suddenly?


Yes Mike Brown is an inept headcoach, who's idea of matching teams, instead of dictating, is playing mad scientist.


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