# The Official Hoffa Thread



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I'm sorry, I just had to do it. I don't think there's a basketball player out there, for me, right now, that I want to talk about and follow the development of more than Rafael Araujo. Feel free go at it in other threads about our starting center but I wanted one thread to follow his development (this season anyway) from here on out.

We all know the story: "will never live up to being a lottery pick", "can't jump over a matchbox", etc. Thankfully, posters around here are, for the most part, still able to see what he can bring to the table, now and in the future to a greater extent. 

He's in a strange position under Sam's rotations, being one of the least played starters in the league (I would think). I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, though I do want him playing more- he is getting vital minutes with the starting unit, against starting bigs, and that definitely counts for something. 

Sam has him boxing out, playing D, and setting screens and Sam isn't just giving him developmental minutes, he's USING him. Yes, Sam's using a tight rein, but I have the feeling that in the end it will pay off. Hoffa had, and still does have, a ton of learning to do but he's not being ignored by Sam and co (I was a little worried there); that much is becoming clear.

Which brings us to his recently espoused work ethic. I think we all knew Araujo was working hard but for Mitchell to say he's has one of the greatest basketball workers he's been around says a whole hell of a lot. That's one reason why playing time (such as the garbage time available against Orlando) may not be such a big deal. Game experience is vital but practice can be just as important over the long haul.

Perhaps the biggest thing with Hoff is that he fits with this team. He's got the character, the pure strength to complement Bosh and Charlie, the work ethic to impress Mitchell. His defense is already better than most people could have hoped for after last year. 

Give the boy some more time- I always said he'll be fine by the time the allstar break rolled around- and we'll have a legitimate starting center on our hands. Or is he already? 

How did he look against the Magic? What is he doing right? What does he need to work on the most? Will he be shutting up the boo birds from here on out?


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

when he does the little things, things normally work out, but there are times he just seem nervous


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## Ballyhoo (May 30, 2003)

I wonder if the Raptors recent success will hamper Hoffa's development. They're only 3.5 games out of a playoff spot now, and with well over half the season to go there's plenty of time to make that up. If Mitchell decides the best way to win games now is not to play Hoffa then he might see reduced playing time. Hopefully Hoffa will play well enough to keep himself in the lineup.


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## TDrake (Jun 8, 2003)

I've been impressed with Hoffa's development this year. I don't know how to describe the way I see his role/impact on the team - the best I can do is say that, when he plays well, the game seems to be a lot easier for the rest of the team. 

I mean, when he misses easy shots or gets caught out of position on defence, he gets upset and that can upset the rest of the team, but as long as he does his job in a workmanlike way, the team seems to stabalize around him and play better.

I'm with Skywalker - there's no player in the game right now I find more intriguing and whom I'd rather see break out in a big way.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

I'm also really interested in Hoffa's development, but I sometimes feel he his misused or under-used. If you look at his two best games this year vs. Sacramento (22min, 14 pts, 6 reb, 1 STL, 1 TO, FG 75%, 2PF) and LAC (14 min, 8pts, 3reb, 1 STL, 2 TO, FG 66%, 2PF), these were games where he was given the ball early in the game on offence and given the chance to score. This confidence transferred over to other parts of his game, his defence was better, he was better positioned on both ends of the floor, you could just tell watching the game that his confidence was huge. Oh, and looking good against guys like Brad Miller, Brand and Kaman.
When he doesn't get the ball and he's 'used' to create space and block out, he seems to feel 'left out' of the game. That's where the importance of Calderon comes in, early in the season Jose was giving him the ball on offence, something that a lot of other players won't do, and this led to some really strong performances (beyond what the stats show). 
The fouls thing this year is ridiculous too. Only once this year has Hoffa had more than 4 fouls (5PF against SAS on Dec 23), and most games he is around 2 or 3 in his limited minutes. I mean if Sam's not going to give him a lot of minutes, you may as well let the guy get his fouls and foul out, he's a really strong guy but he's scared to be aggressive on defence, as a coach I would want my big strong guys being aggressive on defence. Most of Hoffa's fouls this year have been ticky-tack fouls that look like the result of hesitant defensive play, I hate seeing these kind of fouls because these are the kind that result in and1s. My coaches always used to say that if you're going to foul a guy make sure he doesn't get the shot, a hard foul and a soft foul both count as one foul, so let the guy play aggressive. If he is afraid of being aggressive and being bench after 2 or 3 fouls, than his defence is hesitant, leading to p*ssy fouls, garbage.
It's great that Sam 'uses' him, but he should start 'using' him in a better way to help with his confidence and development as a player.


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## aizn (Jun 19, 2005)

i think people are starting to understand that hoffa will never be a numbers guy, but he is an impact player for his teammates. in other words, he is able to move bodies out of the paint for bosh and can send a pretty clear message to the other team that he wont let you in on an easy layup. his value is obviously not worth the 8th overall pick, but he does have some impact on this team whether you guys like it or not.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

The problem with Hoffa is he is still a face to the bucket kind of player with no-low post moves to speak of.
Still can't jump over a shoe lace and still trips on painted lines, still doesn't run the floor well and still gets called on too many fouls (although, not all are his fault).

I hope to see Hoff play more games like he did against Orlando. He's a banger and we shouldn't have to run any plays for him, he can't score anyways.

He's a role players, but so was Sam.


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## 85 lakers (Dec 22, 2005)

Unless you are a relative, his college roommate, or a former teacher of his, I can't understand how or why there is so much interest in him.

When you draft college veterans, you expect them to come in and produce. He has not.

If he has an offensive move, I have not seen it.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

85 lakers said:


> Unless you are a relative, his college roommate, or a former teacher of his, I can't understand how or why there is so much interest in him.
> 
> When you draft college veterans, you expect them to come in and produce. He has not.
> 
> If he has an offensive move, I have not seen it.



He has a 10-15 ft jumper that is usually money and is great from the line. You have not been watching.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

I also remember Hoffa putting an up an under on Shaq last year and using the same move another time.....yes we don't see it all the time, but he does not get many chances. I like what Hoff does on the floor and am sure he will slowly start to be more productive. All I want from him is 6ppg and 7rpg....anything else is gravy!


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

The same people who have been pumping up Matt Bonner's development and traits, have been sh***ting all over Hoffa on this thread.
I think Hoffa has made just as much development in his game as Bonner has. And definitely works just as hard, something that people in another thread are giving Bonner so much credit for. 
Another point, everyone says it's impossible for Hoffa to progress his game because of his age (25), but everyone is pointing out Bonner's development who happens to be the same age (actually 4 months older). Development is possible at any age, what pushes development is desire, something that I have to admit is in abundance in both Bonner and Hoffa.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

Entering Dec we could discribe Hoffa as follows:

<B>"The worst player on the worst team in the league"</b>
Here we are a month later and things are looking alot different.


I personally think Hoffa could be a good peice of this team - possibly even very good. He is tough and shows signs of being a rugged interior defender. He will never be a great offensive weapon but if figures it out he could get a load of garbage points just by muscling people off the ball.

Why he might just make it?
====================
- work ethic
- size/strength
- good fundamentals
- nice low post defender

Why he might not make it?
====================
- slow
- not athletic
- alertness / intelligence seems to be a problem


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## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

Well, when you finally see him for what he is, and not what he's not, you'll realize he's quite a valuable piece to the team. 

For him to succeed, he needs to let the game come to him. Too often he screws up, and will simply make mistakes after mistakes, on a downward spiral of sorts.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

The only thing that has really puzzled me about Hoff is his total lack of an offensive game. This is a guy that averaged 18 points in 30mpg at BYU, shooting 57%. Plus 10 boards. Bogut, in the same conference only scored 20 in 35mpg, with 12 boards. Yes the competition is bigger and stronger in the nba but he shouldn't have completely lost all confidence in his O.

I think if Sam would just tell Hoff he is going to get the ball in 3 positions (left baseline 15ft, foul line high post, and low block on left side) Hoff could start to understand where his shots will be coming from and develop a few go-to moves. I like the running hook. I like the up and under. If he can just add the baseline drop step or a turnaround J that is all he needs. Then give him 3 shots per game to get him going. I think he can be a 50%+ shooter plus draw some fouls in the low post.

Defensively he is clearly getting better. His rotations are pretty solid and he may be our best big man at helping out on guard penetration. Getting leaner in the offseason has made a difference. And he is slowly starting to understand what he can and can't do out there. He always trys to box out and usually keeps his man off the boards. He rebounds at a decent rate for his minutes and allows others to get boards more easily by creating space.

I can see him being an equivalent C to Antonio Davis for us. A 10 and 8 kind of guy with good post D.

A thread on his development will be kind of boring though, because it will continue to be slow. Unless Sam starts involving him in the offense and getting him extended minutes in the second half. I don't see that happening, especially when Sow will be brought up late FEB.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

good idea. i've been watching araujo under a microscope lately myself. i'm trying to find some answers to my own questions but i haven't found them yet. might as well talk about him.

i think his confidence is a major hurdle for him- i don't even know if confidence is the right word for it. he's just distracted- or at least he appears that way to me. 'good' game (orlando) or 'bad' game, it doesn't seem to make any difference. he's got his eyes on too many things, i think. i just don't know what they are. 

it's become clear to me that our offense will never revolve around him- but man, i'd love to see a putback once in a while. just occasionally. given what he has to do, i don't understand why it doesn't happen more often- he's doesn't even get any opportunities. i mean, we just need him under the backboard- on either end. he should be snagging rebounds with regularity (from just _being_ there), and at least getting some of them on the offensive end. but he doesn't. and even the ones he does grab are followed by immediate paralysis- nothing comes easily for him right now, whether there's too much on his mind or whatever.

to be honest, i haven't myself seen much improvement from any angle this year. i've started to consider the possibility that he may stay trapped in his own head for the foreseeable future. i think our coaching staff bears some responsibility there, but that's not meant to excuse araujo himself. at some point he'll relax, i have little doubt, but i don't know whether that'll happen in toronto. i'm starting to think it won't. as long as he continues to yell down his rebounds, i have a tough time believing he'll find the right energy and focus to help the team ahead of himself, and pull himself out from under that microscope.

his stats are not the problem. they don't bother me at all. the people who have a tough time justifying the 8 pick on account of his weak numbers have to deal with that for themselves. open your mind. instead, his intangibles are what concern me, and i haven't seen any improvement in that respect. i'm praying for coach keady to make a difference there. (that was a fantastic hiring, imo.)

peace


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

Hoffa is like Alvin Williams before Marc Jackson & Lenny Wilkens came along.

- tearing it up in practice 
- showing moments of brilliance in games
- Extreme work ethic
- Very coachable
- below average talent

I remeber watching alvin have big games once and a while when he used to play behind Doug Cristy and Billups etc... and it just seemed like one day it was all going to click in and it did under Lenny Wilken because he had no choice to play him.... but it took alot of offseason scrimages with Allen Iversion and alot of dedication to his jumper to make it happen... but certainly a later bloomer - would be a really nice 2 way player now if not for injuries.


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## TDrake (Jun 8, 2003)

I think Hoffa's problem is he's just too emotional. To put it another way, he needs more self-control - he has to play "within himself". Lots of guys are like that, but they tend to grow out of it by their 20's. I don't know if he will or not - maybe this is what they call the "Latin temperment"? I dunno - its a phrase I've heard but I'm not big on stereotypes and don't know if it applies to Hoffa or not. 

All the same, he must have self-discipline to work as hard as he does, so you've gotta think self-control will come in the same package ...


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Argh...

Hopefully he's back in the starting lineup against the Nets.


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## TDrake (Jun 8, 2003)

Yeah - although I think Matumbo would have been a horrible match-up for him. About his equal in inertia and agility with a large height advantage, he'd probably have either taken Hoffa right out of the play or scored over him on offence and shut him down completely on defence. Better to fight the battles you can win.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

TDrake said:


> Yeah - although I think Matumbo would have been a horrible match-up for him. About his equal in inertia and agility with a large height advantage, he'd probably have either taken Hoffa right out of the play or scored over him on offence and shut him down completely on defence. Better to fight the battles you can win.


I don't see it that way as much as I see Bonner possibly providing a better mismatch. Deke would have had trouble rebounding with Araujo boxing him out, scoring wouldn't have been an issue, and Hoff should be able to keep him honest with his shot. Mitchell got the win though, so I can't really complain. 

Maybe Nenad and the other Nets big men will be a more favourable matchup for Hoffa's role. We'll find out tomorrow.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

SkywalkerAC said:


> I don't see it that way as much as I see Bonner possibly providing a better mismatch. Deke would have had trouble rebounding with Araujo boxing him out, scoring wouldn't have been an issue, and Hoff should be able to keep him honest with his shot. Mitchell got the win though, so I can't really complain.
> 
> Maybe Nenad and the other Nets big men will be a more favourable matchup for Hoffa's role. We'll find out tomorrow.



Nenad versus Hoffa, ouch, not good.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

shookem said:


> Nenad versus Hoffa, ouch, not good.


One of Hoff's primary jobs is post defense. We'll see how it fairs against a very good post player, if they're matched up of course.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

SkywalkerAC said:


> One of Hoff's primary jobs is post defense. We'll see how it fairs against a very good post player, if they're matched up of course.


I mostly see Bosh or Villenueva guarding Nenad, maybe Bonner guarding Collins? I'm not sure where that leaves Hoff. Hope he gets a chance though.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

shookem said:


> I mostly see Bosh or Villenueva guarding Nenad, maybe Bonner guarding Collins? I'm not sure where that leaves Hoff. Hope he gets a chance though.


Collins would have some trouble guarding Matt on the perimeter but I'd also like to see Hoffa grinding Krystic down to start the game.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

What I can see Hoffa doing to a guy like Krstic (fairly thin, not incredibly strong), is keeping him way out of position on both ends of the floor. Giving lots of space to Bosh or Villanueva to operate while on offence and keeping Krstic or Collins off the glass. And maybe this will sound bad, but it would wear someone's body down quite a bit to battle with Hoffa for position, tiring the player out, making them ineffective.

What I would really like to see is Hoffa get a few touches early on offence, the games where he has played well, he was included in the offence early. He's a sensitive guy (I wish I was joking here), I think that it makes him feel like his important to the team, boosts his confidence a bit and pushes him to try harder on both ends. I know it sounds crazy, but go back and take a look at the Clippers and Kings games, early in the game he got some plays and for the rest of the game his whole game was better and you could see the confidence. He was trying stuff on offence that he usually doesn't do (sweet up and unders against Miller) and his shot look less hesitant in the follow through (on his short jump hooks too).

I think the important thing on top of this is that he knows that he won't get yank if he misses. Like I said before, the guy is really sensitive. If he's playing with fear, the shot's not going to fall (fear of being booed, home performances not so great this year). I know everyone will say, he's a professional, he shouldn't be sensitive, well it's obvious that he is so as long as he's with us, we need to accept that and work with it if we want him to succeed. All you need to do is look at the guy and see that he's really sensitive and a little insecure. And anyone who doesn't want him to succeed, isn't a Raptors fan.


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## 85 lakers (Dec 22, 2005)

Well, if the Raptors continue winning games, Raf will be the happiest Raptor. Because Toronto will not be drafting Aldridge.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

13 minutes against New Jersey. 4 and 4, making both his shots, and one block. How was his defense?


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I really hope he can continue building on some of these solid performances. No reason he shouldn't be able to bully the Bulls' frontcourt when he's on the court. Would love to see him get just a few more minutes...

Who was he matched up with on the Nets?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I believe he started the game matched up on Krstic. Sam does this to keep Bosh off the more offensive minded big and keep Bosh out of foul trouble early. Also to wear down the better big a bit.

The first foul call in the Bulls game killed Hoff. I watched that play several times and all Hoff did was get in the way of Sweetney as he tried to cross the lane. Sweets runs over Hoff from behind and gets the superstar call? The next play Hoff clearly pushes Harrington and picks up his second foul.

Refs were all over our bigs. ATrain comes in and gets 3 fouls in 9 minutes. Bonner fouls out in 29. Even Bosh had 5. Total fouls 27 for Raps, 17 for Bulls.

Sweetney and Harrington had 2 fouls combined? Perhaps the refs were a little mad about the Javie controversy? Those guys stick together.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

grrr

cmon Hoff.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Good matcup against Brezec. We'll see how many minutes he can get against a weak Bobcat frontcourt.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Heard he played reasonably well in his 13 minutes, despite not lighting up the stat sheet. Anyone care to offer a critique?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Heard he played reasonably well in his 13 minutes, despite not lighting up the stat sheet. Anyone care to offer a critique?


Good passes, got back on rotations and great man-to-man defense. He got some calls that were very questionable and was probably more related to his rep as a foul-prone guy.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

He came out with good energy and helped spark the club in the 3rd Q after Sam had ripped the club at halftime. He had good chemistry with the starting unit.

I think he showed that you can give him the ball in the halfcourt and he won't do stupid things with it. Get him in the rhythm of the game on O and you will get more out of him on D.

Refs don't give him an ounce of respect. Even the first charge he took, which was absolutely clear, the baseline ref was starting to give the block signal when the sideline ref beat him to the call with the charge.

He deserved more PT and I don't know what the point was in taking him out with 4 fouls. Was Sam saving him for something? No. Unless quadruple overtime hit and all our other bigs fouled out.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

decent game vs charlotte. i thought araujo finally looked somewhat comfortable out there, which is actually a huge improvement. i thought he used his size to his advantage against brezec, in running plays and on the boards, and i'm glad he's finally getting the courage to _not play anxiously_, as ridiculous as that sounds.

he's still fighting the refs, of course, but not as much as he used to. i wouldn't say he has more respect from the officials now but he isn't an automatic foul anymore. that's a welcome change.

thought he deserved some more pt down the stretch, whether we were behind or not, given how his presence on the floor seemed to tire the bobcats in the early going- i can only imagine how effective he would've been against their corpses in the fourth. i certainly don't think he was "lazy" last night either, so i really couldn't justify him riding the bench again after his perfunctory 3q appearance. i think it's become increasingly evident that sam's sub patterns with araujo have almost nothing to do with "how he's playing"; hoffa'll get 15 mpg regardless, and i don't know if i really support that idea.

whatever, he _is_ improving- albeit slowly. i guess that's something.

peace


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

ballocks said:


> i think it's become increasingly evident that sam's sub patterns with araujo have almost nothing to do with "how he's playing"; hoffa'll get 15 mpg regardless, and i don't know if i really support that idea.
> 
> whatever, he _is_ improving- albeit slowly. i guess that's something.
> 
> peace


Agreed about the minutes. There's always talk about players earning their minutes. But even when Hoffa plays well his minutes don't change or sometimes they even decrease (after the ORlando game). 
I'm not sure what Sam is doing, I really question if it's such a great idea to have such an inexperienced coach with an inexperienced team. I think young players should have a veteran coach who can teach rather than someone who is a rookie just like them. Experienced teams have the ability to coach themselves to some extent, but I don't think a young team can do that with any success.


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## TDrake (Jun 8, 2003)

Sounds good in theory, but most veteran coaches don't want to coach rookies - they want a team they can win with. 

Another problem is that a lot of the veteran coaches who might be available aren't really teachers at all - they're former players with some talent with X's & O's and bench management but not really strong on the practice floor ...

I like that Sam is really trying to teach our guys how to win - not just one game, but to develop a winning "lifestyle". It should serve us well in the future.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Team Mao said:


> I'm not sure what Sam is doing, *I really question if it's such a great idea to have such an inexperienced coach with an inexperienced team. I think young players should have a veteran coach who can teach rather than someone who is a rookie just like them*. Experienced teams have the ability to coach themselves to some extent, but I don't think a young team can do that with any success.


Sam wasn't exactly hired because he was the greatest coach out there remember. He was the coach that agreed to come to TO. Maybe we could convince some else now, but that would look stupid, fire a coach that's winning games. Plus it'd make Bosh leave.

Sam's got a boner for Bonner, we all know that. Matt's a good player himself, nothing against him, he does get a few extra minutes that could probably go to Hoffa.

But Sam's record for developing players is pretty good. Bosh is on a path to superstardom and Bonner is working in the league. Maybe Hoffa is Hoffa and untill he proves that being Hoffa means more then Sam think's it does, Hoffa will get what Hoffa gets.

I like that nickname though, Hoffa.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Someone want to review his minutes against the Knicks?

He got 18 minutes (near his season high?) and only committed 2 fouls, 5 boards, 3 points. How was his plus/minus?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ Did a good job in the second half keeping Curry out of position. Curry looked gassed, though.

Got some rebounds.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

speedythief said:


> ^ Did a good job in the second half keeping Curry out of position. Curry looked gassed, though.
> 
> Got some rebounds.


Hoff doesn't get winded much these days does he?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Hoff doesn't get winded much these days does he?


He played untill one and half minutes left in the first quater, didn't look too tired.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

In the Knicks game, that was probably the most comfortable I've seen Hoffa play in...well...ever. He didn't rush alot (I only remember one play where he rushed it leading to a pass instead of an open 15-footer) and he got great position on rotations.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

God I love how our board doesn't hate on Hoffa. Good to hear that he's getting more comfortable out there.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Over at realgm (i don't post but i love to read crap apparently) the vast majority of posters seem to think that it's either doubtful he gets an extension from us (completely ludicrous if you ask me) or won't get an offer (other than perhaps the min) from another team. What do you guys think about the potential for Hoffa's next contract? 

I think we're going to get a reasonable (backup) center at a reasonable price. I don't know if we can sign him for less than his qualifying offer (unless he signs an offer sheet for less I suppose) but getting a bruising center for less than the MLE is something to be happy about, especially when it doesn't even use up your MLE. 

Think Hoff will be re-signed by the Raps? What would his stats (or minutes) have to be in order to justify a contract (say 3+1 option years) starting at the QO (I'm guessing it's around 4.2 mill?)?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Over at realgm (i don't post but i love to read crap apparently) the vast majority of posters seem to think that it's either doubtful he gets an extension from us (completely ludicrous if you ask me) or won't get an offer (other than perhaps the min) from another team. What do you guys think about the potential for Hoffa's next contract?
> 
> I think we're going to get a reasonable (backup) center at a reasonable price. I don't know if we can sign him for less than his qualifying offer (unless he signs an offer sheet for less I suppose) but getting a bruising center for less than the MLE is something to be happy about, especially when it doesn't even use up your MLE.
> 
> Think Hoff will be re-signed by the Raps? What would his stats (or minutes) have to be in order to justify a contract (say 3+1 option years) starting at the QO (I'm guessing it's around 4.2 mill?)?


What does Michael Doleac get? That's about right.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

A contract starting at $4M? So you're talking about a 4 year/$16M+ contract for Araujo?

We can get him a lot cheaper than that. Guys like Doleac, Motumbo, Booth only make $2M a year.

For Hoff to get $4M a year he would need something like 8/6 in 20 minutes. Gadzilla only got a little less than $5M to start and he was getting 7/8 in 22 minutes.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

shookem said:


> What does Michael Doleac get? That's about right.


He gets around 2.5 million but, despite not playing this year, was a bit of a bargain. Aaron is getting paid, what, upwards of 4?


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

speedythief said:


> A contract starting at $4M? So you're talking about a 4 year/$16M+ contract for Araujo?
> 
> We can get him a lot cheaper than that. Guys like Doleac, Motumbo, Booth only make $2M a year.
> 
> For Hoff to get $4M a year he would need something like 8/6 in 20 minutes. Gadzilla only got a little less than $5M to start and he was getting 7/8 in 22 minutes.


Yeah, perhaps the market has cooled down a little for mediocre big men. Still, I think Hoff will be more valuable than Gadz by the time his rookie contract is up. 

I guess a lot depends on one thinks his production will increase over the next two years and that is reliant on roster moves. Will Babs and Mitchell REALLY stick with him or will they look elsewhere? 

If he's getting basically no time, I guess other teams won't offer 4. On the other hand, if he is averaging 20 minutes (and if he is I'd guess he'd have similar stats to 8/6), there could very well be teams offering him the full MLE.

We'll hopefully have a better idea of how he'll be developed after the all-star break. I love that Mitchell is using him against the big-boy starters and I think this will pay off in the end.


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## TDrake (Jun 8, 2003)

The way I see it, Hoffa's going to be developed to his max potential in the next two years. Then, we're going to try and sign Magloire as a FA at around 12 mil and resign Hoffa for 2 - 3 Mil - and our problems at the 5 are OVER (in my dreams, anyway!!) :lucky:


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Losing the tip to Nate must've stung. Bad launch but Hoff didn't even jump right away when the tip went up.


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## drlove_playa (Feb 11, 2005)

I'd say when Maglore is a FA we will sign him to a 5yr/40 million.. Depending on what offers he gets and how his mood is. That would be a descent salary for a quality big man and it wouldn't hurt us that much. Then we would still have room to sign another good player.


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## shapeshifter (Jun 13, 2005)

i thought hoffa had a really good game today and can't understand why he didn't get put back in the game. Does any one have any theories on why sam uses Hoffa the way he does?

It was also hard to see bonner on curry in the second quater - what were you thinking sam? - and hoffa just sits on the bench?

It also seemed today that when hoffa was in the game, the raps were pulling ahead which makes the bonner subsitution in the 2nd all the more questionable.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

I like how the crowd has been taking it easy on Hoffa as of late. Seems like there actually rooting for him now.

I still don't understand why Mitchell can't find more time for Hoffa. Take 5 minutes from Bonner, 2-3 from Charlie, 2-3 from Bosh. Theres ten extra minutes for Hoffa, which would do a lot for his development, IMO.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

agreed ^^^

dunno about 2-3 min from bosh or eva but def 5 from bonner.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

vigilante said:


> I still don't understand why Mitchell can't find more time for Hoffa. Take 5 minutes from Bonner, 2-3 from Charlie, 2-3 from Bosh. Theres ten extra minutes for Hoffa, which would do a lot for his development, IMO.


i guess it was proven/confirmed against the knicks that hoffa is neither a contributor nor a scrub. his pt occurs for the first 7-8 minutes of the first and third quarters with virtually no exceptions. to be honest, i can't remember the last time he was rotated in a different pattern. it doesn't matter what happens- whether we're in a tight game, up by 30 or down by 30, hoffa'll play for 15-16 total minutes a game.

once he comes out, it's bosh, villanueva, bonner, aaron and loren (in that order) up front for the rest of the half. and really, araujo doesn't seem to mind very much. but he is improving... at the speed of a tortoise, sure, but you can actually see some tiny steps being taken these days. i'm looking forward to the west coast swing.

peace


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

he played out of that rotation yesterday.


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## PersianPlaya18 (Jan 1, 2006)

Personally I don't understand why Bonner plays so much. Yes he plays his butt off on the court, but that doesnt warrant all of the minutes he gets. Some of those should definetly go to Hoffa or Charlie.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

PersianPlaya18 said:


> Personally I don't understand why Bonner plays so much. Yes he plays his butt off on the court, but that doesnt warrant all of the minutes he gets. Some of those should definetly go to Hoffa or Charlie.


I can understand why Bonner gets minutes against some teams (I'm starting to come around a little on him), but when I was watching him get physically abused by Curry, I was cringing. If anything, the game against the Knicks should have been a game where Hoffa would get a few more minutes than usual. Did Hoffa have trouble in the first quarter? That would be putting it lightly. But the Raptors should have been dropping help on Curry. There is no player on the Raptors that can handle Curry one-on-one, he's just too big and talented. But Bonner was definitely the wrong choice, he was just getting pushed around and all he could do was foul.
I was really surprised that we saw Woods instead of Williams in the Knicks game, because the Knicks have a lot of big bodies. Oh well, we kicked a**, so let's worry about it when we lose.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

shookem said:


> he played out of that rotation yesterday.


did he? i don't remember any time in the 2nd and 4th quarters but i'll look it up. i wasn't watching him with a microscope on sunday but it didn't seem unusual to me.

peace


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Matchup with Ostertag tonight. Hopefully he doesn't get put on Okur, who'd likely massacre him from the perimeter.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i thought hoffa was absolutely dreadful against the jazz. i'm not saying it with much emotion either, i think it's just the truth. it was really painful to watch. 

he seems to look halfway decent every couple of weeks, and then promptly goes on to drop real stinkers like he did in salt lake. 

this kid looks really unsettled. his learning curve appears volatile. it's too bad.

peace


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Yeah, he played awful last night.

Help defense was disguisting. He continually left Gregory wide open under the net when help wasn't near to go for the double.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Do we have any idea when Hoffa should be back from this shoulder injury?

I'd love to see the guy start coming off the bench.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ Dunno, but we do miss him.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

if it really is between hoffa and pape, to me it's not even close. hoffa has more skills, maybe- maybe in practice- but he still doesn't exactly have a _plethora_ of them. meanwhile, considering the way our squad is currently configured and what we seem to need to compete at a high level, pape brings more of it (imo). i don't know precisely why, but suffice it to say that pape's mind is comfortable on the floor. he might not know what's going on but he clearly isn't worried about what the arena is thinking like hoffa. pape's learning but he's not at all nervous, and i think that helps the rest of the team since hoffa's probably taken a chunk out of _them_ (mentally) since he's been here by being so nervous and scared and... well, catered to (by starting almost all his games, playing 7 minutes in the third and then hitting the showers, that stuff).

what's more, pape is a shotblocker in development. at least he's that. it might not be much but, at this point, after 14 months of rafael araujo, it seems to relieve our team to some degree (whether it should or it shouldn't is irrelevant). and today, down the stretch, his superior athleticism allowed him to play excellent perimeter defense on ron artest, too- again, he wasn't "scared" of doing well. that versatility is obviously not something that many centres in the league have, let alone araujo.

what i'm getting at is that if hoffa continues to do what he's done and pape continues to do what he's done, i think hoffa's days in toronto are numbered. i don't know if he'll even get to the end of his rookie deal. don't get me wrong, i think he'll eventually contribute somewhere in this league, but it doesn't look like it'll be here.

peace


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ One thing the Babcock firing has done is open the door all the way for trading Hoff. Not that I am advocating that but the "admitting [his] mistake" angle is gone. Nobody is going to be very embarassed if we move the kid.


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## TDrake (Jun 8, 2003)

True enough Speedy - 

Ballocks, I don't think you can suddenly call Pape a centre after this performance. He definitely did well, don't get me wrong, but we need a big man in the middle and probably more than one. Hoffa's the only one we have right now. I'd be thrilled if we could get someone better, but meanwhile, I'm just hoping he develops. Otherwise, we'll playing at a 33% win percentage for a loooonnnnggg time ...


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

speedythief said:


> ^ One thing the Babcock firing has done is open the door all the way for trading Hoff. Not that I am advocating that but the "admitting [his] mistake" angle is gone. Nobody is going to be very embarassed if we move the kid.


excellent point. that didn't even cross my mind. the end of the araujo era might be even closer than i thought.

another thing about that, though: if pape somehow turned into a vital contributor for us (just bear with me here), that draft really wouldn't look all that bad (also assuming that hoffa didn't get any better). we'd have a first rounder who looks like should've been taken in the second, and a second rounder who looks like he should've been taken in the first- plus the extra second rounder from miami that we got in the miralles/sow swap.

maybe i should just relax... or at least wait for pape to re-sign this summer. but who knows if the babcock legacy can actually be redeemed in the future. i guess it's not out of the question.

peace


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

TDrake said:


> Ballocks, I don't think you can suddenly call Pape a centre after this performance. He definitely did well, don't get me wrong, but we need a big man in the middle and probably more than one. Hoffa's the only one we have right now. I'd be thrilled if we could get someone better, but meanwhile, I'm just hoping he develops. Otherwise, we'll playing at a 33% win percentage for a loooonnnnggg time ...


yeah, you're right. i just thought he looked excellent tonight. i'll give him at least another 6 minutes of floor time before i cast my opinion in stone.

peace


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I can't believe the Pape hype is continuing. The guy got ONE rebound last night in a game where we got killed on the boards.

He plays double the minutes Hoff did and can't even get the same number of boards.

Yes he had 2 blocks, but one went right into the stands which just gives the ball back to the other team. That doesn't help. Plus he had a goaltend. So it all amounts to nothing.

He even fouls at the same rate, but Sam lets him run longer.

Hoff takes charges just like Sow tries to. Hoff rotates better on D to cut off drives.

The very first play of the game Artest drives from the 3pt arc and there is NO help as he just lays the ball in.

The first time this season that Hoff got to play decent minutes and start consecutive games this is what happened:

19min - 6reb game he gave Zo fits
11min - 4reb
14min - 3reb
22min - 6reb game he gave Miller fits
18min - 4reb

Pape not only doesn't rebound but I have not seen another C get mad at him once like they do with Hoff. Hoff bothers guys.

Not that Hoff is great by any means, but when he gets minutes he produces what we say we want from our C.


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## AirBonner (May 28, 2005)

I'm not sure that comparing Hoffa and Pape is really that fair. Pape would be much better at the 4 then 5 and is better at playing D against 3s and 4s because he doesn't have the bulk that Araujo does. Ideally I would like to see them play based on their matchups. Araujo would have been a nice fit to defend Brad Miller last night because he excels when playing against guys with lots of bulk like Miller and Zo. Pape on the other hand is a much better matchup for finese or athletic based C's like Krstic, Dalembert, Kaman etc.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

It may not be fair but that is where we have PT for him. If he's not a C then he is behind Bosh, Villy, Bonner, and next year Slokar at the PF spot.

If we could showcase him at the PF spot we could probably get some value in a trade. Instead the callup from the D league may have actually hurt his value a bit because it is exposing him at C.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

I think that rebounding is something that can be taught much easier than shot blocking.

Rebounding is foot work and primarily positioning.

Shot blocking involves foot work and positioning, as well as body control and shot anticipation.

From the little I have seen of Pape he brings a lot to the defensive end that we sacrafice with Hoffa on the floor.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I wouldn't be suprsised to see Pape's rebounding minutes increase significantly with experience. Reggie Evans wasn't always the NBA rebounder that he is today. Pape has the quickness and desire to get to loose balls.

Back to Hoff, I still see a role for him with the Raptors. As much as there is no shame in trading him, there's no shame in signing him, a roleplaying bruiser, to an affordable (sub 5 mill) contract. He has value even as muscle off the bench.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

SkywalkerAC said:


> I wouldn't be suprsised to see Pape's rebounding minutes increase significantly with experience. Reggie Evans wasn't always the NBA rebounder that he is today. Pape has the quickness and desire to get to loose balls.
> 
> Back to Hoff, I still see a role for him with the Raptors. As much as there is no shame in trading him, there's no shame in signing him, a roleplaying bruiser, to an affordable (sub 5 mill) contract. He has value even as muscle off the bench.


Very true. I'd like to keep Hoffa on this team coming off the bench, because he's a big bruiser down low, but IMO he's definately not our future starting center.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Turkish Delight said:


> Very true. I'd like to keep Hoffa on this team coming off the bench, because he's a big bruiser down low, but IMO he's definately not our future starting center.


I really hope that Charlie can develop enough strength between them to be our starting big men. They should be complimented by more power athletes on the wing (Joey and Rudy could work) and a power center off the bench. At point guard we need speed and passing. I don't feel right spending big money or even a draft pick so much on a 5 when Hoffa is the rough version of what we need. 

Is Sow a free agent this summer?


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## TDrake (Jun 8, 2003)

I like Hoffa and I want him to do well, but I think we need someone more talented at the 5 if we're going for the championship. Still, he can be a big part of our progress, and eventual success, if he continues to improve. Hoffa's one of the toughest guys in the L, IMO, and there's nothing this team needs more than toughness ... 

There isn't a centre in the league that can play 48 minutes - we need a second legit centre to share those minutes. If Hoffa can only give us 15 - 20, then he's going to be the second stringer. If he can go more, then the search for a backup is a lot less challenging. I don't think anyone on the roster has the size to give us those kinds of minutes at the 5. We have to find someone else and I just don't see anyone in this years draft that'll do.

I'm very much afraid we're going to suffer at centre for another year unless the front office can pull someone out of the hat (very doubtful).


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

SkywalkerAC said:


> *Is Sow a free agent this summer?*


Yes he is, and I'd imagine that we'd give him another extension, maybe a two year deal this time around?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Didn't realize Pape Sow was a free agent this year. Hope it doesn't come back to kick the franchise in the face if he turns out to be a serviceable player on another team, starter or not.


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

i thought sow was signed to a 2 yrs deal?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

no_free_baskets said:


> i thought sow was signed to a 2 yrs deal?


http://www.dfw.net/~patricia/contracts



> Toronto Raptors Date # of total
> Player signed years salary misc FA
> Pape Sow .............. 8/9/05 1 minimum '06


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## ballafromthenorth (May 27, 2003)

> Araujo may head to D League: By MIKE KOREEN
> 
> With Antonio Davis in town and Pape Sow improving, Rafael Araujo appears to be the odd man out with the Raptors.
> 
> ...


http://torontosun.com/Sports/Basketball/2006/02/08/1431172-sun.html

Nothing really new in the article, but interesting nonetheless.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

trick said:


> http://www.dfw.net/~patricia/contracts


I think we have him next year too because Rob wanted Bird rights for both him and Bonner to occur at the same time.

ShamBull's site has him for two years (see my salary thread).


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Starting to look like Robert Swift might be the big man we missed out on. 

What the hell is up with Hoffa anyway? There sure hasn't been much discussion on his status- injured or not?


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Good to see Hoff back in the lineup and having at least some production. How did he look against the Bucks?


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

we signed pape to a two-year extension this summer. we will have his bird rights at the end of their deals--07/08. there may be a chance that next year is a team option, but the deal as deliniated by babs was for two seasons.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Heard Hoffa played pretty well against the Heat, especially in the first half. Anyone care to provide a run-down?

Will be interesting to see if Sam uses him at all against the uptempo Suns, though I did hear that Rafael was getting up and down the court quite nicely.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Good overall game from Hoff.

Made a couple of very nice passes. Took a couple of charges. A big blocked shot in transition. Looked to dunk the ball around the rim. Ran the court very well.

Hoff was playing angry, not scared. Got great inside position against the smaller Heat bigs but wasn't getting the entry pass (as usual).

Hoff runs quite well. It is when changing direction that he is 'slow'. That is true of most big men. Straight ahead speed he is fine. Its when he recovers on the pick and roll D that he needs to get quicker.

Sow has the body of a SF. You can't compare the two guys in mobility because Sow doesn't have the size or strength of Hoff. Sow looked to be the same size as Bobby Simmons when they were lined up beside each other for a FT.

Watching a small 'big man' in Simien manhandle Sow and Bonner made you appreciate what Hoff brings to the team.

When the team makes Hoff a part of the offense it really builds his confidence and gets him in a good flow. And it shows the fans that he actually has SOME skill. The kid is not a stiff.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i hope hoff can continue to play like this. or at least remain in his current state of mind. he looked more healthy last night. 

i wouldn't know how to do it myself, but i'm hoping that sam would. if we could ever get this guy in the right frame of mind to become a professional basketball player and forget about all the other stuff, we could certainly have an asset. it's just that... i don't know... he's had a few games like this already. he shows a glimmer and then he goes back in the garbage (for whatever reason). i hope it doesn't happen again.

but lookey there... if there's a team more exposed at the center position than miami at the moment, they're already in town waiting for tomorrow night. 

come on, rafael. keep showin' us whatcha got. 

peace


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

HAffa for 06-07 MIP

wishful thinking...



ah, what would life be without dreams


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

did anyone else notice swirsky subdued praise of hoffa as opposed to the crazy over top antics ("hoffa grabs a rebound, wow,wow, wow!!! lol) we were accustomed to at the beggining of the year?...it was almost as if he was reluctant to say anything positive about hoffa...lol, i guess now that babcock isnt here, chuck doesnt have to push that team agenda anymore...lol


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

no_free_baskets said:


> did anyone else notice swirsky subdued praise of hoffa as opposed to the crazy over top antics ("hoffa grabs a rebound, wow,wow, wow!!! lol) we were accustomed to at the beggining of the year?...it was almost as if he was reluctant to say anything positive about hoffa...lol, i guess now that babcock isnt here, chuck doesnt have to push that team agenda anymore...lol


Hmm, I dunno. Chuck busted a gut when Hoffa made that block and made a pretty big deal about a few of his slams....also seemed to brag about Hoffa's D, quite a bit, didn't Chuck make Hoffa (or the production crew) the shift of the half or something? Anyways, it looked like to me Chuck was being the same old Chuck he always is.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Watching Hoff clear space in the lane gave me a vision of what our team could be like with someone with his presence in the paint, whether it be him or another player. It's pretty unusual to see one of our guys carving out space. I'd love to see someone routinely opening a driving lane for our athletic guys.


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## TDrake (Jun 8, 2003)

^^ what he said ...


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Hoff with a good first half against the Hornets- 8 points, 6 rebounds. Please give me the rundown on his overall performance.

A vid of his beast dunk would also be much appreciated.

GO HOFFA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## SteveHartfiel (Jun 8, 2003)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Hoff with a good first half against the Hornets- 8 points, 6 rebounds. Please give me the rundown on his overall performance.
> 
> A vid of his beast dunk would also be much appreciated.
> 
> GO HOFFA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:


He's playing very well so far, calling for the ball a lot which is good, and setting some good screens. He sometimes is out of position which gives him no chance for an offensive board.. but hes playing very well


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Hoff with 4/3/1 in 5 minutes against the Pacers so far. Sounds like he's getting a lot more comfortable/agressive (kinda like Joey?) out there. ****ing great to see. If only I could be seeing it.


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

gah, this sucks.. i recently had resigned that we failed with the Hoffa pick, and he was not getting time because... he wasnt good. and now whats he do? he goes out there and does good things.. thanks hoffa, make me look like a retard!


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

http://www.vzwpix.com/mi/75885583_237807058_0.jpeg?

My Hoffa armband- He tossed it to me after the Celtics vs Raptors


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

DWest Superstar said:


> http://www.vzwpix.com/mi/75885583_237807058_0.jpeg?
> 
> My Hoffa armband- He tossed it to me after the Celtics vs Raptors


The link doesn't work, but nice anyways.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Hopefully Hoffa can have a productive outing in his last game of the season. Stunk it up in his last one- 0 for 7.

I don't think Mitchell or the franchise has given up on Baby just yet. This is an extremely important offseason for Araujo and you know he's going to work his *** off on whatever the coaching staff tell him to.

Go Hoffa.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Would appreciate a critique of this final game and any comments on how he has developed or hasn't since last season.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I think with young/inexperienced players you can have unlimited patience with them so long as they show a little bit of what they can do. A flash here and there is really all the average sports fan needs to not give up on a guy.

Hoffa has shown the potential to be a rotation player in the NBA some day. I don't know how much more you can say about him.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Hoffa is what he is. He has a very limited NBA game. But theoretically the things he brings should be a good compliment to our team of tall but thin forwards.

He bangs down low, rotates pretty well defensively, and can box out the big C on the opposing team. On O he can hit the 15-18 foot J and clear space in the key to create driving lanes. Pretty good passer.

His game against Zo brought us that big win against Miami. He has really frustrated players like Cato, Miller, and Dampier. He really controlled Okafor when he was matched up one on one with him. But he is only going to look good in about half his games.

On a team with 4 solid starters around him he could be a decent starting C. Jeff Foster looks great on Indy, but put him in a Raps uni and see what happens. A great team D makes everyone look better than they are. And I always bring up Ostertag, who is pretty useless but didn't stop Utah from going to the Finals. Sloan yelled at him constantly but started him game after game.

So if Bosh, Charlie, and Joey develop as we would like Hoff could probably be our starting C and we would still have a very good club.

As a backup C Hoff is about all you can ask for. Most teams have trouble fielding a good starting C so the standard for backups is quite low. Every team needs a big physical force off the bench for certain matchups.

He jumps just as high as any big bodied C, but its his lack of reach that keeps him from getting so many of those 50/50 balls.

His total minutes played is still quite low when you consider how Charlie and Joey have already moved way past him in career minutes. So there is still a chance he learns more and adapts to the nba game. He certainly seemed less nervous and played looser these last 2 weeks.

On the right team he probably projects out to a 6 & 6 type of player in 24mpg. Never an impact player because he can't score from the low post in this league.

If he had a solid low post game all else would be forgiven.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

lucky777s said:


> Hoffa is what he is. He has a very limited NBA game. But theoretically the things he brings should be a good compliment to our team of tall but thin forwards.
> 
> He bangs down low, rotates pretty well defensively, and can box out the big C on the opposing team. On O he can hit the 15-18 foot J and clear space in the key to create driving lanes. Pretty good passer.
> 
> ...




repped


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

You need to make sure changes here Lucky:



lucky777s said:


> Hoffa is what he is. He has a very limited NBA game. But *theoretically* the things he brings should be a good compliment to our team of tall but thin forwards.
> 
> He can *theoretically* bang down low, *theoretically* he can rotat pretty well defensively, and can *theoretically* box out the big C on the opposing team. On O he can *theoretically* hit the 15-18 foot J and clear space in the key to create driving lanes. *Theoretically* Pretty good passer.
> 
> ...


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

even for me, having watched this story unfold for years, hoffa has been (for many reasons) more than just a disappointment; he is currently a nightmare to watch on the court. this year, you could count the games in which he brought any value at all on two hands. maybe less. it's been awful.

listen, i won't spare sam or the staff or babcock or the media or the raptors or anyone else. they/we all deserve some of the blame. but araujo deserves it too. his head was on wrong from the beginning (imo)- "i just don't want to be a bust!"- he might deserve blame for that, but nobody stepped in to help him out along the way (everybody should be charged for that one). considering his days as a raptor could quite possibly have finished yesterday, i'll remember his tenure here as having been nothing short of watching a car crash- over and over and over.

the improvements he made have been... well, i can't even say for sure because i don't really think he improved in any way. if anything, his confidence was shattered repeatedly, and he could arguably be playing the _worst_ ball of his career right now. i can hardly get my head around that one.

what makes it more frustrating is that you can tell he has skills. he's not a hof'er by any means but he doesn't look out of place on the court. it's just that his skills appear to be constantly overshadowed by his volatile emotional base, and his comfort on the court is obviously absent. it flashes by every so often- presumably when he gets 'bored of being nervous'- but it never stays for an extended period, yet no one steps in to help him while he's clearly awful at helping himself.

if i could put my finger on one thing i wish he'd improved by now, it's his jumpshot. for months i'd been hoping for him to include an 15-18 ft'er in his game. after all, while he's adept with both hands inside, his shots are also blocked at a 15-20% clip. people look at his fg % and they laugh but really, he doesn't have anywhere near a full 100% to work with. if you subtract the times he's been blocked- or the times his shots have been altered significantly- he'd be _a lot_ closer to 50%. but i digress.

the point is that for the last ~15 months, i've seen a mid-range jumper as his saving grace. if he could've included that in his game consistently, i wouldn't have been surprised to see the court open up for him, and ultimately his confidence to return from the doldrums. but this never happened. and he couldn't even become a poor man's laimbeer- his energies were focused on the parts of his game that his confidence (or lack thereof) preyed upon.

anyway, the whole experience with hoffa has been difficult to watch. the fact that it hasn't gotten any easier is pathetic (from him, from sam, from all the parties listed above). will his first two years in this league forever stain his career? absolutely. i have almost no doubt anymore. this man will become a 40-something yo enlightened individual, looking back on his career with pure regret. he'll realize, "it was all in the mind"- yet he couldn't figure that out when it mattered, while no one stepped up to the plate to help him with it, either.

it's been a failure in every way, methinks. tough breaks for everyone. this entire saga has been god-ugly.

peace


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Very true. Its been incredibly frustrating to watch. And his seeming lack of mental toughness has been a big surprise.

On paper he was not a bad pick, although his Chicago draft camp measurements are the most closely guarded secret in America. 

I watched several of his college games at BYU and don't recognize the Hoffa we see in Toronto. This was a very solid scorer in college that can't do anything in the pros? Played in same conference as Bogut and put up similar numbers. Hard to figure.

He doesn't play soft, but he seems to be very soft mentally.

Could Bill Laimbeer play in the league these days? Or have things changed too much with the length and athleticism of players. The physical play has been taken out and guards can just run into C's in the lane and get calls.


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## fleet40 (Jan 14, 2004)

lucky777s said:


> Very true. Its been incredibly frustrating to watch. And his seeming lack of mental toughness has been a big surprise.
> 
> On paper he was not a bad pick, although his Chicago draft camp measurements are the most closely guarded secret in America.
> 
> ...


Laimbeer had basketball ability, although folks around here believe he was just a hack. Over 10,000 points and over 10,000 rebounds discredits that bullsh!t. The man could play today, I have no doubts. And with the need for guys who can shoot, he would probably excel. Lets also not forget that Laimbeer was one of the greatest rebounders of his era. Would Laimbeer be able to pound people like he used to? Probably not. Would he be able to mentally intimidate? I think he would be just as smart today as he was back then. Would he be the most heavily fined player? Its a good bet he would be up there. Would I want him on my team? You better believe it. For as many times as Laimbeer got his easy jump shots from his guards, so did he give those guys easy points off jarring screens, And quick outlet passes. And he was entertaining, in what essentially is the entertainment business.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

As luck would have it the name Bill Laimbeer came up in the RapsTV show Full Court Press last night.

Jack McCloskey, who essentially picked Hoffa and who had picked Laimbeer years ago, was said to be out of touch with today's game and Jack Armstrong and others agreed that a player like Laimbeer would not be nearly as effective in today's game.

Your points above about his abilities assumes he would play in the exact same system and be given the same freedom to come out and shoot the 3ball. But put him on the current Raps squad with Sam coaching, force him to play post up and just set screens, and then pull him after 6 minutes and see what he would produce.

Plus you don't allow for the way the game is called now in determining his PT. 2 quick fouls and you sit on the bench. Hard to produce from there.

Bill was a great rebounder 'in his era' as you say. The game today has too many long players that would simply outreach him for boards. That's not a knock on him, its just reality. With the rule changes taking away his physicality that could severely impact his game. The restricted area and the way guards just throw themselves into big men is a huge change in the game. Look what refs do to Danny Fortson as an extreme example.

Its actually a shame that the focus of today's nba on freakishly tall players with athleticism has made players with intelligence, skill, and heart less appealing to GMs and coaches.

Will there be another Bill Laimbeer or Charles Oakley? The league is losing something if it doesn't include players like that.


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

i dont know why ppl keep holding out hope for this guy...ppl say that he has been given enough of a chance, but please, you guys act like these guys dont scrimmage during practice...given the need for rbd and a big presence inside, you dont think even mitchell would put hoffa in the game if he was outperfomings woods or sow during scrimmage?!? please...even mitchell is not that dense...if he was constantly showing that he can play better then those 2 during practice, you can believe it that mitchell would have him in the game....i mean, when you cant beat out loren woods or pape sow, this speaks volumes, im sorry to say.....


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## fleet40 (Jan 14, 2004)

lucky777s said:


> As luck would have it the name Bill Laimbeer came up in the RapsTV show Full Court Press last night.
> 
> Jack McCloskey, who essentially picked Hoffa and who had picked Laimbeer years ago, was said to be out of touch with today's game and Jack Armstrong and others agreed that a player like Laimbeer would not be nearly as effective in today's game.
> 
> ...


Well I respectfully disagree. As long as players may be today, Laimbeer was a paperweight who was a master of positioning. His boxing out ability allowed him to rebound against longer, more athletic big men. And there were plenty of those through the 80's and 90's. Laimbeer was not only a three point shooter, he was much more effective from 15' - 19', and if Sam was a smart coach, "his record would not give him that distinction" he would surely give Bill Laimbeer some minutes to produce. And surely your back court would love his screening ability to free them for their attacks to the basket. Jack Mckosky was a great basketball mind years ago. And the trade for Bill Laimbeer still remains one of the greatest trades in Pistons History. And the fact that Laimbeer was drafted in the third round, and became an instant success with Detroit making 4-all-star teams makes Mckosky look like a genius. But in the weaning years of the bad-boys Mckosky was not as loved, and his decisions late in those years were.. Horrid. I doubt Mckosky himself thought Laimbeer would be ineffective in todays game. Perhaps the great minds surrounding him thought that. And who quite frankly are they? And what have they accomplished in Toronto??? Ill take the minds of Chuck Daly, KC Jones, Pat Riley, Doug Collins, Huby Brown, Ect. I can go on and on really.

And may I ask why would you tell a player who excels at shooting outside to post? Would you force Kareem to shoot from 15'? Laimbeer was one of the games greatest outside shooting big men (of all time). Im not talking Yao Ming decent, or Igasuskas decent. Laimbeer was a great shooter. YOU want him out there. The man shot nearly 50% shooting mostly from 15' and out. You would be a freaking moron to force him to post. Not to mention all the mismatches you create putting him out there. Sam can put him in the post. And Sam would be a moron.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I agree with you that trying to force a square peg into a round hole every day is pretty inefficient use of your time and resources. But that seems to be Sam Mitchell's thing. That's the whole point of this Hoffa thread. Mitchell hasn't figured out how to use ANY C in the offense. We have 3 very different types. 4 if you include Bonner. Bonner gets the most PT and Sam just parks him out at the 3pt line.

With Bosh, Charlie, MJ, and MoP being the main offensive weapons for the club Sam has decided to not include any of the other role players in the offense and never runs a single play for them or attempts to utilize their skills in any way.

At a minimum it would benefit the Raps to throw the ball into Hoffa at the high or low post and run cuts. He is a willing passer and has pretty good instincts for passing. He never touches the ball and has no role offensively. Any kind of inside out passing game would give the Raps a little different look for D's to worry about. We are so perimeter based and predictable that D's can clamp down on us to end games.

As for Laimbeer I still question whether he would get the CHANCE to show what he was capable of in today's game with the way the ref's call the game and the way coaches and GM's evaluate and use bigs. I guarantee that Sam wouldnt' know what to do with him.

Finding the right fit with a team and system is just as important as ability.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

no_free_baskets said:


> i dont know why ppl keep holding out hope for this guy...ppl say that he has been given enough of a chance, but please, you guys act like these guys dont scrimmage during practice...given the need for rbd and a big presence inside, you dont think even mitchell would put hoffa in the game if he was outperfomings woods or sow during scrimmage?!? please...even mitchell is not that dense...if he was constantly showing that he can play better then those 2 during practice, you can believe it that mitchell would have him in the game....i mean, when you cant beat out loren woods or pape sow, this speaks volumes, im sorry to say.....



Well, Mitchell has started Hoffa for extended periods. That would indicate that the big man is at least showing something in practice.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

A pretty comparable player - Etan Thomas - really struggling to find minutes with the Wizards and a niche in today's league. Be thankful our bruiser doens't have the same contract.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I guess Hoffa will be playing with the Brazilian national team again this summer, against tougher competition this time around. Hopefully this experience will pay off a little more this time around. Might as well keep this thread going through the summer.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ It was pretty much his typical luck that he got sick last year and couldn't compete with them for more than a few weeks. Hopefully this year he can take something away from the experience.


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