# Gender Gap in Pro Sports...



## Comets_Always23 (Apr 30, 2003)

http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1061268651201121.xml


----------



## CigarBoy (Nov 29, 2002)

*Oh-oh it is the WBA*

I think the WNBA has serious problems.

Even with the lack of attention the WNBA receives, it is still known as the lesbian league. Go to any sports bar, shout out the term "WNBA" and the reply will be "lesbians" or lesbian league."

The WNBA totally got away from marketing to families and started marketing to lesbians. I have heard or read countless stories about familes being disgusted by some amourous lesbians sitting in front of them at a WNBA game.

Attendance is not too good and the NBA seems to be tired of underwriting the cost of the WNBA. I don't think the long-term future looks good. If it was a stock I would say sell, sell! 

So I would not be suprised if the WNBA folded in the not to distant future.


----------



## Dr.D (Apr 8, 2003)

I'd rather take my family to a wholesome NBA game. Nothing there but drunks in the crowd and felons on the court.


----------



## CigarBoy (Nov 29, 2002)

*NBA*

NBA....Phooey! If I had a family I would rather take them to a Butler University game or a Wright State game. Those schools have true student athletes, who will contribute something to society when they graduate. 

There are plenty of programs like those around the country.


----------



## talula (Jul 9, 2003)

*Re: Oh-oh it is the WBA*



> Originally posted by <b>CigarBoy</b>!
> Even with the lack of attention the WNBA receives, it is still known as the lesbian league. Go to any sports bar, shout out the term "WNBA" and the reply will be "lesbians" or lesbian league."


Right, I'm sure that would be a really impressive group. I shall never watch the WNBA again. I know I hate to see talented women playing basketball for very little money, just simply for the love of the game.  


And how is the WNBA marketing strictly towards lesbians? I must have missed the rainbow filled commercials. But I certainly saw the young girls in the crowd who actually have someone to look up to now and something to strive for.


----------



## CigarBoy (Nov 29, 2002)

*marketing and the WNBA*

I would never of known the WNBA markets to the lesbian market if it was not announced, an article was then written about it and I read it. I don't think they market strictly to lesbians, but it is part of the overall marketing plan of some teams.

If fans want to see players play for the love of the game they most likely will go see a college game. There are 327 Div I college teams, not to mention the non Div I college teams.

I think far more girls look up to male players than female players. They are easier to find and overall more entertaining to watch to many people. A young girl could watch Seth Doliboa from Wright State, Romain Sato from Xavier or Avery Sheets from Butler University and see a fine young student athlete that would be a great role model. I think there are plenty of young girls in Dayton, Cincinnati and Indianapolis that look up to these players.

Taula........are you saying that people who go to sports bars are not impressive? I think they run the gamut from good to bad. 

The point is the WNBA is on shakey ground.


----------



## talula (Jul 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>CigarBoy</b>!
> I would never of known the WNBA markets to the lesbian market if it was not announced, an article was then written about it and I read it. I don't think they market strictly to lesbians, but it is part of the overall marketing plan of some teams.


Of course, it markets to lesbians. Many gays and lesbians watch sports, and certainly not just the WNBA. However, you said that it wasn't marketing towards families anymore, and thats not true.

Link 




> I think far more girls look up to male players than female players.


I can't speak for all women, but I didn't grow up admiring male athletes, with the exception of Anfernee Hardaway. I looked up to Nancy Lieberman, Sheryl Swoopes, Nikki McCray and former Lady Vols.




> Taula........are you saying that people who go to sports bars are not impressive? I think they run the gamut from good to bad.


No, I said anyone who labels the WNBA as a "lesbian" league is rather sad. That is a statement made out of pure ignorance. That is on the same level as saying all players in the NBA are unintelligent or thugs. Its simply not true.




> The point is the WNBA is on shakey ground.


Sure it is. It has been since its induction. But it has nothing to do with the lesbian attendance. Sadly, interest just isn't that strong for women's sports.


----------



## CigarBoy (Nov 29, 2002)

Last post before bed time....

Talula....you made some solid points.

They (WNBA) are the only major (and I use that term lightly) sports league that I know of that markets to lesbians. 

Hmm.... the Cincinnati Red don't market to lesbians, neither do the Titans or the Louisville Riverbats. They must have just missed that market.

I think about any typical patron in a sports bar would identify the WNBA as the lesbian league. They would boo if you put a WNBA team on the TV if there was another Big 3 sporting event on. Figure skating, gymnastics and soccer might also get booed. BTW I think a lot of fans are turned off because they think the NBA has too many thugs. I think there are a lot of sports fan that stick to college ball for that reason.

I would have a hard time finding a female who knows who Nikki McCray or Sheryl Swoopes is in Cincinnati where I reside. But if you said Romain Sato I think a lot would know he plays for Xavier. 

I do think the large number of lesbians at WNBA games does indeed contribute to the low attendance. If the WNBA had to rely solely on the free market to survive they would be on the ash heap of history. I don't think they offer a product that large numbers of people want. I take no joy in saying this, I just think it is reality.


----------



## talula (Jul 9, 2003)

Statistically, homosexuals make up about 5-8% of the population, then you have to break that down to only females. So, for that alone I think it is very minor in regards to WNBA attendance. And the marketing to lesbians is not large scale at all. 

I think the problem is just lack of interest. The most common complaint I hear is that the league is boring. Women's sports are just considered inferior.


----------



## Gym Rat (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>CigarBoy</b>!
> Last post before bed time....
> 
> Talula....you made some solid points.
> ...


Cigar boy - exactly how is the WNBA marketing to lesbians? Give me some specific examples, because I sure haven't seen any. In fact, the lesbian markets have been pissed because of the lack of marketing to them. Some teams have marketed to lesbians. The Sparks went to a lesbian bar to try to sell season tickets. And the Storm had a pride night or something back when Linn Dunn was the head coach. But the league itself does not direct very much marketing to lesbians. Where is the article you mention?

Lesbians attend games and so do families. There are a few bad stories about public displays of affection which I found distasteful and it would have been distasteful if it were a hetrosexual couple or a lesbian couple. 

The typical patron at a sports bar, as you describe them, is showing complete ignorance. And, you are basing your opinion on what a group of bar flies in Cincinnati think? Yes, Sato does play for Xavier and so did David West. And, Bob Huggins is the loud mouth coach of Cincinnati - the type of guy I want my children to grow up watching on the sidelines? NOT. Good grief. I can give you PLENTY of examples of men, NBA Players, College Coaches, etc.etc. that I don't want my children influenced by.

Cigarboy - talula is being much nicer than I am. It seems to me that you are a troll that dropped in to slam the group. Not that the W doesn't have problems, they do. But you are basing your opinion on their problems on an un-named article and what some guys that hang out in a sports bar think. Come back with more info, please.


----------



## CigarBoy (Nov 29, 2002)

Hey Rat...maybe Talula...is just a nicer person than you. Sorry I had to take a cut at that one, you set it on a tee for me.

As far as I know the WNBA as a league has not ever marketed to the lesbian marekt. It was the Sparks you were refering to that went to a lesbian bar for a team night then they expanded their lesbian marketing from there. I believe several teams have had gay pride nights. I do not live in an NBA city. I have never been to a WNBA game. The lesbian problem just keeps popping up in articles, forums and on sports radio. I think it is one of the contributing factors hurting the WNBA

The article I read.....I don't remember, but it appears you may have read it too. But I distinctly remember listening to callers from WNBA cities call into FOX radio's overnight show (JT) talking about their negative lesbian experience at games.

I didn't say that hetros didn't do crude things in public. And there are plenty of males coaches and players I wouldn't want my kids to look up to starting with Bill Clinton thru Jerry Tarkanian. I know quite a few good college coaches...Todd Lickliter, Barry Collier, Buzz Peterson, Bruiser Flint, Ed Schilling (now an assistant at Memphis) that are incredible human beings. And they will never be involved in a sexual scandal with a player like Nancy L. 

As for the sports bars, I travel quite a bit probably a good twenty weeks a year mostly during basketball season. So I know the sports bar scene from Boston to Salt Lake City. BTW in SLC they are private clubs. So my sample size is a little bigger than conservative Cincinnati. I am a single guy, and sports bars are my dinner choice most nights. Watch sports and eat...what a deal. Throw in a cigar and I am in heaven.

I can also say that unless I come to a forum like this.....I can't find WNBA fans. I couldn't find one in Cincy with a search warrent! They are just such a small part of the sports landscape, that I just think the WNBA's days are numbered.

I am certainly not a troll. I should have an interview with Memphis coach John and his wife Ellen Calipari posted here shorty. I just submitted it. 

Feel free to ck out my web page down below.

Talula....that 5-8 percent may even be a bit high. The number of lesbians must be high enough at WNBA games to be noticed because writers have written about it a fair amount in the past. I know college teams market to youth basketball. That is a very small market maybe smaller than lesbians, but it seems to work. 

Lack of interest is right. I hear boring a lot from sports fans in connection with woman's basketball.


----------



## Comets_Always23 (Apr 30, 2003)

*GEEZ, the stereotyping never ends...*

I don't give a darn who the WNBA caters to, and neither should anyone else. Lesbians attend WNBA and NBA games, and Gay men attend WNBA and NBA games. Perhaps more gay men attend NBA games and heterosexual men - you never know because people don't discuss it. 

I think all leagues should cater to anyone and everyone if they want fans and profit. It just irks me how some people are so ignorant and try to disguise their ignorance by spouting off only a handful of examples of how "certain" people act terribly. So what? Everyone and every group of people has a bad side. That's human.

Go right ahead with the Pride nights and giving tickets to lesbians at the sports bar. They are people too who want to have a good time and enjoy sports like the rest of us. The ones who label the WNBA the "lesbian league" are the ones with problems. I believe many homophobic people focus too much on the sexual acts that may or may not take place in gays' and lesbians' bedrooms that they can't get to know the people's hearts. Just sad considering all these heterosexual freeks out there.

And sure the WNBA has its problems - so do other sports leagues. It is a fledgling league trying to see which direction in needs to go. 

Oh, yeah back in the day I admired MJ, but when I heard of Swoopes I was like "finally - a woman!" I admire a lot of women ballers. They don't make the money, and even if they are exhausted from playing overseas or in other leagues, they still come in to play.

What I find interesting though? How all these people who down the WNBA know SO MUCH ABOUT IT! If you don't like the WNBA, why are you wasting your time posting here when you can enjoy posting somewhere else?:|


----------



## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

Oh boy.

I have a lot to say about this so please keep this going until I get home from work.

STuart


----------



## Gym Rat (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>CigarBoy</b>!
> Hey Rat...maybe Talula...is just a nicer person than you. Sorry I had to take a cut at that one, you set it on a tee for me.
> 
> As far as I know the WNBA as a league has not ever marketed to the lesbian marekt. It was the Sparks you were refering to that went to a lesbian bar for a team night then they expanded their lesbian marketing from there. I believe several teams have had gay pride nights. I do not live in an NBA city. I have never been to a WNBA game. The lesbian problem just keeps popping up in articles, forums and on sports radio. I think it is one of the contributing factors hurting the WNBA
> ...


Well Cigarboy, the LA Sparks event happened well over a year ago and is very OLD news. And, men that seem to have a problem with the WNBA use the same OLD excuse which really has little validity. There are issues with the league, quality of play, etc. that I would agree are major concerns but the average male sports' fan obsession with calling the WNBA a lesbian league is simply not accurate or appropriate. And, you know what, even it it was, why the heck would it matter? I don't give a RAT's REAR END about what Kobe, Shaq, MJ or any of the rest of them do in their bedrooms.... why would I care about what WNBA players or fans do? Simple minded and shallow, that is my take on it.


----------



## CigarBoy (Nov 29, 2002)

Rat and Always23...so you don't care about a person's sexuality. I think there are plenty of people who do and that is one of the problems hurting the WNBA. There are just enough missteps on this issue by players, coaches and teams to keep the lesbian issue in the news.

I don't have any interest tonite on debating the pros, cons or morals of homosexual behavior. But I think it is an issue that is not PC, so a lot of people don't want to talk about it. But it seems to hang over the league.

I don't have an answer to fix the perception, other than to stop promoting gay pride nights. 

Also if a league caters to any and everyone then it is not catering, That would be the SOP (standard operating proceedure).

This issue is not about what Rat and Always23 or me for that matter think about tolerance for various lifestyles. This is about what a lot of sports fans in middle America think. I think this issue bothers a significant percentage of sports fans. and therefore drives attendance down.


----------



## Gym Rat (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>CigarBoy</b>!
> Rat and Always23...so you don't care about a person's sexuality. I think there are plenty of people who do and that is one of the problems hurting the WNBA. There are just enough missteps on this issue by players, coaches and teams to keep the lesbian issue in the news.
> 
> I don't have any interest tonite on debating the pros, cons or morals of homosexual behavior. But I think it is an issue that is not PC, so a lot of people don't want to talk about it. But it seems to hang over the league.
> ...


As far as I am aware... the Storm had a gay pride night over a year ago and the Sparks visited a gay bar over a year ago. Other than that, I haven't heard or read about anything like this. Maybe the Liberty did something... I can't remember.

So - I am not sure where you are getting the info about "gay pride" nights. I follow the league closely (I get paid to...) and I haven't seen or heard much about it this year except from homophobic people who mention one or two incidents that happened over a year ago and pass it off as the norm. There could have been other gay pride nights that I haven't heard about but I find people keep repeating the same old stories.

It is sad that sports fans in middle america haven't noticed more significant issues about the league. There is good along with the bad and none of that has to do with the player's sexuality. 

Heck, maybe I am out of the loop, but I thought is was "vogue" to be gay these days... and as for the PC side of things.... it appears to me that more and more states are considering some form of legalized marriage/commitment for homosexual couples. This isn't a moral debate about being gay. It simply means that American is moving toward acceptance of gays, whether the good ol' boys in middle america like it or not. That said - what the heck does any of this have to do with watching a women's basketball game? 

As far as missteps by players, the Nancy Lieberman thing happened YEARS ago. In my opinion, Lieberman is BAD for the league and bad for women's sports. Not because she is a lesbian but because she is a self-serving egomaniac. The "alleged" Latashea Byears incident is horrifying and it would be horrifying if it was a male or female player. But I am not sure that it is any worse that the "alleged" Kobe Bryant incident. And, one thing is for sure - women basketball players typically stay out of trouble more than men. And for the most part, the WNBA is a league with few players in legal trouble.


----------



## CigarBoy (Nov 29, 2002)

I think I should have said the lesbian issue is PC...that would make more sence.

I don't disagree with much of what you stated..Rat, in you last post.

That "vogue" thing with homosexuality is more on the coasts. Homosexuality still is not too big in Omaha, SLC, Baton Rouge, Evansville, Lexinton, Charleston, Cincinnati etc..... 

You can pooh-pooh the attitudes of people, but they are what they are.

I think you are right about a few issues from several years ago being repeated over and over. But that is the perception. Those events and problems have legs and they helped form the indentity of the league in many people's minds.

Have you heard sports talk radio? The national guys don't say much but they lampoon the WNBA fairly often and the local guys just crucify them. When they aren't making fun of soccer they are making fun of the WNBA. That is when they aren't ignoring the WNBA. I think if the WNBA had a bigger fan base the sports radio guys would be a little more positive.


----------



## Comets_Always23 (Apr 30, 2003)

*Sports Talk Radio... Oh Please*

Sports Talk radio is the place some men go to air their sexist views because they figure women aren't going to listen in. Heck, some Sports Talk Radio people air racist stuff as well because they figure only a certain group is listening to them anyway.... Sports Talk Radio isn't the most reliable when you want real info on all sports.

I figure the listeners don't bash soccer because it is more acceptable for women to compete in it, especially after the gold medal the USA Women's Soccer Team won. There is something about basketball though; some men can't stand the sight of seeing women playing it...


----------



## CigarBoy (Nov 29, 2002)

*Come on....*

Always23......your comments are goofy on this one.

Why can't men air their so-called "sexist" views in that sports bar they go to, on the golf course, or at work? The radio is not some secret society, that woman don't have access too. 

I have never heard racists views excepted on the radio. If someone says something racist, the conversations is almost always terminated. Racism is the forbidden zone. Nobody wants to get near it. So to imply that it is excepted on sports radio is flat out wrong.

The sports radio hosts seem to bash soccer a lot. They took shots at the World Cup games when people were getting up early to watch the games. One station in Cincinnati says in their promos "we cover all the sports and NO SOCCER!" Some of the callers will want to talk soccer, but the hosts don't seem to like it too much. If woman's soccer is a little more excepted than woman's basketball, it might be because the players are better looking. 

You said that "some men can't seem to stand the sight of woman playing it. I don't know if that is true. But if it is, it might be because there is a big difference in the way men and woman play the game. Basketball brings out woman' physical limitations a lot more than soccer. Some guy in America watching soccer probably doesn't really know good soccer from bad.


----------



## doger30 (May 3, 2003)

ok i'm a huge sports fan wnba nba nfl mlb wusa you name it. i recently went to a wnba game. it is clear that some players are gay. it's a fact. but i also read about players getting married and having families. so it's not all gay. but cigarboy you want to talk about colege athlets, wrong subject. Butler i mean come on. college athletics is in a lot of trouple to. oh wait male colege athletics. if i wanted to watch good play for the love of the game stuff i would watch womens college basketball. because unlike the males. it realy is for the love of the game.


----------



## CigarBoy (Nov 29, 2002)

Doger....I am a huge sports fan too. Right now I am folowing Univ. of Cincinnati and Bengals football, I mix in a little Nebrasaka football too. I will see probably 5 Bearcat games and 5 Bengal games

During basketball season I go hog-wild watching college hoops. I will watch probably 60 college games live and then I follow the Cincy Reds. I will watch 55 -60 MLB games. That keeps me pretty busy, so I don't have time for hockey.

But watch the sports you like. I respect passion. Although I don't like soccer too much. If it was such a great sport, America would have invented it!!!!! I think there are a ton of sports to choose from. There is a sport or sports for almost everyone. 

Butler runs a very clean program. So does Wright State. Last year on WSU's team.......every player came from a 2 parent family, every player in the last 6 years that played 4 years got a degree. The team GPA was 3.0. Those boys make good role models for kids. There are a lot of teams with good student-athletes. Valpo comes to mind. The teams in the Patriot League 
have good student athletes.

A lot of people when they think of college b-ball programs they think of Georgia, Baylor, and they think of tatooed players playing one year and bolting to the NBA . But as I mentioned there are plenty of teams that have real student athletes,that are fine young men.

So I will watch good teams play for the love of the game and they will include Butler, Wright State, Valpo and many many other teams.


----------



## Comets_Always23 (Apr 30, 2003)

*Ok...*

Ok, Cigarboy I do think about schools like Georgia when I think men's and women's college basketball, but I definitely do not think about guys with tatoos who bolt college after a year. That's stereotypical of you. Tatoos and whether you skip to the pros doesn't have anything to do with how great a student-athlete you are. Neither does being from a family with 2 parents. It's all about character, not outside appearances. I agree that some colleges have problems, but generally all the colleges are ok.

You think my last post was goofy and that's ok. I'm sure there are plenty of females listening to Sports Radio at this very moment. I hope they call in as well so all points of view are represented. 

Sure men, can spew all the sexist junk they like; they do that already! It just makes them sound ignorant, and it burns the fire in the female athletes' hearts. Makes me chuckle when some men get so threatened that they resort to sexist babble...


----------



## CigarBoy (Nov 29, 2002)

As I sit here in my my CigarBoy bachelor pad, smoking a fine cigar I kind of get a kick out of how this thread has wound its way around through a variety of subjects.

Steroypical......tatoos on b-ball players...how about lesbians in woman's sports. Yup, it sure is! But it happens enough that people associate those things with those respective sports.


Now CHARACTER, ahhh there is something we can sink our teeth into. That former coach at Wright State (Ed Schilling) recruited character. Those players tended to come from 2 parent families, have good GPA's and didn't have tatoos. Are there exceptions? Sure there is. But when he recruited character that is what he got. If you want to check out Ed Schilling go to EdSchilling.com

So you chuckle when men resort to so-called sexist babble. I actually laugh out loud when SOME women resort to feminist babble. It burns the fire in many normal men and woman when they here or see that junk. 


I doubt there are too many woman listening to sports radio. When one actually calls in, it is a real rarity. That goes for talk radio in general. Even the woman I know who love sports don't listen to sports radio unless I am around.


----------



## Comets_Always23 (Apr 30, 2003)

*Ok, Cigarboy....*

It's nice that you want to play tennis with me and the rest of the people here, Cigarboy! I'm glad you are stuck on wholesome families and non-tatoo ball players, and what men and women tend to do. I know what men and women tend to do. So are you someone who is willing to open his mind and accept something new or are you the conformist (or the caveperson)?


----------



## CigarBoy (Nov 29, 2002)

Always23........Stuck on wholesome families? Hmmm....that sounds like a great place to be stuck. Can I take that as a compliment? If and when I get married, I hope I am still stuck there.

Am I willing to open my mind and except something new? It all depends on what we are talking about. What did you have in mind? I judge things on their own merit.

I am certainly a conformist in somethings and probably better known for not being a conformist in many things.

If you said, "I have a new drug. Do you want to try it?" Then I am not open minded.

If you said, "try this chocolate-grape cake?" Then yes I am open minded and interested in trying new things. I have no problem thinking outside the box on a lot of things

BTW I didn't say anything about me and non-tatooed players. At no time did I give a personal opinion on that.


----------



## Comets_Always23 (Apr 30, 2003)

*Well, Cigarboy state your opinions/beliefs for us...*

Well, then, Cigarboy, what is your opinion of Women's Sports? Believe it's a good thing or not? Do you enjoy women's sports? Would you like to see it gain momentum like men's sports?

What do you think about the stereotype of women athletes being labeled lesbians?

What is your opinion on anything discussed in this thread?!


----------



## CigarBoy (Nov 29, 2002)

It took me two days to get back on this thread because Tuesday night I went to the Cincinnati Deads (Reds) game and last I played a game for my baseball team. Both nights I got in late and hit the sack.

What do a I think of woman's sports? Is it a good thing you ask? That is kind of an odd question considering I am a big sports guy and in a woman's forum.

I think woman's sports (especially team) are a good thing and even probably a necessary thing. They teach life skills to woman that are very important. Thoses skills being teamwork, the value of hardwork, sacrifice and handling losing/winning.

Do I enjoy woman's sports?

I don't enjoy them enough to take time to watch on a regular basis unless I know one of the players or coaches. I am too busy watching the big three sports (baseball, football and basketball) I will occassionally watch a woman's volleyball match. It is a sport I don't play, I don't know that much about and the girls are usually pretty goodlooking.

The sterotype thing.......well where there is smoke there is usually some fire. There are a large number of lesbians playing sports and that to some extent is an indentifible trait of upper level woman's sports.

I remember I had a meeting at the old Hugg's Inn (UC b-ball coach Bob Huggin's old restaraunt). It was the night Xavier woman's team was playing in the Elite Eight against I think Notre Dame. I came out of the meeting room into the main sports bar and it was filled with maybe 40 lesbians in one corner watching the game. Everyone's jaws just dropped. It was so sterotypical. I knew one of them who used to play basketball at a local university. I sat down with her for about 15 minutes and watched the game. I always enjoying talking a little sports.

Oh-oh......I need to go work out before I go to the office. It is a short day today because the Deads are playing a 12:30 Businessmen's Special game against the Pirates. So I don't want to be late today. We can continue this later.


----------



## Comets_Always23 (Apr 30, 2003)

Thanks for your honest opinions...Yeah it was stereotypical of the people in the bar to stare like they haven't seen lesbians before. 
Of course I believe there are lesbians in upper level sports; whether they outnumber straight women, I don't know and don't care. Whether there is a lot of lesbians in upper level - don't know, don't care. Sports can be played and ejoyed by anyone. Why some people are hooked on those type of stats is just crazy, and the people who turn up there noses and avoid women's sports to avoid lesbians are just ignorant and need to be educated before it is too late!

I roll my eyes and smirk when you say:
"I will occassionally watch a woman's volleyball match. It is a sport I don't play, I don't know that much about and the girls are usually pretty goodlooking."

This can go on forever, but I don't have forever, but again I thank you for putting your honest opinions forth.


----------

