# Who's fault?: Kobe, D'Antoni, or entire team?



## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

If you ask me, Kobe is trying to ballhog his way to victory. His usage rate is the highest in the league. Usage rate simply means the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. In fact, Kobe's user rate in terms of 3-point shooting is the highest among present AND PAST players who have played the game. 

I personally think Kobe is the reason that explains the Lakers' failure this year. Does anyone also think if Kobe passed the ball more, the Lakers would not be six games under 500? 

Now, there is nothing wrong with ballhogging "if he actually shoots a high percentage." However, Kobe is bricking his team deeper under 0.500. What do you all think? Is it Kobe fault, D'Antoni's, or the entire team's fault?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Its up to D'Antoni to tell everyone who gets to shoot. If Kobes it out there chucking and not listening to D'Antoni, that's the coaches fault for not being able to coach the players. 

And where's the blame for supposed DPOY Dwight Howard? Hes playing like an average center for the most part, is top 10 in tech's, and tied for 1st on ejections.

And what of Steve Nash? 


The fact everyone keeps trying to put this squarely on Kobe is funny to me. Especially when you can see most of the time he's one of the only guys out there who actually gives a ****. Dwight is all smiles even in blow outs. Unless he misses a play on defense, or misses a layup. Then hes screaming and crying to refs.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

It's the entire teams fault, including the coaches.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Yea bro.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Its up to D'Antoni to tell everyone who gets to shoot. If Kobes it out there chucking and not listening to D'Antoni, that's the coaches fault for not being able to coach the players.


I agree! D'Antoni should speak up fast because chances are he'll eventually be fired anyway. I'd personally bench Kobe so he'll get his act together and be more of a team player by helping his Lakers out of this hole instead of digging it deeper. 



R-Star said:


> And where's the blame for supposed DPOY Dwight Howard? Hes playing like an average center for the most part, is top 10 in tech's, and tied for 1st on ejections.
> 
> And what of Steve Nash?
> 
> Dwight is all smiles even in blow outs. Unless he misses a play on defense, or misses a layup. Then hes screaming and crying to refs.


Well, I've always thought that Dwight Howard sucks. Unless he is fed the ball right next to the rim to dunk or layup, he often bricks the shot, or bricks important free-throws. I believe the Lakers shouldn't be below 500 even if Dwight were not on the Lakers. 

Oh, and you're right; Dwight is all smiles! He's not a competitor, and only loves the spotlight. He's a drama queen! 

Steve Nash is old and can't defend, so all that Nash hype was just hype to bring in revenue.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

If you had any sense of logic in your posts, you would realize that from 2005-2007, during a time in which Kobe was not only actually ball hogging intentionally, but was actually on a MUCH worse team, his ball hogging was the only thing keeping the Lakers in playoff contention, and on two occasions actually got them to the playoffs. So clearly Kobe is not the fault here, if anything Kobe's the reason as to why the Lakers record isn't worse than what it currently is.

It's the entire teams fault. Howard looks like he gives less of a shit out there than he did in Orlando, Nash imo is doing what was expected of him, play good offense but provide absolutely no defense, Jaminson has been disappointing for the most part with only a handful of great games off the bench, and the Lakers have been hampered with injuries.

The biggest fault in all of this is D'Antoni. I know I've probably said this so many times that people have lost count, but it's the truth, and I shouldn't have to explain why.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

JBKB said:


> I agree! D'Antoni should speak up fast because chances are he'll eventually be fired anyway. I'd personally bench Kobe so he'll get his act together and be more of a team player by helping his Lakers out of this hole instead of digging it deeper.


And this is where your problem lies. Kobe isn't digging his team into a hole with the way he's been playing. He's been saving his team from being a complete embarrassment in of itself. He was making life hell for Brandon Jennings the last time they met on defense, and offensively he's been producing at an incredible level, something you're continuing to deny constantly.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

XxIrvingxX said:


> If you had any sense of logic in your posts, you would realize that from 2005-2007, during a time in which Kobe was not only actually ball hogging intentionally, but was actually on a MUCH worse team, his ball hogging was the only thing keeping the Lakers in playoff contention, and on two occasions actually got them to the playoffs. So clearly Kobe is not the fault here, if anything Kobe's the reason as to why the Lakers record isn't worse than what it currently is.
> 
> It's the entire teams fault. Howard looks like he gives less of a shit out there than he did in Orlando, Nash imo is doing what was expected of him, play good offense but provide absolutely no defense, Jaminson has been disappointing for the most part with only a handful of great games off the bench, and the Lakers have been hampered with injuries.
> 
> *The biggest fault in all of this is D'Antoni. I know I've probably said this so many times that people have lost count, but it's the truth, and I shouldn't have to explain why.*


Just like it was Mike Browns fault?


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

XxIrvingxX said:


> If you had any sense of logic in your posts, you would realize that from 2005-2007, during a time in which Kobe was not only actually ball hogging intentionally, but was actually on a MUCH worse team, his ball hogging was the only thing keeping the Lakers in playoff contention, and on two occasions actually got them to the playoffs. So clearly Kobe is not the fault here, if anything Kobe's the reason as to why the Lakers record isn't worse than what it currently is.
> 
> It's the entire teams fault. Howard looks like he gives less of a shit out there than he did in Orlando, Nash imo is doing what was expected of him, play good offense but provide absolutely no defense, Jaminson has been disappointing for the most part with only a handful of great games off the bench, and the Lakers have been hampered with injuries.
> 
> The biggest fault in all of this is D'Antoni. I know I've probably said this so many times that people have lost count, but it's the truth, and I shouldn't have to explain why.


Well the problem with Kobe is that he isn't consistent with his scoring. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he is having one of the lowest shooting percentages of his entire career. 

Now, the ballhogging wouldn't be a problem if Kobe ballhogs while winning games. No one would say a thing. However, Kobe is ballhogging and losing. His ballhogging in situations when other players are wide open only yells out to fans and media that he is seeking the title of number one in all-time points scored. He is willing to reach this title of all-time points scored even if it means not making the playoffs. Kobe is trying to consistently score a certain number of points per game since he realizes he only has a few years left in his NBA career. 

Yes, Kobe has had many 30+ points per game, but he is also shooting a low percentage to get those 30+ points. I like extreme examples : ), so I will end it with this statement: Even a person shooting 10% will eventually score 30 points if given many many opportunities to ballhog.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Ok! Just checked Kobe's fgp this season, and I am wrong. He is actually shooting higher than his career fgp average. I've seen him go cold so many times that I assumed it was lower. Also, lets not forget how often he goes to the line, so that explains why his percentage is high. I would love see the field goal percentage of his non-fouled shots, but the NBA won't provide that stat. lol 

Anyway, Kobe knows what he is doing. He wants all-time leader in points scored, even if it means losing. Even if the Lakers didn't make the playoffs the next three years, Kobe will have found a way to hugely boost his stats in some way or another such that he retires as the greatest regardless of a horrible Lakers ending. 

If Kobe is willing to score 15-20 points per game, and instead focus on getting the entire team involved, the Lakers could make the playoffs without a question.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

Kobe is doing what he has always done. It's not perfect but it was enough to win 5 titles. I don't think all the blame can be laid on him.

We are an old, slow team that doesn't play to our strengths (look how many 3's we shoot) with a mediocre bench and we don't play defense.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

R-Star said:


> Just like it was Mike Browns fault?


That was different and you know that. Their offense wasn't as good as it is now and they weren't this horrible on defense.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

JBKB said:


> If Kobe is willing to score 15-20 points per game, and instead focus on getting the entire team involved, the Lakers could make the playoffs without a question.


*facepalm*

You really don't get it do you? The Lakers offense isn't the reason as to why they're under 500. It's their defense. Where are you getting this whole idea that if Kobe played more team basketball, the Lakers would be winning more? You're so damn clueless it isn't even funny. Kobe is the one keeping the Lakers in possible contention. 



JBKB said:


> Well the problem with Kobe is that he isn't consistent with his scoring. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he is having one of the lowest shooting percentages of his entire career.


...what? He's shooting 47% when rounded out from the field this season, and his career average is 45%. Where do you get your facts from?



JBKB said:


> Now, the ballhogging wouldn't be a problem if Kobe ballhogs while winning games. No one would say a thing. However, Kobe is ballhogging and losing.


No one is saying anything at all! You're the only person I know right now who is actually pointing to Kobe as the reason for the Lakers troubles right now, and that is retarded in every sense of the word.




JBKB said:


> His ballhogging in situations when other players are wide open only yells out to fans and media that he is seeking the title of number one in all-time points scored. He is willing to reach this title of all-time points scored even if it means not making the playoffs.


:gay:



JBKB said:


> Kobe is trying to consistently score a certain number of points per game since he realizes he only has a few years left in his NBA career.


Nice to see you have legitimate proof of that. 



JBKB said:


> Yes, Kobe has had many 30+ points per game, but he is also shooting a low percentage to get those 30+ points. I like extreme examples : ), so I will end it with this statement: Even a person shooting 10% will eventually score 30 points if given many many opportunities to ballhog.


To bad that doesn't apply here because as I just pointed out before, Kobe is in fact shooting at a very high percentage, in fact right now this is the third highest shooting percentage he's ever had in his career.

Seriously, where do you get your facts from? Wikipedia is a more reliable source at this point than you are.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

JBKB said:


> If you ask me


no one did Doctor Drippy - you're a troll


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

This agenda is retarded especially considering Kobe and Ronnie are literally the only two players in the starting lineup that give a damn on a consistent basis. 


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

1. They are too old.
2. They are too slow.
3. They don't play together.
4. They don't trust each other.
_______________________________

They suck.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

You forgot 

5. Their new star is already on the phone with his BFF talking about how much fun they're going to have next year.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

XxIrvingxX said:


> *facepalm*
> 
> Kobe is the one keeping the Lakers in possible contention.


Really! Did you watch the Bulls game? lol 

Kobe is hurting his team with his horrible shooting and consistent shotjacking. However I will admit that other players on the Lakers suck like MWP. MWP thinks he has a 3-point shot and shoots it at the most inopportune times just praying it'll go in. lol 

Steve Nash is too afraid to shoot when he has the opportunity. 

I agree with you that Kobe isn't the only problem with the Lakers. Oh, and Dwight Howard is an All-Star? Lol Give me a break!

The Lakers should have paid Bynum enough money to stay, and should have never ever run Odom away. They need Odom's 15 to 20 ppg performances.

The Bulls didn't even have Deng, and the Lakers still lost. BLOW UP THE LAKERS and rebuild again. : )


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Ron said:


> 1. They are too old.
> 2. They are too slow.
> 3. They don't play together.
> 4. They don't trust each other.
> ...


OUCH! lol : ) +1

Let's not forget either that Dwight Howard sucks! The only way he can score is if he dunks it. lol HOW SAD!!


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

If everyone sucks then how is it solely on Kobe's shoulders? Your argument is ridiculous and your schtick is getting tiresome. 

And for the record, we suck.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

@XxIRVINGxX!! 

How ironic! I've been talking about Kobe's ballhogging and shotjacking. Sure enough instead of focusing on the upcoming Memphis Grizzlies, Kobe will be tweeting with the world about his 81 point game against the piece-of-cake Toronto Raptors. Go figure. : )


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

From what Woj is saying the Lakers front office doesn't want to trade Gasol without dumping some salary. It's pretty hard to see how they can trade him without taking back a similar salary load and still get better. I don't know how accurate that is, but I couldn't blame Jimbo for not wanting to pay a butt load of tax for this particular team. 

I honestly wouldn't be too surprised if they dumped Howard at the trading deadline right now. If you were smart about, perhaps you end up with a roster that compete next year.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Luke said:


> If everyone sucks then how is it solely on Kobe's shoulders? Your argument is ridiculous and your schtick is getting tiresome.
> 
> And for the record, we suck.
> 
> ...


I never said everyone on the Lakers suck! Kobe is fantastic, but the problem is that he ballhogs too much. He needs to somehow get his team going instead of shooting low percentage shots. Also, why in the world does MWP attempt inopportune threes? The ball movement with the Lakers is horrible too. 

Also, Dwight Howard is a joke! lol No way in the world should he be an All-Star starter. Perfect example of stat-inflation!


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Diable said:


> From what Woj is saying the Lakers front office doesn't want to trade Gasol without dumping some salary. It's pretty hard to see how they can trade him without taking back a similar salary load and still get better. I don't know how accurate that is, but I couldn't blame Jimbo for not wanting to pay a butt load of tax for this particular team.


How long before they acknowledge reality and ship Howard to Atlanta for Horford and Lou Williams? That's what I'm wondering. I don't think that anyone values Gasol enough to eat Artest's deal at this point.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Look on the bright side Lakers fans! : ) The hole would be twice as deep if Derek Fisher were still a Laker! lol Sorry, I had to squeeze that one out. : )


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

JBKB said:


> Look on the bright side Lakers fans! : ) The hole would be twice as deep if Derek Fisher were still a Laker! lol Sorry, I had to squeeze that one out. : )


Dude you need to stop trolling, otherwise you are looking at a suspension.

Fair warning.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> How long before they acknowledge reality and ship Howard to Atlanta for Horford and Lou Williams? That's what I'm wondering. I don't think that anyone values Gasol enough to eat Artest's deal at this point.


Jimbo would have to acknowledged he ****ed up, and I am not sure his ego will let him do that.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Ron said:


> Jimbo would have to acknowledged he ****ed up, and I am not sure his ego will let him do that.


Yeah, but turning Injured Andy into Horford & Teague is still a pretty good deal.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> Yeah, but turning Injured Andy into Horford & Teague is still a pretty good deal.


But, but, but...Dwight Howard is the greatest of all time! I mean, ask any of the fools who were creaming all over themselves just to Photoshop Howard into a Laker uni and they will tell you that!!

Trading him now, that would be...wow, that would be Communistic!

Can't do that!


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## Cajon (Nov 1, 2012)

Entire team - players, coaching staff and FO...



...but based on your track record, it's absolutely Kobe's so why bother giving options? Should've named the thread "it's Kobe's fault".


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Still dodged my post. 

But to eh - as a laker fan I wouldn't do that trade unless I knew for a fat Dwight would leave this summer. And I love horford. Even if this experiment continues to fail at the end of the day we'll still be rebuilding with the best center in the league once Kobe/Nash/pau are gone. I'd much rather us buy into dantoni's retarded philosophy and trade pau for d'antoni system guys. 


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Luke said:


> Still dodged my post.
> 
> But to eh - as a laker fan I wouldn't do that trade unless I knew for a fat Dwight would leave this summer. And I love horford. Even if this experiment continues to fail at the end of the day we'll still be rebuilding with the best center in the league once Kobe/Nash/pau are gone. I'd much rather us buy into dantoni's retarded philosophy and trade pau for d'antoni system guys.
> 
> ...


Howard isn't playing like the best center in the league though. He has nights where he's that guy, and other nights where he's disinterested and almost seems to be pouting.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

JBKB said:


> Really! Did you watch the Bulls game? lol
> 
> Kobe is hurting his team with his horrible shooting and consistent shotjacking. However I will admit that other players on the Lakers suck like MWP. MWP thinks he has a 3-point shot and shoots it at the most inopportune times just praying it'll go in. lol


Rofl, one game and you're acting like it equates to an entire season. It doesn't. 46% isn't horrible shooting. He had one bad game. Don't act like he's been doing it all season because he hasn't. Your biased remarks towards Kobe need to stop now, and if I were you I would listen to Ron and stop the trolling asap. It's getting really old really quick.



JBKB said:


> @XxIRVINGxX!!
> 
> How ironic! I've been talking about Kobe's ballhogging and shotjacking. Sure enough instead of focusing on the upcoming Memphis Grizzlies, Kobe will be tweeting with the world about his 81 point game against the piece-of-cake Toronto Raptors. Go figure. : )


This is pretty much a perfect example of your constant trolling. "Kobe will be tweeting about his 81 point game" This is not something the people over on ESPN are doing. This is not something a good amount of people who watch basketball are doing. You are making idiotic claims that Kobe cares more about stats than he does winning, and then you point out that we have a problem with your opinions. I have news for you, that's not an opinion. Stating that someone cares more about their stats than they do winning is not an opinion, it's either a fact or a lie, and that sir is a lie. Even the people who hate Kobe know that the thing he cares about the most is winning. And yet here you are with literally no evidence what so ever stating this as if it is indeed a fact. And you wonder why we don't take you seriously. 

Now I can't speak for everyone else on this site, but I don't have a problem with the fact that you dislike Kobe, I don't have a problem with the fact that in your opinion, Kobe is the reason for the Lakers troubles. The problem that I have here is the fact that your "reasons" for blaming him are not only not even close to being true, but they scream anti Kobe in every way that it makes us wonder if you really do just hate Kobe, because believing that you like him right now is very hard for us to believe. And above all of that, your opinions are still very questionable. Kobe is the only out there giving effort on both ends of the floor on a consistent basis. His FG% has been good and he has been having one of the best offensive seasons of his career since his amazing 35 point per game season. But here you are making these idiotic claims that his horrible shooting is costing the Lakers, when he is in fact having a great shooting season. 

You want to blame Kobe? Fine, but have actual reasoning, not non existent ones like the bullshit you've been giving us. Otherwise I strongly suggest you don't say much anymore unless you want whats coming to you.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Kobe is playing too many minutes and losing his legs as the season progress meanwhile the offense is digressing to the point where I miss Mike Brown, no one is buying in, there's dissension in the locker room - I was initially ok with the D'Antoni hiring or at least I was willing to give him a chance and felt the talk of Phil Jackson was knee jerk and that he was too worn out and part time but now I acknowledge it couldnt have been any worse

but I still blame Doctor Drippy (also David Stern for putting the kibosh on the Paul deal)


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

e-monk said:


> Kobe is playing too many minutes and losing his legs as the season progress meanwhile the offense is digressing to the point where I miss Mike Brown, no one is buying in, there's dissension in the locker room - I was initially ok with the D'Antoni hiring or at least I was willing to give him a chance and felt the talk of Phil Jackson was knee jerk and that he was too worn out and part time but now I acknowledge it couldnt have been any worse
> 
> but I still blame Doctor Drippy (also David Stern for putting the kibosh on the Paul deal)


Even if LA somehow miraculously made the playoffs, they're going to run Kobe into the ground by that point.

I've been against trading Gasol purely because I don't like him being scape goated. But at this point you need a trade if only to shake the team up and hope a few players wake up and start playing on both ends.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

e-monk said:


> but I still blame Doctor Drippy (also David Stern for putting the kibosh on the Paul deal)


Ironically the best offer that the Hornets got for Paul was Boston's, a trade that became impossible after Demps' original "Please hire me after I get fired here?" trade.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

R-Star said:


> I've been against trading Gasol purely because I don't like him being scape goated. But at this point you need a trade if only to shake the team up and hope a few players wake up and start playing on both ends.


nah I wouldnt at this point as you may need Pau as your center after this summer - a Howard S&T is a very real possibility 

and I'd rather have Pau for a season (and his conveniently expiring in 2014 contract) at center for a year than about 2/3s of what other teams have out there


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

R-Star said:


> Howard isn't playing like the best center in the league though. He has nights where he's that guy, and other nights where he's disinterested and almost seems to be pouting.


It's his worst year since 2007 no doubt, an I've been very vocal of my frustrations with the guy, but who at the position has been better? I guess you could call Duncan a center? I don't know.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Luke said:


> It's his worst year since 2007 no doubt, an I've been very vocal of my frustrations with the guy, but who at the position has been better? I guess you could call Duncan a center? I don't know.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verticalsports.com Free App


That's fair. There are guys I think have played much better defense than him, but if you look at it as a total package I'd have to agree he's the best 5 in the league even when underperforming.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Defensively I'd give the nod to chandler as best in the league. There are others that have been performing as well or even better in that facet of the game though.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Like Roy Hibbert.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

You could throw him in there. Along with guys like Noah, Marc gasol, Duncan etc.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

R-Star said:


> Its up to D'Antoni to tell everyone who gets to shoot. If Kobes it out there chucking and not listening to D'Antoni, that's the coaches fault for not being able to coach the players.
> 
> And where's the blame for supposed DPOY Dwight Howard? Hes playing like an average center for the most part, is top 10 in tech's, and tied for 1st on ejections.
> 
> ...


Kinda hard for Nash and Dwight to be effective when Kobe doesnt give them the ball. Kobe's throwing up 32 shots while dwight is getting 5...you know the guy who stands UNDER the rim. And it's kind of hard for Nash to facilitate when he doesn't have the Ball. Kobe should be nowhere near the top of the league for usage rate with the teammates he has.

The guy is a false superstar, this fanboyism has to stop. It's over, Kobe is a chucker and actually makes his team worse than better. It's a fact.

And don't get me started on his "defense"...He's about has lazy as it gets.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Five championships and seven finals appearances bro. You guys remind me of the guys on realgm who try and discredit bird by saying he's a choker because he shot poorly in some playoff games. A legend is a legend, period.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

Luke said:


> Five championships and seven finals appearances bro. You guys remind me of the guys on realgm who try and discredit bird by saying he's a choker because he shot poorly in some playoff games. A legend is a legend, period.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verticalsports.com Free App


Ah yes the typical Kobe fan "argument" 5 RINGS 5 RINGS 5 RINGS.

Derek Fisher also has 5 rings so he must be 5 times better than John Stockton right?

But wait Robert Horry has 7 rings! he must be better than MJ!


#Kobefanlogic.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

doctordrizzay said:


> Kinda hard for Nash and Dwight to be effective when Kobe doesnt give them the ball. Kobe's throwing up 32 shots while dwight is getting 5...you know the guy who stands UNDER the rim. And it's kind of hard for Nash to facilitate when he doesn't have the Ball. Kobe should be nowhere near the top of the league for usage rate with the teammates he has.
> 
> The guy is a false superstar, this fanboyism has to stop. It's over, Kobe is a chucker and actually makes his team worse than better. It's a fact.
> 
> And don't get me started on his "defense"...He's about has lazy as it gets.


Actually, Dwight is shooting 10.4 shots a game. .8 under his career average, and 3 shots less a game than his highest usage years where he was the #1 option on Orlando. So no, not 5 like you said.


And its clear you haven't seen a Lakers game if you're saying Nash doesn't get the ball. 


Maybe watch a game or two before opening your mouth, Drippy.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Five rings, two as the undisputed best player and three as the best second banana ever. Slightly different situation kid


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

doctordrizzay said:


> Kinda hard for Nash and Dwight to be effective when Kobe doesnt give them the ball. Kobe's throwing up 32 shots while dwight is getting 5...you know the guy who stands UNDER the rim. And it's kind of hard for Nash to facilitate when he doesn't have the Ball. Kobe should be nowhere near the top of the league for usage rate with the teammates he has.
> 
> The guy is a false superstar, this fanboyism has to stop. It's over, Kobe is a chucker and actually makes his team worse than better. It's a fact.
> 
> And don't get me started on his "defense"...*He's about has lazy as it gets.*


Is that why Jennings called him one of the best defenders he's ever played against before? 

I'm not even going to deal with the rest of your dumbass post. I've had enough trouble putting up with one I don't need to put up with two trolls.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Im not an avid Laker watcher but from the games i have seen it pretty much goes on kobe.. i have seen a couple games this year where he has shot the ball 30 times and the lakers lose.. i dont know if its lack of good ball movement (which i guess could be blamed on d'antoni as well) but if kobe is on the lakers have a good chance to win, when he is off/innefficient they are going to lose...hence them hovering around .500


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

roux2dope said:


> Im not an avid Laker watcher but from the games i have seen it pretty much goes on kobe.. i have seen a couple games this year where he has shot the ball 30 times and the lakers lose.. i dont know if its lack of good ball movement (which i guess could be blamed on d'antoni as well) but if kobe is on the lakers have a good chance to win, when he is off/innefficient they are going to lose...hence them hovering around .500


That's on the coach then. If Kobe is off and shooting them out of games (hardly ever been the case when I watch), then D'antoni should get the ball out of his hands and into Nashs to set up plays.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

R-Star said:


> That's on the coach then. If Kobe is off and shooting them out of games (hardly ever been the case when I watch), then D'antoni should get the ball out of his hands and into Nashs to set up plays.


Yeah.. i dont think letting kobe carry your offense is a bad thing, but sometimes itsa seems like they forget that they have 3 other future hall of famers on their team.. i guess my point is Kobe shouldnt be having to shot the ball 30 times in any game with that kind of talent around him


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

The offense SHOULD go through Nash and Dwight with Kobe as their weapon. But Dwight has been inconsistent, pau has been useless and Nash should be more aggressive. 


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

roux2dope said:


> Yeah.. i dont think letting kobe carry your offense is a bad thing, but sometimes itsa seems like they forget that they have 3 other future hall of famers on their team.. i guess my point is Kobe shouldnt be having to shot the ball 30 times in any game with that kind of talent around him


Howard seems like he has games where he goes off and is a focal point, and games where he's underused and plays like shit. Not sure why that is, but he looks lethargic during those games and I can't see Kobe saying "Well I let Dwight get the glory last game, its Kobe time tonight!"

Plus Nash just isn't playing all that great. The Lakers have never been a very good system for points. I know its a different offense and all, but the point remains. I questioned the whole addition of Nash when it happened because Kobe has the ball in his hands far too much to bring in a guy who thrives off being the primary facilitator. 


And Gasol isn't going to help much because when he does have a big game, they bench him the next.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Is that why Jennings called him one of the best defenders he's ever played against before?


MWP thinks some guy from his block in Queens was the best player he ever played against (he also said Brandon Roy was better than Kobe). Isiah Thomas did Isiah Thomas things. Michael Jordan is the Isiah Thomas of Isiah Thomas GM's.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Rofl, one game and you're acting like it equates to an entire season. It doesn't. 46% isn't horrible shooting. He had one bad game. Don't act like he's been doing it all season because he hasn't. Your biased remarks towards Kobe need to stop now, and if I were you I would listen to Ron and stop the trolling asap. It's getting really old really quick.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's funny that you keep saying I'm biased solely towards Kobe when I have over and over also put the blame on Nash, MWP, and Dwight Howard. 

I'll repeat: Nash needs to shoot more when he has the opportunity considering he is a great shooter. Dwight Howard needs to learn how to do more than just dunk, and actually learn how to shoot free throws since he will spend the majority of his career at the line. Metta World Peace needs to stop getting HOTHEADED and taking threes when he's barely wide open. Just because you hit one three MWP, it doesn't mean you will hit the next five. You are not Steve Kerr or Ray Allen. 

Finally, I discuss Kobe. I put lots of blame on Kobe because he is "the leader" of the team. Yes, it is "my opinion" and many many others' opinion that Kobe should pass the ball more. If "I personally" were an NBA coach, I would bench Kobe if he doesn't become more of a team player. As a coach, I would want all my players receiving touches. I don't want my players receiving touches only when there is 7 seconds left on the clock and Kobe is jammed. Full ball movement would be my key to success. The Lakers lack full ball movement because Kobe is too eager to shoot instead of pass. Kobe can be 4 for 20, with his team losing in double digits, yet he'll still shoot! lol


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

3-4 of the shots Kobe takes every game are bailout dump offs with 4 seconds left on the clock. Should Kobe be blamed for those too? If he makes them, nobody gives a ****, but if he miss then its "Oh! Why is Kobe shooting so much?! What a ball hog!" Its the same bullshit excuse people have been making his entire career. If shots aren't being distributed properly then the blame goes to Nash and Dantoni.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

XxIrvingxX said:


> *Is that why Jennings called him one of the best defenders he's ever played against before?*
> 
> I'm not even going to deal with the rest of your dumbass post. I've had enough trouble putting up with one I don't need to put up with two trolls.


oooooh 1 NBA player out of 500 said that about Kobe. If Jennings tells you to jump off a bridge would you?

Lmao at this kid bringing up Jennings as a credible source for defense. Kobe is garbage on D, I watch the game's he bring's nothing to the table especially off-ball help D. 

He's pure trash, I mean he has 4 Hall of famers on his team and he can't make them better, he makes them worse.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

The blame is clearly on all of them.

But it's funny to me how Lakers fans keep absolving Kobe of all blame and scream 'it's the defense, it's the defense!'.

The offense affects the defense. A lot of defense is about effort, and from much of what I've seen the effort just isn't there. When one guy monopolizes the ball for entire possessions and takes contested fadeaways, even if he's making them, it's going to affect the effort of other players. Even if the Lakers are scoring well, it's just not good basketball when players like Howard and Gasol are being largely ignored. The team isn't playing together and it's on both Kobe and D'Antoni to move the ball. And Kobe hasn't been giving the effort on defense either. In fact, he's been putrid (that one Brandon Jennings tweet notwithstanding). Corey Brewer, Arron Afflalo, and other average wing players have just torched him this year. He sags off his man, gambles, and roams around instead of actually defending his man. The blame is on all of them.

IMHO, the Lakers should be playing inside-out basketball. Not because Dwight is the best offensive player, but because playing inside-out slows the game down and the only way the Lakers are going to stop anyone is if they control the pace. They're too old and unathletic to be playing the way they're playing.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I actually created a thread calling Kobe out for his poor off the ball defense just last week


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

also Dwight isnt establishing or holding position and nash is turing the ball over trying to get it into him so try watching the games


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

GrandKenyon6 said:


> The blame is clearly on all of them.
> 
> But it's *funny to me how Lakers fans keep absolving Kobe of all blame and scream 'it's the defense, it's the defense*!'.
> 
> The offense affects the defense. A lot of defense is about effort, and from much of what I've seen the effort just isn't there. *When one guy monopolizes the ball for entire possessions and takes contested fadeaways, even if he's making them, it's going to affect the effort of other players.* Even if the Lakers are scoring well, it's just not good basketball when players like Howard and Gasol are being largely ignored. The team isn't playing together and it's on both Kobe and D'Antoni to move the ball.


POST OF THE MONTH!!!: ) EXCELLENT POST!


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

doctordrizzay said:


> oooooh 1 NBA player out of 500 said that about Kobe. If Jennings tells you to jump off a bridge would you?
> 
> Lmao at this kid bringing up Jennings as a credible source for defense. Kobe is garbage on D, I watch the game's he bring's nothing to the table especially off-ball help D.
> 
> He's pure trash, I mean he has 4 Hall of famers on his team and he can't make them better, he makes them worse.


Right, a nine time all NBA defensive team player is trash on D. You're an idiot, don't comment on things you aren't smart enough to even grasp the concept of.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

JBKB said:


> It's funny that you keep saying I'm biased solely towards Kobe when I have over and over also put the blame on Nash, MWP, and Dwight Howard.


...that still doesn't mean you aren't biased towards Kobe.



JBKB said:


> I'll repeat: Nash needs to shoot more when he has the opportunity considering he is a great shooter. Dwight Howard needs to learn how to do more than just dunk, and actually learn how to shoot free throws since he will spend the majority of his career at the line.


Learning how to do more than Dunk (even though he knows how to do other things on offense if you actually ever watched him play before) won't do much when you consider the fact that he's barely even trying. 



JBKB said:


> Metta World Peace needs to stop getting HOTHEADED and taking threes when he's barely wide open. Just because you hit one three MWP, it doesn't mean you will hit the next five. You are not Steve Kerr or Ray Allen.


So despite all of this you're putting the most blame on the guy who's actually making his shots? 



JBKB said:


> Finally, I discuss Kobe. I put lots of blame on Kobe because he is "the leader" of the team. Yes, it is "my opinion" and many many others' opinion that Kobe should pass the ball more.


There isn't a single person right now here who is agreeing with your assumption that Kobe needs to "pass" the ball more. And you named good reasons for it. If his teammates don't want to shoot or can't play on offense, then why should he pass the ball?

And even then, HES PASSING IT MORE THAN HE NEEDS TO. Anyone who actually watches the game knows that, especially when you consider how bad his team has been.




JBKB said:


> If "I personally" were an NBA coach, I would bench Kobe if he doesn't become more of a team player.


:fail:



JBKB said:


> As a coach, I would want all my players receiving touches.


They are receiving touches...again, watch the ****ing games, it might help you in the long run. 



JBKB said:


> I don't want my players receiving touches only when there is 7 seconds left on the clock and Kobe is jammed. Full ball movement would be my key to success. The Lakers lack full ball movement because Kobe is too eager to shoot instead of pass.


Do you even bother watching a single footage of a Lakers game? Or do you just go off of what other idiots say about Kobe? Usually when Kobe shoots, it's when the shot clock is winding down or when he's open for a shot, and if he's open for a shot or even has a little bit of room, I would want him to take that shot. Why? Because he can actually make it! You have absolutely no knowledge of the game at all, it's almost like you just started watching basketball like a month ago and suddenly you think you're an expert on the game. I'm not an expert of it in anyway, but you're making me sound like Larry Bird at this point with the stupid shit you're saying.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

Its clearly kobe's fault. The man is leading the league in fg attempts for crying out loud in which proving he's ballhogging when he has 3 future hall of famers on his team. How can this lakers with nash,kobe,gasol,howard be this bad? And incase people make excuse about injuries and other bs the lakers with 4 of future hall of famers are playing together that they are 3-9 in total in which i'm including the first 2 with mike brown and the rest with mike antoni.The lakers are just playing terrible because again its kobe. Howard has said (We not trusting one another. We not moving the ball. The clippers are moving the ball so well in which with us, the ball dont move.) Mike Antoni even said yesterday or the other day (We not moving the ball.) <<Come on lakers fans take a guess what these two are refering too? Ohh i forgot kobe won 5 rings? Oh yeah i forgot it was last year he won his last ring? 2 Years? Are we living in the past?


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

rayz789 said:


> Its clearly kobe's fault.* The man is leading the league in fg attempts for crying out loud in which proving he's ballhogging *when he has 3 future hall of famers on his team. How can this lakers with nash,kobe,gasol,howard be this bad? And incase people make excuse about injuries and other bs the lakers with 4 of future hall of famers are playing together that they are 3-9 in total in which i'm including the first 2 with mike brown and the rest with mike antoni.The lakers are just playing terrible because again its kobe. Howard has said (We not trusting one another. We not moving the ball. The clippers are moving the ball so well in which with us, the ball dont move.) Mike Antoni even said yesterday or the other day (We not moving the ball.) <<Come on lakers fans take a guess what these two are refering too? Ohh i forgot kobe won 5 rings? Oh yeah i forgot it was last year he won his last ring? 2 Years? Are we living in the past?


Stats don't prove that someone is ball hogging. That has to be the most idiotic argument you could possibly make in regards to something like this.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Stats don't prove that someone is ball hogging.


I'm not the biggest fan of stats myself, but I wouldn't be so quick to make this claim. Ballhogging is not a difficult term; it's simply a player who hogs the ball and takes far more shots than most other shooters on the team. 

It would be interesting if someone already did the work to find out exactly how many shots every player on the Lakers has taken this season. No one would be surprised to learn that Kobe by far surpasses everyone else in shots attempted, which most clearly means he is ballhogging.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

JBKB said:


> I'm not the biggest fan of stats myself, but I wouldn't be so quick to make this claim. Ballhogging is not a difficult term; it's simply a player who hogs the ball and takes far more shots than most other shooters on the team.
> 
> It would be interesting if someone already did the work to find out exactly how many shots every player on the Lakers has taken this season. No one would be surprised to learn that Kobe by far surpasses everyone else in shots attempted, which most clearly means he is ballhogging.


Irving wont admit he's far wrong because its proven my point that kobe is clearly ballhogging in which is the evidence of him taking more attempts then any other players this season in which is bad. Irving also mention about the offense in which its not the problem? Well irving tell me what are the lakers rank in assist pergame as a team? Since you keep saying me and jbkb are idiots, prove us wrong. Kobe is ball hogging point blank period in which is why bynum from last year and howard this year are complaining they not getting much touches because of number 24. Stop kissing up to kobe.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Aren't the lakers like a top five offensive team or something? 


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

Luke said:


> Aren't the lakers like a top five offensive team or something?
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Are they top 5 or atleast top 10 in assist? Hmmmmmm.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

rayz789 said:


> Irving wont admit he's far wrong because its proven my point that kobe is clearly ballhogging in which is the evidence of him taking more attempts then any other players this season in which is bad. Irving also mention about the offense in which its not the problem? Well irving tell me what are the lakers rank in assist pergame as a team? Since you keep saying me and jbkb are idiots, prove us wrong. Kobe is ball hogging point blank period in which is why bynum from last year and howard this year are complaining they not getting much touches because of number 24. Stop kissing up to kobe.


lol, Yeah, I'm not sure either why Irving is acting as though this is the first time in life someone has called Kobe a ballhogger. Kobe even admits he's a ballhogger!


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

@IRVING Look at what Kobe tweeted Tuesday afternoon when NBA TV broadcasted his 81 point game. 

*"at this point, I wouldn't pass a kidney stone"*


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

There is plenty of blame to go around. Management made a terrible coaching hire; D'Antoni is a fraud coach that only knows 1 system, and that system does not work at all with this group of players. They also miscalculated the level of fit between this group of players; not only on the court, but off it (Kobe & Howard really seem to not like each other). They also put alot of stake in an aging group of players which doesn't always pay off, and sacrificed bench quality in the process. 

On top of that, Howard doesn't take the game seriously enough. Kobe doesn't react well to adversity. And Gasol seems unmotivated.

The injuries obviously aren't their fault and that hasn't helped things, but the above factors eliminate any chance of overcoming injuries.

The question then becomes, who do they commit to? D'Antoni is on a freshly inked contract. Howard is the youngest star of the bunch. Kobe is the face of the franchise.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

anti-kobe people, the problem with your griping is this (and was brought up by someone else earlier in the thread and promptly ignored because you lot are mostly idiots): he's doing nothing he hasnt done all career and that's been good for 5 rings so you're wrong, period, shut up, /close thread


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

e-monk said:


> he's doing nothing he hasnt done all career and that's been good for 5 rings so you're wrong, period, shut up, /close thread


Actually this is Kobe's worst start throughout the entire Kobe era. I was watching First Take this morning and Skip Bayless pointed out that Kobe has taken more shots than EVERY SINGLE PLAYER in the league. In fact, it was said that Russell Westbrook comes 2nd and Kobe exceeds Westbrook in shots taken by 112 shots. WOW!

The problem is that Kobe consistently takes low percentage shots instead looking for high percentage shots. All it takes is sufficient ball movement, but Kobe refuses to distribute the ball properly. In fact, why does Kobe hold the ball more than Nash if Nash is the supposed point guard? 

As for ball movement, I can't remember which game, but at the end of a Lakers win, Dwight Howard told the media they are a great team when they move the ball well. I think he was subtly sending a message to Kobe. 

As for championship rings, yes Kobe has 5, but that is the past. We are talking about what is happening now. Kobe needs to put more energy into being a leader and getting his team involved instead of shooting low percentage shots. 



e-monk said:


> anti-kobe people


You can't prove anyone is anti-kobe. Criticizing Kobe doesn't mean someone is anti-kobe. Kobe is not a God; he is a human being who makes mistakes just like you and me. What I and many fans believe is that Kobe should stop ballhogging and get his team involved.

I'll end it with this. No matter what happens going forward, I will always respect Kobe as one of the greateset player I have ever witnessed play the game of basketball. No way am I anti-Kobe.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

JBKB said:


> Actually this is Kobe's worst start throughout the entire Kobe era.


two things 

1) his usage is actually down from the last 2 seasons, back to where it was when they won their last two titles and his efg/ts #s are at a career high
2) Enough of that


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

e-monk said:


> two things
> 
> 1) his usage is actually down from the last 2 seasons, back to where it was when they won their last two titles and his efg/ts #s are at a career high


The EFG and TS stat both comprise multiple stats all in one formula. There is no way one can precisely interpret the meaning of such stat. In other words, it's a fancy, but bogus stat. 

The best analysts have trouble interpreting even simple stats like assists, so to bring up EFG and TS won't prove anything. I would be highly surprised if any statistician would consider EFG or TS as a mathematically valid stat. 



e-monk said:


> 2) you are a dumb mother****er


I disagree! You also can't prove this either.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

JBKB said:


> The EFG and TS stat both comprise multiple stats all in one formula. There is no way one can precisely interpret the meaning of such stat. In other words, it's a fancy, but bogus stat.
> 
> The best analysts have trouble interpreting even simple stats like assists, so to bring up EFG and TS won't prove anything. I would be highly surprised if any statistician would consider EFG or TS as a mathematically valid stat.
> 
> *I disagree! You also can't prove this either*.


You just did.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

JBKB said:


> The EFG and TS stat both comprise multiple stats all in one formula. There is no way one can precisely interpret the meaning of such stat. In other words, it's a fancy, but bogus stat.


two things are pertinent here:

1) efg and ts% are actually relatively simple and straight forward stats that take into account 3pt shots and ftas, most second graders can understand the basic principles even if you cant

2) Enough of that



> I would be highly surprised if any statistician would consider EFG or TS as a mathematically valid stat.


two things are also pertinent here:

1) who do you think created this kind of advanced statistic? hobos? statisticians did you dumb mother****er
2) Enough of that


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> You just did.


No I didn't. The only thing we all can prove is that Kobe is a ballhogger. Kobe's own words... "at this point, I wouldn't even pass a kidney stone." Refute facts all you want. : )


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

e-monk said:


> two things are pertinent here:
> 
> 1) efg and ts% are actually relatively simple and straight forward stats that take into account 3pt shots and ftas, most second graders can understand the basic principles even if you cant
> 
> ...


No, the formula for those stats includes more than just 3pt shots and ftas. Anyway, just because a statistician created it, that doesn't make it a mathematically valid stat. If it were a stat that was very comprehensible, then all sophisticated analysts would be using it in their analyses. Very few people, if anyone, would take that stat seriously in an educated NBA debate.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Mods (Hyperion)?

Taken care of

Why do you more than anybody insult people when you disagree with their opinion? It should be pretty easy to refute this guy, he doesn't seem like the greatest debater. Maybe you're just not that smart if your only retort is, "Five rings," or to call somebody a dumb mother****er.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

@e-monk 

Stick to the basics: Points, assists, steals, etc Even those alone are tricky enough to interpret, but at least they are the basics. Fans should stick with those very basic stats in their analysis or they will not be taken seriously. For instance, lets look at assists. 

Let's say Rondo averages 15 assists playing with 50%fg shooters, but Chris Paul averages 12 assists playing with 38%fg shooters. If this occured for their entire seasons, Rondo will retire with far more assists than Chris Paul, BUT does that mean he was better at assists than Chris Paul? : ) In this case, it's very well possible that Chris Paul was better at assisting, but his teammates missed so many open shots due to poor shooting. We have to be very careful with interpreting even the most basic stats, so stats with extended formulas should never ever be used.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Adam said:


> Mods (Hyperion)?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


a) I get tired of idiots
b) obvious trolls and idiots dont deserve respect
c) each of my posts clearly did refute the idiocy in question
d) no reason why I cant both refute and insult, In fact there is


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

e-monk said:


> a) I get tired of idiots
> b) obvious trolls and idiots dont deserve respect
> c) each of my posts clearly did refute the idiocy in question
> d) no reason why I cant both refute and insult, *idiot*


Pretty sure this goes against site TOS (Hyperion)?

You've got a long history of making compelling arguments. Like that time last year when I said Gasol was over-the-hill and you responded saying, "He has been on X of the last All-NBA teams, douche."

"Five rings, idiot."


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Snitch


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

JBKB said:


> No, the formula for those stats includes more than just 3pt shots and ftas.



eFG% 
Effective Field Goal Percentage; *the formula is (FG + 0.5 * 3P) / FGA*. This statistic adjusts for the fact that a 3-point field goal is worth one more point than a 2-point field goal.

TS% 
True Shooting Percentage; the formula is *PTS / (2 * TSA). *True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that *takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws*. 




> Anyway, just because a statistician created it, that doesn't make it a mathematically valid stat.


you shouldnt use words you dont understand it just makes you look even more stupid - for instance - 'mathematically valid' is not a concept that applies here




> If it were a stat that was very comprehensible, then all sophisticated analysts would be using it in their analyses.


you are not a 'sophisticated analyst', quite the opposite in fact; nor are you capable of following 'sophisticated analysis' so how the hell would you know?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Adam said:


> You've got a long history of making compelling arguments.


so far so good, now stop whinning


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

e-monk said:


> so far so good and stop whinning


Is that like winning + whining? No. Make me.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I dont make idiots, I just make fun of them for my own amusement


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

e-monk said:


> I dont make idiots, I just make fun of them for my own amusement


You're the funniest guy you know.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

JBKB said:


> I'm not the biggest fan of stats myself, but I wouldn't be so quick to make this claim. Ballhogging is not a difficult term; it's simply a player who hogs the ball and takes far more shots than most other shooters on the team.


That isn't a ball hog. Not even close. A ball hog is a player who decides to take it upon himself to shoot incredibly difficult shots, even when double teamed, with no intention of passing the ball to a teammate when and or if needed (keep in mind that this DOES NOT include shots when the possession clock is about to expire). This often results in said player having a very poor assist to turnover ratio, having a low FG%, and has a low amount of assists.

Kobe Bryan does not fit any of those categories right now besides the assists/turnover ratio. His FG% is very high for a SG, his assists catagory is the same as it always has been, which again is high for a SG. His assist/turnover ratio is 1.42, which means he gets at least two assists more than he does turnovers on average ever other game. But usually, the person who tends to have the most turnovers is the one who gets the ball a lot. 

Now for anyone who actually watches the game, Kobe Bryant doesn't take idiotic shots when he's being guarded by numerous guys and there's still plenty of time to make a play. He will pass the ball off, and if he sees someone open with the clock almost coming down, he will pass the ball to them and give them the chance. Anyone who actually watches his games (something you clearly don't do) knows that. Hell he did it in the 2010 finals in game 7, a game were he was having an off game (which disproves your point that he just continues to shoot even when he's having a bad game just so he can score).



JBKB said:


> It would be interesting if someone already did the work to find out exactly how many shots every player on the Lakers has taken this season. No one would be surprised to learn that Kobe by far surpasses everyone else in shots attempted, which most clearly means he is ballhogging.


Again, that isn't ball hogging. Michael Jordan took a hell of a lot more shots than his teammates did, you want to sit there and claim he was a ball hog as well? Or what about Larry Bird? Or Carmelo Anthony? Or Wilt Chamberlin? It's called doing what ever you can to help your team win. Yes Kobe takes a lot of shots, but guess what, they usually aren't bad shots, and if he's making them, then why not shoot more? His teammates won't care, they want to win, he wants to win, in the end everyone is happy.

You either need to get your facts straight on this subject matter or don't comment on it at all. You're a joke. You know absolutely nothing at all about the game of basketball despite how much you claim to know it. I've seen ten year old hockey fans with better knowledge of this game than you. Please, take some time out of your miserable life to actually watch some game footage, and no, I'm not talking about the Kobe Bryant hate videos on youtube, I mean watch the next Lakers game, and actually watch what Kobe does out there, and study him, and hopefully (not a lot of hope for you atm though) you might realize "oh wait, Kobe's the one that's actually keeping the Lakers from looking like a complete joke at the moment, like me!" 

Until you do so, you need to just keep your idiotic comments to yourself. You're just making yourself look dumber with each comment you make.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

rayz789 said:


> Irving wont admit he's far wrong because its proven my point that kobe is clearly ballhogging in which is the evidence of him taking more attempts then any other players this season in which is bad.


The only thing that I'll admit is that I gave you a lot more credit than you deserve. You're just as biased and stupid as the other two are. Ball hogging is not based off of how many shots a person takes per game, it's based off of what kind of shots are actually taken and whether or not the person doing so did it for the sake of his own personal stats, or for the sake of helping the team win. 



JBKB said:


> Irving also mention about the offense in which its not the problem? Well irving tell me what are the lakers rank in assist pergame as a team?


I don't know, please tell me, because at this point it doesn't matter, the Lakers are still one of the top offensive teams in the NBA at the moment, so that just automatically proves your point wrong. Assists per game don't determine how good a team is on offense. Good christ you really are as bad as they are. 



JBKB said:


> Since you keep saying me and jbkb are idiots, prove us wrong. Kobe is ball hogging point blank period in which is why bynum from last year and howard this year are complaining they not getting much touches because of number 24. Stop kissing up to kobe.


Bynum never made any sort of complaints about Kobe not sharing the ball, and so far Howard hasn't either. And I've already proven you wrong. As I said before, stats don't determine whether or not someone is a ball hog. You have to actually watch the person play the game. If it were the first game of the season, and Steve Nash had the most shot attempts on his team and out of the whole league because he was the offensive focus point for the team and no one else wanted to shoot, then going by your dumbass argument I could just as easily claim that Steve Nash is a ball hog, when clearly that isn't the case. You need to actually watch the game, and know the reason as to why Kobe or in my example, Nash, is getting all these shot attempts, and anyone who actually watches the games knows that Kobe isn't getting these shot attempts because he's a ball hog.



JBKB said:


> @IRVING Look at what Kobe tweeted Tuesday afternoon when NBA TV broadcasted his 81 point game.
> 
> *"at this point, I wouldn't pass a kidney stone"*


Oh, the quote he made from the year that I said he actually WAS being a ball hog? That one? What about it?

Oh, wait, no let me guess, you're trying to use that to disprove my point about Kobe not being a ball hog right now, is that it?

*realizes it is*

YEESSS!! I LOVE IT! More incredibly and painfuly obvious stupidity from your very own! Please, give me more of this! Here, allow me to have my good friend, the Nostalgia Critic, chant you on while you do so!


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Adam said:


> You're the funniest guy you know.


Um, I think he's hilarious, thank you very much


----------



## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

e-monk said:


> TS%
> True Shooting Percentage; the formula is *PTS / (2 * TSA). *True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that *takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws*.


lol Ok so you post the formal definition of this from the basketball reference website. That still doesn't mean the formula is comprehensible. 

The denominator of TS% says 2*TSA. Well, what is TSA??? 

According to the same website, 
TSA is: FGA + 0.44*FTA 

Therefore, if you manipulate variables, the TS% formula is: 

(PTS )/ (2*(FGA+0.44*FTA)

Less than 0.00005% of NBA analysts and fans would ever have a clue of what that stat means, or what makes it even valid (b/c it's not valid and it explains why analysts don't use it). It's just a fancy stat someone made up that has very little value, if any, in determining a player's skill. Why is there a 0.44 in the equation? What significance does the 0.44 number have? Those are the types of questions mathematicians would argue. 

I can make up a stat too, but what does it mean? lol 
(Points + Assists + Rebounds) / (Blocks + Steals) 
What does it mean? Nothing, but it's still a stat. 

Stick to the basic stats e-monk.


----------



## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

When you look at stats Kobe's been pretty much an average shooting guard his whole career...His stats are inflated because of the ridiculous amount of shots he takes. Like ill always say, he's an Illusion superstar. The whole fact that he still jacking up shots with 4 other hall of famers on his team is disgusting. Extremely low IQ. Just like how Bynum said Bryant stunted his growth because he would rather shot 19 footers than pass to an open 7 footer. Kobe is just not good, at all. I don't give a shit if he has 5 Rings, Lakers were going to get those rings and probably more if he wasnt on the team. He just can't make teammates better...It's awful. 

The game against Miami Kobe's average distance for shooting was 17.8 feet, Incredible when you have that many weapons on your team.


----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

JBKB said:


> Stick to the basic stats e-monk.


you are like a child trying to argue with an adult and insisting that he use your limited and childish terms - sorry

until admin does something about your persistent idiocy and trolling I retain the right mock you for the joke you are


----------



## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

@IRVING

So what if Kobe has more assists than expected for a shooting guard. That's the whole point; he's a shooting guard, not a point guard. That only proves he holds the ball too much, when the point guard should instead be holding it. 

Remember Irving, I'm not entirely faulting the idea of ballhogging. I'm only faulting it because it's NOT WORKING for Kobe. As for Jordan, Wilt, etc. Yes, they were ballhogs too! Winning is winning, rather you ballhog or use some other strategy. All I'm saying is that Kobe's aggressive use of the ball this season is not working for him. You and others keep bring up winning seasons. Well news flash; this isn't a winning season for them. They currently stand 17 and 24. Kobe needs to PASS, and not even think of saying things like "at this point, I wouldn't pass a kidney stone."


----------



## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Quick question for IRVING or anyone else! Yes or no about these players THIS SEASON:
Yes, I do know positions differ...

Overall, Carmelo, Westbrook, Durant, and Lebron are playing better basketball than Kobe this season. Would you agree or disagree?


----------



## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

XxIrvingxX said:


> The only thing that I'll admit is that I gave you a lot more credit than you deserve. You're just as biased and stupid as the other two are. Ball hogging is not based off of how many shots a person takes per game, it's based off of what kind of shots are actually taken and whether or not the person doing so did it for the sake of his own personal stats, or for the sake of helping the team win.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


U dont know what the hell you're talking about. Hello Bynum has complain about not getting much touches. He out of his mouth even say "Howard, dont expect to get many touches." <<<That right there tells me who Bynum was refering too. <<<If you dont know who bynum was refering too then you sir have problems. Howard didnt say Kobe's name but he damn sure have said "The ball isnt moving." <<<Now i'm not the smartest man in america but i aint dumb to tell who howard was refering too. Maybe just maybe if you stop kissing up to kobe that your brain might wake up.


----------



## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

e-monk said:


> you are like a child trying to argue with an adult and insisting that he use your limited and childish terms - sorry
> 
> until admin does something about your persistent idiocy and trolling I retain the right mock you for the joke you are


No, I use logic. For instance, you brought up the TS% stat. I would love for you to explain the significance of the 0.44 number that is part of the formula's denominator. You, nor no other fan I know can explain it. Therefore it's a bogus stat that has arbitrary constants and variables in the formula. Don't use it in comparsions unless you fully understand the stat entirely (which you, nor 99.999% of the expert analysts do).

It's best to stick with the basics in terms of statistics.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Adam said:


> Pretty sure this goes against site TOS (Hyperion)?
> 
> You've got a long history of making compelling arguments. Like that time last year when I said Gasol was over-the-hill and you responded saying, "He has been on X of the last All-NBA teams, douche."
> 
> "Five rings, idiot."


He should just try personal insults eh Adam?


You trying to insult someone's debating tactics is the funniest thing I've seen in quite some time.


----------



## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8872264/lakers

Pretty good read here...



> *Lowe:* I think you're a little harsh on Dwight, considering it might take better than league-average individual defense to drag this roster to league-average defense, if that makes sense.





> *Lowe:* I mean, Howard is making noise about "playing inside-out," according to our ESPN colleagues, by which he presumably means he needs more post-up attempts. Does he just not understand that centering an offense on pick-and-rolls is playing inside-out, since it is based upon the idea that Howard rolling through the lane is going to draw perimeter defenders, um, inside? Does he not like that inside-out strategy as much as straight post-ups, since the latter by definition amounts to passing him the ball, and a pick-and-roll could be designed to free Kobe for a 3?
> 
> *Simmons:* This is just one of many reasons why I don't see Dwight going into coaching after he retires. Acting, yes. Infomercials, yes. Professional wrestling, yes. Joining the cast of Sesame Street, yes. Coaching, no.





> *Simmons:* I'm glad we finally got to Pau. Here's a good rule of thumb: If you're a professional basketball coach and your system is telling you, "I should play Earl Clark more than Pau Gasol," you need a new system.





> *Lowe:* Here's something interesting: L.A.'s theoretical best five-man lineup — Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant, Metta World Peace, Pau Gasol and Howard — has played just 132 minutes together all season. The same lineup with Earl Clark in Pau's spot has already played 71 minutes! The Pau five is about plus-2 overall, but they've been horrid defensively — like league-worst horrid, giving up about 109 points per 100 possessions. Has D'Antoni sort of short-circuited this lineup too quickly, given all the roster and injury turmoil the Lakers have faced? I mean, we're talking about Earl Clark!





> *Simmons:* You left out "And someone who shouldn't be playing as much as Pau Gasol." There are two types of coaches …
> 
> 1. A coach who looks at his players and says, "How can I put these guys in the best position for them to succeed?"
> 
> ...





> *Lowe:* It's fitting that we're discussing this stuff right after the Lakers lost to a Chicago team giving heavy minutes to Nate Robinson. Do you think Tom Thibodeau, defensive perfectionist and no-nonsense soul, actually likes Nate Robinson's game? Heck no. But he needs Robinson's offense, so he's using him. D'Antoni didn't like Robinson in New York, so he buried him at the end of the bench, unleashing him now and then out of desperation for the inevitable Nate-Rob explosion. Which is to say: If D'Antoni has flaws as a coach, one of them might be a certain kind of stubbornness that affects his rotation choices and strategy. Connected to that: It just feels like he's overthinking it with this team, which is why I brought up the fact that his "best five" lineup has barely played.
> 
> *Simmons:* You just came up with the perfect title for Jack McCallum's next D'Antoni book: A Certain Type of Stubbornness. Isn't it Mike D's job to figure out how to play his best players as much as possible? The Lakers have some pretty obvious strengths: They're bigger than everyone else, they're blessed with three high-IQ hoop guys (Gasol, Kobe and Nash), and it's pretty easy for them to score. Their weaknesses are also pretty obvious: They're a painfully slow team, it can be clumsy having two low-post guys, their transition defense is horrific, and they can't guard anyone on the perimeter.
> 
> Guess what? If those are your weaknesses, you shouldn't be playing at the second-fastest pace in the league (which is what they're doing right now). The Lakers should be playing at such a slow pace, we should be having 'Nam-like flashbacks to Mike Fratello's excruciating Cavaliers teams. Instead, they swung the other way because I'M MIKE D'ANTONI AND THIS IS HOW I COACH BASKETBALL! It's seriously one of the dumbest things I've ever watched. I hate the Lakers and even I'm offended by this — purely as a basketball fan, it's insulting to watch good players being criminally misused like this.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

doctordrizzay said:


> *When you look at stats Kobe's been pretty much an average shooting guard his whole career*...His stats are inflated because of the ridiculous amount of shots he takes. Like ill always say, he's an Illusion superstar. The whole fact that he still jacking up shots with 4 other hall of famers on his team is disgusting. Extremely low IQ. Just like how Bynum said Bryant stunted his growth because he would rather shot 19 footers than pass to an open 7 footer. Kobe is just not good, at all. I don't give a shit if he has 5 Rings, Lakers were going to get those rings and probably more if he wasnt on the team. He just can't make teammates better...It's awful.
> 
> The game against Miami Kobe's average distance for shooting was 17.8 feet, Incredible when you have that many weapons on your team.


Yea, no. You have lost the right to be taken seriously a long time ago, making dumbass statements like that won't get you anywhere.



JBKB said:


> @IRVING
> 
> So what if Kobe has more assists than expected for a shooting guard. That's the whole point; he's a shooting guard, not a point guard. That only proves he holds the ball too much, when the point guard should instead be holding it.


...okay I can just easily say that Lebron James is a ball hog because the amount of assists he has is a hell of a lot more than what other SF's have. Same can be said about any SG or SF or PF that has a high assist amount. 

And you don't get assists by holding onto the ball and waiting for someone to get open, you create those opportunities for them as well, which Kobe does a lot during games as pointed out by Phil Jackson (I'll get the statement as soon as I can find it). 



JBKB said:


> @Remember Irving, I'm not entirely faulting the idea of ballhogging. I'm only faulting it because it's NOT WORKING for Kobe.


...okay, just for this one moment, lets say he is a ball hog, right now is team is top 5 in offense and he's having one of his best seasons in a long time, how is this supposed "ball hogging" not working for Kobe? 



JBKB said:


> @As for Jordan, Wilt, etc. Yes, they were ballhogs too! Winning is winning, rather you ballhog or use some other strategy. All I'm saying is that Kobe's aggressive use of the ball this season is not working for him. You and others keep bring up winning seasons. Well news flash; this isn't a winning season for them. They currently stand 17 and 24. Kobe needs to PASS, and not even think of saying things like "at this point, I wouldn't pass a kidney stone."


But here's the thing though, even if Kobe's passing was an issue (which it isn't), THAT ISNT THE REASON FOR THE LAKERS FAULTS! They have one of the best offenses in the freakin league, their offense isn't the reason as to why they are losing games. Hell, Kobe could only score about 20 per game and just pass the entire time. Guess what would happen? The Lakers would still be losing! Because defensively they aren't doing a damn thing to stop the opposing team! How is it that after all this time we spent pointing it out that you still aren't getting this? The Lakers main problems are their defense, NOT THEIR OFFENSE, NOT KOBE, but their defense. And absolutely nothing Kobe does on the offensive side of the court will solve their problems, it will only worsen them, because right now, the things the Lakers are doing offensively is working for them.



JBKB said:


> Quick question for IRVING or anyone else! Yes or no about these players THIS SEASON:
> Yes, I do know positions differ...
> 
> Overall, Carmelo, Westbrook, Durant, and Lebron are playing better basketball than Kobe this season. Would you agree or disagree?


You are correct (for once), positions do differ. So with that in mind, I will go from the beginning to the end of the list.

Carmelo: Yes, I believe Kobe is doing better. Offensively it isn't by much, but of course defensively Kobe always does better because Carmelo couldn't play defense in a public trail. Now with that said, Carmelo is having a great season, not just with scoring but other areas as well. Until Carmelo learns to play defense though it will always be Kobe (until Kobe's close to dying of old age that is)

Westbrook: Yes.

Durant: I honestly cannot comment on this one, off the top of my head I don't know exactly how well Durant has done this season, and I haven't been able to watch that much of him. Same case with Westbrook, but I still choose Kobe because Westbrook still in my mind isn't enough of a true point guard (in terms of making others better, he doesn't fit the role very well).

Lebron: Of course not. Kobe hasn't been consistently better than Lebron since 2009 imo (although I do think Lebron deserved the MVP award over Kobe in 2008).



rayz789 said:


> U dont know what the hell you're talking about. Hello Bynum has complain about not getting much touches. He out of his mouth even say "Howard, dont expect to get many touches." <<<That right there tells me who Bynum was refering too.


Rofl, and you want to tell me that I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about? First off, don't ever change what the person says to try to prove your point ever again. That is literally the worst possible way to prove a point.

Andrew Bynum said "I think Dwight’s a great player, but he’s going to have to get accustomed to playing with Kobe obviously, and not touching the ball every single play,"

Now I'm not going to act like I know what Bynum was talking about like you did, because I don't have a clue. From what I can gather from that, the most logical thing that I can think of that he would mean is that he's going to have to get use to not shooting every time because now he's playing alongside a superstar, so he won't have to shoot in every posession, which makes the most sense. Claiming that he means that Kobe is a ballhog makes no sense, because Bynum never made any previous complaints towards Kobe in that regard. 



rayz789 said:


> If you dont know who bynum was refering too then you sir have problems. Howard didnt say Kobe's name but he damn sure have said "The ball isnt moving." Now i'm not the smartest man in america but i aint dumb to tell who howard was refering too. Maybe just maybe if you stop kissing up to kobe that your brain might wake up.


Oh I know who Bynum was referring to, unlike you I actually know what he said. Next time don't change up the words to try to prove your point, people actually do their research unlike you. 

And yea sure, Howard said that, and you want to know why? Because he's an idiot. He said that after they won against the Cavs in repsonse to why they won. The ball moving had nothing to do with that. It was because they played defense for once, which has been their main problem this entire season. And even then, that can refer to a lot of people, not just Kobe. Remember, D'Antoni's system doesn't involve lots of ball movement, so that obviously doesn't just mean Kobe. Again, if you did some actual research and knew anything at all about the game, you would know this.

Oh and JBKB, I've been waiting for like a week now for you to bring this up, and I'm shocked you haven't. I've been arguing that Kobe isn't a ball hog, and doesn't care about shooting but more about winning, you've actually been right the entire time, but you never even used the one evidence that you could've used before to prove me wrong. I've decided to finally lend you a hand and show you it. 

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/kobe-bryant-essentially-admits-hes-a-ball-hog/

In this interview he admits that he likes to "shoot" more than he likes to pass to a teammate. I still can't believe you, or no one else for that matter, used this to prove me wrong. In reality I know he doesn't like to pass as much as he likes to shoot. Of course he likes to shoot more. It's the way Kobe always was and always will be. But do yourself a favor and read the rest of his statement. It will do you a lot of good. Think about what he says. If you're as smart when it comes to basketball as you claim, then you'll know what Kobe's trying to say.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

TucsonClip said:


> http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8872264/lakers
> 
> Pretty good read here...


That's basically what I've been saying about D'Antoni the entire freakin time lol. Nice to see there's finally someone out there that agrees with me.


----------



## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

He lost his mojo in New York and a lot of respect from the players. They wanted Phil Jackson and never got over it. He might do better in a smaller market...not that he will get that chance again.

They just don't have enough good players. Pretty simple. I mean Nash made a journeyman pg look like a star.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Adam said:


> Pretty sure this goes against site TOS (Hyperion)?
> 
> You've got a long history of making compelling arguments. Like that time last year when I said Gasol was over-the-hill and you responded saying, "He has been on X of the last All-NBA teams, douche."
> 
> "Five rings, idiot."


lol.
Really???
After all the dum crap you've posted in this Forum?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

baby made a boom boom! (that's going to be my new thing)


----------



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Edit: Nevermind.

On topic: it's nobody's fault. You can't assign fault to individual players over a flawed roster.


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

Love that lakers defense!


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

^^^ Hahaha I love how it's Nash of all people who made the effort to make it back.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

doctordrizzay said:


> ^^^ Hahaha I love how it's Nash of all people who made the effort to make it back.


Maybe you didn't watch Miami's game last night, but their D was no better.


----------



## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

R-Star said:


> Maybe you didn't watch Miami's game last night, but their D was no better.


What does this thread have to do with Miami? Or my post? 

Maybe you didn't watch Game 6 of the Pacer's series where Pacers didn't guard D-Wade and lost the series.

There I can do that to. smh.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

doctordrizzay said:


> What does this thread have to do with Miami? Or my post?
> 
> Maybe you didn't watch Game 6 of the Pacer's series where Pacers didn't guard D-Wade and lost the series.
> 
> There I can do that to. smh.


baby made a boom boom!


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

We should just ignore the guy and see if he goes away.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

doctordrizzay said:


> What does this thread have to do with Miami? Or my post?


Oh I'm sorry doesn't everything you say have to do with Miami?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

I said ignore him.

You need to listen better.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

I type in Retarded Star in google, assuming that's what R-Star stands for and got this.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1P5-CiqRedU/TDJjVr2TpUI/AAAAAAAAABM/Fe8iXCPgNwg/s200/patrick_star_fish.gif


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

R-Star said:


> I said ignore him.
> 
> You need to listen better.


be quiet Patrick.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

I think people are realizing now that there's plenty of blame to go on Dwight's shoulders as well at this point. 

People seem pretty polarized on if a big trade should happen, so is there any small trades for quality role players that would help out that anyone can think of?


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

doctordrizzay said:


> be quiet Patrick.


So he's a creature with no fingers typing on a computer? 

#****logic


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

R-Star said:


> I think people are realizing now that there's plenty of blame to go on Dwight's shoulders as well at this point.
> 
> People seem pretty polarized on if a big trade should happen, so is there any small trades for quality role players that would help out that anyone can think of?


I still stand by the idea that getting trades is the last thing the Lakers should be thinking about doing. D'Antoni needs to stop running his current system, and change it up in a way that he's not tiring out his players offensively so it affects their performance on defense, and then actually make his players give a shit on defense, and that starts with D'Antoni giving a shit on defense first.


----------



## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

XxIrvingxX said:


> So he's a creature with no fingers typing on a computer?
> 
> #****logic


You really cannot comprehend sarcasms, metaphor's, or figuratively speaking do you? Do you have to be so literal all the time? Jesus christ...

It's a metaphor for that R-Star is being stupid like Patrick.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I still stand by the idea that getting trades is the last thing the Lakers should be thinking about doing. D'Antoni needs to stop running his current system, and change it up in a way that he's not tiring out his players offensively so it affects their performance on defense, and then actually make his players give a shit on defense, and that starts with D'Antoni giving a shit on defense first.


That's basically asking D'Antoni to become a completely different coach though, which isn't realistic. 


Only way I could see something like that happening is if they bring in a defensive minded coach on the team. But Lakers management probably thinks they've spent enough on coaching for this year as it is.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

SVG!


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Stan Van would be ideal, but obviously that isn't happening.


----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

maybe after they trade Howard for Horford, Teague, Morrow and picks


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

doctordrizzay said:


> *You really cannot comprehend sarcasms, metaphor's, or figuratively speaking do you?* Do you have to be so literal all the time? Jesus christ...
> 
> It's a metaphor for that R-Star is being stupid like Patrick.


Apparently neither can you if you think I'm ever being serious when I respond to the stupid shit you say.

And when I'm not, yes, I do have to be literal. As long as you continue to say stupid shit, I will continue to be literal. If you want to stop, then stop being such a dumbass all the time.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

R-Star said:


> That's basically asking D'Antoni to become a completely different coach though, which isn't realistic.
> 
> 
> Only way I could see something like that happening is if they bring in a defensive minded coach on the team. But Lakers management probably thinks they've spent enough on coaching for this year as it is.


Yea, D'Antoni being a good coach isn't realistic in any possible way, so I'll give you that one.


----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

why are the 'metaphor's' {sic} so possessive? dont they know that all the most important stuff in life is free?


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

I will say again, anyone who replies to this guy is going to be on the outs with me.

Just ignore him, and he'll whither away and die.


----------



## MojoPin (Oct 10, 2008)

JBKB said:


> @IRVING Look at what Kobe tweeted Tuesday afternoon when NBA TV broadcasted his 81 point game.
> 
> *"at this point, I wouldn't pass a kidney stone"*


This may very well be the stupidest argument I've ever seen on the internet...and I've been using the internet since 1995.

Smush Parker
Kwame Brown
Brian Cook
Vladimir Radmanovich
Chris Mihm
Devean George
Jim Jackson
Aaron McKie
Slava Medvedenko
Laron Profit
Ronny Turiaf
Sasha Vujacic
Von Wafer
Luke Walton
Lamar Odom
Andrew Bynum (Rookie: 7 minutes per game)

I wouldn't have passed the ball either!


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

R-Star said:


> I will say again, anyone who replies to this guy is going to be on the outs with me.
> 
> Just ignore him, and he'll whither away and die.


That's okay, AS LONG AS I GOT EMONK ITS ALL GOOD!


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Damn it.


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Ya blew it.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)




----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

ouch


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Or just delete my post. Okay...I'm cool with that.


----------



## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

MojoPin said:


> This may very well be the stupidest argument I've ever seen on the internet...and I've been using the internet since 1995.
> 
> Smush Parker
> Kwame Brown
> ...


Yes because any of those player open under the basket is a worse shot than a Kobe 360 fade away airball.

**** outta here with that shit.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

doctordrizzay said:


> Yes because any of those player open under the basket is a worse shot than a Kobe 360 fade away airball.
> 
> **** outta here with that shit.


baby made a boom boom!


----------



## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Some of you tell me to "watch the game." Well I'm watching the start of the second quarter of the OKC vs Lakers game with the Lakers up, and Mike Breen and Jeff Van Gundy are having a long discussion about how it is great that Kobe is PASSING, and getting players involved.

MIKE BREEN: Kobe has more assists than field goals. Perhaps this is the route to go. 

JEFF VAN GUNDY: Yes Mike, instead of Kobe holding and holding the ball only to shoot unmakeable shots, it is better for Kobe to get other players involved. 

Not saying I'm right or wrong, but I'm clearly not the only one who thinks Kobe should pass more. 

@IRVING. The source you mentioned that Kobe loves to shoot is something I already knew. I never brought it up because I wholeheartedly know that the topic of Kobe being a ballhogger is not new. : ) So Irving, is Jeff Van Gundy wrong about saying "Kobe holds and holds the ball to shoot unmakeable shots." ?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

baby made a boom boom!


----------



## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

End of 2nd quarter...

MIKE BREEN:Kobe has 5 assists! 

JEFF VAN GUNDY: And he could of had five more on the unmakeable shots that didn't go down.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

JBKB said:


> Some of you tell me to "watch the game." Well I'm watching the start of the second quarter of the OKC vs Lakers game with the Lakers up, and Mike Breen and Jeff Van Gundy are having a long discussion about how it is great that Kobe is PASSING, and getting players involved.
> 
> MIKE BREEN: Kobe has more assists than field goals. Perhaps this is the route to go.
> 
> ...


From my understanding if this, Jeff isn't claiming that Kobe does that. He's saying it's better to do that than to do something such as do unmakeable shots. Unless there's more to what he's been saying and you just simply haven't shown me it yet, this is just simply Jeff being Jeff.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

e-monk said:


> baby made a boom boom!


Isn't this technically spam?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Kobe's assists held the jazz to 84 points!!!


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

@IRVING, or anyone else who thinks Kobe passes enough. 

It's funny how the topic of discussion from NBA media is about how much Kobe has been "passing!" I swear I've heard KOBE and PASSING in the same sentence a dozen times on Sunday. 

Mike D'antoni was asked, "Is Kobe sacrificing offense because of his passing?" Mike replies "No, not really, it's team basketball."

Also, gametime analysts on NBA TV repeatedly talked about Kobe's passing, and even phrased it as "Kobe is in a passing mood." 

If Kobe normally passes the ball, why in the world is it such a hot topic and surprise to NBA analysts that Kobe is "passing?" lol


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I assume everyone is aware of the fact that Kobe has been the primary distributor on 5 championship teams (not to mention every other team he's played on)


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## JoeCaf (Jan 28, 2013)

Why is it in our nature to try and find 1 specific root cause to place blame on? It isn't the last shot of the game that decides it, it's the 32/40/48 minutes that leads to an outcome. Additionally, it isn't one player/coach's fault when there's failure. What's the saying... "Success has many fathers, while failure is an orphan."

Bad defense, bad free throwing shooting, and an unhealthy team has led to the Lakers starting the season the way they have. However, last night's game is a prime example of the potential any team has with Kobe Bryant on the court. You simply cannot count them out. Not yet, at least.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

JBKB said:


> @IRVING, or anyone else who thinks Kobe passes enough.
> 
> It's funny how the topic of discussion from NBA media is about how much Kobe has been "passing!" I swear I've heard KOBE and PASSING in the same sentence a dozen times on Sunday.
> 
> ...


Because Kobe's mainly known for his scoring. His scoring is usually how he helps his team win the most. Here that wasn't the case. That doesn't mean he doesn't pass enough. No shooting guard in the history of the NBA is mainly known for their passing, they're known for their scoring abilities. Again, if you knew anything at all about basketball you would know this.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Kobe's assists held the jazz to 84 points!


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

e-monk said:


> Kobe's assists held the jazz to 84 points!


Sadly this just about sums up JBKB's point.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I know - and let's ignore the fact that Durant and Westbrook clearly ball-hogged their team to defeat by shooting a combined 16 for 48


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## Laker Freak (Jul 1, 2003)

e-monk said:


> Kobe's assists held the jazz to 84 points!


Sadly this is partially true. The Lakers are made up of a bunch of weak minded players who only try on defense when they are also involved in the offense. It's not a big shock that these guys start playing defense once they start getting more shot attempts.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Laker Freak said:


> Sadly this is partially true. The Lakers are made up of a bunch of weak minded players who only try on defense when they are also involved in the offense. It's not a big shock that these guys start playing defense once they start getting more shot attempts.


I think we all know you're talking about Dwight but here's the thing - Dwight has averaged 11 shot attempts a game this year in an average of 35 mpg - in the Jazz game he took 12 attempts in 37 minutes and in the thunder game (albeit hampered by foul trouble (brought on by a couple questionable calls (pardon the editorializing)) he took 7 in 29 minutes which works out to be less than the 11 or 12 shots he usually takes in his average 35 minutes per game 

so what has really changed?


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## Laker Freak (Jul 1, 2003)

e-monk said:


> I think we all know you're talking about Dwight but here's the thing - Dwight has averaged 11 shot attempts a game this year in an average of 35 mpg - in the Jazz game he took 12 attempts in 37 minutes and in the thunder game (albeit hampered by foul trouble (brought on by a couple questionable calls (pardon the editorializing)) he took 7 in 29 minutes which works out to be less than the 11 or 12 shots he usually takes in his average 35 minutes per game
> 
> so what has really changed?


I wasn't just talking about Dwight... I was talking about the whole team besides Nash, Kobe and World Peace who come to play every night.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Laker Freak said:


> I wasn't just talking about Dwight... I was talking about the whole team besides Nash, Kobe and World Peace who come to play every night.


actually metta has been one of the chief beneficiaries of Kobe's largesse as he's taken 30 shots in the last 2 games and averages 11 per game on the season, Nash's attempts are up significantly as well and Pau's attempts are actually down


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Turns out I was right about everything, at least if we go by what the media has been saying about Kobe.

Yep Irving and others who disagreed, it's as clear as ice that lately the media have REPEATEDLY called Kobe "unselfish" in his game. Why would they use the term "unselfish" if Kobe was never a selfish player? LOL : ) 

Virtually ALL of NBA media think it's intelligent that Kobe is passing more, and shooting less! It's exactly what I said too!: ) 

Now when Kobe passes more, they clearly play better basketball. This was evident most of the Suns game today, and the three games prior. However, when Kobe decided to no longer pass, sure enough he began missing tough shots. 

As for MWP, why in the world is he taking so many threes? lol Does he really think he is that great of a three-point shooter? I can understand open looks, but he is shooting off the dribble, guarded or not. It could be argued that MWP lost the game with his reckless shooting. : ) 

Oh, and poor Steve Nash! Now that he's on the Lakers, his assists will go down because of you know whom! : ) 

@D'Antoni. Man up and coach! What purpose do you serve if Kobe controls how the game is run?


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

JBKB said:


> Turns out I was right about everything, at least if we go by what the media has been saying about Kobe.


Oh wow...this should be fun...lets continue on shall we?



JBKB said:


> Yep Irving and others who disagreed, it's as clear as ice that lately the media have REPEATEDLY called Kobe "unselfish" in his game. Why would they use the term "unselfish" if Kobe was never a selfish player? LOL : )


...now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the media constantly calls Lebron that. I guess going by that argument, Lebron was a selfish player previously right?



JBKB said:


> Virtually ALL of NBA media think it's intelligent that Kobe is passing more, and shooting less! It's exactly what I said too!: )


Yea no they aren't. I've decided to watch some of these segments, and none of those people who have been giving Kobe praise for how well he's been giving his teammates involved recently have ever at any point stated that Kobe not getting his teammates involved as much was the reason for the Lakers troubles, something you clearly stated on numerous occasions. 



JBKB said:


> Now when Kobe passes more, they clearly play better basketball. This was evident most of the Suns game today, and the three games prior. However, when Kobe decided to no longer pass, sure enough he began missing tough shots.


Wait what? They clearly play better basketball? Okay. 

This shenanigans about Kobe suddenly passing more when he was passing more than enough through out his career started after the Bulls game. Now in those five games, the Lakers have averaged 99.4 points per game. Before that, the Lakers were averaging around the 103 mark.

So not only are you wrong in general about Kobe being the reason for the Lakers struggles, you are also wrong about the Lakers playing better when Kobe's passing more than shooting, seeing as to how the Lakers clearly score more per game when Kobe's taking the most shots on the team, something he didn't even do last night.

Now lets say you were right about that scenario, you'd still be wrong. You're claim was that Kobe was the reason for the Laker's struggles, when this is clearly not the case. You never will be right about that. Kobe is easily the best thing going for the Lakers at the moment, and it's probably going to stay that way unless some people on the roster step up or D'Antoni gets fired (which won't happen). 

So please, don't claim you aren't right, next time actually know what your point was first before you decide to change what it was you were trying to say before.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

A fish rots from the head. 

This team was the premier franchise until two years ago. What changed ?

Ever since junior took over, they look like every other team making snap decisions and not thinking things through.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Funny how the media trashed the Lakers for being three games under 500, going as far as saying they won't make the playoffs. Now the Lakers are SIX GAMES under 500 and the media are saying "The Lakers can do it!" The media will mess with your mind if you let them. : )


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

wait for it....


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

wait....


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

BABY MADE A BOOM BOOM!!!


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

its as simple as this ....the lakers are built to be a slow big half court team.

they have alot of new parts that need time to gell

they then fired their average coach who fit their team too quickly

they then hired a one dimensional uptempo coach who relies on his offensive system to make his players happy instead of communication skills.

so they are now trotting out an ill fitting, newly assembled team with a poor coach who only teaches one side of the court, without the benefit of training camp.

if it were the players attitude toward mike brown and his system, a new coach would have fixed it, 

it clearly didn't because that wasn't the problem, they just needed time they had 7 holdovers from the previous season(kobe, pay mwp morris blake , eubanks and hill) and 8 new players, they now have a real problem, their coach doesn't teach defense , and their team is built to slow grind teams to death on the defensive end.

2 former dpoy's and kobe who's all 1st or 2nd defensive team for 12 straight years and they are trying to outscore teams and out gun them...they would have better off going for kidd at a fraction of the price than nash.

they might as well tank now and hope they can package their lottery pick for a last hurrah.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Da Grinch said:


> its as simple as this ....the lakers are built to be a slow big half court team.
> 
> they have alot of new parts that need time to gell
> 
> ...


Everyone read this and take notes. You too JBKB.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

So, you think it's a good idea to take a team that has the most offensive firepower in the league and have them play a grind out game? You want to minimize contact on your older players not grind them down. The problem with the lakers is that the team is a bunch of ball stoppers and Metta Ron Peace is is acting second option! I mean, what the crap! The dude should never get the ball at the arc because he'll shoot it and it won't go in.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> So, you think it's a good idea to take a team that has the most offensive firepower in the league and have them play a grind out game? You want to minimize contact on your older players not grind them down. The problem with the lakers is that the team is a bunch of ball stoppers and Metta Ron Peace is is acting second option! I mean, what the crap! The dude should never get the ball at the arc because he'll shoot it and it won't go in.


the lakers aren't the most efficient offense in the league(they are pretty good. they are 8th) ...but they are clearly the biggest and the most physically imposing , they are also for the most part on the old side, it doesn't make sense to try to outrun and outgun teams when they are usually the older, slower team.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Hyperion said:


> So, you think it's a good idea to take a team that has the most offensive firepower in the league and have them play a grind out game? You want to minimize contact on your older players not grind them down. *The problem with the lakers is that the team is a bunch of ball stoppers and Metta Ron Peace is is acting second option!* I mean, what the crap! The dude should never get the ball at the arc because he'll shoot it and it won't go in.


How does this have ANYTHING to do with their defense?!


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

It's a poorly constructed team with too many underlying philosophies at work. Steve Nash was the first mistake. A 3pt shooting defensive point guard would have been more effective next to Kobe/Dwight. They compounded that mistake by adding D'Antoni, who just reinforces that clash in styles. Kobe at this point is a halfcourt player. Dwight and Pau are too, being 7 footers. 

Then you have this unspoken fued between Kobe and Dwight. It hasn't blown up yet, but they don't like each other. They are cut from different cloth. Additionally, Dwight is coming off back surgery, which you can say is an excuse but he hasn't regained his former athleticism yet. Then you have Pau, who has seemingly thrown in the towel because his feelings are hurt about trade rumors. 

There are so many things working against this team. Ultimately I put it on the front office. All the players involved are good players. It's the front office job to put together a blend of players that can succeed, and hire a coach that fits the vision. They clearly haven't done that.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

No matter how poorly the Lakers are doing this season they are not completely hopeless when you factor in how the referees are trying to help them stay afloat.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> the lakers aren't the most efficient offense in the league(they are pretty good. they are 8th) ...but they are clearly the biggest and the most physically imposing , they are also for the most part on the old side, it doesn't make sense to try to outrun and outgun teams when they are usually the older, slower team.





XxIrvingxX said:


> How does this have ANYTHING to do with their defense?!


Nothing at all, except for the fact that they're a terrible defensive team and if the game comes down to a single possession. What then? Trust their defense? HA! That's a recipe for going 1-4.

The offense is the key here. They need to flow like SSOL. Their only chance to win is to avoid injuring the older players by keeping the game a grace game and a conditioning game. You put an injured Dwight down low where he gets elbowed in the spine multiple times a game because he's coming off an injury and Nash has to muscle up against a larger player will spell disaster for them at the end of games when they're gassed and their shots won't fall due to the physicality of the game. They need to open it up to a full speed game. Pau is one of the fastest big men in the game, as is Howard. Kobe can run as well. It's not about getting to the hoop first, it's about beating the defense to the other end.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> Nothing at all, except for the fact that they're a terrible defensive team and if the game comes down to a single possession. What then? Trust their defense? HA! That's a recipe for going 1-4.
> 
> The offense is the key here. They need to flow like SSOL. Their only chance to win is to avoid injuring the older players by keeping the game a grace game and a conditioning game. You put an injured Dwight down low where he gets elbowed in the spine multiple times a game because he's coming off an injury and Nash has to muscle up against a larger player will spell disaster for them at the end of games when they're gassed and their shots won't fall due to the physicality of the game. They need to open it up to a full speed game. Pau is one of the fastest big men in the game, as is Howard. Kobe can run as well. It's not about getting to the hoop first, it's about beating the defense to the other end.


the have already embraced it and its clearly failing 

they are 3rd in possessions per game 94.7 last season they were 20th

they are adhering to ssol and they are still getting hurt.

the simple truth is they are only marginally better offensively 8th in off. efficiency this season vs 10th last season ....but under d'antoni they are much worse defensively when it counts thus all the losing. they aren't getting the stops ....perhaps tired legs have something to do with it?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Then you have this unspoken fued between Kobe and Dwight. It hasn't blown up yet, but they don't like each other. They are cut from different cloth. Additionally, Dwight is coming off back surgery, which you can say is an excuse but he hasn't regained his former athleticism yet.


Just to reinforce this point we have the following hilarity...



> Here's the full testy exchange when Dwight got annoyed when asked if he has talked to Kobe about his injury ...
> Reporter: Have you talked to Kobe about it, just your situation?
> 
> Dwight Howard: "What situation?"
> ...


I think that's a guy that has two feet out the door...


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Dwight's not a winner, he doesn't have the mentality. When Shaq was young and joking like a kid in Orlando, trying to make everyone laugh, he would transform into a monster on the court, like a Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde scenario. Shaq would pout his lips, yell obscenities and motivate his teammates to compete--Dwight doesn't have that, he doesn't do that, and that's why he'll always need a strong #1 option on his team if he is ever going to win a championship.


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

I'd almost rather they snag that 8th spot by the skin of their teeth and get disgraced by the Thunder in 4 games. I'm only going to get to see but 1 or 2 more of Kobe's classic playoff team meltdowns, I'm going to miss watching those.

That said, getting to hang over the heads of laker ****asses forever, the fact that Kobe missed the playoffs with the highest payroll in the leauge, and 3 other all-stars/HOFers, would be too much to resist.... That's never happened. I've scanned the history books. No team in NBA history has missed the playoffs, with either 3 HOFers in the starting lineup, or 4 dudes who were current, or 1 year removed from being perennial all-stars. Never happened. This shit would be one of the most epic failures in not only the NBA, but sports history.

I love it


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

NOFX22 said:


> I'd almost rather they snag that 8th spot by the skin of their teeth and get disgraced by the Thunder in 4 games. I'm only going to get to see but 1 or 2 more of Kobe's classic playoff team meltdowns, I'm going to miss watching those.
> 
> That said, getting to hang over the heads of laker ****asses forever, the fact that Kobe missed the playoffs with the highest payroll in the leauge, and 3 other all-stars/HOFers, would be too much to resist.... That's never happened. I've scanned the history books. No team in NBA history has missed the playoffs, with either 3 HOFers in the starting lineup, or 4 dudes who were current, or 1 year removed from being perennial all-stars. Never happened. This shit would be one of the most epic failures in not only the NBA, but sports history.
> 
> I love it


Well considering Kobe is having one of his best seasons and he's the only one to play the whole season, I doubt he gets much of the blame. A bit but, not much.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

NOFX22 said:


> I'd almost rather they snag that 8th spot by the skin of their teeth and get disgraced by the Thunder in 4 games. I'm only going to get to see but 1 or 2 more of Kobe's classic playoff team meltdowns, I'm going to miss watching those.
> 
> That said, getting to hang over the heads of laker ****asses forever, the fact that Kobe missed the playoffs with the highest payroll in the leauge, and 3 other all-stars/HOFers, would be too much to resist.... That's never happened. I've scanned the history books. No team in NBA history has missed the playoffs, with either 3 HOFers in the starting lineup, or 4 dudes who were current, or 1 year removed from being perennial all-stars. Never happened. This shit would be one of the most epic failures in not only the NBA, but sports history.
> 
> I love it


U mad?


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

NOFX22 said:


> I'd almost rather they snag that 8th spot by the skin of their teeth and get disgraced by the Thunder in 4 games. I'm only going to get to see but 1 or 2 more of Kobe's classic playoff team meltdowns, I'm going to miss watching those.
> 
> That said, getting to hang over the heads of laker ****asses forever, the fact that Kobe missed the playoffs with the highest payroll in the leauge, and 3 other all-stars/HOFers, would be too much to resist.... That's never happened. I've scanned the history books. No team in NBA history has missed the playoffs, with either 3 HOFers in the starting lineup, or 4 dudes who were current, or 1 year removed from being perennial all-stars. Never happened. This shit would be one of the most epic failures in not only the NBA, but sports history.
> 
> I love it


One poster on this board thinks Kobe is _at least_ the third best player in the league. Thoughts?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

One poster on this board thought Chris Paul was irrelevant because teams could pick up a guy like Norris Cole in the draft anyways.

But let's see, Lebron and Durant are the clear cut one and two. Dwight has been mediocre all year. Rose is hurt. Wade has fallen off. Maybe Chris Paul? I've seen you post this numerous times and am having trouble with what seems so ridiculous to you.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Luke said:


> One poster on this board thought Chris Paul was irrelevant because teams could pick up a guy like Norris Cole in the draft anyways.
> 
> But let's see, Lebron and Durant are the clear cut one and two. Dwight has been mediocre all year. Rose is hurt. Wade has fallen off. Maybe Chris Paul? I've seen you post this numerous times and am having trouble with what seems so ridiculous to you.
> 
> ...


I said you could draft for his position with late first rounders and early second rounders. What happened last year Luke? The Heat won the championship with a PG tandem of Chalmers and Norris Cole.

What are Wade and Kobe's respective PER's and your own critical appraisal of Kobe's defense this year?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Adam said:


> I said you could draft for his position with late first rounders and early second rounders. What happened last year Luke? The Heat won the championship with a PG tandem of Chalmers and Norris Cole.
> 
> What are Wade and Kobe's respective PER's and your own critical appraisal of Kobe's defense this year?


You said Chris Paul would be obsolete within five years because teams can pick up a guy like Norris cole in the draft. I'd bump the thread but it's not like you're going to post in it anyways.

And the heat won the ship with Mario playing a hell of a series. Oh, and he had the best perimeter player since Jordan, a declining but still effective top three shooting guard ever, an all star big, and role players playing out of their mind. But good try.


PER is retarded and says that Kevin love was almost as good as a prime Larry bird or Tim Duncan last year. Kobe's defense has slipped but he's been noticeably better than wade overall.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Luke said:


> You said Chris Paul would be obsolete within five years because teams can pick up a guy like Norris cole in the draft. I'd bump the thread but it's not like you're going to post in it anyways.


Bump it or talk about it here, what's the difference? I'm talking to you aren't I? I just don't care to respond to mindless twisting of my words that R-Star does and then when I correct him he keeps repeating the same stupid shit or putting me in his sig, so what's the point?



> And the heat won the ship with Mario playing a hell of a series. Oh, and he had the best perimeter player since Jordan, a declining but still effective top three shooting guard ever, an all star big, and role players playing out of their mind. But good try.


So you can build a championship team while neglecting the PG position and supplanting with 2nd rounders? Thanks, I agree. Where did Chris Paul finish with his superstar PF and solid cast last season?

Yeah, I also said Kobe was no longer a top superstar player who influences his team's wins and losses. I didn't have to take that risk but that's what I believed and I put it out there. What's the Lakers' current record? Is Kobe impacting the wins and losses and is his team a contender?

If he was as good as you seem to think he easily could have run off with the best record or at least a top record and put himself in the category to win an MVP and I could be sitting here looking the fool. Did he? No.

I also said in that thread that you could replace Dwight Howard with DeAndre Jordan on a contending team and you wouldn't lose much. Do you disagree with that? I know you said that Dwight Howard was the 2nd best player in the Eastern Conference, so maybe you would disagree with that. However, I bet the Clippers wouldn't.



> PER is retarded and says that Kevin love was almost as good as a prime Larry bird or Tim Duncan last year. Kobe's defense has slipped but he's been noticeably better than wade overall.


Except in wins and losses and stats. Last time I ranked Kobe (about a year ago), I had him as the 8th best player in the league. He's paid as the best player in the league. He's overrated by people like you. That's all.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Adam said:


> I said you could draft for his position with late first rounders and early second rounders. What happened last year Luke? The Heat won the championship with a PG tandem of Chalmers and Norris Cole.
> 
> What are Wade and Kobe's respective PER's and your own critical appraisal of Kobe's defense this year?


"Lebron James is the heat's point guard" -Adam

http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-forum/448743-lebron-james-best-pg-league.html


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Hyperion said:


> Nothing at all, except for the fact that they're a terrible defensive team and if the game comes down to a single possession. What then? Trust their defense? HA! That's a recipe for going 1-4.


If it's the last posession, then yes, trust your defense. They have great defenders on their team, hell, they have a 11 time or w/e number it is all defensive player in Kobe Bryant and they have a three time defensive player of the year in Dwight Howard. Hell Ron Artest is a former Defensive player of the year himself. This team has great defensive players, but they have a horrible defensive coach.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Great defensive players aren't turned into terrible defenders by coaches. That's just nonsensical. The only thing you can blame D'antoni for is the pace that they play at and how it impacts their defense. That part he is to blame for, but anyone who says that the Lakers have a lot of great defenders must not been watching them lately. Those guys sucked on defense when Brown was coaching too.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Diable said:


> Great defensive players aren't turned into terrible defenders by coaches. That's just nonsensical. The only thing you can blame D'antoni for is the pace that they play at and how it impacts their defense. That part he is to blame for, but anyone who says that the Lakers have a lot of great defenders must not been watching them lately. Those guys sucked on defense when Brown was coaching too.


If you just have guys go out there and do what ever they want on defense, without them adjusting at all to what others do defensively, that can ruin a team defensively. And no, great defensive players aren't turned into terrible defenders, but anyone who watches them knows that they are playing horribly defensively as a team, not individually. I don't have much memory of the Lakers that were coached by Mike Brown, I do know they were having issues defensively and I have no idea why. I'll have to go back and watch them. But regardless, this team is playing bad defense because they don't play like a team defensively, and when you have a coach who doesn't give a shit at all about defense as much as D'Antoni, that can have some bad results.


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## MojoPin (Oct 10, 2008)

Last year's Mike Brown team played relatively consistent defense compared to Dantonis. You have to remember that they held OKC to low scores for most of that series, then imploded in the last 2 minutes with dumb turnovers.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Diable said:


> Great defensive players aren't turned into terrible defenders by coaches. That's just nonsensical. The only thing you can blame D'antoni for is the pace that they play at and how it impacts their defense. That part he is to blame for, but anyone who says that the Lakers have a lot of great defenders must not been watching them lately. Those guys sucked on defense when Brown was coaching too.


coaching is a big part of defense in preparation and motivation, just the same as offense ...and its been proven time and again that coaches can have a big impact....that's why the really good ones get so much money.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Today on First Take, Skip Bayless who thinks it is intelligent that Kobe is shooting less said this: 

*"Kobe averaged 22.1 shot attempts per game at the time the Lakers were 17 and 25. Now, Kobe has reduced his shooting to 15 attempts per game over the last 11 games, and the Lakers are 8 and 3 now that Kobe has reduced his shooting. 

Now lets break down the three losses. They had the double digit lead on Phoenix, but blew it. They lost to Boston but Kobe also had zero assists. Finally, the lost to the Miami Heat was expected simply because they are the Heat."*


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## JET41 (Feb 13, 2013)

The fault goes to all three. D'Antoni has to be a better coach, he has to adjust his system to the players... which is something he never really does but he needs to do whatever there is to win. 
Kobe by now, knows when he gets like 5+ assist, the team has a better team to win because he gets his teammates more confidence and that means it's "team ball" not "I" ball. Although I do believe at times, he he does score 30+ it's because he's trying to bring his team back to win....
The team, everyone has to be more aggressive. Steve Nash needs to find a way to get the team more involved, he's the point guard. Dwight Howard needs to demand the ball when he's got it going. Pau Gasol needs to show up and play, every day. No nights off.
Earl Clark, keep seizing the moment.

Antawn Jamison was brought in to make the bench better, but we haven't seen more. Definitely shell of himself from his Cavs day.

Everyone can do better.


----------



## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

"They're really good at being athletic" -Mike D'antoni on the Nuggets

lol this dude is a clown.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

NOFX22 said:


> "They're really good at being athletic" -Mike D'antoni on the Nuggets
> 
> lol this dude is a clown.


He's a effing joke. I still don't get how this guy has a coaching job.


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

My comment from another forum regarding how Kobe the most overrated player of all time:
if Kobe was drafted to Minnesota, and his frontline was Marc Jackson and Joe Smith, and his point guard was Troy Hudson and his 2nd best player was Wally Szerbiak, he'd be sporting the 5 rings?

Tell me, if Kobe was drafted to the Celtics instead of Pierce, he'd be snatching rings with Kenny Anderson and Antoine Walker?

Tell me, if Kobe had Vince Carter's teammates in Toronto and NJ, he'd be getting rings with Kenyon Martin or Antonio Davis his best low post player?

Tell me, if Kobe was in Philly, his "Hometown" (Even though real philly heads would slice his lower Marion face off if he showed up on the block).... he'd be getting rings with Tyrone Hill and Matt Gieger?

Why is Kobe considered the best player of the 2000ish?..... is it cause of his incredible bball all around skill, and IQ, his leadership, his consistent playoff greatness, his effeciency?..... pfffff.. Or is it cause he was: DRAFTED TO AN IDEAL FRANCHISE THAT: Surrounded him with INCREDIBLE talent, a 1st ballot HOF prime dominating Center and.. HAD A PROVEN MULTIPLE TITLE WINNING HOF COACH AND SYSTEM, that had already both been signed and sealed with winning reputations WITHOUT Kobe.....

Tell me. In 17 years, what are Kobe's NBA records?

What records does he hold?.... I need to know NOW. ... If he's a top 3-5 ALLTIME NBA player like some nutriders say. Surely he has an NBA record. Surely he's done something in the playoffs that has no equal. Right?..... top 5 alltime?.... what has he done that's transcended multiple generations


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

I didn't read the whole thing, but I agree. SVG was talking about this on Dan LeBatard's local radio show. Building a player up because of their ring count is simply celebrating that that player had good teammates. It doesn't directly relate to how great they were.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

What has Kobe accomplished? A lot more than the entire clippers organization for starters.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

NOFX22 said:


> My comment from another forum regarding how Kobe the most overrated player of all time:
> if Kobe was drafted to Minnesota, and his frontline was Marc Jackson and Joe Smith, and his point guard was Troy Hudson and his 2nd best player was Wally Szerbiak, he'd be sporting the 5 rings?
> 
> Tell me, if Kobe was drafted to the Celtics instead of Pierce, he'd be snatching rings with Kenny Anderson and Antoine Walker?
> ...


I don't think Kobe's an over-rated player. But his legacy is grossly overstated.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

NOFX22 said:


> Why is Kobe considered the best player of the 2000ish?..... is it cause of his incredible bball all around skill, and IQ, his leadership, his consistent playoff greatness, his effeciency?..... pfffff..* Or is it cause he was: DRAFTED TO AN IDEAL FRANCHISE THAT:* Surrounded him with INCREDIBLE talent, a 1st ballot HOF prime dominating Center and.. HAD A PROVEN MULTIPLE TITLE WINNING HOF COACH AND SYSTEM, that had already both been signed and sealed with winning reputations WITHOUT Kobe.....
> 
> Tell me. In 17 years, what are Kobe's NBA records?


I agree with your statement that Kobe's career as a whole is overrated, but I just wanted to point something out really quick, Kobe wasn't drafted by the Lakers, he was traded there by the Hornets, the team that did draft him.



Luke said:


> What has Kobe accomplished? A lot more than the entire clippers organization for starters.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


So has Luke Walton...that's not much of an accomplishment.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Yeah, Kobe doesn't impact the outcome of the game anymore. Good one.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Nash had the highest +/- of the night.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Hyperion said:


> Nash had the highest +/- of the night.


...Kobe scored the last six points of the Lakers 1 point win, including the game winning shot.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

ask Josh Smith


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

e-monk said:


> ask Josh Smith


Why exactly?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Why exactly?


http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9011690&categoryid=2459788


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## MojoPin (Oct 10, 2008)

Alright...since Kobe gets downgraded for playing with great players, let's just knock Kareem and Magic from the Top 10, too. Let's push Jordan down a few spots for playing with Pippen and a stacked bench. LeBron? Forget it; he plays with Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

NOFX22 said:


> My comment from another forum regarding how Kobe the most overrated player of all time:
> if Kobe was drafted to Minnesota, and his frontline was Marc Jackson and Joe Smith, and his point guard was Troy Hudson and his 2nd best player was Wally Szerbiak, he'd be sporting the 5 rings?
> 
> Tell me, if Kobe was drafted to the Celtics instead of Pierce, he'd be snatching rings with Kenny Anderson and Antoine Walker?
> ...


*Career ranking*
As of January 27th, 2013 Career– season 

Free throws made – 4th (7641)
Points – 5th (31,000)
Field goal attempts – 7th (23,646)
Free throw attempts – 7th (9,169)
Field goals made – 8th (10,725)
Points per game – 10th (25.5)
3-point field goal attempts – 10th (4,728)
Turnovers – 7th (3,576)
3-point field goals made – 12th (1,595)
Steals – 15th (1,785)
Minutes played – 14th (44,046)
Steals per game – 36th (1.49)
Minutes per game – 10th (36.6)
Games played – 29th – (1,204)
Assists – 38th (5,630)
Free throw % – 73rd (.838)
Personal fouls – 74th (3,101)
Defensive rebounds – 78th (4,955)
Assists per game – 113th (4.66)
Rebounds – 150th (6,354)
Blocks – 178th (605)
Rebounds per game – 206th (5.29)
Offensive rebounds – 212th (1,399)

*Career – playoffs*

3-point field goal attempts – 1st (882)
3-point field goals made – 3rd (292)
Field goal attempts – 3rd (4,499)
Free throws made – 2nd (1,320)
Points – 3rd (5,640)
Minutes played – 3rd (8,641)
Turnovers – 3rd (647)
Field goals made – 4th (2,014)
Free throw attempts – 5th (1,617)
Games played – 5th (220)
Steals – 7th (310)
Personal fouls – 8th (660)
Assists – 9th (1,040)
Points per game – 13th (25.64)
Defensive rebounds – 21st (889)
Steals per game – 31st (1.41)
Blocks – 35th (144)
Rebounds – 39th (1,119)
Minutes per game – 45th (39.28)
Assists per game – 50th (4.73)
Blocks per game – 54th (0.65)
Offensive rebounds – 59th (230)
Free throw % – 97th (.8163)
Rebounds per game – 125th (5.08)
3-point field goal % – 148th (.3312)

5-time NBA champion: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010
7 NBA Finals appearances: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2008, 2009, 2010
2-time NBA Finals MVP: 2009, 2010
NBA Most Valuable Player: 2008
2-time scoring champion: 2006, 2007[20]
14-time NBA All-Star: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
14 consecutive selections, 13 consecutive appearances (No All-Star game in 1999 due to a league-wide lockout)
4-time NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2002, 2007, 2009, 2011 (shared the 2009 award with Shaquille O'Neal)
14-time All-NBA Team selection:
First team: 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
Second team: 2000, 2001
Third team: 1999, 2005
12-time All-Defensive Team selection:
First team: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011
Second team: 2001, 2002, 2012
NBA All-Rookie Team selection:
Second team: 1997
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion: 1997
16-time Player of the Month: December 2000, November 2001, January 2003, March 2004, January 2006, April 2006, December 2006, March 2007, April 2007, February 2008, April 2008, December 2008, January 2009, December 2009, March 2011, December/January 2012

*NBA regular season leader:* 
games played: 1998–99 (50), 2007–08 (82), 2008–09 (82)
usage percentage: 2005–06 (38.7), 2010–11 (35.1), 2011-12 (35.7)
points: 2002–03 (2,461), 2005–06 (2,832, 7th in NBA history), 2006–07 (2,430), 2007–08 (2,323)
points per game: 2005–06 (35.4, 8th in NBA history),[33] 2006–07 (31.6)
field goals attempted: 2005–06 (2,173), 2006–07 (1,757), 2007–08 (1,690), 2010–11 (1,639), 2011-12 (1336)
field goals made: 2002–03 (868), 2005–06 (978), 2006–07 (813)
free throws attempted: 2006–07 (768)
free throws made: 2005–06 (696), 2006–07 (667)
2nd most points in a game: 81 (on January 22, 2006 vs. the Toronto Raptors)

*NBA playoffs leader:* 
win shares: 2001 (3.8)
points: 2004 (539), 2008 (633), 2009 (695), 2010 (671)
points per game: 2003 (32.1), 2007 (32.8), 2008 (30.1)
minutes played: 2002 (833), 2004 (973)
field goals made: 2004 (190), 2008 (222), 2009 (242), 2010 (234)
field goals attempted: 2002 (431), 2004 (460), 2008 (463), 2009 (530), 2010 (511)
free throws made: 2004 (135), 2008 (157), 2009 (174), 2010 (154)
free throws attempted: 2008 (194), 2010 (183)
steals: 2000 (32), 2009 (38)
turnovers: 2010 (79)
personal fouls: 2000 (89)

*NBA records* 

Currently holds

Bryant scored 50 points or more in four consecutive games in 2007. 
Bryant holds or shares numerous NBA records:
Most All-Star Game MVP awards won, career: 4 (tied with Bob Pettit)
Most All-Star Game points scored, career: 271
Most All-Star Game field goals made, career: 111
Most offensive rebounds in an All-Star Game: 10
Most All-Defensive First Team honors won, career: 9 (tied with Michael Jordan, Gary Payton, and Kevin Garnett)
Most three-point field goals made, one game: 12 (on January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics; shared with Donyell Marshall)
Most three-point field goals made, one half: 8 (on March 28, 2003 vs. Washington Wizards; shared with 5 other players)
Most three-point field goal attempts, career-playoffs: 882
Most field goal attempts, career-playoffs: 4,499
Most three-point field goal attempts, career-finals: 153
Most free throws made, four-game playoff series: 51 (second round vs. Sacramento Kings, 2001)
Most points scored in one arena, career: 13,812 (as of March 9, 2012, at Staples Center, Los Angeles)
Surpassed Hakeem Olajuwon, the previous holder of the record
Youngest player to score 22,000 points: (30 years, 99 days)
Surpassed Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record
Youngest player to score 23,000 points: (30 years, 171 days)
Surpassed Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record
Youngest player to score 24,000 points: (31 years, 76 days)
Surpassed Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record
Youngest player to score 25,000 points: (31 years, 151 days)
Surpassed Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record
Youngest player to score 26,000 points: (32 years, 80 days)
Surpassed Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record
Youngest player to score 27,000 points: (32 years, 160 days)
Surpassed Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record
Youngest player to score 28,000 points: (33 years, 131 days)
Surpassed Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record
Youngest player to score 29,000 points: (33 years, 199 days)
Surpassed Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record
Youngest player to score 30,000 points: (34 years, 104 days)
Surpassed Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record
Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Rookie Team: (1996–97)
Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Defensive Team: (1999–00)
Youngest player to start a game: (18 years, 158 days)
Youngest player to start an All-Star game
Youngest player to win the NBA Slam Dunk Championship: (18 years, 169 days)
Only player in NBA history to score at least 600 points in the postseason for three consecutive years. 633 (2008), 695 (2009), 671 (2010)

*Previously held* ~
Youngest player to score 20,000 points: (29 years, 122 days)
Surpassed by Lebron James (28 years, 17 days) on January 16, 2013.
Chamberlain (29 years, 134 days)[54], Michael Jordan (29 years, 326 days), Bryant, and James are the only four players to reach the milestone under the age of 30.
Youngest player to score 18,000 points: (28 years, 156 days)
Surpassed by Lebron James (27 years, 35 days) on February 3, 2012.
Youngest player to score 15,000 points: (27 years, 136 days)
Surpassed by LeBron James (25 years, 79 days) on March 19, 2010
Youngest player to score 10,000 points: (24 years, 193 days) on March 4, 2003
Surpassed by LeBron James (23 years, 59 days) on February 27, 2008
Youngest player to appear in an NBA game: (18 years, 72 days) on November 3, 1996
Broken by Jermaine O'Neal and Andrew Bynum


....


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Pretty sure he either scored or assisted our last twenty points last night. No impact whatsoever.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

NOFX22 said:


> Tell me, if Kobe was drafted to the Celtics instead of Pierce, he'd be snatching rings with Kenny Anderson and Antoine Walker?


I think most Celtic fans would tell you that they wished that Boston had selected Bryant instead of _Antoine Walker_. Even at the time. The Bryant/Pierce Celtics would have been one of the greatest asshole teams in NBA history.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

but think of all toine you would have missed out on


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

Luke said:


> Pretty sure he either scored or assisted our last twenty points last night. No impact whatsoever.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Yea the highest payroll in the league, with the highest paid player in the league, with 4 HOFers on the roster, that was most people's Finals pick for the west. At %.500 through 62 games....huge impact


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

e-monk said:


> but think of all toine you would have missed out on


Just think of what the NBA world lost out on, though. Because Pierce and Bryant are probably two of the biggest assholes in NBA history. As a tandem they would have been the backbone of one of the most entertaining teams in NBA history.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

NOFX22 said:


> Yea the highest payroll in the league, with the highest paid player in the league, with 4 HOFers on the roster, that was most people's Finals pick for the west. At %.500 through 62 games....huge impact


How many games have the four hofers played together again?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

NOFX22 said:


> Yea the highest payroll in the league, with the highest paid player in the league, with 4 HOFers on the roster, that was most people's Finals pick for the west. At %.500 through 62 games....huge impact


well that's one (decontextualized) way of looking at it I guess - sort of ignores the fact that Steve Nash missed 20 games and is 38 and that Pau has missed 20 games and counting and that Howard is playing at less than 100% etc etc etc but you're not wrong Walter...


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

People are also ignoring the fact that HOF Nash is nearly washed-up. Why else would Kobe steal his job? OUCH! Sorry guys.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

JBKB said:


> People are also ignoring the fact that HOF Nash is nearly washed-up. Why else would Kobe steal his job? OUCH! Sorry guys.


What exactly are you being sorry about? This pretty much proves your entire statement wrong if anything.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

JBKB said:


> People are also ignoring the fact that HOF Nash is nearly washed-up. Why else would Kobe steal his job? OUCH! Sorry guys.


There is a reason there are 24 seconds on a shot clock and Kobe's Jersey is 24 because that's how long he wants the ball in a shot clock.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Hyperion said:


> There is a reason there are 24 seconds on a shot clock and Kobe's Jersey is 24 because that's how long he wants the ball in a shot clock.


Oh, Kobe wears 24? I never pay attention to any player's jersey number. 

Anyway, I honestly don't understand why there is a 24 second rule per possession. It only adds luck to the game if you ask me. : ) Seriously, why make players force bad shots as they approach ten seconds or less?


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

If the Lakers are going to make the playoffs, they better not reach too high. They need to hold on dearly to that 8th seed and hope they can play the spurs, who have some dudes that are similar age and speed as LA. With parker just coming back and rusty, and the Spurs playing half court, they have a shot in hell to catch them... even though the Spurs depth and ball movement would rape LA.

If they get the 7th, 6th spots, they have NO SHOT to beat fast, athletic teams like OKC and Clippers... NONE. and they better hope to GOD they don't somehow run into the Nuggets down the road.... Best bet for LA is to sneak into the playoffs, snag that 8th seed and hope Parker and the Spurs nut up another #1 seed... (If Parker is healthy, he has a long RAPE history against Nash, and it could get ugly.) then hope to GOD that Memphis beats Denver in the 1st round... and they can play halfcourt ball again with Memphis and us Dwight and Gasol to deal with Zeebo and little Gasol.

Don't get me wrong, Spurs and Memphis would still probably beat LA... but LA would have a fighting chance... against OKC, Denver, Clippers.. No ****ing shot in hell. those teams are too fast and would score WAY too easily in abundance on them.

I'm still holding out hope LA misses the playoffs, just so I can give all the LA ****boy fans some shit though


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

NOFX22 said:


> If the Lakers are going to make the playoffs, they better not reach too high. They need to hold on dearly to that 8th seed and hope they can play the spurs, who have some dudes that are similar age and speed as LA. With parker just coming back and rusty, and the Spurs playing half court, they have a shot in hell to catch them... even though the Spurs depth and ball movement would rape LA.
> 
> If they get the 7th, 6th spots, they have NO SHOT to beat fast, athletic teams like OKC and Clippers... NONE. and they better hope to GOD they don't somehow run into the Nuggets down the road.... Best bet for LA is to sneak into the playoffs, snag that 8th seed and hope Parker and the Spurs nut up another #1 seed... (If Parker is healthy, he has a long RAPE history against Nash, and it could get ugly.) then hope to GOD that Memphis beats Denver in the 1st round... and they can play halfcourt ball again with Memphis and us Dwight and Gasol to deal with Zeebo and little Gasol.
> 
> ...


So mad.


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## KobeConfidence (Sep 10, 2012)

How could this be Kobe's fault at all when the dude is averaging 27 5 5? Who the hell does that at age 34? Not even MJ. Dude is the 3rd best player in the league behind lebron and durant. L.A. would be good enough to win a championship if Gasol was first of all even playing, and second of all when he plays, play like 08-10 form. A least they're getting back in the playoff hunt but it really is baffling how in 2010-11 and 2011-12 they at least made the playoffs and were relatively good and that was considered a failure.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

I've barely read this thread. It's not Kobe's fault. Just looking at stats won't tell you that, though. Every year, players put up great stats while ultimately being pernicious to their team's success. He's been one of the reasons for their awful D, but you can only expect so much from a 34-year-old doing so much offensively. Ultimately, you can't blame a guy having his best season in years at his age.

Say what you will about defense or occasionally evading team play, but he'd easily be an MVP candidate somewhere around Durant and Paul if the Lakers were a top-4 seed.

There's a lot of blame pie to go around, though it's not as large and rotten as it was 20 or so games ago. Dwight's health and mental approach are probably public enemy no. 1. I mean, clearly he's not the player he was in ORL. I think the majority of that is his health, but some of it can be attributed to his mind. Somewhere between ORL and LA he became convinced that he needed to play like Shaq, or a classic pre-00's C. Though he's greatly improved in the low-post and facing up, his bread and butter is his claim to fame as the best pick-and-roll big in the league. Perhaps Shaq screwed that all up by purporting he had to fit the 90's C paradigm in order to be validated as a dominant C. Clearly that got in Dwight's head, and he's forgotten what's made him effective his entire career. Set hard screens. Roll strong to the rim. Make yourself a big target for the pass. 

On paper, the Kobe/Dwight pick-and-roll should be devastating. It takes two to tango, though. Both have to be on that page. If Dwight isn't setting hard screens, and Kobe is only hunting for his own shot off the screen, it won't work. You need both. All Dwight has to do is screen and roll for Nash consistently to get himself and the O going, though. To me, that's the difference between D'Antoni being an abject failure as a hire for LAL, or a suitable fit. 

It's that, and Dwight's inability to shut down the lane like we're used to, that has drastically lowered the ceiling on what many thought the Lakers would be. The defensive side is what I'd feel you'd _have _to attribute to health. Say what you will about the 'Antoni system or perimeter personnel, but watching the games your eyes will tell you Dwight's not protecting the paint like he used to. That's something that's so ingrained in instinct and pride, you'd have to believe its absence is health-related.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

NOFX22 said:


> If the Lakers are going to make the playoffs, they better not reach too high. They need to hold on dearly to that 8th seed and hope they can play the spurs, who have some dudes that are similar age and speed as LA. With parker just coming back and rusty, and the Spurs playing half court, they have a shot in hell to catch them... even though the Spurs depth and ball movement would rape LA.
> 
> If they get the 7th, 6th spots, they have NO SHOT to beat fast, athletic teams like OKC and Clippers... NONE. and they better hope to GOD they don't somehow run into the Nuggets down the road.... Best bet for LA is to sneak into the playoffs, snag that 8th seed and hope Parker and the Spurs nut up another #1 seed... (If Parker is healthy, he has a long RAPE history against Nash, and it could get ugly.) then hope to GOD that Memphis beats Denver in the 1st round... and they can play halfcourt ball again with Memphis and us Dwight and Gasol to deal with Zeebo and little Gasol.
> 
> ...


You had a decent post going, and then you spread your cheeks and defecated on it with the last line. RIP.

As far as the playoffs...there are up to five teams LAL could play in the 1st-round: SA, OKC, LAC, MEM, and DEN.
*
Spurs* - Really bad matchup for the Lakers. Can run or play half-court very efficiently. Best offensive system in the league. Extremely deep. Good enough defense and enough size to combat LAL's strengths up front. Parker would obliterate the D on his own.

*Thunder *- Also have the front court personnel to deal with LAL. Impossible matchups with Durant and Westbrook. Only hope for LAL is if RW goes full-retard the entire series.

*Clippers* - Tons of depth and a high-ceiling, uber-athletic front court. Combine that with the presence of at least one elite superstar in CP3, and a potential superstar in Griffin. Even if it winds up being a battle of attrition, gotta believe the Clippers take it.
*
Memphis* - Have the defense to take away the best LAL has to offer. Their biggest weakest is offense, but defense being LAL's biggest weakness helps them out there. Conley can have a field day in this series, and Gasol and Z-Bo figure to dominate. Tony Allen is an ideal defender to put on Kobe for a series. Another uphill battle for the Lakers. I feel like Gay being gone only makes them tougher here.
*
Denver* - Probably LAL's best chance. The combination of insane home court advantage, Denver's speed/athleticism, their ability to counter with Dwight's physical attributes, their depth, and the potential for Ty Lawson to go ape shit in the postseason hurts the Lakers' chances. Ultimately playoff series often come down to who has the superstars, so LAL no doubt has a chance.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

can we take a moment here and just give Kobe Bean his due or is there just too much hate for even the most obvious?


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

e-monk said:


> can we take a moment here and just give Kobe Bean his due or is there just too much hate for even the most obvious?


Nope! Kobe had referee assistance. Offensive foul on Rudy Gay late in the fourth... sure!


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

e-monk said:


> can we take a moment here and just give Kobe Bean his due or is there just too much hate for even the most obvious?


And some people will never acknowledge Jordan was a great player.

And some people will never acknowledge Wilt's greatness.

And some people cannot accept that Bill Clinton was once the president of this country.

Are you beginning to see the camp where people like JBKB reside?

Hint: If enough posters put him on ignore, he will finally get the fact that people are not reacting to his numbskull-like behavior.

Unfortunately for admins, we can't put these clowns on ignore. We have to endure them.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Losing respect for my fellow Laker fans here. JBKB isn't even trying that hard and he's still getting to you.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

He's not getting to me at all. He's fun to have around. Makes the board a little more active. Works for me. I know he's just trolling.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Ron said:


> And some people will never acknowledge Jordan was a great player.
> 
> And some people will never acknowledge Wilt's greatness.
> 
> ...


Ignore what, the truth?... That Kobe DOES get help from referees, and I am nowhere close to being the first to ever express that thought. lol 

As for Jordan, I acknowledge his greatness. 

Wilt! I don't know. Did you even know that many people have said that Wilt's teammates were passing him the ball over and over just so he can get 100? Sounds like counterfeiting if that is true. 

Clinton was our president. 

Kobe does get help from referees. Most superstars get favoritism from referees, something which is constantly brought up by analysts. 

Ignoring the truth doesn't eliminate the truth.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (little troll baby)


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Maybe Wilt's teammates kept passing him the ball because...I don't know...HE WAS WILT ****ING CHAMBERLAIN. Not to mention, you feed the hot hand. It's basketball.



Basel said:


> He's not getting to me at all. He's fun to have around. Makes the board a little more active. Works for me. I know he's just trolling.


Agreed. It's nice to have another foil/heel around. DD has gotten stale.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

JBKB said:


> Ignore what, the truth?... That Kobe DOES get help from referees, and I am nowhere close to being the first to ever express that thought. lol
> 
> As for Jordan, I acknowledge his greatness.
> 
> ...


You guys are still trying to remind us he's a troll after posts like this? Really? Isn't this something that pretty much goes without saying?


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

I've seen Kobe's whole career, start to finish and payed close attention. I got cousins, aunties and uncles all over L.A., and half my damn idiot friends are laker bandwagon clowns... I've had regular debates about this dudes career, in the moment when it's was happening, game by game damn near, playoff season after season, year after year.... I've watched this dude chuck a gazillion of the most ill advised shots that have ever surfaced into the basketball lexicon, seen him shoot horrible %FG and have dominant front lines make up for it... Seen him QUIT on his team, seen his team QUIT on him at the same time, and watched him have some of the most gutless, deplorable efforts with his back against the wall in the playoffs, of any elite player ever... ever. Seen the NBA make a mockery of the All-NBA first team, by awarding him the honor year after year, despite him playing terrible gambling defense, never taking charges or putting full effort in save for every blue moon, for the better part of a decade He is a high volume shot chucker, that landed in great conditions to have a productive career... Never faced much adversity on bad teams, and when he did he QUIT on the court and threw everyone in ****ing sight under the bus like a tyrant....... Dude's greatness and "Clutch" ability is one of the biggest myths in the history of sports.... He doesn't do anything better than any of the alltime greats, outside the sheer relentless insistence to jack up and shot humanly possible, in any situation, good or bad.... Better leader than Jordan, Bird, Magic? Better defender than Olajuwon, Duncan, Russell? More clutch than Bird, Jordan? Dominated the defense more than Shaq, Wilt, Jordan?

What did he historically do better than all the rest of the all-time greats, that puts him top 5 alltime, outside take an inordinate amount of shots at a mediocre %?.......

I'll give you a hint: nothing.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

NOFX22 said:


> I've seen Kobe's whole career, start to finish and payed close attention. I got cousins, aunties and uncles all over L.A., and half my damn idiot friends are laker bandwagon clowns... I've had regular debates about this dudes career, in the moment when it's was happening, game by game damn near, playoff season after season, year after year.... I've watched this dude chuck a gazillion of the most ill advised shots that have ever surfaced into the basketball lexicon, seen him shoot horrible %FG and have dominant front lines make up for it... Seen him QUIT on his team, seen his team QUIT on him at the same time, and watched him have some of the most gutless, deplorable efforts with his back against the wall in the playoffs, of any elite player ever... ever. Seen the NBA make a mockery of the All-NBA first team, by awarding him the honor year after year, despite him playing terrible gambling defense, never taking charges or putting full effort in save for every blue moon, for the better part of a decade He is a high volume shot chucker, that landed in great conditions to have a productive career... Never faced much adversity on bad teams, and when he did he QUIT on the court and threw everyone in ****ing sight under the bus like a tyrant....... Dude's greatness and "Clutch" ability is one of the biggest myths in the history of sports.... He doesn't do anything better than any of the alltime greats, outside the sheer relentless insistence to jack up and shot humanly possible, in any situation, good or bad.... Better leader than Jordan, Bird, Magic? Better defender than Olajuwon, Duncan, Russell? More clutch than Bird, Jordan? Dominated the defense more than Shaq, Wilt, Jordan?
> 
> What did he historically do better than all the rest of the all-time greats, that puts him top 5 alltime, outside take an inordinate amount of shots at a mediocre %?.......
> 
> I'll give you a hint: nothing.


I LIKE THIS POST!  A LOT!!!

I don't agree with the overall message, but so much truth is in this post.  This post, if taken seriously, will make a serious observer of the game question how much credit we give Kobe once he retires. Even though Kobe is without a doubt among the most talented I've ever seen play, THERE IS STILL SO MUCH TRUTH TO YOUR POST ABOVE! 

Nice post!


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## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

JBKB = NOFX22

Fat Mike is a hack.


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## Laker Freak (Jul 1, 2003)

NOFX22 said:


> I've seen Kobe's whole career, start to finish and payed close attention. I got cousins, aunties and uncles all over L.A., and half my damn idiot friends are laker bandwagon clowns... I've had regular debates about this dudes career, in the moment when it's was happening, game by game damn near, playoff season after season, year after year.... I've watched this dude chuck a gazillion of the most ill advised shots that have ever surfaced into the basketball lexicon, seen him shoot horrible %FG and have dominant front lines make up for it... Seen him QUIT on his team, seen his team QUIT on him at the same time, and watched him have some of the most gutless, deplorable efforts with his back against the wall in the playoffs, of any elite player ever... ever. Seen the NBA make a mockery of the All-NBA first team, by awarding him the honor year after year, despite him playing terrible gambling defense, never taking charges or putting full effort in save for every blue moon, for the better part of a decade He is a high volume shot chucker, that landed in great conditions to have a productive career... Never faced much adversity on bad teams, and when he did he QUIT on the court and threw everyone in ****ing sight under the bus like a tyrant....... Dude's greatness and "Clutch" ability is one of the biggest myths in the history of sports.... He doesn't do anything better than any of the alltime greats, outside the sheer relentless insistence to jack up and shot humanly possible, in any situation, good or bad.... *Better leader than Jordan, Bird, Magic? Better defender than Olajuwon, Duncan, Russell? More clutch than Bird, Jordan? Dominated the defense more than Shaq, Wilt, Jordan?
> *
> What did he historically do better than all the rest of the all-time greats, that puts him top 5 alltime, outside take an inordinate amount of shots at a mediocre %?.......
> 
> I'll give you a hint: nothing.


Who is saying any of these things?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

So bitter.


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