# 46th pick = *Erazem Lorbek



## StephenJackson

All I know is that he is a 6'10 240 lb PF from Slovania. What else do we know about him?


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## PacersguyUSA

Boooooo. Horrible pick. I'm assuming he'll be cut though.


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## Gonzo

PacersguyUSA said:


> Boooooo. Horrible pick. I'm assuming he'll be cut though.


Just what I was thinking.


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## Pacers Fan

He'll be cut anyway. From what I've read, he's a good shooter, but is slow footed and horrible on defense. Sounds like Primoz Brezec all over again.


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## Matiz

I can't help noticing that his father was scouting for Pacers for some time... funny

anyway I doubt he'll even get to NBA, he's that type of player that stays in europe and butchers NBAers once in a while at olympics or world championships...


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## Grangerx33

im very pleased witht his pick, most neone we drafted at that position wouldnt make the team neway this way he can stay in europe and if he has a break out year over there we'll have the rights to him, great choice imo


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## Damian Necronamous

PacersguyUSA said:


> Boooooo. Horrible pick. I'm assuming he'll be cut though.


What are you talking about? He's supposed to be one of the best players in Europe. Just because you don't know him, it doesn't mean he's a bad pick. The 46th pick wasn't going to make the team anyway, so it was a good choice to get someone who can improve overseas for another year or two until the Pacers have room for him.


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## DannyGranger33

He won't even leave Italy this year... and with the depth of our roster.. we wont need him.


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## jreywind

Exactly, he will sit in Europe for a while and mature like Antonio Davis did for the Pacers, then hopefully come over and contribute. From what I've read this kid is a quick learner and the Euroleague Rookie of the Year.


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## PacersguyUSA

Damian Necronamous said:


> What are you talking about? He's supposed to be one of the best players in Europe. Just because you don't know him, it doesn't mean he's a bad pick. The 46th pick wasn't going to make the team anyway, so it was a good choice to get someone who can improve overseas for another year or two until the Pacers have room for him.


It's sad that 6 PPG 4 RPG is the best in Europe....really, that's horribly pathetic. I mean damn, 6 & 4. 6 & 4? *6 & 4* I have a feeling I could step into a Euro game and hit two of the closer three pointers and get 6 points.

That's worse than Darko Millicic, and I think Darko is one of (if not) the worst players in the league.

And it's not like he's getting any better. He averaged about 6 & 4 three years ago in the NCAA, a much better league than in Europe. Not improving in 3 years, and already being 21 years old does not exatly make me optomistic about his "continual growth in Europe." What I'm most optimistic for is him getting cut. For that reason, I'm not really upset about the pick that much, but it bothers me in principle.

My belief is that if you're going to draft a Euro (foreigner), they better have dominated their leauge, like Sabonis or Ming.

6 & 4.....damn......................damn.


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## -mega-

PacersguyUSA said:


> And it's not like he's getting any better. He averaged about 6 & 4 three years ago in the *NCAA, a much better league than in Europe.* Not improving in 3 years, and already being 21 years old does not exatly make me optomistic about his "continual growth in Europe." What I'm most optimistic for is him getting cut. For that reason, I'm not really upset about the pick that much, but it bothers me in principle.


Hahahahahahaha...you must be kidding, right? NCAA a much better league than the Euroleague?!

That explains how much you really know about basketball....


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## PacersguyUSA

-mega- said:


> Hahahahahahaha...you must be kidding, right? NCAA a much better league than the Euroleague?!


Much better, and I have a friend from Israel via Argentina that followed the champions, Macabi Tel-Aviv that says the same thing.


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## -mega-

PacersguyUSA said:


> Much better, and I have a friend from Israel via Argentina that followed the champions, Macabi Tel-Aviv that says the same thing.


Sorry...he's a jew in Argenitna and somehow managed to follow Maccabi Tel-Aviv?! 

North Carolina would hardy get to the top 8 teams in Europe. Why do you think the USA started sending NBA players to international tournaments instead of "NCAA stars"? Maybe because the rest of the world became too strong for those kids? And now you're telling me that EuroLeague is still weaker than the NCAA!?

Remember Indianapolis 2002? Here's link - might ring some more bells (actually this one should be h-bomb loud) World Championship Indianapolis 2002 

70% of NBA players would hardly make the team in Europe...Take away from any NBA team the top 4 players and you have a mediocre European team.

As for Lorbek - he's named the European rookie of the year, 8 ppg, 5 rebounds in 20 minutes played. This was the first stage of the Euroleague.

In the second stage (top 16) his numbers (and the level of the game as well) grow big time - averaged 12,5 ppg while shootin 56% from the field and 62% from 3 point range, 5 rebounds in 23 minutes played.
Lorbek's stats 2004/2005 

Now...can you explain where did you get those 6&4 figures? 

Anyway - you Pacers fans are know for you basketball knowledge. You actually didn't want one Reggie Miller at the time he was drafted...And Primoz Brezec? He's soft, can't play...cut him...well, now you got Scott Pollard... What you deserved.


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## Pacers Fan

-mega- said:


> Anyway - you Pacers fans are know for you basketball knowledge. You actually didn't want one Reggie Miller at the time he was drafted


I doubt most of us have been fans since 1988...



> ...And Primoz Brezec? He's soft, can't play...cut him...well, now you got Scott Pollard... What you deserved.


All Brezec does is shoot. I'd still much rather have Pollard who can play defense, grab some rebounds, and add some toughness to the game.


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## PacersguyUSA

-mega- said:


> Sorry...he's a jew in Argenitna and somehow managed to follow Maccabi Tel-Aviv?!


No..he's a Jew from Argentina that moved to Ashqaelon, Israel, then moved to my city.



> North Carolina would hardy get to the top 8 teams in Europe. Why do you think the USA started sending NBA players to international tournaments instead of "NCAA stars? Maybe because the rest of the world became too strong for those kids? And now you're telling me that EuroLeague is still weaker than the NCAA!?


And the USA team lost to international teams this year on the pro level, what's your point? The NBA is still a much better league than any Euroleague.




> 70% of NBA players would hardly make the team in Europe...Take away from any NBA team the top 4 players and you have a mediocre European team.


Then explain to me why guys that aren't drafted go to Europe a lot of the time. League champion Macabi Tel-Aviv has Maceo Baston and Anthony Parker. Those are NBA super scrubs. Parker's highest NBA average scoring was about 3 points per game. In the Euroleague, he averaged 17.9 PPG was the Euroleague MVP. Get that? The Euroleague MVP has a career NBA average of 2.3 points per game.



> As for Lorbek - he's named the European rookie of the year, 8 ppg, 5 rebounds in 20 minutes played. This was the first stage of the Euroleague.
> 
> In the second stage (top 16) his numbers (and the level of the game as well) grow big time - averaged 12,5 ppg while shootin 56% from the field and 62% from 3 point range, 5 rebounds in 23 minutes played.
> Lorbek's stats 2004/2005
> 
> Now...can you explain where did you get those 6&4 figures?


http://www.nba.com/draft2005/profiles/ErazemLorbek.html



> Anyway - you Pacers fans are know for you basketball knowledge. You actually didn't want one Reggie Miller at the time he was drafted...And Primoz Brezec? He's soft, can't play...cut him...well, now you got Scott Pollard... What you deserved.


Wow, you really don't know what you're talking about. Brezec wasn't cut. If there was no lottery draft or if he wasn't drafted in said draft, he would still be on the team. But frankly, I'm happier with him off the team, and I like Scott Pollard better.










6 & 4? Damn.......


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## -mega-

Ah...PacerGayUSA - I know Brezec wasn't cut...it was you "know-everything" that wanted the Pacers to cut him...you thought he was the worst player in the NBA, like your smart asses now think Milicic is the worst player, but never actually saw him play a real game. And you know why? Because he got the best front line in front of him - the Wallaces, Mcdyess... you think Jermaine O'Neal would get much playing time in Detroit? Think again.

As for the Euroleague - why are you now comparing it to the NBA? I never said that the Euroleague was better than the NBA even tough it's clear that (as I said) if you take away the 4 best players ona ANY NBA team you'd get a sub-par Euroleague team with mediocre role-players. We're talking Euroleague vs. NCAA.

Guys who aren't drafted go to Europe because the want to play. As for why they didn't play in the NBA - I don't know why they didn't or why they can't. Maybe they didn't because at the time they were too young, they had some veteran players in front of them... It's obvious that they would play if put in a team that would need them.

As for your link - you could have at least read correctly before writing it down. 6&4 might be the average of two seasons, not this one when Lorbek was ROY.

Keep Scott Pollard! Great stats (I had to, cause you love them stats sooo much!)...


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## StephenJackson

-mega- said:


> you think Jermaine O'Neal would get much playing time in Detroit? Think again.


Seeing as he would start over Rasheed any day of the week, yes, he sure would get plenty of time.


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## -mega-

StephenJackson said:


> Seeing as he would start over Rasheed any day of the week, yes, he sure would get plenty of time.


Aha, so you'd put Rasheed Wallace on the bench and play Jermaine?! You really think that Jermaine would be a better fit for Detroit than Rasheed? Ok, you may be even right - the point I was trying to make is that if you're a rookie (like Brezec or Milicic) and you come to a team that's full of great big men you can't really expect to play much. And if Milicic doesn't play that doesn't neceserily mean he's the worst player in the league. Give the chance (like Brezec) he'd be a hell of a player. He's just on the wrong team.


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## kamego

Darko isn't the worse player even on the Pistons, which I know might shock a few Pacer fans  but Horace Jenkins was by far the worest last season.


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## PacersguyUSA

-mega- said:


> Ah...PacerGuyUSA - I know Brezec wasn't cut...it was you "know-everything" that wanted the Pacers to cut him...you thought he was the worst player in the NBA, like your smart asses now think Milicic is the worst player, but never actually saw him play a real game.


Damn straight I wanted Brezec cut. If he were still on the Pacers, I'd still want him cut. He's average at best (13 & 7.4 on one of the worst teams in the NBA), and I definately wouldn't want him taking away minutes from David Harrison.




> And you know why? Because he got the best front line in front of him - the Wallaces, Mcdyess... you think Jermaine O'Neal would get much playing time in Detroit? Think again,


Seeing as O'neal would be the best player on the Pistons, I assume he would. He's better offensively and defensively than Rasheed Wallace.




> As for the Euroleague - why are you now comparing it to the NBA? I never said that the Euroleague was better than the NBA even tough it's clear that (as I said) if you take away the 4 best players ona ANY NBA team you'd get a sub-par Euroleague team with mediocre role-players. We're talking Euroleague vs. NCAA.


Because I was rebuting your statement, "70% of NBA players would hardly make the team in Europe." Seeing as the NBA players that suck in America excel in Europe, I laugh at your statement. 





> Guys who aren't drafted go to Europe because the want to play. As for why they didn't play in the NBA - I don't know why they didn't or why they can't. Maybe they didn't because at the time they were too young, they had some veteran players in front of them... It's obvious that they would play if put in a team that would need them.


They go to Europe because they need to play in an easier league in order to succeed. They are not good enough for the NBA, so they take they're superior NCAA training and dominate Euros.



> As for your link - you could have at least read correctly before writing it down. 6&4 might be the average of two seasons, not this one when Lorbek was ROY.


All of his totals are around six points per game and four rebounds per game. It's also sad that 9.2 points and 4.9 rebounds per game is good enough to earn rookie of the year on an entire continent. The only thing sadder is his 6 & 4 average. 6 & 4? 6 & 4.....damn.....damn.



> Keep Scott Pollard! Great stats (I had to, cause you love them stats sooo much!)...


And this is where your grammar goes to hell so I can't interpret the meaning of your text. In light of that, I'll just shake my head in shame at Lorbek's 6 & 4 stats. Damn those are some bad stats.

Remember when Brezec against Pollard this season? He had 8 points and 1 rebound in 23 minutes. Scott Pollard's stats: 4 points and 4 rebounds in 15 minutes.


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## kamego

PacersguyUSA said:


> Seeing as O'neal would be the best player on the Pistons, I assume he would. He's better offensively and defensively than Rasheed Wallace.


JO might be better but it's hard to know with Rasheed. I think Rasheed has the ability to be a top 3 PF in the league, when he wants to be one but since he tries to fit into the team and not force anything, his numbers always are low lately. Each guy wouldn't be as good though if they switched teams because they are both near perfect fits with their own team.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Darko isn't the worse player even on the Pistons, which I know might shock a few Pacer fans but Horace Jenkins was by far the worest last season.


The only thing Darko is really better at than Jenkins is rebounding and blocking shots. They both played 6.9 minutes per game, and Jenkins averaged more points on a higher field goal percentage, had more assists, more steals, and a much higher free throw percentage. If I had to choose, I'd take Jenkins over Darko.


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## PacersguyUSA

kamego said:


> JO might be better but it's hard to know with Rasheed. I think Rasheed has the ability to be a top 3 PF in the league, when he wants to be one but since he tries to fit into the team and not force anything, his numbers always are low lately. Each guy wouldn't be as good though if they switched teams because they are both near perfect fits with their own team.


All that aside, you know O'neal would get a lot of minutes on the Pistons. He's already a top 3 PF in the leauge.


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## kamego

PacersguyUSA said:


> All that aside, you know O'neal would get a lot of minutes on the Pistons. He's already a top 3 PF in the leauge.


With Larry Brown and Dice on the bench, I would project his minutes to be the same as Rasheed. Thats just my educated guess being a Piston fan and seeing every game.


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## kamego

PacersguyUSA said:


> The only thing Darko is really better at than Jenkins is rebounding and blocking shots. They both played 6.9 minutes per game, and Jenkins averaged more points on a higher field goal percentage, had more assists, more steals, and a much higher free throw percentage. If I had to choose, I'd take Jenkins over Darko.


Jenkins is a 30 year old rookie point guard who was averaging one assist per turnover  I don't think that makes him any better then Darko lol


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## PacersguyUSA

kamego said:


> Jenkins is a 30 year old rookie point guard who was averaging one assist per turnover  I don't think that makes him any better then Darko lol


Darko is a 20 year old Euro pseudo-prospect who's seven feet tall but has a 32.9 FG5. I think that makes him worse than Jenkins.


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## kamego

PacersguyUSA said:


> Darko is a 20 year old Euro pseudo-prospect who's seven feet tall but has a 32.9 FG5. I think that makes him worse than Jenkins.


Jenkins is shooting 34 % fg's ? That percent doesn't make all the differance in the world. Jenkins is also turning the ball over just as much as he is assiting and is a 30 year old rookie. I am not trying to start a large scale arguement here but just about anyone who likes Darko or not, would agree he is atleast better then this guy. I don't understand why him being Euro has anything to do with this?


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## PacersguyUSA

kamego said:


> Jenkins is shooting 34 % fg's ? That percent doesn't make all the differance in the world.


Darko is 7 ft tall though. He's missing easier shots that Jenkins in all likelyhood.



> Jenkins is also turning the ball over just as much as he is assiting and is a 30 year old rookie. I am not trying to start a large scale arguement here but just about anyone who likes Darko or not, would agree he is atleast better then this guy. I don't understand why him being Euro has anything to do with this?


Because it's a big indication that he was severly overrated when he was drafted.


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## -mega-

Ahhhh....PacerguyUSA - you work for the Pacers? No? How come? You sould be working as a scout - you know everything just by looking at them stats! You're worth billions!

You know about Darko but haven't seen him play, you know about Brezec, you know about Lorbek but haven't seen him play...It's a real mistery you don't work for the Pacers...I guess we should just fire Larry

70% of NBA players would have serious problems in the Euroleague - for the Pacers taht would be - everybody except J.O'Neal, Ron Artest, probably S.Jackson and maybe Tinsley...the likes of Scott Pollard, Jeff Foster, and who else you got on your roster would be backup guys - with some flashes of brightnes and some good games here and there but mostly - just for backup.

You want me to go through every NBA roster to list the guys who wouldn't make much noise in Europe? Ok, I'll list those who would do good in Europe (that'd be easier)

Atlanta Hawks - Al Harrington (maybe), Predrag Drobnjak (just because he know the style of play)
Boston Celtics - Paul Pierce, Ricky Davis, Antoine Walker (maybe)
Charlotte Hornets - Emeka Okafor, Brevin Knight, Primoz Brezec (because he know the style of play in Europe)
Chicago Bulls - Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni (proved himself in Europe), Tyson Chandler (maybe)
Cleveland Cavs - LeBron James, Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden (maybe)
Dallas Mavs - Dirk Nowitzki, Michael Finley, Marquis Daniels, Jerry Stackhouse, Van Horn (maybe)
Denver Nuggets - Andre Miller, Kenyon Martin, Carmelo Anthony, Nene (maybe)
Detroit Pistons - Carlos Arroyo, both Wallaces, Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups, Prince (maybe)
Golden State - Baron Davis (maybe), Cabarkapa (maybe)
Houston Rockets - McGrady, Ming, Bob Sura (maybe)
LA Clippers - Marko jaric (played there), Elton Brand, Rebraca, Corey Maggette
LA Lakers - Kobe Bryant, Vlade Divac, Lamar Odom, 
memphis Grizzlies - Pau Gasol, Mike Miller, Battier
Miami Heat - Dwayne Wade, Shaq, Mourning (if healthy)
Milwaukee -Kukoc, Redd,Jiri Welsch (played there and played good),Bogut
Minnesota - Kevin Garrnett, Szczerbiak, Sprewell, Cassell
New Jersey- Kidd, Carter, Krstic, Planinic, Jefferson with a lot of problems
New orleans - Magloire (probably), Chris Paul, Nachbar
New York - Allan Houston (if healthy), Stephon Marbury, Jamal Crawford, Q-Richardson 
Orlando - Steve Francis, Dwight Howard, Grant Hill, Turkoglu
Philadelphia - Iverson, Korver, Webber, Marc Jackson
Phoenix - Stoudamire, Nash, Jim Jackson, Marion (not really sure with that ugly shot he has)
Portland - Randoplh, Abdur-Rahim, not sure about Telfair...too young (maybe in a few yeard)
Sacramento - Bibby, Stojakovic, Miller, Mobley
San Antonio - Ginobili (how come this guy was the MVP of the Euroleague and was close of becoming MVP of the finals?), Duncan, Udrih, Nesterovic, Horry, Parker, 
Toronto - Jalen Rose
Utah - Kirilenko, Giricek, Lopez,Okur, maybe Boozer
Wahington - Jamison, Arenas, Hughes,..

These are (more or less) stars in the NBA and would of course be big stars in Euroleague as well (they would probably be the best players of the Euroleague). The rest of the NBA players would have some good games of course but mostly would be just role players.

The problem (and the bigger difference between NBA and Eudoleague) with the NBA teams is that you guys have 3-4 big stars who know how to play ball, and then you have 5-6 guys who are pure role players. The teams that have the most guys who can play are the best teams in the league (San Antonio, Detroit, Dallas,...). The teams who have only one or two players are sad to watch (Golden State, Atlanta,...).

In Europe these "role players" wouldn't "survive" by just rebounding or just shooting threes. You have to be close to a complete player if you want to play there. Of course NBA players are stronger and quicker but tacticly weaker (not all of them, but those 70%). That's why they would not be even close to "stars" in Europe.

As for your draft picks - they proved you wrong - Brezec developed into a good player, Lorbek will be a good player (NBA standards). You said Brezec's numbers this season are "average"....well his numbers would make him the fourth player on the Pacers roster!

And sorry but the Bobcats weren't one of the worst teams in the league. With a bit of luck they'd be a playoff contender. The lost plenty of games by less then 3 points - which show that the only thing missing there is experience. A bad team is Golden State, Atlanta...teams like that. You can't say that an expansion team, built of young guys who never had a real chance to play, and with the result they had - that they are bad.

Ups sorry...you can say that, you know everything.


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## PacersguyUSA

-mega- said:


> Ahhhh....PacerguyUSA - you work for the Pacers? No? How come? You sould be working as a scout - you know everything just by looking at them stats! You're worth billions!
> 
> You know about Darko but haven't seen him play, you know about Brezec, you know about Lorbek but haven't seen him play...It's a real mistery you don't work for the Pacers...I guess we should just fire Larry


I've seen Darko and Brezec play. I remember distinctly Darko having a spiffy dunk blocked by the rim, and I remember Brezec throwing a "no-look" pass by passing first and then looking away. I thank Brezec for that though, because that was one of the funniest things I've seen in the NBA.



> 70% of NBA players would have serious problems in the Euroleague - for the Pacers taht would be - everybody except J.O'Neal, Ron Artest, probably S.Jackson and maybe Tinsley...the likes of Scott Pollard, Jeff Foster, and who else you got on your roster would be backup guys - with some flashes of brightnes and some good games here and there but mostly - just for backup.
> 
> You want me to go through every NBA roster to list the guys who wouldn't make much noise in Europe? Ok, I'll list those who would do good in Europe (that'd be easier)
> 
> Atlanta Hawks - Al Harrington (maybe), Predrag Drobnjak (just because he know the style of play)
> Boston Celtics - Paul Pierce, Ricky Davis, Antoine Walker (maybe)
> Charlotte Hornets - Emeka Okafor, Brevin Knight, Primoz Brezec (because he know the style of play in Europe)
> Chicago Bulls - Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni (proved himself in Europe), Tyson Chandler (maybe)
> Cleveland Cavs - LeBron James, Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden (maybe)
> Dallas Mavs - Dirk Nowitzki, Michael Finley, Marquis Daniels, Jerry Stackhouse, Van Horn (maybe)
> Denver Nuggets - Andre Miller, Kenyon Martin, Carmelo Anthony, Nene (maybe)
> Detroit Pistons - Carlos Arroyo, both Wallaces, Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups, Prince (maybe)
> Golden State - Baron Davis (maybe), Cabarkapa (maybe)
> Houston Rockets - McGrady, Ming, Bob Sura (maybe)
> LA Clippers - Marko jaric (played there), Elton Brand, Rebraca, Corey Maggette
> LA Lakers - Kobe Bryant, Vlade Divac, Lamar Odom,
> memphis Grizzlies - Pau Gasol, Mike Miller, Battier
> Miami Heat - Dwayne Wade, Shaq, Mourning (if healthy)
> Milwaukee -Kukoc, Redd,Jiri Welsch (played there and played good),Bogut
> Minnesota - Kevin Garrnett, Szczerbiak, Sprewell, Cassell
> New Jersey- Kidd, Carter, Krstic, Planinic, Jefferson with a lot of problems
> New orleans - Magloire (probably), Chris Paul, Nachbar
> New York - Allan Houston (if healthy), Stephon Marbury, Jamal Crawford, Q-Richardson
> Orlando - Steve Francis, Dwight Howard, Grant Hill, Turkoglu
> Philadelphia - Iverson, Korver, Webber, Marc Jackson
> Phoenix - Stoudamire, Nash, Jim Jackson, Marion (not really sure with that ugly shot he has)
> Portland - Randoplh, Abdur-Rahim, not sure about Telfair...too young (maybe in a few yeard)
> Sacramento - Bibby, Stojakovic, Miller, Mobley
> San Antonio - Ginobili (how come this guy was the MVP of the Euroleague and was close of becoming MVP of the finals?), Duncan, Udrih, Nesterovic, Horry, Parker,
> Toronto - Jalen Rose
> Utah - Kirilenko, Giricek, Lopez,Okur, maybe Boozer
> Wahington - Jamison, Arenas, Hughes,..
> 
> These are (more or less) stars in the NBA and would of course be big stars in Euroleague as well (they would probably be the best players of the Euroleague). The rest of the NBA players would have some good games of course but mostly would be just role players.
> 
> The problem (and the bigger difference between NBA and Eudoleague) with the NBA teams is that you guys have 3-4 big stars who know how to play ball, and then you have 5-6 guys who are pure role players. The teams that have the most guys who can play are the best teams in the league (San Antonio, Detroit, Dallas,...). The teams who have only one or two players are sad to watch (Golden State, Atlanta,...).
> 
> In Europe these "role players" wouldn't "survive" by just rebounding or just shooting threes. You have to be close to a complete player if you want to play there. Of course NBA players are stronger and quicker but tacticly weaker (not all of them, but those 70%). That's why they would not be even close to "stars" in Europe.


Explain why then U.S scrubs such as Maceo Baston and Anthony Parker are some of the best in Europe. If these European players are so great playing in the European system with they're "complete game" that's great for them. They should stay there. Most of them obviously can't play in a league as good as the NBA.




> As for your draft picks - they proved you wrong - Brezec developed into a good player, Lorbek will be a good player (NBA standards). You said Brezec's numbers this season are "average"....well his numbers would make him the fourth player on the Pacers roster!


List of Euros drafted in the last 10 years:

Eurelijus Zukauskas
Dragan Tarlac
Predrag Stojakovic
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Efthimis Rentzias
Martin Muursepp
Priest Lauderdale
Marko Milic
Predrag Drobnjak
Roberto Cueñas
Dirk Nowitzki
Radoslav Nesterovic
Mirsad Turckan
Vladimir Stepania
Bruno Sundov
Gordan Giricek
Hidayet Türkoglu
Dalibor Bagaric Benston
Iakovos Tsakalides
Marco Jaric 
Josip Sesar 
Igor Rakocevic
Pau Gasol
Vladimir Radmanovic
Raul Lopez
Tony Parker
Mehmet Okur
Antonis Fotsis
Robertas Javtokas Lietuvo
Nickoloz Tskitishvili 
Bostjan Nachba
Jiri Welsch
Nenad Krstic
Milos Vujanic
Juan Carlos Navarro
Mario Kasun
Peter Fehse
Mladen Sekularac
Darko Milicic
Mickaël Pietrus
Zarko Cabarkapa
Aleksandar Pavlovic
Boris Diaw
Zoran Planinic
Maciej Lampe
Szymon Szewczyk
Slavko Vranes
Zaur Pachulia
Sani Becirovic
Paccelis Morlende
Remon Van de Hare
Nedzad Sinanovic
Andreas Glyniadakis
Andris Biedrins
Pavel Podkolzine
Victor Khryapa
Sergei Monia
Sasha Vujacic
Beno Udrih
Albert Miralles
Viktor Sanikidze
Sergey Lishchuk
Vassilis Spanoulis
Christian Drejer
Sergei Karaulov
Fran Vazquez
Yaroslav Korolev
Johan Petro
Ian Mahinmi
Ersan Ilyasova
Roko Ikic
Mile Illic
M. Andriuskevicius
Erazem Lorbek
Mickael Gelebale
Axel Hervelle
Marcin Gortat
Uros Slokar
Cenk Akyol

Now, subtract the ones that were already legit Euro stars, because I'm all for drafting them:

Eurelijus Zukauskas
Dragan Tarlac
Efthimis Rentzias
Martin Muursepp
Priest Lauderdale
Marko Milic
Predrag Drobnjak
Roberto Cueñas
Radoslav Nesterovic
Mirsad Turckan
Vladimir Stepania
Bruno Sundov
Gordan Giricek
Hidayet Türkoglu
Dalibor Bagaric Benston
Iakovos Tsakalides
Marco Jaric 
Josip Sesar 
Igor Rakocevic
Vladimir Radmanovic
Tony Parker
Mehmet Okur
Antonis Fotsis
Robertas Javtokas Lietuvo
Nickoloz Tskitishvili 
Bostjan Nachba
Jiri Welsch
Nenad Krstic
Milos Vujanic
Juan Carlos Navarro
Mario Kasun
Peter Fehse
Mladen Sekularac
Darko Milicic
Mickaël Pietrus
Zarko Cabarkapa
Aleksandar Pavlovic
Boris Diaw
Zoran Planinic
Maciej Lampe
Szymon Szewczyk
Slavko Vranes
Zaur Pachulia
Sani Becirovic
Paccelis Morlende
Remon Van de Hare
Nedzad Sinanovic
Andreas Glyniadakis
Andris Biedrins
Pavel Podkolzine
Victor Khryapa
Sergei Monia
Sasha Vujacic
Beno Udrih
Albert Miralles
Viktor Sanikidze
Sergey Lishchuk
Vassilis Spanoulis
Christian Drejer
Sergei Karaulov
Fran Vazquez
Yaroslav Korolev
Johan Petro
Ian Mahinmi
Ersan Ilyasova
Roko Ikic
Mile Illic
M. Andriuskevicius
Erazem Lorbek
Mickael Gelebale
Axel Hervelle
Marcin Gortat
Uros Slokar
Cenk Akyol

And your left with a sorry bunch of players. Very few of those players I would say are deserving of their draft pick. Now, I've heard the counter argument "there's a lot of American drafted that don't turn out good too." To that I point out that American players, when drafted from high school, are stars on the high school level and college players generally as well. What I don't understand, is why NBA GMs keep drafting players such as Darko Milicic that aren't that great in Europe, and expect them to be great in America, when they obviously won't. I mean, what were those GMs thinking when drafing players like Mickael Gelabal? 

You can look at an American pick that might be questionable, such as Bracey Wright, and at least justify it with Wright's 18 PPG and national title appearance. With Gelabal, you have a whole lot less. 




> And sorry but the Bobcats weren't one of the worst teams in the league. With a bit of luck they'd be a playoff contender. The lost plenty of games by less then 3 points - which show that the only thing missing there is experience. A bad team is Golden State, Atlanta...teams like that. You can't say that an expansion team, built of young guys who never had a real chance to play, and with the result they had - that they are bad.


I don't care why they are bad, the bottom line is that they 18 wins and 64 losses, and that is not good. I don't care that they lost "plenty of games by less than 3 points." If they were good, they would have won those games.




> Ups sorry...you can say that, you know everything.


You're pretty bad at Ad Hominem attacks. Step you patronizing game up.


----------



## mauzer

PacersguyUSA said:


> It's sad that 6 PPG 4 RPG is the best in Europe....really, that's horribly pathetic. I mean damn, 6 & 4. 6 & 4? *6 & 4* I have a feeling I could step into a Euro game and hit two of the closer three pointers and get 6 points.
> 
> That's worse than Darko Millicic, and I think Darko is one of (if not) the worst players in the league.
> 
> And it's not like he's getting any better. He averaged about 6 & 4 three years ago in the NCAA, a much better league than in Europe. Not improving in 3 years, and already being 21 years old does not exatly make me optomistic about his "continual growth in Europe." What I'm most optimistic for is him getting cut. For that reason, I'm not really upset about the pick that much, but it bothers me in principle.
> 
> My belief is that if you're going to draft a Euro (foreigner), they better have dominated their leauge, like Sabonis or Ming.
> 
> 6 & 4.....damn......................damn.


NCAA better than Euroleague????? Are you on crack or heroin ???? :krazy:


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## mauzer

PacersguyUSA said:


> I've seen Darko and Brezec play. I remember distinctly Darko having a spiffy dunk blocked by the rim, and I remember Brezec throwing a "no-look" pass by passing first and then looking away. I thank Brezec for that though, because that was one of the funniest things I've seen in the NBA.
> 
> 
> 
> Explain why then U.S scrubs such as Maceo Baston and Anthony Parker are some of the best in Europe. If these European players are so great playing in the European system with they're "complete game" that's great for them. They should stay there. Most of them obviously can't play in a league as good as the NBA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List of Euros drafted in the last 10 years:
> 
> Eurelijus Zukauskas
> Dragan Tarlac
> Predrag Stojakovic
> Zydrunas Ilgauskas
> Efthimis Rentzias
> Martin Muursepp
> Priest Lauderdale
> Marko Milic
> Predrag Drobnjak
> Roberto Cueñas
> Dirk Nowitzki
> Radoslav Nesterovic
> Mirsad Turckan
> Vladimir Stepania
> Bruno Sundov
> Gordan Giricek
> Hidayet Türkoglu
> Dalibor Bagaric Benston
> Iakovos Tsakalides
> Marco Jaric
> Josip Sesar
> Igor Rakocevic
> Pau Gasol
> Vladimir Radmanovic
> Raul Lopez
> Tony Parker
> Mehmet Okur
> Antonis Fotsis
> Robertas Javtokas Lietuvo
> Nickoloz Tskitishvili
> Bostjan Nachba
> Jiri Welsch
> Nenad Krstic
> Milos Vujanic
> Juan Carlos Navarro
> Mario Kasun
> Peter Fehse
> Mladen Sekularac
> Darko Milicic
> Mickaël Pietrus
> Zarko Cabarkapa
> Aleksandar Pavlovic
> Boris Diaw
> Zoran Planinic
> Maciej Lampe
> Szymon Szewczyk
> Slavko Vranes
> Zaur Pachulia
> Sani Becirovic
> Paccelis Morlende
> Remon Van de Hare
> Nedzad Sinanovic
> Andreas Glyniadakis
> Andris Biedrins
> Pavel Podkolzine
> Victor Khryapa
> Sergei Monia
> Sasha Vujacic
> Beno Udrih
> Albert Miralles
> Viktor Sanikidze
> Sergey Lishchuk
> Vassilis Spanoulis
> Christian Drejer
> Sergei Karaulov
> Fran Vazquez
> Yaroslav Korolev
> Johan Petro
> Ian Mahinmi
> Ersan Ilyasova
> Roko Ikic
> Mile Illic
> M. Andriuskevicius
> Erazem Lorbek
> Mickael Gelebale
> Axel Hervelle
> Marcin Gortat
> Uros Slokar
> Cenk Akyol
> 
> Now, subtract the ones that were already legit Euro stars, because I'm all for drafting them:
> 
> Eurelijus Zukauskas
> Dragan Tarlac
> Efthimis Rentzias
> Martin Muursepp
> Priest Lauderdale
> Marko Milic
> Predrag Drobnjak
> Roberto Cueñas
> Radoslav Nesterovic
> Mirsad Turckan
> Vladimir Stepania
> Bruno Sundov
> Gordan Giricek
> Hidayet Türkoglu
> Dalibor Bagaric Benston
> Iakovos Tsakalides
> Marco Jaric
> Josip Sesar
> Igor Rakocevic
> Vladimir Radmanovic
> Tony Parker
> Mehmet Okur
> Antonis Fotsis
> Robertas Javtokas Lietuvo
> Nickoloz Tskitishvili
> Bostjan Nachba
> Jiri Welsch
> Nenad Krstic
> Milos Vujanic
> Juan Carlos Navarro
> Mario Kasun
> Peter Fehse
> Mladen Sekularac
> Darko Milicic
> Mickaël Pietrus
> Zarko Cabarkapa
> Aleksandar Pavlovic
> Boris Diaw
> Zoran Planinic
> Maciej Lampe
> Szymon Szewczyk
> Slavko Vranes
> Zaur Pachulia
> Sani Becirovic
> Paccelis Morlende
> Remon Van de Hare
> Nedzad Sinanovic
> Andreas Glyniadakis
> Andris Biedrins
> Pavel Podkolzine
> Victor Khryapa
> Sergei Monia
> Sasha Vujacic
> Beno Udrih
> Albert Miralles
> Viktor Sanikidze
> Sergey Lishchuk
> Vassilis Spanoulis
> Christian Drejer
> Sergei Karaulov
> Fran Vazquez
> Yaroslav Korolev
> Johan Petro
> Ian Mahinmi
> Ersan Ilyasova
> Roko Ikic
> Mile Illic
> M. Andriuskevicius
> Erazem Lorbek
> Mickael Gelebale
> Axel Hervelle
> Marcin Gortat
> Uros Slokar
> Cenk Akyol
> 
> And your left with a sorry bunch of players. Very few of those players I would say are deserving of their draft pick. Now, I've heard the counter argument "there's a lot of American drafted that don't turn out good too." To that I point out that American players, when drafted from high school, are stars on the high school level and college players generally as well. What I don't understand, is why NBA GMs keep drafting players such as Darko Milicic that aren't that great in Europe, and expect them to be great in America, when they obviously won't. I mean, what were those GMs thinking when drafing players like Mickael Gelabal?
> 
> You can look at an American pick that might be questionable, such as Bracey Wright, and at least justify it with Wright's 18 PPG and national title appearance. With Gelabal, you have a whole lot less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care why they are bad, the bottom line is that they 18 wins and 64 losses, and that is not good. I don't care that they lost "plenty of games by less than 3 points." If they were good, they would have won those games.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're pretty bad at Ad Hominem attacks. Step you patronizing game up.


Following your idiotic stats-2004 OG USA Dream Team had to destroy all team sby 100-150 points margin. But what happened to your stars, ah??????


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## PacersguyUSA

mauzer said:


> Following your idiotic stats-2004 OG USA Dream Team had to destroy all team sby 100-150 points margin. But what happened to your stars, ah??????


You quote a post with no stats in it, then procede to discuss stats. How does that work?


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## -mega-

Pacerguy - you're trying to say that these guys aren't (or weren't) doing good in the NBA? (from your list of players of players who weren't legit Euro stars when drafted)

Predrag Drobnjak
Vladimir Stepania
Gordan Giricek
Hidayet Türkoglu
Marco Jaric 
Vladimir Radmanovic
Tony Parker
Mehmet Okur
Jiri Welsch
Nenad Krstic
Zarko Cabarkapa
Boris Diaw
Beno Udrih

So in your opinion these guys aren't that good? They are "a sorry bunch of players"?

Want stats to prove you wrong?

As for your knowledge of basketball - in your first list you wrote about everybody drafted from Europe in the last 10 years. Then you subtracted those who were "already legitimate euro stars at the moment of the draft"...well, how to say...Predrag Stojakovic wasn't really the biggest of the stars in Europe when drafted (wasn't bad, but really wasn't THAT good)...and Dirk Nowitzki - did you find any euroleague stats from Nowitzki? No? Need help on that? Well Nowitzki never played in any of the Euroleague teams. 

So how can you say these guys were "already legitimate stars" when they weren't? How can we trust what you're saying (listing stats and stuff) when you don't know these simple things? And how can you then say Euroleague is weaker than the NCAA league?

Here's another thing - 1998 NBA draft - selected first - Michael Olowokandi. Then there was the lockout and Olowokandi went to Italy to play for Kinder Bologna. He was there playing with one Rasho Nesterovic. Olowokandi was presented like this huge star, 1st NBA draft pick...well he was just a backup for Nesterovic and didn't really shine (wasn't bad, but from the first NBA pick you'd expect more) in those 3 games he played in the "weak" Euroleague.

That's why I say that the NCAA isn't close to the Euroleague.


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## Pacers Fan

-mega- said:


> Pacerguy - you're trying to say that these guys aren't (or weren't) doing good in the NBA? (from your list of players of players who weren't legit Euro stars when drafted)
> 
> Predrag Drobnjak
> Vladimir Stepania
> Gordan Giricek
> Hidayet Türkoglu
> Marco Jaric
> Vladimir Radmanovic
> Tony Parker
> Mehmet Okur
> Jiri Welsch
> Nenad Krstic
> Zarko Cabarkapa
> Boris Diaw
> Beno Udrih
> 
> So in your opinion these guys aren't that good? They are "a sorry bunch of players"?


None of them are horrible, but witht he exception of Tony Parker, none are very good.



> Predrag Stojakovic wasn't really the biggest of the stars in Europe when drafted (wasn't bad, but really wasn't THAT good)


He's talking about people like Darko Milicic who average 1/1.



> Here's another thing - 1998 NBA draft - selected first - Michael Olowokandi. Then there was the lockout and Olowokandi went to Italy to play for Kinder Bologna. He was there playing with one Rasho Nesterovic. Olowokandi was presented like this huge star, 1st NBA draft pick...well he was just a backup for Nesterovic and didn't really shine (wasn't bad, but from the first NBA pick you'd expect more) in those 3 games he played in the "weak" Euroleague.


Olowakandi is a horrible NBA player. I'd assume he was also pretty bad in Europe.


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## -mega-

PacerFan - how the hell do you know what/who was he talking about?

He said - "subtract the players who were legitimate stars in Europe" and I pointed out two who really weren't. And Nowitzki REALLY wasn't a big deal in Europe when he was drafted.

Olowokandi was the first draft pick, came from the NCAA - I wrote about him just to prove that the NCAA isn't close to the Euroleague. If he's a horrible player or not I don't care. 

What is horrible anyway? Olowokandi is horrible but Cabarkapa isn't? Want stats? 

Anyway - the post was for pacerguyUSA...I'd love to hear from him.

BTW pacerguyUSA - Priest Lauderdale (you listed him as an European player drafted in the NBA) was born in Chicago. Since there is no Chicago anywhere in Europe I'd think he's american. But he does have a bulgarian passport (since he playes there). Maybe that confused you...but he got his bulgarian passport only in 2002 (since then he plays in Bulgaria)...so, when he was drafted he was a citizen of the USA...


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## Pacers Fan

-mega- said:


> PacerFan - how the hell do you know what/who was he talking about?
> 
> He said - "subtract the players who were legitimate stars in Europe" and I pointed out two who really weren't. And Nowitzki REALLY wasn't a big deal in Europe when he was drafted.


I'm just assuming, but I think he's basing his argument with players like Darko Milicic, who are drafted early because they have potential and sit on their asses in Europe, whereas players from college or high school have established themselves as very good players at that level before they come in.



> Olowokandi was the first draft pick, came from the NCAA - I wrote about him just to prove that the NCAA isn't close to the Euroleague. If he's a horrible player or not I don't care.


Olowakandi was picked because of his potential. His stats seem to be good for college, but his laziness and lack of talent didn't translate to the NBA. 



> What is horrible anyway? Olowokandi is horrible but Cabarkapa isn't? Want stats?


Olowakandi isn't horrible, but him being a #1 pick, having a bad contract, and being lazy makes him unworthy of his status. I haven't seen enough of Cabarkapa to really judge him, but I'd say that he isn't Darko V2.


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## -mega-

PacerFan - is it really hard to understand that Darko Milicic has in front of him maybe the best centers/power forwards in the league?

You really think he'd play 4 minutes/game if he'd be playing for Atlanta? Give me a break - Milicic didn't get any proper chance to prove himself - and you are judging him on what?! Stats again?!

Same **** with Brezec - he had O'Neal in front of him and Brad Miller - and he was a rookie. Now, how could he get his minutes? By injuring one of those two guys? And please don't start with "he-should-have-tried-harder-and/or-practiced-more crap" cause you know its bull****.

Olowokandi had good stats for a NCAA athlete, but when he came to Europe he was somewhere average - which proves that even the brightest NCAA stars should earn their money in Europe and that the Euroleague is stronger than the NCAA where kids play! That's why the USAbasketball stoped sending NCAA players to international tournaments - cause they are kids of 22years max.

As for Anthony Parker and Maceo Baston (the two that PacerGuyUSA stressed):

Maceo Baston - he played one year in Toronto where he had the likes of Hakeem Olajuwon, Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams, Eric Montross in front of him. His stats - 2,5 ppg, 1,4 rpg in 7 minutes. Could have he done better in those 7 minutes? Hard to belive. Could have he played more? Yes, if someone would get injured.

Anthony Parker - he played in Philly when there were Allen Iverson, Jerry Stackhouse and Jim Jackson as the first five options (Iverson takes the top three offensive options in Philly). Then he went to Orlando - this may have been his chance to prove he belonged in the NBA but still he didn't get A PROPER CHANCE (read - like Brezec didn't get his in Indiana, like Milicic isn't getting his in Detroit).

That's the main reason why these two guys "didn't make it" in the NBA. And that's the main reason why these same two guys are doing great in Europe. Becuse they are put in an enviornment where they feel needed and where they can express themselves.


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## PacersguyUSA

Predrag Drobnjak
*Vladimir Stepania*
Gordan Giricek
Hidayet Türkoglu
Marco Jaric 
Vladimir Radmanovic
Tony Parker
*Mehmet Okur*
*Jiri Welsch*
Nenad Krstic
*Zarko Cabarkapa*
*Boris Diaw*
Beno Udrih

*Bold* = not worth their draft pick



> So in your opinion these guys aren't that good? They are "a sorry bunch of players"?
> 
> Want stats to prove you wrong?


Take note where I said, "very few of those players I would say are deserving of their draft pick."



> As for your knowledge of basketball - in your first list you wrote about everybody drafted from Europe in the last 10 years. Then you subtracted those who were "already legitimate euro stars at the moment of the draft"...well, how to say...Predrag Stojakovic wasn't really the biggest of the stars in Europe when drafted (wasn't bad, but really wasn't THAT good)


He scored 17 points on 54% shooting the year he was drafted. That's good enough to validate being drafted. It's not Lorbek's 6 & 4 type numbers. Then he put up over 20 in the three years before being brought over.



> ..and Dirk Nowitzki - did you find any euroleague stats from Nowitzki? No? Need help on that? Well Nowitzki never played in any of the Euroleague teams.


So.......? I don't care what league any of these players play in in Europe, the fact is, Dirk averaged 28.2 points per game for Germany the season before he was drafted, and that was on 56.1% shooting.



> So how can you say these guys were "already legitimate stars" when they weren't?


Because they were.



> How can we trust what you're saying (listing stats and stuff) when you don't know these simple things?


Because I do.



> And how can you then say Euroleague is weaker than the NCAA league?


Because it is.



> Here's another thing - 1998 NBA draft - selected first - Michael Olowokandi. Then there was the lockout and Olowokandi went to Italy to play for Kinder Bologna. He was there playing with one Rasho Nesterovic. Olowokandi was presented like this huge star, 1st NBA draft pick...well he was just a backup for Nesterovic and didn't really shine (wasn't bad, but from the first NBA pick you'd expect more) in those 3 games he played in the "weak" Euroleague.


Seems a little rediculous to judge someone off of three games, but if he kept up the pace he was going at (which you say was only okay), he would have scored the most field goals on the team if he played in as many games as Nesterovic.


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## PacersguyUSA

-mega- said:


> He said - "subtract the players who were legitimate stars in Europe" and I pointed out two who really weren't. And Nowitzki REALLY wasn't a big deal in Europe when he was drafted.


I'm not talking "star" as in fan recognition, I'm talking star in terms of production, and Nowitzki averaged about 22 PPG for Germany the season before being drafted. That's hardly the numbers of a Milicic or Lorbek.



> Olowokandi was the first draft pick, came from the NCAA - I wrote about him just to prove that the NCAA isn't close to the Euroleague. If he's a horrible player or not I don't care.


He was on pace to lead his team in field goals with less than expected play, as you say. If anything, that shows the weakness of the Euroleague.




> BTW pacerguyUSA - Priest Lauderdale (you listed him as an European player drafted in the NBA) was born in Chicago. Since there is no Chicago anywhere in Europe I'd think he's american. But he does have a bulgarian passport (since he playes there). Maybe that confused you...but he got his bulgarian passport only in 2002 (since then he plays in Bulgaria)...so, when he was drafted he was a citizen of the USA...


He was drafted based on his play for Peristeri Nikas Greece, and that's what his whole debate is about: drafting crappy players based on their game in Europe.


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## PacersguyUSA

-mega- said:


> PacerFan - is it really hard to understand that Darko Milicic has in front of him maybe the best centers/power forwards in the league?


Nobody will tell you Detroit's Center's, Ben Wallace or Elden Campbell are better than Shaq. Also, nobody will tell you that Rasheed Wallace or Antonio McDysse are better than Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, or Jermaine O'neal. So no, Milicic doesn't play behind "maybe the best centers/power forwards in the leauge," he *definately* doesn't. It doesn't help him that he's one of the worst players in the NBA.



> You really think he'd play 4 minutes/game if he'd be playing for Atlanta? Give me a break - Milicic didn't get any proper chance to prove himself - and you are judging him on what?! Stats again?!


He wasn't even that great in Europe, where he got plenty of playing time.



> Same **** with Brezec - he had O'Neal in front of him and Brad Miller - and he was a rookie. Now, how could he get his minutes? By injuring one of those two guys? And please don't start with "he-should-have-tried-harder-and/or-practiced-more crap" cause you know its bull****.


He was still behind them three years later, and he still would be if he came back to the Pacers.



> Olowokandi had good stats for a NCAA athlete,


I wouldn't say his stats were that good, 13 PPG.



> but when he came to Europe he was somewhere average


He was somewhat average in three games, and he was still on pace to lead his European team in field goals.



> which proves that even the brightest NCAA stars should earn their money in Europe and that the Euroleague is stronger than the NCAA where kids play! That's why the USAbasketball stoped sending NCAA players to international tournaments - cause they are kids of 22years max.


Yes, three games by one persone certainly leaves us with this deduction.  



> As for Anthony Parker and Maceo Baston (the two that PacerGuyUSA stressed):
> 
> Maceo Baston - he played one year in Toronto where he had the likes of Hakeem Olajuwon, Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams, Eric Montross in front of him. His stats - 2,5 ppg, 1,4 rpg in 7 minutes.


Which was it, 2 points or 5 points? 1 rebound or 4? Unless your making typos and that's supposed to be a decimal point. I don't know, and I can't rebute you if I don't know which you're talking about?



> Could have he done better in those 7 minutes? Hard to belive. Could have he played more? Yes, if someone would get injured.


Jerome Williams and Eric Montross are scrubs. 



> Becuse they are put in an enviornment where they feel needed and where they can express themselves.


A.K.A. they need a worse league to play in. Certainly being behind the likes of Jerome James, Eric Montross, Jim Jackson proves this.


----------



## Pacers Fan

> You really think he'd play 4 minutes/game if he'd be playing for Atlanta? Give me a break - Milicic didn't get any proper chance to prove himself - and you are judging him on what?! Stats again?!


No, I don't judge players on stats and don't often use it for arguments. Judging players by how they play is more accurate. So far I've seen Darko hit the side of the backboard with a jump shot, get rejected, get rejected by the rim, break his hand in the finals, and miss more jump shots. The only good thing I saw from him was a turnaround lay-up. Darko is horrible. He sucks in the minutes he plays, which is why he doesnt get any more.



> Same **** with Brezec - he had O'Neal in front of him and Brad Miller - and he was a rookie. Now, how could he get his minutes? By injuring one of those two guys? And please don't start with "he-should-have-tried-harder-and/or-practiced-more crap" cause you know its bull****.


Brezec was also horrible whenever he got playing time. Just because he doesn't play, doesn't mean he has potential. He just came in and hit a jumpshot, played terrible defense, and couldn't do anything else. Bruno Sundov was a better Pacer than Brezec.



> Maceo Baston - he played one year in Toronto where he had the likes of Hakeem Olajuwon, Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams, Eric Montross in front of him.


Jerome Williams was only good at hustling and rebounding, Olajuwon was terrible that year, Antonio Davis was past his prime, and Eric Montross was horrible. That could've been one of the league's worst PF/C combination in history.


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## Ron_Artest9131

Yeah right. If the Euroleague its that good why are watching the NBA instead of the Euroleague. The NBA is the best basketball franchise in the world and will stay that way for a long time.


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## Pacers Fan

Ron_Artest9131 said:


> Yeah right. If the Euroleague its that good why are watching the NBA instead of the Euroleague.


Because we live in the USA, where 29 of the NBA teams are located. You can still get a few Euroleague games on NBA TV.


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## clownskull

Brezec was also horrible whenever he got playing time. Just because he doesn't play, doesn't mean he has potential. He just came in and hit a jumpshot, played terrible defense, and couldn't do anything else. Bruno Sundov was a better Pacer than Brezec.



sorry, you are just flat out wrong on that. you may say primoz was horrible but for some reason the bobcats felt differently and passed on guys like bruno. but the knicks took him and bruno did what for them? bruno sundov is by far the worse of the two. sometimes guys need a new location to play for a team that needs them. primoz did that and had a solid season which was the first in his career where he actualy saw meaningful min. bruno will never do anything remotely close to that ever. primoz isn't a star or anything but he really isn't as bad as you make him out to be.


----------



## Pacers Fan

clownskull said:


> sorry, you are just flat out wrong on that. you may say primoz was horrible but for some reason the bobcats felt differently and passed on guys like bruno.


Because Brezec had potential.



> but the knicks took him and bruno did what for them? bruno sundov is by far the worse of the two.


Right now, yes, Sundov is the worse of the two, but back on the Pacers, Sundov was much better.



> primoz did that and had a solid season which was the first in his career where he actualy saw meaningful min.


If he actually had talent in Indiana then he would've earned some minutes. In the few minutes he did play, he showed nothing worthy of giving much playing time. Besides, he played on the Bobcats. I'm not trying to take anything away from the Bobcats as I do like them, but they are an expansion franchise, and just because Brezec played well with them doesn't mean he's really improved much. Darko Milicic could have a decent season in Charlotte, come back to Detroit, and stink up the floor.


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## MillerTime

PacersguyUSA said:


> It's sad that 6 PPG 4 RPG is the best in Europe....really, that's horribly pathetic. I mean damn, 6 & 4. 6 & 4? *6 & 4* I have a feeling I could step into a Euro game and hit two of the closer three pointers and get 6 points.
> 
> That's worse than Darko Millicic, and I think Darko is one of (if not) the worst players in the league.
> 
> And it's not like he's getting any better. He averaged about 6 & 4 three years ago in the NCAA, a much better league than in Europe. Not improving in 3 years, and already being 21 years old does not exatly make me optomistic about his "continual growth in Europe." What I'm most optimistic for is him getting cut. For that reason, I'm not really upset about the pick that much, but it bothers me in principle.
> 
> My belief is that if you're going to draft a Euro (foreigner), they better have dominated their leauge, like Sabonis or Ming.
> 
> 6 & 4.....damn......................damn.


The thing is, he's a little boy, 17 year old or whatever, playing in a league full of men. 6 and 4 is not too bad considering he's just a boy, undersized, playing against professionals and grown men.


----------

