# Tracy McGrady



## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

T-Mac will win MVP next year, book it.


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## Theoretic (Aug 19, 2004)

If by T-Mac you mean Steve Nash, then yes, I agree with you.


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## TwiBlueG35 (Jan 24, 2006)

I wish.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Doubt it, but whatever keeps you going, bud...

Hopefully he will be at least somewhat healthy, next year.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Tracy McGrady was getting carted off in a stretcher the 01-02 season too, everyone said he was DONE....came back and averaged 32.1 6.5 and 5.5 and made the All-NBA 1st Team.

T-Mac will comeback with a vengence next season on ALL of those who thought he was done.....

T-MAC MVP Campaign '07 GET WITH IT OR LIVE WITHOUT IT!!!!


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Uhh ok, lol. No one is saying T-Mac is done, but he most likely won't be MVP. First let him just get his swagger back, before you start calling him MVP of 2007. If this gets you excited, keep it going...but I doubt it will happen. I say it will be either Bron/Dirk/or Kobe. I doubt they will give it to Nash again. I don't see T-Mac being "T-Mac" under Jeff Van Gumby.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

T-Mac will be T-Mac even under Isiah Thomas, somehow....


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

He cretainly hasn't been T-Mac since he left Orlando. He made an appearance in the first round of LAST year's playoffs...but Dirk the Diggler bounced him out, so it really didn't do much.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Dirk didn't bounce anything out in that series except his FGA's.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

T-Mac's Series vs. Dallas in '05 > Kobe's Series vs. Phoenix in '06

EASILY.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> He cretainly hasn't been T-Mac since he left Orlando. He made an appearance in the first round of LAST year's playoffs...but Dirk the Diggler bounced him out, so it really didn't do much.


Lol @ Dirk bounced him out. Dirk was McGrady's pet in that series.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Who won though?


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Prolific Scorer said:


> T-Mac's Series vs. Dallas in '05 > Kobe's Series vs. Phoenix in '06
> 
> EASILY.


What does Kobe have to do with any of this? lol. I certainly didn't bring him up. Threatned, much?


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Dirk didn't bounce anything out in that series except his FGA's.


 :rofl:

as far as this thread topic....lets just hope for a healthy bounce back season. I expect big things but MVP is a little over the top considering Houston's roster isn't set and no one really knows how JVGs gonna work the "new" Yao with McGrady. Should be fun though


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

When T-Mac wins A playoff series... then we'll talk.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> Who won though?


remember that time the lakers were bounced by darko milicic?


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

...Yeah.

You know, for a player winning games and championships and stuff to be considered good is total BS. You could take Michael Jordan and put him on a team with a bunch of borderline Euro-leaguers and they might win 9 or 10 games in the regular season.

A player has skill regardless of what they win or lose.

Guess who has the most rings right now in the NBA? ROBERT HORRY. You guys make these assessments in who is better because of where their team is. You would also say that calling Robert Horry a great player, by your own standards, is absurd.

Seems a little hypocritical, don't you think?

Anyway, McGrady has always been really fun to watch. Him in the Houston series reminded me of an MJ sighting... the guy was a diety among commoners in that series. It's a shame they didn't win it because it was awesome to watch, and I really was rooting for Houston.

Too bad Houston has one of the worst groups of role players in the NBA.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Prolific Scorer said:


> T-Mac will win MVP next year, book it.


no


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

I Start Fires said:


> remember that time the lakers were bounced by darko milicic?


ok


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> He made an appearance in the first round of LAST year's playoffs...but Dirk the Diggler bounced him out, so it really didn't do much.


Right, kind of like Tayshaun Prince bounced LeBron out this year.


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## Benjie (Aug 1, 2005)

If T-Mac comes back next season and the Rockets get a high seed as well as him averaging crazy numbers like 27/7/6, then I can see him being in contention for the award, but I don't think you can call anyone MVP until at least all-star break.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

What has Kobe done since LA's Franchise moved to Miami?


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Miss the Playoffs.
Barely Make the Playoffs, then Lose in the 1st Round.
Change his number to 24 to take the attention off his 1 Point, 3 Shots Attempted in the 2nd half, Game 7.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

I Start Fires said:


> remember that time the lakers were bounced by darko milicic?


Darko Milicic, played? lol 

If you said Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups...yeah, they bounced the Lakers. Darko, the only thing he bounced was his contract to another city.


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

Theoretic said:


> If by T-Mac you mean Steve Nash, then yes, I agree with you.



If by steve nash you mean Dwyane Wade, then yes, I agree with you.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> Darko Milicic, played? lol
> 
> If you said Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups...yeah, they bounced the Lakers. Darko, the only thing he bounced was his contract to another city.


Darko bounced himself onto the court at the end of Game 5, as he is the human victory cigar.

I watched #24 Bounce tears down his cheek, as he cries everytime he loses a Playoff series now.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Miss the Playoffs.
> Barely Make the Playoffs, then Lose in the 1st Round.
> Change his number to 24 to take the attention off his 1 Point, 3 Shots Attempted in the 2nd half, Game 7.


But he's won first round matchups, correct? He has even made it to the second round. Let's not even get into the fact that he has 3x more Championships then T-Mac. He pushed a number 2 seed, to 7 games, by himself without the help of the second best center in the league, and a pretty damn good point guard in Mike James. And on a sidenote, wasn't the number change a known fact near the end of season...way before the playoffs? The playoffs where Kobe's NBDL teammates completely gave up after going up 3 games to 1, on the Suns? How is he not criticized for not taking alot of shots, when that is all anyone complained about when he was dropping ridiculous numbers...like 81 points, or 62 points in 3 quarters? He follows a GAMEPLAN the entire series, and it failed on him cause his teammates couldn't capitalize on anything. Don't be salty that your boy T-Mac is a annual loser, with a disgusting lazy eye. :raised_ey


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

The MAMBA said:


> But he's won first round matchups, correct? He has even made it to the second round. Let's not even get into the fact that he has 3x more Championships then T-Mac. He pushed a number 2 seed, to 7 games, by himself without the help of the second best center in the league, and a pretty damn good point guard in Mike James. And on a sidenote, wasn't the number change a known fact near the end of season...way before the playoffs? The playoffs where Kobe's NBDL teammates completely gave up after going up 3 games to 1, on the Suns? How is he not criticized for not taking alot of shots, when that is all anyone complained about when he was dropping ridiculous numbers...like 81 points, or 62 points in 3 quarters? He follows a GAMEPLAN the entire series, and it failed on him cause his teammates couldn't capitalize on anything. Don't be salty that your boy T-Mac is a annual loser, with a disgusting lazy eye. :raised_ey


\

not without shaq he hasn't


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Prolific Scorer said:


> I watched #24 Bounce tears down his cheek, as he cries everytime he loses a Playoff series now.


He cried when the Suns beat the Lakers? You say that like it is a bad thing. It means he obviously cares about the game he plays, and he actually puts in work and is emotionally invested. Kobe isn't the one pouting when off the court problems come his way. He doesn't go hide in his shell, and contimplaint retirement...and say he is going to retire because he is scared of zone defenses, and because of an aching back. T-Mac is a quitter. Always complaing. Dude spent the whole year crying... to the media, fans, teammates, etc. When Kobe has problems off the court, he digs in on the court, and lets the game be theraputic for him. He doesn't whine, cry...and say he is going to retire. Although, your probably can't see that...because you're looking through the lazy eye of a T-Mac stan. In fact, T-Mac's fugly, lazy eye is pretty much a metaphor for his game.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

TiMVP2 said:


> \
> 
> not without shaq he hasn't


And? lol

Jordan hasn't won a ring with out Pippen...

Magic hasn't won a ring w/o Worthy, or Byron Scott...

Did Dr. J win a ring w/o Moses, or Maurice Cheeks?

This idotic comeback is about as flawed as it can get.


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## JMES HOME (May 22, 2006)

Tmac next season will come out good.... he'll play really well... but not enough for MVP 


he could get some votes though never know....


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

Kobe/LeBron/D-Wade/Dirk/many others > T-Mac


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

LameR said:


> Kobe/LeBron/D-Wade/Dirk/many ohters > T-Mac


Truer words, were NEVER spoken.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

#24 has done NOTHING without the Franchise, Big Disel, The BIg Aristotle, Shaq.

Kobe will never even make the Conf. Finals again.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The precedent has been set. Unless T-Mac is leading a team with more than 55 wins, he will not win. Not to mention if he leads his team to 55, Steve Nash leads his team over 60, Lebron or Dirk over 55 as well, then do you really think McGrady will win?

He would need to have his best season on a championship contender to win. Does anyone other than Houston fans, think that team is a championship contender?


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

LameR said:


> Kobe/LeBron/D-Wade/Dirk/many others > T-Mac


what does dirk do better than a healthy tmac? score? pass? defend?

i'll give dirk the advantage in rebounding.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Prolific Scorer said:


> #24 has done NOTHING without the Franchise, Big Disel, The BIg Aristotle, Shaq.
> 
> Kobe will never even make the Conf. Finals again.


Will McGrady ever play again, or even get past the first round ever again? Not that he ever has. Hahaha. :cheers:


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

I Start Fires said:


> what does dirk do better than a healthy tmac? score? pass? defend?
> 
> i'll give dirk the advantage in rebounding.


Lead his team to the NBA Finals. He does that better, for one. :biggrin:


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

Wow, this thread is stupid. I don't see it called "Kobe vs McGrady".

Bottom line is they are probably both equally talented when healthy, and yes, you do need a good team behind you to go anywhere.

End of thread, and end of this retarded on going flame war between Kobe and McGrady. It's the same crap recycled over and over.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

unluckyseventeen said:


> Wow, this thread is stupid. I don't see it called "Kobe vs McGrady".
> 
> Bottom line is they are probably both equally talented when healthy, and yes, you do need a good team behind you to go anywhere.
> 
> End of thread, and end of this retarded on going flame war between Kobe and McGrady. It's the same crap recycled over and over.


You do realize it was the insecure "Lazy Eye" fan who brought Kobe into the conversation, don't you?


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

Yes. That wasn't directed at anybody other than people that continue to nag at it. It's the same revolving issue about "who has won what games". 

Last I checked a player plays on a TEAM. If this were tennis or boxing then it might be a different story. Both are about equally talented... that's about all you can say.

It's pretty boring to see threads go from some decent insight and turn into some player or team vs another player or team that's totally unrelated, and people just keep throwing the same arguments back and forth. It's usually the same group of people doing it on every single thread, too.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

That's the world of sports arguments and socialization. It will always be as so.


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

The MAMBA said:


> This idotic comeback is about as flawed as it can get.


the irony


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

TiMVP2 said:


> the irony


You're 14, do you even know what irony means? :raised_ey


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

I'm 13,and notice how all the players you said were THE BEST ON THE TEAM UNLIKE KOBE DO'H.


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## bayoubach (Feb 13, 2006)

I think we must be reminded that T Mac wears #1 because he was a huge Penny Hardaway fan growing up....as I was/am too.....and we must be reminded that T Mac's career is starting to go down the same path.. The injuries for T Mac get worse and worse every year....and back problems are VERY TOUGH to battle and come back from.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

T-Mac came back from the same back injuries in 03 and dominated, he will do the same next year.

T-Mac MVP 07.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> When T-Mac wins A playoff series... then we'll talk.


When Kobe Bryant does it without one of the most dominant centers of all-time, likewise we'll talk.

McGrady has been one of the great playoff performers of his generation. He simply hasn't had the talent around him to beat higher seeded teams.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Can you recomend any good stocks?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> And? lol
> 
> Jordan hasn't won a ring with out Pippen...
> 
> ...


And yet people act like McGrady is a loser for not winning despite not having a Shaq, Pippen, Worthy, Malone, etc.

Go figure, eh?


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> When Kobe Bryant does it without one of the most dominant centers of all-time, likewise we'll talk.
> 
> McGrady has been one of the great playoff performers of his generation. He simply hasn't had the talent around him to beat higher seeded teams.


And you can't same the same for Kobe? Kobe had less talent this year, than Houston did last year, and this year Kobe ran into a tougher team.

Also, how do you fault Kobe and his accomplishments because he so happened to be put on a team with Shaq? Then you can legitametly argue Jordan wouldn't have won w/o one of the greatest defenders of all time. Then, nobodies accomplishments are justified. It's a cop out excuse, always has been. Kobe couldn't help what team he was put on, and with who. And just cause you're on a team with a dominant player, doesn't mean you will win. See T-Mac for an example.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Look at McGrady's Playoff #'s over his Career, 31 7 6 and 2 on 46% Shooting.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> And you can't same the same for Kobe? Kobe had less talent this year, than Houston did last year, and this year Kobe ran into a tougher team.


I'd say they ran into similarly strong teams. And Kobe's team was probably more talented than the Magic teams that McGrady got to the playoffs.

In any case, I said it in *response* to some poster saying, "Let McGrady win a playoff series then we'll talk," in order to show that it goes both ways.



> Kobe couldn't help what team he was put on, and with who.
> ...
> See T-Mac for an example.


This is *exactly* my point. You're confusing point with response. I was responding to those who claim that McGrady "hasn't won." He hasn't won as much as, say, Kobe, because he hasn't had a presence like Shaq. When Kobe is in the same position as McGrady, they end up with similar results: out in the first round.

So, no, it's not about blaming Kobe for playing with Shaq. It's pointing out the terrible logic of downgrading McGrady for "not winning." Given the same circumstances, Kobe has also not won. And yet, some people seem to miss the irony of the situation.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> And yet people act like McGrady is a loser for not winning despite not having a Shaq, Pippen, Worthy, Malone, etc.
> 
> Go figure, eh?


But has had VC, YAO MING (second best center in the game), Grant Hill, Mike Miller...and hasn't even won a playoff series.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Look at McGrady's Playoff #'s over his Career, 31 7 6 and 2 on 46% Shooting.


He has barely been in the playoffs, and he has no won series in any of them anyway. Either he doesn't make the playoffs, and when he does...he loses. Congrats.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Prolific Scorer said:


> T-Mac will win MVP next year, book it.


He has a chance, yup.

So does:

- Kobe;
- Lebron;
- Duncan;
- Nash;
- Dirk;
- YAO MING;
- Amare;
and others.


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

The MAMBA said:


> But has had VC, YAO MING (second best center in the game), Grant Hill, Mike Miller...and hasn't even won a playoff series.



1.T-Mac didn't even break out when vc was there!
2.Yao didn't get the 2nd best center status until mid 2005-2006 when T MAC WUZ INJURED
3.GRANT HILL WUZ INJURED
4.why are you overating mike miller?


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Poor McGrady has lost his status as a potentially better player than Kobe after this past season. Now, everyone is debating if/when Wade and LeBron might surpass Kobe. For T-Mac's sake, I hope his back heals (seems unlikely), that Yao Ming is going to be a dominant center (possible), and that Jeff Van Gundy and his antiquated 90's slowdown game get out of town (please?).

With all that and some decent roleplayers, they could be the next dominant duo in the NBA. Good luck Tracy!


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

TiMVP2 said:


> 1.T-Mac didn't even break out when vc was there!
> 2.Yao didn't get the 2nd best center status until mid 2005-2006 when T MAC WUZ INJURED
> 3.GRANT HILL WUZ INJURED
> 4.why are you overating mike miller?


1. He still didn't win with him...
2. Who was the second best center prior to Yao, this year? It was Yao. That's why he was an All-Star.
3. Yeah, touche.
4) Mike Miller? The 6th man? Kid can play, always could. So could Darrell Armstrong on those Orlando teams.


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

1. He still didn't win with him...
WELL HE COULDN'T BECAUSE HE WAS NOT THE T-MAC YOU SAW
2. Who was the second best center prior to Yao, this year? It was Yao. That's why he was an All-Star.
Ben Wallace.he's been an allstar since his rookie year,because he keeps getting voted


3. Yeah, touche.
I won


4) Mike Miller? The 6th man? Kid can play, always could. So could Darrell Armstrong on those Orlando teams.
Kobe arguably has a better supporting cast
smush>darrel
Lamar is good
Kwame is aiite
mihm aint bad
waltons aiite


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Why all this debate to crown the second best perimeter player behind Lebron


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> Why all this debate to crown the second best perimeter player behind Lebron


Isn't THE BEST perimeter player Steve Nash?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Isn't THE BEST perimeter player Steve Nash?


 No PC: he is the best OVERALL player in the league - come on you can't deny the back to back MVP's. I simply refuse to put Lebron, Kobe, TMac in the same sentence as Nash


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> 2. Who was the second best center prior to Yao, this year? It was Yao. That's why he was an All-Star.


i'd bet you were one of those people who thought yao didnt deserve to get voted into any of those games over brad miller or amare or camby.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> But has had VC, YAO MING (second best center in the game), Grant Hill, Mike Miller...and hasn't even won a playoff series.


Now you're just being intellectually dishonest. Grant Hill? You mean the perpertually-injured non-entity? Mike Miller? You're comparing Mike Miller to Shaq, Pippen, Moses Malone, etc? By the same token, Bryant had LAMAR ODOM (gasp) and failed to win a playoff series. Loser.

And when he was teammates with Carter, McGrady was in his first few seasons and not a star or superstar yet.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

It's easy to kick the guy when he's down.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

JPSeraph said:


> It's easy to kick the guy when he's down.


Well, in all honesty, when has T-Mac NOT being "down"?

Something interesting... I know all we bball heads are volatile and momentum-prone, but hasn't T-Mac fall off the radar for a couple of years now?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> Something interesting... I know all we bball heads are volatile and momentum-prone, but hasn't T-Mac fall off the radar for a couple of years now?


Last off-season, after the Lakers didn't make the playoffs and McGrady played an amazing series against Nowitzki and Dallas, a majority of people picked McGrady as better than Bryant in a poll on this forum.

So, no, not really.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

T-mac first needs to lose all the weight he put on to deal with the _physical play_ after the 04-05 season. That played a large part in his back troubles and took a lot away from his athleticism. I got ****ing sick of watching him play like Peja Stojakovic. He needs to grow a pair of balls too. After the 02-03 season he simply hasn't been the same attacking player. He's afraid of taking contact and looks awkward even when he does go up for a layup/dunk. 

T-mac for MVP isn't gonna happen. Definitely NOT next season. I just wanna see him get healthy, become tougher and get back to playing aggressive basketball again. Everything else will take care of itself.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Well, in all honesty, when has T-Mac NOT being "down"?


When he averaged 32.1 in 02-03, the most since MJ did 32.6 in a much higher paced 92-93 NBA. And this was _before_ the current rules restricting perimeter defenders allowed everyone and their poor perimeter cousin to get career highs in PPG.



> Something interesting... I know all we bball heads are volatile and momentum-prone, but hasn't T-Mac fall off the radar for a couple of years now?


Since his arrival in Houston, T-Mac has played in Van Gundy's slow down offense and they've been trying to find a way to best utilize his talents with Yao's. Recall when Kobe was forced to play with that odious Shaq and denied his entitlement to being the next MJ.

T-Mac has been the closest thing to Jordan come playoff time if one goes by PPG. Consistently around 30ppg. Pretty impressive considering his teams have been mostly overmatched.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Last off-season, after the Lakers didn't make the playoffs and McGrady played an amazing series against Nowitzki and Dallas, a majority of people picked McGrady as better than Bryant in a poll on this forum.
> 
> So, no, not really.


So, yes, really momentum-prone.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> When T-Mac wins A playoff series... then we'll talk.


When Kobe wins a series without Shaq, then you're allowed to talk about t-mac.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

JPSeraph said:


> When he averaged 32.1 in 02-03, the most since MJ did 32.6 in a much higher paced 92-93 NBA. And this was _before_ the current rules restricting perimeter defenders allowed everyone and their poor perimeter cousin to get career highs in PPG.


4th in MVP voting.

One-and-out.



> Since his arrival in Houston, T-Mac has played in Van Gundy's slow down offense and they've been trying to find a way to best utilize his talents with Yao's. *Recall when Kobe was forced to play with that odious Shaq and denied his entitlement to being the next MJ*.


Since his arrival in Houston, he was one-and-out and missing the playoffs next year. Not a pretty resume, here. And not an all-nba first teamer, also.



> T-Mac has been the closest thing to Jordan come playoff time if one goes by PPG. Consistently around 30ppg. Pretty impressive considering his teams have been mostly overmatched.


Who cares about PPG? That's the same thing as marveling at Amare's +30ppg against the Spurs while being ousted like 4-1. Completely irrelevant. T-Mac had a great series against Dallas, yes he had. till game 7 and that horrendous 40-point massacre.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

I would love to see T-mac/kobe/Lebron take MVP. If T-mac wins it, it'll definitely put his stocks on Fire.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

VC_15 said:


> When Kobe wins a series without Shaq, then you're allowed to talk about t-mac.


Kobe never played with Yao Ming...


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Kobe never played with Yao Ming...


T-mac never had Phil Jackson, nice try.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> 4th in MVP voting.
> 
> One-and-out.


Care to recall where Kobe finished in MVP voting after his 35ppg outburst this season?



> Since his arrival in Houston, he was one-and-out and missing the playoffs next year. Not a pretty resume, here. And not an all-nba first teamer, also.


Sounds like Kobe's resume the last two years. Right down to being embarrassed in a Game 7 loss.



> Who cares about PPG? That's the same thing as marveling at Amare's +30ppg against the Spurs while being ousted like 4-1. Completely irrelevant. T-Mac had a great series against Dallas, yes he had. till game 7 and that horrendous 40-point massacre.


Kobe seems to care about his PPG. Except for the great series he had against Phoenix this year. Until that game 7 choke job.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

JPSeraph said:


> Care to recall where Kobe finished in MVP voting after his 35ppg outburst this season?


My point was that PPG don't matter. 




> Sounds like Kobe's resume the last two years. Right down to being embarrassed in a Game 7 loss.


Odom < Ming.



> Kobe seems to care about his PPG. Except for the great series he had against Phoenix this year. Until that game 7 choke job.


I agree.

Now, most of the people who have bothered to read my posts know where i side in the Kobe vs T-Mac thingy. and all my arguments are well patented. Butt this is not a Kobe vs T-Mac thing, is it?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> So, yes, really momentum-prone.


Quite.

My "no, not really" regarded McGrady being "off the radar for a couple of years." As recently as last off-season, McGrady was seen as the arguably the best perimeter player in the game.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> My point was that PPG don't matter.


And mine was that T-Mac's great individual 02-03 season was in fact highly comparable to Kobe's great individual 05-06 season, from the massive scoring outburst, to their finish in the MVP voting, right down to their eventual first round playoff defeat. The same Kobe season that is being used as a point of comparison for "where is T-Mac today".



> Odom < Ming


And PJ>SVG.



> Butt this is not a Kobe vs T-Mac thing, is it?


By comparison, yes it is.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> When Kobe wins a series without Shaq, then you're allowed to talk about t-mac.


Let's compare 2 seasons of someone's career to the entire of another? Kobe is better than Mac, and has 3 rings. Regardless of the idiotic road blocks haters create I.E. When Kobe does yadda yadda w/o Shaq, then we'll talk etc. And people wondered why Kobe wanted to give it a try going solo, his accomplishments are always diminished because of something. No one else in the league can say they have 3 titles AS superstars, besides: Shaq and Duncan. Haters, get over it.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> T-mac never had Phil Jackson, nice try.


No, but he had Jeff Van Gundy...he's no slouch either. Coaching doesn't play THAT much importance. Mike Brown isn't that great of a coach...it was LeBron that lead them to the second road, and took the Piston's to 7 games.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> Let's compare 2 seasons of someone's career to the entire of another? Kobe is better than Mac, and has 3 rings. Regardless of the idiotic road blocks haters create I.E. When Kobe does yadda yadda w/o Shaq, then we'll talk etc. And people wondered why Kobe wanted to give it a try going solo, his accomplishments are always diminished because of something. No one else in the league can say they have 3 titles AS superstars, besides: Shaq and Duncan. Haters, get over it.


 I fail to see how it is hating to point out that when Kobe won those three titles he was playing with a prime top 10 of ALL time and who was the best player on those Laker teams. In addition, he was being coached by the best coach of all time, etc. When comparing players and winning titles is brought up to compare player X vs Kobe and titles are brought up: this becomes fair game. Clearly Shaq creates a huge benefit to perimeter players in terms of wins (Penny, Kobe, and now Wade)


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> Let's compare 2 seasons of someone's career to the entire of another? Kobe is better than Mac, and has 3 rings. Regardless of the idiotic road blocks haters create I.E. When Kobe does yadda yadda w/o Shaq, then we'll talk etc. And people wondered why Kobe wanted to give it a try going solo, his accomplishments are always diminished because of something. No one else in the league can say they have 3 titles AS superstars, besides: Shaq and Duncan. Haters, get over it.



Now, yes kobe is better than T-mac.But that does not change the fact that Kobe has not wone anything without shaq yet, whereas T-mac have gone to the playoffs at least. So you cannot use the argument that T-mac didn't win a series, because your boy didn't also. MVP isn't usually the best player, and that only reinforces the Idea of the chances T-mac getting MVP next year.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Didn't say it didn't. Basketball is a team game. We'll leave those accomplishments out then. Comparing individual numbers and statistics, and just watching them play...it is quite obvious Kobe is the superior of the two.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> No, but he had Jeff Van Gundy...he's no slouch either. Coaching doesn't play THAT much importance. Mike Brown isn't that great of a coach...it was LeBron that lead them to the second road, and took the Piston's to 7 games.



Oh right, like the lakers could've won any games with pheonix this year without Phil Jackson's philosophy.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> Now, yes kobe is better than T-mac.But that does not change the fact that Kobe has not wone anything without shaq yet, whereas T-mac have gone to the playoffs at least. So you cannot use the argument that T-mac didn't win a series, because your boy didn't also. MVP isn't usually the best player, and that only reinforces the Idea of the chances T-mac getting MVP next year.


No, because you make it sound as if Kobe was some bum while they were winning the rings. He was the second best player on the Lakers? yes... but he was also the second best player in the league.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I think this thread needs to be closed, because it's gotten way off topic (due to me in part), but before the mods to that....I would like to say....

Tracy McGrady 4 MVP in 07


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> Didn't say it didn't. Basketball is a team game. We'll leave those accomplishments out then. Comparing individual numbers and statistics, and just watching them play...it is quite obvious Kobe is the superior of the two.


So? who's saying T-mac is better than Kobe?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> No, because you make it sound as if Kobe was some bum while they were winning the rings. He was the second best player on the Lakers? yes... but he was also the second best player in the league.


 Umm Duncan was the second best player in the league


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## lw32 (May 24, 2003)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Tracy McGrady was getting carted off in a stretcher the 01-02 season too, everyone said he was DONE....came back and averaged 32.1 6.5 and 5.5 and made the All-NBA 1st Team.
> 
> T-Mac will comeback with a vengence next season on ALL of those who thought he was done.....
> 
> T-MAC MVP Campaign '07 GET WITH IT OR LIVE WITHOUT IT!!!!


I'll live without it, but thanks for the offer. Not going to happen.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> Oh right, like the lakers could've won any games with pheonix this year without Phil Jackson's philosophy.


Who said that, but don't make it sound like the coach is more important than an All-Star to share the floor with. The player is always going to affect the game more than the coach. If you went to a team and said, what would you rather have: Phil Jackson as your coach, or Yao Ming as your center? What do you think the answer would be?


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> No, because you make it sound as if Kobe was some bum while they were winning the rings. He was the second best player on the Lakers? yes... but he was also the second best player in the league.



No, you're wrong. Kobe was not the secobd best player in the league.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Pioneer10 said:


> Umm Duncan was the second best player in the league


Kobe.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> No, you're wrong. Kobe was not the secobd best player in the league.


Just because I don't want to argue semantics...I'll say ok. But he was for shizzle top 5.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

KOBE FOR MVP 2007!!!


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Yeah, the pink font justifies that statement.

TY.

Tracy McGrady 4 MVP in 07


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> Who said that, but don't make it sound like the coach is more important than an All-Star to share the floor with. The player is always going to affect the game more than the coach. If you went to a team and said, what would you rather have: Phil Jackson as your coach, or Yao Ming as your center? What do you think the answer would be?


Definitely Yao, but if you Had to choose between Jeff and Phil who would it be? Phil in a fuking landslide.

Phil is a freaking genuis, look what he did to the Lakers this year. You wouldn't think that if he had Yao/T-mac which are very close to Kobe/Shaq that he could've at least led that team to the finals? If phil can make kobe play within the system, he'll have no problem with T-mac.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> Kobe.


 What? Duncan has been clearly the best or second best player in the league this decade till he got hurt this year.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> Comparing individual numbers and statistics, and just watching them play...it is quite obvious Kobe is the superior of the two.


As far as numbers, incorrect. McGrady has the higher career average in PER.

As for watching them play...what a shock that you, as a Lakers fan, feels it's clear Kobe is better from "watching him play." From watching them play, it seems pretty clear to me that they've been near mirror images throughout their careers.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Man, If I could rep, I would've repped Minstrel about 5 Times just on this thread. 

Everytime I see Minstrel post, he impresses me more.....dude just be straight owning fools on these boards, Go get em' Minstrel..... :wlift:


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Yeah, the pink font justifies that statement.
> 
> TY.
> 
> Tracy McGrady 4 MVP in 07






DWYANE WADE 4 MVP IN 07

DAWG U KNOW BLUE IS THE MOST MANLY COLOR IN THE WORLD DAWG


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

How did this thread turn into complete garbage?


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

JPSeraph said:


> How did this thread turn into complete garbage?


 this thread started as garbage


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> As far as numbers, incorrect. McGrady has the higher career average in PER.
> 
> As for watching them play...what a shock that you, as a Lakers fan, feels it's clear Kobe is better from "watching him play." From watching them play, it seems pretty clear to me that they've been near mirror images throughout their careers.


Really now? Is everything based off PER? Is it not true that Kobe didn't get as many touches early in his career BECAUSE he played with Shaq? If you watch the game, you would clearly see Kobe is better. From the simple fact alone that at least Kobe plays D. Has T-Mac ever been all first-team of anything?


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I Start Fires said:


> this thread started as garbage


I Agree, I was just looking for attention....and I got it. :nah: :nah:


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

I Start Fires said:


> this thread started as garbage


True, but in between there was some reasonable discussion.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Blue rules. Something is the truth if you write it in blue.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Taking McGrady over Kobe is just silly. The dudes back is too much of a problem and he just isn't reliable enough to build around. When they're both completely healthy, Kobe Bryant is a better player, but it's atleast a valid comparison. 

McGrady is Amare status right now for me. I know they're great players, but for the long term, I'll believe it when I see it.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> Really now? Is everything based off PER?


Well, it's one of the better "numbers" out there, in that it takes into account scoring, rebounding, assists, steals, blocks, turnovers, adjusts for pace and chances.



> Is it not true that Kobe didn't get as many touches early in his career BECAUSE he played with Shaq?


How many touches did McGrady get early in his career with the Raptors? Probably less than Bryant, but certainly not more.



> If you watch the game, you would clearly see Kobe is better.


Oh.



> From the simple fact alone that at least Kobe plays D.


So does McGrady. Both see their defense degrade when they're forced to carry the entire offensive load for their teams. McGrady played very good defense in Toronto, his first season in Orlando and then in Houston. In his final several years in Orlando, all his energy was spent having a hand in nearly every point scored for Orlando, much as Kobe has for LA the last two seasons, and Kobe's defense has suffered for it.



> Has T-Mac ever been all first-team of anything?


Yes, of the NBA.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> McGrady is Amare status right now for me. I know they're great players, but for the long term, I'll believe it when I see it.


Good point about T-Mac's injury holding him back, but wouldn't you say it's unfair to use this last season as a basis for comparing T-Mac to Kobe _because_ of the injury?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> When they're both completely healthy, Kobe Bryant is a better player


Prior to this season, there hasn't been much objective evidence of that. This season, Bryant was obviously much better. For the future, it remains to be seen if McGrady can return to previous levels.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

I think if we're going to base it on their career, Kobe is a slightly better player than Mac for reasons like Kobe plays a more consistent defense and takes more pride in conditioning himself in the offseason.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> So does McGrady. Both see their defense degrade when they're forced to carry the entire offensive load for their teams. McGrady played very good defense in Toronto, his first season in Orlando and then in Houston. In his final several years in Orlando, all his energy was spent having a hand in nearly every point scored for Orlando, much as Kobe has for LA the last two seasons, and Kobe's defense has suffered for it.


This is very true, McGrady was a good defensive player thus the comparison with Pippen during his younger days in Toronto with Carter (or possibly because the media is just nfatuated with the next MJ/Pip combo and would never give it a rest.) I recalled the series against NYK and Tmac of course not carrying majority of the offensive load was a better defender, same can be said with Kobe when he had the Big Fella in Los Angeles, its pretty obvious how Kobe's defense this season (or even last) was not as stellar a few years ago, though he still had some spurts of his former All Defense First Team nowadays.

The difference I think between Kobe and Tmac's defense is the pride and egotistical value they put in it (which obviously cannot be measured by stats, not saying that McGrady lacks it either). Kobe seems to take more of an effort _especially_ when facing a player who are considered great offensive talents.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Kobe seems to take more of an effort _especially_ when facing a player who are considered great offensive talents.


I thought McGrady put a lot of effort into shutting Nowitzki down last year...a feat that looks more and more impressive considering the carnage that Dirk has wreaked this season

Also, McGrady has always put a lot of effort into his matchups with Kobe. I've always thought their matchups have been rather fantastic. McGrady hasn't shut Kobe down, or vice versa, but both seem to take a measure of pride in pushing the other.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> I thought McGrady put a lot of effort into shutting Nowitzki down last year...a feat that looks more and more impressive considering the carnage that Dirk has wreaked this season
> 
> Also, McGrady has always put a lot of effort into his matchups with Kobe. I've always thought their matchups have been rather fantastic. McGrady hasn't shut Kobe down, or vice versa, but both seem to take a measure of pride in pushing the other.



Don't forget the layup game winner that T-mac had this year with his back hurting with Kobe defending him.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> I thought McGrady put a lot of effort into shutting Nowitzki down last year...a feat that looks more and more impressive considering the carnage that Dirk has wreaked this season



He did, but thats just one of the rare one's that I remember that made the headlines, compared to Kobe's numerous personal on court battles to prove himself. Either the media is just always riding the "Kobe proving he can do this" mentality or McGrady just simply didnt have the defensive recognition that the media always looks for their in-depth analysis of a player (sarcasm), which most likely is the latter.





Minstrel said:


> Also, McGrady has always put a lot of effort into his matchups with Kobe. I've always thought their matchups have been rather fantastic. McGrady hasn't shut Kobe down, or vice versa, but both seem to take a measure of pride in pushing the other


Yes they have been, watching Tracy and Kobe go at it on both ends of the floor is truly a entertaining game to watch, but hey I totally recalled Phil Jackson in his book "The Last Season" mentioning how good Kobe was on defense, putting Kobe on McGrady on the second half ,because Tracy was on fire in the previous half...fast forward Kobe shut down Tracy and helped LA to another regular season victory.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> Don't forget the layup game winner that T-mac had this year with his back hurting with Kobe defending him.


Sure..only realistically Devean George was guarding him.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> He did, but thats just one of the rare one's that I remember that made the headlines, compared to Kobe's numerous personal on court battles to prove himself.


I don't actually recall very many times that Bryant has shut a top scorer down. 



> mentioning how good Kobe was on defense, putting Kobe on McGrady on the second half ,because Tracy was on fire in the previous half...fast forward Kobe shut down Tracy and helped LA to another regular season victory.


I remember that game, that was the one where the Magic nearly beat the "four Hall of Famer" Lakers, but Strickland turned the ball over in the backcourt for an easy game-winning score for LA.

In the second half, Kobe did not shut down McGrady one-on-one. McGrady was consistently swarmed by LA. Kobe was the primary defender, but Malone and Payton also doubled and tripled him, forcing the ball out of his hands.

In the first half, the Lakers tried to get by with guarding him one-on-one (Kobe spent some time on him) and zoning him, and McGrady torched them.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Sure..only realistically Devean George was guarding him.


Seriously. Don't act as if back pain is new to T-Mac. He always has had it, don't make it out to be more than it is.


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## jworth (Feb 17, 2006)

Obviously I would love to see McGrady pull off an MVP season next year, but considering the rise of Lebron, even if McGrady leads the Rockets to a much-improved season, he'll be forced to put up numbers we haven't seen of him since Orlando--if then. I expect McGrady to pull off a stellar season if he stays healthy, and I expect Houston to have a nice year as well. But TMac winning the MVP would come as a surprise to me. 

As far as McGrady needing to win a playoff series before he wins MVP, Kobe and Lebron were both heavily considered for the award this season even before either of them had ever led his team past the first round (Doing it with the help of a guy named Shaq doesn't help in this discussion). But again, that doesn't mean I think McGrady will be the MVP next season.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> I don't actually recall very many times that Bryant has shut a top scorer down. .


I dont either, neither did I mention that he did, but Kobe did numerous times had put in a good defensive play limiting the opposing player from going off. 




Minstrel said:


> I remember that game, that was the one where the Magic nearly beat the "four Hall of Famer" Lakers, but Strickland turned the ball over in the backcourt for an easy game-winning score for LA.
> 
> In the second half, Kobe did not shut down McGrady one-on-one. McGrady was consistently swarmed by LA. Kobe was the primary defender, but Malone and Payton also doubled and tripled him, forcing the ball out of his hands.
> 
> In the first half, the Lakers tried to get by with guarding him one-on-one (Kobe spent some time on him) and zoning him, and McGrady torched them.


Thats something I cannot dispute, due to the fact that I have not seen the game and is only going by my recollection on what I read from Phil jackson's tell all story.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

jworth said:


> Obviously I would love to see McGrady pull off an MVP season next year, but considering the rise of Lebron, even if McGrady leads the Rockets to a much-improved season, he'll be forced to put up numbers we haven't seen of him since Orlando--if then. I expect McGrady to pull off a stellar season if he stays healthy, and I expect Houston to have a nice year as well. But TMac winning the MVP would come as a surprise to me.
> .


Hey dont forget, stellar season or highly impressive regular season stats doesnt guarantee an MVP award. Nash proved it.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Kobe... takes more pride in conditioning himself in the offseason.[/B]


McGrady's back problems this season were mainly a result of him over-exerting in the offseason. Jeff Van Gundy (I think -- it was either him or the Rockets' strength and conditioning coach) remarked that he'd never before seen a player train that hard during the offseason.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Hakeem said:


> McGrady's back problems this season were mainly a result of him over-exerting in the offseason. Jeff Van Gundy (I think -- it was either him or the Rockets' strength and conditioning coach) remarked that he'd never before seen a player train that hard during the offseason.


If thats the case then that only improves Kobe's intangible value over McGrady, Kobe worked as hard this offseason and yet he did not miss a game at all. ( I remember an article where Magic Johnson and Tex Winter commented and is concerned on how hard he was pushing himself for this season and advised to take it a little bit easy)


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> If thats the case then that only improves Kobe's intangible value over McGrady


It improves his durability value over McGrady, for 2005-06. But that wasn't much in doubt.

Prior to this season, the two players had averaged the same amount of games per season.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

MVP is a long shot, comeback player of the year is more likely


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Minstrel, join my club...


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Minstrel, join my club...


I don't generally join clubs. Too "us against them." I'm all about inclusion and being in a club with everyone. The "We're all brothers and sisters unified in love and appreciation" club that everyone is implicitly a member of.

But yeah, I don't think McGrady is done. Heck no.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

I would take Kobe over McGrady 10/10 times, but that is purely off of preference, which is what the argument really is about. In comparison I believe McGrady is a punk as relates to off the court issues, where as Kobe channels his issues into on the court play. Kobe is simply more head strong and I believe a greater leader and this is why I would choose him over McGrady. 

I was going to come into this thread and say something like, "Well Kobe never lost a 3-1 game series lead....like McGrady because we all know Kobe would never let this happen." Then I remembered what happened this year. It's amazing how arguments change as players play. The truth of the matter is using argument like playoff success or statistics has as much if not more to do with teammates and shouldn't be used to downgrade a player's achievements. 

I pray that McGrady comes back at full strenght next year because he was missed and I would love to see him, Kobe, LeBron and Wade healthy and playing on good teams and the comparisons be made then. When is the last time the league had 4 players of this calibur playing at the same time?


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

Holy crap, how long can you guys recycle the same points over and over and still be interested in a thread like this?


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

unluckyseventeen said:


> Holy crap, how long can you guys recycle the same points over and over and still be interested in a thread like this?


If I could, Rep'd....lol


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

ralaw said:


> I was going to come into this thread and say something like, "Well Kobe never lost a 3-1 game series lead....like McGrady because we all know Kobe would never let this happen." Then I remembered what happened this year. It's amazing how arguments change as players play.


That's the ironic thing. The more the two players play, the more they mirror each other's careers at different points. Remember that 1-19 streak McGrady's Magic had? The Lakers had a very similar long losing streak to end the 2004-05 season.



> The truth of the matter is using argument like playoff success or statistics has as much if not more to do with teammates and shouldn't be used to downgrade a player's achievements.


Couldn't agree more.


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## wwl (Apr 18, 2006)

if Houston win 55+
Yao will be a MVP candidate instead of T-Mac


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## jworth (Feb 17, 2006)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Hey dont forget, stellar season or highly impressive regular season stats doesnt guarantee an MVP award. Nash proved it.


Well we all should know that the reason Nash won the MVP in consecutive years was because the NBA looked at it as an opportunity to improve its image. The ghetto-black image of the league, especially following last year's brawl, is the unfair stereotype that the NBA receives from many throughout the US and world. By giving the award to a clean-cut, normal-sized white man the NBA was attempting to show the world that, "hey, our best player isn't of the same nature by which you judge our league." 

In other words, just because a player doesn't win the hardware doesn't mean that they didn't deserve it. The NBA does, at times, tend to have its own agenda.


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## TManiAC (Dec 19, 2004)

ralaw said:


> I would take Kobe over McGrady 10/10 times, but that is purely off of preference, which is what the argument really is about. In comparison *I believe McGrady is a punk as relates to off the court issues, where as Kobe channels his issues into on the court play. Kobe is simply more head strong and I believe a greater leader and this is why I would choose him over McGrady*.
> 
> I was going to come into this thread and say something like, "Well Kobe never lost a 3-1 game series lead....like McGrady because we all know Kobe would never let this happen." Then I remembered what happened this year. It's amazing how arguments change as players play. The truth of the matter is using argument like playoff success or statistics has as much if not more to do with teammates and shouldn't be used to downgrade a player's achievements.
> 
> I pray that McGrady comes back at full strenght next year because he was missed and I would love to see him, Kobe, LeBron and Wade healthy and playing on good teams and the comparisons be made then. When is the last time the league had 4 players of this calibur playing at the same time?



WHOA WHOA WHOA!

What off the court issues are we talking about here? Like his family members dying each year? Thats the only off-the-court issue I can think of with regards to McGrady...

Maybe I should refresh your memory as to how Kobe put a black eye on Samaki Walker's face on the team bus. Not to force the issue, but McGrady was never been accused of rape. If anything, I think McGrady has been a role model to his family. Your definition of head-strong may coincide with my definition of selfish. Only one player was ever able to estrange the most dominant player of all time and one of the most respected coaches of all time, all in one year.

Your argument of McGrady losing 3-1 in the first round to Detroit (1st seed) is an interesting point in that McGrady had Gordan Giricek as the starting SF, we see that Kobe Bryant isnt much better when playing with a bunch of scrubs. How bout we appreciate that McGrady took his 8th seeded team to a 7th game against the heavily favored Pistons? Isnt that enough of an accomplishment in itself? Im sure you wont appreciate me bashing Kobe for not closing out the series against the Suns. Instead, many have praised Kobe for playing at an MVP caliber level and have been surprisingly forgiving about the fact that the Lakers (or in your line of reasoning, Kobe) was unable to close out a 3-1 series lead.

I hate comparing the two, you only compare two players that are very similar and that these two are. They are so similar that maybe its not worth saying who is better than the other. I just like to acknowledge the fact that they cant do it all on their own, despite their individual greatness. Still, I hate even more when people like you bash on McGrady with flawed reasoning.


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## iownu (May 31, 2006)

Tmac should worry about getting his team to the playoffs first, and then maybe he can finnally, for the first time, lead his team to the second round?


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

TManiAC said:


> WHOA WHOA WHOA!
> 
> What off the court issues are we talking about here? Like his family members dying each year? Thats the only off-the-court issue I can think of with regards to McGrady...
> 
> ...


You missed the point of the post. I feel no need to get into a long drawn out argument about how I or you perceieve McGrady or Kobe's mental toughness or selfishness. I could very well easily go into the Kobe/Shaq fued and point out why the downfall of the Lakers had as much to do with Kobe's ego as it did Shaq's, but that argument would only go on deaf ears, as you most likely believe Shaq was a choir boy to Kobe's devil and that argument is worn out. The being down 3-1 comment wasn't an argument, but rather pointing to how as fans we attempt to validate or invalidate a player based on facts that are very transient, thus eventually rendering them useless. No matter how you twist it, at the end of the day both players were the best players in their series with a 3-1 game lead and lost the series. Plain and simple. 

Again, I'm sorry if you feel I'm bashing on McGrady, but maybe next time you should read the entire post before coming to a conclusion.



ralaw said:


> I pray that McGrady comes back at full strength next year because he was missed and I would love to see him, Kobe, LeBron and Wade healthy and playing on good teams and the comparisons be made then. When is the last time the league had 4 players of this calibur playing at the same time?


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## TManiAC (Dec 19, 2004)

ralaw said:


> You missed the point of the post. I feel no need to get into a long drawn out argument about how I or you perceieve McGrady or Kobe's mental toughness or selfishness. I could very well easily go into the Kobe/Shaq fued and point out why the downfall of the Lakers had as much to do with Kobe's ego as it did Shaq's, but that argument would only go on deaf ears, as you most likely believe Shaq was a choir boy to Kobe's devil and that argument is worn out. The being down 3-1 comment wasn't an argument, but rather pointing to how as fans we attempt to validate or invalidate a player based on facts that are very transient, thus eventually rendering them useless. No matter how you twist it, at the end of the day both players were the best players in their series with a 3-1 game lead and lost the series. Plain and simple.
> 
> Again, I'm sorry if you feel I'm bashing on McGrady, but maybe next time you should read the entire post before coming to a conclusion.


I may have missed the point of your post, but I dont need to read youre entire post to come to a conclusion. Your flowery rhetoric in your response doesnt cover up what I did read. I bolded what mattered most to me and I really cant appreciate someone calling McGrady a "punk as relates to off the court issues"

That is flat out wrong.

Fine, you want him to come back healthy. However, Im sure regardless of health you would insist that McGrady is a "punk." 

Ive watched McGrady play for years and his heroism is inspirational to me. From playing with a bad back on Christmas day to put up 40+ and win the game for his special fan and DC Sniper victim, Iran, to putting up 13 points in 33 seconds to will a victory against the Spurs... That's what matters to me. Dont make a generalization about a player like McGrady if your only argument involves a comparison with Kobe. Please.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

TManiAC said:


> I may have missed the point of your post, but I dont need to read youre entire post to come to a conclusion. Your flowery rhetoric in your response doesnt cover up what I did read. I bolded what mattered most to me and I really cant appreciate someone calling McGrady a "punk as relates to on the court issues"
> 
> That is flat out wrong.
> 
> ...


Sorry if a hit an emotional cord.....I wasn't aware McGrady was such an inspirational hero to you. I will try to keep this in mind in future post.


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## TManiAC (Dec 19, 2004)

ralaw said:


> Sorry if a hit an emotional cord.....I wasn't aware McGrady was such an inspirational hero to you. McGrady is a great player.


Despite the implied sarcasm, yeah he is. Alot of ppl perceive his back problems a cop-out... I dont know why.. maybe they just expect so much out of him they believe he's impervious to injury. But despite whatever physical problems, he played at a league-leading level. On top of that, I already brought up the point of his losing close people almost every year to tragic death... how anyone can remain mentally focused enough to play at his level is beyond me. When others refer to his leaving Orlando, I dont think it had anything to do with money, teammates, or differences with the front office... I think he left because he just couldnt stand losing, and thats fine by me. A player like KG is noble in that he values loyalty despite losses, but I dont think anyone would blame him for leaving as every NBA player is a competitor at his root and winning, more than anything else including money, should be the bottom line.

-edit-

Why did you change "he is a great player" to "I will try and keep this in mind in future posts" ???

Are you afraid of admitting hes just that good and as an Orlando fan youre just bitter? Please, don't change attitudes on my account.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

TManiAC said:


> Despite the implied sarcasm, yeah he is. Alot of ppl perceive his back problems a cop-out... I dont know why.. maybe they just expect so much out of him they believe he's impervious to injury. But despite whatever physical problems, he played at a league-leading level. On top of that, I already brought up the point of his losing close people almost every year to tragic death... how anyone can remain mentally focused enough to play at his level is beyond me. When others refer to his leaving Orlando, I dont think it had anything to do with money, teammates, or differences with the front office... I think he left because he just couldnt stand losing, and thats fine by me. A player like KG is noble in that he values loyalty despite losses, but I dont think anyone would blame him for leaving as every NBA player is a competitor at his root and winning, more than anything else including money, should be the bottom line.


I will admit there was a bit of sarcasm, but I can repect your views on him. I would like to clarify that my opinion about McGrady has nothing to do with his back problems. Having back problems is serious injury and shouldn't be played with or overlooked. This past year McGrady had it rough from a series of injuries and off the court issues. My only problem with him was during the all-star break he was acting as if he had it bad, yet he found a way to play in the all-star game through the injuries and off the court issues. Then right after the all-star break he was back to complaining and immediatly left the team. 

I think you pointed to McGrady's biggest problem (and my problem with him). which is similar to his cousin Vince Carter, McGrady doesn't do well in a losing situations. In bad situations he tends to shelter himself from his teammates and coaches and I don't like this from my superstar. I remember when in Orlando things got bad, and he said he didn't want to be a leader and this has kind of stuck with me. This is why I respect KG...he has stuck it out being the leader and has been professional about it.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

TManiAC said:


> I may have missed the point of your post, but I dont need to read youre entire post to come to a conclusion. Your flowery rhetoric in your response doesnt cover up what I did read. I bolded what mattered most to me and I really cant appreciate someone calling McGrady a "punk as relates to off the court issues"
> 
> That is flat out wrong.
> 
> ...


Heroism? Wtf are you talking about? He's a basketball player, not Batman.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

TManiAC said:


> Why did you change "he is a great player" to "I will try and keep this in mind in future posts" ???
> 
> Are you afraid of admitting hes just that good and as an Orlando fan youre just bitter? Please, don't change attitudes on my account.


You are reaching.

I simply said McGrady is a great player and the "I will try and keep this in mind in future posts" was in reference to him being your inspirational hero.

My beliefs about McGrady has nothing to do with me being an Orlando fan, so please don't attempt to pass of my comments as such. I am simply stating my opinion independent of me being an Orlando fan. If you want to use that I could just as easily do the same with you *TMa*niA*C*.


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## TManiAC (Dec 19, 2004)

ralaw said:


> I will admit there was a bit of sarcasm, but I can repect your views on him. I would like to clarify that my opinion about McGrady has nothing to do with his back problems. Having back problems is serious injury and shouldn't be played with or overlooked. This past year McGrady had it rough from a series of injuries and off the court issues. My only problem with him was during the all-star break he was acting as if he had it bad, yet he found a way to play in the all-star game through the injuries and off the court issues. Then right after the all-star break he was back to complaining and immediatly left the team.
> 
> I think you pointed to McGrady's biggest problem (and my problem with him). which is similar to his cousin Vince Carter, McGrady doesn't do well in a losing situations. In bad situations he tends to shelter himself from his teammates and coaches and I don't like this from my superstar. I remember when in Orlando when things got bad, him saying he didn't want to be a leader and this has kind of stuck with me. This is why I respect KG...he has stuck it out being the leader and has been professional about it.



Thank you. I appreciate the reconciliation.

As for his being a losing sitaution, that is just a personal preference unique to you as it is unique to me. I was an Orlando fan myself. I watched as Gabe shipped out Mike Miller (TMacs best friend) to Memphis for Drew Gooden and Gordan Giricek. TMac didnt flap his lip once regarding the trade because he truly felt this was a move in the right direction. It was the same when they let Darrell Armstrong go, another favorite of McGrady and a team leader. Still, the Magic continued to make mistakes (drafting Jerryl Sasser and Steven Hunter, signing Shawn Kemp, Pat Burke, etc...), thats when I feel he lost confidence in the Magic organization, resulting in his leaving. 

TMac is a Houston superstar... he couldnt just sit that AllStar break out with the Rockets hosting the ASG. Maybe his problem is trying to come back from injury too soon.

I dont blame him while you can and thats ok with me, so long as you dont say he's "a punk off the court" and furthering the ridiculousness by mentioning Kobe when everyone clearly knows that Kobe is a magnet for off the court drama.

-edit-

In response to your second post... its more like *TM*ani*AC*.. but close enough.

And no, I dont think its reaching if youve already admitted to sarcasm... what's one to expect in that kind of tone?


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## TManiAC (Dec 19, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> Heroism? Wtf are you talking about? He's a basketball player, not Batman.


And basketball is just a game... yet you sit here watching videos of bball players all day and talking up a storm about this guy and that... I sincerely hope its not because you simply have a man crush on ball players.

Well, I clearly take basketball more seriously than you do. Go ahead, laugh.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

TManiAC said:


> Well, I clearly take basketball more seriously than you do. Go ahead, laugh.


Nique Wilkins > T-Mac.


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## TManiAC (Dec 19, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Nique Wilkins > T-Mac.



MJ > Kobe...

whats your point?


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Nique Wilkins > T-Mac.


 I refuse to debate this.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

TManiAC said:


> MJ > Kobe...
> 
> whats your point?


My point is that you are NOT an unbiased fan...

Hell, look at your chosen nickname, for pete's sake..

So, there's no way i'm discussing T-Mac with you...

Sorry, young grasshopper...


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> My point is that you are NOT an unbiased fan...
> 
> Hell, look at your chosen nickname, for pete's sake..
> 
> ...


That's not very fair. I see you discussing Magic and Kobe all the time.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

TManiAC said:


> And basketball is just a game... yet you sit here watching videos of bball players all day and talking up a storm about this guy and that... I sincerely hope its not because you simply have a man crush on ball players.
> 
> Well, I clearly take basketball more seriously than you do. Go ahead, laugh.


The part you added doesn't go w/ the original.


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## TManiAC (Dec 19, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> My point is that you are NOT an unbiased fan...
> 
> Hell, look at your chosen nickname, for pete's sake..
> 
> ...



Fans are never unbiased.

Still, theres a distinction between making an argument with good supporting facts and making an argument based on complete falsifications. 

If you posted because you felt some malice from me towards Kobe, I do not. I like Kobe and respect him as a player. I think talent wise he is better than TMac, still, to make an argument that TMac is a punk based on the fact that Kobe channels his punkly desires into on-court success does not make sense to me.

And I never asked you to discussed TMac with me. Its your choice.

Touche, Grimy Cockroach.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Hakeem said:


> That's not very fair. I see you discussing Magic and Kobe all the time.


So what? Is my Lakers avatar fooling you?


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## TManiAC (Dec 19, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> The part you added doesn't go w/ the original.



You Said: Heroism? Wtf, hes a basketball player, not batman.

I Said: Yeah, and Basketball is just a game.

Hes not just a basketball player to me. As Im sure basketball is not just a game to you. We both take our "fanaticism" seriously, I would hope. Youre here because you must love basketball as most of us do.. so I dont understand why you cant understand why I perceive TMac as heroic and inspirational as a ball player. Im sure you could go around and ask young ballers who their hero or who their inspiration is, and if they replied MJ... would you respond and say "WTF?! Hes not batman!" ??

Did I break this down enough for you to understand?


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## TManiAC (Dec 19, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> So what? Is my Lakers avatar fooling you?



Was it meant to fool people?


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## monty51524 (Nov 23, 2005)

If only TMac could remain healthy, he would be such a great player.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

Prolific Scorer said:


> T-Mac will win MVP next year, book it.


you are in my sig with thes other blastphamous quotes


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

jworth said:


> Well we all should know that the reason Nash won the MVP in consecutive years was because the NBA looked at it as an opportunity to improve its image. The ghetto-black image of the league, especially following last year's brawl, is the unfair stereotype that the NBA receives from many throughout the US and world. .


I respect your opinion but I think that's insane. The NBA has nothing to do with the votes in the balloting being given tot he media. If its up to the league, you'll see Lebron raising the MVP trophy this year who is 10x as marketable as Nash.



jworth said:


> By giving the award to a clean-cut, normal-sized white man the NBA was attempting to show the world that, "hey, our best player isn't of the same nature by which you judge our league."


African American athletes has represented the face of the NBA for decades, majority of its core Superstars, past and present are predominantly Black with the exception of Larry Bird I dont know any white International household names out there. The NBA has faced some similar image damaging situations by its players and yet they always have rebounded fairly well in marketing the game and not lose its appeal to its fans. So awarding a _normal sized white man_in attempt to make a difference on how everybody will view the NBA will hardly make a difference being that majority of its players who are entertaining, marketable and/or popular are still Black.


I do agree however that Nash winning it this season is quite a questionable decision by the media especially when you have firepowers like Kobe, Lebron, Nowitzki and Wade competing for this prestigous award, who have put up solid numbers and some with as much if not more wins than the Suns.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

TManiAC said:


> You Said: Heroism? Wtf, hes a basketball player, not batman.
> 
> I Said: Yeah, and Basketball is just a game.
> 
> ...


Actually I didn't even read it. But, I don't want to take any more time away from you and your hero. Please, carry on in your worship.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> So what? Is my Lakers avatar fooling you?


are you gonna claim to not be a magic homer?


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## melo4life (Jun 5, 2006)

if u mean Bryant instead of tmac then yes he'll win


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Tracy McGrady 2006-2007 MVP CLOSE THREAD


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

Hey Prolific, put me in your club.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Hey Prolific, put me in your club.


10/4.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Prolific Scorer said:


> 10/4.


its 10-4


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I Start Fires said:


> its 10-4


To-Mate-o's , To-matos.....


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## Pasha The Great (Apr 9, 2005)

Why is it that whenever a Tmac thread is started theres so much debate??


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

tone wone said:


> I refuse to debate this.


Wilkins has better career numbers and did it for an extended period of time, and has lead his team past the first round of the playoffs before... :angel: :biggrin:


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Pasha The Great said:


> Why is it that whenever a Tmac thread is started theres so much debate??


Its the (im)perfect coming together of his game being tragically flawed and his fans worshiping him as a god.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> Wilkins has better career numbers and did it for an extended period of time, and has lead his team past the first round of the playoffs before... :angel: :biggrin:


Wilkins also took the ball to the basket.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Wilkins also took the ball to the basket.


 Wilkins also couldn't shoot.

We can sit here and act like 'Nique was more skilled and productive than McGrady but I dont see much use in lying.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

tone wone, are you saying you can't compare them? Wilkins, even if not above McGrady, is AT THE VERY LEAST at his level. Don't LIE to yourself.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> Its the (im)perfect coming together of his game being tragically flawed and his fans worshiping him as a god.


Haha, awesome. :clap:


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

McGrady is not only a better shooter than Nique, but a better passer and defender as well...

Drexler > Kobe


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

T-Mac can't hold Nique's jock. Being the better jump shooter is actually a benefit to Nique. He took the ball to the rack, where as McGrady settles for Jumpers. If T-Mac gets back to Orlando type numbers, and does it for 6-7 more years... then yeah, he can be compared to Nique. Till then, T-Mac fans need to keep their head in reality.

Nique was fearless, boy. I haven't seen Mac be fearless to the degree Nique was at. Nique would attempt to posterize all 5 men on the court at the same time.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Drexler > Kobe


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

LOL, my man keeps trying to drag Kobe into this? Don't be mad Kobe got 3 rings, and Drexler has 1. Don't be mad Mac never dropped 81. No need to be salty man. Just real talk.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Drexler > Kobe


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Tracy McGrady 2006-07 MVP

TY TY.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Nique > Mac
Kobe > Drexler
Kobe > Drexler + Mac


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Tracy McGrady 06-07 MVP

"T-Mac is as cool as the other side of the pillow"


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

tone wone said:


> Wilkins also couldn't shoot.
> 
> We can sit here and act like 'Nique was more skilled and productive than McGrady but I dont see much use in lying.


If I am given a choice between a guy who averages say... 28 points a game hoisting jumpers and a guy averaging 28 points a game taking it to the rack, I'm taking the guy who takes it to the rack every time.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Was Nique ever reknowned for his passing ability? McGrady is the best passing swingman in the league behind LeBron (yes, ahead of Wade) and before LeBron entered the league, simply _was_ the best passing swingman.

I'd venture to say that McGrady is a better defender too, making him an all-around better player than Dominique Wilkins, something I don't think very many people have ever disputed.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Spriggan said:


> Was Nique ever reknowned for his passing ability? McGrady is the best passing swingman in the league behind LeBron (yes, ahead of Wade) and before LeBron entered the league, simply _was_ the best passing swingman.
> 
> I'd venture to say that McGrady is a better defender too, making him an all-around better player than Dominique Wilkins, something I don't think very many people have ever disputed.


Pretty much.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Pretty much.


Yeah, Spriggs is pretty much insane.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Yeah, Spriggs is pretty much insane.


nique is better than tmac the same way magic is better than jordan


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

I Start Fires said:


> nique is better than tmac


So far in their careers, yes.



> the same way magic is better than jordan


Ditto.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

[email protected] over MJ, Bird > Magic.


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## MRedd22 (Jun 10, 2006)

No way


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