# Draft Buzz 5/15/03



## JustinYoung (Jul 19, 2002)

The latest edition of Draft Buzz is now up. 

Who's in? Who's out? Why did so many players declare? Josh Powell, your 2003 super sleeper? Lots of good stuff in this one, particularly regarding player buyout information. Enjoy.


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## T(he)-MA(gi)C (May 8, 2003)

Nice read.

Thanks


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

I'm glad you guys finally realized that Varejao isn't NBA material yet.

Anyway I just wanted to say that you got the pronunciation wrong.

Darko Milicic for example is pronounced Darko Milichich. You see the "C" in Serbian is always pronounced as a "ch".

Boris Diaw and Michael Pietrus must be wrong. You see the french don't say BO-ris but bo-RIS. 
Therefore Boris Diaw should be pronounced as bo-RIS dee-O.
You see the last syllable of a word is always stronger in french.

Sofoklis Schortsianitis, you got it all wrong (I'm greek so trust me, I know what I'm talking about. The correct pronounciation is 
So-fo-KLIS S-hor-cha-NI-tis.


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JustinYoung</b>!
> The latest edition of Draft Buzz is now up.
> 
> Who's in? Who's out? Why did so many players declare? Josh Powell, your 2003 super sleeper? Lots of good stuff in this one, particularly regarding player buyout information. Enjoy.


Good stuff, as always.

One thing that the guys over at NBADraft.net might want to consider when it comes to this player buyout issue is that there are quite a few teams that will spend the next year or two dodging the luxury tax. A team such as Milwaukee or Seattle, with a payroll right at or near the luxury tax threshold ($51-$52 mil), will, I THINK, actually WANT to draft an Anderson Varejao or a Pavel Podkolzin or a Carlos Delfino, allow that player to continue to develop overseas, and save themselves from having to pay that player first rounder money for a year or two. In the instances of Varejao and Podkolzin, we're talking about very raw players who don't figure to really contribute right away ANYWAY, so it's not a big deal.

However, the only players who these teams can pull this stunt with are players such as Varejao and Podkolzin and Delfino, players who are signed to overseas contracts already. Why? Well, think about it. If the Bucks draft, say, Dwayne Wade in the first round this year, they cannot possibly tell him or their fans that they don't plan on signing him for a year or two in order to save money, that just isn't going to work. They also cannot tell a foreign player who is willing and able to buy out his overseas contract to stay overseas for another year or two, that player will be very upset, the fans will find out about it, and they will be upset, too. Teams that are dodging the luxury tax are obviously going to put a positive spin on their roster moves, and in some instances, most notably with Vin Baker last year, the fans and sportswriters ACTUALLY BUY IT.

Teams don't want fans and sportswriters to think about money, they want fans and sportswriters to believe that every single roster move is made in an attempt to put a better basketball team on the floor. When a nonsensical roster move occurs, fans and sportswriters are generally merely baffled and blow it off. Teams count on fans and sportswriters to do this, you know, they are just like our federal government, they PROFIT from our APATHY and our IGNORANCE. NBA teams, just like the federal government, only get away with garbage (and trading for Vin Baker is GARBAGE) because fans/voters LET THEM GET AWAY WITH IT!

If the Bucks draft an Anderson Varejao, they can tell their fans, "Well, we really love the guy, we think he's going to be the next Dirk Nowitzki, but our hands are tied here, he can't come play for us for at least another year because his foreign team is being really difficult, they won't let us buy him out, but just you wait, when he gets here, he's going to be great!" And their fans will buy it. The Bucks get out of paying a first round pick's contract, they STILL have the RIGHTS to that first round pick (very important), they can let that player develop overseas (where he will almost certainly get way more PT and will therefore develop more quickly), and they can get below the luxury tax threshold and save themselves over $10 mil IN ONE SEASON.

The luxury tax impacts EVERYTHING these days, INCLUDING the draft. We could even see a guy taken as high as the mid-lottery stashed overseas for a couple of years, which is something that I don't think we've ever really seen before (have we?). Toronto is RIGHT THERE on the threshold, and a top five pick will put them over that threshold for good, so they are a pretty good candidate to either a) draft a foreign dude with that top five pick OR (if no foreign dude is worth a top five pick) b) trade down to the late lottery or mid-teens and draft a foreign dude. In both instances, the foreign dude won't suit up for the Raptors for at least another year, maybe two.

Incidentally, teams such as Toronto, Milwaukee, and Seattle could ALSO look into drafting one of these high school kids with a first round pick and instructing that player to go ahead and play a year or two in college before officially beginning his NBA career. They will have no problem putting a positive spin on this--"We don't think you will get any PT with us for a few years, but you'll get plenty of PT in college, plus, college is a wonderful experience, you'll like it"--that the player, fans, and sportswriters will have no problem buying into. This is something that has never been done before (has it?), but teams should look into it, it's a very creative way to not only save money but also to win over fans ("We really feel like an education is important and we are willing to wait on Mr. Outlaw, we are willing to make this sacrifice because we care about Mr. Outlaw not only as a basketball player but as a human being").

In other words, I'd look for Varejao and Podkolzin and Delfino and whoever else to go ahead and keep their names in the draft when they find out that it's really not negatively impacting their draft stock at all. I know this is an odd take on this issue, and you guys are welcome to disagree with me here, but again, the luxury tax is a BIG DEAL, a team like Milwaukee or Seattle is not going to want to allow a player like Sofoklis Schortsianitis, a player who will barely touch the floor as a rookie, to cost them $10-$12 mil next year. By leaving that guy overseas for a year or two, it WON'T cost them $10-$12 mil, PLUS, the player does not have to buy out the bulk of his own overseas contract. Furthermore, if the player ends up totally sucking, the team can simply not bother to ever bring the guy over and save themselves a fair amount of money. This is what happened with Frederic Weis and the Knicks, for instance.

Obvious slots for foreign dudes or possibly HS kids to get taken because of luxury tax concerns:

1-6 Toronto (it will be REALLY INTERESTING to see what happens here, keep an eye on this, I guarantee you that the Raptors will do something odd)
8 Milwaukee
12 Seattle
14 Seattle
17 Phoenix
21 Atlanta
22 New Jersey (this is what happened with Nenad Kristic last year)

If Toronto gets the #1 pick, obviously, they take Lebron James, right? Well, if whoever is drafting at #2 is willing to bail them out on some of their terrible contracts (Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams, Alvin Williams, Lamond Murray), then Toronto could trade down to #2, draft Milicic, and instruct him to stay overseas for another year of "seasoning" (i.e., so Toronto can avoid the luxury tax). If Toronto gets the #2 pick, again, they draft Milicic (anybody who gets the #2 pick will draft Milicic over Carmelo, total no-brainer). IF Toronto gets the #3 pick (Carmelo), then I'd definitely look for them to trade down, to trade the #3 pick along with unwanted payroll for a later pick. I'd also look for Toronto to trade down if they end up drafting at #4, #5, or #6, but they won't get nearly as much for one of those picks as they will get for the #3 pick, obviously. By the way, teams that have expiring contracts who they can trade for some of Toronto's unwanted salary, teams that might jump at the chance to get their hands on a Carmelo Anthony, are Detroit (probably #6 overall) and New York (#9 overall). At the end of this post, there are two possible trades for Carmelo Anthony if you're interested.

Milwaukee at #8 is definitely going to draft a foreign dude and stash him overseas, bank on it. Everybody who is making mock drafts, you need to always have the Bucks taking a foreign dude, because that's exactly what they're going to do with this pick, unless they trade it somehow.

Seattle at #12 and #14, well, I do believe that they will take at LEAST one foreign dude and stash him overseas, they may also take a HS kid (Travis Outlaw?) and stash him in college. OR, they may end up not spending much money on free agents this summer, which will allow them to go ahead and bring these guys over right away if they want. I think they might STILL go ahead and stash them overseas, just to play it safe. Seattle has really shot themselves in the proverbial foot by making some terrible free agent decisions over the past few years (Calvin Booth, terrible, and while they're lucky that Boston bailed them out on Vin Baker, they still had to take on Vitaly Potapenko in order to get that deal done; Jerome James is not exactly earning his keep, either, and he never will).

Phoenix is already over the luxury tax threshold, which means that they will end up paying DOUBLE what the #17 pick is SUPPOSED to make in his first year, which will be $1.0 mil x 2 = $2.0 mil. $2.0 mil isn't much, but it's a lot for a guy who isn't even touching the floor for you. If Phoenix can get a guy who they think can help them win NOW, they won't worry about $2.0 mil, obviously.

Atlanta will likely be in full BLOW IT UP mode, their payroll is ridiculous, they are well over the luxury tax threshold and will save themselves $1.6 mil by stashing their #21 overall pick overseas or in college. Ditto for New Jersey, who cannot possibly expect to get someone who can help them right away at #22.

We could also see these teams looking to trade their 2003 first round picks for 2004 or 2005 first round picks, that's the safest way to avoid paying a rookie contract, obviously.

Two possible Carmelo Anthony trades (IF Toronto gets the #3 overall pick):

The #3 pick, Antonio Davis (three years left on a max deal), and Eric Montross (filler, two years remaining) TO DETROIT FOR the #6 pick, Chucky Atkins (three years remaining but makes 1/3 of what Davis makes), and about $10-$11 mil in expiring contracts (Zeljko Rebraca, Michael Curry, and Hubert Davis). The Pistons may have to spice it up somehow (in order to calm down irate Raptors fans) by throwing in a future first round pick, Tayshaun Prince, or Mehmet Okur.

The #3 pick, Antonio Davis, Alvin Williams (five years remaining, UGH), Jerome Williams (five years remaining, UGH AGAIN), and Lamond Murray (three years remaining) TO NEW YORK FOR the #9 pick, Kurt Thomas (reasonable contract, would obviously start at C for this team), and about $23-$25 mil in expiring contracts (Antonio McDyess, Charlie Ward, Travis Knight). This will be a hard deal for Toronto to turn down, but will be a pretty tough sell on Raptors fans, too, obviously.

Is Carmelo the missing piece to the championship puzzle in Detroit, the terrific star player go-to guy that they seem to lack? I don't know, maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but fans and sportswriters would definitely welcome him as a savior, and I think that this Pistons organization would do a really nice job of nurturing him. New York, great city, Knicks fans are great, but "nurturing" is not the word I would use to describe NYC residents and sports fans. However, there is no question that Carmelo would be a huge hit with Knicks fans and sportswriters, although if he fails to become a superstar (and I see him as more of an Antoine Walker-caliber player, which is really good, but not exactly Hall of Fame material, obviously), well, I don't know. I do know that Knicks fans will spend several seasons believing that this guy is going to eventually lead them to the promised land, though, which is what seem to be the most important thing for Knicks ownership (i.e., suckering their fans to continue to pay an arm and a leg for Knicks tickets).


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## MightyReds2020 (Jul 19, 2002)

Good read RobyG, as always.

Depends on who's Toronto's next coach, I have the feeling that the management does not really gave up on Davis and/or JYD already(but I'm not sure), which means if they get the top 3 picks, they'll keep it. After all, Toronto isn't really a 'small' market and I do think they could effort those not-so-much luxury tax in order to win now. It will be great if someone from Toronto and has some insides share his/her opinions regarding the Raptors' future.


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MightyReds2020</b>!
> Good read RobyG, as always.
> 
> Depends on who's Toronto's next coach, I have the feeling that the management does not really gave up on Davis and/or JYD already(but I'm not sure), which means if they get the top 3 picks, they'll keep it. After all, Toronto isn't really a 'small' market and I do think they could effort those not-so-much luxury tax in order to win now. It will be great if someone from Toronto and has some insides share his/her opinions regarding the Raptors' future.


Antonio Davis turns 35 years old next season, he is not getting any better, he is only getting worse, if you can get rid of that guy, you do it. Jerome Williams had his first non-injury-plagued season in three years this year, he arguably had a career year, so the time to trade this guy is now, his stock will only go down, WAY down when (not if) he gets hurt again.

The Raptors are all about staying under the luxury tax threshold, it's not like we haven't seen this team make luxury tax-influenced decisions before; in fact, both major roster moves last summer were made to get under the threshold. In case you have forgotten, those two moves were a) the decision to let Keon Clark walk (they didn't even make the guy an offer, they couldn't afford it), and b) the draft day trade with the Lakers (they basically traded the #20 pick and a mediocre veteran for the #27 pick and a slightly cheaper mediocre veteran, that move was all about trimming payroll). And they made those moves AFTER a season during which they made the playoffs!

The #3 pick in the draft will make $2.7 mil next season. If they can get a league-appointed doctor to determine that Hakeem Olajuwon is "physically unable to resume playing" late in the 2003-04 season--and that is exactly what that doctor will determine--then his large contract (around $6.4 mil in 2003-04) will not be counted for luxury tax purposes. [Disregard any trade ideas involving the Raptors trading Hakeem this summer, it won't happen, and yes, I realize that some of those trade ideas were MY OWN ideas, I've come to my senses now, Toronto WILL NOT trade Hakeem.] This gets their payroll down to around $52 mil, which is, of course, RIGHT AT the luxury tax threshold. This means that, best case scenario, Toronto CANNOT sign their 2003 first round pick (ESPECIALLY not Carmelo Anthony at $2.7 mil!) and hope to stay under the threshold.

Since Toronto can't really get away with leaving Anthony unsigned for the entire 2003-04 season, and since they can't afford to sign him, that means that they'll need to trade him, and, since his stock is so high (probably higher than it will ever be during his entire career), packaging him with some unwanted longterm salaries in exchange for expiring contracts is a brilliant way for this team to reduce their 2003-04 payroll by around $2 mil or so (enough to avoid the luxury tax) and to have "cap flexibility" by the summer of 2004 (due to the large amount of money in expiring contracts that will be gone forever if they pull off one of those two suggested trades). And, if they end up with a lower 2003 first round pick (#6 from Detroit, #9 from New York, or whatever), they will still have to stash this player overseas or in college for at least a year.

They really have zero incentive to keep together a 25ish win team, fellas. As for the "they lost more player-games to injury than any team in the history of the league" excuse, well, everybody knows that their key players are all injury-prone players, what happened last year will happen again next season, maybe on a smaller scale, but you're still talking about another lottery-bound season.

Toronto is in pretty bad shape right now, there aren't more than 2-3 teams in the league that are in worst shape than they are. Their best player (Vince Carter) cannot stay healthy, he is unwilling to "play hurt," and his teammates (as well as the vast majority of people around the league) have lost faith in him. They have a lot of money tied up in some pretty so-so role players (Alvin Williams, Jerome Williams, Lamond Murray). And then there's Antonio Davis and his terrible contract. Davis clearly is not getting any younger, unbelievable that Toronto gave him that contract at his age a couple of years ago, talk about a poor business decision. Not looking good for Toronto. Plus, they're apparently too cheap to pursue a bigname coach (Paul Silas, Jeff Van Gundy, etc.), they are instead focusing on assistants such as Dwayne Casey, guys who are willing to work for way, way less just to get their foot in the door. Not a good sign AT ALL.

Bottom line is, Toronto can either win 30-35 ballgames and pay the luxury tax or they can win 20-25 ballgames and not pay the luxury tax. Either way, they are going to be a really bad team, so guess which option they will choose? Toronto can avoid the threshold if they get creative this summer, but their fans are NOT going to like it, that's for sure!


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## AdamIllman (May 12, 2003)

uhhhhh..what?


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Roby - 

Why not trade with POR for example? Especially if they land at #3.
A trade of Wallace (1yr left) possibly #23 (though If I were POR I'd prefer not to) for A.Davis (3yrs left), L.Murray(3yrs left) and #3?
You could possibly throw in McInnis(2yrs left) for a Bradley(3yr left) or Montross (2yr left) as a back-up to Alvin (he's better than a washed up Hunter and unproven Alston).

The way I look at it, this provides TOR a realistic chance to compete in the Eastern Conference PLAYOFFS. Re-unites Carter & Wallace (old NC alum). Provides a great 1-2 punch that they have been SORELY lacking since McGrady left. You add in 3rd wheel Mo Pete and that is a good core, and if Wallace doesn't work out, you can let him walk or S& T him to another team. But, Wallace is still young (29), has been an All Star, he would be the perfect #2 option (which he prefers to be) to Carter, and IF they like what he brings, I think they would have a very good shot at re-signing him.

I just don't see the benefit of TOR drafting Milic or Anthony at #3. Carter is what? 29? No matter who they get at #2, it is going to at least take 2-3 years for that player to establish themselves as a legitimate player, and by then what the heck do you do with Carter? Who will be 31-32?, With 3yrs left on his contract & most likely declining in ability? They need to get a solid veteran now, a #2 option to Carter and make an attempt for a playoff run NOW, while Carter & in this case Wallace are still in their prime. They WOULD make the playoffs, and they COULD with a few other moves advance, possibly deep INTO the playoffs. Is anyone going to seriously tell me that BOS duo of Pierce & Walker would be BETTER than Carter & Wallace? Does BOS have a better 3rd option than MoPete? I don't think so. 

I understand Roby that a lot of teams want to avoid the luxury tax, but they also WANT TO WIN TOO. This provides TOR with the best of both worlds IMO, a chance to win NOW, and CAP FLEXIBILTY (by dumping some relatively bad contracts), if things don't work out. What is not to like from TOR point of view? Who ar they going to get better than Wallace, for that package? This deal is too perfect, from BOTH sides IMO not to be done.


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

:topic:



> Originally posted by <b>qwertyu</b>!
> 
> Boris Diaw and Michael Pietrus must be wrong. You see the french don't say BO-ris but bo-RIS.
> Therefore Boris Diaw should be pronounced as bo-RIS dee-O.
> You see the last syllable of a word is always stronger in french.




Not that it really matters but there is no such thing as weak or strong syllabe in French. Everything is pronounced the same.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

Why is Varajeo in the 2004 mock???


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

*roby*

if hakeem's salary isn't counted against the cap we'll be at around $48 mill (please do me a favour and correct me if i'm wrong) not at the luxury tax threshold. this allows room to sign our first rounder no problem and some ultra cheap players. 

i'd love to get rid of AD's contract too but i just don't think its going to happen. JYD is an option- could we get a later draft pick and an expiring contract for him?

with a top 3 pick and a healthy vince carter this team is MUCH better than 25 wins. you've said it yourself many times, the east is getting weaker, not stronger.


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> Why not trade with POR for example? Especially if they land at #3.
> A trade of Wallace (1yr left) possibly #23 (though If I were POR I'd prefer not to) for A.Davis (3yrs left), L.Murray(3yrs left) and #3?
> You could possibly throw in McInnis(2yrs left) for a Bradley(3yr left) or Montross (2yr left) as a back-up to Alvin (he's better than a washed up Hunter and unproven Alston).


I just posted something on the Trailblazers board about how this idea (Carmelo and junk to Portland for Rasheed somehow) makes sense for Toronto, too. Here was my idea:

#3 overall, Antonio Davis (three years remaining), either Alvin or Jerome Williams (five years remaining for both), and Lamond Murray (three years remaining) FOR Rasheed Wallace (expiring contract, can be re-signed for WAY LESS than what he is presently making), Jeff McInnis (two years remaining), and Qyntel Woods (filler).

That's basically the same deal you are talking about, I've only added one of the Williams brothers, Toronto will insist that Portland bails them out on one of these two LONGterm contracts.

Of course, as was mentioned on the Portland board, the chances of Toronto ending up with EXACTLY the #3 pick are pretty slim, which makes all of this trade speculation seem pretty ridiculous. Toronto will probably get a top 4-5 pick, no worse than #6 overall, but who knows which EXACT pick they will get. Still fun to think about!


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> Roby -
> 
> Why not trade with POR for example? Especially if they land at #3.
> ...


carter is not 29, he's 25 or around there and has actually been resting ( ) for a couple of season now. he's as fresh as a daisy if you ask me.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!
> 
> I just posted something on the Trailblazers board about how this idea (Carmelo and junk to Portland for Rasheed somehow) makes sense for Toronto, too. Here was my idea:
> 
> ...


make it JYD, not Alvin, and you'd have a deal for sure. i'd love that trade.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

AW/mccinnis
VC
QW/mopete
sheed/bradley
montross/scrubs.


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> if hakeem's salary isn't counted against the cap we'll be at around $48 mill (please do me a favour and correct me if i'm wrong) not at the luxury tax threshold. this allows room to sign our first rounder no problem and some ultra cheap players.
> 
> i'd love to get rid of AD's contract too but i just don't think its going to happen. JYD is an option- could we get a later draft pick and an expiring contract for him?
> ...


The Raptors' 2003-04 payroll that I'm looking at has them at around $59 mil, and that's BEFORE they sign their draft pick. These numbers may be wrong, though. So you're saying that it's at around $54-$55 mil (before Hakeem's contract is not counted). You may be right. If anybody has some good info on what Toronto's 2003-04 payroll looks like right now, let us know. Obviously, if they can get that bad boy down to $48-$49 mil, it'll be at around $51-$52 mil after signing Carmelo and after Hakeem's contract is not counted. If they need to dump $1-$2 mil in payroll to make sure they get under the threshold, they can always trade either Mo Pete or Michael Bradley to a team with cap room in exchange for a future second round pick.

If my numbers are right ($59 mil payroll next year), then it's not looking good, but if yours are right, then sure, Toronto won't have to cough up their high lottery pick, after all.

WITH a healthy Vince Carter, the Raptors are better than 25 wins, you're right. We'll see how many games Vinsanity plays next year. I'm not rooting against the guy, but I'm pretty skeptical. I'm pretty skeptical that any of those key Raptors players can stay healthy over the course of an entire season, much less ALL or MOST of them! I'm also pretty skeptical about how well Vince and Carmelo can play together. Wing players have a hard time co-existing, as Raptors fans saw happen with Vince and TMac.

I doubt anybody gives you an expiring contract for a JYD. JYD's contract just lasts way too long, he's not all that young, he's a role player, he's injury-prone. Scrappy player, I like the guy, but definitely overpaid.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

*i REALLY hope mine are right.*

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto.htm


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> I doubt anybody gives you an expiring contract for a JYD. JYD's contract just lasts way too long, he's not all that young, he's a role player, he's injury-prone. Scrappy player, I like the guy, but definitely overpaid.


so JYD would only be included in our draft pick trade then? mo pete it is.


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

Well done Roby, very insightful, thought-provoking post.

About your idea of drafting HS players and sending them to college, I like it but there's something I think I have not understood. Isn't it technically illegal to pay a player while he's still playing amateur ball? Or would they not sign a contract and not be paid (i.e. just own the player's rights)?


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Well if the lotto fell as it SHOULD they would be at #3. BUT.....when is the last time that has happened? So it is lkely TOR will not be sitting at #3, but even if they were at #2 they should consider it IMO.

Yep Carter is 26. That is a factor IMO, butI'd still say a Wallace now is better than the POTENTIAL of what Milic or Anthony can become. The dissing of Sheed's abilites is ridiculous on these boards, he is A LOT better than many here give him credit for.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

uggh... i'm gonna vomit.

i don't know where the "definitive" topic for this is, and who got it started, but there are so many outlandish proposals on this board, i can't believe it.

first, the following: lamond murray + antonio davis + j/awilliams + #3 pick (which is by no means certain) for wallace + qyntel woods + #23 pick ("maybe"- and develop him overseas). 

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

whoever suggested this is clearly from another team hoping to pull the wool over the eyes of the raptors and convince THEMSELVES that this is at all realistic. 

has anyone looked at the names of the majors in that deal? say what you want about antonio davis, carmelo anythony is a potential superstar NEXT YEAR. this is not a 5-year project ala jermaine o'neal. 

two, the raptors problem is depth- not the salary cap. you're proposing to deal 4 key components for 1 and a half. and the justification used is that "they can rid themselves of contracts". are you kidding me? why don't we give away all our best players and sign 62 year old scrubs from municipal government beer leagues? i mean, they're "cheaper". teams in professional sports occasionally operate under this mindset, agreed, but they are the exception and not the rule. that trade would undoubtedly put the raps scraping at the bottom of the league with no light at the end of the tunnel. 

three, wallace has a contract that expires next year. some people (typically blazers fans) think the raptors would perceive this as "attractive". are you kidding me!!! you're already making a four-for-one the other way on a roster badly needing depth, and the one you DO get is walking out the door 14 months from now. are you kidding me??? this would do what exactly? clear cap room? for who? who in their god given mind would think of toronto as a lucrative situation after all these bonehead moves???

certainly not rasheed wallace.

folks, this is professional sports. you can't steal talent. people (blazers faithful) are somehow thinking that although THEY don't value wallace the way they did 2/3 years ago, they can fool others into falling for that perception. people are thinking they can get the best of seventeen worlds by dealing wallace and his 15 mill for the # 3 pick, have the toronto raptors ignore the fact that they would be ruined by the trade, have toronto ignore that carmelo anthony might already be the best player in that trade, have toronto pretend like qyntel woods is suddenly the next mcgrady (as portland fans suggest- strange then that they would want to move him and wallace so fast, isn't it...), have toronto ignore the fact that rasheed wallace would be a PR nightmare (for various reasons), have toronto ignore the fact that they'd be throwing away organization pillars who have become important community leaders for the sake of clearing cap room- and clearing cap room for nothing tangible, no less. i mean, you gotta give something up to get something in return. there ain't no free lunch. and this isn't even a FREE lunch. this is toronto PAYING portland to eat their lunch.

fourth, somebody suggested that the raptors should consummate the deal because carter is nearing the end of the road and they need to win now. would you say mcgrady is reaching the end of the road? he has one year of nba experience on carter! carter is a spring chicken- he's 26. he may be oft-injured but he's not terry porter. christ. and my friends, this deal wouldn't even pay off for the raptors in the immediate term- having wallace, carter, mopete and nobody is a far cry from mopete, carmelo, antonio, alvin, carter, lamond and jerome and 19 980 fans on your side. 

the only reason to make this deal would be because grunwald owed his trailblazer fans a favour. the organization in toronto is building a reputation and has a solid fanbase. toronto is also renown for not supporting losers and the business (MLSE) in charge of the raptors and maple leafs is committed to the "W". if they get #3, the business would happily go "over" the cap, even if triples the cost when taxes are considered- especially if it meant a superstar of carmelo anthony's ilk for 6 million (still underpriced). and if we have to talk in financialspeak, making the carmelo investment would appear much cheaper in the long-term than throwing in the towel on the team and suffering abuse publicly & politically, not to mention the major loss of raptors fans 2+ years from now (and season ticket revenues, etc etc etc). 

the luxury tax is no reason to effectively fold a professional sports franchise. it's an inconvenience- it's not a downright nightmare.

fans from other teams have got to look for "trades", not "thefts". antonio davis is not just a throw-in- certainly not from the raptors perspective. sure, he's got a big contract, but on a team needing size, he is absolutely crucial. he's not "filler" as some people have deemed it. and alvin/jerome- yeeessh-- just come to toronto for a week and see if they're not absolutely revered. in fact, we have hopes that alvin will some day lead our team to a championship. he's not perceived "filler" in the minds of anybody around here, either. (and i feel like carmelo anthony is already a raptor. what a hypocrite i am...)

for the last time: the 2003 #3 pick is NOT the typical draft year's #3. don't fool yourselves. this is not mike dunleavy. this is a freshman who led his college squad to the national title. this is a draft-topper who happens to be in the same pool as two other draft-toppers. 

trading the #3 this year for the # 4 is effectively like trading the #1 for the #8 in other years. there is a significant drop-off. he's not gonna be moved for rasheed wallace (who'll be packing his bags at this time next year, anyway).

i mean, seriously- what you think the raptors actually GAIN from that deal?? geez, don't fool yourselves- and don't try to fool me.

(thanx for reading my long rant.)


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Bollocks...you are clueless, plain and simple. Talk about assumptions, your diatribe is full of them.

Anthony a "superstar" next year? You need to back away from his NCAA performance just a little, don't you think? I think Anthony can be a star, maybe a superstar caliber player, otherwise why would I advocate thise deal for POR, but EVEN IF HE DOES, it won't be next year, how laughable is that leap of logic? You do have a perspective on the NBA draft and 1st year players, don't you? Carmelo's TRUE potential won't be realized until AT LEAST 3 years down the road, THAT is when the TRUE IMPACT of him as a player COULD be realized, that is unless you think he is better than McGrady, Kobe and KG. Well is he?????


Yeah your right, Wallace is worthless, maybe he'd be worth AD and JW, POR should feel lucky to get that, right? What PURE GARBAGE. Wallace is a better player now, will be a better player next year and most likely the year after that than Anthony will be. The reason to trade Wallace for Anthony, is POTENTIAL, that OVER VALUED word that causes SO MANY posters on thes boards to say their #4 pick and the rights to C.Bosh are worth SO MUCH MORE than ANY PLAYER outside of Shaq, Kobe. Duncan, McGrady and AI, it just shows you who is REALLY living in fantasy land.

Wallace is an exceptional talent, playing on an exceptionally deep team. He has issues, yes, but not as OVERINFLATED as you seem to imply, he has superb skills, yet frustrates FANS...yes FANS...with what he COULD be, if he had the KILLER INSTINCT that many "superstar" players have. We are talking about a GREAT player, who is not a SUPERSTAR player, and yet he isnt worth a bag of peanuts. I swear, 99% of the posters on these boards are certified IDIOTS. Wallace, Carter and MoPete would be a better trio than Anthony, Carter and MoPete, that is not speculation, that is FACT. Obviously, you greatly dislike Wallace, so be it, you wouldn't do this trade, fine by me, but your reasons are pretty W......E........A.......K. 

BTW I think Wallace probably would re-sign with TOR, for a lower cap figure, unless his 1st year is utter misery. He and Carter have a history, he is from the East coast, and they would be a competitive team. Even if Wallace didn't work out, at $17mil, that is quite a large sum to knock off the cap, and there is no saying they couldn't orchestrate a S & T, however I think he would stay.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

whoa, dude. save your personal insults for somebody else. you don't know me, and i don't know you. nobody is an idiot. i don't care if you suggest qyntel woods for shaquille o'neal- which you might. you're still not an idiot. i don't know enough about you.

now, onto the more important issues. you conveniently left out certain details and semantics entailed in this proposed deal. nothing is black and white- certainly not in basketball. there are traildown effects in trades, and there are many many stakeholders. they all must be considered, along with their respective situations and possibilities.

the raptors are dying in terms of depth. this is a 4 for 1, and the one will likely be leaving next year. you try to simplify it by intimating anthony, carter, mopete not being as strong as wallace, carter, mopete. why do you stop there? why do you stop at the top 3? why don't you go further? 

let me answer that for you, because the "wallace" roster has nothing behind it, nothing. you have one williams, michael bradley and who knows how many other scrubs (plus a healthy lindsey hunter- a contradiction in terms, but still, for the sake of argument...). the "anthony" roster has lamond murray, antonio davis, alvin williams, jerome williams, michael bradley, lindsey hunter, etc. in terms of depth, there is no comparison. please don't be convenient for the sake of supporting your argument. let's not leave out key details.

you also bring up how fans have a tendency to perceive a player like "C.Bosh as worth SO MUCH MORE than ANY PLAYER outside of Shaq" prior to the draft. i addressed this already. i agree with you. but don't try to fool anyone by suggesting that bosh is in the same league as anthony or any of the top 3. there is a significant dropoff and the "all-star" perceptions people have of draft picks may not be blown out of all proportion this year.

and sir, i don't know if you remember t-mac as a rookie. i do. he was awful. he was awful in the purest form. anthony has skills at that age that t-mac couldn't hold a lamp to. he is better than mcgrady at that age, without discussion. carmelo anthony is the best player in america- he just finished year one. his true potential won't be reached for several years, but that doesn't mean he's not terrific already. that only means that he has a chance to be something incredibly special. look over some tape of mcgrady in 97/98 and then come talk to me about where melo is in his development. 

finally, davis and williams (either one) are pillars in the community. this is not a fantasy pool. this is professional sports where a team's effects (for better or worse) are not restricted to the playing surface. to pry davis or williams out of toronto would require much more in return without even paying consideration to talent. the fans pay the billls for the company, the fans write the cheques- it would take awhile to regain their trust after a ludicrous deal such as the one you propose. it may even put the team behind the 8-ball for the foreseeable future. wallace (and his "rep"- i'm not saying it's well deserved or it isn't. i'm just saying people don't care whether it's well deserved or it isn't.) wouldn't do much to mend those wounds.

cheers

(sorry, one more thing. to think that a player will re-sign somewhere because he has a "history" with a teammate is just off-the-wall. have you been watching the free agency markets in the four major pro sports over the past few years? even so, vince and rasheed DON'T have a direct/shared history. they never played together. vince was a freshman when sheed was a rookie. instead, if you were well-versed on the issue, you'd know that rasheed's biggest ties in TO were with alvin williams (from philly). i think they're "best friends". now, in that deal, alvin may be going the other way so i guess it wasn't well thought out on your part.)


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

Good reply, Ballocks, well-argued.


> Originally posted by <b>ballocks</b>!
> ...first, the following: lamond murray + antonio davis + j/awilliams + #3 pick (which is by no means certain) for wallace + qyntel woods + #23 pick ("maybe"- and develop him overseas).
> 
> ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
> ...


The Raptors have a lot of problems. I'm not talking about the salary cap here, I'm talking about the luxury tax. We saw Toronto make two moves last summer that made their team instantly worse: a) letting Keon Clark walk with no compensation, and b) trading the #20 overall pick and a garbage player for the #27 overall pick and a garbage player. Both of those moves were done because of the luxury tax, period. They clearly were not done to improve Toronto's depth!


> ...three, wallace has a contract that expires next year. some people (typically blazers fans) think the raptors would perceive this as "attractive". are you kidding me!!! you're already making a four-for-one the other way on a roster badly needing depth, and the one you DO get is walking out the door 14 months from now. are you kidding me??? this would do what exactly? clear cap room? for who? who in their god given mind would think of toronto as a lucrative situation after all these bonehead moves???
> 
> certainly not rasheed wallace.


The idea is that Rasheed would be re-signed for a much more reasonable price. Nobody is going to give this guy the max. I'm not sure what teams will have cap room next summer, but I doubt they will want to give Rasheed a max contract. Toronto can beat any offer for this guy. Rasheed is not in a position to be picky, he will go wherever the money is.

Rasheed can be re-signed to a deal that is slightly LESS than Antonio Davis' current deal. Now who is the better player? Who is the better bargain?

Trading for Rasheed clears quite a bit of payroll, and this Raptors team is clearly EXTREMELY INTERESTED in clearing payroll as evidenced by last summer's moves.


> folks, this is professional sports. you can't steal talent.


When the Bucks let GP walk this summer, then they have traded Ray Allen and a pretty good first round pick for Desmond Mason. That's stealing talent, and it happened because of the luxury tax. The Magic last summer traded Don Reid and a future CLIPPERS first round pick (terrible organization, so we're talking about a high lottery pick in a few years here) for a second round pick! Again, that's stealing talent, and it happened only because of the luxury tax!


> people (blazers faithful) are somehow thinking that although THEY don't value wallace the way they did 2/3 years ago, they can fool others into falling for that perception. people are thinking they can get the best of seventeen worlds by dealing wallace and his 15 mill for the # 3 pick, have the toronto raptors ignore the fact that they would be ruined by the trade, have toronto ignore that carmelo anthony might already be the best player in that trade, have toronto pretend like qyntel woods is suddenly the next mcgrady (as portland fans suggest- strange then that they would want to move him and wallace so fast, isn't it...), have toronto ignore the fact that rasheed wallace would be a PR nightmare (for various reasons), have toronto ignore the fact that they'd be throwing away organization pillars who have become important community leaders for the sake of clearing cap room- and clearing cap room for nothing tangible, no less. i mean, you gotta give something up to get something in return. there ain't no free lunch. and this isn't even a FREE lunch. this is toronto PAYING portland to eat their lunch.


All I'm saying here is that Toronto may well do some pretty bizarre things this summer that make no sense to their fans in order to get below the luxury tax threshold. If they don't, then good for them, but it's going to cost them a ton of money. I'm just trying to point out why Toronto might be interested in making these sorts of moves.


> fourth, somebody suggested that the raptors should consummate the deal because carter is nearing the end of the road and they need to win now. would you say mcgrady is reaching the end of the road? he has one year of nba experience on carter! carter is a spring chicken- he's 26. he may be oft-injured but he's not terry porter. christ. and my friends, this deal wouldn't even pay off for the raptors in the immediate term- having wallace, carter, mopete and nobody is a far cry from mopete, carmelo, antonio, alvin, carter, lamond and jerome and 19 980 fans on your side.


I agree, Vinsanity's age isn't so much an issue here. However, I think that Toronto fans are kidding themselves if they think this guy is ever going to be the same player that he used to be. I'm not rooting against the guy, but I have pretty low expectations.


> the only reason to make this deal would be because grunwald owed his trailblazer fans a favour. the organization in toronto is building a reputation and has a solid fanbase. toronto is also renown for not supporting losers and the business (MLSE) in charge of the raptors and maple leafs is committed to the "W". if they get #3, the business would happily go "over" the cap, even if triples the cost when taxes are considered- especially if it meant a superstar of carmelo anthony's ilk for 6 million (still underpriced). and if we have to talk in financialspeak, making the carmelo investment would appear much cheaper in the long-term than throwing in the towel on the team and suffering abuse publicly & politically, not to mention the major loss of raptors fans 2+ years from now (and season ticket revenues, etc etc etc).


I am not as sold on Carmelo as most people are, he's nice, but I question his superstar potential, although you clearly disagree. You do a nice job of presenting an argument why trading Carmelo for financial concerns could totally backfire on the organization, though. 


> the luxury tax is no reason to effectively fold a professional sports franchise. it's an inconvenience- it's not a downright nightmare.


You're wrong on this one. Some teams' owners are totally willing to cross the luxury tax threshold in order to put a winner on the court. Toronto's ownership, based on last summer's moves, isn't. And I don't know about the wisdom of keeping together a team that won 25ish ballgames this year.


> fans from other teams have got to look for "trades", not "thefts". antonio davis is not just a throw-in- certainly not from the raptors perspective. sure, he's got a big contract, but on a team needing size, he is absolutely crucial. he's not "filler" as some people have deemed it.


This guy turns 35 next year, he's not getting any younger, his body isn't getting any less banged up, that's a terrible contract, if Toronto can move this guy, they will in a second. What we saw from Davis this season is a preview of what to expect over the next three years.


> and alvin/jerome- yeeessh-- just come to toronto for a week and see if they're not absolutely revered. in fact, we have hopes that alvin will some day lead our team to a championship. he's not perceived "filler" in the minds of anybody around here, either. (and i feel like carmelo anthony is already a raptor. what a hypocrite i am...)


Dude, I know that Toronto fans love The Williams Brothers. It's not that they aren't solid players. They certainly aren't very GOOD players, but they are decent role players. The problem is their longterm contracts. Good god, these two guys are overpaid. Their contracts last until the summer of 2007. That's ridiculous!


> for the last time: the 2003 #3 pick is NOT the typical draft year's #3. don't fool yourselves. this is not mike dunleavy. this is a freshman who led his college squad to the national title. this is a draft-topper who happens to be in the same pool as two other draft-toppers.
> 
> trading the #3 this year for the # 4 is effectively like trading the #1 for the #8 in other years. there is a significant drop-off. he's not gonna be moved for rasheed wallace (who'll be packing his bags at this time next year, anyway).


Yep, significant dropoff between #3 and #4, SIGNIFICANT, no question, but I think that Carmelo is totally overhyped, he'll be good, but I don't think his trade value will ever be any higher than it is right now.


> i mean, seriously- what you think the raptors actually GAIN from that deal?? geez, don't fool yourselves- and don't try to fool me.
> 
> (thanx for reading my long rant.)


It's a nice rant, well-written, good job. I just think that, as a Toronto fan, you are having a hard time accepting the fact that your team is in pretty bad shape, and that not only MIGHT they make bizarre luxury tax-avoiding moves, but they ALREADY HAVE (last summer)! Letting Keon Clark go was a MISTAKE, even if you don't think the guy is ever going to be a star (I certainly don't), you gotta understand that the guy is a valuable commodity, they could've signed-and-traded the dude for something pretty interesting rather than letting him just walk! They let him walk because of the luxury tax. Same deal with that #20-#27 draft day swap, that was all about the luxury tax, not about the actual game of basketball! C'mon, you gotta admit that, right?


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## pharcyde (Jun 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>qwertyu</b>!
> I'm glad you guys finally realized that Varejao isn't NBA material yet.
> 
> Anyway I just wanted to say that you got the pronunciation wrong.
> ...


Are both Diaw and Pietrus French natives, or did they move there? If their names aren't of French origin then they don't follow the same pronunciation rules. By looking at Pietrus' first name, Mickaël, it's obvious that his name isn't French. Diaw doesn't look French, either, but Boris easily could be (it's pronounced bo-rees anyway, not bo-ris). And the last syllable of a word is not always stronger in French.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

thanx for replying, roby.

maybe the misconception lies therein: the draft day deal last year and the keon clark joke. but this does not suggest that MLSE is enslaved to the luxury tax gods. 

the first-round swap last year was a moneysaver- true. but it was done, in my opinion, because the difference between kareem rush and chris jefferies was immaterial. it was not going to cost them wins for the foreseeble future. the roster was full. furthermore, lindsey hunter was sent to TO for tracy murray- the raps ate a contract there in return. it saved them a little, but i'd be wary to think that that one deal paints the picture of a company sitting on its bank books.

the keon clark circumstances were extenuating. he was apparently a locker room distraction. grunwald hinted at this over the course of this past season- something along the lines of "if you thought we let this guy go to satisfy financial issues you're sadly mistaken" (paraphrased). apparently childs and keon had a problem with vince and lenny, and vice versa.

the company that owns the raps is one of the richest in the nba. i think the vancouver grizzlies situation has unfortunately changed the america's perception of canadian franchises. toronto is rich. MLSE is one of its richest owners. they have been on record as saying they're willing to spend as much on the raptors as they are on the maple leafs. that's a telling statement.

they are hardly strapped for cash. i'd put them in the NBA's top 10 in terms of their financial health & backing.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

First off I think Roby explained much clearer than I alluded to, the fact that Sheed's chances of re-signing with TOR, would be FAR greater than him walking to another team, b\c bottom line they could pay him the most $$$. 

Sorry if you don't like it Bollocks, but I am going to tell you your living in fantasy land...b\c...well...you are. BTW, I never called you an idiot, I specifically stated that 99% of the posters are, I never referred to you directly, although I do think your views hold little merit, but whatever, if you are so biased to not see other players for their "true" value, then you are not being impartial. You greatly OVERVALUE Anthony who has Proved NOTHING yet in the NBA, and greatly slander WALLACE who has been an ALL STAR, and remains a VERY GOOD player. Comparing McGrady in his 1st year in the NBA to Carmelo in his 1st year in college, IS A HUGE STRETCH on your part. I think one is just SLIGHTLY harder than the other, don't you? Carmelo has a LONG...LONG way to go to become the player McGrady is, and it isn't going to happen next year, that is just a ridiculous statement. Eventually he may be, but then again he may never reach that level, or worse even come close to it. That is the problem with young players enetering the draft it INCREASES the risk that they may bust out. If Carmelo ends up being just an avergae player, it won't justify his selection at #3. You need to back away from your unabashed love for Melo, I like him a lot to, but at least I am realistic enough to realize, he won't have an immediate SIGNIFICANT effect on his team for at least a few years (probably 3 at the LEAST). Could I be wrong, absolutely, but history shows doesn't reflect that.

As far as benches go, that is just another BAD reason for not acquiring Wallace. Like losing AD and JW are going to significantly cripple TOR??? Huh? Two "star" players will get you further than a particular bench player (let alone JW and a rapidly aging AD, 4yr left on contract and 35, ouch!), EVERYTIME. You don't think they might, ah, sign a free agent? What a concept.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

its not like ballocks is making unreasonable assumptions here, everything he's saying is legit. 

this trade, although it might be the best move for the organization, does leave the team pretty naked in terms of depth with no center, maybe no pg. however, ridding ourselves of those contracts while picking up a dominant (and i do think he'd be pretty dominant in toronto as the second option) post player is pretty tempting.

bottom line, toronto doesn't have to worry about signing their pick this year- its not going to be a problem (did you check out my numbers roby?). 

as for carmelo having more tools than mcgrady when he came into the league, i'd agree completely. we're not talking about the player tmac has worked himself into. melo will contribute next season and will become a very good player in the future, he's got a great attitude and work ethic.


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>pharcyde</b>!
> 
> 
> Are both Diaw and Pietrus French natives, or did they move there?


Both are born and raised in France, their parents are French too. Actually Diaw's mother (her name is Isabelle Riffiod) is the greatest French female basketball player. 



> By looking at Pietrus' first name, Mickaël, it's obvious that his name isn't French.


Believe or not, Mickaël is a very common first name for boys in France



> Diaw doesn't look French, either, but Boris easily could be (it's pronounced bo-rees anyway, not bo-ris)


LOL Just out of curiosity, what does a Frenchman look like?


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> bottom line, toronto doesn't have to worry about signing their pick this year- its not going to be a problem (did you check out my numbers roby?).


As it turns out, SkywalkerAC, your numbers were too low, and mine were too high.

Your numbers:

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto.htm

The numbers I'm looking at:

http://www.nbazone.net/teams/View_Salary.asp?TId=9

Your payroll: $55.1 mil (Chris Jefferies' contract is missing, add it!)

My payroll: $56.5 mil (N'Dyiae's and Huffman's contracts both need to be subtracted)

Subtract Hakeem's $6.4 mil (which the league will do late in the 2003-04 season, just in time to get this amount removed for luxury tax purposes) from your numbers, and the taxable payroll is $48.7 mil. Subtract $6.4 mil from my numbers, and the taxable payroll is $50.1 mil.

As it turns out, in both instances, the Raptors are not going to be able to stay below the luxury tax threshold AND afford to pay the rookie salary of a top three pick ($3.3 mil for Lebron, $3.0 mil for Donnie Darko, $2.7 mil for Carmelo). Remember, Toronto is going to have to add 2-4 minimum salary guys to the payroll simply to fill out the 12-man roster. An undrafted rookie still costs Toronto $370,000, so we're talking about at LEAST an additional $0.7 mil here, and probably more.

What we COULD see happen is this trade right here:

Lindsay Hunter (expiring contract, $3.3 mil) and a future (2004?) Raptors first round pick to a team with some cap room (either Denver, Utah, or the Clips?) for a future second round pick.

This makes $3.3 mil disappear from the payroll, which is enough IN BOTH INSTANCES to allow Toronto to sign that first round pick, even if it's Lebron, and still stay below the threshold. Of course, we could be talking about a lottery pick here, so this deal could come back to haunt them. But would it haunt them as much as trading away Carmelo? Probably not!

I can totally see a team with some remaining cap space making this move. Denver and Utah and the Clips are your three best bets, because I can't imagine that San Antonio and Miami don't both use every last penny of their cap room this summer. Toronto is in such bad shape, they have such a good chance of a repeat 25-30 win season next year (so many things could go wrong with this team AGAIN, you know), that I think any of those three teams right there (Denver, Utah, and the Clips) would gladly pay Hunter's $3.3 mil salary if they get a 2004 top 6-8 pick out of the deal, don't you? A 2004 top 6-8 pick is more important to Kiki Vandeweghe than, say, Jumaine Jones (i.e., a free agent who should cost right around what Hunter will make next season). Plus, Denver made this same sort of trade last summer with Orlando.

In any event, Toronto will definitely be forced to do something that will not make their fans happy this summer if they want to stay under the luxury tax threshold. And, despite Ballocks' insistence that Toronto is owned by some extremely rich and generous people, I will be awfully surprised if we don't see a luxury tax-dodging move this summer by Toronto. Trading Lindsay Hunter and their 2004 first round pick for a second round pick obviously makes WAY more sense than all of these Carmelo suggestions, obviously. But it still sucks.

In other words, if Toronto does not HAVE to trade their 2003 first round pick--and it's looking like they WON'T if they make that suggested deal with either Denver, Utah, or the Clips--they won't. However, Toronto will NOT spend any money on free agency this summer beyond the absolute minimum. I'd definitely look for them to do what Boston did last summer, i.e., fill out their roster with super-duper cheap first year guys (and I wouldn't count on any of them faring as well as J.R. Bremer did this season), although if they can afford to bring back Rafer Alston, I think they will. He'll get another minimum salary deal, I think, around $690,000 next season for a guy entering his fifth season in the league. Voshon Lenard, NO SHOT at coming back, he's due to make NO LESS than $940,000 next year, too rich for Toronto's blood, believe it or not. They will definitely be filling out the roster with guys with VERY LITTLE NBA experience in order to save money.


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## pharcyde (Jun 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>starvydas</b>!
> 
> 
> Both are born and raised in France, their parents are French too. Actually Diaw's mother (her name is Isabelle Riffiod) is the greatest French female basketball player.
> ...


I know Michael is a common first name in France, just not with the same spelling as Pietrus' name. And in France, Michel (I'm pretty sure that's the way they spell it there) is pronounced like the female version in America, Michelle.

When I said Diaw doesn't look French, I meant the name.


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>pharcyde</b>!
> 
> 
> I know Michael is a common first name in France, just not with the same spelling as Pietrus' name.


Not that it really matters but trust me, Mickael (the way it is written in Pietrus' first name) IS a common name in France. Michael (the English version with "ch" instead of "ck") on the other hand is almost never used. 




> And in France, Michel (I'm pretty sure that's the way they spell it there) is pronounced like the female version in America, Michelle.


That's absolutely right.



> When I said Diaw doesn't look French, I meant the name.


Sorry I did not understand your sentence this way.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

*roby*

i don't think there's any way in hell that toronto gives up their draft pick next year. as good as the raptors COULD be, i think GG will be very wary of another weak season as you are. this team is horribly short on young talent, this and next years' draft picks are essential. 

couldn't mo pete be used in a similar salary dropping maneuver? 

i do think you're wrong about this ownership group, they can afford to take one year of luxury tax for the good of the franchise. this is not a small market nor a donald sterling we're talking about here.


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## pharcyde (Jun 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>starvydas</b>!
> 
> 
> Not that it really matters but trust me, Mickael (the way it is written in Pietrus' first name) IS a common name in France. Michael (the English version with "ch" instead of "ck") on the other hand is almost never used.
> ...


Well since you're from France (or at least that's what's listed as your location) I'll take your word for it. I'd just never heard or seen the name like that before (my experience with the French language don't extend beyond four years of high school french, though).


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

If Diaw doesn't sound like a french name what does?

Diaw sounds as french as possible.
Mickaël is also french. It even has an accent and isn't pronounced Michael. The A and E are sperately pronounced. That's what the two points on the ae mean.


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