# The Official What will happen to Jamal Crawford this off-season thread.



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I think the most likely scenerio is that Crawford will be a clipper. I know they just got livingston , but the kid is clearly not ready and being that he is 6'8 he may wind up guarding 2 guards anyway.

the 2nd most likely scenerio in my opinion is that he winds up a knick either by sign and trade(shandon anderson) or thomas finds some team with cap room as a 3rd party team and he gives them a couple of ending contracts(mutumbo and o.harrington seem like the most likely candidates) for their trouble after they have been shut out of the free agent market for a year or so (the 2001 draft was a much stronger draft anyway)

and number 3 the bulls either sign him to a deal after matching someone else's offer or JC just accepts the qualifying offer and becomes unrestricted next year.

all other scenerios imo opinion like the nuggets or suns or some other team with cap room looking for guard help coming after him after they failed to get their primary target(kobe)to me seem possible but unlikely .

its only about 5 more days to the free agent period starts get your predictions in now.


----------



## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

I think the most likely situation is that he will walk. The next would be signing to the Knicks for too much. The next would be signing an offer sheet with the Bobcats for the MLE and the Bulls match it! :laugh:  :sigh:


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Electric Slim</b>!
> I think the most likely situation is that he will walk. The next would be signing to the Knicks for too much. The next would be signing an offer sheet with the Bobcats for the MLE and the Bulls match it! :laugh:  :sigh:


when you say walk ...do you mean you dont think the bulls will give him a QO?


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Electric Slim</b>!
> I think the most likely situation is that he will walk. The next would be signing to the Knicks for too much. The next would be signing an offer sheet with the Bobcats for the MLE and the Bulls match it! :laugh:  :sigh:


But the Bobcat can offer more than the Knick. All Isaiah can offer is the MLE. Some other team will have to offer more than that to make the Knick a player for S&T. If the MLE is all anyone offers, then I believe Crawdaddy remains a Bull.


----------



## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

It's kind of a pity to let him (and Fizer) go for nothing, but I think he should go because he and Gordon too redundant. Hence my reticence about the Gordon pick...

A Crawford, Hinrich, Gordon backcourt would be too much of a defensive liability IMO and there would not be enough minutes to play a big defensive 2 in that rotation.

Ideally we would S&T Crawford for a bigger 2/3 defensive type player (SJax?). 

I really hate the idea of letting Crawford go for nothing, because it, in effect, deminishes the utility of the Gordon pick.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> But the Bobcat can offer more than the Knick. All Isaiah can offer is the MLE. Some other team will have to offer more than that to make the Knick a player for S&T. If the MLE is all anyone offers, then I believe Crawdaddy remains a Bull.


dont forget thomas can always try to convince a team to use their cap space to facilitate a deal worth more than the MLE.

if the kings can convince a big rival like the spurs to do it so that they could get brad miller from the pacers , if the deal is right why would anyone turn thomas down?


----------



## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I think the Bobcats go after him pretty hard. No matter what talking the Knicks do, they can offer no more than the MLE. I would tend to think Pax matches that. I don't see Jamal as a clipper mainly because if he fancies himself a PG, why would he volutarily go to a team that just drafted the next Magic Johnson or Penny Hardaway? Charlotte wouldn't necessarily be a bad option for him. He's get to run the point and share the spotlight with Okafor. Charlotte can offer him more than the MLE right now. It's a question of how much would Bickerstaff offer and would Pax match?

As an aside, I thought I read in one of the Chicago papers that the Bulls have already extended a Qualifying Offer to Jamal.


----------



## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

Drafting Gordon and letting Crawford goes doesn't really get us anywhere, unless Gordon ends up that much better then Crawford. But even still, I'd rather run the three of them, and bring Gordon off the bench, because that means less Pargo.

So if we can resign him, why not.
Though I don't know what Pax is thinking on it, I'm sure he will if its not too high, but who knows what Isiah or the Clippers could throw at him.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

a sign and trade would be great. But it wont happen. There has NEVER been a sign and trade of a RFA in the history of the NBA. Too complicated because of BYC issues

My guess is Jamal will play for the Knicks. Isiah wants to frontload a contract to him that pays him alot at the beginning and nothing at the end. 

If Jamal stays a Bull, thats fine as well. Lets remember that he has beaten down any competition he has had since he has been a Bull and it wouldnt shock me if he emerges as the best guard we have. 

Denver is also another possibility

Jamal hates LA and his sister has been adamant that Jamal wont even talk to the Clips


----------



## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

How can the knicks front load a contract? I don't believe they can even take a 6 year MLE deal with standard 10% increases and then flip the payments. IE Jamal would make $7.5 mil the first year (or whatever that amount is) and then decreasing 10% every year for six years. That would mean the Knicks were exceeding the MLE in the first year and I don't believe the CBA allows for that.

I have a hard time with Denver simply because they're set at PG. The picked Jameer Nelson and moved him because they didn't need another PG.

Atlanta, Charlotte or the Bulls. That'd be my guess.


----------



## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

I have always said JC will not only be back next year but will be starting on opening night. Paxson can match his salary and unless he gets an offer really high he will be in chicago.

Now i just don't think Bernie Bickerstaff will put 7 million dollars a year for 5 or 6 years (around 42 million) on the table for JC. Bernie was a hard nose defensive minded coach and he has been very carefull not to take on big contracts unless the player was a star. Just see who he pick last tuesday.

Denver has a PG, and no way does Sterling put 42 mil on the table and Jerry sloan will never go after JC. The only teams with interest in JC are over the cap. JC will get a contract equal to the MLE for 4 or 5 years and he will be on the bulls next year. Now after he lose his BYC who knows but he will be on the team next year IMO.

david


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Crawford will be a Bull next season. Bulls will match any offer he gets from another team.


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> My guess is Jamal will play for the Knicks. Isiah wants to frontload a contract to him that pays him alot at the beginning and nothing at the end.


I don't see that ever happening.

Atlanta, Charlotte, Phoenix, Utah or Denver are going to give him more than the MLE.

It's not like Jamal would be a great fit with Marbury, Houston and TThomas.

Isiah Thomas wants EVERYONE. Rasheed, Jamal, Miles, Rodney White, Walker etc.


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> dont forget thomas can always try to convince a team to use their cap space to facilitate a deal worth more than the MLE.
> ...


What does Isaiah have that any other team wants? ....to convince them to open up the purse for more than the MLE? Likely, to do that, he'd give up more than he got back.

Now if Isaiah could convince another team to make a higher offer so that we are forced to explore S&T, he may have options. How does he convince them to do that? ...further, what team would do this. Remember, they're on the line for the salary if the Bull decides to walk away from the table.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> a sign and trade would be great. But it wont happen. There has NEVER been a sign and trade of a RFA in the history of the NBA. Too complicated because of BYC issues
> 
> My guess is Jamal will play for the Knicks. Isiah wants to frontload a contract to him that pays him alot at the beginning and nothing at the end.
> ...


Rlucas i did forget Jamal hates L.A. but money has a way of getting people to face things they wouldn't ordinarily do , he'll talk to them anyway if for no other reason than to give him more bargaining power with other teams.

i dont think you can frontload an MLE deal so i am assuming you are along the same lines that i am that Isiah may try to use another teams cap to make a deal.


----------



## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

Alt has a PG and just drafted there players that play the SG/SF, Bernie Beckerstaff is old school and will never draft a player that does not play serous D, PHx has a PG and joe johnson at SG, Denver has MIller and seriously Jerry Sloan will never take on JC. Those two will never get along. If you don't play D sloan puts you on the bench.

david


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> i dont think you can frontload an MLE deal so i am assuming you are along the same lines that i am that Isiah may try to use another teams cap to make a deal.


How would a deal like this work? I can't even conceive of a workable deal that another team would find worthwhile.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> What does Isaiah have that any other team wants? ....to convince them to open up the purse for more than the MLE? Likely, to do that, he'd give up more than he got back.
> ...


according to hoopshype the knicks have roughly 12 million $ in ending contract in the names mutumbo , harrington trybanski and amechi , and gouping of these players could given to a team as filler and depth while a team attempts to hold on to their cap space another year and get into the free agent market of 2005 which will have its share of big names in it. the following season they have over 30 mil in ending contracts(penny , tim thomas and mohammed)

from a standpoint of cap space the knicks will never be under themselves but could help any number of teams do it and that is a valuable commodity in itself.

i could see denver, ,charlotte, utah , san antonio, the clippers ,warriors orlando even new jersey who is looking to cut down on salary. there are 4 other teams who are under 40 mil in salary i didn't name who may just want to enter into next years FA market and taking some of the knick ending contract would do it for them.


----------



## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

I'd guess he might be a Bobcat - they can offer the most and have NO pg on their roster.

I sure hope we don't lose him for nothing - although I know those S&T senario's r not easy - I still believe if all parties want it to go down , it will.


----------



## djsmokyc (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> according to hoopshype the knicks have roughly 12 million $ in ending contract in the names mutumbo , harrington trybanski and amechi , and gouping of these players could given to a team as filler and depth while a team attempts to hold on to their cap space another year and get into the free agent market of 2005 which will have its share of big names in it. the following season they have over 30 mil in ending contracts(penny , tim thomas and mohammed)
> ...


I don't know how ending contracts help NY make an offer more than the MLE. The only teams that could sign Jamal for more than the MLE are the Bulls and teams who are under the cap by more than the MLE. If another team (say a team under the cap) signs Jamal, they couldn't trade him to the Knicks until December 15.

Are you suggesting that the Bulls would S&T Jamal to the Knicks in a 3-way deal where one of the other teams gets an ending contract in exchange for sending a player to the Bulls?


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> according to hoopshype the knicks have roughly 12 million $ in ending contract in the names mutumbo , harrington trybanski and amechi , and gouping of these players could given to a team as filler and depth while a team attempts to hold on to their cap space another year and get into the free agent market of 2005 which will have its share of big names in it. the following season they have over 30 mil in ending contracts(penny , tim thomas and mohammed)


Now take it a step further and remember that JC will be subject to BYC rules. I'm not sure the math here, but I gather that we can only trade him for roughly half of what he'll make. What can they offer us that makes it worth it to us to accept their trade proposal? There's no such thing as a "hostile takeover" in the NBA where the Knick can force us to trade Jamal without compensation. If he is intent on trading for Jamal, we aren't giving him away for nothing, but for something.

Are you suggesting that another team will sign him outright away from us, we will refuse to match, and then New York will trade that other team a bunch of washed up expiring contracts for Jamal?

We have as many washed up expiring contracts as the Knicks. Why not just trade them to those same teams now and skip the middle man?

This is just too complicated to happen. Nor does it make much sense. Can you give me a specific scenario where this makes sense?

Again, I can't imagine it.


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bullet</b>!
> 
> I'd guess he might be a Bobcat - they *can* offer the most and have NO pg on their roster.


But "can" & "will" are tro very different words. Where has the Bobcat shown any sign that they are willing to spend any money? If they were, Walker and/or Stackhouse would already be in the pen. The Bobcat made it clear after the expansion draft that they would look for a veteran PG to run the team, but that the face of the franchise would be acquired through the draft. Right now, Okafor is the highest paid player on that roster.

What indication is there that they will now turn around and offer more than $5 million for the services of Jamal Crawford? 

Doesn't make sense.


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> But "can" & "will" are tro very different words. Where has the Bobcat shown any sign that they are willing to spend any money? If they were, Walker and/or Stackhouse would already be in the pen. The Bobcat made it clear after the expansion draft that they would look for a veteran PG to run the team, but that the face of the franchise would be acquired through the draft. Right now, Okafor is the highest paid player on that roster.
> ...


i may be imagining this, but i swear that during draft night when questioned via video conference about the need for a PG on the team, ol' Bernie said Jamal Crawford was someone they were _highly interested in._ then he smiled like the cat who swallowed the canary. 

i wish i had tivo'd it but i didn't. darn. 

i think they will throw some serious cash at jamal and next year we will have many, many threads dedicated to Jamal&Emeka versus Kirk&Eddy.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> Now take it a step further and remember that JC will be subject to BYC rules. I'm not sure the math here, but I gather that we can only trade him for roughly half of what he'll make. What can they offer us that makes it worth it to us to accept their trade proposal? There's no such thing as a "hostile takeover" in the NBA where the Knick can force us to trade Jamal without compensation. If he is intent on trading for Jamal, we aren't giving him away for nothing, but for something.
> ...


just concentrating on the knicks alone dealing for Jc would be easy .

they could use a 3rd team to absorb 5 mil.(mutumbo) in an ending contract and send the bulls ...a player making roughly what JC makes now like othella harrington whom the bulls briefly were interested in anyway around the trade deadline .

so the knicks could send mutumbo to lets say utah(who are losing ostertag and could use a stopgap) and harrington to chi. and chi. signs JC to a 3 yr. min deal with 1st season within 10% of 7.6 mil, which could be anywhere from 6.9 to 8.3( idoubt JC would turn this down)

or if the trade exception is enabled for fizer it could be a straight up deal for shandon anderson who make 7.3 next season and that is perfect considering he is , a defender/slasher type pax has expessed wanting plus JC and fizer's exception combine for 7.25 mil well withing the 10% allowable range for a deal

its not that hard and quite honestly GM's are supposed to do this for a living


----------



## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

NY post related article to the Jamal Knicks relationship

http://nypost.com/sports/knicks/17629.htm


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> i may be imagining this, but i swear that during draft night when questioned via video conference about the need for a PG on the team, ol' Bernie said Jamal Crawford was someone they were _highly interested in._ then he smiled like the cat who swallowed the canary.


I didn't see this. Also, this would be tampering.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Crawford should do everything he can to avoid resigning with the Bulls. If he takes a 1 year QO he deserves to be kicked in the head. He will not start now that we have Hinrich and Gordon, regardless of whether he deserves to. He's been through this song and dance too many times to not know what's going on.

He is simply not wanted by this organization and it would him(but not my Bullies) to go some place else. Any place else.


----------



## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

I think people shouldnt think just because a team has a pg that they wouldnt want to add Crawford .

He can play both backcourt positions so you instantly add backcourt depth .Dre Miller is a excelllent post up pg but Leonard couldnt handle the ball or pass well enough to have them take advantage of this last year .

I think the Pistons showed us what a team that has a lot of playmakers could do they were not Hof players but they had 3-4 guys who could pass,shoot,handle the ball very well for their positions .

The teams with cap room knowing the position the Bulls are in could very easily offer a signing bonus like the one the Nuggets gave Miller last summer .

Crawford salary is 5.5 with a 2 million bonus paid upfront meaning 7.5 this year but next year it woulld only be 5.5-5.7 .Would the Bulls be willing to pay the luxury tax to keep him ?

This is the Bulls FIRST TIME in the situation under the current Cba while other teams have been through it 2-3 times already .Is Paxosn ready to step up his game and participate ?


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> just concentrating on the knicks alone dealing for Jc would be easy .
> ...


Let's assume the Fizer money does not exist until we see some confirmation from someone official.

I'm not good with trades, so correct me if I do this wrong:

*New York Trades*
Dikembe Mutombo -- $4.5 million
Othella Harrington -- $3.1 million

*New York Receives*
Jamal Crawford -- _roughly $7.6 million_

*Utah Trades*
(Nobody)

*Utah Receives*
Dikembe Mutombo -- $4.5 million

*Chicago Trades*
Jamal Crawford -- _roughly $7.6 million_

*Chicago Receives*
Othella Harrington -- $3.1 million

------------------------------------------

I'll assume this can be done. Why does each team do it?

*Utah* Has Curtis Borchardt, Jarron Collins, & Mikki Moore all on their roster already, plus an opportunity to resign Ostertag. All of these centers are younger and performed better than Dikembe this season. Why do they want to add $4.5 to their payroll just to help the Knick? If they felt like they really needed a center, they had Pavel, whom they immediately traded to Dallas.

*Chicago* Has AD, JYD, Tyson, Austin -- heck, even Linton Johnson III -- all at PF. Why would they want to add Harrington, too? Better to let Crawdaddy walk than accept $3.1 in salary we don't need and can't use. 

*Knicks* Get Crawford and give up two bad contracts.

I can see what's in it for the Knicks. Can't see why either other team would participate.


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> I think people shouldnt think just because a team has a pg that they wouldnt want to add Crawford .
> 
> ......
> ...


I'm not sure what the last paragraph means. Do you mean paying the luxury tax? As far as I know, no one has had to pay it yet, but *Dan Rosenbaum!* would know better than I do.

I believe Pax will match anything in the $5 million range, regardless of "signing bonus". If he won't, thn it's likely any team can get Crawdaddy, because $5.5 million is not a lot higher than the MLE.

Now, teams with cap. Who are they? I should know, but I don't. I'm assuming based on last seasons salaries that those teams might be LAClipp, Utah, Denver, San Antonio, Phoenix, Charlotte. Does anyone know for sure how much room each of these teams has under the cap?

These are the teams we need to worry about. For how many of these is getting a guard (PG *or* SG) their priority? These are the teams we need to worry about, not the Knick. If one of these teams makes an offer, then we have the ability to turn to Isaiah and ask him what he's willing to do to make an S&T worth our while.


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> I didn't see this. Also, this would be tampering.


you know it very well may have been the announcer "putting words into his mouth" kinda thing...it was a long night so i don't know how it exactly was phrased. but i do recall a bobcat/jamal thing at some point.

anywho...i still think/predict that jamal will be a bobcat regardless.


----------



## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what the last paragraph means. Do you mean paying the luxury tax? As far as I know, no one has had to pay it yet, but *Dan Rosenbaum!* would know better than I do.
> ...


I wasnt talking about the luxury tax  

I meant the first time weve had a restricted free agent hit the market .No one else has made it this far :laugh: 

Weve either bought them out ,not picked up their option ,traded them before they hit fa .This is unchartered territory for this franchise and its Gm .

I must say about our cap situation other teams know that the Bulls have taken on another guaranteed contract with the #7 without moving any of the other contracts .So in all likelyhood 6mil match for jamal + full Mle + vet exception = luxury tax land .

Are the Bulls gonna pay that is the question that all the gms wanting jamal will be looking to gamble on .


----------



## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

I can see a deal centering around Jamal for Shandon Anderson and let's say Dermarr Johnson. Gives the Bulls some depth at the wing, and brings in a veteran presence who will play defense. Johnson still has some potential.


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> Are the Bulls gonna pay that is the question that all the gms wanting jamal will be looking to gamble on.


Same question we've been going on about at some length, too!



I'd gamble that we'll pay slightly more than the MLE to keep him.

Thanks for clearing up the other. I guess with JK at the helm he always tied everyone into a decision before he let the market set the value. Either he paid or he shipped them out. I'm actually thinking I like this new way better.

Also, seems like everyone in the Bull front office has been awfully conifdent this off-season. Pax and BJ grinning and jooking on the talk shows, almost being coy from the way I've heard it described. That just doesn't seem like the demeanor of a group of guys who are afraid to lose someone. I like to think that it speaks of confidence in their ability to get their guys signed. The draft was a good sign. Let's hope the month of July goes as well.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i very much disagree with the statement that the jazz centers outperformed mutumbo .ostertag was the best of the lot.

borchardt's season was a train wreck he accomplishhed nothing annd played all of 16 games to meager results

collins also had a poor season , to put it in prospective he avg. 8.8 rebounds per 48 min. ...ak-47 and harpring eached avg. 10 and chang ...mutumbo avg. 14 which is better than any center on the jazz roster(ostertag did the best at 12.9.)

mikki moore was a non factor playing less per game than even borchardt

and when you even things out and make it per 48 min.(ostertag player 4 more min. a game.) between ostertag and mutumbo . deke outscored him, outrebounded, out shot, him from the field and the line and, blocked more shots.

so yes i think utah does this deal . if for no other reason than to have a insurance policy on ostertag(who is a FA) or borchardt.

the knicks do the deal for JC and the bulls get some depth at the 3-4 position and if they dont really want othella they can deal him, because his contract is not bad its very reasonable and its ending after the season.


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> I can see a deal centering around Jamal for Shandon Anderson and let's say Dermarr Johnson. Gives the Bulls some depth at the wing, and brings in a veteran presence who will play defense. Johnson still has some potential.



Yeah, that's a super deal if we have no intention of improving our team.

Why take on the same amount of money for a significantly worse player?

I mean, it seems we have 2 options:
A) Sign Jamal and hopefully improve, spend whatever it (reasonably) takes to keep him.
B) Don't sign him to save money.

I don't understand how trading him for a lesser player makes us better? If we are going to throw 5.5 mil or whatever out there, then let's at least get the best possible player for that price.


----------



## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

There will be no sign and trades .. certainly not for Shandon Andersen 

If Jamal goes it will be because he is not a basketball fit in Chicago and we certainly won't be taking on salary back - which means it is for commercial reasons as much as basketball reasons 

New York offer him the MLE in a front loaded deal which will get him around $5.9M starting 

Charlotte won't be offering beyond that 

Paxson then has to make a decision on whether Macijauskas can help this team more or whether Jamal can help this team more

For the fact that Jamal will cost $3M more per than Macas and we have Macas.. I would expect Paxson to let Jamal go and get greater spread in the MLE money _ if he considered the structure and fit of the team was more benefited by doing this _

I would be looking for Macijauskas , Eric Williams and Wesley Person for the money that would otherwise be spent on Jamal Crawford 

Eric Williams covers Deng at the 3

Person is insurance against pure shooter Macas ( if he doesn't pan out or takes time to adjust ) and these guys will sit behind Hinrich and Gordon as the 3rd guard / pure shooter 

Bulls need pure shooters 

Duhon will be a defensive guard back up and Pargo the more offensive shooting point guard back up 

I just don't see why Jamal would be retained when will clog the channels and when clearly Pax wants to go in a different direction

Jamal will sign outright with New York or Charlotte for $5M to $6M starting ... and we will let him


----------



## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

its gonna be funny when Gordon and Majas struggle next year and some people are asking for Crawford back. I say we keep Crawford and sign the best sf out there. Not necessarily a shooter or a scorer just a guy who will play solid d and can hit the open shot. Marquis daniels and Rasaul butler come to mind.


----------



## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

Let's look at the teams with caproom who would have a shot at signing Jamal for more than the MLE


Detroit-Detroit will NOT pursue Crawford. 

Atlanta-If they trade Terry, possibly. As of right now, they have Terry at the point and their rookies to give minutes at the 2 spot. If they keep Terry, I don't see them going after Jamal.

Charlotte-I heard on the expansion draft that Bickerstaff loves big guards. A definate possbility if JC is ok with going to a team that will lose a ton of games again. 

San Antonio-Ditto Detroit.

Denver-Hard to tell here. Jamal certainly won't be their first choice. I do have a hard time believing they would offer more than the the 38 million dollar max MLE offer other teams can do.

Utah-Does not fit their style. Can't see this at all.

LA Clippers-If they didn't draft Livingston, I would say maybe. Even though he's better than Livingston now, why would Crawford go to another team where he's going to have to look over his shoulder from the day he signs with the team? I see them re-signing Q so he won't be playing any 2 guard in LA. Plus didn't Jamal not like it in LA when he used to live there?

Phoenix-Like Denver, they will look elsewhere at least at first. Nash might be headed here. If they don't get him, do they risk a signficant part of their caproom on Jamal instead of saving it until next year if they strike out? Plus they are high on Barbosa. 

IMO, I really don't see a potential deal here that far exceeds the MLE offer (with increases) where we would have to let him walk for nothing. I see Charlotte as the front runner with Atlanta IF they trade Terry. I can see a possibility in Denver but I can't see them offering more more than the MLE. How much would Charlotte be willing to offer? 42 million most? That's what Maggette got last summer. Could he handle going to another team that is not even close to winning for a few million dollars more? Now that I look at this, I feel pretty good about Jamal being back next season. That is, if Pax is going to match a full MLE offer.


----------



## thunderspirit (Jun 25, 2002)

nice analysis, ChiBulls.

Phoenix makes some sense, but only if they decide they're out of the Kobe sweepstakes and if Nash is not a possibility. but is JC willing to wait on that?

Utah might surprise us too, considering they signed Terry to an offer sheet last year. in fact, if there's the possibility of a S&T, it might be there with as far under the cap as the Jazz currently are. 

as has been pointed out here a lot, there's never been a RFA S&T deal. however, it's possible that there will be a first time. maybe that first time is Craword. :whoknows:


----------



## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBulls2315</b>!
> Let's look at the teams with caproom who would have a shot at signing Jamal for more than the MLE
> 
> 
> ...


I see your point but remember it only takes one team to drive the price up .  

Also last year 90% of anyone on a message board thought the Nuggets would sign arenas and he was their first choice and he was the obvious one .

They go get Miller for less and make the playoffs.

I cant wait to see how this all plays out


----------



## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

You guys are right. A team could surprise us and it only takes one team to drive up the price. I've thought from last mid-season that Crawford would get a similar deal to what Corey Maggette received last summer. 6 years, 42 million. I expect anywhere from the 38 million to that 42 number to be offered to him now. 

If Pax would match the full MLE offer, he mise well match that 42 number if he gets offered that. That's only what, 10% more? I hope he signs him so we can at least trade him off later if he's not in the future plans.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBulls2315</b>!
> Let's look at the teams with caproom who would have a shot at signing Jamal for more than the MLE
> 
> 
> ...


in truth there are plenty of teams looking for pg help and any number of teams that could scoop JC up and it doesn't have to be a team under the cap for instance it is a virtual certainty that if dallas were to lose nash they would not enter this next season with with just devin harris on their roster and if it took more than the MLE to get a player they would find a way , the same goes for port. and new york , some teams dont care , some teams think it will take just one more player to put them over the top and will overpay to get them , or maybe it will be a GM that just has a boner for JC and he just drives the market , a very likely scenerio seeing as there are stories of suitor for him regualry ...but none for fizer who is in a similar situation.

i doubt JC signs an MLE deal if worse came to worse he would take the QO in my opinion and start fresh the year after


----------



## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

OT: Happygrinch

Are you going to give Deng a chance this year, or will you downplay him because he wasn't your guy?


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Electric Slim</b>!
> OT: Happygrinch
> 
> Are you going to give Deng a chance this year, or will you downplay him because he wasn't your guy?


i'll admit if i were pax i would have picked someone else , but i dont think he is going to be a bad player , i never had , but i find his skills unrefined and he's going to need time to show what he can do, and i also think with all the hubbub and expectations we are looking at a 1st year bust . 

if i'm wrong and he is a player from day one i'll be the 1st to say i was wrong, and i'll be happy i'm wrong because he is a bull , with that being said i haven't been wrong about a bulls draft pick in quite some time, and this isn't something i'm unsure about and i'm just spouting off on , i'm pretty damn sure he is just a kid with a good future who just isn't ready and is not the guy we should have gotten.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> i'll admit if i were pax i would have picked someone else , but i dont think he is going to be a bad player , i never had , but i find his skills unrefined and he's going to need time to show what he can do, and i also think with all the hubbub and expectations we are looking at a 1st year bust .
> ...


I somewhat agree with you, grinch.

The biggest issue I have with Deng is simply his age. Yet another 19 year old guy who we may have to wait to see how he develops. It's true that he may have a better aptitude for the game than our two 7'ers and maybe he'll be a pretty good SF right away. But I feel he'd probably do better to go to a team with 4 vets in the starting lineup, and he might turn out like Amare (quick development).

On the other hand, Pax went small with Gordon, and he went with the tallest of the SFs available at #7. And it's hard to quibble with any one of them as the pick, or that we maybe lucked into Deng at #7 - he was projected to be the #3 pick by many.

Clearly, the verdict is out until we see how the team plays together.


----------



## dsouljah9 (Jul 9, 2002)

If we are going to trade Crawford, then I think we ought to trade him and JYD to Seattle for Rashard Lewis, sign Macas, Adonal Foyle and Kukoc. We'd look like...

PG: Hinrich, Duhon

SG: Gordon, Macas

SF: Lewis, Deng, Kukoc

PF: Chandler, Davis

C: Curry, Foyle


----------



## thunderspirit (Jun 25, 2002)

DB, you have (relatively succinctly) summarized my feelings on the draft, though admittedly my feelings are somewhat stronger. (i've since calmed down, but i'm still pretty unhappy.)

Deng is supposedly ready to produce, but how many 19-year-olds come in ready to produce, _particularly_ when they're expected to do so at a different position than they played in college? Gordon was debateably the third-best player in the draft, but how does he fit on this team, unless it's at the expense of Crawford?


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>thunderspirit</b>!
> DB, you have (relatively succinctly) summarized my feelings on the draft, though admittedly my feelings are somewhat stronger. (i've since calmed down, but i'm still pretty unhappy.)
> 
> Deng is supposedly ready to produce, but how many 19-year-olds come in ready to produce, _particularly_ when they're expected to do so at a different position than they played in college? Gordon was debateably the third-best player in the draft, but how does he fit on this team, unless it's at the expense of Crawford?


Wasn't Melo 19 last season? There's always a chance Deng produces pretty darn well. 

I think the jury's out, and I don't want to prejudge what the guy can do until we see him in action with the rest of the guys.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Wasn't Melo 19 last season? There's always a chance Deng produces pretty darn well.
> ...


Melo was arguably the best player in college by the time the college season ended ....deng was not the best player on his own team , in fact he was probably 4th behind duhon reddick and sheldon williams ...there is a big diference between the 2.


----------



## RugbyBull (Jan 28, 2004)

*Back to Jamal*

I for one think Deng's going to turn out to be alright, especially considering the matching with Gordon. Should we expect him to start? I wouldn't, but I bet he will be getting 20-25 minutes per game this coming season.

I for one think that Crawford will be on the bulls next season, regardless of whether we get the lithuanian or not, because he at this point is an asset and proven scorer. Even if Gordon is the long term answer at SG with Kirk at PG, does management want/expect him to be the perimeter guy from day one? Jamal was able to score 50, with no small forward, and though is not a perfect ballplayer is able to do a number of things well. Long term, he may not be the greatest fit with Gordon and Hinrich, as management has said they want a big perimeter, defense oriented guy, and Jamal is better on offense than defense.

My read on management, judging by the trade for Deng and statements on using the MLE with a split, is that Jerry has given Paxson a fairly strong green light to remake this team fast. Therefore signing JC is still in the cards, but if you don't believe he would be a good long term fit, you might take something back in exchange.

I think besides intangible assets, (picks, capspace, etc.) what Pax would be willing to give up JC for is a long 2/3 defender, so that our guard rotation could be set at Gordon Hinrich (starters) and Majauskas (if he comes) offense and new guy (defense). So a sign and trade for a guy with lesser ability offensively, but a better defensive presence (Petrius, Diaw, maybe even Stephen Jackson types) could be on the table, though it could mean a step back in the short term.

My ideal team (within reasonable limits) would look like this

Split the MLE between Majauskas and Eric williams Use the veteran's exception on Toni Kukoc

Hinrich 30/ Gordon 28
JC30/ Gordon/ Majauskas 10
Eric Williams 24/ Deng 16/ Kukoc 8
Tyson 30/ JYD 18
Curry 33/ AD 15

With the first unit we run a half court offense through Curry. Second unit, we turn over to Gordon, put a lot of energy guys on the court and let him dictate the flow like an Allan Iverson.


----------



## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> i'll admit if i were pax i would have picked someone else , but i dont think he is going to be a bad player , i never had , but i find his skills unrefined and he's going to need time to show what he can do, and i also think with all the hubbub and expectations we are looking at a 1st year bust .
> ...


That was enough to satisfy me  , good job. What was your optimal draft, grinchy?


----------



## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> i'll admit if i were pax i would have picked someone else , but i dont think he is going to be a bad player , i never had , but i find his skills unrefined and he's going to need time to show what he can do, and i also think with all the hubbub and expectations we are looking at a 1st year bust .
> ...


That was enough to satisfy me  , good job. My knock on Deng is that he's a player who definitely needs one more of college before he's ready for the NBA. But that aside, I think he's a great pick at #7, and fills a positon that we need.

What was your optimal draft, grinchy?


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> Melo was arguably the best player in college by the time the college season ended ....deng was not the best player on his own team , in fact he was probably 4th behind duhon reddick and sheldon williams ...there is a big diference between the 2.


By tourney time, Deng was the best player on that Duke team.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/ncaatourney04/tourneyStats?row1=1

Here are the Duke tourney stats...

Luol Deng, Duke	17.6ppg / 7.4 rpg/ 2.8 assists .542 FG%	.773	FT% .389 3PT %

Redick, Duke	16.0	4.0	2.2 .419	.929	.357

S. Williams, Duke	11.8	8.6	0.8	.475	.840	.000

Chris Duhon, Duke	6.8	5.0	5.4 .310	.882	.125

----------------------------------------

p.s. Ben Gordon, UConn 21.2	4.3	3.2 .394	.907	.368

p.p.s. If Pax has regrets on this draft, it will be that he should have just drafted Deng at #3 and called it a night rather than setup a situation where Hinrich or Gordon has to guard SGs.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> By tourney time, Deng was the best player on that Duke team.
> ...


numbers dont mean everything if they did kris humphries would have been picked before deng and he wouldn't have needed the draft camp measurements and workouts to boost his stock. 

i am talking about impact. Deng put up nice numbers but they were flow of game numbers and what i mean by that is that the ball came to him and he converted either he rebounded or he shot it in an unassuming way , almost all of his tourney games you would look at his stats and be surprised he put up the numbers he did. in fact if you were to read the recaps of all those games i believe deng headlined only one of them showing that the numbers he put up weren't nearly the story they seem to be now. when it came to the point in the game where it was going to be decided it was duhon most of all who did the heavy lifting with his defensive efforts or reddick as he was the go to guy (even in the tourney) and in the post williams was really the guy you had to worry about on the boards most often , he avg. more than deng by almost 2 game and in about 5 less mintes a game. Deng was a guy who could fill the cracks and do a little of everything and most teams really didn't have an answer for him because he is very talented , by far the most talented on the duke team who at this point do not a have someone who could have came out besides deng and gone in the 1st round. and even while being so talented by comparison he was not the guy they went to when they needed a basket it in the uconn game they went repeatedly to duhon or reddick , that in itself shows how much the numbers mean because i'm pretty sure he had a better stat wise game than either of them.

Time will tell if gordon was a good pick , i believe if the drafting of gordon with JC in their backcourt will make life easier for all three. Gordon can create for himself at a level no one on the team can except for JC so it will create better shots for everyone ,JC especially because he wont have to take so many of the bad ones at the end of the shot clock. kirk whom i believe is a more of a 2 guard anyway will have the ball less in his hands as a creator and be able to focus more on converting what others create. and Gordon gets 2 players to play with who can guard shooting guards so he never has to since he is probably too small to do it for any length of time. If JC leaves this trio it will add to both kirk's and ben's burden as offensive creators and make kirk on defense a full time 2 guard which unless he is bulking up right will burn him out at some point next year. And will give ben gordon basically JC's penchant for taking shots at the end of the shot clock by trying create off the dribble as he will be the main guy off the ball as a rookie which is almost always a bad idea hopefully curry will be a much better player if that occurs because if not it wont be pretty.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Electric Slim</b>!
> 
> 
> That was enough to satisfy me  , good job. What was your optimal draft, grinchy?


livingston and josh smith , both are projects and i realize its not something the bulls really need. but when in doubt you go for the talent, and those 2 outside of howard are the most talented players in the draft. The idea of any team that isn't the bobcats count on rookies to make substantial impact in the win column is far fetched to me and since the bulls have their building blocks in the 3 C's and kirk they dont need more than rotation play anyway of which they are or are not capable of bring their 1st season , to me it matters very little , i feel e-rob was a capable starter at the 3 and was happy with JC's and kirks work in the backcourt , they only needed a player or 2 to spell them here and there and they would have been better , and i'm expecting kirk to a much better player this year, but back to the draft , you dont draft player for what they are at 18 you draft them for the players you see in their 25-30 years in their prime unless that player will make an impact day one and most rookies aren't difference makers unless they are very special player or just very experienced and talented deng doesn't fit either category to me and gordon the latter one, but not to the point i would have passed on livingston

in the 2nd round i would have taken duhon, i 100% agree with that selection if not him i would have gone with another project in Ha sueng jin who could be a good back-up for curry in a couple of years


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> numbers dont mean everything if they did kris humphries would have been picked before deng


 I'd say comparing the stats amonst teammembers a lot more telling that comparing stats between players on different teams.



> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> i am talking about impact. Deng put up nice numbers but they were flow of game numbers and what i mean by that is that the ball came to him and he converted either he rebounded or he shot it in an unassuming way ,, almost all of his tourney games you would look at his stats and be surprised he put up the numbers he did.


You may not have noticed him but everyone that coached against Duke did. :laugh: 



> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> in the post williams was really the guy you had to worry about on the boards most often , he avg. more than deng by almost 2 game and in about 5 less mintes a game.


There you go again. How is 1.2 RPG difference almost 2? It's almost 1.

You can spin it anyway that you want. 

Even if Deng is only their leading scorer, there most efficient player, their second best go-to guy, their second best rebounder, clearly a better argument can be made that Deng was Duke's best player rather than 4th best by tourneyment time.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd say comparing the stats amonst teammembers a lot more telling that comparing stats between players on different teams.
> ...


how about comparing game recaps ? do they mean anything or does that not count either ? 

And i never said i didn't notice him i would often be surprised by the numbers he put up when they were good....and the difference in rebounding is actually 1.6 , i thought deng avg. 6.7 rebs to wiliams 8.5 i wasn't trying to spin it i just rounded off 1.8 to 2 but 1.6 works just the same. its not the supreme case you are making out to be.Like i said stats are one thing impact are another , for instance if i were to go by stats alone i would say by far JC is the best guard on the bulls and he is a better defender too by virture of his steals and block advantages on kirk.

would stats be telling the truth there?


----------



## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

He gone...


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*FWIW...* 



> It seems fairly obvious the Bulls are looking to make a trade or have simply given up on re-signing restricted free agent Jamal Crawford. Word has it the Bulls have soured on Crawford to such an extent that he is likely going to be allowed to leave via restricted free agency. The odds of that happening seemed high before the draft with teams such as New York and Denver expected to bid for JC’s services. *There was also talk this week that Jamal has not kept up his level of offseason commitment, and the Bulls apparently do not feel he is their man at big money.*





http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_8791.shtml


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> *FWIW...*
> 
> http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_8791.shtml


From the same article:

"*RAY ALLEN:* Ray does not want to spend the best part of his career on a rebuilding club. If the Sonics continue to pursue promising youth, Ray’s demands will get more vocal. Its more likely than not he’ll be traded this summer and Portland looks like the best suitor for his services, although some in the media are saying the Bulls have eyes for Ray and would be willing to swap for him…"

If we lose Jamal and can turn around and get Ray Allen, I'll be happy. Rather keep Jamal, but....


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!Like i said stats are one thing impact are another , for instance if i were to go by stats alone i would say by far JC is the best guard on the bulls and he is a better defender too by virture of his steals and block advantages on kirk.
> 
> would stats be telling the truth there?


Looking at efficiencies, Kirk and JC's stats are pretty identical. No wonder the debates are so fierce.

Deng's tourney stats are heads and shoulders above the other guys on his team.

Your two knocks against Deng are a.) various Duke starters did one thing better than Deng.

This is like saying MJ was the 5th best player on his team b/c Pax had a better 3Pt, Pippen was the better distributor, Grant was a better rebounder and Cartwright was the best post defender.

b.) he didn't make the impact that his number would suggest

Pull up all the game summaries that you want. Deng's game got better the deeper Duke got into the tourney. Seems like his impact is better than his numbers.


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Hoopsworld is basically just guys like us speculating, their next breaking story will be their first. Jamal has always kept working hard on his conditioning and I am sure he is doing the same this offseason. 


As far as where he ends up, I think it's very likely that he remains a Bull. I don't much buy into the "well this team has cap so they might be able to make him an offer" school of thought. If you want a guy bad enough you find a way to dump salary or negotiate something that makes sense and I expect if he isn't with the Bulls it will be someone we least expect that has interest in him. I think all of these teams would like Jamal and will be working towards trying to get him this offseason:

Seattle
NY
Cleveland
Utah
and possibly Denver.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Looking at efficiencies, Kirk and JC's stats are pretty identical. No wonder the debates are so fierce.
> ...


no my various knocks aren't any of the kind he was not the guy that cost opposing teams wins against duke. thats a fact. you dont like any source i bring to you oh well , i guess no one can tell you different not the sportwriters who watched the game,and wrote the game recaps , not the opposing team who did not scheme against himwho also in the recaps would refer to other players as key, you want to believe a statsheet which can be interpeted many ways.

the deepest he got into the tourney was duke's final game and he yet again put up good #s but what did he do with the game on the line? 



in the last 5 minutes this is his line 0-2 from the field 0-1 from the Ft line 1 reb no assists 0-2 from 3pt range , no blocks no steals. If he was their best player why didn't they go to him more? or if his value was in his all around play where was it?, his only rebound was off an okafor missed free throw which was not hard to get unless okafor's miss did something out of the ordinary, ben gordon actually had 2 boards during that same span.

http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/gamecenter/boxscore/[email protected]

but to you all you see is 16 & 12 and the best game on the duke team that night i see different , i see a player that when it came down to winning time was no where to be found ...

impact means more than stats , you have to see the game to see impact anyone can read the stats and in deng's case the stats lied.

also no one ever says JC is a better defender despite the stats , so though the arguments are fierce its not like the stuff you are trying to pull with numbers.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> no my various knocks aren't any of the kind he was not the guy that cost opposing teams wins against duke. thats a fact. *you dont like any source i bring to you* oh well , i guess no one can tell you different not the sportwriters who watched the game,and wrote the game recaps , not the opposing team who did not scheme against himwho also in the recaps would refer to other players as key, you want to believe a statsheet which can be interpeted many ways.


You have yet to bring a source to me.
Have you posted links to recaps? Or to any sportwriter's quotes? No.  



> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> the deepest he got into the tourney was duke's final game and he yet again put up good #s but what did he do with the game on the line?
> ...


Sorry, that dog doesn't hunt.

The whole Duke team collapsed. Deng included. How does this make Deng a lesser player than Redick or Williams?

Reddick, your go-to guy, missed his only shot. By your logic, Redick's 5 min line was 0-1 from the field 0-0 from the Ft line no reb no assists 0-0 from 3pt range , no blocks no steals, 1 turnover Is this your definition of go-to?


----------



## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> From the same article:
> ...


Allen to Portland 

Abdur Rahim to Chicago 

Crawford, JYD , Pippen and Jeffries to Seattle


----------



## yangsta (May 14, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>F.Jerzy</b>!
> 
> 
> Allen to Portland
> ...


As a Portland fan... I would LOOOVE that... crawford returns home, allen turns portland in to a contender, SAR brings some consistency to the bulls.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> You have yet to bring a source to me.
> ...



http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/gamecenter/boxscore/[email protected]

theres a recap deng wasn't mentioned not once for any reason , 16 and 12 isn't what it used to be, you would think he would be mentioned for something ,anything if he were in fact their best player i guess the national media didn't get that memo as they did mention every other member of the duke rotation with the exception of sean dockery...and of course deng, but reddick is their go to guy and the huskies were doing everything in their power to stop him , dengs' shots(in the last 5 min) were unguarded 3's that he missed badly , and of course a missed free throw. you think that because duhon plays better defense i think he is a better player? no its because duhon is such a better defender that it actually changes the outcome of games.

you like to gloss over the fact that there can be a difference between what a person puts on the scoreboard and their actual stamp on a game according to you i suppose charlie ward because he was 10th in 3pt shooting is a better shooter than all but 9 players in all of the nba. 

i would like to see the endless amount of proof that you have that deng is their best player...feel free to let loose with it.


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

ok guys, ahem, back to what will happen to *Jamal Crawford* this off season for a second! thanks!

Chad Ford lists the top free agents this summer and the teams interested in them. 

Jamal is #10 on the list. 

The teams interested in him according to Insider are...

*Clippers, Bobcats, Nuggets, Hawks, Warriors, NY and Seattle via S&T* 

this list does not include the Bulls. why is that?


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/gamecenter/boxscore/[email protected]
> 
> theres a recap deng wasn't mentioned not once for any reason , 16 and 12 isn't what it used to be, you would think he would be mentioned for something ,anything if he were in fact their best player i guess the national media didn't get that memo as they did mention every other member of the duke rotation with the exception of sean dockery...and of course deng, but reddick is their go to guy and the huskies were doing everything in their power to stop him , dengs' shots(in the last 5 min) were unguarded 3's that he missed badly , and of course a missed free throw. you think that because duhon plays better defense i think he is a better player? no its because duhon is such a better defender that it actually changes the outcome of games.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

One lame recap from CBS sportsline. Who even goes to Sportsline for basketball news?




> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/gamecenter/boxscore/[email protected]
> you like to gloss over the fact that there can be a difference between what a person puts on the scoreboard and their actual stamp on a game according to you i suppose charlie ward because he was 10th in 3pt shooting is a better shooter than all but 9 players in all of the nba.
> 
> i would like to see the endless amount of proof that you have that deng is their best player...feel free to let loose with it.


The stats are pretty clear proof that Deng was not the 4th best Duke player in the NCAA tourneyment.

Is your endless proof the CBS Sportsline and your very own magnificent recap?


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> ok guys, ahem, back to what will happen to *Jamal Crawford* this off season for a second! thanks!


OK - No more Deng talk from me.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
> ...


if the best you can do is belittle cbs sports to make your argument seem plausible you have surely lost and there is no point in beating a dead horse.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> ok guys, ahem, back to what will happen to *Jamal Crawford* this off season for a second! thanks!
> 
> Chad Ford lists the top free agents this summer and the teams interested in them.
> ...


well the top 10 list is a pretty stong one but unlikely all of those players will even leave their respective teams.

but lets go through the top 10 under the worst case scenerio for jamal crawford 

1.Kobe signs with the clips taking their cap money and also letting qrich go
2kenyon is traded to the blazers thus the nets keep jason kidd and the blazers for some reason decide to stay with the status quo at pg for a year with a lame duck incumbant in stoudamire.
3 sheed signs with the knicks taking their MLE
4Nash goes to the suns taking their cap $ and their need for a pg.while dallas inexplicably does nothing to fix their pg hole now.
5okur goes to the bobcats taking their cap with it , why would they want him ....who knows .
6 dampier goes to the jazz
7 manu and hedo resign very fast into the FA period taking up the spurs cap with it. 
8. &9stromile and blount go to the hawks while sura resigns at big money taking their cap

10 the nuggets either stay with lenard or sign qrich , while B. Barry quietly resigns with the sonics and they figure not to enter in to the market for a pg. 

and of course the bulls use their MLE on steven jackson and their capologist tells them they can only pick one ...and pax picks wrong.

it would literally take all of this to happen plus probably a few more things like other gm's deciding derek fisher is a better addition than jc because even with this JC is still the pg option for a team and maybe no. 1 on some gm's mind because he is so much younger than nash and a team like the warriors would have to decide that maybe some euro player is the guy for them like the guy who the suns got from the knicks in the marbury trade.

then you know what happens ....JC takes the QO and repeat this next year except there are no strings and JC is a 100% goner.

i think the best thing to do is for pax to try and work something out with JC and do it quick , make a commitment to him and if it doesn't work out in a year when the base yr. hold on JC wears off trade him then ...but that wont happen.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Happygrinch and I have had this debate before. He seems to forget that Deng's strong play down the stretch, including rebounds, putbacks, and a key assist, won the close tourney game against Xavier. 

Oh yeah, but he was doubting Deng's impact. Wait...


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> ok guys, ahem, back to what will happen to *Jamal Crawford* this off season for a second! thanks!
> 
> Chad Ford lists the top free agents this summer and the teams interested in them.
> ...


well the top 10 list is a pretty stong one but unlikely all of those players will even leave their respective teams.

but lets go through the top 10 under the worst case scenerio for jamal crawford 

1.Kobe signs with the clips taking their cap money and also letting qrich go
2kenyon is traded to the blazers thus the nets keep jason kidd and the blazers for some reason decide to stay with the status quo at pg for a year with a lame duck incumbant in stoudamire.
3 sheed signs with the knicks taking their MLE
4Nash goes to the suns taking their cap $ and their need for a pg.while dallas inexplicably does nothing to fix their pg hole now.
5okur goes to the bobcats taking their cap with it , why would they want him ....who knows .
6 dampier goes to the jazz
7 manu and hedo resign very fast into the FA period taking up the spurs cap with it. 
8. &9stromile and blount go to the hawks while sura resigns at big money taking their cap

10 the nuggets either stay with lenard or sign qrich , while B. Barry quietly resigns with the sonics and they figure not to enter in to the market for a pg. 

and of course the bulls use their MLE on steven jackson and their capologist tells them they can only pick one ...and pax picks wrong.

it would literally take all of this to happen plus probably a few more things like other gm's deciding derek fisher is a better addition than jc because even with this JC is still the pg option for a team and maybe no. 1 on some gm's mind because he is so much younger than nash and a team like the warriors would have to decide that maybe some euro player is the guy for them like the guy who the suns got from the knicks in the marbury trade.

then you know what happens ....JC takes the QO and repeat this next year except there are no strings and JC is a 100% goner.

i think the best thing to do is for pax to try and work something out with JC and do it quick , make a commitment to him and if it doesn't work out in a year when the base yr. hold on JC wears off trade him then ...but that wont happen.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Happygrinch and I have had this debate before. He seems to forget that Deng's strong play down the stretch, including rebounds, putbacks, and a key assist, won the close tourney game against Xavier.
> 
> Oh yeah, but he was doubting Deng's impact. Wait...


 i forgot nothing ...but without duhon forcing chalmers into a very bad night on offense , especially down the stretch of that game , there is no win no matter what deng does , 

in the ncaa tourney duke played in 5 games how many of thos games was deng if he was their best player the star of the night , i grant that he is their most talented(not best but talented) , but all things being equal it was easily duhon's tournament , it was him who made sure his team wouldn't lose 

do you know what chalmers xavier's star player the man duhon guarded did for the 5 minutes of the game except for a meaningless jump shot with one second left ....nothing, no shots rebounds, assists absolutely nothing ...the 3 or so minutes before that . 0-4 2 to's 

thats why i say its duhon that drove that team , people say deng but when you watch the game, its not him , dont get me wrong he played well and he did play well down the stretch.

when you look at the stat sheet its hard not to say deng is the best player on the team , its very easy to say after you've seen duke play.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Happygrinch and I have had this debate before. He seems to forget that Deng's strong play down the stretch, including rebounds, putbacks, and a key assist, won the close tourney game against Xavier.
> 
> Oh yeah, but he was doubting Deng's impact. Wait...


:yes: Not really worth the effort, is it? 

Grinch has nicely covered himself by saying that Deng is the most talented Duke player even though he was only the 4th best player last year. So if Deng is great in the future, no problem. He just developed.

LOL. He did the same thing with Jay Williams. He can never be wrong.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> :yes: Not really worth the effort, is it?
> ...


i remember saying jay will would have a disappointing season and i was dead on in fact i'm pretty said 9 pts 40% from the field and 4 or 5 assists ...if deng could avg. 9 points i would call this upcoming season a success . but he wont.

i never said deng wasn't talented in fact i've never said he was anything less than a lottery talent albeit i think the ending portion but that will be decided when the games count i've also said i dont think anyone on the duke team has done anything worthy of being better than a 2nd round pick...so saying deng is their most talented player is no great leap there although for you it seems to be.

What it take you, a day to break your word about mentioning deng?

All to take a shot at me i guess i should feel flattered but i don't ...a shot that was off by the way.


----------



## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> so saying deng is their most talented player is no great leap there although for you it seems to be.
> ...


Grinch, you should read what you write sometimes. You're one of those "Dude, I don't care" guys who's obliged to constantly remind everyone constantly that you "don't care". It's like violently shaking someone from the shoulders while screaming "I'M NOT MAD AT YOU!!!!!!!!!!!"""""""""


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Electric Slim</b>!
> 
> 
> Grinch, you should read what you write sometimes. You're one of those "Dude, I don't care" guys who's obliged to constantly remind everyone constantly that you "don't care". It's like violently shaking someone from the shoulders while screaming "I'M NOT MAD AT YOU!!!!!!!!!!!"""""""""


I dont think thats the case at all, i do care , but if someone is going to attepmt to belittle me and my opinions the least he could do is do it in a way that isn't so corny and weak. johnston797 loves to try and correct people but he has nothing to correct me with , at duke deng was not their star player , its even pretty debateable he was that in high school next to charlie V at blair who was also a top 5 or so player by just about everyone.Yet my assertion that deng will not be "the guy " in chi. causes such a stir or even that at 19 he wont be ready despite the fact that many claim him to be "raw " from Rlucas up to jonny pax himself , the guy who drafted him.

Am i worth breaking johnston breaking his word ...well... , all i can say on that is that he isn't worth me breaking mine , so take from that what you will.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont think thats the case at all, i do care , but if someone is going to attepmt to belittle me and my opinions the least he could do is do it in a way that isn't so corny and weak.


Dude, if I really wanted to belittle you, I would remind you that you are supposed using proper punctionation in every one of your posts.

Remember our bet about Denver's win total last year.

http://basketballboards.net/forum/s...=15&highlight=nuggets AND miller&pagenumber=3

:laugh:


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Dude, if I really wanted to belittle you, I would remind you that you are supposed using proper punctionation in every one of your posts.
> ...


i would perfer you try it , with your basketball knowledge , although i do realize that request might be a bit much for you.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> i would perfer you try it , with your basketball knowledge , although i do realize that request might be a bit much for you.


Call me crazy, but predicting last fall that the "Denver used their cap space wisely" (my words) shows a lot of basketball knowledge.

Thinking they "look like a 17 win team again" (your words), maybe not so much......


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Call me crazy, but predicting last fall that the "Denver used their cap space wisely" (my words) shows a lot of basketball knowledge.
> ...


Apparently you dont show the same acumen with the bulls ...until that happens i will call denvers guess on your part pure luck.


----------

