# Tex Winter blasts Shaq



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Thanks to LG.net for bringing this to my attention. Tex Winter on 1540am this afternoon said: 

"Shaq defeated himself against the Pistons - He had one big game in the finals - Boxing out and rebounding was awful by Shaq in the Finals - One assist in a finals game is inexcusable - Over the years Shaq has had no interest in defense or rebounding, only on the offensive end - Shaq will be a challenge for that team in Miami." 

Tex's top 5 players by position: 

PG Baron Davis 
SG Kobe 
SF Odom 
PF Timmy 
C Shaq

Despite what a bad Finals Kobe had, people forget that Shaq played virtually no defense in the Pistons series (partially because he wasn't fit enough to handle one day rest games) and had only one big rebounding game (after a 2 day+ rest). Good to know a sharp basketball mind like Tex Winters sees what some of us saw during that series.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Thanks to LG.net for bringing this to my attention. Tex Winter on 1540am this afternoon said:
> 
> "Shaq defeated himself against the Pistons - He had one big game in the finals - Boxing out and rebounding was awful by Shaq in the Finals - One assist in a finals game is inexcusable - Over the years Shaq has had no interest in defense or rebounding, only on the offensive end - Shaq will be a challenge for that team in Miami."


:yes: 



> Tex's top 5 players by position:
> 
> PG Baron Davis
> SG Kobe
> ...


:nonono: Come on Tex? Odom the best small forward in the league? As much as any laker fan would like to believe this is true, it just isn't. :whoknows:



> Despite what a bad Finals Kobe had, people forget that Shaq played virtually no defense in the Pistons series (partially because he wasn't fit enough to handle one day rest games) and had only one big rebounding game (after a 2 day+ rest). Good to know a sharp basketball mind like Tex Winters sees what some of us saw during that series.


:yes: Chuuuch!


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Tex's top 5 players by position:
> 
> PG Baron Davis
> ...


He picked Odom, haha. I wonder who he would have picked 6 months ago? I guess if its even debatable, then might as well say it. 

Baron Davis is an interesting pick too. TD, Kobe and Shaq are not surprising, since they have been the best at their position for years now.

I think that Shaq getting one assist in a finals game was more because they had a 6'9 center guarding him in single coverage. so not only was he looking to shoot, but anyone he passed out to would be covered by someone.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Tex Winter blasts Shaq*



> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> I think that Shaq getting one assist in a finals game was more because they had a 6'9 center guarding him in single coverage. so not only was he looking to shoot, but anyone he passed out to would be covered by someone.


You might be right, but at the same time, it's interesting how a player can complain about not getting the ball when he clearly was not distributing the ball himself.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

You have to have the ball to distribute it.

In spite of Winter's criticisms, Shaq was the Lakers best player in the finals.

And if the Lakers had given him the ball more, the Pistons would have been cooked, because they had no answer for him down low.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: Tex Winter blasts Shaq*



> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> He picked Odom, haha. I wonder who he would have picked 6 months ago? I guess if its even debatable, then might as well say it.
> ...


I don't think Tex is with the Lakers anymore...

Anyways this was Tex's top ten SFs a year ago, granted Lamar had a bounceback year since then.

1- Stojakovic
2- Marion
3- Jefferson
4- Mashburn
5- Jamison
6- Robinson
7- Artest
8- Wells
9- Kukoc
10- Lewis/Harpring/Kirlenko

"comers"- Mike Miller and Caron Butler

So he even had Butler ahead of Odom.


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## JoeD (Sep 2, 2004)

Why would Shaq go for assists when he was scoring almost every time he got the ball?


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

I don't know how much u can criticize a guy for lack of assists when he was shooting over 60% from the field. And if a certain teammate wasn't so pathetically selfish on the court, Shaq might have actually gotten the ball more and LA wouldn't have looked so bad. Regarding his rebounding and D, that's what carried LA over the first 3 rounds. It's tough to dominate the boards against the two Wallaces. Either way, Shaq was the least of LA's problems against the Pistons. Fact is, Malone and GP couldn't get anything done. Bryant was hell bent on making sure Shaq had no chance at finals MVP. And Pistons were just too good to be beaten.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Yeah thats gotta be an old list if Kukoc is still up there.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Yeah thats gotta be an old list if Kukoc is still up there.


Yeah, but you gotta keep in mind Kukoc used to play for Tex, so he may be a wee bit bias!


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> I don't know how much u can criticize a guy for lack of assists when he was shooting over 60% from the field.


It warrents some merit considering this 'guy' went to the free throw line at least 10 times every game, and shot under 50%. Shaq totaled *1* assist in three different games, in the finals. Tex Winters has a point.



> And if a certain teammate wasn't so pathetically selfish on the court, Shaq might have actually gotten the ball more and LA wouldn't have looked so bad.


Shaq got the ball just about as much as he did in the regular season. He averaged 17 shots per game, and went to the free throw line 11 times per game. 



> Regarding his rebounding and D, that's what carried LA over the first 3 rounds. It's tough to dominate the boards against the two Wallaces.


I agree that it's tough to dominate against two wallaces, but this is Shaq we're talking about. He can dominate anyone he chooses, IMO, the only person who can beat Shaq is Shaq. Had he been as determined to win while he was a lakers as he is now with the heat, those two wallaces wouldn't stand a chance!



> Either way, Shaq was the least of LA's problems against the Pistons. Fact is, Malone and GP couldn't get anything done.


True, true



> Bryant was hell bent on making sure Shaq had no chance at finals MVP.


Not so sure about that, but it's possible.



> And Pistons were just too good to be beaten.


:yes:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> Why would Shaq go for assists when he was scoring almost every time he got the ball?


That would have helped get his teammates involved and contrary to popular belief, it was not Shaq who won titles for LA, it was the team itself. No one person can win it all, everyone has to play a role, that's the only way to win. Just ask the Pistons!

p.s. Shaq complained about not getting the ball as much as he would have liked to, but he didn't get the ball to his teammates either, so how are they supposed to feel..... maybe the same way he did.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> You have to have the ball to distribute it.


17 shots per game, and 11 free throw attempts.


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> Why would Shaq go for assists when he was scoring almost every time he got the ball?


Did they win, though?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

The Pistons played it about smart as possible. They made it really difficult to get it into the post, but once it got there, they stayed at home. 

Shaq shot 63% from field and averaged 27 points. Thats insane. However, those numbers came at the expense of not establishing the other players on the team in the game. Shaq couldnt beat the Pistons himself, and since he was getting easy buckets whenever he touched the ball, no other player could really get going. 

If Shaq did pass out, it wouldnt have done much good because the Pistons wouldnt be recovering from any double team. 

You cant blame Shaq for not passing of the post when he could score easily. You also cant blame his teammates for not performing well because their touches are limited with Shaq looking to be fed the ball every play. 

So the bottom line is, Pistons had an excellent gameplan, and it worked to perfection.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> The Pistons played it about smart as possible. They made it really difficult to get it into the post, but once it got there, they stayed at home.
> 
> Shaq shot 63% from field and averaged 27 points. Thats insane. However, those numbers came at the expense of not establishing the other players on the team in the game. Shaq couldnt beat the Pistons himself, and since he was getting easy buckets whenever he touched the ball, no other player could really get going.
> ...


Damn good post! :clap:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> 17 shots per game, and 11 free throw attempts.


That's really not very many considering how easy it was for him to score. He was shooting 60 percent for godsakes. He should have had the ball everytime down the court and forced Larry Brown to double. That's how the Lakers work. You run the triangle through Shaq in the Post. But the Lakers went away from that.

They lost because their team was a bunch of greedy primadonnas who cared about everything BUT the Detroit Pistons.

Hubris is a *****.

Out of all the players on that Laker team in the finals, to single out Shaq seems silly.

I agree he stopped rebounding and defending like he did against the Spurs and Wolves, which was why they won those series. But his offense was so good that it's beyond insane that the Lakers couldn't figure out how to get him the ball in single coverage. Was it because they weren't good enough to throw an entry pass?(possible) or was it because they weren't trying?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

:greatjob: Tex. You may be a senile old coot (and I mean that in the most flattering way possible,but c'mon man, Odom as the best SF), but at least someone has the balls to not cow-tow to the imperial one known as Shaquille O'Neal.  

:clap:


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Tex's top 5 players by position:
> 
> PG Baron Davis
> SG Kobe
> ...


Ok, change the PG and the SF and you got yourself a better lookin list... And of course, where was Tex complaining about Kobes terrible shot selection, his 38% shooting, his ridiculous amount of turnovers (3.6 per game), all his technicals, his 4-23 from the three point line... His 2.8 Rebounds Per Game, and his only 4.4 Assists Per Game, But yeah... Let's blame Shaq... That's perfectly fair!


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Shaq got the ball just about as much as he did in the regular season. He averaged 17 shots per game, and went to the free throw line 11 times per game.


Kobe averaged 23 shots per game and averaged 23 ppg... (If everything is rounded up)... Shaq averaged 27ppg on 17 shots per game... Who was the selfish one? Kobe had his lowest assist total of any of the series... He shot the worst, and he had his worst three point percentage... Yet he took more shots... :uhoh:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Out of all the players on that Laker team in the finals, to single out Shaq seems silly.


I didn't hear the interview with Tex, so I don't know what context his comments on Shaq were within, but I will say this... there is no one to blame for the Lakers losing. Instead of blaming players, why can't you all just credit Detroit for being the better team? Besides, Shaq did not have a great series, I believe Tex's comments could be in defense of popular opinion. No one ever addresses the things or faults in Shaquille's game. Shaq could have done some things differently, just like Kobe could have, just like GP could have, Malone could have, everyone could have. Maybe Phil's coaching could have been better, who knows? 

Why is it that everyone get's sensitive anytime Shaq is critiqued?
Shouldn't he be?




> I agree he stopped rebounding and defending like he did against the Spurs and Wolves, which was why they won those series. But his offense was so good that it's beyond insane that the Lakers couldn't figure out how to get him the ball in single coverage. Was it because they weren't good enough to throw an entry pass?(possible) or was it because they weren't trying?


I think it was because the Piston defense is so underated, no one wants to credit them for the great job they did on hounding the perimeter. If the guards can't get the ball inside, credit the defense... Don't they deserve more credit than the Lakers minus Shaq deserve to be blamed?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe averaged 23 shots per game and averaged 23 ppg... (If everything is rounded up)... Shaq averaged 27ppg on 17 shots per game... Who was the selfish one? Kobe had his lowest assist total of any of the series... He shot the worst, and he had his worst three point percentage... Yet he took more shots... :uhoh:


It's shoud be easier for you to blame Kobe for having a poor series fg percentage wise because he did. As far as his shooting, he always shoots more than Shaq, so that shouldn't be a surprise.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

well a "great basketball mind" in Pat Riley saw great things in Shaq....so you can post how Tex thinks about Shaq b/c he is the one who is going to miss him, while Riley can sit in his suite and enjoy the view...


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

haha, how quickly Laker fans change their minds.

Yeah, Shaq doesn't care about defense anymore. He caught the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar syndrome. But I don't see EHL, this tex dude, or anyone else blasting Kareem because he got lazy on defense later in his career.

Why is this? Maybe because Kareem didn't demand to be traded out of LA? Probably.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> haha, how quickly Laker fans change their minds.
> 
> Yeah, Shaq doesn't care about defense anymore. He caught the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar syndrome. But I don't see EHL, this tex dude, or anyone else blasting Kareem because he got lazy on defense later in his career.
> ...


You're first mistake is generalizing. All Laker fans are not the same. And anytime you refer to Winters as 'this tex dude' as if he's nobody, then your opinion about Laker basketball is laughed at before it's even presented.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> You're first mistake is generalizing. All Laker fans are not the same. And anytime you refer to Winters as 'this tex dude' as if he's nobody, then your opinion about Laker basketball is laughed at before it's even presented.


just like a laugh at most Lakers fans perspectives of non-Lakers and non-Laker basketball...


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## Hov (Aug 12, 2003)

Ah, not this arguement again..

As disappointing Kobe was on offense, Shaq was just as disappointing on the defensive/rebounding tip. 
Lakers got dominated plain and simple.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hov</b>!
> Ah, not this arguement again..
> 
> As disappointing Kobe was on offense, Shaq was just as disappointing on the defensive/rebounding tip.
> Lakers got dominated plain and simple.


Yeah but Kobe was disappointing on offense and defense...


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## Hov (Aug 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah but Kobe was disappointing on offense and defense...


No, he did a good job when he was on Hamilton/Billups.

Payton and others were the ones getting torched, not Kobe.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> haha, how quickly Laker fans change their minds.
> 
> Yeah, Shaq doesn't care about defense anymore. He caught the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar syndrome. But I don't see EHL, this tex dude, or anyone else blasting Kareem because he got lazy on defense later in his career.
> ...


I'm interested how you would know in the first place, did you even watch Jabbar with the Lakers in his later years? Clearly not, Jabbar was hardly known for not playing defense or rebounding the way Shaq was known for not playing defense or rebounding in his last couple years with the Lakers. And Jabbar was actually declining due to age, something he couldn't help. Shaq was in his prime. 



> well a "great basketball mind" in Pat Riley saw great things in Shaq....so you can post how Tex thinks about Shaq b/c he is the one who is going to miss him, while Riley can sit in his suite and enjoy the view...


This has nothing to do with this thread and I'll kindly ask you to leave if all you'd like to do is talk about the Miami Heat.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> I'm interested how you would know in the first place, did you even watch Jabbar with the Lakers in his later years? Clearly not, Jabbar was hardly known for not playing defense or rebounding the way Shaq was known for not playing defense or rebounding in his last couple years with the Lakers. And Jabbar was actually declining due to age, something he couldn't help. Shaq was in his prime.


:laugh: 
:laugh: 
:laugh: 
:laugh: 

Jabbar clearly was known for not playing defense during the 80s. And you can't blame it all on decline either, he didn't even try to play defense. If someone drived into the lane, Jabbar wouldn't even leave his feet to attempt a block, he'd just turn around and be ready for the rebound. 

Jabbar certainly was a ton worse at defense in the 80s than Shaq has been in the last few years. He has been the butt of many jokes for his lack of defense during those times.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


:uhoh: I highly suggest ESPN classic.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

ad hominem.

They even made a joke about it in Airplane about how he doesn't try on defense. You're one heck of a historical revisionist.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> ad hominem.


Suggesting ESPN classic is not a personal attack. Look up the definition again if you're not entirely sure what ad hominem means.



> They even made a joke about it in Airplane about how he doesn't try on defense. You're one heck of a historical revisionist.


Jabbar was never as bad as Shaq. And he actually had a good excuse when he didn't play defense; he couldn't, he was in his late 30's/early 40's. 

Seriously, I suggest some heavy ESPN classic watching and League Pass this season. There's no comparison between Shaq's lack of work ethic and hustle on the basketball court and Jabbar's. There just isn't.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no it does...just b/c one person says shaq is lazy b/c he left his team, doesn't make that any more correct than Pat Riley, who's credibility is just as good or better, saying the exact opposite


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> no it does...just b/c one person says shaq is lazy b/c he left his team, doesn't make that any more correct than Pat Riley, who's credibility is just as good or better, saying the exact opposite


Riley has said Shaq has a tremendous work ethic and isn't in the least bit lazy? Link? 

Besides, Shaq plays for the Heat now, of course Riley is going to talk good about him. Tex doesn't work for the Lakers anymore, and has no affiliation with any team at the moment. His comments mean quite a bit more because of that.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> You have to have the ball to distribute it.
> 
> In spite of Winter's criticisms, Shaq was the Lakers best player in the finals.
> ...


The Pistons wouldnt have been cooked, Shaq might have gotten 40 a game but it would have made no difference.
You think if LB was so concerned with Shaq scoring he might have doubled him? Ever think of that one?

Its a team game, and just because the 6-7 & 1/2 Ben Wallace couldnt stop him doesnt mean the Lakers would have rolled if Shaq got 10-15 more shots a game. And a lot of that fault should go to Shaq for not being able to get good position. 

And Tex is exactly right, Shaq played no D and did not rebound. 
If he would have moved around a little more, boxed out one time, maybe the Pistons wouldnt have gotten so many 2nd chance points.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> haha, how quickly Laker fans change their minds.
> 
> Yeah, Shaq doesn't care about defense anymore. He caught the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar syndrome. But I don't see EHL, this tex dude, or anyone else blasting Kareem because he got lazy on defense later in his career.
> ...


Change minds about what, people on the lakers forum have been saying for the past 2 years that Shaq's D blows and so does his effort at times. People have certainly been saying he can't defend the pick and roll for as long as I can remember.

Maybe you should actually see the forum first.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Suggesting ESPN classic is not a personal attack. Look up the definition again if you're not entirely sure what ad hominem means.
> ...



Pan just got........

Owned.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

im not a huge laker fan (although i support them and go to a fair number of games) but i dont like the way laker fans have in a way turned on shaq, not completely against him but it seems easier to bash him now. he is probably the last truly great center we'll ever see. the man put the title back in titletown. i was in LA from 2000-2002, there was nothing that can compare to that feeling when you own - im not saying dont bash anyone but as much loyalty should be exhibited now as it was then. shaq's my guy, he always will be. tex should be more appreciative as well


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

He won't be the last great center we ever see. That is unless you feel the world is going to end next year.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> Why is this? Maybe because Kareem didn't demand to be traded out of LA? Probably.


Exactly.

But then again, most Laker fans have always been Kobe-lovers to the point where they even disliked Shaq while he was still on the Lakers.



> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> just like a laugh at most Lakers fans perspectives of non-Lakers and non-Laker basketball...




:laugh: This is coming from the guy who only posts to pimp Heat players, even scrubs like Jerome Beasley, and constantly bashed Shaq before he switched his jersey.


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## P2TheTruth34 (May 25, 2003)

tex is a douche, shaq is the man and was obviously the only player playing well in finals. odom top SF, haha


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> 17 shots per game, and 11 free throw attempts.


As opposed to a certain teammate's 23 shots and five free throw attempts. Of course, unlike that teammate (who averaged nine field goals), Shaq sunk a few more of his attempts. In fact, ten more field goals in 29 fewer shots. Who was it that was shooting the ball too much again?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah but Kobe was disappointing on offense and defense...


Disappointing on defense? Review the stats from game one, where Kobe's focus was the shut down Rip. He did just that. Game two the focused switched to offense, and Kobe won that game! And the rest of the series was disappointing to watch all the Lakers players. How can you single out Kobe Bryant defensively? Statistically, offensively he was off. But statistically, defensively he did a damn good job.... especially considering he had to guard either Rip or Chancey when his game was on.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


Kareem in the 80's, was 1st team all nba defensive team in 1980, and in 1981. He was 33 and 34 years old then. He again won all league defensive reckognition in 1984, when he was 37! 

Hate all you like, but the fact remains... while you think Kareem was *not playing defense during the 80's*. the who's who of the nba certainly did because they selected him as one of the best defenders in those 3 years.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> no it does...just b/c one person says shaq is lazy b/c he left his team, doesn't make that any more correct than Pat Riley, who's credibility is just as good or better, saying the exact opposite


Actually, I think it all makes sense. Pat Riley has Shaq in camp, and Shaq is busting his *** to prepare for the upcoming season. He's cut, he's ripped, and he's looks ready to tear it up!!!!!

On the flipside, the past two years in LA. Shaq instead of working hard during the offseason, would sit the beginning of the season out because he decided to have surgery QUOTE "on company time" He got hurt on company, so he rehabed on company time. Instead of looking like the Shaq of today, he looked over weight, & out of shape. 

Shaq didn't like the way things shifting in LA. Shaq in alot of ways is a big baby, he wants to have things his way and if it doesn't go that way, he wont give you his best. He gave the lakers his best for a few years, they won 3 titles, things changed, so Shaq stop working as hard, so LA lost in the playoffs those final two years. Shaq has things the way he wants them now, and just watch, he's going to dominate the way he once did. IMO, he could have dominated all along, the only person to keep Shaq from being the best is Shaq.... and I think he's taken care of that.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ehmunro</b>!
> 
> 
> As opposed to a certain teammate's 23 shots and five free throw attempts. Of course, unlike that teammate (who averaged nine field goals), Shaq sunk a few more of his attempts. In fact, ten more field goals in 29 fewer shots. Who was it that was shooting the ball too much again?


I'm not making any reference to Kobe shooting the ball too much. Maybe you're new to the Laker bashfeast, but this is how it works. When LA loses and Kobe shoots poorly from the field, it's his fault. Most bashers like to point out Kobe shoots too much and should get Shaq the ball without even realizing Kobe always shoots more than Shaq. Shaq generally gets about 15-20 FG attemts per game, and goes to the line about 10 times. Laker fans get it, according to the bashers, it's Kobe fault. Tex Winters on the other hand, knows his team, know's that everyone on that court for LA could have worked harder, could have done more than what they did and that would have made a difference in the series. You all ignore the fault of Shaq all the time, as a Shaq fan.... I can live with it, but as a Laker fan and Kobe fan it's tough to swallow because the pistons got so many second chance points, offensive rebounds, and were able to run the floor with there big men... and that ultimately contributed to running LA out of another title


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## sweet_constipation (Jul 3, 2004)

IV is taking on all challengers.
 


Lakers just got tapped all around.
From coaching to the players.....they were just owned.
Though, there were a couple of games where even my girlfriend's mom would ask why they weren't passing it down low when Shaq would be on a roll.
:no:


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jamel Irief</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This coming from the guy who doesn't know there is basketball outside of Lakers basketball..you can say Beasley is a scrub, but you don't know much about him at all.............but like most Lakers fans, you think you know everything about everything


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Thanks to LG.net for bringing this to my attention. Tex Winter on 1540am this afternoon said:
> 
> "Shaq defeated himself against the Pistons - He had one big game in the finals - Boxing out and rebounding was awful by Shaq in the Finals - One assist in a finals game is inexcusable - Over the years Shaq has had no interest in defense or rebounding, only on the offensive end - Shaq will be a challenge for that team in Miami."
> ...


 .......................................................

I find it simply amazing that Tex says that - AFTER the big man is gone! One sure didn't hear that during the playoffs or for that matter - anytime BEFORE this last season.

I take that as "sour grapes, petty, and almost whiney" in its presentation.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> This coming from the guy who doesn't know there is basketball outside of Lakers basketball..you can say Beasley is a scrub, but you don't know much about him at all.............but like most Lakers fans, you think you know everything about everything


If Beasley wasn't on the Heat, you wouldn't give a damn about him. If Beasley was on the Lakers, I wouldn't give a damn about him.

I don't only post everything Laker in this forum. In fact I frequently have non-Lakers in my avatar. Out of my 5 favorite players in the league, only one plays for the Lakers (Odom). If I named myself after a Laker player and he got traded I wouldn't change my name.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

I really have alot of respect for Jamel as a poster... He's very unbias, and has almost zero homerism... And he is one of the VERY few Laker fans that has stuck with Shaq... Which is a very honorable thing to do... To say that he knows nothing outside of the Lakers is not very correct...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Re: Tex Winter blasts Shaq*



> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> .......................................................
> ...


What is Tex Winter sour about?


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

As far as me saying Kobe sucked on offense and defense...

2004 NBA Finals

Rip Hamilton - 21.4 ppg

Chauncey Billups - 21.0 ppg

Both were well above their season average... Those are the only 2 guys Kobe would have guarded... And they both lit him up...


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## kg_mvp03-04 (Jul 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> As far as me saying Kobe sucked on offense and defense...
> 
> 2004 NBA Finals
> ...


Actually billiups lit up Gary Payton, he was controlled by Kobe. Kobe did ok on rip not great. As for shaq getting one assist that has alot to do with the lakers not being able to hit their shots. You need someone to hit a shot to get an assist, on one on the lakers team was hitting shots the whole series. I think Karl getting hurt really hampered them on the boards because they had no one else who could rebound besides Shaq. Shaq is good but he can't really do it all by himself. 

Iam a believer that if shaq were to take more shots they would have won the series, even my grandparents who don't watch basketball all that often kept saying they should throw the ball to shaq because he was just abusing Ben Wallace on the offensive end.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> As far as me saying Kobe sucked on offense and defense...
> 
> 2004 NBA Finals
> ...


This is easily one of the your least intelligent posts SacKing. Think for a few seconds; why would averages over an entire series be relevant in a discussion about Kobe's defense when he didn't guard either player for all 5 games the series lasted? Come on now, this is really easy stuff.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> This is easily one of the your least intelligent posts SacKing. Think for a few seconds; why would averages over an entire series be relevant in a discussion about Kobe's defense when he didn't guard either player for all 5 games the series lasted? Come on now, this is really easy stuff.


Ok, so lets see... You would just THINK, when Billups went off for 27 points in game 2, that hey, maybe before he gets those 27 points, we're gonna stick Kobe on him! Everytime people use this as an excuse, it's ridiculous... Saying that he didn't guard either player all 5 games. Why was Kobe switching between Billups and Rip? For one simple reason, to shut down the hot player... So let me ask you this, let's say Billups who had let's say 15 points at the half, and Phil says "Kobe we need you to shut down Billups"... Well now Billups just got 12 more in a half... Then of course we go to game 3... Kobe's natural guy... Hamilton scores 31 in game 3... Now don't you just THINK for one itty bitty second, that when Hamilton started scoring, Phil was like Hey Kobe I want you to forget Billups and stick Hamilton? NOOOO Phil Jackson is a moron, he'd just tell him to stick to Billups who had 19 points right? Yeah of course... Game 4... Billups with 23... And game 5 was just a blowout, but Hamilton had 23... So lets see here, now if I am to believe this excuse, I have to agree that Gary Paytons defense IS SO BAD, that Rip Hamilton can score 31 in the very little time GP is defending him, and Billups averaged 21 points, only in the time GP was guarding him... But ONCE Kobe got on him, SHUT DOWN... :uhoh:


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## sweet_constipation (Jul 3, 2004)

As stupid as Kobe did play a couple of games on offense, his defense was on point.
Problem is, it wasn't as if he held one guy the entire game.
Billups would get hot, Kobe would move over to him.
Pistons and LB having common sense decide it's time for Rip to score......
Lakers switch Kobe onto Rip.....now Billups scores, or is free to do as he pleases.


The Lakers defense was a joke except for Kobe.
A Joke.
Everything from D-Flop, to George, to Payton, to who ever.
A Joke.
One guy can't guard 4/5 other players.


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## Hov (Aug 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>sweet_constipation</b>!
> As stupid as Kobe did play a couple of games on offense, his defense was on point.
> Problem is, it wasn't as if he held one guy the entire game.
> Billups would get hot, Kobe would move over to him.
> ...


EXACTLY!
But overall just about every Laker was a disappointment and we got straight up dominated.


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

We all know that Shaq *SUPER SUCKS* now that hes in Miami!!! 

Hes only lost damn near 30lbs (prolly 10-15 more by the time the season starts) and is driven by a crazy desire to *prove* to the *world* that he is the alpha and that Kobe was just his sidekick!!!

This will be the first time in *3* years that Shaq will be *entering* the season *in shape* and *hungry* for another title!!!

We'll see just how slow,lazy and unwilling he is to play D now that hes 30-40lbs lighter!!!


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> Ok, so lets see... You would just THINK, when Billups went off for 27 points in game 2, that hey, maybe before he gets those 27 points, we're gonna stick Kobe on him! Everytime people use this as an excuse, it's ridiculous... Saying that he didn't guard either player all 5 games. Why was Kobe switching between Billups and Rip? For one simple reason, to shut down the hot player... So let me ask you this, let's say Billups who had let's say 15 points at the half, and Phil says "Kobe we need you to shut down Billups"... Well now Billups just got 12 more in a half... Then of course we go to game 3... Kobe's natural guy... Hamilton scores 31 in game 3... Now don't you just THINK for one itty bitty second, that when Hamilton started scoring, Phil was like Hey Kobe I want you to forget Billups and stick Hamilton? NOOOO Phil Jackson is a moron, he'd just tell him to stick to Billups who had 19 points right? Yeah of course... Game 4... Billups with 23... And game 5 was just a blowout, but Hamilton had 23... So lets see here, now if I am to believe this excuse, I have to agree that Gary Paytons defense IS SO BAD, that Rip Hamilton can score 31 in the very little time GP is defending him, and Billups averaged 21 points, only in the time GP was guarding him... But ONCE Kobe got on him, SHUT DOWN... :uhoh:


Will you stop.

I have all 5 games on tape. Want me to send them to you? Its obvious after your last few posts that you didnt watch the finals, or you have a poor memory. 

Fact is, Kobe played pretty good defense in that series, slowed down a bunch of their perimeter players. No Pistons player that Kobe guarded shot the ball efficiently against him.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Funny because I cen recall at LEAST 5 or 6 analysts after some of the games go, "see this is where the Kobe MJ comparisons need to stop... MJ would never play this kind of defense on an inferior player..." Or things along the lines of that. If you say Kobe played good defense, there is nothing to show for it. Look at the numbers, I find it very hard to believe that those numbers were only put up against Gary Payton not Kobe...


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> Fact is, Kobe played pretty good defense in that series, slowed down a bunch of their perimeter players.* No Pistons player that Kobe guarded shot the ball efficiently against him. *


REALLLYYYYY... Hmm well let's see...

Billups Game 1 - 
8-14... 

Hamilton Game 1 -
5-16.. I assume you'll say this is the game Kobe just guarded Rip all day...

Billups Game 2 -
6-15

Hamilton Game 2 - 
10-25

Billups Game 3 - 
5-11

Hamilton Game 3 - 
11-22


Billups Game 4 - 
7-12... 

Hamilton Game 4 - 
5-11... 

Hamilton Game 5 - 
6-18

Billups Game 5 - 
3-5

Of course game 5 was absolutely meaningless... So let's see... Kobe was guarding 1 of the 2 at SOME point in the game... Either way, he sure as hell didn't do a very good job at stopping either of them. If what people say is true, that Kobe was put on the guy that was shooting well to cool him off, it sure as HELL didn't work... But of course you say Shaq played no defense, where is your proof for that? I agree he didn't play defense all that well, however I don't see how you can say Kobe played good defense looking at these numbers...


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## Mack Ten (Jul 2, 2004)

Ko***** got owned and exposed in the Finals. He shot 35% for criss sakes? You call that a superstar? He got outplayed and flat out embarrased by Rip Hamilton whos is not even a damn all star. Tay exposed him as a fruad. T-Mac, Pierce, AI, Vince, even Ray Ray would of killed Prince.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Mack Ten please... You're not helping my cause...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

SacKings, I fail to see why you even bother to argue this point when you clearly didn't watch the Finals closely enough. You've got the games mixed up that Kobe defended Hamilton and Billups in. If you can't even get simple stuff like that right, there is no point in having an argument with you.

And it's still beyond idiotic that you continue to cite full game production when Kobe didn’t guard Rip or Billups for a full game.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Nobody guards any player for a full game... :no: ... I fail to see any reason to believe Kobe played good defense on EITHER player...And I actually watched the whole series not too long ago on NBA TV, they replayed them... So if Billups is hitting shots, and Rip is hitting shots, who the hell is Kobe defending so well?


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> Nobody guards any player for a full game... :no: ... I fail to see any reason to believe Kobe played good defense on EITHER player...And I actually watched the whole series not too long ago on NBA TV, they replayed them... So if Billups is hitting shots, and Rip is hitting shots, who the hell is Kobe defending so well?


Christ, watch the gametape.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> Nobody guards any player for a full game... :no: ... I fail to see any reason to believe Kobe played good defense on EITHER player...And I actually watched the whole series not too long ago on NBA TV, they replayed them... So if Billups is hitting shots, and Rip is hitting shots, who the hell is Kobe defending so well?



All you are doing buddy is showing every knowledgeable basketball fan that reads this, that you don't know a whole lot

Nice job.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

I love how you guys are defending your position... Not with any fact, just with, "I watched the games..." Real awesome, I love that defense... SO if I am to get your statements correct, which I seriously HOPE I'm interpreting this wrong, because if I'm not then my god is this idiotic... Rip and Chauncey ONLY scored, when Kobe wasn't defending them, when Kobe was on them, they were LOCKED down... Wow... Musta shot a crazy *** percentage against Payton and George and Fisher... :uhoh:


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## Gripni (Dec 14, 2003)

The Lakers played horribly bad defense for most of the series. But defense is 95% team. Kobe is one of the best defenders in the NBA. Shaq should be able to stop anyone who drives. Everyone who has followed the NBA at any point in time in the 90's knows that Gary Paton is one of the best defenders of all time (although he is pretty old now and is nowhere near as good.) Karl Malone has always been solid defensively, and Devean George and Rick Fox are both considered defensive specialists, even if it is only because their offense is so terrible. But they obviously didn't come through. Because defense is a team effort. Kobe couldn't stop the Pistons. Shaq couldn't stop the Pistons. The Pistons are the definition of a TEAM. They play as one. In the Finals, that was what made the Pistons so much better than the Lakers. The Pistons would have swept the Lakers, too, if it weren't for a great individual performance by Kobe at the end of Game 2.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> I love how you guys are defending your position... Not with any fact, just with, "I watched the games..." Real awesome, I love that defense... SO if I am to get your statements correct, which I seriously HOPE I'm interpreting this wrong, because if I'm not then my god is this idiotic... Rip and Chauncey ONLY scored, when Kobe wasn't defending them, when Kobe was on them, they were LOCKED down... Wow... Musta shot a crazy *** percentage against Payton and George and Fisher... :uhoh:


that's how EHL does his thing, he can't back up anything he says..so he goes with insults...basically, the main reason why I don't put much into any of the posts he makes


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

The only game Kobe did a noteworthy job on defense in the Finals is game 2. He kept Hamilton in check the entire night and that was it. From game 3-5, he just got whored by both of em'. And i don't need to look at the numbers for that. I SAW the games. Every freaking minute and every second. Rip was practically running circles around him by coming off those screens to a point where Kobe just gave up. Billups got whatever shot he wanted at will the entire series. Game 3 most notably, I remember PJ swtiched Kobe on him in the 4th qtr and he was playing him so physical....and not once did Billups back down. He calmly dribbled around him and nailed BIG jumpers. Ric Bucher even wrote an article on how Billups didn't back down and sent a message back to Kobe.

Bottomline: Kobe was plain dreadful in that series. Defensivelyand especially offensively, where he pretty much decided if LA was going to win, it will be because of him, and NOT Shaq. Tex can criticize Shaq all he wants. But those with eyes and no bias could clearly see #8 was MUCH, MUCH worse then him. He stunk. Even ESPN laid off the "Like Mike" crap they were spewing at us all postseason long. PTI who can't get off his nuts were laughing at his Finals play. Every b-ball writer criticized him and called him selfish. Even JT The Brick whose the biggest Kobe homer tore his play apart.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> just like a laugh at most Lakers fans perspectives of non-Lakers and non-Laker basketball...


Just like I laugh at how big of a Homer you are, all of a sudden Shaq is your favorite player now? You even changed your handle for him. Lets look @ your old posts.

On the subject of who is your favorite and least favorite players:
http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=65317


> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> Favorite: Zo-Q-DMiles-Bibby
> 
> Least: Shaq and Kobe





> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> Tom & Jerry are about as good of a combo as Shaq & Kobe





> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> i honestly dont care...the lakers are a joke and so is shaq and kobe...they are billboards thats it





> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> i'd rather have our team than the team you have right now...i dont like shaq or kobe....i dont want the washed up old guys you have...call me a laker hater....i'm a canes fan, so i know what you deal with when everyone 'hates' on your team.....





> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> -I met Shaq when I was like 12 at the All-Star Cafe for his record release party, he wouldnt sign my card, and i've hated him since





> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> duncan....i dont support shaq or the lakers




There are plenty more..I could go on. 
:uhoh:


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

*HallOfFamer's* post above is exactly why I don't reply to *Shaq Diesel*, easily the worst homer offender on this board next to BigAmare. It doesn't get any more hypocritical than that, nice job HOF. 

Anyway, *SacKing*, it's no surprise you still don't understand what's going on. You've been this way since you came here, and I can only conclude it's some type of reading comprehension problem or just your plain hatred of the Lakers (most likely).


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HallOfFamer</b>!
> 
> 
> Just like I laugh at how big of a Homer you are, all of a sudden Shaq is your favorite player now? You even changed your handle for him. Lets look @ your old posts.
> ...


Yup. Shaq Diesel just got *OWNED * on this one!!! :laugh:


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Yup. Shaq Diesel just got *OWNED * on this one!!! :laugh:


If I had no life, I'd go back to listen to alot of Lakers fans rip apart Odom...but I have better things to do...

I didnt like Shaq in LA, I liked him in Orlando...and obviously I'm going to like him in Miami...

if the Devil played SF for the Heat, I'd root for him...


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> If I had no life, I'd go back to listen to alot of Lakers fans rip apart Odom...but I have better things to do...


You won't find Laker fans ripping Odom, finding you ripping Shaq isn't hard considering you did it all the time. 



> if the Devil played SF for the Heat, I'd root for him...


So you are a Heat homer? Should we listen to anything you post that doesn't have something to do with Heat basketball?


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jamel Irief</b>!
> 
> 
> You won't find Laker fans ripping Odom, finding you ripping Shaq isn't hard considering you did it all the time.
> ...


and you arent a Lakers homer? look in the mirror...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> If I had no life, I'd go back to listen to alot of Lakers fans rip apart Odom...but I have better things to do...
> ...


Sorry about that, Shaq Diesel, but i just couldn't resist it...  

But still, i'm curious... I'm willing to bet at the fact that you didn't like Shaq *in LA* because he won, wasn't it? Cause he sure looks like it...

But nevermind... Like i've said on numerous times, i wish nothing but the best to The Big Lug and the Miami franchise... i only wish we could meet at the Finals... :sigh:


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry about that, Shaq Diesel, but i just couldn't resist it...
> ...


Obviously, I didnt like LA b/c they were winning...I don't like the Yankees...I didnt like the Cowboys back in the day...I'm a Hurricanes fan, go to the college fball forum and see how many people hate them like most successful fball programs...

why do alot of people hate those teams? B/C they are envious(spelling) of the success...when players leave those teams, it's not hard to not hate them

how many people hate on the horrible teams? not many...it's all about winning


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> and you arent a Lakers homer? look in the mirror...


From a Kings fan on Jamel:


> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> I really have alot of respect for Jamel as a poster... He's very unbias, and has almost zero homerism... And he is one of the VERY few Laker fans that has stuck with Shaq... Which is a very honorable thing to do... To say that he knows nothing outside of the Lakers is not very correct...


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HallOfFamer</b>!
> 
> 
> From a Kings fan on Jamel:


that's nice...he's one of the few which I can somewhat stand, eventhough he's done some unneccessary things that I don't agree with


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

i just dont get this

this guy is obviously a Laker homer. Didnt have Odom top 10 last year, but hes number one this year. He rips shaq and praises Kobe (look on lakers board), even after shaq scored 27 ppg on 60% shooting in the finals and kobe shot 30 sumthin percent and had a terrible series

and he praises kobe while ripping shaq


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadeshaqeddie</b>!
> i just dont get this
> 
> this guy is obviously a Laker homer. Didnt have Odom top 10 last year, but hes number one this year. He rips shaq and praises Kobe (look on lakers board), even after shaq scored 27 ppg on 60% shooting in the finals and kobe shot 30 sumthin percent and had a terrible series
> ...


You don't even know who Tex Winter is, why make ignorant comments about him? He has absolutely no affiliation with the Lakers organization anymore.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> [*Shaq Diesel*, easily the worst homer offender on this board next to BigAmare.


if you wanna call me a homer thats fine....I'm a huge Heat fan, just like I am with the Dolphins, Canes and Marlins (and sorta BGSU)....I live and die when those teams play, I've broken many remotes and things in my hands just like any other big time sports fan...If that makes me a homer, then thats fine...I'll keep supporting my team and it's players and defending them on this site as long as I'm here..


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> *HallOfFamer's* post above is exactly why I don't reply to *Shaq Diesel*, easily the worst homer offender on this board next to BigAmare. It doesn't get any more hypocritical than that, nice job HOF.
> 
> Anyway, *SacKing*, it's no surprise you still don't understand what's going on. You've been this way since you came here, and I can only conclude it's some type of reading comprehension problem or just your plain hatred of the Lakers (most likely).


Well you not once have stated your point as to why Kobe played good defense, all you say is that Kobe didn't guard either of them the whole series... Well he was guarding ONE of the two at some point, and they both lit the Lakers up, so I don't see how you can say Kobe played good defense... Seriously not once, not ONCE have you stated something RELEVANT to your arguement...Just a bunch of babbling...


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> You don't even know who Tex Winter is, why make ignorant comments about him? He has absolutely no affiliation with the Lakers organization *anymore*.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> Well you not once have stated your point as to why Kobe played good defense, all you say is that Kobe didn't guard either of them the whole series... Well he was guarding ONE of the two at some point, and they both lit the Lakers up, so I don't see how you can say Kobe played good defense...


:yes: 

It's because Kobe is still a Laker, and they are *homers* so they place the blame on Shaq


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> You don't even know who Tex Winter is, why make ignorant comments about him? He has absolutely no affiliation with the Lakers organization anymore.


why make ignorant comments about him? I know he aint with the Lakers anymore. He used to be a assistent coach for them. 

but everything ive heard from him so far is laker oriented. cmon, odom number 1 now. Why wasnt he in top 10 last year. Rip shaq after a great performance and after he gets traded, but say nothing about Kobe's terrible perforance. I dont need to be a rocket scientist to see whats goin on here. How can u say his comments arent Laker oriented? He isnt coach anymore, but hes obviously a laker fan.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> if you wanna call me a homer thats fine....I'm a huge Heat fan, just like I am with the Dolphins, Canes and Marlins (and sorta BGSU)....I live and die when those teams play, I've broken many remotes and things in my hands just like any other big time sports fan...If that makes me a homer, then thats fine...I'll keep supporting my team and it's players and defending them on this site as long as I'm here..


Being a homer is fine, I don't have a problem with that. It's the homers that literally elevate their Heat player's status after mersilessly bashing them before they became a Heat that makes you look bad. 



> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> *anymore*


Uh, you just proved my point. :laugh: Winter made these comments _after_ leaving the Lakers organization. 



> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> Well you not once have stated your point as to why Kobe played good defense, all you say is that Kobe didn't guard either of them the whole series... Well he was guarding ONE of the two at some point, and they both lit the Lakers up, so I don't see how you can say Kobe played good defense... Seriously not once, not ONCE have you stated something RELEVANT to your arguement...Just a bunch of babbling...


This is why there's no point in arguing with you, you just don't understand simple concepts. Here it is in crayon; Kobe guarded Rip for several minute stretches during different quarters of Games 1-5 (I forget exactly which quarters). He did the same thing with Billups. During those stretches, instead of them scoring at will like they would on Payton, Fisher, etc., they scored moderately or poorly. During one stretch (Billups) scored easily on Kobe (Game 4 or 5). If you don't understand this very simple concept, I suggest you go ask your parents right now.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadeshaqeddie</b>!
> 
> 
> why make ignorant comments about him? I know he aint with the Lakers anymore. He used to be a assistent coach for them.
> ...


Oy! :uhoh:

Tex Winter was *asked* these questions on the radio and in an interview. He didn't just go up to someone and start saying "Hey, let's talk Lakers! Yippe!!!". Odom probably wasn't in Tex's top 10 before 2003-2004 because he was on drugs and played 49 freaking games the previous season. 

Look, it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about, just stop now.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Being a homer is fine, I don't have a problem with that. It's the homers that literally elevate their Heat player's status after mersilessly bashing them before they became a Heat that makes you look bad.


Like I said before, I didn't like Shaq on the LAKERS. I knew he was good..you can't deny that. I know Kobe is good too, but I still don't like him. I knew Ewing was good too, but I didn't like him. I'm sure you are the same way with players. If you hated Webber (just an assumption), and he got traded to the Lakers, you're telling me you wouldn't root for him? Same situation...


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

And your proof of this is... Where? I could easily say, KG didn't light up Chris Webber, he lit up Brad Miller! Whenever KG played Webber KG scored nothing, except for that nice cross-over on Webber... Other than that, nothing! Once again, I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe, that Rip Hamilton is SO GOOD, that he can go off for 31 in ONLY the time that Kobe wasn't guarding him... Same with Billups... I heard MULTIPLE times, the commentators during the game mention Kobe not playing good defense... I heard Tolbert, Stephen A, Doug Collins, and Doc Rivers ALL mention this... Go ahead, if you have the tapes watch it... And if I had the SportsCenter arcives I could show you those too...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> Like I said before, I didn't like Shaq on the LAKERS. I knew he was good..you can't deny that. I know Kobe is good too, but I still don't like him. I knew Ewing was good too, but I didn't like him. I'm sure you are the same way with players. If you hated Webber (just an assumption), and he got traded to the Lakers, you're telling me you wouldn't root for him? Same situation...


Here's what you said: "I'd rather have our team [Odom-Butler-Grant] than the team you have right now...i dont like shaq or kobe....i dont want the washed up old guys you have...call me a laker hater....i'm a canes fan, so i know what you deal with when everyone 'hates' on your team....." And you're going to tell me you weren't referring to their skills as players?  



> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> And your proof of this is... Where? I could easily say, KG didn't light up Chris Webber, he lit up Brad Miller! Whenever KG played Webber KG scored nothing, except for that nice cross-over on Webber... Other than that, nothing! Once again, I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe, that Rip Hamilton is SO GOOD, that he can go off for 31 in ONLY the time that Kobe wasn't guarding him... Same with Billups... I heard MULTIPLE times, the commentators during the game mention Kobe not playing good defense... I heard Tolbert, Stephen A, Doug Collins, and Doc Rivers ALL mention this... Go ahead, if you have the tapes watch it... And if I had the SportsCenter arcives I could show you those too...


Claim whatever you want, we've already established how little you know about the game and how much you hate the Lakers, there's no point in having a conversation with you.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Let me get out my I have nothing left translator...

Input Quote...


> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> Claim whatever you want, we've already established how little you know about the game and how much you hate the Lakers, there's no point in having a conversation with you.


Output...










I WIN!


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Oy! :uhoh:
> ...


1. The way u posted it is like a quote in a newspaper. If u expect us to think it is the answer to a question, it would be wise to post the question he is answering

if he is asked why the lakers lost, kobe or how good the pistons were would of been a better answer over what he said. Now if he is aked his opinion on how shaq played in the series, than his comments are understandable, and are his opinion. So what question did he answer if it was an interview, or do u expect us to just know that. I dont have LA radio here

2. the odom comment would make sense if he actually played sf last year. Dont you expect a good basketball mind to know what poistion a player who had his best year was playing. Odom is a better pf than a sf, and he certainly isnt the best sf.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Here's what you said: "I'd rather have our team [Odom-Butler-Grant] than the team you have right now...i dont like shaq or kobe....i dont want the washed up old guys you have...call me a laker hater....i'm a canes fan, so i know what you deal with when everyone 'hates' on your team....." And you're going to tell me you weren't referring to their skills as players?


No, it wasn't based on their skills...it was based on who I liked on our team....I'd still like those guys on our team (BG, Grant, LO), I'm not turnign my back on them like some of your Lakers fans have done to Shaq


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> Let me get out my I have nothing left translator...
> 
> Input Quote...
> ...














> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> No, it wasn't based on their skills...it was based on who I liked on our team....I'd still like those guys on our team (BG, Grant, LO), I'm not turnign my back on them like some of your Lakers fans have done to Shaq


Yeah, sure. When you compared Shaq and Kobe to Tom and Jerry, you were simply talking about their looks.  



> Originally posted by <b>wadeshaqeddie</b>!
> 
> 
> 1. The way u posted it is like a quote in a newspaper. If u expect us to think it is the answer to a question, it would be wise to post the question he is answering


And even if it was a quote in a newspaper it is irresponsible to assume that Tex Winter randomly came out of nowhere and started talking about the Lakers. Either way, you assumed incorrectly. So no, Tex Winter is the last person on earth that should be considered a homer. He's the founder of the triangle and a great basketball mind, and has no affiliation with the Lakers organization (that we know of) anymore. That's all I'm saying, no hard feelings.



> if he is asked why the lakers lost, kobe or how good the pistons were would of been a better answer over what he said. Now if he is aked his opinion on how shaq played in the series, than his comments are understandable, and are his opinion. So what question did he answer if it was an interview, or do u expect us to just know that. I dont have LA radio here


Then ask that in the first place, don't just assume Winter is some homer. And yes, he was asked about Shaq. 



> 2. the odom comment would make sense if he actually played sf last year. Dont you expect a good basketball mind to know what poistion a player who had his best year was playing. Odom is a better pf than a sf, and he certainly isnt the best sf.


You can't call him a PF after last season either, correct? He's a tweener. Most people still consider him an SF even after all the PF he played last season. Not many people consider him a PF, but I wouldn't call you crazy for thinking of him as a PF.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, sure. When you compared Shaq and Kobe to Tom and Jerry, you were simply talking about their looks.



No....umm...what's the problem with Tom and Jerry's relationship...they DON'T GET ALONG!


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> No....umm...what's the problem with Tom and Jerry's relationship...they DON'T GET ALONG!


OK, you got me there.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> OK, you got me there.


thank you, i feel like we've reconnected as friends once again :laugh:


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Claim whatever you want, we've already established how little you know about the game and how much you hate the Lakers, there's no point in having a conversation with you.


What the hell is your problem? You've done nothing (at all) but insult him and anyone that disagrees with you.

Here are just a couple of examples of articles from ESPN.com about the Finals.



> Only it [Bryant's attempt to intimidate Chauncey Billups defensively in the closing minutes of Game 3] didn't work.
> 
> Billups not only survived the challenge but he welcomed it. As if he'd been waiting for it his entire life. And, in a way, he was.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2004/columns/story?columnist=bucher_ric&id=1821033



> Bryant lobbied Jackson to let him handle his former Philadelphia-area high school rival, and Jackson consented, but it appears that's because Jackson didn't trust Devean George or Rick Fox or either of the Lakers' struggling smaller guards -- Gary Payton and Derek Fisher -- to try instead.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2004/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1817063



> ...Hamilton wouldn't be where he is now, matching Kobe Bryant bucket for bucket and chiseling a playoff legend that's taking shape with every jumper and each victory in the NBA Finals.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2004/columns/story?id=1820861



> And the man he guarded, boyhood pal Richard Hamilton, scored 31 points.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2004/news/story?id=1819670

OK, so none of those articles jump right out and say "Kobe Bryant did a lousy defensive job in the Finals," but clearly the tone of the coverage is that his defense wasn't very effective.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> What the hell is your problem? You've done nothing (at all) but insult him and anyone that disagrees with you.
> ...


:greatjob: :greatjob: :greatjob:


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)




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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> What the hell is your problem? You've done nothing (at all) but insult him and anyone that disagrees with you.
> ...


His defense was certainly above average, and no where near as bad as his offense was. Your links don't dispute what I just said. 

And really, this isn't about Kobe's defense being lock-down in the Finals, it wasn't, and his team's defense certainly hurt him immensely. Point is that he hardly failed the Lakers defensively in the Finals, as SacKing (ignorantly) claimed somewhere at the beginning of this thread. And his assertion shouldn't be surprising to anyone who has watched SacKing continually troll the Laker board.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Continually eh... Go ahead and go to the Laker board, and find my trolling that wasn't from the beginning... But of course, you consider me saying that Atkins should start over Banks trolling... Hell if I were to post something like this on the Lakers board



> Greg Ostertag sucks and wont help the team at all.





> Vlade on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and from 8am - 5pm on Sunday.



http://www.basketballboards.net/for...erpage=15&highlight=opinion well&pagenumber=2

Post # 28



> guys face it peja is gone then they just pave the way for the lakers to the pacific champs


Someone Posted This 
A non-Kings fan btw



> Kings, Cwebb NBA title
> 
> haahhaa. Never happen. Cwebb is the MLK Jr of the NBA he has been to the mountain top he has seen the promised land he may not get there with you.


And much more, yet there are no blah blah blah troll troll troll things... IN FACT, as you can see on the one with post #28 Right below it



> Well, you have your opinion I guess...


Yet there is no GET OUT OF HERE TROLL whine whine whine... So shut the hell up with the troll thing, the last time I posted in the Laker forum was about Heinz ketchup...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> Continually eh... Go ahead and go to the Laker board, and find my trolling that wasn't from the beginning... But of course, you consider me saying that Atkins should start over Banks trolling... Hell if I were to post something like this on the Lakers board
> 
> 
> ...


:laugh:


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Let's calm down a little bit with the fighting and name calling...


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mack Ten</b>!
> Tay exposed him as a fruad. *T-Mac*, Pierce, AI, Vince, even Ray Ray would of killed Prince.


Is this the same T-mac that was unsuccessful in the first round of the 2003 playoffs? You know the year that Tashawn was a rookie, and he came in and not only strapped Tracy down, but dropped buckets on him as well. Is this the same guy?


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Is this the same T-mac that was unsuccessful in the first round of the 2003 playoffs? You know the year that Tashawn was a rookie, and he came in and not only strapped Tracy down, but dropped buckets on him as well. Is this the same guy?




Honestly, I thought Kobe could've roasted Tayshaun but the Pistons play great team defense so if you get by Prince you have to deal with other Pistons. Don't get me wrong, overall Prince did a nice job guarding Kobe, but a lot of it had to do with the other Pistons playing help defense. 


Prince dropped buckets on everybody in the 03 playoffs. The reason is b/c he sat on the bench virtually the whole season, but when sombody got hurt they put him in the rotation. Teams never had to prepare for him so they didn't have the right schemes to defend him. Remember, Prince was scoring like 18 a game in the playoffs that year. Last year we got a better impression of what he does on the court b/c teams prepared to face him, thus his points went down. You didn't just have to call out T-Mac, you should call out all the teams they played in the 03 playoffs.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I completely agree. And not to undermine Tayshawn's effort because he did a very good job of sticking with Kobe, but the gameplan is what shut Kobe down. Brown took an unorthodoz approach, leave Shaq one v one, and double, sometimes triple the guy who mostly get's Shaq the ball. Once they took Kobe out of the game offensively the Pistons cruised to victory. 



> Prince dropped buckets on everybody in the 03 playoffs. The reason is b/c he sat on the bench virtually the whole season, but when sombody got hurt they put him in the rotation. Teams never had to prepare for him so they didn't have the right schemes to defend him. Remember, Prince was scoring like 18 a game in the playoffs that year. Last year we got a better impression of what he does on the court b/c teams prepared to face him, thus his points went down. You didn't just have to call out T-Mac, you should call out all the teams they played in the 03 playoffs.


Take a moment and read what I responded to. I didn't just call him out. It was written that Kobe was exposed(as a non superstar) by Tayshawn, where as Tmac would have easily killed him if he had the chance. That's was interesting to me because it was just a year ago, that Tayshawn Prince made a name for himself by performing so well in the playoffs, against Tracy McGrady.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I completely agree. And not to undermine Tayshawn's effort because he did a very good job of sticking with Kobe, but the gameplan is what shut Kobe down. Brown took an unorthodoz approach, leave Shaq one v one, and double, sometimes triple the guy who mostly get's Shaq the ball. Once they took Kobe out of the game offensively the Pistons cruised to victory.
> ...



All I was saying is that he roasted everybody in 03, T-Mac and the Magic were in the first round. THe Pistons made it to the ECF.
I do undersatnd what you are saying and why you said it. I jumped in the convo late


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Chuuuch!


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nobody can stop any NBA player one on one. Everyone needs help defense, it's just that great defenders know how to use their help defenders best...


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> Nobody can stop any NBA player one on one. Everyone needs help defense, it's just that great defenders know how to use their help defenders best...


Yeah, when there actually *is* help defense.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, when there actually *is* help defense.


Regaurdless of what you think of Shaq, he is still very intimidating when you come down the lane. He's one of the best big man help defenders in the NBA, just not on pick and roll...


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> Nobody can stop any NBA player one on one. Everyone needs help defense, it's just that great defenders know how to use their help defenders best...


I agree great defenders utilize their help defense better than anyone, but some players do have the ability to shut down without help D.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> Regaurdless of what you think of Shaq, he is still very intimidating when you come down the lane. He's one of the best big man help defenders in the NBA, just not on pick and roll...


Anticipate Shaq showing his worth this year. I think he got to caught up in battling Kobe in LA, instead of just playing basketball. It's his team in Miami, and he's gonna kick some ***. Sure wouldn't catch me driving down the lane if Oneal is under the basket. No way, I'd stop and pop!


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> Regaurdless of what you think of Shaq, he is still very intimidating when you come down the lane. He's one of the best big man help defenders in the NBA, just not on pick and roll...


The pick and roll is what the Lakers kept getting burned with.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Agreed, but they also got burned on penetration... That's the guards job to stop...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> Agreed, but they also got burned on penetration... That's the guards job to stop...


Not if they get picked, which they consistently were during the Pistons series.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Not if they get picked, which they consistently were during the Pistons series.


it's just as much the guards fault as it is Shaq's....

get around the screen so you're not stuck...Shaq needs to hedge the screen so it's harder for the ballhandler to quickly get to the basket


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> it's just as much the guards fault as it is Shaq's....
> ...


Actually no, not even close. You could have the best perimeter defenders in world (let's say Artest and Bowen), and without help from a teammate, they would be rendered completely useless if screened by a good screener. This has been the case since the screen was invented. Heck, just look at the WCSF this year. Bowen was rendered totally useless on the Malone-Kobe pick and roll/pop. He received help, but often not enough and not quickly enough to stop Kobe. 

And Payton is a master of getting around screens, even at the age of 35 during the Finals he did it well. Problem is that he received almost no help from Shaq against Billups (or any other Piston he was defending) and Malone had no lateral mobility after he reinjured his MCL to help on picks.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shaq_Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> it's just as much the guards fault as it is Shaq's....
> ...


 No way its the guards fault. Shaq for 2 years was really lazy showing out on the pick and roll. When he did come out instead of moving his feet and getting back he would reach in and give really bad fouls. 

Tex Winter has no axe to grind with Shaq. He was at practice everyday and saw what we as fans couldn't see on a daily basis so if he says Shaq was slacking and not commited to playing defense and not boxing out he's probably seen a pattern of slacking off the whole time. 

He called Shaq out and his criticisms have been correct. 

I think he's right about Kobe also passing Shaq the ball. 

Shaq just saved his energy for the offensive end of the floor.


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