# Does JR Smith put us over the top?



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Simple question, say the MLE is still available and JR Smith agrees to come here for that, is he enough to put the Bulls over the Heat and Mavs?


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

if he suddenly became the defensive force to go along with his electrified scoring.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

No. He would take some scoring burden off Rose and would probably make us slightly better, but he is not a good enough ballhandler/playmaker or defender to put us over the top.

IMO, the Bulls' lack of a secondary ballhandler is really being understated. Teams saw what Miami did to Rose with regard to trapping him everywhere he goes (and to a lesser extent, Indy did it w/ some success); teams will steal that strategy all of next season. I don't think Smith is good enough at creating to keep teams honest. What would really be great is Doug Christie in his prime...someone who can be sort of a second PG on the floor, defend at a high level, and be a credible threat from 3-pt range. Iguodala comes fairly close to this, though isn't the 3-pt threat we'd desire. Hedo Turkoglu (the good version) would be another ideal fit, though too late for that obviously since he's washed up.


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## HotSauce (May 15, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> Simple question, say the MLE is still available and JR Smith agrees to come here for that, is he enough to put the Bulls over the Heat and Mavs?


No, just an upgrade. I'd rather see us move a few pieces for a better player


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

JR Smith is not that bad defensively, he just is really inconsistent in his defensive effort. He plays the passing lanes pretty well, and you guys are underrating his passing (2 assist per game average in 24 minutes per game).

He might be enough to put you over the top, but I don't know that he'd sign for the MLE. He doesn't really seem like that kind of guy.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

He may not be a superb ball handler but he's better than Bogans and that right there alone is an upgrade. He will bring at times spectacular 3 point shooting and the occasional high light reel play but all that talent is held back by a **** attitude. He struggled playing next to Carmelo, he felt like he had something to prove by at times taking shots away from Melo, he struggles with knowing when not to shoot. Defensively hes not going to be horrible and offensively he picks up a ton of slack but who knows if he will ever commit 100% to improving as a person and as a player.

George Karl is a great coach and he got more out of JR Smith than anyone ever did but I don't know how JR will mesh with Thibs style of coaching, Thibs is probably more intense than Skiles, I doubt JR will react well to Thibs screaming at him every game in an 82 game season.


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## TheDarkPrince (May 13, 2006)

You guys do know that we still have Ronnie Brewer?
So yes JR Smith would help a lot, since we lack firepower, and the guy can flat out score. Also he's not as bad on D as some of you make it sound. He's a better scorer and defender than Kyle Korver, who helps us out when he's on. And if Smith isn't playing great D or making his shots, put Ronnie Brewer in, problem solved.



The thing that worries me, is that JR Smith can be rather hostile, and not very coachable at times. Can coach Thibs get through to him? Or will he be a loose cannon? If Thibs can get through to him, he can be this teams version of Rodman. Remember how many people thought he was a huge risk back when the Bulls signed him? Worked out pretty well in the end.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> George Karl is a great coach and he got more out of JR Smith than anyone ever did but I don't know how JR will mesh with Thibs style of coaching, Thibs is probably more intense than Skiles, I doubt JR will react well to Thibs screaming at him every game in an 82 game season.



This I worry about. Karl and Thibs' respective coaching styles are night and day.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

I think he would. He can go nuts on offense and is a better playmaker than he is given credit for. This isn't the JR Smith of his early days, he's a much better overall player now and I would be more than happy with the ball in his hands when Rose gets swarmed. Offer him the MLE if it's there and a starting spot on a contender and I think he'd come.


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

if JR smith, why not going after JC. I would argue that Crawford was more under control, a better ball handler, 3-pt shooter, and to an extent better defender (okay, he is as worst). 

Crawford may come at a discount at MLE for the maximum number of years.


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## SWIFTSLICK (Aug 22, 2009)

Top of what? The looney bin? Don't get me wrong, outstanding offensive threat. Energetic player with an inside/outside game. But he can't play a single lick of defense. Not a great fit in Thibodeau's system. Plus, I don't think Reinsdorf would appreciate his gang sign flashing (even after drilling a three) problem.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

He seems like a good fit, but I think he'd be a little too out of control (and hot n cold) for Thibs liking.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

Yeah let's get more guys like Keith Bogans who are exactly the type of player Thibs likes. Who cares if he has tattoos, the guy can play.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

If guys like Rodman, Wallace and Artest can win a title I think JR Smith can contribute to a team like the Bulls. Its all about coaching, if Thibs is as good as most people think he is, he should be able to coach borderline turds. Its not always about the x's and o's because if it was only about that Phil Jackson would not even be in the conversation of best coaches ever.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Jamal Crawford, even a 31-yr old version, would be better for this team than JR Smith. And I am NOT a fan of Crawford. At least he can take opponents off the dribble and can get hot the same way JR can. Both of them suck at D though and don't have very good shot selection, hence both are better as 6th man types. Thibs wouldn't given either one more than 25 minutes a game and may not even want to start either one. 

I put Crawford over Smith b/c of his ballhandling abilities (far superior to Smith) and he isn't a nutcase.

But ideally, we don't have to settle for either one.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> If guys like Rodman, Wallace and Artest can win a title I think JR Smith can contribute to a team like the Bulls. Its all about coaching, if Thibs is as good as most people think he is, he should be able to coach borderline turds. Its not always about the x's and o's because if it was only about that Phil Jackson would not even be in the conversation of best coaches ever.



How are Rodman, Wallace, and Artest in any way comparable to JR Smith? Just because they all have a bit of the crazy to them? Those three guys put a lot more effort into their games than JR Smith, especially Rodman and Artest.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> How are Rodman, Wallace, and Artest in any way comparable to JR Smith? Just because they all have a bit of the crazy to them? Those three guys put a lot more effort into their games than JR Smith, especially Rodman and Artest.


The point is these guy's did not put in huge effort every year they where in the NBA.

Artest was a much better teammate after leaving the Pacers and Bulls.
Wallace NEVER lived up to his abilities as a player but still turned on just enough to win. 

Why can't JR Smith turn it around? He has talent, he has shown flashes of brilliance. Like I said I don't know if anyone can turn him around especially since he din't really turn it around with George Karl but its not out the question that he might just do it with a different coach and surrounded with a different mentality of locker room players.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

no of course not , the bulls didn't lose in 5 games because keith bogans isn't JR smith .

the heat are also likely to fill one of their 2 major holes with an MLE type move so at most this is a lateral action.

the bulls need a major star to go with rose.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

We lost because the Heat swarmed Rose and we don't have anybody else capable of dribbling a basketball. I don't think we need a major star, just someone to at least make teams think about triple teaming Rose or make them pay when they do.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

garnett said:


> We lost because the Heat swarmed Rose and we don't have anybody else capable of dribbling a basketball. I don't think we need a major star, just someone to at least make teams think about triple teaming Rose or make them pay when they do.


deng cant consistently beat his man off the dribble but he can surely score if he isn't being guarded closely especially if he has a step on his man, same for boozer , bogans, boozer and noah.

the problem is at the elite level you need elite stars, real scorers...if JR couldn't get the nuggets over the top, he's not even a 30 minute a game player for them and he never has been.

bottom line he has good talent , but he doesn't put it all together, he is not an answer for what ails the bulls, he's not good enough.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

garnett said:


> We lost because the Heat swarmed Rose and we don't have anybody else capable of dribbling a basketball. I don't think we need a major star, just someone to at least make teams think about triple teaming Rose or make them pay when they do.


Yep, I definitely agree w/ this. Heck, even Kirk Hinrich at the 2-guard probably could've made a big difference. Not only is he a tremendous Wade defender, he gives another PG quality ballhandler. Not sure how much it matters that he can barely score beyond the occasional 3-pointer.


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

I'd worry about having two guys who like to dominate the ball like Rose and JR in your backcourt.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> deng cant consistently beat his man off the dribble but he can surely score if he isn't being guarded closely especially if he has a step on his man, same for boozer , bogans, boozer and noah.
> 
> the problem is at the elite level you need elite stars, real scorers...if JR couldn't get the nuggets over the top, he's not even a 30 minute a game player for them and he never has been.
> 
> bottom line he has good talent , but he doesn't put it all together, he is not an answer for what ails the bulls, he's not good enough.


If Deng can do it then why didn't he? Boozer didn't do anything but get blocked and did you just put Bogans in that sentence? I don't know what to say to that. The Nuggets went to the WCF and lost to the eventual champions and JR played a big part in them getting there.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

He'd help but I think you guys would be better off if you hustled a OJ Mayo type player. Smith is just kind of a headcase and doesn't really do anything besides shoot the ball. A lot.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

garnett said:


> If Deng can do it then why didn't he? Boozer didn't do anything but get blocked and did you just put Bogans in that sentence? I don't know what to say to that. The Nuggets went to the WCF and lost to the eventual champions and JR played a big part in them getting there.


the supporting cast in the efc

the funny things is deng played about the same.(17 and 7 )
Boozer was very uneven (avg 14 and 10 with a couple of good games and a couple of stinkers)
bogans was about the same (4.6)
it was noah who really went in the tank offensively avg. 6.0 pts per game .

they are who they are , which is a bunch of good ballplayers who play well together, a sum greater than its parts, but in the end they couldn't match the heats star power

truth be told the heat was equally hurt by wade's sudden slump, the but even a slumping wade put in nearly 19 a game and bosh poured in 23 a game augmented of course by lebron's 25.8.

JR and the nuggets were bounced in the 1st round and played less minutes than bogans does for the bulls in the process.(15.2) and 2 of those games the starting 2 afflalo didn't even play Karl just went to wilson chandler instead...i'm sorry i dont see how j.r. is supposed to be this playoff changing performer for the bulls when he ended his career with the nuggets as a marginal contributor.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

kbdullah said:


> I'd worry about having two guys who like to dominate the ball like Rose and JR in your backcourt.


JR just jacks it up, he doesn't dribble it around for 20 seconds and then shoot. He has no fear.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I don't know how close the Bulls are to the top, but I know how close JR Smith is to the deep end.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Artest was a much better teammate after leaving the Pacers and Bulls.


LOL!!!


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Rhyder said:


> LOL!!!


He won the The J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award lol, give him a break.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> Simple question, say the MLE is still available and JR Smith agrees to come here for that, is he enough to put the Bulls over the Heat and Mavs?


No. Derrick Rose is that rare player who can make defenses focus in on him. He creates space for others to sink in to and then can threaten the assist. What you want in that scenario is as many players who aren't looking to create their own shot, but can hit the open shot. You don't want a dribble penetrator next to Derrick Rose. I mean, if the player happens to have a quick move to the basket that's fine. But you want him to do as little creating as possible. You want a guy who can flat out score when Rose delivers him the ball open. A bigger Jason Terry type. He doesn't have to be as good. You also want defenders wherever possible. 

The exact kind of player you don't want is Carlos Boozer, who needs to get into a rhythm dribbling the ball to create his own shot (usually a fallaway low percentage look), isn't money when he gets the ball open and doesn't play D. To me, JR Smith is Boozer packed into a more athletic SGs body. 

Remember, the more talented team didn't win the Finals. In fact, I believe they lost because Wade creates open looks like Rose does, and Lebron can't just hit the open look. The team also seems very uncomfortable with anyone but Wade leading the charge as well. 

We need as many Trevor Arizas as we can get, obviously fit to different positions. And Rose needs to force the issue and get better at sticking the J when teams back off of him.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> No. Derrick Rose is that rare player who can make defenses focus in on him. He creates space for others to sink in to and then can threaten the assist. What you want in that scenario is as many players who aren't looking to create their own shot, but can hit the open shot. You don't want a dribble penetrator next to Derrick Rose. I mean, if the player happens to have a quick move to the basket that's fine. But you want him to do as little creating as possible. You want a guy who can flat out score when Rose delivers him the ball open. A bigger Jason Terry type. He doesn't have to be as good. You also want defenders wherever possible.
> 
> The exact kind of player you don't want is Carlos Boozer, who needs to get into a rhythm dribbling the ball to create his own shot (usually a fallaway low percentage look), isn't money when he gets the ball open and doesn't play D. To me, JR Smith is Boozer packed into a more athletic SGs body.
> 
> ...


The sort of team you just described is the NO Hornets and they're not winning anything any time soon. One playmaker and everyone else just hits open shots. Steve Kerr said in the Miami series that in a series where both defenses are amazing, it was Miami who had more players that could create something from nothing. We had one and he was constantly double and triple teamed because nobody else could do anything with the ball. Did you see what happened when Rose was triple teamed? You'd expect players to run at him to help him out but they all just stood there hoping the ball wouldn't be passed to them which happened all season long. More standstill jump shooters is not the answer and to be honest Rose could use a bit of time off the ball because it's not unlike him to have five turnovers in a quarter, or ten for the game.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

garnett said:


> The sort of team you just described is the NO Hornets and they're not winning anything any time soon. One playmaker and everyone else just hits open shots. Steve Kerr said in the Miami series that in a series where both defenses are amazing, it was Miami who had more players that could create something from nothing. We had one and he was constantly double and triple teamed because nobody else could do anything with the ball. Did you see what happened when Rose was triple teamed? You'd expect players to run at him to help him out but they all just stood there hoping the ball wouldn't be passed to them which happened all season long. More standstill jump shooters is not the answer and to be honest Rose could use a bit of time off the ball because it's not unlike him to have five turnovers in a quarter, or ten for the game.


Yep, yep, yep.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

garnett said:


> The sort of team you just described is the NO Hornets and they're not winning anything any time soon. One playmaker and everyone else just hits open shots. Steve Kerr said in the Miami series that in a series where both defenses are amazing, it was Miami who had more players that could create something from nothing. We had one and he was constantly double and triple teamed because nobody else could do anything with the ball. Did you see what happened when Rose was triple teamed? You'd expect players to run at him to help him out but they all just stood there hoping the ball wouldn't be passed to them which happened all season long. More standstill jump shooters is not the answer and to be honest Rose could use a bit of time off the ball because it's not unlike him to have five turnovers in a quarter, or ten for the game.


Yeah, welcome to the world where you have money for another playmaker, you don't get Lebron James, and instead of holding the money over for Dwight Howard, you blow it on Carlos freaking Boozer just to "get somebody." The Bulls are locked in to the team they have. A guy who provides inconsistent scoring pop and doesn't play D or play team basketball well isn't the best thing you can get. A playmaker is probably not going to be found at 5 million.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> Yeah, welcome to the world where you have money for another playmaker, you don't get Lebron James, and instead of holding the money over for Dwight Howard, you blow it on Carlos freaking Boozer just to "get somebody." The Bulls are locked in to the team they have. A guy who provides inconsistent scoring pop and doesn't play D or play team basketball well isn't the best thing you can get. A playmaker is probably not going to be found at 5 million.


I'm not sure how they're supposed to know that Dwight was leaving Orlando a year ago when he didn't even know. Sucks that we got Boozer but in fairness there's no way they could've known Dwight was going to leave or that Boozer would be that bad. I agree with you that 5 million probably isn't enough for anyone decent unless they take a pay cut, but the FO said they thought they could do better than the draft for a SG so it would be interesting to know what they have in mind.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

garnett said:


> I'm not sure how they're supposed to know that Dwight was leaving Orlando a year ago when he didn't even know. Sucks that we got Boozer but in fairness there's no way they could've known Dwight was going to leave or that Boozer would be that bad. I agree with you that 5 million probably isn't enough for anyone decent unless they take a pay cut, but the FO said they thought they could do better than the draft for a SG so it would be interesting to know what they have in mind.


Here's what I think they should know. You have X dollars to put you over the top. Once X dollars are spent on sort of a "second guy" for Derrick Rose, you're locked in to this team - meaning if you make a bad choice, you have to wait the contract out or ship it out for another bad choice. When confronted with Boozer for X dollars after you don't get Lebron James, regardless of who could come available, run.

And, if you're in Chicago and you see Dwight is going to become a free agent, it's your job to SELL him on being available. That's a big part of being a GM/team representative who is now no longer the GM, but still sort of functions as a quasi-GM. Make the sale.


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