# All-Atlantic Team



## Ps!ence_Fiction (Aug 1, 2004)

If you could make an All-Atlantic team, with the best player at each position, what would it look like.

Here's mine:

*PG - *Allen Iverson
*SG - *Vince Carter
*SF - *Paul Pierce
*PF - *Chris Bosh
*C - *Samuel Dalembert

EDIT: Also this doesn't have to work chemistry wise or anything like that, just simply the best player that plays that position in the Atlantic Division.


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

1st Team

Raef LaFrentz
Antoine Walker
Paul Pierce
Allen Iverson
Jason Kidd

2nd Team 

Samuel Dalembert
Chris Webber
Richard Jefferson
Queintin Richardson
Stephon Marbury

3rd Team

Nenad Kristic
Chris Bosh
Rickey Davis
Kyle Korver
Jamal Crawford


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## Ps!ence_Fiction (Aug 1, 2004)

Iverson is a point guard.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Ps!ence_Fiction said:


> Iverson is a point guard.


He won the MVP as a SG

AI is the best SG in the Atlantic, not the best PG.


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## Ps!ence_Fiction (Aug 1, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> He won the MVP as a SG
> 
> AI is the best SG in the Atlantic, not the best PG.


He won the MVP as a shooting gaurd almost 5 years ago. Stop saying he's a shooting guard, he's not anymore. Use some ****ing logic.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

how bout this. 

its GG FF C

stop being......eh whatever


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Ps!ence_Fiction said:


> He won the MVP as a shooting gaurd almost 5 years ago. Stop saying he's a shooting guard, he's not anymore. Use some ****ing logic.


How about you read what I wrote. I never said AI plays SG now. I said he is the best SG in the Atlantic. That means, if he played there, he would be better than Vince.

With Kidd in the Division, forcing AI to "play" PG for an all-Division team forces AI off the team.


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## ghoti (Jan 30, 2005)

Quills said:


> 1st Team
> 
> Raef LaFrentz
> Antoine Walker
> ...


I don't understand these teams.

LaFrentz is on the 1st team because I assume you think he is the best center. But the 3rd team has no PG, so what criteria are you using??


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

Quills said:


> 1st Team
> 
> Raef LaFrentz
> Antoine Walker
> ...


Well it's obvious you want J kidd on the floor at the same time as AI. I also comfortable with PP being at the 3 Walker at the 4 is debatable if you have Bosh and Shareef out there. I'd take Kristic as my first choice at center over Raef Lesoft, but that's just me.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> How about you read what I wrote. I never said AI plays SG now. I said he is the best SG in the Atlantic. That means, if he played there, he would be better than Vince.
> 
> With Kidd in the Division, forcing AI to "play" PG for an all-Division team forces AI off the team.



Calm down. He never reads what people write, he just plods along screaming. AI doesn't have a defined position because he is effective at both, we saw him switch out with snow many times just like with green and stack and on and on and on.


Anyway, good point, but I'd keep AI and Kidd on the floor at the same time. I mean I know AI is small and blabbity blah blah blah, but both of them are phenomanal passers and you know, good luck with the game against us should AI get hot.


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## krsticfan325 (May 31, 2005)

First:

PG: Allen Iverson
SG: Vince Carter
SF: Paul Pierce
PF: Shareef Abdur Rahim
C: Nenad Krstic

Don't see what the big gushing over Dalembert is. I love the guy, he's a shutdown defender, but he can't score if his life depended on it. He has no post moves, no shooting touch, and nothing offensively at all. Krstic is easily the best overall center in the Atlantic. He was better last year as a 22 year old who wasn't even expecting to play at all.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

1st team
C Samuel Dalembert
F Chris Webber 
F Paul Pierce
G Allen Iverson
G Jason Kidd

2nd team
C Raef LaFrentz
F Shareef Abdur-Rahim
F Richard Jefferson
G Vince Carter
G Stephon Marbury

3rd Team
C Nenad Krstic
F Chris Bosh
F Quentin Richardson
G Jalen Rose
G Jamal Crawford

Walker and Payton aren't going to be in the atlantic next season.


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

You People Truley Crack me up , Many of you have little Sence masqurading around like you got dollars . 

A : Dont you people relize Every Single Team that the NBA picks follows a C FF GG format like another poster mentioned ? 

B : Many of you people have brought up the fact that Marbury should be traded & therebye making Crawford the PG , Yet somebody Riffs on the my 3rd team Saying Crawford is not a PG & what is he doing there ?

C : To a lesser exrent I would go so Far as to say theres no such thing as a PG SG SF or PF there all Guards & Fowards . Besides Iverson has always been the prototype Combo Guards Ala Jerry West-Earl Monroe-Reggie Theus-Gus Johnson-Micheal Ray Richardson-Steve Francis etc .....


D : I put LaFrents as my top 1st Team Center because I feel in a game of 1 on 1 he would beat both Dalembert & Kristic . Since I belive LaFrentz is as good a defender as Dalembert is & is actully stronger to hold is ground in the post despite his flopping around . Not to mentioned a vastly supperior offencive game , to me the only thing Sammy does better then LaFrentz is being more Athletic & a better rebounder & thats pretty much it . I would put Kristic over Dalembert if Kristic was a better defender rebounder then he currently is . I Like Dalembert but people or vastly overrating to think he's going to be the Next anything like a Ben Wallace-Dikembe Mutombo-Nate Thurmond . Besides as far as I Can Remember back to Kansas LaFrentz has always played Center for the most part he might be too soft for the Spot like KVH at PF but he's a center .


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

I cant stop laughing at Paul Pierce continuing to be portrayed by street ball fans as a better player than Richard Jefferson. That's a joke. That's why Jefferson was invited to team USA twice, and Pierce will "never be invited back" after what he did at the World's. RJ can average 22 pts and 7.5 rebs with stud defense, but Paul Pierce can chuck up 25 shots a game and sit on the three point line, but hes a better player? That kills me. 

All Atlantic Team, and its not even a joke:
*
Kidd* [hands down best PG]
*Carter* [6'6 frame prevents teams from exploiting AI's size on D. Carter is one of the best in the league at passing out of the post. his post OFF. is fantastic, a great penetrator, and can shoot over the D, something Iverson has trouble with]
*Jefferson* [22, 7.5. lights out D. Blazing Speed, team player, attacks the rim. definately better than pierce, Q, Peterson for all around game]
*Shareef Abdur Rahim* [chris bosh is the only case that can be made. Shareef has the better numbers and the all-star berth that Bosh hasnt had]
*Nenad Krstic* [averaged 18 ppg against Miami. tough, great offensive game, defense improving.]


i mean its just being fair.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

kconn61686 said:


> I cant stop laughing at Paul Pierce continuing to be portrayed by street ball fans as a better player than Richard Jefferson. That's a joke. That's why Jefferson was invited to team USA twice, and Pierce will "never be invited back" after what he did at the World's. RJ can average 22 pts and 7.5 rebs with stud defense, but Paul Pierce can chuck up 25 shots a game and sit on the three point line, but hes a better player? That kills me.
> 
> All Atlantic Team, and its not even a joke:
> *
> ...


ummmmm..who do you think will win the Atlantic?? :biggrin:


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Team USA ****ed up with their selections. jefferson was probably the worst possible selection. he was starting and shooting like 12 percent from the field. he was terrible. if USA had Paul, they woulda won....Cause he can make a J, and hes just as good a defender and rebounder.

Pierce is easily the better player.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

PennyHardaway said:


> Team USA ****ed up with their selections. jefferson was probably the worst possible selection. he was starting and shooting like 12 percent from the field. he was terrible. if USA had Paul, they woulda won....Cause he can make a J, and hes just as good a defender and rebounder.
> 
> Pierce is easily the better player.


Here here!

Richard Jefferson. Remember how they tried to sell us on FG% as a reason for his selection. Man what a crock.


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

fact of the matter is, RJ is a team player. Any GM in this league would trade Paul pierce for RJ in less than a second. he does everything well on the court, including posting a 22.2 scoring average, so say what you want about shooting percentage, he scores 22.2 and still has yielded shots to players like Kenyon Martin, Jason Kidd, and Kerry Kittles in his career. 



> ummmmm..who do you think will win the Atlantic??


who do I think will win the Atlantic? well myself and the rest of the NBA will pick NJ. I mean, 4 all-star calibur players in the same lineup with a good bench and great leaders? there is no reason to pick anyone else.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

If Boston trades Pierce for jefferson they go into the ****in crapper and Jersey turns into a title contender

get off his nuts


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

Prince is better than Jefferson so don't even talk about Pierce


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## The_Black_Pinoy (Jul 6, 2005)

NYKBaller said:


> Prince is better than Jefferson so don't even talk about Pierce


You mean Prince the singer right? because, if you are talking about the basketball player you are very mistaken, my friend.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

id also take prince over RJ


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

The_Black_Pinoy said:


> You mean Prince the singer right? because, if you are talking about the basketball player you are very mistaken, my friend.


According to Charlie Murphy Prince the singer may in fact be better than Richard Jefferson.


Wait Wait wait, did I just read that someone here thinks that Trading Paul Pierce for Richard Jefferson is a good idea?

Give me a break. That's retarded. What the hell?


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

^ i like the way you think. id give u rep points for the charlie murphy true hollywood story reference but i have no idea how to


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## Dooch (Aug 1, 2005)

kconn61686 said:


> I cant stop laughing at Paul Pierce continuing to be portrayed by street ball fans as a better player than Richard Jefferson. That's a joke. That's why Jefferson was invited to team USA twice, and Pierce will "never be invited back" after what he did at the World's. RJ can average 22 pts and 7.5 rebs with stud defense, but Paul Pierce can chuck up 25 shots a game and sit on the three point line, but hes a better player? That kills me.
> 
> All Atlantic Team, and its not even a joke:
> *
> ...


Exactly! New Jersey Nets 2005-2006 Atlantic Division Champs''! Get it straight..


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## Noodfan (Jun 25, 2005)

PennyHardaway said:


> id also take prince over RJ


Even me too. I'm very happy with RJ but c'mon we are talking about pierce. Think about Kidd-VC-Pierce. No doubt champions


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## xavisxavis (Apr 2, 2005)

Noodfan said:


> Even me too. I'm very happy with RJ but c'mon we are talking about pierce. Think about Kidd-VC-Pierce. No doubt champions


Well...I dunno. On paper, Kidd - VC - Pierce would be the best thing ever to happen, but I think I'll be more happy with RJ. I don't seem to like Pierce's attitude, and besides, I think he'd rather retire or something than come and play in New Jersey.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

PennyHardaway said:


> ^ i like the way you think. id give u rep points for the charlie murphy true hollywood story reference but i have no idea how to



Its all gravy I have no idea how to do any of that stuff.


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## Noodfan (Jun 25, 2005)

xavisxavis said:


> Well...I dunno. On paper, Kidd - VC - Pierce would be the best thing ever to happen, but I think I'll be more happy with RJ. I don't seem to like Pierce's attitude, and besides, *I think he'd rather retire or something than come and play in New Jersey*.


I didn't understand. Why?


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## fabol0us16 (Aug 1, 2005)

Quills said:


> 1st Team
> 
> Raef LaFrentz
> Antoine Walker
> ...


wtf? walker lafrentz and pierce? more like vince carter over pierce


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

I dont think pierce is a fan of jersey, they had that rivarly..i mean, the nets always won, but there was always tension.

*remembers paul leading the biggest comeback in nba history against jersey*


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

I have no problem putting Vince over Pierce since I feel Vince can be a much more Impactful players then Pierce . However I've Also seen Vince Sulk his way through 2.5 seasons so just because he Found himself again after .5 a year in a New Setting . I'm not going to cash his check untill I know he's got Money & Right now I'm not sure if Vince is Holding or Fronting .


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

PG Allen Iverson
SG Vince Carter
SF Paul Pierce
PF Chris Webber
C Raef LaFrentz

Sorry, but I for one don't see New Jersey running away with it this year. Kidd is another year older and have what might be the worst defensive front court in the NBA. Boston will still be a threat particularly if Al Jefferson comes in and shows what he's truly capable of. Philadelphia has a pretty stocked team too with Iguodala being as promising as he is and Iverson and Webber should finally click. The Knicks are completely wild as nobody really knows what Larry Brown will do, but they certainly should be much better than what they were last year. Come on, the guy lead the Clippers to the playoffs. Toronto is really the only weak looking team, but I for one think they have a decent young team. Bosh should continue to rise and I think 20/8 could easily be in reach for him this season. Also, I am probably the only one who actually likes the Villanueva pick, but I think his style of play will compliment Bosh's very well. Three years and I think they're the team to beat. All in all, I could very well see Webber being usurped by Al Jefferson or Bosh. As far as Richard Jefferson goes, he won't even be the best Jefferson in the east this year, never mind the best three in the Atlantic. He shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Paul Pierce. If Iverson switches to the two, then he knocks off Carter and Kidd takes his place at the one again.


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

how do the nets have the worst defensive front court?

Krstic- decent defender
SAR- below average
RJ- stud defender
Collins- rated among top 5 in defensive efficiency among centers
Cliff- called by Garnett "my toughest matchup and best defensive big man"

plus they are looking to add one more like Steven Hunter or Malik Allen.

thats weak as he11, especially considering the Nets were a top 5 defensive team and the past 5 NJ teams were all great defensively. Awful comment. And even if they were terrible defensively, which they arent, what teams in their division have any kind of low post scoring.... one team, Toronto, but they dont have the talent to play with NJ anyway....


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Kristic was ranked bottom ten and Clifford Robinson was ranked second worst in defensive plus/minus at their respective position. Collins is good, but he's off the bench and Jefferson doesn't really do a whole lot of his work in the post. He's plays more perimiter defense. If you're even trying to insinuate that Jefferson is a low post defender than you might want to get a CT-scan done or something. One player in Collins is a good defender. Whoopie. It doesn't seem to matter now, because they've been dealt one crappy card with Shareef's knee. Speaking as a Knick fan, I would try and find someone else, as we all know how wonderfully it went for the Knicks when they traded for their nice injury prone power forward.


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

except, you said front court. Richard Jefferson is a front court player. Granted he may see more players on the perimeter, but at the same time, grabbed 7.5 rebounds per game last year, making him a legit paint area defender.

Clifford Robinson may have been ranked bottom 10 defender due to efficiency, but as you know, defense is a team game, and without any depth on the floor alot of times for NJ, team defense can crumble. You can say anything you want about stats, but the entire NBA regards Cliff as a good defender, and even KG, the 2nd best player in the game called him "THE BEST", so right there, ya gotta believe KG over a computerized stat that involves an incredible amount of variables. Latrell Spreewell was ranked in his bottom 5 for this stat, and we all know Spree is a good defender, so clearly, there are variables.

Also, where did u find Krstic being in the bottom 10? I would like to see.


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

> Speaking as a Knick fan, I would try and find someone else, as we all know how wonderfully it went for the Knicks when they traded for their nice injury prone power forward.


as a knicks fan, Im sure you wouldnt want SAR playing in NJ, that would only make sense. But Injury prone? Not at all. SAR has only missed 28 games in his NBA career, and they all came from an elbow injury last year. So in fact, his knee isnt injury prone because he has never even missed an NBA game due to knee injury. The press release says it is left over material from a High School injury. SAR made the Olympic and All Star teams with it, so nothing really is wrong with it, it is just a cause for concern. There is absolutely no way SAR is injury prone, how do u figure that?


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

yeah he may be Soft but I don't Remember Rahim ever being injured


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

but then again, it is just soft according to your own opinion. you might consider a player soft because he signed for discount money on the team you hate, but look at what Shareef has done in terms of being there for his team. Up untill this year, never missed a game or practice. Easily could have demanded a trade for Portland but played through it like a good team player would. Career 20 points and 8 rebounds, ranking him among the tops at his position, and that comes from a player looking to go to the block and finish or go to the line. His 8 rebounds are nice on top of that. So soft only goes to your opinion, but you have to understand Shareef goes to the block and gets it done while grabbing boards on both ends. And say what you want about defense, NJ is going to be a great defensive team, the same way they were the last 5 years, the way Lawrence Frank gets his teams to play


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

Naw it has nothing to do with him in NJ , I'm glad he's on NJ Actully this means they wont make the Playoffs , wakkka wakka wakka .


But seriously SAR has never been a player that srikes fear into my heart when the Knicks play him , sure he had that huge game against us in Vancouver back in 2001 . but for the most part he's never been a player I worried about for what ever reason & he's played with good PG's before so thats not a reason . I can't really put my finger on it but I just dont like him nor do I ever worry about him , I feel about him much the Same way I felt about players like a Robert Parrish-Scottie Pippen-Danny Manning-Keith Van Horn-Byron Scott-Mark Jackson-Jamal Mashburn-Carlos Boozer-Steve Nash-Allan Houston-Jamal Crawford-Penny Hardaway-Tim Thomas-Peja Stoyakovic-etc... . I mean there All good players I just don't worry about them as much as i would worry about there teammates , even though Nash shoots a little to good for you not to worry about but he gives up what ever points he score on defence .


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

kconn61686 said:


> as a knicks fan, Im sure you wouldnt want SAR playing in NJ, that would only make sense. But Injury prone? Not at all. SAR has only missed 28 games in his NBA career, and they all came from an elbow injury last year. So in fact, his knee isnt injury prone because he has never even missed an NBA game due to knee injury. The press release says it is left over material from a High School injury. SAR made the Olympic and All Star teams with it, so nothing really is wrong with it, it is just a cause for concern. There is absolutely no way SAR is injury prone, how do u figure that?


I wasn't particularly calling Shareef injury prone, I was just stating that McDyess's collapse marked the dawning of some of the worst years ever for Knicks fans. I'm sure that given what the Nets have, there has to be SOMEONE else that fits their style of play and doesn't have knee problems. McDyess seemed okay, too. Look how that turned out. I guess I really should have said in questionable health. Denver has both Nene and Martin, maybe they could go for Nene? New Orleans has power forwards to spare. There are so many other options open in the offseason that they could probably pull something else off.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

kconn61686 said:


> I cant stop laughing at Paul Pierce continuing to be portrayed by street ball fans as a better player than Richard Jefferson. That's a joke. That's why Jefferson was invited to team USA twice, and Pierce will "never be invited back" after what he did at the World's. RJ can average 22 pts and 7.5 rebs with stud defense, but Paul Pierce can chuck up 25 shots a game and sit on the three point line, but hes a better player? That kills me.


Do you mind starting a Paul Pierce vs. Richard Jefferson thread in the Nets forum? I would love to change your mind.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

"Paul Pierce can chuck up 25 shots a game and sit on the three point line, but hes a better player? That kills me."

pierce took 14.9 shots per game last season. so, get your facts straight, cause thats some god damn efficient scoring. .455 shooting percentage. 22 points per.


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

well, is steve francis efficient? is marbury? those are 2 players, like Pierce, whose styles wont fit into a great team. Guards that control the ball so much like that dont get it done, and there was a reason team USA wouldnt invite Pierce back after the assanine shot selection he had and the lack of defense he played.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

what are you talking about? Francis sucks. he shoots a terrible percentage and has a rediculously low assists total. 

stop coming with different, dumber arguments after you've been shot down about 12 times already. stay on the nets board

and Pierce was the only scorer on that US team, they kept feeding him in Isolations with nobody cutting in the lane, nothing. George Karl limited that team, it had nothing to do with Paul. Karl called the plays, not Paul. I guess Ben Wallace, Ray Allen, Andre Miller arent team players either, cause they havent been invited back either.

what is your argument?

Jefferson was absolutely terrible in the olympics, 50 times worse then pierce was. SO i dont see how this olympic argument holds any weight.

Paul is not a chucker in the NBA, i showed you the numbers, your just tryna justify it with any type of BS. 

again, stay in the nets board with your Jefferson loving.


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

this isnt jefferson loving, its knick fan denial.

george karl only called isolation plays for paul pierce.... that's all? nobody else did anything but watch pierce shoot.... thats unheard of

jefferson didnt play well in the olympics, but did anyone? i mean, the greatest basketball brain on earth [larry brown] i keep hearing, started RJ over the likes of shawn marion, so maybe RJ is a pretty decent player. now you cant tell me paul pierce is better than shawn marion, can you?

also, if pierce is such a solid building block, unselfish player, how come boston wanted to deal him so badly? just answer those questions so you can feel like you shot someone down again


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Paul Pierce is better then Marion. Marion cannot create a shot for himself, at all. marion is a better defender and a better rebounder, but thats where it ends. and its not even that big a difference on D or rebounding, since Paul is one of the best rebounding sg-sf's in the NBA and is an underrated defender. 

Knick fan denial? last i checked, Pierce plays in boston, and New York sports fans hate Boston. so i dont get it.

and yes, thats what they did in the olympics. if you dont believe me, then ask on the NBA General board what happened in the US Championships in Indiana, they will tell you about Karl, not Paul.

i think your a nets fan, in denial about Richard. Face it, hes not much of a ballhandler, a good shooter, a good defender, and a good athlete. He cant create shot opportunities like real star players can, like your very own Jason kidd. He doesnt command double teams, he doesnt make his teammates better. at best, hes a good third option on a great team.

and the nets are great, dont get me wrong, but your overrating richard right now. Saying hes better then paul is like saying hes better then vince


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## dynamiks (Aug 15, 2005)

Quills said:


> 1st Team
> 
> Raef LaFrentz
> Antoine Walker
> ...



Your so lost. Bosh should be on the first team. Chris Bosh is a center according to the All star ballet he is listed as a center. And I know he's better than Reaf Lafrentz and Samual Dalembert.


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## Brolic (Aug 6, 2005)

Paul Pierce is horrible defencivly and that's on a team that doesnt play defence so he's really horrible
I like Richard Jefferson Im not gonna say hes better than Pierce they have different roles.
RJ *is* a good defender and his stats go up every year.
He shoots a good percentage and his jump shot improves every year.
He played point forward and when Kidd returned he still did.
a good athlete? Ill let that one slide
I see why you think Pierce is better than Marion bc he can be the focal point on offense. The faults he has are turnovers and defense
Marion has been more like RJ in that he doesnt need isolations called for him


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

paul pierce is a good defender. He always had averaged around a block a game and a steal or two. Paul is a good man defender, and a help defender. think about what you just said...... Why is paul a bad defender to you? Since when do teams burn him on a regular basis? i dont see it.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

> Paul Pierce is horrible defencivly and that's on a team that doesnt play defence so he's really horrible


You must be talking about some guy in the NBDL.


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## Brolic (Aug 6, 2005)

Im talking about Paul Pierce of the Boston Celtics
If you disagree on his defence watch him get burned by the opposing player


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

kamaze said:


> Im talking about Paul Pierce of the Boston Celtics
> If you disagree on his defence watch him get burned by the opposing player


For one I am as big of a Pierce basher as they come, but seriously, c'mon. You need to find some better gametape buddy


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## ravor44 (Feb 26, 2005)

Quills said:


> 1st Team
> 
> Raef LaFrentz
> Antoine Walker
> ...



Where's Vince?


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## sportkingJSP13 (Jul 11, 2005)

Ps!ence_Fiction said:


> If you could make an All-Atlantic team, with the best player at each position, what would it look like.
> 
> Here's mine:
> 
> ...


i agree


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## sportkingJSP13 (Jul 11, 2005)

ravor44 said:


> Where's Vince?


exactly my point. that is the reason i agreed with the 1st one


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