# JO and Moon for Marion and Banks done deal



## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

ESPN has it reported that this deal is dne and awaiting league approval


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

I am OK with this deal providing we use the cap space this summer to sign a legit starting wing. With the progress Bargnani has made he and Bosh make up a nice big man tandem. Jose and Roko will be a solid one two punch at the point next year. Kapono and Joey are showing that they are legit 7th-10th men in the league and AP is a great vet to have. Signing a good quality wing player and our lottery pick will round the team out nicely......only time will tell though.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

Meh, I dunno what will happen with this team. We'll be playing faster since Marion excels in the up and down game but Bosh and Bargnani arent at their best playing that way. We'll probably see Marion a lot at the 4 spot considering now we dont have much depth inside and it'll facilitate that fast pace which BC has always liked. At least Marion is a player who doesnt need the ball in his hands to be effective, which was drastically needed on this team. I guess we'll see what develops from here on out. I still think theres another deal to be made before the deadline, not sure where though. We're now lacking in terms of interior defense and depth, maybe thats where we'll target, but again we'll see.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

NeoSamurai said:


> Meh, I dunno what will happen with this team. We'll be playing faster since Marion excels in the up and down game but Bosh and Bargnani arent at their best playing that way. We'll probably see Marion a lot at the 4 spot considering now we dont have much depth inside and it'll facilitate that fast pace which BC has always liked. At least Marion is a player who doesnt need the ball in his hands to be effective, which was drastically needed on this team. I guess we'll see what develops from here on out. I still think theres another deal to be made before the deadline, not sure where though. *We're now lacking in terms of interior defense and depth, maybe thats where we'll target, but again we'll see*.


With Hump out with the broken leg we are thin up front....maybe we throw Jawai into the fire and see what he can do with some minutes....not like we are going anwhere this year anyway!


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

Good trade for both teams but I like it for us more because of the flexibility it give us going into the off-season , Miami looks good and can be a top 3-4 seed in the east as long as JO healthy


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

On the surface of this trade we got rooked. The Heat badly needed a true C for the playoffs and got a defensive stud in JO. They also get a very cheap wing who can be very productive when motivated. Pat Riley and a contract year should motivate Moon to play harder consistently. And they jettison an ugly contract nobody would touch.

Raps are forced to take on Banks contract which is a ton of money for a guy who likely never cracks our rotation. So we will be paying an end of bench guy over 4 mill. I still do not trust BC not to overpay to keep Marion this summer.

On the other hand you would assume Moon gets no more run this year in Toronto with Marion here anyway. And if we sign a quality starting wing this summer we don't need him next year either. But having Moon as your 11th or 12th guy would be a nice cheap asset.

I guess the important thing is that we become a player in a FA year when no other teams are willing to spend money. We should not have to overpay. And may be shocked by how good a player we can grab in a trade this summer if teams really need to cut costs.

Trade should have been JO and cash for Marion. Or JO + Moon + cash for Marion and a min contract scrub expiring. I think we could have used Moon in another trade to help unload Kap or someone.


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## RapsFan (Feb 4, 2003)

The trade is good, although it took way too long to complete, but apparently we also sold a future first round pick to Miami. I guess we shouldn't be surprised with Colangelo's history. It annoys me. That pick could still be top 10 when it's given up. His owners have something to do with him not wanting to have a guarentee a contract to a first round pick, but it's making me wonder if he trades them so he doesn't look bad drafting. I bet he would have traded our number one pick where we slected Bargnani if he wasn't so new to the job. Essentially, we traded CV, who could have been a starting 3 for us, for Marcus Banks. I was excited when Colangelo was first hired, but he definitely has regressed us.


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## lucc19 (Feb 24, 2005)

Colangeo is TRASH!!!!! bosh is the problem with this team.... we should have traded him, JO has been nothing but pure CLASS, since he has came here. now we dont have a true C... NO INSIDE D, no one to block shots....

i said it before Colangeo isn't a good GM... 
TRADE BOSH - 0.6 BPG (for a STARTING ****ING PF)!!!!

Keep JO - 1.7 BPG


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

Would Ben Gordon come to Toronto for 15 million per over 5-6 years? If so, I'd be on board. Hes really the only UFA this year that really intrigues me and is still young enough to be a part of our core. I'd rather overpay for him than Marion who'll be 31/32 this year and relies too much on athleticism to be an effective player. Plus, hes regressed statistically since 2005.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

NeoSamurai said:


> Would Ben Gordon come to Toronto for 15 million per over 5-6 years?


Why would you give that to Ben? hes an undersize 2


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

lucc19 said:


> Colangeo is TRASH!!!!! bosh is the problem with this team.... we should have traded him, JO has been nothing but pure CLASS, since he has came here. now we dont have a true C... NO INSIDE D, no one to block shots....
> 
> i said it before Colangeo is ****... everyone said i didn't know ****... now look, what the **** good is cap space if no one wants to sign a deal... RAPS just ****ed themselfs.
> 
> ...


Bosh is a poor shot blocker, but Andrea has shown this year that he is decent when playing the 5 spot regularly...over 1 per game....and for the record Bosh is at .9 not .6

At 22 mil on a loosing team do you think we need to have an injury prone shot blocker on the team vs. a young power forward who is an allstar? I have not liked the way Bosh has played this year, but I would take him over O'neal ot Marion.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

Mr_B said:


> Why would you give that to Ben? hes an undersize 2


Microwave scorer who can take the big shot for you at the end of games. Can excel in the up and down scoring style that it looks like we're going to play. Hes undersized, but if defense is clearly not going to be addressed on the team and we'll be looking to bomb the opposition out of the arena, might as well get one of the better scorers in the game. 

If youre paying him that money, then you'd give him 20 shots a night. If he shoots 20 a night, 25 points per game isnt out of question.


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## a_i_4_life (Dec 24, 2004)

so who is the back up C/PF now? Jawai and Humph?


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## RapsFan (Feb 4, 2003)

a_i_4_life said:


> so who is the back up C/PF now? Jawai and Humph?


Don't forget Big Jake :sarcasm:


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

NeoSamurai said:


> Microwave scorer who can take the big shot for you at the end of games. Can excel in the up and down scoring style that it looks like we're going to play. Hes undersized, but if defense is clearly not going to be addressed on the team and we'll be looking to bomb the opposition out of the arena, might as well get one of the better scorers in the game.
> 
> If youre paying him that money, then you'd give him 20 shots a night. If he shoots 20 a night, 25 points per game isnt out of question.


Minus the big shot you just described Delfino, Also we now have 4 PG Jose,Roko,Banks, Solo something gonna give if there ain't another deal coming then I feel Solo gonna get waived


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

I wonder if teh !st round pick is super protected....Like top 28 in 09, top 25 in 10, top 22 in 11, top 20 in 2012....it ****ing better be


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

billfindlay10 said:


> I wonder if teh !st round pick is super protected....Like top 28 in 09, top 25 in 10, top 22 in 11, top 20 in 2012....it ****ing better be


Lottery protected till 2015 or until Toronto make the playoffs what ever happens first


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

Mr_B said:


> Minus the big shot you just described Delfino, Also we now have 4 PG Jose,Roko,Banks, Solo something gonna give if there ain't another deal coming then I feel Solo gonna get waived


You just compared Carlos Delfino to Ben Gordon. 

Delfino would be lucky to break over 10 points in a game. Gordon can score that in half a quarter. Again, undersized isnt the question - if youre going to play a style of game thats emphasizing efficient scoring at a fast pace, then theres no one better in the league than Gordon at doing that. Sure, we'd have the smallest backcourt in the league, but then again we'd be looking to score 105+ per night. You will need to overpay to get Gordon, but as a SG he would fill the scorer role nicely.


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## lucc19 (Feb 24, 2005)

> Bosh is a poor shot blocker, but Andrea has shown this year that he is decent when playing the 5 spot regularly...over 1 per game....and for the record Bosh is at .9 not .6
> 
> At 22 mil on a loosing team do you think we need to have an injury prone shot blocker on the team vs. a young power forward who is an allstar? I have not liked the way Bosh has played this year, but I would take him over O'neal ot Marion.


whats i was trying to say is... bosh does not make people around him better... and his D is almost as bad as Jose, now we should ahve traded bosh, because we could have gotta alot for him... right now we pretty much gave JO away for nothing... we know Marion is not going to sign, and he does nothing for us... now we have more problems.

i said keep JO cuz he has been one of the best players this year for the Raptors... and when he's on the court he makes people better. somthing bosh does not do.


I don't agree with what BC is doing


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

And thus goes our already weak interior defense and rebounding (or lack thereof).
This trade is still to be decided for I can't judge how much of a difference Marion will make.

This deal is purely made so we can sign a big name this summer and make a final push at making noise in the East and convince Bosh to stay.

So far B.C. has missed the mark on almost everything he's done as a GM in Toronto.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

in my life as a raptor fan, i've never been more angry. this is outrageous. i'll leave it at that. 

peace


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

The first round pick is really a rip. I'm tired of giving away first rounder no matter what pick it is.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Damn, I hate this from Toronto's angle.... Love it for Miami.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

on the FAN they just said pick is only lotto protected.

This could be the worst season ever if we actually somehow slip into the 8 spot.

Another first round pick thrown away. Unreal how BC is totally screwing up the rebuild when he walked into an ideal situation.

Where does that leave us? CharlieV, Rasho, and 2 first round picks for Marion? or if Marion walks then its all for capspace which we already had when BC showed up here. Beautiful.

That is the 3rd first round pick we have just thrown away for BC if you count the ridiculous NY trade with Jalen. 3 first round picks that could be stacking us with young talent and trade assets.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

lucky777s said:


> Where does that leave us? CharlieV, Rasho, and 2 first round picks for Marion? or if Marion walks then its all for capspace which we already had when BC showed up here. Beautiful.
> .


You can't think like that your only sampling a peice of the pie , why not go back further and link Charlie V and Rasho(who came from freeing up vince contract)for Vince its pointless to think this way, also if we grab the 8th its not all that bad this draft is project to be a weak draft year anyway and we got 3 million to Buy a mid-to late first rounder anyway I don't get the doom and gloom the positives are just as equal as the negatives


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

I'm shocked that you guys didn't at least ask for Jor-El Anthony. It's not like we would have broken the deal over him. He's as good as Diop and he only makes $700K. You could have used him after trading away Jermaine and with us having Magloire, O'Neal, Blount, and Anthony we probably would have obliged.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

Great birthday present for me. I found out when I was buying new basketball shoes. Can't wait to see him on the raptors. Marion is going to resign, I don't know why you guys are all writing him off, he's only 30.


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## A_wildstabatanything (Jun 18, 2003)

Colangelo is a terrible GM. Bad move after bad move... look past the nametag & PR skills and you'll see he's even worse than Babcock.

The Raptors are forced to re-sign Marion now. With Banks and Kapono eating up over 10 million of space they'd only have 12-14 million to spend this summer... and that's if they renounce the rights to Marion, Graham, Parker, Delfino, Voskhul, and their first round pick. They wouldn't be able to use the MLE either.

My guess is Marion will be back for 10-12, Delfino will return, and we'll spend some of the MLE on a big.

Next year's lineup:

Calderon / Ukic / Banks
Delfino / Draft Pick
Marion / Kapono
Bosh / Hump
Bargnani / FA signing / Jawai


We better have one hell of a draft.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

I like Marion for Toronto, but it does create some more holes. The defense up front with Bargs and Bosh is terrible.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

lucc19 said:


> Colangeo is TRASH!!!!! bosh is the problem with this team.... we should have traded him, JO has been nothing but pure CLASS, since he has came here. now we dont have a true C... NO INSIDE D, no one to block shots....
> 
> i said it before Colangeo is ****... everyone said i didn't know ****... now look, what the **** good is cap space if no one wants to sign a deal... RAPS just ****ed themselfs.
> 
> ...


Ya, trade bosh because he isn't avereging enough blocks. I can tell you are such a casual fan.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

F*ck BC, why did we need to give up the pick?????? BC just loves giving away the picks...what a doufas. Horrible trade because of the pick.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

Well if Marion doesn't amount to much, look at it like JO's deal expires sooner.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

You guys should have gotten Jor-El. He easily could have replaced what O'Neal was giving you. However, you have nobody on your team that can give you what Marion is going to give you. If it doesn't work out let him walk and sign a free agent this summer. It's just leaving yourselves thin at center that I don't understand in this deal because you didn't have to...


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

So BC gets us into the playoffs 2 out of 3 years and all of a sudden hes a bad GM? I don't get the backlash, some these post are based off emotion its not that bad of a deal even with the first since it protected and still allows the team to build and were in the position to buy another , don't forget theres more deals to come with Still have trading pieces in Kap,AP, and maybe Bosh chill out people


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

Mr_B said:


> So BC gets us into the playoffs 2 out of 3 years and all of a sudden hes a bad GM? I don't get the backlash, some these post are based off emotion its not that bad of a deal even with the first since it protected and still allows the team to build and were in the position to buy another , don't forget theres more deals to come with Still have trading pieces in Kap,AP, and maybe Bosh chill out people


Yea, I love being a mediocare 8th seed. Awesome job BC.


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

I don't think we did good in this trade. 

Raptors Heat
JO > Marion
Moon > Banks

Although we gain capspace, we lost a 1st round pick. I think for BC and maybe MLSE, capspace flexibility is more valuable than talent now and in the future. I can't reason the trade any other way. 

I really liked JO, I thought he was really good defensively (blocking shot, taking charges, getting rebounds). He added some much needed toughness inside. Now we have to depend on Bosh and Bargnani defending. Marion is a good defender, but I thought Moon was also good. Plus Moon was getting good at shooting the ball ... improving different areas of his game. 

Wade + Moon + Beasley + Haslem + O'Neal is a good lineup. 
Calderon + Parker + Marion + Bosh + Bargnani is ok, but not as good. 

sigh. Good luck JO, you are a class individual.


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## chocolove (Apr 4, 2006)

Its funny how as soon as the Raps traded Moon people are saying how hes pretty good and hes improving. The fact is, more often than not hes gonna take bad shots, the kind where the ball gets swung to him he'll take a few dribbles and jack it up. After he misses he'll have a giant smile on his face and run back down the floor to play some weak *** defense.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

ballocks said:


> in my life as a raptor fan, i've never been more angry. this is outrageous. i'll leave it at that.
> 
> peace


Bobcock getting fired was a close second for me.

But this absolutely takes the cake. I'm with you ballocks. It was not a pleasant car ride home.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

chocolove said:


> Its funny how as soon as the Raps traded Moon people are saying how hes pretty good and hes improving. The fact is, more often than not hes gonna take bad shots, the kind where the ball gets swung to him he'll take a few dribbles and jack it up. After he misses he'll have a giant smile on his face and run back down the floor to play some weak *** defense.


Moon is ****. But O'Neal is still, without a doubt in my mind, the best player in this deal.

And we give up a pick.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

osman said:


> Yea, I love being a mediocare 8th seed. Awesome job BC.


Who said there an 8 seed? the team still in a position to rebuild quickly, if BC makes the right move I guess you would prefer to have Babcock back I rather have BC one thing I give him credit for is when ever he makes a mistake hes quick to fix it Jones, Dixion,O'neal, Sam etc




changv10 said:


> JO > Marion
> Moon > Banks


JO and marion about even but there more security on our side because Shawn not a heath risk and plays more our style and I'd take Banks over moon , Moon very athletic but his basketball IQ is very low and was a liability on Offense it was like playing 4 on 5 , he refused to drive for some reason and teams backed off him when it came to shooting for what ever reason he took a step back this season 



changv10 said:


> Although we gain capspace, we lost a 1st round pick. I think for BC and maybe MLSE, capspace flexibility is more valuable than talent now and in the future. I can't reason the trade any other way.


What are you talking about here the Pick is protected we Still have it, with this one move the Raps gain capspace & flexibility and makes them a major player in the 09 free agent period OR they can let Marion walk, Draft a Wing and sit on the capspace till 2010 tons of options here



changv10 said:


> I really liked JO, I thought he was really good defensively (blocking shot, taking charges, getting rebounds). He added some much needed toughness inside. Now we have to depend on Bosh and Bargnani defending.


I agree here I liked JO he was want we needed defensively but for some reason he couldn't mesh with Bosh and with Barg seeing the light this year on Offense and Defense plus he meshed better with Bosh it made JO expendable plus when you look at how the Raps were losing games it was always the SG/SF position that would do us in SG and SF would have big games against us


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

I still think you guys should have pushed for Joel Anthony if you were to give up the 1st aswell. Joel could have been a solid back-up or sumthing here, not too sure on your roster but he could play a role.

Otherwise I'd have kept out the 1st if at all possible, but I guess not.

Anyway, great trade for the Heat, hopefully Marion gives you something too.

Good luck. :cheers:


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

The only thing I'm disappointed about is the pick. I don't mind getting rid of JO as he is injury prone. Moon is nothing more than a 10th guy on an average team, and with him gone it gives more consistent pt for Joey Graham.


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## toprofx (Jan 13, 2007)

Don't mind the trade so much. I like the fact that we have flexibility going into 09 because we really have no shot at getting a big time guy in 2010. This allows us to pick up some one who can really help us if Marion doesn't pan out. Second Moon was a scrub, getting Banks is a good insurance policy in case one of our PG's go down. Better than having AP run the point. 

My only issue is the pick. Seems like BC just gives them away, would the trade not go down if we said no? Doubt it. Either way its protected so, its not that bad. We get 3 mill in cash which can buy us a pick if necessary.

All in all, fair trade imo. 

The only area I have concern is our rebounding. Remember 2 yrs ago when we couldn't get a board, well, that's back. JO was brought in for defensive toughness and rebounding. Moon's best attribute was his rebounding, now he's gone. This is my main concern and we'll all see how bad we are in this dept. 

I wish we would have got Anthony in the trade, we could've used him. We're gonna get out rebounded by 10 a game. Oh well.


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## a_i_4_life (Dec 24, 2004)

the pick that we gave up, kills me


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

The rebounding shouldn't be too much of an issue. Marion not too long ago averaged 10 rpg year after year. Even this year he is averaging close to 9 boards a game. With Bargnani getting better grabbing boards it should be at least even for the rest of the year. The problem is next year when Marion leaves who do we have to fill in the void.

I am hoping that we can sign Marion for about 8 mil a year. With the economy being this bad it might be possible next season if other teams lowball him. Marion still has plenty of basketball left in him and if we keep him signed he can anchor our perimeter defense for the next few years.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Mr_B said:


> Who said there an 8 seed? the team still in a position to rebuild quickly, if BC makes the right move I guess you would prefer to have Babcock back I rather have BC one thing I give him credit for is when ever he makes a mistake hes quick to fix it Jones, Dixion,O'neal, Sam etc


I think the point was that he came into a perfect situation to build a great team. He had all the right parts, he had cap space, he had everything a rebuilding team needs. And in three years, he got us into a spot where we want to rebuild, and we can't even make the playoffs. We just built a few years ago when he got here, we shouldn't have to rebuild right away. He's done a poor job.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I wonder if the TO fans would boo JO when he comes back to Toronto. I hope they don't, it wasn't his fault that he got moved around. He never once asked to be traded.


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## a_i_4_life (Dec 24, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> I wonder if the TO fans would boo JO when he comes back to Toronto. I hope they don't, it wasn't his fault that he got moved around. He never once asked to be traded.


i agree, even like when the rumours first started, he could've easily told Toronto to trade him, but he's a true professional, unlike someone that use to wear the Toronto jersey


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

Ras said:


> I think the point was that he came into a perfect situation to build a great team. He had all the right parts, he had cap space, he had everything a rebuilding team needs. And in three years, he got us into a spot where we want to rebuild, and we can't even make the playoffs. We just built a few years ago when he got here, we shouldn't have to rebuild right away. He's done a poor job.


Then by your theory Dr.Buss in LA and Pat Riley in Miami has/are doing a poor jobs as well. Look around the Nba this is process that quite normal heres two examples since 03 Mia went from 8 seed to NBA championship to mediocre to absolute trash and now their one on the best teams in the east it took 2 years after the championship to rebuild their team.

After LA got rid of shaq they went from missing the playoffs to 8 seed to 7 seed to finals apperence it took LA about 2-3 years to get back on track as well after being on top 

Now look at our Situation we went from Bad to 3 seed to 6 seed to possibly missing the playoffs its apart of the cycle in a cap driven league its hard to stay on top for long. BC in the same position now than he was when he first got here and now he has better options to work with compare this team and cap room to the one when BC first got here hes way ahead of the curb which is why I don't expect our down period to be that long all the chips are there


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## lucc19 (Feb 24, 2005)

mo76 said:


> Ya, trade bosh because he isn't avereging enough blocks. I can tell you are such a casual fan.


buddy i know my ball ok... i said trade bosh cuz he has no D and does not make players around him better.

I don't like Bosh and you


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

This was a bad trade. Riley fleeced BC. Not like it cripples us or anything disastrous, but the truth is the truth. Riley put BCs nuts in a vise.

When we bought JO we paid TJ, Rasho, Baston plus a first. No junk or bad contracts. When we sold JO we also have to give up a first, and probably a second round pick as well and the only thing we might end up with is cap space and a bad contract for a scrub that can't get off the bench anywhere he goes. 

Moon and the first would be a very nice sweetener to a trade if we wanted to unload Kapono. We have limited our ability to make that kind of move.

And one of the reasons we are in cap trouble is because we dont' have enough talent on reasonable rookie scale deals. Because we give away too many picks. And you need to make 4 or 5 first round picks in order to find that one gem that drops to you.

I have to think that we could have found a crappy deal like this on draft day. We could have at least waited until Wed and tried to bluff Riley that we have no intention of giving up a pick here. The Heat need JO to do any playoff damage. And they were not going to get a pick out of any other team. Not SAC that is for sure. They supposedly did not even want to take Banks back. We gave both those things when one was more than enough.

Big pressure on BC this summer as we had better get something significant with this cap room. History says he will outbid himself for mediocre talent.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

I really don't know if I like or hate this trade. There's many pros and cons to it. Were just all going to have to wait and see. Hopefully it works out for the best. I can definitely say I'm not sad to see Jamario go though.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

As for comparing us to championship teams like LAL and MIA???? That is just ridiculous. Lakers went to four straight finals. MIA would have went to 2 straight finals if Wade and Shaq were not injured in the loss to DET. Plus the reason both those teams had to rebuild was Shaq first forcing his way out of LA and then MIA wanting out from his contract due to injuries and falling performance. Hardly applicable to our situation unless Bosh forces his way out.

All the Raps did is overachieve one season in a very weak division with some Euro vets. Were beaten fairly easily in two first round exits. Record got worse each year BC has been GM.

He has capped us out without adding a legit nba star. He has been a failure and is now truly desperate. Even his coaching moves made no sense. He gives Smitch a big contract and then cans him early in a season. In the summer he could have had D'Antoni who is loved by star players around the league.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

lucc19 said:


> buddy i know my ball ok... i said trade bosh cuz he has no D and does not make players around him better.
> 
> I don't like Bosh and you


Bosh doesn't "make the players around him better." Stop using cliches and use specifics. 
You may be right that bosh isnt the best defender in the world but he is more than adequete and he is the raptors best player. 
You say he is **** (which makes me think you don't appreciate good basketball) and say to trade him. For what. The only equal value they could get is amare, and he has worse D. Then again
Maybe he averages more blocks a game.


I wish i could see what you said that was edited.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

The one pleasant surprise in all of this is the reaction of Toronto fans to JO. A lot of respect from the fans for the effort he brings, the pride in defence, and the class he has shown threw this entire horrible year. Never a complaint from him about touches or role or even the trade talks. He brought everything he could to the team. And the man has a wife and kids so all this turmoil could not have been easy at home either.

It's encouraging to see Raps fans respect that and actually understand that it is only his contract we needed to move, not the person or player. I can't see any way he would get boo'd in Toronto. He may even get a little more than just polite applause.

A lot of the games he missed were not even due to his bad knee. It was a fluke collision on his 'healthy' knee. Just part of our cursed year.

So congrats to Raps fans for showing some class when evaluating and discussing JO.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I believe Marion will be a better fit in Toronto, because their offense is a bit more freeflowing.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

Two things:

1. It seems that Riley was more desperate to make this deal than Colangelo. Therefore, I've no idea why the Raptors took Banks back; he's clearly not very good.

2. The Raptors definitely should *NOT* have given up a first rounder, even if it is conditional (I haven't seen the conditions yet, but I assume there is no way to avoid not giving the pick up). I'm okay with trading O'Neal though I would've waiting until the draft and focused here on trading other players. I'm not a huge fan of Marion but we'll see how that works out.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

^


> According to a party with the details of the deal, the Heat will receive a first-round pick from Toronto in 2010, unless that pick is among the first 14 (lottery) selections.
> 
> Should Toronto be in the draft lottery in 2010, in essence not make next season's playoffs, the Heat then would receive a 2010 second-round pick from the Raptors.
> 
> ...


Link


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

lucky777s said:


> As for comparing us to championship teams like LAL and MIA???? That is just ridiculous. Lakers went to four straight finals.


Doesen't matter the point I'm trying to make is both teams went through the same process were going through right now more Miami than LAL but both rebuilt quickly ,both made solid moves to get back on the winning side 



lucky777s said:


> Plus the reason both those teams had to rebuild was Shaq first forcing his way out of LA and then MIA wanting out from his contract due to injuries and falling performance. Hardly applicable to our situation unless Bosh forces his way out.


That should sound familiar to you and regardless of the reason both reams were still put in a position to rebuild 



lucky777s said:


> All the Raps did is overachieve one season in a very weak division with some Euro vets. Were beaten fairly easily in two first round exits. Record got worse each year BC has been GM.


This is a flawed theory, BC and the raps took advantage of the situation like your supposed to and your holding that against them? so what if they finished dead last that season then what would your opinion be? 



lucky777s said:


> He has capped us out without adding a legit nba star. He has been a failure and is now truly desperate. Even his coaching moves made no sense. He gives Smitch a big contract and then cans him early in a season. In the summer he could have had D'Antoni who is loved by star players around the league.


Playoffs 2 out 3 years a failure? yes we taken a step back but the team in a better position now rebuild faster, this team can be competitive in 1 year if the chips fall in place. Raps are more flexible now than they were when BC first got here, and BC planned it this way from the start this is his plan B. outside of Kap and Jose nobody got more than a 3 year deal , which makes them easy to move if things don't work out which is the position were in right now. The way things are structured with no long term commitments everything can be quickly corrected gotta give him some more time I want to see which direction he takes the team and new Coach he brings in before I get all doom and gloom with him


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

NewAgeBaller said:


> ^
> 
> Link


so we're losing a pick this year no matter what then.. a second and a first basically.. 
great!


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

I don't get this. Does anyone on this forum think that O'Neal, Bosh and Bargnani is a better front court than Bargnani Bosh and Marion? We're saving about $23 million dollars on this deal. Clearly the JO trade was a mistake. Everyone was *****ing about how we had to trade one of our two PGs. We had the same problem this year, two Cs, just a lot less overall talent. Our defense did and rebounding did not improve, and that's not JO's fault, it's just that he didn't fit into this team with Bargnani and Bosh already here. 

In Marion we get a proven wing player, someone who is a slasher, who can get inside, is a great defender, and doesn't need the ball to be effective. Isn't this what we've needed all year? Don't let his numbers this year fool you, it's the Dwayne Wade show in Miami, not a lot of possessions for players like Marion. With Calderon here, I think Marion will be able to get a lot of easy buckets again. Let's not forget, this guy was an MVP candidate just three seasons ago with a similar PG in Nash. And let's say he's a big flop, you get rid of JO's horrendous contract and have a lot of flexibility this off-season when most teams are not willing to spend very much.

Sure we gave up a protected first, but what were the other options out there? Having Bargnani, Bosh and O'Neal in our front court for the next two years certainly wasn't one.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i can't get over this deal. it is disastrous in every way, imo. i don't know what the plan is anymore- the future's out the window now so... are we honestly looking at making a run with this roster? honestly?

#1: you don't trade big for small. we just did. not only that, we soaked the house in gasoline and lit a match.

#2: jamario moon may not be a good fit in toronto, but there are other teams who do like him (like miami). why would he have been included otherwise? the man has been a starter for most of the last two seasons, is making the minimum, is a popular player from an "above the rim" standpoint- i mean, why are we throwing assets like that away? was jermaine not enough? why not dump solomon if we needed to dump solomon? did they honestly want more- and did we actually give it to them?

#3: the heat needed jermaine. bad. if we need players, other teams make us pay for them. miami needed a big man to take the pressure off haslem and co., that much was clear. and they got off like bandits here. 

#4: miami's not a good team. their point guards are not good. marcus banks couldn't find any pt there. he's the only cap ballast in the deal- why are _we_ the ones taking him back? jermaine and jamario are not enough?

#5: the first-rounder is a killer. it's conditional, meaning we can't move another one until we lose it, and that makes it worse. it doesn't even matter if it's top-28 protected- that's not the point. i've heard others say the same but it bears repeating: if colangelo was planning on acquiring a salary with this newfound capspace via trade, he'd be hard-pressed to do it now. usually those players are acquired for draft picks (ex. camby). we can't move any, so what are we going to offer for this unknown contract? are we expecting it to be a straight salary dump? 

i believe this aspect of the trade has been overlooked by the media and colangelo himself. it makes me nauseous to think that we just got over the cleveland/charlotte conditional of a few years ago- it took us forever to get those chains off our ankles- and now we're in the same boat again. like we never learn from our mistakes. which should be #6. 

#7: who are the three acquisitions we've made this year? jake voskuhl, shawn marion, marcus banks... hmmm. phoenix north. i mean, i'm sick. when they don't know what they're doing, that's what the inexperienced resort to: ol' familiar. this latest only confirms (imo) that colangelo is out of his league and is grasping at straws. that's not easy for me to say, either, but it's pretty clear.

#8: we've been complaining about our depth all year. of course, we intentionally got rid of five players last summer to (i can't even say it, man) "make our roster leaner" (thanks, sam). now we trade big for small and dump another rotation piece in the transaction... as well as a future first-rounder. jake voskuhl is today our first big off the bench. what's more, directly behind him is nathan jawai. behind jawai is nobody. and it's not like chris bosh and andrea bargnani have any meat on their bones, either. this is a disaster on the runway, imo. seriously... if bosh doesn't play versus cleveland, are we honestly going into that game with bargnani and voskuhl inside, and jawai coming off the bench for the entire game? bosh was already complaining about his pt- now he and andrea will have to eat another 30 mpg between them? i can't wait to see chris attack the basket with reckless abandon! 

#9: what was our biggest need last week? i'd say toughness and leadership. we lost by far the toughest player on our team, and replaced him with another softy. we also lost (imo) our only true leader, and replaced him with a player whose mind is already locked on his next home. he's also a jump shooter who needs help creating his own shot. wonderful. 

#10: for the first time in my life, there's not a single player i can relate to on this team. not a single one. i find it intolerable to even glance at the roster. i've already been bored senseless by these players (even when they were winning) and it doesn't look like there's much change around the corner. "we'll have money to bring back carlos delfino." you gotta be kidding me. i mean, seriously: you've got to be kidding, bryan. does it need to be pointed out that we had delfino last year and it was the same story- that the team was nearly unwatchable? they got blown out in the first round. their perimeter defense was pedestrian at best. he signed in russia because no other team wanted him. what makes you think that he's the answer for all our prayers? have you become an ostrich like all of our players, all of our media and some of our fans? 

that, to me, is the most painful part of this debacle. the best part of the deal is that the team saved 13 mil (+3 cash = 16 total). i mean, that has nothing to do with the basketball team- that's just money that goes into the organization's pockets. i don't know how anybody can sit with a straight face, and claim it was worthwhile for that reason. 

i was flabbergasted when the raptors signed mark jackson in 2000, i was quite upset then. but i'm 10x more upset today. i guess i'll be cheering for jermaine in miami- because i have nothing else to watch. 

peace


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

Ballocks pretty much summed it up, I agree. I had no idea what the direction of this team is, and this was a horrible trade. Not because of what we got, but also because of what he gave up to get JO.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

Turkish Delight said:


> *I don't get this. Does anyone on this forum think that O'Neal, Bosh and Bargnani is a better front court than Bargnani Bosh and Marion?* We're saving about $23 million dollars on this deal. Clearly the JO trade was a mistake. Everyone was *****ing about how we had to trade one of our two PGs. We had the same problem this year, two Cs, just a lot less overall talent. Our defense did and rebounding did not improve, and that's not JO's fault, it's just that he didn't fit into this team with Bargnani and Bosh already here.
> 
> *In Marion we get a proven wing player, someone who is a slasher, who can get inside, is a great defender, and doesn't need the ball to be effective. Isn't this what we've needed all year?* Don't let his numbers this year fool you, it's the Dwayne Wade show in Miami, not a lot of possessions for players like Marion. With Calderon here, I think Marion will be able to get a lot of easy buckets again. Let's not forget, this guy was an MVP candidate just three seasons ago with a similar PG in Nash. And let's say he's a big flop, you get rid of JO's horrendous contract and have a lot of flexibility this off-season when most teams are not willing to spend very much.
> 
> *Sure we gave up a protected first, but what were the other options out there? Having Bargnani, Bosh and O'Neal in our front court for the next two years certainly wasn't one*.


:clap:


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

kirk_2003 said:


> so we're losing a pick this year no matter what then.. a second and a first basically..
> great!


What???
We keep this years pick (first rounder) no matter what. (its 2009 not 2010)
Chilll


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

mo76 said:


> What???
> We keep this years pick (first rounder) no matter what. (its 2009 not 2010)
> Chilll


it's still 2 picks, if we don't make it in the playoffs by 2010..


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

kirk_2003 said:


> it's still 2 picks, if we don't make it in the playoffs by 2010..


its 2015


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