# A Trade that Needs to be Made



## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

Pat Riley said it himself this morning: The Heat are rebuilding. With Mourning out of the picture in Miami, its time for them to prepare for next summer's free agent class.

The Bulls are in an excellent position to help themselves and the Heat achieve their own particular goals. It's time for the Bulls to trade for Eddie Jones.

Here's the breakdown. The Bulls send Fizer, Robinson, Hoiberg and Bagaric to Miami for EJ. Then the Bulls use the veteran's minimum to sign one of the following SF's: Dan Langhi, Walt Williams, Lee Nailon, or Tyrone Nesby.

*Bulls Starters*
PG: Jamal Crawford
SG: Eddie Jones
SF: Jalen Rose
PF: Donyell Marshall or Tyson Chandler
C: Eddy Curry

*Backups*
PG: Jay Williams
SG: Trent Hassell
SF: Langhi, W. Williams, Nailon, or Nesby
PF: Tyson Chandler or Donyell Marshall
C: Corrie Blount

Wasn't it Krause's intention a few years back to sign two "full boat" free agents? By acquiring Jones he's effectively accomplished what he set out to do the summer of 2000. At that time he had targeted Duncan, Hill, McGrady, Jones and Rose. Had he signed both Jones and Rose at that time they'd be making the same amount of money they are today. And Bulls fans would have been thrilled.

So you say you're afraid of Jones' contract. Well by trading Fizer and Robinson, the Bulls payroll only increases by $2.3 million in '03/'04 and by $1.8 million in '04/'05. There is a presumption that the Bulls would exercise their option on Fizer for next year and at worst would be stuck paying him the qualifying offer his contract calls for in '04/'05. In terms of NBA payrolls, we're talking pocket money. And lets not forget that Krause was supposed to have told Marshall's agent that the Bulls aren't concerned about paying the luxury tax.

What does Miami get out of this? We know Grant will move to center. That opens a spot up for Fizer. Robinson starts at SF and Hoiberg and Caron Butler split time at SG. 

Riley will have the option whether he wants to pick up Fizer's and Bagaric's options for next year. And Hoiberg is on an ending contract. In effect the only contract the Heat are responsible for beyond this season is Eddie Robinson's. That means the Heat could reduce their payroll next season by another $6 million. That gives the Heat a payroll of only $24 million heading into free agency next summer. Wouldn't that put them in the enviable position of grabbing the pick of the litter in '03?

In Jones, the Bulls get a top flight defender. They've now surrounded their young prospects with productive, accomplished veterans in Rose, Marshall, and EJ. And make no mistake about it, the Bulls are now a genuine playoff contender.

Remember, the Bulls will not be players in next summer's free agent market. This is Krause's opportunity to acquire a top tier player who fills several needs. Simply put, he can't afford not to at least make inquiries about Jones' availability.


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## JB (Jul 12, 2002)

*WOW ! ! !*

I love it ! ! ! I thought about Jones too but do you (honestly) think that Pat will give up Jones - an allstar caliber players for bench players ? ? ? I truly love this trade idea but I think it would be even if we put in a pick (maybe #2) but if this trade ever happened it would be the talk of the town. Rose, Jones, Jay, Eddy, Tyson, WOW ! ! !


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Personally, I say [edited by TB#1] Eddie Jones. I don't want a player who verbally committed to us a few years back and then backed out. He doesn't want to be here, and that's a bad omen.

You are correct that the in the absence of Zo, Grant will be playing center, and that leaves a big vacancy at the 4 for the Heat, which Fizer could fill. However, if not Jones, that team has just about nothing except for Caron Butler, but I don't think they want to give him up. This might do it, but I doubt it:



Miami trades: PF LaPhonso Ellis (7.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 0.9 apg in 25.5 minutes) 
PF Caron Butler (7.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 0.9 apg in 25.5 minutes) 
Miami receives: PF Marcus Fizer (12.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 1.6 apg in 25.8 minutes) 
PG Jamal Crawford (9.3 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 2.4 apg in 20.9 minutes) 
Change in team outlook: +14.5 ppg, +2.8 rpg, and +3.1 apg. 

Chicago trades: PF Marcus Fizer (12.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 1.6 apg in 25.8 minutes) 
PG Jamal Crawford (9.3 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 2.4 apg in 20.9 minutes) 
Chicago receives: PF LaPhonso Ellis (7.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 0.9 apg in 66 games) 
PF Caron Butler (7.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 0.9 apg in 66 games) 
Change in team outlook: -14.5 ppg, -2.8 rpg, and -3.1 apg. 

TRADE ACCEPTED

You have been assigned Trade ID number 767018


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I wouldn't do it. I think Eddie Robinson by himself could be as productive as Jones if he is healthy. Jones is a good player, but not a great player. Stand pat for now and see what the team can do.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

I would support this trade. 

However, I don't think that the Heat would go for it unless they were certain that eRob was healthy and playing at least as well as he did for the Hornets. A healthy Jones at $12M is better than an injured player at $6M. So it seems like this could be a mid-year deal.

Therefore, Krause, not Riles, will need to decide to extend Fizer and Bags (and Craw) one year. Tough decision.

The Bulls could have as few as two (Blount and Hoiberg) or as many as five ending contracts. Having 4 ending contracts could be pretty valuable at the mid-seasons trading deadline.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> Pat Riley said it himself this morning: The Heat are rebuilding. With Mourning out of the picture in Miami, its time for them to prepare for next summer's free agent class.
> 
> The Bulls are in an excellent position to help themselves and the Heat achieve their own particular goals. It's time for the Bulls to trade for Eddie Jones.
> ...



not only did JK want jones that year, he tried to get him last year. Yes i was for it last year. Im for it now. We do not need his offense but his defense!! yes. His experience? Yes. And we would be a playoff team. 

But, since mourning is down and out and they are rebuilding, does that mean that they will get rid of their top scorer?

They will be hurting thats for sure but making such a trade now would also give Butler time to get used to the NBA.


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## JYD (Sep 3, 2002)

To an earlier reply and new trade proposed:

Caron Butler is not a PF!
He is a SG!


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Although I'm not an Eddie Jones fan, I'd be excited to get him so cheaply. However, despite Miami's current predicament, I don't think there's any chance they do this deal, even though it's so cap friendly for them and it relieves them of Jones's contract (which, let's face it, lasts a lot longer than the amount of time he'll be a good player). It's just too hard to sell from a PR standpoint, since clearing cap room guarantees a team absolutely nothing, as we all know.

Essentially the deal boils down to Jones for ERob. Even though Miami's probably the only place outside of Charlotte and Chicago where fans know who ERob is, it's not enough for Riles to pull the trigger.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

*Don't do it Rashard !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

The scuttlebutt is that Rashard is just about to announce his signing in Dallas

Here is the 11th hour deal 

*Miami trades *

Eddie Jones _ To Chicago _
Eddie House _ To Seattle _


Total - $11.95M - including Eddie Houses's qualifying offer of $750K that counts aginst the cap .

_ receives back $11.7M in Lewis and Weatherspoon _

*Seattle trades *

Rashard Lewis _ To Miami _

Total - $6.8M( sign and trade )

_ receives back $5.75M in Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford and Eddie House - * cuts Eddie House by not extending qualifying offer making him an UFA and able to sign back on with Miami if they want him * _

*Chicago trades*

Marcus Fizer _ To Seattle _
Jamal Crawford _ To Seattle _
Eddie Robinson _ To New York _

Total $10.7M

_ receives back Eddie Jones._

* New York trades *

Clarence Weatherspoon _ To Miami _

Total $4.9M

_ receives back $5.75M in Eddie Robinson _

* Why for Miami  *

They rebuild in a pretty big hurry adding another building block in Rashard to the principal building block of the future in Caron Butler. If Butler is all that and has the inside bullocking game of Paul Pierce than the silky perimeter game of Rashard would sit well.

Brian Grant in the warrior vet in for the long haul and Clarence Weatherspoon is a previous Riley favourite that also adds rebounding and defense to the frontline. I would also expect them to bring back Ken Jonhnson from Europe if they can and maybe bring Sean Marks in again to pair with Vladimir Stepania for bit parts on the front line - given the latest unfortunate news on Zo .

Travis Best was a good pick up at $1.4M and the woeful shooting Anthony Carter has 2 seasons to go before his contract is up - but they need help at the point ( which they may address next draft ) and at Center which they may address in next year's free agency 

In doing this trade they would be at around $37M before renouncing free agents going into next summer and therefore would be better off padding out their roster with those free agents they may wish to keep ( Best, Phonz and Stepania ) 

So it is a question as to whether their MLE nextyear may net them someone like Elden Campbell - who I would expect to have several suitors at $4.5M leaving him in a situation to play where he chooses

All in all I would think that if Eddie Jones netted them Rashard Lewis and Clarence Weatherspoon they would have to seriously consider it

* Starting 5 *

C : Brian Grant
PF :Clarence Weatherspoon
SF :Rashard Lewis
SG :Caron Butler
PG: Travis Best 

* Key Reserves *

Ken Johnson
Laphonso Ellis
Eddie House ( assuming he signs back on if he were to be released by Seattle )
Anthony Carter

yeah their depth stinks - but it stinks with or without EJ 

*Why for Seattle *

Seattle needs to be blown up .

Rashard is not going back so it seems - their management won't negotiate further and you have the tinderbox that is Gary Payton who probably won't sign on if the Sonics don't look like a contender but appear to be more of a rebuilder

House is thrown in to facilitate the deal but they could cut him straight away with no impost. 

That leaves Fizer and Crawford - options on which could be passed on by the Supes who effectively could rent them for a year to evaluate them and then decide whether to pick them up in free agency next year - as well as preserving their cap flexibility for next year

They lose Rashard for nothing as it stands at the moment and get Fizer and Crawford for 1 year with no commitment beyond - yet can bid for them if they want next summer.

* Starting 5 *

C : Jerome James
PF : Marcus Fizer
SF : Vladimir Radmanovic
SG : Brent Barry
PG : Gary Payton

* Key Reserves *

Calvin Booth
Desmond Mason
Jamal Crawford
Kenny Andersen 

* Why for New York *

Its as simple as Weatherspoon is surplus behind McDyess and Harrington and Thomas ( also a PF playing Center) Knight and Doleac are all there to play the front line

Outside of Shandon Andersen that is no depth at the 3 and 2 spots of any note.

This trade from New York's perspective is more about positional balance for very similar contracts that run for the same amount of time ( with ERob's being marginally more expensive ) 

* Why for Chicago *

It further legitimises our intent to put a serious product on the floor straight away .

Eddie like Jalen's contract crosses path with Eddy and Tyson qualifying offer contract year in 2005/2006 - BUT we would no have ERob's $7M in the last year of his contract 

I don't see that as much of an issue as in 3 years time , hopefully Eddy, Tyson and Jay are developed sufficiently in approaching NBA dominance in their respective positions and this youth core with Jalen and Eddie would round out a killer starting 5 that is seriously contending.

I would like to think we still have role players - Bagaric, Marshall, Hassell and Mason + whoever else we add via draft over the next 3 years

I most certainly concur with HJ that we should do this trade if it were offered - in fact I wanted Eddie Jones prior to the Jalen Rose trade when it seemed to be getting down to one or the other - but to have both would be sensational - the perfect complement to each other . 

Definately puts us into the playoffs - as to who far we would go depends on how Tyson, Eddy and Jay cope

* Starting 5 *

C : Eddy Curry
PF: Donyell Marshall
SF: Jalen Rose
SG: Eddie Jones
PG: Jay Williams

* Key reserves *

Tyson Chandler
Corie Blount
Lonny Baxter
Trent Hassell 

* IR *

Dalibor Bagaric
Roger Mason Jr 
Fred Hoiberg

* Free agent targets - at the minimum to add to roster of 14 *

_ One of _

Dan Langhi ( glad to see you like him too HJ )

or

Scott Padgett ( a Dan Langhi type but harder to get then Dan Kanghi IMO )

My choice is for Dan Langhi is hobby horse y'all know I have been on for awhile

_ One of _

Rick Brunson

or 

John Crotty 

Likewise I have long been an advocate of the Brunson Burner

* RASHARD IS THE KEY THOUGH AS I DO NOT SEE MIAMI TAKING EROB BACK BUT THEY MAY BITE ON RASHARD AND RASHARD MAY GO IF WE A ) GETS HIS MONEY ( APPRAOCHING A $70M CONTRACT ) AND B) GETS TO BE ONE OF TWO PRINCIPAL OPTIONS ON OFFENSE - CAN HE SAY THE SAME ABOUT HIS SITUATION IN DALLAS - DUMB MOVE ON HIS PART IF HE GOES - BUT THEN HE DIDNT MAKE THE SMARTEST CHOICE LAST TIME HE SIGNED EITHER *


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*not to burst bubbles*

but these two trade ideas need work for these reasons

1 eddie jones is not a max type player although he gets paid like one trading for him even if it were for free wouldn't be prudent 

he doesn't have that kind of talent he is just very good 

2 eddie jones wasn't really worth the money when the contract was 1st given to him he definitely isn't worth it now (case in point i dont think he is any better than stackhouse and while it can be argued that he is i think we can all agree that the pistons traded him because they felt he wasn't worth the max he would be asking for at the end of the season)

3 eddie jones is not a leader on a young team they players are going to look to the better players for guidance and if lastyear was any indication (while 'Zo was still getting use to his medication) Jones does not have it in him to be THE GUY as their 5-23 start clearly shows

4. he has all the potential in the world to be a media nightmare he hs spurned to bulls before and at the 1st hint of trouble the chi-town press will bring this up and with Jones not being an interveiwers best friend it could get ugly 

5. the years of which he was worth the money he were getting have past he is a thin player who gets by on a athletic body and a decent J 

his J is not going to keep him productive a la reg miller into his mid30s and his quickness and leaping ability are already beginning to fade 

6. the price mentioned is way too high (fizer , JC and Robinson) most of the skills jones brings to the table robinson and crawford have in combo better than jones 

robinson is more athletic with a better mid range j 

crawford has a better handle and better 3pt shot 

jones is a better defender than all three but he is only slightly better than a fully healthy e-rob(any doubter should watch robinson shut down jones in the mia-char series in 2001 max players should not get down in the playoffs , there is no excuse thats what they get paid for )

plus people want to throw in fizer who even the most ardent fizer hater will admit is no throw in

7. basically a team goes as far as as its stars take them ,the final 4 last year the teams were lead by webber pierce shaq and kidd .Rose is not in that category and jones is not the player rose is the bulls will not get to their goals(upper echelon of the league) unless 1 or more of their young projects take them there and until then it makes no sense to trade part of the future for a player who can at best only help to take them halfway


uh... um the end


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## Joker (Aug 7, 2002)

bulls fans:
dont even dream about that trade!
miamia wants to attract big players... they will never do that if they dont have grant, butler, jones, and best on the team........ we dont wanna be a team people look at like they look at the nuggets or the cavs...
jonmes is our only reliable player without zo


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

How's 'bout this one? 

Zo goes out for the season or possibly his career. Miami files for a injured player exception on Mourning. If I understand the rules correctly, Miami can sign a player at up to 50% of Alonzo's salary provided the exception is granted. (Just read that on ESPN with the Demarr Johnson story)

If I'm a clever GM, I'll bend Rashard Lewis ear to the tune of a one year deal at right around $9 or $10 mil. with the *wink wink* assurance that come the following year, he can re-up with Miami with no problem long-term because Alonzo's $20 mil/season is comming off the books. Miami would still have decent wiggle room with which to sign, not necessarily a full-boat FA, but perhaps a decent center. Can anyone say Olowakandi?

after the summer of 2003...

PG - Who knows?
SG - Jones / Butler
SF - Lewis
PF - Grant
C - Kandi 

Would Lewis do something like this? Is it even possible??? Given the prospect of Lewis signing for the 4.5 mil excption in Dallas or a pretty sweet one year deal with Miami who then has the wherewithal to sign Lewis long-term, I would think he should look at it.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

I'm wondering how Marcus, Jamal and ERob for EJ is any different from Brad, Ron Artest and Ron Mercer for Jalen?

Addition by subtraction

Nominal comparison of individual production ( in itself in isolation ) is not going to win a team many games when you are trying to cram minutes into 11 or 12 players that should be getting them


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> How's 'bout this one?
> 
> 
> If I'm a clever GM, I'll bend Rashard Lewis ear to the tune of a one year deal at right around $9 or $10 mil. with the *wink wink* assurance that come the following year, he can re-up with Miami with no problem long-term because Alonzo's $20 mil/season is comming off the books.


Just make sure that Rashard uses an invisible pen on that :

* Wink Wink 

Wink Wink 
With invisible ink 
To avoid the stink
Cuz Riles loses draft picks n cash quicker than an eye can blink

The commish 'd thow everything at 'em including the kitchen sink 
All depends if within Miami's four walls there is a fink
A curse , an vendeta perhaps - unable to escape the jinx 
A franchise on the brink 
All this about the green , diamonds, n coats of mink 
What started off as a casual word on the links
Dang -t'would drive a GM to drink 

Loose lips sink ships - the razz is coming- time to bail 
Just make sure m'  edit mask TBF covered n' the buck passed OK MrMcHale?

WORD!

OUT! 

Fat Jerry Publications. copyright. 14th September 2002 *


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Flash 

Its a good idea but time would not be on Miami or Rashard's side I would not think for something like that to go down 


Unfortunate timing with training camp and season being so close


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> I'm wondering how Marcus, Jamal and ERob for EJ is any different from Brad, Ron Artest and Ron Mercer for Jalen?
> 
> Addition by subtraction
> ...


you cant do this every 6 months

when it was for jalen it fit a need 

the young players need a mentor and a leader someone to lead them on the court as well as off it

it wasn't done for immediate wins on a court because those 3 players could have won as many games here as jalen did if not more.

i believe you actually let a teams players get good enough that there can actually be a min. crunch before you trade players away 
it seems people are so afraid to let a player sit because he gets limited time 

well no player is experiencing that yet and in all honesty there are only 9 payers on the roster that absolutely deseve time in the rotation heading into the season 

and seeing how injury prone the bulls have tended to be over the last couple of years i'm not too worried about finding time for players on a team not headed to the playoffs in all likelyhood anyway

and if the #s crunch becomes too much to bear its better to trade mid-season anyway because for one thing our players will have more value(especially robinson & crawford although i'm actually against trading both unless a deal blows my socks off) and for another teams will be more willing to give more for players at that time


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## Jammer (May 28, 2002)

*Eddie Jones*

As someone who has proposed a lot of Eddie Jones trades the past two years, I'm glad HJHJR and FJ have resurrected him in this thread.

I would do HJ's trade. Of course, Riley would have to think that Eddie Robinson will not turn up lame, and also like Fizer.

FJ, I'm not ready to give up on Jamal yet. If people within the Bulls organization are, well, that would say more about his attitude and thought process. I don't know what Cartwright or JK think about the kid. So, if he stays, they still think he has potential, and if he goes, then they have serious doubts. I, for one, would be surprised to see Jamal traded right now.

I can see Marcus, Bagaric, Robinson and Hoiberg in Miami. I would not be surprised if Riley did this, IF he likes Eddie Robinson. I think he certainly will like their contracts better than Jone's.

And if Riley tries to squeeze another year or two out of Eddie Jones, who has that escalating contract, well, then Riley will wind up like the Knicks with an untradeable commodity, or one tradeable for a lot of bloated contracts or lame bodies.

At least with this deal, he gets some decent players to fill out his thin roster.


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## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

*Re: not to burst bubbles*



> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 7. basically a team goes as far as as its stars take them ,the final 4 last year the teams were lead by webber pierce shaq and kidd .*Rose is not in that category* and jones is not the player rose is the bulls will not get to their goals(upper echelon of the league) unless 1 or more of their young projects take them there and until then it makes no sense to trade part of the future for a player who can at best only help to take them halfway
> 
> 
> uh... um the end


Rose is not in that category? I beg to differ. Actually, it's the facts that beg to differ.

In 1999-2000, Rose led the Pacers in scoring (18.2) and added 4.8 reb, 4.0 ast and 1.05 stl. He went on to average 23 ppg in the NBA Finals, so I think he has proven that he can lead a team to the Finals.

And Fizer, ERob, the Mayor and Bags are only a part of the Bulls future coming off the bench. ERob *might* be a starter long-term, but that's it, and I highly doubt that.

I don't see how anyone could *not* like this trade. Jones is still one of the best perimeter defenders in the game, he's a 3-time All-Star, and he's only 30. 

Last season, he averaged 18.3 pts, 4.7 reb, 3.2 ast, 1.44 stl, AND he shot 39% on 3's- and he played 39 minutes/game, which ranked 14th in the NBA. 

And who really cares how much money he makes? It's completely irrelevent. The Bulls aren't going to be under the cap again anyway, and since Reinsdorf has already stated that he doesn't mind paying the Luxury Tax, what difference does it make how much money Jones is paid?


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

if anyone knows how much havok erob can reak when his game his 100%, then its pat riley


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> you cant do this every 6 months


Quite right

When you run out of expendables and your team's short. mid and long term future is assured there is no need to 

For the record - I do like Jammy and Fizz - its just that I don't see them here as part of our future and with that being the case ( and the thick rod of rationalism that guides me ) I say why put off until tomorrow what you can do today ?


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

HJ's and FJ's trades seem to reflect these two 's varying opinions of JC and Bags.

HJ has JC in the starting 5, whereas FJ seems to have JC as baggage. FJ has previously expressed the opinion that Bags in his opinion could be a decent back-up center in the league.

Regardless, some thoughts about Eddie Jones.

Miami's half set oriented offense dioesn't really maximized Jone's offensive creativity and ability to finish. Jones skills are best utilized in a more uptempo game.

Riley's defensive emphasis did allow for Jones to demonstrate these talents.

Though Jones can show more of his offensive skills in a different offense, he really has come near the peak of his career this season or next, and his game will probably decline in the 5th, 6th and 7th year of his contract. 

Now adding Jones to the Bulls and inserting him into the starting five as follows:

1. Craw or JW
2. EJones
3. Rose
4. TC or Donyell
5. EC

as opposed to having a starting 5 of

1. Craw or JW
2. Hassell
3. Rose
4. TC or Donyell
5. EC

really doesn't make the team any more defensive, since the Bulls best defensive oriented player plays the same position. Inserting Jones make the Bulls more offensive w/o relinquishing any defense.

Jones would flourish in on offense with two creative ball handlers at the point forward and point guard spots.

Adding Jones will make the Bulls better the next two seasons. 

Now I'm not in the Bags has a future camp. Adding him as filler for a trade makes a lot more sense than adding a player who has shown some flashes of brilliance and is a complimentary player type to JWill. I've seen enough of Bags to know how good he's capable of becoming. I haven't seen enough of Craw to know whether or not he will live up to all the potential he supposedly has. 

If the trade was Fizer, ERob, and Bags for either E.Jones, R. Lewis or even B.Wells, I agree that this reduces some redundancy and adds offensive skill at the 2 or 2/3. 

Tossing in Craw to me shifts the scale in any of these currently or previously produced trades from trading redundancy to trading away too much potential. In the case of Lewis, getting back Lewis maybe would substantiate getting potential back in return bcuase of Lewis's youth. Getting Jones or Bonzi who are older doesn't allow this same justification. 

Furthermore, and finally, Bags though large is a replacable type player. Every year there are 7'0 Euro center who can be obtained in the draft. Even trying to sign the Puerto Rican center Sanitago may be an improvement over Bags. 

As Hj wrote, Miami trying to shed salary may give them motivation to make a trade. Miami was trying to move one of the max contracts preferably Grant. But with the injury to Zo, Grant becomes less expendable.


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## Jammer (May 28, 2002)

Well put, ztect.

:banana:


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

I think if they can get the orignal trade, it would benefit both teams... Eddie and Jalen could carry the load, while Miami would have lotta cap as noted...

-Petey


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: not to burst bubbles*



> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> 
> 
> Rose is not in that category? I beg to differ. Actually, it's the facts that beg to differ.
> ...


I have 2 points of contention

1. I consider the leader i consider reggie miller to be the guy in indy that year you can put up all the stats in the world but when the pacers needed a basket in the final min. of the game all eyes were on reggie

2. i dont consider Rose to be the same kind of elite player that shaq kobe duncan mcgrady garnett kidd nowistki

the kind of player that basically no matter what will make the playoffs


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## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

I dont believe a trade for Eddie Jones will happen for several reasons. Krause is now thin at PG due to the likely season ending injury to Roger Mason Jr. Trading Jamal Crawford is now very unlikely which would leave the Bulls with just JW. Second reason is that the proposed lineup for the Bulls would start Eddie Jones at SG and move Rose to SF and pushing Marshall to the bench, which isnt going to happen. Also Rose in that lineup is more of a defensive liability than at SG which is likely where he is scheduled to play now. And while Marshall can play some PF he is basicly a SF. So unless our opponent is using a small lineup Marshall would be a liability at PF. I just dont envision this trade happening. I kinda want to see what happens with the current players, at least till the Feb trade deadline.

Getting an injured player allowance for Mourning would be the route to go for Miami and using it to bid on Olowokandi. That most likely would force Sterling to let some of the moths out of his pocket, which is long overdue. Even if it only accomplishes that and Miami didnt get Olowokandi I would be happy.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

How many years are left on EJ's deal? If it's not too many, I'd jump at this deal, as long as we don't have to give up Jamal. Jones will be fading right as Jamal becomes ready to take his starting position, and the Bulls are way better in the mean time. He doesn't have to be the go-to guy on this team, remember, cause we got Jalen and Jay.
PG-Jay
SG-Jones
SF-Rose
PF-Marshall
C-Eddy
With Tyson and Jamal off the bench? That's a helluva team. They could, conciveably, go to the Eastern conference finals THIS YEAR with this lineup. You've two (three if you count Jay) all-star caliber players paired with a big athletic frontcourt.


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## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

But in this deal we are going to be trading Jamal Crawford, which we cant and wont be doing. So its like wishing for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, it just wont be there. We need two solid PG's and PLEASE dont put Rose at PG. Trading Jamal is not going to happen now that Mason is injured. Forget EJ.


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## Jammer (May 28, 2002)

*Jamal's a keeper (at least for now)*

WshflTHinking:

Forget about FJ's proposal. It would not happen at this time. The Bulls will not give up Crawford right now unless they got something really goood back. Crawford will likely increase his value this season.

HJ's trade is plausible, and if Riles is realistic, it allows him to replenish his team. If he thinks he can hold onto Eddie Jones for two more years of his remaining five, well, he may get stuck paying him off like the Knicks did with their guys. The escalation is more, the higher your salary gets.

And he will have less game left one year from now, or two, then he has right now. Riles should do the deal if JK proposes it to him. This would also help shorten the Bulls rotation and minutes allocation.

Jamal and Jay would still cover the point.

Eddie and Trent would cover the two.

Jalen and Donyell would cover the three.

Tyson and Donyell would cover the four.

Eddy Curry and ? (Blount??; Oakley?) would cover center. 

That's a nine man rotation, if everyone is healthy. Which is realistic. Rebounding would be the big question, with the team very dependent on Curry, Chandler and Marshall. Baxter could be a surprise here, if he got the chance.

I like this trade from both team's perspective. The Bulls would be more athletic, and quicker. I think that would complement Jamal's style. He does not seem comfortable in a stand around offense.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JYD</b>!
> To an earlier reply and new trade proposed:
> 
> Caron Butler is not a PF!
> He is a SG!


That's just realgm's trade checker being stupid. However, Caron may play the 3 and be a short SF Paul Pierce style.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

*Re: Jamal's a keeper (at least for now)*



> Originally posted by <b>Jammer</b>!
> WshflTHinking:
> 
> Forget about FJ's proposal. It would not happen at this time. The Bulls will not give up Crawford right now unless they got something really goood back. Crawford will likely increase his value this season.
> ...


Wishfulthinking

So long as your getting instructions to forget about trade scenarios from Jammer, you may as well forget about HJ's as well - for now at least.

It was a great initial idea/concept by HJ IMO but there is no way Pat Riley takes on ERob and the 4 years left on his contract when his health is questionable

The Heat are in the doo doo they are in because of health issues. 

Its a pretty big psychological crutch for Pat Riley to get over right now I would say 

HJ, Jammer and others have brought up the salary flexibility the Heat would have etc - in only having $24M committed on payroll which would enable them to go ballistic next summer and have " the pick of the litter " ( I assumed that they were employing the same concept I had pitched in the Rashard Lewis trade weeks ago that Fizz and Jammy can be made UFA by not picking up their options ) 

That maybe so .

But they forgot to add that they will only have 4 players under contract and that their $24M is effectively $26M by the time they add their pick 

So that's $26M for 5 players - hell add in a 2nd round draft pick and that's $26.5 for 6 

An NBA minimum roster is 12 - realistically you want at least 14 to cover legit injuries rather than just have guys with haemmoroid concerns from sitting on the IR

So that's 8 players that they have to fill their roster with - with approximately $15.5M to spend

A Max player is going to cost you $11M to $12M. 

That would leave around $4M for 7 Tang Hamiltons

Miami's Roster : 2003 free agency max stud , Brian Grant, Caron Butler , ERob, Anthony Carter , 1st round draft pick , 2nd round draft pick and 7 Tang Hamiltons .

Gee I wonder if this is Pat Riley's idea of rebuilding ? That side sure would win a bunch of games - only if his stud is Tim Duncan and the chances of that happening are about as good as me winning the US Open next year 

Isnt this how Pat Riley got into trouble in the 1st place - by refusing to build through the draft because he detested young players and relied on free agency and trade only in the good ole days before CBA and Micky Arison clipped his wings ? - the net result of it being ; he was stuck with a core of 3 that was above average only but yet accounted for 85% of the payroll

I would dare say Pat has learned all about fiscal rationalisation a lot over the last year or so 

Would he be so prepared to make the same mistake twice having lived through it ( and I bet - regretting it at the same time ? ) 

Can an old dog learn new tricks ? 

Seems as though he can if you believe what he says ( poor hungry humble young players I believe are the words he used ) 

*THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM IN THE 1ST TRADE SCENARIO*

Quite simply, it is good for the Bulls but it sucks for Miami 

Maybe if a 3rd team was introduced that has a matching ending salary to ERob's - Cleveland with Tyrone Hill ( who could help Pat ) or Golden State with Chris Mills - then Pat has a chance to clear Eddie's salary in its entirety 

Question is what would Cleveland or Golden State do with ERob ?

Anyway - there are much better options for Pat Riley than such a proposed package we would put on the table

Without really thinking too hard :




* Cleveland could send Lamond Murray, Chris Mihm and Tyrone Hill

* Portland could send Bonzi and Erick Barkley and $3M worth of filler

* LA could send Maggette, Dooling and Rooks ( if Sterling wanted to absorb Jones's salary which might be problematic - but look at the perimeter defense the Clips would have with Miller and Jones )


As you can see straight up off the bat there are a myriad of better options for Pat Riley to try and develop - and we can talk about how great it would be for the Bulls if this is only what we had to give up etc etc but like a lot of trade scenarios that get proposed we tend to overvalue our own players in terms of what they are currently worth and take little account of how it looks from the other side of the fence ( in what we propose they take back and for why )

* AN AMENDED SCENARIO TO THE 2ND SCENARIO WITH RASHARD THAT MAY PUT US IN THE PICTURE IF SOMETHING WERE TO OCCUR *

There has been talk of waiting until mid season and until Fizer and ERob prove themselves etc etc 

Well time waits for no man - and Shard will already be in Dallas rueing his decision

Rashard as the centerpiece of the deal for Miami can compete with any of the packages quickly outlined above in what would represent superior options for Riley 

No one wants to overpay by giving up Jamal ( who I am on record as saying I like but he is wasted here and it is clear to me that he aint in the future )

No one wants to overpay with Jamal ? Fine

Sub Jamal in the package going to Seattle with the expiring contracts of Fred Hoiberg and Corie Blount ( I think his no trade moritorium is up just before training camp - although I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong )

* The benefits *

_ Bulls _

*We keep Jamal ( although we are not doing him any favours in this regard ) 

*We create space for Lonny Baxter

*We keep Bags ( say what you like but you need someone of his size to move bodies and create space in the triangle offense and there are not many bigger or potentially stronger than him ) 

* We have a key 3 man rotation at the 3 and 2 spots with Jalen, Eddie and Trent ( with Yell playing some small minutes there ) 

* We have a core 3 man rotation at the 4 and 5 spots with Yell, Tyson and Eddy - backed up by Lonny and Bags

* You have Jay at point backed up by Jamal 

There is your core 8 man rotation anchored by 3 vets and from which you build your chemistry . Lonny and Bags fight for 9th man minutes. [/list]

_ Seattle _

They will lose Rashard for nothing anyway - at least they get expiring contracts in Hoiberg and get vet help at PF with Blount for 1 year as well as Fizer up close and personal for a year to see what they got in him - * they therefore preserve their cap room for next year *

Bottom line : Do they pursue Lee Nailon for the exception or part thereof in what would have been Rashard's option money (actually was at $4.9M to be precise ) - or do they save the cap room for next year and take a chance on Marcus Fizer for a year to see what he could add to their team. 

The latter option looks the most prudent to me 

_ Miami _

They get Rashard and Spoon ( who will fortify upfront ) and their base for the future is set in Butler and Lewis - anchored by Brian Grant - they would still have around $6M to spend next summer anyway 

Much , much better deal for Miami ( than what was originally proposed in the 1st trade scenario ) in that he gets more proven YOUNG help and bolsters his front line with one of his old stalwarts

_ New York _

As stated previously they are just swapping equivalent contracts - in cost and time and address where one player is not going to get much run in Spoon ( with Dice on board and Othella picking up his option ) and subbing that cost for another player that adds depth to the swing spot where at the moment there is only Shandon Andersen behind Sprewell and Houston.


* CONCLUSION *

The difference in the two trading scenarios is that you have to give something worthwhile to Miami NOW that is comparatively attractive in what other easy options as identified that Pat Riley could easily develop.

ERob to Miami just isnt attractive to Miami 

Ask yourselves the question :

Would Miami rather Shard and Spoon or Fizer,Hoiberg,ERob and Bagaric ?

The answer to that is pretty obvious to me


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>WshflThinking</b>!
> But in this deal we are going to be trading Jamal Crawford, which we cant and wont be doing. So its like wishing for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, it just wont be there. We need two solid PG's and PLEASE dont put Rose at PG. Trading Jamal is not going to happen now that Mason is injured. Forget EJ.


Welcome!!!


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## Jammer (May 28, 2002)

*Re: Re: Jamal's a keeper (at least for now)*



> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> 
> 
> Wishfulthinking
> ...



Very nice post. Brilliant, in parts.

My originial objection to your post was that I thought that the Bulls were giving up too much for 30 year old Eddie Jones. Age is a factor. And, so is his contract.

HJ's I thought was fair to both sides. I previously said that for Riles to do this, he'd 1) Have to like Eddie Robinson's game, offensively and defensively, AND believe that he is healthy and 2) Like Marcus Fizer. Bagaric and Hoiberg are what they are so there is little confusion there. I also think that Riles doesn't have a lot of depth right now, having mortgaged his picks over the years to try to win in the playoffs, only to be disappointed with losses to the Knicks every year. So, I really think HJ's offer is one Riles should accept, if JK were to put it on the table. He gets Robinson to play alongside Butler, Fizer to give him someone to play PF if Grant is in the middle, and Bagaric is simply a big body who might surprise. With Robinson and Fizer in the deal, I can't believe a realist in Miami would turn this down.

Anyway, I think every team needs two competent point guards, minimum. Injuries do happen. The Bulls have two in Jamal and Jay. I really don't see them trading either one. Not in the short term. And I still see them bringing in another point as insurance until Mason recovers, which will be in quite some time.


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## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

If Riles is serious about his "we're rebuilding" statements, I'd offer him ERob, Fizer, Bags and Hassell for Jones and a 2nd round pick, and I think he'd take it. At least if he's smart (and I think he is).

Zo's contract is off the books next season. He saves over $1 mil by exchanging Jones' contract for ERob's, plus Fizer, Bags and Hassell (each of the last 3 he can cut loose if he doesn't want them, clearing even more cap room- but I think he'll keep the young talent).

It'll be easy for him to have enough cap room to sign a max FA *and* have a nucleus of: 

PG- Carter
SG- Butler, Hassell
SF- ERob
PF- Fizer, Gatling
C- Grant
And next year's lottery pick 

That's a pretty decent nucleus for Riles to attract a free agent. That nucleus wouldn't attract a free agent to play for Brian Winter, but Riles is sort of respected around the league. And Riles can pull a Magic of 1999-2000 (Riles is twice the coach Doc is) and win 30-35 games this season with a roster of:

PG- Best, Carter
SG- Butler, Hassell
SF- ERob
PF- Fizer, LaPhanso Ellis
C- Grant, Bags
Plus whatever veteran FA's Riles picks up by the start of the season.


Why I'd do it if I'm the Bulls:

1- So we can make the playoffs this year. Krause has already said for the record that the summer of 2002 was the last summer in the lottery- and let's face it, 4 years is long enough for Krause to build the team he wants (considering the method he used). The earlier we get Jay, JC, TC and EC in the playoffs, the better.

2- We give up none of our future nucleus, which is JayWill, JC, TC and EC- Krause will add a SF who is an outstanding defender when these 4 are ready to compete for a championship. Hassell is a fine defender who would fit in here nicely in the future, but I don't think Riles does the trade without him. But for our purposes, he's easily replaceable- hell, Krause got Trent in the 2nd round, he got a great defender in Artest at #16, and I'm sure he'll find us another stud defender (if Mason isn't already the heir apparent for that role).

3- We shorten the hell out of our rotation- this is a nice 8-man rotation for next season:

PG- JC 22 min, Jay 26
SG- Jones 36 min, JC 8, Rose 4 
SF- Rose 36 min, Marshall 12
PF- Chandler 12 min, Marshall 24, Blount 12
C- Curry 30 min, Chandler 18

Everyone would be happy with their minutes:

Rose 40
Jones 36
Marshall 36
JC 30
Chandler 30
Curry 30
JayWill 26
Blount 12

Of course, we have to account for EC and TC getting into foul trouble, and players will get hurt during the season.

Hoiberg is still on the roster, so we'd need to sign 3 players for the veterans minimum- a PG (Crotty, Damon Jones, Brunson), a wing player (Langhi, because he can shoot the 3), and a banger (Oakley?).

Yeah, I know- Oakley? You heard it here first, but don't be surprised if Oak is a Bull this season. Why?

1- Oak is from Cleveland and went to college in Virginia, why would he spend his summer working out at the Berto- the home of the team that (made him serve his time, blew it with MJ and Pip, and whatever else he said last season)?

2- Krause LOVES Oak, he even kept a picture of Oak in his office ever since he had to trade him.

3- Oak almost averaged a double/double (9.6 pts, 9.5 reb) in 2000-2001, I'm sure he'll be much more motivated to play for the 2002-2003 Bulls, who are in serious competition for a playoff berth.

4- Oak has played in 144 career playoff games- that kind of experience will still come in handy this season late in games and down the stretch of the playoff race. As poorly as he played last season, even his staunchest haters have to admit that he was the ONLY member of our front-court last season who could get a fair call from the officials.

5- Despite the fact that Oak only wound up averaging 24.3 min/game, he was STILL the Bulls leader in defensive rebounds (4.8). Miller averaged 4.7 def reb, but by the end of the season, the Bulls #2 defensive rebounder was- yes- Marcus "I can't rebound" Fizer at 3.9 def reb/game.

6- Oak's offseason workouts are much more intense than MJ's... if MJ at 40 can be 75% of MJ at his peak, I'm sure Oak can as well. And Oak at 75% of his peak is still a damn good rebounder, defender, and most importantly, enforcer.

Look at it this way- in January of 1999, the dynasty ended. 4 seasons later, Krause has added two of the top 5 free agents from the "dream" class of 2000 that everyone coveted, two #2 picks, a #4 pick, and a #7 pick- who the hell could possibly have a problem with that?

If he makes the trade I suggested for and lands Jones, his plan will have worked EXACTLY liked he planned it- except we will have had 2 more miserable seasons, but they got us JayWill and Curry... I'd take that trade any day.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

Rebuilding teams should not be looking to trade youth for soon-to-be 32 year old guards. Eddie Jones will make the Bulls somewhat better in the short term, but worse in the long term. The Bulls young players need to play to improve, not sit and watch.


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## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> Rebuilding teams should not be looking to trade youth for soon-to-be 32 year old guards. Eddie Jones will make the Bulls somewhat better in the short term, but worse in the long term. The Bulls young players need to play to improve, not sit and watch.


To be picky, Jones turns 31 in October, not 32.  

And in my scenario, here are the minutes our young nucleus gets:

JayWill 26
Jamal 30
Tyson 30
Eddy 30

Those 4 are our nucleus, in a few years they will be surrounded by veterans and role players who play D.

Don't you think that's plenty of minutes for each of them this season?


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> To be picky, Jones turns 31 in October, not 32.


You're right... my mistake.



> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> Don't you think that's plenty of minutes for each of them this season?


Perhaps there are. I just don't see the logic in trading youth for a guy in his 30's. Krause sacrificed the past 3 seasons in order to get young. Now we want to loose patience and trade the youth away for a guy on the downside of his career?

I like JWill, Crawford, and Hassell as players. I'd like the three of them to get the majority of the guard minutes to see what they can do. I want to see what ERob can do when healthy. I want to see if Fizer can take his game up another notch in his third year. I want to see these guys take their lumps and grow together as a team. In order to do that they have to be on the floor, not on the bench.

Trading for an Eddie Jones is something a team that made it to the second round of the playoffs does to try and get over the hump.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> You're right... my mistake.
> 
> ...



*Trading for an Eddie Jones is something a team that made it to the second round of the playoffs does to try and get over the hump.*

That is a logical statement. Makes sense. But then again, JK has tried for the last two years to get EJ. There has to be a reason why. I just think that if EJ was offered to us, JK would pull the trigger.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

From what I've heard, though ERob has been offered in trade, Krause has not been actively trying to unload him.

Eddie Jones is a very good player and clearly has been a Krause favorite. However, I think the time for Jones on the Bulls has passed, at least in terms of giving up a great deal to get him.

I'm convinced that Krause is looking to be better this year...no playoffs. In 2003-04, I think they're looking to make the dance...no championship. In 2004-05, they make their serious run.

If this is the plan, Jones, who will be 34 when the Bulls begin to make a serious run, is at the outside edge of being useful to the plan.

Net, just because Krause wanted him 2-3 years ago doesn't mean he wants him now.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

I don't see the logic just contained to this scenario as outlined by Kneepad

Does Eddie Jones take the T'Wolves over the top?

Or the Mavs ? 

Or the Hornets ? 

Or the Raps ?

etc etc 

Trading for Eddie Jones to complement the other two primary vets - Rose and Marshall achieves a true vet core 

It is also a something a young team does to stop the spiral of losing seasons that may help distill confidence in our young core faster and most importantly givs them an early taste of playoff success - instead of floudering longer than the have to on "the journey is the reward argument "

I regard our essential young core as Jay, Eddy, Tyson and Trent - anyone who doesnt make us better now and builds this core's confidence and growth- is surplus who is fair game for legit players with physical skills now but whose mental approach to the game will also carry them longer in their usefulness when their physical skills begin to slide in a few years.

Bottom line - Trading for EJ to mature the youth that comes from confidence in winning more than what we lose now makes every bit as much sense to me to an abstract theory of EJ for a 2nd round playoff team - and hoping he will be the hump buster

ERob and Fizer ( Hoiberg and Blount ) is no big deal for me if it landed EJ in Chi ( and Shard and Spoon in Miami )


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## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really dont think Krause is going to pull the trigger on any deal for EJ as long as Jamal Crawford is in the deal, because then Krause will be down to just one PG in JW and I dont think he is quite that much in love with EJ or crazy enough to trade down to only one PG.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Without getting into how Eddie Robinson is extremely overrated, IMO, I think that this trade doesn't work out for Miami... for the Bulls, it's an excellent trade as far as personnel and "player value", but it might not be as awesome as people might think...

My qualm is team chemistry. Jones is a good slasher, shooter, and defender, but he also takes on a lot of individual burden offensively. His passing skills aren't awesome... about average for someone with his level of basketball talent. He's a decent rebounding guard. He can hit the three with a degree of consistency. 

But how does he do when inserted into the triangle offense? Yeah, he can take his defender to school but what about the passing? Will he capitalize on the double-teams he will draw and find the big man waiting to put it in, or the open guy on the wing? 

The answer is, I don't know. Jalen Rose was someone that we all heartily agreed would be PERFECT for the triangle offense... a strong passing guard/forward type, good overall game and the ability to score.

But Eddie Jones? Is he the fit we're looking for?

Let us consider basketball players as more than just packages of skills to be thrown into a mix.. let us consider how the team works together with a new addition (and also, with some subtractions). Overall, Eddie Jones would find SOME way to fit in, and it would probably improve the team over Robinson/Hoiberg/Fizer or whoever you want to put in there... our team has enough young depth that we can afford to trade some of the lesser younger talents away. But in reality, Jones might see a big difference in the way his game changes in the triangle and playing with an offense already built around Rose and Curry.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> I don't see the logic just contained to this scenario as outlined by Kneepad. Does Eddie Jones take the T'Wolves over the top? Or the Mavs ? Or the Hornets ? Or the Raps ? etc etc


Eddie Jones probably wouldn't make sense for the Raps or Mavs because they have star players already at 2 guard. But you don't think he would help the T'Wolves (assuming they could slide Wally over to 3)? Or Hornets? Or, say, the Nets or Celtics? Or how 'bout the Kings for that matter?



> Trading for Eddie Jones to complement the other two primary vets - Rose and Marshall achieves a true vet core


A valid opinion. But in my opinion all that accomplishes is take crucial minutes away from the younger guys. Rose and Marshall are enough of a veteran core (along with Blount and Hoiberg). We have 3 young guards who all deserve serious minutes. EJ just takes too many of those minutes away, IMO.



> It is also a something a young team does to stop the spiral of losing seasons that may help distill confidence in our young core


I guess I don't see how bringing in a "hired gun" helps young players' confidence. I would rather see the young guys figure out how to win for themselves. If these young players are any good, they'll start winning sooner rather than later. And if they're not any good, we need to find that out.

Hope this helps clarify my position.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Yeah it does

TWolves are fundamentally screwed and it all revolves around KG ( IMO ) EJ would not make a bundle of difference - their problems are beyond this kind of help . Wolves would still likely get spanked in the 1st round - may make it to the 2nd for the first time if they are lucky.

Nets and Celts are already EC finalists and Celts need help upfront in the worst possible way . Eric and Walter are perfect for Pierce and Walker in the swing spots. There is no real need for Eddie in BeanTown. The Nets are a dead eye dick shooter away from a serious challenge and Kittles and Harris work well at the 2 spot and you also have Brandon Armstrong that could emerge as their dark horse. You have DickJeff at 3 backed by Rodney Rogers . If they could have added Walt Williams , Scott Padgett or Dan Langhi for that 3rd spot at 3 - they would be formidable.

So I just don't see EJ helping /creating the difference in Jersey or Boston 

The Hornets are already in the 2nd round too . Yeah I could see how the Hornets could use him . Fair enough . Mash at 3 , EJ at 2 backed by Nailon ,Augmon and Alexander ( move Lynch ) Yeah that works 

*Maybe Elden Campbell ( expiring contract ) George Lynch ( gotta be a Riley favourite ) and Courtney Alexander work for EJ and Phonz Ellis ? 

Baron
EJ
Mash
PJ
Magliore

backed by Wes, Augmon, Nailon, Phonz, Haston, Moiso, Tractor

You might have an EC finalist there and perhaps a worthy contender

*

The Kings ? 

On a one on one level EJ is an upgrade over Doug Christie but they don't use Doug to score - just to defend where he is up there with EJ - then you have the emerging Turkoglu, Peja and Gerald Wallace - the offense is CWebb, Peja and Bibby - can't see room for EJ - maybe the quintessential 3rd option - as he would be on that Hornets team above with Mash and Baron

So I think he could really help the Hornets on the base of your original assertion that he can only help a playoff team over the hump.

* Minutes *

I don't know if EJ would take minutes away 

Marshall would play say 28 minutes between the 4 and 3 spots - Jalen would play 35 minutes at the 3 and 1 , EJ around 33 minutes at the 2 and 3 spots and Trent at around 23 minutes at the 2 

Jay and Jamal split 45 minutes at the point 

If Marshall was playing 20 minutes at PF and 8 at SF there would be 28 minutes at PF 

Tyson takes 20 here and Lonny 8 

Tyson plays 8 at Center , Eddy Curry 28 at Center and Bags fills out the remaining 12 minutes 

That's a larger than preferable rotation ( principally upfront with Lonny and Bags ) but :

A. Eddy and Tyson will get into foul trouble some nights that give up minutes to Bags and Lonny

B. Yell has shown history of injury that will deepen the rotation

Ideally we would have an 8 - 9 man rotation which drops Lonny and Bags off the key - but the swing spots are all pretty well distributed 

The ideal 8 man rotation would be Curry,Chandler, Rose, EJ and Jay with Marshall, Hassell and Crawford as the 3 reserves. 

How do the young guys not get their minutes and develop - they'd just be doing it with 3 highly productive vets in the 8 man rotation - that's nice balance.

* Confidence *

Fair point you make and I guess I am a rational Darwinist deep down myself 

However.. I accept the lack of emotional maturity that a lot of these kids come into the show with . Not everyone has the head of Citizen Shane Battier. 

Look at the last 4 years - do you think it could have been different for Elton and Ron Artest - hell even Ron Mercer who was still young and developing if they had of had some legitimate big swinging dick vet help.

Word is is that Elt could not cop it anymore and we all witnessed the mania of Ron Artest.

If it takes 3- 4 years for these kids to drag themselves up by the bootlaces - we only have them for 5 if they don't agree to the extension - if we lose them in free agency in that time because we could not season our side with legit productive vets who could elp lighten the load - then what is the point ?

The risk that you run ( if you invest wholly and soley in youth with disproportionate investment in vets ) is that you flounder longer than you need too

And whether you and I agree with it or not - the rule in pro sports is "live and die by committee" - even if everyone wants to "be the man" Very few pros really truly want to be "the man" with what that entails . Just put me on a winner ( rather than create one ) give me my love ( money , endorsements , music videos and cameo movie roles ) and be content with "playing the part" of a winner without legitimately trying to be one off your own accord 

All this diatribe means is that you have to build a support structure for where your investment is in youth - they don't have that and you see rebuidling the rebuilding efforts we saw with Brand and Artest - and as we are almost seeing with Marcus and Jamal ( our 2000 draft ) being often mentioned in trade talks

I see our primary investment for the future is in Eddy , Tyson and Jay - and secondary to that Jamal and Trent - anything that we can do to support them , lighten the mental burden of expectation which IMO would destroy more of them than it would help over the medium to longer term -should help our long term strategy of nuturing them so they can gradually assume control at their pace in a more protected envionment - not from the impatient fans who want to see them dominating and winning games off their own accord now when they are not up to it to be consistent winners off their own steam now.

EJ ( in my scenario ) would cost us Marcus and ERob - no great shakes for me


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

*Eddie Jones's value*

I didn't really want to get into a detailed analysis of the needs of those other teams. Fact is, there's an abundance of quality 2 guards in the league at the moment, and maybe you're right that the better teams are basically set at that position. Still, I seem to remember in the WCF the Lakers basically daring Christie to take open jumpers, which he was forced to do and missed. He makes those shots, and the Kings are very likely your NBA champions. Would the Lakers have left EJ open to take those shots?

Nets and Celts may be EC finalists, but miles away from the elite of the West (as the Finals showed). I think EJ is a strong upgrade over Kittles if the Nets wanted to make one more run with Deke and before they loose Kidd.

Wolves are dying for anyone to help take some of the load off KG. I think EJ could help do that. Agree, though, probably not enough to get them to the Finals.


*Minutes*

I'll concede the minutes could possibly be worked out, depending on who was given in the trade to acquire EJ to begin with. But the point is we'd be trading promising youth for a guy who'll be 31. If you've already written off Fizer and ERob, then yeah, maybe it's a no-brainer. Me, not being able to see these guys in practice, I want to see what they do on the court this year before giving up on them. I honestly have not seem ERob play much at all-- I didn't catch the playoff series when he was with the Hornets-- but I do remember the near frenzy reaction back on the kiddie board when the Bulls signed him. It amazes me that people are writing him off now after one just one unproductive year trying to play through an injury.


*Confidence*

Elton, Artest, and Mercer didn't have Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall. And no, I don't think it would have made any difference even if they had. Elton would have been fine had he stayed a Bull. Artest is crazy any way you slice it (I don't think we as fans know the half of it). And Mercer just sucks.

If it takes 3-4 years for our young core to start winning more than they're loosing, then we've got the wrong players. There is some serious young talent on this team, and all they need is to gain some experience and learn to play with each other and success will come. The ultimate level of success depends, but I guarantee you they will not continue to loose 60 games a year. Throw'em out there and let'em earn their stripes. They'll be fine.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> [If it takes 3-4 years for our young core to start winning more than they're loosing, then we've got the wrong players. There is some serious young talent on this team, and all they need is to gain some experience and learn to play with each other and success will come. The ultimate level of success depends, but I guarantee you they will not continue to loose 60 games a year. Throw'em out there and let'em earn their stripes. They'll be fine.


No worries

But would it be correct of me to say then that you think : 

If we add no more vet talent and work soley with what we have got - that if we do not win 42 games the season after this coming one ( IE 2003/2004 ) that we will have the wrong players?

In other words these guys have 2 years to win more than they lose for them to be judged worthy ?


I respect your opinion Knee- I just figure that Donnie Walsh had a better system in place to blood Al Harrington and Jon Bender , Kobe had a more protected environment in LA , Jermaine O'Neal had a more protected environment in Portland ( before they inexplicably lost him to the Pacers ) and TMac didnt have the pressure in Toronto ( before they inexplicably lost him to Orlando )

Maybe KG was pushed out there a little bit early and endured but the percentages show that the smart play for guys so young is to nurture them more rather than giving them the Kurt Cobain howl 

_* Here we are now - entertain us * 

From : Smells like Teen Spirit _

If you can give the kids the minutes and give them prominent important roles but within a tightly woven vet support system that can serve as their auxilary unit when they are faltering - that's our opportunity to nurture ( mollycuddle ?? ) and tie these talents up long term by playing the game very carefully ( and strategically ) with them 

We want careers from them - not parts thereof


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Dealing some of the lesser lights like Fizer and Erob for experianced vet talent is fine by me, but can't agree with the following logic:



> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> I just figure that Donnie Walsh had a better system in place to blood Al Harrington and Jon Bender , Kobe had a more protected environment in LA , Jermaine O'Neal had a more protected environment in Portland ( before they inexplicably lost him to the Pacers ) and TMac didnt have the pressure in Toronto ( before they inexplicably lost him to Orlando )


Our guys are more talented than Harrington and Bender and should be given more responsibility earlier. Kobe had it from the start - he was taking the clutch shots in the playoffs (and airballing) in his first season. O'Neal and TMac parted ways with their first teams arguably because they were not thrown them into the mix and given a big enough role during their first few years in the league.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Whatever...

You will note that I stated that the Blazers and Raps inexplicably lost Jermaine and TMac which I agree was due to the fact that they were not featured enough ( and in the Raps case they still had a bad rap as a free agency sieve ) and when you have young talent that you do not feature enough you always run that risk - just as you run the risk of losing them if responsibility is disproportionate ( that is if you live and die on the rooks every night ) and they get jack of the losing and bolt to better situations when they can

Kobe was featured and had responsibility and still had a proper support system around him where he could develop into what he is .

Whether you think Curry and Chandler are more talented than Harrington and Bender is a moot counter point to the original point that was made which was that Walsh a] didnt have to feature then early out of necessity because of a vet core that was in place and b] perhaps Bird was philsophically opposed to it anyway and was there to win now - although I think he did a fine job of blooding Harrington and giving him enough to develop such that he is now a vital core of their future. Bender was not as advanced physically ( and perhaps mentally ) and therefore did not get big minutes early on 

If you understood my initial point and read through this thread where it has been stated - I am an advocate of featuring them straight away and playing heavy minutes but you also need a proper support system in place that ( IMO ) we are one quality vet short of at the moment 

And that vet has to be a swing player that can push the majority of Marshall's minutes into the 4 spot where a principal 3 man rotation of Curry, Chandler and Marshall is worked at the 4 and 5 spots - equating to on average 32.66 minutes each 

Rose, Trent and Jones are the principal 3 man rotation at the 3 and 2 spots 

Jay and Jalen take the point 

Is there a true vet core of 3 within a principal 8 man rotation ? Yes

Do Eddy, Tyson Trent, Jamal and Jay still get featured and get their opportunties ? Yes.

Can the team still be competitive on a night in night out basis with Jalen, Donyell and Jones with one of Jay/Jalen and one of Eddy/Tyson stepping up ? I say yes - and that's the support structure / auxiliary unit I am talking about without compromising the kids development 

They get to play - they have proper support - they get to win - we get to keep them 

Pretty simple concept


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> Whatever...
> 
> You will note that I stated that the Blazers and Raps inexplicably lost Jermaine and TMac which I agree was due to the fact that they were not featured enough


Inexplicable or explicable? Which is it? Whatever...



> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> Kobe was featured and had responsibility and still had a proper support system around him where he could develop into what he is .


The difference between the Bulls and teams like the Lakers and the Pacers is that the other teams already had a support system in place when they got their young talent. As you may or may not recall, they were playoff calliber teams. So using these teams as an example of how to integrate young talent may not make the most sense given the Bulls situation.



> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> If you understood my initial point and read through this thread where it has been stated - I am an advocate of featuring them straight away and playing heavy minutes but you also need a proper support system in place that ( IMO ) we are one quality vet short of at the moment


As plainly stated, I agreed with the HR's idea which you apparently support as well and only disagreed with your logic regarding the other HS to pro players.

Pretty simple, really.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)




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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> ... would it be correct of me to say then that you think :
> 
> If we add no more vet talent and work soley with what we have got - that if we do not win 42 games the season after this coming one ( IE 2003/2004 ) that we will have the wrong players?
> ...


I would not put a firm number on the number of wins I expect. But yeah, by the end of the 03-04 season I would expect the team to be playing close to .500 ball. Wouldn't you?

If not, I would think management and the coaching staff should be able to identify personnel adjustments that need to be made.

There's definitely two schools of thought on how young players should be brought along. I would argue that the players who have been thrown to the fire are no worse off-- and in many cases, better-- than those that have been coddled.


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## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> I would not put a firm number on the number of wins I expect. But yeah, by the end of the 03-04 season I would expect the team to be playing close to .500 ball. Wouldn't you?
> 
> ...


I'd agree that with most of the young talent we currently have we should be basicly a .500 club. The mistake of trading for a vet such as EJ is that his contract is high and he will have to be replaced quickly because his skills will deteriorate. He wont be a producer when the Bulls are ready to contend for championships.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> I would not put a firm number on the number of wins I expect. But yeah, by the end of the 03-04 season I would expect the team to be playing close to .500 ball. Wouldn't you?


Yeah I hope so 



> If not, I would think management and the coaching staff should be able to identify personnel adjustments that need to be made.
> 
> There's definitely two schools of thought on how young players should be brought along. I would argue that the players who have been thrown to the fire are no worse off-- and in many cases, better-- than those that have been coddled.


Fair enough


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