# Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay



## Basel

> I'm a 34-year-old NBA center. I'm black. And I'm gay.
> 
> I didn't set out to be the first openly gay athlete playing in a major American team sport. But since I am, I'm happy to start the conversation. I wish I wasn't the kid in the classroom raising his hand and saying, "I'm different." If I had my way, someone else would have already done this. Nobody has, which is why I'm raising my hand.
> 
> My journey of self-discovery and self-acknowledgement began in my hometown of Los Angeles and has taken me through two state high school championships, the NCAA Final Four and the Elite Eight, and nine playoffs in 12 NBA seasons.
> 
> I've played for six pro teams and have appeared in two NBA Finals. Ever heard of a parlor game called Three Degrees of Jason Collins? If you're in the league, and I haven't been your teammate, I surely have been one of your teammates' teammates. Or one of your teammates' teammates' teammates.
> 
> Now I'm a free agent, literally and figuratively. I've reached that enviable state in life in which I can do pretty much what I want. And what I want is to continue to play basketball. I still love the game, and I still have something to offer. My coaches and teammates recognize that. At the same time, I want to be genuine and authentic and truthful.
> Jason Collins
> Jason Collins played with the Celtics and Wizards this season, his 12th in the NBA.
> Andrew D. Bernstein/NBAE via Getty Images
> 
> Why am I coming out now? Well, I started thinking about this in 2011 during the NBA player lockout. I'm a creature of routine. When the regular season ends I immediately dedicate myself to getting game ready for the opener of the next campaign in the fall. But the lockout wreaked havoc on my habits and forced me to confront who I really am and what I really want. With the season delayed, I trained and worked out. But I lacked the distraction that basketball had always provided.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/magazine/news/20130429/jason-collins-gay-nba-player/#ixzz2RrlbASAU


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## Gonzo

Who?


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## Ben

Hopefully in a few years time this won't be so uncommon.


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## Bogg

Hm, this is certainly an interesting development. He can probably go the Juwan Howard route and come off the bench for teams into his forties just by being a seven-foot post defender who's also a good locker room guy. Come to think of it, he'd be a good fit for the end of the bench in Miami just in case they come up against a Roy Hibbert or Dwight Howard in the playoffs. 

As far as the gay thing goes, at this point in time it'll probably generate more headlines than anything else. I'm sure someone in the league will say something really dumb in the next year and we'll also get at least one distasteful crowd chant, but all in all it'll be an "oh...okay" event to the vast majority of players and fans.

Lastly, I bet that we get a really interesting book out of him in the next five years.


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## roux

Good for him


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## Floods

Oh boy.

Wait, he's only 34? Seems like he's been around forever. For the past few years I've had him in my head as one of those pushing-40 guys.


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## e-monk

didnt Amaechi do this already? or does it not count because he had retired by then?


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## roux

e-monk said:


> didnt Amaechi do this already? or does it not count because he had retired by then?


I think it matters because Collins wants to contiue his career, but this should be interesting, Collins is a free agent, so i am curious to see what kind of market he generates...its not like he is a good player so the end of the road could have been coming for him regardless


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## King Sancho Fantastic

Good for him!


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## Basel

A few NBA players have already come out supporting Collins.


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## kbdullah

roux2dope said:


> I think it matters because Collins wants to contiue his career, but this should be interesting, *Collins is a free agent, so i am curious to see what kind of market he generates...its not like he is a good player so the end of the road could have been coming for him regardless*


Exactly...a lot has been made of him being an active player, but he could end up retiring. And if he does retire, I hope it doesn't become a thing where people just start speculating left and right on why he didn't get a deal.


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## Bogg

roux2dope said:


> I think it matters because Collins wants to contiue his career, but this should be interesting, Collins is a free agent, so i am curious to see what kind of market he generates...its not like he is a good player so *the end of the road could have been coming for him regardless*


There's always a market for big guys who'll play acceptable defense and be a positive influence in the locker room for the league minimum. Collins has at least two or three one-year minimum contracts left in him.


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## Ron

> _*Kobe Bryant ‏@kobebryant*
> Proud of @jasoncollins34. Don't suffocate who u r because of the ignorance of others #courage #support #mambaarmystandup #BYOU_


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## Ron

This is definitely a "feel good" moment in professional sports. Hopefully, this act will lead the way for more pro athletes to declare and eventually end the homophobia that exists in pro sports.


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## e-monk

where's Karl Malone when you need him?


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## Knick Killer

Ben said:


> Hopefully in a few years time this won't be so uncommon.


I hope so too. Homophobia in today's day and age is beyond pathetic.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Geaux Tigers

Even though he's not a major player and is probably at the tail end of his career, this is an important step. I hope he gets re-signed and can help pave the way for future players and people in general to be comfortable in their own skin. Its a sign of the times, people don't care as much about others being gay as they did even 10 years ago. There will be some idiots like always, but the majority of America is probably happy that this happened.


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## letsgoceltics

IMO, he just raised his market value. You know he's going to be on the Ellen Degeneres show in a month or two.


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## doctordrizzay

Ron said:


>


Wow didn't expect Kobe to say something like that.


Good for Collins though, seems like people in the NBA are taking it very well. Just waiting for those who expose their ignorance.


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## Hibachi!

Not only is this a huge milestone for active players, it's important that the reaction from around the league has been nothing short of very supportive. Tweets from Kobe, Faried, Steve Nash, and the rest of the players sends a strong message to the rest of those in the league that still live in fear day to day. It's a big milestone for the NBA, which really worked on its image. Glad to see everyone stepping up to the plate with their support.


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## FSH

And Mike Wallace is the first idiot from a major sport to tweet something dumb about this


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## Floods

Looks like he's already deleted the tweet.


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## Porn Player

Faried is up next.


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## RollWithEm

letsgoceltics said:


> IMO, he just raised his market value. You know he's going to be on the Ellen Degeneres show in a month or two.


This is true. Coming out at this particular time during the playoffs while he's a free agent is almost definitely a ploy by him to get another contract.


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## King Sancho Fantastic

Broussard with the foot in mouth moment...


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## RollWithEm

King Sancho Fantastic said:


> Broussard with the foot in mouth moment...


Link?


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## Basel

What'd Wallace and Broussard do?


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## Floods

> Speaking on ESPN’s Outside The Lines, Chris Broussard said that he would “not characterize [Collins] as a Christian.” He made the comments in front of his openly gay colleague, LZ Granderson:
> 
> BROUSSARD: Personally, I don’t believe that you can live an openly homosexual lifestyle or an openly, like premarital sex between heterosexuals. If you’re openly living that type of lifestyle, then the Bible says you know them by their fruits. It says that, you know, that’s a sin. If you’re openly living in unrepentant sin, whatever it may be, not just homosexuality, whatever it maybe, I believe that’s walking in open rebellion to God and to Jesus Christ. So I would not characterize that person as a Christian because I don’t think the bible would characterize them as a Christian.


Lol. Kill yourself Broussard.


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## Porn Player

The Bible. Ha. What a piece of shit.


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## Wade2Bosh

Found it interesting that ESPN would put Broussard up there on Sportscenter and OTL even though they knew his views on this subject. Gonna be interesting to now see how they handle the backlash that he'll get and how they use him over the next few weeks.


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## roux

I dont think it is wrong for anybody to have different views on this subject as long as they are presented to the world responsibly. If you are in the media and can't handle this like a mature adult you dont belong on tv.


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## doctordrizzay

Porn Player said:


> The Bible. Ha. What a piece of shit.


How is that book still around?


I was wondering why Lebron hasn't tweeted about this. But then I realized that he turned off all communications to the outside world haha.


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## Porn Player

doctordrizzay said:


> How is that book still around?


Yes, I wanted to elicit a reaction. But hot damn, I didn't want to get the board troll on side. 

I may need to take up religion.


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## doctordrizzay

Porn Player said:


> Yes, I wanted to elicit a reaction. But hot damn, I didn't want to get the board troll on side.
> 
> I may need to take up religion.


They don't call me the second coming of Andy Kaufman for nothing


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## Krstic All-Star

Floods said:


> Lol. Kill yourself Broussard.


Betcha Broussard doesn't even know the category of sin the anti-homosexuality passage fell into. Anyone?


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## Mrs. Thang

There's nothing wrong with Broussard's distaste for homosexuality. If you are going to do the religious thing, you might as well own what it teaches. He might need a refresher course on the relationship between Christians and sin though.


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## doctordrizzay

Mrs. Thang said:


> There's nothing wrong with Broussard's distaste for homosexuality. If you are going to do the religious thing, you might as well own what it teaches. He might need a refresher course on the relationship between Christians and sin though.


And there was nothing wrong with the distaste for black people a hundred years ago? Doesn't the bible endorse slavery? and say the world is 6000 years old? and is flat?


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## l0st1

roux2dope said:


> I dont think it is wrong for anybody to have different views on this subject as long as they are presented to the world responsibly. If you are in the media and can't handle this like a mature adult you dont belong on tv.


I agree with this. Though he is probably going to be destroyed for those comments.


Just found this...

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/04/29/1937171/worst-reactions-jason-collins/?mobile=nc

The Mark jackson part kind of surprised me with the executive of the team being gay.


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## Krstic All-Star

doctordrizzay said:


> And there was nothing wrong with the distaste for black people a hundred years ago?


That wasn't biblical - the Bible was used as a justification, which is not the same thing.



> Doesn't the bible endorse slavery?


Slavery in the Bible, and in the ancient world for that matter, bore extraordinarily little resemblance to what was practiced in the South [or in other parts of the world, absent the pseudo-biblical justifications]



> and say the world is 6000 years old?


That's a screwier one, best answered (at least from the Jewish perspective, which is the one in which I am expert) by the canon of interpretation that literal translation is the most simplistic level, particularly as applied to the book of Genesis. Moreover, the 6000 year timeframe is most properly interpreted as the age of humanity, not to be confused with the kabbalistically-derived age of the universe. 



> and is flat?


Not really, no.


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## Knick Killer

Smh at Mike Wallace. What a dumbass.


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## MemphisX

Basel said:


> A few NBA players have already come out supporting Collins.


Are you allowed to do anything else in this country?


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## Basel

I personally don't agree with it. Not homophobia. Not for any religious reasons. Just a personal belief. To each his own, though.


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## Mrs. Thang

Mrs. Thang said:


> There's nothing wrong with Broussard's distaste for homosexuality. If you are going to do the religious thing, you might as well own what it teaches. He might need a refresher course on the relationship between Christians and sin though.


This isn't worded great... of course his views on the subject are wrong, but I don't think they are "offensive". Saying somebody isn't a Christian for leading a "sinful" lifestyle isn't much of a denouncement. Does that really bother people?


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## doctordrizzay

Basel said:


> I personally don't agree with it. Not homophobia. Not for any religious reasons. Just a personal belief. To each his own, though.


So you don't agree that what he feels about dudes is real? Or you just don't like the fact that him and another dude can have a loving relationship like any other human?


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## Basel

I believe what he feels is real. I just don't like the idea of homosexuality. It's how I was raised and my mind isn't changing on it. Better Jason Collins than someone in my family or some of my friends.


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## doctordrizzay

Basel said:


> I believe what he feels is real. I just don't like the idea of homosexuality. It's how I was raised and my mind isn't changing on it. Better Jason Collins than someone in my family or some of my friends.


Ah yes Ignorance is bliss.


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## Basel

Sure.


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## hobojoe

Mrs. Thang said:


> This isn't worded great... of course his views on the subject are wrong, but I don't think they are "offensive". Saying somebody isn't a Christian for leading a "sinful" lifestyle isn't much of a denouncement. Does that really bother people?


I'd venture to guess the vast majority of posters on this site had sex before marriage and wouldn't be offended or bothered if Broussard told them to their face that he didn't consider them a Christian. He's entitled to feel that way and say that.


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## MemphisX

doctordrizzay said:


> Ah yes Ignorance is bliss.


What is funny is that you think you are enlightened. However, I do not see the difference between saying everyone who is opposed to homosexuality is bigot or homophobe is any different than religious people saying anyone who thinks differently than them is going to hell.


I am against homosexuality and I have no problem saying it.


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## Basel

It's not even for religious reasons for me. I'm not a religious person at all. I just don't like it - I'm with MemphisX on this one.


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## seifer0406

Good for Collins. I'm sure there are other gay players in the league and hopefully they come out after seeing how people reacted to Collins coming out.


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## hobojoe

I disagree with both of you in that I have no problem with homosexuality, but I don't think any less of you for believing differently. You're entitled to feel that way and it doesn't offend me. Now if you were to discriminate against someone because they're gay or participate in hateful acts, of course that's where I'd have a problem with you.


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## Basel

Yeah, I would never do that. I know gay people and I've worked with gay people and it's never been an issue with me. I don't have to agree to it but it doesn't mean I would discriminate against them. Just keep it in private and I'm okay with it.


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## John

Basel said:


> A few NBA players have already come out supporting Collins.


Or a few NBA gays?


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## Dre

A lot of these athletes dip in the peanut butter behind closed doors so it don't even matter. It's not even something that's not pretty much known in most locker rooms, it's just not broadcast to the world. Remember what the Florida State QB said about him and his teammates wondering why Darnell Dockett was hanging with this or that person...or the shit that just came up with Kerry Rhodes...that's how it is. An open secret..that DL shit is real

The way it is now with that whole issue...if anyone even thought of saying something or ostracizing a guy because of that he'd get crucified so even if they disagreed with it they'd put those feelings up. Plus most of the big stars are around all kinds of openly gay people because they run the entertainment industry...in 2013 it's really not even a big deal, if anything they're trivializing it by making someone have to stump and act like he's Pat Tillman just because he's admitting he likes guys

Good for him...what's kind of funny about this is it's only a matter of time before people start confusing Jarron and Jason cause I always did


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## tha supes

I don't get why people can't understand that there are people who aren't going to accept it. Homosexuality isn't something everyone can agree on, and everyone think is right. So the people who are calling one side, "idiots", "ignorant", and "pieces of shit" are the ones that should ***k off and go to hell just as much as the ones who directly use the words "fa***t" and "queer" straight to homosexuals. 

Ooh, lets hate and make fun of people for their opinions they've had since birth that they've most likely grown in life accustomed to having. (This applies to both sides)


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## Mrs. Thang

Basel said:


> I believe what he feels is real. I just don't like the idea of homosexuality. It's how I was raised and my mind isn't changing on it. Better Jason Collins than someone in my family or some of my friends.


Not to brow beat you about it, but what you are saying is literally the definition of homophobia.


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## Basel

I guess when it comes to family and friends, I am. It would probably change my relationship with friends and/or family members if they were gay. Not to the level I wouldn't hang out with them or anything like that, but I would think differently of them. 

But with just the average gay person, whatever. Like I said, I've worked with gay people and I know gay people (hell, a ton of customers at my job are gay and I don't say anything - treat them like I do everyone else). As long as they're not hitting on me or doing anything in public, I'm okay with it, even if I'm against it.


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## Hibachi!

Oh lord Chris Brousard. If he has ever had sex out of wedlock he should not describe himself as a Christian either. Picking and choosing with what is described as a sin in the bible. Typical hypocrisy.


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## doctordrizzay

Basel said:


> I guess when it comes to family and friends, I am. *It would probably change my relationship with friends and/or family members if they were gay. Not to the level I wouldn't hang out with them or anything like that, but I would think differently of them.*
> 
> But with just the average gay person, whatever. Like I said, I've worked with gay people and I know gay people (hell, a ton of customers at my job are gay and I don't say anything - treat them like I do everyone else). As long as they're not hitting on me or doing anything in public, I'm okay with it, even if I'm against it.


Seem's homophobic to me. It shouldn't change your view them because of what they do in the bedroom...they've been like that their whole life so you've been around it.

It's just me though I mean if you want to put your nose into what people do in the bedroom that's you. You can waste your energy worrying about wear some dudes dick is going. 

The point is, you shouldn't care in the first place.


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## Basel

Question to all those supporting it: how would you react to your kids being gay? Just wondering.


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## seifer0406

tha supes said:


> I don't get why people can't understand that there are people who aren't going to accept it. Homosexuality isn't something everyone can agree on, and everyone think is right. So the people who are calling one side, "idiots", "ignorant", and "pieces of shit" are the ones that should ***k off and go to hell just as much as the ones who directly use the words "fa***t" and "queer" straight to homosexuals.
> 
> Ooh, lets hate and make fun of people for their opinions they've had since birth that they've most likely grown in life accustomed to having. (This applies to both sides)


If someone told you that they believe that they should be able to own black people as slaves wouldn't you think their view is a little weird?

I don't agree with calling those people idiots but I understand how someone would feel strongly about this issue especially if they have close friends or relatives that are gay.


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## tha supes

seifer0406 said:


> If someone told you that they believe that they should be able to own black people as slaves wouldn't you think their view is a little weird?


Nevermind, re-read, I interpreted it wrong.


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## doctordrizzay

Basel said:


> Question to all those supporting it: how would you react to your kids being gay? Just wondering.


My brother is gay. And I don't give a ****, never have and never will. He didn't change over night...He's been the same person his whole life. 

If my kid's are gay I don't care. As long as they are good human beings it shouldn't matter. Get good grades and have a good life nobody has a say to what you feel about others. Its how you feel, You can't be ashamed of it because it's just what you are.


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## Basel

More power to you guys who are more accepting of it than I am. That's great. But just like gay people have been that way their whole life, this is also how I've been my whole life. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject.


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## seifer0406

tha supes said:


> Nevermind, re-read, I interpreted it wrong.


If you think that being gay is a choice then I don't see the point of arguing with you. Not that I feel one of us is more intelligent, just that this point alone pretty much kills any possible debate.


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## doctordrizzay

Basel said:


> More power to you guys who are more accepting of it than I am. That's great. But just like gay people have been that way their whole life, this is also how I've been my whole life. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject.


Yeah but you chose not to accept it.


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## Hibachi!

Basel said:


> Question to all those supporting it: how would you react to your kids being gay? Just wondering.


There are millions of people tormented every day for being gay. Do you think Jason Collins would choose to be gay knowing that it has caused him to have to hide who he is? That it has caused him to have trouble sleeping at night? Do you think those in Iran or parts of Africa that will get executed if they are discovered to be gay CHOOSE to do so? 

If my child were to turn out gay it's because that is who he is and I would accept him/her for it. My aunt is gay and I fully support her and her lifestyle. It's who she is. It is what makes her happy. I don't choose to be attracted to women. It just so happens that it's the case. If it makes someone happy, and it's between two consenting adults, then more power to them.


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## doctordrizzay

seifer0406 said:


> If you think that being gay is a choice then I don't see the point of arguing with you. Not that I feel one of us is more intelligent, just that this point alone pretty much kills any possible debate.


I think after reading this thread and talking to people I know where every one stands on a intellectual level.


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## doctordrizzay

seifer0406 said:


> If you think that being gay is a choice then I don't see the point of arguing with you. Not that I feel one of us is more intelligent, just that this point alone pretty much kills any possible debate.





Hibachi! said:


> There are millions of people tormented every day for being gay. Do you think Jason Collins would choose to be gay knowing that it has caused him to have to hide who he is? That it has caused him to have trouble sleeping at night? Do you think those in Iran or parts of Africa that will get executed if they are discovered to be gay CHOOSE to do so?
> 
> If my child were to turn out gay it's because that is who he is and I would accept him/her for it. My aunt is gay and I fully support her and her lifestyle. It's who she is. It is what makes her happy. I don't choose to be attracted to women. It just so happens that it's the case. If it makes someone happy, and it's between two consenting adults, then more power to them.


You're a smart man. Good for you.


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## Basel

I wasn't arguing whether or not they choose it or they're born with it, anyway...


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## seifer0406

Basel said:


> Question to all those supporting it: how would you react to your kids being gay? Just wondering.


I would feel sad because he/she will live a more difficult life in today's society where gays are still discriminated against.

Other than that I wouldn't feel any different.


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## doctordrizzay

Basel said:


> I wasn't arguing whether or not they choose it or they're born with it, anyway...


So you don't agree with it knowing that they have no choice?

Okay then.


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## tha supes

seifer0406 said:


> If you think that being gay is a choice then I don't see the point of arguing with you. Not that I feel one of us is more intelligent, just that this point alone pretty much kills any possible debate.


Well what I meant was, it is more of a choice than race is. Race is something you're strictly born with, homosexuality is something that isn't with the person since birth, but rather from the brain after it gains the knowledge to comprehend attraction to other humans.


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## roux

Hibachi! said:


> Oh lord Chris Brousard. If he has ever had sex out of wedlock he should not describe himself as a Christian either. Picking and choosing with what is described as a sin in the bible. Typical hypocrisy.


Slavery is cool in the bible as well, which Broussard an African American just chooses to ignore. Religon sucks, and the people that use it to make their minds up about anything suck too...be yourself


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## Basel

doctordrizzay said:


> So you don't agree with it knowing that they have no choice?
> 
> Okay then.


I don't know that. Has it ever been proven that homosexual people are born that way? Not that I'm aware of. 

We're just going to go in circles here. Nobody's mind is going to change.


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## doctordrizzay

Basel said:


> *I don't know that. Has it ever been proven that homosexual people are born that way? Not that I'm aware of.*
> 
> We're just going to go in circles here. Nobody's mind is going to change.


If you're serious about that comment, you need to read more, get more educated, And maybe just maybe ask a gay person instead of hiding in your own brain and coming up with your own beliefs. 

Saying "That's how I grew up" is no excuse. I grew up being told that people from foreign countries like India are all thieves lie, cheat, and steal. Doesn't mean it's true or right. 

Just get educated that is all.


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## Knick Killer

I can see why homosexuality can make people feel uncomfortable and what not, but it blows my mind as to how someone could think that two people don't deserve the right to love eachother and live life happily just because they are the same sex. There is no argument that anyone could come up with that would make me understand how someone could feel that way. It doesn't affect the way you live your life in any way so why be so stubborn and selfish about it?


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## R-Star

Why the **** is there 6 pages? He's gay, who gives a ****. Why is this even news? Unless he's sexually harassing guys I don't see the story.


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## Basel

I'm not pretending to know so much about it. But I do know there's never been scientific proof (that I'm aware of) that gay people are born the way they are. 

If I'm wrong, I'll fully accept that.


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## Knick Killer

Cannot believe I'm siding with doctordrizzay in an argument but he is making some excellent points. Well done sir.


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## MemphisX

Basel said:


> Question to all those supporting it: how would you react to your kids being gay? Just wondering.


People are to PC for that one...


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## Knick Killer

R-Star said:


> Why the **** is there 6 pages? He's gay, who gives a ****. Why is this even news? Unless he's sexually harassing guys I don't see the story.


Hopefully in a couple years from now, a player coming out won't even be thread worthy. That's the world I wanna live in where sexuality doesn't matter.


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## MemphisX

seifer0406 said:


> If someone told you that they believe that they should be able to own black people as slaves wouldn't you think their view is a little weird?
> 
> I don't agree with calling those people idiots but I understand how someone would feel strongly about this issue especially if they have close friends or relatives that are gay.


Why do people try to equate homosexuality to being black.


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## R-Star

MemphisX said:


> People are to PC for that one...


It's an Internet forum, of course we aren't. And instead of some bs response, why not answer it yourself?


I'd rather my kid be straight since being gay is by no means an easy life. But if he ended up being gay Id be fine with it and support him the same as I would if he was straight. He's my boy. I'm not turning my back on him for liking boys.


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## bircan

One of my lecturers was gay and he showed us some studies regarding likelihood of a male being gay. Some how there was a relationship with how many brothers/sisters his mum had previously given birth to. And it was also related to his mum's sisters in another way. Something about chemical changes in the womb.

Not sure, I can't remember much about it and I hope I didn't get things wrong, but it seems like there are complex factors involved. It's interesting that studies are done on sexual orientation though. Sexual attraction may just be an innate thing.


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## doctordrizzay

Knick Killer said:


> Cannot believe I'm siding with doctordrizzay in an argument but he is making some excellent points. Well done sir.


:smilewink


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## MemphisX

Hibachi! said:


> *There are millions of people tormented every day for being gay. Do you think Jason Collins would choose to be gay knowing that it has caused him to have to hide who he is? That it has caused him to have trouble sleeping at night?* Do you think those in Iran or parts of Africa that will get executed if they are discovered to be gay CHOOSE to do so?
> 
> If my child were to turn out gay it's because that is who he is and I would accept him/her for it. My aunt is gay and I fully support her and her lifestyle. It's who she is. It is what makes her happy. I don't choose to be attracted to women. It just so happens that it's the case. If it makes someone happy, and it's between two consenting adults, then more power to them.



So you would accept someone being a pedophile?


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## Knick Killer

Basel said:


> Question to all those supporting it: how would you react to your kids being gay? Just wondering.


I would prefer if my child wasn't gay only because of the struggle for acceptance in todays world. If my kid was gay though I would accept them and support them 100%. If you couldn't accept your child because of something that they are more likely than not born with, you are a piece of shit.


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## Basel

R-Star said:


> Why the **** is there 6 pages? He's gay, who gives a ****. Why is this even news? Unless he's sexually harassing guys I don't see the story.


6 pages? 50 posts per page, R-Star. Come on.


----------



## MemphisX

Knick Killer said:


> I would prefer if my child wasn't gay only because of the struggle for acceptance in todays world. If my kid was gay though I would accept them and support them 100%. If you couldn't accept your child because of something that they are more likely than not born with,* you are a piece of shit.*



Funny how this works...the most name calling comes from people who support homosexuality.


----------



## doctordrizzay

Knick Killer said:


> I would prefer if my child wasn't gay only because of the struggle for acceptance in todays world. If my kid was gay though I would accept them and support them 100%. If you couldn't accept your child because of something that they are more likely than not born with, you are a piece of shit.


I have feeling Basel wasn't expecting this reaction to that question from everyone.


----------



## R-Star

Basel said:


> 6 pages? 50 posts per page, R-Star. Come on.


Don't you try to force your post per page beliefs on me!


----------



## Dre

Maybe I come at this different because I have an older gay brother so I was exposed to it..Plus I went to an Arts High School and there were dozens of openly gay students so it's like...not even something I consider..I guess I just come from a different POV with this.

My brother's friends are family just like anyone else's friends you know...people are people..so I've never really looked at homosexuals like they have some kind of force field around them you have to consider before you deal with them...like you're doing them a favor by treating them like anyone else. They respect the "boundaries" or whatever and that's that. 

If my kid was Gay then he's Gay like...whatever. It would be a little different but **** it. It's a shame people would be more accustomed and understanding if their kid was like a drug addict jailbird, but homosexuality is just some huge crossroads moment

Like I said I guess 'cause of my brother it's not something that's a foreign idea to me....but do you guys really not know that many homosexuals to where it's some huge issue that you'd have to think about how you'd come to grips with it


----------



## doctordrizzay

MemphisX said:


> Funny how this works...the most name calling comes from people who support homosexuality.


Well he said if you don't support your child your are a piece of shit. Which I don't see how you could argue that. You brought them into this world.


----------



## Basel

doctordrizzay said:


> I have feeling Basel wasn't expecting this reaction to that question from everyone.


I wasn't expecting anything. I was honestly wondering. And I also think a lot of the people who say that would feel differently if it actually happened to them - initially, anyway. 

I would hate if my son or daughter was gay. I'd still love them - they're my children, and I would learn to accept it. But it doesn't mean I'd be 100% comfortable with it. Of course, they would never know that.


----------



## Mrs. Thang

doctordrizzay said:


> If you're serious about that comment, you need to read more, get more educated, And maybe just maybe ask a gay person instead of hiding in your own brain and coming up with your own beliefs.


To be fair, he's right. You can't say somebody was born a certain way without identifying the mechanism that makes it so. People are born with a lot of things and in most cases we know exactly why. Not so with homosexuality. Jason Collins is actually strong evidence that it is a developed trait (hint: he has an identical twin).

That doesn't mean it's a conscious decision or justifys "not agreeing" with it, it's just interesting.


----------



## doctordrizzay

Basel said:


> I wasn't expecting anything. I was honestly wondering. And I also think a lot of the people who say that would feel differently if it actually happened to them - initially, anyway.
> 
> *I would hate if my son or daughter was gay*. I'd still love them - they're my children, and I would learn to accept it. But it doesn't mean I'd be 100% comfortable with it. Of course, they would never know that.


Yikes, Well I hope for their sake not yours that they arnt gay. I couldn't imagine having a father knowing that's what they think about it. That would be an awful feeling to deal with everyday since you know...It's not a choice.


----------



## Basel

They wouldn't knowing that's how I felt about it, though. I would never tell them I hate the idea of them being gay. I never said I would hate my children so let's not get it twisted.


----------



## Jace

Generalizing the other side of an argument as name-callers is really inane too. Blatant point dodging.


----------



## Mrs. Thang

MemphisX said:


> So you would accept someone being a pedophile?


The difference between concensual adult relationships and raping children? Grow up.


----------



## Dre

Me and R-Star and more people had a knockdown discussion about that and I believe I said I feel like people have those desires wired into them...and it's up to their personal life experience to draw it out or not. But I don't really want to get into another huge discussion about it


----------



## Knick Killer

MemphisX said:


> Funny how this works...the most name calling comes from people who support homosexuality.


So it would be perfectly fine for parents to not love and accept their child anymore just because they're gay?


----------



## Dre

I have to say some of the "anti" people in here sound like Archie Bunker and I would not expect it from them


----------



## Floods

MemphisX said:


> So you would accept someone being a pedophile?


Seriously? .... you should be belted across the face.


----------



## Knick Killer

doctordrizzay said:


> Well he said if you don't support your child your are a piece of shit. Which I don't see how you could argue that. You brought them into this world.


Exactly my point.


----------



## Gonzo

Just read Broussard's comments on Twitter. Not surprised, he's a douche. I hope ESPN moves on and wishes him well in his future endeavors. No one with that attitude deserves airtime on cable television other than Fox News.


----------



## Basel

Why, though? Why does Broussard have to applaud it if he doesn't believe it's right? Everyone is so politically correct these days.


----------



## Dre

Yeah I will say I don't see what the backlash against Broussard is about. He wasn't ignorant about it besides misconstruing religious text...but the catholic church does that whenever they're ready to

And I get this is the "there is no god" internet but calling a guy a POS for his spiritual beliefs is just as low as you think he's being. He's not damning Collins to fiery brimstone he's just saying it's his personal belief


----------



## doctordrizzay

Basel said:


> Why, though? Why does Broussard have to applaud it if he doesn't believe it's right? Everyone is so politically correct these days.


The phrase "Keep it to your self" come's to mind.

You don't just come out and say how Collins should live his life.


----------



## Basel

So basically, if you don't agree with something, keep it to yourself. But if you agree, feel free to speak your mind. That's just stupid.


----------



## roux

Dre said:


> Yeah I will say I don't see what the backlash against Broussard is about. He wasn't ignorant about it besides misconstruing religious text...but the catholic church does that whenever they're ready to
> 
> And I get this is the "there is no god" internet but calling a guy a POS for his spiritual beliefs is just as low as you think he's being


I just think that if you are going to step up and argue against something like this you better show up with all your bases covered or you are going to look like a dumbass.. everyone has a right to believe what they want to believe but if you are going to go on national television you better be prepared


----------



## Hibachi!

MemphisX said:


> So you would accept someone being a pedophile?


I may need to check my sources on this... But I'm pretty sure none of us are arguing for Jason Collins going around raping other men. Which is what a pedophile is. Even if we could prove that both homosexuality and pedophilia are linked to the same cause (ie a hormonal issue during birth) you wouldn't have to be accepting of a pedophile. Just as you aren't accepting of someone with schizophrenia murdering someone. 

Let's say we could scientifically prove that child A likes the color pink and child B likes to stab people simply because of genetics. They both feel a strong desire because of they are genetically predisposed to have these traits. Would you argue because I say "Hey Child A, if you like the color pink and that's what makes you happy then that makes me happy" that it would be hypocritical of me to say "Child B don't stab people because it's wrong to harm others. You're going to need to control yourself."? 

Pedophilia and homosexuality are not relatable at all. But nice try.


----------



## Dre

roux2dope said:


> I just think that if you are going to step up and argue against something like this you better show up with all your bases covered or you are going to look like a dumbass.. everyone has a right to believe what they want to believe but if you are going to go on national television you better be prepared


True. I didn't see it I just read the quotes


----------



## doctordrizzay

Basel said:


> So basically, if you don't agree with something, keep it to yourself. But if you agree, feel free to speak your mind. That's just stupid.


Like are you really serious right now? This isn't people arguing who is better Kobe or Lebron. This is dealing of what people are and telling what do to do. Seeing as you're the Admin I'd expect more from you as a human being.

And if we had it your way I would still see a sign saying "black people at the back of the bus"


----------



## Basel

It's not like Broussard was being malicious in what he was saying. If you want to see malicious, go look at the comments on the SI article and what those people are saying.

If Broussard disagrees, there's no reason for him to have to stay quiet if they ask to interview him on TV.


----------



## Hibachi!

I would say that I disagree with the sentiment that someone like Brousard should not say what he said. I would argue that this only exacerbates the problem by telling them that their argument is simply invalid and not worth speaking. By giving them this sentiment it only creates a reaction where they mentally close off, making it a me vs. them type mentality. 

Brousard is welcome and encouraged to speak his mind. It allows those to retort, and as such, opens up conversation. Open conversation is the key to any advancement. But to expect no backlash is absurd. Even more absurd is the sentiment where it's "These are my beliefs and I have a right to my beliefs." Bring something to the conversation. But I do not like this idea that Brousard should just keep his mouth shut. He has just as much right to his opinion as anyone else does. That does not mean, however, that are opinions are as equal in terms of validity as the other. It also does not mean that his statements should not be subject to scrutiny.


----------



## tha supes

doctordrizzay said:


> The phrase "Keep it to your self" come's to mind.


Only if you keep your opinions to your self, which won't happen.


----------



## Gonzo

Basel said:


> Why, though? Why does Broussard have to applaud it if he doesn't believe it's right? Everyone is so politically correct these days.


You don't have to be politically correct, and I'm probably involving my opinions too much into the argument, but in this day and age in the 21st Century, disliking "gays" is ****ing retarded. Grow up, they're people just like you and me.

Besides, it's not something like ESPN really wants to support. And definitely should not.


----------



## Knick Killer

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## roux

As Americans we look back in regret with how we treated African Americans both in slavery and throught the civil rights era, how we treated woman until the early 1900's..its sad we are always behind the rest of the world when it comes to how we treat our own citizens...hopefully in the next few years we can look back at the way we treated the gay community with just as much embarassment with how we did with Black people and women...in my opinion its either get on board with the movement now or look stupid later


----------



## Knick Killer

roux2dope said:


> As Americans we look back in regret with how we treated African Americans both in slavery and throught the civil rights era, how we treated woman until the early 1900's..its sad we are always behind the rest of the world when it comes to how we treat our own citizens...hopefully in the next few years we can look back at the way we treated the gay community with just as much embarassment with how we did with Black people and women...in my opinion its either get on board with the movement now or look stupid later


Could not have said it any better myself. This sums it up perfectly.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Jamel Irief

How would you feel if your son was gay... And his boyfriend was doctordrizzays brother? Would you be comfortable at the prospect of being related to drizzay?


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## R-Star

My son would have better taste than that.


----------



## seifer0406

Jamel Irief said:


> How would you feel if your son was gay... And his boyfriend was doctordrizzays brother? Would you be comfortable at the prospect of being related to drizzay?
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Then you kill yourself, you got to draw a line somewhere.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Jamel Irief said:


> How would you feel if your son was gay... And his boyfriend was doctordrizzays brother? Would you be comfortable at the prospect of being related to drizzay?
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Aren't we all technically related to each other?


----------



## Jamel Irief

R-Star said:


> My son would have better taste than that.


Ok, if your daughters boyfriend was doctordrizzay, would you convince her to try to be gay instead?


----------



## Adol

Here's how I think of it:

If homosexuality is a choice--if they can choose to be aroused by the same sex, then heterosexuality must be a choice too and I'm simply choosing to be aroused by the opposite sex. By that logic, if a gay person wanted to be straight he could be and if a straight person wanted to be gay they could be. But not just in theory, in actual, physical arousal. 

Now ask yourself if you could decide to be gay based on the example I've given. If the answer is no, then it must be true for the other side too.

Also it's always interesting to me how homosexuality is so much bigger of a deal when it's men as opposed to women.


----------



## MemphisX

Hibachi! said:


> I may need to check my sources on this... But I'm pretty sure none of us are arguing for Jason Collins going around raping other men. Which is what a pedophile is. Even if we could prove that both homosexuality and pedophilia are linked to the same cause (ie a hormonal issue during birth) you wouldn't have to be accepting of a pedophile. Just as you aren't accepting of someone with schizophrenia murdering someone.
> 
> Let's say we could scientifically prove that child A likes the color pink and child B likes to stab people simply because of genetics. They both feel a strong desire because of they are genetically predisposed to have these traits. Would you argue because I say "Hey Child A, if you like the color pink and that's what makes you happy then that makes me happy" that it would be hypocritical of me to say "Child B don't stab people because it's wrong to harm others. You're going to need to control yourself."?
> 
> Pedophilia and homosexuality are not relatable at all. But nice try.



I was talking about pedophilia not rape. They are not the same.


----------



## R-Star

MemphisX said:


> I was talking about pedophilia not rape. They are not the same.


Uhhh.... you do know having sex with an underage child is considered rape correct?



"That's not rape. That 8 year old said she wanted it."

As usual Memphis, your view on the world is disgusting.


----------



## 29380

He is not talking about having sex with kids but the desire to which some people have but do not act on it.


----------



## letsgoceltics

Mmmm, I'm not going to give Jason Collins too much credit. He made a great marketing move and this could consequently help promote tolerance, but I'm not convinced he did it because of that. Still, I'm sure coming out in public like this was difficult. So good for him for being true to himself. But a hero? No.


----------



## Headliner

Ben said:


> Hopefully in a few years time this won't be so uncommon.


Agreed. This shouldn't be news. The way people choose to live their lives have nothing to do with me. Which is why I question why homosexuals in the closet even bother coming out in the first place? Ok, you finally excepted who you are, why tell everyone? Why invite attention like that? Just live your life, be happy, and not care what people think.


----------



## Bogg

letsgoceltics said:


> But a hero? No.


Eh......I'm not so sure. If Collins stepping up and "testing the waters", so to speak, in terms of teammate/fan/front office acceptance and that eventually leads to other gay athletes coming out, he'll be a hero to some people. For better or worse, sports has an outsize effect on our social psyche, and a handful of gay athletes just doing their job and generally being indistinguishable from the other athletes on the court would go a long way towards making people, especially younger kids, more accepting of the idea. If he makes life easier for thousands of people, they'll probably look at him in a different light than most. 

I mean, is Magic Johnson a hero for advancing the public's knowledge of what it means to have HIV and putting a relatable face onto a health epidemic that was dominated by social stigma and rumors at the time? How you answer that probably depends on who you are.


----------



## RollWithEm

Adol said:


> Here's how I think of it:
> 
> If homosexuality is a choice--if they can choose to be aroused by the same sex, then heterosexuality must be a choice too and I'm simply choosing to be aroused by the opposite sex. By that logic, if a gay person wanted to be straight he could be and if a straight person wanted to be gay they could be. But not just in theory, in actual, physical arousal.
> 
> Now ask yourself if you could decide to be gay based on the example I've given. If the answer is no, then it must be true for the other side too.
> 
> Also it's always interesting to me how homosexuality is so much bigger of a deal when it's men as opposed to women.


This, like most arguments on this topic, is very "us and them" centric. The underlying assumption here is that a person is either gay or straight. It does not consider the possibility that human sexuality might exist on the same sort of spectrum as hair color or skin color: that sexuality might not be a black and white issue.


----------



## Ben

Headliner said:


> Agreed. This shouldn't be news. The way people choose to live their lives have nothing to do with me. Which is why I question why homosexuals in the closet even bother coming out in the first place? Ok, you finally excepted who you are, *why tell everyone?* Why invite attention like that? Just live your life, be happy, and not care what people think.


I think this one is just to try and open up to other homosexuals in the league and other high profile settings that there's no need for it to be a secret.

I do agree that it doesn't really matter though, and we don't have people coming out saying they're straight, so if being a homosexual is as natural as people say, just get on with it then.


----------



## letsgoceltics

Bogg said:


> Eh......I'm not so sure. If Collins stepping up and "testing the waters", so to speak, in terms of teammate/fan/front office acceptance and that eventually leads to other gay athletes coming out, he'll be a hero to some people. For better or worse, sports has an outsize effect on our social psyche, and a handful of gay athletes just doing their job and generally being indistinguishable from the other athletes on the court would go a long way towards making people, especially younger kids, more accepting of the idea. If he makes life easier for thousands of people, they'll probably look at him in a different light than most.
> 
> I mean, is Magic Johnson a hero for advancing the public's knowledge of what it means to have HIV and putting a relatable face onto a health epidemic that was dominated by social stigma and rumors at the time? How you answer that probably depends on who you are.


But why now? He could have had made the most impact if he had come out during his 2 NBA finals appearances. Of course, he had more to lose at that point. Look, I admire his courage and I truly do hope this opens more doors for homosexual athletes. When I think of the word "hero," I think of guys that really put their necks out for the betterment of others. I just don't think Collins lost anything by coming out at this point. 

Also, with all this talk of first active athlete of a major sport to come out, didn't Sheryl Swoops come out while she was playing for a team? I understand WNBA isn't popular, but basketball is a major sport.


----------



## Kidd

Man just imagine if Derrick Rose came out tomorrow.


----------



## Basel

letsgoceltics said:


> Also, with all this talk of first active athlete of a major sport to come out, didn't Sheryl Swoops come out while she was playing for a team? I understand WNBA isn't popular, but basketball is a major sport.


What they consider to be the "major sports" are NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL. Plus, it's different with men and women in the world of sports. Britney Griner came out earlier this month and I don't remember it being discussed much at all by anybody.


----------



## Bogg

letsgoceltics said:


> But why now?


If you read the article, he's only recently come to terms with it himself. I think his family found out in something like the last year. He waited until after the season because he didn't want to be a big distraction in the locker room for the team he was playing on. Unless you think his entire story is a lie, it's not something that he's been planning for ten years now.



letsgoceltics said:


> He could have had made the most impact if he had come out during his 2 NBA finals appearances. Of course, he had more to lose at that point. Look, I admire his courage and I truly do hope this opens more doors for homosexual athletes. When I think of the word "hero," I think of guys that really put their necks out for the betterment of others. I just don't think Collins lost anything by coming out at this point.


Again, there's a distinction between someone being a personal hero to you and not being a hero to anyone. Myself, I don't look at him and think that he's one of my heroes, but I also completely understand how someone in different circumstances could be profoundly impacted by something like this. If you do something really brave (and let's be honest, being the first guy to do this is really brave, no matter who wants to argue otherwise) that makes the life of someone else better, I'm not going to tell them how to feel about that person. 



letsgoceltics said:


> Also, with all this talk of first active athlete of a major sport to come out, didn't Sheryl Swoops come out while she was playing for a team? I understand WNBA isn't popular, but *basketball is a major sport*.


Speculate any reasons you'd like, but _women's_ basketball isn't.


----------



## e-monk

holy crap someone in the wnba is gay? shut the hell up! I would never have imagined that. Next thing you're going to tell me that there are lesbians playing women's softball. Is there nothing sacred left in this world!?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

It's getting to the point where being against homosexuality even for "personal reasons" is considered bigotry, and to me that's great. People are allowed their opinions, but they aren't allowed to have their opinion be immune to criticism. If you speak out against homosexuality, fine, but expect resistance and for people to demonstrate that you have no argument. 

I like to compare it to being left-handed (less emotionally charged than the black/women parallels). If you disagree with the "left-handed lifestyle" and consider it a choice, then you're allowed that opinion. Expect to be ridiculed for it though, because it makes no sense and is demonstrably wrong. 

People will try to distract the issue by equating it to being a pedafile and other nonsense, but we're talking about consenting adults. Homosexual behavior appears in countless species and humans are no different. 

I agree that this _should_ be a non-issue. Hopefully in a few years, this type of news will yield no reaction and people won't care because it's so matter-of-fact. Canada legalized gay marriage in 2001 or so? No surprise R-Star is surprised at how America reacts to this stuff. We have a large group of people in this country more interested in a theocracy than actual progress and dignified treatment of people.


----------



## R-Star

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's getting to the point where being against homosexuality even for "personal reasons" is considered bigotry, and to me that's great. People are allowed their opinions, but they aren't allowed to have their opinion be immune to criticism. If you speak out against homosexuality, fine, but expect resistance and for people to demonstrate that you have no argument.
> 
> I like to compare it to being left-handed (less emotionally charged than the black/women parallels). If you disagree with the "left-handed lifestyle" and consider it a choice, then you're allowed that opinion. Expect to be ridiculed for it though, because it makes no sense and is demonstrably wrong.
> 
> People will try to distract the issue by equating it to being a pedafile and other nonsense, but we're talking about consenting adults. Homosexual behavior appears in countless species and humans are no different.
> 
> I agree that this _should_ be a non-issue. Hopefully in a few years, this type of news will yield no reaction and people won't care because it's so matter-of-fact. Canada legalized gay marriage in 2001 or so? No surprise R-Star is surprised at how America reacts to this stuff. We have a large group of people in this country more interested in a theocracy than actual progress and dignified treatment of people.


Can't say I agree. You're basically saying anyone who follows their religion is a bigot. Disagreeing with homosexuality is someone's right. Being vigorously opposed to it is something else altogether.


----------



## e-monk

some religious beliefs are tantamount to bigotry (or bigotry wrapped in sacred vestments) and of course people have the right to be bigoted in their thinking they should just hold the courage of their convictions when they get called for it


----------



## l0st1

Basel said:


> More power to you guys who are more accepting of it than I am. That's great. But just like gay people have been that way their whole life, this is also how I've been my whole life. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject.


I'm curious, Do you have issues with heterosexual people displaying it in public? I really don't see the difference.

I've always wondered why people that don't agree... don't agree. I mean if it's not religious then ?

Not judging , actually curious


----------



## Adol

RollWithEm said:


> This, like most arguments on this topic, is very "us and them" centric. The underlying assumption here is that a person is either gay or straight. It does not consider the possibility that human sexuality might exist on the same sort of spectrum as hair color or skin color: that sexuality might not be a black and white issue.


That's a good point, and I agree with it. I was simplifying the argument for some of the more anti-homosexual posters.

I also agree with Patchwork that everyone is entitled to an opinion but once your opinion is public it's open to criticism. I think you need a really compelling reason to be against something like someone's sexuality--saying "I'm just against it" doesn't work. Why do you like pizza? It's cheesy, the sauce is zesty, I like putting bacon on it...Why do you dislike homosexuality? Just cause. It doesn't work. Religious arguments are different and I'm not going to touch that right now.


----------



## e-monk

l0st1 said:


> I'm curious, Do you have issues with heterosexual people displaying it in public? I really don't see the difference.
> 
> I've always wondered why people that don't agree... don't agree. I mean if it's not religious then ?
> 
> Not judging , actually curious


I'm not cool with conspicuous PDAs of any stripe actually - I mean a kiss here or there or holding hands or whatever isnt the end of the world and I'm not going to shout 'get a room!' but I may think it (unless of course it's two hot lesbians).


----------



## Basel

l0st1 said:


> I'm curious, Do you have issues with heterosexual people displaying it in public? I really don't see the difference.
> 
> I've always wondered why people that don't agree... don't agree. I mean if it's not religious then ?
> 
> Not judging , actually curious


I don't want to see two heterosexual people making out in public, either. I don't care about holding hands or little pecks here and there, though.


----------



## l0st1

MemphisX said:


> So you would accept someone being a pedophile?


Yes because two consenting adults of the same sex being together is the same thing as a grown adult being attracted/taking advantage of very young children.


----------



## l0st1

I didn't mean making out I meant contact basically. Holding hands, an occasional kiss, hug, etc. Not excessive because that I can understand.


----------



## Basel

l0st1 said:


> I didn't mean making out I meant contact basically. Holding hands, an occasional kiss, hug, etc. Not excessive because that I can understand.


Yeah, it doesn't bug me. With homosexuals, it does. 

I was at Universal Studios once with a group of friends, and there was a gay couple ahead of us in line that was holding hands, kissing every so often and you can just tell everyone felt uncomfortable with it (even those who are pro-gay). It's not something that I think most people want to see, whether you are for it or not. 

But again, for those of you who don't mind, great. But I do. I don't want to see it. And in the future, I don't want my kids to see it.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Are people that are against homosexuality also against interracial dating?


----------



## l0st1

Basel said:


> Yeah, it doesn't bug me. With homosexuals, it does.
> 
> I was at Universal Studios once with a group of friends, and there was a gay couple ahead of us in line that was holding hands, kissing every so often and you can just tell everyone felt uncomfortable with it (even those who are pro-gay). It's not something that I think most people want to see, whether you are for it or not.
> 
> But again, for those of you who don't mind, great. But I do. I don't want to see it. And in the future, I don't want my kids to see it.


Why does it make you more uncomfortable than a heterosexual couple if it isn't due to religious implications?

Again, I want to stress I'm just curious. You have your beliefs like everyone else. I have no problem with people that feel this way if they go about it the right way. Which seems you and Memphis do.


----------



## l0st1

Jamel Irief said:


> Are people that are against homosexuality also against interracial dating?


Interesting question.


----------



## Basel

I just don't like seeing it. Homosexuality isn't normal to me. I'm Arab and there aren't many people in my culture who are homosexual. The culture itself, outside of religion, isn't accepting of it. I wasn't raised seeing that and my parents put it in my head when I was younger that it's wrong. That stuck with me growing up. I would see gay people and honestly be grossed out by it (no offense to anyone here, but as a teen in high school in the early 2000's, it wasn't often you saw that). 

Sorry if you guys don't agree with me or think less of me for it, but it's my opinion. It's not going to change. 

As for the interracial dating, I don't care, but personally, I only want to be with someone from my culture (which I am).


----------



## Sir Patchwork

R-Star said:


> Can't say I agree. You're basically saying anyone who follows their religion is a bigot. Disagreeing with homosexuality is someone's right. Being vigorously opposed to it is something else altogether.


Religion gets too much of a pass. If your religion teaches that black people are not human and women are secondary, we should candy coat these views under the guise of religous freedom? It's one thing to follow your religion, it's another to deny evident reality. There are people who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and deny evolution because of their religion. These are demonstrably absurd views. You're allowed to _believe_ anything. There is no view that isn't tolerated, because it's not harming anyone even if it is an ignorant view that can't be argued rationally. The problem is that these views never stop at quiet rejection. They always find their way into legislation and other avenues that impact people who strongly disagree and can actually defend their position rationally.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Jamel Irief said:


> Are people that are against homosexuality also against interracial dating?


Also a good comparison.


----------



## e-monk

Sir Patchwork said:


> Religion gets too much of a pass. If your religion teaches that black people are not human and women are secondary, we should candy coat these views under the guise of religous freedom? It's one thing to follow your religion, it's another to deny evident reality. There are people who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and deny evolution because of their religion. These are demonstrably absurd views. You're allowed to _believe_ anything. There is no view that isn't tolerated, because it's not harming anyone even if it is an ignorant view that can't be argued rationally. The problem is that these views never stop at quiet rejection. They always find their way into legislation and other avenues that impact people who strongly disagree and can actually defend their position rationally.


yes, you could argue that religion is a leading cause of prejudice and bigotry almost as a matter of definiton because most religion establishes strictures based on authority and dogma while frowning on the kind of questioning and open mindedness that is required to defeat prejudice and bigotry

once you buy into the premise that god exists (and all that entails: all knowing, all powerful etc), then if god says x, y and z who is going to argue with him? historically almost all the best horrors have been committed in the name of religion. It's proven a great rationalizing force for some really heinous atrocities. Jesus would roll over in his grave if he knew.


----------



## Maravilla

It frustrates me to no end how angry Christians can get towards others who sin differently from themselves. Broussard does not represent a whole group of people, so it is best not to lump the rest of us Christians in with his opinions.

As for Collins, good for him but it is w/e to me. I am sad that this is news people should be accepting of all people.

I am also disappointed by the amount of venom going back and forth between people with different views.. but I am not shocked, as it is the internet.


----------



## Maravilla

e-monk said:


> ... * It's proven a great rationalizing force for some really heinous atrocities. Jesus would roll over in his grave if he knew*.


Child please.


----------



## e-monk

so you're not familiar with the study of history? at all?


----------



## Maravilla

e-monk said:


> so you're not familiar with the study of history? at all?


As far as heinous atrocities in the name of religion? Absolutely.

The picture was more an attempt at comedy as far as Jesus rolling over in his grave. Like what grave, bro?


----------



## e-monk

that was the joke in the first place - joke ruiner


----------



## Maravilla

e-monk said:


> that was the joke in the first place - joke ruiner



rage. I figured as much. Next time, I'll meet you on the same page.


----------



## Gonzo

Looks like Broussard deleted his tweet, thank god for a delete button right?

ESPN's job is to report the news, Broussard is a reporter, not a talking head that should ever voice his opinion. Keep it private, and don't come out a day later and say you're proud of his bravery, say that instead of being an asshole in the first place.


----------



## doctordrizzay

Basel said:


> I just don't like seeing it. Homosexuality isn't normal to me. I'm Arab and there aren't many people in my culture who are homosexual. The culture itself, outside of religion, isn't accepting of it. I wasn't raised seeing that and my parents put it in my head when I was younger that it's wrong. That stuck with me growing up. I would see gay people and honestly be grossed out by it (no offense to anyone here, but as a teen in high school in the early 2000's, it wasn't often you saw that).
> 
> Sorry if you guys don't agree with me or think less of me for it, but it's my opinion. It's not going to change.
> 
> As for the interracial dating, I don't care, but personally, I only want to be with someone from my culture (which I am).


Alot of Arabs grow up raised to kill Christians. Just wondering if you think that's okay too because it's how they were raised.


----------



## Gonzo

And as far as people not being comfortable around gay people (people who are different in general), grow up. I find it funny that an Arab isn't comfortable watching two men hold hands, when he probably still gets thought of as a "terrorist" when he goes places. "It's the unibrow bomber!" I'm sure he would take offense to that just as much as a gay couple in public would be offended with the uneasiness.

God damn, people who judge others ****ing piss me off. Live your own life, don't try to save mine or tell me what I should or should not do. The Government does enough of that already.

And if you're uncomfortable being around gay people, ignore it or move away.


----------



## Porn Player

doctordrizzay said:


> Alot of Arabs grow up raised to kill Christians. Just wondering if you think that's okay too because it's how they were raised.


Alot of them do? 

How many 'Christians' grow up to kill 'Christians'? 

I'd hazard a guess the second ratio is much higher.


----------



## Basel

doctordrizzay said:


> Alot of Arabs grow up raised to kill Christians. Just wondering if you think that's okay too because it's how they were raised.


Well seeing as I'm Catholic, this doesn't really apply to me. And that's an entirely different thing. Killing is completely different than being comfortable with something. 

And yes, I've been made fun of before (especially after 9/11) but I don't get offended. So that's that.


----------



## Knick Killer

Gonzo said:


> And as far as people not being comfortable around gay people (people who are different in general), grow up. I find it funny that an Arab isn't comfortable watching two men hold hands, when he probably still gets thought of as a "terrorist" when he goes places. "It's the unibrow bomber!" I'm sure he would take offense to that just as much as a gay couple in public would be offended with the uneasiness.
> 
> God damn, people who judge others ****ing piss me off. Live your own life, don't try to save mine or tell me what I should or should not do. The Government does enough of that already.
> 
> And if you're uncomfortable being around gay people, ignore it or move away.


:vuvuzela:


----------



## Krstic All-Star

Anyway, nothing against Collins, but I just don't see this as all that different from when Amaechi came out - a veteran on his last legs rather than one who had already retired but was still young enough to play again.


----------



## Krstic All-Star

Basel said:


> Well seeing as I'm Catholic, this doesn't really apply to me. And that's an entirely different thing. Killing is completely different than being comfortable with something.
> 
> And yes, I've been made fun of before (especially after 9/11) but I don't get offended. So that's that.


Wait, people blame Catholics for 9/11? Just couldn't resist  

It's interesting to see how side can get flip-flopped in arguments like this one though. Generally, one would suppose gay-rights proponents to be progressive and multiculturalist...


----------



## Basel

:laugh:


----------



## jayk009

wait wtf? I always thought Basel was gay


----------



## Bogg

Krstic All-Star said:


> Anyway, nothing against Collins, but I just don't see this as all that different from when Amaechi came out - a veteran on his last legs rather than one who had already retired but was still young enough to play again.


I think Amaechi had been out of the league for like five years when he announced. Collins has at least two more minimum contracts coming his way.


----------



## hroz

MemphisX said:


> I was talking about pedophilia not rape. They are not the same.


You can only give consent as an adult. I thought that was common knowledge. Apparently not as common as I thought. 



Knicks4life said:


> He is not talking about having sex with kids but the desire to which some people have but do not act on it.


Pedophille is having sex with kids. If you have thought about having sex with kids then you ar enot a pedophile but you should probably see a psycologist. 



This should really not be news. 

Collins is gay big deal. 

Also not sure he will get another contract people comparing him to Juwan should remember Juwan was once an almost all star in the league and a regular starter through his 20s. 

The teams trying to rebuild will look for good young players. 
Teams looking for a veteran presence will look to those who had a bigger impact during their career.


----------



## Krstic All-Star

Bogg said:


> I think Amaechi had been out of the league for like five years when he announced. Collins has at least two more minimum contracts coming his way.


Yeah, Amaechi had been out of the league 3.5 years when his book came out and was 36 years old at the time - a bit older than Collins. I just don't see the possibility of losing a few 10 day contracts and late season pickups as that much of a loss.


----------



## MemphisX

l0st1 said:


> Yes because two consenting adults of the same sex being together is the same thing as a grown adult being attracted/taking advantage of very young children.


You do realize age of consent laws are new and arbitrary correct? So I am guessing if the age of consent laws were reduced, you would be fine with sex between a 25 year old man and a 13 year old boy correct? I mean if it is legal and they love each other and theysay they have been that way since birth...what would be the problem?


----------



## Basel

jayk009 said:


> wait wtf? I always thought Basel was gay


You're an idiot.


----------



## Dornado

MemphisX said:


> You do realize age of consent laws are new and arbitrary correct? So I am guessing if the age of consent laws were reduced, you would be fine with sex between a 25 year old man and a 13 year old boy correct? I mean if it is legal and they love each other and theysay they have been that way since birth...what would be the problem?


... you're having a totally different argument at this point. Age of consent laws apply to heterosexual relationships as well... we decide as a society what age we think people need to attain before they can legally give consent. If he is alright with the age of consent laws as they are and as they apply to heterosexual intercourse, why would that change all of the sudden because he isn't anti-homosexuality?


----------



## hobojoe

hroz said:


> You can only give consent as an adult. I thought that was common knowledge. Apparently not as common as I thought.
> 
> 
> 
> Pedophille is having sex with kids. If you have thought about having sex with kids then you ar enot a pedophile but you should probably see a psycologist.


You are wrong. 



> Pedophilia can sometimes be a taboo topic. But it's often in the headlines. What is pedophilia? Who are pedophiles? How is it treated by the medical community?
> 
> Here are answers from sexologist Ray Blanchard, PhD, adjunct psychiatry professor at the University of Toronto.
> 
> What is a pedophile?
> 
> A pedophile is a person who has a sustained sexual orientation toward children, generally aged 13 or younger, Blanchard says.
> 
> Not all pedophiles are child molesters (or vice versa). "Child molesters are defined by their acts; pedophiles are defined by their desires," Blanchard says. "Some pedophiles refrain from sexually approaching any child for their entire lives." But it's not clear how common that is.


LINK


----------



## R-Star

hobojoe said:


> You are wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> LINK


Oh, an article by a renowned sexologist?


Yea sorry, **** that garbage. Comparing homosexuality to pedophilia is absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## R-Star

Dornado said:


> ..*. you're having a totally different argument at this point.* Age of consent laws apply to heterosexual relationships as well... we decide as a society what age we think people need to attain before they can legally give consent. If he is alright with the age of consent laws as they are and as they apply to heterosexual intercourse, why would that change all of the sudden because he isn't anti-homosexuality?


He does that every single time. Then he runs away. Expect more of the same here.


----------



## Tragedy

Basel said:


> I don't know that. Has it ever been proven that homosexual people are born that way? Not that I'm aware of.
> 
> We're just going to go in circles here. Nobody's mind is going to change.


What your saying gay people choose to be gay. 

With that said, you're saying that right now, if you so choose, you could be gay. Just like that. And that it's a conscious choise they could easily decide to choose to be straight. 

That's what you're saying?

Now think. You don't want to choose to be gay, because you have an attraction to women- did you choose at some point to be attracted to women over men, and that you could've easily chose the alternative?

I think there ARE people who do choose to be gay. I just consider them sociopaths.


----------



## Tragedy

Basel said:


> I just don't like seeing it. Homosexuality isn't normal to me. I'm Arab and there aren't many people in my culture who are homosexual. The culture itself, outside of religion, isn't accepting of it. I wasn't raised seeing that and my parents put it in my head when I was younger that it's wrong. That stuck with me growing up. I would see gay people and honestly be grossed out by it (no offense to anyone here, but as a teen in high school in the early 2000's, it wasn't often you saw that).
> 
> Sorry if you guys don't agree with me or think less of me for it, but it's my opinion. It's not going to change.
> 
> As for the interracial dating, I don't care, but personally, I only want to be with someone from my culture (which I am).


No, there aren't many people in your culture who are OPENLY gay. 

There's a difference.


----------



## R-Star

I couldn't force myself to like dick. There's nothing I could do to make it appealing to me. So I agree with what Trage is saying there.


----------



## Tragedy

R-Star said:


> I couldn't force myself to like dick. There's nothing I could do to make it appealing to me. So I agree with what Trage is saying there.


And that's it. 

The way we can look at a very attractive feeling and just have this urge deep down...this wanting to be with her- it's like that for gays too.


----------



## e-monk

R-Star said:


> I couldn't force myself to like dick. There's nothing I could do to make it appealing to me. So I agree with what Trage is saying there.


exactly, did you make a choice to be hetero? of course not, you just are that way. if you look at a picture of a hot chick and you get wood you're probably straight, if you look at a picture of brad pitt and feel lust in your loins you're probably gay - those feelings are not a matter of choice they are just there

and btw:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6519
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene
http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/Pregnancy/3641
http://www.skeptictank.org/gaygene.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/01/homosexuality-genetics-usa
http://bigthink.com/think-tank/the-gay-gene-new-evidence-supports-an-old-hypothesis


----------



## e-monk

Tragedy said:


> No, there aren't many people in your culture who are OPENLY gay.
> 
> There's a difference.


http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2007/04/gay-life-in-saudi-arabia.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/16/saudi-arabia-bans-gays-tom-boys-schools_n_1428907.html
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7479150&page=1
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/305774/

etc


----------



## Dre

He was smart doing this now where it has a whole summer to marinate and teams know what it is.

It would be somewhat selfish to do this midseason *NOT* because of his sexual preference but because of the media circus it would engender. This guy is on mainstream television, the president is talking about him in speeches....if he did this midseason for the first week or maybe longer this guy would have a shit ton of media that wouldn't normally be at your games making it hot....Would you need all that from a fringe player who probably wouldn't even play?

But come next November this won't be as hot so teams will have no hesitance. I'm sure his agent advised him of this

And again my post is not about them being hesitant to sign a homosexual player, but being hesitant to go through the media wringer all for a 1/1/0/6 statline, if that.


----------



## R-Star

Dre said:


> He was smart doing this now where it has a whole summer to marinate and teams know what it is.
> 
> It would be somewhat selfish to do this midseason *NOT* because of his sexual preference but because of the media circus it would engender. This guy is on mainstream television, the president is talking about him in speeches....if he did this midseason for the first week or maybe longer this guy would have a shit ton of media that wouldn't normally be at your games making it hot....Would you need all that from a fringe player who probably wouldn't even play?
> 
> But come next November this won't be as hot so teams will have no hesitance. I'm sure his agent advised him of this
> 
> And again my post is not about them being hesitant to sign a homosexual player, but being hesitant to go through the media wringer all for a 1/1/0/6 statline, if that.


I view it another way. I think he did this to get a contract next season.

You don't see a guy like Cuban jumping all over this?


----------



## MemphisX

R-Star said:


> I view it another way.* I think he did this to get a contract next season.*
> 
> You don't see a guy like Cuban jumping all over this?



Bingo! 

And if that doesn't work out he can use it to kick off his next career.


----------



## Jamel Irief

jayk009 said:


> wait wtf? I always thought Basel was gay


I can see why you would say that. Why else would he want to watch Cirque de Solei? 



Krstic All-Star said:


> Yeah, Amaechi had been out of the league 3.5 years when his book came out and was 36 years old at the time - a bit older than Collins. I just don't see the possibility of losing a few 10 day contracts and late season pickups as that much of a loss.


It's kind of odd timing for Collins. He's a 34 year old free agent that hasn't been worthy of a rotation spot in 5 years at least. So now if he doesn't get a contract it's because he's gay, not because there are 50 or so big men in the NBDL, NCAA and overseas more talented than he is.

BTW, something nobodies asked- Is Jarron gay? I know a set of twins that are both gay. I can say I never met a set of twins where one was gay and one straight.


----------



## Wade County

Basel - is it only male-to-male homosexuals that bother you? Or do you have the same feelings about lesbians?


----------



## Basel

Jason already said Jarron is not. I believe he said he's married and with kids.


----------



## Kidd

@Basel: Saying that you were raised by your parents to think this way, so that's the way you are and that's the way you feel, so "that's that" just feels like a cop out to me. I'd like to know your* own* real reasons for being against homosexuality, have you ever stopped to question what your parents taught you? You're coming across ignorant and extremely narrow-minded right now...


----------



## Basel

Wade County said:


> Basel - is it only male-to-male homosexuals that bother you? Or do you have the same feelings about lesbians?


Lesbians, too. However, as a guy, I am bothered more by male homosexuals.


----------



## Basel

I've never had to question it. I formed my own opinion on it when I got older and decided I still didn't like the idea of homosexuality. My reason is I think it's disgusting. I know it's not affecting me directly. It doesn't mean I have to approve of it. That's my choice. Feel free to accept it all you want. 

As for the "that's that" attitude, that was in reference to me saying I don't get offended if people fun of the fact I'm Arab, thus showing Gonzo he was wrong.


----------



## Kidd

Basel said:


> I've never had to question it. I formed my own opinion on it when I got older and *decided I still didn't like the idea of homosexuality. My reason is I think it's disgusting.* I know it's not affecting me directly. It doesn't mean I have to approve of it. That's my choice. Feel free to accept it all you want.
> 
> As for the "that's that" attitude, that was in reference to me saying I don't get offended if people fun of the fact I'm Arab, thus showing Gonzo he was wrong.


You don't like the idea of homosexuality because it's "disgusting"? I hate to break it to you, but this is straight ignorance.


----------



## hobojoe

R-Star said:


> Oh, an article by a renowned sexologist?
> 
> 
> Yea sorry, **** that garbage. Comparing homosexuality to pedophilia is absolutely ridiculous.


First one I found, there are hundreds of others. That's just a fact, being a pedophile does not mean you have to act on it. There's a distinction there. But obviously it's completely different than homosexuality and the comparison was made by Memphis just to get the exact reaction he's getting. His point had nothing to do with homosexual or pedophilic _acts_, but that you could argue both are feelings or tendencies you're born with. The difference, and the reason everyone freaks with the comparison is that acting on your homosexuality is accepted by most people (obviously not all), but acting on your pedophilia is accepted by pretty much nobody. 

It's not as ridiculous as everyone is making it out to be because you naturally think of the acts, not the innate feelings or tendencies.


----------



## R-Star

hobojoe said:


> First one I found, there are hundreds of others. That's just a fact, being a pedophile does not mean you have to act on it. There's a distinction there. But obviously it's completely different than homosexuality and the comparison was made by Memphis just to get the exact reaction he's getting. His point had nothing to do with homosexual or pedophilic _acts_, but that you could argue both are feelings or tendencies you're born with. The difference, and the reason everyone freaks with the comparison is that acting on your homosexuality is accepted by most people (obviously not all), but acting on your pedophilia is accepted by pretty much nobody.
> 
> It's not as ridiculous as everyone is making it out to be because you naturally think of the acts, not the innate feelings or tendencies.


Some people are born with mental tendencies that would make them a murderer. So I guess anyone saying you're born gay so we shouldn't judge them for it also should be ok with psychotic murderers right?

Either that, or a dumb generalization is just that, a dumb ****ing generalization.


----------



## Basel

Kidd said:


> You don't like the idea of homosexuality because it's "disgusting"? I hate to break it to you, but this is straight ignorance.


That's fine. I don't want to see it. I don't want my kids to be taught that it's okay. Simple as that. If I'm ignorant because I don't like it, so be it.


----------



## Basel

I don't know why you guys care so much that I don't like the idea of it. I'm not discriminating against gay people. I treat them as I do everyone else. I just don't agree with what they do. To each his own.


----------



## Dornado

What's your position on sex with fat and/or ugly people?


----------



## Basel

If you're into that, good for you. Not my thing, though.


----------



## hobojoe

R-Star said:


> Some people are born with mental tendencies that would make them a murderer. So I guess anyone saying you're born gay so we shouldn't judge them for it also should be ok with psychotic murderers right?
> 
> Either that, or a dumb generalization is just that, a dumb ****ing generalization.


That's difficult for me to answer because I am accepting of homosexuality, but I don't take offense to MemphisX's comments. I mean, what do you think should be done about someone born with sociopathic tendencies but has never done anything violent or illegal? They have that within them, but don't act on it. How would you judge them? To me, this is more comparable to the pedophile than the homosexual, because again I don't feel like homosexual acts are wrong but raping children and killing people is wrong. 

I've also said this on this site before, but I'll say it again as I think it's relevant. To me, there's so much evidence on both sides that the only thing I can reasonably conclude is that it happens both ways -- some people are born gay, some people 'become' gay. I think it happens both ways and not all homosexuals are created the same if you will. I'm not saying some people just wake up one day and make a conscious decision to be gay, but over time become gay for any number of reasons.


----------



## MemphisX

Kidd said:


> You don't like the idea of homosexuality because it's "disgusting"? I hate to break it to you, but this is straight ignorance.


No it isn't.


----------



## R-Star

hobojoe said:


> That's difficult for me to answer because I am accepting of homosexuality, but I don't take offense to MemphisX's comments. I mean, what do you think should be done about someone born with sociopathic tendencies but has never done anything violent or illegal? They have that within them, but don't act on it. How would you judge them? To me, this is more comparable to the pedophile than the homosexual, because again I don't feel like homosexual acts are wrong but raping children and killing people is wrong.
> 
> I've also said this on this site before, but I'll say it again as I think it's relevant. To me, there's so much evidence on both sides that the only thing I can reasonably conclude is that it happens both ways -- some people are born gay, some people 'become' gay. I think it happens both ways and not all homosexuals are created the same if you will. I'm not saying some people just wake up one day and make a conscious decision to be gay, but over time become gay for any number of reasons.


I dont disagree with the second part. Some choose. My point is, comparing it to pedophilia is asinie,


----------



## hobojoe

letsgoceltics said:


> But why now? *He could have had made the most impact if he had come out during his 2 NBA finals appearances.* Of course, he had more to lose at that point. Look, I admire his courage and I truly do hope this opens more doors for homosexual athletes. When I think of the word "hero," I think of guys that really put their necks out for the betterment of others. I just don't think Collins lost anything by coming out at this point.


Probably because he was dating women and actually was engaged to a former WNBA player until he broke it off in 2009. He's really a victim of thinking he had to live a certain way his entire life, and didn't come to grips with who he is until recently.


----------



## GTA Addict

Basel said:


> I'm Arab and there aren't many people in my culture who are homosexual.


Wow, did you really just say this?

Anyway, not agreeing with or not liking something is one thing, saying it's not okay is another (and especially to a child?). Since you said it isn't due to religious beliefs, why is homosexuality not "okay" with you? I can understand being uncomfortable with it or even disgusted by it because you personally aren't into that sort of thing, but to say it's something that isn't okay for others, I don't get that. Anal sex, whether heterosexual or homosexual, disgusts me personally, but I don't judge others who engage in it. Peas make me want to vomit, but more power to those who eat them. I don't enjoy country music, but I don't give a **** what others listen to. How is homosexuality any different? Why is it inherently wrong? It isn't harming anyone as far as I can tell, so I'm okay with gay people and would have no issues telling my kids that being gay is absolutely okay if that's who they are. (The comparisons to murderers and pedophiles are ****ing ridiculous btw).

I can't imagine the shame and guilt a kid who realizes they're gay would feel after being told by the people closest to them that homosexuality is not okay. It's a huge reason LGBT youth struggle so much with who they are, why they feel they need to hide it, why some go to extraordinary lengths to try to change their sexuality, why their suicide rates are higher, etc.


----------



## Basel

I did really say that. It's not something I'm accustomed to seeing (99% of the people I hang out with are Arab) so when I do see it, it's probably more uncomfortable for me than the average American, I guess. 

Anyway, I'm done with the subject. Those of you who don't mind it and are okay with your kids being gay, good for you. I'm different. We'll just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## R-Star

I don't view you any different for what you've said. It's not like you're foaming at the mouth angry about it, you just don't agree with it.

Anyone who is that bothered by that is completely hypocritical to what they're trying to defend.


----------



## letsgoceltics

Kidd said:


> @Basel: Saying that you were raised by your parents to think this way, so that's the way you are and that's the way you feel, so "that's that" just feels like a cop out to me. I'd like to know your* own* real reasons for being against homosexuality, have you ever stopped to question what your parents taught you? You're coming across ignorant and extremely narrow-minded right now...


Being raised a certain way has a considerable impact on your perceptions. That's not a cop out. That's a valid reason. There are people that would see this and make big declarations of equality and justice. They're doing it because it's easier to be politically correct than to say something that you genuinely feel and catch heat for it. I grew up in an environment where things like excessive kissing was to be behind closed doors. When I see a heterosexual couple in front of me going at it, it feels awkward. If I feel the same way when I see a homosexual couple going at it, is it more wrong that I feel awkward? Basel isn't protesting their right to do that in public, he just doesn't _feel_ comfortable. Why is this wrong?


----------



## jayk009

Jason Collins can be gay all he wants but the moment he started being black he crossed the line.

I'm not okay with people being black, I feel like it's a choice....


----------



## Geaux Tigers

Feeling awkward around anyone showing public affection gay or not is not the same thing as not granting equal rights to a human being. Its funny to see people come into the thread to point their finger at men who dont want to watch men make out. I doubt thats much of the fight for gay people anyway, its probably more important for them to be able to sit by loved ones in the hospital, than if you want to watch them make out or not.


----------



## Dre

I don't see how this increases his chance of getting a job


----------



## Kidd

I re-read the way I came at him and what Basel said and realized I was being slightly hypocritical. If a gay couple were making out in public, it'd make me more uncomfortable than if a regular couple were doing the same thing.

Calling it disgusting without properly questioning why you think that way, though? That still seems narrow-minded to me.


----------



## tha supes

I'm sorry, but how does this get 15 pages, while the Sacramento/Seattle committee announcement gets 7 new replies in it's thread? Seriously, this is what NBA fans care about these days? Ridiculous.


----------



## R-Star

Dre said:


> I don't see how this increases his chance of getting a job


You're kidding right?


----------



## R-Star

tha supes said:


> I'm sorry, but how does this get 15 pages, while the Sacramento/Seattle committee announcement gets 7 new replies in it's thread? Seriously, this is what NBA fans care about these days? Ridiculous.


I don't disagree.


----------



## Jamel Irief

tha supes said:


> I'm sorry, but how does this get 15 pages, while the Sacramento/Seattle committee announcement gets 7 new replies in it's thread? Seriously, this is what NBA fans care about these days? Ridiculous.


First this is on page 5. 

Second you can blame MemphisX and Basel. If it weren't for them it doesn't top 3 pages. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## RollWithEm

tha supes said:


> I'm sorry, but how does this get 15 pages, while the Sacramento/Seattle committee announcement gets 7 new replies in it's thread? Seriously, this is what NBA fans care about these days? Ridiculous.


We don't have as much available information about Sacramento/Seattle. I haven't really heard reasoning from any committee members, yet, about why they voted how they did. Talking about it at this point would be mostly speculative.


----------



## R-Star

Jamel Irief said:


> First this is on page 5.
> 
> Second you can blame MemphisX and Basel. If it weren't for them it doesn't top 3 pages.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


15, bro. Having less posts per page makes it easier for the archivist to archive posts.

That's something a guy like you would never understand.


----------



## e-monk

btw I never saw the sacremento/seattle thread bolded so didnt even notice it was there or at least active


----------



## Jamel Irief

R-Star said:


> 15, bro. Having less posts per page makes it easier for the archivist to archive posts.
> 
> That's something a guy like you would never understand.


I'll let you pass since you provide a valuable service. Hey archivist, will you make Dre leave the site if the the Spurs make the finals?


----------



## R-Star

Jamel Irief said:


> I'll let you pass since you provide a valuable service. Hey archivist, will you make Dre leave the site if the the Spurs make the finals?


If he has it coming, then I'll make him leave.

It is my archival duty to uphold the rules.


R-Star has never once made a threat on here to run someone off, or leave himself for good and never come back - ever, that he hasn't enforced to the T.


----------



## Krstic All-Star

The Sacramento/Seattle nonsense has been going back and forth for so long I'm sick of it and not bothering to comment on it. Meanwhile, Jason Collins came out, definitively and explosively. That's more of a story - and that's coming from someone who was much more impressed when Amaechi came out (great book, by the way).


----------



## R-Star

Why is it impressive? Not sure I get that part.

"Good for you buddy! You're gay and you told everyone! YEA!"

Don't see it. I could care less that he's gay, not sure why anyone else cares either. If its not affecting anyone he plays with (and it hasn't), then I don't see the story.


----------



## Krstic All-Star

The way Amaechi did it impressed me, not necessarily the fact that he came out per se.


----------



## Dornado

R-Star said:


> Why is it impressive? Not sure I get that part.
> 
> "Good for you buddy! You're gay and you told everyone! YEA!"
> 
> Don't see it. I could care less that he's gay, not sure why anyone else cares either. If its not affecting anyone he plays with (and it hasn't), then I don't see the story.


There are a lot of people that don't like gay people. For him to come out while he's an active player is impressive... how impressive I guess is open for debate, but there's a reason nobody has done it yet in any major American team sport. Homosexuals inexplicably still deal with discriminatory bullshit. Kind of odd to take the view that because it doesn't bother you it is a non-story. It would be more impressive if he were an integral part of an existing team or a star player, but it is still something.


----------



## R-Star

Krstic All-Star said:


> The way Amaechi did it impressed me, not necessarily the fact that he came out per se.


Fair enough. I never read the book, but always liked Amechi. Wasn't he a rugby player turned basketball player late in life or something?


----------



## R-Star

Dornado said:


> There are a lot of people that don't like gay people. For him to come out while he's an active player is impressive... how impressive I guess is open for debate, but there's a reason nobody has done it yet in any major American team sport. Homosexuals inexplicably still deal with discriminatory bullshit. Kind of odd to take the view that because it doesn't bother you it is a non-story. *It would be more impressive if he were an integral part of an existing team or a star player, but it is still something.*


That's kind of the point though. If out of nowhere Carmelo came out and said "Hey, I'm gay guys." that would be huge. Jason Collins though? You know what everyone who isn't a rabid basketball fan said? "Who?" No one cares. This takes a guy who no one ever talked about, even when he was in his prime, and gives him his 15 minutes of fame.

I fully expect an owner, probably Cuban, to sign him next season as a "Look at how open minded we are" PR move. There will be a lot of talk when he's signed, and then after his 1 year contract is up he'll fade into obscurity. 

I just don't see this as the hero move that others do. I see it as Collins knew he'd probably be without a job next year, and now he's got a guaranteed job and a New York Times best seller. Smart move on his part, but that's all I see it as.


----------



## R-Star

To clarify, my "no one cares" comment wasn't what I should have typed. Of course everyone cares right now. It was a media storm. My point is, that's not at all going to last since Collins is a nobody.


----------



## letsgoceltics

R-Star said:


> That's kind of the point though. If out of nowhere Carmelo came out and said "Hey, I'm gay guys." that would be huge. Jason Collins though? You know what everyone who isn't a rabid basketball fan said? "Who?" No one cares. This takes a guy who no one ever talked about, even when he was in his prime, and gives him his 15 minutes of fame.
> 
> I fully expect an owner, probably Cuban, to sign him next season as a "Look at how open minded we are" PR move. There will be a lot of talk when he's signed, and then after his 1 year contract is up he'll fade into obscurity.
> 
> I just don't see this as the hero move that others do. I see it as Collins knew he'd probably be without a job next year, and now he's got a guaranteed job and a New York Times best seller. Smart move on his part, but that's all I see it as.


This is exactly my sentiments but apparently he had other motivations as other posters informed me. I think some of the players' coming out and supporting him also wanted some of that PR boost. I'm over it though. He's brave for coming out but I don't see him close to a hero. If some do, then great.


----------



## Da Grinch

wow ...16 pages.

all for something everyone knows there are in all probability 10-20 gay men in the nba in any given season, just based on the percentage of people who are gay. it shouldn't be news, collins shouldn't be a hero nor a pariah. 

and its jason collins of all people , to be truthful the most surprising thing in the whole "born gay" argument the low amount of times his identical but straight twin has been mentioned ...and the fact that he is part of a set of twins has always been the most interesting part about him ...and it still is , he's a fringe nba'er his sexual preference doesn't change that .

if not for the SI story i doubt he would have been mentioned on this board all summer, i tend to agree the timing (not the declaration itself) had more to do with being relevant and making himself a more coveted commodity than anything else.

about the thread itself , its always disconcerting although not surprising how quick some are to denigrate different opinions and often the posters behind them, which is not only hypocritical but a little sad when the reason is supposedly a lack of tolerance.

tolerance isn't liking something its merely allowing others to be without being scornful of them.


----------



## e-monk

I think drippy is gay for Kobe, does that count?


----------



## R-Star

So ESPN has an article up, with what seemed like 4 our of 5 of the guys saying hes not playing in the league only because hes gay so the league is obviously homophobic, or the others saying sure he isn't good enough to play in the league, but that someone should have signed him anyways as a public image stunt.


Are you ****ing kidding me? You're either good enough for the league or you aren't. Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player, and that's why he isn't in the league. His sexuality has nothing to do with it.


----------



## R-Star

J.A. Adande even went as far as to say he doesn't understand how Bynum and Oden got signed, but no one gave a shot to Collins.

This is probably the stupidest thing I've heard in quite some time.


----------



## Adam

This guy's no hero. He knew he was finished as a player and did this for the publicity while he still had the platform. He wants to parley this into television or whatever. If he was a real role model why didn't he come out earlier? He was never getting picked up this off-season, gay or straight.


----------



## R-Star

Adam said:


> This guy's no hero. He knew he was finished as a player and did this for the publicity while he still had the platform. He wants to parley this into television or whatever. If he was a real role model why didn't he come out earlier? He was never getting picked up this off-season, gay or straight.


I thought maybe Cuban would pick him up for publicity. But I agree with what you said there.

If ESPN is going to run their mouths about how teams could use his locker room presence, why the hell aren't they giving him a job then?


Not to mention I guess the guy had a wife for 9 years and cheated on her all the time with dudes, yet we're supposed to view him as a hero just because hes gay?

I hate what society has become.


----------



## rocketeer

R-Star said:


> So ESPN has an article up, with what seemed like 4 our of 5 of the guys saying hes not playing in the league only because hes gay so the league is obviously homophobic, or the others saying sure he isn't good enough to play in the league, but that someone should have signed him anyways as a public image stunt.
> 
> 
> Are you ****ing kidding me? You're either good enough for the league or you aren't. Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player, and that's why he isn't in the league. His sexuality has nothing to do with it.


yeah, that article was really confusing to me. if he was good enough to be in the league, he would be.


----------



## seifer0406

I think Lebron can come out as a pedophile cannibal and still play in the league.

I do applaud Jason Collins' courage for coming out and I believe his motives weren't money driven. These articles about him not getting a job because he's gay are flatout ridiculous. He shouldn't have been on a roster 5 years ago much less today.l


----------



## doctordrizzay

seifer0406 said:


> *I think Lebron can come out as a pedophile cannibal and still play in the league.*
> 
> I do applaud Jason Collins' courage for coming out and I believe his motives weren't money driven. These articles about him not getting a job because he's gay are flatout ridiculous. He shouldn't have been on a roster 5 years ago much less today.l


What? That's some sick thoughts.


----------



## Zei_Zao_LS

I'd still sign LeBron if he were a pedophile cannibal whale hunter gyspy chav demon worshiping hipster who finished all of his sentences with "per se". You can spin anything in PR.


----------



## seifer0406

Let's say that Lebron goes to jail for 2 years for molesting a kid. I bet after he comes out some ESPN writer will write about how Roman Polanski is allowed to make movies.

These articles are articles about *nothing*.


----------



## Bogg

Well, self-righteous indignation notwithstanding, Collins is probably going to be on a roster come February unless most of the big centers around the league come up injured. He's still seven feet tall, he still defends the post well, and you can still stick him at the end of your bench without him complaining about playing time or touches. We can have a whole round of "Its cuz he's GAY!!!!!" then. Don't get too worked up about an ESPN article written to get people to click on it.


----------



## Diable

The problem Collins has is that there aren't any scoring bigs left in the NBA. If you had a couple of those guys around in your conference, then you could justify keeping Collins around just in case you drew them in the playoffs. Since that's the only thing he has value doing, then he's pretty much a dinosaur. He sucks at everything else.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

I don't doubt that many players in the NBA are homophobic but Jason Collins isn't very good at basketball and it's why no basketball team is interested in him. That's really the bottom line. 

ESPN should stick to sports and not try to dip into issues of discrimination in which they way out of their element.


----------



## Bogg

Diable said:


> The problem Collins has is that there aren't any scoring bigs left in the NBA. If you had a couple of those guys around in your conference, then you could justify keeping Collins around just in case you drew them in the playoffs. Since that's the only thing he has value doing, then he's pretty much a dinosaur. He sucks at everything else.


If you're Miami and you're looking at a likely Detroit-Brooklyn-Indiana path through the East, or if you're the Knicks and Kenyon Martin breaks down, or OKC turns Perkins into Gortat and suddenly Dallas is looking at dealing with Duncan-Howard-Gortat all in-division, having an extra big body on the bench isn't a bad proposition.


----------



## Diable

Bogg said:


> If you're Miami and you're looking at a likely Detroit-Brooklyn-Indiana path through the East, or if you're the Knicks and Kenyon Martin breaks down, or OKC turns Perkins into Gortat and suddenly Dallas is looking at dealing with Duncan-Howard-Gortat all in-division, having an extra big body on the bench isn't a bad proposition.


In what way is Jason Collins better than Joel Anthony? For that matter why can't I just get someone out of the D league who can sit on the end of my bench and maybe that guy turns into a good player some day. Collins will get older on the end of your bench, but he's not going to make much of a difference otherwise.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Diable said:


> In what way is Jason Collins better than Joel Anthony?


The extra 3" makes all the difference in the world. Ask your girlfriend if you don't believe me.


----------



## Bogg

Diable said:


> In what way is Jason Collins better than Joel Anthony? For that matter why can't I just get someone out of the D league who can sit on the end of my bench and maybe that guy turns into a good player some day. Collins will get older on the end of your bench, but he's not going to make much of a difference otherwise.


You're talking about the same team that's signed Juwan Howard each of the last three seasons as an emergency big that won't create problems if he never sees the court. Spoelstra doesn't want to be babysitting a 21-year-old on the road in the playoffs, especially with Beasely already on the roster for him to potentially hang out with. 

We saw last spring that Anthony simply doesn't have the size to bother true seven-footers with developed post games. That's the one thing that Collins is still good at, making him a logical successor to the very specific role that Howard has filled ever since Lebron came to town. Maybe he'll sign there and maybe he won't, but there's nothing that Howard was able to do over the last three years that Collins can't.


----------



## Diable

I don't know if you know this, but Juwan Howard is better than Jason Collins. It's a sad thing to say, but it is true. He can still play the game better than Collins can. That is not saying much however.


----------



## Bogg

Diable said:


> I don't know if you know this, but Juwan Howard is better than Jason Collins. It's a sad thing to say, but it is true. He can still play the game better than Collins can. That is not saying much however.


Juwan Howard hasn't played a meaningful minute of basketball, beyond "he's big and he's out there", since he was in Portland. Howard filling the exact role for three straight years that Collins would doesn't fit your narrative, but it's the truth.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Diable said:


> I don't know if you know this, but Juwan Howard is better than Jason Collins. It's a sad thing to say, but it is true. He can still play the game better than Collins can. That is not saying much however.


It's true in general, but not as regards the one "talent" that Miami would be looking for out of Collins were they to sign him.


----------



## Hibachi!

Juwan Howard wasn't there for on the court purposes. He was there as a locker-room presence.


----------



## Bogg

Hibachi! said:


> Juwan Howard wasn't there for on the court purposes. He was there as a locker-room presence.


You could say the same about Collins in Boston and Washington last season. At least before this year, Collins was viewed as a great locker-room presence.


----------



## edabomb

I completely agreed with the above view points initially. Jason Collins is a very borderline NBA player - he shouldn't get a roster spot ahead of a more capable heterosexual player.

Then I thought about it more and I can see the significance of him suiting up outweighs the 500th best player in the world missing out on a roster spot as a result. To have an openly gay athlete in professional sports would be a pretty major deal for a lot of young people dealing with their own sexuality issues.... The main thing is that I don't see anyone else coming out in the near future as likely - I'd say it may be another five years till we see a similar opportunity.

While I do question Jason Collins motives I hope he is on a roster at some stage this season.


----------



## Bogg

edabomb said:


> While I do question Jason Collins motives


Why's that?


----------



## Porn Player

Jason Collins is a basketball player. That is all.


----------



## edabomb

Bogg said:


> Why's that?


The fact he waited until the offseason he looked like he would struggle to get a deal to announce it is the point that makes me a bit pessimistic. Last season for instance he had a deal signed by the end of July so he was quite clearly going to make a roster.


----------



## Adam

The guy is not a hero. He kept quiet through the rash of gay suicides we had in recent years and murders and the Shephard legislation. He changes his jersey to 98 to honor Shephard his last year in Boston but where was that earlier? If he was brave or noteworthy or significant he would have come out sooner.

I'm not calling him a villain, I'm just saying he isn't a hero. He doesn't deserve the praise he gets for being "brave" or "first." He keeps quiet until the same year he knows he won't get another contract. Congrats, you get to be "first" and get your face on the cover of a magazine and go down in the history books. Now go away. You didn't use your position or power when you should have.

Guess I'm more cynical than Bogg but I see an attention whore who saw an opportunity and took it. He's either the attention whore or at best he's just somebody who doesn't deserve the idiotic praise he gets. I tend to lean toward the former and wouldn't mind if people at least accepted the latter and not talk about him like he's pushing the envelope or is some kind of role model.


----------



## Bogg

edabomb said:


> The fact he waited until the offseason he looked like he would struggle to get a deal to announce it is the point that makes me a bit pessimistic. Last season for instance he had a deal signed by the end of July so he was quite clearly going to make a roster.


That doesn't make any sense though. The biggest thing that Collins has (had?) going for him at this point was his reputation as a steadying locker room presence and veteran mentor. It's why guys like Jerry Stackhouse and Kurt Thomas were still in the league as recently as last year. Coming out as gay does nothing to _increase_ his likelihood of getting signed to a contract. 





Adam said:


> The guy is not a hero. He kept quiet through the rash of gay suicides we had in recent years and murders and the Shephard legislation. He changes his jersey to 98 to honor Shephard his last year in Boston but where was that earlier? If he was brave or noteworthy or significant he would have come out sooner.
> 
> I'm not calling him a villain, I'm just saying he isn't a hero. He doesn't deserve the praise he gets for being "brave" or "first." He keeps quiet until the same year he knows he won't get another contract. Congrats, you get to be "first" and get your face on the cover of a magazine and go down in the history books. Now go away. You didn't use your position or power when you should have.
> 
> Guess I'm more cynical than Bogg but I see an attention whore who saw an opportunity and took it. He's either the attention whore or at best he's just somebody who doesn't deserve the idiotic praise he gets. I tend to lean toward the former and wouldn't mind if people at least accepted the latter and not talk about him like he's pushing the envelope or is some kind of role model.



This would make some bit of sense if hadn't accepted his sexuality in his private life relatively recently. It sounds like you're more angry at people who think this is more noteworthy than you do than you actually are with how Collins has handled himself since he announced it. The _only_ thing I've heard out of his camp (him, his brother, his agent) in the last few months is something along the lines of "I'm still the same guy I've always been, I'm working out by myself as hard as I can and hoping for a call".


----------



## edabomb

Bogg said:


> That doesn't make any sense though. The biggest thing that Collins has (had?) going for him at this point was his reputation as a steadying locker room presence and veteran mentor. It's why guys like Jerry Stackhouse and Kurt Thomas were still in the league as recently as last year. Coming out as gay does nothing to _increase_ his likelihood of getting signed to a contract.



Stackhouse could still give a team an inefficient 7 or 8pts off the bench to a team that was desperate for it. He was just lucky Brooklyn was. Collins could have a role if a team was equally desperate for a big body - I mean if Shaq was in his prime he would DEFINITELY have a role as six fouls off the bench. I just don't think the circumstances are there for him ATM.

Kurt Thomas was still a better player at nearly 40 than Collins IMO - I mean Collins averaged 1.1 and 1.6 in 10 minutes last season.... Thomas was still grabbing 6 rebounds a game a couple of years ago - Collins hasn't done that since 2004/05. Thomas could also still finish if given the chance too - Collins is a complete non-factor on offense.

IMO both of these guys were far better contributors to Collins last season so it makes sense to me that they'd have contracts and he wouldn't. That's the difference in our thinking.


----------



## Bogg

edabomb said:


> Stackhouse could still give a team an inefficient 7 or 8pts off the bench to a team that was desperate for it. He was just lucky Brooklyn was. Collins could have a role if a team was equally desperate for a big body - I mean if Shaq was in his prime he would DEFINITELY have a role as six fouls off the bench. I just don't think the circumstances are there for him ATM.
> 
> Kurt Thomas was still a better player at nearly 40 than Collins IMO - I mean Collins averaged 1.1 and 1.6 in 10 minutes last season.... Thomas was still grabbing 6 rebounds a game a couple of years ago - Collins hasn't done that since 2004/05. Thomas could also still finish if given the chance too - Collins is a complete non-factor on offense.
> 
> IMO both of these guys were far better contributors to Collins last season so it makes sense to me that they'd have contracts and he wouldn't. That's the difference in our thinking.


Stackhouse shot a terrible percentage last year while being unable to create for himself and Kurt Thomas averaged 2 and 2 while being unable to play on back-to-back nights despite averaging 10 minutes a game, and _still_ broke down. Just like Juwan Howard, who appeared in all of seven games last season, neither of those guys were in the league because of their talent. Is Marcus Camby on the Rockets because he was a good, reliable veteran in New York last year (hint: he wasn't), or because Dwight needs to be surrounded by professionals who can help give him pointers? 


I don't have a problem with someone thinking Collins isn't _good enough_ anymore. He's a borderline NBA player, that's what it is. I don't know when the last time you sat down and watched Jason Collins with any regularity was, but from what I saw of him in Boston last year, he's still a good enough post defender to warrant a spot at the end of the bench for a team that needs help in that department. If you don't agree with me, fine. The idea that coming out as gay was a career move designed to increase his likelihood of getting signed to a team makes no sense, however.


----------



## edabomb

Bogg said:


> Stackhouse shot a terrible percentage last year while being unable to create for himself and Kurt Thomas averaged 2 and 2 while being unable to play on back-to-back nights despite averaging 10 minutes a game, and _still_ broke down. Just like Juwan Howard, who appeared in all of seven games last season, neither of those guys were in the league because of their talent. Is Marcus Camby on the Rockets because he was a good, reliable veteran in New York last year (hint: he wasn't), or because Dwight needs to be surrounded by professionals who can help give him pointers?
> 
> 
> I don't have a problem with someone thinking Collins isn't _good enough_ anymore. He's a borderline NBA player, that's what it is. I don't know when the last time you sat down and watched Jason Collins with any regularity was, but from what I saw of him in Boston last year, he's still a good enough post defender to warrant a spot at the end of the bench for a team that needs help in that department. If you don't agree with me, fine. *The idea that coming out as gay was a career move designed to increase his likelihood of getting signed to a team makes no sense, however.*


Would there be a 5 on 5 dedicated to him on ESPN if he hadn't? Would 4 of 5 analysts suggest he should be signed if he hadn't?

Would anybody have mentioned Jason Collins being unsigned since the end of last season if he hadn't?


----------



## Bogg

edabomb said:


> Would there be a 5 on 5 dedicated to him on ESPN if he hadn't? Would 4 of 5 analysts suggest he should be signed if he hadn't?
> 
> Would anybody have mentioned Jason Collins being unsigned since the end of last season if he hadn't?


You're confusing newsworthiness with likelihood to be signed. Last year Collins was a quiet, unassuming veteran who was generally well-liked among his teammates. Now any GM who thinks about bringing him in has to weigh whether it's worth the extra media scrutiny over his playing time, whether his players or coaches are going to (secretly or openly) be uncomfortable with his presence, whether it's going to create distractions throughout the season, etc. It _absolutely_ has gotten his name in more headlines, but you're going to have to explain why that makes him more likely to be signed. 

Unless, you know, you think it's a conspiracy by the homosexual lobby to force themselves upon some poor, uninterested NBA franchise...


----------



## edabomb

Bogg said:


> You're confusing newsworthiness with likelihood to be signed. Last year Collins was a quiet, unassuming veteran who was generally well-liked among his teammates. Now any GM who thinks about bringing him in has to weigh whether it's worth the extra media scrutiny over his playing time, whether his players or coaches are going to (secretly or openly) be uncomfortable with his presence, whether it's going to create distractions throughout the season, etc. It _absolutely_ has gotten his name in more headlines, but you're going to have to explain why that makes him more likely to be signed.
> 
> Unless, you know, you think it's a conspiracy by the homosexual lobby to force themselves upon some poor, uninterested NBA franchise...


I just think GMs can swayed by the public sentiment - or at least he may have been hoping they would be. It is all speculation on my behalf - I accept that.

To say he the timing of the announcement couldn't possibly have had some slight alterior motive is very trusting. Especially given he could have waited to see how this off season played out to make his announcement - or announced it last season when he was in the league.


----------



## Bogg

edabomb said:


> To say he the timing of the announcement couldn't possibly have had some slight alterior motive is very trusting.


I'm not saying it isn't _possible_, I'm saying the theory doesn't hold up to reason. 



edabomb said:


> Especially given he could have waited to see how this off season played out to make his announcement - or announced it last season when he was in the league.


If he waited until now to announce it you'd be screaming up and down about how he only made the announcement now _because_ he wasn't signed. He didn't announce in the middle of the season because he said he didn't think it would be fair to a team to turn them into a media circus mid-year. It's all very logical.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Juwan Howard hasn't played a meaningful minute of basketball, beyond "he's big and he's out there", since he was in Portland. Howard filling the exact role for three straight years that Collins would doesn't fit your narrative, but it's the truth.


While that may be true, Juwan Howard was a guy who was once a star.

If I have 2 guys who are supposedly there just for locker room purposes, I'm picking the guy the players are going to at least maybe listen to. 

****, I don't even know if I'd take basketball advice from Jason. His career year was 6 and 6. That's his career year. And that was 10 years ago.

The guy has no business on a court in China, let alone in the NBA. He was a garbage player when he was drafted, and hes a garbage player now.

"Listen guys, when you're in crunch time, and you need to make a big play..." -Jason Collins

Let me stop you right there Jason, because no one gives a ****. That's what would happen. People would cut the guy off. It would be like Skreetch trying to give Zack dating advice on Saved By The Bell.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> That doesn't make any sense though. The biggest thing that Collins has (had?) going for him at this point was his reputation as a steadying locker room presence and veteran mentor. It's why guys like Jerry Stackhouse and Kurt Thomas were still in the league as recently as last year. Coming out as gay does nothing to _increase_ his likelihood of getting signed to a contract.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This would make some bit of sense if hadn't accepted his sexuality in his private life relatively recently. It sounds like you're more angry at people who think this is more noteworthy than you do than you actually are with how Collins has handled himself since he announced it. The _only_ thing I've heard out of his camp (him, his brother, his agent) in the last few months is something along the lines of "I'm still the same guy I've always been, I'm working out by myself as hard as I can and hoping for a call".


He was married and cheated on his wife for something like 9 years.

The guys no hero, hes a piece of trash.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> While that may be true, Juwan Howard was a guy who was once a star.
> 
> If I have 2 guys who are supposedly there just for locker room purposes, I'm picking the guy the players are going to at least maybe listen to.
> 
> ****, I don't even know if I'd take basketball advice from Jason. His career year was 6 and 6. That's his career year. And that was 10 years ago.
> 
> The guy has no business on a court in China, let alone in the NBA. He was a garbage player when he was drafted, and hes a garbage player now.
> 
> "Listen guys, when you're in crunch time, and you need to make a big play..." -Jason Collins
> 
> Let me stop you right there Jason, because no one gives a ****. That's what would happen. People would cut the guy off. It would be like Skreetch trying to give Zack dating advice on Saved By The Bell.


.....except that's not what's happened at all. Nice theoreticals, but the young guys in Washington(his last stop) came out and said he was a good veteran presence in the locker room. He's not out there giving John Wall tips on his three, he's helping the young guys with the day-to-day professionalism the league requires. His stats haven't changed significantly since he left New Jersey, every stop he's been signed for post defense and his locker room presence. 




R-Star said:


> He was married and cheated on his wife for something like 9 years.
> 
> The guys no hero, hes a piece of trash.


Collins was never married. You should really know what you're talking about if you're going to get so animated.


----------



## seifer0406

I don't think Collins came out because he wanted to make money. Let's say that his plan worked and he gained a 2 year contract out of this entire ordeal, that's 2 years of veteran's minimum which comes out to like 2 million dollars total. Not to say 2 million isn't a lot of money, the guy made over 30 mil in his career. He didn't write a book and as far as I know didn't make money going on talk shows and what have you. To do all this for a veteran's minimum contract (and not ending up getting it) just seems silly to me. Not to mention if he really needed the money he could still go overseas to China or Europe and play until he's 40 and probably end up making the same amount of money as playing a year or two in the NBA. The ESPN articles are another thing but the man himself did it for the right reasons.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> .....except that's not what's happened at all. Nice theoreticals, but the young guys in Washington(his last stop) came out and said he was a good veteran presence in the locker room. He's not out there giving John Wall tips on his three, he's helping the young guys with the day-to-day professionalism the league requires. His stats haven't changed significantly since he left New Jersey, every stop he's been signed for post defense and his locker room presence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Collins was never married. You should really know what you're talking about if you're going to get so animated.


Oh I'm sorry. I meant engaged. Engaged to a woman he didn't tell he was gay until days after he was doing his publicity tour for coming out.

Sorry to get that wrong Bogg. Guess I had no clue what I was talking about. 

And just quit with the locker room presence crap. So he can't play a lick of basketball, but he should be signed for his amazing locker room work in Washington? He sure led them to maturity didn't he?

Kurt Thomas is a well known locker room guy, who people actually respect since he used to be a good player. Hes available. 

Joel Przybilla is also known as a good locker room guy. Still available. 

Then there's the handful of guys still available who could have bounce back years Darko, Wilcox, Fesenko, etc.


Again, Jason Collins does not have a job because hes a shit basketball player. There is no team in the NBA interested in bringing a guy like him in solely to be a locker room guy. Like I said, hes never been a real contributor in the NBA, so why bother? You gloss over my Juwan Howard comparison, and the reason you did so is because its apt. Juwan was a big name player and winner. Collins was a nobody. If both guys are supposedly nice locker room guys, who do you want? Choice is pretty clear to me.


----------



## R-Star

seifer0406 said:


> I don't think Collins came out because he wanted to make money. Let's say that his plan worked and he gained a 2 year contract out of this entire ordeal, that's 2 years of veteran's minimum which comes out to like 2 million dollars total. Not to say 2 million isn't a lot of money, the guy made over 30 mil in his career. He didn't write a book and as far as I know didn't make money going on talk shows and what have you. To do all this for a veteran's minimum contract (and not ending up getting it) just seems silly to me. Not to mention if he really needed the money he could still go overseas to China or Europe and play until he's 40 and probably end up making the same amount of money as playing a year or two in the NBA. The ESPN articles are another thing but the man himself did it for the right reasons.


They don't really sign slow, solely defensive centers in China or Europe to my knowledge. They play the game quite a bit further out from the basket. 

As far as the money, saying making 1/15th of what hes made in his whole life in 1 year isn't worthwhile, that's insane.


----------



## FortyDaysThree

Collins is a terrible player and only has a contract because he is gay.


----------



## R-Star

He uh.... he doesn't have a contract bro.

He's not in the league.


----------



## Geaux Tigers

Damn...he blew R Stars approval already.


----------



## FortyDaysThree

I thought he signed earlier. I guess he got cut when I was vacationing from sports.


----------



## edabomb

R-Star said:


> They don't really sign slow, solely defensive centers in China or Europe to my knowledge. They play the game quite a bit further out from the basket.
> 
> As far as the money, saying making 1/15th of what hes made in his whole life in 1 year isn't worthwhile, that's insane.


:rofl2:

Being from New Zealand I see a fair bit of the Australian NBL. Guys like Collins are more worthless in international ball than NBA ball - I don't know what Chinese and European teams would be paying $1 million for Collins. If that was the case I don't think you'd see veteran bigs hanging round into their late 30s the way you do - guys like Nazr Mohammed would be off earning $5 million in China.

Here is a test as a result of the announcement. I say free agent post defender - who is the first person that comes to mind?


----------



## seifer0406

R-Star said:


> They don't really sign slow, solely defensive centers in China or Europe to my knowledge. They play the game quite a bit further out from the basket.
> 
> As far as the money, saying making 1/15th of what hes made in his whole life in 1 year isn't worthwhile, that's insane.


I don't know, maybe you have a point about him having a career elsewhere.

And it's not necessarily getting 1/15th of his career earnings, it's a *possibility* to earn 1/15th or 1/30th of his career earnings. By the look of things that chance turns out to be negative. I just don't think he came out of the closet for that. It's not like he's Ricky Martin where everyone already knew that he was gay. Collins's own fiance had no idea so the dude was way deep in that closet. You just don't come out of there for a chance to make a mil or two. Him not writing a book or going on some form of publicity tour just confirms that imo.


----------



## R-Star

seifer0406 said:


> I don't know, maybe you have a point about him having a career elsewhere.
> 
> And it's not necessarily getting 1/15th of his career earnings, it's a *possibility* to earn 1/15th or 1/30th of his career earnings. By the look of things that chance turns out to be negative. I just don't think he came out of the closet for that. It's not like he's Ricky Martin where everyone already knew that he was gay. Collins's own fiance had no idea so the dude was way deep in that closet. You just don't come out of there for a chance to make a mil or two. Him not writing a book or going on some form of publicity tour just confirms that imo.


I'm pretty confident he will write a book. If/When that happens it shouldn't surprise anyone.

Its a very odd time to decide to come out. Perhaps he knew his career was winding down and he did it to make sure he could while he was still in the league, to use that as a vocal platform. I'm fine with that. I don't care why exactly he chose the time he did, I just take issue with anyone acting like he belongs in the league. He doesn't.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Oh I'm sorry. I meant engaged. Engaged to a woman he didn't tell he was gay until days after he was doing his publicity tour for coming out.
> 
> Sorry to get that wrong Bogg. Guess I had no clue what I was talking about.


Yea, it seems likely that he _probably_ cheated on his girlfriend at some point. The extent of it, or if it even happened, we don't know. That just puts him on par with the majority of the NBA, as far as I'm concerned. If some groupie ever says she slept with Paul George when he had another girlfriend, will you lead the charge to get him off the Pacers? I mean, seriously, how do you feel about Magic Johnson? Is he a horrible, awful person for cheating on his eventual wife and potentially exposing her to a life-threatening disease, or did he do a lot of good in increasing society's knowledge of a serious public health crisis? A little of both? 





R-Star said:


> Again, Jason Collins does not have a job because hes a shit basketball player. There is no team in the NBA interested in bringing a guy like him in solely to be a locker room guy. Like I said, hes never been a real contributor in the NBA, so why bother? You gloss over my Juwan Howard comparison, and the reason you did so is because its apt. Juwan was a big name player and winner. Collins was a nobody. If both guys are supposedly nice locker room guys, who do you want? Choice is pretty clear to me.


Who glossed over your Juwan Howard comparison? I said it was flat-out wrong because guys _haven't_ tuned out Collins like that. It was a nice theoretical you made up in your head, but the evidence doesn't bear it out. 

Furthermore, nobody's said "he can't contribute in any way on the court, but someone should sign him because he's a nice guy". You're making up the argument you want to have like when you claimed I said Dwight to Chicago was a done deal. From what I saw of Collins playing in Boston last year, he still defends the Roy Hibberts and Zach Randolphs of the world well enough to warrant a look from a team that needs help in that area. He gives you 70% of what Kendrick Perkins does, but you can pick him up for the minimum at the start of March, and he won't make noise if you never actually wind up having to play him. If you watched a bunch of Celtics and Wizards games last year and don't think he defends well, fine - he's a borderline NBA player at best anyway. The idea that he _doesn't_ fit the mold of "defensive specialist and locker room presence" is idiotic though, because every team that's brought him in after New Jersey has done it for that specific reason despite the fact that his stats haven't changed in five years. \

You seem more upset at sports writers and people on twitter who have nothing to do with anything than you do with the idea that Collins could passably defend Brook Lopez for two minutes in the event that Al Horford catches an elbow and the trainer needs to stop the bleeding.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Yea, it seems likely that he _probably_ cheated on his girlfriend at some point. The extent of it, or if it even happened, we don't know. That just puts him on par with the majority of the NBA, as far as I'm concerned. If some groupie ever says she slept with Paul George when he had another girlfriend, will you lead the charge to get him off the Pacers? I mean, seriously, how do you feel about Magic Johnson? Is he a horrible, awful person for cheating on his eventual wife and potentially exposing her to a life-threatening disease, or did he do a lot of good in increasing society's knowledge of a serious public health crisis? A little of both?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who glossed over your Juwan Howard comparison? I said it was flat-out wrong because guys _haven't_ tuned out Collins like that. It was a nice theoretical you made up in your head, but the evidence doesn't bear it out.
> 
> Furthermore, nobody's said "he can't contribute in any way on the court, but someone should sign him because he's a nice guy". You're making up the argument you want to have like when you claimed I said Dwight to Chicago was a done deal. From what I saw of Collins playing in Boston last year, he still defends the Roy Hibberts and Zach Randolphs of the world well enough to warrant a look from a team that needs help in that area. He gives you 70% of what Kendrick Perkins does, but you can pick him up for the minimum at the start of March, and he won't make noise if you never actually wind up having to play him. If you watched a bunch of Celtics and Wizards games last year and don't think he defends well, fine - he's a borderline NBA player at best anyway. The idea that he *doesn't fit the mold of "defensive specialist and locker room presence" is idiotic *though, because every team that's brought him in after New Jersey has done it for that specific reason despite the fact that his stats haven't changed in five years. \
> 
> You seem more upset at sports writers and people on twitter who have nothing to do with anything than you do with the idea that Collins could passably defend Brook Lopez for two minutes in the event that Al Horford catches an elbow and the trainer needs to stop the bleeding.


The fact no ones signed him clearly states no one thinks hes NBA worthy. Do you honestly think NBA teams are holding out on him because hes gay? Because that's the only viable alternative to your argument.

As far as him cheating on his fiance, that's only part of the issue. The other part is that he wasted her life, lying to her about his sexuality. She'll probably never have kids now according to her. Its not the same as another NBA player picking up a groupie. And yes, I would view Paul George in a bad light if he had a wife and cheated on her. That isn't why I made my argument though.

And did you honestly just ask me if I think Magic is a bad guy for exposing his wife to aids? I think I've made my stance on enough things clear around here that you should already know the answer to that.


And you did basically say Dwight to Chicago was done. It was "The best deal Orlando could hope to get" and "They'd be stupid to turn it down. Clearly this deal is going down."


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> The fact no ones signed him clearly states no one thinks hes NBA worthy. Do you honestly think NBA teams are holding out on him because hes gay? Because that's the only viable alternative to your argument.


I never said that he's not in the league because he's gay. What I said was, in response to comments that he has absolutely no basketball value to anyone and only announced he was gay to try to land anther contract that

A) He's a pretty straightforward candidate for the end of the bench roleplayer/mentor role that we see several players fill every year

B)When I watched him play last season, he looked like he still defended big post scorers passably well. Not Marc Gasol/Roy Hibbert type work, but enough that you could put him out there for very short stints if you were in a real bind and that

C) The idea that announcing he was gay would _increase_ the likelihood he would get signed makes no sense. It made him more newsworthy, but not more valuable to a team.

If he doesn't get signed, it doesn't necessarily mean anything, because he was only a borderline NBA player to begin with. However, the idea that there was _no_ real justification for any NBA team to _ever_ sign him for any reason, other than because he's gay, is wrong. He has very limited utility, and has had very limited utility for a while, but there are things he provides. Primarily post defense, but yes, also veteran guidance. It's why he's eventually signed with a team each of the last five years, despite his stat lines being fairly similar (and unimpressive) each year. 



R-Star said:


> As far as him cheating on his fiance, that's only part of the issue. The other part is that he wasted her life, lying to her about his sexuality. She'll probably never have kids now according to her. Its not the same as another NBA player picking up a groupie. And yes, I would view Paul George in a bad light if he had a wife and cheated on her. That isn't why I made my argument though.


Girlfriend. Not wife. You keep using that "wife" word. It's a big difference. You're also acting like he knew and accepted that he was gay the entire time and made the conscious decision to deceive her for his own gain. Nothing that's been published has indicated that's the case. Do you go around denouncing everyone who's broken up with a long-term boyfriend/girlfriend that didn't want to break up? If I dated a girl for a long time, but eventually fell out of love, am I obligated to still marry her?

Yea, it sucks for her, and nothing I've read has made her seem like anything other than a decent, innocent person who wound up involved with a troubled person. In an ideal world, Collins would have felt like it was okay for him to be gay at a much younger age, and he wouldn't have felt the need to try to be straight. That's the world he's trying to create for others, so that they don't have to repeat the mistakes he made. THAT'S the whole point, not that Collins is a perfect person and hero who's always done everything right. 



R-Star said:


> And did you honestly just ask me if I think Magic is a bad guy for exposing his wife to aids? I think I've made my stance on enough things clear around here that you should already know the answer to that.


The point was that nobody celebrates what Magic did for HIV awareness using the starting point that Magic Johnson is a perfect person and that everything he's ever done in his life is great. If your take-away from the whole Jason Collins story was "He dated a girl for a long time and then BROKE UP with her! I also assume he wasn't 100% faithful!" (Because, let's be honest, there's no proof he actually cheated on her. You're assuming it, and you're probably right, but you're still assuming it) then you don't even understand the conversation other people are having.




R-Star said:


> And you did basically say Dwight to Chicago was done. It was "The best deal Orlando could hope to get" and "They'd be stupid to turn it down. Clearly this deal is going down."


Christ, we're doing this again? You looked crazy when it happened, and you're going to look crazy again if you dig it up. Everything I ever posted about Dwight and Chicago was about how the Bulls _should_ get involved. Not were involved, not are involved, not will be involved. That I thought it would be a good idea *if* they did. You either misunderstood about a weeks' worth of comments in that thread, or just decided that you were going to have the argument that you wanted to have, facts be damned.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> I never said that he's not in the league because he's gay. What I said was, in response to comments that he has absolutely no basketball value to anyone and only announced he was gay to try to land anther contract that
> 
> A) He's a pretty straightforward candidate for the end of the bench roleplayer/mentor role that we see several players fill every year
> 
> B)When I watched him play last season, he looked like he still defended big post scorers passably well. Not Marc Gasol/Roy Hibbert type work, but enough that you could put him out there for very short stints if you were in a real bind and that
> 
> C) The idea that announcing he was gay would _increase_ the likelihood he would get signed makes no sense. It made him more newsworthy, but not more valuable to a team.
> 
> If he doesn't get signed, it doesn't necessarily mean anything, because he was only a borderline NBA player to begin with. However, the idea that there was _no_ real justification for any NBA team to _ever_ sign him for any reason, other than because he's gay, is wrong. He has very limited utility, and has had very limited utility for a while, but there are things he provides. Primarily post defense, but yes, also veteran guidance. It's why he's eventually signed with a team each of the last five years, despite his stat lines being fairly similar (and unimpressive) each year.
> 
> 
> 
> Girlfriend. Not wife. You keep using that "wife" word. It's a big difference. You're also acting like he knew and accepted that he was gay the entire time and made the conscious decision to deceive her for his own gain. Nothing that's been published has indicated that's the case. Do you go around denouncing everyone who's broken up with a long-term boyfriend/girlfriend that didn't want to break up? If I dated a girl for a long time, but eventually fell out of love, am I obligated to still marry her?
> 
> Yea, it sucks for her, and nothing I've read has made her seem like anything other than a decent, innocent person who wound up involved with a troubled person. In an ideal world, Collins would have felt like it was okay for him to be gay at a much younger age, and he wouldn't have felt the need to try to be straight. That's the world he's trying to create for others, so that they don't have to repeat the mistakes he made. THAT'S the whole point, not that Collins is a perfect person and hero who's always done everything right.
> 
> 
> 
> The point was that nobody celebrates what Magic did for HIV awareness using the starting point that Magic Johnson is a perfect person and that everything he's ever done in his life is great. If your take-away from the whole Jason Collins story was "He dated a girl for a long time and then BROKE UP with her! I also assume he wasn't 100% faithful!" (Because, let's be honest, there's no proof he actually cheated on her. You're assuming it, and you're probably right, but you're still assuming it) then you don't even understand the conversation other people are having.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Christ, we're doing this again? You looked crazy when it happened, and you're going to look crazy again if you dig it up. Everything I ever posted about Dwight and Chicago was about how the Bulls _should_ get involved. Not were involved, not are involved, not will be involved. That I thought it would be a good idea *if* they did. You either misunderstood about a weeks' worth of comments in that thread, or just decided that you were going to have the argument that you wanted to have, facts be damned.


If you're going to continue this, actually reading posts and not getting all bothered, angry, and reading what you want to be in my posts instead of what's in there might help.

I clearly stated fiance. Not girlfriend, not wife, fiance. That's what she was. She was his fiance. 

You also keep throwing it out there like if it was his legal wife it would be way different. Its not. Anyone who is with someone for 8 years has the same relationship with their partner that a married couple has.

If you're going to come in here and try to paint me in the light of a bigot out to get Collins, and act all sanctimonious, I can do the same. 

So I guess since it only matters if people who are married cheat on each other, then it doesn't matter if one partner of a gay couple cheats on the other. For the most part they aren't allowed marriage rights, so it really isn't the same if one of them cheats on the other. Well it sure isn't the equivalent of a married straight person cheating right? You ****ing bigot.


See how easy that is? Look, I've stated pretty clearly I don't care if hes gay. He isn't a viable NBA player. I mentioned a handful of players who are better than him without a contract. Even some with the same skill set. You refuse to even acknowledge that. 

Jason Collins isn't in the league because he doesn't warrant a roster spot on an NBA team. Argue that all you'd like. Try to make it into something else if you wish, but that is the discussion. 

I'll ask again for the second time. *Do you honestly think NBA teams are holding out on him because hes gay? Because that's the only viable alternative to your argument.*

Because according to you he warrants a spot on an NBA bench. According to you his skill set hasn't declined one iota over the past 5 years (pretty much your exact words minus iota), so the fact he doesn't have a job now is baffling to me.


----------



## Jamel Irief

I want to see the Dwight Howard to Chicago thread. It sounds entertaining.


----------



## R-Star

Jamel Irief said:


> I want to see the Dwight Howard to Chicago thread. It sounds entertaining.


I was only part time archivist. 

Do your job.


----------



## Jamel Irief

R-Star said:


> I was only part time archivist.
> 
> Do your job.


Found it.

Within your first 3 posts you used the word "delusional" and the phrase "fantasy land." I felt like I was reading a thread from yesterday. :yesyesyes:



R-star said:


> Are you delusional? Hes an NBA superstar. They aren't trading him to a team that isn't on the list. And you think a team like Chicago is going to trade big assets like Noah and "hope" he stays? No. Not a chance.
> 
> You're being ridiculous.





R-star said:


> Absolute ridiculousness. Chicago isn't on Dwights list because Dwight knows Chicago probably doesn't want to break up their core for him? Wow. We're really reaching now aren't we.
> 
> And no, when someone like Dwight wants a trade they don't go to their agent and say "I want to be traded. No real specific team in mind. Just pick the 3 teams you think would make a move for me."
> 
> Again, absolute garbage. Why some of you insist on living in some strange fairy tale land is beyond me.


----------



## R-Star

See, you served your purpose. 

You archive things.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> If you're going to come in here and try to paint me in the light of a bigot out to get Collins, and act all sanctimonious, I can do the same.


I don't think you're a bigot. I think you read some twitter posts and internet articles that you didn't agree with and decided to come here to yell about them. 





R-Star said:


> So I guess since it only matters if people who are married cheat on each other, then it doesn't matter if one partner of a gay couple cheats on the other. For the most part they aren't allowed marriage rights, so it really isn't the same if one of them cheats on the other. Well it sure isn't the equivalent of a married straight person cheating right? You ****ing bigot.


Never did I say that it was okay _if_ he did cheat on her (which we don't know but seems likely), I said that "Jason Collins, perfect person" isn't what anyone reasonable is celebrating. They're excited that we're as close as we've come to having a person be comfortable being openly gay in a major American sport. Even if he never plays for another team it's significant, because it's a step forward. Going around shouting at people that it isn't news because he broke a girls' heart several years ago just lets everyone know you don't understand the conversation. 




R-Star said:


> See how easy that is? Look, I've stated pretty clearly I don't care if hes gay. He isn't a viable NBA player. I mentioned a handful of players who are better than him without a contract. Even some with the same skill set. You refuse to even acknowledge that.
> 
> Jason Collins isn't in the league because he doesn't warrant a roster spot on an NBA team. Argue that all you'd like. Try to make it into something else if you wish, but that is the discussion.
> 
> I'll ask again for the second time. *Do you honestly think NBA teams are holding out on him because hes gay? Because that's the only viable alternative to your argument.*
> 
> Because according to you he warrants a spot on an NBA bench. According to you his skill set hasn't declined one iota over the past 5 years (pretty much your exact words minus iota), so the fact he doesn't have a job now is baffling to me.


No, according to me, he was, at best, borderline in the league either way. But it's exactly that - he's borderline. It's why he's played on a series of minimum deals previous to this. If he doesn't play in the league again, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. The idea that he's declined _so drastically_ in the last year or two to go from being a reasonable option as an end-of-the-bench defender to complete catastrophe in all aspects of the game is what's wrong. I've never said that he isn't in the league because he's gay, I've said that if a team _does_ bring him in, it's not going to be because he's gay, but because he fills a particular role (the same role he's filled for five years now).

You just saw someone that disagreed with you and superimposed every twitter poster and journalist you've disagreed with over the last four or five months. It's how you wind up responding to "he's an okay deep-bench specialist and good teammate" with "*Do you honestly think NBA teams are holding out on him because hes gay? Because that's the only viable alternative to your argument.*"


----------



## Tom

He is a good defender who is past whatever prime he had.


----------



## Diable

If Collins was a top 200 basketball player he could be gayer than Liberace and someone would give him a contract. At the end of the day the only thing that matters to the vast majority of players, fans and owners is going to be whether or not you can help them win games.

If you are a top 500 player, which is where Collins is (at best), then no one gives a shit about you. Unless it is someone in this thread who can muster up more interest than me.


----------



## Adam

So it doesn't fit reason that a guy who came out in the twilight of his career as opposed to any prior point and benefited from it with attention, praise, and notoriety might have done it to garner said benefits, but it fits reason that all 30 NBA owners are not signing him because he's queer? Bogg, elite reasoner.


----------



## E.H. Munro

That's not what he's saying. Many people made the claim that Collins came out of the closet as a way to get another NBA contract. Bogg's simple, and incredibly logical, response was "Why would a marginal NBA player whose primary value is as a locker room guy expect to extend his career by taking away one of his few selling points?"

That's what r-star is ignoring. Now that he's out of the closet teams aren't going to see him as a locker room positive anymore. So, no, contrary to everyone's claims this hasn't been a boon to his career, and I sincerely doubt that Collins came out of the closet because he expected to get a new contract.


----------



## LeGoat06

Idk why were still talking about this guy. Gay or not he sucks


----------



## LeGoat06

E.H. Munro said:


> That's not what he's saying. Many people made the claim that Collins came out of the closet as a way to get another NBA contract. Bogg's simple, and incredibly logical, response was "Why would a marginal NBA player whose primary value is as a locker room guy expect to extend his career by taking away one of his few selling points?"
> 
> That's what r-star is ignoring. Now that he's out of the closet teams aren't going to see him as a locker room positive anymore. So, no, contrary to everyone's claims this hasn't been a boon to his career, and I sincerely doubt that Collins came out of the closet because he expected to get a new contract.


I was initially one of the people that thought he came out to get a contract. But this post pretty much changed my mind, I never thought about him being a locker room guy


----------



## E.H. Munro

Collins entire NBA skillset these days consists of "break glass in case of emergency because he defends the post better than an undersized PF". As your third string center (i.e. a guy that might play 200 minutes a year) he's no better nor any worse than a couple of dozen other guys. I know that Rivers loved him because he was a great practise body and his teammates seem to have genuinely liked him. 

But now that he's out of the closet given the cultural attitudes on homosexuality? Yeah, that announcement was a career boost to that other couple of dozen guys.


----------



## Adam

E.H. Munro said:


> That's not what he's saying. Many people made the claim that Collins came out of the closet as a way to get another NBA contract. Bogg's simple, and incredibly logical, response was "Why would a marginal NBA player whose primary value is as a locker room guy expect to extend his career by taking away one of his few selling points?"
> 
> That's what r-star is ignoring. Now that he's out of the closet teams aren't going to see him as a locker room positive anymore. So, no, contrary to everyone's claims this hasn't been a boon to his career, and I sincerely doubt that Collins came out of the closet because he expected to get a new contract.


Maybe in his zeal to argue against that he mistook my point then because I'm not saying Collins came out to get another contract. I said he came out for the notoriety. On the subject of his being unemployed, I think it's because he isn't good enough otherwise he would have a job.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> I don't think you're a bigot. I think you read some twitter posts and internet articles that you didn't agree with and decided to come here to yell about them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Never did I say that it was okay _if_ he did cheat on her (which we don't know but seems likely), I said that "Jason Collins, perfect person" isn't what anyone reasonable is celebrating. They're excited that we're as close as we've come to having a person be comfortable being openly gay in a major American sport. Even if he never plays for another team it's significant, because it's a step forward. Going around shouting at people that it isn't news because he broke a girls' heart several years ago just lets everyone know you don't understand the conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, according to me, he was, at best, borderline in the league either way. But it's exactly that - he's borderline. It's why he's played on a series of minimum deals previous to this. If he doesn't play in the league again, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. The idea that he's declined _so drastically_ in the last year or two to go from being a reasonable option as an end-of-the-bench defender to complete catastrophe in all aspects of the game is what's wrong. I've never said that he isn't in the league because he's gay, I've said that if a team _does_ bring him in, it's not going to be because he's gay, but because he fills a particular role (the same role he's filled for five years now).
> 
> You just saw someone that disagreed with you and superimposed every twitter poster and journalist you've disagreed with over the last four or five months. It's how you wind up responding to "he's an okay deep-bench specialist and good teammate" with "*Do you honestly think NBA teams are holding out on him because hes gay? Because that's the only viable alternative to your argument.*"


Name a team that should sign him.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> That's not what he's saying. Many people made the claim that Collins came out of the closet as a way to get another NBA contract. Bogg's simple, and incredibly logical, response was "Why would a marginal NBA player whose primary value is as a locker room guy expect to extend his career by taking away one of his few selling points?"
> 
> That's what r-star is ignoring. Now that he's out of the closet teams aren't going to see him as a locker room positive anymore. So, no, contrary to everyone's claims this hasn't been a boon to his career, and I sincerely doubt that Collins came out of the closet because he expected to get a new contract.


Why does being gay take away from him being a locker room presence?

Not to mention this locker room stuff is being blown way out of proportion. He was signed in the past as a defensive backup. Not one team signed him with "Locker room presence" being their primary reason for signing him.


----------



## LeGoat06

R-Star said:


> Why does being gay take away from him being a locker room presence?
> 
> Not to mention this locker room stuff is being blown way out of proportion. He was signed in the past as a defensive backup. Not one team signed him with "Locker room presence" being their primary reason for signing him.


Because even though I hate to say it, even though a lot of these players act like they don't care about having a gay guy on the team to the public. At least 35% of them probably don't want a gay on the team.


----------



## LeGoat06

And Locker room presence a lot of the time is why backups get signed, it's not like a team is gonna come out and say o yea we only signed him because he's good with teammates


----------



## R-Star

LeGoat06 said:


> And Locker room presence a lot of the time is why backups get signed, it's not like a team is gonna come out and say o yea we only signed him because he's good with teammates


I've already named lot of great "locker room guys" who are free agents and better than Collins.

No team was going to sign him this year. Hes if anything a slow moving liability at this point.


----------



## OneBadLT123

What locker room presence has Collins been known for? Usually a "locker room presence" is somebody who at one point was really good, or average during their career that has learned the nature of the game and spotlight that can provide veteran leadership and mentor young players on skills and professionalism. Collins wasn't any of that. Dude was big, black and took up space. Thats it

What leadership can he really give? How to keep a job for a long time while not being that good at it?


----------



## R-Star

OneBadLT123 said:


> What locker room presence has Collins been known for? Usually a "locker room presence" is somebody who at one point was really good, or average during their career that has learned the nature of the game and spotlight that can provide veteran leadership and mentor young players on skills and professionalism. Collins wasn't any of that. Dude was big, black and took up space. Thats it
> 
> What leadership can he really give? How to keep a job for a long time while not being that good at it?


I tried to bring that up earlier and no one wanted to talk about it.

Collins is the kind of guy where he'd be brought in as a deep bench defensive big, and because there was absolutely nothing else you could say about his game, so they'd say "Good teammate" or "Nice locker room guy."

He's never been viewed as one of the veterans of the league signed for their leadership on the bench and in the locker room. As far as I'm concerned that's all being made up now for the sake of argument.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Adam said:


> Maybe in his zeal to argue against that he mistook my point then because I'm not saying Collins came out to get another contract. I said he came out for the notoriety. On the subject of his being unemployed, I think it's because he isn't good enough otherwise he would have a job.


There were a lot of people that said this was a transparent attempt at another contract. But the simple fact is that there are a lot of guys 6'10" and taller that can give you a few emergency minutes here or there. 

Collins one advantage was his _lack_ of notoriety and his long reputation as a steady clubhouse guy willing to do whatever you asked of him. Including sit at the end of the bench and watch games and annually lead the league in DNP-CDs. Compare that to someone like Darko who, essentially, took his marbles and went home last year because he wasn't good enough to warrant regular minutes on a playoff team. 

But due to cultural attitudes Collins has lost his one edge that kept him getting work. Now he has to compete against the rest of those "big guys that aren't dead yet" on talent alone. He _can't_ win that battle.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> There were a lot of people that said this was a transparent attempt at another contract. But the simple fact is that there are a lot of guys 6'10" and taller that can give you a few emergency minutes here or there.
> 
> Collins one advantage was his _lack_ of notoriety and his long reputation as a steady clubhouse guy willing to do whatever you asked of him. Including sit at the end of the bench and watch games and annually lead the league in DNP-CDs. Compare that to someone like Darko who, essentially, took his marbles and went home last year because he wasn't good enough to warrant regular minutes on a playoff team.
> 
> But due to cultural attitudes Collins has lost his one edge that kept him getting work. Now he has to compete against the rest of those "big guys that aren't dead yet" on talent alone. He _can't_ win that battle.


People keep saying him coming out wouldn't help him get signed at all, yet there's articles on ESPN, CNN, etc saying how everyone is baffled that no team has signed him yet. Not because hes a decent NBA player, almost every article argees he isn't good enough as a player anymore, but they take offense to him not being signed _because_ hes gay. Most articles are saying he should be signed by someone as a show of support from the NBA.

Those articles are a direct contrast to anyone saying there's no way Collins did it to get another deal. 

Like I said, I don't care if he did or didn't, but I do realize it if anything helped him if he were to get a new deal, not hurt. If he hadn't said anything he would have just faded into obscurity with no one ever saying his name again, as he was the definition of a forgettable career.


----------



## E.H. Munro

OneBadLT123 said:


> What locker room presence has Collins been known for? Usually a "locker room presence" is somebody who at one point was really good, or average during their career that has learned the nature of the game and spotlight that can provide veteran leadership and mentor young players on skills and professionalism. Collins wasn't any of that. Dude was big, black and took up space. Thats it
> 
> What leadership can he really give? How to keep a job for a long time while not being that good at it?


Because a lot of these guys have over-inflated senses of their own value. Just look at the Brazilian guy that Boston brought in to fill Collins' role this year. One of his early pronunciations was that he didn't think he'd be able to average 20/10 next year. I mean, no shit, Sherlock. 

There's more to being a net locker room positive than just being a formerly good player and taking charge. No NBA team has 12 leaders on its roster.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Because a lot of these guys have over-inflated senses of their own value. Just look at the Brazilian guy that Boston brought in to fill Collins' role this year. One of his early pronunciations was that he didn't think he'd be able to average 20/10 next year. I mean, no shit, Sherlock.
> 
> There's more to being a net locker room positive than just being a formerly good player and taking charge. No NBA team has 12 leaders on its roster.


As I said, then sign Joel Przybilla, who is a better player and is fine with a deep bench role. Same as Chris Wilcox. Take a flyer on an overseas guy. Pick up an undrafted rookie. There's plenty of guys ok with getting limited minutes on the end of a bench, all of whom are better than Jason Collins.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> People keep saying him coming out wouldn't help him get signed at all, yet there's articles on ESPN, CNN, etc saying how everyone is baffled that no team has signed him yet. Not because hes a decent NBA player, almost every article argees he isn't good enough as a player anymore, but they take offense to him not being signed _because_ hes gay. Most articles are saying he should be signed by someone as a show of support from the NBA.


Honestly I never bother with the mediots. I tend to think that Collins just wanted to make his announcement in a more timely fashion than John Ameche who waited for years post retirement. 

If anyone signs him at all it will be a midseason thing from a team down a big guy that isn't dead yet that needs an emergency body. But I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Honestly I never bother with the mediots. I tend to think that Collins just wanted to make his announcement in a more timely fashion than John Ameche who waited for years post retirement.
> 
> If anyone signs him at all it will be a midseason thing from a team down a big guy that isn't dead yet that needs an emergency body. But I'm not holding my breath.


I wouldn't be surprised. As we've seen over the years, there's always a need for bench big men halfway through the season. 

If someone like Cuban signs him though, as I originally thought would happen, I think the underlying reason is to make a statement. 

If a real team and owner who aren't concerned about the media circus sign him, its just as you said, for a deep bench big man.


----------



## Tom

I think a reality show with him and Tim Tebow would be much more entertaining.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> I wouldn't be surprised. As we've seen over the years, there's always a need for bench big men halfway through the season.


I've been away visiting a buddy in the Navy for the past few days, but this is _all_ I'm saying in regards to why a team would sign him. If/when Oden's knees go again and Miami needs a third big, if Atlanta looks they're going to get Brooklyn or Indy in the first round, if/when Brad Stevens gets tired of playing 6'7" power forwards at center, when Dallas realizes that Sam Dalembert can't play starters' minutes anymore, etc, there are a couple teams who could use a third/fourth center who won't pout if he doesn't actually play. Like EH said, that last part is very important, because absolutely no coach wants to deal with a third stringer who's going to half-ass it in practice and try to play locker room lawyer if they aren't seeing 15 minutes a night.

I actually think it's logical that nobody's signed him yet, because training camp and pre-season are when you take a swing on a risk/reward guy and see if he can hack it. With Collins, you know exactly what he's going to give you, he knows exactly what his role is going to be, and he'll probably still be on the market in a few weeks (as we're seeing now). I'm not saying that the _only_ reason he isn't in the league is because he came out, I'm saying that him being gay is far from the _only_ reason a team would be interested in him. If anything, it's going to make teams more wary of signing him, because there are a bunch of new issues you have to worry about.


----------



## LeGoat06

Tom said:


> I think a reality show with him and Tim Tebow would be much more entertaining.


They'd have to put it on HBO with the dick suckery that would go on there


----------



## Bogg

OneBadLT123 said:


> What locker room presence has Collins been known for? Usually a "locker room presence" is somebody who at one point was really good, or average during their career that has learned the nature of the game and spotlight that can provide veteran leadership and mentor young players on skills and professionalism. Collins wasn't any of that. Dude was big, black and took up space. Thats it
> 
> What leadership can he really give? How to keep a job for a long time while not being that good at it?





R-Star said:


> I tried to bring that up earlier and no one wanted to talk about it.
> 
> Collins is the kind of guy where he'd be brought in as a deep bench defensive big, and because there was absolutely nothing else you could say about his game, so they'd say "Good teammate" or "Nice locker room guy."
> 
> He's never been viewed as one of the veterans of the league signed for their leadership on the bench and in the locker room. As far as I'm concerned that's all being made up now for the sake of argument.



We have addressed this - the core assumption the idea is built on, that guys are going to just tell Collins to **** off when he starts talking because he was never an all-star is flatly wrong. That's just what it is.

“A quality, quality human being. Been in the league a long time,” Wittman said. “I think he’ll give our young guys an example and he can be an ear for them and help them understand the ups and downs of this league, being in the locker rom. And he’s a big body for us. To play against the centers that we still have to play against. Gives us another banger against those big centers.”

-That was Randy Whittman (who also coached him in Minnesota) when the Wizards traded for Collins last year, sending out notable ***hole and general idiot (although undeniably more talented) Jordan Crawford for him. When he left Boston in that trade he was credited as being a leader in the locker room. Jeff Green credited him with teaching him little things about being a professional. 

“Jason provides us with additional size and a good interior defensive presence,” Sund said. “He has extensive experience, having started in two NBA Finals with the Nets, and is another player with strong character and leadership qualities.”

-That's back when he originally signed with the Hawks a few years ago. 

The idea that people are just now making things up about Collins being a good locker room guy/leader simply isn't rooted in reality. The last _four_ teams to bring him in have all said basically the same thing. It's not like he was attached to a long-term deal and they had to pretend to want him around, they kept signing him to one-year deals in large part due to his off-the-court influence. We have proof of this. If you don't like it, too bad. You're wrong.


----------



## MojoPin

He sucks. And he has always sucked since his first day in the league. It has nothing to do with him being gay. He shouldn't be signed to a team just because he is gay, that is discriminatory. I'm surprised this thread has gone on this long. 

The Collins brothers were nothing more than guys who could come in the game and commit a bunch of fouls. Who cares if he can provide a locker room presence...so can a bunch of other guys who can actually contribute on the court.


----------



## Bogg

MojoPin said:


> He sucks. And he has always sucked since his first day in the league. It has nothing to do with him being gay. He shouldn't be signed to a team just because he is gay, that is discriminatory. I'm surprised this thread has gone on this long.
> 
> The Collins brothers were nothing more than guys who could come in the game and commit a bunch of fouls. Who cares if he can provide a locker room presence...so can a bunch of other guys who can actually contribute on the court.


Well, several GMs over the period of about a decade say you're wrong.


----------



## MojoPin

Yes, because GMs are just going to come out and say "this guy sucks". Of course they will sugarcoat the truth. The Collins brothers were guys who you could use for hack-a-Shaq, nothing more.


----------



## Bogg

MojoPin said:


> Yes, because GMs are just going to come out and say "this guy sucks". Of course they will sugarcoat the truth. The Collins brothers were guys who you could use for hack-a-Shaq, nothing more.


Well, if you're arguing that he's primarily a bench goon.....yea, that's the whole point every time he's been signed. If you're arguing that at no point did he provide a useful service, you're wrong. Interior defense is a commodity, there's a reason Kendrick Perkins has made north of $50 million over the last ten years.

EDIT: I mean....... "Daequan Cook _sucks_, all he does is shoot threes!" "Jamaal Tinsley _sucks_, all he does is handle the ball!". Yea, that's typically how it goes with specialist vets who are borderline in the league. Most of their game is sub-NBA quality, with one particular skill that makes them useful. Were you up in arms about Jason Kapono's last year in the league? Do you have strong opinions on Eric Dampier or Adonal Foyle? All those guys stuck around longer than their overall game warranted because of very narrow, very defined skill set. So did(is?) Collins. It's really not that big of a deal.


----------



## Da Grinch

jason collins at one point was useful to the point his career to the point his career .410 fg % was acceptable , but now he is even worse offensively , he shot .310 last season.

i think a GM worth his salt could find a defensive specialist who can do better than that

a nonDPOY candidate who shoots 31% from the field is no longer a viable player

if a GM wanted a coach in a uniform like juwan howard last season, that is different, but no one claims collins that level of locker room influence unfortunately his coming out probably hinders his ability to do this somewhat...unless a team feels one of its more important players is gay and needs someone to talk to.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Well, several GMs over the period of about a decade say you're wrong.


Really? How come they haven't picked him up yet then?


Jason Collins is a throw in in a trade. You have to say something when you trade a decent young player like Jordan Crawford for junk.

You're being completely delusional here. They didn't go out looking to trade for Jason Collins. He was all they could get.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Really? How come they haven't picked him up yet then?


Aside from front office people saying they don't want to deal with the media circus that's going to turn the locker room upside down the entire year(so much for coming out helping his chances of getting signed)? Because he was always going to be a "last resort" kind of guy this year, even before he came out. 

I'm not the one making a huge deal over the idea that he might play another NBA game. I've been saying, over and over, that there are reasons he got his last several contracts, and there was a very real chance that he might have seen one more at some point over the next several months. Now there's less of a chance, because coming out undermines his very real status as a good locker room guy/veteran leader, but there's still a chance.


----------



## R-Star

What office people saying they don't want to deal with the media circus?


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> What office people saying they don't want to deal with the media circus?


It was the lead on Hoopshype yesterday. Bleacher Report (yea, I know, I usually don't pay any attention to them either) had a team executive quoted basically saying that teams aren't staying away from him specifically because he's gay, but because whoever signs him is going to have a legion of reporters following them all season looking to get a player to say the wrong thing. The kind of young players (say, Demarcus Cousins or Mike Beasley) you'd want Collins to mentor on professional life are the exact same players you don't want being quoted on human sexuality a hundred times over the course of a season.


----------



## R-Star

Possible. Most teams, especially a small market team would welcome the press I would think though.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Possible. Most teams, especially a small market team would welcome the press I would think though.


Could a team at the end of a lost season bring him in on one or two 10-day contract(s) in order to get some free PR and maybe bump ticket/merch sales? Absolutely. It makes it tougher for him to find an honest, regular role on a team though; either now or mid-season when injuries and non-guaranteed contracts getting terminated open up roster spots.


----------



## R-Star

I honestly don't think hes good enough to play anymore to begin with, but we don't seem like we're going to agree there.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> *I honestly don't think hes good enough to play anymore to begin with*, but we don't seem like we're going to agree there.


I honestly don't have a problem with a stripped-down statement like that, because on pure talent alone it's true. I think he does one or two specific things well enough that, combined with his team-first attitude and positive locker room presence, he _may_ have made sense for some teams this year. It's entirely possible that last year was the year he declined enough that the off-court positives were outweighed by the on-court negatives, however. He was definitely never a lock to be in the league this year, but I just don't think he was a lock to be out of it. I'm fine with disagreeing and leaving it at that. 

It's some of the more sweeping statements and the idea that coming out would help his basketball career I didn't agree with.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> As far as him cheating on his fiance, that's only part of the issue. The other part is that he wasted her life, lying to her about his sexuality. She'll probably never have kids now according to her. Its not the same as another NBA player picking up a groupie. *And yes, I would view Paul George in a bad light if he had a wife and cheated on her.* That isn't why I made my argument though.


http://www.sportsworldnews.com/articles/9213/20140205/paul-george-baby-mama-a-stripper-photos-pacers-star-cheated-on-doc-rivers-daughter-offered-exotic-dancer-1-million-dollars-to-abort-child-video.htm



> [Paul] George is dating Callie Rivers, the daughter of Clippers head coach Doc Rivers, but reports have broken that George may have fathered a child with a Miami stripper named "Daniela" and offered her $1 million to abort the baby. Daniela appears to have turned down George's offer, and has instead begun uploading pictures of herself and her pregnant body.


So....he wasn't engaged to his girlfriend, like Collins was, but he _did_ offer her the veteran's minimum to "take care of it". I'm not sure if you'll find that better or worse. Since you have a kid, I assume worse.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Paul George is a flopping scumbag of a pussy! I'm ashamed he's from LA.


----------



## Marcus13

Paul's next game against the Pelicans should be fun lol


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> http://www.sportsworldnews.com/articles/9213/20140205/paul-george-baby-mama-a-stripper-photos-pacers-star-cheated-on-doc-rivers-daughter-offered-exotic-dancer-1-million-dollars-to-abort-child-video.htm
> 
> 
> 
> So....he wasn't engaged to his girlfriend, like Collins was, but he _did_ offer her the veteran's minimum to "take care of it". I'm not sure if you'll find that better or worse. Since you have a kid, I assume worse.


I'll wait until I see what comes of this. I'm not against abortion if its used in accidental cases and not a form of birth control. 

Cheating on a girlfriend though? No, that is not the same as cheating on someone you're married or engaged to.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> I'll wait until I see what comes of this. I'm not against abortion if its used in accidental cases and not a form of birth control.
> 
> Cheating on a girlfriend though? No, that is not the same as cheating on someone you're married or engaged to.


So, again, is this better worse, given that he wanted to abort the baby because it was inconvenient?

For the record, we don't have any confirmation that Collins ever actually cheated on his fiancee. Just the assumption that he did because he was a gay man dating a woman.

But hey, maybe it'll come out that she made the whole thing up. I've got no vendetta against George or the Pacers, so I'd actually be a little happy to hear that.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> So, again, is this better worse, given that he wanted to abort the baby because it was inconvenient?
> 
> For the record, we don't have any confirmation that Collins ever actually cheated on his fiancee. Just the assumption that he did because he was a gay man dating a woman.
> 
> But hey, maybe it'll come out that she made the whole thing up. I've got no vendetta against George or the Pacers, so I'd actually be a little happy to hear that.


Again, I don't fault someone if they're aborting a child with some skeezy stripper slut. I'd prefer if a skank aborted rather than used it as a pay check.

Better or worse than Collins? I don't know. I want to say equal, but at the same time Collins wasted a womans prime, while George just cheated on his girlfriend. 

No, that's not really equal when I think of it. Collins story is pretty much all but forgotten now though, and George is going to be paying for this financially for at least the next 18 years.

In a situation like this all you can hope is he mans up, and hopefully takes custody of the kid. I don't care what anyone says, a stripper is not a fit mother for any child.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Again, I don't fault someone if they're aborting a child with some skeezy stripper slut. I'd prefer if a skank aborted rather than used it as a pay check.
> 
> Better or worse than Collins? I don't know. I want to say equal, but at the same time Collins wasted a womans prime, while George just cheated on his girlfriend.
> 
> No, that's not really equal when I think of it. Collins story is pretty much all but forgotten now though, and George is going to be paying for this financially for at least the next 18 years.
> 
> In a situation like this all you can hope is he mans up, and hopefully takes custody of the kid. I don't care what anyone says, a stripper is not a fit mother for any child.



Fair enough. Abortions of convenience it is.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Fair enough. Abortions of convenience it is.


I think in situations like these they're worth consideration. My issue with abortions is when people use them multiple times.

If someone who understands they have no means of supporting a child comes in for an abortion and its their first time getting one, should they really be turned away, is it better to just have the kid anyways even though its probably going to have a terrible life?

Now if that same person turned out to have had 5 previous abortions? I argue they should be sterilized.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> If someone who understands they *have no means of supporting a child* comes in for an abortion and its their first time getting one, should they really be turned away, is it better to just have the kid anyways even though its probably going to have a terrible life?


Paul George makes eight figures a year _in Indiana_.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Paul George makes eight figures a year _in Indiana_.


Which means shes keeping the child for monetary reasons. In which case I would again argue someone like that should have an abortion.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Which means shes keeping the child for monetary reasons. In which case I would again argue someone like that should have an abortion.


Fair enough. At least he didn't date her for a long time without marrying her.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Fair enough. At least he didn't date her for a long time without marrying her.


I'm sorry, are we saying dating is the same as engagement now?


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> I'm sorry, are we saying dating is the same as engagement now?


Well, is your core issue with Collins that he broke off an engagement or that he waited as long as he did to end the relationship? I'm under the impression you're more upset that the girl spent most of her twenties dating Collins.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Well, is your core issue with Collins that he broke off an engagement or that he waited as long as he did to end the relationship? *I'm under the impression you're more upset that the girl spent most of her twenties dating Collins.*


That is the main issue, yes. She wasted her prime years with a man who told her he wanted to marry her and spend the rest of his life together. 

He knew the whole time that wasn't the case.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> That is the main issue, yes. She wasted her prime years with a man who told her he wanted to marry her and spend the rest of his life together.
> 
> He knew the whole time that wasn't the case.


Well, a major part of Collins' story was him not admitting to himself that he was gay until relatively recently, but let's not let that get in the way of a good narrative. Like I said, sure George tried to get the baby aborted so he wouldn't get caught cheating, but at least he didn't date the girl for a long time. That would be terrible. 

Also, as long as it's fair to assume the woman George got pregnant is a terrible person, is it fair to assume that the center of the Stanford women's basketball team wouldn't have started dating Collins in the first place if he was 5'10" chemistry major instead of a star basketball player and impending first-round NBA draft pick?


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Well, a major part of Collins' story was him not admitting to himself that he was gay until relatively recently, but let's not let that get in the way of a good narrative. Like I said, sure George tried to get the baby aborted so he wouldn't get caught cheating, but at least he didn't date the girl for a long time. That would be terrible.
> 
> *Also, as long as it's fair to assume the woman George got pregnant is a terrible person, is it fair to assume that the center of the Stanford women's basketball team wouldn't have started dating Collins in the first place if he was 5'10" chemistry major instead of a star basketball player and impending first-round NBA draft pick?*


So, now we're also comparing a women who played college basketball to a stripper who was sleeping around?

And Collins didn't admit it to himself? Oh ok. He probably had no clue then. Get real. You're really reaching now.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> So, now we're also comparing a women who played college basketball to a stripper who was sleeping around?


Being an athlete exempts her from feeling attraction based on status and money?



R-Star said:


> And Collins didn't admit it to himself? Oh ok. He probably had no clue then. Get real. You're really reaching now.


Not to go down this rabbit hole with you again, but the whole point of the Collins story was trying to make it so people didn't have to repeat his experience and mistakes in the future, not that he's a flawless hero who should be given a max contract simply for telling the truth. 

You decided to be the guy that posts "He's a rapist!" in a thread about Kobe's HOF candidacy. Sure, it's tangentially related to the topic, but nobody's having that discussion. So, to re-visit my original question, do you now view Paul George in a negative light?


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Being an athlete exempts her from feeling attraction based on status and money?
> 
> 
> 
> Not to go down this rabbit hole with you again, but the whole point of the Collins story was trying to make it so people didn't have to repeat his experience and mistakes in the future, not that he's a flawless hero who should be given a max contract simply for telling the truth.
> 
> You decided to be the guy that posts *"He's a rapist!" *in a thread about Kobe's HOF candidacy. Sure, it's tangentially related to the topic, but nobody's having that discussion. So, to re-visit my original question, do you now view Paul George in a negative light?


Did I really? Or did I state the woman had a very sketchy past going into the whole thing? You should probably go back and check on that before going any further with that Bogg. I think your memory is quite fuzzy here. 

And make it so that people don't have to repeat what experience that Collins had? He was gay in the NBA, big deal. I don't care that he's gay, the NBA outside the statistical Hardaways that must exist don't care either. 

This was a story for media's sake. That's all it ever was.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Did I really? Or did I state the woman had a very sketchy past going into the whole thing? You should probably go back and check on that before going any further with that Bogg. I think your memory is quite fuzzy here.


I'm talking about Collins coming out as gay. Everyone was talking about how it would effect the perception of homosexuals, particularly whether it would lead to additional professional athletes coming out and how/whether that would affect everyday people, and you came in shouting about what a shitbag he is for dating that girl for so long. Yea, sure, it's a terrible situation for her, but that's not why this is newsworthy.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> I'm talking about Collins coming out as gay. Everyone was talking about how it would effect the perception of homosexuals, particularly whether it would lead to additional professional athletes coming out and how/whether that would affect everyday people, and you came in shouting about what a shitbag he is for dating that girl for so long. Yea, sure, it's a terrible situation for her, but that's not why this is newsworthy.


So its not worth discussing? We should discuss how a man being gay and telling people about it (after he magically finally realized he was right at the end according to you) is a huge deal?

Again, I don't see how being gay is news worthy. I'm not glad, mad, or anything about him being gay. I'm indifferent. I could care less about someones sexual preference.

If he turns this into speaking out and helping young kids and adults deal with their confusion and dealing/coping with the biggots that are out there, great. I'll change my stance on it at that time. I really hope that ends up happening.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> So its not worth discussing? We should discuss how a man being gay and telling people about it (after he magically finally realized he was right at the end according to you) is a huge deal?
> 
> Again, I don't see how being gay is news worthy. I'm not glad, mad, or anything about him being gay. I'm indifferent. I could care less about someones sexual preference.


Not interesting to you in particular and not newsworthy are two different things. I, personally, have no interest in professional hockey, but I don't go around bitching about people watching the Stanley Cup. Gay rights is a huge issue in America right now, and I'm reasonably sure you're aware of that. Someone attempting to be the first openly gay professional athlete (soccer doesn't count) in America is newsworthy. 



R-Star said:


> If he turns this into speaking out and helping young kids and adults deal with their confusion and dealing/coping with the biggots that are out there, great. I'll change my stance on it at that time. I really hope that ends up happening.


He's already done a bit of this, but he isn't broadcasting it because he doesn't want to hurt his chances of playing in the league one more time any further.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Not interesting to you in particular and not newsworthy are two different things. *I, personally, have no interest in* professional hockey, but I don't go around bitching about people watching the Stanley Cup. Gay rights is a huge issue in America right now, and I'm reasonably sure you're aware of that. Someone attempting to be the first openly gay professional athlete *(soccer doesn't count)* in America is newsworthy.
> 
> 
> 
> He's already done a bit of this, but he isn't broadcasting it because he doesn't want to hurt his chances of playing in the league one more time any further.


Why? And why does John Amechi not count now either?

You seem to only want to show interest in things that help your side of the discussion, and ignore glaring ones that don't.


How the hell is saying you don't like hockey comparable to me saying I don't care if an athlete (who was clearly, and I mean extremely clearly not going to get signed by anyone) is gay?


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Not interesting to you in particular and not newsworthy are two different things. I, personally, have no interest in professional hockey, but I don't go around bitching about people watching the Stanley Cup. Gay rights is a huge issue in America right now, and I'm reasonably sure you're aware of that. Someone attempting to be the first openly gay professional athlete (soccer doesn't count) in America is newsworthy.
> 
> 
> 
> *He's already done a bit of this, but he isn't broadcasting it because he doesn't want to hurt his chances of playing in the league one more time any further.*


You're ****ing kidding me right? If he comes out and tries to promote gay rights, the league will shun him?

Let me explain this to you one last time. There is 0 chance of Jason Collins ever playing in the league again. _EVER_. There was 0 chance before he came out, there was a small chance after as a publicity stunt signing. 

Greg Oden has been signed and is getting praised for averaging 3 and 2. 
Andrew Bynum was traded, waived and has now been signed by a team with absolutely no use for him. 

Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player. Horrendous even. He has no offensive talent to mention, and is far too slow and sluggish laterally for his superior defense you guys like to tout to be of any use. 

For the love of god, quit acting like hes not in the NBA because hes gay. Hes not in the NBA because hes one of the worst big men we've seen in quite some time, and has 0 place there now that teams don't stock pile hack a shack 7 foot stiffs on the bench.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> You're ****ing kidding me right? If he comes out and tries to promote gay rights, the league will shun him?


Well, not for the reasons you're thinking, but yes. The press has front office staff saying they don't want to deal with the media circus that's going to follow any Jason Collins signing, as well as the inevitable stirring-the-pot activist trying to goad a player into saying something homophobic. Jason Collins stopped being a steady veteran who was a good locker room influence when he came out as gay and started being a distraction, even though it's no fault of his own. You can rant and rave about it all you'd like, but yes, being gay hurts his chances of landing a contract, and the more vocal and higher-profile he is now, the bigger the distraction he'll be if someone does sign him.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Well, not for the reasons you're thinking, but yes. The press has front office staff saying they don't want to deal with the media circus that's going to follow any Jason Collins signing, as well as the inevitable stirring-the-pot activist trying to goad a player into saying something homophobic. Jason Collins stopped being a steady veteran who was a good locker room influence when he came out as gay and started being a distraction, even though it's no fault of his own. You can rant and rave about it all you'd like, but yes, being gay hurts his chances of landing a contract, and the more vocal and higher-profile he is now, the bigger the distraction he'll be if someone does sign him.


First, who are these front office staff? Can you post a link? Let me guess, they're anonymous right? Sounds like a credible story to me. "Lebron James to the Lakers this offseason. Insider says from anonymous source" CLICK THE LINK!

Second, steady veteran? He stinks. Please do not try to paint him as a quality veteran. For a verteran presence why not just sign Juwan Howard then? Who has actual championship experience and is a better player? Why not Kurt Thomas?

Hey, here's fellow former gay NBA player John Amaechi saying he doesn't think being gay has anything to do with Collins not getting signed. Its because hes old and not any good. 

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10300409/john-amaechi-says-jason-collins-limited-age-not-sexuality

*Collins' time is up, with the Stanford graduate averaging a mere 0.7 points and 1.3 rebounds in his brief Wizards stint.*

He sucks Bogg. There is no argument to that. And no, no one signs a guy as terrible as Collins as a "locker room presence"

If you ever mention locker room presence again in this thread, I want you to name me 10 current "locker room presence" players. Hell, name me 5 even. I wonder how many of them are averaging 0.7 and 1.3.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> First, who are these front office staff? Can you post a link? Let me guess, they're anonymous right? Sounds like a credible story to me. "Lebron James to the Lakers this offseason. Insider says from anonymous source" CLICK THE LINK!
> 
> Second, steady veteran? He stinks. Please do not try to paint him as a quality veteran. For a verteran presence why not just sign Juwan Howard then? Who has actual championship experience and is a better player? Why not Kurt Thomas?
> 
> Hey, here's fellow former gay NBA player John Amaechi saying he doesn't think being gay has anything to do with Collins not getting signed. Its because hes old and not any good.
> 
> http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10300409/john-amaechi-says-jason-collins-limited-age-not-sexuality
> 
> *Collins' time is up, with the Stanford graduate averaging a mere 0.7 points and 1.3 rebounds in his brief Wizards stint.*
> 
> He sucks Bogg. There is no argument to that. And no, no one signs a guy as terrible as Collins as a "locker room presence"
> 
> If you ever mention locker room presence again in this thread, I want you to name me 10 current "locker room presence" players. Hell, name me 5 even. I wonder how many of them are averaging 0.7 and 1.3.


There's _pages_ in this thread of us doing this. I post quotes about him being a leader in the locker room or young guys saying he was a great influence, you say they're just being polite and making stuff up. I provide a link where an anonymous GM says they don't want to deal with the media, you claim the writer made it up. I name other guys on rosters over the last five years signed to essentially wear a suit and be a good influence, and you find a reason that those guys are different. I point out that he's actually useful if you're looking at having to deal with Hibbert, or Howard, or a Gasol, or Duncan, and you disagree. I'm not doing this again. 

Collins may or may not have had another couple ten-day contracts left in him or one more sit the bench in the playoffs in case of emergency type role. Coming out as gay hurt those chances because he's now more of a distraction than he's worth. It's not because he's gay, it's because the media are going to make life unbearable for his teammates.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> There's _pages_ in this thread of us doing this. I post quotes about him being a leader in the locker room or young guys saying he was a great influence, you say they're just being polite and making stuff up. I provide a link where an anonymous GM says they don't want to deal with the media, you claim the writer made it up. I name other guys on rosters over the last five years signed to essentially wear a suit and be a good influence, and you find a reason that those guys are different. I point out that he's actually useful if you're looking at having to deal with Hibbert, or Howard, or a Gasol, or Duncan, and you disagree. I'm not doing this again.
> 
> Collins may or may not have had another couple ten-day contracts left in him or one more sit the bench in the playoffs in case of emergency type role. Coming out as gay hurt those chances because he's now more of a distraction than he's worth. It's not because he's gay, it's because the media are going to make life unbearable for his teammates.


Helpful dealing with Hibbert, Howard, Gasol or Duncan? They'd eat him alive Bogg. That's the issue. You have a completely false view of him as a player. There isn't a starting center in the league who wouldn't get more touches as soon as they saw Collins come in. 

Former Wizard players can say all the good things in the world about Collins as a person. It doesn't change the fact hes worse than any player in the league currently, nor the fact that quiet nice guy isn't the kind of guy who gets signed as a locker room presence. You sign a Juwan Howard, Kurt Thomas (yes, I'm getting tired of typing their names as much as you are reading them), Charles Oakley type guy who's going to keep the players in line. Not a soft spoken, "Hey guys, can we just chat a minute about that last play" type of dude. 

And how exactly would the media make things unbearable?

"Hey, you guys just signed Jason Collins. How do you feel"
"Glad to have him, hes a great guy. I think he'll really help our bench, and I'm glad to have a guy like him in the locker room."
"You know hes gay right?"
"Yea..... so?"

I mean what are you seeing here? No ones even talking about Collins anymore. If someone signed him to a 10 day contract the media will mention it for a couple days, and move on. You know that, I know that. 

Jason Collins knows that. So lets quit pretending he's sitting at home all torn up about not being able to do all these amazing things to help the gay community, but is afraid to because the big bad NBA and media will alienate him from his return to the league.

I'll say again, 0.7ppg and 1.3rpg with the Wizards. No ones signing that.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Helpful dealing with Hibbert, Howard, Gasol or Duncan? They'd eat him alive Bogg. That's the issue. You have a completely false view of him as a player. There isn't a starting center in the league who wouldn't get more touches as soon as they saw Collins come in.
> 
> Former Wizard players can say all the good things in the world about Collins as a person. It doesn't change the fact hes worse than any player in the league currently, nor the fact that quiet nice guy isn't the kind of guy who gets signed as a locker room presence. You sign a Juwan Howard, Kurt Thomas (yes, I'm getting tired of typing their names as much as you are reading them), Charles Oakley type guy who's going to keep the players in line. Not a soft spoken, "Hey guys, can we just chat a minute about that last play" type of dude.
> 
> And how exactly would the media make things unbearable?
> 
> "Hey, you guys just signed Jason Collins. How do you feel"
> "Glad to have him, hes a great guy. I think he'll really help our bench, and I'm glad to have a guy like him in the locker room."
> "You know hes gay right?"
> "Yea..... so?"
> 
> I mean what are you seeing here? No ones even talking about Collins anymore. If someone signed him to a 10 day contract the media will mention it for a couple days, and move on. You know that, I know that.
> 
> Jason Collins knows that. So lets quit pretending he's sitting at home all torn up about not being able to do all these amazing things to help the gay community, but is afraid to because the big bad NBA and media will alienate him from his return to the league.
> 
> I'll say again, 0.7ppg and 1.3rpg with the Wizards. No ones signing that.


As I said, I'm not doing this. You've made up your mind, and any evidence to the contrary gets brushed aside because it doesn't fit the narrative. I'm glad you don't have any issue with Paul George.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> As I said, I'm not doing this. You've made up your mind, and any evidence to the contrary gets brushed aside because it doesn't fit the narrative. I'm glad you don't have any issue with Paul George.


I've said I have a big issue with Paul George. He isn't the guy off the court I thought he was. As a player I'm thrilled hes on the Pacers, but as a person I'll reserve judgement until more comes out. Before today I thought he was a great guy so much has changed. 

I've also taken your "evidence" and commented on it. 

"Hes a locker room presence" - Great. There's lots of those guys sitting around.

"He would help against Hibbert and Dwight Howard!" - No he wouldn't. Why did Miami just dump Joel Anthony? Is Anthony not a way better help against Hibbert or Dwight type of guy?

I accuse you of only paying attention to "evidence" you like, and your tactic is to turn around and say "No that's you!" Really? I quote answers to your posts. If you bring something up you see as a point, I discuss it. You on the other hand just refuse to talk about things. 

Why won't you talk about his stats? What team right now could use a guy averaging 0.7ppg and 1.3rpg?

Why don't you let me know what team could use a soft spoken nice guy taking up a roster spot as locker room presence?

Why not tell me how exactly the media is going to make life a living hell for any team and teammate that decides they'll sign Collins?


Come on man.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> I've said I have a big issue with Paul George. He isn't the guy off the court I thought he was. As a player I'm thrilled hes on the Pacers, but as a person I'll reserve judgement until more comes out. Before today I thought he was a great guy so much has changed.
> 
> I've also taken your "evidence" and commented on it.
> 
> "Hes a locker room presence" - Great. There's lots of those guys sitting around.
> 
> "He would help against Hibbert and Dwight Howard!" - No he wouldn't. Why did Miami just dump Joel Anthony? Is Anthony not a way better help against Hibbert or Dwight type of guy?
> 
> I accuse you of only paying attention to "evidence" you like, and your tactic is to turn around and say "No that's you!" Really? I quote answers to your posts. If you bring something up you see as a point, I discuss it. You on the other hand just refuse to talk about things.
> 
> Why won't you talk about his stats? What team right now could use a guy averaging 0.7ppg and 1.3rpg?
> 
> Why don't you let me know what team could use a soft spoken nice guy taking up a roster spot as locker room presence?
> 
> Why not tell me how exactly the media is going to make life a living hell for any team and teammate that decides they'll sign Collins?
> 
> 
> Come on man.


Because we've already gone over all that, pages ago, and I'm tired of being asked to defend a position I haven't taken. What I said was that he may have been completely done in the NBA regardless, or he may have had one more opportunity, be it simply a training camp invite, a 10-day contract, or a seat at the end of the bench in a suit. Either way, coming out as gay certainly isn't helping him get another job in the NBA (the contention I was initially taking exception to). You've turned that into "NBA GMs are raging homophobes. Jason Collins is a solid role-player and the _only_ reason he's not in the NBA is because he's gay!" I'm not playing your game anymore.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Because we've already gone over all that, pages ago, and I'm tired of being asked to defend a position I haven't taken. What I said was that he may have been completely done in the NBA regardless, or he may have had one more opportunity, be it simply a training camp invite, a 10-day contract, or a seat at the end of the bench in a suit. Either way, coming out as gay certainly isn't helping him get another job in the NBA (the contention I was initially taking exception to). You've turned that into "NBA GMs are raging homophobes. Jason Collins is a solid role-player and the _only_ reason he's not in the NBA is because he's gay!" I'm not playing your game anymore.


Go back and just read the last 5 posts or so. In them you've said he would be a great help against Hibbert and Howard, and that he's a "steady veteran". 


Pick a side to the argument and stick to it. Don't try to argue he should be signed to help against the leagues top centers, call him a steady vet, and then completely collapse and change your opinion to "well he probably wouldn't have got a call from anyone, but I'm saying he may have if he didn't come out and say he was gay." as soon as I bring up counter points. 

That's not me twisting your stance Bogg. You word for word said those things in the last few posts. My mentioning of 0.7ppg, 1.3rpg, and the fact Miami just cost cut Joel Anthony who is a hell of a lot better Hibbert/Howard contingent has you all of the sudden completely changing what you said in the last few posts.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Go back and just read the last 5 posts or so. In them you've said he would be a great help against Hibbert and Howard, and that he's a "steady veteran".


I said he'd be useful - in a break glass in case of emergency kind of way. There's a whole hell of a lot of room between "can give you five good minutes in one game" and "will shut down an all-star over a series". The steady veteran comment is in line with everything I've said the entire thread - you can park him at the end of the bench, never play him, and he won't hurt your team chemistry. 




R-Star said:


> Pick a side to the argument and stick to it. Don't try to argue he should be signed to help against the leagues top centers, call him a steady vet, and then completely collapse and change your opinion to "well he probably wouldn't have got a call from anyone, but I'm saying he may have if he didn't come out and say he was gay." as soon as I bring up counter points.


I've been consistent the entire thread - he can be helpful in very specific situations. That may have gotten him one last look, it may not have been enough. I'm not going to take responsibility if you're confusing the arguments I've made and the arguments you wanted me to be making. 



R-Star said:


> That's not me twisting your stance Bogg. You word for word said those things in the last few posts.


I haven't changed a thing. I can bump posts from months ago saying exactly what I'm saying now. You took "steady veteran" and ran all the way to "shut-down defender" with it. Not my fault. 




R-Star said:


> My mentioning of 0.7ppg, 1.3rpg, and the fact Miami just cost cut Joel Anthony who is a hell of a lot better Hibbert/Howard contingent has you all of the sudden completely changing what you said in the last few posts.


I mean, you're really counting the three games where he basically checked in for a minute at the end of the game and didn't record any stats? He had three games in Washington where he actually played, and did exactly what you'd expect him to do - grab a couple rebounds, commit a _bunch_ of fouls, block the odd shot, and maybe get a bucket. I don't know if rebound percentage is enough of an advanced stat to send you off the deep end, but he grabbed roughly the same percentage of rebounds last season that he has every year since leaving New Jersey. As far as Joel Anthony goes - we've seen that he's absolutely worthless against big centers because he's only 6'7", and he was costing Miami $9 million a year. Of course they dumped him. 

All of this is largely besides the point, though, because he was at best on the very fringe of the league. This whole argument arose from my claim that the idea that he'd come out as gay to get a contract makes zero sense.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> I said he'd be useful - in a break glass in case of emergency kind of way. There's a whole hell of a lot of room between "can give you five good minutes in one game" and "will shut down an all-star over a series". The steady veteran comment is in line with everything I've said the entire thread - you can park him at the end of the bench, never play him, and he won't hurt your team chemistry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been consistent the entire thread - he can be helpful in very specific situations. That may have gotten him one last look, it may not have been enough. I'm not going to take responsibility if you're confusing the arguments I've made and the arguments you wanted me to be making.
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't changed a thing. I can bump posts from months ago saying exactly what I'm saying now. You took "steady veteran" and ran all the way to "shut-down defender" with it. Not my fault.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, you're really counting the three games where he basically checked in for a minute at the end of the game and didn't record any stats? He had three games in Washington where he actually played, and did exactly what you'd expect him to do - grab a couple rebounds, commit a _bunch_ of fouls, block the odd shot, and maybe get a bucket. I don't know if rebound percentage is enough of an advanced stat to send you off the deep end, but he grabbed roughly the same percentage of rebounds last season that he has every year since leaving New Jersey. As far as Joel Anthony goes - we've seen that he's absolutely worthless against big centers because he's only 6'7", and he was costing Miami $9 million a year. Of course they dumped him.
> 
> *All of this is largely besides the point, though,* because he was at best on the very fringe of the league. This whole argument arose from my claim that the idea that he'd come out as gay to get a contract makes zero sense.


Hold on a minute here. Aren't you the one who just bumped the thread in an attempt to call me out?


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Hold on a minute here. Aren't you the one who just bumped the thread in an attempt to call me out?


Yes, but not about anything to do with Jason Collins' on-court production. Just wanted to know what your reaction was to Paul George's situation, but I think at this point we've completely covered that.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Yes, but not about anything to do with Jason Collins' on-court production. Just wanted to know what your reaction was to Paul George's situation, but I think at this point we've completely covered that.


I don't think you really understand my take on George right now. 

Its still sinking in, but I'm extremely let down. Going from title favorites to signing Bynum and now this with George, the last week or so in Pacers news has really taken my enjoyment out of this season.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> I don't think you really understand my take on George right now.
> 
> Its still sinking in, but I'm extremely let down. Going from title favorites to signing Bynum and now this with George, the last week or so in Pacers news has really taken my enjoyment out of this season.


Eh, I wouldn't get too caught up in it, not many of these guys are going to win humanitarian of the year anyway. Take it from someone who spent the last several years with KG on his favorite team - separating the players' antics from the actual basketball they play will make games much more enjoyable.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Eh, I wouldn't get too caught up in it, not many of these guys are going to win humanitarian of the year anyway. Take it from someone who spent the last several years with KG on his favorite team - separating the players' antics from the actual basketball they play will make games much more enjoyable.


Oh yea, I know. I'm not crying about it or anything. Just upsetting. A week or so ago the Pacers were where I've been waiting over a decade to see them. Now they signed a player I've hated on for years, and Paul George is caught up in some sketchy nonsense. If it were a throwaway season I wouldn't care, but its just unneeded headaches that could throw them off the title chase.


----------



## PauloCatarino

R-Star said:


> Oh yea, I know. I'm not crying about it or anything. Just upsetting. A week or so ago the Pacers were where I've been waiting over a decade to see them. Now they signed a player I've hated on for years, and Paul George is caught up in some sketchy nonsense. If it were a throwaway season I wouldn't care, but its just unneeded headaches that could throw them off the title chase.


And to make things worse for you, you probably gonna lose Stephenson:



> The Los Angeles Lakers will have a considerable amount of cap space this summer and might be considering making a play at some of the bigger names on the open market. One that has surfaced as a potential target is Lance Stephenson according to Sean Deveney of Sporting News:
> 
> The Lakers, Bulls and Bobcats will be among the teams who can and would offer an ample payday and increased opportunity for Stephenson this summer.


http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-rumors-lakers-interested-in-signing-lance-stephenson/2014/02/06/

What the Lakers want, the Lakers get!


----------



## R-Star

PauloCatarino said:


> And to make things worse for you, you probably gonna lose Stephenson:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-rumors-lakers-interested-in-signing-lance-stephenson/2014/02/06/
> 
> What the Lakers want, the Lakers get!


Lance loves the Pacers. If you're willing to overpay him, then sure, enjoy. If the offers are similar? Good luck with that.


----------



## Bogg

If the bidding for Lance gets out of hand ($12-ish million a year) the Pacers still have options. A sign-and-trade that nets Indy back someone like Gerald Henderson or Arron Afflalo still gives them a good two-way shooting guard that they can plug into the roster at an affordable cost. Hell, even the Lakers could build something around Jodie Meeks, who's a pretty good floor-spacing guard that would give George and Hibbert plenty of room to work.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> If the bidding for Lance gets out of hand ($12-ish million a year) the Pacers still have options. A sign-and-trade that nets Indy back someone like Gerald Henderson or Arron Afflalo still gives them a good two-way shooting guard that they can plug into the roster at an affordable cost. Hell, even the Lakers could build something around Jodie Meeks, who's a pretty good floor-spacing guard that would give George and Hibbert plenty of room to work.


Sweet lord would I not hear the end of that one. Bynum AND Jodie Meeks?

All we need to do is trade for JR Smith and Hibbert for Howard.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> Sweet lord would I not hear the end of that one. Bynum AND Jodie Meeks?
> 
> All we need to do is trade for JR Smith and Hibbert for Howard.


Andy Bynum, Dwight Howard and JR Smith around Paul George? Under their tutelage he might have 20 kids within a year's time.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Andy Bynum, Dwight Howard and JR Smith around Paul George? Under their tutelage he might have 20 kids within a year's time.


Only if its all with different stripper's do I approve.


----------



## R-Star

We'll see what happens with Michael Sam at the draft, but I think its going to be pretty clear a lot of people overrated the affect of coming out gay will have against someones career.

This will be a non story a week or so after hes drafted, and will occasionally be brought up periodically when ESPN or someone else decides they need a fluff piece about his heartwarming journey.


----------



## Jamel Irief

R-Star said:


> We'll see what happens with Michael Sam at the draft, but I think its going to be pretty clear a lot of people overrated the affect of coming out gay will have against someones career.
> 
> This will be a non story a week or so after hes drafted, and will occasionally be brought up periodically when ESPN or someone else decides they need a fluff piece about his heartwarming journey.


Who is Michael Sam? Was he even slated to be drafted?


----------



## E.H. Munro

Jamel Irief said:


> Who is Michael Sam? Was he even slated to be drafted?


SEC defensive player of the year, DE/OLB. He's consistently been at the tail end of most top 100 lists. Prior to the announcement I've normally seen him listed in the 3rd/4th rounds in mock drafts.


----------



## Jamel Irief

E.H. Munro said:


> SEC defensive player of the year, DE/OLB. He's consistently been at the tail end of most top 100 lists. Prior to the announcement I've normally seen him listed in the 3rd/4th rounds in mock drafts.


nevermind, assumed he was a basketball player


----------



## hobojoe

> There is growing sentiment within the Brooklyn Nets' organization to move quickly to sign Jason Collins to a 10-day contract if they are spurned by free agent-to-be Glen Davis, according to sources with knowledge of the situation.
> 
> Sources told ESPN.com that the Nets -- who have made Davis their top frontcourt target -- still intend to make a signing soon if they can't convince Davis to choose them over the Los Angeles Clippers.


..


----------



## R-Star

I think if they do sign him people will quickly see its a non story. The whole media circus people were alluding to won't be more than a week or two of the media saying how progressive the NBA and Nets are.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> I think if they do sign him people will quickly see its a non story. The whole media circus people were alluding to won't be more than a week or two of the media saying how progressive the NBA and Nets are.


That's the hope. Best thing that could happen would be Collins unassumingly sitting the bench and the general reaction being "Huh, a gay guy did sports without trying to have sex with any of his teammates afterward. Imagine that!" The Nets are a good locker room for him to join - a bunch of those guys played with him at one point or another previously and like him, and the veterans all know how to handle the media.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> That's the hope. Best thing that could happen would be Collins unassumingly sitting the bench and the general reaction being "Huh, a gay guy did sports without trying to have sex with any of his teammates afterward. Imagine that!" The Nets are a good locker room for him to join - a bunch of those guys played with him at one point or another previously and like him, and the veterans all know how to handle the media.


Yep. As soon as its a non story, that's when we've actually taken a step forward.

Media loves being, well, dirtbag media though, so we'll see.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Yep. As soon as its a non story, that's when we've actually taken a step forward.
> 
> Media loves being, well, dirtbag media though, so we'll see.


I don't think you can really call it a non-story when the Suns' state legislature is passing laws that allow business to discriminate against gay people, but I agree that it shouldn't have to be this big of a story.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> I don't think you can really call it a non-story when the Suns' state legislature is passing laws that allow business to discriminate against gay people, but I agree that it shouldn't have to be this big of a story.


I don't think anyone believes the idea of banning gays from a business has any chance of flying these days.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> I don't think anyone believes the idea of banning gays from a business has any chance of flying these days.


No, the courts will strike it down, but it says a lot that the law gets passed and makes it all the way to the governor. There's enough people out there who feel a particular way about this issue that it's more than just the media making something out of nothing to have something to talk about.


----------



## Basel

He's meeting with the Nets in a few hours and is expected to sign a 10-day contract. The media will be all over this today.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

Good for him and it sends a positive message.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Swagger is also back for the lakers tonight. This could be trouble for a gay man.


----------



## Bogg

Jamel Irief said:


> Swagger is also back for the lakers tonight. This could be trouble for a gay *any* man.


You underestimate his powers.


----------



## R-Star

Hopefully this will finally give Richard Jefferson the confidence to come out and tell everyone what they already knew. 

You're gay RJ, big deal.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Bogg said:


> You underestimate his powers.


True. My wife watches laker games with me about once a week. At the beginning of the year I kept joking about having a 3some with her and Jamie Maggio, the lakers studio girl with a huge ass. Slowly though I've been replacing Jamie with swagger in my fantasies.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

Jaime Maggio's ass tho...

:breezy:


----------



## Bogg

So do I get to do a round of obnoxious "I-told-you-so"s, or are we going with "he was only signed because he's gay"?


----------



## Adam

Bogg said:


> So do I get to do a round of obnoxious "I-told-you-so"s, or are we going with "he was only signed because he's gay"?


What are you supposedly right about? Your position on this has changed so many times and at times was a mixture of all sides and no side. You said he wasn't on a team last Summer because he was gay (originally, then backed off that). You also tried to say being gay was an obstacle to employment for a league which has seen murderers, rapists, drug addicts, and dealers. You're not right about anything and you're still wrong because you still haven't explained how him being gay would keep him off all 30 NBA rosters. The fact that he made an NBA roster also refutes your original claim that he was blackballed because he's gay, or that was not actually your claim, who knows. This whole issue is a non-issue. It's an irrelevant basketball player who was irrelevant yesterday and is irrelevant today. Nobody besides the amature social scientists care that Jason Collins sucks cocks, the fact that the majority of people in this country don't support gay marriage and probably aren't pro gay rights doesn't change his being irrelevant. Basel, our great leader, doesn't care for the gays but he doesn't waste his time posting about Jason Collins because Jason Collins is irrelevant. Basically, this is an example of perpetuating a story and fabricating controversy where there is none. I'm sick of seeing this stupid thread, it's worse than the links Ballscientists excretes from his ass and smears across this forum.


----------



## Bogg

Adam said:


> What are you supposedly right about? *Your position on this has changed so many times and at times was a mixture of all sides and no side. * You said he wasn't on a team last Summer because he was gay (originally, then backed off that). You also tried to say being gay was an obstacle to employment for a league which has seen murderers, rapists, drug addicts, and dealers. You're not right about anything and you're still wrong because you still haven't explained how him being gay would keep him off all 30 NBA rosters. The fact that he made an NBA roster also refutes your original claim that he was blackballed because he's gay, or that was not actually your claim, who knows. This whole issue is a non-issue. It's an irrelevant basketball player who was irrelevant yesterday and is irrelevant today. Nobody besides the amature social scientists care that Jason Collins sucks cocks, the fact that the majority of people in this country don't support gay marriage and probably aren't pro gay rights doesn't change his being irrelevant. Basel, our great leader, doesn't care for the gays but he doesn't waste his time posting about Jason Collins because Jason Collins is irrelevant. Basically, this is an example of perpetuating a story and fabricating controversy where there is none. I'm sick of seeing this stupid thread, it's worse than the links Ballscientists excretes from his ass and smears across this forum.


It's never changed. It's just been assumed to be a number of different things, based on what would best suit other people's arguments. Go ahead, find a post that says anything other than "He's a deep-bench guy with a limited skillset that would help a few teams in specific situations, and coming out does nothing to help him get another job. If anything, it makes it tougher." Find where I said "He would absolutely have a spot in a rotation if he hadn't come out". I'll wait. I assume you'll either just keep throwing a fit or completely disappear from the thread (as R-star loves to call you out on from time to time), though.


----------



## Adam

He has a job because he played with Jason Kidd for a decade and Jason Kidd wants to sign him. The Nets want a big and their coach says he wants him. He can't help them because they're a shit team that doesn't matter. He's a glorified towel waver.

Address some of your stupid arguments before you talk further. You called being gay a contributing factor to him being unemployed. A contributing factor. You said it's a contributing factor because he brings distraction. Explain how a 15th man on a roster can distract a team because he's gay. Actually, I don't care for you to explain because it's a ludicrous and retarded argument and I won't agree with whatever silly ass ideas you posit.

Collins didn't have a job because in the Summer he wasn't good enough to command one. Not because he was gay. So you're wrong. Now, you're bumping the thread and furthering your own agenda which you never adequately persuaded a single person to accept because you didn't provide any supporting evidence or historical precedent or anything. You never even explained how being gay is a distraction.


----------



## R-Star

You kind of did say he'd be a great pickup against the Hibberts and Howards of the NBA (no, he wouldn't. Hes terrible). 

Now you're trying to say you didn't say he should or shouldn't be in the league, and that being gay didn't have a part to play in him getting signed or not signed. 

Basically you're saying you made the most broad argument of all time, where you could never be found wrong at the end of the day.

Not trying to be a dick, but come on Bogg. I directed you into some of those posts being as I'm the most talented puppet master in the galaxy when it comes to twisting a mans argument, but be that as it may you still said what you said.


----------



## Bogg

Adam said:


> He has a job because he played with Jason Kidd for a decade and Jason Kidd wants to sign him. The Nets want a big and their coach says he wants him. He can't help them because they're a shit team that doesn't matter. * He's a glorified towel waver.*


That's exactly what I was saying he'd be. Precisely because he's been very professional about it in the past, as opposed to other guys who become malcontents if they don't get time. Same reason Jannero Pargo keeps getting work - he doesn't defend and his shooting is streaky in a good year(he's in his 10th year a shoots under 40% for his career), but he practices hard, doesn't bitch if he doesn't play, and stays ready in case of an injury to a rotation guy. Those types of players tend to outlast their actual talent because teams don't like distractions from the guys wearing suits at the end of the bench. 



Adam said:


> Address some of your stupid arguments before you talk further. You called being gay a contributing factor to him being unemployed. A contributing factor. You said it's a contributing factor because he brings distraction. Explain how a 15th man on a roster can distract a team because he's gay. Actually, I don't care for you to explain because it's a ludicrous and retarded argument and I won't agree with whatever silly ass ideas you posit.


We've been over this in this very thread. The potential for distraction, either over his orientation or increased media coverage, was very real. Reporters got quotes about it and everything (unless you're going to join the argument that anything quoted anonymously is obviously a lie made up to get views). I don't see how it's so hard for you to understand that, on certain teams, anything that takes focus away from the next game is potentially damaging. 

_You_ explain why, if the only reason he came out was for the extra attention (which is what you argued), he wouldn't have done it when he was starting games in the NBA Finals and could have gotten some endorsements out of it. How does he gain by delaying until now?



R-Star said:


> You kind of did say he'd be a great pickup against the Hibberts and Howards of the NBA (no, he wouldn't. Hes terrible).
> 
> Now you're trying to say you didn't say he should or shouldn't be in the league, and that being gay didn't have a part to play in him getting signed or not signed.
> 
> Basically you're saying you made the most broad argument of all time, where you could never be found wrong at the end of the day.
> 
> Not trying to be a dick, but come on Bogg. I directed you into some of those posts being as I'm the most talented puppet master in the galaxy when it comes to twisting a mans argument, but be that as it may you still said what you said.


I said he'd be useful against the big centers around the league, Howard and Hibbert included, when viewed in the context of end-of-the-bench bigs. When you're talking about either throwing out Collins or a 6'7" power forward out of the D-league moonlighting as a center then yea, Collins could be of more use. I also _did_ take a position on Collins - he's a fringe NBA player who doesn't fit on most teams, but could help some teams that need extra big at the end of the bench.


----------



## kbdullah

Was hoping to find a better link than Deadspin, but Jason Collins got some playing time tonite. Here's the first check in:

http://deadspin.com/heres-jason-collins-checking-into-an-nba-game-and-his-1529410118?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow


----------



## Knick Killer

Why is he wearing #46?


----------



## Bogg

Knick Killer said:


> Why is he wearing #46?


It's just the extra jersey the Nets had available on short notice.


----------



## Knick Killer

Bogg said:


> It's just the extra jersey the Nets had available on short notice.


Actually? Lol.


----------



## Bogg

Knick Killer said:


> Actually? Lol.


Yea, he'll be wearing #98 next game and however many games he gets after that, but #46 was just all they had on hand today.


----------



## Jamel Irief

He looked like he'd be useful against Howard or hibbert tonight. A shame people shunned him because he's gay.


----------



## seifer0406

did Collins tackle any Nets players in the shower after the game? I thought that was one of the main fears of having a gay teammate. Gay people simply cannot resist the sight of penis. Black penis no less.


----------



## R-Star

seifer0406 said:


> did Collins tackle any Nets players in the shower after the game? I thought that was one of the main fears of having a gay teammate. Gay people simply cannot resist the sight of penis. Black penis no less.


Who said that?


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> I said he'd be useful against the big centers around the league, Howard and Hibbert included, when viewed in the context of end-of-the-bench bigs. When you're talking about either throwing out Collins or a 6'7" power forward out of the D-league moonlighting as a center then yea, Collins could be of more use. I also _did_ take a position on Collins - he's a fringe NBA player who doesn't fit on most teams, but could help some teams that need extra big at the end of the bench.


You can't just selectively decide what your opinion is on a post per post basis. 

Without going through me quoting the same posts over and over again, can we just agree you've been extremely liberal with what your actual opinion is on this? Changing the strength of your conviction on a post per post basis?


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> You can't just selectively decide what your opinion is on a post per post basis.
> 
> Without going through me quoting the same posts over and over again, can we just agree you've been extremely liberal with what your actual opinion is on this? Changing the strength of your conviction on a post per post basis?


No. Are there days where I feel more like arguing than other days? Sure. I never went from "He'd absolutely be in the league if he wasn't gay!" to "Well, maybe someone someday might be able to use him in the perfect storm of events" or claimed that the league collectively decided to blackball him specifically because he's gay. Like I've been saying all along: He's a fringe NBA player who could help a few teams but would have had a tough time getting another contract or two to begin with, and coming out as gay did nothing to help him in that regard. I _do_ think that his coming out at least factored into some team's analysis of him, because any GM that thinks about calling him and doesn't at least say "alright, is something our locker room can handle?" isn't doing his job. 

I just don't think it's a binary argument where you need to think that Collins is either an absolutely terrible basketball player with no place in the league trying to get a sympathy contract or a social hero who should be given a contract regardless of his talent simply for the statement it would make. He's a specialist who does one or two things legitimately well and struggles at most everything else - the big man equivalent to Eddie House in his last year or two. If a team has a pressing need for that one thing he does well, there's a limited role for him, but not every team (not even most teams) has a use for him. I never understood why it was so outrageous that I said Collins could sit a bench just as well as the Dexter Pittmans of the league.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> No. Are there days where I feel more like arguing than other days? Sure. I never went from "He'd absolutely be in the league if he wasn't gay!" to "Well, maybe someone someday might be able to use him in the perfect storm of events" or claimed that the league collectively decided to blackball him specifically because he's gay. Like I've been saying all along: He's a fringe NBA player who could help a few teams but would have had a tough time getting another contract or two to begin with, and coming out as gay did nothing to help him in that regard. I _do_ think that his coming out at least factored into some team's analysis of him, because any GM that thinks about calling him and doesn't at least say "alright, is something our locker room can handle?" isn't doing his job.
> 
> I just don't think it's a binary argument where you need to think that Collins is either an absolutely terrible basketball player with no place in the league trying to get a sympathy contract or a social hero who should be given a contract regardless of his talent simply for the statement it would make. He's a specialist who does one or two things legitimately well and struggles at most everything else - the big man equivalent to Eddie House in his last year or two. If a team has a pressing need for that one thing he does well, there's a limited role for him, but not every team (not even most teams) has a use for him. I never understood why it was so outrageous that I said Collins could sit a bench just as well as the Dexter Pittmans of the league.


Again, a deep bench guy on a 10 day contract isn't brought in to help out against the Hibberts and Howards of the world. 

You're now saying coming out of the closet probably didn't help him get a contract, yet in prior posts you said it absolutely turned teams off from signing him.

Again Bogg, you're taking a ridiculously broad take on what your stance in this debate is. 

It doesn't really matter, but you should at least own it.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Again, a deep bench guy on a 10 day contract isn't brought in to help out against the Hibberts and Howards of the world.


Everything in context - he's not going to turn into Dikembe out there just because the other center is big too. I'm shamelessly stealing this from ESPN yesterday, but just last year Collins posted one of the lowest opponent points-per-possession numbers in the league (we know, we know. "what's his Quimbley index?"). Granted, that was mostly against second- and third-stringers, but it confirms what I suspected from actually watching him - he's a good deal harder to post up than your average end-of-the-bench guy. I definitely think that he'd give you a better 5-10 minutes against a big center than a no-defense big like Byron Mullens or Antawn Jamison would. 



R-Star said:


> You're now saying coming out of the closet probably didn't help him get a contract, yet in prior posts you said it absolutely turned teams off from signing him.


Yea, I do think it limited the market for him. The Nets, as an organization, didn't really have to worry about anything because half their team already played with and liked one of the Collins twins and they have a pretty stable locker room. However, the kinds of struggling teams with iffy chemistry that would typically bring in a steadying locker-room influence (exactly like Washington did with him last year) don't need the extra attention while they're looking to right the ship. Not wanting frustrated (for on-court reasons) players having any extra distractions or chances to create controversy doesn't make a team homophobic, but it does factor into their decision-making.


----------



## RollWithEm

I think this story played out the way most people expected. He wasn't quite good enough to make a roster in training camp. A team who was desperate to contend right now got a major injury to a starter (Lopez). He got signed to a 10-day contract with intent to extend that contract through the end of the year. His play will ultimately dictate whether or not he sticks.


----------



## E.H. Munro

I should have caught this set up line earlier....



doctordrizzay said:


> They don't call me the second coming of Andy Kaufman for nothing


If Andy Kaufman _were_ father then he did indeed come for nothing.


----------



## LeGoat06

R-Star said:


> Who said that?


I wouldn't wanna shower with him.


----------



## R-Star

LeGoat06 said:


> I wouldn't wanna shower with him.


Why?


----------



## LeGoat06

R-Star said:


> Why?


He's gay


----------



## R-Star

LeGoat06 said:


> He's gay


So he's going to what? Sneak over and touch your dick?

Maybe touch you with his?

I heard if a gay guy touches you with his dick, it makes you gay. Even if its in a shower and you weren't looking. All it takes is just a graze of the tip, and wham, you're gay.


----------



## LeGoat06

R-Star said:


> So he's going to what? Sneak over and touch your dick?
> 
> Maybe touch you with his?


I wouldn't want to be taking showers with a bunch of huge black dudes to begin with. I'd never be able to feel good about my penis again


----------



## R-Star

Weird.


----------



## Dissonance

So much ignorance.

Just cuz someone's gay doesn't mean they're gonna stare at you or sexually harass you if you shower with them.


----------



## LeGoat06

I'm very weird


----------



## LeGoat06

Dissonance said:


> So much ignorance.
> 
> Just cuz someone's gay doesn't mean they're gonna stare at you or sexually harass you if you shower with them.


Please tell me you read the other comments and realized I was joking for ****s sake


----------



## R-Star

Dissonance said:


> So much ignorance.
> 
> Just cuz someone's gay doesn't mean they're gonna stare at you or sexually harass you if you shower with them.


Yea right man. He'll just go to the shower to clean himself. Yea right.

Hes a gay. A gay in the shower. And there's black dudes in there too.


Think about that for a minute.


----------



## R-Star

I didn't think you were joking if we're being honest.


----------



## LeGoat06

R-Star said:


> I didn't think you were joking if we're being honest.


I wasn't


----------



## R-Star

LeGoat06 said:


> I wasn't


I know that. So do you if you don't lie to yourself.


----------



## LeGoat06

R-Star said:


> I know that. So do you if you don't lie to yourself.


What can I say ? I hate the gays


----------



## R-Star

LeGoat06 said:


> What can I say ? I hate the gays


I hate hipsters.

What are the glasses for? You can see just fine. Nobody cares about your fancy fedora hat. 

Get a job you assholes.


----------



## LeGoat06

R-Star said:


> I hate hipsters.
> 
> What are the glasses for? You can see just fine. Nobody cares about your fancy fedora hat.
> 
> Get a job you assholes.


Lol true, I ****ing hate people that wear Fedoras


----------



## Bubbles

LeGoat06 said:


> Lol true, I ****ing hate people that wear Fedoras



I like to ask them if they're in a ska band.


----------



## Dornado

Bubbles said:


> I like to ask them if they're in a ska band.


I was in a ska band once (or twice).


----------



## Bubbles

Dornado said:


> I was in a ska band once (or twice).



So you're very knowledgable in fedoras I take it?


----------



## Dornado

Bubbles said:


> So you're very knowledgable in fedoras I take it?



I've seen a few fedoras in my day, yes. 

I will also say that touring with a ska band was about as much fun as I've ever had.


----------



## LeGoat06

Be a good time to call No ****


----------



## Dornado

LeGoat06 said:


> Be a good time to call No ****


Because I played in a ska band and we went on tour?

Calling 'no ****' is pretty homophobic, no?


----------



## LeGoat06

I don't know, I usually say it before doing extremely gay things. Like taking showers with a bunch of men after a sports game or eating a hot dog or something as arbitrary as telling your friend he looks good today. Me : That's a good looking shirt bro, no **** Friend : Thanks bro it goes well with the color of my eyes, no ****


----------



## Dornado

LeGoat06 said:


> I don't know, I usually say it before doing extremely gay things. Like taking showers with a bunch of men after a sports game or eating a hot dog or something as arbitrary as telling your friend he looks good today. Me : That's a good looking shirt bro, no **** Friend : Thanks bro it goes well with the color of my eyes, no ****


Is this post supposed to be funny?

And why would you care if people thought you were gay if you weren't homophobic and/or insecure about your own sexuality?


----------



## LeGoat06

Dornado said:


> Is this post supposed to be funny?
> 
> And why would you care if people thought you were gay if you weren't homophobic and/or insecure about your own sexuality?


No clue what you're talking about bro mauer


----------



## LeGoat06

Dornado said:


> Is this post supposed to be funny?
> 
> And why would you care if people thought you were gay if you weren't homophobic and/or insecure about your own sexuality?


And I do care if people think I'm gay, because I'm not gay. Why would I want people to think I'm something I'm not.


----------



## LeGoat06

And my gf would break up with me if I was gay :/


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

I wear fedoras 

:sadbanana:


----------



## LeGoat06

No ****


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

Fedoraphobes


----------



## Dornado

LeGoat06 said:


> And my gf would break up with me if I was gay :/


So you think you saying "no ****" is the only thing convincing your girlfriend of your sexual preference?


----------



## LeGoat06

Dornado said:


> So you think you saying "no ****" is the only thing convincing your girlfriend of your sexual preference?


Probably also because I like vagina. That probably has a lot to do with it.


----------



## Dornado

LeGoat06 said:


> Probably also because I like vagina. That probably has a lot to do with it.


I'm just saying most straight men I know, myself included... we don't really need to verbally remind the girls we're with...


----------



## LeGoat06

Dornado said:


> I'm just saying most straight men I know, myself included... we don't really need to verbally remind the girls we're with...


I say it as comic relief. And I would never have to say no **** to my gf Tony bromo. No **** is meant as a joke after a sentence. Just like "That's what she said" But it's w/e if it's not your cup of tea bro namath I won't judge.


----------



## Dornado

And the people you hang out with think homophobia is funny?


----------



## LeGoat06

Dornado said:


> And the people you hang out with think homophobia is funny?


simple wise cracks shouldn't automatically make someone a homophobe. So every person that's ever said a racist joke should be labeled a racist. You're a funny guy, I could care less if you think I'm a homophobe or w/e. I'm on a ****ing internet forum, I don't ****ing know you and you don't know me.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

LeGoat06 said:


> simple wise cracks shouldn't automatically make someone a homophobe. So every person that's ever said a racist joke should be labeled a racist. You're a funny guy, I could care less if you think I'm a homophobe or w/e. I'm on a ****ing internet forum, I don't ****ing know you and you don't know me.


You make no sense sometimes.


----------



## Dornado

LeGoat06 said:


> simple wise cracks shouldn't automatically make someone a homophobe. So every person that's ever said a racist joke should be labeled a racist. You're a funny guy, I could care less if you think I'm a homophobe or w/e. I'm on a ****ing internet forum, I don't ****ing know you and you don't know me.


You yourself said you were afraid of people thinking you were gay... if you weren't homophobic why would you care? I'm not attracted to morbidly obese women, but I don't feel the need to broadcast that preemptively because who gives a ****? Likewise, I don't go around making sure people don't think I'm gay, because who gives a ****? 

And you know what? People that tell racist jokes and mean them... those people are racists. If I had a feeling you didn't mean it in this case, I wouldn't assign the label.


----------



## LeGoat06

Dornado said:


> You yourself said you were afraid of people thinking you were gay... if you weren't homophobic why would you care? I'm not attracted to morbidly obese women, but I don't feel the need to broadcast that preemptively because who gives a ****? Likewise, I don't go around making sure people don't think I'm gay, because who gives a ****?
> 
> And you know what? People that tell racist jokes and mean them... those people are racists. If I had a feeling you didn't mean it in this case, I wouldn't assign the label.


..


----------



## E.H. Munro

King Sancho Fantastic said:


> I wear fedoras
> 
> :sadbanana:





King Sancho Fantastic said:


> Fedoraphobes


I'm with you buddy. And I don't mean one of them silly looking Trilbys either.


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## RollWithEm

This thread had the potential to get LeGoat banned from the start. I'm just surprised it took this long.


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## GNG

RollWithEm said:


> This thread had the potential to get LeGoat banned from the start. I'm just surprised it took this long.


Over/under on the no. of posts on the LeGoat thread on the mod board?


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## kbdullah

RollWithEm said:


> This thread had the potential to get LeGoat banned from the start. I'm just surprised it took this long.


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## R-Star

****. Missed the whole thing. 

Gosh darn it!

Oh, and fedoras? Really? EH can pull it off because hes old as ****, so he can wear one and I'd actually appreciate it because hes wearing it in a salute to Don Draper. The rest of you ****s? No. Quit with the fedoras. Quit with the mustache wax. Enough with the "vintage" clothing.


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## Jamel Irief

I am ****ing pissed I missed this entire exchange. Although it's probably a good thing, LeGoat served like 14 girlfriend jokes on a platter. I actually thought Dornado was going to lay one on him for a second.


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## Jamel Irief

R-Star said:


> ****. Missed the whole thing.
> 
> Gosh darn it!
> 
> Oh, and fedoras? Really? EH can pull it off because hes old as ****, so he can wear one and I'd actually appreciate it because hes wearing it in a salute to Don Draper. The rest of you ****s? No. Quit with the fedoras. Quit with the mustache wax. Enough with the "vintage" clothing.


Whatever man. Just because you're happy conforming to the mainstream doesn't mean I am! I drive a vespa.


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## letsgoceltics

My sig means nothing now. Is he banned forever?


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## Bubbles

letsgoceltics said:


> My sig means nothing now. Is he banned forever?



Nope. He'll be gone for another four days, give or take a few hours.


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## l0st1

Was gonna say if he got a permanent ban for being an ignorant homophobe then that's a bit harsh. 

Though I am pretty surprised it took him this long to get banned.


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## Bogg

Dornado said:


> You yourself said you were afraid of people thinking you were gay... if you weren't homophobic why would you care? *I'm not attracted to morbidly obese women,* but I don't feel the need to broadcast that preemptively because who gives a ****? Likewise, I don't go around making sure people don't think I'm gay, because who gives a ****?
> 
> And you know what? People that tell racist jokes and mean them... those people are racists. If I had a feeling you didn't mean it in this case, I wouldn't assign the label.


Weirdo.


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## LeGoat06

letsgoceltics said:


> My sig means nothing now. Is he banned forever?


No


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## R-Star

Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention, but it really doesn't seem like the crazy media blitz a lot of people predicted. 

Almost like its turning into a non story, like I said it would.


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## nanoBeast

When is Jason Collins going to come out and announce that he is a basketball player?


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## hobojoe




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## Jamel Irief

Maybe @LeGoat06 can confirm of Jason Collins is good at handling balls?


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## LeGoat06

Jamel Irief said:


> Maybe @LeGoat06 can confirm of Jason Collins is good at handling balls?


No but I can confirm your wife is


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