# Banks: Isiah Gets Jump On Crawford



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

*Bulls operations chief John Paxson could not be reached for comment, but because Crawford is a restricted free agent, Paxson will be able to match any offer extended to Crawford. Paxson has said he wants to wait to see what the market will dictate, so it shouldn't have come as a surprise that Paxson did not make an offer on Thursday, according to a league source.

Goodwin had said he expected Paxson to step up to the plate on Thursday with an offer, so it's safe to assume Goodwin isn't thrilled with the Bulls' strategy.*

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull02.html


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Interesting quote I found from a article in the NY Post...

*Meanwhile, Aaron Goodwin, agent for Jamal Crawford, indicated he might look for a sign-and-trade before signing a mid-level offer sheet the Knicks can provide. "If Chicago is just going to offer him the mid-level ($4.94M), he's not going back," Goodwin said. "Twenty nine teams can offer him that."*


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Interesting quote I found from a article in the NY Post...
> 
> *Meanwhile, Aaron Goodwin, agent for Jamal Crawford, indicated he might look for a sign-and-trade before signing a mid-level offer sheet the Knicks can provide. "If Chicago is just going to offer him the mid-level ($4.94M), he's not going back," Goodwin said. "Twenty nine teams can offer him that."*


Well , it's not really up to him , if bulls match the MLE and he does not get a higher offer what choices does he have???


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

Am i reading this correctly?

So it's alright if the Knicks offer him the MLE but if the Bulls offer that it's not enough?


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bullet</b>!
> 
> 
> Well , it's not really up to him , if bulls match the MLE and he does not get a higher offer what choices does he have???


He would probably demand a trade.


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

from the sound of it, jamal has no interest in signing the MLE for any team and wants more money then the MLE..hence the sign and trade talk.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Wow imagine that! An agent speaking out! That is a first. 

How many GMs have made an offer to their own FA already?


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## BigBillyBob (May 30, 2002)

I doubt that pax will facilitate a s & t just to make jc happy. If he won't accept the mle. Just match what ever offer sheet he signs.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Interesting quote I found from a article in the NY Post...
> 
> *Meanwhile, Aaron Goodwin, agent for Jamal Crawford, indicated he might look for a sign-and-trade before signing a mid-level offer sheet the Knicks can provide. "If Chicago is just going to offer him the mid-level ($4.94M), he's not going back," Goodwin said. "Twenty nine teams can offer him that."*


OK, so Crawford wants more than the mid level exception. Well, the only way he'll get it from an over the cap team like the Knicks is by going the S&T route. Crawford first has to find out what Thomas is willing to pay. Then he'd tell Pax and Pax would begin S&T negotiations with Thomas. I can think of a couple of players on the Knicks who might look good in Bulls uni's...Frank Williams, Michael Sweetney, and even Tim Thomas who only has two years remaining on his contract. TT would certainly give us the depth we need at the SF slot.

As for Crawford's lack of interest in returning to Chicago for the mid-level exception...I always knew he was a mercenary first and foremost and that all his talk about Chicago being his first choice was little more than rhetoric. Any Bulls fans feeling like they've been a little bit conned by their favorite Bulls player? Hey, I don't blame him for trying to get the best deal he can. But he can take all that love he professed to have for Chicago and stuff it.


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

There will be no sign and trade unless we get someone substantial back .. which means no sign and trade 

Unless we can get who we want .. Pax will just go get Macas, Cardy and Skins for the same dough ( and probably less ) 

If Jamdrop truly believes he is worth more and holds out .. then I expect him to go the qualifying offer route and go UFA next summer with another season under his belt to develop his game and actually warrant his $7M - $8M price tag 

And if he does that then we're in the playoffs... we'll stop drafting point guards .. and we''' show him that indeed romance = finance


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

Robinson , Jerome Williams, Chris Jeffries and Crawford @ $6M = $19.2M 

Tim Thomas and Othella Harrington = $16.1M

Salary diff = $3.1M - sufficient to satisfy BYC ish 

I'd do it 

*

Curry
Chandler
Thomas
Gordon
Hinrich 

bench

Davis
Harrington
Deng
Macijauskas
Duhon

Johnson
Pargo

Pippen

*

I'm moist


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

While not impossible it think it likely that JC will be with the bulls next year. A contract just above the MLE is what he is going to be offered. As for the Knicks. Well didn't JC say he was a PG and the bullls were holding him back by making him play SG. I just wonder what position he thinks he is going to play in NY. He will be playing SG in a three man rotation with SM and houston.

How is that any different than in chicago. Oh, i forgot he has been disrespected in chicago. Did he even not get paid?

Sometimes he acts like such a baby. He makes 4 million a year and he constantly whines about respect. I gues 37 million for 6 years is disrespect. Bite me.

He will be a bull next year whether he likes it or not. Maybe instead of whining he could work on improving his defensive so we don't have to watch every SG in the NBA drive by him all game.

david


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>F.Jerzy</b>!
> There will be no sign and trade unless we get someone substantial back .. which means no sign and trade
> 
> Unless we can get who we want .. Pax will just go get Macas, Cardy and Skins for the same dough ( and probably less )
> ...


...and then:



> Originally posted by <b>F.Jerzy</b>!
> Robinson , Jerome Williams, Chris Jeffries and Crawford @ $6M = $19.2M
> 
> Tim Thomas and Othella Harrington = $16.1M
> ...


Sybil???

Pssst, FJ, I agree, nice deal.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> While not impossible it think it likely that JC will be with the bulls next year. A contract just above the MLE is what he is going to be offered. As for the Knicks. Well didn't JC say he was a PG and the bullls were holding him back by making him play SG. I just wonder what position he thinks he is going to play in NY. He will be playing SG in a three man rotation with SM and houston.
> 
> How is that any different than in chicago. Oh, i forgot he has been disrespected in chicago. Did he even not get paid?
> ...


and so what if he is a Bull next year and he "doesn't like it"....what then? 

let him go. do whatever it takes to make a sign and trade. i smell a malcontent. 



:sour:


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

I think a sign and trade with the Knicks would be something like Crawford at $6.5 million for Kurt Thomas straight up. The Knicks have never been the brightest organization about poor contracts, but they'd have to be dopes to take back bad contracts (Robinson, Davis, Williams, or any combination) just to get a guard who probably doesn't even start unless Houston is out with an injury. 

Of course, I never understood why a team that has Marbury, Houston, Penny, Frank Williams, and Moochie Norris already in the backcourt is looking so hard for yet another guy to crowd the area. I'm sure Crawford would bump the last two out of the rotation (if they were in to begin with), but is there really enough minutes in the backcourt for the other four guys to be happy?


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>F.Jerzy</b>!
> Robinson , Jerome Williams, Chris Jeffries and Crawford @ $6M = $19.2M
> 
> Tim Thomas and Othella Harrington = $16.1M
> ...


Sure I'd do this one - the 13 mil cotract exchange (jyd+ERob for Thomas) benefits us alot since we can get production from Thomas at 3.He's a threat from 3 - thats good for the big guys.

In 2 years all of our current big contracts would be over and we'd have tons of free money (depends on the signing of EC+TC)


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Of course, I never understood why a team that has Marbury, Houston, Penny, Frank Williams, and Moochie Norris already in the backcourt is looking so hard for yet another guy to crowd the area.


H20,he of the ridiculous max contract,can barely get up and down the floor and refuses to have surgery.IT would love to push the eject button....


Did you watch us get spanked by the Nets??We had ZERO production from the 2...I think IT sees Crawford and Marbury as the second coming of Dumars and IT

Tim Thomas wont be traded for JC.Kurt is the guy most likely to go....We dont have a backup for TT...I dont consider Shandon Anderson a basketball player,and Demarr Johnson is unsigned


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## play hard (Jul 10, 2002)

The only scenario I like with a trade to the Knicks is JC, JYD and Erob for Tim Thomas(2years) and Mutumbo(expiring). It gives us some 3 depth and alot of salary cap flexibility in the next 2 years.

We dont want Kurt - His contract is a killer!!!


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

Crawford is worth more than the Mle and I find it funny that people are getting mad because asking for what hes worth .

The Bulls as a organization shouldnt let the team determine what our OWN free agents are worth to us .If the Bulls dont feel hes worth more than the Mle then why even keep him ? Heck I expect Gordon to be better than a MLE player myself .Just allow him to walk if hes only worth a little more than Bob Sura to us .


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

*''We have lots of interest in Jamal,'' Thomas said Thursday from his New York office. ''He and Rasheed Wallace are two of several people I will be talking to. I talked to six players."*

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull02.html

How much is "lots," Isiah? Does that mean he's #1 on your list...#3...(gulp) #6? Aaron Goodwin needs to know.

*''Jamal is a very gifted young man who can really shoot the ball and knows how to play the game. I like his attitude and his athleticism. We have a good veteran guard in Allan Houston, who is coming off an injury. Adding Jamal would really be good for a team.''*

...as insurance in case Houston can't play? ...as a replacement for Houston even if he can play? What's the plan, Isiah? I don't see anything in Thomas' remarks that indicate JC's his top or even his near-the-top priority. Sounds like nothing more than perfunctory schmoozing to me.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>F.Jerzy</b>!
> Robinson , Jerome Williams, Chris Jeffries and Crawford @ $6M = $19.2M
> 
> Tim Thomas and Othella Harrington = $16.1M
> ...


Wow, sign me up FJ.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

You guys are hilarious.

"Crawford's a Malcontent", "Crawford is a money mercenary".....

Yeah, and Tommie Smith hates the Bears and Coach Smith cause he hasn't signed his contract yet. You act like he should just sign whatever is put in front of him. 

This is business. In business you do and say whatever you need to so that you can best leverage your sitatuion and receive the best offer possible. 

Oh, and Brian Cardinal is obviously a malcontent cause he won't jump at the Bulls, and what about Macas, he hasn't signed with the Bulls yet....so he's obviously not worth our time and money....

Nice logic....Just because these guys don't bleed Bulls Black and Red, doesn't mean they wouldn't be great "assets" to the team.

Cardinal is wanted by alot of teams and everyone of them are able to offer what we are. Jackson is wanted by better teams then us and again teams that can offer what we offer.


come on, take it all with some grain of salt....let's see who signs where before we bash. 

Some of you must have very high blood pressure. Does the sight of Crawford send you in to convulsions? Breathe deep, exhale, remember, these guys have to write articles that are entertaining, not neccessarily informative.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

This must be a real downer for the "Craw is the saviour" crowd.

20 Teams call Brian Cardinal's agent, but only the Knicks have expressed interest in JC as far as I can tell. And he is only one of their top 6 targets. At the MLE level.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>chifaninca</b>!
> You guys are hilarious.
> 
> "Crawford's a Malcontent", "Crawford is a money mercenary".....
> ...


Well then, give me your opinion of players and agents who try to negotiate through the media. How many GM's do you think like to be put on the spot like that? And we're talking about _DAY ONE_ of the negotiation phase of free agency.

* Meanwhile, Aaron Goodwin, agent for Jamal Crawford, indicated he might look for a sign-and-trade before signing a mid-level offer sheet the Knicks can provide. "If Chicago is just going to offer him the mid-level ($4.94M), he's not going back," Goodwin said. "Twenty nine teams can offer him that."*

Please, tell me chifaninca, how did that public statement further the negotiations process between Goodwin and Paxson? In fact, can you recall a single instance in which a new contract was successfully negotiated through the press? All this does is tick people off and create more of a confrontational atmosphere instead of one of cooperation and compromise.

When you get down to it, its more about PR and spin than anything else. Someone ought to remind Goodwin how you catch more flies...


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> and so what if he is a Bull next year and he "doesn't like it"....what then?
> ...


Have Hinirch and Gordon whoop his skinny litle behind.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lorgg</b>!
> 
> 
> Have Hinirch and Gordon whoop his skinny litle behind.


lol.

geez. ya know what, i am beginning to think it's impossible to even have an individual opinion on these boards lately without getting called out (not by you, but others)...


(sorry chifaninca if i caused _your_ blood pressure to rise this morning.)

but i do. and that's just me. 

happy fourth of july everyone...going to step away from the keyboard now and go to the beach!! 

:usa:


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## onetenthlag (Jul 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> Crawford is worth more than the Mle and I find it funny that people are getting mad because asking for what hes worth .


I suspect that not a single GM in the NBA would agree with this statement. Crawford is a MLE player at this point in his career at best. To say that he deserves a salary above the MLE (starting in the $7M range with annual increases) is wrong IMO. Maybe back in the days of enormous free agent deals, but no team would give Jamal that deal today. Not even the Knicks if they had the $$. 

Apparently, the Nuggets aren't even going to offer Crawford that sort of deal, even though they have the cap room and need a combo guard to team with andre miller. kiki is a good GM, so this is a pretty telling fact.


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>onetenthlag</b>!
> 
> 
> I suspect that not a single GM in the NBA would agree with this statement. Crawford is a MLE player at this point in his career at best. To say that he deserves a salary above the MLE (starting in the $7M range with annual increases) is wrong IMO. Maybe back in the days of enormous free agent deals, but no team would give Jamal that deal today. Not even the Knicks if they had the $$.
> ...


...which means that Pax, if you take him at face value, will be presented with a "tradeable" contract and hence, most likely match the offer seet. I have to believe that 6 years, 37 mill is within the Bulls budget for Crawford.

I stillcan't believe someone like Antonio Davis is being paid what he's currently getting!! One of the consequences of all these overpriced has-beens is that, hopefully, players entering their early to mid 30s will not be getting huge deals, making them contractual albatrosses when their skills rapidly diminish..

It's simply ludicrious to give someone that much money for those many years!!


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>onetenthlag</b>!
> 
> 
> I suspect that not a single GM in the NBA would agree with this statement. Crawford is a MLE player at this point in his career at best. To say that he deserves a salary above the MLE (starting in the $7M range with annual increases) is wrong IMO. Maybe back in the days of enormous free agent deals, but no team would give Jamal that deal today. Not even the Knicks if they had the $$.
> ...


In addition, if there was real demand for Jamal's services, do you think we'd be seeing his agent use the press as he has to challenge the Bulls to step up? Since Goodwin seems to like to go public with his negotiations perhaps he'll tip us off as to how many inquiries or offers in excess of the MLE he's received for his client so far.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>chifaninca</b>!
> You guys are hilarious.
> 
> "Crawford's a Malcontent", "Crawford is a money mercenary".....
> ...


Seriously Chifan, this is a great post, I don't even know how to describe the other posts but ridiculous, pathetic, assinine, are a few words that come to mind.

Quick, how many players on non rookie contract, are leading scorers for their teams and only getting the MLE?

JC's not worth 6, 7 mil?

Jason Terry got 8 mil from Utah last season, of all teams, but JC is only worth $4.94 mil, do you guys know anything about basketball?

I already know the answer to that one.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Seriously Chifan, this is a great post, I don't even know how to describe the other posts but <b>ridiculous, pathetic, assinine, </b>are a few words that come to mind.
> ...


Thanks for your considerate word for my opinion. You are always one generous and articulate poster on this board.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Various impressions I have:

1. I agree with ChiFan that the "mercenary" quotes are pretty silly. Give me a break, the Crawford is a FA and that's how free agency is negotiated in many cases. It's not like the Bulls have never used public statements and leaks to give their impressions of Jamal and other guys.

2. I'm getting the sense that Jamal is a guy who's stock is not all that high around the league, somewhat like Stephen Jackson was last year. That doesn't mean that he'll not good a good offer, but it's not like a lot of teams are going to be enthusiastic about him.

*3. Question: If the Knicks acquire Crawford in a sign and trade, do they still get to use their MLE? Talk about a reason the Knicks would help out in that regard.*


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> ...Just allow him to walk if hes only worth a little more than Bob Sura to us ...


Agree, but Bulls need to get something in return, for the draft pick #8, 2000


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## Qwst25 (Apr 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> Quick, how many players on non rookie contract, are leading scorers for their teams and only getting the MLE?
> 
> JC's not worth 6, 7 mil?


Last season Jamal Crawford finaly got the oportunity he wanted. He was given the green light to prove to the Bulls and the rest of the NBA what he is capable of. And he proceeded to lead the second worst team in the NBA in scoring, by shooting about 38% from the field (29% 3pt). 

Now I don't think he is going be a career 38% shooter, his numbers should get better. But he hasn't proved anything yet in his first four years. Consequently he doesn't deserve the big pay day of 6-7 million a year. 

But the answer to your question is JAMAL CRAWFORD :rbanana:


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont consider Shandon Anderson a basketball player


harsh...


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

It's amazing how this issue has gotten so big. Remember back to when Pax and Jamal first started discussing an extension. I thing the wording in the quote was "we are way off" in terms of agreeing on a salary. Rather than getting emotional and burning bridges, Pax took the approach of wait and see. If Crawdaddy thinks he can get more elsewhere, let the market set the value. Now, as that value is being determined, Goodwin is starting to realize that it is a lot closer to what Pax was willing to offer, and very far from what he was asking for. Now Goodwin has to bluster in the press because he's been feeding Jamal a load of crap about what he can get on the open market, and now that he's discovering what some of us have thought to be the case for quite ome time, he's got to save face in front of his client.

Why is Pax painted as the bad guy, here? I still have faith that Pax will match whatever offer, and that Crawdaddy will sign in the range of the MLE.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Right, Wynn. I don't think Crawford or Paxson needs to be painted a bad guy in this situation. This is just standard RFA posturing.


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

I dont think there is much demand for point gaurds on the market period and i think you guys are reading way too much into one article. We should know who stands where by mid july. He could end up in Houston they need a pg in the worst way.


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## onetenthlag (Jul 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Seriously Chifan, this is a great post, I don't even know how to describe the other posts but ridiculous, pathetic, assinine, are a few words that come to mind.
> ...


Not to get into it too much here with you, but this is a low-class post. If you get this heated about other people's opinions (supported by facts - at least in their opinion), you should reorient your priorities. This board is meant as a discussion forum - i.e. two sides to a discussion. It seems like you're only interested in your side. I've obviously never met you and know nothing about you, so maybe I'm wrong. But from your post, I have to wonder why you consider yourself so superior to anyone who disagrees with you. :no: 

To get back on topic, my opinion is that Crawford isn't worth $7M based on the current free agency market. The fact that almost every NBA GM agrees should at least be enough reason for you to respect my opinion.

Bottom line, I like your posts and think you probably do know more than most guys around here. But, seriously, try some restraint.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>F.Jerzy</b>!
> If Jamdrop truly believes he is worth more and holds out .. then I expect him to go the qualifying offer route and go UFA next summer with another season under his belt to develop his game and actually warrant his $7M - $8M price tag
> 
> And if he does that then we're in the playoffs... we'll stop drafting point guards .. and we''' show him that indeed romance = finance


Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Hinrich, Crawford and 2 rookies will not lead a team into the playoffs.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Qwst25</b>!
> 
> 
> Last season Jamal Crawford finaly got the oportunity he wanted. He was given the green light to prove to the Bulls and the rest of the NBA what he is capable of. And he proceeded to lead the second worst team in the NBA in scoring, by shooting about 38% from the field (29% 3pt).
> ...


Actually I would say his value was basically held down last year with his moving to sg due to the Rose trade .What good is getting an oppurtunity if its not at your best position ?Het its Chandlers contract year now so why not move hi mto sf and when he falls on his face we can say see I told you he was no good :laugh:


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> H20,he of the ridiculous max contract,can barely get up and down the floor and refuses to have surgery.IT would love to push the eject button....
> ...


more than that , the nets among other teams finally figured out if you just follow starbury around and try to limit him with double and triple teams you can beat the knicks pretty easily, because especially with houston out there was nothing else really for the knicks to go to, another ballhandler in the backcourt would do wonders which i'm sorry to say H2O is not and the backups are not someone i would want yet for prime time minutes for some reason or another .

i dont think bulls fans watch enough knick games to know how important JC would be in ny , but i bet isiah knows.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> *3. Question: If the Knicks acquire Crawford in a sign and trade, do they still get to use their MLE? Talk about a reason the Knicks would help out in that regard.*


hear me now if you can see a knick game with shandon anderson in it . he may a bull next season in place of JC , he makes way more sense than kurt thomas does for the bulls because KT is just a slightly better version of what AD does , but shandon is the longer, defense , athletic slasher pax wants , he is a responsible vet who would be playing around his 600th consectuitive game next year except lenny wilkens benched him inexplicably . if the knicks threw in frank williams to a 3rd party team(a player that is not needed with moochie norris JC and stephon on the roster) to facilitate any s & T deal in which IT will most likely take a big contract from the bulls (e-rob makes the most sense) it will get done ....all we have to do is wait and see what teams get their free agents and what teams dont and want to save their space for next year.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> 
> 
> Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Hinrich, Crawford and 2 rookies will not lead a team into the playoffs.


This is an OPINION, obviously, and not a FACT. Why don't you think so?

The team as it was constituted in 2003-2004 scored (on avaerage) 6.3 points fewer than their opponents. This is a FACT. This was playing the whole season without a (in my OPINION) legitimate NBA quality SF. It was also without (in my OPINION) quality depth at any position (possibly excluding PF/C). Also, it is a FACT that Tyson Chandler only played in 35 games and then only played 22.3 mpg.

It is my OPINION that the changes they've made would certainly give us a chance at making up that 6+ point difference. Am I guarantueeing playoffs? No. But I am also not willing to state as FACT that it will not happen. Adding Tyson, Gordon, and Deng give us our first shot at a true NBA SF since Artest (OPINION) and three more quality NBA ball players (OPINION) than we had on last season's roster. It is my hope (FACT) that we will also sign another SF in the form of SJax, Bowen, or Cardinal.

This roster, in my OPINION, does stand to make a run for the playoffs.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> more than that , the nets among other teams finally figured out if you just follow starbury around and try to limit him with double and triple teams you can beat the knicks pretty easily, because especially with houston out there was nothing else really for the knicks to go to, another ballhandler in the backcourt would do wonders which i'm sorry to say H2O is not and the backups are not someone i would want yet for prime time minutes for some reason or another .
> ...


Well I watch a lot of Knicks games living in NYC, and I agree that the Knicks could use JC. Allan Houston has been a non entity on that team for a while now. He's the next closest thing to Grant Hill, and when he plays he still can't really move around on D at all, though his shot is still deadly. 

If Crawford was on the Knicks next year and Houston was the opening day starter, I think he will quickly find himself icing his knees on the bench, sadly for him. Jamal would start 50 plus games for them right away.

What is interesting is that if JC was a Knick, he would play the exact same position he did on the Knicks, more of a 2 guard, but really just one of two flexible guards in a two guard offense next to Marbury.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Well I watch a lot of Knicks games living in NYC, and I agree that the Knicks could use JC. Allan Houston has been a non entity on that team for a while now. He's the next closest thing to Grant Hill, and when he plays he still can't really move around on D at all, though his shot is still deadly.
> ...


its very possible JC could start whether or not houston is healthy either due to being a better fit with his ballhandling or to conserve if not flat out being a better player. I think another thing is the calibur of pg Jc would being playing with , on the knicks you could see players who because of the defensive effort other teams had to exert to stop marbury every player would get at least a couple of open looks on the perimeter a game , even houston which automatic when open bad knees or not. Plus since i believe its wilkens and IT's desire to get another pg type specifically to play with stephon , Jc may be playing more pg in ny then he would have in chi. as they may try make him a more AI type player , in a scoring position i dont believe there are too many player quick enough to stay with him and strong enough to avoid marbury trying to bull by them.

on a different level it just doesn't seem like H20 fits on that team anymore but i personally like him there i dont see too many team that could play small ball with them with a lineup of Jc(if he were to go there) houston marbury TT and KT and their normal line up in which TT would be substituted imo with mohammed isn't too shabby either.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> its very possible JC could start whether or not houston is healthy either due to being a better fit with his ballhandling or to conserve if not flat out being a better player. I think another thing is the calibur of pg Jc would being playing with , on the knicks you could see players who because of the defensive effort other teams had to exert to stop marbury every player would get at least a couple of open looks on the perimeter a game , even houston which automatic when open bad knees or not. Plus since i believe its wilkens and IT's desire to get another pg type specifically to play with stephon , Jc may be playing more pg in ny then he would have in chi. as they may try make him a more AI type player , in a scoring position i dont believe there are too many player quick enough to stay with him and strong enough to avoid marbury trying to bull by them.
> ...



Good stuff Grinch thats along my thoughts as well .The Knicks put up a good fight against the Nets last year and Penny played a similar game to what they would like Jamal to do but Penny just didnt have the quicks to play against Kittles,Rjeff,and harris on offense or defense .


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

"Jamal Crawford would look for a sign-and-trade before accepting the mid-level offer sheet the Knicks can provide. "If Chicago is just going to offer him the mid-level ($4.94M), he's not going back," Goodwin said. "Twenty nine teams can offer him that." 

Thoughts?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Just as a general concept, here's what I think about Knicks sign and trade ideas:

The principle benefit for us has to be at least one of:
1) Unloading JYD, ERob and/or AD for better deals
2) Tim Thomas makes good sense. He's only 27 and plays the 3. However, he's like the only guy that plays the 3 on the Knicks, so I don't see them trading him.
3) Sweetney makes good sense if we're worried about Tyson, or if we want to platoon Tyson and Eddy at Center. Moving JYD or Davis as part of that deal would make really good sense.

Stuff that doesn't make sense:

Kurt Thomas is 32. I don't see how he helps us at all, even if we're trading away JYD. Same contract length, more money.

--------------------------

If we want older, veteran players I'd try to do something like arrange a 3 way to get Antoine Walker, sending K. Thomas and change down to Dallas.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> "Jamal Crawford would look for a sign-and-trade before accepting the mid-level offer sheet the Knicks can provide. "If Chicago is just going to offer him the mid-level ($4.94M), he's not going back," Goodwin said. "Twenty nine teams can offer him that."
> 
> Thoughts?


Did you miss the 2nd post of the thread?


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

As a matter of fact, I just scanned back there.

Sorry gang.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Just as a general concept, here's what I think about Knicks sign and trade ideas:
> 
> The principle benefit for us has to be at least one of:
> ...


mike you dont fair deals in sign and trades so any deal involving sweetney will involve TC EC or kirk that is just the way it is. he is just as good a prospect at this point. kurt thomas othella harrington and shandon anderson make the most sense for Zeke to trade 

Thomas has gotten a mandate from dolan to win and IT has basically picked certain players he thinks can do that, JC being one of them but i doubt he is going to trade a player he has brought in for it because outside of a reclaimation project like demarr or vin baker i dont see exchanging a piece he would feel the need to replace for one he wants ...it would still leave him a hole.

I like kurt thomas as a player but he is what he is ,a good shooter a very defender and a rugged enforcer ...somewhat like a more skilled less, thuggish oakley which is worth more to the team he is on than he should be in a trade especially on the knicks who have basically spent all of their money on the perimeter, he isn't going anywhere until there are at least 2 players on the knicks (sweetney and nazr) better than him, or unless Zeke thinks he has an upgrade coming in from somewhere else.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> As for Crawford's lack of interest in returning to Chicago for the mid-level exception...I always knew he was a mercenary first and foremost and that all his talk about Chicago being his first choice was little more than rhetoric. Any Bulls fans feeling like they've been a little bit conned by their favorite Bulls player? Hey, I don't blame him for trying to get the best deal he can. But he can take all that love he professed to have for Chicago and stuff it.


haha. I don't blame him for not wanting to come back here. He's been treated like the boy nobody wanted for his entire tenure as a bull, while he has watched his friends leave the team and become very successfull elsewhere.

There's like maybe 5 people on this board who like Crawford. For everyone else he's a whipping boy for their frustrations. And this is a bulls board.

I'm a bulls fan first and foremost, but I won't lie, I REALLY hope he allows Crawford to go somewhere else. JC has done his time. It's time to set him free. It would be cruel and unusual to bring him back here where he's not even wanted just because we can.

Let's take Tim Thomas and be done with it.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Let's take Tim Thomas and be done with it.


This is wishful thinking..

We're not getting Tim Thomas.

If anything, Isiah gives us Shandon Anderson.

But he's not giving up his starting 3.

Indiana gave up Miller and got back Pollard, we're gona give up JC and get back arguably a better player?

Nah...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> This is wishful thinking..
> ...


Ok. Shandon Anderson. Whomever Pax wants to do. I personally don't think Tim Thomas is better than JC. But whatever.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

Posted by arenas809,

Seriously Chifan, this is a great post, I don't even know how to describe the other posts but ridiculous, pathetic, assinine, are a few words that come to mind.

Well guess what we have is we are all been called ridiculous, pathetic and assinine by the broads most polite poster. Thanks for that insightful comment.

It should be clear to everyone why arenas is constantly involved is so much trashing talk. Next he will be tell us "we the bulls fans on the thread make him post rude and disrecpectul comments.

Personally, i think the post pathetic post of the year was the clippers were going to draft Deng with the 2nd pick.

david


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> Posted by arenas809,
> 
> Seriously Chifan, this is a great post, I don't even know how to describe the other posts but ridiculous, pathetic, assinine, are a few words that come to mind.
> ...


Whoa, Big Fella...settle down, kick back and pour another round! Its a holiday weekend. And whatever you do don't let this stuff spoil all that fun you've got planned! Juicy hamburgers...girthy hot dogs..._it's all good!_


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> Posted by arenas809,
> 
> Seriously Chifan, this is a great post, I don't even know how to describe the other posts but ridiculous, pathetic, assinine, are a few words that come to mind.
> ...


David, no one is talking trash, you continue to try and bait me with that whole Deng thing, the draft is over, move on.

It's just disappointing to start a thread and then have 20 people give baseless complaints in regards to what JC is doing, and really more so what his agent is doing on his behalf.

The whole year you get to read JC complaints in almost every thread, everything is his fault, he can't do anything right nonsense and now in the offseason you have people complaining because he "might" be "participating" in a charity game and now because he won't except a quarter as a salary you have all these people, including yourself, talking bad as usual.

Call it a blow up, but its just frustrating.

That was at whatever o'clock in the morning, and clearly I've moved on from it, I meant what I said at the time, I just don't get a complaint about a guy who's a leading scorer to want more money than the MLE, we just saw Marquis Daniels get over 6.5 mil a year, and Crawford doesn't deserve more than 4.9?

I mean, I don't know, I just don't get the thinking here, especially when it comes to JC.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

//JC has done his time. It's time to set him free.//

Indeed, JC did waste our time and a high first round draft pick. He was focused, all this years, on maintaining an image of potential big time PG, rather than playing a team’s game.

Contracts, money, glory, …should not be the goal for a good player. They should come as a certain reimbursement for extraordinary performance and skills, not vice versa.

Yes, it is time to set the Bulls free from Jamal, if he got his own agenda and ambitions.


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## djsmokyc (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> This is wishful thinking..
> ...


Miller wasn't restricted. Makes a world of difference. Plus Isiah could get E-Rob in the deal, and get an all new starting SF.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>djsmokyc</b>!
> 
> 
> Miller wasn't restricted. Makes a world of difference. Plus Isiah could get E-Rob in the deal, and get an all new starting SF.


Thats right. And we all know what Isiah thinks about practice. Just ask Larry Bird. ERobb would be a perfect fit!


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> ...and then:
> ...


I don't think there was anything contradictory in the posts m'friend

I still stand by what I said in that I would not expect to be a sign and trade unless we get back something we can use 

Tim Thomas we can use and makes sense for us and I see of comparative value to Jamal Crawford 

It all depends on how willing the Knicks are to deal TT 

Maybe if they like a guy like Hedo Turkoglu for the MLE .. or even if they can get their MLE to stretch and secure Morris Petersen / Bruce Bowen for the money 

I mean if your the Knicks who would you rather have ?

Jamal Crawford, Morris Petersen , Jerome Williams and Eddie Robinson ?

Or Tim Thomas and Othella Harrington 

I know where I see the greater bang for the buck 

A lot of the guys on this thread think that TT is an untouchable and isn't replaceable with quality in the free agency market 

Consider that Trigger Thomas ( Isiah ) is almost a pathological trader and any suggestion that someone like TT is not tradeable on the Knicks roster , to me , is a bit of a joke


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think there was anything contradictory in the posts m'friend
> ...


you make it sound like Zeke thomas has some sort of trading sickness and that he cant stop , and that he would make 2 moves to essentially fill one hole , when all he needs to do is get one player , you would have him go through a gambit of moves to do the work of 1 FA signing , it seems like a lot more trouble than its worth especially considering trading thomas at this point would make it seem like Isiah made a mistake in getting Tim in the 1st place and i dont see that happening, whether or not he is replacable


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> you make it sound like Zeke thomas has some sort of trading sickness and that he cant stop


Well it was hyperbole just to make the point that in his actions he is determined to be courageous and mix it up on the trading front in order to get what he wants 



> and that he would make 2 moves to essentially fill one hole , when all he needs to do is get one player , you would have him go through a gambit of moves to do the work of 1 FA signing , it seems like a lot more trouble than its worth


That all depends on how badly he wants Jamal Crawford to outbid the rest of the market , that , as his agent points out can offer him the MLE ( when referencing that Jamal will not go back to the Bulls for the MLE when "29 teams can offer him that" ) 

In addition to which , a sign and trade of Crawford that involves a player (IMO at least ) of comparative value ( at least at this static moment in time ) in TT enables Isiah Thomas to make a play for Morris Petersen ( who the Knicks were reportedly trying to trade for last summer ) with their MLE and then also using the balance of the MLE to secure Michael Doleac - who , can't get the length in the deal he wants by taking the $1.6M exception 


So the way I see it - it makes better sense to trade for comparative value ( if it is accepted that TT and Crawford are comparative value ) and depth ( JYD and Robinson ) if it will enable you to get an additional younger/ cheaper player in Petersen or Turkoglu - in addition to getting size and Center depth in Doleac .......

Rather than ....

Making a futile MLE offer for Crawford which the Bulls will likely match and then having TT and Andersen at the 3 which gives no impetus to get younger at this position with the addition of a Petersen or a Turkoglu



> especially considering trading thomas at this point would make it seem like Isiah made a mistake in getting Tim in the 1st place and i dont see that happening, whether or not he is replacable


Isiah is a lot of things but fearless he is not 

I disagree with you here

I don't think he would give a flying F K about whether it would be perceived that he made a mistake in acquirig TT 

If anything .. the glass half full as opposed to the glass half empty spin on this would be that he acquired a tradeable asset from Keith Van Horn that enabled him to trade for an up and coming hot guard that wasn't going to be had for the MLE and which then also enabled him to use that MLE to get younger and deeper at the 3 spot ( say Petersen ) in addition to the Center spot ( Doleac ) 

Doleac wants to be in New York 

I don't see how the Raps match Petersen with big money committed to Rose and Carter and with Marshall also to play on the forward line with Bosch moving back to his natural 4 .. there are cheaper alternatives for them at the G/F positions ( say Rasual Butler for half the cost they would have to pay Petersen ) and they can get greater spread /coverage at positions of need - point guard and big man depth 

If the Knicks came up with a deal around $3M to $3.5M for Petersen I think they could get him for that 

Crawford, Petersen , Doleac , JYD and Eddie Robinson added

for 

Tim Thomas and Othella Harrington subtracted 

Would be a nice summer for Isiah .. especially considering that young talent will not be infused into this team for quite some time given the slew of draft picks which have been given away in the Marbury trade

And eventual starting 5 of 

*

Doleac
Sweetney
Petersen
Crawford
Marbury

backed by 

bench

Mohammed
Thomas
Robinson
Houston
Williams

Hardaway
Andersen

*

Is not a bad looking line up 

I particularly like Doleac's jump shooting game complementing Sweetney's game on the blocks offensively


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

I am just wondering. How can two teams (bulls and kincks) who are over the cap be involved trading a BYC player?

I am not saying it cannot be done i just don't see how after reading the rules.

david


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Since things were a little slow here, I must confess that I went over to the "other" board and read a lively Jamal thread.

In it, his sister JCBigSis said the phone had been ringing off the hook implying teams were knocking down Jamal's door to get his services and she left with this:



> You all will be surprised when this is over.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

FJ if you think IT will recant his deal for tim thomas , you are out of your mind , for one Zeke has a huge ego ,its simply not in his character , 2nd the main reason he did the trade in the 1st place was to get 2 starters for KVH to throw that away invalidates that deal as well . and 3rd you DONT EVER look weak in front of the ny media Scott layden did and little more than a month out of what was one of the best offseason a ny gm has ever had he was fired , nothing can save you if the press comes after your head here.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> FJ if you think IT will recant his deal for tim thomas , you are out of your mind


I don't think he will either grinch 

Which is not to say that he should ( IMO ) as I think it is a good deal for both teams


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> I am just wondering. How can two teams (bulls and kincks) who are over the cap be involved trading a BYC player?
> 
> I am not saying it cannot be done i just don't see how after reading the rules.
> ...



David

Basically..

You just need to trade enough salary to ensure that the salary differential in the total trade package = Jamal's BYC value 

Jamal's BYC value will be the greater of 120% of his pay packet last season or half the value of his new contract - whichever is the greater

So if he signs for $6M in a sign and trade - his value to us is $3M

New York accepts full nominal value of his contarct whereas we can only treat his salary for what goes out and what comes back in within the CBA at $3M 

Therefore we need to do trades where there is enough salary that sits within the 115% + $100K CBA dictates and where that differential is equivalent to the BYC gap that pertains to Jamal


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

That is of course if we are only dealing with one team in atwo way trade

The most common way to get BYC trades to work is to work in a 3rd team to be the recipient of salary dumping to make the deal work


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> That is of course if we are only dealing with one team in atwo way trade
> 
> The most common way to get BYC trades to work is to work in a 3rd team to be the recipient of salary dumping to make the deal work


The phrase "most common" implies that there are many BYC trades. Is this in fact the case? I was under the impression that they happen very infrequently.


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> The phrase "most common" implies that there are many BYC trades. Is this in fact the case? I was under the impression that they happen very infrequently.


Well maybe I should have phrased it differently such as an _easier _ way to do it is to involve a willing 3rd team to take the cast offs for other benefits ( draft pick etc )


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>F.Jerzy</b>!
> 
> Well maybe I should have phrased it differently such as an _easier _ way to do it is to involve a willing 3rd team to take the cast offs for other benefits ( draft pick etc )


It still seems like most of the trades leave us worse off than if we just signed Crawdaddy outright. Frankly, most seem to leave us worse off than if we just let him go. I'm hoping that JPax doesn't get so caught up in trying to formulate a trade that he loses sight of WHY he's trying to do it.

IMO best case scenario is to resign Crawdaddy and bring in another SF with the MLE.


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