# LeBron James has a monster game in loss vs. Memphis



## Nevus

33 points on 14-28 FGs and 3-6 from 3, <b>16 rebounds</b>, 7 assists, 1 steal, 1 block. (And 8 turnovers.)

Career highs in both points and rebounds.

Two of his 3's were late in the 4th quarter. He made a lot of big plays in the 4th quarter and in the first overtime, from what I could tell on CBS Sportsline.

12 or 13 of those rebounds were in regulation alone.

Unfortunately they lost. Would anyone like to claim that he was just putting up stats and wasn't helping his team win?

I'm very impressed. It's good to see him hitting big jumpshots late in the game, and making other big plays. His intensity goes up a notch late in some games, and I think he's going to be a great all-around clutch player eventually.


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## 7M3

*I watched this game...*

And let me tell you, while LeBron made some unbelievable plays to keep his team in the game, he may have lost it for them as well. They must have isolated him 6 or 7 times in both the 4th quarter and the overtimes, and he turned it over the majority of those possesions.

That was the best game I've seen in a long, long time.


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## Johnny Mac

The guy is a monster. 

This draft class may prove to be the best ever. James is 18 and already reaching superstar status. Carmelo is doing the same thing at the age of 19. Bosh looks like he could be a superstar in the future without a doubt, hes still very raw and has put up impressive numbers lately despite that...theres something about a guy who puts up a near double double, while blocking a couple shots a game and still has a long ways to go in development. Wade is 21 and will improve also, he has what it takes to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a team while doing a lot of intangibles. TJ Ford has impressed people, including Iverson. Not to mention Darko. Thats 4 likely superstars in this class, and what looks to be a few really solid players, and thats just from what we've seen so far. Who knows when guys like Kaman or Hinrich will step up and become impact players on their team. 

As far as Lebron goes, theres not much to say.


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## Johnny Mac

Whats impressive about this game also, is that he played 55 minutes. Thats gotta be a record for a guy so young.


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## ToddMacCulloch11

I didn't see the game at all, but those are damn good stats. I'm sure a win would be worth a lot more to him though.


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## Nevus

This observation isn't necessarily specific to this game, but have you noticed how good LeBron is with his left hand? He makes finishes around the basket with his left hand that most players can't make with their strong hand. I remember before he was drafted some people were claiming that he couldn't do anything with his left hand. He's one of the most ambidextrous players I've ever seen.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> This observation isn't necessarily specific to this game, but have you noticed how good LeBron is with his left hand? He makes finishes around the basket with his left hand that most players can't make with their strong hand. I remember before he was drafted some people were claiming that he couldn't do anything with his left hand. He's one of the most ambidextrous players I've ever seen.


I was just talking to some friends about this Nevus. He has a very strong left hand. That being said I dont thin he neccessarily cost them the game because his huge game kept them in it but I do think that those 2 turnovers were very costly ones and Ricky Davis should have been all over Miller at the end of the 4th quarter with the way Miller had been playing the whole night.


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> This observation isn't necessarily specific to this game, but have you noticed how good LeBron is with his left hand? He makes finishes around the basket with his left hand that most players can't make with their strong hand. I remember before he was drafted some people were claiming that he couldn't do anything with his left hand. He's one of the most ambidextrous players I've ever seen.


I remember this is one of the things MJ liked about Lebron when Lebron was just a junior playing with MJ in the summer. His left hand is as good as his right hand. His ball handling seems to get even better when he's at full speed btw, it seems like he's really good at turning almost turnovers into points. Like whenever someone almost steals it from him, he takes it personal and goes hard to the hole on them. I need to watch sportscenter to see these highlights. I'm really suprised they didnt win this game though. I really hope the cavs can start winning some of these games. I know it's got to be killing Lebron and Silas to be losing right now.


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## Nevus

Here's another general thought about LeBron that I've been contemplating recently... we all knew as he came into the league that he's a 2-3 swingman who has a gift for playing the point. But more and more, I've been thinking he's got a lot of elements of a power forward as well. At 240 pounds he's made some great power moves at the basket, he blocks some shots, and he's a good rebounder, as he showed in this game.

For a PF he is undersized, but his strength is good and his agility is ridiculous... I'm looking forward to watching him develop a post game in the future. I expect he'll be a great post player, especially passing out of the post. He could average a lot more assists if he would post up and his teammates would cut to the basket.

If he plays for the Olympic team I'd like to see him play some time at the 4. He would just be too much of a beast for the opposition to handle.


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## Ballscientist

Cavs have 8 good players. Something is really wrong. it reminds me the Clippers last season.


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## Nevus

> Cavs have 8 good players. Something is really wrong. it reminds me the Clippers last season.


Individual talent is overrated beyond the 1 or 2 best players on a team... once you have a few talented players, it's more important to have good teamwork, established roles, and a team identity that the players can have confidence in... the Cavaliers have none of these other things yet.

They're so frustrating to root for because they don't have to be losing. It's not like the Knicks or the Magic where they just don't have enough talent.


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## PetroToZoran

I'm waiting for Jockrider to comment on this thread...


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## Nevus

> I'm waiting for Jockrider to comment on this thread...


I'm waiting for someone to say that LeBron was just padding his stats by hitting those 3's late in the game. 

That was one nasty monster of a game by him, and the amazing part is how much room to improve he's got. Limitless, basically.


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## Ballscientist

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> Individual talent is overrated beyond the 1 or 2 best players on a team... once you have a few talented players, it's more important to have good teamwork, established roles, and a team identity that the players can have confidence in... the Cavaliers have none of these other things yet.
> 
> They're so frustrating to root for because they don't have to be losing. It's not like the Knicks or the Magic where they just don't have enough talent.


I agree. Like Clips last season, the problem is the head coach?


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## JNice

33,16, and 7 from an 18 yr old. Crazy stuff. Crazy. Crazy.

And some people thought he was all hype. I just hope guys with questionable attitudes like Davis and Miles don't bring down his career ..


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## NugzFan

33 pts/16 rebs/L or 12 pts/8 rebs/W (or whatever stats melo had)...hmmm, which would you rather have?


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## Like A Breath

Honestly, from a high school rookie, 33/16.


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## jdg

> Originally posted by <b>Like A Breath</b>!
> Honestly, from a high school rookie, 33/16.


I agree! I think both of these guys are only starting their journey. They aren't gonna win games for their teams yet, but just wait. LeBron just amazes me. He showed tonight that he can come out of a bad game and just turn things around right away. There is no such thing as a slump for this guy past one game.

And Nevus, I sorta agree with your point about playing him at the 4. I think he could pull a Magic and play whatever position, if he wanted to. But he is happiest and at his best at the point, so why move him, unless you have a serious lack somewhere else?


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## BobbyDigital32

Yea Ill give Mr. James props, but what about Mr. Gasol and his 37 points, 11 rebounds, 5 blocked shots, and the victory?


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## Like A Breath

It gets less exciting to talk about statlines after a player's rookie season. Hence, no more Yao and Stoudemire threads.


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## BobbyDigital32

> Originally posted by <b>Like A Breath</b>!
> It gets less exciting to talk about statlines after a player's rookie season. Hence, no more Yao and Stoudemire threads.


Yea I know, but Im already tired with always talking about LeBron.  Oh well I guess its just me.


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## Nevus

> Yea Ill give Mr. James props, but what about Mr. Gasol and his 37 points, 11 rebounds, 5 blocked shots, and the victory?


Gasol had a great game, and Mike Miller and Shane Battier played very well also. Lots of guys seem to play well against the Cavaliers.

And NugzFan, you're absolutely right. LeBron made his team lose, and Carmelo made his team win, it's that simple. If LeBron had only had much worse stats, his team would have had a chance to win, like Team Carmelo did. And the Nuggets are certainly lucky that Carmelo didn't have 33/16/7, or else they may have lost. Hello! I am the master of logic!


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## Johnny Mac

The Nuggets are headed by Andre Miller (26), Marcus Camby (29), and of course Carmello. They have old veterans who know how to win and play roles. Carmelo doesnt play as much of the leadership role for the Nuggets as Lebron does for his team. 

The Cavs are a bunch of guys under 25 trying to learn how to win.


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## MDTS and MCTS

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 33 pts/16 rebs/L or 12 pts/8 rebs/W (or whatever stats melo had)...hmmm, which would you rather have?


Did anyone even mention Carmelo? or say something like Lebron is better than him?


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## benfica

*He lost*

Those 8 TO by Lebron killed the Cavs. He took too many shots
and only got to the free throw line twice in 55 minutes of play
thats not good at all, Paul Gasol got to the free throw line alot with 13-18, also Paul only took 20 shots in 48 minutes.

Also, you didn't have to be a great rebounder to get 16 in that game with close to 200 shots taken and half missed. With 55 minutes of playing time he should have had more than 20
with all those missed shots.

Just telling it like it is. I realize he is only 18, but he is shooting like he is already a superstar and the Cavs are one of the worst teams in the league. 

But I though Shane Battier was the best player on that court.


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## MemphisX

Just another tidbit from that game: Mike Miller took over at the point after J Will went down with back spasms and had 13 assists. Now where are those Jerry West is stupid threads? *LOL* :grinning:


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## kflo

lebron brings so much good to the cavs. he'll ultimately lead them to many victories. right now, he plays a part in them being competitive and entertaining, but he's also a part in them losing. with the good comes the bad, and people should accept that. with the accolades are going to come observations about his negatives as well.

where he is at his age is certainly incredible. and he'll learn. but alot of blame gets tossed elsewhere and alot of justifications for the losing come out. but part of that is the kid.

usually, when a perimiter star has a bad team, you can point to defense and rebounding as the culprits. cleveland is among the best rebounding teams in the league, and remarkably they're among the best defensive teams in the league (fg% against). they just don't win.

he'll be great. he's not there yet. right now, they'll take the good with the bad.


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## hobojoe

Yea guys, how about Mike Miller? I always wondered why the Magic didn't try him at point guard when he was in Orlando. I thought he was capable of handling position, as he played it in College at UF and seemed to handle it quite nicely. In Memphis he doesn't need to be a PG because they have J-Will, but why did he never get a chance to play the point in Orlando? 

-rukahS capuT


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## hobojoe

*Re: He lost*



> Originally posted by <b>benfica</b>!
> Those 8 TO by Lebron killed the Cavs. He took too many shots
> and only got to the free throw line twice in 55 minutes of play
> thats not good at all, Paul Gasol got to the free throw line alot with 13-18, also Paul only took 20 shots in 48 minutes.
> 
> Also, you didn't have to be a great rebounder to get 16 in that game with close to 200 shots taken and half missed. With 55 minutes of playing time he should have had more than 20
> with all those missed shots.
> 
> Just telling it like it is. I realize he is only 18, but he is shooting like he is already a superstar and the Cavs are one of the worst teams in the league.
> 
> But I though Shane Battier was the best player on that court.


What are you talking about? He was the leading rebounder in the game, what more do you expect from your starting Point Gaurd? 

-rukahS capuT


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## thegza

Lebron James had a very good game but those 8 TO's killed the Cavs, too. James is gonna be a very special player but we must remember he got those monster stats in 2 OT's, so just wait and see. The kid is definately special.

Carmelo Anthony's playing his role perfect. We must remember his team is 10-6 and his first priority is to win ball games, and it doesn't seem to be the same for LeBron. Anthony is playing at an amazing level this season and has proved he is a leader down the stretch. He wants the ball in the 4th quarter and is clutch. 'Melo should be ROY.


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## bender

> Originally posted by <b>Andre</b>!
> ... his first priority is to win ball games, and it doesn't seem to be the same for LeBron.


Of course it is LeBrons priority, too. What else should it be? Losing as many games as possible?


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## tpb2

The Cavs have great individual players but basketball is about team play. I watched the game and it seemed like James made some turnovers because everyone was standing around and not coming to help on double and triple teams.

LeBron is more explosive than T-Mac and Kobe. I saw a second gear last night. He went to the hoop like it was nothing. Plus, he is an awesome handler on the run like someone said. If he gets on the run, he should just go to the hoop because he can "slow" himself down in the air and roll it in or dish.

LeBron isnt getting any calls. The have called him fro charging when it's just an acting flop on many occassions. Last night, he got hacked twice and didnt get the call, and he should have gotteb two more three point plays. Maybe the refs want to show him up.

Cavs need: inside defense, better decision making, a moving offense for four quarters


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## tpb2

What role do you want LeBron to play? The Cavs' problems are beyond LeBron.


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## kflo

the cavs problems include lebron. for now. he'll get better and so will the cavs. but to think that lebron doesn't play a role in the teams woes is naive right now, imo. his talent is such that they must rely on him. but he's not at a point yet where he can consistently lead the team to victory. they rebound, they defend, they don't win. some of that falls on lebron. it doesn't mean he's not a tremendous talent, just that there will be growing pains in relying on an 18 year old who doesn't have the experience right now.


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> the cavs problems include lebron. for now. he'll get better and so will the cavs. but to think that lebron doesn't play a role in the teams woes is naive right now, imo. his talent is such that they must rely on him. but he's not at a point yet where he can consistently lead the team to victory. they rebound, they defend, they don't win. some of that falls on lebron. it doesn't mean he's not a tremendous talent, just that there will be growing pains in relying on an 18 year old who doesn't have the experience right now.


Wisdom does prevail! :yes:


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## Nevus

> Lebron James had a very good game but those 8 TO's killed the Cavs, too. James is gonna be a very special player but we must remember he got those monster stats in 2 OT's, so just wait and see. The kid is definately special.


He did have about 28, 13, and 4 in regulation. Still a great game.

And I don't understand how anyone can say his first priority is not victory for his team. He was the leader late in this game, and with a bit more experience he would have succeeded.

Do you think he hit those threes to keep them in the game so it could go to 2OT just to play more minutes and pad his stats, but ultimately lose? Great plan, right?


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## jokeaward

What other 18 yr old could play like this?

Yeah, he got 8 TOs, less than 20 games into his age 18 season. For shame.

Heck, a lot of NBA PGs drafted as college seniors could only get the 8 TOs.


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## Jockrider

To bad those turnovers cost them the game. Winning should be the priority not looking good.


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## Jockrider

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> the cavs problems include lebron. for now. he'll get better and so will the cavs. but to think that lebron doesn't play a role in the teams woes is naive right now, imo. his talent is such that they must rely on him. but he's not at a point yet where he can consistently lead the team to victory. they rebound, they defend, they don't win. some of that falls on lebron. it doesn't mean he's not a tremendous talent, just that there will be growing pains in relying on an 18 year old who doesn't have the experience right now.


You said it better than I have been trying to. Thnaks for showing the world that there is still smart people out there.


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## Like A Breath

> Originally posted by <b>Jockrider</b>!
> To bad those turnovers cost them the game. Winning should be the priority not looking good.


Are you somehow implying that Bron got those turnovers because he wasn't trying to win?


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## Jockrider

> Originally posted by <b>Like A Breath</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you somehow implying that Bron got those turnovers because he wasn't trying to win?


Not at all. I don't think he is Pete Rose throwing games, just young and very inexeperienced and not a PG.


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## Like A Breath

> Originally posted by <b>Jockrider</b>!
> Not at all. I don't think he is Pete Rose throwing games, just young and very inexeperienced and not a PG.


1. What has he doen to show you that he cares more about stats than the win?
2. He is very young and inexperienced, you're right about that.
3. Why don't you think he's a point guard?


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## tpb2

Maybe we should just stop talking about him. I mean, no matter what he does, it's not good enough for people. If you watched the game, you could see that the Cavs were nothing without him and that his TOs didnt even stand out from the rest of the team.


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## Jockrider

> Originally posted by <b>Like A Breath</b>!
> 
> 
> 1. What has he doen to show you that he cares more about stats than the win?*Never said that, just the hypesters think that is the only thing that matters*
> 2. He is very young and inexperienced, you're right about that.*Of course*
> 3. Why don't you think he's a point guard? *Pretty obvious isn't it. He is better suited for SG or SF.*


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## AL9045

Monster game and a great player. I didn't see the game, but it sounds like 2 of the TO's he made were costly to the Cavs chance of winning, BUT everyone remember when Kobe took those shots in a playoff game or something like that?

Lebron is still developing and gaining experience, that's what scares me.


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## futuristxen

> Why don't you think he's a point guard? Pretty obvious isn't it. He is better suited for SG or SF.


 No. Not really. Not to anyone who has actually watched him play. There's really no logical reason why he isn't a PG. He's got the handles, he's got the passing. Sure he committed TO's tonight. But so does Kirk Hinrich, a 4 year senior who the Bulls staff compared to a young John Stockton. Why not go a little more in depth in your analysis here. Tell us what you have seen from this kid in games that makes you think point guard isn't his most effective position.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Like A Breath</b>!
> Honestly, from a high school rookie, 33/16.


um...what good are stats if they lose. good stats are good because they often increase you chances to win. THATS why they are good. they are not good alone. ill take the worst stats and a W anyday. its all about the Ws. im sick of losing.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> Gasol had a great game, and Mike Miller and Shane Battier played very well also. Lots of guys seem to play well against the Cavaliers.
> 
> And NugzFan, you're absolutely right. LeBron made his team lose, and Carmelo made his team win, it's that simple. If LeBron had only had much worse stats, his team would have had a chance to win, like Team Carmelo did. And the Nuggets are certainly lucky that Carmelo didn't have 33/16/7, or else they may have lost. Hello! I am the master of logic!


you are also the master of not understanding anything. go try again. thanks.


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## JNice

I cant believe people are trying to find a way to bash this 18 yr old. Absolutely ridiculous. Lebron's growth as a player is much more important than the Cav's win/loss record at this point. And not only did he put up monster stats, that some people say mean nothing (if convenient to their argument), but the game was also a learning experience. I don't hear anyone crying when J Kidd has one of his 8 turnover games, or AI.

When was the last time any of the haters saw an 18 yr old kid put up those kind of numbers? Gimme a break.

Oh, and as for Lebron not being a point .. at some point he might not be playing the position, but only because the Cavs need him to score more. But he already is one of the top 5 passers in the NBA at 18 yrs old .. if not higher.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>fairweather fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Did anyone even mention Carmelo?


not until i did.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 
> 
> um...what good are stats if they lose. good stats are good because they often increase you chances to win. THATS why they are good. they are not good alone. ill take the worst stats and a W anyday. its all about the Ws. im sick of losing.


For the Cavs, it isnt all about the Ws. It is about developing players and their team.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Andre</b>!
> 
> Carmelo Anthony's playing his role perfect. We must remember his team is 10-6 and his first priority is to win ball games, and it doesn't seem to be the same for LeBron.


Based on what does it seem that winning isn't LeBron James' focus?


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> For the Cavs, it isnt all about the Ws. It is about developing players and their team.


oh thats too bad.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 
> oh thats too bad.


Not really, since neither the Cavs or Nuggets are going anywhere particularly meaningful this season, anyway. Therefore, a few more or less wins, this season, aren't very important. What's important is what these teams are developing for the future, when they *might* go somewhere impressive.

Would you rather have the next Glen Robinson and 10 extra wins this season or the next Michael Jordan and 10 fewer wins this season?

Me, personally, I'll take the next Jordan and fewer wins this season. This season isn't all that important, but a great one who can win championships in the future *is* important.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Not really, since neither the Cavs or Nuggets are going anywhere particularly meaningful this season, anyway. Therefore, a few more or less wins, this season, aren't very important. What's important is what these teams are developing for the future, when they *might* go somewhere impressive.
> 
> Would you rather have the next Glen Robinson and 10 extra wins this season or the next Michael Jordan and 10 fewer wins this season?
> 
> Me, personally, I'll take the next Jordan and fewer wins this season. This season isn't all that important, but a great one who can win championships in the future *is* important.


:clap: 

Exactly.


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## JuniorNoboa

I am so tired of the freakin Glenn Robinson comparisons. Yes they were similar players in college, and had comparable games when Glenn Robinson was actually a GOOD AND GROWING OFFENSIVE PLAYER. Glenn Robinson is a headcase, whose career went in a downward trend after four seasons. 

So why should we project Anthony career to grow in the same abnormal way as Robinson's. Makes alot of sense  

Until Melo proves to be a selfish headcase, the people that say Melo is Glenn, should go take a course in logic.



As for Lebron, my respect for him went up infinitely once the season began. I had my "all hype" concerns, but he will obviously be a great one. The Cavs record is obviously not his fault.


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## HallOfFamer

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> Would you rather have the next Glen Robinson and 10 extra wins this season or the next Michael Jordan and 10 fewer wins this season?
> 
> Me, personally, I'll take the next Jordan and fewer wins this season. This season isn't all that important, but a great one who can win championships in the future *is* important.


Whoa, excellent point. Smartest thing I've heard in this thread.:yes:


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## Like A Breath

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Not really, since neither the Cavs or Nuggets are going anywhere particularly meaningful this season, anyway. Therefore, a few more or less wins, this season, aren't very important. What's important is what these teams are developing for the future, when they *might* go somewhere impressive.
> 
> Would you rather have the next Glen Robinson and 10 extra wins this season or the next Michael Jordan and 10 fewer wins this season?
> 
> Me, personally, I'll take the next Jordan and fewer wins this season. This season isn't all that important, but a great one who can win championships in the future *is* important.




Exactly. It's better to see your franchise players progress because their teams won't even matter for a few years.

:yes: 5 star rating.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> So why should we project Anthony career to grow in the same abnormal way as Robinson's. Makes alot of sense


There's no need to project Anthony's career like Robinson's. I don't know in what sense other people compare him to Robinson, but I mean a Robinson-like *talent*. Not a Robinson-like career.

I've mentioned before that I think Melo is a talent that could well be a perennial All-Star. Which, clearly, G. Robinson is not. So, I'm *not* projecting Anthony's career to follow Glen Robinson's. Just that they are similar types of players with, possibly, similar talent levels. Melo is free to do more, or less, with that.


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## Nevus

> um...what good are stats if they lose. good stats are good because they often increase you chances to win. THATS why they are good. they are not good alone. ill take the worst stats and a W anyday. its all about the Ws. im sick of losing.


Are you saying that if LeBron had scored less in this game and rebounded the ball less, the Cavs would have had a better chance to win?

Would you have liked him to do less, or more? Are you saying that Carmelo's 12 points and 7 rebounds or whatever on 5-14 shooting help his team more than 33 points and 16 rebounds on 50% shooting helped the Cavaliers?

If LeBron didn't put up such good stats, would the Cavaliers even have been in the game?


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## Like A Breath

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 
> 
> um...what good are stats if they lose. good stats are good because they often increase you chances to win. THATS why they are good. they are not good alone. ill take the worst stats and a W anyday. its all about the Ws. im sick of losing.


Are you saying that when Jordan dropped 63 points against the Celtics in his first playoffs, it wasn't good? It gives promise towards his future, just like LeBron gives hope to Cleveland and basketball fans in general.


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## JuniorNoboa

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> There's no need to project Anthony's career like Robinson's. I don't know in what sense other people compare him to Robinson, but I mean a Robinson-like *talent*. Not a Robinson-like career.
> 
> I've mentioned before that I think Melo is a talent that could well be a perennial All-Star. Which, clearly, G. Robinson is not. So, I'm *not* projecting Anthony's career to follow Glen Robinson's. Just that they are similar types of players with, possibly, similar talent levels. Melo is free to do more, or less, with that.



Really. In your exact words you said:

"Would you rather have the next Glen Robinson and 10 extra wins this season or the next Michael Jordan and 10 fewer wins this season?"

Seems to be like you were suggesting a Glenn Robinson career path.


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## Nevus

> Really. In your exact words you said:
> 
> "Would you rather have the next Glen Robinson and 10 extra wins this season or the next Michael Jordan and 10 fewer wins this season?"
> 
> Seems to be like you were suggesting a Glenn Robinson career path.


I think Minstrel just meant in terms of talent, not career.


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## tpb2

> Not really, since neither the Cavs or Nuggets are going anywhere particularly meaningful this season, anyway. Therefore, a few more or less wins, this season, aren't very important. What's important is what these teams are developing for the future, when they might go somewhere impressive.


Yes. 

But isnt fun talking about the records of two teams that are not even going to the playoffs in order to compare two players? The Rookie comparison by team record is now officially the weakest attempt to knock on James. Before it was the "but, he's really only 6'5'' thread", but this just can not be ignored. 

Melo isnt exactly taking care of the ball too.


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## Nevus

As for taking care of the ball... Carmelo is averaging 3 turnovers and about 3 assists, while James is averaging 3.7 turnovers and between 6 and 7 assists. He's only turning the ball over less than one more time per game than Carmelo despite being the point guard and playing 41 minutes. I think he's doing fine in this regard.


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## DJRaz

*oh the misery*

the lebron carmello battle rages on. for some reason people have to choose. i mean sure there's the ROY but we have all season to see how that progresses. i don't think both guys will maintain the similiar numbers for the season. 

if the ROY is picked based on pure stats, then math will decide. if it's based on mvp-like effect i have to go with lebron. he's a pure sensation. carmello is an excellent rookie and nugz fans have every reason to defend him. but i just don't think he's better than lebron in the long run. carmello could be great, could be hall of fame, or could be glenn robinson. but there's really no doubt that lebron will be great. he's one of the more difficult players to handle in the L already and he's getting better every night. his stats lines are inconsistent but sick at times.

the cavs won-loss record isn't critical. it needs to improve, more for morale than anything. they need to learn how to win. they aint going to the playoffs this year anyway. and the nugz are out west so it don't really matter how little they suck. there's an upper echelon of teams out there that young rebuilding squads like the cavs and nugz can't hang with, not in a 7 game series. so carmello's team having a few more wins than lebron's team does not color my review of their respective performances. lebron is putting up slightly better numbers than carmello *AND* running his team every night. there's a lot more weight on lebron's shoulders.


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## JNice

Sad thing is, if Lebron doesn't lead his team to title by the time he is 22, there will probably be people calling him a failure. How about everyone just enjoy both these guy's magnificence.


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## "Matt!"

So...who's better...Kobe or T-Mac?





(Just kidding mods  )


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## JuniorNoboa

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> I think Minstrel just meant in terms of talent, not career.


So they have the same talent base. Fine, but you should then say that he has the same talent as Glenn Robinson, NOT THE NEXT GLENN ROBINSON. Very, very poor logic.

Minstrel, for you it might only be a point of semantics as you realize that Carmelo could well be a perennial all star.

But others look at Glenn's current play and use it an indictment against Melo's potential. Ridiculous.


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## Nevus

> So they have the same talent base. Fine, but you then say he has the same talent as Glenn Robinson, NOT THE NEXT GLENN ROBINSON. Very, very poor logic.


 Communication is so frustrating!


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## JNice

*Re: oh the misery*



> Originally posted by <b>DJRaz</b>!
> slightly better numbers than carmello **AND** running his team every night. there's a lot more weight on lebron's shoulders.


Good points. I think that is the best point right there. Of all the things to do on the basketball court, imo as a rookie, the easiest thing to do is focus on scoring. Not only has Lebron put up impressive stat lines, but he is playing PG and being successful at it at 18 yrs old. Before this year I dont think anyone would have conceeded that an 18 yr old out of HS could come into the NBA and be successful at the PG position right away or even within a couple of years.

I think most of the people arguing for Lebron are not putting Carmelo down at all and actually like Carmelo, but IMO, there is no question who is more talented and who will be the overall best player. I don't think there is anything on the court, besides posting up, that Carmelo does better than Lebron.


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## JuniorNoboa

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> Communication is so frustrating!


Roll your eyes all you want. Frankly, I don't give a crap.

Once some people (not Minstrel) stop using the Glenn Robinson comparisons as an indictment against Melo's future potential, then I will get peeved at the "next Glenn Robinson" comments.


What's next the "Billy Owens" comparison. I mean they both went to SU, they both were top three picks, both were not great athletically, both were smart all around players. 

So Carmelo will suck like Owens did. Oh wait this comparison has already been done by some dolt in SI.


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## futuristxen

Melo has Glen Robinson talent--RIGHT NOW. The thing that is going to seperate him is that he has a great head on his shoulders. If Glen Robinson had the mentality of a Larry Bird or Michael Jordan then he had the talent to be an all-time great. Melo will be very very good. He might just end up being a top 10 great. I think Lebron has a real shot at being top 3, though. Right now it's all about looking at what they have and projecting into the future. Its not an exact science to be sure. But I fail to see how one of these guys will succeed at the expense of the other. It's always Melo vs. James. When it should be Melo AND James, as part of one of the best draft classes of all-time. Again. Anyone who is ripping James for the Cavs losing right now will look foolish by the end of the year. As bad as they are, they are still in the eastern playoff picture. And they are playing very competitive ball. Once they get over the hump and start winning these games down the stretch(which comes with experience) then they are going to be a very dangerous team. Give Silas time. This was a 17 win team last year, and unlike the Nuggets last year, they played like it. The Nuggets last year just didnt have the talent, but they played tough every night. Last year the Cavs were the exact opposite. Talent, but no effort or intelligence. It takes time to turn that around. I still think that the Cavs will get into the playoffs this year. The east is too close together. And Silas is moving this team in a positive direction. So long as he can keep their attention through this early losing, they'll be fine down the stretch. Paul Silas' teams always play better the second half of the season.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Not really, since neither the Cavs or Nuggets are going anywhere particularly meaningful this season, anyway. Therefore, a few more or less wins, this season, aren't very important. What's important is what these teams are developing for the future, when they *might* go somewhere impressive.
> 
> Would you rather have the next Glen Robinson and 10 extra wins this season or the next Michael Jordan and 10 fewer wins this season?
> 
> Me, personally, I'll take the next Jordan and fewer wins this season. This season isn't all that important, but a great one who can win championships in the future *is* important.


too bad you believe that. what a shame.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> I am so tired of the freakin Glenn Robinson comparisons. Yes they were similar players in college, and had comparable games when Glenn Robinson was actually a GOOD AND GROWING OFFENSIVE PLAYER. Glenn Robinson is a headcase, whose career went in a downward trend after four seasons.
> 
> So why should we project Anthony career to grow in the same abnormal way as Robinson's. Makes alot of sense
> 
> Until Melo proves to be a selfish headcase, the people that say Melo is Glenn, should go take a course in logic.
> 
> 
> 
> As for Lebron, my respect for him went up infinitely once the season began. I had my "all hype" concerns, but he will obviously be a great one. The Cavs record is obviously not his fault.


yup.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you saying that if LeBron had scored less in this game and rebounded the ball less, the Cavs would have had a better chance to win?
> 
> Would you have liked him to do less, or more? Are you saying that Carmelo's 12 points and 7 rebounds or whatever on 5-14 shooting help his team more than 33 points and 16 rebounds on 50% shooting helped the Cavaliers?
> 
> If LeBron didn't put up such good stats, would the Cavaliers even have been in the game?


no im saying the stats dont mean much if they lose. its not his fault but the cavs team has to make some changes. stast mean NOTHING if they lose.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Like A Breath</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you saying that when Jordan dropped 63 points against the Celtics in his first playoffs, it wasn't good? It gives promise towards his future, just like LeBron gives hope to Cleveland and basketball fans in general.


it was good.

but they lost. 

apparently some fans here care more about players than teams. im a nuggets fan first. thats just how i think.


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## NugzFan

*Re: oh the misery*



> Originally posted by <b>DJRaz</b>!
> 
> if the ROY is picked based on pure stats, then math will decide. if it's based on mvp-like effect i have to go with lebron. he's a pure sensation. carmello is an excellent rookie and nugz fans have every reason to defend him. but i just don't think he's better than lebron in the long run. carmello could be great, could be hall of fame, or could be glenn robinson. but there's really no doubt that lebron will be great. he's one of the more difficult players to handle in the L already and he's getting better every night. his stats lines are inconsistent but sick at times.


if its stats, give it to bron so far. if its mvp, it goes to melo so far. hes the one helping his team win in the west. cavs are in the east and playing poorly. 

id rather have 40 wins and no ROY than 20 and ROY. i could care less about melo vs bron. bron is awesome. i saw the grizz game.


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## Nevus

> if its stats, give it to bron so far. if its mvp, it goes to melo so far. hes the one helping his team win in the west. cavs are in the east and playing poorly.
> 
> id rather have 40 wins and no ROY than 20 and ROY. i could care less about melo vs bron. bron is awesome. i saw the grizz game.


The problem, NugzFan, is that you come into threads about LeBron James and start talking about how the Nuggets are winning games and the Cavaliers aren't as if you are making a point about LeBron. So what is the point you are always trying to make?

If your point is just that the Nuggets are a better team than the Cavaliers so far, that's true, but how is it relevant to LeBron James? The Cavaliers are a better team than the Magic, but I don't see people bringing that up in every thread about Tracy McGrady.

If that's not your point, then what is it? If you have no relevant point, then why do you post the Nuggets' record and the Cavs' record in every thread about LeBron?


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## hobojoe

Is it possible for you to put all of your ideas into one post at a time NugzFan? It's really annoying. Thanks. 

-rukahS capuT


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## AL9045

Stop freaking comparing Lebron and Carmelo in every thread that has to do with the Cavs, Lebron or the Nugz, Carmelo.

Both are having pretty good rookie years, but I don't think we should still be debating their talent until like 5 years from now and we'll see how their teams are doing.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> The problem, NugzFan, is that you come into threads about LeBron James and start talking about how the Nuggets are winning games and the Cavaliers aren't as if you are making a point about LeBron. So what is the point you are always trying to make?


nothing. im just an ego maniac and i like seeing words that i post.



> If your point is just that the Nuggets are a better team than the Cavaliers so far, that's true, but how is it relevant to LeBron James? The Cavaliers are a better team than the Magic, but I don't see people bringing that up in every thread about Tracy McGrady.


well thats because you are lazy.



> If that's not your point, then what is it? If you have no relevant point, then why do you post the Nuggets' record and the Cavs' record in every thread about LeBron?


but i dont do that.




















(haha yeah i do...who am i kidding)


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> Is it possible for you to put all of your ideas into one post at a time NugzFan? It's really annoying. Thanks.
> 
> -rukahS capuT


cant do that. im allergic to doing that. sorry.


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## drewson

NugzFan 
BasketballBoards Veteran




Status: Offline
Registered: Jul 2002
*Location: I love the bulls!!!*
Posts: 2393

Post Quality Rating: 

(120 Votes)

I'm a Nuggets fan !!!! I've always been a Nuggets fan !111


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## tpb2

Nuggets > Cavs = Majority of people here think so

LeBron > Carmelo = Majority of people here think so


LeBron on the Nuggets now would be scary. I've watched a ton of Cavs' games and he really is in a bad situation. If he only had to score and pick up boards at the 3, he would be scoring 23-25 on the nuggets.


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## Johnny Mac

Some of you people who make a terrible GM if you'd take bad stats and a W before great stats and a L. 

You'd have a team of Steve Kerrs and Robert Horrys saying "where is MJ? where is Duncan? where is Hakeem?" 

When comparing INDIVIDUAL players, you cant value winning over ability.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> Really. In your exact words you said:
> 
> "Would you rather have the next Glen Robinson and 10 extra wins this season or the next Michael Jordan and 10 fewer wins this season?"
> 
> Seems to be like you were suggesting a Glenn Robinson career path.


And how do my "exact words" suggest career path? I think you read into them what you wanted to.

My statement was meant as, "Would you rather have the next Glenn Robinson *talent* and 10 extra wins this season or the next Michael Jordan *talent* and 10 fewer wins this season?" I figured the word "talent" in each case was implied, but evidently you chose to take it a different direction.

So, to clarify further, when I analogized Lebron James as Michael Jordan, I wasn't suggesting that James will average 37 points per game in a season, feud with a coach, not win a huge amount until he gets a Hall of Fame 6'8'' small forward for a teammate and then win six championships with a time out, in between, for baseball.

In case you thought I meant "career path" in regards to Michael Jordan, too.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> 
> So they have the same talent base. Fine, but you should then say that he has the same talent as Glenn Robinson, NOT THE NEXT GLENN ROBINSON. Very, very poor logic.


Uh, no. You're simply calling your preference in phrasing superior logic. It isn't. It's a descriptive phrase that can be used in various ways, depending on context or meaning. I've already explained my meaning.

"The next Glenn Robinson" does not, necessarily, imply career path. Just as when people say "X is the next Michael Jordan," they *never* mean career path (six titles, several retirements, etc). They mean "talent." They mean that so-and-so could be the next greatest player ever.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>drewson</b>!
> NugzFan
> BasketballBoards Veteran
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Status: Offline
> Registered: Jul 2002
> *Location: I love the bulls!!!*
> Posts: 2393
> 
> Post Quality Rating:
> 
> (120 Votes)
> 
> I'm a Nuggets fan !!!! I've always been a Nuggets fan !111


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> Nuggets > Cavs = Majority of people here think so
> 
> LeBron > Carmelo = Majority of people here think so
> 
> 
> LeBron on the Nuggets now would be scary. I've watched a ton of Cavs' games and he really is in a bad situation. If he only had to score and pick up boards at the 3, he would be scoring 23-25 on the nuggets.


me > majority of people here. :yes: 

(and i dont mean in terms of size...im not fat! im talking about coolness and awesomeness and stuff)


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Some of you people who make a terrible GM if you'd take bad stats and a W before great stats and a L.
> 
> You'd have a team of Steve Kerrs and Robert Horrys saying "where is MJ? where is Duncan? where is Hakeem?"
> 
> When comparing INDIVIDUAL players, you cant value winning over ability.


some of you people would be really [strike]dumb and suck[/strike] in real life all the time and by some of you i mean you john.

Lets please keep insults out of this thread*Petey


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> me > majority of people here. :yes:
> 
> (and i dont mean in terms of size...im not fat! im talking about coolness and awesomeness and stuff)


John The Cool Kid would have something to say about that.


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> some of you people would be really [strike]dumb and suck[/strike] in real life all the time and by some of you i mean you john.
> 
> Lets please keep insults out of this thread*Petey


I just deducted 14 pts from your coolness meter.


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## NugzFan

damnit. wtf was i thinking? gotta get my head back in the game. these mental mistakes are killing me!


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## Johnny Mac




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## JuniorNoboa

> My statement was meant as, "Would you rather have the next Glenn Robinson talent and 10 extra wins this season or the next Michael Jordan talent and 10 fewer wins this season?" I figured the word "talent" in each case was implied, but evidently you chose to take it a different direction.


When Talent = Results you can start saying that is implied in your statement. Due to the fact that in the history of sports talent has never equaled individual results, I am taking the statement in the right direction - sorry I will not give in here. Now, I know what you meant is not what was said so I will move on  and end this silly little argument.

But I hope you appeciate, the problem I have with people saying the he is the next Glenn Robinson. People misinterpret that statement. Robinson is such a waste of talent. His talent, projects to a much better player then he ever did become. PEOPLE ARE SEVERELY UNDERRATING THE TALENTS THAT GLENN ROBINSON HAD - HE JUST NEVER PUT IN THE EFFORT.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

For you all arguing with nugzfan: don't even try. He's the classic example of a homer. He'll twist every fact possible to make it look like his team/players are better.

This is the bottom line in the Carmelo/Lebron debate: Lebron is better. If he was on the Nuggets right now we'd probably be 13-3, which is a scary thought. That said, I don't understand how people are contributing the Nuggets' success to Carmelo. The kid is shooting the ball at a horrible clip and is pretty selfish on the floor. His scoring ability has been a welcome addition to this team and he has hit the boards a lot harder than I thought, but to be honest with you, I think Rodney White could be doing just as good if not better than Carmelo right now, with better defense (commence the stone throwing). Carmelo still hasn't proven to me that his first concern is the team winning. He has already had problems with Andre Miller and hasn't shown much of a willingness to get teammates involved. Lebron, on the other hand, is all about his team. I watched the first Denver/Cleveland game and I saw an oncommon maturity from a non-veteran player. Ricky Davis was hogging the ball and Darius Miles was taking questionable shots, so what does Lebron do? The next three possessions he dumps the ball into Llgauskas - the simple and effective play. I just don't see a lot of NBA players, let alone 19 year-old rookies, doing that. Lebron is clearly the better player and when he gets the right people around him, Cleveland will be better than Denver.


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## tpb2

> This is the bottom line in the Carmelo/Lebron debate: Lebron is better. If he was on the Nuggets right now we'd probably be 13-3, which is a scary thought. That said, I don't understand how people are contributing the Nuggets' success to Carmelo. The kid is shooting the ball at a horrible clip and is pretty selfish on the floor. His scoring ability has been a welcome addition to this team and he has hit the boards a lot harder than I thought, but to be honest with you, I think Rodney White could be doing just as good if not better than Carmelo right now, with better defense (commence the stone throwing). Carmelo still hasn't proven to me that his first concern is the team winning. He has already had problems with Andre Miller and hasn't shown much of a willingness to get teammates involved. Lebron, on the other hand, is all about his team. I watched the first Denver/Cleveland game and I saw an oncommon maturity from a non-veteran player. Ricky Davis was hogging the ball and Darius Miles was taking questionable shots, so what does Lebron do? The next three possessions he dumps the ball into Llgauskas - the simple and effective play. I just don't see a lot of NBA players, let alone 19 year-old rookies, doing that. Lebron is clearly the better player and when he gets the right people around him, Cleveland will be better than Denver.


Exactly.


On the Nuggets success with Melo:
"Correlation does not imply causation" - a basic universal rule some of you should learn to understand


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## Nevus

> For you all arguing with nugzfan: don't even try. He's the classic example of a homer. He'll twist every fact possible to make it look like his team/players are better.
> 
> This is the bottom line in the Carmelo/Lebron debate: Lebron is better. If he was on the Nuggets right now we'd probably be 13-3, which is a scary thought. That said, I don't understand how people are contributing the Nuggets' success to Carmelo. The kid is shooting the ball at a horrible clip and is pretty selfish on the floor. His scoring ability has been a welcome addition to this team and he has hit the boards a lot harder than I thought, but to be honest with you, I think Rodney White could be doing just as good if not better than Carmelo right now, with better defense (commence the stone throwing). Carmelo still hasn't proven to me that his first concern is the team winning. He has already had problems with Andre Miller and hasn't shown much of a willingness to get teammates involved. Lebron, on the other hand, is all about his team. I watched the first Denver/Cleveland game and I saw an oncommon maturity from a non-veteran player. Ricky Davis was hogging the ball and Darius Miles was taking questionable shots, so what does Lebron do? The next three possessions he dumps the ball into Llgauskas - the simple and effective play. I just don't see a lot of NBA players, let alone 19 year-old rookies, doing that. Lebron is clearly the better player and when he gets the right people around him, Cleveland will be better than Denver.


Excellent! Post of the month! :yes:

As far as I am concerned, this topic is concluded.


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## JuniorNoboa

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> Excellent! Post of the month! :yes:
> 
> As far as I am concerned, this topic is concluded.



It's a horrible post, only enjoyed by Anthony bashers. Anthony is much better then he is given credit for in this post - "A Selfish Player". Right  Then again on the opposite side of the spectrum, we have the Denver is winning because of Anthony which is wrong as well. 

Look Melo haters, I understand how you are pissed off that Lebron is getting unjustifiably bashed. But you are all getting in childish fits when someone says Melo is as good as Lebron, and you take it out on Melo.

Look, Lebron is and will be better then Melo. But why do you insist on bringing down Melo to ridiculous levels. Rodney White??? Please...


----------



## The OUTLAW

*Back to the original topic of the thread*

There was one play in particular that got my attention during the Cavs/Memphis game. And it was a turnover.

LeBron was bringing the ball up on kind of a slow fast break and stopped at just to the right of top of the key. He had the ball in his right hand. All in the blink of an eye he flipped the ball to his right hand and threw a lightning fast bounce pass threw the lane to a player who not thinking there was anyway that he was getting the ball had let up and the ball harmlessly bounced out of bounds. Anyone who saw the game has to remember this because it was one of the most marvelous looks and passes that I've seen anyone make especially through traffic and once Cavs players start to believe that when they are open that he will find them then maybe they will get some wins under their belts.


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## DJRaz

us lebron fans are just getting so defensive anymore. 

when he was in high school -- overrated was the label. carmello was leading his college team to a championship, lebron was only playing against fat white kids. yeah right.

when he was drafted and hyped -- WAY overrated was the label. carmello was supposedly light-years ahead of lebron.

when he started dropping near triple doubles every night -- the cavs suck, so lebron is just padding his stats. 

i've finally resigned to the fact that he's really really good and the haters will be forced to give in. i hated larry bird for a long long time. thought he was overrated. then i just understood it one day. the mental block was gone and i finally accepted that he was a brilliant ball player. 

i travel the country and no matter where i go and talk basketball there's someone who sticks with carmello as the ROY. that's fine, his numbers are really good and his team is hot right now. but what i find interesting is everyone who makes that point makes it like they want to fight, they want to talk ish. so just by the tone of their voices i know that they know lbj is the roy.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> It's a horrible post, only enjoyed by Anthony bashers. Anthony is much better then he is given credit for in this post - "A Selfish Player". Right  Then again on the opposite side of the spectrum, we have the Denver is winning because of Anthony which is wrong as well.
> 
> Look Melo haters, I understand how you are pissed off that Lebron is getting unjustifiably bashed. But you are all getting in childish fits when someone says Melo is as good as Lebron, and you take it out on Melo.
> 
> Look, Lebron is and will be better then Melo. But why do you insist on bringing down Melo to ridiculous levels. Rodney White??? Please...


I'm not a Carmelo hater. How many Denver games have you watched this year, by the way?


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## JuniorNoboa

About 4 or 5. And they were amongst his poorer outings.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> About 4 or 5. And they were amongst his poorer outings.


You've seen 4 or 5 games. I've seen every damn one. Your credibility compared to mine is non-existent. Get on. It really pisses me off when people don't have enough information to make an accurate analysis of a situation yet are quick to call the opinion of someone who does have that information "horrible". Get the hell on.


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## JuniorNoboa

You will have seen many more games then people from NBA teams who will scout the Nuggets when there are trade possibilities in the future.

So after those scouts have seen a Nugs player play 3 or 4 games, will you still know more then them?

Now I am not saying I am as smart as a scout (defintely not) nor am I sure that I am a better analyzer then you.

But the mere fact of watching less games does not always make you less capable of making valid assessments then someone who has seen every game.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> Whatever. You've seen more games, but if you can't analyze the game then it doesn't mean much does it.


I can analyze the game. If you've actually been watching the games you'd realize there are MANY possessions that Carmelo totally hogs the ball. At the end of the third quarter in the game against Dallas we had the ball for the last possession. Andre Miller has been getting to the basket all year long so Bzdelik called a pick on the wing. Carmelo was the one who was suppose to set the pick. So what does he do? He slipped the pick and didn't even get open under the basket. And then he had the gull to get mad at Andre for not passing him the ball. I've been watching basketball for awhile and I can't remember the last time I saw someone slip a pick in lieu of setting one at the end of a quarter, especially when the play was set and the point guard can drive to the basket at will. This is only one example, to say nothing of his ball hogging tactics. Carmelo is certainly not the most selfish player there is and at times, I think his will to win is misinterpreted as selfishness. But the as of right now, the guy is selfish. Will that change? Maybe. But I've watched every game this year and it's clear to me that the guy is selfish. Besides, I have nothing against Carmelo. I think he has superb scoring ability and a strong will to win. But there's no way I'm going to say he's better than Lebron, nor am I going to attribute the Nuggets' success to Carmelo. As for Rodney White, if he jacked up sixteen shots a night he would have the same success Carmelo is, maybe even a little better. He is also better on the defensive end (after improving vastly from last year) and can hit the boards a little harder. Again, when you have a basis to stand on, then you can call my opinion horrible. In the meantime, leave the discussion to those who know what they're talking about.


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## JuniorNoboa

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> 
> 
> I can analyze the game. If you've actually been watching the games you'd realize there are MANY possessions that Carmelo totally hogs the ball. At the end of the third quarter in the game against Dallas we had the ball for the last possession. Andre Miller has been getting to the basket all year long so Bzdelik called a pick on the wing. Carmelo was the one who was suppose to set the pick. So what does he do? He slipped the pick and didn't even get open under the basket. And then he had the gull to get mad at Andre for not passing him the ball. I've been watching basketball for awhile and I can't remember the last time I saw someone slip a pick in lieu of setting one at the end of a quarter, especially when the play was set and the point guard can drive to the basket at will. This is only one example, to say nothing of his ball hogging tactics. Carmelo is certainly not the most selfish player there is and at times, I think his will to win is misinterpreted as selfishness. But the as of right now, the guy is selfish. Will that change? Maybe. But I've watched every game this year and it's clear to me that the guy is selfish. Besides, I have nothing against Carmelo. I think he has superb scoring ability and a strong will to win. But there's no way I'm going to say he's better than Lebron, nor am I going to attribute the Nuggets' success to Carmelo. As for Rodney White, if he jacked up sixteen shots a night he would have the same success Carmelo is, maybe even a little better. He is also better on the defensive end (after improving vastly from last year) and can hit the boards a little harder. Again, when you have a basis to stand on, then you can call my opinion horrible. In the meantime, leave the discussion to those who know what they're talking about.


All is Cool.

All I'm saying is that the people who hate Melo (the people that applauded your post), are going to use your original post to say that he is nothing and will be nothing. Selfish or not (I guess we will have to disagree on that one) we both admit that he has superb scoring ability, which others will not concede.

I have already said that Lebron is better and that Melo has played a role but is not the only /main factor in turning around the Nug

I was more amused by those who responded to your post. They only applauded it because they enjoy little snippets of your opinion ( like selfish, and poor defensively) as it supports their agendas.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

Yeah, I agree. Both sides are scrambling for ammo. Carmelo and Lebron are both fine players though.


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## JuniorNoboa

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> Yeah, I agree. Both sides are scrambling for ammo. Carmelo and Lebron are both fine players though.



Exactly both are fine players, Lebron just happens to be better. If sides weren't taken people can acknowledge this and accept both as future stars. Now people are looking to berate the other. 

I am only here to defend Melo, and will not attack the awesomeness that is James.


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly both are fine players, Lebron just happens to be better. If sides weren't taken people can acknowledge this and accept both as future stars. Now people are looking to berate the other.


Exactly. I don't understand why we have to pick between them. I find it very easy to like both of them. It's not like they are true rivals. They only will see each other twice a year until they both start going to NBA Finals. One plays pass-first PG, and the other shoot-first small forward. They aren't even in competition position wise.

I think Lebron is the best rookie right now. But I don't understand why that means I'm slighting Melo. You don't see people in here bringing up TJ Ford or Bosh or Wade everytime there is a lebron thread. it's always melo vs. james. People need to realize that it should be Melo And James. As in, Melo and James are two of the best rookies to come out of the same draft in the last several years.(A draft class that never ceases to amaze me.)


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> 
> On the Nuggets success with Melo:
> "Correlation does not imply causation" - a basic universal rule some of you should learn to understand


hey heres a thought - try reading my posts before making up crappy rules. 

show me where i said melo was better. show me. 

oops!


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> It's a horrible post, only enjoyed by Anthony bashers. Anthony is much better then he is given credit for in this post - "A Selfish Player". Right  Then again on the opposite side of the spectrum, we have the Denver is winning because of Anthony which is wrong as well.
> 
> Look Melo haters, I understand how you are pissed off that Lebron is getting unjustifiably bashed. But you are all getting in childish fits when someone says Melo is as good as Lebron, and you take it out on Melo.
> 
> Look, Lebron is and will be better then Melo. But why do you insist on bringing down Melo to ridiculous levels. Rodney White??? Please...


roddneytharippa is a HUGE rodney white fan. hence the comparison.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>DJRaz</b>!
> 
> 
> i travel the country and no matter where i go and talk basketball there's someone who sticks with carmello as the ROY. that's fine, his numbers are really good and his team is hot right now. but what i find interesting is everyone who makes that point makes it like they want to fight, they want to talk ish. so just by the tone of their voices i know that they know lbj is the roy.


:laugh:


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> 
> 
> You've seen 4 or 5 games. I've seen every damn one. Your credibility compared to mine is non-existent. Get on. It really pisses me off when people don't have enough information to make an accurate analysis of a situation yet are quick to call the opinion of someone who does have that information "horrible". Get the hell on.


ive seen all but 2-3 and your assessment of melo is highly inaccurate.


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## tpb2

> hey heres a thought - try reading my posts before making up crappy rules.




Try interpreting a post correctly. "Correlation does not imply causation" applies to Anthony not being the main reason the Nuggets are winning. It has nothing to do with LeBron being better. That phrase is universal in statistics and in any type of argument, but obviously you have not heard it. I do not want to pick at Melo but when you start posting the team records, an argument that has just about been shut down by everyone, I have no choice but to defend James. If it makes you happy, Denver is a better team right now and they know how to win as a TEAM. If you can not handle the post, do not try to come back to it like you do because it just makes the people here want to attack the reasoning. 



> show me where i said melo was better. show me.


On a separate issue, you do that when you post the records, but you said "oops" so I do not know if you are serious about this statement.

CARMELO ANTHONY IS A GREAT PLAYER, but I have to jump into the argument when you compare him to James. Now, you sort of implied that James is better here, so if you do think that, just say it so we can start talking about Melo's strengths compared to the rest of the league and not James.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> When Talent = Results you can start saying that is implied in your statement. Due to the fact that in the history of sports talent has never equaled individual results, I am taking the statement in the right direction - sorry I will not give in here.


Err, that's fine. But you proved exactly what I said.  Talent has never meant individual results. Therefore, when I compared Anthony to Robinson, I wasn't comparing expected results...just their talent.

The real question, as to who is right, is not whether Talent = Results. It's whether

Player Name = Player's Talent
or
Player Name = Player's Career

I think there's absolutely no way to logically prove that one of those equations is clearly right over the other. I assumed people would know what I meant, but you didn't, so I clarified. That all was fine...I have no problem clarifying a vague comment. It was your contention that what I said was logically incorrect that started this. And I certainly refuse to agree that you have logic on your side when you pick which of the two above interpretations you chose to go with. Either one is valid...your preference was to equate a player with his career rather than with his talent.

As I said before...when people compare young players to Jordan, or Pippen or Stockton...they never mean career comparisons...they mean similar talents. So, you're not going to be able to make a statement like, "Due to the fact that in the history of sports player name has never equaled talent..." because it often *has*.

Okay. Now *I'm* moving on, since neither of us wish to budge but wanted to get in final arguments. 



> But I hope you appeciate, the problem I have with people saying the he is the next Glenn Robinson. People misinterpret that statement. Robinson is such a waste of talent. His talent, projects to a much better player then he ever did become.


If you think people mean Melo will become a talent-wasting jump-shooter, then I see the problem you have with such comments. But most people seem to have a healthy respect for Anthony (just less than they have for James), so I don't think people mean that Melo will become a fringe good player when they compare him to Robinson. Of course, I can't speak for anyone but myself.


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## The OUTLAW

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> Yeah, I agree. Both sides are scrambling for ammo. Carmelo and Lebron are both fine players though.


I applaud this, Carmello is a fine player as is LeBron. Can't we all just get along.


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## tpb2

Minstrel makes sense.


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## Nevus

> I was more amused by those who responded to your post. They only applauded it because they enjoy little snippets of your opinion ( like selfish, and poor defensively) as it supports their agendas.


Are you a paranoid delusional mind-reader? No? Then why did you write this?

I agree with every word in that original post, not because I have an agenda but because I believe it was all true and very well written.


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## Like A Breath

Sad thing is, most of us will never be able to enjoy the early stages of their careers because they will always be the subject of numerous comparisons. I say just let them play. We have plenty of time to see who's better than who later on.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try interpreting a post correctly. "Correlation does not imply causation" applies to Anthony not being the main reason the Nuggets are winning. It has nothing to do with LeBron being better. That phrase is universal in statistics and in any type of argument, but obviously you have not heard it. I do not want to pick at Melo but when you start posting the team records, an argument that has just about been shut down by everyone, I have no choice but to defend James. If it makes you happy, Denver is a better team right now and they know how to win as a TEAM. If you can not handle the post, do not try to come back to it like you do because it just makes the people here want to attack the reasoning.
> 
> 
> 
> On a separate issue, you do that when you post the records, but you said "oops" so I do not know if you are serious about this statement.
> 
> CARMELO ANTHONY IS A GREAT PLAYER, but I have to jump into the argument when you compare him to James. Now, you sort of implied that James is better here, so if you do think that, just say it so we can start talking about Melo's strengths compared to the rest of the league and not James.


i never said melo is better. stop saying i do.


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## tpb2

Well since you made that clear, I'm off your back.


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