# OT: Grant Hill the latest Prostitute?



## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

It seems Grant Hill has become the latest basketball player to indicate his preference in finding a team that can win a ring for him. To me it's particularly disturbing because I feel Hill ought to give a little back to Orlando. He made $93M for about 2 years of play. The Magic have Howard, they just signed Lewis. We're not talking Atlanta here. 

Does he owe them? I say yes. Sure, a contract is a contract and that's over, but I'm talking real-life. Wouldn't you feel some obligation, especially when people generally describe you as classy?

This basketball story line is getting a little old. Aging star with no ring prostitutes himself so he can say he's won a ring. Sure there is a long line of this type, but players pretty much dictate where they'll play these days. Its not like the old days when they were restricted. Even when they're under contract they're dictating where they'll play. How about Payton prostituting himself not once, but twice. How about Finley acting like he's a helluva guy for saying he won't opt out of his $10M deal after he just got his ring. Of course, he's got the $52M Dallas owes him. Grant Hill just may be one of the worst examples of this behavior if he follows suit. Accepted almost $100M for a couple years work and now when they're coming around as a team he's looking to bolt.

The last line almost serves as a punch line. "If he has to make a financial sacrifice, he is willing to do that". What a guy. What a helluva guy. You'd do that for the Suns, Grant? What a helluva guy. As much a helluva guy as Finley who stated he won't opt out and will stay with the Spurs on his lowly $10M deal (with $52M due from Dallas)? I dunno. It's just so hard to choose.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

<embed width="440" height="380" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://video.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=4vcyy3n"></embed>


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Mr. T said:


> It seems Grant Hill has become the latest basketball player to indicate his preference in finding a team that can win a ring for him. To me it's particularly disturbing because I feel Hill ought to give a little back to Orlando. He made $93M for about 2 years of play. The Magic have Howard, they just signed Lewis. We're not talking Atlanta here.
> 
> Does he owe them? I say yes. Sure, a contract is a contract and that's over, but I'm talking real-life. Wouldn't you feel some obligation, especially when people generally describe you as classy?
> 
> ...


Oddly enough, I've been podering the same things lately. I agree.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Mr. T said:


> To me it's particularly disturbing because I feel Hill ought to give a little back to Orlando. He made $93M for about 2 years of play.


The Magic had an insurance policy on Hill that paid his salary when he was injured and unavailable to play. They did pay some, and didn't get much for what they did pay...but it wasn't $93 million.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Solid post Mr T. I don't blame the players as much as I blame the Media for portraying them as taking a huge salary cut to go get a ring. I'm sure a lot of these Vets are nice and polite men, but the fact that they took a Few Million Dollar deal isn't a huge deal. They were still getting paid on the side or they've made enough cash to have the next 5 generations of their family having no finance issues.

I do wonder, if Hill is to be a cherry-picker, why not go to San Antonio? It's just like Florida, the hot-spot for soon to be Retirees.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

If Paxson has built a real NBA contender here, perhaps Hill will choose to play for the Bulls?


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

he doesn't owe Orlando a thing.
I believe he came to Orlando after surgery and their doctors declared him fit for a massive long term contract.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> If Paxson has built a real NBA contender here, perhaps Hill will choose to play for the Bulls?


Considering the number of trade rumors swirling about involving Kobe and KG and Pax telling the media he hasn't talked to either team...I'm starting to wonder if anyone has showed Pax how to dial out. Dude, dial '9' first.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

RoRo said:


> he doesn't owe Orlando a thing.
> I believe he came to Orlando after surgery and their doctors declared him fit for a massive long term contract.


Contractually speaking, this is correct. Is that the limit of ones moral compass?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> If Paxson has built a real NBA contender here, perhaps Hill will choose to play for the Bulls?


Except, , we've already got a pretty good player at his position.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

Mr. T said:


> Contractually speaking, this is correct. Is that the limit of ones moral compass?


as far as contracts go yes.

what's done is done. injuries happen all the time. 
should we ask Deng to take a million or two off his renegotiation because he missed some games with the wrist injury? 
if he missed two seasons we still wouldn't ask him to discount himself.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

RoRo said:


> as far as contracts go yes.
> 
> what's done is done. injuries happen all the time.
> should we ask Deng to take a million or two off his renegotiation because he missed some games with the wrist injury?
> if he missed two seasons we still wouldn't ask him to discount himself.


And if he missed 5 years to the tune of about $70M dollars? Not quite in the same ballpark as Deng and a few games.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

GB said:


> The Magic had an insurance policy on Hill that paid his salary when he was injured and unavailable to play. They did pay some, and didn't get much for what they did pay...but it wasn't $93 million.


My understanding was insurance would only pay when the player was no longer fit to play - period. Hill kept coming back. There was pressure to get him to accept a buyout so insurance could take over and pay but he never went for it. I think Orlando paid all $93M. Even if they didn't, he still sat there like a cap albatross did he not? That contract certainly made it harder to be competitive, right? 

Experts on the subject may be able to clarify.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

Mr. T said:


> And if he missed 5 years to the tune of about $70M dollars? Not quite in the same ballpark as Deng and a few games.


so what's the limit? 
when does a player become morally obligated to discount himself?

maybe i'm too rigid, but i don't see a difference if it's 1/2 a season and 1/2 a million vs 5 and 70M. 

it's not like Grant coasted the whole time saying 'ow' sit me for the year.
Afaik he made a geniuine effort to rehab and play each season he was there.
Now if that's not the case then you can start talking about morals and obligations, but at the moment i just it as extremely bad luck for Orlando. 

They could have protected themselves by having goals and incentives in his contract. i think Camby has some games played incentives because he has a history of injuries as well. If we go after Mihm, i hope we get something along those lines as well.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> *Hill owes Magic not to scratch this 7-year itch
> *David Whitley
> <DIR>SPORTS COMMENTARY
> </DIR>They say that breaking up is hard to do.
> ...


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-whitley0207jul02,0,4077312.column


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

I was kind of hoping the Bulls got Hill if Deng went in the Gasol trade.

Hill/Nocioni would have been a nice stopgap to make a run in the East next season.

I have no problems with Hill working where he chooses.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> I was kind of hoping the Bulls got Hill if Deng went in the Gasol trade.
> 
> Hill/Nocioni would have been a nice stopgap to make a run in the East next season.


He's been injured far too many times for far too long for me to put any faith in him in a Bulls uniform.



> I have no problems with Hill working where he chooses.


I agree with you there.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

RoRo said:


> so what's the limit?
> when does a player become morally obligated to discount himself?


Each guy has his own compass. If I were in his shoes, I'd stay with Orlando. They'll still be a good team so if he has the competitive spirit it won't be like he's laboring in outer Mongolia.

Is a kid stealing a video game at the store the same thing as what Lay and Fastow stole? Wasn't one much worse and didn't it have more far reaching consequences? At what point were they over the line?


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## Snake (Jun 10, 2007)

I guess he has the right to play where he chooses. But someone has to call him out (it's what we're doing here) and say "Hey Grant, WTF man, You took a ****load of money and the Magic were in the gutter for years because of your huge contract and now you're gonna bail!"


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> I have no problems with Hill working where he chooses.


Sure, he can work wherever he chooses. Since he's considering his options he's probably not conflicted about it either. Doesn't mean it's a classy decision though. I'd argue it's becoming an annoying trend.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> I was kind of hoping the Bulls got Hill if Deng went in the Gasol trade.
> 
> Hill/Nocioni would have been a nice stopgap to make a run in the East next season.
> 
> I have no problems with Hill working where he chooses.


Agree that it's a moot point unless and until Deng is traded.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Snake said:


> I guess he has the right to play where he chooses. But someone has to call him out (it's what we're doing here) and say "Hey Grant, WTF man, You took a ****load of money and the Magic were in the gutter for years because of your huge contract and now you're gonna bail!"


Agreed. Then again, he turned down max dollars from Detroit where he was beloved to join McGrady in Orlando where he could save some money on his $93M contract by avoiding state taxes. Remember when that was all the rage? I guess the taxes on his minimum deal won't be so problematic. So in retrospect, maybe I'm not so surprised after all.

You're absolutely right though, Snake. This *IS* about calling him out. Not like the national media is likely to speak out against him. He'll be the next Cinderella story. They tried for Malone, they got it for Payton, and they got it for Finley. And did anybody really give a damn? 

Jud Buechler has three rings in case anybody cares.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Interesting topic, particularly given Hill's almost saint-like rep.

Clearly, you're bound to be disappointed if you look for loyalty or fairness in these sorts of things. There's little doubt in my mind that the Magic would have gotten out from under Hill's contract if there was any sort of legal way to do it.

I doubt that Magic management is surprised in the least, but I can see how Magic fans would have negative feelings about Hill.

Personally, since I wasn't outraged that Pippen didn't give any money back to the Bulls from his second stint with the team (definitely like stealing), I can't really fault Hill for doing what he's doing.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

transplant said:


> Interesting topic, particularly given Hill's almost saint-like rep.
> 
> Clearly, you're bound to be disappointed if you look for loyalty or fairness in these sorts of things. There's little doubt in my mind that the Magic would have gotten out from under Hill's contract if there was any sort of legal way to do it.
> 
> ...


I agree about this depending on where you stand on loyalty. I really didn't care about Pippen's second stint either, but I think that had more to do with what he did in his first stint. Plus, Pippen broke down and couldn't play. Hill is actually coming back where he can play.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

3 years ago, around 4 years into his contract, Hill had played so few games that his contract was going to expire. He could have sat out one season and the Magic could have voided his contract. Still, though it was crystal clear that he was never going to solve his ankle issues and live up to his contract, he played another 20 game season and got the rest of his contract guaranteed (3 years at around 45 million). I don't blame him for doing that. 

I *would* be upset if he were to leave now. Hill tied up most of their cap space for 7 years. He was part of the reason they couldn't build around McGrady and now Dwight Howard. Weisbrod and Smith are two of the worst GMs in the history of the league, but you can't say that the franchise deserved his albatross contract. John Nash seemed to be a decent GM and got fired partly because of Hill's contract. 

I realize these types of decisions are arbitrary, but I think he's an ******* if he leaves after all of this. He didn't intentionally screw the Magic, but sometimes intentions don't matter. If they want him to stay, he should stay. I think he owes them that.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Grant Hill could have given up a long time ago and still collected every penny of his Orlando contract from Lloyds of London.Instead he's worked very hard to return to the game in spite of the difficulties.

I don't see how Grant or anyone else owes anyone an explanation for what they choose to do with their own lives.If you don't like it tough ****.It is none of your business what he does with his life.It's not like Grant Hill has twenty years left to wait for your favorite team to get their act together and make his decisions based on what other people think he should do.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Diable said:


> Grant or anyone else owes anyone an explanation for what they choose to do with their own lives.If you don't like it tough ****.It is none of your business what he does with his life.It's not like Grant Hill has twenty years left to wait for your favorite team to get their act together and make his decisions based on what other people think he should do.


That would be correct if we were talking about his personal life. We're not. He's a public figure and it's all fair game. If what RWJ reports is accurate, I'd think even less of him if he left.

The Magic were hamstrung BECAUSE OF Hill's contract. I think they do have their act together and he can finally help them. What's the problem Grant?

And btw, my favorite team is the Bulls.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

I'm willing to let the Magic fans worry about the morality of the situation. I will say that injuries are often unavoidable and by all accounts Hill did everything in his power and then some to get on the court.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> *Retirement Can Wait, Grant Hill Wants to Play in the Finals*
> 
> *The last time **Grant Hill** talked about his future, **he was still unsure if he even wanted to play next year**, let alone re-sign with the Magic. After serving as an analyst for ABC's coverage of the NBA Finals, though, his mind is made up: he wants to play, and he wants to play for a legitimate contender. From the **Orlando Sentinel**: *
> 
> ...


http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007...-wait-grant-hill-wants-to-play-in-the-finals/

Well, at least wants to contribute to the ring somewhat (you listening Gary Payton?) 

So let me see if I've got this. If we signed Deng to a max deal and then watched him suffer the same type of fate...while eating our cap space...refusing to retire...only to begin becoming valuable again when the deal was up, we'd all be good with him going to a contender in an attempt to get him the ring he covets?

Personally, I'm seeing some colossal threads here flaming the guy 24x7.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I'm willing to let the Magic fans worry about the morality of the situation. I will say that injuries are often unavoidable and by all accounts Hill did everything in his power and then some to get on the court.


That's sort of like saying the Kobe/Colorado situation was for Lakers fans to worry about, isn't it?


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## laso (Jul 24, 2002)

Personally, I think Grant Hill has become somewhat meaningless. The magic will do just as well without him and he will contribute very little to any other team he joins to try to get his ring. I don't think he has a starting spot on either of the Bulls, Cavs, Pistons, Heat, Spurs, Mavs, Suns, etc.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

<TABLE cellSpacing=8 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=wiretap_key_header>Grant Hill Heads To Phoenix



</TD></TR><TR><TD>_July 5, 2007 - 12:16 pm_</TD></TR><TR><TD>







_Florida Today - _
Free agent forward Grant Hill has agreed to sign with the Phoenix Suns for a one-year, $1.2 million dollar contract. 

Hill spent the past seven years with the Orlando Magic . He endured numerous injuries during his tenure with the Magic and never re-gained the all-NBA status he possessed earlier in his career with the Detroit Pistons . 

This past season, he averaged 14.4 points per game and helped lead the young Magic to their first playoff berth in four years.


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
* * *

*In related news. Pau Gasol has decided to opt out of his contract and sign with the Nets. Pau cited has long-standing desire to win a playoff game. When asked if he intended the move to "win a ring", Pau replied, "baby steps, man, baby steps".*


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Meh, at least he picked a team with a style of play that will render him completely ineffective.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Meh, at least he picked a team with a style of play that will render him completely ineffective.


What? Grant Hill is great in an open court game.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Can he stay healthy in an open court game? Probably not.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Is he Gary Payton in Los Angeles or Gary Payton in Miami? :biggrin:


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

J797, I just don't think Hill will be able to keep up a high pace for very long. His signing with Phoenix reminds me very much of Jalen Rose signing there last year. Obviously Hill's a much better version of Rose now, but it's the same basic template. Skilled offensive player, can't move anymore.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

A young, healthy Grant Hill would have KILLED in Phoenix.

The version they're getting? Well, who knows, I guess. Its possible it'll work out. But I have serious doubts about it.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

How can you dislike a guy for wanting to win? Don't you play sports to win the game? Despite Dwight Howard, Orlando is still a mess. 

Retire or one last chance at the ring? Personally if the Bulls don't win it all next year, I'll probably be pulling for Phoenix. I love D'Antoni and thought he got a raw deal in Denver. Have always loved Nash's game...He plays with the speed of Jason Williams but with the decision making ability of Stockton. I'ved also loved watching Grant Hill play the game, he has never been a selfish player and played both sides of the ball. 

In regards to Hill not choosing Chicago, so what? If I want a broken down old player wanting cash and a run at a ring, why not sign Scottie for another run? Sadly, I doubt Scottie would work as cheap as Hill. 

and isn't the idea of Hill on the Bulls redundant? Why would you want a Grant Hill when you got the Hawk?


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

L.O.B said:


> How can you dislike a guy for wanting to win? Don't you play sports to win the game? Despite Dwight Howard, Orlando is still a mess.
> 
> Retire or one last chance at the ring? Personally if the Bulls don't win it all next year, I'll probably be pulling for Phoenix. I love D'Antoni and thought he got a raw deal in Denver. Have always loved Nash's game...He plays with the speed of Jason Williams but with the decision making ability of Stockton. I'ved also loved watching Grant Hill play the game, he has never been a selfish player and played both sides of the ball.
> 
> ...


I certainly understand why they did and what they want, arguably one last time. That doesn't mean I have to like what I am seeing. Prostituting themselves for a ring.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

He'll be spending his time in the bench, just like Jalen Rose, did last season.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Mr. T said:


> It seems Grant Hill has become the latest basketball player to indicate his preference in finding a team that can win a ring for him. To me it's particularly disturbing because I feel Hill ought to give a little back to Orlando. He made $93M for about 2 years of play. The Magic have Howard, they just signed Lewis. We're not talking Atlanta here.
> 
> Does he owe them? I say yes. Sure, a contract is a contract and that's over, but I'm talking real-life. Wouldn't you feel some obligation, especially when people generally describe you as classy?
> 
> ...


I haven't read the comments here but looking at Grant Hill's career, he had so many injuries in Orlando, he could've quit whenever he wanted and taken all the money with it. Instead, he worked hard because he loves the game of basketball and owes it to the fans of Orlando and the organization and just kept fighting with injuries. 

Grant Hill is also truly a class act (with a very fine wife might I add) and IMO deserves a ring with everything he had to deal with. I hope he has a nice time with Phoenix and have success.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-magic-hill&prov=ap&type=lgns

It's actually a two year contract with the second year being a player option.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

bullybullz said:


> I haven't read the comments here but looking at Grant Hill's career, he had so many injuries in Orlando, he could've quit whenever he wanted and taken all the money with it. Instead, he worked hard because he loves the game of basketball and owes it to the fans of Orlando and the organization and just kept fighting with injuries.
> 
> Grant Hill is also truly a class act (with a very fine wife might I add) and IMO deserves a ring with everything he had to deal with. I hope he has a nice time with Phoenix and have success.





rwj333 said:


> 3 years ago, around 4 years into his contract, Hill had played so few games that his contract was going to expire. He could have sat out one season and the Magic could have voided his contract. Still, though it was crystal clear that he was never going to solve his ankle issues and live up to his contract, he played another 20 game season and got the rest of his contract guaranteed (3 years at around 45 million). I don't blame him for doing that.
> 
> I *would* be upset if he were to leave now. Hill tied up most of their cap space for 7 years. He was part of the reason they couldn't build around McGrady and now Dwight Howard. Weisbrod and Smith are two of the worst GMs in the history of the league, but you can't say that the franchise deserved his albatross contract. John Nash seemed to be a decent GM and got fired partly because of Hill's contract.
> 
> I realize these types of decisions are arbitrary, but I think he's an ******* if he leaves after all of this. He didn't intentionally screw the Magic, but sometimes intentions don't matter. If they want him to stay, he should stay. I think he owes them that.<!-- google_ad_section_end --><!-- / message -->


http://www.basketballforum.com/chic...ant-hill-latest-prostitute-2.html#post4874018


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Mr. T said:


> http://www.basketballforum.com/chic...ant-hill-latest-prostitute-2.html#post4874018


I don't care. Put him in your shoes. What would you have done?? Probably quit and taken all the money that you could've taken. 

Now the question I want to ask you regarding Grant Hill (since we are talking morality here) is which is the right way (morality)??? Retire after a couple of failed seasons in Orlando and taken 30-50 million dollars (everyone calling you a loser, gave up, money got into his head) or keep fighting with the injury and try and earn every penny of his contract for which he had agreed and signed with Orlando??

I'd probably taken the former but man, what he did was truly amazing. 

No one can change my opinion regarding Grant Hill. He kept playing in Orlando because he loves the game of basketball and owes it to the Orlando fans and the organization. Who could blame him for that??


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

My mind isn't changing either and I've read the whole thread. He should have stayed in Orlando.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Mr. T said:


> My mind isn't changing either and I've read the whole thread. He should have stayed in Orlando.


I was thinking, what is the benefit of Grant Hill staying in Orlando (thinking not only from Hill's perspective but also Orlando's perspective)?? Thinking from your perspective though, since he 'cost' the Magic sooo much, wouldn't you and Orlando fans/management be happy to see him go?? To try and forget all the 'painful bad memories' the Magic had endured because of Hill...


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> The news took the Magic by surprise to a degree, for General Manager Otis Smith said he had expected Hill to return.
> 
> When asked whether there had been a mutual decision for Hill and the club to part ways, Smith said, "No. We had anticipated Grant being here. . . .
> --
> Hill played shooting guard last season for the Magic, chasing and going against quicker, smaller players. He said one factor in his decision to leave was that he wanted to return to his natural position -- small forward.


Orlando Sentinal


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

bullybullz said:


> No one can change my opinion regarding Grant Hill. He kept playing in Orlando because he loves the game of basketball and owes it to the Orlando fans and the organization. Who could blame him for that??


Did you not read that post? He kept playing because he had a *huge* financial incentive to keep playing -- half of his contract would have been voided if he had retired. 

He loves playing so much that he's going to a team where's he going to average fewer minutes.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> Did you not read that post? He kept playing because he had a *huge* financial incentive to keep playing -- half of his contract would have been voided if he had retired.
> 
> He loves playing so much that he's going to a team where's he going to average fewer minutes.


It also might keep him healthy and he would be in the playoffs. Phoenix will definitely be playing more basketball than Orlando.


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