# Is Big Ben the most to blame for the brawl?



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Pacers Can't Shake Stigma of Brawl

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8116-2005Feb8.html



> Everywhere they play, the two are surrounded by reporters with questions about that night. Jackson noted the irony of how little attention he received before the brawl.
> 
> "It's crazy," Jackson said. "I won a championship [with the San Antonio Spurs]. I didn't get in any trouble and I didn't get no publicity. That's crazy. I guess you got to do something bad to get publicity."
> 
> ...


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## Silverdale (Dec 25, 2004)

YES


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

Yes, because Ben Wallace threw a beer at Artest, he then proceeded to somehow convince Ron Artest to run into the crowd and attack an innocent guy. Not only was Ben able to convince Ron to run into the stands, but he also convinced Stephen Jackson to go into the stands and start swinging like a wild man.

I don't care too much for what JO did, because the fans were on the court, but his running/sliding punch to a guy who wasn't a threat to him, doesn't give him any right to criticize.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

To me, what is almost more jarring then the brawl itself, is that the Pacers players REFUSE to take responsibility for their own actions. Unbelievably petty and small of them.


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## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

It was everyone's fault......If Artest wouldnt of had the hard foul Ben wouldnt of pushed him......if Ben doesnt push Artest then Ron doesnt sit on the table.......If Ben doesnt throw towel at Artest and raise his hands to get the crowd pumped up the crowd doesnt feel like they have to go at Artest......If fan doesnt throw beer at Artest then Ron doesnt go take shots at people in crowd.....if guy off camera doesnt throw beer at Jackson then Jackson doesnt appear to be as crazy as he looks......If fans dont go on court O'Neal doesnt hit fan.......

It goes on and on and on and on and on........I dont blame one person.....I blame them all.....but I dont feel like getting back into this whole debate again.....

What I find most humorous is that players on both teams actually get along......its the media and the biased fans who keep trying to stir this stupid thing up......

And that is all this thread is going to do......just starting a bunch of crap....oh boy.....


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## Lope31 (Jun 11, 2002)

I still say John Green is the one that started the brawl. Ben Wallace started the fight but fights happen all the time.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> "Because nobody threw a cup until he was throwing stuff at Ron.


I hadn't thought of that angle until reading it there, but it makes quite a bit of sense. I know if I was drunk, I'd be more inclined to join in something that someone else was doing. I still place the majority of the blame on John Greene though. Nothing was too out of the ordinary until his actions.


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## white360 (Apr 24, 2004)

The ycan shake eachothers hands


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## Lope31 (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> I still place the majority of the blame on John Greene though. Nothing was too out of the ordinary until his actions.


For some strange strange reason I feel like I agree with you...help.

:grinning:


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## Dellio (Dec 23, 2004)

I blame Darko. If that SOB had improved at all, maybe he would have been in for mop up time instead of leaving Ben in.  



















P.S. Yes, I am kidding.


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## PistonFAN81 (May 30, 2003)

No...I think that it is john greene's fault. I mean if he wouldnt have thrown the beer then none of this would have happened. I mean what happened to ben and ron would mean nothing. I mean ben shouldnt have pushed artest but then again artest shouldnt have pulled down ben, I am not saying that artest deserved it or anything like that though


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> To me, what is almost more jarring then the brawl itself, is that the Pacers players REFUSE to take responsibility for their own actions. Unbelievably petty and small of them.


Seriously, what do you expect out of common street thugs?


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## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> 
> Seriously, what do you expect out of common street thugs?


What does that make Roy Williams? He attacked a fan at an autograph signing.... I dont agree with what they did but calling them "thugs" seems a little bit over the top to me


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> 
> 
> What does that make Roy Williams? He attacked a fan at an autograph signing.... I dont agree with what they did but calling them "thugs" seems a little bit over the top to me


Ok...........we will call them common street thugs that have millions of dollars and play basketball for a living rather than raping and pillaging. Just because they have money doesn't change the fact of what they truly are.


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## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> 
> Ok...........we will call them common street thugs that have millions of dollars and play basketball for a living rather than raping and pillaging. Just because they have money doesn't change the fact of what they truly are.


You conveniently didnt answer the question about Roy Williams.....

And you are comparing hitting somebody after they throw a drink on you to raping a pillaging a town......You can say some intelligent things sometimes then you go and do some dumb stuff like that......


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> 
> 
> You conveniently didnt answer the question about Roy Williams.....


Football Roy Williams?


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## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Football Roy Williams?


Yeah at a WDFN show when they had Killer Kowalski and Roy Williams on the air...after the show Roy Williams said he was done signing autographs and this one guy wouldnt leave him alone....finally Roy went up and started to push him until Killer broke them up.....nothing was really said in the news because no punches were thrown or anything but the guy is suing Roy Williams.....Stoney and Wojo pretty much had an entire show on it back in December....

I am not trying to stand up for Artest or anything guys.....I am just saying that I do understand why atheletes go after fans sometimes....Artest isnt the first guy to go after a fan


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah at a WDFN show when they had Killer Kowalski and Roy Williams on the air...after the show Roy Williams said he was done signing autographs and this one guy wouldnt leave him alone....finally Roy went up and started to push him until Killer broke them up.....nothing was really said in the news because no punches were thrown or anything but the guy is suing Roy Williams.....Stoney and Wojo pretty much had an entire show on it back in December....


Oh ok, this is my first time hearing of this.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> You can say some intelligent things sometimes


I respectfully disagree.


P.S. Pacer players have said that what happened was not good.


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

I did not comment on the Roy Williams thing for two reasons. 

#1- I have not heard a peep about it until now.

#2- I didn't know if you were talking about our Roy Williams or the lesser Roy Williams in Dallas or where ever that guy plays.

Also, Roy Williams is not a thug. He never has been and never will be. He can also put together complete sentences and is an asset to the community, team and NFL.


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## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> I did not comment on the Roy Williams thing for two reasons.
> 
> #1- I have not heard a peep about it until now.
> ...


Fair enough.....I just like to debate with you sometimes.....

OT: What you think about Fonsworth going to the Tigers today?


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

Farnsworth is going to be a star. He has a very LATE breaking slider that can reach the low 90s and a fastball that can hit triple digits but is consistently in the 97-99 mph range. He should be able to dominate in our weak division for the most part and I believe eventually he will become our closer if he can calm down. He can be a bit of a wild man and lets his emotions get the best of him. 

I believe that this pick up means that Uggie is gone(especially if Rodney is healthy, then Farnsworth will be set up man) and will be packaged with either White or Higgy for a "real" centerfielder, perhaps Cameron. Tigers management is showing the world that they want to win this year not in 2006 as all the so-called experts are saying. Farnsworth seems to be prone to giving up the long ball so Comerica should help with that.

Great pick up and a positive step in the right direction.


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## PistonFAN81 (May 30, 2003)

I cant believe that about Roy though. I wonder what this guy was doing? I mean he seems like such an easy going person to start pushing a fan it must have been something big. Do you know anything else about this? I mean I dont remember hearing anything about it though. But I really dont listen to WDFN the whole football season because of all the Lion bashing it drives me crazy sometimes


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

Jason Whitlock of the Kansas City Star writes about what he thinks of Jermaine O'Neal's actions following the brawl. Whitlock has appeared on ESPN's The Sports Reporters. I never really cared for him too much, because his breathing drones out the other guys talking. But, with this piece he really nails it on the head. Very good read.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/050210


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Jason Whitlock of the Kansas City Star writes about what he thinks of Jermaine O'Neal's actions following the brawl. Whitlock has appeared on ESPN's The Sports Reporters. I never really cared for him too much, because his breathing drones out the other guys talking. But, with this piece he really nails it on the head. Very good read.
> 
> 
> ...


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Idiot.
> ...


Maybe you should take a spelling class and learn how to spell "definitely", since you have misspelled it countless times on these forums.

Troll.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> 
> Maybe you should take a spelling class and learn how to spell "definitely", since you have misspelled it countless times on these forums.
> ...


I don't think they offer classes dedicated to spelling. The word definately doesn't even appear in my post. I'm just going to assume your on the pipe.


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

I never said it was in that post sucka.

Now go get your shine box!


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> I never said it was in that post sucka.
> 
> Now go get your shine box!


Then don't quote that post, queen.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

Noone really cares about you guys "battles", take that stuff to PM. How hard is it for you guys to ignore each other?

It looks bad for the board, who would join a site where this trhead is one of the first they see? Whatever else comes from you two about each other, I'm just going to delete it.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> Noone really cares about you guys "battles", take that stuff to PM. How hard is it for you guys to ignore each other?


I try, I really do. I have him on my ignore list, but everytime, I can't help myself from clicking the button to see his post.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal still doesn't get it.
> 
> Last week when the Pacers played in Washington, he told the Associated Press there wasn't enough blame assessed to the Pistons' Ben Wallace for the brawl at The Palace on Nov. 19.
> 
> ...


http://www.detnews.com/2005/pistons/0502/13/C04-88306.htm


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> there wasn't enough blame assessed to the Pistons' Ben Wallace for the brawl at The Palace on Nov. 19.


I have to cosign with Jermaine O'neal on that.



> Don't go up into the stands and fight a fan with a Ben Wallace jersey on."


Huh? O'neal didn't go into the stands. Perhaps Wallace never learned to count, so he can't tell the difference between #7 and #91 :whoknows:


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

Ben is basically calling him and the rest of the Pacers a bunch of "pussies" for not wanting any part of him or any other of the Pistons. 

<strike>No big surprise there though, the Pacers along with most of their fans are a bunch of spineless pansies.</strike>

No need to attack the entire fan base nmuman, you're better than that.

- DetBNyce


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

He was talkng about Artest.


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## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

ENOUGH 


Good God.... Everyone just stop .....

Dont make me pull out my hand and do a virtual ***** slap on all of you guys :laugh: 

DetBNyce......remember what we talked about before?......I think its time


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> 
> DetBNyce......remember what we talked about before?......I think its time


Yea, it'll be up today. 

This is crazy.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> He was talkng about Artest.


And I quote:



> But, as *Wallace pointed out, O'Neal seemingly can't differentiate between incidents that occur on a basketball court during a game* - such as Wallace's initial confrontation with Artest -- and those that spill over into the crowd.
> "He had the opportunity to do something on the court," Wallace said. "Don't act like you're tough. If he wanted to fight, we could've fought right there on the court. Don't go up into the stands and fight a fan with a Ben Wallace jersey on."


He's not talking about Artest.


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## Lope31 (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Yea, it'll be up today.
> ...


If it's what I'm thinking about then it's up now. Sorry I took so long, I had basketball practice.


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

I think that Wallace wants to fight Oneal. Isn't that what he was talking about? Ben certainly won't back down to anyone in this league. I don't think he'd even back down to Shaq.


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## PistonFAN81 (May 30, 2003)

I dont think so. I mean neither would back down, but thats not very smart for either athlete...


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

*Pacerguy*

Ben was reffering to Artest, Ben wanted a big piece of Artest but artest would have none of it( even after the cheesy foul that late in a blowout) Ben egged him but Artest didnt want to get pimp slapped on national tv. So when the opportunity to attack a tiny white dude( that didnt actually throw anything) presented itself, Artest along with that pathetic waste of skin Jackson ran like their a$$es were on fire. And who did Oneal hit? Oh thats right the fat guy that was tryin to get back to his feet. My hero!!!
I will be very surprised if he doesnt see serious legal action.
And he has the nuts to say that Ben deserved more? Ben kept it on the floor...Ben pushed Artest( which Oneal reffered to as assault) if a push in the face is assault? what the hell is cold cocking some guy that isnt even lookin?
I used to have some respect for these idiots, but now they are the red headed stepchild and should be beaten as such.
I can only hope Oneal is stupid enough to start something with Body at the allstar game. I would love to see Ben beat him like a [email protected] on payday...


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

*Re: Pacerguy*



> Originally posted by <b>Copper</b>!
> Ben was reffering to Artest, Ben wanted a big piece of Artest but artest would have none of it( even after the cheesy foul that late in a blowout) Ben egged him but Artest didnt want to get pimp slapped on national tv. So when the opportunity to attack a tiny white dude( that didnt actually throw anything) presented itself, Artest along with that pathetic waste of skin Jackson ran like their a$$es were on fire. And who did Oneal hit? Oh thats right the fat guy that was tryin to get back to his feet. My hero!!!
> I will be very surprised if he doesnt see serious legal action.
> And he has the nuts to say that Ben deserved more? Ben kept it on the floor...Ben pushed Artest( which Oneal reffered to as assault) if a push in the face is assault? what the hell is cold cocking some guy that isnt even lookin?
> ...


Pacerguyusa = Owned.

Oh and by the way, Oneal is being sued for MILLIONS!!!!!


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## Dellio (Dec 23, 2004)

*Re: Re: Pacerguy*



> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> 
> Pacerguyusa = Owned.
> ...


After this all happened, I talked to a friend of mine who is a defense attorney. He said the only way O'Neal is in trouble is if the guy can prove he was injured by the punch. As far as I know he wasnt, so I dont think O'Neal has much to worry about.


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

No offense but your friend must have gotten his degree from an online Univeristy.


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

*Dellio*

I would check with a different friend, Oneal assaulted that guy with no provocation. Oneal was in no immediate danger, nor did he have reason to fear for his or anyone elses safety( the guy was already down) Video clearly shows Oneal run in from the side and cold **** a defenseless person. I am not condoning this idiot for going onto the floor, or for fighting Artest( not much of a fight unless you consider Artest ***** slappin him a fight)
I am merely citing facts, At least here in canada. The law allows you to defend your person/ or any person in danger with reasonable force. No one was in danger from this idiot, he was tryin to get up and leave. What Oneal did was aggravated assault.
I guess if Oneal wants to see who got the stiffer or lesser punishment from the league? wait til the law hands down their decision. Ill be willing to bet that Ben doesnt recieve punishment from the law, why??? cause he kept it on the floor and didnt involve the fans..


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## Dellio (Dec 23, 2004)

*Re: Dellio*



> Originally posted by <b>Copper</b>!
> I would check with a different friend, Oneal assaulted that guy with no provocation. Oneal was in no immediate danger, nor did he have reason to fear for his or anyone elses safety( the guy was already down) Video clearly shows Oneal run in from the side and cold **** a defenseless person. I am not condoning this idiot for going onto the floor, or for fighting Artest( not much of a fight unless you consider Artest ***** slappin him a fight)
> I am merely citing facts, At least here in canada. The law allows you to defend your person/ or any person in danger with reasonable force. No one was in danger from this idiot, he was tryin to get up and leave. What Oneal did was aggravated assault.
> I guess if Oneal wants to see who got the stiffer or lesser punishment from the league? wait til the law hands down their decision. Ill be willing to bet that Ben doesnt recieve punishment from the law, why??? cause he kept it on the floor and didnt involve the fans..


You are missing the point. O'Neal will be found guilty of criminal charges. But to be found guilty in a civil suit, the person will need to show damages. If he wasnt injured, there were no damages.

If you go back to my original post I was commenting on the fact he is or will be sued for millions. Unless there was an injury, he has little to worry about in that case.

I am not arguing he will be found innocent of criminal charges. No doubt he will be found guilty and he will pay his fine and be on his way. I am saying there is little chance of him losing a civil suit. Unless he just pays the guy off so he doesnt have to go through a trial.


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

There are about a thousand things the guy can claim other than "physical injury". 

He will win.


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## Dellio (Dec 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> No offense but your friend must have gotten his degree from an online Univeristy.


Show me your law degree or show me precedent where a civil suit was won without any damages being incurred and I will agree with you. Until then, I will side with the person I know practices law.


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dellio</b>!
> 
> 
> Show me your law degree or show me precedent where a civil suit was won without any damages being incurred and I will agree with you. Until then, I will side with the person I know practices law.


I do not have a law degree, but I do have a bachelor of science in criminal justice and I am fully aware of the way in which the court system plays out. PM your address and I will send you a photocopy of my degree son.

He will file in Oakland County's 6th Circuit Court for damages over $25,000. This guy is going to win, whether he goes to trial or whether he settles out of court.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Pacerguy*



> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> 
> Pacerguyusa = Owned.
> ...


NOTE: I only read your message because it was in someone else's quote.

Is it even possible to be owned by someone of that mental capacity? I could quote each line of his containing fallacies, and type out my impeccable rebuttals, but it's not even worth it to respond to someone that types "A$$es." If, however, you really want to read it, I'll type it out upon your request.

As a side note, I think O'neal can easily win on the grounds that the man he hit had just tackled Artest, and was getting up to do it again.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

*Re: Pacerguy*

Eh, I'm bored, I'll do it anyway.



> Originally posted by <b>Copper</b>!
> Ben was reffering to Artest,


Wrong; I've already addressed this.




> Ben wanted a big piece of Artest but artest would have none of it


Ben got a piece of Artest, but the rest is true.




> So when the opportunity to attack a tiny white dude( that didnt actually throw anything) presented itself, Artest along with that pathetic waste of skin Jackson ran like their a$$es were on fire.


Okay, Artest ran up there, but he didn't attack the skinny white guy. He held him and asked him if he was the man who threw the cup. The guy said no, so Artest let him go. John Greene then attacks Artest, and another person throws beer on Artest. That's when Stephen Jackson struck the beer-thrower. In the meantime, Ben Wallace's brother is sucker punching Fred Jones in the back of the head while Jones is attempting to stop the fight.



> And who did Oneal hit? Oh thats right the fat guy that was tryin to get back to his feet. My hero!!!


I understand your admiration, because that was a sweet punch, and he protected Artest from being tackled by the man again.



> I will be very surprised if he doesnt see serious legal action.


He already has.




> And he has the nuts to say that Ben deserved more?


And rightfully so. As O'neal said, nobody was throwing anything until Wallace started throwing. There was no fighting until Wallace started it. Artest wanted no fight, but Wallace escalated it. Wallace doesn't deserve more blame that John Greene, the beer thrower, however, Wallace is more at fault than O'neal or Artest.




> Ben kept it on the floor...


So did O'neal.



> Ben pushed Artest(which Oneal reffered to as assault) if a push in the face is assault? what the hell is cold cocking some guy that isnt even lookin?


Both cases are assault.



> I used to have some respect for these idiots, but now they are the red headed stepchild and should be beaten as such.


Umm....I guess we don't use that metaphor in this part of the country. Sorry, can't address this.



> I can only hope Oneal is stupid enough to start something with Body at the allstar game. I would love to see Ben beat him like a [email protected] on payday...


I doubt it, because O'neal has already said that is was a terrible event that happened. Wallace however, I'm not sure about, because he doesn't like to let things go.

1. He couldn't let it go that his team was getting beat so badly that he had to hit Artest.

2. When Artest wants no part of it, Wallace continues gnarling and throwing items at Artest.


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

I see that you've crawled out of your hole.


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## Dellio (Dec 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> 
> I do not have a law degree, but I do have a bachelor of science in criminal justice and I am fully aware of the way in which the court system plays out. PM your address and I will send you a photocopy of my degree son.
> ...


Its a matter of opinion on your part I suppose. I will stick with my friend and the fact he is a lawyer.

Truth is, we could probably line up 100 lawyers and 50 would say he would win and 50 would say he would lose.

If the suit is filed, I imagine O'Neal will just pay him off so he doesnt have to bother with a trial even though he has an excellent chance at winning.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

I don't know much about civil court, but the guy Jermaine punched was knocked unconscious and taken to the hospital on a stretcher. I'd imagine there are some sort of damages associated with that. But millions? I highly doubt it.

You never know though, after all this is a country where burglars have successfully sued home owners for injuries incurred while robbing their house.


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

*pacerguy*

It is amussing that you can take any sentence and throw your own spin on it, you should be in politics. However I deal in thruths and facts. If you watch the video? you will see artest go into the stands and grab the wrong guy( correct) this is assault. You will also see Jackson come in and hammer some guy behind him while Artest is holding the innocent guy. So your take on Artest being attacked before Jackson attacks is completely false.
You say that Ben got a piece of Artest? When? Artest committed a cheap foul and Ben retaliated, This is when Artest RAN AWAY and Steven Jackson started yapping at anyone that would listen. Ben only wanted Artest, lets face it if you are gonna be a thug? why not stay there and face the music? Hell no, Artest ran as fast as he could, not to avoid punishment from the nba,,,,,but to assure that he continues to breathe for another day.
As far as you claiming Bens brother sucker punching Jones, well by your own account of Oneal standing up to protect artest, Bens brother was protecting the fans. As well, the players that entered the stands deserved to be beaten as much as the fans that got onto the court.
You are a strange breed if you think Oneals punch was sweet? A defenseless individual half his size? and he sneak attacks from behind as the guy tries to get up and flee? that image was disgraceful. Nothing short of a hooligan and I can only hope that someday it is returned to him tenfold.
I will try to enlighten you to the point you either refuse to see, or refuse to admit.
Ben kept everything on ther court........................player to player. cheap fouls and fights happen in the nba from time to time. Either the players sort it out? or the league takes care of it. BUT YOU NEVER GO INTO THE STANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How can Ben be held accountable for some idiot fan and The moron Artest????? Ben got 6 games which is pretty typical of his reaction if you go back to recent fights in the nba.
Artest being sent packing and the other suspensions levied have absolutely nothing to do with Ben.
And Oneal bringing this crap up only furthers to show he is too dumb to put the blame where it belongs. On his idiot thugs for teammates.
Respond if you want to, I am tired of saying the same things over and over. I guess we will agree to disagree....and Ill still be right....


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: pacerguy*



> Originally posted by <b>Copper</b>!
> Ben got 6 games which is pretty typical of his reaction if you go back to recent fights in the nba.


It really wasn't that typical. The NBA struck down on Ben Wallace pretty hard, for the extent of his actions.


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

The simple fact that PacerguyUSA says that he is bored and decides to break down every sentence further illustrates him being OWNED!!!!!

When is this guy going to realize that no one here likes him?


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## thrillhouse (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah at a WDFN show when they had Killer Kowalski and Roy Williams on the air...after the show Roy Williams said he was done signing autographs and this one guy wouldnt leave him alone....finally Roy went up and started to push him until Killer broke them up.....nothing was really said in the news because no punches were thrown or anything but the guy is suing Roy Williams.....Stoney and Wojo pretty much had an entire show on it back in December....
> ...


i listened to this show and i remember killer vehemently denying that williams had any phsical contact with him. He said the guy was harrasing williams for the whole show and followed him out to the car and was still shouting obcenities. then williams got of of his car and walked over to the guy, but killer steped in just in case anything was gonna go down.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

*Re: pacerguy*



> Originally posted by <b>Copper</b>!
> If you watch the video? you will see artest go into the stands and grab the wrong guy( correct) this is assault.


In your first post you said attack, and now you are saying assault. Those are two different terms. You could claim that Artest assaulted the man, although that is still a stretch, seeing as Artest merely grabbed him. Artest definately did not attack the man. A teacher that grabs a student would not be charged with assault.



> You will also see Jackson come in and hammer some guy behind him while Artest is holding the innocent guy. So your take on Artest being attacked before Jackson attacks is completely false.


Jackson only punched a fan _after_ the fan threw beer on Artest.



> You say that Ben got a piece of Artest? When? Artest committed a cheap foul and Ben retaliated,


I wouldn't classify the foul as cheap because Artest did not want Wallace to get an easy two points. Typical mindset of the best defensive player in the game. Then Wallace got a piece of Artest by violently punching/shoving Artest.




> This is when Artest RAN AWAY and Steven Jackson started yapping at anyone that would listen.


This is true, but I would call it more of a shuffle than a run, and the refs were pushing Artest back as well.



> ,but to assure that he continues to breathe for another day.


Sounds like a good plant to me. A person as crazy and charged with rage as Wallace was at the time is going to obliterate someone who was calm at the time, i.e., Artest.




> As far as you claiming Bens brother sucker punching Jones, well by your own account of Oneal standing up to protect artest, Bens brother was protecting the fans.


I like how you left out the fact that Jones was breaking up the fight when Wallace's brother hit him, while O'neal hit a man who had just tackled Artest. And you scorn me for spinning details? :laugh: 



> As well, the players that entered the stands deserved to be beaten as much as the fans that got onto the court.


I'm sure you don't think Rasheed doesn't deserve to be beaten, not your prescious piston forward.  




> You are a strange breed if you think Oneals punch was sweet? A defenseless individual half his size?


Defensless? The man O'neal struck had just attacked Artest. The looked just as about heavy as O'neal, if not a few pounds lighter.



> and he sneak attacks from behind as the guy tries to get up and flee?


Well, now we know that you have not seen the tape. If O'neal snuck up from behind, how did he land a shot at the guys face?



> that image was disgraceful. Nothing short of a hooligan and I can only hope that someday it is returned to him tenfold.


Yeah, hopefully the next time a Piston follows the line of the guy who injured Reggie's eye, Corliss Williamson, and Ben Wallace, I hope that O'neal's teamate protects him ten fold. 




> Ben kept everything on ther court........................player to player.


Why did he have to start anything at all? Wallace started something outside the realm of basketball.

[QUOTE}cheap fouls and fights happen in the nba from time to time. Either the players sort it out? or the league takes care of it. BUT YOU NEVER GO INTO THE STANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

Okay, but fans don't attack players all that often, so you can't use the excuse "cheap fouls and fights happen in the nba from time to time." It wasn't a normal situation.




> How can Ben be held accountable for some idiot fan and The moron Artest?????


1. As Jermaine O'neal said, nobody was throwing anything until Wallace threw something. Wallace incited the fans. Drunk people tend to conform to mob mentality, i.e., following what other people are doing. John Greene was a copy cat of Ben Wallace. How can he be accountable for Artest? Let's see, HE PROVOKED HIM BY HITTING HIM IN THE THROAT AND FACE. You're saying I can go to a person on the street, kick him, and not be accountable for his reaction? 



> I guess we will agree to disagree....and Ill still be right....


It's cool, debating Pistons people is the best thing about this board. They provide just enough to be challenging, but not enough to lose to.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

I think Pacersguy likes to talk about this so much because not much else is going on in Indiana. While we chase another championship, the Pacers are currently on the outside looking in and have nothing else to talk about.

I hope they make it though, but if not, there's always next year.


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

*insane...*

In rebuttle to your ridiculous slant.....
I am not going to copy and paste everything so you will have to read your post to keep up...
You claim Artest assaulting the " wrong guy" was a strech??? By grabbing him, he took away that mans freedom..That is assault on many levels. Look into it..
Jackson did hit the guy while Artest was holding the innocent guy, and why was Jackson in the stands? No one threw anything at him....He was looking for trouble/fight since the Artest foul on Ben...He was runnin around callin everyone from ben to Sheed out and as soon as Sheed went at him he ran...
As for the cheap foul? what the hell do you classify as a cheap foul? in a blow out with less than a minute and he clearly fouls with intent( not going for the ball)....If you are a basketball fan??which I am seriously beginning to doubt...that is the eppitome of a cheap foul. And best defender???? best politicing by a coach....lmao!!!
What tape did you watch that has the fat guy tackling Artest????Im sure the police and prosecutors would love to get their hands on it...
Sheed went into the stands to get your idiots out of the stands Jackson went into the stands to fight not separate Artest from the melee, Jones may have been tryin to get Artest out and should thank Artest for getting him beat by Wallaces brother. If Sheed were hit in the melee? I would say he shouldnt have been there but on his home court that wouldnt happen. I mean, what kinda idiot charges the oppositions stands???oh thats right the laid back calm and collected Artest...
Again if you watch the "real" tape you will see Oneals punch land from the left making contact at @ the ear and sliding toward the chin...which for the physics major you appear to be would mean.....thats right the punch was thrown fromthe victims 9 oclock while the victim was bent forward.
It was a normal situation until Artest decided to do a reclining interview on the table and one idiot tossed his beverage. At this point Artest could have pointed the individual out to security and had said moron removed and beaten...but oh no, mr calm and cool decides to reenact the alamo at the palace.
As for your attempt at legal jargon and hitting someone on the street??It has long been the laws belief that during a sporting event the players and officials police themselves as it should be with contact sports and competition, could you imagine the assault charges laid on lb and de by the qbs???? Although in a rare few instances the law has entered the realm of sport to provide a stronger penalty. The only reason the law is involved in this case is because of the idiots going into the stands...and the idiots going onto the court. The fact that you believe Ben is to blame cause he wanted Artest????utter rediculous...So in your frame of mind...All players will follow Artests lead and charge the stands?????? Sometimes idiots like the moron that throws the beer just use poor judgement and react at an opportunity, there have been countless incidents where a player is fouled hard/ cheap and the players fight and the idiots in the stands dont throw anything,,,,,what are you saying? Ben is the pied friggin piper?


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

Oh boy, if Pacerguyusa continues his pursuit in showing us that he has utterly no life to speak of, then he is going to break your post down for three days and write 14 pages.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> Oh boy, if Pacerguyusa continues his pursuit in showing us that he has utterly no life to speak of, then he is going to break your post down for three days and write 14 pages.


Has he gotten that shine box yet?


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

*nmuman*

Sorry for the long winded shpeel...I just had to say something. I am interested to see this tape he watched...
 
Am I wrong in my recollection? anyone beside Pacerguy?????lol


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

Copper-

You're right, all of us know that you're right, don't even waste your time with that red headed stepchild. 

I'll send him over to your house with his shine box because Daddy just got some new shoes!


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> Cooper-
> 
> You're right, all of us know that you're right, don't even waste your time with that red headed stepchild.
> ...


 Lmao!!! are them gatorskin wing tips???? Shine em up....


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

*Re: insane...*



> Originally posted by <b>Copper</b>!
> 
> What tape did you watch that has the fat guy tackling Artest????Im sure the police and prosecutors would love to get their hands on it...


I don't have the time to rebute your whole post, at least for now, however, I would like to addresss this point with two screen shots:

http://img105.exs.cx/img105/6376/one4gk.th.jpg

http://img105.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img105&image=two8uc.jpg

There's the fat man tackling Artest.

If you want to see a better version, it's at 1:00 minute into the 17.3 MB version of the Sports Center clip.


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

*pacerguy*

Those pictures show 2 things #1 Artest has a guy in a head lock and #2 The guys friend trying to remove his friend from the headlock... I see no one tackling Artest.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

*Re: pacerguy*



> Originally posted by <b>Copper</b>!
> Those pictures show 2 things #1 Artest has a guy in a head lock and #2 The guys friend trying to remove his friend from the headlock... I see no one tackling Artest.


Headlock? Artest's arms are up in the air.....

Notice The man is grabbing Artest, or taking away his freedom, as you put it.


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

*pacerguy*

Unless Artests arms are invisible???? they are not in the air. and if you will notice the white arm around Artests waist( obviously not his) that belongs to the gentleman in the headlock.

So please, please, put down the crack pipe and step away from your keyboard.........Take another look at the picture YOU provided...


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

If you're going to argue with blatant visual evidence that disproves your statement, then I'm done. I'm sure we'll both be happy about that.


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> If you're going to argue with blatant visual evidence that disproves your statement, then I'm done. I'm sure we'll both be happy about that.


Are you as blind as you are rampantly slow?

PM me for Cooper's address, he mentioned to me yesterday that he needs a good shine. After the one I got from you last week I'd have to say that you do a fine job and I think you've found your calling and a decent career that suits you.


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## Lope31 (Jun 11, 2002)

...and the saga continues.


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

I dont know what to say.....I get a better response talkin to the wall. I guess the old addage " you can llead a horse to water but cant make em drink" would apply here. I have shown you the water....now drink up..:angel:


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