# What needs to be done to fix this?



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm fed up with this organization. We almost got taken to OT by one of the worst teams in NBA history. I know it's just one game but wow it shouldn't happen especially at the Palace. I'm thankful AI hit that shot at the end. 

Anyways on to the real issue how do we treat the rest of the season? Remain complacent with our roster, coach, and organization or start to make some changes? What say you?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

You should send Fabio back to Charlotte for Mohammed.That was the key mistake that led to the collapse of this once proud franchise.Once Nazr is back in Motown everything is going to be perfectly fine.


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

wait till we can let Sheed and Iverson go, get a strong wing player and a decent tall and long Post player, hopefully not amare nor boozer, not worth the money imo, i'm not a fan of bosh either


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

If your not a fan of Boozer, Amare, or Bosh then who do you suggest we go after? Oden? Howard? Neither is leaving their respective teams. I'm not a huge fan of Boozer as a franchise type big, and i'm not convinced you can build around Bosh to contend for a title. Amare is the better out of those 3 and pair him with a couple of guys who can score on the wing and a good point you could have a really good team. Amare, and Stuckey would be a good foundation to build with as far as players go. We are going to have to make a coaching change sometime in the near future as well. I don't mean to jump on Curry early but no way we should be struggling this bad. Unless our play drastically changes I think we should search for a replacement after this year.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

I hate to say this, because I like Mike, but these long lull periods are a product of really bad coaching. They don't do anything consistently, and it leaves the players confused. They started going to AI at the beginning of the fourth and built up a 14 point lead, and then they just stopped and watched when the Thunder came back. 

Hamilton and Brown or Johnson for Kaman. Get it done, Joe.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

I actually like that idea for a trade. Get Kaman here to at least give us a solid center with some height and not trade any of our expirings. Never really thought of that. Thats a damn good idea Slic.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Not only that, but it will end this small-ball stuff. Don't get me wrong, I get it. But you can't go into the playoffs with Prince as your PF and be successful. He's a great SF rebounder, but he's not strong enough and he doesn't box out well enough at the PF position. 

It will never happen.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

:yes: Curry just seems like one of those guys who tries too hard sometimes to outscheme the other coach. To be fair he really doesn't have another choice at this point. The only thing I could see would be shifting Rip to the bench moving Prince to the 3 and bringing Maxiell into the starting lineup.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Sliccat said:


> I hate to say this, because I like Mike, but these long lull periods are a product of really bad coaching. They don't do anything consistently, and it leaves the players confused. They started going to AI at the beginning of the fourth and built up a 14 point lead, and then they just stopped and watched when the Thunder came back.
> 
> Hamilton and Brown or Johnson for Kaman. Get it done, Joe.


Wow, I just realized how easy it is for you. Just follow one player, and you get to root for this year all the time.

For the AI fans: Trade assets, load the team up with veterans that know how to win, and give him a shot at the finals!

For the Pistons fans: Stay the course, let Curry learn on the fly during the throw-away year, and position ourselves for a nice free agent signing in the off-season with the cap space (I like Boozer, he's a good physical presence to put alongside Amir, who has all the physicality of a twig that can jump).


side note: Last night did show something I do like a lot about Iverson. No matter what the situation is, he has the same self-confidence. He isn't going to wilt under pressure, although some people may argue he has choked in the past I argue that he simply missed. To choke is to imply that you lost confidence and missed because of it. He's always a killer.

-Chris.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

bball2223 said:


> :yes: Curry just seems like one of those guys who tries too hard sometimes to outscheme the other coach. To be fair he really doesn't have another choice at this point. The only thing I could see would be shifting Rip to the bench moving Prince to the 3 and bringing Maxiell into the starting lineup.


Well, the smart thing to do would be to bring AI off the bench. He'd shore up the second unit, back up Hamilton and Stuckey, and be able to be himself without worrying about submitting to four other scorers. I doubt it will happen though.


> Wow, I just realized how easy it is for you. Just follow one player, and you get to root for this year all the time.
> 
> For the AI fans: Trade assets, load the team up with veterans that know how to win, and give him a shot at the finals!


First of all, if you think trading Rip for Kaman is to trade an asset for a veteran who knows how to win, you're an idiot. The simple fact is that the pistons are too small, a poor rebounding team, and have too many good backcourt players and mediocre and undersized frontcourt players. Kaman makes their rotation younger (26), bigger, and he puts everybody else in their natural positions. Nevermind that he actually has a shorter contract than Hamilton

As for Johnson, he can't get on the court half the time (though he's starting tonight), he's got no chance with Kaman. Johnson is very overrated by the pistons staff and fans. He's an undersized energy player with no offense and little man or rotation defense. Maxiel is the far superior player (bigger and smarter), and I'd never suggest to include him in the trade. 

Second, if you think it's easy rooting for Allen Iverson, you have no concept of the man's career. 

Third, Boozer is a horrendous fit. The Pistons are too short as it is. Boozer's an overrated player who lacks great height. He and Johnson would board well and get slaughtered by anybody above 6'11. Kaman is actually a good man defender and a shot blocker, plus he wouldn't impact the cap any, so you could still sign boozer and have him actually fit with the roster. Get a guy like Raymond Felton for cheap, and you'd be good to go. Nevermind that you'd still have bird rights to Iverson and Wallace after that.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

I was speaking on generalities, that was my bad not stating that in the first. I wasn't specifically referencing that one trade idea that you had, more the general premise behind rooting for one player. I still don't -and never will- understand it, and will always believe it is strange.

Concerning Boozer/Amir... The fact is that Amir is being called 6'11 is incorrect. He is listed at 6'9, was being called 6'11 in late 2006, and is likely at 7' right now. It might be a generous listing, maybe he's 6'11.75 or some measure of bull**** like that, but the fact is that an inch isn't going to make a difference. Especially when you have length which Amir does, I know that his wingspan is well above average. His problem does not have to do with being too short, and when you look at his shoulders you can tell that its only going to be a matter of a year or so before his body fills out. He doesn't turn 22 until May.

Here are the facts about Amir Johnson v. Jason Maxiell: He is a better rebounder, a better shot blocker, and a more efficient scorer.

Tonight showed why he should be played. The fact is that we need to keep him on the floor and ignore his foul issues. If Michael Curry would keep Amir Johnson on the floor, regardless of his foul situation, and give him as many minutes as he could we would win more games. That much is a fact. He is incredibly efficient and productive, and when he is aggressive he effects games defensively. Putting a long and tall player that is incredibly efficient and can effect any shot that comes anywhere next to the paint alongside a shorter but far stronger player in Boozer would work well as a complement.

Although I can understand where you'd look at Maxiell as a better player: he is a known quantity. You know what you will get from him every night. When you want to win now, you get scared of the kid that can combust at any moment and have a real stinker of a game as a result of his growing pains. Maxiell never plays beyond what he thinks he can do, and as a result doesn't have spectacular games but also doesn't have horrible ones. Amir is going to have a few horrible games as he learns what he is capable of in extended minutes, but he needs to have those horrible games.

Amir Johnson over Maxiell, any day of the week. And although it might be close right now, if Amir received the minutes he needs it wouldn't be for too long.


-Chris.


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

if we get a good post player, i hope we can still keep Sheed for cheaper, hes a great defensive presence


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

ChrisWoj said:


> I was speaking on generalities, that was my bad not stating that in the first. I wasn't specifically referencing that one trade idea that you had, more the general premise behind rooting for one player. I still don't -and never will- understand it, and will always believe it is strange.
> 
> Concerning Boozer/Amir... The fact is that Amir is being called 6'11 is incorrect. He is listed at 6'9, was being called 6'11 in late 2006, and is likely at 7' right now. It might be a generous listing, maybe he's 6'11.75 or some measure of bull**** like that, but the fact is that an inch isn't going to make a difference. Especially when you have length which Amir does, I know that his wingspan is well above average. His problem does not have to do with being too short, and when you look at his shoulders you can tell that its only going to be a matter of a year or so before his body fills out. He doesn't turn 22 until May.
> 
> ...


I lost my post cause the power went out. Suffice to say, you're wrong about everything.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

How many things I say do we have to see come to fruition before you acknowledge I know what I'm talking about?


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

ChrisWoj said:


> How many things I say do we have to see come to fruition before you acknowledge I know what I'm talking about?


A guy gets one thing right and thinks he's a genius. Of course, you probably thought you were a genius before you got anything right.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Sliccat said:


> I lost my post cause the power went out. Suffice to say, you're wrong about everything.


I don't think he is.

Maxiell can do a lot of things, but he won't ever be a starter on a good team. No matter how hard he works or how hard he plays, he's never going to be Charles Barkley and he's always going to be limited by being 6'5".

Amir has been one of their most effective players all season. Every time he's on the floor good things happen. He's got foul issues, but he can work through them, and once he does he'll be fantastic.

And I think trading Rip and any of the big guys for Kaman is a terrible idea.

To "fix" this team, Michael Curry has to fix the defense - which means Tayshaun has to play the 3, Amir and Rasheed need to start upfront, and Stuckey needs to be in the backcourt. That leaves Rip or Iverson coming off the bench, and I think AI is much better suited for that role.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

MLKG said:


> I don't think he is.
> 
> Maxiell can do a lot of things, but he won't ever be a starter on a good team. No matter how hard he works or how hard he plays, he's never going to be Charles Barkley and he's always going to be limited by being 6'5".
> 
> ...


Maxiel is a much better man and team defender and he actually boxes out, nevermind his deceptive lenght, speed and vertical. He'll fall off dramatically around 30, but he's a very good role player.

The whole "he can't start on a good team" argument is one of the dumbest in basketball. All you have to do is look at bit players like Luc Longley, Ron Harper/AC Green(Lakers), Andreson Varejao, etc to prove it false. Limited players start all the time, it's always the finishing line-ups that count more anyways. Even ignoring that, this team would be better off starting him.

As for Amir, his man defense hovers around average and his team rotation defense is pretty bad, which is why Curry had benched him. Now, he's an excellent shot blocker, an adequate shooter, and an energetic rebounder who boxes out terribly. 

I'll watch him closer in the next few games, but I've seen little to indicate that he'll ever amount to much.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Sliccat said:


> A guy gets one thing right and thinks he's a genius. Of course, you probably thought you were a genius before you got anything right.


Virtually everything I've said about Iverson has been correct, along with numerous views about the NBA over the past three years I've been on these forums. I know what I'm talking about. It is a fact, proven time after time.


-Chris.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Sliccat said:


> Maxiel is a much better man and team defender and he actually boxes out, nevermind his deceptive lenght, speed and vertical. He'll fall off dramatically around 30, but he's a very good role player.


The ability to rotate correctly is falsely thought of as an independent talent or skill. The reality is that rotating properly within a defense comes with regular playing time with a particular unit as team defensive strategies vary from team to team and unit to unit. Until Amir Johnson gets regular time with the starting group of players, he isn't going to properly understand the tendencies of his teammates. The fact that he works hard on defense and doesn't make a lot of hideously stupid plays is enough to prove to me that with regular time as a starter he can operate just fine within the team defense. It takes reps.


> The whole "he can't start on a good team" argument is one of the dumbest in basketball. All you have to do is look at bit players like Luc Longley, Ron Harper/AC Green(Lakers), Andreson Varejao, etc to prove it false. Limited players start all the time, it's always the finishing line-ups that count more anyways. Even ignoring that, this team would be better off starting him.


This is one of the points I agree with. Although with Jason Maxiell I won't say he can't start on a good team, but I will say that he can only start against certain opposition or with certain teammates. He's a specialist, in his own way, as an undersized hustle big. As such he can't start against teams with any significant size, or against teams where he'd be stuck defending a big that plays on the perimeter. Although you said Maxiell has "deceptive" length, length is becoming a valued commodity. More and more taller bigs have "deceptive" length of their own, negating this advantage for the undersized big. It used to be a huge thing when length wasn't valued as much, but not so much anymore.


> As for Amir, his man defense hovers around average and his team rotation defense is pretty bad, which is why Curry had benched him. Now, he's an excellent shot blocker, an adequate shooter, and an energetic rebounder who boxes out terribly.
> 
> I'll watch him closer in the next few games, but I've seen little to indicate that he'll ever amount to much.


I agree with one point, he does need to learn to box out better. I already addressed his team defense issues. But the fact that he is a hard worker, and has operated at full speed for this team both in practice and in games for a few years now with minimal playing time shows me that he's the sort of guy that will continue to work on these things, and develop them to the point that they are no longer weaknesses. Now if you could say that "intelligence" or something of the sort was one of his weaknesses, then I'd agree with you that he can't fix these things, a lot of talented players don't have the smarts to really pick up on basic skills that you need to develop to succeed in the NBA. This isn't an issue with Amir.


... but what do I know, I'm wrong. About everything.


-Chris.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

I will however admit that foul trouble is very much an issue. Ugh.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

ChrisWoj said:


> Virtually everything I've said about Iverson has been correct, along with numerous views about the NBA over the past three years I've been on these forums. I know what I'm talking about. It is a fact, proven time after time.
> 
> 
> -Chris.


I could give two ****s about your posting history, but you're obviously not going to be wrong about something if you're agreeing with me. The "everything" referred to that post, seeing as how I was responding to it.



> The ability to rotate correctly is falsely thought of as an independent talent or skill. The reality is that rotating properly within a defense comes with regular playing time with a particular unit as team defensive strategies vary from team to team and unit to unit. Until Amir Johnson gets regular time with the starting group of players, he isn't going to properly understand the tendencies of his teammates. The fact that he works hard on defense and doesn't make a lot of hideously stupid plays is enough to prove to me that with regular time as a starter he can operate just fine within the team defense. It takes reps.


You don't give a person major playing time on a playoff team to learn things. You earn playing time by picking up on things like rotations in practice and in the limited minutes. You're reaffirming what I said: Johnson, at this point at least, is a 20mpg bench player at most. he's to flawed to be anything else. To try to play him any more than that is just trying to lose. If that's your purpose, then fine, we can't agree there.

To be fair, I should note that Amir's perimeter rotations have been much better than those of McDyess.

Now as for Maxiel, I neglected to also mention that he has the ability to be an amazing pick and roll player if his point guards were less concerned about slashing themselves. He sets excellent screens, cuts quickly and finds the open spot. Stuckey and Iverson miss him about three times a game a piece. This is what makes the pick and fade abilities of Sheed and Dyess so valuable, although they both need better timing with that too.



> ... but what do I know, I'm wrong. About everything.


Precisely why you need to agree with me more often.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

As I'm saying this, Maxiel makes one of the most amazing defensive plays I've ever seen.

And I should say that if Amir actually is 6'11, that has to change my perception of him some. He's listed at 6'9 everywhere I've seen.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

I think Hamilton's injury has (or should have) forced Curry into the answer to the thread question.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Amir is definitely 6'11, at minimum. I honestly have no idea why none of the official listings have changed since he was drafted. During the preseason his rookie year there were already websites reporting that he'd arrived at camp and measured at 6'10 for the team. This was two months out of high school, before the 05/06 season.

I will agree with you on one thing... he isn't going to get more than 20 minutes a night. 

Because he can't keep himself on the floor longer, apparently. Blah. I love his aggression, but against stronger bigs like Dwight Howard he is going to find himself in foul trouble until he puts on the mass to be physical without looking like he's hanging on them.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

It's over for Detroit. They aren't climbing back over Boston or Cleveland with this roster. 

1. Trade all the vets. 
1a. Keep Stuckey and Rip. 
2. Find one player to build around (that can coexist with Rip and Stuckey). 
3. Hope Dumars can get you back in serious contention by 2011.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Prince is an incredible value, and the other vets are expiring contracts anyways.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

I think Amir is better suited to coming off the bench than starting at this point. He brings serious energy, but he's such an incomplete player that his presence in the starting line-up can lead to slow starts. The problem is that he and Maxiel both fill that same role, and they're so bad on offense that they always need to be paired with Sheed or Dyess.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I forgot about Prince. They can keep him too.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> I forgot about Prince. They can keep him too.


So which vets do they trade?


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Dre™;5805107 said:


> I forgot about Prince. They can keep him too.


So keep...

Prince/Hamilton/Stuckey

The following are expirings:
Iverson/Wallace/Herrmann/McDyess/other random bench bits

Which means you want us to trade the following veterans that are going to be weighing us down in the years to come...
Umm... uh... uh... um... Kwame Brown?


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Sliccat said:


> As I'm saying this, Maxiel makes one of the most amazing defensive plays I've ever seen.


His knack for the spectacular is precicely what makes some people overrate him.

I think he's a fantastic player to have coming off the bench, but he's not a big minutes player.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/jobtraining_070108.html
He's 6foot11, significantly taller than Jason. Slic made some nice points but I think Amir is better asset than Jason. Apart from better picks (which should be irrelevant) and better boxing out, Amir is better in other categories. The most important in my opinion is his height advantage and his leaping ability which makes him a good force on the defensive end and that is exactly what Detroit needs. Foul troubles indicates(well yes also that he's inexperienced)his immense willingness to play defense and also to grab rebounds on the offensive end.He's stamina is better too,he's constantly roaming around the floor tiring the player he's guarded by and is part of every counter-attack made by Pistons. (as is Jason in most cases but still)...


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

kirov said:


> http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/jobtraining_070108.html
> He's 6foot11, significantly taller than Jason. Slic made some nice points but I think Amir is better asset than Jason. Apart from better picks (which should be irrelevant) and better boxing out, Amir is better in other categories. The most important in my opinion is his height advantage and his leaping ability which makes him a good force on the defensive end and that is exactly what Detroit needs. Foul troubles indicates(well yes also that he's inexperienced)his immense willingness to play defense and also to grab rebounds on the offensive end.He's stamina is better too,he's constantly roaming around the floor tiring the player he's guarded by and is part of every counter-attack made by Pistons. (as is Jason in most cases but still)...


Maxiel is also the better finisher, set shooter and defender. Shot blocking, much like steals is creates a mirage of a good defender, but whether it actually improves the defense depends on the player. Amir reminds me of Sam Dalembert, a good shot blocker who's a complete airhead otherwise. Amir's ceiling may well be higher, but Maxiel is a better, more polished player.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

MLKG said:


> His knack for the spectacular is precicely what makes some people overrate him.
> 
> I think he's a fantastic player to have coming off the bench, but he's not a big minutes player.


I could say much the same for Amir.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

> When Richard Hamilton returns from his groin injury, Pistons' coach Michael Curry could opt to bring either Hamilton or Allen Iverson off the bench.
> 
> Detroit has enjoyed two straight stellar defensive efforts with a bigger lineup.
> 
> "We looked at our lineup at different times, and we thought about different possible guys coming off the bench, but we hadn't made a decision on that," Curry said Monday night after the team's fourth straight victory. "That's kind of a tough decision."


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

Sliccat said:


> Maxiel is also the better finisher, set shooter and defender. Shot blocking, much like steals is creates a mirage of a good defender, but whether it actually improves the defense depends on the player. Amir reminds me of Sam Dalembert, a good shot blocker who's a complete airhead otherwise. Amir's ceiling may well be higher, but Maxiel is a better, more polished player.


Poor comparison, except for the part you mentioned,shot blocking,they're nothing alike...the other point is that Maxiell is not so much more polished that his height should be neglected.he's strong,he's athletic but still too short! and I don't know where you get that Maxiell is smarter player.He looks like complete knucklehead on occasions out there...
and for the ''one of the best defensive plays i've seen''-->that' wasn't so special,you're hyping that dude way too much.
just my opinion,we should discuss it in a civilized manner...


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

poll results sure look interesting.lol


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Sliccat said:


> Maxiel is also the better finisher, set shooter and defender. Shot blocking, much like steals is creates a mirage of a good defender, but whether it actually improves the defense depends on the player. Amir reminds me of Sam Dalembert, a good shot blocker who's a complete airhead otherwise. Amir's ceiling may well be higher, but Maxiel is a better, more polished player.


How is Amir an airhead? He plays within himself offensively and doesn't make stupid mistakes. He's nothing like Dalembert in that reguard.

You are stereotyping him because he's primarily an energy/hustler player. If you watch enough of him, you'll see he's actually a talented passer and has good court vision - which is why he fits so well with the first unit offensively. 

Max is a hell of an athlete, but Amir plays higher above the rim and is much faster in changing ends. 

I'm not trying to throw Max under a bus here, but he's a bit of a black hole on offense which makes him an unnatural fit for the starting lineup. He's been effective in the past, but he is not having a good season to this point.

2008-2009 +/-
Amir Johnson +11
Jason Maxiell -12.6

2007-2008 +/-
Amir Johnson +4.8
Jason Maxiell -3.1


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

> he's strong,he's athletic but still too short!


He's an inch shorter than Carlos Boozer and two inches taller than Charles Barkley. He's neither of those players, but the short argument doesn't really work with somebody who plays as big as he does. And Maxiel is a better scorer and off the ball player offensively than Johnson. (Though they're both pretty bad.)

Furthermore, I already admitted that at the beginning of this argument, I was unaware that Johnson's height wasn't as listed - and that it changes the conversation. Reading is FUNdamental, you know.



> Poor comparison, except for the part you mentioned,shot blocking,they're nothing alike





> How is Amir an airhead? He plays within himself offensively and doesn't make stupid mistakes. He's nothing like Dalembert in that reguard.


Sounds to me like some people never watched the 21 year old Sam Dalembert (although Sammy was an even worse jumpshooter). Suffice to say, big contracts change players' self-perception drastically.

And if you want to bring +/- into play, Stuckey/AI/Rip/Prince/Wallace is the pistons' best lineup (+52 w/ 80% win) and you don't like it. Either be consistent or don't bring it up. Now, personally, I think that's a ridiculous way to evaluate players (line-ups time of play dictate it much more than the individual), but if we're going to go there...


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## tr1986 (Nov 6, 2008)

the pistons need new franchise players, guys that can legitimately go toe-to-toe with the biggest scorers in the nba. i don't really understand why a team would give up a star for iverson or sheed. kaman isn't a star. since it seems like a transition year, i would not be surprised if we let their contracts expire and sign free agent big men. maybe dumars can work a trade for a high draft pick.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

Sliccat said:


> He's an inch shorter than Carlos Boozer and two inches taller than Charles Barkley. He's neither of those players, but the short argument doesn't really work with somebody who plays as big as he does. And Maxiel is a better scorer and off the ball player offensively than Johnson. (Though they're both pretty bad.)


I don't know what were you trying to say with your first sentence since Barkley and Boozer were/are playing so many minutes for other reasons than being small and being able to play big.you might as well want to compare him with Rodman, if height and being able to play big is the only factor for comparing. I admit Maxiell is a better scorer but apart from Iverson's game, picks with Rasheed and isolation, Hamilton's screen game, Prince's isolation plays,Sheed's post up plays, Stuckey's drives in the paint they honestly don't need somebody who is SLIGHTLY better scorer than Amir to be in the game just for that reason.
Happy New Year people!


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

> I don't know what were you trying to say with your first sentence since Barkley and Boozer were/are playing so many minutes for other reasons than being small and being able to play big.


That's EXACTLY the point! The height factor is irrelevant on its own, you can't isolate it and claim he's inferior because he's "TOO SHORT." You have to take into account the different skillsets that players have into play. To isolate his height as by itself is moronic, your own argument tries to prove.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

Sliccat said:


> That's EXACTLY the point! The height factor is irrelevant on its own, you can't isolate it and claim he's inferior because he's "TOO SHORT." You have to take into account the different skillsets that players have into play. To isolate his height as by itself is moronic, your own argument tries to prove.


yes of course, but maxiell's skill set is very limited that's why his height IS a factor.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

kirov said:


> yes of course, but maxiell's skill set is very limited that's why his height IS a factor.


one of many, but because of his weight and athleticism, it won't become a problem until he gets to be around 30.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

ChrisWoj said:


> So keep...
> 
> Prince/Hamilton/Stuckey
> 
> ...


Yeah, I didn't realize there were so many expiring deals here. In that case, you keep who I said keep, and you draft/sign a team that can compete around Stuckey and Rip. It really all starts with what kind of big men you have, that's the key to the Pistons' success besides Billups. They've always had a fleet of interior defenders who could protect the rim and guard most any big posting up.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

Look at how well the team looks without Rip. Maybe we really should shop him around?


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Ruff Draft said:


> Look at how well the team looks without Rip. Maybe we really should shop him around?


The reason that they look better is because they have a better rotation when they're playing a more traditional lineup with a true guard-guard-forward-forward-center lineup. Well, even if it is more guard-guard-forward-forward-forward. Its better than three guards and two forwards.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

Ruff Draft said:


> Look at how well the team looks without Rip. Maybe we really should shop him around?


Another good game by Johnson.He should be playing the starting 4 and Stuckey should come off the bench (he's the most realistic choice,even though it would probably be better to bench either AI or Rip)


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

kirov said:


> Another good game by Johnson.He should be playing the starting 4 and Stuckey should come off the bench (he's the most realistic choice,even though it would probably be better to bench either AI or Rip)


Coach has to realize that Rip/ AI are the more realistic choices. Stuckey makes these team go.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Amir is playing very well right now. It shows that his real weakness at the moment is his strength. Once he fills out physically, which is inevitable with shoulders like his, he'll really be able to do what he's doing tonight consistently. Right now he's playing against weaker opposition: Miller, Moore, Thompson... none of them are physical beasts in terms of strength down low. Once Amir compares more physically with other veteran big men in the league he's going to be pretty tough to stop when he wants position both defensively and offensively.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

On another note, is it just me or is Udrih completely helpless guarding Stuckey tonight?


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

C'mon Kings! I bet on you guys to beat the spread!


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

Another great game by Amir. Kid needs to play all game every game until he fouls out.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

Ruff Draft said:


> Coach has to realize that Rip/ AI are the more realistic choices. Stuckey makes these team go.


With AI's 20mil in the contract and Rip's 10mil or something like that and both with veteran status and reputation,that's what makes Stuckey more realistic choice,NBA is still a big business. In technical terms,terms from pure basketball point of view,I agree with you 100%.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

kirov said:


> With AI's 20mil in the contract and Rip's 10mil or something like that and both with veteran status and reputation,that's what makes Stuckey more realistic choice,NBA is still a big business. In technical terms,terms from pure basketball point of view,I agree with you 100%.


Incorrect. In terms of satisfying the players: Rip is a more sensible choice. With more years on his contract before he's a free agent he is the player who, financially, can most afford to come off the bench as a 6th man right now. Allen Iverson would likely balk at it, going into a free agent off season and Stuckey is looking to start playing for that first big contract as soon as possible.


-Chris.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

wau that ''incorrect'' surely is highly confident, of course we're all just sharing opinions whereas you tell us the truth. I guess i was thinking way outside the box,for that i apologize my liege...


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

You stated: "in technical terms." You talked about what would be better from a "big business" standpoint. You turned it into a pure business decision, I answered in terms of a pure business decision, and from this aspect you're looking at simple economical fact.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

simple economical fact? well, I'm glad everything is so black and white to you, I guess we've solved that one.
(damn Slic where are you, I need a normal conversation with someone, no offense Ruff


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

kirov said:


> simple economical fact? well, I'm glad everything is so black and white to you, I guess we've solved that one.
> (damn Slic where are you, I need a normal conversation with someone, no offense Ruff


I'm using your words here. YOU said you were looking at it from a "Big Business" standpoint, in "technical terms." When you're talking about technical terms on something, you're looking for black and white. It is what *you* asked for, and I answered.

From an opinion standpoint: you're fine.

But if you're looking at it economically:
Allen Iverson is looking for the best possible performance with a free agent off-season coming up.
Rodney Stuckey can start negotiating for a new contract after this season (with team holding option for 10/11).
Richard Hamilton just signed a four year extension and will be locked up until he's about 35 years old.

Looking at it from the "Big Business" viewpoint that you asked for, looking for what makes the most sense, technically, if you want to play things the best you're looking at putting Richard Hamilton on the bench because he is the one with the least to lose, economically, by spending half of the 2008/2009 season on the bench. Allen Iverson has a ton to lose: he's about to be a free agent. Rodney Stuckey has a lot to lose: it would look like a step back as he looks to work toward his first big deal. But Richard Hamilton would still have years on this contract to play out before he even has to think about his next contract.

LRN2UZLOGIKkthx.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

Yes,thank you, a student working in a post office is telling me about logic,you really are a piece of work.Ignore list application is probably gonna do wonders for me but first i'll reply.
first of all,when I said ''in technical terms'' I agreed with Ruff's statement(as you can see if you read it correctly)Stuckey should be playing 1 along with AI/Hamilton.Big business point of view was completely another point which can be dissected into smaller categories for conversation and is not simply about ''simple economical fact''. I didn't turned this into a pure business decision since I also mentioned their reputation and veteran status which cannot be ignored, combine that with a rookie coach who was never a good player and has no authority over players whatsoever,at least not over the good ones.From that point of view and also business, Ai was always among top 10 jersey sellers in the world,which he would continue to do as long as he does his magic on the floor which is not gonna happen if he plays off the bench,plays 25minutes a game,doesn't even get in the rhytm,etc...You don't give a guy like AI 20mil and than start him off the bench.That doesn't fall under category business?moreover am I talking about simple economical fact?that is why I said everything is black and white to you.you completely missed the business point. you just read the lines,probably not thinking it through...I was never talking about THEIR business point of view,what in the world are you talking about? and your logic against me for the business point of view was that hey Ai and Stuckey both need new contracts,Rip is fine for some time,let's toss those two in,Rip is cool,he doesn't care.That's your argument against mine,which had nothing remotely to do with this??
AI is not looking for the best possible performance,that's completely off,he wants to do good this year,fit in with this team,maybe hope for an extension,get deep in the playoffs,that's it. he doesn't need to perform ''best'',every management in the league knows him and what he's capable of.
I have to write this one down too,since I'm not gonna be hearing from you any time soon.it's been on my mind for some time now.Our last quarrel was when I quoted your post and said that you repeat yourself and you answered that I quoted something you've never mentioned before. since that was my first post in that thread at that particular time I just wanted to post out who was the POSTER and not so much what was the post about.and you jumped immediately saying 'I've never posted anything like that''.that's your problem,you see every post superficial,attacking every sentence not seeing the big picture.
Write your goddamn Sci-Fi or whatever the **** you're trying to write at home,you clearly live in your own world,responding to every post with high confidence. 
But than again:


ChrisWoj said:


> Virtually everything I've said about Iverson has been correct, along with numerous views about the NBA over the past three years I've been on these forums. I know what I'm talking about. It is a fact, proven time after time.
> 
> 
> -Chris.





ChrisWoj said:


> How many things I say do we have to see come to fruition before you acknowledge I know what I'm talking about?


you're sad.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

kirov said:


> Yes,thank you, a student working in a post office is telling me about logic,you really are a piece of work.Ignore list application is probably gonna do wonders for me but first i'll reply.


You are completely pathetic. Congratulations, you can read from an out-of-date profile I wrote over three and a half years ago.


> first of all,when I said ''in technical terms'' I agreed with Ruff's statement(as you can see if you read it correctly)Stuckey should be playing 1 along with AI/Hamilton.Big business point of view was completely another point which can be dissected into smaller categories for conversation and is not simply about ''simple economical fact''. I didn't turned this into a pure business decision since I also mentioned their reputation and veteran status which cannot be ignored, combine that with a rookie coach who was never a good player and has no authority over players whatsoever,at least not over the good ones.


I'm going to try to break your poorly written big block of text (hey, you wanted to get personal) up since you don't understand how to do so. To argue your first point: You have to use a business viewpoint when looking into reputations and status as a player. For most players status translates to economics. We're talking about players that are going into a contract renewal situation, status and reputation play a huge factor in those things. Not sure where Curry matters here.



> From that point of view and also business, Ai was always among top 10 jersey sellers in the world,which he would continue to do as long as he does his magic on the floor which is not gonna happen if he plays off the bench,plays 25minutes a game,doesn't even get in the rhytm,etc...You don't give a guy like AI 20mil and than start him off the bench.That doesn't fall under category business?moreover am I talking about simple economical fact?that is why I said everything is black and white to you.you completely missed the business point. you just read the lines,probably not thinking it through...I was never talking about THEIR business point of view,what in the world are you talking about?


Clearly you don't understand how to read because you just backed up everything that I wrote. I stated, repeatedly, that AI can not be placed on the bench because he can't work his game, get his money, sell his jerseys, etc. from the bench. That isn't his game. And I stated repeatedly that putting him on the bench wouldn't work. Thank you for conceding my point on this portion of the argument. I appreciate your understanding that I know what I'm talking about.



> and your logic against me for the business point of view was that hey Ai and Stuckey both need new contracts,Rip is fine for some time,let's toss those two in,Rip is cool,he doesn't care.That's your argument against mine,which had nothing remotely to do with this??


"Rip's 10mil or something like that and both with veteran status and reputation" - This is your statement. You brought Rip into the debate. Therefore: my arguing the point as to why Rip could afford to go to the bench has everything to do with this.


> AI is not looking for the best possible performance,that's completely off,he wants to do good this year,fit in with this team,maybe hope for an extension,get deep in the playoffs,that's it. he doesn't need to perform ''best'',every management in the league knows him and what he's capable of.


And yet, the instant that things weren't going in his favor personally... he missed practice and threw a hissy fit. He had a stretch of 5 games, 4 of which he played poorly in, where he felt Curry wasn't utilizing him where he should be utilized (paraphrasing, of course, look up the quotes from the time)... so he says screw the team. Misses practice on Thanksgiving day, a mandatory practice. Yeah, he'll do EVERYTHING for the team to fit in this year. Great player, great hustle, I love his confidence... but he looks out for number one.


> I have to write this one down too,since I'm not gonna be hearing from you any time soon.it's been on my mind for some time now.Our last quarrel was when I quoted your post and said that you repeat yourself and you answered that I quoted something you've never mentioned before. since that was my first post in that thread at that particular time I just wanted to post out who was the POSTER and not so much what was the post about.and you jumped immediately saying 'I've never posted anything like that''.that's your problem,you see every post superficial,attacking every sentence not seeing the big picture.
> Write your goddamn Sci-Fi or whatever the **** you're trying to write at home,you clearly live in your own world,responding to every post with high confidence.
> But than again: you're sad.


¿En inglés, por favor?

But seriously, your personal attacks are HILARIOUS. I love how you try to use information from over three years ago, most of which has no bearing on my current personal life, to make fun of me. You're such a silly fool. I don't live in a world of my own, I live in a world of logic. Everything in this world is logical if you follow through lines of reasoning. Frankly, you haven't much of an argument with me here. Your opinion is Stuckey should come off of the bench, good for you. You stated that in technical terms both AI/Rip are better choices, I stated that only Rip was a good choice by matter of fact, especially applying the big business concept.

Really you only wanted to use this thread to start an argument with me because you take things said on an internet basketball forum way too personally. Grow some thicker skin and read up on how things like "logic" work in the real world, then come back and debate me.


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