# Tim Duncan - the greatest PF of all time?



## crackman

Well is he, i am starting to question it, how good is this gut, he has achieved so much already in his relatively hsort career, two MVP's, two rings, 2 finals mvp's, 10000+points, 5,000+ boards, sure guys like karl malone come to mind, but TD will one day achieve everything that malone has, except maybe that 32,000 point mark.

what do you guys think, who else is out there now or ever that ven compares to TD


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## NYCbballFan

I'm not much of a NBA historian, but I have to believe that Duncan is making a really good run for best PF of all-time.


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## Truth34

*Answer to your question*

Yes, he already is. Don't think Malone affected the game defensively like TD. Neither did Barkley. McHale could score and defend, but wasn't close to the rebounder.

Tim Duncan is the best PF I have ever seen.


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## Match_Germany

Hey. 
And Malone still has no rings!!:headbang:


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## ltrain99

Well greatest true pf probably, but ud never put him on the starting 5 all time, u wanna get wilt russell and kareem all 2 start, and u cnat take 2 starting jobs away from them, probably kareem at the 4.


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## bigbabyjesus

Duncan will definetly be the greatest PF of all time, hes chasing that title right now, and he already has two rings and two mvps and hes what, 27..amazing..


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## Bulls Are The Future

How old is he. Bcuz dependng on how old he is I think he has a shot at being the Alltime Point, Rebound, and Block Leader. He already is the best.


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## Nikos

Well I would probably already say he is one of the top 5 PF's of all time already. 

His main competetion when his career is over should be Charles Barkley and Karl Malone who are pretty much the two best PF's of all time. It could be argued that hes better than both of those guys -- but I have to give him a little more time before I deem him as being CLEARLY better than these guys -- although he is on track to eclipse both of thse guys in two or three years.


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## texan

tim duncan is 28 yrs old. imo he is arguably the best pf ever and i think by the end of his career in 8 or 10 more years he could be considered the best or 2nd best pf/c of all time. think about it the list right now of best pf/c is

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. kareem
3. russell 
4. mchale/barkley/malone

duncan is prolly a top 5 or 10 pf/c of all time already and by the end of his career could surpass wilt and kareem as being the best ever. i think he will be a top 5 all time player when he retires

1. MJ
2. Duncan
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Bird

shaq dont come close


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## Juan

Duncan could end up being the greatest PF, but not C. Duncan hardly ever plays center, and he does not want to. I think rating Ducan a better C than Shaq is quite premature.


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## venturalakersfan

Duncan is probably the best center playing power forward.


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## ltrain99

> Originally posted by <b>venturalakersfan</b>!
> Duncan is probably the best center playing power forward.


Just becuase hes a true 7footer doesnt mean hes a center. Being a center would be a waste of his passing, shooting and handle. Some1 with that kind of skill cnat be restricted by a certain postiton, just becuase of size. It works for small guys also, like Ai being a 2. He is just more effective at the 4 rather than the 5.


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## digital jello

> Originally posted by <b>ltrain99</b>!
> Just becuase hes a true 7footer doesnt mean hes a center. Being a center would be a waste of his passing, shooting and handle. Some1 with that kind of skill cnat be restricted by a certain postiton, just becuase of size. It works for small guys also, like Ai being a 2. He is just more effective at the 4 rather than the 5.


Excellent post, it's like saying Dirk is a center because he is 7 feet tall.


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## jokeaward

Duncan could be a C. You never know, but he'd probably lose some assist average but get more blocks and take more hook shots. Whoopee.

Easy on the #2 ever. It ain't gonna happen.


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## Juan

> Easy on the #2 ever. It ain't gonna happen.


No kiddin, I can't believe he put Bird and Magic behind Duncan.


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## ltrain99

> Originally posted by <b>Juan</b>!
> 
> 
> No kiddin, I can't believe he put Bird and Magic behind Duncan.


But not Wilt?:laugh:


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## Juan

Sorry, forgot about Wilt.


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## Addis

He is not the best PF ever played, of course he can be if he continues like this. But in my opinion i rate Malone higher, he have done alot. I know its hard to face it since he was on a hoe team his whole career and moved to a faggg team now..but I mean the man did alot think about it.


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## NYCbballFan

Malone has done a lot in a long career, but Duncan was the best player on two championship teams and has already racked up all the top awards in just 6 seasons. Malone has top awards, too, but fewer of them.

At this point, Malone and Duncan are about even in my opinion and Duncan will surpass him very soon. No knock on Malone. We're talking about the very best of the best.


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## Juan

They both have the same amount of league MVP's, but Duncan has two finals MVP's. Malone could of had those if it wasn't for a guy named Jordan. 

If KM was to win a championship, would you guys still think that Duncan is the better PF?


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## MiamiHeat03

I still think Malone is the Best PF of alltime...........


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## Lethal Vertical

SO FAR, its close


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## PauloCatarino

What about... Elgin Baylor?

http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=BAYLOEL01 

Shouldn't he be considered?


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## kaniffmn

*not the best of all time*

if kevin garnett isn't considered a power forward...then duncan is the best of today and we'll see future, cuz who's to know what can happen. but should garnett be in that mix, though he has not won a title YET, and i stress YET cuz he's about to win one very shortly here....garnett is the better player and you all will see why he deserved the mvp last year. garnett didn't have the quality of players duncan had with him this last year, and now that he does, he might mess around and average a triple double for the year...look at the numbers, they don't lie. garnett is the better player.


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## sheefo13

wow! tim duncan! the greatest PF ever? he has all the spurs fans brain washed. the guy wins 2 mvps and 2 championships and he is the greatest evr. he was never better than barkley and malone and im not saying they are the best ever. maybe the spurs also have the greatest center ever( robinson), greatest point guard ( parker), greatest coach ( popovich), and the greatest sixth man ever (manu). please, he isnt even the best player in the league


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## sheefo13

> Originally posted by <b>texan</b>!
> tim duncan is 28 yrs old. imo he is arguably the best pf ever and i think by the end of his career in 8 or 10 more years he could be considered the best or 2nd best pf/c of all time. think about it the list right now of best pf/c is
> 
> 1. Wilt Chamberlain
> 2. kareem
> 3. russell
> 4. mchale/barkley/malone
> 
> duncan is prolly a top 5 or 10 pf/c of all time already and by the end of his career could surpass wilt and kareem as being the best ever. i think he will be a top 5 all time player when he retires
> 
> 1. MJ
> 2. Duncan
> 3. Wilt
> 4. Magic
> 5. Bird
> 
> shaq dont come close


wow
thats all i can say.


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## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>sheefo13</b>!
> wow! tim duncan! the greatest PF ever? he has all the spurs fans brain washed. the guy wins 2 mvps and 2 championships and he is the greatest evr. he was never better than barkley and malone and im not saying they are the best ever. maybe the spurs also have the greatest center ever( robinson), greatest point guard ( parker), greatest coach ( popovich), and the greatest sixth man ever (manu). please, he isnt even the best player in the league


2 rings and 2 MVPs in nothing to sneeze at. He's won more rings than Barkley and Malone combined. He's putting together a very impressive body of work and in 7-8 years I think he'll be considered the greatest PF of all time. Will he be the greatest player of all time? I doubt it. I don't even know if he'll be in the top 10. However, to deny his greatness is just asinine. Incredibly asinine.


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## STING

Duncan is an excellent player, but you have to consider the company you are including him in when you claim he is the best power forward ever. I don't know if you guys ever saw some of things Barkley, Ewing, Kareem, Wilt, and Mchale used to do, but there are alot of great big men in the history of the NBA, and they have all had incredible careers. Wait till Duncan gets a little older before you start putting him with these guys.


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## socco

> Originally posted by <b>crackman</b>!
> Well is he, i am starting to question it, how good is this gut, he has achieved so much already in his relatively hsort career, two MVP's, two rings, 2 finals mvp's, 10000+points, 5,000+ boards, sure guys like karl malone come to mind, but TD will one day achieve everything that malone has, except maybe that 32,000 point mark.
> 
> what do you guys think, who else is out there now or ever that ven compares to TD


Tim Duncan isn't even the best PF in the league right now, during his prime(maybe not to his prime yet actually, which is kinda scary). So I don't see him as being the best all-time, though he could be one day. 



> Originally posted by <b>NYCbballFan</b>!
> Malone has done a lot in a long career, but Duncan was the best player on two championship teams and has already racked up all the top awards in just 6 seasons. Malone has top awards, too, but fewer of them.
> 
> At this point, Malone and Duncan are about even in my opinion and Duncan will surpass him very soon. No knock on Malone. We're talking about the very best of the best.


How does Duncan have more awards? Finals MVPs maybe, but that's probly it. And Malon eleads in pretty much everything else.



> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> 2 rings and 2 MVPs in nothing to sneeze at. He's won more rings than Barkley and Malone combined. He's putting together a very impressive body of work and in 7-8 years I think he'll be considered the greatest PF of all time. Will he be the greatest player of all time? I doubt it. I don't even know if he'll be in the top 10. However, to deny his greatness is just asinine. Incredibly asinine.


Would Duncan have titles if he was playing 5-10 years ago? Hell no. Would Duncan have titles if he was on the Wolves instead of the Spurs? Hell no. That's why I don't value titles as much as all you guys do. Because it takes guys around a team to win, and the last generation of players had to go up against the greatest ever(both player and team), so you can't expect to win titles then. 


I agree with what STING said.


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## NYCbballFan

Malone has played 11 years more than Duncan (17-6).

Top awards. In 11 fewer seasons, Duncan already beats Malone in post-season (2-time Finals MVP) and defensive awards. Tied with Malone in MVP awards at 2. Duncan won ROY, which Malone didn't. Duncan catching up with the 1st team all-NBAs should be a matter of time barring some career-shortening malady. So far, Duncan is 6-for-6 on the all-NBA 1st team. He also has 5 1st team all-NBA defensive awards and 1 2nd team award. For what it's worth, Malone has 2 all-star MVP awards to Duncan's 1 all-star MVP. 

Malone has quite a resume, obviously as he is one of the best of all time and has had a long career, but for a 6 year span, Duncan is unmatched as a PF. In 6 seasons, Duncan has already had a career, at least in terms of quality, that matches favorably with Malone's. Assuming a reasonably long career, Duncan should have the status as best PF ever by the time he leaves the game. 

Subjectively, I think Duncan at age 27 is a better player than Malone was at the same stage of his career. Duncan is certainly the best PF in the game today. 

In terms of Finals, the vulnerability of the 98 Bulls is comparable to that of the 03 Lakers. The Spurs and Duncan beat their defending champ. The Jazz and Malone lost to theirs.


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## NYCbballFan

> Originally posted by <b>Juan</b>!
> They both have the same amount of league MVP's, but Duncan has two finals MVP's. Malone could of had those if it wasn't for a guy named Jordan.
> 
> If KM was to win a championship, would you guys still think that Duncan is the better PF?


Well, Kidd could be a Finals MVP now if it wasn't for Duncan. For that matter, Latrell Sprewell could be a Finals MVP now if it wasn't for Duncan. 

If Malone wins a championship with the Lakers, it would be like Drexler winning his championship with Olajuwon or Robinson winning his championship (at least the 2nd one) with Duncan. I'll give Malone the benefit of the doubt and put him on a higher level than Mitch Richmond's championship with the Lakers. Malone, at this stage, is past his point of LEADING a team to the championship such as Duncan has done twice. Malone's a supporting role player now who may or may not contribute as much as Robert Horry did.


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## NYCbballFan

> Originally posted by <b>sheefo13</b>!
> please, he isnt even the best player in the league


NBA MVP. Finals MVP. 1st team all-NBA. 1st team all-defense NBA. 

What in that description says Duncan isn't the best player in the league today?


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## kaniffmn

*don't insult kevin garnett like that*

kevin garnett is the best player in the league today


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## STING

You know i actually agree. If i could start a team with one player i'd probably choose KG. Call me crazy everyone on that one, i know you're going to.


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## NYCbballFan

I'd rather start a team with Duncan. 

It's undeniable that KG is uniquely gifted, terrific player. But, I think of him as a bigger, 21st century version of Scottie Pippen - a superstar complementary player. 

Duncan, to me, is more dominant, more of a center-piece player. Both are very versatile, but a big thing for me is that as 7-footers, TD is the superior low-post player. 

TD would be the 1st player I'd pick to start a team. KG would be the 2nd pick, before Kobe, T-Mac and all the other young stars. 

Kidd and TD together would have been a balletic display of two of the best side-2-side, end-2-end operators in the NBA. Still, the better pairing, one of my dream pairings, is TD and KG in the same front-court. I'm upset that the Spurs didn't clear money to go hard after KG next season.


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## kaniffmn

*superior??*

you say superior like kg has no post game. that man will eat you alive from any where on the damn court. can duncan shoot threes? can duncan bring the ball up the court like a point guard? why are we even mentioning this when duncan has never averaged over 20 pts. 10 reb. and 5 ast. in one year? A larger, more versatile scottie pippen? are you out of your mind? kevin garnett is going to be a way better player than scottie pippen ever was...sure duncan won mvp twice, although i feel this year garnett got the shaft because he had better numbers with a team that had less to work with and they still won 50 games. but if that's how the nba wants kevin to be, then that's the way it'll be. every single year, kg comes back harder, and we'll see who'll be the better player, who'll be the mvp, and who'll make it further in the playoffs.


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## Silent But Deadly

I remember the All-American College Team (I think it was) vs. the NBA Dream Time match from some time back, Duncan was on the College team, and he seriously embarassed some of the Dream Team players. I don't see why people don't look at Duncan the same way they look at Kobe, Shaq, or possibly in the future, Jordan. He is underrated, and he is extremely good on defense, offense, everything, Tim Duncan is a great basketball player. Not to mention, he was the top player in the U.S. - Puerto Rico game.


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## MJG

It's always tough to look at a current player who hasn't been in the league for that long and consider them an all-time great. I personally don't like to try to think of the best all-time in any area, as it's just way too difficult to narrow it down to one. With that said, at this point in his career I think you can make a strong case for Duncan as the top PF in NBA history as well as being one of the best players period. However, someone could easily argue for another PF, like Malone, and be equally as valid.


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## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>Silent But Deadly</b>!
> I remember the All-American College Team (I think it was) vs. the NBA Dream Time match from some time back, Duncan was on the College team, and he seriously embarassed some of the Dream Team players. I don't see why people don't look at Duncan the same way they look at Kobe, Shaq, or possibly in the future, Jordan. He is underrated, and he is extremely good on defense, offense, everything, Tim Duncan is a great basketball player. Not to mention, he was the top player in the U.S. - Puerto Rico game.


People do look at Duncan in that group. Many people on this board consider Duncan the best player in the league, me not being one of them. Duncan is overrated, he wins a championship and now some of you think he is the best power forward ever, and the second best player to MJ ever. What were you guys saying about Shaq after the Lakers won their third straight title? I can only imagine. Shaq has had a much better career than Duncan and he will go down as the better player.


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## double3peat

Ok to even compare Duncan to Wilt, Russel, and Jabar are absurd. Those players are IMO renaked up there With Jordan and Magic as some of the utmost best players ever seen in Basketball.

As far as the ebst PF ever i'd have to say right now hes second to Malone just because of the indredible things hes done in his career. When Duncan is approaching 40 and still posting numbers like Malone is, then you can compare him to Malone. But as it stands right now he has six years under his belt and stands closer to becoming a fad then a legend. Don't get me wrong, i think hes an amazing player, but to compare him to Malone and other legends of this game is pretty much insulting to all of them.

As far as Duncan stands at being the best player in the league right now i'd put his third behind KG and Kobe. I put him behind KG because plain and simple w/o KG the Wolves would have been challnging the Cavs and Nugs to get Lebron in the draft. And Kobe because regardless of what you Laker haters say, to put up the numbers Kobe puts up with a player like Shaq on the team is amazing, and the fact that his numbers have gone up every season is even more amazing. 



And on a side note, the guy who said Duncan was better then Shaq is dilusional. i'm not even gonna bother arguing this, because if you really believe that then there is no point in arguing.


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## NYCbballFan

That actually should be the other way around. That Shaq can score as much as he can playing with a player like Kobe is more surprising. Kobe initiates the offense, not Shaq, and Kobe likes to take his shots. Shaq is the one who (rightfully) complains that he's not being given the ball enough, not Kobe who has a tendency to force shots. Kobe, more so than Shaq, can get away with shooting his arms off because there aren't any other scorers on the team. 

Kobe is an excellent player, but he has weaknesses. He's a selfish scorer who's mostly improved on his strengths since he's entered the NBA, but his weaknesses, like understanding of teamwork and decision-making still have room for improvement.

For a fad, Duncan sure has racked up some lasting achievements. If he was injured tomorrow and ended his career, Duncan would have to be considered one of the best ever. His 1st 6 years match up very favorably with HoF players. If he continues on his pace for 4 more seasons, he will definitely be an all-time player. 

Skills-wise, Duncan as a technician is better than Shaq, but Shaq, whose skills are also very good, is the more dominant player because of his overwhelming physical superiority.


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## UKfan4Life

> Originally posted by <b>double3peat</b>
> 
> 
> And on a side note, the guy who said Duncan was better then Shaq is dilusional. i'm not even gonna bother arguing this, because if you really believe that then there is no point in arguing.


Duncan is better than Shaq talent-wise.  
Shaq is big, strong, and heavy. Nothing more, nothing less. Duncan is just an all around, solid, talentful player. Sure Shaq is dominant, but only because he's so big and strong and heavy. NO TALENT! The way he shoots his free throws is laughable. He doesn't attempt a shot more than 6 feet from the basket. Duncan, however, can shoot mid-range and has a better FT%. Once Shaq is retired, the NBA will be much better off. Shaq is doing NOTHING to progress the game. I know, not every player can be expected to somehow progress the game, but since Shaq is so "popular" and so "good" how come he hasn't?


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## kaniffmn

like that justin timberlake song says...where is the love? 
that's what i wanna know...where is the love for KG. sure, this is a san antonio board...but i know, as well as everyone that kevin garnett deserves to be mentioned in any contemplation of the best power forward/player in the game today because he is simply the best. 

what i read about kobe being a top two guy in the league is ridiculous. shaq is the lakeshow. however shaq goes, the lakers go. we were debating who means most when taking the player off the team and KG and duncan are definitely the tops in that category followed by shaq. but then to say kobe is amongst those is absurd. without kobe, the lakers would still be a playoff team. i can think of at least a few other teams that would just falter without their star player. iverson/sixers, mcgrady/magic, call me crazy, but i would doubt the nets without kidd. but anyways, this isn't what the topic is supposed to be about...it's about who's the best power forward in the league and possibly of all time. and tim duncan is neither.


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## NYCbballFan

> Originally posted by <b>kaniffmn</b>!
> like that justin timberlake song says...where is the love?
> that's what i wanna know...where is the love for KG. sure, this is a san antonio board...but i know, as well as everyone that kevin garnett deserves to be mentioned in any contemplation of the best power forward/player in the game today because he is simply the best.


Sure, KG gets love. He's one of the best players in the NBA today. He's just not as good as Tim Duncan who can make a very good case for being THE best player in the NBA today.


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## maKINGSofgreatness

Im gonna have to give shaq the best power forward ever title, because he is about as much a 4 as Duncan is, I mean, you guys all deny it, but you all know its true...


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## UKfan4Life

> Originally posted by <b>maKINGSofgreatness</b>!
> Im gonna have to give shaq the best power forward ever title, because he is about as much a 4 as Duncan is, I mean, you guys all deny it, but you all know its true...


You have got to be kidding me. :nonono:

1) Shaq has no talent. Big and strong and heavy. 2) He's a center. 3) He is doing NOTHING to improve on the game of basketball or help it move along.

We're denying it because the only reason Shaq is going down in the HOF is because of the numbers he puts up. *Shaq is talent-less*. Don't deny _that_, you know its true. Shaq doesn't attempt a shot or hook shot from more than 4 feet from the basket. The way he shoots free throws is laughable. I'd love to have Shaq on my team if I were a GM or head coach, but since I'm not, I hate Shaq, and anyone who says he's the greatest CENTER of all time probably forgets about Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, and Moses Malone, just to name three.


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## Juan

Centers are suppose to play near the basket, Wilt, Russell and Moses never played away from the basket either. Shaq might not be the most talented but he does have some talent. He has good foot work and he has a nice fade away jump shot. If you are strong, then why not take advantage of that. All Duncan has over Shaq is a jump shot, and that is because Duncan does not really like to play inside unless a smaller guy is guarding him.

We will see how well Duncan plays defense with out Robinson in there to help him out. I only see Duncan picking up more fouls since all the guys they have picked up are not know for playing defense, and the more Euros on your team, the softer the team gets.


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## mofo202

Elvin Hayes!!!!!

He should be the greatest PF of all time.


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## UKfan4Life

> Originally posted by <b>Juan</b>!
> Centers are suppose to play near the basket, Wilt, Russell and Moses never played away from the basket either. Shaq might not be the most talented but he does have some talent. He has good foot work and he has a nice fade away jump shot. If you are strong, then why not take advantage of that. All Duncan has over Shaq is a jump shot, and that is because Duncan does not really like to play inside unless a smaller guy is guarding him.
> 
> We will see how well Duncan plays defense with out Robinson in there to help him out. I only see Duncan picking up more fouls since all the guys they have picked up are not know for playing defense, and the more Euros on your team, the softer the team gets.


I do see your point. :yes: 

But for the record, I didn't say anything about Duncan being better than Shaq or the greatest PF of all time. Shaq can dominate anybody, which is why I'd want him on my team. But he IS talent-less. I haven't seen him do many fade-away jumpers (that I can remember). All I really remember seeing him doing in every game is backing down, dunking, or shooting a hook shot 4 feet from the basket.


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## NYCbballFan

> Originally posted by <b>Juan</b>!
> Centers are suppose to play near the basket, Wilt, Russell and Moses never played away from the basket either. Shaq might not be the most talented but he does have some talent. He has good foot work and he has a nice fade away jump shot. If you are strong, then why not take advantage of that. All Duncan has over Shaq is a jump shot, and that is because Duncan does not really like to play inside unless a smaller guy is guarding him.
> 
> We will see how well Duncan plays defense with out Robinson in there to help him out. I only see Duncan picking up more fouls since all the guys they have picked up are not know for playing defense, and the more Euros on your team, the softer the team gets.


The low-post thing is one of the main reasons why I rate Duncan over KG as a PF. 

Can't knock Shaq. He is skilled, even if his skills don't really extend beyond 10 feet from the basket. Within that semi-circle, he's one of the most dominant ever. I always thought that it was too bad Shaq didn't keep his weight around 290-310. When he first came into the NBA, he had very few skills but just on power, size, agility and quickness, he dominated. As he's gained skills, he got too big and has been hurt a lot. He lost the agility and quickness of his early years. In those rare games he can move well, he's about as productive a player as there is in the NBA.

That said, Duncan has a lot more moves than Shaq, but it's not like Shaq needs TD's arsenal to be effective. I am curious to see how Duncan will do without D-Rob. I have no doubts about Duncan's defense, but covering for the likes of Hedo and Rasho will strain him. Horry should help, but I dunno how much he has left in the tank.


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## Petey

He has put together an extremely impressive streak of productive seasons, a few more and I am sure his place will be set. When it's all said and done, if he can put up numbers like this for the next 8 years, yes I think he will have past Malone.

-Petey


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## Johnny Mac

Duncan needs about 5 more consistant seasons the way hes been playing to be considered the best PF of all time in my opinion. Especially in an league packed with great PFs, the fact that Duncan has set himself apart from them is very impressive. 

KG fans can come in here and claim that Duncan is overrated and all that, but its a lot of jealousy. The fact that KG is almost equally talented as Duncan, and hasn't accomplished nearly as much has got to really bother KG fans. Which is understandable. I hope KG gets some of the credit he deserves as the 2nd best player in the league.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

> Originally posted by <b>UKfan4Life</b>!
> Duncan is better than Shaq talent-wise.


I hope that smiley means you are joking.



> Shaq is big, strong, and heavy. Nothing more, nothing less.


But Duncan isn't big and strong? He's probably the biggest PF in the game, so that argument doesn't really work.



> Duncan is just an all around, solid, talentful player.


 I agree that he is talented.



> NO TALENT! The way he shoots his free throws is laughable. He doesn't attempt a shot more than 6 feet from the basket. Duncan, however, can shoot mid-range and has a better FT%.


First, Duncan has struggled with free-throws as well, as secondly, does more shooting range make a better player? I guess Steve Kerr must be the GOAT, right?



> Once Shaq is retired, the NBA will be much better off. Shaq is doing NOTHING to progress the game. I know, not every player can be expected to somehow progress the game, but since Shaq is so "popular" and so "good" how come he hasn't?


How has Duncan changed the game?


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## UKfan4Life

> I hope that smiley means you are joking.


Nope. Shaq is talent-less, IMO.




> But Duncan isn't big and strong? He's probably the biggest PF in the game, so that argument doesn't really work.


But Duncan actually has talent going for him.






> First, Duncan has struggled with free-throws as well, as secondly, does more shooting range make a better player? I guess Steve Kerr must be the GOAT, right?


No, more shooting range doesn't make a better player, but it does show the player has more talent, especially if he's a big man. Shaq doesn't have any shooting range, which is another reason why I think he is talent-less. And Duncan has better FT% than Shaq.




> How has Duncan changed the game?


Duncan is helping bring back the fundamentals of being a pure big man back into the game, which is a lot more than what Shaq is doing. 



The whole Shaq being talent-less thing you may disagree with, since you're a Lakers fan, but that's cool. It's just my opinion. Even some non-Lakers fans would disagree with me. Again, it's my opinion.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

> Originally posted by <b>UKfan4Life</b>!
> Nope. Shaq is talent-less, IMO.


He wouldn't be winning MVP if he was talentless. You can't expect anyone to believe you win you call a three-time Finals MVP talentless.



> But Duncan actually has talent going for him.


Like what? More shooting range? 



> No, more shooting range doesn't make a better player, but it does show the player has more talent, especially if he's a big man.


Well than Horace Grant must be the most skilled big man ever, because he can drill the 20 footers. Even better than your beloved Duncan.



> Duncan is helping bring back the fundamentals of being a pure big man back into the game, which is a lot more than what Shaq is doing.


Yeah right. First of all, Tim is not a "pure" fundamental player. Just because he shoots bank shots does not make him a fundamental player. Second, you think any young players are actually copying Duncan? Do you really think he will have that much impact on future big men? 



> The whole Shaq being talent-less thing you may disagree with, since you're a Lakers fan, but that's cool. It's just my opinion. Even some non-Lakers fans would disagree with me. Again, it's my opinion.


I just have one question: If Shaq only succeeds because of his size, why don't other big men with similar size, like DeSagana Diop, dominate like Shaq?


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Wilt_The_Stilt</b>!
> Yeah right. First of all, Tim is not a "pure" fundamental player. Just because he shoots bank shots does not make him a fundamental player. Second, you think any young players are actually copying Duncan? Do you really think he will have that much impact on future big men?


If you think that all he has is a bank shot, you need to watch him play more. He is big and strong, but he also has good handles, a good midrange shot, baby hooks, and incredible post footwork. 

Will any young big men model their game after his? Maybe not. Should they? YES. 

Not everyone can rely on their size like Shaq does, and by having Tim Duncan-like post skills, it will give you the same advantage in a different way. 

Ask any basketball coach what post player of todays NBA would they want their big men to learn from and watch tapes of...if they say anyone but Duncan they should be fired.


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## UKfan4Life

> He wouldn't be winning MVP if he was talentless. You can't expect anyone to believe you win you call a three-time Finals MVP talentless.


He wins Finals MVP's because of the numbers he puts up. I still think he's talent-less. 




> Like what? More shooting range?


That and the things John the Cool Kid listed. Great footwork, a variety of post moves, great hook shots, a good mid-range jumper (something a lot of the players in todays game lack), and even mediocre handles. That's a whole lot more than what Shaq has.




> Well than Horace Grant must be the most skilled big man ever, because he can drill the 20 footers. Even better than your beloved Duncan.


Hey, will you tell me where I said good shooting for big men makes them the best players? I didn't. But it makes them just that little bit more talentful. Second, don't call Duncan my "beloved Duncan" because I don't neccessarily like Duncan, but I don't hate him either.




> Yeah right. First of all, Tim is not a "pure" fundamental player. Just because he shoots bank shots does not make him a fundamental player. Second, you think any young players are actually copying Duncan? Do you really think he will have that much impact on future big men?


Refer to John the Cool Kid's post on my reply to this quote.





> I just have one question: If Shaq only succeeds because of his size, why don't other big men with similar size, like DeSagana Diop, dominate like Shaq?


Because Shaq generally weighs more and is stronger than the other big men. His general post move is to back down and either A) dunk or B) take a hook shot no more than 5-6 feet from the basket. If Shaq had Duncan's post moves, mid-range jumper, and footwork, then he would be even MORE dominant than he is now, and I would actually like him.


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## PauloCatarino

> Originally posted by <b>UKfan4Life</b>!
> Because Shaq generally weighs more and is stronger than the other big men. His general post move is to back down and either A) dunk or B) take a hook shot no more than 5-6 feet from the basket. If Shaq had Duncan's post moves, mid-range jumper, and footwork, then he would be even MORE dominant than he is now, and I would actually like him.


That´s a no-no, really...

His "general post move"? Well, it has been a long time since i saw Shaq do that in a consistent base. Maybe because with the zone defense he is often double or triple teamed in the paint (even Shaq can´t back down 2 forwards and a center... consistently!).

About the dunks: most of Shaq's dunks come when he catches the ball close to the basket and has a chance to elevate before the help defender(s) come. And it´s true he dunks a lot.
Well, i don´t see the reason why he would change it, i mean, a dunk is the most certain move to score, isn´t it?

About the "shooting range": it´s true that Shaq doesn´t have a jump shot, but so what?
Phil Jackson to Shaq: 
"- Look, Big Toe, i know you average like 28 ppg in your career, 3 rings, MVPs and all, but i don´t like the way you play. I think your talentless.
From now on you´ll be getting the ball outside the paint and every time you step into it you´ll pay $5.000. Start working on those 15-footers...
Shaq to Jackson: [edited] {edited] [edited[ [edited] "

IMO, Shaq is a fundamentally sound player: he has good footwork in the post, knows his hook shots, is a great passer for a center, is a intimidator on defense (when he´s willing, wich hasn´t been the case) and generally creates havok on offense.
I mean, what else do you want from a center?
Shaq is the last great pure (hate to use that word) center in the league. And pure centers play close to the basket.


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## UKfan4Life

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> That´s a no-no, really...
> 
> His "general post move"? Well, it has been a long time since i saw Shaq do that in a consistent base. Maybe because with the zone defense he is often double or triple teamed in the paint (even Shaq can´t back down 2 forwards and a center... consistently!).
> 
> About the dunks: most of Shaq's dunks come when he catches the ball close to the basket and has a chance to elevate before the help defender(s) come. And it´s true he dunks a lot.
> Well, i don´t see the reason why he would change it, i mean, a dunk is the most certain move to score, isn´t it?
> 
> About the "shooting range": it´s true that Shaq doesn´t have a jump shot, but so what?
> Phil Jackson to Shaq:
> "- Look, Big Toe, i know you average like 28 ppg in your career, 3 rings, MVPs and all, but i don´t like the way you play. I think your talentless.
> From now on you´ll be getting the ball outside the paint and every time you step into it you´ll pay $5.000. Start working on those 15-footers...
> Shaq to Jackson: [edited] {edited] [edited[ [edited] "
> 
> IMO, Shaq is a fundamentally sound player: he has good footwork in the post, knows his hook shots, is a great passer for a center, is a intimidator on defense (when he´s willing, wich hasn´t been the case) and generally creates havok on offense.
> I mean, what else do you want from a center?
> Shaq is the last great pure (hate to use that word) center in the league. And pure centers play close to the basket.


Obivously I'm not going to change your mind on any of this, so I'm just going to say I disagree with every last thing you said in this post. I do recall Shaq backing down his defender a lot if he isn't getting double teamed, and about him being a good passer. Ha, I don't think so. You said it yourself. He gets double teamed and he can't back down 2 post players at once, so that leaves one man completely open, all Shaq has to do is find him and put the ball in his hands. Anybody can do that. But of course, you're a loyal Laker fan, and nothing I say will change your's or anyone else's opinion. We must agree to disagree.


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## PauloCatarino

> Originally posted by <b>UKfan4Life</b>!
> 
> 
> Obivously I'm not going to change your mind on any of this, so I'm just going to say I disagree with every last thing you said in this post. I do recall Shaq backing down his defender a lot if he isn't getting double teamed, and about him being a good passer. Ha, I don't think so. You said it yourself. He gets double teamed and he can't back down 2 post players at once, so that leaves one man completely open, all Shaq has to do is find him and put the ball in his hands. Anybody can do that. But of course, you're a loyal Laker fan, and nothing I say will change your's or anyone else's opinion. We must agree to disagree.


UKfan4Life, i feel what you´re saying.

But you are in denial, dude. 
You just can´t come up saying that Shaq has NO talent. 
Sure his game is pure power. so what?
Tell me, in the History of the game, who can you say can equal Shaq in his game?
I agree Shaq has limited game, but would you prefer Brad Daugherty in his place?
Shaq makes the most of his habilities (sp?). In doing so, he conquered everything in his pass.
Give the fat-*** a litte credit, man, for you won´t see noone the likes of him for a looooooong time.


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## UKfan4Life

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> UKfan4Life, i feel what you´re saying.
> 
> But you are in denial, dude.
> You just can´t come up saying that Shaq has NO talent.
> Sure his game is pure power. so what?
> Tell me, in the History of the game, who can you say can equal Shaq in his game?
> I agree Shaq has limited game, but would you prefer Brad Daugherty in his place?
> Shaq makes the most of his habilities (sp?). In doing so, he conquered everything in his pass.
> Give the fat-*** a litte credit, man, for you won´t see noone the likes of him for a looooooong time.


I am giving Shaq credit, man. I've said in a few posts in this thread that Shaq is a dominant player. he puts up big numbers, but I still don't see where the talent is. Now, as for who can equal Shaq in the history of the NBA, that one's easy. The best center of all time, Wilt Chamberlain (who also played for the Lakers, so you don't have to disagree :grinning: ).


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## PauloCatarino

> Originally posted by <b>UKfan4Life</b>!
> 
> 
> I am giving Shaq credit, man. I've said in a few posts in this thread that Shaq is a dominant player. he puts up big numbers, but I still don't see where the talent is. Now, as for who can equal Shaq in the history of the NBA, that one's easy. The best center of all time, Wilt Chamberlain (who also played for the Lakers, so you don't have to disagree :grinning: ).


Exactly my point...  
If the only comparison to the Big Toe is the Greatest Center Ever, he must be doing something right...


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## UKfan4Life

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly my point...
> If the only comparison to the Big Toe is the Greatest Center Ever, he must be doing something right...


Well as I said, I hate Shaq, so I do think Wilt is a lot better than Shaq. But as I also said before, Wilt played for the Lakers as well, so there's no need to disagree.


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## compsciguy78

I want to wait until next year to claim Duncan as the greatest PF of all time. If the Spurs win another championship I would give it to him, barring he plays another couple of years of basketball. 

I almost consider Duncan more of a Center than a Power Forward....isn't he going to play center next year?


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## MJG

> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> I almost consider Duncan more of a Center than a Power Forward....isn't he going to play center next year?


No, they signed Rasho Nesterovic to start at center.


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