# Yao Ming is better than Shaquille O'Neal.



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

100% fact. Shaquille isn't what he used to be, and Yao is growing into his own skin. When the season starts, Yao will be throwing up 20/20 type games all over the NBA. While, from Shaquille, we'd be lucky to see him average 15/9. Shaquille, he is an oldman now, a grizzled veteran perhaps, with less impact than ever, and especially less than Yao Ming. Yao Ming is the best center now. A hard realization for some to arrive at, but when looking objectively, it is one that rings true.


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## matt! (Feb 21, 2005)

sherako said:


> 100% fact. Shaquille isn't what he used to be, and Yao is growing into his own skin. When the season starts, Yao will be throwing up 20/20 type games all over the NBA. While, from Shaquille, we'd be lucky to see him average 15/9. Shaquille, he is an oldman now, a grizzled veteran perhaps, with less impact than ever, and especially less than Yao Ming. Yao Ming is the best center now. A hard realization for some to arrive at, but when looking objectively, it is one that rings true.


Umm...yeah. 

I don't really think there should be that many people who disagree with you, just the rogue Heat fan who says something stupid like "Shaq impacts the game more without the ball now than with the ball!" like teams are still triple teaming him constantly.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

True. Yao is really good on both ends. Best offensive center while also being one of the two or three best defensive centers.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

In my opinion, the declining Shaq isn't given enough credit or the impact he does have, but as matt! basically stated, outside of Yao haters, Miami fans or Shaq supporters most people generally believe Yao is the better player right now. Now, does that mean if you teamed up Wade and Yao they would win a championship?............I don't know about that.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Yao's probably a better player, but intangibly...I'd still prefer to have Shaq. It's something about how much better the players are around him that still makes him valuable, and Yao doesn't have that yet. I don't think the Heat win with Yao at center. Shaq's intangibles outweigh Yao for me.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

This isn't news to anyone that really follows the game.Shaq hasn't been Shaq-like for a couple of years,but then again the only thing really matters when you're Shaq are the playoffs and winning titles.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Its going to take more than 20 quality games in a row from Yao (all we've seen to this point) and either a first round exit or missing the playoffs entirely for me conclude that Yao is better than Shaq. 'matt!' can make fun of it all he wants, but there's alot more to impact on the game that tangible statistics. Shaq wears down the other team w/ his sheer physicality in a way that Yao has only dreamt of to this point. You guys can discount that all you want, of course, but its true.


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## EwingStarksOakley94 (May 13, 2003)

ralaw said:


> In my opinion, the declining Shaq isn't given enough credit or the impact he does have, but as matt! basically stated, outside of Yao haters, Miami fans or Shaq supporters most people generally believe Yao is the better player right now. Now, does that mean if you teamed up Wade and Yao they would win a championship?............I don't know about that.


Good point, when you think about going into a chamipionship series it's different. I'd probably take Shaq as well.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

So if Yao reverts back to 19/9, misses 25 games, and does not get past the 1st round....Is he still better?


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

Yao isnt better than Shaq until he proves he is better than Shaq. If wade misses as many games as Tmac did last year, what kind of numbers do you think Shaq is gonna put up. Shaq will never be on a team as bad as last years rockets, never. The better player is the player that wins you the most games, and the most big games. Give me the mighty Shaquille any day over Yao, until Yao proves he is better. All this Yao is better talk is speculation and people jumping the gun at this point.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> So if Yao reverts back to 19/9, misses 25 games, and does not get past the 1st round....Is he still better?


If Shaq continues his downwards spiral, averages 18/8, misses 23 games (like he did this year, lest we forget), and does not get to the Finals... then Yao is better.



> Yao isnt better than Shaq until he proves he is better than Shaq. If wade misses as many games as Tmac did last year, what kind of numbers do you think Shaq is gonna put up. Shaq will never be on a team as bad as last years rockets, never. The better player is the player that wins you the most games, and the most big games. Give me the mighty Shaquille any day over Yao, until Yao proves he is better. All this Yao is better talk is speculation and people jumping the gun at this point.


I agree that all this talk is speculation. Then again, half of the discussions on this forum is speculation, and there is nothing wrong with it.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

bronx43 said:


> If Shaq continues his downwards spiral, averages 18/8, misses 23 games (like he did this year, lest we forget), and does not get to the Finals... then Yao is better.


Huh?


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> So if Yao reverts back to 19/9, misses 25 games, and does not get past the 1st round....Is he still better?


has there ever been a time yao was averaging 19/9 and missed 25 games? i think you know the answer to that question.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

ScottVdub said:


> If wade misses as many games as Tmac did last year, what kind of numbers do you think Shaq is gonna put up. Shaq will never be on a team as bad as last years rockets, never.


The difference between the Rockets cast and the Heat cast starts with a more durable Wade and an injured McGrady, but doesn't end there. Take away Wade, Haslem, Williams, Payton, Posey and Walker while you're at it. All of them are better than any player the Rockets had last year sans Yao and McGrady. 

Shaquille would not do any better with the players Yao had last year, and especially in the western conference, would not have put them in the playoffs, or even close. He probably would have got fed up and demanded to be traded.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Kind of a misleading statement since Shaq is on the downside of his career. Yao is also better than Hakeem....right now. Wilt....right now.

It's like Marcus Camby was better than Patrick Ewing, in Ewing's final years.

What matters is if Yao can be better than Shaq in his prime.


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## Goubot (Aug 16, 2006)

Yeah, it's misleading but probably true. Yao's stock is about as high as it's ever been, having finished the season in a dominating fashion and being one of the best players in the World Championships. I'm expecting good things from him this season, though there's still a part of my mind that questions whether he can keep it up for an entire season.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> What matters is if Yao can be better than Shaq in his prime.


yao right now is better than shaq right now. that is all that matters right now and for this upcoming season. careers don't matter. primes don't matter. right now is what matters. yao is better than shaq right now.


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## Cambridgeshire (Jan 15, 2005)

Everyone has to remember one thing. Yao was raised in virtually an anti-American style country; never a NCAA player; never played against similar/better competition; never stepped a foot into the U.S. until 4 years ago. To grow and continue to grow to what he is now, and there are still doubters.

Every game, every season, he has shown improvement in all facets of -not only his game- but his character. The 30 games of last season was not a sudden and unexpected explosion. It was simply a step along the pattern of progress he has shown, since coming into the NBA. He is simply continuing this path towards domination.

Considering this, I have no doubt that he will be able to continue to maintain this performance, and continue his progression as a player into next season and to his peak. Anyone, who thinks he will be anything less than the number one centre next season has underlying bias against Yao.

Key here is this: Yao shows a clear and steady incline in performance and effectiveness. Last 30games was simply a milestone along this trend line. Shaq shows a clear and steady decline in performance effectiveness.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Its going to take more than 20 quality games in a row from Yao (all we've seen to this point)


You can take his entire 2005-06 season, actually. He put up virtually identical numbers to Shaq, and clearly played better defense. I doubt even Shaq fans would disagree that he's inferior to Yao on the defensive end. Yao is one of the top defensive centers while Shaq plays very uninspired defense.


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The difference between the Rockets cast and the Heat cast starts with a more durable Wade and an injured McGrady, but doesn't end there. Take away Wade, Haslem, Williams, Payton, Posey and Walker while you're at it. All of them are better than any player the Rockets had last year sans Yao and McGrady.
> 
> Shaquille would not do any better with the players Yao had last year, and especially in the western conference, would not have put them in the playoffs, or even close. He probably would have got fed up and demanded to be traded.



we will agree to disagree then. I think there is a possibility that Yao is better than Shaq but until he proves it I am not going to say that he is. This is his year to take the thrown as the best center in the league, he hasn't taken the thrown yet. I'm not going to say he is the best center until he is the best center. Shaq's teams flat out win, I think he is still the more valuable player, and it is a team game so I'll take the more valuable player. Shaq was almost the mvp a couple seasons ago with nearly the same numbers that he had last season. In fact the only reason Shaq's numers aren't what they used to be is because he plays 10 less minutes a game then he used to. If he still played 40 minutes a game then he would be getting around 25 and 12. He plays 30 mpg nowadays and averaged about 20 and 10 last season. and winning a ring. It is a big statement to say Yao is better than Shaq. It took Shaq years to prove he was without a doubt the best center in the league. Yao hasn't. Yao is arguably the best center in the league, arguably is the key word. If there is a split decision in a championship boxing match, the champ keeps his belt. Shaq keeps the belt until Yao proves it is undisputedly his.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> You can take his entire 2005-06 season, actually. He put up virtually identical numbers to Shaq, and clearly played better defense. I doubt even Shaq fans would disagree that he's inferior to Yao on the defensive end. Yao is one of the top defensive centers while Shaq plays very uninspired defense.


True -- I'd trade Shaq for Yao this year, I dunno about last year though, it wouldn't have guaranteed a championship.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

ScottVdub said:


> If he still played 40 minutes a game then he would be getting around 25 and 12. He plays 30 mpg nowadays and averaged about 20 and 10 last season.


The fact that he can't play 40 minutes is part of his ability level, not a mitigating point in his favour. 

Yao put up the same sorts of numbers, with better defense. How is that not proving himself better?


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> The fact that he can't play 40 minutes is part of his ability level, not a mitigating point in his favour.
> 
> Yao put up the same sorts of numbers, with better defense. How is that not proving himself better?


Shaq dont wanna play 40 minutes a game. He's got zo. Half a season on a bad team doesn't prove anything. But it does merit us having these kind of discussions, so he is on his way. Yao's D wasnt good enough to make the other team have less points then his, now was it. It isn't like you see people having field days on offense against Shaq.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

ScottVdub said:


> Yao's D wasnt good enough to make the other team have less points then his, now was it.


Neither was Duncan's in the WCF. I guess neither is particularly valuable defensively.


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Neither was Duncan's in the WCF. I guess neither is particularly valuable defensively.


His D got them to the Western Conference Finals. Yao's team is in the lottery. I think everyone is just tired of Shaq's success and can't wait to annoint a new king. Yao ain't the king yet. The big fella still is.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

ScottVdub said:


> His D got them to the Western Conference Finals. Yao's team is in the lottery. I think everyone is just tired of Shaq's success and can't wait to annoint a new king. Yao ain't the king yet. The big fella still is.


So you rate centers by how good their teammates are. Okay...by that measure, Shaq is the best (and the year before, Rasho Nesterovic was).

I prefer to rate centers by their own ability, not their teammates' ability.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> (and the year before, Rasho Nesterovic was).


:laugh:


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> So you rate centers by how good their teammates are. Okay...by that measure, Shaq is the best (and the year before, Rasho Nesterovic was).
> 
> I prefer to rate centers by their own ability, not their teammates' ability.


Like I said before, I'm not taking anything away from Yao. But Shaq effects the outcome of the game more than Yao does from what I see. There is a reason he has been to the playoffs every season since his rookie season, he understands how to win. Yao is getting there and he probably will take over as the #1 center this season and I'll give it to him when I beleive he is the #1 center. I really don't see anything special about Shaq's team mates other than Wade. Those are two of the best players in the league as far as impact on making their team win. Shaq has the biggest impact on winning of any center in the NBA.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

When Yao gets an All NBA 1st team selection, then he's better. Yao made All NBA 3rd team last year. Shaq got All NBA 1st team with inferior numbers. Shows what the voters think. Call me a rogue Heat fan, but even at this stage of his career I take Shaq over Yao. Yao is not a leader. Yao doesn't make everyone around him significantly better. Heck, Damon Jones shot 43% from 3 with Shaq and scored 12 ppg. Is he doing that in Cleveland? Yao plays better defense, and at this point will probably put up better numbers, but I guarantee you if we had traded Yao for Shaq that we wouldn't have made it past the Nets in the Eastern Conference Semis, let alone win the 'ship. Shaq is far more efficient with his touches, shooting 60%, and provides a stable base for the hlaf court offense to be run through. One day Yao may be able to do that, but until then all of Shaq's intangibles win out over Yao.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

everybody, but ESPN knows Yao, is way better than Shaq


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Yao looks funny on the court. 

Now with the above statement said. Yao's numbers will take a plunge next season with T-Mac coming back healthy, and an all around better ball club. Also hasn't it been Yao's passive nature through out his career that make's him so soft for such a big center ? Wasn't it T-Mac, and Van Gundy who have to challenge Yao to play "bigger", and have more impact on the floor because T-Mac can't get it done alone. I remember all this being said through out Yao's career so far. Next year won't be any different IMO. This is something that never had to be taught to the last great Big Center in the NBA Shaq.

Shaq > Yao


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

23AJ said:


> Yao's numbers will take a plunge next season with T-Mac coming back healthy, and an all around better ball club.


Not necessarily. Having T-Mac and Battier there (instead of Ryan Bowen and Stromile Swift) will give him more space in which to work.



> Also hasn't it been Yao's passive nature through out his career that make's him so soft for such a big center ?


How has he been soft? He plays in the post, he rebounds and he plays defense.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Shaq is the better player. He might not put up the stats he once did, but there was no doubt he had a huge role to play in that championship run


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## Hiro! (Sep 10, 2006)

Shaq owned Yao until last season when when Shaqs father time decided to catch up. Yao is now, Shaq is was.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Hiro! said:


> Shaq owned Yao until last season when when Shaqs father time decided to catch up. Yao is now, Shaq is was.


You do realize that the guy who 'is now' didn't make the playoffs, and the guy who 'is was' won the championship?


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## Hiro! (Sep 10, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> You do realize that the guy who 'is now' didn't make the playoffs, and the guy who 'is was' won the championship?


yes but the team won their championship last year not because of the "was" and the "now" didnt make the playoffs because of team injuries.


c'mon now there should be a batter logic than that given the circusmtances.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Hiro! said:


> yes but the team won their championship last year not because of the "was" and the "now" didnt make the playoffs because of team injuries.
> 
> 
> c'mon now there should be a batter logic than that given the circusmtances.


So you are arguing that the 'is was' is just starting for this coming season, and last year the 'is was' was still an 'is now'?


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## Hiro! (Sep 10, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> So you are arguing that the 'is was' is just starting for this coming season, and last year the 'is was' was still an 'is now'?


the was, was done as the leagues top big man last season as apparent in the finals, therefore the was was not considered the now in spite of his teams success, also the now further solidify his poition as the now putting up consistent double doubles, dominating the way the was used to dominate, though not clearly equal, you get the idea of the now taking over and the was passing the mantle involuntarily due to condition.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Hiro! said:


> the was, was done as the leagues top big man last season as apparent in the finals, therefore the was was not considered the now in spite of his teams success, also the now further solidify his poition as the now putting up consistent double doubles, dominating the way the was used to dominate, though not clearly equal, you get the idea of the now taking over and the was passing the mantle involuntarily due to condition.


Oddly enough, I think I understand what you are trying to say.


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## Hiro! (Sep 10, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> Oddly enough, I think I understand what you are trying to say.


aahhhh well then :cheers: mate.


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## JoeD (Sep 2, 2004)

Logically I think Yao is better... but I can't see Shaq on the Rockets not atleast going to the WCF. Maybe irrational, but I find it impossible to picture.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

JoeD said:


> Logically I think Yao is better... but I can't see Shaq on the Rockets not atleast going to the WCF. Maybe irrational, but I find it impossible to picture.


 with juwan howard, keith bogans, luther head, and rafer alston? i cant fathom that team making the wcf.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

I don't think a prime Yao will sniff a prime Shaq.


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## ballistixxx (Jan 24, 2006)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> I don't think a prime Yao will sniff a prime Shaq.


Duh?



> Now with the above statement said. Yao's numbers will take a plunge next season with T-Mac coming back healthy, and an all around better ball club. Also hasn't it been Yao's passive nature through out his career that make's him so soft for such a big center ? Wasn't it T-Mac, and Van Gundy who have to challenge Yao to play "bigger", and have more impact on the floor because T-Mac can't get it done alone. I remember all this being said through out Yao's career so far. Next year won't be any different IMO. This is something that never had to be taught to the last great Big Center in the NBA Shaq.
> 
> Shaq > Yao


as they say, past is past, now, Yao already uses his body to his advantage and he has learned to be a little bit agressive towards the rim, while effectively learning how to step back and shoot a jumper if needed, IMO, his numbers will be the same.



> Like I said before, I'm not taking anything away from Yao. But Shaq effects the outcome of the game more than Yao does from what I see. There is a reason he has been to the playoffs every season since his rookie season, he understands how to win. Yao is getting there and he probably will take over as the #1 center this season and I'll give it to him when I beleive he is the #1 center. I really don't see anything special about Shaq's team mates other than Wade. Those are two of the best players in the league as far as impact on making their team win. Shaq has the biggest impact on winning of any center in the NBA.


very well said, Yao may be better right now, but Shaq is still the best center out there to build a team around, not neccessarily because of his play, but more because of his presence and his influence to his younger teammates, he also gets along with team plays and can work very well with the coach



> You can take his entire 2005-06 season, actually. He put up virtually identical numbers to Shaq, and clearly played better defense. I doubt even Shaq fans would disagree that he's inferior to Yao on the defensive end. Yao is one of the top defensive centers while Shaq plays very uninspired defense.


in most cases, he doesn't have to, Shaq knows when to bring his A-game, but sometimes, just sometimes, he fails. When he sees Wade controlling the game then he'll relax a litlle and wouldn't play hard defense (which would get him into foul trouble anyway), but when he sees that they're losing then he'll try his best to carry his team. Shaq has more basketball IQ than people give him credit for.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

ScottVdub said:


> Yao isnt better than Shaq until he proves he is better than Shaq. If wade misses as many games as Tmac did last year, what kind of numbers do you think Shaq is gonna put up. Shaq will never be on a team as bad as last years rockets, never. The better player is the player that wins you the most games, and the most big games. Give me the mighty Shaquille any day over Yao, until Yao proves he is better. All this Yao is better talk is speculation and people jumping the gun at this point.


Oh that’s right, I didn’t know the Rockets and the Heat had identical teams and injuries last year. I must have missed that memo.. Doh!


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> You do realize that the guy who 'is now' didn't make the playoffs, and the guy who 'is was' won the championship?


Come on man...Seriously do you think that is a logical explanation considering last years injury plagued rockets? He was the ONE person to really step his game up single handedly carrying the Rockets to what wins they got... 




ScottVdub said:


> His D got them to the Western Conference Finals. Yao's team is in the lottery. I think everyone is just tired of Shaq's success and can't wait to annoint a new king. Yao ain't the king yet. The big fella still is.


Even more great logic...


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

OneBadLT123 said:


> Oh that’s right, I didn’t know the Rockets and the Heat had identical teams and injuries last year. I must have missed that memo.. Doh!



nope, not identical teams and injuries. the heat had shaq and therefore won a ring.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Hiro! said:


> Shaq owned Yao until last season when when Shaqs father time decided to catch up. Yao is now, Shaq is was.





SeaNet said:


> You do realize that the guy who 'is now' didn't make the playoffs, and the guy who 'is was' won the championship?





Hiro! said:


> yes but the team won their championship last year not because of the "was" and the "now" didnt make the playoffs because of team injuries.
> 
> 
> c'mon now there should be a batter logic than that given the circusmtances.





SeaNet said:


> So you are arguing that the 'is was' is just starting for this coming season, and last year the 'is was' was still an 'is now'?





Hiro! said:


> the was, was done as the leagues top big man last season as apparent in the finals, therefore the was was not considered the now in spite of his teams success, also the now further solidify his poition as the now putting up consistent double doubles, dominating the way the was used to dominate, though not clearly equal, you get the idea of the now taking over and the was passing the mantle involuntarily due to condition.





SeaNet said:


> Oddly enough, I think I understand what you are trying to say.


 :laugh:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Comparing Shaq to Yao goes beyond stats. Shaq just understands the game much better than Yao. Sadly Shaq rarely gets enough time to play on the court anymore, not with all the crazy calls. Regarding Bball IQ, I would say Shaq is light years ahead of Yao


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## ghoti (Jan 30, 2005)

If Yao plays as well all season as he did for those two glorious months last season, he will be the unquestioned most dominant player in the league.

And his 85+ FT% means he can be that dominant for the whole game, every game.

The sky is truly the limit.

That's potential right now, though. And that's _all_ it is.

Show us, Yao. I'm pulling for you.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

23AJ said:


> Yao looks funny on the court.
> 
> Now with the above statement said. Yao's numbers will take a plunge next season with T-Mac coming back healthy, and an all around better ball club. Also hasn't it been Yao's passive nature through out his career that make's him so soft for such a big center ? Wasn't it T-Mac, and Van Gundy who have to challenge Yao to play "bigger", and have more impact on the floor because T-Mac can't get it done alone. I remember all this being said through out Yao's career so far. Next year won't be any different IMO. This is something that never had to be taught to the last great Big Center in the NBA Shaq.
> 
> Shaq > Yao



I checked Yao's numbers when T-Mac played post toe-surgery (or what some people are calling "Yao's hot streak")...........

seems Yao's numbers after the surgery were actually much BETTER when T-Mac played than when he didn't play.

I checked this because when I read your post I knew you had not watched Yao after the surgery, since you are impliying that he just got numbers on a bad team.

That is wrong, the reason why his numbers were much better when T-Mac played (complete opposite of your theory) is because when T-Mac did not play he was triple teamed.

Yao actually had 27/16 average post surgery when T-Mac played.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

if im trying to win a championship THIS season, im still putting shaq on my team before yao.
i think he may well take the 'best center' title at some opint this season for good, but right now to get wins i still pick o'neil


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## Zei_Zao_LS (Apr 1, 2005)

Here's the breakdown, if we will. Let's see if we can't present both cases evenly... then I'll give my conclusion, which is better than everyone else's conclusion. (Cause it's mine.)

*-Yao-*
Yao is a massive, young, dedicated big man with a deft touch and a good close game. At 7'5, 300 lbs. he's just way bigger than everyone around him except the biggest of the bigs. On that note, he has a tendency to not really use that massive frame to it's fullest advantage, generally a bit passive on the floor from the standpoint of throwing his weight around. A somewhat streaky rebounder, he can either put up big rebounding numbers or sub-standard rebounding numbers. (For a dominant center, at least.) His defense sits in much the same light... sometimes he has a fire going and he'll be a game altering defensive presence. Sometimes, he's passive and a bit uncoordinated, though being coached by Van Gundy has helped him a lot in this respect, as he's a hard-headed, dig 'em down defensive coach. His conditioning is somewhat sketchy. If you force him to run the floor hard, he can't play in anything but 5 minute stretches. (Which is why the Suns don't really even need to draw up a way to contain him, he's not in the game long enough because he just can't run like that.)

However, Yao has shown that he can dominate on both ends, offensively and defensively, while pulling down serious numbers. The one thing you'll note when he's doing this, however, is that he's playing aggressively, something that the Rockets staff and his teammates have been desperately trying to infuse in him. They want him mean. They want him angry. They want him to be aggressive, and it's easy to see why. When he is, as has been noted quite a bit, he puts up massive numbers, finishing the season with absolutely amazing numbers. Yao has a good head for the game, and works hard to improve at it, almost to the point of unhealthy obsession.

The real question is: Will he keep this up? Will he become a dominant force, or will he phase in and out of the occasional domination?

*-Shaq-*
For a span of several years, Shaq was, without a doubt, the best big man in the game. Not even a contest. As soon as the great bigs like David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Patrick Ewing hit their declining years, a young, already dominant Shaq, further stepped up his game and became the clear and undisputed most dominant force in the NBA. Now? Shaq is on the same decline as Olajwuon, Ewing, and Robinson before him. Towards the tail end of his career, much like Robinson, Shaq has won a championship with a young rising superstar standing next to him, willing to defer and learn but knowing full well his teams destiny falls square on his shoulders. Shaq has hit the point that he's tired, a step slow, and not as strong as he used to be. His defense has slacked, his offense has dropped, and his rebounding isn't the same.

However, Shaq still brings the same presence to the floor that he did 6 years ago. He's still the big guy. He's the 7'1, 330 pound monster who will score on you if he gets within 8 feet of the hoop... and there's nothing you can do about it. His passing skills, already phenomenal for a man of his size and position, have only gotten better. He still draws double teams, even if he doesn't have the ball. He still draws the occasional triple team, because he's still Shaq. He still goes to the line as much as nearly any other player in the NBA. He still opens up more wide open shots for his team mates than any other big man in the game. His basketball IQ is amazing, and his footwork is tremendous for a man of his size.

The question: How steep is this decline? How long can he still be Shaq Diesel before he has to hand over the keys and buy an Oldsmobile?

*-The Now-*
As of this year, I'm still convinced that you want Shaq. Shaq is still a true impact player in every sense of the word, and he'll continue to make everyone around him a better player just by being on the floor. 

That said... I don't think anyone can say that about the 07-08 season with any real expectations of him doing it.

*-The Franchise-*
If you were forced to choose any center in the league to build your team around, you choose Yao. He's young. He's a force on the inside. He's still going to be in the league for years to come... and he's not going to stop improving for a good while. While Shaq may very well be the best center *this* year... Yao will quickly replace him in that respect before long.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Since the question is right now, I'll take Yao. But as a previous poster said, it's a draw, and the defending champ keeps the belt. Shaq still has by far the biggest impact in the game. Being doubled and tripled without the ball allowed Wade(with a lil help from the refs) to do as he chose on the court. But Yao has been putting up monster numbers like the old Shaq. Yao is gonna be undoubtly the best center at season's end. As of now Yao should have everything going for him, as long as his team stays injury free. Be prepared to see an insane season from Yao.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Shaq is not triple-teamed anymore, nor is he doubled more than Yao is.

Yao draws a constant double-team now and, if McGrady is not playing, teams sometimes triple-team Yao and dare the other Rockets to hit shots.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Shaq is not triple-teamed anymore, nor is he doubled more than Yao is.
> 
> Yao draws a constant double-team now and, if McGrady is not playing, teams sometimes triple-team Yao and dare the other Rockets to hit shots.


But does that make Yao a better player than Shaq. You switch Yao with Shaq, and I dont even think the Heat would have beaten the Bulls


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

HB said:


> But does that make Yao a better player than Shaq.


That alone does not make him better, no. I was simply disagreeing that Shaq has more "impact" that doesn't show up in the numbers.

Yao putting up similar production with much better defense makes him a better player than Shaq.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

I dont know wasnt it Dallas plan to triple and double team Shaq everytime he touched the ball in games 1 and 2 in the NBA Finals. I dont think Yao would have would have been triple or double team like Shaq was in the Finals.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

OneBadLT123 said:


> Come on man...Seriously do you think that is a logical explanation considering last years injury plagued rockets? He was the ONE person to really step his game up single handedly carrying the Rockets to what wins they got...


20 games of top caliber play. That was it. 20 games and you're ready to annoint him over Shaq, a guy who won the title last year, and was the runner up for the MVP of the league the year before. And I'm the one who's got logic problems?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> 20 games of top caliber play. That was it. 20 games and you're ready to annoint him over Shaq, a guy who won the title last year, and was the runner up for the MVP of the league the year before. And I'm the one who's got logic problems?


Take his entire season. In terms of production, it was better than Shaq's. And Yao played much better defense.

So why is Shaq better?


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## Cambridgeshire (Jan 15, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Take his entire season. In terms of production, it was better than Shaq's. And Yao played much better defense.
> 
> So why is Shaq better?


He's not. People need stop living in the past.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> 20 games of top caliber play. That was it. 20 games and you're ready to annoint him over Shaq, a guy who won the title last year, and was the runner up for the MVP of the league the year before. And I'm the one who's got logic problems?


he was runner up for the mvp two years ago. his team won the nba title last year. and somehow that makes shaq the better player right now? shaq has accomplished more as a player than yao has. shaq has had a better career. shaq's prime was better than yao has been so far.

but all of that is meaningless as to who the better current player is. current yao is better than current shaq. period.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

*Weren't the Rockets like 0-18 without TMac?* Very telling....



Minstrel said:


> Take his entire season. In terms of production, it was better than Shaq's. And Yao played much better defense.
> 
> So why is Shaq better?


Shaq makes people around him better (much more so than Yao.) Shaq is a more dominating presence than Yao. Shaq is a leader. You can't find that in the box scores. Try watching the games more often. If you want to make a run at a championship, take Shaq. If you want a Center to put up the best numbers, take Yao. Anyway Shaq's better with his touches. I think this regular season was getting 20/9.2 while shooting 60%, compared to Yao's 22.3/10.2 on 52% shooting and .3 less TPG than Shaq. As for me, I'd prefer 20 points 60% shooting than 22 points on 52%.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Take his entire season. In terms of production, it was better than Shaq's. And Yao played much better defense.
> 
> So why is Shaq better?


Impact on the game. Shaq commands more attention from the defense, thereby creating more space for others to work in. Shaq is also not just a basketball player. He is a force of nature. Watch what he does to an opponents front line during the course of the game. If they aren't all fouling out (or in foul trouble all game), they are all exhausted by the 4th quarter from having to deal w/ him all game long. Then Shaq's teams just steamroll the opponent. Its been the story of his career. Its what takes him from a top of the game right now type player, to an all-time great.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> he was runner up for the mvp two years ago. his team won the nba title last year. and somehow that makes shaq the better player right now? shaq has accomplished more as a player than yao has. shaq has had a better career. shaq's prime was better than yao has been so far.
> 
> but all of that is meaningless as to who the better current player is. current yao is better than current shaq. period.


Again, I need more than your assertion and 20 games of evidence.


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## Cambridgeshire (Jan 15, 2005)

Flash is the Future said:


> *Weren't the Rockets like 0-18 without TMac?* Very telling....
> 
> 
> Shaq makes people around him better (much more so than Yao.) Shaq is a more dominating presence than Yao. Shaq is a leader. You can't find that in the box scores. Try watching the games more often. If you want to make a run at a championship, take Shaq. If you want a Center to put up the best numbers, take Yao. Anyway Shaq's better with his touches. I think this regular season was getting 20/9.2 while shooting 60%, compared to Yao's 22.3/10.2 on 52% shooting and .3 less TPG than Shaq. As for me, I'd prefer 20 points 60% shooting than 22 points on 52%.


Meaningless words. Nothing, but what you think is the case, but clearly isn't. No single player could have helped that Rockets team win games, considering their lineup during that time. ALSO, McGrady had a similar record, when Yao was absent. Everyone knows that this Rocket team is built on the hopes of the two stars playing side by side.

Yao is a more dominating presence, now. Yao is also a leader. Yao is the last player, who will play for statistics, in more ways than one, he is a better team player than Shaq. Better with his touches? Yao is rank 9 overall in Efficiency. Shaq is rank (9+20)=29 overall in Efficiency. And in all honesty, it is clear for everyone to see that, Yao is double/triple teamed much, much more than Shaq as of late, which clearly has an effective on his shooting. FURTHERMORE, Shaq has the backup cast of players that Yao doesn't, it does takes ALOT of pressure off of him on the offensive end, where Yao was the SOLE focus on offense last season. No other Rocket player was a threat, allowing teams to concentrate on Yao.

Your arguments are either non-existent, or very weak. Signs of a person, who has yet to face the reality of things.


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## Cambridgeshire (Jan 15, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Again, I need more than your assertion and 20 games of evidence.


1. Yao improve every single segment of his career. 30 games that was simply a step in the direction he has taken since entering the NBA. You need more evidence than this, yet it is evidence in itself that Yao is continuing to improve as always.

2. Shaq begins steady decline in performance since beginning of last season. You simply overlook this.

3. This is a hypothetical choice between the two players for next season, everything is based on speculation and prediction. There is simply a higher chance of Yao continuing to improve and maintain his season-ending performance, than Shaq regaining his past domination. A pattern shows that Shaq will only decline further.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> *Weren't the Rockets like 0-18 without TMac?* Very telling....


Yes, it tells us that one player alone can't win. You may be on to something there.



> Shaq makes people around him better (much more so than Yao.) Shaq is a more dominating presence than Yao. Shaq is a leader. You can't find that in the box scores.


Mostly because none of those things have impact on creating or preventing points. They are good buzzwords when the numbers won't back up your position though.



> Try watching the games more often.


No thanks. I don't care for basketball.



> If you want to make a run at a championship, take Shaq. If you want a Center to put up the best numbers, take Yao.


Okay, so if you want the more productive and better defensive center, take Yao. Got it.



> Anyway Shaq's better with his touches. I think this regular season was getting 20/9.2 while shooting 60%, compared to Yao's 22.3/10.2 on 52% shooting and .3 less TPG than Shaq. As for me, I'd prefer 20 points 60% shooting than 22 points on 52%.


Yao Ming: 1.184 points per shot
Shaquille O'Neal: 1.172 points per shot

I'll take the center who scores more on higher efficiency.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Flash is the Future said:


> *Weren't the Rockets like 0-18 without TMac?* Very telling....
> 
> 
> Shaq makes people around him better (much more so than Yao.) Shaq is a more dominating presence than Yao. Shaq is a leader. You can't find that in the box scores. Try watching the games more often. If you want to make a run at a championship, take Shaq. If you want a Center to put up the best numbers, take Yao. Anyway Shaq's better with his touches. I think this regular season was getting 20/9.2 while shooting 60%, compared to Yao's 22.3/10.2 on 52% shooting and .3 less TPG than Shaq. As for me, I'd prefer 20 points 60% shooting than 22 points on 52%.


 it was no coincidence that yao had a poor fg% when tmac went down. he is the only player i have ever seen get double teamed off the ball for an entire game. he shot a better with tmac the year before. besides which, yao had the higher ts% at .592 as opposed to shaq's .586 meaning shaq didnt score more efficiently


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> *Weren't the Rockets like 0-18 without TMac?* Very telling....
> 
> 
> Shaq makes people around him better (much more so than Yao.) Shaq is a more dominating presence than Yao. Shaq is a leader. You can't find that in the box scores. Try watching the games more often. If you want to make a run at a championship, take Shaq. If you want a Center to put up the best numbers, take Yao. Anyway Shaq's better with his touches. I think this regular season was getting 20/9.2 while shooting 60%, compared to Yao's 22.3/10.2 on 52% shooting and .3 less TPG than Shaq. As for me, I'd prefer 20 points 60% shooting than 22 points on 52%.


This is what makes it so funny. People are basing it off a small sample size from Yao. For the season, Shaq was better than Yao...offensively and defensively. Yao started playing better ut they were still losing.


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## Cambridgeshire (Jan 15, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Impact on the game. Shaq commands more attention from the defense, thereby creating more space for others to work in. Shaq is also not just a basketball player. He is a force of nature. Watch what he does to an opponents front line during the course of the game. If they aren't all fouling out (or in foul trouble all game), they are all exhausted by the 4th quarter from having to deal w/ him all game long. Then Shaq's teams just steamroll the opponent. Its been the story of his career. Its what takes him from a top of the game right now type player, to an all-time great.


And you do not know that Yao does the same? He is also physically wearing down his opponents, and fouling them out. And, NO! Shaq does not command more attention on the defensive end now. For you to not see this is telling. They key, again, is the progress of both players' respective careers; one is on the rise, the other is on the fall.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Impact on the game. Shaq commands more attention from the defense, thereby creating more space for others to work in.


Not any more. Teams don't double him nearly as much as they once did. And Yao Ming is drawing constant double-teams. Every time he touches the ball, he's being swarmed.



> Its been the story of his career. Its what takes him from a top of the game right now type player, to an all-time great.


Yes, in his prime it was. That player doesn't exist anymore.


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## Cambridgeshire (Jan 15, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> This is what makes it so funny. People are basing it off a small sample size from Yao. For the season, Shaq was better than Yao...offensively and defensively. Yao started playing better ut they were still losing.


No, I am basing it on the respective trends of both players' performance, as time passes. Yao is on up, Shaq is on down. Yao's 30 games, as well as Shaq's performance throughout the season, SIMPLY exemplifies this.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> This is what makes it so funny. People are basing it off a small sample size from Yao.


Based on that small sample size, Yao was an all-time great center. Based on his entire season, he was better than Shaq in 2005-06. More productive, more efficient, better defensively.

But the leadership!!! omg.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Not any more. Teams don't double him nearly as much as they once did. And Yao Ming is drawing constant double-teams. Every time he touches the ball, he's being swarmed.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in his prime it was. That player doesn't exist anymore.


 Memphis rarely doubles Yao, so maybe that is my perspective. They front him and make it hard to throw the entry pass to him and he does not like to work for position. He doesn't punish man coverage like Shaq does.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Yao Ming is going dominate the NBA.

People who doubted him... will see what fans saw..

He just took a detour to get there... but I think Yao Ming will be a solid MVP candidate from now on.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

0-18 wo/ TMac?!?!?!? I knew it was bad, but that bad? Damn. Get your heads out of the sand Yao supporters. I like the guy, but 0-18 and you are claiming that he's better than Shaq? Where exactly did that show up? Not in wins and losses.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> 0-18 wo/ TMac?!?!?!? I knew it was bad, but that bad? Damn. Get your heads out of the sand Yao supporters. I like the guy, but 0-18 and you are claiming that he's better than Shaq? Where exactly did that show up? Not in wins and losses.


 0-18 was a made up number.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Pimped Out said:


> 0-18 was a made up number.


What's the real one?


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Based on that small sample size, Yao was an all-time great center. Based on his entire season, he was better than Shaq in 2005-06. More productive, more efficient, better defensively.
> 
> But the leadership!!! omg.



The numbers do not seem to back your claims as per 40, Shaq's numbers are better across the board except FT% (which accounts for thos wacky stats like ts% and pps), steals and turnovers.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> Memphis rarely doubles Yao, so maybe that is my perspective. They front him and make it hard to throw the entry pass to him and he does not like to work for position. He doesn't punish man coverage like Shaq does.


 yao early in the season, i would agree with that assessment. but late in the season he began to punish teams that wouldnt double him and you would see him put up 20 points half followed by constant/double triple teams in the second half. he also got better at learning how to deal with being fronted while injured and a lot of it was being able to catch the entry pass. yao had been known to have butter hands before that, but he did training specifically to better his hands and it worked. he also had a stronger upper body. he also got better at sealing off defenders. those things werent flukes, he worked hard to improve those aspects of his game. the things you said would have made more sense earlier in his career, but not so much anymore.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> What's the real one?


 im not sure, but its still not good, with a lot of those losses coming early on. for the first 20 or so games tmac was out, it was about 2-18 or something (that number is made up as well) but i know for the last 18 games it was 6-12. not good, but it was respectable for a team that was starting alston, wesley, bogans, and howard. not a legit scoring option or consistent shooter in the bunch. none of those guys would have sniffed the starting line up on any playoff team that i can think of.

edit: i take it back, i was counting a game where neither played. its 5-12 in the last 17 games where yao played w/out tmac.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> What's the real one?


I think it was 4-21 with Yao and without T Mac.

*edit* 6-20


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> The numbers do not seem to back your claims as per 40, Shaq's numbers are better across the board except FT% (which accounts for thos wacky stats like ts% and pps), steals and turnovers.


Why would we use per-40? Shaq's inability to play 40 minutes a game is part of his ability level.

Also, you're being a bit misleading when you say his numbers are "better across the board." Their points per 40 and rebounds per 40 are almost identical. We're literally talking about a difference of 0.1 points and 0.1 rebounds.

So, even going by per-40 (which isn't terribly valid since Shaq can't play 40 minutes), the two are even in production, Yao is more efficient and Yao plays much better defense.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Why would we use per-40? Shaq's inability to play 40 minutes a game is part of his ability level.
> 
> Also, you're being a bit misleading when you say his numbers are "better across the board." Their points per 40 and rebounds per 40 are almost identical. We're literally talking about a difference of 0.1 points and 0.1 rebounds.
> 
> So, even going by per-40 (which isn't terribly valid since Shaq can't play 40 minutes), the two are even in production, Yao is more efficient and Yao plays much better defense.


Yao has never been able to play 40 minutes either so let's not act like that is a handicap. Yao was not more effecient scoring, he shot a better % from the FT line. 

Shaq was 1st team All NBA, had more All Defense votes, won the title...IMO when the numbers are as close as you admit they really are then Shaq holds all the tie breakers.

You don't get the best at a position title given to you, you have to kill the king or at least he has to die of natural causes.


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## DemonaL (Aug 24, 2005)

and Yao possibly NEVER winning a championship.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Yao has never been able to play 40 minutes either so let's not act like that is a handicap. Yao was not more effecient scoring, he shot a better % from the FT line.


Yes, and that makes him a more efficient scorer. Every time he took a shot attempt, he created more points. That's what efficiency is. 



> Shaq was 1st team All NBA, had more All Defense votes, won the title...IMO when the numbers are as close as you admit they really are then Shaq holds all the tie breakers.


Shaquille O'Neal has been known as a lazy defender for years now. Yao Ming is known as a good defender. The fact that Shaq got two more All-Defense votes goes to show how meaningless such awards are. Shaq even got a first-team vote!

If you don't think that's simply skating by on reputation, I don't know what to tell you.



> You don't get the best at a position title given to you, you have to kill the king or at least he has to die of natural causes.


Or you have to play better than the king, as Yao Ming did in 2005-06.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

It is very tempting to pick Yao over Shaq right now, after that strong stretch we saw last season. I can see sides for both players. Shaq is still the hardest guy to set a game plan for. Teams have been a little slow in releasing the hard double strategy on him. This has been a *huge benefit* to the Heat. Because once teams hard double Shaq, like they frequently do, he simply has the passing skills to pick them apart. The open looks, the penetration, the 3's, it is a huge weapon. The consequence of not doubling Shaq in the past has been Shaq scoring easily, and putting bigs in foul trouble. 

I think Yao will definitely establish himself as the game's best center this season, while Shaq will be left alone a lot more, but if he continues to demand such attention, the choice will be difficult.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> I think it was 4-21 with Yao and without T Mac.
> 
> *edit* 6-20


Interesting numbers, and the sad thing is this washed up Shaq would probably win more with that team


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

I admit my bias because I think Yao/T Mac goes down in history much the same as Run TMC, the Three J's, and Backcourt 2000.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

HB said:


> Interesting numbers, and the sad thing is this washed up Shaq would probably win more with that team


i don't think shaq wins many games with rafer alston, david wesley, keith bogans/ryan bowen, and juwan howard starting alongside him.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Why do teams always have to come into play? The better player is the more skilled one.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

> Shaq rarely gets enough time to play on the court anymore, not with all the crazy calls.


....And poor conditioning.


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

_Dre_ said:


> Why do teams always have to come into play? The better player is the more skilled one.



Jonathon Bender had mad skills, and hoop is a team game. If you are one of the main ingredients to a successful team, then you must be a good team basketball player.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Why do teams always have to come into play? The better player is the more skilled one.


If skill was the sole determinant on who's the better player Shaq would come in in the bottom quarter of the NBA. Skill is nice. *Impact* on the game is what sets your value as a player.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> If skill was the sole determinant on who's the better player Shaq would come in in the bottom quarter of the NBA. Skill is nice. *Impact* on the game is what sets your value as a player.


I think he meant ability when he said skill. Just my guess.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Yao Ming is better than Shaquille O'Neal.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> i don't think shaq wins many games with rafer alston, david wesley, keith bogans/ryan bowen, and juwan howard starting alongside him.


I beg to differ. Considering a lot of 'scrubs' have got pretty nice pay checks playing next to the big man, I wouldnt be surprised if he made those guys look good


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> If skill was the sole determinant on who's the better player Shaq would come in in the bottom quarter of the NBA. Skill is nice. *Impact* on the game is what sets your value as a player.


 
....That's a lie. He's still probably the most skilled Center in the league as he gets older. But anyways, like Minstrel said, I was implying Impact was in that skill discussion or whatever. Maybe I should have termed it differently, but that's what I was saying. All this "switch Yao onto the Heat and vice versa" stuff has nothing to do with whether Shaq or Yao is the better player.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> ....That's a lie. He's still probably the most skilled Center in the league as he gets older. But anyways, like Minstrel said, I was implying Impact was in that skill discussion or whatever. Maybe I should have termed it differently, but that's what I was saying. All this "switch Yao onto the Heat and vice versa" stuff has nothing to do with whether Shaq or Yao is the better player.


Yes, I'm lying to you. I'm a terrible person.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Yes, I'm lying to you. I'm a terrible person.


 d'uh


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## Dynamic™ (Jun 28, 2006)

At some points, Shaq can be better, but overall, Yao takes the lead. Not only that Yao is taller, he has a better chance of blocking. Great for defense, wonderful for offense, no doubt about it, Yao is better.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

HB said:


> I beg to differ. Considering a lot of 'scrubs' have got pretty nice pay checks playing next to the big man, I wouldnt be surprised if he made those guys look good


Like whom?


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

MiamiHeat03 said:


> I dont know wasnt it Dallas plan to triple and double team Shaq everytime he touched the ball in games 1 and 2 in the NBA Finals. I dont think Yao would have would have been triple or double team like Shaq was in the Finals.


You obviously didn't watch any Rockets-Mavs games last season. Yao was double and triple teamed. There's a Jerry Stackhouse quote in MRC's sig that I like: "Every team has to focus on him more than any other center in the NBA, even Shaq."

Yao averaged 23 ppg in three games against the Mavs last season. Shaq averaged 13 ppg in the Finals.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Hakeem said:


> You obviously didn't watch any Rockets-Mavs games last season. Yao was double and triple teamed. There's a Jerry Stackhouse quote in MRC's sig that I like: "Every team has to focus on him more than any other center in the NBA, even Shaq."
> 
> Yao averaged 23 ppg in three games against the Mavs last season. Shaq averaged 13 ppg in the Finals.


MAVS Front Court defense during the finals > Mavs Front Court defense in the season you are talking about.


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## xcellence (Apr 17, 2006)

HB said:


> I beg to differ. Considering a lot of 'scrubs' have got pretty nice pay checks playing next to the big man, I wouldnt be surprised if he made those guys look good


 Shaq has NEVER been on a team as bad as that Houston team riddled by injuries was last year. No, as nice as it sounds to say over and over again, it wasn't because he simply magically "made his teammates better"...but rather because he flat out played on some pretty talanted teams. At this point in his career, shaq couldn't carry a team like Houston by himself throughout the course of a season...and I can't help but laugh when someone suggested that he would have taken them to the WCF's.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

dam i want to say Yao is better and he will prob have better numbers 
but i dunno Shaq is so important to team success
i'd still want him more, we'll just have to see next season
plus the best center will be Amare anyway :biggrin:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Hakeem said:


> You obviously didn't watch any Rockets-Mavs games last season. Yao was double and triple teamed. There's a Jerry Stackhouse quote in MRC's sig that I like: "Every team has to focus on him more than any other center in the NBA, even Shaq."
> 
> Yao averaged 23 ppg in three games against the Mavs last season. Shaq averaged 13 ppg in the Finals.


But the previous season, that Houston team lost by what 40 or so points to that Dallas team, whilst the Heat are the reigning champions


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

HB said:


> But the previous season, that Houston team lost by what 40 or so points to that Dallas team, whilst the Heat are the reigning champions


True, and Tim Duncan didn't make the NBA Finals while Udonis Haslem is a reigning champion. Therefore, Haslem is clearly better than Duncan.

Good logic.


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> True, and Tim Duncan didn't make the NBA Finals while Udonis Haslem is a reigning champion. Therefore, Haslem is clearly better than Duncan.
> 
> Good logic.


Good interpretation of what people mean, yeah.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> True, and Tim Duncan didn't make the NBA Finals while Udonis Haslem is a reigning champion. Therefore, Haslem is clearly better than Duncan.
> 
> Good logic.


No mention in there that it was the reason why Shaq was better than Yao


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

...


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

ScottVdub said:


> Good interpretation of what people mean, yeah.


"People" mean that team success defines individual ability, otherwise they wouldn't keep comparing the Heat and Rockets, instead of comparing the actual ability of Shaq and Yao.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> "People" mean that team success defines individual ability, otherwise they wouldn't keep comparing the Heat and Rockets, instead of comparing the actual ability of Shaq and Yao.


it seems that to you, stats are all that define a player


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## Nightfly (Sep 24, 2002)

If you were to put Yao on to the Heat in Shaq's place, I'm not so sure the Heat would have won the title.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

HB said:


> it seems that to you, stats are all that define a player


On-court performance is all that defines a player.

Not the talent of his teammates.


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## xcellence (Apr 17, 2006)

Nightfly said:


> If you were to put Yao on to the Heat in Shaq's place, I'm not so sure the Heat would have won the title.


 I'm not understanding why everyone thinks this...does D-Wade suddenly cease to exist in all these hypothetical Shaq/Yao swap scenarios...am I the only person that remembers the Finals?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Nightfly said:


> If you were to put Yao on to the Heat in Shaq's place, I'm not so sure the Heat would have won the title.


Better production and better defense from the center position would have worsened their chances? Why?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> On-court performance is all that defines a player.
> 
> Not the talent of his teammates.


And Shaq is clearly a better player than Yao Ming.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

HB said:


> And Shaq is clearly a better player than Yao Ming.


Well, you've done nothing to substantiate that, but you're entitled to your opinion.

We'll have to agree to disagree.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Well, you've done nothing to substantiate that, but you're entitled to your opinion.
> 
> We'll have to agree to disagree.


Because I think most of it has already been touched on. Right of the bat, Shaq has a higher bball IQ than Yao. He uses his teammates to beat the opposition. Given he plays with a fantastic guard, BUT Yao also plays with an equally talented guard also. Shaq also plays primarily in the post, which makes it easier for him to get opposing big men into foul trouble. All those nice jumpers that Yao can make dont necessarily make him a better offensive option than Shaq. Once again 20 games doesnt make a player.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Nightfly said:


> If you were to put Yao on to the Heat in Shaq's place, I'm not so sure the Heat would have won the title.


 and if you put shaq on the rockets last season, i see him faking injuries to avoid by embarrassed by teams like the suns that had off the ball double teams on yao.

i dont see the rockets going 6-20 without tmac last year if shaq is on the team. i dont see shaq playing 26 games without tmac.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

HB said:


> Right of the bat, Shaq has a higher bball IQ than Yao. He uses his teammates to beat the opposition.


How so? What's the evidence for this?



> Shaq also plays primarily in the post, which makes it easier for him to get opposing big men into foul trouble.


Yao also plays primarily in the post. For a long time, the Rockets failed to make maximal use of Yao because their only two players good at feeding the post (McGrady and Sura) were injured and not playing.



> Once again 20 games doesnt make a player.


Yao was more productive than Shaq using the full season. And played better defense.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Nightfly said:


> If you were to put Yao on to the Heat in Shaq's place, I'm not so sure the Heat would have won the title.


if you replayed the season with shaq in shaq's place, i'm not so sure the heat would win the title again, so what's your point?


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

*...*



Minstrel said:


> ...


Think of the time you could have saved if all your responses to HB were three dots. And he would still throw out insightful, relevant facts like those presented below.

_Shaq just understands the game better.

Sadly Shaq rarely gets enough time to play on the court anymore, not with all the crazy calls.

But the previous season, that Houston team lost by what 40 or so points to that Dallas team, whilst the Heat are the reigning champions.

Shaq is clearly a better player than Yao Ming.

Because I think most of it has already been touched on.

Considering a lot of 'scrubs' have got pretty nice pay checks playing next to the big man, I wouldnt be surprised if he made those guys look good._ No scrub names given.


:cheers:


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

23AJ said:


> MAVS Front Court defense during the finals > Mavs Front Court defense in the season you are talking about.


The season I am talking about is the one in which the Mavs made the Finals.


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

Re: Yao Ming is better than Shaquille O'Neal.

yeah,and oj simpson is innocent too


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

xcellence said:


> Shaq has NEVER been on a team as bad as that Houston team riddled by injuries was last year. No, as nice as it sounds to say over and over again, it wasn't because he simply magically "made his teammates better"...but rather because he flat out played on some pretty talanted teams. At this point in his career, shaq couldn't carry a team like Houston by himself throughout the course of a season...and I can't help but laugh when someone suggested that he would have taken them to the WCF's.


No one is expecting Yao to take that team to the finals but he could have kept them respectable. Either Yao is not as good as you guys are saying or Tracy McGrady is the greatest player ever. I mean they were literally the worse team in the league without Tracy McGrady and a 60 win team with him.

All he had to do was carry them for 25 games, not an entire season.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> No one is expecting Yao to take that team to the finals but he could have kept them respectable. Either Yao is not as good as you guys are saying or Tracy McGrady is the greatest player ever. I mean they were literally the worse team in the league without Tracy McGrady and a 60 win team with him.
> 
> All he had to do was carry them for 25 games, not an entire season.


 "Literally" is the wrong word to use. Sura was out, Wesley and Howard had thoroughly declined... this is a team built with players who feed off open looks. McGrady and Yao together create that, Yao alone can only do so much when no perimeter player can knock down a shot or create their own. Jeff Van Gundy's stagnant offense doesn't help.

Shaq's player winning percentage was .692, compared to .843 for Yao (highest in the league I believe). So yeah, Yao WAS the 2006 Rockets.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> No one is expecting Yao to take that team to the finals but he could have kept them respectable. Either Yao is not as good as you guys are saying or Tracy McGrady is the greatest player ever. I mean they were literally the worse team in the league without Tracy McGrady and a 60 win team with him.
> 
> All he had to do was carry them for 25 games, not an entire season.


In my opinion that type of argument really isn't fair to Yao or any other player in the league. I think last year's Rockets team was just an ugly situation due to the inconsistency caused by injuries of the team's best two players and issues of a team built team around the skills of Yao and McGrady. The reality of the situation is neither Yao is that bad nor McGrady that good, as there was a whole host of other factors inlvoved in last years terrible season.


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## Cambridgeshire (Jan 15, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> No one is expecting Yao to take that team to the finals but he could have kept them respectable. Either Yao is not as good as you guys are saying or Tracy McGrady is the greatest player ever. I mean they were literally the worse team in the league without Tracy McGrady and a 60 win team with him.
> 
> All he had to do was carry them for 25 games, not an entire season.


They are a 60-win team with McGrady AND Yao. It was made clear from the start for the Rocketst o be succesful, both players had to be in play. The Rockets also struggled tremendously, when McGrady was playing without Yao.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

GUYS, the reason why the Heat would not have won the championship with Yao is because of the fact that Yao is the more efficient scorer and would have demanded more touches thus taking the ball away from DWade. 

Everyone like my logic? The way this thread is going, I'm not far off.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: ...*



Mr. Predictable said:


> Think of the time you could have saved if all your responses to HB were three dots. And he would still throw out insightful, relevant facts like those presented below.
> 
> _Shaq just understands the game better.
> 
> ...


At the end of the day, the two of them will be judged by their team success. But of course some on here will bring up the stats, which I have no doubt that Yao will definitely surpass Shaq in. But whilst Rockets/Mcgrady fans are getting all giddy by a 20 game performance, I'll go with the safe choice, the guy that happened to win a championship last year.

Now if Tmac is as healthy as he says he is, then Yao and him shouldnt have any problems getting the Rockets to the finals


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: ...*



HB said:


> Now if Tmac is as healthy as he says he is, then Yao and him shouldnt have any problems getting the Rockets to the finals


I honestly can't see McGrady and Yao leading the Rockets to a championship. I remember when McGrady was traded I felt he and Yao would never lead the Rockets to a championship and they've done nothing to show me otherwise.


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## kochamkinie (Jan 23, 2006)

Cambridgeshire said:


> They are a 60-win team with McGrady AND Yao. It was made clear from the start for the Rocketst o be succesful, both players had to be in play. The Rockets also struggled tremendously, when McGrady was playing without Yao.





HB said:


> Now if Tmac is as healthy as he says he is, then Yao and him shouldnt have any problems getting the Rockets to the finals


No they aren't a 60-win team. And no, they will not get to the finals. They indeed have two great, perhaps TOP10 players. Unfortunately for them they also had (last season) thw worst supporting cast in the whole NBA. You need something more than two great players to reach the finals and/or win 60 games in a season. Believe me, Shaq + Wade would not be that succesful if they had to play with Juwan Howard, David Wesley, Rafer Alston, Stromile Swift and basically no bench. Two guys won't beat Pistons, Mavericks, Spurs, Suns and so on.

This season it looks a bit better because of Battier, but not that better. 40-50 wins is a max IMHO.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: ...*



ralaw said:


> I honestly can't see McGrady and Yao leading the Rockets to a championship. I remember when McGrady was traded I felt he and Yao would never lead the Rockets to a championship and they've done nothing to show me otherwise.


I felt the same way and still do. They will be a great story and generate a lot of hype but the problem that trading for McGrady produced was having to bring on Juwan Howard. Since the Rockets are not big spenders, they are essentially wasting a salary slot and will not have enough quality depth. To win and be under the luxury tax requires you to have a player on a rookie deal performing at a high level and that is difficult to find especially when you trade away lottery picks.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Hakeem said:


> You obviously didn't watch any Rockets-Mavs games last season. Yao was double and triple teamed. There's a Jerry Stackhouse quote in MRC's sig that I like: "Every team has to focus on him more than any other center in the NBA, even Shaq."
> 
> Yao averaged 23 ppg in three games against the Mavs last season. Shaq averaged 13 ppg in the Finals.


And where'd that get Jerry Stackhouse? There's also a Josh Howard quote where he says something along the lines of Wade can't shoot.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

I think HB got to the bottom of this Minstrel. You only judge a player by his stats, and not the intangibles he contributes, and that philosophy will ultimately lead to failure (for a GM.) The most notable GM I can think of that values a player's stats too highly is Isiah Thomas.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> I think HB got to the bottom of this Minstrel. You only judge a player by his stats, and not the intangibles he contributes


Intangibles are a good refuge to resort to when there's no evidence for your opinion. Unproveable things always are.



> and that philosophy will ultimately lead to failure (for a GM.) The most notable GM I can think of that values a player's stats too highly is Isiah Thomas.


Cool non-sequitur.

Incidentally, this popular opinion that GMs disdain stats and make multi-million dollar decisions based on "intangibles" that they can "feel" is pretty amusing. In all professional sports, teams have proprietary and advanced performance metrics to rate players and evaluate them. It's fun for fans to talk about how Player A "out-hearts" Player B and Player C "out-clutches" Player D, but GMs aren't just having bar room debates. They're handling huge sums of money and their livelihoods ride on results. If you think *I* look at things too analytically, imagine what executives (who went to the same business schools as their coporate bretheren who run mathematical models on everything) with far more resources do.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> Intangibles are a good refuge to resort to when there's no evidence for your opinion. Unproveable things always are.


Watch the games. Seeing is believing. Oh and I think that Rockets team would've been better with Shaq. Shaq has made guys like Damon Jones go from scrubs to studs when they play with him. That's the difference between Shaq and Yao. Yao doesn't do that, and because of that his team doesn't win as much as it could.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> Watch the games.


No thanks. I don't care for basketball.



> Oh and I think that Rockets team would've been better with Shaq. Shaq has made guys like Damon Jones go from scrubs to studs when they play with him.


Damon Jones was approximately as good the year before with Milwaukee as he was with Miami. He just got fewer minutes in Milwaukee, as Milwaukee had a better shooter in Redd while Miami needed his perimeter shooting more, so played him more.



> That's the difference between Shaq and Yao. Yao doesn't do that, and because of that his team doesn't win as much as it could.


It's also an imaginary difference. So it probably leads to more imaginary wins for Shaq.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> What matters is if Yao can be better than Shaq in his prime.


Yes this is the true test.

Yao was a monster post all-star though. Lets see if he can continue that level of play.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: ...*



HB said:


> At the end of the day, the two of them will be judged by their team success. But of course some on here will bring up the stats, which I have no doubt that Yao will definitely surpass Shaq in. But whilst Rockets/Mcgrady fans are getting all giddy by a 20 game performance, I'll go with the safe choice, the guy that happened to win a championship last year.


Why go with Shaq then? Why not Antoine Walker? 



Flash is the Future said:


> And where'd that get Jerry Stackhouse? There's also a Josh Howard quote where he says something along the lines of Wade can't shoot.


Wade's eFG% on his jumpshots was 39.3% last year. Even Rafer Alston shot jumpers better at 41.8%. Then compare that with 54% for Jason Terry, a shooter Howard sees every day.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

*Re: ...*



MemphisX said:


> To win and be under the luxury tax requires you to have a player on a rookie deal performing at a high level and that is difficult to find especially when you trade away lottery picks.



Rudy Gay?

oh nevermind...


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

Flash is the Future said:


> Watch the games. Seeing is believing. Oh and I think that Rockets team would've been better with Shaq. Shaq has made guys like Damon Jones go from scrubs to studs when they play with him. That's the difference between Shaq and Yao. Yao doesn't do that, and because of that his team doesn't win as much as it could.


I don't know why i am responding to this idle speculation, especially since Minstrel has it covered. However, you are making huge assumptions without actually supporting them with valid evidence. You say that the Rockets team would have been better with Shaq. Not only is this statement absolutely meaningless without empirical evidence or even some type of mathematical analysis, but I disagree with it entirely. Shaq makes players better by drawing double/triple teams then dishing it out for the three-point shot. Perhaps I have to ask you to "watch the games." Last season, I saw 79 Rockets games on NBA League Pass. Especially after the All-Star Break, Yao was being double or triple teamed by most NBA teams. Like any competent center, he passed it out for a un-contested three. However, due to the utter lack of talent or even adequate shooters on the team, those perimeter shots did not fall. It became frustrating to see brick after brick, but that was the reality. Unless you are to blame the inconsistent shooting on Yao, I don't see your standpoint whatsoever. Damon Jones was on a hot streak in Miami and he was also given the opportunity to shoot. I don't see why an open three point shot in Miami is any different from an open three point shot in Houston. (Unless you factor in humidity and altitude...) I expect your next reply to be incoherent and without any logical merit. Type away.


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## Mugatu (Sep 14, 2006)

I think it's pretty clear that Yao has become the NBA's best center.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Incidentally, this popular opinion that GMs disdain stats and make multi-million dollar decisions based on "intangibles" that they can "feel" is pretty amusing. In all professional sports, teams have proprietary and advanced performance metrics to rate players and evaluate them. It's fun for fans to talk about how Player A "out-hearts" Player B and Player C "out-clutches" Player D, but GMs aren't just having bar room debates. They're handling huge sums of money and their livelihoods ride on results. If you think *I* look at things too analytically, imagine what executives (who went to the same business schools as their coporate bretheren who run mathematical models on everything) with far more resources do.


Yes, there are dumb GMs that primarily look at stats, and smart GMs that understand that the only true way to evaluate a player (and to know whether they will fit on their team) is to watch them in action and come to understand how they function as a part of the whole, and that's a quality assessment, not a quantity one.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Tim Duncan plays better at center than Yao. One legged Amare is better also.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Yes, there are dumb GMs that primarily look at stats, and smart GMs that understand that the only true way to evaluate a player (and to know whether they will fit on their team) is to watch them in action and come to understand how they function as a part of the whole, and that's a quality assessment, not a quantity one.


Sorry, all teams have advanced and proprietary models and measures to rate players. Obviously they also employ scouts to get observational data, but you're kidding yourself if you think stats are for "dumb GMs." Successful executives in every venue place a high importance on both mathematical models as well as "human" or "observational" data.

In sports, like economics, there are so many variables and outside factors at play during every interaction that pure observation is going to end up way off track. The only way to have even a reasonable chance of tracking all those variables and filtering them out is to use computers and sophisticated math.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Sorry, all teams have advanced and proprietary models and measures to rate players. Obviously they also employ scouts to get observational data, but you're kidding yourself if you think stats are for "dumb GMs." Successful executives in every venue place a high importance on both mathematical models as well as "human" or "observational" data.
> 
> In sports, like economics, there are so many variables and outside factors at play during every interaction that pure observation is going to end up way off track. The only way to have even a reasonable chance of tracking all those variables and filtering them out is to use computers and sophisticated math.


The things they track are significantly more sophisticated than ppg. WHich is approximately the sophistication level of what you all are using here to say that Yao Ming (who 'led' his team to a 5-21 record wo/ TMac) is better than Shaq.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> The things they track are significantly more sophisticated than ppg. WHich is approximately the sophistication level of what you all are using here to say that Yao Ming (who 'led' his team to a 5-21 record wo/ TMac) is better than Shaq.


I've been using the most sophisticated stats publicly avaliable, like PER and TS%. I quite agree that teams, who have FAR more resources, use much more advanced metrics.

Suffice it to say, no GM in history, even the dumbest, is going to make evaluations like this: Shaq is better because he led the Heat to a championship while Yao led the Rockets to a 5-21 record without his only other help.

Even logic-impaired GMs are capable of understanding that the quality of the teammates around the player make a big difference in team success.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> I've been using the most sophisticated stats publicly avaliable, like PER and TS%. I quite agree that teams, who have FAR more resources, use much more advanced metrics.
> 
> Suffice it to say, no GM in history, even the dumbest, is going to make evaluations like this: Shaq is better because he led the Heat to a championship while Yao led the Rockets to a 5-21 record without his only other help.
> 
> Even logic-impaired GMs are capable of understanding that the quality of the teammates around the player make a big difference in team success.


No way a Shaq team goes 5-21. No way in hell. Even w/ all 12th men. You Yao fans (and as a separate but related issue Tmac fans) like to make all kinds of excuses. This player... that player... no good teammates.... bad coaching.... no one can hit a shot.... But the proof is in the pudding. 5-21. No playoffs. And only 20-30 games of high quality play. Now, it doesn't surprise me in the least that this is enough for the children that post here to annoint him the top center, but its still completely and totally absurd.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> No way a Shaq team goes 5-21. No way in hell. Even w/ all 12th men. You Yao fans (and as a separate but related issue Tmac fans) like to make all kinds of excuses. This player... that player... no good teammates.... bad coaching.... no one can hit a shot.... But the proof is in the pudding. 5-21. No playoffs. And only 20-30 games of high quality play. Now, it doesn't surprise me in the least that this is enough for the children that post here to annoint him the top center, but its still completely and totally absurd.


Actually the truth is: 



SeaNet said:


> This player *(injured)*... that player *(injured)*... no good teammates.... bad coaching.... no one can hit a shot


and the resultant is:



SeaNet said:


> *34-48 * . No playoffs


Which considering the situation, really isn't that bad of a season.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> No way a Shaq team goes 5-21. No way in hell. Even w/ all 12th men.


Even all by himself! Even if he were in a wheelchair! Even if his team was outscored in every game! This is Shaq! Star of _Kazaam!_

He would "heart" out at least 7 wins.

I think we told the "kids."


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> And only 20-30 games of high quality play.


i love this part of the arguement. for 20-30 games, yao was arguably the best player in the league(and definitely top 5). for the other games, yao played at a similar level to shaq.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Even all by himself! Even if he were in a wheelchair! Even if his team was outscored in every game! This is Shaq! Star of _Kazaam!_
> 
> He would "heart" out at least 7 wins.
> 
> I think we told the "kids."


Oh, btw/ does PER tell you how well the ball moves when a particular player is in the game? Does TS (or whatever it is) tell you how effectively someone passes out of the double team?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> i love this part of the arguement. for 20-30 games, yao was arguably the best player in the league(and definitely top 5). for the other games, yao played at a similar level to shaq.


Following the very sophisticated statistical measurements of ppg and rpg, of course. Hey, let's all not forget how good Eddie Curry's FG% is. He must be one of the best low post players in the league.


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

Shaq is on the decline, while Yao is going up.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Oh, btw/ does PER tell you how well the ball moves when a particular player is in the game? Does TS (or whatever it is) tell you how effectively someone passes out of the double team?


No. Nobody has suggested that statistics tell you everything. Numbers also don't tell you, very accurately, how well players play defense.

Of course, considering that most NBA observers consider Yao to be a very good passer for his position, and the fact that Yao now draws as much double-teaming as Shaq (and even triple-teams when McGrady is out), there's no reason to believe that these factors are in Shaq's favour or overwhelm all the other factors in Yao's favour.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Following the very sophisticated statistical measurements of ppg and rpg, of course. Hey, let's all not forget how good Eddie Curry's FG% is. He must be one of the best low post players in the league.


I don't know about you, but I DO consider Curry to be one of the better post players in the game. He can't do anything else worth **** though.


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

I just read the thread title and had to laugh. Anyone who thinks Yao is better than Shaq is funny. Sure, Shaq is on the decline nobody would deny that. But, Yao in his prime whenever that may be, wont even come close to what Shaq has done. And for everyone who throws numbers out there how Yao put up like 2ppg and 1rpg more[holy ****!] what does that prove? Sure, Tmac was injured a lot of the year and Yao was injured too but so what? Shaq helped them to the championship. Maybe when Yao wins 4 rings [maybe more to come for Shaq too] we can compare him to Shaq. But, call me crazy, I think Shaq and many other players would take averaging a few less points and rebounds in return for a title. *EDIT: Stay on topic*


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Yao being as good a passer or a better passer than Shaq (even in decline) is absolutely untrue


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

beamer05 said:


> But, Yao in his prime whenever that may be, wont even come close to what Shaq has done. Maybe when Yao wins 4 rings [maybe more to come for Shaq too] we can compare him to Shaq.


this thread is not discussing their careers. it is very obvious at this point that shaq has had a better career than yao and yao has a lot to do to even put himself in the discussion with shaq's career. but at current value, yao is better than shaq. yao now is better than shaq now. careers are irrelevant.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

beamer05 said:


> But, call me crazy, I think Shaq and many other players would take averaging a few less points and rebounds in return for a title.


It's entirely possible that many players would take averaging slightly less production in order to get much better teammates.

That was a pretty lengthy post considering you made no points about Shaq's current ability versus Yao Ming's current ability. You ably proved that the Heat have more good players than the Rockets, though.

*EDIT: Stay on topic*


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## Heatfan999 (Jul 10, 2006)

To all who thinks that Shaq wouldnt had sucess on Rockets I say only one thing: Miami Heat without Shaq were 11-10 and with him 41-20 Shaq simply makes teamets better not only with his in court presence but his off court leadership. Antoine Walker and Posey were saying that merly playing with multi champion like Shaq give them so much belive in there abilites that they were not afride to take matters in there hands because even if they fail they sense that Shaq behind they back would correct this mistakes. His presence is enormous. Ainge wance said having that kind a player like Shaq on your team gives you confidence that not matter what will happen you will win. Yao dont brings this to the table and until he wins at least 1 championshio he will not have this. Until then Shaq is number one in my book.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Heatfan999 said:
 

> To all who thinks that Shaq wouldnt had sucess on Rockets I say only one thing: Miami Heat without Shaq were 11-10 and with him 41-20 Shaq simply makes teamets better not only with his in court presence but his off court leadership. Antoine Walker and Posey were saying that merly playing with multi champion like Shaq give them so much belive in there abilites that they were not afride to take matters in there hands because even if they fail they sense that Shaq behind they back would correct this mistakes. His presence is enormous. Ainge wance said having that kind a player like Shaq on your team gives you confidence that not matter what will happen you will win. Yao dont brings this to the table and until he wins at least 1 championshio he will not have this. Until then Shaq is number one in my book.


 funny, in the SG thread, heat fans were claiming the wade was the leader off and on the court for the heat last year, not shaq. as for walker and posey, those guys were better than anyone yao played with in those 26 games without tmac. and how many of those games were without wade, anyways?

mcgrady's (when he played) rockets, were 3-7 without yao. insert yao into that line up and the mcgrady/yao rockets are 21-10. the rockets without yao werent much better than the rockets without mcgrady, especially at the end of the season when yao realized what it meant to have to carry an entire team on his back. yao was the difference between a .300 team and a .677 team. put that in your pipe and smoke it.


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

Please stop with the personal attacks. I am editing this now before it gets further out of hand. Let's keep it basketball.

~ShuHanGuanYu


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## Heatfan999 (Jul 10, 2006)

Shaq without Wade were 6-1 prety good In my book. Shaq even in his old self still can bring you to ECF or Finals while Yao dont...


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

beamer05 said:


> Please stop with the personal attacks. I am editing this now before it gets further out of hand. Let's keep it basketball.
> 
> ~ShuHanGuanYu


*EDIT: Stay on topic*



...basketball.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

bronx43 said:


> *EDIT: Stay on topic*
> 
> 
> 
> ...basketball.


The topic is... i'm not sure anymore.

Typing in white is quite clever right? - Premier


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

bronx43 said:


> The topic is... i'm not sure anymore.
> 
> Typing in white is quite clever right? - Premier


The topic should be why Yao Ming is better than Shaq. :angel:


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

ofcourse right now yao ming is better than shaq, i'm not so sure he has the same on court impact, but basketball wise he is better than shaq, shaq is a couple seasons away from retiring, Yao is about to enter his prime, i hope Yao is better than shaq at this point in their careers. I think futurevixen said it the best that the question is whether yao will be better than shaq was in his prime


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

bronx43 said:


> The topic is... i'm not sure anymore.
> 
> Typing in white is quite clever right? - Premier


Mods are here to keep your attitudes in check. Mods are here to keep the boards in check. If mods weren't here, imagine how many F bombs and those other bombs people will be dropping. Imagine how many flame and personal attack wars there will be.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> No way a Shaq team goes 5-21. No way in hell. Even w/ all 12th men. You Yao fans (and as a separate but related issue Tmac fans) like to make all kinds of excuses. This player... that player... no good teammates.... bad coaching.... no one can hit a shot.... But the proof is in the pudding. 5-21. No playoffs. And only 20-30 games of high quality play. Now, it doesn't surprise me in the least that this is enough for the children that post here to annoint him the top center, but its still completely and totally absurd.


I need tonights lottery numbers, can you look in that crystal ball of yours and tell me what they would be?


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## Hiro! (Sep 10, 2006)

bronx43 said:


> The topic is... i'm not sure anymore.
> 
> Typing in white is quite clever, right? - Premier


 :whatever:


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

MAybe Yao will have the better numbers this year, but how would that make him 'better' than Shaq? Shaq's impact on the game is so much bigger than Yao's. You could even see it in the finals when the Mavs decided to double and triple Shaq and let D. Wade do whatever he wanted. So, yes, Yao may put up a few more points and rebounds per game but how does that make him better? Shaq's skills are obviously declining and Yao is getting better.. but even if Yao puts up crazy numbers these next few years he wont be able to match what Shaq has done. So, if someone is going to base Yao being better than Shaq on numbers then just look at what Shaq has done and it wont even be a competition. Yao could only pray to emulate what Shaq has done in his career.


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Its going to take more than 20 quality games in a row from Yao (all we've seen to this point) and either a first round exit or missing the playoffs entirely for me conclude that Yao is better than Shaq. 'matt!' can make fun of it all he wants, but there's alot more to impact on the game that tangible statistics. Shaq wears down the other team w/ his sheer physicality in a way that Yao has only dreamt of to this point. You guys can discount that all you want, of course, but its true.


You may have missed him in Japan and how he was a one man team that dominated. He was double and tripled but he still got his. The China guards couldnt shoot or be effective. Yao was the leading scorer by 2+ points if i remember correclty.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

beamer05 said:


> MAybe Yao will have the better numbers this year, but how would that make him 'better' than Shaq? Shaq's impact on the game is so much bigger than Yao's. You could even see it in the finals when the Mavs decided to double and triple Shaq and let D.


alll season, yao was going up against double teams. some teams even chose to double team him off the ball. and when tmac was out, he saw triple teams.

don't pretend shaq got more attention than yao from the other teams. that just proves that you didn't watch yao play.


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

I think Yao passed Shaq last year. If it wasn't obvious then, it will be in this upcoming season.


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

Is yao better than Duncan too?


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

ScottVdub said:


> Is yao better than Duncan too?


No.


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## MVP™ (Jun 11, 2006)

Shady* said:


> No.


Nope, Duncan is quite far more aggressive than Yao.


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## lilrip133 (Dec 25, 2005)

even though i hate yao and love shaq, he will be better than shaq this season. he was already getting extremely close last season and this season his skill set will be better, but at the same time, because of what shaq's done in his career, he still will bring just as much impact to the game as yao will. regardless what happens, shaq will still be the strongest man in the league and still has a solid fundamental game. he'll still get his, but his minutes are gonna drop and he's more fragile than he used to be. so in games when shaq does play, he may not be as good, but he'll still have as much impact as yao.

and yao may never be as good as tim duncan, even when duncan's career is finally declining.


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## bbasok (Oct 30, 2005)

Video contained inappropriate words.


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

Teams still have to plan their defense around Shaq. Also, Shaq has more experience and is probably the better leader. For the next season atleast I would rather have Shaq on my team.


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

lilrip133 said:


> and yao may never be as good as tim duncan, even when duncan's career is finally declining.


 Duncan is already on the decline while Yao is just getting better everyday. In a couple years Yao will be far better than Duncan.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

Nice video. NBA *dont mask, let the filter do its work* "staring" Yao Ming... I can make such a compliation with Jordan and make him look like Damon Jones.


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## LebronJamesownsyou (Sep 11, 2006)

shaq is the better player than yao he's just a bit injured last year he's still better than yao.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Fray said:


> Duncan is already on the decline while Yao is just getting better everyday. In a couple years Yao will be far better than Duncan.


Tim Duncan is one of the best big men to ever step on a basketball court, and in an injured state led his team to the best or 2nd best record in the league, and nearly got them past Dallas w/ an unbelieveable offensive show.

Yao has yet to lead a team anywhere other than a first round exit and several years of not even making the playoffs. Get some perspective, please. Thanks.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

> Yao has yet to lead a team anywhere other than a first round exit


TWO years ago. Compare the Yao from two years ago to the Yao we saw this season, and it's like night and day.

Yao + McGrady is the best 1-2 punch in the NBA, no question.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

unluckyseventeen said:


> TWO years ago. Compare the Yao from two years ago to the Yao we saw this season, and it's like night and day.
> 
> Yao + McGrady is the best 1-2 punch in the NBA, no question.


Please point to their post-season accomplishments to provide a basis for your statement. Thanks. Or am I supposed to believe that this year its just all going to come together for them? Like I was supposed to believe last year. And like many wanted me to believe 2 years ago. Let's see them accomplish something before we annoit them.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Please point to their post-season accomplishments to provide a basis for your statement. Thanks. Or am I supposed to believe that this year its just all going to come together for them?


No. What you're supposed to believe is that McGrady and Yao, like other great one-two punches (Stockton/Malone, Jordan/Pippen, Shaq/Kobe, etc), need a good supporting cast to come together around them, in order to have post-season success.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> No. What you're supposed to believe is that McGrady and Yao, like other great one-two punches (Stockton/Malone, Jordan/Pippen, Shaq/Kobe, etc), need a good supporting cast to come together around them, in order to have post-season success.


How foolish of me to think that if they were worthy of being called the best 1-2 punch in the league, that they would have managed to lead a team to a playoff series victory once in one of their careers. Oh, yeah, that's right they're surrounded by CBA level players, and nothing is ever their fault.


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## FirstRocket (Mar 10, 2005)

Huh? How long have McGrady and Yao played together? Two years, provided you considered last season where they seldom played together due to injuries. In the first season together, Rockets won 51 games and lost out to Mavericks in 7 games in the playoff. 

Yep, with McGrady and Yao, Rockets should do better but they need more time together to make an impact. Let the result in the coming season do the talking. That's all I need to say.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

A lot of the arguments here are irrational. I would still give Shaq #2 at C (at least until we see what's up with Amare) however I am completely baffled how anyone could even suggest Yao is not #1.

Most of the arguments to put Shaq over Yao are totally baseless.

First of all last year in 31 games that Yao and T-Mac played the Rockets went 21-10, that projects to 56-26 over an 82 game season.

T-Mac was no better than 70 percent in those games, and for just about all of them Yao was playing on a badly diseased toe and was so ill from itt he would vomit before and after every game according to team doctors.

Not even mentioning the terrible supporting cast and tons of other injuries.


I think it should be pretty obvious to anyone that simply isn't hating on Yao, that he can and will lead a team to a lot of wins probably much more so than Shaq is even capable of now in even limited stretches.

The argument that Yao is not as good as Shaq because his team went 5-21 when he had

PG Rafer Alston
SG David Wesley
SF Luther Head
PF Juwan Howard

or 

PG David Wesley
SG Luther Head
SF Keith Bogans
PF Juwan Howard

or 

PG Rick Brunson
SG Luther Head
SF Ryan Bowen
PF Juwan Howard

etc next to him basically that entire stretch of games and was triple teamed every game just about..............proves what?

Yes I am sure everyone who thinks Shaq would have led that team to a better than 5-21 record actually watched about 3 nba games last year.

And to this failed logic,

T-Mac started the year 2-19 in Orlando with a team similarly as bad perhaps as that Houston team 

Kobe finished the year 2-19 with a totally messed up Lakers squad that nonetheless was BETTER than that Houston team last year.

Now tell me who is better now?

A healthty T-Mac or Shaq now?

Kobe or Shaq now?


See using this THEORY that somehow Shaq would never lead one of the worst teams of the last 10 years to a 5-21 record (mind you 34 year old Shaq now) as prove that Shaq is better than Yao.......

would be the same thing as arguing that 34 year old Shaq is better than healthy T-Mac or Kobe because of their 2-19 runs with similarly awful teams.

If you want to make that argument using prime Shaq fine, but last year or this year? Absolutely RIDICULOUS.

Another thing is the argument that Shaq draws more attention from defenses and changes the game more..............................

Did anyone making that argument watch a single Rockets game last year? SERIUOSLY there is no way anyone could say that with a straight face.

I can't even remember how many games on League Pass I saw where Yao was triple teamed on the ball, double teamed off the ball (a defense illegal in 90 percent of Shaq's career), sandwiched (a defense illegal in 90 percent of Shaq's career), even a few games where he was triple teamed off the ball, particularly a game against the Suns really sticks out.

That game against the Suns sticks out because that was brought up earlier in the thread to suggest Yao cannot run and still is too tired and is useless against the Suns.

Well, that defense was illegal for 99 percent of league history and funny enough when Shaq saw just about HALF, yes I saw HALF the focus when he played the Suns, he was just as inneffctive.

But then Yao still had a strong game against the Suns.

I can specifically remember seeing Yao drop 36 points against a Dallas triple team, then seeing Shaq struggle to get about 8 against a similar defense, yet again not as focused against him.

And the argument that it was because Shaq passed out to help teammates is bogus. Shaq simply cannot score and relies on Wade to save him now if he sees even a solid double team.

Yao can still drop 30 + against a focused triple team.

Arguing Shaq is still better than Yao is about as absurd as arguing that Shaq is a better FT shooter than Yao.

This thread is utterly ridiculous.


Now I agree Duncan is still better as of what we know now, however that gap is not as big as people make out. I would say it is still likely Duncan can be better this year, but have no doubt Yao can be better this year and by next year will be better.

However regardless of where Yao or Duncan are ranked as big men or post players, 

Duncan is #1 PF
Yao is #1 C

No matter how much some people want to class Duncan as a C he is still a PF, and playing a lot of C in playoffs does not change that, otherwise you could call CWebb a C the same way, etc.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> How foolish of me to think that if they were worthy of being called the best 1-2 punch in the league, that they would have managed to lead a team to a playoff series victory once in one of their careers. Oh, yeah, that's right they're surrounded by CBA level players, and nothing is ever their fault.



This is becoming a problem on this board. Lack of accountability (re: wins) for so called super star players.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> This is becoming a problem on this board. Lack of accountability (re: wins) for so called super star players.


Darn straight. Its really sad. Some people continually make excuses for this so called great players who cant justify this greatness by winning.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> This is becoming a problem on this board. Lack of accountability (re: wins) for so called super star players.





HB said:


> Darn straight. Its really sad. Some people continually make excuses for this so called great players who cant justify this greatness by winning.


The both of your comments are the essence of what my thread Does winning matter? perception vs reality is about. The issue your arguing is actually two-fold. Firstly a great player is a great player regardless of who his teammates are. Secondly, across league history there has never been a single player who won a championship by himself. If you look at every NBA Champion (outside of the 04' Pistons) in the history of the league you'll find out that every championship team had it's established superstar surrounded by other good to great players. Therefore, the argument should be centered around the franchise as a whole, not on the superstar player that the media puts in your face.

The argument the both of you are using has proven to be a transient argument that can change every year depending on players teammates (see KG in 2003 and see KG now). You guys are arguing perception, when the reality is something entirely different.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

ralaw said:


> The both of your comments are the essence of what my thread Does winning matter? perception vs reality is about. The issue your arguing is actually two-fold. Firstly a great player is a great player regardless of who his teammates are. Secondly, across league history there has never been a single player who won a championship by himself. If you look at every NBA Champion (outside of the 04' Pistons) in the history of the league you'll find out that every championship team had it's established superstar surrounded by other good to great players. Therefore, the argument should be centered around the franchise as a whole, not on the superstar player that the media puts in your face.
> 
> The argument the both of you are using has proven to be a transient argument that can change every year depending on players teammates (see KG in 2003 and see KG now). You guys are arguing perception, when the reality is something entirely different.


We are not talking chgampionship. We are talking about guys being considered the best at their position or one of the greatest duo's ever that can't make the playoffs or get out of the 2nd round. That is a far cry from even being a championship contending team.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> We are not talking chgampionship. We are talking about guys being considered the best at their position or one of the greatest duo's ever that can't make the playoffs or get out of the 2nd round. That is a far cry from even being a championship contending team.


As I stated earlier, I don't think Yao and McGrady will ever win a championship together, but this has less to do with them and more to do with who they'll have to go through in order to win. However, I do believe barring any injuries, they'll make it out of the 2nd round at some point (which shouldn't be saying much). I will admit the the talk about them being among the greatest duo's ever is premature, but this comes with the territory when two great individual players come together. Now, you have to remember as you are using the short sampling of games (the 5-21 record) to validate your beliefs, people are looking at the games in which both players were healthy, where the Rockets have a combined record of 72-41 in two seasons and a 7 game loss in the first round to a better Mavericks team in the 05' playoffs.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> How foolish of me to think that if they were worthy of being called the best 1-2 punch in the league, that they would have managed to lead a team to a playoff series victory once in one of their careers. Oh, yeah, that's right they're surrounded by CBA level players, and nothing is ever their fault.


So, based on your argument, a player is not good unless his team wins a playoff series.

OK, so, do you think Kevin Garnett is a good player? I mean, without Spreewell and Cassell, he hasn't won a playoff series, but it's not his team's fault, it's Kevin Garnett's fault, right? Boo hoo!

Get real dude. I'm so sick of people doubting the skill of the player because they are surrounded by a terrible supporting cast, or that they didn't win a playoff series by themselves. Stockton and Malone are two of the greatest players in NBA history, but they did not reach the finals until they actually had a half-decent supporting cast around them. During the season, they would pick and roll until team's defenses couldn't move. If they hadn't ever been to the finals, I bet you'd use your terrible excuse of "you're not a good player if your team doesn't win". They were both Hall of Fame players either way, and luckily the people that control that can actually tell who was a good player and who wasn't. Based on your argument, I could say that Rasho Nesterovic was the best center to grace god's earth because the Spurs won a championship.

Quit using the "team doesn't win" excuse. It's stupid, pathetic, and proof that people can't understand a player's value unless there are championships in his pocket, which is the worst judgement on a single player I've ever seen. Players don't win championships, teams do.


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

Yao is going to average 30-10 while the Rockets win 60 games this year, with a healthy tmac averaging 30-5-5 or something. They will win the nba championship and will be declared the greatest team in nba history. Because obviously, Yao is better than Shaq and tmac better than d. wade or any other perimeter player in the league. But, if they somehow aren't healthy then it isn't their problem that the team might win only 35 games. The supporting cast sucks. IT doesn't make a difference that they have the supposed #1 center and sometimes argued top perimter player in the league.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

beamer05 said:


> Yao is going to average 30-10 while the Rockets win 60 games this year, with a healthy tmac averaging 30-5-5 or something. They will win the nba championship and will be declared the greatest team in nba history. Because obviously, Yao is better than Shaq and tmac better than d. wade or any other perimeter player in the league. But, if they somehow aren't healthy then it isn't their problem that the team might win only 35 games. The supporting cast sucks. IT doesn't make a difference that they have the supposed #1 center and sometimes argued top perimter player in the league.


 and in '03 shaq was clearly not the best center in the league because he was paired with someone who people were arguing was the best perimeter player in the league and they only won 50 games and lost in the second round.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Pimped Out said:


> and in '03 shaq was clearly not the best center in the league because he was paired with someone who people were arguing was the best perimeter player in the league and they only won 50 games and lost in the second round.


But at least they made it to the second round


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## Cambridgeshire (Jan 15, 2005)

It is absolutely comic that posts such as by myself and 'Rule_By_His_Own_Hand' in the previous page are just overlooked, simply, because these posters are afraid to face what is simply fact. Instead, they choose to overlook it and continue to dwindle in their own imaginary and opinionated spellings.


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

Cambridgeshire said:


> It is absolutely comic that posts such as by myself and 'Rule_By_His_Own_Hand' in the previous page are just overlooked, simply, because these posters are afraid to face what is simply fact. Instead, they choose to overlook it and continue to dwindle in their own imaginary and opinionated spellings.



I just don't feel like responding to someone who feels the need to write for a whole page about how Yao is the best center in the league. That post is too long, and I'm far too lazy to care about it too much. The fact that he felt he needed to say that much to defend Yao is interesting. And the fact that you think Yao is better than Shaq is your own opinionated spelling as well. And somewhat imaginary as well. No matter how much Yao's numbers are better than Shaq's I will never be convinced that Yao has as big an impact on the game or is better than Shaq.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

beamer05 said:


> I just don't feel like responding to someone who feels the need to write for a whole page about how Yao is the best center in the league. That post is too long, and I'm far too lazy to care about it too much. The fact that he felt he needed to say that much to defend Yao is interesting. And the fact that you think Yao is better than Shaq is your own opinionated spelling as well. And somewhat imaginary as well. No matter how much Yao's numbers are better than Shaq's I will never be convinced that Yao has as big an impact on the game or is better than Shaq.


I know it seems proposterous tho say Yao is better than Shaq right now, since:
- Shaq has just won another championship;
- Yao's team was mediocre;
- We have vivid images of the prime/dominant shaq in our minds till now.

But shaq is wearing down. Not fast, like many people predicted, but noticeably. And with Shaq, it's all about his will to aproach a season. If he is motivated for next season, yes, he can still deliver another 20-10 season. If he is not motivated, forget about him being more than a injury-prone, out-of-shape 18-8 player. On the other hand, Yao is steadily developing and becoming more assertive. If he is not better than Shaq now, odds are, at the end of next season, he will be considered as such.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

As great as Yao's stats may be next season. Yao's impact/stats don't even compare to the prescence of an aging Shaq in the decline. That just go's to show you how great Shaq is. Shaq's decline in points per game, rebounds, and all around defense are still better then Yao on his best day because of Shaq's prescence alone. Yao looks awkward on a basketball court still, something you could never say about Shaq. I'll give Yao a few more years when his game gets more fluid. When Yao actually leads his team to something. Untill then Stats are pretty to look at and all. But I prefer championhips, and winning teams. Something you know you will get out of Shaq.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Yao looks awkward on a basketball court still, something you could never say about Shaq.


how does that have anything to do with his ability as a basketball player? you think he looks awkward on a basketball court. does that matter when he's putting up 20+ and 10+ on good field goal percentage against constant double teams and giving his teammates wide open looks(whether they make them or not)?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

unluckyseventeen said:


> So, based on your argument, a player is not good unless his team wins a playoff series.
> 
> OK, so, do you think Kevin Garnett is a good player? I mean, without Spreewell and Cassell, he hasn't won a playoff series, but it's not his team's fault, it's Kevin Garnett's fault, right? Boo hoo!
> 
> ...


I tried to read this post, but I just couldn't get through it.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

23AJ said:


> As great as Yao's stats may be next season. Yao's impact/stats don't even compare to the prescence of an aging Shaq in the decline. That just go's to show you how great Shaq is. Shaq's decline in points per game, rebounds, and all around defense are still better then Yao on his best day because of Shaq's prescence alone. Yao looks awkward on a basketball court still, something you could never say about Shaq. I'll give Yao a few more years when his game gets more fluid. *When Yao actually leads his team to something*. Untill then Stats are pretty to look at and all. But I prefer championhips, and winning teams. Something you know you will get out of Shaq.


Just have to say Shaq has lead (sp?) his team to nothing in this last 4 years. 

And i don't think Shaq impacts the game as much as you are saying (at least, compared to Yao). First of all, he is not always there. He has missed a ton of games in the previous years and i'm not so sure it's gonna stop (last year he missed 23 games). Second, although he is still a easy-dunk-if-slept-upon-player, he just doesn't demand the amount of double teams he used to. I'd go ahead and say that Yao faces the same or pretty much so double teams than Shaq. 

An dhealthy and motivated Sahq is still the best player in the world. But we haven't seen THAT Shaq in how many years? 

Like i've said, in the end of the following season, odds are Yao will be the better player.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Just have to say Shaq has lead (sp?) his team to nothing in this last 4 years.
> 
> And i don't think Shaq impacts the game as much as you are saying (at least, compared to Yao). First of all, he is not always there. He has missed a ton of games in the previous years and i'm not so sure it's gonna stop (last year he missed 23 games). Second, although he is still a easy-dunk-if-slept-upon-player, he just doesn't demand the amount of double teams he used to. I'd go ahead and say that Yao faces the same or pretty much so double teams than Shaq.
> 
> ...


Shaq had lead his team deep into the playoffs every season. Since he came into the league. Somethign You can't say for in Yao. The reason is simply put Yao isn't as good as Shaq now, and has a long way to go to ever get anywhere near what Shaq did in his prime.

I give the examples of the best team in the league the Detroit Pistons, and the Dallas Mavericks who beat the Spurs, and had the third best record in the entire league as evidence enough that an aging Shaq's presence alone makes a huge impact on the game of basketball. Since obviously Shaq's stats weren't much to gloat about. Something the awkward/Passive Yao doesn't have yet. By the way I'm not trying to discredit Yao at all. I think he's making strides, but he just doesn't set the table, and make the impact on the game that Shaq does by prescence alone.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> how does that have anything to do with his ability as a basketball player? you think he looks awkward on a basketball court. does that matter when he's putting up 20+ and 10+ on good field goal percentage against constant double teams and giving his teammates wide open looks(whether they make them or not)?


The reason it matters to me. Is because when Yao isn't tripping all over himself on the basketball court. His game will be more fluid which would IMO only help his production as a basketball player.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Shaq had lead his team deep into the playoffs every season. Since he came into the league. Somethign You can't say for in Yao. The reason is simply put Yao isn't as good as Shaq now, *and has a long way to go to ever get anywhere near what Shaq did in his prime*.


In the last 4 years of his career, it wasn't Shaq who was doing the leading.

And Yao most probably will never come close to what Shaq did in his prime. Few players have done similar things before him. Few players will after him. and Yao is no shaq, i agree.

But the question is: is Yao better than Shaq *now*?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> In the last 4 years of his career, it wasn't Shaq who was doing the leading.
> 
> And Yao most probably will never come close to what Shaq did in his prime. Few players have done similar things before him. Few players will after him. and Yao is no shaq, i agree.
> 
> But the question is: is Yao better than Shaq *now*?


And to answer the question again I maintain no Yao is not.

Also Shaq's done more leading in the past 4 years then that of Yao. That's not even comparable.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

23AJ said:


> And to answer the question again I maintain no Yao is not.


I'm perfectly cool with that.



> Also Shaq's done more leading in the past 4 years then that of Yao. That's not even comparable.


That's not what you were saying prior. What you are saying now, i have no problems with.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> I'm perfectly cool with that.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not what you were saying prior. What you are saying now, i have no problems with.


What do you mean that's not what I was saying ? Please quote the comment. So I can respond to it again. I've pretty much stayed on point regarding this topic. I believe Shaq is head and shoulders above that of Yao. To me Yao is an awkward tumble toe player on the court, thats soft. Is passive, but doesn't have the fluidity in his game to be more productive. Shaq dominated from day one enterting the league, and is always apart of a winning team. Yao doesn't compare anywhere but in stats and, has Shaq beat in height after that everything goes in Shaqs favor.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

23AJ said:


> What do you mean that's not what I was saying ? Please quote the comment. So I can respond to it again.


This was it:


> Shaq had lead his team deep into the playoffs every season. Since he came into the league





> I've pretty much stayed on point regarding this topic. I believe Shaq is head and shoulders above that of Yao. To me Yao is an awkward tumble toe player on the court, thats soft. Is passive, but doesn't have the fluidity in his game to be more productive.


I agree that, sometimes, Yao looks a bit confused out there. But not with the point yo are trying to make here.



> Shaq dominated from day one enterting the league, and is always apart of a winning team. Yao doesn't compare anywhere but in stats and, has Shaq beat in height after that everything goes in Shaqs favor.


I don't know why you keep bringing Shaq's past into this. Shaq is an all-time top-10 player. Yao will never be one. So what? that's not what we are discussing here. Shaq's glorious past has no relevance to the point being debated.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

23AJ said:


> What do you mean that's not what I was saying ? Please quote the comment. So I can respond to it again. I've pretty much stayed on point regarding this topic. I believe Shaq is head and shoulders above that of Yao. To me Yao is an awkward tumble toe player on the court, thats soft. Is passive, but doesn't have the fluidity in his game to be more productive. Shaq dominated from day one enterting the league, and is always apart of a winning team. Yao doesn't compare anywhere but in stats and, has Shaq beat in height after that everything goes in Shaqs favor.


Paulo is right. Shaq's past has no relevance in the topic at hand, which asks about the present. In my opinion, Shaq is a top-5 player of all time. Yao simply can't compare. However, to say that Yao is awkward and passive on the court is to show utter ignorance. This is the same Yao who had 25.7/11.5 after the All-Star Break. This is also the same Yao who lead all scores at the World Championships while shooting over 55% from the field and put up 21/10 on an American defense anchored towards him. If you watch any Rockets games, you will see that Yao is not passive. If anything, McGrady is the more passive one on the team. 

I'm speculating that you're gonna bring up the fact that Yao only played 30 games after the All-Star Break. That point is irrelevant because this argument is based on the assumption that Yao finally fixed his rotting toe and has IMPROVED his game. I agree that should he revert back to his 19/9 self, this conversation is over. However, at this present time, we can maintain the assumption that Yao is the 25/11 player that we saw at the second half of last year.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

i feel awkward agreeing with paulo.

but i would like to know how yao is soft. he plays in the post all game fighting for position, bangs bodies to try to get rebounds, and contests every shot near the basket. how is that soft?

and im officially convinced 23AJ hasnt seen yao play outside of that crossover by marbury.


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

Pimped Out said:


> i feel awkward agreeing with paulo.
> 
> but i would like to know how yao is soft. he plays in the post all game fighting for position, bangs bodies to try to get rebounds, and contests every shot near the basket. how is that soft?
> 
> and im officially convinced 23AJ hasnt seen yao play outside of that crossover by marbury.


The knock on Yao is that he is too easily pushed out of position. I don't think that's true as it was when he first game into the league, when he struggled with stamina and could not play more than 30 a game. But I think that is what they might mean with the soft comment.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Pimped Out said:


> i feel awkward agreeing with paulo.


Eery, isn't it? 

I find it somewhat peculiar to be in the extreme oposite of a renowned NBA writer (renowned is used loosely, here)

Check out this gem by Mejia, while comparing centers and why he thinks Shaq is #1:



> He changes the game. You have to gear your defense around containing him. He's an unstoppable force. Blah, blah, blah. You've heard it all before about the Diesel, who remains the best despite the fact his production has steadily declined. He's learned to pace himself for the playoffs, so you have to deal with him floating through the regular season, but his contributions can still win you a ring. He'll look for one for the thumb in '07.


 Source: 

I was thinking that Mejia didn't watch ball last year. That was confirmed by him putting up Amare at #3.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> The knock on Yao is that he is too easily pushed out of position. I don't think that's true as it was when he first game into the league, when he struggled with stamina and could not play more than 30 a game. But I think that is what they might mean with the soft comment.


I don't think that was ever particularly true. While Yao doesn't have the overall bulk of a Shaq, his lower body is extremely powerful. He has a pretty massive base, and did since his rookie season, which makes him very hard to simply move. That's why he played Shaq surprisingly well even from the start, when Shaq was closer to his prime. Shaq couldn't just run him over or drive him into the basket stanchion as he has so many others.


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> I don't think that was ever particularly true. While Yao doesn't have the overall bulk of a Shaq, his lower body is extremely powerful. He has a pretty massive base, and did since his rookie season, which makes him very hard to simply move. That's why he played Shaq surprisingly well even from the start, when Shaq was closer to his prime. Shaq couldn't just run him over or drive him into the basket stanchion as he has so many others.


I think it was true for a time, but never to the extent that people claim. When I watched him play early in his career, he was prone to getting pushed out of a play by shorter guys that could get low on him. He never lacked strength in his legs in my opinion, but his general lack of stamina hurt him because he could not be aggressive on as many plays later in the game. He seems to have overcome that somewhat, but he still hasn't completely learned how to log heavy minutes while maintaining his aggressiveness.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Why is nobody mentioning Yao Ming's biggest weakness: stamina. He gets tired after only 5 minutes of play. Old Shaq still has higher stamina than Yao. I always see him panting or standing doubled over with his hands on his knees gasping for air.

Yao is one of my favorite players, if not my favorite player at the moment, but his stamina is a huge problem. With his free throw percentage and his skills he could easily average over 30 points a night but he doesn't because he runs out of gas so quickly and either has to be taken out for a rest or play in a lower gear.


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## Cambridgeshire (Jan 15, 2005)

Because if you bothered to watch Yao in the last two seasons, you'll know that stamina isn't much of an issue any longer. 

Bloody hell, people have to stop making blind comments about these players. Either post with some intelligence, or don't post just for the sake of posting, it wastes everyone's time.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Cambridgeshire said:


> Because if you bothered to watch Yao in the last two seasons, you'll know that stamina isn't much of an issue any longer.
> 
> Bloody hell, people have to stop making blind comments about these players. Either post with some intelligence, or don't post just for the sake of posting, it wastes everyone's time.


I live in Houston and I watched every single Rockets game last year and it bloody hell was a problem. I can't even tell you how many times I have seen him drop 15 in the first quarter and then end the game with only 20-25 because he has to come out every 5 minutes. Whenever play is stopped he is doubled over panting. Rockets fans and the Rockets team who know what they're talking about know that stamina is his biggest problem and Yao Ming himself said that was the number one area he would address this offseason. I sure hope he has because as I said he is one of my favorite players. However, dominant force? Not there yet.

Take your own advice and learn to post with intelligence which includes not making rash declarations about other posters before you find out that they actually know more than you.


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## K-Dub (Jun 26, 2005)

adam said:


> Why is nobody mentioning Yao Ming's biggest weakness: stamina. He gets tired after only 5 minutes of play. *Old Shaq still has higher stamina than Yao.* I always see him panting or standing doubled over with his hands on his knees gasping for air.
> 
> Yao is one of my favorite players, if not my favorite player at the moment, but his stamina is a huge problem. With his free throw percentage and his skills he could easily average over 30 points a night but he doesn't because he runs out of gas so quickly and either has to be taken out for a rest or play in a lower gear.


Post All Star Break Shaq- 32.4 mpg
Post All Star Break Yao - 35.7 mpg
Thank you. Come again.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

adam said:


> I live in Houston and I watched every single Rockets game last year and it bloody hell was a problem. I can't even tell you how many times I have seen him drop 15 in the first quarter and then end the game with only 20-25 because he has to come out every 5 minutes.


So he COULD do even more. That doesn't really impact whether what he already does is better than what Shaq does.

And you're exaggerating liberally. Yao plays long chunks of the game, and he's hardly invisible most of the game. He plays strong, active defense all game long, which wouldn't be possible if he didn't have good stamina. The biggest reason that he doesn't score all game long is that in many games, Rockets' perimeter players start jacking up shots rather than getting the ball into Yao. Sura, Barry and McGrady are about the only guys who consistently try to keep Yao involved, and all three of them missed most of the season.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> So he COULD do even more. That doesn't really impact whether what he already does is better than what Shaq does.
> 
> And you're exaggerating liberally. Yao plays long chunks of the game, and he's hardly invisible most of the game. He plays strong, active defense all game long, which wouldn't be possible if he didn't have good stamina. The biggest reason that he doesn't score all game long is that in many games, Rockets' perimeter players start jacking up shots rather than getting the ball into Yao. Sura, Barry and McGrady are about the only guys who consistently try to keep Yao involved, and all three of them missed most of the season.


What he does? He doesn't win that's what he does. He isn't dominant in the paint at all, and I remember reading earlier in the thread where you suggested that he was. I see him get tired and then he gets pushed around by guys like Adrian Griffin and...omg...Boris Diaw. Did you watch those games or just the live action updates on nba.com? Averaging points on one of the league's worst teams when there is no other scoring option is nothing new. Remember the year Jimmy Jackson averaged around 28ppg? You need to stop judging his play by box scores alone and watch live tape of Yao. He has to work on his stamina and then he will not only be better than fat Shaq, he will be one of the all-time greats.

And I hate saying stuff like this because I look like a Yao hater when in fact he is probably my 2nd favorite player in the league, and as I said I watch every Houston game. And yes there's no doubt he could do more. If he builds up his endurance he should be averaging around 30+ ppg without question. Something Shaq had trouble doing even in his prime.




> Post All Star Break Shaq- 32.4 mpg
> Post All Star Break Yao - 35.7 mpg
> Thank you. Come again.


Post all star break? Why don't you post a real stat? That stat is so flawed because it shows a portion of the season when Yao was healthier, more rested, and the only option on his team.


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## K-Dub (Jun 26, 2005)

adam said:


> What he does? He doesn't win that's what he does. He isn't dominant in the paint at all, and I remember reading earlier in the thread where you suggested that he was. I see him get tired and then he gets pushed around by guys like Adrian Griffin and...omg...Boris Diaw. Did you watch those games or just the live action updates on nba.com? Averaging points on one of the league's worst teams when there is no other scoring option is nothing new. Remember the year Jimmy Jackson averaged around 28ppg? You need to stop judging his play by box scores alone and watch live tape of Yao. He has to work on his stamina and then he will not only be better than fat Shaq, he will be one of the all-time greats.
> 
> And I hate saying stuff like this because I look like a Yao hater when in fact he is probably my 2nd favorite player in the league, and as I said I watch every Houston game. And yes there's no doubt he could do more. If he builds up his endurance he should be averaging around 30+ ppg without question. Something Shaq had trouble doing even in his prime.
> 
> ...


And Shaq wasn't? You remember Shaq had the injury near the beginning of the season. Both were healthy and rested. And Yao played more than a couple games (don't have the exact number with me) with T-Mac before T-Mac bruised his tailbone. And just to shut you up.. Yao- 34.4 mpg... Shaq- 30.6 mpg. Come again.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

K-Dub said:


> And Shaq wasn't? You remember Shaq had the injury near the beginning of the season. Both were healthy and rested. And Yao played more than a couple games (don't have the exact number with me) with T-Mac before T-Mac bruised his tailbone. And just to shut you up.. Yao- 34.4 mpg... Shaq- 30.6 mpg. Come again.


Shaq = 33yrs old at the start of last season
Yao = 25yrs old at the start of last season

Both are pathetic mpg values frankly; however, Shaq is playing dominant on the court and sitting down at formulaic points of every game so Alonzo Mourning can come in. Shaq was also injured alot this year which is alot tougher on an older and heavier player. Yao is coming out because of fatigue. Are you going to tell me you don't see Yao Ming in that pose where he is bent over with his hands over his knees and panting? He does it every single time the clock is stopped. Are you going to tell me that he himself didn't say that stamina is his number one concern this offseason? 34mpg for a 25 yr. old strengthens my claim not yours.

And I explicitly said that stats do not tell the story. Shaq does not wither on the court whereas Yao does. There's no way you can watch a rockets game, any game, and tell me that Yao does not have endurance concerns. Come again.


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## K-Dub (Jun 26, 2005)

adam said:


> Shaq = 33yrs old at the start of last season
> Yao = 25yrs old at the start of last season
> 
> Both are pathetic mpg values frankly; however, Shaq is playing dominant on the court and sitting down at formulaic points of every game so Alonzo Mourning can come in. Shaq was also injured alot this year which is alot tougher on an older and heavier player. Yao is coming out because of fatigue. Are you going to tell me you don't see Yao Ming in that pose where he is bent over with his hands over his knees and panting? He does it every single time the clock is stopped. Are you going to tell me that he himself didn't say that stamina is his number one concern this offseason? *34mpg for a 25 yr. old strengthens my claim not yours.*
> And I explicitly said that stats do not tell the story. Shaq does not wither on the court whereas Yao does. There's no way you can watch a rockets game, any game, and tell me that Yao does not have endurance concerns. Come again.


34mpg from a 25 yr old who played half of his season with a toe infection is quite good. Meanwhile Shaq was "preserving" himself for the playoffs (where he only played 33 mpg, [Finals 35.2 mpg]). And Alonzo only played 11 mpg. I'm not saying Yao doesn't have stamina problems. I'm saying Yao has more stamina than Shaq which all the stats seem to prove. Now unless you've recorded the number of times Yao pants per game and have done the same for Shaq, MPG is the definitive stat.

EDIT: I forgot... Come again.


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

K-Dub said:


> 34mpg from a 25 yr old who played half of his season with a toe infection is quite good. Meanwhile Shaq was "preserving" himself for the playoffs (where he only played 33 mpg, [Finals 35.2 mpg]). And Alonzo only played 11 mpg. I'm not saying Yao doesn't have stamina problems. I'm saying Yao has more stamina than Shaq which all the stats seem to prove. Now unless you've recorded the number of times Yao pants per game and have done the same for Shaq, MPG is the definitive stat.
> 
> EDIT: I forgot... Come again.




Dude you've got a thing with guys coming at you. The mpg doesn't really prove much of anything.


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## K-Dub (Jun 26, 2005)

beamer05 said:


> Dude you've got a thing with guys coming at you. The mpg doesn't really prove much of anything.


I think it proves my point in this case. Unless there's a better one, I'd rather go with what's there. And who's been comin at me?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

adam said:


> What he does? He doesn't win that's what he does.


Relevant point if this were tennis or skiing or some other one-on-one sport. Completely meaningless since teams succeed and fail based on their overall talent, not the one player we're discussing.



> He isn't dominant in the paint at all, and I remember reading earlier in the thread where you suggested that he was.


Depends on how you define "dominant." He scores more that Shaq, score more efficiently than Shaq and rebounds more than Shaq. Whether he's dominant is purely a matter of opinion, but the facts suggest he's superior to Shaq.



> I see him get tired and then he gets pushed around by guys like Adrian Griffin and...omg...Boris Diaw. Did you watch those games or just the live action updates on nba.com?


I've seen plenty of his games. He was not getting "pushed around" by Adrian Griffin and Boris Diaw.



> He has to work on his stamina and then he will not only be better than fat Shaq, he will be one of the all-time greats.


That's as may be, but I've only been debating the question posed to start this thread, about whether Yao is better than Shaq. And, again, all evidence suggests that he is.



> Post all star break? Why don't you post a real stat? That stat is so flawed because it shows a portion of the season when Yao was healthier, more rested, and the only option on his team.


More rested? K-Dub posted the portion of the season when players are most likely to get worn down. Yao's stamina is clearly not among the best in the game, but he has more endurance/durability than Shaq. Considering he not only outproduces Shaq but also plays significantly better defense (Shaq hasn't bothered to put effort into his defense in several years now), it's pretty clear that Yao expends more energy than Shaq has shown himself capable of.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Relevant point if this were tennis or skiing or some other one-on-one sport. Completely meaningless since teams succeed and fail based on their overall talent, not the one player we're discussing.


False. Only one team has succeeded in the past 20 years without a superstar player. All the other championships went to Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, and Hakeem. Further proven false by the fact that Shaq has taken three different teams to the finals. Absolutely, 100% false...

And when people mention Shaq's intangibles you counter with stats, yet you later go on to claim that individual play doesn't mater? That's a contradiction because stats are all about individual play.




> Depends on how you define "dominant." He scores more that Shaq, score more efficiently than Shaq and rebounds more than Shaq. Whether he's dominant is purely a matter of opinion, but the facts suggest he's superior to Shaq.


Which facts are these? His career 31mpg at the height of his youth? That proves he lacks endurance and thus is not dominating the other team. Shaq wear them out whereas Yao wears himself out. Huge difference



> I've seen plenty of his games. He was not getting "pushed around" by Adrian Griffin and Boris Diaw.


Then you didn't see those games. He was manhandled by Boris Diaw. Mark Blount also has his number.




> That's as may be, but I've only been debating the question posed to start this thread, about whether Yao is better than Shaq. And, again, all evidence suggests that he is.


Sorry, Shaq still dominates the paint and Yao Ming does not do that yet. This is proven in the Wins and Losses whether you want to believe it or not.





> More rested? K-Dub posted the portion of the season when players are most likely to get worn down. Yao's stamina is clearly not among the best in the game, but he has more endurance/durability than Shaq. Considering he not only outproduces Shaq but also plays significantly better defense (Shaq hasn't bothered to put effort into his defense in several years now), it's pretty clear that Yao expends more energy than Shaq has shown himself capable of.


K-Dub and you have both now agreed with me that Yao's endurance is a problem (thank you K-Dub, come again). When it is debateable whether he has more stamina than a fat injured Shaq that tells me he is not dominant. And if I want a dominant player that will produce for me I'm still going with Shaq. And that is only until Yao improves his endurance, so let me make that clear.


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

Don't try to argue with Minstrel. He is never wrong and would never admit such. Nor would he ever admit if he contradicts himself. You just can't 'win' with him. He knows everything about basketball. Period.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

Manhandled by Boris Diaw? I'm sorry, but I watched 79 Rockets games last season and Yao was definitely not manhandled by the likes of Diaw. I do remember one game where Yao only scored 8 points. However, that was due to off the ball double teaming and on-the-ball triple teams. When they actually got the ball to Yao, there is absolutely nothing that Diaw can do.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

adam said:


> False. Only one team has succeeded in the past 20 years without a superstar player. All the other championships went to Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, and Hakeem. Further proven false by the fact that Shaq has taken three different teams to the finals. Absolutely, 100% false...


Logically, this makes no sense. I never said teams don't need great players. I said that teams win and lose based on their overall talent--obviously, great players add to that overall talent.

It's ridiculous to claim that individual players win and lose on their own. Jordan didn't win anything until he got a tremendous supporting cast. Same for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, etc. Shaq has won because he's been a great player surrounded by great talent. Shaq has NEVER won with the type of crap Yao was surrounded by with McGrady injured.



> And when people mention Shaq's intangibles you counter with stats, yet you later go on to claim that individual play doesn't mater? That's a contradiction because stats are all about individual play.


You seem extremely confused. I never said individual play doesn't matter. I said individuals don't win and lose by themselves.



> Which facts are these?


Yao scored more per game, scored at higher efficiency, pulled down more rebounds per game and played better defense. Facts which show Yao was a superior player to Shaq.



> Then you didn't see those games.


Or, more likely, you're inventing things.



> Sorry, Shaq still dominates the paint and Yao Ming does not do that yet. This is proven in the Wins and Losses whether you want to believe it or not.


Wins and losses prove that Shaq had better teammates.



> K-Dub and you have both now agreed with me that Yao's endurance is a problem (thank you K-Dub, come again). When it is debateable whether he has more stamina than a fat injured Shaq that tells me he is not dominant.


I'm not terribly interested in your definition of "dominant." I could define "dominant" such that no player in the NBA meets the standard.

What I was arguing in this thread was that Yao is currently superior to Shaq, and so far nobody has contradicted that with any facts or logic.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

beamer05 said:


> Don't try to argue with Minstrel. He is never wrong and would never admit such. Nor would he ever admit if he contradicts himself. You just can't 'win' with him. He knows everything about basketball. Period.


Being sarcastic makes you smart and right, Beamer05. 



Oh, and Minstrel sure knows a hell lot more about basketball than you do.


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## Mamba81 (May 17, 2006)

Teams prepare more when they know there going up against Shaq and they worry about what he can do out there. Nobody worries about Yao he's passive, he lacks intensity big time, Earl Boykins could dunk on his ***.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

If you don't count the Jazz game in which he got injured after 8 minutes, Yao actually averaged 37 mpg after the All-Star Break. Which isn't bad at all. The fact that he rests his hands on his knees during breaks in play doesn't matter. Jordan did that too.


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

bronx43 said:


> Being sarcastic makes you smart and right, Beamer05.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and Minstrel sure knows a hell lot more about basketball than you do.



Really? And you have sat down and discussed basketball with the both of us rather than through your keyboard and internet connection? Sure, he probably knows a decent amount about basketball, as I'm sure you and lots of other people here on these boards do... however, it's rather funny to me that you know how to judge who is 'smarter' based on the internet. That makes total sense. Or as Minstrel the great would say, "Using that logic is completely and utterly asinine, it conveys no sense at all." Yes, I'm being sarcastic once again, Bronx43. "Come again."


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## smrtguy (Jun 20, 2006)

As of right now, give me the guy with more intensity on the floor.
Give me the guy with 4 rings.
Give me the guy with 3 Finals MVP's.
Give me the guy that can dominate without even touching the ball.
Give me the Daddy until he retires.

In my opinion, Yao will never be able to dominate the way Shaq did with the Lakers during their 3 Championships run. 

All this coming from a guy who likes Yao and Shaq equally the same.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

Yao has like 8 years left to be where Shaq is? Come on guys Yao is going to dominate.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

beamer05 said:


> Really? And you have sat down and discussed basketball with the both of us rather than through your keyboard and internet connection? Sure, he probably knows a decent amount about basketball, as I'm sure you and lots of other people here on these boards do... however, it's rather funny to me that you know how to judge who is 'smarter' based on the internet. That makes total sense. Or as Minstrel the great would say, "Using that logic is completely and utterly asinine, it conveys no sense at all." Yes, I'm being sarcastic once again, Bronx43. "Come again."


*Edit* I'm quite sure we all know that arguing online is completely without ultimate satisfaction. I don't know for certain that posterA knows any more than posterB. That was be ridiculous speculation, and I thank you for pointing that obvious bit out. However, in this very much closed environment where the only interaction or supporting evidence I have comes from posts, I'm sure I can make safe assumptions about a poster's knowledge only within the realms of this forum. I am not making sweeping judgments about your person, but from what I can see, it's not totally "asinine" to assume one poster's knowledge over another. Everything that is stated here should only be pertinent in BBB.net. Minstrel has been a veteran member who offers great insights and usually does so objectively. In my opinion, it's perfectly appropriate to credit him as the more knowledgeable upon seeing your sarcastic and off-topic post which contributes nothing to the discussion at hand.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Well one of the greatest arguments for Shaq > Yao is that Shaq wins more, and Minstrel is one that believes one individual does not dictate team success by himself. I disagree. I think that Shaq individually propels his teams to win with his intangibles. It's the reason why he has taken three different teams to the Finals. Three teams that barely sniffed the playoffs before he arrived.

Minstrel and I have just have different philosophies. Frankly, if I was one who believed individual play didn't solely dictate team success then I would be right with Minstrel and say Yao Ming is better. However, I think superstars carry teams on their backs because I have seen them do it. Then there is the intangible of "dominance" which people like to throw around. How do you define dominance? It's a tricky subject, but I just know in my gut that Yao Ming is not "dominant" yet. The man was pushed around in the paint by Boris Diaw (I swear to you on this, look up a game recap on google or something to all those who don't believe me). I know he will get there and I hope he does because he is one of my favorite players. I think I identified what he needs to do to get there: improve his stamina. He gets so worn out that he can't even seal his man off on the post anymore and while the guards are waiting for him to establish position he can't do it because he can't fight off his defender, or if he does he can't keep him sealed long enough before the defensive guard on the perimeter recovers and closes that particular passing lane from Yao's teammate.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

adam said:


> Well one of the greatest arguments for Shaq > Yao is that Shaq wins more, and Minstrel is one that believes one individual does not dictate team success by himself. I disagree. I think that Shaq individually propels his teams to win with his intangibles. It's the reason why he has taken three different teams to the Finals. Three teams that barely sniffed the playoffs before he arrived.
> 
> Minstrel and I have just have different philosophies. Frankly, if I was one who believed individual play didn't solely dictate team success then I would be right with Minstrel and say Yao Ming is better. However, I think superstars carry teams on their backs because I have seen them do it. Then there is the intangible of "dominance" which people like to throw around. How do you define dominance? It's a tricky subject, but I just know in my gut that Yao Ming is not "dominant" yet. The man was pushed around in the paint by Boris Diaw (I swear to you on this, look up a game recap on google or something to all those who don't believe me). I know he will get there and I hope he does because he is one of my favorite players. I think I identified what he needs to do to get there: improve his stamina. He gets so worn out that he can't even seal his man off on the post anymore and while the guards are waiting for him to establish position he can't do it because he can't fight off his defender, or if he does he can't keep him sealed long enough before the defensive guard on the perimeter recovers and closes that particular passing lane from Yao's teammate.


I see your point Adam, but the problem is that each of those three teams that you spoke of had completely different scenario. Well, actually the last one had a completely different scenario. During his tenure in Orlando and Los Angeles, Shaq was incredibly dominant. I remember when it took quadruple teams to slow him down during the '00 Portland series. I also remember when he tore down the basketball simply by hanging on it. Yao simply cannot compare to the raw power and dominance that Shaq demonstrated during his earlier years. 
However, all that does not matter in this discussion. This past year, Shaq was the obvious second fiddle. Dwyane Wade won the championship, while Eric Dampier and Diop kept Shaq in check. Also, I highly doubt that game where Diaw pushed Yao around was after his long overdue surgery. I just honestly dont' remember seeing anything like that at all after the AS break. I remember vividly the game when JVG changed up the system a bit so Yao can even touch the ball. Once they got it to him, Diaw and Marion can barely stop him, let alone Diaw himself.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

adam said:


> The man was pushed around in the paint by Boris Diaw (I swear to you on this, look up a game recap on google or something to all those who don't believe me).


yao was double teamed off the ball by boris diaw and shawn marion. if you insist that is getting pushed around by diaw, i guess that's up to you.


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

bronx43 said:


> Great to see you're an adam groupie, beamer05. I'm quite sure we all know that arguing online is completely without ultimate satisfaction. I don't know for certain that posterA knows any more than posterB. That was be ridiculous speculation, and I thank you for pointing that obvious bit out. However, in this very much closed environment where the only interaction or supporting evidence I have comes from posts, I'm sure I can make safe assumptions about a poster's knowledge only within the realms of this forum. I am not making sweeping judgments about your person, but from what I can see, it's not totally "asinine" to assume one poster's knowledge over another. Everything that is stated here should only be pertinent in BBB.net. Minstrel has been a veteran member who offers great insights and usually does so objectively. In my opinion, it's perfectly appropriate to credit him as the more knowledgeable upon seeing your sarcastic and off-topic post which contributes nothing to the discussion at hand.


Now that was lovely. What you tried to accomplish there was to use all these big fancy words and correct grammatical structure to explain why, in your educated opinion, Minstrel is more 'knowledgeable' than me. Now, I never said Minstrel wasn't nor did I claim that I know more about basketball than other people. You are the one who is basing someone's basketball knowledge on a basketball website. Is it not possible that Minstrel seems like a better poster than I because he has thousands more posts to his credit? If you're going to base someone being knowledgeable on the internet, then good for you but I just don't see the logic. I could try and use big, fancy words like you or Minstrel attempt to do.. but I just don't feel the need to prove my 'knowledge.' I know, for me, I don't like to spend a whole lot of time on here- only when I'm bored and having nothing to do. I could accumulate thousands of posts to prove how knowledgeable I'm not, but what's the point?

And yes, we're off topic but you also kept it off topic. So what's the big deal with me bringing it off topic? You also responded to my sarcastic response with one of your own.. so, if you don't like it, don't respond. 

*Unnecessary*

P.S.S. Iam an Adam groupie, what he says makes good sense and I happen to agree with him.

*edit*

Stay on topic and do not insult other posters.

~ShuHanGuanYu


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

beamer05 said:


> Now that was lovely. What you tried to accomplish there was to use all these big fancy words and correct grammatical structure to explain why, in your educated opinion, Minstrel is more 'knowledgeable' than me. Now, I never said Minstrel wasn't nor did I claim that I know more about basketball than other people. You are the one who is basing someone's basketball knowledge on a basketball website. Is it not possible that Minstrel seems like a better poster than I because he has thousands more posts to his credit? If you're going to base someone being knowledgeable on the internet, then good for you but I just don't see the logic. I could try and use big, fancy words like you or Minstrel attempt to do.. but I just don't feel the need to prove my 'knowledge.' I know, for me, I don't like to spend a whole lot of time on here- only when I'm bored and having nothing to do. I could accumulate thousands of posts to prove how knowledgeable I'm not, but what's the point?
> 
> And yes, we're off topic but you also kept it off topic. So what's the big deal with me bringing it off topic? You also responded to my sarcastic response with one of your own.. so, if you don't like it, don't respond.
> 
> ...


*Unnecessary*

Did you even read my previous post? I gave you the reason why my assumption is rather appropriate given the closed environment of an online forum. If that doesn't make sense to you, I can say no more. Please refer to my quote, "I don't know for certain that posterA knows any more than posterB." The meaning of that statement is that I can only use what I see to make a judgment. From your off-topic post, I can only make the assumption that Minstrel is more knowledgable. If you and another member are having an intelligent conversation about basketball, and I interrupt with a sarcastic, irrelevant comment, you would have all the right in the world to snap right back at me. Said snappy comment may not be accurate in the least. However, it would be quite fitting in the given scenario. I am not defending my assertion that Minstrel knows more than you, because I cannot prove it. I am merely defending the relevance of my comment. 

"If you're going to try and be smart..." Tell me where in my post I brought in my own intelligence? You were the one to assume my connotations, even though I had none. You think I try and sound smart purely to make a point? I'm sorry, but it's not true. The content of one's argument is what counts. 

P.S. I love it when people tell others to "get over it" when they expect to have the last word in an argument. If you want to tell me to "get over it", then do so by ending this conversation.

Stay on topic and do not insult other posters.

~ShuHanGuanYu


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

OK guys, now back on topic. Any further off-topic post will be deleted immediately.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

Beamer05, PM me to continue this pleasant little conversation.


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

bronx43 said:


> *Unnecessary*
> 
> Did you even read my previous post? I gave you the reason why my assumption is rather appropriate given the closed environment of an online forum. If that doesn't make sense to you, I can say no more. Please refer to my quote, "I don't know for certain that posterA knows any more than posterB." The meaning of that statement is that I can only use what I see to make a judgment. From your off-topic post, I can only make the assumption that Minstrel is more knowledgable. If you and another member are having an intelligent conversation about basketball, and I interrupt with a sarcastic, irrelevant comment, you would have all the right in the world to snap right back at me. Said snappy comment may not be accurate in the least. However, it would be quite fitting in the given scenario. I am not defending my assertion that Minstrel knows more than you, because I cannot prove it. I am merely defending the relevance of my comment.
> 
> ...


Yao Ming is never going to be better than Shaquille O'neal. Sure, he may put up better numbers this year than Shaq and the next couple years after that but what would that prove? Nothing. No one can convince me that Yao's impact is greater on the game than Shaq's. Do you think D. Wade would have been 'the next jordan' without Shaq on that team? Or that Antoine would get any open 3's to go along with his sometimes forced 3's? There's no way that Yao would have been able to do that. Sure, he will be great. He will put up better numbers than Shaq in the next couple years but that doesn't mean he's better. I'm just trying to stay on topic without *edit* don't insult another poster. Yao will be great, maybe top a 7-8 center of all time when his career is over- but his overall impact on the game and dominance will come nowhere near Shaquille O'neals. Oh, Bronx PM me if you want to continue whatever it is you're trying to continue. I'm done rambling for now.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

The Big Aristotle has been slain. The Ming Dynasty begins.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

sherako said:


> The Big Aristotle has been slain. The Ming Dynasty begins.



Agreed. 

Now I wait for the Heat fans to come in here to say
Shaq has a sore knee. =)


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## BigMac (Jan 14, 2005)

the key for Yao ming are the refs, if they let him play and not call the little touch foul on him then he will be unstopable.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

Where's Beamer05? I love that guy!


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

A picture is worth 1000 words


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

Yao is the best big man in the game right now. Shaq isn't even a top 5 big man, let alone a top 5 player in the league.


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## jordan0386 (Jul 4, 2006)

"Hold me"

"Get Away!"


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## FlyingDragon (Jul 17, 2003)

Thank you Yao Ming and the Rockets team for winning me some money tonight.

No question, no doubt, no argument, no brainer...


Yao Ming is the best center in the NBA NOW.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

beamer05 said:


> Yao Ming is never going to be better than Shaquille O'neal. Sure, he may put up better numbers this year than Shaq and the next couple years after that but what would that prove? Nothing. No one can convince me that Yao's impact is greater on the game than Shaq's. Do you think D. Wade would have been 'the next jordan' without Shaq on that team? Or that Antoine would get any open 3's to go along with his sometimes forced 3's? There's no way that Yao would have been able to do that. Sure, he will be great. He will put up better numbers than Shaq in the next couple years but that doesn't mean he's better. I'm just trying to stay on topic without *edit* don't insult another poster. Yao will be great, maybe top a 7-8 center of all time when his career is over- but his overall impact on the game and dominance will come nowhere near Shaquille O'neals. Oh, Bronx PM me if you want to continue whatever it is you're trying to continue. I'm done rambling for now.


Ummm.. wait, what? Let's review:




> Yao Ming is never going to be better than Shaquille O'neal.


OK, easy to understand, though it is already wrong...



> Sure, he may put up better numbers this year than Shaq and the next couple years after that but what would that prove? Nothing.


Your logic astounds me.


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## chn353 (Mar 12, 2006)

heat fans will blame antoine walker. :biggrin:


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Shaq staying classy.


Shaq: 6-14 FG, 3-9 FT
*''He's pretty much the same, just big, 7-6,'' O'Neal said. ''He's just doing what he's supposed to do.''


*Yao: 11-19 FG, 12-13 FT
*"Every time I score on him I was happy like a kid, like a kid getting candy on Halloween because it's really too hard to score on him, too hard. He's just great.''
**

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/recaps/2006/11/12/20689_recap.html


*


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

I like Yao, because he has fun with the game. We need to see more of this...


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

When Yao is being aggressive and his teammates are actually utilizing him, he dominates. He is too big, too good of a passer, and too good in the post to stop. Regardless of the constant abuse he receives and the unwillingness of the refs to enforce the ruels, he is still dominating. McGrady is playing like **** but Houston is winning games. Why? Because Yao is dominant. 

These two are no longer comparable. Shaq's career obviously dwarfs Yao's, but the guard has no changed at the center position and it is time for everybody to admit it.


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

Dammit, I just watched the highlights from Sportsnet, is Yao even scared of Shaq?


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## thacarter (Mar 27, 2006)

4BiddenKnight said:


> Dammit, I just watched the highlights from Sportsnet, is Yao even scared of Shaq?


not anymore he aint...i just dont get why Nets always gotta double Old Shaq :curse:


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

unluckyseventeen said:


> Ummm.. wait, what? Let's review:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, bringing up **** said almost two months ago.. great for you, I'm glad you have the time to read through all of this and respond. Sure Yao had a better night... but Shaq is injured and shouldn't be playing... That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. [I'm being sarcastic for all you Shaq-haters and people that hate me because I like Shaq so there will be no need to respond back to this post.] 

Do not attack other posters.

~Shu


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Mr. Predictable said:


> Shaq staying classy.
> 
> 
> Shaq: 6-14 FG, 3-9 FT
> ...


How could anyone ever hate Yao?


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

thacarter said:


> not anymore he aint...i just dont get why Nets always gotta double Old Shaq :curse:


 
Because Cliff, and Collins are scrubs!?!?!?!

just a guess...



:angel:


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

*


Zero Hero said:



How could anyone ever hate Yao?

Click to expand...

* 
Wow, Shaq giving Yao respect, that's something right there.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Dee-Zy said:


> Because Cliff, and Collins are scrubs!?!?!?!
> 
> just a guess...
> 
> ...


 :laugh: :clap:


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

I wonder if Stephen A. Smith is contemplating suicide right now.


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## LeroyJames (Aug 22, 2004)

4BiddenKnight said:


> *
> *
> Wow, Shaq giving Yao respect, that's something right there.


Read Shaq's quote again, no way is that a compliment! Looks like Shaq is not too happy about getting owned on national TV! lol


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> I wonder if Stephen A. Smith is contemplating suicide right now.


Like certain posters on this forum, people can't live to see things change. So when it is quite obvious that they were wrong, they utilize pathetic little defense mechanisms such as sarcasm (when there is no apparent reason to) and personal attacks.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

It seems last night Shaq's "influence beyond stats" had no value.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

ralaw said:


> It seems last night Shaq's "influence beyond stats" had no value.


lol


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

I hate how Shaq gives Yao no credit whatsoever and dismisses his performance as something he should do. 

When did dropping 34 points on Shaq become regular? Shaq should learn to give more props. 

Present

Yao > Dwight Howards > Shaq.........


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

bronx43 said:


> Like certain posters on this forum, people can't live to see things change. So when it is quite obvious that they were wrong, they utilize pathetic little defense mechanisms such as sarcasm (when there is no apparent reason to) and personal attacks.



Gee I wonder who you could be talking about. 1. I don't believe I was wrong. Yao has one great game to Shaq's subpar game- he must be the best center ever. I see threads started based one one game, or 10 games into the season proclaiming so and so is the best, or this team is great and it makes me laugh. So are we to believe the 76ers are going to win it all, and the Heat won't even make the playoffs based on 10 games? Give me a break, it's early. Yao had a great game, Shaq didn't. How does any of that prove Yao is the best, or that Howard is better than Shaq too? 
2. So you don't post anything slightly sarcastic in nature? You weren't sarcastic at all in your pulling up my post from about two months ago saying "your logic astounds me"? I guess I'm the only sarcastic mother ****er in here, and you're not. 3. The personal attack was a mispelling. Apparently my spanish isn't quite up to par. Sure, Yao is great.. Shaq is declining. But, at the end of the day, I'm going to take the proven player- Shaq, obviously- over the unproven player. Yao has plenty more years to possibly win as much as Shaq but for now I'm going with the man who is 4/5 in the finals, with 3 finals mvp's. But that's just what I think.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

ralaw said:


> It seems last night Shaq's "influence beyond stats" had no value.


Shouldnt Super Wade have won the game for them. After all he doesnt need Shaq to be successful :laugh:


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## shoprite (Dec 18, 2002)

beamer05 said:


> Gee I wonder who you could be talking about. 1. I don't believe I was wrong. Yao has one great game to Shaq's subpar game- he must be the best center ever. I see threads started based one one game, or 10 games into the season proclaiming so and so is the best, or this team is great and it makes me laugh. So are we to believe the 76ers are going to win it all, and the Heat won't even make the playoffs based on 10 games? Give me a break, it's early. Yao had a great game, Shaq didn't. How does any of that prove Yao is the best, or that Howard is better than Shaq too?
> 2. So you don't post anything slightly sarcastic in nature? You weren't sarcastic at all in your pulling up my post from about two months ago saying "your logic astounds me"? I guess I'm the only sarcastic mother ****er in here, and you're not. 3. The personal attack was a mispelling. Apparently my spanish isn't quite up to par. Sure, Yao is great.. Shaq is declining. But, at the end of the day, I'm going to take the proven player- Shaq, obviously- over the unproven player. Yao has plenty more years to possibly win as much as Shaq but for now I'm going with the man who is 4/5 in the finals, with 3 finals mvp's. But that's just what I think.


1. It's been a while since last year, not just 10 games. "great games" have become Yao's normal, "sub-par" games have become Shaq's normal.
2. Time changes. Wonder if you'd take Robert Horry or 40 year old Jordan over 22 year old Lebron. They proved more with 6 rings each. Jordan had 5 regular season mvp, 6/6 in finals and 6 final mvps.
3. It seems you are in denial mode. Of course you would say totally different things if Yao and Shaq switch teams.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

beamer05 said:


> Gee I wonder who you could be talking about. 1. I don't believe I was wrong. Yao has one great game to Shaq's subpar game- he must be the best center ever. I see threads started based one one game, or 10 games into the season proclaiming so and so is the best, or this team is great and it makes me laugh. So are we to believe the 76ers are going to win it all, and the Heat won't even make the playoffs based on 10 games? Give me a break, it's early. Yao had a great game, Shaq didn't. How does any of that prove Yao is the best, or that Howard is better than Shaq too?
> 2. So you don't post anything slightly sarcastic in nature? You weren't sarcastic at all in your pulling up my post from about two months ago saying "your logic astounds me"? I guess I'm the only sarcastic mother ****er in here, and you're not. 3. The personal attack was a mispelling. Apparently my spanish isn't quite up to par. Sure, Yao is great.. Shaq is declining. But, at the end of the day, I'm going to take the proven player- Shaq, obviously- over the unproven player. Yao has plenty more years to possibly win as much as Shaq but for now I'm going with the man who is 4/5 in the finals, with 3 finals mvp's. But that's just what I think.


First off, when did I ever say "your logic astounds me?" I would never make that comment simply because I believe you don't employ logic whatsoever. I didn't see exactly what you posted, but a moderator deleted and replaced it with a warning. 
Sunday night's performance was not a singular impressive game amidst terrible ones. He destroyed Eddy Curry the night before and is averaging 27.3/10 for the seven games that they have played. Also, remember that the second half of last season, he averaged 25.7/11. Therefore, it is safe to assume that Yao Ming is a changed and dramatically improved player. I understand that Shaq is proven, but his dominance was in the past. From what I've seen of Shaq, he is a shadow of his younger days. His stamina has drastically deproved and he is becoming more and more foul-prone. Sure, one game doesn't PROVE anything. However, it adds to the building list of supporting evidence that Yao has already overtaken Shaq. You're in a slim minority to believe otherwise.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

shoprite said:


> 1. It's been a while since last year, not just 10 games. "great games" have become Yao's normal, "sub-par" games have become Shaq's normal.
> 2. Time changes. Wonder if you'd take Robert Horry or 40 year old Jordan over 22 year old Lebron. They proved more with 6 rings each. Jordan had 5 regular season mvp, 6/6 in finals and 6 final mvps.
> 3. It seems you are in denial mode. Of course you would say totally different things if Yao and Shaq switch teams.


"Times change."
Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

beamer05 said:


> Sure, Yao is great.. Shaq is declining. But, at the end of the day, I'm going to take the proven player- Shaq, obviously


You mean, at the end of the day you're going to take the Heat player, right?



> Yao has plenty more years to possibly win as much as Shaq but for now I'm going with the man who is 4/5 in the finals, with 3 finals mvp's.


Same old strawman. No one's saying Yao's career is as good or better than Shaq's career. The argument is which player is better right now, and it's pretty clear that Yao is better NOW. And no, not just based on one game, but based on last season and the early results from this season. Yao owning Shaq is just one more data point.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Yao looked great last night. Very impressive. This could very well be the year he supplants Shaq. For those of you who think he did so last year, I saw this stat up on the screen during Friday night's Nets game... Heat w/ Shaq last year... 42-17, 101.7 PPG, 49% FG. Heat wo/ Shaq last year... 10-13, 95.1 PPG, 45% FG. Great Centers lift their teams. We saw what Yao did last year (no lift). We'll see what Yao does during the course of this year.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

I just dont understand why Heat fans are blind to the fact that Shaq is washed up, eating 20 mill for the next 4 years and wont give Yao any credit. I mean, are they simply in denial? 

Shaq didnt win the title for you, Wade did. Accept it


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

OneBadLT123 said:


> I just dont understand why Heat fans are blind to the fact that Shaq is washed up, eating 20 mill for the next 4 years and wont give Yao any credit. I mean, are they simply in denial?
> 
> Shaq didnt win the title for you, Wade did. Accept it


If you are wondering why Heat fans and people that understand NBA basketball don't buy into your theory, take a look at the team stats I posted above.


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## shoprite (Dec 18, 2002)

OneBadLT123 said:


> I just dont understand why Heat fans are blind to the fact that Shaq is washed up, eating 20 mill for the next 4 years and wont give Yao any credit. I mean, are they simply in denial?
> 
> Shaq didnt win the title for you, Wade did. Accept it


Although I believe Yao is the best center right now, Shaq is by no means washed up. He does affect the outcome just like Yao does. Wade alone wouldn't have won Championship for Heat. Just ask Kobe, Tmac and AI.


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## dk1115 (Aug 27, 2004)

Just pray that Bruce Bowen does not guard Yao for some odd reason, and then "foot under you" defend him. Or, they can have Yao not jump when he shoots.


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## shoprite (Dec 18, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Yao looked great last night. Very impressive. This could very well be the year he supplants Shaq. For those of you who think he did so last year, I saw this stat up on the screen during Friday night's Nets game... Heat w/ Shaq last year... 42-17, 101.7 PPG, 49% FG. Heat wo/ Shaq last year... 10-13, 95.1 PPG, 45% FG. Great Centers lift their teams. We saw what Yao did last year (no lift). We'll see what Yao does during the course of this year.


Last year Rox was 27-30 (47% winning percentage) when Yao played, 7-18(28% winning percentage) when Yao didn't play. Just because Yao had worse teammates doesn't mean Yao didn't lift his team.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

shoprite said:


> Last year Rox was 27-30 (47% winning percentage) when Yao played, 7-18(28% winning percentage) when Yao didn't play. Just because Yao had worse teammates doesn't mean Yao didn't lift his team.


Fair enough. But that series of games where TMac was out and Yao was putting up great numbers was just terrible for the team.


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## durvasa (Nov 16, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Yao looked great last night. Very impressive. This could very well be the year he supplants Shaq. For those of you who think he did so last year, I saw this stat up on the screen during Friday night's Nets game... Heat w/ Shaq last year... 42-17, 101.7 PPG, 49% FG. Heat wo/ Shaq last year... 10-13, 95.1 PPG, 45% FG. Great Centers lift their teams. We saw what Yao did last year (no lift). We'll see what Yao does during the course of this year.


You neglect to point out that when Shaq was on the court, he also had Dwyane Wade next to him. Many of the games Yao played, McGrady did not. With Yao and McGrady, the Rockets were 21-10. Without Yao, but with McGrady, the Rockets were 4-10. Wouldn't you say that's a more fair comparison?

But let's look at the numbers a little deeper. 82games.com shows Net point differential when a player is on the court versus when they are not on the court. For Shaq last year, the Heat were +4.4 points per 100 possessions with Shaq on the floor versus off the floor. For Yao, the Rockets were +6.8 with Yao on the floor versus off the floor. 

So, even based on impact on the team winning, there isn't much evidence to say Shaq was better than Yao last year.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

durvasa said:


> You neglect to point out that when Shaq was on the court, he also had Dwyane Wade next to him. Most of the games Yao played, McGrady did not. With Yao and McGrady, the Rockets were 21-10. Without Yao, but with McGrady, the Rockets were 4-10. Wouldn't you say that's a more fair comparison?
> 
> But let's look at the numbers a little deeper. 82games.com shows Net point differential when a player is on the court versus when they are not on the court. For Shaq last year, the Heat were +4.4 points per 100 possessions with Shaq on the floor versus off the floor. For Yao, the Rockets were +6.8 with Yao on the floor versus off the floor.
> 
> So, even based on impact on the team winning, there isn't much evidence to say Shaq was better than Yao last year.


Though I don't expect you to acknowledge this, Shaq's influence on the game goes beyond the time when he is on the court. I'm not going to bother to go into details.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

*Jim Rome on Shaq's quote*



> Basically Rome was imitating Shaq on his quote about "He's pretty much the same, 7-6, doing what hes supposed to do." and saying you got your head handed to you, man up and give props to Yao. He stated that instead of his kid on Halloween bit, Yao shouldve said something along the likes of "Yea Shaq was pretty much the same, doing what hes supposed to do, which is get rolled by me."


...


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Though I don't expect you to acknowledge this, Shaq's influence on the game goes beyond the time when he is on the court. *I'm not going to bother to go into details*.


Please do, and while you're at it, expand on this as well:



SeaNet said:


> Fair enough. But that series of games where TMac was out and Yao was putting up great numbers was just terrible for the team.


Thanks!


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Mr. Predictable said:


> Please do, and while you're at it, expand on this as well:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!


 i dont really see how you intend on arguing with someone who lives in his own fantasy world.


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## durvasa (Nov 16, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Though I don't expect you to acknowledge this, Shaq's influence on the game goes beyond the time when he is on the court. I'm not going to bother to go into details.


Right ... you can say the same thing about Yao Ming. I won't bother going into details.

BTW, it's also instructive to look at how the Heat did last year with Shaq but without Wade on the court. They were -4.1 points per 48 minutes. 

And how were the Rockets last year with Yao but not McGrady on the court? The point differential was 0. And that was despite the fact Yao had a much worse supporting cast.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> You mean, at the end of the day you're going to take the Heat player, right?
> 
> 
> 
> Same old strawman. No one's saying Yao's career is as good or better than Shaq's career. The argument is which player is better right now, and it's pretty clear that Yao is better NOW. And no, not just based on one game, but based on last season and the early results from this season. Yao owning Shaq is just one more data point.



Why you using them big fancy words?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Yao might be the best player in the league this year. The positional value is obviously greater for Yao, since there are a million good perimeter players and very few good centers. Not only that, but his offensive efficiency is top notch. He is not only scoring at a high clip, but is drawing attention and creating great shots for others. As long as he is doing that, he is just as valuable on offense as anyone in the league, plus he is a more valuable defensive player than those considered the best players in the league (outside of Duncan and Garnett).

The only thing keeping him from with the pack (top 10, arguably top 5) and not the best player in the league without question is the fact that he just can't play heavy minutes. If he could play as many minutes as LeBron or Kobe, we'd be looking at a 30/13 type player with a couple blocks and very strong defense, along with drawing defenses to create wide open shots for everyone else. That isn't the case though due to stamina.


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## spursindonesia (Mar 6, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Though I don't expect you to acknowledge this, Shaq's influence on the game goes beyond the time when he is on the court. I'm not going to bother to go into details.


Are you saying that Shaq has some sort of supernatural ability, like a voodoo doctor, working his magic to cripple opponents from the bench or in front of TV during live game ? :laugh:


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Though I don't expect you to acknowledge this, Shaq's influence on the game goes beyond the time when he is on the court. I'm not going to bother to go into details.


And Yao's influence doesn't?


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

For those who said Wade carried the Heat, only somewhat. Shaq was the biggest factor in that series. The whole defensive plan was based on Shaq. He saw routine triple teams from 3 seven footers(Diop, Dampier, Nowitzki) and Wade had many acres of room to work with. Shaq creates ample space on the floor for him to work with, because he's Shaq. He is a leader in every sense of basketball. He makes everyone around him better.

Yao is only now coming in to his own. So far this season he has carried the team. He is making other teammates better, he is starting to have the impact that Shaq has, but not on his level yet, even now. T-Mac also gets Yao plenty good looks even though he is not shooting well. Yao's numbers are going to be clearly superior to Shaq, but Shaq's impact for at least this year will be no less than equal to Yao's at seasons end.

Right now I would take Yao. I would also favor Houston to take out the Heat in a 7 game series 4-1. But I'm not bringing down Shaq. He is still the biggest factor on the court.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

beamer05 said:


> Wow, bringing up **** said almost two months ago.. great for you, I'm glad you have the time to read through all of this and respond. Sure Yao had a better night... but Shaq is injured and shouldn't be playing... That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. [I'm being sarcastic for all you Shaq-haters and people that hate me because I like Shaq so there will be no need to respond back to this post.]
> 
> Do not attack other posters.
> 
> ~Shu


What does it matter if it's two months ago? Right now Yao is the better player. There's not even a comparison for most people.

The fact was, you said that "Sure, Yao will put up better numbers, but Shaq is better than him"...

How in hell does that make sense? Or... are you just getting mad because you're a Heat fan and can't face the fact that Shaq is declining?


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

unluckyseventeen said:


> What does it matter if it's two months ago? Right now Yao is the better player. There's not even a comparison for most people.
> 
> The fact was, you said that "Sure, Yao will put up better numbers, but Shaq is better than him"...
> 
> How in hell does that make sense? Or... are you just getting mad because you're a Heat fan and can't face the fact that Shaq is declining?



I've said that Shaq is declining.. he has nowhere to go but down based on the monster numbers he put up earlier in his career. No, I'm not mad at all though. Shaq is still the better player, that's my *opinion*.. how the hell doesn't that make sense to you?


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

What?

You know... I've said it twice now. You said Yao is going to put up better numbers than O'Neal this season, next season... and you continued on. You then finished the statement with "But, O'Neal is a better player".

How exactly does that work?


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

unluckyseventeen said:


> What?
> 
> You know... I've said it twice now. You said Yao is going to put up better numbers than O'Neal this season, next season... and you continued on. You then finished the statement with "But, O'Neal is a better player".
> 
> How exactly does that work?


So numbers are the determining factor of everything now? Sure, Yao had a great game against Shaq and his numbers may end up being better but would that make the automatically the better player? There are intangibles to be taken into account, in my opinion. So, yes Yao can put up better numbers but Shaq can be a better overall player based on other factors- if Jamal Crawford ends up averging more ppg this year than Kobe are you going to take him over Kobe?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

beamer05 said:


> if Jamal Crawford ends up averging more ppg this year than Kobe are you going to take him over Kobe?


If Jamal Crawford had better overall numbers (scoring isn't the only relevant statistic) and played superior defense, yes, I'd say he was better than Kobe for as long as that were true.


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

beamer05 said:


> So numbers are the determining factor of everything now? Sure, Yao had a great game against Shaq and his numbers may end up being better but would that make the automatically the better player? There are intangibles to be taken into account, in my opinion. So, yes Yao can put up better numbers but Shaq can be a better overall player based on other factors- if Jamal Crawford ends up averging more ppg this year than Kobe are you going to take him over Kobe?



It's more than just PPG though. It's minutes per game, points per game, field goal percentage, free throw shooting, rebounding, assists, blocks, efficiency ratings, Roland ratings, +/- ratings, etc. 

Last year I think Shaq was still the better player, mabe less so at the end of the season. But now Yao has caught up based on what we've seen so far. It's too early to judge, but we can only judge based on what we've seen so far.


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## Raxel (Nov 10, 2004)

Yao is better than O'Neal now, but I just don't see Yao can put up 30/13 as Shaq did in his prime years.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

beamer05 said:


> So numbers are the determining factor of everything now? Sure, Yao had a great game against Shaq and his numbers may end up being better but would that make the automatically the better player? There are intangibles to be taken into account, in my opinion. So, yes Yao can put up better numbers but Shaq can be a better overall player based on other factors- if Jamal Crawford ends up averging more ppg this year than Kobe are you going to take him over Kobe?


Let the guy continue deluding himself. Unnecessary. 


*Wait, are you kidding me? You deleted the less offensive of the two sentences? I was merely stating a fact that certain individuals refuse to believe in very obvious occurences.  

~Shu


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Raxel said:


> Yao is better than O'Neal now, but I just don't see Yao can put up 30/13 as Shaq did in his prime years.


Shaq never averaged 30 PPG nor did he average 13 RPG through his prime. He was closer to 27/11 during his prime. Yao has a chance to reach those numbers in his prime, especially when you consider that he shoots free throws much better than Shaq does/did.


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## Auggie (Mar 7, 2004)

hope he keeps it up.. i love yao, hes tha man :clap: :cheers:


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

Yeah... the question now is who's the second best center, because no one is even close to Yao.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

I think Yao can hold his offensive ability to where it is now. However, he's always been a disappointing rebounder, and I'm not buying that he's become a great rebounder over the summer. I think he'll drop off in that category.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

beamer05 said:


> So numbers are the determining factor of everything now? Sure, Yao had a great game against Shaq and his numbers may end up being better but would that make the automatically the better player? There are intangibles to be taken into account, in my opinion. So, yes Yao can put up better numbers but Shaq can be a better overall player based on other factors- if Jamal Crawford ends up averging more ppg this year than Kobe are you going to take him over Kobe?


So, wait...

If Yao continues on his averages:

27.3 PPG, 10.0 RPG, 2.0 BPG

and if Shaq continues on his averages:

14.7 PPG, 7.5 RPG, 1.3 BPG

You are going to make an argument that O'Neal is clearly the better player?

No amount of intangibles can make up for a monstrous 13 PPG scoring difference, especially when both of them play the same style of basketball - Get close to the hoop, back his man down, score.

Not to mention Yao shoots better free throws, has a much better shooting touch from 7+ feet, whereas I'm convinced Shaq is completely ineffective from 7 feet out. Yao also is a better defender at this stage, Shaq shoots 45% for a center (atrocious)... Yao is at a blistering 59% from the field, as well as 88% from the line, and Yao plays only 4 more minutes.

Not to mention that with as much "attention" as Shaq draws to himself, their assists per 48 minutes are identical. So, the fact of the matter is, they play the same style, Yao is better by far in every category, and Shaq is either playing like he doesn't care, or he is steadily on the decline of his career.


Name the intangibles that make up for that.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Mateo said:


> I think Yao can hold his offensive ability to where it is now. However, he's always been a disappointing rebounder, and I'm not buying that he's become a great rebounder over the summer. I think he'll drop off in that category.


Yao's rebounding was at a similar level over the second half of last year.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

I think Yao will get to about 16 rebounds per game in his prime. Go ahead attack me for that, but I was seeing him scoring like this before others did too.

The only thing I think will stay about where it is, would be his shot blocking numbers, his assists will go up as well.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> *I think Yao will get to about 16 rebounds per game in his prime. Go ahead attack me for that, but I was seeing him scoring like this before others did too.*
> 
> The only thing I think will stay about where it is, would be his shot blocking numbers, his assists will go up as well.


For Yao, scoring is easier than rebounding.

He will never average close to 16rpg in a season.

Book it.


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## chn353 (Mar 12, 2006)

agreed. yao's not that great of a rebounder. his shooting touch is impressive though

yao has surpassed shaq, anyone who doesnt see this unnecessary.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

chn353 said:


> agreed. yao's not that great of a rebounder. his shooting touch is impressive though
> 
> *yao has surpassed shaq, anyone who doesnt see this * unnecessary.


You know, it's hard to let go of one's memories...

I saw that phenomena with the Wizard's Michael Jordan: everyone seemed to think he could still carry a team to the Finals...

A dominant Shaq is still fresh in our memories... But to say that Shaquille O'Neal, THIS SEASON, is comparable at the least with the production that Yao has been showing is, well, denial...


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

I think media guys continue to say this because they know Shaq personally, and even though it's their job to be objective, it's still difficult for people to put personal relationships aside, especially when it means being critical about a friend. Shaq's such a loveable guy and great with the media. Yao is more mild mannered, so they probably don't know him as well.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Mateo said:


> I think media guys continue to say this because they know Shaq personally, and even though it's their job to be objective, it's still difficult for people to put personal relationships aside, especially when it means being critical about a friend. Shaq's such a loveable guy and great with the media. Yao is more mild mannered, so they probably don't know him as well.


I think your telling the truth. In order to give Shaq credit people tend to use the argument, _"I'll take Yao for the regular season and Shaq for the playoffs"_ and this can't be anymore foolish, as whatever contribution Shaq can make in the playoffs can easily be duplicated by Yao. It's time people face the fact that Shaq is no longer the "baddest bigman in the NBA".


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> For Yao, scoring is easier than rebounding.
> 
> He will never average close to 16rpg in a season.
> 
> Book it.



99 percent of people would have said this two years ago when I told people I thought he would average 30 in a season at his prime, that's already possibly if not more going to happen this year.

Believe me, 16 rebounds is well within what his prime ability will be.

It's actually a conservative estimate.

Yao right now is every bit as good as Kareem was in his early 30s.

I've been watching him on the boards, as soon as he gets in game shape, he is at about 12 a game against double and triple teams, but if T-Mac is playing well (he's not now) or just in general his teamates are hitting shots and playing well, then Yao is consistently getting 15-16 rebounds.

18 rebounds is probably actually what is his maximum potential, but I think 16 is more about what that Houston system will allow based on amount of rebound chances.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> *18 rebounds is probably actually what is his maximum potential, * but I think 16 is more about what that Houston system will allow based on amount of rebound chances.


You DO know that the last guy to do it (or close to it, i can't remember) only focused on rebounding and defense, don't you? That guy being Dennis Rodman, off course.

Yao will never be a rebounding spetialist. and it would take won to get 18rpg. Even Ben Wallace, who is of no value on offense, didn't came close...


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## shoprite (Dec 18, 2002)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> 99 percent of people would have said this two years ago when I told people I thought he would average 30 in a season at his prime, that's already possibly if not more going to happen this year.
> 
> Believe me, 16 rebounds is well within what his prime ability will be.


Yao lacks of quickness and explosiveness because of his size, which are curcial to rebouding. Those things can't be trained just like height.

Yao won't get 16 rebounds per game unless there is significant rule change which in favor of big guys.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> You DO know that the last guy to do it (or close to it, i can't remember) only focused on rebounding and defense, don't you? That guy being Dennis Rodman, off course.
> 
> Yao will never be a rebounding spetialist. and it would take won to get 18rpg. Even Ben Wallace, who is of no value on offense, didn't came close...



First I said in his system he would get 16. So that's not really relevant.

Secondly, you are failing to REALLY watch Yao's chances for the rebound.

The only reasons Yao fails to get 15 to 20 on any given night are foul trouble, allowing teamates to grab boards that he tips directly down to them (rather than grab themm all like Rodman would have) and when he is in poor shape and we see him struggle to play 35 minutes in good condition.


If you actually look at how many rebounds he literally has right there every night it IS 15 to 20.

Believe me, Yao is going to lead the league in rebounding very soon.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

They'd have to make a new rule where every center starts out with 5 rebounds before the game starts for Yao to average 16 a game.


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## shoprite (Dec 18, 2002)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> First I said in his system he would get 16. So that's not really relevant.
> 
> Secondly, you are failing to REALLY watch Yao's chances for the rebound.
> 
> ...


You are assuming Yao chould get all the rebounds in sight. Reality is he can't get some of those because he doesn't have the quickness and explosiveness.

Just like when you see somebody makes a 3 pointer, you can't make an assumption that he can make all of his 3 pointers, even though he might on a particular night.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

shoprite said:


> Yao lacks of quickness and explosiveness because of his size, which are curcial to rebouding. Those things can't be trained just like height.
> 
> Yao won't get 16 rebounds per game unless there is significant rule change which in favor of big guys.



Like I said, count how many boards are right there for him in a typical game.

he's just beginning to master the rebound facet of his game, which is based much MORE on oppurtinity, timing, effort, technique, positioning, and balls within your grasp than it is on speed and quickness.

Kareem and Moses didn't get rebounds on speed and quickness and no one playing in recent years was even close to being the rebounder they were. The major difference is they had quicker pace and more possessions, but Yao needs it slower and is much bigger and much stronger.

Yao definitely can get about 15-16 a season, the rebounds are right there for him.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

shoprite said:


> You are assuming Yao chould get all the rebounds in sight. Reality is he can't get some of those because he doesn't have the quickness and explosiveness.
> 
> Just like when you see somebody makes a 3 pointer, you can't make an assumption that he can make all of his 3 pointers.


No I am saying that he probably could at full capacity get 18 out of say 20 chances, but that 15-16 out of 20 chances is what he SHOULD end up at once his entire being as a player maximizes.


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## shoprite (Dec 18, 2002)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> Like I said, count how many boards are right there for him in a typical game.
> 
> he's just beginning to master the rebound facet of his game, which is based much MORE on oppurtinity, timing, effort, technique, positioning, and balls within your grasp than it is on speed and quickness.
> 
> ...


Again, can doesn't mean will. Yao showed his high scoring potential even when he didn't score alot, but not that much of rebounding potential.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

shoprite said:


> Again, can doesn't mean will. Yao showed his high scoring potential even when he didn't score alot, but not that much of rebounding potential.


Alright I don't want an argument. I am just saying that Yao is rapidly improving on the boards, and obviously his scoring is overshadowing a lot of people from even noticing it.


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## shoprite (Dec 18, 2002)

delete


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## Raxel (Nov 10, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Shaq never averaged 30 PPG nor did he average 13 RPG through his prime. He was closer to 27/11 during his prime. Yao has a chance to reach those numbers in his prime, especially when you consider that he shoots free throws much better than Shaq does/did.



http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/847/career;_ylt=Ah13v4NSpfQn4N3xv1qkxASkvLYF

1993-94 ORL 81 39:47 29.4/13.2
1999-00 LAL 79 40:00 29.7/13.7

Can I call these 30/13 ???


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Raxel said:


> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/847/career;_ylt=Ah13v4NSpfQn4N3xv1qkxASkvLYF
> 
> 1993-94 ORL 81 39:47 29.4/13.2
> 1999-00 LAL 79 40:00 29.7/13.7
> ...


Sure you can. I said he didn't average 13 RPG _through his prime._ 13+ RPG were his two best years (6 years apart) not his prime level.

As I said, his prime level was closer to 27/11.

If you meant Yao won't reach Shaq's career bests, that's fine. "Prime," IMO, is usually used to mean the best stretch of years, not the career highs.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

beamer05 said:


> - if Jamal Crawford ends up averging more ppg this year than Kobe are you going to take him over Kobe?


If I get signed and put up more ppg than Kobe, then I'll take me over Kobe.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Mateo said:


> Yeah... the question now is who's the second best center, because no one is even close to Yao.


Erick Dampier.


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