# José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors (merged)



## Unknownone (May 14, 2005)

*José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*

Queried about this in SAC's thread, but thought I might get more coverage here (credit for links to Genjuro @ Real GM) -

(In Spanish
http://www.as.com/articulo.html?d_date=20050717&xref=20050717dasdaibal_1&type=Tes&anchor=dasbal

http://draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=105
http://draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=173

http://www.acb.com/video/200405_J22_tauceramica.avi
http://www.acb.com/video/copa2005_cf_tauceramica.avi
http://www.acb.com/video/200405_J13_calderon.avi
http://www.acb.com/video/200405_J10_calderon.avi

If this means showin' Rafer the door, I'm all for it... Next up: Rose, Aaron Williams, Eric Williams, Lamond Murray...


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*

Translated link

http://translate.google.com/transla...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=/language_tools


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*

translation is bad but here is the jist of it



> According to our information, the international player aims clearly towards Toronto Raptors. Tau has produced several players of the NBA, but the one that satisfies him more she is the one of the Canadian Club. His representative, Alpaca Lopez, admitted yesterday: <b>"Until the day the 22 of July</b> NBA does not speak of contracts, reason why we must be discreet.
> 
> In any case, we and the own player think that already he is prepared to give the jump and to play in the NBA ". The last year already rejected an offer of Mil*wakee Bucks.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*

Jose Manuel Calderón

Height/Weight: 190cm (6'2¾")/92.1kg (203#)
Birthdate: September 28, 1981 
Team: Tau Ceramica (Spain)

http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/CalderonJoseManuel.html



> Scouting reports indicate he has good floor vision and handle for the point guard position. Has worked to become a better long-range shooter, but has an excellent first step and adept at penetrating into lane for shot or pass.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*

VERY interesting. I think this probably signals that Cook won't be making the team rather than Skip is being shipped out but you never know what the future holds. Also, we could be seeing a lot more lineups containing two point player-types. Anyways, it might not be true but it's nice that Babcock is out there working from many different angles. He's said that he wants more of a european feel to the way we play and a couple of euro point guards would be a good start. seems like another guy that badly wants to fulfill his potential.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*

Rob says he wants a third point guard, so this guy could be him. Cook has been playing alright in the SPL but the kid just can't shoot. We'll have to wait and see on that.

Rob's supposedly been spending 5+ hours a day on the phones with other teams and agents and whatnot, trying to see what he can do to manipulate this roster further. I think one thing everyone here can agree on is that we aren't ready for the season as is. Lots of work to be done yet.


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*

Im glad Babcock is looking at international players but if we sign another pg what does that mean for cook and do we really want 2 international pg's fighting for minutes in their first year. The kid looks good thou but it could be bad timing. Does this mean Babcock plans on putting Ukic more as a sg than a pg?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*

BTW, thanks for those clips, Unknownone.

He has a funny release on his shot. Much like Bonner's, where he holds it out about a foot from his face and flicks it.

Also, I think we'd be the first team in the history of the NBA to have two European dunking point guards if we picked this guy up as well. Cool.


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*

Im hearing this kid has a 2 million dollar buyout clause.. so that will be interesting. Also with this signing does it mean that Altson will be shipped out?? Very interesting. If we can get rid of E.Wiliams, Arron Williams, L.Murray, as well as Alston bye bye Alston.


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*

This guy looks interesting. I personally am all for adding a European flavour to our team, especially with guys like Ukic and Calderon.

Only concern I have is that the descriptions of Calderon offered make him out to a shoot first PG... not what I think this team needs most. But he and Ukic might make quite the complementary backcourt duo methinks.

I'm starting to like what Babs is trying to do here...


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*



SkywalkerAC said:


> VERY interesting. I think this probably signals that Cook won't be making the team rather than Skip is being shipped out but you never know what the future holds. Also, we could be seeing a lot more lineups containing two point player-types.


I think you are dead on Skywalker Skip is gone or cook is gone - or alvin is being bought out - I am certain that they want to take 3 true pg.s in to camp to keep eachother sharp - last year skip took his minutes for granted and it was disaterous because when Sam sat him it was <b>Rose and Milt at the PG.</b>

needless to say they will not let the team be subject to that again.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*



> Originally posted by *McFurious !*
> 
> Does this mean Babcock plans on putting Ukic more as a sg than a pg?


I think Sam Mitchell would actually put Rafer at the 2 and Ukic at the 1, because Ukic has more natural PG skills than Rafer, and Rafer while a little small, could still play the off guard postion




> Originally posted by *SkywalkerAC !*
> 
> I think this probably signals that Cook won't be making the team rather than Skip is being shipped out


Rafer isn't going anywhere, but I have a feeling that Cook might still be a Raptor come October. Financially I don't know how they would do it while resigning Bonner and Sow, but they could create roster space by ridding Aaron Williams or Lammond Murrays contracts.

We are still weak at the SG postion, so having an extra PG, to allow Skip to play the 2 at times, might be the way the organization is going with this. I really don't know much about this Spanish guy, I don't know where he fits in.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*



TRON said:


> I think Sam Mitchell would actually put Rafer at the 2 and Ukic at the 1, because Ukic has more natural PG skills than Rafer, and Rafer while a little small, could still play the off guard postion
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Having Mo Pete, Jalen Rose, Joey Graham, Alvin Williams, and Roko Leni-Ukic is not all that weak at shooting guard.


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*

Interesting and ...odd... move. What does Calderon hope in/from Toronto? He was one of most hunted players here in Europe this offseason, teams were offering huge money and now hes signing for little money and in team in which he can even get DNPs. I think he really doesnt deserve that, but Ukic has much more hype and it also seems theres gonna be another PG in from of him.

Im not so high on Calderon as some people here, especially in Spain. But maybe I just was always unlucky to cacth his worser games. Anyway hes more ready than Ukic now, but this team should built on Ukic. So its interesting (and hard) situation.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*

^
Jalen Rose - ideally suited for the SF postion

Alvin Williams - is definetely a two guard, but will he even play this year????

Joey Graham - still developing guard skills, could pass for a SF but would strugggle at the SG positon this year

Roko - while he does have SG size, he is a pure PG and would be best suited at that postion

So, that leaves MoPete as the only player with SG skills (ball-handling, defence, penetrating, create own shot, good perimeter game) and while Mo is probably our best SG option, he still doesn't have a mid range game to talk about 

That's where, I believe Rafer comes in. Maybe the organization plans on playing him a bit more at the off guard more so he doesn't have worry as much about controling the team and passing, which Rafer clearly failed at last year

It's just a thought, especially with the rumour of this Spanish PG being signed and my own personal feeling that Cook will be retained for this upcoming year.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*

well i wouldnt be surprised to see Skip and Ukic playing side by side, Sam did do that alot with Skip and Pilacio, so that wouldnt be a big surprise


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*



charlz said:


> I think you are dead on Skywalker Skip is gone or cook is gone - or alvin is being bought out - I am certain that they want to take 3 true pg.s in to camp to keep eachother sharp - last year skip took his minutes for granted and it was disaterous because when Sam sat him it was <b>Rose and Milt at the PG.</b>
> 
> needless to say they will not let the team be subject to that again.


*I was thinking if Skip was to be sent out what would you say to this trade?*


*Houston trades*
Bob Sura

*Toronto trades*
Rafer Alston

Ukic/Calderon/Sura/Cook
Rose/Sura/Calderon
Mo-pete/Grahman/E.Willams
Bosh/CV/Sow
Hoffa/Sow/Woods


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*



McFurious said:


> *I was thinking if Skip was to be sent out what would you say to this trade?*
> 
> 
> *Houston trades*
> ...


Mr. Triple Double?

He's a good player. Having him split minutes between the guard positions could work. His contract isn't a big one, either.

I'm personally not ready to give up on Alston, though, and I don't think signing either or both of Ukic or Calderon is a sign that Alston's days are numbered.


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## Spyda (Jul 9, 2005)

*Raptors to sign 2nd best pg in europe!*

posted on espn:



> Jose Manuel Calderon is the proclaimed 2nd best pg in europe, hes 23, and has drawn a lot of interest from nba teams, but papers in Spain report that Toronto is very close to signing him(if you want the link and can speak spanish, here you go: http://www.as.com/articulo.html?d_date=20050717&xref=20050717dasdaibal_1&type=Tes&anchor=dasbal). Its not a done deal but again, toronto is the closest to signing him.
> 
> If this signing does happen, who knows, maybe a rafer deal is in the works. I like what babcock is doing stacking up on young talent, and this signing will only improve that. A PG duo that experienced already and that young(21 and 23 in roko and Jose) will be something to look forward to. It'll be interesting what happens with rafer if roko and jose's deals are signed.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

*Re: Raptors sign 2nd best pg in europe!*

Well nothing has been made official yet, so I wouldn't go that far. 
But it would be a great signing, no doubt.


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

*Re: Raptors to sign 2nd best pg in europe!*

Not offical yet but stilll very very interesting and he will be getting 2 million if he does sign not a buy out of 2 million. Had a spanish friend of mine read the article.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: José Manuel Calderón close to terms with Raptors?*



Zalgirinis said:


> Interesting and ...odd... move. What does Calderon hope in/from Toronto? He was one of most hunted players here in Europe this offseason, teams were offering huge money and now hes signing for little money and in team in which he can even get DNPs.


that is a damn good question....

they must have made him promises or making the team or something. Perhaps Rafer is gone already? if not something is iminent on or a little after the 22.


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## Markffd (Oct 20, 2002)

perhaps its all the fine *** chicas haha


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

I'm hoping this means Rafer is on his way out. A lot of you are saying that this means Cook will not be signed, but if we trade Rafer our backcourt is looking really interested. 

We could have a nice trio of point guards with Ukic, Calderon, and Cook. Each have a different style of play, and skills.. and love to run (not sure about Calderon)


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## AMR (Oct 5, 2003)

vigilante said:


> I'm hoping this means Rafer is on his way out. A lot of you are saying that this means Cook will not be signed, but if we trade Rafer our backcourt is looking really interested.
> 
> We could have a nice trio of point guards with Ukic, Calderon, and Cook. Each have a different style of play, and skills.. and love to run (not sure about Calderon)


Calderón loves to run. He isn't very European in his style of game.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

i don't see this signing as much as rafer's time in raptorland being up, but that it gives sam some more flexiblity to run a 2 point guard offense with either ukic and/or alvin sharing minutes at the off-guard position, which seems really weak at this point. (and keep in mind that alvin's health isn't a sure-thing at the moment)


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## Divine Spammer (Jul 11, 2005)

You know what? 
I'm not so sure this time. 

Spanish media reportes a lot of crap. 
For exmple they said Saras has signed a 2mil/euro contract with Barcelona (=100% ****).

However, I won't be upset if I see Calderon in TO.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> THE TORONTO Raptors may be on the verge of signing another one of Europe's top point guards.
> 
> The EITB website, along with several Spanish newspapers, says Jose Manuel Calderon, 24, who starred for TAU Ceramica of the Euroleague this past season, will leave Spain to play for the Raptors.
> 
> ...


http://torontosun.com/Sports/Basketball/2005/07/18/1136642-sun.html


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## JL2002 (Nov 30, 2003)

yeh, seems like now only European are the only bunch that will like Canada instead of the US....whereas almost 99% of the American hate Canada....


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## Divine Spammer (Jul 11, 2005)

I heard from Russian media that Calderon and the Raps agreed terms. Tau Vitoria will get 350K$ from the buyout.


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## Rameny (Mar 1, 2005)

I watched tham play (Ukic and Calderon)Ukic is already at this age much better than Calderon now,but it's ok to sign Calderon as backup.
If I was choosing Euro PG for my team I would definitely buy Igor Rakocevic , he is fast as hell (fester then Iverson) very atletik guy( 6-3 tall but very easy slams it ), very good shooter and ball passer ,excellent ball control , the best Euro PG of today.


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## Chris Bosh #4 (Feb 18, 2005)

How about we bring Rafer off the bench. IMO he can be a 6th man candidate, and he would excel as a 3 point specialist.


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Chris Bosh #4 said:


> How about we bring Rafer off the bench. IMO he can be a 6th man candidate, and he would excel as a 3 point specialist.


Who did you have in mind to start?

Roko? Calderon? As good a talent Roko is, and as handy a player Calderon looks and sounds like, neither are starting material at this point in time.

Like him or loathe him, Rafer is the best point guard we have on this list, and will probably remain so until we either sign or trade for another point guard, or wait until Roko finishes biding his time coming off the bench.

Rafer certainly has flaws in both his character and game, but if you're honest with yourself, you'll realise he isn't as bad a starter as some may think. He's had a year to become comfortable with the role and added responsibility that comes with it, and I'm sure he can continue to grow and mature in that role this upcoming season.

Your idea of him being a 6th man off the bench has some credibility, but I can't see that eventuating here for a little while yet.


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## Rameny (Mar 1, 2005)

Rhubarb said:


> Who did you have in mind to start?
> 
> Roko? Calderon? As good a talent Roko is, and as handy a player Calderon looks and sounds like, neither are starting material at this point in time.
> 
> ...


You obviously never seen Roko in action , you will be surprise when you see his star potenciel and he will be starter after few games on bench , he got no much experience to be starer in NBA at this time , in minwhile you got not so good Rafer as starter.


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Rameny said:


> You obviously never seen Roko in action , you will be surprise when you see his star potenciel and he will be starter after few games on bench , he got no much experience to be starer in NBA at this time , in minwhile you got not so good Rafer as starter.


I'll be honest when I say I haven't seen Roko in action. I've only the numerous scouting reports, reliable or not, and odd video clips to base his game upon; as I assume most people around here do.

I never doubted his star potential, but as far as my own viewpoint goes, I don't believe he's near ready to be a starter in the NBA, let alone play a solid 30 mins.

Having the skills to play the position is one thing, being able to actually step right in and play effectively for solid mins is another. IMHO, Roko isn't ready to be thrown in the deep end. He doesn't need to be either if we've got someone like Rafer already. Perhaps it would be fair to say you 'obviously haven't seen Rafer play'.


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## Boris (Jun 30, 2005)

Rafer is talented player but he isn't team player, and he's bad character player, and that is way underreated in North America.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Detroit is also reportedly intersted in Calderon.

However, I would assume that with Billups and Arroyo already on the team, along with Hunter, Calderon would be looking at a lot of DNP's in Detroit. Hopefully he wants to play badly enough that he'll go to a worse team.


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## AirBonner (May 28, 2005)

Rafer struggled with his decision making and his role on the Raptors last year. Neither of those things suprise me. He essentially played the way he played with miami last year - playing a disruptive style where he pushed the ball and took the offense into his own hands. Since this was what got him enough attention to get a starting pg spot in the first place it seemed to make sense for him to try and do the same thing in TO. The problem is that you need to play a different style of game as a starter and that is something he had to learn all year. 

I expect that with Roko and Calderon pushing him he will play much better team ball next year. That said, ppl tend to forget that Rafer was 12th in the league in assistspg.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

calderon still has to prove he can be an nba starter if he were to make the team in terms of how he does in the preseason. ukic as well. rafer's job as the starting point guard is for him to lose at this point despite how well both calderon and ukic have done in europe. rafer has shown his weaknesses that'd cost him the starting job, but they werere all exploited because people seen what he has done with that role. i bet if rafer stayed in miami for one more year and was signed to play his first season with the raptors this season, he'd be the odds on favourites to be the starting pg over ukic and calderon.

for some reason, i find ukic interchangle between pg and sg, much like how hinrich is being utilized in chicago. it wouldn't surprise me if he were to become the starting sg one day.


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

reading the article, it looks like we are the front runners for Jose Manuel Calderon's services. Detroit is at a close second ... I can see why he would wanna go there (championship caliber team), but also why he wouldn't go there (hard to get a spot over former finals mvp billups and backup pgs arroyo and hunter). 

The article also mentions Minny being there at 3rd .. and Milwaukee and Boston to be in the running, but less likely (4th, 5th destination). All of these 3 teams need a future point guard (cassell's in a contract year, tj ford is a question mark at present, payton is gone). 

Calderon is mentioned as one of the most desired international free agent prospects available.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Going to Toronto makes sense, they must know they're not gona get Ukic over here.

Contrary to reports, there hasn't been a signing yet, and I don't see Calderon going to Toronto or anywhere else to be the 3rd PG.

*Meanwhile, there were media reports in Croatia yesterday that the Raptors have agreed to terms with second-round draft pick Roko Ukic.

That would mean the Raptors have arranged to buy out Ukic's contract with his pro team overseas, in addition to negotiating a new pact with Ukic. He has a chance to fill a gaping hope at backup point guard next season if he's ready to play.

"We're talking, but nothing's done," Babcock said. "We're hopeful, but nothing has been solidified." *

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Basketball/NBA/Toronto/2005/07/15/1133102-sun.html


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## Raptorsfan2 (Jul 16, 2005)

arenas809,

Ukic is signed.Rob Babcock cannot anounce it yet but see links below.

http://www.todayonline.com/articles/61674.asp

http://www.kosarka.hr/main.asp?P=kutzaskaute&J=ENG

http://www.kosarka.hr/main.asp?P=vijest&J=ENG&vijestID=2226

http://www.eurobasket.com/cro/cro.asp

http://www.eurobasket.com/event/wcu18/wcjun03.asp
if you scroll down in this last link and at the game between Croatia and Malaysia you will read that Ukic broke the basket board in the last quarter of that game on an attempted dunk.

A sign for things to come.................................


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Raptorsfan2 said:


> arenas809,
> 
> Ukic is signed.Rob Babcock cannot anounce it yet but see links below.
> 
> ...


Believe what you want to believe...

Ronny Turiaf, C.J. Miles, Dijon Thompson, Lawerence Roberts (fellow 2nd round picks) , and a host of 1st round picks have already been announced officially as being signed, but Babcock can't announce he's signed Ukic? 

What sense does that make to you?

Calderon is a starter on of the best teams in the ACB League and he comes to a NBA team like the Raptors to be the 3rd point guard?

I stopped playing connect the dots games a long time ago, you figure this one out for yourself.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

^guy doesn't want us to get Jose because he knows it means lotto for the Pacers


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

ansoncarter said:


> ^guy doesn't want us to get Jose because he knows it means lotto for the Pacers


^Guy inhaled 50 cans of paint thinner before making that post.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

JL2002 said:


> yeh, seems like now only European are the only bunch that will like Canada instead of the US....whereas almost 99% of the American hate Canada....



that is not even close to being true - it is players who are from the south who struggle on any northern team (i.e. T-MAC would not even play in Chicago because "...it is 4 degrees in april....")

Plus no one want to play on any loosing team - that has cast a negative image on the team also.


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## Raptorsfan2 (Jul 16, 2005)

arenas809 said:


> Believe what you want to believe...
> 
> Ronny Turiaf, C.J. Miles, Dijon Thompson, Lawerence Roberts (fellow 2nd round picks) , and a host of 1st round picks have already been announced officially as being signed, but Babcock can't announce he's signed Ukic?
> 
> ...


All the guys you just mentioned are AMERICANS NOT EUROPEANS with pending contract buyouts.Ukic 's contract HAD TO BE BOUGHT OUT FIRST and then a new contract had to be agreed.The same with calderon.It takes time.If you read the reports out of SPAIN you will see that NBA teams CANNOT anounce free agent signings before July 22nd (now rumoured to be Aug 1st).
Ukic and Calderon are signining as FREE AGENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Their signing like all the other free agent signings reported all over the place if you PAY ATTENTION you will see that NONE are announced by the NBA TEAMS but by AGENTS.
Anyway will talk again ONCE IT IS officially announced.

see also link below:
http://www.eitb24.com/noticia_en.php?id=76239


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

^guy is sick of reading faulty logic on the internet and willing to CAPITALIZE YO' AZZZ!





(great post. Like the part where someone's idea got completely dismantled lol)


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## Rameny (Mar 1, 2005)

trick said:


> calderon still has to prove he can be an nba starter if he were to make the team in terms of how he does in the preseason. ukic as well. rafer's job as the starting point guard is for him to lose at this point despite how well both calderon and ukic have done in europe. rafer has shown his weaknesses that'd cost him the starting job, but they werere all exploited because people seen what he has done with that role. i bet if rafer stayed in miami for one more year and was signed to play his first season with the raptors this season, he'd be the odds on favourites to be the starting pg over ukic and calderon.
> 
> for some reason, i find ukic interchangle between pg and sg, much like how hinrich is being utilized in chicago. it wouldn't surprise me if he were to *become the starting sg* one day.


That's never gonna happen , he was PG all his carrier (not so big carrier , but he wasn't never SG) and he got everything to be star PG ,fest as hell , excellent passer ,very good shooter and his even 6-5 tall .


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

if he has star potential why did he go 41st? 

buyout might have been an issue, but 10 teams in the second round still passed on him


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## Rameny (Mar 1, 2005)

ansoncarter said:


> if he has star potential why did he go 41st?
> 
> buyout might have been an issue, but 10 teams in the second round still passed on him


Why ??? Becouse nobody from Nba dosen't really knows how good he is.....how good he could be ...And soon everybody gonna notice him... money wasn't a main problem .


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## Boris (Jun 30, 2005)

Because he is from Europ and people in the NBA are sceptic about PG from Europ special because there was big number of busts in last 2 or 3 years at PG like Planinic and Vujacic, and many teams don't need creativ PG like him because their atack goes trough their SG/SF (Houston, LA).

He can play at SG because he is talented scorer, and 2 years ago he was playing at SG but it looks like he is born to be PG. And belive me he will be all-star player because he is talented, hard worker, great caracter and plays bball with passion, and he is also great person.


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## Theberge43 (Nov 2, 2004)

John Hollinger chatting right now ... 



> Justin (Toronto, ON): Do you know anything about Jose Manuel Calderon coming to the Raptors or are you nearly as useless as the Toronto sports media?
> 
> SportsNation John Hollinger: (1:43 PM ET ) I've read that they have a deal in the works, but I'm not sure where he fits in. He's kind of a shooting guard in a point guard's body, but I doubt he'll score enough to justify major minutes.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Theberge43 said:


> John Hollinger chatting right now ...


nice job justin :eek8:


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

ansoncarter said:


> if he has star potential why did he go 41st?
> 
> buyout might have been an issue, but 10 teams in the second round still passed on him


How TF did Manu Ginobili get draft 57th.

FIFTY BLANKING SEVENTH!!!


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

What about players that went undrafted, like Ben Wallace?


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

trick said:


> nice job justin :eek8:


hahaha

"or are you nearly as useless as the Toronto sports media"

that great.


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