# His Airness: "Kobe is easily the best, w/o hesitation."



## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

> Damn today MJ was in Berlin (Germany) to present his new shoes and he was asked what he believes about the future of the league and the development after his retirement.
> 
> He answered, "well the NBA is in great hands but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant without hesitation".


http://www.sport1.de/

Game recognize Game... Player to Player, Pimp to Pimp...

Discuss...


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

im not denying it. Kobe is just nasty!


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

Can you provide the direct link with the quote?


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## PriceIsWright (Oct 11, 2006)

Link plz


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

Lynx said:


> Can you provide the direct link with the quote?


http://www.sport1.de/de/sport/artikel_491146.html

its german though

i believe he says it here:



> *Bryant ist Jordans Favorit*
> Doch in der NBA schwingen jetzt andere das Zepter. Einen Favoriten für den Titel des derzeit besten Spielers der Welt hat Jordan sofort parat: "Wenn ich mir nur einen einzigen dafür aussuchen darf, dann nehme ich Kobe Bryant."


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

Yeah, you got to translate my ninjas...


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

No dobut about it, Kobe Bryant is on another level right now. This up coming year will only solidify it.

I'm predicting Kobe will have his best statistical season this year @ 32/6/7 while dominating on the defensive end to earn another All NBA 1st team defense again.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

LOL, people ask for a link as if Jordan went out on a limb saying this or something. Almost everytime Jordan goes public he is asked this question and he always says Kobe. Outside of a few Kobe haters and James supporters, Kobe in generally considered the best individual player in the league.


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## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

lol its not like hes saying hes the best EVER or anything like that...basically he is speaking 100% fact. kobe is the best right now no doubt.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

It's either him or LeBron. And MJ _likes_ Kobe a heck of a lot more than LeBron.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I think MJ is looking at it in the vein that Kobe is closest to him, therefore the best right now.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

I wouldn't say Jordan LIKES Kobe more... why would he "like Kobe" more? Is that a means to look for a way to negate his opinion of Kobe being the best player on the planet? What evidence or proof do you have to validate such claims? Jordan has gone to the Bulls v.s. Celevland game, each time LeBron is in town. He was interviewed one game as saying he was there to see LeBron. That doesn't sound like someone who doesn't like a player. LeBron played in Jordan's High School classic back in 2002. And you have to be hand picked for that. Where do you get this from?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

He was right on Kwame,he was right on Stackhouse for Hamilton,he must be right now.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

jordan has talked down on lebron in the past. i dont know why...but it MAY be due to the carmelo/lebron rivalry, and melo is signed under jordan. but that is jordan's opinion. I thinklebron is the best overall player. think about it. you said OVERALL player. not best scorer. lebron beats out kobe in EVERY categpre except points. and only by 3ppg. more than makes up for those 3 points in other areas. and kobe's defense is waaaay too overrated. ive seen someon here say he is as good as bowen and artest. plz. it is average at best


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## Elie (Apr 27, 2003)

Duncan is the best. Tim Duncan. 

Post defense , rebounds , etc etc...

I don't get why everybody thinks the best player are guard like Kobe , Lebron , Wade , ...

In my opinion the best is Duncan. That's who. By a landslide. 

Great teamate , 3 finals MVP , can do everything (even the three pointer during thsi preseason). 
He is the best basketball player in the game .

Despite Jordan (and whatever he can say) the big men are still dominating the game. Jordan is so far the only exception (with Magic and Bird , but they were kinda big). 
That's why Duncan is by far a better basketball player than Kobe.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

LeBron doesn't even come close to Kobe on the defensive end. Not even close. LeBron is absent on that side of the floor. Isn't even effective, let alone game changing. When Kobe wants to, he can shut down virtually anyone. See Michael Redd, and VC matchup earlier last year. Hell, look at the plays Kobe guarded Bron in the regular season. I remember a play in Cleveland, from the ABC game, where Kobe was on Bron while he was dribbling up court, and he just straight ripped LeBron. 

BTW, when has Jordan ever talked down LeBron? Proof... validate your outrageous claims. MJ is a fan of LeBron, he just knows Kobe is the better player. Kobe's defense alone, out does rebounds. Kobe's primary concern on his team, isn't to rebound. So why is it an issue? He's a shooting guard. Bron is a 6'8 240 lbs SF... of course he is going to get more rebounds.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> I wouldn't say Jordan LIKES Kobe more... why would he "like Kobe" more? Is that a means to look for a way to negate his opinion of Kobe being the best player on the planet? What evidence or proof do you have to validate such claims? Jordan has gone to the Bulls v.s. Celevland game, each time LeBron is in town. He was interviewed one game as saying he was there to see LeBron. That doesn't sound like someone who doesn't like a player. LeBron played in Jordan's High School classic back in 2002. And you have to be hand picked for that. Where do you get this from?


I think Jordan had the comment that LeBron would be "an average NBA player" when asked how James would do during his rookie season. And there was some other quote that sort of riled the Cleveland faithful. Jordan doesn't hate LeBron but I don't think he loves James either.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

Diable said:


> He was right on Kwame


Drafting on potential isn't the same as evaluating present talent. Completely different. Besides, what GM hasn't made mistakes?



> he was right on Stackhouse for Hamilton,he must be right now.


Actually, he was. He set the Wizards up financially to go out and get a big f/a (Gilbert Arenas), and he also added a very important Larry Hughes, who helped lead them to their first playoffs in years in 2004 - 2005. Jordan made some very key moves for the Wizards. He left them a more valuable franchise, then when he had got there.


Don't be salty the Greatest Of All Time knows Kobe is the best in the league. Don't hate, appreciate.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

remy23 said:


> I think Jordan had the comment that LeBron would be "an average NBA player" when asked how James would do during his rookie season. And there was some other quote that sort of riled the Cleveland faithful. Jordan doesn't hate LeBron but I don't think he loves James either.


AND THAT was his intial opinion. Hell, alot of people didn't know for sure what LeBron would be in the League. Hell I didn't know how good he'd be. NO ONE did. They all were guessing. Some guesses just were more accurate than others. That statement certainly doesn't mean he hates LeBron. He has since become a fan of LeBron. So the point that MJ likes Kobe more than LeBron, is ridiculously false.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> AND THAT was his intial opinion. Hell, alot of people didn't know for sure what LeBron would be in the League. Hell I didn't know how good he'd be. NO ONE did. They all were guessing. Some guesses just were more accurate than others. That statement certainly doesn't mean he hates LeBron. He has since become a fan of LeBron. So the point that MJ likes Kobe more than LeBron, is ridiculously false.


LeBron played up in Chicago or somewhere during the summers and Jordan got to see James upclose. So it wasn't some opinion made from afar and made only from watching high school highlight reels. He saw LeBron upclose, thought he was average and even stated such. And LeBron showed in his rookie season he was above an average player. Which sort of goes back to how some people question Jordan's eye on talent (he's sometimes really great at it and other times not so great).


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

remy23 said:


> I think Jordan had the comment that LeBron would be "an average NBA player" when asked how James would do during his rookie season. And there was some other quote that sort of riled the Cleveland faithful. Jordan doesn't hate LeBron but I don't think he loves James either.


I wouldn't call Jordan a Lebron hater, I think he was just making his opinion on the guy as many were doing back then. There rarely is a player that everyone thinks is a sure fire can't miss player and typically if there is a player of that calibur they are a bigman. Yes, Jordan was wrong, but I would be willing to bet most didn't believe James would become the player he became so quickly.

This is also a common misconception of people have regarding this issue, because people choose to take Jordan's comments way out of context. Jordan was asked about James when he was still in highschool. Jordan stated, he believed James had talent, but would have to adjust (like many people believed). Jordan never said James was going to be an average player in the NBA. What Jordan was basically saying was he will be an average player in his first few years, and becoming a greater player depends on LeBron and how he handles himself on and off the court. Again, he was proven wrong, but so where many other people, so what value does that have? 

Here is the article where all of this began:
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/armstrong/030403.html


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

Jordan has a lot of hate for young players that gets a lot of attention, money, and props for something they didnt deserve. thats the only reason hes not picking lebron.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

No surprise really, game recognizes game every time. MJ may be an athlete, but he's not completely daft, like a guy named Charles Barkley.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

ralaw said:


> I wouldn't call Jordan a Lebron hater, I think he was just making his opinion on the guy as many were doing back then. There rarely is a player that everyone thinks is a sure fire can't miss player and typically if there is a player of that calibur they are a bigman. Yes, Jordan was wrong, but I would be willing to bet most didn't believe James would become the player he became so quickly.
> 
> This is also a common misconception of people have regarding this issue, because people choose to take Jordan's comments way out of context. Jordan was asked about James when he was still in highschool. Jordan stated, he believed James had talent, but would have to adjust (like many people believed). Jordan never said James was going to be an average player in the NBA. What Jordan was basically saying was he will be an average player in his first few years, and becoming a greater player depends on LeBron and how he handles himself on and off the court. Again, he was proved wrong, but so where many other people. However, does that make him hater?
> 
> ...


I wish I could find the article but either during the summer after LeBron's rookie season or actually during LeBron's 2nd year in the league, my memory has be thinking Jordan said something else. I need to see if my mind is playing tricks on me but I remember the somewhat anti-Jordan threads with MJ quotes on LeBron in the past (on another site). Really, it's no shocker to me because ex-players like Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and The Big O have all been nicer and kinder to LeBron than MJ has. And when you think of those players, each of those guys had a style more similar to LeBron than that of MJ in regards to James. So you have ex-players giving more props to guys with styles similar to their own when they played. Not shocking, really.


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## thacarter (Mar 27, 2006)

Yup as much as i hate Kobe whenever he plays the nets,theres no doubt hes the best guard in the game...where are the heat fans?


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## NOBLE (Apr 10, 2005)

The sooner the rest of BBB and the world understands this the better.

KB24 > your favorite.


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## jordan0386 (Jul 4, 2006)

Kobe version 2.4

i'd have to agree...but it is winning time...so when everyone is healthy, im expecting 50 wins...


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

You are all so dense. Don't know you know that the word "Kobe" translates to "Tmac" in German. Sheesh.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

_Dre_ said:


> I think MJ is looking at it in the vein that Kobe is closest to him, therefore the best right now.


Well if that's the case, and MJ being recognized by many as the greatest to play the game, that says it too.

-Petey


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

SPMJ said:


> It's either him or LeBron. And MJ _likes_ Kobe a heck of a lot more than LeBron.


Truth.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> LeBron doesn't even come close to Kobe on the defensive end. Not even close.


Lebron's much better than Kobe off the ball. Kobe gets his steals off of his man, Lebron gets his in the passing lanes. Kobe blocks his mans shot, Lebron comes flying off the weakside to get the block. And Lebron is still young defensively. He's certainly shown the ability to lock players up. He's Dirk Nowitzki's worst nightmare. Hopefully we continue to see a progression in that this year. I know Mike Brown wants the Cavs to be better defensively.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23AJ said:


> I'm predicting Kobe will have his best statistical season this year @ 32/6/7 while dominating on the defensive end to earn another All NBA 1st team defense again.


Dude. You are aware that you just called Kobe's best statistical season almost the exact same numbers that Lebron put up last year...

And the only way Kobe is getting first team all defense again is if the Lakers get Oden.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

MJ is down on Lebron because he says Lebron doesn't compete defensively as hard as Kobe does. He thinks Kobe has a complete game.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Lebron's much better than Kobe off the ball.


That's debateable. It still doesn't make him near as good of a defender. And once again, I think you're basing that off a) you being a ridiculous LeBron nut hugger, and b) Basing this statement off a few highlights where Bron came off the ball to block someone's shot. 



> Kobe gets his steals off of his man


Which is much more difficult to do.



> Lebron gets his in the passing lanes.


Not difficult to play passing lanes. And nor does it make you a good defender. The point of defense isn't to steal, it's to shut down your man. Steals are just a bonus from good defense.



> Kobe blocks his mans shot, Lebron comes flying off the weakside to get the block.


Once again, doing it straight up is much more difficult. Takes more discipline, understanding, and anticipation. Off the ball help, is easy.



> And Lebron is still young defensively.


Which means he is at his quickest right now, yet he still can't stay with people. Too slow laterally. 



> He's certainly shown the ability to lock players up.


No, he hasn't. He isn't even the best defender on his team. Hell, he isn't even second best. 



> He's Dirk Nowitzki's worst nightmare.


Let's not go that far off one game. One, which I'm not even sure you watched. LeBron wasn't putting the locks on Dirk. Dirk was having a bad offensive outing, and for the most part looked kinf of passive and didn't really care to be there that day. LeBron has certainly never locked down Dirk before. But if you want to use this game as an example of good defense, what happened when LeBronze was getting lit up by the Italian kid? Or when he couldn't stop his man with the Greek pick and roll. Don't let a bad shooting game by Dirk make you think it was LeBron's defense. No basketball analyst after that game said it was Bronze's defense that was the trick. It was Dirk having a bad game.



> Hopefully we continue to see a progression in that this year.


I hope so as well, until this season, if Bronze proves ANYTHING defensively... he is still a piss poor defender.

You won't see Bronze on any all-defensive first teams, let alone a DPOY award. To be the greatest, and to win *chips*, you got to play defense at a high level.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> And the only way Kobe is *getting first team all defense* again is if the Lakers get Oden.


Dude, 

Something LeBronze will never get.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> Dude,
> 
> Something LeBronze will never get.


LeBronze this, LeBronze that. It's always insulting when people *insist* on calling a person out of his or her name when the window of the joke has passed. So what's with the LeBronze stuff? Digging into the bag to insult a player by purposely writing his name wrong?


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

remy23 said:


> LeBronze this, LeBronze that. It's always insulting when people *insist* on calling a person out of his or her name when the window of the joke has passed. So what's with the LeBronze stuff? Digging into the bag to insult a player by purposely writing his name wrong?


No, the window hasn't close. LeBronze keeps opening it. See late August for example. He's the two time, two time, two time Bronze Medal WINNER. See Proof:


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

See, he is proud of his perpetual BRONZE. James, LeBRONZE James.


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## ballistixxx (Jan 24, 2006)

although I don't like either of them, I gotta agree with futuristxen about Lebron being the best right now... it's just... more true...


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*Horrible*



Samurai of Swoosh said:


> No, the window hasn't close. LeBronze keeps opening it. See late August for example. He's the two time, two time, two time Bronze Medal WINNER. See Proof:


My bad. I didn't know LeBron won those medals all by himself. I was under the impression he was part of a *team* that won those medals and didn't win those as an *individual*. Perhaps you've forgotten that along the way and insist only one person was responsible for the results. No cutesy nicknames for the other players? Yeah.



> See, he is proud of his perpetual BRONZE. James, LeBRONZE James.


Simply terrible. But if you believe so, I'm not the one to stop you.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Amusing to see rabid Kobe fans accuse rabid James fans of homerism.

Game recognizes game, indeed.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

Kobe isn't my favorite player... how would that make me a homer?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Dude. You are aware that you just called Kobe's best statistical season almost the exact same numbers that Lebron put up last year...
> 
> And the only way Kobe is getting first team all defense again is if the Lakers get Oden.


LeBron's stats never equate into 1st team all defense for a reason. As I pointed out Kobe is the better all around player. Since basketball is played on offense, and defense. LeBron is a bad defender. Where Kobe can lock up the best in the league.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: Horrible*



remy23 said:


> My bad. I didn't know LeBron won those medals all by himself. I was under the impression he was part of a *team* that won those medals and didn't win those as an *individual*. Perhaps you've forgotten that along the way and insist only one person was responsible for the results. No cutesy nicknames for the other players? Yeah.


He's the best player in the league though, correct? The best player, from the best league? Which would make him the best player in the world, no? The leader of Team USA, and he didn't even make a difference. Not a single difference. He never took over. Never dominated. I mean, this is the savior of the NBA we're talking about. He had to ride the shoulders of Carmelo Anthony when things got ugly. And don't get it twisted... LeBRONZE, Carmelo '3rd Place' Anthony, and Dwyane "over" Waded ... all got nicknames. That's 3 of them, that have 2 bronze medals. LeBronze and Dwyane Whistle, supposedly being the next comming of Jordan, did little if anything to dominate, and take over inferior competition. Raises questions, how come they play so well in the NBA? And look average in arenas that aren't NBA related? So yes, LeBronze sticks.



> Simply terrible. But if you believe so, I'm not the one to stop you.


It's not about believing... it's the truth. Backed up by cold, hard, bronze colored medals.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: Horrible*



Samurai of Swoosh said:


> He's the best player in the league though, correct? The best player, from the best league? Which would make him the best player in the world, no? The leader of Team USA, and he didn't even make a difference. Not a single difference. He never took over. Never dominated. I mean, this is the savior of the NBA we're talking about. He had to ride the shoulders of Carmelo Anthony when things got ugly. And don't get it twisted... LeBRONZE, Carmelo '3rd Place' Anthony, and Dwyane "over" Waded ... all got nicknames. That's 3 of them, that have 2 bronze medals. LeBronze and Dwyane Whistle, supposedly being the next comming of Jordan, did little if anything to dominate, and take over inferior competition. Raises questions, how come they play so well in the NBA? And look average in arenas that aren't NBA related? So yes, LeBronze sticks.


NBA and FIBA rules are very different. You could well be the best player in the NBA and not be the best player in FIBA rules. For example, I like LeBron over Carmelo in the NBA but under FIBA rules, Anthony looks even better over there than he does in the NBA and looks even a little better than James under those rules. So no, your quick attempt to say "If you're great in the NBA, you're the best in international basketball" doesn't hold up. 

And this LeBron and Jordan stuff is a joke. They don't even play alike. And from serious Cleveland fans, who's saying that? You don't see in the Cleveland forums any comparisons between the two. Quite frankly, LeBron shouldn't be compared to MJ because they don't play the game the same way. You might as well compare Wade to John Stockton if you like using poor player comparisons are a critique.



> It's not about believing... it's the truth. Backed up by cold, hard, bronze colored medals.


If you want to talk seriously, then bring it. Otherwise, it's a waste.


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## da bully (Oct 17, 2006)

I Think U Guys Are Missing The Point, Yes Kobe Had A Great Statistical Season Last Year, But I Would Not Call Him The Best Player In The Nba.he Is The Best Scorer In The League Right, Now But Im With Elie On This One, Tim Duncan Has To Be The Best Player In The Nba. 3 Championships As The Best Player On His Team, I Think 2 Mvps, All Defensive Teams. He Is Definately The Most Decorated Player In The Nba Hands Down.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: Horrible*



remy23 said:


> NBA and FIBA rules are very different.


Not that different. And even in the areas they are, for the most part, they benefit the super-athletic American players.



> You could well be the best player in the NBA and not be the best player in FIBA rules.


WRONG. Basketball is basketball. Miniscule rule changes shouldn't change an outcome, or effectiveness of a player that much. Not at all. It didn't for past professional USA teams. Steve Nash is great in the NBA, and is great in FIBA ... as is Dirk Nowitzki, Manu Ginobili, Carmelo Anthony... seems like you're making excuss for LeBronze. Rule changes simply force him to show a different side to his game. One in which he is clearly inferior compared to other players.



> For example, I like LeBron over Carmelo in the NBA but under FIBA rules, Anthony looks even better over there than he does in the NBA and looks even a little better than James under those rules.


Great basketball players look great anywhere. Ball is Ball. Players are players. Essentially, the game is still basketball. Little rule changes don't change THAT MUCH. That is purely an excuse. Kobe could play both types of games. So can Dirk, Nash, VC, T-Mac, Iverson, all still dominated and played like themselves when sent overseas. Wade, LeBronze all look liked role players at best over there. Begging for calls, as opposed to getting buckets, and kicking ***. Could make one think things are rigged for them to excel in the NBA, no?



> So no, your quick attempt to say "If you're great in the NBA, you're the best in international basketball" doesn't hold up.


Oh, it definetely does. You just don't want to recognize, cause it makes LeBronze look like what he is. Jordan never had trouble with International rules... great ones are great, ANYWHERE. The power to adapt, is the sign of a true baller.



> And this LeBron and Jordan stuff is a joke.


Of course, because Jordan is a legend. The best to ever play the game.



> If you want to talk seriously, then bring it. Otherwise, it's a waste.


I am, you're just catching feelings with the kidding "LeBRONZE" comments. I just made serious comparison of LeBronze to Kobe. None have been refuted.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> No, the window hasn't close. LeBronze keeps opening it. See late August for example. He's the two time, two time, two time Bronze Medal WINNER. See Proof:


what about wade? carmelo? everyone else on team usa with lebron? they all won bronze.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> what about wade? carmelo? everyone else on team usa with lebron? they all won bronze.


Read my last post, genius.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> That's debateable. It still doesn't make him near as good of a defender. And once again, I think you're basing that off a) you being a ridiculous LeBron nut hugger, and b) Basing this statement off a few highlights where Bron came off the ball to block someone's shot.
> 
> 
> Which is much more difficult to do.
> ...



Damn son, did you have to KEEP clowning "Bronze Bronze" like that? 

:laugh:


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Elie said:


> I don't get why everybody thinks the best player are guard like Kobe , Lebron , Wade...


It's not surprising considering that Jordan spent his whole career bullying great big men. I doubt he has the same respect for great big men as you and me do. I can't even remember Jordan ever throwing a prime Shaquille O'Neal a compliment at any time, and Shaquille was the main reason Jordan got put out of the playoffs in 1995 when the Magic beat them. 

You are 100% right though. For the past 4-5 seasons and for next season, there isn't anyone in the league I'd rather build around than Tim Duncan. We're talking about a guy who anchors your offense and defense as opposed to guys who just anchor your offense, and are considered victims of circumstance for being on poor defensive teams (Kobe, LeBron). 

I do think Kobe Bryant is the best perimeter player in the game because of his ability at both ends, and at his best, there isn't a player, big or small, who is even close to his level. He has too polished of an offensive game, and when the 25 footers start dropping like layups (like they do atleast a few times a year), you're going to be taking a loss. Unfortunetly, he can't duplicate these performances night in and night out, but when they happen, they are special. As it is though, his average performance is still great. You don't score an efficient 35 a night without being great night in and night out, but it's his "on his game" nights that create so much buzz around him and make him such a special figure in basketball today.


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

*Re: Horrible*



Samurai of Swoosh said:


> WRONG. Basketball is basketball. Miniscule rule changes shouldn't change an outcome, or effectiveness of a player that much. Not at all. It didn't for past professional USA teams. Steve Nash is great in the NBA, and is great in FIBA ... as is Dirk Nowitzki, Manu Ginobili, Carmelo Anthony... seems like you're making excuss for LeBronze. Rule changes simply force him to show a different side to his game. One in which he is clearly inferior compared to other players.


Wrong. Why is streetball a completely different brand of basketball compared to just regular basketball? Why is Rafer "Skip to my Lou" Alston an average PG when he's a streetball legend back in AND1? In streetball, travelling, carrying, palming, double dribbling is all out the window. Now AND1 ballers can do a lot more in terms of handling. They also encourage entertainment, in terms of humiliating your defender. It's different in regular basketball as those dribbling rules apply. This applies to the FIBA and NBA comparison. You remind me of those ignorant NFL fans who always sees the CFL as a minor league compared to the NFL when both are totally different brands of football.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's not surprising considering that Jordan spent his whole career bullying great big men. I doubt he has the same respect for great big men as you and me do. I can't even remember Jordan ever throwing a prime Shaquille O'Neal a compliment at any time, and Shaquille was the main reason Jordan got put out of the playoffs in 1995 when the Magic beat them.
> 
> You are 100% right though. For the past 4-5 seasons and for next season, there isn't anyone in the league I'd rather build around than Tim Duncan. We're talking about a guy who anchors your offense and defense as opposed to guys who just anchor your offense, and are considered victims of circumstance for being on poor defensive teams (Kobe, LeBron).
> 
> I do think Kobe Bryant is the best perimeter player in the game because of his ability at both ends, and at his best, there isn't a player, big or small, who is even close to his level. He has too polished of an offensive game, and when the 25 footers start dropping like layups (like they do atleast a few times a year), you're going to be taking a loss. Unfortunetly, he can't duplicate these performances night in and night out, but when they happen, they are special. As it is though, his average performance is still great. You don't score an efficient 35 a night without being great night in and night out, but it's his "on his game" nights that create so much buzz around him and make him such a special figure in basketball today.



Fabulous post. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Horrible*



4BiddenKnight said:


> Wrong. Why is streetball a completely different brand of basketball compared to just regular basketball? Why is Rafer "Skip to my Lou" Alston an average PG when he's a streetball legend back in AND1? In streetball, travelling, carrying, palming, double dribbling is all out the window. Now AND1 ballers can do a lot more in terms of handling. They also encourage entertainment, in terms of humiliating your defender. It's different in regular basketball as those dribbling rules apply. This applies to the FIBA and NBA comparison. You remind me of those ignorant NFL fans who always sees the CFL as a minor league compared to the NFL when both are totally different brands of football.


Comparing the difference between streetball and the NBA to the difference between the NBA and FIBA is equally ridiculous.

And NFL fans see the CFL as a minor league because they believe most CFLers aren't good enough for the NFL. A few exceptions of course.

It has nothing to do with any rules differences.


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: Horrible*



Samurai of Swoosh said:


> WRONG. Basketball is basketball. Miniscule rule changes shouldn't change an outcome, or effectiveness of a player that much. Not at all. It didn't for past professional USA teams. Steve Nash is great in the NBA, and is great in FIBA ... as is Dirk Nowitzki, Manu Ginobili, Carmelo Anthony... seems like you're making excuss for LeBronze. Rule changes simply force him to show a different side to his game. One in which he is clearly inferior compared to other players.


When you compare players like Dirk, Manu and others who have more experience under those rules of play to Americans who take a several week long crash course to learn the rules, you don't have the same thing. Rules changes isn't about showing a different side of your game. It's either you thrive in the new environment or you're less effective. And many NBA players are simply less effective under those rules. 



> Great basketball players look great anywhere. Ball is Ball. Players are players. Essentially, the game is still basketball. Little rule changes don't change THAT MUCH. That is purely an excuse. Kobe could play both types of games. So can Dirk, Nash, VC, T-Mac, Iverson, all still dominated and played like themselves when sent overseas. Wade, LeBronze all look liked role players at best over there. Begging for calls, as opposed to getting buckets, and kicking ***. Could make one think things are rigged for them to excel in the NBA, no?


Great basketball players are everywhere but being the best in one style of play doesn't guarantee you're the best in another. LeBron was used as a role player starting offense and even playing PG at times more than Paul. Which is using James in a way he's not even used back in the NBA. So he was a role player and frankly, that's what he did. Great players can play all styles but your simplistic approach of assuming you're the best in every style of basketball isn't accurate. 



> Oh, it definetely does. You just don't want to recognize, cause it makes LeBronze look like what he is. Jordan never had trouble with International rules... great ones are great, ANYWHERE. The power to adapt, is the sign of a true baller.


And what does Jordan have to do with LeBron? It doesn't matter if Jordan is the best ever under FIBA rules or not. LeBron's results in international play are the only thing that matters. He's a decent all-around guy in that style of play. Less effective than his NBA self by far but still a decent player.




> Of course, because Jordan is a legend. The best to ever play the game.


And again, Jordan was never a 250 pound forward, so Jordan comparisons are really poor in regards to James. You're much better looking at Bird/Magic in regards to James than Jordan.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Kobe is in his prime, Lebron is just starting out. That we are even having this conversation says everything.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

People who still call Lebron "Lebronze" only show how LAME they are. It is quite entertaining to me though, but pathetic at the same time.

I guess if that is what makes you feel good about yourselves then by all means, "Lebronze" away.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

And why are we bashing Lebron's performance in the World's? He played really well. He, Wade, and Melo were our 3 best players, and each one of them won games for us. Lebron for instance pretty much won the Argentina game for us, by nearly notching a triple double, once Coach K belatedly moved him to point guard, where he outplayed who we had been playing there. This year's team was a lot better than the team that put Lebron and Melo on the end of the bench. The medal may have been the same, but the quality of basketball was much greater, and I think more appreciated by the rest of the world than what we showed in the olympics. We had some definitely great moments of basketball in that run. But we came up against a team in Greece who was just flat out better that day than we were. **** happens. Greece was one of the better teams in the world, and they had a great game.

The team led by Duncan and AI had a much tougher time than this year's team did. Which I think is a fact that is glossed over.

I think this board chose Lebron as the best player in the NBA by the way when we did the big top 50 players in the NBA vote. Which I think says more than what Jordan, one man's opinion, has to say. The silent consensus here is that Lebron is the best, no matter how vocal other players fans are.

It's very easy to talk **** about guys during the offseason. As a rule, I would say 80 percent of the Lebron blasting goes on when he's not playing.

Oh and why isn't Wade in this conversation? When he's in the finals, peopel are saying he's the best player on the planet, and then that talk slowly fizzes out. The season hasn't even started yet, why isn't Wade still the best player on the planet? NBA Finals champ and NBA Finals MVP. I'm preetty sure Lebron and Kobe are both chasing after what he's got.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Tragedy said:


> People who still call Lebron "Lebronze" only show how LAME they are. It is quite entertaining to me though, but pathetic at the same time.
> 
> I guess if that is what makes you feel good about yourselves then by all means, "Lebronze" away.


I guess you don't undrerstand it...

When a guy is entering the league picking the #23 jersey to play and with an humongous "The Choosen One" tattoo in his back, and answering the name "King James", he is asking for a beat-down.

Yes, he is.

And yes, i got much joy from seeing the guy fail (in the NBA and in International Game). And in International Game even more, since they don't have the superstar rules that allow Lebron James to do whatever he feels like in the hadrwood...

Sue me.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: Horrible*



4BiddenKnight said:


> Wrong. Why is streetball a completely different brand of basketball compared to just regular basketball? Why is Rafer "Skip to my Lou" Alston an average PG when he's a streetball legend back in AND1? In streetball, travelling, carrying, palming, double dribbling is all out the window. Now AND1 ballers can do a lot more in terms of handling. They also encourage entertainment, in terms of humiliating your defender. It's different in regular basketball as those dribbling rules apply. This applies to the FIBA and NBA comparison.


*WRONG*

Why is streetball a different brand of basketball compared to NBA? Because it is just that, a different BRAND of basketball. There are less rules, cause it meshes Harlem Globe Trotter type play, with real basketball.

Why is Skip to my Lou" Alston an average PG when he's a streetball legend with AND1?
For one, ever player already in the NBA can play And 1, show off style, and do it better than the actual And 1 players. The reason they aren't in And 1 doing it, is because they also play real basketball, and are making real big money as professional ball players. For Rafer it worked in reverse, he came from And 1 to the League, and had to fight his image as a strictly "streetball player". Have you ever seen Jason Willaims? He can do anything Skip does, and in some instances, even better. Have you ever watched a Rucker Park game where NBA players show up, and play an "And 1" type style game? They do it better than the normal street players. Jamal Crawford routinely goes up there and busts people's asses. You know why? Because they're professionals, and they know how to play that game as well. They came from that enviornment originally. Every player can do those things with a ball. But with And 1 players, that is ALL they can do. And that is what And 1 players are known for. That's why they didn't make it in the real leagues. And NBA players are great cause they can play either way. THEY CAN ADAPT.

Haha, This isn't really helping your argument. What you basically said is that the NBA and And 1 are similar in that they value entertainment as opposed to real basketball. So, it is FIBA that is the REAL basketball, because they aren't loose in their calls and rules? Yeah. Like Rafer can be great in And 1 with no rules, but in the NBA is average. Like LeBron in the NBA with lack of calls, or calls in his favor can be great in the entertainment league, but in the real basketball league aka FIBA, he looks average? See the corrolation you just made with your post? Haha, brillaint.

But the fact of the matter is, they aren't different brands of basketball. There is SOME differences, but not enough to make it a different game or different brand. Basketball is basketball. Game is game. Greats are greats anywhere. Your argument is full of holes, kid.

You remind me of one of those little sixteen / seventeen year olds who are pulling on the shirt of the grown ups, trying to make people believe he knows what he is talking about. Get out, and move along son... you're out of your league.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> I guess you don't undrerstand it...
> 
> When a guy is entering the league picking the #23 jersey to play and with an humongous "The Choosen One" tattoo in his back, and answering the name "King James", he is asking for a beat-down.


:yes:


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I love me some Paulo.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I love me some Paulo.


TMI my friend, TMI!


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

No huge surprise here. It's mostly agreed that Lebron and Kobe are the best 2 players in the league, with the occasional Duncan thrown in there (depending on whether you're partial to big men). 

That Jordan thinks Kobe is the best doesn't stike me as unusual at all. He has always seemed to have some disdain for Lebron that I can't put my finger on. He's played against Kobe, and indeed, Kobe's made him look bad more than once by outplaying him. Anybody who thinks Kobe is the best player in the league has a real argument, Jordan is no different. Personally, I don't know who's better between the two. But I do think they're the two best. 

Those who say Lebron is a bad defender, though, have not been watching him lately. True, his lateral quickness (or lack thereof) sometimes limits him in guarding smaller, quicker players, but he's shown the ability to shut down both small quick players (see Tony Parker) and larger players (Dirk). In truth, he has shown the ability to shut players down when he focuses on it. Unfortunately, he only seems to do that to a select few players, like Carmelo and Pierce. 

Kobe suffers from the same thing. The thing that holds him back from playing all-world defense all the time is that he doesn't always appear to be interested in it. He does do it more than Lebron, particularly when he's facing another superstar. But he probably didn't deserve the 1st team selection last year because he would often take time off on defense. 

To both of their credit, though, they were called on to be their entire team's offense last season. They couldn't afford to expend as much effort on defense as some players on better teams could.

Also, many people in this discussion fail to credit areas where Lebron is stronger by simply breaking it down into offense and defense. Lebron is definitely the better passer and rebounder. He's also the better help defender. Kobe is the better shooter and man defender. When you break it down, the difference is not as big as some make it out to be. 

Personally, I love the way both players play the game. I'm not going to resort to calling names or other immature tactics that the thread started did. It just makes your argument look weaker. Like you can't defend your position intelligently.

Futuristxen makes a good point, though. The fact that we're having this discussion with Kobe in his prime is truly remarkable. I regard Kobe as one of the best players in the game in recent memory, and it looks like Lebron is well on his way to a similar status. 

Nothing wrong with Jordan thinking Kobe's the best. A lot of people think that.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> I guess you don't undrerstand it...
> 
> When a guy is entering the league picking the #23 jersey to play and with an humongous "The Choosen One" tattoo in his back, and answering the name "King James", he is asking for a beat-down.
> 
> Yes, he is.


Lebron got that tatoo not because he thought he was the chosen one, but because he is the chosen one. You don't choose yourself for savoir of basketball role, that gets put upon you(upon your shoulders). That tatoo is an acknowledgement of the huge cross of expecatations that he has to live under. Nothing less than the greatest ever is going to be good enough for the basketball world. And that's not his fault, but it's how it is. His first three years have been failures in his mind. Any season that doesn't end in a championship is a wasted year for him.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> I guess you don't undrerstand it...
> 
> When a guy is entering the league picking the #23 jersey to play and with an humongous "The Choosen One" tattoo in his back, and answering the name "King James", he is asking for a beat-down.
> 
> ...


Yes, it's pretty clear that you're a Lebron hater. But many of your arguments here are pretty bad. 

He chose #23 because he wanted to try to be as good as his idol, Jordan. He wasn't making some statement like "I'm as good as Jordan" or anything like that. Granted, you already know this. But you want to use this as an example of his "poor attitude" or something like that. It's a disingenuous position, and I think you know it.

King James was a name given to him. Why? Probably because the best basketball players all tend to have nicknames of some sort. Mamba (didn't Kobe make this up himself?), The Truth, "Air" Jordan, The Diesel, etc. James didn't make up the nickname, it was coined by somebody who made the connection between his last name and a famous king. Nothing to see here. Just looking for another excuse to hate.

I don't know the full story behind the "Chosen One" tatto, but I don't know if you do, either. It certainly doesn't bother me any more than Kobe calling himself the Mamba. Namely, it doesn't bother me at all. 

Also, Lebron has had great success in both the NBA and the international game. He was one of the best players on the USA team this summer, and he was one of the best in the NBA last year. I hope you get joy from things other than seeing him fail because otherwise you'd be a pretty person most of the time.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Lebron got that tatoo not because he thought he was the chosen one, but because he is the chosen one. You don't choose yourself for savoir of basketball role, that gets put upon you(upon your shoulders). That tatoo is an acknowledgement of the huge cross of expecatations that he has to live under. Nothing less than the greatest ever is going to be good enough for the basketball world. And that's not his fault, but it's how it is. His first three years have been failures in his mind. Any season that doesn't end in a championship is a wasted year for him.


What a bunch of balloney (sp?)...

I know you are a LBJ groupie, Fruity, so i'll try to make it easy on you...

1- LBJ is the reason basketball players aren't checked for usage of illegal substances...;
2- LBJ got his *** served to him during international game severall times;
3- Refs awarded LBJ for a game winning shot which was a blatant foul just because he is the golden child for the media;
4- LBJ winning ROY was a freaking maskerade;
5- LBJ is a crature born of drugs, hype and media...

Yeah, he is a great player. But he is NOT all that you would like him to be...


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> Kobe isn't my favorite player... how would that make me a homer?


You could have fooled me. 

Plus the whole "insult Lebron when debating Kobe/Lebron" is typical of Kobe jockriders.

And this is coming from a Kobe fan, just not a mindless homer. Kobe's just as open to criticism as the best players in this league, and that includes Lebron. But using the Bronze medal excuse is rather childish and weak, and really just makes people discredit your opinion when arguing any issue in terms of "who the best in the league" is.

I could argue that Kobe needs Shaq to win championships because he can't do it himself, but that would be a ridiculous and invalid attack, just like arguing calling a player "Lebronze" is.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> What a bunch of balloney (sp?)...
> 
> I know you are a LBJ groupie, Fruity, so i'll try to make it easy on you...
> 
> ...


Either Lebron did something to your favorite team, or you see him as a threat to your favorite player. It's pretty obvious.

You sound like a kid who just got his candy stolen.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Brandname said:


> Either Lebron did something to your favorite team, or you see him as a threat to your favorite player. It's pretty obvious.
> 
> You sound like a kid who just got his candy stolen.


Or maybe i sound like the guy who got frustrated after Ben Johnson beat Carl Lewis...


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> Or maybe i sound like the guy who got frustrated after Ben Johnson beat Carl Lewis...


hahahaha... that is kinda funny


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> I guess you don't undrerstand it...
> 
> When a guy is entering the league picking the #23 jersey to play and with an humongous "The Choosen One" tattoo in his back, and answering the name "King James", he is asking for a beat-down.
> 
> ...



Considering the hype he got ever since he was 15/16, having games played nationally - I can understand why a teen would put that on their back. Many basketball players have tattoos that give themselves props, from guys in the nba all the way down to the street level.

As far as the King James, it's obvious where the name is tied to, and it's not as though he ONLY answers to that. People called MJ His Airness for goodness sakes.

As for the 23, how many people in the NBA have that number? Jason Richardson comes to mind immediately. The only reason why you mention that part is because he is THAT good to even pose a threat to the other 23's legacy.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Me: This topic is redundant.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Let's just be happy that he actually appointed a best, instead of writing off the NBA completely as a bunch of terrible players where even the best of today would only be average in his era. I'm surprised he didn't gather up the old-timers to let everyone know about how he could score 150 points per game in today's era.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Let's just be happy that he actually appointed a best, instead of writing off the NBA completely as a bunch of terrible players where even the best of today would only be average in his era. I'm surprised he didn't gather up the old-timers to let everyone know about how he could score 150 points per game in today's era.


You're not kidding. Sometimes it seems like the older players think the more recently a player entered the league, the worse they are. Automatically. It bothers me listening to some of the former players act like there are no good basketball players anymore. I think it's half jealousy of the praise of current players and half resistance to change in general.

Actually, Oscar Robertson seemed to act like this to me a lot. One of the all time greats, for sure, but if you heard him talk about what he'd be able to do in today's league, it's kind of irritating.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's not surprising considering that Jordan spent his whole career bullying great big men. I doubt he has the same respect for great big men as you and me do. I can't even remember Jordan ever throwing a prime Shaquille O'Neal a compliment at any time, and Shaquille was the main reason Jordan got put out of the playoffs in 1995 when the Magic beat them.


he did use to throw some compliments hakeem's way. he said that they could never find an answer for him and even if he had never retired, the bulls wouldnt have beat the rockets in the finals.

i dont really see why this matter, jordan has always been full of it. great players dont necessarily make great analysts (charles barkley, scottie pippen). and kobe hasnt been the defender people like to pretend he is since shaq left.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Brandname said:


> Actually, Oscar Robertson seemed to act like this to me a lot. One of the all time greats, for sure, but if you heard him talk about what he'd be able to do in today's league, it's kind of irritating.


Yup. I remember his interview with Steven A. Smith last season where he was acting like he could average a triple double today, no problem, like he did in 62. Started talking as if he had it harder back then or some BS. More sad than it is irritating.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Or maybe i sound like the guy who got frustrated after Ben Johnson beat Carl Lewis...


You don't think Carl Lewis was doping? Type in Carl Lewis and Doping into a google search engine and just see how clean he is.

If Lebron is using performance enhancers, then I guarantee a workout freak like Kobe is using them too.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

I think Lebron is doping with vision enhancers. They just came out on the underground market. They help to improve the visual perception area for better court vision. They really need to start testing for it.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

I can agree with Jordan saying Kobe is the better player...

...but I would rather have Lebron over Kobe. What does that say?

Basketball is still a team game...


Kobe is probably a better scorer then MJ. MJ never had the 3 point shot like Kobe.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

compsciguy78 said:


> I can agree with Jordan saying Kobe is the better player...
> 
> ...but I would rather have Lebron over Kobe. What does that say?
> 
> ...


 it says lebron's got a significantly better team around him.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Tragedy said:


> it says lebron's got a significantly better team around him.


W/ Hughes missing so many games LeBron's cast was no better than Kobe. Both had sucky PGs. Decent 2nd options. Mihm/Kwame=Gooden/Marshall. LeBron's got the slightly better bench but Kobe's got a certain PJ sitting there that negates whatever LeBron's got. 

Their supporting casts last season were a tossup.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> W/ Hughes missing so many games LeBron's cast was no better than Kobe. Both had sucky PGs. Decent 2nd options. LeBron's got the slightly better bench but Kobe's got a certain PJ sitting there that negates whatever LeBron's got.
> 
> Their supporting casts last season were a tossup.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. 

A cursory look at the statistics of each player's supporting casts last season supports this. They were both poor. Much of the struggles for Lebron's teammates was poor offensive coaching, in contrast to the Lakers. Mike Brown's playlist last year was:

1) Give Lebron the ball and hope he makes a play or scores a basket. Everyone else sit still and observe carefully.
2) None


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

Tragedy said:


> it says lebron's got a significantly better team around him.



Lets not go there. 

What I meant was if I had to build a team from scratch I would take Lebron. Kobe might be the better player, but I like what Lebron brings to the table more then Kobe.


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

Brandname said:


> You sound like a kid who just got his candy stolen.


_Many _people in this thread sound like kids who just had their candy stolen.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

SPMJ said:


> W/ Hughes missing so many games LeBron's cast was no better than Kobe. Both had sucky PGs. Decent 2nd options. Mihm/Kwame=Gooden/Marshall. LeBron's got the slightly better bench but Kobe's got a certain PJ sitting there that negates whatever LeBron's got.
> 
> Their supporting casts last season were a tossup.


 thats cuz phil is out there playing ball, right?


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Lebron had a former allstar at center and a proven vet at pg while the Lakers had a guy off the street running point. They had a proven 6th man in Marshall and a proven 2nd option in Hughes along with Murray late. 

Lakers had odom a proven allstar caliber guy, kwame playing good late and a bunch of very young players who by season's end were playing well.

Lebron's cast was better that really can't be argued when viewing it honestly PLUS Lebron played in the EAST while the Lakers played in the tougher West. 

This season is different .

Kobe is better MJ had it right I think he way lebron played in the Fiba games revealed the fact he had a ways to go he was the 3rd best guy on that team. 

Lebron passes better he has Magic Johnson court vision while Kobe has MJ court vision. Kobe's a better scorer and a more knowledgeable player because of experience and Kobe plays defnse while lebron just sorta gambles for steals.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> thats cuz phil is out there playing ball, right?


I don't want to get into that argument too much, but a coach has a huge impact on his team's offensive performance (and defense, equally). See Mike D'Antoni, for example.

Phil Jackson is one of the best coaches in the history of the game, with one of the best resumes. He knows how to coach the game. 

Mike Brown was a rookie coach, and it showed last year. He had no offensive system, and this limited the Cavs severely.

The point is that I agree Lebron's teammates are more talented than Kobe's. But due to the coaching of the respective teams last year, the supporting casts performed about equally. Without Kobe on the floor, the Lakers were completely lost. Because they weren't good enough to compete themselves. Without Lebron, the Cavs were completely lost last year. But in their case, it was because the coach did not have any semblance of an offensive system to utilize their talents. 

Ultimately, the performance of each supporting cast was about equal. And it was well, well below league average. They were both pretty abysmal last year.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

compsciguy78 said:


> Lets not go there.
> 
> What I meant was if I had to build a team from scratch I would take Lebron. Kobe might be the better player, but I like what Lebron brings to the table more then Kobe.


If I had to pick a player to build around I'd take Kobe he's more competitive. I'll always take the competitor. 

You shouldn't have to be coaxed into playing defense , Lebron has the sorta body and athleticism that he should be guarding anyone from the 2 to the 4. he should man up a pf if they're going off with his size and understanding of the game. 

defense is mostly effort when you're as athletic as lebron is. 

It seems odd to me that some players pick and choose when to be competitive on the basketball court.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

jazzy1 said:


> It seems odd to me that some players pick and choose when to be competitive on the basketball court.


You're fooling yourself if you think Kobe doesn't do the same thing.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

jazzy1 said:


> Lebron had a former allstar at center and a proven vet at pg while the Lakers had a guy off the street running point. They had a proven 6th man in Marshall and a proven 2nd option in Hughes along with Murray late.


What matters is how these supposedly _proven_ players _performed_ last season. Z was no better than Odom. In fact, he got worse as the season progressed while the opposite happened w/ Odom. Z's play was nothing short of plain awful at the end of last year. Nobody in their mind would've taken him over Odom but I'm still willing to call it a draw.

Statistically Eric Snow was the WORST starting PG in the league last season. If you wanna hear more abt Snow's incompetence just visit any Cavs board on the net. I don't know any fans who hated a player on their team as much as Cleveland fans hated Snow. Snow's a veteran but that's where the positives end. He can't guard anyone relatively quick. Can't shoot and is an offensive liability. He's a vet, sure. But the only thing he's _proven_ lately is how much he sucks. 

What has Marshall proven aside from being a guy who jacks up 3's(he shot a poor % last season) off the bench and does nothing else? Hughes missed like 50 games last season and Murray's nothing to write much abt. 



> Lebron's cast was better that really can't be argued when viewing it honestly PLUS Lebron played in the EAST while the Lakers played in the tougher West.


LeBron's team had a better win % against both the East and the West. This was told a million times last season during MVP debates. 



> I think he way lebron played in the Fiba games revealed the fact he had a ways to go he was the 3rd best guy on that team.


LeBron put up 14/5/4 on 60% shooting in the Olympics. Played his best D to date and IMO was only 2nd to 'Melo on the team. Not to mention he was playing under rules that severely limited what he did best and he still played pretty darn well.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> And why are we bashing Lebron's performance in the World's? He played really well. He, Wade, and Melo were our 3 best players, and each one of them won games for us. Lebron for instance pretty much won the Argentina game for us, by nearly notching a triple double, once Coach K belatedly moved him to point guard, where he outplayed who we had been playing there. This year's team was a lot better than the team that put Lebron and Melo on the end of the bench. The medal may have been the same, but the quality of basketball was much greater, and I think more appreciated by the rest of the world than what we showed in the olympics. We had some definitely great moments of basketball in that run. But we came up against a team in Greece who was just flat out better that day than we were. **** happens. Greece was one of the better teams in the world, and they had a great game.



I disagree that Lebron played really well this summer. There were plenty of moments in the tournament where I felt he could have been going a little harder. He wasnt even breaking a sweat in the game against Greece until the last few minutes, where you could clearly see his effort level change. 

And he basically confirmed this idea when he went on Letterman. 



People are trying to hand Lebron everything way too early.


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## BullSoxChicagosFinest (Oct 22, 2005)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> LeBron doesn't even come close to Kobe on the defensive end. Not even close. LeBron is absent on that side of the floor. Isn't even effective, let alone game changing. When Kobe wants to, he can shut down virtually anyone. See Michael Redd, and VC matchup earlier last year. Hell, look at the plays Kobe guarded Bron in the regular season. I remember a play in Cleveland, from the ABC game, where Kobe was on Bron while he was dribbling up court, and he just straight ripped LeBron.


Pssh, Hinrich scored like 26 on him last year



Samurai of Swoosh said:


> Not difficult to play passing lanes. And nor does it make you a good defender. The point of defense isn't to steal, it's to shut down your man. Steals are just a bonus from good defense.


You can play great D and still get scored on. I'd rather have the turnover. Also need a team effort for great D. Not to mention Lebron is still young, plenty of time to improve as a defender



Samurai of Swoosh said:


> Kobe isn't my favorite player... how would that make me a homer?


Please, I've only browsed this board for a week and have seen you say he's your favorite multiple times.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> LeBron doesn't even come close to Kobe on the defensive end. Not even close. LeBron is absent on that side of the floor. Isn't even effective, let alone game changing. When Kobe wants to, he can shut down virtually anyone. See Michael Redd, and VC matchup earlier last year. Hell, look at the plays Kobe guarded Bron in the regular season. I remember a play in Cleveland, from the ABC game, where Kobe was on Bron while he was dribbling up court, and he just straight ripped LeBron.
> 
> BTW, when has Jordan ever talked down LeBron? Proof... validate your outrageous claims. MJ is a fan of LeBron, he just knows Kobe is the better player. Kobe's defense alone, out does rebounds. *Kobe's primary concern on his team, isn't to rebound. So why is it an issue? He's a shooting guard.* Bron is a 6'8 240 lbs SF... of course he is going to get more rebounds.


tell that to dwyane wade. kobe just isnt a good rebounder. straight up. 

and kobe's devese is WAAAAAAAAY overrated. ive seen scrubs light him up so bad. and he tries to guard superstars, but he gets way too active and fouls them a lot. especially pierce. and you cant point to one steal he had against lebron to show his defense. i remember wade spiked kobe's ball out of bounds...so he MUST have better defense (well...i actually think he does). ppl always bring up michael redd and VC as examples. the same old games. you cant say "when he wants to he can shut down anyone" because thta can be used for any player in the league. ive seen lebron completely shut down opposing players. so i guess i can say the same thing. "lebron is th best defender in the league whenhe wants to be because he shut down paul pierce". plz stop with the overrating. it only makes ppl hate more when someone is put on apedistol to which they do not belong. geez he wasnt even the best defender on his team


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Kobe is the best in today's league, no doubt about it. I don't like the guy, but he's the best. 

I'd take LeBron over Kobe though, just because I'd be able to contend for longer.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Diable said:


> He was right on Kwame,he was right on Stackhouse for Hamilton,he must be right now.



He was judging potiential talent on those. Not who is the best in the game as it stands now.

By I understand your logic.... :laugh:


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

BullSoxChicagosFinest said:


> Pssh, Hinrich scored like 26 on him last year


I was at that game. Kobe guarder him a few plays. Even so, cause he got 26 scored on him, by a pretty good player...that makes him a bad defender? Is that what you're saying? Kirk scored 26, and Kobe's a bad defender? Kobe got voted 1st all-defense for nothing? 



> You can play great D and still get scored on.


Yeah, but that is rare occurances where someones shot just happens to be falling. What's your point?



> I'd rather have the turnover.


Of course, but then again you probably don't play basketball, nor do you truly understand the game from a player's angle. I can tell by this statement alone. If you have someone on your team constantly gambling for a turnover, that's bad defense. Defense is about doing your best to shut down your man. Not getting steals.



> Also need a team effort for great D.


Yeah, in order to play great TEAM defense. You don't always need team help in order to be a good individual defender. And LeBron is certainly not a good defender.



> Not to mention Lebron is still young, plenty of time to improve as a defender


So because he sucks at defense, we'll give him an excuse. A bail out. Psssh, please... good defenders are good defenders at any age. He needs to learn quick if he wants to be a factor within the game, besides on the offensive end.



> Please, I've only browsed this board for a week and have seen you say he's your favorite multiple times.


I've also put Kobe in place before. You obviously aren't paying attention, son...

I can tell from this post alone, you're a Kobe Hater. Anything you have to say on the topic of Kobe Bryant should be ignored. You, and duncan2k5. I've been here a short time, and have already put that kid in his place multiple times.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Elie said:


> Duncan is the best. Tim Duncan.
> 
> Post defense , rebounds , etc etc...
> 
> ...



duncan2k5 is that you? :biggrin:


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

SPMJ said:


> W/ Hughes missing so many games LeBron's cast was no better than Kobe. Both had sucky PGs. Decent 2nd options. Mihm/Kwame=Gooden/Marshall. LeBron's got the slightly better bench but Kobe's got a certain PJ sitting there that negates whatever LeBron's got.
> 
> Their supporting casts last season were a tossup.


Except Hughes still played half the season and Flip was added mid-season. Meaning Cavs supporting cast > Lakers supporting cast. If you're a _thinking _fan.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

EHL said:


> Except Hughes still played half the season and Flip was added mid-season. Meaning Cavs supporting cast > Lakers supporting cast. If you're a _thinking _fan.


Hughes played 0 games healthy for the Cavs last year. He broke his hand in _preseason_.

Varejao also missed half the season last year.

Also, I described previously why their supporting casts performed equally bad last year in my previous posts, even though Lebron's teammates were considered more talented.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

duncan2k5 said:


> tell that to dwyane wade. kobe just isnt a good rebounder. straight up.


And Dwyane Wade and LeBronze are horrible defenders... straight up. That's why Wade asked to be tutored by Kobe in his defensive tactics. 



> and kobe's devese is WAAAAAAAAY overrated.


What the hell is "devese"?

And if you mean defense, obviously not. He got voted All-NBA First Defensive Team for a reason, correct? Seems like you don't know your basketball. 



> ive seen scrubs light him up so bad.


Which scrubs were these? And when? 



> and he tries to guard superstars, but he gets way too active and fouls them a lot.


Kobe is the only person in the league to have the balls to guard other superstars. Not just that, Kobe makes them work for it. I've seen on seperate occasions, T-Mac was lighting up Kobe's team. Second half they put Kobe on him, and the clamps got put on the Mac Man.



> and you cant point to one steal he had against lebron to show his defense.


I'm not. I'm saying, for instance. LeBronze doesn't have that ability. To justify Kobe's level of defense, all I have to do his point to his respect from peers, and his First Team All Defense honors. How many other superstars have that? Dwyane Whistle? Tracy McGrady? Paul Pierce? Vince Carter? LeBronze James? Exactly...



> (well...i actually think he does)


Well that is because you don't know what you're talking about. Wade wouldn't even agree with you. Wade asked for help FROM KOBE on his defense.



> ppl always bring up michael redd and VC as examples.


Because those are recent examples... DUH.



> you cant say "when he wants to he can shut down anyone" because thta can be used for any player in the league.


Oh you most certainly can say that for Kobe. Kobe's is backed with fact. See said games against superstar offensive threats.



> ive seen lebron completely shut down opposing players.


No, you haven't... cause it has never happened.



> "lebron is th best defender in the league whenhe wants to be because he shut down paul pierce".


LeBronze never shut down Paul Pierce.



> plz stop with the overrating.


Before we do, you stop with the underrating, and blatant hate.



> geez he wasnt even the best defender on his team


Who?
Kobe?

You're officially not allowed to talk about basketball. You're a joke.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> You're officially not allowed to talk about basketball. You're a joke.


You're not doing your argument any favors with this kind of nonsense.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

EHL said:


> Except Hughes still played half the season and Flip was added mid-season.



Dude, you moderated the Cavs forum last year! So you should know full well that Hughes didn't play half the season(what's half of 82? It's damnly sure not 36) and the sections he did play he was playing with a badly injured hand that hampered his ability to finish plays and follow through on his jump shot. Last season was arguably Larry Hughes worst season in his entire career, and it was almost entirely due to his hand injury.

And even at that, he was still markedly better than Sasha Pavolovic and Luke Jackson and Damon Jones, who all played in his place until Flip came on for the last quarter of the season.

This is why the Cavs have to be considered a title contender this year. All of these players had career lows last year, and they still did amazing. If they actually play average this year, it could put the Cavs over the top. And with a guy like Hughes, average should be a basement prediction.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

Brandname said:


> You're not doing your argument any favors with this kind of nonsense.


What I said was backed up. He gives no meaning or validation to his claims. Just hate... 

My argument is backed up with an "All-NBA First Team Defense" selection... what is his backed with?


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## upsanddowns (Dec 29, 2005)

All I can conclude from this thread is that Kobe Bryant is the current best player and Duncan2k5 needs to get an MRI scan on his brain.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> And if you mean defense, obviously not. He got voted All-NBA First Defensive Team for a reason, correct? Seems like you don't know your basketball.


because his defense is overrated. he is still capable of very good defense, be the past couple years he just hasnt put the work into which happens when you carry the bulk of your teams offense on most plays. i even remember lakers fans complaining about his D.




> Kobe is the only person in the league to have the balls to guard other superstars. Not just that, Kobe makes them work for it. I've seen on seperate occasions, T-Mac was lighting up Kobe's team. Second half they put Kobe on him, and the clamps got put on the Mac Man.


i also remember kobe guarding tmac at all in a game last year. even on the last play when the rockets were down by one, they didnt put kobe on him. tmac scored the winning basket on a lay up in that game. i think it was george who guarded tmac all game. i also dont think there is another superstar in the league who is too scared to guard another star for part of the game. for a guy like lebron to play lock down D would be near impossible because of the offensive load he carries. he doesnt have a shaq to ease it or even an odom to initiate the offense. its the same reason kobe's defense the past couple years hasnt been up to par than the 3-peat lakers Kobe. kobe is a more talented defender than lebron when they both put in the same effort. but with kobe putting in less effort on D than he used to, the gap is smaller than you make it out to be.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> What I said was backed up. He gives no meaning or validation to his claims. Just hate...
> 
> My argument is backed up with an "All-NBA First Team Defense" selection... what is his backed with?


Listen, I don't think you're in any place to be calling people out for "hate". You started with the dumb "Lebronze" stuff as soon as people started disagreeing with you. 

Making dumb nicknames to bring down players not named Kobe and insulting other posters makes it look like you're not secure in your argument.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

The "LeBronze" stuff is a joke... ribbing. Don't be so melodramatic.


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## upsanddowns (Dec 29, 2005)

Pimped Out said:


> because his defense is overrated. he is still capable of very good defense, be the past couple years he just hasnt put the work into which happens when you carry the bulk of your teams offense on most plays. i even remember lakers fans complaining about his D.
> 
> 
> 
> i also remember kobe guarding tmac at all in a game last year. even on the last play when the rockets were down by one, they didnt put kobe on him. tmac scored the winning basket on a lay up in that game. i think it was george who guarded tmac all game. i also dont think there is another superstar in the league who is too scared to guard another star for part of the game. for a guy like lebron to play lock down D would be near impossible because of the offensive load he carries. he doesnt have a shaq to ease it or even an odom to initiate the offense. its the same reason kobe's defense the past couple years hasnt been up to par than the 3-peat lakers Kobe. kobe is a more talented defender than lebron when they both put in the same effort. but with kobe putting in less effort on D than he used to, the gap is smaller than you make it out to be.



Where exactly did you find Lakers fans complaining about Kobe's defense? That's completely absurd...the Lakers fans most likely were complaing about Smush Parker's effort on defense. 

And I don't believe Kobe's defense is overrated, last year Kobe's main defensive premise was to be a "roamer". However, when the time came to lockdown a specific player, Kobe accomplished the feat several times. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsCanLulkrc

Just an example were Kobe goes insane on offense with LeBron and another player defending him. while shutting down LeBron in the final minutes.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> The "LeBronze" stuff is a joke... ribbing. Don't be so melodramatic.


No melodrama here. But people just won't take you as seriously because you just come off as a Kobe jocker.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5GPZB0XCqo

Ask LeBron himself...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Brandname said:


> Hughes played 0 games healthy for the Cavs last year. He broke his hand in _preseason_.


Hughes and Flip played 64 games last year. That was 64 games of superior guard play than the Lakers had (outside of Kobe) compared to the Cavs outside of LeBron. I take Hughes/Flip over Smush/Sasha pretty easily.



> Also, I described previously why their supporting casts performed equally bad last year in my previous posts, even though Lebron's teammates were considered more talented.


You used coaching as the reasoning for their supporting casts being equal. Sorry, Phil isn't that good of a coach, no one is. Hell, Jackson himself admitted to costing the Lakers games last season; he litterly said "I cost us a lot of games". Phil did his real coaching in the postseason. His regular season coaching was simply solid (better than Brown, I guess, though I only watched 40-50% Cavs last season). 

You also forgot to mention Flip completely. Hughes despite being injured still put up better numbers than Smush or Sasha, as did Flip obviously. If I have to choose between Hughes/Flip and Smush/Sasha, that's an easy decision. Sasha isn't even worth Eric Snow, to be frank. 



futuristxen said:


> Dude, you moderated the Cavs forum last year! So you should know full well that Hughes didn't play half the season(what's half of 82? It's damnly sure not 36)


You're quibbling over the difference between 36 and 41? Come on now. 



> and the sections he did play he was playing with a badly injured hand that hampered his ability to finish plays and follow through on his jump shot. Last season was arguably Larry Hughes worst season in his entire career, and it was almost entirely due to his hand injury.


OK, but he was still better than Smush or Sasha. Statistically or otherwise. And then there's Flip, which doesn't even make it all that close in terms of guard play (mostly the post-ASB).


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

EHL said:


> Hughes and Flip played 64 games last year. That was 64 games of superior guard play than the Lakers had (outside of Kobe) compared to the Cavs outside of LeBron. I take Hughes/Flip over Smush/Sasha pretty easily.


Except that it wasn't superior guard play. I mean, you can say that they're better players by their names, but they just didn't produce. Flip had a series of games where he played well, but that's about it. He disappeared at the end of the season.

The Cavs had the least productive backcourt in the entire league last year. Dead last.




EHL said:


> You used coaching as the reasoning for their supporting casts being equal. Sorry, Phil isn't that good of a coach, no one is. Hell, Jackson himself admitted to costing the Lakers games last season; he litterly said "I cost us a lot of games". Phil did his real coaching in the postseason. His regular season coaching was simply solid (better than Brown, I guess, though I only watched 40-50% Cavs last season).
> 
> You also forgot to mention Flip completely. Hughes despite being injured still put up better numbers than Smush or Sasha, as did Flip obviously. If I have to choose between Hughes/Flip and Smush/Sasha, that's an easy decision. Sasha isn't even worth Eric Snow, to be frank.


I used coaching as one reason. There were others (injuries, etc.). 

Either way, it doesn't matter the exact reason. The fact remains that both players got nearly identical production out of their supporting casts last year. Whether it's because of coaching, injuries, or whatever else can be up to you to decide.

Eric Snow gives you nothing on offense. He's statistically worse on offense than Ben Wallace, which very few players can claim to be. As I said, Flip gave us a few productive games, but he wasn't with us for very long and he was very inconsistent. Hughes was just terrible last year. It was obvious he was injured because he couldn't make a shot or finish at the rim. He couldn't do much of anything.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Since Kobe plays SG you can compare Odom and Parker to Hughes and Parkers. Hughes hurt his hand in preseason, played a few games and then came back after 2 surgeries to the same finger and not surprisingly sucked. Score one for the Lakers there as Odom played ten times better then any guard for the Cavs last year

The Lakers got hurt by Mihm going down but the Cavs lost AV for half the season as well. In short on paper the Cavs were better then the Lakers last year in terms of talent but that talent barely saw the floor because of injuries


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Brandname said:


> Except that it wasn't superior guard play. I mean, you can say that they're better players by their names, but they just didn't produce. Flip had a series of games where he played well, but that's about it. He disappeared at the end of the season.


Say what? Pretty much anyone who actually watched the Cavs knows Flip balled for them. 



> The Cavs had the least productive backcourt in the entire league last year. Dead last.


I'm sure whereever you learned this, it didn't take LeBron's production into consideration. Guards versus guards last season, production-wise, the Cavs were superior. Here, I'll even list the PERs for you:

Smush: 13.3
Sasha: 8.3

Hughes: 14.0
Flip: 11.9



> I used coaching as one reason. There were others (injuries, etc.).
> 
> Either way, it doesn't matter the exact reason. The fact remains that both players got nearly identical production out of their supporting casts last year. Whether it's because of coaching, injuries, or whatever else can be up to you to decide.


Huh? And how exactly do you conclude they got "nearly identical production"? Link? Stats? Anything besides a statement with absolutely no support?



> Eric Snow gives you nothing on offense. He's statistically worse on offense than Ben Wallace, which very few players can claim to be. As I said, Flip gave us a few productive games, but he wasn't with us for very long and he was very inconsistent. Hughes was just terrible last year. It was obvious he was injured because he couldn't make a shot or finish at the rim. He couldn't do much of anything.


Hughes was very good at the beginning of last season and was by no means "terrible", especially in comparison to the Lakers' guards. The actual _production_ of both team's guards, listed above, proves my case. 



Pioneer10 said:


> Since Kobe plays SG you can compare Odom and Parker to Hughes and Parkers. Hughes hurt his hand in preseason, played a few games and then came back after 2 surgeries to the same finger and not surprisingly sucked. Score one for the Lakers there as Odom played ten times better then any guard for the Cavs last year


If you're going to include Odom as a guard you would have to downshift Kobe to SF and I could easily claim LeBron as point guard. You could shuffle positions all day.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

> If you're going to include Odom as a guard you would have to downshift Kobe to SF and I could easily claim LeBron as point guard. You could shuffle positions all day.


Ok so you put Lebron at PG and guess what the players were around him didn't change: Hughes was still hurt or out and Eric Snow sucks like no other PG in the league (or in the case of Lebron handling the PG duties Eric Snow sucks like no other SG in the league. Please feel free to replace Eric Snow with Damon Jones in the previous two sentences as well)


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> And why are we bashing Lebron's performance in the World's? He played really well. He, Wade, and Melo were our 3 best players, and each one of them won games for us. Lebron for instance pretty much won the Argentina game for us, by nearly notching a triple double, once Coach K belatedly moved him to point guard, where he outplayed who we had been playing there. This year's team was a lot better than the team that put Lebron and Melo on the end of the bench. The medal may have been the same, but the quality of basketball was much greater, and I think more appreciated by the rest of the world than what we showed in the olympics. We had some definitely great moments of basketball in that run. But we came up against a team in Greece who was just flat out better that day than we were. **** happens. Greece was one of the better teams in the world, and they had a great game.
> 
> The team led by Duncan and AI had a much tougher time than this year's team did. Which I think is a fact that is glossed over.
> 
> ...



Yea, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the bolded part. Are you saying that the voting of the top 50 players on this site is more valuable than what the GOAT had to say? Let's be serious here man, some of us know basketball or think we know basketball but there is no way in hell anyone on here knows anything about this game compared to MJ. Not even everyone's collective basketball IQ would be as high as MJ's. To even suggest that this site here or any others like it are smarter than MJ and his opinions are just crazy IMO. Oh, as for the second bolded part, Kobe already had three of what D. Wade has. I'm a fan of both but I thought I'd just let you know. He's got three rings... sure, Shaq led them but don't forget that Kobe's already gotten his chips.


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## KingOfTheHeatians (Jul 22, 2005)

beamer05 said:


> Oh, as for the second bolded part, Kobe already had three of what D. Wade has. I'm a fan of both but I thought I'd just let you know.


What is the Finals MVP tally?


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## KingOfTheHeatians (Jul 22, 2005)

BTW, I could care less about who the mythical "best player" is, as if you win a prize for winning the popular BBB.net vote. The game is played to win championships. And there are only two guys in the league still in their primes who have led their teams to titles as the lead dog and they are Tim Duncan and Dwyane Wade. 

I'm sure Dwyane and Timmy are just devastated by the popular sentiment supporting Bron Bron and Kome.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

beamer05 said:


> Yea, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the bolded part. Are you saying that the voting of the top 50 players on this site is more valuable than what the GOAT had to say?


Yes. Yes I am. I am saying that the posters on this board for the most part know more about NBA basketball than Michael Jordan does. How much time on a given day do you think Jordan discusses basketball? I bet it's not nearly what most of the people on this board do.

Asking Michael Jordan who is the best player in the NBA is like asking Stan Lee who the best comic book writer is.

Both are pretty much clueless icons of an era gone before, and have never shown any sort of connection with the reality of the sport. 



> Oh, as for the second bolded part, Kobe already had three of what D. Wade has. I'm a fan of both but I thought I'd just let you know. He's got three rings... sure, Shaq led them but don't forget that Kobe's already gotten his chips.


Actually Kobe doesn't have what DWade has, and it's the thing that eats at him the most, a championship AND an NBA Finals MVP. It's not just about winning the title for Kobe, it's about being the acknowledged reason/best player on the title team. Wade has that. Few people are convincingly arguing that Wade won the title on Shaq's coattails. That arguement has yet to be erased for Kobe, and I'm sure he'd love to do it. I bet he'd give back two of those Shaq-led titles for one on his own.


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

KingOfTheHeatians said:


> What is the Finals MVP tally?



Read the sentence right after that. I mentioned that Shaq led those Lakers, so I'm well aware of the MVP tally- but Kobe's still got three rings so D. Wade's one. Therefore, Kobe isn't chasing what D. Wade has. I couldn't care less about finals MVP, it's the bigger trophy that really matters...

As for this debate as to who is better I'm obviously biased as Iam one of those "kobe-jockers." I have liked Kobe ever since he came into the league. So, it's hard for anyone to take someone serious when they say Kobe is the best in the league if they are a known Kobe-jocker. Just like I can't take Duncan2k5 serious because he hates Kobe. However, Kobe IS the best player in the league. I'm not going to throw out all these fancy stats and PER and compare supporting casts and all that ****. I think if someone watches basketball objectively they should be able to see that Kobe is the best. The hard part about 'proving' this is that many people have different opinions on how to judge the best- big man, shooting, all-around player, great defender, etc. There is no specific way to judge it. What I do know for sure though is that Michael Jordan is the greatest player I have ever seen play. In my whole life. Some people may not think so, or they may talk about MJ being a bad executive but if he says someone is the best then how can you not believe him? I would think the greatest player of all time would be a good judge of who is the best. Lebron may be on the path to being the best player in today's NBA, maybe even of all time, but for now I still take Kobe and his jock any day of the week.


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

> futuristxen said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. Yes I am. I am saying that the posters on this board for the most part know more about NBA basketball than Michael Jordan does. How much time on a given day do you think Jordan discusses basketball? I bet it's not nearly what most of the people on this board do.
> ...


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## ballistixxx (Jan 24, 2006)

why does every "Kobe is the best" thread reach multiple pages? I mean it's already been discussed thousands of times, what's more to say?


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

ballistixxx said:


> why does every "Kobe is the best" thread reach multiple pages? I mean it's already been discussed thousands of times, what's more to say?



It is kind of funny and ridiculous at the same time. There are just too many Kobe-haters and Jockers out there that feel strongly one way about Kobe possibly being the best. And people who think their favorite player is the best. And the smart people who think they know more about basketball than Michael Jordan contributing to the debate. It really is an old topic that can be somewhat annoying but people have their opinions and try to defend them even though the things that are being mentioned has been said hundreds of times.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

beamer05 said:


> So you think you could go ahead and run an NBA franchise right now better than MJ or any great players?


No. I don't think I'd do a better job than Michael Jordan at running an NBA Franchise. I KNOW I'd do a better job than Michael Jordan. All of the top posters on this site could run an NBA team better than Jordan. He's no better than Isiah Thomas, except Isiah can at least spot talent, and can coach somewhat.

I mean, we aren't talking about Larry Bird as a Gm here. Larry Bird mops the floor with Jordan as a GM. And Magic kills Jordan as a team executive.

Jordan is too busy being Michael Jordan Inc. to actually devote the energy to running a team.


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## chn353 (Mar 12, 2006)

kobe must be the most loved and hated athelete of all time due to his on and off court lifestyles.

haters: will always say kobe is overrated and name another superstar (eg lebron) that is "better" than kobe, or use facts like how kobe did not win the mvp blah blah blah. haters will always be haters, they cant face reality and use stats to cover up their shame on not been able to handle it.

supporters: a bit over-rating kobe. kobe could do a tmac and get injured for a season and then you'll have nothin to say.

overall: kobe is the best in the league right now. although his not the best in every statistical category.. overall he'd dominate everyone. match up anyone on kobe and they'll get thrashed. defensively, kobe is above average...and if you have actually watched a game then you'd know how hard it is to actually get around kobe. so haters stop hating.. kobe will continue to be the best in this league for another 5-6 years


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## MaNs1 (Jun 20, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Lebron got that tatoo not because he thought he was the chosen one, but because he is the chosen one. You don't choose yourself for savoir of basketball role, that gets put upon you(upon your shoulders). That tatoo is an acknowledgement of the huge cross of expecatations that he has to live under. Nothing less than the greatest ever is going to be good enough for the basketball world. And that's not his fault, but it's how it is. His first three years have been failures in his mind. Any season that doesn't end in a championship is a wasted year for him.


I can't understand how i post like this was not mentioned by anybody..????
Its %@%in Hilarious..


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

chn353 said:


> kobe must be the most loved and hated athelete of all time due to his on and off court lifestyles.
> 
> haters: will always say kobe is overrated and name another superstar (eg lebron) that is "better" than kobe, or use facts like how kobe did not win the mvp blah blah blah. haters will always be haters, they cant face reality and use stats to cover up their shame on not been able to handle it.
> 
> ...



*I'm chosenFEW and I approve this post!...


*


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## Elie (Apr 27, 2003)

> overall: kobe is the best in the league right now. although his not the best in every statistical category.. overall he'd dominate everyone. match up anyone on kobe and they'll get thrashed. defensively, kobe is above average...and if you have actually watched a game then you'd know how hard it is to actually get around kobe. so haters stop hating.. kobe will continue to be the best in this league for another 5-6 years


Duncan will never get trashed by Kobe. Duncan would kill the Lakers while Kobe would endure Bowen's defense. 

The best player in the league doesn't have to be a wing player. That's why the best basketball player in the league right now is Duncan.


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

duncan is the best fundamentally sound basketball player......i wont say the best.......

comparing kobe to duncan is crazy anyway,...there's no way duncan and kobe will ever be matched up together in a game......we all saw how amare gave it to duncan a few years back anyway.........if you want to compare, then compare duncan to other big men...like kareem, wilt, russell,.....and compare kobe to guards like MJ, Dr. J, etc....


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## Elie (Apr 27, 2003)

Ok then just say that Kobe is the best GUARD in the game. 
But he is no best player. 
That is my opinion on the subject.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> Ok so you put Lebron at PG and guess what the players were around him didn't change: Hughes was still hurt or out and Eric Snow sucks like no other PG in the league (or in the case of Lebron handling the PG duties Eric Snow sucks like no other SG in the league. Please feel free to replace Eric Snow with Damon Jones in the previous two sentences as well)


I'm not really disagreeing with you about Snow or Jones. But compared to Sasha or....Laron Profit for 25 games, is there really a big difference? Meaning, even if we pretend Hughes and Flip were never on the Cavs last season, weren't the Cavs' perimeter players (outside of LeBron) about equal to the Lakers' perimeter players (outside of Kobe)? Meaning that when you add Flip/Hughes to the mix for 64, that the advantage still goes to the Cavs? LeBron has about as much impact as Kobe anyway, not a big deal or anything, I'm just saying.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

EHL said:


> I'm not really disagreeing with you about Snow or Jones. But compared to Sasha or....Laron Profit for 25 games, is there really a big difference? Meaning, even if we pretend Hughes and Flip were never on the Cavs last season, weren't the Cavs' perimeter players (outside of LeBron) about equal to the Lakers' perimeter players (outside of Kobe)? Meaning that when you add Flip/Hughes to the mix for 64, that the advantage still goes to the Cavs? LeBron has about as much impact as Kobe anyway, not a big deal or anything, I'm just saying.


I agree with this. Even the Cavs worst players are better than the best Lakers players. That's why they are a significantly better team, which I'm sure, I haven't looked, their records indicate. I mean, we're talking about a championship contender vs. a first round at best, also-ran.

Larry Hughes is better than anyone on the Lakers roster after Kobe. Zydrunas proved he was better than Mihm when Mihm was in Cleveland. Gooden and Verejao are both better than Odom. Vlad Radmonovic, Sasha Pavlovic--they sound the same to me. One's an S one's a V.

Cavs should win 72 with their talent, with or without Lebron. The Lakers will be lucky to qualify for the lottery WITH Kobe. I expect by midseason Jerry Buss will just waive the white flag, and change the team name to the Clippers.

I mean, the Cavs are household names. Can you name a Laker after Kobe? I can't, and I watch every laker game that's on TV.


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## chn353 (Mar 12, 2006)

Elie said:


> Ok then just say that Kobe is the best GUARD in the game.
> But he is no best player.
> That is my opinion on the subject.


and im guessing you think duncan is the best?

kobe is about 50 times faster than duncan, duncan is the best post player in the league so far but come on.. kobe not only has post moves he can crossover, drive, posterize, steal, rebound, shoot the 3, fadeaway.. want me to keep going? 

really.. face reality that kobe > all atm

duncan is good, i admit it but look at his teammates.. his got manu, parker, bowen, and finnly while kobe has odom and thats about it. he turned a no chance LA team into a playoffs team and they nearly beat phoenix. im a houston fan and i can even admit that kobe > tmac. accept it and u can move on


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

chn353 said:


> kobe is about 50 times faster than duncan, duncan is the best post player in the league so far but come on.. kobe not only has post moves he can crossover, drive, posterize, steal, rebound, shoot the 3, fadeaway.. want me to keep going?


So Kobe is better than Duncan because he can crossover and posterize? You're right, that's much more important than interior defense, rebounding and low block scoring.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Basketball is a team game and the object is to win the game.The best player is the one who gets you closest to winning everything.Since he's had three championship winning teams built around and teams built around him have contended for the title for the last eight or nine years Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA.Other guys impress people who base their knowledge of basketball on Sportscenter highlights.

If you understand the game and how games are won then you know that wingplayers are not very good at actually impacting the outcome of games.Look at the Lakers,all their fans do is ***** about how horrible everyone except their idols are.On the other hand the Spurs have proven they can win titles by simply placing competent roleplayers around Duncan.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Diable said:


> Basketball is a team game and the object is to win the game.The best player is the one who gets you closest to winning everything.Since he's had three championship winning teams built around and teams built around him have contended for the title for the last eight or nine years Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA.Other guys impress people who base their knowledge of basketball on Sportscenter highlights.


Shouldn't Shaq be the best player in the NBA then?


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Diable said:


> Basketball is a team game and the object is to win the game.The best player is the one who gets you closest to winning everything.Since he's had three championship winning teams built around and teams built around him have contended for the title for the last eight or nine years Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA.Other guys impress people who base their knowledge of basketball on Sportscenter highlights.
> 
> If you understand the game and how games are won then you know that wingplayers are not very good at actually impacting the outcome of games.Look at the Lakers,all their fans do is ***** about how horrible everyone except their idols are.On the other hand the Spurs have proven they can win titles by simply placing competent roleplayers around Duncan.


So are you saying Dirk, Nash and Brand are also better than Kobe and LeBron? I mean, their teams did advance further in the playoffs (thus closer to a championship) than Kobe's Lakers or LeBron's Cavs.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

ralaw said:


> So are you saying Dirk, Nash and Brand are also better than Kobe and LeBron? I mean, their teams did advance further in the playoffs (thus closer to a championship) than Kobe's Lakers or LeBron's Cavs.


All of those guys did as much to help their teams win as Kobe did and you know that very well yourself.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Asking Michael Jordan who is the best player in the NBA is like asking Stan Lee who the best comic book writer is.
> 
> Both are pretty much clueless icons of an era gone before, and have never shown any sort of connection with the reality of the sport.


I disagree. Jordan has a special insight because of how good he was. He was the best, and probably understands why he was the best, and I think he can see a lot of those traits in Bryant.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Diable said:


> All of those guys did as much to help their teams win as Kobe did and you know that very well yourself.


They were the main contributors on teams who also had other good players. I'm not sure how to measure, compare and contrast each players individual contributions to his team. However, I would be willing to bet if Kobe and LeBron had the convience of being surrounded with similar calibur of players who compliment their abilities as players like Dirk, Nash and Brand have, their teams would be as successfull.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Diable said:


> Basketball is a team game and the object is to win the game.The best player is the one who gets you closest to winning everything.Since he's had three championship winning teams built around and teams built around him have contended for the title for the last eight or nine years Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA.Other guys impress people who base their knowledge of basketball on Sportscenter highlights.
> 
> If you understand the game and how games are won then you know that wingplayers are not very good at actually impacting the outcome of games.Look at the Lakers,all their fans do is ***** about how horrible everyone except their idols are.On the other hand the Spurs have proven they can win titles by simply placing competent roleplayers around Duncan.


I must spread reputation around before I give more to Diable.


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## Elie (Apr 27, 2003)

I completely agree with Diable. 
It's a team Game.It's real easy to build a team around Duncan .
Just have to find three point shooters and here you go. 

Kobe , with no lowpost threat has yet to go past the first round of the playoffs.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

ralaw said:


> They were the main contributors on teams who also had other good players. I'm not sure how to measure, compare and contrast each players individual contributions to his team. However, I would be willing to bet if Kobe and LeBron had the convience of being surrounded with similar calibur of players who compliment their abilities as players like Dirk, Nash and *Brand *have, their teams would be as successfull.


Umm Brand? The Cavs went as far as the Clippers did last year and had a better record with less overall talent.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

People are arguing two entirely different things here. Duncan being easier to build around doesn't automatically make him the best individual player in the game. In general bigman are ideally easier to build around, but does this make them better basketball players? With that logic Yao Ming should be the second best player in the league. Oh wait, he hasn't actually won anything of value when leading a team. Maybe, when the Rockets start winning we can than give him the same label as Duncan.

Also, Duncan being easier to build around really is an argument using hindsight. It's to easy to assume this now because he's won championships. However, if Duncan had went to the Celtics his legacy might not be what it is today and people wouldn't be saying this. Team success isn't always a clear indication of who is the best player in the league. The fact of the matter is their isn't a single player who is the best and their hasn't been since Jordan was in his prime. However, much of this debate can be attributed to Jordan's individual brillance, because we became accustomed to being able to label the best player and this desire has only carried over into today's game.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> Umm Brand? The Cavs went as far as the Clippers did last year and had a better record with less overall talent.


I don't feel a need to form an arugment because this isn't my stance, I was simply asking Diable a sarcastc question in response to his argument. However, I'm sure someone would be willing to tell you that the West is a better overall conference than the East.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Kobe Bryant is the best one on one player in the league. Tim Duncan is the best player in the league. Simple as that. The fact this went to 10 pages is baffling


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Why are people so quick to say that any player in the league currently is the best "hands down"? Nobody is dominating the rest of the league like Jordan did in his prime.

I think Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, and Wade all have a significant argument as to why their the best player in the league, and yes it is very close. This thread wouldn't have gone on this long if it was any of these players hands down. I think it's a testament to the number of great players we have today. 

Each of these players brings something different to the table. Each has his own strengths and weaknesses. None of these players is better than the others at everything. No reason to pretend there's a clear cut best.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

EHL said:


> If you're going to include Odom as a guard you would have to downshift Kobe to SF and I could easily claim LeBron as point guard. You could shuffle positions all day.


but it silly to compare the guard help that the 2 get without taking into account position. Lebron has more help from his starting guards because there are 2 of them. comparing hughes and snow to parker is unfair. it makes more sense to compare the 1-3 on each team minus the superstar.


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## Unique (Apr 13, 2005)

> Love me or hate me , its one or the other


True words spoken by Kobe


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## KingOfTheHeatians (Jul 22, 2005)

Agree that it's silly to say anyone is "hands down" the best out there. Several players have legitimate claim to that title. You can say D-Wade is the best, Kobe is the best, LeBron is the best or Tim Duncan is the best, and none of those statements would be wrong. 

LeBron is the most talented, Duncan the most accomplished, Kobe the most polished, and Wade's the reigning champ.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

chn353 said:


> kobe must be the most loved and hated athelete of all time due to his on and off court lifestyles.
> 
> haters: will always say kobe is overrated and name another superstar (eg lebron) that is "better" than kobe, or use facts like how kobe did not win the mvp blah blah blah. haters will always be haters, they cant face reality and use stats to cover up their shame on not been able to handle it.
> 
> ...


that's why he is not the best in the league...basketball is a 5 on 5 sport. plus lebron whould beat him 1 on 1. so would t-mac. stop overrating him. ive seen friggin luther head light up kobe. ive seen so many guards cross kobe and he never recovers...he just screams at his big men for help. and lebron's defense is waay underrated. lebron shut down ppl before, but ppl are so accustomed to saying he has no defense that they dont want to change their opinion. what's funny to me is that when lebron was playing "roam defense" ppl said that is not good defense (and i agree). but when kobe plays roam defense, hee is the best defensive star in the league. give me a friggin break. he cant guard anyone worth anything. the game where he had the stal against lebron...look who had the better stats. lebron lit kobe up. and laker fans a;ways bring up lebron sayinf kobe is the best in the league from like 2 years ago. for one, lebron isnt going to admit he is the best, for another...THAT WAS THEN!!! kobe is the highest scorer in the league. how can he be the best? he isnt the most clutch, his defense is overrated, he cant rebound, he cant make ppl better, he cant pass, all he can do is shoot a lot. why cant ppl see this? the best player in the NBA is not one dimensional. kobe is a scorer...not even the best IMO. lebron is a better scorer than kobe is. he just takes less shots. ppl seem to forget that lebron scored 3 less ppg than kobe, while murdering him in every other stat


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## Elie (Apr 27, 2003)

> People are arguing two entirely different things here. Duncan being easier to build around doesn't automatically make him the best individual player in the game. In general bigman are ideally easier to build around, but does this make them better basketball players? With that logic Yao Ming should be the second best player in the league. Oh wait, he hasn't actually won anything of value when leading a team. Maybe, when the Rockets start winning we can than give him the same label as Duncan.


I don't agree with you when you say it's easier to build around big man. 
Steve Nash is certainly not a big man , but Phoenix seems to have no problem to build around him . The fact is a big man is in general more valuable than a guard. 
And everybody knows that normally. So that's why i'm frustrated to see people talking about Kobe and overlooking Tim Duncan. 
He may have scored 81pts in a game , but when he is 2 blocks shy from a quadruple double in a championship game (while his opponents is 3/17) , he can claim to be the best current player. 
Duncan always find a way to be effective on a game .Kobe scored 1 points in the second half of a Game 7.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Brandname said:


> You're fooling yourself if you think Kobe doesn't do the same thing.


Every player takes the occasional play off but Lebron hardly ever competes defensively, he rarely ever shows the grit to say I'm gonna man up on this superstar player and try and slow him down Kobe does and has done that his whole career. he did it to MJ when MJ was still a great player back in 98. 

lebron just coasts and plays the passing lanes. 

Again MJ see's it he knows Lebron has not shown the competitiveness to take the challenege. 

Kobe has the grit and Mj se's it.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

ralaw said:


> I don't feel a need to form an arugment because this isn't my stance, I was simply asking Diable a sarcastc question in response to his argument. However, I'm sure someone would be willing to tell you that the West is a better overall conference than the East.


 So that negates the fact the Cavs had a better record and the Clippers around Brand are significantly better. Duncan IS the best player in the league but both Kobe and Lebron are better players then Brand and Nash


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

HB said:


> Kobe Bryant is the best one on one player in the league. Tim Duncan is the best player in the league. Simple as that. The fact this went to 10 pages is baffling


That's not entirely true either, because Duncan has been known to give clinics from the low post. If anything Kobe is the best one-on-one player on the perimeter, but even that is debatable. The real fact is there isn't a fact.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

thacarter said:


> Yup as much as i hate Kobe whenever he plays the nets,theres no doubt hes the best guard in the game...where are the heat fans?


Here's one - It's a good thing I have no problem disagreeing with Mr. Jordan's opinion.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

thacarter said:


> Yup as much as i hate Kobe whenever he plays the nets,theres no doubt hes the best guard in the game...where are the heat fans?


I have zero issues with people's opinions that Kobe and Lebron are better then Wade, because with players so close, it is a matter of opinion....and stats place Kobe/Lebron/Wade at around the same level........

now how I would rank them...individually Kobe has the most talent, on offense and defense, Lebron the best all around player (assists, rebounds), and Wade the one who knows how to use his skills to the highest potential, the smartest of the 3. Depends on what you want, as talent means as much as the results they produce, and all 3 of these guys produce


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> that's why he is not the best in the league...basketball is a 5 on 5 sport. plus lebron whould beat him 1 on 1. so would t-mac. stop overrating him. ive seen friggin luther head light up kobe. ive seen so many guards cross kobe and he never recovers...he just screams at his big men for help. and lebron's defense is waay underrated. lebron shut down ppl before, but ppl are so accustomed to saying he has no defense that they dont want to change their opinion. what's funny to me is that when lebron was playing "roam defense" ppl said that is not good defense (and i agree). but when kobe plays roam defense, hee is the best defensive star in the league. give me a friggin break. he cant guard anyone worth anything. the game where he had the stal against lebron...look who had the better stats. lebron lit kobe up. and laker fans a;ways bring up lebron sayinf kobe is the best in the league from like 2 years ago. for one, lebron isnt going to admit he is the best, for another...THAT WAS THEN!!! kobe is the highest scorer in the league. how can he be the best? he isnt the most clutch, his defense is overrated, he cant rebound, he cant make ppl better, he cant pass, all he can do is shoot a lot. why cant ppl see this? the best player in the NBA is not one dimensional. kobe is a scorer...not even the best IMO. lebron is a better scorer than kobe is. he just takes less shots. ppl seem to forget that lebron scored 3 less ppg than kobe, while murdering him in every other stat


again, while PER isn't the end-all of player evaluation, it is the best all-inclusive offense/rebounding stat. and kobe and lebron were virtually even in PER. so, please stop classifying kobe as only a scorer. it's only you who believes that, so maybe it's time to stop asking everyone else to see what you see, but instead try harder to see what everyone else sees.


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## upsanddowns (Dec 29, 2005)

Elie said:


> I completely agree with Diable.
> It's a team Game.It's real easy to build a team around Duncan .
> Just have to find three point shooters and here you go.
> 
> Kobe , with no lowpost threat has yet to go past the first round of the playoffs.



No low post threat? Kobe isn't isolated to one point of scoring...he's a freakin' shooting guard. He CAN score from the post, fadeaways, 3 point land, mid-range, hell from anywhere. 


Has yet to go past the first round of the playoffs? Buddy, he has THREE Nba championships. You can BS all you want, but Shaq would never have gotten his three rings without Kobe, Vice verca. Kobe's numbers via seasons and playoffs were invaluable to the Lakers...haters just underestimate what really happened. I guess Kobe leading the Lakers to victory against the Pacers in the finals when Shaq was out and injured is probably nothing too significant in your mind. 

Tell me the next time Shaq wins a championship when he isn't surrounded by an all-star two way guard, a championship worthy coach, and a deep veteran bench.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

SPMJ said:


> What matters is how these supposedly _proven_ players _performed_ last season. Z was no better than Odom. In fact, he got worse as the season progressed while the opposite happened w/ Odom. Z's play was nothing short of plain awful at the end of last year. Nobody in their mind would've taken him over Odom but I'm still willing to call it a draw.
> 
> Statistically Eric Snow was the WORST starting PG in the league last season. If you wanna hear more abt Snow's incompetence just visit any Cavs board on the net. I don't know any fans who hated a player on their team as much as Cleveland fans hated Snow. Snow's a veteran but that's where the positives end. He can't guard anyone relatively quick. Can't shoot and is an offensive liability. He's a vet, sure. But the only thing he's _proven_ lately is how much he sucks.
> 
> ...



No no please not lets compare Z to odom. Hughes fit that bill paired with Murray. Z is still a top 10 center kwame hasn't been to this point. Gooden was more proven than any Lakers pf other than Odom, Snow was still despite being limited better than Smush was last season especially in the playoffs when* Smush melted down who on that lakers bench was as good as marshall. 

Lebron was not better than Wade on team USA and was obviously not better than melo but he's supposed to be the best in the league is that your argument. Kobe wouldn't have taken a backseat to those guys at all. Played his best D to date mhen he was getting murdered by the easiest play in the playbook the pick and roll by greece yeah okay. 

Kobe's accomplshed everything Lebron has and much more, Kobe plays defense and has EXPERIENCE somehow having a complete game and experience means little to some but MJ in his anaylysis took that into account. 

Lebron lacks the competitveness and grit thats why his defense lacks he wants to play for show. Kobe plays hard.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

jazzy1 said:


> Kobe wouldn't have taken a backseat to those guys at all.


And that's why it's maybe not a good idea to put Kobe on Team USA. We need guys that are willing to sacrifice their ego and stats for the greater good of the team, and if Kobe, like you say, won't take a backseat then he has no place on USA basketball. Fortunately for all of us, Kobe isn't as immature as you paint him, and he would very likely take a backseat at times on Team USA, because Kobe, unlike you, respects Wade, Melo, and Lebron. Didn't Kobe himself say Melo was the toughest guard in the West? I actually think Kobe and Lebron would play really well off each other, since they are so interchangable in terms of passer/finisher.



> Lebron lacks the competitveness and grit thats why his defense lacks he wants to play for show. Kobe plays hard.


Yeah that's what it looked like in the playoffs. I know the first thing everyone said was "Wow, he sure does lack competiveness. How many games did he will his sad sack team to victory in? They were supposed to be swept by the Pistons, and he was the main reason that series went to 7.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

LeBron's team wasn't a sad sack of crap...

Yes, LeBron led them, and took them pretty damn far at that...

I personally don't think LeBron lacks 'competitivness'... but he did dissapoint me in those regards in the World Championships... which is why I have been so bitter towards him as of late. LeBron doesn't posses certain intangibles that Jordan and Kobe have to be such good defenders. You have to be mean on the basketball court in order to be a good defender. LeBron, for as good as he is, is kind of soft.

But the Cavs were a much better team than the Lakers, excluding both main superstars. Not even close.

Thing is though, you put that Laker team in the East, and they easily would've been a top 5 seed.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> Thing is though, you put that Laker team in the East, and they easily would've been a top 5 seed.


Not if you go by their win % against the EC last season.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

Team USA desperately need Kobe. Kobe's game fits better in International style than either Wade or LeBron. He has a greater understanding of it. If LeBron was as great as advertised, and has the ability to plug holes when things are needed, with 3 stars of that 'stature' on Team USA, they never should've lost. Makes me think there was alittle bit too much selfless-ness at times. Kobe would definetely play un-selfish with all those stars, but if things went wrong, and they needed a gunner for hire, take what Melo did for Team USA in terms of offense, and bringing them back and take that performance and put it on steroids... and that's what Kobe would've done. He would've been killing those teams from 3, which is like a mid-range shot for Kobe. With that reduced line... It would've been scary. They needed Kobe's veteran leadership, un-relenting self belief, and ferociousness... those characteristics, LeBron simply doesn't have. And those aren't something you learn, those traits you're born with.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> Not if you go by their win % against the EC last season.


That % surely doesn't hold water, seeing as if they actually were playing in the East, they would meet all Eastern Teams 4 times a year, instead of 2... therefore they would have more familiarity with them. Their winning % against Eastern teams LAST year, isn't an accurate measure of how well they might be able to do if they were transferred into the significantly weaker Eastern Conference. Familarity, repeatition all play apart in that.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Well then Kobe needs to show up for Team USA. He has yet to represent his country, Lebron has done it now for two summers in a row. I just question whether winning the gold is a priority for Kobe. He always seems to do something that takes him out of it. I mean, why didn't he take care of his knee earlier in the summer so he could play for his country? Wade came in from the NBA finals with an injured hand and played the whole tournament.

I find it hard to find fault with the guys who do show up and take the criticism. Playing for USA basketball is one of the most thankless jobs in all of sports. And Wade, Melo, and Lebron are in it for the long haul.

I don't doubt that Kobe would have been an asset to Team USA, but you're finding fault with Lebron's performance in a tournament where they only lost one game and he played really well, well it just reaks of fanatical homerism.

Team USA would not have had won even the bronze if not for the contributions of Lebron, Wade, or Melo. All pitched in and won games almost by themselves. Lebron's game like that was the Bronze medal game against Argentina, where he threated a triple double. Melo had that second half against Italy. And Wade had a few games where he pitched in as well.

The problem was the role players not the superstars, bub.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> That % surely doesn't hold water, seeing as if they actually were playing in the East, they would meet all Eastern Teams 4 times a year, instead of 2... therefore they would have more familiarity with them. Their winning % against Eastern teams LAST year, isn't an accurate measure of how well they might be able to do if they were transferred into the significantly weaker Eastern Conference. Familarity, repeatition all play apart in that.



So you are basing your feelings on this notion entirely on your gut notion that the Lakers are better suited to play the East than the West?

You are aware that most of the best wing players in the NBA all play in the East, right? Kobe wouldn't get four games of Bonzi Wells and whatever sad sack the Nuggets put out at SG. He would get four games of Wade, VC, Pierce, Lebron, AI--hell even guys like Stephen Jackson can ball. The West is a forward dominated conference, but out East it's all guards and small forwards.

Hell even the worse teams like the Hawks are pretty much all small forwards and shooting guards to put on Kobe and have him guard.

I think there is a reason why the Lakers do better in the West than the East, I think they are built to play better against the Western conference teams than the East.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Oh and also the Central division may be the toughest division in basketball. So if Kobe went east you better pray he didn't end up there.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Well then Kobe needs to show up for Team USA. He has yet to represent his country


Each year he has gone out for the team, something has got in his way that is out of his control. 2003, knee injury... 2004, rape case... 2006, a knee injury, in which he has yet to come back from. He wants to be out there. He can't control that stuff.



> Lebron has done it now for two summers in a row.


And what has resulted from it?



> I just question whether winning the gold is a priority for Kobe.


Is it for LeBron? He is a two time, two time, two time Bronze champion. This is the same guy, who virtually looked like he didn't care about it, just a few weeks ago on the Letterman show. That or he was just trying to cover up his second failure.



> I mean, why didn't he take care of his knee earlier in the summer so he could play for his country?


Umm, he finished in May with NBA ball. Took 2 weeks off, started his regime again, and noticed something was still wrong with his knee. He played with the nagging injury all season (wearing a knee sleeve on his right knee, where he couldn't explode off his knee), noticed that the rest hadn't made it better... so he scheduled surgery. Even if he got the surgery right after his season ended, he still wouldn't have had time to play for Team USA. He had the surgery back in mid July, and he still hasn't played yet. That's 3 months and counting. It may have been worse then what he was telling us. He was a champ, and fought through it.

As for any athlete, you want to do all you can to avoid any kind of surgery. Kobe followed directions, and took pre-cautionary rest, to see if the knee would get better on its own first. Do you know of procedures like this? Have you ever played sports, and been injured? This is procedure.



> Wade came in from the NBA finals with an injured hand and played the whole tournament.


A minor injured hand, is a heck of alot worse than a knee in basketball, which you can't explode off of, thus reducing your game, and an injury that causes much pain... so he had to get surgery. World of difference. Wade had a minor issue with his thumb.



> I find it hard to find fault with the guys who do show up and take the criticism.


Kobe would've been there as well. But the criticism is just in some cases. Do you think Kobe purposely didn't show up? Is that what you're saying? He has been dying to play for Team USA since 2002. Injuries, surgery, and a threat of life incarciration have at times prevented him from being there. He can't help that. He wouldn't have accepted (as the first man invited) to be on Team USA if he didn't care.



> Playing for USA basketball is one of the most thankless jobs in all of sports. And Wade, Melo, and Lebron are in it for the long haul.


It isn't if you win. Like you should.



> I don't doubt that Kobe would have been an asset to Team USA, but you're finding fault with Lebron's performance in a tournament where they only lost one game and he played really well, well it just reaks of fanatical homerism.


You saying LeBron played well in the tournament, is homerism at its finest. He wasn't even the second best player out there. Alot of people criticized him out there. He looked quite ordinary, for such an 'extroirdinary' basketball star. He was a role player at best out there. He showed a visual lack of effort at times.



> Team USA would not have had won even the bronze if not for the contributions of Lebron, Wade, or Melo.


You mean without Melo... Melo literally saved them from defeat early in the tourney. LeBron never did anything like that. And he had plenty of chances. He didn't steup up in the Greece game, where they down virtually the entire game. He sat back in the cut, and got punked.



> All pitched in and won games almost by themselves.


Wrong, LeBron and Wade never won games by themselves. That prestige only goes to one, Carmelo Anthony.



> Lebron's game like that was the Bronze medal game against Argentina, where he threated a triple double.


Yeah, like Wade and his points that game, which came at the end when Argentina had thrown in the towel, and didn't care anymore. Argentina realized it didn't matter. LeBron and Wade padded the hell out of their stats that game. Team USA kept their starters in the entire time. It was the 3rd place game. No one remembers #2, let alone #3.



> Melo had that second half against Italy.


Yeah, he was the only one who had the balls to pull Team USA out of the gutter for a win. He almost did it against Greece as well... him and Hinrich, cause no one else was stepping up to the plate for that one either.



> And Wade had a few games where he pitched in as well.


Yeah, off horrible shooting percentages, and the lack of the ability to function against a zone defense. No jumpshot to speak of. I remember him driving into the lane, falling, not getting NBA calls, then crying like a girl. I even remember him getting his **** stuffed in one of the games, by a smaller player.



> The problem was the role players not the superstars, bub.


No, buckwheat...The role players were praised as the few people holding the thing together. The best players from Team USA were:
Melo
Brand
Hinrich
Howard
Johnson
Battier

Most dissapointing:
Paul
James
Wade

Neither played up to their "abilities" in the NBA.

You obviously, weren't watching. Numbers don't tell the whole story. The role players, especially the ones I mentioned, were the ones who kept that thing together. Hinrich and his great defense, and ability to knock down shots; Joe Johnson, and his versatility, selfless-ness; Howard and his rebounding and putbacks... James was a dissapointment. Through and through. You would however know that, if you weren't a raging James homer.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Brandname said:


> Why are people so quick to say that any player in the league currently is the best "hands down"? Nobody is dominating the rest of the league like Jordan did in his prime.


This is another hyperbolic statement that means absolutely nothing...

People were craving after Jordan dropped 60something on the Celtics in a playoff game WHERE the Bulls got swept and Jordan, at that particular game, was helped by the refs to get it into overtime... Yeah, i know... People don't remember that. But more astonishing is a player averaging 35 ppg in a season, scoring 81 pts in a game (something Jordan never dreamed of doing) and still keep singing the "he ain't dominating" tune... 

Screw it, man, give Kobe a Scottie Pippen and a Horace Grant/Dennis Rodman and THEN, but just THEN, compare...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Samurai of Swoosh said:


> Each year he has gone out for the team, something has got in his way that is out of his control. 2003, knee injury... 2004, rape case... 2006, a knee injury, in which he has yet to come back from. He wants to be out there. He can't control that stuff.


I know how he can control the rape case, stop trying to have sex with random hotel workers, that might help.



> And what has resulted from it?


Hey look, you missed the point of what I said. Fancy that.



> Is it for LeBron? He is a two time, two time, two time Bronze champion. This is the same guy, who virtually looked like he didn't care about it, just a few weeks ago on the Letterman show. That or he was just trying to cover up his second failure.


The bronze medal was not a failure. They played well. Maybe you are one of those guys who don't believe that the international game is any good. But if you compare how this team did to the last two teams, it was a marked improvement. It's overly simplistic to just equate Bronze Medal to Bronze Medal. But then again, coming from you, simplistic analysis is kind of a given.



> Umm, he finished in May with NBA ball. Took 2 weeks off, started his regime again, and noticed something was still wrong with his knee. He played with the nagging injury all season (wearing a knee sleeve on his right knee, where he couldn't explode off his knee), noticed that the rest hadn't made it better... so he scheduled surgery. Even if he got the surgery right after his season ended, he still wouldn't have had time to play for Team USA. He had the surgery back in mid July, and he still hasn't played yet. That's 3 months and counting. It may have been worse then what he was telling us. He was a champ, and fought through it.


This is of course another reason why Kobe isn't the best player in the league right now. He has bad knees, and apparently can't play. Maybe he's the new Bernard King? He's been having Knee trouble more and more as he has gotten older. I'd be concerned if I was you.



> Kobe would've been there as well. But the criticism is just in some cases. Do you think Kobe purposely didn't show up? Is that what you're saying? He has been dying to play for Team USA since 2002. Injuries, surgery, and a threat of life incarciration have at times prevented him from being there. He can't help that. He wouldn't have accepted (as the first man invited) to be on Team USA if he didn't care.


I'm just saying, are we ever going to move from "If Kobe were there" to "This is what Kobe did" with regards to Team USA? If he gets injured or rapes someone again, he won't play for USA basketball ever in his career. And we can play what ifs all day, but we still have no idea how Kobe would have fit into the team dynamic. All you have is speculation.



> It isn't if you win. Like you should.


It's fun to say should, but single elimination tournaments don't always work out the way they should, especially once the talent level is at a certain level of parity. Just ask George Mason about should.



> You saying LeBron played well in the tournament, is homerism at its finest. He wasn't even the second best player out there. Alot of people criticized him out there. He looked quite ordinary, for such an 'extroirdinary' basketball star. He was a role player at best out there. He showed a visual lack of effort at times.


Prove that Lebron didn't play well. There's no statistical evidence to back that assertion up. And in several key games he stepped up and made the play that got Team USA the win. He hit the game winner against Brazil. He shut down Dirk against Germany. And he was the best player on the floor against Argentina in the game that got them the bronze medal.

20/9/7 in 30 minutes against one of the top 3 teams in the world, on 7/12 shooting?

Yeah, he really stunk it up out there.




> Yeah, like Wade and his points that game, which came at the end when Argentina had thrown in the towel, and didn't care anymore. Argentina realized it didn't matter. LeBron and Wade padded the hell out of their stats that game. Team USA kept their starters in the entire time. It was the 3rd place game. No one remembers #2, let alone #3.


That's just factually not true.



> Yeah, he was the only one who had the balls to pull Team USA out of the gutter for a win. He almost did it against Greece as well... him and Hinrich, cause no one else was stepping up to the plate for that one either.


Watch the end of the Greece game again.



> Yeah, off horrible shooting percentages, and the lack of the ability to function against a zone defense.


Hey, Alice, come out of your rabbit hole. Lebron had the second highest shooting percenrtage on Team USA.

God, nothing you say about the worlds is at all based in fact. Lebron had one bad shooting game, and it was the game Melo went off in, so for some reason people use that game against him. But over the course of the whole tournament, he scored efficiently, and he led the team in assists. While you were idolizing Melo's scoring, a deeper basketball fan might have noted who the best passer/playmaker on the team was.

There was only one player on Team USA who started every single game in the tournament. His name was Lebron James. So obviously the people who were closest to the game, didn't share your opinion that Lebron was the most disapointing.

And why is this even the bulkhead of an arguement? We've got nothing to compare this with in Kobe Bryant. He's never represented his country even once. So we have no idea what he'd do. And when he does play, he's going to be playing with Lebron James. So all we'll be able to tell is whether or not Kobe is a better player than whoever Team USA kicks off to make room for Kobe.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> This is another hyperbolic statement that means absolutely nothing...
> 
> People were craving after Jordan dropped 60something on the Celtics in a playoff game WHERE the Bulls got swept and Jordan, at that particular game, was helped by the refs to get it into overtime... Yeah, i know... People don't remember that. But more astonishing is a player averaging 35 ppg in a season, scoring 81 pts in a game (something Jordan never dreamed of doing) and still keep singing the "he ain't dominating" tune...
> 
> Screw it, man, give Kobe a Scottie Pippen and a Horace Grant/Dennis Rodman and THEN, but just THEN, compare...


 Now who's coming off as hyperbolic? By this stage of his career Jordan (early 90's) was the cream in his prime: Bird back was done and Magic got stuck with HIV. Neither Kobe, Wade, or Lebron are "clearly" above each other at this point. Then you have a whole slew of perimeter players who are similar calibre to Drexler like Pierce, TMac, VC, etc. Statiscally, team impact, etc. there is just a slew of top swingmen and 2/3's who are playing at a high level. It might be because there is more talent now in the NBA in the perimeter spots but Jordan was clearly head and shoulders above everyone else which no perimter player in the league currently is


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> I'm just saying, are we ever going to move from "If Kobe were there" to "This is what Kobe did" with regards to Team USA? If he gets injured *or rapes someone again*, he won't play for USA basketball ever in his career. And we can play what ifs all day, but we still have no idea how Kobe would have fit into the team dynamic. All you have is speculation.


Vincent Gallo is ashamed of you for saying that.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

upsanddowns said:


> No low post threat? Kobe isn't isolated to one point of scoring...he's a freakin' shooting guard. He CAN score from the post, fadeaways, 3 point land, mid-range, hell from anywhere.
> 
> 
> Has yet to go past the first round of the playoffs? Buddy, he has THREE Nba championships. You can BS all you want, but Shaq would never have gotten his three rings without Kobe, Vice verca. Kobe's numbers via seasons and playoffs were invaluable to the Lakers...haters just underestimate what really happened. I guess Kobe leading the Lakers to victory against the Pacers in the finals when Shaq was out and injured is probably nothing too significant in your mind.
> ...


and you tell me the next time kobe wins a championship...PERIOD


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

why do you guys waste so much time arguing back and forth? kobe and lebron are both good, just leave it at that.

now go outside and play.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Vincent Gallo is ashamed of you for saying that.


Vincent Gallo has never raped anyone or been accused of it in a court of law by anyone that I know about.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

CiMa said:
 

> why do you guys waste so much time arguing back and forth? kobe and lebron are both good, just leave it at that.
> 
> now go outside and play.


I agree they are both good. My arguement has more been with the Kobe is easily the best without hesitation part. I think on any given day Lebron, Wade, and Kobe are interchangable. And when healthy Tim Duncan is a huge part of that discussion as well.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

CiMa said:


> why do you guys waste so much time arguing back and forth? kobe and lebron are both good, just leave it at that.
> 
> *now go outside and play.*


Some of us (that DOESN'T include Duncan2k5) have seen enough ball and are enough enthusiastics about ball that we like to discuss... well, ball...

Since you don't maybe YOU should go outside and play...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Vincent Gallo has never raped anyone or been accused of it in a court of law by anyone that I know about.


Interesting... Did Kobe ever face a" court of law"?

But that's not the point. The point is that your stance of "Kobe the rapist" is anedoctic. So the guy was never guilty of something. Still you bring it up. Is that all you got?


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Some of us (that DOESN'T include Duncan2k5) have seen enough ball and are enough enthusiastics about ball that we like to discuss... well, ball...
> 
> Since you don't maybe YOU should go outside and play...


i do like to discuss, but i can't go back and forth like you guys do anymore. no one is ever going to agree, thus tis a waste of time IMO. especially with people who are clearly blind haters like samurai man.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> This is another hyperbolic statement that means absolutely nothing...
> 
> People were craving after Jordan dropped 60something on the Celtics in a playoff game WHERE the Bulls got swept and Jordan, at that particular game, was helped by the refs to get it into overtime... Yeah, i know... *People don't remember that. But more astonishing is a player averaging 35 ppg in a season, scoring 81 pts in a game * (something Jordan never dreamed of doing) and still keep singing the "he ain't dominating" tune...
> 
> Screw it, man, give Kobe a Scottie Pippen and a Horace Grant/Dennis Rodman and THEN, but just THEN, compare...


how is that moe astonishing??? do you even know who jordan was? go look at the stats for his *37PPG SEASON*, then look at kobe's last season. not even CLOSE. kobe isnt in jordan's tier, and it is too late for him to ever be. 10 years in the league and he still doesnt get "it". lebron and dwade have been in the L for 3 years and they are WAY more smarter than kobe.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

wow.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

CiMa said:


> i do like to discuss, but i can't go back and forth like you guys do anymore. no one is ever going to agree, thus tis a waste of time IMO. especially with people who are clearly blind haters like samurai man.


It ain't a waste of time when we can bring back and forth ARGUMENTS.

And yeah, i too get riled up with blind haters/jockriders.

But you take the good with the bad. Noone is expecting to CONVINCE teh irrational poster. Only to provide good debate.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> how is that moe astonishing??? do you even know who jordan was? go look at the stats for his *37PPG SEASON*, then look at kobe's last season. not even CLOSE. kobe isnt in jordan's tier, and it is too late for him to ever be. 10 years in the league and he still doesnt get "it". lebron and dwade have been in the L for 3 years and they are WAY more smarter than kobe.


Talking about irrational posters...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Interesting... Did Kobe ever face a" court of law"?


Charges were brought. Did you miss out on that summer?
I don't think Vince has been charged with rape before.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Charges were brought. Did you miss out on that summer?


That was not the question.

Did Kobe Bryant face a "court of law"? Or was it a "cry wolf" case?


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> That was not the question.
> 
> Did Kobe Bryant face a "court of law"? Or was it a "cry wolf" case?


Definitely "cry wolf" coming from the chick that tried to dig for gold in Kobe's pockets.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Some of us (that DOESN'T include Duncan2k5) have seen enough ball and are enough enthusiastics about ball that we like to discuss... well, ball...
> 
> Since you don't maybe YOU should go outside and play...


Actually this topic has been beaten like a dead horse. I haven't even been here very often this offseason and I still see at least one of these threads that suggest Kobe is the best, every single time I come here. It's the same thing everytime. The Kobe/Laker fans proclaim Kobe the best player in the NBA, several non-Laker fans fall in line, the few others who disagree are labeled Kobe haters accordingly. It's an endless discussion, the only factual evidence anyone has to backup any claim is player statistics. But statistics aren't the only contributing factor to a player's greatness. Greatness can be determined in a lot of ways. Kobe, Wade, and Lebron all do somethings better than one another. The best thing to do is agree that they're all great players, and neither one is more great than the other, which is the only level playing ground. Of course that will never happen, even though it makes the most sense. Anyways, enjoy your eternal debate on the matter.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Interesting... Did Kobe ever face a" court of law"?




















I dunno. You tell me.


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> I dunno. You tell me.


Still, the chick that's suing him is still crying wolf. That's the fact.


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## Wilmatic2 (Oct 30, 2005)

Whatever comes out of Money's mouth must be true.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

4BiddenKnight said:


> Still, the chick that's suing him is still crying wolf. That's the fact.


If Kobe hadn't had sex with her in the first place, there would be nothing to cry wolf about. He put himself in a compromised situation by cheating on his wife with someone he didn't know. If you play with fire, you might get burned. I don't buy the whole "kobe didn't do anything" line, because he did do something. He was in control of the situation, he has to have some accountability on that front.

If people are going to ***** about Stephen Jackson being at a strip club, then why not Kobe's penis being out in a Colorado Hotel room with some girl he didn't know?


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the case settled out of court for a monetary amount? Now, I'm not saying he did or didn't rape the ***** but that sounds like someone who is just out for the money. Anyway, I don't see how this has anything to do with his basketball playing- he actually played really well on the days he went from court to court.


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> If Kobe hadn't had sex with her in the first place, there would be nothing to cry wolf about. He put himself in a compromised situation by cheating on his wife with someone he didn't know. If you play with fire, you might get burned. I don't buy the whole "kobe didn't do anything" line, because he did do something. He was in control of the situation, he has to have some accountability on that front.
> 
> If people are going to ***** about Stephen Jackson being at a strip club, then why not Kobe's penis being out in a Colorado Hotel room with some girl he didn't know?



Oh get off of it man. You know that lots of athletes in all sports do this type of **** he just so happened to bang the one ***** that was willing to cry wolf to get money. Don't act like hundreds of other players haven't done it. Hell, Lebron has probably done it too.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

beamer05 said:


> Oh get off of it man. You know that lots of athletes in all sports do this type of **** he just so happened to bang the one ***** that was willing to cry wolf to get money. Don't act like hundreds of other players haven't done it. Hell, Lebron has probably done it too.


Yeah hundreds of other players do do it. But they are obviously a lot more careful about it. It's about not putting yourself in the wrong situation. I mean, if Kobe's not careful about that, then what else is he not careful about? Are we looking at in addition to the next Michael Jordan, the next Magic Johnson, away from the court?


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## upsanddowns (Dec 29, 2005)

duncan2k5 said:


> and you tell me the next time kobe wins a championship...PERIOD



Personal attacks are not allowed. That's the freakin' point, Personal attacks are not allowed. like you bag on Kobe all the time by stating "He rode Shaq ALLLLLL the way". Shaq needs a dominant two way guard beside him to win. Kobe needs a dominant man in the post to win. Once Kobe gets a genuine big man to play beside him, the Lakers will contend easily. 



Personal attacks are not allowed.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

chn353 said:


> and im guessing you think duncan is the best?
> 
> kobe is about 50 times faster than duncan, duncan is the best post player in the league so far but come on.. kobe not only has post moves he can crossover, drive, posterize, steal, rebound, shoot the 3, fadeaway.. want me to keep going?
> 
> ...



that just explains how Kobe is flashier than Duncan.

Duncan is still much more valuable in terms of impact.

Kobe is no doubt the most talented scorer and one of the most skilled in the world.

But Sometimes, those things come second rate to Impact... I mean If a player cannot jump or run really fast or even be quick.. but grabs a lot of rebounds, prevents easy basket, scores automatically down low, makes his team mates better by attracting double teams and defense focus... I mean, who needs fancy dribbling... 

Flashiness is okay, its entertaining... but does not equal = Good basketballer. Good dribbler, Skilled etc.. those things yes... but Basketball PLAYER... being able to do fancy cross overs are not pre-requisites.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> It ain't a waste of time when we can bring back and forth ARGUMENTS.
> 
> And yeah, i too get riled up with blind haters/jockriders.
> 
> But you take the good with the bad. Noone is expecting to CONVINCE teh irrational poster. Only to provide good debate.


so you get riled up with yourself? :clown:


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Yeah hundreds of other players do do it. But they are obviously a lot more careful about it. It's about not putting yourself in the wrong situation. I mean, if Kobe's not careful about that, then what else is he not careful about? Are we looking at in addition to the next Michael Jordan, the next Magic Johnson, away from the court?



I think somehow that you and the other Kobe haters would enjoy seeing Kobe attaining HIV like Magic did. That would probably make ya'll happy.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

And after reading all the way through this thread. I conclude that ...........


Kobe Bryant is still number one! the greatest basketball player in the world.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

beamer05 said:


> I think somehow that you and the other Kobe haters would enjoy seeing Kobe attaining HIV like Magic did. That would probably make ya'll happy.



Yes. That's it. I wish Kobe to die. That wasn't my point at all.
And all of this is tertiary to the point I've been trying to make which is that Kobe, Lebron, and Wade are all fantastic, and on any given day, either one can be the best player in the game.

Sorry if that's such a radical position.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

I'm shocked.

Michael Jordan has opinions?? Real, divisive opinions???


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

oh ok...so when a random laker fan says "lets see shaq win one without a supertar guard" then its all ok and he is right, but when i say let's see kobe win another one, im dumb? it is an ARGUABLE POINT Personal attacks are not allowed.. it's not as if some laker fan said "kobe is black" and i said "kobe is white". the claim is that he is the best player, which i do not agree with for various, stated reasons. it's like me saying tony parker is hands down the best pg in the league, then calling you stupid and a hater for diagreeing with me. you call me dumb, but i bet you repped your fellow laker fan who said all shaq will do is eat donuts in the season. you need to stop paying attention to how "dumb" the "haters" sound and look at the idiocracy coming your fellow laker fans' and your own computer. Absolutely do not generalize and insult an entire fanbase..


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

Unnecessary.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Yes. That's it. I wish Kobe to die. That wasn't my point at all.
> And all of this is tertiary to the point I've been trying to make which is that Kobe, Lebron, and Wade are all fantastic, and on any given day, either one can be the best player in the game.
> 
> Sorry if that's such a radical position.


they will never get it. its all a kobe-way street for them


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

4BiddenKnight said:


> Do us a favor and write using proper puncuation, capitalization and paragraphing.


because everyone else does it...right?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

4BiddenKnight said:


> Do us a favor and write using proper puncuation, capitalization and paragraphing.



Shouldn't there be a comma after "capitalization"?

For what it's worth, I had trouble spelling capitalization.


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## upsanddowns (Dec 29, 2005)

Lol...this Personal attacks are not allowed. just proved he is the biggest hater of all time. Lakers fans are blinded by hate? Lol, Personal attacks are not allowed.? Just face it Personal attacks are not allowed., your hate for Kobe Bryant is way too personal. You take the hate to another level by stating players like Allen Iverson or Raja Bell are flat out better and "OWN" Kobe. 

It's DUMB to state a comment like "let's see Kobe win another one" because he's at a distinct disadvantage than other players. In Kobe's current state, it's damn impossible. 

T-mac has Yao. Ginobli has Duncan. Wade has Shaq. Who the **** does Kobe have? A bunch of scrubs. 

When I stated that Shaq comment I only meant to shut up the Personal attacks are not allowed.. 


Personal attacks are not allowed.

~ShuHanGuanYu


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Rawse said:


> I'm shocked.
> 
> Michael Jordan has opinions?? Real, divisive opinions???


Both Jordan and Pippen have always been so trendy in terms of their opinion (in the public atleast). Or Groupthink as some call it. I wonder if he'll come out and annoint Steve Nash as the best passer in the NBA today! That would be off the wall, wouldn't it.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Shouldn't there be a comma after "capitalization"?


I've always been taught that the comma before the and is optional. Some english teachers teach it and some don't.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

beamer05 said:


> I think somehow that you and the other Kobe haters would enjoy seeing Kobe attaining HIV like Magic did. That would probably make ya'll happy.


I don't see how someone could "attain" HIV...


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I've always been taught that the comma before the and is optional. Some english teachers teach it and some don't.


This forum has given me some what of an idea of what those English courses are for too.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I've always been taught that the comma before the and is optional. Some english teachers teach it and some don't.


i think about 15 years ago, the comma before and was optional. after that, i think the official grammar police decided you needed the comma.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> I know how he can control the rape case, stop trying to have sex with random hotel workers, that might help.


Is he not human? Is he not a man? Or are you someone who never has sex, and can't relate to that urge?



> Hey look, you missed the point of what I said. Fancy that.


Hey look, you have yet to make one. *Not necessary- HB*



> The bronze medal was not a failure.


Oh it most certainly is. The best player in the best league, with a team of fellow superstars can't even led said team to a gold medal. Jordan did it in college, with fellow college players. T-Mac, A.I., Kidd, won gold in 2003. LeBronze is perpetual with his copper toned medal. It's ok though, it fits him.



> They played well.


Actually there was many glaring holes on the team.



> Maybe you are one of those guys who don't believe that the international game is any good.


Of course the International game is good... But is it good enough to beat a team chalked full of the best players, from the best league? And in your opinion, the best player? The best player in the game can't lead his team to victory over Greece, or Italy? Pathetic...



> But if you compare how this team did to the last two teams, it was a marked improvement.


Obviously not... same results. LeBronze is just that dude...



> It's overly simplistic to just equate Bronze Medal to Bronze Medal.


But essentially, that is what it is. K.I.S.S. ... that applys to you, if you know what it means. Keep It Simple Stupid. You're reaching if you think it meant more. They faced the same problems they did in 2004. Got burned by no name kats. Led by the much praised, 2003 cast. Too bad the only player who showed significant signs of improvement... was Carmelo Anthony.



> But then again, coming from you, simplistic analysis is kind of a given.


Coming from you, reaching for a glimmer of hope in a failure, just so you can try to keep LeBronze's rep intact is expectable.



> This is of course another reason why Kobe isn't the best player in the league right now.


Think about that logic for a sec there genius. If he is considered the best player in the league, without being fully healthy? If fully healthy, it would be a run away. But I'm sure your "LeBronze Logic" wouldn't let you understand something, so simple.



> He has bad knees, and apparently can't play.


A knee. A knee... and yes, right now he can't play. First accurate statement you have said. But eventually that won't be the case, and he will be on the floor.



> He's been having Knee trouble more and more as he has gotten older. I'd be concerned if I was you.


Of course, knee troubles happen to everyone as they get older. Once again, a sign you don't know much about playing basketball and sports. This stuff happens to athletes. They eventually break down. Kobe on a knee he couldn't even ben 25%, was the leading scorer, and considered by many to be the best player in the league. Eat that.



> I'm just saying, are we ever going to move from "If Kobe were there" to "This is what Kobe did" with regards to Team USA?


Sure we will, this up coming summer...



> If he gets injured


Can't do anything about that...



> or rapes someone again


You mean, allegedly? Cause he certainly wasn't convicted as so. Is this what you're having to resort to? haha



> And we can play what ifs all day, but we still have no idea how Kobe would have fit into the team dynamic. All you have is speculation.


Of course, and all we have for LeBron is cold hard facts.

This is what he lead us to... the "savior" ... WITNESS to BRONZE










Everyone is dissapointed in bronze, except for Mr. Bronze himself. He's proud, wearing his smile cause the medal matches his name.



> It's fun to say should, but single elimination tournaments don't always work out the way they should, especially once the talent level is at a certain level of parity. Just ask George Mason about should.


But they're not equal talent field. We had a team full of NBA All-Stars, from the best league in the world... with the greatest player in the World leading us... Something doesn't smell right if you get 3rd place.



> Prove that Lebron didn't play well. There's no statistical evidence to back that assertion up.


Not everything is displayed in stats. You have to take it in context. And watching the games, he didn't control the game, or inflict his will on other players. Something that the greats do.



> And in several key games he stepped up and made the play that got Team USA the win.


If by LeBron you mean Carmelo, then yes ... he stepped up and made plays that got Team USA wins.



> He hit the game winner against Brazil.


Are you talking about the practice game? The one where Melo got hurt?



> He shut down Dirk against Germany.


Nope...

Now I know you're lying, and that you didn't watch the games. Dirk was having an off night, and it was predominately Battier who was guarding Dirk. Battier, who was the team's best defender along with Kirk Hinrich, and Carmelo Anthony.



> And he was the best player on the floor against Argentina in the game that got them the bronze medal.


Of course... it was the BRONZE medal game... that's LeBronze's deal. His time to shine.



> 20/9/7 in 30 minutes against one of the top 3 teams in the world, on 7/12 shooting?


You didn't watch the game. Both LeBron and Wade got their stats after the game had already been decided. More proof that you didn't actually watch, merely followed box scores.



> Yeah, he really stunk it up out there.


Who said he "stunk it up"? He just wasn't LeBron of the NBA. He didn't dominate at all. He was a role player. And when he played well, he was a good role player.



> Watch the end of the Greece game again.


You mean the play in the last minute where LeBronze dunks it, while no defense is being played? Yeah, that was LeBronze alright.



> Hey, Alice, come out of your rabbit hole. Lebron had the second highest shooting percenrtage on Team USA.


Yet still didn't take over in scoring when they needed it.



> While you were idolizing Melo's scoring, a deeper basketball fan might have noted who the best passer/playmaker on the team was.


A deeper basketball fan? You've never even played. What would you know? Paul was the one doing the passing and creating. Melo was hands down the best scorer. When Team USA needed that, he was the only one to go to.



> There was only one player on Team USA who started every single game in the tournament.


If Melo didn't get hurt, he would've too.



> His name was Lebron James. So obviously the people who were closest to the game, didn't share your opinion that Lebron was the most disapointing.


People who analyzed the game said he was dissapointing.



> And why is this even the bulkhead of an arguement? We've got nothing to compare this with in Kobe Bryant. He's never represented his country even once.


You say that as if it was his choice. He had no choice, he couldn't play. We'll see where he takes them this summer. As the undisputed leader.



> And when he does play, he's going to be playing with Lebron James.


Yes, and he'll bring the things LeBronze lacks.



> So all we'll be able to tell is whether or not Kobe is a better player than whoever Team USA kicks off to make room for Kobe.


Nope, we'll be able to tell it was Kobe who mad the difference on the team. It was Kobe who led them to the promise land. It was Kobe who got them GOLD, and not the copper/bronze medallion. Kobe's that team's leader. That is who Colangelo and Coach K wanted. Build around Kobe... he's where its at. He can be successful in any type of basketball. And he's smart enough to use his talents and knowledge on both ends. He should teach LeBronze, Wade all summer long how to play proper defense, with proper angles and such. Put Kobe and Hinrich in the backcourt, and you got a very good backcourt. One with solid fundamentals... who are smart bball players, aren't one side players, and can get things done on both ends. Kobe gives us something we can rely on, CONSISTENTLY.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

Hmmm..MJ, the GOAT says Kobe is the best. LBJ who is the heir to the throne has gone on record numerous times saying Kobe is the best. Why are we arguing here? LBJ has already admitted Kobe is the best, yet we still have people claiming he's better than Kobe. Why?

Not only that, this thread has went from talking about basketball to his off court issues. Whether you like it or not, he's the talk and face of the league right now. LOL, this site would probably save so much money on bandwidth if it weren't for Kobe.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Pimped Out said:


> i think about 15 years ago, the comma before and was optional. after that, i think the official grammar police decided you needed the comma.


College journalism classes teach this format:

X, Y and Z

instead of:

X, Y, and Z

I remember professors threatening 50-point penalties on any paper with a comma mistake. :dead:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

HallOfFamer said:


> Hmmm..MJ, the GOAT says Kobe is the best. LBJ who is the heir to the throne has gone on record numerous times saying Kobe is the best. Why are we arguing here? LBJ has already admitted Kobe is the best, yet we still have people claiming he's better than Kobe. Why?
> 
> Not only that, this thread has went from talking about basketball to his off court issues. Whether you like it or not, he's the talk and face of the league right now. LOL, this site would probably save so much money on bandwidth if it weren't for Kobe.


Bron is the talk and face of the league. Thats very obvious. Kobe is better than him though, and Samurai Swoosh Tmac and AI never won the gold in 2003


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

HB said:


> Bron is the talk and face of the league. Thats very obvious. Kobe is better than him though, and Samurai Swoosh Tmac and AI never won the gold in 2003



I think Bron will be the face of the league, but not yet. 

During the 04-05 season, the Lakers weren't even a playoff team, yet how were they rewarded? They had the most nationally televised games during the 05-06 season. Primetime games during Thanksgiving, Xmas, and the best time slot for the playoff games. Even when Kobe was OUT of the playoffs, there was still non stop chatter for him over here, RealGM, and every other basketball forum. Whether he's talked about in a negative or positive way, he is still talked about. Nothing gets the internet poppin more than Kobe. Every sports media outlet is always dissing or praising Kobe. How about this summer? He wasn't playing in the Worlds, but yet he was still talked about alot. He's in the huge LA market and that probably has to do with it, but you can't tell me that Kobe isn't the most talked about. The premier date on the NBA calendar in the regular season is Xmas. Kobe and Shaq will both be playing in their 7th or 8th? straight Xmas day game. Whether it's about 81 points, MVP, no more Shaq, cancer, rapist, his number change, the Suns series, etc... he is the talk of the basketball world.

Also, I think TMac and AI won gold in '03 in the Tournament of the Americas.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Rawse said:


> College journalism classes teach this format:
> 
> X, Y and Z
> 
> ...


My english professors taught X, Y, and Z. But the rules for print journalism have always been a little diffrent simply because of printing costs. It's cheaper to leave out that comma.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> ......


Why in a discussion about the best player in the league people feel a need to talk about Kobe's personal life still baffles me. They act as if he cheated on them or something. So he had sex with some white girl and she accused him of rape.....she later dropped it and the only people who really know what happened where Kobe and the girl. The only thing that was proven was Kobe cheated on his wife, which he admitted, so why should people care? If he cheated on his wife, its between him and his wife. The fact of the matter is this is a situation that happened between a husband and his wife, and since then his wife and him have decided to move on from it. Why people feel a need to hold on to this dead issue is beyond me.

If you don't feel he's the best player in the legue fine, but try to back up that belief with basketball discussion, not something off a talk show.

I think it's sad that people actually take the time to personally hate athletes. I mean in the past it was a "healthy hate" in support of your favorite team because the player played for a rival team, but the respect was still there. However, today most fans actually have taken the hate to personal levels. In a way, I find this to be comical and sad. Take TO for instance, people actually believe he would intentially overdose on medication just so he could be the cover story on ESPN. People believing this just showed my how low people think about him as a person (even though they only know the athlete). I would say much of this has to do with how media coverage has changed over the years.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

ralaw said:


> Why in a discussion about the best player in the league people feel a need to talk about Kobe's personal life still baffles me. They act as if he cheated on them or something. So he had sex with some white girl and she accused him of rape.....she later dropped it and the only people who really know what happened where Kobe and the girl. The only thing that was proven was Kobe cheated on his wife, which he admitted, so why should people care? If he cheated on his wife, its between him and his wife. The fact of the matter is this is a situation that happened between a husband and his wife, and since then his wife and him have decided to move on from it. Why people feel a need to hold on to this dead issue is beyond me.
> 
> If you don't feel he's the best player in the legue fine, but try to back up that belief with basketball discussion, not something off a talk show.
> 
> I think it's sad that people actually take the time to personally hate athletes. I mean in the past it was a "healthy hate" in support of your favorite team because the player played for a rival team, but the respect was still there. However, today most fans actually have taken the hate to personal levels. In a way, I find this to be comical and sad. Take TO for instance, people actually believe he would intentially overdose on medication just so he could be the cover story on ESPN. People believing this just showed my how low people think about him as a person (even though they only know the athlete). I would say much of this has to do with how media coverage has changed over the years.


It was in the context of why Kobe has yet to represent USA basketball, and the whole discussion of what Kobe would do in international competition. My contention being that it is entirely speculative what he would do and wouldn't do, and it's entirely possible given his past history with injuries and off the court issues that he will never actually suit up for Team USA. He's pretty much got one chance left to do it in his prime.

That became more of a talking point than the probably more glaring issue of Kobe's knees, which have become a chronic concern at this stage of his career. You have to wonder what type of player we're going to see 2 or 3 years down the road? He already has become very much a jump shooter. Will he make that shift completely?


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

LOL, futuristxen, you are truly a Kobe hater. You are so much of a hater you contadict yourself and don't even realize it. First you say:



futuristxen said:


> If Kobe hadn't had sex with her in the first place, there would be nothing to cry wolf about. He put himself in a compromised situation by cheating on his wife with someone he didn't know. If you play with fire, you might get burned. I don't buy the whole "kobe didn't do anything" line, because he did do something. He was in control of the situation, he has to have some accountability on that front.


So your saying he put himself in a comprimising position by cheating and basically act as if it was the most immoral move a man could do. You say he shouldn't have cheated with someone he didn't know, as if cheating with someone he knew is more morally just. You than act as if Kobe hasn't taken accountability for his actions when he sat on ESPN news and said he cheated, so what more can he do? Do you want him to commit to rapping the white girl just because she said he did? You logic is flawed.



futuristxen said:


> Yeah hundreds of other players do do it. But they are obviously a lot more careful about it. It's about not putting yourself in the wrong situation. I mean, if Kobe's not careful about that, then what else is he not careful about? Are we looking at in addition to the next Michael Jordan, the next Magic Johnson, away from the court?


So, after someone tells you a lot athletes have cheated you twist the argument into well he needs to be "a lot more careful about it" like the rest of the players. Does being "more careful" about it somehow condone the act? You than try to take into other areas of his life? Get a grip futuristxen.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Yeaaaah. That's not a contradiction. I mean it is, if you are imposing the viewpoint you are imposing. But I'm not discussing morality, I'm discussing practicality, being a professional, and handling your business. The second post elucidates that fact.

Adultery really doesn't bother me. But there's no excuse for him to be sloppy.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Yeaaaah. That's not a contradiction. I mean it is, if you are imposing the viewpoint you are imposing. But I'm not discussing morality, I'm discussing practicality, being a professional, and handling your business. The second post elucidates that fact.
> 
> Adultery really doesn't bother me. But there's no excuse for him to be sloppy.


Yeah, maybe next time before having sex, he should make the girl sign a "waiver of rights" document that prohibits the girl from accusing him of rape. Is that what you mean by "being a professional, and handling your business"?


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> This is another hyperbolic statement that means absolutely nothing...
> 
> People were craving after Jordan dropped 60something on the Celtics in a playoff game WHERE the Bulls got swept and Jordan, at that particular game, was helped by the refs to get it into overtime... Yeah, i know... People don't remember that. But more astonishing is a player averaging 35 ppg in a season, scoring 81 pts in a game (something Jordan never dreamed of doing) and still keep singing the "he ain't dominating" tune...
> 
> Screw it, man, give Kobe a Scottie Pippen and a Horace Grant/Dennis Rodman and THEN, but just THEN, compare...


I haven't been around for a bit to defend myself, but give me a break. Yes I know Jordan and the Bulls got swept in that series. Whether you think the refs favored him unfairly is up to you - it's pretty clear what your opinion is. But that's beside the point.

Even at that point early in his career, both Magic and Bird knew that Jordan was better than they were. And that he'd be better than they ever had been in their careers. 

And I'm by no means a Jordan fan. His personal issues and personality prevent me from liking him too much, but I recognize how good he was. There wasn't even doubt in anyone's mind he was the best when he was in his prime. 

Right now, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, and Duncan are all on the same level.

Yeah, Kobe scored 35 ppg. Jordan scored 37 ppg. Both impressive, but neither is mind blowing. They took a lot of shots those years. As a result, they scored a lot. I'm not saying anyone could do it, but there are a few players now that probably could. Lebron scored 32 ppg last year. Again, impressive, but not mind blowing. If he took as many shots as Kobe, he'd score something around 37 ppg (keeping percentages even). If you want to say he'd have a lower percentage taking more shots, fine. But he'd still score around 35 ppg. It's not unheard of. It's just that great players rarely get in a position where taking that many shots will help their team win.

Kobe scored 81 in a game. Amazing. Incredible scoring display. The best I've seen in my lifetime. I won't even take anything away from him because it was the Raptors. It'd be hard to do that against anyone. But it was one game. It doesn't make him the best ever, or even the best in the league. He got hot and was unstoppable. AND he took 46 shots. Again, it was an incredible performance, but such performances are rare not because Kobe's the only one who could ever do such a thing, but because taking that many shots is rarely good for the team. In this case, Kobe's 81 was obviously the exception. I don't want to take anything away from it, though. Like I said, the most amazing scoring display I'll probably ever see. 


I didn't say Kobe didn't dominate. He dominates regularly. But so do Wade, Lebron, and Duncan. Kobe hasn't separated himself from that group with a huge scoring night or two. Kobe would never DREAM of going for 22/20/11/8 in a finals game, but does that mean Duncan is better than Kobe? Nope. It was just a brilliant individual performance. 

I personally don't see why 35/5/5 is that much more impressive that 32/7/7 anyway. It just looks like each player devoted a little more time to scoring and passing/rebounding, respectively.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

HallOfFamer said:


> Hmmm..MJ, the GOAT says Kobe is the best. LBJ who is the heir to the throne has gone on record numerous times saying Kobe is the best. Why are we arguing here? LBJ has already admitted Kobe is the best, yet we still have people claiming he's better than Kobe. Why?
> 
> Not only that, this thread has went from talking about basketball to his off court issues. Whether you like it or not, he's the talk and face of the league right now. LOL, this site would probably save so much money on bandwidth if it weren't for Kobe.


Wait, wait. You want Lebron to say what? "I'm the best"? 

I hate it when people say "Lebron himself said Kobe is the best." It's called humility. Lebron isn't going to say he's the best, whether he thinks it or not. I don't know who he thinks is the best, and neither do you. He says Kobe because Kobe's one of the best in the league, and someone Lebron's looked up to growing up. Of course he's not going to say himself. 

You know what? If you asked Kobe who the best in the league is, he probably wouldn't say Kobe. If you pressed him really hard, he'd probably say Duncan, Wade, Lebron, or Nash even. Normal people just don't usually say arrogant things like, "I'm the best in the league."


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

ralaw said:


> Yeah, maybe next time before having sex, he should make the girl sign a "waiver of rights" document that prohibits the girl from accusing him of rape. Is that what you mean by "being a professional, and handling your business"?


There's a reason why guys like Shaq and Iverson commit adultery all the time, and don't end up in situations like this. Kobe was incredibly naive given his status, and not very careful...given his status.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> There's a reason why guys like Shaq and Iverson commit adultery all the time, and don't end up in situations like this. Kobe was incredibly naive given his status, and not very careful...given his status.


So now Kobe's wrong because he was caught? Okay I gocha. Maybe next time instead of requesting the waiver, he also should just "do the do" with his main groupie who certainly wouldn't tell. Kobe's such a loser for being caught? I mean, who at that level of celebrity gets caught?


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

ralaw said:


> So now Kobe's wrong because he was caught? Okay I gocha. Maybe next time instead of requesting the waiver, he also should just "do the do" with his main groupie who certainly wouldn't tell. Kobe's such a loser for being caught? I mean, who at that level of celebrity gets caught?


I don't know that he's saying Kobe's wrong because he was caught. Without putting words in his mouth (and I hope I'm not going out on a limb here), I imagine he thinks everyone who does that is wrong, whether they get caught or not. 

I think the original point was that it's Kobe's fault he was occupied in the summer of 2004 and couldn't play for USA. Which I agree with, although I personally don't believe he actually raped the girl. But what do I know...


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Brandname said:


> I think the original point was that it's Kobe's fault he was occupied in the summer of 2004 and couldn't play for USA. Which I agree with, although I personally don't believe he actually raped the girl. But what do I know...


I really don't see anything to agree with or not agree with, because it's simple truth. Kobe was preoccupied the summer of 2004 and that fact should be rather obvious. However, my point is that whatever he did or didn't do is something that happened between Kobe, his wife and the girl, so using it to validate a belief is pointless. If Kobe and his wife have moved on from the issue, people should as well.

His orgininal point was that Kobe was preoccupied, but he than moved on to how it was unprofessional and irresponsible for Kobe to be caught (as if not being caught is okay). He backed this with his comments about Shaq and AI never being caught, as if that makes them professional and responsible.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

ralaw said:


> I really don't see anything to agree with or not agree with, because it's simple truth. Kobe was preoccupied the summer of 2004 and that fact should be rather obvious. However, my point is that whatever he did or didn't do is something that happened between Kobe, his wife and the girl, so using it to validate a belief is pointless. If Kobe and his wife have moved on from the issue, people should as well.
> 
> His orgininal point was that Kobe was preoccupied, but he than moved on to how it was unprofessional and irresponsible for Kobe to be caught (as if not being caught is okay). He backed this with his comments about Shaq and AI never being caught, as if that makes them professional and responsible.


No argument here. I avoid talking about it as much as possible because it was a terrible decision and mistake, but it doesn't take away from what he does on the court. I'd much rather talk basketball anyway.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

Brandname said:


> I haven't been around for a bit to defend myself, but give me a break. Yes I know Jordan and the Bulls got swept in that series. Whether you think the refs favored him unfairly is up to you - it's pretty clear what your opinion is. But that's beside the point.
> 
> Even at that point early in his career, both Magic and Bird knew that Jordan was better than they were. And that he'd be better than they ever had been in their careers.
> 
> ...


 :clap:


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

why are ppl so defensive of kobe's actions against the girl? HE WAS WRONG. we can all speculate on the theory that many other NBA players do it, but that's like speculating that there are aliens in space...you may have evidence, but there is no proof. 

kobe was caught doing it. and we dont know the situation good enough, but some say she is a golddigger...how do you know??? do you know her motives? of course. my opinion on it is that it was consentual, then while it was occuring, she wanted to stop, but he didn't. that's my personal opinon. you have yours. 

but that is besides the point. futrixten was saying (i think) that some of kobe's reasons for not playing in the tourney is his fault (like cheating), and we should not be making excuses for him, nor acting like he is a victim of fate.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Duncan- stop wasting your time. Anyone who followed that case closely knows that it was a complete joke. This website or forum is for discussing basketball, stay on topic, and stop making yourself look ridiculous.


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## nguyen_milan (Jun 28, 2005)

haha, BBB needs a looong Kobe thread at least once a week and thanx to MJ, we get one here. Otherwise we will be bored lol


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

bballlife said:


> Duncan- stop wasting your time. Anyone who followed that case closely knows that it was a complete joke. This website or forum is for discussing basketball, stay on topic, and stop making yourself look ridiculous.


Nah, every Lakers fan knows Kobe didn't do it. I don't hate nor love Kobe, but I do enjoy watching him play a hell of a lot. His case has a lot of questions on both ends, so I just don't know. I imagine most people are not convinced either way, unless they have preconceived notions about Kobe.


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## Unique (Apr 13, 2005)

Go Kobe! 

Kobe n MJ = BFF 

:biggrin:


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## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> There's a reason why guys like Shaq and Iverson commit adultery all the time, and don't end up in situations like this. Kobe was incredibly naive given his status, and not very careful...given his status.



You can't just throw Shaq and AI's name out there without including the possibility that your boy Lebron cheats, or Duncan cheats. They probably cheat too if you're going to throw out other peoples names.


----------



## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

Rawse said:


> I don't see how someone could "attain" HIV...



Magic said it in his speech "because of the HIV virus I have attained.." You have sex with someone who has it, and you attain HIV. Or is there a better word you could use? Because I don't feel like looking up big fancy words that many people on here do.


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> Nah, every Lakers fan knows Kobe didn't do it. I don't hate nor love Kobe, but I do enjoy watching him play a hell of a lot. His case has a lot of questions on both ends, so I just don't know. I imagine most people are not convinced either way, unless they have preconceived notions about Kobe.



I suggest you go over the case material a little more closely.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Kobe's son names Michael. MJ's son names Kobe.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Brandname said:


> I haven't been around for a bit to defend myself, but give me a break. Yes I know Jordan and the Bulls got swept in that series. Whether you think the refs favored him unfairly is up to you - it's pretty clear what your opinion is. But that's beside the point.


Please do what i did: research summaries of that game. Don't call it "my opinion" untill you do that.



> Even at that point early in his career, both Magic and Bird knew that Jordan was better than they were. And that he'd be better than they ever had been in their careers.


That's a wholetruck of bull**** and i'll leave it at that. I'm not going to adress it one more time.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

beamer05 said:


> You can't just throw Shaq and AI's name out there without including the possibility that your boy Lebron cheats, or Duncan cheats. They probably cheat too if you're going to throw out other peoples names.


I agree. Lebron probably has had a thing with Sharapova behind his girlfriend's back. There's a good reason Lebron isn't married. And I'm sure the NBA life is part of it. When he's ready to settle down, then he'll probably get married. But I have no doubt he's playing the field. Like I said, that part of it doesn't bother me. I don't know why that's so hard to understand. My beef with Kobe is that he wasn't careful. He wasn't professional about it. He was careless. He was sloppy. It was his own carelessness that got him charged with rape, and so he had to deal with the ramifications.


----------



## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

I'm just laughing right now....

Magic says Joran was the best and that's the truth because it's Magic, and Lebron fans agree with this.

Lebron says Kobe is the best and it's false because Lebron is just being humble, Lebron fans agree with this.

Which one is it then?


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> I agree. Lebron probably has had a thing with Sharapova behind his girlfriend's back. There's a good reason Lebron isn't married. And I'm sure the NBA life is part of it. When he's ready to settle down, then he'll probably get married. But I have no doubt he's playing the field. Like I said, that part of it doesn't bother me. I don't know why that's so hard to understand. My beef with Kobe is that he wasn't careful. He wasn't professional about it. He was careless. He was sloppy. It was his own carelessness that got him charged with rape, and so he had to deal with the ramifications.


Fruity, i think this is the lowest i've seen you dive...

So you are knocking Kobe because of his off-court actions? Heck, what do you have to say about Jordan's gambilng habits and the fact that he made some girl the richest mistress ever? Yeah, i know this doesn't matter a lick upon adressing players' games, but you are the one bringing it to the table. What about Magic shortening his life because he screwed every chick in sight? Or Shawn Kemp? Or Lebron?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

thug_immortal8 said:


> I'm just laughing right now....
> 
> Magic says Joran was the best and that's the truth because it's Magic, and Lebron fans agree with this.
> 
> ...


Huh?

If A says B
And
C says D
And A does not equal C, and B doesn't equal D.

Then what the **** are you saying?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Fruity, i think this is the lowest i've seen you dive...
> 
> So you are knocking Kobe because of his off-court actions? Heck, what do you have to say about Jordan's gambilng habits and the fact that he made some girl the richest mistress ever? Yeah, i know this doesn't matter a lick upon adressing players' games, but you are the one bringing it to the table. What about Magic shortening his life because he screwed every chick in sight? Or Shawn Kemp? Or Lebron?


Paulo you are a very silly man.

Jordan's gambling habits probably cost the Bulls an extra title maybe two, since that was probably a main reason why he retired the first time--hell it may have even cost him his dad, but we don't know. So yeah, that's a definite knock on him, and I would not be the first to knock him for it.
It's like knocking Mickey Mantle for being a drunkard.

Magic not only shortened his life, but shortened his career. But you can kind of give him a pass, because HIV wasn't really publisized as much back then as anything more than a homosexual disease. You can thank Reagan for that one.

Kemp defintiely get's blasted for his off the court issues. Shawn Kemp ruined his career and his legacy because of all the babies he created. If he had lived a more in control life off the court, he wouldn't have had to demand the contract that got him kicked out of seattle, and in the lockout year ruined his NBA career.

So far Lebron hasn't done anything off the court yet that will or is ruining his career. He will probably have a career like Shaq, where he has a lot of fun off the court, but he's smart enough about it, to not let it interfere with business. Lebron is a business man. Wade is in similiar company right now.

So yeah, keep giving examples that prove my assertion. When your off the court problems affect your on the court performance, then it's a topic for discussion. With Kobe it definitely affected the on the court. Kobe's off the court biz, cost the Lakers at least one more championship, it hampered his ability to represent his country which may or may not depending on who you talk to, have cost the United States a gold medal.

I mean, the thing that you guys are trying to act like, is that Kobe was just sitting like an angel in his hotel room, when this girl, this *****, came into his room and forced him to have sex with her. You guys are making it out that she raped him. Kobe chose to have sex with this woman. He chose when. He chose where. He chose not to find out more about her before doing it, which given the story that Kobe's defense team gave of her history, even leading up to that night, makes Kobe kind of an idiot--I mean, she had another dude's seamen in her underwear, and was crazy? I mean if you believe what the defense said about this woman, then what was Kobe doing having random sex with her? Have your bodyguards check things out first if nothing else. The point is, what happened was of Kobe's own creation. And the ramifications of those decisions, definitely make it a basketball thing.

You guys just want to talk right and wrong. I'm talking about responsibility and accountability.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Paulo you are a very silly man.
> 
> Jordan's gambling habits probably cost the Bulls an extra title maybe two, since that was probably a main reason why he retired the first time--hell it may have even cost him his dad, but we don't know. So yeah, that's a definite knock on him, and I would not be the first to knock him for it.
> It's like knocking Mickey Mantle for being a drunkard.
> ...


You are cracking me up, Fruity... Really...

I wouldn't expect you to drop even a line about Kobe's off-court drama, but here you are squirming like a little girl. Yeah, i was wrong about you, Fruity. I thought you were a stone cold SOB. But you are not. You use duncan 2k5 tactics. You are bashing Kobe because he was involved in a rape case. And you are make assumptions at your free will regarding it without any sense of reallity. Or common sense. This is when i see you have no argument, Fruity... When you try to Kobe-is-a-rapist-way-to-bash-him.

Shame on you man. 

Naming Kobe Bryant a rapist is childish. I didn't expect you did it. But you have. I'll draw my own conclusions...


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> Please do what i did: research summaries of that game. Don't call it "my opinion" untill you do that.
> 
> That's a wholetruck of bull**** and i'll leave it at that. I'm not going to adress it one more time.


eh, whatever. I know basketball, and I'm familiar with recent basketball history. Don't act condescending to me. I've watched the game. I've formed my own opinions. 

Regarding Magic's quote about Jordan being better than him, it holds a lot of weight because of Magic's huge respect factor for Bird. Given their history and the fact that they're two of the best players to ever step foot on the floor, it would take a lot for Magic to say someone is hands down better than Bird (Since Magic's a really humble guy, he's obviously not going to say he's the best ever). Prior to Jordan, Magic had said Bird was the best he's ever played against. When Jordan got a couple years into the league, Magic changed his opinion to Jordan being the best, and he hasn't changed his opinion since.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Paulo, I'm not debating whether Kobe's a rapist or not. I'm saying he put himself in a situation where he was accused of it, which is entirely fact. You can keep trying to pigeonhole the point to where it makes you comfortable, but it doesn't bring you any closer to the adults table. Keep trying to rewrite history big brother. Maybe by next year daddy will bring you a fancy unicorn for your fantasy circus.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

thug_immortal8 said:


> I'm just laughing right now....
> 
> Magic says Joran was the best and that's the truth because it's Magic, and Lebron fans agree with this.
> 
> ...


Read my response to Paulo directly above.

Futuristxen already addressed this, but I explained why the two statements are different. Magic's quote was important because he was, in essence, saying that Jordan was better than Bird. Not because he was saying Jordan was better than himself. Of course he's not going to say he's better than Jordan. That's not what I was getting at.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Brandname said:


> eh, whatever. I know basketball, and I'm familiar with recent basketball history. Don't act condescending to me. I've watched the game. I've formed my own opinions.
> 
> Regarding Magic's quote about Jordan being better than him, it holds a lot of weight because of Magic's huge respect factor for Bird. Given their history and the fact that they're two of the best players to ever step foot on the floor, it would take a lot for Magic to say someone is hands down better than Bird (Since Magic's a really humble guy, he's obviously not going to say he's the best ever). Prior to Jordan, Magic had said Bird was the best he's ever played against. When Jordan got a couple years into the league, Magic changed his opinion to Jordan being the best, and he hasn't changed his opinion since.


Now who's been condescending? 

Magic's Nemesis was Bird.
Birs's Nemesis was Magic.

Both players competed for the "best player in the world" award.

Jordan doesn't come up to this comparison. AFTER Magic and AFTER Bird, he was the best player in the world. And that's what it is.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> Now who's been condescending?
> 
> Magic's Nemesis was Bird.
> Birs's Nemesis was Magic.
> ...


I didn't feel there was any condescension in my post. If there was, I apologize. It was inadvertent. 

Anyway, yes they were nemeses. But they have just about more respect for each other than any pair of players I can think of off the top of my head (or at least they're the most outspoken about it). My point was merely that Magic has said on several occasions that Jordan is the best he's ever seen. Given the ample praise he's always given Bird, that comment holds a lot of weight.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

As long as this crap is going on I'm entitled to make a Game thread everyday on the hip hop board. Get off his nuts, damn...


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

_Dre_ said:


> As long as this crap is going on I'm entitled to make a Game thread everyday on the hip hop board. Get off his nuts, damn...


ElMarroAfamado??? Is that you???

j/k


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Paulo, I'm not debating whether Kobe's a rapist or not. I'm saying he put himself in a situation where he was accused of it, which is entirely fact. You can keep trying to pigeonhole the point to where it makes you comfortable, but it doesn't bring you any closer to the adults table. Keep trying to rewrite history big brother. Maybe by next year daddy will bring you a fancy unicorn for your fantasy circus.


Another surprise post.

Who the **** cares if Kobe got intro "trouble" with a chick or whatever? Again, who the **** cares? 
What does that has anything?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Who the **** cares if Kobe got intro "trouble" with a chick or whatever? Again, who the **** cares?
> What does that has anything?


Who cares about championships? Who cares about gold medals? Who cares about millions of dollars in endorsement deals?

Yes. Who cares, Paulo, who cares?

Kobe lost all of these because of some "trouble with a chick".


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> I agree. Lebron probably has had a thing with Sharapova behind his girlfriend's back. There's a good reason Lebron isn't married. And I'm sure the NBA life is part of it. When he's ready to settle down, then he'll probably get married. But I have no doubt he's playing the field. Like I said, that part of it doesn't bother me. I don't know why that's so hard to understand. My beef with Kobe is that he wasn't careful. He wasn't professional about it. He was careless. He was sloppy. It was his own carelessness that got him charged with rape, and so he had to deal with the ramifications.


dude....hes married...

read at the bottom


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Paulo you are a very silly man.
> 
> Jordan's gambling habits probably cost the Bulls an extra title maybe two, since that was probably a main reason why he retired the first time--hell it may have even cost him his dad, but we don't know. So yeah, that's a definite knock on him, and I would not be the first to knock him for it.
> It's like knocking Mickey Mantle for being a drunkard.


Oh please. Jordan retired the first time because he said he didnt have the motivation, didn’t see a challenge. His dad dying probably had a big, big impact on his decision. His gambling problems are completely overblown and irrelevant. He gambled, he was beyond loaded, it didn’t harm his play, who cares. 




> The point is, what happened was of Kobe's own creation. And the ramifications of those decisions, definitely make it a basketball thing.
> 
> You guys just want to talk right and wrong. I'm talking about responsibility and accountability.


True, and Kobe has accepted responsibility and owned up to his mistakes, and moved on.

Why can't everybody else do the same?


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## da bully (Oct 17, 2006)

wow, you guys really get defensive or offensive [whatever side your on] when kobes name come up, 18 pages and counting geeez.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Who cares about championships? Who cares about gold medals? Who cares about millions of dollars in endorsement deals?
> 
> Yes. Who cares, Paulo, who cares?
> 
> *Kobe lost all of these because of some "trouble with a chick".*


Kobe didn't lose any champioship because of it. Nor Gold medal (i guess you are saying international ball, wich is strange, because Lebronze has a baaaad curriculum vitae when facing international ball).

Endorsement deals? Off course. Only the shadow of problems will drive the sponsors away... Has Michael Jackson done any Pepsi ad lately? What was the reason Tom Cruise was fired from Paramount (i think it was Paramount)?

Big deal.

The fact is, wether you like it or nor, Kobe Bryant is one of the best ball players in the States. Trying to put him down bringing up that bogus rape charge (so bogus that the girl "raped" GAVE UP on the charges... go figure!) is something like:
a) AI is a fellon because of his gun-waving scene a couple of years back;
b) C-Webb is trash because he lied about taking money while in college;
c) Jordan is a low-life because he had multiple women on the side;
d) Stephen Jackson is a retard because he carried a gun to a strip joint and fired it into the air.

Who gives a ****? It's the players production that matters. And i don't know why you are trying to get this off-game and into private matters...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

da bully said:


> wow, you guys really get defensive or offensive [whatever side your on] when kobes name come up, 18 pages and counting geeez.


It's kind of easy: I am a Laker fan a i dislike Kobe Bryant. Not as much as T-Mac and KG, who i loathe vehemently (sp?), but still i don't like the dude. Yet, it's easy for me to see he is one of the best players in the NBA (IMHO, Top-3).

I get somewhat riled up when people bash player's games with something taken off National Enquirer or something...


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## xcellence (Apr 17, 2006)

In a world without simple minded haters this thread would have been full of respones like "Yeah that's a really nice compliment from MJ"...gone maybe 2 or 3 pages and ended...sadly ******ry prevailed and it turned into the same typical endless argument that has been raging for years...the supporting cast has changed (tmac, a.i. to wade and lebron) but the same ole lead actor and the same ole plot


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

if i were kobe, this thread would flatter me.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

CubanLaker said:


> dude....hes married...
> 
> read at the bottom


Can you find a better source for that?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Kobe didn't lose any champioship because of it. Nor Gold medal (i guess you are saying international ball, wich is strange, because Lebronze has a baaaad curriculum vitae when facing international ball).



People on here said Kobe is so great that if he had played on the the USA team they would have won the gold medal. Well if he wasn't in that situation, he could have played on USA basketball, and won a gold medal.

And as for the championship, his off the court issues divided the lakers team and probably cost them the series against the Pistons. At the very least it cost them a chance to come back the next year and have another go at it. It Shaq and Wade were good enough to win a title this year, then why wouldn't Shaq and Kobe? Unless you are saying Wade is better than Kobe.

Therefore, Kobe by putting himself in that situation, cost himself a gold medal and an NBA championship. And as for the money, that's cool you can just sneer at millions of dollars like that.

Anyways. I'm saddened I had to spell this out word for word for you. Gave you more credit that that.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

xcellence said:


> In a world without simple minded haters this thread would have been full of respones like "Yeah that's a really nice compliment from MJ"...gone maybe 2 or 3 pages and ended...sadly ******ry prevailed and it turned into the same typical endless argument that has been raging for years...the supporting cast has changed (tmac, a.i. to wade and lebron) but the same ole lead actor and the same ole plot


Yep, pretty much. What's interesting is how quickly Lebron's name was dragged into this topic, and how new angles (Team success in Int'l play) are being used against him by critics. 

The fact that Kobe seems to be the measuring stick in these debates does say something though.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> People on here said Kobe is so great that if he had played on the the USA team they would have won the gold medal.


"People on here" AND Dirk Freaking Nowitszki (sp?). 



> Well if he wasn't in that situation, he could have played on USA basketball, and won a gold medal.


What nsituation? Injury? God forbid!



> And as for the championship, his off the court issues divided the lakers team and probably cost them the series against the Pistons.


Have you got any basis to fork over that claim? Or are you just throwing **** around?



> At the very least it cost them a chance to come back the next year and have another go at it. It Shaq and Wade were good enough to win a title this year, then why wouldn't Shaq and Kobe? Unless you are saying Wade is better than Kobe.


Oh, dear. 
Look it up. the last 2 years Kobe and Shaq played together they dodn't win the championship.
YET
In the last 2 years Kobe and Shaq played together Kobe had more MVP votes.
Go figure.



> Therefore, Kobe by putting himself in that situation, cost himself a gold medal and an NBA championship.


Nope. 



> And as for the money, that's cool you can just sneer at millions of dollars like that.


I don't "sneer at millions" like that. I'm saying things as they are. When sports figures taint their images, voluntarily or not, sponsors will back off. The thing is this particular girl called "rape". That's the big difference between Kobe, Magic (who will die sooner because he screwed left and right), Jordan (who should be glad not one of his lady friends decided to call it rape), and many other sports figures who get their way at ease with groupies and all.

And that's the sole freaking difference. This particular girl, with this particular player, decided (right or wrong, i wasn't in the bedroom) to press charges because she said it was rape. Are you naive enough to believe that if that had happened to Magic or Jordan their image wouldn't suffer? While the media was putting it up in the front pages of papers and headlines on TV DAILY? Yeah, let's see Jordan trying to sell underwear in Spain when he is called a rapist everyday...



> Anyways. I'm saddened I had to spell this out word for word for you. Gave you more credit that that.


Condescending doesn't suit you.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Top 5 Players in the NBA!*

1.)Kobe Bryant > 2.)Dwyane Wade > 3.)Allen Iverson > 4.)LeBron James > 5.)Tim Duncan.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

23AJ said:


> *Top 5 Players in the NBA!*
> 
> 1.)Kobe Bryant > 2.)Dwyane Wade > 3.)Allen Iverson > 4.)LeBron James > 5.)Tim Duncan.


I think Iverson is a little out of place there, but other than that, I'd say the other 4 are consensus top 5 players. Not a bad list.


----------



## Bon]{eRz (Feb 23, 2005)

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6077438

There you have it, conclusive proof from an independent analyst that Lebron is the number 1 player in the NBA.

Kobe doesn't even come 2nd!

(3rd behind Wade)

/thread


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23AJ said:


> *Top 5 Players in the NBA!*
> 
> 1.)Kobe Bryant > 2.)Dwyane Wade > 3.)Allen Iverson > 4.)LeBron James > 5.)Tim Duncan.


1a Lebron
1b Kobe
3. Duncan
4. Dwade
5. Dirk


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Bon said:


> {eRz]http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6077438
> 
> There you have it, conclusive proof from an independent analyst that Lebron is the number 1 player in the NBA.
> 
> ...


Pff! who's Mike Kahn? ralaw says

1. Kobe Bryant
2. LeBron James
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Tim Duncan
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Steve Nash (what's a list without the two time MVP?)

/thread


----------



## Bon]{eRz (Feb 23, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> 1a Lebron
> 1b Kobe
> 3. Duncan
> 4. Dwade
> 5. Dirk


I don't know how you can still bother with some of the posters in this thread futuristxen. Use your time to do something more productive like banging your head against a wall.

Doesn't the fact that at this moment there are fans for different players who can argue a reasonable case for their favourite player being the best in the leauge (fans of Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Duncan and Dirk anyway) prove that there is no clear cut best player in the league?

We all agree that there is a top tier of players, lets leave it at that. This isn't like in the Jordan era where all the fans (except for paulo) and players (magic, bird) pretty much unanimously agreed that Jordan was the best player in the league at that time. There is no one player today with that kind of status, lets just accept that there is a top tier of players without having to single out a best individual.

These 15+ page threads are a waste of space because in the end the fans of players are so set in their thinking that no reasonable arguments to the contrary could possibly change their position.


----------



## Bon]{eRz (Feb 23, 2005)

ralaw said:


> Pff! who's Mike Kahn? ralaw says
> 
> 1. Kobe Bryant
> 2. LeBron James
> ...


 :biggrin: 

I should've put /sarcasm after the /thread there. The post was for some comic relief - that list is a joke with Al Harrington ranked 33rd in the league and Pau Gasol ranked 50th.

I have Kobe on my list as the best player, but accept that the number 1 position is interchangable amongst the top 4 players on ralaw's list.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Bon]{eRz said:


> http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6077438
> 
> There you have it, conclusive proof from an independent analyst that Lebron is the number 1 player in the NBA.
> 
> ...


I actually think that's a pretty good list. I think Vince Carter and Ray Allen should be switched. And I think Dwight Howard should be a little higher up. Other than that, it looks pretty good (we don't really know how T-Mac or Amare are going to do this year).


----------



## beamer05 (Feb 24, 2006)

ralaw said:


> Pff! who's Mike Kahn? ralaw says
> 
> 1. Kobe Bryant
> 2. LeBron James
> ...



I like this one.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

ralaw said:


> LOL, people ask for a link as if Jordan went out on a limb saying this or something. Almost everytime Jordan goes public he is asked this question and he always says Kobe. Outside of a few Kobe haters and James supporters, Kobe in generally considered the best individual player in the league.


Yup. Mention Kobe's name in a conversation with MJ and it becomes a lovefest. 

I also think Lebron shares the distinction of being the best player in the league with Kobe now. The recent GM survey certainly implies so.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> 1a Lebron
> 1b Kobe
> 3. Duncan
> 4. Dwade
> 5. Dirk


That's exactly my list except I would put:

1a) Kobe
1b) Lebron

and the rest the same.

The reason why I put Kobe ahead of Lebron but both #1 is that Kobe plays better defense. But I also think Lebron is a better all-around offensive player and is not that far off as a scorer than Kobe.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Gilgamesh said:


> That's exactly my list except I would put:
> 
> 1a) Kobe
> 1b) Lebron
> ...


I don't think I could have said it better.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Brandname said:


> I don't think I could have said it better.


Well, if you did cintemplate the DEFENSIVE part of the game, MAYBE you'd put Duncan over LBJ. Or even KG. And Wade. But, off course, defense sucks, right?


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> Well, if you did cintemplate the DEFENSIVE part of the game, MAYBE you'd put Duncan over LBJ. Or even KG. And Wade. But, off course, defense sucks, right?


What? Do you have me confused with someone else?


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Brandname said:


> What? Do you have me confused with someone else?


Not really.

To put Le Bronze over Duncan, Wade and Kevin Garnett you MUST overlook defense.

Weren't you agreeing in LBJ being 1b?


----------



## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Well, if you did cintemplate the DEFENSIVE part of the game, MAYBE you'd put Duncan over LBJ. Or even KG. And Wade. But, off course, defense sucks, right?


But the debate isn't over Lebron's D and the names you mentioned. It is between Lebron's D and Kobe's D. 

However, if we were to include the defensive value of Lebron as compared to the other names you mentioned (keeping in mind that this is not a top defenders but a best players list) IMO Lebron's offensive value, intangibles, and skill set offsets the defensive value of Duncan, Wade, and KG enough to justify (at least to me personally) to placing him above them in such a list.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> Not really.
> 
> To put Le Bronze over Duncan, Wade and Kevin Garnett you MUST overlook defense.
> 
> Weren't you agreeing in LBJ being 1b?


Gilgamesh is making the exact same argument I would make. 

First, Wade and Lebron are about on par defensively. Which is to say, average to above average. Duncan and Garnett are much better than Lebron defensively. But they also don't offer the offensive versatility that Lebron does. 

So really it's a measure of what extra Lebron offers offensively compared to what extra Duncan and Garnett offer defensively.

I know you don't like Lebron, and so many of you people who don't like to Lebron really enjoy breaking the game down to 1)offense 2)defense and say that Lebron doesn't play 50% of the game. So anyone who plays 51% or more is better than he is. It's just not a very good argument. 

When it comes down to it, I just feel that the sum of what Lebron brings to the table is greater than the sum of what every other player in the league brings (with the possible exception of Kobe).


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

i agree with gilgamesh. and i think that lebron's defensive incapabilities are exaggerated. ive had the pleasure of seeing all the local cav games on tv...and dude has gotten better. he has average defense. it's not like he is a liability on that end. i think ppl are stuck in the past in that regard


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Brandname said:


> Gilgamesh is making the exact same argument I would make.
> 
> First, Wade and Lebron are about on par defensively. Which is to say, average to above average. Duncan and Garnett are much better than Lebron defensively. But they also don't offer the offensive versatility that Lebron does.
> 
> ...


This is a great point :cheers:


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Am I the only one who has been hearing people saying negative things about LeBron? I've heard twice this week on two different television shows, where people have saying he dominates the ball too much, and needs to learn make his teammates better (not indicated by his assist totals) by keeping them involved. The rational behind it has to do with them believing LeBron statistically and production wise really won't improve that much more, so him depending on his teammates to be consistently good will be of high premium.

It seems LeBron's cloud is lowering a bit in light of Wade's performance during last years playoffs.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

ralaw said:


> Am I the only one who has been hearing people saying negative things about LeBron? I've heard twice this week on two different television shows, where people have saying he dominates the ball too much, and needs to learn make his teammates better (not indicated by his assist totals) by keeping them involved. The rational behind it has to do with them believing LeBron statistically and production wise really won't improve that much more, so him depending on his teammates to be consistently good will be of high premium.
> 
> It seems LeBron's cloud is lowering a bit in light of Wade's performance during last years playoffs.


I've been hearing those things for a long time now. People have always said negative things about Lebron. Last year, it was that he wasn't clutch. Then people realized he had a much higher fg% in the last few minutes of close games than just about anyone else in the league. Then they said he couldn't hit buzzer beating shots. Until his gamewinners against Washington, Charlotte, New Orleans, etc. 

I think everyone as high profile as him is going to get people saying bad things, justified or not. If you want to read more about how Lebron is not a very good player, I could suggest some light reading such as Rosen, BJ Armstrong, Wilbon, or Ric Bucher.

Of course, Wilbon is the only mildly respectable ones out of those, but for some reason he acts like a Wade homer really bad. And of course that means that Lebron can't be great because Wade AND Lebron can't both be great. 

There are a lot of fair criticisms of Lebron out there. I just find that most articles criticizing him are from people who you know are blatant haters. In my mind, it would be very good to read an article from someone who actually doesn't hate him that discusses his weaknesses.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Paulo, I'm not debating whether Kobe's a rapist or not. I'm saying he put himself in a situation where he was accused of it, which is entirely fact. You can keep trying to pigeonhole the point to where it makes you comfortable, but it doesn't bring you any closer to the adults table. Keep trying to rewrite history big brother. Maybe by next year daddy will bring you a fancy unicorn for your fantasy circus.


 Hypothetical. Say lebron was in the same EXACT situation. Would you be saying ANY of this, or would you be on the side paulo is?

Don't even TRY to say 
1. You would say the same thing.
2. Lebron wouldn't do anything like that - because this is purely hypothetical.


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## Unique (Apr 13, 2005)

ralaw said:


> Am I the only one who has been hearing people saying negative things about LeBron? I've heard twice this week on two different television shows, where people have saying he dominates the ball too much, and needs to learn make his teammates better (not indicated by his assist totals) by keeping them involved. The rational behind it has to do with them believing LeBron statistically and production wise really won't improve that much more, so him depending on his teammates to be consistently good will be of high premium.
> 
> * It seems LeBron's cloud is lowering a bit in light of Wade's performance during last years playoffs.*


Yea, It also has to do with Melo showing what he's got this summer in the World games.

Sorry ******** :biggrin:

EDIT: Someone upstairs censorsed a word that shouldnt be censord!


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Brandname said:


> Gilgamesh is making the exact same argument I would make.
> 
> First, Wade and Lebron are about on par defensively. Which is to say, average to above average. Duncan and Garnett are much better than Lebron defensively. But they also don't offer the offensive versatility that Lebron does.
> 
> ...


Actually Wade is a better defender then LeBron. Also Wade has already made all NBA defensive team. Where LeBron hasn't been close, and I really don't think he will ever be that good on defense against perimeter players because he's to slow, and has a habbit of falling off of his defenders to compenstate for their speed. I also don't see LeBron being a very good post defender either because he rarely plays in the post to develop those great defensive big man skills. E.G. Dennis Rodman, Charles Oakley, and Ben Wallace types.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Brandname said:


> Gilgamesh is making the exact same argument I would make.
> 
> First, Wade and Lebron are about on par defensively. Which is to say, average to above average. Duncan and Garnett are much better than Lebron defensively. But they also don't offer the offensive versatility that Lebron does.
> 
> ...


Defense wins championships, you may be underrating defense by a big margin. Ron Artest with out the psychological problems is on par with LeBron James. The Reason Kobe Bryant is the best in the game is because he has the ability to raise his game on the defensive end, along with the offensive. Something LeBron is light years away from being able to do. (defensively)


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

23AJ said:


> Defense wins championships, you may be underrating defense by a big margin. *Ron Artest with out the psychological problems is on par with LeBron James. *The Reason Kobe Bryant is the best in the game is because he has the ability to raise his game on the defensive end, along with the offensive. Something LeBron is light years away from being able to do. (defensively)


Wow just wow. Talk about hyping one player to make another look bad. Okay we get you are a Kobe fan, but thats just wrong. One man's defense is not going win a championship. Where did Ron Artest's defense lead a talented Sacramento team. I am not a big Bron fan, but his average defense and excellence in other aspects of the game will more likely lead him to a championship before a defensive stud like Ron Artest.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

23AJ said:


> Actually Wade is a better defender then LeBron. Also Wade has already made all NBA defensive team. Where LeBron hasn't been close, and I really don't think he will ever be that good on defense against perimeter players because he's to slow, and has a habbit of falling off of his defenders to compenstate for their speed. I also don't see LeBron being a very good post defender either because he rarely plays in the post to develop those great defensive big man skills. E.G. Dennis Rodman, Charles Oakley, and Ben Wallace types.


How exactly is Wade a better defender than Bron? Want me to recall how many times Vince and other good guards have made a joke of his defense


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

HB said:


> How exactly is Wade a better defender than Bron? Want me to recall how many times Vince and other good guards have made a joke of his defense



Vince Carter can make anyone look silly from time to time. Vince is a top 5 wing player. Wade has also made Ron Artest look bad on the defensive end before, but I wouldn't say Artest isn't one of the best defenders in the game because of that. 

Wade is a much better defender then LeBron has been since they both came into the NBA. Hence the reason Wade has already made an All NBA defensive team, and LeBron hasn't.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

HB said:


> Wow just wow. Talk about hyping one player to make another look bad. Okay we get you are a Kobe fan, but thats just wrong. One man's defense is not going win a championship. Where did Ron Artest's defense lead a talented Sacramento team. I am not a big Bron fan, but his average defense and excellence in other aspects of the game will more likely lead him to a championship before a defensive stud like Ron Artest.


Well obviously it takes a team to win a chapionship, but dont undervalue defense by just one guy. Think about it this way. Why do you think the Chicago Bulls paid all that money for Ben Wallace ? To win the chip. Not to mention Wallace is very bad on the offensive end. Where Artest is very very good offensively, and great defensively.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Brandname said:


> Gilgamesh is making the exact same argument I would make.
> 
> First, Wade and Lebron are about on par defensively. Which is to say, average to above average. Duncan and Garnett are much better than Lebron defensively. But they also don't offer the offensive versatility that Lebron does.
> 
> ...


The thing is i don't really see Lebron James providing THAT sort of offensive wizardry...
Is he a great offensive player? Yeah, he is. But the same thing could be said about a guy like AI, who scored 33ppg AND dished out 7.4apg. Both BETTER than James (and discounting steals, too). why iusn't he in the discussion for best player in the world?

Lebron James' game has taken him to were he went. Duncan's combination of offensive and defensive presence has made his team win 3 championships. And that's my point.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Defense wins championships, you may be underrating defense by a big margin. *Ron Artest with out the psychological problems is on par with LeBron James*. The Reason Kobe Bryant is the best in the game is because he has the ability to raise his game on the defensive end, along with the offensive. Something LeBron is light years away from being able to do. (defensively)


woa! you lost all credibility with that statement. am i the ony one seeing this? if i said that about kobe i would have been banned


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> The thing is i don't really see Lebron James providing THAT sort of offensive wizardry...
> Is he a great offensive player? Yeah, he is. But the same thing could be said about a guy like AI, who scored 33ppg AND dished out 7.4apg. Both BETTER than James (and discounting steals, too). why iusn't he in the discussion for best player in the world?
> 
> Lebron James' game has taken him to were he went. Duncan's combination of offensive and defensive presence has made his team win 3 championships. And that's my point.


while i agree that duncan is better, the reason lebron is considered better than AI offensively is because he scored 1 less point taking less shots, and a better fg%, while dishing basically the same number of assists as iverson...who is a pg.


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## ballistixxx (Jan 24, 2006)

duncan2k5 said:


> while i agree that duncan is better, the reason lebron is considered better than AI offensively is because he scored 1 less point taking less shots, and a better fg%, while dishing basically the same number of assists as iverson...who is a pg.


meh, i think the only reason that they say he is better than AI is because he is more balanced (can be forward can be guard) and he is much younger, which means lots of room for improvement


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

23AJ said:


> Actually Wade is a better defender then LeBron.


No



23AJ said:


> Where LeBron hasn't been close, and I really don't think he will ever be that good on defense against perimeter players because he's to slow


He's faster than Ron Artest. He just doesn't yet have Artest's anticipation. Obviously that's something that can be developed. 



23AJ said:


> Ron Artest with out the psychological problems is on par with LeBron James.


Thank you for saying that. Otherwise, people reading this might have taken you seriously.

You're just another Kobe homer who feels threatened by Lebron. And you don't hide it very well. And just to be clear, most Kobe fans aren't like you. Most recognize that Kobe and Lebron can both be great.

You've always hated Lebron. You specifically try to make him sound worse than he is. He's definitely an above average defender, but not yet elite. You act as if he's Steve Nash on defense. 

Just give it time, I have a feeling Lebron and Wade will both become very good defenders in time. They just have to get a better feel for how to play defense consistently against NBA quality players.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> The thing is i don't really see Lebron James providing THAT sort of offensive wizardry...
> Is he a great offensive player? Yeah, he is. But the same thing could be said about a guy like AI, who scored 33ppg AND dished out 7.4apg. Both BETTER than James (and discounting steals, too). why iusn't he in the discussion for best player in the world?
> 
> Lebron James' game has taken him to were he went. Duncan's combination of offensive and defensive presence has made his team win 3 championships. And that's my point.


Well, I can't name all the reasons, but here are a few.

1) He scores less efficiently than Lebron.
2) He doesn't pass as well as Lebron.
3) He doesn't rebound as well as Lebron. 
4) He doesn't defend as well as Lebron (more subjective).
5) A perception that he's a selfish player (this is unfair to Iverson). People think he doesn't make his teammates better. I'm not sure whether this is true or not.
6) He's recently had less team success than Lebron.

And Iverson is underrated anyway. But this isn't even about Iverson.

Duncan has done great to win 3 championships. But to think that Duncan is the only reason the Spurs have won championships is shortsighted. The Spurs have been the model organization over the past several years, from drafting to finding international talent to coaching, etc. They're just a very well run organization. So they got their hands on some great players like David Robinson, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, a world-class defender in Bruce Bowen, all of which complement Duncan well.

The Spurs have been successful because they are a well-formed and managed team. Duncan has been a large part of it, but to say Duncan > Lebron because 3 Rings > 0 Rings is an extremely poor argument.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

Brandname said:


> Well, I can't name all the reasons, but here are a few.
> 
> 1) He scores less efficiently than Lebron.
> 2) He doesn't pass as well as Lebron.
> ...


i agree it is a piir arguement, but once again i ask, were manu and tony "great players" before they were on duncan's team? or did they BECOME great under duncan? you are taking away duncan's ability to make ppl better, which factors into him being better than LBJ


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Brandname said:


> No
> 
> *NO ?
> 
> ...


..


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

duncan2k5 said:


> woa! you lost all credibility with that statement. am i the ony one seeing this? if i said that about kobe i would have been banned


I'm not looking for credibility, I already believe in what I'm sharing. Do you come here to get some kind of reinforced support of your opinions/feelings regarding basketball ? If people agree with you great, if not so what. Besides it's the fact all of us have so many different opinions that make's web sites like these work so well.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Brandname said:


> Well, I can't name all the reasons, but here are a few.
> 
> 1) He scores less efficiently than Lebron.
> 2) He doesn't pass as well as Lebron.
> ...


1- True;
2- False;
3- Irrelevant (LBJ is taller and playing SF);
4- Debatable. I agree it's subjective;
5- Irrelevant;
6- Irrelevant.

So, IMHO, it leaves being the better efficient scorer.



> And Iverson is underrated anyway. But this isn't even about Iverson.


True. 



> Duncan has done great to win 3 championships. But to think that Duncan is the only reason the Spurs have won championships is shortsighted.


Yes, it would be shortsighted to say that. Wich i didn't. Still, he was the best player on those teams, the only all-nbaer onboard, a 2-time MVP and 3-times Finals MVP.



> The Spurs have been the model organization over the past several years, from drafting to finding international talent to coaching, etc. They're just a very well run organization. So they got their hands on some great players like David Robinson, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, a world-class defender in Bruce Bowen, all of which complement Duncan well.


In recent years, the Lakers won championships with 2 of the Top-5 players in the world. Detroit won it with a team of 4 all-stars. Duncan won with 2 different teams (roster considered). Wade won with a solid supporting cast. Lebron...



> The Spurs have been successful because they are a well-formed and managed team. Duncan has been a large part of it, *but to say Duncan > Lebron because 3 Rings > 0 Rings is an extremely poor argument.*


I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Tim Duncan > Lebron because he just is the better player (an healthy Duncan, that is). Lebron has the edge on scoring (i don't take passing into the equation because Lebron is expected to pass and Duncan not), while Duncan has the edge on defense, big game experience, savyy and poise, all demonstrated by the 3 rings he has on his hand.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> ...





AJ23 said:


> ...


Obviously keeping up the argument isn't going to convince you guys of anything. Your opinions about Lebron are well-documented.

And at this point, we're just going to argue subjective points anyway. You think Lebron's not on par with the best players in the game. I disagree. 

But you're making some really bad arguments here. There are a few legitimate arguments that people could make if they wanted to claim Lebron isn't the best in the league, but you're not making them. Saying things like Nash is as good of a defender as Lebron doesn't help your case at all. 

I think my point has been made well enough. Good luck with this season, and I hope Kobe all the best. I really do. He's one of my favorite players to watch.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

duncan2k5 said:


> i agree it is a piir arguement, but once again i ask, were manu and tony "great players" before they were on duncan's team? or did they BECOME great under duncan? you are taking away duncan's ability to make ppl better, which factors into him being better than LBJ


You're absolutely right. Duncan does make his teammates better. And that's a big part of why Tony and Manu are so good. But they'd be good anyway, just not as good as they are now. Lebron also makes his teammates better. He inherited a 17 win team, and he had them on the edge of taking out a 65 win team in the playoffs in just 3 years. What he's done for Cleveland can't be overestimated. 

The difference is that the Spurs can operate at least moderately efficiently without Duncan. Without Lebron, the Cavs are lost. Completely lost. They can't score, they can't defend, they can't win. 

I don't intend to downplay Duncan's effect on the Spurs. It's just that it almost always takes more than 1 great player to win a championship. And that's the difference between the Spurs and Cavs right now. The Spurs have solid veteran complementary players who've been deep into the playoffs before, as well as a championship caliber coach. Arguably the best in the league. 

I don't think the difference between the success of the Cavs and the success of the Spurs is due to the difference between Lebron and Duncan. The difference is in the rest of the team.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Brandname said:


> Obviously keeping up the argument isn't going to convince you guys of anything. Your opinions about Lebron are well-documented.
> 
> And at this point, we're just going to argue subjective points anyway. You think Lebron's not on par with the best players in the game. I disagree.
> 
> ...


Since you (kinda) quoted me, this is where i stand:
- An healthy Tim Duncan is the best player in the league;
- Kobe Bryant is the second best player around;
- Lebron James is not yet on par with Kobe. Kobe is better both on offense AND defense;
- Wade is closer to LBJ than LBJ is close to Kobe;
- T-Mac and KG suck.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Lebron James is very slow laterally


Very slow?


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Very slow?


Yeah, so?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Individual or team accomplishment, Duncan has everyone beat. More 1st team appeances, 1st team defense appearances, MVP's, finals MVP's, etc. 

Duncan's value lies in the rarity of the things he does. People can swear by Manu and Tony, and by god I love them both, but if it wasn't them, it would be someone else. Scoring guards are a dime a dozen. Good wing players are a dime a dozen. Great rebounders are not. Great interior defenders are not. Great shotblockers are not. Great post scorers are not. So when you have a guy who is top 5 at worst in each of those individual aspects, your team is probably going to be successful. Then you can throw in the fact that Timmy is easily the class of the league in terms of leadership. 

Building a contender around Tim Duncan is a whole lot easier than building around anyone else, and that's why people swear by his supporting cast, but if it wasn't them, it would be someone else, and people would be saying the same thing.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

wow...today really is sunday. excellent post patrick. repped


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

they said i have to spread rep around first...


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

23AJ said:


> ..


if you think kobe scoring 81 points is > than anything lebron has done...you have a warped sense of ahcievement in basketball. if that is the case, then wilt scoring 100 points in a game is better than anything he, or anyone else has ever done in NBA history, including the Big O averaging a triple double. that's like saying david robinson scoring 70+ points is greater than anything charles barkley, karl malone, etc ever did. you need to get your priorities straight. scoring isnt everything. if he scored 81 points in game 7 of the suns series...then you may ahve a point.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

HB said:


> Kobe Bryant is the best one on one player in the league. Tim Duncan is the best player in the league. Simple as that. The fact this went to 10 pages is baffling



Duncan is certainly not the best player in the league coming off the season he just had. 
This season his foot is healthy again, and he should be back to top form.


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

bballlife said:


> Duncan is certainly not the best player in the league coming off the season he just had.
> This season his foot is healthy again, and he should be back to top form.


Did you watch the series against the Mavericks? He was just fine when it counted last year. Sadly, Horry and Van Exel and Oberto completely sucked. But Timmy was awesome.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> Did you watch the series against the Mavericks? He was just fine when it counted last year. Sadly, Horry and Van Exel and Oberto completely sucked. But Timmy was awesome.



I am well aware of that, but I said SEASON. And last season his production dropped, as did his interior defense.


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

bballlife said:


> I am well aware of that, but I said SEASON. And last season his production dropped, as did his interior defense.


...ok, in the regular season...which doesn't count as much as the playoffs. When you talk about the season someone had, you don't include how someone did in the playoffs? Usually the playoffs are the biggest part of the SEASON, just not the regular season. :cheers:


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## da bully (Oct 17, 2006)

"kobeites" vs the "jordanaires" you gotta love it.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> ...ok, in the regular season...which doesn't count as much as the playoffs. When you talk about the season someone had, you don't include how someone did in the playoffs? Usually the playoffs are the biggest part of the SEASON, just not the regular season. :cheers:




When I judge a player, I like to do it over a long period of time, or play.


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## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

bump


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

bballlife said:


> Duncan is certainly not the best player in the league coming off the season he just had.
> This season his foot is healthy again, and he should be back to top form.


O RLY?


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Yup, I would have to amend my list.

There's no doubt in my mind right now that Tim Duncan is *currently *#1 in the league.


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## KingOfTheHeatians (Jul 22, 2005)

He's still a ****. Maybe that's why MJ likes him so much.


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## 604flat_line (May 26, 2006)

Kobe has gotta be the #1 one on one player

I agree that Duncan should be #1 player all around, though, but had the suspensions not happened to the Suns the consensus would definitely be that Nash is. Ah well, thats how the cookie crumbles.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

604flat_line said:


> but had the suspensions not happened to the Suns the consensus would definitely be that Nash is.


I doubt it.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

604flat_line said:


> Kobe has gotta be the #1 one on one player
> 
> I agree that Duncan should be #1 player all around, though, but had the suspensions not happened to the Suns the consensus would definitely be that Nash is. Ah well, thats how the cookie crumbles.


Exactly what the hell are you talking about?The Suns lost that series 4-2 didn't they?They had all their players and the Spurs were down a man when they were closed out.Nothing happened in that series to convince a reasonable observer that the Suns were as good when it counted as the Spurs are.

Saying that someone is better one on one is the dumbest thing ever too.WHo really cares.They don't pass out trophies for playing one on one.They don't give you NBA contracts for playing one on one.It doesn't have a damned thing to do with anything does it?


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

Diable said:


> Exactly what the hell are you talking about?The Suns lost that series 4-2 didn't they?They had all their players and the Spurs were down a man when they were closed out.Nothing happened in that series to convince a reasonable observer that the Suns were as good when it counted as the Spurs are.
> 
> Saying that someone is better one on one is the dumbest thing ever too.WHo really cares.They don't pass out trophies for playing one on one.They don't give you NBA contracts for playing one on one.It doesn't have a damned thing to do with anything does it?


Wow, and you're a moderator?

BTW, the person you quoted and needlessly attacked had a very good point. Kobe is a one-on-one player. He has no grasp of how to play team basketball. He only understands scoring 40 points himself or standing around or playing passively. He doesn't know when to take over and how to use his teammates. He also won't ever understand that, because he saw success early in his career doing what he's doing.

No way, no how is Kobe Bryant the best player in the NBA. Best scorer, yes. Best player...nope.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

EGarrett said:


> Wow, and you're a moderator?
> 
> BTW, the person you quoted and needlessly attacked had a very good point. Kobe is a one-on-one player. He has no grasp of how to play team basketball. He only understands scoring 40 points himself or standing around or playing passively. He doesn't know when to take over and how to use his teammates. He also won't ever understand that, because he saw success early in his career doing what he's doing.
> 
> No way, no how is Kobe Bryant the best player in the NBA. Best scorer, yes. Best player...nope.


Kobe is what he is. The ultimate gunner. No more, no less.

And as far as Jordan's comments, let's not forget that this is the guy who chose to trade away Rip Hamilton for Stackhouse and also staked his future on Kwame Brown.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

kobe has no idea how to play team ball. he'll never win a championship.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Diable said:


> Exactly what the hell are you talking about?The Suns lost that series 4-2 didn't they?They had all their players and the Spurs were down a man when they were closed out.Nothing happened in that series to convince a reasonable observer that the Suns were as good when it counted as the Spurs are.


they lost a close home game without one of the leagues best players and another key player. it's certainly reasonable to think the suns were every bit as good as the spurs.


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## imeugenera (Jul 5, 2007)

lebron = magic
kobe = jordan

there you go, everything works out now. :cheers:


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

imeugenera said:


> lebron = magic
> kobe = jordan
> 
> there you go, everything works out now. :cheers:


That definitely depends on your definition of "=".


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## imeugenera (Jul 5, 2007)

um, i tried to find a sign that said less than or equal to.


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## imeugenera (Jul 5, 2007)

basically my point is...when people compare lebron to jordan, they're comparing 2 different playing styles imo.
it's like comparing apples and oranges.
correct me if i'm wrong, lebron's playing style is more like magic's and kobe's playing style is more like mj's.

there's nothing wrong with being compared to magic (-HIV)


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

imeugenera said:


> basically my point is...when people compare lebron to jordan, they're comparing 2 different playing styles imo.
> it's like comparing apples and oranges.
> correct me if i'm wrong, lebron's playing style is more like magic's and kobe's playing style is more like mj's.
> 
> there's nothing wrong with being compared to magic (-HIV)


Ok then. I definitely agree that Lebron doesn't play like Jordan at all.

I don't think it's like Magic's either. If I had to describe Lebron's playing style, it would be something like:

Lebron = (Jordan - midrange jumper - 0.5*defense)/2 + (Magic - 0.5*passing)/2


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

*Re: Horrible*



remy23 said:


> NBA and FIBA rules are very different. You could well be the best player in the NBA and not be the best player in FIBA rules. For example, I like LeBron over Carmelo in the NBA but under FIBA rules, Anthony looks even better over there than he does in the NBA and *looks even a little better than James under those rules.* So no, your quick attempt to say "If you're great in the NBA, you're the best in international basketball" doesn't hold up.


But if he is the best overall player like you say he is then he should be able to adjust his game to the FIBA rules.

"looks a *lot* better than James under those rules"

Fixed.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Horrible*



t1no said:


> But if he is the best overall player like you say he is then he should be able to adjust his game to the FIBA rules.
> 
> "looks a *lot* better than James under those rules"
> 
> Fixed.


Tim Duncan struggled a lot in international play.


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

*Re: Horrible*



Brandname said:


> Tim Duncan struggled a lot in international play.


But he got tripled and Lebron didn't.

and guys, stop saying Lebron is a better rebounder than Kobe. Lebron is a SF and a lot bigger than Kobe.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Horrible*



t1no said:


> But he got tripled and Lebron didn't.


Actually, the terrible officiating is what threw him off the most. They constantly called him for travels that weren't happening.


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

*Re: Horrible*



Brandname said:


> Actually, the terrible officiating is what threw him off the most. They constantly called him for travels that weren't happening.


Getting tripled sure helped that.
and even then he still tried his best to make plays for his teammates instead of showing off.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Horrible*



t1no said:


> Getting tripled sure helped that.


I don't remember him getting tripled, so I can't really say anything about that.


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

*Re: Horrible*



Brandname said:


> I don't remember him getting tripled, so I can't really say anything about that.


:lol: of course... i still stand by what i said, if he is so great and the best overall player in the NBA then he could have easily adjusted his game to the FIBA rules.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Horrible*



t1no said:


> :lol: of course... i still stand by what i said, if he is so great and the best overall player in the NBA then he could have easily adjusted his game to the FIBA rules.


Why is that funny?

I do think Duncan is the best overall player in the NBA, no matter what happens in FIBA. Who the hell cares about FIBA anyway?


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

*Re: Horrible*



Brandname said:


> Why is that funny?
> 
> I do think Duncan is the best overall player in the NBA, no matter what happens in FIBA. Who the hell cares about FIBA anyway?


I didn't bring it up and you answered my post so i answered back, simple as that.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Horrible*



Brandname said:


> Why is that funny?
> 
> I do think Duncan is the best overall player in the NBA, no matter what happens in FIBA. *Who the hell cares about FIBA anyway?*


hehe.
Obviously, losers don't.


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

*Re: Horrible*



PauloCatarino said:


> hehe.
> Obviously, losers don't.


:rofl2: Now.. i find that very funny.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Horrible*



PauloCatarino said:


> hehe.
> Obviously, losers don't.


I meant as far as evaluating a player. Duncan's struggles in the Olympics don't change my perception of him at all. He's still the best player in the world, as far as I'm concerned.

Of course I want the US to win in the international competitions, and I love watching Team USA.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

'Melo carried team usa last year. case closed.

And Kobe is the best player currently in the NBA


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Horrible*



Brandname said:


> I meant as far as evaluating a player. Duncan's struggles in the Olympics don't change my perception of him at all. He's still the best player in the world, as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Of course I want the US to win in the international competitions, and I love watching Team USA.


Obviously, i easily concede that the best basketball players in the world play in the NBA. I don't think anyone can argue otherwise. 

Team USA had recent troubles against international competition because (i) international play is getting better and (ii) they have been somewhat overconfident. Hence, Team USA decided to change strategies and instead of fielding a team with guys who have played all their lives under NBA rules and, all of a sudden, they have a couple of moths to train playing under another set of rules, they are trying the continuity approach: the same core of players playing under FIBA rules for some time.

The San Antonio Spurs may very well be the *World *Champions, but the World Champion in International Team play has to abide to the FIBA rules...


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Read the site guidelines. This is not appropriate.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Tim Duncan is not the best player in the league! That's ridiculous.

I hate to put him down because he has three titles and is a great teammate and seems like an authentic class act, but that does not make him the best player in the NBA.

Tim Duncan is on a great great team and he fits his role. He is a superstar that fits into a great system. Which is fine because that is what basketball is about. That doesn't make him the best though. He's Kurt Warner on the Rams in the late ninties early 2000s. The Spurs just have been good for his ENTIRE CAREER.

If Tim Duncan was the best player in the league and this and that he wouldn't have become completely useless on the world level. He wouldn't have faded and disapeared when the spurs teams fell apart against the Lakers earlier this decade. 

Don't get me wrong, he is a great player and due to his myriad accomplishments he is a lock to go down as one of the greatest PF of all time but he is not as good as Kevin Garnett, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Shaq (in his day), and others as well...


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Horrible*



PauloCatarino said:


> Obviously, i easily concede that the best basketball players in the world play in the NBA. I don't think anyone can argue otherwise.
> 
> Team USA had recent troubles against international competition because (i) international play is getting better and (ii) they have been somewhat overconfident. Hence, Team USA decided to change strategies and instead of fielding a team with guys who have played all their lives under NBA rules and, all of a sudden, they have a couple of moths to train playing under another set of rules, they are trying the continuity approach: the same core of players playing under FIBA rules for some time.
> 
> The San Antonio Spurs may very well be the *World *Champions, but the World Champion in International Team play has to abide to the FIBA rules...


This is true. And I also think that Team USA is at a slight disadvantage because they have to go through more of an adjustment than the other teams because of the differences in rules. I mean, if Brazil's team had exactly as much talent as the USA team, I'd definitely put my money on Brazil because they grew up with international rules and don't have to adjust the same way USA does. 

We were fooled because the Dream Team was the most ridiculous collection of basketball talent ever (and other countries were just learning basketball), so the rule differences couldn't come close to making up the talent gap. Now the gap is smaller (worse NBA players, better international players), we obviously have to approach it differently. Hopefully keeping the same core of players together for international competition will help solve this problem. 

Now we just have to figure out how to get USA basketball players to shoot better.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

shobe42 said:


> Tim Duncan is not the best player in the league! That's ridiculous.
> 
> I hate to put him down because he has [strike]three[/strike]*four* titles and is a great teammate and seems like an authentic class act, but that does not make him the best player in the NBA.
> 
> ...


FTFY

It's obvious where you stand on the chicken/egg issue, and I used to think something similar (not nearly as harsh, though). But after playing against him in the Finals and watching him singlehandedly shut down our entire PF/C rotation, I have changed my mind. This guy is nothing less than dominant, and I have completely changed my tune. My favorite player, Lebron James, is definitely not as good as Tim Duncan right now. Maybe that will change later, but not now. 

Presumably you think Kobe is the best player in the league right now. But while you're knocking Duncan for not winning against the Shaq/Kobe Lakers during their run, remember that Kobe had a complete meltdown against the Pistons in the Finals, too. Great players sometimes have bad series. Hell, the Spurs just made Lebron look like a completely mediocre player, but I still think he's up in the top tier. No sense in knocking Duncan, Kobe, or Lebron for one or two bad series. 

And we're talking about right now. I don't see how you could say that Duncan isn't as good as KG. I love KG, but he's not as good as Duncan right now. And I don't think any of those perimeter players you listed are, either.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Although i think Kobe Bryant is the best player in the NBA, Tim Duncan is (easily) the most dominant.

You look at his entire career and it leaves little room to doubt that there was MJ, then Shaq, then Duncan. The guy is a perennial 1st teamer in BOTH teams. He has 4 championships as the franchise player.
Since he entered the league, and disregarding his rookie year, it took the great Kobe/Shaq Lakers and a 7th game, 8 point loss to the Mavs (in a game where Duncan went for 41-15-6) to prevent him for reaching the NBA Finals. He improves his stats in the playoffs.

IMHO, Duncan is the most dominant player in the league.

Question: You can pick any player to start a team to contend for the championship in the 2007-2008 season. Who do you pick first?
If the answer isn't Tim Duncan, someone hasn't been watching the guy...


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Brandname said:


> It's obvious where you stand on the chicken/egg issue, and I used to think something similar (not nearly as harsh, though). But after playing against him in the Finals and watching him singlehandedly shut down our entire PF/C rotation, I have changed my mind. This guy is nothing less than dominant, and I have completely changed my tune. My favorite player, Lebron James, is definitely not as good as Tim Duncan right now. Maybe that will change later, but not now.


Right. Duncan has a hand in everything the Spurs do. Without him, their big man rotation is Oberto, Elson and Horry. No team could even be above average with that frontcourt. Parker and Ginobili are awesome, but a lot of bad teams have great backcourts. Duncan makes an average team a great one. He is the funnel and focus of their entire defense. He is the 1st option in the halfcourt offense. Everything is run through him and fed off him.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Although i think Kobe Bryant is the best player in the NBA, Tim Duncan is (easily) the most dominant.


Seriously, what is the difference between "best" and "most dominant"?


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

the best would be a clutch/momentum-changing player. most dominant is most physically gifted like a beast.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

The best player is the one that does the most to help his team win games and win championship...Unless you have some esoteric logic that excludes the objective of the game from your argument.If you want to evaluate players on any other basis you are simply deluding yourself.It's very simple.The object of the game is to win the game.You start from scratch...You start out with any situation you like...You put together any set of circumstances under the sun and there's only one player in the NBA who truly does the most to help his team win basketball games.If Kobe were that guy you'd not be reading about how unhappy he is with one of the most successful franchises in the history of the game and his sycophants wouldn't have to make so many excuses for him.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

*Re: Horrible*



t1no said:


> :lol: of course... i still stand by what i said, if he is so great and the best overall player in the NBA then he could have easily adjusted his game to the FIBA rules.



Co-sign.


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