# Real GM Ranks Steve Francis 10th Best SG



## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

> After the worst season of his career in almost every statistical category, it may be hard to believe that Francis still deserves a spot on this list. However, Francis is one of the most skilled basketball players to ever grace the NBA courts. At 6-foot-3 and 200 pounds, Francis has the body of a running back and with the speed and vertical leap to boast, he can get to the hoop at will, while not being a liability on the defensive end.
> 
> Few remember Francis gracing the highlight reel on a daily basis, nicknamed Stevie Franchise. Most will now say, “Steve Francis? A franchise player? Don’t make me laugh.” But it was no laughing matter; Francis was the heir to Hakeem Olajuwon’s crown in Houston before a giant emerged from behind the Great Wall of China to take over the reigns.
> 
> Nearing 30 years of age, fans of Francis will hope to see him either moved out of New York, where he has never looked very comfortable or perhaps – just maybe – see Francis return to his glory days in a Knicks uniform and drop 20 points-per-game, five rebounds-per-game and five assists-per-game at the shooting guard spot under the tutelage of Isiah Thomas. But the fact remains that a player of Francis’ calibre needs to be on this list.


http://realgm.com/src_feature/659/20060817/the_top_shooting_guards_of_the_nba/


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

People have short memories...it wasn't _that _long ago that he was an all-star starter and arguably top 10. He hasn't had any major injuries, which leads me to believe that he can overcome whatever's been slowing him down the past few years. He might not be the player he once was, but he'll be a lot better than he has been. I don't know if NY is necessarily the best place for him though.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> People have short memories...it wasn't _that _long ago that he was an all-star starter and arguably top 10. He hasn't had any major injuries, which leads me to believe that he can overcome whatever's been slowing him down the past few years. He might not be the player he once was, but he'll be a lot better than he has been. I don't know if NY is necessarily the best place for him though.


I'm guilty of having a short memory, and just disregard his past achievements. I was trashing him last season. We sha'll see if he can have a good season in New York, otherwise we have to move him.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

You should probably move him now then, because I don't think he can be "Franchise" in New York with all those guards. I think he's going to be one of those guys that gets moved early in the season or training camp to a panicking team. 

I think it's going to be Denver personally. I think they'll start out slow again, and blame it on needing a 2, where he falls in. They've been needing one ever since Carmelo got there.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> People have short memories...it wasn't _that _long ago that he was an all-star starter and arguably top 10. He hasn't had any major injuries, which leads me to believe that he can overcome whatever's been slowing him down the past few years. He might not be the player he once was, but he'll be a lot better than he has been. *I don't know if NY is necessarily the best place for him though*.


Story of his career. There's never been a suitable 2nd option for him, unless you count Mobley. I thought he was starting to pass to Yao when they traded him. In Orlando, I was excited to see a fastbreak team with him and Howard, but then it turns out he can't run a break. He's never been compatible with a big man. Guards like that have a big problem.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

WTChan said:


> Story of his career. There's never been a suitable 2nd option for him, unless you count Mobley. I thought he was starting to pass to Yao when they traded him. In Orlando, I was excited to see a fastbreak team with him and Howard, but then it turns out he can't run a break. He's never been compatible with a big man. Guards like that have a big problem.


 He's like Allen Iverson, but not worth trying to build around. Not quite the scorer.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Right. He lacks the ability to move without the ball and shoot off screens. That's the biggest flaw in his game.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

WTChan said:


> Right. He lacks the ability to move without the ball and shoot off screens. That's the biggest flaw in his game.


Those are minor flaws that I believe could be improved upon because it's just a manner of finding a comfort zone performing those tasks. It's not like he has to learn much skill and since Francis is a guy that's a good bad shot good shot shooter, I think shooting off screens should not be a problem especially with the distance he can create between he and his defender with that speed of his. He may not be a guy to build around but could be one hell of a weapon if utilized correctly in a system. The ironic thing about all this is that correctly utilizing Francis might not be to have his offense come through a structured attack but through situations that call for isolation plays.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

If he knew how to shoot off screens, he would have done it by now. Running perimeter iso plays don't get a team very far. Players that don't know how to move without the ball don't get very far either. Most everybody knows how to move without the ball. It's a mentality thing.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

WTChan said:


> If he knew how to shoot off screens, he would have done it by now. Running perimeter iso plays don't get a team very far. Players that don't know how to move without the ball don't get very far either. Most everybody knows how to move without the ball. It's a mentality thing.



Back in his day, the offense ran outside of Francis. As the primary distributor on the team as well as it's best scorer, he'd have to create looks himself and his teammates. Plays where he'd move without the ball we're minimized as a result. You can not deny the fact that he's one of those good shot bad shot shooters so I can't see how it's impossible for him to hit those shots in that situation. Make sure you prepare him for those looks in training camp and he should be at least capable. As far as isolation plays not getting teams very far, the Sixers made the Finals in 2001 with Iverson basically running isolation plays. In fact, most teams run isolation plays in order to highlight the advantage they have offensively at certain positions but to varying extents.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

That Iverson example is one exceptional year in what, 60 for the NBA? They also played great defense that year, which makes up for offensive flaws. 

Francis is not a franchise player, and a few extra shots off screens is not going to turn him into one. He's not Allen Iverson. He's one of those players that's not worth giving free rein, but doesn't appear willing to play team basketball, which creates an obvious conflict. 

You're defending him by noting the years he was a star and his team's main option, but he only got to one playoff series, and he wasn't even "The Franchise" that year. That might have been his worst year.

If he could tame his aggressiveness, he would be a very good piece for a team, but he's one of those guys that thinks he's better than he is, and it's always trouble when you think you're a buildaround player but you're not.


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

that list must include _paul pierce, josh howard, ben gordon, corey maggette, andre iguodala, raja bell, morris peterson, ricky davis, and larry hughes_ as small forwards


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

TwinkieFoot said:


> Back in his day, the offense ran outside of Francis. As the primary distributor on the team as well as it's best scorer, he'd have to create looks himself and his teammates. Plays where he'd move without the ball we're minimized as a result. You can not deny the fact that he's one of those good shot bad shot shooters so I can't see how it's impossible for him to hit those shots in that situation. Make sure you prepare him for those looks in training camp and he should be at least capable. As far as isolation plays not getting teams very far, the Sixers made the Finals in 2001 with Iverson basically running isolation plays. In fact, most teams run isolation plays in order to highlight the advantage they have offensively at certain positions but to varying extents.


Francis has never proven he can play without the ball. The Sixers made the Finals not just by Iverson's isos, he came off screens too. Not to mention that team is better than any team Francis has ever been on.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> That Iverson example is one exceptional year in what, 60 for the NBA? They also played great defense that year, which makes up for offensive flaws.
> 
> *Francis is not a franchise player,* and a few extra shots off screens is not going to turn him into one. He's not Allen Iverson. He's one of those players that's not worth giving free rein, but doesn't appear willing to play team basketball, which creates an obvious conflict.
> 
> ...


Good and accurate post!


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

WTChan said:


> Francis has never proven he can play without the ball. The Sixers made the Finals not just by Iverson's isos, he came off screens too. Not to mention that team is better than any team Francis has ever been on.


A majority of the plays ran was off Iverson creating his own shot or shot's for his teammates. As for Francis, he has never proven he can play without the ball because he's never been trained for the oppurtunity to do so. You'd be surprised what certain players are capable of that you never see on a NBA floor because the system dicates them to play a particular way. That's not to say Francis' strong suit is playing off the ball but it does not mean it is not possible. I think he'd be dangerous along the baseline without the ball because of his ability to quickly get to the basket and finish. The fact that he'd also be behind the focus of the defense playing off the ball could only increase that natural ability. It may take time but he could become accostomed to it. I guess all this boils down to a matter of opinion.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

_Dre_ said:


> That Iverson example is one exceptional year in what, 60 for the NBA? They also played great defense that year, which makes up for offensive flaws.
> 
> Francis is not a franchise player, and a few extra shots off screens is not going to turn him into one. He's not Allen Iverson. He's one of those players that's not worth giving free rein, but doesn't appear willing to play team basketball, which creates an obvious conflict.
> 
> ...


The keyword there is that it is an exception which means there is a possibility. Just because I didn't mention other examples, does not mean that Sixer team was the only one to experience success in the playoffs off running isolation plays. The Celtics during the 2001-2002 made the Conference Finals basically isolating Pierce and Walker 24/7. It's been widely known (and why Shaq and Kobe had so many problems), that Kobe scored on quite a few isolation plays outside the triangle. They have 3 titles to show for that. Other teams such as the Carisle Pistons, the Carisle Pacers (with Artest) and even the Spurs run quite a few isolation sets in their offense.

I think the difference between you and I is that you believe that isolation plays are "flawed." Essentially, most teams in the past with structured offense must be flawed because they made their money off of isolation plays. I think that's where people came up with terms like "making your teammates better." That whole complex builds from superior players drawing enough attention to free their teammates up for open shots. How do you generally draw that attention to free your teammate up? By being a threat offensively. How do you be a threat offensively? Through isolation plays that cause the eventual help.


Also, I'd like for you to thread back throughout my posts and point out exactly where I claimed Francis to be a "franchise player." You won't be able to find it, and do you know why? Because I never said he was or will be one in the near future. What I do recall saying is that he could be a valueable asset within an offense because of his natural scoring ability. I could care less whether his teams made it into the playoffs are not because that is a team accomplishment and not the doings of one man. What I know is that he is a rare player and if utilized properly could be a solid player for the Knicks.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

kconn61686 said:


> that list must include _paul pierce, josh howard, ben gordon, corey maggette, andre iguodala, raja bell, morris peterson, ricky davis, and larry hughes_ as small forwards


Paul Pierce (prior to the Wally Szerzbiak deal), Josh Howard and Corey Maggette are commonly known as SF's. Ben Gordon, Andre Igoudala, Raja Bell and Morris Peterson do not change the dimensions of the game as much as Francis does. Ricky Davis and Larry Hughes are 2 guards that very well may be better than Francis.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

TwinkieFoot said:


> The keyword there is that it is an exception which means there is a possibility. Just because I didn't mention other examples, does not mean that Sixer team was the only one to experience success in the playoffs off running isolation plays. The Celtics during the 2001-2002 made the Conference Finals basically isolating Pierce and Walker 24/7. It's been widely known (and why Shaq and Kobe had so many problems), that Kobe scored on quite a few isolation plays outside the triangle. They have 3 titles to show for that. Other teams such as the Carisle Pistons, the Carisle Pacers (with Artest) and even the Spurs run quite a few isolation sets in their offense.
> 
> 
> *Those examples are not pertinent to this conversation. Sure, a complete team can run some isolations once in a while, but, unless I'm misunderstanding you, what I got from your post was asserting that Francis could replicate AI's success that year, which is highly unlikely. All those teams you mentioned were far from one man teams, which those unsuccessful rockets teams basically were. No team can win with an offense based on isolating one person. *
> ...


...


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

"_Those examples are not pertinent to this conversation. Sure, a complete team can run some isolations once in a while, but, unless I'm misunderstanding you, what I got from your post was asserting that Francis could replicate AI's success that year, which is highly unlikely. All those teams you mentioned were far from one man teams, which those unsuccessful rockets teams basically were. No team can win with an offense based on isolating one person_."- *Dre * 

No, I do not feel that Francis could replicate the Sixers success off running isolation plays for Iverson. I just wanted to show the naysayers that it could be possible to build an effective team with certain plays that you run in isolation sets. Of course it won't be to the extent that Philly ran iso's but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. You yourself acknowledged that the top tier teams in the league do it and the Knicks are far from a "one man team," themselves. I don't understand how you could claim "no team can win with an offense based on isolating one person" but acknowledge that the Sixers did so and made the Finals doing so in 2001.


"_If you're going to note his natural scoring ability as a rare trait, I'm going to disagree with you. "Scorers", moreso then any type of player of player, are always the players that have these basketball identity problems. They think their ability to score prolifically automatically makes them a franchise/all-star player, when other aspects of the game truly decide that. My argument is that Francis will never let himself fit into the "solid" category, because solidness implies efficiency, and usually unselfishness, two traits that don't apply to Francis_."- *Dre*

I'm confused yet again. You just mentioned earlier today at 4:45PM that "he (Francis) only got to one playoff series, and he wasn't even "The Franchise" that year. That might have been his worst year." How could Francis "never let himself fit into the 'solid category'" or be "unselfish" when you yourself mentioned that he had sacrificed his stats under Van Gundy for the better of the team? Wasn't like he couldn't put up better numbers because he did so the finally year with Magic. He made a conscientious decision to play to win so I don't know why it's unfathomable to do the same this year for our team.

Also, I don't know how "basketball identity problems" amongst scorers change the fact that scoring the ball is still a rare trait. I never said scorers were jack of all trades, I just said they could put the ball in the basket. In Francis' case, I think he does more than just the ball in the basket because he has very strong rebounding numbers and steals as a guard.


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## 0oh_S0o_FreSh!! (Jun 3, 2006)

They were lying.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

TwinkieFoot said:


> I don't understand how you could claim "no team can win with an offense based on isolating one person" but acknowledge that the Sixers did so and made the Finals doing so in 2001.
> 
> *You must be a very precise person. I think most people would say 1 out of 60 is just as good as none, especially considering the amount of teams/situations that have reinforced my notion. Yes, the Sixers did get to the finals, but that is an ultimate aberration. Just about everyone on that team besides Mutombo had about their greatest year ever, and even Deke was great. To try and base a team off that template, off of a situation where you expect one player to constantly bail you out is just irresponsible.*
> 
> ...


...


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

> Ben Gordon, Andre Igoudala, Raja Bell and Morris Peterson do not change the dimensions of the game as much as Francis does. Ricky Davis and Larry Hughes are 2 guards that very well may be better than Francis.




Raja Bell is one of the best defensive players in the NBA who scores and shoots at a high percentage, while never commanding the ball. he is a popular teammate. starts on a title contender. francis is not that

ben gordon is a career 16 ppg scorer in 27 min per game. shoots 42% from 3 in his career, one of the best clutch players in the game, go to guy in the 4th Q. francis is not that

andre iguodala is a stud defender and rising star on offense. he only takes 8.4 shots per game and is a way more capable rebounder. he can actually guard his position, has tremendous upside in every fascet of his game and plays a defined role. francis- none of that.

mo pete is similar to francis, except he can specialize in shooting the 3 ball and stretch the defense, especially because he is compatable with a great low post player, making him more valuable.



also, how is it that some are comparing steve francis to allen iverson??? iverson has lead a team to the finals, francis has how many playoff wins? 0 or 1? iverson has won an mvp, averages 33 and 8 ast, plays 40 min a game and is always banged up, the all-nba awards lean strongly in iverson's favor.


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## 0oh_S0o_FreSh!! (Jun 3, 2006)

kconn61686 said:


> *Raja Bell is one of the best defensive players in the NBA * who scores and shoots at a high percentage, while never commanding the ball. he is a popular teammate. starts on a title contender. francis is not that
> 
> ben gordon is a career 16 ppg scorer in 27 min per game. shoots 42% from 3 in his career, one of the best clutch players in the game, go to guy in the 4th Q. francis is not that
> 
> ...



:laugh:


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I looked at the list and thought it was pretty accurate as francis is coming off a down year and is switching positions. And as a top 10 player at his position if his head is screwed on right and thomas uses him properly he should be very good for the knicks...but that remains to be seen.


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

big deuce, how can you possibly say raja bell is not a great defender?


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

kconn61686 said:


> Raja Bell is one of the best defensive players in the NBA who scores and shoots at a high percentage, while never commanding the ball. he is a popular teammate. starts on a title contender. francis is not that
> 
> ben gordon is a career 16 ppg scorer in 27 min per game. shoots 42% from 3 in his career, one of the best clutch players in the game, go to guy in the 4th Q. francis is not that
> 
> ...


Remind me when does a popularity contest makes you a better player than another person? Silly me, I always thought it was skill. While Raja Bell is an excellent defender and above average jump shooter, he's not Steve Francis. There's a reason why Raja has been a journey man working around the NBA from contract to contract. I guess his popularity hasn't payed off here. He has never made multiple all-star games like Steve Francis or for that matter even one. I think this tale could be told in the numbers by career averages with Raja Bell averaging 8.8ppg, 2.5rpg and 1.4apg with .68 steals. Francis' career averages are 19ppg, 6rpg, 6apg and about 2spg. Although Francis may have been a debateable player to build around, the fact of the matter is he was skilled enough to have the Rockets believing they could do so, something that has never happened to Raja.

Gordon may average 16ppg over his career but 16ppg is a down year for Francis. Although Gordon is obviously a better prospect because of his age, let's not get it twisted. Francis is still the better player and this tale could also be told in the numbers. Don't tell me any nonsense that there's more to the game than stats because these guys don't bring very many if any intangibles to the game to be considered. Both are guys who do things like score the ball that come up in the stat sheet.


Keyword with Igoudala is that he is a "rising star." He's still trying to find himself as a player. I noticed that despite all his skill and athleticism that he's pretty inconsistent as a player. It's evident he has not put it all together yet but no one really knows the answer to why. Most blame AI and Webber being selfish but I believe that people just may forget that this may be who Igoudala is. At Arizona, he was a role player and was bashed by guys like Dick Vatile (who was wrong) for the Sixers selecting a guy like him so high. Think what you want but Francis changes the game more in my mind because I can't see anyone at any point and time trying to build around him as the focal point of a team. This comes down to a matter of opinion.

Morris Peterson has just been able to get off the bench so I would hardly consider him to be as a good as a guy that's still in his prime and has multiple all-star appearances. Morris is a nice role player but he has similar problems to Igoudala because of his inconsistencies. He was on my fantasy roster so I payed attention to him and Toronto particularly closely during the year so I'm fimilar with his situation. It's possible that he may become better than Francis but I doubt his ability to shoot the 3 pointer is not the deciding factor behind anything, it just means that he can do one thing better.


Once again, reread the thread slowly. People tend to jump to too many conclusions without understanding what others are saying. I said Francis could be used in a similar fashion in the offense to the way AI was with the Sixers. Does that mean I think he's as effective as Iverson? *NO!* Does that mean I think we could build a team or our offense around him? *NO!* Does that mean we're going to run every offensive play through Francis? *NO!* During the course of the year, the Lakers ran a couple plays for Laron Profit where Kobe would normally recieve the ball. Does that mean I think Profit is the next Kobe at 30? *NO!* Hell, Tim Thomas could be run in certain plays the Mavericks run Nowikiti in where they isolate him at the top of the key and allow him to isolate. Both are athletic 6-11 ft/ 7 ft players that have the ability to shoot the ball with range and accuracy. Does that mean Tim Thomas could have a team build around him? *NO!*


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

"_You must be a very precise person. I think most people would say 1 out of 60 is just as good as none, especially considering the amount of teams/situations that have reinforced my notion. Yes, the Sixers did get to the finals, but that is an ultimate aberration. Just about everyone on that team besides Mutombo had about their greatest year ever, and even Deke was great. To try and base a team off that template, off of a situation where you expect one player to constantly bail you out is just irresponsible_."-*Dre*

And I think your not which is why we're having this conversation in the first place. *ONCE AGAIN, I NEVER SAID WE SHOULD RUN EVERY PLAY IN A GAME FOR FRANCIS OR BUILD OUR OFFENSE AROUND HIM, I JUST SAID WHEN HE DOES HAVE A PLAY RUN FOR HIM IT COULD COME OFF ISOLATIONS LIKE IVERSON.* The Sixers are one of a few exceptions that made the Finals off running a majority of their plays off of isolations but since they are one of the extreme cases, it just show's that any team that uses isolation plays could enjoy success if run probably. We would not be an extreme case so in Francis' situation, I suggest we run a few of those isolation sets and let him do his thing. The rest of the offense could flow freely in a team game as it should with the talent we have but when it comes to Francis, I think we should look to isolate him ON PLAYS INTENDED FOR HIM a majority of the time. NOT ALL OF THE TIME, but a majority of the time when we run a play for HIM (FRANCIS). As far as every Sixer enjoying there best season, what's your point? It's called good team building. I don't know what you intend to say though when you claim "even Deke" did because he's enjoyed much better season's in the past. I think we're forgetting this guy had established himself as a defensive juggernaut who use to block 4 shots at the least on the regular while snatching 13-14rpg and contributing double digit points. When he got to the Sixers most had claimed he had been slowing down and that was evident by the eventual drop in his production directly following that season.



"_Oncourt he sacrificed, but in the big picture, did he really? He did sacrifice that one year oncourt, but not at the expense of letting everyone know he was sacrificing, and noting numerous times that he couldn't get used to playing that style. Why do you think Francis left the very next year? He didn't want to restrain himself. And yes, he did get his stats in Orlando, but not before getting ran out of there too for stunting Dwight Howard's development, just like he did Yao. Part of being a solid team player is playing to win and shutting up about it_."- *Dre*

Yeah, he really did sacrifice because he could have played his game and break set plays as Baron Davis often does with the Warriors, pissing Montgemory off. He could have demanded a trade which he did not all year. What he did do was be honest an explain what was the reason behind his lack of normal production in response to people asking him it's cause. What's wrong with that? I'll tell you why Francis left and it was not because he demanded a trade (he actually didn't want to leave Houston and grieved about it openly); he left because the Rockets had the oppurtunity to land an even better player in Tracy McGrady who could play his game to it's potential without curtailing it in their system.


"_Scorers are the easiest thing to find in basketball. Tweener guards who score are a dime a dozen, and few times are they looked at as a good thing to have. Yes, there are good tweener guards, but usually they are trained one way or the other, or become a complete mystery to build around, perfect example Allen Iverson_."-*Dre* 

Really? If that's the case then why are all top notch scorers locked up to the richest deals in the game? Why is it that the top notch defenders like the Bruce Bowen's, Ben Wallace's, Raja Bell and Adrian Griffin (and he is one), generally float around from team to team despite being clearly the best at what they do? Maybe because this is all based on supply and demand. Scoring on a pro level is very hard which is why you don't see very many 20ppg scorers shooting a decent percentage. This is why they are generally offered the best deals in this sport so I'll stick to my statement about Francis' ability to score being rare. As for tweener guards being hard to build around, it's been done before with Isiah Thomas, Nate Archibald and others. Even Allen Iverson himself could be put onto that list because you don't have to win a title in order to have a successful team. For a few years, the Sixers dominated the Eastern Conference and the league. That being said, NO, this does not mean that Steve Francis or Stephon Marbury are as good as the aforementioned. What it does mean is that it's possible and if it is, then there's no reason why proper management could not make it work.


_"Identifying Francis as a "rare scorer" doesn't really cut it for me, because that really doesn't distance himself from the lot of guards in the league. If you said at first that he's special as a guard "because he has very strong rebounding numbers and steals as a guard", fine. But Francis is not a rare scorer, not at the 2."_-*Dre*

RealGM said it best when that "at 6-foot-3 and 200 pounds, Francis has the body of a running back and with the speed and vertical leap to boast, he can get to the hoop at will, while not being a liability on the defensive end." I think some of us do have short memories because I remember this guy being the focus of an entire defense. You don't become that from not being a rare scorer. Not only could he get past them but take the contact and finish consistently. That doesn't come around very often. Over the course of his career, he has averaged 19ppg which only a handful of players have done throughout their entire career. It's a pretty surprising number.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

TwinkieFoot said:


> And I think your not which is why we're having this conversation in the first place. ONCE AGAIN, I NEVER SAID WE SHOULD RUN EVERY PLAY IN A GAME FOR FRANCIS OR BUILD OUR OFFENSE AROUND HIM, I JUST SAID WHEN HE DOES HAVE A PLAY RUN FOR HIM IT COULD COME OFF ISOLATIONS LIKE IVERSON.
> 
> *Fair enough, but it wasn't worth screaming. You should have reinforced that you were trying to say in the first place. You made it unclear, referencing a team that based itself on the isolation in reference to a team that could run a few isolation plays? That doesn't click. Your Spur example was more apt.*
> 
> ...


....


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

i think whats missing from this discussion is that Francis is not mentally that player he once was and no team is gonna place him back on that pedestal again .His being the focal point is not good enough to win you a lot of games and hes not mentally capable of playing within a team concept in which he is not allowed to hold the ball and try to create for himself. He has given no indication that hes mentally ready to get back to what he was or that he even wants to be in Ny. Francis has basically been giving the "its nothing wrong with me its all of you" vibe since he left Houston. Is he ready to accept that he has to adapt his game.Its up to him to convince us not for us to convince him. The choice is his .


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

TRUTHHURTS said:


> i think whats missing from this discussion is that Francis is not mentally that player he once was and no team is gonna place him back on that pedestal again .His being the focal point is not good enough to win you a lot of games and hes not mentally capable of playing within a team concept in which he is not allowed to hold the ball and try to create for himself. He has given no indication that hes mentally ready to get back to what he was or that he even wants to be in Ny. Francis has basically been giving the "its nothing wrong with me its all of you" vibe since he left Houston. Is he ready to accept that he has to adapt his game.Its up to him to convince us not for us to convince him. The choice is his .


 Lol, that's a big chunk of my argument, read it over...good point though ....


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> People have short memories...it wasn't _that _long ago that he was an all-star starter and arguably top 10. He hasn't had any major injuries, which leads me to believe that he can overcome whatever's been slowing him down the past few years. He might not be the player he once was, but he'll be a lot better than he has been. I don't know if NY is necessarily the best place for him though.


Francis was always overrated because he was flashy. Of course, I'm not a big fan of 1 on 5 players.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

TRUTHHURTS said:


> i think whats missing from this discussion is that Francis is not mentally that player he once was and no team is gonna place him back on that pedestal again .His being the focal point is not good enough to win you a lot of games and hes not mentally capable of playing within a team concept in which he is not allowed to hold the ball and try to create for himself. He has given no indication that hes mentally ready to get back to what he was or that he even wants to be in Ny. Francis has basically been giving the "its nothing wrong with me its all of you" vibe since he left Houston. Is he ready to accept that he has to adapt his game.Its up to him to convince us not for us to convince him. The choice is his .


Francis is convinced that he is the same player he was in Houston. You know the player that never knew how to play for the good of the team.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> Francis is convinced that he is the same player he was in Houston. You know the player that never knew how to play for the good of the team.


 THANK YOU!!!!!


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

_"Fair enough, but it wasn't worth screaming. You should have reinforced that you were trying to say in the first place. You made it unclear, referencing a team that based itself on the isolation in reference to a team that could run a few isolation plays? That doesn't click. Your Spur example was more apt."_-*DRE*

Reinforced? I mentioned the Sixers because they were one of the extreme examples that ran almost all sets as isolation plays. By mentioning the extreme that so many thought to be impossible, I tried to make a statement that isolating Francis in sets could work since it would not be to such a great degree. I don't know how you infered that I meant have the offense focus solely around Francis because I even mentioned "most teams run isolation plays in order to highlight the advantage they have offensively at certain positions but to varying extents." I even used examples of the team's that use isolation plays frequently to reinforce that point.


_"No. Way. That was definitely a two way trade, and Francis definitely wasn't some trooper about that year. Francis was sending shots at JVG all year, and after he got traded to Orlando, he goes in SLAM bashing him, screaming **** you JVG with his middle fingers up. Oh yeah, that's definitely how a lunchpail player does it. The T-Mac thing is part of it, but...Francis was definitely happy, probably happier than T-Mac, at being traded."_-*DRE*

Really? According to Wikipedia, a widely respected source of information ",as (Francis') relationship with coach Van Gundy deteriorated it was apparent that the Rocket franchise wanted to go into a different direction....at first, Francis was unhappy with the trade, but adapted to his new environment. Francis flourished in the "run n' gun" offense of interim head coach Chris Jent." Sounds to me that I was not the only one who interpreted the situation the way it was. Wikipedia also had a much different opinion about the T-Mac situation as well: "Despite McGrady's personal accolades, the Magic had failed to reach the second round in the playoffs, and in his fourth season as a Magic, problems with team chemistry, coaching, and management forced Orlando into a downward spiral. The season ended with Orlando failing to reach the playoffs and *an impatient McGrady seeking a possible trade*."


"_You said it yourself, "top notch". There are top notch scorers, who can "shoot a decent percentage", then their are the lesser scorers in the league who move around just as much as those defenders. If defenders were really as common as you make them out to be, Defense wouldn't be as big a problem as it has been the last few years. In the same vein, efficient offense was at a dearth the last couple years, which is why so many of those top-notch scorers had trade rumors around them, and guys like Francis ultimately got moved_."-*Dre* 

LOL. If lesser scorers are moved around just as much as the TOP NOTCH DEFENDERS IN THE LEAGUE THAT I MENTIONED EARLIER, it clearly show's what is more valued in the league. You said it yourself when you refered to them as "lesser" players. As for defense being a big problem, how do you infer so? I'm confused because even reporters and commentators got it right when they been saying the league has clearly made rules FAVORING offense. If their making rules FAVORING offense, then don't you believe that it is a direct result of the defense being too effect? Also, name me the top-notch scorers the last couple of years that were ultimately moved? Garaunteed, none of those deals made the team better and were made for much different reasons besides bringing in talent.

_"Lesser scorers move around maybe even more than defenders, reason being because there are more of them. Bobby Jackson, Ricky Davis, even a guy like Keith Van Horn. The reason all these players move around so often is because they generally lack skills in the other aspects of the game." _-*Dre*

Bobby Jackson and Keith Van Horn were both injury prone which caused alot of teams to question signing these players to a long term deal. Ricky Davis has only been moved twice as an established scorer and the first time was because of his demeanor and the second because of fits. The second time, he brought in another scorer in Wally Szerzbiak so that should say alot. They may "lack skills in other aspect of the game" but the fact doesn't change that they are heavily valued which is evident from there last deals or the ones they recieved. Van Horn for instance made $15 million last season.


_"And BTW, Ben just got a megadeal, Raja is probably staying in Phoenix because he showed he can play offensively in that system, and Bruce Bowen went from a good defender to a great one as a product of Tim Duncan. No team would pass on DPOY Bruce Bowen." _-*Dre * 

We'll see how much that deal works out with Ben Wallace. He did get a huge deal but before that was making just $7.5 million last year IN HIS PRIME. The Pistons won a title with him anchoring there defense and it was awfully telling how much they valued him when they let him walk away. Maybe they were right to do so because so many people claim that the Bulls overpaid for Ben out of desperation so we shall see. Raja may stay with the Suns but he is rather cheap so no big loss keeping him despite them being a cost conscientious team. As for Bruce Bowen and no team passing on him, 28 teams passed on him draft night in 93, the Heat passed on him on 2 seperate ocassions as did the Celtics, Sixers and this year's USA team. He's a nice player but is replaceable which is evident by even San Antonio reporters that bashed the Spurs for not selecting Josh Howard at the advice of Tim Duncan to eventually replace Bowen.


"_...Nevertheless, you're still making my point for me. Thomas and Archibald, who I don't necessarily buy being Tweeners, are hall of fame exceptions_."-*Dre*

Hopefully you can make your own point because so far I'm not seeing it. As for Thomas and Archibald not being tweeners, how could you infer that when they were 6-0 and 5-10 respectively? Sounds to me like they were small fry's that dominated and turned teams into champions.


_"You see infinitely more offenses throughout history led by the 6-6 SG or big man than you do 6-1 combo guards, simply because it's easier to run an offense around these players. It's just easier to do."_-*Dre*

Besides' Jordan's Bulls, I don't recall any team lead by a 6-6 SG winning a title. You'd be my guest to name a few. Also, to add to my list of tweener guards that have successfully had a team built around them, Dwayne Wade.


"_This should be my time to scream, but I'm gonna keep it civilized. All that stuff is fine, and I agree with some of it for Francis, but you said he was a rare asset because of his scoring ability, and after I argued that, you came with him being a good defender, etc. I said if you were to say he was rare because as a tweener, he can be the focal point of a defense, fine, but I wouldn't call him rare based on his offensive ability_."-*Dre*

Well, I haven't been screaming. All I've been doing is attempting to highlight key points to avoid writing so much and avoid confusion. As far as Francis being a rare scorer, I still stand by that. I guess this does boil down to a matter of opinion.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Yeah, it basically does boil down to opinion. We're going nowhere here. I'll just offer this middle ground to get it over with. 

Steve Francis is a good player when the system suits him. That's it.


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## Sixerfanforlife (Jun 23, 2005)

Steve Francis is one of the most inconsistant shooting guards in the game of basketball and does not deserve this ranking.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

_Dre_ said:


> Yeah, it basically does boil down to opinion. We're going nowhere here. I'll just offer this middle ground to get it over with.
> 
> Steve Francis is a good player when the system suits him. That's it.


Agreed. Good debate.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

there are alot of things about steve francis that are quite likable.

he slashes to the hoop relentlessly despite being a small guard.

he is the only knick that double teams post players aggresively

- think about it how many times have you seen teams just run at eddy curry to bother and strip him ...and now think about how many knicks you've seen do that to other team's post players.

in a team's scheme thats important in the make up of how teams defend...you got to have at least one of those kind of defenders.

he boards far greater than his staure dictates he should 

he can break down defenses well off the dribble 

he can pass.

he can shoot well from mid range

he is clutch.

he hustles.

he is tough. and sticks up for his teammates.

if he were making 5 million dollars a year instead of 14 every1 would like him and he would get far better press...which to me amounts to pettyness, it not his fault the rockets deemed him a max player ...was he supposed to diagree and take less money?

his main flaw really isn't his fault , he is a a guy who has been groomed his entire career as a primary scorer and the nba tends to specialize players...no one in his pro career has ever asked him to move without the ball , in fact Rudy T changed the offense when he 1st got there to have more iso's with him and cuttino and took the team away from olajuwon to do this.

in orl. there was a 30 point a game void left bt Tmac ...so obviously they wanted him to score to his heart's content to make the trade look smarter ...also the orlando teammates had gotten used to having T-mac do it all...so there was ample opportunity for francis and cuttino to shoot as much as they pleased.

he now has to learn to score as part as an ensemble cast and find other ways to make himself useful. he certainly talented enough to do , time will tell.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> there are alot of things about steve francis that are quite likable.
> 
> he slashes to the hoop relentlessly despite being a small guard.
> 
> ...


We appear to have the same opinion on the topic so I agree with what your saying. I think people are just so depressed with the situation that they honestly believe that any collection of these players could not contribute to a winning team. Personally, I believe Francis could play the 2 guard for us and do so well. I don't understand why people are so steadfast about what a player can not do rather than what he can do. On top of that, people are so quick to consider these flaws as unchangeable. Hopefully this season we'll prove the naysayers wrong. You think KG maximizes the potential of both Marbury and Francis together or minimizes it?


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

Steve Francis is a very talented basketball player with an absolutly awful attitude,anyone who goes to the super bowl while he`s supposed to be suiting up has no place in a team sport,his career has declined considerably and the Knicks acquiring him was just another mistake in the ongoing saga of the board making the Knicks look like the joke they have been recently.

Personally i would like to see Francis moved on ASAP


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

TwinkieFoot said:


> We appear to have the same opinion on the topic so I agree with what your saying. I think people are just so depressed with the situation that they honestly believe that any collection of these players could not contribute to a winning team. Personally, I believe Francis could play the 2 guard for us and do so well. I don't understand why people are so steadfast about what a player can not do rather than what he can do. On top of that, people are so quick to consider these flaws as unchangeable. Hopefully this season we'll prove the naysayers wrong. You think KG maximizes the potential of both Marbury and Francis together or minimizes it?


i think a cloud has taken hold of the francis situation too...and the reason is this , he was expected to be a dominant player ...but he was an avg. player .

he played well enough but he basically fit in when he was supposed to stand out, and the reason is he was not in his element ...LB beleives in minimal ballhandling from his guards unless they are trying to score and even then he doesn't want them pounding the ball too much.

francis excels as a volume ball handler , he needs the ball to be in a flow and he only got that a few times during his tenure with the knicks ....if the knicks basically said screw it and just gave the ball to the guards and told every1 else to finish when they got it the knicks would be far better off.

in francis , marbury and JC they have 3 guys who are capable of running the team and being its star player at guard but all need the ball. In my opinion I say give it to them they have ample back up in Jalen, nate and mardy all guys who can handle the ball well allowing for injuries and still guys who can play PG and let those guys gun if they get hot.

KG would most likely help out the bigs more than the guards, KG for all his benefits is not a clutch shooter but rebounds, defends, and passes with the best of them...he needs a guard to take the pressure shots more than they need him...but with garnett defending the lane and gobbling up rebounds they would be less talk about what curry and frye are grabbing and defending plus he is an excellent passer he would get them extra baskets.

garnett knows his game , which is why he would love marbury on his team ...and this is also why there was a problem with garnett getting bigger money than stephon when they were together .

marbury's reasoning was he was actually the guy taking the shots that won or lost the game ...why should he be paid less....In truth i kind of agree with him on that...I'm a firm believer in paying guys strictly on their contributions to winning basketball games ...and garnett has been largely overrated because he needs a guard who is very clutch (either spree cassell or marbury) or his teams are not gonna be very good.

on the knicks of today every1 is paid alot so money is no longer an issue. it would be a good fit.


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