# Some draft thoughts (post lottery)



## SheriffKilla

IMO, the Sixers should draft Cousins, I mean Turner is like a more skilled (potentially) less athletic Iggy and they also have Young and Jrue...
Brand is clearly past his prime and Dalembert and Speight are aite but nothing to brag about, I would go with Big Cuz as the best fit and also wouldnt be surprised to see them pick Favors either...
Im not a Nets fan but Turner would be a great fit for them....
The TWolves will probably get Wes Johnson who should be a solid player but Im not sure I would take him over Cousins/Favors.... Might as well trade the pick or either Jefferson or Love, I would probably say trade Jefferson and keep the pick and Love...
Shoud be intersting who Kings end up with since Petrie has proven to be really good in the draft and they have sort of the cut off pick and for some reason I dont see them drafting Cousins if he slides...


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## cpawfan

As long as Cousins goes 2 or 4, I'm happy.

I'm not as high on Turner as a lot of people are (looking at you HKF), but I'd gladly take him over Cousins. Also, he'll contribute more than Favors from Day 1. Plus, if Turner is drafted, that will hopefully keep the Nets from wasting money overpaying Rudy Gay. On the downside, if they do get lucky and draft Turner, they will probably waste money overpaying David Lee.

Turner to the Sixers makes a lot of sense, and with Stefanski in charge, I at least have hope that the sensible thing won't occur. After all, Stefanski is the guy that was convinced Antoine Wright was the next Allan Houston.


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## futuristxen

Why does Wall make any sense for the Wizards? They have a max contract point guard already, who is basically untradeable.

Wouldn't it make more sense to replenish their forward spots after losing Jamison and Butler? I.e. drafting Cousins or Turner?


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## Nimreitz

Way too much "obviously Turner goes #2" talk last night. I started saying it in March and I stick by it, DeMarcus Cousins is the second best guy in the draft. Turner has a lot of good attributes, but he's missing SOMETHING, whereas DeMarcus Cousins did things that I don't remember ever seeing from a college player. At least not in a decade.


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## jericho

Wall makes sense for the Wizards because they have no intention of trying to build a contender around Arenas. Either he finds a way to fit into a team run by Wall (and cottons to the idea of playing mentor to a young'un), or Washington showcases him long enough to figure out a way to trade him. Ultimately they'd rather continue to pay him big bucks to ride the pine, or swap him for some other contractual albatross(es) who will be less troublesome, than continue trying to hitch an entire franchise's wagon to the train of an immature, gunning combo guard who seems injury-prone.

Really, a lot rides on what they think of Wall. If they see the same promise as does Magic Johnson (quoted by Mike Wilbon in the Washington Post this morning as calling Wall a "special" point guard and a no-brainer pick), then the course is pretty clear. They experiment with a Wall/Arenas backcourt for at least a year to give Wall time to learn the NBA position and to determine whether, between them, they can share the ball and play enough defense.


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## cpawfan

Nimreitz said:


> Way too much "obviously Turner goes #2" talk last night. I started saying it in March and I stick by it, DeMarcus Cousins is the second best guy in the draft. Turner has a lot of good attributes, but he's missing SOMETHING, whereas DeMarcus Cousins did things that I don't remember ever seeing from a college player. At least not in a decade.


From your fingers to Ed Stefanski's eyes :gopray:

That said, I don't agree with you at all


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## cpawfan

futuristxen said:


> Why does Wall make any sense for the Wizards? They have a max contract point guard already, who is basically untradeable.
> 
> Wouldn't it make more sense to replenish their forward spots after losing Jamison and Butler? I.e. drafting Cousins or Turner?


Sunk costs are sunk costs. The Wizards are in a complete rebuild and the players under contract don't matter. They need to take the best player.


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## jericho

cpawfan said:


> Sunk costs are sunk costs. The Wizards are in a complete rebuild and the players under contract don't matter. They need to take the best player.


You said it more concisely than I did. 

Also, if I'm not mistaken the Wizards have around $20 million to spend this year if they choose to. It wouldn't be crazy of them to try to land someone like Bosh or Boozer, although I'd just as soon they bring in a lower-priced role player and save their nickels for next offseason when Durant and/or Carmelo could be looking to change addresses.


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## MemphisX

I think the Wizards go after Baltimore native Rudy Gay. Wall+Arenas+Gay+Blatche+McGee???

I still think you can get that #2 pick if you swallow Brand.


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## jericho

I'd much rather see the Wizards start to build a decent rotation of bigs than go after Gay.


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## rebelsun

Nimreitz said:


> Way too much "obviously Turner goes #2" talk last night. I started saying it in March and I stick by it, DeMarcus Cousins is the second best guy in the draft. Turner has a lot of good attributes, but he's missing SOMETHING, whereas DeMarcus Cousins did things that I don't remember ever seeing from a college player. At least not in a decade.


Cousins is a top-2 talent in this draft, but when factoring in intangibles, it's no slam dunk. I would probably agree that Turner seems just short of having legitimate Kobe/Wade/LeBron 'superstar' quality, but the guy is about as polished and productive as you'll ever find at the college level. Positional needs aside, it would be very difficult to pass on a Brandon Roy/Grant Hill (pre-injury) type. Some have compared Turner's downside to Larry Hughes, but I think that's almost insulting. Turner is a combo wing, which has more value than a combo guard, and already has more polish than Larry ever had. Beyond injury, his downside is very, very limited. DeMarcus seems eerily similar to Derrick Coleman, who was also wildly talented and equally immature. Looking at Coleman's career stats, I think this is what teams are afraid of with Cousins:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/colemde01.html

First few years were fantastic, 20/10/3 on solid shooting percentages. After that, his FG% plummets, and he starts camping out at the 3pt line before rapidly fading into oblivion. He's definitely a high risk/reward pick and will need a very stable, nurturing environment to avoid that fate. Turner not only has none of those concerns, he probably has plus-plus intangibles, as he carried a very good team almost entirely on his own (broken) back. Intangibles aren't everything, coughadammorrisoncough, but when looking at the total package, it has to come into play.


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## HB

Agreed with fjd on Sixers taking Cousins, but I want them to go with Turner and hopefully Thorn takes Cousins. Look if they are going to go with some pudgy power forward, best to take Cousins rather than overpay for Boozer.


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## HKF

Nimreitz said:


> Way too much "obviously Turner goes #2" talk last night. I started saying it in March and I stick by it, DeMarcus Cousins is the second best guy in the draft. Turner has a lot of good attributes, but he's missing SOMETHING, whereas DeMarcus Cousins did things that I don't remember ever seeing from a college player. At least not in a decade.


I've been saying Turner's going to be special for three years. I like Cousins a lot, but I would not pass on Turner if I was Philly. If I was Detroit, I would. Not Philly.


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## SheriffKilla

I would take Turner over Cousins because of intangibles if I was going for BPA but the difference isnt big enough when your team has good young talent at SG/SF and needs a big guy, go for Cousins or at least Favors but I think Cousins is a better prospect.
Also I can see a parallel between Coleman and Cousins they are different players, Coleman was more of an outside shooter and Cousins is more of a banger. The only thing with Cuz is he is a bit of a knucklehead but he doesnt have the issue of not wanting to play basketball if it wasnt for the money like DC did.
DC was more like a bigger MBeas.
I havent thought of a really good comparison for Cousins yet but I guess ZBo is the best so far, still different though, Randolph is more skilled but Cousins is just a beast down low, Cousins is like Randolph mixed with a slightly poor mans Dwight.

BTW, No one is worried about Favors following guys like Tyrus Thomas, Brandan Wright, Stromile Swift etc?
And talking about Brandan Wright, Ed Davis seems like a clone, but Wright was actually starting to come on before the injury, will Davis have injury problems, like he did at the end of the season??? I just get the feeling he will be a bust due to some unforseen circumstances...


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## jmk

fjkdsi said:


> BTW, No one is worried about Favors following guys like Tyrus Thomas, Brandan Wright, Stromile Swift etc?


Why would anyone talk about Favors following those guys? They're not comparable players...at all.


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## SheriffKilla

hmm, 6foot9 really athletic PFs that can block shots and run the court really well didnt really dominate college ball but showed plenty potential and thats just the basic description... The only thing Favors does seem more motivated but not always and GTech seems to have a pretty good track record of NBA players in the Hewitt era as opposed to LSU with Swift and T.Thomas, Big Baby turned out pretty well for a 2nd round pick though...
But honestly I cant think of a better comparison for Favors coming out of college than Thomas, Swift and Wright...


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## HKF

Derrick Favors isn't a rockhead. You can't compare him to numbskulls like Swift and Thomas. Also Favors showed a lot down the stretch of the season, considering all Georgia Tech did was turn the ball over I'd say he was impressive. You guys are looking for the wrong things. Look at the guy's skill level and then realize he didn't play with a cast that had any idea how to use him.


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## jmk

All of those guys you listed are undersized in some way. Thomas is really a 3 who got picked super-high because of one or two games and pure athleticism. Wright is a 200 lb PF. Swift is another lanky guy chosen mostly because of his athleticism. Like HKF said, at least 2 out of those 3 are dolts, on top of that. Favors isn't.

While Favors is most definitely athletic, he's a prototypical PF at 6-10 245. When his teammates actually made an effort to give him the ball in the post late in the season, he showed a very polished post-game for an 18 year old. He also showed that he has range on his shot, and we already knew that he was a good defender and very fast on the break.

Outside of any possible ramifications with Lebron, the Nets getting the #3 pick is going to be a blessing in disguise. Lopez & Favors fit perfectly together (though Turner would be nice, too). Once Derrick Favors is paired with an actual coach and decent teammates, he is going to explode.


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## Rather Unique

I agree with that assessment on Favors. LSU was on the break alot w/ Swift, TT. All of us know that means..easier points. Favors actually showed back to the basket game, especially the last 10 games or so. Sure it wasn't super polished but he showed some. More than you can say for TT and Swift. All this despite, like HKF pointed out, the guards being terrible, and when i say terrible i mean ATROCIOUSLY INEPT at setting up their BIGs with easy put-ins, and post entries. ALL of their guards were touch n chuck mentalities to the max. If not that then they would blindly drive the ball against w/e defense was in front of them. Most of the post looks went to Lawal if any at all, and the bulk of both his AND Favors points came off put-backs and busting their ass on the O boards. 

And with GT's track record of dropping the ball on good talents, (Thad Young, Morrow come to mind) i wouldn't knock Favors all that much. Favors did beast on Cousins in a HS head to head matchup, let's not forget that.


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## HB

jmk said:


> All of those guys you listed are undersized in some way. Thomas is really a 3 who got picked super-high because of one or two games and pure athleticism. Wright is a 200 lb PF. Swift is another lanky guy chosen mostly because of his athleticism. Like HKF said, at least 2 out of those 3 are dolts, on top of that. Favors isn't.
> 
> While Favors is most definitely athletic, he's a prototypical PF at 6-10 245. When his teammates actually made an effort to give him the ball in the post late in the season, he showed a very polished post-game for an 18 year old. He also showed that he has range on his shot, and we already knew that he was a good defender and very fast on the break.
> 
> Outside of any possible ramifications with Lebron, the Nets getting the #3 pick is going to be a blessing in disguise. Lopez & Favors fit perfectly together (though Turner would be nice, too). Once Derrick Favors is paired with an actual coach and decent teammates, he is going to explode.


And if the Nets pick Cousins, does it mean they blew the pick? I dont know about Favors 'exploding' either, guy's a project at this point.


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## cpawfan

HB said:


> And if the Nets pick Cousins, does it mean they blew the pick?


Yes


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## HB

Why? What makes Favors the better player?


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## jmk

HB said:


> And if the Nets pick Cousins, does it mean they blew the pick? I dont know about Favors 'exploding' either, guy's a project at this point.


Favors makes a lot more sense than Cousins does. Especially with all the young guys on this Nets team. You don't want to even risk the introduction of a negative presence.

And Derrick Favors is not a project.

We get it, though. You love Cousins and you don't like Favors. The simple fact is that Cousins does not fit on this Nets team.


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## Rather Unique

If i can jump in, i wouldn't say they blew the pick if they took Cousins, because Cousins is a good talent, and offensively probably only the Lakers and Celtics could match that size. But as we've gone through before HB, they'd get some kinda worked defensively. Like i said before, maybe their offensive prowess is enough to offset that, maybe not. It's just that Favors is a comparable talent (not better yet but comparable) who fits better as well.


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## SheriffKilla

Thomas was pretty impressive down the stretch too, Favors isnt as dumb as him but Thomas didnt show how clueless he was until he got to the NBA, I wouldnt say Favors has a polished post game or much of a jump shot, I would say his post game is better than Thomas was coming out but Thomas was a better jump shooter actually, we will see how he measures out but he seems basically the same height as Thomas but does have some weight on rookie Thomas for sure, Thomas was a better athlete no doubt.
I mean hindsight is 20/20 I was pretty high on Tyrus coming out as Im sure many of you guys were, now I like Favors and just because Thomas, or any other guy I or anyone compares him to, didnt succeed doesnt mean Favors cant... Some guys reach their potential, some dont but to say Favors is a sure thing to reach most of his potential is pretty absurd. He is about as good as a prospect as Thomas was, probably a little better and this is from a big Favors fan and someone that had Favors ranked number 1 at the start of the season. There is a fair chance he turns into just an average PF but he is worth the risk, just doesnt seem right that Cousins among others is talked about as a huge risk and people regard Favors as such a sure thing.


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## bball2223

Rather Unique said:


> Favors did beast on Cousins in a HS head to head matchup, let's not forget that.


Underrated post. 

If Favors had Wall feeding him the ball he would be a lock to go #2. This dude had no guards to get him the ball and Hewitt had zero idea of how to use him. I mean I think Cousins is going to be a beast too, but I question if some of you really watched GT this year and realized how bad of a situation Favors was in.


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## HB

jmk said:


> Favors makes a lot more sense than Cousins does. Especially with all the young guys on this Nets team. You don't want to even risk the introduction of a negative presence.
> 
> And Derrick Favors is not a project.
> 
> We get it, though. You love Cousins and you don't like Favors. The simple fact is that Cousins does not fit on this Nets team.


Lol I dont love Cousins, ask Jonathan Watters, but I see Cousins/Lopez together and I am thinking damn this guy's cant be stopped on the boards and in the paint.

I dont care much about Favors, he's young, he will probably develop into a solid player. Didnt show me much at Tech. No dislike there, if the Nets pick him, I hope he proves me wrong.


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## Rather Unique

i hated Ty Thomas, fjkdsi. :laugh: 

I agree with you though that Favors is not a sure thing. Cousins seems farther along in terms of skill development. At least offensively (which could be due to Favors ****ty guards). But i definitely see the potential in Favors and him being worth a top 3-5 pick.


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## jmk

Thomas is what, 6'8"? He doesn't have a position in the NBA. Favors is a true 4 and has like 30-40 lbs on TT. Thomas was drafted so high mostly because of his athleticism. That's not the case with Favors. I don't see the comparison.

TT was also surrounded by a hell of a lot more talent at LSU. The ineptitude of Paul Hewitt and the GT guards can not be overstated.

Watch Favors against Maryland this past year to see just what he is capable of.


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## HB

bball2223 said:


> Underrated post.
> 
> If Favors had Wall feeding him the ball he would be a lock to go #2. This dude had no guards to get him the ball and Hewitt had zero idea of how to use him. I mean I think Cousins is going to be a beast too, but I question if some of you really watched GT this year and realized how bad of a situation Favors was in.


Man this is a terrible post and you know it. Jmk made a similar one in the Nets forum. Funny how I end up defending Favors, but you all watched Kentucky games, saw how many guys they threw at Favors, saw how he out-muscled his opponents, saw how he used his length to get boards and all of a sudden a guy who's like 25-30 pounds lighter and a good 2 to 3 inches shorter would have replicated such. Stop with the exaggeration folks. Cousins wasn't a product of Wall's 'passing'. He got a lot of points off hustle plays. If I didn't watch those games, maybe I'd fall for your point.


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## jmk

Yeah, you didn't read either of our posts right, bwoy. It was more of a comment on GT than UK.


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## cpawfan

I don't see any comparison between Tyrus and Favors. Of course I had zero expectations for Tyrus and thought he was going to be a bust.

Cousins is an NBA Center, not an NBA PF. Yes he has enough of a handle to play outside of the post on offense and he is going to need that in the NBA. WVU demonstrated that strong guys can push and keep him off the block. Goons like Josh Boone are going to make things difficult in the half court for Cousins if he just tries to set up on the block until he fully commits to an NBA strength training regimen. 

On defense, the more you make Cousins move, the more he is going to get abused. He needs to play near the basket on D because he has decent timing and can block some shots.

All of the so called Twin Tower combinations that have worked have done so because either 1 guy was a tall PF like Gasol or an all time great like The Dream.


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## Rather Unique

HB is right. Wall contributed to Cousins success no doubt. But Cousin was a huge reason that UK finished in the top 5 in offensive board efficiency. And when they would give him a look in the post he would do it himself and just overpower his opposition.


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## HB

> HB is right. Wall contributed to Cousins success no doubt. But Cousin was a huge reason that UK finished in the top 5 in offensive board efficiency. And when they would give him a look in the post he would do it himself and just overpower his opposition.


Exactumundo!


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## SheriffKilla

Favors is a bit of a project, as much as anyone thats gonna get picked in the lottery this season, and about as much as TT was.
I do agree that GTechs guards didnt do the best job getting him the ball, but its not like he was Hakeem in the post either...
Which players in the past 5 to 10 years would you guys compare him to coming into the draft??
Which player does he most likely end up like??
Which player is his best case scenario??
I guess Tyrus Thomas is his worst case, but he has a significantly better chance to end up as his worst case than Turner, Wall and Wes Johnson and about as good a chance as Cousins only because Cousins has so much people that want him to fail...


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## bball2223

HB said:


> Man this is a terrible post and you know it. Jmk made a similar one in the Nets forum. Funny how I end up defending Favors, but you all watched Kentucky games, saw how many guys they threw at Favors, saw how he out-muscled his opponents, saw how he used his length to get boards and all of a sudden a guy who's like 25-30 pounds lighter and a good 2 to 3 inches shorter would have replicated such. Stop with the exaggeration folks. Cousins wasn't a product of Wall's 'passing'. He got a lot of points off hustle plays. If I didn't watch those games, maybe I'd fall for your point.


Now you're putting words in my mouth and showing your lack of reading comprehension. Cousins certainly benefitted from Wall's passing, but that was not the only reason he was successful. I have supported Cousins for a while now and even hoped the Pistons got a top 3 selection so they could take him, my post was not meant as a slight towards Cousins. My point was that if you put Favors on a team with a guard who could get him the ball (Wall) and a coach who knew how to use him (Calipari) he would have had a lot better season. You really think Cousins has the same season he had if he went to GT? Yeah didn't think so. I think both Favors and Cousins are going to be damn good professionals.


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## jmk

Rather Unique said:


> HB is right. Wall contributed to Cousins success no doubt. But Cousin was a huge reason that UK finished in the top 5 in offensive board efficiency. And when they would give him a look in the post he would do it himself and just overpower his opposition.


And if Favors was on UK instead of Cousins, he would be a huge reason they would have finished in the Top 5. That's not really the point anyone is trying to make.


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## Rather Unique

I


cpawfan said:


> Goons like Josh Boone are going to make things difficult in the half court for Cousins if he just tries to set up on the block until he fully commits to an NBA strength training regimen.


That's the one thing that worries me from Cousins besides the attitude which i believe could be overblown since he played hard on the court. He used his power and strength alot in the post, as he should. His footwork was clumsy at times, and we all know how sometimes power moves that worked in college just don't in the NBA. We will see in due time tho..



cpawfan said:


> On defense, the more you make Cousins move, the more he is going to get abused. He needs to play near the basket on D because he has decent timing and can block some shots.


I been trying to get this through HB's head. :laugh:


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## SheriffKilla

lol, looks like we all like both Favors and Cousins but just think that at least one of the 2 is getting more credit than they deserve


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## HB

I am saying putting Wall on Favors team doesnt change much, because Wall wasn't exactly feeding the post. He's not coming down the court, waiting for Cousins to get post position and dumping the ball into the post. Its a shame there are no stats to show how many points come off hustle and broken plays, but I bet you a good number of Cousins points came that way.

Y'all act like this guy has a repertoire of post moves to go to...I didnt see that. Cousins on the other hand has footwork that will leave a lot of people amazed. Very nimble guy.


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## Rather Unique

jmk said:


> And if Favors was on UK instead of Cousins, he would be a huge reason they would have finished in the Top 5. That's not really the point anyone is trying to make.


i think what HB was getting at was the fact that Cousins points weren't all from being spoon fed by Wall. Which bball kind of insinuated.


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## HB

Rather Unique said:


> i think what HB was getting at was the fact that Cousins points weren't all from being spoon fed by Wall. Which bball kind of insinuated.


This guy knows the English language


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## Rather Unique

fjkdsi said:


> lol, looks like we all like both Favors and Cousins but just think that at least one of the 2 is getting more credit than they deserve


BINGO BANGO 

even though it looks like HB hates Favors, and JMK hates Cousins. :laugh:


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## SheriffKilla

so jmk, Rather Unique, cpaw, HKF, HB... anybody??
What are your comparisons for Favors???
If Thomas is nothing like him, who is?
Amare? Dwight? Okafor? Karl Malone? Bosh?(not actual comparison, just throwing names out there, wanna see what you guys think..)


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## bball2223

Rather Unique said:


> i think what HB was getting at was the fact that Cousins points weren't all from being spoon fed by Wall. *Which bball kind of insinuated*.


I did? 

I was pointing out that Favors would have had a much better season on a team with guards who can get him the ball (Wall) and a coach who knew how to use him. If I worded it wrong and misled you I apologize, but that wasn't my point.


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## HB

I dont have a comparison...maybe Al Horford...I guess. He's not terrible, he can jump, he has the size, looks like an NBA forward, but he didnt look 'dominant' to me.


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## Rather Unique

This seems like a good time to drop this... i been hearing alot of people say Favors resembles a young McDyess. What do y'all think about that? Cause i can remember watching McDyess a little bit and i don't really see it.


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## HKF

Cousins is an NBA center. Minnesota is screwed because the two power forwards they have are terrible defenders and slow as molasses. I just sure hope Houston does not somehow trade into the 4th spot. The NBA needs future all-stars on bad teams, not teams a step away from contending.


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## Rather Unique

bball2223 said:


> I did?
> 
> I was pointing out that Favors would have had a much better season on a team with guards who can get him the ball (Wall) and a coach who knew how to use him. If I worded it wrong and misled you I apologize, but that wasn't my point.


just a miscommunication man, no biggie, i knew what u meant. :cheers:


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## jmk

fjkdsi said:


> so jmk, Rather Unique, cpaw, HKF, HB... anybody??
> What are your comparisons for Favors???
> If Thomas is nothing like him, who is?
> Amare? Dwight? Okafor? Karl Malone? Bosh?(not actual comparison, just throwing names out there, wanna see what you guys think..)


I can dig the McDyess comparison. Maybe a bit of a cross between Amare and Bosh?


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## SheriffKilla

Horford seems pretty solid to me, not sure about McDyess, I think he can become as good as McDyess was but different player like Rather Unique said. Of course every player is different but you know if you get close its good enough.


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## jmk

Rather Unique said:


> BINGO BANGO
> 
> even though it looks like HB hates Favors, and JMK hates Cousins. :laugh:


If NJ didn't have Brook Lopez, I would say that Cousins has an argument against Favors for #3, but as the roster stands right now, Favors makes way more sense than Cousins.


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## bball2223

Rather Unique said:


> just a miscommunication man, no biggie, i knew what u meant. :cheers:


for sure, I also wanted to clarify so somebody who views this later would get what I was saying, just in case. 

:cheers:


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## HKF

Favors will be worlds better than Horford on the offensive end. Defensively not sure, but offensively Favors is not a garbage man. I'm not going to say Karl Malone or anything like that, but he's a big rugged dude. I don't have a comparison for him. He's a solid 6'10 dude with athleticism, touch and strength. He can score with either hand and he can defend. He also is good in the low box and at the elbow and he's seems to do fine as the man or in support. There's just a lot to like about Favors.

I love Cousins, but with Brook Lopez, you cannot draft Demarcus, when the difference in talent between Favors and him is negligible.


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## cpawfan

fjkdsi said:


> Which players in the past 5 to 10 years would you guys compare him to coming into the draft??
> Which player does he most likely end up like??
> Which player is his best case scenario??


Favors is closer to Kenyon than to Stro or Tyrus as he is a far better defender than either of the LSU guys. Body-wise he has that Amare / Dwight build where he could get really huge.


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## Rather Unique

I see an Amare type but less of a high flyer and a bit more post play. He doesn't seem as bouncy/jumpy as McDyess was.


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## SheriffKilla

To me it seems that Favors has more defensive potential than McDyess but Im not sure he will become that sort of face up threat, McDyess can really hit turn around Js out to 18 feet, he averaged 21/12 in his best season with the Nuggs, I think Favors is more 19/12 at his best but more D, less shooting, more dunking on people even though McDyess was pretty athletic in his own right.


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## jmk

Yeah, Amare is the most comparable current NBA player, I think. Like you said, not as much of a high-flyer as him, but still a great athlete for his size. And like cpaw said, put Favors into an NBA weight room and he is going to be a real specimen. Favors can probably carry close to 270 on his frame if he wanted to.


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## jmk

fjkdsi said:


> To me it seems that Favors has more defensive potential than McDyess but Im not sure he will become that sort of face up threat, McDyess can really hit turn around Js out to 18 feet, he averaged 21/12 in his best season with the Nuggs, I think Favors is more 19/12 at his best but more D, less shooting, more dunking on people even though McDyess was pretty athletic in his own right.


I definitely see Favors as more of an offensive threat than you do. After a couple years in the league, I see him putting up 20+ ppg for a lot of years.

I basically see Favors following the development of Stoudemire, but a better rebounder & defender and without the super-ridiculous athleticism (and without the injuries, as well, hopefully).


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## HB

Welp the Nets for sure arent making the playoffs next year, unless of course they sign Boozer and let Favors develop the next few years.


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## HKF

HB said:


> Welp the Nets for sure arent making the playoffs next year, unless of course they sign Boozer and let Favors develop the next few years.


Why would they sign Boozer? Also, if the Nets get Favors, have some internal improvement with their wings, and company, sign a few vets to man the bench, why can't they make a run at the 8th seed? Aren't you the one who said that Lopez is an all-star? Well All-star centers should be able to get their teams in contention for the playoffs _in the East_.


----------



## cpawfan

HB said:


> Welp the Nets for sure arent making the playoffs next year, unless of course they sign Boozer and let Favors develop the next few years.


They aren't making the playoffs with Devin Harris at PG. PF is immaterial

As far as Favors, draft him and trade cap space of Troy Murphy and a future pick. That gives the Nets a 1 year PF / expiring contract and the Pacers get out of the Tax.


----------



## HB

HKF said:


> Why would they sign Boozer? Also, if the Nets get Favors, have some internal improvement with their wings, and company, sign a few vets to man the bench, why can't they make a run at the 8th seed? Aren't you the one who said that Lopez is an all-star? Well All-star centers should be able to get their teams in contention for the playoffs _in the East_.


Lol well yeah but the 'Nets' arent the only team that will improve in the East. Still they have a lot going for them, the 'all star' center's development, a 'healthy' Devin, a much developed stud in Twilliams, the two draft picks and FA. So yeah maybe they will be in the playoffs.


----------



## cpawfan

HKF said:


> Why would they sign Boozer? Also, if the Nets get Favors, have some internal improvement with their wings, and company, sign a few vets to man the bench, why can't they make a run at the 8th seed? Aren't you the one who said that Lopez is an all-star? Well All-star centers should be able to get their teams in contention for the playoffs _in the East_.


Most All Star Centers aren't handicapped by playing with such a PG with such poor vision and distribution skills


----------



## HKF

I was with you cpaw, until you said Troy Murphy. Ugh, terrible player.


----------



## jmk

The future is very bright. A lot depends on if Courtney Lee decides if he wants to become a big-time player or not. He has the skills to become a quality scorer at the 2, but I'm just not sure he really wants it that bad. This is going to be a huge offseason for him.

Regardless, if T-Will continues his constant improvement, and the Nets draft Favors, that is one hell of a front line in the future.


----------



## HB

cpawfan said:


> Most All Star Centers aren't handicapped by playing with such a PG with such poor vision and distribution skills


Williams will do the job


----------



## cpawfan

HB said:


> Lol well yeah but the 'Nets' arent the only team that will improve in the East. Still they have a lot going for them, the 'all star' center's development, a 'healthy' Devin, a much developed stud in Twilliams, the two draft picks and FA. So yeah maybe they will be in the playoffs.


Don't forget Rod Thorn screwing up the roster


----------



## HB

Moving past the Nets, really curious what GSW, DET and IND will do. These guys seem to be stuck in neutral and the draft didn't do them any favors.


----------



## cpawfan

HKF said:


> I was with you cpaw, until you said Troy Murphy. Ugh, terrible player.


He can shoot, he can rebound and he is an expiring contract. The cap space needs to be rolled over to next summer so that Thorn doesn't waste it.

Murphy costs less than AK-47


----------



## cpawfan

jmk said:


> The future is very bright.


Not with Thorn getting a 2 year deal


----------



## jmk

If we can't have Lebron in 2010, at least give us Carmelo in 2011.


----------



## cpawfan

HB said:


> Moving past the Nets, really curious what GSW, DET and IND will do. These guys seem to be stuck in neutral and the draft didn't do them any favors.


The stereotypes say GS takes Willie Warren and Indy takes Aldrich :devil2:

Indy should move the pick for a PG unless Monroe is there as he would pair well with Hibbert and Granger.

I'd like to see Udoh on the Warriors although watch them take Aminu

Detroit needs a defensive rock at Center so their best bet is Aldrich


----------



## HB

Warriors should package the pick with Ellis and get something of value, they dont need to pick a player in this draft, unless one of the top 4 guys falls to them.

The Jazz are in fantastic position to pick a legit big, maybe Udoh, Davis or Monroe will be there when they pick.

Dont know what the Pacers can do though. Not many good points in this draft, maybe they gamble on Bledsoe.


----------



## jmk

The Indiana Pacers are in purgatory.


----------



## jericho

Rather Unique said:


> This seems like a good time to drop this... i been hearing alot of people say Favors resembles a young McDyess. What do y'all think about that? Cause i can remember watching McDyess a little bit and i don't really see it.


I honestly haven't seen as much of Favors as I did of McDyess' college play. This could be closer than the Horford comparison on the basis of superior offensive potential, but I think McDyess was much "bouncier" as another poster said. Not that he was a Vince-like high-flier, but he was incredibly aggressive and athletic in the paint - maybe the quickest second jump I've ever seen for someone of his length.


----------



## E.H. Munro

jericho said:


> I honestly haven't seen as much of Favors as I did of McDyess' college play. This could be closer than the Horford comparison on the basis of superior offensive potential, but I think McDyess was much "bouncier" as another poster said. Not that he was a Vince-like high-flier, but he was incredibly aggressive and athletic in the paint - maybe the quickest second jump I've ever seen for someone of his length.


I think that people's lasting memories of Dice are post-injury. Way back in the day he really got off the ground. He was aces up at swooping in for putbacks.


----------



## HKF

McDyess was basically Amare and Shawn Kemp all over again. Dunked everything, but we have to remember this is now his 15th year in the NBA. He has had a great career.


----------



## MemphisX

McDyess is the reason Stro Swift went #2. just like Ty Thomas went high due to Matrix success at PF. 

Teams get in trouble trying to copy cat. 

Like if I'm Philly, I'm making Minny eat Brand so they can try to rebirth Roy in Turner. Turner ain't Roy. He will be good but he can't be your dog in the NBA. 

I think media and boards are sleeping on Aminu also.


----------



## rebelsun

Favors seems to be cut from that same Amare, Kenyon, McDyess, Kemp etc cloth, but I'm not sure he has the same nastiness those guys had. They were/are angry; I'm not sure Derrick is. Regardless, he should be a 15/9 guy and be very solid on both ends. These 6'10, 240lb athletic PFs will always have solid value and have minimal bust rates. I'm just not sure he's ever a 20/10 guy. I think he's the right fit next to Lopez.

For all the talk about LeBron's choices being down to CLE, MIA, and CHI, Jersey isn't really a bad situation at all. A lineup of Harris/Lee or Williams/LeBron/Favors/Lopez is very, very solid 1-5. They're a very young roster with upside and cap room; very interesting long-term situation.


----------



## Rather Unique

MemphisX said:


> McDyess is the reason Stro Swift went #2. just like Ty Thomas went high due to Matrix success at PF.
> 
> Teams get in trouble trying to copy cat.
> 
> Like if I'm Philly, I'm making Minny eat Brand so they can try to rebirth Roy in Turner. Turner ain't Roy. He will be good but he can't be your dog in the NBA.
> 
> *I think media and boards are sleeping on Aminu also.*


how high are you on Aminu, MemphisX? I saw quite a bit of the guy, some good, some bad. I will admit he improved from last year, but i'm just not sold on the guy.. oh and DE has him at 5 that's pretty damn high.


----------



## jmk

Aminu has a whole lot of skills, but he's one of those guys who would rather stand behind the 3 point line rather than take advantage of all of those skills.


----------



## Rather Unique

See, Aminu to me seems like a Tyrus Thomas, Stro Swift type. (not talking bout them being busts, but like the type of player)


----------



## BlakeJesus

jmk said:


> The Indiana Pacers are in purgatory.


Pacers should pick Willie Warren, would be a fantastic fit IMO.


----------



## JerryWest

RebelSun said:


> Favors seems to be cut from that same Amare, Kenyon, McDyess, Kemp etc cloth, but I'm not sure he has the same nastiness those guys had. They were/are angry; I'm not sure Derrick is. Regardless, he should be a 15/9 guy and be very solid on both ends. These 6'10, 240lb athletic PFs will always have solid value and have minimal bust rates. I'm just not sure he's ever a 20/10 guy. I think he's the right fit next to Lopez.
> 
> For all the talk about LeBron's choices being down to CLE, MIA, and CHI, Jersey isn't really a bad situation at all. A lineup of Harris/Lee or Williams/LeBron/Favors/Lopez is very, very solid 1-5. They're a very young roster with upside and cap room; very interesting long-term situation.


Favors is similar to the guys you mentioned offensively but defensively he is better than all of them IMO. He might be the second best prospect of this draft although Turner is more of a sure - shot.


----------



## HB

The more am watching this Lakers game, the more I am thinking to myself what the heck are people talking about. Gasol and Bynum are both centers. Gasol isnt running out to the perimeter to guard anyone, its just so hard to get anything in the paint when both are playing. B.Lopez reminds me a lot of Gasol.


----------



## HB

KennethTo said:


> Favors is similar to the guys you mentioned offensively but defensively he is better than all of them IMO. He might be the second best prospect of this draft although Turner is more of a sure - shot.


Umm Kenyon Martin is one of the best defenders in the game. If 15/9 is indeed his ceiling, how can he be the second best prospect in this draft? Ed Davis should be putting up 15/10 when all is said and done.


----------



## Rather Unique

I don't know if he's a better defender than Kenyon Martin. I mean K-mart does work inside and i've seen him check guards before.


----------



## Rather Unique

HB said:


> The more am watching this Lakers game, the more I am thinking to myself what the heck are people talking about. Gasol and Bynum are both centers. Gasol isnt running out to the perimeter to guard anyone, its just so hard to get anything in the paint when both are playing. B.Lopez reminds me a lot of Gasol.


That would be because the Suns have one big on the floor who doesn't do ANYTHING offensively at all times...


----------



## Rather Unique

HB said:


> Umm Kenyon Martin is one of the best defenders in the game. If 15/9 is indeed his ceiling, how can he be the second best prospect in this draft? Ed Davis should be putting up 15/10 when all is said and done.


I don't think 15/9 is his ceiling. Maybe more or less of an actual prediction, but potentially his ceiling should be higher than that.


----------



## cpawfan

KennethTo said:


> Favors is similar to the guys you mentioned offensively but defensively he is better than all of them IMO. He might be the second best prospect of this draft although Turner is more of a sure - shot.


It will take Favors quite a bit of work to even be as good of defender as Kenyon Martin


----------



## rocketeer

RebelSun said:


> For all the talk about LeBron's choices being down to CLE, MIA, and CHI, Jersey isn't really a bad situation at all. A lineup of Harris/Lee or Williams/LeBron/Favors/Lopez is very, very solid 1-5. They're a very young roster with upside and cap room; very interesting long-term situation.


i don't think going to a really young team full of players who can't shoot would be a situation lebron would be very interested in.


----------



## jmk

Favors definitely isn't as good of a defender as K-Mart. K-Mart pre-injury was year in and year out one of the very best defenders in the league who would guard all 5 positions throughout the season.


----------



## SheriffKilla

I was gonna type this earlier but I really had to go, anyway:
I changed my mind a little you guys are probably right Im underestimating Favors ruggidness and frame and probably concentrating too much on his athletics...
However I stand behind Favors possibilly being underwhelming, especially as a rookie he seems like a guy that will come in and look lost out there only getting buckets,boards,blocks off natural talent...The team that drafts wont be giving him a lot of minutes as a rookie unless they arent trying to win games but to develop their talent(in his draft range thats certainly likely)

As for the Warriors I can seem them going for Davis, Aminu or even Motiejunas and the Pacers probably end up with Patterson, Henry, Udoh or Donatas. Pistons, Im not sure, maybe they trade the pick, maybe they get Monroe???
I just know that Aldrich is going to the Jazz


----------



## SheriffKilla

jmk said:


> Aminu has a whole lot of skills, but he's one of those guys who would rather stand behind the 3 point line rather than take advantage of all of those skills.


I dont know about that, Aminus weakness is his outside game, he is sort of a tweener. He has great tools for a SF but because he cant shoot and operates mostly around the basket is what worries me about him. Will he be able to rebound and work inside in the NBA like he did in college, probably not. His ball handling is pretty good but you cant take advantage of it with no shot.


----------



## Rather Unique

In my eyes, he's an athlete-slasher type since he doesn't post and isn't a deep threat. I don't think his ball handling is as good as some say it is..I wouldn't call it good. He screams G-State type player to me.


----------



## SheriffKilla

Rather Unique said:


> In my eyes, he's an athlete-slasher type since he doesn't post and isn't a deep threat. I don't think his ball handling is as good as some say it is..I wouldn't call it good. He screams G-State type player to me.


His perimeter game is lacking but I dont think ball handling is the problem its more shooting and just overall he seems like he has played around the basket and on the break his whole life and isnt used to playing outside.
I say he goes to the Clippers.


----------



## jmk

fjkdsi said:


> I dont know about that, Aminus weakness is his outside game, he is sort of a tweener. He has great tools for a SF but because he cant shoot and operates mostly around the basket is what worries me about him. Will he be able to rebound and work inside in the NBA like he did in college, probably not. His ball handling is pretty good but you cant take advantage of it with no shot.


He spent most of the season trying to show off to the NBA his skills as a SF, except he doesn't really have those. He spent way too much time on the perimeter where he shot 27% from 3. He also had quite the recurring disappearing act in certain games throughout the season. I'm not a big fan.


----------



## HKF

He also is similar to James Johnson in that he kind of wants to be a playmaker, when he should be a finisher.


----------



## HB

If Aminu 'gets' it, could be a Lamar Odom type player.


----------



## rebelsun

HB said:


> If Aminu 'gets' it, could be a Lamar Odom type player.


I'm not sure his soph 0.41 A/TO (on only 1.3apg) ratio puts his distribution skills on the same level as Odom. I don't think their ball skills are that close for comparison.

I've said it before, I think Aminu is the biggest fool's gold in the draft. This dude is the dreaded tweener forward in the worst sense. He isn't a great passer or shooter and doesn't have the bulk to do anything down low. His upside is as a SF, but he hasn't displayed any of the ball skills that would indicate his thriving there. That said, he has a fantastic frame, with matching athleticism, but looking at just the college numbers, the guy isn't nearly as polished as Loul or Shareef were coming out. Aminu has an incoherent game that he needs to straighten out, otherwise he's only Travis Outlaw (if he works on his jumper).


----------



## HB

More in terms of rebounding and playing multiple positions, very few players that size have Odom's vision


----------



## bball2223

Aminu would be a nice piece for a team that loves to get out and run. He could get out on the break and take full advantage of his athletic ability, since he is not very skilled in a half-court setting on offense. I don't see the star potential in him, but he could be a decent player if he works on his jumper, plays defense and rebounds.


----------



## jmk

The difference is that Odom has the skills to play multiple positions, and that's why he does. Aminu is going to have to work hard just to figure out one position.


----------



## cpawfan

Aminu is Julian Wright lite


----------



## rebelsun

HB said:


> More in terms of rebounding and playing multiple positions, very few players that size have Odom's vision


I agree with Aminu being able to play, and defend, both forward positions in some moderate capacity. That length and athleticism will guarantee rebounds and defense. Aminu is probably the the most perfect example of the problematic tweener forward I've seen since I've been interested in the draft, since about 2000. His skillset at that size drives you nuts, but the guy has such fantastic length and athleticism, you have to pay attention. 

The thing with Odom is that his game is so unique at that size. I think a legit Odom comparison is Earl Clark - 6'10, can rebound, can play at least 3 positions, and has legitimate vision and distribution ability.


----------



## rebelsun

cpawfan said:


> Aminu is Julian Wright lite


Julian Wright is a good comparison.


----------



## HKF

cpawfan said:


> Aminu is Julian Wright lite


Took my response. He just might be Julian Wright. Passes the eye test until he actually has to do something on the basketball court.


----------



## Rather Unique

jmk said:


> He spent most of the season trying to show off to the NBA his skills as a SF, except he doesn't really have those. He spent way too much time on the perimeter where he shot 27% from 3. *He also had quite the recurring disappearing act in certain games throughout the season.* I'm not a big fan.


He did this to me when he played down here in Miami. I was with a friend at the game and before tip off, i pointed Aminu out and was like 'see him over there, he's probably a lottery pick'. Needless to say, i think he scored 6 pts, was nowhere to be found for most of the game and my friend left the game laughing at me mentioning him being a possible lottery pick. SMH.


----------



## rebelsun

HKF said:


> Took my response. He just might be Julian Wright. *Passes the eye test until he actually has to do something on the basketball court.*


This is the thing. You see the 6'8, 220lb, huge wingspan, great athleticism, 15/10 sophomore stats and say 'wow, no-brainer in the league.' Then you look at closer at the numbers and see the guy has little to indicate that he'll be an overall stud NBA SF. 

If you just want athleticism, rebounding, and defense in a SF (which is essentially all Aminu has displayed at this point), you can trade down several spots to take Damion James or even further for Stanley Robinson.


----------



## jmk

If Damion James winds up on a team like San Antonio that will know how to utilize his skills, he is going to have a nice, long, solid career.


----------



## rebelsun

jmk said:


> If Damion James winds up on a team like San Antonio that will know how to utilize his skills, he is going to have a nice, long, solid career.


That's one advantage he has on Aminu, in that he knows his role - defend, rebound, get hustle baskets, and hit the occasional outside shot. I get the feeling that Aminu thinks he's better than he is; I think he's been coasting by on his natural ability alone. He should take a long look at how Outlaw transformed himself, over many years, from just a skill-devoid, freak athlete out of HS to a very effective, 6th man combo F. Aminu has to at least develop his jump shot. 

James might be the closest thing to Marion I've seen since he got to the league, although James already has more strength than Shawn ever had. Wes Johnson has Marion's frame and sneaky athleticism, but is a much better shooter and isn't quite the elite rebounder Shawn always has been. I would rather have James over Aminu at this point.


----------



## E.H. Munro

HKF said:


> Took my response. He just might be Julian Wright. Passes the eye test until he actually has to do something on the basketball court.


Honestly he's one of the guys that would scare the bejesus out of me if I were drafting in the 5-15 range. You're stuck with a bunch of guys that probably aren't any better than Willie Warren, Stanley Robinson or Damion James that are going to go far lower. If I were drafting five I'd either draft Aldrich or trade out of the lottery with someone that wants to pick there. This year I think the lottery's a real losing proposition outside the top four.


----------



## HKF

I like James personally, I just happen to think he's not very good. I think he's going to get exposed on the pro level. He has major limitations in his game. Never once did he put his "stamp" on a game. Maybe it's because I watched Quincy Acy and Ekpe Udoh dominate him for 3 games, but still. Color me unimpressed.


----------



## E.H. Munro

HKF said:


> I like James personally, I just happen to think he's not very good. I think he's going to get exposed on the pro level. He has major limitations in his game. Never once did he put his "stamp" on a game. Maybe it's because I watched Quincy Acy and Ekpe Udoh dominate him for 3 games, but still. Color me unimpressed.


Yeah, I don't love James or Robinson so much as I think they'll be every bit as good as Aminu, but much less expensive. :bsmile:


----------



## Nimreitz

HKF said:


> I like James personally, I just happen to think he's not very good. I think he's going to get exposed on the pro level. He has major limitations in his game. Never once did he put his "stamp" on a game. Maybe it's because I watched Quincy Acy and Ekpe Udoh dominate him for 3 games, but still. Color me unimpressed.


Totally agree. I've seen flashes in a lot of the other guys we're talking about, but I have NEVER liked James at all as a player. It made me legitimately mad when he'd get All American or Draft buzz.


----------



## Rather Unique

I definitely don't see the quality "defender" everyone keeps talking about when it comes to James. Same goes to a certain extent for Stanley Robinson, he had the highlight blocks but i never really saw elite lockdown type of defender out of him. 

IMO Avery Bradley is the best defender in this draft who's not a BIG.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Rather Unique said:


> I definitely don't see the quality "defender" everyone keeps talking about when it comes to James. Same goes to a certain extent for Stanley Robinson, he had the highlight blocks but i never really saw elite lockdown type of defender out of him.
> 
> IMO Avery Bradley is the best defender in this draft who's not a BIG.


I see Robinson as an Eric Williams type, a hustle type player that will do a lot of little things and be a solid swing forward off the bench.


----------



## rebelsun

HKF said:


> I like James personally, I just happen to think he's not very good. I think he's going to get exposed on the pro level. He has major limitations in his game. Never once did he put his "stamp" on a game. Maybe it's because I watched Quincy Acy and Ekpe Udoh dominate him for 3 games, but still. Color me unimpressed.


I'm not sure anyone's mistaking him for a #1 or #2 option; James is hustle/rebounder/defender/etc guy, but he can be an elite, or at least very good, one. 

As far as Baylor, they did beat Texas all three times, but Damion alone fared pretty well against all of those long athletes - 19ppg (on 46% shooting), 13rpg, 2spg, and 1bpg.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=31581


----------



## rocketeer

Rather Unique said:


> IMO Avery Bradley is the best defender in this draft who's not a BIG.


i'm loving how the 3rd best perimeter defender on his college team is being considered the best perimeter defender in the draft.


----------



## Rather Unique

rocketeer said:


> i'm loving how the 3rd best perimeter defender on his college team is being considered the best perimeter defender in the draft.


Come on with that rocketeer, sure Dogus was their best, but that was ALL he did (he's not getting drafted), and who's next Mason?! Cause i know it's not Jai Lucas. I watched plenty of Texas this year, and he was a pretty damn disruptive. I'm sure you can put Wall over him, there's a few in the discussion as well..I think my statement has a case.


----------



## rocketeer

Rather Unique said:


> Come on with that rocketeer, sure Dogus was their best, but that was ALL he did (he's not getting drafted), and who's next Mason?! Cause i know it's not Jai Lucas. I watched plenty of Texas this year, and he was a pretty damn disruptive. I'm sure you can put Wall over him, there's a few in the discussion as well..I think my statement has a case.


obviously balbay and mason aren't better players than bradley, but they are(or at least were last season) better defenders than bradley. and had varez ward not gotten hurt early on, he could have been in the discussion as well.

it's just weird to me that a guy who wasn't the best perimeter defender on his team is widely talked about as the hands down best perimeter defender in the draft.


----------



## Rather Unique

I get you, i don't really think Mason was as good this year as in previous years. I thought Bradley was the 2nd best, Ward is in that discussion had he not gone down. I think it's just the fact that Balbay was really really good on that side of the ball. That shouldn't knock Bradley down when comparing him to all the other draft entries tho.


----------



## HB

The guys at DE are raving about Wall...seems like he handled himself nicely at the combine


----------



## Vuchato

I'm calling it right now, more than a third of the lottery picks are gonna be from Kentucky.


----------



## rebelsun

HB said:


> The guys at DE are raving about Wall...seems like he handled himself nicely at the combine


I think Wall could've answered every question with two middle fingers and it wouldn't budge him from going #1, lol.


----------



## SheriffKilla

^lol...

On Aminu what seperates him a bit from Robinson and James is he is about 2/3 years younger which is significant at that age. He is actually about a month younger than Wall and Cousins.


----------



## HKF

He's a month older than Wall and Cousins, not younger.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Agreed with fjd on Sixers taking Cousins, but I want them to go with Turner and hopefully Thorn takes Cousins. Look if they are going to go with some pudgy power forward, best to take Cousins rather than overpay for Boozer.


Still going with the pudgy PF bit, eh? You have got to be the most stubborn person I've ever run across in my entire life. Not a good thing when the vast majority of the stuff you post is dead wrong...


----------



## Jonathan Watters

jmk said:


> Thomas is what, 6'8"? He doesn't have a position in the NBA. Favors is a true 4 and has like 30-40 lbs on TT. Thomas was drafted so high mostly because of his athleticism. That's not the case with Favors. I don't see the comparison.


Tyrus Thomas doesn't have a position? Hah. 

He's got a 7'3 wingspan and is probably the most athletic big man in the entire league. 

He might be a bad basketball player, but he's certainly not a tweener.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

cpawfan said:


> Cousins is an NBA Center, not an NBA PF. Yes he has enough of a handle to play outside of the post on offense and he is going to need that in the NBA. WVU demonstrated that strong guys can push and keep him off the block. *Goons like Josh Boone are going to make things difficult in the half court for Cousins if he just tries to set up on the block until he fully commits to an NBA strength training regimen. *
> On defense, the more you make Cousins move, the more he is going to get abused. He needs to play near the basket on D because he has decent timing and can block some shots.


This is an absolutely absurd thing to say. Cousins has his flaws, but strength isn't one of them. 

Cousins physically dominated NCAA big men at a level that probably hasn't been seen since Shaquille O'Neal, and he is going to manhandle the vast majority of NBA bigs from the moment he sets foot on the court. Josh Boone? Seriously?

West Virginia proved absolutely nothing, other than a defense can have success triple teaming a big guy who has no shooters to pass the ball to. 

Next issue, Chris Paul better tighten up that handle!


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Cousins on the other hand has footwork that will leave a lot of people amazed. Very nimble guy.


Finally, you say something about Cousins that makes a bit of sense.


----------



## Rather Unique

is that an HB compliment JW? :wow:


----------



## Jonathan Watters

RebelSun said:


> James might be the closest thing to Marion I've seen since he got to the league, although James already has more strength than Shawn ever had. Wes Johnson has Marion's frame and sneaky athleticism, but is a much better shooter and isn't quite the elite rebounder Shawn always has been. I would rather have James over Aminu at this point.


Damion James to Shawn Marion? You realize that Marion could make it to the rim and back up again before James got there the first time, right?


----------



## Jonathan Watters

fjkdsi said:


> To me it seems that Favors has more defensive potential than McDyess but Im not sure he will become that sort of face up threat, McDyess can really hit turn around Js out to 18 feet, he averaged 21/12 in his best season with the Nuggs, I think Favors is more 19/12 at his best but more D, less shooting, more dunking on people even though McDyess was pretty athletic in his own right.


A pre-knee injury McDyess didn't have Favors' frame but was definitely more athletic. A Stoudemire-level freak of nature.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Rather Unique said:


> is that an HB compliment JW? :wow:


It is an important point, as most don't understand how important the "nimble" factor is for a big man. Cousins might not look particularly athletic, but show me another big guy that weighs 280 pounds when in shape that can come close to matching Cousins' agility. Laugh all you want, but this is what made Shaq so dominant and in Center terms, Cousins is a ballerina out there.


----------



## Rather Unique

it is, you're right on that. I wouldn't go ballerina with it :laugh: since he was a little out of control a few times, but he definitely does have good footwork for a guy that big. I like the Shaq comparison.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Nimreitz said:


> Totally agree. I've seen flashes in a lot of the other guys we're talking about, but I have NEVER liked James at all as a player. It made me legitimately mad when he'd get All American or Draft buzz.


Watching James in college, I always came to the same conclusion: 

This guy could be an excellent hustle/energy player in the NBA, if those were the types of things he focused on. At Texas, he focused on being a volume scorer/shooter. 

Whether he can figure out the best role for his skillset will determine his future in the NBA. If he continues to try and be LeBron Jr, he will fail.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Rather Unique said:


> it is, you're right on that. I wouldn't go ballerina with it :laugh: since he was a little out of control a few times, but he definitely does have good footwork for a guy that big. I like the Shaq comparison.


He's not as big as Shaq, he's not as athletic as Shaq. But he does have unique agility for a player of his size. Think of Eddy Curry with a motor, or even a bulkier Chris Webber.


----------



## Rather Unique

Yeah Shaq was a freak in that regard. Curry who can rebound sounds best. I'm not sold on his "motor" yet, he is a hard worker on the court but he lost focus occasionally when he'd get burned by the refs. He's no Cwebb when it comes to passing tho.


----------



## Diable

If I was Sacremento I sure wouldn't be thrilled about the prospect of taking Wesley Johnson, Aminu or Monroe. I'd trade down without asking for too much and figure I'd still get someone who was about as good as those guys. I wonder if the Wolves are hoping that Philly or NJ takes Cousins and leaves them Favors. He's really a better fit for their needs unless they want to move Jefferson, which wouldn't be a bad idea if you made the right deal.


----------



## MemphisX

I think Minnesota overpays to move up two spots for Turner. I think Cousins ends up in Philly. 

I also think Wesley Johnson's fall begins tomorrow with the measurements. Great college player. Great athlete. Beware of the Orangemen though. That system really over inflates the value of athletic wings with limitations. Or maybe I am just not a fan.


----------



## MemphisX

Rather Unique said:


> I definitely don't see the quality "defender" everyone keeps talking about when it comes to James. Same goes to a certain extent for Stanley Robinson, he had the highlight blocks but i never really saw elite lockdown type of defender out of him.
> 
> IMO Avery Bradley is the best defender in this draft who's not a BIG.


I really never got it with James. He does not have the lateral quicks to guards SFs, he is not particularly long, not a great shooter, limited ball skills...what does he do in the league? What is his role?

Stanley Robinson is barely a basketball player. Plus he is athletic but no lateral quickness.

I also think Greg Monroe is a center. He is less athletic than Cousins.


----------



## cpawfan

Jonathan Watters said:


> This is an absolutely absurd thing to say. Cousins has his flaws, but strength isn't one of them.
> 
> Cousins physically dominated NCAA big men at a level that probably hasn't been seen since Shaquille O'Neal, and he is going to manhandle the vast majority of NBA bigs from the moment he sets foot on the court. Josh Boone? Seriously?
> 
> West Virginia proved absolutely nothing, other than a defense can have success triple teaming a big guy who has no shooters to pass the ball to.
> 
> Next issue, Chris Paul better tighten up that handle!


Cousins will out nimble NBA goons, but he isn't going to physically dominate them, let alone the vast majority of NBA bigs. He will get pushed off his spots by quite a few people in the NBA just like WVU did. 

Cousins has agility and natural strength, but just like with NFL linemen, experience, guile and strength developed through dedication in the weight room is going to give Cousin trouble. 

The quicker you get Cousins the ball, the more efficient he is going to be. If he has to spend 10 seconds battling for post position with a goon, he will be out of his sweet spot.


----------



## cpawfan

Jonathan Watters said:


> Tyrus Thomas doesn't have a position? Hah.
> 
> He's got a 7'3 wingspan and is probably the most athletic big man in the entire league.
> 
> He might be a bad basketball player, but he's certainly not a tweener.


Tyrus spent a large chunk of his first 3 seasons trying to get the Bulls to let him play SF.


----------



## rocketeer

Jonathan Watters said:


> Watching James in college, I always came to the same conclusion:
> 
> This guy could be an excellent hustle/energy player in the NBA, if those were the types of things he focused on. At Texas, he focused on being a volume scorer/shooter.
> 
> Whether he can figure out the best role for his skillset will determine his future in the NBA. If he continues to try and be LeBron Jr, he will fail.


i think that had a lot more to do with what texas needed him to do. his first two year at texas, james was a very good hustle/energy player. his last two years texas needed him to score the ball more, so he did and did so pretty well his senior season.

in the nba there aren't many(or any) teams that would need james to try to regularly create his own shot, so i don't he tries to do so.


----------



## rebelsun

Jonathan Watters said:


> Damion James to Shawn Marion? You realize that Marion could make it to the rim and back up again before James got there the first time, right?


Marion has unique overall athleticism and was obviously 'bouncier' in his prime than James, but I was referring to Marion's role and impact at SF. James understands his role and has the size, athleticism, and functional skillset to be an elite hustle 3 in the Marion, Wallace mode - the kind of SF that has especially high value next to a finesse 4. For all of his 'lack of focus' on being a hustle/energy guy, he somehow accidentally stumbled upon 10.3rpg in a tough conference. 

Marion is (or at least was) quicker and more agile, but Damion is no slouch athletically. Dude recorded, per DX, a 11'4 no-step vertical reach and 3.09sec sprint time. If Shawn is beating him to the rim, it's slithering his way through the crowd, but in a straight line it's not a slam dunk. Should they get there at the same time, I'm not sure Marion is boxing out James. 

I'm not sure anyone, including Damion, has ever thought he's anywhere approaching LeBron. That would imply playmaking, and James, with only modest turnover numbers, wasn't forcing anything there. If he was overly aggressive getting his own shot, it's probably only out of necessity due to Barnes' inability, despite all of Texas' resources/prestige/appeal/etc, to put together a balanced, functional roster to save his goddamn life. Not that James was that ineffective, getting almost 7 FTA/gm and finishing the season over 50% from the field.

Worst-case scenario, the guy is Mbah a Moute, who does compare favorably and has proven very useful in the league. What I'm getting at is that I think he can go beyond that pure defensive specialist role and be more of offensive contributor, in terms of attacking the rim and becoming a potentially legitimate threat from outside. He'll never be great at creating for himself or others, but when needed, I think he'll be able to contribute more on offense. I think he has hints of Al Thornton in him, in that he can go to that blind, tunnel-visioned, aggressive gear where he wills his way to the hoop, and can at least draw fouls.

If I had to be succinct about a comparison, in terms of just style and not effect/productivity/etc, I would compare Damion to all of Mbah a Moute's hustle/defense with a good chunk of Al Thornton's offense = IMO, an intriguing NBA SF.


----------



## HKF

What's up with draft express strictly twittering? How about some damn analysis. Also, I just want to see the measurements. If Greg Monroe is a center in the NBA, your team is going to be terrible. He's not strong enough to be a center and he's a skilled guy.


----------



## rebelsun

MemphisX said:


> ...he is not particularly long, not a great shooter...


Last summer, James measured a 7'0.75" wingspan and an 8'10 standing reach - the latter equaling Hansbrough and Lawal while being a full inch longer than Blake Griffin. I don't know how that's 'not particularly long.' He's above average for a SF (his ideal NBA position) and probably has enough length and athleticism to defend PFs part-time. He also shot over 36% from 3 for his entire career, on about 3 attempts/game the past three years. That doesn't mean he's Reggie Miller, but he's shown he has range. 



> what does he do in the league? What is his role?


Rebound, defend, sprint the floor, collect garbage points, camp out at the 3pt line, and attack the basket. (Potentially elite) complementary player. The same things that Marion and Wallace collect 8-figure salaries for doing.


----------



## Diable

I really don't remember seeing Damion James impact a basketball game in a way that made me think he was going to make an impact in the pros. Maybe I missed it, but I don't see any reason to hype him as a great pro prospect. If he was a great basketball player he should let the rest of us in it at some point.


----------



## rebelsun

Diable said:


> I really don't remember seeing Damion James impact a basketball game in a way that made me think he was going to make an impact in the pros. Maybe I missed it, but I don't see any reason to hype him as a great pro prospect. If he was a great basketball player he should let the rest of us in it at some point.


I don't think he's gonna set the world on fire, I just think his NBA value is higher than most believe. There's a lot to indicate that his downside will be minimal. I think his career NBA earnings will very likely surpass those of Babbitt, Heyward, Robinson, Pondexter, and possibly Ebanks.


----------



## HB

If he isnt the next' PJ Tucker' that is.


----------



## HB

HKF said:


> What's up with draft express strictly twittering? How about some damn analysis. Also, I just want to see the measurements. If Greg Monroe is a center in the NBA, your team is going to be terrible. He's not strong enough to be a center and he's a skilled guy.


Dude its 140 characters or less lol, he can't give a thorough analysis with that.


----------



## MemphisX

RebelSun said:


> Last summer, James measured a 7'0.75" wingspan and an 8'10 standing reach - the latter equaling Hansbrough and Lawal while being a full inch longer than Blake Griffin. I don't know how that's 'not particularly long.' He's above average for a SF (his ideal NBA position) and probably has enough length and athleticism to defend PFs part-time. He also shot over 36% from 3 for his entire career, on about 3 attempts/game the past three years. That doesn't mean he's Reggie Miller, but he's shown he has range.
> 
> 
> 
> Rebound, defend, sprint the floor, collect garbage points, camp out at the 3pt line, and attack the basket. (Potentially elite) complementary player. The same things that Marion and Wallace collect 8-figure salaries for doing.


James is not a NBA small forward. He can't begin to defend the position. Role players who can't defend better be able to score. I bet the team that takes him will have a poor draft history.


----------



## rebelsun

HB said:


> If he isnt the next' PJ Tucker' that is.


Well, PJ was also only 6'5 and never had a 3pt shot. He had a little Bonzi in him, but ultimately didn't have enough balance in his game.


----------



## SheriffKilla

Aminu was born 9/21/90, Wall 9/6/90, Cousins 8/13/90
Thats a insignificant age difference either way though


----------



## rebelsun

MemphisX said:


> He can't begin to defend the position.


Saying a 6'7, 225lb, world-class athlete - the latter being fair to say as he is among the best of the best - with a 7'+ wingspan 'can't begin to defend the (SF) position' is a ridiculous statement. If he can't even begin to defend the position, then Babbitt and Heyward have absolutely zero chance defending anyone, ever at the 3 in the NBA.


----------



## E.H. Munro

MemphisX said:


> James is not a NBA small forward. He can't begin to defend the position. Role players who can't defend better be able to score. I bet the team that takes him will have a poor draft history.


I'm sorry, but I really have to disagree here. If Ryan Gomes can defend the 3 spot (barely, admittedly) on the NBA level then so can James. I agree that his lateral quickness isn't great, but Jesus he's quicker than the slothlike Gomes.


----------



## HKF

Gomes is such a better player than James it's not even funny. Also Gomes went in the 2nd round. So if you're saying James should be a 2nd round pick, fair enough. Some are talking about this dude in the first round and I'm not sure why.


----------



## Rather Unique

MemphisX said:


> *I think Minnesota overpays to move up two spots for Turner. I think Cousins ends up in Philly. *
> 
> I also think Wesley Johnson's fall begins tomorrow with the measurements. Great college player. Great athlete. Beware of the Orangemen though. That system really over inflates the value of athletic wings with limitations. Or maybe I am just not a fan.


Early word out of philly is that you'll have to eat Brand's contract if you want that #2 spot. I really don't see anyone THAT hungry...


----------



## E.H. Munro

HKF said:


> Gomes is such a better player than James it's not even funny. Also Gomes went in the 2nd round. So if you're saying James should be a 2nd round pick, fair enough. Some are talking about this dude in the first round and I'm not sure why.


Gomes certainly wasn't any better coming into the NBA, though. He was a biblically bad defender in those days. Frankly I consider everything outside the top 20 to be "second round". With certain exceptions, in most years you're shooting craps after the first 20 picks or so (one of those exceptional years being the year that Gomes entered when there were about two dozen players drafted in the 20-60 range that were able to stick in the NBA). When they were saying "first round pick" I was assuming they meant "end of the first round" when we're in that crapshoot territory.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Rather Unique said:


> Early word out of philly is that you'll have to eat Brand's contract if you want that #2 spot. I really don't see anyone THAT hungry...


Eddy Curry? He'll eat anything...


----------



## HB

HKF said:


> Gomes is such a better player than James it's not even funny. Also Gomes went in the 2nd round. So if you're saying James should be a 2nd round pick, fair enough. Some are talking about this dude in the first round and I'm not sure why.


Weird how Gomes, Dudley and Smith could carve niches in the NBA but Lawrence Roberts has faded into obscurity


----------



## rocketeer

HB said:


> If he isnt the next' PJ Tucker' that is.


you couldn't have picked a worse comparison.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

cpawfan said:


> Cousins will out nimble NBA goons, but he isn't going to physically dominate them, let alone the vast majority of NBA bigs. He will get pushed off his spots by quite a few people in the NBA just like WVU did.
> 
> Cousins has agility and natural strength, but just like with NFL linemen, experience, guile and strength developed through dedication in the weight room is going to give Cousin trouble.
> 
> The quicker you get Cousins the ball, the more efficient he is going to be. If he has to spend 10 seconds battling for post position with a goon, he will be out of his sweet spot.


I don't know how else to say this - you are flat out wrong. I don't know what you saw in the West Virginia game from a bunch of 6'8 skinny guys triple teaming him, but that situation has almost zero relevance to Cousins the pro. (And that is beside the fact that he had 15 points and 8 rebounds in 28 minutes)

You really need to go back and watch some tape on Cousins. AJ Ogilvy isn't an ideal pro from a physical standpoint, but he is a legit 7 footer with a good frame and someone who is going to make a lot of money wherever he ends up playing. Cousins made the look like the backup on the JV team. 

He went 7-8 from the floor in just 26 minutes against Jeff Foote, another guy who is very close to being NBA caliber. He completely dominated Jarvis Varnado in their first meeting. 

Go watch the tape again, and you will realize how ridiculous you sound. 

About as ridiculous as HB does claiming a 6'11, 290 pounder with a 7'6 wingspan is a "pudgy PF".


----------



## jmk

Cousins measured at like 19% body fat. That is most definitely pudgy, if not another word.


----------



## HB

Well even if the pudgy part were wrong which it isn't considering this guy came in at 292, not exactly svelte....anywhoo, what position would he play if he were drafted by the Nets? Of course PF. Hence pudgy pf.



> Cousins measured at like 19% body fat. That is most definitely pudgy, if not another word.


Ding ding ding


----------



## MemphisX

Rather Unique said:


> Early word out of philly is that you'll have to eat Brand's contract if you want that #2 spot. I really don't see anyone THAT hungry...


Beware of the teams trying to win titles like Dallas, San Antonio, etc.


----------



## Rather Unique

good point X and I wouldn't put it past someone like Cuban, but damn that's a massive contract to eat. 50+ over the next 3 yrs. Jeeez...if that happens then no contract IMO is untradeable.


----------



## Vuchato

Wouldn't be a bad way to use Damp's massive expiring.

I'd look at it, as a team trading for the package, as giving Turner (or Cousins or Favors) a max deal, and Brand #2 overall money, which is probably about what he's worth now. Both end within a year of one another. I think you have to believe Turner is going to be a great player for a while. Or, if you don't have any cap space and the owner doesn't care how much he spends, trade some expirings for it anyway, Turner's probably a better choice to use the money on than a guy like Iguodala or Ellis.


----------



## HKF

I'm not sure why you trade 10-15 years of Evan Turner to get rid of 3 years of Elton Brand. The Sixers deserve to be terrible if they are going to do something so shortsighted. You don't cut your nose to spite your face.


----------



## cpawfan

HB said:


> If he isnt the next' PJ Tucker' that is.


More like Alando Tucker


----------



## cpawfan

Jonathan Watters said:


> I don't know how else to say this - you are flat out wrong. I don't know what you saw in the West Virginia game from a bunch of 6'8 skinny guys triple teaming him, but that situation has almost zero relevance to Cousins the pro. (And that is beside the fact that he had 15 points and 8 rebounds in 28 minutes)
> 
> You really need to go back and watch some tape on Cousins. AJ Ogilvy isn't an ideal pro from a physical standpoint, but he is a legit 7 footer with a good frame and someone who is going to make a lot of money wherever he ends up playing. Cousins made the look like the backup on the JV team.
> 
> He went 7-8 from the floor in just 26 minutes against Jeff Foote, another guy who is very close to being NBA caliber. He completely dominated Jarvis Varnado in their first meeting.
> 
> Go watch the tape again, and you will realize how ridiculous you sound.
> 
> About as ridiculous as HB does claiming a 6'11, 290 pounder with a 7'6 wingspan is a "pudgy PF".


Only one wrong is you. Heck, you don't even have basic facts correct. Kevin Jones, Wellington Smith and Cam Thoroughman are not skinny guys. All of them are significantly stronger than Oglivy, Foote and Varnado because of Huggins emphasis on weight training. They pushed Cousins off of his spots multiple times during the game.

As for calling Cousins a pudgy PF, you have to understand that there is a significant number of Nets fans convinced Cousins can play PF in the NBA.


----------



## cpawfan

HKF said:


> I'm not sure why you trade 10-15 years of Evan Turner to get rid of 3 years of Elton Brand. The Sixers deserve to be terrible if they are going to do something so shortsighted. You don't cut your nose to spite your face.


You need to keep repeating this basic fact. Ed Stefanski is a moron


----------



## Pacers Fan

HKF said:


> I'm not sure why you trade 10-15 years of Evan Turner to get rid of 3 years of Elton Brand. The Sixers deserve to be terrible if they are going to do something so shortsighted. You don't cut your nose to spite your face.


I'm assuming in a deal involving Brand and the #2, Philly wouldn't be moving out of the draft, just down, and not very far. 

New Jersey or Minnesota might be desperate enough for Turner that they'd take Brand's deal, and Philly gets Derrick Favors or Cousins, both of whom is probably a better fit for their team. It's probably just a starting precondition that if a team wants #2, they must take Brand, and then the details can be worked out. 

Anywhere beyond the top 4 just isn't a smart move for the 76ers, though.


----------



## jmk

Pacers Fan said:


> I'm assuming in a deal involving Brand and the #2, Philly wouldn't be moving out of the draft, just down, and not very far.
> 
> *New Jersey* or Minnesota might be desperate enough for Turner that they'd take Brand's deal, and Philly gets Derrick Favors or Cousins, both of whom is probably a better fit for their team. It's probably just a starting precondition that if a team wants #2, they must take Brand, and then the details can be worked out.
> 
> Anywhere beyond the top 4 just isn't a smart move for the 76ers, though.


No chance in hell.


----------



## Diable

Actually if the Wolves really wanted Evan Turner they have three first rounders and two seconds. If I'm the Sixers I'd be more than a little willing to listen to an offer like 4, 16 and one of the 2nd rounders.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

cpawfan said:


> Only one wrong is you. Heck, you don't even have basic facts correct. Kevin Jones, Wellington Smith and Cam Thoroughman are not skinny guys. All of them are significantly stronger than Oglivy, Foote and Varnado because of Huggins emphasis on weight training. They pushed Cousins off of his spots multiple times during the game.
> 
> As for calling Cousins a pudgy PF, you have to understand that there is a significant number of Nets fans convinced Cousins can play PF in the NBA.


And you think because you supposedly saw him get pushed off his spot a couple of times that this erases an entire season where he dominated through strength and size on a level that has rarely ever been seen in the NCAA? It's beyond ridiculous. Cousins is every bit ready to dominate in the strength department, it is one of the major reasons he is so unique in terms of talent. If you don't believe this you shouldn't even have him in your lottery.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Well even if the pudgy part were wrong which it isn't considering this guy came in at 292, not exactly svelte....anywhoo, what position would he play if he were drafted by the Nets? Of course PF. Hence pudgy pf.
> 
> 
> 
> Ding ding ding


So what about when you called him a PF before the Nets had the #2 pick? Maybe you want to claim that never happened?


----------



## Jonathan Watters

jmk said:


> Cousins measured at like 19% body fat. That is most definitely pudgy, if not another word.


16.4%

Interesting to see Nick Collison and Chris Kaman at similar levels.


----------



## Vuchato

Jonathan Watters said:


> 16.4%
> 
> Interesting to see Nick Collison and Chris Kaman at similar levels.


interesting that those are really the only guys who've done anything in their careers after coming out at that level. Besides them, you have to go to Shaq at about 3/4s of the body fat to find another successful guy. And I wouldn't really call Collison too successful himself.

Not to say that thats proof Cousins will bust, but its yet another red flag added to his resume.

Also, to Diable, I really don't think that 4, 16, and a 2nd rounder is a good deal for #2, unless Philly's just gonna take Cousins anyway, which wouldn't surprise me too much. But I think if they really are willing to deal, they could get a better deal than that. Either find a team actually willing to take on Brand's deal and give up a nice piece as well, or force the Wolves to bid something like #4 and Rubio or Love.


----------



## SheriffKilla

If I was philly I would take 4,16 and one of Wolves youngsters. Obviously they wont give up Love, Jefferson or Flynn maybe someone like Gomes or even Ellington who still has a chance to be ok.


----------



## cpawfan

Jonathan Watters said:


> And you think because you supposedly saw him get pushed off his spot a couple of times that this erases an entire season where he dominated through strength and size on a level that has rarely ever been seen in the NCAA? It's beyond ridiculous. Cousins is every bit ready to dominate in the strength department, it is one of the major reasons he is so unique in terms of talent. If you don't believe this you shouldn't even have him in your lottery.


I didn't supposedly see that and Cousins didn't dominate anyone like the big man goons in the NBA.

Cousins will be able to score in the NBA because of his nimbleness and his ability to face up and handle the ball for a big man. He is not ready to overpower the men who make their living being goons and role players at the 5.


----------



## cpawfan

Jonathan Watters said:


> So what about when you called him a PF before the Nets had the #2 pick? Maybe you want to claim that never happened?


Far be it from me to defend HB, but there have been plenty of Nets fans that have been drooling over Cousins for months and they all claim he could play next to Brook Lopez. 

People claiming he could play PF is neither new nor unique.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Still think Cousins can't physically dominate NBA big men because of a game in which he was guarded mostly by Joe Mazzulla?


----------



## jmk

Jonathan Watters said:


> Still think Cousins can't physically dominate NBA big men because of a game in which he was guarded mostly by Joe Mazzulla?


Wait a second, are you bumping this thread because of a 14 point, 10 rebound, 5 TO game on 5/11 shooting...in the summer league? Really?


----------



## HB

Draft thoughts....the Clippers are for real. Its too much talent on that team. Bledsoe, Warren and Aminu alone are going to be solid players. Talk less Griffin, Jordan, Kaman, Gordon and Davis. I know people love the whole 'oh its the Clips' crap talk, but this team with a good coach (and I am not sure VDN is that guy) is ready to explode. Bledsoe looks pretty good, provided its only summer league.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

jmk said:


> Wait a second, are you bumping this thread because of a 14 point, 10 rebound, 5 TO game on 5/11 shooting...in the summer league? Really?


Obviously you didn't watch the game, or the West Virginia game in which a PG defending him convinced the original poster that Cousins wouldn't be able to body NBA big men. 

Just trying to give him a little rope, but people that say ridiculous things generally aren't interested in saving face when called out on it. Just ask HB.


----------



## cpawfan

Wow, glad to see you are still sticking with providing misinformation. Brining up Joe has nothing to do with anything besides a Pan-worthy logical fallacy and a flat untruth. I also love how you reduce the term to body NBA big men. Being able to body someone on the court is not the same as overpowering them. Plus, please tell me where I said Cousins wasn't going to be able to put up pretty stats?

Additionally, I never shy away from my comments. Your list of mistakes on this site is far, far longer than mine.

Personally, I'm getting a great laugh out of you thinking there are any NBA worthy goons on Detroit's or the Lakers SL squads.


----------



## SheriffKilla

cpawfan said:


> Wow, glad to see you are still sticking with providing misinformation. Brining up Joe has nothing to do with anything besides a Pan-worthy logical fallacy and a flat untruth. I also love how you reduce the term to body NBA big men. Being able to body someone on the court is not the same as overpowering them. Plus, please tell me where I said Cousins wasn't going to be able to put up pretty stats?
> 
> Additionally, I never shy away from my comments. Your list of mistakes on this site is far, far longer than mine.
> 
> Personally, I'm getting a great laugh out of you thinking there are any NBA worthy goons on Detroit's or the Lakers SL squads.


Derrick Caracter and Greg Monroe are NBA guys (even if Caracter doesnt make the team he is still on par with plenty 10,11,12th men out there). Cousins has certainly looked better than Favors so far and I do believe he will be the better player down the line but not because of 2 summer league games.


----------



## cpawfan

fjkdsi said:


> Derrick Caracter and Greg Monroe are NBA guys (even if Caracter doesnt make the team he is still on par with plenty 10,11,12th men out there). Cousins has certainly looked better than Favors so far and I do believe he will be the better player down the line but not because of 2 summer league games.


Caracter is not a goon. Why would you bring up Monroe?


----------



## Jonathan Watters

cpawfan said:


> Wow, glad to see you are still sticking with providing misinformation. Brining up Joe has nothing to do with anything besides a Pan-worthy logical fallacy and a flat untruth. I also love how you reduce the term to body NBA big men. Being able to body someone on the court is not the same as overpowering them. Plus, please tell me where I said Cousins wasn't going to be able to put up pretty stats?


How can you accuse somebody of misquoting you in once sentence, and then do the exact same thing you accuse me of in the next? Please tell me where I told anybody that you said Cousins wouldn't be able to put up pretty stats? How does a person become so deluded they are incapable of seeing this amount of hypocrisy? 

And bringing up HB has nothing to do with anything, other than his tendency to make similarly idiotic statements. You folks will figure it out eventually. 



> Additionally, I never shy away from my comments. Your list of mistakes on this site is far, far longer than mine.
> 
> Personally, I'm getting a great laugh out of you thinking there are any NBA worthy goons on Detroit's or the Lakers SL squads.


:combust:


Hey, you had your chance. I thought you might see the writing on the wall with the way he is he is throwing legit bigs around like rag dolls, but you don't. And that is the difference between you and I - I'm more than capable of admitting I was wrong about something. At any rate, this is only going to get more fun for me. 

That Joe Mazzulla was just too much of a goon for Cousins to handle!


----------



## HB

You sure do like saying that HB name though lol....do I need to start paying rent? I seem to occupy your thoughts A LOT!


----------



## Jonathan Watters

The "get HB to say something stupid and never let him forget about it" game is always worth my time...


----------



## cpawfan

Jonathan Watters said:


> How can you accuse somebody of misquoting you in once sentence, and then do the exact same thing you accuse me of in the next? Please tell me where I told anybody that you said Cousins wouldn't be able to put up pretty stats? How does a person become so deluded they are incapable of seeing this amount of hypocrisy?


There is no hypocrisy from me. The reason I made the comments about stats is because you have the misguided opinion that they matter in this discussion. It is very clear from your comments that you don't understand this discussion.




> And bringing up HB has nothing to do with anything, other than his tendency to make similarly idiotic statements. You folks will figure it out eventually.


I didn't say anything about you bring up HB. Besides, you are the one making idiotic statements.




> Hey, you had your chance. I thought you might see the writing on the wall with the way he is he is throwing legit bigs around like rag dolls, but you don't.


He hasn't thrown around one legit goon. Hell for that matter he hasn't thrown around anyone that will be a decent defender in the NBA. On top of that, your definition of throwing around an opposing big man is very generous. 



> And that is the difference between you and I - I'm more than capable of admitting I was wrong about something. At any rate, this is only going to get more fun for me.


No you aren't. When you are wrong (which is often) you change the debate. You've done it multiple times already in this thread.



> That Joe Mazzulla was just too much of a goon for Cousins to handle!


Pan would be so proud of you. Once again posting something that has NOTHING to do with the discussion.


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## Jonathan Watters

cpawfan said:


> There is no hypocrisy from me. The reason I made the comments about stats is because you have the misguided opinion that they matter in this discussion. It is very clear from your comments that you don't understand this discussion.


I do? Where exactly do I mention stats in this discussion? 




> I didn't say anything about you bring up HB. Besides, you are the one making idiotic statements.


I'm not the one who watched DeMarcus Cousins match up against Joe Mazzulla and tried to take something away from it. 



> He hasn't thrown around one legit goon. Hell for that matter he hasn't thrown around anyone that will be a decent defender in the NBA. On top of that, your definition of throwing around an opposing big man is very generous.


The clocking is ticking, and you are only digging yourself deeper into this hole. Please, continue. 



> No you aren't. When you are wrong (which is often) you change the debate. You've done it multiple times already in this thread.


I have changed nothing. Your original point is still ridiculous, and I have never deviated from attempting to get you to address that point. 



> Pan would be so proud of you. Once again posting something that has NOTHING to do with the discussion.


The hell it doesn't. It has everything to do with the discussion.


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## cpawfan

Jonathan Watters said:


> I do? Where exactly do I mention stats in this discussion?


There was zero reason to bump this thread after Cousins' first summer league game. He didn't do anything to disprove me comments, yet clearly you thought what he did was impressive. Considering how misguided the rest of your commentary has been, the only conclusion was that you thought his double double was impressive. 



> I'm not the one who watched DeMarcus Cousins match up against Joe Mazzulla and tried to take something away from it.


Again with the Joe crap. Joe has nothing to do with this. You can't even be honest about what really happened in the WVU - UK game.



> The clocking is ticking, and you are only digging yourself deeper into this hole. Please, continue.


I'm not digging any hole. 



> I have changed nothing. Your original point is still ridiculous, and I have never deviated from attempting to get you to address that point.


You have changed it multiple times. Just a little honesty from you would go a long way. So far, there hasn't been any.



> The hell it doesn't. It has everything to do with the discussion.


Again, no it doesn't. Please, just once, trying being honest.


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## Jonathan Watters

cpawfan said:


> There was zero reason to bump this thread after Cousins' first summer league game. He didn't do anything to disprove me comments, yet clearly you thought what he did was impressive. Considering how misguided the rest of your commentary has been, the only conclusion was that you thought his double double was impressive.


He's been doing everything to disprove it, since the first game he played at Kentucky. 



> Again with the Joe crap. Joe has nothing to do with this. You can't even be honest about what really happened in the WVU - UK game.


Maybe you should go back and actually watch the tape. I knew you were full of it before watching it again, but a second viewing only made your position even more ridiculous. I know you aren't used to getting called out, but you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. 



> You have changed it multiple times. Just a little honesty from you would go a long way. So far, there hasn't been any.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, no it doesn't. Please, just once, trying being honest.


Care to inform me what I've been dishonest about?


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## cpawfan

So that things don't get lost. My comments about Cousins early in this thread.



cpawfan said:


> Cousins is an NBA Center, not an NBA PF. Yes he has enough of a handle to play outside of the post on offense and he is going to need that in the NBA. WVU demonstrated that strong guys can push and keep him off the block. Goons like Josh Boone are going to make things difficult in the half court for Cousins if he just tries to set up on the block until he fully commits to an NBA strength training regimen.
> 
> On defense, the more you make Cousins move, the more he is going to get abused. He needs to play near the basket on D because he has decent timing and can block some shots.


The main point of my statement was that Cousins needs to fully commit to an NBA strength training program in order for him to become as dominating at the center position as he projects to be.

Along with that I offered one observation and an example of the type of player that could give Cousins trouble on the block until he improves his strength.


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## HKF

I don't know how good Cousins is going to be, but one thing is for sure, Minnesota fans are going to want to kill themselves. He seems like a future all-star to me.


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## Jonathan Watters

And you offered it after watching a game in which 

a) he was going up against a zone 
b)the player he most often posted was Joe Mazzulla
c)the next most common post opponent was Da'Sean Butler
d) he was regularly fronted/double teamed throughout the game

This might cast doubt on the Kentucky guards for not getting him the ball, or Calipari for finding a way to get his guards to get Cousins the ball, but it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Cousins as an NBA big man.

How can you claim to offer up a legitimate basketball perspective when you can't even recognize these basic things? 

This is beyond you completely ignoring that he has physically dominated every big man he has gone up against to this point in his career - not just beat up on, physically dominated.


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## Jonathan Watters

And if there was any doubt during the draft process, tonight's game confirms that Demarcus Cousins is flat out crazy. I don't necessarily want to say Ron Artest-level crazy, but he might be in the ballpark.


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## cpawfan

Now for my opinion that Cousins needs to get stronger. The question is how does one actually disprove it? 

We don't know how much or how little Cousins has worked out since the college season ended. We can make observations on how he looks standing on the court, but there is too much we don't know. So it becomes a matter of observing his play.

However, it isn't that simple based upon what has transpired. Mr. Watters is of the opinion that as of Cousins' last game in the NCAA's he was already set to physically dominate in the NBA. Once again, the question is how do you prove that? 

No matter the held belief, you can't ignore that Cousins will have participated in some form of working out between the end of his college season and even today, let alone the start of the regular season. 

So we are left with observations and assumptions. In order to proceed, there needs to be common definitions. My original statement focused on Cousins' ability to set up on the block and maintain position against goons. Mr. Watters has tossed out various terms such as "body NBA big men" and "every bit ready to dominate in the strength department." Further in the conversation, I said: "Cousins will out nimble NBA goons, but he isn't going to physically dominate them, let alone the vast majority of NBA bigs. He will get pushed off his spots by quite a few people in the NBA just like WVU did."

In order to properly evaluate Cousins on what is truly a narrow point, we have to watch for a small set of plays. Plus, we have to parse out of that small set of plays the players he is going against.


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## cpawfan

Jonathan Watters said:


> And you offered it after watching a game


That isn't true. That is simply an item from a short post. One that you are making far, far too big of a deal out of. The WVU game was an example I used. It isn't critical to my opinion, nor was it a determining factor.



> in which
> a) he was going up against a zone
> b)the player he most often posted was Joe Mazzulla
> c)the next most common post opponent was Da'Sean Butler
> d) he was regularly fronted/double teamed throughout the game


So to be clear, you are attempting to say that Jones, Smith and Thoroughman had very little to do with how Cousins was defended? 

How did you differentiate between an actual post up and the times he was fighting through defenders to even establish position?



> This might cast doubt on the Kentucky guards for not getting him the ball, or Calipari for finding a way to get his guards to get Cousins the ball, but it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Cousins as an NBA big man.


Of course Cal's in game adjustments sucked. That is nothing new and is immaterial. However, there is plenty to analyze about Cousins from that game.



> How can you claim to offer up a legitimate basketball perspective when you can't even recognize these basic things?


I have the same question for you since you have failed to put these events in their proper context.



> This is beyond you completely ignoring that he has physically dominated every big man he has gone up against to this point in his career - not just beat up on, physically dominated.


He didn't physically dominate Favors in their High School matchup. 

Again we come back to context. Out of all those players he did dominate, there is a small handful that even had the raw physical size to deal with Cousins.


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## cpawfan

HKF said:


> I don't know how good Cousins is going to be, but one thing is for sure, Minnesota fans are going to want to kill themselves. He seems like a future all-star to me.


Not many people had doubts about Cousins ability to play (score, rebound and pass). The risk management analysis was how often will the team see the "good" Cousins versus how often they would see the "bad" Cousins.


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## RedsDrunk

sigh*


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## Jonathan Watters

cpawfan said:


> So to be clear, you are attempting to say that Jones, Smith and Thoroughman had very little to do with how Cousins was defended?


I am saying that Cousins absolutely did not have trouble establishing position against those three players. (you wouldn't have been trying to **GASP** change the argument on me there, would you?)The tape clearly plays this out. Why you have decided to hang on to this delusion when you know you are wrong, I have no idea. 



> How did you differentiate between an actual post up and the times he was fighting through defenders to even establish position?


I think I know how to tell when a post up attempt is taking place. You on the other hand...apparently confuse Joe Mazzulla for three players that were rarely physically involved with Cousins the entire game. 



> I have the same question for you since you have failed to put these events in their proper context.


I put them exactly in the proper context. You are the one who can't remember what he saw.


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## SheriffKilla

Ey, JW do you have that game on tape? Just interested, because honestly I can't even remember what happened against WVU. Did Cousins even play good that game? I do know that strength was one of the attributes Cousins was known for entering the draft. Strength was a strength. I think no body doubted his skill and physical ability it's just a lot of people were worried about his ability to keep his head in the game, an issue that I feel and felt was much overstated. Cousins is clearly a better player than Favors currently (even though Favors out played him in their HS match up) but Favors seems to have more potential because he is more mobile, almost as big and can really get up.


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## 76ersFan11

I doubt his physical ability at 290. I have to agree with Cpaw here, unless that's real raw muscle, I see Cousins as a overweight big man that's gonna be abused by some of the stronger low-post players.

However, I will say that the concern is sadly over-stated. Why? Well, how many low-post big men are in the NBA today? No, Howard throws his body around, he isn't a post player. I think the best post men, The Gasol brothers and Bogut come to mind. These guys aren't exactly physically imposing. The days of Shaq, Ewing and Hakeem are long gone and may never come back as long as organizations like the AAU and Coaches like Calipari exist.


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## HKF

Cousins played fine, the problem was everyone else was complete garbage.


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## SheriffKilla

76ersFan11 said:


> I doubt his physical ability at 290. I have to agree with Cpaw here, unless that's real raw muscle, I see Cousins as a overweight big man that's gonna be abused by some of the stronger low-post players.
> 
> However, I will say that the concern is sadly over-stated. Why? Well, how many low-post big men are in the NBA today? No, Howard throws his body around, he isn't a post player. I think the best post men, The Gasol brothers and Bogut come to mind. These guys aren't exactly physically imposing. The days of Shaq, Ewing and Hakeem are long gone and may never come back as long as organizations like the AAU and Coaches like Calipari exist.


Yes, you're right. His weight was an issue some people were worried about. And while I do think it's important for pro guys to be in shape it doesn't seem to big of a deal for now. However it could come back to haunt him later on in his career if he doesn't properly take care of himself right now.


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## HB

Landry Fields y'all...Landry Fields

On a side note, Ed Davis is going to be a player in this league


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## Jonathan Watters

fjkdsi said:


> Ey, JW do you have that game on tape? Just interested, because honestly I can't even remember what happened against WVU. Did Cousins even play good that game?


Yes, I do. And he didn't have a great game - he missed a few easy buckets, and his guards ignored him the vast majority of the time. But it had nothing to do with him not being able to establish post position. 



> I do know that strength was one of the attributes Cousins was known for entering the draft. Strength was a strength.


Absolutely. If strength is a concern for DeMarcus Cousins, we haven't seen a strong player enter the league in a very, very long time. That is my entire point here. 



> I think no body doubted his skill and physical ability it's just a lot of people were worried about his ability to keep his head in the game, an issue that I feel and felt was much overstated. Cousins is clearly a better player than Favors currently (even though Favors out played him in their HS match up) but Favors seems to have more potential because he is more mobile, almost as big and can really get up.


The mental issues could be a problem. His behavior in the Minnesota game was out of control, and while entertaining for me won't be tolerated by the Sacramento brass.


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## HB

Greg Monroe man, never saw him pull off so many post moves at Gtown...this guy could actually turn out to be a pretty good player if he can keep up with his development


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## bball2223

If Detroit pairs him with a young defensive center they could have a pretty good front line for years to come.


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## SheriffKilla

whats up with Aldrich and Wesley Johnson, why haven't I heard anything about them?


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## cpawfan

You take the top blue chip offensive and defensive linemen from the past 10 years and you will find a lot of guys that are just as much physical freaks as Cousins. Guys with size, speed, strength and nimble feet. Not a single one of them was ready to go into the NFL after one season (no red shirt years here) of college ball and dominate. 

Having natural strength and the ability to dominate your age group is one thing. Cousins is a big boy and has a lot of natural strength. Physically dominating men in the post is something else.

Cousins has a lot of things going for him. His feet are good enough to work around people in the post and his face up game will allow him to draw defenders out. He simply isn't the second coming of Shaq.


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## Wilmatic2

I'm pretty sure its been noted, but the Lakers came away with two steals. Derrick Caracter will do some damage and Devin Ebanks is Ariza 2.0. DC will probably get some burn and Ebanks not so much considering LA signed Barnes.


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## E.H. Munro

Given that they signed Barnes, does Ebanks even make the team?


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## SheriffKilla

Yeah, I mean they were steals in that they got picked lower than they should have been. But are these guys even gonna make the team, let alone play meaningful minutes?


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## HKF

E.H. Munro said:


> Given that they signed Barnes, does Ebanks even make the team?


Yes, both Ebanks and Caracter are making the team. The Lakers without Shannon Brown would stand at 14 players.

Starters: Kobe, Artest, Fisher, Gasol, Bynum
Bench: Blake, Odom, Ratliff, Barnes, Vujacic, Walton
(this is 11 total)
DNP: Caracter, Ebanks

Two roster spots left.


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## SheriffKilla

Isn't Maury's son still on the team?


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## HKF

fjkdsi said:


> Isn't Maury's son still on the team?


No, Morrison is a free agent.


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## RedsDrunk

Yeah. So John Wall.


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## king DE

I'm a Kris Joseph and Corey Fisher fan but just not sure they will ever translate into the NBA. People were really impressed with Vander Blue in the U18 Americas Championships but I think he is still sort of stuck between positions.


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