# ESPN Insider: Ranks Knicks #10 in the East



## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

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Major additions: Quentin Richardson, Jerome James, Channing Frye, Nate Robinson 

Major subtractions: Kurt Thomas, Jerome Williams

The skinny: Let the soap opera begin. Larry Brown's arrival has created a firestorm of expectations. Can Larry live up to them? Isiah Thomas did a decent job of getting Brown some more talent to work with. Richardson and Robinson, especially, could provide a big impact next year. But is the combo of Stephon Marbury, Jamal Crawford, Richardson, Tim Thomas, Malik Rose, James, Fyre and Mike Sweetney enough to put the Knicks over the top? There are way too many players on the Knicks' roster who aren't Larry Brown type players. Can he get Marbury and Crawford to play his way? If he can, the Knicks should be a strong playoff contender, a feat that would be among Brown's greatest. If he can't, Brown will want changes -- quickly. Will Isiah swallow his pride and dump his two biggest acquisitions since taking over the Knicks? Either way, the Knicks will be the biggest story of 2005. That may be all Isiah was looking for in the first place.

Click to expand...

I don't think I'm allowed to quote the entire article so I just added the Knicks. If you have Insider you can read the rest of the article. Chad Ford played us something terrible. :curse: Oh well, to prove folks wrong we just have to play well this season. But being ranked #10 is an insult. 

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&id=2143738


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

10th is 2 spots out of the playoffs, which is an improvement from last season. The East is better than last season too. It will be a big improvement just to go from 33 wins to 40 wins.


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

I Disagree since we where the Best Team in the Atlantic untill Injuries & Coaching changes effected our Chemistry . I think we should win 41 games no matter what since where no counting on Houston or Penny This Year & We have insurence should Crawford go down to injury . Where better then the Celtics-Raptors & where on par with the Newts & 6ers . things go right were the 3rd team in the East by Winning the Atlantic .


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

Sorry I should have added all of Chad Ford's rankings. I don't understand how he has the Bucks and Wizards ahead of us. The 76ers to me are better than the Bucks and Wizards as well. 

1, Pacers
2. Heat
3. Pistons
4. Nets
5. Cavs
6. Wizards
7. Chicago
8. Bucks 
9. 76ers
*10. Knicks*
11. Boston
12. Magic
13. Raptors
14. Hawks
15. Bobcats


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

Kitty said:


> Sorry I should have added all of Chad Ford's rankings. I don't understand how he has the Bucks and Wizards ahead of us. The 76ers to me are better than the Bucks and Wizards as well.
> 
> 1, Pacers
> 2. Heat
> ...


what makes you think the Knicks are better than the Bucks and the Wizards?


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

GoDWade said:


> what makes you think the Knicks are better than the Bucks and the Wizards?


Yeah, I was gonna say... Bucks have Bogut/Joe Smith/Mason/Redd/Ford with Simmons off the bench, thats a better lineup then the Knicks, and they don't have too many players at 1 or 2 positions. Also, the Knicks are not up to par with the Nets, the Nets have Kidd, Carter and Jefferson, not to mention Krstic who should be improved. IMO the Knicks definitely need to move some players and get a good big man before they see the playoffs again.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

Blazer Freak said:


> Yeah, I was gonna say... Bucks have Bogut/Joe Smith/Mason/Redd/Ford with Simmons off the bench, thats a better lineup then the Knicks, and they don't have too many players at 1 or 2 positions. Also, the Knicks are not up to par with the Nets, the Nets have Kidd, Carter and Jefferson, not to mention Krstic who should be improved. IMO the Knicks definitely need to move some players and get a good big man before they see the playoffs again.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but did I say we were up to par with the Nets? So why make that statement? If I thought otherwise I would have indicated that in my original post. As for the Bucks, I'm not sold on them being better than us, because I'm not sold on Bogut. Joe Smith? Please he is another player that has unachieved his entire career as a #1 draft pick. Will Ford be 100 percent to run the offense? Or will past injuries hinder that process? Like I said in my original post..we will always be underdogs until we prove guys like Chad Ford wrong.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> what makes you think the Knicks are better than the Bucks and the Wizards?


Replacing a defender like Larry Hughes for Caron Butler isn't changing my opinion that they are better than us. They need to come better than that. Did you forget we have one of the best coaches in the league?


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## BIGsHOTBOY12345 (Aug 24, 2005)

Kitty said:


> Sorry I should have added all of Chad Ford's rankings. I don't understand how he has the Bucks and Wizards ahead of us. The 76ers to me are better than the Bucks and Wizards as well.
> 
> 1, Pacers
> 2. Heat
> ...


hOW THE HELL CAN THEY PUT THE NETS AHEAD OF US?! tHEY LOST THEIR POWER FORWARD IN BIRAN SCALABRINE TO BOSTON, AND THEY MISSED ON GETTING THE CHANCE ON sHAREEF


Which lineup do you think is better?

Nets: vince, nenad, jason, rich, and cliff

knicks: Q, JJ, crawford, marbury, and sweeney + we are trying to get curry so that will help us. But his medical problems in the past might slow us down. and larry brown

And the wizards?! they lost larry hughes the only good addition they got is antonio daniels, and he isnt even half better than larry hughes. i cant wailt to show that editor what the knicks can really do


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## kflint5 (Aug 15, 2005)

i really hope that your joking. The knicks aren't half the team that New Jersey is. The nets have better players than us at every position. The wizards might have lost larry, but he took away from antwan and gil's production. Now they have a deeper bench, more players that can contribute without the ball (rather than dominate the ball like hughes). The bucks on the otherhand, I think are even with us. They are deeper and have a real nice guard to compliment their scorers, but I think people are overrating the bucks because they got the first pick and had a few good signings.


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## BIGsHOTBOY12345 (Aug 24, 2005)

kflint5 said:


> i really hope that your joking. The knicks aren't half the team that New Jersey is. The nets have better players than us at every position. The wizards might have lost larry, but he took away from antwan and gil's production. Now they have a deeper bench, more players that can contribute without the ball (rather than dominate the ball like hughes). The bucks on the otherhand, I think are even with us. They are deeper and have a real nice guard to compliment their scorers, but I think people are overrating the bucks because they got the first pick and had a few good signings.


What additions have the bucks had this year? i know they got better this year, but the knicks were the first in the atlantic divison until all of the injuries hit us. The nets missed out on a lot of chances to get better players and they missed on that chance. The wizards getting Caron And the other player from the lakers for kwame brown was a big mistake. We have gotten many players that have defense, and that can shoot beyond the arch like QR, and david lee. Nate robinson also can drive in the lane so that is also a + side. The nets didnt get many additions and the fact that we were better last year until injuries to houston, and crawford for a short time hit us, we also got many additons in JJ and Frye to move into power forward helps us


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

Kitty said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but did I say we were up to par with the Nets? So why make that statement? If I thought otherwise I would have indicated that in my original post. As for the Bucks, I'm not sold on them being better than us, because I'm not sold on Bogut. Joe Smith? Please he is another player that has unachieved his entire career as a #1 draft pick. Will Ford be 100 percent to run the offense? Or will past injuries hinder that process? Like I said in my original post..we will always be underdogs until we prove guys like Chad Ford wrong.


The on par with the Nets thing was directed at Quills. 



Quills said:


> I Disagree since we where the Best Team in the Atlantic untill Injuries & Coaching changes effected our Chemistry . I think we should win 41 games no matter what since where no counting on Houston or Penny This Year & We have insurence should Crawford go down to injury . Where better then the Celtics-Raptors & *where on par with the Newts & 6ers * . things go right were the 3rd team in the East by Winning the Atlantic .


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

kflint5 said:


> The wizards might have lost larry, but he took away from antwan and gil's production. Now they have a deeper bench, more players that can contribute without the ball (rather than dominate the ball like hughes).


Hughes dominated the offense? Come on man..if anything Gilbert was the one dominating the entire offense. I like Gilbert's game, but em....he is a chucker.


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## kflint5 (Aug 15, 2005)

i think hughes might have better shot selection, but maybe he seems like he dominates the ball to me because he really isn't all that great a shooter.


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

Kitty said:


> Hughes dominated the offense? Come on man..if anything Gilbert was the one dominating the entire offense. I like Gilbert's game, but em....he is a chucker.


Gilbert did have his share on offense. However Huges was equally important and blossomed this year which I was very happy to see

yes the Wizards lost Huges but Butler isn't that bad, and Atkins is a spot up shooter

it might work, while unless LB is a crazy genius the Knicks will suffer another medicore/bad season again


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

anyone else think chicago is overrated? 

oh crap, i shouldna said that....now the 8903434 bull fans on this site will bash me.


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

PennyHardaway said:


> anyone else think chicago is overrated?
> 
> oh crap, i shouldna said that....now the 8903434 bull fans on this site will bash me.


how is chicago overrated

they have a great future as a team, good players in Hinrich, Gordon, Duhon, Deng, etc. 

they have a good coach and they just made it to the playoffs, and almost second round


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> while unless LB is a crazy genius the Knicks will suffer another medicore/bad season again


By the way LB is one of the best coaches in the league, and if you didn't know he changed the majority of all the teams he has ever coach...with the exception of the Nuggets which was earlier in his career. So what makes you think it will be any different with the Knicks? This team needs a motivator, and LB is just that type of coach to push the right buttons. With that said:

What do you consider medicore/bad season? Elaborate since you act like you know so much about the Knicks and you seem to post in here to analyze us ever chance you get.


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## kflint5 (Aug 15, 2005)

BIGsHOTBOY12345 said:


> What additions have the bucks had this year? The wizards getting Caron And the other player from the lakers for kwame brown was a big mistake. We have gotten many players that have defense, and that can shoot beyond the arch like QR, and david lee. Nate robinson also can drive in the lane so that is also a + side. The nets didnt get many additions and the fact that we were better last year until injuries to houston, and crawford for a short time hit us, we also got many additons in JJ and Frye to move into power forward helps us


The nets didn't need more additions, marc jackson is better than every center that we have and he might not even start. The buclks got the #1 pick in the draft Andrew Bogut. You make it sound as if frye and nate will help us out a lot (and they will) but the bogut will help the bucks more than they will help us. They also got bobby simmons, who will allow mason to slide back to the 6th man spot where he is better. Kwame Brown showed flashes of a good player but he is to head-casey and they have etan and haywood now instead. Hughes had a career year but i doubt he will put up close to those nubmers again. The Knicks could be good, but I think they will just miss the play-offs and make them the following year and make a strong run into the 2nd round (or better, who knows?)


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

i would say this the knicks being 10th is a possibility a real one but one that would have to be considered among the worst case scenerios.

there are a lot of factors that have been fixed that should add up to 10 wins even if many of the same situations that happened last season reoccurred.

for one the knicks had a substandard coaching situation.

lenny lost the team in jan. and herb got them playing hard again but as an interim coach he couldn't coach his sys. effectively , which meant almost every trip down ther floor was a pick and roll or basic post up, that is very easy to scout and defend.

now they have one of the best coaches in the nba. that is a significant difference especially considering how many games were lost in the final minutes.

healthwise the knicks were not very healthy allan houston played 26 games , leaving crawford to log way too many minutes at the 2 guard and it showed up on his defense. TT missed significant time and some of his healthy time he was garbage in large part due to off the court turmoil, and stephon had to log too many minutes coming off an offseason in which he got no rest and had knee trouble just about all season...that too showed up in his defense.

the knicks have added significant depth in Q and nate and ariza can fill in at the 2 more this season as he should have a bigger role this season, Q and ariza esoeially help the dpth as it will allow crawford to play the 1 more often whether or not LB goes through with switching their roster spots.

ther knicks center situation was horrible last season , with vin baker and nazr. that after the all star break became sweetney and essentially mo taylor with kurt sliding over from the power forward spot, making it 3 power forwards of limited physical stature playing out of position.

at least this season there is frye and jerome james who should be alot better if only because they are taller and shotblockers, but it surely wont be worse because they can always slide sweetney and mo back over which is how it was last season. 

sweetney should be a better player, he is still only 22 he will be playing mostly power forward and hopefully in better shape

bad things can happen , but its most likely the knicks will be alot better this year, in spite of improving eastern conference.


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

Kitty said:


> By the way LB is one of the best coaches in the league, and if you didn't know he changed the majority of all the teams he has ever coach...with the exception of the Nuggets which was earlier in his career. So what makes you think it will be any different with the Knicks? This team needs a motivator, and LB is just that type of coach to push the right buttons. With that said:
> 
> What do you consider medicore/bad season? Elaborate since you act like you know so much about the Knicks and you seem to post in here to analyze us ever chance you get.


hello, I don't believe I am posting in here every chance I get. So stop the personal attacks

The Knicks are a horrible team, they have been medicore, and they have been bad. I did not say LB cannot turn the Knicks around, but it's hard given the roster that the Knicks have. To me the Knicks have been horrible and if I were a Knicks fan I would be careful of any hopes come October, even when Larry Brown here.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

thanks for the insight *******


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## The_Black_Pinoy (Jul 6, 2005)

PennyHardaway said:


> thanks for the insight *******



Stay Classy PennyHardaway.


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

its always better to be an underdog than have expectations to live up to.......i think this makes the knicks better because we dont have a lot to lose with the expectations they have on us...not a lot of people have us going to the playoffs so when we do make it they'll be praising the knicks even more,...instead of bashing us


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> hello, I don't believe I am posting in here every chance I get. So stop the personal attacks
> 
> The Knicks are a horrible team, they have been medicore, and they have been bad. I did not say LB cannot turn the Knicks around, but it's hard given the roster that the Knicks have. To me the Knicks have been horrible and if I were a Knicks fan I would be careful of any hopes come October, even when Larry Brown here.


I will continue to post any way I please just as long as it is within the guidelines of the bbb.net. If it was a personal attack wouldn't you think the moderators would have edited all or most of my posts? I still think your explaination on the reason why you think we will have a mediocore and bad season is very vague to say the least. Repeating the words "bad season" and "mediocore" without giving a clear explanation why you feel that way just shows me that you don't even have a clue yourself why you feel that way. I'll be waiting when you decide to give valid points instead of rambling about "you're going to have a bad season I just know it". :wait:


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## The_Black_Pinoy (Jul 6, 2005)

Kitty said:


> Repeating the words "bad season" and "mediocore" without giving a clear explanation why you feel that way just shows me that you don't even have a clue yourself why you feel that way.



He is just making assumptions based on prior Knick performance, the general talent and make up of the team. I think he was fair with his analysis. That is not to say the Knicks are not going to be good next year, however it seems unlikely they are going to do anything significant with their current roster, even with the addition of LB, not this year at least.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i dont see what his point is in posting here just to say were horrible, terrible, mediocre, etc. whats the point? 

i dont go into the raptors forum and just bash their team or anything...i dont get it.


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

how am I bash your team? I am just deriving from my obersations from:

1. Knicks have not accomplished much for the last 3 years.

2. Knicks' roster is badly put together. I personally don't like having both Marbury and Crawford on the same roster. They are both shoot-first, undersized point/shooting guards

3. the Jerome James signing. Season has not started yet so we can't jump to conclusions but the amount of the money he got based on one playoff series was too much

4. Q-Rich is a steaky shooter who takes a lot of shots from 3 point lines


and Kitty I guess as long as the moderaters tell you what to do everything is fine? You resorted to personal attack rather than telling me why you think the team is not "medicore" or "bad"


I would be bashing your team there were no legitmate concerns regarding the Knicks, OK?


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

nothing you said we havent heard before.

1. We made the playoffs the season before last.
2. Marbury is shoot first? 15 shots per game, 8 assists....whats the ratio?
3. Adonal foyle got around 20 million more. go tell warrior fans about it.
4. thats how phoenix played. Q wants to play inside more now.

regardless,what is your purpose??? i dont get that.


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## The_Black_Pinoy (Jul 6, 2005)

PennyHardaway said:


> i dont see what his point is in posting here just to say were horrible, terrible, mediocre, etc. whats the point?
> 
> i dont go into the raptors forum and just bash their team or anything...i dont get it.


Bashing is just coming in here and saying those things with no reasoning behind them, and leaving like a coward. If an Individual says they feel a certain way about a team and back it up with substantial points, then I do see a point, it is called a debate. Debates are what make these forums so alive and rich. Not everyone has to praise the team just to post in their respective forums, we are all entitled to our own thoughts and opinions and do not have to be attacked personally for stating them.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

so whats the debate?

"unless LB is a crazy genius the Knicks will suffer another medicore/bad season again"

those are some great reasons. then his last post offered nothing except telling me that Q is streaky, marbury and jamal are similar, and that jerome james is overpaid.

ive been on these forums for like 2 years, i know what a debate is, smart ***.


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## The_Black_Pinoy (Jul 6, 2005)

PennyHardaway said:


> ive been on these forums for like 2 years, i know what a debate is, smart ***.



It really does not seem like you do. He is saying that the knicks will not be a playoff team for various reason, you are questioning the reasoning behind his posting. Instead of questioning why he is posting you should try to prove him wrong.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

*That is enough bickering about nothing

Stay on topic or the thread will be closed*


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## The_Black_Pinoy (Jul 6, 2005)

I really could care less if this thread is closed or not. I just hate when people place personal attacks on other people just because they have a different opinion of someone else's team.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

The_Black_Pinoy said:


> I really could care less if this thread is closed or not. I just hate when people place personal attacks on other people just because they have a different opinion of someone else's team.


There were no personal attacks in this thread


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

Sorry Cpaw, but I just can't stand when folks coming in here bashing our team and not staying on topic. My apologies...


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

The_Black_Pinoy said:


> It really does not seem like you do. He is saying that the knicks will not be a playoff team for various reason, you are questioning the reasoning behind his posting. Instead of questioning why he is posting you should try to prove him wrong.


he doesnt have any good reasons.i dont think the knicks are a great team, but i have better reasons then him. how does signing jerome james make us worse?

and are you his lawyer? if it doesnt concern you, dont get into it. stop tryna be a vigilante moderator.you aint gon get the job.


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## The_Black_Pinoy (Jul 6, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> There were no personal attacks in this thread




How about when Penny said "thanks for the insight *******" While not as sever as most cases, name-calling is still a personal attack regarding someone’s character. Then again I could be mistaken if he was talking to writes of ESPN, It all based on how you feel towards the words of another persons posts.


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## The_Black_Pinoy (Jul 6, 2005)

PennyHardaway said:


> stop tryna be a vigilante moderator.you aint gon get the job.


lol.


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## The_Black_Pinoy (Jul 6, 2005)

PennyHardaway said:


> and are you his lawyer?


Nope I Just did not like your posts, It has nothing to do with him.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> and Kitty I guess as long as the moderaters tell you what to do everything is fine? You resorted to personal attack rather than telling me why you think the team is not "medicore" or "bad"
> 
> 
> I would be bashing your team there were no legitmate concerns regarding the Knicks, OK?


 :topic: Cry me a River! :boohoo:


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

thats why us new york fans are greater then the rest

yeppppp!!!!!!!!:yes:


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I've gone through the thread and i've come to some conclusions.

Godwade if you aren't a troll you are at least looking like one, your 1st 2 or 3 posts on this thread were far from insightful, but they were very negative , basically were the type that trolls use to incite people. In which you choose to highlight others teams chances while downgrading the knicks , based on what are basically cliches and unsubstatianted opinions(for instance Jerome james is a reason to downgrade the knicks chances but somehow chucky atkins is a positive for the wizards?),heard alot of other times, and are nothing more than opinions gleemed off of past knick teams and assumptions without any kind of proof on the future .

Kitty I 100% agree with you.

Penny you have gone over the line . But i see your point.

the black pinoy , at this site we concentrate on the posts not the posters , you have done nothing but basically zero in on penny , its somewhat ironic that your problem with penny , you have essentially repeated on penny.

its also not the best way to make your stance known.

now i hope we can all go back on topic...and stay away from the things that caused this thread in the 1st place.


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## djtoneblaze (Nov 22, 2004)

Frye is going to be better than Bogut, by the way.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

Not likely.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

djtoneblaze said:


> Frye is going to be better than Bogut, by the way.


Frye is going to be a power foward


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## Truknicksfan (Mar 25, 2005)

> Frye is going to be better than Bogut, by the way.


 Doubt it bud. But we all have dreams :biggrin:


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## reganomics813 (Sep 2, 2005)

I think the ranking is fair because the additions the Knicks made are unproven and some even seem like ones that'll be in LB's doghouse quicker than quick. I mean Isiah traded away one of his most stable players in Thomas for a shooter and a rookie. Quentin and Jerome are 2 players who will have to come in and prove alot to Brown or their minutes are gonna decline while hustle guys who play D get the time. Crawford and Thomas will have to show that they can play good team basketball. They also have 3 rookies who LB has a penchant for not playing them much like Pat Riley before him. The good news is that the kids Isiah brought in are scrappy kids who are talented enough to work their ways into the rotation possibly freeing up some other desireable players for a midseason trade to address any weakenesses and make a stong second half push. I really wouldn't be suprized to see Rose in the starting lineup along because of his stability. LB will be the best thing for Stephon and really mold him into a winning player and that's really the key to this team's sucess. It's alot of ifs and maybes when it even comes to rotations and roster spots so 10 isn't bad but depending on chemistry they could be a few spots higher. Especially because the teams above them have alot of ifs and maybes as well.


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