# Am I the only one here who thinks..



## Tupav (Jun 17, 2006)

That chris bosh shouldn't be the "go to guy".. Like the franchise player on raptors?

I dont think he's really good enough and he's usually out of control.. It looks as if everything he does is a fluke...


Dont get me wrong, i like him and all.. But I think raptors need another All Star on the team and he could be the 2nd or 3rd option..


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## EvilRedSquirrel (Jul 5, 2003)

[strike]Yeah, your basically stupid.[/strike]


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

Chris is youngm and for the most part of his career he has always had a chucker on his team, this year he doesnt, this team is truly built around him, especially with the coming of TJ Ford, this is the year Bosh proves himself, and shows us whether he is the go to guy or not, every year he has had the spotlight shun off of him at crunch time, and it was either Jalen or Mike James taking the big shots, this year it will be Bosh, and remember he is only 22. So give him team to develop that mental toughness that he needs to have to be the man.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Chris has still got a long way to go, but he has it in him. I think we've seen more evidence that he can be 'the man' than we have to the contrary in the last three years.

Regardless, we're adding pieces like Ford and Bargnani, all-star potential guys, because one all-star isn't enough no matter how talented the guy is.

I know it's hard to be patient, but what is Chris, 22, 23 years old? He's several years away from his prime and look what he's capable of _now_. There is plenty of reason to be excited over this guy.


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## Tupav (Jun 17, 2006)

EvilRedSquirrel said:


> Yeah, your basically stupid.


[strike]Shut up u ******.. Ur an idiot[/strike] and dont know what you supporting, Chris bosh is overated, He didnt do anything to prove that he should be a franchise player.. It was forced on him when VC left

And the reason Chris bosh doesnt get the ball in crunch time, Cuz he has no handles and does ugly moves and is out of control


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

some guys are just not clutch.

I see Bosh becoming more of a garnett. He might be an amazing player and can maybe even be the franchise player where the team is built around, but that doesn't mean he has to be the player with the ball in his hands in the last seconds of the game.


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

Bosh will continue to improve and will be a better version of garnett. Hes a young player who averaged 20/9 last season and those numbers will increase. Hes entering his fourth year with a solid supporting cast, so wait to see wat he does this year with better players around him.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

bosh better than KG??????


I can only hope he reaches his level

KG is hof material, I wouldn't be so quick to say that about bosh


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## TORONTO (Jul 2, 2006)

I am a troll.


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

TORONTO said:


> I also dont see Bosh as our franchise player. Yes hes good and all but even last season he had missed many last second shots which couldve changed the games for us, also he struggles down the stretch. He gets outta control with the ball and tries to do too much which hurts us alot. He had 20/9 last season on a team where he was the primary option and i'm suprised he didnt avg. more then 20ppg.
> We do need another player who is an All-Star calibre and take the pressure off Bosh.


ummm...have u heard of this Guy names Mike James? He avged 20 ppg as well, and Mo avged like 16.8 We had very balanced scoring last season. As for the last second shots, that will come with time, as he learns to just go out and play his game in crunch time, and not worry about what will happen if he misses the shot.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

Dee-Zy said:


> bosh better than KG??????
> 
> 
> I can only hope he reaches his level
> ...


at 21/22: (per game)

*Bosh KG​*Points:​*22.5* 20.8​Rebounds:​9.2 *10.4*​Assists:​2.6 *4.3*​Blocks:​1.13 *1.77*​Steals:​.71 *1.66*​FG%:​*51%* 46%​FT%:​*82%* 70%​Minutes:​*39.3* 37.9​

Bosh is the better more efficient all around scorer while KG is a better rebounder, shot blocker, "stealer" and passer.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

TORONTO said:


> *I also dont see Bosh as our franchise player*. Yes hes good and all but even last season he had missed many last second shots which couldve changed the games for us, also he struggles down the stretch. *He gets outta control with the ball and tries to do too much which hurts us alot.* * He had 20/9 last season* on a team where he was the primary option and i'm suprised *he didnt avg. more then 20ppg. *
> We do need another player who is an All-Star calibre and take the pressure off Bosh.


noob
the bolded parts are false


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## Tupav (Jun 17, 2006)

pmac34 said:


> noob
> the bolded parts are false


Have you ever watched a raptors game? Do you not notice how many times a game he loses the ball dribbling off of his knees? How many times did he drive to the basket outta control, Shoot and hit the backboard with no rim? And I can never trust him shooting a jumpshot, He's like joey graham, You don't know if its going in till the last second. 

Chris Bosh, I like him and all, But y'all need to stop gassing him up like he's the raptors only hope, Look how he's doing on the USA team, garbage, I actually think Chris Bosh is basically in his prime right now and won't really get alot better than he is right now.


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## junkyarddawgg (Mar 24, 2005)

I think you're being a rather harsh. Sure he bobbles the ball once in a while because he tries to do too much, but let's not forget that he's a big man... A big man with good handles for his size. Inevitably, he risks losing the ball everytime he puts it on the floor, but it's a risk that I'll happily let Bosh take. For all the times he dribbled the ball off his leg or lost the ball, there are all the times he's faced up the opposing big man and drove by him with a little between the legs dribble or the quick first step/dribble.

I do not agree with your opinion that Bosh is usually "out of control", nor do I think that his jumpshot is untrustworthy. It is my belief that Bosh's jumpshot shows good form, and he has demonstrated that he can make the 18-19 ft jumper with consistency. I also think that Bosh plays a "disciplined" brand of basketball, one that consists of making smart decisions and taking calculated risks (except for those times when he has to bail out the team with an out-of-range J or a rushed inside shot). It is easy to see that Bosh does make an effort of play under control, because you can just compare his play with Jalen Rose's or Mike James from yesteryears (heck, remember how out of control Milt Palacio was back then with the Raps?).

Anyways, just my two cents.


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## wind161 (Jun 19, 2005)

Tupav said:


> Have you ever watched a raptors game? Do you not notice how many times a game he loses the ball dribbling off of his knees? How many times did he drive to the basket outta control, Shoot and hit the backboard with no rim? And I can never trust him shooting a jumpshot, He's like joey graham, You don't know if its going in till the last second.


I see it too. But that's why people improve. Look at Karl Malone man. People wrote him off as a one trick pony. He will make HoF on first eligibility. 



Tupav said:


> Chris Bosh, I like him and all, But y'all need to stop gassing him up like he's the raptors only hope, Look how he's doing on the USA team, garbage, I actually think Chris Bosh is basically in his* prime right now * and won't really get alot better than he is right now.


This where I have to disagree. How can you say someone that's 22 is in their prime? I don't know why you would say that. It has even been scientifically proven that a person does not reach physical maturity until at least 26 years old. Ask your biology prof. 

You just discredited yourself.


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## re-run (Nov 28, 2003)

Tupav said:


> Chris Bosh, I like him and all, But y'all need to stop gassing him up like he's the raptors only hope, <B>Look how he's doing on the USA team, garbage</B>, I actually think Chris Bosh is basically in his prime right now and won't really get alot better than he is right now.



I dont mean for the bashing of your opinion to go on but....

I dont think CB's performance has nothing to do with how significant he is and should be for the raptors. His role on that team is completely different than his role on the raptors..with players like lebron carmelo arenas & wade, bosh would definately not be a prime scorere, something that he is used to..That's why a player such as Dwight Howard will thrive better on the US team than bosh will, because he hasnt always been the number one option but he has always been the man that they depend on for rebounding....

it is difficult for the majority of the players to be as good as tehy are on they're national team as they re on their professional team


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Bosh had 10 points in 11 minutes, 4/5 FG, 1/2 3pt FG and went 2/3 at the line I think, in Team USA's last match.

pretty good if you ask me, only downside is that he had 0 rebounds.


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## firstrounder (Oct 31, 2004)

I dont post much, but I had to get in on this.

Tupav, I don't know what to say...

I strongly disagree with you when you say he should be our "2nd or 3rd option"

Like, c'mon man.

3rd?????


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

sure let's get another all-star on this team.....phoof "oh look, there he is. wasn't that easy?"


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

pmac34 said:


> noob
> the bolded parts are false


 wth. You're a noob. How are you gonna say an opinion is false?

Anyways, just my opinion but I think Chris is a fine prospect as a franchise player. He can score, rebound and brings a lot of intangibles to the table (except for defense at this point, unfortunately). I do agree however that he doesn't have to be the #1 option on offense but we don't necessarily need a star to fill that void. Just someone who can be a go to guy in the clutch while Chris learns to find that "killer instinct" (so basicly a 6'7 Mike James). Chris is still a fine talent and there are only a couple handfuls of guys that I'd trade him for.


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## neltron3030 (Jun 30, 2006)

EvilRedSquirrel said:


> [strike]Yeah, your basically stupid.[/strike]


You're basically stupid. Learn your ABC's before you post.


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## TORONTO (Jul 2, 2006)

I am a troll.


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## neltron3030 (Jun 30, 2006)

Let's not forget that the league's most clutch players (e.g. D. Wade, Kobe, Nash, Duncan, etc.) are also some of the highest turnover players too.


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## TORONTO (Jul 2, 2006)

I am a troll.


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## TORONTO (Jul 2, 2006)

I am a troll.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

It's impossible to be clutch when you are a PF on a team that loses 2x more than it wins and has a chucker playing point guard.

Lot's of "clutch" players miss lots of "clutch shots". You get the reputation based in large part on the number of opportunities you get to make clutch shots. Game winning shots are remembered. Plus you need to get a few opps under your belt before you get comfortable with them.

Bosh is not yet clutch, but he is certainly not "choke". He will get a few more opps this year, with a passing PG and hopefully something close to a .500 record.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

Who the hell should be the Raptors franchise player then?


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## Flush (Jul 25, 2005)

Ok where to begin....

Chris Bosh is one of the most talented, athletic and versatile power forwards in the NBA. His *ONE* fault is that he has struggled in the clutch, but I believe that was a recent phenomenon to be blamed on mike james.

James was such a ball hog and chucker towards the end of games that everyone else lost their rhythm. Especially our young star. Many of Bosh's touches in the clutch were because MJ couldn't get his shot off and just dumped the ball to him outside of the offense and Bosh had to create his own shot often with little time left on the clock.

And to those of you that feel that Bosh is turnover prone consider these points; Bosh significantly reduced his turnovers this season despite playing fewer games and getting more touches per game.

Since people want to compare Bosh to garnett consider that Bosh avg'd 2.24 TO's per game this year. The only season Garnett averaged less was his rookie year where he only played 28 minutes a game and had very few touches. Tim Duncan? Only averaged less that 2.24 once in his career and in his 3rd year avg'd a full 1.03 more per game than Bosh.

Bosh's FG% this season is identical to Duncan's career % and Garnett has only Avg'd higher than 50.5 once in his career.

The most important point is that the kid is barely 22 years old and already a premier PF. Once some of the players begin to develop around him Bosh will only flourish. Keep in mind that he was able to put up these numbers with very few other threats around him. He was always the focus of opposing defenses. Facing several double teams etc.

3rd option? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

TORONTO said:


> Also I know this is off topic but can someone explain to me why are the Raptors fans on this board so excited about the team BC has built for next season? He has put together a bunch of international players who have yet to play a single NBA game and everyone is talking about how much depth we have.


I'd like you to compare the rosters from the past 3 seasons to the one now. The majority of the roster may contain a surpluls of unknowns (which is obvious since there are 3 people the roster from last season, and 2 who have played together for multiple years) but you can not say this team overall does not have more talent the the past 3 seasons.

Unknowns, yes. But a talented unknown still has talent.



TORONTO said:


> Like c'mon the only decent signing we have done is Fred Jones who I think will be amazing in the Raptors system. But other then that theres no one really who can be guaranteed to have a good season. With all the money he spent on the international market he couldve signed proved NBA vets and we wouldve been much better. Though one of the primary reasons I think BC got these international players was simply because of marketing issues and to make some profit off them. It was all a financial strategy BC used so we would get more ticket sales since we have all these Europeans.


OK<sup>TM</sup>


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

I remember other raptors fans saw this as well... But can anyone remember during the playoffs. It showed a stat as to who the top fg% players were in the final two minutes of games this past season... #1... Lebron James. tied for #2.... Geuss who??? Chris Bosh.

I have no idea where this would be found. But I am positive I saw that stat.

I mean stats don't tell the whole story. But he apparently did a pretty good job of converting the shots he did get up in the last minutes of the game this year.

-lata


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

ColinBeehler said:


> I remember other raptors fans saw this as well... But can anyone remember during the playoffs. It showed a stat as to who the top fg% players were in the final two minutes of games this past season... #1... Lebron James. tied for #2.... Geuss who??? Chris Bosh.
> 
> I have no idea where this would be found. But I am positive I saw that stat.
> 
> ...


it was taken from 82games.com. I'd post it up myself, but I can never figure out how to properly use that site. Also, I believe that ranking was from 2 years ago, so it's moot to how Bosh has performed in the clutch this past season.

EDIT: Did some searching, and found this:
http://www.82games.com/clutchplayers.htm


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

I saw it in this years playoffs I am sure of it... Maybe 82games.com didn't do an article on it this time.. But, I am sure I saw it while watching a Cleveland game.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

neoxsupreme said:


> Who the hell should be the Raptors franchise player then?


 :clap: :cheers:


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

trick said:


> it was taken from 82games.com. I'd post it up myself, but I can never figure out how to properly use that site. Also, I believe that ranking was from 2 years ago, so it's moot to how Bosh has performed in the clutch this past season.
> 
> EDIT: Did some searching, and found this:
> http://www.82games.com/clutchplayers.htm


Well the article is a year old (when Marshall still played for the Raps)
And the only time Bosh showed up in the article was too show that he passed off the most cluth situations and shot much less, shying from the clutch situation.
Bosh is a great player, but I don't know how far I'd go to say that he's cluth. Not yet. He lost the ball countless times in the last minute and shot the ball from just below the arc.
Slowly as the year progressed, he started attacking the rim with much more will and strenght. He will become clutch, but he's not clutch, not just yet. And I can't see him being #2 in clutch scoring last year behind Lebron. That's just my opinion.


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## junkyarddawgg (Mar 24, 2005)

ColinBeehler said:


> I remember other raptors fans saw this as well... But can anyone remember during the playoffs. It showed a stat as to who the top fg% players were in the final two minutes of games this past season... #1... Lebron James. tied for #2.... Geuss who??? Chris Bosh.
> 
> I have no idea where this would be found. But I am positive I saw that stat.
> 
> ...


I saw that stat too, I think it was during the LAL-PHO series that they showed that list, and in my memory, Bosh was like 6th or 5th... It was, if i'm not mistaken, the top 10 FG% in the last 2 mins of a game.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Tupav said:


> Have you ever watched a raptors game? Do you not notice how many times a game he loses the ball dribbling off of his knees? How many times did he drive to the basket outta control, Shoot and hit the backboard with no rim? And I can never trust him shooting a jumpshot, He's like joey graham, You don't know if its going in till the last second.


Which is why he shot 51%... rolleyes.


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## Tupav (Jun 17, 2006)

^ Yea he runs in 10 times, off the backboard with no rim 5 times.. and the other times he drives he loses the ball off his knees

The rest of his points are freethrows


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Tupav said:


> ^ Yea he runs in 10 times, off the backboard with no rim 5 times.. and the other times he drives he loses the ball off his knees
> 
> The rest of his points are freethrows


Which is why his turnovers are not above average.... more rolleyes...


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Is Bosh good enough to be the go to guy on a championshop team know? Certainly no.

But he could grow into it.


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

Tupav said:


> ^ Yea he runs in 10 times, off the backboard with no rim 5 times.. and the other times he drives he loses the ball off his knees
> 
> The rest of his points are freethrows


Buddy, come tell me chris bosh shouldnt be the #1 option when u actually watch a raptors game.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Turnovers:
Bosh commits less turnovers per game than Gasol, Howard, J. O'Neal, Duncan, Webber, and Garnett.​
Bad Shots:

Bosh has the 23rd highest field goal percentage in the NBA, 11th among forwards. Only two bigs average as many or more points on better shooting (Brand and Garnett, nice company!).​
Fouls:

Bosh was 8th in the NBA in free throw attempts per game, *first* overall among all non-guards. His 82% free throw shooting percentage makes him one of the best big men in that category.​


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## TORONTO (Jul 2, 2006)

I am a troll.


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## tobybennett (Jun 12, 2003)

Bosh was an all-star last year. He is playing on team usa right now. He is already at least a top 20 player in the NBA. This is the first season he will actually have decent talent surrounding him, so let's see what he can do. He should be able to carry this team to the playoffs to be considered a success.


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## Flush (Jul 25, 2005)

TORONTO said:


> Ok.... ya he shot 51%, but when it was time he needed to make the clutch shots he MISSED. He plays good when theres a lot of time remaining in a game but when he comes down to crunch time thats what we talking about and he struggles. Same thing goes to ur dumb turnover comment you made.


He had a higher percentage in the clutch than Garnett and Duncan. That means in the last 5 minutes of close games and in overtime. 

As for the 'dumb turnover comment' he had 14 turnovers ALL SEASON in clutch situations. 10 ball handling, 2 passes and 2 fouls.

Mike james...everyones favorite clutch player had 15. Duncan had 15. Dirk had 9. Even Nash had 12

His numbers aren't great in the clutch, but they certainly aren't as bad as you two make them out to be. Keep mind that his clutch numbers went DOWN this season. And as i said before, I blame that in large part to Mike James who often dumped the ball to Bosh when he couldn't force up his own shot. These passes would come outside of the offensive set with little time left on the clock. You want proof...here:

48% of his clutch shots were taken with 8 seconds or less on the 24 second clock. And of those 48% he made 34.6% which goes to show the quality of shots he was forced to take.

The remaining 52% taken between 0 and 15 seconds on the clock he shot around 50%....his avg for the season. A very good number. 

You two have made the same points over and over without any facts or numbers to support it. Well here are the ACTUAL stats...and they aren't that bad.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Flush said:


> He had a higher percentage in the clutch than Garnett and Duncan. That means in the last 5 minutes of close games and in overtime.
> 
> As for the 'dumb turnover comment' he had 14 turnovers ALL SEASON in clutch situations. 10 ball handling, 2 passes and 2 fouls.
> 
> ...



Nice post Flush....lets put this argument to rest!


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Flush said:


> He had a higher percentage in the clutch than Garnett and Duncan. That means in the last 5 minutes of close games and in overtime.
> 
> As for the 'dumb turnover comment' he had 14 turnovers ALL SEASON in clutch situations. 10 ball handling, 2 passes and 2 fouls.
> 
> ...


Facts...TORONTO and Tupav's greatest weakness. HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Seriously though, I can remember vivdly some of the clutch moments Bosh has had during his career thus far. One was from the Houston game during his rookie year. Another was a Seattle tip in to get into overtime. Thirdly was during a Portland game that was shown in Raptors Game In An Hour yesterday, against Theo Ratliff to give the Raptors the lead with 22+ seconds left. If anyone were to go through each game Bosh has played in, there will be more times in which he performed well in the clutch and aboslutely flopped.

Just because Bosh is not perfect in the clutch doesn't mean he's unreliable during the stretch. He has proven he can make _that_ shot.

Note: No one on the pro-Bosh camp is saying he's Jordan-esque in the clutchness. I didn't think this has to be pointed out, but hey, you never know how opposing sides would take it.


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## MORRISON3 (Aug 6, 2006)

Tupav said:


> [strike]Shut up u ******.. Ur an idiot[/strike] and dont know what you supporting, Chris bosh is overated, He didnt do anything to prove that he should be a franchise player.. It was forced on him when VC left
> 
> And the reason Chris bosh doesnt get the ball in crunch time, Cuz he has no handles and does ugly moves and is out of control



GO GET'EM! :clap:


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## Tupav (Jun 17, 2006)

MORRISON3 said:


> GO GET'EM! :clap:


Thanks for the support man, Im going to get em

And i just watched the portland game (raptors rewind), what a horrible 3 point shot by him

WHATS HE DOING OUT ON THE PERIMETER, :thinking: 

I woulda dropped that shot though


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

mike james did a horrible little drive and kick to bosh.. who was forced to get a three pointer off with a check right near him and no time to get set. good job of clearing out and giving james the lane bosh... horrible drive and decision mike james.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

Tupav said:


> Shut up u ******.. Ur an idiot and dont know what you supporting, Chris bosh is overated, He didnt do anything to prove that he should be a franchise player.. It was forced on him when VC left


 why the **** do you post here


edit:
[strike]mods, can i start a "Tupav is the worst poster ever" club in my sig?[/strike]

no, you can't, learn to use the ignore list. speedy.


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## Tupav (Jun 17, 2006)

Your 14, probably younger even

Go play with some pokemon cards *edited*


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## Tupav (Jun 17, 2006)

And Pmac, I just looked at your profile which proves your a dumb-***


Birthday:
March 19, 1992 
Location:
windsor (basically detroit, just canada) 
Occupation:
Grade 8 
Favorite Teams:
Toronto, Miami 
Favorite Players:
Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Kobe 
Interests:
Basketball, Rap 




*Occupation: Grade 8*

LMAO
:clown:


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

Dee-Zy said:


> bosh better than KG??????
> 
> 
> I can only hope he reaches his level
> ...


KG is just a stats stuffer


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## wind161 (Jun 19, 2005)

Tupav said:


> And Pmac, I just looked at your profile which proves your a dumb-***
> 
> 
> Birthday:
> ...


 mod, shouldn't this and the above post get him banned?

this feels like some gr.10 highschool bully, who failed 3 yr, bullying gr.9 kids. pathetic.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

wind161 said:


> mod, shouldn't this and the above post get him banned?
> 
> this feels like some gr.10 highschool bully, who failed 3 yr, bullying gr.9 kids. pathetic.


i agree.. rep for you


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## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

Tupav said:


> Your 14, probably younger even
> 
> Go play with some pokemon cards u stupid *******, Gay windsor ****


Whoa, whoa, whoa, chill man. What do you got against 14 yr olds?


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## MjM2xtreMe (Sep 1, 2005)

Seriously tupav, why dont you provide some facts...ColinB did and you did not rebutt on his posts. Instead you make fun of Pmac's profile. Are you trying to be the next MonsterBosh or something?


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## TORONTO (Jul 2, 2006)

I am a troll.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

TORONTO said:


> Tell em to get real facts first before showing his **** love towards Bosh.


page 1, read my post


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## junkyarddawgg (Mar 24, 2005)

Allright children, let's calm down here. Let's try to stick to the subject, which I find honestly very interesting. 

Flush offered up a wonderful post detailing Bosh's efficiency based on the possessions where he's had to take a last ditch shot, and possessions where he's had time to operate. I'd be curious to see how one could rebute this argument. Not an easy task, but not entirely impossible.

Any takers?


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## Tupav (Jun 17, 2006)

[strike]You all are a bunch of losers who act so serious, you all are a bunch of homosexuals and are *****s[/strike]

I dont care if you ban me from this site, [strike]go suck some big haiiry *****[/strike] .. i put the stars there myself but i think u know the term

And I was just saying, Facts are only Facts, But you know that Bosh's impact on the game isn't in my opinion, Hes not what i can say is a difference maker, I truely believe that bosh cant take over a game and dominate, he's dropped like over 30 once or twice in his life, Hes not that good defensivly so what he does on that end of the court wouldnt be dominate.. Im not looking for stats and everything, but im sure if you arent blinded while riding chris bosh's weener, you can see that he looks uncomfortable with the ball and out of control as soon as he gets it

Just look at the games he played with US, he looks like he is scared and just trying to get rid of the ball

My main point isn't if chris bosh is a clutch player or not, I just don't like the raptors RUNNING ISOLATONS FOR HIM AS IF HE IS OUR SAVIOR AND ONLY CHANCE

OKAY, IM SURE THERE ARE A MILLION PEOPLE WHO WOULD AGREE WITH WHAT I TYPED IN CAPS.

OK PEACE OUT and PMAC im done with you, it seems as if you kissed enough [strike]a-ss[/strike] here and have the board watching over you like a father

EZ


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

/\/\/\

You just need to learn to defend yourself without calling people homos.

I think Bosh will get to be a better clutch player throughout his career, so there's still room for improvement and plenty of time.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

You could say that John Paxson and Steve Kerr were clutch....but a team would never be built around them. Bosh as young as he is, is already showing that he has the skills to become a very good player in late game situations. His free throw pecentage alone in enough to let him have the ball in his hands late in the game....a bigman who shoots over 80% is a great asset.

Lets remember he has only played 3 seasons in the NBA.....he has 10 or more solid years left to become money in crunch time.


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## Kahlon66 (Jun 17, 2005)

lol, i kinda agree with Tupav that Bosh is a bit too OVERATED in this forum. Don't get me wrong, Bosh is an all-star player, but some people have him on a MVP-type pedestal which I don't think he is. Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Garnett, Howard, Amare are all players that i would easily take over bosh. Bosh also does seem like a guy who is scared when he has the ball at clutch times.


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

Kahlon66 said:


> lol, i kinda agree with Tupav that Bosh is a bit too OVERATED in this forum. Don't get me wrong, Bosh is an all-star player, but some people have him on a MVP-type pedestal which I don't think he is. Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Garnett, Howard, Amare are all players that i would easily take over bosh. Bosh also does seem like a guy who is scared when he has the ball at clutch times.


not trying to be a smartass but... i dont really think anyone is meaning that Bosh is a god in the clutch. Just that he is a damn good young player, his quicks, length, range and work ethic will be enough in our opinion's to push him to that "go-to-guy" level.



trick said:


> Just because Bosh is not perfect in the clutch doesn't mean he's unreliable during the stretch. He has proven he can make _that_ shot.
> 
> Note: No one on the pro-Bosh camp is saying he's Jordan-esque in the clutchness. I didn't think this has to be pointed out, but hey, you never know how opposing sides would take it.


P.S. As a T-Rap's fan... I'd currently take, Lebron, Howard and... pretty much no one else. To build a team long term with before I would take Bosh. Dirk, Garnett, Wade, Kobe and Amare(when healthy) may be better now. But I think Bosh's youth (I know Wade is young too.. I'll get to that), and his position, make it easier to build a team around him then the other players I mentioned. I do love Wade too. But I think Bosh has a chance to have a huuuge impact on the league as well. He is only 22. He has lots of years to grow...

-lata


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Kahlon66 said:


> lol, i kinda agree with Tupav that Bosh is a bit too OVERATED in this forum. Don't get me wrong, Bosh is an all-star player, but some people have him on a MVP-type pedestal which I don't think he is. Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Garnett, Howard, Amare are all players that i would easily take over bosh. Bosh also does seem like a guy who is scared when he has the ball at clutch times.


Who the heck has him on an MVP-type pedestal? Provide some proof...


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

If you have an unpopular opinion, and you "boldly" state it on an internet message board (or in any public forum), you should expect to have to defend it. Isn't that the point?

If you cannot do that in a mature fashion your opinion will be (at best) ignored.

Please keep this in mind when you are posting on this site.


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## Flush (Jul 25, 2005)

Tupav said:


> I truely believe that bosh cant take over a game and dominate, he's dropped like over 30 once or twice in his life, Hes not that good defensivly so what he does on that end of the court wouldnt be dominate.


Very good rebutle point. I'm not sure of the exact stat, but you are right he hasn't taken over a game single handedly. He has been VERY good and done so consistantly, but he hasn't been great other than a few flashes. 

Don't take it so personally. This board is designed to DISCUSS all matters Raptor. Whatever the point expect a counter point. Did you honestly not expect people to argue with you when you started bashing Bosh? Use facts and stats to support your opinions, and don't resort to personal attacks, if anyone does it to you (and they did) just add them to your ignore list.


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## The Raptor (Aug 15, 2006)

Tupav said:


> [strike]You all are a bunch of losers who act so serious, you all are a bunch of homosexuals and are *****s[/strike]
> 
> I dont care if you ban me from this site, [strike]go suck some big haiiry *****[/strike] .. i put the stars there myself but i think u know the term
> 
> ...


:rotf::rofl:
that was too funny!!!


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## swurv (Feb 26, 2005)

I liked the statistical breakdown. It was informative and provided a factual basis to any future considerations in this conversation. 

So taking it into account, I see why it can be said Bosh is no slouch in crunch time. Conversely, there is something to be said for 'gut' feelings about a player. Body language, situational awareness, and team success are integral to being considered a 'clutch' player. These are things that may not show up in the stats. But they are things that affect how a player is percieved to be in the clutch. For instance the accusations of looking 'scared with the ball' are clearly indicative of an opinion based upon body language. But to say one looks 'scared' is a wholly objective opinion. I, for one, do not see this. I see a methodical and fundamentally sound player, who used pump fakes, fouls, and post up spin/dribble-hook or jumpers and smart passes to create the best opportunities to see team success. Its in the eye of the beholder. 
And out of all the players in the NBA, he is an All star and on team USA, so I guess others see what I'm seeing. Silence trolls, or come with something more.


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## junkyarddawgg (Mar 24, 2005)

swurv said:


> I But to say one looks 'scared' is a wholly objective opinion.


Don't you mean _subjective_?

Tupav did bring a good point about Bosh rarely dropping more than 30 points on an opponent. After all, his first point wasn't only about Bosh being a clutch player, but being a cornerstone for the franchise. In this respect, it is true that Bosh looks to be more of a "2nd fiddle" kind of player, since he's never really dominated that much for long stretches. Of course, he's been unstoppable a few times (I remember one Charlotte game where nobody could stop him... but hen again, Okafor was injured, and there was only Sean May and some other player left to defend him), but he hasn't done so with consistency. Then again, he's still so young (22 or so)... Players rarely can dominate at that age. No one ever said Bosh was HoF, so I'm not expecting him to dominate... yet. I will however admit that I'm not 100% sure that Bosh will be able to become that dominating presence/franchise bearier we all hope he will be.


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## tobybennett (Jun 12, 2003)

Keep in mind, Bosh has played for one of the worst teams in the NBA for his whole career thus far. This season is crucial and it will be important to see if Bosh can take that next step to a superstar, and lead this team to the playoffs. The only thing I care about with Bosh is if he can be the centerpiece of a winning, and with the pieces Colangelo has put around Bosh, he really doesn't have any excuses for another losing season. In terms of winning, Bosh really hasn't proved anything yet, but I think most GM's would take Bosh as a foundation for a rebuilding team.


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

junkyarddawgg said:


> Don't you mean _subjective_?
> 
> Tupav did bring a good point about Bosh rarely dropping more than 30 points on an opponent. After all, his first point wasn't only about Bosh being a clutch player, but being a cornerstone for the franchise. In this respect, it is true that Bosh looks to be more of a "2nd fiddle" kind of player, since he's never really dominated that much for long stretches. Of course, he's been unstoppable a few times (I remember one Charlotte game where nobody could stop him... but hen again, Okafor was injured, and there was only Sean May and some other player left to defend him), but he hasn't done so with consistency. Then again, he's still so young (22 or so)... Players rarely can dominate at that age. No one ever said Bosh was HoF, so I'm not expecting him to dominate... yet. I will however admit that I'm not 100% sure that Bosh will be able to become that dominating presence/franchise bearier we all hope he will be.


i think you have the idea of a franchise player all screwed up in your head, your still thinking VC, dropping 30/40/50 points on opponents. Big Bosh is a big man, for him to drop 30+ points regularly it would mean that he would have to make about 12 shots a night and go to the line about 7-8 times, and taking Bosh's 50% clip that would be he would have to take 24 shots in a night, which he RARELY ever got because of Mike James, Rafer the year before, Jalen Rose MoPete Charlie all taking shots away from him, because they all have scorers mentalities. and Bosh doesnt have a consistent 3 point shot, my point is, big man RARELY go off on their opponents for 30 points a night, unless your name is Shaq, or Amare and have a PG like Nash getting u open dunks/layups all night long. This year Bosh has his Nash, and now see what he does, and put ur "Bosh isnt a great player" problems to rest.


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## swurv (Feb 26, 2005)

yeah I did mean subjective, whatever.

You got the point?

I see what Adhir says when he compares lots of points of scorers like VC as franchise 'cornerstones', to the harsh reality Vince scored alot and wanted to be 2nd fiddle. Bosh does whatever it takes to win, and wants to be #1. Ideally if he dropped 30 every night and we still lost (VC) how would that be a good cornerstone to build upon? If he dropped 30 and we WIN, great. But we dont have to see him drop 30, we just have to see the Raps WIN. That is the most important thing. 

I have seen him being willing to do whatever it takes to win, and getting his skinny *** beat around out of position in his rookie year is an example. After that Chicago game, I saw what Bosh meant to this team, as a player. He wants to win, he will suffer to win, he will do whatever he can to win. And when you saw his face, you KNEW that. Thats a guy to build a franchise around. He's already an All star, #4 from one of the deepest drafts in a long, long time, and still getting better. Bosh is still proving his place alongside the other guys in that draft, yes, but I think this year he can stand proud amongst them.


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## junkyarddawgg (Mar 24, 2005)

adhir: Don't get me wrong here, I absolutely love Bosh on the Raptors. I believe that he has a bright future, and that he is a very good, borderline great player.

Maybe I didn't state it clearly enough, but what I meant to say was that Bosh has RARELY dropped more than 30 in a game. I'm not talking about averaging 30, because that's very rare, but when you think of big men through out the league who are franchise cornerstones, you think of the Duncans, the Nowitzskis, who can all explode for 30 or more point on any given night. I especially like Duncan, who is a true big man who can drop 30 if he feels like it, yet he plays within a team concept, which may or may not lead to 30+ point games. Then again, being compared to Duncan would be a little too much for Bosh, imo. Duncan is HoF material, Bosh I'm not sold about it...yet.

swurv: I do however agree with all of you that Bosh will try to do anything to win, that he has the heart of a winner, that he will always try to improve. I truly believe that Bosh has all of these qualities. But when it comes to the meat and potatoes of it all, the game of basketball, putting the ball in the basket, grabbing the rebound, swatting the tough shot, playing the tough man to man D, making the visionary pass, I'm not sure that Bosh is the player that will elevate to the status of a Tim Duncan, one who can truly take a whole franchise on his back. Bosh will need quite a bit of help, because he lacks the inside-outside-game & passing-defense of Timmy, the "versatility" of Dirk or Lebron or Garnett, the brute strength of Shaq, the killer game of Kobe, etc. Bosh will mostly need a physical presence to help him handle tougher and stronger opponents. Then again, all of these aforementioned players need help too, it's just that I have this gut feeling that he won't elevate to a perennial All-Star great. To be perfectly honest with you, I don't even believe that Carmelo can be a franchise cornerstone, so I know I'm being rather harsh. There aren't many players who are franchise cornerstones in my mind.

As for the point about a scorer being the cornerstone of a franchise, I completely agree with you swurv. I mean, think of a few good scorers that the NBA has seen: from last season, Redd, J-Rich, Carmelo, Jamison, Rashard Lewis, in the past, Glenn Robinson, I can't think of other names. So yeah, good scorers don't necessarily make good franchise cornerstones. However, how many cornerstones are not explosive scorers? I can think of Kidd, Ben Wallace is debatable (I think Billups was the cornerstone of that franchise, if there was one), and that's about it.

I think that having the ability to score easily is very important for the cornerstone of a franchise, since he will often be the one to carry the team in the clutch, and the easiest way to affect the outcome of a game is by making your shots count. Anyways, that's just my opinion, evryone is allowed to disagree


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

This is borderline ridiculous.

Bosh shoots a high percentage. He gets to the line very well, and is a very good FT shooter.

He has a diverse skillset that can score against almost anyone. Marcus Camby and KG can defend him, and thats about it. Prettty much everyone else he can either shoot over or blow by.

He has been severely limited only by opportunities.

Compare him to Duncan. Last year Duncan scored 18.6 ppg on 48% shooting. When Duncan scored more, it was because he took more shots.

The reason why Bosh isn't shooting more is that people (Mike James) don't get him the ball. 

Mike James was the biggest ballhog in the entire NBA last year. Statistically, only 30% of his FGs were assisted. Even Gilbert Arenas shared the ball to the tune of 37% of his FGs being assisted. Kobe, who you think of as dominating the ball, had 44% of his shots assisted.

Most of the time, James just dribbled, dribbled, dribbled, and while it was good for him it sucked for the rest of the team.

As far a clutch goes, Bosh has had relatively few opportunities, and is FAR from bad when compared to a full spectrum of star players. To put his performance in context, league wide average for game-winning shots is only 29%. Bosh is 2 for 8, 25%. Really small sample. If he makes his next GWS he becomes 33% and is as far above average as he is currently below.

Kobe Bryant is 7/29 = 21.9%
Vince is 8/31 = 25.8%
Chauncey is 5/26 = 19.2%
Lebron is 4/19 = 21.1%
J-Rich is 3/20 = 15%
Rashard Lewis = 2/11
JO is 2/14
Magette is 1/11
Brand is 1/5
Marbury is 1/12
Cassell is 0/6
and MVP Steve Nash is 1/15.

I think its a little early to judge CB4, and you need to use a realistic benchmark. Few players shoot over 35% on GW shot attempts.

BEST right now are Carmelo 11/17 and Ben Gordon already 7/13.


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## junkyarddawgg (Mar 24, 2005)

I will admit that statistically speaking I cannot back up my arguments, because all that I've said is simply based on pure gut feeling.

As for the comparison with Duncan, let's not forget he's been hampered with injury the last year (something that Bosh has avoided up until now, and hopefully, for the rest of his career...). However, Duncan is able to dominate when he wants to, he has that "on-off" switch the greats have. It is my belief that Bosh doesn't have that 7th gear (or wtvr) that a super-uberstar would need.

It is true however that Bosh, throughout his career, has always been limited in opportunities. That probably skews my perception of him, and that is why I'm very interested and curious about this upcoming season. Will it be Bosh's coming out party where he joins Lebron and Wade in the "elite"?

That's what we'll find out in a few months time.


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## swurv (Feb 26, 2005)

junkyard-I like your point about the "7th" gear some uber-stars seem to have. Its true, some guys seem to go into overdrive when really important games are on the line. But I think Chris has it too, we just havent seen any opportunities to see it yet. Some games, he would pwn the other team for a minute, then Mike James would start swagger-jacking, thinking he was the one who dropped the last three shots, and go off firing bombs from half court after dribbling for like 15 seconds. What ever happened to striking while the iron(hand) is hot?


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## DWADE4 (Aug 18, 2006)

Bosh is a great player and the Raptors are lucky to have him. However he does not hold that franchise player mentality where he has to be the best player on the court at all times. For example players like Dwade, Lebron, Kobe, A.I and so on, those players will always be the best in any competition. Bosh is a great basketball player but i dont think he has what it takes to be the Best.


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## swurv (Feb 26, 2005)

:raised_ey says the guy with Dwayne Wade in his sig?

Seriously though, I think this is boiling down to an issue of style. Some people like the slashing, showtime style of some franchise players, I like the style Bosh brings to the table. I guess we'll just have to sit back and see what happens this season, I think Bosh will prove me right, and win, and the raps make the playoffs. I am optimistic, yes, but I think it will happen. I'll hedge and say if they miss out, it will be with a better record than the last two seasons, and they will at least contend for a spot. If im wrong, laugh at me, but I think they will win more, with Bosh leading the way.


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## junkyarddawgg (Mar 24, 2005)

Would you have any examples of franchise players who could of been in Bosh's mold (or rather, what franchise player mold-example would Bosh fit in?)

Just so I can have a better idea, I'm feeling rather uncreative right now


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Guys like KG and Dirk get this slag until the coach and the guards get together and decide to give their star the ball. This is reality since 7-footers aren't allowed to dribble the ball up the court.

Big guys need someone willing and able to give them the ball. Ball-handling guards don't.


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