# Most Overrated Player in the Draft?



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Kirk Hinrich didn't impress me enough to be a mid-lottery pick in this years draft. Not saying he's not good, but not good enough to be ranked higher than 15th. 

Who do you guys think is overrated?


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

I'm gonna have to say TJ Ford because of his lack of a shot, but who knows I could be wrong


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

To be honest I used to think he was overrated but the more I watched him the more it was evident how valuable he was. Hinrich was the gunner for the team and he could have easily averaged over 5-6 apg if not for Miles. His defense is also underrated. Hinrich falls in the category of non-flashy players who often don't get the same appeal by fans as those who are. IMO Ford is a better PG but Hinrich is the most ready PG in the NBA draft. He will not wow crowds but he will be very efficient.

I always thought Pietrus was underrated until recently. I remember having a draft prospect list sometime last year and I listed Pietrus I believe somewhere around 20-25 and a lot of posters question my opinion.

I also always thought that Sweetney was VERY underrated until recently and I had him ranked as the third best PF prospect behind Darko and Okafor since late last year in a post.

As far as overrated goes...James Lang and Kendrick Perkins.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

TJ plays like Kidd. He can get players the ball where they need it. Kirk's shot was no where to be found in the NCAA championship game which really put my doubts on him. 

TJ is fast enough and sees the floor well enough to play PG in the NBA. His shot will come just like Kidd's did after a few years.

Texas wasn't that good of a team this past year. I don't think they'll make it to the sweet 16 this coming year. TJ made them way better than they were. He's going to fit in well if he has a C. Butler or maybe even a VC to drive and dish to.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

Travis Outlaw, he is being projected as a first round pick, but nobody who ranks high school players considers him a top 5 player and some don't even consider him a top 10 player. Some team will draft him in the first round based on potential he will never realize. I think Micheal Sweetney is highly underrated, he will put up similar numbers to Elton Brand. Sweetney's body is almost exactly the same as Brand's, about 6'8 or 6'9 260 pounds and long arms. Sweetney is going to be a sleeper for ROY.


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## Brady00 (May 16, 2003)

TJ Ford=Travis Best
Chris Kaman=Chris Mihm


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## ^__^ (Jan 12, 2003)

tj ford is a little overrated, rarely you'll find a small guy like that without an excellent stroke, everytime a player under 6 feet tall made it to the league, YOU KNOW THE DUDE CAN PLAY !!!!!
thats an unofficial rule, and tj at 5-8, is lighting quick like the answer and have mad hops like speedy claxton but if he cant even make a college 3 point basket, which is located somewhere at the top of the key, how is he going to make a nba 3 point basket ?????
opponents will be advice to leave him open for wide open jump shot just like kidd, a slasher rather than a shooter, as for his decision making from the way i observe he play at texas, is PLAIN as VANILLA.

other than this guy i dont think theres anyone else whos really overrated in this draft class, chris bosh is a little overrated also, he does not own a consistent outside shot and isnt very fundamentally sound in the post, he plays a little like kg, a little like td, and is nowhere near as good as either of those 2, and hes very very skinny, needs to really bulk up to play the 4, which seems like his best position, when i say SKINNY i mean SKINNY !!!!!! hes so skinny that you can actually see the ribs on his chest, the brother is THIN as hell.

this draft overall is below-average in terms of overall talents, the only guys worth mentioning are lebron-melo-darko, although you never know whats gonna happen in the future until you see ever each of them play in the nba.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

lebron james


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

It'd have to be one of the Euros, I'm not sure which one... but I don't think NBA GMs know either. Can I go on the record in saying that half of the Euro first-rounders are going to suck horribly?


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

I think Hinrich is overrated also. He is a decent defender but his shot was lacking when it counted. What is he really good at? He is solid at all things but he needs something else to push him over the edge.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

> rainman lebron james


HA HA u having a laugh!?


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## Ben1 (May 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> It'd have to be one of the Euros, I'm not sure which one... but I don't think NBA GMs know either. Can I go on the record in saying that half of the Euro first-rounders are going to suck horribly?


Yeah i agree!! The europeans are just way overrated!!


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## PatBateman (May 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Battlestar</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah i agree!! The europeans are just way overrated!!



Couldn't agree more with you two guys. I will pick one, though, and say Pavel P. is the most overrated player in the draft. Darko has said the guy can't shoot and can barely walk. Just because you're a big stiff who resembles a brick wall doesn't mean you can play basketball.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> I also always thought that Sweetney was VERY underrated until recently and I had him ranked as the third best PF prospect behind Darko and Okafor since late last year in a post.
> 
> As far as overrated goes...James Lang and Kendrick Perkins.


Man Basketball Doctor, you know your stuff, it's great man seriously.

But as to Okafor being ranked higher than Sweetney, I don't believe so. I think Okafor is very overrated in relation to where he would be picked. He is a PF at 6'9 but he doesn't have refined post moves at all or overwhelming athleticism. The thing that scares me about him, is every time UConn loses, it is because he plays against big guys who are either bulky or overly physical. I mean in the G'Town - UConn game Sweetney had something like 26 and 13 against him. But the scouts might be right about Okafor. He is a good player but he gets taken out of his game by big strong big men i.e. Lonny Baxter (last year) and Ontario Lett (pitt) and James Thomas (texas).

Oh yeah Sweetney is underrated. He is a legitimate low post presence. He would work as your PF or your back up because he will score in the paint. I agree with Frank Burlison from Fox Sports, Sweetney will average 15 and 8 in his rookie season and everyone will be surprised, but it won't be a surprise, he is a man NOW.


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## Squirrel (Jul 25, 2002)

Lebron James. 

As good as he may turn out to be, he can't possibly live up to all the hype and expectations.


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## Ben1 (May 20, 2003)

True. All the hype and expectations shall lead him to an inevitable failure.. Hopefully the media can just leave him alone and let him play bball..


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PatBateman</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't agree more with you two guys. I will pick one, though, and say Pavel P. is the most overrated player in the draft. Darko has said the guy can't shoot and can barely walk. Just because you're a big stiff who resembles a brick wall doesn't mean you can play basketball.


I agree 100%. IMHO Podkolzin is a fraud who is being hyped by his Italian team because they want the buyout money. Caveat emptor.


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## s00pers0nics (May 24, 2003)

darko, he will be **** to what he is being seen as...


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## feedy (Apr 7, 2003)

Marcus Banks is overrated.
Mike Sweetney finally getting respect.
Kirk Hinrich is overrated.
Reece Gaines is underrated.
David West is underrated. I think he is better than Nick Collison.
*Marcus Hatten is so UNDERRATED.*


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## Ben1 (May 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>feedy</b>!
> David West is underrated. I think he is better than Nick Collison.
> *Marcus Hatten is so UNDERRATED.*


I totally agree!


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>feedy</b>!
> Marcus Banks is overrated.
> Mike Sweetney finally getting respect.
> Kirk Hinrich is overrated.
> ...


Agree 100%. I'll add:

Marcus Moore is underrated
Chris Kaman is overrated
Troy Bell is underrated


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## BigChris (Jul 12, 2002)

Everybody after lebron.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

I agree with the people who say Marcus Hatten and Troy Bell are underrated. I don't get how two players who can play the point and score, aren't being talked about. I feel Bell is going to have a great career, because he can shoot, score and find the open teammate. Hatten will be a good player, he doesn't have the range Bell has and he isn't as good of a PG. I think Bell would fit in perfectly with a team like Boston, who is looking for a PG who can score. He is already better than Delk and JR Bremmer ever will be.


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## Stevie B (May 15, 2003)

I'll go with guys I've seen rather than taking a hunch on the Europeans.

Kirk Hinrich - I don't think he'll be a great PG and I'd rather have Ridnour, Ford, Banks or Barbosa.

Chris Kaman - Can't see him being more than an average center. The need for the position in the league will make him a mid-lottery pick but I think a guy like Sweetney or Lampe is of far better value.


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## DallasBaller (May 15, 2003)

KIRK HINRICH is very OVERRATED. All he wants to do is run up and down the court for fast breaks but he's know Steve Nash. His confidence stinked up New Orleans during the championship game. Keith Langford is more ready than he is. As far as underrated; I will have to choose Quinton Ross from SMU or Andre Emmett from Texas Tech. :devil:


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## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

TJ Ford

I don't get the guy who earlier said that Texas didn't have that good of a team this year. They had an amazing team without TJ. He just was the final piece of the puzzle. They had a combination of good outside shooting and an inside presence. But I guess that's beside the point.

I have trouble differentiating between Ford's potential and the game of a quick small pointguard, say Speedy Claxton. I mean, Ford doesn't have a reliable outside shot. He will be a liability against a taller guard. Even when you consider his passing, watching him play a dozen times, I wasn't really impressed. His game was simple. He'd drive into the middle of the key, and instead of shooting a layup, often he'd pass to a man who was standing adjacent to him. He passed up the shot to give it to another guy with essentially an equal shot (I agree with the Vanilla comment). He did this 4 or 5 times a game. Get rid of those nonesense passes, and his stats are much less compelling. I just dont think he is the next Jason Kidd or whatnot. He just made simple passes. He didn't do anything phenomenal. But really, the scariest part is that he may not be able to score at the next level. Hinrich and Ridnour have both shown to have an outside shot. Both are nearly as quick. Both are taller. However, neither had to put up the same assist numbers because they were relied on to score more baskets. That's another thing. Ford's situation has to be considered. He didn't have to score, so he could concentrate on assists.

Now that all being said, Ford is really good at some things. He is a good rebounder for such a small guy, and he is a good athlete. However, if he can't score consistently, can't make a 3 point shot etc. Defenses can lay off him and force him to drive. Also, the guards in the pros are much quicker than those in college so even if they are up on him, it'll be harder for him to penetrate. It just will be a lot harder adjustment. But in the end, if he can't score (and it's still a large question) what makes TJ different than say Speedy, or an Eric Snow, or even Travis Best?? Would any of these 3 be worthy of a top 10 pick? Certainly not.


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## Cyberwolf (May 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TheSquirrel</b>!
> Lebron James.
> 
> As good as he may turn out to be, he can't possibly live up to all the hype and expectations.


:yes: I'll second that.


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## realbullsfaninLA (Jan 8, 2003)

I have to disagree with everyone here who feels Ford is overrated.I think his passing ability is phenomenal.He has a good feel for the game,and knows how to get his teammates involved.

Someone mentioned the simplicity of his passes.How can that be a bad thing?Another thing I love about his game is Ford's willingness to drive to the hole.

Ford's jumper is currently inconsistent,but not horrible.And it will improve.(Kidd learned how to shoot)

I see him as an eventual all-star caliber guard.

I think Kaman is very overrated.I also feel that Millicek is overrated..if Detroit thinks he can play the 5.He will have no success in the NBA at the 5 for YEARS to come, if ever, due to his lack of strength.

My most UNDERRATED player in this draft is Dahntay Jones.He will be this year's Richard Jefferson.


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## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>realbullsfaninLA</b>!
> Someone mentioned the simplicity of hispasses.How can that be a bad thing?Another thing I love about his game is Ford's willingness to drive to the hole.


That was me.

I really think that he's an overrated passer. He makes the simple pass, and that's great. You couldn't ask for more from your pg. But everyone heaps praise upon this passing skill, and I just don't see it. You would expect this guy with this phenomenal passing skill to be whipping all kinds of crazy passes, finding guys who seemingly don't look open with passes, and he just doesn't do this. That was the point I was trying to make. Not that simple passes are bad. Just that he doesn't throw amazing passes that you would expect him to make.


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## realbullsfaninLA (Jan 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Springsteen</b>!
> 
> 
> That was me.
> ...


I gotcha! I actually think Ford toned his passes down from his high school days.I 've seen him may spectacular passes as well.(McDonald's All American Game)

I just think he,and Hollis Price,are winners who will make it in the league.


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## TheWindyCityBallers (May 19, 2003)

Michael Pietrus isn't worth the 7th pick as some have projected IMO.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Can't really think of the most overrated but no doubt the most underrated player in this draft is Mike Sweetney.
Kaman is a little overrated.hes underrated by most of you guys,just because hes a tall white guy he is supposedly going to turn out to be Chris Mihm,if he was a black 7'0 center,beautiful footwork,nice touch and coming off a great college season everyone would love him


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## BigChris (Jul 12, 2002)

I only saw Kaman in the tourney and I don't think he had a real good game, but those clips of him they show on espn make him look pretty agile for a big man.

I hated him at first, but if his work ethic is as good as advertised, I'm starting to think he might end up being one of the best players in this draft in a few years.

And yeah, if Pietrus(aka eddie robinson II) is considered a top 10 pick now, he's way overrated.


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## realbullsfaninLA (Jan 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> Can't really think of the most overrated but no doubt the most underrated player in this draft is Mike Sweetney.
> Kaman is a little overrated.hes underrated by most of you guys,just because hes a tall white guy he is supposedly going to turn out to be Chris Mihm,if he was a black 7'0 center,beautiful footwork,nice touch and coming off a great college season everyone would love him


I disagree.You basically described Brian Cook minus an inch.No one is high on him here.Don't be so quick to play the race card.


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## ltrain99 (Apr 27, 2003)

I think there are a lotta depth in this draft so it shard 2 find some1 who really sticks out, no1 does to me. But kirk hinrich is decently overrated and i think he is definitely the most overrated out of any1 in the 1st round


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## Gibson (Jun 10, 2002)

From what I've seen (which is limited), Chris Bosh is most overrated. He is considered to have great range, and although he does shoot alot from the outside, I didnt see him hit many... As for his inside game, I really can't judge because in the game I saw, he wasnt ever inside. From what I've seen, he is happy with playing the perimeter and shooting bricks, as a result, I don't think too highly of him, not too mention the fact that he is far to skinny to play inside in the NBA. 
Also, if what Darko says is true, Pavel Podkolzin is definatly the most overrated.


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## mercury (Apr 9, 2003)

Carmello Anthony will have trouble adapting to SF's his size with quickness...he is a defensive liability (that's being generous)...he will not be able to hide behind the simple zone that he was used to...He will also have difficulty with his bread and butter post up game down low...he won't overpower NBA players like he did in college...his best bet is to work hard on his perimiter game and lose some of that 30LBS that he gained in one year.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

John Stockton has 15,000+ simple assists, you don't need to make a flashy or amazing pass to be a great passer, all you have to do is get the ball to the open man. A great passer makes the difficult pass seem routine. He is so quick that he beat his man off the dribble and forces the defense to collapse on him, and gives it to one of his teammates who are wide open for a layup. To the person who said Kidd learned to shoot, sorry he hasn't, he still can't shoot, if I had to have a player take the last shot of the game, Kidd would be near the bottom of the list. Kidd shoots better than he used to, but it's almost impossible for him not to shooot better than he did. Everybody talks about Iverson's percentage, but Kidd shoots the same if not worse, and takes much less shots and much more help.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Overrated? Pietrus, Cabarkapa, Collison, Ridnour

Underrated? CHRIS THOMAS, David West


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>skip_dawg!</b>!
> 
> HA HA u having a laugh!?


actually i should have said he was over-hyped,it may not be fair to say he is overrated.but here's a guy who has never played international ball or college ball and we are pretty much punching his ticket already to the hall of fame.i really dont see him failing in any shape or form,he has so much athletic ability he can get by on that alone,sort of like a ricky davis or a bonzi wells,i dont know if he has the handle or the shooting touch to be a kobe bryant or a tracy mcgrady.i hope he does well,the league can always use new supers but this guy has gotten way too much attention at a young age.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Gibson</b>!
> From what I've seen (which is limited), Chris Bosh is most overrated. He is considered to have great range, and although he does shoot alot from the outside, I didnt see him hit many... As for his inside game, I really can't judge because in the game I saw, he wasnt ever inside. From what I've seen, he is happy with playing the perimeter and shooting bricks, as a result, I don't think too highly of him, not too mention the fact that he is far to skinny to play inside in the NBA.
> Also, if what Darko says is true, Pavel Podkolzin is definatly the most overrated.


i agree about Bosh..and playing in Utah(tourney) hurt Kaman as a big man.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> *Springsteen*
> 
> TJ Ford
> 
> ...


Ok so your scaried of TJ Ford because he is short, can't shoot and is not that impressive of a passer.

First off he is a superior athlete compared to Hinrich and Ridnour. He can run faster, he can jump higher and no matter what you say I think he is quicker than both of them. He can take any player off the dribble in college. And that is impressive because unlike this year, the college game tight. There were not many lanes to drive to the hoop with the college line where it was at. But TJ still found a way to get to the hoop whenever and where ever he wanted to.

Also I can not for the life of me see why you compared TJ to Speedy, Snow and Best? Best maybe but Best was never that good of a athlete and was never that good of a pure PG! Snow is a slow, unathletic defensive PG, so how does he compare to TJ? And Speedy, well he is close but no where near TJ's explosive ability or just plan athletic ability.

Remember John Stockton was not a great offensive player, he just ran the team and made it work. John improved his offense over the years and TJ can do the same. Should he be the 3rd pick, probably not, but don't be surprised if Denver trades down. I think they could work a deal out with the LA Clippers that would send the Kandi man and the 6th pick to Denver for basically Carmelo at the 3rd spot. 

Sure TJ is small but he is a very underrated defender, he can lock on a man and stay with him all game long. He can penetrate and you say his passes are easy, well sure they look easy! Everything looks easy when you just penetrate and kickout, it is simple to do and players are wide open when you do it. I would much rather have a PG like TJ that is willing to pass all day long instead of a offensive minded PG!

I believe you underrate TJ's athletic superiority as well, I compare him to Iverson because he is a athlete some what like Allen. Really fast up court, has a strong dribble and is very good in the air. 

TJ is a rare athlete, a rare PG and a rare competitior. He has leadership skills and his competitiveness will improve his game every year!


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## hitokiri (May 22, 2003)

Pavel Podkolzine is the most overrated player. Bosh isnt really overrated. He shot 45% from 3 point range which is pretty damn good for a PF. He is very athletic as well. All he has to do is put on 20-30 pounds of muscle and he will be great. As soon as he can back down other PFs he will be unstopable. Hinrich is slightly overrated too. I think 3 very underrated players are Jameer Nelson, Marcus Hatten, and Ndudi Ebi.


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## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> 
> 
> Ok so your scaried of TJ Ford because he is short, can't shoot and is not that impressive of a passer.
> ...


I dont know what it means to be scaried of a guy. 

I didn't debate Ford's athletic skills. I compared him to Snow, Best and Claxton for a variety of reasons, but not athletically. He's a good leader like Snow. Claxton is extremely quick, some would say explosive. And Best was included because, like the other two, he wasn't a phenomenal scorer, but more of a calming force on the court, who could occasionally score. I wouldn't draft any of these pg's high. 

The point was, I don't think Ford is this gamebreaker others say he is. He's clearly shorter than every other guard out there. Which makes him prone to being posted up. Without a jumpshot, it wont matter if he can take anyone off the dribble, because they will be playing far enough off him that his quick first step will be negated.

What does this sentence mean?
"*And that is impressive because unlike this year, the college game tight. * " for the life of me, I can't figure it out.

As for lanes, an outside shooting team like Texas spread the defense. It made it easier for Ford to find lanes to the basket in actuality. Also, if you are going to talk about going through lanes, it is exceedingly tougher in the pros, even with the futher back 3 point line, because of the large size of the 3's, 4's and 5's. 

I'm confused. Is penetrating and kicking out easy? Because if it is like you said, then him finding the lanes shouldn't have been a problem like you claimed earlier. 

You can't compare his game to Iverson's. It doesn't work. Iverson is a lights out scorer, who finds ways to get points.

Again though, I'm not saying Ford sucks. Not by any stretch. I just don't think he's worthy of a high lottery pick, or all of the praise that has been given to him.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> I dont know what it means to be scaried of a guy.
> 
> I didn't debate Ford's athletic skills. I compared him to Snow, Best and Claxton for a variety of reasons, but not athletically. He's a good leader like Snow. Claxton is extremely quick, some would say explosive. And Best was included because, like the other two, he wasn't a phenomenal scorer, but more of a calming force on the court, who could occasionally score. I wouldn't draft any of these pg's high.
> 
> ...


Finally I get a response from you so we can talk some basketball.

Ok I think TJ Ford's shooting will improve over time, I do not think shooting is that hard of a skill to master, it just takes time and practice. 

"And that is impressive because unlike this year, the college game tight. " for the life of me, I can't figure it out.


Well that means that the college line is moving farther out next year I believe, or at least they are attempting to get that passed. But it is very hard for some great college players to get into the lane. I do not think there is such a thing as a spread out offense in college. The 3 point lines are so tight the lane is full with players and the driving lanes are shut off at times. But TJ still got into the lane at will.

I think you also underrate his pure PG ability, it is very, very hard to find a PG that will pass first even though he is a great athlete. TJ could score, he could be a very good scorer but he wants to make his teammates better and that is a very hard quality to find. TJ could have came into Texas and shot all the time because he can get open whenever he wants to. But he played team ball and made others better. And I think you will be surprised this year how Texas looks as a team, because a PG like TJ can make everyone on the court look much better than they actually are.

TJ's competitiveness, intensity and leadership is something I really like. And it could just be a personal preference but I like pass first PG's, and TJ is one!

I compare his athletic ability to Iverson, not his game.

Sure he can get posted up by bigger guards but he would be hell on defense. He showed some very good man to man skills in college. He could be a good pest on defense and he would be hard to guards because he can really push the ball up court. 

I love the way he runs the fast break, he just has another gear other PG's don't have I think.

I think he would be a wonderful addition to Denver or Miami. Sure he is small but that is just a measurment, you can't measure his heart and passion.


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## JustinSane (May 26, 2003)

I think Sweetney is under-rated. He has a great low post game and he appears NBA ready physically. I'd select him 4th if I were the Raptors. Nice inside counter-balance to Carter. Sure, there is likely to be someone else who will end up better than him available. I just don't know who it will be, and I'm pretty sure that he is, worst case scenario, a fairly good player. Possibly a very good player.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> But as to Okafor being ranked higher than Sweetney, I don't believe so. I think Okafor is very overrated in relation to where he would be picked. He is a PF at 6'9 but he doesn't have refined post moves at all or overwhelming athleticism. The thing that scares me about him, is every time UConn loses, it is because he plays against big guys who are either bulky or overly physical. I mean in the G'Town - UConn game Sweetney had something like 26 and 13 against him. But the scouts might be right about Okafor. He is a good player but he gets taken out of his game by big strong big men i.e. Lonny Baxter (last year) and Ontario Lett (pitt) and James Thomas (texas).


My opinion on Okafor still stands.


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## Starks (Feb 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>feedy</b>!
> Kirk Hinrich is overrated.
> Reece Gaines is underrated.
> David West is underrated. I think he is better than Nick Collison.


I had never read this thread before. These three caught my attention. Hinrich was impressive and Gaines couldn't even get off the bench for the Magic and has now been traded. It will be interesting to see if he earns any playing time for Van Gundy. As for West vs Collison, N.O. was satisfied with David's production last season and he has been working hard this summer. Although I think Collison will put up better numbers with the Sonics. He's a big piece of their puzzle.


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## prlindo (Aug 22, 2004)

Okafor couldnt even post up against Angolian fowards I don't think hes that good I probably need to watch him more


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

:laugh: I'm laughing at the people that said Bron was overrated.


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