# Hinrich has looked like crap so far...



## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

I love the kid, but the truth is the truth. He needs to step it up. Is he playing good defense or is he just clumsily getting in his opponents way? I mean, what's with all the foul trouble.

I expected much better from him to start the pre-season.


----------



## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

Still the preseason so i think he will be ok.

david


----------



## Erock10 (Sep 17, 2004)

Frankly, I think he has looked like **** as well. I even made the comment (in haste) the other night that we no longer need him due to the emergence of Duhon. I realize that this is not the case but the team has looked MUCH better thus far with Duhon manning the point


----------



## Chicago N VA (Oct 31, 2003)

uh oh.... 

Do I see another rivalry on the board?


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Chicago N VA</b>!
> uh oh....
> 
> Do I see another rivalry on the board?


It wouldn't be Chicago w/o a PG or QB controversy, now would it? :yes:


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

He sure looked like crap in the preseason action I saw him in. He appears to have added some strngth and it seems to have slown him down somewhat making him not as good a defender. Still, it is just preseason, I am gonna reserve judgement until the regular season starts...hopefully he will get it together.


----------



## BenDengGo (Feb 1, 2004)

may be it is his ritual to play crap in the preseason....and rise the real season.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Some players don't give a damn about preseason.


----------



## Erock10 (Sep 17, 2004)

The fact that he has looked like crap freaks me out but what scares me the most is that he looks like a freaking midget out there and he has shown tlo have the same FT disease that J-Will had.


----------



## Chi_Lunatic (Aug 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Some players don't give a damn about preseason.


basically

lebron's put up 10pts one game, and 16 in another...shaq hasn't scored more than 15pts, yao and tmac have also looked liike trash....alot of these folks don't really care

it's not a big deal...kid was one of the best rookies last year..there's nothing to worry about....


----------



## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

its only preseason this guy is a stud


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

You people make it sound like Hinrich has actually played meaningful minutes. He's been under 20 minutes in every game I've watched; that's hardly enough PT to make much noise. The good thing is that he's dished alot of assists in limited time and has taken good care of the ball, i.e. good assist/turnover ratio. On defense, these foul rules are killing him, and obviously frustrating him. There might be an adjustment process for him in this regard. His shooting has been off and on, but again, this goes back to rhythm. Most players will shoot like crap if they have sporadic playing time. Skiles knows what Kirk can do, and he's saving him for regular season play.


----------



## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>yodurk</b>!
> You people make it sound like Hinrich has actually played meaningful minutes. He's been under 20 minutes in every game I've watched; that's hardly enough PT to make much noise. The good thing is that he's dished alot of assists in limited time and has taken good care of the ball, i.e. good assist/turnover ratio. On defense, these foul rules are killing him, and obviously frustrating him. There might be an adjustment process for him in this regard. His shooting has been off and on, but again, this goes back to rhythm. Most players will shoot like crap if they have sporadic playing time. Skiles knows what Kirk can do, and he's saving him for regular season play.


The reason he hasn't played meaningful minutes is b/c he can't stay on the court--foul trouble. Regretfully to say, this is a major part of the game. If a guy cannot defend and stay out of foul trouble he ain't worth a crap. Whether its missing shots, poor defense, foul trouble, turn overs, etc....a player that lacks in any of these areas should not be starting/playing


----------



## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I think he'll be alright. As others have pointed out, he really hasn't played all that many minutes and he's been in foul trouble quite a bit. Honestly, I don't think Skiles is all that concerned with getting him minutes during the preseason as he already knows what Kirk can do. I'm also of the opinion that Skiles was limiting his minutes during preseason because he believes that Kirk may have to play 40+ minutes a game and he didn't want to start him off playing meaningless minutes during preseason. We may see more of Kirk these last 4 games because it looks like Skiles is becomming more comfortable with the notion of having Duhon on the floor for stretches of time. It may be with the emergence of Duhon as a viable PG option that Kirks projected minutes may be more in the 32-36 MPG range.

Hinrich has looked pretty ragged these first four games (I've only watched two of them). He seemed to step it up in the fourth quarter of this last game. It looked like he was looking for shots during that stretch rather than in other games where he was not aggressive from an offensive standpoint. I think he'll be just fine.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lorgg</b>!
> 
> 
> The reason he hasn't played meaningful minutes is b/c he can't stay on the court--foul trouble. Regretfully to say, this is a major part of the game. If a guy cannot defend and stay out of foul trouble he ain't worth a crap. Whether its missing shots, poor defense, foul trouble, turn overs, etc....a player that lacks in any of these areas should not be starting/playing


Well, I did mention in my post that he is struggling with these new foul rules. I think he'll adjust to that and end up with less foul trouble. I'd rather see him play aggressively and get a few fouls than to see him play passively all the time.

As for his shooting, it hasn't been as terrible as people are saying. His stat sheet through 4 games (and again, meaningless preseason games) are 3-4 (good), 2-4 (solid), 3-13 (poor, but his 6-6 free throws were huge down the stretch), and 1-6 (poor). All in all, I don't think we've seen the real Kirk Hinrich since a decision had to be made on Duhon, Wilks, Williams, and Pargo. This is becoming more clear, so expect more of Hinrich is the remaining 4 pre-season games. The kid shot nearly 40% on 3's last year; I see no reason for his shooting to decline this year.


----------



## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

He did look sluggish for some of the games, but at least there was the bright spot at the end of the last game. He had 9 straight I think in the last 2:30, and came up really clutch.

After some lackluster performances prior to that (including the first 3 quarters of that game), I was glad to see him take control of the team and finish it off.


----------



## Chicago N VA (Oct 31, 2003)

I know some of the Elite players don't take preseason too seriously.

But some here are discounting.. the preseason all together.

If you are not shooting great and forcing things in preseason. Do you think once the season starts... everything will just turn on just like that.


----------



## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

Hey guys, is there anyone here who thinks Hinrich is not playing hard during preseason? I think he is having a tough time adjusting to the new defensive rules and perhaps his new body mass. But it seems way off base to me to argue that he is coasting through the preseason. That is not consistent with him being a player that worked his butt off all summer.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Don't downplay the fact that Hinrich is surrounded by better talent. With Deng, Nocioni and a more active Curry he doesn't have to carry half as much of the scoring brunt. Hinrich is a quality player, who plays good D, and runs a team well. I haven't seen his D slipping and he continues to distribute. Just because he isn't putting up the same points doesn't mean he is struggling -- only that he no longer has to force his looks for the team to score.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dan Rosenbaum</b>!
> Hey guys, is there anyone here who thinks Hinrich is not playing hard during preseason? I think he is having a tough time adjusting to the new defensive rules and perhaps his new body mass. But it seems way off base to me to argue that he is coasting through the preseason. That is not consistent with him being a player that worked his butt off all summer.


Foul rules, yes.

Body mass, no.

As I've stated already, consistent minutes will help him find his groove. He isn't forcing thing, and he isn't turning the ball over. He's still out there doing the things he usually does...except shooting the ball. But even in 4 games, he's still shot 2-4 and 3-4 in 2 of them. My ONLY worry with Kirk is adjusting to the ticky tack foul calls.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Some players don't give a damn about preseason.


are you talking about that super competitor kirk hinrich the kid who drains 3 pointers and walks on water?


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Kirk's an average nba player who has looked pretty below average in the preseason so far. I wouldn't worry much. He'll be back to average once the season starts.
The bigger issue to me is Curry still stinks on the boards and on D.


----------



## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

I think KH has started his last six seasons relatively slowly. The season he set the Big XII 3PT record, he started out something like 3-20 from deep in his first five games.


----------



## Crawscrew (Jul 15, 2002)

Remember how bad he looker early last year and in the few pre-season games he played?? Kirk will be fine, I'm more worried about Ben. The Bulls were banking on him having a poor man's dwayne wade rookie year, right now he looks a long ways away. If he can't score this team will have a tough time winning 25 games. If he continues to struggle this team will be similar to the Brand years, they stay close in a lot of games, they work their tails off, but just dont have the talent to win. I think this team will be easier to watch because of the effort, but the talent level has taken a huge step back from the last two years. Deng could change all of that though, he has blown me away so far, but once again this is only pre-season, remember how good Miles looked a couple years ago in pre-season?


----------



## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Agree, Hinrich has not looked good. Mostly, he can't shoot worth a dang. He didn't shoot all that well last season, but he's really off this preseason.

Hinrich was an effective player for the Bulls last season despite the fact that he shot only 39% from the field. Unless he's injured or someone stole his work ethic, he'll be OK.


----------



## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

I wonder if there's an open race at what was supposed to be our most solid position like in past years. Or maybe there's just one race available to this position.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

He is probably paying more attention to learning the tendencies of his new teammates than trying to score. That is the type of thing that happens in the preseason, and especially with excellent passing point guards. They study their teammates, so they know how to set them up and where they are most effective. I think when the season starts, his offensive game will round itself out with his passing skills and defense. 

Its also a preseason with a million different agendas going on, and he isnt one of them. We've got the backup point guard battle, the battle for roster spots, looking at the rookies, looking at Chandler and Curry's progress. Hinrich isn't being looked at in the preseason, so my guess he is letting the coaches do their thing so the team is ready to go by the time the season starts.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

He'll be okay. 32 points, 5 assists, 4 rebounds on 9/18 shooting from the field, and 5/7 from the three point line tonight. He had 4 turnovers, still too many, but otherwise a great game for Hinrich. Thats a good sign.


----------



## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

32/5/3 tonight. Like I said, he usually takes a few games to warm up for whatever reason.

I fully expect him to have a markedly better season than he did last year.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> 32/5/3 tonight. Like I said, he usually takes a few games to warm up for whatever reason.
> 
> I fully expect him to have a markedly better season than he did last year.


Yes, but just to play devil's advocate, VV, if these kind of games are surrounded by lots of bad shooting games, it will be much like Jamal's inconsistency in 03-04. Hopefully this is the beginning of some consistently good play from Kirky.


----------



## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

Perhaps even more importantly, Hinrich seems to be playing his best when it matters most - at the end of close games. He was not always able to do that last season, so this is a reason for optimism.

But Arenas was having a pretty effective night with 7 steals in a little over 20 minutes. That is pretty amazing.


----------



## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

Only 5 assists? I though he was our POINT guard. Why must all Bulls be selfish?


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Scott Skiles' Opinion*

"If he got 30 (points) tonight, what would that mean?" Skiles said. "Would that be trumped up as some breakout game? I mean, it's an exhibition game."

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/262sd3.htm


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Scott Skiles' Opinion*



> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> "If he got 30 (points) tonight, what would that mean?" Skiles said. "Would that be trumped up as some breakout game? I mean, it's an exhibition game."
> 
> http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/262sd3.htm


um...actually he was talking about BEN, mike.





> In an attempt to shake rookie Ben Gordon out of his slump, Skiles gave him extended minutes at point guard.
> 
> "We don't feel like he has played poorly," Skiles said. "He just hasn't been able to get the ball in the basket. He has done some other good things the last couple games. He'll work (the problem) out."
> 
> ...


context, it's a wonderful thing.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Didnt look like crap last night


----------



## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: Re: Scott Skiles' Opinion*



> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> um...actually he was talking about BEN, mike.
> ...


i think he knows. because the quote is "if he got" which Kirk did get. He's saying it's just a preseason game and Kirk scoring 30 doesn't matter much because it is just that.


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Scott Skiles' Opinion*



> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> 
> 
> i think he knows. because the quote is "if he got" which Kirk did get. He's saying it's just a preseason game and Kirk scoring 30 doesn't matter much because it is just that.


well yah. but context is still a wonderful thing. he was manipulating a quote about ben to make his point about kirk. i got it. thanks spongeman. 

 :grinning:


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Scott Skiles' Opinion*



> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> well yah. but context is still a wonderful thing. he was manipulating a quote about ben to make his point about kirk. i got it. thanks spongeman.
> ...


I wasn't manipulating ****. Just because the quote was directed at Ben doesn't mean the notion expressed doesn't equally apply to Kirk. I omitted the part about Ben because the general thought applied to any player.

Providing "context" only matters if you have a double standard, as far as I can see. Skiles basically said 'Player X has been struggling but has played better than his stats. If he lights it up tonight, it doesn't matter much either way, because it's an exhibition game.'

You, by saying I'm "manipulating" the quote, are implicitly taking the position that there's a difference if you replace "Player X" with "Ben" or "Kirk". My question to you is, what's the difference?

How is:

Ben has been struggling but has played better than his stats. If he lights it up tonight, it doesn't matter much either way, because it's an exhibition game.

different from

Kirk has been struggling but has played better than his stats. If he lights it up tonight, it doesn't matter much either way, because it's an exhibition game.

And if you conclude there is no difference, I'll kindly accept your apology for saying I'm "manipulating" things in advance.


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Scott Skiles' Opinion*



> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> I wasn't manipulating ****. Just because the quote was directed at Ben doesn't mean the notion expressed doesn't equally apply to Kirk. I omitted the part about Ben because the general thought applied to any player.
> ...



um. no i will not apologize! (sorry). 

you took the quote out of context to illustrate your point. oooh, was it manipulation? i think so, but i knew exactly what you were up to mike. that said, i did feel it warranted the entire quote, just so folks would know that it was said about ben gordon and not about kirk hinrich. 

so what? 

providing context isn't about having a double standard. it's about providing context.

no harm done.

and no apologies from me!

manipulate away!


:grinning:


----------



## MKazz (Jun 22, 2003)

*Little Girls*

Since when has the board been run by a bunch of little girls?


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Scott Skiles' Opinion*



> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again, since you were unable or unwilling to answer the first time I asked you, what difference does it make whether the quote was about Gordon or Hinrich? If there is no difference, then axiomatically the additional context provides no meaningful additional information for making a decision.


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Scott Skiles' Opinion*



> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Again, since you were unable or unwilling to answer the first time I asked you, what difference does it make whether the quote was about Gordon or Hinrich? If there is no difference, then *axiomatically* the additional context provides no meaningful additional information for making a decision.


frankly, i am more concerned about being called a little girl, but whatever!

ok, axiomatically? yes. it is evident that the additional context doesn't really mean much one way or another. like i said, i knew what you were up to. and all i did was post the rest of the quote.

what is the big deal? seriously. so what?


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Scott Skiles' Opinion*



> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> frankly, i am more concerned about being called a little girl, but whatever!
> ...


Er... because I don't accept that I am "manipulating" anything, and I don't like the negative connotation implied by it.

Manipulation implies I'm being dishonest... hiding *relevant* facts that change the meaning of what I said. You admit the facts I omitted were not relevant.

So basically, you're saying I'm changing the meaning of the quote by omitting what in your own words... "doesn't really mean much one way or the other".

A big deal? No, but it doesn't make much sense, and I see honesty as being more worth protecting than responding to an anonymous coward behind a computer screen who sees fit to call people little girls


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Scott Skiles' Opinion*



> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Er... because I don't accept that I am "manipulating" anything, and I don't like the negative connotation implied by it.
> ...


ok. so you were not "manipulating". you were "re-contextualizing". 

(why do i feel like i am on the witness stand? where's the judge and the jury? where is that law and order chung ching sound? where is denny crain?)

mike, no harm ok? no foul. chill. people take themselves WAY too seriously here sometimes.

are you a lawyer? 




:grinning:


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

''If you watch Nocioni and something doesn't stir inside of you if you're a teammate, you have to take a deep look inside,'' Skiles said. ''When you come out there every day, you better have it strapped on.''


What does Skiles mean?

What needs to be strapped on, what should be stirring inside me from watching Nocioni and what on earth is going on "out there" that requires something to be strapped on?

What the hell goes on at the Berto center?


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> ''If you watch Nocioni and something doesn't stir inside of you if you're a teammate, you have to take a deep look inside,'' Skiles said. ''When you come out there every day, you better have it strapped on.''
> 
> 
> ...


:laugh:


----------



## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> ''If you watch Nocioni and something doesn't stir inside of you if you're a teammate, you have to take a deep look inside,'' Skiles said. ''When you come out there every day, you better have it strapped on.''
> 
> 
> ...


It's quite simple.

Nocioni has been cast to replace Karl Hungus in the sequel to Logjammin', the smash hit porno by Jackie Treehorn. Skiles is assistant director. Bunny Lebowski reprises her role.

This time, he really DOES fix the cable. :yes:


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Hinrich has looked like crap so far...


The Lakers will gladly take him off your hands for Chucky Atkins. Deal?


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Skiles is a twit. His comments are just beyond dumb. Frankly they are comical (strapping it on?, Jesus Christ) Dont pay any attention to him, I doubt his players do. If they do, they wont for much longer. Someone as far out as he is wears his welcome out very fast


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Skiles has funny terminology, but its not hard to know what he is saying. If you want Nocioni play as hard as he does on a daily basis and it has no impact on you(or stir inside of you, in Skiles words), then you're a lost cause. You have to have your gameface everyday (or have it "strapped on").


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Scott Skiles' Opinion*



> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> are you a lawyer?
> 
> :grinning:


If I was a lawyer I'd be used to having my honesty questioned 

* I did spend and unenjoyable year in law school before I started studying econ though.


----------



## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Didnt look like crap last night


MY MAN! How ya been?

Hope you had a great summer.


----------

