# Pacers and the West



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

Have the Pacers played against the "strong" western teams yet? I didn't believe they had yet.

Anyway, I was arguing today with a friend that Indiana will come out of the East. Either Indiana or my sixers.

I have a strong feeling that this pacers team has the ability to take on anyone in the west. I have always been an eastcoast guy so I always represent the eastern conference. I can't wait for Jermaine to take it to the west. With Artest playing the way he is, I see the sky as the limit!

(Check out my Avatar under my postings)


----------



## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

nice avatar man! I think the Pacers can take the teams in the West, this is the NBA, anyone can beat anyone. Especially us since we have a real strong team. Are you a Pacers fan or just a JO fan or what?


----------



## TLR (May 28, 2003)

We are one of a few out east (Detroit included) that actually have a frontcourt that can match up witht that of the huge western conference teams.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Though I am a Nets fan, I anticipate the Pacers getting to the Finals this year. 

Reason I think Carlisle will have a set rotation of players come the second half and playoffs. 

Hopefully Tinsley gets his act together and gets his job back. 

I also think Freddie Jones will become a vital cog off the bench for the Pacers in the coming months. I am very glad he is working out now. He is no bust.


----------



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*no way*

Detroit is nothing man. Im telling you. With the way Artest is playing, the sky is the limit. I don't fear anyone in the west. The west is too hollywood. 

I love to see these tough western teams like the Kings take a road trip east and get beat up. Look at the Kings.. A loss in NY, Boston, ex. 

The truth is the East isnt as big of joke as everyone says. I live in NJ, and Ill gladly admit im tired of watching the Nets. Boring boring boring. I can't wait to see the sixers and pacers in the east finals.

As far as the west goes, the Pacers bench must keep up the input. I am very impressed with what i saw of Kenny Anderson's performance @ Philadelphia. He pushed the ball very well and showed he can still ball in this league. 

I just want to see Austin get some more minutes.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: no way*



> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> Detroit is nothing man. Im telling you. With the way Artest is playing, the sky is the limit. I don't fear anyone in the west. The west is too hollywood.
> 
> I love to see these tough western teams like the Kings take a road trip east and get beat up. Look at the Kings.. A loss in NY, Boston, ex.
> ...


No the West is still better than the East. Remember the only team under .500 right now in the West is 3-4 Memphis. Atlanta, Miami, Orlando, New York and Cleveland are all worse than the worst team in the West as of *right now*.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Nice avatar. You've gotta be pretty tall to be sneaking your head up on Jermaines like that. I too think we can and will make the Finals. We're a very tallented team who just needed disipline to make it to the next level. RC brout us that. Out East, the Pacers and Pistons have the best chance to make a challenge in the finals. The Nets have a great chance of making the finals, but their style of play has proved to be futile in a 7 game set against a west conf champ.


----------



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*I agree*

I believe that Rick has brought far more than just a coaching scheme, he has gotten guys to play their specific roles, and roles that they do well. Artest has been playing so well because he shot selection has been great, and he is playing usually against a smaller opponent. I think Rick was responsible for the acquisition of Kenny Anderson as well? If so, why the hell not. Who wouldn't want a court general like KA running the club? the man can hoop.


----------



## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

*Re: no way*



> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> Detroit is nothing man. Im telling you. With the way Artest is playing, the sky is the limit. I don't fear anyone in the west. The west is too hollywood.
> 
> I love to see these tough western teams like the Kings take a road trip east and get beat up. Look at the Kings.. A loss in NY, Boston, ex.
> ...


Nets, Pacers, Pistons, and Hornets -- one of those four teams will be the team to come out of the East... barring injuries. The Pistons are nothing? What makes Philly so great that you anoint them Eastern Conference Semifinalists?


----------



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*well*

because nobody can stop Iverson. Who is detroit gonna put on Iverson? Thats right, nobody. The Sixers have beaten the Hornets everytime in the playoffs. 

If Robinson plays tough, the chances are even better


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

*Re: well*



> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> because nobody can stop Iverson. Who is detroit gonna put on Iverson? Thats right, nobody.


I'm sorry I have to be the one to inform you of this, but one man can't win a championship. 

Detroit is going to put nobody on Iverson? Well that certainly would be foolish. Rip Hamilton chased him around the court pretty well in the playoffs last year and you know what? They won the series 4-2. And Detroit has gotten better.

Despite what NBA marketing may have you believe- name quality of superstars isn't as important as having a solid team.

Detroit and Indiana are the only eastern conference teams with a frontcourt strong enough to contend with the West. They both play great defense, but I think Detroit would have a better chance of the two simply because they have more scorers. If Artest has an off night for Indiana they better pray they play great defense- where as the Pistons have 6 guys averaging at least 10 points a game and then one more at around 9.5


----------



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: Re: well*



> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm sorry I have to be the one to inform you of this, but one man can't win a championship.
> ...


Well

If you actually read what I said, I did mention a guy by the name of Glenn Robinson. I mean, HE IS AN NBA ALL-STAR. There aren't too many All-Stars on the Pistons are there? Oh wait my bad there is only one, Ben Wallace. So before you comment, read what I have to say. If Glenn Robinson picks it up, it will be more than just Iverson. 

When was the last time the pistons won a championship? Have they even made the NBA Finals since the Bad Boy Eras? Nope Didn't think so.. The sixers were Eastern Conference Champs, with JUST IVERSON. So sorry Mike, hate to burst your bubble. None is saying they will be champions, i just dont see Detroit as doing much damage there myself.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

I agree here about the Sixers. Never count them out. Iverson is the best there is at turning it up and putting a team on his shoulders IMO. You just never know when hes going to go off for 50. And if GRob gets it together, they are definatly front runners this year.


----------



## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: well*



> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> 
> 
> Well
> ...


What a joke of a post. A Sixers fan asking when the last time the Pistons won a championship. I'm glad you have 2 all-stars to the Pistons 1. How about the rest of the team, how do they match-up?


----------



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*thanks*



> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> I agree here about the Sixers. Never count them out. Iverson is the best there is at turning it up and putting a team on his shoulders IMO. You just never know when hes going to go off for 50. And if GRob gets it together, they are definatly front runners this year.


THANK YOU MAN.

Atleast you have the knowledge to give credit when it's due. 


Good man!!


I mean, who is there to fear? Tayshaun Prince- Damn hes someone to worry about tearing a team up. Okur? 

Please, Hamilton is the only threat, and thats the truth. And with Larry Brown coaching You wont see any development with the rookies. At the time of the sixers finals run, they had a pretty veteran filled team.. very little rookie rolls were even used.


----------



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*thanks*



> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> I agree here about the Sixers. Never count them out. Iverson is the best there is at turning it up and putting a team on his shoulders IMO. You just never know when hes going to go off for 50. And if GRob gets it together, they are definatly front runners this year.


THANK YOU MAN.

Atleast you have the knowledge to give credit when it's due. 


Good man!!


I mean, who is there to fear? Tayshaun Prince- Damn hes someone to worry about tearing a team up. Okur? 

Please, Hamilton is the only threat, and thats the truth. And with Larry Brown coaching You wont see any development with the rookies. At the time of the sixers finals run, they had a pretty veteran filled team.. very little rookie roles were even used.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

I think Okur will be developed even under a cronic rookie bencher like Brown. Okur has been playing well and skilled big men are hard to come by in this league. I see him being a pretty good player by seasons end.


----------



## TLR (May 28, 2003)

I love Okur as a player. He is the kind of solid role player you need to win a championship. Before this season started I didn't think he was any good because I saw him miss a game winning layup in the playoffs against the Nets. But he was a rookie in the ECF. It could have happened to anyone. This year he has been very solid. An above average rebounder and is instant offense in the post.


----------



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*im sorry*

But the whole point of this post was about Indiana and how they can take the west. 

If the Pistons make it to the Finals, say goodnight. They wont get there, and they don't belong there. Not a chance.


----------



## TLR (May 28, 2003)

I was making a comment about Okur. Sorry I didn't live up to yuor standards of always sticking to the same subject. I forgot that you are God and the master of this board, and I am but a loyal clone. Sorry to disappoint you, master.


----------



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*easy man*

easy there man... take a chill pill. I just dont want this to turn into a post that goes totally off topic. 

easy man.

you need a hug. my bad.. calm down buddy.


----------



## TLR (May 28, 2003)

No problem here, I just felt like you were trying to police me or something (kind of what Petey has been known to do) which really bugs me. But, let's move on.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: well*



> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> 
> 
> Well
> ...


Glenn Robinson has made the all-star game twice. And the last time was 3 season ago. Chauncey Billups will be an all-star before Robinson is an all-star again. In fact I'd be willing to wager Robinson will NEVER be an all-star again.

Big name players and all-stars don't mean ANYTHING. How many all-stars did the Spurs have last year? Just one. How about the Nets? Just one. The Pistons have a ton of guys how can flat out play- and just because you don't have a player with a big shoe contract doesn't mean you can't win games.

And I think it is relevant and on topic because I think the Eastern Conference Finals will be the Pistons and Pacers this year. Philly will surprise me if they get out of the first round. 

Jermaine O'Neal and Ben Wallace are the two best big men in the east and the only two who can stand up to everyone not named Shaq.


----------



## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

I just find it weird that you down the Pistons for having one All-Star, then pump the Pacers up who also have *1* All-Star... You are contradicting yourself. Before you say Artest could be an All-Star this year, I could say so is Billups... It's just makes no sense to bring up the one All-Star point to discredit the Pistons and pump up Indy....  Great argument Like I said earlier the Pacers, Pistons, Nets, and Hornets, and maybe the 6ers have a shot, but the top 4 are the first 4 I named.= and I think any of those for could make it.


----------



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*ha*

"Chauncey Billups will be an all-star before Robinson is an all-star again. In fact I'd be willing to wager Robinson will NEVER be an all-star again."

Hey everyone Chauncey Billups will be an NBA All-Star!!! Hes better than Glenn Robinson.

That is kind of funny, contradicting yourself. 


And also, you willing to eat some crow? 

"The sixers won't make it out of the first round"

Ok man, I am gonna save this post. We'll see how far Detroit goes too. haha


----------



## TLR (May 28, 2003)

IMO there is Indiana and Detroit and then there is the rest of the east. They're on different levels.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

*Re: ha*



> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> Hey everyone Chauncey Billups will be an NBA All-Star!!! Hes better than Glenn Robinson.
> 
> That is kind of funny, contradicting yourself.


Where did I contradict myself?

And Chauncey Billups IS better than Glenn Robinson. I don't see your point.


----------



## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

*Re: Re: ha*



> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Where did I contradict myself?
> ...


He doesn't have one... it's called babbling. Usually I don't resort saying such things, but when a guy says the Pistons are nothing because they have one All-Star and the he pumps up another team with one All-Star it just doesn't make sense and you won't get the point because there is none.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Lets get back on topic here. His post was originaly supposed to be about how the Pacers stack up against west teams. Lets get back on track. Everyone has voiced their oppinions on the other teams making it, so its a moot point now anyways.


----------



## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> Lets get back on topic here. His post was originaly supposed to be about how the Pacers stack up against west teams. Lets get back on track. Everyone has voiced their oppinions on the other teams making it, so its a moot point now anyways.


You're right... I apologize for being one of the posters in the thread who got off subject, but I do feel the Pacers have a shot of getting to the Finals. It would really help if Scott Pollard decided to show up and become some type of a factor.


----------



## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

*Re: thanks*



> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> 
> 
> THANK YOU MAN.
> ...


I never really thought of it that way, but when I think about it, the Pistons don't really have a threat. They just have a solid team unit where everybody is above average rather than somebody really good and a bunch of loseres.


----------



## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: ha*



> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> He doesn't have one... it's called babbling. Usually I don't resort saying such things, but when a guy says the Pistons are nothing because they have one All-Star and the he pumps up another team with one All-Star it just doesn't make sense and you won't get the point because there is none.


You should take that as a complement. It means that you have proved you are right, like in that topic where I was debating Tinsley vs. Billups, once Jvanbusk started babling, I knew that he had nothing. So, my point is, that you don't need to get mad about that.



> IMO there is Indiana and Detroit and then there is the rest of the east. They're on different levels.


Nets and Hornets are looking good too.



> Where did I contradict myself?
> 
> And Chauncey Billups IS better than Glenn Robinson. I don't see your point.


You didn't contradict yourself but Robinson is better than Billups, so his pointing out how it is almost laughable how you think Billups is better. [NOTE: that's my guess, I don't want to put words into his mouth.]


----------



## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: ha*



> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> You should take that as a complement. It means that you have proved you are right, like in that topic where I was debating Tinsley vs. Billups, once Jvanbusk started babling, I knew that he had nothing. So, my point is, that you don't need to get mad about that.


For crying out loud, you thought Tinsley was a top 10 point guard last year. And then you proclaimed that he might of forgot how to play this year, so he's no longer a top 10 point guard. Give it a rest. That is a terrible argument. Not even the most hardcore Pacers fans on this board will agree that Tinsley was a top 10 point guard last year. And for the last freaking time, your logic made absolutely NO SENSE.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> You're right... I apologize for being one of the posters in the thread who got off subject, but I do feel the Pacers have a shot of getting to the Finals. It would really help if Scott Pollard decided to show up and become some type of a factor.


Not a problem. Its not a big deal for a thread to stray abit, but this was turning more into an argument about the sixers and pistons. 
I agreed with most of the statements made. Theres and obvious pack in the east who have the chance of making it, and then there is the rest.


----------



## Scott (Jan 15, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ha*



> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> For crying out loud, you thought Tinsley was a top 10 point guard last year. And then you proclaimed that he might of forgot how to play this year, so he's no longer a top 10 point guard. Give it a rest. That is a terrible argument. Not even the most hardcore Pacers fans on this board will agree that Tinsley was a top 10 point guard last year. And for the last freaking time, your logic made absolutely NO SENSE.


Tinsley is a top ten pure point guard. But he is not even a decent defensive player. His jumper is broke. That makes him NOT a top ten player playing the point guard position, not even top 20 but he is young and if he can develop a jumper or some kind of defense he can be a top 10 player playing the point guard position because his court awareness is not a learned ability, it comes natural to some.

So all together I agree with jvanbusk about Tinsley, but he has the ability.

On the Billups/Robinson debate: I personally would rather have Billups.


----------



## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ha*



> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> For crying out loud, you thought Tinsley was a top 10 point guard last year. And then you proclaimed that he might of forgot how to play this year, so he's no longer a top 10 point guard. Give it a rest. That is a terrible argument. Not even the most hardcore Pacers fans on this board will agree that Tinsley was a top 10 point guard last year. And for the last freaking time, your logic made absolutely NO SENSE.


So now stats and how a player fits onto a team makes no sense?! Ok, still trying to figure that out. On the contrary, you were the one saying assist to turnover ratio is not important stat for a PG. 

That's the end of that so this topic doesn't get too far off topic again.


----------



## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ha*



> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> So now stats and how a player fits onto a team makes no sense?! Ok, still trying to figure that out. On the contrary, you were the one saying assist to turnover ratio is not important stat for a PG.
> ...


:laugh: 

It was a joke because you only used stats that strengthened your argument, and based it on who had the best stats in a certain category. Therefore, this is what happened:

Player A:
20 PPG
4.3 RPG
7 APG
0.1 BPG
1.25 SPG

was worse than,

Player B:
8 PPG
3 RPG
7.1 APG
0.15 BPG
1.3 SPG

Because player B was better in 3 out of 5 categories. Tell me that is not terrible logic with a straight face.


----------



## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

You forgot to mention Turnovers per game, assist to turnover ratio, and minutes per game.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Here's a post I made awhile ago:



> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Have fun this year when Carlisle forbids your team from fast breaking and forbids your point guard from calling any of his own plays- the stuff extended scoring droughts are made of.


You guys kind of laughed at me at the time, but it IS Carlisle's biggest weakness.

The Pistons lost to the Nets in the playoffs last year because they would go 5 or so minutes at a time without scoring a point- and it happened a lot.

Tonight the Pacers almost blew the game by letting NY go for 24 unanswered points.

Rick's control freak nature makes for a well disciplined defensively strong team, but I really he needs to start putting more trust in his point guard. He calls literally every play, every possesion from the bench. While this ensures that the offense will get run, I really don't like the fact that it puts the onus on the coach to recognize where the ball should go. Because Rick is so insistent on running the offense the way he wants it down, it really takes away the point guards abilitity to improvise when the offense isn't working and recognize who and where the ball needs to go to.

Basically, if the defense gets Rick's tendencies figured out it really handicaps the teams offense. This can go unnoticed and unexploited in the regular season, but once playoffs come around and coaches really start hitting the film and you see the same team multiple nights in a row this can become huge. Defenders simply figure out what Rick wants to do which makes it hard for the offense. Like I said, this is how the Nets beat the Pistons last year- they had their offense dialed and Chauncey didn't have enough freedom to try to make decisions based on what he saw and not what Rick saw.


----------



## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> You forgot to mention Turnovers per game, assist to turnover ratio, and minutes per game.


http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44275&highlight=tinsley+billups

I'm sorry you did include minutes per game. Like that's a big freaking deal. I see nothing about turnovers though, which is a statistical category that Tinsley is one of the worst in the league. I'm done with this petty argument. Tinsley is not a top 10 PG. If he was a top 10 PG last year, the great Rick Carlisle would not be benching him this year.


----------



## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Here's a post I made awhile ago:
> 
> You guys kind of laughed at me at the time, but it IS Carlisle's biggest weakness.
> ...


Dude that sounds like sour grapes to me. Open your eyes man, Detriot WASN'T A GOOD OFFENSIVE TEAM. Carlisle couldn't get on the court and shot baskets! We have a much better offensive team, much quicker, more youth. Carlisle is a genius. 

Defenses "figure out Rick's tendencies" hahaha riiiiiiiiiight......... in the Eastern Conference finals lol. Dude, only 4 teams make the East Finals and 2 teams make the east final. He lost because, simply, you DIDN'T HAVE THE TELENT. It was NOT COACHING, it was the LACK OF PLAYERS which is why you got eliminated.

BTW, Carlisle is such a bad coach, that he got us BIG road wins in Detriot, in New Jersey, in Philadelphia and we KILLED a very good Seattle team. 

Just please stop sounding so jealous, it's getting really old. When we're kicking your butt in mid-season, you excuse will be "sure you're #1 in the east, but he's ruined Tinsley's career, who could have been a Isiah Thomas let you to a title" blah blah blah.

Bottom like: Carlisle is a genius. You know it, i know it, everyone knows it. JUST LOOK AT WHAT HES DONE WITH DET AND WITH US SO FAR!! Doesn't take a geniusto figure out, but unless you're biased, then it's really hard to look at it in a fair way.


----------



## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Basically, if the defense gets Rick's tendencies figured out it really handicaps the teams offense. This can go unnoticed and unexploited in the regular season, but once playoffs come around and coaches really start hitting the film and you see the same team multiple nights in a row this can become huge. Defenders simply figure out what Rick wants to do which makes it hard for the offense. Like I said, this is how the Nets beat the Pistons last year- they had their offense dialed and Chauncey didn't have enough freedom to try to make decisions based on what he saw and not what Rick saw.


Just one question to you. Does this statment also count for Larry Brown? 

You know how many times Brown had awsome Pacers teams which failed to reach the final? You know how many times Brown's teams failed to get to the final in Philly with good teams? Only once Brown made it to the finals, and how many more years has he been coaching then Carlisle?? 

So i guess, based on your sour grapes and your silly statments, both our teams have horrible coaches!


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Wow, in child-like fashion you completely missed the point of my post.

I was pointing out that extended scoring droughts were a realy problem that plagued Detroit all season last year and eventually ended up killing them in the playoffs. You couldn't say anything for certain because you didn't know if it was Rick or the team.

Now Rick is in Indiana and the Pacers have had the same problem with extended scoring droughts. 24 unanswered points by the Knicks last night.

This isn't sour grapes our jealousy or any of that other crap you made up. This is a legitamate knock on Rick Carlisle (and in my opinion the only knock). His offense just gets stagnant at times, it happened in Detroit and it's happening in Indiana. I think Rick could fix this problem by placing more trust in his point guard. Remember, Rick is only a third year coach, if you think he has everything figured out already you are crazy, and I really think if he wants to develop as a coach he needs to give more freedom and responsibility to his players.

Nobody is calling anyone a horrible coach here, get off it.

It doesn't look like I'm the one being biased here. If you choose to view Carlisle as a wonderboy genious and don't want to even consider the fact that, despite being a great coach, he may have some faults and things he needs to work on then don't even bother replying.


----------



## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Wow, in child-like fashion you completely missed the point of my post.
> 
> I was pointing out that extended scoring droughts were a realy problem that plagued Detroit all season last year and eventually ended up killing them in the playoffs. You couldn't say anything for certain because you didn't know if it was Rick or the team.
> ...


Great post Mike...:clap: I was going to say much of the same.


----------



## TLR (May 28, 2003)

Yeah he should put more trust in Anthony Johnson when we are the #1 team in the central division and eastern conference this year. I think Carlisles plan is working just fine.


----------



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*why?*

Why??? Why Anthony Johnson? This guy has no experience.

Kenny Anderson has more game, and knowledge. He will help this team more


----------



## TLR (May 28, 2003)

I was being sarcastic. Kind of hard to tell though.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TLR</b>!
> Yeah he should put more trust in Anthony Johnson when we are the #1 team in the central division and eastern conference this year. I think Carlisles plan is working just fine.


Detroit was the #1 team in the central division and eastern conference last year too. None of that matters in the palyoffs though. 

Like I said, this kind of thing won't hurt you in the regular season to much, but come playoff time it CAN be a factor.

I'm not trying to bring Rick or the Pacers down, it's just some constructive critisicm.


----------



## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Wow, in child-like fashion you completely missed the point of my post.
> 
> I was pointing out that extended scoring droughts were a realy problem that plagued Detroit all season last year and eventually ended up killing them in the playoffs. You couldn't say anything for certain because you didn't know if it was Rick or the team.
> ...


I'm just tired of Detriot fans crying and moaning like little babies about Carlisle. He let a bad team (on paper) far into the playoffs and gave you guys tons of things to cheer about in the regular season. You've made your point a million times, so just quit it already, noone cares about what Detriot fans think about Carlisle. I'm MORE THEN happy to have him in Indiana. I'd prefer him over Larry Bird, Isiah Thomas OR Larry Brown as coach. It's only my opinion. 

Knicks went on a 24-0 run, which is PATHETIC i agree, BUT why didn't you mention how we were killing the Knicks before the run? Or how Carlisle took a TO and yelled at the guys and after we killed them again? But, the last time i looked, a win was a win? Wrong? 

We went into Madison Square Garden, played a bad team, but a rival non the less, and beat them. But i guess you just gotta look at the negatives. 

Anyways, enjoy your season and we'll enjoy ours. Cuz like i said, everytime you speek about Carlisle, i can't stop laughing because you sound like a kid in a candy store whos mom won't buy you any candy.


----------



## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm just tired of Detriot fans crying and moaning like little babies about Carlisle. He let a bad team (on paper) far into the playoffs and gave you guys tons of things to cheer about in the regular season. You've made your point a million times, so just quit it already, noone cares about what Detriot fans think about Carlisle. I'm MORE THEN happy to have him in Indiana. I'd prefer him over Larry Bird, Isiah Thomas OR Larry Brown as coach. It's only my opinion.
> ...


You sound like the one that's crying... We understand Pacer fans are MORE than happy about Carlisle, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have weaknesses -- every coach does. It's just like the people who come on our board and criticize Brown and the people who have been saying we are bad on paper for the past three years, they are going to be there so you have to deal with. Besides he said Carlisle was a good coach and believe we are fine with Brown as our coach. Too many behind the scenes things going on with Carlisle. He wasn't the right coach for us, but maybe he is the right coach for you guys.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm just tired of Detriot fans crying and moaning like little babies about Carlisle. He let a bad team (on paper) far into the playoffs and gave you guys tons of things to cheer about in the regular season. You've made your point a million times, so just quit it already, noone cares about what Detriot fans think about Carlisle. I'm MORE THEN happy to have him in Indiana. I'd prefer him over Larry Bird, Isiah Thomas OR Larry Brown as coach. It's only my opinion.
> ...


Once AGAIN you COMPLETELY missed the point of my post.

I am NOT crying or moaning about Carlisle.

I do NOT think he is a bad coach. In fact I would call him a GREAT coach.

But even GREAT coaches have weaknesses. 

I've watched Carlisle coach over 100 games, so I think I have a handle on what kind of coach he is, and if you would actually READ what I am saying instead of getting all defensive for no reason you would perhaps learn something about him that you could look out for in games.

I'll restate my point very clearly for the learning impared:

Carlisle calls every play from the bench- this insures the offense stays disciplined and gets executed the way he wants. Last year at times the Pistons offense went stagnant, the ball was going to the wrong people, and scoring droughts ensued. There was a question as to whether this was the players or the coaches fault.

This year the Pistons have not had a problem with extended scoring droughts, there have been stretches where they shoot a very low percentage, but never multiple minutes without a bucket. Under Carlisle, the Pacers HAVE suffered from this problem early in the season. It hasn't cost them any games yet, but if it continues, at some point in the season it WILL. You can't honestly be happy with the fact that you blew that big of a lead and let the game come down to the last 3 seconds.

Question for Discussion: Should Carlisle give his point guard more freedom when the offense starts to fall apart like this? Or do you think the problem lies somewhere else and where.

Do Not: Respond with childish posts about crying jealous fans, because none of that is going on here.


----------



## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44275&highlight=tinsley+billups
> ...


See: http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=718799#post718799

Tinsley is actually on the better end of spectrum regarding turnovers.

Minutes per game do matter, because Tinsley gets the least amount of time to get stats.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Here is some supplemental reading for the point I have been trying to get across. Looks like McCosky has been reading my posts.

Article 

Snippet of the article:


> If you watched the Pistons during their 1-3 trip West, you might think my assessment overly optimistic. It may be. But, at 6-4, with a new coach, new system, two new starters and a reconfigured bench, I think the Pistons are ahead of schedule.
> 
> Think about this: The Pistons under Rick Carlisle were a scripted team. After two years of running the same plays and playing the same style of defense, it became second nature, like muscle memory.
> 
> ...


----------



## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

^^^

Maybe, good thing we have Jermaine to dump it to when the play doesn't go as planned.


----------



## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Once AGAIN you COMPLETELY missed the point of my post.
> ...


In the off-season it was fun to discuss how Carlisle would be a bad fit in Indiana and such, but i'd think a good start would kill those talks, and i was wrong because we're still talking about it.

Does Carlisle have weaknesses? YES! I know he does. But, i do not buy that fact that his weaknesses that he had with Detriot, will cost the Pacers also in the playoffs. We're two completely different teams. Carlisle needed to change his style and the players need to adjust. 

I do not think Carlisle is a god or anything, however, not playing younger players or because Knicks went on a huge run doesn't mean one bit to me. Because, where were those weaknesses vs Det or vs NJ? As good as we are, we will be even better once Jonathan Bender returns, and every report i'v read or heard, Bender looks like he will breakout big time this season. 

Another thing, before the season, people knocked Carlisle because he won't get along with Artest and then everyone knew for a fact he wouldn't get along with Artest after the Bulls pre-season game, when in fact, Carlisle and Artest are real close and any talks of a Artest trade is just laughed off right now. All i am saying is, Carlisle is showing he's a awsome coach because he changes styles to fit the team he has. 

Same goes for the offense. The offense has looked more then good so far. 

The reason why i am getting all over you guys now over this Carlisle thing is this, i know where this is going. If the Pacers win and go deep in playoffs, it will be "Yeah well he wasted young telent Croshere and Tinsley, great coaches dont waste young telent" or if we lose in East Semi's or East Final i'll be hearing "We told you so!" and stuff like that. 

I honestly wish you guys luck with Brown, i liked Brown when he coached us, but i'd seriously prefer Carlisle over him. If his style loses us the 2nd round game vs New Jersey or whatever, sure i'll be mad, but it will be alot better then losing in 1st round or not even making the playoffs, which would have happened if Isiah Thomas or Brandon Malone were coaching.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

I've never thought Carlisle would be a bad fit for Indiana, exactly the opposite actually. I also could care less if Croshere or Tinsley plays.

I'm just saying I think Rick's total control style works tremendously in the regular season, but in the playoffs the lack of improvisation and the slowness to make adjustments can start to hurt. It CAN cost teams games, not saying it necessarily will, but it's at least something to look at and look for.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Article 

Looks like Kenny Anderson and Jermaine O'Neal agree with me too.

Add Frank Hughes to the list of writers reading my posts.



> "He's real detailed," said Anderson, who played for Carlisle when Carlisle was an assistant at New Jersey and Portland. "He knows what he wants; he wants to simplify everything.
> 
> "Everybody, everybody in the world has faults, stuff they have to work on. But I don't think he is going to change too much because it was successful two years in a row in Detroit."
> 
> ...


----------



## TLR (May 28, 2003)

Did you ever think maybe you guys just have better offensive players this year? And maybe it has nothing to do with the coaches. Any team that has a starting front court of Michael Curry, Cliff Robinson, and Ben Wallace is going to struggle to score from time to time. This year you guys are a much better offensive team. Carlisle would probably do just as good or better with the weapons you have this year.


----------



## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TLR</b>!
> Did you ever think maybe you guys just have better offensive players this year? And maybe it has nothing to do with the coaches. Any team that has a starting front court of Michael Curry, Cliff Robinson, and Ben Wallace is going to struggle to score from time to time. This year you guys are a much better offensive team. Carlisle would probably do just as good or better with the weapons you have this year.


Ben Wallace has looked like a completely different player on the offensive end. 

And by bunching Robinson in with Curry and Wallace you are making it sound like Robinson wasn't a good scorer. 

We are a much better offensive team because we've added one player, Elden Campbell? No, our offense has looked completely different with the way we get up and down the floor, and look for the extra pass. 

But, since Carlisle is a god, I'm sure we would have done better. No question about it.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Detroit definately has better offensive personel this year, but I'm not really talking about Detroit.

I'm talking about Rick Carlisle and his style of offense. I'm not even really condemning him for it, just saying if he wants to grow as a coach it might be a good idea to give some degree of freedom to his point guard. I mean, Kenny Anderson has been in the league a long time, he can definately handle the decision making aspects of the game.


----------



## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

I must say that the Piston fans have proved their point (about Carlisle, not Tinsley pretty well).


----------



## TLR (May 28, 2003)

yes, mike does make a good point about Carlisle not giving his point guard enough trust but I fail to see the connection between that and success and the playoffs. And I was making a point about someone saying that the Pistons are scoring more with Brown. Well no duh. Brown doesn't play the slow down half court game that Carlisle does and you guys do have a lot more weapons. Prince and Okur are a lot more polished.


----------



## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> I'm just saying I think Rick's total control style works tremendously in the regular season, but in the playoffs the lack of improvisation and the slowness to make adjustments can start to hurt. It CAN cost teams games, not saying it necessarily will, but it's at least something to look at and look for.


Based on what??? Because he didn't win a ring with Detriot in 2 seasons?

We got a different style, different players and someone who Detriot didn't have, a player who can completely take over a big game over and his name is Jeramine O'Neal.

All coaches have different styles and tactics, Carlisle's is control and it wins for him. He's got no rings to show for it, but he's been a head coach for how long?


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> 
> 
> Based on what??? Because he didn't win a ring with Detriot in 2 seasons?
> ...


Based on what? Actually watching basketball games, and watching how, once playoff time came around, the Pistons offense started to sputter and stall 2 years in a row. Defenses knew exactly where they wanted to go with the ball and they never ran to try to get easy buckets. Jermaine has even said he wants Rick to loosen the reigns a little and let them run more because he recognizes the importance of easy baskets. I'm not saying you can't win like this, it just makes things harder than it needs to be.

And I would argue that Chauncey Billups can completely take over big games. Two 40 point games against Orlando last year while facing elimination. Can't argue with that.


----------



## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Based on what? Actually watching basketball games, and watching how, once playoff time came around, the Pistons offense started to sputter and stall 2 years in a row. Defenses knew exactly where they wanted to go with the ball and they never ran to try to get easy buckets. Jermaine has even said he wants Rick to loosen the reigns a little and let them run more because he recognizes the importance of easy baskets. I'm not saying you can't win like this, it just makes things harder than it needs to be.
> ...


Watching playoffs for 2 years doesn't prove anything. Maybe his system just didn't work well with the players Detriot had? Maybe it will work better with players Indiana has? If it happens 2 years in Indy, then i'll say you're right. Until then no way. 

Because i can say the same things about Larry Brown and such.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

No, the system worked GREAT in Detroit with the players he had. His stall ball system is the reason we won 100 game in two seasons. The playoffs are a COMPLETELY different animal though, and stall ball simply is not as effective as it is when teams are unprepared for it in the regular season. When you are in the playoffs, and teams are ready for you, you have to win with your athletes, and not your gameplan. All I'm saying is, Carlisle needs to start giving a little more control to his athletes so that, come playoff time, if stall ball isn't working, he has the option of opening it up a little bit.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Lets put this pointless arguing to rest. We wont know how we do in the playoffs until we actualy see some games. So lets wait until then and continue this when both sides have seen how he coaches Indy in the offseason.


----------



## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

*Re: ha*



> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> "Chauncey Billups will be an all-star before Robinson is an all-star again. In fact I'd be willing to wager Robinson will NEVER be an all-star again."
> 
> Hey everyone Chauncey Billups will be an NBA All-Star!!! Hes better than Glenn Robinson.
> ...


Looks like Mike Luvs KG and a couple of the other Pistons fans were right...

On a serious note, I think it's down to Indiana and Detroit as to who is making it out of the east with NJ in third. NO has been eliminated because of their poor play as of late.


----------

