# Playoff Watch



## Causeway

Since our current Celtics are on the golf course or roaming around Yonkers...anyone watching the playoffs?

How about the Warriors taking game one from Dallas. 33 and 14 from Byron Davis. I think that's 6 in a row for GS over Dallas. Don Nelson - hell of a coach.

And the Lakers are done. Makes me happy. As stated on SI "Kobe Bryant was hot so he kept shooting. But when he went cold he kept firing and it proved costly".


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## BackwoodsBum

I loved watching the Warriors whip the Mavericks even though I like Dallas and still expect Dallas to win the series. I have always liked Nelson as a coach and think he got a bum deal in Dallas so it was nice to see him go back there and beat the Mavs. Cuban looked absolutely furious!!!


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## Causeway

Agreed. It's equally fun to see Kobe and the Lakers lose - and the Suns are a blast to watch.


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## BackwoodsBum

Causeway said:


> It's equally fun to see Kobe and the Lakers lose



AMEN!!!:yay:


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## aquaitious

It's funny how much of a problem the Warriors are to the Mavs.


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## E.H. Munro

aquaitious said:


> It's funny how much of a problem the Warriors are to the Mavs.


Yes, Davis with 33/14/8. Why is it that Danny never manages to trade for guys like that? :biggrin:


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## mrsister

The Suns were a joy to behold last night. When they get going, they really get going. If the Mavs get past Golden State and the Rockets (I think the Jazz are done) and make it to the conference finals, and the Suns get past the Nuggets or Spurs (the Lakers are done), I think the Mavs will have a tough time. I think the Suns are deeper and have more people who can step up. I also think they're better than the Pistons who I think will likely win the East unless the Bulls continue their tear.


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## Premier

The Suns and the Rockets each have a great shot at the title. They have been very impressive.


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## Causeway

Watching the Suns last night was some of the most fun I've had watching pro hoops in a long time. It really is just beautiful team basketball. Clearly the Suns have more talent than the Lakers, but it's interesting to watch the fluid way the Suns play team ball, vs. the Kobe led mess LA puts on the floor.


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## Premier

Kobe cannot depend on Odom. The Lakers should've given up Bynum for Kidd during the deadline and should make a run at KG this offseason. Kobe is the best player in the league, but he cannot shoot the Lakers to more than two victories in a seven game series. He needs help.


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## Causeway

Kobe is the most talented player in the NBA. But he's also the most stubborn and has yet to learn it's a team game. As I've said, PHX has more talent. But LA still does not play well as a unit.


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## E.H. Munro

Premier said:


> Kobe cannot depend on Odom. The Lakers should've given up Bynum for Kidd during the deadline and should make a run at KG this offseason. Kobe is the best player in the league, but he cannot shoot the Lakers to more than two victories in a seven game series. He needs help.


You would think that Kupcake would have learned from Dr. StrAingelove's (bad) example. Teams were willing to deal established talent for Andrew Bynum, but Kupcake's terrified that Bynum will pan out elsewhere. It's almost comical how fiercely this paranoia has gripped NBA front offices.


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## Premier

Causeway said:


> Kobe is the most talented player in the NBA. But he's also the most stubborn and has yet to learn it's a team game. As I've said, PHX has more talent. But LA still does not play well as a unit.


For sixty games, he sought to get his teammates involved. In the last twenty regular season games, Phil Jackson determined that the most productive strategy for the Lakers was to make Kobe carry the team to victory. He is their most effective scorer, so it makes sense to look to him rather than someone that is less likely to score.


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## Causeway

Kobe will, yet again, "win" the scoring title this season. This did not happen in just the last 20 games of the season.


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## Premier

He was behind Carmelo before his streak of 50+ and he finished two points ahead of Carmelo. His points per game rose 2.5 points over the last twenty games. I would say that is a change in offensive strategy.


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## Causeway

Premier said:


> He was behind Carmelo before his streak of 50+ and he finished two points ahead of Carmelo. His points per game rose 2.5 points over the last twenty games. I would say that is a change in offensive strategy.


So he went from the 2nd highest scorer in the league - behind Carmelo by exactly one half of a point - to the highest scorer in the league by 2 points. Yes he cranked up his scoring even more, but the "change of strategy" based on your numbers is to go from scoring a lot, to scoring even more. Hardly, as you said, spending 60 games trying to "to get his teammates involved", and then changing.


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## Premier

Scoring an average of about seven or so points per game more than your current average indicates a change. Also, Jackson and Bryant both have quotes on this subject [from about a month ago] and let's just say that they do not agree with you.


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## Causeway

I am not disagreeing that Phil (and Kobe) decided to make a change. The point is that the big "change" in strategy was to go from Kobe scoring a LOT (.5 off the league high in fact) to scoring even more. What is there for Phil and Kobe and you to not agree with?


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## Premier

Kobe is definitely the best player in the league. His offensive talent is unbelievable.


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## Causeway

There is a difference between most talented and best player. Kobe is the former. But I have to give LA props for the win last night. I went to bed expecting another blowout win for the Suns.


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## Premier

He may not be the most valuable, but he's definitely the most talented _and_ the best.


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## Causeway

Definitely not MVP. 

Define best.


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## Premier

He is the greatest player in the NBA in terms of production and talent.


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## Causeway

Personal production? Yes. But it's a team game. If he learns this, he could be the best.


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## Premier

His assist rate is better than good passers such as Joe Johnson, Ben Gordon, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony, etc.


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## Causeway

17 points and 23 assists for Nash tonight??? Amazing.


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## Premier

What's more amazing is that fifteen of those assists came in a single half.


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## Causeway

Always have to one up me, huh Prem?


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## AmericanGod

I'm sure if the Suns weren't killing LAL Nash would've easily broke the 30 assist mark. I don't think people appreciate just how talented this man is.


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## Causeway

Hey Antoine, Hey Payton, how's that veteran leadership working for you now? Defending champs swept in the first round. Chumps.

I'm sticking with Phoenix. Any team whose third best player, Marion, goes for 22 and 11 has a chance. Their D still is suspect, but they just might be able to run all the way to a title. Love watching that team. 

Dallas - Dirk has all the talent, but the fact that Dallas is down 3-1 can no longer be just about talent. Dirk needs someone to lead that team, because he is not the one. And an MVP is a leader. The series is not over, but it sure looks that way.

Baron Davis was unstoppable. Golden State is another fun team to watch.


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## mrsister

The Mavs have been really disappointing. They don't seem to be playing with any sort of energy or urgency, especially Dirk. If there's any question who is the MVP - Nash or Nowitzki - it should be answered by now. Dirk just isn't playing well, and he's not demanding the ball like he should. He hit those 2 threes at the end of the game, but that was the first time he's been clutch, and it was too little too late. He just seemed to be watching while Stackhouse and Terry hit the important shots. Yes, the Warriors are covering him closely, but if you're the best player on the team, you should work to get the ball regardless. I still think the Mavs are the better team, but the Warriors just seem to want it a lot more. If the Mavs pull it together, they could still win the series, but the Warriors are just ready to pounce on any weakness they can find and probably deserve to win the series. I almost think the Celtics (with Pierce) could have done just as well as the Mavs.


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## Causeway

Tracy McGrady with 26 points and 16 assists, Yao with 21 points and 15 rebounds - and the Rockets take a 3-2 lead over the Jazz. That is a great seriers.


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## mrsister

Dirk finally did what he should have done a lot sooner. He was amazing those final 3 minutes. On the other hand, it should never have come down to that. They blew a 21 point lead. Maybe they've been watching the Celtics.


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## E.H. Munro

mrsister said:


> Dirk finally did what he should have done a lot sooner. He was amazing those final 3 minutes. On the other hand, it should never have come down to that. They blew a 21 point lead. Maybe they've been watching the Celtics.


They're having the same problem Detroit did last year. They haven't played an important game in a month, while the Warriors fought their way into the playoffs winning 15/20 (16/21, but I refuse to count the game that Dallas threw to put the Warriors in the playoffs over the Clippers). The Warriors were ready for the postseason, the Mavs weren't ready for Golden State's intensity. Talent-wise the Warriors are a match for anyone, at least since they unloaded Junior DunMurphy on Indiana and got back two very valuable players, Jackson's been a godsend for them. If they get by Dallas they have a shot at making the finals. They have quality depth to keep up with anyone, and the speed to wear out Houston or San Antonio. I had Denver as my "If they get out of the first round they could really do some damage" team, but Golden State's even better.


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## Causeway

Sorry, Dirk, you're no MVP



> *--Stern:* "Well, Dirk, maybe the playoffs didn't turn out the way you planned, but for 82 meaningless games during one of the worst seasons of my 23-year tenure, you were the best player in a terrible league. Unfortunately, voting for the award happens right after the regular season, so voters weren't able to factor in your complete meltdown in Round 1 against Golden State. You didn't just fail to step up like an MVP should, you whined and complained the entire series, disgraced your teammates and embarrassed your fans. Not since David Hasselhoff has America been so embarrassed by a German. I don't know whether to hand you this trophy or smash it over your head. Lucky for you, this is being televised, so I can only hand you the trophy and congratulate you on the 2006-07 Most Valuable Player Award. I'm going to leave now so I can throw up."


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

So...


to those that said Dirk is the MVP...Steve Nash says hello from the 2nd round


and to those who said theyd rather lose 60 games than be the 8th seed in the playoffs...Golden State says hello from the 2nd round


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## Causeway

Wow, that was a beat down. How about Stephen Jackson? Huge game from him, and lockdown D on the over-rated Dirk. The Dirk/Nash debate is should clearly be over.


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## Causeway

Wow, that was a beat down. How about Stephen Jackson? Huge game from him, and lockdown D on the over-rated Dirk. The Dirk/Nash debate should clearly be over.


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## aquaitious

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> So...
> 
> 
> to those that said Dirk is the MVP...Steve Nash says hello from the 2nd round
> 
> 
> and to those who said theyd rather lose 60 games than be the 8th seed in the playoffs...Golden State says hello from the 2nd round


The NBA says hello to "Regular Season MVP that has nothing to due with playoffs."

And clearly I'd rather be the 8th seed of the playoffs, because the Celtics will create a ton of match up problems and outcoach all the other opponents.


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## Causeway

Nash had just 2 fewer assists than the LAKERS in that series. He's amazing. 

Dirk coasted in April (which by the way is during the regular season). He was not prepped for the playoffs. He does not deserve to be MVP.


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## mrsister

The second half of that game was like watching the Harlem Globetrotters against the Washington Generals. Golden State was doing whatever they wanted, and the Mavs were totally lost out there. I swear they looked no better than the Celtics - poor defense, poor ball movement, trying to shoot threes every time to get out of the hole. I don't know how the best team in the regular season could look so incredibly bad. Yeah, Jackson's threes were demoralizing, but a good team shouldn't get flustered that easily and not have any answers. It'll be interesting to see if the Warriors can do that in the next round. I think they have a shot against the Rockets or Jazz. Not so sure about the Suns or Spurs, though.


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## E.H. Munro

mrsister said:


> The second half of that game was like watching the Harlem Globetrotters against the Washington Generals. Golden State was doing whatever they wanted, and the Mavs were totally lost out there. I swear they looked no better than the Celtics - poor defense, poor ball movement, trying to shoot threes every time to get out of the hole. I don't know how the best team in the regular season could look so incredibly bad. Yeah, Jackson's threes were demoralizing, but a good team shouldn't get flustered that easily and not have any answers. It'll be interesting to see if the Warriors can do that in the next round. I think they have a shot against the Rockets or Jazz. Not so sure about the Suns or Spurs, though.


They haven't played an important game in a month. Literally. Same thing happened to the Pistons last year. They also made the mistake of throwing a game to the hottest team in basketball to avoid playing the Clippers. So AJ will probably be canned, and with good reason. However, one thing I will note, for all those people that called Dallas a 60+ win team with or without Dirk, how good did they look when Golden State put a lockdown defender on him and hit him every direction? The rest of that all time great squad didn't look all that good, did it? If the Mavs had someone like Amare or Marion (or dare I say, _both_), it probably wouldn't have been a problem. But, what they have is basically a better version of the 2002 Celtics (one all star, and a collection of supporting characters of varying quality). So Golden State did to them what teams used to try and do to O'Brien's Celtics. Throttle the good guy and make the rest of them win the game.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

aquaitious said:


> The NBA says hello to "Regular Season MVP that has nothing to due with playoffs."
> 
> And clearly I'd rather be the 8th seed of the playoffs, because the Celtics will create a ton of match up problems and outcoach all the other opponents.



ok then...dirk can have the mvp...nash will just take the championship...im sure nash has no problem with that trade off

and im no talking about this current celtics team....im talking about a celtics team that would actually be good enough to win half its games and make it to the 7th or 8th seed...too bad we have to imagine what it would be like to have a team that was good wnough to get the 8th spot in the east...


and you know what...i actually hope dirk gets the mvp now because he will be under that much more scrutiny for winning the "Regular Season" MVP and not even bein able to bring his team out of the first round...he will never ehar the end of it if he wins the mvp hahahahaha


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

ehmunro said:


> But, what they have is basically a better version of the 2002 Celtics (one all star, and a collection of supporting characters of varying quality)




i dont know how good your memory is eh...but the 2002 celtics had 2 superstars and a collection of supporting characters...not one all star


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## Premier

No, the '02 Celtics team had one all-star, one decent to good player, and an average supporting cast.


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## E.H. Munro

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> i dont know how good your memory is eh...but the 2002 celtics had 2 superstars and a collection of supporting characters...not one all star


Kenny Anderson never qualified as a superstar, and he was mostly cooked by 2002. :bsmile:


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

Premier said:


> No, the '02 Celtics team had one all-star, one decent to good player, and an average supporting cast.



omg...i cant even believe i have to defend this...we are talking about 2002 antoine not 2007 antoine...THE GUY STARTED THE ALL STAR GAME IN 2002...HOW WAS HE "ONE DECENT TO GOOD PLAYER"???? im not even geting in this arguement...you wont call him an all star on the 2002 team yet he started the all star game that year hahaha










hmmm...whos that number 8 standing in the abckround...o wait theres another celtic there too...one, two!!


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## DaBosox

Considering your name AW#1, I'm obviously taking your post with a grain of salt. But you are right, in 2002 he was a scoring threat, better than good passer, and could demolish any slower big off the dribble.


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## silverpaw1786

Causeway said:


> Kobe will, yet again, "win" the scoring title this season. This did not happen in just the last 20 games of the season.


Are you implying that people like Michael Jordan and Jerry West were not team players because they led the league in scoring?


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## silverpaw1786

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> So...
> 
> 
> to those that said Dirk is the MVP...Steve Nash says hello from the 2nd round
> 
> 
> and to those who said theyd rather lose 60 games than be the 8th seed in the playoffs...Golden State says hello from the 2nd round


I would rather lose 60 games than be in the 2nd round if you're not going any further (which GS is not).

The idea is still to win a championship.


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## silverpaw1786

ehmunro said:


> They haven't played an important game in a month. Literally. Same thing happened to the Pistons last year. They also made the mistake of throwing a game to the hottest team in basketball to avoid playing the Clippers. So AJ will probably be canned, and with good reason. However, one thing I will note, for all those people that called Dallas a 60+ win team with or without Dirk, how good did they look when Golden State put a lockdown defender on him and hit him every direction? The rest of that all time great squad didn't look all that good, did it? If the Mavs had someone like Amare or Marion (or dare I say, _both_), it probably wouldn't have been a problem. But, what they have is basically a better version of the 2002 Celtics (one all star, and a collection of supporting characters of varying quality). So Golden State did to them what teams used to try and do to O'Brien's Celtics. Throttle the good guy and make the rest of them win the game.


Despite AJ's meltdown in the playoffs he will not be fired. He has the best winning percentage of any active coach and a comical voice.


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## Causeway

No I am saying Kobe is selfish and got what he asked for. He did not want to share. Now that the Lakers got rid of Shaq to make Kobe happy, Kobe is complaining that the Lakers need more talent. Comical.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

Causeway said:


> No I am saying Kobe is selfish and got what he asked for. He did not want to share. Now that the Lakers got rid of Shaq to make Kobe happy, Kobe is complaining that the Lakers need more talent. Comical.




bingo :biggrin:


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## E.H. Munro

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> bingo :biggrin:


Not quite. The animus ran both ways. The Lakers couldn't keep the two players together, and didn't want to lose Bryant to the Clippers (which was where he was going if the Lakers didn't re-sign him). So they elected to go with the younger guy and traded Shaq. At the time I said they would have been better off trading Bryant to the Clippers for Brand & Maggette (in a sign & trade), but they elected to deal Shaq, instead. Note, however, O'Neal's rapid decline, because that's what frightened the Lakers. At the end of the day, the Lakers never had the option of keeping both players, Kobe & Shaq had stopped talking to one another during training camp that year (largely due to Kobe's panicking under questioning by Colorado police and accidentally involving Shaq in his legal difficulties). Kupcake didn't make a terrible deal for Shaq (certainly not on par with some of Danny's bloomers), but he failed to follow the trade up effectively; for example, trading Caron Butler (a good power 3) for a roleplayer like Kwame Brown and nothing else. He has held onto Odom until Lamar's value has declined (because his game hasn't really progressed since his breakout season in Miami, and now he's in the outyears of a near-max deal). LA's failure has been largely in the front office (c.f. Kupcake's refusal to trade Andrew Bynum to either Minnesota for Garnett or New Jersey for Kidd).


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

ehmunro said:


> Note, however, O'Neal's rapid decline, because that's what frightened the Lakers.



the "decline" that led to him getting ANOTHER championship in miami??? what has kobe done since shaq departed???

they could have kept both players if they wanted...just like krause could have brought back jordan, pippen, rodman, jackson and the rest of the 98 champ bulls if he wanted to...they didnt want to tho and both decisions led to the demise of dynasties


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## Premier

Miami won because of Wade. Shaq is a good second option.


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## Causeway

Shaq's stats are in decline, but not his leadership. Wade won nothing before Shaq got there. And Kobe, even with all his scoring titles, will win nothing with out a #1 leader.


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## Premier

Wade was a rookie before Shaq got there and the Wade-Shaq tandem didn't even reach the Finals until Wade became an elite guard in '05-'06.

Give Kobe an equivalent to '05-'06 Shaq, let's say '05-'06 Yao, and the Lakers would dominate.

Also, since when is Shaq a leader? Hopefully he doesn't lead by example, as the Heat would all be out of shape. Oh, wait...


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## Causeway

Umm...Kobe had more than just the eqivalent of Shaq. He had Shaq. But that meant sharing the spotlight and the ball - Kobe could not shoot 40 times a night, or whatever, back then. Clearly the spotlight was more important to Kobe than the championships he was winning with Shaq. 

Shaq leads teams to banners - what he cares about. One team he lead to multiple rings. And he led a second team to a title. Kobe without Shaq may be in shape, but no titles.


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## E.H. Munro

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> the "decline" that led to him getting ANOTHER championship in miami??? what has kobe done since shaq departed???


I'm sorry, are you seriously telling me that Shaq's the same player he was three years ago? Their fear was having to rebuild around the player you see out there today. I said at the time they traded the wrong guy, though. And I still feel that way.



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> they could have kept both players if they wanted.


Bryant was a free agent, Shaq demanded an extension and that the team be rebuilt around him. The two players hadn't spoken any unnecessary words to one another in months. Given the animus between the two, the Lakers couldn't keep them both in the same locker room. They had to pick one. They simply chose the wrong one, and didn't follow the trade up effectively.


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## Premier

Causeway said:


> Umm...Kobe had more than just the eqivalent of Shaq. He had Shaq.


I see three championship rings on Kobe's finger. They helped each other win.



> Shaq leads teams to banners - what he cares about. One team he lead to multiple rings. And he led a second team to a title. Kobe without Shaq may be in shape, but no titles.


Kobe does not enjoy the same supporting cast that Shaq does.

By the way, how many teams has Shaq been on without an elite wing player?


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## Causeway

Premier said:


> I see three championship rings on Kobe's finger. They helped each other win.


Yes they did. A fact Shaq understood and Kobe did not. Miami was on Shaq's short list for a reason.



Premier said:


> Kobe does not enjoy the same supporting cast that Shaq does.


Who's fault is that?



Premier said:


> By the way, how many teams has Shaq been on without an elite wing player?


Again - Shaq has no problem sharing if it leads to winning. Shaq understands that no one can do it on his own in the NBA.

You honestly think the fact that Shaq is no longer in LA has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Kobe, even though they were winning, did not like sharing the ball and the spotlight with Shaq?


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## Premier

You're overestimating Kobe's influence. Shaq and Kobe were not going to play with each other. That meant that one of them had to leave. The Lakers selected the younger, more talented player in Kobe.

Mitch Kupchak's fault.


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## Causeway

I might be overestimating Kobe's influence. But you are clearly underestimating it, or not acknowledging it at all. Mitch Kupchak was not working in a vacuum. The reasons for the problems between Shaq and Kobe had nothing to do with Kupchak. Kobe had a role in that. Big role.


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## Premier

Mutual dislike, stemming from, as ehmunro noted, Kobe blurting out Shaq's infidelity during the alleged rape investigation.


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## Causeway

That was not where it stemmed from. Their dislike started well before Kobe sold Shaq down the river. That was just the final straw.


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## Premier

Okay, so that is solely or primarily Kobe's fault?


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## Causeway

According to you it was the GM's fault. 

But which part are you asking about - Kobe selling Shaq out? Yes that's all on Kobe.


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## aquaitious

Causeway said:


> According to you it was the GM's fault.
> 
> But which part are you asking about - Kobe selling Shaq out? Yes that's all on Kobe.


I may have possibly missed something, but Kobe selling Shaq out?


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## Premier

No, I said the current state of the Lakers' supporting cast is Kupchak's fault. Simple reading comprehension.

I then went on to state that the Kobe-Shaq feud was mutually created.


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## Causeway

This entire conversation is about the current state of the Lakers. Simple logic. 

The fued stemmed from Kobe's unhappiness with being #2, and exploded with the Colorado sell-out. 

Agua: Kobe sold Shaq out by telling the entire country, and in turn Shaq's wife, that Shaq had affairs and paid off the women to keep them quiet.


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## Premier

Causeway said:


> The fued stemmed from Kobe's unhappiness with being #2, and exploded with the Colorado sell-out.


Assumption, much?


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## E.H. Munro

Premier said:


> Assumption, much?


****ing enormous assumption considering that the transcripts made note of the fact that Kobe suffered a complete meltdown under questioning.


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## Causeway

Fine Prem - if you are saying it's all "stemming from...Kobe blurting out Shaq's [alleged] infidelity during the alleged rape investigation" - please explain who is at fault for that?


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## Causeway

--


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## Premier

I improperly phrased that post, but that does not excuse your opinions in the subsequent posts.

Edit - I didn't realize there was a question, but I currently hold the opinion that the relationship had deteriorated for quite some time. In that particular situation, Kobe is at fault, but please do not state that Kobe forced Shaq out of Los Angeles when Shaq likely had more leverage within the team.


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## Causeway

Edit - question responded to. And I am not looking to be excused.

If Shaq had the leverage, he'd be in LA and not Miami.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

Premier said:


> By the way, how many teams has Shaq been on without an elite wing player?



i know there is much more to this thread and i dont want to jump in the middle...but i just HAVE to post about this part...prem you think that every one of the "elite" wing playes shaq has played with was by coincidence??? penny was elite because of shaq...kobe won championships because of shaq and wade was good but not "elite" before shaq got there...having shaq MAKES those guards elite...not saying they wouldnt be great players without him, but you can see in the case of kobe...sure hes elite without shaq, but what has he done without him??? shaq has a monsterous influence on the wing players around him...even in his current older age


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## aquaitious

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> i know there is much more to this thread and i dont want to jump in the middle...but i just HAVE to post about this part...prem you think that every one of the "elite" wing playes shaq has played with was by coincidence??? penny was elite because of shaq


Penny would have continued being "elite" if it weren't for his constant injuries.



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> kobe won championships because of shaq


Can't you make the exact same case the other way around?



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> and wade was good but not "elite" before shaq got there


How many years did Wade spend in the league before Shaq got there again?



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> shaq has a monsterous influence on the wing players around him...even in his current older age


Sherlock.


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## Causeway

aquaitious said:


> Can't you make the exact same case the other way around?


Yes except the simple fact remains - Shaq has won a ring without Kobe.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

Causeway said:


> Yes except the simple fact remains - Shaq has won a ring without Kobe.



i was just about to post this word for word...haha...great minds think alike:cheers:


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## Causeway

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> i was just about to post this word for word...haha...great minds think alike:cheers:


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## Causeway

20 points and 16 assists (with the 6 stitches in his nose) for Steve Nash last night in a HUGE game 2 win last night.



> It was fourth time in his career that Nash had at least 20 points and 15 assists in a playoff game. *That's the most such games for any active player. *Allen Iverson is the only other active player with more than one 20/15 game in his playoff career. Iverson has two.


MVP! MVP! MVP!


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## aquaitious

Causeway said:


> Yes except the simple fact remains - Shaq has won a ring without Kobe.


Another simple fact is that Shaq had this guy called Dwyane Wade, an elite wing player, while Kobe had Kwame Brown.



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> i was just about to post this word for word...haha...great minds think alike:cheers:


Hardly.


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## Causeway

aquaitious said:


> Another simple fact is that Shaq had this guy called Dwyane Wade, an elite wing player, while Kobe had Kwame Brown.


Please see my discussion with Prem on why Shaq plays with Wade, while Kobe has Kobe.



aquaitious said:


> Hardly.


Oh, they do.


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## aquaitious

Causeway said:


> Please see my discussion with Prem on why Shaq plays with Wade, while Kobe has Kobe.


Because Kobe didn't want to resign with the Lakers unlessed they shipped out Shaq and Shaq wasn't going to play of the Lakers because he wanted to be shipped out??

It was a mutual thing, both franchise players wanted the team for themselves. Kobe got what he wanted, Shaq got his wish.

I don't believe Kupchak proposed any trades for Garnett and Kobe said "oh no, we don't want him taking my shots."


EDIT: Also, did I mention that Shaq had ANTOINE WALKER on his team?


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## Causeway

aquaitious said:


> EDIT: Also, did I mention that Shaq had ANTOINE WALKER on his team?




EDIT: Having Walker on the team, and STILL winning a ring - advantage Shaq!


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## Premier

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> prem you think that every one of the "elite" wing playes shaq has played with was by coincidence???


Yes. Shaq obviously has a great impact on the game; he is definitely the most dominant player of the last twelve years or so. However, let's not discredit the individual talent of Hardaway, Bryant, and Wade.



> penny was elite because of shaq


An injury-free Penny was an amazing player with or without Shaq.



> ...kobe won championships because of shaq


Shaq and Kobe won their three Lakers championships because of each other.



> and wade was good but not "elite" before shaq got there...


He was a rookie before Shaq got there. Wade without Shaq produces about the same as Wade with Shaq.


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## Causeway

24 points and 15 _assists _for the Should-Have-Been 3-Time MVP Steve Nash - and a HUGE win last night over the Spurs! This has become the best playoff series in years. Catch it if you can - great stuff.

EDIT: oops!


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

hahaha causeway you got me runnin to nba.com to see the boxscore...i was like HOW did nash get 15 rebounds?! lol...i figured u meant assists anyway...but what a game...the suns are great and the spurs are dirty theres no doubt about it


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

so...uhh...who said a while back that they wouldnt trade al jefferson for carlos boozer? lol...the kid is the best player in this years playoffs so far


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## Causeway

A rule is a rule - but it's a seriously flawed rule. In anyevent, hearbreaker last night for the Suns. Hopefully at least it will go to 7 games.


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## E.H. Munro

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> so...uhh...who said a while back that they wouldnt trade al jefferson for carlos boozer? lol...the kid is the best player in this years playoffs so far


I think they're pretty comparable players (in the sense that Jefferson is a poor man's Boozer at the moment). Neither of them are anything to write home about defensively. Both seem injury prone. A swap looks like a lateral move at this point. At the year's start I would gladly have turned Jefferson & Sczcerbiak into Boozer. At this point I'd rather see what develops out of the lottery before making any moves. Oden, obviously, makes Jefferson expendable in a deal for a power forward. Durant, on the other hand, does not.


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## DaBosox

ehmunro said:


> I think they're pretty comparable players (in the sense that Jefferson is a poor man's Boozer at the moment). Neither of them are anything to write home about defensively. Both seem injury prone. A swap looks like a lateral move at this point. At the year's start I would gladly have turned Jefferson & Sczcerbiak into Boozer. At this point I'd rather see what develops out of the lottery before making any moves. Oden, obviously, makes Jefferson expendable in a deal for a power forward. Durant, on the other hand, does not.


It's unbelievable to think that anyone would act on a trade/personnel/strategy issue until you know the type of players you're going to get in a loaded draft.

Oh wait....


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## Causeway




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## DaBosox

Causeway said:


> DaBosox - welcome to the board! It is refreshing to have someone who may not have the same opinion, but can say it in a respectful and intelligent way. Stick around!


Glad to see we all hold ourselves to the highest of standards! 

I've been looking for a good game of mental solitaire, so keep it coming.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

Causeway said:


>




not takin sides in this di\scussion...but thats just hilarious hahahaha

causeway youve been waiting for a reason to use that i can tell :biggrin:


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## Causeway

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> not takin sides in this di\scussion...but thats just hilarious hahahaha
> 
> causeway youve been waiting for a reason to use that i can tell :biggrin:


:biggrin: 

Anyway...it clearly looks like a SAS/DET finals.


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## Causeway

Damn the Spurs are good. It was a surreal night watching that lottery, and then watching the Spurs demolish Utah. That is one well oiled machine. As good as Duncan is, the Spurs play team ball as well as anyone.


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## mrsister

I say we trade Wally, Veal, Ratliff, Kandiman, and Telfair for Duncan. Five players for just one! What a deal! How about Doc and Ainge for Popovich? Let Pierce be GM. He couldn't do any worse.


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## Causeway

Cavs in the finals. Would not of bet on that this year.


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## aquaitious

Causeway said:


> Cavs in the finals. Would not of bet on that this year.


I was actually looking at the "Where do the Celtics rank against the East" thread I started before the season and I had the Cavs as the 1st seed, and Detroit as the 2nd. 

What do I win?


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## Causeway

You get to watch the Cavs in the finals instead of another Pistons final.


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## aquaitious

Causeway said:


> You get to watch the Cavs in the finals instead of another Pistons final.


Alright!

Although, even though I wanted the Cavs to win, I don't think they'll be as good as a matchup vs the Spurs as the Pistons may have been.


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## Causeway

Agreed. I don't think the Cavs have a shot - but, I will watch and see if LeBron can will them to some W's.


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## Causeway

We'll see what the ratings will be - probably very low - but I am looking forward to tonights game.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

i disagree causeway...if the pistons made it to the finals i would say yea noone would watch it, including me, but since the finals have the face of the NBA in lebron, a 22 yr old superstar...in his first finals...i think MANY more ppl are interested and would want to watch these games just to see how he does...i can just speak for myself in that i will definitely be watching every game of this series since the cavs made it and if the pistons made it i would be watching sportscenter in the morning to see how the games went


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## Causeway

Good point AW - we'll see if it translates to ratings. I will be watching. And it is Lebron. But it's also still CLV and San Antonio. We'll see!


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## aquaitious

#1AWF will account for one million viewers by himself.


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## Causeway

Looks like it was pretty much me and #1AW watching the game. Historically low ratings for game 1.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

haha...i was wrong...guess theres a first time for everything :biggrin:


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## E.H. Munro

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> haha...i was wrong...guess theres a [strike]first[/strike] 7,489,632nd time for everything :biggrin:


There, corrected that for you. :bsmile:


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## Causeway

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> haha...i was wrong...guess theres a first time for everything :biggrin:


Big market towns pull in the #'s. Add the fact that the Spurs while a fantastic team, do not have a flashy made-for-TV star (sad but true, because they are a hell of a team), NBA #'s declining in general, and even with Lebron, it's still CLE - it's a recipe for low ratings.

But I'll be watching!


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## Causeway

This Spurs team is about a flawless as it gets.


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## Causeway

Lucky, smart, just plain good - or all of the above...either way, this is a hell of a stat: 



> "Big Shot Rob" has never not made the playoffs and has never been knocked out in Round 1.


An entire career of making it at least to the 2nd round. Amazing run. Not played for one crappy team.


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