# So is Wade officially the best player in the league?



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Who is better?


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## Petrucci (Feb 12, 2006)

Kobe Bryant is better :cheers: :clap:


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

No. He is among the top 3 players in the league. There isn't an undisputed best player in the league and hasn't been since Michael Jordan. A sound argument can be made for maybe about 3-4 players, but past that it becomes a matter of preference. Obviously Wade has made his case, but it's still rather subjective. The fact of the matter is the only reason we search for a "best player" is due to Michael Jordan because he actually was the "best player," but in today's NBA no player has clearly seperated himself across time to be considered the absolute best.

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Dwyane Wade
3. LeBron James
4. Tim Duncan
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Kevin Garnett

In my opinion Wade and LeBron are interchangeable, as well as Dirk and KG.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

I pretty much agree with ralaw, although I'd say that with a stronger next season people might scoff at the notion of putting Nowitzki ahead of Garnett. It's a tough comparison since they have very different strengths, but I think KG's poor supporting cast is all that keep him off of at least the bottom of this list.

Also, I think that coming out of this season there is a very top tier of Lebron and Kobe, in whatever order. That could easily change with additions or subtractions next season, although it's tough to imagine Lebron falling out of the uppermost group.


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## thegza (Feb 18, 2003)

No, but he is now in the elite list and has done more then LeBron or any from his draft class.

Elite is top five or so. Fair enough, I think.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Last night illustrates pretty clearly that Wade is the player that has benefitted the most from the way the game is being officiated in this era.You become a superstar,you attack the rim and the referees make you the best player in the league by sending you to free throw line over and over again whether you were fouled or not.

Wade isn't the best player in the league,but he's as good as any player in the league.He's as good as anyone,but Kirt Hinrich has proven that you can defend him a lot better than Dallas has in this series.Dallas just isn't doing a great job of defending him in this series.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

TheLegend said:


> No, but he is now in the elite list and has done more then LeBron or any from his draft class.


Yes, thanks to sharing a team logo with Shaquille O'Neal. I think that luck in teammates is the only clear edge he has over Lebron at this point.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

jericho said:


> I pretty much agree with ralaw, although I'd say that with a stronger next season people might scoff at the notion of putting Nowitzki ahead of Garnett. It's a tough comparison since they have very different strengths, but I think KG's poor supporting cast is all that keep him off of at least the bottom of this list.


I knew I was forgetting someone. KG in my mind could easily replace Dirk on my list. I believe Dirk and KG are also interchangeable.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I haven't been watching the finals, so I still have Wade outside of my top 5. I rate Kobe and Bron as the top two players in the league. And I'm pretty secure with that given it was something of a consensus only a month ago.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> I haven't been watching the finals, so I still have Wade outside of my top 5. I rate Kobe and Bron as the top two players in the league. And I'm pretty secure with that given it was something of a consensus only a month ago.


That was the consensus before Duncan ripped it up in the playoffs and had a lot of people putting him back at #1. Then people noticed Dirk was doing some serious work as well and he basically became a consensus top 5 player in the league, with a lot of people bumping KG out of the top 5 to fit Dirk in. 

I had Wade at #5 behind Kobe, Bron, Duncan and KG before the post-season started. My rankings haven't changed.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I think the top 4 at this point are Duncan, Kobe, LeBron and Wade. In no order really. Any given night one of them can be the very best player in the league. Dirk's pussified performance in the finals leaves me no choice but to keep him 2nd tier, and not 1st tier like the other 4. I would put Dirk at #5 though.


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## L (Sep 20, 2005)

I reallly dont think there is a best player.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Who is better?


Well he just moved ahead of Dirk on my list, that's for sure.

After the first round, I think I posted my list as:

Duncan
Kobe
LeBron
Dirk
Wade

Wade's a Top 4 lock for me now. And I wouldn't argue too hard with those who wanted to put him a couple notches higher.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Eh, I hate doing things like this when we're all caught up in the moment of a great performance. It'll be easier to make this decision once we get to see the rest of the league's great players playing again. I personally have Wade at #4 in the league right now. I can't see that changing before the beginning of next season.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Rawse said:


> Well he just moved ahead of Dirk on my list, that's for sure.


And yes, I have Dirk at #5 right now, so Wade is ahead of Dirk for me, too. Of course, I thought Wade was a better player than Dirk throughout the season too, so this series hasn't changed too much in my mind.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

How can you even ask this question when you already know who is better.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

higher than dirk for sure


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## TwiBlueG35 (Jan 24, 2006)

Kobe Bryant is a definite better player. Other than Kobe, I can't think of anyone who is better than Wade. But I can think of around a dozen who are comparable to Wade, all in the same level. The thing Wade does is not too impressive, most of the time he only drove to the basket and dunk or drew fouls. He could rarely make a jump shot with two pairs of arm in front of him, that makes me reconsider his ability to shoot. And also he is too accustomed to do pump fake to draw fouls. Oh yes Kobe is the master of this skill but I don't like to see Kobe do that too frequently also. Frankly, I do not think Dwayne Wade can get into the playoff singlehandedly(that is, without other elites' helps), let alone NBA Final.


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## Jesus_Walks (Jul 11, 2004)

TwiBlueG35 said:


> Kobe Bryant is a definite better player. Other than Kobe, I can't think of anyone who is better than Wade. But I can think of around a dozen who are comparable to Wade, all in the same level. The thing Wade does is not too impressive, most of the time he only drove to the basket and dunk or drew fouls. He could rarely make a jump shot with two pairs of arm in front of him, that makes me reconsider his ability to shoot. And also he is too accustomed to do pump fake to draw fouls. Oh yes Kobe is the master of this skill but I don't like to see Kobe do that too frequently also. Frankly, I do not think Dwayne Wade can get into the playoff singlehandedly(that is, without other elites' helps), let alone NBA Final.


wade lead his team to the finals as a rookie.. what are u talkin about


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## DaGreat1 (May 18, 2006)

TwiBlueG35 said:


> Kobe Bryant is a definite better player. Other than Kobe, I can't think of anyone who is better than Wade. But I can think of around a dozen who are comparable to Wade, all in the same level. The thing Wade does is not too impressive, most of the time he only drove to the basket and dunk or drew fouls. He could rarely make a jump shot with two pairs of arm in front of him, that makes me reconsider his ability to shoot. And also he is too accustomed to do pump fake to draw fouls. Oh yes Kobe is the master of this skill but I don't like to see Kobe do that too frequently also. Frankly, I do not think Dwayne Wade can get into the playoff singlehandedly(that is, without other elites' helps), let alone NBA Final.


^^ lol you are the king of sarcastic remarks :clap: , you even had me believe that you were serious for a second, until i read your last sentence....haha very funny


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## L (Sep 20, 2005)

Jesus_Walks said:


> wade lead his team to the *playoffs* as a rookie.. what are u talkin about


corrected.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

He's Top 3 w/ the 2 other wing players.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Jesus_Walks said:


> wade lead his team to the *playoffs* as a rookie.. what are u talkin about





FullMetalAlchemist said:


> corrected.





Jesus_Walks said:


> Wade *played a part in the success of Miami making it * to the playoffs as a rookie.. what are u talkin about


Corrected

Wade didn't lead the team to the playoffs as a rookie. However, he did lead his team to the second round by playing well and making big baskets when his team needed them.


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## sherwin (Mar 21, 2005)

ralaw said:


> I knew I was forgetting someone. KG in my mind could easily replace Dirk on my list. I believe Dirk and KG are also interchangeable.


Dirk and KG? Come on.. KG is old news. Get with the times. He's done.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

sherwin said:


> Dirk and KG? Come on.. KG is old news. Get with the times. He's done.


KG is by no means done. He had what many people consider to be his worse season statistically and still ranked near the top in the league. The only thing that should be done as it relates to KG are his teammates and his GM Kevin McHale. Free KG!! Free KG!!


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## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

in my eyes yes. 

he's the best.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Kobe is still the best. He is more of a deadly threat from outside, mid range and 3 pt range. I'd fear that over Wade or Bron's shot any day. Kobe can make almost anything it seems from awkward angles that I don't see as often with others as I do him. He attacks as well, maybe not as often. I'd still take him over those guys.



I've always wondered during that summer when Heat made the trade for Shaq, after that great playoff performance Wade had, did they really know what they were going to get with Wade? I mean it's not like he was the player he was last 2 yrs in his rookie yr. They took a chance it seems.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

Dissonance19 said:


> I've always wondered during that summer when Heat made the trade for Shaq, after that great playoff performance Wade had, did they really know what they were going to get with Wade? I mean it's not like he was the player he was last 2 yrs in his rookie yr. They took a chance it seems.


While I really didn't get it at the time, I think that Pat Riley and Shaq actually did. I remember quotes from O'Neal that offseason to the tune of how happy he was to come play on Wade's team, and I thought he was just being polite and would soon realize how much he missed playing with a running mate of Kobe's caliber. But looking back on it, I think those close to the deal for Miami had seen glimpses of future brilliance in Wade. 

His rookie statistics are actually pretty reminiscent of Anfernee Hardaway's (though with somewhat lower rebounding numbers), and the league-wide opinion of Hardaway after his first year was that he was on track to be the Next Great Whatever. I think that well-meaning amateurs like me would have paid more attention to Wade and seen more of whatever Riley and Shaq were seeing, if we weren't so distracted by the great Lebron-Carmelo debate and the what's-up-with-Darko question.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I knew Miami wasn't going to trade Wade. You could see his brilliance was going to be there. I thought it was quite clear in '03-04.


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

He is definitely up there, in no particular order, the top 10 are

1) Duncan

2) KG

3) Dirk

4) Wade

5) Kobe

6) Nash

7) Ray Allen

8) LeBron

9) AI

10) Elton Brand


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Jesus_Walks said:


> wade lead his team to the finals as a rookie.. what are u talkin about


No Odom led the Heat to the playoffs. Wade just had a couple of good series.


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## L (Sep 20, 2005)

CubanLaker said:


> No Odom led the Heat to the playoffs. Wade just had a couple of good series.


Sign me up for that mini fro club!


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

FullMetalAlchemist said:


> Sign me up for that mini fro club!


IN. anyone else?? Just PM me.


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## CbobbyB (Feb 16, 2006)

it sure as hell aint Dirk.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> How can you even ask this question when you already know who is better.



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ

off topic, but i love your avatar. tried to rep you, but it won't let me.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Dissonance19 said:


> Kobe is still the best. He is more of a deadly threat from outside, mid range and 3 pt range. I'd fear that over Wade or Bron's shot any day. Kobe can make almost anything it seems from awkward angles that I don't see as often with others as I do him. He attacks as well, maybe not as often. I'd still take him over those guys..


Couldnt agree more, no matter what everyone say, Kobe still has the slight advantage over Wade or Lebron, the only thing I wish Kobe should do is improve his ability when to be the inititiator and when to take over the game. He showed he can do that efficiently, during the Phoenix Series. But at this rate Wade, Lebron and Kobe is just too close for skill comparison to determine whose better. Deciding factor to the eyes of the media and casual NBA fan is will who put more Wins on that W/L column.



Dissonance19 said:


> I've always wondered during that summer when Heat made the trade for Shaq, after that great playoff performance Wade had, did they really know what they were going to get with Wade? I mean it's not like he was the player he was last 2 yrs in his rookie yr. They took a chance it seems.


Yes they did, Pat Riley went political about this issue, but nonetheless they took a chance on Wade, he does possess all the tools to be a dynamic guard and they definitely made the right deal. Imagine turning down the most dominant player in the league for a rookie guard? They did just that and the Lakers took the bait.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

bootstrenf said:


> KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ
> 
> off topic, but i love your avatar. tried to rep you, but it won't let me.


hahaha thanks!


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Couldnt agree more, no matter what everyone say, Kobe still has the slight advantage over Wade or Lebron, the only thing I wish Kobe should do is improve his ability when to be the inititiator and when to take over the game. He showed he can do that efficiently, during the Phoenix Series. But at this rate Wade, Lebron and Kobe is just too close for skill comparison to determine whose better. Deciding factor to the eyes of the media and casual NBA fan is will who put more Wins on that W/L column.


I agree with this for the most part. I think Lebron/Kobe are pretty much equal as far as play right now (Kobe obviously has a vastly superior resume). It depends on whether you want a scorer/passer/rebounder or a (better scorer)/defender for your superstar. But IMO, they are about equal overall. I don't think Wade is quite there yet, because he's not the defender or scorer that Kobe is, and he's not quite the playmaker or rebounder that Lebron is. But the difference between them and Wade is miniscule. Wade is incredible, and he's been nothing short of spectacular for the last few games. And all three are clutch as hell.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> I haven't been watching the finals, so I still have Wade outside of my top 5. I rate Kobe and Bron as the top two players in the league. And I'm pretty secure with that given it was something of a consensus only a month ago.


1) U dont watch the finals
2) Rate Kobe and James
3) I hate the Cavs


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Brandname said:


> I agree with this for the most part. I think Lebron/Kobe are pretty much equal as far as play right now (Kobe obviously has a vastly superior resume). It depends on whether you want a scorer/passer/rebounder or a (better scorer)/defender for your superstar. But IMO, they are about equal overall. I don't think Wade is quite there yet, because he's not the defender or scorer that Kobe is, and he's not quite the playmaker or rebounder that Lebron is. But the difference between them and Wade is miniscule. Wade is incredible, and he's been nothing short of spectacular for the last few games. And all three are clutch as hell.


What Wade supposedly lacks in scoring ability and playmaking ability to the other two he makes up in efficiency. Kobe is extremely inefficient at times, and Lebron can be too. Wade is the most efficient wing player in the game right now, by far. You see less stupid shots from him than any wing player in the league, and that means something. I'd take Wade over Kobe anyday, and maybe over Lebron.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Couldnt agree more, no matter what everyone say, Kobe still has the slight advantage over Wade or Lebron, the only thing I wish Kobe should do is improve his ability when to be the inititiator and when to take over the game. He showed he can do that efficiently, during the Phoenix Series. But at this rate Wade, Lebron and Kobe is just too close for skill comparison to determine whose better. Deciding factor will be who puts more Wins on that column.
> 
> 
> Yes they did, Pat Riley went political about this issue, but nonetheless they took a chance on Wade, he does possess all the tools to be a dynamic guard and they definitely made the right deal. Imagine turning down the most dominant player in the league for a rookie guard? They did just that and the Lakers took the bait.



Yeah, basing it off right now I would take Kobe over Wade and Bron. It could change eventually because they're both also near the top. But to me, Kobe showed this year he was best player in the NBA. 

And yeah, didn't Kobe (or maybe it was Lakers org too) say they wanted Wade involved in a deal or something? But I don't know, if they totally knew if he was gonna be this guy. They may have thought with Shaq he could be even better. From what we've seen now, he could be a great player by himself, and it's amazing how much he scores without much of a 3 pt shot. Back when that trade happened, I thought it was a bad deal, I thought Miami had a good future with those guys and I thought if you trade half your team for Shaq you have nothing else but Shaq and Wade. But they made moves last yr and this yr which proved me wrong anyway haha. 

I wonder if Miami makes the deal if they got Brand and not Odom the summer before. Brand and Wade or Brand could be a Laker with Kobe. Scary thoughts.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

Dissonance19 said:


> I wonder if Miami makes the deal if they got Brand and not Odom the summer before. Brand and Wade or Brand could be a Laker with Kobe. Scary thoughts.


imagine if the lakers got rid of kobe instead of shaq. kobe to the clips. 5 championships minimum.

pg=livingston
sg=kobe
sf=maggette
pf=brand
c= kaman

not sure if we still woulda got radman/cassell/mobley, but honestly, who would care with a team like this? damn, what could have been.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

RoddneyThaRippa said:



> What Wade supposedly lacks in scoring ability and playmaking ability to the other two he makes up in efficiency. Kobe is extremely inefficient at times, and Lebron can be too. Wade is the most efficient wing player in the game right now, by far. You see less stupid shots from him than any wing player in the league, and that means something. I'd take Wade over Kobe anyday, and maybe over Lebron.


Well it depends on what you mean by efficient. If you mean pure fg%, then yes, Wade has a higher pure fg% than the other two. But that's a terrible measure since 3 pointers decrease your pure fg% but not necessarily your "true fg%" or efficiency because they are worth an extra point. By most measures that I've seen, Wade is certainly one of the most efficient players in the league, but he's still usually slightly less efficient than Lebron and even Kobe. Just a few examples:

*82games.com PER:*
Lebron James: 30.2
Kobe Bryant: 30.0
Dwyane Wade: 29.8

*NBA.com eff (which admittedly is a terrible stat):*
Lebron James: 29.42
Kobe Bryant: 27.82
Dwyane Wade: 26.95

*ESPN.com's John Hollinger PER:*
Lebron James: 28.17
Kobe Bryant: 28.11
Dwyane Wade: 27.68

Now obviously these aren't exhaustive stats, nor are they perfect. But they are an example of three separate efficiency stats that show the same general trend. 

The point is that all 3 players are actually about equally efficienct, regardless of reputation or perception. I'm not sure the efficiency argument is the best one to make in favor of Dwyane Wade being better than the other two.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

No. In the future, you should know to ratchet playoff hype down one notch, and get a realistic perception. Everybody was trying to put Manu in the top 10 last year because of his performance...Wade's great, but I'm still going with Lebron, Kobe, and still probably TD(at his top) over him.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

It's amazing how a bad back can completely make people forget what T-Mac did last year in that Dallas series.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> It's amazing how a bad back can completely make people forget what T-Mac did last year in that Dallas series.


T-Who?


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

I had Dirk ahead of Wade before the finals but it's become apparent to me that Wade is the better player now judging from the finals. 

My Top 5 are:
1. Kobe Bryant
2. LeBron Jamse
3. Tim Duncan
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Dirk Nowitzki


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> T-Who?


My sentiments exactly.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HKF said:


> My sentiments exactly.


 This is bump material....


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Everyone knows McGrady is great, but who can take him seriously with those chronic back problems? I hate to see such a great player affected so greatly with that kind of crippling injury, but you can't just keep giving him the benefit if he isn't out there. I love McGrady's game too, but putting him in the top 5 right now would be ridiculous. All this applies to Amare Stoudemire as well.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

John said:


> 1) U dont watch the finals


WORLD CUP! I have to sleep sometime.

World Cup>NBA Finals


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Yeah, I generally leave out the players with significant injuries (T-Mac, Amare, etc) when talking about the best players in the league. Simply because it's impossible to know how they will recover from such serious injuries. I'm worried especially about Amare. That injury is no joke, especially considering how much he relies on his athleticism to be dominant.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

there is a clear cut top 3 in the league and i dont need to tell you who they are


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

I'll take Kobe IMHO.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

No one knows what will happen with T-Mac, but that playoff was the closest thing to Jordan (games 1-6) that Iv'e seen.

THAT was still better than anything I've seen from Lebron, Kobe, or Wade.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

TheLegend said:


> No, but he is now in the elite list and has done more then LeBron or any from his draft class.
> 
> Elite is top five or so. Fair enough, I think.



Darko and Wade are clearly elite players :biggrin:


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## 36 Karat (Nov 10, 2005)

Way to sneak in the necessary Darko joke, now it's a thread.

Normally I'd be laughing at this, talking about how there is not clear cut best player in the league, etc..but I'll say this. Right now, Dwyane Wade is the best player in the Eastern Conference. Period. He has way too much going for him, and his performance is already monstruous. He does far too many things that aren't tracked by stats, that are rarely seen by LeBron (this is coming from a 'Bron fan, I treat Wade and 'Bron equally), and even Kobe.

Something we've yet to find out is whether his play will advance or diminish once Shaq leaves town. That's something we have to wait for.


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## Reign (Feb 8, 2006)

Alot of players are better and I would even add Carter and kidd, Nash


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

36 Karat said:


> Way to sneak in the necessary Darko joke, now it's a thread.
> 
> Normally I'd be laughing at this, talking about how there is not clear cut best player in the league, etc..but I'll say this. Right now, Dwyane Wade is the best player in the Eastern Conference. Period. He has way too much going for him, and his performance is already monstruous. He does far too many things that aren't tracked by stats, that are rarely seen by LeBron (this is coming from a 'Bron fan, I treat Wade and 'Bron equally), and even Kobe.
> 
> Something we've yet to find out is whether his play will advance or diminish once Shaq leaves town. That's something we have to wait for.


I think Wade can definitely adapt to long periods w/o playing w/ Shaq. Shaq has been injured too often in the last couple of yrs. Wade's proven that he could be as or even more effective w/o Shaq. His shooting %s may take a little hit when Shaq's gone b/c of the attention that the big guy attracts opens things up for everyone else. It will be tougher for Wade to get his since he will be the main focus for defenses but he'll improve & still be D Wade IMHO. The only thing that diminishes will be the wins. Obviously they won't be as great of a team when Shaq's gone. But you're right it's still not certain how he can perform consistently w/o the presence of Shaq. Questions pertaining to his health is the bigger issue IMO. He & AI take the most beating of any other players in this league. Considering his proneness to injury early in his career, will he be able to keep this aggressive play up? He's improved his shot & there will come a time he won't be able to drive relentlessly & as often. He will have to broaden his arsenal of moves & improve his ablility to get shots off over defenses so that he can preserve his health better. I'm not saying he's bad @ being able to create his own shot. I'm just saying that there is definitely room for improvement for that to reach the AI, Kobe level of scoring mentality & offensive awareness b/c he will have to carry more of the scoring load when Shaq is gone.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Dwayne (better than Kobe) Wade is a great, great player. One of the best. But, he's no Tim Duncan.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> No one knows what will happen with T-Mac, but that playoff was the closest thing to Jordan (games 1-6) that Iv'e seen.
> 
> THAT was still better than anything I've seen from Lebron, Kobe, or Wade.


Are you talking about the Dallas series last yr? T-Mac & Yao both played very well in that series. I agree that T-Mac played very Jordanesque. The only problem was that Dallas was the better team & the Rockets All-Star duo didn't get a lot of help.
Here are the stats if people have already forgotten. I'm really pulling for T-Mac to get back to prime health condition next season.
http://www.nba.com/rockets/stats/2004/conf_quarter_stats.html - T-Mac's stats


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## JVR (Apr 20, 2006)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. LeBron James
3. Tim Duncan
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Kevin Garnett


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

I think Kobe, Bron, Gilbert, Carter, T-Mac (when healthy), Allen Iverson, Paul Pierce, are all just as capable of dominating Dallas if anyone of these guys were in Wade's position playing in the finals w/ that team. If it were any of these other guys the thread would be about _____________ being the best player in the L.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Now is not the time to evaluate how a player stacks up against players that aren't even playing right now. Dwyane Wade just had a monster game last night, but I think people are forgetting that James, Kobe, Tmac, etc, have all had their late game explosions. They've all made the big plays for their teams down the stretch, in the playoffs, Kobe has made them on the biggest stage like Wade, given a team capable of making the finals, Tmac or Lebron probably would as well. From where it stands, Wade is not any better than he was 2 weeks ago or 2 months ago. Hes still the same player, great slasher with great quickness and a shaky but steadily improving jumpshot. What's new? He'll become better and better because he expands his game, not because of late game explosions or heriocs. He wasn't the best player in the league then, he didnt magically improve, so why would he be the best now? These huge outbursts from players late in pressure situations are no doubt impressive, but superstars are supposed to produce in those situations, thats why they're considered the elite. 

Dirk on the other hand, as much as I love him as a player, has... ugh... nvm....


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

Reign said:


> Alot of players are better and I would even add Carter and kidd, Nash


Quoted for shock factor. Whaaaaat!?


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Who is better?


Your best player changes every two months. Once Dirk has a big game he will become the best player again.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> Your best player changes every two months. Once Dirk has a big game he will become the best player again.


That's because the league has 5-6 guys who have damn good arguments for being the best player in the league. I try to give all of them their due when they come up big. 

Aside from that, this thread wasn't even saying Wade is the best. The thread title is a question and the content in the first post is a question. I guess you were the only one who misunderstood that. Not surprising.


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## JMES HOME (May 22, 2006)

D-wade has proved to me that he is one of the top 3 players in the league throughout these playoffs


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

ralaw said:


> No. He is among the top 3 players in the league. There isn't an undisputed best player in the league and hasn't been since Michael Jordan. A sound argument can be made for maybe about 3-4 players, but past that it becomes a matter of preference. Obviously Wade has made his case, but it's still rather subjective. The fact of the matter is the only reason we search for a "best player" is due to Michael Jordan because he actually was the "best player," but in today's NBA no player has clearly seperated himself across time to be considered the absolute best.
> 
> 1. Kobe Bryant
> 2. Dwyane Wade
> ...


well said :clap:


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## melo4life (Jun 5, 2006)

Steve Nash and Kobe Bryant are just 2 of a few that are better than wade


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

KidCanada said:


> Your best player changes every two months. Once Dirk has a big game he will become the best player again.


Frankly, the top 3 players in the league are basically interchangeable. There's no reason to badger anyone who keeps changing their mind on who the best player is when it's so close - closer than it's been any other year that I can recall.

I've maintained since close to the beginning of the season that Kobe's the best player in the league, but I'd be lying if I said there weren't times throughout when I considered LeBron. I can't fault anyone for ranking someone like Duncan or LeBron over Kobe, nor should anyone fault somebody for ranking Kobe over them. It should be easier to tell after next season, though. Then again, it could be even tougher, especially if - scratch that, _when_ - McGrady makes his triumphant return. Man, it's starting to get hard to tell who the outright best perimeter player even is, much less best overall. Remember when it used to be just Kobe vs. T-Mac all the time? Alllllll the time? Seems like just yesterday.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Drewbs said:


> Now is not the time to evaluate how a player stacks up against players that aren't even playing right now. Dwyane Wade just had a monster game last night, but I think people are forgetting that James, Kobe, Tmac, etc, have all had their late game explosions. They've all made the big plays for their teams down the stretch, in the playoffs, Kobe has made them on the biggest stage like Wade, given a team capable of making the finals, Tmac or Lebron probably would as well. From where it stands, Wade is not any better than he was 2 weeks ago or 2 months ago. Hes still the same player, great slasher with great quickness and a shaky but steadily improving jumpshot. What's new? He'll become better and better because he expands his game, not because of late game explosions or heriocs. He wasn't the best player in the league then, he didnt magically improve, so why would he be the best now? These huge outbursts from players late in pressure situations are no doubt impressive, but superstars are supposed to produce in those situations, thats why they're considered the elite.
> 
> Dirk on the other hand, as much as I love him as a player, has... ugh... nvm....


Precisely. Wade has been this great all season. He's just had some ups and downs throughout the season, just like throughout this series. 

Do you think that if we took a poll on the best player in the league the day after Kobe's 81 point explosion, that Wade would factor into that much? Probably not. It's because Kobe's performance is fresh in our minds. It's how our brains work, no big deal.

But questions like these are best served once we get a chance to see all the elite players play for a while again. We've forgotten how many players in this league are truly "unstoppable". I'd say at least 3 are consistently, with maybe 4 or 5 others who go on ridiculous streaks of unbelievable play. 

Even though Wade would be right up there in the top 5 no matter what, a question like this will undoubtedly get skewed results in the wake of a great performance.


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## ravor44 (Feb 26, 2005)

NO...just NO...


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> Everybody was trying to put Manu in the top 10 last year because of his


Hahahhahhhahhahhahahha thanks for the laugh. Seriously though Manu is good but he was never consistent enough to be top 10 good. 

Just proves fandom seems to love fads. 

But on the truth, Wade is amazing. Best player in the league? Not sure about that. Is he elite? For sure but he has been on that list ever since last year IMO. Don't forget his performance against the Pistons last year...what we see now is nothing new. Guy is simply amazing and is having as sensational of a Finals performance you can have for a first time appearence.

Kobe is still the most talented player in the league and his D pushes him slightly ahead of Lebron and Wade. 

Kobe-Lebron-Wade are all very close to each other and each can claim the mantle as best player (not named Duncan) at any given night. I said "not named Duncan" pending that Duncan can return to form for an entire season. His performance against the Mavs was as good as I have ever seen him play. I still can't believe the Spurs lost considering how well Parker and Manu played too. I guess the Spurs were just not used to opposing teams outscoring them.


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## Gospel of Wade (Jun 20, 2006)

I believe that Dwyane Wade is indeed the Best player in the NBA currently.

He has helped propel the Heat past the mighty Detroit Pistons in a playoff series (even with the flu) and so far, he is the NBA Finals MVP (If they are to win the series), even with Shaq on his team.

Those are two major things that Kobe Bryant has yet to accomplish.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

i dont think there is a best player in the league.

one day it will be lebron leading his team to game 7 against the two time defending eastern conference finals, the next it will be tmac putting up 13 points in 30 seconds, the next it will be kobe leading his team to game 7 against the 2nd seeded sun, then it will be dirk leading his team past the defending champions and into the finals by dropping 50 on the suns, then it will be wade leading his team one win within the ring.

the league is so stacked individually its amazing. I dont think it is fair to have one player above others. My question however is where does garnett fit with this equation. he has been irrevelant the last two seasons and his only value right now is fantasy.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

O2K said:


> i dont think there is a best player in the league.
> 
> one day it will be lebron leading his team to game 7 against the two time defending eastern conference finals, the next it will be tmac putting up 13 points in 30 seconds, the next it will be kobe leading his team to game 7 against the 2nd seeded sun, then it will be dirk leading his team past the defending champions and into the finals by dropping 50 on the suns, then it will be wade leading his team one win within the ring.


....then it'll be livingston and brand completing a 4 game sweep over the great but overmatched wizards team led by butler and arenas in the 2007-2008 NBA finals...


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Gospel of Wade said:


> I believe that Dwyane Wade is indeed the Best player in the NBA currently.
> 
> He has helped propel the Heat past the mighty Detroit Pistons in a playoff series (even with the flu) and so far, he is the NBA Finals MVP (If they are to win the series), even with Shaq on his team.
> 
> Those are two major things that Kobe Bryant has yet to accomplish.


I find it amusing that your attempting to use the fact that Wade played with the flu to strengthen your argument that Wade is the better player. Who cares if Wade played with the flue, does that make him a better player? If Wade played with prime Shaq (as Kobe did) he wouldn't be considered for the finals MVP. You can't conveniently place Kobe's Shaq on the same plain as Wade's Shaq and come to the conclusion that Wade is better, as the situations are entirely different. Also, the 2006 Piston's weren't mighty by any means!

Playing your game I can just as well say Wade isn't as good as Kobe because he doesn't have 3 championships. To which you'll most likely reply with "Shaq won those championships, Kobe was just there."


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

Gospel of Wade said:


> Wow, that really pissed you off, didn't it? Get your lips off of Kobe's rod. He's an Arrogant, Rapist Scumbag. And that's all his fault.
> 
> Anyone who defends Kobe Bryant is worse than a Nazi.
> 
> ...


methinks you better calm down before you get banned.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Brandname said:


> Well it depends on what you mean by efficient. If you mean pure fg%, then yes, Wade has a higher pure fg% than the other two. But that's a terrible measure since 3 pointers decrease your pure fg% but not necessarily your "true fg%" or efficiency because they are worth an extra point. By most measures that I've seen, Wade is certainly one of the most efficient players in the league, but he's still usually slightly less efficient than Lebron and even Kobe. Just a few examples:
> 
> *82games.com PER:*
> Lebron James: 30.2
> ...



There's no way Kobe is more efficient than Wade. Kobe hurts his team at times with his shot selection. Wade works hard to get to the basket and take the right shots. Is he more efficient than Lebron? I'd say yes, in terms of shot selection, but Lebron does a lot more with the ball than Wade does. In this era of basketball, you just don't see players do what Dwayne does. He doesn't have to dominate the ball to have an effect on the game. He'll pick his spots and when he does, he usually puts up a great shot. You just can't say that about Kobe consistently. I'm not saying that makes Dwayne better than Kobe, but I think it's the best case you can make for Dwayne being better. Lebron also gets sucked into stupid shots at times, and can lack aggressiveness towards the basket too. Dwayne is always aggressive. Do you honestly think Kobe and Lebron are more aggressive players towards the basket than Wade?


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

Gospel of Wade said:


> Wow, that really pissed you off, didn't it? Get your lips off of Kobe's rod. He's an Arrogant, Rapist Scumbag. And that's all his fault.
> 
> Anyone who defends Kobe Bryant is worse than a Nazi.
> 
> ...



im hoping that was sarcasm


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> There's no way Kobe is more efficient than Wade. Kobe hurts his team at times with his shot selection. Wade works hard to get to the basket and take the right shots. Is he more efficient than Lebron? I'd say yes, in terms of shot selection, but Lebron does a lot more with the ball than Wade does. In this era of basketball, you just don't see players do what Dwayne does. He doesn't have to dominate the ball to have an effect on the game. He'll pick his spots and when he does, he usually puts up a great shot. You just can't say that about Kobe consistently. I'm not saying that makes Dwayne better than Kobe, but I think it's the best case you can make for Dwayne being better. Lebron also gets sucked into stupid shots at times, and can lack aggressiveness towards the basket too. Dwayne is always aggressive. Do you honestly think Kobe and Lebron are more aggressive players towards the basket than Wade?



there is a reason for that. wade has the luxury of passing to teammates that are pretty good themselves. kobe doesn't. 

jwill/gp are better than smush
walker is better than luke

shaq is better than kwame and mihm combined

the only edge kobe has is odom over haslem...

doesn't really matter though, LBJ is better than both of them...


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

bootstrenf said:


> there is a reason for that. wade has the luxury of passing to teammates that are pretty good themselves. kobe doesn't.
> 
> jwill/gp are better than smush
> walker is better than luke
> ...


No. The reason is that Wade has a more mature game than Kobe. Yes, his teammates are better but there is still a decision to be made. Kobe too often settles for jumpshots when he could drive to the basket. Wade is constantly aggressive. That has nothing to do with teammates. 

Look at Wade's rookie year. He wasn't shocking, but he was extremely efficient, even with limited attempts. He didn't have Shaq then. On top of that, Wade's midrange wasn't even consistent at that point. There's something to be said about that.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> No. The reason is that Wade has a more mature game than Kobe. Yes, his teammates are better but there is still a decision to be made. Kobe too often settles for jumpshots when he could drive to the basket. Wade is constantly aggressive. That has nothing to do with teammates.
> 
> Look at Wade's rookie year. He wasn't shocking, but he was extremely efficient, even with limited attempts. He didn't have Shaq then. On top of that, Wade's midrange wasn't even consistent at that point. There's something to be said about that.


first off, define "mature game", and how kobe doesn't have it.

and the reason kobe "settles" for jumpers, is because aside from jesus shuttlesworth, kobe has the best jumper in the game. and it's hard to drive when you're being triple teamed constantly, and passing wouldn't be an option cause your teammates are playing like a jv girl's team.

what exactly did wade accomplish in his rookie year? if i recall, it was mostly odom that led them to the playoffs that year.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Gospel of Wade said:


> Wow, that really pissed you off, didn't it? Get your lips off of Kobe's rod. He's an Arrogant, Rapist Scumbag. And that's all his fault.
> 
> Anyone who defends Kobe Bryant is worse than a Nazi.
> 
> ...


Interesting.......it's not worth the time.........No comment. :uhoh: 



O2K said:


> im hoping that was sarcasm


Me as well O2K.....me as well! :sigh:


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

wade wasn't so efficient as a rook (53% ts%). kobe went to the basket pretty relentlessly in '05 (when he wasn't shooting the 3) - he got to the line at a similar clip as wade. not as much playing off the ball in the triangle (similar to jordan's dip when phil came on board in '90).


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Nash is a better player in a team related sense. Amare Stoudemire is a better player when completely healthy.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Gospel of Wade said:


> Anyone who defends Kobe Bryant is worse than a Nazi


Really? Worse than a Nazi? Reaaaallly?

The picture may be deemed as offensive. Your premise is commendable, however the picture has registered a complaint due to it's graphic nature.

- *Premier*


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

you should edit the pic out.

it ain't cool to use that pic to prove a point on a meaningless basketball thread.


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## g-dog-rice#2 (Jan 29, 2006)

1. Kobe - 35 ppg is unheard of; better defender than Wade or Lebron
2. Lebron - better all around game than Wade
3. Wade - always attacks, not fearful of anything
4. Duncan - dropped a notch in my book, but had a good series against Dallas
5. Dirk - risen on my list. He outdeuled Duncan in game 7 in SA; can do it all
6. Iverson - still puts up 33 and 7
7. KG - if only he were on a better team..

Those 7 are players who I consider top-tier. I would rank them in that order, with Lebron and Wade being interchangeable. I might be overrating Dirk a little bit. 

Why is Kobe number 1? Kobe is the only guy I have ever seen shut down Lebron, Wade, or T-mac. He outdeuled Lebron in a game earlier this season, with 3 clutch over him. He always gets the better of Wade whenever they play, he usually has better stats and does a decent job of staying in front of Wade. And T-mac? I've witnessed Kobe abuse him on the court too many times.

Not to mention, Kobe is more clutch than any of these guys, and a better defender...oh, and a champion!


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

CubanLaker said:


> No Odom led the Heat to the playoffs. Wade just had a couple of good series.


no!!
If was Eddie Jones that lead the team to the playoffs and Odom and Wade were huge part contributing to that.
Wade as rookie attacked the rim the same but with less attempts because at that time SVG though EJ and Odom were better so they were the 1st and 2nd option. Later on SVG gained respect to Wade and Miami then went for like 19-5 to end the season and with the 4th seed.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

g-dog-rice#2 said:


> 1. Kobe - 35 ppg is unheard of; better defender than Wade or Lebron
> 2. Lebron - better all around game than Wade
> 3. Wade - always attacks, not fearful of anything
> 4. Duncan - dropped a notch in my book, but had a good series against Dallas
> ...



speak on it rook!!!!!!


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## abwowang (Mar 7, 2006)

nice g-dog-rice#2...

however.. KG deserves to be higher on the list... we're talking about best PLAYERs in the league right?.. not whos team has the best record... 

but whatever... the biggest problem i have about your list is duncan... he shouldnt be that high.. or even on this list!!!


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

abwowang said:


> but whatever... the biggest problem i have about your list is duncan... he shouldnt be that high.. or even on this list!!!


Blasphemy. Duncan is top 5 and no worse than that.


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## blh5387 (Apr 6, 2006)

Well, I think it's safe to consider Wade the best player now. At least top 3, anyway.


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

it's kobe, wade, lebron, duncan, in no particular order. garnett is 5th but i don't think he can dominate like those other guys. if garnett had more help, he'd be up there dont get me wrong.
i'd wait til they all retire, see who has the most rings and then determine who's really the best.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Blasphemy. Duncan is top 5 and no worse than that.



Yeah, especially with what he did in these playoffs and against the Mavs too. He just didn't get enough help. Even if he didn't do that well, still you can't drop him yet anyway.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

- Kobe
- Bron
- Nash
- Wade
- Duncan


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Kobe and Bron are definetely the best players. Batman / Superman, like Kobe / LeBron. World's Finest.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Wade averaged 28/6/6/2/50%FGP this postseason and 35/8/4/47%FGP in the Finals. Yeah, he's the best player in the league currently. Better than Duncan, LeBron, Bryant, or anyone else. It's a small advantage, but you have to give it to Wade because he has had a Finals only Duncan has matched once and LeBron and Kobe have never had. Duncan, LeBron, and Kobe have had very similar overall postseasons to Wade (though LeBron has only played in one, he will have many, many more), but Wade's is arguably every bit as good even though he isn't the defender Duncan is (and Bryant less so).


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Wade has cemented himself as an elite player... but best today?

very arguable... you put Redd, Pierce, Carter in a good team and they make the finals... and chances are they'd be putting up 28+ points a game and will also garner attention as "best ever".... its ridiculous actually.

Wade is an animal, just simply incredible and fantastic... but its ridiculous everytime someone plays well or steps up... they are boosted up miles ahead of where they should be. 

The refs also "baby'd" Wade... as most superstars should, but in this case thats what stood out for me... that and his amazing play, but definitely he was also assisted greatly by the way the refs officiated the game/ last 4 games of the series.

Anyways, Game 6 was Mourning, Haslem and Walker's testament contribution in my opinion... just fantastic effort and impact.... thats what got the Heat the win in that Game.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> Kobe and Bron are definetely the best players. Batman / Superman, like Kobe / LeBron. World's Finest.


Wade can be Spiderman! The way he jumps up and throws the ball off the board a lot of times is like Spiderman throwing the webs off the buildings. 

It's weird though, because comparing to superheroes, Wade really does have the Spiderman qualities. The way he jumps and dribbles from spot to spot is really smooth but also extremely quick and he can change directions well. Then the whole backboard/building comparison. 

Kobe really does have Batman qualities too. He is a mastermind and will beat you mentally, plus he is dark and quiet for the most part. 

LeBron is like Superman too. Superhuman strength and speed. Can do everything. 

I love superhero comparisons.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

And those are actually very accurate ones Patchwork. Either cool or gay. I can't figure out which. :laugh:


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## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

Cool. Though, Sir Patchwork definitely just gave me a glimpse into what kind of person he really is.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Wade is more like Venom. Just going on how they move and body type. Spiderman is a little guy. Plus Wade doesn't have near the angst of a Peter Parker. He is beloved, not hated. Spiderman is hated. Wade doesn't have a Jonah Jameson. It astounds me how easily Wade slips under the radar. In the regular season he doesn't put up the numbers or the performances that get the scrutiny that Kobe and Lebron do. And then in the playoffs, he pretty much didn't become THE story until Kobe and Lebron had both bowed out. Has anyone ever written a critical piece on Wade? Where did he buy his free pass?


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## nguyen_milan (Jun 28, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Wade can be Spiderman! The way he jumps up and throws the ball off the board a lot of times is like Spiderman throwing the webs off the buildings.
> 
> It's weird though, because comparing to superheroes, Wade really does have the Spiderman qualities. The way he jumps and dribbles from spot to spot is really smooth but also extremely quick and he can change directions well. Then the whole backboard/building comparison.
> 
> ...


haha nice Sir Patchwork, but like EHL i dont know if its cool or not I can't figure out which :clap: :biggrin:


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

Wade was the best player during this 2005-06 season, so that gives him the title of best player in the league. Despite the focus on LeBron and Kobe, Wade's regular season was on par with theirs, and then he took it to another level in the playoffs.

But there still a small enough of a difference among the top players that I would put Wade at #3 for next season.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Obviously Kobe/Lebron don't have the teams that can compare with the Miami Heat this year, but they're still the best individual players. They can play a number of different roles for their team, and I think their versatility sets them apart in my mind.

I think Wade has done enough for me during the finals this year to jump up to #3 in the league past Duncan (for the time being).

He sits squarely behind Superman/Batman comfortably in third right now. The kid is unbelievable.


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## Sammysummer (Jan 6, 2006)

Brandname said:


> Obviously Kobe/Lebron don't have the teams that can compare with the Miami Heat this year, but they're still the best individual players. They can play a number of different roles for their team, and I think their versatility sets them apart in my mind.
> 
> I think Wade has done enough for me during the finals this year to jump up to #3 in the league past Duncan (for the time being).
> 
> He sits squarely behind Superman/Batman comfortably in third right now. The kid is unbelievable.


I totally agree. The versatility of Lebron and Kobe on their teams should show them to be at a high level.


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## flip-flop (May 17, 2005)

Wade proved that he is better than Kobe if you look at them overall... But best in tha NBA? Hard to say. Nash was MVP, Duncan is the most polished, offensively and defensively, post player and Nowitzki is most versatile and skilled big man in the league. 
However, Wade is absolutely in a good way to become one of the best players in NBA history.


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## BULLS23 (Apr 13, 2003)

He's a top 3 player no doubt . . . I think it's Kobe, Lebron, Dwayne. End of argument. However, I will say that he got a few calls in this series. I've not seen that many ghost fouls since MJ's heydays. Truly amazing . . . No disrespect to Wade, but he got too many calls IMO.


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## g-dog-rice#2 (Jan 29, 2006)

One more thing I forgot to add. Don't listen to what Shaq or the media say about Wade.
In the mid-90's, Shaq had a lovefest with Penny. Then it was "Kobe is the best player on the planet." 
Or "I love Phil Jackson." Now it's "Wade is the best player ever" or "Riles is the best coach I've ever had!"

Ridiculous. And all this talk about Wade's spectacular series against the Mavs is a little over the top. Kobe averaged 35 ppg and 6 rpg during the regular season. Wade averaged 34 and 7 against the Mavs. So Wade's "historical" Finals is only an average day for Kobe.

Kobe = best in league and a hair above Wade and Lebron


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Wade can be Spiderman! The way he jumps up and throws the ball off the board a lot of times is like Spiderman throwing the webs off the buildings.
> 
> It's weird though, because comparing to superheroes, Wade really does have the Spiderman qualities. The way he jumps and dribbles from spot to spot is really smooth but also extremely quick and he can change directions well. Then the whole backboard/building comparison.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I can go even further with it.

Kobe is self made, ala Batman. He is dark, and a complex and interesting individual. Comes from money, just like Bruce Wayne.

LeBron is Superman, cause he is gifted, and has innate basketball powers. He was raised by a set of parents that weren't his biological parents, just like Superman...and his marketing scheme is that he was sent to us to change the game and give us hope.

I too, can see the comparisons with Wade and Spider-Man. Good stuff, bud.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

sadam said:


> Wade proved that he is better than Kobe if you look at them overall...


Really now?
Do you ever watch basketball? lol
Objectively speaking, they are close, but Kobe still has a meaty edge in being the overall better player than Wade.


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## Bron_Melo_ROY (Apr 12, 2004)

Well, he's not the nest but he's definitely top 3. Its Kobe and LeBron, then Dwyane.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

g-dog-rice#2 said:


> One more thing I forgot to add. Don't listen to what Shaq or the media say about Wade.
> In the mid-90's, Shaq had a lovefest with Penny. Then it was "Kobe is the best player on the planet."
> Or "I love Phil Jackson." Now it's "Wade is the best player ever" or "Riles is the best coach I've ever had!"


This is true. Very true. He said PJ was the best, he even said Kobe was the best player ever... Shaq just has a ginormous ego, and is always talking. lol
Wade was awarded the Finals MVP, and Shaq even felt the need to take psuedo responsibility for the conceived notion that Wade is a great player. Shaq said he recognized before he came to Miami that Wade was a good player, and then he said he made him great and what he is today. (All on the stage, directly after Wade and only Wade led them to the win.) Shaq just never could get over himself.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

nguyen_milan said:


> haha nice Sir Patchwork, but like EHL i dont know if its cool or gay I can't figure out which :clap: :biggrin:


Cool, or "Gay"? And by "gay" do you mean that as a negative? You really need to up your vocab, so you don't discriminate against anybody. But what could be "gay" or bad about superhero comparisons? Superheroes rule, everyone loves them, or has loved them. That's why their films make so much at the box office, they appeal to all ages and demographics. If you let anybody else decide for you what is cool, you are a clown. lol


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> This is true. Very true. He said PJ was the best, he even said Kobe was the best player ever... Shaq just has a ginormous ego, and is always talking. lol
> Wade was awarded the Finals MVP, and Shaq even felt the need to take psuedo responsibility for the conceived notion that Wade is a great player. Shaq said he recognized before he came to Miami that Wade was a good player, and then he said he made him great and what he is today. (All on the stage, directly after Wade and only Wade led them to the win.) Shaq just never could get over himself.


I noticed Shaq's comments as well; however, right now Shaq is the media darling so his comments were overlooked. I also remember Shaq saying when he was in LA that he would retire before playing for another coach not named Phil Jackson. I like Shaq, but he tends to say what is politically correct at the moment.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

ralaw said:


> I noticed Shaq's comments as well; however, right now Shaq is the media darling so his comments were overlooked. I also remember Shaq saying when he was in LA that he would retire before playing for another coach not named Phil Jackson. I like Shaq, but he tends to say what is politically correct at the moment.


My boy ralaw comming in with the ammo for back up. You caught them too? I really did realize Shaq couldn't take being in a back seat. Even on ESPN afterwards, they are sitting there talking to both he and Wade, and the interviewer goes to ask Wade about his game and such... Shaq busts in, and is all "I speak for Wade.. etc." and while it does come off as "tongue in cheek" and funny cause Shaq was doing it... there is some realness to it. Shaq always has been an over grown child. He loves the attention. Personally, I think he didn't like it that Wade was getting all this love, and people were dissmissing Shaq cause of the way he has been playing the past few years. I'm tired of saying Shaq wanted to win it for so and so, etc. And him acting like it is his team, cause it isn't!!! It was clearly Wade's team. The Lakers could've won like this, if Shaq didn't pout and act like a baby, and would've went with PJ's plans to run the majority of everything through Kobe. But because they had bitter disputes, Shaq couldn't even fake with being content in diverting to another star player, the way he has faked it with Wade. Shaq always wants to be the center of attention. He just isn't good enough anymore to justify it.


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

Don't underestimate the talents of KG, AI, and Duncan in this discussion


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

elton brand anyone?


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

EB got game. True that.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

bootstrenf said:


> elton brand anyone?


Brand is a great player, but he is becoming overrated on these boards, which I believe is a reaction to him being underrated before his breakout statistical season. There is no way Brand should be any where near the discussion for best player in the league. He isn't even among the top 3 (4 if Amare is healthy) players at his position.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

ralaw said:


> Brand is a great player, but he is becoming overrated on these boards, which I believe is a reaction to him being underrated before his breakout statistical season. There is no way Brand should be any where near the discussion for best player in the league. He isn't even among the top 3 (4 if Amare is healthy) players at his position.



amare:26pts/9rbs/1stl/1.5blks-----------------best season
brand:25pts/10rbs/1stl/2.5blks----------------best season

yeah, i can see why you think amare is better.


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## sknydave (Apr 27, 2006)

Shaq said on the podium he wanted to play with Wade and make him better. If you don't think Shaq has a lot to offer a young player coming up in this league you're insane.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

sknydave said:


> Shaq said on the podium he wanted to play with Wade and make him better. If you don't think Shaq has a lot to offer a young player coming up in this league you're insane.



shaq is one conceited mofo. i'm surprised wade doesn't need a back replacement after carrying shaq's 350lbs *** through the finals. i think it was wade who made shaq look better than he was by taking on the mavs defense single-handedly.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

bootstrenf said:


> amare:26pts/9rbs/1stl/1.5blks-----------------best season - 4 years in the league (missing one season due to injury)
> brand:25pts/10rbs/1stl/2.5blks----------------best season - 7 years in the league
> 
> yeah, i can see why you think amare is better.


You forgot one key component, however, I fixed it for you


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

ralaw said:


> You forgot one key component, however, I fixed it for you


Will Amare ever return to the player he was after his knee surgery? That works in Brand's favor.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

ralaw said:


> You forgot one key component, however, I fixed it for you



what's your point? that elton has been way more consistent? that amare is more injury prone? you're right.
elton has been averaging 20/10 since he was a fetus.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

oops, accidental post. mods, you can delete if you want please.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

f22egl said:


> Will Amare ever return to the player he was after his knee surgery? That works in Brand's favor.


If you go back and look at my post you will see I stated, "There is no way Brand should be any where near the discussion for best player in the league. He isn't even among the top 3 *(4 if Amare is healthy)* players at his position."



bootstrenf said:


> what's your point? that elton has been way more consistent? that amare is more injury prone? you're right.
> elton has been averaging 20/10 since he was a fetus.


The point was, Amare hadn't even scratched the surface of his abilities and was putting up numbers similar to Brand's prime numbers. I am of the belief that Amare will return next year at full strength, therefore Brand won't be among the top 4 PF's in the game. Please don't turn this into me putting Brand down, as he is a great player who has been putting up 20/10 for his career albeit in losing situations.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

bootstrenf said:


> shaq is one conceited mofo. i'm surprised wade doesn't need a back replacement after carrying shaq's 350lbs *** through the finals. i think it was wade who made shaq look better than he was by taking on the mavs defense single-handedly.


Exactly. :cheers:


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

ralaw said:


> If you go back and look at my post you will see I stated, "There is no way Brand should be any where near the discussion for best player in the league. He isn't even among the top 3 *(4 if Amare is healthy)* players at his position."
> 
> 
> 
> The point was, Amare hadn't even scratched the surface of his abilities and was putting up numbers similar to Brand's prime numbers. I am of the belief that Amare will return next year at full strength, therefore Brand won't be among the top 4 PF's in the game. Please don't turn this into me putting Brand down, as he is a great player who has been putting up 20/10 for his career albeit in losing situations.





one thing, is that brand was always on teams where the opposing defenses could pretty much focus on him, cause he was the only reliable option, and he still produced.

amare had great numbers, but he was on a team full of options with nash, marion, joe, q rich, etc... where teams could not soley focus on amare. amare produced numbers in an enviroment conducive to good stats. 

you could easliy counter that amare produced on a team where touches came at a premium, because of the plethora of options, and i wouldn't have anything to say.

bottom line: both are good, but if amare is considered to be one of the best PF's, brand should be right there with him.


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

ralaw said:


> You forgot one key component, however, I fixed it for you


YOU are missing the key component, Amare Stoudemire plays with Steve Nash.

I would take Brand over Amare any day of the week.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

bootstrenf said:


> cool, understood.
> 
> one thing, is that brand was always on teams where the opposing defenses could pretty much focus on him, cause he was the only reliable option, and he still produced.
> 
> ...


Truth!



Fray said:


> YOU are missing the key component, Amare Stoudemire plays with Steve Nash.
> 
> I would take Brand over Amare any day of the week.


You have a point Nash does make players better. You know the league should consider cloning Nash and putting one version in New York for ratings reasons and another in Toronto to help in the globalization efforts. Heck maybe a third version could be made and put in New Orleans because if Nash can make a below average player like Amare average 26pts/9rbs/1stl/1.5blks he has to be able to assist in the revitalization efforts as well.


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## jworth (Feb 17, 2006)

Will say this: Wade is better than Kobe. He won a title as the only superstar on his team while Kobe won titles with a prime Shaq. Of course, that alone doesn't mean everything, especially since Wade has had some very good role playing teammates, but looking at the numbers it's hard to ignore Wade's greatness in the postseason for Miami.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

jworth said:


> Will say this: Wade is better than Kobe. He won a title as the only superstar on his team while Kobe won titles with a prime Shaq. Of course, that alone doesn't mean everything, especially since Wade has had some very good role playing teammates, but looking at the numbers it's hard to ignore Wade's greatness in the postseason for Miami.


You can't count that against Kobe, at all. It's not his fault he was paired with a prime Shaq. But it is a testement to his greatness that he won 3 of them with Shaq, and I find it hard to believe that Wade will win 3 chips in a row. And after that 2001 championship against Philly, it was pretty much Kobe's team. They were equal in leading those Laker squads, no matter what anyone says. Shaq may have been that dude kicking people's asses early in games, but it was a young Kobe killing very good teams at the end of those games. Wade is a great ball player, absolutely fantastic. But you'd have to be smoking some serious dope, to not see all the areas in which Kobe (even at an early age) was better at than Wade. Shaq may not get the numbers he did w/ Kobe, but he still has the same amount of presence on the floor, and still demands attention. Which is what made Shaq so effective originally. It wasn't b/c he was super talented. In terms of talent, I'd take Hakeem, D. Rob, and even Ewing over Shaq. It was and still is, Shaq's size and presence which allows his teammates to excel. 

If you put Kobe on this year's Heat team, they very well could've won the chip. And that isn't a discredit to Wade. He is being compared with Kobe, the best basketball player in the world. Wade is right there, biting at his feet, as the best guard in the league.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

Kobe physically and skill wised may be the best basketball player, but mentally he is far from it.


I like the Batman comparison with Kobe because he sees himself as a loner. But where Kobe falls short is the mental side of Batman. 


When I think of mentally tough I see Steve Nash. He is the epitome of mental stability and toughness.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> Kobe physically and skill wised may be the best basketball player, but mentally he is far from it.
> 
> 
> I like the Batman comparison with Kobe because he sees himself as a loner. But where Kobe falls short is the mental side of Batman.
> ...


I agree. And I see you like my Batman comparison, hehehe. Batman and how he differs from Superman is that he is pro-active, instead of re-active. Which means, he is extremely motivated and great, but does thing by his lonesome to a fault. Batman has more of a pessimistic outlook, and feels the need to control, and fix problems by himself. He doesn't trust easily.

That's where LeBron differs, and how he is like Superman. Superman is re-active, and looks to set an example and be an inspiration in the means to bring hope... where as Batman wants to bring the hope by himself, because only he feels he is capable of doing so.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> I agree. And I see you like my Batman comparison, hehehe. Batman and how he differs from Superman is that he is pro-active, instead of re-active.  Which means, he is extremely motivated and great, but does thing by his lonesome to a fault. Batman has more of a pessimistic outlook, and feels the need to control, and fix problems by himself. He doesn't trust easily.
> 
> That's where LeBron differs, and how he is like Superman. Superman is re-active, and looks to set an example and be an inspiration in the means to bring hope... where as Batman wants to bring the hope by himself, because only he feels he is capable of doing so.



I do like your Batman comparison. 

Kobe is mentally tough, but he reminds me also of Anakin Skywalker with his brooding hatred that fuels him. Kobe is fueled by doubters and hate. 

I'm trying to think of more Superhero comparisons but I can't right now. 

Wait...AK47---plastic man! Everybody knows that one.


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## smrtguy (Jun 20, 2006)

I am looking at the big picture, and I say Kobe, LeBron, and Wade in that order.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> Kobe physically and skill wised may be the best basketball player, but mentally he is far from it.
> 
> 
> I like the Batman comparison with Kobe because he sees himself as a loner. But where Kobe falls short is the mental side of Batman.
> ...



kobe is one of the smartest basketball players, if not the smartest.


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## abwowang (Mar 7, 2006)

overall... i think the best player in the league is still kobe.. 

kobe
lebron
wade

still excited to see what tmac can do next season tho...


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

jworth said:


> Will say this: Wade is better than Kobe. He won a title as the only superstar on his team while Kobe won titles with a prime Shaq. Of course, that alone doesn't mean everything, especially since Wade has had some very good role playing teammates, but looking at the numbers it's hard to ignore Wade's greatness in the postseason for Miami.


Kobe won three titles in a row with a prime Shaq and little else, relatively speaking. Wade had more help, overall. A better starting 5 and a significantly deeper team. Just as one example, the league's leading shotblocker per minutes this season by a significant margin, *and* 3rd overall, came off their bench. That's one mighty backup center to have. Most teams can't muster up a single decent one to even start.


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

Lets end this discussion, D-wade proved others wrong, he has a ring, and an NBA finals MVP, and only Tim Duncan in that top 6 by 'ralaw' can say that.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

It's funny that people keep bringing up Wade's one ring to bump him over Kobe. You can certainly argue for Wade over Kobe, but bringing championships into it doesn't really help your cause. Rings should never be brought up when comparing individual players, anyway. I'm not going to put Duncan and Kobe over LeBron for the sole reason that they have 3 rings to his none. I don't even take that into account.


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## jworth (Feb 17, 2006)

Spriggan said:


> It's funny that people keep bringing up Wade's one ring to bump him over Kobe. You can certainly argue for Wade over Kobe, but bringing championships into it doesn't really help your cause. Rings should never be brought up when comparing individual players, anyway. I'm not going to put Duncan and Kobe over LeBron for the sole reason that they have 3 rings to his none. I don't even take that into account.


The importance is on how the players won their championships. Championships do mean a lot especially since Kobe, Wade, and Duncan have been big reasons as to why their teams have won titles. But I know what you mean. Anybody with any type of basketball knowledge can watch a guy play over time and tell if he's better than another player.


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## jworth (Feb 17, 2006)

The MAMBA said:


> You can't count that against Kobe, at all. It's not his fault he was paired with a prime Shaq. But it is a testement to his greatness that he won 3 of them with Shaq, and I find it hard to believe that Wade will win 3 chips in a row. And after that 2001 championship against Philly, it was pretty much Kobe's team. They were equal in leading those Laker squads, no matter what anyone says. Shaq may have been that dude kicking people's asses early in games, but it was a young Kobe killing very good teams at the end of those games. Wade is a great ball player, absolutely fantastic. But you'd have to be smoking some serious dope, to not see all the areas in which Kobe (even at an early age) was better at than Wade. Shaq may not get the numbers he did w/ Kobe, but he still has the same amount of presence on the floor, and still demands attention. Which is what made Shaq so effective originally. It wasn't b/c he was super talented. In terms of talent, I'd take Hakeem, D. Rob, and even Ewing over Shaq. It was and still is, Shaq's size and presence which allows his teammates to excel.


It's nothing against Kobe. Just something to take into account.


> If you put Kobe on this year's Heat team, they very well could've won the chip. And that isn't a discredit to Wade. He is being compared with Kobe, the best basketball player in the world. Wade is right there, biting at his feet, as the best guard in the league.


Something tells me we would have seen another chapter of drama featuring Kobe, Shaq, Payton, Riley, and Walker. But that's another story.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

jworth said:


> Will say this: Wade is better than Kobe. He won a title as the only superstar on his team while Kobe won titles with a prime Shaq.


Not fair to Kobe, given the equal chance for Kobe to lead and for Shaq to defer just as he did to Wade, the result would be the same. There should be no question on who is a more superior scorer between Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade. With a declining Shaq on his side, a bunch of has been All Stars, Kobe Bryant can do as much if not more damage than Wade.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

jworth said:


> It's nothing against Kobe. Just something to take into account.
> 
> Something tells me we would have seen another chapter of drama featuring Kobe, Shaq, Payton, Riley, and Walker. But that's another story.


Only reason there was a drama to begin with is because Shaq has the bigger ego of the two, its all clear, he had his complete reign over the team when they won 3 straight championship, when Kobe knocked on the door of taking over, he shut his door and asked for a trade. His current success with the Heat would've had a mirror result if he stayed in Los Angeles, this time by playing Robin to Kobe's Batman.


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## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

Anakin Skywalker is still the best player in the world. Ask LeBron James. He'll tell you, Kobe's the best.


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## STUCKEY! (Aug 31, 2005)

magic_bryant said:


> Anakin Skywalker is still the best player in the world. Ask LeBron James. He'll tell you, Kobe's the best.


Yoda is still the best player in the league :biggrin:


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

SHEED! said:


> Yoda is still the best player in the league :biggrin:


Sam Cassell???


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

CubanLaker said:


> Sam Cassell???



no question, without a doubt.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

i can only seem to attatch, i can't insert the full size into my post, help anyone?


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Is Wade the best player in the League? No. there are still a few skills he needs to learn that quite a few players 'that i believe are better' have: three point shot, fadeaway jumper, some post moves, perimeter defense(which isn't realy fair because some players are just not defensive players)

Players that I still feel are better than Wade right now

Garnett: though his fourth quarter toughness is now in question
Duncan: nobody will be as fundementally sound as he is
Kobe: More offensive skill(3pt shot, post game ect.) and better defense
Iverson: better scorer and now a better passer

*Outstanding Strengths of Wade...*
Wade does have a smoother mid range game then any of the guys mentioned above and only Iverson can match his speed and penatration abilities.

*Outstanding Weakness of Wade*
Wade's own mental durablity during an injury may be Wade's undoing. Even though his injuries are not numberous, when his is injured or sick it's effects his game to a complete scale and even Wade has said that it takes a while for him to heal. Since injuries are a part of basketball, this is something that Wade needs to work.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

The One said:


> Is Wade the best player in the League? No. there are still a few skills he needs to learn that quite a few players 'that i believe are better' have: three point shot, fadeaway jumper, some post moves, perimeter defense(which isn't realy fair because some players are just not defensive players)
> 
> Players that I still feel are better than Wade right now
> 
> ...


You really think Iverson is better than Lebron and Wade?


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## kzero (Apr 30, 2006)

> Even though his injuries are not numberous


The man is such a drama queen he is listed as day-to-day every other game with either a sore back, sprained ankle, broken nose, jammed finger, lost tooth or whatever he can come up with.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

kzero said:


> The man is such a drama queen he is listed as day-to-day every other game with either a sore back, sprained ankle, broken nose, jammed finger, lost tooth or whatever he can come up with.


yeah, that is true :angel:


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Brandname said:


> You really think Iverson is better than Lebron and Wade?


Make a list of things that Lebron and Wade are better than Iverson at on the court that has nothing to do with size and see if you can come up with more than 3


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## jworth (Feb 17, 2006)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Not fair to Kobe, given the equal chance for Kobe to lead and for Shaq to defer just as he did to Wade, the result would be the same. There should be no question on who is a more superior scorer between Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade. With a declining Shaq on his side, a bunch of has been All Stars, Kobe Bryant can do as much if not more damage than Wade.


We've seen Kobe attempt to take the Finals over against the Pistons as the Lakers' lead man. It's not as if he was never given the opportunity, but I'm sure his fans would feel otherwise.


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## jworth (Feb 17, 2006)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Only reason there was a drama to begin with is because Shaq has the bigger ego of the two, its all clear, he had his complete reign over the team when they won 3 straight championship, when Kobe knocked on the door of taking over, he shut his door and asked for a trade. His current success with the Heat would've had a mirror result if he stayed in Los Angeles, this time by playing Robin to Kobe's Batman.


I'm sure this would have never been a problem had Shaq been playing with Wade during that time. It was just as much Shaq's fault as it was Kobe's, but Wade is mature enough to get along with anyone and I imagine it would work just as it is now. The maturity is the biggest difference.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

jworth said:


> We've seen Kobe attempt to take the Finals over against the Pistons as the Lakers' lead man. It's not as if he was never given the opportunity, but I'm sure his fans would feel otherwise.


Great of you to compare Dallas defense over the Pistons under Larry Brown where they were playing the best defense of their lives. You already know how Kobe destroyed the Mavs in three quarters, (sure regular season) dont tell me Kobe will have a hard time scoring against Devin Harris, Josh Howard and Jerry Stackhouse.

Nice touch!


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## jworth (Feb 17, 2006)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Great of you to compare Dallas defense over the Pistons under Larry Brown where they were playing the best defense of their lives. You already know how Kobe destroyed the Mavs in three quarters, (sure regular season) dont tell me Kobe will have a hard time scoring against Devin Harris, Josh Howard and Jerry Stackhouse.
> 
> Nice touch!


Nice excuse.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Great of you to compare Dallas defense over the Pistons under Larry Brown where they were playing the best defense of their lives. You already know how Kobe destroyed the Mavs in three quarters, (sure regular season) dont tell me Kobe will have a hard time scoring against Devin Harris, Josh Howard and Jerry Stackhouse.
> 
> Nice touch!


Wade lit up that same Piston defense many times. Be careful what you use to defend your favorite player.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

jworth said:


> I'm sure this would have never been a problem had Shaq been playing with Wade during that time. It was just as much Shaq's fault as it was Kobe's, but Wade is mature enough to get along with anyone and I imagine it would work just as it is now. The maturity is the biggest difference.


No one is bailing Kobe out of this equation, but what could be the difference is that...

Shaq have no chance but to co-exist with Wade, had he come to Miami and starts running the team in his terms (yes not fair to assume) but he'll more than likely be exposed as having yet another problem to co-exist with another young star player. Im not going to disregard the fact that Wade is a humble player and Kobe may not be as much, err not even close to Wade's, but these assumptions will always stand out. 

Bottom line is, Shaq was put into a position he clearly doesnt want, he was a few months being removed from his former team and yet here he is already deferring to a unproven guard (very UnShaqly). Do you think if Shaq is still in his prime, after signing a multi million dollar deal with Miami he'll give the mantle to a second year guard and take a backseat? Dont think so.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Wade lit up that same Piston defense many times. Be careful what you use to defend your favorite player.


Please, even the Piston players themselves admits their a different team under Flip Saunders. That Larry Brown Championship team was different, everyone knows it. Their hunger was unquestionable, their overall team defense was better.

Kobe may never admit it, but he obviously hit the wall in that series, people tend to forget that he went through a lot of off court issues thats was just mentally exhausting, Kobe also he came in the off season basically out of shape. People dont tend to put this issues when establishing his performance that season.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Please, even the Piston players themselves admits their a different team under Flip Saunders. That Larry Brown Championship team was different, everyone knows it. Their hunger was unquestionable, their overall team defense was better.
> 
> Kobe may never admit it, but he obviously hit the wall in that series, people tend to forget that he went through a lot of off court issues thats was just mentally exhausting, Kobe also he came in the off season basically out of shape. People dont tend to put this issues when establishing his performance that season.


Wade played against the Larry Brown Pistons as well, and lit them up.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Wade played against the Larry Brown Pistons as well, and lit them up.




remind me if they won the series?


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## jworth (Feb 17, 2006)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> No one is bailing Kobe out of this equation, but what could be the difference is that...
> 
> Shaq have no chance but to co-exist with Wade, had he come to Miami and starts running the team in his terms (yes not fair to assume) but he'll more than likely be exposed as having yet another problem to co-exist with another young star player. Im not going to disregard the fact that Wade is a humble player and Kobe may not be as much, err not even close to Wade's, but these assumptions will always stand out.
> 
> Bottom line is, Shaq was put into a position he clearly doesnt want, he was a few months being removed from his former team and yet here he is already deferring to a unproven guard (very UnShaqly). Do you think if Shaq is still in his prime, after signing a multi million dollar deal with Miami he'll give the mantle to a second year guard and take a backseat? Dont think so.


You definitely have a good point here.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> remind me if they won the series?


Exactly. I don't see what AJ23's point is anyway. Especially considering he used to stick up for Kobe. Kobe came into the 2003-2004 with a **** ton of stuff on his plate. He had a really bad shoulder, had surgery on that, had surgery on his knee... came in looking skinnier, less defined, and not really prepared for NBA basketball. Not to mention, alittle thing called a rape case that he had to deal with. It was amazing in itself that he didn't have a mental breakdown... let alone leading that team all the way to the Finals. And if you remember correctly, Kobe dominated in L.A. and hit a game winning 3 to tie the series up... but eventually, the physical and mental wear and tear caught up with him. Kobe loves basketball. He loves it so much, that he used it as a refuge, in the most tumultuous time in his LIFE. Dealing with so many on the court, and off the court issues. No one has had it like that ever. If Kobe was fully healthy, had no rape case, was in full basketball shape, no off-court family problems... The Lakers would've taken that chip. Kobe isn't someone like T-Mac who makes threats of retirement when stuff goes wrong. Kobe plays through it. In all sincereity... This Heat squad is better than the 04 Lakers squad. Let's break it down:

05/06 Jason Willaims > 03/04 Gary Payton
05/06 James Posey > 03/04 Devean George
05/06 Antonie Walker > 03/04 Karl Malone
05/06 Udonis Haslem > 03/04 Luke Walton
05/06 Gary Payton > 03/04 Derek Fisher
05/06 Alonzo Mourning > 03/04 Mark Madsen

There is no comparison... The Heat squad was way better than the 03/04 Laker squad.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> That's because the league has 5-6 guys who have damn good arguments for being the best player in the league. I try to give all of them their due when they come up big.


I agree..... However, it is kind of amusing that you posed the question "is Wade *officially* the best player" and then go on to say there are 5-6 players who are arguably the best players in the league. Contradiction.

It also gets kind of tiresome to have you make a new thread every month saying player X is the best player in the game. What's the point in making a thread like that if you admit to thinking there is more than 4 players who are arguably the greatest. Kind of counter-productive.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

What is the rationale for putting Wade over Kobe?
Kobe has more championships. Has had better perfomances, consistently. Kobe's better defensively. What does Wade do better than Kobe? Get along with Shaq?


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

My New Top 5

1. Tim Duncan(when healthy)
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. KG
5. Kobe


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> What is the rationale for putting Wade over Kobe?
> Kobe has more championships. Has had better perfomances, consistently. Kobe's better defensively. What does Wade do better than Kobe? Get along with Shaq?


Seriously. Tell em, man... tell them!!!


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

The 04-05 Pistons team was not as good as the 03-04 Piston's team. They were a cocky, coasting, team with overbloated egos (though not as overbloated as this season), the team that the Lakers played against was a hungry, determined underdog team bent on proving themselves.

And futuristxen is right, when someone can bring up a rational reason for why Wade is better than Kobe, then maybe then they can make that claim. Just ranking 5 players in personal preference says nothing. Wade is quicker, but that is about it. Have people already forgotten just HOW dominant Kobe Bryant was this past season?

To put it in perspective, Dwyane Wade averaged 35 ppg at a 47% clip over the Mavs in the finals, Kobe averaged 35 ppg over the span of the entire regular season scoring at a similar efficiency at 45%. Games like these were just another day's work for him. He dominated the game this season where every single game counted.

The only other swingman on Kobe's level is Lebron. Wade had huge 4th quarter games, Kobe averaged double digits in 4th quarters. Lebron has carried his team in big pressure situations. And coming up huge for his team on the biggest stage in basketball, the NBA finals, it's all been done before by Bryant, or have the past 6 years simply become ancient history now? No one would've said Wade was the best player in the game during hte regular season and as far as I can see, Wade has not improved since the regular season and Kobe and Lebron have not gotten worse, so why would he suddenly be the best? And until Duncan puts together a season of the great play that he showed against the Mav's this season, he is still 2nd tier behind Kobe and Lebron.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

KidCanada said:


> I agree..... However, it is kind of amusing that you posed the question "is Wade *officially* the best player" and then go on to say there are 5-6 players who are arguably the best players in the league. Contradiction.


That's not a contradiction. Look up "contradiction" before using the word. 



> It also gets kind of tiresome to have you make a new thread every month saying player X is the best player in the game. What's the point in making a thread like that if you admit to thinking there is more than 4 players who are arguably the greatest. Kind of counter-productive.


The thread title is "So is Wade officially the best player in the league?", which is a question not a statement of belief or fact. It's meant to start debate. Think about it, carefully.


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## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

bron bron is #1


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## sic_D (May 5, 2005)

Lebron, Wade and others will follow.


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## sic_D (May 5, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> 05/06 Jason Willaims > 03/04 Gary Payton
> 05/06 James Posey > 03/04 Devean George
> 05/06 Antonie Walker > 03/04 Karl Malone
> 05/06 Udonis Haslem > 03/04 Luke Walton
> ...


Something you seem to forget
05/06 Wade >>> 03/04 Kobe


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

The One said:


> Make a list of things that Lebron and Wade are better than Iverson at on the court that has nothing to do with size and see if you can come up with more than 3


I'm not sure I could name 3 things Iverson is better at than Lebron or Wade. And nothing to do with size? Name 3 things Shaq can do better than Iverson that aren't related to size. It's a stupid premise because size is part of the equation. Having advantages related to size are still advantages.

Because then we'd have to take Iverson's quickness out of the equation (related to size). He wouldn't be able to perform the same crossover at 6' 8", so that's related to size to. 

I don't get it. Why take size out of the equation?


----------



## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Kobe has more championships.


No he doesn't. But the Lakers do. Anyway, this thread isn't about career accomplishments. If it was, then Gary Payton would belong in the top 10.



> Has had better perfomances, consistently.


You mean his 81 point outbursts have been consistently repeated?



> Kobe's better defensively.


Kobe is slightly better defensively, but he is not as good as his 1st Team All-Defense award would suggest.



> What does Wade do better than Kobe? Get along with Shaq?


Wade is a better passer than Kobe. And yes, that Wade is great for team chemistry is absolutely a factor.

I don't think Wade is clearly better than Kobe; I think they are on the same level. But this is nothing new, except to those who were carried away by Kobe's scoring outbursts during the regular season. Wade had a historically great regular season, just like Kobe and LeBron. And now he's also had back to back tremendous playoff performances.



The MAMBA said:


> *05/06 Jason Willaims > 03/04 Gary Payton*
> 05/06 James Posey > 03/04 Devean George
> *05/06 Antonie Walker > 03/04 Karl Malone*
> 05/06 Udonis Haslem > 03/04 Luke Walton
> ...


How much more biased can this be? Williams is not better than the 2004 Payton. Heck, he was barely better than a much more deteriorated Payton this year. Walker is not better than that Malone was, although Malone cost his team games with his injury. Fisher and Payton were equally bad.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Hoopla said:


> No he doesn't. But the Lakers do. Anyway, this thread isn't about career accomplishments. If it was, then Gary Payton would belong in the top 10.


I think that's fair. But if you throw out the rings, then that pulls Lebron back into the conversation.




> You mean his 81 point outbursts have been consistently repeated?


See also the Dallas 3 quarters game, and a game against the Grizzlies a few years back. And many many many other performances. Wade's careeer high in points is 48. He hasn't even cracked the 50 point barrier in a game yet. He hasn't averaged 30 points per game. He's just flat out not as explosive a scorer as Kobe and that is demonstarably a fact.



> Kobe is slightly better defensively, but he is not as good as his 1st Team All-Defense award would suggest.


Wade's not as good as his second team defense award. He just plays in front of good defensive centers...just like...shock! Kobe did when he won it!



> Wade is a better passer than Kobe. And yes, that Wade is great for team chemistry is absolutely a factor.


Wade passes more than Kobe, but he's not a better passer. Kobe has better vision and more creativity with his passes. Neither are on Lebron's level here though.



> I don't think Wade is clearly better than Kobe; I think they are on the same level. But this is nothing new, except to those who were carried away by Kobe's scoring outbursts during the regular season. Wade had a historically great regular season, just like Kobe and LeBron. And now he's also had back to back tremendous playoff performances.


Wade is on neither Kobe nor Lebron's level. He's close. But the diffrence is worth noting.


----------



## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

BTW it seems T-mac is fine.

And apparently he will be fine next season.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=114140


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## dwade3 (Sep 12, 2005)

wade is da man he is the MVP of the Finals, he is the King of the NBA hill, simple as that....


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

sic_D said:


> Something you seem to forget
> 05/06 Wade >>> 03/04 Kobe


That's the point. 03/04 Kobe wasn't even the normal Kobe, and he was still the best 2 guard in the league at that time. If he was at full mental/physical/emotional stress... **** would have been over. What you don't seem to grasp is : Kobe > Wade in virtually every aspect of the game, except for being Shaq's butt buddy.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

05-06 Wade>Kobe from 96-05

The Kobe we saw this season is a better player than 05-06 Wade, barely.


----------



## g-dog-rice#2 (Jan 29, 2006)

Drewbs said:


> Have people already forgotten just HOW nt Kobe Bryant was this past season?
> 
> To put it in perspective, Dwyane Wade averaged 35 ppg at a 47% clip over the Mavs in the finals, Kobe averaged 35 ppg over the span of the entire regular season scoring at a similar efficiency at 45%. Games like these were just another day's work for him. He ted the game this season where every single game counted.
> [\QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Are people so dumb that they can't understand the difference between the regular season and the NBA Finals?


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> If he was at full mental/physical/emotional stress...


You mean, like he was in 04-05? The season where he put up inferior numbers to 05-06 Wade? The season where his team won 34 games? 

Or are you talking about this season, where he has an inferior PER to Wade's?


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> You mean, like he was in 04-05? The season where he put up inferior numbers to 05-06 Wade? The season where his team won 34 games?
> 
> Or are you talking about this season, where he has an inferior PER to Wade's?


So does all that in your opinion clearly make Wade the better overall player?


----------



## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

What about AI? Why is his name never discussed anymore as the best player in the league? Last season was his best individual season. 33 ppg and over 7 apg. Shot around 45%


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

ralaw said:


> So does all that in your opinion clearly make Wade the better overall player?


No, I think 05-06 Kobe's got a slight edge over him due to his offensive dominance. What amuses me is how certain groupies are trying make the gap look bigger than it is by ridiculously comparing Wade's performance in the NBA Finals to Kobe's regular season. When has Kobe ever _carried_ his team to an NBA championship by posting 35/7/5 in a _PLAYOFF_ series? Or how about comparing Wade's Finals to Kobe's 4 Finals? No, they wouldn't wanna do that :laugh:. And if you wanna compare Kobe's regular season to something, might as well do it with Wade's regular season. Or are they aware of Wade's superior overall stats and how he ended up with a better PER?

Bottomline: Wade along with LeBron and Kobe is a top 3 player in the league and he's done something neither of those 2 have - Lead his team to an NBA Championship as its undisputed best player.


----------



## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> What about AI? Why is his name never discussed anymore as the best player in the league? Last season was his best individual season. 33 ppg and over 7 apg. Shot around 45%


Because he's not the best player in the league. Pretty simple, really.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> No, I think 05-06 Kobe's got a slight edge over him due to his offensive dominance. What amuses me is how certain groupies are trying make the small gap look bigger than it is by ridiculously comparing Wade's performance in the NBA Finals to Kobe's regular season. When has Kobe ever _carried_ his team to an NBA championship by posting 35/7/5 in a _PLAYOFF_ series? And if you wanna compare Kobe's regular season to something, might as well do it with Wade's regular season. Or are they aware of Wade's superior overall stats and how he ended up with a better PER?


That's fair. I guess I am in the minority, because Kobe is my favorite player in the league, but I fully understand Wade is right there with him. So me arguing over who is better is rather pointless. Yes, Kobe is better than Wade at certian skills, but it works both ways. In my opinion right now neither player is clearly better than the other, but both players are better than the other at certain skills. It's hard to compare stats, because both players are from entirely different situations. 

I will say your argument of "When has Kobe ever carried his team to an NBA championship by posting 35/7/5 in a PLAYOFF series?" is a rather useless fact because in the grand scheme of things it really has no value. I could just as easily ask when has Wade contained his skills for the betterment of the team to win 3 straight championships? In my attempts to uplift Kobe I am tearing Wade down when in all actuality both players on the same plain.In both situations both players did what was best for their teams given the circumstances and that is it.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

SPMJ said:


> Or are they aware of Wade's superior overall stats and how he ended up with a better PER?


kobe had the higher PER.



SPMJ said:


> Bottomline: Wade along with LeBron and Kobe is a top 3 player in the league and he's done something neither of those 2 have - Lead his team to an NBA Championship as its undisputed best player.


true dat. kobe does still have 3 championships to wade's 1. does wade get the advantage for his accomplishment over kobe's?


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

sMaK said:


> Because he's not the best player in the league. Pretty simple, really.


IMO, there is no "Best" player in the league, the top 5 or so are interchangeable, when healthy:

AI, Kobe, Duncan, LeBron, KG, and Wade


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

kflo said:


> kobe had the higher PER.


Damn, you're right. 29.8 to Kobe's 30. I forgot abt Wade's slow end to the season w/ Riley playing his stars limited minutes. Kobe had a great finish to the season on the other hand. There was a point with abt 10 games left in the season Wade was comfortably #1 in the league in PER. LeBron was #2 and Kobe #3.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

SPMJ said:


> Damn, you're right. 29.8 to Kobe's 30. I forgot abt Wade's slow end to the season w/ Riley playing his stars limited minutes. Kobe had a great finish to the season on the other hand. There was a point with abt 10 games left in the season Wade was comfortably #1 in the league in PER. LeBron was #2 and Kobe #3.


right. kobe had the higher per.

limited minutes doesn't impact per.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

kflo said:


> right. kobe had the higher per.
> 
> limited minutes doesn't impact per.


It seems that was just SPMJ's attempt to say "My fault Kobe's is higher, but (put excuse here) is the reason why"


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

kflo said:


> limited minutes doesn't impact per.


I know that. But near the end of the season Miami was into trying different things and in the limited mins. Wade played, he wasn't really asked to do much. That does impact PER.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> I know that. But near the end of the season Miami was into trying different things and in the limited mins. Wade played, he wasn't really asked to do much. That does impact PER.


how do you know what wade was asked to do? even if what you say is true, if wade was such an efficient player, he would have found ways to contribute, even if he was not asked to do so.

give it up, regardless of your attempts to justify why wade was more efficient, kobe had the higher PER.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> 05-06 Wade>Kobe from 96-05
> 
> The Kobe we saw this season is a better player than 05-06 Wade, barely.


You wouldn't admit Kobe is better than Will Purdue. Your opinion means nothing. Kobe is better in every single facet of the game, than Dwyane Wade... from 1999-present.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

bootstrenf said:


> how do you know what wade was asked to do? even if what you say is true, if wade was such an efficient player, he would have found ways to contribute, even if he was not asked to do so.
> 
> give it up, regardless of your attempts to justify why wade was more efficient, kobe had the higher PER.


The difference between their PERs is of 0.2. If you don't think Wade's lack of role played a part in his PER dipping w/ the season drawing to a close, then good for you. Even though he had a healthy lead over his competitors through a large part of the season.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

ralaw said:


> It seems that was just SPMJ's attempt to say "My fault Kobe's is higher, but (put excuse here) is the reason why"


Exactly, he gets a hard on off of hating on Kobe.


----------



## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

bootstrenf said:


> how do you know what wade was asked to do? even if what you say is true, if wade was such an efficient player, he would have found ways to contribute, even if he was not asked to do so.
> 
> give it up, regardless of your attempts to justify why wade was more efficient, kobe had the higher PER.


Kobe is a better ball player, SPJM would love for anything to discredit one, Kobe Bryant.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

SPMJ said:


> I know that. But near the end of the season Miami was into trying different things and in the limited mins. Wade played, he wasn't really asked to do much. That does impact PER.


wade's last 10 he averaged 37mpg, 25 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, 54% ts%.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> You wouldn't admit Kobe is better than Will Purdue.


Yet I just mentioned Kobe's better than Wade. Hmmm...reading problem? 



> Your opinion means nothing.


Yours never did.



> Kobe is better in every single facet of the game, than Dwyane Wade... from 1999-present


He's got more range and was a better defender 4 years ago. Today? More range and that's all. Wade's his equal or better at everything else.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> You mean, like he was in 04-05? The season where he put up inferior numbers to 05-06 Wade? The season where his team won 34 games?
> 
> Or are you talking about this season, where he has an inferior PER to Wade's?


The season where he re-injured his shoulder that he had surgery on the year prior? The shoulder is key in anything you do in basketball. That played a major role in why he wasn't as effective. Kobe is just a flat out better ball player than Wade.


----------



## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> Yet I just mentioned Kobe's better than Wade. Hmmm...reading problem?


No, because you discredited it by saying "barely"... which isn't true at all. 


> Yours never did.


Of course it does. I understand the game of basketball better than you. You try to mold certain statistics into backing up your argument. If you remove the "hate Kobe" goggles that you have stuck on your head, stopped just looking at the stats, and/or just watched them play... it is glaringly obvious who the better player is. Kobe dominated in an era where people could actually play defense. Most of Dwyane Wade's statistics are where they are because of the hand check rule. 


> He's got more range and was a better defender 4 years ago. Today? More range and that's all. Wade's his equal or better at everything else.


Kobe is a better defender than Dwyane Wade. Dwyane Wade was getting straight abused on defense in the Finals. J. Terry, Josh Howard, all were giving him the business. Kobe, even though it isn't his m.o., is still a better and more creative passer and creator. Let's not even go into the details of their offensive game. Cause Kobe can drive just like Wade, but can also hit easy jumpers, and has a long ball that Wade will probably never have.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> The season where he re-injured his shoulder that he had surgery on the year prior? The shoulder is key in anything you do in basketball.


Every player plays with some kind of nagging injury throughout the season(when did Kobe injure his shoulder, exactly?). And for someone w/ an "injured" shoulder he sure jacked up a lot of 3s. More 3s than he had ever taken b4 in his career in fact.


----------



## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

kflo said:


> wade's last 10 he averaged 37mpg, 25 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, 54% ts%.



bam!!!!!!!!!!!!!! repped


----------



## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> The difference between their PERs is of 0.2. If you don't think Wade's lack of role played a part in his PER dipping w/ the season drawing to a close, then good for you. Even though he had a healthy lead over his competitors through a large part of the season.


yeah, and kobe played on a team full of scrubs, and he still maintained his efficiency. opposing defenses would literally quadruple-team him, and he still did better than wade.


----------



## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> Every player plays with some kind of nagging injury throughout the season(when did Kobe injure his shoulder, exactly?). And for someone w/ an "injured" shoulder he sure jacked up a lot of 3s. More 3s than he had ever taken b4 in his career in fact.


And? It actually was re-injured against LeBron's Cavs. And don't get it twisted...this isn't a minor nagging injury. A shoulder injury is pretty major. Once again, go searching for something to discredit Kobe.


----------



## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

bootstrenf said:


> yeah, and kobe played on a team full of scrubs, and he still maintained his efficiency. opposing defenses would literally quadruple-team him, and he still did better than wade.


True.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> The difference between their PERs is of 0.2. If you don't think Wade's lack of role played a part in his PER dipping w/ the season drawing to a close, then good for you. Even though he had a healthy lead over his competitors through a large part of the season.



kflo: "wade's last 10 he averaged 37mpg, 25 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, 54% ts%."


SPMJ, how you gonna argue against the stats?


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> Damn, you're right I forgot abt Wade's slow end to the season w/ Riley playing his stars *limited minutes*.





kflo said:


> wade's last 10 he averaged *37mpg*, 25 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, 54% ts%.


 :laugh:


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

freakin avatar still cracks me up. :laugh:


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> The difference between their PERs is of 0.2. If you don't think Wade's lack of role played a part in his PER dipping w/ the season drawing to a close, then good for you. Even though he had a healthy lead over his competitors through a large part of the season.


Wade did hold the lead for a small period. Those of you who read ESPN.com might remember that John Hollinger changed his tune to a different MVP as soon as Wade took over the top spot. And then when Wade lost the top spot, he changed back to his previous choice. The leader for most of the season, however, was Lebron. Wade took over for a little bit about 2/3 of the way through. Then Lebron went back on top. Then Dirk actually came in and ended on top. But if you look at the stats, Dirk, Lebron, and Kobe all ended within .09 of each other in PER. All very efficient. Wade was a little bit below them, but he was quite efficient himself. The PER race was really really close all year.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

bootstrenf said:


> freakin avatar still cracks me up. :laugh:


haha i know, especially when you're listening to that music. MAMBA said he had the same avy at one point.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

I can't believe people are saying Arenas is better then Wade 

Wade shot 49.5% percent last year. For him to score the amount of points he did and be that efficient is amazing. Nobody can touch him in efficiency.


During the season...

Arenas shot 44.7%
Kobe shot 45.0%
Wade shot 49.5

That is almost 5% difference! That is a huge amount, especially as you get higher up in FG%. Wade is by far the most efficient guard in the game. 

Wade basically shot 50% and scored 27 points a game. Nobody in the league comes close except Elton Brand who is a PF. Do any guards come close to that? Only SF's and PF's. 

Dwayne Wade is in a class of his own when it comes to efficient basketball for a guard.


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## jdiggidy (Jun 21, 2003)

The NBA has hitched its marketing star to Lebron however the face of the NBA maybe moving more toward Wade. It was Lebron vs. Carmelo but it may turn into Lebron vs. Wade if David Stern has his way with things.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

compsciguy78 said:


> I can't believe people are saying Arenas is better then Wade
> 
> Wade shot 49.5% percent last year. For him to score the amount of points he did and be that efficient is amazing. Nobody can touch him in efficiency.
> 
> ...


arenas had a ts% of 58.1, wade 57.7 (kobe 55.9, lebron 56.8, pierce 58.2).

wade's not in a class of his own.

please people, drop fg%, or at least use eFG%.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

jdiggidy said:


> The NBA has hitched its marketing star to Lebron however the face of the NBA maybe moving more toward Wade. It was Lebron vs. Carmelo but it may turn into Lebron vs. Wade if David Stern has his way with things.


Wade is better then Carmelo, it should be that way.


Go back to summer league of the Lebron and Wade's first year and see how Wade matched up with Lebron.

Go back to Wade's first year in the playoffs and his clutch abilities.

Wade is a superstar! He is arguably the best guard in the game!


----------



## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> I can't believe people are saying Arenas is better then Wade
> 
> Wade shot 49.5% percent last year. For him to score the amount of points he did and be that efficient is amazing. Nobody can touch him in efficiency.
> 
> ...



3ptrs made: 
kobe:180
gilbert:199
dwyane:13

spreading the floor with a 3pt threat is overrated, right?


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

kflo said:


> arenas had a ts% of 58.1, wade 57.7 (kobe 55.9, lebron 56.8, pierce 58.2).
> 
> wade's not in a class of his own.
> 
> please people, drop fg%, or at least use eFG%.


what is eFG% and what is ts%??? Let me know so I can see where those stats come from.


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> No, because you discredited it by saying "barely"... which isn't true at all.


That's because you're a Kobe groupie. Everybody else either considers Wade better(check out the latest polls), an equal, or think he falls _slightly_ short.



> I understand the game of basketball better than you.


Uhh, OK.



> it is glaringly obvious who the better player is.


Only to a certain sort of people(that includes you), and we know how much credibility they have.



> Kobe dominated in an era where people could actually play defense.


Yeah, and the current Wade would've been a 20/5/5 player 2 years ago 



> Most of Dwyane Wade's statistics are where they are because of the hand check rule.


Ahh, I see. So you agree that the new _soft_ rules play a large part in Kobe averaging 35 ppg? Glad to hear that from you.



> Kobe is a better defender than Dwyane Wade.


This ain't 2000. I saw Kobe playing worse defense in the 1st round than Wade ever did in the playoffs, and Wade's NOT a very good defender. That says a lot about Kobe's overrated D.



> Dwyane Wade was getting straight abused on defense in the Finals. J. Terry, Josh Howard, all were giving him the business.


Which would explain why Josh Howard shot 38% in the Finals. Terry? . J-Will and Payton took turns guarding him. Wade did spend a lot of time guarding Devin Harris, who shot 36% in the Finals. Man, Wade got raped! :laugh:



> Kobe, even though it isn't his m.o., is still a better and more creative passer and creator.


I can't think of a better drive and dish player in this league than Wade. Kobe might've made more fancy passes, but he's never averaged as many assists as Wade(despite playing alongside prime Shaq and a load of spot-up shooters) the last couple of seasons. Not even close, in fact. 



> Let's not even go into the details of their offensive game.


What's there to go? Kobe's got more range and a better up post-up game, although he rarely ever plays w/ his back to the basket. Wade's a better slasher, his mid-range game is money and has been a more efficient scorer his entire career so far. 

All Kobe's got over Wade is scoring, and I do think that's enough to give him a slight edge over Wade.


----------



## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

*So is Wade officially the best player in the league?*

Well duh.. he just won a championship with Finals MVP to along with.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> what is eFG% and what is ts%??? Let me know so I can see where those stats come from.


eFG% is effective field goal percentage. It takes into account the fact that 3 pointers are worth more than 2 pointers, so it doesn't make it seem like a great 3 point shooter is only mediocre. 

TS% is similar, except it also takes into account free throw shooting to give a better idea of offensive efficiency.

Both of these stats (with their respective formulas) can be found at sites like www.basketball-reference.com.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

bootstrenf said:


> 3ptrs made:
> kobe:180
> gilbert:199
> dwyane:13
> ...


3 pointers are fine and dandy, but when it negates efficiency then you have to weigh the effectiveness. 

I don't think Dwayne Wade has a problem spreading the floor as we have seen. He creates constant double teams and traps just to stop him. This spreads the floor for his teammates. Next point.

So Gilbert is better because he shoots more 3 pointers and scores more? If you want to follow that logic then go for it. I consider a player better if he does more with what he has. Wade is more efficient and puts up the relatively the same scoring numbers and leads his team to a championship. 

I will take Wade everyday of the week over Arenas and every GM in the league would.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

compsciguy78 said:


> what is eFG% and what is ts%??? Let me know so I can see where those stats come from.


eFG% = (FG + 0.5*3P) / FGA
ts% = PTS / (2*(FGA + (0.44*FTA))

basketball-reference.com has everything you need.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> 3 pointers are fine and dandy, but when it negates efficiency then you have to weigh the effectiveness.
> 
> I don't think Dwayne Wade has a problem spreading the floor as we have seen. He creates constant double teams and traps just to stop him. This spreads the floor for his teammates. Next point.*
> 
> ...


Man, you really have to think of efficiency differently. From most measures of shooting efficiency (not overall efficiency that includes assists, etc), Arenas actually _was_ slightly more efficient that Wade this year. Even though Wade had a higher straight FG%.

It's the other aspects of his game that make Wade better than Arenas.


----------



## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> 3 pointers are fine and dandy, but when it negates efficiency then you have to weigh the effectiveness.
> 
> I don't think Dwayne Wade has a problem spreading the floor as we have seen. He creates constant double teams and traps just to stop him. This spreads the floor for his teammates. Next point.
> 
> ...



that's the reason people are telling you to use eFG% and TS%...


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> And? It actually was re-injured against LeBron's Cavs.


I thought he rolled his ankle(which was pretty serious) against the Cavs on TNT that caused him to miss 14 games? Or did he magically injure both in the same game?

And again, how do you explain him shattering his previous 3pters attempted per game despite that brutal shoulder injury?


----------



## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> That's because you're a Kobe groupie. Everybody else either considers Wade better(check out the latest polls), an equal, or think he falls _slightly_ short.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that's all fine and dandy, but what about this:

Originally Posted by SPMJ 
The difference between their PERs is of 0.2. If you don't think Wade's lack of role played a part in his PER dipping w/ the season drawing to a close, then good for you. Even though he had a healthy lead over his competitors through a large part of the season. 




Originally Posted by kflo
wade's last 10 he averaged 37mpg, 25 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, 54% ts%



where is your reply to this SPMJ??????????????????????????????????


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

compsciguy78 said:


> Wade is more efficient and puts up the relatively the same scoring numbers


that's the point - he's not more efficient.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> I thought he rolled his ankle(which was pretty serious) against the Cavs on TNT that caused him to miss 14 games? Or did he magically injure both in the same game?
> 
> And again, how do you explain him shattering his previous 3pters attempted per game despite that brutal shoulder injury?


Heh, he actually got a couple of pretty bad injuries against the Cavs. You're right, he did roll his ankle against the Cavs once.

But he also got a pretty bad shoulder injury when Kedrick Brown landed on him biting on a shot fake. It was a pretty bad injury; his arm was just kind of dangling afterwards. I don't remember whether he dislocated it or what.

(I think it was Kedrick Brown, anyway, if I remember correctly)


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

TS% and eFG% are great but Wade is still more efficient. 

When you take percentages like this you are helping the less efficient player.

If a player takes 3 pointers and misses them he should be penalized!!! Why help someone who takes three pointers? 

Arenas shoots 36.9% from 3 point line. This is respectable, but by no means would I want someone shooting that percentage taking 540 3 pointers!!! That is way too many! 

Those stats also don't take into account assists as part of efficiency. They also don't take into account passing up 3 pointers!!! Those stats help the 3 point shooter.

Dwayne Wade is not a 3 point shooter and doesn't need to be at this point. That's what makes him so special and the most efficient guard in the league. 

If you wanna argue Arenas is more efficient you need more percentages.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

bootstrenf said:


> that's all fine and dandy, but what about this:
> 
> Originally Posted by SPMJ
> The difference between their PERs is of 0.2. If you don't think Wade's lack of role played a part in his PER dipping w/ the season drawing to a close, then good for you. Even though he had a healthy lead over his competitors through a large part of the season.
> ...


Whoa man, settle down a bit. SPMJ is a good poster. He's just trying to respond to several posters at once.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

i guess it all depends on how people define efficiency. and it seems that everyones' definition of efficiency is different.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

bootstrenf said:


> that's the reason people are telling you to use eFG% and TS%...



From what I've seen those stats are good but still don't show that Arenas is more efficient. It would be hard to argue any guard is more efficient then Dwade, except maybe Steve Nash.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

Brandname said:


> Whoa man, settle down a bit. SPMJ is a good poster. He's just trying to respond to several posters at once.



it just seems that he won't admit when he's wrong about something, and picks and chooses his arguements. if he states something that is later proven wrong, at least he should acknowledge it. that's all. no hard feelings here.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> TS% and eFG% are great but Wade is still more efficient.
> 
> When you take percentages like this you are helping the less efficient player.
> 
> ...


Come on. Effeciency is necessarily a percentage stat. I mean, you can't just say, "This person is more efficient because I think he is." I mean, really, what does that accomplish. You're just saying that you have a bias for a certain player. Yes, players are hurt when they miss 3 pointers by virtue of the fact that *they miss 3 pointers more often than 2 pointers*. But they should also be rewarded for hitting 3 pointers because they're worth more than 2 pointers. You sound like you're saying you'd take someone who shoots nothing but 2 pointers at 50% over someone who shoots nothing but 3 pointers at 48%. But of course that's crazy. You have to account for the fact that 3 pointers are worth more; otherwise nobody would take them.

And you're right, those stats are only shooting stats. Which is why I was saying earlier than you have to look at other parts of Wade's game to explain why he's better. Which is also why Wade has a much higher PER while being a slightly less efficient scorer.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

> It is glaringly obvious who the better player is.





SPMJ said:



> Only to a certain sort of people, and we know how much credibility they have.





SPMJ said:


> Yet I just mentioned Kobe's better than Wade.


 :nonono: make up your mind.

:laugh:


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

compsciguy78 said:


> When you take percentages like this you are helping the less efficient player.
> 
> If a player takes 3 pointers and misses them he should be penalized!!! Why help someone who takes three pointers.


They are penalized. A three point miss counts as a normal miss, and since the degree of difficulty is higher, you're more likely to miss. The risk is there. However, it cannot be treated as just another field goal, because you get *one more point*. 

Why should a player who makes 4 out of 10 three pointers in a game and finishes with 12 points, be considered less efficient than a player who shoots 5 out of 10 midrange shots and layups and finishes with 10 points? 

You have to adjust for the fact that a three pointer is worth more than a two pointer. TS% and eFG% adjust for that. FG% does not.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Brandname said:


> Heh, he actually got a couple of pretty bad injuries against the Cavs. You're right, he did roll his ankle against the Cavs once.
> 
> But he also got a pretty bad shoulder injury when Kedrick Brown landed on him biting on a shot fake. It was a pretty bad injury; his arm was just kind of dangling afterwards. I don't remember whether he dislocated it or what.
> 
> (I think it was Kedrick Brown, anyway, if I remember correctly)


Kobe made his return on February 13 against the Cavs and LA got blown out that afternoon. So Kobe injured his shoulder in that game? I remember seeing the game on ABC and I don't recall Kobe getting injured.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

kflo said:


> that's the point - he's not more efficient.



WAde is more efficient. Do you have proof that Arenas is? 

I gave you FG%. Almost a 5% difference.

TS% is too close.

Where is eFG%?


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> :nonono: make up your mind.
> 
> :laugh:


"_Glaringly obvious_" implies Kobe's WAYYY better than Wade(or is that too hard for you to understand?) and we know what sort of people think along those lines.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> Kobe made his return on February 13th against the Cavs and LA gotten blownout that night. So Kobe injured his shoulder in that game?


Umm... well going strictly off of memory, I think so. I'm a Cavs fan, not a Lakers fan, so it's not like it was the end of the world to me when it happened. I'm not a huge Kobe fan, so it didn't concern me too much either way, but I do seem to remember him hurting himself again against us like right after he came back from another injury. You might be right, it might have been the very same night. 

But like I said, I'm trying to pull this from the very back of my mind, and my memory is that of an 87 year old man.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

Brandname said:


> Come on. Effeciency is necessarily a percentage stat. I mean, you can't just say, "This person is more efficient because I think he is." I mean, really, what does that accomplish. You're just saying that you have a bias for a certain player. Yes, players are hurt when they miss 3 pointers by virtue of the fact that *they miss 3 pointers more often than 2 pointers*. But they should also be rewarded for hitting 3 pointers because they're worth more than 2 pointers. You sound like you're saying you'd take someone who shoots nothing but 2 pointers at 50% over someone who shoots nothing but 3 pointers at 48%. But of course that's crazy. You have to account for the fact that 3 pointers are worth more; otherwise nobody would take them.
> 
> And you're right, those stats are only shooting stats. Which is why I was saying earlier than you have to look at other parts of Wade's game to explain why he's better. Which is also why Wade has a much higher PER while being a slightly less efficient scorer.


I'm talking about efficiency as a basketball player? Is that what PER deals with? 

I said Arenas could be a better scorer, but Wade is still a more efficient scorer. 

I'm not comparing a 48% 3 point shooter. Where is this guy? I'm comparing a 37% 3 point shooter. I found this guy and his name is Gilbert Arenas. I also found a guy named Dwayne Wade who shoots almost 5% FG better.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> I'm talking about efficiency as a basketball player? Is that what PER deals with?
> 
> I said Arenas could be a better scorer, but Wade is still a more efficient scorer.
> 
> I'm not comparing a 48% 3 point shooter. Where is this guy? I'm comparing a 37% 3 point shooter. I found this guy and his name is Gilbert Arenas. I also found a guy named Dwayne Wade who shoots almost 5% FG better.


Yes, that would be PER that you're looking for. It takes into account other stats than shooting.

I agree with you. I think Wade is a more efficient basketball player in general. He's just not a more efficient scorer. 

Obviously my example was a hypothetical that was supposed to expound on the virtues of using TS% and eFG% as opposed to FG% straight up.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

SPMJ said:


> I thought he rolled his ankle(which was pretty serious) against the Cavs on TNT that caused him to miss 14 games? Or did he magically injure both in the same game?
> 
> And again, how do you explain him shattering his previous 3pters attempted per game despite that brutal shoulder injury?


i'll attempt this one - kobe had no confidence in his midrange game last year. the difference between his midrange game, his ability to hit the midrange jumper, between this year and last year was dramatic. so he attacked the rim alot (high ft's), and settled for the 3 alot. this offseason, which he didn't have the prior year, he worked on that part of his game (and it was his greatest strength this year).


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Brandname said:


> Umm... well going strictly off of memory, I think so. I'm a Cavs fan, not a Lakers fan, so it's not like it was the end of the world to me when it happened. I'm not a huge Kobe fan, so it didn't concern me too much either way, but I do seem to remember him hurting himself again against us like right after he came back from another injury. You might be right, it might have been the very same night.


We'll have to check that out. Either way, MAMBA boy thinks Kobe's not-so-great-season in 04-05 was due to him re-injuring his shoulder(which you say took place on Feb. 13), so what would explain Kobe's rather mediocre season(by his standards) upto that point?


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

kflo said:


> i'll attempt this one - kobe had no confidence in his midrange game last year. the difference between his midrange game, his ability to hit the midrange jumper, between this year and last year was dramatic. so he attacked the rim alot (high ft's), and settled for the 3 alot. this offseason, which he didn't have the prior year, he worked on that part of his game (and it was his greatest strength this year).


True, but I think PJ's triangle offense played an even bigger role in Kobe's much improved shot selection. He seemed kinda lost under Rudy/Hamblem.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

That's all I'm arguing is that Wade is more efficient basketball player. That's all I care about, especially when you are talking about 2 points a game difference. I will take the more efficient basketball player overall. 2 points a game doesn't make that much difference to me. If someone else is getting the points on the team that is great. The more efficient basketball player overall is better. 


Efficiency as a basketball player cannot be overrated.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> We'll have to check that out. Either way, MAMBA boy thinks Kobe's not-so-great-season in 04-05 was due to him re-injuring his shoulder(which you say took place on Feb. 13), so what would explain Kobe's rather mediocre season(by his standards) upto that point?


Me? I don't know really. I didn't pay attention to his season that closely. I wasn't trying to argue that Kobe is better than Wade (although I think he is just by a hair). I was just trying to confirm that Kobe did in fact get a pretty serious shoulder injury against my team since I remember it happening.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

compsciguy78 said:


> WAde is more efficient. Do you have proof that Arenas is?
> 
> I gave you FG%. Almost a 5% difference.
> 
> ...


ts% is the proper measure for scoring efficiency. it measures points per possession where a scoring attempt was made (divided by 2).


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> We'll have to check that out. Either way, MAMBA boy thinks Kobe's not-so-great-season in 04-05 was due to him re-injuring his shoulder(which you say took place on Feb. 13), so what would explain Kobe's rather mediocre season(by his standards) upto that point?


Don't refer to me as boy ever again, *no masked cursing please*. I would love to see you address me like that in person. Especially since we live in the same city. See what happens...


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> That's all I'm arguing is that Wade is more efficient basketball player. That's all I care about, especially when you are talking about 2 points a game difference. I will take the more efficient basketball player overall. 2 points a game doesn't make that much difference to me. If someone else is getting the points on the team that is great. The more efficient basketball player overall is better.
> 
> 
> Efficiency as a basketball player cannot be overrated.


I agree with this. I just want to give Arenas his due where he deserves it (he really is a remarkably efficient scorer for how many 3s he takes). 

But yes, Wade is the better basketball player.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> "_Glaringly obvious_" implies Kobe's WAYYY better than Wade and we know what sort of people think along those lines.


Kobe has achieved more than Wade (and dont factor how many years Wade has played compared to Kobe, because you so adamantly disregard their respective situation earlier) Kobe has more championships, more personal achievements, broke more records while playing for second fiddle to Shaq, while Wade had his way in leading the team, thats a _glaring _ example of how better Kobe is overall compared to Wade at this point of their career.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

compsciguy78 said:


> That's all I'm arguing is that Wade is more efficient basketball player. That's all I care about, especially when you are talking about 2 points a game difference. I will take the more efficient basketball player overall. 2 points a game doesn't make that much difference to me. If someone else is getting the points on the team that is great. The more efficient basketball player overall is better.
> 
> 
> Efficiency as a basketball player cannot be overrated.


i still don't know what you mean by efficiency. you were earlier using fg% as proof of superior efficiency.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

fwiw, these arguments of who is better are kinda silly. wade's on a high right now, they both had great regular seasons, and they're both awesome unstoppable players. they both have arguments in their favor.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

kflo said:


> i still don't know what you mean by efficiency. you were earlier using fg% as proof of superior efficiency.



It was just one of my arguments for Wade being a more efficient basketball player overall. 

ARe you saying FG% is not good proof? It's just part of the equation. 

You don't think someone shooting 5% higher then someone else is significant? 

I see where you are coming from. Arenas is an efficient scorer. I'm talking about efficiency as a basketball player. A player who shoots a higher FG% creates a ripple effect throughout the team. I will take the 2 points less a game if someone else gets them. Wade shooting less 3 pointers and concentrating on shooting a higher percentage overall creates more opportunities for his teammates. 



I shouldn't use the word efficiency. I see how everyone else defines efficiency and I was using efficiency as a team concept, within the team. You are using efficiency as purely individual scoring.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> True, but I think PJ's triangle offense played an even bigger role in Kobe's much improved shot selection. He seemed kinda lost under Rudy/Hamblem.


Wrong, it wasnt the triangle offense, that offense is hardly in effect when they played this season. Majority of the time, in case you dont know how typical Laker games are, Kobe gets the ball gets double teamed and he fires away. Not a triangle product. 

Though Kobe may looked lost in the system, the whole team was in disarray playing a system being ran by an ISO coach, (keep in mind the Lakers were in playoff contention until Tomjanovich stepped down) when he finally walked and Hamblem took inefficiently, the team lost a stable direction, the whole team went down as a result


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Kobe in 04-05 had plantar fasciitis all year long. Like Tim Duncan this year, he played through it because it doesn't heal without longterm rest, and it doesn't really get much worse if you keep playing on it. 

Kobe's ability to plant and explode was really the worst it's ever been last year, so you have to think that the plantar had something to do with it.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

compsciguy78 said:


> It was just one of my arguments for Wade being a more efficient basketball player overall.
> 
> ARe you saying FG% is not good proof? It's just part of the equation.
> 
> ...


i don't understand what you're saying.

5% higher is irrelevant if they have the same ts%. what's the ripple effect you're talking about? how does shooting a higher % overall create more opportunities for teammates?


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

see, after these playoffs, i am convinced its a 3 way tie between Kobe Lebron and Wade.
why?
they can all score, AT WILL
its IMPOSSIBLE to defend them
Kobe hass the defensive edge over Wade and Lebron but they have passing over him so its about even.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> It was just one of my arguments for Wade being a more efficient basketball player overall.
> 
> ARe you saying FG% is not good proof? It's just part of the equation.
> 
> ...


No man, that's what I went through explaining earlier. Arenas actually scores _more_ with the same number of shots. That's the scoring efficiency part. By scoring more with the same number of shots, the extra possessions can go to his teammates.

The other aspects of basketball like rebounding, etc. are what make Wade the overall more efficient player.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

kflo said:


> i don't understand what you're saying.
> 
> 5% higher is irrelevant if they have the same ts%. what's the ripple effect you're talking about? how does shooting a higher % overall create more opportunities for teammates?


It's complex. You either get it or you don't. I can explain it at a later time, but right now my head hurts and I don't feel like explaining the intricacies of offensive basketball.

Ask me again at a later time.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe in 04-05 had* plantar fasciitis * all year long. Like Tim Duncan this year, he played through it because it doesn't heal without longterm rest, and it doesn't really get much worse if you keep playing on it.


Ive tried to come up for the right term but you nailed it.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

compsciguy78 said:


> It's complex. You either get it or you don't. I can explain it at a later time, but right now my head hurts and I don't feel like explaining the intricacies of offensive basketball.
> 
> Ask me again at a later time.


if you're going to throw things out there, you should be prepared to explain what you mean. you haven't done so - you've simply thrown out theories without any substantiation. you're saying 2-6 0-0 6 pts is worse than 3-6 0-0 6 pts, yet offer nothing to support. is this a popular theory? maybe provide a simple link instead of explaining it yourself?


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

compsciguy78 said:


> It's complex. You either get it or you don't. I can explain it at a later time, *but right now my head hurts * and I don't feel like explaining the intricacies of offensive basketball.
> 
> Ask me again at a later time.


Not making fun of you, but that statement almost made me fell off my seat. LoL


----------



## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> I think that's fair. But if you throw out the rings, then that pulls Lebron back into the conversation.


Why would LeBron not be in the conversation?



> See also the Dallas 3 quarters game, and a game against the Grizzlies a few years back. And many many many other performances. Wade's careeer high in points is 48. He hasn't even cracked the 50 point barrier in a game yet. He hasn't averaged 30 points per game. He's just flat out not as explosive a scorer as Kobe and that is demonstarably a fact.


I'll give you that Kobe's a more "explosive" scorer than Wade. But I don't understand the significance of this, considering that players who score well above their norm more frequently than others, also have more subpar performances.



> Wade's not as good as his second team defense award. He just plays in front of good defensive centers...just like...shock! Kobe did when he won it!


You must be referring to all the minutes that Mourning logged in his 20 or so games as a member of the Heat last year.



> Wade passes more than Kobe, but he's not a better passer. Kobe has better vision and more creativity with his passes. Neither are on Lebron's level here though.


Creativity doesn't matter. Jason Williams when he entered the league was one of the most creative passers, but that said little about his effectiveness as a passer. I've observed little to suggest that Kobe has better vision than Wade.

And LeBron does have great vision, easily better than that of Kobe or Wade. But I don't think he has fully utilized that yet to become a great passer. When he does, that is what will further distance himself from the rest of the league.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Kobe has achieved more than Wade (and dont factor how many years Wade has played compared to Kobe, because you so adamantly disregard their respective situation earlier)


What situation? That fact that Kobe's been his franchise's MAIN GUY since 02-03 and is yet to lead his team to a championship ala Wade? Is that the situation you're talking about?



> Kobe has more championships


Good for him, although he's isn't the biggest reason for 'em(unlike Wade).



> And more personal achievements


Pointless statement. 10 years>3 years. 



> Wade had his way in leading the team, thats a _glaring _ example of how better Kobe is overall compared to Wade at this point of their career.


Yeah, Wade _leading his team_ to the championship(something Kobe's never done) w/ a Shaq that's 60% of his old self proves how much better Kobe is. Great point.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> What situation? That fact that Kobe's been his franchise's MAIN GUY since 02-03 and is yet to lead his team to a championship ala Wade? Is that the situation you're talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


....and it happens again........



ralaw 6/21/06 said:


> It won't be a race as much as it will be a selective fact used by Wade supporters over LeBron.
> 
> *James supporter*: "James is better than Wade, he has more talent"
> 
> ...


Wade leading the Heat to a championship has little to do with proving he is the better player. It's a rather useless fact because in the grand scheme of things it really has no value. At the end of the day Kobe has 3 to Wade's 1 and Kobe is nowhere near being finished while being equally if not more talented. However, I'm sure if Kobe were to do it you would slide your argument to, "Well Wade did it at a younger age while with Shaq!" I could just as easily ask when has Wade contained his skills for the betterment of the team to win 3 straight championships? I get tired of these arguments that are only limited by time.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

ralaw said:


> Wade leading the Heat to a championship has little to do with proving he is the better player. *It's a rather useless fact because in the grand scheme of things it really has no value.*


It IS the single biggest factor in judging greatness in the NBA and always has been. Being your team's MAIN MAN means everything and just because Kobe's yet to get it done as one, doesn't mean it has no value. Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, TD, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, MJ, Isiah etc are who they are because of leading their team to championships as its undisputed best player. Wade will join that company if he wins one or two more.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> It IS the single biggest factor in judging greatness in the NBA and always has been. Being your team's MAIN MAN means everything and just because Kobe's yet to get it done as one, doesn't mean it has no value. Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, TD, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, MJ, Isiah etc are who they are because of leading their team to championships as its undisputed best player. Wade will join that company if he wins one or two more.


I understand that, but it has no value until both players have retired. I remember people saying Olajajuwon was better than Shaq because he carried the Rockets to two championships. Now that Shaq has carried his team to 3 championships while being an important part of the 4th that argument has gone out the window. That is my point!


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## kingjameskicks (Jun 22, 2006)

wade is not the best player in the league. In fact he doesnt make the top 10. I would put these players ahead of him.

Dirk
lebron
Kg
duncan
billups 
Davis 
artest
shaq
Ak 47
Dunleavy


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

ralaw said:


> I understand that, but it has no value until both players have retired.


But why? Nobody's saying Kobe can or can't do it, but the FACT as of right now is that Wade's done it and Kobe hasn't despite being in a similar situation since 02-03(he's not a rookie, he'll be starting his 11th season next year). You can't dismiss the value of what Wade's done because only the SPECIAL ones lead their team to championships. This is a HUGE deal.



> I remember people saying Olajajuwon was better than Shaq because he carried the Rockets to two championships.


Olajuwon then was better than a young Shaq. Nothing wrong in people saying that.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> Yeah, Wade _leading his team_ to the championship(something Kobe's never done) w/ a Shaq that's 60% of his old self proves how much better Kobe is. Great point.


And Wade won a championship w/o Shaq? Even greater point.

I would like to see Wade lead his team to a championship w/o O'Neal, then we may have a better platform for argument.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

ralaw said:


> I could just as easily ask when has Wade contained his skills for the betterment of the team to win 3 straight championships? I get tired of these arguments that are only limited by time.


Seriously...


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Bryant was All-NBA 1st team when the Lakers won their 3rd title. 1st team defense also. Wade this year was 2nd team. Shaquille O'Neal was 1st team both times. FWIW.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

kingjameskicks said:


> wade is not the best player in the league. In fact he doesnt make the top 10. I would put these players ahead of him.
> 
> Dirk
> lebron
> ...



DUNLEAVY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :krazy: :krazy: :krazy: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> I would like to see Wade lead his team to a championship w/o O'Neal, then we may have a better platform for argument.


If Wade accomplishes that, then I&everybody else wouldn't be wasting their time on Wade>Kobe or Wade>LeBron but quickly jump on whether Wade=MJ.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> It's complex. You either get it or you don't. I can explain it at a later time, but right now my head hurts and I don't feel like explaining the intricacies of offensive basketball.
> 
> Ask me again at a later time.


Don't be ridiculous. kflo actually has a correct understanding of the situation. It's really not that complex, actually. 

Please don't act condescending because he doesn't agree with you. Many of us on this board understand "the intricacies of offensive basketball". Your original analysis with FG% was incorrect. We corrected you on it, and that should be it. It wasn't meant as an insult or anything. No big deal. 

It's in the best interest of the posters on this board to get all the statistical analysis correct, anyway.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> If Wade accomplishes that, then I&everybody else wouldn't be wasting their time on Wade>Kobe or Wade>LeBron but quickly jump on whether Wade=MJ.


So you see the point, that comparing Wade's ability to lead his team to a championship with a 60% Shaq to Kobe's one man show is pointless. Kobe's chance to prove he can lead is now, and 2 seasons later he has nothing to show for it..."True story", but as soon as Wade starts leading his team to a championship with no All Star on his side, then we'll talk about this again.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

SPMJ said:


> It IS the single biggest factor in judging greatness in the NBA and always has been. Being your team's MAIN MAN means everything and just because Kobe's yet to get it done as one, doesn't mean it has no value. Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, TD, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, MJ, Isiah etc are who they are because of leading their team to championships as its undisputed best player. Wade will join that company if he wins one or two more.


does wade's 1 title as "the man" carry more weight than kobe's 3 titles? does isiah get more credit for his 2 titles as "the man" carry more than kobe's 3 even though kobe's production was superior to isiah's? where did magic's 3 titles, sharing the spotlight with kareem (through '85) rank him? also remember, kobe's almost always been the go-to guy, if not "the man".

i'm not saying that it doesn't matter, but i think sometimes we get too caught up in who is the man, and less in what did they contribute.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> So you see the point, that comparing Wade's ability to lead his team to a championship with a 60% Shaq to Kobe's one man show is pointless. Kobe's chance to prove he can lead is now, and 2 seasons later he has nothing to show for it..."True story", but as soon as Wade starts leading his team to a championship with no All Star on his side, then we'll talk about this again.


That's the problem with comparing any two players by wins. Everyone is in a different situation. The sum of a team will determine the number of wins someone can get. No single person could beat a team by himself. And it's very rare for one superstar to be able to win a championship without another all star and some really great role players. Maybe Hakeem and a few others did it without another all star on the team, but those teams that won the championship had a great all around team. And usually you need a great coach to win, too. 

There are just too many factors involved in getting a team wins than one person. Obviously one player makes a huge difference, but once his team gets to a very high level, many other things need to fall into place to get a championship. These things never fell into place for Barkley, Malone, Stockton, and others. They fell into place really well for players like Jordan, Russell, etc. Both those players had some great teammates, role players, and coaches.

It's best just to watch games, observe how a player contributes in different ways to the team, and formulate an opinion. Does the player contribute significantly to the production of the team? Does the player put his team on his back when they need it? What tools does he have in his arsenal? Supplement your opinion with stats. Understand what the stats mean.

But the people that say Kobe > Wade > Lebron because 3 > 1 > 0 just isn't doing very much thinking. Observe how they played and what they contributed to the team. There are other players that contribute about the same amount to their team, but their team can't add the rest of the necessary production to win a championship.

All this bickering about having to lead a team by yourself is dumb. You don't have to lead a team by yourself. It doesn't really work. How a player contributes to his team is much more important.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Brandname said:


> That's the problem with comparing any two players by wins. Everyone is in a different situation.


And that is why I hate debating a topic to someone who hates a player on what seems like on a personal level, the level of failure regardless of how different each players situation and their flaws will be exposed eventhough its sometimes irrelevant on the topic. 

Its also amazing how someone can crucify Kobe for not being able to lead a team to championship like Wade did, given the fact that Kobe's being evaluated base on 2 short years, not to mention the different situation both players are into, its absurd to a certain extent.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

kingjameskicks said:


> wade is not the best player in the league. In fact he doesnt make the top 10. I would put these players ahead of him.
> 
> Dirk
> lebron
> ...


Posts like these make me wish there was a such thing as negative rep....

Mike Dunleavy jr? Kirilenko? Billups? Baron Davis? As for Shaq...Wade was clearly the best player on the Heat. And where is Kobe? Get your head straight man...


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Drewbs said:


> Posts like these make me wish there was a such thing as negative rep....
> 
> Mike Dunleavy jr? Kirilenko? Billups? Baron Davis? As for Shaq...Wade was clearly the best player on the Heat. And where is Kobe? Get your head straight man...


I can't imagine it was a serious post. It had to be just to get a rise out of people.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

there is no such thing as the 'best player in the league' 

wade is among the best in all around ability. kobe is the best scorer and the best loser. lebron has the best all around ability.


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## al3usive (May 11, 2005)

Wade is the best guard in the league.

Best player can be argued. it may be Duncan, Lebron at other positions.


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## master8492 (Mar 4, 2005)

I guess winning a title and final's MVP make you the best player in the league? Can't argue with that; At least he's the best player this year...


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

kflo said:


> i'm not saying that it doesn't matter, but i think sometimes we get too caught up in who is the man, and less in what did they contribute.


It's also important to remember how good the teams were. It's not fair to assume that all champions are equal. Kobe was a top five player on the best team of the past 10 years (2001 Lakers). 

You can also look at minutes. Kobe played more minutes than anyone on the Lakers in the final two title runs, in both the regular season and playoffs of those last two title years. If Phil Jackson is putting you out there 41-45 minutes per night, and you're winning titles, your value cannot be overlooked.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

This may be taking the topic somewhere else, I haven't read all 15(!) pages, but there's something to say about the help Wade has compared to pretty much the all of the top 2-guards in the league. Out of Kobe, Lebron, AI, T-Mac, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and Vince Carter among others (I know I'm forgetting a star), only Vince has truly comparable talent around him. Is it safe to say that Wade probably has less attention on him than any elite 2-guard in the league? 

Whereas people put him a notch above the others off this final run, I put him at max on their levels, considering the way the teams look around these guys. The only time Wade is direly needed by the Heat pretty much is in the 4th quarter. He has that "closer" role analysts love to give him, whereas all those other guys have to pretty much on top of their game for their team to have a _chance_. Through all that, I kind've forgot my point, but that's just to quiet some of the "Wade's a winner" talk. I'd go as far as to say the Heat could take anyone of those aforementioned players to the players to the finals. 

I probably sound like a bitter Mavs fan right now, don't get me wrong, Wade is outstanding, but he's not the best. He's being overrated, which is pretty much to be expected after the run he had. If the media was talking about how "Lebron/Kobe is still better", that would be unfair to him.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

God bless SPMJ and compsciguy for trying to argue basketball statistics with kflo.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

If Wade is the best player in the league does that make Kirk Hinrich the best defender in the league?

The All-defense teams are joke and Hinrich not making a team if proof of it


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Pioneer10 said:


> If Wade is the best player in the league does that make Kirk Hinrich the best defender in the league?
> 
> The All-defense teams are joke and Hinrich not making a team if proof of it


My God, what I'd do to have Kirk on the Cavs.


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