# Today's Game Discussion [TNT Double Header: Clippers @ Heat | Lakers @ Rockets - 11/7/13]



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*7:00 PM EST TNT 







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*9:00 PM EST FSS, ALT 







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*9:30 PM EDT TNT 







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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Is it weird that the middle game might turn out important for tanking position?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

A couple of nice ones on TNT. This would be the perfect game for Kobe to surprise everyone by announcing he is playing.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Excited for Clippers/Heat. Neither of which have been playing to their expectations. Someone is going to take a hit in the power rankings if they lose.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

115-95 Heat. 82-101 Rockets. 135-120 Nuggets


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

The Lakers are going to get royally crushed.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Hibachi! said:


> The Lakers are going to get royally crushed.


:nono:


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I want Dwight shooting 30 free throws. No excuses. 


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I guess Matt Barnes is out tonight. I should have realized he had gotten hurt when I saw Willie Green on the floor last night.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

No idea who to root for


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## Kreutz35 (Dec 23, 2011)

The NBA released this year's designs for the Christmas Day jerseys. Sleeved and no numbers on the front. Thoughts? To me, they're just glorified t-shirts.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Derrick rose, Tim Duncan and now Ray Allen. How many other nba players have cut out sugar and grains?


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

kreutz35 said:


> The NBA released this year's designs for the Christmas Day jerseys. Sleeved and no numbers on the front. Thoughts? To me, they're just glorified t-shirts.


Terrible.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Dwight Howard's shirt would be tight on me, what a ****ing tool.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Luke said:


> Dwight Howard's shirt would be tight on me, what a ****ing tool.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Of course, you're fatter than him.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Jamel Irief said:


> Of course, you're fatter than him.


You're right, I'm standing at a morbidly obese 6'1 186. 


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Luke said:


> You're right, I'm standing at a morbidly obese 6'1 186.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Sounds fatter than Dwight to me. 

For reference this is 6'1" 180. 










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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Never understood why it takes teams so long to foul.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

This game needs to hurry up. Lakers game started.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Great pass by Nick Young to the corner. WHAT?


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

This Laker team is a much different kind of fun than last year's.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Craig Sager's suit has been more interesting than tonight's LAL vs HOU game so far.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Lakers with a great start to the game. 36-19 after one. Hope they keep it up.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

zanshadow said:


> Craig Sager's suit has been more interesting than tonight's LAL vs HOU game so far.


What's not interesting about it?


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Too lopsided.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Houston looks like they don't even care out there. Non existent hustle.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I like when the inferior team gets up big early, because you know there is a good chance the better team will come back and make it a good game.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

zanshadow said:


> Too lopsided.


Good. Hopefully it stays that way.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Damn, I knew a run was coming sooner or later. Lead cut to 10.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I like when the inferior team gets up big early, because you know there is a good chance the better team will come back and make it a good game.


True. Shiet's about to go down just about now. Lead cut to 10. *GASP


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Awkward moment of the night:

D'Antoni screaming "DEFENSE! COME ON DEFENSE!".


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Rockets missed 7 straight free throws before finally making one.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Too many turnovers.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Dwight choking in a big game? Never thought I'd see this.

Look guys, I understand the Lakers are a jugernaught. It shows with Nick Youngs magic passes. But I really thought Dwight would make a statement tonight.


Just saw Harden take 7 steps and draw a foul. Awesome.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

If our threes stop falling in the 2nd half, we're screwed.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Kevin McHale wasn't joking. Houston is awful at throwing alley-oops.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Houston might shoot 50+ free throws tonight.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Basel said:


> Houston might shoot 50+ free throws tonight.


The Lakers might still make more.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

:laugh: This is getting ridiculous.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Freethrow fest for Harden. It's pretty much keeping the Rockets in the game.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Right now, as the Rockets are being smoked by the Kobe-less Lakers, the announcer is talking about how great Dwight is defensively, and how great Wade is on D for the Heat.

This mother ****er needs to lose his job.


Jodie Meeks just came in the game. Check mate bitches!


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

64-50 Lakers at half. Shoot 11/14 from 3-point range, including the last 7 they've taken.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Browsing NBA.com for game stats, I just found this.

http://store.nba.com/search/face mask

LoL


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

If it wasn't cheap whistle fest for Harden we'd be up by 30...


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Paul Millsap is so much better than Josh Smith.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

If that Ryan Anderson deal is still on the table for Houston, they need to take it. Asik and Dwight together is incredibly redundant.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

They're giving Harden calls out there like people are picking on a homeless guy.

I think it's the beard.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Harden's extremely good at creating the contact and make it look like defender's fault.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Terrible call. That was terrific defense by Farmar. What a bailout.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Harden is a player who is hard to guard without fouling, and the Lakers are team with slow perimeter defenders. No surprise on all the foul calls.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Bullshit whistles


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

ATLien said:


> Paul Millsap is so much better than Josh Smith.


I just checked and Josh is averaging 7 3PA per game! It was about 1-2 during his time in Atlanta, in a much larger sample size.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Dwight Howard coming out. Good news for Houston.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Glad we sort of weathered that storm and have that lead back at 7.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Farmar... What a blunder. Could have been up 9. End up by 4. Huge swing.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

ATLien said:


> I just checked and Josh is averaging 7 3PA per game! It was about 1-2 during his time in Atlanta, in a much larger sample size.


His coach says most of Smith's shots are open looks which he can live with. But it still doesn't change the fact that he's shooting extremely poorly and causing so many loss of possession, nearly 5TO per game.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Nervous about the 4th quarter.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

zanshadow said:


> His coach says most of Smith's shots are open looks which he can live with. But it still doesn't change the fact that he's shooting extremely poorly and causing so many loss of possession, nearly 5TO per game.


And there's probably a reason his looks are so open...


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

James Harden just too much. I sense a blowout coming.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Ugh.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

I am finally starting to like this game. Ugly ugly stretch for both teams but intensive.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Lakers players (besides Gasol) playing about as good of agame as you could imagine given the caliber of players on the floor.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Hibachi! said:


> Lakers players (besides Gasol) playing about as good of agame as you could imagine given the caliber of players on the floor.


That's what people said opening night on this forum. 


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

This is just a ugly game. Yuck


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

****.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Hack-A-Dwight sighting.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Lol Flop on gasol


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Awesome, another close game down the stretch tainted by hack-a-player strategies.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Live by the three die by the three


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

I actually enjoy watching Dwight shooting FTs. You never know what you're gonna get.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Looks like my friends playing at the park lol

Lakers fitting in a new roster and a new system and their best player is out injured. What is Houston's excuse for such sloppy play at home ??


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Awesome, another close game down the stretch tainted by hack-a-player strategies.


It will end at the 2:00 min mark


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

LoL. Hack-A-Dwight actually worked. Now a close game.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

That was a foul on Harden. WTF?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Meaningless review. It went off Meeks because he was hit.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Man how do you miss that? If he hit the ball it wouldn't have gone towards Blake's leg. After all the times Houston has gotten to the line that's some be.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Why did they inbound the ball to Howard ?? Thanks Houston !


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

So much for Dwight shooting 80% this year from the free throw line.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

I just shat my pants.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Steve Blake!


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

STEVE ****ING BLAKE **** YOU DWIGHT


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Houston. Lol. That was some of the worst defensen I've ever seen on a final possession.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Awesome, another close game down the stretch tainted by hack-a-player strategies.


It's a strategy


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

STEVE BLAKE!!!!!


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

Wow. Rockets losing to this Lakers team is a damn shame.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Must be a feel good victory for the LAL fans. Dwight Howard pretty much cost this game with missed freethrows at the end which could have put the game away.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Steve Blake gives zero ****s....


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Ah, what a beautiful game


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

You really have to take a look at yourself in the mirror when you let Steve Blake kill you like that. He was getting by Harden at will.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Really bad loss for Houston.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

So ****ing awesome


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## Smath (Nov 29, 2010)

Steve Blake for the win! on D12's over rated ass! boy I bet Kobe is sitting at home and smiling his teeth out haha! what a game!


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

BREAKING NEWS: Multiple sources confirm Dwight Howard is unhappy with his situation in Houston, demands trade to team that won't make him shoot his own free throws. 


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Awesome, another close game down the stretch tainted by hack-a-player strategies.


With a team like, we have to do whatever it takes to get road victories. 

5 for 16 ?? Don't be surprised is other teams start doing it to Howard game after game.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Luke said:


> It's a strategy


I said it was a strategy in the very post you quoted. Walking the ball up the court every single play and minimizing possessions is also a strategy. I don't have to like it.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Harden offensively is a beast. Defensively he might be the worst in the NBA. No joke.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Hibachi! said:


> Harden offensively is a beast. Defensively he might be the worst in the NBA. No joke.


He was a good enough defender in OKC. He is capable, but since taking on the offensive load in Houston, it's like he just doesn't care anymore.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Hibachi! said:


> Harden offensively is a beast. Defensively he might be the worst in the NBA. No joke.


Notice Meeks wouldn't let Harden go left on that final play and he settled for a jumper. Another thing teams should be doing against the Rockets.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Also to note, Kaman starting alongside Pau was a nice change of pace. D'Antoni came to senses finally.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Terrible loss. Rockets should have never have been down by that much to begin with. Kudos to the Lakers, you couldn't ask for more from your role players. That inbound error really hurt. 

Pau sucked tonight.


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## Kreutz35 (Dec 23, 2011)




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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

^Is Nash allowed to hold Lin like that or am I seeing something different?


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

OneBadLT123 said:


> ^Is Nash allowed to hold Lin like that or am I seeing something different?


Lol you're reaching. That happens on every last second play. You can tell by Lin's reaction that it wasn't because Nash held him, but because he and Beverly had a miscommunication.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Hibachi! said:


> Lol you're reaching. That happens on every last second play. You can tell by Lin's reaction that it wasn't because Nash held him, but because he and Beverly had a miscommunication.


Reaching when video evidence clearly shows him bear hugging him? Um ok. Sure


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> He was a good enough defender in OKC. He is capable, but since taking on the offensive load in Houston, it's like he just doesn't care anymore.


It's probably because of fatigue.

He is playing alot more minutes and also shouldering alot more of an offensive load, probably conserving his energy.


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

btw dwight howard is pathetic, 

even Shaq was much better at FT's in the clutch.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Meh... Makes up for the foul they didn't call on the drive by Meeks.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Fantastic win for the Lakers, who are severelly handicapped by Kobe's injury and Gasol and Nash's retirenment.

James Harden just blows my mind: it's not that he doesn't play defense (that's a given), it's the fact that he DOESN'T WANT to play defense.


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## Smath (Nov 29, 2010)

Rockets are a good team, but its not like they are winning anything... you can't win with the 2 stars wich are the most over rated stars in the NBA , Harden - doesn't play D , D12 - no offensive game


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

So Dwight chokes against the Lakers, even in his home building, and we're supposed to fear him? 

And as for Harden, after getting torched by Steve Blake, can the "Hes also a pretty good defender" crowd please shut the hell up? James Harden is a terrible defender, as I've said all along.


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## Smath (Nov 29, 2010)

I don't think he's a terrible defender, I just think like ppl said here before... He doesn't want to play D because he puts all his energy on the offensive side and the transition game.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Smath said:


> I don't think he's a terrible defender, I just think like ppl said here before... He doesn't want to play D because he puts all his energy on the offensive side and the transition game.


That's cool. If you don't try at all on defense and don't want to play defense, you're a terrible defender. 

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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

He's capable of playing good D, he's just lazy now. Not an excuse. I remember he gave Kobe some problems a few years ago when he was in OKC.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Nothing yet changes the fact that the Rockets are a contender. They were a one great piece away from becoming a serious contender last season and acquiring Dwight exactly did that. Adjustment period is what we're seeing. They got their flaws to work on as even the defending champ does but they probably already had their plans to make adjustment throughout the season as most serious contenders do. I expect them to be actually better at the end of the season.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Lol, the Rockets are not a contender. Jeremy Lin sucks, Harden is a one way player, and Dwight is grossly overrated. The Heat, Pacers, Bulls, Nets, Spurs, Thunder, Warriors and maybe even the Clippers or Grizzlies are better than them.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Luke said:


> Lol, the Rockets are not a contender. Jeremy Lin sucks, Harden is a one way player, and Dwight is grossly overrated. The Heat, Pacers, Bulls, Nets, Spurs, Thunder, Warriors and maybe even the Clippers or Grizzlies are better than them.


You really seem to know your basketball. Notice how it's easy to say things but hard to back them up.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

zanshadow said:


> Nothing yet changes the fact that the Rockets are a contender. They were a one great piece away from becoming a serious contender last season and acquiring Dwight exactly did that. *Adjustment period is what we're seeing*. They got their flaws to work on as even the defending champ does but they probably already had their plans to make adjustment throughout the season as most serious contenders do. *I expect them to be actually better at the end of the season*.


I agree it's too soon into the season to forecast the Rockets' "demise" (so to speak).
But the lack of perimeter defense and Howard's ineptitude on the offensive end aren't great endorsements for a contender status. And i don't see the team and/or Howard getting substantially (sp?)better at it.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

PauloCatarino said:


> But the lack of perimeter defense and Howard's ineptitude on the offensive end aren't great endorsements for a contender status. And i don't see the team and/or Howard getting substantially (sp?)better at it.


What I see is actually quite simple.

First of all they're now 4-2 with .667 winning percentage which is actually nothing to panic about. They were a 45 wins team last year. You replace last season's mediocre Asik(avg PER with avg everything on a offensive juggernaut team) with healthy Howard, you probably have good ground to believe they added 15 wins to the team especially considering synergy effect to occur. And they didn't lose Asik yet either. He's a trade asset and will be probably gone later this season as him and Howard both like to operate in a same space. I generally consider 60+win teams contenders as great percentage of champs consists of teams of 60 or more wins otherwise for a few hiccups here and there. The Rockets with healthy Dwight should now be close to being a 60+wins team if not one already.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

The Rockets are not a 60 win team. And even if they do manage to win 60 (they won't by the way), you don't win in the playoffs by playing 0 D. The Rockets have absolutely no perimeter D, and Howard has shown he is extremely overrated on D since leaving Orlando. Stan Van Gundy should have those DPOY's, not Dwight.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

R-Star said:


> So Dwight chokes against the Lakers, even in his home building, and we're supposed to fear him?
> 
> And as for Harden, after getting torched by Steve Blake, can the "Hes also a pretty good defender" crowd please shut the hell up? James Harden is a terrible defender, as I've said all along.


Can the Harden > Wade crowd go away too, Or am I reaching ?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Harden vs healthy Wade easily goes to Wade.

Not sure we'll ever see that guy for more than a few games at a time at this point though.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

You know when a commentator (Steve Kerr in this case) says something to the tune of: "Well Nash may be their best option but *Steve Blake* has been able to drive by Harden all night." As James Harden you might think "Maybe I can sacrifice a couple of points on offense by playing at least a TINY bit of defense.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Harden vs healthy Wade easily goes to Wade.
> 
> Not sure we'll ever see that guy for more than a few games at a time at this point though.


I agree with you, but there's still a crowd that out there that thinks Harden > Healthy Wade. Sad but true


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm actually a Wade fan and I can confirm that Harden was a better player than Wade last season. But it's important to note Wade played a lot of games with bad knee and it was still a close call.



R-Star said:


> The Rockets are not a 60 win team. And even if they do manage to win 60 (they won't by the way), you don't win in the playoffs by playing 0 D. The Rockets have absolutely no perimeter D, and Howard has shown he is extremely overrated on D since leaving Orlando. Stan Van Gundy should have those DPOY's, not Dwight.


I can understand people's hatred on his demeanor but this entire witch hunt type of accusation is ust silly. Nothing suggests that he was overrated in ORL. He was a beast no matter how you put it. That is why *healthy is the keyword for him in HOU if they want to add 15 wins to 45 wins from last season.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

zanshadow said:


> I'm actually a Wade fan and I can confirm that Harden was a better player than Wade last season. But it's important to note Wade played a lot of games with bad knee and it was still a close call.
> 
> 
> I can understand people's hatred on his demeanor but this entire witch hunt type of accusation is ust silly. Nothing suggests that he was overrated in ORL. He was a beast no matter how you put it. That is why *healthy is the keyword for him in HOU if they want to add 15 wins to 45 wins from last season.


He said overrated since leaving Orlando, not IN Orlando. And he's right.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Healthy?

Dwight still isn't healthy?

So he just gets that excuse for the rest of his career? Or could it be that Stan Van built an entire team and system around Dwight on defense?


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

The last 2 days have made me completely change my mind about R-Star. he's a badass


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

zanshadow said:


> You really seem to know your basketball. Notice how it's easy to say things but hard to back them up.


What would you like me to back up


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

If Dwights still not healthy, than he'll never be healthy


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Saying that adding Dwight automatically adds 15 wins is retarded. Miami added LeBron James and Chris Bosh and they won 11 more games the next year (47 to 58). Is Dwight more impactful than LBJ and Bosh or are you a pompous fanboy?


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

Luke said:


> Saying that adding Dwight automatically adds 15 wins is retarded. Miami added LeBron James and Chris Bosh and they won 11 more games the next year (47 to 58). Is Dwight more impactful than LBJ and Bosh or are you a pompous fanboy?
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


You should changed your avatar too Gasols face and have it say Better call Gasol


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Healthy?
> 
> Dwight still isn't healthy?
> 
> So he just gets that excuse for the rest of his career? Or could it be that Stan Van built an entire team and system around Dwight on defense?


Obviously I think he is healthy. Don't you think it's the reason why I even consider the Rockets a contender?

Stan Van reference is just silly. It's stupid and boring just like people claiming Doc Rivers suddenly turned Clippers into a significantly better team. Sure, but by how much, even better by how many wins?



Luke said:


> Saying that adding Dwight automatically adds 15 wins is retarded. Miami added LeBron James and Chris Bosh and they won 11 more games the next year (47 to 58). Is Dwight more impactful than LBJ and Bosh or are you a pompous fanboy?


That's what usually happens when you put players together who thrives in same space(ie. Asik/Dwight). It took time but the Heat figured it out. Comparing Heat and Rockets isn't apple too apple, don't you think?

Absolutely denying the Rockets as a top tier team now is being in denial. There're clearly possibility and signs. I can understand the reasons but heck this is all too folly.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

zanshadow said:


> Obviously I think he is healthy. Don't you think it's the reason why I even consider the Rockets a contender?
> 
> *Stan Van reference is just silly.* It's stupid and boring just like people claiming Doc Rivers suddenly turned Clippers into a significantly better team. Sure, but by how much, even better by how many wins?
> 
> ...


Dwight's defense was infinitely better in Orlando than what hes shown in LA and Houston. But we shouldn't take coaching into account as a possible reason why?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

hobojoe said:


> That's cool. If you don't try at all on defense and don't want to play defense, you're a terrible defender.


He isn't the first perimeter superstar to be a capable defender that took a lot of defensive plays off because of his offensive burden. If you say Kobe was a terrible defender for the majority of his career using the same line of reasoning, people on this forum would flip out.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

James Harden isn't bad at defense...rather he is flagrantly avoiding playing any sort of defense. He chases his man on d, which is the international sign of "I dont give a shit" for defensive scouting. Thats a habit that most guys get flushed out of them in high school. You have to beat your man to the spot, and maybe fight through some other guys who may be trying to stop you. Offenses love when the defensive player just follows the cut man, in the NBA especially any capable shooter has enough time to get the shot off if his man is just chasing him.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> He isn't the first perimeter superstar to be a capable defender that took a lot of defensive plays off because of his offensive burden. If you say Kobe was a terrible defender for the majority of his career using the same line of reasoning, people on this forum would flip out.


You really want to accuse Kobe of lack of effort? 

Kobe's problem is he tries to be a hero free safety and guard the entire team, sometimes losing his man in the process. 

His on ball D is great. He played cp3 better than almost anyone I saw last year. 


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> He isn't the first perimeter superstar to be a capable defender that took a lot of defensive plays off because of his offensive burden.


I agree. All I'm saying is when you're talking about the prospects of the Rockets this season, what Harden _could_ do defensively is not nearly as relevant as the defense (or lack thereof) he actually plays in his particular role on the Rockets.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

People would flip out at calling Kobe a terrible defender for the majority of his career because that statement is simply false. He's been terrible for last three years, sure, but he's about to enter his eighteenth season. 


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Only reason Kobe stinks at D now is because he's old as shit. He actually earned most of his defensive reputation over the years, unlike Wade who just got a couple highlight blocks a game and that somehow translated to lockdown defense to the media and garnered unwarranted awards.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

hobojoe said:


> I agree. All I'm saying is when you're talking about the prospects of the Rockets this season, what Harden _could_ do defensively is not nearly as relevant as the defense (or lack thereof) he actually plays in his particular role on the Rockets.


I see what you're saying, but to say he is a terrible defender is false. You can say he has played terrible defense, but he is not a terrible defender. It's like saying a great defensive anchor who is also a good scorer goes to a team where he has to spend much energy on defense and less on offense so his scoring suffers. This does not mean he is no longer a good scorer. It just means it's situational, and it goes back to do-it-all players who could excel at anything on the court if they were given the freedom to focus on them. Harden's scoring and offensive skillset is where they need his energy.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

R-Star said:


> Only reason Kobe stinks at D now is because he's old as shit. He actually earned most of his defensive reputation over the years, unlike Wade who just got a couple highlight blocks a game and that somehow translated to lockdown defense to the media and garnered unwarranted awards.


Yeah kind of like how blocks per game translates to DPOY.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I see what you're saying, but to say he is a terrible defender is false. You can say he has played terrible defense, but he is not a terrible defender. It's like saying a great defensive anchor who is also a good scorer goes to a team where he has to spend much energy on defense and less on offense so his scoring suffers. This does not mean he is no longer a good scorer. It just means it's situational, and it goes back to do-it-all players who could excel at anything on the court if they were given the freedom to focus on them. Harden's scoring and offensive skillset is where they need his energy.


James Harden is not a good defender.

Why in the hell are you trying to argue otherwise?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Luke said:


> People would flip out at calling Kobe a terrible defender for the majority of his career because that statement is simply false. He's been terrible for last three years, sure, but he's about to enter his eighteenth season.


Kobe was like most of the perimeter superstars when it comes to defense. He was a great defender in spots, and took on challenges when presented (see someone like Chris Paul), but on a nightly basis he missed rotations and was caught out of position enough that if someone who wasn't an offensive juggernaut did them, they'd be benched. 

This is the case for Harden. It's the case for Durant, Wade (pre-LeBron), Paul, etc. Even LeBron at times makes such simple defensive mistakes that he would otherwise never make (although LeBron is easily the most consistent defensive perimeter superstar since Jordan). 

They're not bad defenders. Defense just isn't priority in terms of energy expenditure.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

R-Star said:


> James Harden is not a good defender.
> 
> Why in the hell are you trying to argue otherwise?


Because I've seen otherwise for the majority of his career so far when he didn't have to carry an entire offense.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Because I've seen otherwise for the majority of his career so far when he didn't have to carry an entire offense.


So he hasn't played any meaningful defense at all in Houston, even in the playoffs, yet he gets a free pass from you and is still a good defender. That's cute.

I love how he still gets the "no help on offense" excuse too. Chandler Parsons is as good or better offensively than anyone Paul George plays. How can George manage to be the main offensive weapon and still play lock down D?

I'll give you a hint. Because he's actually a talented defender. Unlike Harden who is not.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Here's the thing, you guys.

Paul George is solid, George Hill is solid. The Pacers were the best defense in the league because of the system. And they would never, NEVER, allow a player to go one-on-one only. It's instanity.

You guys, Bruce Bowen was nowhere near the defensive player that LeBron James is. It's simply not up for negotiation. LeBron is more athletic, larger, just as smart, etc.

But, and here's the key, you guys, the Spurs defensive system was based around the idea that Bowen could overplay, harass, kick in the face, etc. his man, and the team would rotate to cover up any lapses.

The only thing Shane Battier will see of Derrick Rose or Chris Paul is the back of their jersey. Tony Allen can't stop Durant one-on-one once Durant has the ball. Kobe Bryant won't lockdown anyone one-on-one unless we aren't counting one or two plays a game. If that. He can't afford it.

You can't fully isolate because of the zone anymore. One-on-one is basically irrelevant information. You guys.

So here's the thing again, you guys. Both Kobe and Harden's case goes to show that innate offensive ability is vastly more important than defensive ability as with a proper system you can get most any NBA players to play competent defense. But you can't turn Chuck Hayes into Dirk Nowitzki. Think about that.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

Defense in basketball is rarely a system, especially in the NBA where pure zones are illegal. Thats nonsense. The famous stay in between your man and the goal system...haha. James Harden is bad at defense because James Harden doesn't want to be good at defense plain and simple. There are some guys who lack the athleticism to stay in front of their man, James Harden is not one of these guys. Its purely not a priority to him.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe was like most of the perimeter superstars when it comes to defense. He was a great defender in spots, and took on challenges when presented (see someone like Chris Paul), but on a nightly basis he missed rotations and was caught out of position enough that if someone who wasn't an offensive juggernaut did them, they'd be benched.
> 
> This is the case for Harden. It's the case for Durant, Wade (pre-LeBron), Paul, etc. Even LeBron at times makes such simple defensive mistakes that he would otherwise never make (although LeBron is easily the most consistent defensive perimeter superstar since Jordan).
> 
> They're not bad defenders. Defense just isn't priority in terms of energy expenditure.


Everything written in this post is absolute bullshit. Harden is not anywhere near a prime Kobe defensively. He isn't even 2 tiers down from him. It's not close.

When Kobe, Lebron, etc are playing D do they occasionally make a bad choice or missed assignment? Sure. So did Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen, and every other non star premier defender we've seen. So your "they're stars, they make mistakes because they try so hard on offense" is completely false.

It's just an excuse people try to use when their star player quits playing D.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

R-Star said:


> So he hasn't played any meaningful defense at all in Houston, even in the playoffs, yet he gets a free pass from you and is still a good defender. That's cute.
> 
> I love how he still gets the "no help on offense" excuse too. Chandler Parsons is as good or better offensively than anyone Paul George plays. How can George manage to be the main offensive weapon and still play lock down D?
> 
> I'll give you a hint. Because he's actually a talented defender. Unlike Harden who is not.


A) Paul George doesn't carry nearly the offensive load that Harden does. You're comparing a 26ppg and 6apg player vs. a 17ppg and 4apg player last season. 

B) Could it be that George is playing with a guy who you apparently think is one of the all-time great defensive anchors? 

I believe is George is a better defender than Harden, but that doesn't mean Harden is a terrible defender.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Geaux Tigers said:


> Defense in basketball is rarely a system, especially in the NBA where pure zones are illegal. Thats nonsense. The famous stay in between your man and the goal system...haha. James Harden is bad at defense because James Harden doesn't want to be good at defense plain and simple. There are some guys who lack the athleticism to stay in front of their man, James Harden is not one of these guys. Its purely not a priority to him.


This is what I'm getting at. There is a distinction between someone like Steve Nash who is a terrible defender and someone like James Harden who is _now_ a terrible defender in his current situation. When he was a 3rd option in an elite defensive system, he was a good defender. He had active hands, stayed in front of his man and made the correct defensive rotations. 

I'll just leave it at that.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

James Harden is terrible at defense. It's not an argument it shouldn't be discussed and we should move on too todays game discussion since the Rockets already lost on their home floor against a team without their best player and picked 12th to finish in the West.

The Goat has spoken


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> This is what I'm getting at. There is a distinction between someone like Steve Nash who is a terrible defender and someone like James Harden who is _now_ a terrible defender in his current situation. When he was a 3rd option in an elite defensive system, he was a good defender. He had active hands, stayed in front of his man and made the correct defensive rotations.
> 
> I'll just leave it at that.


That makes it worse not better. Because he still "plays" on the defensive side of the ball every game. Its not like he's bad at driving a motorcycle because he doesn't drive a motorcycle. He is expected to play defense every game, and he doesnt.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Geaux Tigers said:


> That makes it worse not better. Because he still "plays" on the defensive side of the ball every game. Its not like he's bad at driving a motorcycle because he doesn't drive a motorcycle. He is expected to play defense every game, and he doesnt.


Technically he still does play defense, just not as well as he used to. The real question is not whether or not he is a good defender (he is has proven in more years than not that he is an average to above average defender). The question is whether or not you deem it acceptable for his defensive effort to slip with increased offensive responsibility. 

I don't think defensive effort should slip, but Harden is not the first player to have their defense suffer with increased offensive load. In fact, it is pretty common.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> A) Paul George doesn't carry nearly the offensive load that Harden does. You're comparing a 26ppg and 6apg player vs. a 17ppg and 4apg player last season.
> 
> B) Could it be that George is playing with a guy who you apparently think is one of the all-time great defensive anchors?
> 
> I believe is George is a better defender than Harden, but that doesn't mean Harden is a terrible defender.


How many point is George averaging now? Quite funny you went with last years numbers. George and Harden are both carrying about the same offensive load this season. Why is George playing and excelling at D, and Harden isn't even playing any?

Answer that question please.

The answer is because Harden is not a quality defender.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> This is what I'm getting at. There is a distinction between someone like Steve Nash who is a terrible defender and someone like James Harden who is _now_ a terrible defender in his current situation. When he was a 3rd option in an elite defensive system,* he was a good defender. *He had active hands, stayed in front of his man and made the correct defensive rotations.
> 
> I'll just leave it at that.


No he wasn't.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I used last year because they've played 6 games this season. Here is both last season and this season combined, so we've got every game in the past year included. 

Harden (84 games) 26ppg, 5.7apg
George (84 games) 17.9ppg, 4.1apg


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

If you want I'll only use the games where George scored 25+ and only use the games Harden scored less than 25. We can probably get the narrative you're aiming for that way.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> If you want I'll only use the games where George scored 25+ and only use the games Harden scored less than 25. We can probably get the narrative you're aiming for that way.


So you refuse to answer why George is his teams clear cut 1st option just like Harden, but he plays lock down D while Harden doesn't even try?

You wont answer that?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

R-Star said:


> So you refuse to answer why George is his teams clear cut 1st option just like Harden, but he plays lock down D while Harden doesn't even try?
> 
> You wont answer that?


George doesn't carry the same offensive load as Harden. 

Counter-question: Do you think George is a better offensive player than Harden?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> George doesn't carry the same offensive load as Harden.
> 
> Counter-question: Do you think George is a better offensive player than Harden?


I think he is close but give the edge to Harden if talking about pure offense without taking anything else into account.

George is clearly the better overall player of the two.

Instead of answering my question with a question, actually answer it please.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

George is a better offensive player than Harden yes


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

Harden is so overrated It makes me wanna shoot myself


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

LeGoat06 said:


> George is a better offensive player than Harden yes


If George plays like he has to start this season for the rest of the year, I agree with that.


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Quite funny you went with last years numbers. George and Harden are both carrying about the same offensive load this season.


LoL

Harden was practically a PG and every Rockets possession went through his hands. The Rockets ran hard. They led the league in PACE and Harden averaged 29% leading the team while pouding the ball to earth. 

Paul George played on a team that was much slower, 25th in PACE. And his ball usage was 23.5% as a SF.

Paul George has an increased role this season but the team pace still is significantly slower. This arouses a mind boggling question. Whose role do you think will take more leg out of you?


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

James Harden is a disgrace to basketball on the defensive end:

http://thegoodpoint.com/james-harden-defense/

What kind of myth are you spouting to say that he was once a good defensive player? He was never a good defensive player. Ever.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

Adam gets it ^^^


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

zanshadow said:


> LoL
> 
> Harden was practically a PG and every Rockets possession went through his hands. The Rockets ran hard. They led the league in PACE and Harden averaged 29% leading the team while pouding the ball to earth.
> 
> ...


Is that why Harden destroyed the league in turnovers last year and is on pace to do so again?

He's tired from turning the ball over all the time so he isn't expected to play defense? George is tired from rebounding, and playing man up D the whole game. Give me a ****ing break.

Let's give little James some more excuses.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

R-Star said:


> Instead of answering my question with a question, actually answer it please.


I answered it. They are not on equal grounds as first options. Harden carries a much bigger burden. Harden was the Rockets leading scorer by 10+ppg last season (Parsons averaged 15ppg). George was barely the Pacers leading scorer last year (West averaged 17ppg). When Harden was a 3rd option and averaged 17ppg, he was a good defender. Harden is also their primary ball handler and responsible for creating for others. 

George is clearly a better defender than Harden regardless of circumstance, but that doesn't equate to Harden being a terrible defender. Harden plays the type of defense Wade used to play when he was #1, which is good when motivated, but otherwise they try to rest him on defense.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I answered it. They are not on equal grounds as first options. Harden carries a much bigger burden. Harden was the Rockets leading scorer by 10+ppg last season (Parsons averaged 15ppg). George was barely the Pacers leading scorer last year (West averaged 17ppg). When Harden was a 3rd option and averaged 17ppg, he was a good defender. Harden is also their primary ball handler and responsible for creating for others.
> 
> George is clearly a better defender than Harden regardless of circumstance, but that doesn't equate to Harden being a terrible defender. Harden plays the type of defense Wade used to play when he was #1, which is good when motivated, but otherwise they try to rest him on defense.


Shut your mouth.  Wade was the best defender on our team when we were top 2 in the league in points per game and top 10 in defensive efficiency multiple years. Harden is the Yinka Dare of defense.

This is just like you though. You're the guy who posts about how Durant is having "one of the greatest seasons we've ever witnessed" when he's doing nothing statistically or team-wise that 10 other guys haven't equaled or bettered in the last 15 years. "It's close between Durant and LeBron."


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I answered it. They are not on equal grounds as first options. Harden carries a much bigger burden. Harden was the Rockets leading scorer by 10+ppg last season (Parsons averaged 15ppg). George was barely the Pacers leading scorer last year (West averaged 17ppg). When Harden was a 3rd option and averaged 17ppg, he was a good defender. Harden is also their primary ball handler and responsible for creating for others.
> 
> George is clearly a better defender than Harden regardless of circumstance, but that doesn't equate to Harden being a terrible defender. Harden plays the type of defense Wade used to play when he was #1, which is good when motivated, but otherwise they try to rest him on defense.


James Harden is equal defensively to a prime Wade?

:laugh:


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

The notion that Paul George is better or equal to Harden on offense is crazy. But Paul George is a top 10 defender in the league. You only need to look at LeBron who is arguably the best defensive player in the league and in my opinion undoubtedly the best non-big man defensive player in the league to know that you can do it on both ends.

But nobody is asking Harden to play D like Paul George or LeBron. Not even asking him to play D like an average player. Just SOME defense. But it's clear out there that he isn't even hustling. Not even rotating. You can't be on a next-level if you're going to constantly get beat by JJ Reddick and Steve Blake.

*Edit
I agree with R-Star on how laughable it is that Harden is playing equivalent defense to Wade in his prime. Wtf?


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Is that why Harden destroyed the league in turnovers last year and is on pace to do so again?
> 
> He's tired from turning the ball over all the time so he isn't expected to play defense? George is tired from rebounding, and playing man up D the whole game. Give me a ****ing break.
> 
> Let's give little James some more excuses.


Based on productivity per possession on such a faced paced team, his TO is somewhat excusable. In perspective Kobe averaged only 0.1 TO less than Harden and did less.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

zanshadow said:


> Based on productivity per possession on such a faced paced team, his TO is somewhat excusable. In perspective Kobe averaged only 0.1 TO less than Harden and did less.


Him leading the league in turnovers is excusable.

Him not playing defense is excusable.

Is there any weakness to his game that is his fault? Or can we just blame everything on his team?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Where did Sir Patchwork go?


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## zanshadow (Jun 26, 2013)

Of course, everything's not inexcusable, except for winning. The team thrived on offense and won games with it and Harden was the biggest factor in offense for the Rockets last season. You're blaming one guy for entire defensive lapse on a team that only thrived on offense. Why not Lin? Why not Motiejunas, heck why not Parsons?



Adam said:


> Wade was the best defender on our team when we were top 2 in the league in points per game and top 10 in defensive efficiency multiple years. Harden is the Yinka Dare of defense.


Wade in prime was a better defender than Kobe. At least Wade did try and played hard on defensive end. It's hilarious though how many all-defensive team Kobe has, it's almost depressing. The league couldn't award him with MVP because he just wasn't good enough so instead they fed him with all defense every year, so media and we all could keep on buying into his hype. Why else would anyone compare him to MJ constantly and buy his jersey.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Adam said:


> Shut your mouth. Wade was the best defender on our team when we were top 2 in the league in points per game and top 10 in defensive efficiency multiple years. Harden is the Yinka Dare of defense.
> 
> This is just like you though. You're the guy who posts about how Durant is having "one of the greatest seasons we've ever witnessed" when he's doing nothing statistically or team-wise that 10 other guys haven't equaled or bettered in the last 15 years. "It's close between Durant and LeBron."


This again? Don't be so insecure. You've brought this up like three times in separate threads. R-Star calls me the biggest LeBron homer on this site and you're over getting all bunched up about how I said Durant had a historic season last season even though LeBron is still clearly better (here is the thread for reference). Seriously, let it go. You're going to turn into Jamel bringing up shit I said over a decade ago.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

R-Star said:


> Where did Sir Patchwork go?


Right here. I'm writing up my rebuttal for your laughy face response right now. Stay tuned.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

I don't only blame Harden. No one is trying to tell me Lin is a good defender though.

The Rockets as a whole is a mix of some of the worst defenders I've seen play together.

James Harden is not now, nor ever was a good defender.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> This again? Don't be so insecure. You've brought this up like three times in separate threads. R-Star calls me the biggest LeBron homer on this site and you're over getting all bunched up about how I said Durant had a historic season last season even though LeBron is still clearly better (here is the thread for reference). Seriously, let it go. You're going to turn into Jamel bringing up shit I said over a decade ago.


So..... you completely glossed over the whole Harden as good a defender as Wade part of his post?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Right here. I'm writing up my rebuttal for your laughy face response right now. Stay tuned.


Clairvoyant R-Star says It's going to be shitty.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> This again? Don't be so insecure. You've brought this up like three times in separate threads. R-Star calls me the biggest LeBron homer on this site and you're over getting all bunched up about how I said Durant had a historic season last season even though LeBron is still clearly better (here is the thread for reference). Seriously, let it go. You're going to turn into Jamel bringing up shit I said over a decade ago.


The man who in another thread brought up peoples opinions of Chris Paul in 2007 ladies and gentlemen. 


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> The man who in another thread brought up peoples opinions of Chris Paul in 2007 ladies and gentlemen.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Who's opinion did I bring up?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Who's opinion did I bring up?


Hold on, where's the reply to my post you promised?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

R-Star said:


> Hold on, where's the reply to my post you promised?


It's coming, wait for it.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

**** this shit. I have 7% left on my iPad and Dracula is almost on.

There never was a reply, because you have such a dick face opinion and it was blown out of the water.

"James Hardens defense is equal to a prime Wade, but he gets lit up by the likes of Steve Blake and that's ok, but He tries hard on offense."

Good luck defending that opinion.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

I don't understand people here. Nobody is saying Harden isn't CAPABLE of being at least an average defender. Most people will tell you that (like rebounding) defense is a lot about effort. If he isn't putting in any effort he is going to continue to suck at defense. 

Do you think Brook Lopez is physically incapable of rebounding the ball? Do you think he has some physical limitations? Are we not allowed to say that Brook Lopez sucks at rebounding? Do we have to say that Lopez puts so much effort into his offensive game that he lacks the energy required to rebound? Are we not allowed to deduct a ton of points from Lopez for being one of the worst rebounding big men in the league because he CAN be a good rebounder but he just doesn't want to because he's so focused on getting points for his offensively anemic team?

There are very few players in the NBA that are incapable of being average about just about anything. Mentality and will is what makes up the rest.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)




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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

R-Star said:


> **** this shit. I have 7% left on my iPad and Dracula is almost on.
> 
> There never was a reply, because you have such a dick face opinion and it was blown out of the water.
> 
> ...


Your response was a laughy face. I indeed have no response to that, so there is your victory. Enjoy your Dracula.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Hibachi! said:


> I don't understand people here. Nobody is saying Harden isn't CAPABLE of being at least an average defender. Most people will tell you that (like rebounding) defense is a lot about effort. If he isn't putting in any effort he is going to continue to suck at defense.
> 
> Do you think Brook Lopez is physically incapable of rebounding the ball? Do you think he has some physical limitations? Are we not allowed to say that Brook Lopez sucks at rebounding? Do we have to say that Lopez puts so much effort into his offensive game that he lacks the energy required to rebound? Are we not allowed to deduct a ton of points from Lopez for being one of the worst rebounding big men in the league because he CAN be a good rebounder but he just doesn't want to because he's so focused on getting points for his offensively anemic team?
> 
> There are very few players in the NBA that are incapable of being average about just about anything. Mentality and will is what makes up the rest.


Your conflating physical capability with situational capability. Lopez is physically capable of rebounding, but as of right now and the player he is right now, he is not a good rebounder. He hasn't shown reason to believe he'd be a good rebounder in any situation. My contention with Harden is that he is an average to above average defender right now constrained by circumstance. If you put him back on the court with the Thunder, with Westbrook, Durant, and a coach that preaches defense, he would be a fine defender. Obviously people disagree that he was competent on defense with the Thunder, and that's where the disconnect is.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Your conflating physical capability with situational capability. Lopez is physically capable of rebounding, but as of right now and the player he is right now, he is not a good rebounder. He hasn't shown reason to believe he'd be a good rebounder in any situation. My contention with Harden is that he is an average to above average defender right now constrained by circumstance. If you put him back on the court with the Thunder, with Westbrook, Durant, and a coach that preaches defense, he would be a fine defender. Obviously people disagree that he was competent on defense with the Thunder, and that's where the disconnect is.


A fair point.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Who's opinion did I bring up?


Peoples?


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