# Sources : Steve Nash to be named MVP



## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Source: Nash to be MVP Suns guard would be 10th player to win award in consecutive seasons


*Paul Coro *
The Arizona Republic 
Apr. 26, 2006 12:00 AM



> Suns star Steve Nash will be named the NBA's Most Valuable Player for a second straight season, according to a league source familiar with the voting.
> USA TODAY was unable to confirm the report.
> 
> The announcement may not come for two weeks, like last season's May 8 ceremony. The votes have been tabulated in what was expected to be a close race with LeBron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Chauncey Billups and Kobe Bryant.
> ...


http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/sports/articles/0426nash0426.html


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Steve Nash a consecutive MVP: the award has become a joke.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Pioneer10 said:


> Steve Nash a consecutive MVP: the award has become a joke.


It doesnt have the meaning it did in the 80's and 90's, but you cant be mad at the voters for giving it to Nash again. 18.8 and 10.5 is amazing considering he didnt have his best player and was playing with *10* new players. He still led his team team to the 4th best record in the NBA and another divison title.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

TucsonClip said:


> It doesnt have the meaning it did in the 80's and 90's, but you cant be mad at the voters for giving it to Nash again. 18.8 and 10.5 is amazing considering he didnt have his best player and was playing with *10* new players. He still led his team team to the 4th best record in the NBA and another divison title.


 Yawn: his numbers pale in comparison to the other players. The freakin team he left has done better w/o him. How valuable is Dirk if Dallas has done better w/o Nash?

If he's so valuable how come the other top candidates have better +/- numbers. The other candidates also play WAY MORE minutes then Nash. 

Nash winning consecutive MVP's is a joke


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

1. Stats were better then last season
2. He Lost 2 starting players in the Off Season
3. He Lost his post up presence man in Amare
4. The West Coast is alot harder the the Eastern Confernce
5. He managed 50+ wins
6. He generates the chemistry in that offense
7. 5 of his teammates are scoring in double Digits, two others with 9.5.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Pioneer10 said:


> Yawn: his numbers pale in comparison to the other players. The freakin team he left has done better w/o him. How valuable is Dirk if Dallas has done better w/o Nash?
> 
> If he's so valuable how come the other top candidates have better +/- numbers. The other candidates also play WAY MORE minutes then Nash.
> 
> Nash winning consecutive MVP's is a joke


Comon now thats just stupid. How valuable is Nash to the Suns? If you are trying to say he isnt as valuable to the Suns as LeBron to the cavs or Dirk to the mavs you are crazy.

First of all Nash is a legit PG, not a SF playing PG, I dont see any other players in the NBA putting up 10.5 assists per game.

Minutes played are not going to play a huge factor in a MVP race, that is just stupid as well.


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## Morongk22 (Jan 11, 2006)

TucsonClip said:


> Comon now thats just stupid. How valuable is Nash to the Suns? If you are trying to say he isnt as valuable to the Suns as LeBron to the cavs or Dirk to the mavs you are crazy.
> 
> First of all Nash is a legit PG, not a SF playing PG, I dont see any other players in the NBA putting up 10.5 assists per game.
> 
> Minutes played are not going to play a huge factor in a MVP race, that is just stupid as well.


Do you think that if the Suns put a mid-tier PG in Nash's place that they wouldnt be in the same spot they are?

I do,Nash is a product of a system i bellieve the same way Billups is in Detroit, New England PAtriot players and Denver RBs are the same way. Nash is a good player who deserved the award last year, but know the voters have commited themselves to this guys. What happens if next year he goes for 20 and 16 and the Suns win 55-60 games, doesn't he "deserve" the award again?


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Nash now has more MVP's than guys like Olajuwon and Shaq. Something is wrong with that.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

TucsonClip said:


> Comon now thats just stupid. How valuable is Nash to the Suns? If you are trying to say he isnt as valuable to the Suns as LeBron to the cavs or Dirk to the mavs you are crazy.
> 
> First of all Nash is a legit PG, not a SF playing PG, I dont see any other players in the NBA putting up 10.5 assists per game.
> 
> Minutes played are not going to play a huge factor in a MVP race, that is just stupid as well.


Nash winning the MVP is a joke:
How do you determine when comparing the best of the best? You have several ways and Nash simply doesn't compare when you look into the fact that his 18/10 comes in a Phoenix offense which plays tons more possesions then any other team in the league. Also if you don't like stats w/o his amazing impact how come Dallas has done better w/o him. In fact his +/- is NOT that good and this where minutes is important as well. The Suns do NOT collapse w/o Nash on the floor and so that is why he plays far fewer minutes then any of the other top candidates. 

The injury excuse is a joke as Dallas and Cleveland have been plagued with injuries as well.

Let's look and compare shall we:
<table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#cccccc"> <td colspan="3" bgcolor="#0000ff"><center>*Production*</center></td> <td colspan="3" bgcolor="#ff0000"><center>*On Court/Off Court*</center></td> <td bgcolor="#ffcc00"><center>*Roland*</center></td> <td bgcolor="#000000"><center>*Fair Salary*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#33cc33"> <td><center>*Player*</center></td> <td><center>*Min*</center></td> <td><center>*Own*</center></td> <td><center>*Opp*</center></td> <td><center>*Net*</center></td> <td><center>*On*</center></td> <td><center>*Off*</center></td> <td><center>*Net*</center></td> <td bgcolor="#ffcc00"><center>*Rating*</center></td> <td bgcolor="#000000"><center>*($Million)*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Bryant</td> <td><center>83%</center></td> <td align="right"> 30.0 </td> <td align="right"> 14.1 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#efefef"> +15.9 </td> <td align="right"> +4.8 </td> <td align="right"> -7.9 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#efefef"> +12.7 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#cccccc"> +14.8 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#99ff99">$ 27.39 </td></tr></tbody></table><table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td align="left"> James</td> <td><center>85%</center></td> <td align="right"> 30.2 </td> <td align="right"> 12.6 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#efefef"> +17.6 </td> <td align="right"> +3.9 </td> <td align="right"> -7.2 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#efefef"> +11.0 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#cccccc"> +15.3 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#99ff99">$ 28.76 </td></tr></tbody></table><table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td align="left"> Nowitzki</td> <td><center>78%</center></td> <td align="right"> 30.1 </td> <td align="right"> 17.0 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#efefef"> +13.1 </td> <td align="right"> +7.9 </td> <td align="right"> -0.6 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#efefef"> +8.5 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#cccccc"> +11.6 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#99ff99">$ 21.58 </td></tr></tbody></table><table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td align="left"> Nash</td> <td><center>70%</center></td> <td align="right"> 24.6 </td> <td align="right"> 15.3 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#efefef"> +9.3 </td> <td align="right"> +8.1 </td> <td align="right"> -0.7 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#efefef"> +8.8 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#cccccc"> +9.1 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#99ff99">$ 16.45 </td></tr></tbody></table><table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td align="left"> Wade</td> <td><center>73%</center></td> <td align="right"> 29.8 </td> <td align="right"> 14.6 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#efefef"> +15.2 </td> <td align="right"> +8.1 </td> <td align="right"> -7.7 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#efefef"> +15.8 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#cccccc"> +15.4 </td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#99ff99">$ 24.82 </td></tr></tbody></table>
Oh and when was the last time the MVP (i.e. the best player in the league) gets DOMINATED not just outplayed BUT dominated by the other players at this postion:

Vs. Kidd
<table class="pTitle" style="border-collapse: collapse;" border="1" bordercolor="#d2dbe7" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tbody><tr align="center" bgcolor="#d2dbe7" height="12"><td colspan="3"> </td><td colspan="3" align="center">Field Goals</td><td colspan="3" align="center">Rebounds</td><td colspan="6"> </td></tr> <tr align="center" bgcolor="#d2dbe7" height="12" valign="middle"><td> </td><td>pos</td><td>min</td><td>fgm-a</td><td>3pm-a</td><td>ftm-a</td><td>off</td><td>def</td><td>tot</td><td>ast</td><td>pf</td><td>st</td><td>to</td><td>bs</td><td>pts</td></tr> <tr class="playerStats" height="17" valign="middle"> <td class="playerName" align="left"> S.Nash  </td> <td>G</td> <td>26:03 </td> <td>0-5</td> <td>0-1</td> <td>0-0</td> <td>0</td> <td>3</td> <td>3</td> <td>5</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td></tr></tbody></table>
Vs. Billlups
<table class="pTitle" style="border-collapse: collapse;" border="1" bordercolor="#d2dbe7" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tbody><tr align="center" bgcolor="#d2dbe7" height="12" valign="middle"><td> </td><td>pos</td><td>min</td><td>fgm-a</td><td>3pm-a</td><td>ftm-a</td><td>off</td><td>def</td><td>tot</td><td>ast</td><td>pf</td><td>st</td><td>to</td><td>bs</td><td>pts</td></tr> <tr class="playerStats" height="17" valign="middle"> <td class="playerName" align="left"> S.Nash   </td> <td>G</td> <td>35:32 </td> <td>4-11</td> <td>1-5</td> <td>4-4</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>2</td> <td>9</td> <td>1</td> <td>0</td> <td>2</td> <td>0</td> <td>13</td></tr></tbody></table><table class="pTitle" style="border-collapse: collapse;" border="1" bordercolor="#d2dbe7" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tbody><tr class="playerStats" height="17" valign="middle"><td class="playerName" align="left">C.Billups  </td> <td>G</td> <td>40:00 </td> <td>12-23</td> <td>5-7</td> <td>6-6</td> <td>2</td> <td>2</td> <td>4</td> <td>5</td> <td>3</td> <td>0</td> <td>3</td> <td>0</td> <td>35</td></tr></tbody></table>
Not to mention he was outplayed by other notable such as PG's Shaun Livington, Charlie Bell, etc: his defense is TERRIBLE.

In the end you'd be crazy to pick Nash ahead of guys like Lebron and Kobe, so him winning the award when others are having HOF type season is a joke


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Morongk22 said:


> Do you think that if the Suns put a mid-tier PG in Nash's place that they wouldnt be in the same spot they are?
> 
> I do,Nash is a product of a system i bellieve the same way Billups is in Detroit, New England PAtriot players and Denver RBs are the same way. Nash is a good player who deserved the award last year, but know the voters have commited themselves to this guys. What happens if next year he goes for 20 and 16 and the Suns win 55-60 games, doesn't he deserve the award again?



Are you serious? Look at the Suns roster and tell me how Earl Watson, Hinrich, Ridnour, Brevin Knight, would be able to lead the Suns to 54 wins.

If nash was a product of the system, why cant Leandro Barbosa put up even 6 assist per game, why did Nash put up 17 and 8 in Dallas? How is Billups a product of the system, when Detriot wasnt even a good offensive team until Rasheed came to town.

To answer your question, yes he does deserve the award if he puts up 20 and 16 and winds 55+. He beat out LeBron and Kobe (who is putting up 35 ppg in a season for the 1st time since Jordan).


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

No surprises...

It's probably:

-Nash
-Lebron
-Dirk
-Kobe
-Chauncey

I think this was a close one...real close one...


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## Morongk22 (Jan 11, 2006)

TucsonClip said:


> Are you serious? Look at the Suns roster and tell me how Earl Watson, Hinrich, Ridnour, Brevin Knight, would be able to lead the Suns to 54 wins.


Hinrich---15/6
Knight---12/8
Ridnour----11/7

Yes I think there assist numbers go up 1-2 more per game, Suns still win 50ish games still get the 3 seed, still beat the Lakers in the first round.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Pioneer10 said:


> Nash winning the MVP is a joke:
> How do you determine when comparing the best of the best? You have several ways and Nash simply doesn't compare when you look into the fact that his 18/10 comes in a Phoenix offense which plays tons more possesions then any other team in the league.


So its his fault he is putting up 10.5 assists per game on the 4th best team in the NBA, because The Suns have more opportunities to score then other teams? I do not get all the hate on Nash for winning this award. Yeah other guys have better all-around numbers. But, none of them are leading the NBA in assists, playing with 10 new players, playing the enitre season without the star of the team, and still winning 54 games in the west.



> Also if you don't like stats w/o his amazing impact how come Dallas has done better w/o him. In fact his +/- is NOT that good and this where minutes is important as well. The Suns do NOT collapse w/o Nash on the floor and so that is why he plays far fewer minutes then any of the other top candidates.


Dallas is doing slightly better, because they have more talent now, not to mention defense. Josh Howard and Daniels are playing great ball and much better then they played when nash was there. Dirk is still Dirk. Jason Terry is no slouch at PG, he is pretty good and provide them with passing, outside shooting, and defense. Dallas plays defense now, that is why they are where they are. They can rebound and play better defense, along with having the ability to score 110 points every night.

The Suns are a different team with Nash on the bench. They still run, but they take a lot of bad shots and tons of 3s, it just so happens they have good shooters and an athletic freak in Marion to clean up the boards.




> Oh and when was the last time the MVP (i.e. the best player in the league) gets DOMINATED not just outplayed BUT dominated by the other players at this postion:


Since when is being a MVP, determined on defensive stats alone? Everyone knows he cant play defense, but who cares when you can score and create for your teammates like Nash does.




> In the end you'd be crazy to pick Nash ahead of guys like Lebron and Kobe, so him winning the award when others are having HOF type season is a joke


Look im not saying LeBron and Kobe didnt deserve the award. Im saying you cant be mad at any of the 3 winning.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Morongk22 said:


> Hinrich---15/6
> Knight---12/8
> Ridnour----11/7
> 
> Yes I think there assist numbers go up 1-2 more per game, Suns still win 50ish games still get the 3 seed, still beat the Lakers in the first round.


Im sorry but I dont see the Suns finishing with the 4th best record in the NBA behind Hinrich, Knight, Ridnour, or Watson. Hinrich is the best bet, but you have to take into account the effect Nash has on his teammates throught his leadership, poise, scoring ability, and willingness to take the big shot.

I would love to see any GM trade Steve Nash for any of those PGs and try to make the claim the team will be just as good.


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## Morongk22 (Jan 11, 2006)

TucsonClip said:


> Im sorry but I dont see the Suns finishing with the 4th best record in the NBA behind Hinrich, Knight, Ridnour, or Watson. Hinrich is the best bet, but you have to take into account the effect Nash has on his teammates throught his leadership, poise, scoring ability, and willingness to take the big shot.
> 
> I would love to see any GM trade Steve Nash for any of those PGs and try to make the claim the team will be just as good.


They wouldn't have to be just as good to get the 2 seed. They have about 7 games on the Clippers, all they had to do was win 48-50 and they're the 2 seed. When you score 108 ppg your gonna have lots of assists. Withought Nash's ppg the Suns still score 90, so throw back in one of those other PG's, they would get 12-16 ppg and get an increase of 1-2 assists per game.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Morongk22 said:


> They wouldn't have to be just as good to get the 2 seed. They have about 7 games on the Clippers, all they had to do was win 48-50 and they're the 2 seed. When you score 108 ppg your gonna have lots of assists. Withought Nash's ppg the Suns still score 90, so throw back in one of those other PG's, they would get 12-16 ppg and get an increase of 1-2 assists per game.


So by your logic if the 97 Bulls added this years Kobe, him and Jordan would combine for like 70 per game.

It doesnt always work that way. 

Also next year the playoff rules change. But still if you think the Suns would be the #2 team in the west without Nash, I dont know what to say, im stunned. The Spurs, Mavs, and possibly even the Clippers would be better. Thats just off the fact of replacing Nash with one of those 4 PGs. If they actually played the season without Nash and Amare, the Suns would be the 5th or 6th seed.


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## Morongk22 (Jan 11, 2006)

TucsonClip said:


> But still if you think the Suns would be the #2 team in the west without Nash, I dont know what to say, im stunned. The Spurs, Mavs, and possibly even the Clippers would be better. Thats just off the fact of replacing Nash with one of those 4 PGs. If they actually played the season without Nash and Amare, the Suns would be the 5th or 6th seed.


Well if thats the arguement then how many rounds of golf would Lakers and Cavs players have played by now without Kobe and Lebron?

I think its to hard for someone to tell me that Nash is more important to his team than Kobe, Bron, and even Dirk. You would figure for someone to win MVP they should be most important to the success of their team. The suns would still score 100+ without Nash and gain better defense with another PG.


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## Larry Hughes for Retirement (Jul 5, 2004)

Ok here is my thoughts:

Nash put up great #'s with out of his players from last year leaving or were hurt. And he improves his numbers from his MVP campaign from last year.

But, I do think he is a product of the system. Not saying Barbosa would put the same #'s, but I do believe it Nash was on a different team which obviously would have a different style he wouldnt have those #'s. But that is not his fault that he is taking full advantage of the up and down stle the suns play. Its just if someone like Tony Parker were on the Suns I think he could put up similar numbers, but because he slows it down and has a player like Tim Duncan he will never be reconized as a MVP like player. 

I cant disagree with him getting it, but then again you can argue for Bron,Dirk,Kobe getting it as well. Anyone of the four getting the MVP all have good reasons to win it. Its just him winning back-to-back, well I didnt see that coming at all. This was a bit of a shock to me.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Morongk22 said:


> Well if thats the arguement then how many rounds of golf would Lakers and Cavs players have played by now without Kobe and Lebron?
> 
> I think its to hard for someone to tell me that Nash is more important to his team than Kobe, Bron, and even Dirk. You would figure for someone to win MVP they should be most important to the success of their team. The suns would still score 100+ without Nash and gain better defense with another PG.


Just look at it this way... The Suns have added 10 new players from last season. They lost 3 of the top 5 scorers (JJ, Q, Amare). Boris Diaw who was horrible in Atlanta is more then likely going to be the most improved player in the NBA. They finished 1st in the West last season and 2nd this season. In the last 5 years the only players to put up 10 assists per game are Steve Nash twice and Andre Miller.


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## adarsh1 (May 28, 2003)

Maybe the system is a product of Nash


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

adarsh1 said:


> Maybe the system is a product of Nash


Thats a pretty good idea to run with. Its a possibility, D'Antonio would still likely get out and run, but perhaps not as much, without Nash.


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

adarsh1 said:


> Maybe the system is a product of Nash


Normally i hate your washington thinking, but i like this.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

RoyWilliams said:


> Normally i hate your washington thinking, but i like this.


 Poor Dallas there system collapsed without Nash and they're not even a playoff team


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Morongk22 said:


> Hinrich---15/6
> Knight---12/8
> Ridnour----11/7
> 
> Yes I think there assist numbers go up 1-2 more per game, Suns still win 50ish games still get the 3 seed, still beat the Lakers in the first round.


Your posts fit your sceenname.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

adarsh1 said:


> Maybe the system is a product of Nash


Bingo.

Guess what the last 6 scoring leading teams in the NBA had in common? Nash was the PG of all of them.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

TucsonClip said:


> So its his fault he is putting up 10.5 assists per game on the 4th best team in the NBA, because The Suns have more opportunities to score then other teams? I do not get all the hate on Nash for winning this award.


You point outed his numbers: Simple math here - the more possesion per game the more chances you have to get rebounds, points, AND assists. That's why PER is the best measure of impact not just per game numbers



> Yeah other guys have better all-around numbers. But, none of them are leading the NBA in assists, playing with 10 new players, playing the enitre season without the star of the team, and still winning 54 games in the west.


The team record is a team accomplishment. How come this argument is only used for Nash when Lebron and Dirk have played with teams devastated by injuries as well? Somehow guys like Barbaso and Diaw are made by Nash? The team argument is simply weak




> Jason Terry is no slouch at PG, he is pretty good and provide them with passing, outside shooting, and defense.


Jason Terry is just a notch below an MVP calibre player then: news to me

[quoteThe Suns are a different team with Nash on the bench. They still run, but they take a lot of bad shots and tons of 3s, it just so happens they have good shooters and an athletic freak in Marion to clean up the boards.[/quote]

Hmm, so Phoenix does have a pretty good team outside of Nash then? I thought the argument for Nash since he doens't put up nearly the numbers as other better player was that he makes Phoenix and no else does.



> Since when is being a MVP, determined on defensive stats alone? Everyone knows he cant play defense, but who cares when you can score and create for your teammates like Nash does.


Umm I think an MVP should not get dominated by the other top players in his position and Nash's piss poor defense has let other PG's dominate him. Not outplay you mind you: dominate him.

Interesting how this is also a tacit description of how the phoenix system benefits Nash unlike any other team.



> Look im not saying LeBron and Kobe didnt deserve the award. Im saying you cant be mad at any of the 3 winning.


If after this season performance , you were a GM and would pick a player to start a team NO gm in this league would pick Nash ahead of Kobe or Lebron (regardless of age and contract).


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> Poor Dallas there system collapsed without Nash and they're not even a playoff team


Well you point out anywhere i talked about Dallas. All i stated was i liked what Adarsh said and the post earlier on Nash. Although the Suns are 0-3 with him out.


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## quench23 (Mar 26, 2006)

TucsonClip said:


> Since when is being a MVP, determined on defensive stats alone? Everyone knows he cant play defense, but who cares when you can score and create for your teammates like Nash does.



by that statment you just said there is no better player in the league then lebron james,

/golfclap


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

RoyWilliams said:


> Well you point out anywhere i talked about Dallas. All i stated was i liked what Adarsh said and the post earlier on Nash. Although the Suns are 0-3 with him out.


 I'm just curious how a 32 yo old Steve Nash suddenly developed new skills and athleticism that he could make Phoenix system. Considering that he played in Dallas for the majority of his career including a player's typical prime he wasn't able to create a system. Dallas has done remarkably well after losing an MVP calibre player for NOTHING

Yet on the other hand look what the Phoenix system and organization has done for players: Joe Johnson became a star (note: he had his breakout the year before Nash arrived), Diaw became a star in Phoenix, Marbury had his best year in Phoenix. Hmm which looks like the better correlation?


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

quench23 said:


> by that statment you just said there is no better player in the league then lebron james,
> 
> /golfclap


No, I said since when is the MVP based on defensive stats alone, not since when is the best player. Winning the MVP doesnt make you the best player in the NBA. There is no doubt in my mind LeBron, Dirk, Kobe, and Wade, are better players then Nash.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Pioneer10 said:


> You point outed his numbers: Simple math here - the more possesion per game the more chances you have to get rebounds, points, AND assists. That's why PER is the best measure of impact not just per game numbers


Ok, well you try and convince everyone in the NBA and those who voted that Nash is only putting up these numbers because of more possessions. You just told me that he plays less minutes then every one of the MVP candidates, so its not like he is in for all these extra possessions. Not to mention his teammates still need to make shots. The key word shots, because about half of his assists come on 3 pointers alone.



> The team record is a team accomplishment. How come this argument is only used for Nash when Lebron and Dirk have played with teams devastated by injuries as well? Somehow guys like Barbaso and Diaw are made by Nash? The team argument is simply weak


Yeah Dirk and LeBron had injury issues on their team, but Nash is playing with 10 new players and the injury to Amare was more devistating then any injury to the Cavs or Mavs. I fail to see why the team argument is weak. If Kobe leads the Lakers to the #2 seed and 54 wins while scoring 35 I am positive he wins MVP.



> Jason Terry is just a notch below an MVP calibre player then: news to me


I dont ever recall saying anything of the sort. Terry is a solid PG who fits in perfectly with Dallas' offense and defense.



> Umm I think an MVP should not get dominated by the other top players in his position and Nash's piss poor defense has let other PG's dominate him. Not outplay you mind you: dominate him.


Like I said defensive stats dont win you MVPs, they help but they do not win you MVPs and being outplayed by other PGs is the same thing. We will tally the 1st place votes and I gurantee if you ask anyone who voted him 1st or second, even third cares how poorly Nash defends people like you do.



> If after this season performance , you were a GM and would pick a player to start a team NO gm in this league would pick Nash ahead of Kobe or Lebron (regardless of age and contract).


Really? No kidding, I dont know where you guys get the idea that Nash winning the MVP makes him the best player in the NBA. Not to mention I never said anywhere I would take Nash over any of the MVP candidates, in fact I said I would take all of them over Nash.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

TucsonClip said:


> No, I said since when is the MVP based on defensive stats alone, not since when is the best player. Winning the MVP doesnt make you the best player in the NBA. There is no doubt in my mind LeBron, Dirk, Kobe, and Wade, are better players then Nash.


I agree...Nash or Kobe is the MVP, followed by Mr. James.

Nash has been the leader of the show for the past 6 top scoring teams....that's no coincidence that he should be the MVP.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

TucsonClip said:


> Ok, well you try and convince everyone in the NBA and those who voted that Nash is only putting up these numbers because of more possessions. You just told me that he plays less minutes then every one of the MVP candidates, so its not like he is in for all these extra possessions. Not to mention his teammates still need to make shots. The key word shots, because about half of his assists come on 3 pointers alone.


You would think that his less minutes would make his per possesions numbers but they don't: that's how fast a game Phoenix game plays versus other teams




> Yeah Dirk and LeBron had injury issues on their team, but Nash is playing with 10 new players and the injury to Amare was more devistating then any injury to the Cavs or Mavs. I fail to see why the team argument is weak. If Kobe leads the Lakers to the #2 seed and 54 wins while scoring 35 I am positive he wins MVP.


Marion, Diaw, Barbaso, and Kurt Thomas wouldn't all be starters on the Lakers: news to me. Wins are measure of team performance and not just an individual. Like I stated previously: many players pre and post Nash have done well in Phoenix. Dallas has just done fine w/o Nash. This team argument which is weak is also very important for Nash because his number including measures of impact (net +/-) don't favor Nash at all (Wade, Kobe, Lebron, and Dirk ALL are ahead of him)




> I dont ever recall saying anything of the sort. Terry is a solid PG who fits in perfectly with Dallas' offense and defense.


Amazing what a system can do for a player isn't it? And you missed the sarcasm that an above average (i.e. just not quite All-Star) playercan fill easily a CONSECUTIVE MVP shoes to the point that the team actually does better.





> Like I said defensive stats dont win you MVPs, they help but they do not win you MVPs and being outplayed by other PGs is the same thing. We will tally the 1st place votes and I gurantee if you ask anyone who voted him 1st or second, even third cares how poorly Nash defends people like you do.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? No kidding, I dont know where you guys get the idea that Nash winning the MVP makes him the best player in the NBA. Not to mention I never said anywhere I would take Nash over any of the MVP candidates, in fact I said I would take all of them over Nash.


Again read what you're saying the NBA's Most Valuable Player wouldn't even be picked by a handful of GM ahead of not just one but MULTIPLE players. The defense is particularly important because Nash has been dominated by other PG's this season. Nash is the MVP when he routinely gets outplayed by the other best players at his position?

So lets list em off:
1) He gets dominated by other top PG's in the league
2) His overall and per possesion stats don't compare to the big 4 (Wade, Lebron, Kobe, or Dirk)
3) Marion, Diaw, Barbaso, Thomas each would start on the Cavs or Lakers. Yet Nash get more credit then Lebron or Kobe who have also lead there teams to the playoffs
4) His +/- indicating team impact is again lower then the Big 4


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## Morongk22 (Jan 11, 2006)

Originally Posted by Morongk22 
Hinrich---15/6
Knight---12/8
Ridnour----11/7

Yes I think there assist numbers go up 1-2 more per game, Suns still win 50ish games still get the 2 seed, still beat the Lakers in the first round. 



Amareca said:


> Your posts fit your sceenname.


The average NBA team gets 20-25 assists per game and a decent pg gets 5-7 apg. Pheonix is arguably the 4th/5th best team in the league if you take someone else like Hinrich or B Knight and put them on a team that shoots that well their stats would go be higher. 

Which goes back to what i said earlier, and made you think i was a "moron".
Nash had 10 of 26 assists per game for Pheonix
Suns shot----48%/40%(3pt)----7,202 shots
Hinrich had 6 of 22 per game for Chicago
Bulls shot---45%/38%(3pt)---6,738 shots
B. Knight had 8 of 20 per game for Charlotte
Bobcats shot---43%/34%(3pt)---6,812 shots
Ridnour had 7 of 20 per game for Seattle
Sonics shot---46%/37%(3pt)---6,638 shots

If a team averages 87 shots per game someone is getting those assists.


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

Morongk22 said:


> Originally Posted by Morongk22
> Hinrich---15/6
> Knight---12/8
> Ridnour----11/7
> ...


Did i ever tell you i hate you. And that i will beat your *** the next time you beat me in Texas Horseshoes.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Pioneer10 said:


> Marion, Diaw, Barbaso, and Kurt Thomas wouldn't all be starters on the Lakers: news to me. Wins are measure of team performance and not just an individual. Like I stated previously: many players pre and post Nash have done well in Phoenix. Dallas has just done fine w/o Nash. This team argument which is weak is also very important for Nash because his number including measures of impact (net +/-) don't favor Nash at all (Wade, Kobe, Lebron, and Dirk ALL are ahead of him)


Well I guess this all comes down to your definition of MVP. The way it sounds to me is that your MVP should be the best overall player in the NBA, which Nash is not. My MVP is the one who is the most important to their team, puts up very good stats, and leads his team to wins. Kobe didnt win enough, LeBron did win enough, Dirk didnt get the hype he deserved, and Wade will always be shadowed by Shaq (which is completely assanine). I am 100% positive that if the Cavs had the Suns record, LeBron would be MVP and the same goes for Kobe. I do not see how you can say team accomplishments do not matter, because they do.




> Amazing what a system can do for a player isn't it? And you missed the sarcasm that an above average (i.e. just not quite All-Star) playercan fill easily a CONSECUTIVE MVP shoes to the point that the team actually does better.


You missed my statement that Dallas has MORE talent now then they did when Nash was in Dallas.



> Again read what you're saying the NBA's Most Valuable Player wouldn't even be picked by a handful of GM ahead of not just one but MULTIPLE players.


Like I said you think the MVP is the best player in the NBA. Newsflash, the MVP is not always the best player in the NBA and he wasnt last year either.



> Nash is the MVP when he routinely gets outplayed by the other best players at his position?


Maybe we should conduct a poll in the NBA general board about wether or not Nash deserves MVP consideration, because he cant play defense. I gurantee you nobody cares that he cant defend and the voters who voted for him this year and last year prove my statement.



> 1) He gets dominated by other top PG's in the league


The Wizards like to run that weave in order to get LeBron one on one at the top of the key against a guard, then they take him to the rack. So does that make LeBron even the slightest bit less worthy of MVP consideration, because teams know to attack him on defense or to put him on the foul line late in the game? Of course not.




> 2) His overall and per possesion stats don't compare to the big 4 (Wade, Lebron, Kobe, or Dirk)


With those 4 its pick your poison, because they can do it all. With Steve Nash its, hey look at the guys who have averaged 10+ assists per game for a season, Steve Nash is on the list twice. But I guess that isnt good enough, because he is a PG and doesnt pull down 8 boards per game and isnt a good defender, and is a product of the system. However, he sure as hell can lead his team with 10 new players on the roster to 2nd in the west and 54 wins, without his best player.



> 3) Marion, Diaw, Barbaso, Thomas each would start on the Cavs or Lakers. Yet Nash get more credit then Lebron or Kobe who have also lead there teams to the playoffs


He gets more credit, because he is dishing out 10.5 assists per game and leading his team to 54 wins. Yeah im sure they could start on those teams, but they still won more games and he shouldnt be penalized for players on his team developing into how they should be playing. Diaw couldnt even start on the Hawks half the time last season.



> 4) His +/- indicating team impact is again lower then the Big 4


Fine thats great, I said I wouldnt have a problem with Kobe, LeBron, or Nash winning MVP. However, people who say Nash does not deserve the award are just upset that thier favorite player didnt win. Like it or not, you are bitter about Nash winning it over LeBron and im sure you will say you are bitter abot him winning over Kobe, Wade, and Dirk as well.

I thought Kobe would win it, and LeBron would come in 3rd. If anyone deserves the award more then Nash it is Kobe, but you arent going to hear him complain about Nash winning, because he knows how good Nash is and how hard it is to win games without your best player.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Morongk22 said:


> Originally Posted by Morongk22
> Hinrich---15/6
> Knight---12/8
> Ridnour----11/7
> ...


im not even going to comment much on this, because you know how I feel since you were typing this directly behind me in our room. As I said earlier, those number are like saying Kobe and Jordan could team up and almost singlehandedly beat teams by combining for 70 a game.

In your scenario, Barbosa would play more time at PG, because none of the players mentioned are anywhere near Steve Nash. You also have to take into account that in order to stop the Suns offense in this scenario a team would focus on defending the PG, becuase in thier offense the PG is the most important position and creates for everyone on the floor.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

TucsonClip said:


> Well I guess this all comes down to your definition of MVP. The way it sounds to me is that your MVP should be the best overall player in the NBA, which Nash is not. My MVP is the one who is the most important to their team, puts up very good stats, and leads his team to wins. Kobe didnt win enough, LeBron did win enough, Dirk didnt get the hype he deserved, and Wade will always be shadowed by Shaq (which is completely assanine). I am 100% positive that if the Cavs had the Suns record, LeBron would be MVP and the same goes for Kobe. I do not see how you can say team accomplishments do not matter, because they do.


You don't see the logical inconsistencies of you're argument? Kobe and Lebron are more valuable to there team then Nash is too the Suns and even Dirk is more important to Dallas (the +/- and stats all points to this plus MINUTES played). 

Then you bring team record into blithfully disregard Dirk's reason for not winning as a matter of hype? Dirk put up better numbers on a better team but the reason he didn't win it because of hype: that's a joke right there. In terms of team record you continue to not mention how Marion, Diaw, Barbaso, and Thomas would all be starters on the Cavs and Lakers - team record is a team accomplishment. Nash plays less minutes and has a worse +/- then either Kobe, Lebron, or Dirk so his responsibility for that team record are less then those 3





> You missed my statement that Dallas has MORE talent now then they did when Nash was in Dallas.


And you continue to ignore the fact that just because of Amare is hurt and they've had turnover that Phoenix is still a darn talented team (well at least Thomas got hurt - and there record has sucked since but no one mentions this because it takes away from the Nash makes the Suns argument)



> Like I said you think the MVP is the best player in the NBA. Newsflash, the MVP is not always the best player in the NBA and he wasnt last year either.


Newsflash Nash is a maybe barely a top 5 player in the league and he's just won two consectutive MVP's; you don't think that should be a consideration




> Maybe we should conduct a poll in the NBA general board about wether or not Nash deserves MVP consideration, because he cant play defense. I gurantee you nobody cares that he cant defend and the voters who voted for him this year and last year prove my statement.


Getting MVP consideration is FAR different then winning the MVP. A lot of players get MVP consideration who have no business winning the MVP




> The Wizards like to run that weave in order to get LeBron one on one at the top of the key against a guard, then they take him to the rack. So does that make LeBron even the slightest bit less worthy of MVP consideration, because teams know to attack him on defense or to put him on the foul line late in the game? Of course not.


How can you equate one play versus overall defense? Lebron is not a great defender but he has not once been dominated by another SF like Nash has been done by other PG's (He's been possibly outplayed but has not been compltely dominated). You also might want to look at for example Jamison's stat line for game 1 where Lebron was on him. The defensive PER also shows taht both Kobe and Lebron force there opponents to below average production: Nash doesn't do that. He has been routinely outplayed by even average PG's (Bell, Livingston for example)






> With those 4 its pick your poison, because they can do it all. With Steve Nash its, hey look at the guys who have averaged 10+ assists per game for a season, Steve Nash is on the list twice. But I guess that isnt good enough, because he is a PG and doesnt pull down 8 boards per game and isnt a good defender, and is a product of the system. However, he sure as hell can lead his team with 10 new players on the roster to 2nd in the west and 54 wins, without his best player.


Again you ignore the per possesion numbers and refuse to acknowledge even w/o Amare that the Suns have plenty of talent. The Suns are great at finding talent before and after Nash




> He gets more credit, because he is dishing out 10.5 assists per game and leading his team to 54 wins. Yeah im sure they could start on those teams, but they still won more games and he shouldnt be penalized for players on his team developing into how they should be playing. Diaw couldnt even start on the Hawks half the time last season.


Players don't break out every year? Just like Joe Johnson did the year before Nash arrived. He gets more credit wrongly because people think the rest of the Suns are scrubs when 4 of em would START on either the Cavs or Lakers. Better overall team = Better record. You have been unable to even point out even one stat that shows that somehow Nash impacts the Suns more then Lebron, Kobe, or Dirk



> Fine thats great, I said I wouldnt have a problem with Kobe, LeBron, or Nash winning MVP. However, people who say Nash does not deserve the award are just upset that thier favorite player didnt win. Like it or not, you are bitter about Nash winning it over LeBron and im sure you will say you are bitter abot him winning over Kobe, Wade, and Dirk as well.
> 
> I thought Kobe would win it, and LeBron would come in 3rd. If anyone deserves the award more then Nash it is Kobe, but you arent going to hear him complain about Nash winning, because he knows how good Nash is and how hard it is to win games without your best player.


I'm not bitter about Lebron losing as I have no problem with Dirk or Kobe winning for example. It's a travesty though that a player who is not even remotely close to being the best player in the league AND did not have a better season then players betterh them him won it. And the Kobe won't complain argument is a joke: if he was a poster who could post anonymously he would say he deserved MVP ahead of Nash and rightfully so.

In fact you're arguments for Nash this season should have made Ray Allen MVP last year. A team that unexecpetdly had a good year despite predictions of a bad record and got production from players like A. Daniels who didn't necessarily play to there ability. Yet Ray didn't win last year.


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## Larry Hughes for Retirement (Jul 5, 2004)

This thread is getting retarded, i dont even wanna read peoples post because they are like Novels and its getting to the end of the semester, which makes me not wanna read.


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## CHKNWANG321 (Sep 3, 2005)

LBJ to LJ for 3 said:


> This thread is getting retarded, i dont even wanna read peoples post because they are line Novels and its getting to the end of the semester, which makes me not wanna read.


 haha


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

LBJ to LJ for 3 said:


> This thread is getting retarded, i dont even wanna read peoples post because they are like Novels and its getting to the end of the semester, which makes me not wanna read.


Ill print it off and leave it on the kitchen table where you do ur "studying".


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Im going to leave it at this, because im sick of this thread and argument as well.

Nash is the best PG in the NBA, he deserved the MVP last season and he put up great numbers again this season.

If by some miracle Nash doesnt win, I could care less. Anyone in consideration is worthy of the MVP.

I can not take the fact that people tear Nash apart for how he plays and it not being good enough, or he is only good because of the Suns offense/system. He is the best PG in the NBA and his assit numbers from last season and this season are and will be forever in the record books. 

Finally, I am sure the voters took into account most, if not all of your arguments Pioneer. If you think they didnt, then I guess its just all a big conspiracy, I dont know what to say. The voters looked at the stats of all the players and took into account injury issues, developments with the team, and how things changed from last season. Now if you cant agree that losing JJ, Q, and Amare, and still winning 54 games while putting up 10.5 assists is an amazing accimplishment, even compared to what Kobe or LeBron did, then I have nothing left to say. All I will say is the voters made the decision and most people agree with them.


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## Morongk22 (Jan 11, 2006)

Personally i think Jason Maxiell deserved the award


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

TucsonClip said:


> Im going to leave it at this, because im sick of this thread and argument as well.
> 
> Nash is the best PG in the NBA, he deserved the MVP last season and he put up great numbers again this season.


I wonder what Kidd and Billups have to say about the best PG in the league since they both kicked Nash's *** this season



> If by some miracle Nash doesnt win, I could care less. Anyone in consideration is worthy of the MVP.


Well I hope there is that miracle because there are several more deserving candidates 



> I can not take the fact that people tear Nash apart for how he plays and it not being good enough, or he is only good because of the Suns offense/system. He is the best PG in the NBA and his assit numbers from last season and this season are and will be forever in the record books.


What will be clear is that guys like John Stockton and Jason Kidd had years better then Nash and didn't win MVP. Yet Nash not only gets one but two. 

I also love watching Nash and he seems like a good guy. What's not to like about a pass first PG who plays with the razzle dazzle of Nash? My problem is him being the MVP and I only take apart Nash in the sense that he is not MVP.



> Finally, I am sure the voters took into account most, if not all of your arguments Pioneer. If you think they didnt, then I guess its just all a big conspiracy, I dont know what to say. The voters looked at the stats of all the players and took into account injury issues, developments with the team, and how things changed from last season. Now if you cant agree that losing JJ, Q, and Amare, and still winning 54 games while putting up 10.5 assists is an amazing accimplishment, even compared to what Kobe or LeBron did, then I have nothing left to say. All I will say is the voters made the decision and most people agree with them.


Guys like Marc Stein and Ric Bucher get votes: after reading there columns for years I trust a lot more posters here on BBB.net then them. They have to write and follow the entire league of 300+ players: it's not surpising they fall into the common group think mentality. 

Again I'm denying Nash is very good player and that Phoenix has a had good season. Criticize of Nash the MVP doesnt mean that one doesn't respect Nash as a player: he's just not as strong candidate of others. In fact I find it amazing that no one respects what guys like Marion, Barbaso, Diaw, and Thomas have done this year. Where are you also getting the most people agree with argument: this MVP is going down as one of the most critized in recent memory


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Honestly I think Pioneer and I should duke it out for the MVP, lol.

I think its about that time to say we agree to disagree and call it a day.

I do enjoy an intelligent conversation, especially with fellow mods


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