# dermarr johnson



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

anyone else like this kid? i think he has the potential to be a starter on the Knicks...he has great speed, just needs a little work on his technique. when he starts playing he does good stuff like behind the back bounce passes and backdoor cutting. coach just has to work with him a little bit is all.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

He has the potential to be a starter on a non-Knick team.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I LOVE this kid....I would love to see him play at the 2 guard a bit more....He was a great talent out of Cincinatti and had that horrible car accident..He has a nice touch,is very smooth and gets to the hoop......

He is one of the reasons why i dont mind giving up Lampe so much..Hopefully he can develop into a player and hes only 24 or so..I just hope we protect him in the expansion draft


----------



## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

I have always liked DEMARR's game i wanted the RAPS to pick him off waiver a while back. :yes:


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> He has the potential to be a starter on a non-Knick team.


Mr positive,WTF does that mean???????????????????

What non Knick team??
The Lakers???Spurs????Indiana???Sacremento?????

Rashidi,get some sleep..you are delerious...That was one of your more bizzare answers

You pissed the knicks won??


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

as soon as Dikembe comes back he'll get buried on the IL. I still hope we get this kid a deal in the offseason.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> What non Knick team??


Riddle me this, what team did the Knicks play tonight? And what team did DerMarr begin his career on?

He's not going to be starting over Tim Thomas, Allan Houston, Shandon Anderson, or Penny Hardaway anytime soon. Get real. The second someone offers him a role (as in, a non-12th man role) he's gone.


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

I'm sorry to agree for the 1st time in my life with Rashidi. The guy will never start here and will leave as soon as he gets a chance of more playing time elsewhere. He played great tonight though.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

so you guys are that high on him where you think he can be a starter in the NBA???Interesting

i disagree with you on Shandon and Penny..he can beat those guys out...And If he cant,then your statement of starting on a Knick team is not true...





> He has the potential to be a starter on a non-Knick team.


 AND



> Riddle me this, what team did the Knicks play tonight? And what team did DerMarr begin his career on?


gee,thats logical..is that the only non knick team???


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

He'd come off the bench in a VITAL role on a couple of others. VITAL as in ROTATION.

Chicago has been using Ronald Dupree and Linton Johnson at SF. I find it hard to believe DerMarr wouldn't start for them. And isn't there some sort of expansion franchise next year? It surely would be ridiculous if they actually wanted someone with DerMarr's potential to start for them.

The point is, what is better for him? Starting for a lottery team, or even coming off the bench on a .500 team, or being the 12th man on a .500 team? He badly needs to play for his career to have any chance of progressing. He already missed a year last year, and he has done nothing remarkable this year. This comes after his first 2 sketchy years. He needs to play NOW or he'll find himself playing in the NBDL/Europe like Lavor Postell.



> i disagree with you on Shandon and Penny..he can beat those guys out...


You seem to forget that this is a veteran team trying to win. DerMarr can't play defense. Shandon and Penny can. He's not a better shooter either.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

I think DeMarr can be a great player on the Knicks. I think he can beat out Penny and Anderson with some work. He is young, and if we can lock him up for a few more years, he would be a pretty decent player at the very least IMO. He has the ability, he was the #6 pick coming out after his freshman season (i think), and if he can put his crash behind him and really start developing, the sky's the limit IMO.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> You seem to forget that this is a veteran team trying to win. DerMarr can't play defense. Shandon and Penny can. He's not a better shooter either.


I didnt mean this year..Of course he wont be in the rotation this year....Barring injury that is...

rashidi,some times you say the silliest things..Think about your post


So in your mind,he cant play Defense,and doesnt shoot as well as Penny or Shandon????Yet you think that



> He'd come off the bench in a VITAL role on a couple of others. VITAL as in ROTATION.


 and


> He has the potential to be a starter on a non-Knick team.


How can a guy be vital or be a potential starter when according to you,he cant play D and shoots worse than Penny and Anderson,2 guys who cant shoot to save their life????

I 100% disagree with everything you postedand thats pretty hard since you posted 2 entirely different viewpoints...

Are you just being argumentitive???

Use your noodle,


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

DC,I totally agree with you,and i say there is NO way IT lets him go....Think about it,we have NO draft picks!!!!!Penny is one injury away from the end,and H20,is falling apart......

The guy was the 6th pick 3 years ago....Thats like us getting a pick in the draft,something we dont have...With a little work,he beats out Shandon and Penny..With alot of work,he has tremendous upside..IT knows that,otherwise they wouldnt have signed him for the full year....


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> How can a guy be vital or be a potential starter when according to you,he cant play D and shoots worse than Penny and Anderson,2 guys who cant shoot to save their life????


I hate to break it to you, but Shandon and Penny would start for Chicago and Atlanta too. And they already play vital roles off the bench on a .500 team, so do you think they'd have a decreased role on a lottery team?


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,man of multiple voices in his head...You and you alone made these two opposing arguments..

Rashidi#1 says


> DerMarr can't play defense. Shandon and Penny can. He's not a better shooter either.


 vs 
Rashid#2 says


> He'd come off the bench in a VITAL role on a couple of others. VITAL as in ROTATION


when you battle it out with yourself,come back with one opinion on demmar


----------



## hatnlvr (Aug 14, 2003)

Demarr is exactly what the Knicks need!!! A young athletic player who can run the floor and has gobs of potential.

As far as him sticking with the Knicks I can totally see him sticking with the Knicks. 

If this were last season with Layden/Chaney at the helm then Hell No.. He would have been cut by now. But with Zeke in control this is exactly the type of player that he wants and fits perfectly into his system.

Demarr in my opinion should be manning the 3 with TT (with TT occasionally shifting to the 4). I like this kid and hope he sticks with the Knicks.


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

dermarr has shown he can play well given the minutes. Of course, he still has a long way to go to play some good d, but he has a great body to play d at 6'9 with long arms.

on a completely unrelated note, look at the Tim Thomas facial!!!!!!


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Demarr in my opinion should be manning the 3 with TT (with TT occasionally shifting to the 4). I like this kid and hope he sticks with the Knicks


I am with you..Dont see how you can let him go..hes young,can stroke it and fills 2 of our weaknesses...He and Sweetney are our two young guys with potential.....


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> look at the Tim Thomas facial!!!!!!


That is NASTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

I agree that DeMarr needs more minutes. He has done pretty well in the few minutes he got, and would improve with more experience and time. Instead of playing Penny and Anderson, maybe we could give some of their minutes to DeMarr. Anderson and Penny are on their way down while DeMarr is on his way up. What DeMarr needs the most right now is some more playing time IMO. Lets give some minutes to DeMarr in crunch time and see how he does with the game on the line. It's not like he can be much worse than some of the players on then.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Demarr is good, but let's not get to carried away with what we have. The guy can slash, and can defend, he can post a little and knows how to use his size. 


But he really, really, needs to figure out how to make jumps shots.

With the clock winding down for the last second shot and Starbury tripled teamed, we still have no one else but Houston to take the 18-22 footer.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

KBF,why are you a TT hater???Hes played well....
Or is it cause he is injured



> But he really, really, needs to figure out how to make jumps shots.


and to finish.....


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> KBF,why are you a TT hater???Hes played well....
> Or is it cause he is injured
> 
> ...



I'm not a hater. There isn't anyone in the NBA whom I "hate" there are people who I think are ridiculous, and people whom I think don't take their jobs seriously, but I never hate anyone.


Tim Thomas had some big shoes to fill, and to me he never did. He scored more, but gave up more points, he was more athletic, yet was a poorer rebounder, and defender, which by the way is embrassing, there are only a handful of players whom are worse at defense than KVH.


I think most people here ride his jock but don't see the truth. He may come up big, but he comes up big in games against the wizards in overtime. Do you understand what I am trying to say there?

I don't think he's a benefits our organization and this new sand in the vagina injury infuriates me. KVH played on our squad for how long while he was rehabbing an injury? Then this guy strains his groin and has to sit out a couple games??? I once read that Tim Thomas made the comment " I don't like basketball I just play it for money" or something along those lines. I can't stand that attitude. Then there was that time he refused to play for the bucks because he was out of position. At 26 years old, that's pathetic.


I think his stats aren't crunch time, and that he seems to dissappear on plays that don't involve him. I think he doesn't look to pass as much as he looks to make the play, I have seen him compeletly give up on defense. 

For these things I am not a fan. If he changes some of them and we start winning, I'll come around, but if we struggle for the 8th seed and I have to watch this kinda crap night in and night out, you can bet I'll be there to lambast the guy any chance I get.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

But he scores! Points are the only stat that matter!


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> But he scores! Points are the only stat that matter!


Yeah, and rebounds win games! Wait, defense does too. Or wait... don't you need everything to win games? What's the point of rebounding and defense if you can't break 80 pts a game and win? Granted the Knicks were a better offensive team than that, but what is your point Rashidi? Rebounds and defense are essential to a team, but so are points. The point of the game is to have more points than your opponent at the end of the game. You can be like the Pistons and win with rebounding and defense, or you can be like Dallas and win by outscoring the other team. Both ways work.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> I think his stats aren't crunch time, and that he seems to dissappear on plays that don't involve him


KBF,with thats said,do you realise that KVH's playoff scoring is over 5 points LESS than his regular season average???

TT's playoff average is slightly higher than reg season...

And i dont "think" that,i know it for a fact



> Tim Thomas had some big shoes to fill, and to me he never did. He scored more, but gave up more points, he was more athletic, yet was a poorer rebounder, and defender, which by the way is embrassing, there are only a handful of players whom are worse at defense than KVH.


That seems like a very very subjective statement...Are KVH's the big shoes you refer to???Can you present numbers that show he gave up more points??

I think most of the critics are very unfair in their treatment of TT..It like me saying KVH is responsible for Taking the Bucks,a plus .500 squad before his arrival and turning it into a sub .500 team..The Bucks have gone straight downhill since Van Horns arrival and have lost 9 of 11...And other than TJ Ford being out they are Healthy!!!!


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> KBF,with thats said,do you realise that KVH's playoff scoring is over 5 points LESS than his regular season average???
> ...


What does that have to do with anything I have said.



> That seems like a very very subjective statement...Are KVH's the big shoes you refer to???Can you present numbers that show he gave up more points??
> 
> I think most of the critics are very unfair in their treatment of TT..It like me saying KVH is responsible for Taking the Bucks,a plus .500 squad before his arrival and turning it into a sub .500 team..The Bucks have gone straight downhill since Van Horns arrival and have lost 9 of 11...And other than TJ Ford being out they are Healthy!!!!



The wins in Newyork, the two times he brought us alive in the fourth quarter against playoff caliber teams. The numbers are there on a team by team comparision basis. I'm not going to do a bunch of cut and paste work so you can ignore it and come up with some other non-sequitor.


The key that you really are missing about the bucks, is that TJ ford is down. He brings more to that team than any one player, he sets people up and just plays really outstanding, I was wrong about him.


Without an pointguard the bucks have very limited ball movement, and though what's his nose has put out some good assist numbers, he still doesn't bring the defense, and up tempo style of ford.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> I think his stats aren't crunch time


you knocked TT's scoring,and to me the playoffs are CRUNCH time,and KVH does NOT produce in the playoffs....So i could question his productivity during crunchtime as well...

I cant dispute the TJ Ford statement..I may or may not agree,but there is no way I could prove you wrong,even if I felt differently..Its a fact,since TJ went down,the Bucks have been getting pummeled


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

I certainly hope you wouldn't be trying to blame Van Horn. He only had 32 points in a 1 point loss to the Lakers. He is only averaging 19 ppg in March, and least importantly, he is still shooting a mere 50% on his field goals and 3's. When was his shooting supposed to drop off again? He's currently 9th in the league in 3pt% at .409.

The Bucks are 6-9 since TJ Ford's injury. If you even watched the games he played against the Knicks, you'd understand why.

However, the Bucks haven't been blown out by any opponents, and they recently defeated the Kings after 1 point losses to the Lakers and Blazers. Only ONE of the Bucks losses was by double figures (112-101 to the Suns)

What have the Knicks done lately? The Knicks don't have a single quality win over the same span. Their last 3 wins have come against the Hawks, an underhanded Net team, and the Wizards in OT. They have been blown out by the Grizzlies, lost to the Terri-Bulls, and lost to an underhanded Sixers team.

Want to know the difference between the Knicks and the Bucks? The Grizzlies were the FIRST west team the Knicks played all month. The Bucks on the other hand have played 6 west teams in their last 7 games, and at least managed to defeat the Kings and nearly oust the Lakers and their hall worthy starting 5.

But hey, I've talked about the Knicks' early schedule as the downfall of the previous regime all season long, I don't expect people to let things like this smack them in the forehead now.


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> I certainly hope you wouldn't be trying to blame Van Horn. He only had 32 points in a 1 point loss to the Lakers. He is only averaging 19 ppg in March, and least importantly, he is still shooting a mere 50% on his field goals and 3's. When was his shooting supposed to drop off again? He's currently 9th in the league in 3pt% at .409.
> 
> The Bucks are 6-9 since TJ Ford's injury. If you even watched the games he played against the Knicks, you'd understand why.
> ...


The end of the previous era was 3 years worth of crap moves, not a hard scheduele for the first 20 gms or so.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

as you see Mr rashidi,there are numerous reasons and excuses as to why a team may succede or fail..its all very subjective....That is why the only number that matters is the bottom line..See,you blame TT and excuse Keith cause Ford is out..We could come back and say Houston is injured..But the TT supporters only say to give him a chance,anything is better than Layden,and so far that is true...


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> That is why the only number that matters is the bottom line..See,you blame TT and excuse Keith cause Ford is out..


1. Sorry, you can't blame Keith, he is still playing well.

2. Ford is more important to the Bucks than TT or Houston are to the Knicks. What you fail to realize is that Houston isn't a 20 point scorer with Marbury on the team. He's really only going to put up 15 ppg now. How much of that does he give right back on defense? Same with TT, how much does he give right back on defense? Ford is the catalyst for Milwuakee, and he's out. Speaking of catalysts, where is Marbury when his team needs him?


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

I find it funny how I'm somehow excusing the Bucks for losing to good teams, while Marbury couldn't even take over a game against the pathetic Bulls.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

in my opinion,marbury is hurt..he has NO lift whatsoever..



> Sorry, you can't blame Keith, he is still playing well.


yes,but so is TT...you never acknowledge that...you cant deny that the Bucks are playing horribly..if it were the knicks you would be ballistic....



> Ford is more important to the Bucks than TT or Houston are to the Knicks


Hmmm..thats a verrrrrry subjective statement.....it could very well be a poor excuse for the Bucks terrible performance since the KVH trade


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> you cant deny that the Bucks are playing horribly..if it were the knicks you would be ballistic....


The Knicks ARE playing horribly if you haven't noticed. Their last quality win came against Indiana over a month ago. They have been horrible with and without Tim Thomas. Did TT miss the game against Chicago or something that I don't remember?


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Hmmm..thats a verrrrrry subjective statement.....it could very well be a poor excuse for the Bucks terrible performance since the KVH trade


Very subjective? Perhaps you missed the Bucks games against the Knicks this year. The first 2 Ford won for them, and the 4th they lost because they didn't have him to penetrate the Knick defense in the 4th quarter. This is a no-brainer. Houston and TT score 15 ppg and give it right back on defense. I don't see Shandon/Penny/DJ as a major downgrade. Not compared to Ford who was 4th in the league in assists per minute the last time I checked, who just does more things than Damon Jones does.

If Marbury were not on this team then it would be different, but Houston's role is different now, and Ford is just flat out more important to Milwuakee than Houston is to the Knicks. There's a reason the Bucks have "overachieved" this season. Most people expected them to be the worst team in the east. Clearly Ford is a big reason why they're not. In comparison, Marbury is supposed to be a superstar, and a superstar should be able to lead a team to a better record, regardless of who is playing. Kobe and the Lakers didn't lose to scrub teams last year when Shaq was out. What happened to the Marbury from Jersey and Phoenix, who would take all the shots? The 2nd and 3rd options are out, and his last 30 point effort was 10 games ago (when both were healthy).


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Not to take anything away from TJ, he's a good young PG, but I think the ascent of Michael Redd to all-star caliber is the biggest single reason for the Bucks success. He was a 11.4 ppg guy in 2002, 15.1 pts last year, and 21.8 this year.

And one of the reasons you are diminishing Houston's role on this team is due to his injury. First off, he's not a 15 ppg guy. Even this year he's at 18.8, and last year he was a 22.5 ppg guy.

So sure, a hobbled Houston may be of less importance to his team than a healthy PG.

But imagine the scenario were to reverse. Imagine if Houston were to start pumping in at last years rate of 22.5, and the Knicks were winning, but Redd dropped back to last years rate of 15.8, while the Bucks were losing. I'd suspect then your focus on the Knicks would be on Houston and on the Bucks it would be Redd.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> He was a 11.4 ppg guy in 2002, 15.1 pts last year, and 21.8 this year.


Yes but his increased point production this year is due to his increased minutes. He was already playing this way last year and deserved to be 6th man of the year (Bobby Jackson started half of the season, and averaged 19 ppg while starting, how does that make him a 6th man?). Ford has been the difference this year. How is Redd affected by Ford's absense? *Redd is only shooting .238 on three's in the month of March, part of which you can probably attribute to the loss of Ford's penetration.* I'd consider that to be a pretty good reason.



> And one of the reasons you are diminishing Houston's role on this team is due to his injury. First off, he's not a 15 ppg guy. Even this year he's at 18.8, and last year he was a 22.5 ppg guy.


Wrong. Houston WAS a 20 ppg guy. WAS as in before the Marbury trade. He is averaging 15 ppg in March. That's what happens when you're not the primary offensive option anymore, you score fewer points. And if Houston is shooting less, this already devalues him because he has no other value. If he isn't adding much to the defense, then his value is not what it was if he's not making back what he loses in points.

November 20 ppg
December 21 ppg
January 17 ppg
March 15 ppg

Imagine how many points Vince Carter would have scored tonight if Houston were guarding him instead of Anderson.

Do I think Houston has no value to the Knicks? No, of course not. Do I think he has less value than TJ Ford does to the Bucks?


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> Kobe and the Lakers didn't lose to scrub teams last year when Shaq was out. What happened to the Marbury from Jersey and Phoenix, who would take all the shots? The 2nd and 3rd options are out, and his last 30 point effort was 10 games ago (when both were healthy).


Actually, their record was like 8-9 if I remember correctly, but anyway the Marbury you are talking about was playing tonight, he dropped 38 on the Raptors, most of the points coming in the second half. 30 point games just don't happen every game, unless your last name happens to be Jordan.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes but his increased point production this year is due to his increased minutes. He was already playing this way last year and deserved to be 6th man of the year (Bobby Jackson started half of the season, and averaged 19 ppg while starting, how does that make him a 6th man?). Ford has been the difference this year. How is Redd affected by Ford's absense? *Redd is only shooting .238 on three's in the month of March, part of which you can probably attribute to the loss of Ford's penetration.* I'd consider that to be a pretty good reason.


C'mon, 3pt % don't drop like that from a lack of penetration, he's in a slump. If you want to convince me otherwise why don't you show me his percentages every month of this season and last, I'd like to watch the ebb and flow. Then show me the monthly percentages for everyone else on the team so we can see if they all parallel each other. Then you'll have convinced me of something.



> Wrong. Houston WAS a 20 ppg guy. WAS as in before the Marbury trade. He is averaging 15 ppg in March. That's what happens when you're not the primary offensive option anymore, you score fewer points. And if Houston is shooting less, this already devalues him because he has no other value. If he isn't adding much to the defense, then his value is not what it was if he's not making back what he loses in points.
> 
> November 20 ppg
> December 21 ppg
> ...


Gee, that woudn't have anything to do with the fact the pain in his knees became increasingly unbearable to the point he had to sit for 20 games.

But in your mind everything is due to point guards?

Well let's test that...
If Redd's 3p% is down due to TJ's absence, then surely Houston's percentage should be up in March by a similar degree, due to Marbury's presence, right? Is it?



> There's a reason the Bucks have "overachieved" this season. Most people expected them to be the worst team in the east. Clearly Ford is a big reason why they're not.


I'm sure Ford is part of the reason, but not to the degree you'd like us to believe. Here's why.

TJ, this year with Bucks:
7.1 ppg, .384 FG%, .238 3p%, 6.5 apg, 

He replaced Cassell and Payton:

Payton last year, with Bucks:
20.4 ppg, 454 fg%, .297 3p%, 8.3 apg

Cassell last year, with Bucks:
19.7 ppg, .470 fg%, .362 3p%, 5.8 apg.

Ford can't hold a candle next to either of those guys, let alone the two combined. The PG position has been a huge drop off in production from last year to this... yet the Bucks overall record is similar. Clearly, considering the awesome dropoff in production at the PG position their success isn't due primarily to TJ Ford.

Now I know you'll tell me that Cassell got some of that playing SG. True, and Redd is making up for the loss there, not TJ.



> In comparison, Marbury is supposed to be a superstar, and a superstar should be able to lead a team to a better record, regardless of who is playing.


Sometimes you exceed yourself. If you actually followed the Knicks you'd know he has done just that. They played losing ball before he got here. Yet inspite of all the turnover of personnel, and all the key injuries, this team has played winning ball since he's been here.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> In comparison, Marbury is supposed to be a superstar, and a superstar should be able to lead a team to a better record, regardless of who is playing. Kobe and the Lakers didn't lose to scrub teams last year when Shaq was out. What happened to the Marbury from Jersey and Phoenix, who would take all the shots? The 2nd and 3rd options are out, and his last 30 point effort was 10 games ago (when both were healthy).


Rashidi, I really want you to answer this for me. Is Vince Carter a superstar? Elton Brand? Tracy McGrady? Allen Iverson? Shawn Marion? You might not think all of them are superstars, but you can't deny Iverson, McGrady, and Carter. Hey, aren't they suppose to be superstars too? The Lakers are lucky because they have two superstars on their team, not someting you can say for New York, Orlando, Philly, Toronto...


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Superstar is an overused euphemism. Not every era has a superstar....just "superstars" for that particular era. AI has done nothing that Tiny could not have done if he jacked up 30 shots a game. He was a better passer, man to man defender, and shooter. And...he was just as quick. Tmac, Carter and especially Bryant remind me of the Doctor. Everything is relative and these guys score so much because they take a ton of shots. If you gave a healthy Houston 30 shots a game, he'd average 30-35 pts...same with VH...Redd...Odom...and a ton of others. Even at a paltry 40%, it equals 12 fg which is at least 24 pts and more for Houston, not counting FT. Show me a guy that averages 25+on 45%+ shooting, 6+boards, and 6+apg, and WINS and I'll show you a superstar.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Alpha, don't you think this whole reliance on "winning" being the ultimate determining factor of greatness a bit of bull? King never won. Stocton and Malone. Barkley. Alex English. Nate Thurmond. Maravich.

Some will say Ewing wasn't great, but he WAS as good as Reed and Frazier, who were great. But Ewing never had their equal in teammates. Even the great Frazier and Reed couldn't "win" until Debusschere was added.

I'm not the greatest of historians but there were tons of guys who are considered great because they ultimateley landed with a team that won it all, but they played with teans that also went nowhere. Were they less great on the bad teams? The great Oscar Robinson only won one championship. Was he only great for one year?


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Oak...what I meant was this: I don't think that winning a title is the ultimate definition of a great player. I also don't think that being a great one on one player and putting up gobs of points defines greatness. I do, however, admire a guy that can will his team to go beyind where it should be able to go. For example, AI has heart, wills his team to go higher, but really shoots a horrible % that dips below40 when the playoffs start. Big black mark. Kobe has always had Shaq, so we really don't know if he can be great with just a supporting cast...same with Tmac. Ewing, we know was. That poor &%$## never has a supporting star. Do you see what I mean? So many guys(especially young 'uns) define greatness by points and highlights and I just don't see things like that. One year Bird averaged like 27,10,and 7..that is just awesome. Magic flirted with AVERAGING a triple double twice and definately made the Lakers winners. Drexler would be considered a superstar these days but I thought he was a star..period. Thats just my opinion, though. I'm a tough judge. I don't think BK was a superstar, but I think he could have been if he stayed healthy.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Well, we're probably in agreement, it's just hard to know. Terms like star, superstar, winner, make teams better, etc are used pretty losely and are not at all defined. It makes things so confusing.

Oscar is a good example. Mr triple double. Yet some people think he scored too much and prefer a guy like Stockton, thinking Stockton made his teammates better. But who made their team better? I really don't know. We see the same with guys like Isiah and Marbury -- PGs who score. Some say Marbury can never win cause he scores too much. Marbury actually puts up better numbers than Isiah, but Isiah won. But then Isiah had better teammates, so naturally.

I guess the uncertainty of it all is what makes good fodder on discussion boards like this.


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

marbury isnt the floor general isiah was


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> Oak...what I meant was this: I don't think that winning a title is the ultimate definition of a great player. I also don't think that being a great one on one player and putting up gobs of points defines greatness. I do, however, admire a guy that can will his team to go beyind where it should be able to go. For example, AI has heart, wills his team to go higher, but really shoots a horrible % that dips below40 when the playoffs start. Big black mark. Kobe has always had Shaq, so we really don't know if he can be great with just a supporting cast...same with Tmac. Ewing, we know was. That poor &%$## never has a supporting star. Do you see what I mean? So many guys(especially young 'uns) define greatness by points and highlights and I just don't see things like that. One year Bird averaged like 27,10,and 7..that is just awesome. Magic flirted with AVERAGING a triple double twice and definately made the Lakers winners. Drexler would be considered a superstar these days but I thought he was a star..period. Thats just my opinion, though. I'm a tough judge. I don't think BK was a superstar, but I think he could have been if he stayed healthy.


I agree with you mostly alpha, which was why I asked Rashidi if a superstar had to win to be a "superstar." Points aren't a good way to define how good a plyer is. Look at Kobe last year with Shaq out. He was scoring 30+ and 40+ for howm any games? Yet, with Shaq back he averages around 25. McGrady and AI don't have supporting players like Shaq, so naturally, they score more. However, I think that McGrady and AI are true superstars, not just because they score. I think McGrady is at least or close to being Bryant's equal. You take Shaq off the Lakers and Kobe would have a tough time carrying his team to victory. Last year, the Lakers were in deep trouble when Shaq was out. Have Shaq go back to Orlando and McGrady could take the role of Bryant easily. AI really willed the Sixers to the Finals in 2000. He made his team better and they overachieved. The Sixers aren't even close to being what they were a few years ago, but when you take an average team to the Finals on your back, I think that makes hima superstar. Granted, the East wasn't a tough conference, but the Sixer were really an average team back then. Mutumbo could defend and rebound but his offense was horrible. The Sixers had a bunch of role players trying to help Iverson. 
How many players really make their team better? It is a very subjective term IMO. For example, Shaq didn't win until Kobe developed, was it Shaq who made the Lakers win or Kobe? It is very hard to determine if someone really made a team better because there are always many things that influence a teams improvement.


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

You're wrong about Shaq...he was in the finals against Houston when he was with the magic and if Anderson didn't melt down, they would have won. I do have a real question for all you AI fans. If he is a superstar, then why are so many of his team mates privately praying he gets traded? It was on an interview on TV before the trading deadline. Ai scores a lot of points but he is not an efficient scorer and he does take his mates out of the game. There is a reason that they can't find a guy to be Poncho to his Cisco. Whether or not he makes his team better is a good question. The year they went to the finals, the East was a sham(for the most part, still is) and to get there over the teams they did was NOT a significant accomplishment. If you think with your heads and not your hearts, you know its true.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

i think we have varied opinions on the definition of a superstar...

we need to define it....

and you are definetly correct in the assumption that nowadays you need 2 "superstars" to bring you to the promised land,or at least a dominant center and a strong supporting cast


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> You're wrong about Shaq...he was in the finals against Houston when he was with the magic and if Anderson didn't melt down, they would have won. I do have a real question for all you AI fans. If he is a superstar, then why are so many of his team mates privately praying he gets traded? It was on an interview on TV before the trading deadline. Ai scores a lot of points but he is not an efficient scorer and he does take his mates out of the game. There is a reason that they can't find a guy to be Poncho to his Cisco. Whether or not he makes his team better is a good question. The year they went to the finals, the East was a sham(for the most part, still is) and to get there over the teams they did was NOT a significant accomplishment. If you think with your heads and not your hearts, you know its true.


Yeah Shaq was in the finals with the Magic but they got swept. He didn't really win a championship until Kobe developed. He wasn't able to get over that hump. My point is would you say that Shaq or Kobe made the Lakers better, since the Lakers didn't do so well when one of them was out. The Shaq on the Magic had a pretty decent supporting class too.

AI is definitely a superstar IMO. Yes the East wasn¡¦t strong, but he beat a young Pacers team with Reggie and Jermaine O¡¦Neil and others. They didn¡¦t have a real star at that time but had much more depth than the Sixers. The Sixers beat Toronto and Vince Carter, and the Raptors had a better supporting class too. The Sixers beat the Bucks, who had Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, and Sam Cassell. The Sixers went 4 games, 7 games, and 7 games in the East Conference playoffs. They could have lost the Raptors and Bucks series easily, but AI was great in both game 7¡¦s and carried them on his back. He had crap for a supporting class, at least compared to other playoff teams. Also, the Sixers were the only team able to beat the Lakers in the 200 playoffs. Iverson was just plain great in game 1 against the Lakers and carried the Sixers to a victory, something other players, such as Tim Duncan, weren¡¦t able to do.


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

The guy shoots 39% in the playoffsHow is that carrying on his back? You must mean he scored alot by taking alot of shots....


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

And by the way....how old was Shaq when he got his first taste of success? How old was the magic team that got swept? You need a dose of reality.


I disagree with you somewhat,Truth. I don't think you need a dominant center. I think you need a superstar and a lower level star with a good cast of role players. Too many stars and you have poor chemistry..to few and you lack talent. Everybody must have a well defined role. No superstar will lead his team to a title without a strong willing team around him. Marbury is good but he will need more help than we have on the team at the present. We are weak with ball handling/passing...perimeter shooting, and defense. How do we address these? I know yoou are a TT fan going by the numbers and that is your right but what I see is a team in total chaos. TT doesn't know when to shoot or when to drive or when to pass. He also doesnt use picks or spot up as well as the guy he replaced so that hurts a bit too(I am not talking aboout just being able to shoot). With Houston gone SM must feel like he's alone on an island.

I think we all can agree that the Knicks are far from talented enough so my honest question is this: How do we realistically get much better. Please no responses like TT is going to turn into a star..ok? We are going to need a really good 2 guard and someone must be the equal of SM as far as star quality..but who?...and how?


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> The guy shoots 39% in the playoffsHow is that carrying on his back? You must mean he scored alot by taking alot of shots....


I agree. Vince Carter sucks in the playoffs. Tim Thomas would kill him if they faced each other in the playoffs. Especially with all the triple teams that TT draws come playoff time.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> The guy shoots 39% in the playoffsHow is that carrying on his back? You must mean he scored alot by taking alot of shots....


Rashidi,alfa is referring to AI

Why are you bringing up Vince and putting down TT???Stop the Hatred!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



> I agree. Vince Carter sucks in the playoffs. Tim Thomas would kill him if they faced each other in the playoffs. Especially with all the triple teams that TT draws come playoff time.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> I think we all can agree that the Knicks are far from talented enough so my honest question is this: How do we realistically get much better


1) You judge the team when its healthy,(if ever )and they have played together..You guys are myopic,and refuse to give the current squad a fraction of the chance we gave layden

2)While you are at it get off the Thomas hate bandwagon,that most of you have been on before the trade,without ever realising he is just as good a shooter as KVH...Thomas is potentially more talented than the great vanishing act,KVH...Give the guy a chance,just like KVH,and lets see if he can utilise that talent....

(BTW,Thomas serving KVH a donut in the second half while scoring 18 of the last game proves you hatersare DEAD wrong with all your excuses..Enough already)

3) Demmar Johnson will be a very good 2 guard,in my humble opinion..Hes 6'9",gets to the hoop and is at least as good defensively as laydens 100 million dollar man H20..

4) Sweetney has the goods to be a 15pt,12 recound guy......

I like this team,not necessarily now with all the injuries,but we have the pieces in place..What we NEED is a big man like DAMP....

A lineup of 

Starbury
Houston/Demmar
Damp
Thomas/Sweetney
TT/Demmar

is not bad at all.We have the pieces to be very competitive...if you are thinking NBA championship,dream on..You need a Shaq signing for that,or the luck of the lottery


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> And by the way....how old was Shaq when he got his first taste of success? How old was the magic team that got swept? You need a dose of reality.
> 
> 
> ...


Again, it depends on what you call success alpha. Do I need a dose of reality? Maybe, but explain to me why I need a dose. Just because I don't like Shaq that much? 

AI carried his team on his back. Yes he shot 39% in the playoffs, but if he didn't shoot, who would? You expect McKie, Snow, and "No Offense" Mutumbo to score enough to advance the Sixers? I still stand by the fact that AI carried the team, because without AI, the Sixers would never have advanced that far. Stats aren't everything. 
For the Knicks to improve, they have to keep DerMarr Johnson and keep developing to succeed Houston. Give Sweetney more miutes so he can gain experience. Let Frankie Williams play over Norris and let him develope too. Hopefully, we can get Dampier
as first choice and if we can't, try to get Stormile Swift. Both can be pretty good centers, especially in the East. Swift will be undersized but I see he kind of like a Ben Wallace with more offense and less defense. Look at his stats this year, they are amazing. In two years: 

PG: Marbury (still 29)/Williams
SG: Houston/Dermarr
SF: TT/Dermarr/Anderson/Penny
PF: Sweetney/KT
C: Dampier(or Swift)/Nazr

Dermarr would be primary backup for both SG and SF to get omre minutes. He might even be better tha n Houston and could take his spot. Sweetney might not be that ready and could be backup to KT. If we get Swift he can Nazr could split the duty and both could be productive. This might not be a great lineup, but IMO it is pretty good, considering Sweetney and Dermarr develope a bit. We have the one superstar Marbury. Lower level star is up for grabs, hopefully Sweetney could be at that level (poor man's Elton Brand type) but if not, Houston is arguably there. DerMarr and TT have an outside chance to develope into a lower level star. We have a bunch of quality role players, such as Dampier/Swift, Nazr, KT, Williams... This is hoping that Sweetney, Dermarr, Williams, and maybe Swidt develope. Probably not all of them will develope, but the chances are at least one or two will, and some, like Williams and Swift, are already quality role players. We don't have somone with Marbury's star power, but the Spurs didn't have anyone last year either. I think that would be a quality team.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I agree with what you say but I am far more optomistic on two guys...Sweetney and Demmar



> Sweetney might not be that ready and could be backup to KT.


Sweetney will be head and shoulders above KT...He just has to condition like karl malone and not tractor traylor...Sweetney has that Rodman gift for getting to the ball,but has more offense...

I am super high on Demmar...Same thing though,he has to get NBA strong and keep working......

Center is our glaring weakness...We have no consistency from the 5


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Truth..I'm not a TT hater. I just don't think he is all that. He is fairly one dimensional...offense. You will never convince me that he is an equal shooter to VH because the numbers say so, I could give you numbers of guys that compare to TT and you know they aren't as good of a shooter. But lets just leave that where it is. I am subjective in that I favor qualifying the quantities. Six doesn't always equal six. Lets also not lump me in with others on the whole Layden thing, ok? I judge every issue on its own merits as I see them and don't do blanket indictments. I am not a Layden fan but I do like his last draft and the VH trade for Spree...thats it. I don't like his choice for coach, nor was I in favor of the Camby trade..and yes, I am aware that without it we don't get Vujanic.

As far as TT being a star..well...the Bucks hoped so, but he never fulfilled it, did he? How many years? I know you like him and think he will reach his potential but how many guys have found their pace after so much time? I'm not a hater, just not a believer.I don't disagree that we have some talent...but we don't have enough. And lastly...you don't need a Shaq to win a title. It is wide open this year. The Kings have a shot...the Mavs..Lakers...Spurs...'Wolves...Nets(if they get healthy)...Pistons..Pacers..surely you must get my point. The Knicks are not as talented as any of them. Houston will NEVER be 100% again. The next great defensive game the Nazr has will be his first. Sweetney is too young. Johnson is too inexperienced and erratic. TT is way too poor on "d"( as is DJ and Sweets). It is not a great roster and YES..I want to win a title. For a NYC guy to not shoot for that is beynd what I can fathom.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Alfa,sorry ,when i said "YOU",i didnt mean you specifically..i meant everyone...I am NOT,nor have I ever been a TT supporter....But from the little I have seen of him,I do think he can be a very very good player....I will say the same thing about Demmarr..Never saw him play before,but i think the guy has the potential to be very very good..same thing with Sweetney...I was very down on him before...Now it come out his dad passed away before camp,he was totally indifferent towards BBall and gained 20 pounds....But you can see,he has the potential to be very very good.....

Is Wilkens the guy???Dont think so....To be honest,Sweetney and Demmarr will make it on their own..It seems like TT needs motivation,not a good sign..But he has the tools....

We are a big man,chemistry and a little luck away from being tough...

You are right..as of right now the Knicks arent as talented as the other teams..thats why the Knicks would need a Shaq to win it all...They could be very competitive with a Damp....

BTW,I have nothing against being a TT hater..But at least be fair and realise the guy has played pretty well in NYC...


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> 
> I don't disagree that we have some talent...but we don't have enough. And lastly...you don't need a Shaq to win a title. It is wide open this year. The Kings have a shot...the Mavs..Lakers...Spurs...'Wolves...Nets(if they get healthy)...Pistons..Pacers..surely you must get my point. The Knicks are not as talented as any of them. Houston will NEVER be 100% again. The next great defensive game the Nazr has will be his first. Sweetney is too young. Johnson is too inexperienced and erratic. TT is way too poor on "d"( as is DJ and Sweets). It is not a great roster and YES..I want to win a title. For a NYC guy to not shoot for that is beynd what I can fathom.


It's true that we probably don't have the talent to challenge this year, but to be honest I don't think our future is that bleak, as I think you were implying before. Sweetney and Dermarr could develope into very special players. They, including Nazr and maybe TT, are relatively young and can develope even more. Marbury is still 27 too, so it's not like the Knicks can't afford to wait a year or two. If the KNicks can get Dampier or Swift with the MLE, then i think the Knicks will be competative next year probably and in 2 years at least.


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

You will NEVER get those guys or anyone like them with the MLE..So my question is AGAIN...how do we improve as a team. I don't want to hear abouot liking the guys we have because we have all asmitted they are not enough. We are set in spots. HOW DO WE GET THE PLAYER(S) THAT WE NEED TO CONTEND? Remember...we have about a 4-5 year window before Marbury starts to break down. He is already showing signs(bad ankles).


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Alfa,you are answering your own question,which is why Layden and Dolan ruined the franchise..We Should have started rebuilding instead of trading for McKnee....Instead of realising how dire our situation was when Mcknee went down,Knick management mad a consious decision not to play the rooks and tank the season..Now we are gonna pay for it big time..Thats the real answer....

You better hope

1) Demmar is the real deal
2) TT can live up to his potential
3) Sweetney keeps on developing
4) Naz develops a consistent game(doubtful)
5) Hope you can pick up a Keon Clark or a Camby in the cheap

This is reality...maybe not the answer you wanted but its the truth...

I do have a question..if Houston retires when does his salary get cleared,or do we just get a medical exception??


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Alpha, I agree we are screwed. I just think we were screwed from the start. It all starts with Dolan, an owner who knows nothing about hoops, yet who wanted to stick his drunk face into the puchbowl.

Layden wasn't rebuilding, he just got some drafts as a consolation prize for failing. Isiah talks of blowing the team up. I don't know what he meant, but we know Dolan insists on making the playoffs.

I guess unlike you, I'm willing to be content in the short/medium term being a winning club, even it's we're not title contenders. I couldn't stomach an unwatchable team without a plan. Layden would have done no better than Isaih, he'd have packaged Othella and Lampe for Ostertag. He'd have packaged Ward and a 1st round draft for Dale Davis, etc. In 14 years in the league he's never upgraded one single player at any position. It's frightening.

Once Spoon was signed, and Rice was traded for Shandon and Eisley, all hopes to rebuild were pissed away. And rushing McKnee back into the lineup is all the proof we need that Layden/Dolan were desperately trying to make the playoffs, so there was no plan for a lottery pick either way.

Now I admit I still don't understand the plan, other than that Isiah went for different types of players than Layden. He wanted faster, more athletic, somewhat hungrier players. Not saying he succeeded on every count, but I think he sensed that the majority of NYers had tired of Layden's style of ball. I think he believes this cast, and I know they haven't yet, can get meaner than Layden's chior boys ever could aspire to. I support that effort.

Now there is a lot of lumping and labeling going on here. You're being dubbed a TT hater, and I believe you are dubbing me a fan. The truth is I'm not a TT fan, I just wasn't a VH fan either. There are some differences between the two, but many more similarities. My only point about TT was that I think he is a parallel replacement to VH, they differ mainly in that VH has historically put up more shots as a 2nd option than TT has as a 4th. Stats bear that out. As does comparing them both as Knicks, and career playoffs. I'm not saying I think TT will be T-mac, but I do think he will be VH.

Houston being down is a major dissapointment for anyone who wants the Knicks to win. Had I known how bad his condition I mightn't have supported the Marbury trade. I'd have supported the lottery, and moves to dump any large and long contracts we could. If Isiah knew the degree of Houston's condition it may damage my impression of him. But then, Dolan and Steve Nix and other Garden management should have known it too, and made sure Isiah acted in accordance of that. If it were known that Houston were down, even if we weren't going to sel loff and tank, perhaps our assests could have been used to get Sheed and Crawford, or some other combination of players.

So for the future, the only position that is covered is PG. Evrything other position is movable and in need of upgrade. What really pisses me off is that some of our best trade assests will be left exposed in the expansion draft, which further puts the pinch on us.

But putting that aside, we have favorable contracts in Mutombo, Othella, Dermarr, F-Will, Sweetney, Nazr, Norris. And even KT is not too overpriced. That's a fair amount of flexibility. And come trade deadline next year, even TT and Hardaway will have trade value with only 1.5 yrs left on their contracts. So, we need a lot of players but we do have a fair number of guys who are movable. And if we can waive Shandon and retire Houston, we'd be under the cap pretty soon.

So were started screwed and we're ending screwed. We started with one all-star calibre player in Houston, with a nice 2nd option in VH, and now we have a better all-star player in Marbury, with a parallel player to VH in TT. If Houston were in the mix it would have been distinct progress. With him out it's treading water. I felt very stuck being so far under the cap, with limited talent, while pushing for the playoffs, that I was willing to make an expensive trade for Marbury. But with Houston out, and the Knicks treading water, and a lottery pick so close yet so far, now I'm not so sure. I want that friggin lottery pick.


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Mostly I agree with you. I guess I don't think of you as either a TT fan or a VH hater, I just thik we disagree on TT's future level. I liked VH as a rebounding , shooting SF. I still think he is more capable of getting hot with more regularity and carrying a club but we can disagree, it's all good. I was in favor of a complete rebuild by draft, trade, and free agent. I am aware of the three years of suffering with bad contracts. When that failed to materialize, I wanted to trade for a stud SF. I would have given the moon for the #3 pick. I think #9 plus the two first rouonders given to phoenix might have done it. Williams, Houston(who knew?), 'Melo, VH and center by committee until we work a deal for Nazr or, better yet, Dampier. All that I believe was do-able. The Marbury trade put us in a nut hold and the TT trade castrated us as far as flexibility. I'm no different than most of you except I'm much older, much more cynical, and maybe a bit more of a realist. I hope for great things but after all I have seen over the years, I don't see them happening. Just so you think I'm over the hill, my kids call me Jpappy or Pdizzle)


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

Right now allw e can really do is hope our few young players improve and pan out. We are so far over the cap that I doubt we will be able to get under it soon. I don't really agree with Oakley that we could get under the cap soon. I don't thin Houston will retire, and to trade Hardaway and TT away we would probably have to take back a contract with a similar value. Teams that would want our "expiring" contracts are usually teams what want to rebuild, so they would not trade any real expiring contracts to us. If we were able to trade TT or Penny, it would be for another overpriced player witha long contract probably. We really don't have much flexibility right now. 

As for the future, I do think we could get Swift or Dampier with the MLE. We could offer a long deal, 6 or 7 years, that is very backloaded. I remember once seeing a report on ESPN that Odom might accept a contract like that to come to the Knicks a year ago, but obviously that turned out to be wrong. A backloaded contract would count only the MLE (4.5 million right?) the first year and would raise each year. We might be able to get one of the guys if they are willing to take a contract like that and play in NY. Some other players besides Dampier and Swift that we could go after:

Mehmut Okur: The Pistons probably can't resign both Rasheed and Okur, so we might get a shoot at one of them. Okur coudl platoon with Nazr at the very least and could play decently. I don't think the chances are very high though because Okur would probably want a pretty big contract.

Greg Ostertag: Don't laugh at me now plz =P I'm not a supporter of Layden, but Ostertag could be helpful in NY. Defensive bigman who could platoon with Nazr and who won't be that expensive. Best case we can get Ostertag at the veterens minimum, though that is the best case. 

Chris Mihm: For all of you Dolec lovers here is a better version. Again, would platoon with Nazr and could be decent.

Keon Clark: If he is recovered from his injuries, he could be a good undersized center in the East. Would be a great bigman off the bench and could play both PF and C, not that is a big need. 

Marcus Camby: If Camby opts out of his contract it is possible for him to return to NY. If Camby can stay healthy he would give the knicks a pretty big boast IMO. Camby has talent, but is injury rideen. This would be a gamble, and Camby would probably want a pretty big contract.

Well, all of the players are bigmen and for a reason. Withonly the MLE, the knicks can only look at 2nd to 3rd tier players. They will have to use a creative and enticing contract to get most players too. You look at the talented FAs such as Crawford, Ginobilli, Arroyo... they would either ask for a price we can't pay or play a position we don't need. The only options we can really get are big men.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dcrono3</b>!
> I don't really agree with Oakley that we could get under the cap soon. I don't thin Houston will retire, and to trade Hardaway and TT away we would probably have to take back a contract with a similar value. Teams that would want our "expiring" contracts are usually teams what want to rebuild, so they would not trade any real expiring contracts to us. If we were able to trade TT or Penny, it would be for another overpriced player witha long contract probably. We really don't have much flexibility right now.


Good point, I wasn't thinking straight there. But it cuts both ways. You do need big contracts to trade for big contracts. There are high ticket guys out there who become discgruntled with management, or the fan base, and want to be moved. Think guys like Payton a couple of years ago, Webber now, Iverson (management may want to move him), McGrady, etc. Some under-the-cap teams are running so threadbare on salaries they couldn't take on someone like that if they wanted to. That is a kind of inflexibility in and of itself. So those expiring contracts don't help us much in the FA market, but they're huge in the trade market.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Anyone got a list of guys who've taken an MLE lately? I'm not too optimistic about our prospects there.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

oak brings up a very good point..How can you support any one trade when you have no idea who will be thier teamates,coach,or gm the next day...


we draft lampe and sweets
we get mcdyss back
we get deke
we trade spree
we get van horn
chaney is fired
layden is fired
we get thomas
we trade dyss
we trade van horn
we get tt
we give up draft picks 
we give up lampe

I mean how can you judge any of the trades,when you have no idea what piece to what puzzle they will be???

Its insanity and there is only one man to blame..the same guy who ruine the Rangers,ruined the knicks..me Dolan

with that said,i am not as down on the knicks as the rest of you...

I think we are a big man away from being very good,a stable 8 man rotation,and no more injuries......

I honestly believe Marbury is a top 3 point guard

I believe Sweetney is going to be a monster...Guys he is still a chubster

I am not a TT fan/hater but the guy is $%^ talented...You guys are right and wrong..The guy is a braincell away from being an All star...One $%^^^ing brain cell....

I am very high on Demarr Johnson..Give him the summer to hit the weights and LEARN the game...The guy is 6'9",can shoot dribble rebound and take it to the hole...

KT is serviceable

We desperately need a 5......Unfortunetly baker will still need some time to get it back and its a huge IF..But last night he did showe some great post moves and took it right to the best shotblocker in the league..If he or someone else could do that somewhat consistently,the future is not that bleak


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Hitting the weights is NOT going to make DJ any bigger. Some guys are just way skinny and he is one of them. Gervin is another.
Syracuse has had a couple of guys there that were built like him..Damone Brown and now Warrick. They have had these guys on special diets and lifting routines but nothjing much happens. 

Lets recap: We have an excellent pg...so far. We have a big blank at the shooting guard spot(And you must call it that until DJ shows consistent signs of being very good, not just flashes), a solid guy at the 3...so far. Sweetney may be very good but for now he is essentially a board guy(I like him to get better but until he does, he is also a questionmark). We have a rebounding center who I like offensively, but he is a liability on D..like pretty much all the other guys I just mentioned except Marbury. I happen to think the SG will be a bigger problem than the center but I have no doubts that we will NOT be getting anyone significant here unless we trade some of the guys we like....you know...the future.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

i also think sg is our most pressing need. dj shows signs but he's pretty raw. and we can always stick kt at center in a pinch. if i could get one near star right now i think i'd take a sg. we need someone who can pop.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Sorry guys....i have my vision and its Demmarr Johnson...He is going to bring it next year,and by the way,H20 may very well be at full strength next year...

we are set at small foward..TT is good..and maybe much more

Power foward with KT and Sweets is just fine

We have 3 guys at the 5 ..we just need one decent one..BTW baker may come around and be halfway decent

Alfa,If Demmarr hits the weights,he could put on 20 pounds easy...I put in 40 pounds at syracuse when i played..The dude survived a broken neck and is playing ball..You dont think he can put his mind to it and bulk up???

He can lift with marbury..hes a strong mofo


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> Sorry guys....i have my vision and its Demmarr Johnson...He is going to bring it next year,and by the way,H20 may very well be at full strength next year...
> 
> we are set at small foward..TT is good..and maybe much more
> ...


Truth, you played for Syracuse? Never knew that, probably cause i'm a latecomer, haha. 

PG is perfectly fine, we have a great one with a pretty decent backup. 

SG is up for grabs IMO. IF Houton heals for next season we should be fine, but right now the chances don't look very good. Is that why the knicks were rumored to be after Jamal Crawford before the trading deadline? Houston with Dermarr backing up is fine, but Dermarr with Anderson (or Anderson with Dermarr) is not. 

SF is good, TT is pretty good with Anderson and Hardaway backing hi up. Penny and Anderson aren't good anymore, but they can be ok backups IMO. Just don't give them too many minutes and do not let them take away Dermarr's minutes.

PF is looking good. KT is pretty decent and Sweetney can develope into something really special. Personally, even if Sweetney turns out to be a board guy, I wouldn't feel too bad. I'm thinking a shorter, stouter Rodman with more offense and a bit less rebounding. Maybe a poor man's Brand too. Harrington is decent off the bench.

C is a potential problem. Nazr has good rebounding and offense but weak D. Baker is looking good now but he has a pretty bad history and we don't know if he is staying for next season. Mutumbo is just old now but can be decent in limited minutes.

OVerally, the Knicks aren't really that bad IMO. The problem is that they have a bunch of decent/good role players who are better coming off the bench. Put a star or at least a great palyer on the Knicks with MArbury and this is a pretty good team. Problem was that we traded away so many draft chances in the past years for role players. Mark Jackson and Harrington come into mind. Both were decent, but are better suited to come off the bench instead of starting and using a 1st to get them.


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Truth,you played at SU? When were you there? I worked there 13 years in the Physics dept., right next to Archbold. That would be a riot if I played with you..Certainly you know that just because you gained weight doesn't mean anyone can. Ralph Sampson was probably the biggest example. He ate a tremendous amount of proteins and carbs , plus he lifted with the football players and only got stronger, not bigger. You are also talking with your heart, not your head. You know DJ hasn't shown anything remotely close to what we need and TT has been here only a portion of the season. Lets sprinkle that with the spices of track records, OK? My opinion has basis in fact, while at this point in time, yours is based on hope.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I honestly believe Marbury is a top 3 point guard


This year he's top 4. Kidd, Baron, Cassell > Marbury this year.



> I am not a TT fan/hater but the guy is $%^ talented...You guys are right and wrong..The guy is a braincell away from being an All star...One $%^^^ing brain cell....


Eh, not quite. TT with a braincell I still wouldn't take over Peja Stojakovic, Jamal Mashburn, Carmelo Anthony, Shawn Marion, Andrei Kirilenko, Ron Artest, and every other all-star SF. He just doesn't do enough. Everybody else I just listed can score too. A braincell is not going to make him an elite shooter (Peja, Glen Rice, etc), a good defender (Marion, Artest, Kirilenko, Scottie Pippen, etc), or a guy you can run your offense through (Melo, Mashburn, Vince Carter, Dominique Wilkens, Grant Hill, etc).

One brain cell is not going to drastically alter TT's talent. Maybe the only all-star he'd deserve a spot over is Wally Szczerbiak, who is probably the least deserving non-center to make the team in the last 5 years.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> You know DJ hasn't shown anything remotely close to what we need


i find it so interesting you say that..i think he has shown tremendous POTENTIAL....I think his D really stinks after watching him a bit more,but he has great tools and size...I mean he has come from nowhwere,had a couple of 15 point games,sjown he can hit the 3,and has the ability to take it to the rim and FINISH...

maybe i am nuts,but i really believe the guy has the ability to be a very good NBA player..And apparently,Isiah believes it as well...

Do you remember Roy Danforth??


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Hell yeah...Roy's Runts. Jimmy"don't call me Bug" Williams, Rudy Hackett, Chris Sease, the Lee Bros., Denny Duval. lost to eventual champ Kentucky in what?..'74,'75? They had Rick Roby and Mike Phillips...both 6'10" .....the original twin towers. Did you play for Danforth? I think not as you seem to be younger than that. It would put you at my age or a bit longer in the tooth. Without divulging exactly who you are, were you an Orangeman? Who was one of your fellow players?


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

played JV for them but didnt stick around....were you up there then???we probably played ball at Manly or Archbald....small world huh??


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

wow its refreshing to see some fellow Syracusans around. you guys are before my time, but its still cool.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

are you from syracuse????


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Actually I am from Cortland but I worked there from 85-98. I played some with Reafsnyder, Roe, and Marvin Graves(QB) and shot with Stevie Thompson. JV, huh? When did they let the freshmen start playing varsity? I remember Bill Walton having to play JV ball. Its all good..and you are around my age..no wonder we see eye to eye on so much. Hopefully you will prove to be a better evaluator than I am but I am pretty damn good at spotting players. As you know, talent is one thing and using it is another. That may be where we clash...you see flashes and say it will become consistent. I say..you have no history of consistency and effort so show me.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

i was there way before you!!!!!!!!!In fact my year was the last year of JV ball...Boheim came my second year.....

you are correct...i see flashes of brilliance and i think this guy has what it take..especially with Demmar as he has come back from a broken neck...that speaks volumes about the guy


----------

