# Jordan: I wanted to beat Magic and Bird



## BG7

> Jordan at lake tahoe "I would not have called Larry and Magic and say let's play together. I wanted to beat them."


http://twitter.com/sportsguy33/status/18862436080


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## Wade County

Good for MJ. Not everyone has that crazy competitive streak in them like that. We all know how gracious he was during that HoF speech....


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## Dre

Yeah I mean there's nothing wrong with that at all. 

What people fail to understand is there's nothing wrong with LeBron's logic either.


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## Wade County

I'm genuinely suprised that Lebron put aside his ego to join with Wade and Bosh though. 

People seem to think he's just gonna slip into some Pippen role. He's Lebron James, not Scottie Pippen. Don't get me wrong, I love Scottie - he was one of my favourite players back in the early 90's - but Lebron is a different beast.

It's not like he's going to suddenly be a 19/6/6 guy or something. I expect his stat line to remain pretty much the same.


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## Dre

Reading portions of that SI article I think LeBron actually does want to reform his approach. He says he'd rather be Oscar Robertson than Michael Jordan. I think he's gonna end up being 24/8/8ish.


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## King George

Dre™ said:


> Yeah I mean there's nothing wrong with that at all.
> 
> What people fail to understand is there's nothing wrong with LeBron's logic either.


There is everything wrong with LeBron's logic. He might as well be Mark Madsen as far as I'm concerned.


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## Wade County

What I mean is, he's still the same guy. He hasn't lost any ability. Why would he suddenly become a 2nd fiddle? Ditto for Wade. There's room at the top for both, especially with their willingness to pass.


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## Dre

Yeah I mean as far as impact LeBron will always be the most important player on the court for the Heat..he's just going to play a role that gives the illusion that he's deferring to Wade. 

He's not going to be the same guy who holds the ball for 17 seconds and hoists up a shot, he's going to be much more of a point guard.


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## King George

Dre™ said:


> Reading portions of that SI article I think LeBron actually does want to reform his approach. He says he'd rather be Oscar Robertson than Michael Jordan. I think he's gonna end up being 24/8/8ish.


He wants to be a footnote in history? What a clown! The Big O is an all-time great maybe even the greatest ever, but he doesn't get that much respect.


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## BG7

Ouch!


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## kbdullah

Yes, I'm surprised Lebron is willing to forego being the definitive star. Did he set aside his ego? Not really, they will get a ridiculous amount of coverage being together because now this is bigger than they are, bigger than Lebron, it's hyped to be the next dynasty. Furthermore, when you make the announcement on primetime ESPN, you aren't foregoing any ego, in fact, I think all the bright lights and hype around it was part of the appeal. His points will go down, but I'd expect his assists and percentages to pick up, as usually is the case when a great player gets surrounded by better talent.


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## BG7

kbdullah said:


> Yes, I'm surprised Lebron is willing to forego being the definitive star. Did he set aside his ego? Not really, they will get a ridiculous amount of coverage being together because now this is bigger than they are, bigger than Lebron, it's hyped to be the next dynasty. Furthermore, when you make the announcement on primetime ESPN, you aren't foregoing any ego, in fact, I think all the bright lights and hype around it was part of the appeal. His points will go down, but I'd expect his assists and percentages to pick up, as usually is the case when a great player gets surrounded by better talent.


Lebron is an idiot. He could have went to Chicago or New Jersey and had an equally stacked team without the hit to his legacy.


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## BeeGee

I think the notion that Lebron put his ego aside is completely delusional. There's no such thing as him putting his ego aside. If "The Decision" didn't tell you that, then nothing will. Going to Miami was not some kind of humbling for Lebron, or some sort of "sacrifice" as D-Wade keeps eluding to. It's backwards, because if anything, Lebron's tenure in Cleveland was about sacrifice. Him going to Miami is saying loud and clear, "SCREW THIS, I'M GETTIN' MINE", which is cool. But don't get it twisted up and think that this dude is putting his ego aside. This whole move to Miami wreaks of ego. Heat fans are funny as hell right now.


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## Wade County

Funny thing is, I bet you a 25yr old Kobe Bryant in the same situation as a 25yr old Lebron James probably would've done the whole ESPN crap too. The media fed the 2010 hype machine - the players played up to it. Who comes off worse here?

The fact that you think us Heat fans are delusional or something makes me laugh. Some (I repeat, some) Laker fans aren't liking the idea of a legitimate challenger to the throne they've had the past few years. That's fine - we'll see what happens next season and go from there.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

He wouldn't have left to join another team he would have whined about getting better players on his team.

Jordan is no saint. The only reason people don't call him on his faults is because he won. If LeBron wins nobody will care that he switched teams.


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## Wade County

Where's the rest of the quote also?

"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry (Bird), called up Magic (Johnson) and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,'" Jordan said on Sunday. "But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

Read more: http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_a...wanted_to_play_with_magic_bird/#ixzz0u5ubyOlZ


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## Dre

What does he mean oppurtunity..don't try and save face, with no cap and about 3-4 less teams back then it was even easier for something like this to happen.


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## Nevus

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> He wouldn't have left to join another team he would have whined about getting better players on his team.
> 
> Jordan is no saint. The only reason people don't call him on his faults is because he won. If LeBron wins nobody will care that he switched teams.


Bingo!


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## King George

Wade County said:


> Funny thing is, I bet you a 25yr old Kobe Bryant in the same situation as a 25yr old Lebron James probably would've done the whole ESPN crap too. The media fed the 2010 hype machine - the players played up to it. Who comes off worse here?
> 
> The fact that you think us Heat fans are delusional or something makes me laugh. Some (I repeat, some) Laker fans aren't liking the idea of a legitimate challenger to the throne they've had the past few years. That's fine - we'll see what happens next season and go from there.


This is a lie. Kobe was what 25 when he was a free agent. People crucified him for "holding" L.A. hostage and for forcing them to trade Shaq eventhough it was Shaq eho demanded the trade. So u r wrong.


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## TheDarkPrince

Wade County said:


> I'm genuinely suprised that Lebron put aside his ego to join with Wade and Bosh though.
> 
> People seem to think he's just gonna slip into some Pippen role. He's Lebron James, not Scottie Pippen. Don't get me wrong, I love Scottie - he was one of my favourite players back in the early 90's - but Lebron is a different beast.
> 
> It's not like he's going to suddenly be a 19/6/6 guy or something. I expect his stat line to remain pretty much the same.


You are insane if you think Lebron and Wade will both average around 30 points a game. Someones numbers are coming way down next season.

Bosh 15-17ppg
Wade 22-24ppg
Lebron 20-24ppg


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## King George

Dre™ said:


> What does he mean oppurtunity..don't try and save face, with no cap and about 3-4 less teams back then it was even easier for something like this to happen.


short term deals. He signed like a 8 year 25 million dollar deal back in the day.


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## Dre

He did a press conference. 

If Kobe had the good will to do it and not have to answer so many controversial questions back then he would've too. 

Anybody with the power to hi-jack ESPN is going to do it.


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## Wade County

TheDarkPrince said:


> You are insane if you think Lebron and Wade will both average around 30 points a game. Someones numbers are coming way down next season.
> 
> Bosh 15-17ppg
> Wade 22-24ppg
> Lebron 20-24ppg


Lebron and Wade are too talented to score only 20 a game. Especially with the expected higher efficiency also.

Teams are going to be in serious foul trouble with these three attacking the paint.

Bosh will score more than 15 a game, cmon man.


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## Wade County

King George said:


> This is a lie. Kobe was what 25 when he was a free agent. People crucified him for "holding" L.A. hostage and for forcing them to trade Shaq eventhough it was Shaq eho demanded the trade. So u r wrong.


It was a theoretical answer. My point was more about Kobe's ego at the same age, and saying if he was part of this FA class, at that age, he would probably have done the same thing.


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## Dre

King George said:


> short term deals. He signed like a 8 year 25 million dollar deal back in the day.


That doesn't change the fact that it was possible.


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## TheDarkPrince

Wade County said:


> Lebron and Wade are too talented to score only 20 a game. Especially with the expected higher efficiency also.
> 
> Teams are going to be in serious foul trouble with these three attacking the paint.
> 
> Bosh will score more than 15 a game, cmon man.


Are Heat fans really this crazy? Do you really think Wade, Bosh and Lebron are going to score a combined 80 points a game for an entire season? Has any big 3 ever done this? Their combined numbers will come down, this is fact. Or they will score 130 points every game. Which I seriously doubt.


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## BeeGee

Wade County said:


> Funny thing is, I bet you a 25yr old Kobe Bryant in the same situation as a 25yr old Lebron James probably would've done the whole ESPN crap too. The media fed the 2010 hype machine - the players played up to it. Who comes off worse here?
> 
> The fact that you think us Heat fans are delusional or something makes me laugh. Some (I repeat, some) Laker fans aren't liking the idea of a legitimate challenger to the throne they've had the past few years. That's fine - we'll see what happens next season and go from there.


The fact that you have to use "would've" in an attempt to throw Kobe into this conversation, makes your statement a serious fail. Lebron comes off worse because as much as you wanna use speculation to tell me what Kobe would've done, it's nothing more than speculation. Bron put his clown act in the ESPN archives forever, so I think you know who comes off worse. You're a Heat fan and I get that, so rep ya team. But like I said, some of ya'll are sounding funny right now.

Trust me, I'm not worried about the Miami Heat or anybody. If they win the title, they win it - so be it because they will have earned it. It's hard to get to the top and it's even harder to stay there. But the Lakers have been in the Finals 3 straight seasons and have 2 straight championships. You can probably thank us for getting Lebron as much as any other factor, lol. We'll be ready as usual.


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## Jamel Irief

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> He wouldn't have left to join another team he would have whined about getting better players on his team.
> 
> Jordan is no saint. The only reason people don't call him on his faults is because he won. If LeBron wins nobody will care that he switched teams.


LeBron's "look at me" persona reminds me of a young Shaq. Shaq was able to eventually back it up with rings and everyone shut up.

LeBron will have to do the same thing to silence a lot of his critics.


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## Sir Patchwork

Jordan's situation was just different. People need to get that through their fat heads. He had Pippen after 4 years, and the NBA was at it's worst in the 90's so Jordan didn't have any competition. If Jordan kept getting booted out of the playoffs every year by much better *teams* and his best teammate was BJ Armstrong, damn straight he would have bounced to play with another very good player. 

Jordan was spoiled by circumstance. LeBron had to change his environment in order to create better circumstances.


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## Dre

A lot of the people who are against this decision have different agendas behind their opinions, so I don't really take them too serious.

There's very few credible posters on here that legitimately don't think the Heat were the best option for him (unless it was their team).


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## Tragedy

Wade County said:


> Funny thing is, I bet you a 25yr old Kobe Bryant in the same situation as a 25yr old Lebron James probably would've done the whole ESPN crap too. The media fed the 2010 hype machine - the players played up to it. Who comes off worse here?
> 
> The fact that you think us Heat fans are delusional or something makes me laugh. Some (I repeat, some) Laker fans aren't liking the idea of a legitimate challenger to the throne they've had the past few years. That's fine - we'll see what happens next season and go from there.


Why didn't he do a special in 2004?


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## Wade County

Read the post. 2004 wasn't the most ballyhooed FA period of alltime. There wasn't a market for "specials".

Kobe at 25 was just as much an ego as Lebron.


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## Wade County

TheDarkPrince said:


> Are Heat fans really this crazy? Do you really think Wade, Bosh and Lebron are going to score a combined 80 points a game for an entire season? Has any big 3 ever done this? Their combined numbers will come down, this is fact. Or they will score 130 points every game. Which I seriously doubt.


Again, read what I am saying.

Of course their numbers are going to come down. Do I think theyll drop to 20 a game? No.

Wade - 25/5/6
Lebron - 25/8/8
Bosh - 18/10

I think that is realistic. No?


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## TheDarkPrince

Sir Patchwork said:


> Jordan's situation was just different. People need to get that through their fat heads. He had Pippen after 4 years, and the NBA was at it's worst in the 90's so Jordan didn't have any competition. If Jordan kept getting booted out of the playoffs every year by much better *teams* and his best teammate was BJ Armstrong, damn straight he would have bounced to play with another very good player.
> 
> Jordan was spoiled by circumstance. LeBron had to change his environment in order to create better circumstances.


Pippen was called soft, and was far from a star his first 3-4 years in the NBA. He was good, but nowhere near as good as you make him sound right out of college. And the NBA in the 90's was far.....far stronger then it is now.


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## King George

Wade County said:


> Read the post. 2004 wasn't the most ballyhooed FA period of alltime. There wasn't a market for "specials".
> 
> Kobe at 25 was just as much an ego as Lebron.


He was the most sought after free agent. He could've gone to the Bulls, Clippers, Lakers, Bobcats whoever wherevere. He could've held a remedial press conference if he wanted to.


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## Dre

Tragedy said:


> Why didn't he do a special in 2004?


The best he could do was that press conference. He was a villain at that point, doing a special would make it even worse. 

The Kobe-Shaq incident, Colorado, him snitching on Shaq, all the stories starting to pop out..it wouldn't be the lovefest LeBron's decision was.


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## King George

TheDarkPrince said:


> Pippen was called soft, and was far from a star his first 3-4 years in the NBA. He was good, but nowhere near as good as you make him sound right out of college. And the NBA in the 90's was far.....far stronger then it is now.


No, no, it's not. Chicago's biggest competition was the Knicks which was pretty much comprised of CBA and USBL players.


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## Sir Patchwork

TheDarkPrince said:


> Pippen was called soft, and was far from a star his first 3-4 years in the NBA.


He was an all-star his 3rd year in the league (1989-1990) and on the cusp in his 2nd year. Good try though. 



TheDarkPrince said:


> And the NBA in the 90's was far.....far stronger then it is now.


The league after the Celtics/Lakers dynasties died wasn't half as good as it is now.


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## Tragedy

Wade County said:


> Read the post. 2004 wasn't the most ballyhooed FA period of alltime. There wasn't a market for "specials".
> 
> Kobe at 25 was just as much an ego as Lebron.


I have a feeling that Lebron would've done the special regardless.


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## Wade County

For sure, not saying he wouldn't have. Just saying Kobe at the same age in the same situation would've too.


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## King George

Wade County said:


> For sure, not saying he wouldn't have. Just saying Kobe at the same age in the same situation would've too.


He was in the same situation and didn't. What don't u get? I mean seriously? In 2004 Kobe Bryant was a freee agent he was 25 years old and he did not hold a silly presss conference to announce his decision.


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## TheDarkPrince

King George said:


> No, no, it's not. Chicago's biggest competition was the Knicks which was pretty much comprised of CBA and USBL players.


Are you serious? The Knicks would be a 60+ win team in today's NBA, easily. The Rockets were better then any team (outside of LA) currently in the NBA. Throw in the Jazz, Suns, Cavs, Sonics of the 90's and they would all dominate the current NBA.

I can't believe you are this naive, dude.


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## King George

TheDarkPrince said:


> Are you serious? The Knicks would be a 60+ win team in today's NBA, easily. The Rockets were better then any team (outside of LA) currently in the NBA. Throw in the Jazz, Suns, Cavs, Sonics of the 90's and they would all dominate the current NBA.
> 
> I can't believe you are this naive, dude.


A 60 win team with no rings like the Cavs, right?! Aha!!


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## f22egl

King George said:


> A 60 win team with no rings like the Cavs, right?! Aha!!


Except that they actually won games in the Finals.


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## Duck

The legion of LeBron worshippers flocking to put out the fires at every turn is fantastic entertainment for all!


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## TheDarkPrince

King George said:


> A 60 win team with no rings like the Cavs, right?! Aha!!


The would have made it to several NBA finals coming out of today's weak ass eastern conference. IMO, they could have won at least 1 title if not more in today's NBA.


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## afobisme

Wade County said:


> Read the post. 2004 wasn't the most ballyhooed FA period of alltime. There wasn't a market for "specials".
> 
> Kobe at 25 was just as much an ego as Lebron.


you're just spouting bull****, saying things that are irrelevant. do you also forget that lebron was the one who proposed the idea to espn? and kobe didn't. these things are facts, and not conjecture/speculation.

i don't like lebron, to be honest. him going to miami is fine to me, it's just going to hurt his legacy. it just means he won't be seen as a jordan. my personal problem is how he got to miami.


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## Wade County

The Knicks of the 90's would've been suspended for the most part in todays NBA.


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## Dre

I don't even know how the Knicks came up..but for the most part, a good team is going to be a good team in any era. Good basketball is just that. 

The only thing that hurts in these dream scenarios is back in the 50s and such Centers were like 6-5. But any time beyond then, whatever a team was in one era they'd more than likely be the same in another. The Knicks would be like the Pistons of the aughties.


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## TheDarkPrince

Wade County said:


> The Knicks of the 90's would've been suspended for the most part in todays NBA.


75% of the NBA back then as well. The NBA was plain and simply tougher then it is now. Way too much flopping, whinning and crying about touch fouls to the refs these days.


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## Wade County

afobisme said:


> you're just spouting bull****, saying things that are irrelevant. do you also forget that lebron was the one who proposed the idea to espn? and kobe didn't. these things are facts, and not conjecture/speculation.
> 
> i don't like lebron, to be honest. him going to miami is fine to me, it's just going to hurt his legacy. it just means he won't be seen as a jordan. my personal problem is how he got to miami.


What i'm saying is conjecture and theory. I'm not saying any of it is fact. I'm not saying Kobe went to ESPN...i'm imagining what a 25yr old KB WOULD'VE done in that same situation.

People take things way out of context here sometimes. Read what i'm saying - not what you're putting into my mouth.


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## f22egl

Charles Barkely said the same thing. He said when he was in his prime, there was no way that he would ever team up and try to play with Jordan, Bird, or Magic.


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## Wade County

That ended well for Barkley, didnt it?


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## Dre

:laugh: u trrble.


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## TheDarkPrince

Wade County said:


> That ended well for Barkley, didnt it?


Hall of Fame
NBA MVP
one of the the greatest PF'S ever

That's ending badly?


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## Wade County

The asterisk next to his name has, and always will be, the fact that he never was a champion.

I love Barkley, don't get me wrong, but his attitude is what got in the way of what could've been. Maybe if he jumped ship earlier, rather than when he joined the Rockets near the end of his career - he'd have a 'chip.


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## Attila

Michael has Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson to help him win all those championships. LeBron had Larry Hughes/Mo Williams and Mike Brown. How many rings would Jordan have if he had played for those Cleveland team?


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## John

Attila said:


> Michael has Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson to help him win all those championships. LeBron had Larry Hughes/Mo Williams and Mike Brown. How many rings would Jordan have if he had played for those Cleveland team?


Well, he wont have Pippen and Phil Jackson there with the Heat as well. What will you say?


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## Wade County

S'ok John - Penny's coming back to play with the Heat again. There's his Scottie...:laugh:


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## Dre

Pat Riley and Wade is a pretty good contingency plan.


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## TheDarkPrince

Wade County said:


> The asterisk next to his name has, and always will be, the fact that he never was a champion.
> 
> I love Barkley, don't get me wrong, but his attitude is what got in the way of what could've been. Maybe if he jumped ship earlier, rather than when he joined the Rockets near the end of his career - he'd have a 'chip.


A lot of great players have that asterisk by their names. Does that make them any less great. Adam friggin Morrison has to rings, and Karl Malone and John Stockton have 0. Will anyone really remember Morrison in 10 years?


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## Wade County

You know what i'm saying, don't construe it like that.

The same people who are saying having no ring hasn't sullied Barkley and Malone's legacies are saying the fact Lebron hasn't gone one hurts his.


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## Game3525

That is because Lebron is being discussed as a top ten player ever, no knock on Chuck or Malone, but they weren't. When it comes to the top ten, rings play a factor.


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## TheDarkPrince

Wade County said:


> You know what i'm saying, don't construe it like that.
> 
> The same people who are saying having no ring hasn't sullied Barkley and Malone's legacies are saying the fact Lebron hasn't gone one hurts his.


Lebron is only 25 years old. Who says if he stayed in Cleveland that he wouldn't have won one? People say it will hurt his legacy because he gave up in Cleveland. It won't matter to Lebron "If" he wins a ring in Miami. But many think his legacy has already been tarnished because he bailed so soon in Cleveland.


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## Wade County

But that works both ways. If he doesn't win - he's Steve Nash. A 2 time MVP, HoF'er, and no rings.

If he bails and wins rings with a superior cast, but tarnishes his image because of the way he went about it, then people will still have the fact he couldn't get it done in Cleveland.

Basically, damned if you do and damned if you don't.


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## Game3525

TheDarkPrince said:


> Lebron is only 25 years old. Who says if he stayed in Cleveland that he wouldn't have won one? *People say it will hurt his legacy because he gave up in Cleveland. It won't matter to Lebron "If" he wins a ring in Miami. But many think his legacy has already been tarnished because he bailed so soon in Cleveland*.


It is not evening the bailing out on Cleveland, if had left to gone to Chicago or New York things would be much differant, it is the fact he went to Wade's team, who is tier one player just like him. Whether it is right or wrong, people may hold that against him.


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## HB

I co-sign Mr Jordan's logic


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## afobisme

ahh the nba has become so polarizing. the great divide comes down to lebron fans, lebron haters, and indifferent/objective people; and it seems there are more objective/unbias people who are saying negative things (hence more lebron haters than before).


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## f22egl

Wade County said:


> That ended well for Barkley, didnt it?


Charles Barkely on that response:

"But as from a competitive standpoint, as much respect as I've got for Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan, I wanted to beat those guys, I didn't want to play with them. Well people can say "the most important thing is winning championships'. Yeah! *You can brag a lot more when you beat other great players instead of playing with them.* Michael Jordan got greater satisfaction than beating the Pistons and the Lakers. Think about Kobe Bryant; Kobe got greater satisfaction when he won a championship without Shaq as the #1 guy."

"I don't think in the history of sports a guy who won back to back [MVPs] and was the best player in the game that a player left his home"


Barkely did concede that LeBron had the right to go to where he wants.


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## 77AJ

there will only be one mike regardless if bron stayed in cleveland. makes sense why the old heads wouldn't like the move, they come from an era that was more conventional and guys stayed long term for the most part. as I've stated many times, the league has changed, teams have changed, and the players have changed. you can no longer take stock in players and teams because they work for the NBA organization in your city. those days are over. now a fan needs to understand that when they watch the nba and players and pick and choose who you want to cheer for based on their performances and personalities, nothing else really needs to required.

with technology and the new trends you can sit on your backside and watch any team or player via your computer or television. no longer are your shackled down to only seeing a few games on cbs/nbc/abc and when your home team hosts a basketball game. now a days we all can watch everything and everyone. so pick your brand of basketball, your brand of team, and brand of player, enjoy it, since after all you're paying for it.


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## seifer0406

The thing is Lebron wasn't trying to beat Bosh and Wade. MJ's comparison would make sense if Lebron joined forces with Dwight or Kobe or even the Celtics. This is a case where 2 guys that were on teams that weren't contenders and likely won't become contenders because of various reasons. It wasn't like Lebron joined a team that he can't beat or had a hard time beating.


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## Wade County

Underrated point, and one I honestly hadn't thought about. Good call.


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## f22egl

seifer0406 said:


> The thing is Lebron wasn't trying to beat Bosh and Wade. MJ's comparison would make sense if Lebron joined forces with Dwight or Kobe or even the Celtics. This is a case where 2 guys that were on teams that weren't contenders and likely won't become contenders because of various reasons. It wasn't like Lebron joined a team that he can't beat or had a hard time beating.


The thing is if LeBron didn't join Wade in Miami, Miami probably would be contenders with Wade/Bosh and whoever else they would have gotten with that cap space. And let's not put Dwight Howard's career over Wade's who does have a ring and a finals mvp.


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## seifer0406

f22egl said:


> The thing is if LeBron didn't join Wade in Miami, Miami probably would be contenders with Wade/Bosh and whoever else they would have gotten with that cap space. And let's not put Dwight Howard's career over Wade's who does have a ring and a finals mvp.


So if Lebron announced his decision a day before Bosh announced his everything would be fine? Sounds like you're just busting his balls.

My main point is there wasn't a rivalry between Lebron/Wade/Bosh. Lebron owned both of them in match ups. MJ is implying that this is a case of "If you can't beat them, join them" but his comparison is off base. Lebron left his team so he can join a better team, which is the same thing that a lot of players have done in the past.


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## f22egl

LeBron owned Wade? Wade's supporting cast was perhaps the worst in the league. Give Wade a similar supporting cast that LeBron has had the first couple of years and you would have a different story, which was going to be the case with Bosh going to Miami. BTW, Wade owned LeBron from 03-06 by your logic.


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## seifer0406

f22egl said:


> LeBron owned Wade? Wade's supporting cast was perhaps the worst in the league. Give Wade a similar supporting cast that LeBron has had the first couple of years and you would have a different story, which was going to be the case with Bosh going to Miami.


That wasn't what I meant. Wade as a player is on the same level as Lebron but the Cavs have been a much better team than the Heat/Raptors at least in recent years. There isn't a Cavs/Raptors rivalry or a Cavs/Heat rivalry that I know of.


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## John

Wade County said:


> S'ok John - Penny's coming back to play with the Heat again. There's his Scottie...:laugh:


I like this new age fan. Yeah, I would be an immediate Heat homer if Penny is with the heat now. I at least admit I am, but yourself?


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## seifer0406

Guys like f22egl are making things way too difficult for Lebron and the guys that tried to recruit him. Can you imagine what it would be like if things went by his logic?

So in order for Lebron to get out of Cleveland while maintaining his legacy/respect/dignity, he must go to a team that's

A) Better than the Cavs team without Lebron or else it would defeat the purpose of going there

B) A lot weaker than the current Cavs team *with* Lebron or else Lebron would be joining a possible rival and be mocked by the likes of MJ

Imagine if you're Pat Riley trying to build a team like that.

"Listen boys, we're going to present Lebron with a situation that's better than all of his other options but not good to the point where he gets mocked. We're going to give him the 2nd best chance for him to win a championship and it'll have to be 2nd best because he will lose his legacy if he chooses the best possible chance. We're going to pair him up with Wade and Bosh, but in order to make things more difficult we'll sign guys like Ricky Davis, Stephon Marbury, and trade for Eddy Curry. If the Wizards buy out Arenas we'll get him too and see if he shoots up the clubhouse. The fans are the most important and god forbid we piss off MJ"


----------



## 77AJ

seifer0406 said:


> The thing is Lebron wasn't trying to beat Bosh and Wade. MJ's comparison would make sense if Lebron joined forces with Dwight or Kobe or even the Celtics. This is a case where 2 guys that were on teams that weren't contenders and likely won't become contenders because of various reasons. It wasn't like Lebron joined a team that he can't beat or had a hard time beating.


Your missing the point. Jordan could of put any string of great players names together. All he's saying is that other superstars that had established them selves individually in their teams city were his greatest competition. Wether it was Ewing and the Knicks, Drexler and the Blazers, Magic and the Lakers, Zeke and the Pistons, etc etc That's all mike is pointing out. If Bron had teamed up with any team that has three legit top 10 players on their team (including bron) it's going to be looked at as creating new allegiances and folding the fort at your previous out post. Something old heads just didn't do. like I said it's pretty clear why players of Mikes generation for the most part feel that way. I do take exception with Sir Charles though considering he did ring chase at the end of his career.


----------



## afobisme

seifer0406 said:


> So if Lebron announced his decision a day before Bosh announced his everything would be fine? Sounds like you're just busting his balls.
> 
> My main point is there wasn't a rivalry between Lebron/Wade/Bosh. Lebron owned both of them in match ups. MJ is implying that this is a case of "If you can't beat them, join them" but his comparison is off base. Lebron left his team so he can join a better team, which is the same thing that a lot of players have done in the past.


i think you have somewhat of a point, but i don't remember any mvp's leaving their teams (not recently).


----------



## seifer0406

23AJ said:


> Your missing the point. Jordan could of put any string of great players names together. All he's saying is that other superstars that had established them selves individually in their teams city were his greatest competition. Wether it was Ewing and the Knicks, Drexler and the Blazers, Magic and the Lakers, Zeke and the Pistons, etc etc That's all mike is pointing out. If Bron had teamed up with any team that has three legit top 10 players on their team (including bron) it's going to be looked at as creating new allegiances and folding the fort at your previous out post. Something old heads just didn't do. like I said it's pretty clear why players of Mikes generation for the most part feel that way. I do take exception with Sir Charles though considering he did ring chase at the end of his career.


All I can say is lucky for the elite stars in MJ's generation, they didn't get stuck in bad situations where they had trouble winning.

I understand perfectly what MJ meant, I just thought that his example was off base. MJ feels that things are too easy for Lebron now that he's in Miami. I understand that. However that doesn't mean that Lebron took the "Can't beat them so I'll join them attitude." This is the extra angle that MJ added by using this example and it's not justified in my opinion.


----------



## seifer0406

afobisme said:


> i think you have somewhat of a point, but i don't remember any mvp's leaving their teams (not recently).


KG. You know the guy who went to Boston to form a big 3, the exact same thing that Lebron did.

AI is another guy who left because the Sixers sucked.


----------



## Dre

Shaq went to the Heat and should've won MVP that first year.


----------



## afobisme

seifer0406 said:


> KG. You know the guy who went to Boston to form a big 3, the exact same thing that Lebron did.
> 
> AI is another guy who left because the Sixers sucked.


when AI left, he wasn't MVP. kg wasn't either. lebron just this year won the mvp title, and most people will say he's the best player in the league. kg was not, and AI wasn't either. oh and remember that KG stuck it out with the franchise year after each sucking year. he was loyal, almost to a fault.


----------



## seifer0406

ok, so Lebron is the first *defending* MVP to leave his team. Let me add that to the list of things that Lebron must do to preserve his legacy.

Team

A) Better than the Cavs team without Lebron or else it would defeat the purpose of going there

B) A lot weaker than the current Cavs team with Lebron or else Lebron would be joining a possible rival and be mocked by the likes of MJ

Self

A) Must have an off year and lose in the MVP race. Major injury if possible to avoid extra attention.

I think I've found a new hobby. By the end of the summer I will have a list of all the things that Lebron should've done before leaving Cleveland.


----------



## Wade County

KG admitted as much also though. He, in a nut shell, told Lebron after the Celts knocked out the Cavs "Don't do what I did and waste your prime playing for teams that aren't gonna win 'chips".


----------



## Wade County

John said:


> I like this new age fan. Yeah, I would be an immediate Heat homer if Penny is with the heat now. I at least admit I am, but yourself?


I'm a Heat fan, where have I made that a secret?

I've been a fan for well over a decade, also...


----------



## 77AJ

seifer0406 said:


> All I can say is lucky for the elite stars in MJ's generation, they didn't get stuck in bad situations where they had trouble winning.
> 
> I understand perfectly what MJ meant, I just thought that his example was off base. MJ feels that things are too easy for Lebron now that he's in Miami. I understand that. However that doesn't mean that Lebron took the "Can't beat them so I'll join them attitude." This is the extra angle that MJ added by using this example and it's not justified in my opinion.


Ever heard of Hakeem Olajuwon ? Didn't think so, but let me just say he was in the exact same situation as LBJ. However Dream never had any all stars or past legends on his initial Championship team. Dude just stayed the course. There was just a different make up and way the game was played. Jordan never took shots at Bron in Cleveland, and isn't now. He was asked his opinion, and it seems to be very cohesive with history.


----------



## Hibachi!

The funny thing is that if it was reversed and Bosh and Wade came to Cleveland it would be heralded as getting LeBron some help and a masterful GM move. If Dunan said he wanted to join the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe you think they would have said "Naw man I'm trying to beat you." If Magic said he was going to go to Chicago you think MJ would have said "No way I'm a competitor." 

If it's reversed it's no big deal. If MJ was on a team with no help he'd bitch about not getting help. Then he gets help and all of a sudden he's a loyal winner. But that's because he got arguably the best rebounder of all time in Dennis Rodman and a top 50 player of all time in Scottie Pippen. Same thing with Kobe. If they don't get the ring then they are losers and loyal to a fault like KG. By time KG leaves everyone goes "It's about time you left." But now look. He won a ring but is barely going to have 3 shots at it. 

If you stay and get great players then you're a great, loyal, clutch competitor. But if you leave to play with other great players then you're a pussy that can't win on his own. What a joke.


----------



## seifer0406

23AJ said:


> Ever heard of Hakeem Olajuwon ? Didn't think so, but let me just say he was in the exact same situation as LBJ. However Dream never had any all stars or past legends on his initial Championship team. Dude just stayed the course. There was just a different make up and way the game was played. Jordan never took shots at Bron in Cleveland, and isn't now. He was asked his opinion, and it seems to be very cohesive with history.


Try to convince Kobe/Dwight/Pierce to play 2 years of Triple A ball and I'm sure Lebron would gladly stay in Cleveland.

Not trying to diminish what Hakeem has done as he's my favorite center of all time, even he has said in interviews that MJ leaving gave everyone a chance to win. Had it not for that he would just be another guy who was good but never won.


----------



## gi0rdun

Ok Magic and Bird do not even compare to Wade and Bosh.


----------



## seifer0406

Hibachi! said:


> The funny thing is that if it was reversed and Bosh and Wade came to Cleveland it would be heralded as getting LeBron some help and a masterful GM move. If Dunan said he wanted to join the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe you think they would have said "Naw man I'm trying to beat you." If Magic said he was going to go to Chicago you think MJ would have said "No way I'm a competitor."
> 
> If it's reversed it's no big deal. If MJ was on a team with no help he'd bitch about not getting help. Then he gets help and all of a sudden he's a loyal winner. But that's because he got arguably the best rebounder of all time in Dennis Rodman and a top 50 player of all time in Scottie Pippen. Same thing with Kobe. If they don't get the ring then they are losers and loyal to a fault like KG. By time KG leaves everyone goes "It's about time you left." But now look. He won a ring but is barely going to have 3 shots at it.
> 
> If you stay and get great players then you're a great, loyal, clutch competitor. But if you leave to play with other great players then you're a pussy that can't win on his own. What a joke.


Great point, post of the thread.


----------



## Attila

John said:


> Well, he wont have Pippen and Phil Jackson there with the Heat as well. What will you say?


 My point is that Jordan might not have won crap if he was stuck on garbage teams. Jordan won many championships with a great cast while Lebron hasn't won any with a so-so cast. I don't fault Lebron for wanting to win.


----------



## afobisme

Hibachi! said:


> The funny thing is that if it was reversed and Bosh and Wade came to Cleveland it would be heralded as getting LeBron some help and a masterful GM move. If Dunan said he wanted to join the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe you think they would have said "Naw man I'm trying to beat you." If Magic said he was going to go to Chicago you think MJ would have said "No way I'm a competitor."
> 
> If it's reversed it's no big deal. If MJ was on a team with no help he'd bitch about not getting help. Then he gets help and all of a sudden he's a loyal winner. But that's because he got arguably the best rebounder of all time in Dennis Rodman and a top 50 player of all time in Scottie Pippen. Same thing with Kobe. If they don't get the ring then they are losers and loyal to a fault like KG. By time KG leaves everyone goes "It's about time you left." But now look. He won a ring but is barely going to have 3 shots at it.
> 
> If you stay and get great players then you're a great, loyal, clutch competitor. But if you leave to play with other great players then you're a pussy that can't win on his own. What a joke.


here's a fact about "ifs": they never happened.

and wade/bosh were not considered by most to be the absolute best player in the league. that title belongs to lebron. here's a quote to what barkley said:



> "Let me just tell you this," Barkley said. "Mike and I are in 100 percent agreement on this. *If you're the two-time defending NBA MVP*, you don't leave anywhere. They come to you. That's ridiculous.


----------



## 77AJ

Attila said:


> My point is that Jordan might not have won crap if he was stuck on garbage teams. Jordan won many championships with a great cast while Lebron hasn't won any with a so-so cast. I don't fault Lebron for wanting to win.


well that may be true, you're also using 20/20 hindsight bias. during this season, and last season when the Cavs were 60 plus game winners, everyone considered LBJ to have teams specifically built around his talents, from three point shooters to kick the ball out to on his drives and doubles, great rebounding and defending bigs, and a competent pg to help run the show. it was only after the dwight howard magic, and boston green machine this recent post season knocked out the cavs did people really begin to question the cavs team as a whole. 

in truth bron had a very deep team with some former all stars and current ones, and a hall of famer, but it wasn't enough simply put. and add a few lebron james stinker games in the mix, and cleveland fail to the eastern conference champions two straight post seasons. that said obviously having three top 10 players in the game on one team should make the heat the prohibitive favorites to win it all this year. however we all know lebron has had his finals championship ticket stamped by fans , media, and corporations for many years running now. next season can't come fast enough.


----------



## seifer0406

lol that's why Barkley wants to be a GM but will never be one. He clearly doesn't understand the salary cap. Even if he did I doubt he knows how many 0s there are in a million and how to add them together.


----------



## Dre

And just how is anyone going to go to Cleveland with no money or tradeable assets?

Bosh didn't even wanna go to Cleveland in a sign and trade.


----------



## Dre

seifer0406 said:


> lol that's why Barkley wants to be a GM but will never be one. He clearly doesn't understand the salary cap. Even if he did I doubt he knows how many 0s there are in a million and how to add them together.


lol @ him getting the Suns job, telling Nash "don't worry they're coming" then sitting on his ass eating enchiladas with 3 phones in front of him for 3 years.


----------



## afobisme

seifer0406 said:


> lol that's why Barkley wants to be a GM but will never be one. He clearly doesn't understand the salary cap. Even if he did I doubt he knows how many 0s there are in a million and how to add them together.


i think he meant it in a different context. but "they" he's not specifically referring to wade/bosh. he's talking about other good players. that's what i think, at least.


----------



## seifer0406

afobisme said:


> i think he meant it in a different context. but "they" he's not specifically referring to wade/bosh. he's talking about other good players. that's what i think, at least.


Maybe in the context where a salary cap and bad contracts don't exist. Because the Cavs would still have problems getting good players by offering Antawn Jamison and Mo Williams.

There is no way in hell the Cavs can duplicate what the Heat has done for Lebron. Chuck might not understand that but you should.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Hibachi! said:


> The funny thing is that if it was reversed and Bosh and Wade came to Cleveland it would be heralded as getting LeBron some help and a masterful GM move. If Dunan said he wanted to join the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe you think they would have said "Naw man I'm trying to beat you." If Magic said he was going to go to Chicago you think MJ would have said "No way I'm a competitor."
> 
> If it's reversed it's no big deal. If MJ was on a team with no help he'd bitch about not getting help. Then he gets help and all of a sudden he's a loyal winner. But that's because he got arguably the best rebounder of all time in Dennis Rodman and a top 50 player of all time in Scottie Pippen. Same thing with Kobe. If they don't get the ring then they are losers and loyal to a fault like KG. By time KG leaves everyone goes "It's about time you left." But now look. He won a ring but is barely going to have 3 shots at it.
> 
> If you stay and get great players then you're a great, loyal, clutch competitor. But if you leave to play with other great players then you're a pussy that can't win on his own. What a joke.


Exactly right. All this crap is much ado about nothing. Jordan was *lucky* that Pippen came along (and later Grant/Rodman, etc) and the NBA hit a valley in the 90's. All of this "he's too competitive" nonsense would work against him when he is so competitive that losing in the 1st round starts getting old and he wants to win. That's what being competitive is, wanting to win. Losing time after time will piss off someone as competitive as Jordan. 

LeBron would have been fine in Cleveland with a top 30 player of all-time playing with him, in addition to a fringe all-star and a collection of roleplayers after that. They didn't. He bolted to a better franchise to play with his (more talented) friends. 

People can get all their LeBron hate in this summer. Won't be much room for it in the coming years.


----------



## Blue

Jordan & Phil built Pippen, into what he became. It was a process. LeBron is pushing the easy button by joining the 2nd best player in his era. A ready made future top 30 player in Wade, plus another top 10 current player in Bosh. Team is already more loaded than Jordan's Bulls when mentioning M&M and Haslem. I dont mind him leaving Cleveland, but you cant act like the dude didn't push the easy button...


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Blue Magic said:


> Jordan & Phil built Pippen, into what he became. It was a process. LeBron is pushing the easy button by joining the 2nd best player in his era. A ready made future top 30 player in Wade, plus another top 10 current player in Bosh. Team is already more loaded than Jordan's Bulls when mentioning M&M and Haslem. I dont mind him leaving Cleveland, but you cant act like the dude didn't push the easy button...


LeBron made it easier on himself by signing with the team that will give him the best chance to win titles, and Jordan was lucky that he had homegrown gems in Chicago. Cool. Who cares? It doesn't make a damn bit of difference how great of players they are. Everybody has different circumances they need to deal with. It's their basketball ability that matters.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Hibachi! said:


> The funny thing is that if it was reversed and Bosh and Wade came to Cleveland it would be heralded as getting LeBron some help and a masterful GM move. If Dunan said he wanted to join the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe you think they would have said "Naw man I'm trying to beat you." If Magic said he was going to go to Chicago you think MJ would have said "No way I'm a competitor."
> 
> If it's reversed it's no big deal. If MJ was on a team with no help he'd bitch about not getting help. Then he gets help and all of a sudden he's a loyal winner. But that's because he got arguably the best rebounder of all time in Dennis Rodman and a top 50 player of all time in Scottie Pippen. Same thing with Kobe. If they don't get the ring then they are losers and loyal to a fault like KG. By time KG leaves everyone goes "It's about time you left." But now look. He won a ring but is barely going to have 3 shots at it.
> 
> If you stay and get great players then you're a great, loyal, clutch competitor. But if you leave to play with other great players then you're a pussy that can't win on his own. What a joke.


In your Jordan and Lakers examples you speak of great players joining their team. You also speak of Lebron getting Bosh and Wade on his team.

True nobody would of said anything critical, just like no one is speaking ill of Wade for accepting great players on HIS team.

Wade's team!


----------



## Spaceman Spiff

Jordan would have smacked the **** out of guys like Mo Williams for completely disappearing in the playoffs. 

I see no fault in Lebron joining Bosh and Wade(only the manner in which it was done). No great player has ever done it by himself or with teammates that disappear constantly. Look at guys like Dominique, Iverson, Grant Hill(Pistons), T-Mac(Magic), KG..... they were basically one man shows. KG made his move late but ultimately became successful. T-Mac and Hill are a slightly different case being they were both cursed with the injury bug after moving on. But these are(were) all great players who were criticized one way or another for not being a winner. Lebron is not going down that path.

If Lebron stays in Cleveland he's criticized for not winning. He moves on and he's criticized for joining better teammates. As Hibachi said nobody would say **** if better teammates joined him. It's simply not fair to criticize him for doing what he thinks is best for his career.


----------



## hroz

LeBron 25 ppg
Wade 23 ppg
Bosh 17 ppg

Thats in games they all play together. If there are injuries those numbers will rise.


----------



## King George

Attila said:


> My point is that Jordan might not have won crap if he was stuck on garbage teams. Jordan won many championships with a great cast while Lebron hasn't won any with a so-so cast. I don't fault Lebron for wanting to win.


How can they get better if they change the roster every freakin year to appease LeFraud? Then LeLoser quits on them.


----------



## kflo

23AJ said:


> Ever heard of Hakeem Olajuwon ? Didn't think so, but let me just say he was in the exact same situation as LBJ. However Dream never had any all stars or past legends on his initial Championship team. Dude just stayed the course. There was just a different make up and way the game was played. Jordan never took shots at Bron in Cleveland, and isn't now. He was asked his opinion, and it seems to be very cohesive with history.


hakeem had yearly issues with the rockets front office. he did alot of complaining in the early 90s.


----------



## kflo

Blue Magic said:


> Jordan & Phil built Pippen, into what he became. It was a process. LeBron is pushing the easy button by joining the 2nd best player in his era. A ready made future top 30 player in Wade, plus another top 10 current player in Bosh. Team is already more loaded than Jordan's Bulls when mentioning M&M and Haslem. I dont mind him leaving Cleveland, but you cant act like the dude didn't push the easy button...


it's amazing that jordan and phil built pippen. amazing also that they were never able to recreate that. pippen was their lone success in building a top 30 player. phil is still trying. so is mj. they must have worked extra hard on scottie.


----------



## kflo

King George said:


> How can they get better if they change the roster every freakin year to appease LeFraud? Then LeLoser quits on them.


they should have built around hughes! or booz! or wally! or........


----------



## TheDarkPrince

People keep say Jordan had "great" players around him. Outside of Pippen, everyone else who played with Jordan were career journey men.

First 3 peat team

C Bill Cartwright - good defender, decent jump shooter, was near the end of his career when he was traded to the Bulls. 

PF Horace Grant - good defender, great hustle guy who did all the dirty work.

SF Scottie Pippen - outstanding defender, good second option on offense. 

PG John Paxson - great shooter, so-so defender was in his twilight when the bulls started winning titles

Those players were good, but I would not say star studded by a long shot.


Second 3 peat squad

C Luc Longley - Big guy, ok post game, was a foul magnet.

PF Dennis Rodman - great rebounder, great defender, could not score to save his life.

SF Scottie Pippen - (same as above)

PG Ron Harper - good defender, so-so scorer, was in his twilight during the Bulls last run.

special mention goes to Toni Kukoc off of the bench.

Once again good players, but future hall of fame guys? Outside of Scottie the rest were just good, or serviceable.


----------



## Floods

kflo said:


> they should have built around hughes! or booz! or wally! or........


How can you possibly make excuses for not winning with Drew Gooden, Big Z, and Daniel Gibson? LEFRAUD LOL


----------



## kflo

TheDarkPrince said:


> People keep say Jordan had "great" players around him. Outside of Pippen, everyone else who played with Jordan were career journey men.
> 
> First 3 peat team
> 
> C Bill Cartwright - good defender, decent jump shooter, was near the end of his career when he was traded to the Bulls.
> 
> PF Horace Grant - good defender, great hustle guy who did all the dirty work.
> 
> SF Scottie Pippen - outstanding defender, good second option on offense.
> 
> PG John Paxson - great shooter, so-so defender was in his twilight when the bulls started winning titles
> 
> Those players were good, but I would not say star studded by a long shot.
> 
> 
> Second 3 peat squad
> 
> C Luc Longley - Big guy, ok post game, was a foul magnet.
> 
> PF Dennis Rodman - great rebounder, great defender, could not score to save his life.
> 
> SF Scottie Pippen - (same as above)
> 
> PG Ron Harper - good defender, so-so scorer, was in his twilight during the Bulls last run.
> 
> special mention goes to Toni Kukoc off of the bench.
> 
> Once again good players, but future hall of fame guys? Outside of Scottie the rest were just good, or serviceable.


kinda silly to say "except for arguably one of the top 30-40 players ever, they really only had one other near all-star". they did win 55 games without jordan.


----------



## seifer0406

The day Jeff Mcinnis left the Cavs the dream was over.


----------



## O2K

Hibachi! said:


> The funny thing is that if it was reversed and Bosh and Wade came to Cleveland it would be heralded as getting LeBron some help and a masterful GM move. *If Dunan said he wanted to join the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe you think they would have said "Naw man I'm trying to beat you." *If Magic said he was going to go to Chicago you think MJ would have said "No way I'm a competitor."
> 
> If it's reversed it's no big deal. If MJ was on a team with no help he'd bitch about not getting help. Then he gets help and all of a sudden he's a loyal winner. But that's because he got arguably the best rebounder of all time in Dennis Rodman and a top 50 player of all time in Scottie Pippen. Same thing with Kobe. If they don't get the ring then they are losers and loyal to a fault like KG. By time KG leaves everyone goes "It's about time you left." But now look. He won a ring but is barely going to have 3 shots at it.
> 
> If you stay and get great players then you're a great, loyal, clutch competitor. But if you leave to play with other great players then you're a pussy that can't win on his own. What a joke.


Duncan had every opportunity to leave. Remember Orlando? He had a great chance to play with either Tmac or Hill or even both but opted to say in Spurs. Your posts read like a revisionists. Fulls of what if's. I'm not hating on Lebron leaving. The things i dislike about his decision was the way he went about it. But to say that Jordan is off the mark here is ridiculous. Jordan didn't make the finals till he was 27. He had every chance to demand a trade. He had every chance to leave. He didn't. Lebron made the finals at a younger age. He competed for a championship at a younger age than Jordan did. Up until Pippen panned out, Lebron had more help than Jordan. You can say that Jordan was LUCKY. Well then every star is LUCKY. The Lakers were Lucky that Magic and Kobe panned out. The pistons were lucky that Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars panned out. This idea that they were lucky is ridiculous. Organizations draft players and develop them. That's what organizations do. Thats what the Bulls did. No different than any other organization in the league. Those defending Lebron's decision are living in a world of "if's" I'm sorry I live in reality and what actually did heppened. Jordan was lucky that he turned out to be a good player.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff

TheDarkPrince said:


> People keep say Jordan had "great" players around him. Outside of Pippen, everyone else who played with Jordan were career journey men.
> 
> First 3 peat team
> 
> C Bill Cartwright - good defender, decent jump shooter, was near the end of his career when he was traded to the Bulls.
> 
> PF Horace Grant - good defender, great hustle guy who did all the dirty work.
> 
> SF Scottie Pippen - outstanding defender, good second option on offense.
> 
> PG John Paxson - great shooter, so-so defender was in his twilight when the bulls started winning titles
> 
> Those players were good, but I would not say star studded by a long shot.
> 
> 
> Second 3 peat squad
> 
> C Luc Longley - Big guy, ok post game, was a foul magnet.
> 
> PF Dennis Rodman - great rebounder, great defender, could not score to save his life.
> 
> SF Scottie Pippen - (same as above)
> 
> PG Ron Harper - good defender, so-so scorer, was in his twilight during the Bulls last run.
> 
> special mention goes to Toni Kukoc off of the bench.
> 
> Once again good players, but future hall of fame guys? Outside of Scottie the rest were just good, or serviceable.


Thing is, these guys showed up in the playoffs along with Jordan and made big plays.


----------



## Najee

It's amazing how some people think. If LeBron James was traded to Miami, this would not be receiving any negative publicity. But because LeBron chose to go to Miami on his own, he's been roundly criticized about "his character" and "his legacy."

So in other words, players should not dare choose to play where they want to play. That's up to the owners to trade them.


----------



## seifer0406

This whole comparing Lebron to other players thing is based on a series of "ifs". None of these players have been with the Cavs for the past 7 years. People are assuming that they would've done things differently.

Tim Duncan comparison is way off. Had Duncan left the Spurs to join the Magic he would be going from a winner to a loser. Using you guys' logic it would build up his legacy even more.

Moreover, looking down the Cavs roster, do you really see a future allstar? I guess Varejao could Magloire a team down the road but other than him nobody has much potential. If everything goes well for JJ Hickson he might have a nice career but again, not much star potential.


----------



## jokeaward

Cleveland used a cartoon pitch. Pat Riley brought five championship rings. Only the Heat could bring ONE title into the discussion.

Maybe MJ would've gone to the Clippers to take over LA from Kobe? lol

Salary cap, and these guys aren't Bird or Johnson. It would be more like Shawn Kemp/Tom Chambers and Drexler jumping ship to a team with most assets cleared and MJ signing there. Bosh and Wade are great pieces but their teams haven't won a playoff series after 2006. Even the Warriors and Hawks have.



TheDarkPrince said:


> Are Heat fans really this crazy? Do you really think Wade, Bosh and Lebron are going to score a combined 80 points a game for an entire season? Has any big 3 ever done this? Their combined numbers will come down, this is fact. Or they will score 130 points every game. Which I seriously doubt.


The 05-06 Wizards got 67 PPG from their three with less talent.


----------



## Najee

I wonder what would have been Michael Jordan's response if Chicago continuosly made terrible personnel decisions during MJ's first seven years there. 

At least the Bulls did get something out of the draft. Chicago acquired Charles Oakley (1985) and Scottie Pippen (1987) in draft-day trades and selected Horace Grant with the 10th overall pick in 1987. B.J. Armstrong (1989) was more than serviceable. The Cavs got nothing out of its drafts during LeBron James' tenure.

That's not even counting the trades and free agent acquisitions. Considering how Jordan continually blasted Chicago for acquiring Dennis Hopson, how would have Jordan reacted if he was stuck on the same team with Larry Hurt (er, Hughes) for nearly three seasons? The equivalent of Shaquille O'Neal playing in Cleveland this season would have been the Bulls trading for Moses Malone in 1990-91.


----------



## futuristxen

Najee said:


> how would have Jordan reacted if he was stuck on the same team with Larry Hurt (er, Hughes) for nearly three seasons?




Probably pretty well since he later traded for Hughes with Rip Hamilton when he was player/gm on the Wizards *snicker*

Jordan is as bad a GM as Isiah Thomas. It's funny.


----------



## jokeaward

Did KG really advise Lebron to get out of a situation and get in one to win championships? That's pretty selfless to advise the MVP into possibly denying the Celtics much more than the Knicks, Nets, or Cavs.

MJ went to North Carolina, a loaded team with Worthy and others. Why not go to Wake Forest and compete against them? Beat them and Jimmy V. Oh wait, winning a national title with Dean Smith is fun and exciting.


----------



## futuristxen

jokeaward said:


> Did KG really advise Lebron to get out of a situation and get in one to win championships? That's pretty selfless to advise the MVP into possibly denying the Celtics much more than the Knicks, Nets, or Cavs.


Yeah he said it on TV after the Cavs got eliminated. They asked him what he told Lebron, and he said something to the affect that if he had known what he knows now, he would have left Minnesota for Boston when he was 25.


----------



## Game3525

Actually, He traded for Stackhouse instead of Hughes for Rip.


----------



## futuristxen

Game3525 said:


> Actually, He traded for Stackhouse instead of Hughes for Rip.


oh yeah. Haha. Wow even worse than I remembered.


----------



## Game3525

futuristxen said:


> oh yeah. Haha. Wow even worse than I remembered.


Not really, at the time Stack _was_ the better player.


----------



## Najee

TheDarkPrince said:


> Are Heat fans really this crazy? Do you really think Wade, Bosh and Lebron are going to score a combined 80 points a game for an entire season? Has any big 3 ever done this? Their combined numbers will come down, this is fact. Or they will score 130 points every game. Which I seriously doubt.


In 1986-87, the Seattle SuperSonics had three players average at least 23 points per game -- Dale Ellis (24.9), Tom Chambers (23.3) and Xavier McDaniel (23.0). The following season, Ellis put up 25.8 ppg but McDaniel (21.4) and Chambers (20.4) saw their numbers drop as Seattle added more depth to its team after the '87 draft.

Realistically, I can see LeBron James and Dwyane Wade averaging 23 to 25 ppg and Chris Bosh's numbers dropping to 18 ppg. Wade and LeBron are too dominant offfensively to have severe drops in their numbers, while Bosh's may have been slightly inflated.


----------



## ajax25

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> He wouldn't have left to join another team he would have whined about getting better players on his team.
> 
> Jordan is no saint. The only reason people don't call him on his faults is because he won. If LeBron wins nobody will care that he switched teams.


thats what im thinking, in 10 years when Lebron, Wade, and Bosh all have 4-5 nba titles nobody will care that he switched teams to get them. They will all be saying how great lebron is


----------



## Najee

futuristxen said:


> Probably pretty well since he later traded for Hughes with Rip Hamilton when he was player/gm on the Wizards *snicker*


In 2002, Larry Hughes signed as a free agent from Golden State. Michael Jordan traded Rip Hamilton to Detroit in exchange for Jerry Stackhouse.


----------



## jokeaward

futuristxen said:


> Yeah he said it on TV after the Cavs got eliminated. They asked him what he told Lebron, and he said something to the affect that if he had known what he knows now, he would have left Minnesota for Boston when he was 25.


He wants that 2012-13 Heat roster spot.


----------



## Jakain

Was the full quote posted in the thread?

Jordan:

"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry, called up Magic and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,' " Jordan said after playing in a celebrity golf tournament in Nevada. "But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

Doesn't seem as *******-ish.


----------



## BG7

I think people just need to accept that Lebron will never be MJ, and thre isn't really much he can do to change that.

Jordan did it all. Hit the game winning shot to win the national championship. He won the gold medal out of college with Bob Knight, and then did it again with the Dream team. Lebron on the other hand was on two embarassing teams that ended with the bronze in Athens and at the World Championship. 

Lebron got to the Finals and lost. He lost to the Magic in the conference finals and then went back the next year to lose to the Celtics. Jordan on the other hand lost to the Magic, and then came back the next year to kick their ass out of the playoffs and Shaq's ass to LA. Jordan lost to the Pistons and came back to beat them and send them into irrelevance. Jordan goes out and wins the dunk contest...while Lebron says he is going to enter it only to get scared and withdraw.

The two guys just aren't on the same level.


----------



## f22egl

seifer0406 said:


> Guys like f22egl are making things way too difficult for Lebron and the guys that tried to recruit him. Can you imagine what it would be like if things went by his logic?
> 
> So in order for Lebron to get out of Cleveland while maintaining his legacy/respect/dignity, he must go to a team that's
> 
> A) Better than the Cavs team without Lebron or else it would defeat the purpose of going there
> 
> B) A lot weaker than the current Cavs team *with* Lebron or else Lebron would be joining a possible rival and be mocked by the likes of MJ
> 
> Imagine if you're Pat Riley trying to build a team like that.
> 
> "Listen boys, we're going to present Lebron with a situation that's better than all of his other options but not good to the point where he gets mocked. We're going to give him the 2nd best chance for him to win a championship and it'll have to be 2nd best because he will lose his legacy if he chooses the best possible chance. We're going to pair him up with Wade and Bosh, but in order to make things more difficult we'll sign guys like Ricky Davis, Stephon Marbury, and trade for Eddy Curry. If the Wizards buy out Arenas we'll get him too and see if he shoots up the clubhouse. The fans are the most important and god forbid we piss off MJ"


I don't care about angering MJ. The fact is that LeBron took the easy way out. And I don't blame him. LeBron constantly gets crap for not getting a ring. As for Miami, it's a win for them. LeBron is the one who takes a hit to his legacy. If Miami took the plan you said above, LeBron would again take the easiest road for him to win a championship (ie Chicago).


----------



## kflo

BG7 said:


> I think people just need to accept that Lebron will never be MJ, and thre isn't really much he can do to change that.
> 
> Jordan did it all. Hit the game winning shot to win the national championship. He won the gold medal out of college with Bob Knight, and then did it again with the Dream team. Lebron on the other hand was on two embarassing teams that ended with the bronze in Athens and at the World Championship.
> 
> Lebron got to the Finals and lost. He lost to the Magic in the conference finals and then went back the next year to lose to the Celtics. Jordan on the other hand lost to the Magic, and then came back the next year to kick their ass out of the playoffs and Shaq's ass to LA. Jordan lost to the Pistons and came back to beat them and send them into irrelevance. Jordan goes out and wins the dunk contest...while Lebron says he is going to enter it only to get scared and withdraw.
> 
> The two guys just aren't on the same level.


if you strip out meaningless things like level of play and nba accomplishments and focus on things that matter more like dunk contests and ocllege titles as role players then you're right. 

lebron is 25 and has alot of basketball ahead of him. and lol at blaming athens on him.


----------



## ajax25

Jakain said:


> Was the full quote posted in the thread?
> 
> Jordan:
> 
> "There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry, called up Magic and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,' " Jordan said after playing in a celebrity golf tournament in Nevada. "But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."
> 
> Doesn't seem as *******-ish.



haha yeah that sounds alot better than before


----------



## f22egl

Cleveland had opportunities to lock down free agents if LeBron had committed to stay in Cleveland, so I can't really completely blame Cleveland's management for LeBron not winning a ring. If LeBron had signed an extension last season, the Cavs could have had Artest or Ariza last season. Having Ariza or Artest guard Paul Pierce sounds a lot better than Anthony Parker and Jamario Moon. 

I think Cleveland lost LeBron was with that Larry Hughes signing. I bet LeBron was thinking, "seriously, this is the best teammate you could find for me?" I'm not sure why they overpaid to keep Big Z either. BTW, it would be pretty funny if Cleveland had max cap space for 3 players and LeBron still chose to leave Cleveland because Miami has a better night scene. 

think LeBron has an opportunity to still be an all time great anyways, especially if Wade declines and the Heat still manage to get rings. But in the short term, LeBron is going to get a lot criticism for his decision. LeBron did need help in the postseason- who doesn't? Cleveland wasn't going to get him a Scottie Pippen- nor does LeBron really seem to grind and mold players like Michael Jordan. It's not in his nature to call rookies "a flaming f*****)like MJ did to Kwame Brown in Washington. 

LeBron clearly sees the ring as a validation for his career. He see President Obama calling Kobe the best player in the game, even though most people realize that LeBron (and Wade as well) could win a ring with that supporting cast of Gasol, Artest, Bynum, and Odom. He sees that people look at the # of rings rather than how players got them. But LeBron could still go down as a great player if he didn't win a ring in Cleveland; which won't certainly be the case in Miami- I think his career will be a disappointment if he doesn't win multiple rings.


----------



## f22egl

Najee said:


> In 2002, Larry Hughes signed as a free agent from Golden State. Michael Jordan traded Rip Hamilton to Detroit in exchange for Jerry Stackhouse.


That Hughes signing was probably Jordan's best move. He signed Hughes to a 3 year worth $15 million dollars.


----------



## Najee

f22egl said:


> That Hughes signing was probably Jordan's best move. He signed Hughes to a 3 year worth $15 million dollars.


And even then, Larry Hughes' best days came in 2004-05, two years after Michael Jordan left Washington. So you can give Jordan only so much credit for that.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

jokeaward said:


> MJ went to North Carolina, a loaded team with Worthy and others. Why not go to Wake Forest and compete against them? Beat them and Jimmy V. Oh wait, winning a national title with Dean Smith is fun and exciting.


haha, good point. MJ's legacy is tainted!


----------



## OneBadLT123

kflo said:


> hakeem had yearly issues with the rockets front office. he did alot of complaining in the early 90s.


This is true to an extent. A lot of the problems were instigated by then Owner Charlie Thomas and his top management staff for calling Hakeem out on allegations of Hakeem faking a hamstring injury when even team and independent doctors said he was injured. 

In addition, Charlie was low-balling Hakeem regarding contract negotiations and was unwilling to build/pay for building a team that was able to complement Hakeem due to outside financial restraints. 

Thats when Hakeem said it was enough, and that he would consider being traded. The near completed deal would have been Stanley Roberts and Cash considerations for Hakeem. (Thank GOD that didn't happen!) But Charlie and Hakeem talked out their problems, and the following year Charlie sold the team to current over Les Alexander.


----------



## Dre

One thing I did say after the playoffs that I'll stand by is LeBron not closing the deal with Cleveland is a nasty looking open ending. It's like the first chapter of his career is somewhat tainted.

If we want to be real he honestly is behind the 8 ball, let's not act like all he has to do is show up for 8 years and then slide right into Jordan's shoes, he has work to do.


----------



## Najee

seifer0406 said:


> The thing is Lebron wasn't trying to beat Bosh and Wade. MJ's comparison would make sense if Lebron joined forces with Dwight or Kobe or even the Celtics. This is a case where 2 guys that were on teams that weren't contenders and likely won't become contenders because of various reasons. It wasn't like Lebron joined a team that he can't beat or had a hard time beating.


Ironically, had LeBron James joined Chicago, then Michael Jordan's comments would have had merit.

Cleveland defeated Chicago in the first round of the playoffs this season, and LeBron and Chicago's Joakim Noah in particular have had words in the past (including one game in the regular season where Noah was running his mouth from the bench to LeBron and LeBron had to be kept from approaching him). And that's not counting Noah's comments about the city of Cleveland before these teams met in the playoffs. 

And yet for weeks people have been repping how Chicago would have been a good fit for LeBron. If LeBron joined Chicago, he truly would have joined the enemy -- and a divisonal rival to boot. It's interesting how some people don't see the contradictions.


----------



## King George

Najee said:


> Ironically, had LeBron James joined Chicago, then Michael Jordan's comments would have had merit.
> 
> Cleveland defeated Chicago in the first round of the playoffs this season, and LeBron and Chicago's Joakim Noah in particular have had words in the past (including one game in the regular season where Noah was running his mouth from the bench to LeBron and LeBron had to be kept from approaching him). And that's not counting Noah's comments about the city of Cleveland before these teams met in the playoffs.
> 
> And yet for weeks people have been repping how Chicago would have been a good fit for LeBron. If LeBron joined Chicago, he truly would have joined the enemy -- and a divisonal rival to boot. It's interesting how some people don't see the contradictions.


There is no contradiction. Chicago has no clear cut star. Derrick Rose is the face of bthe franchise at the moment but he ain't "that" yet. Wade is a certified superstar who has already won a title teaming up with him is a sucker move. Chris Bosh is just Chris Bosh he's not that good.


----------



## BG7

Najee said:


> Ironically, had LeBron James joined Chicago, then Michael Jordan's comments would have had merit.
> 
> Cleveland defeated Chicago in the first round of the playoffs this season, and LeBron and Chicago's Joakim Noah in particular have had words in the past (including one game in the regular season where Noah was running his mouth from the bench to LeBron and LeBron had to be kept from approaching him). And that's not counting Noah's comments about the city of Cleveland before these teams met in the playoffs.
> 
> And yet for weeks people have been repping how Chicago would have been a good fit for LeBron. If LeBron joined Chicago, he truly would have joined the enemy -- and a divisonal rival to boot. It's interesting how some people don't see the contradictions.


Definitely. Joakim Noah actually said yesterday that he didn't want to play with Lebron anyhow. The Bulls are an interesting team coming out of free agency just from the perspective of Rose saying he's not going to do much to sell any of these guys on Chicago, that the team should sell itself to these guys, to Joakim Noah saying Miami would be really hollywood and saying he didn't want to play with Lebron. 

I like that there are some teams out there (Chicago, Boston, Orlando, and LA Lakers) who aren't afraid of these guys. They are all severely outmatched talentwise, but this no fear attitude is how the upsets happen.

Also, I agree that Chicago (and New Jersey) would have given Lebron pretty much equal chance of winning. 

I think when you break it down:

Rose/Deng/Bosh/Gibson/Noah
Harris/Favors/Bosh/Lopez
Wade/Bosh/Haslem/Miller

I think all of these situations make Lebron's team a run away favorite. I think any one of them would have been him just going for the easy championships, as the talent is there in Chicago and New Jersey. But Miami was the only place where he would take the PR hit. In New Jersey they were a 12 win team last year. In Chicago he could get away with saying he wants to outdue MJ in his own house. But Miami? That's joining another top 5 player who already has a ring. That's the PR hit. Rose/Deng/Noah are at least equal if not greater than the value of Wade (especially since Rose/Noah should improve going into next year)...but neither was a top 5 player, or anywhere close last year. Rose was one of the fringest allstars, and Noah didn't make the team. Wade was getting MVP votes.


----------



## Najee

King George said:


> There is no contradiction. Chicago has no clear cut star. Derrick Rose is the face of bthe franchise at the moment but he ain't "that" yet. Wade is a certified superstar who has already won a title teaming up with him is a sucker move. Chris Bosh is just Chris Bosh he's not that good.


If LeBron James is considered by some as selling out by going to Miami, then it definitely would have been selling out by going to Chicago. The Bulls were more of a rival to Cleveland, particularly given how LeBron and Joakim Noah actually had to be separated in one game and Noah being a target in the playoffs for his comments toward the city of Cleveland. It's not like Miami and Cleveland faced each other in the playoffs a few months ago, either.

Even now, Noah is running his mouth about another team with LeBron on it. Like it or not, there is some bad blood/animosity there -- if LeBron joined that team given that, IMO that is selling out. Not to mention Cleveland and Chicago are divsional rivals, with Chicago having a historical one-up on the Cavs franchise as it is (the Jordan era).


----------



## King George

Najee said:


> If LeBron James is considered by some as selling out by going to Miami, then it definitely would have been selling out by going to Chicago. The Bulls were more of a rival to Cleveland, particularly given how LeBron and Joakim Noah actually had to be separated in one game and Noah being a target in the playoffs for his comments toward the city of Cleveland. It's not like Miami and Cleveland faced each other in the playoffs a few months ago, either.
> 
> Even now, Noah is running his mouth about another team with LeBron on it. Like it or not, there is some bad blood/animosity there -- if LeBron joined that team given that, IMO that is selling out. Not to mention Cleveland and Chicago are divsional rivals, with Chicago having a historical one-up on the Cavs franchise as it is (the Jordan era).


Joakim Noah is just another player. Who cares if he likes LeBron or not? U acting as if he has some clout or something. LeBron sold out going to Miami to ride Wade's coattails.


----------



## E.H. Munro

That's right, dude! Ever since Shaq's death Wade's carried the Heatz to the bestest record in the NBA and singlehandedly put the Heatz into the title picture every year!!!!!

(Before you write something that stupid again, and when I say _stupid_ I mean S - T - OO - OO - PID stupid, take a deep breath and look at reality. Wade's teams have only made it to seven games in round one once since the title, they've been cannon fodder every single year. If anything Wade and Bosh fitted themselves for coattails when they begged LeBron to join them.)


----------



## Najee

King George said:


> Joakim Noah is just another player. Who cares if he likes LeBron or not? U acting as if he has some clout or something. LeBron sold out going to Miami to ride Wade's coattails.


Sold out to what? Your preconceived logic that LeBron James violated some unwritten code about "going to another person's team?" But yet, LeBron wouldn't have violated some unwritten code about going to a divisional rival with whom he and some other players on that team had some verbal confrontations as recently as a few months ago?

This isn't high school, where people have to bow to peer pressure to be accepted. You really don't see how contradictory and self-serving your comments are. Not to mention you apparently feel that LeBron's actions have to seek your approval as far as where he chooses to play.


----------



## King George

Najee said:


> Sold out to what? Your preconceived logic that LeBron James violated some unwritten code about "going to another person's team?" But yet, LeBron wouldn't have violated some unwritten code about going to a divisional rival with whom he and some other players on that team had some verbal confrontations as recently as a few months ago?
> 
> This isn't high school, where people have to bow to peer pressure to be accepted. You really don't see how contradictory and self-serving your comments are. Not to mention you apparently feel that LeBron's actions have to seek your approval as far as where he chooses to play.


Joakim Noah is an absolute nobody!! He holds no weight. LeBron James pulled a cowardly move. Trying to form a super-team instead of trying to face the best competition possible. It's terrible. he's trying to get cheap championships. He can never be considered an all-time great after such a female move.


----------



## 77AJ

I think part of the greatness of LeBron James prior to the move to Miami was the mystique his Ohio followers believed that he would win a championship in Cleveland, and do it with the players around him, because he was the greatest player ever. I believe many people felt that way, and enshrined James with that kind of expectations. However since he threw in the towel in Ohio with out delivering any championships, it destroyed the legend that was being cultivated in Ohio. 

Not that I care though, I believe LBJ will be Magic Johnson on the Heat, and Dwyane Wade will be Michael Jordan, and Chris Bosh will be Karl Malone. Who the hell could blame James for going to Miami. Not me, oh no sir!


----------



## Najee

Pretty simple question, if you ask me. 

If you're an NBA player, who do you want to roll with in order to win: Dwyane Wade or Chris Bosh? Or Mo Williams and Anderson Varejao?

The bottom line is the dynasty talk didn't start when Wade said he will re-sign with Miami and Bosh announced he was going to Miami. People were still looking at them as just another playoff team. 

The circus atmosphere started when LeBron signed on to play in Miami.


----------



## 77AJ

Najee said:


> Pretty simple question, if you ask me.
> 
> If you're an NBA player, who do you want to roll with in order to win: Dwyane Wade or Chris Bosh? Or Mo Williams and Anderson Varejao?
> 
> The bottom line is the dynasty talk didn't start when Wade said he will re-sign with Miami and Bosh announced he was going to Miami. People were still looking at them as just another playoff team.
> 
> The circus atmosphere started when LeBron signed on to play in Miami.


Well the media frenzy has been tailored made to LeBron James since his High School days. No surprise there. Bosh and Wade had very little fan fare coming into the NBA in comparison to the LeBron James, Darko, and Melo picks.


----------



## King George

Najee said:


> Pretty simple question, if you ask me.
> 
> If you're an NBA player, who do you want to roll with in order to win: Dwyane Wade or Chris Bosh? Or Mo Williams and Anderson Varejao?
> 
> The bottom line is the dynasty talk didn't start when Wade said he will re-sign with Miami and Bosh announced he was going to Miami. People were still looking at them as just another playoff team.
> 
> The circus atmosphere started when LeBron signed on to play in Miami.


Mo Williams and Anderson Varejao. If I'm a ball player I'm going to want to be the best I can be and not ride anyone elses coattails. I would not have joined Wade in Miami. I personally would've joined the Knickerbockers. Again, Chris Bosh is nothing to me.


----------



## Wade County

Hope you enjoy not winning championships then ^.

How can you say "and Chris Bosh is nothing to me"? The guys an All-Star. 24 and 10 last season. He's gonna be getting open midrange J's all night long.


----------



## TheDarkPrince

Wade County said:


> Hope you enjoy not winning championships then ^.
> 
> How can you say "and Chris Bosh is nothing to me"? The guys an All-Star. 24 and 10 last season. He's gonna be getting open midrange J's all night long.


So you think Lebron, Wade and Bosh are locks to win a title? Sports is funny like this, but They may never even reach the NBA Finals for all we know. It's just too early to start saying stuff like that.


----------



## Wade County

I have no illusions that we're "locks" to win championships, and i've never said we were. Championships are very hard to get, i've only celebrated 1. My point was that rolling with Mo Williams and Varejao weren't getting Lebron to where he wanted to be. Clearly, he's got a better chance in Miami.


----------



## TheDarkPrince

Wade County said:


> I have no illusions that we're "locks" to win championships. My point was that rolling with Mo Williams and Varejao weren't getting Lebron to where he wanted to be. Clearly, he's got a better chance in Miami.


It's amazing people forget that the Cavs had the best record in the NBA the past 2 years. But I guess Lebron won 60 games a year all by himself. Something even Kobe and Jordan could not do.


----------



## Wade County

Again - putting words into my mouth...

I never said they weren't a decent supporting cast - or that LBJ did it all himself. Clearly he had solid roleplayers around him to win 60 games, but in the playoffs you need that 2nd offensive option. Mo Williams constantly comes up small in those situations - hence the Cavs become one dimensional and were bounced. I said playing in Miami gives him a better chance to get a championship. Do you disagree?


----------



## seifer0406

Najee said:


> Ironically, had LeBron James joined Chicago, then Michael Jordan's comments would have had merit.


I'm sure people will come up with something else to criticize Lebron if he chose Chicago instead of Miami. The conclusion that I've reached from reading these threads is that the people that are criticizing him feels that the guy should've stayed in Cleveland (Contrary to the poll result from another thread). People are going to come up with some wacky criteria to justify their criticism. Whether it's "He should go to a team that's not too good" or "He went to a bigger market and that's going to start a trend of stars fleeing small market teams", or "He's joining rivals that he should be competing against", or "He shouldn't leave a team before bringing them a championship." He shouldn't do this he shouldn't do that. It feels like theres nothing he can do instead of staying in Cleveland. All these threads about his legacy and stuff is just bs if you ask me. These aren't discussions, it's just an announcement of "Hey look! I found another angle to criticize Lebron's decision." MJ is doing it, Barkley is doing it, of course a lot of our posters are working hard and coming up with stuff.

These are fun talks, meaningless but fun. 

I'll say one thing that he shouldn't have done that everyone agrees with. He shouldn't have done that retarded TV special. Other than that, theres absolutely nothing he did wrong in my opinion. Haters are going hate and I doubt Lebron is having trouble sleeping at night especially with all the girls that he'll be getting now that he's down in Miami.


----------



## Cap

I think Jordan hates himself now just a little too much, knowing he can't prove himself as the best any longer.


----------



## Najee

TheDarkPrince said:


> It's amazing people forget that the Cavs had the best record in the NBA the past 2 years. But I guess Lebron won 60 games a year all by himself. Something even Kobe and Jordan could not do.


Of course, Cleveland also had arguably the best player in the NBA the past two seasons. And in the regular season, the teams play each other only four or five times over a six-month span in a glorified sprint to get the best playoff seeding possible. And some teams are just so bad that a one-man wrecking crew like a LeBron James can take them on almost by himself.

The playoffs are a different animal. Teams play each other up to seven times in a two-week span. Coaches can come up with strategies and tweak them in short notice. And teams that are more well-rounded and balanced squads usually can exploit such matchups and are much more likely to win the series.

That's the bottom line with Cleveland's team -- against the more well-rounded teams in a seven-game series, you're not going to beat the likes of Orlando, Boston, the Lakers, etc, with Mo Williams as your wingman (not to mention a wingman with a notorious history of fading in the playoffs). Cleveland may have the best player on the court, but a team like Boston would have the second- through even fifth-best player on the court.

If you don't agree, we'll see how well the Cavs as constituted do without LeBron next season.


----------



## Najee

seifer0406 said:


> I'm sure people will come up with something else to criticize Lebron if he chose Chicago instead of Miami. The conclusion that I've reached from reading these threads is that the people that are criticizing him feels that the guy should've stayed in Cleveland (Contrary to the poll result from another thread).


Yeah, I agree -- it's the in-thing to jump on the "Let's pile on LeBron!" bandwagon right now. 

It's a common theme when it comes to pop culture figures: Build them up to near-deity status, look for the smallest thing and magnify it until it's exaggerated as the biggest character flaw in the history of mankind and ultimately people jump on it like jackals.

And Michael Jordan should be the last one to jump into this, considering he went through a similar thing with the gambling issue in 1993. He must have forgotten how the media and people were all over him, even to the point where some people were speculating his father's murder was the result of his gambling trips. The "outrage" only subsided when he retired the first time.


----------



## HB

Would have been criticized wherever he went...yes, particularly for the clownish type move he made on TV BUT he would not be criticized this much because the other teams dont have 2 top 10 players on their roster.


----------



## seifer0406

Even if Lebron stayed in Cleveland there will be a group of people criticizing him for not being a winner. People would criticize him for not willing to share the spotlight and rather be the man on a non-championship team than be 1A or even 2 on a championship team.

There is no perfect decision, period.

The funny thing is something tells me it would be the same group of people saying these things had things be different. Of course, not counting the people from Cleveland, they would've been happy I'm sure.


----------



## Najee

Not to mention some of the revisionist history going on. I don't recall Miami winning a playoff series the last four years with Dwyane Wade and I don't recall people calling Chris Bosh one of the 10 best players in the NBA until a few weeks ago.


----------



## HB

Wade to some might be the best 2 guard in the league, Bosh is one of the premier big men in the game, top 10 lists are subjective, some will have both on their lists, others wont. Bottom line Bron has hooked up with two of the best players in the game.


----------



## f22egl

seifer0406 said:


> Even if Lebron stayed in Cleveland there will be a group of people criticizing him for not being a winner. People would criticize him for not willing to share the spotlight and rather be the man on a non-championship team than be 1A or even 2 on a championship team.
> 
> There is no perfect decision, period.
> 
> The funny thing is something tells me it would be the same group of people saying these things had things be different. Of course, not counting the people from Cleveland, they would've been happy I'm sure.


If LeBron had just signed an extension like Durant last season, no one would be criticizing him or certainly the level of criticism would be less. No one is criticizing Durant for re-signing in OKC. When he decided to test the market and bring all the national spotlight to his free agency, that's where the criticism started. He also drew out the process for about a week, when all sources indicate he made up his mind well before that. 

I have to say LeBron could have avoided a lot of this criticism by not making it an ESPN Special and I don't feel sorry for him. That being said, he has the right to go to wherever he wants. LeBron IMO wouldn't be able to handle the NY Media. Chicago didn't have enough shooters. Miami made the most sense short term sense to LeBron. Time will tell if he made the right decision.


----------



## seifer0406

Then people would criticize him for being a dumb ass because he didn't explore his options. People might not criticize him *this year* but I'm sure it would come especially after another playoff exit or 2.

I love Durant and I think he's one of the best players in the world, but he shouldn't even be in this discussion because the level of expectations that people have of him is nothing compare to what people expect of Lebron.


----------



## Najee

HB said:


> Wade to some might be the best 2 guard in the league, Bosh is one of the premier big men in the game, top 10 lists are subjective, some will have both on their lists, others wont. Bottom line Bron has hooked up with two of the best players in the game.


I guess I'm not seeing what the "cardinal sin" is. It basically sounds like people are pissed because LeBron James *GASP* had the nerve to choose to go to Miami, but if he was traded to Miami (a la Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen to Boston in 2007) it would be more accepting.

At the end of the day, it's just another type of transaction. Like I said, this is indicative of how people love building up pop culture figures to almost impossible standards and then look for the smallest thing to tear them down.


----------



## MemphisX

seifer0406 said:


> Then people would criticize him for being a dumb ass because he didn't explore his options. People might not criticize him *this year* but I'm sure it would come especially after another playoff exit or 2.
> 
> I love Durant and I think he's one of the best players in the world, but he shouldn't even be in this discussion because the level of expectations that people have of him is nothing compare to what people expect of Lebron.


I am sure Durant will take his team to the finals just like year 4 LeBron. I am sure all the media Durant jock riders will pick that final.

Funny times...

This year it gets real for Durant. Okc is expected to advance in the playoffs now. 

MJ-Shaq-Kobe-LeBron have all gone from beloved to highly criticized to beloved in the eyes of the media. 

Also, when did Wade/LeBron compete for titles. Did I miss Miami being a contender last year?


----------



## Adam

I don't even understand Jordan's point. I'm confused. He's equating the Miami Heat and Toronto Raptors of last year to the Showtime Lakers or the Bird Celtics.

They should check to see if he actually sat his SAT for UNC because he sucks at analogies.


----------



## Najee

f22egl said:


> Charles Barkely said the same thing. He said when he was in his prime, there was no way that he would ever team up and try to play with Jordan, Bird, or Magic.


No, he just forced Philadelphia to trade him in his prime to a Phoenix team that typically won 50-plus games and already had Kevin Johnson, Dan Majerle and Tom Chambers.


----------



## futuristxen

Najee said:


> No, he just forced Philadelphia to trade him in his prime to a Phoenix team that typically won 50-plus games and already had Kevin Johnson, Dan Majerle and Tom Chambers.


And then when that didn't work out he got himself traded to the Rockets to play with Hakeem and Pippen.

I'm sure if the Heat offered Barkley the 12th man spot on this team to get a ring right now, he'd take it.

Charles Barkley and Karl Malone are the two best reasons for Lebron to do what he did. Neither of those guys will ever get their full due because they got no rings on their fingers.

Even Wilt for all his achievements is considered worse than Russell even though Russell was playing on loaded teams.

in the end, for what ever reason, the only thing that matters is that ring.


----------



## kflo

players today are too cozy. and too friendly.

not like the old days. they hated each other. would never go for that kind of fraternizing.


----------



## futuristxen

These guys absolutely hated each other too:


----------



## Game3525

Adam said:


> *I don't even understand Jordan's point. I'm confused. He's equating the Miami Heat and Toronto Raptors of last year to the Showtime Lakers or the Bird Celtics.*
> They should check to see if he actually sat his SAT for UNC because he sucks at analogies.


Why are some of you guys being willfully ignorant? He is not compare Bosh and Wade to Magic or Bird literally. All he is saying who rather beat Bird and Magic, who were his PEERS in terms of talent, just like how Wade is Lebron peer, and so is Bosh to a lesser degree. This isn't all that hard to understand.......


----------



## kflo

Game3525 said:


> Why are some of you guys being willfully ignorant? He is not compare Bosh and Wade to Magic or Bird literally. All he is saying who rather beat Bird and Magic, who were his PEERS in terms of talent, just like how Wade is Lebron peer, and so is Bosh to a lesser degree. This isn't all that hard to understand.......


bird and magic were also on the best teams. that's why jordan wanted to beat them. he wasn't as concerned with beating barkley's sixers, and probably wouldn't have had an issue with playing with him. the heat weren't the team to beat. he didn't join the lakers. the lakers and the celts are still the teams to beat. the heat weren't the team challenging lebron and the cavs.


----------



## Game3525

kflo said:


> bird and magic were also on the best teams. that's why jordan wanted to beat them. he wasn't as concerned with beating barkley's sixers, and probably wouldn't have had an issue with playing with him. the heat weren't the team to beat. he didn't join the lakers. the lakers and the celts are still the teams to beat. the heat weren't the team challenging lebron and the cavs.


Again your splitting hairs, the point Jordan is making is he wouldn't want to play with another tier one superstar, that is it. It is a differant era, MJ, Magic, and Bird may have been friendly off the court, but they all wanted to beat the hell out of eachother on the court.


----------



## kflo

Game3525 said:


> Again your splitting hairs, the point Jordan is making is he wouldn't want to play with another tier one superstar, that is it. It is a differant era, MJ, Magic, and Bird may have been friendly off the court, but they all wanted to beat the hell out of eachother on the court.


i'm not splitting hairs at all. sure they wanted to beat each other. the celtics and the lakers were the dominant franchises. so yeah, jordan wanted to take aim at them (and of course the pistons). but barkley was a tier one superstar, whose team wasn't so good. kinda like wade. and jordan was less concerned with beating barkley than he was with beating bird. because bird was on the better team. and if barkley (or hakeem or ewing or malone) and jordan, had their way circa 1988 or 1989, i'm pretty sure they would have welcomed playing with each other. ultimately, the lakers and celtics faded, and so did the pistons and jordan had his supporting star. had pippen not become pippen, jordan would have happily accepted help. or sought it out.


----------



## Game3525

Barkley wasn't like Wade, Wade has already won and is considered by some as the 2nd best player in the game. Chuck was good, but he wasn't considered a top five player. Some of you guys are clearly overthinking this, it is simple all he is saying is he would rather go through this guys to get a title then join them, thats it.


----------



## kflo

Game3525 said:


> Barkley wasn't like Wade, Wade has already won and is considered by some as the 2nd best player in the game. Chuck was good, but he wasn't considered a top five player. Some of you guys are clearly overthinking this, it is simple all he is saying is he would rather go through this guys to get a title then join them, thats it.


and what you're missing is that lebron didn't join the lakers or celts or even the magic. and that jordan wanted to beat the best teams, not the best players. 

and please, do not act as if wade is in a separate category than charles barkley was in his prime. please.

do you think jordan would have welcomed charles barkley on his team, yes or no? or hakeem? or ewing? or are none of those guys on wade's level?


----------



## Game3525

kflo said:


> *and what you're missing is that lebron didn't join the lakers or celts or even the magic. and that jordan wanted to beat the best teams, not the best players.*
> 
> and please, do not act as if wade is in a separate category than charles barkley was in his prime. please.
> 
> do you think jordan would have welcomed charles barkley on his team, yes or no? or hakeem? or ewing? or are none of those guys on wade's level?


That isn't the point, the point is he is playing peers that he should want to go through to get a title in Jordan's mind. Jordan is pretty bullheaded, and does talk out of his ass. But in this case, I don't think he would ever joined those guys, his goal wasn't just to win a championship but to be the first scoring champion to do so.


----------



## BeeGee

kflo said:


> and what you're missing is that lebron didn't join the lakers or celts or even the magic. and that jordan wanted to beat the best teams, not the best players.


I don't get this at all. There's nothing gray about what MJ said. He said 

"I would not have called Larry and Magic and say let's play together. I wanted to beat them." 

Dawg, you can't take that and twist it into "I wanted to beat the best teams, not players". He said again 

"In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys"

Can't just take the statement and look right past what the man said. And it's Michael Jordan, which makes his statement totally believable. This NBC guy even wrote an article to refute Mike's statement, saying that MJ would've absolutely called Magic and/or Larry up, because he wanted to win-- as if he knows what MJ would've done. But that's just more speculation added to the insanely huge heap of speculation surrounding this whole deal.

All we can go off of is what happened. Everything else is just babble.


----------



## kflo

BeeGee said:


> I don't get this at all. There's nothing gray about what MJ said. He said
> 
> "I would not have called Larry and Magic and say let's play together. I wanted to beat them."
> 
> Dawg, you can't take that and twist it into "I wanted to beat the best teams, not players". He said again
> 
> "In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys"
> 
> Can't just take the statement and look right past what the man said. And it's Michael Jordan, which makes his statement totally believable. This NBC guy even wrote an article to refute Mike's statement, saying that MJ would've absolutely called Magic and/or Larry up, because he wanted to win-- as if he knows what MJ would've done. But that's just more speculation added to the insanely huge heap of speculation surrounding this whole deal.
> 
> All we can go off of is what happened. Everything else is just babble.


oh, right - he said it so it must be true. he said it in 2010, so it must be what his thought process was in 1989.

anyone can say anything they want. anyone can be delusional. 

for one, he didn't have the opportunity to call larry or magic. it wasn't an option. 

i'll ask again - do you think jordan would have welcomed charles barkley on his team, yes or no? or hakeem? or ewing? 

the fact is the celtics and pistons (and lakers out west) got worse and the bulls got better. had those things not happened, do you think jordan would have just quietly stuck it out?


----------



## seifer0406

But Lebron *already* beat Bosh and Wade. Lebron has those 2 beat statistically, Lebron has 2 MVPs to 0 between Wade/Bosh, Lebron teams dominated both of their teams, there is no rivalry. Lebron has the upper hand no matter how you slice it, chop it, shred it.

I've already discussed this a couple pages ago. People need to understand the angle that MJ is trying to create by this statement. He is saying that Lebron is taking the "If I can't beat them or I have a hard time beating them, I should just join them approach." That just doesn't imply here is what I'm saying. 

If MJ meant that he doesn't want to play with Magic and Bird because he doesn't want to play with other superstars, it would just imply that he doesn't want to share the spotlight with another player. This is something that everyone knows but not something that MJ wants to bring upon himself. Therefore I honestly doubt this is what MJ meant when he made these statements.


----------



## BeeGee

kflo said:


> the fact is the celtics and pistons (and lakers out west) got worse and the bulls got better. had those things not happened, do you think jordan would have just quietly stuck it out?


Therein lies the rub, my friend. Mike DID stick it out. Which is what stars "destined" to win titles have to do. Sometimes, you have to wait it out. We can sit here and speculate and question who "would've" done what until we turn blue in the face... The bottom line is I know what MJ said, and I know what MJ did.

How about Lebron? I know what he said too. He said "I got a goal, and it's a big goal, and that's to bring a championship to Cleveland -- and I won't stop til I get it..." He said that about 3.5 months ago. 

But I also know what Lebron did. He said "This summer, I'm taking my talents to South Beach." He said that about 3 weeks ago.

MJ said he would've never called those guys up and asked to join them. He never did, and we're talking about a guy who even in his retirement speech, gave us a glimpse at how much he still relishes mano-a-mano competiton. So I have no reason not to believe him. Notice MJ said he wouldn't have asked to join those guys. But he never said he wouldn't have welcomed one of them to join him. But that's been he and Chuckwagon's point the whole time, hasn't it. You're the 2-time reigning MVP of the league and its best player. You don't leave to go play with somebody. Somebody leaves to join you. Charles verified this on a radio interview.

Lebron on the other hand, said one thing, and did the exact opposite. He made a spectacle of it, using national TV to make his announcement. 

Those are the facts, not speculation. You can say MJ would've done this or would've done that, like many people are saying. It just makes you another speculatory opinion.


----------



## Adam

This isn't a fairy tale. This isn't Hoosiers. The guy switched teams. I've still yet to see any logical argument about how this diminishes his ability as a player.

Anybody who wants to argue that LeBron is classless because of this move and then use quotes from a scumbag like Jordan then they are seriously delusional. Jordan is as big a douche as they come.


----------



## kflo

BeeGee said:


> Therein lies the rub, my friend. Mike DID stick it out. Which is what stars "destined" to win titles have to do. Sometimes, you have to wait it out. We can sit here and speculate and question who "would've" done what until we turn blue in the face... The bottom line is I know what MJ said, and I know what MJ did.
> 
> How about Lebron? I know what he said too. He said "I got a goal, and it's a big goal, and that's to bring a championship to Cleveland -- and I won't stop til I get it..." He said that about 3.5 months ago.
> 
> But I also know what Lebron did. He said "This summer, I'm taking my talents to South Beach." He said that about 3 weeks ago.
> 
> MJ said he would've never called those guys up and asked to join them. He never did, and we're talking about a guy who even in his retirement speech, gave us a glimpse at how much he still relishes mano-a-mano competiton. So I have no reason not to believe him. Notice MJ said he wouldn't have asked to join those guys. But he never said he wouldn't have welcomed one of them to join him. But that's been he and Chuckwagon's point the whole time, hasn't it. You're the 2-time reigning MVP of the league and its best player. You don't leave to go play with somebody. Somebody leaves to join you. Charles verified this on a radio interview.
> 
> Lebron on the other hand, said one thing, and did the exact opposite. He made a spectacle of it, using national TV to make his announcement.
> 
> Those are the facts, not speculation. You can say MJ would've done this or would've done that, like many people are saying. It just makes you another speculatory opinion.


yes, mj is commenting on something he neither had the opportunity to do, or the motivation to do. 

as for others joining lebron - who gives a ****. others weren't coming to cle. they didn't make that happen. for 7 years they didn't make that happen. jordan didn't have to lobby to get scottie pippen to come to chi. he was there. 

you talk about speculation, but commenting about not doing something he didn't have the option to do. big deal. he would have gladly taken great players to play with him. and if he wasn't happy with his prospects of winning a title with what he had, he would have either kept not winning, or done something about it.


----------



## BeeGee

kflo said:


> yes, mj is commenting on something he neither had the opportunity to do, *or the motivation *to do.


You don't know what MJ's motivation was or wasn't. What we do know is that in the 7 seasons leading up to MJ winning his first title, he never quit. He never left Chicago. He eventually swept Detroit and got his championship. That's what we actually know.


kflo said:


> as for others joining lebron - who gives a ****. others *weren't* coming to cle. they didn't make that happen. for 7 years they didn't make that happen. jordan didn't have to lobby to get scottie pippen to come to chi. he was there.


Actually, a lot of people gave a ****. You don't know that nobody was coming to Cleveland. Maybe if Bron had waited one more year, his best friend, CP3 joins him in Cleveland? Maybe his good budy Carmelo Anthony, joins him in Cleveland? The bottom line is you don't know, and we'll never know. Lebron quit, packed up, and left to go join others.


kflo said:


> you talk about speculation, but commenting about not doing something he didn't have the option to do. big deal. *he would have *gladly taken great players to play with him. and if he wasn't happy with his prospects of winning a title with what he had, *he would have *either kept not winning, or done something about it.


And if you *would've* stopped using complete speculation to make a point that you simply can't make, I *would've* not had the option of putting it in blue bold to point it out.


----------



## seifer0406

BeeGee said:


> Maybe if Bron had waited one more year, his best friend, CP3 joins him in Cleveland? Maybe his good budy Carmelo Anthony, joins him in Cleveland? .


And MJ would be ok with that because Melo and CP aren't guys that Lebron should be trying to beat? I don't know about you but Lebron has a much bigger rivalry with Melo than with Bosh.

Oh wait, he said



> "I would not have called Larry and Magic and say let's play together. I wanted to beat them."


Sounds like contradicting statements here.


----------



## Game3525

I don't see why this is a big deal, all Jordan said if he had the opportunity in hindsight he wouldn't do it. I don't see why some of you guys are trying to spin his comments, because it isn't that big of a deal.


----------



## seifer0406

Game3525 said:


> I don't see why this is a big deal, all Jordan said if he had the opportunity in hindsight he wouldn't do it. I don't see why some of you guys are trying to spin his comments, because it isn't that big of a deal.


Because MJ is *implying* something with his comments. Are you suggesting that we just take his comments at face value? 

So ok, MJ is saying he wouldn't play with Magic and Bird. Lebron isn't calling Magic and Bird and asking them to play with him. One of them is older than his dad and the other has AIDS, wouldn't work.

If we're going to interpret MJ's statements, these are legitimate questions to ask because the comparison seems off base. It's not a big deal, but if he's going to make a statement that doesn't make sense to some, theres reason for people to question it.


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> And MJ would be ok with that because Melo and CP aren't guys that Lebron should be trying to beat? I don't know about you but Lebron has a much bigger rivalry with Melo than with Bosh.
> 
> Oh wait, he said
> 
> Sounds like contradicting statements here.


From What Barkley said, he and MJ are of the opinion that Bron, as the reigning 2-time MVP, had no business leaving to go anywhere to play with another star. They were of the opinion that another star should've joined him in Cleveland. Based on that, it's not really a conflicting statement. Also, when MJ was speaking, he spoke of Magic and Larry, the other top-3 players in the game. I think in Lebron's case, we're talking about Wade and Kobe. So again, Melo and CP3 would not exactly be a contradiction because they aren't "Magic & Larry".


----------



## E.H. Munro

Game3525 said:


> Why are some of you guys being willfully ignorant? He is not compare Bosh and Wade to Magic or Bird literally. All he is saying who rather beat Bird and Magic, who were his PEERS in terms of talent, just like how Wade is Lebron peer, and so is Bosh to a lesser degree. This isn't all that hard to understand.......


I think what people are laughing at is the hypocrisy of Jordan, who publicly demanded that Bulls get him some help way back in the day. He might not have joined the Boston Celtics, but he sure as hell would have welcomed Charles Barkley's help in defeating them.


----------



## Game3525

seifer0406 said:


> Because MJ is *implying* something with his comments. Are you suggesting that we just take his comments at face value?
> 
> So ok, MJ is saying he wouldn't play with Magic and Bird. Lebron isn't calling Magic and Bird and asking them to play with him. One of them is older than his dad and the other has AIDS, wouldn't work.
> 
> If we're going to interpret MJ's statements, these are legitimate questions to ask because the comparison seems off base. It's not a big deal, but if he's going to make a statement that doesn't make sense to some, theres reason for people to question it.


You guys are splitting hairs with his comments, all he is saying is he wouldn't join up with guys he considers rivals, that is it. In fact, he never said what Lebron did was wrong. The comments do make sense, if you don't overthink them. Quite franly, it isn't rocket science what Jordan is trying to say.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> I think what people are laughing at is the hypocrisy of Jordan, who publicly demanded that Bulls get him some help way back in the day. He might not have joined the Boston Celtics, but he sure as hell would have welcomed Charles Barkley's help in defeating them.


Barkley isn't Magic or Larry. MJ was simply saying that he wouldn't have joined the other top-2 players in the game - he wanted to beat them. I don't see any hypocrisy in that.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Barkley is one of the greatest forwards to ever play the game. Don't even try to go there.


----------



## seifer0406

Game3525 said:


> You guys are splitting hairs with his comments, all he is saying is he wouldn't join up with guys he considers rivals, that is it. In fact, he never said what Lebron did was wrong. The comments do make sense, if you don't overthink them. Quite franly, it isn't rocket science what Jordan is trying to say.


Please, you have to be a complete idiot to not see that MJ was trying to put Lebron's career down by making these comments.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> Barkley is one of the greatest forwards to ever play the game. Don't even try to go there.


Barkley isn't Magic or Larry. Don't even try to go there.


----------



## Game3525

seifer0406 said:


> Please, you have to be a complete idiot to not see that MJ was trying to put Lebron's career down by making these comments.


Well, what did you want him to say? They asked him a question, and all he said was he wouldn't have done it, and that he played in a differant era.


----------



## kflo

BeeGee said:


> Barkley isn't Magic or Larry. MJ was simply saying that he wouldn't have joined the other top-2 players in the game - he wanted to beat them. I don't see any hypocrisy in that.


again, it's absurd to put wade on a different tier than charles barkley. 

and again, he had no opportunity to join magic or larry. and doing so would be more akin to lebron calling up kobe. who is on the best team. not wade.


----------



## kflo

BeeGee said:


> Barkley isn't Magic or Larry. Don't even try to go there.


neither is wade.


----------



## BeeGee

kflo said:


> again, it's absurd to put wade on a different tier than charles barkley.
> 
> and again, he had no opportunity to join magic or larry. and doing so would be more akin to lebron calling up kobe. who is on the best team. not wade.


When you can tell me that Wade isn't one of the game's top 3 players, I can agree with your comment. Until then, it makes zero sense.


----------



## Game3525

kflo said:


> *again, it's absurd to put wade on a different tier than charles barkley*.
> 
> and again, he had no opportunity to join magic or larry. and doing so would be more akin to lebron calling up kobe. who is on the best team. not wade.


Well granted, Wade is a higher ranked player in his era, then Chuck was in his. Wade is considered a top three player, while Chuck for the most part wasn't in his career.


----------



## kflo

Game3525 said:


> You guys are splitting hairs with his comments, all he is saying is he wouldn't join up with guys he considers rivals, that is it. In fact, he never said what Lebron did was wrong. The comments do make sense, if you don't overthink them. Quite franly, it isn't rocket science what Jordan is trying to say.


lebron isn't joining the '86 celtics or the '87 lakers.


----------



## Game3525

kflo said:


> lebron isn't joining the '86 celtics or the '87 lakers.


And that isn't Jordan's point, Lebron is joining a top 3 player, like Magic and Larry were in their era......


----------



## seifer0406

BeeGee said:


> From What Barkley said, he and MJ are of the opinion that Bron, as the reigning 2-time MVP, had no business leaving to go anywhere to play with another star. They were of the opinion that another star should've joined him in Cleveland. Based on that, it's not really a conflicting statement.


Barkley is not the spokesperson for MJ. You can't use his comments about Lebron going to Miami to reflect what MJ is thinking.

What MJ said is that he would not join guys that he was trying to beat. Wade and Bosh are the guys he joined so those 2 guys should be the ones the Lebron should be trying to beat. I'm saying how does that eliminate Melo and CP?



> Also, when MJ was speaking, he spoke of Magic and Larry, the other top-3 players in the game. I think in Lebron's case, we're talking about Wade and Kobe. So again, Melo and CP3 would not exactly be a contradiction because they aren't "Magic & Larry".


Which would be another comparison that's offbase because Lebron didn't join with 2 other top 3 players. Wade is arguably a top 3 player and Bosh is hardly top 10 or even top 15 in most rankings. CP on the other hand is top 5 in a lot of people's rankings. Not saying any of these rankings matter, but it's enough evidence to say that this criticism would work had Lebron asked CP to play with him. Melo on the other hand has been a rival to Lebron since they joined the league in 2003. Which is enough grounds to again fulfill the "You shouldn't join your rival" statement that MJ made.


----------



## seifer0406

Game3525 said:


> Well, what did you want him to say? They asked him a question, and all he said was he wouldn't have done it, and that he played in a differant era.


MJ should've said that I never had to make that type of decision because my GM wasn't incompetent.


----------



## kflo

Game3525 said:


> Well granted, Wade is a higher ranked player in his era, then Chuck was in his. Wade is considered a top three player, while Chuck for the most part wasn't in his career.


barkley won an mvp, finished 2nd once, and finished 4th on a 37 win team (with another 4th in '90). wade finished 3rd once (with a 5th and 6th). they're on the same tier.


----------



## kflo

Game3525 said:


> And that isn't Jordan's point, Lebron is joining a top 3 player, like Magic and Larry were in their era......


he wanted to beat those guys because they were on the best teams. like kobe. who lebron didn't call. or have the opportunity to call. just like mj with magic and larry.


----------



## Adam

kflo said:


> barkley won an mvp, finished 2nd once, and finished 4th on a 37 win team (with another 4th in '90). wade finished 3rd once (with a 5th and 6th). they're on the same tier.


Many people thought Barkley was better than Jordan up until the 90's.


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> Barkley is not the spokesperson for MJ. You can't use his comments about Lebron going to Miami to reflect what MJ is thinking.
> 
> What MJ said is that he would not join guys that he was trying to beat. Wade and Bosh are the guys he joined so those 2 guys should be the ones the Lebron should be trying to beat. I'm saying how does that eliminate Melo and CP?


Yes I can use Barkley because he said "Me and Michael are 100% in agreement on this..." It eliminates Melo and CP because Melo and CP aren't the "Larry and Magic" of today's game. D-Wade and Kobe are. I don't see why it's so hard to relate to MJ's comment.



seifer0406 said:


> Which would be another comparison that's offbase because Lebron didn't join with 2 other top 3 players. Wade is arguably a top 3 player and Bosh is hardly top 10 or even top 15 in most rankings. CP on the other hand is top 5 in a lot of people's rankings. Not saying any of these rankings matter, but it's enough evidence to say that this criticism would work had Lebron asked CP to play with him. Melo on the other hand has been a rival to Lebron since they joined the league in 2003. Which is enough grounds to again fulfill the "You shouldn't join your rival" statement that MJ made.


Wade is not arguably a top-3 player. That's a certainty, and the opinion of just about anyone with an opinion on NBA players. Be serious, man.


----------



## kflo

BeeGee said:


> When you can tell me that Wade isn't one of the game's top 3 players, I can agree with your comment. Until then, it makes zero sense.


i see - top 3 players - off limits. top 4, fair game. got it. makes zero sense.


----------



## TheDarkPrince

Adam said:


> This isn't a fairy tale. This isn't Hoosiers. The guy switched teams. I've still yet to see any logical argument about how this diminishes his ability as a player.
> 
> Anybody who wants to argue that LeBron is classless because of this move and then use quotes from a scumbag like Jordan then they are seriously delusional. Jordan is as big a douche as they come.


Most greats are.Kobe, Shaq, Sir Charles, Karl Malone and yes Lebron are all well known *******s.


----------



## Game3525

kflo said:


> *he wanted to beat those guys because they were on the best teams.* like kobe. who lebron didn't call. or have the opportunity to call. just like mj with magic and larry.


Did Jordan tell you that? He wanted to beat those guys, not because they were on the best team, but because they were considered the two top players at the time, and Jordan has alway said one thing that drove him was to catch Bird and Magic.


----------



## kflo

Game3525 said:


> And that isn't Jordan's point, Lebron is joining a top 3 player, like Magic and Larry were in their era......


did jordan actually say he wouldn't join top 3, but was cool with 4-10?


----------



## BeeGee

kflo said:


> i see - top 3 players - off limits. top 4, fair game. got it. makes zero sense.


Either you're just playing dumb, or you have a proble with relativity. I'm gonna go with you're just playing dumb for the sake of an argument that you're struggling to make. There was MJ, Magic, Larry... and then there was everybody else.

Today there's Kobe, Lebron, Wade... and then there's everybody else. Like Game said, it's not rocket science here, but I guess playing dumb and pretending not to see the relation MJ was making in his statement, is another option too.


----------



## TheDarkPrince

kflo said:


> players today are too cozy. and too friendly.
> 
> not like the old days. they hated each other. would never go for that kind of fraternizing.


Make no mistake, Thomas would have taken Magic's head off if he had to. And the same goes with Magic to him. Players are too friendly nowadays. Also where are all the team rivalries? Are they any left?


----------



## seifer0406

BeeGee said:


> Yes I can use Barkley because he said "Me and Michael are 100% in agreement on this..." It eliminates Melo and CP because Melo and CP aren't the "Larry and Magic" of today's game. D-Wade and Kobe are. I don't see why it's so hard to relate to MJ's comment.


Uh no, try use that logic in court and see how that works out for you. Barkley is claiming that his thoughts are identical with MJ and then says something that MJ has never said. After those statements MJ said nothing to verify it.



> Wade is not arguably a top-3 player. That's a certainty, and the opinion of just about anyone with an opinion on NBA players. Be serious, man.


Show me an official list of player rankings. Until you do that everything is up to debate and that's being serious. Not that this forum means anything but in the top 10 player ranking thread just not long ago plenty of people placed Wade outside of top 3. In fact, a lot of people had CP ahead of him. Not saying they're correct but when you have enough of opinions that are opposite you have a debate and argument.


----------



## Game3525

TheDarkPrince said:


> Make no mistake, Thomas would have taken Magic's head off if he had to. And the same goes with Magic to him. Players are too friendly nowadays. Also where are all the team rivalries? Are they any left?


Also isn't the reason Magic and Isiah friendship cooled down is because Magic gave Zeke a hard foul in the finals?


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> Uh no, try use that logic in court and see how that works out for you. Barkley is claiming that his thoughts are identical with MJ and then says something that MJ has never said. After those statements MJ said nothing to verify that it.


We're not in court, seifer. Barkley simply prefaced his statement by announcing that he and Michael were 100% in agreement.


seifer0406 said:


> Show me an official list of player rankings. Until you do that everything is up to debate and that's being serious. Not that this forum means anything but in the top 10 player ranking thread just not long ago plenty of people placed Wade outside of top 3. In fact, a lot of people had CP ahead of him. Not saying they're correct but when you have enough of opinions that are opposite you have a debate and argument.


Again, we're not in court, and who ranks where will always be up for debate (anybody home?). 

That being said, I welcome you to start a thread on a vote of today's top 3 players.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> Barkley isn't Magic or Larry. Don't even try to go there.


Neither are Wade & Bosh. In fact, I'll go further and say that Bosh will never make anyone's all-time top 20 list. Not even his mom's. Wade's only chance of ever cracking that kind of company comes by teaming up with LeBron. No James and Wade & Bosh are just a solid playoff team that might never win a title and Wade go down in the same class as Alex English or Bernard King as a scoring machine "somewhere in the top 50". 

Charles Barkley was an all time great, and on nearly everyones all time top 20 lists. When people talk about the greatest power forwards to ever play the game, he's mentioned right up there with Timmeh and the Mailman. To pretend otherwise is simply ignorant.


----------



## seifer0406

BeeGee said:


> That being said, I welcome you to start a thread on a vote of today's top 3 players.


I'm not interested in finding out who's a top 3 player and that's not my point. All I am saying is CP is also considered an elite player and what you said is contradicting because if Lebron cannot play with Wade, he cannot play with CP.

But if you really want evidence that there are people who feels that Wade isn't a top 3 player, heres a lengthy thread that happened not long ago.

http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-forum/443572-top-10-players-league.html

Funny thing is that I actually placed Wade as #3 in my ranking. And GUESS WHAT I had to do? I had to argue with someone because they didn't find him to be #3. Funny how that happened eh? I mean define arguably.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> Neither are Wade & Bosh. In fact, I'll go further and say that Bosh will never make anyone's all-time top 20 list. Not even his mom's. Wade's only chance of ever cracking that kind of company comes by teaming up with LeBron. No James and Wade & Bosh are just a solid playoff team that might never win a title and Wade go down in the same class as Alex English or Bernard King as a scoring machine "somewhere in the top 50".
> 
> Charles Barkley was an all time great, and on nearly everyones all time top 20 lists. When people talk about the greatest power forwards to ever play the game, he's mentioned right up there with Timmeh and the Mailman. To pretend otherwise is simply ignorant.


Nobody's talking about Bosh here. In today's game, Kobe and D-Wade are the "Magic & Larry" to Lebron's "MJ". It's not that hard to relate, man. They're the other two best players in the game, and they both already have championships. 

Nobody is pretending Charles wasn't an all-time great, but that's neither here nor there. I'm sure you have enough history of the game to know good & well that during that time, it was Magic, Michael, and Larry... and then everyone else.

Michael was the only top-3 player without a championship. I think he was simply saying that there's no way he would've joined one of the other two top-3 guys in the game (both already champions) to chase a ring.

Today, it's Bron, Kobe, and D-Wade, and Bron is the only one without a championship.

It's pretty simple to understand what MJ was saying. Barkley was part of the "everyone else" group, just like Melo, CP3, D-Will, (etc) are. I think I get what MJ was saying, and I don't have a problem with it.


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> I'm not interested in finding out who's a top 3 player and that's not my point. All I am saying is CP is also considered an elite player and what you said is contradicting because if Lebron cannot play with Wade, he cannot play with CP.
> 
> But if you really want evidence that there are people who feels that Wade isn't a top 3 player, heres a lengthy thread that happened not long ago.
> 
> http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-forum/443572-top-10-players-league.html
> 
> Funny thing is that I actually placed Wade as #3 in my ranking. And GUESS WHAT I had to do? I had to argue with someone because they didn't find him to be #3. Funny how that happened eh? I mean define arguably.


Kobe and DWade are the other top-3 players in the league, whether the occasional person disagrees with it or not. More important towards the relationship MJ was making in his statement, Kobe and Wade are already champions, just like Larry and Magic were when MJ was trying to get his. 

Why is it so hard to connect?


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> Wade is not arguably a top-3 player. That's a certainty, and the opinion of just about anyone with an opinion on NBA players. Be serious, man.


It's certainly arguable. Because the opinion isn't universal. He didn't become the "unquestioned third best player" until five seconds after James made his announcement. Prior to that there was, and frankly still is, a lot of debate over CP3's spot in the top 6. I have had a good belly laugh, though, over you're continued slagging of Charles while turning D-Wade into an all time top 10 player.


----------



## seifer0406

You guys talk about not twisting MJ's words and it's funny how you guys end up altering it more than the people that simply question it's relevancy. I don't know how you can turn "Wouldn't play with guys that you should be trying to beat" to wouldn't play with another top 3 player. THAT'S twisting his words.

All I did was ask a legitimate question. MJ compared Wade and Bosh to Magic and Larry, guys that MJ had to go through to win a championship. Lebron on the other hand never had to go through Wade and Bosh at least up until now. He had to go through Kobe, Dwight, Boston trio, the butterfingers of Anderson Varejao, the shrinking testicles of Mo Williams, and the Houdini act of Antawn Jamison. Those were Lebron's nemisis', not Wade and Bosh.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> Nobody's talking about Bosh here. In today's game, Kobe and D-Wade are the "Magic & Larry" to Lebron's "MJ"


No they aren't. Well, Kobe is, Wade certainly isn't.


----------



## seifer0406

BeeGee said:


> Kobe and DWade are the other top-3 players in the league, whether the occasional person disagrees with it or not. More important towards the relationship MJ was making in his statement, Kobe and Wade are already champions, just like Larry and Magic were when MJ was trying to get his.
> 
> Why is it so hard to connect?


What is hard to connect is you failing to understand the term "Arguably". Stop using this forum as a dictionary and learn the damn word.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> It's certainly arguable. Because the opinion isn't universal. He didn't become the "unquestioned third best player" until five seconds after James made his announcement. Prior to that there was, and frankly still is, a lot of debate over CP3's spot in the top 6. I have had a good belly laugh, though, over you're continued slagging of Charles while turning D-Wade into an all time top 10 player.


Be serious, E.H. Wade being considered top-3 is not a new thing, lol. And you tranlating any of this as me trying to pimp D-Wade as a top-10 all-time player is just as laughable. Nobody is slighting Charles Barkley. Don't be ridiculous.


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> What is hard to connect is you failing to understand the term "Arguably". Stop using this forum as a dictionary and learn the damn word.


U mad? Relax, dude. It's a debate, not life & death. I'll put my money on Wade-James-Bryant as the top 3 in the league today. I'll take your money - thanks.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> No they aren't. Well, Kobe is, Wade certainly isn't.


certainly? How certain are you? Lol


----------



## Blue

E.H. Munro said:


> Neither are Wade & Bosh. In fact, I'll go further and say that Bosh will never make anyone's all-time top 20 list. Not even his mom's. Wade's only chance of ever cracking that kind of company comes by teaming up with LeBron. No James and Wade & Bosh are just a solid playoff team that might never win a title and Wade go down in the same class as Alex English or Bernard King as a scoring machine "somewhere in the top 50".
> 
> Charles Barkley was an all time great, and on nearly everyones all time top 20 lists. When people talk about the greatest power forwards to ever play the game, he's mentioned right up there with Timmeh and the Mailman. To pretend otherwise is simply ignorant.


Lol quit playing, Wade is easily a top 30 player by himself bro... Finals MVP, top 2 player statistically the last two years(according to PER), top 6 career PER all-time(if he retired right now)... If your boy Scottie is in your top 30 based on his individual stats, then Wade is easily top 30 based on his individual accolades. He's WAY ahead of Scottie at this point as an individual. Teaming up with LeBron(and assuming at least 3 rings) will likely cement him as a top 3-4 SG of all time. Comfortably top 20. Bosh might make the top 50 if they win abunch of rings. He's not too far off offensively, he just needs to step up his D and he'd have all the tools to be top 50.


----------



## kflo

BeeGee said:


> Either you're just playing dumb, or you have a proble with relativity. I'm gonna go with you're just playing dumb for the sake of an argument that you're struggling to make. There was MJ, Magic, Larry... and then there was everybody else.
> 
> Today there's Kobe, Lebron, Wade... and then there's everybody else. Like Game said, it's not rocket science here, but I guess playing dumb and pretending not to see the relation MJ was making in his statement, is another option too.


so in your "relativity" world, wade = magic/bird and not barkley or hakeem. that bird and magic were on perennial contenders is an inconsequential difference with wade. that they were multiple time champions and multiple time mvp's and top 5-10 players ever is inconsequential. that jordan had zero opportunity to play with either but more realistically could have teamed up with a commparable level player in barkley or hakeem is inconsequential. that he ACTUALLY teamed up with a top 5-10 player is inconsequential. what matters is that wade = magic/bird. obviously.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> Be serious, E.H. Wade being considered top-3 is not a new thing, lol.


Neither is Chris Paul as a top 3 player. Stop pretending otherwise. All I said is that the acclamation didn't become universal until after James' announcement, and even then wasn't universal except to guys like yourself.


----------



## O2K

seifer0406 said:


> You guys talk about not twisting MJ's words and it's funny how you guys end up altering it more than the people that simply question it's relevancy. I don't know how you can turn "Wouldn't play with guys that you should be trying to beat" to wouldn't play with another top 3 player. THAT'S twisting his words.
> 
> All I did was ask a legitimate question. MJ compared Wade and Bosh to Magic and Larry, guys that MJ had to go through to win a championship. Lebron on the other hand never had to go through Wade and Bosh at least up until now. He had to go through Kobe, Dwight, Boston trio, the butterfingers of Anderson Varejao, the shrinking testicles of Mo Williams, and the Houdini act of Antawn Jamison. Those were Lebron's nemisis', not Wade and Bosh.




It's not so much a comparison as it is Jordan making a point. He is essentially saying that Jordan wanted to LEAD his team to a championship and compete against the best instead of HELPING his team to a championship. There is nothing wrong with Jordan said. He essentially is saying he would rather play against the best then play with the best. Now one can say if Barkley or stockton or malone or something of that caliber was traded to the Bulls then Jordan would welcome that with open arms. That really isn't too much of a valid point. I mean do you think Jordan would say "If you trade for Barkley I want out?" Ofcourse he would welcome it. 

In other words what Jordan is saying is that he would not want to play on a "dream team" type scenerio. 

Lebron may very well be the best team on the heat but i think everyone knows (possibly except lebron) that it is Wade's team and wade will be leading the team. Now that may change in the future but as of the 2010-2011 season Lebron will not be the leader of the team.


----------



## BeeGee

kflo said:


> so in your "relativity" world, wade = magic/bird and not barkley or hakeem. that bird and magic were on perennial contenders is an inconsequential difference with wade. *that they were multiple time champions and multiple time mvp's and top 5-10 players ever is inconsequential.*


Magic and Larry being champions as the other two exhalted players in the league. Barkley and Dream were simply part of "everyone else". Stop pretending not to get this, man. Today, Kobe and DWade are the other two exhalted players in the NBA, and just like Larry & Magic, they both already have championships and have been Finals MVPs. Bron joining Wade to chase a title would've been like MJ joining one of the other exhalted already-champions (Larry/Magic) to chase his first title. I think that's what MJ was saying and him relating that time's top-3 to the top-3 of this time makes perfect sense.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Lol quit playing, Wade is easily a top 30 player by himself bro... Finals MVP, top 2 player statistically the last two years(according to PER), top 6 career PER all-time(if he retired right now)... If your boy Scottie is in your top 30 based on his individual stats, then Wade is easily top 30 based on his individual accolades. He's WAY ahead of Scottie at this point as an individual. Teaming up with LeBron(and assuming at least 3 rings) will likely cement him as a top 3-4 SG of all time. Comfortably top 20. Bosh might make the top 50 if they win abunch of rings. He's not too far off offensively, he just needs to step up his D and he'd have all the tools to be top 50.


Pippen is generally considered top 50, and we're not limiting the discussion to simple prime years (this before even getting into the worth or worthlessness of PER as an absolute evaluation tool). Pippen's career comes with his declining years built in, while Wade's career is mostly measuring his prime years. 

My statement was about Wade in history if James hadn't joined the Heat. The odds of Wade being listed on people's all time top ten or twenty lists are pretty remote if he isn't part of a dynasty. Lots of guys have won Finals MVPs without having any chance of cracking those sorts of lists. And historically speaking, Wade would have been viewed as being far closer to guys like Alex English or Bernard King than Magic or Larry without James there.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> Neither is Chris Paul as a top 3 player. Stop pretending otherwise. All I said is that the acclamation didn't become universal until after James' announcement, and even then wasn't universal except to guys like yourself.


Lol - you're smokin' if you think that DWade wasn't considered one of the game's top 3 players (along with Bron and Kobe) until AFTER he landed Bron as a teammate.

I don't even think you believe that, lol. But if having an argument means that much to you...


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> Magic and Larry being champions as the other two exhalted players in the league. Barkley and Dream were simply part of "everyone else". Stop pretending not to get this, man.


You can't possibly be serious. Olajuwon was considered an all time great even before Houston won its titles, and there was a very serious debate as Barkley being the greatest PF in the history of the NBA by the time he hit Phoenix. The only time those guys were ever part of "everyone else" was their rookie years.


----------



## kflo

BeeGee said:


> Magic and Larry being champions as the other two exhalted players in the league. Barkley and Dream were simply part of "everyone else". Stop pretending not to get this, man. Today, Kobe and DWade are the other two exhalted players in the NBA, and just like Larry & Magic, they both already have championships and have been Finals MVPs. Bron joining Wade to chase a title would've been like MJ joining one of the other exhalted already-champions (Larry/Magic) to chase his first title. I think that's what MJ was saying and him relating that time's top-3 to the top-3 of this time makes perfect sense.


stop pretending wade is anywhere near the pedestal magic and bird were on. and stop pretending that you can separate them as players from the fact that their teams were the dominant teams in the league (until passed by the pistons). stop pretending that wade is on this tier well beyond paul or howard or durant. you are inventing this top 3 differentiation as if it is what makes wade = magic/bird and the comparison solid. exalted. lol. he hasn't made the 2nd round since 2006 and he's exalted and naturally equivalent to magic/bird in the 80s. 

and most importantly, jordan is speaking of something that was never an option. of course he wouldn't have called magic or bird. it wasn't an option. just like lebron calling kobe wasn't an option. and kobe is really the only valid comparison to bird/magic, both because of his place in the game and the situation he's in.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> Lol - you're smokin' if you think that DWade wasn't considered one of the game's top 3 players (along with Bron and Kobe) until AFTER he landed Bron as a teammate.


_Some_ people so consider him, _your_ claim was that he was universally held to be the third best, but a simple look at any basketball forum top ten debate thread would show you that wasn't the case. If you're hung up on PER then in 2008 & 2009 CP3 racked up the highest scores any point guard has ever seen (second only to LBJ in the overall rankings). If you look at basketball as a game of possessions, as statistician Alex Hilliard does with his Ten+ ratings, you'd see that CP3 and LBJ were on one tier with everyone else trailing far behind. So, in fact, there is an actual debate over who the top players in the NBA are after LeBron. No matter how hard you pretend otherwise.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> You can't possibly be serious. Olajuwon was considered an all time great even before Houston won its titles, and there was a very serious debate as Barkley being the greatest PF in the history of the NBA by the time he hit Phoenix. The only time those guys were ever part of "everyone else" was their rookie years.


Don't be silly, man. It was Magic, Larry, and Michael. I was there just like you were. You sound stupid now. Dream is my favorite player of all-time, but he wasn't exhalted like Bird, Magic, and MJ were. NOBODY WAS. The funny thing is nobody's even arguing the all-time status of anyone, dude. The league's top-3 players were Magic, Michael, and Larry. Then came everybody else, period.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> _Some_ people so consider him, _your_ claim was that he was universally held to be the third best, but a simple look at any basketball forum top ten debate thread would show you that wasn't the case. If you're hung up on PER then in 2008 & 2009 CP3 racked up the highest scores any point guard has ever seen (second only to LBJ in the overall rankings). If you look at basketball as a game of possessions, as statistician Alex Hilliard does with his Ten+ ratings, you'd see that CP3 and LBJ were on one tier with everyone else trailing far behind. So, in fact, there is an actual debate over who the top players in the NBA are after LeBron. No matter how hard you pretend otherwise.


I'm not hung up on PER and it's not a stretch to say that Dwyane Wade, by and large, is regarded as a top-3 player in this league. I agree with that, and I don't need any statistician-devised ratings systems to make that determination, lol.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> Don't be silly, man. It was Magic, Larry, and Michael. I was there just like you were. You sound stupid now. Dream is my favorite player of all-time, but he wasn't exhalted like Bird, Magic, and MJ were. NOBODY WAS. The funny thing is nobody's even arguing the all-time status of anyone, dude. The league's top-3 players were Magic, Michael, and Larry. Then came everybody else, period.


It doesn't ****ing matter how they were "exalted". They were both considered among the greatest players to ever play their positions. _While they were in their primes_. There's no way to pretend otherwise.


----------



## BeeGee

kflo said:


> stop pretending wade is anywhere near the pedestal magic and bird were on. and stop pretending that you can separate them as players from the fact that their teams were the dominant teams in the league (until passed by the pistons). stop pretending that wade is on this tier well beyond paul or howard or durant. you are inventing this top 3 differentiation as if it is what makes wade = magic/bird and the comparison solid. exalted. lol. he hasn't made the 2nd round since 2006 and he's exalted and naturally equivalent to magic/bird in the 80s.
> 
> and most importantly, jordan is speaking of something that was never an option. of course he wouldn't have called magic or bird. it wasn't an option. just like lebron calling kobe wasn't an option. and kobe is really the only valid comparison to bird/magic, both because of his place in the game and the situation he's in.


Again, your failure to make a connection is tiresome, so there's no point in even bothering anymore. I never tried to put Wade on a platform equal to the one Magic, Michael, and Larry were on. It's actually not possible to do. But MJ simply made a relation to himself, Michael, and Larry (as the top-3 of that time) and Lebron, Wade, and whoever (obviously Kobe, but he did not mention a 3rd) of this time. This dead horse has been beaten enough. Take it how you want to take it. Make it mean what you need to make it mean. To each his own.


----------



## kflo

again, mj's position would make alot more sense if we were talking about kobe and the lakers. but we're not.


----------



## kflo

and '88 was bird's last year as a top 3 player.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> It doesn't ****ing matter how they were "exalted". They were both considered among the greatest players to ever play their positions. _While they were in their primes_. There's no way to pretend otherwise.


U mad? Relax dude, you've posted enough that I know you can distinguish the difference between a simple debate and a heated argument. This right here? This is a debate, because there simply is no argument, lol. Magic, Michael, and Larry were the top-3 in that time. Lebron, Kobe, and D-Wade are the top 3 today. Everyone else is just everyone else, whether they were all-time greats like Chuck and Dream. So what. They weren't the top-3, so they don't even belong in this debate.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> I'm not hung up on PER and it's not a stretch to say that Dwyane Wade, by and large, is regarded as a top-3 player in this league. I agree with that, and I don't need any statistician-devised ratings systems to make that determination, lol.


But it _is_ a stretch to say that there isn't a debate about the matter, because there most certainly is. And as possessions are the currency of basketball (much like outs are the currency of baseball), a player that produces more than 200 extra possessions for his team is pretty frigging valuable (because teams score on average a little over a point/possession, so the more possessions a player produces for his team the more points he's worth). 

My mention of PER and Ten+ aren't meant as a be all/end all statement of Paul's ranking so much as an observation that your claims of universal regard aren't true. Even if we revert to your nebulous "exalted" evaluation there's no universe where Wade's as "exalted" as The Dead President or Mr. Bean. In fact, he'd be "everyone else" as surely as The Dream or Sir Charles.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> U mad? Relax dude, you've posted enough that I know you can distinguish the difference between a simple debate and a heated argument.


I lead the forum in asterisks. In fact, when it comes to asterisks I'm the mother****ing Michael Jordan of this forum.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> But it _is_ a stretch to say that there isn't a debate about the matter, becazuse their most certainly is. And as possessions are the currency of basketball (much like outs are the currency of baseball), a player that produces more than 200 extra possessions for his team is pretty frigging valuable (because teams score on average a little over a point/possession, so the more possessions a player produces for his team the more points he's worth). And my mention of PER and Ten+ aren't meant as a be all/end all statement of Paul's ranking so much as an observation that your claims of universal regard aren't true. Even if we revert to your nebulous "exalted" evaluation there's no universe where Wade's as "exalted" as The Dead President or Mr. Bean. In fact, he'd be "everyone else" as surely as The Dream or Sir Charles.


By and large, Wade, Bryant, and James are regarded as the top-3 players in the game. Unless you can make a case against that, we really have nothing else to discuss. Same thing with Magic, Michael, and Larry. None of this other babble is even instrumental, E.H. 

It's why Michaels said "Magic and Larry" not "Hakeem and Charles" lol.

Be serious, man. They were the other two, and they were champions. Same as Kobe and D-Wade. Any other player is not a part of this discussion, no matter how much you try and jam them in.


----------



## kflo

BeeGee said:


> U mad? Relax dude, you've posted enough that I know you can distinguish the difference between a simple debate and a heated argument. This right here? This is a debate, because there simply is no argument, lol. Magic, Michael, and Larry were the top-3 in that time. Lebron, Kobe, and D-Wade are the top 3 today. Everyone else is just everyone else, whether they were all-time greats like Chuck and Dream. So what. They weren't the top-3, so they don't even belong in this debate.


bird wasn't top 3 after 88. so '89 and later, top 3 included someone other than bird. take your pick.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> By and large, Wade, Bryant, and James are regarded as the top-3 players in the game.


No, LeBron is regarded as the best, and Kobe as #2. The next three spots were debated between Wade, Paul & Howard until this year when Durant joined them. And there most certainly is a debate here, no matter how hard you continue to pretend that there isn't. It's _your_ claim that the regard is universal, as I've already presented concrete evidence to the contrary you need to come up with something more than "Well I don't think its arguable". You may not, lots of other people do.


----------



## kflo

BeeGee said:


> By and large, Wade, Bryant, and James are regarded as the top-3 players in the game. Unless you can make a case against that, we really have nothing else to discuss. Same thing with Magic, Michael, and Larry. None of this other babble is even instrumental, E.H.
> 
> It's why Michaels said "Magic and Larry" not "Hakeem and Charles" lol.
> 
> Be serious, man. They were the other two, and they were champions. Same as Kobe and D-Wade. Any other player is not a part of this discussion, no matter how much you try and jam them in.


and the fact that the lakers and the celtics were the teams to beat when jordan came into the league is inconsequential? 

yes, you can rationalize jordan's point to be relevant - he only meant top 3, and he only meant 1985-1988. but it's really not. again, kobe is the only one in a comparable position as bird/magic. and lebron didn't call kobe.


----------



## BeeGee

kflo said:


> bird wasn't top 3 after 88. so '89 and later, top 3 included someone other than bird. take your pick.


Obviously, MJ was referring to a time when He, Magic, and Michael were the top-3, much like Kobe, Lebron, and DWade are the top 3 of today. Dead horse.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> I lead the forum in asterisks. In fact, when it comes to asterisks I'm the mother****ing Michael Jordan of this forum.


I think Seifer wants to be your Scottie Pippen...


----------



## seifer0406

O2K said:


> It's not so much a comparison as it is Jordan making a point. He is essentially saying that Jordan wanted to LEAD his team to a championship and compete against the best instead of HELPING his team to a championship. There is nothing wrong with Jordan said. He essentially is saying he would rather play against the best then play with the best. Now one can say if Barkley or stockton or malone or something of that caliber was traded to the Bulls then Jordan would welcome that with open arms. That really isn't too much of a valid point. I mean do you think Jordan would say "If you trade for Barkley I want out?" Ofcourse he would welcome it.
> 
> In other words what Jordan is saying is that he would not want to play on a "dream team" type scenerio.
> 
> Lebron may very well be the best team on the heat but i think everyone knows (possibly except lebron) that it is Wade's team and wade will be leading the team. Now that may change in the future but as of the 2010-2011 season Lebron will not be the leader of the team.


Again with the interpretations. The bottom line is Jordan said he wouldn't play with guys that he wanted to beat. It has nothing to do with who is leading the team, it has nothing to do with Lebron going to another team or have guys come to him, it has nothing to do with playing with a top 3 or top 4 player, it has nothing to do with playing on a dream team.

I took what MJ said at face value and asked a simple question. Instead of giving me all of your interpretations of what MJ's statement, just answer my question of why MJ compared guys that he tried to beat to guys that Lebron wasn't trying to beat. Simple as that. I'm not spinning anybody's words, I'm not even attempting to over-analyze what he's trying to say.

The most hilarious thing out of all this is BeeGee's inability to understand the word arguably. Nobody is saying that Wade isn't a top 3 player, all we're saying is there are plenty of people who thinks otherwise. We showed evidence of that through threads, we could also get articles by writers, polls, you name it. It's absolutely ridiculous when you think of the fact that even if Wade is an universal #3, the idea that playing with #3 is taboo yet playing with #4 is perfectly fine is just as retarded.


----------



## f22egl

futuristxen said:


> And then when that didn't work out he got himself traded to the Rockets to play with Hakeem and Pippen.
> 
> I'm sure if the Heat offered Barkley the 12th man spot on this team to get a ring right now, he'd take it.
> 
> Charles Barkley and Karl Malone are the two best reasons for Lebron to do what he did. Neither of those guys will ever get their full due because they got no rings on their fingers.



Barkely didn't join Pippen and Olajuwon when he was in his prime; same with Malone and the Lakers. That's the difference.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> Obviously, MJ was referring to a time when He, Magic, and Michael were the top-3, much like Kobe, Lebron, and DWade are the top 3 of today. Dead horse.


Then the quote makes even less sense as he wasn't a free agent until _after_ the 1988 season. And while Magic might have been "exalted" Charles Barkley was in that same class by then.


----------



## E.H. Munro

f22egl said:


> Barkely didn't join Pippen and Olajuwon when he was in his prime; same with Malone and the Lakers. That's the difference.


But he did join a 50+ Suns team. Just as Moses Malone joined the Eastern Conference champions.


----------



## S.jR.

He went from.. 










to.. 










ha!


----------



## f22egl

But as Barkely would say, he didn't join one of the top 4-5 players in the game and no one disputed that he was the best player on that team. I'm guessing Barkely wouldn't have had a problem if LeBron had joined the Chicago Bulls, Knicks, or Nets.


----------



## kflo

BeeGee said:


> Obviously, MJ was referring to a time when He, Magic, and Michael were the top-3, much like Kobe, Lebron, and DWade are the top 3 of today. Dead horse.


lol - because jordan specifically said top 3 players. 

there were 2 years where jordan, magic and bird were the consensus top 3. 

and again, irrelevant that bird/magic also played on the top team those years.


----------



## kflo

f22egl said:


> But as Barkely would say, he didn't join one of the top 4-5 players in the game and no one disputed that he was the best player on that team. I'm guessing Barkely wouldn't have had a problem if LeBron had joined the Chicago Bulls, Knicks, or Nets.


lol - you think barkley would have objected being traded to the spurs or rockets or magic?


----------



## Jakain

Yea it seems to be about winning as the no. 1 guy when it comes to Barkley and his beef with James/Heat. Thats one of the bigger legacy roadblocks for Kobe Bryant versus Michael Jordan; not having 6 Finals MVP's and playing with the most dominant player in the modern NBA in a prime Shaq.


----------



## f22egl

Perhaps, LeBron should get more credit for wanting to win, rather than wanting to be the man, if that's any consolation. That could be his legacy. We'll find out how great LeBron is when the Heat face any real adversity.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> No, LeBron is regarded as the best, and Kobe as #2. The next three spots were debated between Wade, Paul & Howard until this year when Durant joined them. And there most certainly is a debate here, no matter how hard you continue to pretend that there isn't. It's _your_ claim that the regard is universal, as I've already presented concrete evidence to the contrary you need to come up with something more than "Well I don't think its arguable". You may not, lots of other people do.


Negative. Wade is widely regarded as top-3. You're just pretending he isn't. It's something that doesn't require digging up cornball ratings systems constructed by mad scientists. And post-winning the championship, a lot of people have been stating that Kobe is still the best, so how can you put him at #2 so assuredly and disregard Wade altogether? Either way, Wade is widely regarded as top-3. You know it as well as I do. There is no argument here.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> Then the quote makes even less sense as he wasn't a free agent until _after_ the 1988 season. And while Magic might have been "exalted" Charles Barkley was in that same class by then.


As I said, Micheal mentioned Magic and Larry, not Charles and Hakeem. He did that for a reason, I'm sure. Nobody is slighting Barkley or Dream, but they're not part of this discussion.


----------



## kflo

to reiterate - jordan, magic and bird were the best players for 2 years - '87 and '88. jordan's 2rd and 3rd full seasons. they went from 40 to 50 wins from '87 to '88. they were an up and coming team, and bird and magic's dynasty's were coming to an end (as was bird's health). there's really no parallel for jordan to make an analogy. and of course, it wasn't a valid option. try and rationalize it as if he could have done the same thing but chose not to. and only with bird and magic.


----------



## kflo

BeeGee said:


> As I said, Micheal mentioned Magic and Larry, not Charles and Hakeem. He did that for a reason, I'm sure. Nobody is slighting Barkley or Dream, but they're not part of this discussion.


so in 1987 and 1988 jordan didn't call up larry and magic and say lets play together. his 2nd and 3rd full seasons. when magic was repeating as champ. wow, what a dramatic statement.


----------



## BeeGee

kflo said:


> to reiterate - jordan, magic and bird were the best players for 2 years - '87 and '88. jordan's 2rd and 3rd full seasons. they went from 40 to 50 wins from '87 to '88. they were an up and coming team, and bird and magic's dynasty's were coming to an end (as was bird's health). there's really no parallel for jordan to make an analogy. and of course, it wasn't a valid option. try and rationalize it as if he could have done the same thing but chose not to. and only with bird and magic.


Mike wasn't tripping at all. He went on to say 

"But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

So the man is basically saying that even if he had the same opportunity back then, he wouldn't have done it because he wanted to beat those guys. I don't have a problem with anything he or Charles said. It's sad to see the league's best player reduced to quitting on his franchise and bail out to join another top-3 player and a top-10/15 player. Lebron basically put himself on a national TV grandstand and said "Hey everybody, I QUIT." It's hard for a lot of people, including all-time greats, to respect a b****-move of that magnitude from a reigning MVP and self-proclaimed "Chosen 1". 

To each his own - moving on...


----------



## kflo

did barkley quit in philly?

we get that you believe lebron quit so you're rationalizing what these guys said. but barkley quit in philly, and mj had no chance to call magic or bird to join forces. that he's saying he wouldn't have 25 years later is kinda pointless. and the fact is he ended up with a top 5-10 player next to him.


----------



## PauloCatarino

kflo said:


> did barkley quit in philly?


Yup.



> we get that you believe lebron quit so you're rationalizing what these guys said. but barkley quit in philly, and mj had no chance to call magic or bird to join forces. that he's saying he wouldn't have 25 years later *is kinda pointless*. and the fact is he ended up with a top 5-10 player next to him.


I wouldn't say it's "pointless", because it's an obvious knock on Lebron (wether Ol' Baldy meant what he said or not). 
But why should Jordan's opinion matter?
Meh.


----------



## Maravilla

Honestly I really dont think MJ's situation can compare... He never had to make that choice because the Bulls made a commitment to put talent around him, ALA Pippen in a draft day STEAL, Rodman and several other top notch role players. Jordan left to K on curveballs and those Bulls teams dropped from a 57 win team to a 55 win team in his limited absence. Lets find out how far the Cavs supporting cast will carry this team next year.

The best talent Cleveland put next to Lebron was Antawn Jamison? A 1,000,000 year old Shaq? Larry Hughes? You kidding me? Cleveland as an organization did not commit to James nearly as much as James committed to them in the time he was there.

Kobe used nearly the exact same leverage several years ago when he demanded trades and raged on his teammates/management. Difference is the Lakers showed why they are the Lakers and committed to putting talent around Kobe. I dont get why people rag on James when he actually followed through and left after the organization didnt commit to him.

I have no problem with James doing what he feels best for HIM. Especially after an organization left him out to dry and labeled him a quitter after posting a Chamberlainesque triple double in an elimination game...? Serious? I wish I was good enough to be labeled a quitter after dropping 27 19 and 10...

The decision was fine and probably the right one.. Execution was terrible.. but otherwise I have no qualms with it at all.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

BeeGee said:


> Negative. Wade is widely regarded as top-3. You're just pretending he isn't. It's something that doesn't require digging up cornball ratings systems constructed by mad scientists. And post-winning the championship, a lot of people have been stating that Kobe is still the best, so how can you put him at #2 so assuredly and disregard Wade altogether? Either way, Wade is widely regarded as top-3. You know it as well as I do. There is no argument here.


Wade isn't not widely regarded as a top 3 player. He is arguably a top 3 player. LeBron is universally #1 and Kobe is universally #2, Wade is not universally #3. He has a good argument for it, but it's not a no-brainer like LeBron and Kobe's spots. 

*In the poll for top 10 players a month ago:*
LeBron was voted top three 39 out of 39 votes. 
Kobe was voted top three 33 out of 39 votes. 
Wade was voted top three 19 out of 39 votes. 

It's really the top 2 that is universal at this point. 3 through 6 is a toss-up. Half of the people voting didn't even vote Wade as top 3.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> Negative. Wade is widely regarded as top-3. You're just pretending he isn't.


Ummm.... *NO*

Let's review, shall we?

"Wade is arguably a top 3 player"

Your response, "Arguably? Ha! He's absolutely the third best player in the game without argument"

Others, "Actually, there kinda is a debate about just where he ranks in that group of five guys following LeBron."

Your response, "That's stupid, no one is seriously debating that."

My response, "Actually, statistically speaking there really is a debate on where Wade falls in that second group of five, and there are even advanced statisticians that will tell you that Chris Paul belongs in the same class with LeBron and that it's top 2, next four rather than LeBron and the next five."

I've even presented examples. Thanks for finally acknowledging, though, that it actually is arguable. Now you just need to accept that Wade isn't "exalted", hasn't ever been "exalted" and in your "exalted scale" falls into the "everyone else" category and you'll finally be on speaking terms with Mr. Reality.


----------



## O2K

Personally I don't think wade is a top 3 player. When healthy i see him as a top 5. He could be top 3 but he's not a solid top 3.


----------



## E.H. Munro

I need to get Alex to use his account here (he's anh2167), he's better at singing Chris Paul's praises than I am. While hesitant about adopting his position about Paul/James being the big two, I do generally think that when healthy, he's the second best player in the game. New Orleans performance with him and without him this year should be pretty instructive.


----------



## BeeGee

Groucho is funny. Dude just play around with google and you'll see what I'm saying is true. Dwyane Wade is regarded as top 3. You'll find some spots like Fanhouse that go with Paul, but by and large, you'll see Wade's name right behind Kobe and Lebron's much more than you will any other. And no this isn't some phenomenon that "The Decision" gave a surprise birth to either. You'll have to find another arguing point because this one is just weak, man.


----------



## Blue

Sir Patchwork said:


> Wade isn't not widely regarded as a top 3 player. He is arguably a top 3 player. LeBron is universally #1 and Kobe is universally #2, Wade is not universally #3. He has a good argument for it, but it's not a no-brainer like LeBron and Kobe's spots.
> 
> *In the poll for top 10 players a month ago:*
> LeBron was voted top three 39 out of 39 votes.
> Kobe was voted top three 33 out of 39 votes.
> Wade was voted top three 19 out of 39 votes.
> 
> It's really the top 2 that is universal at this point. 3 through 6 is a toss-up. Half of the people voting didn't even vote Wade as top 3.


Statistically Wade is top 3 player, THAT isn't really arguable. He's had a top 4 PER on FOUR different occasions, including 3 seasons within the top 2... #4 in PER in 05-06, #1 in PER in 06-07, #2 in PER the past 2 seasons... Not saying PER is everything, but purely speaking statistics, Dwyane Wade is a proven top 3 player.

Now if you want to talk about scoring repertoire, leadership, clutch/takeover ability, positional value, or whatever other intangibles you can think of to put people over him, then go ahead... Whether or not he's a top 3 player statistically, that's not really debateable tho, just because a few guys on message board prefer another guys game. 

Take me, I prefer Kobe's game over LeBron, but that doesn't change the fact Lebron is still consistently the top player in the league statistically. Jakain prefers Pau Gasol over Dwight, but Dwight is still better than Pau statistically. What random ppl vote, doesn't really change the reality. So I have to agree with BeeGee. Statistically speaking, Dwyane Wade has proven a top 3 player and it's not really arguable if u look @ in that manner.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> Groucho is funny. Dude just play around with google and you'll see what I'm saying is true. Dwyane Wade is regarded as top 3. You'll find some spots like Fanhouse that go with Paul, but by and large, you'll see Wade's name right behind Kobe and Lebron's much more than you will any other.


You're getting closer, now conceding that there are lots of people that consider it a debatable point. Now you've resorted to the "But experts all consider..." except that I cut you off at the flank there. Experts in fact do debate that point and I gave you concrete evidence of that. And, in any event, on your "exalted" scale Wade still doesn't qualify.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Statistically Wade is top 3 player, THAT isn't really arguable. He's had a top 4 PER on FOUR different occasions, including 3 seasons within the top 2... #4 in PER in 05-06, #1 in PER in 06-07, #2 in PER the past 2 seasons... Not saying PER is everything, but purely speaking statistics, Dwyane Wade is a proven top 3 player.


Do you know who isn't on those lists? 

And it's still a debatable point as many people have a different order for 2-6 on their lists.


----------



## kflo

again, the top 3 thing is a red herring. bird and magic were only top 3 jordan's 2nd and 3rd full seasons. after that, you could argue between a couple guys. again, circa 1989, i'm pretty sure both barkley and jordan would have welcomed each other to their respective teams. after all, they needed the help. jordan's happened to arrive internally. barkley's never did. so he forced his way out (quitter!).


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> You're getting closer, now conceding that there are lots of people that consider it a debatable point. Now you've resorted to the "But experts all consider..." except that I cut you off at the flank there. Experts in fact do debate that point and I gave you concrete evidence of that. And, in any event, on your "exalted" scale Wade still doesn't qualify.


It does qualify because you haven't refuted it. Your statement was that Wade's exhalted status is only 3 weeks old. So who is being more ridiculous here, Groucho? Maybe you better try cutting me off somewhere else. Better yet, maybe just lurk on another thread for me to say something you can jump in on. You seem to do that pretty well. The fact that opinions are like ***holes doesn't make the opinion that Dwyane Wade isn't a top-3 player an easy one to prove, lol.


----------



## Blue

E.H. Munro said:


> *Do you know who isn't on those lists?*
> 
> And it's still a debatable point as many people have a different order for 2-6 on their lists.


Who Dwight or Gerald? Lol, but like I said, people will use positional value and other random variables to put their favorite players ahead of others... 

In regards to the last 2 years tho, Dwyane Wade HAS been the 2nd best player in the league in terms of INDIVIDUAL statistics. That really is NOT debatable, regardless of who or where you have him in your PERSONAL top 6. 

Now whether someone like Kobe or someone else is sacrificing greater personal stats for the sake of being on a great team, i guess you can argue for that... LeBron claims he can score more and be the scoring the champ 'if feels like it'. But since he didn't feel obligated to do so, we will just have to go by what we have. Statistically, there might be a small argument but not very much of a good one to say Wade is not top 3 tho.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> It does qualify because you haven't refuted it. Your statement was that Wade's exhalted status is only 3 weeks old.


For the second time... *NO*

My actual statement was Wade only became the universally acclaimed third best player in the NBA five seconds after James made his announcement and even then it was only people like yourself proclaiming him such. The original statement that you threw a fit to was that Wade was arguably top 3 (which is true), your claim was that it isn't debated at all. In fact, it generally is. 

Wade's teams have been so bad since the title year that he's gotten a short shrift in all these debates. As little as a few months ago, amidst all the "Durant for MVP!!!" chatter, there was very little talk about Wade being in the same class as James or Bryant. The talk was all about whether KD had joined the Dead President & Mr. Bean in separating themselves from the rest of the top 6. If you talk to advanced metrics people, they debate the order after LBJ as well. So, again, for about the sixteenth time. Wade isn't "exalted" like Magic & Bird, and remains one of "everyone else".


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Who Dwight or Gerald?


Mr. Bean, so if PER is the be-all and end-all Kobe isn't a top five player. 



Blue Magic said:


> In regards to the last 2 years tho, Dwyane Wade HAS been the 2nd best player in the league in terms of INDIVIDUAL statistics. That really is NOT debatable, regardless of who or where you have him in your PERSONAL top 6.


You can say that it isn't debatable, but it really is. If Paul hadn't been injured this year there'd be pretty close to zero chance that Wade was considered top 3. (Until the LBJ signing, that is. Let's face it, Wade could have been injured all of last year and would still have vaulted to the top of certain people's lists the moment that announcement was made.)


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> For the second time... *NO*
> 
> My actual statement was Wade only became the universally acclaimed third best player in the NBA five seconds after James made his announcement and even then it was only people like yourself proclaiming him such. The original statement that you threw a fit to was that Wade was arguably top 3 (which is true), your claim was that it isn't debated at all. In fact, it generally is.
> 
> Wade's teams have been so bad since the title year that he's gotten a short shrift in all these debates. As little as a few months ago, amidst all the "Durant for MVP!!!" chatter, there was very little talk about Wade being in the same class as James or Bryant. The talk was all about whether KD had joined the Dead President & Mr. Bean in separating themselves from the rest of the top 6. If you talk to advanced metrics people, they debate the order after LBJ as well. So, again, for about the sixteenth time. Wade isn't "exalted" like Magic & Bird, and remains one of "everyone else".


I don't see it debated much at all, actually. Most of the time, the debate begins after running down that James, Bryant, and Wade are the cream of the crop. Paul's injury hurt his status a little bit, but Wade has been regarded top 3 much longer than a 3-week span, man. The Durant-for-MVP stuff was just that. I didn't hear Durant in many top-3 right now debates, mostly people forecasting that he was a future threat. There's really not much of a dispute about it, and hasn't been for some time. It's Bron, Kobe, and Wade, and it's not rocket science, man.


----------



## Blue

E.H. Munro said:


> Mr. Bean, so if PER is the be-all and end-all Kobe isn't a top five player.


I already said it's not the be-all end-all and explained myself, so I dont even need to respond to this.



> You can say that it isn't debatable, but it really is. If Paul hadn't been injured this year there'd be pretty close to zero chance that Wade was considered top 3. (Until the LBJ signing, that is. Let's face it, Wade could have been injured all of last year and would still have vaulted to the top of certain people's lists the moment that announcement was made.)


Well Paul wasn't injured last year and Wade still had a better PER than him, so i'm not really following... Are you implying people would use positional value to vault Paul ahead of Wade??


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> I don't see it debated much at all, actually. Most of the time, the debate begins after running down that James, Bryant, and Wade are the cream of the crop. Paul's injury hurt his status a little bit, but Wade has been regarded top 3 much longer than a 3-week span, man. The Durant-for-MVP stuff was just that. I didn't hear Durant in many top-3 right now debates, mostly people forecasting that he was a future threat. There's really not much of a dispute about it, and hasn't been for some time. It's Bron, Kobe, and Wade, and it's not rocket science, man.


Wade is, and remains _arguably_ a top 3 player because there are about four guys that rotate in and out of the #3 spot in peoples lists. It's been demonstrated that it happens among fans, I've demonstrated that the discussion happens amongst experts. Now you've created a nebulous "everybody" that doesn't debate it who strangely can't be found anywhere.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> I already said it's not the be-all end-all and explained myself, so I dont even need to respond to this.


It was your entire case for Wade being "undebatably a top 3 player".



Blue Magic said:


> Well Paul wasn't injured last year and Wade still had a better PER than him, so i'm not really following... Are you implying people would use positional value to vault Paul ahead of Wade? How would you explain that...?


There's my point, .4 separates the two players, and to you those four tenths of a point make the point inarguable. Are you still insisting that you don't consider it to be the be-all/end-all or are you now conceding that Mr. Bean isn't a top 5 player? And Paul had four more win shares than Wade last year, does that mean to someone that considers that statistic the be-all/end-all that Paul's the second best player in the NBA?


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> Wade is, and remains _arguably_ a top 3 player because there are about four guys that rotate in and out of the #3 spot in peoples lists. It's been demonstrated that it happens among fans, I've demonstrated that the discussion happens amongst experts. Now you've created a nebulous "everybody" that doesn't debate it who strangely can't be found anywhere.


Like I said, opinions being as common as ***holes doesn't make it a valid argument. It's just makes people able to argue it. There were publishings like USA Today making arguments that he was the league's best player years ago, and publications like bleacherreport placing him in the top 3 two years ago. By and large, you won't see another player placed alongside Kobe and Bron with the consistency that you'll see Wade placed there. It's not even close, so give a wink to the ocassional Chris Paul choice, and a nod to the ocassional Garnett or Durant sighting. When you're done, look up and face the reality that the game's top-3 players are Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, and Dwyane Wade.


----------



## Blue

E.H. Munro said:


> It was your entire case for Wade being "undebatably a top 3 player".


No, I said statistically speaking, it is pretty much undebatable right now. I had Wade in my top 2, BEFORE LeBron or Bosh decided to piggy back him, for the very same reason. Just check the other thread. My rankings are typically based on what I can prove. Statistically, there is not much argument for anybody else over Wade right now, aside from Lebron. Once again, purely in regards to statistics.



> There's my point, .4 separates the two players, and to you those four one tenths of a point make the point inarguable. Are you still insisting that you don't don't consider it to be the be-all/end-all or are you now conceding that Mr. Bean isn't a top 5 player?


People will look @ other things and have their personal preferences, like i said, but those other things don't change what the statistics say. Kobe is one of my favorite players so of course I think he is a top 5, but if the #'s im looking @ say Wade or Paul had a better season then i would put them over him, cause I cant prove it with the #'s. Positional value is pretty much moot when your dealing with PG-SF, so it's tough for me to argue for Kobe anymore. He's on the other side of his prime, but i still like him personally over LeBron. I wouldn't dare try to argue it though, I understand it's just a personal preference. That seems to be the problem. People cant differentiate personal preferences from facts.


----------



## kflo

Again, its moot, because jordan would have gladly accepted hakeem or barkley on his team in 1989. And barkley bailed on philly and would have gladly been traded to a team with a top 3 player. They're both talking out of their ass.


----------



## kflo

Again, its moot, because jordan would have gladly accepted hakeem or barkley on his team in 1989. And barkley bailed on philly and would have gladly been traded to a team with a top 3 player. They're both talking out of their ass. But its ok if it supports your own view.


----------



## Game3525

And here comes Magic.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5395989


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> No, I said statistically speaking, it is pretty much undebatable right now.


Except that prior to Paul being injured this year it _was_ debatable and _was_ debated. CP3's injury issues pushed him off the spot, but I guarantee you that he'll be back in the discussion next season now that he's healthy.



Blue Magic said:


> I had Wade in my top 2, BEFORE LeBron or Bosh decided to piggy back him, for the very same reason. Just check the other thread. My rankings are typically based on what I can prove. Statistically, there is not much argument for anybody else over Wade right now, aside from Lebron. Once again, purely in regards to statistics.


Purely in regard to statistics this is bull****. When one looks at the advanced metrics, while Wade leads in some (PER) Paul leads in others (Win Shares, Ten+). In Ten+, which looks at possessions generated, CP3 was one of only two players with a Ten+ over 200 for 2009. No one else was even close. If you look at scoring efficiency Paul scored much more efficiently than Wade in 2009, if you look at the O-Rat/D-Rat numbers Paul's offensive rating was more than 20% higher than Wade's while Wade's defensive rating was about 1.5% over CP3's. So, _again_, there's no way that this _isn't_ debatable.




BeeGee said:


> Like I said, opinions being as common as ***holes doesn't make it a valid argument. It's just makes people able to argue it. There were publishings like USA Today making arguments that he was the league's best player years ago, and publications like bleacherreport placing him in the top 3 two years ago.


And there are journals that don't. And amongst the advanced metrics types there are very serious discussions of how to rank the guys not named LeBron. _Your_ opinion doesn't invalidate those of other people.


----------



## Blue

kflo said:


> Again, its moot, because jordan would have gladly accepted hakeem or barkley on his team in 1989. And barkley bailed on philly and would have gladly been traded to a team with a top 3 player. They're both talking out of their ass. But its ok if it supports your own view.


SO what, Barkely quit on Philly. At least he didn't join another Mt. Rushore figure from his era until he was past his prime tho, w/ Hakeem... Fact is, LeBron is pushing the easy button.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Game3525 said:


> And here comes Magic.....
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5395989


Did he explain why he didn't leave the Lakers for a team without a top 5 all time player so that he could prove himself?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Game3525 said:


> And here comes Magic.....
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5395989


haha. He sure didn't have a problem playing with Kareem and Worthy. These guys are hypocrites.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> SO what, Barkely quit on Philly. At least he didn't join another Mt. Rushore figure from his era until he was past his prime tho, w/ Hakeem... Fact is, LeBron is pushing the easy button.


He went to a team whose star point guard generally finishes in the top 10 all time at his spot.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Blue Magic said:


> SO what, Barkely quit on Philly. At least he didn't join another Mt. Rushore figure from his era until he was past his prime tho, w/ Hakeem... Fact is, LeBron is pushing the easy button.


I didn't hear all of this "easy button" talk when Paul was rumored to be coming to Orlando to join another top 5 player. 

LeBron is a threat to Jordan's goat status and it's got people in a frenzy. They are reaching hard with their criticisms and inventing reasons why he can't be the GOAT, knowing full-well he is still a big threat.


----------



## Blue

E.H. Munro said:


> Except that prior to Paul being injured this year it _was_ debatable and _was_ debated. CP3's injury issues pushed him off the spot, but I guarantee you that he'll be back in the discussion next season now that he's healthy.
> 
> 
> 
> Purely in regard to statistics this is bull****. When one looks at the advanced metrics, while Wade leads in some (PER) Paul leads in others (Win Shares, Ten+). In Ten+, which looks at possessions generated, CP3 was one of only two players with a Ten+ over 200 for 2009. No one else was even close. If you look at scoring efficiency Paul scored much more efficiently than Wade in 2009, if you look at the O-Rat/D-Rat numbers Paul's offensive rating was more than 20% higher than Wade's while Wade's defensive rating was about 1.5% over CP3's. So, _again_, there's no way that this _isn't_ debatable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And there are journals that don't. And amongst the advanced metrics types there are very serious discussions of how to rank the guys not named LeBron. _Your_ opinion doesn't invalidate those of other people.


Ok, so you like LeBron, Paul, & Wade in your top 3... Where's the problem??


----------



## Jakain

Pfft, the past greats had no problem teaming up to take on the likes of Angola and the rest of the under-developed basketball world


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Ok, so you like LeBron, Paul, & Wade in your top 3... Where's the problem??


Actually I generally put Wade in fourth behind LBJ/Bryant/Paul. He's most certainly the Bernard King of this era, and now that LBJ is going to Orlando to be the 21st century Magic he's going to end up much higher on everyones all time lists than he would otherwise have done. 

You look at the respective surrounding casts for Cleveland and Miami these last few years, and Shawn Marion was probably the best player outside James & Wade on either roster. But Miami's been garbage. Next year the Heat will go from a 47 win team to a 65+ win team, and that certain section of the crowd will insist that it's entirely Wade's doing while the Cleveland Cadavaliers are winning 28 games and the very same people will make excuses for the difference between them with and without LeBron.


----------



## Ron

Sir Patchwork said:


> haha. He sure didn't have a problem playing with Kareem and Worthy. These guys are hypocrites.


How is Magic a hypocrite?

Kareem was already on the team when Magic was drafted by the Lakers. Worthy was drafted two years later.

Magic stayed with one team his own career. I don't understand your basis in calling Magic a hypocrite.


----------



## seifer0406

This discussion has really made a retarded turn.

You can make all the statistical claims but the fact remains that there isn't an official list out there that ranks these players. That's why it's arguable.

Moreover, even if Wade has Paul beat convincing in stats (Which he does not), the simple fact that there is a large number of people believing that Paul is better proves the thing is up to debate. So unless you want to convince me that those people don't exist, I really don't see where your point stands. If people are arguing about it, it's arguable, simple as that.

But enough of that, let's get back to the topic. Even if Wade is universally considered #3 and Paul is considered #4, or #5, why in the world is it ok for Lebron to play with a #3 but not with a #4. Is the difference that extreme to the point where Lebron goes from hero to zero because of it? It's ridiculous. 

That's what I've been saying this whole time, you guys are trying to take what MJ is saying and twisting in a bizarre way. Call me crazy but I think when MJ said he wouldn't play with Bird and Magic he wasn't thinking at all about not playing with other top 3 players. You guys are over-analyzing over something that's meaningless.


----------



## futuristxen

Ron said:


> How is Magic a hypocrite?
> 
> Kareem was already on the team when Magic was drafted by the Lakers. Worthy was drafted two years later.
> 
> Magic stayed with one team his own career. I don't understand your basis in calling Magic a hypocrite.


He's not a hypocrite, but he left out a section in his comment.

He should have said "I never called up Larry and Michael, because I didn't need to. I was already playing with multiple hall of famers and winning championships".

I mean Larry and Magic weren't just playing with all-stars...they were playing with multiple hall of famers! Even Jordan didn't have that luxury.

Jordan definitely played that card in the 80s as well, when Larry and Magic criticized him as a selfish loser. 

So far as I can tell, Lebron just evened the odds on beating Kobe. It's clear he wants to beat Kobe, and now like Kobe he's got top players around him. That's the competitive side to it that people are completely missing.

The comparison is really KG who could have stayed in Minnesota on a perennial 50 win team, or go to Boston and try and win a title with two other top players.

This is that move, but on crack.


----------



## Game3525

seifer0406 said:


> This discussion has really made a retarded turn.
> 
> You can make all the statistical claims but the fact remains that there isn't an official list out there that ranks these players. That's why it's arguable.
> 
> Moreover, even if Wade has Paul beat convincing in stats (Which he does not), the simple fact that there is a large number of people believing that Paul is better proves the thing is up to debate. So unless you want to convince me that those people don't exist, I really don't see where your point stands. If people are arguing about it, it's arguable, simple as that.
> 
> But enough of that, let's get back to the topic. Even if Wade is universally considered #3 and Paul is considered #4, or #5, why in the world is it ok for Lebron to play with a #3 but not with a #4. Is the difference that extreme to the point where Lebron goes from hero to zero because of it? It's ridiculous.
> 
> *That's what I've been saying this whole time, you guys are trying to take what MJ is saying and twisting in a bizarre way. * Call me crazy but I think when MJ said he wouldn't play with Bird and Magic he wasn't thinking at all about not playing with other top 3 players. You guys are over-analyzing over something that's meaningless.


Pottle,kettle, black.

What Jordan is saying isn't all that hard to understand, you don't have to agree with him.


----------



## Game3525

futuristxen said:


> He's not a hypocrite, but he left out a section in his comment.
> 
> He should have said "I never called up Larry and Michael, because I didn't need to. I was already playing with multiple hall of famers and winning championships".
> 
> I mean Larry and Magic weren't just playing with all-stars...they were playing with multiple hall of famers! Even Jordan didn't have that luxury.
> 
> Jordan definitely played that card in the 80s as well, when Larry and Magic criticized him as a selfish loser.
> 
> So far as I can tell, Lebron just evened the odds on beating Kobe. It's clear he wants to beat Kobe, and now like Kobe he's got top players around him. That's the competitive side to it that people are completely missing.
> 
> *The comparison is really KG who could have stayed in Minnesota on a perennial 50 win team*, or go to Boston and try and win a title with two other top players.
> 
> This is that move, but on crack.


No, it is not. Garnett's teams were garbage, and had no shot to go anywhere. Lebron at least had the team with the best record and a chance to get to the finals.


----------



## Wade County

Bottom line is, any of Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Paul and Howard can be the best player in the league on any given night really.

There's cases to be made for all of them.


----------



## futuristxen

Game3525 said:


> No, it is not. Garnett's teams were garbage, and had no shot to go anywhere. Lebron at least had the team with the best record and a chance to get to the finals.


Define "chance to get to the finals"?

You do realize they lost in 6 games to the Celtics and Magic both of the last two years. And that was with Lebron playing like a basketball god in the Magic series.


----------



## Game3525

futuristxen said:


> Define "chance to get to the finals"?
> 
> You do realize they lost in 6 games to the Celtics and Magic both of the last two years. And that was with Lebron playing like a basketball god in the Magic series.


They had a chance, for all we know Byron Scott may have been their answer to getting to the finals, and if Lebron plays somewhat like his oldself in game 5 they most likely win the series against Boston. IMO, it just isn't like Garnett at all whoms team weren't even making the playoffs in his later years in Minnesota.


----------



## King George

When Magic and Bird were playing they were not playing with Hall of famers they were playing with teammates. These dudes happened to make the hall mostly because they played with Magic and Bird, not because they themselves were that good.


----------



## Wade County

So Kareem wasn't headed there before Magic joined?

Sigh.


----------



## King George

futuristxen said:


> Define "chance to get to the finals"?
> 
> You do realize they lost in 6 games to the Celtics and Magic both of the last two years. And that was with Lebron playing like a basketball god in the Magic series.


No, it was with LeBron running a stagnent offense of one on one run the clock down and try to do something.


----------



## Wade County

What else was he supposed to do? Give it to Mo Williams to miss a three? Pass to Jamison to miss a long J? 

He was playing one on 5 because noone else was gonna score and their offense is geared purely around him. It's give it to Lebron and get outta the way.

That doesnt win you championships.


----------



## King George

Wade County said:


> So Kareem wasn't headed there before Magic joined?
> 
> Sigh.


Kareem was already a legend, but he didn't win any championships in L.A. until Magic showed up. Magic as a rookie lead them to the title. Magic proved his greatness as ROOKIE!!!


----------



## Wade County

He won in Milwaukee. That's their only 'chip.

Why should Magic's greatness reflect poorly on Kareem?


----------



## King George

Wade County said:


> He won in Milwaukee. That's their only 'chip.
> 
> Why should Magic's greatness reflect poorly on Kareem?


With Big O. 

Fact Kareem was in L.A. for a few years before Magic and didn't win anything. Magic came and dominated in fact didn't Kareem miss game 6 of the finals and Magic put up some Monster numbers?


----------



## kflo

Do you know what kareem's playoff and finals stats were when magic was a rookie?


----------



## Wade County

Kareem averaged like 30 and 15 though. It was his team.

Kareem was also MVP of the league in Magic's rookie season.

Why do people seem to think a chip is only good if you're the only good player on the team? Tell me what championship team is a one-man band?


----------



## seifer0406

Game3525 said:


> Pottle,kettle, black.
> 
> What Jordan is saying isn't all that hard to understand, you don't have to agree with him.


Congratulation for making another post without making a point.

Nobody is disagreeing with him genius. I'm simply pointing out that his comparison doesn't apply to Lebron's situation. His statement is that he wouldn't call Magic and Bird to ask them to play with him. 

No ****. 

Where is the disagreement? He can make any claim he wants to just that it's not relevant to the topic he's commenting on and I pointed out why. So instead of pulling out all sort of baloney of what MJ *might* be talking about, how about explaining it to me how playing with rivals have anything to do with Lebron playing with Bosh/Wade.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Ron said:


> How is Magic a hypocrite?
> 
> Kareem was already on the team when Magic was drafted by the Lakers. Worthy was drafted two years later.
> 
> Magic stayed with one team his own career. I don't understand your basis in calling Magic a hypocrite.


All of this tough talk about "I was so incredibly competitive that I wanted to do it myself and not play with other great players" completely ignores the fact that their teams were *stacked*. Magic and Bird played with multiple hall of famers. Jordan played with great players also, a group that won 56 games in his absense. 

These guys talk like they won titles with nothing, when in reality, they had some of the most stacked teams of all-time, and now they're talking about how they're so competitive they would never play with other great players. BS.


----------



## Dre

LeBron is going to have one of the best seasons in NBA history and all I'm gonna do all season is sit back and :laugh:

I don't understand how this conversation illicits upwards of 2500K posts. I'm just glad it does.


----------



## King George

Wade County said:


> Kareem averaged like 30 and 15 though. It was his team.
> 
> Kareem was also MVP of the league in Magic's rookie season.
> 
> Why do people seem to think a chip is only good if you're the only good player on the team? Tell me what championship team is a one-man band?


Who cares whose team it was. Magic shined


----------



## seifer0406

King George said:


> When Magic and Bird were playing they were not playing with Hall of famers they were playing with teammates. These dudes happened to make the hall mostly because they played with Magic and Bird, not because they themselves were that good.


I think this is sig worthy. I laughed. Hard.


----------



## King George

Sir Patchwork said:


> All of this tough talk about "I was so incredibly competitive that I wanted to do it myself and not play with other great players" completely ignores the fact that their teams were *stacked*. Magic and Bird played with multiple hall of famers. Jordan played with great players also, a group that won 56 games in his absense.
> 
> These guys talk like they won titles with nothing, when in reality, they had some of the most stacked teams of all-time, and now they're talking about how they're so competitive they would never play with other great players. BS.


Magic and Bird made those guys hall of famers. Might i add Kareem played with alot of hall of famers in L.A. and didn't win anything until the Magic man came along.


----------



## E.H. Munro

King George said:


> When Magic and Bird were playing they were not playing with Hall of famers they were playing with teammates. These dudes happened to make the hall mostly because they played with Magic and Bird, not because they themselves were that good.


This may be the single stupidest thing that anyone ever typed on these boards.



King George said:


> With Big O.
> 
> Fact Kareem was in L.A. for a few years before Magic and didn't win anything. Magic came and dominated in fact didn't Kareem miss game 6 of the finals and Magic put up some Monster numbers?


And this may be the second stupidest thing that anyone ever typed here.


----------



## Wade County

Magic is a great player. Kareem is a great player.

Both are top 5 all-time.

What's your point?


----------



## Basel

E.H. Munro said:


> This may be the single stupidest thing that anyone ever typed on these boards.


Very possible. That was pretty ****ing stupid.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

E.H. Munro said:


> This may be the single stupidest thing that anyone ever typed on these boards.


I had to read it three times just to make sure I was reading it right.


----------



## Game3525

seifer0406 said:


> Congratulation for making another post without making a point.
> 
> Nobody is disagreeing with him genius. I'm simply pointing out that his* comparison *doesn't apply to Lebron's situation. His statement is that he wouldn't call Magic and Bird to ask them to play with him.
> 
> No ****.
> 
> Where is the disagreement? He can make any claim he wants to just that it's not relevant to the topic he's commenting on and I pointed out why. So instead of pulling out all sort of baloney of what MJ *might* be talking about, how about explaining it to me how playing with rivals have anything to do with Lebron playing with Bosh/Wade.


Was Jordan even making a comparison?


----------



## Dre

King George said:


> When Magic and Bird were playing they were not playing with Hall of famers they were playing with teammates. These dudes happened to make the hall mostly because they played with Magic and Bird, not because they themselves were that good.


QFSE


----------



## seifer0406

Game3525 said:


> Was Jordan even making a comparison?


So all of a sudden he feels the need to announce to the world that he never called Bird and Magic?

Just stop


----------



## Game3525

seifer0406 said:


> So all of a sudden he feels the need to announce to the world that he never called Bird and Magic?
> 
> Just stop


He was asked a question, I don't think he was trying to make a comparison at all. Someone early said it best, that it seem MJ was making a point more so then a comparison.


----------



## Wade County

Bottom line, Magic/Kareem/Worthy is likely better than Wade/Lebron/Bosh.

So I dunno what Magic is talkin bout really.


----------



## Dre

I would never PM Sir Patchwork and Ehmunro and say let's create a username with supreme knowledge and humor...I wanted to have better posts than them :yes:


----------



## seifer0406

Game3525 said:


> He was asked a question, I don't think he was trying to make a comparison at all.


And he answered it by comparing his situation to Lebrons. Or why the hell would he suddenly blurt out this revelation. Are you insane? If he's not comparing the 2 situations this statement has absolutely no connection to the question.

If you tell me that you went to Adelphi University and I told you my retarded gay cousin went there, don't you think that I'm comparing him to you? Do you seriously not see this? Lebron joined 2 stars, MJ said he wouldn't join 2 stars, THAT'S THE COMPARISON.

Just stop, unless you're trying to beat King George on the stupidest thing posted scale.


----------



## Game3525

seifer0406 said:


> And he answered it by comparing his situation to Lebrons. Or why the hell would he suddenly blurt out this revelation. Are you insane? If he's not comparing the 2 situations this statement has absolutely no connection to the question.
> 
> If you tell me that you went to Adelphi University and I told you my retarded gay cousin went there, don't you think that I'm comparing him to you? Do you seriously not seeing this? Lebron joined 2 stars, MJ said he wouldn't join 2 stars, THAT'S THE COMPARISON.
> 
> Just stop, unless you're trying to beat King George on the stupidest thing posted scale.


Your making it sound as if he was taking a shot at Lebron, I don't see that way.


----------



## seifer0406

Game3525 said:


> Your making it sound as if he was taking a shot at Lebron, I don't see that way.


We agree to disagree. Just don't come here and tell me I'm twisting his words because you clearly sees things a lot differently than a lot of people. If MJ isn't making comparisons this wouldn't even be a lengthy thread.

lol, so now we have a guy who thinks Kareem is just another player and we have a guy who doesn't think this statement was a shot taken at Lebron by MJ. This is just great.


----------



## King George

E.H. Munro said:


> This may be the single stupidest thing that anyone ever typed on these boards.
> 
> 
> 
> And this may be the second stupidest thing that anyone ever typed here.


It's not. Robert Parish wasn't considered great until he played with Bird. Infact DJ who isn't even in the hall is like the only one who had success before Bird. Kevin McHale was like Boston's 6th man.


----------



## Game3525

seifer0406 said:


> We agree to disagree.
> 
> lol


Touche.:grinning:

Someone had said it best early that it seems that Michael was making a point more so then a comparison, that is all.


----------



## Game3525

King George said:


> It's not. Robert Parish wasn't considered great until he played with Bird. Infact DJ who isn't even in the hall is like the only one who had success before Bird. *Kevin McHale was like Boston's 6th man*.


Lmao, McHale was going to be success anywhere. The man is one of the greatest post players this league has seen.


----------



## Wade County

But his point and the comparison are linked - as he's reference in saying he wouldn't join with Magic n Bird is a comparison to Lebron joining Wade and Bosh.


----------



## Game3525

Funny thing is I still don't see it as a slight on Lebron, so what if he isn't as competitive as Jordan, No one is as competitive as that guy.


----------



## E.H. Munro

King George said:


> It's not. Robert Parish wasn't considered great until he played with Bird. Infact DJ who isn't even in the hall is like the only one who had success before Bird. Kevin McHale was like Boston's 6th man.


Tiny Archibald had no success before Bird? That might be news to him. Dave Cowens owes his spot on the NBA's all time top 50 list to Bird? Again, that was probably a shock to him. Robert Parish was radically better after arriving in Boston? Sorry, the statistics just don't reflect that. While it's now largely forgotten, Joe Barry Carroll was actually considered a potential all time great coming out of college, and Golden State just stupid enough to trade their 17/12/3 big man and the #3 pick for him. McHale was Boston's 6th man because when he arrived in Boston Cedric Maxwel was really the only forward any good at guarding the 3, and Boston already had an all star PF (Bird) and had just traded for an all star C (Parish).


----------



## 77AJ

People care way to much about what Michael Jordan has to say. He made a comment, move on already.


----------



## Hibachi!

Hall of famers trying to protect their legacies... Nothing more. SIR Patchwork is dead on this whole thread.


----------



## Nevus

Hibachi! said:


> Hall of famers trying to protect their legacies... Nothing more. SIR Patchwork is dead on this whole thread.


I'm happy to agree, and to add that Sir Patchwork is dead on in almost every thread.


----------



## Blue

E.H. Munro said:


> Actually I generally put Wade in fourth behind LBJ/Bryant/Paul. He's most certainly the Bernard King of this era, and now that LBJ is going to Orlando to be the 21st century Magic he's going to end up much higher on everyones all time lists than he would otherwise have done.


Idk, Wade has a Finals MVP and has actually won something. He's more than empty numbers, so i'd say he's more like Clyde(except Wade won in his trip to the finals as the man, where as Clyde lost to Jordan's Bulls before teaming w/ The Dream). 

TMac is the Bernard King, imo. Explosive scorer and great all-around #'s, but they're empty #'s and couldn't get out of the 1st round as the man.



> You look at the respective surrounding casts for Cleveland and Miami these last few years, and Shawn Marion was probably the best player outside James & Wade on either roster. But Miami's been garbage. Next year the Heat will go from a 47 win team to a 65+ win team, and that certain section of the crowd will insist that it's entirely Wade's doing while the Cleveland Cadavaliers are winning 28 games and the very same people will make excuses for the difference between them with and without LeBron.


Beasley > Marion and they didn't even play him, so i dont buy that. They just weren't trying to put the time into him and go through the growing pains, so they featured UD and Jermaine over him. Dude was getting 24mpg as a rookie, while similar guys like him (Melo & Durant) were getting 36+mpg as rookies. I dont buy that Marion was the best player at all, they just didn't use what they had... And look @ Cleveland, that team has what, 2 or 3 all-stars in the last few years? Idk man.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Idk, Wade has a Finals MVP and has actually won something. He's more than empty numbers, so i'd say he's more like Clyde(except he actually won in his one trip to the finals, where Clyde lost to Jordan's Bulls).
> 
> TMac is the Bernard King. Explosive scorer and great all-around #'s, but they're empty #'s and couldn't get out of the 1st round as the man.


Bernard was hardly an empty numbers player And I'm not certain in which universe Bernard King wasn't the best player on that Knicks squad that the Celtics beat on their run to the '84 title, but it sure as hell wasn't this one. It's not really his fault that his prime happened to fall during a period when the NBA more or less belonged to Boston, LA, and Philadelphia. It would be like comparing Oscar Robertson to T-Mac because Robertson's prime came in the 60s. Or comparing Gerald Wallace to Scottie Pippen....



Blue Magic said:


> Beasley > Marion and they didn't even play him, so i dont buy that.


Sooooo, you're telling us that LeBron's surrounding cast was better because there were two guys in Miami better than anyone that he played with? OOOOOOO-kay.


----------



## Ron

Sir Patchwork said:


> All of this tough talk about "I was so incredibly competitive that I wanted to do it myself and not play with other great players" completely ignores the fact that their teams were *stacked*. Magic and Bird played with multiple hall of famers. Jordan played with great players also, a group that won 56 games in his absense.
> 
> These guys talk like they won titles with nothing, when in reality, they had some of the most stacked teams of all-time, and now they're talking about how they're so competitive they would never play with other great players. BS.


I don't see where Magic is making that claim at all. He knows he had Abdul-Jabbar and Worthy and Wilkes and Nixon and Scott on his team, as well as everyone else knows. I just don't see where your claim that he is a hypocrite applies in this case.

Conversely, what was he supposed to do? Demand a trade to the Kansas City Kings? Let's get real here.


----------



## Ron

Game3525 said:


> He was asked a question, I don't think he was trying to make a comparison at all. Someone early said it best, that it seem MJ was making a point more so then a comparison.


Both of these guys were asked questions, and they answered them. Some posters on here are acting like Magic and Jordan sought out reporters so that they can make their claims...just nonsense.


----------



## Wade County

That's the point though. Magic's saying he wouldn't do it, but he didn't need to, because his team was more stacked than this Heat team.

Point is - we don't take credit away from Magic for having Kareem, or Bird for having his plethora of HoF'ers. Jordan had Pippen and noone takes that away when talking about his legacy. Why is this so different? I get that the way Lebron annouced it was tactless and without thought of the consequences, but what's so bad with putting yourself in the best position to win? All these legends talk about is winning is all that matters, and thats what they are remembered as, guys who played amazing ball and won championships - they've got rings to prove it. Why shouldn't Lebron want a share?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Ron said:


> Conversely, what was he supposed to do? Demand a trade to the Kansas City Kings? Let's get real here.


I don't fault Magic for wanting to play with great players so he can win titles. I just don't fault LeBron either. I don't expect LeBron to stay on with a poor franchise just to prove he is competitive, just as I wouldn't expect Magic to demand a trade off of a stacked team to prove he is competitive. Both expectations are equally ludicrous.


----------



## Diable

Did Jordan want to beat Pippen too?


----------



## Wade County

^ Probably. Dude is a psycho :laugh:


----------



## Diable

Just out of curiousity...Am I the only one who looks at this and thinks that Wade really isn't much if any better than Pippen was while he played with MJ? They're obviously different, but I wouldn't say that Wade is better. In terms of all time greats Chris Bosh doesn't even merit the mention. I don't think that Wade makes a great comparison to Magic or Bird. He's just not that level of player in my opinion. He's the same level player that Scottie was so far as I am concerned.


----------



## Wade County

Hard to compare Wade and Pippen. Different style players. We'll see how Wade adjusts his game this season playing with superior teammates.

Agreed Bosh isn't exactly Larry Bird, as is the comparison...But he's a good player in his own right.


----------



## seifer0406

As a complimentary player I would take Pippen over Wade because Pippen just does so much of everything. However as a first option and a crunch time player there is no comparison.

Bosh is a good player but even if he stayed as a Raptor and kept his franchise player status for most of his career he likely wouldn't have made the HOF. He is in the category of Pau Gasol, Jermaine O'neal, Amare Stoudemire, Elton Brand, guys that aren't great 1st options but are great as a 2nd or in Bosh's case, 3rd player on a team.


----------



## King George

Diable said:


> Just out of curiousity...Am I the only one who looks at this and thinks that Wade really isn't much if any better than Pippen was while he played with MJ? They're obviously different, but I wouldn't say that Wade is better. In terms of all time greats Chris Bosh doesn't even merit the mention. I don't think that Wade makes a great comparison to Magic or Bird. He's just not that level of player in my opinion. He's the same level player that Scottie was so far as I am concerned.


Are u serious? Wade is better than Pippen. I'd put him up there with the greats he singlehandedly won that finals, well him and the refs but still. He showed great heart out there.


----------



## JerryWest

Wade County said:


> Bottom line, Magic/Kareem/Worthy is likely better than Wade/Lebron/Bosh.
> 
> So I dunno what Magic is talkin bout really.


All teams were deeper in the 80's because there were less teams in the league.

You also have to account for the fact that while Kareem was good, he was playing with Magic from 30 to 40 and past his prime although still a very good player, also that Kareem's greatness comes from his longevity + his peak from his 20-30's when he was scoring + defense + grabbing 15 rebounds per game as an average. 

By the time, he racked up titles with Magic, he could still score but his defense was a lot weaker and he was averaging about 8 boards a game a center for the first 4 or 5 years with Magic and that dropped to about 6 boards a game. So yes, it was a lot different if you put it into context.


Back to the point though, I think a lot of Miami fans are just sensitive because their new player is being viewed in a negative light.

However, you look at it, Magic + Jordan + Bird are all answering the questions honestly and briefly. _*It's not like Jordan is going on a one hour special*_ about how he wouldn't have done it like LeBron.


----------



## Diable

Dude, like anything you say on Wade's behalf counts against him.


----------



## seifer0406

Kenneth said:


> However, you look at it, Magic + Jordan + Bird are all answering the questions honestly and briefly. _*It's not like Jordan is going on a one hour special*_ about how he wouldn't have done it like LeBron.


Nobody is saying that they aren't being honest about their answers. It's just so obvious that each of them tried to elevate themselves over Lebron by their statements. While it's perfectly fine for them to do something like that, it's also justified for the fans to criticize them for doing so.

The TV special was a douchebag move and shouldn't be copied. Perhaps in the future Jordan would do something to top that because Lebron TV special is probably the only thing that topped Jordan's HOF speech on the classless scale. We know how competitive Jordan is. I'm sure he's coming up with something right now as we speak that will shock the world.


----------



## Wade County

He's probably coming back


----------



## JerryWest

seifer0406 said:


> Nobody is saying that they aren't being honest about their answers. It's just so obvious that each of them tried to elevate themselves over Lebron by their statements. While it's perfectly fine for them to do something like that, it's also justified for the fans to criticize them for doing so.
> 
> The TV special was a douchebag move and shouldn't be copied. Perhaps in the future Jordan would do something to top that because Lebron TV special is probably the only thing that topped Jordan's HOF speech on the classless scale. We know how competitive Jordan is. I'm sure he's coming up with something right now as we speak that will shock the world.


Jordan talked about how he became who he was. First thing Jordan did when he talked about actual players, he mentioned Pippen was there for all of them, unlike LeBron who usually tries to deflect blame onto his teammates. When Jordan talked about who he would have for his ideal team. Jordan was a jackass, but he was an ass because he was competitive. LeBron is a jackass for stringing along multiple cities because he just likes attention so much.

Also if the HOF speech was any indication, I bet Jordan held back on his words on what he really thought about LeBron. If LeBron wasn't associated with Nike too, Jordan would have been a lot more harsh about his thoughts IMO.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Kenneth said:


> All teams were deeper in the 80's because there were less teams in the league.


NBA Titles in the 80s

LA 5
Boston 3
Philadelphia 1
Detroit 1

Truly LA & Boston didn't have a talent advantage over the rest of the league.


----------



## JerryWest

E.H. Munro said:


> NBA Titles in the 80s
> 
> LA 5
> Boston 3
> Philadelphia 1
> Detroit 1
> 
> Truly LA & Boston didn't have a talent advantage over the rest of the league.


I never said they didn't have a talent advantage, your attempt to change the argument is a failure. I said teams across the league were deeper in general. Or do you really believe that teams now a days on average have as much depth top to bottom as teams in the 80s when there were less teams?

Even though they were stacked, so were other teams. In 1986 the 76ers had - Charles Barkley, Dr J, Moses Malone. Arguably, they have 3 of the top 15 players ever. For role players, they had guys like Bob McAdoo who was a former MVP. Magic and Bird had talented teams, but they were also beating very talented teams.


----------



## Ron

Wade County said:


> Funny thing is, I bet you a 25yr old Kobe Bryant in the same situation as a 25yr old Lebron James probably would've done the whole ESPN crap too. The media fed the 2010 hype machine - the players played up to it. Who comes off worse here?
> 
> The fact that you think us Heat fans are delusional or something makes me laugh. Some (I repeat, some) Laker fans aren't liking the idea of a legitimate challenger to the throne they've had the past few years. That's fine - we'll see what happens next season and go from there.


No he wouldn't have, check your history.

Kobe was 23 when he won his third title. He would have never left that championship machine and obviously he didn't.


----------



## seifer0406

Kenneth said:


> Jordan talked about how he became who he was. First thing Jordan did when he talked about actual players, he mentioned Pippen was there for all of them, unlike LeBron who usually tries to deflect blame onto his teammates. When Jordan talked about who he would have for his ideal team. Jordan was a jackass, but he was an ass because he was competitive. LeBron is a jackass for stringing along multiple cities because he just likes attention so much.
> 
> Also if the HOF speech was any indication, I bet Jordan held back on his words on what he really thought about LeBron. If LeBron wasn't associated with Nike too, Jordan would have been a lot more harsh about his thoughts IMO.


That's why I said Lebron topped him in the classless scale. However knowing how competitive Jordan is I doubt he'll even let Lebron have that title.


----------



## 77AJ

seifer0406 said:


> Nobody is saying that they aren't being honest about their answers. It's just so obvious that each of them tried to elevate themselves over Lebron by their statements. While it's perfectly fine for them to do something like that, it's also justified for the fans to criticize them for doing so.
> 
> The TV special was a douchebag move and shouldn't be copied. Perhaps in the future Jordan would do something to top that because Lebron TV special is probably the only thing that topped Jordan's HOF speech on the classless scale. We know how competitive Jordan is. I'm sure he's coming up with something right now as we speak that will shock the world.


Jordan says a couple things about LeBron picking Miami, and you say it's justified for the fans to criticize Jordan. Yet the fans that are critical of LeBron James taking easy street for a possible championship, you chastise them, and try to argue with everyone under the sun in support of LeBron James. My god the hypocrisy you spew is pathetic. 

So just come out and say it dude, you're a Jordan hater, and a Bron homer. End of discussion.

You're making such a big deal about Jordans comments, yet brush aside the One Hour ESPN LeBron James decision special. And even in doing so, try and insult Jordan with pot shots that are mindless and irrelevant . It's quite obvious to all you have an agenda here.


----------



## Wade County

Ron said:


> No he wouldn't have, check your history.
> 
> Kobe was 23 when he won his third title. He would have never left that championship machine and obviously he didn't.


I was inferring if Kobe was in Lebron's situation. If Lebron had 3 titles under his belt he'd probably have reupped too.

The point is kinda moot though I guess, it's all hypothetical.


----------



## Blue

E.H. Munro said:


> Bernard was hardly an empty numbers player And I'm not certain in which universe Bernard King wasn't the best player on that Knicks squad that the Celtics beat on their run to the '84 title, but it sure as hell wasn't this one. It's not really his fault that his prime happened to fall during a period when the NBA more or less belonged to Boston, LA, and Philadelphia. It would be like comparing Oscar Robertson to T-Mac because Robertson's prime came in the 60s. Or comparing Gerald Wallace to Scottie Pippen....
> 
> 
> 
> Sooooo, you're telling us that LeBron's surrounding cast was better because there were two guys in Miami better than anyone that he played with? OOOOOOO-kay.


Im talking about the Orlando TMac. The guy who was tearing up the league and arguably the best player in the league for like 2 seasons(much less best player on his team, lol. I dont know why you're so offended). Too bad Tracy started getting chronic back spasms @ 24-25 yrs old and then knee injury, which derailed his career. He could've been a top 50 guy, imo. 

It's just that Bernards individual accomplishments stack up closer to a TMac than a Wade, imo, if we want to compare. Both were multi-scoring champions and got nice numbers, but neither really did much with it when it came time to enact winning. Wade has a ring and Finals MVP.


----------



## John

Wade County said:


> That's the point though. Magic's saying he wouldn't do it, but he didn't need to, because his team was more stacked than this Heat team.


Are you a team fan or player fan? If yu are a team fan, okay but if you are a player fan, whoever he likes, whoever is not better than Johnson or Jordan. Wade is 28, you know. 2 years left and that's it. Bosh? Defense? Please!


----------



## 77AJ

Wade County said:


> I was inferring if Kobe was in Lebron's situation. If Lebron had 3 titles under his belt he'd probably have reupped too.
> 
> The point is kinda moot though I guess, it's all hypothetical.


Remember Micahel Jordan made the comments though not Kobe Bryant. And if history is a teacher, Jordan didn't win a championship until his 7th year in the NBA. Jordan didn't have superstar proven players to combat the great teams, and other players in the league. The only fact we all knew about Michael Jordan from his rookie season and onward in the NBA is that he was one bad mofo. Pippen's early years in Chicago are embarrassing. Pippen was feeble minded, and that's putting it nicely. Jordan had a lot to do with making Pippen a stronger player mentally, and the chemistry between the two guys was top notch. That being said Pippen, Grant, and Paxson early on were not considered jack ****. It was the Chicago Jordans, much like it has been the Cleveland LeBrons.


----------



## Wade County

My Kobe comment was actually unrelated to Jordan's comment.


----------



## Blue

23AJ said:


> Remember Micahel Jordan made the comments though not Kobe Bryant. And if history is a teacher, Jordan didn't win a championship until his 7th year in the NBA. Jordan didn't have superstar proven players to combat the great teams, and other players in the league. The only fact we all knew about Michael Jordan from his rookie season and onward in the NBA is that he was one bad mofo. Pippen's early years in Chicago are embarrassing. Pippen was feeble minded, and that's putting it nicely. Jordan had a lot to do with making Pippen a stronger player mentally, and the chemistry between the two guys was top notch. That being said Pippen, Grant, and Paxson early on were not considered jack ****. It was the Chicago Jordans, much like it has been the Cleveland LeBrons.


No Pippen would be remembered as a top 30 All-Time regardless of where he laced up.  Playing w/ MJ had NOTHING to do with the development of his mindset or his drive or his brand.


----------



## 77AJ

Wade County said:


> My Kobe comment was actually unrelated to Jordan's comment.


Well it doesn't matter, I'm happy that Wade, James, and Bosh are all playing together. I just can see the view points of past generations greatest players. History has a way of making us all look foolish. I'm sure thousands of years from now, if our planet is still going and strong. History books will have quite the tale of us all as well, that regard are beliefs, systems, and progress. 

Essentially what I'm saying is, the history books will be the writing on the wall long after were all dead. Maybe it will be Jordan who was right, and the GOAT, and maybe it will be LeBron who comes out looking great and becomes the GOAT. Who knows the future is unpredictable, and our history is still being written. 

Just my two coppers.
23AJ

ps

Maybe Wade will be the man in South Beach. Whatever happens, GO HEAT!!


----------



## Wade County

John said:


> Are you a team fan or player fan? If yu are a team fan, okay but if you are a player fan, whoever he likes, whoever is not better than Johnson or Jordan. Wade is 28, you know. 2 years left and that's it. Bosh? Defense? Please!


I'm a team fan and a player fan. I support the Miami Heat religiously, but if a guy can ball I can appreciate that too.

Kobe is ballin pretty well at 31, and shows no sign of letting up. Ray Allen still looks pretty good at 35. Wade could go another 5 years at this level, who knows?


----------



## futuristxen

I think Jordan held Pippen back past a certain point. I mean the years Jordan was out shagging fly balls, Pippen was arguably the greatest perimeter player in the game. He actually played a lot like how Lebron James now plays. And like a prime Grant Hill. Combined with incredible defense.

He very nearly got to the Finals without Michael on two separate occasions.

I think it's fair to say he was Jordan's Kevin Mchale. Which is a player who would have been otherwise independently great, but whose resume was enhanced by the championships the other guy was able to help him win.


----------



## afobisme

Wade County said:


> I'm a team fan and a player fan. I support the Miami Heat religiously, but if a guy can ball I can appreciate that too.
> 
> Kobe is ballin pretty well at 31, and shows no sign of letting up. Ray Allen still looks pretty good at 35. Wade could go another 5 years at this level, who knows?


wade is shorter, and he's not a great shooter. i dont' think he's going to be as good as kobe or lebron in their 30's.


----------



## futuristxen

23AJ said:


> Well it doesn't matter, I'm happy that Wade, James, and Bosh are all playing together. I just can see the view points of past generations greatest players. History has a way of making us all look foolish. I'm sure thousands of years from now, if our planet is still going and strong. History books will have quite the tale of us all as well, that regard are beliefs, systems, and progress.
> 
> Essentially what I'm saying is, the history books will be the writing on the wall long after were all dead. Maybe it will be Jordan who was right, and the GOAT, and maybe it will be LeBron who comes out looking great and becomes the GOAT. Who knows the future is unpredictable, and our history is still being written.
> 
> Just my two coppers.
> 23AJ
> 
> ps
> 
> Maybe Wade will be the man in South Beach. Whatever happens, GO HEAT!!


Yeah fact of the matter is we may have a chance to see some of the most entertaining basketball since the 80s. Heat-Lakers could be the new Celtics-Lakers of the 80s. Bird, Mchale,Parish=Kobe, Gasol, Bynum. Magic, Worthy, Kareem=Lebron,Wade, Bosh

The Heat are going to be 82 MUST WATCH games this year. Rock star games. Haven't had that since the Bulls.


----------



## f22egl

Wade County said:


> What else was he supposed to do? Give it to Mo Williams to miss a three? *Pass to Jamison to miss a long J? *
> 
> He was playing one on 5 because noone else was gonna score and their offense is geared purely around him. It's give it to Lebron and get outta the way.
> 
> That doesnt win you championships.


I actually feel the Cavs misused Jamison for that entire series. Jamison is most effective he operates in the paint and uses those crazy flip shots to knock down shots. His 3 point shot is not his greatest strength in his offensive arsenal and was never really a lethal 3 point shooter in Washington despite the fact that Arenas created a TON of open 3 pointers for Jamison.


----------



## 77AJ

Blue Magic said:


> No Pippen would be remembered as a top 30 All-Time regardless of where he laced up.  Playing w/ MJ had NOTHING to do with the development of his mindset or his drive or his brand.


By your comment, I can tell you didn't actually watch Pippen play in the early years with the Bulls. You didn't watch him get man handled by his teammates and slapped around. You didn't watch him sit out of a game 7 playoff game in the Eastern Conference Finals against the Pistons in 1990 (due to a migraine headache) You didn't see Pippen quit on the Bulls when Phil Jackson drew up a game winning shot for Toni Kukoc. Pippen refused to go back into the game, and sat on the bench. Pippen was bad his first few years in Chicago. Believe me when I say Jordan had a huge influence on Pippens game. 

I do agree however that regardless of MJ's influence on Pip. Pippen turned into a great great player, and I'll never take that away from him. But let's not pretend Pippen and the Bulls supporting cast started off in Chicago as defined superstars with legacys on the line, they were actually quite bad early on, besides of course Michael Jordan.


----------



## 77AJ

futuristxen said:


> Yeah fact of the matter is we may have a chance to see some of the most entertaining basketball since the 80s. Heat-Lakers could be the new Celtics-Lakers of the 80s. Bird, Mchale,Parish=Kobe, Gasol, Bynum. Magic, Worthy, Kareem=Lebron,Wade, Bosh
> 
> The Heat are going to be 82 MUST WATCH games this year. Rock star games. Haven't had that since the Bulls.


No doubt about that. Haven't been this excited to follow a team since the Showtime Lakers and Bulls three peat teams.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Im talking about the Orlando TMac. The guy who was tearing up the league and arguably the best player in the league for like 2 seasons(much less best player on his team, lol. I dont know why you're so offended). Too bad Tracy started getting chronic back spasms @ 24-25 yrs old and then knee injury, which derailed his career. He could've been a top 50 guy, imo.
> 
> It's just that Bernards individual accomplishments stack up closer to a TMac than a Wade, imo, if we want to compare. Both were multi-scoring champions and got nice numbers, but neither really did much with it when it came time to enact winning. Wade has a ring and Finals MVP.


You specifically said that King never led a team out of the first round of the playoffs, I'm just pointing out that that wasn't true. I remember that series in '84, King was a load and a half. He tortured the Celtics to the tune of nearly 30 a game. If the rest of that squad wasn't so piss poor Boston might not have won the title that year


----------



## Wade County

afobisme said:


> wade is shorter, and he's not a great shooter. i dont' think he's going to be as good as kobe or lebron in their 30's.


Wade is, what, 1 or 2 inches shorter? It's hardly been a detriment to date.

If he can remain healthy, I see no reason he can't stay this level till 31-32.

Once he loses a step he'll struggle a bit, but he's a pretty good midrange shooter in his own right.

He may just become even more of a facilitator in those later years.

Time will tell I guess.


----------



## jokeaward

Alternate universe: "You wanted to talk to me, Larry?"
"Yeah, Len. It's about your talent. I just think we're both too much the alpha dog at this point, capable of 30 on any night with 8, 10 boards. And with no salary cap, we're all good financially. It's just not competitive, I'd like you to go to Milwaukee or Cleveland so I can beat you. Or maybe an expansion team just coming in."

David Robinson, 1997: "Man, I wanted to show that Duncan a thing or two in the post if he went to Boston. Oh well... *sigh*. I guess we'll just beat Barkley again."


----------



## 77AJ

jokeaward said:


> Alternate universe: "You wanted to talk to me, Larry?"
> "Yeah, Len. It's about your talent. I just think we're both too much the alpha dog at this point, capable of 30 on any night with 8, 10 boards. And with no salary cap, we're all good financially. It's just not competitive, I'd like you to go to Milwaukee or Cleveland so I can beat you. Or maybe an expansion team just coming in."
> 
> David Robinson, 1997: "Man, I wanted to show that Duncan a thing or two in the post if he went to Boston. Oh well... *sigh*. I guess we'll just beat Barkley again."


And yet both Larry (RIP Len Bias) and David Robinson played for their franchises before the glory and stayed for the long haul. Actually the David Robinson (Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood) example works more in favor for the Jordan comments. - shrug -


----------



## Blue




----------



## jokeaward

23AJ said:


> And yet both *Larry* (RIP Len Bias) and David Robinson played for their franchises *before the glory* and stayed for the long haul. Actually the David Robinson (Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood) example works more in favor for the Jordan comments. - shrug -


For one year and 61 wins? With Red Auerbach as GM?

David Robinson after his seventh year, it was 1996-97 when he played 6 games and they got the #1 pick. So he wasn't really in a long haul compared to a short one for Lebron, and unless Lebron plans to tire iron his knee then they won't be drafting Harrison Barnes (no four-year Duncan, either). Actually now they might with him in Miami.

Not to mention that Robinson won one title as a main cog and one in 2003 as a solid but limited player. So if he somehow went to Seattle or Utah and won two or three before slowing down, all the better for him.

It's also an insult to the Rockets or Spurs executive being compared to the Cavs, who are now saddled with Gibson, Williams, Varejao, and semi-anchored by Jamison with two years left. That's your friendly neighborhood regular season lion and playoff lamb.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

Like Barkley said, "There would have been something honorable about staying in Cleveland and trying to win it as 'The Man." There's loyalty not between the player and the team, but between the player and the fanbase. Staying builds loyalty; leaving breaks it. Regardless of what you think about Cavs supporting cast, Lebron broke the loyalty to his fans when he left.


----------



## Ron

Wade County said:


> Wade is, what, 1 or 2 inches shorter? It's hardly been a detriment to date.
> 
> If he can remain healthy, I see no reason he can't stay this level till 31-32.
> 
> Once he loses a step he'll struggle a bit, but he's a pretty good midrange shooter in his own right.
> 
> He may just become even more of a facilitator in those later years.
> 
> Time will tell I guess.


Wade has a good five years to go, maybe more. That poster above that said he only has two years left is well...don't need to say it. Sheesh.


----------



## afobisme

Wade County said:


> Wade is, what, 1 or 2 inches shorter? It's hardly been a detriment to date.
> 
> If he can remain healthy, I see no reason he can't stay this level till 31-32.
> 
> Once he loses a step he'll struggle a bit, but he's a pretty good midrange shooter in his own right.
> 
> He may just become even more of a facilitator in those later years.
> 
> Time will tell I guess.


2 inches shorter, and kobe's got a longer wingspan by 2 inches. even 2 inches makes a huge difference. that's like comparing a 7'0 to a 6'10 guy.. someone like pau compared to LO or something to that effect.

the way wade plays, who knows how long his body will hold up? he plays like a pingpong ball and all. and once your speed goes, it gets really hard to stay effective when you don't have the height.




Chan said:


> Like Barkley said, "There would have been something honorable about staying in Cleveland and trying to win it as 'The Man." There's loyalty not between the player and the team, but between the player and the fanbase. Staying builds loyalty; leaving breaks it. Regardless of what you think about Cavs supporting cast, Lebron broke the loyalty to his fans when he left.


didn't charles ask to be traded from philly?


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

^Yeah, but he wasn't in Lebron's class of legendary. Less hype, less letdown.


----------



## kflo

Chan said:


> ^Yeah, but he wasn't in Lebron's class of legendary. Less hype, less letdown.


and greater ability to throw stones.

the motivation is the same. you could argue even greater for someone in lebron's class. if you don't have confidence in mgmt, in your team, and the years are going by, you eventually do something about it. they all have, regardless of level of class. yes, lebron disappointed cleveland. but loyalty has it's limits. lebron had options, and everyone was aware.


----------



## kflo

as for magic's comments - yes, he wanted to beat larry. they were the 2 best teams from the start (with philly). he wanted to beat him, and had the tools to do so. again, lebron didn't join forces with kobe and the lakers. didn't latch on to the celts. or even the magic. magic played in the finals 9 freakin times, and every time they didn't make it, through '89, it was an upset. he was trying to figure out how to beat larry? how bout just asking cap? 

fact is, the cavs have been a fairly motley cast of revolving characters around lebron. they haven't built anything there, and have no up and coming players to be excited about the future. their front office failed. magic had guys he could count on. they had a nucleus, and filled in with players around that nucleus. traded core to improve the core. by the time the lakers were looking a bit like the current cavs, magic already had his 5 titles.


----------



## seifer0406

23AJ said:


> Jordan says a couple things about LeBron picking Miami, and you say it's justified for the fans to criticize Jordan. Yet the fans that are critical of LeBron James taking easy street for a possible championship, you chastise them, and try to argue with everyone under the sun in support of LeBron James. My god the hypocrisy you spew is pathetic.
> 
> So just come out and say it dude, you're a Jordan hater, and a Bron homer. End of discussion.
> 
> You're making such a big deal about Jordans comments, yet brush aside the One Hour ESPN LeBron James decision special. And even in doing so, try and insult Jordan with pot shots that are mindless and irrelevant . It's quite obvious to all you have an agenda here.


First of all I suggest you go back and read the 10-15 posts that I've written so far about how much I felt Lebron's TV special was a douchemag move. Go read it, really. That's what a reply is, you read things *first* then reply, genius.

This leads to my second point, I never once argued that people shouldn't criticize Lebron for his TV special. Again, if you actually followed my post instead of just randomly spewing nonsense you would know. People in Cleveland should be mad at him and should boo him because of it. However, I do have a problem with the notion that Lebron had a good team, because it's clear as day that he doesn't. Do I need to be a Lebron lover to not be a fan of Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Darius Miles, Antawn Jamison? What is your point? 

I know it's a myth to you how people can be objective in their views regarding NBA players as we've all seen how objective you've been to Lebron in the past. I wasn't a Cavs or Lebron fan before all of this and I'm not going to be one after. I will however have to put him amongst my alltime great list after all of this is over. Therefore statements like "Lebron has lost his legacy because he went to play with his rivals" pops up it does bother me because I question the fact that 1)They weren't his rivals 2)how does it make him lose his legacy. Call me a Lebron lover for asking those questions because in you world a Lebron hater would never have noticed these inconsistencies.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Chan said:


> ^Yeah, but he wasn't in Lebron's class of legendary. Less hype, less letdown.


Oh yes he was.


----------



## kflo

E.H. Munro said:


> Oh yes he was.


no he wasn't. no disrespect to chuck.


----------



## E.H. Munro

By the time he was traded he was already being discussed as the greatest PF in NBA history. The only reason he didn't have the "exposure" was that 20 years ago we didn't have 500 channels of cable broadcasting nothing 24/7. But he was as certainly high profile in 1990 as it got.


----------



## kflo

E.H. Munro said:


> By the time he was traded he was already being discussed as the greatest PF in NBA history. The only reason he didn't have the "exposure" was that 20 years ago we didn't have 500 channels of cable broadcasting nothing 24/7. But he was as certainly high profile in 1990 as it got.


c'mon - he wasn't lebron james. he was one of the 5 top players in the game, but he wasn't lebron. in 1990 his profile still lagged magic and mj by alot. lebron is on a different level. his teams have been better, his play has been better, his accolades have been greater, and his standing in the game is higher. barkley was being discussed among baylor, pettit, hayes, mchale, etc. lebron is being discussed with jordan, magic, bird, etc. it's a pretty clear delineation.


----------



## Diable

CHuck was closer to Dirk than he was to Lebron. He was never thought of as being a top ten all time player, but people thought he had the ability to be close to that. Really if you look at his career Chuck's MVP season was the only time he had a really all time great type of season. If he'd been in that type of shape his entire career and played with that type of motivation maybe he'd have been up there. Honestly Chuck was probably better known for the same thing he's known for now....And for occasionally throwing a drunk through a window.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Diable said:


> CHuck was closer to Dirk than he was to Lebron. He was never thought of as being a top ten all time player, but people thought he had the ability to be close to that. Really if you look at his career Chuck's MVP season was the only time he had a really all time great type of season. If he'd been in that type of shape his entire career and played with that type of motivation maybe he'd have been up there. Honestly Chuck was probably better known for the same thing he's known for now....And for occasionally throwing a drunk through a window.


Yes, he was one of the few athletes that stepped outside the sports pages, which was kind of the point. On a technical level he wasn't as "exposed" as stars are now due to the age of media saturation. But he was as high profile as it got back then, when we got our news from piles of recycled paper and whatever was on TV.


----------



## kflo

E.H. Munro said:


> Yes, he was one of the few athletes that stepped outside the sports pages, which was kind of the point. On a technical level he wasn't as "exposed" as stars are now due to the age of media saturation. But he was as high profile as it got back then, when we got our news from piles of recycled paper and whatever was on TV.


jordan and magic were as high profile as it got. not barkley.


----------



## E.H. Munro

If you want to call Matt Barnes a superstar because the media coverage of his most recent free agent decision gets more covereage than these things got 20 years ago, feel free. In pure basketball terms, Barkley wasn't quite as larger than life as Magic or MJ, but I was commenting on Chan's claim that Barkley never had anything like this exposure. But, frankly, no athletes back then got the kind of exposure that players like Paul Pierce or Pau Gasol get now. Back then very few athletes got major coverage outside the sports section of the newspapers. Barkley was one of a handful whose actions were regular fodder for grist. I mean, basically there were four guys, because the only time Isiah got exposure outside the sports section of the paper was when he was excluded from the Dream Team because everyone hated him.


----------



## kflo

chan said "he wasn't in Lebron's class of legendary. Less hype, less letdown" which is absolutely, unequivocally true. lebron isn't just the greater figure because the absolute media coverage is greater. he's a greater star. greater player. greater everything. the magnitude of lebron is greater than the magnitude of barkley. 

barkley made news when he did stupid ****. he did more of that then his peers.


----------



## HB

*Bryant Gumbel also wades in*



> “Finally tonight, a few words about championship rings. Just when did they become the all-important barometer of who does or doesn’t count in sports? When did they supersede personal excellence or exemplary character as a standard of greatness?
> 
> “I got to thinking about that the other night after the self-anointed chosen one, LeBron James, embarrassed himself as he tried to make his decision to seek rings in Miami sound like a search for the Holy Grail. It’s when he essentially admitted to placing a higher priority on winning than anything else.
> 
> “LeBron’s decision is typical of our immediate gratification era, but it flies in the face of history. Even though he never won a title, Dan Marino is still the biggest hero in Florida. And in Boston, all those Celtics championships are dimmed by the unforgettable brilliance of Ted Williams, who never won anything. In Chicago, Gale Sayers and Dick Butkus have legendary status despite playing on losing teams. And even in the NBA, where guys seem obsessed with being viewed as ‘the man’, real men like Barkley, Ewing and Baylor are ringless, but revered.
> 
> “Despite such evidence to the contrary, LeBron James seems to think he needs a ring to change his life and secure his legacy. Maybe he’ll get one, maybe he won’t, but it’s probable that no amount of rings will ever remove the stench he wallowed in last week. LeBron may yet find that in the court of public opinion, just as putting on a tux can’t make a guy a gentleman, winning a ring can’t make one truly a champion.”


----------



## HB

*Jordan isn't alone, Magic weighs in too*



> Basketball hall of famer Magic Johnson said he never would have joined with Larry Bird to win a championship the way LeBron James is teaming with Dwyane Wade.
> 
> Johnson, who won five National Basketball Association championships with the Los Angeles Lakers, joins fellow hall of famer Michael Jordan in saying they would focus more on beating their rivals than joining them.
> 
> “We didn’t think about it cause that’s not what we were about,” said Johnson, whose Michigan State squad beat Bird’s Indiana State team in the 1979 National Collegiate Athletic Association championship. “From college, I was trying to figure out how to beat Larry Bird.”
> 
> James, the two-time reigning NBA Most Valuable Player, left the Cleveland Cavaliers on July 8 after seven seasons to sign with the Miami Heat. There he will join fellow All-Stars Wade and Chris Bosh, a free-agent who joined Miami from the Toronto Raptors. James has never won a title, though he led the Cavaliers to the NBA Finals and semifinals.
> 
> Bird, a hall of famer who played for the Boston Celtics, and Johnson also faced each other in the NBA Finals three out of four years from 1984-1987, with Magic’s Lakers winning twice.
> 
> Jordan, a six-time NBA champion and currently the majority owner of the Charlotte Bobcats, made his comments over the weekend at a charity golf tournament. Johnson spoke about the possibility of joining Bird and Jordan on the same team in an interview this morning at Baruch College in New York.
> 
> “It was never a question in our mind because nobody has ever done that,” he said.
> 
> Johnson’s Career


He's right, Magic going to team up with Bird to win a championship would never have happened.


----------



## kflo

HB said:


> He's right, Magic going to team up with Bird to win a championship would never have happened.


yes. because he won a ring his rookie year playing with kareem instead.


----------



## BeeGee

HB said:


> *Bryant Gumbel also wades in*


Love the pun = "Bryant Gumbel *Wades *In" I completely agree with this statement. Whether the dude wins or not, he's a sellout. "Well he gave them 7 seasons...", as if suddenly, there's a built-in time limit on turning your star player into a champion before he "has no other choice" than to bolt for a chance elsewhere. He made a complete buffoon of himself in an unforgettable act of grandstanding-turned-self ownage, but anyone commenting against "The Decision" is labeled a hater?


----------



## kflo

HB said:


> *Bryant Gumbel also wades in*


that's pretty hysterical. again, real men like barkley just got themselves traded instead. and as if ewing wasn't obsessed with retaining his status as "the man" on the knicks even after it was apparent he no longer should be. or that either will be anywhere near as "revered" at the end of the day as lebron will be. and no, dan marino being ringless is never held against him.


----------



## kflo

BeeGee said:


> Love the pun = "Bryant Gumbel *Wades *In" I completely agree with this statement. Whether the dude wins or not, he's a sellout. "Well he gave them 7 seasons...", as if suddenly, there's a built-in time limit on turning your star player into a champion before he "has no other choice" than to bolt for a chance elsewhere. He made a complete buffoon of himself in an unforgettable act of grandstanding-turned-self ownage, but anyone commenting against "The Decision" is labeled a hater?


you're not just commenting. it's part of your sig. you might be a hater if....


----------



## HB

kflo said:


> that's pretty hysterical. again, real men like barkley just got themselves traded instead. and as if ewing wasn't obsessed with retaining his status as "the man" on the knicks even after it was apparent he no longer should be. or that either will be anywhere near as "revered" at the end of the day as lebron will be. and no, dan marino being ringless is never held against him.


You've been adamantly defending Bron's position in this thread, good for you...some of us don't see things that way. True competitors dont go and join up with their competition to make things easier. 

There's no way you watch those Bird and Magic docs and think man these two would have played together on the same team.


----------



## HB

kflo said:


> yes. because he won a ring his rookie year playing with kareem instead.


Lol so Magic who was Bird's biggest rival in college would have entertained the thought of playing with Bird without Kareem? Hilarious.


----------



## kflo

HB said:


> Lol so Magic who was Bird's biggest rival in college would have entertained the thought of playing with Bird without Kareem? Hilarious.


biggest rival in college? they played once. that precluded them from ever playing together? 

he would have entertained the thought of improving his situation if his situation wasn't as good as it was. and yes, if he was drafted by the celts he would have welcomed playing with bird (who was drafted the year before).


----------



## HB

No just stop it, thats all hypothetical. You need to watch the Magic and Bird documentary to truly understand the rivalry between both players. Also don't forget the era those two grew up in, their views on life was different. All this chummy chummy nonsense in the NBA wasn't as prevalent back then. I can say it confidently that Magic would not have gone to play with Bird and vice versa regardless of whether he had won a ring or not.

You are talking two dudes with egos the size of mountains, and then they'd team up to win championships together? Come on man!


----------



## Diable

Am I mistaken or were Magic and Bird not rivals because they played for the two best teams in the league? Would they have been the same if they had played for the Hawks and the Nuggets. Bird and Magic hardly needed more help than they had. Like everyone else they won (and lost) titles with stacked rosters. Jordan won titles with stacked rosters, Pippen was probably the best wingman in the history of the game.

You guys come up with all these ridiculous arguments which somehow mesh perfectly with your own agendas, but you can't show us anyone who ever won without a lot of help. Hell Lebron's already come about as close as anyone. That team the Spurs stomped was totally bereft of talent. So far as individual 'singlehanded' accomplishments go that's probably the top performance of anyone. Even Iverson had more help in a great coach and better roleplayers. The East was a lot more rancid at that point also. They certainly didn't need to beat a good team to get there.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

kflo said:


> and greater ability to throw stones.
> 
> the motivation is the same. you could argue even greater for someone in lebron's class. if you don't have confidence in mgmt, in your team, and the years are going by, you eventually do something about it. they all have, regardless of level of class. yes, lebron disappointed cleveland. but loyalty has it's limits. lebron had options, and everyone was aware.


Greater ability to win is the key here. Lebron can take a team much farther than Barkley could. You think leaving Cleveland is the courageous thing to do? Hell no. What happened to the 'finishing what you started' idea. Sticking it out in a small market, underdog team and leading them would have been 'honorable'. Going to a more glamorous city to share the #1 role is not.

Lebron is 25. If he left at 31 with no rings like a KG situation, then fans would be grateful for his years of service. 

LOL @ Ehmunro. There was a big ass mural in downtown Cleveland that said 'We are all witnesses'.


----------



## HB

Chan said:


> Greater ability to win is the key here. Lebron can take a team much farther than Barkley could. You think leaving Cleveland is the courageous thing to do? Hell no. *What happened to the 'finishing what you started' idea. Sticking it out in a small market, underdog team and leading them would have been 'honorable'. Going to a more glamorous city to share the #1 role is not.*
> 
> Lebron is 25. If he left at 31 with no rings like a KG situation, then fans would be grateful for his years of service.
> 
> LOL @ Ehmunro. There was a big ass mural that said 'We are all witnesses' in downtown Cleveland to dispute your claim.


Everytime I see BeeGee's sig, I just shake my head at how much of a punk Bron is.


----------



## kflo

HB said:


> No just stop it, thats all hypothetical. You need to watch the Magic and Bird documentary to truly understand the rivalry between both players. Also don't forget the era those two grew up in, their views on life was different. All this chummy chummy nonsense in the NBA wasn't as prevalent back then. I can say it confidently that Magic would not have gone to play with Bird and vice versa regardless of whether he had won a ring or not.
> 
> You are talking two dudes with egos the size of mountains, and then they'd team up to win championships together? Come on man!


you're also talking about 2 guys who won titles every other year to start their careers. it's not remotely similar. and their real rivalry didn't really fully develop until they actually played each other in the '84 finals (at the same time they became friends, ironically). they had no need to contemplate improving their situations significantly because they were in great situations, and consistently winning. at what point in their respective careers would it have been even a remote possibility for them to think about playing together? magic signed a 25 year contract in '81! it was them winning and competing against each other in the finals (3x) that created the rivalry. wade and lebron aren't playing in the finals every year. they don't have hof players around them. they're playing on flawed teams that needed help and had limited up and coming talent. 

dr j and moses had big egos. the '81 and '82 mvp got together in '83. to win their only nba title. kobe is the guy in the bird/magic situation. not lebron and not wade. 

you can't separate bird and magic and the rivalry they had from the situations they were in.


----------



## kflo

Chan said:


> Greater ability to win is the key here. Lebron can take a team much farther than Barkley could. You think leaving Cleveland is the courageous thing to do? Hell no. What happened to the 'finishing what you started' idea. Sticking it out in a small market, underdog team and leading them would have been 'honorable'. Going to a more glamorous city to share the #1 role is not.
> 
> Lebron is 25. If he left at 31 with no rings like a KG situation, then fans would be grateful for his years of service.
> 
> LOL @ Ehmunro. There was a big ass mural in downtown Cleveland that said 'We are all witnesses'.


you think staying loyal in the face of bad leadership and personnel decisions is the "courageous" thing to do? you think it's about honor? 

this has nothing to do with leaving cleveland, and everything to do with where he did end up going. and how he announced it.


----------



## HB

Either they fabricated their rivalry in that Magic and Bird doc...or you know something we dont. Yes they were friends, but they weren't friends enough to want to team up. These guys took pride in winning and they both wanted to be the main guy. Are you saying Magic was making up stuff when he said he wouldn't done what Bron did?

Again you seem to be forgetting the era these two players play in and the psyche of the people in that era. Is it weird that guys like MJ, Barkley and more keep saying the same.

Yes Bron and Wade dont have hof players around them, but who's to say thats how their careers would have played out. Its not like the Cavs NEVER made moves.


----------



## PauloCatarino

HB said:


> Either they fabricated their rivalry in that Magic and Bird doc...or you know something we dont. Yes they were friends, but they weren't friends enough to want to team up. These guys took pride in winning and they both wanted to be the main guy. *Are you saying Magic was making up stuff when he said he wouldn't done what Bron did?*
> 
> Again you seem to be forgetting the era these two players play in and the psyche of the people in that era. Is it weird that guys like MJ, Barkley and more keep saying the same.
> 
> Yes Bron and Wade dont have hof players around them, but who's to say thats how their careers would have played out. Its not like the Cavs NEVER made moves.


Yes. Both MJ and Buck are lying. Filthy liars!


----------



## kflo

HB said:


> Either they fabricated their rivalry in that Magic and Bird doc...or you know something we dont. Yes they were friends, but they weren't friends enough to want to team up. These guys took pride in winning and they both wanted to be the main guy. Are you saying Magic was making up stuff when he said he wouldn't done what Bron did?
> 
> Yes Bron and Wade dont have hof players around them, but who's to say thats how their careers would have played out. Its not like the Cavs NEVER made moves.


i'm saying magic can't say what he would have done when he never came close to being in that position. he entered the league teamed with kareem freakin abdul jabbar. who cares if he wouldn't have played with bird. maybe lebron wouldn't have played with kobe. magic did play with kareem. why are we even talking about whether he would have played with bird when he actually did play with kareem? 

magic never made it about being the main guy. just winning.


----------



## HB

kflo said:


> i'm saying magic can't say what he would have done when he never came close to being in that position. he entered the league teamed with kareem freakin abdul jabbar. who cares if he wouldn't have played with bird. maybe lebron wouldn't have played with kobe. magic did play with kareem. why are we even talking about whether he would have played with bird when he actually did play with kareem?
> 
> magic never made it about being the main guy. just winning.


You do realize you are basically saying you know the guy better than he knows himself right?

No one is saying Bron shouldn't play with quality players...but this guy went and joined up with two premier players. The Bulls, Nets, Clippers and Knicks were all teams that were tailor made for him to step in and he wouldn't get this much vitriol. The supposed best player in the league, left his team to go team up with two other established super stars. So competitive 'rolls eyes'

I guess for him the only competition he wants is no competition


----------



## Ron

HB said:


> Everytime I see BeeGee's sig, I just shake my head at how much of a punk Bron is.


Yeah, its a great sig. Kudos to BG for exposing James' hypocrisy.

I understand LeBron moving, believe me, I get it. I wouldn't have returned to Cleveland either. But he needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He should never have said that he won't stop until he brings a title to Cleveland. It makes him look like a certified idiot.


----------



## HB

I just find it interesting, Gumbel, Barkley, MJ, Magic, basically guys who grew up in a certain era find the move troubling....if I recall HKF said the same that a lot of the old guard don't like what Bron did.


----------



## kflo

HB said:


> You do realize you are basically saying you know the guy better than he knows himself right?
> 
> No one is saying Bron shouldn't play with quality players...but this guy went and joined up with two premier players. The Bulls, Nets, Clippers and Knicks were all teams that were tailor made for him to step in and he wouldn't get this much vitriol. The supposed best player in the league, left his team to go team up with two other established super stars. So competitive 'rolls eyes'
> 
> I guess for him the only competition he wants is no competition


are you even addressing what i just said - i said he played with kareem. why is it so important that he's saying he wouldn't have played with bird when he did in fact play with kareem? from day 1.


----------



## HB

kflo said:


> are you even addressing what i just said - i said he played with kareem. why is it so important that he's saying he wouldn't have played with bird when he did in fact play with kareem? from day 1.


Because its all hypothetical from that point on...yes we know he teamed up with Kareem, but neither of us know what would have happened if he didnt play with another HOF player. Most likely he does look for ways to win a championship, but to go team up with another top 3-5 player of his generation....I am not sure about that. What we do know is that THE MAN himself said he wouldn't have done that...you on the other hand say we should disregard that.


----------



## HB

Bottom line it boils down to how good you think Wade is, some people consider him the third best player in the league, some even say he is the best guard in the league. So the question is would Magic have teamed up with a guy considered as good or close to being as good as he is? Same goes for MJ and of course Barkley? I dont think so.


----------



## Jakain

FWIW the past greats did team up to take on the likes of Angola and the rest of the underdeveloped basketball world on one of the most legendary rosters of all time


----------



## BeeGee

Ron said:


> Yeah, its a great sig. Kudos to BG for exposing James' hypocrisy.
> 
> I understand LeBron moving, believe me, I get it. I wouldn't have returned to Cleveland either. But he needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He should never have said that he won't stop until he brings a title to Cleveland. It makes him look like a certified idiot.


Yeh and then to leave the way he did. To make Jim Gray, the epitome of "the snake reporter", a part of "The Decision"... The kids as props-MY BAD-it was for the kids... The school background, to give it some sort of hometown feel, even though this clown was in Connecticut... The audacity of the entire slimeball ESPN production... almost nauseating.

I find it funny that some are wondering why the old-heads have a problem respecting what he did. To hear people talk about his time in Cleveland, you'd think they won just 16 games, not 61. You'd think that Lebron never even sniffed the NBA Finals. You'd think he's been shortchanged on the NBA experience, a great player stuck in an embarrassing situation.

But nah. This was about self-entitlement. For years, Lebron James and the O'Brien trophy have been spoken of in a sense that there was no way he wouldn't get a title, and sooner than later. It's been spoken of as if there's a championship set aside for him, as if it were guaranteed to him because of how great a player he is and will be. In my humble, the mounting pressure of those expectations, along with the expectations that not only flow through Lebron's veins, but are tatted on his skin... became too much.

So he quit.

He sold out for a chance at a microwave title, as if it's gonna make everything right in the universe of Lebron James.

Maybe he doesn't think he sold out, lost respect, or even cares about any of that. Maybe he's gonna spill the beans on his side of the story (with Dan Gilbert) and surprise us all one day. I don't know. 

But people are simply calling this how they see it. I know I am and I know that a big part of me won't have much respect for The King finally getting his title, if and when he does get it. But I guess I'm just one of those old heads.


----------



## seifer0406

HB said:


> You do realize you are basically saying you know the guy better than he knows himself right?
> 
> No one is saying Bron shouldn't play with quality players...but this guy went and joined up with two premier players. The Bulls, Nets, Clippers and Knicks were all teams that were tailor made for him to step in and he wouldn't get this much vitriol. The supposed best player in the league, left his team to go team up with two other established super stars. So competitive 'rolls eyes'
> 
> I guess for him the only competition he wants is no competition


Like I said, Lebron would get criticism no matter where he goes. You actually think that MJ would have nice words for Lebron if Lebron chose Chicago? You don't think MJ would feel that his legacy would be threatened by Lebron if Lebron ends up building a dynasty?

Lebron said way before the free agency started that he would join a team that gives him the best opportunity to win. Funny how nobody criticized him then. Did anybody come out and say, "Hey! If Lebron goes to the best situation things would be too easy for him. He would be taking the easiest way out." No, because it made sense back then but somehow it doesn't make any sense now.


----------



## HB

March 31st 2010 is still this year no? Should he not get criticized for being so dishonest?


----------



## Ron

HB said:


> March 31st 2010 is still this year no? Should he not get criticized for being so dishonest?


Exactly 99 days fall between March 31, 2010 and July 8, 2010, a date that will live in infamy.

99 days. 99 days to forget a proclamation.

Wow, and I thought I had short-term memory loss. :|


----------



## seifer0406

HB said:


> March 31st 2010 is still this year no? Should he not get criticized for being so dishonest?


He should be criticized for making such a promise to his fans especially to those that actually believed him. But then again, this isn't the first time that athletes or owners made promises of championships to fans. I mean almost every single time when an owner or coach or a big player joins a team they will make a claim somewhere in the press conference "Our goal is to bring a championship to the city." The only difference with Lebron is that he promised that he wouldn't stop trying. So I guess the next time somebody else makes such a statement we should just assume that they *would* stop trying at some point. To me this is just a ploy to glorify his own image/ego, just like the TV special. And like the TV special, the thing backfired on him. It's safe to say that when it comes to public relations, Lebron isn't anywhere close to being a king.

But anyway, these are separate statements though. I don't see how one thing should change the opinion of the other.


----------



## Jakain

Pretty good response that summarizes why Magic's situation and other past greats don't stack up to LeBron's (although I do agree that LeBron handled leaving Cleveland in a horrible and stupid way):



> TrueHoop reader Mike, however, takes special exception to the idea that Johnson would stick with a mediocre roster over playing with superstars. He e-mails:
> 
> As much as I admire and respect these players, it becomes hard to take them seriously when none of them had situations comparable to LeBron, and all of the them got to play with other great, Top-50 All-Time players. *The quest to play with other elite talent is basically universal amongst stars*, be it Wilt going to join Hal Greer and later Jerry West and Elgin Baylor or all the way up to Kobe openly flirting with the Bulls and Clippers and threatening trade demands until the Lakers acquired Pau Gasol.
> 
> The fact that LeBron simply exercised his rights as a free agent to leave Cleveland to do what countless other players have done, rather than demand trades or refuse to play for the team that drafted him, should not be held against him.
> 
> I'm not even a fan of LeBron, but at this point I think he's getting dumped on pretty unfairly.
> 
> And in the case of Magic Johnson, Mike has done his homework. He found a Mike Downey L.A. Times article from 1991:
> *Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls. *
> 
> "I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life." Chicago called heads in a 1979 coin flip with Los Angeles for the No. 1 pick in the NBA college draft. It came up tails.
> 
> Johnson signed with the Lakers after his sophomore year of college and proceeded to win five championships. The Bulls picked second, took UCLA's David Greenwood and have won no championships.
> 
> "I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. *"The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers."*
> 
> Then Mike gets to comparing the Lakers who played with Johnson in his first seven years to the Cavaliers who played with James over the same period. Johnson's teammates, in aggregate, had:
> 
> Two first team All-Rookie selections (Byron Scott, James Worthy)
> 11 All-Star appearances (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar seven times, Norm Nixon twice, Worthy, Jamaal Wilkes)
> Four All-NBA first team selections (Abdul-Jabbar)
> Two All-NBA second team selections (Abdul-Jabbar)
> Five All-Defensive first team selections (Michael Cooper three times, Abdul-Jabbar twice)
> Four All-Defensive second team selections (Cooper three times, Abdul-Jabbar once)
> One MVP Award (Abdul-Jabbar)
> In addition, Abdul-Jabbar, Worthy, Wilkes, Nixon, and Cooper all got votes for MVP at one point in time or the other during Magic's first seven years, and Cooper won defensive player of the year in Johnson's eighth year.
> 
> *Mike does a similar analysis on James' Cavs' rosters:*
> 
> Zero first team All-Rookie Selections
> Two All-Star game appearances (Mo Williams, Zydrunas llgauskas)
> Zero All-NBA first team selection
> Zero All-NBA second team selections
> Zero All-Defensive first team selections
> One All-Defensive second team selection (Anderson Vareajo)
> Zero MVP Awards
> 
> Mike adds, in conclusion:
> 
> *In order to have a situation even comparable to Magic's, LeBron would have needed to be drafted onto, say, Tim Duncan's team (to parallel Abdul-Jabbar), played the last six years with a prime Bruce Bowen (to parallel Michael Cooper), and had the Cavs draft Danny Granger in his third year (as a parallel to Worthy), and that's ignoring guys like Scott/Wilkes/McAdoo etc.*
> 
> I mean, let's be real, if LeBron had been in a situation like that does anyone doubt that he would have stayed? That he would already have multiple titles and that we'd be talking about his place amongst the top 10-15 players of all-time instead of dumping on his competitive fire? Magic had it easy, which make his comments seem absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> *I'll acknowledge there's a chicken and egg thing here.* I can hear the argument now: If James had been a better leader, then the Cavaliers would have won more titles which would have earned his teammates more accolades. *Even leaving aside entirely the reality that James has been about as productive as any player in NBA history, let's concede that point, and merely say: It's still not even close. *
> 
> In fact, there's a debate to be had about whether James' current SuperFriends team in Miami is as good as the one Johnson played for. Is Dwyane Wade more valuable than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar? It's an insane question without a real answer, but I think we can agree there are strong cases to be made on both sides of the equation, and though Wade has a much better PER (around 30 last season) Abdul-Jabbar's was still insanely high in the mid-20s through Johnson's first seven seasons, and Abdul-Jabbar almost never missed a game.
> 
> What it really comes down to is that Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson can say they wouldn't have stooped to seeking out teammates as good as Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. But bear in mind they also never had to confront the reality of seven years with the kinds of rosters James played on in Cleveland.
> 
> 
> http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/18462/magic-johnson-sought-elite-teammates-too


----------



## Adam

^LOL. Magic is such a scumbag. That quote is just more evidence (shows his hypocrisy). Talking about a guy who sold out Isiah and for two decades let Michael take the blame for Isiah getting left off the Dream Team when in fact Magic was the one who kept him off. He didn't get HIV from Cookie either.


----------



## LA68

f22egl said:


> Cleveland had opportunities to lock down free agents if LeBron had committed to stay in Cleveland, so I can't really completely blame Cleveland's management for LeBron not winning a ring. If LeBron had signed an extension last season, the Cavs could have had Artest or Ariza last season. Having Ariza or Artest guard Paul Pierce sounds a lot better than Anthony Parker and Jamario Moon.
> 
> I think Cleveland lost LeBron was with that Larry Hughes signing. I bet LeBron was thinking, "seriously, this is the best teammate you could find for me?" I'm not sure why they overpaid to keep Big Z either. BTW, it would be pretty funny if Cleveland had max cap space for 3 players and LeBron still chose to leave Cleveland because Miami has a better night scene.
> 
> think LeBron has an opportunity to still be an all time great anyways, especially if Wade declines and the Heat still manage to get rings. But in the short term, LeBron is going to get a lot criticism for his decision. LeBron did need help in the postseason- who doesn't? Cleveland wasn't going to get him a Scottie Pippen- nor does LeBron really seem to grind and mold players like Michael Jordan. It's not in his nature to call rookies "a flaming f*****)like MJ did to Kwame Brown in Washington.
> 
> LeBron clearly sees the ring as a validation for his career. He see President Obama calling Kobe the best player in the game, even though most people realize that LeBron (and Wade as well) could win a ring with that supporting cast of Gasol, Artest, Bynum, and Odom. He sees that people look at the # of rings rather than how players got them. But LeBron could still go down as a great player if he didn't win a ring in Cleveland; which won't certainly be the case in Miami- I think his career will be a disappointment if he doesn't win multiple rings.


Pierce cried for help, he got KG and Allen.
Kobe cried for help, he got Fish then Gasol. 
Wade needs help, he gets an effecitve Shaq. 
All these teams win rings. 

LeBron sees this and compares it to: Mo Williams, J. Moon, A Parker, old Ben Wallace, old Joe Smith, Old Shaq etc...

LeBron didn't just go to Miami for the talent, he went for the front office. Management he could trust would make good decisions. Acquire talent that actually would compliment him. 

He wanted to be on the good side of the swindle for a change. Most players today see this. 

Also, there isn't anything the Cavs could do or can do to put a team out there to match the Celtics, Magic or Lakers. Yet, these are the teams he would have to beat to get that ring. Amare ? Boozer ? not nearly enough. 

You need a whole team concept. The Magic have had this system in place since they began. Dominant player down low, shooters to spread the floor for him. Got to two finals. 

The Lakers have run the triangle mostly since 1999. Celtics have always gone after veterans with something left in the tank. And these teams win. 

What is the Cavs concept ?? Gameplan ?? Every joke told about LeBron was about how he isn't a king because he has no ring. Yet, the Cavs have no clue how to win a ring. So he went to a man who took three different franchises to the finals. 

He "trusts" Riley will make good decisions with personnel. That means more than most realize.


----------



## kflo

HB said:


> Bottom line it boils down to how good you think Wade is, some people consider him the third best player in the league, some even say he is the best guard in the league. So the question is would Magic have teamed up with a guy considered as good or close to being as good as he is? Same goes for MJ and of course Barkley? I dont think so.


What part of "he played with kareem" don't you understand? Magic didn't just team up with a top 3 player in the league. He teamed up with arguably top 3 all-freakin-time. Don't you think that answers the would he have played with question? 

Barkley played with hakeen and pippen. In his early 30s, coming off a very good year. He forced 2 trades to contenders. 

These questions were answered 15-30 years ago.


----------



## HB

Meaning Magic is just talking crap, because if he didnt play with Kareem he would have teamed up with another all time great right? Again tell me how do you know what Magic would have done if he didnt play with Kareem...

I guess inception isn't just a movie after all.


----------



## King George

seifer0406 said:


> Like I said, Lebron would get criticism no matter where he goes. You actually think that MJ would have nice words for Lebron if Lebron chose Chicago? You don't think MJ would feel that his legacy would be threatened by Lebron if Lebron ends up building a dynasty?
> 
> Lebron said way before the free agency started that he would join a team that gives him the best opportunity to win. Funny how nobody criticized him then. Did anybody come out and say, "Hey! If Lebron goes to the best situation things would be too easy for him. He would be taking the easiest way out." No, because it made sense back then but somehow it doesn't make any sense now.


Jordan's legacy is secure. Chicago has zero superstars. The best situation he chose was cowardly and cheap. I mean for all that he should've signed with Boston or LA as the 12th man if all he wants is rings.


----------



## King George

Jakain said:


> Pretty good response that summarizes why Magic's situation and other past greats don't stack up to LeBron's (although I do agree that LeBron handled leaving Cleveland in a horrible and stupid way):


this is alse because he has played with players with accolades such as Larry Hughes, Antwan Jamison, Shaquille O'neal, Ben Wallace.


----------



## Wade County

Most people on here think the Lakers are the favourites anyway...so I don't get what the big deal is?


----------



## Jakain

King George said:


> this is alse because he has played with players with accolades such as Larry Hughes, Antwan Jamison, Shaquille O'neal, Ben Wallace.


Yea that further proves the point; LeBron's supporting cast sucked ass compared to the likes of Magic's incredibly stacked team. All of those guys were basically way past their prime by the time they joined the Cavs and it seemed none of them were on the level capable of earning further accolades.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

kflo said:


> you think staying loyal in the face of bad leadership and personnel decisions is the "courageous" thing to do? you think it's about honor?
> 
> this has nothing to do with leaving cleveland, and everything to do with where he did end up going. and how he announced it.


Once again, he's 25 and the projected savior. He even said it himself that he 'won't stop' until he brings a championship to Cleveland. He doesn't get his way for the past 3-4 years and he quits on his goal of winning in his hometown. That is not courageous. That is cowardly.

Technically, you can disregard everything about honor or loyalty since it's all about hardware. But intangible things like honor & legacy go into the public perception of a player. It's undeniable that Lebron's public perception has plummeted since his announcement.

This has everything to do with leaving Cleveland. He said he'd win there. He was supposed to be the next great player bringing a franchise up from obscurity. Part of that was ESPN's media hype, the other half was Lebron's own self-promotion. He was on track, bring a bottom feeder to a playoff contender for several years. Then he quit on his city. By quitting, he became a liar. A quitter, a liar, a coward, and a really big douche. I'm not even a Cavs fan, but I can't call this anything else but despicable.


----------



## futuristxen

LA68 said:


> He "trusts" Riley will make good decisions with personnel. That means more than most realize.


Huge point.


----------



## HB

Yeah like he did the last 3 or so years right?


----------



## King George

Jakain said:


> Yea that further proves the point; LeBron's supporting cast sucked ass compared to the likes of Magic's incredibly stacked team. All of those guys were basically way past their prime by the time they joined the Cavs and it seemed none of them were on the level capable of earning further accolades.


It's not the point. Magic kept his teammates for the most part. Cleveland keeps overhauling it's roster to appease leBron James. The same LeBron james who couldn't keep his team in playoff contention when journeyman point guard Jeff McInnis got hurt. Magic was stepping up when all-world Kareeem had migraines. leBron can'ty step up when a journeyman goes down. Magic> LeBron period. LeBron james is supposed to make the same so much easier for people yet solid players like hughes, Williams, jamison all suck when teamed with leBron. lebron is more so the problem than his teammates.


----------



## Wade County




----------



## carlos710

King George said:


> It's not the point. Magic kept his teammates for the most part. Cleveland keeps overhauling it's roster to appease leBron James. The same LeBron james who couldn't keep his team in playoff contention when journeyman point guard Jeff McInnis got hurt. Magic was stepping up when all-world Kareeem had migraines. leBron can'ty step up when a journeyman goes down. Magic> LeBron period. LeBron james is supposed to make the same so much easier for people yet solid players like hughes, Williams, jamison all suck when teamed with leBron. lebron is more so the problem than his teammates.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just because lebron is the best player in the league is not a reason to say stupid things.


----------



## King George

Why would he trust RIles with personel? Riles lucked up on one championship. The exact same amount as LeBron went to, yeah he lost but he got there will less talent than he has now.


----------



## Adam

What's the persuasive argument here? That LeBron is a jerk? Welcome to 2003.

His ability as a basketball player hasn't changed in the past month so those of you trying to obfuscate that point are just confidence men.


----------



## Dre

Didn't King George turn in his credibility pass when he said that dumb **** about Magic?


----------



## seifer0406




----------



## King George

Dre™ said:


> Didn't King George turn in his credibility pass when he said that dumb **** about Magic?


I never said anything bad about Magic.


----------



## Jakain

King George said:


> It's not the point. Magic kept his teammates for the most part. Cleveland keeps overhauling it's roster to appease leBron James. The same LeBron james who couldn't keep his team in playoff contention when journeyman point guard Jeff McInnis got hurt. Magic was stepping up when all-world Kareeem had migraines. leBron can'ty step up when a journeyman goes down. Magic> LeBron period. LeBron james is supposed to make the same so much easier for people yet solid players like hughes, Williams, jamison all suck when teamed with leBron. lebron is more so the problem than his teammates.


Already addressed in that article, btw you're going to be the new *23AJ*:

"I'll acknowledge there's a chicken and egg thing here. I can hear the argument now: If James had been a better leader, then the Cavaliers would have won more titles which would have earned his teammates more accolades. Even leaving aside entirely the reality that James has been about as productive as any player in NBA history, let's concede that point, and merely say: It's still not even close."


----------



## Wade County

You said that the reason Kareem, Worthy et all are HoF'ers is solely because of Magic, and that he turned them into HoF'ers.

Said a similar thing about Bird too.


----------



## King George

Wade County said:


> You said that the reason Kareem, Worthy et all are HoF'ers is solely because of Magic, and that he turned them into HoF'ers.
> 
> Said a similar thing about Bird too.


I didn't say that about Karemm. I said it about Worthy and Parish and I'm correct. When Parrish was in GS how "great" was he considered? Statistically James Worthy is not that good. 17 and 5 is "great"?


----------



## King George

Jakain said:


> Already addressed in that article, btw you're going to be the new *23AJ*:
> 
> "I'll acknowledge there's a chicken and egg thing here. I can hear the argument now: If James had been a better leader, then the Cavaliers would have won more titles which would have earned his teammates more accolades. Even leaving aside entirely the reality that James has been about as productive as any player in NBA history, let's concede that point, and merely say: It's still not even close."


And they'd still be wrong. Jordan put up gawdy dumb numbers, he was considered a selfish ballhog, Allen Iverson scored tons and averaged like 8 assists he was still a cancerous ballhog. Stats don't tell the whole story. teh knock on Kobe was he didn't make anyone "better". leBron James was teh anti-kobe, yet when LeBron gets quality players they regress or stay the same, the problem has to be him.


----------



## seifer0406

See when you make a statement like that it's sort of like crapping your pants in the middle of a conversation. People can't pay attention to you when theres a big turd making its way through your pants. You need to change your pants and wipe your ass clean and come back. I suggest a new account and perhaps a couple of weeks for people to forget.


----------



## Game3525

Granted, who did Lebron get that was actually legit, I mean Mo was a better player playing with Lebron.....


----------



## Dre

He's like a dog that humps the TV no questions asked when you say "scooter"...and people just say "scooter" all day to keep entertained.


----------



## kflo

HB said:


> Meaning Magic is just talking crap, because if he didnt play with Kareem he would have teamed up with another all time great right? Again tell me how do you know what Magic would have done if he didnt play with Kareem...
> 
> I guess inception isn't just a movie after all.


HE DID PLAY WITH KAREEM!

why are you asking the question of whether he would have played with another top player when he PLAYED WITH ANOTHER TOP PLAYER???


----------



## King George

seifer0406 said:


> See when you make a statement like that it's sort of like crapping your pants in the middle of a conversation. People can't pay attention to you when theres a big turd making its way through your pants. You need to change your pants and wipe your ass clean and come back. I suggest a new account and perhaps a couple of weeks for people to forget.


Yall saying I said stuff I didn't say. You all are grasping at straws to help LeBron save face.


----------



## BeeGee

Lebron James had enough help to win in Cleveland. I don't give a cotdam who you are or what time you play in. If you can win 60 games and lock up homecourt throughout the playoffs in consecutive seasons, you have enough there to win. But you still have to perform as a team and win. 

The biggest joke to come out of all this Lebron discussion is the complete cop-out that he didn't have the teammates necessary to win a title. This team was 39-2 at home last year and 35-6 this season, and both years they held homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs.

They had enough to win and they had the advantages in their favor. Back in 06-07, they won 50 games, went down 0-2 to the Pistons in the conference finals, and backdoor-swept them to get to the finals, where they got broomed by the Spurs. They dipped the next year, but in the following 2 years were the winningest team in the league.

Lebron gets all of the credit when they win, and none of it when they lose.

It's a cop-out.


----------



## HB

kflo said:


> HE DID PLAY WITH KAREEM!
> 
> why are you asking the question of whether he would have played with another top player when he PLAYED WITH ANOTHER TOP PLAYER???


nvm


----------



## 77AJ

The teammate excuse has been a long running one for LeBron James. It's a pathetic attempt to rub the blame off James shoulders. After all he has a legacy to protect. In reality James had the players to win, but they failed as a team ( remember LeBron James putrid games against Boston). Secondly the year before, Cavs just faced a better team, and it didn't matter how well James and his team performed, they were not going to beat Orlando. The regular season, and prior years leading up to that playoff series pointed to that conclusion as well.

Here is when all of our opinions on this entire site will get some answers, this up coming season the Cavs will play with out LeBron James. They have a great team still with AV, Jamison, Mo Williams, Hickson, West, Parker, and etc I wouldn't be shocked at all if the Cavs make the playoffs and win between 45-50 games. Byron Scott is going to have this team ready and primed next year.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

A bunch of scared old legends, criticizing the guy who is the biggest threat to break all of their records and be better than them. Jakain's article is right on point. Magic is a hypocrite.


----------



## carlos710

BeeGee said:


> Lebron James had enough help to win in Cleveland. I don't give a cotdam who you are or what time you play in. If you can win 60 games and lock up homecourt throughout the playoffs in consecutive seasons, you have enough there to win. But you still have to perform as a team and win.


In the regular season you can win plenty of games just with defense and hustle. In the playoffs you need real talent in order to get far.

Seriously, seems like some people here either don't have any idea what they are talking about or they just hate Lebron.


----------



## 77AJ

Sir Patchwork said:


> A bunch of scared old legends, criticizing the guy who is the biggest threat to break all of their records and be better than them. Jakain's article is right on point. Magic is a hypocrite.


It's starting to seem like all the good ones are hypocrites, LeBron James included, if we want to make James accountable for his statements. Or do you have a ready made excuse for LeBron.


----------



## 77AJ

carlos710 said:


> In the regular season you can win plenty of games just with defense and hustle. In the playoffs you need real talent in order to get far.
> 
> Seriously, seems like some people here either don't have any idea what they are talking about or they just hate Lebron.


The 2006-07 Cleveland Cavs disagree with you completely. They trounced the Wizards, Nets, and Pistons on their way to the NBA Finals. The one and, only time LeBron James has been there. They made it because of James talents combined with one of the best defensive teams in the NBA. The Cavs defensive rating was 4th out of the 30 teams in the NBA. Oh yeah, and this was just a 50 win team. With much less talent (individually) than the 08-09 and 09-10 Cleveland Cavs teams.


----------



## R-Star

BeeGee said:


> Lebron James had enough help to win in Cleveland. I don't give a cotdam who you are or what time you play in. If you can win 60 games and lock up homecourt throughout the playoffs in consecutive seasons, you have enough there to win. But you still have to perform as a team and win.
> 
> The biggest joke to come out of all this Lebron discussion is the complete cop-out that he didn't have the teammates necessary to win a title. This team was 39-2 at home last year and 35-6 this season, and both years they held homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs.
> 
> They had enough to win and they had the advantages in their favor. Back in 06-07, they won 50 games, went down 0-2 to the Pistons in the conference finals, and backdoor-swept them to get to the finals, where they got broomed by the Spurs. They dipped the next year, but in the following 2 years were the winningest team in the league.
> 
> Lebron gets all of the credit when they win, and none of it when they lose.
> 
> It's a cop-out.


And this is the point no one Lebron fan wants to touch. You can go back and find posts from every single Lebron fan _(pre Miami Heat bandwagon)_ saying how deep the Cavs were getting with their signings and trades this past year and how they were up there with Boston and LA. The general sentiment was that the Cavs had finally got Lebron some guys who could help him so he didn't have to do it all alone.
Ask them now and its talk about how much their team sucked, and how Lebron was playing with no one. He can't win all by himself.

Absolute garbage. It's exactly that, a cop out. But they'll have excuse after excuse about how everything bad that happened was someone elses fault, and everything good was all because of him. Honestly, its absolutely pathetic.


----------



## R-Star

Sir Patchwork said:


> A bunch of scared old legends, criticizing the guy who is the biggest threat to break all of their records and be better than them. Jakain's article is right on point. Magic is a hypocrite.


Scared old legends?

Are you ****ing kidding me? edited

Not only is nothing Lebrons fault, but now Jordan, Bird and Magic are jealous? Jealous of a guy who not only doesn't have a ring, but a spoiled brat who left his hometown and basically gave them a big "**** you Cleveland!" on the way out?


----------



## R-Star

carlos710 said:


> In the regular season you can win plenty of games just with defense and hustle. In the playoffs you need real talent in order to get far.
> 
> Seriously, seems like some people here either don't have any idea what they are talking about or they just hate Lebron.


You're right. Its easy to put together a ****ty team and win 60+ games. It happens all the time.


----------



## 77AJ

What R-Star said. 

Even though, I'm James fan, and a Heat fan. It's as clear as the sky is blue. James had good teams built around him these past few years, and If it wasn't for the Magic, and Celtics. Maybe James and the Cavs would of contended for a title. Sometimes you have to stop placing blame on the Cavs team, and start giving some long over due credit to the greatness of the Boston Celtics, and Orlando Magics that beat James and the Cavs.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

23AJ said:


> It's starting to seem like all the good ones are hypocrites, LeBron James included, if we want to make James accountable for his statements. Or do you have a ready made excuse for LeBron.


LeBron is a hypocrite. Probably a terrible person too. Doesn't bother me. I don't get emotional over players like some fans. I just like to talk about their basketball ability, and when people start factoring in stupid stuff like "loyalty" or percieved "competitiveness" into evaluating basketball players, it's stupid as ****. 

LeBron decided to go to Miami. He is still the same player he was, on a different team. He is still well ahead of the curve to become the greatest basketball player of all-time based on his basketball playing ability (which is what counts).


----------



## seifer0406

R-Star said:


> And this is the point no one Lebron fan wants to touch. You can go back and find posts from every single Lebron fan _(pre Miami Heat bandwagon)_ saying how deep the Cavs were getting with their signings and trades this past year and how they were up there with Boston and LA. The general sentiment was that the Cavs had finally got Lebron some guys who could help him so he didn't have to do it all alone.
> Ask them now and its talk about how much their team sucked, and how Lebron was playing with no one. He can't win all by himself.
> 
> Absolute garbage. It's exactly that, a cop out. But they'll have excuse after excuse about how everything bad that happened was someone elses fault, and everything good was all because of him. Honestly, its absolutely pathetic.


If you follow this thread and a couple threads before plenty of people have "touched" this point. This is like the 3rd and 4th time that BeeGee has said this and it's obvious that nobody is going bend him through logic and facts. I'm tired myself of arguing with him over the same things when he has already failed like twice to support his point.

This is probably the first time that I agree with 23AJ. Let's just wait for the season to unfold and see how good this team really is. If the Cavs make the playoffs, we eat crow. If they end up with a 30 win season or worse, you guys eat it. Simple as that.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

R-Star said:


> Are you ****ing kidding me? edited


Says the guy who is on the "reverse bandwagon" haha. It's hard for anyone to even see his dick when you won't share.


----------



## carlos710

R-Star said:


> You're right. Its easy to put together a ****ty team and win 60+ games. It happens all the time.


When you have a guy like Lebron who despite all your hate most likely is going to end his carrer as a top 10 player ever, yes, it's easy

You may hate him the of your life if you want to. He won't be less of a player just because you don't like him


----------



## R-Star

seifer0406 said:


> If you follow this thread and a couple threads before plenty of people have "touched" this point. This is like the 3rd and 4th time that BeeGee has said this and it's obvious that nobody is going bend him through logic and facts. I'm tired myself of arguing with him over the same things when he has already failed like twice to support his point.
> 
> This is probably the first time that I agree with 23AJ. Let's just wait for the season to unfold and see how good this team really is. If the Cavs make the playoffs, we eat crow. If they end up with a 30 win season or worse, you guys eat it. Simple as that.


They are going to dismantle the Cavs, so no, I'm not buying into that sentiment. They are going to start getting the team ready for a rebuild by freeing up cap room and probably trying to get some young talent, and guys like you will be coming at the end of next year saying "See! They SUCK!" when 50% of the veteran players have been allowed to walk or have been traded away.


----------



## seifer0406

**I'll just edit myself**


----------



## R-Star

carlos710 said:


> When you have a guy like Lebron who despite all your hate most likely is going to end his carrer as a top 10 player ever, yes, it's easy
> 
> You may hate him the of your life if you want to. He won't be less of a player just because you don't like him


edited


----------



## R-Star

seifer0406 said:


> lol I suggest R-Star to take a colonic. I can't suck Lebron because he had mud on the turtle when he pulled out from R-star.


Because I didn't jump on the bandwagon? Yea. Makes sense.

"Look at that loser! He didn't even jump on the bandwagon! He must really love Lebron since he doesn't have his poster above his bed like the rest of us."


----------



## 77AJ

Sir Patchwork said:


> LeBron is a hypocrite. Probably a terrible person too. Doesn't bother me. I don't get emotional over players like some fans. I just like to talk about their basketball ability, and when people start factoring in stupid stuff like "loyalty" or percieved "competitiveness" into evaluating basketball players, it's stupid as ****.
> 
> LeBron decided to go to Miami. He is still the same player he was, on a different team. He is still well ahead of the curve to become the greatest basketball player of all-time based on his basketball playing ability (which is what counts).


LeBron James is the same player he was, but so is Dwyane Wade. A top three player in the game. That changes the construct of James legacy from here on out. His statistical dominance will diminish, his leadership role will change. It's now a shared role in all aspect with Dwayne Wade, and to a lesser extent with Chris Bosh. That certainly will affect his legacy. However I don't pretend I can predict the future, I do think it's fair to believe had James stayed in Cleveland or on any team that had good players, but not a top 3 guy in the world, his role probably wouldn't diminish, as it it's bound to in Miami. Again I could be wrong, but that's how things are looking to shape up in my view.

Secondly, you call this loyalty and competiveness etc etc stupid. However it's the same stuff LeBron James ran his mouth about for 7 years, declaring a championship to boot. None of it happened, and James has a history of taking his ball and running stage left when things turn south. This was the ultimate IMO It went so South to James losing again in the playoffs, he decided to go all the way to South Beach. And everything he once beckoned and articulated to the national media was abandoned. 

The definition of a hypocrite for you Sir Patchwork.

Hypocrite 
One who plays a part; especially, one who, for the purpose of winning approbation of favor, puts on a fair outside seeming; one who feigns to be other and better than he is; a false pretender to virtue or piety; one who simulates virtue or piety.

It fits James to a T right now. 

I'm fine with it though myself, I'm happy to see a Rock Star Team, and I'll be happy if they smash records, and turn into a Dynasty. However if you're going to call out Magic Johnson for being a hypocrite, make sure you don't turn a blind eye to the biggest hypocrite of his generation right now LeBron James.

With that being said, to quote the eloquent Ahmad Rashad, LeBron James is my main man!

Go Miami Heat!!


----------



## seifer0406

R-Star said:


> They are going to dismantle the Cavs, so no, I'm not buying into that sentiment. They are going to start getting the team ready for a rebuild by freeing up cap room and probably trying to get some young talent, and guys like you will be coming at the end of next year saying "See! They SUCK!" when 50% of the veteran players have been allowed to walk or have been traded away.


lol you don't have to worry about that. Dan Gilbert promised you that the Cavs will win a championship before Lebron does. Blowing up a team will just take too long. And why would you blow it up if it's a good team?


----------



## R-Star

If I'm the only one who gets an infraction Dre I'm going to ****ing murder you.

Keep that in mind you bandwagon hack.


----------



## Dre

Calm the hell down or I'll close this and you can take it to one of the other 78 LeBron threads.


----------



## Game3525

23AJ said:


> What R-Star said.
> 
> *Even though, I'm James fan, and a Heat fan*. It's as clear as the sky is blue. James had good teams built around him these past few years, and If it wasn't for the Magic, and Celtics. Maybe James and the Cavs would of contended for a title. Sometimes you have to stop placing blame on the Cavs team, and start giving some long over due credit to the greatness of the Boston Celtics, and Orlando Magics that beat James and the Cavs.


:baseldance:


----------



## R-Star

seifer0406 said:


> lol you don't have to worry about that. Dan Gilbert promised you that the Cavs will win a championship before Lebron does. Blowing up a team will just take too long. And why would you blow it up if it's a good team?


Because their best player left? 

"lol" "lol" you sound like a child. Which probably explains why you don't seem to understand that having quality veteran role players surround a generational talent like Lebron James isn't going to work when you take Lebron out of the picture. You don't build a team around veteran complimentary players, that should be pretty self explanatory.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Okay, LeBron James is a hypocrite. As is Magic Johnson. I never gave a damn about anything LeBron said, and I don't give a damn what Magic or Jordan say. It's not what they say that makes them great. It's their basketball ability. So why do people hang themselves on everything they say? Who cares? They're basketball players. They play basketball. 

I disagree that LeBron's legacy will be negatively affected. I think it will actually help him because Wade will fall into a Pippen role. We'll see though.


----------



## 77AJ

Game3525 said:


> :baseldance:


way to contribute and add to the thread. I mean seriously , are you in need of attention that much to post something as irrelevant and mindless as that ? Clue number one, quote, and respond with something of merit. Or else you're just trolling.


----------



## R-Star

Dre™ said:


> Calm the hell down or I'll close this and you can take it to one of the other 78 LeBron threads.


No worries. And you start modding even handedly and quit losing your temper when someone doesn't want to high five the Lebron fans.

The only Lebron threads that have been closed are ones where non bandwagon fans state their opinion. 

Having 3 million "Lebron has signed in Miami! HURRAY!" or "THE BEST 3 PLAYERS FOR EVERS!!!!!" is ok, but having one or two threads where people question the move is too many......

Mod it even handedly, or find someone else who can.


----------



## Game3525

23AJ said:


> way to contribute and add to the thread. I mean seriously , are you in need of attention that much to post something as irrelevant and mindless as that ? Clue number one, quote, and respond with something of merit. Or else you're just trolling.


I am sorry, but what you just posted was comical. You were the biggest Lebron hater just a couple of weeks ago, what the hell happened?


----------



## TheDarkPrince

carlos710 said:


> When you have a guy like Lebron who despite all your hate most likely is going to end his carrer as a top 10 player ever, yes, it's easy
> 
> You may hate him the of your life if you want to. He won't be less of a player just because you don't like him


Jordan and Kobe in their primes were better than Lebron. Neither guy was able to win 60+ games with garbage as team mates.


----------



## 77AJ

Sir Patchwork said:


> Okay, LeBron James is a hypocrite. As is Magic Johnson. I never gave a damn about anything LeBron said, and I don't give a damn what Magic or Jordan say. It's not what they say that makes them great. It's their basketball ability. So why do people hang themselves on everything they say? Who cares? They're basketball players. They play basketball.
> 
> I disagree that LeBron's legacy will be negatively affected. I think it will actually help him because Wade will fall into a Pippen role. We'll see though.


Now this is a statement I can get behind. It's fair, and the opinion is a fair one. We shall wait and see who's opinion is closer to the truth. As both our opinions may fall some where on the edges, and the truth fall more into the middle. Should be one hell of an up coming season though. 

Take my advice Patch, get your tickets now for the games the Heat come to your city. It should be a fun rocking sell out. I'm getting mine here in Portland.


----------



## seifer0406

R-Star said:


> Because their best player left?
> 
> "lol" "lol" you sound like a child. Which probably explains why you don't seem to understand that having quality veteran role players surround a generational talent like Lebron James isn't going to work when you take Lebron out of the picture. You don't build a team around veteran complimentary players, that should be pretty self explanatory.


How about this, let's wait until the Cavs actually trade their main players to worry about them dismantling their team. Wait until they trade away Jamison/Mo Williams/Varejao, hopefully for us the wheels would've already fallen off by then.


----------



## 77AJ

Game3525 said:


> I am sorry, but what you just posted was comical. You were the biggest Lebron hater just a couple of weeeks ago, what the hell happened?


Dwyane Wade and the Miami Heat is what happened. Always been a huge fan of the franchise/Brand, and D Wade. I'm super stoked for Wade, and in turn I've become a James fan. Good times for all. And it just shows you man we can all change! Should be a great season. Hope we get LA vs MIA in the finals.


----------



## Game3525

23AJ said:


> Dwyane Wade and the Miami Heat is what happened. Always been a huge fan of the franchise/Brand, and D Wade. I'm super stoked for Wade, and in turn I've become a James fan. Good times for all. And it just shows you man we can all change! Should be a great season. Hope we get LA vs MIA in the finals.


You became a Lebron "fan" because in your mind MJ's legacy is safe, so who is next? If CP3 join the Magic, will you be a fan?


----------



## Dre

R-Star said:


> No worries. And you start modding even handedly and quit losing your temper when someone doesn't want to high five the Lebron fans.
> 
> The only Lebron threads that have been closed are ones where non bandwagon fans state their opinion.
> 
> Having 3 million "Lebron has signed in Miami! HURRAY!" or "THE BEST 3 PLAYERS FOR EVERS!!!!!" is ok, but having one or two threads where people question the move is too many......
> 
> Mod it even handedly, or find someone else who can.



As I've said on any occasion somebody came to me on it that whole hWo **** was a joke. I'm not a Heat fan. I do enjoy LeBron James as a basketball player, but I don't feel strongly enough about any other man to be editing posts about him if it wasn't warranted.

If you want to keep at this PM me, otherwise please keep it constructive and I'll have no problems with the thread.


----------



## 77AJ

Game3525 said:


> You became a Lebron "fan" because in your mind MJ's legacy is safe, so who is next if CP3 join the Magic, will you be a fan?


Wow, I was being cordial with you. **** that noise ever again. 

You reminded me that there is really no point in ever responding to your posts. And if you have all the answers stop asking stupid ****ing questions. Also Welcome back to ignore troll. And have fun living in a world where you assume and wear a tee shirt that says I'm a know it all.


----------



## Game3525

23AJ said:


> Wow, I was being cordial with you. **** that noise ever again.
> 
> You reminded me that there is really no point in ever responding to your posts. And if you have all the answers stop asking stupid ****ing questions. Also Welcome back to ignore troll. And have fun living in a world where you assume and wear a tee shirt that says I'm a know it all.


Sorry, but the truth hurts. It is hilarious after all the crap you posted about Lebron the last few months, and now your his "biggest" fan. Your just a frontrunner....


----------



## 77AJ

Don't you just love it when certain posters just cant bear to stay on topic, but everything has to delve into some kind of personal insults. Astounding I tell you, just incredible. Anyways, moving on...


----------



## afobisme

Sir Patchwork said:


> I disagree that LeBron's legacy will be negatively affected. I think it will actually help him because Wade will fall into a Pippen role. We'll see though.


how will wade fall into the pippen role? wade's not 6'9, and he's not even close to being one of the best defenders of all time. he's basically what lebron is - a slasher who creates offense for his team. i think that is what the discussion is all about. it's about two guys who each bring a very similar brand of basketball to the same team.


----------



## jokeaward

Without stars: "Who needs 'em? At the end of the day, we have to get it done."
With two other stars: "Ubuntu, baby! Anything is possible!"


----------



## Wade County

Who said there needs to be a Pippen role?

Why can't there be 2 Jordan's, so to speak? Both Wade and Lebron are scorers and distributors.


----------



## afobisme

well that's what the debate is all about. there hasn't been a time in the nba that i can think of where 2 of the top 5 players are on the same team, while having similar games.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

afobisme said:


> how will wade fall into the pippen role? wade's not 6'9, and he's not even close to being one of the best defenders of all time. he's basically what lebron is - a slasher who creates offense for his team. i think that is what the discussion is all about. it's about two guys who each bring a very similar brand of basketball to the same team.


The comparison was not so much in style of play, but in caliber. I believe Wade will turn into LeBron's right hand man. I've always said he is LeBron-lite, but I think you underestimate what these guys are capable of as all-around players. Both guys are very capable of playing off the ball offensively, and both guys are very capable lockdown defenders, and also help defenders, so as long as they don't have to carry the entire offense. Hell, LeBron locked up Pierce badly *while* carrying the entire offense. Surely he can do much of the same with more help on offense. Wade is right there too. He is a great defender when he is able to actually give energy and not be forced to conserve so he can carry the offense. 

The only doubts I've had is neither are deadeye shooters from long range, but neither were Jordan or Pippen. As long as a shooter is on the court with them, it won't be a problem. Chalmers can shoot, Mike Miller can shoot, Z can shoot and even Bosh can shoot. You're looking at probably 2 of those guys on the court with them at any given time.


----------



## f22egl

LA68 said:


> Pierce cried for help, he got KG and Allen.
> Kobe cried for help, he got Fish then Gasol.
> Wade needs help, he gets an effecitve Shaq.
> All these teams win rings.


Pierce cried for help longer than LeBron though. Funny that LeBron actually wanted the Cavs to bring in Jamison; who was playing with a separated shoulder, so he's not that bad. I bet LeBron actually wanted the Cavs to bring in Shaq so he could matchup with Dwight Howard. 

If LeBron had stayed in Cleveland, he would have gotten a chance to win a title since the Celtics are getting old. Heck, even Kobe Bryant is getting old. Of course, one has to wonder if LeBron even thought he could beat an Orlando team or even Miami team if he stayed in Cleveland.


----------



## R-Star

Sir Patchwork said:


> The comparison was not so much in style of play, but in caliber. I believe Wade will turn into LeBron's right hand man. I've always said he is LeBron-lite, but I think you underestimate what these guys are capable of as all-around players. Both guys are very capable of playing off the ball offensively, and both guys are very capable lockdown defenders, and also help defenders, so as long as they don't have to carry the entire offense. Hell, LeBron locked up Pierce badly *while* carrying the entire offense. Surely he can do much of the same with more help on offense. Wade is right there too. He is a great defender when he is able to actually give energy and not be forced to conserve so he can carry the offense.
> 
> The only doubts I've had is neither are deadeye shooters from long range, but neither were Jordan or Pippen. As long as a shooter is on the court with them, it won't be a problem. Chalmers can shoot, Mike Miller can shoot, Z can shoot and even Bosh can shoot. You're looking at probably 2 of those guys on the court with them at any given time.


Uhhh what? Lebron and Wade aren't dead eye shooters, but its ok because Z and Bosh _can_?

Miller will play great as a perimeter shooter on the Heat, and Wade and Bron while not elite can knock down their fair share of shots as well. I just think what you said made absolutely no sense is all.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

R-Star said:


> Uhhh what? Lebron and Wade aren't dead eye shooters, but its ok because Z and Bosh _can_?
> 
> Miller will play great as a perimeter shooter on the Heat, and Wade and Bron while not elite can knock down their fair share of shots as well. I just think what you said made absolutely no sense is all.


LeBron and Wade are hesitant shooters because they're attackers by nature. They don't really want to shoot threes, although I agree they can knock down some shots. Z is definitely not a hesitant shooter and Bosh isn't either. Plus for a PF and C they both have three point range although typically Z likes to spot up just inside the three point line. 

Spacing is the key. Shooters create space and two slashers like LeBron and Wade will have a field day.


----------



## kflo

f22egl said:


> If LeBron had stayed in Cleveland, he would have gotten a chance to win a title since the Celtics are getting old. Heck, even Kobe Bryant is getting old. Of course, one has to wonder if LeBron even thought he could beat an Orlando team or even Miami team if he stayed in Cleveland.


this is true. it certainly helped jordan that the pistons, celts and lakers all got old pretty quick. the pistons weren't even that old, but they broke down and just weren't as good. that, combined with young talent that grew into very good (grant) to great (pippen) players was what assisted in their ascension to champs. along with phil and tex of course. 

the cavs weren't that far off obviously. they could at least compete for a title. but lebron was in a position to choose. he didn't have to put his faith anymore that someone else would emerge for them. he didn't have to put his faith anymore in that front office. or that the competition would take a step backwards.

i like that we're pretty much guaranteed to have lebron and wade playing deep into the playoffs every year, and the possibility of a super team is good theater (unless they're too good). i don't love it as a personal choice for lebron. but it's done. it's done. he's not the worst person in the world, and it doesn't destroy him as a person or a competitor. i'm curious to see how they do together. ideally, you'd have the superstars spread out competing against each other. i agree with that sentiment. it does create more drama and gives more franchises hope. but this IS the way it was. people talk about the glory days, and the glory days you knew who was going to play for the title.


----------



## TheDarkPrince

Sir Patchwork said:


> The comparison was not so much in style of play, but in caliber. I believe Wade will turn into LeBron's right hand man. I've always said he is LeBron-lite, but I think you underestimate what these guys are capable of as all-around players. Both guys are very capable of playing off the ball offensively, and both guys are very capable lockdown defenders, and also help defenders, so as long as they don't have to carry the entire offense. Hell, LeBron locked up Pierce badly *while* carrying the entire offense. Surely he can do much of the same with more help on offense. Wade is right there too. He is a great defender when he is able to actually give energy and not be forced to conserve so he can carry the offense.
> 
> The only doubts I've had is neither are deadeye shooters from long range, but neither were Jordan or Pippen. As long as a shooter is on the court with them, it won't be a problem. Chalmers can shoot, Mike Miller can shoot, Z can shoot and even Bosh can shoot. You're looking at probably 2 of those guys on the court with them at any given time.


Lebron isn't even close to being a "lock down" defender. He's average at best, but because he will every once in a while do his "run down block", people start gushing about his D. He's ok, but sure as hell not an elite defender.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Sir Patchwork said:


> LeBron is a hypocrite. Probably a terrible person too. Doesn't bother me. I don't get emotional over players like some fans. *I just like to talk about their basketball ability*, and when people start factoring in stupid stuff like "loyalty" or percieved "competitiveness" into evaluating basketball players, it's stupid as ****.


Then you should just get away from "GOAT" and "Legacy" discussions. 
Better yet, from threada like this very own, wich from the title one would conclude that there would be no "basketball ability"-centered discussion.
Just a thought. 



> LeBron decided to go to Miami. He is still the same player he was, on a different team. *He is still well ahead of the curve to become the greatest basketball player of all-time based on his basketball playing ability (which is what counts)*.


We shall see how it works for the Heat and LeTraitor.
If LeLiar's "basketball playing abiity" doesn't translate into stats and championships, it will be the same as saying that Derrick Coleman could have been one of the greatest PFs ever...


----------



## futuristxen

Course if it does work out, he'll go down as LeGreatest


----------



## futuristxen

TheDarkPrince said:


> Lebron isn't even close to being a "lock down" defender. He's average at best, but because he will every once in a while do his "run down block", people start gushing about his D. He's ok, but sure as hell not an elite defender.


He is a complete lock down defender who defends 4 sometimes 5 positions. If you need a stop or a big play at the end of a game he's the best one on one defender to have.

Like Kobe though sometimes he rests on defense. Won't have to do that with the Heat though.


----------



## Dre

You know, if this was "Magic: I wanted to beat Mike and Magic" the amount of posts here would be justified and they'd probably be so much more amazing.


----------



## PauloCatarino

futuristxen said:


> Course if it does work out, he'll go down as LeGreatest


Honestly, i have a hard time visioning LeQuitter, due to his "career change", getting near GOAT status. 
Obviously, this is all in antecipation, because the Heat haven't played a game yet, but odds, right now, are *against *LeSteroid.

1- How many All-time greats have played with a feloow current Top-5 (at least) player in his prime?
Just to add: and with an arguably current Top-15 player ALSO?
To my knowledge, this is unprecedented. When Wilt paired with West and Baylor, Wilt was no longer in his prime. When a young Magic paired with a prime Kareem there was no James Worthy in sight. Bird won plenty with MacHAle coming from the bench. And no, Kobe/Gasol/Ronny doesn't even come close.
So, even if LeLiar wins on the Heat squad, people will forever argue that nobody had the same kind of talent he had around him... And that brings me to my next point:

2- Delonte's stepson will play alongside Wade, who, himself, is a Franchise Player and who has carried the Heat's franchise in his back (with a championship to boot). Unless Wade decides to be a spot-up shooter (which he can't be) LEQuitter's stats will suffer. And odds are it will be Wade, not Delonte's stepson, who will be counted upon in the clutch.

3- LeBuffoon's "cred" is hanging by a thread. He has already quit on the best regular season team in the NBA. *IF *the Heat, say, lose to the Lakers in the NBA Finals, his "legacy" will forever be tainted. 
That's how dangerous his situation is. It's win now or lose plenty for him.

4- There's much more, but i'll keep you guys holding for now...


----------



## PauloCatarino

futuristxen said:


> He is a complete lock down defender who defends 4 sometimes 5 positions. If you need a stop or a big play at the end of a game he's the best one on one defender to have.


Sorry, future, you know i loves ya, but you make me wanna vomit with this kind of teenager-star-struked posts...


----------



## Sir Patchwork

PauloCatarino said:


> Then you should just get away from "GOAT" and "Legacy" discussions.
> Better yet, from threada like this very own, wich from the title one would conclude that there would be no "basketball ability"-centered discussion.
> Just a thought.


Or how about when I talk about who the greatest basketball player of all-time is, I'll just talk about who is the greatest basketball player of all-time. I'll leave the loyalty/morality/church attendance stuff to someone else. 

Legacy is in the eye of the beholder. Kobe is an adulterer who raped a girl, quit on his team, and spent a whole offseason throwing his teammates under the bus. Or to someone else, he is a 5 time champion, MVP, 2 time finals MVP and one of the 10 greatest players ever. So at the end of the day, if a "legacy" can vary this much from person to person based on bias, who cares about it? Let's talk on court facts.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

TheDarkPrince said:


> Lebron isn't even close to being a "lock down" defender. He's average at best, but because he will every once in a while do his "run down block", people start gushing about his D. He's ok, but sure as hell not an elite defender.


He was number 3 in defensive win shares behind only Dwight Howard and Gerald Wallace for the entire season. Pierce had a better series against Artest than he did against LeBron. LeBron is a very lengthy 6'8 who is strong as a power forward but moves like a guard. It's not hard to see why he is a very good defender.


----------



## f22egl

Conceited Prick Thinks Other Conceited Prick Not Conceited Enough










http://www.theonion.com/articles/conceited-prick-thinks-other-conceited-prick-not-c,17774/


----------



## jokeaward

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's not hard to see why he is a very good defender.


Harder than hatin. 

The truth is Lebron is going from one swing state to another, to campaign for his candidates. For 2016 he might go to the Wizards and live in VA or buy a team and move it to St. Louis.


----------



## Jakain

f22egl said:


> Conceited Prick Thinks Other Conceited Prick Not Conceited Enough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theonion.com/articles/conceited-prick-thinks-other-conceited-prick-not-c,17774/


:laugh:


----------



## Nevus

:laugh: It sounds kind of silly when The Onion puts it like that.


----------



## Wilmatic2

hahahahahahaha at the Onion. Lebron is 25 years old, just let him live his life the way he chooses.


----------



## Ben

> People still are tryin' to put LeBron down and, yes, I'm talkin' bout my generation.
> 
> Or, rather, the NBA icons of my generation. The ones who put the NBA back on live television. The ones featured in the star-focused marketing strategy that, long-term, paved the way for LeBron James' decision, and the ensuing fuss over it. The old guys who worked so hard and now have it easy.
> 
> Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson recently joined Charles Barkley in shaking their heads about James abdicating his throne in Cleveland to join Dwyane Wade in Wade's South Florida kingdom. ``Nope, wouldn't have done it back in our day,'' they all said. ``We wanted to beat each other,'' each said, an implied questioning of James' competitiveness and leadership skills.
> 
> `THERE'S NO WAY'
> 
> Easy for them to say from the rich, emeritus side of town.
> 
> To be fair, none did a verbal Kermit Washington on James.
> 
> ``We didn't think about it 'cause that's not what we were about,'' Johnson said, according to Bloomberg News. ``From college, I was trying to figure out how to beat Larry Bird.''
> 
> ``There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry [Bird], called up Magic [Johnson] and said, `Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,' '' Jordan said in an NBC-aired interview. ``But that's . . . things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys.''
> 
> Things are different.
> 
> This twists the standard setup. Toughness points always go to The Old Days. That's when the world -- parents, teachers, the law -- meant business, by gosh. Coaches, too, although sports wasn't so much about the money in The Old Days, whenever they were.
> 
> (A sign you qualify for a midlife crisis: you hear someone say, ``It wasn't so much about the money then'' about an era during which you remember people saying, ``It's all about the money now.'')
> 
> Yet, this isn't necessarily the case here. Look at where they all were after seven years in the NBA.


*More..*


----------



## f22egl

^^ That article isn't changing anyone's minds.


----------



## Ben

I wasn't trying to change minds. I was just posting up the article.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Sir Patchwork said:


> Or how about when I talk about who the greatest basketball player of all-time is, I'll just talk about who is the greatest basketball player of all-time. I'll leave the loyalty/morality/church attendance stuff to someone else.
> 
> Legacy is in the eye of the beholder. Kobe is an adulterer who raped a girl, quit on his team, and spent a whole offseason throwing his teammates under the bus. Or to someone else, he is a 5 time champion, MVP, 2 time finals MVP and one of the 10 greatest players ever. So at the end of the day, if a "legacy" can vary this much from person to person based on bias, who cares about it? *Let's talk on court facts.*


Oh, it's the "on court facts" i'm counting on, Patches. to get LeQuitter out of teh GOAT equation.
But if you are naive enough to pretend that LeTraitor leaving Cleveland to join Wade and Bosh doesn't hurt his status, then, by all means, fo ahead...


----------



## jokeaward

> ``We didn't think about it 'cause that's not what we were about,'' Johnson said, according to Bloomberg News. ``From college, I was trying to figure out how to beat Larry Bird.''


Name one top 20 player signing as a free agent with a different team in the 1980s. So it was probably so different you didn't have to put any though into where you would be playing, just how. 

Two, when did the Bulls really beat Larry Bird, anyway? The Celtics made the Finals from 1983 to 1987, but by 1988-89, the Celtics were 42-40 when Bird only played 6 games. The Pistons took over. It wasn't until 90-91 that the Bulls beat the Pistons.

Is MJ saying that Lebron would rethink his game and go into a 30-8-8 mode like Jordan in 1988-89? He just did that, averaging 8.6 APG, 3.3 more than Mo Williams. And in a league with a slower pace.

Or is MJ saying that Lebron is teaming up with a Top 3 player, EACH year rain or shine, who had as many Finals MVPs as seasons without reaching the Finals (Bird in about 1987)? Is Wade that good? Nothing against Wade but isn't he more of a 70-game, range-limited, turnover prone star, cross your fingers for 80+ in the regular season this year?


----------



## Adam

jokeaward said:


> Two, when did the Bulls really beat Larry Bird, anyway? The Celtics made the Finals from 1983 to 1987, but by 1988-89, the Celtics were 42-40 when Bird only played 6 games. The Pistons took over. It wasn't until 90-91 that the Bulls beat the Pistons.


He's stealing Isiah Thomas's speech. Isiah has a whole speech that he gives in interviews and talks and it's about how he is the only man who can claim that he beat Magic, MJ, and Bird, he could have gone to another team but he wanted to make Detroit relevant, and he didn't want to play for Boston or L.A. because he wanted to beat those guys and he did.

I know these guys have heard Isiah say this because he says it all the time and it really is great stuff. Isiah is a great talker if anything and his accomplishments really are that impressive.

Barkley is kind of an idiot so he's just parroting stuff he has heard before (from Isiah) and MJ is piggybacking off him. These guys are truly an old boys club of very unscrupulous characters who are feeding a brand of thinking that benefits them.


----------



## Adam

Also, I can distinctly remember a story Barkley once told on Inside the NBA. As he told the story, the Sixers called him up and told him he had been traded and he started celebrating all night drinking. The deal fell through but I think that it was to the Lakers and I think as he told it he was so bummed out when it didn't happen. Wish there were transcripts somewhere but I think that I remember it being LA.


----------



## 29380

Adam said:


> Also, I can distinctly remember a story Barkley once told on Inside the NBA. As he told the story, the Sixers called him up and told him he had been traded and he started celebrating all night drinking. The deal fell through but I think that it was to the Lakers and I think as he told it he was so bummed out when it didn't happen. Wish there were transcripts somewhere but I think that I remember it being LA.


Yeah it was a trade to the Lakers in 92 for James Worth and Elden Campbell but the Sixers backed out before the trade deadline.


----------



## seifer0406

To be fair MJ only said that he *wanted* to beat those guys, whether or not he was successful is another story.

Just to beat the dead horse one more time, Lebron wasn't trying to beat Wade and Bosh. Theres no reason to go any deeper to break down what MJ is saying, the message is clear. "Lebron is making things too easy for himself and his accomplishments shouldn't be worth as much as my own." It has nothing to do with joining other great players and it has nothing to do with betraying a city.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

PauloCatarino said:


> Oh, it's the "on court facts" i'm counting on, Patches. to get LeQuitter out of teh GOAT equation.
> But if you are naive enough to pretend that LeTraitor leaving Cleveland to join Wade and Bosh doesn't hurt his status, then, by all means, fo ahead...


It only hurts his status to people who have irrelevant values. Again, I'll deal with the stuff he does on the court and make my opinion that way. If you want to use off the court stuff in your criteria, by all means. I just don't value your criteria. Everybody has an opinion. 

It's funny, because I was making all of these same arguments for Kobe Bryant in 2006 when people were holding Steve Nash above him. It's funny what playing on a stacked team can do for you. LeBron will dominate with the Heat, they'll win a title or a few, and he'll be right back in people's good graces. Just like Kobe.


----------



## E.H. Munro

We may need to start the Paulo suicide watch early this year.


----------



## jokeaward

Adam said:


> I know these guys have heard Isiah say this because he says it all the time and it really is great stuff. Isiah is a great talker if anything and his team accomplishments really are that impressive.


Yeah it's an old boys club. The writers for Havlicek were probably skeptical of Bird being equal.

I like how Russell is, same franchise bias, yes, but essentially became Godfather for Garnett; I don't see him getting into this for some Miami, Cleveland, New York player.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Sir Patchwork said:


> It only hurts his status to people who have irrelevant values. Again, I'll deal with the stuff he does on the court and make my opinion that way. If you want to use off the court stuff in your criteria, by all means. *I just don't value your criteria*. Everybody has an opinion.


What criteria is that?
And what "irrelevant values" are those?

What i am saying is that, when judging All-time greats, "on-court production" is not the be-all, end-all criteira. Another (probably more subjective) considerations are taken into account. And NOT the off-court, off-sport things you pointed out earlier.

Will it be counted AGAINS LeFraud's greatness that he wuitted on the Cavs because he wanted to win the easy way? Yes.
Will it be counted AGAINST LeBufoon that he purposedly joined a team with another Top-5 player and an arguable Top-10 player to try and win it the easy way? You betcha.
That's all i'm saying. 



> It's funny, because I was making all of these same arguments for Kobe Bryant in 2006 when people were holding Steve Nash above him. It's funny what playing on a stacked team can do for you. LeBron will dominate with the Heat, they'll win a title or a few, and he'll be right back in people's good graces. Just like Kobe.


It IS funny, because you are comparing a dude that played with absolute garbage and still stuck it out till he won back-to-back championships (again!) to a dude leaving the team with the best record in the NBA 2 straight years...

I'll put it even more clearer:
Magic Johnson is my favourite player of all-time, and the guy responsable for making me love the game. I have Buck #2 on my personal All-Time list. But i can guarantee you that, had Buck left the Lakers after Kareem and Coop retiring to join, say, an up-and-coming Chicago team with a certain MJ on board, because he didn't feel he could win again with the roster the Lakers had left, damn right it would dent my consideration about Magic as a player.


----------



## PauloCatarino

E.H. Munro said:


> We may need to start the Paulo suicide watch early this year.


And whu is that, Munro?

Why do you seem to take solace to the fact that LeQuitter seems to be ready to "take over the league"? 

You did it before, remember? After your one-and-out championship run winning against an injured Laker squad, you proclaimed that Delonte's stepson's Cavs will tear up the league for like a decade. Guess what? You were wrong. And i told you so at the time.

Now you're imagining the Heat doing the same, right? Well, you will be wrong again.

The Lakers (barring injuries) will three-peat. there, i've said it.

And all thee worshippers of false idols will repent!


----------



## Nevus

> Will it be counted AGAINS LeFraud's greatness that he wuitted on the Cavs because he wanted to win the easy way? Yes.


I stopped reading right there. There's no easy way" to win. It's never easy, and if you think this, then you aren't giving the rest of the NBA enough credit. Every team is going to try even harder to beat this Heat team and anything is possible.

Basketball is a team game, you have to win each game, etc., etc. There's no easy-mode.

Has any superstar player in history ever purposefully put himself in a worse situation than he needed to be in just so that he could prove some egoistic point? Kobe, when he wanted Shaq traded?

I don't think anybody that values winning over his own ego would do that.


----------



## E.H. Munro

PauloCatarino said:


> You did it before, remember? After your one-and-out championship run winning against an injured Laker squad, you proclaimed that Delonte's stepson's Cavs will tear up the league for like a decade. Guess what? You were wrong. And i told you so at the time.


After a victory over a team without its starting center, most fans are grateful. Not douchey Laker fans though (and we should stipulate that they are just a vocal minority of Laker fandom here, mostly you find them at Lakers Playground), they get even more ignorant and douchier than the Summer Breeze factory. And, if you review my statements, I said the Cavs were one deal away from running away from the rest of the league. Unfortunately for Cleveland fans the team left it to Danny Ferry to make that deal and he successfully destroyed the Cavs for a second time. People in Cleveland should be burning Ferry in effigy.


----------



## PauloCatarino

E.H. Munro said:


> After a victory over a team without its starting center, most fans are grateful. Not douchey Laker fans though (and we should stipulate that they are just a vocal minority of Laker fandom here, mostly you find them at Lakers Playground), they get even more ignorant and douchier than the Summer Breeze factory.


Classy as always, Munro.
And not unexpected, off course.

Oh, btw, when the Posers got theit one-and-out, who was the starting Center for the opposite team? 
I feel that old switcharoo (sp?) coming, baby!



> And, if you review my statements, I said the Cavs were one deal away from running away from the rest of the league. Unfortunately for Cleveland fans the team left it to Danny Ferry to make that deal and he successfully destroyed the Cavs for a second time. People in Cleveland should be burning Ferry in effigy.


Meh. I take your posts with a grain of salt (i read them for amusement purposes only).
All talk.


----------



## E.H. Munro

PauloCatarino said:


> Oh, btw, when the Posers got theit one-and-out, who was the starting Center for the opposite team?
> I feel that old switcharoo (sp?) coming, baby!


The man you regularly call the best post player in the NBA? That guy? The vast difference between these two situations being that there actually was a tangible result that one could point to last year (i.e. Boston couldn't control the defensive glass once Perkins was gone), as opposed to the DLF battle cry "If the Admirussell, Shaqueem Abdul Chamberwalton was there to put up his 40/40 that never would have happened!!!" 

However, if Shaq does sign in Boston they can have him return the favour next year and sit on Fat Andy, though the resulting earthquake from 750lbs of beef hitting the ground could cause an earthquake that would collapse the Staples Center.


----------



## PauloCatarino

E.H. Munro said:


> The man you regularly call the best post player in the NBA? That guy? The vast difference between these two situations being that there actually was a tangible result that one could point to last year (i.e. Boston couldn't control the defensive glass once Perkins was gone), as opposed to the DLF battle cry "If the Admirussell, Shaqueem Abdul Chamberwalton was there to put up his 40/40 that never would have happened!!!"


Let me get this straight: you fail to aknowledge that Andre Bynum wasn't even there in the Fin als, YET you are making excuses AGAIN because Perkins didn't play the last game or whatever?

Come on, dude, you have beem clogging up the board for a couple of years now with your excuses... 
Give it up already.
(And no, the nicknames you keep arranging for players are not fun. Soory. It's getting old) 



> However, if Shaq does sign in Boston they can have him return the favour next year and sit on Fat Andy, though the resulting earthquake from 750lbs of beef hitting the ground could cause an earthquake that would collapse the Staples Center.


I guess you found it somewhat relevant while you were writing it.
I don't.

Give it a rest, already.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

PauloCatarino said:


> What criteria is that?
> And what "irrelevant values" are those?


Uhh, things like loyalty, or how many teams you play on, or which players you play with. Things like that don't matter to me. Jordan could have played with Hakeem, or he could have played with Sam Perkins as his best teammate, he was still the same dominant player. Those kind of factors wouldn't have changed my opinion of him as a basketball player, because those factors didn't change who he was as a basketball player. 



PauloCatarino said:


> Will it be counted AGAINS LeFraud's greatness that he wuitted on the Cavs because he wanted to win the easy way?


What is this easy way crap? If there is a possibility that any team or player can win championships the easy way, why _wouldn't_ they do it? 

Do you think if Orlando offered Dwight Howard for Luke Walton as the principle of a trade, that the Lakers would say _I don't think so, we like to win the hard way_...? Of course not. Don't be foolish. 

Players and teams both will put themselves in the best situation to win titles. You're naive if you think it's easy, but if it is, then who cares? That speaks more to your dominance than anything else. Being so much better than everyone else is a bonus on your legacy, not a strike. 



PauloCatarino said:


> That's all i'm saying.


The fact that you can't say what you're saying without little uncreative hater nicknames (LeBufoon?) shows how objective "what you're saying" really is. I think you'd probably speak more accurately if you just said "I don't like the guy so I do my best to tear him down when I can" and was done with it. 

People like you wanted him to stay in Cleveland because you knew they have completely failed to build a champion around him. They won 66 and 61 with Mo Williams as their 2nd best player, a guy who should be a 6th man on any playoff team. You liked that, because you knew as long as he stayed there, you could continue to hold it against him that he doesn't have titles. 

Now that he is in Miami and titles are a great possibility, you guys are a little shook and need to find something else. LOYALTY! Come on...


----------



## Sir Patchwork

PauloCatarino said:


> The Lakers (barring injuries) will three-peat. there, i've said it.


What's funny is that LeBron took the "easy way" according to you, yet they're still not good enough to win the championship. If LeBron joined a team that isn't even good enough to win a title, how is that the easy way?


----------



## E.H. Munro

PauloCatarino said:


> Let me get this straight: you fail to aknowledge that Andre Bynum wasn't even there in the Fin als


Nooooo, I just answered the question you actually asked. If you have another question, you should try _asking_ that other question. Maybe you can tell us what tangible difference was involved? Rather than your usual "If the Admirussell, Shaqeem Abdul Chamberwalton was there LA would have won every game by 100 points!!!!" nonsense. Two years later we'll still waiting.


----------



## seifer0406

Sir Patchwork said:


> What's funny is that LeBron took the "easy way" according to you, yet they're still not good enough to win the championship. If LeBron joined a team that isn't even good enough to win a title, how is that the easy way?


It's only the easy way if he wins, dummy.


----------



## E.H. Munro

seifer0406 said:


> It's only the easy way if he wins, dummy.


Right, because he's coattail riding like that loser, Magic Johnson, rode Kareem & Worthy's coattails.


----------



## afobisme

well magic didn't choose to be drafted at #1 by the lakers. the lakers chose to draft him. another thing is that kareem was already 33ish by the time magic came. lebron, wade, and bosh are all are in their primes while kareem was in the waning years of his career. i'm not sure how good kareem was (was he a top 5 in the league at 33?), but i don't think that lakers team had any of the other top 10 players in the league.

i don't really think lebron choosing the easy way out is up for debate; he DID choose the easy way out. but you can't really hate him for that. i just hate him because he's got such a huge ego.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

afobisme said:


> well magic didn't choose to be drafted at #1 by the lakers. the lakers chose to draft him. another thing is that kareem was already 33ish by the time magic came. lebron, wade, and bosh are all are in their primes while kareem was in the waning years of his career.


If he was more competitive he would have asked to be traded to a team that needed his help.


----------



## afobisme

Sir Patchwork said:


> If he was more competitive he would have asked to be traded to a team that needed his help.


i guess jordan should have asked to be traded to a team that really need his help too? everyone else for that matter. i think that logic doesn't work, since magic was very loyal to the lakers franchise. he hated boston for a reason.

oh and also, kareem was never a nemesis of magic's. he was about 10+ years older and played a different position. lebron plays a very similar game to wade's.

the only other example that i can think of that's similar to lebron joining wade (and the heat) is kobe joining lebron or kobe joining with wade (because those are the top 3 players in the league, and they play the wing.. hence they would want to beat each other even more).


----------



## E.H. Munro

afobisme said:


> well magic didn't choose to be drafted at #1 by the lakers.


Since I apparently haven't said this enough, Magic is my favourite all time player. See all the various GOAT discussions, you'll always see me putting him at the top. My point is a much simpler one. No one remembers the Showtime Lakers as being Kareem or Worthy's squads, despite the fact that they were the guys that scored the most points during that run. We all remember it as Magic's team because he was the ringmaster of the greatest show on earth. Similarly speaking, if LeBron becomes the 21st century Magic, no one is going to remember the Heat as anyone else's team (aside from the Paulo's of this world).



afobisme said:


> i don't really think lebron choosing the easy way out is up for debate; he DID choose the easy way out. but you can't really hate him for that. i just hate him because he's got such a huge ego.


Wouldn't the easy way out have been choosing the Lakers or Magic? I mean no one would beat either of those squads, ever, if he were directing the show.


----------



## Blue

^He probaly wouldve if they had the capspace. :whoknows:


----------



## afobisme

E.H. Munro said:


> Since I apparently haven't said this enough, Magic is my favourite all time player. See all the various GOAT discussions, you'll always see me putting him at the top. My point is a much simpler one. No one remembers the Showtime Lakers as being Kareem or Worthy's squads, despite the fact that they were the guys that scored the most points during that run. We all remember it as Magic's team because he was the ringmaster of the greatest show on earth. Similarly speaking, if LeBron becomes the 21st century Magic, no one is going to remember the Heat as anyone else's team (aside from the Paulo's of this world).
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't the easy way out have been choosing the Lakers or Magic? I mean no one would beat either of those squads, ever, if he were directing the show.


don't know what you liking magic and thinking he's one of the GOATs has anything to do with anything. and as i said before, magic's game is not similar to that of james worthy's or kareem's. they don't essentially play the same style of basketball; magic was the catalyst. 

so now are you comparing lebron to magic? because they are neither the same nor similar players. your "if" hypothetical is just that. lebron + wade is nothing like magic + worthy + kareem, because magic's talents complemented his teammates' game while lebron's game is pretty much what wade brings... so i don't think miami is going to be any more "lebron's team" than it is "wade's team."

that's the whole thing. lebron is a legitimate franchise player, a #1 guy.. and so is wade. kareem or worthy were NOT legitimate #1's, which is why it was magic's team.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

afobisme said:


> i guess jordan should have asked to be traded to a team that really need his help too? everyone else for that matter. i think that logic doesn't work, since magic was very loyal to the lakers franchise. he hated boston for a reason.


It's funny because if a guy is loyal to a bad franchise and loses every year, he isn't competitive enough. If he leaves that franchise to better his situation (LeBron), he isn't competitive or loyal because he is "taking the easy way" and also being disloyal. Some people just need to learn to think better. Not every superstar is put into the same situation. If LeBron was drafted onto the Lakers team that Magic was, he'd probably have 3 titles by now and of course he'd be loyal to a great franchise he is winning titles with. 



afobisme said:


> oh and also, kareem was never a nemesis of magic's. he was about 10+ years older and played a different position. lebron plays a very similar game to wade's.


Wade was never a nemesis of LeBron. They've never played against each other in the playoffs, and they've probably played as many games together in the olympics as they have against each other in the NBA.


----------



## f22egl

So LeBron's elbow injury was bogus? I thought if LeBron was 100%, the Cavs would have gotten to Eastern Conference finals. Maybe LeBron wasn't injured after all. And who knows what would have happened against the Lakers. I think the Cavs matched up better against the Lakers than the Celtics. Someone like Derek Fisher could not expose Mo Williams defensive flaws like Rajon Rondo. 

Lebron wants to be a sidekick like Magic Johnson was early in his career. Good for him, but it's not like he wasn't in a position to bring home the championship in Cleveland even this past season. Instead of improving his own game (ie his jumper or post game), LeBron is taking his talents to South Beach. He is taking the easiest way/most talent to help him bring home a championship. 

If LeBron had decided to stay in Cleveland, the Cavs could have had added a MLE piece or two over the next few years. LeBron hurt his own cause for winning a championship in Cleveland by not signing an extension to stay because free agents like Ron Artest or Trevor Ariza could not play with him. This is more about LeBron wanting to leave Cleveland more than anything. He's grown up his whole life in Ohio and just wanted to get out.


----------



## afobisme

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's funny because if a guy is loyal to a bad franchise and loses every year, he isn't competitive enough. If he leaves that franchise to better his situation (LeBron), he isn't competitive or loyal because he is "taking the easy way" and also being disloyal. Some people just need to learn to think better. Not every superstar is put into the same situation. If LeBron was drafted onto the Lakers team that Magic was, he'd probably have 3 titles by now and of course he'd be loyal to a great franchise he is winning titles with.
> 
> 
> 
> Wade was never a nemesis of LeBron. They've never played against each other in the playoffs, and they've probably played as many games together in the olympics as they have against each other in the NBA.


like i already said in this thread, i don't have a problem with lebron going to miami. it's just that he's taking he easy way out. that's the only way to look at it. i don't like lebron for different reasons (he's an egomaniac).

and yes i know, wade was never a nemesis of lebron.. and that was my point, he should be (if you watched bball in the 80's and 90's) but he just isn't. wade and lebron are arguably the top 2 players in the league. in the 80's and 90's, guys like magic and bird (top 2 arguably) did NOT want to play with each other. that is the part where lebron is taking the easy way out.

if you're the best, you don't want to play with other guys who are challenging you for that title. you want to beat them, only to prove it even more. that's the 80's, 90's, and kobe mentality.


----------



## Blue

There's a big difference between LA & Cleveland. People aren't mad that he left Cleveland, that's understandable, it's just that he went to most absolutely stacked set-up available to him. There were other teams set up, like Chicago or NY, where he could've been the centerpiece and still been competitve. A Rose/Bron/Boozer/Noah core for example, could beat a Wade/Beasley/Bosh core but would still be competitive. But he didn't want the challenge(risk) of getting through *battles* against Wade/Bosh AND Dwight every year. So he joins up with Wade/Bosh and forms a superteam instead of joining Amare or Rose. He pushed the Easy Button. Guaranteed rings.


----------



## kflo

afobisme said:


> that's the whole thing. lebron is a legitimate franchise player, a #1 guy.. and so is wade. kareem or worthy were NOT legitimate #1's, which is why it was magic's team.


you're aware kareem was mvp magic's rookie year, no? 

the lakers became "magic's team" in 1987. before then, kareem was still the primary option on offense, and still placing top 5 in mvp voting (and '85 finals mvp). magic was the bigger star, and the better player at that point, but it wasn't just magic's team. '87 was when things really changed. magic's 8th year.


----------



## seifer0406

Blue Magic said:


> There's a big difference between LA & Cleveland. People aren't mad that he left Cleveland, that's understandable, it's just that he went to most absolutely stacked set-up available to him. There were other teams set up, like Chicago or NY, where he could've been the centerpiece and still been competitve. A Rose/Bron/Boozer/Noah core for example, could beat a Wade/Beasley/Bosh core but would still be competitive. But he didn't want the challenge(risk) of getting through *battles* against Wade/Bosh AND Dwight every year. So he joins up with Wade/Bosh and forms a superteam instead of joining Amare or Rose. He pushed the Easy Button. Guaranteed rings.


My argument is still that Lebron declared way before the offseason (Perhaps as much as a year or 2 before) that he would go to the team that gives him the best chance to win a championship. Why the hell would he go to the 2nd or 3rd best chance just to make things more difficult?

The fact is Lebron had 30 teams that he could go if he so chooses to. You actually think if Lebron declares that he wants to play for Orlando Orlando couldn't have figured something out? If Lebron is willing to go as far as taking a paycut, there is no limit to what he could've done. For all I know he could've gone to the Lakers or Magic or Celtics, and that would really be taking the "Can't beat them, join them" approach.


----------



## E.H. Munro

afobisme said:


> so now are you comparing lebron to magic? because they are neither the same nor similar players. your "if" hypothetical is just that. lebron + wade is nothing like magic + worthy + kareem, because magic's talents complemented his teammates' game while lebron's game is pretty much what wade brings... so i don't think miami is going to be any more "lebron's team" than it is "wade's team."


James is a much better playmaker than Wade, always has been. Are you really of the mind that Mario Chalmers is going to be the guy directing the show? He won't be. His job is going to be defense and hitting open threes. James is going to be the primary playmaker when he's on the floor, Wade and Bosh are going to be his finishers. Much like Magic directed the Lakers' offense back in the day.



afobisme said:


> that's the whole thing. lebron is a legitimate franchise player, a #1 guy.. and so is wade. kareem or worthy were NOT legitimate #1's, which is why it was magic's team.


I'll forgive your youth. Kareem was a great great offensive player, and was until near the very end of his career. But it was Magic's team because he directed the offense. That was the public perception then, it's the public perception now, it was the reality then. I know that Jordan ****ed up everyones perceptions on this subject, but way back in the day one could be the guy running the show without being the primary scorer.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

afobisme said:


> like i already said in this thread, i don't have a problem with lebron going to miami. it's just that he's taking he easy way out. that's the only way to look at it. i don't like lebron for different reasons (he's an egomaniac).


I expect all of you who say LeBron is taking the easy way out to be picking Miami to win the championship next season, or else that "easy way" stuff just doesn't fly. 



afobisme said:


> and yes i know, wade was never a nemesis of lebron.. and that was my point, he should be (if you watched bball in the 80's and 90's) but he just isn't. wade and lebron are arguably the top 2 players in the league. in the 80's and 90's, guys like magic and bird (top 2 arguably) did NOT want to play with each other. that is the part where lebron is taking the easy way out.


What is LeBron taking the easy way out of again? Magic and Bird can say they didn't want to play with each other, but it's because they were on stacked powerhouse teams. If they were both drafted to terrible teams, and they were good friends, after a few years their bitterness would most likely lead to them wanting to play together. They weren't drafted into the same situation, so you can't judge them the same way. That's like judging a rich man and poor man's generousity based on how much they donate to charity. 



afobisme said:


> if you're the best, you don't want to play with other guys who are challenging you for that title. you want to beat them, only to prove it even more. that's the 80's, 90's, and kobe mentality.


Or maybe LeBron just isn't insecure enough that he has to prove he is better than Wade. Maybe he just doesn't care about individual rivalries? Maybe he just wants to win championships? 

BTW, nobody challenges LeBron for best player in the league title, so it's all moot anyways. It's overwhelming majority at this point (95%+).


----------



## Blue

seifer0406 said:


> My argument is still that Lebron declared way before the offseason (Perhaps as much as a year or 2 before) that he would go to the team that gives him the best chance to win a championship. Why the hell would he go to the 2nd or 3rd best chance just to make things more difficult?
> 
> The fact is Lebron had 30 teams that he could go if he so chooses to. You actually think if Lebron declares that he wants to play for Orlando Orlando couldn't have figured something out? If Lebron is willing to go as far as taking a paycut, there is no limit to what he could've done. For all I know he could've gone to the Lakers or Magic or Celtics, and that would really be taking the "Can't beat them, join them" approach.


No, because those teams had no way of signing him outright. Cleveland even publicly stated they had NO intentions of doing a S&T. Only reason they did it with Miami is cuz at that point it would be dumb to let him go for free, when you could get 2 1st round picks and TPE out of it... With Orlando, Boston, LA, etc., they would never work a S&T with a team that couldn't sign him outright.


----------



## seifer0406

Blue Magic said:


> No, because those teams had no way of signing him outright. Cleveland would never deal him to Orlando, and they even publicly stated they had NO intentions of doing a S&T. Only reason they did it with Miami is cuz it would be dumb to let him go for free, when you could get 2 1st round picks... With Orlando, Boston, LA, etc., they never work a S&T with a team that couldn't sign him outright.


If Lebron announces that he would like to go to Orlando, Cleveland would do a sign&trade if Orlando is willing to pony up assets because the alternative for the Cavs is having Lebron going elsewhere where the Cavs might not get as good of a package in return. The key thing here is that Lebron need to announce his intentions to leave the Cleveland and not wait until the last second.

Just think about it, if say the Lakers offer Bynum, 2 first rounders for Lebron and Lebron is willing to go to LA, you don't think Cleveland would make that deal knowing that the alternative is Lebron going to Miami where they get close to nothing? Lebron has all the leverage here especially when he is willing to take less than the max in dollars and years. If he makes up his mind, he can force Cleveland into doing whatever he wants them to do because he can *always* present a situation where Cleveland is better off dealing him than not dealing him.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Sir Patchwork said:


> Uhh, things like loyalty, or how many teams you play on, or which players you play with. Things like that don't matter to me. Jordan could have played with Hakeem, or he could have played with Sam Perkins as his best teammate, he was still the same dominant player. Those kind of factors wouldn't have changed my opinion of him as a basketball player, because those factors didn't change who he was as a basketball player.


Who the hell is talking about "loyalty" as a criteria for judging a player's greatness?
I see you are trying to paint me (and probably others) as a "I hate the guy so he should have stayed in Cleveland, losing" kind of guy.
Not true at all.

First of all, i predicted the (then) Crabs to win it last last year. Go check the thread if you must. And that's because i thought the (then) Crabs were putting up an adequate roster around LeStats.

And yes, had he stayed in Cleveland, i believe it waould be a matter of time till LeStats won a championship.

Second, i do hate the guy. He is a dumass. 



> What is this easy way crap? If there is a possibility that any team or player can win championships the easy way, why _wouldn't_ they do it?


The "easy way out" is, 2 months after saying he wouldn't rest till he got the city of Cleveland a championship, he bolts to a team with TWO Top-10 players. 
Like a previous poster said (and much better than me), he didn't leave to a team with a mere "more adequate" roster (like, say, Chicago). 
3 months after proclaiming his desire to bring the city of Cleveland a championship.
What happened between then and now? A loss in the playoffs. HAving HCA.
Yes, that's "the easy way out" right here.



> Do you think if Orlando offered Dwight Howard for Luke Walton as the principle of a trade, that the Lakers would say _I don't think so, we like to win the hard way_...? Of course not. Don't be foolish.


lol. Who's been foolish now? 



> Players and teams both will put themselves in the best situation to win titles. You're naive if you think it's easy, but if it is, then who cares? That speaks more to your dominance than anything else. *Being so much better than everyone else is a bonus on your legacy, not a strike*.


True. If you are talking about a player. About a team, it's arguable.



> The fact that you can't say what you're saying without little uncreative hater nicknames (LeBufoon?) shows how objective "what you're saying" really is. I think you'd probably speak more accurately if you just said "I don't like the guy so I do my best to tear him down when I can" and was done with it.


Like i've said, young grasshopper, you are wrong.
KG is probably the player i mos loathe in the NBA. But when he was in the Wolves, i kept saying he should join forces with a Franchise player, because KG could be a fantastic second-option kind of player. 
Not once did i say/post "rott in Minny, loser!"



> People like you wanted him to stay in Cleveland because you knew they have completely failed to build a champion around him. They won 66 and 61 with Mo Williams as their 2nd best player, a guy who should be a 6th man on any playoff team. You liked that, because you knew as long as he stayed there, you could continue to hold it against him that he doesn't have titles.


The fact that the )then) Crabs won 66 and 61 with Mo as the 2nd best player is a testamente of both Lebron's greatness and that the (then) Crabs were probably an impact player away from winning it all. 



> Now that he is in Miami and titles are a great possibility, you guys are a little shook and need to find something else. LOYALTY! Come on...


Again with the Loyalty crap? Heck, my favourite player of all time, in his youth, demanded to be traded because he felt the coach wasn't using him properly!
Same player i will defend to death he was the second best player of all time to play the game.


----------



## Blue

Have you seen Bynum's contract? He's not the savior. They're better off just letting the salary go, and rebuilding.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Have you seen Bynum's contract? He's not the savior. They're better off just letting the salary go, and rebuilding.


No they weren't. The team name lost all its cache, their ticket prices are about to plummet, and even then they'll be playing in front of empty houses because they're a bad team headed nowhere. Put another way, Fat Andy & two late firsts are better than two late firsts. Much like Minnesota with Jefferson, you're financially better off with something to sell the suckers.


----------



## Blue

Ok sure, but if LeBron had his heart set on LA... And LA didn't have cap to sign him outright... Then why would Cleveland want to accomodate that option for him?


----------



## seifer0406

Blue Magic said:


> Ok sure, but if LeBron had his heart set on LA... And LA didn't have cap to sign him outright... Then why would Cleveland want to accomodate that option for him?


I just told you, Lebron needs to announce that he isn't staying in Cleveland. Once that is known to the public Cleveland will do what is best for the team. I was just using Bynum as an example, I'm just showing you that Cleveland wouldn't do things out of spite if they know that Lebron staying in Cleveland isn't one of the options.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Ok sure, but if LeBron had his heart set on LA... And LA didn't have cap to sign him outright... Then why would Cleveland want to accomodate that option for him?


Because, in this particular thought experiment, LA is offering Fat Andy and two firsts to consummate the deal. As all they're going to be doing with Miami's #1s and the TPE is looking for a salary dump, you may as well grab one that sells.


----------



## seifer0406

I mean you can go on and on about this. If Lebron wanted to join Boston because he couldn't beat them, don't you think Boston would be willing to trade Rondo for him? You don't think Cleveland would rather have Rondo than TPE and picks?

You need to take a closer look at S&T because you clearly don't understand the leverage that teams have. The only leverage is that they can offer the guy *max money and max years*. Once the player decides that he doesn't care about the max the team is basically at their mercy. No team would make a move out of spite. You can always get them to do something when you present an inferior alternative.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

PauloCatarino said:


> Who the hell is talking about "loyalty" as a criteria for judging a player's greatness?


Since most of your post builds on this point, I'll just respond to this. I'm just trying to understand what exactly it is that bothers you and others about him leaving an inferior Cleveland team for a much better Miami team. 

You say the loyalty doesn't matter, so that's out. 

You say he took the easy way out by jetting to a team with two top 10 players, yet they're still not good enough to win a championship according to you, so if the team is not good enough still, I don't understand how that's the easy way out. Anyone saying he took the easy way should be predicting the Heat to demolish teams next season (making it look, you know, easy) or else he clearly didn't take the easy way. He was just trying to put himself in better position to beat a team going for a three-peat next year. 

If your beef is with his statement that he would bring a title to Cleveland, then I can agree that he broke his promise, but again, this falls under the branch of loyalty, morality, etc. It can't be held against him as a basketball player, only as a person. Maybe we can say he is out of the running for greatest basketball _person_ of all-time?


----------



## Blue

seifer0406 said:


> I mean you can go on and on about this. If Lebron wanted to join Boston because he couldn't beat them, don't you think Boston would be willing to trade Rondo for him? * You don't think Cleveland would rather have Rondo than TPE and picks?*


No, I do not actually.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> No, I do not actually.


You're completely wrong. Rondo is the ultimate ESPN Sportscenter Highlight Machine. He's the very definition of a guy that makes plays so fancy that fans irrationally stop caring that their team is losing by 20 points.


----------



## Blue

lol


----------



## PauloCatarino

Sir Patchwork said:


> Since most of your post builds on this point, I'll just respond to this. I'm just trying to understand what exactly it is that bothers you and others about him leaving an inferior Cleveland team for a much better Miami team.
> 
> You say the loyalty doesn't matter, so that's out.


Yup. It's out. 



> You say he took the easy way out by jetting to a team with two top 10 players, yet they're still not good enough to win a championship according to you, so if the team is not good enough still, I don't understand how that's the easy way out. Anyone saying he took the easy way should be predicting the Heat to demolish teams next season (making it look, you know, easy) or else he clearly didn't take the easy way. He was just trying to put himself in better position to beat a team going for a three-peat next year.


Take a hint from the posters who have said that LeLiar had an adequate supporting cast, but it just wasn't used properly.
LeLiar joined the Heat for what? five, six years? Plenty of time to go around. Do you expect that Wade+LeLiar+Bosh joined together for the first time will *automaticly *(sp?) bring a championship to Miami? No considerations regarding how the gel, how they play with the fellow members of the roster? And (barring injuries) probably going against a team that is the back-to-back world champions, with Kobe and Pau in or close at their primes, and a resilient Ronny, and a (hopefully) improved Bynum?
My bet is the Lakers take the next. Then, it's probably the Heat taking over (again, barring injuries).



> If your beef is with his statement that he would bring a title to Cleveland, then I can agree that he broke his promise, but again, this falls under the branch of loyalty, morality, etc. It can't be held against him as a basketball player, only as a person. Maybe we can say he is out of the running for greatest basketball _person_ of all-time?


My beef is that dude is a dumass and a fabricated vending machine. Dude is all talk and no bite. All personal glory and no honour. A buffoon. A pupet.

An eventhough he is (by his own words, carved in his freaking back) the "Chosen One", for the sake of "winning" he steps down that self-imaginary pedestral to join a "stacked" team. Who coincidently has a player almost as good as him.

**** that. I've read numerous times that Kobe couldn't win if he didn't have Pau Gasol (who isn't a Top-10 player in the NBA). LeLiar chose to join a team with ANOTHER Top-5 player AND a player about as good as Pau. Now what? 

I'm tired of all this double-standard, man. All the excuses being put forth. "He is too young". "He has no help". Whatever. (Many) Years have passed and still no glory. But, still, a whole lotta talk.
I don't fault KG's joining Pierce and Allen for a crack of that elusive championship. But i DO fault LeLiar's decision.
It's "The Chosen One"'s own admittance that he can't get it done.


----------



## Nevus

Sir Patchwork said:


> You say he took the easy way out by jetting to a team with two top 10 players, yet they're still not good enough to win a championship according to you, so if the team is not good enough still, I don't understand how that's the easy way out. Anyone saying he took the easy way should be predicting the Heat to demolish teams next season (making it look, you know, easy) or else he clearly didn't take the easy way. He was just trying to put himself in better position to beat a team going for a three-peat next year.


Hats off to you, Sir Patchwork. That is a beautiful piece of logic, almost too good to waste on a sports message board. And hats off to you for continuing to debate with Paulo even though he is clearly basing his posts on irrational hatred.

I'm getting very excited to watch the Heat to break the Bulls' record of 72-10 next season, since apparently they will have it so easy that anything they accomplish will be historically meaningless. They're going to make the rest of the league look like the Washington Generals. I can't wait!

This is going to be a great season!


----------



## futuristxen

PauloCatarino said:


> Pau Gasol (who isn't a Top-10 player in the NBA).


News to me. I think it's debatable between him, Dirk, and Howard for best big in the league. He pretty much dominated Boston in the finals.


----------



## BlackNRed

It's all about championships. Every team, and fan of every team in the league wish they were in the Heat's position for the next 6 years.

Real Talk.

Were Jordan and Pippen not both great players, and legends when all was said and done? What if Jordan put up all his stats but never won anything? How would that impact his legacy? Jordan had help, he didn't win by himself.

This is a team sport people, teams win championships, great teams, not great individuals, great individuals lead great teams.

If you want a great individual legacy go practice an individual sport.


----------



## RapsFan

Jordan did join 2 other all-stars at one point. No one remember Jordan teaming with Wayne Gretzky and Bo Jackson?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

PauloCatarino said:


> My beef is that dude is a dumass and a fabricated vending machine. Dude is all talk and no bite. All personal glory and no honour. A buffoon. A pupet.
> 
> An eventhough he is (by his own words, carved in his freaking back) the "Chosen One", for the sake of "winning" he steps down that self-imaginary pedestral to join a "stacked" team. Who coincidently has a player almost as good as him.


So he is all about personal glory, yet he has no problem joining a team where he'll share some of the spotlight? That doesn't make sense. If he was all about personal glory and didn't care about winning, he would have stayed in Cleveland for more money and continued to dominate individually while his teams come up short. 



PauloCatarino said:


> I'm tired of all this double-standard, man. All the excuses being put forth. "He is too young". "He has no help". Whatever. (Many) Years have passed and still no glory. But, still, a whole lotta talk.


Let me put it this way...You say people make excuses for LeBron. What is Kobe's excuse? He played worse against Boston than LeBron did, and also played worse against Orlando last year than LeBron did against Orlando. Individual performance is what matters to me, when judging individuals. Team performance is what matters to me, when judging teams. So Kobe's team winning doesn't excuse him playing worse than LeBron the past two years in the playoffs. If LeBron has to be held accountable, so does Kobe. 

Basketball is not a complicated sport. As soon as people learn to stop linking players success/failure with teams success/failure they'll make it a lot easier on themselves. Players are not directly responsible for their teams success.


----------



## Eternal

Sir Patchwork said:


> So he is all about personal glory, yet he has no problem joining a team where he'll share some of the spotlight? That doesn't make sense. If he was all about personal glory and didn't care about winning, he would have stayed in Cleveland for more money and continued to dominate individually while his teams come up short.


No he wouldn't have. He NEEDs rings to be considered successful in his career, and he most likely wasn't going to get a ring in Cleveland anytime soon. He needed to jump ship and go to a stacked team so he could take the easy way out and almost guarantee himself at least a couple of rings before his career is done with.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Eternal said:


> No he wouldn't have. He NEEDs rings to be considered successful in his career, and he most likely wasn't going to get a ring in Cleveland anytime soon. He needed to jump ship and go to a stacked team so he could take the easy way out and almost guarantee himself at least a couple of rings before his career is done with.


So if he wasn't going to win in Cleveland, you're saying he should have went to a team better than Cleveland, but not quite as good as Miami? Any other stipulations? It's absurd that you can't choose the team that gives you the best chance to win. You have to choose the 2nd or 3rd best option just so that it's not too easy. Come on, seriously?


----------



## BeeGee

People that believe that "this is about sacrifice" crap are misled. Bron's tenure in Cleveland was more about sacrifice, if anything. Miami is about getting his. He got tired of waiting on the reward of Momma's good home stovetop cookin', so he opted for a microwave championship instead. Miami is about Lebron getting the title that the league and fans have convinced him that he's entitled to. So he puts the dish in the microwave and sets the time for 1 year on high power...

...Hope that sh^t doesn't explode while it's spinning in there.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

BeeGee said:


> People that believe that "this is about sacrifice" crap are misled. Bron's tenure in Cleveland was more about sacrifice, if anything. Miami is about getting his. He got tired of waiting on the reward of Momma's good home stovetop cookin', so he opted for a microwave championship instead. Miami is about Lebron getting the title that the league and fans have convinced him that he's entitled to. So he puts the dish in the microwave and sets the time for 1 year on high power...
> 
> ...Hope that sh^t doesn't explode while it's spinning in there.


I think you should use metaphors in every post. I enjoy reading them.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Sir Patchwork said:


> *So he is all about personal glory*, yet he has no problem joining a team where he'll share some of the spotlight? That doesn't make sense.


Why are you even questioning this, Patches? "The Decision" TV debacle is proof enough of it.
LeLiar wants rings (a BIG part of the "glory"). And joining the Heat he is trying to get them quick. We'll see what he does in the duration of his contract with the Heat (and after) IF the HEat are winning but Wade is closing the games (and championships).



> If he was all about personal glory and didn't care about winning, he would have stayed in Cleveland for more money and continued to dominate individually *while his teams come up short*.


CAn you guarantee had Lebron decided a month or so ago he would stay in Cleveland, the team wouldn't be able to get an impact player to join and help them getting over the top?
They were close, as things were. No guarantees the Cavs wouldn't improve their roster (with Lebron there they would probably be of some atraction to players)



> Let me put it this way...You say people make excuses for LeBron. What is Kobe's excuse? He played worse against Boston than LeBron did, and also played worse against Orlando last year than LeBron did against Orlando. Individual performance is what matters to me, when judging individuals. Team performance is what matters to me, when judging teams. So Kobe's team winning doesn't excuse him playing worse than LeBron the past two years in the playoffs. If LeBron has to be held accountable, so does Kobe.


Right on all counts.
Kobe playing worse then LeLiar is easily explainable: Fames is the better player. ANd the Lakers' winning while Kobe's playing below his standards damn right doesn't excuse it. 



> Basketball is not a complicated sport. As soon as people learn to stop linking players success/failure with teams success/failure they'll make it a lot easier on themselves. *Players are not directly responsible for their teams success.*


Interisting thought, Patches. Glad to see you are not one of the "Lebron had no help" fanboys over here.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

PauloCatarino said:


> Why are you even questioning this, Patches? "The Decision" TV debacle is proof enough of it.
> LeLiar wants rings (a BIG part of the "glory"). And joining the Heat he is trying to get them quick. We'll see what he does in the duration of his contract with the Heat (and after) IF the HEat are winning but Wade is closing the games (and championships).


I have no doubt that LeBron is all about his brand, but I think that's off the court business. On the court, he has proven time and time again that he is about making the right basketball play, whether it's him making the shot or not. 



PauloCatarino said:


> CAn you guarantee had Lebron decided a month or so ago he would stay in Cleveland, the team wouldn't be able to get an impact player to join and help them getting over the top?


I can't guarantee the Cavs wouldn't have acquired another impact player, but I do know that on July 8th, the chances of LeBron playing with another great talent was either 100% if he signed with Miami, or less than 50% if he signed with Cleveland (given their ability to attract players and cap flexibility).

Why would LeBron risk staying with Cleveland for a _chance_ at getting a good player, when playing with talent in Miami was 100%?

It's like betting on the underdog and only getting half the payout vs. betting on the sure thing (sure thing is playing with great players) and getting twice the pay out. It's a no-brainer.


----------



## Nevus

This is absurd. 

So, taking a lesser role on a better team because you want to win makes you a self-promoter, but purposefully choosing a lesser situation so that you can try to inflate your own personal legacy would not make you a self-promoter?

Perhaps LeBron can pull a Kobe and salvage his legacy after the Heat win a couple titles by demanding that Wade be traded so he can lead the Heat to another title on his own.


----------



## BeeGee

Sir Patchwork said:


> I think you should use metaphors in every post. I enjoy reading them.


Thanks, man.


----------



## 77AJ

The reason LeBron will never be considered the GOAT is because he went to a team with an already great superstar who already had won a championship and Finals MVP.

Also when the Miami heat announce the starting line ups, you can bet your backside the Heat will announce Dwyane Wade last. As every home announcement team in the NBA announces their best player last when introducing the starting line up. 

Could you imagine LA announcing Pau Gasol last over Kobe Bryant ? Of course not. This is D Wades team. And D Wade, LeBron James, and Chris Bosh are going to win a lot of championships, but make no mistake about it, the Miami Heat are Dwyane Wades baby.


----------



## carlos710

23AJ said:


> The reason LeBron will never be considered the GOAT is because he went to a team with an already great superstar who already had won a championship and Finals MVP.


Sounds like if you were talking about Kareem to me.



23AJ said:


> Also when the Miami heat announce the starting line ups, you can bet your backside the Heat will announce Dwyane Wade last. As every home announcement team in the NBA announces their best player last when introducing the starting line up.
> 
> Could you imagine LA announcing Pau Gasol last over Kobe Bryant ? Of course not. This is D Wades team. And D Wade, LeBron James, and Chris Bosh are going to win a lot of championships, but make no mistake about it, the Miami Heat are Dwyane Wades baby.


If this was true in the early 80's (and I'm not old enough to know it) I guess Kareem's name was the last mentioned in the presentations, and I'm pretty sure the lakers were viewed as kareem's team (atleast on magic's first seasons)


----------



## 77AJ

the actual interview of jordan. seems respectful and his honest opinion. Imagine this is the kind of interview people go up in arms over today...


----------



## 77AJ

carlos710 said:


> Sounds like if you were talking about Kareem to me.
> 
> 
> 
> If this was true in the early 80's (and I'm not old enough to know it) I guess Kareem's name was the last mentioned in the presentations, and I'm pretty sure the lakers were viewed as kareem's team (atleast on magic's first seasons)




Kareem was dubbed with the name The Cap for a reason dude. Go read a book before trying to argue with me, all you did was solidify the original point that was already made by me.


----------



## IbizaXL

BeeGee said:


> So he puts the dish in the microwave and sets the time for 1 year on high power...
> 
> ...Hope that sh^t doesn't explode while it's spinning in there.


I dont think it wont. If anything theres a good chance its going to slowly roast for the next 5-6 years.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Nevus said:


> This is absurd.


Just face it dude, LeBron screwed the pooch. I think I'm going to make a list, and keep adding to it. 

*List of reasons LeBron will never be the GOAT:* 
1. He will win titles too easily
2. Jordan said so
3. His name won't be last during opening presentations
4. He dances
5. He left the team he was drafted to

Feel free to add on. I *only* want *legitimate* reasons. This list is purely for reasons that have substantial rationale to back them up.


----------



## kflo

23AJ said:


> The reason LeBron will never be considered the GOAT is because he went to a team with an already great superstar who already had won a championship and Finals MVP.
> 
> Also when the Miami heat announce the starting line ups, you can bet your backside the Heat will announce Dwyane Wade last. As every home announcement team in the NBA announces their best player last when introducing the starting line up.
> 
> Could you imagine LA announcing Pau Gasol last over Kobe Bryant ? Of course not. This is D Wades team. And D Wade, LeBron James, and Chris Bosh are going to win a lot of championships, but make no mistake about it, the Miami Heat are Dwyane Wades baby.


again, no mention of what actually happens on the court. d wade's team forever. because he was there first! 

this team will be almost entirely new.


----------



## E.H. Munro

23AJ said:


> The reason LeBron will never be considered the GOAT is because he went to a team with an already great superstar who already had won a championship and Finals MVP.


You should prepare yourself for a lifetime of disappointment. James will absolutely be in the GOAT conversation, no 6'4" James Worthy is locking him out.


----------



## Ron

IbizaXL said:


> I dont think it wont. If anything theres a good chance its going to slowly roast for the next 5-6 years.


Slowly roast for the next 5-6 years?

Man, that meat will be inedible!


----------



## Ron

23AJ said:


> the actual interview of jordan. seems respectful and his honest opinion. Imagine this is the kind of interview people go up in arms over today...


Yep, it was overblown, that's for sure.

Welcome to the Internet Age of 2010.


----------



## f22egl

MJ just may be strongly against it because he's an owner of the Bobcats. Imagine if you owned a franchise and the super friends came to your division.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Sir Patchwork said:


> Feel free to add on. I *only* want *legitimate* reasons. This list is purely for reasons that have substantial rationale to back them up.


*List of reasons LeBron will never be the GOAT:* 
1. He will win titles too easily
2. Jordan said so
3. His name won't be last during opening presentations
4. He dances
5. He left the team he was drafted to
6. *ESPN pulled a badly written article about a party he threw in Las Vegas*
7. *Dwyane Wade has led the Heat to a nearly .500 record since Shaq's untimely death*
8. *If you can't win a title with Shaq's re-animated corpse as a sidekick you're just no damned good... unless you're Dwyane Wade.*


----------



## Sir Patchwork

> *List of reasons LeBron will never be the GOAT:*
> 1. He will win titles too easily, but he probably won't win any
> 2. Jordan said so
> 3. His name won't be last during opening presentations
> 4. He dances
> 5. He left the team he was drafted to
> 6. ESPN pulled a badly written article about a party he threw in Las Vegas
> 7. Dwyane Wade has led the Heat to a nearly .500 record since Shaq's untimely death
> 8. If you can't win a title with Shaq's re-animated corpse as a sidekick you're just no damned good... unless you're Dwyane Wade.
> 9. Delonte West never slept with _Michael Jordan's_ mom.



Updated list, number 1 changed to better explain LeBron's 0.00% chance of becoming GOAT.


----------



## Dre

Jay-Z is mad at him too.


----------



## seifer0406

I heard Randy Brown slept with MJ's mom


----------



## Dre

Why did that just remind me of that "Stacey's mom" bubblegum rock song from like 6 years back


----------



## E.H. Munro

Keepin' the list up to date and adding a little proper formatting

*List of reasons LeBron will never be the GOAT: *

 He will win titles too easily, but he probably won't win any
 Jordan said so
 His name won't be last during opening presentations
 He dances
 He left the team he was drafted to
 ESPN pulled a badly written article about a party he threw in Las Vegas
 Dwyane Wade has led the Heat to a nearly .500 record since Shaq's untimely death
 If you can't win a title with Shaq's re-animated corpse as a sidekick you're just no damned good... unless you're Dwyane Wade
 Jay-Z is mad at him
 Delonte West never slept with Michael Jordan's mom ...
 But Randy Brown might have
 Maverick Carter, man, Maverick Carter
 You can't be the GOAT unless you get in trouble with the law


----------



## kflo

*List of reasons LeBron will never be the GOAT: *

 He will win titles too easily, but he probably won't win any
 Jordan said so
 His name won't be last during opening presentations
 He dances
 He left the team he was drafted to
 ESPN pulled a badly written article about a party he threw in Las Vegas
 Dwyane Wade has led the Heat to a nearly .500 record since Shaq's untimely death
 If you can't win a title with Shaq's re-animated corpse as a sidekick you're just no damned good... unless you're Dwyane Wade
 Jay-Z is mad at him
 Delonte West never slept with Michael Jordan's mom ...
 But Randy Brown might have
 Maverick Carter, man, Maverick Carter
 You can't be the GOAT unless you get in trouble with the law 


jordan had better rookie stats
jordan won a title in college
jordan made pippen a top 50. lebron couldn't make jamario top 50.
jordan's influence and leadership was so great his team was able to win 55 games without him - lets see what the cavs do this year
lebron doesn't have a gambling problem, further demonstrating he's less competitive.
jordan would have won 2 more titles in the 1.8 years he missed. 
jordan won the slam dunk contest
jordan didn't lie


----------



## E.H. Munro

Let's Keep'em coming people...

*List of reasons LeBron will never be the GOAT: *

 He will win titles too easily, but he probably won't win any
 Jordan said so
 His name won't be last during opening presentations
 He dances
 He left the team he was drafted to
 ESPN pulled a badly written article about a party he threw in Las Vegas
 Dwyane Wade has led the Heat to a nearly .500 record since Shaq's untimely death
 If you can't win a title with Shaq's re-animated corpse as a sidekick you're just no damned good... unless you're Dwyane Wade
 Jay-Z is mad at him
 Delonte West never slept with Michael Jordan's mom ...
 But Randy Brown might have
 Maverick Carter, man, Maverick Carter
 You can't be the GOAT unless you get in trouble with the law 
 Jordan had better rookie stats
 Jordan won a title in college
 Jordan made pippen a top 50. lebron couldn't make jamario top 50.
 Jordan's influence and leadership was so great his team was able to win 55 games without him - lets see what the cavs do this year
 LeBron doesn't have a gambling problem, further demonstrating he's less competitive.
 Jordan would have won 2 more titles in the 1.8 years he missed. 
 Jordan won the slam dunk contest
 Jordan didn't lie
 Except about the gambling problem
 I bet LeBron can't hit a curveball either


----------



## seifer0406

heres a few more

- MJ doesn't have self-boasting tattoos
- Lebron never extended his arms to score a game winner against the Monstars and claim victory for the Lonnie Tunes.
- Lebron doesn't have a Hitler mustache.
- Lebron *would* play against Byron Russell in a 1 on 1
- Lebron doesn't want to attack Stockton and Barkley everytime those 2 are wearing short shorts.


----------



## E.H. Munro

When Michael Jordan travelled through time
To the year 3010,
He fought the evil robot king
and saved the human race again 

And when Michael Jordan built the pyramids, 
He beat up Kublai Kahn.
'Cause Michael Jordan doesn't take **** from an-eeeeee-body

So what would Michael Jordan do 
If he were here today,
I'm sure he'd kick an arse or two,
That's what Michael Jordan'd do


----------



## E.H. Munro

Let's Keep'em coming people...

*List of reasons LeBron will never be the GOAT: *

 He will win titles too easily, but he probably won't win any
 Jordan said so
 His name won't be last during opening presentations
 He dances
 He left the team he was drafted to
 ESPN pulled a badly written article about a party he threw in Las Vegas
 Dwyane Wade has led the Heat to a nearly .500 record since Shaq's untimely death
 If you can't win a title with Shaq's re-animated corpse as a sidekick you're just no damned good... unless you're Dwyane Wade
 Jay-Z is mad at him
 Delonte West never slept with Michael Jordan's mom ...
 But Randy Brown might have
 Maverick Carter, man, Maverick Carter
 You can't be the GOAT unless you get in trouble with the law 
 Jordan had better rookie stats
 Jordan won a title in college
 Jordan made pippen a top 50. lebron couldn't make jamario top 50.
 Jordan's influence and leadership was so great his team was able to win 55 games without him - lets see what the cavs do this year
 LeBron doesn't have a gambling problem, further demonstrating he's less competitive.
 Jordan would have won 2 more titles in the 1.8 years he missed. 
 Jordan won the slam dunk contest
 Jordan didn't lie
 Except about the gambling problem
 I bet LeBron can't hit a curveball either
 MJ doesn't have self-boasting tattoos
 Lebron never extended his arms to score a game winner against the Monstars and claim victory for the Lonnie Tunes.
 Lebron doesn't have a Hitler mustache.
 Lebron *would* play against Byron Russell in a 1 on 1
 Lebron doesn't want to attack Stockton and Barkley everytime those 2 are wearing short shorts.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

E.H. Munro said:


> LeBron doesn't have a gambling problem, further demonstrating he's less competitive.


haha, that should be higher up. That is literally perfect anti-logic right there. The type of argument you'd actually hear.


----------



## seifer0406

24 and 25 are actually the same one.

Heres another one. If neither of Lebron's 2 kids grow up to be as tall as 6-3 (Marcus Jordan), it proves that Lebron is genetically inferior and thus a lesser player/human being than MJ. We don't call it a height advantage if height isn't an advantage. The last time I checked Lebron jr. is only 3 feet 6.


----------



## Adam

LeBron is a Jockey man.


----------



## Ron

Adam said:


> LeBron is a Jockey man.


No, it's too easy of a setup...I can't take advantage of you.


----------



## Dre

LeBron hasn't fought Reggie Miller..
Or played on NBA on NBC..
Jordan concealed his douchebag ways for longer than LeBron...
The LeBron shoes will never be as big as Jordans either..


----------



## E.H. Munro

Let's Keep'em coming people...

*List of reasons LeBron will never be the GOAT: *

 He will win titles too easily, but he probably won't win any
 Jordan said so
 His name won't be last during opening presentations
 He dances
 He left the team he was drafted to
 ESPN pulled a badly written article about a party he threw in Las Vegas
 Dwyane Wade has led the Heat to a nearly .500 record since Shaq's untimely death
 If you can't win a title with Shaq's re-animated corpse as a sidekick you're just no damned good... unless you're Dwyane Wade
 Jay-Z is mad at him
 Delonte West never slept with Michael Jordan's mom ...
 But Randy Brown might have
 Maverick Carter, man, Maverick Carter
 You can't be the GOAT unless you get in trouble with the law 
 Jordan had better rookie stats
 Jordan won a title in college
 Jordan made pippen a top 50. lebron couldn't make jamario top 50.
 Jordan's influence and leadership was so great his team was able to win 55 games without him - lets see what the cavs do this year
 LeBron doesn't have a gambling problem, further demonstrating he's less competitive.
 Jordan would have won 2 more titles in the 1.8 years he missed. 
 Jordan won the slam dunk contest
 Jordan didn't lie
 Except about the gambling problem
 I bet LeBron can't hit a curveball either
 MJ doesn't have self-boasting tattoos
 Lebron never extended his arms to score a game winner against the Monstars and claim victory for the Lonnie Tunes.
 Lebron doesn't have a Hitler mustache.
 Lebron *would* play against Byron Russell in a 1 on 1
 Lebron doesn't want to attack Stockton and Barkley everytime those 2 are wearing short shorts.
 LeBron's so terrified of Michael Jordan he won't even wear Hanes underwear.
 LeBron never fought Reggie Miller.
 If LeBron were really that good he would bring back the NBA on NBC.
 No one knew that Jordan was a douchebag unless they paid attention.
 The LeBron shoes will never be as big as Jordans either.


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## Ben

:lol: ^

You must spread rep before giving it to E.H. Munro again.


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## Sir Patchwork

E.H. Munro said:


> *List of reasons LeBron will never be the GOAT: *
> 
> He will win titles too easily, but he probably won't win any
> Jordan said so
> His name won't be last during opening presentations
> He dances
> He left the team he was drafted to
> ESPN pulled a badly written article about a party he threw in Las Vegas
> Dwyane Wade has led the Heat to a nearly .500 record since Shaq's untimely death
> If you can't win a title with Shaq's re-animated corpse as a sidekick you're just no damned good... unless you're Dwyane Wade
> Jay-Z is mad at him
> Delonte West never slept with Michael Jordan's mom ...
> But Randy Brown might have
> Maverick Carter, man, Maverick Carter
> You can't be the GOAT unless you get in trouble with the law
> Jordan had better rookie stats
> Jordan won a title in college
> Jordan made pippen a top 50. lebron couldn't make jamario top 50.
> Jordan's influence and leadership was so great his team was able to win 55 games without him - lets see what the cavs do this year
> LeBron doesn't have a gambling problem, further demonstrating he's less competitive.
> Jordan would have won 2 more titles in the 1.8 years he missed.
> Jordan won the slam dunk contest
> Jordan didn't lie
> Except about the gambling problem
> I bet LeBron can't hit a curveball either
> MJ doesn't have self-boasting tattoos
> Lebron never extended his arms to score a game winner against the Monstars and claim victory for the Lonnie Tunes.
> Lebron doesn't have a Hitler mustache.
> Lebron *would* play against Byron Russell in a 1 on 1
> Lebron doesn't want to attack Stockton and Barkley everytime those 2 are wearing short shorts.
> LeBron's so terrified of Michael Jordan he won't even wear Hanes underwear.
> LeBron never fought Reggie Miller.
> If LeBron were really that good he would bring back the NBA on NBC.
> No one knew that Jordan was a douchebag unless they paid attention.
> The LeBron shoes will never be as big as Jordans either.



34. There are 33 undebatable reasons before this one, which in itself is reason enough to realize he cannot be the GOAT.


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## Shaoxia

35. Michael Jordan is more handsome


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## Najee

Michael Jordan didn't "take his talents to South Beach," even though Pat Riley retired his number.


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## Adam

The GOAT makes sure he takes the injury excuse when the media is giving him one. If you ain't protectin' that rep maybe you ain't got one?!


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## Najee

Jordan made a music video with Michael Jackson; the best LeBron can hope for is Justin Bieber.


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## Pay Ton

I was going to post one similar to Najee's...

Jordan's number was retired by the Heat without ever playing a game for them, therefore, Lebron's number needs to be retired by the Heat this offseason or else it will be too late.


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## John

Shaoxia said:


> 35. Michael Jordan is more handsome


If it wasnt for his nose, James is not far behind coz of different style. Jordan;s body figure is more towards "fine art" style while James's more towards "manish" and I am not gay.


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## E.H. Munro

Time for another update...

*List of reasons LeBron will never be the GOAT: *

 He will win titles too easily, but he probably won't win any
 Jordan said so
 His name won't be last during opening presentations
 He dances
 He left the team he was drafted to
 ESPN pulled a badly written article about a party he threw in Las Vegas
 Dwyane Wade has led the Heat to a nearly .500 record since Shaq's untimely death
 If you can't win a title with Shaq's re-animated corpse as a sidekick you're just no damned good... unless you're Dwyane Wade
 Jay-Z is mad at him
 Delonte West never slept with Michael Jordan's mom ...
 But Randy Brown might have
 Maverick Carter, man, Maverick Carter
 You can't be the GOAT unless you get in trouble with the law 
 Jordan had better rookie stats
 Jordan won a title in college
 Jordan made pippen a top 50. lebron couldn't make jamario top 50.
 Jordan's influence and leadership was so great his team was able to win 55 games without him - lets see what the cavs do this year
 LeBron doesn't have a gambling problem, further demonstrating he's less competitive.
 Jordan would have won 2 more titles in the 1.8 years he missed. 
 Jordan won the slam dunk contest
 Jordan didn't lie
 Except about the gambling problem
 I bet LeBron can't hit a curveball either
 MJ doesn't have self-boasting tattoos
 Lebron never extended his arms to score a game winner against the Monstars and claim victory for the Lonnie Tunes.
 Lebron doesn't have a Hitler mustache.
 Lebron *would* play against Byron Russell in a 1 on 1
 Lebron doesn't want to attack Stockton and Barkley everytime those 2 are wearing short shorts.
 LeBron's so terrified of Michael Jordan he won't even wear Hanes underwear.
 LeBron never fought Reggie Miller.
 If LeBron were really that good he would bring back the NBA on NBC.
 No one knew that Jordan was a douchebag unless they paid attention.
 The LeBron shoes will never be as big as Jordans either.
 Michael Jordan didn't "take his talents to South Beach," even though Pat Riley retired his number.
 Michael Jordan made a music video with Michael Jackson, top that LeBron!
 You never saw anyone make one of these lists for Jordan, didja!?
 Michael Jordan never played a single game for the Heat, and they retired his number anyway. Even on the Heat LeBron will be in Michael's shadow.
 Michael Jordan is better looking.
 Michael Jordan's body is more fine art, and LBJ's is more mannish, and John isn't gay.


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## RapsFan

40. Dan Gilbert will never sell any share of the Cavs to Lebron.


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## Najee

Jordan is known for The Shot, The Jordan Rules, The Shrug, The Return, The Double-Nickle and The Final Shot; LeBron is only known for The Decision.

Jordan endorsed a feminine hygeiene product on "Saturday Nite Live;" LeBron played a Solid Gold dancer.

Jordan has no problem with a CEO beating him on film; LeBron stole film after Jordan Crawford dunked on him.


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## Pay Ton

42.) Jordan broke the Cavs heart's countless times. Lebron has only done it once.


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## BeeGee

Some of you cats are obviously bored with what was once a discussion. Time for another topic, perhaps?


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## E.H. Munro

We're enjoying ourselves making fun of the nonsense


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## Sir Patchwork

We're actually making it easy for you. Pick one of the reasons listed and run with it. No thinking required!


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## Ben

Pay Ton said:


> 42.) Jordan broke the Cavs heart's countless times. Lebron has only done it once.


Give it time.


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## KG-Kid21

TheDarkPrince said:


> People keep say Jordan had "great" players around him. Outside of Pippen, everyone else who played with Jordan were career journey men.
> 
> First 3 peat team
> 
> C Bill Cartwright - good defender, decent jump shooter, was near the end of his career when he was traded to the Bulls.
> 
> PF Horace Grant - good defender, great hustle guy who did all the dirty work.
> 
> SF Scottie Pippen - outstanding defender, good second option on offense.
> 
> PG John Paxson - great shooter, so-so defender was in his twilight when the bulls started winning titles
> 
> Those players were good, but I would not say star studded by a long shot.
> 
> 
> Second 3 peat squad
> 
> C Luc Longley - Big guy, ok post game, was a foul magnet.
> 
> PF Dennis Rodman - great rebounder, great defender, could not score to save his life.
> 
> SF Scottie Pippen - (same as above)
> 
> PG Ron Harper - good defender, so-so scorer, was in his twilight during the Bulls last run.
> 
> special mention goes to Toni Kukoc off of the bench.
> 
> Once again good players, but future hall of fame guys? Outside of Scottie the rest were just good, or serviceable.


that's all well and good and fair enough but LeBron has never had a player of Pippen's calibur so while I appreciate your clarification I don't see how it hurts Lebron in the context of what we've been talking about..

I've only read about 7 pages of this mess, but the people who are bashing LeBron James are full of ****...and I'm as big of a Jordan guy as you can be...

You just don't win championships with the supporting cast James has had to deal with....LeBron did everything and more that you could ask for two years ago in Orlando...hit a game winner, almost dropped 40 a night....his teammates wet themselves at the prospect of hitting an open shot..shots that were dropping in the regular season....

Now this year against the Celtics was somewhat of a different story in that Lebron didn't play as well as he could've....STILL, this doesn't change the fact that the man had a washed up, no defense Jamison who didn't look to assert himself ONCE offensively...yet some of you just refer to him as a former allstar like it means something...**** that...I'm also a huge Shaq guy but if anybody was washed up it was Shaq...he had one good playoff effort in a loss to the C's...yet some of you just refer to him as the future hall of famer like it means something...**** that

The bottom line is, 60 wins in the East or not...it all changes when you see these teammates choking in front of him...I won't make excuses for LeBron in these playoffs...though I do wonder how much the elbow was bothering him...but the point is, that's one choke job on his part at worst...and Jordan didn't get it done until Pippen...Mo Williams a few years ago...Jamison at the deadline....that's not a Pippen...there's not a handful of guys on the planet who could drop 20 as a #2 option in addition to playing the perimeter defense that Pippen brought to the table..

I think some of you really need to look at yourselves and ask yourself, if Cleveland had 20 mill in cap room BEYOND James....and Wade came to the Cavs...would your view of LeBron James change? I guarentee you it would, as others have mentioned...and that's not fair. It proves your whole mindset wrong...*I cannot sit here and fault LeBron for not having a ring yet...and I cannot sit here and fault LeBron for leaving a front office with no cap room and seemingly no willingless or ability to bring in the Scottie Pippen that every superstar needs to win a championship and build said legacies.....maybe you can.*


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## Najee

The bottom line is no one -- not LeBron James, not Michael Jordan, not Wilt Chamberlain -- is going to lead a team to an NBA championship with Mo Williams as its second-best player. The guy would struggle to be more than the fourth-best player on most playoff-caliber teams a year ago.


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## Blue




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## Ron

Blue Magic said:


>


This is *freakin' hilarious!!!*

:lol: :laugh: :lol:


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## King Sancho Fantastic

i hate the offseason..


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## Wade County

That's a nice photoshop job though :laugh:


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## Dre

Final reason:



> According to the TMZ website, NBA player LeBron James paid Rabbi Yoshiyahu Yosef Pinto six figures to sit in on a merchandising meeting on a yacht somewhere off the coast of New York. Rabbi Pinto is styled as something as business guru-slash-spiritual leader to the rich and famous. According to TMZ, he is known a around New York as the “Rabbi to the Business Stars.”
> 
> Rabbi Pinto — a 37 year-old-man who speaks only Hebrew — has met with all sorts of business moguls in the past … and is considered by some to be a “spiritual guide” who consults on business matters.
> 
> TMZ reports that LeBron paid in the neighborhood of 6-figures to get Rabbi Pinto to sit in on today’s meeting … in which LeBron heard presentations from several “big time” retail execs.
> Advertise On YWN »


LeBron needs spiritual advice, whereas Jordan is already god so he consults himself.


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## BG7

43. You are what you eat, and Michael Jordan ate God. Lebron James ate Dwyane Wade's dick.


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## Sir Patchwork

It's been over a month, and the Heat still haven't won a game. Overrrrratttteeddddd.


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## Dee-Zy

Ron said:


> This is *freakin' hilarious!!!*
> 
> :lol: :laugh: :lol:


Damn it, pic is broken


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## Dre

Look at his avatar :laugh:


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## Dre

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's been over a month, and the Heat still haven't won a game. Overrrrratttteeddddd.


Kobe hasn't lost one yet either.


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## 77AJ

BG7 said:


> 43. You are what you eat, and Michael Jordan ate God. Lebron James ate Dwyane Wade's dick.


In basketball terms, this is pretty spot on. However D Wade is benefiting greatly as well from having James on his team. I do believe Wade will be the leader though.


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