# The Official Spencer Hawes Discussion Thread



## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

I think many of us here consider Spencer Hawes to be "our guy".

Not it's time to ask ourselves some questions about the qualities we desire for a new center.

1. "Is he athletic enough?"

We know that he is not Greg Oden. Hell he might not even be Bogut or Kaman. But is he able to move up and down the court fast enough? How is his conditioning? Will he gain the the muscle needed?

2. "Does he have good offensive skills"

This is apparently his biggest asset. He seems comfortable with his back to the basket, just as much or equal to Hibbert.

3. "Can he play defense?"

He does seem to be be a decent shot blocker if not spectacular. I think strength is a concern for the moment as far as holding his postition. 

4. "Does he have the eye of the tiger?"

This is one of the things we knew we were getting with Tyrus Thomas. Hawes' poor rebounding definitely questions his desire. 

5. "What is his floor/ceiling?"

He could be either Brad Miller or a less athletic Chris Mihm.

Discuss


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Aside from the fact that he needs to put on a lot of weight before he can be terribly effective in the post, my biggest concern is that he won't be able to run with our team that well.


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## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Aside from the fact that he needs to put on a lot of weight before he can be terribly effective in the post, my biggest concern is that he won't be able to run with our team that well.


I admit I haven't seem much of him. Does he really struggle to get up the court? Below average for NBA centers?


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

As much as I hear from you guys about his offense, I still have this huge gut feeling that he has TONS of Bust potential. If Pax picks him, I will have all doubts removed. But I don't know. I understand the guys ahead of him are older, more experienced, more television exposure (Tourney) and are winners. But I have a hard time buying that a 7 footer with exceptional post-skills is dropping this low on mock drafts in a league with a dearth of big men.

Oden - Check
Durant - Check
Wright - Check
Horford - Check
Yi - Maybe, but Check

Noah isn't special. Hibbert would only go higher due to GTown's run, I don't see Hibbert as anything but an NBA Journey-men. 

Spencer Hawes should be a top 7 pick if his offensive ability is good enough today for the NBA. Hell, you could argue him being the 5th pick as 7 foot, 240lb 19 year olds aren't available everyday of the week.

I've read the DX articles and have seen the Youtube Vid. I liked it, but I feel that there is just more to it. I don't get this feeling with the other players.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Electric Slim said:


> I admit I haven't seem much of him. Does he really struggle to get up the court? Below average for NBA centers?


No. He gets up and down the floor very well for a big. In fact, he has a decent little open floor handle on top of it, for a guy his size. 

Its no secret he's my guy. I've been trumpeting him for the Bulls since last year's McDonald's All-American game. I think he's going to be a very effective all-around offensive minded big man. Not a superstar, but a very solid big.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I hope you guys are right  I wish I just had the same passion for Hawes at the moment. I don't really have a guy right now, other than the obvious: 1. Oden, 2. Durant, 3. Wright, 4. Horford.

I would easily take Hawes before Hibbert. If Yi is available somehow, I'd consider him over Hawes, but that is up to Pax's judgement. Its hard to compare the CBA to the NCAA/NBA. 

In theory, Hawes is a perfect fit, and I'd like to take a risk on him. It'd pay huge dividends if it paid off. 

We'll know more in June when workouts start.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

I've seen Hawes a few times during the year and I'm not impressed. The guy is SLOW. He has some nifty hooks with either hand but other than that I'm not sure where all the hype is coming from.


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## Swan (Jun 27, 2005)

Electric Slim said:


> I think many of here consider Spencer Hawes to be "our guy".
> 
> Not it's time to ask ourselves some questions about the qualities we desire for a new center.
> 
> ...


I'll bite.

The real problem with evaluating Hawes is sample size. His freshman year was underwhelming. One would have expected a player of his pedigree to take his program into the tournament. He didn't he didn't rebound that well and his team didn't have success. However, there were two mitigating factors:

1. He had minor surgery that limited his preseason. He was cleared to play Nov. 1st and his 1st game was the 12th.

2. In January he had a stomach virus that caused him to lose twenty pounds.

Now these two things are concerning in and of themselves (is the guy injury prone, can he stay healthy?) but #2 especially I'd think would have suppressed his stats. He did play through it, though, which might speak to his toughness. His overall stats were 14.9 and 6.4. If you only look at Dec, and Feb-end of season, his stats are 16.9 and 7.1. 


Onto the points raised:
1. I don't think athleticism is a strong point, but I think, at least in terms of weight, he should be okay. He doesn't have a freakish wingspan nor is he a good shotblocker at this point in time.

2. Yes. He knows how to play the block, and has family pedigree: His dad, uncles are all big men. He isn't a prospect who has the body, but needs the footwork. Like Paxson himself, he comes from a basketball family.

3. Biggest question mark. I think NBA caliber D is something he would have to learn. Doubt he'll ever become a high blocks guy but don't see him as a guy who doesn't get the mental aspect of defense i.e. if he's missing rotations, its because he's slow afoot, not in the head.

4. Up for grabs. Had some of his biggest games against LSU (Big Baby), UCLA, and Pitt (Aaron Gray). He was the leading scorer at the Junior Olympics for the USA last year.

5. I think it's hard to put a ceiling or floor on this guy. My best case scenario: the American Pau Gasol - shotblocking skills. Worst case scenario: Nothing's coming to me right away: maybe Tod MacCullough?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

SALO said:


> I've seen Hawes a few times during the year and I'm not impressed. The guy is SLOW. He has some nifty hooks with either hand but other than that I'm not sure where all the hype is coming from.


He is not slow for a big man. He can get up and down the court every bit as well as a big man like Bogut or Duncan, and that is good enough.


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## Swan (Jun 27, 2005)

I agree Ron. I don't have the same slowness fears with Hawes that I have with Hibbert. I think Bogut is actually a good comparable. Bogut's freshman year stats:

12.5ppg 58% shooting, 9.9 rebs, 64% ft, 73 assists 44 blocks in 33 games, 30.4 min pg

Hawes
14.9 ppg 53% shooting 6.4 rebs, 75.5% ft, 60 assists 54 blocks in 31 games, 29 min pg

Take into account Hawes was playing in the Pac-10... hopefully he's got more grit than Bogut, but it's hard to say what Hawes's stats would look like if he stayed another year in school


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Swan said:


> Take into account Hawes was playing in the Pac-10... *hopefully he's got more grit than Bogut*, but it's hard to say what Hawes's stats would look like if he stayed another year in school


I doubt it. Hawes is kinda soft and his rebounding numbers are downright sad. I'll admit it. But at least he isn't soft *and* one dimensional.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Keep in mind that Hawes played a lot of high post and his presence on the court allowed his good friend Jon Brockman to go from 6.5 RPG as a Frosh to 9.6 RPG as a Soph. Brockman is 6'7" 260 and needed to play down low.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

How'd he do with the "Skiles staring at him during dinner" test?


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

From what I've seen/read, Hawes is most comperable to Kristic.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Electric Slim said:


> I admit I haven't seem much of him. Does he really struggle to get up the court? Below average for NBA centers?


I've hardly seen him myself, I just know from the scouting reports that he's not terribly athletic. I don't think he'd be such a good prospect if he was considered below average for a center, it's just that he's not a great athlete compared to some of the freaks of nature in the NBA. My concern stems not from the fact that I think he'll be noticably slow, but from the fact that we run a lot more than people seem to realize. I think that most traditional center types might slow us down a little.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Outside the obvious top 4, I think Yi fits us very well for a team that likes to run. Yi has a Bargnani type of game.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

I think he's going to be pretty awful defensively. I think I'd rather draft a big man who's good at defense and poor at offense. I think Deng, Hinrich, Gordon, Nocioni and eventually Tytus will form a strong enough offense.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I've hardly seen him myself, I just know from the scouting reports that he's not terribly athletic. I don't think he'd be such a good prospect if he was considered below average for a center, it's just that he's not a great athlete compared to some of the freaks of nature in the NBA. My concern stems not from the fact that I think he'll be noticably slow, but from the fact that we run a lot more than people seem to realize. I think that most traditional center types might slow us down a little.


I think when people say Hawes is unatheltic, they mean compared to the like of Oden or Shaq or David Robinson who are are all elite level big men. However, I would consider Hawes to be above average athletically. Along the lines of Ilgauskas, Kristic, Brad Miller. Unathletic to me means somebody like Hibbert, Muresan, Diop.

He uses his skill and quick feet to make his post moves. Not his size or girth. You need to be athletic to pull that off. Defensively, he can be quick enough to guard 80% of the centers in this league no problem.

He has absolutely no trouble moving up and down the court. Above average I'd say. Plus he can hit the 18 foot jumper.

Hawes video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHjRxsM6pdQ 4:56 mark


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

theanimal23 said:


> Outside the obvious top 4, I think Yi fits us very well for a team that likes to run. Yi has a Bargnani type of game.


Yi is the one guy I don't want out of the bigs. The clips I've seen of him just didn't impress me, and I think we need a post presence, not a big who lives on the perimeter. I was all for Bargs last season, but we're set at the 1-4, and we needa slashing-type bigger 4, or a 5. Not a guy like Yi.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

lougehrig said:


> I think when people say Hawes is unatheltic, they mean compared to the like of Oden or Shaq or David Robinson who are are all elite level big men. However, I would consider Hawes to be above average athletically. Along the lines of Ilgauskas, Kristic, Brad Miller. Unathletic to me means somebody like Hibbert, Muresan, Diop.
> 
> He uses his skill and quick feet to make his post moves. Not his size or girth. You need to be athletic to pull that off. Defensively, he can be quick enough to guard 80% of the centers in this league no problem.
> 
> ...


Yeah. That's exactly how I feel. I'm just not sure whether or not we'd be able to run the way we do now with Kristic or Z in the lineup.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> However, I would consider Hawes to be above average athletically. Along the lines of Ilgauskas, Kristic, Brad Miller. Unathletic to me means somebody like Hibbert, Muresan, Diop.
> 
> Ilgauskas is slow as heck. Definately not above average athletically. Brad Miller is also average athletically at best IMO.
> 
> Hawes may be above average now, but what happens when he gains the weight he needs?


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

TripleDouble said:


> lougehrig said:
> 
> 
> > However, I would consider Hawes to be above average athletically. Along the lines of Ilgauskas, Kristic, Brad Miller. Unathletic to me means somebody like Hibbert, Muresan, Diop.
> ...


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Yeah. That's exactly how I feel. I'm just not sure whether or not we'd be able to run the way we do now with Kristic or Z in the lineup.


You think the run and gun Lakers of the 80's had Kareem running the floor? You need 3 of your guys on the floor to run to be good. Hawes would lead the break.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

If Hawes can be Chris Kaman with better offense (Which it seems), I will be a happy camper. Not this year's Kaman, but last year when he really came through. I would have been thrilled witha a 2005-2006 Kaman. 

2005-2006 Kaman + Offense = Hawes? If true, then


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

I think Yi is a very talented prospect but he's a SF at best. If Toronto didn't have an inside presence (Bosh), then with just Bargnani, they'd get 150pts scored on them every night. The PF spot is TT's & Deng has the SF spot on LOCK.

We need a C of the future, not a SF trying to play PF/C.

Hawes is my #1 selection in our range, Splitter is #2.

Hopefully Green, Conley, J. Wright & Brewer can move some players down for us.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

The question marks on Hawes to me are, how much did his illness hold him back.
I'd like to see how much weigh he stacks on between now and the draft. He may really pack it on in a couple of month because he'll be returning to his normal, pre illness weight.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

I watch a lot of college basketball. Hawes is not horribly unathletic. He can get up and down the court pretty well and has really good footwork around the basket. The biggest issue with him is how he manages to guard on the defensive end. He lacks the necessary muscle and from what I've seen, the intensity to be a really good defensive player. 

On offense he's got a nice array of post moves and can step out and hit the jumper. He might have problems getting his shot off in the NBA especially when he's facing a stronger, more athletic guy. I think that he's probably two years away, but in two years he'll match up favorably to centers like Bogut, and other big men who aren't superior in the athleticism and strength department. My guess is that worst case he ends up like Todd Fuller, Cherokee Parks, or any other big white guy drafted in the 1st round. Best case is he becomes Rik Smits. Solid player who is extremely valuable to his team on the offensive end and doesn't detract on the defensive end. Average case probably means he has an Ilgauskas or Brad Miller type career.


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I think Yi is a very talented prospect but he's a SF at best. If Toronto didn't have an inside presence (Bosh), then with just Bargnani, they'd get 150pts scored on them every night. The PF spot is TT's & Deng has the SF spot on LOCK.
> 
> We need a C of the future, not a SF trying to play PF/C.
> 
> ...



I agree that we need a true C/PF unless someone like Yi blows Pax away at a workout. (However, if that player in this draft was that good he probably would be drafted ahead of us in any event.) I think either Hawes or Splitter being there at #9 is a reasonable projection, absent players such as B.Wright or Hibbert going back to school. I am not sure who I prefer of the two (Hawes or Splitter)at this time.

Realistically, I see Brewer as the only non-big drafted before #9. Perhaps Conley also, but I believe most, if not all, of these teams will seek to go big this year because of all the available big men out there. For the life of me, I don't see how anyone can draft Green high after his disappearance in his last game of the tournament. J. Wright does not appear to be that extraordinary IMO.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

T.Shock said:


> I watch a lot of college basketball. Hawes is not horribly unathletic. He can get up and down the court pretty well and has really good footwork around the basket. The biggest issue with him is how he manages to guard on the defensive end. He lacks the necessary muscle and from what I've seen, the intensity to be a really good defensive player.
> 
> On offense he's got a nice array of post moves and can step out and hit the jumper. He might have problems getting his shot off in the NBA especially when he's facing a stronger, more athletic guy. I think that he's probably two years away, but in two years he'll match up favorably to centers like Bogut, and other big men who aren't superior in the athleticism and strength department. My guess is that worst case he ends up like Todd Fuller, Cherokee Parks, or any other big white guy drafted in the 1st round. Best case is he becomes Rik Smits. Solid player who is extremely valuable to his team on the offensive end and doesn't detract on the defensive end. Average case probably means he has an Ilgauskas or Brad Miller type career.


Sorry Shock I don't see him as close to any of these guys 

I see him kind of resembling a white man's Chris Webber ( meanaing less athletic and dominant than Webber in his prime )

His offensive footwork is fairly polished -, fakes out the defender well enough as he is crafty with the ball in his hands , has a nice jump hook and have seen him use an up and under move on a drop step . Can hit a face up

Fuller, Miller, Parks nor Smits were these type of players. Smits's footwork in the post wasn't that great he was just a tall bastit that could pop a hook over defenders and had good face up range to 15ft.

This guy seems like he can really use his feet on the offensive end 

And he can pass extremely well and in particular isn't shy to toss the outlet pass

I think he would make a nice complement to Thomas ( future ) but I had also liked Hibbert 

Hibbert is slower and more mechanical but having a genuine big body with a couple of back to the basket moves( in Glen Davis )moves helped Thomas enormously at LSU 

I wonder whether Hibbert could be a better long term fit alongside him and to provide us with the genuine bulk we could use . Hibbert isn't a horrible passer either although I worry about him being able to stay on the court in the NBA game . My biggest concern is conditioning and being a step slow that leads to cheap/fatigue fouls

We've seen enough of that with Sweets to go down that road again

I'm leaning toward Hawes being the guy not named Oden that I want most


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

I'm going with Hawes over Hibbert also. I just don't see Roy having the same type of passion and desire to get BETTER like I see with Spencer Hawes. Hawes wants to be GREAT and he has the ability to be one of the best scoring big's in the entire NBA. Hibbert isn't particularly great at ANYTHING although he's a decent overall prospect. He reminds me of a smarter Eddy Curry but not as good offensively. He reads the defense incredibly well and always seems to find the cutter or open guy on the floor. The only thing Hawes lacks that Hibbert has is BULK and better defense. I'm under the firm belief that Hawes would be a #1 pick if he stayed in college another 2 years.

If he falls to us, John Paxson will take him.

G Hinrich (6"3) [distributor, defensive minded guard]
G Gordon (6"3) [scoring guard]
F Deng (6"9) [slashing-spot up shooting forward]
F Thomas (6"9/6"10) [athletic, defensive minded-forward]
C Hawes (7"0) [scoring big]

That team will be HARD to stop.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

If Pax definitely decides to add a big man at 9 and it is Hawes, I'm hoping he can turn a 2008 1st rounder and our 2nd rounders in 2007 into a mid 1st round pick to also get Tiago Splitter. 

C: Wallace/Hawes/Splitter
PF: Tyrus/PJ (Vet Min)/Malik
SF: Deng/Noce/Griff
SG: Gordon/Thabo
PG: Kirk/Du

I know thats 13 people for 12 spots, but you get the idea. Maybe Griff can sit on the DL for a while.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> If Pax definitely decides to add a big man at 9 and it is Hawes, I'm hoping he can turn a 2008 1st rounder and our 2nd rounders in 2007 into a mid 1st round pick to also get Tiago Splitter.


That idea is GENIUS.


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## kelvinzee (May 5, 2006)

I can't believe some of you guys think Hawes is the next great center. He is the great white hype in the NBA. When is the last 7 foot white guy from the US to be any good. I can't think of one player in the past 10 years. I think Chris Kaman has been the best. I would rather take someone else more athletic or even another swingman like Brewer, who will be a defensive stopper than a slow tall white guy. Spencer Hawes is the next Greg Ostertag. If we are lucky he is the next Chris Kaman.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

kelvinzee said:


> I can't believe some of you guys think Hawes is the next great center. He is the great white hype in the NBA. When is the last 7 foot white guy from the US to be any good. I can't think of one player in the past 10 years. I think Chris Kaman has been the best. I would rather take someone else more athletic or even another swingman like Brewer, who will be a defensive stopper than a slow tall white guy. Spencer Hawes is the next Greg Ostertag. If we are lucky he is the next Chris Kaman.


I don't really think it's fair to stereotype like that simply because of the guy's race. First of all, it's not like there have been a ton of white seven footers drafted in the lottery. Moreover, Brad Miller had a few great seasons and Mihm is underrated.


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## Nu_Omega (Nov 27, 2006)

Although i expect Hawes to be a better version of Divac and Sabonis, does anyone here think he might be comparable to Mehmet Okur? I don't really have the chance to see Mehmet play though.

If Pax drafts Hawes and assume he can develop into a 14ppg, 7rpg and 2 apg player, i'll be excited.


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## souleater (Apr 21, 2007)

my opinion is that we do not need a new young player,we need a low post veteran player,prefferably all star so trade asap the pick with noce or luol for a guy like randolph,brand???(elton back),amare


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## andras (Mar 19, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> How'd he do with the "Skiles staring at him during dinner" test?


:lol: thanks for bringing that up again! :clap2:

on topic: I haven't seen Hawes - expect for some you tube - but he sounds like a very interesting prospect for this bulls. let's wait and see how he handles himself in the workouts. if his workouts are good, he might very well be long gone when we're up..


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

souleater said:


> my opinion is that we do not need a new young player,we need a low post veteran player,prefferably all star so trade asap the pick with noce or luol for a guy like randolph,brand???(elton back),amare


Randoph : 6"9 headcase

Brand : 6"8, we'd be the shortest team in the NBA

Amare : you're not getting amare.

try again


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## kelvinzee (May 5, 2006)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I don't really think it's fair to stereotype like that simply because of the guy's race. First of all, it's not like there have been a ton of white seven footers drafted in the lottery. Moreover, Brad Miller had a few great seasons and Mihm is underrated.


If you are hoping he is the next Mihm, we can have the real Chris Mihm via free agency and still draft the best player available instead of Hawes. There is almost at least 2-3 7 footers drafted in the lottery every year. How many pan out? Only white players i would want the bulls to draft are Europeans. America just simply can't develop the next white superstar. What happened to Morrison, Wally, or Van Horn? Hawes would be the worst player the bulls can draft. I would rather they play Thomas and Wallace or trade the pick, thomas and gordon or deng for Garnett or O'Neal.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> I'm leaning toward Hawes being the guy not named Oden that I want most


That's a pretty big statement. You're saying you'd take him over Durant or Horford or Noah?

Hawes looks pretty decent for our probably position, but he doesn't look like a sure thing either.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

kelvinzee said:


> If you are hoping he is the next Mihm, we can have the real Chris Mihm via free agency and still draft the best player available instead of Hawes. There is almost at least 2-3 7 footers drafted in the lottery every year. How many pan out? Only white players i would want the bulls to draft are Europeans. America just simply can't develop the next white superstar. What happened to Morrison, Wally, or Van Horn? Hawes would be the worst player the bulls can draft. I would rather they play Thomas and Wallace or trade the pick, thomas and gordon or deng for Garnett or O'Neal.


I view Mihm as more of a floor than a ceiling. Also, I've advocated signing him with the MLE, but simply making that offer nowhere near guarantees that he'd accept. I'd say that Steve Nash has been a pretty good superstar unless you want to pointlessly dwell on the fact that he's Canadian. The fact of the matter is that very few US born white players are good enough to be drafted in the lottery these days, so the odds of several turning into stars is extremely low. However, the few good enough to be drafted that high have a relatively strong track record. Wally had a few phenomenal seasons before injuries got the best of him and Hinrich has been one of the better players drafted where he was in his draft class.


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## kelvinzee (May 5, 2006)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I view Mihm as more of a floor than a ceiling. Also, I've advocated signing him with the MLE, but simply making that offer nowhere near guarantees that he'd accept. I'd say that Steve Nash has been a pretty good superstar unless you want to pointlessly dwell on the fact that he's Canadian. The fact of the matter is that very few US born white players are good enough to be drafted in the lottery these days, so the odds of several turning into stars is extremely low. However, the few good enough to be drafted that high have a relatively strong track record. Wally had a few phenomenal seasons before injuries got the best of him and Hinrich has been one of the better players drafted where he was in his draft class.


I know i am gonna get pounded on this one, but the one player i think the bulls should trade in any deal is Hinrich. He is so overrated! I think we were better off with him on the bench, and Miami made their run when Hinrich came back in the game in the 4th.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> I think when people say Hawes is unatheltic, they mean compared to the like of Oden or Shaq or David Robinson who are are all elite level big men. However, I would consider Hawes to be above average athletically. Along the lines of Ilgauskas, Kristic, Brad Miller. Unathletic to me means somebody like Hibbert, Muresan, Diop.
> 
> He uses his skill and quick feet to make his post moves. Not his size or girth. You need to be athletic to pull that off. Defensively, he can be quick enough to guard 80% of the centers in this league no problem.
> 
> ...


I hear ya...but just to nit-pick, I would consider Sagana Diop to be way above average athletically for a guy his size. The only reason he's even in the NBA is because he's nearly as big as Shaq, but has rare quickness and agility. He's a backup only because he stinks offensively and can't do anything with the ball in his hands.

But yes, I think a Brad Miller type would be perfect alongside Tyrus Thomas for our future PF/C combo. I'm sure Hawes has what it takes to accomplish that. I only wonder if he can be tough and rugged the way Miller is.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

kelvinzee said:


> I know i am gonna get pounded on this one, but the one player i think the bulls should trade in any deal is Hinrich. He is so overrated! I think we were better off with him on the bench, and Miami made their run when Hinrich came back in the game in the 4th.


By that logic, Miami might be better off without Shaq and Wade. Afterall, the Heat made their critical runs today with them on the bench with foul trouble. 

J/k of course, but I wouldn't call Hinrich overrated. The guy barely gets any credit as it is. I would only trade him if it meant packaging him for a superior player (yes, this includes Gasol if we have a chance at him).


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## kelvinzee (May 5, 2006)

yodurk said:


> By that logic, Miami might be better off without Shaq and Wade. Afterall, the Heat made their critical runs today with them on the bench with foul trouble.
> 
> J/k of course, but I wouldn't call Hinrich overrated. The guy barely gets any credit as it is. I would only trade him if it meant packaging him for a superior player (yes, this includes Gasol if we have a chance at him).


Ok so out of Deng, Gordon or Hinrich wouldn't u say that hinrich is the most expendable for us?


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## kelvinzee (May 5, 2006)

kelvinzee said:


> Ok so out of Deng, Gordon or Hinrich wouldn't u say that hinrich is the most expendable for us?


How about Hinrich, Tyrus Thomas and the pick for Jermaine O'Neal or KG.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

kelvinzee said:


> How about Hinrich, Tyrus Thomas and the pick for Jermaine O'Neal or KG.


Pass. Both are too old to fit with the other young players and that is giving up too much.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

kelvinzee said:


> How about Hinrich, Tyrus Thomas and the pick for Jermaine O'Neal or KG.


Fans tend to like their own players too much and I'm no exception. I feel even stronger now than I did 6 months ago that this team shouldn't make a consolidation trade. We're a young, 49 win team with seemingly nowhere to go but upwards. I'd rather sit back and see how much high upside players like Lu and Tyrus can improve than deal for a known (albeit fantastic) quantity such as KG or JO. My general philosophy in sports is that the best way to win it all is to give yourself the largest window possible so I'm hardly ever a fan of trading young players for older players.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

I doubt Paxson does a consilation trade now. 
Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, TT and Thabo all stand to be better next year.
I also think Wallace will be better in our system for having a year with everyone.
Add a draft pick and sit back and wait two years.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

kelvinzee said:


> Ok so out of Deng, Gordon or Hinrich wouldn't u say that hinrich is the most expendable for us?


He's expendable for the right player. It's not about whether to trade him or not trade him. All that matters is whether the player we get back in return makes us a better team.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

kelvinzee said:


> How about Hinrich, Tyrus Thomas and the pick for Jermaine O'Neal or KG.


3 lottery picks for Jermaine O'Neal? Talk about overrated. The guy is still considered an all-star, even though he hasn't played a full season in several years (injuries) and who is far from a top tier player. I'd consider this deal for KG, but the problem with that is making it work under the cap. It'd be risky throwing away all this talent for a guy who we might only have for a couple years. We'd be betting the farm that this leads to a championship.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Interesting article on him today.



> When I spoke to Hawes, he was on his way to the U Dub to play a pickup game. It's part of a daily routine that includes lifting weights, working on his moves and, oh yeah, class. He's taking 15 credits this quarter.
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


My thinking on Hawes is that this is a kid who's never faced much adversity. Having one foot in the pool is probably a good metaphor. He's taking 15 credits this quarter while preparing for the lottery? That's not a serious approach.

It really doesn't seem like he's ever been tested and his soft, I'll dip a toe in and see what happens approach to things bears this out. Now that doesn't mean he's a certain bust or anything. Sometimes kids go through life pretty sheltered and when reality hits they man up pretty well. But sometimes they'd rather have a nice comfortable life without too much worry.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> My thinking on Hawes is that this is a kid who's never faced much adversity. Having one foot in the pool is probably a good metaphor. He's taking 15 credits this quarter while preparing for the lottery? That's not a serious approach.
> 
> It really doesn't seem like he's ever been tested and his soft, I'll dip a toe in and see what happens approach to things bears this out. Now that doesn't mean he's a certain bust or anything. Sometimes kids go through life pretty sheltered and when reality hits they man up pretty well. But sometimes they'd rather have a nice comfortable life without too much worry.


So you've managed to deduce all that from the fact that he hasn't jumped in the deep end in regards to the draft. God forbid any player that wants to test the waters, it's not like its ever happened before.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

step said:


> So you've managed to deduce all that from the fact that he hasn't jumped in the deep end in regards to the draft. God forbid any player that wants to test the waters, it's not like its ever happened before.


Yeah, that and nothing else. It's actually the first thing I've ever read about Spencer Hawes and I plan to actively avoid any further material. My mind is made up!:king:

Did you read the full article? What's your take?


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> However, I would consider Hawes to be above average athletically. Along the lines of Ilgauskas, Kristic, Brad Miller. Unathletic to me means somebody like Hibbert, Muresan, Diop.
> 
> Ilgauskas is slow as heck. Definately not above average athletically. Brad Miller is also average athletically at best IMO.
> 
> Hawes may be above average now, but what happens when he gains the weight he needs?


I think you are really underrating Hibbert's athleticism. He's not phenomenal athletically, but he is nowhere close to a walking stick such as Muresan or Diop. I'd actually put him about on par with Hawes athletically. Nothing special, but definitely not a detriment. He is not a high leaper, but that can be said of most 7+ footers.

Here's a couple of examples:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oyw-pg6BOQY"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oyw-pg6BOQY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

I like this clip, as many of the highlights show him in motion and running some pick and rolls:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hH5_Z8Ae3K8"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hH5_Z8Ae3K8" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

The two areas Hibbert needs the most improvement are on his footwork and his conditioning. He is a very good passing big man and has soft hands, two things I really like on the offensive end out of a post player.


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

step said:


> So you've managed to deduce all that from the fact that he hasn't jumped in the deep end in regards to the draft. God forbid any player that wants to test the waters, it's not like its ever happened before.


I have to agree with Mike. It is a simple question of "are you committed or not committed to your future career"? I understand that he is 18 years old, seven feet tall, a highly skilled basketball player, and a scholarship athlete. But you cannot have it both ways, choose your direction and do everything to make it happen.

It really does not mean much more than he's a little immature, which is not exactly a shock for a 18 year old kid.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Did you read the full article? What's your take?


My take of the article is basically he's keeping his options open. When he does declare, he wants to do it at the best time possible for himself financially (high lottery pick) and career wise (not to be stuck in a position like Darko).



> It really doesn't seem like he's ever been tested and his soft, I'll dip a toe in and see what happens approach to things bears this out.


It's quite a serious decision to make, why is being cautious such a terrible thing? Just look at how reluctant many of the other picks were in declaring, Oden didn't almost come out and he's a certain top 2 pick, Brandan Wright just declared a couple of days ago after all this time. Why does this hurt Hawes more than it hurts them?


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> It is a simple question of "are you committed or not committed to your future career"?


So if he was to return to college, work on his weaknesses and declare later in the future, that would be a sign that he isn't committed to his professional career? Right...

I'm not that wrapped with Hawes as a player, but some of the comments made are really pulling **** out of thin air.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

I'd also like to add that I only slightly prefer Hibbert to Hawes. I also slightly prefer Splitter to Hawes. I'm still not sure who I prefer between Splitter and Hibbert, however.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

The idea of Splitter appeals to me the most. He's a long, athletic, lean player that can play on both ends. I think that other than ball-handling skills, I think Splitter can do anything Noah can do. And unlike many on this board, I'm a Noah fan and would be happy taking him at 9 (assuming no one takes a huge fall in the draft, like Horford).

Here's what I think. I don't think Hawes is going to be the most talented player at that position. I don't think he even really enters the debate. Noah, Splitter, even Al Thornton might be more NBA-talented players than Hawes. Hawes is a special talent for his size, and that's not to be ignored, but I think we'd be drafting him on need and not on talent.

I've been thinking about this recently and I don't think it's a good idea to draft on need over talent. I think that's how Darko Milicic gets drafted, and Sam Bowie, and Shawn Bradley, and Olowokandi. It's not just big men, either; Billy Owens shouldn't have gone before Mutombo, etc.

You have to take the most talented player available unless you are COMPLETELY stacked at a position, and even then, sometimes you might want to take the risk. I wouldn't rule out Mike Conley at the 9 spot, honestly. I think you can turn Kirk Hinrich into something more valuable down the line, or even Conley, but you can't do that with BAD players. You can only do that with good ones, so you draft good ones.

We're not really a team that just needs one rookie big from making a title run. It makes strategic sense to train up a backup C that can take over for Big Ben as he starts to wind down. But guys like Varejao, Zaza, Antonio Davis, etc. were 2nd rounders.

I know that a lot is impossible to figure out and nothing is really for sure, but all I'm saying is that we don't need to compromise if we think Hawes has some serious weaknesses, simply because we need a big. From what I've seen, he's got great quickness and footwork, and he'd probably fit in with the offense pretty well, but we should never underestimate the fact that our success has always been because of defensive intensity in the lane, whether it was Tyson Chandler, Ben Wallace, PJ Brown, whoever. Even Longley and certainly Rodman. Championship teams have fierce defenders in the frontcourt, and while Tyrus Thomas is promising, I think we need to emphasize the defensive ability at the center spot first and foremost.

Getting "easy post points" is really overrated, when the Bulls outscored Miami 36 to 32 in points in the paint. Getting EASY points is important, but they don't have to come in the post.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

step said:


> My take of the article is basically he's keeping his options open. When he does declare, he wants to do it at the best time possible for himself financially (high lottery pick) and career wise (not to be stuck in a position like Darko).
> 
> It's quite a serious decision to make, why is being cautious such a terrible thing? Just look at how reluctant many of the other picks were in declaring, Oden didn't almost come out and he's a certain top 2 pick, Brandan Wright just declared a couple of days ago after all this time. Why does this hurt Hawes more than it hurts them?


It's not a matter of him testing the waters by itself. Like you say, many players do that. What stood out to me was the ambivalence with which he seemed to be doing it.

For example, I doubt Wright or Oden signed up for a heavy course load at the same time they are about to barnstorm around the country marketing themselves to be the highest pick possible. These guys have millions on the line and the sort of golden opportunity people dream about to be a top pick in the NBA draft.

Given that sort of opportunity, I really don't see why a person wouldn't go balls to the wall for it. It's the Mike Sweetney principle, albeit on smaller scale.

Make it your full time job or as close as humanly possible or the next couple of months. If you don't like what you're hearing, the fact that you still need to pick up Accounting 201 next semester really isn't the end of the world.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

What Mike is really trying to say, but doesn't want to come out and admit is that he doesn't like Hawes because in the article Hawes talks about being a huge Bush supporter :devil2:


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> It's not a matter of him testing the waters by itself. Like you say, many players do that. What stood out to me was the ambivalence with which he seemed to be doing it.
> 
> For example, I doubt Wright or Oden signed up for a heavy course load at the same time they are about to barnstorm around the country marketing themselves to be the highest pick possible. These guys have millions on the line and the sort of golden opportunity people dream about to be a top pick in the NBA draft.
> 
> ...


I think Hawes has BIG bust potential, but seems like a mountain is being made out of a molehill here.

There are some requirements for carrying a course load to ensure he is eligible next year. Maybe he is taking one more class or so than the bare minimum. Is one class really the difference between ambivelence and balls to the wall. I don't think so.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

cpawfan said:


> What Mike is really trying to say, but doesn't want to come out and admit is that he doesn't like Hawes because in the article Hawes talks about being a huge Bush supporter :devil2:


:yay:LOL, I've been waiting all day for someone to read the article and throw that out there!

It actually doesn't bother me one bit, but the juxtaposition of gentleman Spence sniffing at "those kids, who would buy six cars and a house on the water" if they get drafted and then discussing his potential courage for putting Bush bumper sticker on a Benz betrays a lack of... um... exposure. Or something.

So Johnston797, it's not just the courseload thing. That was a convenient and new annecdote, but it's not the only thing out there that bothers me. The courseload, the ambivalence about the money being their now or later, the generally silly comments about other kids and what he thinks would be impressive. Add that to his generally underwhelming freshman year and the picture I get is that he's a bit of a dilettant.


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## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> :yay:LOL, I've been waiting all day for someone to read the article and throw that out there!
> 
> It actually doesn't bother me one bit, but the juxtaposition of gentleman Spence sniffing at "those kids, who would buy six cars and a house on the water" if they get drafted and then discussing his potential courage for putting Bush bumper sticker on a Benz betrays a lack of... um... exposure. Or something.


Wow, Hawes really IS the next Brad Miller!


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

I can't believe this Hawes guy!! A college student signing up for a standard courseload in December? Talking like a less than worldly 19 year old? Maintaining flexibility with regard to his future career options? What's wrong with this kid?!?!?

Clearly he doesn't want the NBA bad enough.

To bring the sarcasm down a notch, I don't think a college kid doing extremely ordinary college athlete things means a whole lot in this context. Some college athletes that go pro actually graduate in 3 years - or were on track to graduate in three years when they declared. 15 hours isn't even excelerated. Its standard. And its only 3 hours (1 class) above the minimum NCAA requirements (or at least that was the requirement when I was in college).

And more and more college basketball players are "testing the waters" every year. Its become common enough that it really isn't indicative of a whole lot. Particularly here when a big man is pondering waiting a year instead of coming out in one of the most big man saturated drafts in recent memory.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

I like the idea of Hibbert over Hawes. He is more of low post player than Hawes and eventually better fit with Tyrus IMO. I don't worry too much about athleticism of the center unless we are talking about Muresan level and Hibbert is not. 

I am thinking twin tower version of two blocking machines in TT and Hibbert on defensive end. And Hibbert seems to have some nice post moves too.

Anyway, I can live with either of three, Hibbert, Hawes or Yi (although I don't think Yi will be available at 9th pick)


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

My criticism of Hawes is based on what I've seen of him on the basketball court. 

Articles like this don't really interest me much, except for the part of him being 245lbs. If he's really serious and hitting the weight room everyday like the article suggests, then he should be in the 250's at the very least come individual workouts/combine measurements.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

Salo, the guy lost almost 25 punds while sick and still played this season, thus decreasing his chance to bulk up or get back to where he was.

I was encouraged to see him at 245. 

This reminds of the TT bashing last year (of which I was a part) - TT has a bad attitude. TT can't do anything but dunk or shoot from 5 feet in, TT is a pogo stick and we have one. TT thinks he's a SF not a PF. TT won't talk to draft express cause TT is a baby and didn't like where he was projectecd.

These guys are overexposed, over scrutinized and I'll trust in Pax to do what's right, until he does what's wrong.

Bottom line with everything from last year is:

TT.......................Is a Bull and he's far from perfect. Still, he's better than giving the pick up for SEBASTIAN TELFAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hah ha..........


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

MikeDC said:


> That's a pretty big statement. You're saying you'd take him over Durant or Horford or Noah?
> 
> Hawes looks pretty decent for our probably position, but he doesn't look like a sure thing either.


Over Horford and Noah ? Yes 

Jianlian , Wrights ( Brandon and Julian ) Yes 

Conley. Yes

Green and Brewer ? Yes.

Hibbert? Yes.

Any guy like Collison or Diogu that you may be able to pry loose with a #9 pick?.Yes

Durant ? No - but I wouldn't keep Durant . I'd be targeting someone like Emeka Okafor


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

MikeDC said:


> Interesting article on him today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Eddy is a mama's boy too is as soft as they come and is one of the better post players in the league

An alternative view is that he is trying to manage his outcomes and is prudent for trying to do so

Of course Steve Francis was a bum when he bailed on the Grizz

A franchise that drafts you can make or break you and its natural to not want a situation where your out of the league in 3 or 4 years if your fit isn't right.

I can totally understand that your viewing your career and your business opportunity over 10 years and $40M to $50M and not just I'm happy to get drafted and have $10M -12M guaranteed


I think this caution is prudence 

Or ..your right he could be a big whiny puzzy


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> Eddy is a mama's boy too is as soft as they come and is one of the better post players in the league
> 
> An alternative view is that he is trying to manage his outcomes and is prudent for trying to do so
> 
> ...


Heh, it's prudent to try to manage your outcomes. It's not as prudent to talk about managing your outcomes in this situation 

As I said earlier, the school thing isn't a huge deal by itself; it was just one interesting thing among several in the article. Washington's got a funky schedule (the article mentions it) so the quarter he's talking about is actually the end off March through early June. Exactly when he ought to be focusing as much on managing his outcomes as possible in the draft.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

He's up to 245? That's pretty impressive.

He's still my guy even if he loves Bush.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> He's up to 245? That's pretty impressive.
> 
> He's still my guy even if he loves Bush.


It's quite and odd case, his not the normal Skinny guy that needs to put on weight, he had the weight on and then lost it due to illness. Good to see him put it back on. 

Hawes is going to be a hard one to scout, work out. I think more onus might get put on his workouts than other guys. How much did not having the weight on effect his game during the season? Did playing against a strong rebounder affect his rebounding level? (I don't really buy it that latter point)


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

darlets said:


> It's quite and odd case, his not the normal Skinny guy that needs to put on weight, he had the weight on and then lost it due to illness. Good to see him put it back on.
> 
> Hawes is going to be a hard one to scout, work out. I think more onus might get put on his workouts than other guys. How much did not having the weight on effect his game during the season? Did playing against a strong rebounder affect his rebounding level? (I don't really buy it that latter point)


I'll be pretty interested to see his combine scores. My sense is that when you're talking about the bigger guys (seven footers) it gets harder to tell "good weight" indicative of strength and muscle from "bad weight" indicative of just being bigger. If he's 245 and relatively quick and acceptably strong, that'd be a-ok with me. If he's 260 and can't run the court or move laterally, I'd rather him be 245.


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