# Coach's opinion of Noah



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

From a Sam Smith article:



> I was talking to an NBA big man's coach and asked about Florida's Joakim Noah, whom the Bulls looked at Friday. "I see him as a mid- to low first-round pick," the coach said. That's not exactly where most of the mock drafts—which Noah generally scorns as uninformed—have the Florida center. The coach likened Noah to Mark Madsen, the Timberwolves reserve. And though Madsen is listed two inches shorter, they did have similar statistics in college with Madsen averaging 10.9 points and 7.9 rebounds in his Stanford career and Noah 12 points and 8.4 rebounds. "Their skill is energy," the coach said. If given the choice between Noah and Hawes, the coach said he'd want Hawes for his NBA potential. He likened Hawes to Clippers center Chris Kamen.


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...smith,1,3623168.column?coll=cs-home-headlines

Perhaps the Noah/Madsen comparisons weren't so far off.


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

I don't think they are off either. I've never been impressed with Noah and I think that a lot of others are seeing the same things. He just brings a lot of screaming to the game.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

Oh my... thats funny! Mark Madsen is one of the most worthless players in the league. I'm not a big Noah fan, so I love it!


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## yuyuza1 (May 24, 2006)

So his game and dance moves are comparable to Madsen's. 

Wasn't he projected to go first by some in last year's draft? :eek8:


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## BenDavis503 (Apr 11, 2007)

I hate Noah too. Everyone does. Rich kid who always got anything he wanted growing up, Daddy got him into UF, Daddy got him on the team, Daddy gets him minutes... he is at BEST a poor mans Anderson Verajao.

IMHO


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

yuyuza1 said:


> So his game and dance moves are comparable to Madsen's.
> 
> Wasn't he projected to go first by some in last year's draft? :eek8:



Yep. Some folks right here were predicting that he was going to be better than Bargs or LaMarcus. :lol:


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

I remember last year the "experts" had Noah and Davis from LSU in the top 5. WOW!?!?!?!


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

I still have no idea what he's talking about.


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## alext42083 (Nov 7, 2003)

yuyuza1 said:


> So his game and dance moves are comparable to Madsen's.
> 
> Wasn't he projected to go first by some in last year's draft? :eek8:


I think one of those someone's was Canzano.
Here's what he said about Noah last year...

_"Today, I wrote a column on Joakim Noah, who should absoultely not turn pro this June. Doesn't need the money. Doesn't need the headache. Sorry, but this isn't Vince Young.

The Blazers, and others, might love to have Noah because he's so long and will obviously add some beef to his 6-11, 227-pound frame, but seriously, the kid is having way too much fun to join the circus in Portland, or wherever he'd be drafted in the lottery.

The NBA can wait, Joakim.

...

I was most impressed with Noah as a leader, and a passer. His ballhandling against UCLA in the open court was remarkable for a guy who is creeping up on seven-feet tall. And his wingspan caused all sort of problems. Someday, he's going to help an NBA team. Just not next season, I hope."_


I guess we're all wrong sometimes.


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## BenDavis503 (Apr 11, 2007)

I hate Canzano almost more then I hate Noah


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

I've been saying this for two years now.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> I've been saying this for two years now.


You also told us for 3 years that Ammo was the second coming of Bird....


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

BenDavis503 said:


> I hate Noah too. Everyone does. Rich kid who always got anything he wanted growing up, Daddy got him into UF, Daddy got him on the team, Daddy gets him minutes... he is at BEST a poor mans Anderson Verajao.
> 
> IMHO


So...you think Yannick Noah paid the FS coach to play his son in games, including NCAA championship games? Who on the team should have played ahead of him?


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

Speaking about Florida, potential 2nd round steal coming out of there....Chris Richards. I believe he is a 6'8 PF, but he is really athletic, good motor, and throws it down.


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

Schilly said:


> You also told us for 3 years that Ammo was the second coming of Bird....


Haha. Larry Bird was easily the 2nd best player of all-time IMO. I think Ammo can do it!!!


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

> Speaking about Florida, potential 2nd round steal coming out of there....Chris Richards. I believe he is a 6'8 PF, but he is really athletic, good motor, and throws it down.


I agree. I said late season, I wouldn't be surprised it he ends up being as good or better than Noah and Horford. I see a bit of Chris Wilcox in him.

Dan


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

Noah is going to be a decent NBA player for years to come. I doubt he will be an all-star - but he will be a solid starter for many years to come.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

I liked Noah last year. He seemed like a raw but athletic big man. I figured he could toughen up, add meat to his frame and develop a jump shot and some offensive skill as he aged (It could've happened...). Then over the last year, he proceeded to do none of that. He didn't get worse, but I'm now extrapolating on the nearly horizontal learning curve he's shown recently compared to the steep one I expected before, and his expected value looks way lower as a result.

Now I'm really down on Noah. He's going to be better than Mark Madsen, but he's not worth a top 10 pick.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

So let's say Noah's still sitting there at 13, and it happens to be the Blazers pick. I know it depends on who's still around -- let's say most all of the SFs, Conley, Horford, and the like are gone. Should Pritchard take him or go for someone in that next tier down?


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

PorterIn2004 said:


> So let's say Noah's still sitting there at 13, and it happens to be the Blazers pick. I know it depends on who's still around -- let's say most all of the SFs, Conley, Horford, and the like are gone. Should Pritchard take him or go for someone in that next tier down?


First, I think if we traded for that pick, we'd have a player or two that we'd plan to take there. It would make a ton of sense to trade for a pick that we aren't sure what we want to do there. Doesn't seem like our management's style either.

I personally really don't like Noah. I would trade it for a lower pick, or get someone in the next tier. I really don't think he'll be that great of an NBA player, and even if he turns out to be decent, I just don't like his game, and would prefer for him to be elsewhere.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

LameR said:


> First, I think if we traded for that pick, we'd have a player or two that we'd plan to take there. It would make a ton of sense to trade for a pick that we aren't sure what we want to do there. Doesn't seem like our management's style either.
> 
> I personally really don't like Noah. I would trade it for a lower pick, or get someone in the next tier. I really don't think he'll be that great of an NBA player, and even if he turns out to be decent, I just don't like his game, and would prefer for him to be elsewhere.


I hear you and I think I agree regarding Noah -- better maybe to take the best remaining SF or SG maybe.

As for your first point, while I agree it's not management's style, they _did_ nearly lose Roy. It's gotta be tricky cutting deals during the draft and at least occasionally even well run "war rooms" have to sometimes be left holding a pick they worked hard to get only to find the player they'd been after picked the slot before.


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## Yega1979 (Mar 22, 2003)

I've always seen him as a late first round talent and was really confused by drafnicks who had him going in the top 5. He's going to be a backup PF, role-player type guy in the NBA. I say at best he'll be a Jeff Foster type(very good defender).

If we trade into the late first round, I wouldn't mind if we took him.


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## SamOwie (Jun 6, 2007)

Noah is not a make or break player, we'd be better off taking a risk somewhere else.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Noah is a classic example of a "raw" player who's older than his peers and has more limited upside. It was obvious to me this time last year that he didn't have the skills he should have at age 21.

A taller Mark Madsen isn't the worst thing in the world, but mid-first round level seems reasonable.

Ed O.


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## YoYoYoWasup (Nov 14, 2004)

He's just like Mark Madsen... except taller, longer, more athletic, a much better ball handler, a better passer, and a better shot blocker. Asides from that, they're similar.


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## Public Defender (May 5, 2003)

YoYoYoWasup said:


> He's just like Mark Madsen... except taller, longer, more athletic, a much better ball handler, a better passer, and a better shot blocker. Asides from that, they're similar.


Not to mention a better scorer (regardless of their similar college stats - Madsen scored more using strength, while Noah's scoring is a little more varied), and he's got to be a better free-throw shooter, right? 

The thing about the NBA, though, is that how good a player you turn out to be depends a great deal on how much work you put in. Madsen has put in lots of work over the years, and will always be a second-string forward because he'll defend, rebound, deliver hard fouls, and scrap for loose balls. Will Noah outwork his opponents? I don't know. If I were a GM, I'd want to be convinced of a superior work ethic if I were going to take him anywhere above the last few picks of the 1st round.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Ed O said:


> Noah is a classic example of a "raw" player who's older than his peers and has more limited upside. It was obvious to me this time last year that he didn't have the skills he should have at age 21.
> 
> A taller Mark Madsen isn't the worst thing in the world, but mid-first round level seems reasonable.
> 
> Ed O.


would I rather have a taller version of Mark Madsen right now than, say, Travis Outlaw? maybe. 

the thing about Mark Madsen is that he's hung around in the NBA a lot longer than the majority of players picked after #16. if we could trade, say, Webster straight up for a taller version of Madsen, I'd find that a reasonable value.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

mook said:


> would I rather have a taller version of Mark Madsen right now than, say, Travis Outlaw? maybe.
> 
> the thing about Mark Madsen is that he's hung around in the NBA a lot longer than the majority of players picked after #16. if we could trade, say, Webster straight up for a taller version of Madsen, I'd find that a reasonable value.


One of the nice things about Mark Madsen is that it seems really clear he knows he's, well... Mark Madsen. Noah, on the other hand, seems to think he's Patrick Ewing or some such.


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## smeedemann (Jul 16, 2003)

I think a better comparison is Noah to Scot Pollard and think they will have similar NBA careers. Pollard compiled college career averages of 9.4 points, 6.6 rebounds and 1.70 blocks per game, shot better than 50 percent each of his four seasons and had a .549 career field goal percentage.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

mook said:


> would I rather have a taller version of Mark Madsen right now than, say, Travis Outlaw? maybe.
> 
> the thing about Mark Madsen is that he's hung around in the NBA a lot longer than the majority of players picked after #16. if we could trade, say, Webster straight up for a taller version of Madsen, I'd find that a reasonable value.


I don't think I'd deal Webster for a taller Mark Madsen. To me, it's a bit like asking whether you'd rather have a current lottery ticket or a nickel. The nickel is very likely to be worth more, but it's so easy to get a nickel that it's really not worth giving up the possible upside of the lottery ticket to acquire a nickel.

Now, this is obviously a broad analogy, not meant to be a literal mapping. Noah is more valuable than a nickel and Webster is more likely to realize a nice upside than a lottery ticket is. But I think the concept holds. While it's quite likely Noah will have the better NBA career than Webster, it's pretty certain to be a low-impact career. You can get backup-quality role-players fairly easily. It's hard to get players like Webster if he reaches his upside. I don't think it's worth giving up the possible reward for a commodity easily acquired.


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

Pollard had a decent offensive game and subpar speed and mobility. I'd say that's about as different from Noah as you can get.

Dan


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> I don't think I'd deal Webster for a taller Mark Madsen. To me, it's a bit like asking whether you'd rather have a current lottery ticket or a nickel. The nickel is very likely to be worth more, but it's so easy to get a nickel that it's really not worth giving up the possible upside of the lottery ticket to acquire a nickel.
> 
> Now, this is obviously a broad analogy, not meant to be a literal mapping. Noah is more valuable than a nickel and Webster is more likely to realize a nice upside than a lottery ticket is. But I think the concept holds. While it's quite likely Noah will have the better NBA career than Webster, it's pretty certain to be a low-impact career. You can get backup-quality role-players fairly easily. It's hard to get players like Webster if he reaches his upside. I don't think it's worth giving up the possible reward for a commodity easily acquired.


Except that over the last 2 seasons of watching Webster, I have lowered my "best case" upside of him from Glen Rice, to... well haven't thought about it in a while, but something far, far below that career. Do I think Webster has a chance to greatly improve? Yes. Do I think he has anything more than a "lottery" longshot to being a Glen Rice. Nope.


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## Anonymous Gambler (May 29, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> I don't think I'd deal Webster for a taller Mark Madsen. To me, it's a bit like asking whether you'd rather have a current lottery ticket or a nickel. The nickel is very likely to be worth more, but it's so easy to get a nickel that it's really not worth giving up the possible upside of the lottery ticket to acquire a nickel.
> 
> Now, this is obviously a broad analogy, not meant to be a literal mapping. Noah is more valuable than a nickel and Webster is more likely to realize a nice upside than a lottery ticket is. But I think the concept holds. While it's quite likely Noah will have the better NBA career than Webster, it's pretty certain to be a low-impact career. You can get backup-quality role-players fairly easily. It's hard to get players like Webster if he reaches his upside. I don't think it's worth giving up the possible reward for a commodity easily acquired.


I would trade Webster for Noah in a second. While I don't think Noah will be an all star, I think he's very likely to be a really good player and fairly soon. He's got a good motor. 

By contrast, I think it's unlikely that Webster becomes really good. His upside may be higher, but the odds of reaching it are relatively poor.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

webster's upside is george mcloud. noah's upside is a better motor keon clark. i'll take noah easily.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I have always thought Noah was a glorified version of Mikki Moore. Biggest difference would be Mikki has one heck of an offensive game, and Noah is probably a better defender and ball handler. Unfortunately both are rail thin and will be pushed around easily by bigger guys.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Anonymous Gambler said:


> I would trade Webster for Noah in a second. While I don't think Noah will be an all star, I think he's very likely to be a really good player and fairly soon. He's got a good motor.


If I believed Noah would be even a good player (let alone a really good one), I'd trade Webster for him in a second also. I simply don't think he will be and was responding to Wanker's assertion that he would deal Webster for a "taller Mark Madsen."



Masbee said:


> Do I think Webster has a chance to greatly improve? Yes. Do I think he has anything more than a "lottery" longshot to being a Glen Rice. Nope.


He may not have more than an extreme longshot's chance to be Glen Rice, but I think he has a much more reasonable chance to be a more athletic Mike Miller. I wouldn't trade that potential for a taller Mark Madsen. As I said above, if one believes Noah will be significantly more than that, the equation changes. I don't, though.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> He may not have more than an extreme longshot's chance to be Glen Rice, but I think he has a much more reasonable chance to be a more athletic Mike Miller.


i'd be ecstatic if webster turns into miller. i just don't see any resemblings other than the nice shooting stroke and the poor defense (miller at least can play the passing lane well). miller is a good passer, good ball handler, good finisher, can create his own shot, and has good bb IQ.

what has webster done to show you he has anything resembles passing skill? ball handling skill? basketball smarts? i know i hated the webster pick from day 1 so my view maybe slanted, but i honestly haven't seen anything good out of webster other than a nice shooting stroke. even with that, he still shot poorly. he would at least gives me hope if he's very athletic, but to say his athleticism is slightly above average might be a little generous. 

btw, i don't think webster is more athletic than miller. webster has good forward speed, but his lateral quickness is god awful. he also hasn't shown good body control finishing around the basket. iirc, miller paticipated in a HS slam dunk contest or during college. i know another gator, david lee, did. not sure if i'm mixing those two up.


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## furball (Jul 25, 2004)

This coach sounds like an idiot. First of all, anyone who has watched Noah sees that he is an excellent athlete. He also can jump out of the gym. Madsen is a slug who couldn't jump over a Mastercard. They are not even close. I'm not saying Noah is going to be an all star, but comparing him to Madsen is stupid.

The other stupid comment was comparing Kaman and Hawes. Kamen is a rugged inside player that rebounds, blocks shots and has a limited offensive game. Hawes is the complete opposite. He is a very skilled offensive big man that is more of a finesse player. There body styles are similiar, but that is it. There is a reason that teams do not let coaches draft players. They spend all of their time scouting and eating take out while flirting with homely waitresses in Hotel bars. They don't even watch college basketball.


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## Yega1979 (Mar 22, 2003)

Scott Pollard and Mikki Moore? Two players that have had huge nappy hair doos. This proves that people subconciouslly come up with "comparisons" based on a player's looks.


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