# VC to NY in 05-06?



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

According to Hoops Analyst, Houston and Penny for VC, Rose, and Murray would be a realistic deal for VC. Houston and Penny's contracts expire before VC and Rose's do. I don't see it happening this season, but another lost season for Toronto with fans turning on Vince would probably lead them to take the cap room route. There just isn't much demand for Vince anymore. It's either swap him for another guy with a fat contract (Baron or Ray Allen) or go the cap room route like the Suns did with Marbury.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Toronto would want Penny and TT, not Penny and Houston. TT's contract comes off same as Penny's -- a year before Houston's, plus he'll have trade value for them, or they may hope to resign him at a fair price.

But for Houston and Penny they'd be a steal for us. Assuming we don't have Wally that is.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Carter has ALOT to prove this year..The few times i watched him,assuming he was healthy was frightening..never took it to the rack,and every shot was an off balance 25 footer.....

He is obviously mega talented,but he is another one of these guys who seem to be awfully brittle..And talk about a guy who relies on sheer athletisism...


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

truth, I agree Carter played like a shell of his former self, but I think a lot of that was lingering pain and stiffness, and fear of re-injury. Whether those will ever go away for him I don't know. But he has become a pretty good shooter. He doesn't have that pure form, but neither did MJ or Kobe, and I'd still let either one take my last jumper of the game. Anyway, those guys are clutch like Carter ain't, but one of the reasons I'd take Carter now would be to replace Houston, or instead of Wally, to be our perimeter threat. If he can still take it to the rack enough to keep defenders honest, so much the better.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Vince Carter? lets go after somebody better with those two huge expiring contracts.

If Boston has an awful season, then maybe we could land Paul Pierce.

We could probably trade one to the clips for Brand, cause their the clippers.

its interesting how much expiring contracts are worth in the league. we just got to hope teams with a star player have a bad year and decide to go in rebuild mode.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Pierce doesn't want to be traded (just bought a house in Boston), and they look better than Toronto right now. I'd rather have a star that wants to play in NY than one who might not.

Clippers aren't going to deal Brand for the sake of dealing him, they could just as easily get Ray Allen or something they can "market" as the face of the franchise, or youth teases, which the Knicks dont have unless you count Sweetney. They don't need cap room or swingmen with Maggette/Kittles. If they trade Brand they'll struggle to meet NBA salary requirements (30 million or so).


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Just how valuable are expiring contracts? It's not like we got Marbury for McDyess' contract alone, we did have to also take Penny, and give up Lampe and 2 picks. Even the Pistons gave up a 1st rounder to get Rasheed.

We're never gonna be able to just trade an expiring contract straight up for a star. We'll either need to also include our youth or picks or take on more bad contracts in tow. You want Brand? Assuming they want to move him, which they don't, you'd be looking at something like at least Penny, Sweetney and a 1st rounder. maybe a second rounder too. Are we willing to do that?


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

yeah. wouldnt a brand marbury combo be the best duo in the east? and trading a first rounder isnt something new to us. its not like Isiah is a great drafter. besides, we'll always have this years first rounder and ariza.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Assuming they want to move him, which they don't, you'd be looking at something like at least Penny, Sweetney and a 1st rounder. maybe a second rounder too




NO NO NOOOOOO......You heard it here first..If sweets plays 25 min or more,he is a double double...And for those who think I am nuts,its not like he is competing for rebounds with TT,as much as it pains me to say that...Naz is the only other rebounder on the team


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Just how valuable are expiring contracts? It's not like we got Marbury for McDyess' contract alone, we did have to also take Penny, and give up Lampe and 2 picks. Even the Pistons gave up a 1st rounder to get Rasheed.


The Knicks gave up about 20 million in cap room (McDyess and Ward) for Marbury, and more or less swapped Eisley for Penny to make contracts work.



> We're never gonna be able to just trade an expiring contract straight up for a star.


That's why you're trading two expiring contracts instead of 1, and in getting Rose, they're taking on another albatross-like Penny deal to compensate for it. It's not like VC or Rose can be traded for anything of value - that's how the NBA works today. A superstar (McGrady) was traded for an all-star ballhog coming off his worst year and an above average SG. Shaq was traded for 3 people who have yet to make an all-star team. Stars no longer get traded for stars. Who was the last star to get traded for a star? In all likelyhood, it was Kidd for Marbury.



> You want Brand? Assuming they want to move him, which they don't, you'd be looking at something like at least Penny, Sweetney and a 1st rounder. maybe a second rounder too. Are we willing to do that?


I would do that easy. Brand > Sweetney, and Penny is excess right now. Will he even get 20 mpg this year?


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

yeah he'll get around 15 mins backing up tim, and about 5 at shooting guard when crawford plays backup point. but penny is expendable, and i would definitely make that trade. 20 minutes of shandon wouldnt kill us. hes good off the bench as long as he doesnt shoot jumpers

sweetney will never be as good as elton brand. Brand is way better on the offensive and defensive end, and was 20 and 10 since his rookie year. Sweetney hasnt shown any legit post moves his first year to prove he could do that. his offensive game isnt that good really.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

The question wasn't is Brand better than Sweeteny, or can we afford to give up Penny. The question was is it wise to trade an inexpensive young guy with potential PLUS a 1st and 2nd rounder, to fill a position we aren't particularly weak at? IOW, would Brand be the best use of those assets?

I like Brand, but he's not a center, and he's not KG or Duncan. We have KT, Sweets, Nazr, Baker. How much more production will we realistically get form that position from Brand?


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> The Knicks gave up about 20 million in cap room (McDyess and Ward) for Marbury, and more or less swapped Eisley for Penny to make contracts work.


I understand the theory, you've heard me argue for it before. But you are leaving out Lampe and two first round picks. Does that deal go down without them? To pick up another mid-level star do we need to give up Sweetney and 2 first round picks again?

Lets cut to the chase on this. Rashidi, you are the residing board historian: how many stars have been traded straight up for expiring contracts?

The closest I could come was Sheed, and he took a 1st round pick too.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> The Knicks gave up about 20 million in cap room (McDyess and Ward) for Marbury,


rashidi,if i am not mistaken we are so far over the cap,it doesnt matter that we gave up 20 million.i dont think we could have utilised it until our ridiculous signings of the past are done..Aka H20,shandone etc....

You seem to think that cap space was valuable..Its NOT at the current time..After 2006-2007 it will be

correct me if i am wrong....


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Sweetney hasnt shown any legit post moves his first year to prove he could do that. his offensive game isnt that good really.


Penny,I thoght like you,until one game i saw sweetney take one dribble,do a full spin and take it to the rim..he missed the shot,but i was shocked how athletic he looked.....

And for all you CAP SPACE fans,signing Elton and giving up Sweetney means 4 extra years of big bucks..Plus,the number 1.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> And for all you CAP SPACE fans,signing Elton and giving up Sweetney means 4 extra years of big bucks..Plus,the number 1.


Similar to giving up Lampe and 4 extra years of big bucks?

The Knicks have chosen their path once and for all, and there's no turning back if this team wants to win a championship within the next decade or so.

Sweetney is a nice player and all, and might average a double double, but Brand has been 20/10 since the moment he entered the league.



> rashidi,if i am not mistaken we are so far over the cap,it doesnt matter that we gave up 20 million.


Then why are you contradicting yourself in your pleas to keep Sweetney?



> I understand the theory, you've heard me argue for it before. But you are leaving out Lampe and two first round picks. Does that deal go down without them? To pick up another mid-level star do we need to give up Sweetney and 2 first round picks again?
> 
> Lets cut to the chase on this. Rashidi, you are the residing board historian: how many stars have been traded straight up for expiring contracts?
> 
> The closest I could come was Sheed, and he took a 1st round pick too.


Picks seem to be the main piece of value to the team trading the star. However, you can't trade picks for stars straight up, thats where expiring contracts come in. The Knicks can't trade this summer's first round pick, but they CAN trade next summer's pick assuming that it doesn't meet the qualifications for Phoenix to pluck it.

Dampier trade
Dallas gets: Dampier (7 years, 67m) and Eschmeyer (3 years, 10m)
Warriors get: Laettner (1 year, 5m), Najera (4 years, 17m), and two 1st rounders.

Crawford trade
NY gets: Crawford (7 years, 55m), Jerome Williams (4 years, 25 m)
Chicago gets: Mutombo (1 year, 4.5m) (Harrington (1 year, 3m), Frank Williams (1 year, 0.9m, team option for 2nd yr), Trybanski (1 year, 1.7m)

Payton trade
Boston gets: Payton (1 year, 5.4m), Fox (1 year, 4.9m), one 1st rounder
LA gets: Mihm (3 years, 11m), Atkins (2 years, 8.7m), Jones (2 years, 3.5m)

Walker trade
Atlanta gets: Walker (1 year, 14.6m), Delk (2 years, 6.4 m)
Dallas gets: Terry (2 years, 14.7m), Hendersen (1 year, 8m), one 1st rounder

Those are all the notable trades I have time to look up right now.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

First off stop being so DRAMATIC:yes: 



> The Knicks have chosen their path once and for all, and there's no turning back if this team wants to win a championship within the next decade or so


Where did that come from??10 years??



> Similar to giving up Lampe and 4 extra years of big bucks?[/QUOTE
> 
> You really do not get it,do you??
> You know who #$%^ED the Knicks when he outbid himself and overpayed H2o,brought in Eisly and Shandone and to top it off brought in Dyss..That is what KILLED us..
> ...


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

isiah thomas once said that knick fans dont care about a salary cap, they care about winning.

that means hes not gonna wait for contracts to expire. whether we like it or not, hes gonna trade those expring deals. 

hes just doing the same crap layden did, its all Mr Dolans doing. we wont ever get under the cap, we'll probably end up trading houstons deal too if he doesnt retire first.

just like you said, marburys way better then ward and eisley...but Brand is ten times better then any power forward we have and would make us a top team in the east. id rather make the trade then play the waiting game with Sweetney. Houstons not getting any younger and i think were gonna need him if were gonna win anytime soon. id rather win sooner then later, considering the circumstances


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I don't know what Isiah's gonna do, I only know what I'd do.

I wanted the Knicks to fire Layden, blow up the team, dump salary where possible, play the lottery. That they fired Layden and traded for Marbury was satisfactory enough, and on those occasions when our offense still stagnates, and Marbury chucks, I sometimes wish we had rebuilt. But I accept he is our fate, and I endorsed it, and there is plenty of room for he and this team to grow and improve. 

Now we make the best of it, but how? 

I'm still not convinced that winning now "at all costs" is warranted. And I'm not convinced, as some are, that Isiah would sell his soul and the soul of the franchise, just to see his name in the papers. I don't know what the hell happened with him in Toronto - I'd love to get a full account of it sometime - best I can tell he abandoned ship when he realized the owners where not committed to putting up the funds to win as he was promised. Is that reckless? Would Thorn be reckless if he didn't re-up with the Nets? 

My only point in this is he certainly didn't kill their franchise, he drafted well and got them off to a good start. Then he served under Donny Walsh in Indiana. together they retooled on the fly quite effectively and responsibly. Nobody thinks he learned a thing or two from that experience? Isiah was credited with playing a large roll in player selection, and certainly in player development. Carlisle may have been a coaching upgrade, but he benefited by the foundation Isiah laid for him.

He's also watched his good friend Joe Dumars take his time to incrementally improve his club over 4 years with relatively inexpensive players, patiently biding his time until a great last minute crowning opportunity presented itself in Rasheed. The Pistons were the 3rd best team in the east until Rasheed came along, and Rasheed arguably made them the best. But had Rasheed not fell in their lap I believe Dumars would have let those expiring contracts expire rather than make *some/any* desperate move to improve.

From a talent and ranking standpoint Isiah has arguably already put himself in the position that Dumars put himself into pre-Sheed. 3rd in the East, poised to exploit an opportunity, but not desperate. Where he hasn't caught up with Dumars yet is the teams finances relative to the cap. That will take some time.

This is just a long preamble to say that I would be responsible with those $70M in contracts which expire by '07, and I expect Isiah to be so too. By this I mean if the best opportunity is represented by picking up a real star we do it. If that doesn't present itself we see if we can get some youth or picks. If that doesn't present itself we let them just drop off the books. Presumably we'll do a little bit of each.

Yes we have a somewhat limited window of opportunity with Marbury, but I'm not convinced he's a guy you live or die by. If you can get a Brand or better I suppose you do it, but I'm more interested in building a deep team of value oriented contracts like West has done in Memphis (until this off-season anyway). That way if we decide to change course we can either trade Marbury for equal talent, or for expiring contracts to make a plunge beneath the cap.

I'm not fixated on getting under the cap, but I would like to get within like 20M of it while holding desirable contracts so that should we ever chose to take the plunge it's conceivable we could easily move some contracts to make it so. Some people say "$2M over the cap is the same as $60M over the cap, they're both over the cap." But while that may be true for one given summer they're very different relative to succeeding summers.

Lets just keep signing guys like Crawford for 7M per, and re-sign TT for 7M per, and give Sweets a shot, and leave the max players alone for a while. Lets play some good ball, let the team gel and work itself into competitive form, draft a few more kids, and get the finances right in the process. Then when the payroll is around 60M or so we can see how adventurous we want to get again.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I agree...

Zeke is doing exactly what i would considering the dye was cast long before he got here...

The Knicks were a horrific boring squad before Zeke got here and to top it off they were totally lifeless, like the GM..

Zeke is putting a competitive team on the floor NOW,knowing full well 2007 cap space will be cleared.Signing young guys like JC to 7 per is very smart,considering we paid max money to an aging Alan Houston...The marbury trade,whether you like it or not was a shrewd deal for the Knicks (as well as the Suns).. both got what we needed..

Clearly the mandate is to be competitive and somewaht fiscally responsible long term.That means any long term signings should be young guys who will still be in their prime after 2007.Brand would fit that bill,but why the urgency??

Sweetney just may be a double double and he comes verrrry cheap.When was the last time we said that about a knick???


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## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

to agree and elaborate--if Sweets pans out then we have 28 and unders who are solid to near-great at the 1 (Steph) 2 (Jamal) 3 (TT) and 4 (Sweets); unfortunately, bc all 4 of those spots cluster more towards the pretty good than the great, it's not enough, bc they're too expensive to allow for a Memphis style bench and rotation and no one of them is consistently game changing. until we see just how well the 3 guard alignment stretches defense and what it does for Nazr/Sweets on the block and KT from short range, well, we won't know anything about what we need other than a 20/10 allstar center in his early 20s, like everyone else in the league just about. 2007 seems like a yr to really keep an eye on because, among other things, I think Lebron will be ready for a larger stage than Cleveland, regardless of homestate love. ANd you know that THAT is what IT wants more than anything--to take a seasoned LB and COACH him to NYC's first championship in a quarter century.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Oh, Pennyyy....*

I am not sure where you get off saying that Sweetney is not as good as Brand offensively.. I watched Sweets in college and while I am not attempting to translate that directly to the NBA, I will say this. The guy is immensely talented offensively. If you have seen him only as a Knick then you really have not seen anything close to what he can do. He was very, very good in D1 in a very tough conference. Better than Brand was. He is like Brand in that they are built alike and both have very long arms for their height. MS may run the floor better and for sure has better hands (nothing against EB, but MS has GREAT hands). Given the offensive opportunities, he is most definitely a 20/12 guy. For me, the only question is how he guards people.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

ALFA...ALFA.. 



> Given the offensive opportunities, he is most definitely a 20/12 guy. For me, the only question is how he guards people


I agree with you,but I doubt he will get the offensive touches..I was never a Swetney fan as I was shocked at his conditioning and strength..But after reading about his "depression" after his pop died,I understood where he was coming from...

I became a believer due to two things...I was watching the Piston game,and the guy was a BEAST..against none other than Big Ben.What shocked me is he actually out hustled Ben and beat him to rebounds on several occasions..

He also had one move where he spun from the foul lane and went stong to the hole with more quickness than i ever gave him credit for...

I really like Brand...But not with Sweetney,Williams,Baker and Kt on the squad..


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I remember that spin move. I think he did one in summer league too. He's definitely deceptive in his agility. His shot didn't go in that much last year but you could tell he had a soft touch, and those great hands. He needs playing time to put it all together but there is a lot to work with.

I can't wait till the end of the season, when he's really slimmed down. He may be built like Mason in a couple of years.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i seen sweetney in college. i was at the nit championship. 

so Marcus Camby should be averaging 20 and 10 as well. And all those white stiffs in the nba would be scoring 20 and 10 like they did in college. Chris mihm would be the man. Mike was bigger, stronger, more dominant in college. the nba in completely different

Mike sweetney will never be as good as elton brand.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Mike sweetney will never be as good as elton brand.


Let me ask you this....If he plays half the amount as brand,shoots half as much,but has a higher shooting percentage and more rebounds per 48 minutes,who is the better player???

Camby is a great rebounder,but he will never score much cause he isnt the focal point of the offense..much like sweetney


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

just cause he does well in 5 minutes a game, does not mean in 30 minutes hes gonna be producing at the same rate.

Did you watch Sweetney in summerleague? He didnt look so amazing on offense, regardless of how many points he scored, it was all ugly. he didnt have the post moves. he just relied on his body and height to score on his defenders. Real NBA players dont suck that bad.

i think sweetney is at best a 14,10 guy. Not 20 and 10 like brand. Theres no doubt hes a great rebounder, but i dont think hes offensively as good as Elton.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Penny,I think so too....Probably 12 and 9,but in a much different way than KT gets his 12 and 9..The real question is can he be an effective low post guy to work an inside out game...

And he still has to get in better shape


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## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

I think Sweetney has the skills to be as good as Brand. IMO he wont reach that level. Brand produced right away. Sweetney did not. I still think Sweets is going to be a good player. He's an above average shot blocker, he likes to play in the post and has great post moves and he is an underrated athlete. Sounds like a Brand clone.

I can still remember the Georgetown-Cuse game. Melo vs Sweetney. What a game. I think Sweets was like 30/15/5/5. Something rediculous like that.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

I doubt


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

i dont think that the raps want to take on injury based guys but after all they do have VC


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> According to Hoops Analyst, Houston and Penny for VC, Rose, and Murray would be a realistic deal for VC.


:laugh: 
No way Toronto even considers this trade
wouldn't have doubted Zeke offering this trade, but T.O's new GM Rob Babcock isn't that stupid


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

..but he drafted the bust of the year Rafael Araujo, gave a player Vince Carter hates a huge long contract, who also isnt even worth that contract.....

i thought raptor fans didnt like the guy.

that trade is stupid though.


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