# Balkman Was Very Impressive



## USSKittyHawk

Balkman looked great in his first professional pre-season game against the Nets. He chalked up 11 points and had 7 rebounds in 16 minutes of action. You think this kid can crack the rotation? If he continues to hustle that will be a tough decision for Isiah to make. I love the fact that Zeke teamed him up with Lee to clean up the glass. I was down on this guy being drafted before Wiliams but it appears to me that is the type of player we "need".


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## knicksfan

I hated the Mardy pick more than the Balk pick. I hated both, but w/e.


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## USSKittyHawk

knicksfan said:


> I hated the Mardy pick more than the Balk pick. I hated both, but w/e.


Remember I had a tantrum when I was talking to you on AIM about that Balkman pick? :laugh:


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## alphadog

*Balkman is a great fit....*

But we would have been better off drafting Marcus Williams in his spot and then drafting Balkman in Collin's place. Make no mistake.....Balkman would have been there. Although I questioned Williams character, the guy is a helluva player.


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Balkman is a great fit....*



alphadog said:


> But we would have been better off drafting Marcus Williams in his spot and then drafting Balkman in Collin's place. Make no mistake.....Balkman would have been there. Although I questioned Williams character, the guy is a helluva player.


why are people so sure balkman would be around to 29 ?

when i watch him play 20th pick seems about right , so its not his game , and there are a number of teams who drafted between 20 and 29 who could use him .

the cavs , lakers and especially the nets who back up 3's at this point are hassan adams and boston nachbar....and of course there is the suns who were said to like him and had 2 picks between 20 and 29 until they traded them moment balkman was drafted.

marcus williams looks like a player, but i dont trust him , and his character is a big reason why , how much success is he going to have when on the day his body was going to be most scrutinized he came in at 14% body ...about double the avg. pg.

until i see different he is a guy who is talented but a likely flop with time.


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## ChosenFEW

*Re: Balkman is a great fit....*

it looked like he was a little bit eager to score too....


i thought he didnt care about scoring....we need him for defense and rebounds.....i dont want to see him cracking 10+ points a game.....if we need 10 points from balkman we're screwed


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## HB

If you can have both him, Nate and Lee on the court together, it will provide your team with lots of energy and scrappy players of the bench.


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## Gotham2krazy

*Re: Balkman is a great fit....*

You already know Balkman's cracked the rotation, he was playing point towards the end of the game before the last minute or two. He's got Isiah's trust. Who said this wasn't good? Who said he couldn't shoot a 3? While Mardy had some garbage time, I loved it when he was handling the ball, especially his sick alley oop pass.


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## Real

*Re: Balkman is a great fit....*



Da Grinch said:


> why are people so sure balkman would be around to 29 ?
> 
> when i watch him play 20th pick seems about right , so its not his game , and there are a number of teams who drafted between 20 and 29 who could use him .
> 
> the cavs , lakers and especially the nets who back up 3's at this point are hassan adams and boston nachbar....and of course there is the suns who were said to like him and had 2 picks between 20 and 29 until they traded them moment balkman was drafted.


Beacuse he was regarded as a second round/undrafted pick. If the Cavs and Lakers wanted them so bad they would have taken him with their second round picks. Draftexpress and NBADraft.net didn't even have his name in the mock drafts. Jay Bilas was shocked that the Knicks took him over Marcus.

The Suns thing is completely wrong, because the Suns publically announced their intent to trade their picks in the mid 10's. 

The Nets needed a backup point gaurd, and a shot-blocking oriented pf/c before they needed wings. They got both. They also got Hassan Adams, who _was _regarded as a first round pick before his bad senior season. I can assure you Renaldo wasn't on their radar for the first round. 

The Knicks could have had Marcus Williams and Renaldo Balkman at 29, which would have turned out to be another great draft for Isiah. It would have also been great in improving is image after last year.



> marcus williams looks like a player, but i dont trust him , and his character is a big reason why , how much success is he going to have when on the day his body was going to be most scrutinized he came in at 14% body ...about double the avg. pg.


But he lost the weight, one of the ways he showed that when he blew by Marbury with his off-hand on his way to an easy layup. 

He has had no problems with his character in his short tenure. Part of that is because that when you're in one of the best positions of any rookie in the NBA, you'd have to be a complete moron to screw it up. He isn't a complete jerk because he was arrested for something stupid. I think that was the turning point, that as well has having his mother live with him and several teams passing him up in the draft. 



> until i see different he is a guy who is talented but a likely flop with time.


He out performed Marbury last night with 21 points and seven assists. Marbury had sixteen points and no assists. He also had seven assists against the Pacers despite having a god-awful shooting night. That should be different from what you've heard in the media even if it is preseason.

Now, in my mind, Renaldo Balkman will turn out to be a very good player. I love the guy's game. He does everything neccesary to win. I especailly loved the play when Lee tipped it over to Balkman for the easy layup. I think the Knicks should play him, because he will do everything neccesary to win out on the floor, and that is exactly what the Knicks need. 

If you look at his MVP NIT performance, 9.6 points, 6.3 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 1.7 steals and 1.3 blocks per game. A do-it-all hustle player that knows how to sacrifice for the good of the team, that's very promising.

Although I think that selecting him at 20 was a completely bad move, I would take him on the Nets. Absolutely.


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## USSKittyHawk

Great you see what you did Grinch? Now this thread is going to be about Marcus Williams.  Let's keep this thread about Balkman's impressive play please. Unless of course you post pics of Marcus Williams then I may over look this thread hijack. :biggrin:


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## Real

Kitty said:


> Great you see what you did Grinch? Now this thread is going to be about Marcus Williams.  Let's keep this thread about Balkman's impressive play please. *Unless of course you post pics of Marcus Williams then I may over look this thread hijack.* :biggrin:


Hmm..fair enough..


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## BG7

Yeah, I don't think the Suns wanted him. Suns wanted Thabo Sefolosha or Saer Sene...


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## USSKittyHawk

:rofl: Ok guys continue....:drool:


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Balkman is a great fit....*



Real said:


> Beacuse he was regarded as a second round/undrafted pick. If the Cavs and Lakers wanted them so bad they would have taken him with their second round picks. Draftexpress and NBADraft.net didn't even have his name in the mock drafts. Jay Bilas was shocked that the Knicks took him over Marcus.
> 
> The Suns thing is completely wrong, because the Suns publically announced their intent to trade their picks in the mid 10's.
> 
> The Nets needed a backup point gaurd, and a shot-blocking oriented pf/c before they needed wings. They got both. They also got Hassan Adams, who _was _regarded as a first round pick before his bad senior season. I can assure you Renaldo wasn't on their radar for the first round.
> 
> The Knicks could have had Marcus Williams and Renaldo Balkman at 29, which would have turned out to be another great draft for Isiah. It would have also been great in improving is image after last year.
> 
> 
> 
> But he lost the weight, one of the ways he showed that when he blew by Marbury with his off-hand on his way to an easy layup.
> 
> He has had no problems with his character in his short tenure. Part of that is because that when you're in one of the best positions of any rookie in the NBA, you'd have to be a complete moron to screw it up. He isn't a complete jerk because he was arrested for something stupid. I think that was the turning point, that as well has having his mother live with him and several teams passing him up in the draft.
> 
> 
> 
> He out performed Marbury last night with 21 points and seven assists. Marbury had sixteen points and no assists. He also had seven assists against the Pacers despite having a god-awful shooting night. That should be different from what you've heard in the media even if it is preseason.
> 
> Now, in my mind, Renaldo Balkman will turn out to be a very good player. I love the guy's game. He does everything neccesary to win. I especailly loved the play when Lee tipped it over to Balkman for the easy layup. I think the Knicks should play him, because he will do everything neccesary to win out on the floor, and that is exactly what the Knicks need.
> 
> If you look at his MVP NIT performance, 9.6 points, 6.3 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 1.7 steals and 1.3 blocks per game. A do-it-all hustle player that knows how to sacrifice for the good of the team, that's very promising.
> 
> Although I think that selecting him at 20 was a completely bad move, I would take him on the Nets. Absolutely.


1st i'll start by addressing some of the errors in your post. 

the suns traded a pick to the nets while in the teens ...they traded the other 1st round pick before the nets selected marcus williams...but after the knicks selected balkman.

you speak as if jay bilas knows what he's talking about .

last year he mocked the raptors for picking Charlie V at 7 ...and the year be4 josh smith at 17 , he said both would be busts ...he doesn't know anything more than any1 else who follows the draft.

in fact when told that balkman reminded Zeke of rodman His stupid response was that Rodman was a 2nd rounder ...forgetting of course that if the draft were to be redone with hindsight rodman could have been the 1st overall but definitely top 5(86 was one of the worst drafts ever). Greg Anthony had to remind him of that Rodman would have been a lotto pick if they knew what he was to become.

his logic is whacky.

the nets had vaughn at pg nachbar at small forward and cliff robinson as a big man at draftime .

1 player is far worse than the other 2 and that guy is nachbar...the other 2 are capable backups and can hold the fort for a year at their spot if need be.....do you have that belief in boston holding down the 3 this year ?...i doubt it unless you are a blood relative.

as for marcus williams draft pudits said at 1 point he was a top 5 pick ...top 8 for sure ...rudy gay was a top 3 talent ...no way he goes past #6 . they go 22nd and 8th, 

they aren't making the picks , they really dont know as much as they pretend to...if they did they would have known thats who brown wanted and apparently IT as well, they didn't have a clue , thats why they were shocked.

williams didn't outperform marbury for 1, if marbury had played as many minutes as williams he would have outscored him (16 in 22 put him on pace for 23 in 32 minutes ...the amount williams played), and the nets as a team were shooting at a far lower % than the knicks so he wasn't running the offense as well assist #s or not, the knicks were clicking better on offense while they both were on the floor(the other nets starters shot 9-30, the other knicks starters 10-20)....williams just had better #s...by that logic i could go back and show you marbury's stats vs. the nets the last 2 years and compare them to kidd's, I assure you marbury has the edge by a significant margin ...but the nets won most of the games...and kidd's team did better than marbur's when they were on the court together....according to your logic marbury is the 1 who won the battle.

and about williams i agree he has done well and can play but i question his dedication over the long haul, come back in 3 or 4 years and we'll see who is right , if i'm wrong more power to him, but i usually peg people right. but there were reasons why he fell, and they were valid, none of them were on the court issues every1 thinks he can play.

remember what they used to say about qyntel woods how he could be another tmac , but he was such an idiot/bad guy he slipped into the mid 20's in his draft ...history has shown the gm's were right on passing on him...but there are just as many success stories as failures time will tell if williams' percieved demons will win out or not.

balkman to me is easily talented enough to be selected 20 and that all that really matters . i am not going to be so sure that all these general managers in the late 20's (where all the winning teams are picking) missed the boat on balkman when not even i did. i dont understand why people seem so sure of this, it doesn't make sense. and i agree with you his game is a perfect fit with the knicks roster ...so why the surprise IT jumped on him, he is the kind of player good teams always select late in the 1st round and they are called steals ...when in fact they were probably drafted too late considering how much they contribute to their teams.

according to the "draft sites " chris taft was a possible lotto pick and slid to the 40's and according to draft express alex johnson was a mid teens pick (i beleive draftexpress.com had him going to the hornets at 15) and he went 45th.

what do they really know? they do some research , they talk to people but if you honestly believe these GM's & VP's are telling these "sites" everything i think you are just wrong.

they dont even tell bilas everything if they did he wouldn't have been shocked , the draft heads would have had some good info on him , instead they were left scrambling and confused, that in itself should say something about their knowledge on the subject.


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## Da Grinch

Kitty said:


> Great you see what you did Grinch? Now this thread is going to be about Marcus Williams.  Let's keep this thread about Balkman's impressive play please. Unless of course you post pics of Marcus Williams then I may over look this thread hijack. :biggrin:


dont worry kitty the knicks play 2nite and then there will be more balkman stuff to talk about.


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## Mogriffjr

Marbury wasn't even running point in hindsight...they were playing him like a SG...and he was drilling the mid range jumper off of screens. 

As for Balkman, he showed a lot of energy and he played to the crowd. He's going to be a Knick favorite, like nate is as well. Balkman has his hands on everything on the court and he'll keep a ton of loose balls going with his length. He plays defense, he works hard in general. Plus he showed some ball-handling bringing the ball up the court on a few occassions and he showed his versatility, hitting a 3 from the corner...he was exciting to watch.

And for Marcus, listen...he was the best PG playing on the court last night.


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## Real

*Re: Balkman is a great fit....*



Da Grinch said:


> 1st i'll start by addressing some of the errors in your post.
> 
> *the suns traded a pick to the nets while in the teens* ...they traded the other 1st round pick before the nets selected marcus williams...but after the knicks selected balkman.


What? Did I miss something?

And according to Dan Zink, the blogger for the Knicks at NJ.com, this was the case:




> After selecting Balkman, Thomas originally claimed that the Suns were ready to snap him up; it turned out that the Suns had pubilicly announced that they were trading their 21st and 27th picks after the 16th selection. Forced to choose between admitting that he lied and admitting that the Suns outmaneuvered him, he was forced to beckpedal and refuse to answer any more questions on the topic.


 



> you speak as if jay bilas knows what he's talking about .
> 
> last year he mocked the raptors for picking Charlie V at 7 ...and the year be4 josh smith at 17 , he said both would be busts ...he doesn't know anything more than any1 else who follows the draft.
> 
> in fact when told that balkman reminded Zeke of rodman His stupid response was that Rodman was a 2nd rounder ...forgetting of course that if the draft were to be redone with hindsight rodman could have been the 1st overall but definitely top 5(86 was one of the worst drafts ever). Greg Anthony had to remind him of that Rodman would have been a lotto pick if they knew what he was to become.
> 
> his logic is whacky.


He's not right all the time, but he wasn't the only one. Greg Anthony questioned the pick and Stephen A. was in shock as well. One of those players was a former Knick, the other a lifelong Knick fan.

He's a second round draft pick, period. Not no. 20, second round. He wasn't even in the media guide for the top prospects in the NBA draft expected to be drafted.

Hell, Renaldo himself said he spilled his food on the floor. He was shocked, and he had good reason.



> the nets had vaughn at pg nachbar at small forward and cliff robinson as a big man at draftime .
> 
> 1 player is far worse than the other 2 and that guy is nachbar...the other 2 are capable backups and can hold the fort for a year at their spot if need be.....do you have that belief in boston holding down the 3 this year ?...i doubt it unless you are a blood relative.


Jacque Vaughn is not a capable backup. That's why he's not on the team anymore. That's why they drafted Marcus Williams, because they did not have a quality backup at the point.

Nachbar is not terrible. He is athletic and has shooting ability. I don't know what he is going to do, but he isn't terrible.

Boston is not going to draft Renaldo Balkman, because they could get him at 49! Again. Why can't you draft Marcus Williams, and if you're really like him, draft Balkman at 29? 



> as for marcus williams draft pudits said at 1 point he was a top 5 pick ...top 8 for sure ...rudy gay was a top 3 talent ...no way he goes past #6 . they go 22nd and 8th,
> 
> they aren't making the picks , they really dont know as much as they pretend to...if they did they would have known thats who brown wanted and apparently IT as well, they didn't have a clue , thats why they were shocked.


Again, see above.



> williams didn't outperform marbury for 1, if marbury had played as many minutes as williams he would have outscored him (16 in 22 put him on pace for 23 in 32 minutes ...the amount williams played), and the nets as a team were shooting at a far lower % than the knicks so he wasn't running the offense as well assist #s or not, the knicks were clicking better on offense while they both were on the floor(the other nets starters shot 9-30, the other knicks starters 10-20)....williams just had better #s...by that logic i could go back and show you marbury's stats vs. the nets the last 2 years and compare them to kidd's, I assure you marbury has the edge by a significant margin ...but the nets won most of the games...and kidd's team did better than marbur's when they were on the court together....according to your logic marbury is the 1 who won the battle.


Stats are not everything, however. Marcus Williams showed great poise in his first starting assignment in the NBA. 21 points and seven assists, while running the O. Marbury had 16 points, and no assists. How many assists, was he on pace for? Why didn't he look for Frye downlow? When you have so many guys on the floor like Francis, Richardson, Frye, etc, that can score, why didn't he at least get one assist? Why didn't he limit Marcus' stats?

Like I said, it's preseason, it doesn't matter,but still, 16 points and no assists? He needs to get the others more involved if he's going to play the point for the Knicks to win. I think you would agree.



> and about williams i agree he has done well and can play but i question his dedication over the long haul, come back in 3 or 4 years and we'll see who is right , if i'm wrong more power to him, but i usually peg people right. but there were reasons why he fell, and they were valid, none of them were on the court issues every1 thinks he can play.


He had the dedication to come into training camp in shape, he had the dedication to get better over the years in college. I don't question his dedication, I question his defense. That's what I'm concerned about. 

He basically fell because of the computer charges and the body fat. He pleaded guilty, accepted responsibility, and moved on. He came into camp in shape and showed it last night.



> remember what they used to say about qyntel woods how he could be another tmac , but he was such an idiot/bad guy he slipped into the mid 20's in his draft ...history has shown the gm's were right on passing on him...but there are just as many success stories as failures time will tell if williams' percieved demons will win out or not.


But Qyntel Woods didn't have the division 1 pedigree of playing and excelling in the best College conference in America. 

Qyntel Woods also was an *******. He wasn't even close to being the next T-Mac. He had been caught with marijuana, and driving without insurance. He was found part in a ring that operates fighting dogs. I don't know if you can get any lower than that as a human being.



> balkman to me is easily talented enough to be selected 20 and that all that really matters . i am not going to be so sure that all these general managers in the late 20's (where all the winning teams are picking) missed the boat on balkman when not even i did. i dont understand why people seem so sure of this, it doesn't make sense. and i agree with you his game is a perfect fit with the knicks roster ...so why the surprise IT jumped on him, he is the kind of player good teams always select late in the 1st round and they are called steals ...when in fact they were probably drafted too late considering how much they contribute to their teams.
> 
> according to the "draft sites " chris taft was a possible lotto pick and slid to the 40's and according to draft express alex johnson was a mid teens pick (i beleive draftexpress.com had him going to the hornets at 15) and he went 45th.
> 
> what do they really know? they do some research , they talk to people but if you honestly believe these GM's & VP's are telling these "sites" everything i think you are just wrong.
> 
> they dont even tell bilas everything if they did he wouldn't have been shocked , the draft heads would have had some good info on him , instead they were left scrambling and confused, that in itself should say something about their knowledge on the subject.


I never said these guys were right, but like I said, he was picked way too high. 29? Not completely crazy. 20? Too high. The Knicks could have had both Williams and Balkman if they wanted. They had the opportunity to prevent their rival across the river from getting better. They didn't. That's why I disagree with the pick at 20. 

But forget about Marcus Williams and the Nets for a second.

Do I like Balkman? Yes. I love his game. He's a perfect fit. He will get rotation minutes, because Isiah knows how to utilize him, and he kind of needs to utilize him, to save his own ***. I think he will do well his rookie year.


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Balkman is a great fit....*



Real said:


> What? Did I miss something?
> 
> And according to Dan Zink, the blogger for the Knicks at NJ.com, this was the case:


yes you missed something.

"The guy we wanted coming into the draft was Balkman," said Thomas, who was looking for defense heading into his first season as both coach and team president. "He specifically fits the need we have right now. When you look at his motor and his engine and how he plays and the intensity he plays with, that's exactly what we needed."

The Knicks then took Temple point guard Mardy Collins with the 29th pick.

To help introduce Balkman to the media, the Knicks played a highlight-filled DVD.

Naturally, the hyperactive forward didn't miss a shot.

Because Thomas believed the Phoenix Suns were also chasing the high-energy defender, he used the 20th pick on Balkman.

The Suns were next on the clock and immediately dealt their pick.

"Balkman is a very unique talent, a very unique player," Thomas said. "He reminds me a lot of a (Dennis) Rodman or a (Ron) Artest type of player with his defensive ability.

"I thought if we went with Collins first, Balkman wouldn't have been there at 29," Thomas said. "If Collins would have went off the board, we did have a backup. We assured ourselves of getting one player, but we came out of it with two."


http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060629/SPORTS01/606290341/1108



> Thomas revealed that the Suns were intent on taking Balkman with the 21st pick only to trade out of the first round when Thomas nabbed the forward first. That didn't stop ESPN analyst Jay Bilas from calling the selection a "stunner" and saying that Balkman was a "second-round draft pick."


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/430976p-363295c.html

so yeah you got that one wrong and so did your blogger



> He's not right all the time, but he wasn't the only one. Greg Anthony questioned the pick and Stephen A. was in shock as well. One of those players was a former Knick, the other a lifelong Knick fan.


and both Steven A. and Anthony have come around since then. 



> He's a second round draft pick, period. Not no. 20, second round. He wasn't even in the media guide for the top prospects in the NBA draft expected to be drafted.
> 
> Hell, Renaldo himself said he spilled his food on the floor. He was shocked, and he had good reason.


they got it wrong they get stuff wrong every year for instance if they knew williams was going in the 20's he would not have been invited to the green room on draft night...and every year there is always a guy or 2 who are in the green room long after every1 else was drafted from there .





> Jacque Vaughn is not a capable backup. That's why he's not on the team anymore. That's why they drafted Marcus Williams, because they did not have a quality backup at the point.


he's so horrible he's on the spurs now , who are known for aquiring people who cant play ....vaughn wasn't so bad they didn't jump on him months ago.



> Nachbar is not terrible. He is athletic and has shooting ability. I don't know what he is going to do, but he isn't terrible.


this is his 5th year , he has a career shooting % of .374...last season he shot .346 fg .268 3pt and .682 from the line , i dont he still qualifies as a shooter...and he's no rjeff in athleticism...what athletic small forward is he more athletic then ? what shooter does he shoot better than?



> Boston is not going to draft Renaldo Balkman, because they could get him at 49! Again. Why can't you draft Marcus Williams, and if you're really like him, draft Balkman at 29?


how can they get balkman if the knicks weren't going to let him out the 1st round no matter what? that doesn't make any sense .









> Stats are not everything, however. Marcus Williams showed great poise in his first starting assignment in the NBA. 21 points and seven assists, while running the O. Marbury had 16 points, and no assists. How many assists, was he on pace for? Why didn't he look for Frye downlow? When you have so many guys on the floor like Francis, Richardson, Frye, etc, that can score, why didn't he at least get one assist? Why didn't he limit Marcus' stats?



marbury didn't have to limit anything the the knicks were winning every moment he left the floor, and btw francis was mostly the pg when they were on the floor 2gether



> Like I said, it's preseason, it doesn't matter,but still, 16 points and no assists? He needs to get the others more involved if he's going to play the point for the Knicks to win. I think you would agree.


once again francis was usually the pg when they were on the floor 2gether.




> He had the dedication to come into training camp in shape, he had the dedication to get better over the years in college. I don't question his dedication, I question his defense. That's what I'm concerned about.
> 
> He basically fell because of the computer charges and the body fat. He pleaded guilty, accepted responsibility, and moved on. He came into camp in shape and showed it last night.


why didn't he have this dedication before the draft?

no one has ever given me a good reason for that?





> But Qyntel Woods didn't have the division 1 pedigree of playing and excelling in the best College conference in America.


, neither does Kobe who would you rather have?







> I never said these guys were right, but like I said, he was picked way too high. 29? Not completely crazy. 20? Too high. The Knicks could have had both Williams and Balkman if they wanted. They had the opportunity to prevent their rival across the river from getting better. They didn't. That's why I disagree with the pick at 20.


really how do you really know that , who have you spoken to that can make that a fact, pure conjecture, you dont know you are just stating what you hope is true.



> But forget about Marcus Williams and the Nets for a second.
> 
> Do I like Balkman? Yes. I love his game. He's a perfect fit. He will get rotation minutes, because Isiah knows how to utilize him, and he kind of needs to utilize him, to save his own ***. I think he will do well his rookie year.


you know what i like balkman too , i was probably one of the few guys in new york that knew he was a good pick on draft night , but i think he'll need to play like yesterday a few more times in the preseason to make the rotation...he didn't have such a good game 2nite apparently. i like him but he's a rook , i dont trust rooks until i see consistency from them. its just a general rule i have, unless the guy is a special case.


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## Real

*Re: Balkman is a great fit....*



Da Grinch said:


> yes you missed something.
> 
> "The guy we wanted coming into the draft was Balkman," said Thomas, who was looking for defense heading into his first season as both coach and team president. "He specifically fits the need we have right now. When you look at his motor and his engine and how he plays and the intensity he plays with, that's exactly what we needed."
> 
> The Knicks then took Temple point guard Mardy Collins with the 29th pick.
> 
> To help introduce Balkman to the media, the Knicks played a highlight-filled DVD.
> 
> Naturally, the hyperactive forward didn't miss a shot.
> 
> Because Thomas believed the Phoenix Suns were also chasing the high-energy defender, he used the 20th pick on Balkman.
> 
> The Suns were next on the clock and immediately dealt their pick.
> 
> "Balkman is a very unique talent, a very unique player," Thomas said. "He reminds me a lot of a (Dennis) Rodman or a (Ron) Artest type of player with his defensive ability.
> 
> "I thought if we went with Collins first, Balkman wouldn't have been there at 29," Thomas said. "If Collins would have went off the board, we did have a backup. We assured ourselves of getting one player, but we came out of it with two."
> 
> 
> http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060629/SPORTS01/606290341/1108


I was referring to the post where you said that the Suns traded the pick to the Nets, which was incorrect.



> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/430976p-363295c.html
> 
> so yeah you got that one wrong and so did your blogger


No I didn't. 

The Suns, specifically Mike D'Antoni, have stated that Balkman was not even on their radar. It's a lie by Thomas.



On draft night, Thomas said he took Balkman early because he was sure he would be gone when the Knicks selected again at No. 29 (they did not have a second-round pick). According to Thomas, the Phoenix Suns were set to draft Balkman with one of their two picks, at 21 or 27.



"That's funny," Mike D'Antoni, the Suns' president and coach, told a Phoenix radio station. "He wasn't even on our radar."
​That was written by Howard Beck of the NY Times. 





> and both Steven A. and Anthony have come around since then.


Of course they would, they're Knick loyalists, at least Stephen A. is. 



> they got it wrong they get stuff wrong every year for instance if they knew williams was going in the 20's he would not have been invited to the green room on draft night...and every year there is always a guy or 2 who are in the green room long after every1 else was drafted from there .


You're right, but they are not completely wrong ethier. They aren't completely incompetent idiots.



> he's so horrible he's on the spurs now , who are known for aquiring people who cant play ....vaughn wasn't so bad they didn't jump on him months ago.


You obviously didn't watch many Nets games last year. 



> this is his 5th year , he has a career shooting % of .374...last season he shot .346 fg .268 3pt and .682 from the line , i dont he still qualifies as a shooter...and he's no rjeff in athleticism...what athletic small forward is he more athletic then ? what shooter does he shoot better than?


Didn't say he was more athletic or a better shooter than anyone, but he does possess the ability. He hasn't had much PT for the better part of his career, and like I said before, I don't know what to expect out of him.



> how can they get balkman if the knicks weren't going to let him out the 1st round no matter what? that doesn't make any sense .


My point is why take a second round talent in the first round, when you can wait and get him in the second? Doesn't neccesarily matter which player it is, if he's a second round talent why do you take him in the first if you have a second?



> marbury didn't have to limit anything the the knicks were winning every moment he left the floor, and btw francis was mostly the pg when they were on the floor 2gether
> 
> 
> 
> once again francis was usually the pg when they were on the floor 2gether.


Well neither had any answer for Marcus Williams.

Who is the point gaurd for the Knicks? truth said earlier that the Knicks didn't have a pure point gaurd? Well that's not good, is it? 



> why didn't he have this dedication before the draft?
> 
> no one has ever given me a good reason for that?


He had the dedication to own up to his mistake, to have his mother live with him and put the event behind him, and have a great rest of season, which he did. 

As for the body fat percentage? Seriously, who cares? I trusted him to get down in time for traning camp. And he did. I understand the concern, but he's not obese, he doesn't need to go down to Duke and work out at their nutrition center or anything.

Besides, the next week, he came back and had a solid summer league.



> neither does Kobe who would you rather have?


Kobe has _nothing_ to do with this conversation. Kobe Bryant is Kobe Bryant. Qyntel Woods is not Kobe Bryant. He does not possess the same skills as Kobe Bryant.

When you're comparing the two, who's going to be more polished? One who played two years of community college ball, or one who played at one of the best conferences in the country?



> really how do you really know that , who have you spoken to that can make that a fact, pure conjecture, you dont know you are just stating what you hope is true.


How do I know that? Because Marcus Williams was available at 20, the Suns didn't have them on their radar, and there were still plenty of players, such as Jordan Farmar, Kyle Lowry, Rajon Rondo, Joel Freeland, Maurice Ager, and Shannon Brown, who were all considered first round talents. Are you really scared the Cavs were going to take Renaldo Balkman over Shannon Brown? 

I think it's just a poor justification of Isiah's flub on draft night. Do you not agree that the Knicks could have taken Marcus at 20, and Balkman at 29? Who was going to take him over Rondo, Boone, Ager, Brown, Farmar, etc? 



> you know what i like balkman too , i was probably one of the few guys in new york that knew he was a good pick on draft night , but i think he'll need to play like yesterday a few more times in the preseason to make the rotation...he didn't have such a good game 2nite apparently. i like him but he's a rook , i dont trust rooks until i see consistency from them. its just a general rule i have, unless the guy is a special case.


Spike Lee liked the pick, apparently.

Mardy Collins? Not so much..


----------



## dynamiks

You cannot deny the fact that Balkman is talented. If Marcus Williams was really that good why did so many teams pass on him? Why was Rajon Rondo choosen ahead of him? Also, Zeke has proven time after time he drafts talent so why is there so much bashing on zeke for drafting him? WHy didn't the Hawks draft him? they need a pg much more then NY? Even if Balkman was suppose to go 2nd round NY had no 2nd round picks. If any team knew Dennis ROdman was going to be that good u would never pass on him thats why Zeke selected him.


----------



## Real

dynamiks said:


> You cannot deny the fact that Balkman is talented. If Marcus Williams was really that good why did so many teams pass on him? Why was Rajon Rondo choosen ahead of him? Also, Zeke has proven time after time he drafts talent so why is there so much bashing on zeke for drafting him? WHy didn't the Hawks draft him? they need a pg much more then NY? Even if Balkman was suppose to go 2nd round NY had no 2nd round picks. If any team knew Dennis ROdman was going to be that good u would never pass on him thats why Zeke selected him.


Marcus Williams was passed on for two reasons, one was the incident last year, the other being his 14% body fat. The Hawks passed on him because they have had their eye on Shelden Williams, and they thought he was the safest pick, and they had reason to believe that, because of the accolades that he acheived while at Duke. The Celtics passed on him because they liked Rondo, they thought he was a good palyer, and he is. I do not think he is as good of a pure point gaurd as Marcus, but that's another argument. 

In any case, Marcus put both setbacks behind him to have a great summer league and is having a great preseason. He has proved in the summer and pre-season that he can play up to lottery standards. There's no doubt in my mind he will be a good player in this league, because he is arguably in the best position of any rookie in the NBA. 

I stated before why Isiah was bashed. One is they could have had both Balkman and Williams. They could have had Williams at 20 and Balkman at 29 if they were so high on Balkman. Instead they took Balkman at 20, and turned around and took Mardy Collins at 29. Their rival, the Nets got their succesor to Kidd. The other reason has to be when he said Phoenix was going to take him, a claim denied by D'Antoni, most likely a tactic used by Isiah to explain his flub, but it backfired.

Renaldo Balkman will crack the Knicks roatation as I said before, and he will help the Knicks this season, I just would like to know why Isiah had to have Balkman at 20, and why he couldn't take Marcus at 20, and Balkman at 29? Why does that scenerio not make sense?


----------



## dynamiks

If Williams was so nice why wouldnt the Suns take him to back up Nash. Also, the Knicks were looking for something in that draft Defense which Williams doesnt have. The hustle players are the most underrated players in the league and they are the ones that help teams win games. ie Ben Wallace, Haslem, Artest, Battier, Mopete, Ryan Gomes,Diop, Rodman, JYD, Horry, these guys hold intangibles and thats what Zeke prolly seen in Balkman. At Least with Balkman hes going to play with a 100%.


----------



## Real

dynamiks said:


> If Williams was so nice why wouldnt the Suns take him to back up Nash. Also, the Knicks were looking for something in that draft Defense which Williams doesnt have. The hustle players are the most underrated players in the league and they are the ones that help teams win games. ie Ben Wallace, Haslem, Artest, Battier, Mopete, Ryan Gomes,Diop, Rodman, JYD, Horry, these guys hold intangibles and thats what Zeke prolly seen in Balkman. At Least with Balkman hes going to play with a 100%.


They don't want a rookie backup to Steve Nash, because they went and got Marcus Banks. Obviously they didn't want a rookie point gaurd because they traded Sergio Rodriguez to the Blazers, who they took at 27, for cash. 

Williams doesn't have great defense like Jason Kidd, but he is IMO the best pure point gaurd in the draft. He knows how to run an offense and he will backup Jason Kidd just fine. 

And, I'm sorry if I'm reading this wrong, but did you imply that Marcus Williams won't play 100 percent? I can understand issues with his criminal charges, and his body fat issue, but I don't think he will give anything less than 100 percent while out on the floor.

I agree that the Knicks saw some good qualities in Balkman, but clearly the Knicks were not exclusively looking for defense when they took a PG, Mardy Collins, at 29 after passing over Marcus Williams at 20.

But this isn't Marcus Williams' thread, and I'm tired of defending him. You saw how he played the other night, and you saw him in summer league, and the whole NBA will see come November. I have no doubt in my mind he will have a very good rookie year, and I think Renaldo Balkman will do good as well.


----------



## truth

*Renaldo Balkman will crack the Knicks roatation as I said before, and he will help the Knicks this season, I just would like to know why Isiah had to have Balkman at 20, and why he couldn't take Marcus at 20, and Balkman at 29? Why does that scenerio not make sense?*


Sorry fellow Knick fans,our Net neighbor is 100% right..Zeke screwed it up.He should have picked Williams or Rondo and then gotten Balkman...Collins is average at best

Its painfully obvious we dont have a real point guard,and we certainly dont have one who will make the commitment to play D.Or should i say one who is over 5'6"....


----------



## frank9007

Don't question Isiah's drafting skills, never!

And NOBODY knows wether Balkman would have been available at#29 had Isiah passed on him at#20.

So quit bringing that stupid scenario into question 

Marcus Williams is not a point guard you want for your team.

He's a freaking poor mans marc jackson and i certainly don't want that.

Many teams also tought that Marcus 14 % body FAT + slow unatletic, laptop stealing point guard was not that good.

Isiah hand picked and scouted Balkman, and he din't care what NBA DRAFT NET OR DRAFTEXPRESS OR other scouts said.

Isiah felt Balk was a hidden gem in this weak draft.

I trust Zeke and i belive Balkman will be a very good player in the NBA.

Balkman allready has the D and the rebounding and defensive intangibles, ball handling. And he says he has J aswell.

Yeah keep your fat point guard and i'll keep my man Balkman.

:yes:


----------



## Da Grinch

truth said:


> *Renaldo Balkman will crack the Knicks roatation as I said before, and he will help the Knicks this season, I just would like to know why Isiah had to have Balkman at 20, and why he couldn't take Marcus at 20, and Balkman at 29? Why does that scenerio not make sense?*
> 
> 
> Sorry fellow Knick fans,our Net neighbor is 100% right..Zeke screwed it up.He should have picked Williams or Rondo and then gotten Balkman...Collins is average at best
> 
> Its painfully obvious we dont have a real point guard,and we certainly dont have one who will make the commitment to play D.Or should i say one who is over 5'6"....


ok lets say Zeke did the dumb thing and draft williams now what?

does he start ahead of francis or marbury ...or even jamal crawford all possible starters at this point. i dont think so .

is he a better backup than nate ?, especially considering his defensive deficiencies. I dont think so either .

marcus williams would rot on the bench in knicksland....where he would have no trade value and be stuck on the roster.

and is marcus williams the kind of talent you would trade all or most of the guards in front of him so he can play?

if he were , he would have been drafted be4 22 I think thats obvious .

collins is a pg but he gives the team defensive versatility because he is big enough to guard both backcourt spots , even the 3 in quick lineup.. he actually has a use that no one on the roster excels at .

from today's ledger. from an advance scout watching the games



> "Beautiful player," the scout said after watching the Nets rookie point guard recently. "But he'll never play."
> 
> Come again?
> 
> "Don't get me wrong: He's the best backup Jason Kidd has ever had there -- no doubt about that -- and he should play," the scout continued. "But he doesn't defend, and he turns it over too much, and they have a coach who doesn't usually let guys play through their mistakes. There's too much at stake for that team now. That's my prediction, and I'm sticking to it."
> 
> That assessment, of course, is about Lawrence Frank as much as it is about Williams, and as of now, it's difficult to know what Frank is thinking with the team coming off a third straight defeat, 119-110, yesterday at Toronto.
> 
> For Williams, it was another mixed bag, as it often must be for rookie point guards. He had some splendid moments and finished with 16 points and nine assists.
> 
> But he also had six turnovers in 28 minutes, and the Raptors scored a total of 34 points off 20 Nets turnovers.
> 
> In other words, these games are beginning to look the same.
> 
> That's not to say this was all Williams' fault, of course. To a man, the Nets are convinced he is capable of making an immediate contribution if given the chance. But Frank is weeks away from making that determination, and right now, he is more preoccupied with getting his defense together, because it has yielded an average of 111 points through the first three games.


http://www.nj.com/nets/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/116097637379380.xml&coll=1#continue

the guy has talent but to say it was a mistake at this point to pick balkman and collins and not williams is more than premature.


----------



## Real

frank9007 said:


> Don't question Isiah's drafting skills, never!
> 
> And NOBODY knows wether Balkman would have been available at#29 had Isiah passed on him at#20.
> 
> So quit bringing that stupid scenario into question
> 
> Marcus Williams is not a point guard you want for your team.
> 
> He's a freaking poor mans marc jackson and i certainly don't want that.
> 
> Many teams also tought that Marcus 14 % body FAT + slow unatletic, laptop stealing point guard was not that good.
> 
> Isiah hand picked and scouted Balkman, and he din't care what NBA DRAFT NET OR DRAFTEXPRESS OR other scouts said.
> 
> Isiah felt Balk was a hidden gem in this weak draft.
> 
> I trust Zeke and i belive Balkman will be a very good player in the NBA.
> 
> Balkman allready has the D and the rebounding and defensive intangibles, ball handling. And he says he has J aswell.
> 
> Yeah keep your fat point guard and i'll keep my man Balkman.
> 
> :yes:


"My fat point gaurd" 

Again, you didn't read my above posts, so there's no real reason why to respond to you if you didn't read anything I posted. 

But then again, there is nothing wrong with the Knicks. At all..nothing. Silly me.

EDIT: I also find it very funny you call Marcus Williams fat, but routinely point out Eddy Curry's name out as if he's the juggernaut of NBA centers.


----------



## Real

Da Grinch said:


> ok lets say Zeke did the dumb thing and draft williams now what?
> 
> does he start ahead of francis or marbury ...or even jamal crawford all possible starters at this point. i dont think so .
> 
> is he a better backup than nate ?, especially considering his defensive deficiencies. I dont think so either .
> 
> marcus williams would rot on the bench in knicksland....where he would have no trade value and be stuck on the roster.
> 
> and is marcus williams the kind of talent you would trade all or most of the guards in front of him so he can play?
> 
> if he were , he would have been drafted be4 22 I think thats obvious .


You don't neccesarily need to trade Crawford, Marbury, or Francis. Although, I would try to trade Marbury and/or Francis in any situation. 

I'd take him over Nate Robinson based on what he's done in the summer league and presesaon, but that's just me. I think Nate needs to get a bit more discliplined. I also think with Marcus you get someone that can step in and run your offense and get everyone looks, and that is going to be his role on the Nets.



> collins is a pg but he gives the team defensive versatility because he is big enough to guard both backcourt spots , even the 3 in quick lineup.. he actually has a use that no one on the roster excels at .


So if Marcus Williams wouldn't play on the Knicks, what makes you think Mardy will play?



> from today's ledger. from an advance scout watching the games
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nj.com/nets/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/116097637379380.xml&coll=1#continue
> 
> the guy has talent but to say it was a mistake at this point to pick balkman and collins and not williams is more than premature.


Premature? Not when you look at the scenerio. They could have had a lottery talent and Balkman, instead they got a late first rounder and Balkman. Simple as that.

As for the article, I have three theories.

1. Motivation to Frank, sending him a message to play him.

2. Motivation to Marcus Williams, to improve on his defense, so he can crack the rotation.

3. The scout is wrong.

This is really the first sign that he isn't going to be able to crack the rotation. He's played well like I said in the preseason, and in the summer league, he's in shape. I'd be suprised if Frank does not play him, despite his previous track record.


----------



## frank9007

Real said:


> "My fat point gaurd"


Ok he's a FAT *** point guard then.




Real said:


> Again, you didn't read my above posts, so there's no real reason why to respond to you if you didn't read anything I posted.


WTF? You writing garbage that has so many holes and what if's in it.

I'm giving you the real deal hollyfield son.

Balkman was the right pick 100% i watch him in the NCAA when i watch him outplay Joakim Noah.

Kid can ball no doubt in my mind.

And the Knicks were not looking for FAT POINT GUARDS that i am sure of.

Knicks din't need a guard that doesn't play a lick of defense none whatsoever.

You using Mardy Collins as justification for why Isiah should have pick Williams is laughable. The Knicks selected Collins because he is combo guard that can DEFENSE!

Williams cannot provide the things Collins provides.

Collins 6'6 200+ pounds strong and can defend and handle, post.

Knick needed DEFENSE and they got it.




Real said:


> But then again, there is nothing wrong with the Knicks. At all..nothing. *Silly me*.


Yeah silly you.


----------



## L

frank9007 said:


> Ok he's a FAT *** point guard then.
> 
> 
> 
> WTF? You writing garbage that has so many holes and what if's in it.
> 
> I'm giving you the real deal hollyfield son.
> 
> Balkman was the right pick 100% i watch him in the NCAA when i watch him outplay Joakim Noah.
> 
> Kid can ball no doubt in my mind.
> 
> And the Knicks were not looking for FAT POINT GUARDS that i am sure of.
> 
> Knicks din't need a guard that doesn't play a lick of defense none whatsoever.
> 
> You using Mardy Collins as justification for why Isiah should have pick Williams is laughable. The Knicks selected Collins because he is combo guard that can DEFENSE!
> 
> Williams cannot provide the things Collins provides.
> 
> Collins 6'6 200+ pounds strong and can defend and handle, post.
> 
> Knick needed DEFENSE and they got it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah silly you.


:rofl:
You are funnier than AJC NYC!


----------



## Real

frank9007 said:


> Ok he's a FAT *** point guard then.


Didn't look like it in the summer, against the Pacers, and against the Knicks...



> WTF? You writing garbage that has so many holes and what if's in it.
> 
> I'm giving you the real deal hollyfield son.
> 
> Balkman was the right pick 100% i watch him in the NCAA when i watch him outplay Joakim Noah.
> 
> Kid can ball no doubt in my mind.
> 
> *And the Knicks were not looking for FAT POINT GUARDS that i am sure of.*


You're right, two fat centers are enough.



> Knicks din't need a guard that doesn't play a lick of defense none whatsoever.
> 
> You using Mardy Collins as justification for why Isiah should have pick Williams is laughable. The Knicks selected Collins because he is combo guard that can DEFENSE!
> 
> Williams cannot provide the things Collins provides.
> 
> Collins 6'6 200+ pounds strong and can defend and handle, post.
> 
> Knick needed DEFENSE and they got it.


So I guess all the scouts that saw Marcus Williams play, and projected him a lottery pick, and all those that saw Mardy play, put him at the end of the first round, are dead wrong.

Mardy can play D, but Marcus Williams is a better offensive player, while still having the potental to improve on his defense. BTW, he did average a steal a game at UConn, and led the nation in assists at 8.3. He has improved each year he was at UConn. Your insults towards him are unwarranted.



> Yeah silly you.


Yep.


----------



## USSKittyHawk

ENOUGH ALREADY!


----------



## Da Grinch

Real said:


> Marcus Williams was passed on for two reasons, one was the incident last year, the other being his 14% body fat. The Hawks passed on him because they have had their eye on Shelden Williams, and they thought he was the safest pick, and they had reason to believe that, because of the accolades that he acheived while at Duke. The Celtics passed on him because they liked Rondo, they thought he was a good palyer, and he is. I do not think he is as good of a pure point gaurd as Marcus, but that's another argument.
> 
> In any case, Marcus put both setbacks behind him to have a great summer league and is having a great preseason. He has proved in the summer and pre-season that he can play up to lottery standards. There's no doubt in my mind he will be a good player in this league, because he is arguably in the best position of any rookie in the NBA.
> 
> I stated before why Isiah was bashed. One is they could have had both Balkman and Williams. They could have had Williams at 20 and Balkman at 29 if they were so high on Balkman. Instead they took Balkman at 20, and turned around and took Mardy Collins at 29. Their rival, the Nets got their succesor to Kidd. The other reason has to be when he said Phoenix was going to take him, a claim denied by D'Antoni, most likely a tactic used by Isiah to explain his flub, but it backfired.
> 
> Renaldo Balkman will crack the Knicks roatation as I said before, and he will help the Knicks this season, I just would like to know why Isiah had to have Balkman at 20, and why he couldn't take Marcus at 20, and Balkman at 29? Why does that scenerio not make sense?




i would still like to know how do you know that every GM from 20-29 would pass on balkman?

for all we know there deals in place to get him be4 29 to get him from any team in the nba because LB was apparently singing his praises to all who would listen , i dont deal in possiblities i deal in reality, you have no proof , you have conjecture , you have guesses that no one else was interested due to a theory of his percieved worth. a theory i might add that is destryed by the fact that balkman was drafted anyway ahead of the 2nd round by thomas , a guy with a pretty good history of drafting players .

players dont get drafted where they are expected more often then not for a bunch of reasons...in fact if you can find any pre-draft mock that gets 15 of the 1st 30 picks right i'll concede your points , but you cant and wont because it just doesn't happen....most get 4-10 i've never seen one with more than that.

did you get quotes from each GM saying they got the guy they wanted and that they weren't looking at balkman because he was a "2nd round pick"

hawks had their eye on shelden ok? how about the next 16 picks ? why was he there at 22 if he were so good and the questions about him so invalid?

its not like there weren't pg's taken before him in between 5-22 douby ? why does no one question this?

foye?

douby?

rondo ? the incumant pg's were banks , d.west and mike bibby , all shoot 1st pg's how come they didn't need this breath of fresh air pass 1st pg?

basically the argument that the knicks needed him is crap , all three had shoot 1st pg's and drafted 3 more of them...yet somehow the only one that deserves scrutiny for passing on a guy who lasted to 22 is a nail in the coffin for just 1 team because they went and drafted at a position of need at the 3 .

a team that was bad on defense went and got 2 defense 1st players , this is somehow a mistake, because they didn't go for yet another all O and no D player however pass 1st he may be who entered the draft out of shape and is a known character risk. at a position i might add they were already filled at...

this is hogwash.

and really who cares how williams has done in summer league and preseason , the problem wasn't williams cant get it together for 3 months its that he couldn't for the 1st 21 years of his life so what really did any1 have to go on at draft night that he could have for the life of his rookie deal and/or career because thats what its all about , there are no redo's on nov. 1st and since all the issue about williams are long range , no one really worries about 21 year old pg's not competing at a pyhsical level but how about when they are 25, 27 or 29 ? 

where is frank williams? same guy in alot of ways and out of the league for essentially the same issues people are worried about marcus for , how do you know it cant be marcus too?

to say he shouldn't have been passed on when there are so many reasons to pass on him is silly.

and FYI saying the knicks had no answer for him when they beat the nets by 14 sounds silly, if they really had no answer for him the nets would have won...in reality balkman had more of an impact in his shorter minutes, the knicks certainly did better on the court when balkman was playing than the nets did with williams.


----------



## alphadog

*Man, Frank....*

You're embarrassing yourself and all NY fans. Remember, we're supposedly the most intelligent fan base around (Bball IQ) and this NJ poster is the only guy here besides Truth and I that gets it. Yes, Balkman is a good player who may blossom into a starter....he MAY. The truth of the matter is that Marcus Willaims is a lottery talent, warts and all. Criticizing his D is stupid since he just got here and most Rooks are not good at it. Plus, being a shut-down defender is not neccessary for every player. You do need to play team defense and we have no way of knowing how good or bad he will be. He is also young and may not realize the importance of being in NBA shape. Remember, he had his way with everybody in college. His "laptop" incident was the only thing that gave me cause to question his draft position but he has been otherwise law-abiding, as far as I know. Comparing him to Mark Jackson reduces your credibility even further. They couldn't be much more different. Think Rod Strickland with more body fat. I (and the majority of people) feel Balkman would have been around at 29. The opportunity to grab a lotto talent PG at Balkman's slot should have been taken. Put in simplest terms for you, we more than likely could have had Williams and Balkman, rather than Balkman and Collins. And in answer to Grinch's question aboout where you play him...well, if he pans out the way he looks like he will, Marbury and/or Francis become expendable. Meanwhile he sits and learns. YouoNEVER can have too much talent on a team.


----------



## cpawfan

Da Grinch said:


> i would still like to know how do you know that every GM from 20-29 would pass on balkman?
> 
> for all we know there deals in place to get him be4 29 to get him from any team in the nba because LB was apparently singing his praises to all who would listen , i dont deal in possiblities i deal in reality, you have no proof , you have conjecture , you have guesses that no one else was interested due to a theory of his percieved worth. a theory i might add that is destryed by the fact that balkman was drafted anyway ahead of the 2nd round by thomas , a guy with a pretty good history of drafting players .


You say you don't deal in possibilities but you also said somewhere in this forum that you don't believe Balkman would be there at 29 and there is nothing to prove that either. 
I'm a Balkman fan, but there is no evidence that any other team besides the Knicks wanted to select Balkman in the first round. On the specific point of Balkman being available at 29, there is nothing but conjecture.


----------



## cpawfan

frank9007 said:


> Knicks din't need a guard that doesn't play a lick of defense none whatsoever.
> 
> You using Mardy Collins as justification for why Isiah should have pick Williams is laughable. The Knicks selected Collins because he is combo guard that can DEFENSE!
> 
> Williams cannot provide the things Collins provides.
> 
> Collins 6'6 200+ pounds strong and can defend and handle, post.
> 
> Knick needed DEFENSE and they got it.


Now if you want to talk defense, Rondo is a far superior defender to Collins and with his long arms and strength is very capable of defending SG's.


----------



## MemphisX

I am trying to figure out how it was a mistake to select a player at #20 that is out performing his draft slot.


----------



## cpawfan

MemphisX said:


> I am trying to figure out how it was a mistake to select a player at #20 that is out performing his draft slot.


It is preseason, how can one really out or under perform their draft slot in the preseason?

You are mixing issues. The point that Real is trying to discuss is 20th pick vs 29th pick


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Man, Frank....*



alphadog said:


> You're embarrassing yourself and all NY fans. Remember, we're supposedly the most intelligent fan base around (Bball IQ) and this NJ poster is the only guy here besides Truth and I that gets it. Yes, Balkman is a good player who may blossom into a starter....he MAY. The truth of the matter is that Marcus Willaims is a lottery talent, warts and all. Criticizing his D is stupid since he just got here and most Rooks are not good at it. Plus, being a shut-down defender is not neccessary for every player. You do need to play team defense and we have no way of knowing how good or bad he will be. He is also young and may not realize the importance of being in NBA shape. Remember, he had his way with everybody in college. His "laptop" incident was the only thing that gave me cause to question his draft position but he has been otherwise law-abiding, as far as I know. Comparing him to Mark Jackson reduces your credibility even further. They couldn't be much more different. Think Rod Strickland with more body fat. I (and the majority of people) feel Balkman would have been around at 29. The opportunity to grab a lotto talent PG at Balkman's slot should have been taken. Put in simplest terms for you, we more than likely could have had Williams and Balkman, rather than Balkman and Collins. *And in answer to Grinch's question aboout where you play him...well, if he pans out the way he looks like he will, Marbury and/or Francis become expendable. Meanwhile he sits and learns. YouoNEVER can have too much talent on a team.*


lotto talents are taken the lottery, thats the definition of it .

there were teams in the lotto who needed pg's who passed on him .

seattle , tor.atl. port. memphis. and minny...if he were such a talent 1 of them should have jumped

and the questions on williams weren't supposed to answered today or next week but as the years go by , can he keep himself in shape year after year ? can a laptop thief lead your team ?

no is asking him to lead anything right now so it amazes me how people can be so sure when the top basketball talent evaluators in the world aren't...that speaks to naiveness when there is significant proof that it really may not be the case.

none of us know him personally , but the people who do made him a late 1st round pick of of this knowledge ...but yet people are so sure .

and all this for a guy i might add that does not solve any of the woes the knicks have , he doesn't defend,and williams was not a good defender in college either so talking about his defense is extremely important. the UConn team admitted they fell apart for lack of unity last season (boone and gay said this over the summer) so he is not the solidifying force the squad needs...at the moment rondo looks better and fills the knicks needs more , but no one cares about the knicks needs ...people just think macus williams is the guy because at 1 point he may have been thought of as a lotto pick .

well at times in high school rajon rondo was thought to be a better player than telfair ...an actual lotto pick last year...what does it mean now ?...do we kill all the teams that let a possible lotto pick at 21 go by them too...people are letting perception rule reality ...because right now its the right choice to take balkman and collins 2 guys who fill the need for the knicks to be better defenders.


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## Da Grinch

cpawfan said:


> You say you don't deal in possibilities but you also said somewhere in this forum that you don't believe Balkman would be there at 29 and there is nothing to prove that either.
> I'm a Balkman fan, but there is no evidence that any other team besides the Knicks wanted to select Balkman in the first round. On the specific point of Balkman being available at 29, there is nothing but conjecture.


you are right there is no proof either way.

so how do you 2nd guess it if you dont know?

thats my question.

i believe you can only go on whats there, people are talking about draft position thats more than a question of Zeke's drafting that brings in all the GM's because no one knows what they are thinking either....so if I were to wonder who knows more about the mindsets of the other GM's since apparently thats what Zeke was guessing ...who knows more Zeke or some poster?

My guess would be Zeke. and for some poster to say them to me is silly. thats why I keep asking how do they know?


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## cpawfan

*Re: Man, Frank....*



Da Grinch said:


> lotto talents are taken the lottery, thats the definition of it .


Skita was lotto talent? I could go on and on, but that is a silly statement.



> there were teams in the lotto who needed pg's who passed on him .
> 
> seattle , tor.atl. port. memphis. and minny...if he were such a talent 1 of them should have jumped


Seattle and Portland don't need a PG. Secondly, there is a difference between lotto talent and top six pick in the draft talent. Third, Memphis didn't have a lottery pick and they did pick Lowry.


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Man, Frank....*



cpawfan said:


> Skita was lotto talent? I could go on and on, but that is a silly statement.
> 
> 
> 
> Seattle and Portland don't need a PG. Secondly, there is a difference between lotto talent and top six pick in the draft talent. Third, Memphis didn't have a lottery pick and they did pick Lowry.


memphis did a draft day trade and selected rudy gay 8th...they could have selected marcus williams if they were so inclined..

and at the time skita was a lotto talent GM's aren't perfect, skita sucks .

there is no redoing drafts you cant go back and pick the best 14 guys and say this guy was a lotto talent even though he was picked 37th , it doesn't work that way ..,if you are picked in the lotto you are a lotto talent and if you aren't, you ain't.

its that simple


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## cpawfan

Da Grinch said:


> you are right there is no proof either way.
> 
> so how do you 2nd guess it if you dont know?
> 
> thats my question.
> 
> i believe you can only go on whats there, people are talking about draft position thats more than a question of Zeke's drafting that brings in all the GM's because no one knows what they are thinking either....so if I were to wonder who knows more about the mindsets of the other GM's since apparently thats what Zeke was guessing ...who knows more Zeke or some poster?
> 
> My guess would be Zeke. and for some poster to say them to me is silly. thats why I keep asking how do they know?


Honestly, I don't believe Zeke has a good grasp of how other GM's think. As a GM, he clearly marches to his own beat.

Analyzing the players selected between 20 and 29, it is fairly easy to make a deduction that Balkman still would have been there at 29.


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## MrCharisma

Kitty said:


> :rofl: Ok guys continue....:drool:


You want me to put up some Balkman pics too? :biggrin:


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## Da Grinch

cpawfan said:


> Honestly, I don't believe Zeke has a good grasp of how other GM's think. As a GM, he clearly marches to his own beat.
> 
> Analyzing the players selected between 20 and 29, it is fairly easy to make a deduction that Balkman still would have been there at 29.



now i have to ask how do you know?

more conjecture?

the nets needed a backup 3 the lakers needed a backup 3 especially 1 who plays D...the cavs could also use an upgrade at back up small forward ...let alone the fact that Larry Brown against the rules of his contract was discussing how much he thought of Balkman(one of the knicks arguments against him) which opens the hornets nests to any team in the nba , plus since larry knew Zeke liked him that means the 29th pick could be jumped over for a selection to take him since LB was too busy making his likes public knowledge.


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## cpawfan

*Re: Man, Frank....*



Da Grinch said:


> memphis did a draft day trade and selected rudy gay 8th...they could have selected marcus williams if they were so inclined..


Memphis was only going to make a trade with Houston if Morrison, Roy or Gay were there because they knew they could get a PG with their pick @24. The only reason it worked out for them is because Portland (via Boston) jumped in and took Foye at #7 to break up the trade Memphis had planned with Houston.



> and at the time skita was a lotto talent GM's aren't perfect, skita sucks .
> 
> there is no redoing drafts you cant go back and pick the best 14 guys and say this guy was a lotto talent even though he was picked 37th , it doesn't work that way ..,if you are picked in the lotto you are a lotto talent and if you aren't, you ain't.
> 
> its that simple


No, it is still bad logic. Being picked in the lottery means one is a lottery pick and that at least one team believes you have lottery talent. Lottery talent isn't demonstrated until games are actually played.


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## cpawfan

Da Grinch said:


> now i have to ask how do you know?


Know what? Where in the post that you quoted did I say I knew anything about the picks?



> more conjecture?
> 
> the nets needed a backup 3 the lakers needed a backup 3 especially 1 who plays D...the cavs could also use an upgrade at back up small forward ...let alone the fact that Larry Brown against the rules of his contract was discussing how much he thought of Balkman(one of the knicks arguments against him) which opens the hornets nests to any team in the nba , plus since larry knew Zeke liked him that means the 29th pick could be jumped over for a selection to take him since LB was too busy making his likes public knowledge.


I'll go through your conjecture.

While you continue to choose to not to believe it, a backup 3 was not on the Nets first round wish list. They weren't going to select a wing in the first.

The Lakers had given a soft promise to James White; however, when Farmer fell, he was pushed aside. They weren't going to take Balkman over White

The Cavs took Shannon Brown because they wanted a scorer.

All you have left is the contention that a team would have believed Larry Brown and selected Balkman to attempt to force a trade with the Knicks. There is no team between 20 and 29 that would trust Larry Brown so you would have to have a team trade into that spot of the draft with the hope that they could get more out of Zeke than what they gave up.


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## L

Heres a smilie that i think that is appropiate for this argument.


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## USSKittyHawk

MrCharisma said:


> You want me to put up some Balkman pics too? :biggrin:


Oh hell no JD, the sight of Balkman's snout would give me nightmares. :no:


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## Real

Kitty said:


> Oh hell no JD, the sight of Balkman's snout would give me nightmares. :no:


Then I suppose Mikki Moore is off limits. 

What about Josh Boone?


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## Gotham2krazy

Isn't this thread about Balkman? I don't even feel like reading through this stuff, but I'm pretty sure I got the gist of it. Marcus Williams was passed because we were going to get a good point guard in Mardy Collins. But the point was ZEKE felt like we NEEDED Balkman, which is very true. He's already a fan favorite, much more so than Nate, but just as much as David and Channing. Mardy did pretty well last night grabbing 5 boards, even though he's suposed to play guard. We have enough short point guards that are capable, I think the reason Mardy was picked was because of his height, talent, and possibility to play both guard positions. If that Draft Night were to re-happen, I'd want Zeke to repick Renaldo and Mardy. I wouldn't want Josh Boone, maybe Marcus, but I don't see them flourishing here, thus why I'd want Mardy and Renaldo.


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## Gotham2krazy

*Re: Man, Frank....*



cpawfan said:


> Memphis was only going to make a trade with Houston if Morrison, Roy or Gay were there because they knew they could get a PG with their pick @24. The only reason it worked out for them is because Portland (via Boston) jumped in and took Foye at #7 to break up the trade Memphis had planned with Houston.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it is still bad logic. Being picked in the lottery means one is a lottery pick and that at least one team believes you have lottery talent. Lottery talent isn't demonstrated until games are actually played.


Portland took Foye because Minny had a deal with the Rocks in a Foye for Roy trade, so Portland took Foye because they wanted Roy.


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## alphadog

*Gotham,*

Apparently you do NOT get the gist. No one is questioning the drafting of Balkman, only where he was picked. One camp firmly believes that he could be had at 29, the other side believes there were other teams waiting to snatch him up. There are NO REAL indications that this is the case...only IT's statement to that end. By allowing him to be dropped to our second pick, we could have swapped Willaims for Collins on the roster. Collins has shown nothing, really, while Williams has excelled to this point. 

One last point....anyone getting caught up in what ANY of the rookies have done and are doing in Summer league and pre-season are fools. Kwame Brown was excellent in preseason as a rookie and disappeared faster than a keg at a frat party once the season started. Do not expect to see Collins much at all (maybe some garbage minutes) and Balkman will not see the same success he has seen so far...his weaknesses will be exposed forcing him to adapt and improve. Simmer down, now.


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## E.H. Munro

Real said:


> They could have had a lottery talent and Balkman, instead they got a late first rounder and Balkman. Simple as that.


I thought we were discussing Marcus Williams?


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Man, Frank....*



cpawfan said:


> Memphis was only going to make a trade with Houston if Morrison, Roy or Gay were there because they knew they could get a PG with their pick @24. The only reason it worked out for them is because Portland (via Boston) jumped in and took Foye at #7 to break up the trade Memphis had planned with Houston.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it is still bad logic. Being picked in the lottery means one is a lottery pick and that at least one team believes you have lottery talent. Lottery talent isn't demonstrated until games are actually played.


you missed my point .

the point is they aquired the 8th pick and could have picked williams with it , thats all, they chose Gay which imo the wise decision ...but if williams were all that ...they could have made that deal in case williams fell.

but anyway there is no way any1 can prove that all the GM's missed the boat on Balkman , to me that is silly . They had to know he could play , and therefore in their decision making process , whether they chose to pick him is another story.

people are acting as if because jay bilas didn't know he could play then obviously no other GM did.

for 1 the most successful teams select in the end of the 1st round more often then not ...usually the best GM's are selecting there .

2 some of your points are invalid like the cavs needed a scorer ....they had flip wilson to play the same role , flip + balkman seems to me better than shannon brown.

3.and how do you think Zeke has a bad grasp on how other GM's think , at least 15 players in zeke's era are either GM's or assistant GM's in the nba i would say he has a good grip since he knows so many on a personal basis...i would like to know why you think so different ?

4. how do you know what GM's think of larry brown? did you see something that suggest they no longer respect him or his opinion on basketball?


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## cpawfan

*Re: Man, Frank....*



Da Grinch said:


> you missed my point .
> 
> the point is they aquired the 8th pick and could have picked williams with it , thats all, they chose Gay which imo the wise decision ...but if williams were all that ...they could have made that deal in case williams fell.
> 
> but anyway there is no way any1 can prove that all the GM's missed the boat on Balkman , to me that is silly .
> 
> for 1 the most successful teams select in the end of the 1st round more often then not ...usually the best GM's are selecting there .
> 
> 2 some of your points are invalid like the cavs needed a scorer ....they had flip wilson to play the same role , flip + balkman seems to me better than shannon brown.
> 
> 3.and how do you think Zeke has a bad grasp on how other GM's think , at least 15 players in zeke's era are either GM's or assistant GM's in the nba i would say he has a good grip since he knows so many on a personal basis...i would like to know why you think so different ?
> 
> 4. how do you know what GM's think of larry brown? did you see something that suggest they no longer respect him or his opinion on basketball?



Flip Wilson ???  Flip Murray didn't get that big of a contract from the Pistons, if the Cavs had wanted to keep him they could have.

Re: Zeke - Just because he knows a lot of the other GMs personally doesn't mean he understands how they evaluate players. On top of that, many of the players from his era didn't / don't like him. No other GM would have attempted Marbury and Francis. Zeke doesn't have a conventional bone in his body and he is supremely confident in his own decisions. Zeke also only thinks big.

Re: Larry Brown - I don't believe there is an NBA team out there that would trust his player evaluations outside of his buddy Pop. Larry Brown has worn out his welcome in most NBA circles that don't involve the UNC family.


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Man, Frank....*



cpawfan said:


> Flip Wilson ???  Flip Murray didn't get that big of a contract from the Pistons, if the Cavs had wanted to keep him they could have.


you can say that about any player let go of in the offseason...but the point remains flip and brown are basically the same player the only difference is flip has proven he can do it on an nba level and shannon hasn't, in addidtion to that they could have upgraded on ira newble with balkman...they never got the chance to use that logic though , but i think its pretty sound.




> Re: Zeke - Just because he knows a lot of the other GMs personally doesn't mean he understands how they evaluate players. On top of that, many of the players from his era didn't / don't like him. No other GM would have attempted Marbury and Francis. Zeke doesn't have a conventional bone in his body and he is supremely confident in his own decisions. Zeke also only thinks big.


Zeke was included on player decisions and how his GM thought in Det. In tor. he really wasn't the big plan guy he is now , (in NYC its big budget, big attention , big plans) he's adapted to his enviroment ....we saw the same thing happened with Layden , he is the one who left the the cap situation in such shambles to begin with ...he was very under control in utah. alot of the restraints are gone here .



> Re: Larry Brown - I don't believe there is an NBA team out there that would trust his player evaluations outside of his buddy Pop. Larry Brown has worn out his welcome in most NBA circles that don't involve the UNC family.


is Cleveland in his UNC circle? ...i dont think their owner is(in fact he hired a duke guy when Brown turned him down in Ferry) but he wanted the cavs to be run by brown...is billy King a UNC guy I dont think he is but Brown apparently has an open position waiting for him or it least a rumored position and has even moved back to philly.

i'm not saying my maybe's are reality but to say they cant be true , I am then just going to ask for proof...and then i want to see some.


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## Da Grinch

*back to the topic*

9 points 7 rebounds 2 steals 14 minutes last night.

in 3 games 
8 points 5.7 reb. 1 st 1 ast. .474 fg., .500 3point fg , .556 ft. 0.7 blk. 0.3 to's 17.3 minutes

i think thats pretty good.


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## cpawfan

*Re: Man, Frank....*



Da Grinch said:


> you can say that about any player let go of in the offseason...but the point remains flip and brown are basically the same player the only difference is flip has proven he can do it on an nba level and shannon hasn't, in addidtion to that they could have upgraded on ira newble with balkman...they never got the chance to use that logic though , but i think its pretty sound.


If the Cavs were looking for defense, they would have selected Ager over Brown and acomplished the same thing you are proposing.



> Zeke was included on player decisions and how his GM thought in Det. In tor. he really wasn't the big plan guy he is now , (in NYC its big budget, big attention , big plans) he's adapted to his enviroment ....we saw the same thing happened with Layden , he is the one who left the the cap situation in such shambles to begin with ...he was very under control in utah. alot of the restraints are gone here .
> 
> is Cleveland in his UNC circle? ...i dont think their owner is(in fact he hired a duke guy when Brown turned him down in Ferry) but he wanted the cavs to be run by brown...is billy King a UNC guy I dont think he is but Brown apparently has an open position waiting for him or it least a rumored position and has even moved back to philly.
> 
> i'm not saying my maybe's are reality but to say they cant be true , I am then just going to ask for proof...and then i want to see some.


The shipped long ago on the Cavs wanting Larry Brown to have anything to do with their team and Billy King is one of the worst GMs in the NBA and use to work for Larry Brown.

There is no proof on either side of this because NBA GMs are going to talk to the media about this. All we have our whisphers, reading between the lines and analysis.


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## Real

ehmunro said:


> I thought we were discussing Marcus Williams?


We are.


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## alphadog

*Gimme a break, Grinch...*

You really put much stock in pre-season stats? On top of that, even statistically it's irrelevent since thje sample is so small....(50% threes on 1 for 2...please). I like him, too, but you have your orange and blue tinted glasses on. I would expect him to be 50% fg based on the type of shots taken. The only J I have seen is the one 3 he made...I missed seeing the other one he missed. I think he will get boards in the same STYLE as Rodman did...all out hustle. FT sucks. I promise you teams will tighten up on him as they see him, much as they did with Ariza. He'll be a decent player, eventually, I think. I expect him to start well...nosedive...and then work back up. What you see when he is working back up is closer to what he will be.


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## Da Grinch

Real said:


> We are.



are we? , he was chosen 22 ...lotto selections end at 14.

nets fans are calling him a lotto talent , but he isn't if he were he would have been chosen before the nets could have gotten their mitts on him ...

case in point rudy gay ...he was slipping past his expected position and the grizz jumped on him.

i didn't see any team that hot for williams so to me he is no lotto talent .


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Gimme a break, Grinch...*



alphadog said:


> You really put much stock in pre-season stats? On top of that, even statistically it's irrelevent since thje sample is so small....(50% threes on 1 for 2...please). I like him, too, but you have your orange and blue tinted glasses on. I would expect him to be 50% fg based on the type of shots taken. The only J I have seen is the one 3 he made...I missed seeing the other one he missed. I think he will get boards in the same STYLE as Rodman did...all out hustle. FT sucks. I promise you teams will tighten up on him as they see him, much as they did with Ariza. He'll be a decent player, eventually, I think. I expect him to start well...nosedive...and then work back up. What you see when he is working back up is closer to what he will be.



i'm sorry alpha but reading is fundamental .

all i said was i think he's doing well after 3 games , and i put all his numbers in .good and bad.

outside of that any wild assumption you have made in this post like i think its a great sample size or my belief that this will be his stats when the games count is in your imagination.


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## E.H. Munro

Real said:


> We are.


Then we're not talking about a lottery talent. To be brutally frank, he's no better than the third best point guard in the 2006 draft, and that position could drop depending on how Minnesota uses Foye. Lowry & Rondo will be better than Ma Williams. And to be brutally frank, the last thing the Knicks needed was another point guard that couldn't **edit**. They did need guys that could play defense, and in June had no idea that they'd be landing Jeffries.


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## Real

ehmunro said:


> Then we're not talking about a lottery talent. To be brutally frank, he's no better than the third best point guard in the 2006 draft, and that position could drop depending on how Minnesota uses Foye. Lowry & Rondo will be better than Ma Williams. And to be brutally frank, the last thing the **edit** They did need guys that could play defense, and in June had no idea that they'd be landing Jeffries.


Geeez...

Well, we shall see. I disagree with you, I think Marcus is a better offensive point gaurd than both of them. I do think he can get much better on defense, he has the potental, but we shall find out. I watch him, and I just find that confidence he has when he's running the offense, always looking for his teammates, always keeping his cool, and I think that's very special for a young player like him. But that's why they play the games. He was doing very well until he sprained his wrist, which will keep him out of the remaining preseason games.

The thing I like about him, is that he's overcome alot. He's overcome the labtob incident to have a solid season, he's overcome the big drop from top 10 to 22, and had a great preseason, and summer league, and got in shape. I'm high on this guy.


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## EwingStarksOakley94

ehmunro said:


> Then we're not talking about a lottery talent. To be brutally frank, he's no better than the third best point guard in the 2006 draft, and that position could drop depending on how Minnesota uses Foye. Lowry & Rondo will be better than Ma Williams. And to be brutally frank, **edit** They did need guys that could play defense, and in June had no idea that they'd be landing Jeffries.


Come on man, did you really have to go there? I understand you're making a point which I totally agree with, but there are plenty of analogies to use without being offensive. Please, just consider what you're saying before you post it next time.


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## E.H. Munro

Hey, we Catholics are allowed to make fun of our own church. :biggrin:


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## EwingStarksOakley94

ehmunro said:


> Hey, we Catholics are allowed to make fun of our own church. :biggrin:


I'm sorry man, I have to disagree. I know where your coming from, and usually I try to make light of things, but there's been many people hurt on both sides of this issue. I've been blessed to have known many inspiring priests, religious, and sisters in my life who have done amazing things for their communities and have given up their lives for something they genuinely believe in. The fact that they have to live under a microscope is a travesty. I have a priest friend who can't even go to watch his nephew's football game without being stared down with dirty looks and people questioning his being there.

Anyway, it just sucks all around. Those sickos really messed things up for a lot of people, and I just can't imagine the hurt inside the victims. I guess it's a purification process the Church is going through.

I apologize to all for being preachy, I really would never hijack a thread like this. 

Back to b-ball, LET"S GO KNICKS!


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