# My thoughts on the Chicago Bulls



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

The Chicago Bulls. Well I don't think they are doing a great job this year. And I will give my reasons.

1st: They don't play Chandler and Curry enough! Ok what the hell are the Bulls thinking? Amare on the Suns plays 29 mins a game, but Chandler are Curry don't even break 20 mins a game. And they are older than Amare. Even Kobe played 26 a game on a stacked Lakers team his second year. And Kevin Garnett played 39 mins a game his second season. Yeah some say look at Jermaine O'Neal. Well Jermaine was on a playoff team contending for a championship, and was the most talented basketball team in the NBA. And last time I checked the Bulls are not a playoff team, and are not contenders. So why are Chandler and Curry not player. Sure some say they are still learning, well I have no idea what the great drive is to get wins now. For the long run if I was a Bulls fan I would want to see Chandler and Curry freaking start all year almost. Getting Rose and Marshall is great. But why in the hell do they want to win now? Seriously, I would rather get the future of the team being Chandler and Curry and get them some PT to learn. Yeah they would suck, but who cares! It is a learning process they have to go through. And having the Bulls win 30-35 games this year is pointless in my book. Not to mention they are then almost taken out of the LeBron lottery as well! 

2nd: Jay Williams. As some of you have read on my Dajuan vs. Jay post I think the Bulls messed up big time picking Jay Williams. Sure he is a pretty solid young PG. But sorry the Bulls did not pick him because he was the most sound PG in the nation last year! They obviously picked him because he was a scorer for the outside, and could shoot the deep ball. But that is not the case to start off. Some say it is the triangle offense. Well I say it is Jay's lack of a true offensive game, and he can't create shots that well for himself unless he is wide open. Like I have said before the Bulls would be much more dangerous with Dajuan Wagner, even though I'm really glad he went to the Caves instead of the Bulls. And you know the Bulls were thinking scoring SG by drafting Williams because they have Crawford and could play him at the PG and Jay could guard the PG on defense and do the scoring on offense. But as you can see by Dajuan's and Jay's averages Dajuan is a much better scorer in the NBA and will be in the future.

3rd: Marcus Fizer. Please trade him, I beg you! Fizer way to talented to be sitting on the bench for the freaking Bulls. Sure he has ok numbers but really, where does he fit in with two great big men Chandler and Curry waiting in the wings? I sure hope they trade away Fizer because he could average a least 15+ points and 6-8 rebounds on another team. I think he is a waste being on Chicago.

4th: Eddie Robinson, what they hell were they doing signing him? Yeah he has been injured but even if he was healthy, when could he get PT? He is a great athlete and a fine slasher, but where does he fit in? They have Rose, Chandler and Marshall play the SF at times during games, and were does Eddie fit into that? He probably thought he would be a backup when he came to Chicago, but in reality he is probably the 3rd or 4th string. Because he can't play SG or PF.

5th: And I'm still questioning the (Rose, Best) for (Miller, Artest, Mercer) trade! Seriously, Best is not even on the team anymore. Sure Rose is a very good veteran to get, great scorer and leader. But is he really that good? Miller is a top 5 center in the East but I do see why they let him go. Artest on the other hand is one of the true great defenders in the entire NBA, and has just as much leadership and fire as Rose has. Plus Rose would be better served as a PG, something the Bulls don't want him to player, and just another reason why Jay's in-ability to score is weakining the Bulls. And Mercer is another fine SG. So if you break it down, the Bulls traded Mercer and Artest for Rose, and Miller for Best? Miller again I see why the let him go. But Artest and Mercer, to pretty young SG's, and Artest is a great player now on Indiana. I just don't think it was a fare trade, the Pacers really when to the bank on that one! Just look at the success they have now!

6th: My last one is just personal opinion. I don't think Bill Cartwright is a good sign for coach of the Bulls. I mean he is a ok coach, but I think the Bulls should build for the future not just teaching young kids. Yeah Cartwright's personality is clam and he will not yell at those young players that much. But I think the Bulls need a mentality, and with Cartwright they don't have one. I think they should have a good up and coming young coach and use him. They need to start building a identity, and **** the TRIANGLE!!! They will never be the Bulls of old, they need a new style. I think there coach needs to be more firy and aggressive. Heck even Memphis has a better coach. But that could also be a showing of upper management. And Jerry West obviously know his coaches better than Krause. If you want a coach that will teach Memphis has they guy. And I think the Bulls will obviously throw Cartwright out the window in 3-4 years once they get good. I just think they should stick with a good young guy, and not just a intern...


In Conclusion, here are possible lineups the Bulls missed on.

*Now:*
PG Williams
SG Hassell
SF Rose
PF Marshall
C Curry

*Could have been:*
PG Crawford
SG Wagner
SF Rose
PF Chandler
C Curry

PG Crawford
SG Wagner
SF Artest
PF Chandler
C Curry

PG Crawford
SG Williams- if he could score
SF Artest
PF Chandler 
C Curry

PG Rose
SG Williams- if he could score
SF Marshall
PF Chandler
C Curry

PG Rose
SG Wagner
SF Marshall
PF Chandler
C Curry

And notice that I only changed around PG/SG/SF spots, because I believe Curry and Chandler should start all year. Not on and off, and not one plays, one sits. They both have to play together and get experience. Sure Bulls fans want to see wins, but if they keep sitting those two young players all year. It will take them that much longer to be great.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> The Chicago Bulls. Well I don't think they are doing a great job this year. And I will give my reasons.
> 
> 4th: Eddie Robinson, what they hell were they doing signing him? Yeah he has been injured but even if he was healthy, when could he get PT? He is a great athlete and a fine slasher, but where does he fit in? They have Rose, Chandler and Marshall play the SF at times during games, and were does Eddie fit into that? He probably thought he would be a backup when he came to Chicago, but in reality he is probably the 3rd or 4th string. Because he can't play SG or PF.


Actually - neither Marshall nor Chandler have played one minute of SF so Robinson is the only true back-up sf. (Maybe Marshall has at the very end of close games but it has not happened very much). Sometimes they have Hassell do it but it's not pretty. Lately he has Robinson come into the game and moves Rose to SG when Hassell is in foul trouble or needs a break. I believe it's BC's attempt to shorten up the rotation.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Well Marshall played SF on Utah, and also Chandler is "projected" to be a SF in the future. Something I think is bull crap, but he is projected as one.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

I've heard that about Chandler but I asked that question to Mike McGraw (in the Mike McGraw Q&A) and he said he didn't see it happening. 

Sometimes I wish Marshall would play SF with Tyson and Eddy on the court together so that they can imprive but right now I think they're playing it well. If this year is like last year, Tyson and Eddy will play a lot more later in the season. We shall see...

Also - Amare is older than both Bulls guys but he is only a rookie.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

First, welcome to the Bulls' board. I suspect your contributions will be most excellent and well received.

Amare is able to develop faster because he is playing in a lineup with veterans. I cannot stress this factor enough. Consider how Marbury, Penny, Gugliotta, Johnson, Outlaw, and Marion can help make up for the rookie mistakes Amare makes, while there is nobody other than Rose and Marshall on the Bulls to do likewise for our guys.

When you put Chandler, Curry, Hassell, and JWill on the court at the same time, as the Bulls did for the first 14 games, there's nobody with a real clue about playing the NBA game. In fact, every one of those 4 players looked like they were regressing rather than progressing in their games. That's one rookie and 3 second year players, two are teenagers (well, turn 20 this year).

Cartwright switched to a more veteran look by rotating both Chandler and Curry at the C position and inserting Marshall in the lineup. It took just a few games for the reality to set in - the team played better together AND the young guys were getting the same minutes as before. The team competed in games they ended up losing by 10+ points; the scores are deceiving as the Bulls would pull to within 4 points with 2 minutes left and give up a bigger lead with sloppy play at the end.

It is interesting to watch the development of both Curry and Chandler. Chandler is a California boy living away from home in Chicago. Curry is living at home, or at least near his home, and family - he's a Chicago boy. Of the two, Chandler is clearly more advanced. Both are inconsistent in their play, but Chandler looks like he can be a real contributor for much of this season, while Curry looks very inconsistent from game to game and looks like a longer term project.

Then there's the losing factor. We drafted a wonderful player in Brand. After being on a team that lost a huge number of games, and was playing a lot of young guys, he whined and complained and made it pretty clear he would bolt for FA first chance. So he got traded.

The Bulls dumped the worst coach in NBA history for Bill Cartwright, who was an awesome player before injuries, a solid contributor to the Bulls' first 3-peat team, an assistant coach to the best coach in NBA history (Phil Jackson), and who is a 7 footer who played with Ewing in a twin towers scheme. Of all the people in the world, if he doesn't want to play the two teenagers, it should speak volumes.

Cartwright's intent is clear at this point. He's developing JWill by consistently playing him 30 minutes per game. He's tried giving the teenagers starting minutes against the best players in the NBA and every player on the team suffered. He's moved to the veterans and more experienced players and the team is playing defense for the first time in years and is giving the youngsters the taste of winning ball games. The 2nd unit is doing its job and holding or extending leads, for the most part.

It's only been 5 games now, but since Fizer's been getting regular minutes, the team has won 4 of 5, losing only to Detroit and beating a top team, Boston. You are right, he was wasted on our bench, but in our lineup, we appear to win. It looks to me like he's the missing factor in making us a team that wins ball games.

I as a fan am tired of losing. Four seasons of about 20 wins per is enough! At some point we have to roll the dice and try and win like an NBA team is supposed to, and to develop young players into NBA players like NBA teams do.

Cheers


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Chandler will never play the 3. He's more likely to steal minutes from Curry at center (which he has been doing lately) than play the 3. He will make a very good 4 or 5 one day in this league.



VD


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Hey I never said Chandler would play the 3, other did, I'm just giving the message.



> Cartwright's intent is clear at this point. He's developing JWill by consistently playing him 30 minutes per game. He's tried giving the teenagers starting minutes against the best players in the NBA and every player on the team suffered. He's moved to the veterans and more experienced players and the team is playing defense for the first time in years and is giving the youngsters the taste of winning ball games. The 2nd unit is doing its job and holding or extending leads, for the most part.


 Well then by that logic the Bulls are going to build around Jay Williams. And in my book that is not the way to go. You build around the best players, and Jay Williams is NOT the Bulls best player, and will not be the best in the future. Curry and Chandler are the future so play them. 

Sure as a Bulls fan you want to win, but in the long run, when Curry and Chandler get older they will develop slower than they should because they never got the time when they were young. Yeah he might not want to play young guys, but the Bulls are not exactly going for a NBA title here! So I say who cares if you throw away the season, even though I think it is very valuable to get young players in the games and EXPERIENCE losing. It helps build fire inside of them. 

It is just my opinion but I think they are making a big mistake by not playing Chandler and Curry more.

Just look at Cleveland, they are playing Miles, Wagner, and Davis all the time. Sure Miles and Davis have some experience but both still are young. And I think the Caves are in a way better position than the Bulls when looking toward the future. Sure the Bulls have a better record this year but in the long run *who cares!*


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Bulls are building around their best player. That would be Jalen Rose.

In the last 5 games, he's averaging about 25ppg, 5 ast, 5 reb, and playing fine defense (look at the box scores at who he guarded).

Neither of us can predict the future, but we can look at the past. The situation you describe for the Cavs and propose for the Bulls is there for us to see in the Clippers.

Cheers


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

You really think there best player is going to be Jalen Rose in 3-5 years? I'm looking into the future, not the present. Because obviously the Bulls are looking into the future as well because they drafted two high school prospects!


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*JWill playing 30 minutes a game...*

b/c he is the best PG on the roster. 

Curry is being outplayed by Chandler, Marshall and Fizer. So limited run for EC.

Fizer improved more by sitting out than by playing. I don't see why the same can't be true for Curry.

The entire team will be in better spirits if they play competitive ball than if they are getting their butts whipped and certain players are deemed as receiving entitlement minutes.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Well then by that logic the Bulls are going to build around Jay Williams. And in my book that is not the way to go. You build around the best players, and Jay Williams is NOT the Bulls best player, and will not be the best in the future. Curry and Chandler are the future so play them.
> 
> Sure as a Bulls fan you want to win, but in the long run, when Curry and Chandler get older they will develop slower than they should because they never got the time when they were young. Yeah he might not want to play young guys, but the Bulls are not exactly going for a NBA title here! So I say who cares if you throw away the season, even though I think it is very valuable to get young players in the games and EXPERIENCE losing. It helps build fire inside of them.
> ...


Few quick things Ozzy:
1) Jay Williams is a PG, period. This isn't Duke and there's no coach K around to run a spread drive-n-dish offense. He has been playing well as of late, especially defensively. Also, he's taken big shots in 4th quarters of some of our recent wins... showing his willingness to take the big shot. Jamal, whom I know you are fond of, will be earning his minutes to back up Jay and eventually at the 2 (provided he bulks up a bit).

2) Playing Curry AND Chandler together this year has looked atrocious. Plain and simple, BC has set forth a credo of 'playing defense and rebounding' as the key to getting some burn in games. Tyson has responded and played strong as of late. Eddy is still struggling to play aggressively and stay interested on defense. Hence, he isn't getting as much minutes. Playing them together? They're not ready for that just yet. 

3) I understand the need to play young players and give them minutes, but at what cost? These kids don't need to 'experience losing' Ozzy.. the Bulls have been doing that pretty consistently for the past 4-5 seasons. The kids need to learn how to play hard, earn their minutes, and yes... win some ballgames. Losing just breeds more losing.

For the record, I'm not worried about Tyson. His defense alone will ensure him a long career in this league. As for Eddy, he needs to show some more heart and interest in games. There are no entitlement minutes in this league... he needs to learn that.



VD


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Yes, I think their best player in 3-5 years is going to be Jalen Rose. Certainly in 3 years - he'll be just 32. You can look at lots of 32-year-old players who were harldy any different than their peak years. I've been through that exercise... but look at the career stats for guys like Pippen, Reggie Miller, etc., etc., especially at age 32 and vs. their typical career numbers.

But there's nothing wrong with developing younger players along the way. If I have any one criticism of Phil Jackson, it's that his teams (Bulls and Lakers) aged together and there was no young talent in the wings to take over.

The Clippers are struggling to be a .500 team. If we struggle THIS YEAR to be a .500 team, we'll be several years ahead of their rebuilding program. AND we have a bona fide star in Rose; something they don't have. They do have Elton Brand, but check the stats and see how Marshall and Brand compare.

Cheers


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I've gotta disagree with ya Ozzy.

Player development isn't just about getting minutes on the floor. Those minutes must be earned and if there are some 20-year-old players who just haven't put it all together yet, then they need to sit. Losing breeds losing. You say that losing will light a fire in a player... Losing can also take that fire away. Especially with too much losing over a short period of time.

Remember, Curry and Chandler (and even Williams) have never really experienced the amount of losing that they have over the last season and a quarter (a quarter season for Williams who has already lost more games this year than he did in three years at Duke). It's got to be difficult to be the BMOC in HS or College and then drop off the face of the earth to a perpetual loser like the Bulls have been over the last 4+ seasons.

Just as a player needs to learn how to play the game, they need to learn how to win at this level. You don't do that by throwing them to the wolves. I could make the argument that just playing these guys heavy minutes now may actually hinder their development. They've gotten to where they are because they were so much more physically gifted than their competition. They never had to learn the basics of how to play the game because they could simply physically dominate the other team. Now they are playing against their equals and their physical gifts aren't enough. Now is the time to teach them how to utilize those gifts and that takes coaching and instruction. That means pulling them out of a game in the middle of the first quarter to explain to them what they've been doing wrong since the opening tip and watching a vet (Marshall) do it right.

Curry and Chandler will be just fine and I like what Cartwright has done with separating the two of them on the floor.

There's more than one way to skin a cat and there certainly is more than one way to develop a young NBA player. Darius Miles hasn't improved much with his playing time and this is his third year in the league now. For every Kobe or KG, there's a Rashard Lewis or Jermain O'neil. For every fast riser there's a slow developer. Only time will tell...


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

losing breeds losers.

you dont want to GIVE tyson and eddy entitlement minutes, you want them to EARN their playing time, we're not just developing their talent and skills, we're also developing them as people, you want them to be hard workers who do what it takes for winning, 

playing them for the sake of playing them and putting winning basketball aside breeds _stat-players_, when you play for a losing team, the only thing to play for is your own personal statistics, *players become to conscious about their personal stats ala ron mercer*. its even more dangerous when you have your future cornerstones turning into stat-players.

Everything you do has to be in the context of winning basketball games, not just in the future, but NOW. ESPECIALLY when you have young developing talent IMHO

Losing Breeds Losers and Stat-players

Winning Breeds winners.

now if tyson and eddy were getting DNP-CD's like last year then that would be a different story.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

You're right about alot of things OZZY, but I really disagree with your assessment of Williams. Based on what I saw from him in college and so far this year, I really think he's gonna be a special player. He's finally starting to come out of his shooting slump now- he doesn't take nearly as many shots as Wagner, but he generally hits them when it matters most. The biggest things I have seen out of him, however, are his passing and penetrating. He's got truly rare quickness, both in his feet and in his hands, and is excellent at penetrating and either scoring or drawing a foul (often both). I don't necessarliy view him as being better than Wagner in the future, but I do see him being at least as good.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

*Welcome to the board, Ozzy!*



> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> 
> 1st: They don't play Chandler and Curry enough! Ok what the hell are the Bulls thinking?


Entitlement minutes lead to complacency. Productive minutes lead to player maturation. Chandler is already starting to display the merits of this approach. Curry will after he puts a Band-Aid on his feelings.



> 2nd: Jay Williams. As some of you have read on my Dajuan vs. Jay post I think the Bulls ****** up big time picking Jay Williams.


Jay is a smart guy and a team player. Don't know enough about Wagner to comment. Jay is putting the team first and himself second. Don't know enough about Wagner to comment. Jay is a winner, has always been a winner, and will be a winner again. Skills or no, winners hate to lose. Jay will do whatever it takes to win. Is Wagner a winner? Don't know enough about Wagner to comment.



> 3rd: Marcus Fizer. Please trade him, I beg you!


Truly talented players always find a way to co-exist. Until a week ago, I was also begging for a Fizer trade. Now, though, he's showing something we haven't seen before. Not stats, by the way, he's shown gaudy stats before. Now he's showing toughness. He's showing humility. He's showing assertiveness. This is being reflected in a string of nice stats, but the stats are mere symptoms. It looks like Marcus has discovered that he really loves to play basketball. If this is true, then we should hold onto him. He needed a Cartwright benching to make this happen.



> 4th: Eddie Robinson, what they hell were they doing signing him? Yeah he has been injured but even if he was healthy, when could he get PT? He is a great athlete and a fine slasher, but where does he fit in?


Hassell plays a ton of minutes because we have no one better. Ditto Hoiberg. I'm a huge fan of both, but recognize that we could upgrade. Do we really want Rose averaging 48mpg all season. If ERob could play, we could easily slot him 25mpg.



> 5th: And I'm still questioning the (Rose, Best) for (Miller, Artest, Mercer) trade!


Me too. I take solace in the fact that w/o Rose we may not have Marshall. I was hoping BMiller *would* be a bust, and that Ron-Ron the Rott *would* be a head-case. I couldn't justify the trade then, and am not sure I can justify it now. If anything, it may have been one of the few win-win trades ever pulled off. Time will tell..... 



> 6th: My last one is just personal opinion. I don't think Bill Cartwright is a good sign for coach of the Bulls.


Please read anything you can find in print about Phil Jackson as a rookie coach with the Bulls. Big Bill is making mistakes in some things (rotation, line-ups, etc.), but is a big winner in institutional philosophy. No entitlement minutes. Development minutes need to happen in practice. Set specific goals for each player to determine playing time.

Big Bill inherited a team in disarray. Before the five players on the court can begin working together, they must know each others strengths (and weaknesses). Before they can know each others strengths (and weaknesses), they must know their own. It appears that Big Bill has set specific goals for each individual, as well as a team focus on defense and rebounding. Sticking to his guns about this, no matter how unpopular, is what is going to fuel the surge of these young Bulls in the second half of the season.



> In Conclusion, here are possible lineups the Bulls missed on....


None of those line-ups included as many players who can pass/score/rebound/create/defend as the current line-up. This cannot, of course, be proven. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Thanks for posting such a thorough analysis about a team for which you are not a fan. I look forward to your posts in the future.

Peace!


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Welcome to the board, Ozzy!*

What some of you guys may not like especially those basketball purists is that this is a new century. It will be the Bulls fault if they dont play these guys enough because you know what will happen is, they get mad over minutes. They will find a team that will give it to them. And all the Bulls did was let them sit so they can be superstars on another team. The Bulls should really handle themselves carefully. Before you know it year 3 will be here and the rookie contracts only last 3 with an option for a 4th


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

*Re: Re: Welcome to the board, Ozzy!*



> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> What some of you guys may not like especially those basketball purists is that this is a new century. It will be the Bulls fault if they dont play these guys enough because you know what will happen is, they get mad over minutes. They will find a team that will give it to them. And all the Bulls did was let them sit so they can be superstars on another team. The Bulls should really handle themselves carefully. Before you know it year 3 will be here and the rookie contracts only last 3 with an option for a 4th


We've got them five years if we want them. So they suffer and stew in their anger at "unfair management" for a little while. If we don't handle them that way, they don't become winners. If they don't become winners, they leave anyway.

The only way to keep them is to make them into winners. The way to make them winners is to demand that they work to their abilities or sit them down. Once they start winning, they'll realize that this approach was necessary. If they don't start winning, or they don't recognize why the approach was used, then we don't want them after their contract is up anyway.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Welcome to the board, Ozzy!*



> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> We've got them five years if we want them. So they suffer and stew in their anger at "unfair management" for a little while. If we don't handle them that way, they don't become winners. If they don't become winners, they leave anyway.
> ...


I totally agree with what you are saying. But put it like this. Jermaine Oneal was mad he didnt get playing time and look at him now. Dont Portland wish they had him back. Toronto wishes they had TMAC back. So I cant neccesarily say that thats true


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Welcome to the board, Ozzy!*



> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> I totally agree with what you are saying. But put it like this. Jermaine Oneal was mad he didnt get playing time and look at him now. Dont Portland wish they had him back. Toronto wishes they had TMAC back. So I cant neccesarily say that thats true


You make good points, *BEEZ!*, but in both cases the team gave up on the player..... not vice-versa. Portland traded O'Neal to Indiana. Toronto decided they would not re-sign TMac. Had the teams chosen to keep their players, they would have found a way to do so.

More appropriate examples might be players like Rashard Lewis (Seattle) and Tim Thomas (Milwaukee) who had fewer minutes but are still with their original teams.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

D'oh! I guess TT actually started with Philly. Bad example. How about Kobe? 15.5mpg his first season, 26 his second. Both of our kids should be averaging that by the end of the season.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Truly talented players always find a way to co-exist. Until a week ago, I was also begging for a Fizer trade. Now, though, he's showing something we haven't seen before. Not stats, by the way, he's shown gaudy stats before. Now he's showing toughness. He's showing humility. He's showing assertiveness. This is being reflected in a string of nice stats, but the stats are mere symptoms. It looks like Marcus has discovered that he really loves to play basketball. If this is true, then we should hold onto him. He needed a Cartwright benching to make this happen.


Post of the week! I agree totally- I too was way down on Fizer up till this week, but he looked downright impressive last night- let's see if he can maintain the effort.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

*Thanks Louie.....*

......I'm blushing.......

:wave:


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Chandler IS playing his way into more minutes. 

If Curry can't play his way into the lineup in 5 years, he's a bum.

If they both play their way into the lineup within a couple of years, and the team wins, I doubt they're going to leave to go to a loser.


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## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> You're right about alot of things OZZY, but I really disagree with your assessment of Williams. Based on what I saw from him in college and so far this year, I really think he's gonna be a special player. He's finally starting to come out of his shooting slump now- he doesn't take nearly as many shots as Wagner, but he generally hits them when it matters most. The biggest things I have seen out of him, however, are his passing and penetrating. He's got truly rare quickness, both in his feet and in his hands, and is excellent at penetrating and either scoring or drawing a foul (often both). I don't necessarliy view him as being better than Wagner in the future, but I do see him being at least as good.


As a rookie, Williams has been given the responsibility of controling the ball and initiating the offense. Not many rookie PG's get thrown into the mix like that right away. Baron Davis, a player some like to compare Jay to, wasn't ready as a rookie. And Jay is already puting up numbers comparable to Gary Payton during his _second year_ in the league. Now, I don't think you'd get many arguements if you were to proclaim both of those players the stars of their teams.

In other words, for a rookie Jay Williams is doing just fine. Anyone who says after 24 games that the Bulls screwed up big time by picking Jay Williams is being extremely presumptuous. If Chicago is fortunate one day to have the next Baron Davis or Gary Payton running the club I don't think anyone will consider drafting him a _big time_ mistake.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Ok this might take a little while. First off don't every compare Jay Williams to the great Gary Payton and Baron Davis. One, Baron is way more phyiscial than Jay, and Gary is worlds ahead of Jay on defense, and I doubt Jay will ever become a great defender.

Other comments. Everyone on this board is talking about earning your time as a player. And all this "losing breeds losers" and "Jay has always been a winner". I think that is such a load of dog crap! Winners? What the hell is a winner, is it a successful college player? Winning most of the time in college is thanks to the coach and they system he put it. It is not always a mythical spirit of a winner than makes teams into champions, no matter how much some sports fans want to believe it. Just because Jay won in college doesn't mean ****. Christian Laettner was a "winner" in college, does that mean it carries over and makes every team he is on a winner? No! I think your getting "winner" and competitor mixed up. To me it doesn't matter if you won in college, it matters if you are a competitor and cared about losing. Dajuan is a competitor, and you can tell it when you watch him play, Jay on the other had sometimes doesn't go all out. He might be to nice to really get after it. Sure he did it in college, but again that was more to do with coach K. and motivation than Jay's all world talents. Just look at Duke players in the NBA, the only really great one is Elton Brand, that is basically it! 

But to say playing Chandler and Curry will make them into losers is a pathetic come-back to me. Seriously, you really think they will become stat players by doing that? How? Those two are both competitors, and yeah it could be "feeding them to the dogs" but who cares. See what they are made of. I'm not saying 36 mins a game, but a least more that freaking 20! 

And I think BEEZ said it best, you have to get your young players involved in the team so they feel part of it. When Curry and Chandler are not even on the floor during wins they get, well I don't think they get much out of it. What would you want, being on the court when your team wins, or sitting on the bench wishing you could help your team win. 

All of the points are pretty good. But it just seems to old fasion to me. Saying young players should earn their time, blah blah blah. If young players should earn their then UNC would have 2-3 wins, Wagner would not be ripping it up, Kobe would never had experience failure during playoff games, and LeBron would sit on the bench next year!

Good points but I think they are not, up to the times....


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Ok this might take a little while. First off don't every compare Jay Williams to the great Gary Payton and Baron Davis. One, Baron is way more phyiscial than Jay, and Gary is worlds ahead of Jay on defense, and I doubt Jay will ever become a great defender.
> 
> Other comments. Everyone on this board is talking about earning your time as a player. And all this "losing breeds losers" and "Jay has always been a winner". I think that is such a load of dog crap! Winners? What the hell is a winner, is it a successful college player? Winning most of the time in college is thanks to the coach and they system he put it. It is not always a mythical spirit of a winner than makes teams into champions, no matter how much some sports fans want to believe it. Just because Jay won in college doesn't mean ****. Christian Laettner was a "winner" in college, does that mean it carries over and makes every team he is on a winner? No! I think your getting "winner" and competitor mixed up. To me it doesn't matter if you won in college, it matters if you are a competitor and cared about losing. Dajuan is a competitor, and you can tell it when you watch him play, Jay on the other had sometimes doesn't go all out. He might be to nice to really get after it. Sure he did it in college, but again that was more to do with coach K. and motivation than Jay's all world talents. Just look at Duke players in the NBA, the only really great one is Elton Brand, that is basically it!


All right OZZY, time to come clean. Did you really come to the Bulls board to enlighten us with your unbiased 'outside' opinion of the Bulls players? Or rather are you continuing your anti-Jay Williams propaganda that you've so vehemently spewed since Jay was at Duke? I think its the latter my friend. Your opinion(s) of Jay are as biased as they get. And I'm supposed to believe that DaJuan is a 'competitor' and Jay is not? So Jay is a product of his system and his coach eh? Nothing could be farther from the truth. Any knowledgable fan that has seen Jay's first 20 or so games will conclude that his intangibles (leadership, competitiveness, and winning attitude) are some of his best characteristics.



> But to say playing Chandler and Curry will make them into losers is a pathetic come-back to me. Seriously, you really think they will become stat players by doing that? How? Those two are both competitors, and yeah it could be "feeding them to the dogs" but who cares. See what they are made of. I'm not saying 36 mins a game, but a least more that freaking 20!
> 
> And I think BEEZ said it best, you have to get your young players involved in the team so they feel part of it. When Curry and Chandler are not even on the floor during wins they get, well I don't think they get much out of it. What would you want, being on the court when your team wins, or sitting on the bench wishing you could help your team win.
> 
> ...


Wow so you've somehow managed to group Tyson and Eddy with the recent performances of LEbron, DaJuan, Kobe, UNC?, and that first year hot dog vendor at the UC. Whoa. How are we so sure these kids are going to be the next big thing? We don't. They are just as likely to be Jermaine O'Neal or Jonathan Bender (late developers) than KG or Kobe. And you know what? I'm gonna leave it to Bill C, someone who knows and has played the NBA game. My opinion, and that of uber Bulls fans everywhere mean very little in the long run.

How can you discredit BC for not playing Eddy and Tyson much... while he is giving major minutes to a rookie PG (31 minutes per game) and a second year SG/SF in Hassell (27 mpg)? BC is not shutting these kids out on purpose. The message has been sent to all the BUlls young players... play good D and hit the boards... and you'll get your minutes. Tyson has responded as of late... and hopefully Eddy will soon as well.

Go Bulls.

VD


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

*Ozzy, Ozzy, Ozzy,*

I'd like you to answer a hypothetical question in your completely unbiased opinion if you might...

Let's say your a young member of a pretty bad basketball team. You've been drafted straight out of High School and you've been labeled with the "potential" tag. You've already been through one season where you lost 80% of your games and you've started your second season on the same clip. You're playing 28+ minutes a game, but the team is losing by double-digits almost every night. Would you sacrafice your time on the court to, say, 15 minutes a night if it meant that your team would win about 40% of its games by an average of 5 or so points per game? Which would you rather have - 28+ miinutes a game and lose quite often, or 15 minutes a game and win more often?

You see, losing does breed losing. Ever heard of a guy called Elton Brand? Of course you have. You mentioned him in your last post as the only decent player comming out of Duke. Do you know that he was thankful that the Bulls traded him to LA? Wanna know why? Because he had come to accept losing. He had lost that edge. It no longer bothered him that his team was just whooped by 20 points. Constant losing does take something out of a player and it's damn hard to get it back.

Just because DaJuan Wagner dropped 28 last night, but the Cavs still lost by 20, doesn't mean a whole lot.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

Well said, VD.


> Dajuan is a competitor, and you can tell it when you watch him play, Jay on the other had sometimes doesn't go all out. He might be to nice to really get after it. Sure he did it in college, but again that was more to do with coach K. and motivation than Jay's all world talents


I have never seen Jay not "going all out"- I think he's tried to play more controlled, efficient ball this season than at Duke, but he's always the one coming up w/ big steals and rebounds down the stretch, attacking the rim, and hustling after loose balls. He is reputed to have the best work ethic on the team. I don't think Jay's heart and competiveness is really an issue.


> Ok this might take a little while. First off don't every compare Jay Williams to the great Gary Payton and Baron Davis. One, Baron is way more phyiscial than Jay, and Gary is worlds ahead of Jay on defense, and I doubt Jay will ever become a great defender.


Why not? I think I've brought this up before, but John Salley, a former teammate of Isaiah Thomas's, has stated that he thinks Jay will be as good as or better than Isaiah. I think most on here would agree that Isaiah was a better pg than Payton or Davis, so why not compare Jay to them? Certainly this is all speculation- Jay hasn't done anything yet to mentioned in the same breath with them in terms of achievement- but talent-wise and intelligence-wise he certainly warrants the comparisons. Jay isn't as physical as Baron, but he appears to be a good deal quicker and may even have slightly better handles (though that's debateable). Jay probably will never be as good a defender as Payton (greatest defensive pg ever IMO), but he may just become better in other aspects of the game.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Ok this might take a little while. First off don't every compare Jay Williams to the great Gary Payton and Baron Davis. One, Baron is way more phyiscial than Jay, and Gary is worlds ahead of Jay on defense, and I doubt Jay will ever become a great defender.


Facts? Arguing opinions is a great way to bruise your forehead, but doesn't help anyone resolve disagreement.



> Other comments. Everyone on this board is talking about earning your time as a player. And all this "losing breeds losers" and "Jay has always been a winner". I think that is such a load of dog crap!


Facts? Arguing opinions is a great way to bruise your forehead, but doesn't help anyone resolve disagreement.



> But to say playing Chandler and Curry will make them into losers is a pathetic come-back to me. Seriously, you really think they will become stat players by doing that? How? Those two are both competitors, and yeah it could be "feeding them to the dogs" but who cares. See what they are made of. I'm not saying 36 mins a game, but a least more that freaking 20!


I'm not in the camp who feels that "playing them will make them losers", but I do believe that basing their playing time on specific personal goals is a great incentive program to help them reach their full potential. Face it, the only leverage a coach has left is playing time. If the kids are playing with no fire (witness Curry), then they shouldn't be awarded playing time. Maybe we have differing philosophies here. Have you ever coached? ...or built a winning program from the ground up? ....taught? .....managed employees in business? The principles involved are all the same, and they are very sound. 

Big Bill won three NBA championships as a player. He played with the best player ever. He played under Phil Jackson, Doug Collins, Hubie Brown, George Karl and Red Holzman -- some of the best coaches ever. He was an assistant coach on two championship teams. He has a Master's degree in Organizational Development and Human Resources. I'm guessing he has an idea what he is doing.



> And I think BEEZ said it best, you have to get your young players involved in the team so they feel part of it.


Twenty minutes a game is not involved?! We have different ideas about what being involved is then.



> All of the points are pretty good. But it just seems to old fasion to me. Saying young players should earn their time, blah blah blah. If young players should earn their then UNC would have 2-3 wins, Wagner would not be ripping it up, Kobe would never had experience failure during playoff games, and LeBron would sit on the bench next year!
> 
> Good points but I think they are not, up to the times....


The times....... Old-Fashioned........ ??? Last time I looked, "old-fashioned" was winning championships. When has any of these "up to the times" clubs won a championship? Kobe's minutes in his first year were fewer than either Curry or Chandler. Kobe averaged 26mpg in his second season -- likely to be surpassed by both of our kids this season. Wagner is "ripping it up" -- in the loss column. Do you really think Cleveland is going to win soon? ....or that Wagner will be with them when they do?

*Player_____MPG (yr1)____MPG (yr2)*
TMac_______18.4________22.6
Kobe_______15.5________26.0
O'Neal______10.2________13.5
Lewis_______7.3_________19.2
Bender______5.4__________9.7
Harrington___7.6_________17.1
Kemp_______13.8________30.1
Garnett_____28.7________38.9
Kwame_____14.3________25.6
Curry_______16.0________17.5
Chandler____19.6________19.0

....there may be some preps-to-pros that I've missed, but the minute allotment doesn't seem too far off the mark here. Also, please notice that Garnett's game has not developed since his third year in the league. Similarly, Minnesota has not gotten past the first round of the play-offs since his arrival. Coincidence?

Sorry if I seem a bit "old-school", but "old-school" still seems to be winning championships. As soon as Cleveland, LAClip, Orlando, or Philly start winning championships by letting their star players "rip it up", then you will be able to post facts, rather than just preferences or opinions, and we can have an informed discussion.

Peace.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> Sorry if I seem a bit "old-school", but "old-school" still seems to be winning championships. As soon as Cleveland, LAClip, Orlando, or* Philly* start winning championships by letting their star players "rip it up", then you will be able to post facts, rather than just preferences or opinions, and we can have an informed discussion.
> 
> Peace.


uhhh Philly was just in the championship last year so that discredits that statement. By the way the last Bulls Championship was when Mike and scotty were there


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> uhhh Philly was just in the championship last year so that discredits that statement. By the way the last Bulls Championship was when Mike and scotty were there


This is my mistake....... I must have forgotten that Philly won the championship that year. Sorry.

There's no prize for runner-up. The Bulls are not interested in contending, but in winning. When Philly *WINS*, I'll retract my statement.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

You can state that I just went on here to keep the Dajuan vs. Jay thing going but I didn't. I just feel the Bulls are going at this all wrong. You call me bias? Well look at yourself, your all bias Bulls fans for the most part. All desperate to believe the the Bulls will be just fine and that Cartwright is the savior to the team. Well you can take it to the bank that when the Bulls to get good, Cartwright will be gone. Every here of Doug Collins? So I will get off the so called Bull bashing because this is obviously not the place. 

I just think the Bulls should but the franchise into the hands of Chandler and Curry. They are the future, and they are the reason the Bulls have any chance of being good in the future. Believe in the great PG Jay all you want. But remember he was "brought in" to get the ball to the franchise that is Eddy and Tyson...

It is obvious we have different philosophies about young players. I say players should play, they are talented so why not let them spread their wings and fly? Sure if he is using it as motivation go right ahead. But to not allow talent to grow is not the way to go. Then some say it would hurt there ego and become losers? Well I think they might need alittle wakeup call. And you say that sitting on the bench is sending the message to work hard. Well I feel they should work hard on their own. And how do you do that? Well you feed them to the dogs. Let them get their butt kicked. Then you rase the question, what are you going to do about it? That is the way I think they should go. Forget getting meaningless wins this year, wow, big accomplishment. Play the franchise players.


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> This is my mistake....... I must have forgotten that Philly won the championship that year. Sorry.
> ...



yep Philly came really close, they won one game in the series


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> You can state that I just went on here to keep the Dajuan vs. Jay thing going but I didn't. I just feel the Bulls are going at this all wrong. You call me bias? Well look at yourself, your all bias Bulls fans for the most part. All desperate to believe the the Bulls will be just fine and that Cartwright is the savior to the team. Well you can take it to the bank that when the Bulls to get good, Cartwright will be gone. Every here of Doug Collins? So I will get off the so called Bull bashing because this is obviously not the place.
> 
> I just think the Bulls should but the franchise into the hands of Chandler and Curry. They are the future, and they are the reason the Bulls have any chance of being good in the future. Believe in the great PG Jay all you want. But remember he was "brought in" to get the ball to the franchise that is Eddy and Tyson...


Questioning your motives may be a little over the top.

What we "biased" Bulls fans are doing is watching every game, following the development/progress of the teenagers and the team, and have suffered through 4 straight seasons where we threatend the mark for futility (most losses).

JWill is who we have. Like him or not, he is the PG. The minutes and performance proves this out.

Chandler and Curry ARE progressing. Curry played his best game after being benched for a couple previous. See? Sitting is better than playing meaningless minutes.

We're more than a full month ahead of last year's pace for victories. We have to win something like 15 of our next 58 games to beat it. It's looking pretty good on that front.

You can discount the effect of constant losing on the young players, if you like. It won't change any opinions of guys who think otherwise. We sat here and watched the guys start bickering over playing time (I'm talking guys like ERob and JCraw) when the team was losing and now we see guys starting to fill rolse and contribute to victories. We also saw our best players whine about the same thing (losing) last year and the year before.

Unfortunately, Bulls fans aren't interested in your 10-year rebuilding program ;-)


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## life_after_23 (Jul 24, 2002)

*Losing breeds losing....*

Playing the twin toddlers and getting whipped every day is going damage their confidence. 
Basketball is more of a mental game than a physical game. So, losing does breed losing. The twin toddlers will never learn what are crucial mistakes...and when not to make them.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

ok, we will just have to see how long it takes for the Bulls to be great again.....


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## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

Vin, you seem to know more about this guy than the rest of us. His rebuttals sound more like trolling than repartee or debate. 








I think I'll pass.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> Vin, you seem to know more about this guy than the rest of us. His rebuttals sound more like trolling than repartee or debate.
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, it's not fair to accuse OZZY of trolling. OZZY mentioned on the Everything But Basketball board that he admired posters who knew basketball well enough to have opinions and had enough ammo to back up those opinions. While I don't always agree with OZZY, I do think he fits his own definition of a good poster. I replied to him that if he wanted some intelligent basketball discussion, the Bulls board was the place to go. Shortly after that invitation he posted here.

At this late point in the thread, most of the points in OZZY's thread have been thrashed out and discussed, and no need to fully rehash points already taken. 

However, I will state that I believe the carrot and stick approach to playing time with the twin toddlers is a sound method. They will learn to a certain extent if you just throw them out there and let them play, but these kids need to develop the discipline that they weren't tought in a Division 1 program. Further, the carrot ans stick acts as a motivator for them to focus on specific developmental goals. In any event, what's the hurry? If they followed a "normal" path into the NBA they wouldn't be here yet anyway. Its not like their careers are wasting away just because they're not getting major minutes. Their time will come soon enough, and the sooner they get with BC's program, the sooner that time will come.

As to Jay, I think its absurd to be putting him down a month into his career. He's no Gary Payton? Well, OK. Maybe he'll never be the defensive stopper Payton is. Not many in the history of the NBA have been. And comparing a multi-time allstar to a rookie isn't exactly a fair comparison. Comparing a rookie "Glove" to Jay -- when did GP put up his first tripple double? I'd bet a dollar Jay did it first -- not that that means a lot, but just goes to show that such comparisons are meaningless, especially when evaluating a rookie in mid-December. Jay needs work on his J, needs to become more consistant with his FT's and needs to toughen up on defense (but of late he's showing signs of being a decent cherry picker). But for now, I'm satisfied with the job he's doing, all things considered, and I see improvement at a good pace.

Dejuan -vs- Jay? In a game of streetball, Wagner would put Jay through the fence like a clove of garlic through a press. But IMO Jay is going to develop into a better floor general. Jay is lightning quick, a great passer, has great slashing ability for a man his size, good court sense and excellent court vision. He doesn't have the flashy crossover that's gonna get the kiddies ooooing on an Inside Stuff segment, but watch and see, he's going to be a great point guard. He's no GP? Maybe not. If he concentrates on becoming a tougher defender, and under BC, you can be sure that that will continue to be a priority for development, maybe he becomes more of a Stockton type PG. I'd take that any day. Now, why does Jay play and not get the Curry/Chandler carrot and stick? I would suggest that playing under Coach K, Jay has developed the discipline necessary to stay with BC's program, listen and learn without need of further motivation.

In short, it seems that BC has determined that EC and TC won't develop into disciplined and skilled players by simply "letting them fly" and that they're better off learning in practice and getting PT as a reward for meeting goals and showing that they are focused where BC wants them focused. Like everyone, I want Eddy and Tyson to play 40 per game and show in those 40 minutes that they are superstars. But I'm willing to trust BC in his judgment that he's taking the best course toward developing the kids toward realizing their fullest potential.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> ok, we will just have to see how long it takes for the Bulls to be great again.....


They are showing flashes of greatness already, IMO. The victories against Orlando and Boston are not meaningless by any stretch of the imagination. And we will see even better this year (along with some bad stretches, too). And Tyson, Jwill and Eddy will all play a role in that improvement. But only as much as they put the team and the team's success ahead of their own highlights and stats.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Well let me ask you this, do you guys actually think the great Bill Cartwright will be here in 4-5 years? Sorry to say, but he won't, I think he was just brought in to teach two young talented big men how to play. It is not just luck that Bill player center, and both of the Bulls big men are in the frame of a center. And it is not luck that Bill is a soft spoken guy and will not rip into a player. 

Sorry to say, but I think you guys think Bill is like the savior of the Bulls. But I think he was only brought in to team Eddy and Tyson how to play the game because he is a good teacher. I don't think he will be around long enough to see succeed. 

So that is where my viewpoint comes from. Cartwright was brought in to teach to very young talented big men, and he is not doing that.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Well let me ask you this, do you guys actually think the great Bill Cartwright will be here in 4-5 years? Sorry to say, but he won't, I think he was just brought in to teach two young talented big men how to play.


I think you are under a couple of misconceptions regarding Bill Cartwright.

I do not feel he was brought in to help two talented big men. In fact, he was not "brought in" at all-- he was already an assistant coach on the Bulls' staff. If that's all they expected out of him, he could have fulfulled that role very easily as an assistant.

Bill may be soft-spoken because of his throat injury, but that doesn't mean he is a pushover. Far from it, from what I have heard. He seems to have made it very clear what he expects from each player and from the team as a whole, and they seem to be buying into it.

Bill Cartwright has long been a student of the game. He has experience both as an NBA player and assistant coach. He fully buys into the philosophy of playing the game that is favored by his GM and owner. He may or may not ultimately succeed, but in my opinion he will be given every chance to do so.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> The Clippers are struggling to be a .500 team. If we struggle THIS YEAR to be a .500 team, we'll be several years ahead of their rebuilding program. AND we have a bona fide star in Rose; something they don't have. They do have Elton Brand, but check the stats and see how Marshall and Brand compare.
> ...


We've been there and done that, and Brand is waaay better. The clips struggles have only been because of one man - Olowakantbe. 

But don't get it twisted the Clippers and the bulls are on two totally different levels sorry to be the one to have to tell ya! 

We'll be in the playoffs, while the excuses for tyson and eddie continue to poor in. Wilcox and Ely look considerably better than the baby bulls especially Ely. 
Ok my flame retardant suit is ready to be tested.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> Wilcox and Ely look considerably better than the baby bulls especially Ely.


LOL. Not that this is worth a response but ...

Ely best game in the NBA is either: 

7pt & 2 rebounds in 10 minutes.

6pt & 6 rebounds in 16 mins but he was 1 of 8 from the field.

Wilcox has scored more than 1 basket in all of 1 NBA game.

Curry and Chandler's' average game is better the Clipps' rooks best game.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Well let me ask you this, do you guys actually think the great Bill Cartwright will be here in 4-5 years? Sorry to say, but he won't, I think he was just brought in to teach two young talented big men how to play. It is not just luck that Bill player center, and both of the Bulls big men are in the frame of a center. And it is not luck that Bill is a soft spoken guy and will not rip into a player.
> 
> Sorry to say, but I think you guys think Bill is like the savior of the Bulls. But I think he was only brought in to team Eddy and Tyson how to play the game because he is a good teacher. I don't think he will be around long enough to see succeed.
> ...


i agree that BC is only here to develope the young guys which is why i believe he knows what he's doing, he was an NBA center for years, how many years have you been an NBA center?  i think BC knows 'a little bit' more about how to develope young bigs like tyson and eddy moreso then us message board fans.  

BC was a center for years in the NBA, *he KNOWS that you dont develope by being babied*, ESPECIALLY for bigmen, you want your bigmen to develope a mean streak, to have a chip on their shoulder whenever they hit the hardwood, ESPECIALLY for bigmen

if tyson and eddy were guards, then maybe your strategy would be best, but these are BIGmen, they HAVE to develope an attitude, if benching them does that, then thats what BC will do.

i belive that tyson already has that in him which is why i dont agree with benching him. but eddy is still a boy emotionally and mentally right now, he needs to develope an attitude that jermaine oneal developed by being on the bench all those years.

and OZZY no offense but i dont think you see the understand what developement outside of stats is, if we give tyson and eddy 40 minutes tonight against the raptors then tyson would score 24 points and pull down 17 rebounds, while eddy would score 30 points and pull down 11 rebounds, *i cant even count anymore how many times these guys were on pace to have "breakout games" in the first half of a game yet either didnt get the playing time or didnt get the touches in the second half. *

its not about so-called *"breakout games"*, or *statistical developement*, its about how much progress their making in certain aspects of the game

LAST YEAR tyson and eddy had games like Amare is having now  , so im not worried at all that they arent putting up pretty stats right now  

OZZY, i LOVE reading your posts on the General board, i hope you keep posting here dude!


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> LOL. Not that this is worth a response but ...
> ...


In his limited playing time Ely looks better, he knows how to move without the ball and has a legit post up game.

Oh yeah, what about that Jay-Jamal-Keyon comparison/statement I made earlier? Should we re-visit that or will someone finally admit Keyon is better!


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> In his limited playing time Ely looks better, he knows how to move without the ball and has a legit post up game.
> ...


he's not, he's a short shooting guard, jamal is a great passer


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> I think you are under a couple of misconceptions regarding Bill Cartwright.
> 
> ...


Nice post, Kneepad. Agree completely.

Everyone's entitled to his/her opinion, but these shouldn't be stated as facts. I don't KNOW whether Cartwright will be with the Bulls in 4 or 5 years. I suspect that Cartwright's longevity in his current job, just like every other NBA coach's longevity, will depend on how well his team plays vs. his management's expectations.

I do KNOW (through a friend who works with Bulls' management), that BC's Organizational Development education (Master's degree) and his psychological savvy had a lot to do with him getting the job, first as an assistant and later as the head coach. 

Cartwright is a very bright and thoughtful man, in addition to being a tough-minded and fierce competitor who has earned his NBA stripes. He has a terrific background for his current job and, according to my Bulls' contact, Krause/Reinsdorf are more impressed with Cartwright now than when they gave him the head coach job.

Net, this was never meant as a temporary gig for Mr. Bill.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> In his limited playing time Ely looks better, he knows how to move without the ball and has a legit post up game.
> ...


I like what they are letting kenyon do out in LA but in the process I think it is stunting his PG growth. You would no better than I would CLIP so give me some info


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> I like what they are letting kenyon do out in LA but in the process I think it is stunting his PG growth. You would no better than I would CLIP so give me some info


Its hard to say if its stunting his PG growth. He gets limited minutes and when he is on the court he is matched up with Miller or Jaric both who play/can play PG. So often he is used for his ability to create his own shot along with his ball handling ability, but not to necessarily pass. His shot has looked great and at times he has played like a pure PG driving and dishing. The problem is Kandi, he can't handle these dish off's and often the ball is just dumped into the post to Kandi.

One great thing about Keyon is that he plays with passion and intensity. And he is still recovering from that devastating high ankle sprain he suffered at the beginning of last year.

I'm gonna be at the game tonight against Portland, and I think tonight is gonna tell alot about where we are going, after the big win against the Spurs tonight could propel us into this upcoming easy schedule.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

im not too high on keyon but i love marco jaric, that guy is a stud

you make him a starter and he could probably drop 20 points 5 rebounds and 7 assists at either guard position. he is what we wish jamal would be like if he only bulked up, marco is ripped.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> im not too high on keyon but i love marco jaric, that guy is a stud
> 
> you make him a starter and he could probably drop 20 points 5 rebounds and 7 assists at either guard position. he is what we wish jamal would be like if he only bulked up, marco is ripped.


Totally agree! and he plays SUPERB defense he's the Euro Scottie Pippen. I hope they keep him around for a long time!


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> In his limited playing time Ely looks better, he knows how to move without the ball and has a legit post up game.


This will make it easier for you when Kandi walks and Sterling decides not to match Brand's and Miller's deals with another teams.

You are still better than the Bulls b/c you have Ely, Wilcox, Jaric & Dooling.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> We've been there and done that, and Brand is waaay better. The clips struggles have only been because of one man - Olowakantbe.
> ...


 

I think you misunderstood my intention. It wasn't a swipe at the Clippers, but rather an obvious observation. I have no intention of flaming you, either.

The Clips haven't developed their young players into stars, Brand was supposed to put them over the top LAST year, but didn't, they end up losing and key players end up somewhere else - and not exactly being stars there, either.

The Clips are in what year of rebuilding? 

The whole point is that this model is simply one I don't want the Bulls to follow, for the obvious reasons. I don't want the Bulls to follow Ozzy's program, because it IS the Clippers' old and failed program. <- this is the point.

I think there's been a captiulation by Clips management that their scheme of building a team is a failure. They traded for Brand and Miller, two guys who didn't need to be developed; guys who proved they were talented young NBA caliber players on someone else's team.

Now, go look at your sig, and then the standings. The Clips not only are below .500 as I stated, but they're in 10th place in the division. For your sake, I do hope the Clips make the playoffs... You're a good fan, and you deserve it.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> We've been there and done that, and Brand is waaay better. The clips struggles have only been because of one man - Olowakantbe.


Would this be the "Olowakantbe" who scored 17 on 8-12 shooting against the Spurs? Was it this meager scoring, the 18 rebounds, or the four blocked shots that really bothered you the most? LAClip sure could have gotten a more productive 38 minutes out of someone else.....

....I can see how this weak kind of game would drag Miller, Brand, Odom, QRich, Jaric and the *AMAZING DOOLING* straight into the toilet. Are they going to have to try to compensate for this kind of weak play all season? Now I understand how this talent-starved team with the "Olowak-albatross" around its neck has lost to Cleveland, the (Shaqless) Lakers, Denver, and Utah on route to their 11-14 record.

Thankfully we don't have to deal with such poor production from our center spot to pull down the efforts of our powerful line-up. We've been extremely lucky, though, to be only three wins behind these championship Clippers. I'll enjoy the ride while it lasts.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks.... I think you bulls fans deserve the playoffs too....  

One thing, the clips just got dre and hadn't even been able to have a training camp or preseason as a team. Their BEST player Odom is out (imagine if Rose was out) along with Maggette, and Q has been injured as well. I think that has alot to do with this slow start.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> Would this be the "Olowakantbe" who scored 17 on 8-12 shooting against the Spurs? Was it this meager scoring, the 18 rebounds, or the four blocked shots that really bothered you the most? LAClip sure could have gotten a more productive 38 minutes out of someone else.....
> ...


You've obviously never seen Kandi play much, and I'm sure he's hoping the rest of the GM's in the league haven't either or he'd never get the money he's after. and thats all he's after!
8-12 Wow...... he was 3-11 the game before that. 
The guy has a nack for turning the ball over and destroying momentum.
He's 7' and solid, yeah I hope he is capable of putting up 17 points and 18 boards once in a blue moon and against all people KEVIN WILLIS. 
The worst part about it is that Duncan just abused him....... and yeah I know what your gonna say TD does that alot........ but not like he did to Kandi, it was difficult to watch.
Kandi's game is exactly as you "describe" it WEAK. He only has a jump hook away from the basket, no offensive rebounding, no D, bad hands, couldn't make an effective pass out of the double team if his life depended on it, and has poor overall basketball instincts......... did I forget to mention he has A HIGHER TURNOVER RATE THAN MICKEY D'S.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> You've obviously never seen Kandi play much, and I'm sure he's hoping the rest of the GM's in the league haven't either or he'd never get the money he's after. and thats all he's after!
> ...


You're right, I have not seen Kandi play. I was looking at one game's stats, which looked pretty good. Also, 14ppg and 10rpg are not bad numbers for the season.

On the other hand, what you're describing is a 7' Marcus Fizer (before this last stretch of great play). I take your word. His poor fg% (especially for a 7 footer) speaks to what you are saying. If that's the case, I agree that I'd also like a different person in the post.

My point, I guess, was not to glorify Kandi, but to point out that you guys have some real players on your squad. Yet they fail to win ball-games. Does anyone know what offensive scheme the Clipp are running? I don't watch the Clipp, because I get tired of show-boating without a plan. They may have changed, but the standings wouldn't back that up. In the end (and the Clipps go a long way toward demonstrating this), all NBA teams wind up with very similar talent levels. Clearly some teams have much more talent than others, and then it doesn't matter what scheme you are running, the team with the talent wins. There is always going to be, however, a team with just as much talent. At that point, the talent which works it's scheme with the most discipline wins. This is what the Bulls are trying to instill in the calves right now.

Next year, when the Bulls have a better record than the Clipp, Brand will likely fire Falk and pray that some winning team can acquire him. He's too good a player and too classy a guy to be mired in mediocrity year after year.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> You call me bias? Well look at yourself, your all bias Bulls fans for the most part. All desperate to believe the the Bulls will be just fine and that Cartwright is the savior to the team. Well you can take it to the bank that when the Bulls to get good, Cartwright will be gone. Every here of Doug Collins? So I will get off the so called Bull bashing because this is obviously not the place.


Obviously we are all biased towards the Bulls, but that does not necessarily mean that we are letting that get in the way of the truth. Just cause we disagree with u does not mean we are ignoring the facts. U don't think you're biased too? 
Most of the posters on here are very, very realistic regarding the Bulls' future. If anything, alot of the posters here would be more inclined to underestimate the Bulls' talent than to overestimate it. 
And I don't think there are very many people here who believe that Cartwright is the "savior to the team". There have been quite a few threads calling for his firing. I myself have been baffled and frustrated by his substitution patterns and insistence on the an offensive system that does not suit this team (though that may come from higher up in the organization). I don't necessarily feel that he will be the team's coach when they are ready to make their run. Based on what I have seen from this team so far, I do feel that they are going to be a very good team in the future, and that Jay and Tyson Chandler will be stars. I'm not at all sold on Curry, but I do agree with u that he needs more PT in order to improve. If he's ever going to adjust to the speed on the NBA game, he needs to play. If it gets to the point where he's hurting the team, pull him, but I do think he could learn alot faster if he got more touches and minutes on a consistent basis.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

I could talk about this for days, but it is not really going to get anywere it already has not been.

So, to be honest, I don't know what else I can post about on this board. Because really I don't watch the Bulls all year or anything. All I could comment on are there prospects they have, and were I think the team is headed.

Love to keep debating topics but I really don't have anything else about just the Bulls.


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## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Well let me ask you this, do you guys actually think the great Bill Cartwright will be here in 4-5 years? Sorry to say, but he won't, I think he was just brought in to teach two young talented big men how to play. It is not just luck that Bill player center, and both of the Bulls big men are in the frame of a center. And it is not luck that Bill is a soft spoken guy and will not rip into a player.
> 
> Sorry to say, but I think you guys think Bill is like the savior of the Bulls. But I think he was only brought in to team Eddy and Tyson how to play the game because he is a good teacher. I don't think he will be around long enough to see succeed.
> ...


"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story." Words to live by, eh, Ozzy?

Prior to taking the reigns as head coach, Bill Cartwright spent six seasons as an assistant coach with the Bulls following his hiring on September 3, 1996. As an assistant under Phil Jackson (1996-98) and Tim Floyd (1998-2001), Cartwright helped the Bulls to the 1997 and 1998 NBA World Championships. ---NBA.com. Hmmm, lets see...on or about September 3, 1996 Tyson and Eddy would have begun the school year as 8th graders. I had no idea Krause had been scouting them that long, or that Bill would need nearly five years to prepare for their arrival. Now _that's_ forward thinking!


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Yeah ok Bulls fan, just wait 4 years and he will be gone.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

Did anyone mention that Amare Stoudamire is actually older than Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler? Just trying to correct Mr. Osbourne.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Damn boy, spell my freaking name right!


Also what does age have to do with anything. This is Amare's first year in the NBA and he is playing more mins than Tyson and Eddy. Both who have been in the NBA for 2 seasons, not one.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

I think it has already been stated that Amare is playing with a veteran-laden team who cover up a ton of his mistakes. The Bulls have basically two veterans and a bunch of kids. This has played a huge factor in Amare's developement.


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