# Chandler shows leadership(Sun Times)



## hps (Jul 23, 2002)

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-roman17.html

-QUOTE-
That's why he's in town instead of back at his mother's house in Riverside, Calif., where he spent some time after the Bulls' season ended April 15. Chandler made sure he was back at the Berto Center before June 1, which was the date John Paxson wanted all of his players to begin working out together.

Paxson isn't happy some players chose not to report, and neither is Chandler. Despite his age, Chandler is a veteran who will be entering his third season and wants to be viewed as a leader by his teammates and his organization.

''To establish that among teammates and among everybody in the building, the whole Chicago Bulls, you have to be around and show your face and show leadership,'' Chandler said. ''I could say one thing when training camp comes, but if they don't see me now, it would be like, 'Yeah, where were you at?'
-QUOTE-

I love Tyson's attitude!!!


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

it was a nice article. go bagaric!


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Two things stood out to me in that article besides the amazing leadership that Chandler is showing. One is that Paxson canceled his trip to France to see Mickael Pietrus. That means he will not draft him and keep him IMO. This means that either Paxson has decided who he will draft and keep(Wade?) or he has a trade in place( Memphis,Sacramento?). The second thing was that Chandler was complaining about not everyone being there prior to or by June 1 like Paxson wanted. Then it said that Crawford just got there Monday(June 16!) That is over two weeks past when Paxson wanted them there. Not good Jamal not good at all.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

I dont know if its good for Crawford I think pax's being irked is clearly directed at Rose and Erob.Didnt pax tell Rose he wanted him in Chicago to workout this summer and Rose still hasnt shown up even though Rose showed up for camp out of shape last year after not working out all summer .

We really dont now if Crawford was getting individual skill help these last 2 weeks.If he wanted to add post up skills to his game by working with Gp and gp was in seattle the last 2 weeks then by all means take those 2 weeks to get the instruction and then report .

Chandler said he wanted to workout with KG this summer if he didnt have the esophagitus he would be missing a couple of weeks as well.


As long as tyson,eddy,jamal,jay are all here in some capacity before the draft I think its all good.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Jeez, would you guys quit making excuses for Crawford! It's not a good thing... Tyson understood that... and apparently everyone else besides Crawford, Rose and ERob understood it. Just accept the fact that he showed up two weeks late.

Pax said June 1 and the article says he arrived Monday, which is June 16. That's clear cut.

It also sounds clear that Rose and ERob didn't show, which is also disappointing, especially after the committment to leadership lecture Rose got and the fact that ERob's continually looked disinterested.


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## Modena360 (May 22, 2003)

*If you guys listened*

to 670 today, they said that article says Pax is upste some people didnt show up and he named everyone who did show up. Guess who didnt?? Jalen Rose. Great leader


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Jeez, would you guys quit making excuses for Crawford! It's not a good thing... Tyson understood that... and apparently everyone else besides Crawford, Rose and ERob understood it. Just accept the fact that he showed up two weeks late.
> 
> Pax said June 1 and the article says he arrived Monday, which is June 16. That's clear cut.
> ...


Good post MikeDC!

This is nothing new for Tyson Chandler. We've seen a couple other articles noting his work ethic and wanting the leadership role on this team. I think its great b/c someone needed to light a fire under Eddy last year, and for the most part it was Tyson (through his improved play and vocal challenge of Eddy). Eddy needs Tyson. Throw in softspoken (and sometimes volatile) Jamal and... you come to see that Tyson would be best suited for that role.

Small disappointment with Jamal.... HUGE disappointment with ERob and Jalen. <b>The Bulls have a new GM</b> [repeat]. You don't start out the year by ticking off your new boss. That's just common sense.



VD


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## Qwerty123 (May 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Two things stood out to me in that article besides the amazing leadership that Chandler is showing. One is that Paxson canceled his trip to France to see Mickael Pietrus. That means he will not draft him and keep him IMO. This means that either Paxson has decided who he will draft and keep(Wade?) or he has a trade in place( Memphis,Sacramento?). The second thing was that Chandler was complaining about not everyone being there prior to or by June 1 like Paxson wanted. Then it said that Crawford just got there Monday(June 16!) That is over two weeks past when Paxson wanted them there. Not good Jamal not good at all.


Pietrus will supposedly hold a workout for any interested NBA teams when he gets over here, at least according to Rlucas. _If_ Pax is still interested, canceling the trip is a great chance to throw others off his trail.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Jeez, would you guys quit making excuses for Crawford! It's not a good thing... Tyson understood that... and apparently everyone else besides Crawford, Rose and ERob understood it. Just accept the fact that he showed up two weeks late.
> 
> Pax said June 1 and the article says he arrived Monday, which is June 16. That's clear cut.
> ...


Who is making excuses for Crawford ?Truth is you dont know what is going on neither do I .Who is to say he didnt have permission to be late, changing of agent stuff like that you just dont know ? Jay is going to a camp in Miami in July for a week would that be called leaving workouts early ?


*
Pax " I would like everyone to try to make it back by june 1st"

Jamal " Id like to come back on monday the june 16th because Ive gotten GP to work work with me on my post game and he will be back in seattle from june 1st -13th .Ill report after were done on that monday the 16th."

Pax "okay Ill expect to see you there"
*


How hard is that? Would that conversation or any conversation like that get reported in the paper ?You just dont know whether he had permission or not.

Its easy to accept the fact he showed up june 16th but can you accept the fact that you dont even know whether he was deemed late or not.


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## Benny the Bull (Jul 25, 2002)

I still think we are a big chance to draft Pietrus, since he is the player in the draft who seems to be the best fit (tough defender, ability to guard SG's & SF's). Drafting Wade means Rose at SF, which I don't like, unless one of the PG's is traded.

Paxson hasn't seen him play live, but has he seen many of the college prospects live? Was Paxson even in the job when the Final Four was on? I can't remember. He did say he would rely on BJ, the Euro scout and others for this upcoming draft, so Pietrus would still be a possibility.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Jeez, would you guys quit making excuses for Crawford! It's not a good thing... Tyson understood that... and apparently everyone else besides Crawford, Rose and ERob understood it. Just accept the fact that he showed up two weeks late.
> 
> Pax said June 1 and the article says he arrived Monday, which is June 16. That's clear cut.
> ...


excuses dont need to be made for JC there some pretty big leaps of faith going on here 

around the beginning of the month JC was working out at hoops the gym with Curry ,i remember it being mentioned a bit when there was that flap about grover kicking curry out ...but since then i cant say i know he's been working out or anything just that he hasn't been at the berto center and that is all thats been said in the article,and if it was o.k. for curry to be working out at hoops the gym ( i am assuming) why is it so bad for JC?

or coversely more blame should be sent in curry's direction 

which i dont believe it should unless pax himself is telling them to stop what they are doing and head over to the berto


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

In regards to JC situation he may have had permission to work out with GP but IMO I would rather have him here with Tyson,Eddy,Jay,etc than working with a guy who is not even on this team. Having said that if he indeed had permission then so be it. But back on topic it is becoming clearer every day that Chandler is going to be the face of this organization and he seems very willing and able to do it.


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## Qwerty123 (May 31, 2002)

It doesn't really matter much if Jamal was working out or not--he was expected to be at the Berto Center 2 weeks ago. His boss told him to do it. The reason for doing it wasn't just to start working out, it was to build cameraderie with his teammates. You can't do that in Seattle or wherever he's been.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

Where does it say Tyson nand eddy are working out ?Eddy had an eye injury just last week and Tyson JUST has a second or 3rd procedure for his esophagitus.Talk about overblown !!

Again will you say Jay abandoned his workouts to go to florida in july ?Did you say tyson and eddy abandoned there workouts when they went to bigman camp ?Shouldnt they have been there working out with bagaric who didnt go because hes there teammate?

No one knows what his boss told him you only know summarized parts from a newspaper article.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: If you guys listened*



> Originally posted by <b>Modena360</b>!
> to 670 today, they said that article says Pax is upste some people didnt show up and he named everyone who did show up. Guess who didnt?? Jalen Rose. Great leader


I'm not even commenting on JC anymore. As far as he is concerned, on this board, he is off my radar. 

What I really want to know is...who else did he name as having been there when they were supposed to be???


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

''When Pax said he wanted everybody back on the first of June, everybody should have been back a couple of days before the first of June. I understand how players feel because I want to go back and work out with my friends. But I think everybody should have come back before the first, worked out hard together, and then we could go our separate ways to work out.''

Dalibor Bagaric, Lonny Baxter, Fred Hoiberg and Roger Mason Jr. hardly took any time off after the season before they began lifting weights. Marcus Fizer is rehabbing his left knee, and Jay Williams and Donyell Marshall have made appearances. Jamal Crawford arrived Monday, and Eddy Curry has been at the Berto, but he's nursing a minor eye injury.




I assume this means Williams,Marshall,Curry were there by June 1st in addition to Bagaric,baxter,Hoiberg,Mason Jr, and Fizer while Crawford,Rose,Erob have decided other things are more important. (Ok that was mean but IMO not smart for those 3 players)


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

I wonder how many fans of other teams devote this much time and energy to which players show up for voluntary workouts?


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> I wonder how many fans of other teams devote this much time and energy to which players show up for voluntary workouts?


Lizzy, its unimportant but at the same time important. In 1-2 years these 'kids' will be asking Uncle Jerry for multi-million dollar contracts. Paxson needs to take everything into account... lest our team is filled with the likes of Tim Thomas, Austin Croshere, and Eddie Robinson. Oh wait, we still have that guy


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I agree VD a new GM comes in and is more than likely going to shake things up a little. One of the first things he says after getting the job is that he wants everyone in Berto by June 1st. Now call me crazy but I would have been like Tyson there a couple days before June 1st. Dont you want to show the new GM that you are committed to being a Chicago Bull and want to remain here?


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

I agree Lizzy lots of hoopla good and bad about nothing really.

basghetti80 I see you point as well I was just thinking that mybe Tyson figured he'd get here the 1st workout till minicamp next month and they all go there seperate ways til training camp.

Maybe Crawford plans on being here all summer to try to add the weight so he took the extra 2 weeks to take care any and everything he needed too because he knows he wont be taking a break this summer again .

Its 3 and a half months til camp and the draft hasnt even taking place yet way then enough time for everyone to get in there workouts.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

Yet fans here still talk about occasionally trading Tyson so how important is it to us fans if they show up?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> *
> Pax " I would like everyone to try to make it back by june 1st"
> 
> ...


Maybe Craw gave Pax a note from his mother or sister, too.  

The season ended April 15th. The date to return was June 1st. Pax said it. Chandler confirmed. Both have commented about their dissapointment in some of Chandler's teammates.

Pax *can't force* anyone to show up until Oct. If Craw or Rose or eRob play great next year, I guess that's cool. But, between the Berto and Hoops the Gym, Chicago is the best place in the world for our ballers to get better each summer. And if Craw was working on his post game with Payton, is this not something that Craw's agent would work to get a nice feel-good story about.

Chandler was there last summer and working on his game. He is there this summer. This is the guy that will lead our team going forward.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> I wonder how many fans of other teams devote this much time and energy to which players show up for voluntary workouts?


The reason that I pay close attention is this is how me 3-peated the first time. And our players are so young and undeveloped, they need the work as much or more than guys like Pippen and Grant.

And this is not to excuse the older guys, Pippen, Barkely and Akeem had a very early morning "Breakfast " workout session (I believe with Grover) to help them improve their game. I've already read one article this summer about TMAC working with a trainer every morning.

I really consider this issue to be as important as our draft pick. We have much more talent on our team than we will be able to acquire in the future so development needs to come from within.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Maybe Craw gave Pax a note from his mother or sister, too.
> ...


WHO CARES ?? You dont know the reason for Craw not being there no one does.They didnt name names and remember Craw just got a new agent 2 weeks ago maybe thats the reason he wasnt here.the fact that an article last week this time just said pax had been informed officially that tellem was jamals agent.Could pax have known what was happening and gave Craw 2 weeks to clear it up ?you just dont know .


The BERTO CENTER is not in chicago its like an hours drive from chicago thats why you never hear of any pros outside of chicago going there to workout.

Do you really think that if pax knew that Jamal was about to switch agents with contract negotiations about to start july 1st that Pax wouldnt give him 2 weeks to correct it especially when his agent (tellem)enjoys a close relationship with the bUlls.

Rose is probably a NO-SHOW/No call,no nothing just as he was last year .we didnt even hear about rose besides videos until the carjacking attempt last year.

With jamals switching of an agent and discussion set for 2 weeks away im sure pax was advised of everything thats going on.

talk about making mountains out of molehills :no:


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> talk about making mountains out of molehills :no:


Talk to Paxon and Chandler about making montains out of molehills. 



> Chandler said, ''When Pax said he wanted everybody back on the first of June, everybody should have been back a couple of days before the first of June. I understand how players feel because I want to go back and work out with my friends. But I think everybody should have come back before the first, worked out hard together, and then we could go our separate ways to work out.''


I guess it matters to Tyson.

The Berto Center is 30 miles north of Chicago. Not a bad commute if a $30M+ contract is on the line. 

As for changing agents, the agents go to where the players are for their meetings. It's not like Crawford has to go to Arm Tellum's office for 2 weeks straight.

This thread would be a lot shorter is everyone just acknowledged that it would be great if all of our players were working out at the Berto per Pax's requests. Instead, we get these incredible excuses (imaginary workout partners, changing agents, bad commutes, need more than 6 weeks off). I will give you and the other excuse-makers great credit for imagination.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> WHO CARES ??


Apparently you do by your repeated justifications for him.

Let's see, so far, you've said:

1. We don't really know if Pax was mad about it (despite Crawford not showing up until two weeks after Pax said to show up).

2. Maybe it's ok that he didn't show up (when asked) because he was getting help individually

3. The evil, controversy-stirring paper (funny, you don't have the same complaint when it comes to Jalen or ERob) just omitted to tell of a pre-arranged absence (complete with a whole fabricated discussion!)

4. You don't know everything that happened, so you can't draw conclusions! (yet, you can make up whole imaginary conversations  ).

5. Maybe Crawford felt justified in not showing up when asked because he's not going to take any breaks later

6. It's 3 and a half months till camp anyway, he didn't need to show up when Pax asked the team to because he'll have time later to get in shape.

7. Who cares anyway (well, apparently Pax does).

8. Somehow having a new agent means Jamal doesn't have to show up when everyone else does.

9. The Berto center is just a tough commute for Jamal and apparently everyone else who didn't get there on time. :laugh:

10. No matter what Jamal did, Jalen probably did something worse so it's ok.

-----------------------

Come on dude, that's *TEN, count 'em TEN!* seperate excuses you've pulled for the guy... about one measly article. It may or may not be a big deal internally (to the Bulls), but it's worth talking about rather than burying it under a sea of excuses. I'm not saying he should be shipped out or anything because of it... *I just find it interesting how people are so willing to fantasize about unending justifications for why one guy didn't show up but then bring the hammer down without a second thought on other players on the same team*


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

[puts on the Crawberry-colored glasses]

Man, he's [Jamal] the greatest! [sic]

[removes glasses]


I'm moving back to my Jay for PG stance since Jamal has again showed me not desire, drive or respect of the Bull organization.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

Actually it would be so much easier if people just wouldnt take a simple article and turn it into something more than it really is ...


last time I checked they didnt name names and 30 miles outside of chicago in our traffic is an hour ride.

getting a new agent is almost as much of a negotiation as signing a new deal but this thread would be WHOLE lot shorter if people wouldnt assume so much on snippets of info when they know they really dont have all the facts.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> Actually it would be so much easier if people just wouldnt take a simple article and turn it into something more than it really is ...
> 
> 
> ...


Paxson named names on the radio I believe.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Apparently you do by your repeated justifications for him.
> ...


and thats my whole point is that we dont KNOW but as usual around here people are quick to look for justification in the OBVIOUS bias towards jamal.I didnt say they were true only that youre not john paxson and while jamal arrived on the 15th you DONT KNOW where he was or why you only know that some players had pax upset that they werent here on the 1st.


It could be jalen? could be erob ?could be jamal ?you dont know if anyone else was here on the first besides tyson they couldve gotten here the 5th ,4rd who knows ?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> last time I checked they didnt name names and 30 miles outside of chicago in our traffic is an hour ride.


It probably takes a whole day to get there from Crawford's house in Seattle. :laugh:



> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> getting a new agent is almost as much of a negotiation as signing a new deal


http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31246&highlight=agent+crawford+curry

Dude, he hired his new agent on 5/21. How long should this slow Crawford down for? He wasn't even out a year when he tore his ACL.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> you dont know if anyone else was here on the first besides tyson they couldve gotten here the 5th ,4rd who knows ?


The article said that Craw got there yestday, right?

PLEASE TRY AGAIN.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

I just can't imagine Laker fans or Cavs fans sitting here and arguing for three pages about this. "OMG - Ricky Davis didn't show up according to the Cleveland Trib. It said that Boozer was mad." "Yeah - Boozer is there every day." "We should trade Boozer for a draft pick."

I'm looking at the positives. Tyson is there. Only stayed in Cali for a few weeks. Wants to get better. Wants to be a leader. After talking to his uncle after he was traded to Chicago I got really worried that he had no intention of staying on the Bulls long term. But seeing that he's back and working out and mad at his teammates shows that maybe he's a bigger warrior than I thought.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> Paxson named names on the radio I believe.


Well, which names were they!?


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, which names were they!?


I'm waiting for the repsonse from Modena:



> Originally posted by <b>Modena360</b>!
> to 670 today, they said that article says Pax is upste some people didnt show up and he named everyone who did show up. Guess who didnt?? Jalen Rose. Great leader


Krakken TO Modena:



> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> What I really want to know is...who else did he name as having been there when they were supposed to be???






I don't think Modena has been back to this thread yet, so I will wait for him to see.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

I am getting really frustrated with all of you guys here for failing to even mention the most important part about this whole thing: Where the **** is Trent!? <bangs on desk> :upset: Dam*it, Trent! This is really making me start to wonder, guys...whether Trent is dedicated enough to be our best defender anymore. I mean, being our best defender, Trent should have been here AT LEAST May 1st leading by example! You know what, trade him! That's right, trade Trent! I don't care if he's a FA. Sign him and trade him! I'm starting the official "Sign and trade Trent cause he shows no dedication" thread!


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> I am getting really frustrated with all of you guys here for failing to even mention the most important part about this whole thing: Where the **** is Trent!? <bangs on desk> :upset: Dam*it, Trent! This is really making me start to wonder, guys...whether Trent is dedicated enough to be our best defender anymore. I mean, being our best defender, Trent should have been here AT LEAST May 1st leading by example! You know what, trade him! That's right, trade Trent! I don't care if he's a FA. Sign him and trade him! I'm starting the official "Sign and trade Trent cause he shows no dedication" thread!


hassell is suppose to play in the summer league. But ueah, no mention of one of our starters from last year.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

I got into it last year with a couple of posters about Rose's physique and game play. I supported Rose. 
:sigh: I was wrong. 

Rose as team captain shouldn't only be working out at the Berto center, he should be calling those who didn't show up and get them there. 

It is unexcuseable for a team captain to skip "voluntary" work outs. He should be setting a good example. Jalen should be stripped of his "C", then traded to the Clippers. 

I hated Rose's game before the Bulls aquired him, nothing has changed except now I hate his whining and false "leadership" . 

I want more players like Chandler at 20 years old, he gets it. I wish Rose would.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> It probably takes a whole day to get there from Crawford's house in Seattle. :laugh:
> ...


confirmed 10 days ago that he was with a new agent 


Pax was "officially" informed 

link



> Bulls GM John Paxson has been informed that agent Arn Tellem is now representing Jamal Crawford. The Bulls guard had been using Seattle-based agent Aaron Goodwin.


I didnt say Crawford was there on the 1st I said Tyson was the only one mentioned at being there before the first besides our 2nd rd picks and usigned FA's :lol: 

It said jay and marshall made APPEARANCES ,Fizer is rehabbing he has to be there and Curry is injured and as we all know Curry was at hoops the gym working out and was not mentioned in the articlelink prior to this one referencing players arriving for workouts.

Players arriving late for summer workouts missing sessions omg the team is falling apart again like I said making a big deal out of nothing .


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

I just got done watching a thingie on the Deuce which featured the Bulls 72-10 season and their win over the Sonics in the NBA Finals. They had snippets of interviews with many of the players, and I was struck by one common theme among the comments of almost each player interviewed. To paraphrase Michael Jordan:

_The beautiful thing about this year is we had 15 guys, not one of which wasn't willing to make any sacrifices necessary to improve our chances of winning a 4th NBA Championship._

This current Bulls team, with some exceptions, does not have that mindset.


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## Crawscrew (Jul 15, 2002)

How about we hold off on judgements on all players who weren't there on June 1st, until we know the whole story? Wouldn't that make sense? And I'm talkin about everyone, Rose, Trent, E-rob, Craw, and whoever else wasn't there on June 1st. I still think were makin a big deal out of nothin. It's 2 weeks past for VOLUNTARY workouts. If Rose/E-Rob/[insert player name] feel they can work out better on there own terms, than by God let them do it. I'll be upset if anyone is late for mandatory workouts, but until that happens (if it does), I'm gonna relax on this situation.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Crawscrew</b>!
> How about we hold off on judgements on all players who weren't there on June 1st, until we know the whole story? Wouldn't that make sense? And I'm talkin about everyone, Rose, Trent, E-rob, Craw, and whoever else wasn't there on June 1st. I still think were makin a big deal out of nothin. It's 2 weeks past for VOLUNTARY workouts. If Rose/E-Rob/[insert player name] feel they can work out better on there own terms, than by God let them do it. I'll be upset if anyone is late for mandatory workouts, but until that happens (if it does), I'm gonna relax on this situation.


That is the most reasonable thing I have heard from a pro craw supporter so far......


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Crawscrew</b>!
> How about we hold off on judgements on all players who weren't there on June 1st, until we know the whole story? Wouldn't that make sense? And I'm talkin about everyone, Rose, Trent, E-rob, Craw, and whoever else wasn't there on June 1st. I still think were makin a big deal out of nothin. It's 2 weeks past for VOLUNTARY workouts. If Rose/E-Rob/[insert player name] feel they can work out better on there own terms, than by God let them do it. I'll be upset if anyone is late for mandatory workouts, but until that happens (if it does), I'm gonna relax on this situation.


Blah, blah, blah...

And to quote Michael Irvin - "There isn't any voluntary about voluntary workouts. They're manditory..."


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## Sicky Dimpkins (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>L.O.B</b>!
> I got into it last year with a couple of posters about Rose's physique and game play. I supported Rose.
> :sigh: I was wrong.
> 
> ...


I love you man. :laugh:
I really think the young 'Clips could use his veteran leadership.
Closer to L.A. Lizzy too.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sicky Dimpkins</b>!
> 
> I love you man. :laugh:
> I really think the young 'Clips could use his veteran leadership.
> Closer to L.A. Lizzy too.


Sign me up for this, too.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

Wow, the season needs to start already. This thread has three pages of people arguing about whether it was right for Jamal to show up 104 days before the season starts or 118. 

Uhhh... ok.

If I really cared, I'd go into what the hell "made appearances" means and so on... but I don't right now as far as the individual players go.

I'm glad Fred has been in the gym all summer. He's a good guy, and although I think he's eventually going to be a DNP kinda guy, I want to keep him. He's a very hard worker, and I hope it rubs off on other guys in his kind of position (likely always a bench player--- Lonny, RMJ, Dalibor etc.)

I'm a little upset Jalen didn't show up. They are voluntary, but as far as the leader of the team goes, I'd expect the leader to show up. The point of a leader is to be there for the other guys... even if he isn't working out for some reason but just shows up for a little bit each week and chats it up with the guys, maybe give a few spots, just to build chemistry and show that he's around. Oh well... Tyson really looks like he's moving into that role.

E-Rob... I just keep getting more dissapointed in him.

As far as Tyson being injured, Eddy being injured... I think it's more important that they are around than lifting right now. Face it, they have 120 days til the season starts. Right now, if they can spend some time together and build some chemistry, great. I'm not going to worry about serious training til early/mid July. 


Seriously though, the season needs to start already. I haven't been coming here as much (I don't really like to talk about any rumors during the offseason because there are so many ridiculous ones) but this board is probably getting more traffic than ever... and most of it has to do with attacking/defending one of our players or making ridiculous trade proposals.

Relax a little, don't get too caught up!!! Let's wait a little bit to see how the free agent market is looking and any trades that occur. I am excited for the draft soon though!


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sicky Dimpkins</b>!
> 
> I love you man. :laugh:
> I really think the young 'Clips could use his veteran leadership.
> Closer to L.A. Lizzy too.


I'm moving to Chicago in September though. 

On a related topic to what Sicky said this is what my mom said to me:

I was in Illinois for a funeral on draft day. (Actually flying during the draft). When I got home my parents told me that Elton Brand was traded for Tyson. I was floored. Then my mom said, in all seriousness "Maybe now you can be Elton Brand's concubine!" I was like "you want me to be Elton Brand's 17th Century British whore?" My mom has such lofty goals for me. I'm thinking of working that into a stand-up comedy bit.

Anyway - back on topic: Wish they all worked out together. I know of very few teams that actually do. Look how many guys are in Chicago that don't play for Chicago. The thing is - the Bulls players are all decent guys. They all seem charitable with their time, don't get in trouble and don't seem to be idiots. If this is going to be the drama - then I can live with it. 

And since I have to defend Rose (because I'm his lawyer) - he has been reading to kids and giving out scholarships to his HS and doing "nice guy" things. If filming Barbershop II/rap videos gets him connections w/ folks like Cedric and Eve so that they perform at charity events this summer - more power to him. Sounds like he's taking the Magic Johnson blueprint with the weekend charity deal and will probably raise a ton of money. Personally, I think that is extremely important. Doesn't mean he can't show up and work out with the team, I know


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> I'm a little upset Jalen didn't show up. They are voluntary, but as far as the leader of the team goes, I'd expect the leader to show up. The point of a leader is to be there for the other guys... even if he isn't working out for some reason but just shows up for a little bit each week and chats it up with the guys, maybe give a few spots, just to build chemistry and show that he's around. Oh well... Tyson really looks like he's moving into that role.
> 
> E-Rob... I just keep getting more dissapointed in him.


Again... and I'm really not trying to pick on anyone, I just don't see how people can in the same post voice their indifference over Crawford being two weeks late and then voice disappointment at other guys not showing up.

Isn't Jamal building himself up as a team leader with great chemistry between him and the other players too? If it's a reason to criticize Jalen, it's a reason to criticize Jamal.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

*Off-topic...kinda*



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> I was in Illinois for a funeral on draft day. (Actually flying during the draft). When I got home my parents told me that Elton Brand was traded for Tyson. I was floored. Then my mom said, in all seriousness "Maybe now you can be Elton Brand's concubine!" I was like "you want me to be Elton Brand's 17th Century British whore?" My mom has such lofty goals for me. I'm thinking of working that into a stand-up comedy bit.


I think it's safe to assume then, that had you been watching the draft live with your mom, that you would have gone from being Tyson Chandler's 17th century british whore to Elton Brand's in a matter of minutes. I think that just goes to show that NBA trades can affect a lot more than just the two teams involved.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

*Re: Off-topic...kinda*



> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> I think it's safe to assume then, that had you been watching the draft live with your mom, that you would have gone from being Tyson Chandler's 17th century british whore to Elton Brand's in a matter of minutes. I think that just goes to show that NBA trades can affect a lot more than just the two teams involved.


Exactly - so much at stake. Think of the concubines! Actually - the main reason for my mom wanting to whore me out wasn't the fact that Elton would be in close proximity. It was because he was a former Bull, a good guy, and a player she liked. My mom has standards like Jerry Krause when it somes to offering up her daughter for some ***.


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm moving to Chicago in September though.


Rumor has it that Benny the Bull, the Luvabulls, a Dixieland Band and Jalen will be greeting her at O'Hare.

Regarding the Michigan boys and their tardiness... Jamal had a long enough time to visit back in Seattle. It would've been nice if he could've gotten here 6/1, but he's earlier than last year, so I'll take it as a positive sign that he's slowly maturing. I don't think it's any shocker that Jalen isn't here yet. He thinks he's a 10-year vet and knows what's best. I don't think he's necessarily right, but if he can just show up a few weeks before he's "forced" to, then I guess I can be satisfied with at least a little more dedication than he showed last year. Long-term, we won't need Jalen for a leader, so Tyson stepping up is great. Hmmm... I remember almost a year ago when Jwill seemed a lock to become our leader. Do you think there's still a possibility of that? My prediction is that this year's Sprinting Drill Champion in training camp will still be Jwill.... or maybe Battier.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

Is Crawford's tardiness and Rose's, Hassell's and Robinson's absences an issue?

Apparently it is to Paxson who made it clear after he was hired what he expected from his players this summer and then followed up on the radio recently by naming the players who honored his request to start workouts at Berto by 6/1.

If it's not a big deal, then why has Paxson taken the time to publicly commend those who did as they were asked? If JC or any of the others were excused, then don't you think Pax would have said so and avoided having the public draw any improper conclusions when their names were ommited?

Pax is very new on the job. We all know that. He's got to determine by whatever standards he chooses to apply who's commited and who isn't. The June 1 show-up date was perhaps the first of several methods he'll use to decide who might stay and who might go.

Showing up at Berto by June 1 should be a non-event. Short of a death in the family, there's no reason why everyone of these players couldn't have blocked out their calenders for the first few weeks in June.

Crawford's amazing. He can begin negotiations _this summer_ for a lucrative contract extension that would go into effect next season (04/05). Why in the world wouldn't he make himself look good to his boss, his teamates, and the fans by starting his workouts at Berto when he was asked to? From a business and even a marketing and self promotion aspect, his tardiness makes no sense at all.

Rose is a huge disappointment as well. But then maybe his attitude had something to do with being shipped out of Indiana afterall. Its gonna be tough for him to direct the younin's during the season if they've all done more to prepare than he has.

But in the end, it seems this is exactly what Pax wanted to see...and now he knows a little bit more about each and every one of his players. And this kind of knowledge just may effect some of his trade decissions down the road. We'll have to wait and see.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

Jalen is a captain I havent heard of too many teams where they have voluntary workouts and the captain doesnt show up.

Why would Pax care enough to about what the public would think og his comments about voluntary workouts to try to clarify whats going on which each player thats not there ?Besides who knows what the question was :whoknows: 

Last year jamal did workout at the Berto in fact he was there up until the draft and left july 1st and returned for the minicamp mid july and thats where the he didnt show up for workouts with his teammates came from.

Its just waaay too early to judging someones offseason program because they missed the first 2 weeks.As someone posted earlier next will it be what does "made appearaaces" mean ?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> And if Craw was working on his post game with Payton, is this not something that Craw's agent would work to get a nice feel-good story about.


well he was working on his game last summer with payton and not much publicity about it


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

the difference betwwen football and basketball is that in basketball voluntary means exactly that 

how many such workouts have the bulls had over the last 15-20 years ? i bet you anything MJ and pippen are 1 and 2 in workouts missed 

heck there was a whole summer MJ had his own workouts while filming space jam...and the only player that was going to be there in training camp that was there his last full season was pippen , the lack of cohesiveness and time spent with teammates really showed during that ensuing 72 win season didn't it ?

i'm not excusing JC rose or e-rob for missing it or whoever else but this is way overblown and people on this thread have to realize it,in training camp we will see who has been working and who hasn't and really thats all that counts ,Hassell broke the bulls workout record last year and he regressed so until players get paid for their workout schedule and fans are paying to see them work out I'm taking this as if they are supposed to be studying for a test (regular season& hopefully playoffs)and if they fail that because they were unprepared there should be hell to pay but until they are legally obligated to be there (and they aren't) they really dont have to be although I would perfer that they would I refuse to blow a gasket over it until the games count or at until people are paying to see them (training camp)


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

I think it would be nice if everyone was working out together like Paxson asked but if everyone is there during the summer and working hard then it isnt such a big deal. We gotta understand that the nba season just officially ended 2 days ago. Do you think the nets and spurs are in their practice facilities right now?

Rose shouldnt be the captain if he cant make it to these workouts. Thats the only thing that really disturbs me about this. And erob is erob, ive given up hope on him.

Im glad to see Tyson putting in the effort and showing up for these mandatory workouts. This guy is commited to being a better player and making the team better.


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> Is Crawford's tardiness and Rose's, Hassell's and Robinson's absences an issue?
> 
> Apparently it is to Paxson who made it clear after he was hired what he expected from his players this summer and then followed up on the radio recently by naming the players who honored his request to start workouts at Berto by 6/1.
> ...



Well said Kismet!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Well said, indeed!


:yes:


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

*LoL. This is sad.*

 

This is all really petty, *APPARENTLY* people havent yet learn from their mistakes made *2 weeks ago* where people were bashing curry and his work ethic because he supposedly got kicked out of the gym. We all have no idea whether Jamal asked Pax beforehand for permission to come 2 weeks late to continue working on his post game with Payton. Call it excuses if you guys want.. because you were probably the same person accusing people of making excuses for eddy 2 weeks ago(ahem.. johnston)

This all reeks of the same Jay/Jamal doublestandard everyone was crying about 4.5 months ago. Oh well... just dont cry about it when Jay catches some flack next year, because apparently people on both sides are going all-out to overblow every little thing to prop up their boy.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: LoL. This is sad.*



> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> 
> This is all really petty, *APPARENTLY* people havent yet learn from their mistakes made *2 weeks ago* where people were bashing curry and his work ethic because he supposedly got kicked out of the gym. We all have no idea whether Jamal asked Pax beforehand for permission to come 2 weeks late to continue working on his post game with Payton. Call it excuses if you guys want.. because you were probably the same person accusing people of making excuses for eddy 2 weeks ago(ahem.. johnston)


Look Johnny, 

I had no complaint with anyone that stated that the Curry thing was an unconfirmed rumor. I had issue with people *like you* whom rattled off lame excuse after excuse for Curry in the event the rumor was true.

If someone said to wait and see how often Craw attends to rest of the summer, no problems. When people want to give Crawford a free pass on missing Chicago workouts that the GM wanted him to attend because Crawford changed agents or doesn't like an hour commute or loves his coffee in Seatle, that's a problem. 

I hope the distinction is not too subtle for you.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: LoL. This is sad.*



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Look Johnny,
> ...


i didnt meant to call you out, but i had to point out that we really dont know all the facts and this whole thread just reaks of the same kneejerk bashing that people were complaining about 4 months ago.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Again... and I'm really not trying to pick on anyone, I just don't see how people can in the same post voice their indifference over Crawford being two weeks late and then voice disappointment at other guys not showing up.
> ...


I don't see Jamal as the leader or being a leader on our team, I see him as the guy who shows up and plays hard. Tyson is the young guy I see as our future leader.

I don't hold Jamal to the same standards as Jalen. Why should I? Jalen is basically the best player on our team, the one with the most experience, and the one making the most. Jamal is a guy who just brokeout last year, but still has to show consistency... They aren't the same.


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## Cyanobacteria (Jun 25, 2002)

*differential treatment*

Wouldn't you rather be supervising the younger guys? Vets of several years SHOULD be more likely to know what their body requires in the off-season. The young guys should benefit more from guidance with strength, conditioning, fundamentals, etc.

I'm not a fan of people comparing the NBA to real life, because the NBA is definitely NOT real life IMO. HOWEVER, if it's too rough for someone making millions of dollars (not thousands) to make an appearance after several weeks of vacation (not 10 days), wait til after rush hour (not 8am) to go lift weights and condition for a couple hours (not 4), eat a nutricious lunch and let it settle (not scarfing McD's), shoot and drill for a couple of hours (not 4), then go home for a nap before rush hour (not 4 or 5 pm), then said person might be fairly opening themselves to criticism.

Same thing happens to most professional teams most years though. The only stock I put in it is getting a glance at one example of a guy's work ethic and team mentality. I am more likely to pull for a guy that highly values those two things, but don't put much stock in the whole shebang. The question is how much stock Pax puts in it. 

You can get into shape elsewhere, you can get instruction elsewhere, you can make cameos in rap videos elsewhere, but you can't demonstrate as much devotion to your teammates elsewhere as you do by working with them.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: differential treatment*



> Originally posted by <b>Cyanobacteria</b>!The question is how much stock Pax puts in it.


Given who his teammates were, when he was a player, its likely that a lot of stock was put in it.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: LoL. This is sad.*



> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> 
> This is all really petty, *APPARENTLY* people havent yet learn from their mistakes made *2 weeks ago* where people were bashing curry and his work ethic because he supposedly got kicked out of the gym.


You're drawing a comparision between two stories...Curry at Hoops and Crawford at Berto.

The Curry story was based entirely on disassociated facts that someone decided to blend into a ficticious rumor: someone got bounced out of Hoops for displaying a poor work ethic, and Curry recently had stopped working out at Hoops...therefore it must have been Curry who wasn't working hard enough.

The Crawford story is based on direct statements made by the Bulls GM and confirmation from a SunTimes writer (Roman Modrowski). Shortly after his hiring the new Bulls GM said very clearly that he would like to see all the Bulls players begin working out together at Berto by 6/1. He recently took the time on the radio to commend every player who honored his request. Jamal Crawford's name was not included on Paxson's list of players who had started their workouts at Berto by 6/1. Crawford's actual arrival date was later confirmed by Modrowski who stated that Crawford arrived at Berto on Monday (6/16). 

The Crawford story hasn't required any creative thinking in the way the Curry story evolved. We have the Bulls GM publicly commending each player who honored his request to begin workouts together by 6/1. Paxson didn't mention Crawford's name, among a few others. Nor did Paxson offer any reason for Crawford's or the other players' absences. The simple fact that he named those who showed up clearly indicated his dissatisfaction with those who didn't.

So, in my very humble opinion, comparing the Curry story with the Crawford story is truly comparing apples to oranges. The conclusions drawn in the Curry story was entirely speculative in nature. The Crawford story is entirely factual...Crawford was a no show on 6/1 and Paxson publicly stated so on the radio by ommiting his name from the list of players who deserved commendations. 

And if the Bulls new GM thinks its a subject that's important enough to make very specific statements about in a public forum, then I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that its probably not a petty issue from his perspective.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

Well thanks for the info, i had no idea Pax was on the radio and had said these things. but did Pax mention whether JC told him beforehand that he was going to come in late? because from my experiences at the workplace, as long as i call in before coming late or being absent, the boss dosent put it against me. because I highly doubt Jamal would just miss the first 2 weeks without giving John a call.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> Well thanks for the info, i had no idea Pax was on the radio and had said these things. but did Pax mention whether JC told him beforehand that he was going to come in late? because from my experiences at the workplace, as long as i call in before coming late or being absent, the boss dosent put it against me. because I highly doubt Jamal would just miss the first 2 weeks without giving John a call.


Just a guess on my part, but I'm sure Pax would expect alot of Bulls fans to express concern over JC's absence...and Rose's and Robinson's. But he offered no explanation for why they hadn't complied with his wishes. If you can draw a parallel to an old adage, you might want to think about that old saying that goes, "Your silence condemns you." In this case, its..."the ommision of your name that condemns you."

I think in a broader sense, John is making a point that the players will not call the shots in this organization. I think this is the first opportunity for a few of them to get the message that John Paxson means what he says. As much as he comes across as a gentleman and a positive thinker, the players will learn quickly enough that he's dead serious about winning. And the team will always take precidence over individual needs or preferences.


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## laso (Jul 24, 2002)

At least JC showed up. Unlike last summer.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> Just a guess on my part, but I'm sure Pax would expect alot of Bulls fans to express concern over JC's absence...and Rose's and Robinson's. But he offered no explanation for why they hadn't complied with his wishes. If you can draw a parallel to an old adage, you might want to think about that old saying that goes, "Your silence condemns you." In this case, its..."the ommision of your name that condemns you."
> ...


but this is why it is a legit argument to compare the verbal beating eddy got last week to what jamal is getting now. We had no idea what happened behind the scene at Hoops with eddy, and we have no idea whether jamal had called john before coming in late. Was this interview with Paxon _Specifically_ for the purpose of calling out the guys who didnt come in on time? i highly doubt it. 

Yes Pax didnt offer any explanation for why jamal came in late... he dosent have to, because quite frankly.. he WAS probably dissapointed that jamal didnt come in on time, but does that neccesarily indicate any sort of character flaw in jamal? no, because we dont know whether jamal had notified Pax that he was going to come in late. now you can take that as a negative on jamal, or you can take it for what it was... nothing. _If JC had just came in 2 weeks late without letting John know what was up, THEN there would be an issue_. but these type of facts were lacking in these recent articles.

Lets say Jamal had called in at May 29th and told John that he was going to be 2 weeks late because he was working out in Seattle at the Sonic's facilities, _Pax would still be disapointed and he still would have had the interview.. he still would have given props to jay, fizer etc.. while not mentioning Jamal etc.. _ but at least he'd know where Jamal was and what exactly he was doing. Pax dosent have to be happy about it, but at least he knows the facts.  As long as Jamal notified Pax. 

At everywhere i've worked, every job i've had.. the policy was.. call in before being absent or coming in late. _The boss would still express dissapointment that you werent able to come in on time, but at least he knew why you came in late_(or why you were absent.) We all must remember that These ARE valuntary workouts, so its not like working out at the Seattle Sonic's facilities or whatnot is a bad excuse, IF an 'excuse' at all in the first place.


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## DYNASTY (Jun 18, 2003)

I'm so optimistic bout E-ROB and to some extint Rose but E-Rob is really dissapointing me.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> 
> but this is why it is a legit argument to compare the verbal beating eddy got last week to what jamal is getting now. We had no idea what happened behind the scene at Hoops with eddy, and we have no idea whether jamal had called john before coming in late. Was this interview with Paxon _Specifically_ for the purpose of calling out the guys who didnt come in on time? i highly doubt it.
> ...


I understand what you're saying. But as I said before, short of a death in the family, every member of the Bulls team should have boxed out the first few weeks of June on their calenders for workouts at Berto. Whether JC called Paxson or not, at the very least he's guilty of exercising poor judgement. If JC had a legitimate reason for being late I'm sure Pax would have mentioned it on the air to difuse any potential controversies. But I suspect that although these workouts are indeed labeled "voluntary," the message Pax was sending his troops was that he wanted to see _everyone_ present at Berto after 6 weeks off. As Chandler put it, "...I think everybody should have come back before the first, worked out hard together, and then we could go our separate ways to work out.'' I agree with Chandler.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

It's amazing to me that so many of us here applauded the hiring of John Paxson in part because he was a former player who had won 3 championship rings with the Bulls. Surely this guy will know how to instill a winning attitude in our young team, right?

Now he has started to exert his influence, making a fairly simple request that players show up at the Berto Center on a certain date to begin voluntary workouts, and some here are defending players-- none of whom have won squat last time I checked-- for defying him.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> It's amazing to me that so many of us here applauded the hiring of John Paxson in part because he was a former player who had won 3 championship rings with the Bulls. Surely this guy will know how to instill a winning attitude in our young team, right?
> 
> Now he has started to exert his influence, making a fairly simple request that players show up at the Berto Center on a certain date to begin voluntary workouts, and some here are defending players-- none of whom have won squat last time I checked-- for defying him.


Great post Kneepad.

Many of us (unfortunately I'll have to include myself) bashed Jerry Krause for prohibiting Hoops and encouraging players to work out voluntarily at the Berto with other teammates.

Many of us now bash incumbent GM John Paxson for wanting his players at the Berto on a specified date, more than 6 weeks after the NBA season ended.

Hmmmm


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I think you guys are blowing this thing WAY out of proportion. Workouts are indeed voluntary right up until training camp. So, some of the guys didn't show up on the exact day Paxson suggested, big deal. I just hope E-Rob & Rose show up soon so the whole team can build chemistry.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> I think you guys are blowing this thing WAY out of proportion. Workouts are indeed voluntary right up until training camp. So, some of the guys didn't show up on the exact day Paxson suggested, big deal. I just hope E-Rob & Rose show up soon so the whole team can build chemistry.


And how long do you suggest that everyone should wait around for the others to show up? I think the opportunity has already been blown. Shame on Crawford, Rose, Robinson and Hassell for not caring enough about chemestry to make the same effort that nine other players did.
:naughty:


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> I think you guys are blowing this thing WAY out of proportion. Workouts are indeed voluntary right up until training camp. So, some of the guys didn't show up on the exact day Paxson suggested, big deal. I just hope E-Rob & Rose show up soon so the whole team can build chemistry.


True, ace. But wouldn't you agree that the circumstances are a bit different since Pax is a new GM? First impressions can be lasting impressions. And its not like Paxson has no prior knowledge of these players work habits, work ethic, commitment, etc. 

E-Rob? -- absolutely cannot stay healthy and what exactly has he done as a Chicago Bull? next to nothing... didn't lift a weight in his life until last offseason

Jalen? -- the defacto leader of this team.. i'm not really bothered by the fact he didn't show up for the voluntary workout.. but quite honestly the dude could stand to lift some weights and get stronger

Don't get me wrong here... I'm not saying all Bulls players should spend 24/7 together, lift weights to look like the Hulk, go to Chuckie Cheese's together courtesy of BC's AMEX, and get matching outfits to walk down Michigan Avenue... puhlease. However, I do believe Paxson will have a shorter leash on these players than Jerry Krause ever did. More is expected out of these players, and more is expected <i>this season</i>. Playoffs are the goal. Period.





VD


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

We'll see how big a deal it is to Pax when it comes time to decide who is on the roster for the long haul.

Count me as one Bulls fan who's hoping Pax takes the attitude of Mike Ditka when he first came to the Bears. As I recall, he made the following statement to the team soon after being hired (I'm paraphrasing):

_I have good news and bad news for you guys. The good news is we're going to win the Super Bowl. The bad news is a lot (most?) of you guys aren't going to be with the team when we do._

I don't believe the Bulls need the same kind of overhaul the early-80's Bears did. And unfortunately it's not as easy in the NBA to move personnel around as it is in the NFL. But I think Pax will make the necessary moves to get the players in here that he thinks have what it takes to win.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> _I have good news and bad news for you guys. The good news is we're going to win the Super Bowl. The bad news is a lot (most?) of you guys aren't going to be with the team when we do._


Nice Ditka quote.

This is one fan that is ready to trade some talented underachivers for less talented overachevers. eRob for Shannon Anderson, anyone?


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> I understand what you're saying. But as I said before, short of a death in the family, every member of the Bulls team should have boxed out the first few weeks of June on their calenders for workouts at Berto. Whether JC called Paxson or not, at the very least he's guilty of exercising poor judgement. If JC had a legitimate reason for being late I'm sure Pax would have mentioned it on the air to difuse any potential controversies. But I suspect that although these workouts are indeed labeled "voluntary," the message Pax was sending his troops was that he wanted to see _everyone_ present at Berto after 6 weeks off. As Chandler put it, "...I think everybody should have come back before the first, worked out hard together, and then we could go our separate ways to work out.'' I agree with Chandler.


I fully understand where you are coming from, im just saying that Jamal hasnt done anything to warrant such verbal bashing that he's been recieving in this thread. Coming in late dosent neccesarily indicate any real character flaw as long as he called in and notified Pax about what was up. Im glad Pax is getting tough, i wasnt sure about his hiring at first because i thought he was soft rookie but he's showing me i was wrong.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*tsk tsk tsk*

isn't this always the way, instead of praising TC for his leadership (which was not just the title of the article but the theme of it as well) this becomes a bashing circus on other players 

what a surprise !!!

and for those who either dont want to bash players for not attending volunatry workouts or who just want to hold judgement on it until more facts come in(as there almost always are) they are labeled excuse makers .


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: tsk tsk tsk*



> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> isn't this always the way, instead of praising TC for his leadership (which was not just the title of the article but the theme of it as well) this becomes a bashing circus on other players
> 
> what a surprise !!!
> ...


Tyson, himself, expressed disappointment in the other players so its very On-Topic for us all to discuss the implications of those skipping the workouts.

And let's not forget history. 

Crawford neglected to attend the bulk of voluntary workouts last summer and started off the year (under 40% shooting pre-All-Star game) in poor shape compared to how he closed out the previous year (47% shooting). 

Who knows what Rose did last off-season and his shooting declined from 47% to 41%. At 30, this guy really needs to take care of himself or he will not be effective in the league if his game slips much more.

Now while this could be unrelated, but if the GM says he would like to supervise a portion of their workouts this summer, I am behind JPax 100%.

To followup an earlier point that you made in this thread, you brought up MJ and Pippen and their summer workouts. I gotta say that neither of Rose or Craw looked like they had a solid workout plan unlike guys like Kobe last summer. And nothing like MJ and Pippen when they were young Bulls. All 3 of those guys had extra muscle coming into the year which helped their game.

Sure, the workouts didn't improve Hassel and eRob much last summer and Hoiberg's game probably won't show a massive increase after this summer. Is that whom you want to compare Crawford and Rose to? I would prefer to hold them to higher standards. :yes:

Edit: Noted that Craw's under 40% shooting was pre-All-Star game.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I read the article and I've read thru 6 pages of posts. What I come away with is that I'm impressed with Chandler. This kid actually seems to get it. He genuinely seems to want to be a Bull. Even moreso, he wants to lead this team.

Tyson made comments last season about a lack of leadership on the Bulls and that he couldn't wait until he had enough seniority to start calling players out. I think he's getting there pretty quickly.

I'm not all that concerned about Jamal not showing up until the 16th. At least he's there now. E-Rob seems to be a lost cause. They guy is only hurting himself now. The player that I'm concerned about is Rose. He's the self-professed leader of this club and he is still the best player (for now). It seems to me that Alpha-dog Chandler has laid down his challenge and that he wants to lead thru deeds and hard work. Rose wanted to be top-dawg in Indiana but Reggie Miller was the unquestioned leader of that team. He comes to a Chicago club devoid of any veteran leadership and promptly crowns himself king. There was no election and there was no resistance. Now the masses are getting restless seeing that their leader may not be the man for the job. Rose's lack of appearneces at the Berto the last two offseasons (last season and now) have opened up a potential pandora's box as far as his leadership is concerned.

I'm not questioning Jalen's talent as a basketball player. He's damn good. I just don't think he was ever cut out to be a leader. I think we may see his leadership skills challanged by at least a couple players this comming season.

Props to Chandler. At 20 years old he seems to understand better what it takes to be great than our own 30 year old, never been an all-star leader.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> I fully understand where you are coming from, im just saying that Jamal hasnt done anything to warrant such verbal bashing that he's been recieving in this thread.


The whole point of this thread, though, to me is that there isn't much verbal bashing of Crawford at all. On the contrary, there's relatively little actual bashing of him but a lot of people jumping to his defense as if he was getting stoned to death. The debate to me seems to be between people that have a healthy skeptism when they see an article about a guy not showing up when asked and between people who seem to think that any skepticism regarding Jamal should should be excused away or automatically assumed to have a valid but unknown explanation.

It's not that there's much bashing of Crawford, but there is the perception that he's being bashed, and an effort to make up every excuse in the world for him to not be pinned with even in tiny bit of criticism.

Why is there such a reflexive need to defend this guy? He is NOT being bashed... I've seem people express some mild disappointment... bit it's not like they're saying he should be shipped off to the Clippers about this (as has been said about Jalen).


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> The player that I'm concerned about is Rose. He's the self-professed leader of this club and he is still the best player (for now). It seems to me that Alpha-dog Chandler has laid down his challenge and that he wants to lead thru deeds and hard work. Rose wanted to be top-dawg in Indiana but Reggie Miller was the unquestioned leader of that team. He comes to a Chicago club devoid of any veteran leadership and promptly crowns himself king. There was no election and there was no resistance. Now the masses are getting restless seeing that their leader may not be the man for the job. Rose's lack of appearneces at the Berto the last two offseasons (last season and now) have opened up a potential pandora's box as far as his leadership is concerned.
> 
> I'm not questioning Jalen's talent as a basketball player. He's damn good. I just don't think he was ever cut out to be a leader. I think we may see his leadership skills challanged by at least a couple players this comming season.
> ...


Very well put, fl_flash. :clap: 

I would just add that I think it's more than the lack of Rose's off-season commitment that the young guys are starting to see through... it's the lack of on-court hustle too. Players know who's hustling and giving maximum effort, even if fans don't always.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

I watch as many bulls games as i can (EST limits that somewhat in the 2nd half) and the one thing you see right away with rose's game is he never hits the floor or goes after a loose ball. I have seem him just stand there and look to one of the kids instread of going after a loose ball.

That is why the pacers were happy to get rid of him. While he cares about winning he plays the game on Jrose's rules and no one elses. This was true at Mich and it is still true today. Ever wonder why he is not in chicago working out. Why he came into camp out of shape and fat last year. That is why. He thinks he deserves that 14 million and does not have to work at it. How else do you explain 3.5 TO per game. 

david


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## Sicky Dimpkins (May 28, 2002)

By not leaving his feet(horizontally for loose balls or vertically for rebounds or finishing strong) he preserves his career at the expense of the team.

Jalen Rose for 6th man of the year?


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sicky Dimpkins</b>!
> By not leaving his feet(horizontally for loose balls or vertically for rebounds or finishing strong) he preserves his career at the expense of the team.
> 
> Jalen Rose for 6th man of the year?


I think you are on to something, maybe Jalen would thrive in a brent barry role.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Losing two weeks between now and October won't be a big deal physically to Jamal.

But you never know---those two weeks could have meant all the world to him _mentally_.

If he was somewhere he liked, with someone he liked, doing what he liked and now he's at work with clear content mind because he wants to be there, that's all that matters to me. He'll be a better baller for it come October.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> Very well put, fl_flash. :clap:
> 
> I would just add that I think it's more than the lack of Rose's off-season commitment that the young guys are starting to see through... it's the lack of on-court hustle too. Players know who's hustling and giving maximum effort, even if fans don't always.


I agree that most of the guys are starting to see right through Rose. I do have a concern though that Rose is, in fact, still influencing JC, a fellow Wolverine, and it's not the kind of influences that are going to make JC a better ballplayer or teammate. I also think that his lack of dedication in the offseason influences our other young vet, ERob, who may be thinking, "If JR doesn't need to show, then why should I?"

Perhaps if you subtract Rose's influence, sheep like JC and ER will get back in line with most of their teammates. It's a question Paxson may be pondering right now.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree that most of the guys are starting to see right through Rose. I do have a concern though that Rose is, in fact, still influencing JC, a fellow Wolverine, and it's not the kind of influences that are going to make JC a better ballplayer or teammate. I also think that his lack of dedication in the offseason influences our other young vet, ERob, who may be thinking, "If JR doesn't need to show, then why should I?"
> ...


OMG - these guys are grown men. If Rose not being there is stopping Jamal or Robinson from showing up then it's a sad, sad day for adult males everywhere. 

Every guy on the team has a mind if their own.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> 
> 
> OMG - these guys are grown men. If Rose not being there is stopping Jamal or Robinson from showing up then it's a sad, sad day for adult males everywhere.
> ...


I agree, but shouldn't that also go for any time someone says we can't trade player X,Y, or J because he's friends with other players on the team?


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree, but shouldn't that also go for any time someone says we can't trade player X,Y, or J because he's friends with other players on the team?


Yep


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> 
> 
> OMG - these guys are grown men. If Rose not being there is stopping Jamal or Robinson from showing up then it's a sad, sad day for adult males everywhere.
> ...


Lizzy, while I agree with your comments, do you not feel that there is probably a big brother/little brother relationship between Jalen and Crawford? 

Crawford is very young and probably easily influenced... I know tons of my friends who are like this, who'll get themselves in trouble just to say on the up and up with someone else, etc.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> The whole point of this thread, though, to me is that there isn't much verbal bashing of Crawford at all. On the contrary, there's relatively little actual bashing of him but a lot of people jumping to his defense as if he was getting stoned to death. The debate to me seems to be between people that have a healthy skeptism when they see an article about a guy not showing up when asked and between people who seem to think that any skepticism regarding Jamal should should be excused away or automatically assumed to have a valid but unknown explanation.
> ...


point well taken, we diagree about whether it matters if jamal had called in before coming in late but other then that i see your point


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

for all any of us know, Paxson asked everyone to be in by 06/01 and maybe ALL of the players who haven't shown up have already told Pax "I've got this going on and I won't be able to make it till the 16th, 20th, whatever" Surely if that was the case then this wouldn't be widely reported. So, I wouldn't be overly concerned about it at this point.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

funny thing is, in the same article there's a small story about jwill's canceled trip to kuwait to entertain the troops (canceled due to a death in the family). which of course means he would have missed some of these volunteer workouts had he been able to go.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RoRo</b>!
> funny thing is, in the same article there's a small story about jwill's canceled trip to kuwait to entertain the troops (canceled due to a death in the family). which of course means he would have missed some of these volunteer workouts had he been able to go.


The Difference is...we know why Jwill would have been gone. It's no secret, and I am pretty sure that he would have worked that out with Pax before hand or NOT GONE.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

oh boy so now jamals a weak minded follower to Jalen who cant think to himself  :rofl: 


So much specualtion off so lil information no one knows the entire story behind anyone workouts at the berto.All the players get a key card that gives them access to the berto anytime they want and while it says some workout together we dont know all the details.

From www.jalenrose.com



tuesday June 3rd jalen in chicago reading to kids 












june 9th -jalen visits alma mater 











Like I said who the hell knows whats going on ?


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> 
> 
> The Difference is...we know why Jwill would have been gone. It's no secret, and I am pretty sure that he would have worked that out with Pax before hand or NOT GONE.


when you say "we" do you mean pax or us{the fans} because im sure pax we dont know everything that pax knows .


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> 
> 
> The Difference is...we know why Jwill would have been gone. It's no secret, and I am pretty sure that he would have worked that out with Pax before hand or NOT GONE.


the difference is that jay is doing it for publicity and his own corporation(jaywil inc.) while jamal is working out at the Seattle Sonics facilities.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

> the difference is that jay is doing it for publicity and his own corporation(jaywil inc.) while jamal is working out at the Seattle Sonics facilities.



Sorry but that is absurd. To assume that the only reason Jay was going to Kuwait was to give his company and himself pub is crazy. It would not be just plain good human kindness. Geez. As far as Jamal for him to rather work out at Sonics facilities than than at facilities of the team he is employed with shows where his loyalty is.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but that is absurd. To assume that the only reason Jay was going to Kuwait was to give his company and himself pub is crazy. It would not be just plain good human kindness. Geez. As far as Jamal for him to rather work out at Sonics facilities than than at facilities of the team he is employed with shows where his loyalty is.


human kindness? lol. AND publicity. Jamal is playing basketball in Seattle Sonics facilities when he's not at berto, Jay would have been going to Kuwait with a bunch of actors, wheres the dedication to _basketball_?


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Oh so now Jay is not a dedicated basketball player because he had plans to go to Kuwait to visit the troops. Jesus next thing I will hear is him taking time away for his aunts funeral( reason he canceled Kuwait trip) also means he is not dedicated to ball. :no:


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Oh so now Jay is not a dedicated basketball player because he had plans to go to Kuwait to visit the troops. Jesus next thing I will hear is him taking time away for his aunts funeral( reason he canceled Kuwait trip) also means he is not dedicated to ball. :no:


im just playng devil's advocate, i dont really care if a guy wants some publicity to build up his corporation. Im just pointing out that jay is not god like everyone here wants to believe while jamal is the devil with a bad work ethic.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

> i dont really care if a guy wants some publicity to build up his corporation.



Why even say this? You have no proof that is the case. He should not be accused of doing that unless that is the case. Find other ways to tear down Jay, doing with accusations that have no proof doesnt get the job done.


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## Sicky Dimpkins (May 28, 2002)

I wonder if maybe JC would prefer to be away from J until after the draft. Why risk the tension if one may be moved.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sicky Dimpkins</b>!
> I wonder if maybe JC would prefer to be away from J until after the draft. Why risk the tension if one may be moved.


Oh please! That actually makes sense. 

I mentioned this before but I believe his toddler son lives in Seattle. If he wants to work out in Seattle for a few extra weeks and spend time with his kid I think that's cool.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Yeah and as long as JC prearranged that with Paxson it is cool with me too.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Why even say this? You have no proof that is the case. He should not be accused of doing that unless that is the case. Find other ways to tear down Jay, doing with accusations that have no proof doesnt get the job done.


i understand what you are saying, maybe it was uncalled for but i reserve the right to use that against jay whenever people want to cry about jamal's supposed lack of commitment to basketball.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> 
> i understand what you are saying, maybe it was uncalled for but i reserve the right to use that against jay whenever people want to cry about jamal's supposed lack of commitment to basketball.


Which only reveals bias....


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> 
> 
> Which only reveals bias....


everyone here knows im a jamal fan, im not hiding anything. Tell me something... why is it that when you hear about jamal coming in late to voluntary workouts because he was working out at the Sonic's facilities, you along with the rest of the Jay posse go _strait for the jugular_ and attack Jamal's work ethic and commitment to basketball... yet when you hear about Jay going over to Kuwait with a bunch of actors you dont say a peep? wheres the commitment to basketball? at least jamal was in the Sonic's facility playing _basketball_ while jay would have been going to Kuwait to prop up *Jaywil Inc.*


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> 
> human kindness? lol. AND publicity. Jamal is playing basketball in Seattle Sonics facilities when he's not at berto, Jay would have been going to Kuwait with a bunch of actors, wheres the dedication to _basketball_?


]

What, you mean the same Jay wou built up his corperation last year by SKIPPING LENO to work out in chicago, while Jamal was missing in action? Yeah....doing it for publicity is very consistent with his past behavior....:laugh:


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> 
> everyone here knows im a jamal fan, im not hiding anything. Tell me something... why is it that when you hear about jamal coming in late to voluntary workouts because he was working out at the Sonic's facilities, you along with the rest of the Jay posse go _strait for the jugular_ and attack Jamal's work ethic and commitment to basketball... yet when you hear about Jay going over to Kuwait with a bunch of actors you dont say a peep? wheres the commitment to basketball? at least jamal was in the Sonic's facility playing _basketball_ while jay would have been going to Kuwait to prop up *Jaywil Inc.*


I haven't. Show me wehre I have attacked his work ethic, commitment to basketball, etc.......

I am waiting.

As far as Jay, why would I attack him for that? Hell, I wouldn't attack anyone for boosting the morale of our troops. You sound like you need to check your priorities....


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> ]
> 
> What, you mean the same Jay wou built up his corperation last year by SKIPPING LENO to work out in chicago, while Jamal was missing in action? Yeah....doing it for publicity is very consistent with his past behavior....:laugh:


We also won championships 5 years ago.

He missed Leno, thats one positive thing i could say about him, but im talking about now, and today. The Jay fans are crying about jamal's supposed lack of commitment to bball when you all really cant talk because "Jay" is planning on singing diddy's with Mulder and Skully over in Kuwait.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> 
> 
> I haven't. Show me wehre I have attacked his work ethic, commitment to basketball, etc.......
> ...


If it wasnt you then i sincerely apologize, maybe someone with a similar name as you, i dunno.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> 
> If it wasnt you then i sincerely apologize, maybe someone with a similar name as you, i dunno.


No apologies necessary. I would never do that. At least not anymore.


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## Xantos (Jan 8, 2003)

Sad news indeed..Hope he recovers. If he has to sit out at least we have a solid backup in Rick Brunson, and JC. Brunson is no JWill, but is solid on the defensive end. and is good about getting the ball up court and starting the offense.........WIll all know JC' potential.

Get well man..


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