# OT: The Chris Bosh Dilemma...



## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

I'm sure you are all fimilar with the Chris Bosh rumors started yesterday. My question is whether it would be worth it looking to trade for him if he is in fact available. The guys talent can not be questioned but I can't help but shake the impression that he's a modern day Shareef Abdur-Rahim; he's clearly a talented player but not good enough to carry a team but good enough to demand the sort of value of someone that does. I'd be more inclined to trade for him but given the way the Knicks have been playing, it would certainly disrupt chemistry. In either case, we'd be building for the future and he'd be one of those necessary 2nd-tier players we'd need next to the superstar we intend on signing. What do you guys think of these two scenarios....

*Scenario 1*
*Knicks Trade:*
David Lee...F/C
Al Harrington...F
Malik Rose...F/C
Jerome James...C

*Knicks Recieve:*
Chris Bosh...PF
Joey Graham...SF
Anthony Parker...G/F

_Scenario 2_
*Knicks Trade:*
Wilson Chandler...G/F
Danilo Gallinari...F
Malik Rose...F/C

*Knicks Recieve:*
Chris Bosh...F/C


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

I'd like the second one but I'd doubt they'd take it. The Knicks can't trade their draft pick for this year either. If they were to take it, that would be awesome. Both offers actually look good.

The one thing is they'd likely want Marbury for O'Neal too. That's perfectly okay with me, but they'll want to start the rebuilding as fast as they possibly can. They also might want to swap Rose with Thomas which I'm also okay with. Heck, they can have Duhon too. The beauty of the trade would be that the Knicks would have his bird rights. That would enable them to sign two players to a max contract and then go over with Bosh without using the M.L.E. or L.L.E., so whatever they'd like, they can have.


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## Truknicksfan (Mar 25, 2005)

I would hate to give up wilson and gallo. Ill pass.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Truknicksfan said:


> I would hate to give up wilson and gallo. Ill pass.


It's strange what perception does to a trade. I was sitting here thinking, why would Toronto trade Chris Bosh for Chandler and Gallo? They're two young role-players who'll likely be nothing more. Why would you trade a top-15 player in the league for them? Actually, I'm curious, as a Knicks fan what makes Gallo and Wilson more valuable to you then Chris Bosh?

To be honest, as a Toronto fan, the only guy that appeals to me is David Lee. I wouldn't really have any interest in anyone else, so that 2nd trade particularly doesn't really look all that plausible.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Ras said:


> It's strange what perception does to a trade. I was sitting here thinking, why would Toronto trade Chris Bosh for Chandler and Gallo? They're two young role-players who'll likely be nothing more. Why would you trade a top-15 player in the league for them? Actually, I'm curious, as a Knicks fan what makes Gallo and Wilson more valuable to you then Chris Bosh?
> 
> To be honest, as a Toronto fan, the only guy that appeals to me is David Lee. I wouldn't really have any interest in anyone else, so that 2nd trade particularly doesn't really look all that plausible.



I know this wasn't directed at me but I think I can help explain the rationale behind why we think both those players are worth Bosh. Although young and unproven, Chandler has demonstrated the ability to not only defend the top-tier swingmen in the game but also have big games statistically. Those games do come few and far in between but when they do come, their impressive. I don't think the guy has what it takes to be an all-star but I certainly believe he has the ability to be a starter on a very very good team. 

Gallo also has similar potential, although I believe he will be the better player of the two. He has played limited minutes thus far but the minutes he has played has often been key minutes of games. I don't believe it is an overstatement to consider him one of the best shooters in the game and yet he still has an ability to create his own shot and/or take the ball to the basket when need be; his bball IQ is on par with most vets. Unlike most Europeans, Gallo actually has some toughness and may even be an adequate enough defender to make opponents work for their points. Although I don't see him as a double digit rebounding threat, I certainly think he'll approach that every night depending on the number of minutes he recieves.

Together, those guys may be a much more potent threat than Bosh down the road. Although neither will be able to carry a team, I don't think Bosh ever really will; he's the 2nd coming of Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Not to mention, I don't believe Bosh will even be more effective than Al Harrington in this system since D'Antoni 4's generally play an inside-outside (to the 3 point line) game, which I don't think Bosh is better than Harrington at even though Bosh is the better overall player.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*First..the question*

I don't want Bosh. I think he's soft and overrated. I see his talent, but something about him screams Shareef Abdur Rahim.....good numbers but something is missing. As far as Gallo goes, I think he is under appreciated. Among the rookies, he is behind only Morrow in 3 pt shooting and is the top fg% shooter except for a few inside scorers. He is basically the best shooter in this years class. People knock his defense but the kid is a smart and long defender who plays defense better than he is given credit for. Half the time he ends up guarding 2s and usually does OK....and he is 6'10+. He has beaten some of the best defenders off the bounce already including Tmac, Matt Barnes, and others. If he was playing 35 minutes, he's be an 18/6/4 guy as a rookie. Good health, and this kid will be a star. Chandler? High risk, high reward type of guy. So athletic and still so raw. They might be a great tandem in a couple of years.

Also....why do you say we would lose Bird rights on Nate and Lee if they signed an extension? From Wilkipeia: "To qualify as a Bird free agent, a player must have played three seasons without being waived or changing teams as a free agent. This means a player can obtain "Bird rights" by playing under three one-year contracts, a single contract of at least three years, or any combination thereof. It also means that when a player is traded, his Bird rights are traded with him, and his new team can use the Bird exception to re-sign him. Bird-exception contracts can be up to six years in length." Nowhere does in say it has to happen in his first re-up.


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## Truknicksfan (Mar 25, 2005)

> Chandler? High risk, high reward type of guy. So athletic and still so raw. They might be a great tandem in a couple of years.


Im really high on chandler. Think he could be a really great third option one day plus and really good defender. I also like his personality. He is not like Nate, Q and harrington that feel the need to celerbrate after EVERY basket. He reminds me of one of my favorite Yankees. Bernie Williams. Just went out everyday and did his job, and a darn good one at that.

As for bosh, I want him as long as there is a better player on the team like lebron or wade etc....


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

first one sounds plausible


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Truknicksfan said:


> Im really high on chandler. Think he could be a really great third option one day plus and really good defender. I also like his personality. He is not like Nate, Q and harrington that feel the need to celerbrate after EVERY basket. *He reminds me of one of my favorite Yankees. Bernie Williams. Just went out everyday and did his job, and a darn good one at that.*
> As for bosh, I want him as long as there is a better player on the team like lebron or wade etc....


Funny you should say that because I thought that Chandler reminder me of another Yankee very close to Bernie....Paul O'neil. The guy was always one of the first to blame himself for the teams shortcomings but at the same time one of the key contributors to any and all success the Yankees had; a true professional.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*You mean Paul O'Neil?*

Paul Williams is an old, short, creepy song writer...lol


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: You mean Paul O'Neil?*



alphaorange said:


> Paul Williams is an old, short, creepy song writer...lol


LOL and him too.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Ras said:


> It's strange what perception does to a trade. I was sitting here thinking, why would Toronto trade Chris Bosh for Chandler and Gallo? They're two young role-players who'll likely be nothing more. Why would you trade a top-15 player in the league for them? Actually, I'm curious, as a Knicks fan what makes Gallo and Wilson more valuable to you then Chris Bosh?
> 
> To be honest, as a Toronto fan, the only guy that appeals to me is David Lee. I wouldn't really have any interest in anyone else, so that 2nd trade particularly doesn't really look all that plausible.


Wilson Chandler's likely scenario is a Luol Deng type player. His shooting is extremely streaky and he has the propensity to shoot even when he's off. It can be destructive to games at times. He does a decent job getting his teammates involved and will likely be an average passer at the three. He holds above average rebounding ability, but it isn't anything too stellar. His biggest flaw is his ability to get the shot. He isn't the greatest ball handler and yet still hasn't learned how to create a shot without the ball which is a big hindrance to his game and makes him a bit of a one trick pony. Defensively, he has the athleticism to keep up with some of the second tier guys in the league, but will get burned against top tier talent as seen with LeBron James and Kobe Bryant recently. His style of play will likely be conducive to putting up stats but won't necessarily be conducive to winning. He prefers to defend with quickness rather than physicality. He should be limited to playing the three for best productivity, but can play the two or the four in circumstances where it's needed. He'll likely command a heavy contract, but if he were to leave he likely won't be that hard to replace. The best case scenario is he'll put up a 22 or so P.E.R. with 17-18 being more likely and 14.5-15.5 being the worst case scenario.

Danillo Gallinari's will be similar to Rip Hamilton with size. His shooting is his biggest advantage and he moves extremely well without the ball. His defense is above average especially for someone who doesn't necessarily have the greatest athleticism. He's very good at forcing the offensive player to move in the direction he wants him to making him a quality asset for trap defenses. He moves the ball well especially for someone his size. He works mostly along the perimeter and prefers jump shots, though will drive against undersized players, but he looks awkward driving the ball as his handling isn't the greatest. He needs to add bulk to his legs so that he can move side to side better and adding upper body mass would help as well. He's very good at forcing turnovers and has good hands defensively. He can defend with physicality for players that he's on par with strength wise. His best position right now is probably the two, but can play the one to the three. Should he add 25 lbs. of nothing but muscle, he'll be able to play all five positions with the two or three suiting him the best. The best case scenario is about a 21 P.E.R. with 17.5-18.5 being the most likely and 13.5-14.5 the worst case scenario. He won't be overvalued so re-signing him won't be any problem.

That's my stance on the two players.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

As a raptor fan, I'd rather just let him walk than entertain either of these trade "ideas".


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

mo76 said:


> As a raptor fan, I'd rather just let him walk than entertain either of these trade "ideas".


LOL, David Lee is damn near on par with Bosh at this point. You should consider yourself lucky if you ever managed to acquire him in a package for Bosh.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

TwinkieFoot said:


> LOL, David Lee is damn near on par with Bosh at this point. You should consider yourself lucky if you ever managed to acquire him in a package for Bosh.


David Lee is on par with Bosh?
OK, so then you keep David Lee.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

LOL at van gundy just ripping him


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## Truknicksfan (Mar 25, 2005)

> Wilson Chandler's likely scenario is a Luol Deng type player. His shooting is extremely streaky and he has the propensity to shoot even when he's off. It can be destructive to games at times.


Disagree with alot of this. He is a streaky shooter yes, but remember he is only in his second year(bascially rookie cause IT didnt even run practice last year.) His shooting will get better. 

He dose not seem to shoot too often when his shot is off either. Not like Harrigton, Nate, and Q do anyway. He takes the shots that are open and thats it.



> Defensively, he has the athleticism to keep up with some of the second tier guys in the league, but will get burned against top tier talent as seen with LeBron James and Kobe Bryant recently. His style of play will likely be conducive to putting up stats but won't necessarily be conducive to winning.


Just so you know, he did a better job defending Kobe and lebron then ANYONE on the team. And if you watched the first time they played the lakers you will see that Chandler did a great job on Kobe. Almost every shot Kobe took had a hand RIGHT in his face. Even blocked a shot or two of his. I dont know why his defense was worse the second time on Kobe then the first.lol

He is ALREADY our best defender. (Q's defense has just totally went down hill from past years. And jefferies cant keep players like Kobe or Lebron in front of him.)

Not conducive of winning?? What? He's basically in his rookie season, with a straight head on him, hard worker, and is personally harder on himself then any knick. Sounds like the starts of a winning player to me.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*urwhat......you must be kidding.*

You couldn't be more mistaken. If you have watched as many games this year as I have, you would have noticed that Chandler is very good off the bounce. He won the Charlotte game by taking his man at the end....including Okafor. Yes, he's a bit inconsistent in his long distance dialing but he is better than last year so there is no reason tomthink he has hit his ceiling yet. Saying he is a 2nd tier defender because he can't slow down Kobe and LeBron (when they are hot) is like saying Starks was a poor defender because he couldn't slow down MJ. You are talking about two of the all time greatest offensive players ever. Come on...you're better than that.

Gallo like Rip? Lets see....one guy is a good defender and a great mid-range shooter off screens with no ability to make his own shot. The other guy is a much better shooter even as a rookie than Hamilton will ever be. He also has shown the ability to put the ball on the floor and beat his man whenever he has tried....including Tmac and Barnes, two very good defenders. He is also a very good passer but a struggling man defender (as nearly all rookies are). I just think this post is way out there in left field. There really isn't a good comparison for Gallo at this point. Shoots like Peja, Handles and passes like Odom, intense like Petrovich, and smart like, well, many players. With a good back, he is a future star.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

TwinkieFoot said:


> LOL, David Lee is damn near on par with Bosh at this point. You should consider yourself lucky if you ever managed to acquire him in a package for Bosh.


No he isn't. David Lee has been stellar offensively, but defensively he's been completely inept this year. Not just inept, incredibly inept. All he has to do is stop committing to the double team, but I question if he has the ability to do so.

Starting centers - P.E.R. against

Zydrunas Ilgauskas - 12.7
Dwight Howard - 13.7
Samuel Dalembert - 13.8
Nene - 15.1
Marcus Camby - 15.5
Andrew Bynum - 15.5
Andrew Bogut - 15.8
Al Horford - 16.1
Tim Duncan - 16.1
Kendrick Perkins - 16.5
Brook Lopez - 16.6
Erick Dampier - 16.7
Tyson Chandler - 16.9
Emeka Okafor - 16.9
Yao Ming - 17.0
Jermaine O'Neal - 18.1
Udonis Haslem - 18.2
Jeff Foster - 18.5
Al Jefferson - 18.5
Marc Gasol - 19.1
Shaquille O'Neal - 19.3
Andre Blatche - 19.4
Mehmet Okur - 19.7
David Lee - 20.2
Brad Miller - 20.4
Rasheed Wallace - 20.8
Joakim Noah - 21.0
Greg Oden - 21.1
Nick Collison - 22.3
Andres Biedrins - 23.5
*Mean - 17.3
Mean excluding Lee - 17.2*

A three point difference is pretty significant between him and the rest of the league.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*I believe you are wrong again...*

As a center, Lee's PER is 21.5 
Opponents PER at the center position is 19.6

Taken from 82games.com

I believe you are taking his season PER which is both center and PF. He is outplaying the centers he is matched up against.


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

I hate the PER


It can be easily manipulated if you really tried to.....


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*I didn't say if I ws a fan or not....*

regarding the PER. I sort of rely on a combo of my eyes and hard stats. I was just trying to make sure the numbers were accurate. After all, how can we argue intelligently when we are using inaccurate info? I know you would all do the same to....er...for me.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

*Re: urwhat......you must be kidding.*



alphaorange said:


> You couldn't be more mistaken. If you have watched as many games this year as I have, you would have noticed that Chandler is very good off the bounce. He won the Charlotte game by taking his man at the end....including Okafor. Yes, he's a bit inconsistent in his long distance dialing but he is better than last year so there is no reason tomthink he has hit his ceiling yet. Saying he is a 2nd tier defender because he can't slow down Kobe and LeBron (when they are hot) is like saying Starks was a poor defender because he couldn't slow down MJ. You are talking about two of the all time greatest offensive players ever. Come on...you're better than that.
> 
> Gallo like Rip? Lets see....one guy is a good defender and a great mid-range shooter off screens with no ability to make his own shot. The other guy is a much better shooter even as a rookie than Hamilton will ever be. He also has shown the ability to put the ball on the floor and beat his man whenever he has tried....including Tmac and Barnes, two very good defenders. He is also a very good passer but a struggling man defender (as nearly all rookies are). I just think this post is way out there in left field. There really isn't a good comparison for Gallo at this point. Shoots like Peja, Handles and passes like Odom, intense like Petrovich, and smart like, well, many players. With a good back, he is a future star.


We're not just talking about not slowing them down, he didn't do anything against them. They erupted for record breaking performances. Plenty of people have slowed them down to the extent that they score thirty, they scored fifty on him and in the case of LeBron he also dropped ten and nine against him. Regardless of whether or not they are the best in the league, you have to hold them to worse than that. He's simply not able to guard the best players on a team. That's not a detriment to him, he's just not able to do it. It's not just James or Bryant either, players like Deng, Paul Pierce, Corey Maggette, they've all had above average performances when going against Chandler. As for the Charlotte game, quoting that is an absolute joke. There were no handles involved there, he went directly through the lane unscathed and dunked the ball. There were no handles involved.

http://www.youtube.com/v/HPG4iETO4pw&hl=en&fs=1

As for Gallinari, he's actually been relatively fluid as a man defender from what limited performances he's had. He's been able to disrupt a lot of players from their games. As for his handles, he can handle the ball only when he's operating at half-pace even pulling off some decent spin moves to get around some players. However, once he starts that drive he has a tendency to not be able to remain in control. He does not shoot like Stojakovic at all. Stojakovic has a nice extended jumper which utilizes his height to enable him to shoot over people despite not getting much altitude. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/SSE1GKema_k&hl=en&fs=1

Gallinari has very little elevation in his shot and his knees remain bent which takes away his entire height advantage. While he remains accurate when he's open, he needs to work on elevating and extending his knees so that he can knock them down with a man in his face. All of his perimeter shots will involve somebody giving him the ball on an open look.

http://www.youtube.com/v/DCXdL_a18ZU&hl=en&fs=1

In regards to Gallinari, there is no doubt in my mind that he will in fact be better than Hamilton is, but his game very much resembles Hamilton's. He'll essentially be a rich man's version of Hamilton due to his height and his intellect, but he very much needs to bulk up and get some extension on that shot. If he can bulk up, it will open up a dimension of his game which is currently unavailable, the question is will he use it if he manifests it? A lot of players who bulk up actually end up worse because they don't know how to use that extra weight they put on.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

You can't trade Chandler AND Danilo.

And I don't think David Lee is on Bosh's level.


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