# ELTON BRAND: With, or without?



## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

Okay, I just have to see where you guys stand on this: Do you think this team has a better chance of improving and coming closer to championship contention WITH, or WITHOUT Elton Brand. Somebody on this board thinks they would have a better chance without Elton, personally I believe that opinion is short-sighted and basically..for lack of a better term crazy. Please voice your opinion on this topic so I can reassure myself that I am not going completely insane.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

You *somehow* left out of your post the reasoning that trading Elton for a younger (and better?) player like Pau Gasol would've been better for the team...


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

id rather win without brand, than LOSE with him....


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

leidout said:


> You *somehow* left out of your post the reasoning that trading Elton for a younger (and better?) player like Pau Gasol would've been better for the team...


Well, I'm basically leaving that up to your imaginations. Fill in the blanks with whomever you would like (within reason). IE: With Gasol *instead* of Brand, or with Arenas i*nstead* of Brand...etc. But again, be realistic. The Grizzlies wanted to get rid of a big contract WITHOUT bringing in someone who would make an immediate impact. It would make no sense to acquire Brand and win more games only to let him walk after the season. Not when you're competing for the top pick in next year's lottery. But, if you disagree, then by all means insert Gasol in his place. BTW: Gasol is 1 year younger than Elton and definitely not better...but then again, that's my opinion. Keep in mind the subject of the question: Will the player you put in his place bring this team closer to championship contention in the long run?


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Showtime87 said:


> Well, I'm basically leaving that up to your imaginations. Fill in the blanks with whomever you would like (within reason). IE: With Gasol *instead* of Brand, or with Arenas i*nstead* of Brand...etc. But again, be realistic. The Grizzlies wanted to get rid of a big contract WITHOUT bringing in someone who would make an immediate impact. It would make no sense to acquire Brand and win more games only to let him walk after the season. Not when you're competing for the top pick in next year's lottery. But, if you disagree, then by all means insert Gasol in his place. BTW: Gasol is 1 year younger than Elton and definitely not better...but then again, that's my opinion. Keep in mind the subject of the question: Will the player you put in his place bring this team closer to championship contention in the long run?


Brand probably won't even play this season. Does he know voodoo or something to help his team win more games? If he does he should've started using it to help the clippers long ago. So your argument is pretty weak there.

Also Brand got his team to the playoffs ONCE with a TON of help from Cassell. In fact, most people would probably agree that with any other PG besides Cassell, the Clips don't sniff the playoffs.

Gasol has carried a pile of crap into the playoffs how many times now? I think it's like 6 or 7 times. Gasol is better even if the stats don't say so.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

leidout said:


> You *somehow* left out of your post the reasoning that trading Elton for a younger (and better?) player like Pau Gasol would've been better for the team...


Brand is only 1 year older and definitely better.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

gasol for sure is better than brand, better all around game, not to mention superstar mentality. A leader. End of game heroics. All things brand is not. Gasol a bonified international superstar. 

In all of brands years with the clippers, let alone the fact he has never led us to anything meaningful in the playoffs, go back and watch all close games decided by a last second shot on our end. Please tell me how many times brand has won a game for us with a buzzer beating shot. Youll come up with zero most likely. 

This poll as leidout said, is incomplete. If its a question with or without brand, DUH, were better with him. But if its saying with brand or with arenas. With brand or with gasol. With brand or with XX player. Ok, thats a different story.

Brand is not a bad player. Hes just not worth superstar money, plain and simple. Theres a thread you should start, inasmuch as its the whole basis for what im saying about brand. How many people think we should cap ourselves out for the next 5+ years, and give max money to a non max player? Or perhaps is it time to try something new


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

What's with this Gasol is better than Brand bull****. Get the **** outta here. Gasol might be the better passer, but that's about it. Brand plays both sides of the ball at a high level, Gasol is an average defender at best and hasn't even averaged 10 rebounds a game before. Y'all are so quick to forget. 

Don't get me wrong, Gasol is a very good player but he hasn't even won a meaningful game yet in the NBA and y'all are talkin about him like he's Duncan or KG. LMAO. A leader? LOL. Yeah when I think of a leader a think of someone who was whining like a ***** to be trade to Chicago last year. End of game heroics? What in December? LOL. EB might not be clutch either but come on those reasons on why you think he's better suck.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

PAIDNFULL23 said:


> What's with this Gasol is better than Brand bull****. Get the **** outta here. Gasol might be the better passer, but that's about it. Brand plays both sides of the ball at a high level, Gasol is an average defender at best and hasn't even averaged 10 rebounds a game before. Y'all are so quick to forget.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, Gasol is a very good player but he hasn't even won a meaningful game yet in the NBA and y'all are talkin about him like he's Duncan or KG. LMAO. A leader? LOL. Yeah when I think of a leader a think of someone who was whining like a ***** to be trade to Chicago last year. End of game heroics? What in December? LOL. EB might not be clutch either but come on those reasons on why you think he's better suck.


Gotta agree. Elton Brand is better than Gasol.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

PAIDNFULL23 said:


> What's with this Gasol is better than Brand bull****. Get the **** outta here. Gasol might be the better passer, but that's about it. Brand plays both sides of the ball at a high level, Gasol is an average defender at best and hasn't even averaged 10 rebounds a game before. Y'all are so quick to forget.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, Gasol is a very good player but he hasn't even won a meaningful game yet in the NBA and y'all are talkin about him like he's Duncan or KG. LMAO. A leader? LOL. Yeah when I think of a leader a think of someone who was whining like a ***** to be trade to Chicago last year. End of game heroics? What in December? LOL. EB might not be clutch either but come on those reasons on why you think he's better suck.


Brand got to the playoffs once, with a ton of help from Cassell.

Gasol has been there quite a few times, sure he got his *** whooped in the playoffs, but he still took Memphis there a lot more. Maybe he's just lucky, **** i don't care, it's better to be lucky than it is to be good.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Gasol takes and makes clutch shots. Not only does brand not make them, he barely even takes them...dissappaering a lot at the very end of games. Outside of a couple of outbursts after it didnt matter anyway, he has never really been the leader this clipper team needs. Gasol has been the leader of memphis, hes been the leader of the spanish national team (didnt he win like mvp of the world championships, even having to sit out the last game), im not just looking at stats. When you play gasol at center, youre not undersized at all. Both are good, i just think gasol is better than brand overall. (no doubt each have very strong categories, such as brand being much better at shot blocking, gasol having much better outside game, etc. etc). Even stinking zach randolph has been putting up big numbers. I do think randolph is a great forward, but i would take brand 9 times out of 10 over him. 

For PF's in this game in their primes, I would give dirk, duncan, garnett, Howard 10 out of 10. Id give Gasol, Bosh, Amare 9.5/10. Brand, Jefferson, boozer, id giave 9/10. Jamison/West/Smith 8.5...etc. etc.

But were getting away from the main points again. Brand is not a 15 million/year player. Im not sure gasol is right now, but he costs like only 12-13 million now ayway. Id much rather have gasol and miller on this team than brand and maggette, as both fit into the system better, and fit better with the rest of the team makeup. Id much rather have gasol signed than brand next year as it gives us a little more flexibility cap wise, makes sure were not overpaying someone, and still we would be able to get great output from kaman. I do want brand to opt out next year, or to be traded, IF IT MEANS GETTING A SUPERSTAR in return. 

I dont want to just dump brand and then we end up with nothing. I just dont want to commit our entire cap the next few years to someone who its been proven is not going to take us anywhere.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

leidout said:


> Brand probably won't even play this season. Does he know voodoo or something to help his team win more games? If he does he should've started using it to help the clippers long ago. So your argument is pretty weak there.
> 
> Also Brand got his team to the playoffs ONCE with a TON of help from Cassell. In fact, most people would probably agree that with any other PG besides Cassell, the Clips don't sniff the playoffs.
> 
> Gasol has carried a pile of crap into the playoffs how many times now? I think it's like 6 or 7 times. Gasol is better even if the stats don't say so.


I don't what team you've been watching, but the Grizzlies have only made the playoffs three times in their entire team history, not 6 or 7. Any my argument is not weak, I'm talking about the future, not this season. What frustrates me the most is that I never heard any of this talk from you guys before Brand got injured. He gets hurt this season and you guys are ready to give up on him...now that's weak.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Has nothing to do with the injury. It doesnt change the fact that brand hasnt/cant lead us anywhere. Had he not been injured this year, we most likely wouldnt have had to even worry about him, as most reports said that he would opt out. However, its kind of in limbo now, since no one with a season long injury has ever walked away from a guaranteed 15 million.


Also, leidout was referring to your theory that no way would memphis want brand, becaues hes an impact player and would help them to win games this year, contrary to your theyre tanking to get the top draft pick they already have theory. He is correct. How is brand going to win them games this year.


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## shaunliv (Sep 12, 2005)

Showtime87 said:


> I don't what team you've been watching, but the Grizzlies have only made the playoffs three times in their entire team history, not 6 or 7. Any my argument is not weak, I'm talking about the future, not this season. What frustrates me the most is that I never heard any of this talk from you guys before Brand got injured. He gets hurt this season and you guys are ready to give up on him...now that's weak.


i agree with showtime on this one...ridiculous polls like this one are starting to make this forum weak! this forum is becoming more like AM sports radio, people are posting just about anything just for a reaction.

god forbid that Brand reads forums like this, where fairweather fans are abound.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> Has nothing to do with the injury. It doesnt change the fact that b*rand hasnt/cant lead us anywhere*.


I don't even know how to respond to that. I'm finished with all of this nonsense. You're way off the map with this one. 

And shaunliv is right, polls like this ARE ridiculous. I could never have imagined posting anything like this a year ago. But when I see these kinds of ridiculous statements like "Brand hasn't/can't lead us anywhere" it's kind of hard to ignore the problem.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Odd that Brand is getting crap now that he has been injured for several months. Never did I see any negativity against him when he was playing, I guess everyone forgot how important he is since they aren't watching him play right now. I guess this year's record wasn't a good indication of that.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

Weasel said:


> Odd that Brand is getting crap now that he has been injured for several months. Never did I see any negativity against him when he was playing, I guess everyone forgot how important he is since they aren't watching him play right now. I guess this year's record wasn't a good indication of that.


Thanks Weasel, this is the point I've been trying to make here. It's sad how fickle some people can be.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Once again, has nothing to do with injury. Some people are so clueless its incredible.

Its one thing to take issue with someone's opinions, but when you can't face pure and simple facts, then you have to wonder about what you are basing your statements on.

Lets stick to the facts please.

1. Injury or not, brand would not have led us anywhere, just like usual, look at the team we have this year. 
2. Has nothing to do with being fair weather fans or not, if you cannot see the reason those of us realistic fans are exploring other options at this point is that BRAND HAS ONLY ONE YEAR LEFT ON HIS DEAL, OR CAN OPT OUT THIS YEAR, and/or IS DUE AN EXTENSION. Why would anyone be talking about this 2 years ago when hes in the middle of his contract? Were talking about extending brand for max money next year. I for one feel that its not money well spent...
3. Brand with the bulls:
99-00 20 points, 10 boards, 2 blocks. ROY. Bulls record: 17-65. Nothing much can be said about that bulls team, they would have sucked with or without brand..you add a superstar to that team, they probably would have barely made the playoffs if that

00-01 20 points, 10 boards, 2 blocks. Bulls record: 15-67. Bulls realized hey, this brand guy isnt really going to take us places despite good stats...lets trade him for a high school player. The next two years, they increased in wins about 8 each year. Would i have traded him for a high school player? Heck no.

Clippers:

01-02 18 points, 11.6 boards, 2 blocks. Clippers Record: 39-43. 8 win increase over the previous season which is pretty reasonable considering you add a great player in brand and dont lose anyone noteable from the year before .however, might be not as good as poential considering that team was way better than us this or last year...Brand/Mccinis/Qrich/Kandiman/Dmiles/Maggette/Pike/boykins/dooling. But it was only good enough to get us 5th in the pacific division.

02-03 18 points, 11 rebounds, 3 blocks. Clippers record: 27-55. Lost miles and added andre miller. Yet, without a true leader on the team on or off the court (Miller for sure was far from it), we lost 12 more games than the previous year. Gentry fired, miller let go. In comes Dunleavvy. Before he signs he says, we have to 1. sign elton brand, 2. sign maggette, and 3. make a run at a superstar. They take care of step one and 2, giving elton a max deal. I had no problem with giving brand max money at that point. He had a couple good years with us, and despite our futility, it could possibly have been attributed to the coaching. So with the best coach we had since larry brown, one could be optimistic and say, hey maybe he can turn brand into the superstar leader we have needed...lets give it a shot.

03-04 20 points, 10 rebounds 2 blocks. Clippers record: 28-54 Ok, so individually brand was pretty much the same guy. Record wise, despite loosing odom and miller, Richardson became twice the player he was. We added kaman, and maggette continued to get better. Brand id give a pass again. At this point it was obvious though hed never be an on the court nor off the court leader. However, perhaps still a glimmer of hope he could become a superstar player, albeit a slight hope. 

04-05 20 points, 9.5 rebounds, 2 blocks. Clippers record: 37-45. With pretty much the same team as the previous year, and everyone else getting better since they were so young, this was a reasonable increase in wins. However, with the talent on the team it seemed strange that our record was so bad despite being better on paper than teams who finished ahead of us. 

05-06 25 points, 10 rebounds, 2 blocks. Clippers record: 47-35. FINALLY the clipers put it together. Brand puts up for the first time in his career superstar numbers. On one head the pessimit (i wasnt one of them...) might have said, well, its only because brand had an elite PG and leader that he did so much better. Most of us, including myself, thought that maybe brand was just a late superstar bloomer like a Tmac or something. For the first time he earned his max deal, and i thought this was just the beginning. I didnt attribute all of our success to him though. Any fool could see it was cassell's leadership, plus the best SG (mobley) we have had in the longest time, plus kamans surprisingly great year. But still, this year, i thought brand had turned the corner, and truly became a max player on the level of duncan and garnett.

06-07 20 points, 9 rebounds, 2 blocks. Clippers record: 40-42. Oh well. The pessmists were right. Brand's outburst wasnt the turning of a corner, it was mostly due to cassell's savvy and leadership. With cassell injured much of the year, Brand was back to his normal self. (nothing wrong with his normal self BTW). 

07-08 DNP Clipper Record: TBD. Regardless of his injury, he most likely would have had the same year hes had most of his career, a very impressive 20,10 and 2. However, we wouldnt have gone anywhere as even with him we probably suck more than last year due to cassell still being hobbled, mobley aging faster than a dog, and all the other injuries we have had.

That brings us to this off season. (or next) Do we extend brand with a max deal, thus capping us out, meaning the only new guys we will get on our team are minimum level guys, or guys that we draft? To me, that would be insane. We alrady have 50 million tied up with Kaman. With brand, kaman is at best a 12 and 10 guy. Not my fault we signed kaman for 50 million, but its a done deal, and hes going nowhere. So if we resign brand for max money, we will be paying 27 million a year, more than half of our capspace, for 32 points, 20 rebounds. Couple that with our backup SF, and backup SG Thomas and mobley, making another 15 million, we have almost our full salary cap for our front court and 2 backups. 

So then the logic dictates, well, really SHOULD we resign brand for the max? We have a terrible track record of drafting, so we cant necessarily bank on getting a surprise superstar all of a sudden. After this year, we have zero tradeable assets pretty much. Not that we have that great of a trading record anyway, but still, we cant bank on getting a superstar through trade. IF we resign brand, what can we expect? Without an elite PG, we can bank on his dependeable 20/10/2, but his entire career has shown us, thats not enough to even get to the playoffs, let alone win a championship.

Thus the only logical move is, like other teams, try something new. If its broke, then you fix it. If we have a forumla that cant win games for us, you dont resign that forumla for years to come. 

Going after an arenas or similar player does not guarantee us anything. But its something new, something that we really dont know if it will work or not. With brand we already know it doesnt work.

If we can resign brand for a kaman like deal, i say youve got to do that. But i dont think anyone here actually believes brand will be looking for a deal that is a lot less than his current one. 

If ANYONE here thinks brand is worth the max, and how its going to get us a championship, id love to hear that logic.


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## shaunliv (Sep 12, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> Once again, has nothing to do with injury. Some people are so clueless its incredible.
> 
> Its one thing to take issue with someone's opinions, but when you can't face pure and simple facts, then you have to wonder about what you are basing your statements on.
> 
> ...



yamaneko:what a waste of time writing this!!!

bottom line: Brand is worth EVERY penny they pay him. Excellent offensive player, tremendous defensive player, community activist, overall good citizen who cares about WINNING!


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Mark madsen is all of the last things, so does he deserve maybe 6 million a year because of that?

Its not a waste of time writing that, because its painfully obvious some people here just do not realize that brand hasnt done much in his career to take his team to the next level. Hes still one of the top 10 PF's in the game today, but i only reserve max money for guys who are leaders, true superstars, have proven themselves to take a team to the next level, or perhaps if i was a team that was rebuilding, and want to try to bring in someone new to build around, while still having lots of room to fill out the team.

It makes ZERO sense to cap ourselves out for a non superstar player, who has an 8/9 year career of not leading any of his teams anywhere, who has never hit a game winning shot, who has never been a vocal leader of the team, PLUS when it would severly handicapp any future moves we make in free agency or trade. 

Doesnt matter how much brand cares about winning, hes not a winner on the court. Hes one of the best citizens this team has ever had, and whatever he does ill always wish him the best and root for him. But for a true fan of the clippers, you have to want a championship for your team. And giving brand max money is in direct opposite of that goal.


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

You keep your good players and built around them, not let them go, especially the ones that want to play for you, which sadly is rare for the Clippers. If they don't resign EB, how do you now if a player his caliber or better will want to sign with us? Why would Arenas want to sign here without EB when he has already said that he wants to sign with a championship contender. 

Look I agree with some of the stuff you are saying like he isn't really clutch or much of a vocal leader, but he is who he is and he is a very good player who gives 100% night in and night out, who you can count on to produce. 

If the Clippers make a move or two to trade TT's contract or Mobely's contract(maybe have to include a pick to get it done) and don't resign Maggette, they will have cap space to sign Arenas. Plus why isn't anyone bringing up the fact that the Clippers can tell EB to opt out of his contract to free up cap space to sign Arenas and then re-sign EB, which they can to because they have his bird rights. The Clippers would probably go into the luxury tax but that would be a championship contender.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

People really think Brand will be better coming back off of an Achilles injury and almost 30 years old? Yikes. Brand was never taking the Clippers anywhere. He's a second banana (like Pau) who was paid like a superstar. Good in the community doesn't mean a whole lot, as you pay them to win.


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

HKF said:


> People really think Brand will be better coming back off of an Achilles injury and almost 30 years old? Yikes. Brand was never taking the Clippers anywhere. He's a second banana (like Pau) who was paid like a superstar. Good in the community doesn't mean a whole lot, as you pay them to win.


Brand never really relied on his athleticism anyway so I don't think the Achilles injury will significantly effect what he can do on the court. 

Plus the people on here who want to keep Brand know that he isn't someone who by himself is gonna carry a team deep into the playoffs, but if he can get a sidekick that is his equal on the perimeter, that should be good enough to help the Clippers become a very good team.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

painfull, ill take it one by one.



> You keep your good players and built around them, not let them go


Thats one of my points...you resign brand, theres no building around at all, since you have no cap leeway to do so thanks to the other contracts. the only guys they can really build around right now are kaman and thornton. You sign brand to max, the only building you do is perhaps a MLE guy. Out of guys signed to MLE the last few years what % are real impact players for their team? This team needs a leader, either via a superstar, or via a superstar mentality player like a cassell. It will be hard to luck into someone like cassell again for pennies on the dollar. 



> especially the ones that want to play for you, which sadly is rare for the Clippers.


Before the injury most reports were brand going and testing the market. Doesnt sound like someone who is 100% committed to staying. Also in a recent report it was noted that even after the injury, when its almost obvious he has to stay, he still hasnt come out in the open and say, hey im definiately staying here. Heck, even last year ron artest was saying things like he wanted to end his career in sactown...we cant even get brand to committ to us after an injury where its almost certain he will stay with us? Yet still, even if it was the case, you dont give max money to non max players just because they like to play for you. 



> If they don't resign EB, how do you now if a player his caliber or better will want to sign with us? Why would Arenas want to sign here without EB when he has already said that he wants to sign with a championship contender.


Before we were decent guys like kobe and arenas himself came within inches of signing with us. (if it was that far fetched of an idea, like maybe 10 years ago, they wouldnt even have considered us). If EB opts out, we will be the best team in the league with the capspace to sign someone. Or, one of the only teams that can offer a star for a superstar in trade (brand, maybe maggette, etc.). Look at what guys like gasol, etc. are going for these days. 



> Look I agree with some of the stuff you are saying like he isn't really clutch or much of a vocal leader, but he is who he is and he is a very good player who gives 100% night in and night out, who you can count on to produce.


I agree completely. Heck, elton brand is one of my top 5 clippers of all time, and i think should be the first or second jersey ever retired, if we ever do. But still it just doesnt get me past the point, you dont pay max money to a non max person, especially when it caps you out, and guarantees continued mediocrity. 



> If the Clippers make a move or two to trade TT's contract or Mobely's contract(maybe have to include a pick to get it done) and don't resign Maggette, they will have cap space to sign Arenas. Plus why isn't anyone bringing up the fact that the Clippers can tell EB to opt out of his contract to free up cap space to sign Arenas and then re-sign EB, which they can to because they have his bird rights.


Trading mobley and tt doesnt do us anything for the cap because we have to take equal salary in return. Only way we could do that is to a team with capspace who is rebuilding. And what rebuilding team would want to take on the awful contracts of TT and mobley? If maggette opts out, were still over the cap. 

With the second part of what you said, are you sure thats a possibility? I am 70% sure thats not allowed, otherwise we would see things like that happen all the time. I thought you only keep those rights if you keep that salary slot open or something to that effect. If that was a possiblity, why doesnt everyone in the league do something similar?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

In the tough West, if Brand is your best player you are going nowhere.


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

They are other ways than signing FAs to improve your team. So your argument that by resigning Brand the Clippers can't get much better, is invalid. Am not counting on signing MLE players to improve the team. Actaully most teams improve by the draft and through trades. The Suns are the only real expection.

And when I was saying trade TT or Mobely for an expiring contract, I was taking about right now, not the offseason so they would have cap space if they do that and don't resign Sam and Corey.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> In the tough West, if Brand is your best player you are going nowhere.


Yup. And we have the last 7 years to show it. 



> They are other ways than signing FAs to improve your team. So your argument that by resigning Brand the Clippers can't get much better, is invalid. Am not counting on signing MLE players to improve the team. Actaully most teams improve by the draft and through trades. The Suns are the only real expection.


No, the reason is not invalid. Its based on recent actual team history. When can it be said lately that we really got better in the draft? Kaman? Thats about it for lately, and in the begginning, kaman wasnt THAT much of an improvement over kandiman stats wise. Actually kaman was only about half the output that kandiman did for us his last year with us. So really we havent gotten great through the draft in longer than that. What about trades? Well we had a very nice trade piece in Jaric, and we turned that around into an even nicer trade piece by picking up sam cassell which did get us one year of glory. But thats the exception, not the rule. And who are we going to trade on this team, that could get us someone the caliber of sam cassell? Heck, even if we could, would it really matter? With maggette leaving, thomas and mobley being so old, cassell himself leaving, with no real PG's on the team, even a time traveled sam cassell next year wouldnt be able to help us that much. 

You talk about things like we have a history of sucess doing it, or we have real pieces we can move in order to get better. You cant trade TT or mobley at any time for less than 125% of their value or whatever the forumla is. Its VERY RARE that teams with capspace trade for trade exceptions/draft picks, and almost never people as undesireable as mobley and thomas. Look at last year. Jason richardson, someone arguably as good as mobley and thomas combined, was only able to fetch brandon wright. What of the 2 or 3 teams that will have cap space next year, would really trade us a draft pick and exception for mobley or thomas? that would defeat their whole point of having the cap space to begin with. 

Theres no getting around the facts, we are capped out no matter what realistic thing happens, if brand doesnt opt out. Brand/Kaman/Mobley/Thomas/Livingston/Knight/Thornton/08 Draft pick is already at 53 million dollars. Thats 8 players. Thats not counting Q Ross, paul davis, or any of the total 6 players we will need to sign/resign. 

But you let me know what team in their right mind would trade an expiring deal of 9 miliion for mobley. Or one for thomas. Not even the knicks would do something like that anymore. If that was reasonable, it would be great, but the odds of getting takers for BOTH of them, AND for BOTh expiring deals, is about 0%, and thats what we would need to get a shot at a good free agent signing.

About the only thing i can possibly think of for mobley and thomas, is in an extreme situation...such as if AK47 had another one of his tantrums, and threatened to leave utah if he wasnt traded, like in the preseason...then maybe a team like utah would be interested in getting whatever for ak47,since he doesnt have a great contract anyawy.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Showtime87 said:


> I don't what team you've been watching, but the Grizzlies have only made the playoffs three times in their entire team history, not 6 or 7. Any my argument is not weak, I'm talking about the future, not this season. What frustrates me the most is that I never heard any of this talk from you guys before Brand got injured. He gets hurt this season and you guys are ready to give up on him...now that's weak.


3 times for Pau Gasol without Sam Cassell is 3 times more than Brand without Sam Cassell. I hate to admit it, but Sam had more impact than anyone else on our playoff year, without Sam being healthy, i don't see the playoffs (or a championship) anywhere in the future. Either way doesn't really matter now, I've never been happy with the idea of just being in playoff contention, if we're not aiming for a championship, why even show up?

I'm not sure, but i think you've been here (on the Clipper board) since around draft time... so no, you probably didn't notice anything if you weren't here.
But there has been talk last year & even a tiny bit during our playoff run (when Brand for KG was a thought) on this board about trading Brand for the overall good of the team.


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> Yup. And we have the last 7 years to show it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then when have we got better through signing FA's? Our biggest FAs ever was Mobley. A major star has never signed with the Clippers as a FA. And Areans and Kobe ALMOST signing don't count. **** we have trouble convincing average players to sign, so what makes you think just because we have cap space that someone is gonna wanna sign with us? Our 3 best players from the playoff season came from TRADES, Brand, Cassell and Maggette, so I don't what the hell you're trying to argue because it ain't making any sense.

And we could package Cat's or TT's contract with Cassell or Maggette, so if a team wanted Cassell leadership and experience or Corey's scoring, we could include TT or Cat. 

Teams like Orlando are good examples of how it could work. They are a contender in the East and they wouldn't have cap space for years b/c of the Howard and Lewis contracts and the only way that they can get better other than the draft, is from trades, so taking back a moderate sized contract of a player like Mobley(who only has 2 years left after this one,which in a season and a half would become an expiring contract and huge asset for them) that would start on their team shouldn't be that big of a deal to them. Their biggest weakness is their backcourt, with Nelson being hurt and inconsistent and with Mo Evans starting at the 2, Sam and Cat would be a definite upgrade for a team that is looking to win now.

This trade works under the salary cap rules and I could see them taking it.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...024~138~566&teams=12~12~12~12~19~19&te=&cash=

Orlando receives Cassell and Mobley.

Clippers receives Arroyo(expiring) 
Garrity(expiring and not in rotation)
Bogans(expiring) 
Redick(2 years at 2 mil, and not in rotation)

Now if you were Orlando, tell me that you would turn that down. They give up scraps and get two starters. With that trade they would be on the level of the Celtics and the Pistons.

The Clippers get 18 mil under the cap for the offseason even if Brand doesn't opt out and they get a shooter in Redick.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

im not saying eb is not great n stuff i mean he is, but if we dont win with him next season and we have a chance to trade him for a superstar Pg or SG why not ?


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## hutcht02 (Sep 22, 2006)

Brand is a class act. He's been here through the worst of it and hasn't complained at all. Honestly, the Clippers'biggest problem over the course of their franchise life is that they lack identity. Randy Smith. Bob McAdoo. Bill Walton as he fell apart. World B. Free. My point is that fans need someone to look up to. Brand could be our savior. Unless Dwight Howard or LeBron calls us up and says "I want to be a Clipper for life" I think keeping Brand is the best move the franchise can make.

I'd rather see an inspired Clippers team lose than apersonality-lacking Clippers win. Keep Brand please.


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## DaFranchise (Jun 29, 2005)

Love the loyalty of some of you guys..EB is a stud on the offensive boards and his offensive game is still improving. Remember when he couldn't hit the 15 fter. His work ethic alone earns him his money. The mistake was giving Kaman the big money. I love Kaman but his numbers this yr are big time inflated with EB's absence. I would have much rather built around EB. Not to mention the contracts of Cat and TT. SO tell me if I m wrong but the only 2 worthy noted expiring contracts are Maggs(option) and Sam, right?


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

DaFranchise said:


> Love the loyalty of some of you guys..EB is a stud on the offensive boards and his offensive game is still improving. Remember when he couldn't hit the 15 fter. His work ethic alone earns him his money. The mistake was giving Kaman the big money. I love Kaman but his numbers this yr are big time inflated with EB's absence. I would have much rather built around EB. Not to mention the contracts of Cat and TT. SO tell me if I m wrong but the only 2 worthy noted expiring contracts are Maggs(option) and Sam, right?


Couldn't agree more about Elton. My argument in this thread for keeping him was based solely on his basketball skills, but I completely agree that his work ethic and leadership qualities are just as important. He's given this franchise an identity, which is something they sorely lacked since the days of Danny Manning, Ron Harper and Mark Jackson. 

Yes, you are correct that those are the only two big money deals that will expire after this season. I loved the Cat Mobley signing at the time, but now his and Thomas' contract really have this team hamstrung.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

team is nothing without brand...i'm shocked how some of you think gasol is even in the same league as brand...brand is one the few true two way pf's in the game...i mean that he plays defense and offense...and yeah gasol took his grizzlies to the playoffs, but what is their record again??? something like 0-12???


and during the clippers playoff run of 05-06, cassell got the glory, but brand is the one who took us there...during the playoffs, elton averaged 25.5 ppg / 12.3 rpg / 4 apg / 1 spg / 2.6 bpg

better than his regular season numbers...not alot of players do that...only the good ones...


and since everyone is blaming elton for the clippers woes, i guess garnett sucked balls when he was on the wolves...


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> 3 times for Pau Gasol without Sam Cassell is 3 times more than Brand without Sam Cassell. I hate to admit it, but Sam had more impact than anyone else on our playoff year, without Sam being healthy, i don't see the playoffs (or a championship) anywhere in the future. Either way doesn't really matter now, I've never been happy with the idea of just being in playoff contention, if we're not aiming for a championship, why even show up?


Leidout with the amazing voice of reason here. 



> Then when have we got better through signing FA's? Our biggest FAs ever was Mobley. A major star has never signed with the Clippers as a FA. And Areans and Kobe ALMOST signing don't count.


Drafting and trading compared to free agnecy is a different thing. Drafting and trading take skills that one could look at a resume for. Getting a free agent usually has little to do with the track record of a certain GM. Its usually an opportunity thing, or reputation of the organization team. That is why almost DOES MOST CERTAINLY count. You had said that no star would even consider signing with us. I say, they most certainly would and have considered us. 10 years ago, someone of arenas or kobe's stature would not even have given us a second thought, yet now, they do, which means that we will be right up there for signing someone. ESPECIALLY if we are the only semi decent team in the league with cap space, and especially if were one of the only ones who can offer someone like brand or maggette in sign and trade. 



> Our 3 best players from the playoff season came from TRADES, Brand, Cassell and Maggette, so I don't what the hell you're trying to argue because it ain't making any sense.


Brand came from a draft trade, when we had cap space and could trade for pure salary. How long ago was that? Cassell I mentioned already as being the only decent recent trade we have had. Maggette too was from way back when, also a draft day trade by orlando who was clearing space for grant hill, and again we were one of the only teams in a position to take on salary. If we had capspace, sure, perhaps we would have the opportunity to do a trade like that (even though we havent in 7 years). But that takes us back to my original point. With brand we dont have capspace, so to say one of those types of trades is relevent is false. 

Your orlando trade scenario is highly unlikely. Orlando already had their shot with mobley, and they didnt like him. Because of their huge contracts of Orlando, that makes their expiring ones that much more valuable to them to save them from luxury tax. How often to teams with that kind of salary, trade their expiring contracts for big contracts? Dont forget about jameer nelson's and howard's new deal kicking in next year. Cassell, absolutely theyd be interested in. But not if its attached to mobley's contract unless they could give up an equally bad contract. Also we wouldnt be 18 million under the cap with that trade.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> I'd rather see an inspired Clippers team lose than apersonality-lacking Clippers win. Keep Brand please.


And thats totally your perrogative. I think there are two kinds of fans. Those who want to win championships as their main goal, or those who are just satisfied with entertaining basketball, good quality personnell, etc. Nothing wrong with that. What I do take issue is with someone who tries to put both of them together like painful who thinks that we can still be a championship team with basically what we have had the last 6 years that hasnt gotten us anywhere. If he would have said, hey, lets give brand the max because hes my favorite clipper, who cares if we dont win a championship, id have no problem with that, thats a personal opinion. 



> The mistake was giving Kaman the big money. I love Kaman but his numbers this yr are big time inflated with EB's absence. I would have much rather built around EB. Not to mention the contracts of Cat and TT. SO tell me if I m wrong but the only 2 worthy noted expiring contracts are Maggs(option) and Sam, right?


I dont think it was a mistake. Kaman so far this year has shown himself worthy of even more than his contract. I think we could have gotten him for less last off season, but still its worked out fine. Even if it was a quantifiable mistake, its done, history, and we know kaman isnt going anywhere, so no sense in sweating him. You are correct with our expiring deals being cassell, and potentially maggette and/or brand. Williams as well, but thats pocket change. 



> team is nothing without brand...i'm shocked how some of you think gasol is even in the same league as brand...brand is one the few true two way pf's in the game...i mean that he plays defense and offense...and yeah gasol took his grizzlies to the playoffs, but what is their record again??? something like 0-12???


Of course team is nothing without brand period.Thats why this poll is so wack. Its not about brand or nothing. Im saying brand or kidd. Or Brand or Josh smith, or brand or arenas. Some kind of replacement. I wouldnt just let brand go and end up with nothing. Gasol is better than brand for the win column, plain and simple. Especially on this team with Kaman. Gasol puts teams on his back for the whole year, not to mention at the end of games. Brand hasnt done anything on his own. You put someone like gasol into a much better team that we have had, who knows where we would have gone. How many games over the last 4 years we lose down the stretch (when cassell wasnt playing), due to lack of that go to guy. Gasol is that guy. I wouldnt start out gasol if he were a free agent at 17 million+, i dont think hes elite. Id only give that kind of money to a duncan, garnett, or dirk. But id pay gasol 14 million a year before brand. And brand will be asking for 17 million next year. Id much rather have paid gasols 15 million than that. 



> and during the clippers playoff run of 05-06, cassell got the glory, but brand is the one who took us there...


Oh brother. I think its the other way around. Cassell was the resaon for brands increase. Just look at last year when cassell was injured again. 



> and since everyone is blaming elton for the clippers woes, i guess garnett sucked balls when he was on the wolves...


No one is blaming brand for the clipper woes. Hes just not the answer to win a championship at a max deal. Garnett was great with the wolves. Hes a true superstar, one of the best ever. Put his game winning baskets compared to brand over the last 7 years and its probably like 20-0. But twolves decided hey, paying 20 million to garnett and being capped out is not going to get us a championship, we need to rebuild and try something else, and thats what they did. Im saying we need to do the same. We know something doesnt work for US, so lets go in a different direction. Personally id like to see brand go to a team where he doesnt have to be the only star, and id like to see him succeed for all his hard work.


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

Man, what the hell are you talkin about? Stop twist my words to fit your wack ***, novel-sized arguements. And I don't give a **** if you have an issue with people like me. What because I think the Clippers can be a very good team if they keep Brand and try to bring in someone else to play with him either through the draft, FA or trade? 

And it DOESN'T matter if we almost signed someone. What did we get a consolation prize or something that I don't know of for ALMOST signing Kobe or Arenas? And I'm not saying that nobody would sign with us, I'm goin off your arguement about how you look at history and how we haven't do this or we haven't done that. And we haven't been good in signing high quality FAs. We have been decent in completing trades that get us good players. And most of the times when teams get lots a cap space they just end up overspending on players that aren't that great.

Basically, the point I'm trying to get through to you is that without Brand, the Clippers aren't that desirable of a destination for a player like Arenas who says he wants to play for a contender. So whats the point of hoping Brand leaves and we have lots of cap space if it isn't guaranteed that we can land someone that is his caliber or better? The reason we ALMOST signed Kobe was because he liked the talent that was already on the team and he felt that with him they could be very good and better than the Lakers. If we don't get Arenas and Brand opts out then we will be screwed. We will have a serious lack of talent or we will end up signing mediocre players to undesirable contracts.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

yamaneko said:


> Oh brother. I think its the other way around. Cassell was the resaon for brands increase. Just look at last year when cassell was injured again.




look at how the clippers are doing this year without brand...


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

people forget really quickly how good brand has been for us...they are of the opinion that we need some type of major rebuilding...and that process has to include getting rid of brand to free up cap space to sign a superstar savior type of free agent...i am of the opinion that we just need everyone healthy, and we need to get lucky in this year's draft...i've always been a supporter of drafting and making smart trades...waiting for a miracle FA siging will not work, because simply put, we are the clippers...no one will ever sign here...we need to build a tradition of winning built through homegrown talent and smartly acquired players....then, maybe good marquee FA's will consider the LAC...

i think that our best bet would be to resign brand, resign livingston, resign corey if his contract is reasonable, and just hope for a top 3 pick...kaman has developed nicely, and thornton can be a very nice player...

pg: livingston / rose
sg: rose / mobley
sf: maggette / thornton
pf: brand / thomas
ce: kaman / powell

i see a lineup that could compete right there...and although rose might be the best player in the draft, getting a scoring combo like mayo/gordon/or even bayless wouldn't be bad...and who knows, maybe we could even get beasley...


i think we need to just stick with out current team, and with a tiny infusion of talent, i really think our current squad can be special...


then again, maybe i'm being a huge homer...


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

Bootstrenf, me and you are on the exact same page.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> Man, what the hell are you talkin about? Stop twist my words to fit your wack ***, novel-sized arguements. And I don't give a if you have an issue with people like me. What because I think the Clippers can be a very good team if they keep Brand and try to bring in someone else to play with him either through the draft, FA or trade?


Tell me what words have I twisted? If youre going to accuse me of twisting your words have the decency to specify. Now you are back tracking and saying they will be just a "very good" team? Have you backed off the claim that paying brand max money gives them a shot at a championship? And also, are you saying that we only need to get better through the draft or trade? We lose Maggette and Cassell this offseason. Thomas and mobley will be even older. Lets say we luck out and get top 5 pick, perhaps oj mayo. In his rookie year, oj mayo probably isnt close to the impact guy that cassell was in 05.06. yet without maggette, without cassell, and with everyone else on the decline except kaman and thornton, you expect us to challenge for a championship or even be a "very good" team? 

How about this. Can you at least admit this... You said that we have a chance to dip into free agency if we can somehow dump thomas and mobleys contracts...hey, I think its 2% chance, but of COURSE id like to dump one or both of those contracts. BUT, the realistic side of me says theres a snow ball's chance in a hot wind of that happening. So, if before this deadline, we cannot trade those two guys, will you at least admit that we are borderline playoff team at best the next two years if we keep brand, and stay capped out? 



> And it DOESN'T matter if we almost signed someone.


Again, yes it does. Why can't you face the facts? Its a different clipper team. You before were using the reasoning that no one would even consider us, so we have no shot at a decent free agent. (yet somehow maintain that we can dump mobley, thomas, and still sign a free agent, so not sure why youre playing both sides). I say this is not the clippers of the 90's. Almost getting top players does count because it means that players are considering us as a potential team to go to. Almost getting kobe is 1000X as good as kobe not even thinking about signing with memphis. We almost got kobe/arenas, etc. and ended up doing another first, signing a mid level guy in mobley. Its taking steps. When you almost sign a couple of the best players in the league, it means that best players in the league no longer consider us a joke, and were a coin flip away perhaps from someone coming here in the future. 



> Basically, the point I'm trying to get through to you is that without Brand, the Clippers aren't that desirable of a destination for a player like Arenas who says he wants to play for a contender.


What "contender" will have the cap space or sign and tradeability to get an arenas?


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> So whats the point of hoping Brand leaves and we have lots of cap space if it isn't guaranteed that we can land someone that is his caliber or better?


My number 1 option is trade brand now as part of a deal for someone along the likes of AK47, kidd, carter, etc. etc. My number 2 option is sign and trade brand in the offseason again for someone along the lines of the aforementioned, or arenas, any other stars on the block. In those situations by definition were getting someone back. Now, worst case scenario, brand opts out, and we hit the market. Still, thats better than the alternative, because it gives us a CHANCE to make a move, whereas if we lock ourselves in with brand were stuck..little upside. With the cap space we have huge upside, whereas the downside is, we perhaps bring in an expiring deal like kittles, and try again the next year...we miss the playoffs, just like its likely we do with brand anyway.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> look at how the clippers are doing this year without brand...


With Brand, that would have only dropped us lower in the lottery. You expect us to have done better this year than last year with a worse team, just because we have Brand? We might have won a few extra games, but with our terrible team this year plus all the other injuries, brand wouldnt have done much for us in the win column. Not his fault.



> people forget really quickly how good brand has been for us...they are of the opinion that we need some type of major rebuilding...and that process has to include getting rid of brand to free up cap space to sign a superstar savior type of free agent...i am of the opinion that we just need everyone healthy, and we need to get lucky in this year's draft


How can anyone forget the player brand is? Theres not one person on this board who will say brand isnt one of the most solid guys we have had in 20 years+. Its just reality though. Clippers cant get it done with just a solid PF. They need a superstar player with such a mentality that will win games for them. So, all we need to do next year is get everyone healthy? Then were a championship team? Look at 05/06, our best year in forever. Lets say we get SUPER SUPER SUPER lucky and get the number one pick and get derrick Rose. And lets say everyone is healthy. Are you telling me that Kaman/Brand/Thornton/Mobley/Rose with backups of Thomas/Livingston/Knight is a championship quality team, and is better than our 05/06 2nd round playoff team of Kaman/Brand/Maggette/Mobley/Cassell with backups of Radman/Livingston/Ross? Comparing apples with apples, kaman next year is probably better than the 05 kaman, brand not nearly as good as the 05 brand, thornton no where near maggette, mobley not close to the 05 mobley, rose not cassell. Thomas maybe equal to radman (MAYBE), livingston equal to the 05 livvy, knight even with ross. Honestly, you really think that that team is going to compete for a championship? And thats IF we get the number one pick which now doesnt seem likely.



> we need to build a tradition of winning built through homegrown talent and smartly acquired players....then, maybe good marquee FA's will consider the LAC...


Again, were already past that stage, marquee FA's have and do consider us. Even "headcases" like artest said they wanted to play here if they were traded here.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

yamaneko said:


> My number 1 option is trade brand now as part of a deal for someone along the likes of AK47, kidd, carter, etc. etc. My number 2 option is sign and trade brand in the offseason again for someone along the lines of the aforementioned, or arenas, any other stars on the block. In those situations by definition were getting someone back. Now, worst case scenario, brand opts out, and we hit the market. Still, thats better than the alternative, because it gives us a CHANCE to make a move, whereas if we lock ourselves in with brand were stuck..little upside. With the cap space we have huge upside, whereas the downside is, we perhaps bring in an expiring deal like kittles, and try again the next year...we miss the playoffs, just like its likely we do with brand anyway.




seems like you want to trade brand because to you, he has shown that he is not a winner, more specifically is that he really hasn't helped our team get anywhere...so you want to trade for ak47, kidd, carter??? what have they won lately??? kid is 35, and ak47 and carter are overpaid injury-prone crybabys....with ak, he literally cried when he didn't get his way...carter just gives up...i don't want pussies on our team...if things go bad, at least brand takes it like a man...something brand has done his whole career...

you seem to value cap space more than brand, but i heartily disagree with you there...i think that brand is worth every cent and even if we were to not resign brand, there is no one better we could get with the cap space...i really don't consider losing brand and signing arenas as an upgrade....brand is a truly valuable player...shoot first combo guards and wing players in general are not hard to find...a pf of brand's caliber is really hard to find...great inside game, great midrange jumper, great rebounder on the offensive and defensive, great interior defender, and a monster presence inside as a shotblocker...pair him up with kaman next year and we can be special...remember how good we were inside duing the 05-06 run??? that was all brand that year...now imagine adding this year's kaman to our normal brand...quite the pair in the frontcourt...

have faith in our team...there is no one better for the money than brand...he is only 28...


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

yamaneko said:


> With Brand, that would have only dropped us lower in the lottery. You expect us to have done better this year than last year with a worse team, just because we have Brand? We might have won a few extra games, but with our terrible team this year plus all the other injuries, brand wouldnt have done much for us in the win column. Not his fault.


yeah, i kind of expected a good playoff team...but the injury to brand and to a lesser degree livy, killed all that...and yes i think he would've made a HUGE difference...you don't???





> How can anyone forget the player brand is? Theres not one person on this board who will say brand isnt one of the most solid guys we have had in 20 years+. Its just reality though. Clippers cant get it done with just a solid PF. They need a superstar player with such a mentality that will win games for them. So, all we need to do next year is get everyone healthy? Then were a championship team? Look at 05/06, our best year in forever. Lets say we get SUPER SUPER SUPER lucky and get the number one pick and get derrick Rose. And lets say everyone is healthy. Are you telling me that Kaman/Brand/Thornton/Mobley/Rose with backups of Thomas/Livingston/Knight is a championship quality team, and is better than our 05/06 2nd round playoff team of Kaman/Brand/Maggette/Mobley/Cassell with backups of Radman/Livingston/Ross? Comparing apples with apples, kaman next year is probably better than the 05 kaman, brand not nearly as good as the 05 brand, thornton no where near maggette, mobley not close to the 05 mobley, rose not cassell. Thomas maybe equal to radman (MAYBE), livingston equal to the 05 livvy, knight even with ross. Honestly, you really think that that team is going to compete for a championship? And thats IF we get the number one pick which now doesnt seem likely.


we really don't need a number one pick...we just need top 5 in my opinion...i think beasely would be a great player to draft in terms of pure talent, but i think we need a ball handler who can penetrate the lane and create for others...rose would be ideal because of his defensive capabilities, but i've become a huge fan of mayo because he is almost as good and has that swagger and fire...bayless would be good purely for his offense and gordon would be my number 3 pick after rose and mayo... and it seems you are already assuming that corey will opt out...i am assuming he doesn't and even if he does, thornton is proving to be a good player...(reminds me of a more athletic josh howard, just needs to work on his D)...

1: livingston / lottery pick guard
2: lottery pick / mobley / ross
3: maggette / thornton / ross
4: brand / thomas
5: kaman / powell

i really like this lineup better than the 05-06 lineup...call me crazy...and even if maggette opts out, thornton will be more than adequate and ross can be the primary backup at the 3...




> Again, were already past that stage, marquee FA's have and do consider us. Even "headcases" like artest said they wanted to play here if they were traded here.


when he was considering us, he was not a marquee player...i'm talking kobe, arenas, t-mac, etc...franchise changers... 


anyways, **** the lakers...go clippers...


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

PAIDNFULL23 said:


> Bootstrenf, me and you are on the exact same page.


I'm on that page too, you guys make me so proud. :cheers:


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> seems like you want to trade brand because to you, he has shown that he is not a winner, more specifically is that he really hasn't helped our team get anywhere.


Not "to me." Its just a fact. He has not carried THIS team to anything significant, nor a similarly moderately talented bull team. But most important is THIS team. 



> you want to trade for ak47, kidd, carter??? what have they won lately??? kid is 35, and ak47 and carter are overpaid injury-prone crybabys....with ak, he literally cried when he didn't get his way...carter just gives up...i don't want pussies on our team...if things go bad, at least brand takes it like a man...something brand has done his whole career...


They havent been on the CLippers so we really DONT know what kind of impact they do. But there is upside there. With Brand we already know what he can and cant do for us. AK 47 id love here, not as a replacement for brand but rather as part of a bigger trade involving others. Tell me one person in the league (even more than Jr.) who is not tailor made for what dunleavvy wants in a wing player. Kidd at his age still is probably going to have (if he doesnt already) the most tripple doubles that anyone has had in one season in the nba in who knows how long. Hes still got it. As history has shown PG is an important position to have someone who can both score and dish. Carter is a superstar wing. The guy who doesnt get shakey at the end of games like every single clipper not named sam does. Sure he pouts sometimes, but if youre going to use that history, look at what he did after he was traded from toronto. Averaged 26 points a game the 3 years after the trade. Not to mention 6 boards, 5 assists. Have we ever had a wing player have that kind of ability? So no, were not guaranteed to win with them, but it is at least an effort to shake the status quo of being mediocre, and on paper it does look like what this system needs.



> you seem to value cap space more than brand, but i heartily disagree with you there...i think that brand is worth every cent and even if we were to not resign brand, there is no one better we could get with the cap space...


No, i value our team being in a position to win a championship more than brand. Like i said before, my first two choices would be to trade brand, so that were guaranteed were getting something back. But i still would prefer that we let him go for nothing guaranteed instead of overpaying him, giving him a max deal, in effect paralyzing this franchise for the next few years. 



> have faith in our team...there is no one better for the money than brand...he is only 28...


Youre kidding, right? You want to give 17 million a year to start to a 29 or 30 year old who has proven that he cant play the role of the superstar the team needs? And no one better for that money in the league than he? I could name 10 people easy id give 17 million to before brand, probably 20. I love the guy, but to say hes worth more than anyone else is a bit much.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> yeah, i kind of expected a good playoff team...but the injury to brand and to a lesser degree livy, killed all that...and yes i think he would've made a HUGE difference...you don't???


Livingston has been injured for like a year now, you cant say this off season, before brands injury you were expecting him to be a difference maker. No, I dont think brand would have made a "HUGE" difference. First of all, he would have taken away from kaman's output, so its not like were talking a linear addition of 20 and 10 to our front court totals. And with one extra guy, who did you see us overtaking? You do realize that were not even at the all star break and were already 14 wins behind the LAST playoff position? And we would have overtaken who exactly? Golden state? Alredy doing great, and now added webber? Denver who has suffered a lot of injuries, and is getting healthy? San Antonio?



> and it seems you are already assuming that corey will opt out...i am assuming he doesn't and even if he does, thornton is proving to be a good player...(reminds me of a more athletic josh howard, just needs to work on his D)...


Well, yes. For two years now its been common knowledge in the media and generally that Maggette is opting out for the dual reason of his percieved missuse by dunlevvy, and he thinks that he can get better money elsewhere. (personally i doubt it, but who knows). 

Its still way too early to call thornton more than adequate, especially when were talking about replacing maggette's 18-20 points. He has shown nothing yet that tells us he can consistently put up those kind of numbers. Im hoping he shows something by the end of the year to make the maggette loss less felt, but i really dont think anyone here on this board thinks he will immediately become a consistent 20 point scorer by next year.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

For those that are talking crap about Brand, I got no remaining respect for you guys. After what this guy has done to this franchise, 20/10/2/2 with 50% shooting, he gets hurt, and we flame him? Stupid, stupid, stupid. Is it his ****ing fault the owner is in love with the biggest waste of talent I've seen in Maggette[yes more then guys like Darius] or that the front office was all over Livingston's **** and didn't deal him for Pierce nor AI, **** even Artest? Is it his fault that the front office drafts Yaroslav Korolev over Danny Granger and we can't draft to save our lives? 



leidout said:


> Brand got to the playoffs once, with a ton of help from Cassell.
> 
> Gasol has been there quite a few times, sure he got his *** whooped in the playoffs, but he still took Memphis there a lot more. Maybe he's just lucky, **** i don't care, it's better to be lucky than it is to be good.


Brand got to the playoffs once, and was one coaching mistake away from making the WCF. Gasol led the Grizzlies to the playoffs twice, and got swept both times. 

Sure, Gasol might hit the clutch shots, but have you MAYBE thought that the coach DRAWS up plays for him, while we don't run any for EB? That game we had @ New Orleans last year with Elton making a 18 foot jumper to send it to Over-Time, that was pretty damn clutch. To say you'd prefer Pau over Elton is really stupid. Even ask the Laker fans, they'd take Elton over Pau as well because Elton is a BEAST on the defensive end and can score 20 points per outing on 50% shooting. 



> Oh brother. I think its the other way around. Cassell was the resaon for brands increase. Just look at last year when cassell was injured again.


And we have Sammy this year, but no Elton, and look at where were at.


ELTON BY HIMSELF CAN NOT LEAD THIS TEAM ANYWHERE. LOOK AT GARNETT IN MINNESOTA, IS HE A LOSER BECAUSE HE COULDN'T LEAD THAT TEAM ANYWHERE? GOD DAMN, GARNETT MUST SUCK THEN AND BE AN OVERRATED PIECE OF CRAP WHO DOESN'T DESERVE THE MAX


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

The problem with the Clippers is that what should be our bench is our starting Five. Corey Maggete would be part of a deep bench on a Championship team, not a starter who makes bone headed moves even early on when it is harder to get on a roll.

I feel like we've messed up and should find a way to start over.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> For those that are talking crap about Brand, I got no remaining respect for you guys. After what this guy has done to this franchise, 20/10/2/2 with 50% shooting, he gets hurt, and we flame him?


In all 4 pages of this thread, I havent seen one person flame brand or talk crap about him. 



> Brand got to the playoffs once, and was one coaching mistake away from making the WCF. Gasol led the Grizzlies to the playoffs twice, and got swept both times.


Yes. We have all said that. But the difference is it was cassell who was the engineer of our playoff run. Brand didnt put the team on his back and carry us down the stretch of games. It was Cassell. Brand turned into a superstar for a year thanks to Cassell. Unfortunately, UNLIKE brand (until this year of course), cassell cant stay injury free for much, the following year his play goes to the toilet, and brand was back to himself. But Gasol, with piss poor talent put his team on his back and got them into the playoffs with some REALLY terrible teams, and won games down the stretch for his team. 



> Sure, Gasol might hit the clutch shots, but have you MAYBE thought that the coach DRAWS up plays for him, while we don't run any for EB?


We dont know whats been drawn up and not drawn up. Even if what you say is true, we have the same coach as before, so if thats true, why should we expect plays to be drawn for brand if they havent before. However, what does that say about the clutch confidence our coach has in our best player if he never draws up plays for him? But again, this is something we dont really know as we dont know what goes on in timeouts. 



> That game we had @ New Orleans last year with Elton making a 18 foot jumper to send it to Over-Time, that was pretty damn clutch. To say you'd prefer Pau over Elton is really stupid. Even ask the Laker fans, they'd take Elton over Pau as well because Elton is a BEAST on the defensive end and can score 20 points per outing on 50% shooting.


Its not stupid at all, its just a reality based on team needs. Could care less what Laker fans have to think. You just look at what we need with our team makeup. We need someone who can make a game winning shot. Something Brand has never done in his entire career with the CLippers. seriously. Even by accident youd think that he would have done. But thats not a diss. Thats just not the kind of player brand is. Hes a workhorse as cassell says. However, this team obviously needs something different than a workhorse. We need someone who can do things for us down the stretch and take that winning shot. Our record the last 4 years in close games shows that. We already signed kaman, no point in lamenting that decision, so we need someone that will help us get the most out of Kaman too. Brand takes away half if not more of kamans low post looks. With any decent PF, kaman is not going to be an 18 and 14 player. Howver, with brand, at his peak were talking 13 and 10 or 11. With Gasol who plays farther away than brand to the basket, it opens things up more for kaman. 



> And we have Sammy this year, but no Elton, and look at where were at.


We have a sam cassell who is 2 years older than before, still injured much of this year, and is the oldest starting PG in the league. You really didnt expect anything did you? We also dont have brand and livingston while not adding anyone significant. With a completely healthy cassell of 05/06 plus if we had a healthy brand, perhaps a healthy livingston i think we might have made it close again this year to the playoffs.



> ELTON BY HIMSELF CAN NOT LEAD THIS TEAM ANYWHERE. LOOK AT GARNETT IN MINNESOTA, IS HE A LOSER BECAUSE HE COULDN'T LEAD THAT TEAM ANYWHERE? GOD DAMN, GARNETT MUST SUCK THEN AND BE AN OVERRATED PIECE OF CRAP WHO DOESN'T DESERVE THE MAX


You must not have read this whole thread. We went over this topic on page 1 or 2. Long story short, theres no doubt garnett is a superstar one of the best to ever play the game. Look at his talent that he has had over the years. And yes, it got to a point where minny was like hey, this guys making like 20+ million now, were capped out, were not going to win a championship with this forumla, lets trade him for something else and see what we can do. Thats all im saying for now. Brand is now at a salary where were capped out, and its obvious were not getting a championship so lets try something that works. Its NOTHING against brand as a player...its just a statement of the current situation.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

2003/04 Memphis Grizzlies:
CE: Lorenzen Wright 9/7/1
PF: Pau Gasol 17/7/3
SF: James Posey 14/5/2
SG: Mike Miller 11/3/4
PG: Jason Williams 11/2/7

With a 2nd unit of Stro, Bonzi Wells, Earl Watson, Shane Battier and Bo Outlaw. That's hardly a piss-poor squad. They had the same squad the following season as well.

Pau has made the playoffs twice, with that squad, and hasn't even won a playoff game, yet, he's a winner and Elton isn't?


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Id say its a very piss poor squad. And im assuming you picked perhaps their best year from the 3 they made the playoffs with?

Lorenzen wright? Hes a career 8/6/1 guy. That was one of his better years. Pau is Pau. Posey? A Career 9 point, 5 rebound guy. Also had one of his best years in his career that year. Mike Miller wasnt anything near the player he is today then. Also was coming off of a big injury. Jason is a career 11 and 6 guy, which is what he got that year. I wouldnt say that is a starting 5 that would scare anyone. Heck bonzi was their 3rd leading scorer and he poured in 12 points off of the bench. 

Lets not forget the injuries they had that year. Bonzi missed 24 games. Miller missed almost 30 games, Which Chocclolate missed 10 games, lorenzen missed 20 games. Yet that lineup managed to get 50 wins!!!

Lets compare that to the clipper team of the same year. Statisticall elton and pau almost a wash about the same amount in every major category. Lorenzen had a better year overall than kaman, not by much. Maggette id take over posey. Q Rich over mike miller. (neither of those even close). Offensively j will was better than jaric, but defensively the other way around. The bench, clippers had wilcox, simmons, House, predrag, keyon, barnes. I would say that elton for sur ehad more talent surrounding him (many injuries too like the grizz) than pau did. Sure, there are intangibles like coaching, etc. but the grizz having TWICE the number of wins as the clippers that year?


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

yamaneko said:


> Id say its a very piss poor squad. And im assuming you picked perhaps their best year from the 3 they made the playoffs with?
> 
> Lorenzen wright? Hes a career 8/6/1 guy. That was one of his better years. Pau is Pau. Posey? A Career 9 point, 5 rebound guy. Also had one of his best years in his career that year. Mike Miller wasnt anything near the player he is today then. Also was coming off of a big injury. Jason is a career 11 and 6 guy, which is what he got that year. I wouldnt say that is a starting 5 that would scare anyone. Heck bonzi was their 3rd leading scorer and he poured in 12 points off of the bench.
> 
> ...




if i concede that the clippers did indeed have more talent than the grizz but managed only half the amount of wins, what does that say about the coaching???


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

yamaneko said:


> Id say its a very piss poor squad. And im assuming you picked perhaps their best year from the 3 they made the playoffs with?
> 
> Lorenzen wright? Hes a career 8/6/1 guy. That was one of his better years. Pau is Pau. Posey? A Career 9 point, 5 rebound guy. Also had one of his best years in his career that year. Mike Miller wasnt anything near the player he is today then. Also was coming off of a big injury. Jason is a career 11 and 6 guy, which is what he got that year. I wouldnt say that is a starting 5 that would scare anyone. Heck bonzi was their 3rd leading scorer and he poured in 12 points off of the bench.
> 
> ...



The West was weaker when that squad won 50 games, but they had superior coaching and they had players who were experienced as opposed to being young. Like I said, Pau has had superior coaching and teammates around him career-wise then Elton and is YET to win a SINGLE playoff game, but the one year Elton had a legit PG to give him the ball, he was ONE idiotic coaching mistake away from making it to the Western Finals


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## CLIPSFAN89 (Oct 12, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> Id say its a very piss poor squad. And im assuming you picked perhaps their best year from the 3 they made the playoffs with?
> 
> Lorenzen wright? Hes a career 8/6/1 guy. That was one of his better years. Pau is Pau. Posey? A Career 9 point, 5 rebound guy. Also had one of his best years in his career that year. Mike Miller wasnt anything near the player he is today then. Also was coming off of a big injury. Jason is a career 11 and 6 guy, which is what he got that year. I wouldnt say that is a starting 5 that would scare anyone. Heck bonzi was their 3rd leading scorer and he poured in 12 points off of the bench.
> 
> ...


This piss-poor Memphis team won 50 games that year and was known around the league as one of the deepest team in the league. They had a 10-man rotation due to their deep bench but even with their regular season success and the clutch play of Pau, they were swept in the first round of playoffs and there was nothing Pau could do about it. To call this roster that won 50 regular season games piss-poor or worse than the Clipper roster of that year seems a little biased. 

The 04-05 Grizzlies team that won 45 games had the exact same roster as this one, except for the addtion of Brian Cardinal, and were swept in the first round again. 

The 05-06 team that won 49 games with Pau's career year (20PG/9RPG) had Mike Miller, Eddie Jones, Bobby Jackson, Damon Stoudamire, Shane Battier, Lorenzen Wright,and Hakim Warrick (A deep talented team) but as we all know couldn't win a single game in the playoffs again as good or clutch as Pau is. 

It is ridiculous to say that Pau is a better player than Brand or even a more clutch player than Brand. Pau's numbers offensively and defensively never came close to what Brand's career avgs are and I've seen Brand make alot of clutch plays (offensive and defensive)especially ever since he got his mid-range jumper down a couple years back. We need to just build around Brand with young talent or thru some trades involving other players. If we get rid of Brand, we will be a lottery team for years to come before we have something good again IMO.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> if i concede that the clippers did indeed have more talent than the grizz but managed only half the amount of wins, what does that say about the coaching???


Thats what i said. no doubt there are intangibles like coaching. However i dont remember anyone on dunleavvys case his first few years with us..and even if he was responsible for some losses, i cant imagine coaching being that different. (twice as many victories)



> they had players who were experienced as opposed to being young. Like I said, Pau has had superior coaching and teammates around him career-wise then Elton and is YET to win a SINGLE playoff game, but the one year Elton had a legit PG to give him the ball, he was ONE idiotic coaching mistake away from making it to the Western Finals


Experienced players vs. young guys? Youre grasping at straws now. Experience wise there wasnt a huge difference between the two teams, and even still, many of the "young" clippers were at that point in time way better than their "experienced" memphis counterparts. Elton has had the superior talent in his career compared to Pau, hands down. Coaching is always a hard thing to judge, but again, I dont remember anyone complaining about dunleavvy until last year. ANd its funny how some people are arguing that pau hasnt won a playoff game. Fact is with the teams memphis had they never even should have BEEN in the playoffs. And those people who are mentioning clippers getting to the second round while pao didnt are the same who use the argument of clippers "almost" getting kobe and arenas not counting at all. Its opposite that does count. But if you dont win a championship, if things remain status quo, guess what, you wont win a championship...thats what matters. 

This seems to be digressing into a pau vs. brand debate. I maintain pau has the better track record for winning games, for elevating his team, for being an on court leader, and is a better fit for the clipper offense/personnell than brand is. But thats a side point. My main point all along is that bottom line: BRAND IS NOT A MAX PLAYER. Theres no arguing that point. Its not a knock on brand. He just is not a 20 million/year player. I dont think marion is either. For the new utah jazz that now have boozer and williams, no way is ak47 worth what theyre paying him. Etc. etc. 

If we had zero to start with (like the year we resigned maggette and brand), we had no kaman, no mobley contract, no nada, MAYBE...just MAYBE id consider OVERPAYING for brand and giving him a deal that averages 20 million...just because we still have space to mold the team how we want, and we arent going to have 30 million invested in players who take away from each others game (brand/Kaman).

But the fact is at this point we already gave kaman 50 million, hes not going anywhere. Brand isnt worth 20 million, and giving him that paralyzes the organization for years. End of story. There is no statistical argument against that right there. Its just the facts. You cant use stats, win/losses, etc. to say that brand should get the max. You cant say that signing him for the max will not cap us out unless something TOTALLY unprecedented in the league happens (in regards to mobley and thomas contracts). 

Now, if you say, im a clipper homer, i love brand, to heck with a championship i just want my favorite player on the team whether its a max deal or not...fine. Just please people dont try to say that brand is statistically or any other way other than emotionally worth 20 million a year, nor say that keeping him is our best shot at a championship when hes had years to do it with better talent than were going to have, and he hasnt gotten close. 

And for those that think this is a brand diss, its not at all. Look at my signature ive had for 3 years for goodness sakes. I LOVE darius miles and always have. For me to say that hes ridiculously overpaid right now is not a diss, its just a statement of fact. For me to say that brand should not make the kind of money reserved for the dirks and garnetts and kobes of the world (based on on the court play and results) is not a diss, its just a statement of fact.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> The 05-06 team that won 49 games with Pau's career year (20PG/9RPG) had Mike Miller, Eddie Jones, Bobby Jackson, Damon Stoudamire, Shane Battier, Lorenzen Wright,and Hakim Warrick (A deep talented team) but as we all know couldn't win a single game in the playoffs again as good or clutch as Pau is.


You going to compare the 05-06 grizz to the clippers 05-06 team? Lets see....

Starting 5:
Brand Vs. Gasol - As mentioned brand had his one superstar year this year and it carried into the playoffs, advantage brand
Kaman Vs. Lorenzen wright - Do i have to say anything?
Mobley Vs. Eddie jones - Not much of a contest here. Mobley was great on both ends of the court in the playoffs. This was probably his best few weeks as a clipper overall.
Maggette vs. Miller - Not even close. Maggette pretty much doubles him up in the statistical categories.
Cassell vs. Atkins - ROFL

backups:
Radman vs. bobby jackson - edge to radman here statistically for the 2 6th men.
ross vs. battier - surprisingly ross had more offense than battier, yet battier with more boards.
livvy vs warrick - livvy averaged about 8 5 and 5.

How can you even compare these two playoff teams? Clippers had 5 SOLID starters in double figures. Memphis had pretty much 1 guy in double figuers, gasol (jones did average 10.3). And then a bunch of role players. And they got swept...big whoopty woo. This terrible lineup got swept by the nba finals Dallas mavs. Meanwhile the clippers beat an overmatched denver team, and lost to phoenix in 7 games (who then went on to lose to dallas in 6). One could say, hey if clippers lost in 7 to suns, and suns lost in 6 to dallas, would we have lost in 5 to dallas? Who knows. But to say that memphis had a strong team in the playoffs is silly. To say that being swept by the 2nd best team in the nba with a lineup like that is something that proves some kind of point is also silly. 



> It is ridiculous to say that Pau is a better player than Brand or even a more clutch player than Brand. Pau's numbers offensively and defensively never came close to what Brand's career avgs are and I've seen Brand make alot of clutch plays (offensive and defensive)especially ever since he got his mid-range jumper down a couple years back.


No, its not ridiculous at all. Gasol has a world championship ring, gasol is an on the court leader. gasol has hit at least 6 that i know of game winning shots in the last 3 years (while brand has zero in 8 years). Per 36 minutes do you know how many points brand has averaged in his career? 19.1. Know how much gasol has averaged in his career? 19.1. Per 36, brand averages 9% more rebounds than gasol has. Gasol has averaged almost 20% more assists. I know i know...brand kills gasol in the career category for blocks? Wrong. Brand at 2.0, gasol at 1.9. Maybe one has a lot more turnovers than the other for their career? Wrong. Both at 2.5. Brand 0.4 more steals than gasol...thats good. Identical FT% about. Identical FG%, gasol with the SLIGHT edge. 

When two players have such similar career averages, what I look at is what they have done with the talent they have on their team, and what kind of clutch player they are, what kind of vocal leader they are. THATS why i think gasol is a more valuable player than brand, but not by much. But for you to say "It is ridiculous to say that Pau is a better player than Brand" is pretty off base when the stats tell another story. 



> We need to just build around Brand with young talent or thru some trades involving other players. If we get rid of Brand, we will be a lottery team for years to come before we have something good again IMO.


You too are missing the points. What young talent is going to put us over the hump when were loosing cassell and maggette? Thornton is no maggette. A guy in the 4-6 range is not going to be a cassell. And what trades can we make? No one will want to touch mobley nor thomas until their expiring in a couple of years. And im not saying give up brand for nothing. Im saying USE him to get a star back. If that doesnt work, fine, hopefully he opts out. Missing the playoffs without him, but at least having cap space for future hope is better than paying him 20 million to miss the playoffs, and then not being able to get better..


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## DaFranchise (Jun 29, 2005)

bootstrenf said:


> look at how the clippers are doing this year without brand...


Exactly!!!


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

I dont see what that really has to do with this debate


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

qross1fan said:


> For those that are talking crap about Brand, I got no remaining respect for you guys. After what this guy has done to this franchise, 20/10/2/2 with 50% shooting, he gets hurt, and we flame him? Stupid, stupid, stupid. Is it his ****ing fault the owner is in love with the biggest waste of talent I've seen in Maggette[yes more then guys like Darius] or that the front office was all over Livingston's **** and didn't deal him for Pierce nor AI, **** even Artest? Is it his fault that the front office drafts Yaroslav Korolev over Danny Granger and we can't draft to save our lives?
> 
> ELTON BY HIMSELF CAN NOT LEAD THIS TEAM ANYWHERE. LOOK AT GARNETT IN MINNESOTA, IS HE A LOSER BECAUSE HE COULDN'T LEAD THAT TEAM ANYWHERE? GOD DAMN, GARNETT MUST SUCK THEN AND BE AN OVERRATED PIECE OF CRAP WHO DOESN'T DESERVE THE MAX


Dude nobody is talking crap about Brand, i think it's unanimous that he's everyone's favorite clipper ever, pretty much. And its really not an issue if he were healthy or not, if we were sitting around .450 again, this discussion would be just as valid as it is now... we're not anywhere near a championship team. I said it back during our playoff year and i'll say it now, this lineup has about 2-3 years left to get a championship or move on, the time has come, it's time to move on...

Garnett is the perfect example of a team that has a great player... and is headed NOWHERE! Garnett has always been MVP-caliber, his fans love him, but he can't take the team anywhere by himself and it's better for everyone involved if he's traded. KG is on a contender like he deserves and Minnesota is young & is growing fast. I'd love to see Brand on a contender & see us with a young, rapidly improving team. 

Hypothetically, if Minnesota never made that trade, who expects the fans to be happy with that team? I know i wouldn't be.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

^^^^ 100% accurate post


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

leidout said:


> Dude nobody is talking crap about Brand, i think it's unanimous that he's everyone's favorite clipper ever, pretty much. And its really not an issue if he were healthy or not, if we were sitting around .450 again, this discussion would be just as valid as it is now... we're not anywhere near a championship team. I said it back during our playoff year and i'll say it now, this lineup has about 2-3 years left to get a championship or move on, the time has come, it's time to move on...
> 
> Garnett is the perfect example of a team that has a great player... and is headed NOWHERE! Garnett has always been MVP-caliber, his fans love him, but he can't take the team anywhere by himself and it's better for everyone involved if he's traded. KG is on a contender like he deserves and Minnesota is young & is growing fast. I'd love to see Brand on a contender & see us with a young, rapidly improving team.
> 
> Hypothetically, if Minnesota never made that trade, who expects the fans to be happy with that team? I know i wouldn't be.


Then who is the solution? How does this team PROGRESS without Brand? You don't throw away a cornerstone player because your PG gets old, or because your SF opts out of his contract. This team CANNOT build around Chris Kaman, hasn't that become apparent? It's not like Brand is 32 or 33 and nearing the end of his career, if that were the case I would probably agree with you. The fact is he's still 28 and has at least 5-6 more very productive seasons in him. I just don't see the logic in letting him walk in order to sign a gunner like Gilbert Arenas, how does that help? Hell, Washington has been thriving without him! Look at any perennially successful team in this league, they all have an all-star caliber PF or C at their core. San Antonio, Dallas, Detroit (until this season), Phoenix...etc. This year was a throwaway from the start once we learned that Brand was injured, that was the consensus opinion right? I just do not understand how you now think that this team is headed nowhere WITH Elton. I did not hear you saying this before the injury, if you did I would like to see an example please. Or at least offer some realistic alternatives should Brand opt out of his contract or become available for trade. Who do you acquire and how do they make this team better than they were with Brand *in the lineup?*

The T-Wolves got Al Jefferson in the KG deal, I don't see anybody like that available if Brand were to be moved. If the Clippers got somebody like Jefferson in return, along with some younger talents then maybe that would be a viable solution. But seriously, who is out there (and available) that will do as much for this team as Brand?


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> Then who is the solution? How does this team PROGRESS without Brand? You don't throw away a cornerstone player because your PG gets old, or because your SF opts out of his contract. This team CANNOT build around Chris Kaman, hasn't that become apparent?


There are plenty of answers out there, arenas just being the most obvious due to contract situation and previous interest in this team. Brand is NOT a cornerstone player for a Championship team. Tell me a championship team that won when the best player was someone on brands level, and then a bunch of average players (outside of kaman). Detroit was probably the closest team to no superstar championship lately, but billups has that end of game cassell-superstar type skills. They had a multiple defensive player of the year, and plenty of other guys better than anyone clippers will have next year. And were not saying to "throw away" Brand .Were saying trade him to get a superstar if possible. But even if he does take off for nothing, we have the "upside" to get someone here that could get us a championship. With brand on the squad there is zero upside since he caps us out, and we already know what we can do with him. 

Also i dont see why we cant build around kaman. He only makes 10 million a year, which is a relative bargain for a center of his skills, and compared to potentially paying brand 20 million a year. But regardless, even if he wasnt able to be built around, we pretty much have no choice...kaman is the only guy that dunleavvy, baylor, and sterling have all placed the untouchable tag on, so its highly unlikely he doesnt play out his contract. 



> It's not like Brand is 32 or 33 and nearing the end of his career, if that were the case I would probably agree with you. The fact is he's still 28 and has at least 5-6 more very productive seasons in him.


He has peaked 2 years ago. No player that i can recall around his age in any sport has come back from achilies rupture to actually have career years...and remember, brands superstar career year with PLENTY of talent still want enough to get us past 2nd round of playoffs. If we extend him, he will be 30 and a half when that contract starts, and a max deal means about 6 years with an average of 20 million+. Youre SERIOUSLY saying that we should do that?



> I just don't see the logic in letting him walk in order to sign a gunner like Gilbert Arenas, how does that help?


How can you not see the pure Vulcan Logic in this? Even dunleavvy and sterling have always said they need a superstar wing to be sucessful , and they have tried their darndest to get one. Is it 100% guaranteed to work? No, but we havent tried it yet, its the logical step to take inasmuch as having a near all start PF has not worked the last 6 years. Worse case scenario were just as bad as we were with brand, so its no loss. But the best case scenario is much better than with brand.



> Hell, Washington has been thriving without him! Look at any perennially successful team in this league, they all have an all-star caliber PF or C at their core.


And didnt the lakers have a better record without kobe when he was out for a while? Doesnt mean they dont need kobe for a shot at a championship. Look at championship teams say since 90-91. and who the MVP was. 9 years it was an all star guard, the rest of the time, a super, super, super star PF/C (Hakeem, shaq, duncan), who also had all star help (Clyde, kobe, robinson, etc.). 



> I just do not understand how you now think that this team is headed nowhere WITH Elton. I did not hear you saying this before the injury, if you did I would like to see an example please. Or at least offer some realistic alternatives should Brand opt out of his contract or become available for trade. Who do you acquire and how do they make this team better than they were with Brand in the lineup?


How can you not understand it? For 7 years we havent gone anywhere with Elton, now as he starts his decline, were all of a sudden going to head somewhere with less talent surrounding him? And we covered it before, why would we mention this last year or the year before when he had 2-3 years left on his contract...especially not when he came off the superstar year, and cassell we thought was still healthy...Also not during the time when we thought the clippers were going to man up and trade livvy for iverson, pierce, or any other superstar we had a chance at. But since livingston is no longer a possible trade piece, and now that brand only has 1 year left (if that) on his deal, i dont see why its such a surprise that were bringing this up? I have come up with a lot of potential deals that would make sense for the clippers and the other team.



> who is out there (and available) that will do as much for this team as Brand?


Who is out there that can make the playoffs once in 7 years for us? Im sure theres plenty of guys. lol


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