# 10 Reasons Why I Hate Michael Jordan!



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*1- People believe he was the best player in the North Carolina NCAA Championship, * when it was WORTHY the Final Four MOP (scoring 28 points): people only remember he made the wiining shot, but who was the player who stopped the adversary's following possetion? You guessed it- WORTHY);

*2- He stole the dunk:* people believe that the dunk-from-the-FT-line was his, but he was only copycating Dr. J, who first popularized it;

*3- His six rings:* people seem to believe Ol' baldy himself won 6 titles for the Bulls, when facts are that he never played (in championship years) with less than on HOF and another All-Star, who were vital to those rings;

*4- His first retirement:* people forget that the following year after Ol' baldy's first retirement the Bulls lost only ONE game more in the regular season than the previous year.

*5- Dream Team I* His airness boycott of Isiah Thomas presence in the Dream Team I (A.K.A. the best basketball team ever).

*6- Referees bias:* Never before and never after was a player so loved by the refs: Ol' Baldy could travel, carry the ball, shove people to get free without being called for a foul (remember the Jordan Rules)?

*7- NBA's prodigal son:* He was so loved by the NBA suits that even Dominique Wilkins got robbed of a rightfull Slam Dunk Championship;

*8- Magic Johnson:* the fact that ol' baldy and the Bulls stopped Magic from a sixth ring in his (tragically) last year as a player;

*9- The post-Magic/Bird era:* the fact that he became the damned best player in the world.

*10- That greedy, baldy man!* the fact that he became a multi-millionaire by sponsoring every company that would give a buck his way (even underwear!); the fact that he gave nothing back to his community (the community which made him stinky rich).

I know what you think: or i'm crazy or dum.
Don't post that. It would be rude.  
Can you argue otherwise?


----------



## Laker Freak (Jul 1, 2003)

What is the point of this thread, no one cares what you think of Michael Jordan. What is the logic in saying the Bulls were not that much better with MJ when they won the title Before he left and after he left and not the years he was gone and came back rusty. And as far as Magic goes did you expect Jordan to not try for the title.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

No logic, i guess.
Just my PERSONAL opinion on a NBA player.

Is it against the guidelines?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Michael does give a lot to charity. Sure he's no Jim Brown, but he's never pretended to be. To say he never gave anything back is dubious at best.

A lot of your problems are less with Jordan and more with what you think people think about him.

It must really suck to be a hater of Michael Jordan. He's kind of a lot of people's favorite player of all-time. I can imagine that would get kind of rough for you.


----------



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

Most of the reasons you put for hating Michael Jordan were based on other people's perception of him, which he really can't control. For example, if the refs called games favorably for him or if people think he was the MOP when in your opinion he wasn't has nothing to do with Jordan himself, and they aren't valid reasons for hating the man.


----------



## ThereisnoIinteam3 (Apr 19, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> *1- People believe he was the best player in the North Carolina NCAA Championship, * when it was WORTHY the Final Four MOP (scoring 28 points): people only remember he made the wiining shot, but who was the player who stopped the adversary's following possetion? You guessed it- WORTHY);
> 
> *2- He stole the dunk:* people believe that the dunk-from-the-FT-line was his, but he was only copycating Dr. J, who first popularized it;
> ...



Is that story about Isiah true lol? I might actually become a real Jordan fan if it is

You are correct about one thing. I have never seen a player travel so much and not get called for it like Michael Jordan.
I also agree that Dominique Wilkins deserved that slam dunk contest.
Jordan makes his money so he should be able to do with it as he see's fit. He might have given a lot of money to charity without publicizing it. I am sure someone would have written an article about him being cheap if he was cheap.
You can't really expect him to sit back and let Magic win just because lol.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Great posts, Futuristxen and MagicStick: you got right to the point. (5 star rating included ) 
It's not the player i hate.
What i hate is the misconception people have, IMHO, of his accomplishments.
Sure he was a great, great, player, but listening to people (even in this site) you could be lead to believe the man could walk on water or bring back the dead!


----------



## dsakilla (Jun 15, 2003)

So i'm assuming you are a Kobe Bryant fan, correct?


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dsakilla</b>!
> So i'm assuming you are a Kobe Bryant fan, correct?


Not right now, dsakilla, not right now...


----------



## dsakilla (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok just making sure because if you hate MJ then you have to really hate Kobe.


----------



## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

i like MJ....as a Bull. but as a Wizard, i believe he corrupted and worsen that team to the state it is now.

why couldn't he just stay retired the second time.


----------



## TrailofDead (Jul 24, 2003)

one: Worthy got the ball thrown to him in the last seconds! The player, Fred something, got so nervous he threw it straight to Worthy! Not very hard to catch a ball coming straight to you.

two: Did he ever deny that he stole it? Did anyone ever claim that he made up the dunk himself? Didn't Vince Carter win when he did the between-the-legs dunk after J.R. Rider had already done it?

three: No one says he won them all by himself. They say that if he wasn't there they wouldn't have won. Magic had Kareem and Worthy. Bill Russell had a bunch of hall of famers and all stars. Bird had four other hall of famers on his team in 1986!

four: The Bulls had won a championship the previous three years, they didn't make even make the conference finals that year. That was the first time they hadn't made the conference finals since 1988!

five: Remember that Isiah boycotted Jordan in Jordan's first all star game, getting other players to freeze him out. And when Isiah's Pistons finally lost to the Bulls in '91, he and others on the team showed NO CLASS and walked off the floor before the buzzer sounded, shaking no hands or anything. After that, a lot of NBA executives thought he would be a bad choice for the Dream Team.

six: Same for many great players, espcially ones who aren't total bad boys like Iverson.

seven: How is he responsible for how the judges scored him? If they loved him and showed bias, you should hate them, not him.

eight: OKAY! This is absolutely stupid! Because it was Magic's last year, Jordan should have let him win?!?! HAHAHA! Funny. Maybe Jordan should have faked an injury or something so that Magic could have won. Would you like him then?

nine: I don't really get this one. You hate him because he became the best player in the world? So you don't like people that are the best at what they do? Is that a reason to hate them? Do you hate Jim Brown or Gretzky or Babe Ruth or Robert De Niro, too?

ten: You wouldn't agree to let people pay you millions of dollars? I'm not too sure about whether he gave back to the community or not, but I can understand not liking him because of that. That is the only logical beef that I can understand.


----------



## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> *1- People believe he was the best player in the North Carolina NCAA Championship, * when it was WORTHY the Final Four MOP (scoring 28 points): people only remember he made the wiining shot, but who was the player who stopped the adversary's following possetion? You guessed it- WORTHY);
> 
> *2- He stole the dunk:* people believe that the dunk-from-the-FT-line was his, but he was only copycating Dr. J, who first popularized it;
> ...


1 People only remember that he made the shot?? it was a BIG SHOT, if worthy was so good, why didnt dean smith draw a play up for him?? And it wasnt as if worthy made some great defensive stand, the guy threw it to him cuz he thought he was fellow hoya teammate.

2 He can do whatever dunk he wants, are you a brent barry hate too then?? It wasnt your dunk so chill, unless your name is julius erving shut up about the dunk

3 what??? are you trying to say he had another HOF and all star caliber player with him on the floor? first off first title vs Lakers micahel averaged 30 pts and 10 boards the in games 2-5. Who was the other "hof" with him? pip? at the time hellz no. If he had another HOF player with him at the time how the hell did he win MVP back to back? cuz he carried the team. Bottom line he played with one other alll star or Hall of fame player pippen. You act like he's playing with the new age lakers. The "baldy" won finals MVP every time they won

4 First off it was lost 2 more games and that team didnt even make it to the finals am i wrong?? who cares about regular season record, wait you mean to tell me you do?? ok you seemed to have forgotten the first full season the "baldy came back, the bulls posted the best record in nba history, and the year after that they won anotehr 69 games in the regular season

5 who even cares about this, not everybody gets along with everyone else

6Great players get respect, your making it seem as if MJ coerced the refs to give him the calls. Gimme a break, ever watch Shaq run over people w.o getting called on?? both iverson and kobe average less fouls than MJ kobe averaged 2.6 fouls per game, 2.4, jordan at 2.7. and neither of which are as great as he is, kobe averages less turnovers than MJ too, hmm are the refs not calling traveling on him??

7ohh please your kidding right?

8 i guess one hand full of rings aint enough for ol magic johnson huh??

9wow what a reason

10 are you also on LeBron's back for taking 90 mill?? who are you to tell jordan who to sponsor and what not to sponsor?Jordan did plenty of charity work. "seeing the stars" which was a charity which used money to fund for eye research, his salary from his season in DC went to Washington Sports and Entertainment Education Fund, i could go on but i wont. The truth is that Michael Jordan's extraordinary success has inspired far more young people, poor, middle-class or rich, black, white or Asian, to strive for their own dreams, and what is wrong with that?


----------



## ThereisnoIinteam3 (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: Re: 10 Reasons Why I Hate Michael Jordan!*



> Originally posted by <b>TrailofDead</b>!
> one:
> three: No one says he won them all by himself. They say that if he wasn't there they wouldn't have won. Magic had Kareem and Worthy. Bill Russell had a bunch of hall of famers and all stars. Bird had four other hall of famers on his team in 1986!


 
Bird doesn't get all the credit for those championships. At least not in Boston. Kevin Mchale, Robert Parish and company all get as much credit as Larry does. Heck this town even loves that idiot Danny Ainge and he was a virtual bench warmer compared to Larry, Robert and Kevin.
Same can be said for Russell and his past teammates.



> six: Same for many great players, especially ones who aren't total bad boys like Iverson.


This doesn't make it right. The NBA is infamous for it's refs placating to their stars but it isn't fair and it doesn't make it right just because someone is considered the greatest player of all time..


----------



## alchemist (Apr 11, 2003)

I like good, controversial posts that get people talking. Like this one. Also, MJ, Stockon, Robinson, Mutumbo, and a few others are among my favorite basketball players of all time, so Ive got to defend him. I'll offer my points:


1- People believe he was the best player in the North Carolina NCAA Championship, when it was WORTHY the Final Four MOP (scoring 28 points): how many freshman come up bigtime, hitting a last second shot in the NCAA finals? At that time, Worthy was a bigger part of UNC basketball, but I think a good pro career reflects back on the school. If a guy is an average Joe in college, then is an All-Star in the NBA, everyone will say they knew it all along. If he dominates college, then stinks as a pro, well, they knew that too.

2- He stole the dunk: Ive got this poster in my room, MJ suspended in midair, every camreaman but one waiting tio snap the shot. You know the dunk contest, there are no moer original dunks. MJ cannot help it if he was born after Doc.

3- His six rings: I kind of agree, but can't you say that these other players became good because of Jordan, not the other way around?

4- His first retirement: I cannot dispute that, but, thye also did not win the title. MJ is so clutch, no one hit more big shots, or took over important games, than MJ. The only current players with that quality is Kobe and AI, which is what puts him a tiny notch above TMac.

5- Dream Team I His airness boycott of Isiah Thomas presence in the Dream Team I (A.K.A. the best basketball team ever). I dont know the whole story behind this, so, Ill ask, who should have been left off the team to allow Isiah on? Was Majerle on the team that year?

6- Referees bias: Never before and never after was a player so loved by the refs: He cannot help this, and you cant blame him for taking advantage of it. But really, this happens all the time, everyone on the Lakers get calls in the playoffs.


7- NBA's prodigal son: This is the same as the refs- if someone likes you and favors you, oh well. Its not like he paid them off, which would have truly been a problem.


8- Magic Johnson: So is Mj supposed to say, 'Well Magic, because of your continued promiscuity with many seedy women, you may have a disease that will prevent you from playing, so I'm going to roll over, die, and let you have this title.'

9- The post-Magic/Bird era: In current terms, imagine if Kobe, Iverson, Shaq, Duncan, and Garnett all retire. Suddenly, the NBA has to market TMac as the best man in the league. MJ got this same treatment because Magic and Bird left, and he lived up to it.


10- That greedy, baldy man! Is it a rule that celebrities and the very rich have to give out money to everyone they see? Why are people so upset over this? I've got 20 bucks on me, are you getting mad that Im not handing it to the girl next to me? Jordan's story of self-marketing is famous. He got involved with the right companies and the right people, and they helped him become a star.

Well, maybe I am dumb or crazy, but, boy, I love basketball. Only 2 more months!


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

All right, this is getting hot...

Yo, Trailofdead (curious name... :yes, why do you think i prefered if Ol' baldy rolled over and played dead for Magic? I hate the FACT that he beat us.
What do you think? That i like Bill Russell and Larry Bird? Because they did the same thing!!!...

People, take my post with a grain of salt! Did you actually read my 9th "reason"? There's a little tribute in it for ol' baldy...

And i don't care if MJ (oops... Ol' baldy) "coerced the refs to give him the calls" or not (off course he didn't!). What i hate was the fact that he GOT ALL THE CALLS. The same could be argued against Kobe or Shaq, like KnickStorm accurately pointed out...

These last two posts doesn't make sense about the NCAA Final. EVEN if the opponent threw the ball to Worthy (i actually didn't remember how the play really ended  ), are you saying ol' baldy was the responsable for the win instead of James Worthy? Cause it's simply not true...


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>alchemist</b>!
> 8- Magic Johnson: So is Mj supposed to say, 'Well Magic, because of your continued promiscuity with many seedy women, you may have a disease that will prevent you from playing, so I'm going to roll over, die, and let you have this title.'


Man, poster's misinterpretation of what i meant is driving me nuts!!!! :upset: 
I think i answered this in the previous post. (hopefully)

And alchemist, i like sarcasm as much as the next dude, but i SURE didn't like that remark. Remeber the man is gonna die for his sexual affaires. I sure hope it doesn't happen to any of us. If it did happen, i wouldn't joke with the fact.
Maybe i'm reading too much in your words.
If that's the fact, i apologoze...


----------



## Snuffleupagus (May 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> *1- People believe he was the best player in the North Carolina NCAA Championship, * when it was WORTHY the Final Four MOP (scoring 28 points): people only remember he made the wiining shot, but who was the player who stopped the adversary's following possetion? You guessed it- WORTHY);


Worthy was a great player, a greater college player than Jordan, and a year older than Jordan at the time. Jordan obviously had the better pro career, and that's what he's remembered for. That last college shot was just particularly picturesque.



> *2- He stole the dunk:* people believe that the dunk-from-the-FT-line was his, but he was only copycating Dr. J, who first popularized it;


I don't think Jordan ever claimed the dunk as his own, he was probably trying to pay homage to the great Julius Erving. The fact that its remembered by the fans and the media as his own isn't a reason to hate him.



> *3- His six rings:* people seem to believe Ol' baldy himself won 6 titles for the Bulls, when facts are that he never played (in championship years) with less than on HOF and another All-Star, who were vital to those rings;


Ooh, I think that's a weak argument. Pippen was an all-star and a future hall of famer, but the Bulls did not have an all-star after him and Jordan. And winning championships requires teammate assistance, sometimes significant amounts. Does anyone know who the last team was to win the championship with less than 2 all-stars?



> *4- His first retirement:* people forget that the following year after Ol' baldy's first retirement the Bulls lost only ONE game more in the regular season than the previous year.


Well, actually 2 games more. In 92-93, they went 57-25. In 93-94, they went 55-27. And they didn't win the championship. In 94-95, the season in which Jordan only played the last 17 games of the season, they went 47-35.



> *5- Dream Team I* His airness boycott of Isiah Thomas presence in the Dream Team I (A.K.A. the best basketball team ever).


Personally, I'd wouldn't feel sorry for Isiah. But if you hate Jordan for it, I guess that's valid.



> *6- Referees bias:* Never before and never after was a player so loved by the refs: Ol' Baldy could travel, carry the ball, shove people to get free without being called for a foul (remember the Jordan Rules)?


A lot of NBA superstars enjoy a similar favoritism from the referees. That doesn't make it right, but its a reason to hate Kobe, Shaq, Iverson, too...



> *7- NBA's prodigal son:* He was so loved by the NBA suits that even Dominique Wilkins got robbed of a rightfull Slam Dunk Championship;


Yes, the NBA wanted to latch on to Jordan's Marketing Machine that was generating billions of dollars for Nike, Gatorade, etc. Yes, Dominique was robbed. Oh well.



> *8- Magic Johnson:* the fact that ol' baldy and the Bulls stopped Magic from a sixth ring in his (tragically) last year as a player;


Ok. You like Magic.



> *9- The post-Magic/Bird era:* the fact that he became the damned best player in the world.


Heh.



> *10- That greedy, baldy man!* the fact that he became a multi-millionaire by sponsoring every company that would give a buck his way (even underwear!); the fact that he gave nothing back to his community (the community which made him stinky rich).


The riches that Michael Jordan made in endorsements were meager in comparison to what he did for Nike, Gatorade, Rayovac, Hanes, Ballpark. See, I just named those off the top of my head. His popularity and appeal made billions of dollars for these corporations, Jordan's share was slim.

He gave back nothing to the community? That's a little harsh, don't you think? NBA.com says that he "[is] An advocate for The Boys and Girls Clubs of America; in association with the Chicago Bulls, built the James R. Jordan Boys and Girls Club & Family Life Center in memory of his father, Established the Jordan Family Institute at the University of North Carolina, Member of the board of America's Promise and has been involved with the United ***** College Fund, Make-A-Wish Foundation, and the Special Olympics." I'm sure there's more, like when he went to China to check on sweatshop conditions.

Its possible that Jordan hasn't given back to the community to the extent that the community has given to him, but that would be impossible. Jordan was a hero for a lot of kids growing up. He was polite, well-mannered, and intelligent which made him someone to aspire to be like. No matter how you slice it, he won 6 championships. And his career stats are just mindboggling. He's the greatest ever.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Re: 10 Reasons Why I Hate Michael Jordan!*



> Originally posted by <b>Snuffleupagus</b>!
> Ooh, I think that's a weak argument. Pippen was an all-star and a future hall of famer, but the Bulls did not have an all-star after him and Jordan. And winning championships requires teammate assistance, sometimes significant amounts. Does anyone know who the last team was to win the championship with less than 2 all-stars?


Nice post.

Just one thing: his baldiness played with at least two All-stars (the pippsqueak, Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman - i think BJ Armstrong (!!!!) was an All.Star also).

About the "giving back to the community": didn't Craig Hodges get kicked out of the team for speaking out tal Ol' baldy didn't do that (at least enough)?


----------



## TrailofDead (Jul 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> And i don't care if MJ (oops... Ol' baldy) "coerced the refs to give him the calls" or not (off course he didn't!). What i hate was the fact that he GOT ALL THE CALLS. The same could be argued against Kobe or Shaq, like KnickStorm accurately pointed out...


Do you hate Kobe or Shaq because they get all the calls? I think not. How can you hate someone because they get all calls and like someone else who gets the same treatment?



> These last two posts doesn't make sense about the NCAA Final. EVEN if the opponent threw the ball to Worthy (i actually didn't remember how the play really ended  ), are you saying ol' baldy was the responsable for the win instead of James Worthy? Cause it's simply not true...


I didn't say that. You made a point about how Worthy stole the ball at the end, when all he did was catch a ball that was thrown to him. Worthy had a better game, but Jordan hit the last shot. I never said that Jordan was responsible for the win "instead" of Worthy. Neither was "responsible" for the win, it was kind of a "team" effort.


----------



## TrailofDead (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: Re: 10 Reasons Why I Hate Michael Jordan!*



> Originally posted by <b>Snuffleupagus</b>!
> 
> 
> Does anyone know who the last team was to win the championship with less than 2 all-stars?


Yeah, this year's Spurs!


----------



## Snuffleupagus (May 8, 2003)

Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong made the All-Star team in 1994, the year Jordan was retired. Both were questionable selections too:

BJ Armstrong 

Horace Grant 

Rodman was an all-star in 1990 and 1992, before he was on Jordan's team. I don't think that because these players made the all-star team at some point in their careers means that they were all-star players or that Jordan always had 2 all-stars with him on his team. When he was playing, only Pippen was the only co-all-star.

I don't know anything about that Craig Hodges reference. Have any links or anything? :shy:


----------



## Snuffleupagus (May 8, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: 10 Reasons Why I Hate Michael Jordan!*



> Originally posted by <b>TrailofDead</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, this year's Spurs!


Wow, a great point, I didn't think of that!


----------



## Cam*Ron (Apr 13, 2003)

He is obviously baiting. I can't believe someone replied to this crap.


----------



## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: 10 Reasons Why I Hate Michael Jordan!*



> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Nice post.
> ...


pippen was the only guy that made an all star team while jordan was winning championships.

your lakers had Kobe, Shaq, Eddie Jones, and Nick Van Exel make an all star team and not even go deep in the playoffs. Oh and then the lakers had Glenn Rice one year, Horace Grant, then mitch richmond. now you have gary payton and karl malone, poor argument considering your team does the same thing

ANd if you are going to use players who were former all stars to make your argument against michael jordan then you gotta add robert parrish to the list, he was on the injured reserve for the bulls in i think 1996, oh they couldnt have won it without that guy


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Bunk 22</b>!
> He is obviously baiting. I can't believe someone replied to this crap.


Obviously there's some people who easily read second intentions to any thread they read.

No Bunk, ain't baiting.

And it was a fairly good thread (IMHO)... untill your "crap" remark.

So thanks...


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: 10 Reasons Why I Hate Michael Jordan!*



> Originally posted by <b>ScottVdub</b>!
> 
> 
> pippen was the only guy that made an all star team while jordan was winning championships.
> ...


That's exagerating a little bit, don't you think?

Wasn't Pippen a perennial all-star during the championship years?
Wasn't Grant one of the best PF in the East?
And what about Rodman? Wasn't he the best defender and rebounder in the NBA during the champioship years?


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

Guys, let's not eat Paulo alive- There's a difference between expressing a healthy dislike of a player and trying to discredit his accomplishments. For the most part I don't think this thread is trying to discredit Jordan, so I don't really have a problem with it. There was the mention of Jordan "stealing" the dunk contest, but let's all be honest, there's no real reason why Jordan should have won that contest other than the fact that he was Michael Jordan playing in front of a hometown crowd.

As far as the refs, everyone knows that superstars get preferencial treatment. It's not just Jordan and it never has been, but I can see how it would be frustrating if you are rooting against a guy that is getting all the calls.

All in all, I'd say that this is a good thread that has spawned some interesting discussion. I have no problem with anybody hating Jordan for beating a team or a player that they are a fan of- if you are loyal fan, you should feel that way. I don't think this thread made any attempt to argue against Jordan's place as the greatest player in the history of the game, so I don't see any reason to argue with any of the points made.


----------



## Cam*Ron (Apr 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Obviously there's some people who easily read second intentions to any thread they read.
> ...


This whole topic is crap. If you hate Michael Jordan you hate basketball. PERIOD.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> Guys, let's not eat Paulo alive- There's a difference between expressing a healthy dislike of a player and trying to discredit his accomplishments. For the most part I don't think this thread is trying to discredit Jordan, so I don't really have a problem with it. There was the mention of Jordan "stealing" the dunk contest, but let's all be honest, there's no real reason why Jordan should have won that contest other than the fact that he was Michael Jordan playing in front of a hometown crowd.
> 
> As far as the refs, everyone knows that superstars get preferencial treatment. It's not just Jordan and it never has been, but I can see how it would be frustrating if you are rooting against a guy that is getting all the calls.
> ...


Damn it, Louie, you Chandler-lover you...
Got my 5 star rating... :groucho:


----------



## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: 10 Reasons Why I Hate Michael Jordan!*



> Originally posted by <b>Snuffleupagus</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow, a great point, I didn't think of that!


robinson is going to the hall of fame!! i dont care if he isnt in his prime right now cuz according to the dudes logic jordan played with all stars and he's counting armstrong and grant even though they didnt play like all stars when jordan was around, they got in that 1 year like someone said. Oakley was the all star team that year too, who here considers oakley to be an all star? PLus spurs were extremeley lucky webber went down or else kings would've beat em, and with nowitzki out, they barely pulled the series out vs dallas thanks to kerr. if nowitzki never got hurt who knows


----------



## Cam*Ron (Apr 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> I only think your a sad person...
> 
> I would ask you one last favour: please don't post on my threads and i won't post on yours.
> ...


This dude is sending me threats.:laugh: :laugh: He said he knows me.:laugh:


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Bunk 22</b>!
> This dude is sending me threats.:laugh: :laugh:


No threats, Bunk.
Tried the PM way, obviously didn't work.

Well, i don't really care.
Go ahead.
Slander all you want.
It's 3.30 in the mourning in my country and i have to get up to work in about 4 hours. The only thing keeping me up is my love for basketball and my enjoyment of this site... untill now.


----------



## TrailofDead (Jul 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Bunk 22</b>!
> This whole topic is crap. If you hate Michael Jordan you hate basketball. PERIOD.


I can understand why someone would dislike Jordan, I just didn't like Paulo's reasons. But hating Jordan doesn't equal hating basketball. I know a lot of major basketball fans who don't like Jordan.
And isn't it just great when somebody makes sweeping statements about everyone? "If you hate Michael Jordan you hate basketball. PERIOD." Oh, I didn't know we had an authority on here! Thanks for telling us how it is. And the period in capitals was a nice touch!


----------



## Cam*Ron (Apr 13, 2003)

You don't love basketball if you hate Michael Jordan.


----------



## Cam*Ron (Apr 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TrailofDead</b>!
> 
> 
> I can understand why someone would dislike Jordan, I just didn't like Paulo's reasons. But hating Jordan doesn't equal hating basketball. I know a lot of major basketball fans who don't like Jordan.
> And isn't it just great when somebody makes sweeping statements about everyone? "If you hate Michael Jordan you hate basketball. PERIOD." Oh, I didn't know we had an authority on here! Thanks for telling us how it is. And the period in capitals was a nice touch!


I would see if he said he didn't like him, but he used the word hate. Disrespectful to all basketball fans in general. Then read his reasons, pure baiting.


----------



## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Personally, I think this is a terrific thread. I agree with Paulo because I personally feel that Michael Jordan, a top 3 player all time on everyone's list including mine, is overrated. Quite simply the man is worshipped as a God and many people feel that he, and not Bill Russell with his 11 rings, is the greatest winner of all time. In his career, Jordan was always the best player on the court every single game. The second best player on the court in every game that the Bulls played during that time, arguably, Scottie Pippen. In Jordan's first retirement year, the Bulls replace Jordan, the league's best player, with Toni Kukoc and still won 55 games and still made the playoffs, and won in the first round. People discount Russell's accomplishment and place in history because of his teammates. Why don't we do the same to Jordan who played on a team that was exactly the same (minus himself) that won 55 games? 

Also, the calls that Jordan got were absolutely rediculous. I remember watching many games where Jordan made a move and his defender stayed with him and the refs called a foul even though no contact was made. Remember that steal he made on Karl Malone in his last championship win? That was a blatant hack. And the game winning shot he came off of a clear push on Byron Russell.

The main reason why I completely dislike Michael Jordan is because of how over exposed he was. When Jordan retired the second time, SportsCenter was entirely about him. There was not a single segment that did not involve a Jordan story. By comparison, John Stockton's retirement had a three minute segment which was the only mention of him. Wilt Chamberlin's death had a roughly five minute segment. Jordan's retirement got an entire hour show. Even today, its difficult to go a day without seeing a Jordan ad or a mention of him somewhere.


----------



## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

After reading all of your posts, I am really dissapointed with some of you because I never knew a single person that hated Michael Jefferies Jordan. Paulo, you got some serious issues. And Agoo, you got more issues.


----------



## Brian. (Jul 11, 2002)

Count me in as one of the MJ "haters" if that is the right word. He was the best ever but I can't think of another basketball player I hate more.


----------



## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

JUST ADMIT IT YOU ALL, you only hate em cuz he's too damn good


----------



## TheHeff (May 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Brian</b>!
> Count me in as one of the MJ "haters" if that is the right word. He was the best ever but I can't think of another basketball player I hate more.


Me too, damn 1991 playoffs! :upset: and yes I do hate him cause he's so good and played for da bulls division rivals very heated ones at the time too. IF you lived in Detroit you wouldn't like Jordan either.


----------



## Brian. (Jul 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: 10 Reasons Why I Hate Michael Jordan!*



> Originally posted by <b>TrailofDead</b>!
> five: Remember that Isiah boycotted Jordan in Jordan's first all star game, getting other players to freeze him out. And when Isiah's Pistons finally lost to the Bulls in '91, he and others on the team showed NO CLASS and walked off the floor before the buzzer sounded, shaking no hands or anything. After that, a lot of NBA executives thought he would be a bad choice for the Dream Team.


First off just about the whole EC all star team was behind the boycott. 2nd Jordan showed no class first because during those 91 EC finals he said this



> IN THE MIDST of the '91 Eastern Conference finals, following back-to-back Pistons championships, Jordan brashly said the Bad Boys were 'thugs' and 'bad for the NBA.' He complained about their physical style and the league's refusal to do anything about it. Jordan also bashed the city of Detroit for its violent and unruly fans.





> The Bulls then went on to sweep the Pistons. After Game 4 at The Palace, Bill Laimbeer, Isiah Thomas and the rest of the Bad Boys walked off the court without congratulating their conquerors. In that series, the Bulls went to the foul line three times to every one visit for Detroit, leading the Pistons to believe Jordan's 'whining' proved effective -- essentially stealing a third consecutive title away.


Isiah and company were supposed to shake his hand? 

In the Isiah Thomas versions of beyond the glory and sports century. It states the committee wanted Isiah on the dream team. Once MJ saw the roster he told the committee that he wouldn't play on the team if Isiah was on it.


----------



## TrailofDead (Jul 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> The second best player on the court in every game that the Bulls played during that time, arguably, Scottie Pippen.


Please tell me that is a joke. Please! Scottie Pippen, better than Olajuwan, Isiah, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Barkley, Shaq, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Patrick Ewing, and many others? I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! That is straight up laughable.



> In Jordan's first retirement year, the Bulls replace Jordan, the league's best player, with Toni Kukoc and still won 55 games and still made the playoffs, and won in the first round.


Did they win the championship? Did they get to the conference finals?



> People discount Russell's accomplishment and place in history because of his teammates. Why don't we do the same to Jordan who played on a team that was exactly the same (minus himself) that won 55 games?


Russell had arguably one of the greatest point guards of all time in Bob Cousey. One of the greatest players ever in Havlicek. In 1959, there were three Celtics, including himself, on the all NBA 1st team!!! THREE!!! That is not the all star team, that is the All NBA Team = the best players in the league at their respective positions. Jordan never had more than one all star playing along side him. Russell had a season with three *other* all stars on the same team as him.


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

> Please tell me that is a joke. Please! Scottie Pippen, better than Olajuwan, Isiah, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Barkley, Shaq, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Patrick Ewing, and many others? I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! That is straight up laughable.


By the time Bulls started to win rings(1st 3peat), Pippen was easily as good as Isiah(getting old), Bird(age and injuries catching up), Drexler, and Stockton(both making all nba teams, yet Pip also making defensive teams).

Bulls did have the two best players on the court on most nights. The only teams that had the 2nd best player were Knicks(Ewing), Jazz(Malone), Rockets(Olajuwon), and Phoenix/Sixers(Barkley).

But that still doesn't take away from the fact that Jordan is the greatest of all time. He's got the best numbers and the most rings compared to other greats. That puts him over the top.

Anybody watched Bulls vs Bullets(1992) on ESPN classic last night? Just flat out scary how good MJ was in his prime. Score 51 pts and made it look so easy. And the bulls were like ho-hum another 50 pt game. Scottie was literally laughing at the guy who was guarding MJ. Even at age 30 MJ looked quicker and more athletic then today's Kobe and T-macs.


----------



## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> *1- People believe he was the best player in the North Carolina NCAA Championship, * when it was WORTHY the Final Four MOP (scoring 28 points): people only remember he made the wiining shot, but who was the player who stopped the adversary's following possetion? You guessed it- WORTHY);
> 
> *2- He stole the dunk:* people believe that the dunk-from-the-FT-line was his, but he was only copycating Dr. J, who first popularized it;
> ...


This is pure hatred at its finest. You really sound stupid:yes:


----------



## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> *1- People believe he was the best player in the North Carolina NCAA Championship, * when it was WORTHY the Final Four MOP (scoring 28 points): people only remember he made the wiining shot, but who was the player who stopped the adversary's following possetion? You guessed it- WORTHY);
> 
> *2- He stole the dunk:* people believe that the dunk-from-the-FT-line was his, but he was only copycating Dr. J, who first popularized it;
> ...


This is pure hatred at its finest. You really sound <strike>stupid </strike>:yes:


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> *1- People believe he was the best player in the North Carolina NCAA Championship, * when it was WORTHY the Final Four MOP (scoring 28 points): people only remember he made the wiining shot, but who was the player who stopped the adversary's following possetion? You guessed it- WORTHY);


Worthy was the man at Carolina but remember MJ had to defer to him because James had the senority.



> *2- He stole the dunk:* people believe that the dunk-from-the-FT-line was his, but he was only copycating Dr. J, who first popularized it;


I agree, that dunk was Dr. J's and most people do give MJ credit as the guy who changed basketball, but before him there was Julius who was the first super athlete the sport had ever seen.



> *3- His six rings:* people seem to believe Ol' baldy himself won 6 titles for the Bulls, when facts are that he never played (in championship years) with less than on HOF and another All-Star, who were vital to those rings


I dont know about this. You can't win without teammates, and most championship teams have more than one allstar or more than one potential HOF.



> *4- His first retirement:* people forget that the following year after Ol' baldy's first retirement the Bulls lost only ONE game more in the regular season than the previous year.


The difference was him lifting the team over the hump of one game and *the title.*



> *5- Dream Team I* His airness boycott of Isiah Thomas presence in the Dream Team I (A.K.A. the best basketball team ever).


That's a fair reason to hate MJ, especially if you're a Thomas fan.



> *6- Referees bias:* Never before and never after was a player so loved by the refs: Ol' Baldy could travel, carry the ball, shove people to get free without being called for a foul (remember the Jordan Rules)?


He earned that. Dont hate the playa, hate the game.



> *7- NBA's prodigal son:* He was so loved by the NBA suits that even Dominique Wilkins got robbed of a rightfull Slam Dunk Championship;


Wilkins won his fair share of dunk contest, you shouldn't hate MJ cause he took one a way.



> *8- Magic Johnson:* the fact that ol' baldy and the Bulls stopped Magic from a sixth ring in his (tragically) last year as a player;


Jealous?



> *9- The post-Magic/Bird era:* the fact that he became the damned best player in the world.


Jealous?



> *10- That greedy, baldy man!* the fact that he became a multi-millionaire by sponsoring every company that would give a buck his way (even underwear!); the fact that he gave nothing back to his community (the community which made him stinky rich).


Again, Jealous?



> I know what you think: or i'm crazy or dum.
> Don't post that. It would be rude.
> Can you argue otherwise?


dumb? I don't think that. :whoknows:


----------



## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Chaimberlain was better than Jordan.


----------



## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>urwhatueati8god</b>!
> Chaimberlain was better than Jordan.


Great. Now this thread will go on forever.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Personally, I think this is a terrific thread. I agree with Paulo because I personally feel that Michael Jordan, a top 3 player all time on everyone's list including mine, is overrated. Quite simply the man is worshipped as a God and many people feel that he, and not Bill Russell with his 11 rings, is the greatest winner of all time. In his career, Jordan was always the best player on the court every single game. The second best player on the court in every game that the Bulls played during that time, arguably, Scottie Pippen. In Jordan's first retirement year, the Bulls replace Jordan, the league's best player, with Toni Kukoc and still won 55 games and still made the playoffs, and won in the first round. People discount Russell's accomplishment and place in history because of his teammates. Why don't we do the same to Jordan who played on a team that was exactly the same (minus himself) that won 55 games?


Now I'm a big supporter of Bill Russell and everything he accomplished, but with all due respect, to argue that he is greater player than Jordan is ridiculous, IMO. 11 titles is truly an amazing feat that will probably never be duplicated in pro sports. but just because Russell's dynasty lasted longer than Jordan's ( in an era of no salary cap and much shorter seasons where teams only had to go through 2 rounds of playoffs, I might add), does that mean that he is a better player? I say no - remember that the Bulls, at their peak, were undoubtedly more dominant than the Celtics _at their peak_. Assuming that the Celtics' peak came in the 1956-60 season (where they went 59-16 for the highest winning % of their dynasty), their best season did not come close to the Bulls 72-10 1995-96 season in terms of winning %. You could say that, with more expansion teams, today's talent is more diluted, but consider this fact- the best Celtics team lost 6 more games than the best Bulls team despite the fact that they played _only 75 games in a season_ back then, as opposed to the 82 games we play today.

Jordan was simply an unstoppable scoring force with a killer instinct who also happened to be one of the best wing defenders of all time and an as complete an all-around player as the game has ever seen. Russell was an excellent rebounder and defender who possessed excellent intelligence and desire, but I don't see any conceivable argument for him as the G.O.A.T. over Jordan.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> Now I'm a big supporter of Bill Russell and everything he accomplished, but with all due respect, to argue that he is greater player than Jordan is ridiculous, IMO. 11 titles is truly an amazing feat that will probably never be duplicated in pro sports. but just because Russell's dynasty lasted longer than Jordan's ( in an era of no salary cap and much shorter seasons where teams only had to go through 2 rounds of playoffs, I might add), does that mean that he is a better player? I say no - remember that the Bulls, at their peak, were undoubtedly more dominant than the Celtics _at their peak_. Assuming that the Celtics' peak came in the 1956-60 season (where they went 59-16 for the highest winning % of their dynasty), their best season did not come close to the Bulls 72-10 1995-96 season in terms of winning %. You could say that, with more expansion teams, today's talent is more diluted, but consider this fact- the best Celtics team lost 6 more games than the best Bulls team despite the fact that they played _only 75 games in a season_ back then, as opposed to the 82 games we play today.
> 
> Jordan was simply an unstoppable scoring force with a killer instinct who also happened to be one of the best wing defenders of all time and an as complete an all-around player as the game has ever seen. Russell was an excellent rebounder and defender who possessed excellent intelligence and desire, but I don't see any conceivable argument for him as the G.O.A.T. over Jordan.


russell was more than an excellent rebounder and defender. he was by most accounts the most dominant defender ever, and he was arguably the best or at worst top 3 rebounder ever. jordan's teams may have had a few individual seasons with greater dominance, but it doesn't compare to 11 for 13 (and 2 of 3 ncaa titles, including 56 straight wins). jordan ultimately won 6 of 16. they both won 5 mvps.

i have jordan as my goat, but russell certainly has an argument.


----------



## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> Now I'm a big supporter of Bill Russell and everything he accomplished, but with all due respect, to argue that he is greater player than Jordan is ridiculous, IMO. 11 titles is truly an amazing feat that will probably never be duplicated in pro sports. but just because Russell's dynasty lasted longer than Jordan's ( in an era of no salary cap and much shorter seasons where teams only had to go through 2 rounds of playoffs, I might add), does that mean that he is a better player? I say no - remember that the Bulls, at their peak, were undoubtedly more dominant than the Celtics _at their peak_. Assuming that the Celtics' peak came in the 1956-60 season (where they went 59-16 for the highest winning % of their dynasty), their best season did not come close to the Bulls 72-10 1995-96 season in terms of winning %. You could say that, with more expansion teams, today's talent is more diluted, but consider this fact- the best Celtics team lost 6 more games than the best Bulls team despite the fact that they played _only 75 games in a season_ back then, as opposed to the 82 games we play today.
> 
> Jordan was simply an unstoppable scoring force with a killer instinct who also happened to be one of the best wing defenders of all time and an as complete an all-around player as the game has ever seen. Russell was an excellent rebounder and defender who possessed excellent intelligence and desire, but I don't see any conceivable argument for him as the G.O.A.T. over Jordan.


I said "greatest winner," not player. Russell played against fewer teams which meant the overall skill level was higher. Jordan played before the Euros started coming in flocks and after the Celtics, Lakers, 76ers, and Pistons were coming out of their dominance. Not to mention how diluted the tallent was because of the expansion of the league.


----------



## TrailofDead (Jul 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> 
> I said "greatest winner," not player. Russell played against fewer teams which meant the overall skill level was higher. Jordan played before the Euros started coming in flocks and after the Celtics, Lakers, 76ers, and Pistons were coming out of their dominance. Not to mention how diluted the tallent was because of the expansion of the league.


Then Wilt would have to be the greatest player, seeing as he put up the craziest numbers in history against skill level that overall was "higher."


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> Now I'm a big supporter of Bill Russell and everything he accomplished, but with all due respect, to argue that he is greater player than Jordan is ridiculous, IMO. 11 titles is truly an amazing feat that will probably never be duplicated in pro sports. but just because Russell's dynasty lasted longer than Jordan's ( in an era of no salary cap and <b>much shorter seasons</b>(They had 80 games! ) where teams only had to go through <b>2 rounds of playoffs</b>(Boston beat the Royals 3/2, then Philly,4/1, then the Lakers4/3, so that is 3 total rounds), I might add), does that mean that he is a better player? I say no - remember that the Bulls, at their peak, were undoubtedly more dominant than the Celtics _at their peak_. Assuming that the Celtics' <b>peak came in the 1956-60 season (where they went 59-16 for the highest winning % of their dynasty),</b>(Gee, thy went 60/20 in 62, 60/21 in 67, 62/18 in 65, ) their best season did not come close to the Bulls 72-10 1995-96 season in terms of winning %. You could say that, with more expansion teams, today's talent is more diluted, but consider this fact- the best Celtics team lost 6 more games than the best Bulls team despite the fact that they played _only 75 games in a season_ back(<b>What year was that??? - 1959? because thereafter, 1962 THEY PLAYED 80 GAMES A YEAR!) then, as opposed to the 82 games we play today.</b>
> 
> Jordan was simply an unstoppable scoring force with a killer instinct who also happened to be one of the best wing defenders of all time and an as complete an all-around player as the game has ever seen. Russell was an excellent rebounder and defender who possessed excellent intelligence and desire, but I don't see any conceivable argument for him as the G.O.A.T. over Jordan.



I just wanted to clear up some errors in your memory. :d


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TrailofDead</b>!
> 
> 
> Then Wilt would have to be the greatest player, seeing as he put up the craziest numbers in history against skill level that overall was "higher."


WILT was the most gifted player, his countless "season" records speak to that! BUT his <b>will to win was NOT a </b> part of his physical skills, was it? I mean he had only 2 rings to the 11 that Russell has.


----------



## ThereisnoIinteam3 (Apr 19, 2003)

Bill Russell was a team player. Michael Jordan was a ball hog. I seriously doubt many people saw Bill Russell play live. You can not base a judgment on who was a better player if you didn't watch the player play his entire NBA career.

If Bill Russell had been a "all for me" type of player who knows what his numbers would have been.


----------



## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Great. Now this thread will go on forever.


That's what I was aiming for


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ThereisnoIinteam3</b>!
> Bill Russell was a team player. Michael Jordan was a ball hog. I seriously doubt many people saw Bill Russell play live. You can not base a judgment on who was a better player if you didn't watch the player play his entire NBA career.
> 
> If Bill Russell had been a "all for me" type of player who knows what his numbers would have been.


Russell... damn!
You had to put him in my thread!
Now i'm getting really depressed...

Russell (and the other great Celtics at the time) just crushed my beloved Lakers FOR OVER A DECADE!

Why would you remind me of that?
Don't you have a heart?


----------



## drewson (May 19, 2003)

Why shouldn't Jordan have been a ball hog? Why give the ball up when you're the GOAT and you can just isolate and have just as or if not better chance of scoring than anyone else.

If the Giants had the choice of putting Barry Bonds up to the plate every single time, I'm sure they would.


----------



## TrailofDead (Jul 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> WILT was the most gifted player, his countless "season" records speak to that! BUT his <b>will to win was NOT a </b> part of his physical skills, was it? I mean he had only 2 rings to the 11 that Russell has.


Okay, so you're saying that WILL TO WIN has to do with rings. Then I guess Elgin Baylor, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, Stockton and Malone all don't have wills to win! The only year when Wilt was in his prime and had a great team he beat Russell's Celtics in five games.


----------



## ThereisnoIinteam3 (Apr 19, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Russell... damn!
> ...


 I am very sorry for mentioning that name. Though technically I wasn't the first to mention the name Besides I think your team has won enough sense then to warrant the mentioning of his name
:grinning: 


To the other person...

As for MJ being allowed to be a ball hog. Funny I thought basketball was a team sport. There is no reason for Jordan not to pass the ball when he was being double teamed. An open player almost always has a better chance of hitting a shot then someone being double and triple teamed.
This exact same kind of attitude by Jordan is what killed the Wizards last year. He didn't help that team in the long run.

Remember the one time he did pass the ball. (In a game that really meant something) Didn't Steve Kerr hit a game winning shot.


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TrailofDead</b>!
> 
> 
> Okay, so you're saying that WILL TO WIN has to do with rings. Then I guess Elgin Baylor, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, Stockton and Malone all don't have wills to win! The only year when Wilt was in his prime and had a great team he beat Russell's Celtics in five games.


I know it is hard to take for some fans, but the number of rings the guy has speaks for itself. He was the one constant on those 11 rings. 

One only has to look at the year follwoing his retirement and see that the Celtics went 34/48 when they still had these players:

John Havlicek
Don Nelson
Bailey Howell
Larry Siefried
Tom "Satch" Sanders
Don Chaney

The one player they got who NEVER played with Russell was Jo Jo White, a nice point guard.

Needless to say, <b>going 34/48 the year after you win the championship</b>should tell us something else about Russell.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Rifleman</b>!
> They had 80 games!


Not always- there was 72 games in season throughout the Celtics first three title years, 75 games in their 59-60 championship season, and 79 games the year after that. Plus there were less playoff rounds, so yeah, I'd say the seasons were significantly shorter.



> Boston beat the Royals 3/2, then Philly,4/1, then the Lakers4/3, so that is 3 total rounds), I might add


Oops- good call.



> where they went 59-16 for the highest winning % of their dynasty),</b>(Gee, thy went 60/20 in 62, 60/21 in 67, 62/18 in 65,


The winning % in of 59-16 is higher than the winning % of any of those three seasons you named. That's why I referred to 1959-60 as the peak of their dynasty.



> they played _only 75 games in a season_ back(<b>What year was that??? - 1959? because thereafter, 1962 THEY PLAYED 80 GAMES A YEAR!)


Yes, they played 75 games in 1959 only- I should have been more specific about that.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> As for MJ being allowed to be a ball hog. Funny I thought basketball was a team sport. There is no reason for Jordan not to pass the ball when he was being double teamed. An open player almost always has a better chance of hitting a shot then someone being double and triple teamed.
> This exact same kind of attitude by Jordan is what killed the Wizards last year. He didn't help that team in the long run.


Jordan was only a "ballhog" in his early years- from around 1990 on he was an extremely wiling and able passer as well as an ideal floor leader. To say that Jordan was a "ballhog" during the dynasty years is absolutely untrue- he took over the game when he needed to, but he undoubtedly made his teammates better. That's huge part of what made him such a great player.


----------



## Kyle (Jul 1, 2003)

Good job. Looks like you thought this out well.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> I said "greatest winner," not player. Russell played against fewer teams which meant the overall skill level was higher. Jordan played before the Euros started coming in flocks and after the Celtics, Lakers, 76ers, and Pistons were coming out of their dominance. Not to mention how diluted the tallent was because of the expansion of the league.


"Greatest winner" is a very dubious title. You could make the case that Jordan is the greatest winner of all time because he was the driving force behind the _winningest_ team of all time. Russell's dynasty lasted longer than Jordan's, but does that mean that Russell's dynasty was more dominant? No, it just means that it lasted for longer. If anything Jordan's was more dominant- it just didn't last for as long.

And I hope you are not trying to argue that Jordan played in a "weak" era of the NBA. The late 80's and early 90's are widely considered to be the "golden age" of basketball. That was the dream team era- a time when dominant centers like Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Zo, Shaq and Mutumbo were all in their primes, as were guys like Barkley, Malone, Kemp, Payton, Stockton, Grant Hill and in the earlier years Isaiah. The competition then, IMO, was even better than today's. I don't think that any of the "Euro's" in today's league would have presented much of a challenge for Jordan.


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> "Greatest winner" is a very dubious title. You could make the case that Jordan is the greatest winner of all time because he was the driving force behind the _winningest_ team of all time. <b>Russell's dynasty lasted longer than Jordan's, but does that mean that Russell's dynasty was more dominant? No, it just means that it lasted for longer. If anything Jordan's was more dominant- it just didn't last for as long.</b><font color=blue>I don't know how you can be more dominant than 11/13 and 8 in a row....that is as dominant as it gets and the "fact" is that the Jordan dynasty did not EQUAL that dominance of the Russell dynasty.</font>
> 
> And I hope you are not trying to argue that Jordan played in a "weak" era of the NBA. The late 80's and early 90's are widely considered to be the "golden age" of basketball. That was the dream team era- a time when dominant centers like Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Zo, Shaq and Mutumbo were all in their primes, as were guys like Barkley, Malone, Kemp, Payton, Stockton, Grant Hill and in the earlier years Isaiah. The competition then, IMO, was even better than today's. I don't think that any of the "Euro's" in today's league would have presented much of a challenge for Jordan.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> I don't know how you can be more dominant than 11/13 and 8 in a row....that is as dominant as it gets and the "fact" is that the Jordan dynasty did not EQUAL that dominance of the Russell dynasty.


Sorry, but I have to disagree here. I think of "dominance" as being how good the dynasty was at it's best, and the Celtics never had a single season where they were as good as the 1995-96 Bulls. The only "fact" here is that the *longevity* of the Bulls dominance did not equal the *longevity* of the Celtics dominance.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

louie, the best the bulls did was 3peat, the celts won 8 in a row, 11 for 13. they loomed over their sport far greater than the bulls did. yes the bulls '96 team may have been the most dominant ever, but that doesn't put them on equal footing with a team winning 8 straight. 

one of the fuels for the bulls dominance in '96 was their loss in '95. when you're winning 8 straight, the regular season dominance doesn't merit the same priority. and with far fewer teams, you do play the top teams more often.

bulls were incredible, and for their era, they were remarkable. but they fall short of russells celts. even if you consider it more impressive to do today, you still can't beat 11 for 13 (how much more should they have done for it to have been equivalent?). 

and again, jordan played 16 seasons, not just 6.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> bulls were incredible, and for their era, they were remarkable. but they fall short of russells celts. even if you consider it more impressive to do today, you still can't beat 11 for 13 (how much more should they have done for it to have been equivalent?).
> 
> and again, jordan played 16 seasons, not just 6.


You just CAN'T beat that! 
That sums it up, IMO...


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> louie, the best the bulls did was 3peat, the celts won 8 in a row, 11 for 13. they loomed over their sport far greater than the bulls did. yes the bulls '96 team may have been the most dominant ever, but that doesn't put them on equal footing with a team winning 8 straight.


Of course it doesn't- that's not what I'm saying. 11 titles in 13 seasons is an accomplishment that will probably never be duplicated, and if you wanna call them the "greatest dynasty ever", I have no problem with that- they are. 

All I'm saying is that the best teams of the Bulls dynasty were more dominant than the bests team of the Celtics dynasty- statitistically this is true. Though they obivously did it for a much longer period, the Celtics were not "better" than the Bulls during the time that they were around.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

I feel you Louie, if the 90's Bulls faced the 60's Celtics teams, I'd give the edge to Chicago. Those Celtic teams were great, Russell was one of a kind, but Mike in that era of basketball is hard to match up with.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> I feel you Louie, if the 90's Bulls faced the 60's Celtics teams, I'd give the edge to Chicago. Those Celtic teams were great, Russell was one of a kind, but Mike in that era of basketball is hard to match up with.


Exactly.:yes: 

IMO, the only teams in the history of the game that could have challenged the 95-96 Bulls are the 85-86 Celtics and the 86-87 Lakers. Those three teams stand alone as the greatest ever, IMO.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Exactly.:yes:
> 
> IMO, the only teams in the history of the game that could have challenged the 95-96 Bulls are the 85-86 Celtics and the 86-87 Lakers. Those three teams stand alone as the greatest ever, IMO.


Can the 2001 Lakers get some love?


----------



## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Can the 2001 Lakers get some love?


It is possible. Shaq and Kobe did their thing but Fisher was unconcious from downtown. The team D was pretty strong too. Shaq was fit and nimble. Kobe was very good. Fisher could still move laterally. Fox was very good. Grant was solid. Ultimately, their lack of depth would hurt them. The Lakers and Bulls had canyon-like depth while the 01' Lakers were about as shallow as a puddle. Shaq and Kobe would have to play for 48 mins just to keep it close.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

The depth wasn't bad: Lue, Shaw, George, Horry, Harper and Rider(both faded away towards the end of the season, but were there in the beginning), SLava, Foster, and Penberty. They weren't bad considering they had that 15-1 run through the playoffs.


----------



## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

Great thread!

I missed it somehow from the start, but had the fun reading it all till last message. I also dont like MJ, I cant say I hate him, just dont like. Mostly because people and media are overrating him. That example with Stockton getting little or better say no respect after his retiring comparing to Jordan's was so accurate. And some of 10 Paulo reasons were very similar to mine :yes:


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Why hate MJ for getting the respect of the world? Because, Stockton didn't. That's like hating da playa. The game is what you should be hatin'

You gotta hate da game cause you can't hate da playa!


----------



## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> Why hate MJ for getting the respect of the world? Because, Stockton didn't. That's like hating da playa. The game is what you should be hatin'
> 
> You gotta hate da game cause you can't hate da playa!


Respect is great, but when that respect overgrow to worshiping its really annoying. If biggest fans do so its kinda understandable, but when media writes anytime just about him... 

Blah, his Wizards were so crappy, but still I think he was mentioned more times than MVP Tim Duncan...

And about game... you all say hes not guilty that refs liked him, but if he was so great, maybe he shouldnt used that ref help...


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Zalgirinis</b>!
> Respect is great, but when that respect overgrow to worshiping its really annoying. If biggest fans do so its kinda understandable, but when media writes anytime just about him...


Its like that in every sport. Lance Armstrong is the greatest and they worship him. Bonds is the greatest? They would worship him if he had half a personality. Wayne got his props like MJ. That's just how it is.



> Blah, his Wizards were so crappy, but still I think he was mentioned more times than MVP Tim Duncan...


The Wiz just barely missed the playoffs and that was a 40 year old MJ. That fact that he could do what he does at that age is amazing. 



> And about game... you all say hes not guilty that refs liked him, but if he was so great, maybe he shouldnt used that ref help...


That's not his fault. What should MJ do say, nah that's not really a foul, ball up for the other team?


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Its like that in every sport. Lance Armstrong is the greatest and they worship him. Bonds is the greatest? They would worship him if he had half a personality.


Bonds is my boy!:boxing:
What do you mean he doesn't have personality. His personality is "I'm the greatest hitter of all-time and the rest of you guys are fleas on the big dog." You gotta love a guy who can have the attitude and do what he does on the field. Also, he gives all his praise to god and his family. He is a good example of what it takes to be a winner in anything you do.

:jam:



> Wayne got his props like MJ. That's just how it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Sorry man, I like Bonds too and wouldn't be ashamed to say he is the greatest baseball player of all time, that's arguable, but he's an a-hole. That dude has no charisma, he shuns off reporters, and fans all the time. Sure, you might catch him on a good day, but most of the time, he's a major D


----------



## numb555 (May 25, 2003)

I don't think anyone is over-rating MJ, his accomplishments speaks for itself. But, also MJ is prolly a few in history if not the one that lived up to media hype, fan expectations etc. etc. 

When i watch MJ, he just gives me the feeling of invincibility. He was the true superman, last few seconds of the game, the other team knows he gonna get it, the other coaches know he gonna get it, the players knows he gonna get it, the fans knows he gonna get it..he knows he gona get it. What does he do, Nothing but Net!

MJ wasn't over hyped, he was the hype. I use to hate the game of basketball until watching a few of Micheal Jordans runs. Now, its plain in simple my favourite sport to watch! 

Some may come close to MJ athletic ability, some may be close to his stats or even surpass it....But no one in the history of the game had the combination of ahtletic ability, desire, competiveness, and Charisma.


----------



## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> Its like that in every sport. Lance Armstrong is the greatest and they worship him.


I wont expand talking about this doped "greatest ever"cyclist :upset:
I dont like MJ, but I hate Lance...



> The Wiz just barely missed the playoffs and that was a 40 year old MJ. That fact that he could do what he does at that age is amazing.


9th place where?  In the East? Yea, thats really an achievement. One more time Stockton, at 40 he stayed nearly the same as before and brought Utah to playoffs in West (conference where just 1-2 East teams could compete for PO). At 40 but no respect for what he did. MJ shooting 3/19 (dont remember exactly), well hes great anyway, forget it...


----------



## burnet (May 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>numb555</b>!
> I don't think anyone is over-rating MJ,
> Some may come close to MJ athletic ability, some may be close to his stats or even surpass it....But no one in the history of the game had the combination of ahtletic ability, desire, competiveness, and Charisma.


:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>numb555</b>!
> Some may come close to MJ athletic ability, some may be close to his stats or even surpass it....But no one in the history of the game had the combination of ahtletic ability, desire, competiveness, and Charisma.


That's simply NO TRUE!!!!....

There were a LOT of player whose desire to win it all carried him and the team.

I could name a few: Jerry West, Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Dr. J.....................

In the "stats" department you have no argument here. 

The rest is purely ficcional.... (IMO)


----------



## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

Jordan was the best ever...its laughable to think otherwise.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> That's simply NO TRUE!!!!....
> ...


I don't know about Jerry and Russel, but i'd be willing to bet Magic and Dr. J would both admit Jordan was far superior to them. I know Bird believed that, he wrote it in his own book.


----------



## LLP4113 (Jul 30, 2003)

MJ is a always going to be the best. This thread is like arguing that carbon dioxide is better to breathe than Oxygen. I mean you said you hated him that's ur opinion. So I leave it like it like that.
I think this thread is pointless, but it's his opinion and he is most likely not going to change it.:no: Oh well.


----------



## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

I really don't care why you hate MJ. How about you put you thinking skills on and tell us why you like him.


----------



## numb555 (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> That's simply NO TRUE!!!!....
> ...


Bird and Magic Were great players, they have all those qualities. But i just think MJ took it to another level, when he stepped on the court u know something great was gonna happen and it usually does. I never get that from watchin anyone in any sport since MJ retired the second time, just watching some1 who knew he was invincible and was on a different level than anyone else....It was awesome!!!

Tiger woods was like that, but he still dissapointed me at times...Jordan didn't, he give us all hope of perfection! Its maybe because "i wanna be like mike"!!


----------



## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> *1- People believe he was the best player in the North Carolina NCAA Championship, * when it was WORTHY the Final Four MOP (scoring 28 points): people only remember he made the wiining shot, but who was the player who stopped the adversary's following possetion? You guessed it- WORTHY);
> 
> *2- He stole the dunk:* people believe that the dunk-from-the-FT-line was his, but he was only copycating Dr. J, who first popularized it;
> ...


I didn't read all the replies so I apologize if I repeat some things. You know I once hated Jordan because I felt he was overhyped and overrated but that was maybe back in 89. The more I watched him especially when he started to win the more I realized just how great of a talent he was. MJ was special...he is one of the few players that are or have been beyond their sport...seriously. He is today's version of Babe Ruth in American professional sports...mythical in his own right.

1) I always thought MJ was given more credit than he should have been given in college. Worthy was clearly the best player on that championship team but MJ was great in his own right. Although North Carolina was never able to duplicate that same success with Jordan once Worthy left he was still a solid college player. A bit hyped up because of the exciting way he played but solid. As for this point and the championship there is no question that Worthy was the best player (he won tourney MVP) and the truth is that no one knowledgable would argue that. They only show highlights of MJ's shot but like I said no one would dispute that Worthy was better so I don't really get your argument here. Maybe only new age fans might think that but that is only because ESPN shows highlights and not the full game. 

2) MJ actually added flair to that dunk like Vince did with his dunks. To my memory Dr.J never dunked from the FT line like MJ did. Arms back, legs bended, tongue out...thing of beauty. Dr.J was just a normal FT line dunk. I say he modified the doc's dunk not stole it. Same as Vince modified MJ, Nique and Rider's dunks. MJ was the first I have ever seen rock the ball like the way he did when he dunked. That was MJ's REAL patent much like the FT line was Dr.J's.

3) I AGREE WITH THIS. But then great teams win championships not one player. I would never take anything away from Bird or Magic. A lot of people actually do give credit to Pippen, Grant, Paxson, Rodman, Kukoc, and most of all Phil though. Some don't and this argument definitely applies to them.

4) The Bulls lost 2 games not 1. Anyways that year the East was weak...Atlanta was the best team in their division. Cleveland had to endure injuries to Brad D and they were never the same after he retired. New York was the powerhouse and Orlando was just beginning to be born. Boston and Detroit were no longer powerhouses. However it was still incredible what the Bulls did...Pippen SHOULD have been 2nd in MVP voting behind Hakeem. Phil SHOULD have been coach of the year not Wilkens. Terrific effort but they still has all their players except for Jordan. I guess how you should really meaure Jordan's effectiveness is how they did in the postseason. They did not even advance to the ECF but of course many thought that they wouldn't even advance to the playoffs. That Bulls team definitely played better than expected but once Horace left it became quite dreadful the next season until Jordan came back and they went 13-4.

5) People forget that MJ actually DID NOT want to play for the Olympic team but he got chosen anyway and enjoyed his experience. As for the boycott it was obviously due to the bitter feelings between MJ and Isiah because of their history. Sad and immature on both of their parts.

6) Oh I definitely AGREE with this. Shadow fouls no question. If Shaq was Jordan he go to the line 50 times a game. But MJ often made no calls look like fouls...he certainly got benefit of a doubt but MJ was a smart player and he knew this. 

7) Nique should have won but they played in Chicago. Blame the judges not MJ.

8) I AGREE!!!!!!   Magic and showtime was the greatest!!! Oh MJ you robbed us.:grinning: 

9) There was no question that MJ was going to assume their throne. But I remember hearing MJ say that he really regreted that Magic retired. It was because he felt like he wasn't allowed to compete against (what he considered) the best especially when he was entering into his prime. Would have been validation...kind of like Lennox and Tyson. But MJ did manage to beat Magic in the 90-91 Finals.

10) I agree but to Jordan's credit he has done a lot just not enough by a lot of people's standards. A lot of people forget that one reason why quite a number of inner city kids and population hated Jordan was because he seemed to neglect them. But Jordan actually does charity but like I said not enough by a lot of peoples' standards. 

Anyways, it was a priviledge to watch a legend grow infront of your eyes with Jordan. He is and was a special talent. Is he the greatest ever...that is debatable. But he was the greatest I ever watched in the game of basketball. Then again I never watched Wilt or Oscar. MJ was great nonetheless...I don't think you should hate him but then again everybody has their personal opinion. I might not agree with it but I will definitely respect it.:grinning:


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> originally posted by *IV*
> Can the 2001 Lakers get some love?


They were definitely an amazing team, but I don't know that they had the overall firepower of the 85-86 Celts, 86-87 Lakers or 95-96 Bulls. I would put them just below those teams, on the same tier as the 71-72 Lakers (69 wins, Wilt and Jerry), the 66-67 Sixers (Wilt again, incredibly strong supporting cast) and the 71-72 Bucks (Oscar and Lew Alcindor).


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

BUMP

This was posted a long, long time ago.

Can i hear some imput from the new batch of posters? (by the way, where is Bball Doctor???)


----------



## Adol (Nov 25, 2004)

Well, at least you fessed up to the fact that you hate MJ. It got to be very annoying how you went around talking trash about him all the time for no apparent reason.


----------



## cambyblockingyou (Nov 26, 2005)

i sympathize with a lot of that list. jordan did always seem like, at best, not a great person.


----------



## GTA Addict (Jun 27, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> *1- People believe he was the best player in the North Carolina NCAA Championship, * when it was WORTHY the Final Four MOP (scoring 28 points): people only remember he made the wiining shot, but who was the player who stopped the adversary's following possetion? You guessed it- WORTHY);


Well, he may not have been the best player in that game, but he was a 2-time College Player of the Year and hit the gamewinning shot, so he's going to get credit for them winning the championship. It's like Magic winning the Finals MVP only because Kareem was injured for Game 6 and Magic had a magical game, but Kareem had clearly been the MVP up to that point.



> *2- He stole the dunk:* people believe that the dunk-from-the-FT-line was his, but he was only copycating Dr. J, who first popularized it;


Yeah, but Dr. J simply sprinted down the court and dunked it. MJ always dribbled the length of the court and did a midair double clutch with one hand while kicking his legs out. I'd say he put his own touch on it.



> *3- His six rings:* people seem to believe Ol' baldy himself won 6 titles for the Bulls, when facts are that he never played (in championship years) with less than on HOF and another All-Star, who were vital to those rings;


Anyone who thinks any player won a ring by himself doesn't know basketball. Nearly every championship team has a few HOF or All-Stars.



> *4- His first retirement:* people forget that the following year after Ol' baldy's first retirement the Bulls lost only ONE game more in the regular season than the previous year.


2 games, but they didn't go as far in the playoffs. The Bulls regularly dispatched the Knicks while MJ was there, but they couldn't get over the hump without him.



> *5- Dream Team I* His airness boycott of Isiah Thomas presence in the Dream Team I (A.K.A. the best basketball team ever).


This was just one incident in the ongoing grudge between Isiah and MJ during that time. Isiah froze MJ in his first all-star game, the Pistons invented the Jordan Rules against him, MJ badmouthed the Pistons' dirty play, Isiah and the Pistons disrespected MJ and the Bulls after the Pistons were swept, MJ boycotted Isiah for the Dream Team.



> *6- Referees bias:* Never before and never after was a player so loved by the refs: Ol' Baldy could travel, carry the ball, shove people to get free without being called for a foul (remember the Jordan Rules)?


Superstar treatment has always been an issue in the NBA. And what's your point about the Jordan Rules. The Jordan Rules were a dirty style of play designed by the Pistons to slow down and beat down MJ.



> *7- NBA's prodigal son:* He was so loved by the NBA suits that even Dominique Wilkins got robbed of a rightfull Slam Dunk Championship;


Huh, Nique beat MJ in 85, MJ beat Nique in 88. I watched the 88 contest last night actually and it was definitely close, but Nique wasn't robbed.



> *8- Magic Johnson:* the fact that ol' baldy and the Bulls stopped Magic from a sixth ring in his (tragically) last year as a player;


 :biggrin: It must hurt to hear Magic praising MJ as he does. "The thing about it is I can't feel bad because they're just giving us a nice BUTT KICKIN'"



> *9- The post-Magic/Bird era:* the fact that he became the damned best player in the world.


And the best of all time :banana: 



> *10- That greedy, baldy man!* the fact that he became a multi-millionaire by sponsoring every company that would give a buck his way (even underwear!); the fact that he gave nothing back to his community (the community which made him stinky rich).


Sure he's given back, but not proportionately the same amounts as others.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

GTA Addict said:


> Well, he may not have been the best player in that game, but he was a 2-time College Player of the Year and hit the gamewinning shot, so he's going to get credit for them winning the championship. It's like Magic winning the Finals MVP only because Kareem was injured for Game 6 and Magic had a magical game, but Kareem had clearly been the MVP up to that point.


Oh, GTA... Why do you do this? Should Paxson deserve to get credit for that Bulls Championship? Are you equaling a 16pt-game winning basket to what Magic did (a PG playing Center and dropping 40-15-whatever)?



> Yeah, but Dr. J simply sprinted down the court and dunked it. MJ always dribbled the length of the court and did a midair double clutch with one hand while kicking his legs out. I'd say he put his own touch on it.


How many footage do you see of Doc (or Barry, or Pippen) in the FT line?



> Anyone who thinks any player won a ring by himself doesn't know basketball. Nearly every championship team has a few HOF or All-Stars.


True.



> 2 games, but they didn't go as far in the playoffs. The Bulls regularly dispatched the Knicks while MJ was there, but they couldn't get over the hump without him.


Remember Charles "choker" Smith?



> This was just one incident in the ongoing grudge between Isiah and MJ during that time. Isiah froze MJ in his first all-star game, the Pistons invented the Jordan Rules against him, MJ badmouthed the Pistons' dirty play, Isiah and the Pistons disrespected MJ and the Bulls after the Pistons were swept, MJ boycotted Isiah for the Dream Team.


Well, if it makes it OK... :angel:



> Superstar treatment has always been an issue in the NBA. And what's your point about the Jordan Rules. The Jordan Rules were a dirty style of play designed by the Pistons to slow down and beat down MJ.


I guess you don't know about the full extention of "Jordan rules"...



> Huh, Nique beat MJ in 85, MJ beat Nique in 88. I watched the 88 contest last night actually and it was definitely close, but Nique wasn't robbed.


I must have a different footage, then...



> :biggrin: It must hurt to hear Magic praising MJ as he does. "The thing about it is I can't feel bad because they're just giving us a nice BUTT KICKIN'"


Magic was always an humble SOB...


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

^^^^ Sorry about the post above. Don't mean to argue anymore. Just to hear some imput...


----------



## GTA Addict (Jun 27, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Oh, GTA... Why do you do this? Should Paxson deserve to get credit for that Bulls Championship? Are you equaling a 16pt-game winning basket to what Magic did (a PG playing Center and dropping 40-15-whatever)?


I said MJ is obviously going to get credit, not ALL the credit. I'm not equaling the two, I'm saying credit often goes to players who did something memorable and crucial, but may not have been the biggest reason for winning. I've seen many people say that the Spurs don't win the 05 Finals if Horry doesn't "win" Game 5 for them. Horry "won" Game 4 for the Lakers against the Kings in '02. etc. etc.



> How many footage do you see of Doc (or Barry, or Pippen) in the FT line?


I've seen the dunk contest in which Doc sprints down the court without dribbling and simply dunks it one-handed.



> Remember Charles "choker" Smith?


I remember him getting blocked a zillion times by Pippen, MJ, and Grant!



> Well, if it makes it OK... :angel:


Nope, both were at fault for the grudge, but you're only hating on MJ



> I guess you don't know about the full extention of "Jordan rules"...


Enlighten me, oh wise elder!


----------



## Drk Element (Nov 10, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> *1- People believe he was the best player in the North Carolina NCAA Championship, * when it was WORTHY the Final Four MOP (scoring 28 points): people only remember he made the wiining shot, but who was the player who stopped the adversary's following possetion? You guessed it- WORTHY);
> 
> *2- He stole the dunk:* people believe that the dunk-from-the-FT-line was his, but he was only copycating Dr. J, who first popularized it;
> 
> ...


no offense, but i don't find those good reasons.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Drk Element said:


> no offense, but i don't find those good reasons.


Hey, don't forget it's the "10 reasons..."...

I have at least 10 more...


----------



## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Great post Paulo, agree with most of your points. I don't hate him, but it annoys me when fans outside of Houston act like taking Hakeem over Jordan was the wrong thing to do.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> I don't hate him, but it annoys me when fans outside of Houston act like taking Hakeem over Jordan was the wrong thing to do.


Hmmm... didn't Hakeem make the NBA Finals in his sophomore season?


----------



## Drk Element (Nov 10, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Hey, don't forget it's the "10 reasons..."...
> 
> I have at least 10 more...


:laugh:


----------



## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Most of those reasons are fair enough. He's not saying, for example, that _everyone_ thinks prime Jordan = automatic titles. But a lot of people do think that. A lot of people do think that Jordan invented the free throw line dunk, and a lot of people don't believe that he was favored by the refs. And it's understandable for someone to hate Jordan for denying his favorite player a ring in his last season.


----------



## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Hmmm... didn't Hakeem make the NBA Finals in his sophomore season?


 Yeah, but he wasn't a marketing powerhouse and couldn't dunk from the FT line. And Hakeem wasn't a God.


----------



## sic_D (May 5, 2005)

numb555 said:


> I don't think anyone is over-rating MJ, his accomplishments speaks for itself. But, also MJ is prolly a few in history if not the one that lived up to media hype, fan expectations etc. etc.
> 
> When i watch MJ, he just gives me the feeling of invincibility. He was the true superman, last few seconds of the game, the other team knows he gonna get it, the other coaches know he gonna get it, the players knows he gonna get it, the fans knows he gonna get it..he knows he gona get it. What does he do, Nothing but Net!
> 
> ...


You forgot about "Leadership". One of Jordans greatest traits.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

1. I think the only reason why some people think he was the best player in the '82 championship is because Jordan is the bigger name particularly now after what he has done afterwards. I doubt anybody thought he was the best player then. Also, Jordan was a freshman and the fact he even got playing time from Dean Smith says something. 

2. Jordan put more flair to it. Same thing as how Richardson and Vince put more flair in the East Bay Funk dunk. Dr.J is a legend but Jordan elevated dunking to another level along with Wilkins. Same thing as Vince has elevated it to another level now.

3. I hate it when people give MJ all the credit for those championships. Championships are won by great teams. The 90s Bulls were great teams but MJ was the catalyst of their success not only by his ability but his determination. That trickles down.

4. Actually they won two less but the biggest difference is in the playoffs. The year before they won the championship. The year after they lost in the 2nd round.

5. The MJ and Isaiah beef was as stupid as Shaq and Kobe. Difference is there actually was a rivalry between the Pistons and the Bulls.

6. The Jordan rules. If Shaq got the same bias he would probably average 50 in the modern NBA.

7. It was in Chicago what do you expect? Still a great exhibition.

8. Changing of the throne.

9. MJ was very good during the Magic/Bird era. The difference were their teams. But in the end MJ stands with 6 rings. Magic has 5. Bird has 3.

10. The guy is a solid business man. At least MJ isn't one of those sports figures who blew away all their money from hookers and drugs. He's a role model even after NBA like Dave Bing and MJ actually donates money and his time to a lot of causes. But you're right he has been criticized for not giving back enough particularly to the black community. 

Good points. I got some different opinions but I respect yours.



PauloCatarino said:


> *1- People believe he was the best player in the North Carolina NCAA Championship, * when it was WORTHY the Final Four MOP (scoring 28 points): people only remember he made the wiining shot, but who was the player who stopped the adversary's following possetion? You guessed it- WORTHY);
> 
> *2- He stole the dunk:* people believe that the dunk-from-the-FT-line was his, but he was only copycating Dr. J, who first popularized it;
> 
> ...


----------



## Vinsane (Feb 27, 2005)

Jordan deserved everything he got in the league


----------



## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

MJ had media exposure than any other NBA superstars; and to be honest, MJ was on different planet than any player in the league in his prime.


----------



## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

i could make a 10 reasons why i hate kobe bryant and make up lousy reasons yet still would be believable for me to be a kobe hater than your pathetic reasonings for hating jordan


----------



## tdk1984 (May 9, 2005)

I detest MJ as well. He was a friggin' ballhog.


----------



## GTA Addict (Jun 27, 2005)

tdk1984 said:


> I detest MJ as well. He was a friggin' ballhog.


You must REALLY hate Kobe and AI then.


----------



## tdk1984 (May 9, 2005)

GTA Addict said:


> You must REALLY hate Kobe and AI then.


Yeah.


----------



## SirCharles34 (Nov 16, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> *5- Dream Team I* His airness boycott of Isiah Thomas presence in the Dream Team I (A.K.A. the best basketball team ever).
> 
> I know what you think: or i'm crazy or dum.
> Don't post that. It would be rude.
> Can you argue otherwise?


I didn't know MJ boycotted Isiah's presence on the Dream Team. 

Why did he do that?


----------



## SirCharles34 (Nov 16, 2004)

Lynx said:


> MJ had media exposure than any other NBA superstars; and to be honest, MJ was on different planet than any player in the league in his prime.


You ain't kiddin. 

I was in London last summer and went into a sports store(Lillywhites); nothing but soccer jerseys and the only basketball jerseys that was out in the open was Michael Jordan's. The man isn't even playing ball anymore and still his jerseys are in demand.


----------



## magohaydz (Dec 21, 2005)

tdk1984 said:


> I detest MJ as well. He was a friggin' ballhog.


Oh yeah, he NEVER passed the ball :raised_ey 

Career scoring MJ vs everyones beloved KB

MJ
ppg - 30.1
apg - 5.3
rpg - 6.2

Kobe
ppg - 23.2
apg - 4.4
rpg - 5.1

even if you take the BEST years of each player you end up with this...

MJ (88/89)
ppg - 32.5
apg - 8.0
rpg - 8.0

Kobe (02/03)
ppg - 30.0
apg - 5.9
rpg - 6.9

I think the stats say it all


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

magohaydz said:


> Oh yeah, he NEVER passed the ball :raised_ey
> 
> Career scoring MJ vs everyones beloved KB
> 
> ...


Is Kobe a ball-hog, then?


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

alleninsf said:


> I didn't know MJ boycotted Isiah's presence on the Dream Team.
> 
> Why did he do that?


Well, story goes that Jordan felt he was boycoted in the first ASG he played in (not passing the ball to him, in sum), and that the boycott was lead by Isiah.
Then all the Bulls-Pistons rivalry thingy, most notably the Pistons starters clearing the court episode.
All to say that Jordan didn't like the Pistons.

So, it's said that Jordan didn't want Isiah on the Dream Team. If i remeber correctly, even Pippen threatned not to go if Isiah got selected, or something like that. So he didn't get picked.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jan. 16 1993
*Michael Jordan: 47minutes, 27-49, 1 assist, 64 points.*

Jan. 22, 2006
*Kobe Bryant: 41minutes, 28-46, 2 assists, 81 points.*

I wonder how much criticism Jordan would garner from posters if he did that today. :raised_ey


----------



## Sixerfanforlife (Jun 23, 2005)

Kobe took and made the majority of his shots, Jordan took, and made the majority of it's shots. These are not players you bulid NBA titles around, proven by the 76ers so both IMHO are over-rated. But as far as the stats go, MJ is the most dominate Forward ever to play the game. Kobe will be 2nd to iverson for the most dominate active shooting guard to play the game.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

The "dominant" version of MJ was a guard not a forward and how can you say MJ is not a player you build around when he led the Bulls to SIX titles?!!! 



Sixerfanforlife said:


> Kobe took and made the majority of his shots, Jordan took, and made the majority of it's shots. These are not players you bulid NBA titles around, proven by the 76ers so both IMHO are over-rated. But as far as the stats go, MJ is the most dominate Forward ever to play the game. Kobe will be 2nd to iverson for the most dominate active shooting guard to play the game.


----------



## GTA Addict (Jun 27, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Jan. 16 1993
> *Michael Jordan: 47minutes, 27-49, 1 assist, 64 points.*
> 
> Jan. 22, 2006
> ...


What kind of comparison is this. 99.9% of the world is praising Kobe for this game. Jordan had a good game. Kobe had the game of his life.


----------

