# Dwight works with Dream; may have 3 actual post moves



## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

You better be watching Kendrick Perkins


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

If that dude has three money post moves, and the magic make a concerted effort to get him the ball in good positioning - it'll be real serious.

I'd like to see him get 17 shots a game.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

Seriously, how hard does the guy have tow work to get a move. What the hell has he been doing?


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

Hakeem is my all time favorite Center.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Hopefully he does. He's the only player in the East that can even somewhat jeprodize the Heat's trip to the finals.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

I'm so glad I'm a Heat fan living in downtown Orlando, a couple of blocks from the Amway Center, this is going to be awesome.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

This conversation is played out. It's not even about a post move it's about the Magic realizing he's a franchise defensive player and getting him a damn point guard who can help him. If you work with him and get him in the right spots he's going to get you 20 on average, probably 30 depending on the matchup.


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

I feel smarter already.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Dre™;6387160 said:


> This conversation is played out. It's not even about a post move it's about the Magic realizing he's a franchise defensive player and getting him a damn point guard who can help him. If you work with him and get him in the right spots he's going to get you 20 on average, probably 30 depending on the matchup.


No, it is about his confidence in his post moves. The offense isn't designed for the PG to dominate the ball, it's predicated on ball movement. If anything, we need a wing player who can get to the rim and draw enough attention to open things up for Dwight. A Deron Williams would be nice, but PG really isn't a problem right now. And people talk about Kendrick Perkins like he is a problem. Tired of hearing that guys name too much.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Noone's saying you need a PG to "dominate the ball". There's a thin line between dominating the ball and being able to get (by far) your best asset good looks at scoring opportunities. I guess maybe they should just trade for Gerald Wallace though :sarcasm:


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Wow ur all over the place. So what is your actual point again? You dont want Jameer to run the offense, u want him to force it into Dwight?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I don't want Jameer there at all. A real point guard doesn't have to "force" anything to get Dwight Howard his 23 a night.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

'Forcing', meaning not running the offense? I dont understand how u want Jameer to create for him all these looks by himself, when the offense is designed to take what is given. If a D is sagging in on Dwight and/or anticipating that pass(which 90+% of the teams are typically doing), then it is Meers job to either hit that open shot or find the open guy, who might have a better angle into Dwight. It's not about stat chasing. Does he miss 1 or 2 looks into Dwight occasionally? sure, but u're acting like he is the problem. 

I fail to see how the PG position is the problem on this team. Dwight is not a guy u can hit on the pop for an open jump shot. It's either on a p&r or feeding him on the block, so teams can anticipate those passes. Meer is a smart player, i dont think u quite understand what ur talking about here.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Dwight also makes free throws in practice so its hard to be impressed by this kind of stuff. Hopefully for Dwight that the Magic will let him experiment more during the regular season otherwise they're building another reason for them not getting out of the East. Dwight needs to use his moves during the game and should even consider putting some of his dunking opportunities aside if he really wants to get better. I remember watching his Duncan move last season by trying to get a backboard jumpshot...pretty painful to see but could help him but he also needs to work on his dribbling, confidence, IQ, and overall footwork as well to really make defenders pay.

As for Jameer, while he's an above average guard, his passing, IQ and court vision leaves a lot to be desired. He's basically a combo guard, more of an undersized SG masquerading as a PG like Tyreke Evans except he's not undersized. Can you imagine if Dwight had even an ancient Jason Kidd? The amount of alley oops would take up all the footage on ESPN's highlight reels. I don't think Howard will ever turn out to be an Amar'e on offense so a great PG would help the Magic a ton.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Even at Hakeem's age, his post moves still look more fluid than Dwight's.

2:51 is really impressive for a 47-year-old.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> Noone's saying you need a PG to "dominate the ball". There's a thin line between dominating the ball and being able to get (by far) your best asset good looks at scoring opportunities. I guess maybe they should just trade for Gerald Wallace though :sarcasm:


Every team should be looking to swing a deal for Gerald "Better Than Pippen" Wallace.


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Even at Hakeem's age, his post moves still look more fluid than Dwight's.
> 
> 2:51 is really impressive for a 47-year-old.


Looking at that video, if I were an NBA GM, I'd be hard-pressed if I was asked choose between Hakeem and Shaq as a backup/emergency center on my team. I'd probably pick Hakeem.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Blu said:


> 'Forcing', meaning not running the offense? I dont understand how u want Jameer to create for him all these looks by himself, when the offense is designed to take what is given. If a D is sagging in on Dwight and/or anticipating that pass(which 90+% of the teams are typically doing), then it is Meers job to either hit that open shot or find the open guy, who might have a better angle into Dwight. It's not about stat chasing. Does he miss 1 or 2 looks into Dwight occasionally? sure, but u're acting like he is the problem.
> 
> I fail to see how the PG position is the problem on this team. Dwight is not a guy u can hit on the pop for an open jump shot. It's either on a p&r or feeding him on the block, so teams can anticipate those passes. Meer is a smart player, i dont think u quite understand what ur talking about here.


There are plenty of times every game when Dwight got good position and the possession ended with someone jacking up a shot. They don't have a floor leader. Nelson is the best they have for now, but he's not a good starter. 

And no, I'm not going to get into a 12 post flame war telling a Magic fan Jameer Nelson isn't a good PG, because I won't win. But he's not. How good of a point guard do you need to be to sling it around the perimeter for an open jumper or toss it up for Dwight for an oop? Nelson doesn't create anything for anyone.

You're being obnoxiously hyperbolic, as usual, about what I was saying. I'm not saying things need to be totally upheaved and they need to give him the ball every possession or some ****, my point is if people want Dwight Howard to maximize his value offensively it starts with helping him get good looks, because it's obvious after so many years he's really not that great with his back to the basket. 

What people fail to realize though is interior play doesn't live or die with having a back to the basket game. There are ways good point guards find their big men points when they're limited, and Nelson can't do that.

The Magic don't have a point guard, and until they get one people will still come down on Dwight for not having a post game, which is true, but they're not seeing the forest for the trees in that evaluation.

EDIT: And what Nelson does now is dominate the ball relative to his ability. I just find it funny you think me saying _passing_ to Dwight more is _dominating_ the ball. How is that even practical


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Dwight doesn't have a good back to the basket game? :50ha:


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## Wilmatic2 (Oct 30, 2005)

See See.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

He wont pull off most of what they showed in that video...he cant.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

carrrnuttt said:


> Looking at that video, if I were an NBA GM, I'd be hard-pressed if I was asked choose between Hakeem and Shaq as a backup/emergency center on my team. I'd probably pick Hakeem.


Its almost like 99% of you forget that Hakeem was pretty much useless in his last season in the NBA with the Raptors. Shaq is still a serviceable big man.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Blu said:


> Dwight doesn't have a good back to the basket game? :50ha:


Nope, it's why the Celtics strategy of "play the perimeter guys honest and make Dwight beat us" worked in the playoffs.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

HB said:


> Its almost like 99% of you forget that Hakeem was pretty much useless in his last season in the NBA with the Raptors. Shaq is still a serviceable big man.


I would absolutely take 2010 Olajuwon over, meh, let's say 8-10 current NBA players.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

As long as he is buried on the bench sure


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Blu said:


> Dwight doesn't have a good back to the basket game? :50ha:


Yup, Dre's also spot on.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

The hook shot is considered a back to the basket move ya know.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Ya know that doesn't mean he has a good back to the basket game. Dwight knows it too, he trained with three or four different big men in the offseason and it was one of the biggest reasons why his squad aren't wearing rings.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

You guys make such a big deal about Dwight's offense, but his defense is light year's better than everyone in the league. He'll win a chip eventually, and it just might be this year.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

carrrnuttt said:


> Looking at that video, if I were an NBA GM, I'd be hard-pressed if I was asked choose between Hakeem and Shaq as a backup/emergency center on my team. I'd probably pick Hakeem.


No, Hakeem can't run and jump anymore, nor could he ever have the stamina required.

But I agree he still has the smoothness factor. Howard is very mechanical compared to the Dream.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Hopefully Hakeem got through the Howard that he should NEVER dribble more than once. If that's all he's learned from Hakeem, he's learned a lot. That alone will make Dwight look less clumsy on offense. He should be getting 20FGA a night though. His positioning is terrible. I mean these are fundamental post up moves and he's setting up way outside of the low post. Who has been coaching Dwight Howard?


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Hyperion said:


> Hopefully Hakeem got through the Howard that he should NEVER dribble more than once. If that's all he's learned from Hakeem, he's learned a lot. That alone will make Dwight look less clumsy on offense. He should be getting 20FGA a night though. His positioning is terrible. I mean these are fundamental post up moves and he's setting up way outside of the low post. Who has been coaching Dwight Howard?


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

HB said:


> You guys make such a big deal about Dwight's offense, but his defense is light year's better than everyone in the league. He'll win a chip eventually, and it just might be this year.


There are three scenarios under which Orlando even makes it out of the East, and I'm not completely sold on one of the three. 

A) Orlando acquires an elite scorer, along the lines of Melo or a completely rejuvenated Arenas, to take some pressure off of Dwight on offense and allowing him to focus on what he does best, a la KG on the '08 Celtics 

B) Hakeem's teaching is WAY more extensive than most feel is possible and Dwight becomes a mix of Seattle-era Shawn Kemp and Prime Duncan, making him the best player in the league by far

C) Miami draws Boston in the second round and eliminates them, followed by Dwight throwing up an absolute monster series against an overmatched Miami frontcourt. This is the one I have trouble believing leads to another Magic Finals appearance, because even if Dwight dominates to the point that we never look at Bosh the same I don't know if it will be enough to make up for the advantage that Lebron/Wade will have over whoever Orlando trots out on the wings.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Yawn you all are making a big deal of this. Its not as dire as you make it out to be. Orlando has the best depth in the league. They dont need this elite scorer you all keep mentioning, Vince is good enough. They've got so many weapons that having one guy drop 30 night in night out is quite unecessary. They are going to frustrate so many teams just by virtue of how many guys they can throw at you and who can score efficiently. Moving Shard to the 3 spot really helps too, because they can go big and exploit Shard's quickness and length at the 3. I guarantee you 25 games into the season, people will be talking about how dangerous the Magic look. They are clearly the best team in the East right now.

*Link*



> Believe: The Magic will be the best team in the league ... at least in the regular season.
> 
> Orlando has been incredibly dominant in the preseason, winning its seven games by an average of 25 points. Using a standard statistical formula for expected wins, Orlando's preseason point differential translates to 81-1 record over an 82-game season. So which game will they lose?
> 
> ...


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Bogg said:


> Nope, it's why the Celtics strategy of "play the perimeter guys honest and make Dwight beat us" worked in the playoffs.


Oh, you mean like Dwight hangin 31, 28, 28, & 21 on KPerk in the ECF's? Amazing defense! If that is being 'shut down', Dwight gets shut down every damn game of the season, im tired of hear about KPerk. The idea that the most efficient player in the league he sucks at all facets of offense, is amazing to me. 

His post game, you thought that was his only weapon? Nope, he doesn't even have that anymore. Cant shoot, has no post game, has an inept PG that cant feed him bunny's... So how the hell is he scoring 18+ppg again while regularly drawing doubles'? How does become that most efficient player numerous times? 

The fact that people say he has no post game is a joke. Could it be better? Yes. But he still has one of the better post repertoires in the league. Give him some credit. It is his jumper and ft's that is holding him back from being a 22-24+ scorer, if he got that it would open up a plethora of counter-moves. But it is a process, and he has time. To say his post game is bad tho, that is a slap in the face to the league. Ask yourself why nearly every coach in the league doubles him, because ur basically saying they are idiots. I've followed dude closely the last 4 yrs, and y'all are quite simply wrong in this. Fall back when you dont know what you speak of.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

HB said:


> Yawn you all are making a big deal of this. Its not as dire as you make it out to be. By far Orlando has the best depth in the league. They dont need this elite scorer you all keep mentioning, Vince is good enough. They've got so many weapons, they are going to frustrate so many teams. Moving Shard to the 3 spot really helps too, because they can go big and exploit Shard's quickness and length at the 3. I guarantee you 25 games into the season, people will be talking about how dangerous the Magic look. They are clearly the best team in the East right now.
> 
> *Link*


The problem will not be Dwight, it will be who shows up to help. Dwight is proven to be good. A superstar. Defensively, he will always give us a chance, sprinkled in with offensive dominance when he's feeling it... But he needs help. It needs to be all 4 guys now. Meer, Shard, Vince, and Dwight, they all need to show up. It cant just be 2 of the 4 like last yr, all need to be in prime form come the playoffs(mentally & physically), and we will have a chance. If only 2 or 3 show up, we're going home just like last yr.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I don't think the Magic are title contenders anymore. The Lakers made them look silly two years ago and the Celtics last year, and they haven't done anything to improve. They'll score, and Dwight Howard will block shots into the 10th row, but if they couldn't win with just one excellent team in the league they will not win with two. 

I think they're comfortable where they are though.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

I dont think we will win either, but it is fair to say we are a top 4 team(could be considered a contender depending on the definition i guess). And anything can happen if everyone shows up(ala 09), but we are not the best team imo.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

I love how people go on and on about his lack of touches completely ignoring the fact that he leads the league in FT attempts. In all honestly, if he were just a decent free throw shooter his lack of post moves wouldn't be discussed as much as it is. He'd already be a 22ppg player if he shot just 73% from the line.

Fact is, its impossible for a bigman who plays exclusively 8ft and in to get 20 shots a night. Defensives wont allow it...help defense will shut all that down especially late in games. For a big man to be a high end scorer (24ppg and up) he absolutely has to be able to step away from the basket. 

Bosh, Amare, Dirk are the best scoring bigs in the league and they're all face-up players.

All I want from him is to keep his turnovers down and improve his free throw shooting.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Spaceman Spiff said:


>


Well, that explains a lot. Dwight's defense is excellent but his offense isn't. That is what Patrick Ewing was as a player.


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

Orlando will have a chance to compete for the championship if SVG starts Lewis at SF permanently. Yes, Orlando can beat teams like Charlotte which has Diaw as their PF and even Atlanta with Josh Smith. But they will never beat L.A. or Boston, when Rashard has to guard Gasol or KG and series against those 2 teams in the last 2 playoffs proved that...


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

tone wone said:


> I love how people go on and on about his lack of touches completely ignoring the fact that he leads the league in FT attempts. In all honestly, if he were just a decent free throw shooter his lack of post moves wouldn't be discussed as much as it is. He'd already be a 22ppg player if he shot just 73% from the line.
> 
> Fact is, its impossible for a bigman who plays exclusively 8ft and in to get 20 shots a night. Defensives wont allow it...help defense will shut all that down especially late in games. For a big man to be a high end scorer (24ppg and up) he absolutely has to be able to step away from the basket.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Teams can't really stop him straight up, it's typically either a hack-a-howard or a relentless double. In order for him to overcome that and get more clean opportunities, he would need to extend his game. 

It's not about Jameer getting him 1 or 2 extra bunny's. That would certainly be nice as Meer is not perfect, but that is not the problem with the team. The problem is with the way teams can play orlando, and gamble (w/ decent odds) that wont be able to punish them that given night. LA just doubled him relentlessly n hacked near rim, while Boston played him straight up w/ occasional dbl. The difference was, against Boston we got WHIPPEN on both ends in SG/SF position, while Dwight got his. In the LA series, they took away Dwight and we didn't have enough supporting help step up to overcome it. 

We cannot have that kind of discrepancy at any position if we expect to win the ship. Everyone has to hold there own at their position. It obviously just got alot harder to do w/ the big 3 in Miami. Will take a total team effort to beat that team 4 out of 7.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> This conversation is played out. It's not even about a post move it's about the Magic realizing he's a franchise defensive player and getting him a damn point guard who can help him. If you work with him and get him in the right spots he's going to get you 20 on average, probably 30 depending on the matchup.


This is what I've been saying. Dwight has proven in the past that he can score if you get him the ball in the right spots at the right time. He's not Shaq so you can't expect him to get the ball and dunk on a double team.

The Magic had too many guys pounding the ball around the perimeter taking bad shots instead of getting Howard the ball when he was open. He can have all the post moves he wants but it doesn't matter if the ball doesn't get to him.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

A 60+ win team isnt a contender anymore? Okie dokie

And once again tone wone shines some light on this thread. This get Dwight touches nonsense has gotta stop. You see some clips with Hakeem in a practice setting and you suddenly think he can pull that off in a real game...come on now! 

PS why's this guy Blu sporting a VC sig lol


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Yet Dwight was putting in work Vs Boston when he got his touches.

I'm not mad that Vince choked and Goomba was jacking up bad shots because otherwise I'd be sporting a VC wallpaper on twitter.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

see you in April, hopefully Evan Turner learns how to play PF along the way lol


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

The Magic aren't winning the title. It's not even worth debating.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

HB said:


> PS why's this guy Blu sporting a VC sig lol


a new season... i'm optimistic, lol. it's not a subliminal diss, dont worry lol.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Blu said:


> Oh, you mean like Dwight hangin 31, 28, 28, & 21 on KPerk in the ECF's? Amazing defense! If that is being 'shut down', Dwight gets shut down every damn game of the season, im tired of hear about KPerk.


That's actually exactly what I mean. The whole approach that the Celtics took was that Dwight was going to get his either way, but if you focused on shutting down his supporting cast he wouldn't be able to spring for 40 or more and carry the offense. And he didn't. I don't believe I ever said that he was shut down by anyone, just that the Celtics single-covered him with role players for an entire series and it was a winning strategy. 

Look, Dwight's an excellent player, one of the top ten guys in the league, but he either needs to significantly expand his offensive game or Orlando needs to bring in and elite scorer or two for them to win a title. I don't even know how this is debatable anymore. Vince was supposed to be that guy and he wasn't last year and there's little to no indication that he will be at any point in the future. It isn't a knock on Dwight, he's the best center in the league, but he needs help on offense. 

I look at it very much like Kevin Garnett's situation. He was best suited as a second or third option, especially late in games, while being freed up to play defense, rebound, and generally create havoc while also chipping in 18-20 points per game. His one healthy season with Pierce and Ray Allen he won a title - sometimes things are that simple.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

^No, you were agreeing with the idea that Dwight has no back to the basket game, and now ur switching it. Your saying the same things I was saying now. The post u were agreeing with, that guy has been saying Dwight has a poor post game. He was also saying that Dwight doesn't need to expand his game to score more, what he needs is to be spoonfeed more. That is what he thinks Orlando needs to get over the hump, a PG who can just spoonfeed Dwight.

Me, I agree with what you just said. Yes, a PG like Deron or CP3 would be nice, but that's not happening right now and that's not even the biggest flaw. Imo, we need a 2nd guy who can take pressure off of Dwight. A wing who can finish at the rim, hit open shots, shows up to big games, capable to take over a game. A guy who would take attention off of Dwight, so he has more room to work. We'd either need that, or yes, Dwight WILL need to expand his game if he wanted to score more. You're saying the same thing I said. 

In sum, we agree Dwight is a very good player. We can bully alot of teams with him, but were not gonna win 4 outta 7 games against a real team, unless (1)we get _that guy_ to show up on the wing or (2) Dwight extended his game a little bit to allow himself more room to score more. The guy you agree with was trying to say the problem is the PG and Dwight's back-to-basket game. Two of the strongest points of the team if you asked me. But who am i, i only watched probly 85% of this teams games the last 3 yrs lol.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Blu said:


> ^No, you were agreeing with the idea that Dwight has no back to the basket game, and now ur switching it. Your saying the same things I was saying now. The post u were agreeing with, that guy has been saying Dwight has a poor post game. He was also saying that Dwight doesn't need to expand his game to score more, what he needs is to be spoonfeed more. That is what he thinks Orlando needs to get over the hump, a PG who can just spoonfeed Dwight.


I didn't agree with or endorse anyone else, just stated that no, Dwight doesn't have a good back to the basket game. I never backpedaled on that statement, just pointed out that Dwight's athletic enough to make up for it in other facets of his game that he's still one of the top players in the league. So, to summarize:

A) Dwight's back to the basket game is indeed poor. He's got a running hook shot he employs with a degree of success, but that's about it in terms of go-to post moves. 

B) Dwight's still an excellent player that you can build a contender around despite that flaw in his game. 

C) If the Magic intend to challenge for a championship in the short-term they need to put an elite scorer next to Dwight, or he needs to significantly expand his offensive repertoire to carry this particular version of the Magic.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

This is a topic I think about all the time. But I don't think Dwight will ever get 17 shots a game because he just will never be a good enough ball handler, even with better post moves. If he constantly gets good positioning he is more likely to average 17 FTA per game than FGs.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Are we going to pretend Dwight Howard is not destroying his competition?

22.5 13 rebs per, 3.3 blocks per game in just under 30 minutes.

Orlando is 3-1, and would most likely be 4-1 had they played the Knicks.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Dwight and the Magic have bee playing well but there's imo no reason for them not to dominate against the Nets, Wolves, and Wizards. Hell the latter teams even had key injuries, no Gilbert Arenas or Michael Beasley but they'd probably be dominated anyway.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

Still the numbers he is putting up are cray-zay


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

once again Magic will play well during the season, they will beat teams like Charlotte, Nets, Wolves, Knicks and etc. But in playoffs vs teams like Boston, Miami and L.A. they will struggle. They have not changed anything yet. Still too many 3 pointers, stupid small ball strategy, terrible rotations and coaching...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Howard's looks great this year. Past that who knows. Magic need to do whatever it takes to get CP3 though.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Tragedy said:


> Are we going to pretend Dwight Howard is not destroying his competition?
> 
> .


no but let's not pretend he's a young Shaq and start calling him Superman either


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

When next do the Magic play a good team?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Doesn't matter, you know it's only gonna be a lucky occurrence if he replicates that production.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

e-monk said:


> no but let's not *pretend he's a young Shaq* and start calling him Superman either


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Tragedy said:


> Are we going to pretend Dwight Howard is not destroying his competition?
> 
> 22.5 13 rebs per, 3.3 blocks per game in just under 30 minutes.
> 
> Orlando is 3-1, and would most likely be 4-1 had they played the Knicks.


Regular season production hasn't been Dwight's problem the last few years, nobody was questioning Orlando's ability to blow out mediocre teams in this thread. Anyway, Dwight's stat line right now isn't far off from what he's done the previous three or so seasons and it's WAY too early in the season to draw any definitive conclusions about his offseason progress. 

Are we going to pretend the Timberwolves front line has anything to do with what the Celtics and Lakers are going to throw at him in May/June?


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Bogg said:


> Regular season production hasn't been Dwight's problem the last few years, nobody was questioning Orlando's ability to blow out mediocre teams in this thread. Anyway, Dwight's stat line right now isn't far off from what he's done the previous three or so seasons and it's WAY too early in the season to draw any definitive conclusions about his offseason progress.
> 
> Are we going to pretend the Timberwolves front line has anything to do with what the Celtics and Lakers are going to throw at him in May/June?


Let's not pretend people haven't been talking down dwight's production in the regular season also.

He's showing an array of new moves, taking jumpers, and overall just murdering his competition. Of course in the playoffs we'll see what's up, but for now he's showing a lot.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Bogg said:


> Regular season production hasn't been Dwight's problem the last few years, nobody was questioning Orlando's ability to blow out mediocre teams in this thread. Anyway, Dwight's stat line right now isn't far off from what he's done the previous three or so seasons and it's WAY too early in the season to draw any definitive conclusions about his offseason progress.
> 
> Are we going to pretend the Timberwolves front line has anything to do with what the Celtics and Lakers are going to throw at him in May/June?


Its the manner he is getting the points. From the statements you have made, pretty sure you havent watched him this year.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Dwight will need to double those stats if he wants the Magic to contend for a title this year.

I thought I was rough on Rashard Lewis earlier about his 14 ppg season last year, turns out he might even be worse this year.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Where his offense is at now, he should put up 25-30ppg in the playoffs. He can.


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

D needs to bring in Rick Barry over the summer to work on his free throws.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Dwight is legit. Orlando is not. They need to get better at their wing positions, because the three teams better than them have LeBron and Wade, Pierce and Allen, Kobe and Artest. They really need to go after Carmelo.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Heh @ Pierce and Allen, lol if the Magic had shown up for the first two games of that series, the series would be different. Don't act like the Celtics are somehow superior to the Magic. The Magic CAN beat the Celtics. They never played Kobe and Artest, we don't know how that would go (in a series that is)


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

The Magic did show up for the first two games. The Celtics were just better.

I'm surprised you won't admit that the Celts were a bad matchup for Orlando.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol you again? Logic doesn't apply to you when it involves the Magic, guess you know better than the beat writers and fans who watched the team all season. They toyed with their first two opponents, thought showing up against the Celtics (who they beat 3 out of 4 times in the regular season I think) would get it done and were already out of it by the third game, although we saw what a focused Magic team can do when they blew out the Celts. Didn't Matt Barnes question their effort during that stretch? SVG too I think.

The sad thing about the Magic is that no matter what they do now, it won't matter. They have to prove it in the playoffs. Bass wasn't even getting any burn last year, you think he wouldn't have made a difference against the Celts front line? Come on!


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Why would you not show for the first two games of a conference finals series on your own home court? That kind of mental weakness is probably worse than just getting outplayed. Either way, if the Celtics had shown up in game 4, it would have been a 4-0 sweep. They haven't changed their teams that much since then. Boston is superior to Orlando. 

Regardless, this is deja vu. You wrote off Orlando's matchup problems with Boston all last year. So I guess we're in for another round of that this year.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Why would you not show for the first two games of a conference finals series on your own home court? That kind of mental weakness is probably worse than just getting outplayed. Either way, if the Celtics had shown up in game 4, it would have been a 4-0 sweep. They haven't changed their teams that much since then. Boston is superior to Orlando.
> 
> Regardless, this is deja vu. You wrote off Orlando's matchup problems with Boston all last year. So I guess we're in for another round of that this year.


Au contraire, I am actually worried about their beef up front NOT Pierce and Allen. The Magic would rather face the Heat I am sure.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

HB said:


> Its the manner he is getting the points. From the statements you have made, pretty sure you havent watched him this year.


They haven't played one quality defensive frontcourt. Orlando got blown out by Miami and beat four teams that won't make the playoffs this year. I fully expect Dwight to look wonderful against Nazr Mohammed and Darko, I stand by my statement that it's too early to know if Dwight's developed the type of offensive game it's going to take to carry Orlando to a title. He may have, he may not have, but there's absolutely no way he's proven it yet.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

HB said:


> Lol you again? Logic doesn't apply to you when it involves the Magic, guess you know better than the beat writers and fans who watched the team all season. They toyed with their first two opponents, thought showing up against the Celtics (who they beat 3 out of 4 times in the regular season I think) would get it done and were already out of it by the third game, although we saw what a focused Magic team can do when they blew out the Celts. Didn't Matt Barnes question their effort during that stretch? SVG too I think.
> 
> The sad thing about the Magic is that no matter what they do now, it won't matter. They have to prove it in the playoffs. Bass wasn't even getting any burn last year, you think he wouldn't have made a difference against the Celts front line? Come on!


My logic doesn't work?

I said they wouldn't win more games without Hedo. They didn't.

I said they weren't going to win the championship. They didn't.

I said they wouldn't beat the Celtics. They didn't.

You clowned me when I said Jameer wasn't going to get into the lane vs the Celtics the way he did vs Charlotte.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

To put it simply, Orlando needs to be able to win more than one position. Dwight will win center. After that, Garnett, Pierce, Allen and Rondo run circles around Orlando's 1-4. That's their problem. Boston knows this, that's why they stay home on Dwight. Orlando is only really a problem if Dwight can consistently put up 40 points or so on single coverage, but he can't. He isn't that type of player, and the Celtics play outstanding post defense. 

Orlando needs to add somebody who can win another position for them.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Yeah but you said those things out of ignorance. Lol not like you were some super basketball analyst. You have said it numerous times that you dislike Vince, Jameer and the Magic. You werent saying it because you broke down their opponents, you said it because you dislike the team. Lol I cant take you seriously. Luckily for you your predictions came true.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Yep, and for some reason Otis thought they had that guy in Vince. Now that's just hilarious.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> To put it simply, Orlando needs to be able to win more than one position. Dwight will win center. After that, Garnett, Pierce, Allen and Rondo run circles around Orlando's 1-4. That's their problem. Boston knows this, that's why they stay home on Dwight. Orlando is only really a problem if Dwight can consistently put up 40 points or so on single coverage, but he can't. He isn't that type of player, and the Celtics play outstanding post defense.
> 
> Orlando needs to add somebody who can win another position for them.


If Dwight scores 40, they HAVE to double him. Orlando's perimeter game is predicated on that. They don't have good slashers, if they don't get the double they are in trouble. That's why Dwight's new offense is super important.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

HB said:


> Yeah but you said those things out of ignorance. Lol not like you were some super basketball analyst. You have said it numerous times that you dislike Vince, Jameer and the Magic. You werent saying it because you broke down their opponents, you said it because you dislike the team. Lol I cant take you seriously. Luckily for you your predictions came true.


Luckily? Anyone who wasn't a Magic homer saw that the Celtics were the nightmare matchup for them. You're still in denial a year later.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Coatesvillain said:


> Luckily? Anyone who wasn't a Magic homer saw that the Celtics were the nightmare matchup for them. You're still in denial a year later.


They beat the Celts 3 times out of 4 during the regular season. Yeah definitely a nightmare.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> Where his offense is at now, he should put up 25-30ppg in the playoffs. He can.


Dwight did up his ppg by over 3 last year against the Celtics. Just enough to cover the -3 ppg that Vince averaged.

Hopefully Dwight can up it a bit more this year because Vince looks pretty out of it thus far.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

You can tell the dudes who have an agenda, when they come on here and talk like they have a clue.

The same Vince that is 'out of' it according to you is averaging 14ppg, 4rpg, 3apg on 51FG%, 42.93pt%....his team is 4-1. Maybe once he gets into it, he'll shoot 60% from the floor and over 50% from 3 right? Or maybe he needs to shoot more on the team that has so much offensive talent? If he scores 20ppg it will show how into it he is right?

As for Dwight, I might be sounding like a broken record, but Dwight's offense from last year IS NOT the same as it is right now. Thought by reading this thread this would have sunk in by now. It will be harder for guys like Perkins to play him one on one because his game is more consistent now.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> You can tell the dudes who have an agenda, when they come on here and talk like they have a clue.
> 
> The same Vince that is 'out of' it according to you is averaging 14ppg, 4rpg, 3apg on 51FG%, 42.93pt%....his team is 4-1. Maybe once he gets into it, he'll shoot 60% from the floor and over 50% from 3 right? Or maybe he needs to shoot more on the team that has so much offensive talent? If he scores 20ppg it will show how into it he is right?


14 ppg isn't "out of it" to you? And the guy just hurt his hip again last night, I expect another month of "he's playing badly because he's hurt" coming from his diehard fans.

Of the 4 teams that Orlando did beat 2 of them are 1-5 as of today, Washington is 1-4 and you got NJ at 2-4.

In the game that actually mattered they got decimated. In that game, Rashard Lewis (20mil), Vince (17mil), Redick (7.5mil), Gortat(6mil), Duhon(3mil) combined for a grand total of 13 points. That's over 50 mil of salary if you don't like to count.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Guy every single pundit that has covered the Magic this preseason to this point has talked about how dedicated he is this season. I dont even know why I argue this stuff with people who don't watch games. Vince doesn't need to put up more points because the team has a lot of offensive talent. Maybe you haven't noticed but Dwight's been getting the ball a whole lot more, that's how they want it. 

They did lose to the Heat badly, but that was almost expected. The Heat just got embarrassed, they were playing at home, their first game at home for that matter, the Magic played the day before....dude it was a perfect storm for the Heat.

I'll say this though, it doesn't help the Magic when they beat up on easy teams, they really grow complacent. 

But hey you can keep up with the Vince is 'out of it' schtick. At least those of us who watch the games know those who dont.


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

People, why don't you understand that the main Magic's problem is their game strategy and coaching. They are shooting almost 30 three pointers a game, when they make them they win...but you just can't rely on your 3 point shooting all the time. Some games you just miss everything and you have to find other ways to win. Orlando Magic have no other ways thanks to SVG. Even last year vs Boston, Magic players just could not make some wide open jumpers in the first two crusial games in the series and after they were down 0-2 the series was over. You just can't depend on your luck to win a championship and if you shoot 30 three pointers every game it is all about luck, you can't sustain it during such a long season and then playoffs...


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> Guy every single pundit that has covered the Magic this preseason to this point has talked about how dedicated he is this season. I dont even know why I argue this stuff with people who don't watch games. Vince doesn't need to put up more points because the team has a lot of offensive talent.
> 
> They did lose to the Heat badly, but that was almost expected. The Heat just got embarassed, they were playing at home, their first game at home for that matter, the Magic played the day before....dude it was a perfect storm for the Heat.
> 
> But hey you can keep up with the Vince is 'out of it' schtick. At least those of us who watch the games know those who dont.


lol....offensive talent. So Dwight improves his offense this offseason and all of a sudden Orlando is loaded.

Who exactly is taking the scoring load off Vince again? Is it Shard who's averaging 12 points a game or is it Meer? It can't be Redick because he's rarely on the floor and I doubt it's Q since he's shooting 30%. You must be talking about Pietrus then, I saw Stan Van Gundy shouting at him the other night screaming "YOU ARE SCORING TOO MANY POINTS".

Ah excuse me, you must be talking about Brandon Bass. How silly of me to ignore him and Ryan Anderson who's going to turn the whole "Vince will do more good for Orlando than Hedo" debate around.

Just stop making any more excuses for Vince. Orlando didn't bring him in for him to average 14 points a game. They brought him to be the closer in games but the guy flinches at the slightest pressure. Right now his only value is being the faintest hope that Orlando has for bringing in Melo or CP. When that's out the window he's nothing more than an old vet on his last legs.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

When you start watching games instead of reading box scores, I'll respond to you seriously. 

I'll leave you with this though.

The Magic were loaded last season, just as they are loaded this season. Dwight's offense is important against teams that play him one on one. They'll just keep dumping the ball to him and he will make them pay.

Still laughing at the Vince is out of it statement, this guy hasn't watched a single Magic game this season lol and he uses point per game to argue it. Guy its 5 games into the season and SVG has already clashed with 3 guys because of playing time. They have too many guys that can put the ball into the basket.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> The Magic were loaded last season, just as they are loaded this season. Dwight's offense is important against teams that play him one on one. They'll just keep dumping the ball to him and he will make them pay.


Well, whatever they had last season wasn't close to being enough. What makes you think that it's ok for Vince to take a step back this year?

And you're right, besides the Miami game and the Washington game I haven't watched the other 3 Orlando games. Vince looked brutal against the Heat which in my opinion matters a lot because I can guarantee you that's what will happen in the playoffs if those 2 teams meet.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

And honestly, Vince looked out of it *last year*. I don't see why I'm getting a big reaction now. Did he not get neutered against the Celtics? Somebody seems to have a short memory. I swear I remember the whole forum laughing their ass off at HB's expense when VC put up 2 decent quarters in 6 games.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Nevermind....but I would think you'd understand that VC dominating the ball doesn't bode well for the Magic. Y'all complain about Dwight not getting enough touches, and now that he is, its somehow a bad thing VC is taking less shots?

Chances are they have to play either the Heat or the Celtics to get to the finals. They'd rather play the Heat because of their interior. Either way they'll have to prove themselves come that time.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Lol, HB now u see how I feel talking about the Magic on here. Ppl dont watch but like to tell U how wrong you are about the players. Comedy, lol.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HB said:


> If Dwight scores 40, they HAVE to double him. Orlando's perimeter game is predicated on that. They don't have good slashers, if they don't get the double they are in trouble. That's why Dwight's new offense is super important.


Why would they double him of their offense is predicated on that? Boston set the blueprint for making it tough for Dwight, but not double teaming him. That's how you guard Orlando. Play him straight up as best as you can, but don't double. That opens things up for a bunch of shooters who can't create for themselves without Dwight's help. It's simple. 

Bottom line is, Orlando needs another great player. Dwight is the new LeBron. He can outplay the other team at his position, but if every other position is getting dominated, it makes no difference. They can win a lot of regular season games, but in the playoffs it doesn't translate. Ie Cavs last two years.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Well that worked because he wasn't converting his FTs, but if they do that now, he's going to drop 40 on them. Dont know about the playoffs but as of now, if they don't send any help, he will keep making shots. But I just want to say this, you guys act like the Magic have been swept whenever they get into the playoffs. Sometimes you just need luck to go your way, they COULD HAVE been in the finals against the Lakers if they showed some mental toughness. Another great player would help, but really that's just you guys underrating the Magic as usual.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HB said:


> Yeah but you said those things out of ignorance. Lol not like you were some super basketball analyst. You have said it numerous times that you dislike Vince, Jameer and the Magic. You werent saying it because you broke down their opponents, you said it because you dislike the team. Lol I cant take you seriously. Luckily for you your predictions came true.


I hate the Celtics far more than I hate the Magic, and I was still right. That's because I don't let personal opinions of players/teams affect my basketball opinion. You should do the same. 

It's not "luck" that I'm right, it's the game of basketball. These matchup issues were explained to you ad nauseum last season by everybody that wasn't a Magic homer, and you refused to believe. Then when they were right, it's because they were "lucky". Give it up.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I think the Magic CAN beat the Celts in a playoff series. Why do I have to be a homer to believe that? They LOST the first two games because they refused to show up....its not because of some crazy matchups. Not that it didn't have an effect but those guys simply didn't play the game as intensely as the Celts. That much was clear. The Celtics were the more focused team. Go back and watch those games. Most of the Magic players didn't have the mental toughness the Celtics exhibited and thats what cost them that series. Only one guy showed up for that series.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Vince was missing alot of open shots in the Boston series. We never had a better team than Boston, but we do have enough pieces to make it competitive if everyone shows up. If Magic want to win against a real team, it's not gonna be about Dwight it's gonna be about who shows up with him. It has always been that, and will continue to be that. 

Last year, everyone did not show up, period. We were able to neutralize their PF/C, but 1-3 they beat us handily. Vince couldn't do anything right in that series on either end of the court. We got to be bettr. Yeah they're better on paper, but we're capable of beating them if everyone plays well. It has always been that. Same with Miami, we need 1-5 to show up. Anyone making it about Dwight or any other one guy, hasn't really follwed this team long enough. It needs to be 4-5 guys playing well, or least nuetralizing their position. If not, we're going home empty again.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Dwight is legit. Orlando is not. They need to get better at their wing positions, because the three teams better than them have LeBron and Wade, Pierce and Allen, Kobe and Artest. They really need to go after Carmelo.


Sadly, I agree. The Magic may be winning games right now but their team as currently constructed is not going to cut it against Boston, L.A. and Miami -- and let's be clear, that's all that matters for them. They need to make a move, rumor has it they have made an offer for Anthony. Whatever it takes (outside of Howard obviously), they need to make a move to acquire the player Vince Carter was supposed to be to push them over the edge, whether it be Anthony or another player who may become available closer to the deadline.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

They arent going to get Melo or Paul, that's just me though, who knows if those teams will trade them to the Magic. I do think they can go after a guy like Brand. How they get him is another thing.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I would actually consider shipping Vince to Philly for Elton Brand. Brand looks like he's finally healthy and he's the type of guy Brandon Bass wants to be but will never be. With Brand Orlando can move Shard to the 3 without embarrassing themselves by starting Ryan Anderson and with Vince gone it allows Redick more playing time.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Like I said elsewhere that would be a terrible move for Philly. They aren't in a position where getting cap space alone would help them. They need a player to go back to what they already have long term.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol I knew the philly GM would comment on that.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I actually think Philly needs to do a complete rebuild with Holiday and Turner as their main pieces. It would also be wise to them to unload Brand now because he might not be this movable the next time he gets an injury.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I think Monta Ellis is another guy who could help them out.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> I actually think Philly needs to do a complete rebuild with Holiday and Turner as their main pieces. It would also be wise to them to unload Brand now because he might not be this movable the next time he gets an injury.


I agree that rebuilding around Turner and Holiday is the move, but getting Vince's contract for him isn't a good move. They need something they can add to the team.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

What else are they going to get though? You really need to narrow down the teams that would actually consider getting Brand to see what kind of offers are out there. Outside of Orlando I really don't see any other playoff teams that will have any interest. New York is a big maybe and you're not going to get more than Eddy Curry's expiring out of them either.

I just can't think of a team that would want Brand other than Orlando.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Blu said:


>


I'm not the one calling myself superman - Shaq at age 21 was averaging 29 ppg on 60% shooting

you can keep posting all the cute videos you want but a jump hook is not a post up game and facts are facts - Howard is the best center in the league but he isnt what you seem to think he is


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

seifer0406 said:


> What else are they going to get though? You really need to narrow down the teams that would actually consider getting Brand to see what kind of offers are out there. Outside of Orlando I really don't see any other playoff teams that will have any interest. New York is a big maybe and you're not going to get more than Eddy Curry's expiring out of them either.
> 
> I just can't think of a team that would want Brand other than Orlando.


Orlando wouldn't want Brand... I think we would want Arenas b4 him.



e-monk said:


> I'm not the one calling myself superman - Shaq at age 21 was averaging 29 ppg on 60% shooting
> 
> you can keep posting all the cute videos you want but a jump hook is not a post up game and facts are facts - Howard is the best center in the league but he isnt what you seem to think he is


Who on here has compared Dwight to a young/prme Shaq, 1st n foremost? You're arguing with yourself. And 2ndly, Dwight never called himself superman because of Shaq, he put the cape on cuz of the Soulja Boy song. The media ran with it after that, and the rest is history. Nobody here is trying to compare dude to prime Shaq, so what r u rambling about? U came in here sour on him. 

He probably has better post moves than you're favorite center rite now, so that's all that matters. The baseline reverse pivot, the running hook, the dropstep, the up n under this yr, it's there. Just because ur sour on him, doesn't mean he doesn't have a back to the besket game. His back2basket game is essentially his only strength offensively, and he's averaging 22ppg. Watch games, and u'll see them. Honestly dont know what team ppl are watchin sometimes... If u critize Dwight, get ur argument together. It's obvious to us who actually watches the team and who doesn't.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Blu said:


> Orlando wouldn't want Brand... I think we would want Arenas b4 him.


Arenas is too much of a headcase and he's not that much more durable than Brand. Also I don't think Orlando wants to commit 4 years to Arenas when theres a chance that Dwight leaves in 2.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

I dont think we would want either of them tbh, but if i had to pick one... then yeah, I think we would _rather_ take the playmaker. This team needs a guy who can take over on the wing.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Blu said:


> Who on here has compared Dwight to a young/prme Shaq, 1st n foremost?
> 
> *what part of 'I'm not the one calling myself Superman' did you miss? who? him who, that's who*
> 
> ...


I love this argument - and not just the schizophrenic 'us' reference - from everything you're saying I have to think that it wouldnt matter whether you watch or not because you clearly dont understand what youre looking at


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

e-monk said:


> what part of 'I'm not the one calling myself Superman' did you miss? who? him who, that's who
> 
> oh, sure the best center in the NBA, playing in Orlando is completely ignorant - what? big dude used to play here? big S tatoo on his arm? what? no, never heard of him - come on, pull the other one


Already explained this to u. Dwight never call'd himself the next Shaq, ur beef is with somebody in the media.



> bad news, not counting Pau (which just wouldnt be fair to Howard) I'd have to say my favorite center at the moment is Andrew Bynum so you're mistaken - dont get me wrong, Bynum is not the superior player but his post game is far more sophisticated and well developed than Howard's


Better shooting isn't equivalent to a better back2basket game. If you're talking about Pau, his game isn't any more effective than Dwights(statistically, it's less effective). His post game largley consists of running hooks n reverse pivots as well, 2 things that have been a staple of Dwight's game for @ least 3yrs now(but apparently dont count?).. I'd put my money on Dwight being able to outperform either of them 1on1 on the block, with his moves. Bynum has a nice game, Pau has a nice game, true. But why do you chastize Dwights game, then point to them? What do you want to see Dwight add to his back2basket game?



> thank you this made me chuckle - running hook? love it - of course that's the only one you mention that's a bread & butter move and isnt just a juke and well his running hook so called endangers all those who have to sit behind the stanchion


These stale jokes dont prove anything. It only proves that you're 2 yrs behind on dudes game. You're the guy who watches 1 game and thinks he's an expert.



> try this: establishes position, knows how to seal, develops solid footwork, has a soft touch with either hand, understands how to use the back board


Yeah, he does all that.



> I'm not sour on him, already said he's the best center in the league - you're the one who doesnt seem to know what a back to the basket game looks like


Ok, Tell me what u would like 2 see Dwight add to his back 2 basket game?


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

Looking back, that '09 Final was a bit of curse for this team. I think it gave Van Gundy and Orlando fans in general way too much confidence in their offensive system. The style they play offensively is so damn strange. 

Because, they originally played this "Shard at PF with a million pick n rolls" style because they lacked any really scorers on the perimeter and they had no other big men to play next to Howard....it was an offense based off of what they "didn't have" personnel wise. Then Howard and Nelson had to go and get better. Combine their improvement with an upgrade in depth and Orlando becomes a title contender while playing a style that got them mocked a year earlier. 

BUT, what if they dont make it to the Finals in '09? What happens to their offense after the Carter trade then? Do people go on and on about how he cant replace that bum Turkoglu? Do they still start/majority of minutes Lewis at PF? Do they still shoot 30 3s a night?...

They've upgraded their personnel across the board from when they started playing this style back in '07. Both Lewis and Carter are strong post and catch n shoot players....where was that in the offense last season? I could've sworn when they traded for Vince it was to add a dimension to their team but instead he was just plugged into Hedo's roll.

I reckon coming off that Finals run, they woulda had 'Melo running high pick n rolls.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I think at this point the Magic are quite content winning 60 a year and maybe getting to the Finals. I don't think they'd look at this as a cursed period whatsoever.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

tone wone said:


> Looking back, that '09 Final was a bit of curse for this team. I think it gave Van Gundy and Orlando fans in general way too much confidence in their offensive system. The style they play offensively is so damn strange.


It wouldn't be a curse. It would just take away the only reasoning that anyone has to justify Rashard Lewis's contract. I don't care about any argument regarding Dwight's game whether it be offense or defense, the fact is he's a guy that you can build a championship team with, that much is agreed upon by most people. No, I'm not talking about carrying a team to a title, but with the correct mix of supporting players it's achievable. I would say he's easier to build around than a guy like Dirk/Melo/Wade or even a guy like Durant. He could've been Orlando's Tim Duncan if they can only find his Ginobili and Tony Parker.

Like I said a million times already, Orlando's problems starts and ends with Rashard Lewis's contract. You can put a spin on all their problems and somehow it can be traced back to that contract. Why? Because to fix a problem you need changes and in order to make a change you need flexibility. With Rashard's contract you loses a lot of that. You just can't allocate that much resource on a role player and still expect to improve year in and year out.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

It also doesn't help that Rashard hasn't been the same since the league caught him juicing, that contract was bad enough as it was before that.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I think Monta Ellis is another guy who could help them out.


Ellis is a guy I've thought about a lot. In the right system with the right guys around him and the right coaching, I think he could transform his game and be exactly what the Magic need. Danny Granger is another guy who I think could become available and could be a difference maker.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Watching tonight's game, heck from preseason to this point, it is pretty clear that Rashard Lewis is stealing money from the Magic.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

should move shard to the 6 since moving to the 3 apparently isn't helping.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

:hano:


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

The Magic situation is a little tricky: they are right at the cusp of being a championship caliber team, but it's unclear how they could take that next step.

I thought it was a terrible move getting rid of Hedo. There is absolutely no reason to get rid of a 6'10" guy with a great wing span and excellent range, who along with Pietrus and Rashard, could effectively spread the defense to give Dwight better looks. 

Now, you replaced him with a shorter, older player who does not offer the same type of chemistry as Hedo who is a great complementary player, who also lugs around a huge salary. 

The Magic are one of the NBA's finest organizations, so it was sad to see them make such a major misstep. 

They'll be back though; I'm convinced they'll spend their money wisely once VC's contract is up.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

HB said:


> Watching tonight's game, heck from preseason to this point, it is pretty clear that Rashard Lewis is stealing money from the Magic.


No, he isn't dogging it. They legitimately signed one of the dumbest contracts in sports history. He isn't stealing anything. They're just giving him a sultan's pay for a pauper's performance (I made that up and it is mine!)

Everyone knew that going into that contract.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Not dogging it, not just doing much production wise. You could get the same impact with Anderson or Bass.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Orlando would do better with Matt Barnes instead of Rashard Lewis. I guess when Vazquez finally comes over then Lewis can comfortably play the 3. The puzzle will be complete and a dynasty will be built.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol this guy man.....Q.Rich is a better fit than Barnes.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> Lol this guy man.....Q.Rich is a better fit than Barnes.


yeah, it's not like you would want someone who can actually shoot to play the role of a shooter.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

That's actually not why I'd want him over Barnes. He's a very good defender, but he also rebounds the ball better than Lewis and Barnes. Better post up player too.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

well, it doesn't matter what he's good at. He's not going to see a lot of playing time if he continues shooting 30%.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Lewis' just in a slump. Relax. Barnes choked just bad as anyone last yr... If he was still on the team u would diss him too lol.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Blu said:


> Lewis' just in a slump. Relax. Barnes choked just bad as anyone last yr... If he was still on the team u would diss him too lol.


It doesn't matter. At his best he's only a 20/6 player on middling FG%. That doesn't really speak too highly of the Magic front office for signing him to a $118 million offer. It makes the JJ deal look reasonable, if not a bargain.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

HB said:


> If Dwight scores 40, they HAVE to double him. Orlando's perimeter game is predicated on that. They don't have good slashers, if they don't get the double they are in trouble. That's why Dwight's new offense is super important.


No, they won't. 

The Magic have no one who can create their own offense. You let Dwight get his, but stay close to the shooters. That is the blueprint to beating Orlando.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol Vince can't create his offense? Okay. His points must have come from catch and shoot situations strictly. Meer and Vince can create their own shots and for others too, now if this is a good enough elite teams is as good a question as any. So far though its worked against the Hawks and Bobcats, two very good defensive teams.



> well, it doesn't matter what he's good at. He's not going to see a lot of playing time if he continues shooting 30%.


As for you, until you start watching games I don't know if I should respond to you anymore about the magic. Put it this way, Qrich's points are a bonus, its the defensive side of the ball that he is needed.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> As for you, until you start watching games I don't know if I should respond to you anymore about the magic. Put it this way, Qrich's points are a bonus, its the defensive side of the ball that he is needed.


I'm sure Orlando wants nothing more than for Qrich to shoot 30%.

And by the way, I did watch the Hawks game yesterday but I didn't see much of Q because the guy was benched. Sorry for thinking that has anything to do with him chucking it up the night before.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

You didnt see Q? Wait you didnt see the sequence in the 4th were he was hounding JJ and the commentators talked about how he is a tenacious defender? He got minutes last night. Redick is the backup 2, Q and Pietrus have to battle for the 3 spot, but the problem is Pietrus is quite possibly the worst shot taker on the Magic. At this point SVG is more comoftable playing the guy that takes shots within the offense and plays good defense. Guy's also averaging 5 or so rebounds in limited minutes by the way


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> Lol Vince can't create his offense? Okay. His points must have come from catch and shoot situations strictly. Meer and Vince can create their own shots and for others too, now if this is a good enough elite teams is as good a question as any. So far though its worked against the Hawks and Bobcats, two very good defensive teams.


Vince is capable but he's so passive these days you'd forget it. 

And Nelson is too small to rely on and he's not an excellent finisher at the basket to offest that.

I've said for years the Magic need a wing with a nasty guard who isn't afraid to get to the basket. They should've went after Salmons...they should look at Crawford too but I doubt the Hawks trade him there.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> You didnt see Q? Wait you didnt see the sequence in the 4th were he was hounding JJ and the commentators talked about how he is a tenacious defender? He got minutes last night. Redick is the backup 2, Q and Pietrus have to battle for the 3 spot, but the problem is Pietrus is quite possibly the worst shot taker on the Magic. At this point SVG is more comoftable playing the guy that takes shots within the offense and plays good defense. Guy's also averaging 5 or so rebounds in limited minutes by the way


Let's try this again, let me put it in shiny colors so you can see it.

I didn't see *much* of Q. I am guessing it's because he's shooting a pathetic percentage from the floor and that's why he's not getting more playing time.

I've seen enough of Qrich over the years to know what type of player he is. He's not a very efficient scorer and when he's in shape he's an average defender at best. Orlando is better off with him coming off the bench. Talk about Barnes choking last year, I can't remember QRich ever making a clutch play in the playoffs.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> Let's try this again, let me put it in shiny colors so you can see it.
> 
> I didn't see *much* of Q. I am guessing it's because he's shooting a pathetic percentage from the floor and that's why he's not getting more playing time.
> 
> I've seen enough of Qrich over the years to know what type of player he is. He's not a very efficient scorer and when he's in shape he's an average defender at best. Orlando is better off with him coming off the bench. Talk about Barnes choking last year, I can't remember QRich ever making a clutch play in the playoffs.


He played on the Clippers. No one leaves the Clippers or Blazers without suffering a major injury.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

My goodness even when he watches games, he isnt watching lol.

Redick is shooting a paltry 28% from the floor, or he was going into last night's game. Has that stopped SVG from playing him? BTW Q is a much better defender than you gave him credit for. Lol at average defender at best.

Why do you keep giving this opinions of a team you clearly dont watch? From VC is out of it, to Qrich being an average defender.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> My goodness even when he watches games, he isnt watching lol.
> 
> Redick is shooting a paltry 28% from the floor, or he was going into last night's game. Has that stopped SVG from playing him? BTW Q is a much better defender than you gave him credit for. Lol at average defender at best.
> 
> Why do you keep giving this opinions of a team you clearly dont watch? From VC is out of it, to Qrich being an average defender.


Yeah, because SVG has kept Redick as his starter. Oh wait, he wasn't a starter to begin with. Am I missing something here? Didn't we just had a thread a couple days ago about why Redick isn't playing more? 

Do you actually think if Q was shooting a great percentage SVG would still move him to the bench? I don't really see what's so difficult to follow here. They started the season with Q at the 3, Lewis at the 4, clearly things aren't going the way SVG would like and that's why he's shaking things up. Part of it is because Rashard isn't playing well, but Q hasn't done anything to help his cause as a starter.

And I really don't know why you keep accusing people for not watching games when arguing about someone's shooting percentage. Let's say I didn't watch a second of Orlando this year, how would that change my view regarding Q's shooting. Am I suppose to see Q as a better shooter by watching him go out and shoot 30% a night? What hidden truth am I suppose to uncover about Q's shooting by watching him miss?

And Q is an average defender. Opposing SFs averaged a 16 per last year, which is quite average. Even Hedo Turkoglu had a 14.7 Per against last year. So if Hedo is average, Q isn't that far off. He certainly doesn't do enough defensively to offset his atrocious shooting.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Q to the bench had more to do with Anderson/Bass playing well, than him strugglin. JJ, MP, and Q have been about the same imo. Each specialize in little different things, but none have been consistent


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^He just doesn't get it. 

SVG is moving people in and out of the lineup mainly because he's trying to placate egos. The guy has to juggle those lineups so that folks dont start complaining. But how would someone who doesn't follow the team know this?

Like I said earlier its 6 games into the season and two guys have already complained about not getting enough minutes.

*Linkage*


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jwill needs to complain next... hes better than Duhon


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

well, if he continues to shoot 30% from the floor, he's not going to see much playing time. You can argue all you want about why he's on the bench but the bottom line is he's on the bench now.

And I don't even know why I'm in this vortex discussing why it would make sense to bench a role player who's shooting 28%. Isn't that common sense? Do you really want to argue that had Q Rich been shooting well, he would still lose playing time because SVG doesn't like to stick with whats working?


My original point was Orlando could pretty much replace whatever Rashard Lewis does with a guy like Matt Barnes. Say what you want about Q Rich because frankly you're not making much sense.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

http://www.nba.com/video/games/magic/2010/11/08/0021000096_atl_orl_recap.nba/index.html

@ 1:22. Did you see that dreamshake? 

ITS OVER.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

simply_amazing said:


> The Magic situation is a little tricky: they are right at the cusp of being a championship caliber team, but it's unclear how they could take that next step.
> 
> I thought it was a terrible move getting rid of Hedo. There is absolutely no reason to get rid of a 6'10" guy with a great wing span and excellent range, who along with Pietrus and Rashard, could effectively spread the defense to give Dwight better looks.
> 
> ...


Not even close to true. The Magic are a better team with Vince than they were with Hedo.

Hedo Turkoglu wasn't even good in his final season with the Magic. It was no surprise that he struggled last year and is struggling this year as well. In 07-08, he was the Most Improved Player and had a fantastic season, but in 08-09 he was pretty lousy for the entire regular season, was terrible in the opening round of the playoffs against Philly, and was terrible against the Lakers in the finals. He was fantastic against the Cavs and the Celtics in the playoffs and that is seemingly all people remember. For the entire year, he played well in two series. The Magic had three All-Stars in '09 and Turkoglu wasn't one of them.

Against certain teams (like the Celtics), the Magic would be better with Turkoglu than Carter (but also remember that the Celtics didn't have Kevin Garnett in that series in '09), but against the majority of the NBA they are better with Carter.

Of course it made sense to get rid of him. He was a free agent who was going to get more money and years than he deserved and they replaced him with a better player with a shorter contract. No brainer decision.

Just because the Magic didn't get back to the finals last year doesn't mean they weren't a better team.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I think the Magic miss his play-making ability - it's the one thing they dont get as much from Carter - and he was clutch in the 08-09 closing several games during their run to the finals


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Duck34234 said:


> http://www.nba.com/video/games/magic/2010/11/08/0021000096_atl_orl_recap.nba/index.html
> 
> @ 1:22. Did you see that dreamshake?
> 
> ITS OVER.


you were joking right? I can't believe I fell for it.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

:2ti:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> well, if he continues to shoot 30% from the floor, he's not going to see much playing time. You can argue all you want about why he's on the bench but the bottom line is he's on the bench now.
> 
> And I don't even know why I'm in this vortex discussing why it would make sense to bench a role player who's shooting 28%. Isn't that common sense? Do you really want to argue that had Q Rich been shooting well, he would still lose playing time because SVG doesn't like to stick with whats working?
> 
> ...


If I dont respond you will start thinking you are actually right.

Last game QRich played *18:58* game, I guess that 40% (yes its actually 40% now) must not have been an issue with SVG giving him minutes..

When he's on the bench its BECAUSE the team is loaded with players at the forward position not because of your FG% issue. He's actually shooting better from the field than Pietrus and JJ.

Guy Michael Pietrus has already had a couple of DNP's this year, Redick is shooting worse than both Pietrus and Q, yet gets in the game. It has nothing to do with FG%, its because Redick is the back up 2, not much competition there. Geez why do I have to keep explaining this to you. Dont comment on **** you know nothing about.

You have the nerve to tell me I am not making sense about Q, when I have watched every Orlando game this season. Are you ****ting me?

Lol at Barnes being able to replace what Lewis does. Barnes is not a matchup nightmare to ANYONE. He's not that good of a shooter, pesky defender yes, but Lewis makes defenses work just by chasing him around screens. There's also the fact that both he and Q can take people into the post. Barnes post up game is non existent.

Now I assume you will come back with a 'you are not making any sense' type post, or is it a 'you can argue all you want' type post....typically the cop out people use when they have no ****ing clue what they are talking about.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

HB said:


> Dont comment on **** you know nothing about.


You just killed the bbb.net. Congratulations.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> Last game QRich played *18:58* game, I guess that 40% (yes its actually 40% now) must not have been an issue with SVG giving him minutes..


40% of what? FG%? He's shooting 28% from the field for the season and went 5-17 the night before. Don't you think that has anything to do with Orlando not going with him as a starter? Don't you think theres a slight possibility that SVG wouldn't be flipping starting lineups if he was actually playing consistently? You referenced an article earlier, not only did that article not give a definite reason why Orlando is flipping lineups, you seem to not being able to determine for yourself why things are the way they are.



> Guy Michael Pietrus has already had a couple of DNP's this year, Redick is shooting worse than both Pietrus and Q, yet gets in the game. It has nothing to do with FG%, its because Redick is the back up 2, not much competition there. Geez why do I have to keep explaining this to you. Dont comment on **** you know nothing about.


Pietrus has also been recovering from a lingering wrist injury that he's trying to play through. It also doesn't help that he acted inappropriately after not getting a lot of playing time. 



> Lol at Barnes being able to replace what Lewis does. Barnes is not a matchup nightmare to ANYONE. He's not that good of a shooter, pesky defender yes, but Lewis makes defenses work just by chasing him around screens. There's also the fact that both he and Q can take people into the post. Barnes post up game is non existent.


That's some nightmare Lewis is causing. Since I obviously didn't watch any games I'm guessing teams are double teaming him at every opportunity. I mean why else would Lewis be averaging 10 points a game and shooting under 40%.

Talking about the post up game. Lewis can post up but he does it once in a blue moon. The same thing goes with Q. Both of them are more willing to park outside and chuck 3s. What difference does it make if Lewis never uses this supposedly superior post up ability?

The funny thing is I don't know why you're getting so worked up over what I feel about the Magic. I mean it's not like you were right about them last year. I mean you're some expert, you actually thought Vince would take Orlando over the hump. lol, you can scream and kick as much as you like now, but it's still not going to change the fact you're not making any sense.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Pietrus played the very next game after acting 'inappropriately'....logged in a lot of minutes actually. Again guess SVG isn't seeing things the way you are.

And NO how many times do you have to be corrected, SVG is not flipping lineups err I mean taking Q in and out of the starting lineup because of Qrichs' FG%. Why is this so hard for you to understand? 

Ryan Anderson won't get any burn if he isn't in the starting lineup. Bass has moved ahead of him in the rotation.

I can post all the articles in the world telling you otherwise, but you are stuck on this FG% thing. Amazing really.

And then the whole Lewis thing, lol I started laughing. Dude you know there are stats that show that your whole post up once in a blue moon thing is wrong right?

I get worked up when people who dont have a clue act like they do. I don't like having to state things I know I am right about over and over again. Its like telling toddlers to quit acting up but they do the same **** continuously.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> Last game QRich played 18:58 game, I guess that 40% (yes its actually 40% now) must not have been an issue with SVG giving him minutes..


Before we go any further, tell me, what 40% are you talking about. I want to know.



HB said:


> Pietrus played the very next game after acting 'inappropriately'....logged in a lot of minutes actually. Again guess SVG isn't seeing things the way you are.


Again, I guess you can't comprehend the difference between playing and not playing a lot of minutes. Your point was Pietrus hasn't been playing a lot of minutes and I replied because he has an injury and he hasn't gotten along with the coach. He played 17 and 18 minutes after the shouting match, that's not a whole lot of playing time. And to top that off, the only reason why we're even discussing Pietrus is because you said that he's getting DNPs. Now you're arguing that he's actually getting a lot of playing time? You need to keep a track on which side of the argument you're on and stay on it.



> And then the whole Lewis thing, lol I started laughing. Dude you know there are stats that show that your whole post up once in a blue moon thing is wrong right?


Go ahead, show me some stats that proves that Lewis posts up often. And no, don't end up proving that it occurs more than the moon turning blue. I get it.

Just a hint, almost half of Lewis's FG attempts so far have been 3s. I don't even have to go look for stats to know that the guy rarely goes inside. It's common sense, that's what you're lacking. You'll have to be a complete moron to try to prove something like this.



> I get worked up when people who dont have a clue act like they do. I don't like having to state things I know I am right about over and over again. Its like telling toddlers to quit acting up but they do the same **** continuously.


You look like you're getting worked up because you don't like to be reminded how you made a jackass of yourself last year in the playoffs. But that's just me. I can't wait till April when you're telling everyone how Orlando can't beat anyone because they traded Vince. It would be comedic gold.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol dude never mind, I tried to tell you why Q's in and out of the lineup, tried to rationalize it by using Pietrus and Redick. Gave you an article that explained why SVG is juggling his lineups and player's playing time. But it seems they all went over your head. Even if I provided you with the Lewis stats, you'll just sidestep it. You have done so excellently in this whole thread. You keep reverting to what you think is right. 

Like I said from the get go, some of you have agendas. Should never have replied to you. That very line where you said Vince was out of it was good enough.

As for 40%, yesterday when I checked NBA.com had Qrich at that, they must not have updated their page.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

HB said:


> As for 40%, yesterday when I checked NBA.com had Qrich at that, they must not have updated their page.


lol...


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> As for 40%, yesterday when I checked NBA.com had Qrich at that, they must not have updated their page.


lol....so you made all these points about how Q's playtime has nothing to do with his FG percentage without actually knowing his FG percentage. Brilliant! If we have a talking out of one's ass award you'd be crowned a long time ago.

Did your stat regarding how Rashard Lewis posts up also suffer technical difficulties? 



> Like I said from the get go, some of you have agendas. Should never have replied to you. That very line where you said Vince was out of it was good enough.


You should take your own advice. When you don't know what you're talking about, you should keep yourself from replying. 

And Vince *is* out of it. My bet is he won't even be with Orlando by the time playoff comes around. When he's playing for the Clippers or Wizards in March and putting up inflated numbers you can try to convince us how he has revitalized his career. I'll make sure not to comment when that happens.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

nvm


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^Lol you see my problem too

Oh btw 

Courtesy of the dudes from the Orlandopinstripedpost 



> in 2007/08, post-ups (incl. passes) accounted for 11.2% of his offense. 2008/09 - 14.4%. 2009/10 - 14.1%. 2010/11 - 16.2%


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

So under 15% of his offense involves post ups. I rest my case. And you mind posting a link to where you found that stat? 

Not surprising to see the guy who thought Rashard Lewis's contract was a good idea is on your side. Anyone seen idunkonyou lately? Theres another nut job that you can talk to.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Shard is known for his 3pt shooting and catch and shoot ability, but once in a while he'll take players into the post. The guy that gave me that number also called your statement about Barnes replacing Lewis in the offense laughable.

If Shard is getting one or two post ups every game, its not 'once in a blue' moon man.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> Shard is known for his 3pt shooting and catch and shoot ability, but once in a while he'll take players into the post. The guy that gave me that number also called your statement about Barnes replacing Lewis in the offense laughable.
> 
> If Shard is getting one or two post ups every game, its not 'once in a blue' moon man.


lol....yes, Shard going inside once a game really sets him apart from guys like Barnes. What would Orlando do without Shard's daily visit to the paint. Do you also want to mention that Barnes averaged more rebounds than Lewis despite playing less minutes? 

You know what, you're right. He does go inside more than once in a blue moon. You have thwarted my attempt to accuse Rashard Lewis of not being a good player once again.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Wait you are really serious about this Barnes thing? LOL!!!!!!

Defenses don't need to exert much energy in trying to shut down Barnes. All he's good for are perimeter shots and the occasional fast break attempt. 

Like I said real statisticians that follow the team called that idea of yours laughable.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

That Orlando can replace Lewis with Barnes and it wouldn't make much difference? Of course I'm serious about it. It's not just that they get just as good of a shooter, better defense and better rebounding, it's more due to the fact that Lewis just hasn't been that big part of the team. He's a role player who's arguably the 4th option. When you're in that position, you're easily replaceable.

I'm sure defenses are pulling their hair out trying to stop Rashard Lewis. Afterall you don't want him to explode and going off for 15, 18 points and grabbing close to 10 rebounds. That would just be devastating.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Me I'll go with what I've seen, (that is defenses exerting energy chasing Lewis around screens) and the words of people who actually have media credentials to some guy who refuses to budge from his position despite having no clue about the team. The only guy on the Magic that can actually replace Lewis is Anderson, he's the similar player not one dimensional Matt Barnes.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> Me I'll go with what I've seen, (that is defenses exerting energy chasing Lewis around screens) and the words of people who actually have media credentials to some guy who refuses to budge from his position despite having no clue about the team. The only guy on the Magic that can actually replace Lewis is Anderson, he's the similar player not one dimensional Matt Barnes.


lol....because defenses will exert energy trying to stop Ryan Anderson.

And a big lol regarding Lewis not being an one dimensional player. I guess when posting up once a game makes the guy a post up threat in your world, you must think he's a beast rebounding wise since at least he does that *6 times* a game. And btw, my money is he'll average around 4-5 rebounds by the end of the year considering he averaged 4 last year playing mostly pf. If all this talk involving moving Lewis to the 3 permanently I can only imagine how one dimensional he'll truly become. You're going to have the 2nd coming of Matt Bullard by the time his career is over.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

See when you dont watch games, how would you know what Anderson is capable of? This is the dilemma of trying to argue with someone who goes to NBA.com and acts like he has a clue. Anderson spent the off season trying to get quicker and stronger and it shows in his game. He shoots the ball from the perimeter, drives when opportunity presents itself via pump fake and such and will take his guy into the low post just like Shard. He's pretty much Shard lite.

Lol at Shard being a one dimensional player, yes he shoots 3, but he also has a mid range game. Because of his mobility at 6'10 he can take most players guarding him off the dribble (see Ryan Anderson for this too). Underrated post up player too, but hey you are such an expert on the Magic. Who am I to tell you all this when you know so much about the team.

Ironic how I just came upon this quote by Tony Gaskins



> Don't debate what you KNOW with someone who doesn't want to know. That's a waste of both of your time.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

HB said:


> Me I'll go with what I've seen, (that is defenses exerting energy chasing Lewis around screens) and the words of people who actually have media credentials to some guy who refuses to budge from his position despite having no clue about the team. The only guy on the Magic that can actually replace Lewis is Anderson, he's the similar player not one dimensional Matt Barnes.


hm are you saying lewis isn't a one dimensional player?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

How the heck is he a one dimensional player? Shooting the 3 isn't all he does out there. So I guess Ray Allen is a one dimensional player too?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

afobisme said:


> hm are you saying lewis isn't a one dimensional player?


He also posts up once a game and grabs around 5-6 rebounds a night while getting to the line 0.8 times. Not an one dimensional player at all.

I'm not disputing that Ryan Anderson is Rashard Lewis lite. Not often can you make a comparison that's an insult to both players involved.

I should start going to nba.com. Apparently in that universe Q Rich is shooting 40%.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I wish SVG could see this thread lol, he'd just love the thought of Barnes being able to give the team what Lewis does.

Btw is Ray Allen a one dimensional player? Still no response on that.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I mean really, I don't know whats worse, being called a "lite version" of a guy averaging 10/6 or being compared to Ryan Anderson when you are making the 2nd highest salary in the league.

If you're not already a big enough joke I would quote that. But that would be like quoting an outrageous thing said by ballscientist.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> I wish SVG could see this thread lol, he'd just love the thought of Barnes being able to give the team what Lewis does.
> 
> Btw is Ray Allen a one dimensional player? Still no response on that.


At this stage of his career, sure he is. Only difference is he's a lot better in what he does than Rashard Lewis.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Link*



> Anderson is a stretch four, yes, but he is more than just a spot-up jump shooter. As the numbers from Synergy show, Anderson is certainly at his best in the “Spot-Up” category and that’s one of the main reasons why he saw plenty of minutes coming off the bench, given that he could spread the floor in a similar fashion to Lewis. But Anderson can do more than stand on the perimeter and shoot threes.
> 
> In the instances where Anderson posted up, which should have happened more often, he showed excellent skills on the low block. Anderson was also a savvy offensive rebounder, making a living on put-backs. Plus, whenever Anderson decided to attack the basket, he’d utilize a predictable yet effective spin move to slither through a defense and create space for himself to finish at the rim.
> 
> ...


Thank God for stats, seriously some of you would just be talking out your behind and passing it off as facts. Oh that analysis above is pretty much the same for Lewis.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I don't even know what you're trying to say with this article? That Ryan Anderson is more diverse than Rashard Lewis?

Ok, go on?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Similar.....S-I-M-I-L-A-R

Similar player

Makes more sense than Matt Barnes

You get it?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

And just for the record I like Ryan Anderson as a player and I do think he could be a guy like Troy Murphy if he improves his rebounding. This isn't about Ryan Anderson it's about Rashard Lewis. I'm not arguing that you could replace Lewis with Ryan Anderson and there won't be much of a drop off. In fact, going by what this article said you might even be better off because the guy can do more than just spotting up and shooting 3s.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> Similar.....S-I-M-I-L-A-R
> 
> Similar player
> 
> ...





> Anderson is a stretch four, yes, but he is more than just a spot-up jump shooter. As the numbers from Synergy show, Anderson is certainly at his best in the “Spot-Up” category and that’s one of the main reasons why he saw plenty of minutes coming off the bench, given that he could spread the floor in a similar fashion to Lewis. *But Anderson can do more than stand on the perimeter and shoot threes.*


Yeah...he can do more than just stand on the perimeter and shoot 3s. That's what Lewis does.

Here I go again, why am I arguing with HB about reading comprehension.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

> In fact, going by what this article said you might even be better off because the guy can do more than just spotting up and shooting 3s.


And so CAN LEWIS!!!! Lol maybe this will finally settle all this.

*Link*



> Offense
> As he’s almost always been, Lewis was a shooting machine this season. Say what you will about Lewis as a player, but he can flat-out shoot the ball for a man his size. That’s why Lewis is the best stretch four in the NBA, because his ability to shoot such a high volume of threes at such an efficient rate is practically unrivaled.
> 
> But let’s talk about Lewis’ post-up ability.
> ...


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

And I've never said that Lewis can't post up. I said that it doesn't make a difference because he goes there once in a blue moon. If anything this article proves my point. Does it matter if Rashard Lewis can ride an unicycle while juggling 3 oranges? The fact is he doesn't do that on the basketball court just like he doesn't post up. You said it yourself, only 15% of his offense consists of post ups. Why in the world would anyone consider him a post up threat if he doesn't use it. It doesn't make any sense.

You know what, you're right and we're all wrong. Despite only doing one dimensional things Rashard Lewis isn't an one dimensional player. He only plays like one but he's not really one.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

But the article does mention that Shard can't do much of that because Dwight is already taking up space in the lane. When it was written Ryan was coming off the bench. Rarely is he going to be playing on court with Dwight, hence he can do more with the ball instead of waiting on defenses to collapse on Dwight.

FWIW I'd rather Ryan start over Lewis. Age has caught up with Lewis.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> But the article does mention that Shard can't do much of that because Dwight is already taking up space in the lane. When it was written Ryan was coming off the bench. Rarely is he going to be playing on court with Dwight, hence he can do more with the ball instead of waiting on defenses to collapse on Dwight.
> 
> FWIW I'd rather Ryan start over Lewis. Age has caught up with Lewis.


See, if you were to argue that from the beginning it would make a lot more sense than arguing what Lewis actually does on the court.

Because he doesn't post up that's why it wouldn't make any difference if Orlando replaces him with a guy like Matt Barnes. I don't care if it's due to the fact that he's lazy and doesn't want to take the punishment of going inside or if it's due to Dwight clogging up the lane, the fact is he isn't doing what would distinguishing himself from a guy like Matt Barnes. Meanwhile, on the stuff that Lewis does do, Barnes can do it just as well if not better.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

A.) Mental toughness is still an issue....looking down on opponents and relaxing with big leads
B.) They are screwed if teams play zone on them. Clueless on how to attack it properly.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Howard's a work in progress and I doubt he'll ever truly be elite on the offensive end. Dude has some serious flaws in his game and brain - 6 turnovers and 5 personal fouls + technical while not even bringing in a double double against the Jazz or stopping Al Jefferson get his 21 pts on 10-16 shooting? smh


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Simply put. Dwight Howard is check mate for me in the NBA. He's my favorite player currently. His game continues to elevate. He's got a hilarious personality. And he just seems real. Everyone points to his flaws, and detracts from him as a player. Not me, his flaws are minimal, and his mental game is absolutely fine. Are they all areas he can and will improve in. I think so. And that's what I like about him, he's a work in progress. He's a human being with strengths and flaws. I'll take that and a good work ethic over hype and a so called "perfect" player any day. Dwight Howard IMO will win the MVP this season, and lead his team to the ECF's. Magic are short one elite scorer/play maker to win it all. Unless Vince gets Vintage. That would be a rocking good time in already much anticipated and talented season in the NBA.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

HB said:


> A.) Mental toughness is still an issue....looking down on opponents and relaxing with big leads
> B.) They are screwed if teams play zone on them. Clueless on how to attack it properly.


Duhon is clueless on how to attack it. He is too scared too shoot, always fumblin the ball around, and holdin it too long, and/or passing to guys in bad positions. Just bad basketball. Most of the time he comes in, the offense is unproductive. Unlike last yr which was the opposite, JWill & Co would come in and sometimes play better than the starters. The bench is a joke w/ Duhon running the team this yr.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm just saying it's getting past the point where we can act like Dwight isn't already who he's going to be...


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## JT3000 (Nov 3, 2004)

Dre™ said:


> I'm just saying it's getting past the point where we can act like Dwight isn't already who he's going to be...


Of course. Everyone knows that big men usually reach their peak as players before they even turn 25.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

JT3000 said:


> Of course. Everyone knows that big men usually reach their peak as players before they even turn 25.


peaks? no, you're right but the great ones typically have shown their tendencies by that age - Shaq, Kareem and Wilt were logging 29+ per game by their 25th birthdays (hell immediately at age 20-22) 

Hakeem might be a good model for Howard as a late bloomer offensively - of course Howard isnt as smooth or agile as Olajuwon was - maybe David Robinson?


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Dwights gettin old.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

JT3000 said:


> Of course. Everyone knows that big men usually reach their peak as players before they even turn 25.


He may or may not further improve his game as he gets older, but he's plateaued the previous three seasons. Whether or not he develops himself further is yet to be seen, but if a guy's been the same guy for three straight seasons it's not unreasonable for people to begin thinking "Well, maybe his is basically who he is".


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

The guy is already good enough as far as I'm concerned.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

seifer0406 said:


> The guy is already good enough as far as I'm concerned.


Dwight does get unfairly criticized at times, because he's absolutely good enough to build a contender around. Stars that aren't top-flight scorers are just way more polarizing because points are flashy and most fans tend to assume that the guy getting the ball in the last two minutes is the best player on the team, which isn't necessarily true. Orlando's stumblings are more a failure of his teammates than anything else, but fairly or unfairly, when you're the franchise guy everyone looks to you to straighten things out, which is why Lewis and Carter don't get killed nearly as much as Howard.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Just for the record I don't think we'll ever see an array of post moves from Dwight or a consistent midrange jump shot. What I do expect to improve are his fouls as well as other mental parts of the game.

But like Bogg said, there are more people that praise guys like Joakim Noah and Bogut on these boards than Dwight Howard. People like to focus on the guy's weaknesses and not just appreciate what kind of the beast the guy actually is.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

seifer0406 said:


> Just for the record I don't think we'll ever see an array of post moves from Dwight or a consistent midrange jump shot. What I do expect to improve are his fouls as well as other mental parts of the game.
> 
> But like Bogg said, there are more people that praise guys like Joakim Noah and Bogut on these boards than Dwight Howard. People like to focus on the guy's weaknesses and not just appreciate what kind of the beast the guy actually is.


The main issue is that people are harder on players with a shot at true greatness. If Dwight had a post game to match his ability, averaging 30-15 over the course of a season seems reasonable. Noah and Bogut just don't have the raw talent that Dwight does, so they're judged on a different standard. The real fans that care about these things are just frustrated that a guy who could be a generational talent seems content to be a freak athlete. It's why I make arguments that it's disappointing he can't post 40 in the playoffs and people don't wonder aloud why Vince can't average 20 when Ray Allen's single-covering him without help.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Bogg said:


> The main issue is that people are harder on players with a shot at true greatness. If Dwight had a post game to match his ability, averaging 30-15 over the course of a season seems reasonable. Noah and Bogut just don't have the raw talent that Dwight does, so they're judged on a different standard. The real fans that care about these things are just frustrated that a guy who could be a generational talent seems content to be a freak athlete. It's why I make arguments that it's disappointing he can't post 40 in the playoffs and people don't wonder aloud why Vince can't average 20 when Ray Allen's single-covering him without help.


The main reason why everyone wants a lot more out of Dwight is because how weak the rest of his team is. If he had a Kobe or Wade next to him nobody would be asking him to average 30/15. It's not Dwight fault that you can guard him single coverage, let him get his and still beat the Magic. Sure it would be nice if Dwight can go off for 40 instead of 25-30 and carry Magic to a W, but at the same time you have to blame the rest of the team for not being able to win when they have a guy who's a lock to do that much on offense on a nightly basis.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

They can win games, there's just 2 or 3 teams that we cant consistently beat... Teams like Boston, Miami or LA are better on paper... I mean we could probably beat any other team in a series right now w/ just 2 core players showing up, but beating any of those 3 would pretty much take all 5 starters playing in prime form. It can be done, but it's not gonna be likely or easy to happen...


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Bogg said:


> The main issue is that people are harder on players with a shot at true greatness. If Dwight had a post game to match his ability, averaging 30-15 over the course of a season seems reasonable. Noah and Bogut just don't have the raw talent that Dwight does, so they're judged on a different standard. The real fans that care about these things are just frustrated that a guy who could be a generational talent seems content to be a freak athlete. It's why I make arguments that it's disappointing he can't post 40 in the playoffs and people don't wonder aloud why Vince can't average 20 when Ray Allen's single-covering him without help.


Can't rep you, but it's true. Fans recognize greatness and criticize faults in hopes that they become a transcendent player.


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

Dwight Howard is a cry baby, has one of the lowest basketball and overall IQ in the league and his shooting release is just ugly. Can't understand why coaching staff can not explain him how to shoot the free throw properly, why nobody is telling him to put the elbow higher...Yes, and his turnovers number is disastrous...


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

huh....


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

He doesnt like his team losing to the likes of the raptors


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

am I wrong? i am tired of Dwight's crying face! so much of this cheap complaining! you all talking about his mproved offense, but he still makes so many mistakes in positioning himself, so many traveling turnovers, and once again, his shooting is terrible, look at his release on the free throw attempts...


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Men if Dwight is the one you notice playing bad in this game, dont know what to tell you. Lewis has been benched and rightfully so. Duhon cant play for **** and Pietrus continually makes boneheaded decisions with the ball. Dwight has 23pts, 8rebs and 4 blocks, direct your anger elsewhere


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

wow! this thread is about Dwight!!! he already has 4 turnovers!!! and missed 9!!! free throws out of 14!!!


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol we knew that coming into this thread. The guy's a really bad free throw shooter. Wish he'd shoot it at a better percentage though.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Babir said:


> am I wrong? i am tired of Dwight's crying face! so much of this cheap complaining! you all talking about his mproved offense, but he still makes so many mistakes in positioning himself, so many traveling turnovers, and once again, his shooting is terrible, look at his release on the free throw attempts...


I'm definitely not talking about his "improved offense" but he is the best center in the league and I can live with 3.3 TOV and bad free throw shooting - I just dont want to hear about him being the next whatever - maybe he's the next Alonzo Mourning and the pickings are so slim these days that seems like something special


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

his shooting form is just wrong, his touch is not bad, but elbow is not working properly...and he has not improved, he is the same player, just getting more touches, but with getting more touches-more turnovers are coming and ball movement is not the same...


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

3.3 TOV per game so far this season is not bad for usage in the 30s


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

Howard is just the same player he was last year and the year before, that is it...


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Orlando needs to trade for Rip and Tayshaun.


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

good idea...


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

> 3.3 TOV per game so far this season is not bad for usage in the 30s


4 turnovers per game...

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2384


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

> I'm definitely not talking about his "improved offense" but he is the best center in the league


i like this excuse too  so he is better than who? Lopez brothers, injured Yao and Oden, old O'Neal and Big Z? maybe Kaman? Noah?  there are no super star centers left in the league, so being a best center is not that great now


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Babir said:


> 4 turnovers per game...
> 
> http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2384


through last night's game basketball reference has Howard with 27 TOs in 8 games - that's 3.37 if my calculator is programmed correctly and I think it is

but even so 4 TOV is not incredibly high for a guy with usage in the 30s 

and in fact of guys getting decent minutes on that squad Duhon, Nelson, Pietrus and Gortat all turn the ball over at a higher rate per touch


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Babir said:


> i like this excuse too  so he is better than who? Lopez brothers, injured Yao and Oden, old O'Neal and Big Z? maybe Kaman? Noah?  there are no super star centers left in the league, so being a best center is not that great now


I like how you omitted the Alonzo Mourning line from the original post, you know the one that reads:



e-monk; said:


> ...I just dont want to hear about him being the next whatever - maybe he's the next Alonzo Mourning and the pickings are so slim these days that seems like something special


I mean I can see why you would, because you'd look a little dim and simply posting for the sake of having something to do with your fingers


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

The Magic bench besides Bass has been incognito, thats their biggest problem.


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

e-monk, sorry I just did not understand what you wrote about Mourning, my english is not that good  but anyway, what Mourning has to do with Dwight? why to compare them? You and many others are pointing at the fact that Howard is the best center in the league, so what? He can't stay in the games because he is still fouling too much and every game he has at least 2 silly fouls, he still can't make his free throws, still can't position himself, so many times he is trying to take it to the rim and stepping out of bounds. So, in this thread many people are saying he has improved. I don't agree, he is still the same player he was the past 2 seasons...

HB, I agree that Magic bench is not playing well, Lewis is terrible and ect. but we are discussing Howard here


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

e-monk said:


> I like how you omitted the Alonzo Mourning line from the original post, you know the one that reads:
> 
> 
> 
> I mean I can see why you would, because you'd look a little dim and simply posting for the sake of having something to do with your fingers


did you just quote yourself and say he said it?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Hyperion said:


> did you just quote yourself and say he said it?


no, I quoted myself to point out how he missed what i had said and then turned around and said pretty much the exact same thing as if he were arguing with me when essentially he was agreeing with my point


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Babir said:


> e-monk, sorry I just did not understand what you wrote about Mourning, my english is not that good  but anyway, what Mourning has to do with Dwight? why to compare them?


good question 

playing around with the idea in my head - Zo was 6'10", let's say 240 give or take an inch about the same size and wieght as Howard 

both are or were defensive minded paint anchors, Zo in his day was great but essentially a second tier center behind a very impressive 2 or 3 man top tier (let's say neck and neck with Ewing, behind Robinson/Hakeem early, Shaq late?) - Zo had a bit more polish to his offensive game, Howard gets more rebounds but I suspect that has to do with the fact that he's playing with 4 guards and not LJ or PJ Brown - Zo fouled a little more often than Howard does, Dwight turns the ball over slightly more than ZO did 

maybe the comparison is a stretch or maybe the Magic would be a better team if instead of Howard they had the Alonzo Mourning of the 99-00 season manning the paint - food for thought or just bs?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

How can anyone be so critical of Howard's offensive game ? Especially considering the system he's been playing in for his career. Most other teams stars are doubling up Howard on shot attempts. Not to mention the offense is usually ran through, and geared towards them. I just shake my head in disbelief at all these trite criticisms of Howard.


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

23AJ said:


> *How can anyone be so critical of Howard's offensive game ?* Especially considering the system he's been playing in for his career. Most other teams stars are doubling up Howard on shot attempts. Not to mention the offense is usually ran through, and geared towards them. I just shake my head in disbelief at all these trite criticisms of Howard.


Damm, you must still believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, too.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

23AJ said:


> How can anyone be so critical of Howard's offensive game ? Especially considering the system he's been playing in for his career. Most other teams stars are doubling up Howard on shot attempts. Not to mention the offense is usually ran through, and geared towards them. I just shake my head in disbelief at all these trite criticisms of Howard.


post players as primary options have historically managed 20+ attempts on high efficiency in the past and faced just as much if not more attention from the defense(the big names, the group that maybe Dwight would like to belong to) - right now Dwight is just south of 14 attempts per game (compare with Pau at 17+ per game and Pau plays next to Kobe) - blame his coach or teammates if you like - might be some truth in there too

but when I've watched Howard in the last few years what I dont see is consistency in fighting for and holding the deep position, he doesnt seal off the defender that well and when and if he gets the ball he can be overplayed baseline and forced into a ham fisted jump hook that makes spectators sitting behind the backboard flinch

I havent seen too much of him this season, maybe that's changed under Hakeem's tutelage but that's definitely who he has been so far in his career


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

I agree that coaches are guilty, only this season Dwight finaly started to get the ball more often, so maybe he is still not used to it. Previous seasons SVG was asking Dwight only to defend, rebound and run the floor, I won't be surprised if he go back to the same strategy later in the season...

By the way I am absolutely confident that if Dwight had a true PF alongside him, he would be much better player and team had more success...

i hate SVG for his stupid small ball strategy, perimeter oriented offense and primitive pick and rolls...


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