# So much for adjustments



## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

Well, it wasn't very reasonable to expect them to win in NJ without Houston and Thomas. Nice to see KT return somewhat to his form of the last 2 years. That's about the only bright spot. Deke will not change this series or dictate the flow and, worse, Lenny's inexplicable love affair with Shandon continues. WTF? At this point, with nothing to lose, I'd throw DJ in the fire--start him with Penny and Marbury and have DJ and Penny bring it up. A front court of KT and Deke, with Sweets as my 6th man (playing minimum 25-30 minutes). Let's go down that way, experimenting and letting the future play, rather than conventionally surrender. Of course, none of what I want will happen.


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

Anderson took WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too many shots. What is the gameplan for Lenny anyway? Feed the ball to Shandon? What a fool. I tended to be on his side but this game is the last straw. Through him out on the street on his *** with Don Chaney!


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

There are only 2 people in NY who like Shandon...Lenny and Rashidi...

The guy is something like 5 for 25.....and thats the good news...


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

Yeah, why in the world was Anderson still shooting when it was obvious today wasn't his night? (not that it is ever really Anderson's night) 3-15? that is plain ugly. Granted Anderson wasn't the only Knicks shooting poorly, but 20% shooting?


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Shandon was shooting because that's what the Net defense was allowing. Please don't act like Penny or DJ are any better at shooting. Shandon plays because DJ can't play defense to save his life, and Kittles/Kidd would force a turnover from him every time. Shandon is quicker than Penny, which makes him a better matchup against Kittles. The Knicks ARE trying to limit the amount of fastbreak points against them you know. And if I'm not mistaken, didn't Shandon convert some key fastbreak during the only Knick run in the game? Really, I'm sick of hearing about DJ, the most overrated 12th man in basketball, as if he's some sort of answer in this series.


----------



## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

I'm not saying he's the Answer, I'm saying DJ is not Shandon, and that SHandon should be riding serious pine. YOu don't have to have your head in the clouds or be addicted to potential to want DJ to start--you only need to believe that Shandon CANNOT PLAY EFFECTIVELY, ESPECIALLY IN HALF-COURT SETS.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> you only need to believe that Shandon CANNOT PLAY EFFECTIVELY, ESPECIALLY IN HALF-COURT SETS.


And from what we've seen, DJ is EXACTLY THE SAME, except worse defensively.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> And from what we've seen, DJ is EXACTLY THE SAME, except worse defensively.


 From waht you have seen????First of all you want the Knicks to lose...

Secondly,if it was up to you,Eisly would be bringing the ball up court..

Thirdly,If you cant see that Shandon Anderson is killing us,then you are a complete basketball numnut...You are aware that shandon shot 26% from 3 point land this year as opposed to DJ 37%...And after Andersons stellar 3 for 15 performance he is shooting .2381 for the series..And you think DJ could do worse??

Or do you just want us to lose and playing Anderson is the best way to do that..Then again,you think Eisly should be starting for the knicks


----------



## Webster's Dictionary (Feb 26, 2004)

Sounds like an Anderson I know for the Blazers.:sigh: I boycot everyone in the league who's last name is Anderson.

Derek
Shandon
Chris
and Kenny


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

is derek that bad???
ild take him in a heartbeat over shandon


----------



## Webster's Dictionary (Feb 26, 2004)

Go over to the Blazers forum. Look for posts from about two weeks ago. He had like 4 games in a row where he shot 16 shots and hit under 25%.

Kenny's the only Anderson I really don't mind. He was a pretty descent player.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Secondly,if it was up to you,Eisly would be bringing the ball up court..


Over Frank Williams, yes. And for pretty obvious reasoning too, Eisley doesn't turn the ball over every 5 minutes.




> You are aware that shandon shot 26% from 3 point land


You are aware that Anderson in the 2nd half of the season shot much better than Anderson in the first half of the season?



> this year as opposed to DJ 37%


You are aware that DJ got the majority of his points in garbage time and/or against scrub defenders? You are aware that DJ had something like 8 assists, 6 blocks, and 5 steals TOTAL over the entire year? Anderson had 3 assists and 3 steals in the last game. But keep referring to your stats. And DJ shot 37%? Was that his FG% or his 3pt%? Probably both.



> And you think DJ could do worse??


EASILY. DJ has a HORRIBLE FG%. How is he to benefit from playing against a stifling Net defense. Yes, it would be VERY possible for DJ to shoot worse than 23% from the field, no question. KT went 1 for 9 in game 1 or something. Why are you talking like a low FG% against a good defensive team is a rarity? The Nets held the Spurs to 40% shooting, so if they can hold the Knicks to lower than that it shouldn't be very surprising.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,let me spell it out for you as clearly as possible..Shandon Sucks...We ahve been getting blown out.....Hopefully TT will be back and penny will start and we will win


----------



## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

I agree that DJ's minutes have been mostly garbage ones or incredibly short periods at the end of quarters. But when he started he was not nearly as bad. I agree with you, Rashidi, that he's erratic, but he CAN (only can or may) produce INSTANT OFFENSE, which Shandon will not do. While Clankerson may be a better defender he's cancelling that out by being an offensive liability. All I'm saying is DJ is a wild card whereas Shandon is proving consistently awful, at least in this series. Why not mix it up now that we're in an 0-2 hole? That's called an ADJUSTMENT, something Lenny seems incapable of, and which both your stat-driven loyalty and contrariness about dissention opinions are keeping you from making as well. Rashidi, what would your strategy be for the rest of the series (i know you're skeptical the Knicks can do anything to right the ship, but one has to try, otherwise you might as well advocate a forfeit)? Spell out your strategy for games 3 and 4 (and beyond if possible) instead of only poking holes in other's frustration-motivated suggestions. I have no problem with your being critical of the Knicks or of other fans--I don't think this disqualifies you from being a fan yourself at all, but I would like to see you, and I think others would as well, advance constructive criticism, advance a gameplan or substitution strategy rather than merely pot-shotting management, the coach, and posters (i know others pot-shot as well--I'm just asking you to expand your posting game to include productive strategies as well). Fair enough?


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

*Suddenly Rashidi starts a "Let's go Layden" chant in Madison Square Garden and is joined by Don Chaney, Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley and ofcourse....Scott Layden!*
*Rashidi and the rest of this crew dance on center court after the Game 3 loss by the Knicks putting them on the brink of elimination*
*Rashidi then comes out for the beginning of Game 4 and states that the people do not know what a real fan is, then trashes the team and flies back to Utah to have lunch with Layden*


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>NYKFan123</b>!
> *Suddenly Rashidi starts a "Let's go Layden" chant in Madison Square Garden and is joined by Don Chaney, Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley and ofcourse....Scott Layden!*
> *Rashidi and the rest of this crew dance on center court after the Game 3 loss by the Knicks putting them on the brink of elimination*
> *Rashidi then comes out for the beginning of Game 4 and states that the people do not know what a real fan is, then trashes the team and flies back to Utah to have lunch with Layden*


 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 


Thanks for telling it like it is !


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*Great post*

Inapperent,that was an excellent post..And I couldnt agree with you more on DJ...I am not saying he is the savior,but its obvious that Anderson is killing us...

The Nets are a better squad especially with TT and H20 out..DJ i inconsistent and RJ did kick his butt 2 weeks ago..He should be matched up against Kittles,and Penny should play the point...

As for Rashidi,he never ever puts himself out there and is always critical and highly negative..Its to the point now where it appears most of his comments are just made to annoy everyone else.He is the ultimate hindsight analyst and is quite good at playing revisionist history...

I do have to wonder if he has cable TV,cause its mind boggling that anyone could be watching the games and supporting Anderson..


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Make no mistake, I am not criticizing the coaching staff. There are plenty of other people who criticize Wilkins more than I do. I am already satisfied with the gameplan. The truth is the Knicks are simply an inferior team. There is no miracle upset waiting in the wings. The Knicks are playing the two time defending eastern conference champions, against a team that continually owns them in the regular season. I still don't know why people wanted this matchup so badly, it certainly wasn't related to anything that happened on the court. The Knicks got owned by the Nets without Martin and Kidd, how are they supposed to win when both are playing? Marbury has never won a playoff series, and the last time TT won one, he was the 4th best guy and came off the bench, not the 2nd best guy.

By the way, speaking of playoff experience, Shandon is a two time NBA Finalist, while DJ has never played meaningful minutes for a decent team, much less ever felt the pressure of playing in the playoffs. The more that's brought to the table about DJ, the more it seems like him being on the bench for this series is indeed a good idea.

What would I change about the strategy? I'd try using Vin Baker more than just garbage time. Kurt Thomas flat out sucks, he had an overrated year, and he's done nothing since getting his fat contract extension. The Knicks have to go on the offensive and try to get Kenyon Martin in foul trouble. The problem is a jumpshooter like Kurt Thomas doesn't draw many fouls (nor do they draw many offensive rebounds for that matter). Nazr has no interior defense and Deke is too slow to use all game. Baker is faster than them both. Sweetney is a garbage collector, he's like Nazr but shorter. Bad on defense, a bit more creative on offense. Sweets is a better shot blocker than Nazr, so I think I would go with KT at C, Baker starts, and when Sweetney comes off bench I would move him to center if Baker was staying in the game. Next, try keeping Aaron Williams out of the lane. He is embarassing Kurt Thomas, which pretty much means that Isiah's first contract extension is going to end up a bad one. I don't see any team taking KT for what he's making, nor do I see him improving any further. Basically the Knicks overpayed for a semi-popular player that peaked. Maybe the Knicks will get really lucky and Marcus Camby demands a sign and trade to NY instead of staying in Denver. Assuming he'd stay healthy that is.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> I still don't know why people wanted this matchup so badly


read the posts..we wanted the Nets with Kidd and Martin injured and not playing.....Thats why we wanted the Nets...



> Shandon is a two time NBA Finalist, while DJ has never played meaningful minutes for a decent team, much less ever felt the pressure of playing in the playoffs. The more that's brought to the table about DJ, the more it seems like him being on the bench for this series is indeed a good idea.


Clyde also won the MVP for the Knicks against the lakers..Should we start him????Rashidi,no one is saying DJ is the savior..We need some offense and Shandon is killing us...Do you not see that??

BTW,I LIKE your strategy and completely agree with you on Baker and Sweetney...

The only point we disagree on is Shandon...Hes the wrong guy when Starbury is getting trapped...His handle is shaky,hes a bit out of control and he thinks you get 2 points for just hitting the backboard...Why are you so against DJ getting some time??


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

Rashidi, that's your first meaningful post in over 6 months, congrats. Good points made, other than Anderson...


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Shandon was shooting because that's what the Net defense was allowing. Please don't act like Penny or DJ are any better at shooting. Shandon plays because DJ can't play defense to save his life, and Kittles/Kidd would force a turnover from him every time. Shandon is quicker than Penny, which makes him a better matchup against Kittles. The Knicks ARE trying to limit the amount of fastbreak points against them you know. And if I'm not mistaken, didn't Shandon convert some key fastbreak during the only Knick run in the game? Really, I'm sick of hearing about DJ, the most overrated 12th man in basketball, as if he's some sort of answer in this series.


The Nets were smart at allowing Anderson to shoot. I am saying that Penny and DJ are better shooters than Anderson. Anderson just sucks offensively, and as inapparent said that counters his defensive upgrade over DJ. Anderson's defense is overrated. It isn't like Anderson is a defensive specialist like Bowen, it is just that he is better defensivly than DJ and some other Knicks. Granted it means something but his offense is killing us, and his defense hasn't been helping us these few games. I'm not saying that DJ is the savior but I think he is the better option than Anderson, and we do need to try something new now. I agree with you Rashidi that we probably do have the inferior team rightnow, which is also why we need to play DJ right now. Since we will probably lose the series wouldn't it be better to have DJ gain some valuable playoff experience?


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> You are aware that DJ got the majority of his points in garbage time and/or against scrub defenders? You are aware that DJ had something like 8 assists, 6 blocks, and 5 steals TOTAL over the entire year? Anderson had 3 assists and 3 steals in the last game. But keep referring to your stats. And DJ shot 37%? Was that his FG% or his 3pt%? Probably both.


You do also realize that you shouldn't compare DJ's season totals with Andersons because Anderson plays so much often right? Granted DJ may have worse averages but playing only a few minutes at a time does that to your stats. Players usually need to get a but warmed up before they really start playing. Ever wonder why the begining of quaters and games are low scoring copared to other parts of the game?


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Make no mistake, I am not criticizing the coaching staff. There are plenty of other people who criticize Wilkins more than I do. I am already satisfied with the gameplan. The truth is the Knicks are simply an inferior team. There is no miracle upset waiting in the wings. The Knicks are playing the two time defending eastern conference champions, against a team that continually owns them in the regular season. I still don't know why people wanted this matchup so badly, it certainly wasn't related to anything that happened on the court. The Knicks got owned by the Nets without Martin and Kidd, how are they supposed to win when both are playing? Marbury has never won a playoff series, and the last time TT won one, he was the 4th best guy and came off the bench, not the 2nd best guy.
> 
> By the way, speaking of playoff experience, Shandon is a two time NBA Finalist, while DJ has never played meaningful minutes for a decent team, much less ever felt the pressure of playing in the playoffs. The more that's brought to the table about DJ, the more it seems like him being on the bench for this series is indeed a good idea.
> ...



Yes, sadly, the Knicks probably do have the niferior team, but that doesn't stop the slim chance that they can win. Granted, it is wishful thinking, but I would rather have some hope for my team instead of thinking gloomy thoughts all day long. 

The Knicks wanted to play the Nets because they had the most questions about their team at the time. Kidd and Martin were questionable because of injuries. The Pacers were a strong team like the Nets but did not have their two best players have injury question marks. The Pistons were just plain scary (especially defensively) after getting Wallace.

Anderson does have more experience now. But since you think (and probably correctly) that we have no chance wouldn't it be better for DJ to gain his experience rightnow by playing? DJ at least has a future, no matter how bright you think it is, while Anderson is on his way down. 

I agree with yout hat Baker probably needs a few more minutes but I'm not ready to give up on Nazr yet. The Knicks also resigned KT at a really bad time, wasn't it around the time he was making ever shot he took?


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dcrono3</b>!
> 
> The Knicks also resigned KT at a really bad time, wasn't it around the time he was making ever shot he took?


It was around the time his pinky injury was fresh. Early on it didn't seem to affect his shot and he made those 14 consecutive shots and was looking great. But then the swelling set in. I've not seen the pinky but I've heard from people who've seen pictures of it that it's gotten really nasty.

VH has a messed up finger too and it's totally affected his game. Nobody is calling him a dog because his production has dropped off significantly since injuring it.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> VH has a messed up finger too and it's totally affected his game. Nobody is calling him a dog because his production has dropped off significantly since injuring it.


Actually I recall a bunch of people bouncing up and down when he faltered against the Knicks.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Make all the excuses you want for DJ. He doesn't get enough minutes? 

DJ had 11 assists, 8 steals, and 7 blocks, in Those are HORRIBLE ratios no matter how you slice it, and he had a .371 FG%.

When DJ was a starter in Atlanta, he wasn't putting up better numbers than Shandon is now. He put up the same points, fewer assists, rebounds in a similar amount of time, still had a lower FG% then, and he hasn't improved since then.


----------



## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

Rashidi, thank you, that was exactly what i wanted to hear. And, i basically agree with you as well, except about Anderson, whose playoff experience isn't translating into grace under pressure in this series. But yes, the Knicks are outmatched, and I think your Baker point is at least as valid as what I was saying about DJ now that we have nothing to lose (except more games). And most importantly, as I also posted about this last week, I completely agree about KT--I understand that he may be affected by his injury and that that may be something he can remedy over the offseason, but I was really dismayed when i saw the details of his contract in re the 15% trade kicker--even at top, peaking form, KT doesn't have a lowpost game, is undersized (even at PT and esp. in the West), and is not an avid collector of offensive rebounds. This makes him at his new salary, w/kicker, at his age...VERY HARD TO TRADE, and forget about for equal value. In addition, his recent performance will scare teams off and decrease his value, even if the pinkie heals--this stretch will be remembered by teams. Maybe at the Feb. deadline next year, but i doubt IT has the jedi mind skills to move him this summer for anything that would make us happy. so, finally, I'm not sure I understand the signing--if IT signed him to trade him later (thinking Rasheed was coming for instance), then why'd he agree to the trade kicker clause? If he was just signing him out of evaluative belief and/or loyalty then he mildly over paid (but maybe that's just a structural Knick thing, like the Houston thing but not as bad). At this point I'd take back scrubs/rookies with mild upside and a mid-1st round draft pick for him (I'd love Marquis Daniels but it already ain't gonna happen--by the way how did this guy just start blowing up like that--the guy is playing like a quasi-allstar out of nowhere). My jury is going to be out on IT for a few years, even though some of the moves he's made I lay at upper management's door in the same way I don't ENTIRELY blame Layden even though I do think he was awful, drove me crazy, had no communication skills, had utah-colored spectacles, etc. You need 3 years i think to properly evaluate a GM, but i have to agree with Rashidi that the KT extension is looking more and more like a mistake even if he "rebounds" to recent form. I'd like to see any realistic trade proposals for KT this summer people can dream up. out.


----------



## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

to follow up slightly, this, from today's NYTimes:

"Still, even with a healthy Houston and Thomas, who is also doubtful for Game 4, the Knicks would almost certainly lose to the Nets. But their absence, particularly Houston's, makes it impossible to judge the roster Isiah Thomas has put together since becoming the Knicks' president of basketball operations on Dec. 22. The good news for Knicks fans is that Isiah Thomas is far from satisfied. His charge upon being hired by James L. Dolan, the Garden chairman, was to get the Knicks into the playoffs. And with the help of an Eastern Conference lacking in good teams, he did that.

But while Dolan was talking playoffs, Thomas was talking championship. So in the off-season, everyone except perhaps Marbury is likely to be on the trading block, though Houston and Penny Hardaway are essentially assured of remaining with the Knicks because of their contracts. Wilkens has at least two more years of guaranteed money, so despite his less-than-glowing performance, one would think he would return, too. Those dreamers counting on Kobe Bryant donning a Knicks uniform should save themselves some heartache because the Knicks have only the $5 million midlevel exception to offer. And the Knicks do not have the assets to get Bryant in a sign and trade should he decide to leave the Los Angeles Lakers. Adding Rasheed Wallace looked possible before he was traded to Detroit in February, but now it is hard to envision Wallace turning down a Detroit offer worth two or three times more than the Knicks can afford."


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually I recall a bunch of people bouncing up and down when he faltered against the Knicks.


That's because it was BEFORE his injury.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Make all the excuses you want for DJ. He doesn't get enough minutes?


we arent making excuses for DJ,nor are we calling him our savior..we are saying that Shandon Anderson is terrible,is killing us on offense and by playing him you are playing right into Jerseys hands....There is no excuse for that guy to be firing 15 missles at the backboard...


I will say this for you..You are consistent..You are not one for change..You were content when the Knicks were playing .350 ball,you liked Layden and was content to watch Eisly at PG.It doesnt suprise me that you like Anderson at the 2 guard..Its consistent with your personality..


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>inapparent</b>!
> Rashidi, thank you, that was exactly what i wanted to hear. And, i basically agree with you as well, except about Anderson, whose playoff experience isn't translating into grace under pressure in this series. But yes, the Knicks are outmatched, and I think your Baker point is at least as valid as what I was saying about DJ now that we have nothing to lose (except more games). And most importantly, as I also posted about this last week, I completely agree about KT--I understand that he may be affected by his injury and that that may be something he can remedy over the offseason, but I was really dismayed when i saw the details of his contract in re the 15% trade kicker--even at top, peaking form, KT doesn't have a lowpost game, is undersized (even at PT and esp. in the West), and is not an avid collector of offensive rebounds. This makes him at his new salary, w/kicker, at his age...VERY HARD TO TRADE, and forget about for equal value. In addition, his recent performance will scare teams off and decrease his value, even if the pinkie heals--this stretch will be remembered by teams. Maybe at the Feb. deadline next year, but i doubt IT has the jedi mind skills to move him this summer for anything that would make us happy. so, finally, I'm not sure I understand the signing--if IT signed him to trade him later (thinking Rasheed was coming for instance), then why'd he agree to the trade kicker clause? If he was just signing him out of evaluative belief and/or loyalty then he mildly over paid (but maybe that's just a structural Knick thing, like the Houston thing but not as bad). At this point I'd take back scrubs/rookies with mild upside and a mid-1st round draft pick for him (I'd love Marquis Daniels but it already ain't gonna happen--by the way how did this guy just start blowing up like that--the guy is playing like a quasi-allstar out of nowhere). My jury is going to be out on IT for a few years, even though some of the moves he's made I lay at upper management's door in the same way I don't ENTIRELY blame Layden even though I do think he was awful, drove me crazy, had no communication skills, had utah-colored spectacles, etc. You need 3 years i think to properly evaluate a GM, but i have to agree with Rashidi that the KT extension is looking more and more like a mistake even if he "rebounds" to recent form. I'd like to see any realistic trade proposals for KT this summer people can dream up. out.


KT has to be kept in perspective. The team was designed for him to be a 4th or 5th offensive option. Instead, now he's asked to be our second option behind marbury.

I believe our offense should have been stacked roughly like so, in terms of PPG: 

Houston = 21
Marbury = 18
TT = 18
Nazr = 13
KT = 11

These are very practical and obtainable numbers. Add 15 from the bench and you average 96 PPG.

So KT is your basic 4th option, good defender, good screen setter, double/double guy. His game compares favorably with guys like PJ Brown, Antonio Davis, Dale Davis, etc. Let's look at their salaries next year.

AD = 12,000,000
DD = 9,000,000
PJ = 8,000,000

KT = 5,885,000

KT is still quite reasonable relative to fair market value for good defending double double PFs.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Actually I recall a bunch of people bouncing up and down when he faltered against the Knicks.


you recall your version .........

I rejoiced in the knicks winning that Milwaukee game..Not because i really cared ,but because I couldnt bare to listen to any more of your ANTI TT spews..You never gave TT a chance,not for one day..You always had an excuse when he played well,and even brought up KVH when he was a Buck

I happen to be a KVH fan..But I thought it was fair to give TT a chance,something you refuse to do with anyone other than an ex layden guy..You are doing the exact same thing with Anderson and DJ,even though Anderson is killing us...

How many people on the board has thrown it in your face that KVH has scored something like 4 points in 2 playoff games..You and i both know you would spew for days if TT ever played like Shandon...You are sarcastic,bitter and a total hypocrite...And it comes out in almost every single post...Maybe thats why Knick fans dont treat you the way you like...Go to any other board and see what would happen if you bashed their team daily and posed as a plan....Whatever goes around,comes around


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

At least VH has played in 2 playoff games.


----------



## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

oakman, i agree mostly with your description of what KT is and where he should figure in the NYK offense but not with some of your other points. For one thing, all of those other guys are way overpaid, with the possible exception of PJ; 2) they're all much better shotblockers i think, and bigger bodies; 3) i thought KT's new 3 yr extension paid him around 7.5 mil a year, and that's pre-trade kicker, which would put him at about 8.5 if traded; 4) he's a double-double threat yes, but won't average one, even on a team without another dominant rebounder--what'd he average this year--8.6 or something? 5) i'm not sure we'll ever see his peak performance again--i'd love to be wrong about that of course--i've come to almost love his wall-eyed glare.

and then lastly, your scoring breakdown seems pretty reasonable except...that at this point i'd reverse Marbury and Houston's scoring load and I think 13 ppg is beginning to look unrealistic for Nazr both bc his defense means he won't get the minutes and bc he's a 16pts one game, 7 the next kind of guy--i see him averaging 10.5 tops unless he *really* dedicates himself on both ends and matures.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> At least VH has played in 2 playoff games.


except TT has scored more in one quarter than KVH has scored in 2 games..

only a twisted demento like you would come up with a comparison like that...


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> At least VH has played in 2 playoff games


As I said "You are sarcastic,bitter and a total hypocrite...And it comes out in almost every single post".....


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>inapparent</b>!
> oakman, i agree mostly with your description of what KT is and where he should figure in the NYK offense but not with some of your other points. For one thing, all of those other guys are way overpaid, with the possible exception of PJ;


They are indeed, but Kurt is well below them in salary. I'm not trying to be right about this, I'm open for dscussion, but in comparing smilar vets thats what I found.

You know, I'm not the brightest bulb on this board, but I do back up my case and cite my sources, so lets take a look. Feel free to beat me at my own game.



> 2) they're all much better shotblockers i think, and bigger bodies;


I'm not going to evaluate a players game on size, I don't see the relevance (brand and boozer are way undersized too), but lets look at blocks.

From NBA.com:

KT: 1.0 bpg
PJB: .91 bpg
DD: .82 bpg
AD: .81 bpg




> 3) i thought KT's new 3 yr extension paid him around 7.5 mil a year, and that's pre-trade kicker, which would put him at about 8.5 if traded;


Again, I'm no expert but I'll cite my source:

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

He's not at ~8M his last year of contract, 4 years from now. Doesn't say about the trade kicker.

You can look up the other guys if you like. But I qouted directly form the same source.




> 4) he's a double-double threat yes, but won't average one, even on a team without another dominant rebounder--what'd he average this year--8.6 or something?


His stats for the year are 11.1/8.3. Your right, he's not a career double double guy.

But again, this isn't about absolutes, it's about how tradable he is relative to others.

Here's a statistical ranking of PFs:

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/playerrankings/regularseason/PF

He's in the middle of the pack of starters. But most of those better than him cost more than him. Those who don't: A) will not be on the block, and B) are mostly young players still working off their first contracts. They surely won't be cheaper than him after THEIR extensions.





> 5) i'm not sure we'll ever see his peak performance again--i'd love to be wrong about that of course--i've come to almost love his wall-eyed glare.


No way to know. I think he can be as good as the last two seasons once his pinky is better. Why not, he's 32, he's got 3 more solid years before significant dropoff I'd say.



> and then lastly, your scoring breakdown seems pretty reasonable except...that at this point i'd reverse Marbury and Houston's scoring load and I think 13 ppg is beginning to look unrealistic for Nazr both bc his defense means he won't get the minutes and bc he's a 16pts one game, 7 the next kind of guy--i see him averaging 10.5 tops unless he *really* dedicates himself on both ends and matures.


Yes, my breakdown is how I envisioned the team, and while I'd like to hope it's obtainable I accept it's an optimistic view. It's what I think would work and I imagine is what Isiah envisioned.

A more realistic expectation might be:

Marbury = 19 ppg
Houston = 17 ppg
TT = 16 ppg
KT = 11 ppg
Nazr = 10 ppg
----------
total 73 ppg
bench = 17
total 90 ppg

But the point is still that KTs scoring role should be limited. It's sad that the team needs him to score 20 ppg to be effective. 

And I think his 5.5M salary is in line with others who perform at a similar level. If I'm wrong than show me at least 5 other PFs over 30yrs old who put up his numbers for less money.


----------



## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

Oak, I wasn't trying to catch you out, just discuss, and I accept your stats work for the most part--on the blocks per game i was thinking of those fellows in recent years, not just this campaign, but maybe even then i'm wrong about the numbers. as for salary, i heard the extension was 4 years at 30million, but i guess i need to check before i wreck myself. lastly, if KT doesn't regain his form he will be overpaid even at his future salaries AND he can't make himself more attractive over the summer when there are no games, so: mostly what I was saying is that the extension was pitched to the fans as the prelude to a trade deal and that is looking less and less likely to me. More worrisome is that I accept your revised starter's point production and that, combined with your bench, is not enough to win games, esp. when you don't have a Pistonian defense to bail out your offense. I'm very worried about next year, regardless of who's coaching, bc I don't think a full training camp is going to make a significant enough difference. the Knicks are at least one real PLAYER away from making any significant noise in the L or even the East for that matter, probably it would have to be a low post guy, and I'm less and less clear on how they can obtain that guy unless Rasheed's wife makes him move to Gotham. In other words, the problem is not only that KT should be a 4th option and there isn't a player currently who can demote him to that comfortable position, but that our 2nd and 3rd options at present (H2O and TT) are themselves borderline, i.e., would probably be 3rd and 4th options on a championship-caliber team (this is assuming Allan doesn't return to 20+ ppg form). So, barring Rasheed, the only way out to me looks like a) Sweetney REALLY making good on his flashes of promise and b) Isiah recovering a decent 1st rounder through a trade somehow and lucking out on a stud no one projected as definitely being one (e.g., a Kosta Perovic or a sleeper Amare, etc). Can someone imagine a way for IT to recoup a pick this year? Dangling Williams? Moving KT somehow? and finally finally, your bulb is plenty bright--i always enjoy your posts.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Inapparent,we are in deep shiit regarding getting any help from the draft..But lets face it,unless Isiah can pull a rabitt out of the hat,how many players past #10 have immediate impact??

Isiahs bets are pretty obvious...Sweetney has to develop down low,and he clearly has to work on his body and become an even better athlete..Not that anyone is playing well for us,but hes not kicking butt the way he was against lesser comp...But I do believe he has what it takes.

H20 has to heal,and if he doesnt,I do believe he is the type of guy to retire..Hes not gonna pull a Penny hardaway and endure countless operations.With that said,whether certain people like it or not,I think DJ is going to be out 2 guard..Its a big IF,but he has shown some flashes,and I would not underestimate the heart of a guy who has battled back from a broken neck....

So,where does that leave us??Undermanned in the post..I dont know how much upside Naz has and he certainly isnt a defensive presense..can we get(or want) a Mark Blount??Can we somehow get Camby back in NYC??Assuming Sweetney and DJ can develop,we are a big man away from being formidable in the East.

I trust that IT will do anything and everything to tight the ship


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

innapparent, I know you weren't being combative, I don't know why I took that stance. I think because I've seen KT taking a lot of flak on another board, and while it's true he's no star, he's a dependable guy for his money, one of the few defensive presences on an otherwise pretty soft team. So I don't rave about him but I do show him some love and respect.

As for our predicament, I think you summed it up very well. I'm pretty pessimistic too. But at the same time, if Houston should come back to fair health, where he can say play 30 mins a game for more than 62 games a season - with Marbury and TT, that's an acceptable 1 thru 3. Sweets will match KT soon enough, making KT expendable, and there has been interest in him in the past. Frankie is expendable. Together they make a chip to get a solid player, but not a star. But we have all our picks next year. So I could see us winning 50% of our games next year as is, easy, then trading and drafting to impove on that. Then the following year trading Penny's expiring contract for someone decent or more picks. The following year we are free of Houston and Anderson's contracts.

I certainly don't see us as contenders for a long time, but I do see us as potentially competing in the upper 4 spots in the east. That's not how I was feeling when we were starting Eisley, Shandon, and McKnee.

I like your posts too, I only wish you'd post more.


----------



## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

well here's another. next year's pick i thought was conditionally going to the suns to in the Marbury trade--i think we'll have a good enough record that the pick will be dep mid-1st and so expendable and we shuold ship it off barring a slew of injuries landing us in the lottery. as for truth, i share your pain and the hopes that come from that pain, but i do think that there have been plenty of keepers and even stars past #10 in the draft--especially with the highschoolers and Euros, which have kicked US college players down into the middle of the first round. it's now even possible, if you're amrt/lucky to land a freak in the 2nd round like Boozer or Rashard Lewis, Arenas or Redd (wasn't Redd a 2nd rounder?). it doesn't happen often enough or with the predictability to make the Knicks' pick next year a lock to keep which is hwy I said ship it out barring a catastrophic record. lastly, Oak's point about 2 and 3 years down the road is where I see some hope--we will suddenly have attractive ending contracts and we can ship those out for expensive players, which is the one good thing about the Knick payroll. If we can get Rasheed/Ray Allen types for those ending contracts we can reload with late20something stars or near stars to put around a nucleus of Marbury, Sweets and TT. Knicks all the way in 2007! or something like that. For now, it's a waiting game in which there will be some pleasures and a lot of pain. We better keep Sweets--it will/would be fun to watch him blossom if he makes good on his late-season promise.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Make all the excuses you want for DJ. He doesn't get enough minutes?
> 
> DJ had 11 assists, 8 steals, and 7 blocks, in Those are HORRIBLE ratios no matter how you slice it, and he had a .371 FG%.
> ...


Yet when Dermarr was starting for the Hawks he was 19 and 20 years old and just got into the league. Even players like Kobe and McGrady didn't do that well (abit better than DJ somewhat) when they were 19 and 20. In fact, besides the obvious superstar talents like KG, LeBron, Melo, how many players do you see putting up gaudy stats when when they are in their teens? DJ never got a chance to fully develope because of his crash. Granted, DJ is not a sure thing and he could turn into a bust, but IMO we should give DJ a chance to develope, since he has potential.

Anderson, on the other hand, has been playing in the NBA for aquite a few seasons and has reached his peak long ago. HE should be playing better than a young player who bvarely has NBA experience. If they are average comparable stats, I wuold think the young player with almost no experience is a better bet to help the team instead of the old vetern on the downside of his career.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

I agree with most of you guys here that the Knicks are suffering from a lack of talent. But as some of you guys mentioned we do have some tradable assets that could get us a solid player who can at least make us respectable in the East. I also love the prospect of who we might get with all of the expiring contracts in 2 to 3 years.


----------



## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

at least KT has been looking better, whether we keep him or dangle him as trade bait and bring in someone else we can all (respectfully?) argue about. here's to a busy offseason, hopefully one that doesn't entail acquiring people over 30 years of age, players from Utah, soft French centers, or reluctant Slavic point guards. i think IT will be busy, which doesn't mean he has the tools to get anything done without some other GMs doing Layden impersonations. at least we're not going to lose anyone painful in the The Great Bobcat Draft of 2004. SOmeone start an offseason moves thread pronto--why wait?--we're not patient people are we?


----------



## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

we do have a second rounder this year and i don't like NBADraft.net's projection of Matt Freije very much--below us in the 2nd round Romain Sato, Brandon Mouton, Andre Emmett, and Chris Garnett are all available, all of whom i'd rather take a flyer on, hoping they magically evolve into Redds or Danielses or Boozers or Dalemberts.


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

Dalembert was 1st round just for info...


----------



## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

my bad. in my defense, he *seems* like a second round steal though.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I think I might have started the rumor he was a second rounder. But I think he went quite late in the first: #26 of 29.

My point remains though that we could have had him if we hadn't traded for either Othella or Jackson, let alone both.


----------

