# State of the Magic



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

State of the Magic
Questionable deals, ankles diminish rebuilt Magic's luster

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/basketball/nba/10/11/state.magic/index.html











Sorry, but this guy is an idiot. This is the same guy that said Reece Gaines was one of the bright spots of the team last year.

And makes comments like -



> DeShawn Stevenson -- Good athlete who was re-signed by the Magic over the summer. Not in Giricek's league, though.


DeShawn isn't that great, but exactly what league is Giricek in?

I'm putting this in the From the Doubters thread.


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

Heh that Gaines comment still makes me smirk. That Stevenson one is pretty good too. Actually, looking at just the stats, outside of percentages, I wonder if any two players are more alike than Stevenson and Giricek?


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MJG</b>!
> Heh that Gaines comment still makes me smirk. That Stevenson one is pretty good too. Actually, looking at just the stats, outside of percentages, I wonder if any two players are more alike than Stevenson and Giricek?


Yeah, pretty much after the Rockets one I read (partially), I haven't read any of the others. The guy appears to be extremely pessimistic and not analyzing things without personal opinions totally getting in the way.

There are some people who aren't as optimistic about Orlando as others, but for the most part that is by far the most negative view of things I have read.

Sometimes it amazes me how some writers keep their jobs.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

The guy didn't even put grant hill in the projected lineup


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

Steve Francis doesn't help a team win games?

We always talk about that year that the Rockets sucked when Francis was injured and they were able to get Yao. I finally found the stats for that year. In 2001-2002 the Rockets were 26-31 with Francis and *2-23* without him. Tell me this guy isn't a winner.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

Some things he says are a bit foolish, but others are spot on, such as the comments on the questionable moves Weisbrod has made since becoming GM. And it is fairly true that Stevenson is a clear cut below Giricek. Giricek is a better offensive and defensive player than Stevenson, who is a mediocre guard by all accounts.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> Steve Francis doesn't help a team win games?
> 
> We always talk about that year that the Rockets sucked when Francis was injured and they were able to get Yao. I finally found the stats for that year. In 2001-2002 the Rockets were 26-31 with Francis and *2-23* without him. Tell me this guy isn't a winner.


The Rockets were still under .500 with Francis though, so technically, they were just better losers with him.


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

who cares..he has depth now..

francis+mobely+cato+dwight+hill+garrity+glu+stevenson+bogans+nelson+everyone else= wins


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> The Rockets were still under .500 with Francis though, so technically, they were just better losers with him.


Maybe I should have phrased that better. Francis hasn't exactly been a big winner in his career but that year clearly shows the tremendously *positive* effect that he has on a team. He also had a higher +/- than Yao this year.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> Maybe I should have phrased that better. Francis hasn't exactly been a big winner in his career but that year clearly shows the tremendously *positive* effect that he has on a team. He also had a higher +/- than Yao this year.


:yes: 

That was a great stat. And HKF, I totally disagree with your last point. Not being on a winning team doesn't mean a player can't be a winner(which in my book means the same thing as having a positive effect on your team). Francis obviously had a big impact on the Rockets, and I expect the same this year from Steve.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> Some things he says are a bit foolish, but others are spot on, such as the comments on the questionable moves Weisbrod has made since becoming GM. And it is fairly true that Stevenson is a clear cut below Giricek. Giricek is a better offensive and defensive player than Stevenson, who is a mediocre guard by all accounts.


I disagree. Very little of that article and most of the others I have read from that guy are spot on. 

And there have not been many questionable moves made by Weisbrod. Most of the moves he has made so far he has gotten positive reviews across the board for. Maybe Orlando shouldn't have let go of Zaza or Varejao, but we are talking about probably career backup players, so those are minor things.

And I strongly disagree on Giricek being anywhere near clear cut above Stevenson. Neither is that great, but Giricek certainly is not better defensively than Stevenson. He was one of the worst defenders on the worst defensive team in the league. Teams used to purposely target Giricek offensively. Stevenson isn't a great defender, but he is a better athlete and defender than Giri. And offensively they are about equal, with Stevenson being a better slasher/driver and Giri being a bit better from the outside. Maybe Giricek would be better offensively if he didn't go through long dry spells from lack of confidence but I prefer not having a guy who might get you 20 one game and throw up a donut the next 2 or 3 while starting.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Everyone seems to be overrating Giricek, particularly defensively ever since the trade to Utah. He played much better defense in Utah than he did in Orlando, but he didn't just magically become a better defender, it's all the system and the coach. Stevenson is clearly a more versatile defender too. No way Giricek has the quickness to cover point guards effectively.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Everyone seems to be overrating Giricek, particularly defensively ever since the trade to Utah. He played much better defense in Utah than he did in Orlando, but he didn't just magically become a better defender, it's all the system and the coach. Stevenson is clearly a more versatile defender too. No way Giricek has the quickness to cover point guards effectively.


It has to be the system, because I would not have even have considered him "average" defender while in Orlando. I remember teams targeting him purposely on offense.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

You may remember a few plays when people took it to Gordan Giricek, but the stats say that he was scored on less than any other guy who got regular minutes for the Magic last year. It's not just Utah's system, Stevenson's defense also sucked when he played for the Jazz.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I disagree. Very little of that article and most of the others I have read from that guy are spot on.
> 
> And there have not been many questionable moves made by Weisbrod. Most of the moves he has made so far he has gotten positive reviews across the board for. Maybe Orlando shouldn't have let go of Zaza or Varejao, but we are talking about probably career backup players, so those are minor things.


There have been plenty of questionable moves that Weisbrod has made. I've already argued this ad nasuem, so just check one of the old threads on Weisbrod. 



> And I strongly disagree on Giricek being anywhere near clear cut above Stevenson. Neither is that great, but Giricek certainly is not better defensively than Stevenson. He was one of the worst defenders on the worst defensive team in the league. Teams used to purposely target Giricek offensively. Stevenson isn't a great defender, but he is a better athlete and defender than Giri. And offensively they are about equal, with Stevenson being a better slasher/driver and Giri being a bit better from the outside. Maybe Giricek would be better offensively if he didn't go through long dry spells from lack of confidence but I prefer not having a guy who might get you 20 one game and throw up a donut the next 2 or 3 while starting.


Giricek was definitely better than Stevenson defensively. From the games I've watched of him over the last two years, he's more than held his own. I don't ever recall teams purposely targeting Giricek. All I remember were teams continously dumping inside and attacking our horrendous interior defense. Looking at simply opposing PER's for both Giricek and Stevenson while they were in Orlando (it has flaws, but it gives a good general sense of a players defensive abilities), Giricek held most of his opponents to around 13 or 14 PER, while Stevenson held opposing SG's at 16 PER and SF's at 20 PER. That's a clear and distinct gap. If you look at their Utah defensive numbers, you get the same result. Offensively, Giricek is also clearly superior to Stevenson. Giricek isn't just a "bit" better from the perimeter than Stevenson. He's miles better. On top of that, Giricek is almost the same caliber slasher that Stevenson is. People really underrate Giricek's ability to get to the hoop. If you look at their FTA numbers, Giricek averages 3.9 FTA/48 minutes for his career and Stevenson averages 3.8 FTA/48 minutes. Finally, you just have the simple fact that Giricek is just plum more efficient at scoring than Stevenson is, while doing it at a same or higher volume. It seems to me there's not much of an argument for Stevenson here. Oh, and toss in the fact that Giricek ranks 163rd in the league in +/- stats, while Stevenson is deep in the pits at 372.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> Giricek was definitely better than Stevenson defensively. From the games I've watched of him over the last two years, he's more than held his own. I don't ever recall teams purposely targeting Giricek. All I remember were teams continously dumping inside and attacking our horrendous interior defense. Looking at simply opposing PER's for both Giricek and Stevenson while they were in Orlando (it has flaws, but it gives a good general sense of a players defensive abilities), Giricek held most of his opponents to around 13 or 14 PER, while Stevenson held opposing SG's at 16 PER and SF's at 20 PER. That's a clear and distinct gap. If you look at their Utah defensive numbers, you get the same result.


So your main argument for Giricek definitely being better than Stevenson defensively is a statisctic that you admit obviously has flaws. All these honky-tonk stats people keep coming up with mean very little to me. I do remember team's targeting Giricek and I remember one game, although I cannot recall exactly the opponent, where they went after Giricek for 3 or 4 straight possessions and then Orlando switched Tmac to whoever Giricek was guarding and they went right back at Giricek with the other player. I don't need some conjured up stats, i've seen them both play on the court and maybe Stevenson is not a better defender, but Giricek certainly isn't any better either.




> Offensively, Giricek is also clearly superior to Stevenson. Giricek isn't just a "bit" better from the perimeter than Stevenson. He's miles better. On top of that, Giricek is almost the same caliber slasher that Stevenson is. People really underrate Giricek's ability to get to the hoop. If you look at their FTA numbers, Giricek averages 3.9 FTA/48 minutes for his career and Stevenson averages 3.8 FTA/48 minutes. Finally, you just have the simple fact that Giricek is just plum more efficient at scoring than Stevenson is, while doing it at a same or higher volume. It seems to me there's not much of an argument for Stevenson here. Oh, and toss in the fact that Giricek ranks 163rd in the league in +/- stats, while Stevenson is deep in the pits at 372.


Again, +/- mean very little to me because there are a lot of other thngs that stat cannot account for. I don't see how Giricek can be "clearly" better than Stevenson when they averaged almost the exact same ppg with Stevenson only getting a couple extra mins per game. And Giricek was also moving to a much better system with much better passing teammates. I don't think it is a coincidence that Giricek's numbers went up going to Utah and Stevensons went slightly down going to Orlando.

I'll give you that Giricek is better from 3pt, but other than that Stevenson is just as good offensively.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> So your main argument for Giricek definitely being better than Stevenson defensively is a statisctic that you admit obviously has flaws. All these honky-tonk stats people keep coming up with mean very little to me. I do remember team's targeting Giricek and I remember one game, although I cannot recall exactly the opponent, where they went after Giricek for 3 or 4 straight possessions and then Orlando switched Tmac to whoever Giricek was guarding and they went right back at Giricek with the other player. I don't need some conjured up stats, i've seen them both play on the court and maybe Stevenson is not a better defender, but Giricek certainly isn't any better either.


And your basing your opinion off one game? Great. That's MUCH better than using statistics, isn't it? 

And yes, the statistic does have limitations in that it doesn't account for defensive switches and the such, but as a general barometer of a player's defensive ability, it's a fine measure. 





> Again, +/- mean very little to me because there are a lot of other thngs that stat cannot account for. I don't see how Giricek can be "clearly" better than Stevenson when they averaged almost the exact same ppg with Stevenson only getting a couple extra mins per game. And Giricek was also moving to a much better system with much better passing teammates. I don't think it is a coincidence that Giricek's numbers went up going to Utah and Stevensons went slightly down going to Orlando.


These are adjusted +/- BTW, so they account for all the flaws of pure +/- statistics. Also, Stevenson played way more games in Utah than Giricek, so I'm not even sure how that's an argument. 



> I'll give you that Giricek is better from 3pt, but other than that Stevenson is just as good offensively.


Right, Giricek is much better at long range shooting, while being comparable at everything else, and doing so at a better efficiency rate. I think that qualifies Giricek as being clearly better than Stevenson offensively.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Giricek as good of a slasher as Stevenson? Not a chance. Giricek _always_ takes the ball to the hole and then doesn't know what to do when he gets there. How many times have you seen Giricek drive to the hoop baseline and then just throw the ball back out to the perimeter, usually to the other team? How many times? He did it *all* the time in Orlando, and I can only recall a handful of times when he actually finished a play off the drive. Stevenson is much more effective in the lane. My main gripe with DeShawn last year was that he wasn't nearly aggressive enough. He's clearly a superior slasher to Giricek though.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Giricek as good of a slasher as Stevenson? Not a chance. Giricek _always_ takes the ball to the hole and then doesn't know what to do when he gets there. How many times have you seen Giricek drive to the hoop baseline and then just throw the ball back out to the perimeter, usually to the other team? How many times? He did it *all* the time in Orlando, and I can only recall a handful of times when he actually finished a play off the drive. Stevenson is much more effective in the lane. My main gripe with DeShawn last year was that he wasn't nearly aggressive enough. He's clearly a superior slasher to Giricek though.


I didn't really see that. Maybe Giricek just happened to be a better, more aggressive slasher during the 10 or so games I've watched him over the past two seasons, but he was a quality slasher. I've never seen him just throw the ball to the opposing team. Sure, he'll pass out if there isn't a clear lane, but you could say that about any slasher, even McGrady. Giricek draws just as many fouls as Stevenson and it's pretty much a fact that most fouls come in the lane. Plus, I was never enamored with Stevenson's slashing ability. He would take it the rack more than Giricek, but he tended to be pretty sloppy, and a lot of times, he would just force some bad shots up. I would much rather take the safer, passive, and more efficient slasher than the wild, inefficient slasher.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> I didn't really see that. Maybe Giricek just happened to be a better, more aggressive slasher during the 10 or so games I've watched him over the past two seasons, but he was a quality slasher. I've never seen him just throw the ball to the opposing team. Sure, he'll pass out if there isn't a clear lane, but you could say that about any slasher, even McGrady. Giricek draws just as many fouls as Stevenson and it's pretty much a fact that most fouls come in the lane. Plus, I was never enamored with Stevenson's slashing ability. He would take it the rack more than Giricek, but he tended to be pretty sloppy, and a lot of times, he would just force some bad shots up. I would much rather take the safer, passive, and more efficient slasher than the wild, inefficient slasher.


You have never seen that play I'm talking about? Giricek did it allllll the time, I remember it would get on my nerves everytime he did it. He drives down the baseline and, without even looking for a shot, jumps in the air under the basket and just chucks the ball back out to the perimeter hoping a Magic player gets it. He seriously did that exact play all the time, I remember screaming at the TV everytime he did it(often).


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> You have never seen that play I'm talking about? Giricek did it allllll the time, I remember it would get on my nerves everytime he did it. He drives down the baseline and, without even looking for a shot, jumps in the air under the basket and just chucks the ball back out to the perimeter hoping a Magic player gets it. He seriously did that exact play all the time, I remember screaming at the TV everytime he did it(often).


Not from my recollection, no. I'm pretty sure it didn't happen all the time. He only averaged about 1 TOPG, so most likely it's just probably one or two isolated situations that left a bad taste in your mouth, but stuck out.


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