# At point, Denver is top drawer:



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Bit of a fluff piece for the Denver Nuggets point guards. However it's good to see Miller getting his props as he is my favorite player along side Melo on the Nuggets. Also Boykins get's a lot of ink in the article. Some interesting facts are how the Nuggets point guards stack up to other point guard lineups in the NBA. Coach Karl ranks Miller in the top 5-7 PG's in the league. I couldn't agree more myself!



> CHARLOTTE, N.C. - When Earl Boykins first met Andre Miller, he liked that Miller didn't dunk.
> No, this has nothing to do with the inability of the 5-foot-5 Boykins to dunk. Boykins probably wouldn't, even if he could.
> 
> Boykins liked that the 6-2 Miller didn't want to dunk. The two first met at a USA Basketball tryout camp in Colorado Springs in 1997, three years before Miller was booed at the NBA Rookie Challenge during All-Star Weekend for making a simple layup on a breakaway.
> ...





> "They're fun to coach," Nuggets coach George Karl said. "Andre is a solid competitor. I think he's in the top five to top seven (among point guards) in the league. Then you've got this little guy who can change a game any night. They can play together. You can play them separately."





> Miller this season is averaging 13.4 points and 7.8 assists in 34.5 minutes, and Boykins is averaging 12.0 points and 4.3 assists in 26.0 minutes.
> 
> Combine the stats of the two and project it over 48 minutes, and the Nuggets are getting 20.2 points and 9.6 assists a game at point guard.





> No backup blues
> 
> • Four NBA teams have point-guard combinations in which the starter and the backup each average 12 points or more. A look at these duos, with the starter for each team listed first:
> 
> ...


http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nba/article/0,2777,DRMN_23922_4308490,00.html


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## seremet (Jul 19, 2005)

Tr00!!! They are both above average playmakers and they do a great job together!!!


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

seremet said:


> Tr00!!! They are both above average playmakers and they do a great job together!!!


Definitely above average. I actually think of Miller as an all-star caliber player. He just doesn't get enough pub.


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## seremet (Jul 19, 2005)

Yeah and I think that it is a lot in fact that he doesn't dunk and do highlight stuff. But he does the right things and you can see it from his assists


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

seremet said:


> Yeah and I think that it is a lot in fact that he doesn't dunk and do highlight stuff. But he does the right things and you can see it from his assists


Exactly he is not a flashy player. He is a hard nose type of player. A player that does whatever the team needs to succeed. Plus add on to that Miller hasn't missed a game in some 3 years. By the way the most games he has ever missed in one season his entire career was 2. This guy is special.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Miller, top 5-7? Hah! He was at the end up last season, but he's been pretty bad so far. He has no concept of how to run an offense. All he wants to do is drive to the basket for his own shot. If that constitutes a top 5-7 point guard, the league is in bad shape.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Miller, top 5-7? Hah! He was at the end up last season, but he's been pretty bad so far. He has no concept of how to run an offense. All he wants to do is drive to the basket for his own shot. If that constitutes a top 5-7 point guard, the league is in bad shape.


For you to say Miller has no concept of how to run an offense. Is the most untrue statement I have ever heard.

Go back and do your homework regarding Miller as a point guard. He has been A PG since he was in high school. He was the PG at Utah where he holds many records. And has been a top PG since enterting the league as the number 8th over all pick by the Cavs.

Maybe what you consider Millers poor concept of running an offense is actually what his Coach is having him do out there ? Especially since I have never heard any of his coaches say Miller plays out of control. Miller isn't playing with in the team offense. Miller isn't getting the ball to his teammates, and etc Sounds like maybe you should have more issues with all the coaches Miller has played under since all he is doing is setting up their offense. By the way the coach of the Nuggets *George Karl * said Miller is a top 5-7 PG in the league. Don't you think Karl knows good PG's ? Considering he had a 9 time all star in Gary Payton ? You can find tons of quotes from Millers NBA peers that say he is an all star caliber player.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> All he wants to do is drive to the basket for his own shot. .


i for one believe Miller gets defended to much in this room, and people should be more open to trading him. however he does dish around 7 or 8 assists a game. So i'm not sure if you havent been watching him this year, or you just dont like him.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

nbanoitall said:


> i for one believe Miller gets defended to much in this room, and people should be more open to trading him. however he does dish around 7 or 8 assists a game. So i'm not sure if you havent been watching him this year, or you just dont like him.


I disagree I think Miller is underrated in our forum and most are critical of him. I guess if we had to we could always start a poll.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

23AJ said:


> I disagree I think Miller is underrated in our forum and most are critical of him. I guess if we had to we could always start a poll.


im not critical of him, just his role on the team. as for others, well recently id say people have been very pro miller


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

nbanoitall said:


> im not critical of him, just his role on the team. as for others, well recently id say people have been very pro miller


Well I have been trying to show many facets to Miller as a person and a basketball player lately. The guy is a great player, and with out him the Nuggets would suffer. No way Watson/Boykins can handle this team as well as Miller does. So I'm not sure how his role isn't defined and he isn't doing a good job at it.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

> For you to say Miller has no concept of how to run an offense. Is the most untrue statement I have ever heard.


Given his credentials, I would expect a lot more out of him. Here's a list of problems I have with him: 

-Not setting the offense in motion early in the shot clock 

-Not getting the ball enough to the player that is hot 
- a perfect example of this was tonight. In the fourth quarter, on a possession when we needed point bad, Andre was dribbling in the backcourt. Earl Watson pointed at Carmelo and told Andre to get him the ball. Watson had to do it twice for Andre to finally pass it. 

-taking ill advised shots
- he loves that jumpshot in the paint, but doesn't hit it consistently. 

-trying to take the "big shot" all the time 
- it happened against San Antonio in the playoffs, and it continues to happen. 

And my number one gripe about Andre: 

His refusal to push the tempo. Make no mistake about it - we're a fastbreaking team from top to bottom. If we aren't running the ball, we can't win consistently. Andre seems to have little interest in running the break, even though that's his primary job on this team. 



> Maybe what you consider Millers poor concept of running an offense is actually what his Coach is having him do out there ? Especially since I have never heard any of his coaches say Miller plays out of control. Miller isn't playing with in the team offense. Miller isn't getting the ball to his teammates, and etc Sounds like maybe you should have more issues with all the coaches Miller has played under since all he is doing is setting up their offense. By the way the coach of the Nuggets *George Karl * said Miller is a top 5-7 PG in the league. Don't you think Karl knows good PG's ? Considering he had a 9 time all star in Gary Payton ? You can find tons of quotes from Millers NBA peers that say he is an all star caliber player.


From what I can tell, we don't really have a halfcourt offense, and I think CPawfan would agree with me, based on some of the comments I've read of his. Sure, the staff has a hand in this but Andre is the primary ball handler on the team. I just don't see him making sound decisions with the ball and running the offense. 

As for coach Karl's comments, of course he's gonna back his player. Frankly, I could care less about what he says, considering he's been known to use the media to motivate/irritate players. 

I've got all these guys ahead of Andre: 

1. Nash
2. Iverson
3. Billups
4. Arenas
5. Kidd
6. Bibby
7. Parker
8. Cassell
9. Baron Davis

Cassell is disputable, although some other guys like Francis and Ford could be ranked ahead of Andre too. 

Now don't get me wrong. I believe Andre has top 7 ability, but he just isn't consistent enough. As much as I like him, though it doesn't seem that way, I don't care that much for his play this season.

And on a side note: 

If you haven't noticed, I'm not really the rah-rah, team spirit kinda fan. I try to look at things objectively, without getting emotions involved. I do tend to be pessimistic, but I hope that doesn't rub you the wrong way. I'm not trying to attack you personally, though I do realize sometimes that my word choice can be poor. But I'm too staunch a basketball fan to get caught up in the "go-team" kinda stuff, so try not to get that confused with being a jerk. I'm just calling it like I see it, with a touch of pessimism.


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## darth-horax (Nov 21, 2005)

The reason why he doesn't set the half court offense in motion early in the shot clock is becuase we don't have a good half court game. We get most of our shots in the half court set only after one to three passes, which is fast breakish in a half court set. We need to pass, cut and shoot quickly before the D makes all of theri adjustments. That's the Nuggets style...it's not normal, but it's what Karl has them doing at the moment.

Andre Miller is worth every penny we gave him a few years back. He doenst' complain. He gets the job done. He led the league in assists in Cleveland, and could do it again if our players were hitting a higher % of their shots.

Now, I agree that he shoots a little often more my tastes, but when he is on, can you name one PG in the entire league that can outshoot him % wise? AI can shoot deeper, but when Andre is hot, he doesnt' miss. 

I think that Karl has made him a better decision maker when it comes to shooting. You need a PG who can drive and draw in the D so he can dish to slashers and shooters. The problem right now is that we don't have consistent outside shooting, so Dre can't showcase his entire game right now.

He does what it takes for the team to win.

Reading this forum makes me want to buy a Miller jersey!


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> From what I can tell, we don't really have a halfcourt offense, and I think CPawfan would agree with me, based on some of the comments I've read of his. .


you can add me to that list. thats my other knock on Miller other than his shooting. 

its been awhile since ive harped on how crappy we are in the half court. i wish we had some kind of stat on it, to prove it


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## Timmons (May 25, 2005)

I'd like to see these comments if the Nuggets had a shooter like Ray Allen on the team.

Miller would probably be looking a lot better if the opposition didn't suck into the lane every Nugget possession because when you play Denver you DON'T have to respect anyone's outside shot.


This Denver team needs a shooter like Gilbert Arenas to make the team better, but if Denver got a better shooting 2 guard, Miller would look a lot different imo.

However,

I too get very frustrated watching Miller run the half court set and agree with Roddney that Miller does not get the ball to the hot man. Melo and Miller don't seem to mix very well. I don't really see them having a good relationship on the court and I'm not sure why. 

Miller also looks for his own shot a lot of the time, especially in big situtations. And often it's the wrong shot. I hate it when he takes set shots and 3-pointers. He doesn't seem to understand that other guys have that job. 

But I'd say my biggest gripe with Miller is not getting Melo the ball enough, or in the right spots.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

Tobin 73 EIRE said:


> Melo and Miller don't seem to mix very well. I don't really see them having a good relationship on the court and I'm not sure why.
> .


the first year melo was in the league I read in a magazine that they didnt get along at all, and thats why Andre Miller might be on the block. I doubt things have changed between them. I'm not sure if Melo came in and they just didnt click from the beginning, or if something happened.


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## Timmons (May 25, 2005)

nbanoitall said:


> the first year melo was in the league I read in a magazine that they didnt get along at all, and thats why Andre Miller might be on the block. I doubt things have changed between them. I'm not sure if Melo came in and they just didnt click from the beginning, or if something happened.


In the locker room though their lockers are right next to eachother. Well, Melo doesn't have anyone on either side of his locker, but to the right it's Boykins then Miller like 6 feet away.

I think if they truly didn't get along Miller's locker would be over near Elson and Buck on the other side of the room....????


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Good post Rodney.



RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Given his credentials, I would expect a lot more out of him. Here's a list of problems I have with him:
> 
> -Not setting the offense in motion early in the shot clock
> 
> ...


_*I disagree with this statement. Miller doesn't over dribble. Save that criticism for Boykins*_.

*So you are going to judge Miller by one possesion ? Come on thats not being objective at all. Just look two games back when Miller fed the ball to melo almost every possession against Miami. Also during the game last night when Miller was replaced by Watson the Nuggets gave up a 12-0 run. IMO that was because they Nuggets were out of sink with Miller on the bench.*

*He may not always hit his jump shot, but the Nuggets need Miller to take FGA's. To help keep the defense honest. Also when Miller is hot he is usually lights out.*

*I agree with this. However keep in mind Miller is put in to awful situations by his temmates as well. Like the Phoenix game Miller gets the ball passed to him with 3 seconds left in the game.*

*I definitely disagree with this statement. Maybe you can explain it better to help me understand how Miller isn't pushing the ball. He just had a game with 11 assists. And is averaging 7.5 asissts a game. He get's a lot of his assists in the fastbreak.*

*All the Nuggets need for a good half-court offense is a good shooter on the wings. To put all the blame on Miller because we execute poorly is unfair. If Miller had a great shooter on the Nuggets team he would average easily 10 assists this year. How many wide open looks does Miller get guys when he drives and kicks and the Nuggets brick the shot.*

_*IMO Karl has been around so long that when he says something about a player we should listen up. I don't see any reason why Karl needed to say Miller was a top 5-7 PG in the league to help Miller. I Honestly believe thats Karls evaluation of Miller. Something I completely agree with.*_

*In your list players 7-9 are all questionable. They all like Miller have a weakness.*

*Rodney I don't have any issues with you. I only agree to disagree with you in regard to Miller. Also I know many people like you that are not big in to cheering. Not a problem at all. Besides a little pessimism helps balance out the optimism in here. And it's obvious which way I roll in.*


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## Timmons (May 25, 2005)

/\ 23AJ

I think Karl could be giving his honest assessement, but he also could be trying to motivate. He does do that through the media.

Even more Karl, if the Nuggets are listening to deals involving Miller, may fudge how good Miller is to keep his trade value up and show he's not slipped.

Who knows? Karl more than likely was talking about how he feels MIller is actually rated. Karl is a pretty honest guy.

But we'll soon find out...it's Dec. 14th!


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Tobin 73 EIRE said:


> /\ 23AJ
> 
> I think Karl could be giving his honest assessement, but he also could be trying to motivate. He does do that through the media.
> 
> ...


I understand that coaches/players say things to the media all the time. However IMO Miller is a great PG so It's not a far fetch for Karl to have that opinion of Miller.

If Miller gets traded I will be very unhappy. And have to follow another NBA team this season.

What did you think of Watson last night ? You think he can run the Nuggets team ?


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## Timmons (May 25, 2005)

23AJ said:


> What did you think of Watson last night ? You think he can run the Nuggets team ?


No!

I think Miller needs to push the tempo more. He often walks the ball upcourt and when Watson is out there he pushes the ball, but Watson needs to go to a team that can give him the minutes he needs to prove he's a starter...Maybe Atlanta...or Cleveland...

I like Miller, but some night I can't stand him. And what's wrong with his free throw shooting?? Guy is killing himself. I think Miller will stay here, but he needs to keep working...And somebody needs to get this team on the same page the Suns are on...That team has the mental mindset that they must run to win and if/when they do it they win.

Denver can too, but they don't. It's not all Miller's fault at all, but he doesn't seem to buy into it yet...


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Tobin 73 EIRE said:


> No!
> 
> I think Miller needs to push the tempo more. He often walks the ball upcourt and when Watson is out there he pushes the ball, but Watson needs to go to a team that can give him the minutes he needs to prove he's a starter...Maybe Atlanta...or Cleveland...
> 
> ...


Alright I keep hearing the same criticsim ring from you tobin, cpawfan, rodney, nbanoitall. However I don't see it. When isn't miller pushing the ball ? Also keep in mind just because the Nuggets don't score fastbreak points doesn't mean Miller isn't pushing the ball. Sometimes teams know how to play transition defense.

Millers free throw shooting has been sub-par this season. However I think he will find his stroke, and get back on track. Melo is shooting 81 percent this season. That guy is good! :clap: 

I don't agree Miller is not buying in to the teams concept. If that was the case there is no doubt Karl would bench him. Comments like Miller not buying in to the system is pure speculation. And I don't understand where those questions derive from.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

The question since the start of last season is what offense are the Nuggets running. After Karl was hired, he finally had a well spaced and fluid offense and Dre was doing a very good job of pushing the ball and making good passing decisions*. So far this season, it appears that this has become a problem again. Give me the _good_ Dre from the end of last season and I'm happy, otherwise, I have no problem trading him.



*I have a huge problem when people want to equate APG with passing and running an offense. Marbury is the clasic example of this problem. Just because he can average 8 APG for a season doesn't mean he runs a good offense. IMHO, Dre should be averaging 12+ APG if he played the PG position Karl wanted him to.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> The question since the start of last season is what offense are the Nuggets running. After Karl was hired, he finally had a well spaced and fluid offense and Dre was doing a very good job of pushing the ball and making good passing decisions*. So far this season, it appears that this has become a problem again. Give me the _good_ Dre from the end of last season and I'm happy, otherwise, I have no problem trading him.
> 
> 
> 
> *I have a huge problem when people want to equate APG with passing and running an offense. Marbury is the clasic example of this problem. Just because he can average 8 APG for a season doesn't mean he runs a good offense. IMHO, Dre should be averaging 12+ APG if he played the PG position Karl wanted him to.


Keep in mind when discussing Miller. That his over all value is very important to Karl/Nuggets. Karl has Miller play defense against the other teams SG. And by default plays the SG position for the Nuggets. No this doesn't happen all the time, but enough for it to matter when judging Miller. If anything it seems to me that Karl is still figuring out the Nuggets starting lineup. In the mean time Miller does everything the coach asks him at point guard and shooting guard when Boykins or Watson is out there on the floor with him.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

More on Miller from coach Karl.



> Nuggets point guard Andre Miller has averaged 16.3 points and 9.2 assists the past nine games. "Andre Miller over the last seven, eight, nine games has been pretty incredible for us," Karl said before the game. "He's leading our team. . . . Andre's courtsmanship has been as good as Carmelo's scoring."


http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nba/article/0,2777,DRMN_23922_4319868,00.html


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