# Tracy Mcgrady and the playoffs?



## IV

We constantly debate Kobe/Tmac. While this is a neverending arguement, I wonder what McGrady supporters will think of my recents thoughts about last years playoff series against the Charlotte Hornets. 
Now Tmac receives much credit for leading his team to the playoffs. I do commend him for that. However, he has not been able to advance. I knock him for that, and here's where the disagreements start. 
After that series, Tracy publicly criticized his teammate for not being as good as Baron Davis's teammates. 
I feel that was an excuse for his failure instead of the reason for his failure. The reason for his failure has to do with his inability to make big plays in big games. He doesnt step up and lead his team when they need him most. It is an excuse because his team finished in the upper half of the playoff brackets in the Eastern conference. Meaning his team was in the top four, while his opponent was placed record wise 5-8. Baron Davis is a fantastic player but he is no Tmac. With that said, how is it that Baron Davis is able to lead his team to victory(minus Jamal Mashburn) over the Orlando Magic led by Tracy McGrady who had a team record that year that was better than the Charlotte Hornets? If the Magic players minus Tmac are not as good as the Hornets minus Baron why is it that the Magic had a better record over 82 games than the Magic. Remember that Jamal Mashburn did play the majority of the year and the Hornets still didnt have a better record than Tmac and the sorry Magic. 

You see this was all an excuse for his failure not the reason why the Magic lost. How else would you explain this?
Please enlighten me.


----------



## rynobot

This was a great series to watch!! T-Mac just doesn't have that "want it" instinct that Jordan, Kobe and even LaBron has.


----------



## Arclite

How far do you expect to go into the playoffs when your team's second best player shoots 37% from the floor and scores 8.4ppg in the playoffs?

Aside from McGrady and Davis, you're putting Andrew DeClerq, Horace Grant and Monty Williams against PJ Brown, Elden Campell (two excellent frontline players with TONS of playoff experience) and an emerging Jamaal Magloire.

Don't slam McGrady so hard and praise Kobe so much, because it makes it look like you feel very threatened by McGrady. I agree that his comments about his teammates were out of line (some things you just don't say in public), but the fact remains that Darrell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, and Mike Miller as your main guys with NO INSIDE PRESENCE is probably the worst team in the NBA, but with McGrady this team went in as a #4 seed.

_Edit:_ I'm not trying to dog Kobe, because in reality, aside from stats, when you really watch them, Kobe just works harder. That and the fact that he has rings (Shaq or not) gives him an edge over T-Mac in my book.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> How far do you expect to go into the playoffs when your team's second best player shoots 37% from the floor and scores 8.4ppg in the playoffs?
> 
> Aside from McGrady and Davis, you're putting Andrew DeClerq, Horace Grant and Monty Williams against PJ Brown, Elden Campell (two excellent frontline players with TONS of playoff experience) and an emerging Jamaal Magloire.
> 
> Don't slam McGrady so hard and praise Kobe so much, because it makes it look like you feel very threatened by McGrady. I agree that his comments about his teammates were out of line (some things you just don't say in public), but the fact remains that Darrell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, and Mike Miller as your main guys with NO INSIDE PLAYERS is probably the worst team in the NBA, but with McGrady this team went in as a #4 seed.


Maybe I should not have opened up with the Kobe/Tmac neverending debate line.
This thread has nothing to do with Kobe, try and keep him out of this conversation.
Just focus on Tmac and his team that was finished higher than the Hornets but Tmac says the Hornets are a better team than the Magic
There is a such thing that goes hand in hand with leadership refered to as lifting the spirit of your teammates, making them play at a higher level. Tmac doesnt have that. 
And what's with the only Tmac and Davis line? Did you forget about Miller, Hudson, Garrity, and Armstrong? Any team that finishes 4th in its conference it not a poor team, and if that team was solely carried by one man, why wasnt he able to carry it for an addition 3 wins?


----------



## Arclite

I didn't forget about Hudson, Garrity and Armstrong. Obviously I didn't forget about Miller, because he was the player I was talking about in my opening sentence.

I also didn't mention David Wesley, Lee Nailon or even Lynch's defensive presence. It is obvious (to me anyways) that Baron Davis had a far superior supporting cast than Tracy McGrady last year. I heartily disagree with McGrady dogging his teammates in public, but they didn't step up in crunch time and he let them and the world know how he felt about it.

McGrady did well (not excellent) in the playoffs - his teammates played horribly. When your second leading scorer averages half as many points in the playoffs as he does in the regular season and you have no inside presence, I don't care what your record is -- you aren't going to beat a defensively tough, playoff savvy team with solid starters at every position.

Seeing what happens this year, should Hill be healthy come playoff time, will tell a lot about the character, will, and toughness of T-Mac.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> We constantly debate Kobe/Tmac. While this is a neverending arguement, I wonder what McGrady supporters will think of my recents thoughts about last years playoff series against the Charlotte Hornets.
> Now Tmac receives much credit for leading his team to the playoffs. I do commend him for that. However, he has not been able to advance. I knock him for that, and here's where the disagreements start.
> After that series, Tracy publicly criticized his teammate for not being as good as Baron Davis's teammates.
> I feel that was an excuse for his failure instead of the reason for his failure. The reason for his failure has to do with his inability to make big plays in big games. He doesnt step up and lead his team when they need him most. It is an excuse because his team finished in the upper half of the playoff brackets in the Eastern conference. Meaning his team was in the top four, while his opponent was placed record wise 5-8. Baron Davis is a fantastic player but he is no Tmac. With that said, how is it that Baron Davis is able to lead his team to victory(minus Jamal Mashburn) over the Orlando Magic led by Tracy McGrady who had a team record that year that was better than the Charlotte Hornets? If the Magic players minus Tmac are not as good as the Hornets minus Baron why is it that the Magic had a better record over 82 games than the Magic. Remember that Jamal Mashburn did play the majority of the year and the Hornets still didnt have a better record than Tmac and the sorry Magic.
> 
> You see this was all an excuse for his failure not the reason why the Magic lost. How else would you explain this?
> Please enlighten me.


Your a Kobe lover, so this is expected.

Tmac had a very injured back, almost to the point he couldnt walk at times, yet put up incredible stats. Now we are talking about a team that was missing Grant Hill.. Mike Miller could barely even play in the playoffs with an ankle injury and was completely ineffective.

The guy carried the team himself all year, at some point the other guys have to step-up.. Orlando is still over .500 this season, and that is with Grant Hill missing like 20% of the games and playing at much less than 100%, with Orlando's best big men gone (Horace Grant and Steven Hunter), with Mike Miller only showing up every other game, and with Darrel Armstrong and Pat Garrity shooting like crap all season.

You can say what you want about Tmac, but just look at Kobe's incredible success with the Lakers with the Diesel... now Kobe knows how Tmac has felt the last three seasons.


----------



## ChiBron

Is somebody insecure or what? T-mac has proven he can carry a bunch of nobody's to the playoffs. Kobe has NOT, live with it, and move on.


----------



## IV

It's just NBA talk. There are no insecurities. Seriously man, do you think I lose sleep over you thinking Tmac is so great because he made it to the playoffs. I could care less. The point of the thread is to get an understanding of how his teammates not as good as the Baron Davis's teammates in Charlotte. 
I think you are showing your insecurities by bringing up Kobe any time I mention Tmac. Kobe has nothing to do with this conversation. The remarks that you have made about him not going to the playoffs are bogus and you know it. you haven't all of a sudden got amnesia. His team won the last three championships. You have to make it to the playoffs to do so.

Let's get back on topic. In fact, from Sovereignz points I understand what happened in Orlando. It wasn't that Tmac's teammates couldn't matchup with Charlotte. It was the Magic as a whole were injured. Tmac's back injury supposedly hurt the team, although it may have been a good injury because he was able to produce better numbers while injured. Mike Millers ankle kept him from being able to perform. The rest of the guys were just role players and you cant expect too much from them. They lost and the fact that his teammates were not good enough is bull.


----------



## 33

I feel that TMac was frustrated with losing in the 1st round to years in a row. He said he belived that that the Hornets were an all around better team then his, which is true. IV, I know you are a firm believer in the saying, "It's not how you start, it's how you finish", you have to be you are a Faker fan. It's hard to lead a team by yourself to the finals. Iverson was the first to do it in who knows how many years. Once your boy, and you know who I am reffering to, is without that 330+ pound security blanket, then you will understand. :upset:


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> I feel that TMac was frustrated with losing in the 1st round to years in a row. He said he belived that that the Hornets were an all around better team then his, which is true.


That's not what he said. He said that Baron's supporting cast is better than his and that is not true. If you think logically Tmac's team had a better winning percentage than the Hornets, and Tmac is a better player than Baron Davis, so how it is that the Hornets are a better team than the Magic? Tmac got out played by Davis. He should have took responsiblity for his team lose.



> IV, I know you are a firm believer in the saying, "It's not how you start, it's how you finish", you have to be you are a Faker fan. It's hard to lead a team by yourself to the finals. Iverson was the first to do it in who knows how many years. Once your boy, and you know who I am reffering to, is without that 330+ pound security blanket, then you will understand.


Why talk around the point of this thread? I never said Tmac didnt lead his team to the playoffs, and never said he had to make it to the final to gain my respect. He'll get my respect when he can lose admirably, by giving credit where credit is due. 

Allen Iverson didnt lead his team to the finals all by himself. Where were you in 2001. 
Larry Brown was the coach of the year. 
Deke Mutumbo was the Defensive player of the year.
Aaron Mckie was the 6th man of the year.
They went to the finals as a team!!!!!!!!!!

*Postscript*
have you ever noticed that when a person is knocking Tmac they use facts and when a person is knocking Kobe they speculate?


----------



## Mulk

The fact remains that the Hornets were most probably the worst possible team the Magic could face because of their huge frontline. 

Then you have the injuries to Hill, Miller who are the only real offensive threats apart from T-mac. 

Armstrong shoots real bad the whole series and is worn down after playing too many mins during regular season. 

Add all this to the fact that T-Mac had a bad back, did you see him lying on the floor getting treatment and grimacing with obvious pain on several possesions?

The bottom line is that T-mac does not crumble in the playoffs, he just gets no help, its difficult for the Magic to win many games in a row even during the regular season as it is just him on his own, so to ask him to do this in the playoffs is extremely difficult


----------



## 33

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> That's not what he said. He said that Baron's supporting cast is better than his and that is not true. If you think logically Tmac's team had a better winning percentage than the Hornets, and Tmac is a better player than Baron Davis, so how it is that the Hornets are a better team than the Magic? Tmac got out played by Davis. He should have took responsiblity for his team lose.
> 
> 
> 
> Why talk around the point of this thread? I never said Tmac didnt lead his team to the playoffs, and never said he had to make it to the final to gain my respect. He'll get my respect when he can lose admirably, by giving credit where credit is due.
> 
> Larry Brown was the coach of the year.
> Deke Mutumbo was the Defensive player of the year.
> Aaron Mckie was the 6th man of the year.
> They went to the finals as a team!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> *Postscript*
> have you ever noticed that when a person is knocking Tmac they use facts and when a person is knocking Kobe they speculate?



Allen Iverson didnt lead his team to the finals all by himself. Where were you in 2001. 



This just proves my point even more. The Hornets had something that the Magic hasn't had since Shaq, a center. Campbell is a decent center too


----------



## MightyReds2020

Magic has to improve the players around T-Mac, that's no secret, especially comes to big-man. If Hill can stay healthy throughout the course of one long season and play with intensity, then a couple of Najera-type frontcourt players will make-do, else Magic will be the latest version of Minnesota Timberwolves -- Always good to be in the playoffs but not good enough to get past the first-round.


----------



## c_dog

I'm personally very pleased with T-Mac's success. So what if he hasn't passed the first round of the playoffs? Without him, the Magic would be the worst team in the league. Being able to lead the worst team in the league in the playoffs is a success by itself. I would rather see him lose to a strong team(like hornets) in the playoffs than him not make the playoffs at all*cough, cough*shaqless lakers*cough*.

If you think Magic's supporting cast is anything as good as Hornet's, then you obviously haven't watched them play that much. Mike Miller is great, but last year he was just a sophmore, so his experience is limited. Grant Hill was injured, and Horace Grant is kind of old. Pat Garrity can shoot, but he's soft and has no defense. Armstrong is pretty good, but at best decent. Magic also had no bench.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> I would rather see him lose to a strong team(like hornets) in the playoffs than him not make the playoffs at all*cough, cough*shaqless lakers*cough*.


What's with this Shaqless lakers? There is no such thing as the shaqless lakers, if you haven't noticed Shaq is a member of that team and they are still losing. 



> If you think Magic's supporting cast is anything as good as Hornet's, then you obviously haven't watched them play that much. Mike Miller is great, but last year he was just a sophmore, so his experience is limited. Grant Hill was injured, and Horace Grant is kind of old. Pat Garrity can shoot, but he's soft and has no defense. Armstrong is pretty good, but at best decent. Magic also had no bench.


With all this said you still miss the point. Logically, Mathematically Tmac made an excuse for losing, it wasnt a reason.


----------



## TheRifleman

BTW, just to set the record straight, the Hornets had the higher seeding, NOT the Magic, which is why game #1 was played in Charlotte.


----------



## IV

both teams went 44-38. 
that would make them an equal matchup only the Hornets played without arguebly, at that time, its best players Jamal Mashburn.
Advantage Magic.


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> both teams went 44-38.
> that would make them an equal matchup only the Hornets played without arguebly, at that time, its best players Jamal Mashburn.
> Advantage Magic.


The Magic played without home court advantage, with an injured Mike Miller (who had been out for 3 weeks previous to the playoffs, and they also had TMac with a bad back, not to mention that Garrity is NO match up with PJ Brown, as you must have seen from last night's game that the Lakers had against the Hornets.


----------



## c_dog

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> What's with this Shaqless lakers? There is no such thing as the shaqless lakers, if you haven't noticed Shaq is a member of that team and they are still losing.
> 
> 
> With all this said you still miss the point. Logically, Mathematically Tmac made an excuse for losing, it wasnt a reason.


What I meant was, at least he was able to take Magic into the playoffs with a good record, unlike Kobe who went 3-9 or something without Shaq. I think the Lakers will be back, eventually, now that Shaq is back. They beat the Mavs, afterall, proving that they are still tops. They just have to get their game together. Besides, they've been around .500 with Shaq, which is still a lot better than how they were doing without him.

And T-Mac's team was simply outplayed by Hornets. What do you mean it wasn't a reason? Hornets were just too good, and the Magic just simply didn't have anybody who could stop them.


----------



## SportsGuru5

_both teams went 44-38. 
that would make them an equal matchup only the Hornets played without arguebly, at that time, its best players Jamal Mashburn.
Advantage Magic._

Regular season basketball means very little in this league. To call this an even matchup is an indication that you can't evaluate talent.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>SportsGuru5</b>!
> Regular season basketball means very little in this league. To call this an even matchup is an indication that you can't evaluate talent.


Think about what you just said.
Postseason performances matter most. And what has he done in the playoffs. He won two games in two years.
It's exactly the reason why I show Tracy no love. 

Good point. 
:laugh:


----------



## c_dog

Doesn't matter if he hasn't been past the first round. So what if Magic lost? It's his performance that counts, and he can really put up solid numbers. You can't expect a one man team to beat a high caliber team like the Hornets.


----------



## IV

high caliber? both teams finished with the same record and Charlotte played without arguably there best player. 
But you're right I dont except much from Tracy after all it was the playoffs.

bottom line Tmac got dogged by Baron Davis.


----------



## hogey11

Have you ever "enlightened" yourself to the fact that maybe, just maybe, the hornets matched up better against the Magic than the 75% other teams in the league that consistently lost to them? 

Charlotte has not one, but two legitimate centers in Elden Campbell and Jamaal Magloire. They also had a great tandem of offense and defense at the power forward position with PJ Brown and Lee Nailon. George Lynch is an excellent defender, David Wesley will consistently hit the open shot, and Baron Davis is Baron Davis. I'm not completely sure about this, but i also believe that they had Eddie Robinson coming off the bench behind Lynch, not a horrible substitution (he had potential back then )

Orlando started DeClerq, who with the post up skills of Campbell, had 3 fouls in the first 5 minutes of every game. Pat Garrity is NOT going to be effective on the defensive glass, especially against a great offensive rebounder like PJ Brown. If Garrity isnt hitting higher than 40% from behind the arc (which he wasnt), he is useless. utterly, completely useless. Mike Miller, as stated before, was not at 100 percent and didnt even play all of the games. Tmac was injured, put up some huge stats all around. Darrell Armstrong plays heady, but as seen tonite, has NO defense. Troy Hudson is a spark off the bench. he played fairly well from my recollection. Horace Grant gave them some leadership and toughness inside.

Flat out: Orlando was outplayed against Charlotte. Charlotte is one of the few teams in the league who can hang with the big boys (Shaq, Mourning, etc.) because they have such a huge lineup of guys who can play. Orlando is the exact opposite. If you will, Charlotte was the antibody to Orlando's disease. They had all the pieces in place to beat Orlando. Big inside players to take advantage of Orlando's weakness inside, a defensive SF to try to contain Tmac in Lynch, and a good shooting backcourt that is trumped by Baron Davis.

One reason that i think that Charlotte did not have a great record is the situation of the team and the city. Call it an excuse if you want, if your fans arent supporting the organization and your owner is afraid to even show up in the city, you have a problem, and i think it affects your team more than you think. Charlotte was a much better team than they let on, and they showed that by going deep into the playoffs, without Mashburn.

The fact of the matter is:
Tmac played _HURT_! i dont care what excuse you come up with, Tmac looked like he was gonna die out there last year.

The Orlando supporting cast was not playing well. We witnessed the same phenomenon with the lakers early this season. Even with TWO superstars, without the role players playing well, they cannot win games. its just that simple. Lakers Fans are blaming everybody but Kobe and Shaq for their bad start. If you guys are going to do that, then allow Tmac to do the same. Again, someone put out some stats. when your 2nd best player is averaging 8.4 points and 34% shooting, you have problems. you cannot expect to win a playoffs series, especially the toughest bracket available in the first round (seeds 4-5), if your team is not playing well together.

Finally, the Hornets are a better team than their record showed. They also matched up nearly perfectly against the Magic. If you asked me, the Magic were doomed from the beginning.


----------



## AirGrady

Don't you see, he is threatened.

I don't care what you say. I can tell by what you said, and how everyone put up a great counter argument, and you still try to use phrases like "Davis dogged TMAC" to hang into the conversation. It's a sad day when people get so insecure that they have to make threads like this to hold on to the little bit of EGO they have had with their favorite player.

#1 Example: <strike>beautifulkobe. She has no reason to dislike Tracy. I bet she is a 11 year old girl who has Kobe posters all over the wall and doesn't know a single thing outside of that player like my little sister who's like's Iverson. I bet she didn't know who McGrady was in 2000 and now that he has arguable lapped Kobe in the skill department, she feels threatened.</strike>

<strike>Just ignore these fans. They aren't true fans of the game or their team in my opinion. They can make claims about "I'm just talking about ball", but I can see through the BS and know the deal.</strike>

Once again, do not put down other posters. This is not allowed. And actually makes you look bad. I sent you a pm. This is a warning. Contined use of posting in this manner will not be tolerated any further!! 

This is why:

*Harassment occurs when a member insults, attacks, and/or denigrates another member at any time. For instance, the use of terms such as "idiot," "moron," "stupid," and like terms constitutes harassment. Harassment not only includes individuals but also can apply to insults against teams, players, and groups of BasketballBoards.net members. Repeated critical and sharply negative posts toward a team forum, team forum members, and/or a team's fan base as a whole can also constitute harassment.*

truebluefan


----------



## tenkev

I agree with everything hogey said.


----------



## IV

dayum! can't a guy have an opinion on here. contrary to popular believe Tracy's team was not as unmatched as you all would like to believe. He just got outplayed by Davis who had back to back triple doubles. Blame the team all you like, I just dont understand how you can expect your teammates to play better when you downing them. Some leader!
maybe when you all and Tmac understand that there is no room for that in a leadership role, he'll be able to get out of the first round.


----------



## 33

The regular season and the playoffs are to different seasons. In the playoffs, it's all about match-ups and the Magic had no front court players to match up with the Hornets. With Davis picking up the slack of Mashburn, the Magic were no match.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> The regular season and the playoffs are to different seasons. In the playoffs, it's all about match-ups and the Magic had no front court players to match up with the Hornets. With Davis picking up the slack of Mashburn, the Magic were no match.


If this was true the Kings should have been able to beat the Lakers last year. Sometimes you need your best players to lift the play of the rest of the team. Tmac is young and his learning curve has been a slow one, maybe in time he'll be able to do this. He just isnt ready.


----------



## AirGrady

Yeah, it shows how much Kobe can lead and make his teammates better: 3-9 LOL


----------



## rynobot

> Originally posted by <b>AirGrady</b>!
> Yeah, it shows how much Kobe can lead and make his teammates better: 3-9 LOL


You take away Shaq from the Lakers you see how bad Kobe's surrounding cast is alot worst then T-Mac's.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>AirGrady</b>!
> Yeah, it shows how much Kobe can lead and make his teammates better: 3-9 LOL


you know what pains you the most.


----------



## 33

What do you mean, the Kings and Lakers were evenly matched. Both had an inside presence (Shaq, Webber) and an outside presence ( Kobe, Pedja). Both teams could pass and shoot well. That was the Lakers' best matchup since Portland in 2000. The Magic simply did not match up well against any team with a big front court


----------



## IV

Stop pretending.
The kings are deep 1-12. LA is a two man team.



> Shaq / Webber, Kobe/ Peja


:laugh:


----------



## Mulk

IV, how can you not realise the Magic had pretty much no chance against the hornets? even if the magic were at full strenght they would have struggled with the hornets' frontcourt. 

Then when you add the injuries to hill who couldnt play, miller who missed last few weeks of season and only played because it was the playoffs, armstrong who was basically out of gas (just see why magic signed Vaughn) and then garrity not hitting 3's and getting abused defensively you begin to see why it was impossible.

T-Mac had a bad back, but still put up BETTER stats than his impressive stats in the regular season. It isn't as if his numbers go down. It was the same in the playoffs before (a great series against the Bucks). T-Mac raises his game a few notches but one man cannot beat a team on his own over a whole series especially a team which strength is the magic's weakness. 

Plz put up some argument that doesnt just consist of T-Mac cant lead or something similar.

PS T-Mac's comments were maybe out of line but maybe what he was trying to get the rest of the players to respond, remember, these comments were made just after defeat so he is obviously speaking emotionally. You are blowing these comments up way too much, he didnt rip into them, just said baron davies had a better suppoorting cast when asked why baron davies was winning the series against T-Mac. The comments that shaq and kobe have said over the FIRST MONTH of the season are far worse in my opinion but once again aren't anything to cry about


----------



## c_dog

The depth of the Kings compared to the Lakers is like the depth of the Hornets compared to the Magic. Well, except Lakers have Shaq and Kobe, while T-Mac has nobody.

Diss T-Mac all you want. And T-Mac will get his share of championships soon enough, you just watch. Lakers era is over.


----------



## hogey11

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> Stop pretending.
> The kings are deep 1-12. LA is a two man team.
> 
> 
> :laugh:


I like how IV now ignores my posts.....



PS this is a goad on my part to come up with something intelligent to counter my earlier post. you dont seem to have anything. bring it on!

hahaha just playing man.....


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>hogey11</b>!
> 
> 
> I like how IV now ignores my posts.....
> 
> 
> 
> PS this is a goad on my part to come up with something intelligent to counter my earlier post. you dont seem to have anything. bring it on!
> 
> hahaha just playing man.....


It was really just to much to read, and I'm sure we'll be going throught the motions making the same points back and forth. 

the TMAC fan argument seems like one style cannot compete with another. Like a team full of big guys playing a team full of little guys on the blacktop. Your money would be on the big guys because they are strongs and more physical therefore you think the little guys are no match. My money would be on the Little guys. If I have seen them play, they have there own style of ball, and they are too quick, fast, and smart to lose. See It's not always about the matchups. Both teams posted the same record and while team was hurt not injured the other was injured without its best player Mashburn. They matchup better than Tmac fan realizes.


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> It was really just to much to read, and I'm sure we'll be going throught the motions making the same points back and forth.
> 
> the TMAC fan argument seems like one style cannot compete with another. Like a team full of big guys playing a team full of little guys on the blacktop. Your money would be on the big guys because they are strongs and more physical therefore you think the little guys are no match. My money would be on the Little guys. If I have seen them play, they have there own style of ball, and they are too quick, fast, and smart to lose. See It's not always about the matchups. <b> Both teams posted the same record and while team was hurt not injured the other was injured without its best player Mashburn. </b><u> They matchup better than Tmac fan realizes. </u>


And the Magic were ALSO without their arguably best player, Grant Hill. AND Mike Miller had just been out for 3 weeks prior to the playoffs and was hobbling all over the court in that series.

They don't match up, as Elden Campbell, George Lynch, and the great young Magloire are too much for the Magic, maybe too much for even the Lakers, who also are much bigger and better than the Magic.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> And the Magic were ALSO without their arguably best player, Grant Hill. AND Mike Miller had just been out for 3 weeks prior to the playoffs and was hobbling all over the court in that series.


hill got injured back in november. the magic probably would have finished with the number one seed had he played, but he didn't. There record was not indicative of their play with Hill. The hornets however played almost the whole season with Mashburn getting injured in the final week of the season. Their record was indicative of the play with Mash. 



> They don't match up, as Elden Campbell, George Lynch, and the great young Magloire are too much for the Magic, maybe too much for even the Lakers, who also are much bigger and better than the Magic.


The great young magloire. You know you need to stop.
the bigger team doesnt always have to win. whatever happened to heart, skill, speed, smarts those factors do come into play in sports. He can use size as an excuse whenever he loses, if its alright with you'll and it alright with him. have fun with it.


----------



## Mulk

IV, how about you argue a point rather than just saying the Magic are just as good as the Hornets?

How is one player supposed to beat a whole team? Minus Mash if you wanna bring that in?


----------



## IV

Tmac is not supposed to beat the hornet all by himself. If anything he should do his part and except the outcome without pointing fingers.

1. it was wrong to call his teammate out for not being as good as Davis's teammates especially during the series, can't you see how discouraging that is. 

2. I dont agree that his team is not as good as the Hornets. They both finished with the same record. Games were close in that series, Tmac just sold out in the clutch. 

Look Tmac fan, I know its hard to phathom the difference between Tmac and a winner because you are "Tmac fan", just know that Tracy has a lot to learn about leadership, as far as how to motivate your teammates to play better, and he has got to lead by example at the end of games like Baron Davis did.


----------



## c_dog

Bah, if you still can't see why Hornets have a better cast, then I can not help you. Get it through your head already. We've already pointed out why Hornets is a better team but you're just not listening to us.


----------



## AirGrady

And Kobe can? LOL

Hitting teammates, calling out teammates about how their injuries to their body might not be 'that bad', being exiled by his teammates when he first became a Laker, looking like he's about to cry when fans boo him. LOL @ 3-9 start. Great Leadership Scottie Bryant!


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> Bah, if you still can't see why Hornets have a better cast, then I can not help you. Get it through your head already. We've already pointed out why Hornets is a better team but you're just not listening to us.


I'm not looking for your help, and I don't buy your excuses for TMac's failure.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>AirGrady</b>!
> And Kobe can? LOL


lead a team? Yep. Just to mention 2 and I could mention over 10x's.
Game 4 of the second championship with Shaq out of the game Kobe single handedly took over the game and won it in OT.
Just a week or two ago, you saw Kobe single handly beat the Mavs. So yeah, the leadership qualities are there.



> Hitting teammates, calling out teammates about how their injuries to their body might not be 'that bad', being exiled by his teammates when he first became a Laker, looking like he's about to cry when fans boo him. LOL @ 3-9 start. Great Leadership Scottie Bryant!


I thought Tmac fan got over the 3-9 start after the lakers have since been terrible. 3-9 over 12 games. 6-6 over the next 12 games with Shaq. Shaq could only win 3 more games than Kobe over 12 games and he had Kobe to help him. 3-9 isn't much of a finger pointer.


----------



## AirGrady

LOL Kobe doesn't have a drop of leadership ability in him at all.

You bring up a game where the Lakers were down over 28 points entering the 4th and you talk about what he did. LOL, what about Shaq shooting a very high percentage and grabbing over 10 boards, and Kobe finally shows up to play when the Mavericks obviously forgot how to. If Shaq wouldn't have played in the first place, the Lakers could have been down over 40.

Kobe couldn't lead a horse to water. They might not even make the playoffs WITH SHAQ. If they miss the playoffs, while having SHAQ still in dominate form, both of their careers with have that etched in their rememberance. You have to Top 5 players and can't make the playoffs...LOL @ Kobe's leadership ability! LOLOLOL

T - Mac came onto the Magic in 2000 with no past except for his amatuer years of leading a team as the 1st option, (before averaging 15 points behind Carter), HIll goes down for the season, and he's placed with a lineup even worser and inexperienced than the current Lakers Shaqless and McGrady leads them into the 7th seed and at one time had their record at 41-34.

LOL @ Kobe even being on T - Mac's level as a leader. 

kObe O=Overrated.


----------



## rynobot

You are only as good as the players around you.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>AirGrady</b>!
> LOL Kobe doesn't have a drop of leadership ability in him at all.


He's got three rings to prove otherwise. And many big game performance in each of those championship runs to shut your pie hole.



> You bring up a game where the Lakers were down over 28 points entering the 4th and you talk about what he did. LOL, what about Shaq shooting a very high percentage and grabbing over 10 boards, and Kobe finally shows up to play when the Mavericks obviously forgot how to. If Shaq wouldn't have played in the first place, the Lakers could have been down over 40.


Kobe did his thing and all you can come up with is this.
:stupid:


> Kobe couldn't lead a horse to water. They might not even make the playoffs WITH SHAQ. If they miss the playoffs, while having SHAQ still in dominate form, both of their careers with have that etched in their rememberance. You have to Top 5 players and can't make the playoffs...LOL @ Kobe's leadership ability! LOLOLOL


This alone show how bias your points are. He wins its because of Shaq, and when he loses its his fault. So Shaq doesnt take any heat for not making it to the playoffs. Boy is this trival, they're going to make the playoffs.



> LOL @ Kobe even being on T - Mac's level as a leader.
> 
> kObe O=Overrated.


as long as the people who vote for all NBA teams offensive and defensive continue to vote for Kobe. You can laugh all you want.


----------



## AirGrady

ROFLMAO!!

now laker fans think they can use that excuse? 1 year ago, Kobe was GOD and won games by himself when Shaq sat or fouled out. Now when they are losing: "Fisher stinks! Trade Fox! Lebron, here we come because Mitch is idiot." LOLOLOL!!!!!!

How about Kobe! "Best All-Around Player in the League." HAHAHA, don't make me laugh. 3-9! 3-9!

Kobe is shooting the same percentage *with Shaq* that TMAC shot the entire last season with no tru 2nd option help, being the Magic's top rebounder and defensive player, an playing most of the season with a bum back. 

LOL @ Kobe being top 2 guard in the league.

If the Lakers don't make the playoffs while have 2 top 5 players, and Kobe having shaq //// = there is no way Role players should take the blame. 

If McGrady had a guy who was putting up 24/10 and could score inside at will then I would blame TMAC for not pushing his team farther in the playoffs even with the bad back. But KOBE = Overrated. I've seen enough to see Pippen in him. LOL! 3-9

P.S., I'm only sounding like this because this is how beautifulkobe and some laker fans use to express there post. LOL @ beautifulkobe being a true fan!


----------



## rynobot

You are only as good as the players around you.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>AirGrady</b>!
> ROFLMAO!!
> 
> now laker fans think they can use that excuse? 1 year ago, Kobe was GOD and won games by himself when Shaq sat or fouled out. Now when they are losing: "Fisher stinks! Trade Fox! Lebron, here we come because Mitch is idiot." LOLOLOL!!!!!!
> 
> How about Kobe! "Best All-Around Player in the League." HAHAHA, don't make me laugh. 3-9! 3-9!
> 
> Kobe is shooting the same percentage *with Shaq* that TMAC shot the entire last season with no tru 2nd option help, being the Magic's top rebounder and defensive player, an playing most of the season with a bum back.
> 
> LOL @ Kobe being top 2 guard in the league.
> 
> If the Lakers don't make the playoffs while have 2 top 5 players, and Kobe having shaq //// = there is no way Role players should take the blame.
> 
> If McGrady had a guy who was putting up 24/10 and could score inside at will then I would blame TMAC for not pushing his team farther in the playoffs even with the bad back. But KOBE = Overrated. I've seen enough to see Pippen in him. LOL! 3-9
> 
> P.S., I'm only sounding like this because this is how beautifulkobe and some laker fans use to express there post. LOL @ beautifulkobe being a true fan!


:stupid:

No excuses man. Kobe is not Pippen, if anything people who hate Kobe because the media named him the next MJ will say this just out of spite. That's ridiculous. 3-9, 3-9........ 6-6, 6-6..........this is dead man:| 
you hit the nail on the head at the end of your post. Your being obnoxious because other have been that way. Chill out man, we know the lakers stink and we also know that has nothing to do with Shaq or Kobe. You know this. Lets stop kidding ourselves.


----------



## AirGrady

Kobe Griffey Jr.! ROFLMAO!

"He's got three rings to prove otherwise. And many big game performance in each of those championship runs to shut your pie hole"

So does Pippen but he has 6! The sad thing is that Kobe is 24 and has a entire career let to get laughed at about his shortcomings in 2002/3. 

Kobe is a coattail rider who will be known for that unless he shows that he can lead a team by himself without a 300 pound moster shooting 11/17, 12/18, grabbing 10 boards daily and getting blamed on. Kobe isn't even close. No one likes Kobe. Not even his own teammates. LOL! @ Kobe as a leader. 

3-9 showed me enough, but now he can't even win with Shaq. I'll be the first one laughing when Mitch is sitting with the other 13 GMs hoping for a lucky ball to bounce up only to get the 13th pick. LOL at Kobe even being considered the 2nd or 3rd best. I would put AI above him in a second when it comes to winning. Kobe = poormans Pippen. Atlease Pippen led the Bulls to over 50 wins. Kobe can't even get .500 with Shaq. LOL.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>AirGrady</b>!
> Kobe Griffey Jr.! ROFLMAO!
> 
> "He's got three rings to prove otherwise. And many big game performance in each of those championship runs to shut your pie hole"
> 
> So does Pippen but he has 6! The sad thing is that Kobe is 24 and has a entire career let to get laughed at about his shortcomings in 2002/3.
> 
> Kobe is a coattail rider who will be known for that unless he shows that he can lead a team by himself without a 300 pound moster shooting 11/17, 12/18, grabbing 10 boards daily and getting blamed on. Kobe isn't even close. No one likes Kobe. Not even his own teammates. LOL! @ Kobe as a leader.
> 
> 3-9 showed me enough, but now he can't even win with Shaq. I'll be the first one laughing when Mitch is sitting with the other 13 GMs hoping for a lucky ball to bounce up only to get the 13th pick. LOL at Kobe even being considered the 2nd or 3rd best. I would put AI above him in a second when it comes to winning. Kobe = poormans Pippen. Atlease Pippen led the Bulls to over 50 wins. Kobe can't even get .500 with Shaq. LOL.


nah nah nah nah
nah nah nah nah
hey hey hey
goodbye
:wave:


----------



## c_dog

Just to comment of the rings thing, the # of rings don't mean anything. Pippen has more rings than Kobe, does that make him a better player? No. Fisher has more rings than Kidd, does that make him better than Kidd? No.

If it weren't for Shaq, Kobe wouldn't have those rings anyway. I mean, 3-9! We all know how good Kobe is without Shaq. *starts chanting "3-9! 3-9! 3-9!"*

BTW, I think T-Mac would get his fair share of rings soon enough, if he ever gets a good supporting cast. *prays for Duncan to sign with Orlando*


----------



## AirGrady

U kow what's funny, this:

"Chill out man, we know the lakers stink and we also know that has nothing to do with Shaq or Kobe."

LOL, U of all people have the nerve to use this excuse.

"NO....T-Mac can't lead Magic out first round. I won't show him love until he gets out the first round."

Dude, that's a joke.

Majority of the laker fans think they are high and mighty and can say anything how ever they want, but when someone else uses their same tatics - they get disgusted with it and can't stand it.

To me, Kobe = Another Pippen. He rode the coattail of Shaq and now when Shaq isn't in his best form, Kobe gets spotlighted on and he fails to deliver.


----------



## IV

the rings mean alot especially when your getting scoring the same ppg as the guy who takes all the credit and you're the go to guy on the team in the 2nd half. Pippen? I saw a stat on MJ & Pip the other day.

Scottie outscored MJ something like 17 times
MJ outscored Pip something like 700 times.

if you checked the same stats on Kobe & Shaq they numbers would be close. Kobe may have the edge, I know he did last year. and that only pointing out one aspect of the game which is Shaq strong point. Dont even start to talk about defense where Kobe is all NBA defensive team every year, not SHaq!

Kobe a pippen? only a fool or a hater thinks that. which one are you?


----------



## AirGrady

How much does Shaq shoot compared to Kobe? How much did Pippen Shoot compared to MJ?

What is Shaq's percentage compared to Kobes?

it's not even close. Shaq is the first option because he doesn't need 22 shots to get his points. He's the most dominate player in the league. I don't care how many games Kobe has over Shaq in scoring - that right there tells you Kobe is a idiot and only cares about his stats.

Kobe's defense is overrated - Shows you how much these Hightlight Riders watch the NBA. Ron Artest didn't even make 2nd team last season. There is no way the Lakers would be 10-16 or whatever with TMAC, Duncan, KG, Kidd, or even MJ next to Shaq. Kobe = Overrated. He may be a better scorer than Pippen, while Pippen was the best passer, rebounder, and defender which adds up to more than scoring if YOU ARE A SECOND OPTION WHO DOESN'T TAKE 23 SHOTS LIKE KOBE.

LOL at 45% shooting with SHAQ and TMAC shooti 45% with no true 2 option. LOL at Kobe leading the Lakers to a 3-9 start. LOL at Kobe thinking he's tough cause he can call out R&B Video Guest Appearing Samake Walker, LOL at Kobe for about to cry in All-Star game, LOL at Kobe for missing open lane dunk tonight, and lol at Kobe for wearing a white turtleneck on the CD cover of his supposedly "rap cd" and even making a track with Tyra Banks singing the hook and actually saying this: K- O - B - E, we love you." BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! LOL! He's so fake.


----------



## jazzy1

> Originally posted by <b>AirGrady</b>!
> How much does Shaq shoot compared to Kobe? How much did Pippen Shoot compared to MJ?
> 
> What is Shaq's percentage compared to Kobes?
> 
> it's not even close. Shaq is the first option because he doesn't need 22 shots to get his points. He's the most dominate player in the league. I don't care how many games Kobe has over Shaq in scoring - that right there tells you Kobe is a idiot and only cares about his stats.
> 
> Kobe's defense is overrated - Shows you how much these Hightlight Riders watch the NBA. Ron Artest didn't even make 2nd team last season. There is no way the Lakers would be 10-16 or whatever with TMAC, Duncan, KG, Kidd, or even MJ next to Shaq. Kobe = Overrated. He may be a better scorer than Pippen, while Pippen was the best passer, rebounder, and defender which adds up to more than scoring if YOU ARE A SECOND OPTION WHO DOESN'T TAKE 23 SHOTS LIKE KOBE.
> 
> LOL at 45% shooting with SHAQ and TMAC shooti 45% with no true 2 option. LOL at Kobe leading the Lakers to a 3-9 start. LOL at Kobe thinking he's tough cause he can call out R&B Video Guest Appearing Samake Walker, LOL at Kobe for about to cry in All-Star game, LOL at Kobe for missing open lane dunk tonight, and lol at Kobe for wearing a white turtleneck on the CD cover of his supposedly "rap cd" and even making a track with Tyra Banks singing the hook and actually saying this: K- O - B - E, we love you." BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! LOL! He's so fake.



Funny thing the Tmac jock riders just want to discount the whole 1st Part of his career when he was a 2nd option oh wait I know he didn't know the game or he wasn't as good as he is now I know there are other excuses. Tmac was Vince Carters 2nd opttion that there should tell you something. Kobe just happens to be 2nd option to the most dominant player in NBA history. Want facts Kobe is 48-41 alltime without Shaq. Want more facts name me one time Pippen averaged over 23 ppg in any 1 season. 

Want more I've got plenty, Pippen you mean I can't play because I have a headache or I can't play because I'm really scared of the Pistons ,OR I can't play because I'm pouting like a baby about Phil calling the last shot for Kukoc in the plaoffs against the knicks which he makes. That Pippen. Or the pippen who choked away the 4th quarter against the Lakers in 2000.

Quick back to Tmac the one who said he was better than Baron Davis then got smoked by Davis in the ot game last year that TMac, or the Tmac that got stripped by the inferior Davis at the end of the other crucial game of that series. 

Want more oh the Kobe that beat the spurs in the 4th quarter of every game last year in the plaoffs take your pick when has Pip ever did that. 

Or How about Jkidd who against the lakers in 2000 got a jumper shot in his face at the end by whom Kobe . 

Or lets go to Duncan the same guy who turned the ball over at the end of every Spurs Laker 4th quarterman please next question. 

The Lakers are struggling all of them blows your stupid argument they aren't much better with Shaq there they all need to play better to win including the role players. Whats Tmac's excuse oh my back hurts oh Hills ankle hurts, or oh Miller's hurt . Get Tmac outta the 1st round. And Holla when the 3 X CHAMPS ARE DETHRONED.


----------



## shobe42

*C'mon AirGady disprove these facts*



> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing the Tmac jock riders just want to discount the whole 1st Part of his career when he was a 2nd option oh wait I know he didn't know the game or he wasn't as good as he is now I know there are other excuses. Tmac was Vince Carters 2nd opttion that there should tell you something. Kobe just happens to be 2nd option to the most dominant player in NBA history. Want facts Kobe is 48-41 alltime without Shaq. Want more facts name me one time Pippen averaged over 23 ppg in any 1 season.
> 
> Want more I've got plenty, Pippen you mean I can't play because I have a headache or I can't play because I'm really scared of the Pistons ,OR I can't play because I'm pouting like a baby about Phil calling the last shot for Kukoc in the plaoffs against the knicks which he makes. That Pippen. Or the pippen who choked away the 4th quarter against the Lakers in 2000.
> 
> Quick back to Tmac the one who said he was better than Baron Davis then got smoked by Davis in the ot game last year that TMac, or the Tmac that got stripped by the inferior Davis at the end of the other crucial game of that series.
> 
> Want more oh the Kobe that beat the spurs in the 4th quarter of every game last year in the plaoffs take your pick when has Pip ever did that.
> 
> Or How about Jkidd who against the lakers in 2000 got a jumper shot in his face at the end by whom Kobe .
> 
> Or lets go to Duncan the same guy who turned the ball over at the end of every Spurs Laker 4th quarterman please next question.
> 
> The Lakers are struggling all of them blows your stupid argument they aren't much better with Shaq there they all need to play better to win including the role players. Whats Tmac's excuse oh my back hurts oh Hills ankle hurts, or oh Miller's hurt . Get Tmac outta the 1st round. And Holla when the 3 X CHAMPS ARE DETHRONED.


AIRGRADY, TAKE A LESSON FROM JAZZYS POST PLEASE

Heres a discussion between me and AirGrady:

AG: Who cares about Kobe being the best clutch player in the league and lighting up the Spurs, LOL at kObe O=overated

Shobe: Wow good point Airgrady

AG: Who cares if hes 48-41 w/o Shaq, 3-9! 3-9! 3-9! Hahahahaha

Shobe: wow i didn't see it that way airgrady

AG: TMAC didn't get smoked by Davis hes better because Kobe sucks hahahahhaha

Shobe: I give up AirGrady, you are a genious

I don't expect Air Grady to respond to Jazzy cause I can't see him dealing with the facts and what happened. Fantasy is more fun anyway.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself AirGrady.


----------



## Mulk

This post has nothing to do with Kobe.

IV, u still havent actually made an argument. Please say why the magic should have beaten the Hornets.


----------



## hogey11

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing the Tmac jock riders just want to discount the whole 1st Part of his career when he was a 2nd option oh wait I know he didn't know the game or he wasn't as good as he is now I know there are other excuses. Tmac was Vince Carters 2nd opttion that there should tell you something. Kobe just happens to be 2nd option to the most dominant player in NBA history. Want facts Kobe is 48-41 alltime without Shaq. Want more facts name me one time Pippen averaged over 23 ppg in any 1 season.
> 
> Want more I've got plenty, Pippen you mean I can't play because I have a headache or I can't play because I'm really scared of the Pistons ,OR I can't play because I'm pouting like a baby about Phil calling the last shot for Kukoc in the plaoffs against the knicks which he makes. That Pippen. Or the pippen who choked away the 4th quarter against the Lakers in 2000.
> 
> Quick back to Tmac the one who said he was better than Baron Davis then got smoked by Davis in the ot game last year that TMac, or the Tmac that got stripped by the inferior Davis at the end of the other crucial game of that series.
> 
> Want more oh the Kobe that beat the spurs in the 4th quarter of every game last year in the plaoffs take your pick when has Pip ever did that.
> 
> Or How about Jkidd who against the lakers in 2000 got a jumper shot in his face at the end by whom Kobe .
> 
> Or lets go to Duncan the same guy who turned the ball over at the end of every Spurs Laker 4th quarterman please next question.
> 
> The Lakers are struggling all of them blows your stupid argument they aren't much better with Shaq there they all need to play better to win including the role players. Whats Tmac's excuse oh my back hurts oh Hills ankle hurts, or oh Miller's hurt . Get Tmac outta the 1st round. And Holla when the 3 X CHAMPS ARE DETHRONED.


Oh boy, where to begin:

First, a disclaimer: I do not agree with all of AirGrady's assumptions or posts, but i do agree with some of them. the ones that i agree with will be acknowledged and defended in this post. Thank you.

Alright, we'll start from top to back:
Jazzy1 you ask what happened to Tracy when he was the second option in Toronto??? well lets look at the stats here:

Year 1 - 7ppg, 4.2 rpg, 1.5 apg - 64 games, 17 starts
Year 2 - 9.3ppg, 5.7 rpg, 2.3 apg - 49 games, 2 starts
Year 3 - 15ppg, 6.3rpg, 3.3 apg - 79 games, 34 starts

Ok now, i believe this is the one of the few examples of any player being played off the bench for more than 70% of the games they are with an organization, and being considered the second option. Please, Tmac was NOT the second option on this team. maybe by 3rd year he was, but not in the first 2 years. I am not going to make this thread about comparing Tmac and Kobe, so i wont post his stats, but they are better than Tmacs. Why one might ask? personally, i think that coaching and organizations had a huge influence (Butch Carter vs Del Harris/Phil Jackson and Lakers vs Raptors). Regardless, Jazzy1, your comments are a moot point here. Tmac was not the second option throughout his time in Toronto. At best, he was the second option in his 3rd year, where he scored 15 a game. His development was slowed because of the Raptors orginization and the growth of Vince Carter. Dont believe me? look at his stats in his first year in orlando:

26.8ppg, 7.5rpg, 4.6apg - 77 games, 77 starts.

So, considering all players just make a 12 point per game jump in a single summer, Tmac was just a horrible player in his first half of his career right? wrong. Tmac was not getting the shots or the chance to become a dominant player in Toronto, so he got out of there and look what he did. enough said.

Jazzy1, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not tell me that you are ripping Scottie Pippen, the same Pippen who led the Bulls to the conference finals when Michael Jordan left. Again, I'm not going put Kobe into this thread, but think about it. Scottie is a SHOE-IN for the hall of fame. the guy has 18,000 careers points, 2200 steals, 6000 assists, 7200 rebounds, 3 ALL-NBA first team , 2 second and 1 third team selections, All-NBA defensive team 6 consecuative times, 7 total, and also a 7 time allstar. ON TOP OF ALL THIS, SCOTTIE PIPPEN WAS VOTED AMONG THE TOP 50 PLAYERS OF ALL TIME!

So somebody compares Kobe Bryant to one of the top 50 players of all time, and you get up in arms, and degrade that player? C'mon now, that is not cool. We all know that Kobe Bryant has an excellent chance of beating many if not all of those numbers that Scottie has collected, but dont knock scottie because of your blind love for kobe bryant (dammit you made me include Kobe in this post :upset:  ) Scottie has shown a hell of a lot more leadership than Kobe has, so dont even start with all that horse crap either.

To Baron and TMac: Tell me right now that Baron Davis is a better player than Tracy McGrady and stand by it....... i'm waiting....... oh nothing? hmmm maybe thats because TRACY MCGRADY IS A BETTER PLAYER THAN BARON DAVIS. sure, he was arrogant to tell that to reporters himself, and he was burned by it, since Baron took it personally and took it to him. The strip has and will be talked about forever. get over it. he stripped the ball from Tmac. He is a point guard. Isnt that what point guards do best? steal the balls from other players? If it was like Baron Davis rejected him at the rim for the win, then it would be different. Instead, Baron stole it from Tracy. Fair enough. Tomorrow is another day. Tmac is still a better player.

Again, I willl mention that Pippen led his team to the EASTERN CONFERENCE FINALS and a 50+ win season once Michael Jordan left for a baseball career. Considering his second option was Toni Kukoc, thats pretty crazy and SHOULD be respected. Kobe can barely even lead his team to a winning record without his first option (50-51) so give Scottie some respect. Hes done a whole lot more than Kobe in EVERY category so until Kobe eclipses him, your post is pure garbage.

Also, Muck has an excellent point. Can ANYBODY tell me why the Magic had a better team than the Hornets in that series......No?..... Boy you guys sure are quiet today........ well i guess that settles it. Try again another day my friends......


----------



## AirGrady

LOL @ shobe for even thinking what jazzy1 said was even done in a fashion that could even get my attention.

All his post was about is telling me and assuming what "Magic" fans would say. I don't the time of day to come here and respond to a post that could easily get flattened by a rookie poster. I would break his post down to a shred if he came in here with some valid points. Ok, infact - I will, so I can use the phrase that came out in the early 90s on a Martin show:

"Funny thing the Tmac jock riders just want to discount the whole 1st Part of his career when he was a 2nd option oh wait I know he didn't know the game or he wasn't as good as he is now I know there are other excuses."

First things first. Throwing out T-Mac's first few seasons is like throwing out Kobe's and KGs. Everyone knows a player making the jump straight out of hs needs time to develop. Those first few seasons are like college to them. Unfortunately, T-Mac got drafted on to a team that was the laughing stock of the league. They were losing more games then the Bulls loss in all of their first 3 Consecutive championships. kObe was drafted by a team that had Eddie Jones, NVE, and soon to come, Shaq. If anyone had it easy their first 2 seasons in the history of the NBA, his name is Kobe Bryant.

"Tmac was Vince Carters 2nd opttion that there should tell you something."

What! And? VC was the man in 1999! That season, he was way ahead of Kobe's first or 2nd season. He came straight out of NC where he won a championship at. If anything, it's funny that Kobe was the 4th option behind players like Eddie Jones and NVE, because Carter has showed more talent in his pinky finger in 1999 than Jones and NVE showed their entire career. GIve me a break!

"Kobe just happens to be 2nd option to the most dominant player in NBA history. Want facts Kobe is 48-41 alltime without Shaq. Want more facts name me one time Pippen averaged over 23 ppg in any 1 season."

Name me one time Pippen shot 23 times in one season. Kobe is so overrated. People act as if he's not suppose to average 25/26 points when he takes 23 shots and gets to the line 7 times. "He's held back" NA NA NA. The short time he had this season when leading the team, his field goal percentage was AI worthy and did I mention that he led the team to a 3-9 RECORD! LOL!

"Want more I've got plenty, Pippen you mean I can't play because I have a headache or I can't play because I'm really scared of the Pistons ,OR I can't play because I'm pouting like a baby about Phil calling the last shot for Kukoc in the plaoffs against the knicks which he makes. That Pippen. Or the pippen who choked away the 4th quarter against the Lakers in 2000."

Or the Pippen who lead the Bulls over 55 wins in the 1993/4 season while Kobe while Shaq is out leads the Lakers to a 3-9 record and continues to lose even with Shaq back. LOL! Kobe = Overrated.

"Quick back to Tmac the one who said he was better than Baron Davis then got smoked by Davis in the ot game last year that TMac, or the Tmac that got stripped by the inferior Davis at the end of the other crucial game of that series."

Or Kobe who has missed more clutch shots in his career than even TMAC but no one seems to mention them. Maybe it's because Shaq puts the Lakers in more oppurtunities to win. Bulls Last season, Shaq leaves = Clank. Nets, Shaq out = Misses easy put back. Last season in playoffs before Horry hit game winning 3 = miss! Before that putback that actually was luck that Fisher actually got the ball back to shoot it = Kobe dribbles off of foot. LOL, Kobe is overrated. 

"Want more oh the Kobe that beat the spurs in the 4th quarter of every game last year in the plaoffs take your pick when has Pip ever did that. "

When has Kobe ever done that when Kobe sat out the entire game?!?! What did Shaq average that series. I bet it's waaaaaaaaay better than the 2nd scorer did for the Magic in the last seasons in the playoffs. LOL @ Kobe even getting thumbs up for his play.

"Or How about Jkidd who against the lakers in 2000 got a jumper shot in his face at the end by whom Kobe ."

Or How about TMAC when shot a running layup over a oncoming Mutumbo. How about T-Mac when he came through in the clutch in 2001 when he shot a lay-up over the whole Bucks team to tie it up and take a lead with the free-throw. LOL @ you for bringing up that.

"Or lets go to Duncan the same guy who turned the ball over at the end of every Spurs Laker 4th quarterman please next question."

Let's go to Duncan who lead his team even into the playoffs while Kobe without Shaq settles for 3-9! 3-9! LOLOLOLOLOL

"The Lakers are struggling all of them blows your stupid argument they aren't much better with Shaq there they all need to play better to win including the role players. Whats Tmac's excuse oh my back hurts oh Hills ankle hurts, or oh Miller's hurt . Get Tmac outta the 1st round. And Holla when the 3 X CHAMPS ARE DETHRONED."

OOOOOOOOOO...Excuses, excuses, excuses. Kobe is overrated. Period. I said it before, if KG, Kidd, TMAC, or even Jordan RIGHT NOW was on the Lakers instead of Kobe, they would not be a losing team like this. Shaq is the most dominate player in the league and Kobe Jockriders claim Kobe as the 2nd best player (LOLOLOLOLOLOL.) Kobe is the JaRule of Basketball. Trying to be someone he's not (Kobe trying to be Jordan = Ja Rule trying to be 2Pac, No one on the real streets like Kobe = No one on the real streets like Ja Rule, Kobe needs Shaq to be successful = Ja Rule needs a female to sing to have a hit song) Kobe = Overrated. 

So since Shobe is throwing out 1992 phrases, I'll say = I'm 2LEGIT2QUIT. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


----------



## shobe42

29 out of 29 GMs said Kobe was the 2nd best in the league. 29 out of 29. EVERY SINGLE ONE!! Are they all wrong? Is every GM wrong? The high majority said they'd want him to take the last shot. Are they all wrong? Is every GM wrong.

Everybody has stated their views and it has become pointless. So why not just ask the NBA. 

Does anybody else realize that even the Orlando GM and SanAntonio GM picked Kobe before McGrady or Duncan. 

I don't care if Kobes missed a lot of buzzer beaters. So did Michael Jordan. Guess what else they have in common they both make a lot to.


----------



## c_dog

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> 29 out of 29 GMs said Kobe was the 2nd best in the league. 29 out of 29. EVERY SINGLE ONE!! Are they all wrong? Is every GM wrong? The high majority said they'd want him to take the last shot. Are they all wrong? Is every GM wrong.


Like so many people have said before, OVERRATED! Kobe is way overrated. The GMs think that Kobe is the second best player simply because the Lakers were so dominant. After witnessing the 3-9 start, however, I think they've probably changed their mind.

Wanting Kobe to take the last shot proves just how biased and stupid most GM's are. We all know that Kobe is not as clutch as players like Reggie Miller, or even Mike Bibby.

Enough about Kobe. T-Mac is an awesome player, and if you Laker fans can't see that, then you are all just ignorant. There are good players other than Kobe, you know.


----------



## AirGrady

The sad thing is people say "kObe Clutch" LOL, but I bet he has missed more clutch shots than McGrady even has. Like I said, Shaq puts the Lakers in the situation and Kobe gets the credit. Take Shaq off the Lakers and they are a 25 win season team. It's sad because right now, you put Shaq on the Lakers and they are a 40 win team. LOLOLOLO. Kobe = overrated. Nough said.


----------



## AirGrady

And I bet in Kobe's career, he probably hasn't made the number of clutch shot/game winning shots that TMAC has made already when he leads his team for the entire game and carries them through the fourth. LOL @ Kobe.

He gets embarrassed in Dallas when Shaq is out but gets high fived in LA against the Mavs when Shaq had a great shooting, rebounding night.


----------



## shobe42

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> I don't care if Kobes missed a lot of buzzer beaters. So did Michael Jordan. Guess what else they have in common they both make a lot to.


You didn't read this did you. Is MJ a choke artist. the reason Kobe has missed more is cause he has taken more. 




> After witnessing the 3-9 start, however, I think they've probably changed their mind.


we don't know what the GMs think now, *but if you truly believe that 12 or 25 games can change a unaminous decision then you are quite confused.* 



> Wanting Kobe to take the last shot proves just how biased and stupid most GM's are. We all know that Kobe is not as clutch as players like Reggie Miller, or even Mike Bibby.


Its a fair argument but I disagree cause those guys can take a shot but can't create their own shot at the end or create for teammates at the end like Kobe can. I also feel Kobe is more clutch because he will make big plays on both sides of the ball for the whole fourth and/or OT. I hate comparing him to MJ cause he aint' MJ but for the 4th quarter in many many games he is damn close.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> 29 out of 29 GMs said Kobe was the 2nd best in the league. 29 out of 29. EVERY SINGLE ONE!! Are they all wrong? Is every GM wrong? The high majority said they'd want him to take the last shot. Are they all wrong? Is every GM wrong.
> 
> Everybody has stated their views and it has become pointless. So why not just ask the NBA.
> 
> Does anybody else realize that even the Orlando GM and SanAntonio GM picked Kobe before McGrady or Duncan.
> 
> I don't care if Kobes missed a lot of buzzer beaters. So did Michael Jordan. Guess what else they have in common they both make a lot to.



Right off NBA.com --

Considering Bryant's foes at SG are far less than at SF, i'd say this is pretty even.

Who is the NBA's best shooting guard?
Kobe Bryant - 92.3%
Michael Jordan - 3.8%
*Paul Pierce - 3.8%


Who is the NBA's best small forward?
Tracy McGrady - 65.4%
*Kevin Garnett - 19.2%
*Paul Pierce - 7.7%
*Dirk Nowitzki - 3.8%
Predrag Stojakovic - 3.8%

Oct. 7: If you were starting a franchise today and could sign any player in the NBA, who would it be?
Shaquille O'Neal - 64.0%
Tim Duncan - 28.0%
Kobe Bryant - 4.0%
Tracy McGrady - 4.0%


----------



## shobe42

*Yeah I actually forgot about a lot of those*

But on NBA.Com they also did the poll that I said. It was all the same set of things. It's funny cause there is obviously a disconnect somewhere. 

But to name just some of the nba personell that have said that Kobe is better than TMac: 
-Byronn Scott
-Greg Popovich
-Jason Kidd
*-Tracy McGrady* 
-Horace Grant
-Vince Carter
-Phil
-Shaq

There are more but those just quickly popped into my head. 
some are infered such as Kidd who said "the lakers have the two most dominating players in the league." From that you can easily infer that he is putting Kobe ahead of TMac


----------



## c_dog

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> 
> we don't know what the GMs think now, *but if you truly believe that 12 or 25 games can change a unaminous decision then you are quite confused.*


Well, the few games certainly changed my mind about Kobe and Lakers in general. I used to think Kobe was easily a top player in the league who could carry a team by himself, but after witnessing the 3-9 start, I realised just how much more Kobe has to prove before he can call himself the 2nd best player in the league. The few games also changed my mind about the Lakers because the champions look more vulnerable than ever. There's no way the current lakers would be able to beat Kings in a seven game series.

I think if the GM's were to redo their votes, Kobe wouldn't have gotten as many votes.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, the few games certainly changed my mind about Kobe and Lakers in general. I used to think Kobe was easily a top player in the league who could carry a team by himself, but after witnessing the 3-9 start, I realised just how much more Kobe has to prove before he can call himself the 2nd best player in the league. The few games also changed my mind about the Lakers because the champions look more vulnerable than ever. There's no way the current lakers would be able to beat Kings in a seven game series.
> 
> I think if the GM's were to redo their votes, Kobe wouldn't have gotten as many votes.


Do you still think Shaq is a top ten player? if you haven't notice he has been out there with Kobe and the team is just as bad.
Shaq is 6-8 with Kobe. That should tell you that the rest of the team is a part the problem. Kobe's numbers haven't gone down. They gone up. Shaq's number have gone down a little, but he's still a powerful force. Give him sometime and he'll be back to usual. The biggest problem is the Lakers lack of intensity, and their collective defense is awful. That's what won them 3 titles. The defense and its gone. So dont be so quick to judge the scapegoat, think outside the box.


----------



## TheRifleman

<b>" So dont be so quick to judge the scapegoat, think outside the box"</b>

That is the truth, not just for Kobe and Shaq, but for many other great players in this league, as well. A great player can play with passion, but if his teammates don't step up with that same desire, there just isn't going to be as many wins - no matter how great that player is individually.


----------



## c_dog

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> Do you still think Shaq is a top ten player? if you haven't notice he has been out there with Kobe and the team is just as bad.
> Shaq is 6-8 with Kobe. That should tell you that the rest of the team is a part the problem. Kobe's numbers haven't gone down. They gone up. Shaq's number have gone down a little, but he's still a powerful force. Give him sometime and he'll be back to usual. The biggest problem is the Lakers lack of intensity, and their collective defense is awful. That's what won them 3 titles. The defense and its gone. So dont be so quick to judge the scapegoat, think outside the box.


I think Shaq is still the number one player. Well, not at the moment because he is still trying to get back into his old shape. I think the supporting cast of the Lakers have always been mediocre at best, so Shaq and Kobe are still the most to blame for their recent slump. I do agree that Laker defense is none existent right now, though. When you are losing, it's hard to play with intensity. Just look at the Grizzlies with Sydney Lowe. Thank god for Hubie.


----------

