# Yao = 8/8/1/0 In 26 Minutes = NEW MOP



## Sir Patchwork

Most overrated player. 

Am I the only one who thinks he is grossly overrated? He is terrible at getting position, and can't keep anyone on his back. So when guards do throw him the ball, he loses position and it gets stolen. Not to mention he always looks like he is going to pass out.


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## jibikao

Yao plays much better against slower teams. Maybe it's back-to-back. But I do agree Yao needs to GAIN MORE WEIGHT and gain more energy to stay competitive.


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## jibikao

By the way, I also think Rocket guards are not passing well at all. Yes, occassionally Yao's defender sneaks in but I think a lot of times there are just TOO MUCH hesitation when the guards pass to him. Too much hesitation allows the defender to sneak in. The pass has to be fast and quick to the point. Francis used to have this problem too. His pass is always so soft. 

It's been quite a few years and the team still has problem passing to him. I blame it on the coaches really.


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## rocketeer

Sir Patchwork said:


> Most overrated player.
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks he is grossly overrated? He is terrible at getting position, and can't keep anyone on his back. So when guards do throw him the ball, he loses position and it gets stolen. Not to mention he always looks like he is going to pass out.


did you watch the game?


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## reHEATed

he couldnt take advantage of Boris Diaw starting at center. Diaw outplayed him by far


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## tone wone

The only way he's overrated is if people think he's a "great" player.

Think whatever you want about him.....i tired of defending him


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## Hakeem

Yeah, makes a lot of sense to declare him MOP after one bad game, despite him averaging 19 and 9 so far with no help. Phoenix had two guys on him _constantly_ for three quarters. When they stopped with that when Ryan Bowen -- after being left completely open the entire game till that point -- hit a few jumpers, none of Yao's teammates seriously attempted to get him the ball. I'd like to see any post scorer dominate night in night out in such conditions. And I'd like to point out that Yao's been playing some very good defense so far this season (hope he continues with it).

Btw, Dwight Howard: 5/7/2/0 in 27 minutes = scrub?
Or,
Duncan on the 12th: 11 points, 3-18 from the field, 0 blocks = MOP?


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## rocketeer

yao wasn't being guarded by diaw. yao was being doubled the entire time because van gundy insisted on keeping ryan bowen on the court for most of the minutes yao was in the game. if you(not any specifc person, but in general) watched the game, you would have seen that the suns were fronting yao the entire time and had a 2nd guy on yao's back. that makes it damn near impossible to get him the ball in the post and when ryan bowen is the guy running around open, the other team has nothing to worry about. bowen did hit a couple of shots back to back, but pretty much did nothing with his open chances.

yao's poor statline this game was not his fault at all. that fault would have to go to jeff van gundy and the guards. van gundy for playing bowen alongside yao for most of his minutes and not adjusting to that and the guards for missing several great opportunities to get yao the ball in the post. when yao actually got the ball when he was posting up, he did fairly well scoring a few times and drawing a couple of fouls. he just didn't have enough opportunites with the double teams and playing less than 30 minutes even though he had no foul trouble.


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## One on One

One bad game.


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## Pioneer10

TD just went 3-18 in a game: no way he is the best player in the game


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## Yao Mania

h8rs show their face once again. I don't see any mention of how he had 24/12 in his last 2 games. Or how he was under double coverage all game because Suns would rather leave Ryan Bowen wide open.

Yeesh.


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## GoDWade

Sir Patchwork said:


> Most overrated player.
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks he is grossly overrated? He is terrible at getting position, and can't keep anyone on his back. So when guards do throw him the ball, he loses position and it gets stolen. Not to mention he always looks like he is going to pass out.



I think he is overrated

but that's my opinion, so back off Yao Fans =)

I do think he is a good player, but I just don't like it when some people try to put him on the elite status when he has still been inconsistent

but oh well

edit: I think the the thread starter is not using this one game to be indicative of Yao's game but rather to take the opportunity to tell what he saw in the game (assuming he watched it)


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## Hoopla

Good thread. Here's another one:

Al Harrington = 34/6/7 = GOAT


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## GM3

Expectations were high on him, but hes far from dissapointing, good but far from great.


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## JT

i was watching some of it, the guards were chucking like there is no tomorrow. but then again, maybe they don't see the point of passing it into him. now i have finally realized it-yao ming is merely a skilled roleplayer. won't really ever have that *true* influence on the game. good guy though.


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## futuristxen

I think Big Z is a better player to have...as a third or fourth option on a good team...like he is now....playing at a similiar clip to Yao. Z has more competitive fire, that's for sure. When is the last time Yao dove to the floor for a loose ball?

Yao's kind of proven that he's not going to be a center of the Shaq level, who you can build a team around. I think Houston will have to aquire another star player in order to truly be dangerous. Like a Larry Hughes-like sidekick for T-Mac.

Like Rashard Lewis or Peja. Put them with T-Mac.

Alston
T-Mac
Peja
Swift
Yao

Then you are starting to talk about a team that can contend for championships in this new golden age.


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## JT

nice post futuristxen, but none of this would've had to happen if tracy would've stayed with reverend howard.


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## Hakeem

futuristxen said:


> When is the last time Yao dove to the floor for a loose ball?


I watch most Rockets games and I've seen Yao dive to the floor plenty of times. That's one thing I find difficult to understand -- the claim that Yao has no competitive fire. This is a guy who embarrasses his teammates and fans by pounding himself in the head sometimes when he makes a mistake. He may not be vocal on the court and he may not showboat after dunks, but he has more fire than the majority of players I've seen. 

Also, he is a better passer and defender than Big Z, and scores much, much more efficiently, while drawing more attention from the defense.


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## PartisanRanger

Hakeem said:


> Yeah, makes a lot of sense to declare him MOP after one bad game, despite him averaging 19 and 9 so far with no help. Phoenix had two guys on him _constantly_ for three quarters. When they stopped with that when Ryan Bowen -- after being left completely open the entire game till that point -- hit a few jumpers, none of Yao's teammates seriously attempted to get him the ball. I'd like to see any post scorer dominate night in night out in such conditions. And I'd like to point out that Yao's been playing some very good defense so far this season (hope he continues with it).
> 
> Btw, Dwight Howard: 5/7/2/0 in 27 minutes = scrub?
> Or,
> Duncan on the 12th: 11 points, 3-18 from the field, 0 blocks = MOP?


I got the same impression. Yao was constantly getting double-teamed and being denied the entry pass, it's hard to make any offensive impact with that kind of thing going on.


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## The_Franchise

We still haven't heard if Sir Patchwork watched the game. For the first 3 quarters the Suns had one man fronting Yao and one behind him. Ryan Bowen was open the entire game. It was only after he knocked down 3 consecutive jumpers the Suns brought Kurt Thomas in the game, and that's when Yao got the rest of his points. He was still double teamed, but only after he put the ball on the floor. One thing TMac's injury has proven about Yao is that he is not a closer. Not a great player with the game on the line. 

Yeah the Rockets haven't won with TMac and Alston out, but I wouldn't place the brunt of it on Yao. The Rockets are #1 in opponents PPG with him on the floor... the problem is the scoring just hasn't come from anyone outside of Yao (although Head and Anderson have had back to back good games). Put a Camby or Big Z in Yao's place right now and they wouldn't even be in these games.

It's a little tragic when moderators are making assumptions based on stat lines, but atleast it gets some discussion going.


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## JNice

..

Why is Ryan Bowen employed by the NBA?

Unfortunately for the Rockets, Tmac is having back issues and their new signees have been less than impressive. I wasn't expecting great things from Anderson or Swift, but I was expecting them to be a little better than they have been.

If Tmac can get his back straight, then there is plenty of time for things to change.


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## MemphisX

People still don't seem to feel or understand "era changes" in the NBA. Centers like Yao (limited mobility) are going to struggle in this NBA era. Yao has the skill to still make an impact but teams are killing them with athleticism, movement, and ball skills. That is the impact of the zone. 

Yao is a pretty good player in the weakest NBA position. He is not MOP because most don't consider him a great player anyway.


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## MemphisX

People still don't seem to feel or understand "era changes" in the NBA. Centers like Yao (limited mobility) are going to struggle in this NBA era. Yao has the skill to still make an impact but teams are killing them with athleticism, movement, and ball skills. That is the impact of the zone. 

Yao is a pretty good player in the weakest NBA position. He is not MOP because most don't consider him a great player anyway.


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## The_Franchise

MemphisX said:


> People still don't seem to feel or understand "era changes" in the NBA. Centers like Yao (limited mobility) are going to struggle in this NBA era. Yao has the skill to still make an impact but teams are killing them with athleticism, movement, and ball skills. That is the impact of the zone.
> 
> Yao is a pretty good player in the weakest NBA position. He is not MOP because most don't consider him a great player anyway.


Agreed to an extent. Hakeem always struggled to dominate against the Sonics in the mid-90's because they would 'cheat' and play zone on him. When back to the basket players don't have room to work with it's always a challenge for them to create shots. I guess Shaq would be the one exception as he could create his own space and also was the beneficiary of an excellent triangle offense. Yao would be pretty awesome in one, as fronting wouldn't be a huge problem. Still, Yao does a pretty good job of getting a high % shot with his FGA. 

He obviously doesn't have the impact he would in the pre-zone era, but he is still an impact player. I mean Ryan Bowen had 9 shots, 8 of them because Yao was on the floor. 1 was a runaway layup he nearly injured himself on. When the Rockets got back into it, it was because Bowen was finally hitting those open shots. To me, that's impact.


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## rocketeer

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> He obviously doesn't have the impact he would in the pre-zone era, but he is still an impact player. I mean Ryan Bowen had 9 shots, 8 of them because Yao was on the floor. 1 was a runaway layup he nearly injured himself on. When the Rockets got back into it, it was because Bowen was finally hitting those open shots. To me, that's impact.


exactly. in order to stop yao, the suns had to leave a man open. that's a huge impact on the game. it's not yao's fault if guys miss the open looks he creates for them.


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## RSP83

wadeshaqeddie said:


> he couldnt take advantage of Boris Diaw starting at center. Diaw outplayed him by far


 :yes: great game by Diaw. He played every position this season from PG to C. And he hasn't let anybody down.


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## Sir Patchwork

I watched everything up until the final 6 minutes of the 4th, when I went out to play some ball. My opinion of Yao is not based on one game, the title is a mere spoof of a thread we saw at the beginning of the year, with different variable filled in. 

My main problem with Yao is simply his inability to get position. I too thought the guards were chucking in the first half, and passing up on getting it to him in the post, until a couple of times where Yao seemingly had position, they dropped the ball to him, and the post defender slipped out from behind him and stole the ball. This is not a one game thing, this is an every game thing. 

He has a lot of good skills for a big man, but they are rarely ever used. The ball is rarely in his hands, and people can blame the guards all they want, blame Francis and trade him, blame everyone except Yao, but it's easy to see why they look him off. And by the time he does finally get it in the post, he is too tired to do anything with it. 

Yao is not a superstar. He is not a top 20 player. He is not the 2nd best center in the league. He is not better than Marcus Camby, he is not better than Ben Wallace. If you think he is, then I think you're overrating him.


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## Hakeem

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> Agreed to an extent. Hakeem always struggled to dominate against the Sonics in the mid-90's because they would 'cheat' and play zone on him.


I think that was exaggerated a bit at the time. They mainly tried that in '96 and '97. In '96, Hakeem got his usual 27 ppg in the regular season against them, though he struggled a bit in the playoffs. Keep in mind, though, that Shawn Kemp was one of the best defensive forwards of all time. In '97, the plan against the Sonics was to throw it more to Barkley, since Kemp would always be on Olajuwon with someone else to help. And it worked. Hakeem's ppg against the Sonics fell because of fewer shot attempts, but the Rockets won 7 of their 11 games against them, as opposed to 0 of 8 the previous year.
So, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think the zone makes that huge of a difference. I thought Duncan particularly would be hurt by the change, but it didn't affect him at all. It does, however, make a difference if you have a guy on your team who the opposition thinks is not worth guarding.


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## s a b a s 11

Yeah, Yao is overrated but that's not his fault.

I will say, as a Yao fan, that I am getting extremely disappointed and frustrated with him this season... I am beginning to have doubts that'll he'll ever become more than just an very good center in the NBA. Don't get me wrong, I still have a lot of hope, it's just not as much.

I also think this type of thread would be different had the Rockets won the game... or had a winning record. Yao's performances are only maginified by their losing record and being without McGrady.

Stuart


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## DuMa

I am disappointed in Yao tonight but I am more disappointed in JVG's offensive scheme this year. its excusable that he doesnt have TMac but his number one player on the court doesnt even get the ball most of the time. the guards are just chucking it up. JVG is showing no punishment for these guys when they dont get the ball into Yao. Also there are numerous occasions where they are having Yao set the pick and him rolling never recieving the ball. Its true that hes the one thats constantly swarmed by the defense after the pick but I dont think he's mobile enough to be doing that many picks in the game. I'd rather run it a few times and at the end of the game. I place the blame entirely on JVG. his defensive schemes are overrated if he cant get his offense going.


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## KokoTheMonkey

He sure does get a lot of hype though. That's what is unfortunate for Yao is that people hype him up so much, but he's really not on that elite level. He'll forever be a really good 2nd fiddle, but not much of a #1 option.


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## rocketeer

KokoTheMonkey said:


> He sure does get a lot of hype though. That's what is unfortunate for Yao is that people hype him up so much, but he's really not on that elite level. He'll forever be a really good 2nd fiddle, but not much of a #1 option.


no yao is not one of the elite players in the game, but i'd argue that his impact may be up there on the elite level.


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## The_Franchise

Hakeem said:


> I think that was exaggerated a bit at the time. They mainly tried that in '96 and '97. In '96, Hakeem got his usual 27 ppg in the regular season against them, though he struggled a bit in the playoffs. Keep in mind, though, that Shawn Kemp was one of the best defensive forwards of all time. In '97, the plan against the Sonics was to throw it more to Barkley, since Kemp would always be on Olajuwon with someone else to help. And it worked. Hakeem's ppg against the Sonics fell because of fewer shot attempts, but the Rockets won 7 of their 11 games against them, as opposed to 0 of 8 the previous year.


Phil Jackson was also concerned about the zone defense in the '96 Finals. Kenny Smith mentioned it about 20 times during the WCF. IMO it affected Houston the most because their whole system was built around Hakeem working in isolation/drawing attention and swinging the ball around the perimeter. However if zone was legal, I think Houston would have made the necessary adjustments to get Hakeem the ball. 



Sir Patchwork said:


> He has a lot of good skills for a big man, but they are rarely ever used. The ball is rarely in his hands, and people can blame the guards all they want, blame Francis and trade him, blame everyone except Yao, but it's easy to see why they look him off. And by the time he does finally get it in the post, he is too tired to do anything with it.


 Valid argument.



> Yao is not a superstar. He is not a top 20 player. He is not the 2nd best center in the league. He is not better than Marcus Camby, he is not better than Ben Wallace. If you think he is, then I think you're overrating him.


We'll have to agree to disagree. Camby with 15 points and 10 rebounds against the Pistons in a blowout loss. Camby will get his numbers whether or not the Nuggets are in the game. Opposing teams don't come in with a game plan to stop him, his offensive artillery is no different than a Kurt Thomas. His defensive mobility is far greater than Yao but somehow, some way the Rockets don't give up many points with Yao on the floor. All this with a PF who had 5 blocks last season and doesn't contest a single shot. Guards who can't stop penetration to save their lives. 

Excuses, excuses, excuses... I know. Sooner or later we'll find out whether Yao is ever capable of yelling for the ball, having HUGE games or playing consistently for more than 30 mpg. Right now he's a very good defensive anchor who needs another superstar to close out games for him and his lack of stamina. The Rockets need both of their stars to win. The Spurs have shown they can win without Duncan, the Pistons can win without Wallace or Hamilton, the Pacers can win without Artest, the Heat can win without Shaq. Van Gundy relies on the offensive power of McGrady to bail him out on his shortcomings on offense. Houston needs that additional 25 ppg plus whatever baskets he creates for others to win games. Without him they seem to stay close and fade away in the 4th.


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## HKF

Maybe Houston needs to just bite the bullet and draft a damn pure PG. How about trying to get Kyle Lowry to come out this year?

That kid is just as good as Chris Paul IMO.


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## kisstherim

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> Van Gundy relies on the offensive power of McGrady to bail him out on his shortcomings on offense.


Agree. JVG's offensive system is terrible. Maybe he could lead the Pistons to a championship but the rockets r different. A talented big man, a dominant perimeter player and guys like Swift, Alston…Maybe this is beyond what he can coach. 

The only reason our offense looks fine when TMAC is on the court is just cuz he can mask a lot of JVG's offensive deficiencies.


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## Sir Patchwork

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> Right now he's a very good defensive anchor who needs another superstar to close out games for him and his lack of stamina.


He is a good defensive anchor. He has really short arms, and isn't that mobile, but he seems to be able to slow down some of the best post players in the game (Amare, Duncan, etc) and also provide a help defense that isn't so much shot blocking as it is shot changing. My problem with his defense is when they play faster teams. That's where Camby has him beat badly. Camby is definitely a better defender/shotblocker than Yao in the slow down game, but where it's not even close is the up and down game where Yao becomes so ineffective. 

So in short, my problems with Yao rest within his offense (inability to establish position consistently, which limits his effectiveness a great deal if he can't get the ball with a 6'8 guy on him) and his complete ineffectiveness in the up and down game. 

Thing is, people point to his efficiency as proof that he has a great back to the basket game, but I just don't see it. I argue this same thing with Eddy Curry too. These guys are physical specimens, you need to get them on the move and let them use that. Whenever Eddy gets the ball in the post in a frozen offense, it's bad news. He just doesn't have much of a post game. I don't think Yao does either (although this is relative obviously, both of them can score in the post better than most centers). Where Eddy is the best, is when you get him on backdoor lobs, pick and rolls, high-lows, and stuff like that. Plays where they just catch and use their height/length/etc to finish. Yao going from block to block having the defender beat him to the spot and front him is pretty much the equal of having him run in circles.


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## gong10

HI GUYS 
wut i think ,u should find that Yao had do every thing for JVG. Every game he run around the court to make the defense , to fill other guy's defensive leak. As such a big guy doing all these thing. i didnt see duncan doing this in the game, i didnt shaq doing this too. Why Yao got so tired at the 4th quarter for game. That JVG's fault, dont blame on Yao. Without Yao , Houston cannot win for sure.Yao should get some rest in the game. JVG is such a fool, man.


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## rocketeer

Sir Patchwork said:


> So in short, my problems with Yao rest within his offense (inability to establish position consistently, which limits his effectiveness a great deal if he can't get the ball with a 6'8 guy on him) and his complete ineffectiveness in the up and down game.


yao, when singled covered, consistently puts him in good positions to receive passes. yao had trouble against the suns when he had a 6'8 guy fronting him and a 6'8 or so guy on his back too. i'm not sure what player wouldn't have trouble getting the ball then.


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## Pioneer10

Houston w/o TMac jus ain't very good: therefore Yao doesn't look as good as he can be.

The Rockets aren't exactly overflowing with talent here: the rookie Head looked like there best player other then Yao out there: Swift, Howard, Bowen, Alston, and Barry are all garbage. Yao is never going to be Shaq and I lauged when people predicted that but he can be like a Jack Sikma, Smits, or Parrish type second tier centers. A guy who can be the difference for an already talented team


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## back2newbelf

this is what's wrong with bbb.net(not to say there is much wrong with this board). a thread like this, instead of getting locked by a moderator (because the point of the poster is pure bull****), it gets created by a moderator....T_T


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## Sith

yao is overrated, but hes still very good. people just have too high of unreal expectation on him. yes, houston is 3-9,but if you look at their schedule, it was brutal. they are still adujsting to the life without t-mac. this houston team is not a good offense team, this is why they always keep the game close then lose it in the 4th quarter due to inconsistence offense. this is where t-mac comes in, an ultra talented scoring guard to close out games. i think they will be fine once t-mac comes back.


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## KokoTheMonkey

rocketeer said:


> no yao is not one of the elite players in the game, but i'd argue that his impact may be up there on the elite level.



And how's that? Defensively his size does make a difference, but I don't think his overall impact is on the elite level. If that was the case, Houston's role players like David Wesley and Rafer Alston would be doing much better than they are now.


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## Sad Mafioso

Marion/Nash.

Elite players. Yes or No?


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## HKF

back2newbelf said:


> this is what's wrong with bbb.net(not to say there is much wrong with this board). a thread like this, instead of getting locked by a moderator (because the point of the poster is pure bull****), it gets created by a moderator....T_T


Quit yer whining. It's Thanksgiving. :clown:


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## 1 Penny

Yao was guarded well tonight, you have to understand Yao has tendencies to play well against the Suns especially when Amare was playing. D'Antoni just made sure he wasnt going to get good looks or touches, Yao is still a threath like no other centers, you dont priorities stopping him and watch him dominate that low post. Like Z, but better defender, but yeah both players are playing the same roles on their teams.

Not to mention, Putting the wrong players around him, I had a feeling Derek Anderson wanted to light it up tonight since T-Mac is out. He still needs work on endurance however, and playing the suns especially an atheletic/fast guy like Diaw doesnt help.


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## Hakeem

Sir Patchwork said:


> So in short, my problems with Yao rest within his offense (inability to establish position consistently, which limits his effectiveness a great deal if he can't get the ball with a 6'8 guy on him) and his complete ineffectiveness in the up and down game.


Which teams would you say play the "up and down game"?


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## skykisser

Hakeem said:


> Yeah, makes a lot of sense to declare him MOP after one bad game, despite him averaging 19 and 9 so far with no help. Phoenix had two guys on him _constantly_ for three quarters. When they stopped with that when Ryan Bowen -- after being left completely open the entire game till that point -- hit a few jumpers, none of Yao's teammates seriously attempted to get him the ball. I'd like to see any post scorer dominate night in night out in such conditions. And I'd like to point out that Yao's been playing some very good defense so far this season (hope he continues with it).
> 
> Btw, Dwight Howard: 5/7/2/0 in 27 minutes = scrub?
> Or,
> Duncan on the 12th: 11 points, 3-18 from the field, 0 blocks = MOP?


that's well said.


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## Kidan

Okay Okay 
The "most overrated" player only earns 560$ this season.Can u give us a better choice in the league?

Sun can win without Stoudemire and so does Rockets can't lost without Yao?It is ur opinion?

---
Perharp it is a very good choice of Yao to leave for a better team and then act just like James


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## debarge

gong10 said:


> HI GUYS
> wut i think ,u should find that Yao had do every thing for JVG. Every game he run around the court to make the defense , to fill other guy's defensive leak. As such a big guy doing all these thing. i didnt see duncan doing this in the game, i didnt shaq doing this too. Why Yao got so tired at the 4th quarter for game. That JVG's fault, dont blame on Yao. Without Yao , Houston cannot win for sure.Yao should get some rest in the game. JVG is such a fool, man.


Amen brother. Jeff uses him silly, unless Yao is setting a pick for McGrady, I don't want him on the perimeter at all. The staff has no imagination, Yao should be shooting 15 footers too while he's being fronted. They should work the pick and roll for that, work on it in practice. That's how you defend the "Fronting defense". He isn't used correctly. Juwan could do alot more of what Yao does. As far as not living up too expectations, 3x allstar.


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## The_Franchise

I can think of a 100,000+ threads to bump, but let's start the process slowly.


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## kisstherim

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> I can think of a 100,000+ threads to bump, but let's start the process slowly.



:laugh:


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## Hakeem

Excellent bump. I was looking for this thread the other day, only I didn't realize it had been moved to the Rockets forum.

Nice sig, btw.


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## OneBadLT123

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> I can think of a 100,000+ threads to bump, but let's start the process slowly.


best post ever!


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## skykisser

lol.
Thanks *Mr. Roger's Cardigan * for bumping the thread.
also many thanks to *Sir Patchwork * for such a good laugh.


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## Demiloy

How about 38/10/5 = New MVP. That's more like it.


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