# Jamal Out 3-6 weeks



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

were ****ed. wtf is turf toe?

Houston is also hurt, and Penny is on the IL. we have 0 shooting guards......... oh well. say bye to the division......


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Moochie and Marbury play pretty well together and TT may be on the upswing. We may not sukk so bad.

When you say Houston is hurt you mean he's still not back to form, or is the knee swelling up again or something? Cause if he can start taking on some minutes we may just get better.


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

houston is questionable for the next game


----------



## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

Ariza?


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> houston is questionable for the next game


Oh lord. 

What's the official reason? Is this the beginning of the end, or the end of the end, or what?


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

TURF TOE??How the $%^& does one get TURF TOE on a wooden floor???

Did they install astroturf at the garden??WTF?

Hey,its not bad news at all...

!)JC can lift and put on 15 pounds and rest his shooting elbow..

2) TT can swing over to the two guard..


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Oak,there is very little chance that H20 can hold up with his knees the way they are....

The thing about having knee pain is you start to compensate and then you screw up other parts of your body...

If H20 retired today,when would his salary come off the books??

I am all for Ariza starting.At least 2 guards wont penetrate at will against us and our rebounding would pick up.i cant bear to watch moochie..


----------



## Peter123321 (Jan 2, 2004)

#$%^&*!!! Damn... if we lead the division in 3 weeks it's a miracle. I want Ariza to start over Moochie or Tim Thomas at SG. Truth is right, at least that position will no longer be such a liability on defense.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

If Ariza does fill in,TT MUST step up as Steph is going to get doubled and trapped....


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

It's funny. If the Celtics lost Ricky Davis, would they be proclaiming doom?

The Knicks have lots of guards, but they lose one that shoots an awful percentage, disrupts the flow of the offense, and is non-existent on defense, and suddenly they're in dire straits?

Please. If anything, just think of this as an opportunity for Trevor Ariza to play more than 2 minutes per game. Penny is supposed to be back in a week too.

Marbury is big enough to guard SGs. As long as Lenny decides to play Norris over Brewer, the Knicks should be fine.

Besides, the Knicks were without Houston for the first 20 games. What comes around goes around.

A lot of people here seem to be insecure. Injuries are part of the game. The Nets were without Jason Kidd for a month, and I would consider him "slightly" more valuable than Crawford. It's not like they were going to hold on the division lead with him in the lineup either.

Btw, that Celtics team (you know, the one I was ridiculed for saying was better than the Knicks) is currently 2-0 vs the Knicks, and a half game out of the division lead.

Let's go look at the top 3.

Paul Pierce
22.6 ppg (12th in league)
6.3 rpg
4.3 apg
1.8 spg (9th in league)
0.4 bpg
3.0 tpg
36.4 mpg
.431 fg%
.333 3pt%
.474 efg%
.842 ft%
16.0 fgapg
8.9 ftapg (5th in made, 8th in attempts)
21.84 EFF (18th in league, 3rd among SFs)

Gary Payton
13.2 ppg
2.7 rpg
6.4 apg (13th in league)
1.4 spg
0.2 bpg
2.1 tpg (13th in A/T ratio)
33.8 mpg
.487 fg%
.306 3pt%
.515 efg%
.723 ft%
10.4 fgapg
3.3 ftapg
15.52 EFF

Gary Payton > Jamal Crawford. I can't believe how little respect Payton gets nowadays compared to a chucker like Crawford. A slower and exposed GP is still eons better on defense than a quick/athletic Crawford.

Ricky Davis
14.9 ppg
3.2 rpg
2.8 apg
1.2 spg
0.3 bpg
2.3 tpg
33.1 mpg
.442 fg%
.362 3pt%
.471 efg%
.827 ft%
12.4 fgapg
3.9 ftapg
12.44 EFF

Stephon Marbury
19.5 ppg
2.8 rpg
8.7 apg (3rd in league)
1.5 spg (19th in league)
0.1 bpg
3.1 tpg (14th in league)
38.9 mpg (18th in league)
.443 fg%
.340 3pt%
.490 efg%
.865 ft%
14.8 fgapg
5.6 ftapg
20.35 EFF (25th in league, 5th among PGs)

Jamal Crawford
19.3 ppg
2.7 rpg
3.7 apg
1.5 spg
0.4 bpg
2.5 tpg
36.9 mpg
.398 fg%
.357 3pt% (5th in 3's made, 3rd in attempted)
.470 efg%
.854 ft%
17.1 fgapg
3.6 ftapg
14.27 EFF (let's just say that there are 7 SGs in the top 50, and that Andre Miller is in 50th with an EFF 2.69 higher than Crawford's).

Crawford is averaging more 3 more FGA than Marbury, and 1 more FGA than Paul Pierce. That's pathetic, given his results (which are a best case scenario, mind you). Also, despite the fact that he is getting more minutes and taking 5 more shots per game than Ricky Davis, he is averaging fewer FTA per game than the Rickster.

Tim Thomas
9.8 ppg
3.3 rpg
0.8 apg
0.6 spg
0.4 bpg
1.6 tpg
25.4 mpg
.398 fg%
.371 3pt%
.446 efg%
.813 ft%
9.3 fgapg
1.8 ftapg
7.35 EFF

I've got mercy, so I won't bother to post Keith Van Horn's stats.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Tim Thomas at SG? That would be a disaster.

The guy averages 0.8 apg and 1.6 tpg.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

How well the Knicks do is dependent on TT. As you guys say, giving Ariza (a decent perimeter defender) some burn isn't a bad thing, and a committee of him, Houston and Penny shouldn't be too bad. But we've gotta get something out of that 3 spot. You can't give lots of minutes to Ariza and JYD simultaneously and still score enough points. They'll just trap and zone and it'll be the playoffs all over again.

Come on Tim, now is a good time to make good again.

Rashidi, I was thinking of the Ricky Davis analogy myself last game. Jamal is just as much a wild card as him, they are both young and tremendously skilled but poor decision makers. In both cases one banks on their skills getting a bit better but their brains getting a lot better. But Ricky is bigger, stronger, an equal to better defender, and more of a penetrator. I'd be just as happy to have him on my team as Jamal.


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Rashidi can you post kieth van horns shot attemps compared to his points? then tims? 

Tim takes 9 shots a game last time i checked, and his minutes have gone down cause of our depth and his sucking early on. have you noticed Lennys substitution pattern, he has a really short leash on tim, and a really really long one on jamal. it should be the other way around. Jamal takes some of the worst shot attempts and stays in the game, and tim goes 4-5 and gets benched for the rest of the half.

. we all know keith is better, but is tt + nazr < van horn doleac? no sir


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Rashidi can you post kieth van horns shot attemps compared to his points? then tims?


KVH
17.2 ppg
14.8 FGApg
2.7 FTApg
.516 eFG%
36.9 mpg

T
9.8 ppg
9.3 FGApg
1.8 FTApg
.446 eFG%
25.4 mpg

Guess who is taking more shots per minute?
Hint: It's not the same one that is averaging more points per shot.



> we all know keith is better, but is tt + nazr < van horn doleac? no sir


REALLY? I think KVH/Doleac is probably a smidge better defensively than T/Freeway. Doleac is underrated not only defensively, but at rebounding as well. Let's check the rebound percentages.

T
2.3 offreb%
11.4 defreb%

Freeway
12.6 offreb%
19.4 defreb%

KVH
7.3 offreb%
15.0 defreb%

Doleac
7.7 offreb%
15.7 defreb%

Doleac Knicks 03-04
8.7 offreb%
18.8 defreb%

T/Freeway combined
14.9 offreb%
30.8 defreb%

KVH/Doleac combined
15.0 offreb%
30.7 defreb%

Hey, look at that. They are pretty much equal in rebounding. If the Knicks didn't make the trade, it just means they'd be using Sweetney (9.8 and 18.5) more often. Van Horn scores inside enough to offset the "loss" of Freeway. Like I've said before, Kurt Thomas is a center defensively anyway, and I fail to see how Freeway is any better defensively than Doleac/Sweetney. Freeway's entire offensive repitoire comes from offensive rebounds, and a lot of that is because he doesn't know how to pass the ball when a player is within 5 feet of him. Those unathletic shooting white dudes (hey, isn't that one of the weaknesses of the team?) are also better passers than the walking turnovers they were traded for. The Knicks don't need inside points so much as they need post points. Freeway doesn't post up anybody. KVH would be the Knicks best post player if he were still with the team.

Time for a round of "What if". What if the Knicks didn't make this trade?

The Knicks go after Dampier instead of Crawford. They get a Freeway that plays defense, one who is ready to clamp his jaws down on the size depleted east. It also means the Knicks are going with Penny/Ariza and GASP, Shandon until Houston is ready to come back. Considering how crappy Tim Thomas has played, I fail to see how

Dampier
KT
KVH
Penny/Shandon/Ariza
Marbury

is any worse than

Freeway
KT
T
Crawford
Marbury


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Kurt Thomas and Michael Doleac on the same starting frontline would make us THE WORST offensive rebounding team in the nba. your kvh + doleac off boards stat is bogus to me, i dont see doleac grabbing anything playing big minutes. Nazr is in the top 3 in offensive boards. doleac is a ***** jumpshooter like Kurt, so they both never hit the offensive glass. With chuckers and bricklayers all over this team, you gotta be kidding me that Doleac would be better then Nazr. 

Nazr is second in the league in fg percentage anyway, whats the problem? hes playing efficiently, scoring his, grabbing alot of boards. Doleac is not a better defender. Doleac isnt a a better defender than me at center. im 5'7.

and get off keiths nuts already. when everyone was bashing him for leading the league in turnovers with us, you were his number one fan. He didnt do crap until Marbury showed up.

its just your MO to like the players that nobody else does, and every player who leaves our team.

Rashidis reject fan club:
Shandon Anderson
Howard Eisley
Keith Van Horn
Michael Doleac
*whoever is traded next*


so rashidi, you would rather make a 7 year investment in a 30 year old center, even though the knicks would be no where near a championship team, rather then a 24 year old guard with unlimited potential? whats the point of the dampier deal if we dont win a championship in the next 2 years. after that Damps in the gutter again. injury prone, not motivated, and theres our salary cap, eaten up by him at age 37 making 20 million bucks.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Naz and TT for Doleac and KVH was a great trade for all the wrong reasons...Everyone except Isiah focused on the TT vs KVH part of the deal......

KVH is certainly playing better ball than TT,but this is the first year where KVH has had a much higher shooting % than TT.For their career they shoot the same %,but Keith has hoisted up 40% more shots.

Naz vs Doleac doesnt even warrant a discussion.

You tell me one GM that needs a 5 and would consider Doleac ....

Lets be real.......

Zeke got 2 starters and that what he was after...


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Time for a round of "What if". What if the Knicks didn't make this trade?
> ...


Faulty logic. Offering GS Nazr was the only thing that got us close to Damp. The expirings we gave Chi meant nothing to GS as Damp was coming off books. The only chance they played was in also taking Esch off their hands. But bottom line is they got that plus 2 first round picks elsewhere and that's something we just couldn't match (ditto Carter). But a decent big like Nazr was attractive to them and would clearly have been a better player for them than Foyle.

So the irony is that it would never have been that we go for Damp instead of Nazr, as Nazr was the best thing we had to offer for Damp. 

I think they same will hold true for us in the future. The best recipe for a solid bigman in the future will be a combination of expiring contracts (for which TT and KVH are of roughly equal value) and Nazr. Doleac would have never made for good trade bait, Nazr does. So regardless of which duo makes for better on-the-floor performance now, for a future trade TT/Nazr is a much more potent combination than KVH/Doleac.


----------



## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

i rarely here a basketball player having turf toe. It is usually football players having it. HAHA i thought it had something to do with turf but it actually doesnt have to do with that. I guess jiri wlesch stepped on his foot and POOF, crawford has turf toe!


Not sure what it is, but 3-6 weeks? that sucks......... Good luck


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Tim Thomas said he's willing to play shooting guard in spots with the Knicks undermanned. "Whatever the situation calls for, I've been blessed to be able to play so many different positions with my height," Thomas said. "I have to take advantage of it. I'm willing and capable of anything." Lenny Wilkens said he will practice Thomas at SG.


TT is a better fit at the 2 than Ariza....I wouldnt mind seeing a lineup of

Starbury
TT
Naz
Ariza
Kt..


----------

