# post presence ???



## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

I'm looking at the front court players, and theres a lack of a true back-to-the basket player. Tyson gets his pts of put backs and dunks, West is okay, but his mid-range game is where he's most effective, 2nd year player aren't exactly ready. Where the post presence? IMO Desmond was an okay player in the post, but he's no longer here.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

Basically the Hornets don't have a traditional back-to-the-basket post player.
As you said, Desmond wasn't bad, but he's back on the Bucks now.

On the positive side, the Hornets do have several players who score in the paint (unlike the Bulls, who didn't even have that in decent amounts)

Chris Paul is a slasher, Tyson Chandler scores in the lane (at a high FG%), and I think Julian Wright will develop an offensive game similar to Luol Deng, but with more posting up..

Hilton Armstrong and Cedric Simmons are never gonna be scorers - Armstrong could develop an offensive game similar to Chandler, which will serve him well as long as Chris Paul is running the show.

David West, as you mentioned, is more of a jump-shooter than a post player, but he has some moves there too.

What the Hornets need is just a big guy such as Rasho Nesterovic to come in and be capable of scoring in the post. Not necesarily at a 20Ppg clip, they just need someone who does have some post moves.
This would also open up the floor for Paul, Peja and the other players on the floor.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

different_13 said:


> Basically the Hornets don't have a traditional back-to-the-basket post player.
> As you said, Desmond wasn't bad, but he's back on the Bucks now.
> 
> On the positive side, the Hornets do have several players who score in the paint (unlike the Bulls, who didn't even have that in decent amounts)
> ...


Actually Hilton is a pretty decent scorer. He scored pretty nicely in the summer league games (2nd leading scorer behind Anthony Roberson) and do you remember that game against the Pistons this season when he started for Chandler? He played and scored really well and then Scott barely played him anymore after that. LOL! He has a really nice jumpshot.

Check him out


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

In that case fair enough, but does he have decent post skills?
Does he (or will he be able to) score better in the post (whatever way - fastbreak, postup, whatever) than Chandler?
As if not, you've got to consider Chandler your best inside bigman, which obviously could do with improving.

Congrats on Paul's game cover btw


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## bee-fan (Nov 4, 2006)

girllovesthegame said:


> Actually Hilton is a pretty decent scorer. He scored pretty nicely in the summer league games (2nd leading scorer behind Anthony Roberson) and do you remember that game against the Pistons this season when he started for Chandler? He played and scored really well and then Scott barely played him anymore after that. LOL! He has a really nice jumpshot.
> 
> Check him out


Speaking of that game, CST is gonna replay that game on Tuesday. I started watching that game in the 4th quarter, so here's my chance to see his first NBA action.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

different_13 said:


> In that case fair enough, *but does he have decent post skills?*
> Does he (or will he be able to) score better in the post (whatever way - fastbreak, postup, whatever) than Chandler?
> As if not, you've got to consider Chandler your best inside bigman, which obviously could do with improving.
> 
> Congrats on Paul's game cover btw


You're right, this thread is about post presence. I think with Hilton that remains to be seen. Kenny Gattison works with the big men on the team so maybe since they plan to include Hilton into the rotation more this season, they'll work with him more on post moves. We'll see. I still think Chandler is our best inside bigman though. At least right now.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

Well the Hornets offense doesn't really require a legit post presence. We have to have bigs that can score on the run and a few feet from the basket. Any points scored in the paint will be off fast breaks, drives, or just easy buckets. That really doesnt worry me all that much. The back to the basket game has been dying in the NBA for a few years now.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

IMO, it's hard to be a great team without a legit post presence, look at Washington all the talent in the world, but until they get that post player, they'll never go over the top. Will Hilton develop into a player like that, it remains to be seen.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> IMO, it's hard to be a great team without a legit post presence, look at Washington all the talent in the world, but until they get that post player, they'll never go over the top. Will Hilton develop into a player like that, it remains to be seen.


Not true. What Washington gets ragged on about is their lack of defense, not lack of post presence.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

Brandan Heywood- 6.6pts
Andre Blatch 3.4 pts
Etah Thomas 6.1 pts

Yeah they were horrible on defense, but lack of post play had alot to do with it as well.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> IMO, it's hard to be a great team without a legit post presence, look at Washington all the talent in the world, but until they get that post player, they'll never go over the top. Will Hilton develop into a player like that, it remains to be seen.


There aren't to many legit post men in the entire league anymore.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

True.
I;ve already argued this point to death in the Bulls forum (succesfully, everyone gave up arguing with me :biggrin: )

You need that special type of post player to win championships.

Showtime Lakers - Kareem. Similar system to the Suns, except with a genuine post scorer.
80's Celtics - Parish and McHale, as well as Bird.

Both those teams have excellent passers as well as post players.

82 Sixers - Moses Malone, as well as Dr J.

First threepeat Bulls - Bill Cartwright and Horace Grant. MJ was still developing his post game, but not bad. They didn't have a pass-first pg, but with Pippen, Jordan AND the triangle you don't need one.

Rockets - Olajuwon.

Second threepeat Bulls - Jordan was the main (and very good) post player, but they still had a huge body in Longley. Same backcourt situation, with the triangle etc.

Spurs - Duncan, and Robinson. Avery was a passing guard.

Lakers - Shaq (as well as Kobe). See the Bulls for use of the triangle offense negating the need for a pass-fist pg.

Now, the three Pistons teams - Billups was a floor general, though Isiah was more of a scoring guard (still a very high Apg though). No major post-player, though Mark Agguire was very skilled there too.

Heat - Shaq (and Wade), and they also ran the triangle at times.


Now, out of 27 or so championships, only 3 were won without an excellent post player (6 if you don't count Jordan).
So clearly, having a strong post player wins championships.

A poster in the Bulls board mentioned how most of those teams had at least one or two top 50 players of all time, which I admit is true.
So chances don't really look good for any team just now.

If the Cavs win, I point to Ilgauskas and James, though they would be another 'break from tradition' imo.
Bulls win, ditto - Pistons type.
Suns - I could say Lakers type, as Amare does get doubled, and he does score a lot in the post. It's been a long time since a fastbreak team won, so I'm willing to say it would be another 'break'.



Btw Hawksfan, he's not Tim Duncan, but Jameson has some post skills. I'll agree he's mostly a shooting forward though, and that a post presence would vault them into the Eastern finals at least.
And yeah, their defense is pretty bad, but a post player (especially one who can block shots) would do wonders too.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

Im not saying it isnt necessary, but it depends on the offense. I think it could be very necessary and will be when the league reverts back to that sometime in the future.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

But that's my point - the league hasn't reverted away from that. In this millenium, 7 out of 8 championship teams featured Shaq or Duncan.
In the 80's I think 7 out of 10 teams featured Parish/McHale or Kareem. (with Moses Malone on another, plus the 2 Pistons titles)

A team needs one of these guys to contend.
Especially in the West with Duncan, Yao, Brand and even Boozer..
In the East you can win without one (though I point to Shaq and Z just as a reminder), but no East team has won without a bigman since Jordan days other than the Pistons (2 out of 8 championships this millenium to the East..)


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## fuzznuts (May 23, 2006)

I'm still in shock over how a change in scenary has made Chandler into such a better player..

In Chicago, he couldn't even hold onto the ball..
In New Orleans, he's becoming a solid clean-up man on the O-boards


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

Geaux Tigers said:


> Im not saying it isnt necessary, *but it depends on the offense.* I think it could be very necessary and will be when the league reverts back to that sometime in the future.


This reminds me of someone I heard on tv a few days ago saying that in the Lakers' offense, a good point guard isn't necessary. After the Magic Johnson days when Kobe and Shaq won their championships, who was the point guard? I could've sworn I heard the guy say something about Ron Harper. I don't really remember. Is that true?


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

They had Harper for a while yeah.
Good fit, same triangle offense, so just hopped over from Chicago (well, not quite that simple, but y'know..)
They have Derek Fisher now, definitely not a true pg, but a perfect fit because he knows the offense.
Good passers at pg/sg/sf is more important in the triangle than a great passer at just pg.


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## Lebbron (Nov 20, 2005)

I may be a little too high on him right now but I think Tyson Chandler is going to be a 13-17 ppg guy all down low. Chandler just looks more and more comfortable catching the ball and making moves. IMO he has a lot of talent offensively he's just been missing the confidence. When he is getting fed the ball he is pretty productive with it (and when he's not West is able to get easy put-backs). I expect Paul to go to him even more next year.


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