# Sticky  The Ultimate Kobe, MJ and Lebron thread



## Vinsanity

*LeBron James = Kobe Bryant*

Exact same player....looks like James will be better though


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## raptors32

Have you ever seen him play???


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## Vinsanity

yup.....i got like 10 basketball videotapes with him in it.....and he rules the games...eats his defenders up


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## lakers1

sure for crying out loud he has no outside shot like bryant. and first of all kobe bryant is much better james james is not proven in the nba he just wants to get out of school and go play basketball. Kobe went to the european league to get better and bulk up and he played for the lakers plz james will probablly go to the cavs and still suk. HE plays high school ball for crying out loud they suck. they said dat bout kobe and when he went to the european league what happened dominated dat too. and had no choice for the nba he was too good also he had about a perfect score i believe in the sats and couldve went to harvard. was a genious oh and u said miller in a knicks jersey nasty well before kobe went to the lakers u said the same thing about dat


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## TheRifleman

lakers1 said:


> *sure for crying out loud he has no outside shot like bryant. and first of all kobe bryant is much better james james is not proven in the nba he just wants to get out of school and go play basketball. Kobe went to the european league to get better and bulk up and he played for the lakers plz james will probablly go to the cavs and still suk. HE plays high school ball for crying out loud they suck. they said dat bout kobe and when he went to the european league what happened dominated dat too. and had no choice for the nba he was too good also he had about a perfect score i believe in the sats and couldve went to harvard. was a genious oh and u said miller in a knicks jersey nasty well before kobe went to the lakers u said the same thing about dat *


. ........................................................

Kobe played in Europe? I think you have him mixed up with his daddy, who did play in Europe. Kobe was drafted right out of High school and* Kobe played nowhere except for the Lakers.*

Also, Kobe *did not *have a perfect score on his sats(nobody has to date) - 

*David Robinson scored a 1320(high) and 

Kobe scored a 1080 (Very Good!)*

Kobe is a great player, but let's always try to keep a good perspective on things and not reach into the higest points of *HYPERBOLE when it comes to NBA players*, he is not some kind of "god" - just an excellent NBA player and arguably one of the top 5 players of today's game.


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## lakers1

yeah ur righ rifleman it is true but it gets me mad when ppl compared james to bryant when they say he is better because right now he is nothing he is only a high school ball player i remember they said their was a guy who was better than jordan but then unfortunately died


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## TheRifleman

lakers1 said:


> *yeah ur righ rifleman it is true but it gets me mad when ppl compared james to bryant when they say he is better because right now he is nothing he is only a high school ball player i remember they said their was a guy who was better than jordan but then unfortunately died *



I know how you feel, sometimes we feel as though we "know" the players we like so much. Sometimes when we feel that, we feel a need to "protect" them and they really don't need our protection.

James is just a HS player - now, as was Kobe and as was TMac. He might become something special - but we'll all have to wait and see. 

*Quite obviously - James is nowhere near Kobe or TMac - as he has never been 82 game NBA tested.*


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## Vinsanity

TheRifleman is so right

and to lakers1....u say no outside shot!!!.....are u mad....go see him play before u judge man


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## lakers1

any vince im sorry the raptors will never win a championship especialy with the knicks in the east. they were one game away from the nba finals but instead didnt win anything. vince carter took the shoot and almost shot an airball hes a ballhog who wants the spotlight. Lakers and knicks rule and james may be good but once again is only in high school and kobe and shaq rulee


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## TheRifleman

Dynasties and would-be dynasties come and go in the NBA and all other team sports, for that matter.

Mike came in the 90s, conquered, and then - got older. That always happens and so take heart - the Raptors are still building and they are young & getting healthy. 

One never knows which team and which players on those teams will step up and be crowned the new Kings of the NBA.


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## Shaqs big toe

TheRifleman said:


> *
> . ........................................................
> 
> Kobe played in Europe? I think you have him mixed up with his daddy, who did play in Europe. Kobe was drafted right out of High school and Kobe played nowhere except for the Lakers.
> 
> Also, Kobe did not have a perfect score on his sats(nobody has to date) -
> 
> David Robinson scored a 1320(high) and
> 
> Kobe scored a 1080 (Very Good!)
> 
> Kobe is a great player, but let's always try to keep a good perspective on things and not reach into the higest points of HYPERBOLE when it comes to NBA players, he is not some kind of "god" - just an excellent NBA player and arguably one of the top 5 players of today's game. *


*Listens to Rifleman, stands applauds and then leaves*


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## TexasG

> Originally posted by *lakers1 *
> sure for crying out loud he has no outside shot like bryant. and first of all kobe bryant is much better james james is not proven in the nba he just wants to get out of school and go play basketball. Kobe went to the european league to get better and bulk up and he played for the lakers plz james will probablly go to the cavs and still suk. HE plays high school ball for crying out loud they suck. they said dat bout kobe and when he went to the european league what happened dominated dat too. and had no choice for the nba he was too good also he had about a perfect score i believe in the sats and couldve went to harvard. was a genious oh and u said miller in a knicks jersey nasty well before kobe went to the lakers u said the same thing about dat


Bandwagon fans trip me out. If the Lakers are your favorite team maybe you should try learning more about the players on the team before saying something that will only embarass you.

First I agree that Labron James is not as good as Kobe right now. It would be idiotic to think otherwise since as lakers1 said he's only in highschool. That does not however mean that LaBron James can't be as talented or more talented than Kobe which has been reported on almost every report I have read on James.

I was listening to one of the writers for SLAM Magazine (can't remember which one) the other day on the radio that was at the Cavs practice that James participated in and he said that comparing James to Kobe is not an accurate comparison. First James is about 2 inches taller than Kobe right now, not to mention he has a bigger frame. As far as size goes he's closer to McGrady than he is to Kobe. Also James right now is a better passer than Kobe, and would perfer to be a PG in the NBA instead of a SG/SF. Again this is according to the writer they interviewed not me. He said that James is more of a combo between McGrady, and Magic at the same age. 

He said that during his practice with the Cavs, James ran the point very well, and has amazing handles. He also had several pretty amazing dunks including a facial on Lammond Murry.

As for things that James needs to work on he listed ... mid-range jumper, defense, and rebounding ... not that he's bad at any of these things just that he could use some work in these areas.


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## The_Yoyo

i dont understand why there are all these comparison between players. Especially this one. James has yet to see the talent of college ball, let alone the nba. And once he gets into the nba next year there is no guarantee that he is gonna make a huge impact. the one thing that all the hs kids who made the jump said that they never realize the work ethic that was needed in the nba. Very few hs players have made an impact in the nba in their first few years. Kobe,KG, and Tmac. (O'Neal is coming along but he would have benefitted going to college). There are many who probably should have gone to college before making the jump (J.Bender comes quickly to mind) 

Give James until his third season in the nba to start making kobe comparisons. Its the only fair thing to do. Frankly I hope James waxes Kobe when they go head-to-head.


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## Tha_Blur

> Originally posted by *lakers1 *
> any vince im sorry the raptors will never win a championship especialy with the knicks in the east. they were one game away from the nba finals but instead didnt win anything. vince carter took the shoot and almost shot an airball hes a ballhog who wants the spotlight. Lakers and knicks rule and james may be good but once again is only in high school and kobe and shaq rulee


They were one game from the finals? No they were one game from the conference finals not the NBA finals, and they beat the knicks, so that proves they can get past that old crappy team


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## lakers1

yo be quiet man im sorry im not like u but i have a life not reading anything u can about the nba i bet ill still school u on the court


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## Chops

*Can Kobe Bryant please be his own person...?*

Now he is giving the Jordan shrug of the shoulders.... :no: 

And please, use your real voice Kobe, please!


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## Ron

Come on, you hit two LLLOOOONNNGG threes like that, and you aren't going to gloat?

*I* used to do that, when I played...really, hitting them far out is pretty amazing.


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## Chops

Yeah, but at least gloat in your own way! He wants to be Jordan so bad, it is disgusting......


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## fir3fox

> He wants to be Jordan so bad, it is disgusting......


I couldn't agree with you more. He's such the drama queen.


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## Shaqs big toe

Simply put: No he can't be himself. he'd rather be someone else. We all know who that is, right?


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## MacDanny 6

Give the guy a break, everyone wants to be like Mike. Even Lil Bow Wow!


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## Chops

At least Bow Wow uses his own voice.... :laugh:


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## BizzyRipsta

lol @ kidcrawford's comment...

um, not everyone wants to be like mike...


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## Shadows

> any vince im sorry the raptors will never win a championship especialy with the knicks in the east. they were one game away from the nba finals but instead didnt win anything. vince carter took the shoot and almost shot an airball hes a ballhog who wants the spotlight. Lakers and knicks rule and james may be good but once again is only in high school and kobe and shaq rulee


For the record. Vince Carter did put up the shot, it hit the back rim (I suppose anything that hits the rim and misses is close to an airball)



> hes a ballhog who wants the spotlight


That is simply an immature statement by someone who doesent watch many NBA games or Raptor games. Lakers1 who would you rather of taken that shot for the Toronto team. 

It's a teams star that is supposed to shine in the spotlight when his team needs a key basket. If a player shy's away from the spotlight he's not considered a star. aka shareef abdur Raheim- is known to not want the ball in the end of a game.

No one was complaining when Kobe was putting up Air Balls in the begining of his NBA career. What about When Kobe missed the last shot in the Sacramento series. We can call him a hog for not giving it to Horry or Shaq. What about AI shooting 45% of his teams shots.

If your calling Vince Carter a hog because he shoots more then any other Raptor player. Please be fair and add in every other NBA top 20 scorer as well.


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## Home Court

Check out NBA.com on Kobe's new jersey attention tactic. I love the part at the end.

"So the real question is, would Bryant wear a current NBA player's uniform? 

"Oh yeah, I'd definitely wear one of a current player," said Bryant. 

Anyone in particular? 

"Uh ... Jordan." 

Wizards or Bulls? 

"Bulls, man. Definitely." 

Interpret that uniform choice as you will. "


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## MacDanny 6

So it is true. He wants to be Jordan so much, he's going to wear his jersey and pretend to be him. Oh man, this confirms it all.


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## Chops

Someone said that he wears NC shorts under his Lakers shorts too.....


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## Jamel Irief

I've also heard that Kobe will 3peat so he can be like Jordan as well! And don't forget the way he won the all-star MVP earlier this year like Jordan did. 

Why can't this guy be an orginal like Toby Bailey or Doug Overton.


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## Shaqs big toe

> Originally posted by *Franco5 *
> So it is true. He wants to be Jordan so much, he's going to wear his jersey and pretend to be him. Oh man, this confirms it all.


No, that is more paying homage to him than anything else. That is almost humility, something you rarely see from Kobe. Don't berate him for giving props to MJ


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## Shaqs big toe

> Originally posted by *Jemel Irief *
> I've also heard that Kobe will 3peat so he can be like Jordan as well! And don't forget the way he won the all-star MVP earlier this year like Jordan did.
> 
> Why can't this guy be an orginal like Toby Bailey or Doug Overton.


Oh, he'd make an awesome Doug Overton, but I was thinking more along the lines of emulating Harold Miner. Now he was a... DUD!


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## Fordy74

> Originally posted by *Jemel Irief *
> And don't forget the way he won the all-star MVP earlier this year like Jordan did.
> 
> Why can't this guy be an orginal like Toby Bailey or Doug Overton.


Yes Kobe was quite original in that all-star game hoisting about 65 shots. very original Kobe.:no:


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## Chops

I agree. Kobe had his mind made up before the game that he was going to try and win the MVP......


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## Jamel Irief

Kobe is the anti-christ! :devil:


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## Chops

If you say so..... :uhoh:


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## John

Is this site going have all the Kobe lovers in a year or two?

Man, Kobe is a great talent and he is proven that he can be a great sidekick to Shaq. Hey, it's not easy to be a sidekick as Paul Pierce who has no handles and ask for post up and draw ineffective double teams can't be a sidekick to Shaq for sure.

Give props where are due.


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## DP

> Originally posted by *Penny Hardaway *
> Is this site going have all the Kobe lovers in a year or two?


If this thread is any indication, NO ! 
There will always be more Kobe-haters on message boards. I still like Kobe's game.


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## Chops

That's because Kobe has no charisma. He tries to get everyone to like him, but he ends up looking like he thinks he's all that...

He is ok, but lets see what he does without Shaq. He might not be anything more than a Penny Hardaway....


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## John

> Originally posted by *KiDcRaWfOrD *
> That's because Kobe has no charisma. He tries to get everyone to like him, but he ends up looking like he thinks he's all that...
> 
> He is ok, but lets see what he does without Shaq. He might not be anything more than a Penny Hardaway....


Hey, I still got game man. Did you forget my back to back 40+ point games?


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## Chops

:laugh: 


The question is, were you better in your prime, than Kobe Bryant is right now??


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## John

In my prime, I think I was not aggressive at all but I do have a better court vision and understanding of the game.

I don't need to score 30+ point a game to be effective, I like to use scrub like Scott (sorry Dennis, I have to) and brick-man, Nick Anderson. Why do I need to score when they can shoot the light out in some nites, eh? 

I only step up when everyone struggled did you watch the 95 playoffs?


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## Chops

LMAO! :laugh:


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## John

When, I have some worries right now as I heard so many trade rumors about me. I bought a big house at Pheonix and I don't want to move around again.


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## Devestata

LOL! You wasted money, you're being traded to the NBDL!


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## Chops

Where's little Penny..?


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## John

I still have it in my drawer. lol, fans need to give me a break here. I was injured all season long, yeah I admit I have been overrated to some degree for the past years but I tried my *** off to play at the level that fans want me to play. I wish fans can give me one more chance as I will show you what I will be able to do next season.


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## Devestata

Sure, Penny, anyone who's played with Shaq deserves a fair chance! LOL!


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## Chops

Penny, this is a make or break year for you. If you suck this year, you might as well retire. People already think you're dead.

My friend was like "Didn't Penny die in a car crash?"

LMAO! :laugh:


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## Home Court

Hey Kidcrawford I was joking about the UNC shorts... At least I din't actually see them


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## Chops

Well it is probably true. I bet he sprinkles on some "MJ" cologne before the games as well....


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## Devestata

LOL! I bet he also wears his MJ shoes, and clothing line when he isn't balling! BTW, I have some of that MJ cologne, and it works like wonders, LOL.


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## Jamel Irief

Hey Penny, you should come to the Lakers. According to some posters playing alongside Shaq will make you a superstar again!


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## Chops

Not really because Penny hurt his knee, so he will never be the same......


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## Shaqs big toe

> Originally posted by *Penny Hardaway *
> I still have it in my drawer. lol, fans need to give me a break here. I was injured all season long, yeah I admit I have been overrated to some degree for the past years but I tried my *** off to play at the level that fans want me to play. I wish fans can give me one more chance as I will show you what I will be able to do next season.


if your form on the court rivals your form on the message boards, Penny, I'm gonna throw a $100 on you for MVP.

Great posts man


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## John

Thanks for the props, yeah I will try to do my best and if I am at the point I feel like I can't contribute for my team anymore, I will just call it a "quit." lol, you guys saw my sneakers? That's my favorite shoes and I wore those to score back to back 40 + point games.


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## John

> Originally posted by *Jemel Irief *
> Hey Penny, you should come to the Lakers. According to some posters playing alongside Shaq will make you a superstar again!


Nah, I know I am not a big emotion guy who act like I need to beat a team to death like Kobe shows all years long.

Well, I would rather not to be a sidekick. Since I have been laughing at Fox and Shaw for their pathetic ride on Shaq, I don't want any part of it.:no:


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## gonejay

Whats up with all the Kobe hating! I understand that certain people dont like him for whatever reason,but damn! Why are there so many threads on him!?!? Seems like the guy is on your minds way too much.


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## Lope31

> Originally posted by *Penny Hardaway *
> 
> 
> Nah, I know I am not a big emotion guy who act like I need to beat a team to death like Kobe shows all years long.


Yea don't you just hate those competitive players who do whatever they can to win. And those guys that play as hard as they can so they can be the best ever. Gotta Hatem


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## Chops

He was saying that he, Penny Hardaway, doesn't show as much emotion. It wasn't an attack on Kobe.......


Lighten up :yes:


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## BigMike

*Lebron James.*

Hypothetical question for you guys: if you had the fifth pick in an NBA Fantasy Draft (Like in video games where all the guys are scrambled) would you pick James if he was there over guys like Iverson, TMAC, Kobe, or Duncan who were still available.

I wouldn't even hesitate. I think that when you look at picking a player, potential is the most important thing.


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## HEATLUNATIC

U would take an UNPROVEN high school kid over SUPER-STAR'S like Ivy/T-Mac/Duncan and Kobe?I know one things for sure,I WOULDNT want u as the Heat's GM:no:!


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## jvanbusk

*Re: Lebron James.*



> Originally posted by *footballfreak *
> Hypothetical question for you guys: if you had the fifth pick in an NBA Fantasy Draft (Like in video games where all the guys are scrambled) would you pick James if he was there over guys like Iverson, TMAC, Kobe, or Duncan who were still available.
> 
> I wouldn't even hesitate. I think that when you look at picking a player, potential is the most important thing.


You aren't serious are you? Kobe, TMac, Duncan, Iverson, and many others have all proven they are legitimate superstars in this league, with many years to come. I really can't understand why anyone would take someone that hasn't even played one NBA game and hasn't even finished high school yet, over some of the top basketball talents in the world.


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## RUBEN

for now, Lebron is all hype, I would take any of the other players you mentioned, they have proven they are superstars and they are still young. here is a scouting report on Lebron

LeBron James 
Birthdate: 12/30/84 
NBA Position: Shooting Guard
College: Unlikely
Class: HS Junior
Ht: 6-7
Wt: 215
Hometown: Akron, OH 
High School: St. Vincent-St. Mary
News - The James Journal
2001 Stats


NBA Comparison: Kobe Bryant

Strengths: About as can't miss as can't miss gets. Blessed with supreme athletic gifts and the mind to maximize these tools. Very unselfish, and like Magic Johnson seems to get the most satisfation from a great pass. His vision and passing skills are one of the big aspects which set him apart from other 6-7 wing freaks. Lending to his amazing composure on the floor are his supreme vision and court sense. Has another gear to blow by virtually any defender, and has great leaping ability to get above the rim for spectacular finishes. LeBron excels against top competition, as evidenced in his showdown with Lenny Cooke at the ABCD Camp where he outscored the previous year's MVP and top 3 Senior (Cooke) 25-9. He capped the game off with a three pointer at the buzzer to win the game. A very fundamentally sound player with excellent form on his jumpshot. The sky is truly the limit.

Weaknesses: Still has physical developing in front of him but at just 16, strength does not appear to be a long term issue. Age, the task at hand is staying focused and continuing to develop, without developing a fat head. As Randy Newman said, "It's lonely at the top."

As a freshman, LeBron led his High School team, St Vincent/St Mary's to a perfect 27-0 record and a State Div III title. 

As a sophomore, he led SVSM to another State title and an eventual 25-2 record placing 5th in the USA Today National poll. Facing Oak Hill Academy, a perennial powerhouse which recruits the cream of the crop players Nationally and even Internationally to play for them. LeBron was scintilating with a 33 point performance and gave the eventual National Champions all they could handle with a one point scare. (Article) -- Oak Hill weathers brush with James 

LeBron toyed with the idea of declaring for the NBA draft after his JUNIOR HS season. It would have entailed challenging the NBA rule that a player nust be 18 and wait until his class graduates in order to declare for the draft. Some feel that the rule could be succesfully challenged. 
(Article) -- SVSM's James mulling NBA jump after junior year 
(Article) -- A very early-entry candidate 
But Lebron has since come to his senses saying he will complete HighSchool before exploring his options.

Copyright © 2001 Sports Phenoms, Inc. All rights reserved.


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## BigMike

*No, I'm NOT kidding.*

I am dead serious I would take James with the fifth pick. By that time, Kobe, Duncan Garnett, and TMac are gone. I am a huge potential fan; i feel that that is the most important thing in basketball. Last summer, he played in a training camp that MJ was sponsoring that featured many NBA players. Supposedly, Lebron was the best player in the gym...better than Penny and many other NBAers. If i saw that in a 16 year old, HELL YES i would take him.


Ok, NEW question...would you take him in the first round of an expansion draft.


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## Jason Caffeine

Lebron James is all talk. We can only wait and see how good he is when he gets to the NBA. Whatever happened to Harold Minor-the "next Michael Jordan" ?


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## HEATLUNATIC

Lebron is AWESOME now,he schooled a GIMP Penny!:laugh:

Also do we have to bring up Harold Minor,thats a BAD Heat memory,LOL!


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## Lope31

*Re: No, I'm NOT kidding.*



> Originally posted by *footballfreak *
> Ok, NEW question...would you take him in the first round of an expansion draft.


Deffinitley but I would.

If this was for a franchise I would take himover everybody except.

Duncan
Garnett
Kobe
TMAC
Pierce
AI
maybe Shaq


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## CrazyIverson

In a video game? Why not. I would take him in a heartbeat! With all the hype the video game probly made him the best Guard in the game.(David Stern) With the fifth pick in the 2002 fantasy draft the Denver Nuggets pick Lebron James.:laugh:


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## basketball_jesus

I would take him late first round, like in the mid 20's. The superstars are better than him, and will be for many years. Some day he will probably be great, but I would take someone like Darius Miles, or Psquared before I would risk it on him.


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## blove84

*LeBron James*

How good is this kid going to be?? I hear he has Magic Johnson's vision and Kobe Bryant's athleticism. And he is 6'7' at the age of 17. He still could grow another inch or so. I hear he might not even finish High School and go overseas to play professionally. He must be good. It was said that he is far more along than both K.G. and Kobe were when they came out of High School. In next years draft, he and James White will be the best wing players available.....oh and watch out for Dwayne Wade of Marquette.....


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## Sir I Gotta Go

also Rickey Paulding will be pretty good. He can cut to the basket ala Ricky Davis. And he is explosive and can dunk it on anyone in the college level. He dint't get to show much while playing behind Kareem Rush. But he has a lot more upside than Rush who is just a shooter that comes off screens and doesnt really take it to the rim. Ricky can do it all.


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## blove84

I think L. James has the chance to be one of the best basketball players in the history of the game. He can play the point like a Magic Johnson and take it to the hole like Jordan.....Watch Out


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## hOnDo

how can you guys say all this..the nba is an entirely different game than high school. kobe, tmac, and VC are gonna send this kid cryin back to his mom


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## BballChickaDee

> Originally posted by *hOnDo *
> how can you guys say all this..the nba is an entirely different game than high school. kobe, tmac, and VC are gonna send this kid cryin back to his mom


:no: How can you say that? I mean I understand your point but, I think we should just wait til he plays first...He is definetly going to be breakout player.


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## Chops

Well, just like he can't say that James will suck, you can't say he will be a breakthrough player. We have to just wait and see what he actually does in the league. Anything up until that point is just specualtion.


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## Bean the pimp

im predicting he's gonna put up 25-5-5 his rookie year........hell if i was the owner of a team, i would sabotoge the season and try to go 0-82 so the first pick in the draft could be a lock


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## Chops

> Originally posted by *Bean the pimp *
> im predicting he's gonna put up 25-5-5 his rookie year........hell if i was the owner of a team, i would sabotoge the season and try to go 0-82 so the first pick in the draft could be a lock


It still wouldn't be a lock because the order is based on a draft lottery....


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## Chops

> Originally posted by *Bean the pimp *
> im predicting he's gonna put up 25-5-5 his rookie year........


You know how many people averaged 25-5-5 last year? 2. Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady. It is highly unlikely that James, straight out of HS, will light it up that much.


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## Bean the pimp

well ya chances gotta be good if ur record is that damn bad


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## Bean the pimp

well lets see
Pau Gasol put up 17-9-3 his rookie year (rounding off)
LeBron James is a better scorer i would say...he wont get as many rebounds....he'll definitely get more assists..
so he's gonna at least have 20-5-5.....most likely raise the avg to 25


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## blove84

He will certainly start straight outta High School...


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## Sir I Gotta Go

If you ggo 0-82 you still will only have a 25% chance of winning the lottery...


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## John

> Originally posted by *Malakian *
> If you ggo 0-82 you still will only have a 25% chance of winning the lottery...


But the team will make history eh?
0-82.


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## FreeAirtime

Rember what Kobe did when he came out of high school? They are unbeleivably similar. James is much stronger, but Kobe had superior handles and a better jump shot coming out. James most likely will start. But 20ppg is probably a stretch. 15, 4 and 4 would be excellent numbers his rookie season.


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## blove84

Kobe didn't have superior handles than James when he was coming out. Kobe could never play the point guard position. James has Magic Johnson like vision and he can handle the ball like him too. Kobe had superior handles. Yeah Right!!!


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## shinysuitman42

*add in carmelo*

kind of OT but carmelo anthony is another swingman to addin to that name, reminds me of a scottie pippen almost with a little billy owens at his best added in


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## Baron

> Originally posted by *hOnDo *
> how can you guys say all this..the nba is an entirely different game than high school. kobe, tmac, and VC are gonna send this kid cryin back to his mom


 Uhh people said the same things about Kobe and Tmac also and look at them now. Also, Lebron was at a camp in Cleveland and John Lucas said that he was already holding his own against the best Cavs. I think he'll be the first High School player to make an immediate impact in this league.


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## Tom

*lebron James*

I saw his team lose to a bunch of low talent white boys in the state finals and i didn't see what the pro scouts see. This guy may be the biggest bust of all times. Some of which won't be his fault. He has no way of knowing how hard he needs to work, he has been told he is the greatest thing ever. This might be one of the saddest stories everL; i hope not.


----------



## Bean the pimp

lol that would be kinda funny if he got drafted by the nuggets and wasnt good enough for PT....BUT....we all know he's the next MJ


----------



## Sir I Gotta Go

He'll be fine. Of course he has work to do. all rookies come in thinking they are the ****. But no rookie is ever in good enough shape. All rookies hit about a 40 game wall. He will be fine. Trust me.


----------



## dirty bruce

lebron james = a cross between felipe lopez & korleone young


----------



## rwj333

*Lebron James*

Having heard much about him but never having seen him play, I have a few questions. 
1 Is he overhyped?
2 Is he ready for the NBA? (e.g. will he put up good numbers his first year?)
3 How can GMs tell that he's the real deal? There are plenty of people that can dominate at the high school level.


----------



## bender

> Is he ready for the NBA? (e.g. will he put up good numbers his first year?)


No prep-to-pro player has put up good numbers in his first year. :no: (Only KG put double-figures in his 1st season)


----------



## Wiggum

*Re: Lebron James*



> Originally posted by <b>rwj333</b>!
> Having heard much about him but never having seen him play, I have a few questions.
> 1 Is he overhyped?
> 2 Is he ready for the NBA? (e.g. will he put up good numbers his first year?)
> 3 How can GMs tell that he's the real deal? There are plenty of people that can dominate at the high school level.


1.) I think so, yes.
2.) I think he'll be pretty mediocre his first year. After that he could become a great player but frankly we don't know that.
3.) I suppose it's not just that they dominate it; it's that they play smart basketball. Like...OK let's say that the center for some high school team (let's say 6'9'', 240 lbs.) scores like 40+ PPG but he posts up like O'Neal every time. Well, he's obviously not gonna be able to play like O'Neal in the NBA because he won't have that size advantage. But if he can shoot, pass, dribble, etc...then those skills will help that player in the NBA because they have genuine recognizable talent. That's just my guess though, I really don't know what they look for.


----------



## FSH

He is WAY overhyped..And i think he is gonna be a Darius Miles type in the NBA..Got way to Overhyped his first couple of years and doesnt really become anything good till his 4-5 season in the nba..


----------



## nima86

*Kobe Article*

Due to copyright laws we cannot post entire articles taken from other web sites on this message board. We can however, link to the article, give quotes and also ones personal take on the article. truebluefan


----------



## <<<D>>>

*KOBE THE GREAT*

GOOD POST!!!
I read that article as well...
But all these <strike>HATERS </strike><b><font color=blue>(I think I have said this more than a few times: People who disagree with your "opinion" are not "haters", they simply have a different opinion. Please stop calling posters: "haters"!- TR)</b></font>are blind and will never admitt Kobe's greatness....

The only player to be compared to the Great MJ.

WE KNOW THE TRUTH, THE EXPERTS KNOW THE TRUTH, THE MEDIA KNOW'S THE TRUTH.......
Kobe is just getting started with & without Shaq

SO HOW DO YA FIGURE???


----------



## Chops

Get over it. Not everyone will share the same opinions....


----------



## BizzyRipsta

another kobe thread?

the media is just as biased as fans. of course they're going to praise kobe in an article. do you think they're gonna want to diss him?

this doesn't prove to the "haters" that kobe is great.


----------



## <<<D>>>

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Get over it. Not everyone will share the same opinions....



Yeah....
and we definitley can care less about yours...
the same old heart-broken Kings fans,<strike> back to hate</strike><b><font color=blue>(Please do not call posters who DISAGREE with your opinion - haters! All people are entitled to their "OWN" opinions. Thank you. TR- administrator)</b></font>
and they have nothing legit to debate about...
so get over it.


----------



## <<<D>>>

> Originally posted by <b>BizzyRipsta</b>!
> another kobe thread?
> 
> the media is just as biased as fans. of course they're going to praise kobe in an article. do you think they're gonna want to diss him?
> 
> this doesn't prove to the "haters" that kobe is great.



Would their be a good reason why to diss him??


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b><<<D>>></b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....
> and we definitley can care less about yours...
> the same old heart-broken Kings fans, <strike>back to hate</strike>
> and they have nothing legit to debate about...
> so get over it.


Oh, you're so smart. How about you try to convince me with your "Bibby deserved the elbow" argument. I am a Bulls fan first and I am honestly not heart-broken. You can keep reaching for that excuse instead of debating something worth being talked about. Get over it? Get over what? You don't even know what you're talking about. You are just babbling and spitting out some useless drivel. I'm done....


----------



## <<<D>>>

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh, you're so smart. How about you try to convince me with your "Bibby deserved the elbow" argument. I am a Bulls fan first and I am honestly not heart-broken. You can keep reaching for that excuse instead of debating something worth being talked about. Get over it? Get over what? You don't even know what you're talking about. You are just babbling and spitting out some useless drivel. I'm done....



Your pain is soo damn obvious on your end, we're back to the same circle again aren't we, you just seem to keep bringing up the same old stuff, wanna try something new for once??


----------



## Wiggum

*Re: Kobe Article (Read Haters)*



> Originally posted by <b>nima86</b>!
> Kobe only getting started
> Terry Brown, ESPN Insider
> 
> Where were you when the Lakers made him the No. 13 pick of the 1996 NBA draft out of Lower Merdian High School?


Actually, it was the Charlotte Hornets that selected him in the 1996 draft...and he went to Lower Merion High, not Lower Merdian High...lazy journalism...:sigh:

By the way, was there a point to this thread...?


----------



## JNice

That is a great hype article, but is only that, hype.

Most of the accomplishments listed Kobe would have never achieved or received had he not been playing with Shaquille O'neal on the Lakers.

Do you think Kobe would have been All-NBA first team or Defensive first team had he been playing with the Warriors or Nuggets the last 4-5 years? No way.

I'm sure he still would have won the Slam Dunk.. and maybe a scoring title.. But the rings and other accomplishments, no chance.

Could you have imagined Jordan in his prime with the luxury of playing with Shaquille Oneal? Those two together might have gone unbeaten in a season. 

Don't get me wrong, Kobe is great.. but he is not a God. And Tracy McGrady is right on his heels as far as all-around ability and game (I believe he is ahead, but I wont start that again) ..

The true test of Kobe's ability will only come when Shaquille is gone.

How can you not factor the most dominating basketball player in the entire world into Kobe's accomplishments? This article seems to totally throw that fact to the side.


----------



## Chops

*Re: Re: Kobe Article (Read Haters)*



> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, it was the Charlotte Hornets that selected him in the 1996 draft...and he went to Lower Merion High, not Lower Merdian High...lazy journalism...:sigh:


Not a great way to gain credibility....


----------



## Wiggum

*Re: Re: Re: Kobe Article (Read Haters)*



> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Not a great way to gain credibility....


I was being sarcastic....I'm sorry; sarcasm doesn't really carry well on the internet.


----------



## g-dog-rice

Kobe is going to be a great player, hopefully the best player in the league at one point.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>g-dog-rice</b>!
> Yeah, KC always just says the same thing, just another pathetic sad Kings fan.


  :laugh:


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> Do you think Kobe would have been All-NBA first team or Defensive first team had he been playing with the Warriors or Nuggets the last 4-5 years? No way.


why not? he's a great player, certainly one of the best in the league. he'd play great on any team, and he'd likely be rewarded for it. he'd make any team he's on better, so the fact that the warriors and nuggets haven't been good isn't as relevant, because they'd pretty likely be much better if they had kobe for 4-5 years. he'd likely be pretty well rewarded no matter where he was playing. i don't know how you can say no way.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> why not? he's a great player, certainly one of the best in the league. he'd play great on any team, and he'd likely be rewarded for it. he'd make any team he's on better, so the fact that the warriors and nuggets haven't been good isn't as relevant, because they'd pretty likely be much better if they had kobe for 4-5 years. he'd likely be pretty well rewarded no matter where he was playing. i don't know how you can say no way.


There are a lot of reasons. But most of it comes down to exposure and reporters and media that like to hype whoever is on top. 

Look at Mike Bibby.. last season was actually his worst statistically in the past 3 seasons, yet know he is heralded by all sorts of reporters and plenty of fans are now all over his jock.. Yet he has been a damn good player since he came into the league. But now he got major exposure, for a winner, in a bigger market and booyah, just NOW he is so great. People weren't even mentioning him in their top 5 pg lists two seasons ago, and now after a dip in production, people are regularly placing him in their top 5's.

If Kobe were on a terrible team, he'd be nothing more than a glorified stackhouse.. Two years ago Stackhouse put up 30 ppg, 5apg, 4rpg and Kobe put up 28 ppg, 5 apg, 6 rpg .. Yet Kobe is the next Jordan and Stackhouse that season was ripped for being a ball-hog, a one-dimensional player that needed to sacrifice for the team.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> If Kobe were on a terrible team, he'd be nothing more than a glorified stackhouse.. Two years ago Stackhouse put up 30 ppg, 5apg, 4rpg and Kobe put up 28 ppg, 5 apg, 6 rpg .. Yet Kobe is the next Jordan and Stackhouse that season was ripped for being a ball-hog, a one-dimensional player that needed to sacrifice for the team.


so kobe would be a glorified stackhouse, while guys like carter and tmac and iverson are rewarded with individual awards. 

maybe you're right, and everyone else is wrong, including kobe's opponents, opposing coaches, jordans old teammates and jordan himself. 

stackhouse is nowhere near the player kobe is, and that's why stackhouse doesn't get the respect. comparing him to kobe pretty much exposes you on the topic.


----------



## kflo

bibby's regular season stats have very little to do with fans and reporters being on his jock. it's called stepping up, which is what bibby did, and that's why. not because of the major market of sacramento


----------



## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b><<<D>>></b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Would their be a good reason why to diss him??


sorry, i need to rephrase myself. i mean that of course they won't make him look bad in an article, you know what i mean?


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> so kobe would be a glorified stackhouse, while guys like carter and tmac and iverson are rewarded with individual awards.
> 
> maybe you're right, and everyone else is wrong, including kobe's opponents, opposing coaches, jordans old teammates and jordan himself.
> 
> stackhouse is nowhere near the player kobe is, and that's why stackhouse doesn't get the respect. comparing him to kobe pretty much exposes you on the topic.


I wasn't comparing him to Kobe. I was comparing the situations.

Sure a lot of people consider Kobe "the best" but there are people who consider him overrated as well. Most of the so called "nba experts" are reporters first, who do they report on, whoever is news. 

This is a tired argument that can't be won. I believe Kobe would not be recognized as nearly the great player he is thought of today if he were not playing with Shaq in the spotlight of LA. If Tmac and Kobe were in opposite situations, things would more than likely be nearly exactly reversed with Tmac getting all the hype as the best. That is my opinion.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>BizzyRipsta</b>!
> 
> 
> sorry, i need to rephrase myself. i mean that of course they won't make him look bad in an article, you know what i mean?


I think what she's saying is that any article you're gonna find on Bryant is gonna basically say he's the next Jordan. Why would a journalist write an article saying "Kobe Bryant is just a great player, that's it." There's really no point to an article like that.


----------



## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> I think what she's saying is that any article you're gonna find on Bryant is gonna basically say he's the next Jordan. Why would a journalist write an article saying "Kobe Bryant is just a great player, that's it." There's really no point to an article like that.


exactly...or even, you would never see an article saying "is kobe worth the hype?" and then listing reasons why kobe shouldn't be hyped up.


----------



## g-dog-rice

*Re: KOBE THE GREAT*



> Originally posted by <b><<<D>>></b>!
> GOOD POST!!!
> I read that article as well...
> But all these <strike>HATERS </strike><b><font color=blue>(I think I have said this more than a few times: People who disagree with your "opinion" are not "haters", they simply have a different opinion. Please stop calling posters: "haters"!- TR)</b></font>are blind and will never admitt Kobe's greatness....
> 
> The only player to be compared to the Great MJ.
> 
> WE KNOW THE TRUTH, THE EXPERTS KNOW THE TRUTH, THE MEDIA KNOW'S THE TRUTH.......
> Kobe is just getting started with & without Shaq
> 
> SO HOW DO YA FIGURE???


That was quite possiblly the best post in history!


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>BizzyRipsta</b>!
> 
> 
> exactly...or even, you would never see an article saying "is kobe worth the hype?" and then listing reasons why kobe shouldn't be hyped up.


That might actually a good article. But something like "Is Kobe worth the Hype?" would probably be more fair and present both arguments. You'd NEVER see an article like "Kobe isn't worth the Hype!" because it's the media that's doing the hyping.


----------



## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> You'd NEVER see an article like "Kobe isn't worth the Hype!" because it's the media that's doing the hyping.


that's what i was talking about all this time! i couldn't have said it any better. you found the perfect words to describe my point.  

but yes, presenting both arguments would be a great article that would support the opinions of both kobe fans and non-kobe fans, and it would also help develop an opinion in those who don't have one.


----------



## kflo

most journalists don't need to hype players. it's the networks that do the hyping. they have the financial interest. papers and magazines just need to sell. they don't sell players. they sell stories. there are plenty of articles on players "not worth the hype", usually players with evidence to support they're not worth the hype. garnett, iverson, carter, all have critical pieces written about them all the time. what, all papers have a financial interest in hyping kobe and the lakers? c'mon. kobe's done little to show he's not worthy of the hype. he gets praise from MANY sources who have NO incentive to praise him.


----------



## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> most journalists don't need to hype players. it's the networks that do the hyping. they have the financial interest. papers and magazines just need to sell. they don't sell players. they sell stories. there are plenty of articles on players "not worth the hype", usually players with evidence to support they're not worth the hype. garnett, iverson, carter, all have critical pieces written about them all the time. what, all papers have a financial interest in hyping kobe and the lakers? c'mon. kobe's done little to show he's not worthy of the hype. he gets praise from MANY sources who have NO incentive to praise him.


before i respond to your post, what circulation was that article from?


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> I wasn't comparing him to Kobe. I was comparing the situations.
> 
> Sure a lot of people consider Kobe "the best" but there are people who consider him overrated as well. Most of the so called "nba experts" are reporters first, who do they report on, whoever is news.
> 
> This is a tired argument that can't be won. I believe Kobe would not be recognized as nearly the great player he is thought of today if he were not playing with Shaq in the spotlight of LA. If Tmac and Kobe were in opposite situations, things would more than likely be nearly exactly reversed with Tmac getting all the hype as the best. That is my opinion.


and guess what? tmac's not on a terrible team, he's not a glorified stackhouse, and he's first team all-nba.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>BizzyRipsta</b>!
> 
> 
> before i respond to your post, what circulation was that article from?


i don't recall. but my post wasn't necessarily based on this one article. just on journalists in general, and their incentive to write biased pieces to hype players.


----------



## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> i don't recall. but my post wasn't necessarily based on this one article. just on journalists in general, and their incentive to write biased pieces to hype players.


oh...ok...i just wanted to get into specifics with my response. often times it'll depend on what publication the article is for and who wrote it. i can elaborate on that, but it'll be a little hard, since i don't know the source of this article.


----------



## TheRifleman

I might as well add my 2 cents worth on this continuing debate from the perspective of a non-Laker fan.

Kobe is a great player and could be arguably be a top 5 player in the league today, imo.

He is young, exciting, good looking, works hard, and plays well; he is also a bright young man, and a nice young man. Why wouldn't the media want to "hype" him? It is to their advantage to do stories on a player like him.

Does he deserve all of the media attention? PULEEESE! Of course he does. 

Is he the next Jordan? Who knows, but I'm sure he wants to be the first Kobe and not the "next anybody" now that he has matured from his earlier interviews when he said he wanted to be the next Jordan.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> there are plenty of articles on players "not worth the hype", usually players with evidence to support they're not worth the hype. garnett, iverson, carter, all have critical pieces written about them all the time.


I'm not calling you a liar, but could you post a link to some articles like those?


----------



## kflo

i'd rather not do the research. are you doubting that there have been negative pieces written on those guys?


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> He is young, exciting, good looking, works hard, and plays well; he is also a bright young man, and a nice young man. Why wouldn't the media want to "hype" him? It is to their advantage to do stories on a player like him.
> 
> Does he deserve all of the media attention? PULEEESE! Of course he does.


I'm not saying he's not a good player. I'm saying that the creator of this thread tried to justify the hype about Kobe Bryant by posting an article by a journalist. Well, articles like that ARE the hype that he is receiving. That's what hype is. He's trying to justify hype with hype, which doesn't make any sense.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> i'd rather not do the research. are you doubting that there have been negative pieces written on those guys?


No, I'm just curious about those articles, because I haven't read them and I want to know what they said about them.


----------



## beautifulkobe

Oh my gosh that article is showing you what kobe has accomplished with true stats.No lies, or hype.Its showing oyu what a 23 year old has accomplished since coming to the nba at 17, thats it.Gosh could you give this kid a break already.


----------



## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> Oh my gosh that article is showing you what kobe has accomplished with true stats.No lies, or hype.Its showing oyu what a 23 year old has accomplished since coming to the nba at 17, thats it.Gosh could you give this kid a break already.


but they're also implying that kobe is better than jordan (and well, all of the other players that kobe is being compared to in the article) when in reality, it still hasn't been proven to be true.


----------



## RollWithEm

> Originally posted by <b>BizzyRipsta</b>!
> 
> 
> but they're also implying that kobe is better than jordan (and well, all of the other players that kobe is being compared to in the article) when in reality, it still hasn't been proven to be true.


I don't think they are implying that. I found the article quite unbiased.


----------



## couchtomato

The NBA (and it's broadcasting partners)has hyped ALL of the new young talent in the league as they hope to convince the world that the NBA is in good hands after Jordan, Bird and Magic. And when that new young talent doesn’t produce, lose their game due to injuries, or don’t live up to their potential, then guess what? They move on and hype someone else. Kobe definitely gets more opportunities for national exposure because he's a champion. More Laker games are covered during the season and he's on tv two months after T-Mac, Iverson, and Vince have gone fishing. 

Most NBA sports coverage is generic wire reports - the only original thing about them being the headline. My favorite this year? UN-BULL-LEIVABLE! That's after the Lakers lost to the Bulls for the second time.


----------



## couchtomato

I posted before I finished my thought so...
I think what gets most people is that the glamour sports columnists LOVE Kobe. It's there, the opinion peices, that talk glowingly of his exploits, analyze his personality, whisper his name along with SHHHHH Michael Jordans, mentions his name near the top of every best of list, and wonder what the future has in store. I've followed Kobe since he got in the league. He has had his share of negative press. Hell the fact that he entered the draft at 17 instead of going to college brought about his first firestorm of negative press that went all the way up to his parents. His selfish play brought on another round. His playoff failures brought on another round. His loner status and early marriage brought out the pyschologist. The Shaq feud brought on another round. The Reggie fight brought on some more. He lived through it all and thrives anyway. 

Reporters live to bring people down, not to hype them up. They can sell more papers by having a free for all on a person's good name. Look at Vince Carter this past season. He is as hyped as anyone in the league. But many have jumped off his bandwagon calling him a dunker with no heart- somebody even had the nerve to say he was the "creation of the NBA hype machine." Now, how will HE respond. He can produce. Kobe can tell him - that shuts everybody up.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> Oh my gosh that article is showing you what kobe has accomplished with true stats.No lies, or hype.Its showing oyu what a 23 year old has accomplished since coming to the nba at 17, thats it.Gosh could you give this kid a break already.


Yes, that whole article was hype. They're using facts, yes, but the point of the article was "Kobe Bryant will be one of the best basketball players ever." Why else would a journalist write an article about him, listing his accomplishments like that? It's hype. It's all hype. I'm not against saying Bryant might end up being one of the greats; let's just not try to put him among them before he has done anything to justify it.


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>RollWithEm</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think they are implying that. I found the article quite unbiased.


I actually thought the article MISrepresented some of the older NBA stars in relation to the age they won and Kobe won. They could have done more realistic comparisons than comparing him to centers who came into the NBA at age 22 and 23, not 17. They also forgot to mention that Shaq got the finals MVP each title year, and they skirted around how Magic Johnson won the finals MVP his first 2 times to the finals.

That being said, they give Kobe the credit he deserves for being so accomplished at such a young age. 

It also would have been nice for the Laker author of this thread to put it on the Laker forum, knowing that so many Kobe threads are already here.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>couchtomato</b>!
> I posted before I finished my thought so...
> I think what gets most people is that the glamour sports columnists LOVE Kobe. It's there, the opinion peices, that talk glowingly of his exploits, analyze his personality, whisper his name along with SHHHHH Michael Jordans, mentions his name near the top of every best of list, and wonder what the future has in store. I've followed Kobe since he got in the league. He has had his share of negative press. Hell the fact that he entered the draft at 17 instead of going to college brought about his first firestorm of negative press that went all the way up to his parents. His selfish play brought on another round. His playoff failures brought on another round. His loner status and early marriage brought out the pyschologist. The Shaq feud brought on another round. The Reggie fight brought on some more. He lived through it all and thrives anyway.
> 
> Reporters live to bring people down, not to hype them up. They can sell more papers by having a free for all on a person's good name. Look at Vince Carter this past season. He is as hyped as anyone in the league. But many have jumped off his bandwagon calling him a dunker with no heart- somebody even had the nerve to say he was the "creation of the NBA hype machine." Now, how will HE respond. He can produce. Kobe can tell him - that shuts everybody up.


I think some people are misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not implying that journalists are deliberately hyping Kobe Bryant. I think that people just get carried away because they want a new Jordan. OK...but do you realize that the "Jordan Era" only ended 4 years ago? And that Jordan himself is still playing basketball?People just get ahead of themselves because they want to find the next Jordan that they start looking for one rather than have one emerge on his own. They see Kobe Bryant: a young, handsome, charismatic shooting guard who has a lot of talent and has had success in the league, and they say he must be the next Jordan. I can see the relation, but I don't think that necessarily means he is the next great.


----------



## couchtomato

Any public message board you go on have people debating the merits of Kobe Bryant career - and a columnist should really wait ten years before he joins in? Does anybody have a link for this infamous article anyway. It was yanked before I read it. 

Wiggum, can I ask you where you do your sports reading. Tim Duncan was a heavy duty favorite topic around August and September as every reporter who voted for him wrote articles as to why Tim Duncan was their choice for MVP and what he brings to the league. I think its bogus to say that he gets no press.

Go to the NBA sections of espn.com, msnbcsports.com, foxsports.net, usatoday.com, cnnsportsillustrated.com, washingtonpost.com, nytimes.com to name just a few...

I read these sites often during the NBA season and I find opinions to comfort just about any NBA fan. Also, insidehoops.com has media links for every NBA team. You think Kobe gets a lot of national press - follow him around as he blows through every town - he gets lots of great local press as well. And so does Tim Duncan, T-Mac, Shaq and the other stars who perform day in and day out.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>couchtomato</b>!
> Wiggum, can I ask you where you do your sports reading. Tim Duncan was a heavy duty favorite topic around August and September as every reporter who voted for him wrote articles as to why Tim Duncan was their choice for MVP and what he brings to the league. I think its bogus to say that he gets no press.


I can see how you would misinterpret that, I'm sorry.

What I was implying was that he doesn't get as much attention as Kobe Bryant; I'm sorry, I should have used a better example. I'm basing that assumption mostly because the fans, not so much the press, are constantly discussing Bryant; moreso than any other NBA player. There aren't any Tim Duncan debate threads, etc. But again, I'm sorry, I should have used a better example. Duncan did get a lot of press.


----------



## couchtomato

Wiggum, speaking for myself - I don't need another hero. I watch basketball as entertainment and for the pure drama of it- the Jordan era, like you say is over. I only get to see him on sports classic now (he's not the same on the Wizards although I'm probably appreciating him more now than ever now that he's merely human). There are new and compelling dramas being played out every year. Jordan is the yardstick by which all future stars will be measured and that's an honor to him. I don't think it's disrespecting him in any way. Every time a new "star" comes along they will be compared to the best - there's no getting around it. I understand where you are coming from but I have no problem with saying wow, Jordan is the best to ever play the game - wonder how Kobe, T-Mac, Iverson, Vince will stack up. Most of them won't. We began to talk about MJ's place in history long before he became the best ever - I see no problem with that tradition continuing.

It's like in golf. We know Tiger hasn't accomplished what Jack did during his career. He may never surpass him - but to say we can't bring up the question until he gets closer doesn't make sense, especially when he's on a career path that says he will. 

This is an example. I am in no way saying Kobe is as far along in his career path. But speculating about these kinds of things is really part of the fun of being a sports fan. Isn't it?


----------



## Wiggum

I don't mean what I said disrespectfully; it's just more exciting when there's a hero out there and so people try to find new heroes. So players get sensationalized. That is all I was saying. There's nothing wrong with it, I just disagree with it.


----------



## beautifulkobe

This is just gonna get worse and worse for those kobe haters.Kobe really is loved by sports anyalists,column writers etc.just the world press basically.The articles, and praising is gonna keep rising and rising until he retires.He is a step ahead of everyone else right now and the proof is in that article.He is living up to everything and he just keeps going!

Look at Kobes points already 8,197 at age 23!3 titles at age 23!Bill russel didnt get his first title till 23!


Karl Malone at age 24 only had 2,982 points. 


Like the article says Kobe is on the threshold!!!!


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> This is just gonna get worse and worse for those kobe haters.Kobe really is loved by sports anyalists,column writers etc.just the world press basically.The articles, and praising is gonna keep rising and rising until he retires.He is a step ahead of everyone else right now and the proof is in that article.He is living up to everything and he just keeps going!
> 
> Look at Kobes points already 8,197 at age 23!3 titles at age 23!Bill russel didnt get his first title till 23!
> 
> 
> Karl Malone at age 24 only had 2,982 points.
> 
> 
> Like the article says Kobe is on the threshold!!!!


Russell may not have gotten his first title until he was 23, but it was his first year playing in the NBA, which is something that article neglected to say.


----------



## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> Look at Kobes points already 8,197 at age 23!3 titles at age 23!


that's the thing that bothers me about kobe comparisons. scoring more points doesn't always make you a better player than someone who scores less. and winning titles doesn't make you a better player than someone who doesn't either. 

for example, your comment makes me feel that jason kidd shouldn't be considered as a great player because he hasn't scored as many points as kobe and hasn't won any titles. do you get my point?

and by the way, by the age of 23, kobe was in the nba for 4-5 seasons already, correct? most players are maybe rookies or 2nd year players by the age of 23.


----------



## beautifulkobe

I think jason Kidd one of the best in the league but he hasnt achived what kobe has.

By the way all odds were aginst kobe when he came to the nba.Before kobe came only big men were successful when they came from highschool.Well kobe proved everyone wrong.Then tmac called kobe and tmac came,jermaine oneal,etc.


----------



## IV

*Is there a such thing as a Kobe stopper?*

What's up with the sigma of being a Kobe stopper. We heard Ruben calling Kobe out before the playoffs and he got roasted!
Doug Christie does an Admirable job at times but Kobe still gives him 30+ from time to time. Bowen has his moments, but there aren't many. So who is it? 

I know we've got some Kobe Haters..... weigh in!


"Many have tried but all have failed; there is no such thing as a Kobe stopper!" -- IV


----------



## Eagles in 2003

There are guys who do decent jobs. I recall Kobe saying last year himself that Eric Snow played the best defense on me. By the way....it isn't just Kobe who can't be stopped....no one in particular slows down AI, VC, T-mac or Paul Pierce.


----------



## Chops

Kobe Bryant

Game 1: Trail-Blazers vs. Lakers
*10-28 FG, 34 points*

Game 2: Trail-Blazers vs. Lakers
*5-21 FG, 19 points*

Game 3: Lakers vs. Trail-Blazers
*9-19 FG, 25 points*

_*Total FG %- 35.3
Total ppg- 26*_

Now, did Ruben Patterson really get "roasted"?


----------



## starvydas

> Originally posted by <b>Eagles in 2003</b>!
> . By the way....it isn't just Kobe who can't be stopped....no one in particular slows down AI, VC, T-mac or Paul Pierce.


Agreed. 

I remember Andrei Kirilenko (Jazz) did a pretty good job on Kobe, mostly because he has incredibly long arms.
And how about Ron Artest? I've never seen him play Kobe but he's one hell of a good defender


----------



## RollWithEm

> Originally posted by <b>starvydas</b>!
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> I remember Andrei Kirilenko (Jazz) did a pretty good job on Kobe, mostly because he has incredibly long arms.
> And how about Ron Artest? I've never seen him play Kobe but he's one hell of a good defender


I would definitely go with Artest. Artest does a great job of slowing Kobe down (and boxing him out). All the other "Kobe-stoppers" challenge Kobe's first shot, but only Artest truly concentrates on keeping him off the glass to take away his easy follows.

Jan 12, 2002 LA Lakers at Chicago Bulls
Kobe goes 9-25 from the field with seven turnovers and the Bulls win in overtime. Not only did Ron Artest slow Kobe down, but he actually outscored him 28-26!

Feb 6, 2002 Chicago Bulls at LA Lakers
Kobe gets a whopping 38 points on 14-26, but most of those points are in garbage time when the Bulls have a big lead and Shaq is not playing. Artest sat out the last 14 minutes of this game. Before that time, Artest had 6 steals and Kobe had 8 turnovers while dishing out only one assist to a team that cannot create their own shot without Shaq.

Mar 1, 2002 Indiana Pacers at LA Lakers
Kobe goes for 25 pts, 3 reb, 3 ast, 5 turnovers on 8-17 FG%. Artest gets 18 pts, 10 reb, 6 ast, 2 turnovers off the bench. Although Artest played Kobe well, Shaq was too much for the Pacers and the Lakers won. 

I think Artest is the only guy in this league who can slow Mr Bryant consistently. As you can see from the stats however, no one can actually stop him.


----------



## BballChickaDee

> Originally posted by <b>Eagles in 2003</b>!
> it isn't just Kobe who can't be stopped....no one in particular slows down AI, VC, T-mac or Paul Pierce.


You're right. 

But anyway, so far no one has really proved they can stop Kobe. He is a dominant player in the league, and as such he has a versatile game that needs a just as versatile defender. I agree w/ previous posts though, Doug Christie, and Eric Snow did a great job at defending Kobe...but Ron Artest has done the best at keeping Kobe in check. He challenged Kobe alot by boxing out and beating Kobe to the glass... And Ruben Patterson did have his times at really slowing Kobe down


----------



## k^2

WHO CARES?? There are soooooo many Kobe threads. I mean it seems like 1 on every 3 new threads is about Kobe. Basically everyone on this website has allready stated their opinion the guy. We should drop it.

-normally i wouldn't bash a thread like this but I'm so tired of these Kobe threads.


----------



## Devestata

I have to agree with Eagles in 2003...but KC showed the stats. There is no real way of stopping him, as you can see he still got 20+ points in most games against Patterson, Artest and other good defenders. I would enjoy watching Kobe go one on one with Baron Davis for Paul Pierce, as they are both nice defensive players.


----------



## MightyReds2020

In basketball games, the best offensive players can ALWAYS beat the best defensive players because they are the INITIATORS, and the guys guarding them are just FOLLOWERS. Even the best defender in the world CAN'T read the mind of their opponents. The best thing they can do is to read the offensive players' eyes or movements of whole body parts and then anticipate the consequences. This requires a lot of thinking and experience on the court. That's why rookies usually don't become a good defender in NBA immediately because they need to get familiar with the players' movements in the league. As far as 'Kobe Stopper' goes, I would say you need team efforts instead of a single player to shut him down!


----------



## <<<D>>>

*Re: Is there a such thing as a Kobe stopper?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> What's up with the sigma of being a Kobe stopper. We heard Ruben calling Kobe out before the playoffs and he got roasted!
> Doug Christie does an Admirable job at times but Kobe still gives him 30+ from time to time. Bowen has his moments, but there aren't many. So who is it?
> 
> I know we've got some Kobe Haters..... weigh in!
> 
> 
> "Many have tried but all have failed; there is no such thing as a Kobe stopper!" -- IV




IMO -There's no such thing as a KOBE STOPPER, maybe STALKERS but not STOPPERS, What's worse is that some stranger named Patterson dubbed himself as that, but we've seen it over and over again.....Kobe lights him up all the time, good example last years playoff's and the year before that, where was patterson then???, he can talk all he wants in the regular season, but in the real season (playoff's) He can't stop following and watching Kobe, therefore he meant to call himslef the KOBE STALKER. 

Their are many decent and Tuff defenders out there, here's my list of players that match up well & apply pressure on Kobe.

1) T-mac 
2) D.Christie
3) R.Artest (very aggresive last year)
3) Andre Kirelinko (Impressive D)
4) Griffith & Buckner of the Mavs (this combo was Tuff)


----------



## Devestata

Another Big Man (I wouldn't say Kobe stopper) that is going to be a monster defensive player is Amare Stoudemire. I would seriously watch out for him, if he develops his offensive game we could be looking at the best PF in the game. Just thought I'd get that in.


----------



## NBA4life

I thought I remember Bruce Bowen calling himself "The Kobe botherer". 

Kobe's got game, and I respect him for that. I think Bowen fits the description of "The Kobe botherer"


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>MightyReds2020</b>!
> In basketball games, the best offensive players can ALWAYS beat the best defensive players because they are the INITIATORS, and the guys guarding them are just FOLLOWERS. Even the best defender in the world CAN'T read the mind of their opponents. The best thing they can do is to read the offensive players' eyes or movements of whole body parts and then anticipate the consequences.<u> This requires a lot of thinking and experience on the court.</u> That's why rookies usually don't become a good defender in NBA immediately because they need to get familiar with the players' movements in the league. As far as 'Kobe Stopper' goes, I would say you need team efforts instead of a single player to shut him down!


Great reply overall and especial the underlined part.


----------



## Uncle Jesse

There is a Kobe Stopper and it's named "Shaq Retiring".
Damn that was good, I'm surprised noones used that yet.


----------



## Pinball

Maybe when Shaq retires Kobe will stop winning championships. But that is about it. He is very capable of dropping 30+ points on a team every night. The only aspect of his game that might suffer without Shaq is his FG%. Other than that, I think points go up, assists may go up, and rebounds go up. Wins will go down until he gets a partner capable of wreacking havoc with him. Just my opinion.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

There are no Kobe "stoppers",but there are no T-Mac,Vince,etc.. stoppers either-there are so many good offensive players in the NBA and nobody can really stop them.


----------



## OZZY

*Why I hate Kobe Bryant*

I know there has been a lot of these kind of posts before, but I never really stated my view so here we go.

I hate Kobe Bryant for many reasons, first I think he is not a man in the game of basketball, seriously he picked a fight with probably one of the weakest players in the NBA in Reggie Miller. And then he goes and hides behind Shaq in the playoffs, forget
Shaq giving Kobe the luxury of no double teams but Kobe doesn't get any problems in the playoffs. Because if a player from the other team gets in Kobe's face, well then Shaq either goes over and slams the guy on the ground or he just gets mad and uses it on the court. I would like to see Kobe fight his own battles once, and I hate the way he plays. He just ekes around like a little snake, he doesn't play with much physical force, he acts like he wants the refs to bail him out in the post etc and going to the hoop. Be a man and take it strong, you could not see this any clearer than in the All-Star game. He was playing that like it was a real game, I love competitors and Kobe is one, but come' on,
don't shoot a damn 15 foot jump shot on a break in the All-Star game! And when you dunk bend the rim once, and when you can dunk don't freaking lye it in the hoop! Also it would be nice to not shoot 30 damn shots, that little display in the All-Star game I think
lost him a ton of "fans". Another thing, we walks around like he is the best thing ever in basketball and that is fine, but he is not even the man on his own team, Shaq gives all that bull of, I want Kobe to get the MVP , yeah with you on his team that will never happen. He is cocky but not in a Gary Payton kind of way, Gary will get in any ones face and compete and never let up. But the only player Kobe will get his face into is Reggie Miller? And please take a foul and don't look and cry to the ref, and if you want to be a "BAD A$$" NBA baller, start out that way. Don't come in and change you image from a McDonalds good boy to a punk street baller, because it doesn't work. And he is all goody goody with the media and that gets him some fans, oh he is a nice well rounded NBA player, he speaks FRENCH, who cares!!! Then he goes on the court and cries to the ref and worries about how he is not going to be compared to MJ because he isn't scoring 30 a
game.

Kobe is a great talent and maybe he is good for the game I don't know, but I wish he was real and was himself. It seems like he wants to be two people, one is the feared basketball player that intimidates, the other is the nice guy that everyone likes. Pick one
Kobe, and I would wonder if all of his "FANS" would like him if he was not supposedly cute????? Well the female fans anyway.

Yeah maybe I'm just pissed because he is getting championships, but I think there are about 30-40 players in the NBA that desurve a championship more than he does. But he got lucky and is able to play with Shaq rigth away. He would have NEVER even got one championship at this age if he was on Charlotte, he would have been lucky to get out of the 2nd round. 

*Great baller, but you better be on the damn USA team some time in your career, and you better keep up your cocky attitude when big daddy Shaq is not there to protect you. But I did have some respect for him when he took that BOOOOOing at the end of the All-Star game, maybe he is just pissed about and that is why he has become a BAD BOY in the league?


----------



## SikHandlez24

I believe Kobe speaks Italian, but anyways if U hate KB8 then I hate U.


----------



## <<<D>>>

*Re: Why I hate Kobe Bryant*



> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> I know there has been a lot of these kind of posts before, but I never really stated my view so here we go.
> 
> I hate Kobe Bryant for many reasons, first I think he is not a man in the game of basketball, seriously he picked a fight with probably one of the weakest players in the NBA in Reggie Miller. And then he goes and hides behind Shaq in the playoffs, forget
> Shaq giving Kobe the luxury of no double teams but Kobe doesn't get any problems in the playoffs. Because if a player from the other team gets in Kobe's face, well then Shaq either goes over and slams the guy on the ground or he just gets mad and uses it on the court. I would like to see Kobe fight his own battles once, and I hate the way he plays. He just ekes around like a little snake, he doesn't play with much physical force, he acts like he wants the refs to bail him out in the post etc and going to the hoop. Be a man and take it strong, you could not see this any clearer than in the All-Star game. He was playing that like it was a real game, I love competitors and Kobe is one, but come' on,
> don't shoot a damn 15 foot jump shot on a break in the All-Star game! And when you dunk bend the rim once, and when you can dunk don't freaking lye it in the hoop! Also it would be nice to not shoot 30 damn shots, that little display in the All-Star game I think
> lost him a ton of "fans". Another thing, we walks around like he is the best thing ever in basketball and that is fine, but he is not even the man on his own team, Shaq gives all that bull of, I want Kobe to get the MVP , yeah with you on his team that will never happen. He is cocky but not in a Gary Payton kind of way, Gary will get in any ones face and compete and never let up. But the only player Kobe will get his face into is Reggie Miller? And please take a foul and don't look and cry to the ref, and if you want to be a "BAD A$$" NBA baller, start out that way. Don't come in and change you image from a McDonalds good boy to a punk street baller, because it doesn't work. And he is all goody goody with the media and that gets him some fans, oh he is a nice well rounded NBA player, he speaks FRENCH, who cares!!! Then he goes on the court and cries to the ref and worries about how he is not going to be compared to MJ because he isn't scoring 30 a
> game.
> 
> Kobe is a great talent and maybe he is good for the game I don't know, but I wish he was real and was himself. It seems like he wants to be two people, one is the feared basketball player that intimidates, the other is the nice guy that everyone likes. Pick one
> Kobe, and I would wonder if all of his "FANS" would like him if he was not supposedly cute????? Well the female fans anyway.
> 
> Yeah maybe I'm just pissed because he is getting championships, but I think there are about 30-40 players in the NBA that desurve a championship more than he does. But he got lucky and is able to play with Shaq rigth away. He would have NEVER even got one championship at this age if he was on Charlotte, he would have been lucky to get out of the 2nd round.
> 
> *Great baller, but you better be on the damn USA team some time in your career, and you better keep up your cocky attitude when big daddy Shaq is not there to protect you. But I did have some respect for him when he took that BOOOOOing at the end of the All-Star game, maybe he is just pissed about and that is why he has become a BAD BOY in the league?





Oh NO......Here we go again, another I hate Kobe thread, and I've heard this opinion before, over an over again.


----------



## Uncle Jesse

McGrady's better


----------



## kobe owns t-mac

Pulllleeeeaaassseeee..... not another Kobe thread. By the way, when has Shaq ever come over and slammed somebody Kobe was fighting. Half the time Kobe is fouled. Okay, maybe more players do deserve rings more then Kobe but even Jelani McCoy got a title. Go Kobe!=MVP in 2003! :yes:


----------



## Dragnsmke1

How can you hate a player who raises the play of others? I do not like Kobe either but as it has been stated before...if he played for your team you would love him. The only reason why we dont like 90% of the players we dont like is because we fear them when our own team faces them.

Love the sport...Dont hate the playa.


----------



## Devestata

> Originally posted by <b>SikHandlez24</b>!
> I believe Kobe speaks Italian, but anyways if U hate KB8 then I hate U.


:no: I can't believe this. This thread is getting out of hand quick. :upset:


----------



## OZZY

Ok, I'm wrong, he does speak Italian instead of French sorry. And I know all you "KOBE BACKERS" have heard this before. And the thing on Shaq has never physically defended Kobe. 

*Well I just want to say, don't think that NBA players would not fight Kobe, tons of the probably want to pound the crap out of him during the game.

And if you say that is not true, well sticking with the Lakers theme, ton's of ballers would go "RICK FOX" on him any day.

"RICK FOX", what is that? if you are wondering, well it was in the 1997 playoffs I believe when Rick Fox got into a fight with someone on the other team in ever single series during the playoffs. Don't ask me why but he did, but Kobe could get some of that same treatment in the playoffs, but again no player would ever want to piss off the biggest guy in the league, just ask Brad Miller!!!


----------



## ChiBron

Damn dude, a 10 paragraph essay on Y U hate Kobe? 

Hating Kobe seems like the fashion these days, i've jumped on the bandwagon too.

Seriously though, apart from laker fans and suck-up writers, who likes Kobe Bryant? He's got to be the most hated sports superstar in America today. Even Barry Bonds has gained tremendous amount of respect since last season, plus he's clearly the best today. But the more Kobe seems to win and get better as a player, the more hate he gets. I think there r 3 reasons for that:

1) Gets more credit then he deserves, in other words, he's OVERRATED. Never has a 2nd option been regarded so highly. If u look at Kobe's numbers, they r no better then Pippen(that's not a bad thing).

2) His attitude, and that nobody-can-touch-me smirk on his face all the time. 

3) Probably jealousy, he has achieved a lot at a young age. Many think T-mac, VC, AI ETC can do the same with Shaq on their team. But they don't have Shaq, Kobe has him, and he baths in champange every year.

Some writers say kb's quest to become so great has been misunderstood. Some say his mannerisms r hard for an average nba fan to cnnect with. AND the biggest one, gets too much credit for someone who plays 2nd fiddle to Shaq.

I think the correct answer is somewhere between all that.


----------



## OZZY

> 1) Gets more credit then he deserves, in other words, he's OVERRATED. Never has a 2nd option been regarded so highly. If u look at Kobe's numbers, they r no better then Pippen(that's not a bad thing).


Totally agree that one!!



> 2) His attitude, and that nobody-can-touch-me smirk on his face all the time.


What I was trying to say, but you said it better...




> Hating Kobe seems like the fashion these days, i've jumped on the bandwagon too.


I disagree, I don't hate him because everyone else does, I hate him because I don't like the way he plays the game of basketball and caries himself on and off the court. I don't like how cocky he is, yeah MJ was cocky but not this bad. And as you said about how the "media" eat him up and say he is the best thing in the world. I think that might be one of the TOP reasons. But if Kobe was on my favorite team, I would tolerate him, not like him!!!!!!


----------



## BOB WHITSIT

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Kobe Bryant
> 
> Game 1: Trail-Blazers vs. Lakers
> *10-28 FG, 34 points*
> 
> Game 2: Trail-Blazers vs. Lakers
> *5-21 FG, 19 points*
> 
> Game 3: Lakers vs. Trail-Blazers
> *9-19 FG, 25 points*
> 
> _*Total FG %- 35.3
> Total ppg- 26*_
> 
> Now, did Ruben Patterson really get "roasted"?



Exactly fans say all this crap about Rueben got roasted look at those pathetic shotting numbers and he did not even average 30 ppg a game for the series so yes Rueben is the best defender against Kobe.


----------



## kobe owns t-mac

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> 
> 
> Totally agree that one!!
> 
> 
> 
> What I was trying to say, but you said it better...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, I don't hate him because everyone else does, I hate him because I don't like the way he plays the game of basketball and caries himself on and off the court. I don't like how cocky he is, yeah MJ was cocky but not this bad. And as you said about how the "media" eat him up and say he is the best thing in the world. I think that might be one of the TOP reasons. But if Kobe was on my favorite team, I would tolerate him, not like him!!!!!!



You know who I don't like? Mike Bubby. He is pretty cocky, always screaming as he hits a basket. He has a dumb smile when he scores on the Lakers, but in the end, only the Lakers (and Kobe) were smiling. Tell me how Kobe is cocky and T-mac is not... Why don't you like how he plays? He has it all(the crossover, jumper, DUNKS) The media eats up anybody who averages 25, 5, and 5. Why does everybody pick on Kobe? Didn't T-mac say he was the best player in the ORL/CHAR series and that he was better than Baron? Now please stop picking on Kobe.


----------



## kobe owns t-mac

*Re: Re: Why I hate Kobe Bryant*



> Originally posted by <b><<<D>>></b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh NO......Here we go again, another I hate Kobe thread, and I've heard this opinion before, over an over again.



Thank you D, I agree. Another thread for haters of Kobe. Take this elsewhere I don't want to see it personally. Kobe is one of the youngest players and also one of the most talented. Please stop picking on him. And about that "can't be touched smirk"... who has touched Kobe and the Lakers? Aren't they the three time defending champs?! Yawn, another Kobe thread. :no:  :sigh: :dead: :sour:


----------



## OZZY

Sorry I offended most of you "KOBE BACKERS" but I just had to get my view out.

Main reason Kobe Bryant is not respected by most, Shaquille O'Neal is on his team. 

Why??????

Remember Penny Hardaway on Orlando, great talent concidered the best thing in basketball since Michael Jordan, (Just like Kobe is now!) Penny looked like he could do it all on the court (Just like Kobe is now!) He could dribble, pass, run the PG, was 6-7, quick, athletic, could lead a team and make plays for others (Just like Kobe is now!) Was going to be the next super star and dominate the NBA (Just like Kobe is now!)

To me that is way to close, both players played with Shaq and both looked like they had the NBA in their hand. Now Bryant is a little more athletic and clutch, and probably is more competitive. But both of there games are the same when Shaq is on there team. And Penny would have won a title with Shaq if he didn't leave so don't give me that story. I think that is alittle to close, in a bad way! Another reason why Bryant is not that popular, what is to say he won't turn out the way Penny did, yeah Penny got injured on the Suns but his career when down hill after Shaq left. He did have a 50 50 back to back game in the playoffs but after that down it went.


----------



## ChiBron

> I disagree, I don't hate him because everyone else does


I was just kiddin' their yo, i have hated Kobe ever since his 3rd season. The hatred has only grown since then. He's a great player, but it's tough to show some love toward him.


----------



## OZZY

Why don't people hate


> Mike Bubby


and


> T-mac



Well that is a hard question, maybe it is the Tracy does cry to the refs all game, he doesn't have a player to take his back, he is out there and is the un-questioned leader of his team. Tracy will fit back against other players without the help of a 350 lbs center behind him, see Kenyon Martin insident!

Bibby, he is not a nice guy all the time, see him on the Late Night talk shows, he did not laugh it up with the hosts, he acted and looked like a competitor, he was still angry about the loss. But if that was Kobe he would be laughing it up and working on his PR for McDonalds or something. Screems after winning shots, yeah, Kobe does to and that is not part of the reason I said I didn't like him now is it.

Kobe Bryant will just have to play without Shaq for 4-7 years and win, then people will respect him way more.


----------



## kobe owns t-mac

Kobe is a good guy, on the court and off. I don't understand why alot of people hate him. KOBE FOR MVP! :yes:


----------



## OZZY

> Tracy does cry to the refs all game


Sorry I mean DOESN'T cry to......... I messed up on my typing.

Any why are you "KOBE BACKERS" giving him props for MVP, he will never win it if Shaq is on his team, maybe regular season but the MVP is the teams best play and Kobe isn't the Lakers best guy.


----------



## Pinball

Kobe has got to be the most popular cat on this board. Now I know the trick on how to get more replies. Just write anything about Kobe, whether he sucks or rules, and you'll get about 3 pages worth of replies.


----------



## Wiggum

I'm not disappointed in Bryant's PPG...26 is a very impressive average. The thing I'm noticing is Bryant's low FG%... .353 is not impressive at all. That means Patterson was at least somewhat effective on Bryant.


----------



## SLiM9287

I think patterson played like 10 minutes the whole series and guarded kobe for like 3 min. so those numbers really arent acurate to use for patterson. And ive said this before about 6 or 7 of kobes shots are takin when nothing in the offense works and ther is 4 seconds left on the shot clock to create.


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>KBStAt</b>!
> I think patterson played like 10 minutes the whole series and guarded kobe for like 3 min. so those numbers really arent acurate to use for patterson. And ive said this before about 6 or 7 of kobes shots are takin when nothing in the offense works and ther is 4 seconds left on the shot clock to create.


THAT happens to all good players, not just Kobe, so that is no argument for having a lower shooting percentage.

Also, there are nights when all good players don't shoot well or they get turnovers. No good player is exempt from any of that. It is a given for all players, including great players.

<b>Is there a such thing as a Kobe stopper? </b>

Of course not, just as there wasn't a Bird stopper or a Mike stopper or a Jerry West stopper. When you score more than 20 PPG lifetime, you aren't being stopped a whole lot, are you?


----------



## <<<D>>>

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> Kobe has got to be the most popular cat on this board. Now I know the trick on how to get more replies. Just write anything about Kobe, whether he sucks or rules, and you'll get about 3 pages worth of replies.



Again.....these are the same reasons stated over and over, everyone has their own opinions and open thoughts, but after a while, it really gets annoying, There will never be an answer to all of this, no matter how much you hate Kobe, he will always remain the player you see in him now. And none of us can change any of that. I've noticed even some the verteran posters are'nt even giving their opinions anymore, seems like everyone on this thread are New posters on this site, As a matter of fact, if you guys look in the Laker Forum, their has been this on going record breaking thread titled 
" Why do people hate Kobe " you guys can continue all the Kobe talk on that thread. By doing this you can save some room for new topic threads to develop. I think there should be a Kobe Forum all by itself


----------



## ChiBron

> I think patterson played like 10 minutes the whole series and guarded kobe for like 3 min. so those numbers really arent acurate to use for patterson.


So u r tellin' me that a 37 year old Pippen kept Kobe in check? 

Anyway, it's not only the playoffs, but Kobe has a shooting % of below 40 during the 4 regular season meeting the laker-blazers had last season.

I think it would be fair to say that Patterson is the best defender on Kobe. The word "stopper" is nothin' but BS.....u can only somewhat contain good/gr8 scorers at best.


----------



## hunterb14

Maybe Jordan or Pippen in their prime could contain Kobe but they couldnt shut him down


----------



## dmilesai

Patterson averaged 21.7 MPG agianst the Lakers in the playoffs.


----------



## Ron

*Attention All Kobe Bashers! Your Very Own Thread Right 'Chere!*

Bash away!

But don't start another one, or it will get deleted! 

I'll start...well, since Kobe is one of my favorite players, I would never bash him.

But for all of you who want to, come on down!


----------



## Louie

I got to agree with Rollwithem that Artest is the closest thing to a Kobe stopper there is. I watched both Lakers-Bulls games this year, and when Ron was matched up on kobe it really limited his impact, especially down the stretch. Artest IMO is the best overall defender in the league. He actually blocked MJ's final shot attempt vs. the Wiz, only to have Mercer blow the game on the other end. He caused so many turnovers against Kobe in those games. Noone can stop Kobe, but Artest makes it so that Kobe is almost a liability to his team. When Kobe tries to take over the game and go one-on-one, that is when Artest gets most of his steals and blocks. Great players always get their points, but Artest makes it tougher than anyone.


----------



## JGKoblenz

> Originally posted by OZZY
> Yeah maybe I'm just pissed because he is getting championships


You are right!!! You are pissed because of that!!!


----------



## jazzy1

The guy who gave the RECAP OF THE BULLS GAME WHERE KOBE GETS 38 POINTS AND THEN SAYS HE GOT IT IN GARBAGE TIME IS WRONG KOBE ROASTED ARTEST AS PREVIOUSLY STATED, IT WASN'T GARBAGE TIME BECAUSE THE GAME WAS CLOSER THAN THAT , AND TO KC, He roasted PATTERSON as stated above did you not SEE THE LAST PLAY OF THE GAME WHEN HE BLEW BY THE KOBE STOPPER TO SET UP HORRY FOR THE GAME WINNER MUST HAVE FORGOT THAT, Bringing up shooting percentages is a useless thing to do because you'd have to eliminate many of Jordans,Iversons,tmacs, biggest games using that as a gage, if you actually watched the games YOU'D KNOW THERE REALLY IS NO STOPPING ANY GOOD OFFENSIVE NBA PLAYER, YOU CAN ONLY SLOW THEM THEY'RE ALL TOO GOOD TO STOP AND MOST TIMES THEY ROAST EACH OTHER TO VARYING DEGREES in the course of a game, ARTEST MAN PLEASE TELL HIM TO GET A JUMPSHOT AND A HANDLE, KOBE CAN'T BE STOPPED JUST SLOWED SOME BUT IN THE CLUTCH HE SCORES ANYWAY.


----------



## OZZY

Bash away?????

I don't know, seeings how the creator of this website is a "KOBE BACKER", I could get banned for what I say LOL.....

And the main reason why I bash Kobe is because I love to hear the "KOBE BACKERS" reply. And they probably will never read what I say here because they know whats comeing.

(This is my view on the subject, posted off of my Why I hate Kobe Bryant post that was moved, HERE ARE MY PROBLEMS WITH HIM)
{(AND "KOBE BACKERS" READ THEM ALSO!!!!!!!)}

*****About the Reggie Miller insident. 
Well I just want to say, don't think that NBA players would not fight Kobe, tons of the probably want to pound the crap out of him during the game, or at least get in his face. And if you say that is not true, well sticking with the Lakers theme, ton's of ballers would go "RICK FOX" on him any day.
"RICK FOX", what is that? if you are wondering, well it was in the 1997 playoffs I believe when Rick Fox got into a fight with someone on the other team in ever single series during the playoffs. Don't ask me why but he did, but Kobe could get some of that same treatment in the playoffs, but again no player would ever want to piss off the biggest guy in the league, just ask Brad Miller!!!

*****All Star Game
I would like to see Kobe fight his own battles once, and I hate the way he plays. He just ekes around like a little snake, he doesn't play with much physical force, he acts like he wants the refs to bail him out in the post etc and going to the hoop. Be a man and take it strong, you could not see this any clearer than in the All-Star game. He was playing that like it was a real game, I love competitors and Kobe is one, but come' on, don't shoot a damn 15 foot jump shot on a break in the All-Star game! And when you dunk bend the rim once, and when you can dunk don't freaking lye it in the hoop! Also it would be nice to not shoot 30 damn shots, that little display in the All-Star game I think


*****Main reason Kobe Bryant is not respected by most, Shaquille O'Neal is on his team. 
Why??????
Remember Penny Hardaway on Orlando, great talent concidered the best thing in basketball since Michael Jordan, (Just like Kobe is now!) Penny looked like he could do it all on the court (Just like Kobe is now!) He could dribble, pass, run the PG, was 6-7, quick, athletic, could lead a team and make plays for others (Just like Kobe is now!) Was going to be the next super star and dominate the NBA (Just like Kobe is now!)

To me that is way to close, both players played with Shaq and both looked like they had the NBA in their hand. Now Bryant is a little more athletic and clutch, and probably is more competitive. But both of there games are the same when Shaq is on there team. And Penny would have won a title with Shaq if he didn't leave so don't give me that story. I think that is alittle to close, in a bad way! Another reason why Bryant is not that popular, what is to say he won't turn out the way Penny did, yeah Penny got injured on the Suns but his career when down hill after Shaq left. He did have a 50 50 back to back game in the playoffs but after that down it went.

******ego
And please take a foul and don't look and cry to the ref, and if you want to be a "BAD A$$" NBA baller, start out that way. Don't come in and change you image from a McDonalds good boy to a punk street baller, because it doesn't work. And he is all goody goody with the media and that gets him some fans, oh he is a nice well rounded NBA player, he speaks Italian, who cares!!!


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Hahahaha*

I can't believe you people need a thread for this stuff:laugh:! You just need to get your anger out:laugh:!

You just go around trying to make the fact that you hate Kobe sound intelligent by putting it into essays when it still sounds childish.

A Kobe hater's typical conversation:
Person A: "I hate Kobe."
Person B: "Oh, I hate him too. Why do you hate him?"
Person A: "Because he and Shaq always win the rings and he's only 23 years old, it's not fair."
Person B: "Yeah, I really hate Kobe.

Then here come the "Kobe Backers" saying, "Shut up about this whiny Kobe crap." And then the "Kobe Haters" try to make them sound childish, when they are the ones who started the whole whiny stuff, and they are acting childish themselves.

What I'm trying to say here is that we all know people hate Kobe, and putting up a thread about why you hate Kobe is just ridiculous, and childish. Some people even sound like they hate Kobe because he is so good.

And if you do contribute to the Kobe bashing, don't make the "Kobe Backers" sound childish, because you're just being a hypocrit.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> The guy who gave the RECAP OF THE BULLS GAME WHERE KOBE GETS 38 POINTS AND THEN SAYS HE GOT IT IN GARBAGE TIME IS WRONG KOBE ROASTED ARTEST AS PREVIOUSLY STATED, IT WASN'T GARBAGE TIME BECAUSE THE GAME WAS CLOSER THAN THAT , AND TO KC, He roasted PATTERSON as stated above did you not SEE THE LAST PLAY OF THE GAME WHEN HE BLEW BY THE KOBE STOPPER TO SET UP HORRY FOR THE GAME WINNER MUST HAVE FORGOT THAT, Bringing up shooting percentages is a useless thing to do because you'd have to eliminate many of Jordans,Iversons,tmacs, biggest games using that as a gage, if you actually watched the games YOU'D KNOW THERE REALLY IS NO STOPPING ANY GOOD OFFENSIVE NBA PLAYER, YOU CAN ONLY SLOW THEM THEY'RE ALL TOO GOOD TO STOP AND MOST TIMES THEY ROAST EACH OTHER TO VARYING DEGREES in the course of a game, ARTEST MAN PLEASE TELL HIM TO GET A JUMPSHOT AND A HANDLE, KOBE CAN'T BE STOPPED JUST SLOWED SOME BUT IN THE CLUTCH HE SCORES ANYWAY.


Actually, no. I watched both games, and Ron Artest humbled Kobe. Kobe did most of his damage against Trenton Hassell. As far as him blowing by Patterson--- One play doesn't make a game. Shooting % is an extremely accurate way to measure a players performance. Kobe chucked up a lot of shots and hit them at a very low %. I call it good defense.


----------



## Chops

*Kobe "Lover":* _"Kobe is the best player in the league!"_
*Kobe "Basher":* _"He is a bit overrated."_
*Kobe "Lover":* _"No he isn't, he has 3 rings and scores a lot of points."_
*Kobe "Basher":* _"Shaq creates a lot of easy opportunities for him."_
*Kobe "Lover":* _"You're just mad that the Kings lost."_
*Kobe "Basher":* _"What does that have to do with Kobe?"_
*Kobe "Lover":*_ "NaNa-NaNa Boo-Boo, you're just jealous."_
*Kobe "Basher":* _"Whatever...."_


----------



## OZZY

Why telling posters on how stupid it is to make this thread????

I didn't make it so crab at the person that did! I just posted on in, now way in hell I made it.


----------



## JGKoblenz

> Originally posted by KC
> Kobe "Lover": "NaNa-NaNa Boo-Boo, you're just jealous."


NaNa-NaNa Boo-Boo...Is that a american thing? Because I don't get it...:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## Louie

> Actually, no. I watched both games, and Ron Artest humbled Kobe. Kobe did most of his damage against Trenton Hassell. As far as him blowing by Patterson--- One play doesn't make a game. Shooting % is an extremely accurate way to measure a players performance. Kobe chucked up a lot of shots and hit them at a very low %. I call it good defense.


Thank you, KC. Jazzy1, I respect your opinions and belief in your player, but did you honestly watch those games? Artest did the most damage agaisnt Kobe defensively in the clutch, that's why the Lakers LOST BOTH TIMES TO THE WORST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE! Nobody's saying that Artest is better than Kobe, just that he is the best Kobe-defender. When people use the term "stopper" they don't mean that the defender shuts the guy down entirely. Nobody can do that to a great player like Kobe. What Artest did was cause Kobe to make enough turnovers and tough shots to swing the game in the Bulls' favor. Kobe did get most of his 38 against Hassell, a rookie, in the one game. He also got a few on breakaway dunks. Kobe never, in any sense of the word, "roasted" Artest as was stated.


----------



## jazzy1

KC you're mistaken Kobe scored most of his points in both games against Artest, not Hassel, Artest is their best defender and Kobe is the Lakers best perimeter player he torched Artest, and about shooting percentage who shot higher TMAC,PIERCE KOBE, IVERSON, Just curious since I've nailed down you're criteria I say that has little to do with overall performance in some instances, Bruce Bowen played good defense against Kobe made him shoot a low percentage but what did POPOVICH SAY ABOUT KOBE AND HOW GREAT HE WAS,his good defense did little when it mattered, same with CHRISTIE, and same with PATTERSON, Iverson always shoots low percentages, as well as TMac and Pierce but you'd probably consider them better than Kobe so your logic just doesn't hold up. I'd still take those guys even though they may shoot a lower percentage than other players I think WALLY FROM THE TWOLVES SHOOTS BETTER THAN THEM ALL BUT I WOULDN'T TAKE THEM OVER NEITHER PLAYER,


----------



## jazzy1

1.Kobe -46.9 % fg
2.Ray Allen-46.2% fg
3. Reggie Miller-45.3 % fg
4. TMac-45.1 % fg
5. Pierce- 44.2 % fg
6. Iverson - 39.8 % fg 

all stats are 2001-2002 source NBA.com

I guess using fg shooting that makes Kobe the best 2 guard in the league which makes him a top 5 player, that's why I don't like to use stats always as a barometer, but they don't lie either. I just listed who most people consider the top 2 guards in the league .


----------



## Chops

jazzy1, the logic is all twisted up. I am using FG % as a meter in which to measure the defensive performances against Kobe. Obviously, he shoots well from the field on average, but I would say that when he shoots 35.3% in a 3-game series, someone played pretty good defense on him. Artest forced him into a lot of turnovers and played great one-on-one defense. I still question your memory of the Bulls game because it is 2-1 in support of the idea that Kobe did most of his damage on Hassell.


----------



## OZZY

> I don't like to use stats always as a barometer, but they don't lie either.


Kobe Bryant 01-02 season averages

Points: 25.2
Rebounds: 5.5
Assits: 5.5



Tracy McGrady 01-02 averages

Points: 25.6
Rebounds: 7.9
Assits: 5.2 


I know this is taken out of context a little, but if stats don't lie then Tracy is the better basketball SG. And all this defending Kobe, Tracy could easily do it better than any player in the NBA. Forget about Artest and Bowden, great competition? Think about Tracy, he is better than Kobe at 6-8, he is just as athletic and is probably a way better leaper. Gets more rebounds and goes in the paint more which would also help him against Kobe. So when the Magic play the Lakers this year and hopefully Tracy has a good back and Hill is not injured. Because if that is the case, and Tracy doesn't have to carry all the scoring load, I think he would give hell to Kobe on defense!


----------



## Sir I Gotta Go

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> The guy who gave the RECAP OF THE BULLS GAME WHERE KOBE GETS 38 POINTS AND THEN SAYS HE GOT IT IN GARBAGE TIME IS WRONG KOBE ROASTED ARTEST AS PREVIOUSLY STATED, IT WASN'T GARBAGE TIME BECAUSE THE GAME WAS CLOSER THAN THAT , AND TO KC, He roasted PATTERSON as stated above did you not SEE THE LAST PLAY OF THE GAME WHEN HE BLEW BY THE KOBE STOPPER TO SET UP HORRY FOR THE GAME WINNER MUST HAVE FORGOT THAT, Bringing up shooting percentages is a useless thing to do because you'd have to eliminate many of Jordans,Iversons,tmacs, biggest games using that as a gage, if you actually watched the games YOU'D KNOW THERE REALLY IS NO STOPPING ANY GOOD OFFENSIVE NBA PLAYER, YOU CAN ONLY SLOW THEM THEY'RE ALL TOO GOOD TO STOP AND MOST TIMES THEY ROAST EACH OTHER TO VARYING DEGREES in the course of a game, ARTEST MAN PLEASE TELL HIM TO GET A JUMPSHOT AND A HANDLE, KOBE CAN'T BE STOPPED JUST SLOWED SOME BUT IN THE CLUTCH HE SCORES ANYWAY.



Actually Kobe scored mostly on Hassel. He scored about 15 points on Artest. Most of them came while he was on the bench.


----------



## shobe42

First of all Kobe and TMac played twice this year. Kobe rolled over TMAC in both games.(the 1st game especially). By the way I don't believe that that is the best way to judge who's better. I have many many other reasons of why Kobe is the best player in the league other than Shaq. I have posted those opinoins on many Kobe boards. 
kC, please grow up. You're defensive reasonings for Patterson were good however, but I think Patterson really makes a fool out of himself w/ all of his preseries trash talk especially when KB beat his @$$ on every big play. 
Finally Artest was upset after Kb and his 2nd game. He said something like he scored 38 pts on me. How did I do good? So according to Artest the pts were scored on him not on Hassel.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> kC, please grow up. You're defensive reasonings for Patterson were good however, but I think Patterson really makes a fool out of himself w/ all of his preseries trash talk especially when KB beat his @$$ on every big play.


Whatever Patterson may or may do off the court, it doesn't have anything to do with how he plays...Bryant was held to .353 FG% over 3 games being guarded by Patterson...That's good defense.


----------



## absolutebest

Artest then Bowen.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> KC, please grow up. You're defensive reasonings for Patterson were good however, but I think Patterson really makes a fool out of himself w/ all of his preseries trash talk especially when KB beat his @$$ on every big play.


First of all,  

Second of all,


----------



## Ron

I don't think so, KC...look at your post. You are maximizing the rhetoric with the so-called "Kobe lovers" and minimizing the rhetoric with the so-called "Kobe bashers."

That's an old (very old) debating trick.

Let's put everything on the table, and set it nicely, okay?


----------



## Ron

OZZY, I have been a Laker fan longer than you've been alive. Sure, I am a Kobe backer. His talent, skill, and play has been an extremely large reason the Lakers are three-time defending world champions.

If Kobe played on your team and earned you a title, you'd feel the same way now, wouldn't you?


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>Ron</b>!
> I don't think so, KC...look at your post. You are maximizing the rhetoric with the so-called "Kobe lovers" and minimizing the rhetoric with the so-called "Kobe bashers."
> 
> That's an old (very old) debating trick.
> 
> Let's put everything on the table, and set it nicely, okay?


Hmm, yes in a response to X Factor. I don't see what that has to do with Ruben Patterson though....


----------



## STING

Nice, finally i can talk about kobe being a jackass to my heart's content. But now, I'm kind of tired of it, so i'm taking a break.


----------



## Ron

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Hmm, yes in a response to X Factor. I don't see what that has to do with Ruben Patterson though....


What did you do with the post I was referring to? I guess I should have quoted it...


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>Ron</b>!
> 
> 
> What did you do with the post I was referring to? I guess I should have quoted it...


It's at the end of page 2. I understand what you are saying, but that post was a sarcastic reply to X Factors imaginary "conversation". I don't see what it has to do with "growing up" or Ruben Patterson....


----------



## OZZY

Actually Ron, I would not like Kobe if he was on "my team", I would tolerate him, but I would not like him!!! 

And I will turn it back on you, would you like Kobe if he was on a team you absolutely hate to death??????


----------



## OZZY

Plus:

Everyone on here always says who can stop Kobe, and the "KOBE BACKERS" say no one!!!:laugh: 
But when I say Tracy McGrady they say, no Kobe killed him. But what did Tracy do against Kobe on offense himself? I think he did just fine, so how about who can stop Tracy? FOR ONCE!

Kobe sure as hell can't, can't even come close! Tracy is more explosive, has just as good of handle, is really improving on his deep shots. Has a great to the hoop game and there is not a player that can block him going up. Can out jump Kobe easy, has longer arms like I said. 

WHO CAN STOP TRACY???? Also take Shaq out of it, because if it ever seems like Kobe can, it might help to have a great defensive force down low that can block shots don't ya think? 

All of this, Kobe is un-guardable, well Tracy is just as good, and if a better defensive player also, and is obviously a better rebounder........


----------



## Pinball

There is really no point to these Kobe threads anymore. Whether you like Kobe or dislike him your argument will not be heard. Guys like Ozzy and KC can make all of the valid points about Kobe that they want to and the pro-Kobe peeps won't hear it and vice versa. I think this thread has become meaningless.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> *Kobe "Lover":* _"Kobe is the best player in the league!"_
> *Kobe "Basher":* _"He is a bit overrated."_
> *Kobe "Lover":* _"No he isn't, he has 3 rings and scores a lot of points."_
> *Kobe "Basher":* _"Shaq creates a lot of easy opportunities for him."_
> *Kobe "Lover":* _"You're just mad that the Kings lost."_
> *Kobe "Basher":* _"What does that have to do with Kobe?"_
> *Kobe "Lover":*_ "NaNa-NaNa Boo-Boo, you're just jealous."_
> *Kobe "Basher":* _"Whatever...."_


Once again Kobe Haters try to make Kobe Backers sound childish.

Have you noticed that Kobe Haters start all these threads, not Kobe Backers?!!!!!!!! Because you have the Kobe "Lover" starting that conversation of yours.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> Once again Kobe Haters try to make Kobe Backers sound childish.
> 
> Have you noticed that Kobe Haters start all these threads, not Kobe Backers?!!!!!!!! Because you have the Kobe "Lover" starting that conversation of yours.


Funny you say that, considering that this very thread was started by a Lakers fan and another thread half-way down the page reminding readers not to bash Kobe since it is his birthday was also started by a Lakers fan. Not to mention most of the other Kobe vs. T-Mac threads started by Lakers fans. Oh, how could I forget the "Why does everyone hate Kobe" thread, started by a Lakers fan. Just leave it be....


----------



## Chops

Another Kobe thread started by a Lakers fan....

http://basketballboards.net/showthread.php?threadid=5377


----------



## Chops

Another....

http://basketballboards.net/showthread.php?threadid=4924


----------



## <<<D>>>

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Plus:
> 
> Everyone on here always says who can stop Kobe, and the "KOBE BACKERS" say no one!!!:laugh:
> But when I say Tracy McGrady they say, no Kobe killed him. But what did Tracy do against Kobe on offense himself? I think he did just fine, so how about who can stop Tracy? FOR ONCE!
> 
> Kobe sure as hell can't, can't even come close! Tracy is more explosive, has just as good of handle, is really improving on his deep shots. Has a great to the hoop game and there is not a player that can block him going up. Can out jump Kobe easy, has longer arms like I said.
> 
> WHO CAN STOP TRACY???? Also take Shaq out of it, because if it ever seems like Kobe can, it might help to have a great defensive force down low that can block shots don't ya think?
> 
> All of this, Kobe is un-guardable, well Tracy is just as good, and if a better defensive player also, and is obviously a better rebounder........



Kobe and Tmac are both all around great players.
The biggest difference is.....
Kobe is clutch and he hits the big baskets. Everyone knows that

T-Mac has yet to prove that, sure he has the rock in the final mins or seconds, but where's the results??? He can certainly lead his team to the playoff's but that doesn't define the term clutch

To be great, you need to come up big, and Kobe has proven that
this is what seperates the 2 thus far.


----------



## Chops

This is fun. Here is another one....

http://basketballboards.net/showthread.php?threadid=4394


----------



## Chops

This time the culprit is IV....

http://basketballboards.net/showthread.php?threadid=4479


----------



## Chops

Changed your views yet, X? Here is another one to mull over....


http://basketballboards.net/showthread.php?threadid=3897


----------



## Chops

This is my favorite! "Describe Kobe with one word". Hmmm, you guessed it. Started by a Lakers fan....

http://basketballboards.net/showthread.php?threadid=3642


----------



## Damian Necronamous

http://www.basketballboards.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4672 

You seem to have forgotten this one


----------



## Chops

Kobe or T-Mac?

http://basketballboards.net/showthread.php?threadid=2754


----------



## Damian Necronamous

And this one:
http://www.basketballboards.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4125


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> http://www.basketballboards.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4672
> 
> You seem to have forgotten this one


What? I haven't forgotten anything. It was never my argument that Kobe "Haters" never start these threads. You claimed that it was always Kobe "Haters" starting the threads and thus, starting the controversy. My point is that, for all the times Lakers fans cry foul, you would think that they would stay away from initiating these threads. Instead, about 80% of all Kobe threads are started by LAKERS FANS!! That's why I say, leave it be....


----------



## Damian Necronamous

Oh yes, and this one by...you:
http://www.basketballboards.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2025


----------



## Chops

Posted by *The X Factor*:

_*Have you noticed that Kobe Haters start all these threads, not Kobe Backers?!!!!!!!!*_


----------



## Chops

Quotes are fun....


----------



## Damian Necronamous

I was wrong about actually "starting" the threads.

But they do seem to get the arguments heated the most.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Quotes are fun....


Hahaha...no:no:.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> Hahaha...no:no:.


Yeah, not when you get proven wrong.... :sigh:


----------



## Damian Necronamous

Great comeback, it's got me shaken in my boots, j/k.

I do have to admit, I love arguing with KC, it gets fun:yes:.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> This is fun. Here is another one....
> 
> http://basketballboards.net/showthread.php?threadid=4394


This one was good. Hmmm, who got this one heated? Looks like the guy who started the thread. A Lakers fan....

_"Title edited. Please don't call members of the board names just because they have a different opinion than yours."_ -- DP


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> Great comeback, it's got me shaken in my boots, j/k.
> 
> I do have to admit, I love arguing with KC, it gets fun:yes:.


It wasn't meant to get you shaking. You know you are wrong. I completed my objective....To disprove this quote:

_Have you noticed that Kobe Haters start all these threads, not Kobe Backers?!!!!!!!!_

I'm done now....


----------



## Damian Necronamous

Geez, ok


----------



## Ron

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Actually Ron, I would not like Kobe if he was on "my team", I would tolerate him, but I would not like him!!!
> 
> And I will turn it back on you, would you like Kobe if he was on a team you absolutely hate to death??????


I don't hate any team, Ozzy...I'm 44 years old, I outgrew all that "I hate so-and-so team" many years ago! (Like when I was 15, maybe...  ).

I enjoy the game of basketball as a fan...sure I'm a Lakers fan, but that doesn't mean I *hate* the Kings, Blazers, Spurs, etc. I enjoy watching all these teams play, but I root for the Lakers when they play these other teams...that's the way it should be.


----------



## Ron

Come on KC, can't you just stick to discussing basketball? Why does everything have to be a fan battle with you?

Please don't go back-and-forth with other posters...I can't remember how many times we've had this discussion.

That goes for everybody else, too...if this thread can't stick to bashing or praising Kobe, then I'll close this down as well...please don't go after each other because that person has a different opinion than yours. (!)


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>Ron</b>!
> Come on KC, can't you just stick to discussing basketball? Why does everything have to be a fan battle with you?
> 
> Please don't go back-and-forth with other posters...I can't remember how many times we've had this discussion.
> 
> That goes for everybody else, too...if this thread can't stick to bashing or praising Kobe, then I'll close this down as well...please don't go after each other because that person has a different opinion than yours. (!)



I wasn't battling anyone. He stated an opinion as if it were fact and I responded with evidence that proved he was wrong.


----------



## Chops

Look, if it came off as "battling", I apologize. However, I don't see it as that, which is why I have a hard time preventing it. I can't see the difference from this and how I always post.


----------



## STING

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whooo, X really got himself in a jam there :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## jazzy1

I see KC you tried to change up the SUBJECT on me see everytime I shoot you down you come with another topic I used YOUR OWN ARGUMENT AGAINST YOU REFERING TO THE SHOOTING PERCENTAGE, AND OF COURSE A KOBE DISLIKER GUY WOULD SAY SOMETHING TO SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT SO 2-1 MEANS NOTHING OR SHALL I DISPROVE YOU OF THIS ONE TOO ,Kobe smoked ARTEST think of the logic why wouldn't CARTWRIGHT PUT HIS BEST DEFENDER ON KOBE IF HE WAS SMOKING HASSEL, , HE DID THAT'S WHY KOBE THEN SMOKED ARTEST I BELIEVE CARTWRIGHT IS A SMART COACH AND DEFENSE IS THE KEY COMPONENT ARTEST BRINGS TO THE TABLE WHY WOULD HE SPEND ALL NIGHT DEFENDING THE JUGGERNAUT THAT IS RICK FOX, DON'T MAKE SENSE DOES IT, 

I CAN ACCEPT IT IF YOU DON'T LIKE KOBE IF JUST FOR PERSONAL REASONS BUT THERE'S NOTHING ANALYTICAL YOU CAN SAY TO DISCREDIT HIS OFFENSIVE PROWESS OR HIS ABILITY TO SMOKE ANY GUY YOU CAN NAME, If you have something analytical to say bring it but of not fall back on your I JUST DON'T LIKE THE GUY PREMISE, which is fine but has nothing to do with basketball,


----------



## Chops

What are you talking about? My argument was never about Kobe's FG % for the entire regular season. That isn't changing the subject. That is sticking to the point. The point is that he shot a very low % against the Blazers. That is a fact. Kobe did not smoke Artest. Cartwright took him out because he was throwing up bad shots. He brought more stability to the offense with Hassell. Since you've been gone another person has chimed in. 3-1, I guess you think your opinion is better than 3 other peoples opinion? Hassell is a rookie and Kobe abused him. Artest held his own. I don't hate Kobe, stick to basketball. Follow your own advise....


----------



## TheRifleman

One thing I learned early on in debate is that one never really changes the mind of another person, even when using "logic", because personal opinion can and does outweigh "logic".

Kobe is a great player - he is just not my favorite player. Personal opinion is subjective and always will be.

There is an old song that says:

<b>"Know when to fold 'em"</b>

Knowing when to fold 'em or when to walk away is a thing of wisdom.


----------



## jazzy1

You're changing the subject to suit your argument you brought up shooting percentage to determine the effectiveness of players or something to that effect NOT ME, I just dealt with it, I said it didn't matter the percentages because he still brought stats and smoked those guys I wish I had a tape of that game to show you , but anyway, NO GREAT NBA PLAYER CAN BE STOPPED DOESN'T HAPPEN GUYS ARE ONLY SLOWED Does Artest make it harder for KOBE ,YES, but how come when Kobe puts up numbers the bashers always say oh it was against someone else, it's first thsi guy locked him up then it's he smoked the other guy on the team , VERY CURIOUS, I have no problem admitting ARTEST, PATTERSON, BOWEN, CHRISTIE ALL MAKE IT HARD BUT THEY MAKE IT HARD GOR EVERYONE BUT KOBE STILL MAKES THE PLAYS THAT COUNT AND STILL GETS HIS NUMBERS, THERE ARE WAY MORE BASHERS HERE THAN SUPPROTERS SO WHY COUNT LIKE YOU'RE TAKING A POLL LETS DEBATE THE FACTS LIKE FG PERCENTAGES, or any othe gage you can think of to prove what you're saying find it somewhere it says this guy shut him down relative to his stats against someone else, There's no quantative gage to determine that these guys or any other guy stopped a guy 38 and 26 points against the bulls seem pretty shut down to me. Stop using things that can't be proven to support your arguments unless we all sit there and watch the tape together how are we to solve this than to look at the game tape or the stats, KOBE IS TOP 5 IN THE LEAGUE BASED ON BEING 1ST TEAM ALL NBA THATS A FACT, WHAT FACT DO YOU HAVE TO DISPROVE THAT, YOU CAN SAY HE ISN'T TOP 5 TO YOU THAN THERE'S NO ARGUMENT BECAUSE THERE'S NO CRITERIA TO BACK UP YOUR POINT , IT WAS Hassel not Artest when we look at the numbers ,Pippen not Patterson on this one, fg percentage on this one but he still got these overall numbers, ONCE AGAIN NUMBERS MEAN VERY LITTLE IVERSON HAS TERRIBLE NUMBERS SOMETIMES BUT HE'S ALL WAYS EFFECTIVE NO MATTER HOW MANY HE MISSES,JORDAN THE SAME WAY IN HIS PRIME PUT UP BAD FG GAMES BUT IF YOU WATCHED THE GAMES HE MAKES ALL THE GREAT PLAYS SAME WITH KOBE.


----------



## STING




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## jazzy1

And to Louie why are you changing the definiton of the term KOBE STOPPER ITS SELF EXPLANATORY I HEARD PATTERSON SAY IT HIMSELF HE SAID HE COULD STOP KOBE BRYANT maybe you don't think of that term in that way but its original intent as used by the guy who said it was to STOP KOBE BRYANT thats the spirit of what was said , I won't apply that to ARTEST because he's actually never said it so it doesn't apply to him, Artest was guarding Bryant I totally refute your claim because I saw the game and Artest did do a good JOB against Kobe but he still got ROASTED BY HIM MOST OF THE GAME SO now I guess your going to define the word roasted to me. WHEN I SAY ROASTED I REALLY MEAN SCORED ON HIM OR WAS ABLE TO CREATE A SHOT UNIMPEDED pretty easily which he did at some points, Thats MY DEFINITION, maybe different than yours but thats up to interpretation, YEAH THE LAKERS LOST TO JUST ABOUT EVERY LAST PLACE TEAM SO WHAT THEY'RE STILL THE WORLD CHAMPS, JUST LIKE THE BULLS USED TO BE, probably will again when the Lakers are disinterested before the playoffs, WHY DOES KOBE NEED HIS 38 NEED TO BE DISCREDITED BY YOU BY SAYING HASSEL THE ROOKIE HE'S SMOKED A LOT OF VETS TOO INCLUDING ARTEST, REALLY A SILLY ARGUMENT BUT OH WELL LETS GO.


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## Chops

One thing I will not argue against is incompetence. Do you think that by capatilizing every other word, you make me want to read your 1 paragraph post? What it does is make me want to ignore it. I'll lay out my argument in simple steps so that you can follow it:

Step 1
Kobe shoots a high FG % on average. Kobe shot a low FG % in a 3-game series against the Blazers. Whether it was a bad series or he got defended well, he shot a low FG %. If you watched the games, Ruben Patterson played good defense. I am not changing the subject. I am not manipulating it in any way either. I am defending it. If you want to beat around the bush and say that I am changing the subject when I am not, then that is up to you. That is all I have to say on that.

Step 2
I am not trying to prove that anyone can shut down Kobe. You put words in my mouth and call me a "hater", which takes away from your argument, IMO. Stick to the topic.

Step 3
Kobe's FG % on average during the season was around 46%, that is a very good number. What does that have to do with Ruben Patterson and Ron Artest? I'm still trying to figure it out...

Step 4
Kobe did most of his damage against Trenton Hassell. Now, whatever you want to do with this fact is your decision. If you want to dispute it, fine. You are wrong, but go ahead and argue until you are blue in the face. Kobe didn't torch Artest.

Step5
Whether or not Kobe still got his stats is irrelevant. He averages around 20 shots per game, but that went up during the Portland series. All his stats prove is that he took more shots to get his good numbers. When Allen Iverson shoots 9-34 and scores 30 points, is that effective basketball? Not in my opinion. If you believe that shooting a low % and shooting until you reach your average is good, well, then that is your opinion. To me, a low FG % signifies that the player had more difficulty scoring than usual. Most of the time, that is due to better defense. However, if you want to believe that Kobe wasn't on his game or that he had another bad cheese-burger, then that is up to you.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> I guess you think your opinion is better than 3 other peoples opinion?


Just because three people all think the same thing it doesn't mean it's right. And he actually never said his opinion was better than yours. 

When Darwin first came up with his theory of evolution it was millions against one. Were the millions right.... no!

Just because you have two other people that think the same thing as you, it doesn't make your argument any stronger at all.:no:


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> Just because three people all think the same thing it doesn't mean it's right. And he actually never said his opinion was better than yours.
> 
> When Darwin first came up with his theory of evolution it was millions against one. Were the millions right.... no!
> 
> Just because you have two other people that think the same thing as you, it doesn't make your argument any stronger at all.:no:


Never said it did....If 4 people saw the same game, and 3 have one vision of how Kobe scored his points, and 1 has another vision. Well....


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## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> This one was good. Hmmm, who got this one heated? Looks like the guy who started the thread. A Lakers fan....
> 
> _"Title edited. Please don't call members of the board names just because they have a different opinion than yours."_ -- DP


Actually the guy who started the thread didn't get it heated at all.

Do you know what I meant when I said heated? I meant when something starts to get more into an argument that a discussion. There is nothing wrong with what the person who started the thread said.

HEATLUNATIC got it heated by saying (and I quote): 
The Fakers without Kobe are okay,but the Fakers without Shaq would be the WORST team in the league! Kobe - Shaq = SUCKAAAAAAAAAA!!!


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## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Never said it did....If 4 people saw the same game, and 3 have one vision of how Kobe scored his points, and 1 has another vision. Well....


It still doesn't make the 3 who have the same vision as you right. Having more people that have the same opinion as you doesn't prove anything.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> Just because three people all think the same thing it doesn't mean it's right. And he actually never said his opinion was better than yours.
> 
> When Darwin first came up with his theory of evolution it was millions against one. Were the millions right.... no!
> 
> Just because you have two other people that think the same thing as you, it doesn't make your argument any stronger at all.:no:


Let me better explain it X:

- 4 people are wathing a football game.
- Randy Moss scores a TD.
- 3 of the guys say, "Wow, Champ Bailey really got toasted!"
- 1 guy says, "No, that was Fred Smoot."
- Replays clearly show that it was Bailey.
- The guy still says, "No, it was Fred Smoot!"


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> It still doesn't make the 3 who have the same vision as you right. Having more people that have the same opinion as you doesn't prove anything.


Again, I never said it did. I don't know what you are trying to prove....


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## Damian Necronamous

Was there any replay about what you're talking about?


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## TheRifleman

<b>"When Darwin first came up with his theory of evolution it was millions against one. Were the millions right.... no!"</b>

A theory is an hypothesis, and that is NOT a "fact" - so that does little for me in any "debate". 

Try another avenue, if you think it is possible to change the mind of any person's personal opinion on any player, much less Kobe.


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## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Again, I never said it did. I don't know what you are trying to prove....


It's quite clear what I'm trying to prove, just read the other 2 or 3 posts I've made about this.


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## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> <b>"When Darwin first came up with his theory of evolution it was millions against one. Were the millions right.... no!"</b>
> 
> A theory is an hypothesis, and that is NOT a "fact" - so that does little for me in any "debate".
> 
> Try another avenue, if you think it is possible to change the mind of any person's personal opinion on any player, much less Kobe.


Let me ask you a question...Do you think God created animals?

Just asking.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> It's quite clear what I'm trying to prove, just read the other 2 or 3 posts I've made about this.


3 peoples opinion isn't always greater than 1. I agree. What's your point?


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## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> 3 peoples opinion isn't always greater than 1. I agree. What's your point?


My point is what you just said...3 people's opinion isn't always greater than one.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually the guy who started the thread didn't get it heated at all.
> 
> Do you know what I meant when I said heated? I meant when something starts to get more into an argument that a discussion. There is nothing wrong with what the person who started the thread said.
> 
> HEATLUNATIC got it heated by saying (and I quote):
> The Fakers without Kobe are okay,but the Fakers without Shaq would be the WORST team in the league! Kobe - Shaq = SUCKAAAAAAAAAA!!!


I know what you mean by heated. I'm not a moron. When a person posts a title that implies that all Kobe "bashers" are idiots, well that starts the friction....


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> My point is what you just said...3 people's opinion isn't always greater than one.


Ok, good job, I guess....


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## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> I know what you mean by heated. I'm not a moron. When a person posts a title that implies that all Kobe "bashers" are idiots, well that starts the friction....


No one complained about the title besides the moderator.

It looked like people looked more at what he said than at the title.

What I'm trying to say is, the title didn't get the argument heated. 

Andnd I know you're not a moron.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> No one complained about the title besides the moderator.
> 
> It looked like people looked more at what he said than at the title.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is, the title didn't get the argument heated.
> 
> Andnd I know you're not a moron.


Ok, I got you. About Darwin, he has a theory. The millions of people that don't agree with it aren't wrong.


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## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Ok, I got you. About Darwin, he has a theory. The millions of people that don't agree with it aren't wrong.


Ok, but I don't want to say anything about Darwin, because having an argument about him would just be flat out stupid.

LOL


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## Chops

Agreed.


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> Let me ask you a question...Do you think God created animals?
> 
> Just asking.


You're missing the "point" of my post! It has nothing to do with "God" or Darwin. 

A theory is an hypothesis, therefore NOT a fact. 

Personal opinions are subjective, as is any "theory" - therefore to debate about the personal opinion of posters who do not like the same player I do - it is therefore fruitless and not something that has a right or a wrong answer! IT IS <b>a personal OPINION!</b>

Debate does NOT change the mind of a person's opinion because opinions are NOT facts, just as theories are NOT facts. That is the point I was making. Your analogy about Darwin and his THEORY is as non-factual as personal opinion.

I hope this clears up my reply for you.


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## jazzy1

Do we have to go this route again please since you started I'll finish, 

STEP ! 
YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT CAN'T SAY A WOLE LOT TO REFUTE THIS POINT YOU HAVE ME THERE, BUT It's interesting that you now say maybe he had a bad serie, I have said Patterson played good defense but Kobe still played good offense, you can still play a good game when you shoot a bad fg percentage. 

Step 2
This I find the most curious you say Kobe shot bad say it was because of great defense then say I'm not saying Kobe could be stopped hmm You do SIP FROM THE ADE SOME TIME WHEN IT COMES TO KOBE 

Step 3

DON'T YOU GET THIS YOU MENTIONED FG PERCENTAGES AS A GAGE OF EFFECTIVENESS, I said Kobe still played well in both cases despite struggling with his shot sometime struggling with your shot has nothing to do with defense and more to do with SHOT SELECTION OR JUST NOT HITTING YOUR SHOTS, But my contention is that it's not the gauge all the time you think it is because Kobe still made plays with ease against both guys, you posted the stats for the whole post season just about as if to say Kobe struggled and didn't play well which flies in the face of the fact the he was great once again this post season. 


Step 4 
This is ridiculous you state this as fact so where is it do you see this charted anywhere how is this a fact the fact is he had 26 and 38 points against the Bulls, thats the fact against Hassel or Artest is an OPINION BECAUSE NEITHER OF US CAN PROVE THIS. 

Step 5 
This is my favorite , Allen Iverson shot a low percentage I guess and was MVP of the League, In the same seriies against Toronto and Indiana and Bucks HE WOULD HAVE A BIG GAME MAYBE 50 THEN COME BACK AND GO 9-30 THEN COME BACK AND SCORE 40 OR 50 AGAIN HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN ALL OF A SUDDEN THE OPPOSING TEAM BRINGS IN A SECRET WEAPON OR SOMETHING NO HE SHOT BAD PLAIN AND SIMPLE, NO ONE ON EITHER OF THOSE TEAMS COULD STOP HIM JUST HIM SHOOTING BAD AND TAKING BAD SHOTS, I AGREE DEFENSE CAN EFFECT FG PERCENTAGE BUT NOT SOMETIMES AND THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING, Some big guys shoot high percentages take big Todd from Jersey but I wouldn't take him over Iverson thats ridiculous just because he shoots higher fg percentage, What should GREAT PLAYERS DO STOP SHOOTING BECAUSE THEY'RE HAVING A BAD GAME NO JORDAN WOULDN'T BE CONSIDERED THE GREATEST IF THAT WAS A SOUND THEORY, THEY HAVE TO KEEP SHOOTING BECAUSE THERE TEAMS DEPEND ON THEIR SCORING, YOU WOULDN'T SAY THAT IF THIS ARGUMENT APPLIED TO JORDAN, YES I BELIEVE SCORERS SHOULD KEEP SHOOTING IF THATS WHAT THEIR TEAM NEEDS THEM TO DO EVEN IF THEY AREN'T REALLY MAKING A HIGH PERCENTAGE, THAT'S WHY KG GETS CRITICIZED NOT SHOOTING ENOUGH WHEN THE TEAM NEED IT OR BEING AGRESSIVE ENOUGH.


----------



## jazzy1

and thanks KC for arguing my point for me about the three people thing couldn't have said it better nyself, FIND IT CURIOUS THAT YOUR ADMITTING TO BEING A KOBE HATER THOUGH.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> You're missing the "point" of my post! It has nothing to do with "God" or Darwin.
> 
> A theory is an hypothesis, therefore NOT a fact.
> 
> Personal opinions are subjective, as is any "theory" - therefore to debate about the personal opinion of posters who do not like the same player I do - it is therefore fruitless and not something that has a right or a wrong answer! IT IS <b>a personal OPINION!</b>
> 
> Debate does NOT change the mind of a person's opinion because opinions are NOT facts, just as theories are NOT facts. That is the point I was making. Your analogy about Darwin and his THEORY is as non-factual as personal opinion.
> 
> I hope this clears up my reply for you.


Science has proven that Darwin's theory isn't just some opinion out of the blue.

When Darwin first came up with his theory many people did not believe him at all. Now after scientific advances we now know that Darwin's theory is true. We are now even teaching it in schools.

Charles Darwin's theory has proven to be more than a lame opinion.

I'm done arguing about Darwin for now...this is a basketball forum.


----------



## Chops

You seem to be arguing over nothing. That isn't a bash, but I never said Kobe didn't have good games or that the defenders shut him down. I merely stated that Ruben Patterson plays the best defense on him. I pointed out FG % to back up my opinion. Nothing more.... In the two games Artest played as a bull against the Lakers:

Artest- 70 minutes
Bryant- 88 minutes

I at least have some sort of statistic and the minds of others who watched the game to support my argument. You have nothing.

As far as Iverson, he is expected to shoot a low %. With Kobe, it is totally different. He shot a low %, which is NOT normal for him.


----------



## TheRifleman

I'm glad you're done with Darwin, as you were the one who brought him into the discussion. 

My "opinion" of Kobe is still this:

He is a great player - but not my favorite player. THAT is personal opinion, which is not a fact. It is a subjective analysis, sort of like a theory. :|


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> and thanks KC for arguing my point for me about the three people thing couldn't have said it better nyself, FIND IT CURIOUS THAT YOUR ADMITTING TO BEING A KOBE HATER THOUGH.


This is where you are wrong. They are two different types of opinions. It isn't like 3 people said T-Mac is better than Kobe and 1 disputed that, and I crowned my side the winner. This was an actual game that was played and 3 accounts of what happened in that game. If you ever are in court for robbery or whatever, and 3 people give the same story, and you give a different one, well you are gonna be in jail.....


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> Now after scientific advances we now know that Darwin's theory is true.


:no:


----------



## Damian Necronamous

Well, basically true...not completely, but we do know God doesn't make animals.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> Well, basically true...not completely, but we do know God doesn't make animals.


We do?


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> Well, basically true...not completely, but we do know God doesn't make animals.


"Basically"??

A theory is called a theory because it can't be proven or disproven. Facts are objective - theories and opinions are subjective!

I thought you were done with this subject <b>Of Darwin</b> that you brought up? 

Kobe is a great player; he is just not my favorite player. No facts, just MY opinion.


----------



## Chops

If Darwin's _theory_ was proven to be true, it would be called "Darwin's _LAW_ of Evolution".


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> We do?


Please don't tell me you think God makes animals...please.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> Please don't tell me you think God makes animals...please.


According to the Bible...Do you have any evidence to refute it?


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> If Darwin's _theory_ was proven to be true. It would be called "Darwin's _LAW_ of Evolution".


Ahhhh, <b>BRAVO!</b> I think you see what I am getting at, KC. The correlation between theory and personal opinion - AND debate. Facts can be debated far easier, whereas opinions and theories cannot.


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## Damian Necronamous

Excuse me here, I don't mean to offend anyone, but something written in the Bible doesn't make it true at all.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> According to the Bible...Do you have any evidence to refute it?


Also there are a lot of scientists that have more knowledge than everyone who has posted in this thread combined that would strongly disagree with you.

Right, back to Kobe...He's not the best player in the league, but I would definitely rank him and T-Mac tied at 3 behind Shaq and Duncan.


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> Excuse me here, I don't mean to offend anyone, but something written in the Bible doesn't make it true at all.


That's NOT what KC said. He asked you IF you could prove the bible account of animal creation is not true. That is not saying it is true - it is merely asking you IF you can disprove it!!

So, therefore the bible is as much a "theory" (UNPROVABLE) as well as is Darwin. Hope that clears it up for you. 

One thinks Kobe is the best player and another person does not agree. Personal opinions are like theories - I can't "prove" that Kobe is or is NOT the best player in the league.


----------



## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> Excuse me here, I don't mean to offend anyone, but something written in the Bible doesn't make it true at all.


thanks, but you're challenging my religious beliefs here. i don't believe in evolution. i believe that the Lord created all, as stated in the Bible. that doesn't make me neither right nor wrong, but it's my belief.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> Excuse me here, I don't mean to offend anyone, but something written in the Bible doesn't make it true at all.


LOL, Again, I never said it did. You asked if I believed that God made animals, and then I asked if you have any evidence to dispute my opinion either way. You seem to believe that God did not create animals. However, a scientist just offers up more opinions. More educated? Perhaps...Opinion, none-the-less.


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## Damian Necronamous

The 3 best players at defedning Kobe are (in my opinion):

1. Andrei Kirilenko (Basically shut Kobe down in the 2nd half of a game earlier this year. Kirilenko wasn't guarding Kobe in the first half and I believe Kobe got 26 points, when Kirilenko got on him in the 2nd half he only had about 3 points.)

2. Bruce Bowen (A solid defender that doesn't shut Kobe down, but doesn't let Kobe break out for 40 point games.)

3. Ruben Patterson (Kobe still scores in the 20s against him, but Ruben brings his FG% down by a bit. Sorry Ruben, you're not the best at containing Kobe)


----------



## k^2

If evolution occured then why are there still monkeys? Get your scientist friends to answer that. You don't truly beleive that we as humans "evolved" from tiny particles that floated around in space.


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## jazzy1

Come on KC I already shot down YOUR STATS , and still what have you said is a fact about the BULLS GAMES ITS JUST AN OPINION STOP CLAIMING OPINIONS AS FACTS THEY'RE NOT, IF 4 PEOPLE SAT IN A ROOM AND3 WERE KINGS FANS AND ONE WAS A LAKER FAN AND SHAQ WAS KNOCKED DOWN THE THREE KINGS FANS WOULD SAY CHARGE AND THE LAKER FAN WOULD SAY HE WAS FOULED, THOSE ARE JUST OPINIONS NOW WHEN THE REF SAYS SHAQ WAS FOULED WHO DOES THAT MAKE RIGHT I GUESS THE LAKER FAN RIGHT, OR WOULD YOU SAY IT WAS A BAD CALL, thats what we have here the fact is he scored 26 and 38 and the opinion is on whom did he score the points, 

AS FOR EXAMPLE OF THE ROBBERY QUESTION IF THE 3 WHO SAID IT WERE PIMPS AND THE ONE WAS A JUDGE WHO WOULD YOU BELIEVE THEN IT JUST BECOMES PIMPS BABBLE COMPARED TO THE JUDGES CREDIBLITY, I'd take my chances in court with that, I'm done here you're bringing up ridiculous examples that I shoot down we're not even talking about basketball anymore which you seem to do when your arguments start getting WEAK I CAN TELL YOU ARGUING DARWIN IN A BASKETBALL THREAD, BRING UP ROBBERIES, I'm gonna be the bigger man and bail on non basketball related topics we can discuss that in another forum.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> LOL, Again, I never said it did. You asked if I believed that God made animals, and then I asked if you have any evidence to dispute my opinion either way. You seem to believe that God did not create animals. However, a scientist just offers up more opinions. More educated? Perhaps...Opinion, none-the-less.


I'm saying that there is much more evidence on Darwin's THEORY evolution than there is on the THEORY that God created all creatures.

There is also more evidence on the THEORY that Earth was created by another planet exploding and creating millions of other planets, than there is on the THEORY that God created the earth.

Once again...I do not mean to offend anyone.

Can we please get back to talking about Kobe?


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm saying that there is much more evidence on Darwin's THEORY evolution than there is on the THEORY that God created all creatures.
> 
> There is also more evidence on the THEORY that Earth was created by another planet exploding and creating millions of other planets, than there is on the THEORY that God created the earth.
> 
> Once again...I do not mean to offend anyone.
> 
> Can we please get back to talking about Kobe?


There is? Would you care to explain this evidence?


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>k^2</b>!
> If evolution occured then why are there still monkeys? Get your scientist friends to answer that. You don't truly beleive that we as humans "evolved" from tiny particles that floated around in space.


You want to know what I believe?

I believe that we evolved from the apes. Some apes did not evolve as you would know if you were taught this in school.

Most likely the first land creatures evolved from fish that grew legs and came up onto the shore. 

I explained that last sentence poorly, but I've been out of school for about 3 months now, so I can't remember it all.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> There is? Would you care to explain this evidence?


Geez!!!! Have you ever been to school?! Seriously...almost everyone knows this theory.

Would YOU care to explain why you think God created everything?

Once again, no offence to any church goers.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Come on KC I already shot down YOUR STATS , and still what have you said is a fact about the BULLS GAMES ITS JUST AN OPINION STOP CLAIMING OPINIONS AS FACTS THEY'RE NOT, IF 4 PEOPLE SAT IN A ROOM AND3 WERE KINGS FANS AND ONE WAS A LAKER FAN AND SHAQ WAS KNOCKED DOWN THE THREE KINGS FANS WOULD SAY CHARGE AND THE LAKER FAN WOULD SAY HE WAS FOULED, THOSE ARE JUST OPINIONS NOW WHEN THE REF SAYS SHAQ WAS FOULED WHO DOES THAT MAKE RIGHT I GUESS THE LAKER FAN RIGHT, OR WOULD YOU SAY IT WAS A BAD CALL, thats what we have here the fact is he scored 26 and 38 and the opinion is on whom did he score the points,
> 
> AS FOR EXAMPLE OF THE ROBBERY QUESTION IF THE 3 WHO SAID IT WERE PIMPS AND THE ONE WAS A JUDGE WHO WOULD YOU BELIEVE THEN IT JUST BECOMES PIMPS BABBLE COMPARED TO THE JUDGES CREDIBLITY, I'd take my chances in court with that, I'm done here you're bringing up ridiculous examples that I shoot down we're not even talking about basketball anymore which you seem to do when your arguments start getting WEAK I CAN TELL YOU ARGUING DARWIN IN A BASKETBALL THREAD, BRING UP ROBBERIES, I'm gonna be the bigger man and bail on non basketball related topics we can discuss that in another forum.


You didn't shoot down anything. Your pimps and judges argument doesn't fly. It would better be compared by saying 3 basketball fans and 1 basketball fan. None of us have equal or less credibility. I didn't bring up Darwin and the robbery argument was a good analogy. One that you obviously didn't follow. I'm done...Thanks for being the bigger man.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

Someone post something about Kobe...I'm starting to get annoyed by KC's lack of scientific knowledge.


----------



## k^2

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> Most likely the first land creatures evolved from fish that grew legs and came up onto the shore.


All right fair enouph. I was just wondering where you think that these fish came from. What did they evolve from? Bacteria. If so , where did this bacteria evolve from? Where did it all start?


----------



## Damian Necronamous

How am I supposed to know...I can't remember all of this.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> Geez!!!! Have you ever been to school?! Seriously...almost everyone knows this theory.
> 
> Would YOU care to explain why you think God created everything?
> 
> Once again, no offence to any church goers.


LOL, theories, theories, theories. They are all the same, they aren't fact, they aren't proven....I never said God created everything. Don't put words in my mouth....


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> LOL, theories, theories, theories. They are all the same, they aren't fact, they aren't proven....I never said God created everything. Don't put words in my mouth....


You implied it


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> Someone post something about Kobe...I'm starting to get annoyed by KC's lack of scientific knowledge.


LOL, you didn't know the difference between a law and a theory. I can almost guarantee that I have more knowledge about science than you. That is a subject for another time though....


----------



## Chops

X, what you need to understand is that NO THEORY has more credibilty than another. One says the earth was made by a "big bang". The other says that God created the earth in 7 days....Neither one is fact and neither one is any closer to being proven to be true.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

KC, after every time I said something you said something like, "Really, where's the evidence."

When there is tons of evidence.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> You implied it


Implications are not fact either....


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> X, what you need to understand is that NO THEORY has more credibilty than another. One says the earth was made by a "big bang". The other says that God created the earth in 7 days....Neither one is fact and neither one is any closer to being proven to be true.


I know, but I was getting annoyed that every time I said something I was asked "what's the evidence?" when everyone knows damn well there is evidence.

It may not be true, but there is EVIDENCE.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> KC, after every time I said something you said something like, "Really, where's the evidence."
> 
> When there is tons of evidence.


And everytime I ask you to explain this "evidence" you criticize my knowledge of science....


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> I know, but I was getting annoyed that every time I said something I was asked "what's the evidence?" when everyone knows damn well there is evidence.
> 
> It may not be true, but there is EVIDENCE.


What good is evidence if it doesn't prove anything?


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Implications are not fact either....


Aaahhhhhh! I think I'm going to explode.

Everything isn't fact, this isn't fact, that isn't fact.

What the heck is fact???!!!


----------



## k^2

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> KC, after every time I said something you said something like, "Really, where's the evidence."
> 
> When there is tons of evidence.


There is a ton of evidence against evolution also.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> What good is evidence if it doesn't prove anything?


It's good enough for some people to believe it.

Just like the evidence that there is some kind of God, some people choose to believe it.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>k^2</b>!
> 
> 
> There is a ton of evidence against evolution also.


Care to give me an example?


----------



## Damian Necronamous

This has to be one of the best arguments ever on this board!


----------



## k^2

evidence



more evidence 

Isn't the internet great?


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> Aaahhhhhh! I think I'm going to explode.
> 
> Everything isn't fact, this isn't fact, that isn't fact.
> 
> What the heck is fact?


*Fact 
n.*

_Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy. 

Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact. 
A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case. 
Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts. 
A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact. 
*Law*. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact._ 

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=fact


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> It's good enough for some people to believe it.
> 
> Just like the evidence that there is some kind of God, some people choose to believe it.


A lot of people believe that aliens exist as well....


----------



## Damian Necronamous

I'm not a moron, I know what fact is...I was being sarcastic.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> A lot of people believe that aliens exist as well....


Kick ***! What the heck is up with Area 51? I bet they got some aliens in there.:yes:  

Let's hear some THEORIES about what's going on in there.


----------



## Chops

The point is that just because a lot of people believe it, doesn't make the evidence abundant....


----------



## Damian Necronamous

It's hard for me to belive that we are alone in the universe.

There has to be some life on another planet...there are trillions of planets out there, and there is no way that there is only life on our planet.

Is there?


----------



## jazzy1

Like I said the robbery analogy a good one what a JOKE its ridiculous, I'll break my down first off I'll use the kings fan laker fan to support my argunment, If 3 BIASED FANS SEE IT ONE WAY AND ANOTHER BIASED FAN SEES IT ANOTHER WAY THEN WHO'S RIGHT THATS MY FIRST ARGUMENT, and the credibility of the story is ALWAYS THE KEY THING WHEN IN THE COURT OF LAW GET IT WHO'S THE MOST BELIEVABLE, IF YOU LOSE CREDIBILTY STATING THINGS THAT AREN'TFACTS LIKE THE hassel/artest QUESTION WHO WAS SCORED ON THE MOST IS UP FOR DEBATE UNLESS WE BREAK THE GAME FILM DOWN, THAT ISN'T A FACT JUST BECAUSE EITHER ONE OF US SAY IT IS THE FACT IS HE SCORED 26 AND 38 POINTS ON THEM BOTH thats an UNDENIABLE FACT EVEN YOU HAVE TO ADMIT. I SEE YOU HAVE A PROBLEM DIFFERENTIATING FACT FROM OPINION and psst using a robbery analogy in a basketball forum isn't good its ridiculous because we aren't in a robbery forum we're in a basketball forum, I always use basketball to back up my points, 

as far as crediblity is concerned thats probably the main point of it all in court that counts in here it doesn't thats why I said PIMPS AND JUDGE which is applicable to your robbery analogy fits perfectly with that argument I noticed how you didn't use ny Laker fan /kings fan argument for that You applied it to the robbery analogy, use like comparisons when trying to debunct my arguments.You said I would be better off using basketball fans analogy that's exactly what I did please read carefully I'm out.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Like I said the robbery analogy a good one what a JOKE its ridiculous, I'll break my down first off I'll use the kings fan laker fan to support my argunment, If 3 BIASED FANS SEE IT ONE WAY AND ANOTHER BIASED FAN SEES IT ANOTHER WAY THEN WHO'S RIGHT THATS MY FIRST ARGUMENT, and the credibility of the story is ALWAYS THE KEY THING WHEN IN THE COURT OF LAW GET IT WHO'S THE MOST BELIEVABLE, IF YOU LOSE CREDIBILTY STATING THINGS THAT AREN'TFACTS LIKE THE hassel/artest QUESTION WHO WAS SCORED ON THE MOST IS UP FOR DEBATE UNLESS WE BREAK THE GAME FILM DOWN, THAT ISN'T A FACT JUST BECAUSE EITHER ONE OF US SAY IT IS THE FACT IS HE SCORED 26 AND 38 POINTS ON THEM BOTH thats an UNDENIABLE FACT EVEN YOU HAVE TO ADMIT. I SEE YOU HAVE A PROBLEM DIFFERENTIATING FACT FROM OPINION and psst using a robbery analogy in a basketball forum isn't good its ridiculous because we aren't in a robbery forum we're in a basketball forum, I always use basketball to back up my points,
> 
> as far as crediblity is concerned thats probably the main point of it all in court that counts in here it doesn't thats why I said PIMPS AND JUDGE which is applicable to your robbery analogy fits perfectly with that argument I noticed how you didn't use ny Laker fan /kings fan argument for that You applied it to the robbery analogy, use like comparisons when trying to debunct my arguments.You said I would be better off using basketball fans analogy that's exactly what I did please read carefully I'm out.


I want to talk about aliens.


----------



## k^2

Whats this X? No comeback for what I found. Oh well it was inevtiable. Here's one more link if you're not completely satisfied just one more link . Good argument, especially when you win.


----------



## Chops

jazzy1, what does Lakers/Kings fans have to do with a Bulls game? That is ridiculous. You ignore everything I say and just shout and use big letters and say "I'm right because I am!!". I hate that approach. I'm done...I said it before, but now I WILL BE THE BIGGER MAN.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> The point is that just because a lot of people believe it, doesn't make the evidence abundant....


I know, whatever...let's stop talking about Darwin.

Let's talk about Aliens or Kobe! :yes:  

I choose Aliens. I'm tired of talking about basketball, but I'm also tired of talking about that dead white guy Darwin.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> I know, whatever...let's stop talking about Darwin.
> 
> Let's talk about Aliens or Kobe! :yes:
> 
> I choose Aliens. I'm tired of talking about basketball, but I'm also tired of talking about that dead white guy Darwin.


Changing the subject is probably your best bet....


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>k^2</b>!
> Whats this X? No comeback for what I found. Oh well it was inevtiable. Here's one more link if you're not completely satisfied just one more link . Good argument, especially when you win.


I didn't even know you gave me a link b4.


----------



## k^2

Maybe Kobe is an alien. He's just too good to be from this planet. His vertical is out of this world :laugh: .


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Changing the subject is probably your best bet....


I'm not changing the subject because I feel defeated, because I don't feel defeated, I feel like I'm right.

I'm changing the subject because I don't want to talk about Darwin anymore.

Let's not continue the argument when it should be over.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>k^2</b>!
> Maybe Kobe is an alien. He's just too good to be from this planet. His vertical is out of this world :laugh: .


I think Sam Cassell is an alien:laugh:


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>k^2</b>!
> Whats this X? No comeback for what I found. Oh well it was inevtiable. Here's one more link if you're not completely satisfied just one more link . Good argument, especially when you win.


And that site doesn't prove anything to me, it looks like it was made by a couple of crackheads.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not changing the subject because I feel defeated, because I don't feel defeated, I feel like I'm right.
> 
> I'm changing the subject because I don't want to talk about Darwin anymore.
> 
> Let's not continue the argument when it should be over.


No one is right or wrong. You just have a mixed up point of view....


----------



## Damian Necronamous

It talks about Frosty the Snowman on that site:laugh: 


http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/#life


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> And that site doesn't prove anything to me, it looks like it was made by a couple of crackheads.


It's just as good as any other evidence or theory....I could say I made the world and that is my theory. You can't disprove it....


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> No one is right or wrong. You just have a mixed up point of view....


How is my point of view mixed up?

Would you appreciate it if I told you that your piont of view was mixed up?

Just because you don't agree with me about Darwin's THEORY of evolution it doesn't give you the right to insult my opinion.


----------



## k^2

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> And that site doesn't prove anything to me, it looks like it was made by a couple of crackheads.


Allright that wasn't the better of the sites, probally why i posted it last. Check out the other 2 on the previous page.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> It's just as good as any other evidence or theory....I could say I made the world and that is my theory. You can't disprove it....


If you said that I could probably prove it by getting doctors to take tests on you, to see if you were on crack.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>k^2</b>!
> 
> 
> Allright that wasn't the better of the sites, probally why i posted it last. Check out the other 2 on the previous page.


Ok, but I'm not saying it's true, I'm saying that I choose to believe Darwin.


----------



## k^2

Fair enough. We all have different views, and if we didn't this message board wouldn't exist.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

I agree with that. But, come on...I love hearing what people think is inside Area 51.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> How is my point of view mixed up?
> 
> Would you appreciate it if I told you that your piont of view was mixed up?
> 
> Just because you don't agree with me about Darwin's THEORY of evolution it doesn't give you the right to insult my opinion.


That isn't why it's mixed up. It's mixed up because you claimed that evolution has more evidence and therfore has more credibility. You didn't know a law from a theory, and you claimed that scientific evidence is better than scripture. That is why it is mixed up.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

When did I say I didn't know a law from a theory?

When?

A law is something that has been proven.

A theory is something that hasn't been proven.

I said that there is a lot of evidence on the freaking theory of evolution that could prove it to be true.

IT'S MY OPINION.

And I do think scientific evidence is better than scripture

You put a lot of words in my mouth there.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> When did I say I didn't know a law from a theory?
> 
> When?
> 
> A law is something that has been proven.
> 
> A theory is something that hasn't been proven.
> 
> I said that there is a lot of evidence on the freaking theory of evolution that could prove it to be true.
> 
> IT'S MY OPINION.
> 
> And I do think scientific evidence is better than scripture


Ok, as long as you classify it as your opinion....You did give a  face and then acted surprised when you asked if I thought God created animals. Then you said, "Please, don't tell me you believe that, please."


----------



## Wiggum

Whoa...this is totally off topic...? How did we get from Kobe Bryant to Charles Darwin...?


----------



## Chops

Posted by *The X Factor*

_Just because three people all think the same thing it doesn't mean it's right. And he actually never said his opinion was better than yours. 

*When Darwin first came up with his theory of evolution it was millions against one. Were the millions right.... no!*

Just because you have two other people that think the same thing as you, it doesn't make your argument any stronger at all._


----------



## Damian Necronamous

I'm trying to get it to move from Charles Darwin to aliens, but no one is joining the movement.


----------



## Louie

Ok, so let me get this straight X-factor: the theory of creation seems totally ludicrous to you, but you believe that aliens exist? I'm not making any judgements about aliens existance, but what the makes you so damm sure that creationism is less likely than evolution? How many times has existing scientific theory been proven wrong? Not to get too far off the subject, but if you want to get into credibility, who seems more credible, some dead, eccentric scientist, or GOD?!? Theres no way you can say that evolution is a more credible theory. You are a pretty good poster, but KC and K'2 mopped the floor with you in this thread.
On a different topic:
Jazz1, earlier you made this statment:


> I have no problem admitting ARTEST, PATTERSON, BOWEN, CHRISTIE ALL MAKE IT HARD BUT THEY MAKE IT HARD GOR EVERYONE BUT KOBE STILL MAKES THE PLAYS THAT COUNT AND STILL GETS HIS NUMBERS,


If Kobe makes the plays when it counts, then how come the BULLS WON? TWICE!!! The worst team in the league! Kobe still gets his numbers, but mostly against Hassell, like i said before. For the worst offensive team in the league to get the better of the world champs down the stretch (even w/out Diesel), someone has to be doing a damm good job on Kobe.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

(Yes!!! We're talking about aliens!!!) We aren't sure that either exist, but I think that aliens do!!!

Why?
It just seems unlikely to me that we are alone in the universe and out of all of the planets out there...we are the only planet with life.

Why don't I think God exists?
Because I control my life and I don't think there is any outside influence on what happens to me. I think if God did exist there wouldn't be murders, kidnappings, and rapings.

I'm entitled to my opinion and so are you, but we shouldn't question eachother's.

And I don't think KC and k^2 mopped the floor with me, because..
1. I never stated evolution had more credibility than creationism
2. KC and TheRifleman stated basically the same thing about 5 times and pretended I didn't know what they were talking about, so they could post more about it
3. Words were being put into my mouth


----------



## Louie

I know this is a basketball forum, but a little tangent here and there won't hurt, right?


----------



## Louie

> Why don't I think God exists? Because I control my life and I don't think there is any outside influence on what happens to me. I think if God did exist there wouldn't be murders, kidnappings, and rapings.


I would love to debate this one with you, and if it gets moved to "everything but basketball" so be it. I used to think the same way you do, but I've come to think otherwise lately. IMO, The reason that bad things happen in life is because that's what makes it life; if it were all good it'd be heaven, and if it were all bad it'd be hell. I believe that life is a test to see if we're worthy of heaven. God lets you control your own life to a certain degree to see what kind of person you are. If we pass the test, we go to heaven, if not, we go to hell. I'm not trying to preach to you or force anything on you, I'm just saying what i believe. I'm definitely not the most religious person in the world, I just know what i believe in.
And I still think you got the floor mopped with you in this thread, no offense.


----------



## Wiggum

This whole thread has officially gone to hell...


----------



## Chops

God gave everyone free-will. That is why bad things happen....


----------



## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> God gave everyone free-will. That is why bad things happen....


it all has to do with adam, eve, and the forbidden fruit...


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>BizzyRipsta</b>!
> 
> 
> it all has to do with adam, eve, and the forbidden fruit...


:yes:


----------



## Louie

Exactly. Like I said, X-factor, I don't want to preach to you, but when you make statements like, "If God really existed then such and such wouldn't happen", you have to know you're gonna get responses. I know these last few posts have nothing to do with basketball, but I still think that there were some things that had to be said.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> Exactly. Like I said, X-factor, I don't want to preach to you, but when you make statements like, "If God really existed then such and such wouldn't happen", you have to know you're gonna get responses. I know these last few posts have nothing to do with basketball, but I still think that there were some things that had to be said.


Ahh...once again putting words in my mouth.

I said, and I quote: I THINK if God did exist there wouldn't be murders, kidnappings, and rapings.

And yes this whole thread has completely fallen apart.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>BizzyRipsta</b>!
> 
> 
> it all has to do with adam, eve, and the forbidden fruit...


That's an opinion, not a fact.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> That's an opinion, not a fact.


She never claimed it was fact. She is trying to explain why bad things happen, even though God does exist. (Yes, this is not proven. It is called faith). Whether or not you choose to believe what the Bible says and why christians believe what they do, is up to you.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

tmac is cocky :yes:


----------



## Louie

> Ahh...once again putting words in my mouth.


Ok, I really don't understand how i did this.........i didn't use your exact words but it was close enough to where it conveyed the same message. Whether you used the words " I think" or not, it's beside the point- the mesage was still the same. And I put words in your mouth "once again"? When had I ever done it before.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> And I put words in your mouth "once again"? When had I ever done it before.


I didn't say you had put words in my mouth again, I said words were being put into my mouth again.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

Listen...I'm not trying to change anyone's faith or mind here, ok.

I'm just trying to explain my opinion, and people are attacking me for it.

Aren't people entitled to their opinion?

If I've offended you in anyway I'm sorry, I didn't mean it.

BTW...that aliens thing was to get off topic, bcuz I had had enough of Darwin, and bcuz people were ganging up on me:yes:.


----------



## Louie

Nobody's "attacking" you for it, we just are stating our opinions. We're not trying to change your beliefs either, just stating why we have a problem with what you said.
Anyway.......let's try to get this back on topic.......In response to the following post by Jazzy1:


> I have no problem admitting ARTEST, PATTERSON, BOWEN, CHRISTIE ALL MAKE IT HARD BUT THEY MAKE IT HARD GOR EVERYONE BUT KOBE STILL MAKES THE PLAYS THAT COUNT AND STILL GETS HIS NUMBERS,


I made this post earlier:


> If Kobe makes the plays when it counts, then how come the BULLS WON? TWICE!!! The worst team in the league! Kobe still gets his numbers, but mostly against Hassell, like i said before. For the worst offensive team in the league to get the better of the world champs down the stretch (even w/out Diesel), someone has to be doing a damm good job on Kobe.


How bout we talk about that?


----------



## STING




----------



## STING

Attack all Kobe Bashers! :laugh:


----------



## k^2

> Originally posted by <b>STING</b>!
> Attack all Kobe Bashers! :laugh:


where in the world do you find these smilies. hook a brotha up.


----------



## STING

plauder-smilies.com

Once you get there click on "crack's smilies" at the bottom and that will take you to a bigger site


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

*Re: Why I hate Kobe Bryant*



> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> I know there has been a lot of these kind of posts before, but I never really stated my view so here we go.
> 
> I hate Kobe Bryant for many reasons, first I think he is not a man in the game of basketball, seriously he picked a fight with probably one of the weakest players in the NBA in Reggie Miller. And then he goes and hides behind Shaq in the playoffs, forget
> Shaq giving Kobe the luxury of no double teams but Kobe doesn't get any problems in the playoffs. Because if a player from the other team gets in Kobe's face, well then Shaq either goes over and slams the guy on the ground or he just gets mad and uses it on the court. I would like to see Kobe fight his own battles once, and I hate the way he plays. He just ekes around like a little snake, he doesn't play with much physical force, he acts like he wants the refs to bail him out in the post etc and going to the hoop. Be a man and take it strong, you could not see this any clearer than in the All-Star game. He was playing that like it was a real game, I love competitors and Kobe is one, but come' on,
> don't shoot a damn 15 foot jump shot on a break in the All-Star game! And when you dunk bend the rim once, and when you can dunk don't freaking lye it in the hoop! Also it would be nice to not shoot 30 damn shots, that little display in the All-Star game I think
> lost him a ton of "fans". Another thing, we walks around like he is the best thing ever in basketball and that is fine, but he is not even the man on his own team, Shaq gives all that bull of, I want Kobe to get the MVP , yeah with you on his team that will never happen. He is cocky but not in a Gary Payton kind of way, Gary will get in any ones face and compete and never let up. But the only player Kobe will get his face into is Reggie Miller? And please take a foul and don't look and cry to the ref, and if you want to be a "BAD A$$" NBA baller, start out that way. Don't come in and change you image from a McDonalds good boy to a punk street baller, because it doesn't work. And he is all goody goody with the media and that gets him some fans, oh he is a nice well rounded NBA player, he speaks FRENCH, who cares!!! Then he goes on the court and cries to the ref and worries about how he is not going to be compared to MJ because he isn't scoring 30 a
> game.
> 
> Kobe is a great talent and maybe he is good for the game I don't know, but I wish he was real and was himself. It seems like he wants to be two people, one is the feared basketball player that intimidates, the other is the nice guy that everyone likes. Pick one
> Kobe, and I would wonder if all of his "FANS" would like him if he was not supposedly cute????? Well the female fans anyway.
> 
> Yeah maybe I'm just pissed because he is getting championships, but I think there are about 30-40 players in the NBA that desurve a championship more than he does. But he got lucky and is able to play with Shaq rigth away. He would have NEVER even got one championship at this age if he was on Charlotte, he would have been lucky to get out of the 2nd round.
> 
> *Great baller, but you better be on the damn USA team some time in your career, and you better keep up your cocky attitude when big daddy Shaq is not there to protect you. But I did have some respect for him when he took that BOOOOOing at the end of the All-Star game, maybe he is just pissed about and that is why he has become a BAD BOY in the league?



*** Way over the top! Please check your PMs! — Ron ***


----------



## ChiBron

> btw.... if kobe wasnt around, the lakers lose the majority of their close games


Huh? How come they have a 10-1 record without Kobe since the past 2 years? Guess those games weren't close then. 

And pls, don't insult the greatest player of all time by comparing him to a 2nd option.


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## Louie

For some reason I can't put this in a quote right now, so I'll just repost what you just said"
"i have to tell you... i hate kobe with a passion, but not because of how he acts, but because im a bulls fan and im jelous that the lakers just may have the next MJ waiting after shaq retires......see? i admit it, now breath deeply....ahhhhhh"
I'm a Bulls fan too, but my problem with Kobe is exactly the opposite of yours. I actually don't dislike Kobe that much (well he kinda bugs me cause he is a bit of a crybaby, but then Pippen was just as bad, probably worse). The problem I have is not with Kobe himself but with the people who say he is the next Jordan. Kobe's a great, great player, along with TMac the closest thing to a young MJ in today's league, but IMO he is NOT the next Jordan (see "Why does Everyone Hate Kobe" thread on the Laker forum for my explanation). Sure I'd love to have Kobe on the Bulls, but I'm really not terribly jealous because we (by "we" I mean Chicago fans) had MJ, six titles, and the greatest regular season record ever in the last decade, and we've got a pretty talented young team now. I don't like Shaq or Rick Fox personally, but other than that I don't have too much against Kobe or this Laker team in general.


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## jazzy1

In REPONSE TO LOUIE who is a classic hater lets talk about the BULLS GAMES, this is a ridiculous notion discussing the losses to a very sorry BULLS TEAM DO YOU REALLY WANT TO DISCUSS THOSE LOSSES HOW ABOUT THE LOSSES TO THE GRIZZLIES AND THE NUGGETS, ANY OTHER LISTLESS LOSSES YOU WISH TO DISCUSS , ANSWER THIS QUESTION LOUIE HONESTLY DOES KOBE BRYANT MAKE THE BIG PLAYS AT THE BIGGEST MOMENTS WHEN THEY COUNT MOST IE THE PLAYOFFS OR THE FINALS SOME PLACE THE BULLS AND KINGS DON'T KNOW ABOUT DOES HE MAKE THE PLAYS WHEN IT REALLY MATTERS , PLAYING THE BULLS IN MARCH DOESN'T REALLY MATTER OR DOES IT, SECONDLY DOES KOBE MAKE ALL THE PLAYS ANSWER NO ,NEITHER DOES ANYBODY,DOES HE MAKE MORE THAN MOST HELL YES,NOW LETS TALK ABOUT THE YEAR BEFORE LAST WHEN HE BEAT THE BULLS AND ARTEST AND DID MAKE THE PLAYS THAT COUNTED IN THE REGULAR SEASON LETS TALK ABOUT THAT DOES IT MATTER ANSWER NO , 

TEAMS KOBE BEAT IN THE PLAYOFFS WITH CLUTCH PLAYS THIS PAST SEASON IN THE PLAYOFFS TOO MANY TEAMS TO COUNT IN THE REGULAR SEASON.

SPURS 
KINGS
PORTLAND
NETS

THATS EVERY TEAM THEY PLAYED IN THE PLAYOFF LOUIE NOW WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT TO DISCUSS, ABOUT THE WORLD CHAMPION BEATER OF THE KINGS LAKERS.


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## jazzy1

oH AND kc i KNOW YOU'RE DONE i DIDN'T IGNORE anything you said I dealt with each point step by step so what are you saying KINGS?LAKERS is a basketball analogy in a basketball forum not a robbery analogy in a basketball forum so get it straight I've used reasoning to support my points and all you do is claim false facts 

attention anyone is this a fact or opinion KOBE SCORED MOST OF HIS POINTS ON HASSEL, 
OR IS KOBE SCORED 26 AND 38 POINTS IN 2 GAMES AGAINST THE BULLS A FACT, 

I CAN PROVE MINE BY LOOKING AT THE STATS CAN YOU PROVE YOURS I DON'T THINK SO. 

KOBE IS 1ST TEAM ALL NBA FACT OR OPINION 
KOBE ISN'T A TOP 5 PLAYER FACT OR OPINION 
PLEASE SOMEONE ANSWER, 

I'M OUT.


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## Wiggum

Please...stop typing in all caps...it makes my eyes hurt... :dead:


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> 
> 
> Huh? How come they have a 10-1 record without Kobe since the past 2 years? Guess those games weren't close then.
> 
> And pls, don't insult the greatest player of all time by comparing him to a 2nd option.


who hit those clutch shots to beat the spurs in the playoffs after being down all game? regular season and playoffs are like day and night


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## BizzyRipsta

*Re: Re: Why I hate Kobe Bryant*



> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> *** Quote edited. — Ron ***


whoa! very sexist response! what are you trying to say about females here? girly reasons? stop being b****es? guys, don't forget that there are females on this board!


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## ChiBron

> who hit those clutch shots to beat the spurs in the playoffs after being down all game?


The lakers were down "BIG" in only one of the 5 games, the other 4 games were tight where either team didn't lead by more then 7 pts. Y don't we take an indepth look at the lakers-spurs series this year.

Game 1: Both teams have a horrendous 1st half, the spurs only lead by 6. It was basically a tie score till the end of the 3rd. Shaq scores 12 pts in the 4th, lakers win.

Game 2: Another horrendous 1st half for the lakers. Spurs lead by 16 at the half. The Lakers cut the lead to 1 with 10 secs left in the game, Kobe's got the ball, he crosses mid court AND........he turns the ball over with 1 sec left, Lakers lose.

Game 3: Another tight game, Kobe just took over with 5 mins left in the 4th, Lakers won. Kobe's first clutch performance.

Game 4: The only game where the lakers were down the entire night and Kobe pulled of his heroics down the stretch. LA down by 10, 6 mins. left in the 4th, Kobe hits two open 3's(both passed by shaq off double teams) and then the courageous off. rebound with 5 secs left. Lakers win. Kobe's 2nd clutch performance.

Game 5: A boring *** predictable game. Tight all night long, except for the last 5 mins. Lakers(especially horry) basically make their shots, and spurs miss them all. Lakers win, no 4th heroics in this game.

Shaq was without a doubt his absolute worst in this series. Yet the lakers were in each game of the series, and broke lose with 2-3 mins. left in the 4th. 
Don't make it sound like kobe played "superman" in all 5 games and brought the lakers back from down 10 or 15. Neither team ever had big leads in the series.


----------



## Wiggum

*Re: Re: Why I hate Kobe Bryant*



> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> *** Quote edited. — Ron ***


Some people just don't like Kobe Bryant. They just don't. It's really no more complicated than that.

You can't criticize a person's reason for disliking someone. To say that OZZY's or whoever's reasons for disliking Bryant are "pathetic" or "girly" (although I don't really understand the "girly" insult) is not being fair to other people's opinions. Isn't your job as a moderator to make sure posts like yours I am adressing aren't tolerated?


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## STING

Right on with what Wiggum said, although he did have a pretty good point.  

I just don't like Kobe, he just pisses me off, and it isn't because i'm jelaous, My teams are on the other side of the NBA :laugh: 

I kind of like the Lakers... :uhoh: 

BTW... I think Wiggum definitly has the best sig on this site :laugh:


----------



## Louie

> In REPONSE TO LOUIE who is a classic hater lets talk about the BULLS GAMES, this is a ridiculous notion discussing the losses to a very sorry BULLS TEAM DO YOU REALLY WANT TO DISCUSS THOSE LOSSES HOW ABOUT THE LOSSES TO THE GRIZZLIES AND THE NUGGETS, ANY OTHER LISTLESS LOSSES YOU WISH TO DISCUSS


A classic hater, am I? Actually, if you read alot of my other posts, you'll see that I actually don't have a whole lot against Kobe, Iconsider him a top 5 player in the L, and I have stated that IMO he'll go down as one of the top 10 players ever. THE RESON THE LOSSES TO THE BULLS ARE DIFFERENT (see. i can use caps too! ) is the fact that both games were considerably more heated than any of the other "listless losses"you mention. The first game, there was a brawl in the beginning of the 4th QTR. that got Shaq, B.Miller, Oakley, and Fox ejected. After the fight, you could see that Kobe was ready to exact rvrenge and take over the game, only there was one problem- Artest was all over him. Did Kobe still score? Yeah, but not enough to overcome the league's worst offense. After the game, he made a comment that was something to the effect of, "Let them celebrate. When they come out to our turf, they'll see that things are gonna be different." Things, of course, were not different, as the Lakers once again were unable to outscore the league's worst offensive team down the stretch.


> ANSWER THIS QUESTION LOUIE HONESTLY DOES KOBE BRYANT MAKE THE BIG PLAYS AT THE BIGGEST MOMENTS WHEN THEY COUNT MOST IE THE PLAYOFFS OR THE FINALS SOME PLACE THE BULLS AND KINGS DON'T KNOW ABOUT DOES HE MAKE THE PLAYS WHEN IT REALLY MATTERS ,


Oh yeah, the Bulls don't know about the finals. We were only THERE SIX TIMES in the past twelve years. I don't think I have to mention that we won all six times, but I will anyway.
Well, forget the fact that in my previous posts I WASN"T TALKING ABOUT THE FINALS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, I WAS ONLY TALKING ABOUT ARTEST's DEFENSE, if you want to bring up "when it counts", where was Kobe in the 4th QTR. and OT of Game 7 of the WCF? 0-for-5 from the field? Now I could overlook this, because Diesel carried them to victory anyway, and because Kobe has proven on other occasions to be an excellent clutch player. But I wasn;t even talking about Kobe's clutch abiltiy, I was talking about Artest's defense. Next time actually read the post before you respond.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>STING</b>!
> BTW... I think Wiggum definitly has the best sig on this site :laugh:


:laugh: 

I got it from brainyquote.com...there are tons of Barkley quotes on there.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

For everyone who thinks Kobe is arrogant...go read what Tracy McGrady said in Inside Stuff.


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## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> And pls, don't insult the greatest player of all time by comparing him to a 2nd option.


Kobe is the first option on every team besides the Lakers. 

Nobody will be 1st option on a team with Shaq besides Shaq. McGrady sure as hell wouldn't, same goes for Iverson, Carter and Pierce.


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## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> For everyone who thinks Kobe is arrogant...go read what Tracy McGrady said in Inside Stuff.


x, just because mcgrady makes a comment that is considered as arrogant doesn't make kobe any more or less arrogant to those that believe that he is so.


----------



## beautifulkobe

Could someone tell me what kobe said or did that makes him so arrogant?


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> Could someone tell me what kobe said or did that makes him so arrogant?


i dont think he has said anything, i think his confident stroll and smile make peple think of mj and assume he's trying to act like the great one


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> Could someone tell me what kobe said or did that makes him so arrogant?


The answer to your question, which I thought I already explained, is NO. The people that dislike Bryant just don't like him. Could you explain to me why you dislike Vlade Divac? Well, you would say "Yes, because he flops." But...a lot of people, myself included, aren't bothered too much by his flopping. So your explanation of why you dislike Divac hasn't satisfied me. I have to just live with it, because you can't explain why you dislike Divac without giving an explanation that I wouldn't agree with; if I did, I would already dislike Divac. SOME PEOPLE JUST DON'T LIKE BRYANT. LIVE WITH IT!


----------



## ChiBron

> Kobe is the first option on every team besides the Lakers.


And what makes u say that? I doubt if he would be the #1 option on the Spurs. Plus, i don't see VC, AI, T-mac and Pierce playing 2nd fiddle to Kobe either. 

And yes, a 2nd option should never be compared to MJ. Atleast not the extent u LA fans extend it to. Kobe doesn't go through any of the problems a #1 option faces.


----------



## OZZY

*Difference from the begining, and why Kobe is "a better clutch player" at this point*

Ok since people are still getting in on this, here is my take.

UP-BRINGINGS..............

Kobe Bryant:
Came into the league in the best possible spot any rookie out of high school could do. When on the most famous franchise in the NBA with the LA Lakers, has a ton of support in Magic Johnson and Jerry West etc off the court that helped him grow. Has probably the best coach in the NBA as his coach after his first fue years. Has the most dominate player in the NBA period also on his team. Has chances in the playoffs from a young age on, could grow from failing and learn from his experences as a young player in the playoffs. And the team let him play, and let him take the big shot when he was developing, and caught him when he "fell" in a way mentally when he air balled game winners.

Tracy McGrady:
Went on one of the worst franchises in the NBA, no history at all, bad fans, up in Canada. Did not get much playing time period, much less any clutch shots at the end of games early on. Did not have a solid coach on his team during that time, did not have that good of team-mates around him. Did not get the support off the court, because there is just no names of great Raptors that could help the young kid, because it is basically a totally new franchise. Lived outside of the US, had to live and play in Canada right out of high school and again the team was horrible and he never played and got the big shots at the end of game. And if he did he would not get the support after ward, I don't think the Raptors trusted him that much either.


I THINK YOU CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE FROM THE TWO!!!!
TWO WAY DIFFERENT UP-BRINGINGS IN THE NBA, TWO WAY DIFFERENT TEAMS, TWO WAY DIFFERENT INVIRONMENTS COACHING/AND MANAGEMENT, 

Reason of the "clutch" difference, but like Tracy exploded on the NBA 2 years ago, I think he is learning from the new enviroment and coaching etc compared to his first fue years.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> The answer to your question, which I thought I already explained, is NO. The people that dislike Bryant just don't like him. Could you explain to me why you dislike Vlade Divac? Well, you would say "Yes, because he flops." But...a lot of people, myself included, aren't bothered too much by his flopping. So your explanation of why you dislike Divac hasn't satisfied me. I have to just live with it, because you can't explain why you dislike Divac without giving an explanation that I wouldn't agree with; if I did, I would already dislike Divac. SOME PEOPLE JUST DON'T LIKE BRYANT. LIVE WITH IT!


the reasons people hate divac and the reasons people hate kobe are totally differend things

people hate divac for his flops, people hate kobe for things he either cant control(playing with shaq), or very vague things that are ridiculious to hate someone for(how he walks with a confident stroll), now you cant tell me with a strait face that these are comparable, because they are not

and i still havent gotten a legit reason for why people hate kobe


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

*Re: Difference from the begining, and why Kobe is "a better clutch player" at this point*



> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Ok since people are still getting in on this, here is my take.
> 
> UP-BRINGINGS..............
> 
> Kobe Bryant:
> Came into the league in the best possible spot any rookie out of high school could do. When on the most famous franchise in the NBA with the LA Lakers, has a ton of support in Magic Johnson and Jerry West etc off the court that helped him grow. Has probably the best coach in the NBA as his coach after his first fue years. Has the most dominate player in the NBA period also on his team. Has chances in the playoffs from a young age on, could grow from failing and learn from his experences as a young player in the playoffs. And the team let him play, and let him take the big shot when he was developing, and caught him when he "fell" in a way mentally when he air balled game winners.
> 
> Tracy McGrady:
> Went on one of the worst franchises in the NBA, no history at all, bad fans, up in Canada. Did not get much playing time period, much less any clutch shots at the end of games early on. Did not have a solid coach on his team during that time, did not have that good of team-mates around him. Did not get the support off the court, because there is just no names of great Raptors that could help the young kid, because it is basically a totally new franchise. Lived outside of the US, had to live and play in Canada right out of high school and again the team was horrible and he never played and got the big shots at the end of game. And if he did he would not get the support after ward, I don't think the Raptors trusted him that much either.
> 
> 
> I THINK YOU CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE FROM THE TWO!!!!
> TWO WAY DIFFERENT UP-BRINGINGS IN THE NBA, TWO WAY DIFFERENT TEAMS, TWO WAY DIFFERENT INVIRONMENTS COACHING/AND MANAGEMENT,
> 
> Reason of the "clutch" difference, but like Tracy exploded on the NBA 2 years ago, I think he is learning from the new enviroment and coaching etc compared to his first fue years.


why would kobe's upbrining or route to success make you hate him?


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## TheRifleman

<i>and i still havent gotten a legit reason for why people hate kobe</i>

There will never be a "legit" reason - for me - why anybody "hates" anybody, much less a pro basketball star. That is not the point either, because nobody has to answer me (give me a legit reason) on why they hate anybody.

Actually, I have seen few on this thread who say they "hate" Kobe! (Most say they "dislike" Kobe and that is a HUGE difference - to me.)

Their reasons are legit - to them (because that is their subjective opinion) - and you or I will never change that, so it is pointless to even try!


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## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> the reasons people hate divac and the reasons people hate kobe are totally differend things
> 
> people hate divac for his flops, people hate kobe for things he either cant control(playing with shaq), or very vague things that are ridiculious to hate someone for(how he walks with a confident stroll), now you cant tell me with a strait face that these are comparable, because they are not
> 
> and i still havent gotten a legit reason for why people hate kobe


I don't think you were paying attention to the point I was trying to make...

Let's say you hate Divac. Let's say I don't hate Divac. You say you hate Divac because he flops. That's not a legitimate reason to me, because his flopping doesn't bother me.

People who hate Bryant say they don't like his personality. You say that's not a legitimate argument, because his behavior doesn't bother you. It's just as legitimate an argument as your argument against Divac.

Both of these points are completely subjective. Why is my point an invalid one? I thought of all people, a moderator (YOU) would try to respect other people's opinions rather than say I can't have that opinion and keep a "strait" face.


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## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>BizzyRipsta</b>!
> 
> 
> x, just because mcgrady makes a comment that is considered as arrogant doesn't make kobe any more or less arrogant to those that believe that he is so.


Why don't you tell me what Kobe has said that makes you think of him as arrogant? Nothing.

People give reasons that are so lame...like, "Oh yeah, it's the way he carries himself."

Every star in the NBA knows they're good, every time they make a big shot they are going to react. Don't expect them to look normal when they makes a game winner. Take Antoine Walker for instance...if you call Kobe arrogant, so is Antoine Walker, so is Pierce, so is KG...every star is the league is arrogant!

Tracy McGrady said he is the best player in the game...it's not only arrogant it's not even true.


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## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> 
> 
> And what makes u say that? I doubt if he would be the #1 option on the Spurs. Plus, i don't see VC, AI, T-mac and Pierce playing 2nd fiddle to Kobe either.
> 
> And yes, a 2nd option should never be compared to MJ. Atleast not the extent u LA fans extend it to. Kobe doesn't go through any of the problems a #1 option faces.


It depends who that 2nd option is, saying a 2nd option shouldn't be compared to Kobe is ignorant.

Kobe consistantly goes through the problems a number one option faces. He gets double teamed, and the best defenders guard him.

He's not even the number two option...he and Shaq are both number one options.

Kobe takes more shots than Shaq...doesn't that actually make Kobe the number one option?

If Tracy McGrady, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, and Allen Iverson were on the Spurs, they wouldn't be the ONLY number one option.

Kobe being compared to MJ doesn't have anything to do with what scoring option he is...that's a lame reason.


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## Wiggum

Is ANYONE bothering to read what I have written!? After I explain TWICE why neither side is going to budge on this, X Factor starts his "Kobe Lover" speech AGAIN!? This thread is absolutely pointless. I'm ashamed to have participated in this.


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## Damian Necronamous

:laugh: I was just giving my response to other member's posts, am I allowed to do that? I'm not a Kobe "Lover", I'm a Kobe Supporter...I listen to other people's posts, I don't just ignore them and say "Kobe's so good", "Kobe's so good".

I was arguing why people call him arrogant and arguing that he wasn't a "second option." 

I was not preaching his greatness. There is a difference.


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## Chops

*Re: Re: Why I hate Kobe Bryant*



> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> *** Quoted edited. — Ron ***


Wow, this post came from a Moderator?


----------



## Wiggum

*Re: Re: Re: Why I hate Kobe Bryant*



> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow, this post came from a Moderator?


Yeah, shocking, isn't it?


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## jazzy1

Now Louie lets deal with this stupid notion you have that the Bulls game somehow mattered to the Lakers Now I have to admit my Bad about the hater comment read your other posts and While you're still a hater you're a Hater with cause, I understand your reasoning and can actually say I respect it so a Big CAPS MY BADD, but now to your other ramblings about those heated REGULAR SEASON GAMES DON'T THE ALL CAPS JUST GET ON YOUR NERVES THATS FOR YOU WIGGUM,

*** Stop with the all-caps, already...that is "rude" in Internet-speak. — Ron ***


Just playing, I understand you being a fan of a pathetic team have to take some glory from last season but honestly do you really believe those games mattered to the Lakers ,trust me I wished they were focused on the regular season as a fan but it just doesn't matter to them , I see you just ignored the part about the year before last because it didn't suit your argument but that's cool only brought it up to signify to you the meaningless nature of the games, You admit Kobe scored so what are we talking about Kobe can't be stopped by Artest the 26 and 38 points should prove that, Come on honestly you truly don't believe the Lakers struggled against tje Grizzlie, Bulls and GSW because those teams are better than the WORLD CHAMPS, 

Now to your point about the Western Conference finals man please I like how you ignored Kobe's 30 points and Key Free throw DOWN THE STRETCH When he drew a foul on Christie and then outhustled Divac to the ball, and got another free throw,which helped send it to overtime, 
Quick Kobe recap

spurs - made tip in to beat spurs scored most all Lakers 4th quarter points all series, 

Blazers-made 3 pointer to bring Lakers close then blew by Patterson to set up game winning three by Horry,

Kings Already mentioned above.

Nets Made key baskets over Martin in game 3 and in clincher to help Lakers clinch 3 peat. 

And Finally Louie, the Bulls won 6 titles didn't make that comment about the franchise just the current team , don't know anything about playoffs or even winning for that matter but I think you knew what I meant, Lets not compare franchises you don't want to do that, your three peat is going down when the Lakers 4 peat , So what is your point Artest has good defense I said that but Kobe averaged 32 points a game last year against the Bulls so how is that Kobe stopping oh my fault he got them mostly against Hassel , and those mighty Bulls should have been declared Champions because they swept the Lakers do the Lakers get an award or kudos for beating the Bulls no it's not even worth discussing which was my point all along, and that Kobe smoked the Bulls but HIS TEAM last time I heard you had to have one of those to win a game, didn't get the job done I guess kobe should have blocked out Chandler on his follow dunk that was a key basket also should have contained Miller inside as well as Oakely too, Man please and this is the only point, when Shaq is out other players don't step up Kobe always steps up his game but he can't beat teams all by himself. Neither could superman Michael Jordan whom I like also, it's not mutually exclusive to like one or the other you can like both without hating Kobe.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

*Re: Re: Re: Why I hate Kobe Bryant*



> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow, this post came from a Moderator?


hey.... give me some time, i havent gotten a chance to get the feel of being a moderator seeing how there hasnt been any "action" on my boards lol


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## Ron

Johnny Bravo, check your PMs.

This thread is dead.

P.S. I'm sure I missed a ton of crappy posts in this thread, but I'm not going to wade through this sewer of a thread just to edit each and every one...it's a dead issue, let's all move on.


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## oppression

*FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*

A simple...obvious fact...


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## TheRifleman

Well, we each are certainly entitled to our own opinion. 

Maybe sometime you might expound on who you think is the greatest NBA player of all time and quite naturally, why you hold that personal opinion.


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## FOREVER_BEST

you gotta be kidding me right ? if you dont think hes the greatest of all time, then who is ? give your explanation in detail plz. who in your opionion is the GREATEST of all time ?? bird ??magic ?? chamberlin ?? o'neal ?? olajuwon ?? dr j ?? malone ?? YAO MING   ?? LOL ??????


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## oppression

Granted there is no "all time" yet (until if-and-when the league folds), but here's one candidate: Wilt Chamberlain.

Wilt Chamberlain rewrote the record books, dominated the game more than George Mikan before him, and more than anyone afterwards. In 1961-62, he AVERAGED 50.4 ppg. He won seven scoring titles, 11 rebounding titles, and led the league in minutes played 8 times. He averaged over 45 minutes per game every game of his career. In 1967-68 he led the league in assists – something Jordan has never came close to doing. Chamberlain holds the records for points scored in a season, a game (100), rebounds in a game (55) and for the season and career, as well as FG percentage for a season (.727). He as well holds the record for minutes played in a season, playing all but 6 minutes in the entire 1962 season. Let's see Jordan pull that off in a pair of Chuck Taylors.

Opponents of this truth try to attribute this to height, yet they cannot explain why even Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (another candidate) could not equal these feats, despite being taller, and playing against Chamberlain for four seasons, or why players like Shawn Bradley or Gheorghe Muresan (brought in to the league solely for their height) don't come close. Furthermore, to use height as an excuse is to say that Jordan needs handicaps to be the best, just a cop-out.

It should also be noted that the league passed rules to stop Chamberlain's dominance (and yes, such rules were passed because of the memory of George Mikan's dominance). Yet, the NBA passed rules to enhance Jordan's dominance. Let's see Jordan play in a league with no hand checks, no defined zones, no 3pt. shot, or flagrant fouls.

Jordan-supporters know that Jordan’s feats cannot match up to Chamberlains. They point to their career scoring averages, yet cannot explain why Chamberlain has 119 games with 50+ points, to Jordan’s 30. Furthermore, while they chalk up Chamberlain's rebounding dominance to his height advantage, they cannot explain why he led the league in assists, and Jordan could not.

Quite simply, Jordan did not dominate the league like Chamberlain did.

I'd be willing to post more candidates, if anyone wants to read about them


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## JNice

Granted, Jordan may not be the most "dominant" player ever, that would have to go to Chamberlain and I think once Shaq retires he will be right there with Wilt..

but the "best" player ever, imo most certainly is Michael Jordan. There have been better shooters, better ball-handlers, better passers, and even better dunkers (VC) .. but no one has put it all together before like MJ. If he hadnt retired the first time and Krause hadn't torn apart the Bulls, they probably would have 7-8-9 in a row.. all led by MJ.

Actually hand checking was very much a part of the NBA game during much of Jordan's time.. and although Jordan did have the three point line, it was never a main part of his asenal, just another addition.. it wouldnt have mattered to Wilt to have a 3pt line anyway, he couldnt shoot..

Wilt's dominance, as is Shaq's, was much more on the physical side, whereas Jordan's was much more on the skill side.


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## TheRifleman

That was a great post on Wilt and your reasons for him being the best player ever.

I agree, his regular season records are the GREATEST; it is always his playoffs stats that fall short, imho. 

Playing better competition in the playoffs usually brings all great players down, but Wilt goes from 30 PPG down to 22 PPG. That is really DOWN in comparison to many other "greats" of any era. Just my personal opinion, of course. 

I would love to hear your other "candidates" for best player of all time.


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## oppression

> Granted, Jordan may not be the most "dominant" player ever, that would have to go to Chamberlain and I think once Shaq retires he will be right there with Wilt..


blasphamy! has Shaq even cracked 30ppg and 15rpg in a season? over 5apg?


> but the "best" player ever, imo most certainly is Michael Jordan. There have been better shooters, better ball-handlers, better passers, and even better dunkers (VC) .. but no one has put it all together before like MJ.


Oscar Robertson? Magic Johnson? Larry Bird?


> If he hadnt retired the first time and Krause hadn't torn apart the Bulls, they probably would have 7-8-9 in a row.. all led by MJ.


That...is highly unlikely...the Bulls were winding down in '93 and struggled against the Suns...factor in the growning animosity with Grant and B.J. Armstrong...that and the fact that when Jordan came back little was left from the first team...then the god-like play of Hakeem...and also that Jordan would have worn out his body more with the extra years of play...


> Actually hand checking was very much a part of the NBA game during much of Jordan's time..


And it was redefined throughout Jordan's career so that the Knicks couldn't put an arm on his back, etc.


> and although Jordan did have the three point line, it was never a main part of his asenal, just another addition.. it wouldnt have mattered to Wilt to have a 3pt line anyway, he couldnt shoot..


Wilt had an eighteen foot jumper! I have no doubt he would've learned to shoot the three if it was available.


> Wilt's dominance, as is Shaq's, was much more on the physical side, whereas Jordan's was much more on the skill side.


Chamberlain could lead the fast break, dribble, hit the outside J, have a fadeaway and do fancy behind the back passes. Wilt had the skill and the size. Making him soooo much more deadly.


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## TheRifleman

Wilt did do those things - during the regular season, but as I said previously, his play in the playoffs dropped off. He goes down in scoring, assists, free throw%, FG % and went up in only one category, rebounding.

The playoffs have tougher competition than the regular season.


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## oppression

hehe, sorry about that, I hadn't seen your post before I started typing mine  

My candidate no. 2: Bill Russell

We begin in college. In college, Bill Russell won 2 championships in 3 seasons with the University of San Francisco (keep in mind freshmen did not play back then). Mr. Jordan won one championship in 3 seasons. No matter what spin you'd wish to add to that lone Jordan championship, Mr. Jordan was not the star of the 1982 Tar Heels; Big Game James was. Furthermore, Mr. Russell was on a team that won 55 consecutive games  . This is remarkable, but it's made absolutley ungodly in its distinction when you note that they played only road games, for they did not have a home gynasium (imagine keeping up with school and midterms and finals and such while touring the country).

I suppose one could point out that USF made the Final 4 the year after Russell graduated, but then i would note that UNC made the championship game the year BEFORE Jordan joined (making it 1981 and 1982).

NBA:

Bill Russell played 13 seasons as part of the most formidable dynasty ever to grace the NBA (hence some circles call them "THE Dynasty"). His teams played in the NBA Finals 12 of those 13 seasons. They won the title in 11 of those seasons, including eight seasons in a row. In his second season, he played in the sixth game on a severely sprained ankle, and his team lost in overtime. Jordan fans would like to note that had Jordan not retired, the Bulls would have won 8 or 9 straight, but that'd be ignoring Jordan's return in 1995.

Russell, like Jordan, happened to have good teammates and coaches. However, consider that the Celtics did not win the title until Russell joined the Celtics, and failed to make the playoffs the year after he retired, going from NBA champion to no playoff appearance at all. Jordan fans will try to say the same thing about the 1999 seasons, but the Bulls lost eight players, four of which were starters – big difference. This is an undisputed fact: Jordan retired in 1993, and the Bulls still made the playoffs, nearly capturing the best record in the east. It is simple to see that not only was Russell a bigger winner than Jordan when you count championships, but also more valuable to his Celtics than Mr. Jordan to his Bulls.

Here's a quick note that I hear often: Bill Russell was a great player who benefitted from having an exceptional team around him, hence the championships. _This is very very true_. However, the same applies to Mr. Jordan. Jordan played on three losing teams before Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant joined the fold. Mr. Jordan could not win by himself. However, he was not as missed by his team in his retirement in 1993 as Russell was gravely missed by the Celtics.

Sure enough, you could argue that Mr. Jordan scored _faaaar_ more points than Mr. Russell. This is true, and indeed Bill Russell's offensive game was very limited (Chamberlain's wasn't on the other hand). But, it doesn't matter!! It seems as if Bill Russell's method of helping teams win championships (through being a defensive, rebounding madman) was more effective than Jordan's point bloodletting because Mr. Russell contributed to more championships than Mr. Jordan. Michael Jordan scored an impressive 63 points on the Celtics in a 1986 series, yet, who won? From what I perceive and what Mr. Russell's true "handful" of rings will show, Mr. Russell contributed more to his team than Mr. Jordan, was more successful, and is a better player.

Mr. Admin (I try to be formal  ) :

You point out that Mr. Chamberlain's statistics taper off in the playoffs, and this is true. The fact of the matter is, even as you pointed out  , the playoffs are more competitive, and this is the creme de la creme. And there's always detracting arguments you could attach to my 'candidates'. But i'd like to note that in the 1967 Eastern Conference finals, Wilt averaged 22 ppg, 32 rpg, and 10 apg (impressive, eh?).

And it seems that Bill Russell excelled more in the playoffs, where it really counts as you say, eh?


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## Wiggum

Oscar Robertson (my all-time favorite player)

Career stats:

- 25.7 PPG (9th all-time)
- 26,710 points (8th all-time)
- 9.5 APG (3rd all-time)
- 9,887 assists (3rd all-time)
- 42.2 MPG (3rd all-time)
- 43,886 minutes (10th all-time)

Career accomplishments:

- NBA Rookie of the Year (1961)
- NBA MVP (1964)
- All-NBA First team (1961-1969)
- All-NBA Second team (1970, 1971)
- 12 time NBA All-Star (1961-1972)
- 3 time All-Star MVP (1961, 1964, 1969)
- All-Star Record for most free throws attempted (98)
- Second place all-time in all-star scoring (246 pts., 20.5 PPG)
- Led NBA in scoring in 1968 (29.2 PPG)
- Averaged the only triple-double in NBA history (30.8 PPG, 12.5 RPG, 11.4 APG) in 1962
- Led the NBA in assists 8 times (1961, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969)
- Sacramento Kings all-time leader in points (22,009) and assists (7,731)
- NBA 35th Anniversary All-Time Team
- NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Here is an excerpt from his bio on hoophall.com...

"Whenever basketball discussions turn to naming the greatest player in history, Oscar Robertson's name is always prominently mentioned. Red Auerbach, who coached a slew of Hall of Famers with the Boston Celtics, rates Robertson as the best, most versatile player he has ever seen. Most other basketball experts would agree: the "Big O" could do it all. He was an unstoppable offensive player; one who could score from every spot on the court and in any manner he saw fit. Robertson's offensive prowess changed the point guard stereotype from simply a passer and "floor general" to a scorer and offensive weapon. Robertson truly had a presence on the court."


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## oppression

hehe, that was one of my other candidates, and, as statistics shall show, the most well-rounded basketball player ever to play the game.


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## GNG

*Thank you, Forever Best...*

 Please refrain from direct attacks aimed at other posters, thanks - BCH


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## ChiBron

> Jordan played on three losing teams before Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant joined the fold.


This fact is unbelievably ignored by the media and MJ lovers. That MJ still needed a terrific supporting cast around him to become great. Even when the bulls were winning all those championships during the 90's, the media still covered the bulls as if the entire organization was riding MJ's back(a big reason y Krause and a lot of bulls didn't like jordan). No doubt MJ was a freakish player, but the best he was ever able to do without Pippen and PJ was win 40 games, and get kicked out of the first round.

When the Bulls had a terrific season in 94 W/O Jordan. The media ridiculously nitpicked on how lucky the team was, and especially downgrading Pippen' contributions that year. It was as if they simply weren't able to live with the fact that Jordan wasn't carrying a 1 man team by any means.

I just don't like the way media has made Jordan in to some kind of God. He was an unbelievable player and accomplished a lot on and off the court, but had twice the help to achieve that status then the media tells.


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## Louie

Okay, I gotta take issue with this thread; not only was Jordan the "best" player ever according to Dee Bo's description, I could make the case that he was the most dominant player ever. It drives me crazy when people only look at the stats-especially regular season stats. Wilt averaged 50 pts a game in the REGULAR SEASON in a league populated by SHORT, SLOW WHITE GUYS. That's not to take away from the player he was, but I guarantee if he played in today's league he wouldn't be regarded as being even as good as Shaq. More importantly, the defintion of what makes a great player is that he wins, and he comes up big for his team when it counts. The higher the stakes, the worse Wilt played. When Wilt finally did get a ring, Jerry West was the one who went out and won it for him. Shaq's quite a bit better down the stretch, but still can't dominate a 4th quarter the way Jordan could. Russell was a smart tough player and a great winner, but he was not the one who took over at the end of games either cause he wasn;t that type of player. I've never, ever heard anyone argue that Russell or Oscar were as good as Jordan. Forget stats, no player has ever had Jordan's ability to completely take over a game down the stretch. A few have been close (Magic and Larry come to mind), but I think most everyone who knows the game agrees that Jordan was the greatest ever, period. Stats mean nothing if you don't do it when it counts.


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## TheRifleman

Uhhh, Wilt won before Jerry West, in 1967 with the Philly team. He won his 2nd title with Mr. West.

If taking over a game when it counts is a sign of being the greatest, then Mr. Russell would win that, as he took over games with his defense - when it counted.

The league wasn't 90% white in the 60s when Wilt played; it probably wasn't even 60% white. You'd have a hard time convincing Oscar, and many other black players in the 60s that they were in a vast minority. You do Wilt a disservice when you say he played against slow white players. Yes, there were more white players then, but the centers he faced were not all white.

Nate Thurmond
Willis Reed
Walt Bellamy
Bill Russell
Wes Unseld

Just to name 5 of the top centers in the 60s and 70s that Wilt faced out of the 14 teams that existed then. He had to play Russell & the others 8 or 10 times a year, not 4 times or 2 times a year with only 14 teams for the 80 games.


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## R-Star

On top of that, who does Shaq play that is such a great force as a center? Zo or Deke? There were just as good of centers around when Wilt played too, if not better. The only reason everyone thinks Jordan is the best is because we grew up watching him play, the only place we can see guys like Wilt play is on ESPN Classics. I agree whole heartedly with Oppression. Wilt was a better player than MJ. And also more dominant. PERIOD.


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## Petey

I think it's crazy and almost impossible to play guys of different eras like this. It's unrealistic to prove anything, you might change a person's view, but not much more then that.

-Petey


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## Killuminati

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> I think it's crazy and almost impossible to play guys of different eras like this. It's unrealistic to prove anything, you might change a person's view, but not much more then that.
> 
> -Petey


I agree


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## hogey11

i think the biggest thing to remember is that the eras were completely different. If you put michael jordan into wilt chamberlains time, he would COMPLETELY DOMINATE. no question about it. mj would run circles around them. now there is no question that wilt, russell, robertson and co are in the top 5 or 10 of all time, but MJ wins the best-ever title because of not only his dominance, but the fact that he played when the league was stronger than the other years. i'm sure that in 20 years, we'll be yelling at ppl who are saying that lebron james was the best player of all time (calm down, just an example ...) but anyways, i think MJ is the greatest of all time, not only cause of his play, but also due to the competition he faced.


PS look at the recent 100point breakout (all one of them lol) by Dajuan wagner in high school. do you think he would have scored 100 if he was playing oak hill academy? me neither.


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## FOREVER_BEST

HOW "DOMINANT" DO YOU THINK WILT CAN BE HAD HE PLAY IN THIS WBC TOURNAMENT ??CAN HE LEADS TEAM USA TO A GOLD MEDAL LOL ) LOOK AT THIS TEAM USA. THEY CANT EVEN GET PAST A WHITE ESPENOL TEAM WITH PAU GASOL AS THEIR SOLE STAR (OR SUPER STAR IF HES IN YOUR LIST) PAU GASOL OVER A GROUP OF SUPER STARS ?? ELTON BRAND ?? J ONEAL ?? YOUR MOST UNDERRATED PLAYER, THE DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR. MISTER "B" WALLACE ??   LOLLLLLLLLL   
AHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHA.............


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## FOREVER_BEST

oops. my bad. sorry about the caps. i was kinda upset when processing that feedback and didnt notice i was typing in cap. yoooooooooo hooooooooooooooo


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## oppression

if i could:

*INTERIOR DEFENSE DOES IT ALL*
SPMJ hit the nail on the head. Without interior defense, the Bulls lose. The media often ignores that. Such is why the Bulls lost in the playoffs even with Mr. Jordan, for Horace Grant had defected to the Magic (the team that no doubt eliminated the Bulls from the playoffs last year)

*DOMINANCE? HARDLY* 
I definitely disagree with Louie's take on this. If Mr. Jordan were the most dominating player, he should have had remarkable rebounding statistics. Yet, he averages 6.20 rebounds a game? Granted, I will not argue with his 1989 season, for that was a phenomenal season for Mr. Jordan. Yet, Oscar Robertson averages more than that for his first 5 seasons. Hogey's take is that he'd run circles on players from the 60s and 70s. Granted there would be no litmus test for this, but I can tell you that not everyone was slow. Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain were champion track atheletes. Hell, Chamberlain even played as a guard for the Harlem Globetrotters when they were touring the world taking on international basketball elite. Furthermore, Walt Frazier and Jerry West demonstrated remarkable speed. Frazier also was nominated for the first 7 All-Defensive teams since its inception in 1969...2 years after he started playing. Does that prove anything in terms of Jordan being able to run circles around those players? Not a whole lot. But it should say that Mr. Jordan would not have an easy time playing against the likes of Mr. West and Walt Frazier, Nate Archibald even.

*SHORT, SLOW WHITE GUYS, EH?*
This forum's administrator handled that argument quite nicely. It should be noted that Wilt Chamberlain was not the tallest player in the league, nor was he ever. Swede Halbrook was at the time. Furthermore, Wilt Chamberlain's go-to move was not the dunk (to debunk the myth that Wilt dunked over people as Shaq does today)...his arsenal relied more on a finger roll, fade-away, or the spot-up 18 footer. He never dunked over these, short, slow white guys with regularity, rather use a diverse range of post weapons. Furthermore, to draw racial boundaries between talent is sort of unfruitful...

*A DILUTED LEAGUE*
There's no doubt in my mind, nor in anyone else's that Mr. Jordan played some prime quality opponents in the NBA Finals (for this argument). Such talent include, but are not limited to, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Shawn Kemp (at the time), Gary Payton, and Charles Barkley. However, the NBA, due to overgrown expansion, is a water-down version of what it once was. Take for example the 1997 NBA Finals. Such future hall-of-famers include of that series: *John Stockton, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman (if he doesn't get in, i'll be pissed), and Karl Malone.* That's 6. Sitting at home were: *David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Gary Payton, and Clyde Drexler.* That brings the total to *9 players on almost 30 teams*. Now look at the 1973 NBA Finals, pitting the New York Knicks and the Los Angeles Lakers. Hall of Famers of that series include: *Willis Reed, Earl Monroe, Walt Frazier, Jerry Lucas, Dave DeBusschere, Wilt Chamberlain, and Jerry West.* That ALONE is 7. Sitting at home were: *Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Oscar Robertson, Hal Greer, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Nate Archibald, John "Hondo" Havlicek, Lenny Wilkens, and Nate Thurmond.*. That brings that total to *18 players on 16 teams*.

Again, in the 1987 NBA Finals, pitting the Showtime Lakers against the Boston Celtics, 7 all-time greats were playing: *Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, Big Game James Worthy, Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, and Bill Walton*. Sitting at home were: * Sir Charles Barkley, the Malones (Karl and Moses), John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, Patrick Ewing, Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan, Julius Erving, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Isiah Thomas* 18 players in a 21 team league. The only excuse for this is that Mr. Jordan plays in a diluted league, with weaker "talent" than that in the 60s, 70s, and up until 89 when expansion went into full swing and teams like the Heat, T-wolves, and Hornets entered the league, magnified by the Grizzlies and Raptors' addition.

Again, thanks for this discussion, I truly enjoy discussions as so.

Best,
O


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## buduan

Wow oppression that is some good isht. My opinion is that there is no greatest basketball player in the history of the game. Just like there is no greatest football player, baseball player, actor, comedian, etc.....

There are just a lot of superstars that each changed the game in their own unique way. If you ever saw Kareem play in the 70's or Wilt in the 60's you would know what dominating your opposition looked like. MJ is one of the greatest to ever play the game, but to say that he was greater than some of the studs that came before him is ignorant. Ignorant to the fact that there are people with more hardware than him, more ridiculous numbers, and greater feats. Who can forget Magic coming into the Finals in game 6 as a center and dropping 42 as a ROOKIE!!!

Or Wilt's 100 point game? Oscar averaging a triple double for a entire season? Russels 11 titles? Kareem's 6 titles, 6 MVPS and 38k points to go along with the longevity.

The game has changed too much for us too say with certainty that one player is better than the ones that came before him.

Jordan was the player of the 90's no question. But unless you have a time machine and can transport all these greats to the same era where they can duke it out, you will never convince me he is the "Greatest."


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> Okay, I gotta take issue with this thread; not only was Jordan the "best" player ever according to Dee Bo's description, I could make the case that he was the most dominant player ever. It drives me crazy when people only look at the stats-especially regular season stats. Wilt averaged 50 pts a game in the REGULAR SEASON in a league populated by SHORT, SLOW WHITE GUYS. That's not to take away from the player he was, but I guarantee if he played in today's league he wouldn't be regarded as being even as good as Shaq.


good post,

but i have to disagree... we could also argue that while wilt played in the league populated by short slow white guys, jordan didnt face many freakishly athletic defenders himself, you've got 6'4 john starks, 6'4 jeff hornacek, byron russel, etc.... jordan didnt face the ron artests, al harringtons, the shawn marions, the kobes, the tmac, the pierces, the kg's etc.... defenders are more athletic nowadays then they've ever been, BUT, this is now and that was then, you cant take away from mj because of who he faced _at the time_, just like you cant discount wilt's accomplishements based on who he faced on a daily basis, be it slow white guys or athletic freaks IMHO


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## harper time

For now, I think, Jordan is the best player ever.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>oppression</b>!
> Quite simply, Jordan did not dominate the league like Chamberlain did.


One might argue, Wilt didn't dominate the league the way MJ did; after all, Jordan was the one winning the championships. While Wilt was losing to Bill Russell and the boys.:laugh:


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> One might argue, Wilt didn't dominate the league the way MJ did; after all, Jordan was the one winning the championships. While Wilt was losing to Bill Russell and the boys.:laugh:


Well Jordan didn't play against a team that had 8 future hall-of-famers like Wilt did when he played against the Celtics..Wilt is the best player of the two, no one else has ever lead the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and assists.


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## hOnDo

There isn't a "best ever player". Each player that has played in the NBA has played in different circumstances than another. Different times, teams, etc. It doesn't work to compare people when they have different circumstances and have played in different eras of basketball.


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## Louie

> INTERIOR DEFENSE DOES IT ALL-SPMJ hit the nail on the head. Without interior defense, the Bulls lose. The media often ignores that. Such is why the Bulls lost in the playoffs even with Mr. Jordan, for Horace Grant had defected to the Magic (the team that no doubt eliminated the Bulls from the playoffs last year


I don't know if you realize this, but Horace was taller than Bill Russell, and Rodman was the same height. Anyway, interior D is nowhere near as important as you make it seem-it could easily be oversome by Jordan's superior perimeter O.



> Well Jordan didn't play against a team that had 8 future hall-of-famers like Wilt did when he played against the Celtics..Wilt is the best ever, no one else has ever lead the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and assists.


The Celtics played so well together that they made each other Hall of Famers- had they all been on different teams, they would not all have been HOF'ers-some would, but that;s another topic...anyway, like I said before, REGULAR SEASON STATS MEAN NOTHING IF YOU CHOKE WHEN IT COUNTs , like Wilt did consistently. I would consider Shaq and Russell both better players, but neither as good as Jordan.



> Uhhh, Wilt won before Jerry West, in 1967 with the Philly team. He won his 2nd title with Mr. West. If taking over a game when it counts is a sign of being the greatest, then Mr. Russell would win that, as he took over games with his defense - when it counted.


 Oops, my bad on that, i thoguht he won first with L.A. Even still, that Philly team was stacked with awesome players-Billy Cunningham was the sixth man for petes sake-it would have been an embarassment if they didn't win, and even still it was not Wilt who went out there and won it for them when it counted. As for Russell, I agree totally that he stepped up defensively when it counted and was a great winner, but you cannot "take over" a game defensively. You can vastly change the game, and Russell did, but ultimatlely you have to outscore the other team to win, and Jordan did that better than anyone, while making great contributions on D as well.
I really respect all your opinions, guys, but to argue that Wilt faced the smae kind of competition as Jordan, Magic, Bird or Shaq is ludicrous- you must realize this. I'm not saying that there weren't good athletes or that the L was 90% white, but you have to see that the athletes of the 80's and 90's as well as today were vastly superior to those of the 60's- all the centers you named, Rifleman, were like 6'9 (I know Russell and Reed were, correct me if I'm wrong about the others), and the only one that came close to Wilt's athleticism was Russell. In the past 20 years, we've had D-Rob(7-1), Ewing(7'0), Mutumbo(7'2), Olajuwon(7'1), Kareem (7'1), Mourning (6'11), Divac (7'0), Parrish (7'0), and of course the Diesel. The league has never seen such skilled, athletic, and big centers as in these past 20 years. That's not even to mention how much bigger/stronger/faster all other position players have become.


> Wilt was a better player than MJ. And also more dominant. PERIOD.


I can't even begin to say all the things that are wrong with this statement. Personally, I cannot see how someone who actually watched both players could say this. Let me reiterate this- in this situation, stats mean nothing.


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## Thrilla

*Re: Thank you, Forever Best...*



> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> Please refrain from direct attacks aimed at other posters, thanks - BCH


Especially to mods. aqua


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## OZZY

Who ever started this thread just wants attention and post on here obviously. That is the only reason why someone would make that statement.


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## R-Star

Hey, I've got a crazy idea for you Ozzy. Instead of jumping in here out of nowhere, you could go to PAGE 1 and look at who started the thread.Stop attacking other posters. aquaitious


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## JNice

Oppression, your arguments are very good.. but in my humble opinion, Jordan is still the "best" player of all time. I would admit I think to this point Chamberlain is the most dominant player ever.

Watching Jordan play, he could completely control a game from tipoff to the final horn. And he could do it offensively and defensively. Of course he didnt grab as many rebounds as Chamerblain, that wasnt his job, but Jordan certainly grabbed hundreds of important rebounds at crucial points in games. As well as getting the crucial steal, or making an game-winning assist or shot.

As far as Shaq not coming close to Chamerlain's stats... that is true, but it is a different game. I dont think any player has ever been subjected to the league changing the rules just to slow him down. Not only that, but facing double-triple teams constantly, especially pre-Kobe.. And Shaquille still dominated the league as a young player when Hakeem, Ewing, Mutombo, Smits, Alonzo were all prime-time NBA centers. I would say that if Shaq really tried to, he could pretty easily average around 40 points a game in a season, although that would probably never happen because it would not be good for the team.

I dont think Chamberlain faced quite the defensive athletes that Oneal does. In today's NBA, you regularly find small forwards and shooting guards that run 6'9" - 6'10" ... 

To me, Jordan is the GOAT, and will be for some time.. Kobe, or even Tmac, could come close, but I still don't think they'll reach his level. Accomplishments wise, Kobe will be right there, but playing with Shaq wont help his argument for greatest ever..


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## robyg1974

*About Wilt...*

My vote for the greatest goes to Wilt. Hands down. Not even close. One year, after hearing from critics what an incredibly selfish player he was, he went out and led the league in assists. People, think about that for a second. A center led the league in assists. Completely unprecedented.

It's nice to see that there are some people around here--oppression & TheRifleman in particular--who know their Wilt stuff.

To those who don't know their Wilt stuff. Fellas, go to yr public library and see if they have Wilt's autiobiography. Talk about HI-LA-RI-OUS! Talk about yr braggarts! The dude does not STOP bragging! And he doesn't just brag about his basketball exploits--he tells you plenty about his sexual exploits, as well. HI-LA-RI-OUS!

After you read that mother scratcher, trust me, you'll be impressed.


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## Jermainiac

If u go by stats, it's Wilt. I think it's retarded 2 compare NBA players. They all doi different things. I think the real question should be: Who is the best @ what they do??? I mean, Jamison Brewer could be the best player in history! He's just that-damn-good @ being a benchwarmer! Maybe Mateen Cleaves, best waterboy in history, and can play nothing-minutes 2 boot!

:rbanana: :gbanana: :banana:


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## jazzy1

I agree with whoever said that its not just about stats , truth be told Wilt's numbers were inflated because of his stature and his athleticism were kinda ahead of his time, there just wasn't many good athletes his size during that ERA the only one comparable was Russell who routinely beat Wilt I know Russell's teams were better but Wilt was always somewhat contained by Russell, all that being said if Wilt played today in his prime he would be just as dominant as Shaq is today, in his best year it'd look like Shaq years now, Wilt was great but some of those numbers were inflated against a smaller talent pool and less teams. 


Now Jordan was just plain dominant the most skillful player ever thoroughly dominant, reduced great athletes to looking like role players, ie Drexler, had no physical advantage other than being a great athlete but just killed people it's not about stats its about effect and no one was as dominant, 

all that being said I think Magic is the greatest player of all time the effect he had on a game was incredible just controlled his team in all facets never saw a player just control and will his team like Magic, Magic had many impressive numbers, maybe not like Jordan,but he deserves to be in this conversation, he just would never let his team give in and the game that Kareem sat out and he got 42 pts playing all 5 positions is still the greatest single game I've ever seen an individual play, so my vote goes to Magic.


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## Petey

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> ...Magic had many impressive numbers, maybe not like Jordan,but he deserves to be in this conversation, he just would never let his team give in and the game that Kareem sat out and he got 42 pts playing all 5 positions is still the greatest single game I've ever seen an individual play, so my vote goes to Magic.


Yeah I remember all that he did, he was one hell of a player for sure.

-Petey


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## DaBullz

Terrific thread guys!

As you can tell by my handle, I'm a Bulls fan. And of course I revere Jordan for bringing an actual winning team to Chicago on a consistent basis.

However, even with 20-20 hindsight, if I had first pick in the 84 draft, I'd still take Hakeem.

But I'll agree with the folks who say you can't say any one player is the greatest of all time. You can say "greatest scorer" and point to scoring stats, but even then the difference in eras the players played is such a subjective thing.

Jordan certainly had as good a competitive drive (to win) as anyone - another thing that is subjective. But even he had to have a complementary team around him, particularly at least 3 1st team defense caliber players (Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Grant, Armstrong) to get the gold ring.

When Jordan retired the first time, the team lost an average of just a few points per game. It wasn't so much that he was the team, but more a vital ingredient of the winning formula.

Now for fun, I'll offer that Jerry West's season stats look like Jordan-type numbers to me.

Nobody's stats look like Wilt's. But I wonder how Wilt would truly fare against an Artis Gilmore or Shaq...

Other players that should be considered are Magic, Oscar Robertson, Kareem, Dr. J, Baylor, Hayes, etc.

If career longevity is unimportant (and I would argue it is unimportant), then guys like Bill Walton come to mind.

If players do not have to have every tool (i.e. like play defense), then there are guys like Maravich, Archibald, McAoo (misspelled intentionally, because no 'D' , and gervin come to mind.


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## OZZY

Please do not turn this into a thread about the original poster. If you do not like the topic, you do not need to contribute. If you have a point, make it rather than theorizing why the post was made. If you have any questions please PM me. - BCH


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## Shadows

OZZY read his follow up post. Infact he makes a great argument on why he feels MJ is not the greatest of all time.


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## OZZY

And to get on the topic, Wilt is not better than Jordan because Wilt did not win as much as Jordan did. Winners are always the better players, stats are for the record books, winners are for the history books. Wilt is a great player but how many titles did he win, how many game winners did he make? Michael was a combination of speed, athletic ability, character, will, passion that all NBA players should follow. Wilt was great but Michael is greater, and thus starting this post is just to get attention in my view.


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## BCH

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> And to get on the topic, Wilt is not better than Jordan because Wilt did not win as much as Jordan did. Winners are always the better players, stats are for the record books, winners are for the history books. Wilt is a great player but how many titles did he win, how many game winners did he make? Michael was a combination of speed, athletic ability, character, will, passion that all NBA players should follow. Wilt was great but Michael is greater, and thus starting this post is just to get attention in my view.


Good point. The only consistency you are going to find from one generation to another is that everyone played the game to win. MJ won a lot more than Wilt did.


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## tinygiant

A few points,
Please don't talk about whether or not someone played against white guys. It's irrelevant. A player is a player. No one ever says that Magic wasn't very good because he had to play against Bird. If the internationalization of the game has taught us anything, it's that anyone can play, if they're black, white, chinese, etc. A player is a player, and Wilt's time was filled with guys who could play. Russell, Baylor, Robertson, West, Havlicek. Great players.

Secondly, I think it's useless to talk about what might have been. If we're talking about the best ever, we can only discuss what has happened. So we can't say that Jordan might have won 9 championships if he hadn't retired. He didn't. You could carry this on forever. Maybe Wilt's early hall of fame teammate Arizin could have won some championships if he hadn't joined the army for a few years in his prime. Who knows? Jordan won 6 championships. End of story.

That having been said, I still pick Jordan as the greatest player ever. Now, my reasons. Basically I think he combined every great skill in one player. When people argue for Wilt, they argue mostly based on stats. And yes, here he was most dominant. And while Jordan's stats aren't as crazy, they're still pretty good. He is the only player to have as many seasons leading the league in scoring as Wilt. That's pretty dominant. And as anyone knows, when he wanted to take over a game, he was basically unstopable.
People who argue for Russell, mostly argue on the basis of his championships. Again, no question he has more than Jordan. Can't argue that, but championships can't be everything. Just as stats can't.
I think the reason I place Jordan number 1 is that he combined the excellence of all the great players. He could score at will like Wilt, and also show the leadership and game smarts to bring a team to the next level like Russell.
Jordan was also the most influential player, for good or bad, the game of basketball has seen since Jumpin Joe Fulks invented the jump shot. (He was also influential socially and culturally, but that's another discussion). The fact that the game is played so well around the world can be directly atrributed to his greatness and global popularity (I don't think you would see a guy play like Ginobili if it weren't for Jordan's influence). He may also be responsible for many young players ignoring the fundamentals, but that's just another testament to his effect on the game. 

There are a number of qualities that a great player can have. Unstopable scoring, great defence, leadership, clutch play, intelligent decision making. I think the greatest of these qualities were combined in one spectacular package: Michael Jordan. The greatest player of all time.


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## Ducket

> Wilt is not better than Jordan because Wilt did not win as much as Jordan did. Winners are always the better players


Using that argument, then Bill Russell was indeed the greatest to ever play the game. Ozzy, I get the feeling that you're not reading the previous posts in this thread.


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## OZZY

> Using that argument, then Bill Russell was indeed the greatest to ever play the game. Ozzy, I get the feeling that you're not reading the previous posts in this thread.


You could make that argument, but Bill Russell never hit winning shots at the buzzer or pulled his team to a win only using his competitive fire. Russell was a winner and that is why many say he is better than Wilt, but Russell did not have that contaguous competitive spirit MJ had, he could make his team believe they can win any game. Why? Because Michael had there backs, and when needed he could make and take the clutch shots. MJ is the greatest though in my book, and there are m billions that would back me up.


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## Gmoney

The best player of ALL-TIME has to be based on winning championships because nothing else matters look Karl Malone is going to break the ALL-TIME scoring mark set by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and has never won a title so where does that place him in the running???? The best player of ALL-TIME who has won more championships than any player EVER is Bill Russell he won multiple titles with 4 totally differnt players in the lineup next to him. This arguement is not about stats or who dunked the best or blicked the most shots it can only be based on WINNING and for that fact how could you say anyone else besides Bill Russell??? You can argue about how few teams there were in the league back then and all the other nonsense but is that his fault ??? NO....... :grinning:


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## tinygiant

The best player can't just be championships. That is far too simplistic. It (if it's going to be rated at all) has to be a combination of a bunch of the things that make a great player.
In hockey, there's a guy who won the same number of championships as Russell. His name was Henry Richard and he won 11 Stanley Cups, but no one is going to claim that he was the best hockey player of all time. He was good, but it takes more than just wins.


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## robyg1974

Luc Longley won more championships than Wilt Chamberlain, so I suppose that Longley is a better player than Wilt? Give me a break. We're not talking about what is the greatest TEAM, we're talking about who is the greatest PLAYER. Obviously, the Jordan Era Bulls were a better TEAM than the Wilt Era 76ers. I GUESS. Keep in mind that the Russell Era Celtics were HANDS DOWN the greatest TEAM ever, there's no point in even discussing it. What this means is that the SECOND-best team during the 1960s could THEORETICALLY be the SECOND-best team EVER, you know what I'm saying? The SECOND-best team during the Russell Era--the team that simply couldn't knock off Russell's Celtics (a team that got more calls than Shaq's Lakers or Jordan's Bulls, believe it or not)--COULD be able to knock off Jordan's Bulls or Shaq's Lakers.

The point here is that you have to put statistics and accomplishments into CONTEXT. Sure, Wilt won "only" two championships, but is there any doubt that, if Russell and Wilt switched places in the early 1960s, that WILT would have won all those championships, and that RUSSELL would be getting dissed for only winning one or two championships? You know what I'm saying?

I'm going to go look up some old stats, I'm going to find out which teams lost to Russell's Celtics throughout The Russell Era. I'm interested in knowing how many times Wilt's team lost to Russell's Celtics in the playoffs. I'll be back in a few.

Again, fellas, go check out Wilt's autobiography from yr public library, it's totally hilarious, plus you'll learn a lot about what kind of player he was. And TRUST ME, he is not humble, he is very persuasive in his "I am the greatest ever" argument.


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## kflo

while you're looking, find out how many times wilt's teams lost as the higher seed. now look at russell and jordan. find out how many times wilt's teams won when loaded with talent (1966 - 1973). there is doubt wilt would have won as much on the celts because wilt's teams didn't always play as well as they looked on paper.

there's certainly no proof that russell's celts were the best team ever (that they could beat any other team ever), only that they were the most dominant in their era for the longest time.


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## DaBullz

> Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!
> Luc Longley won more championships than Wilt Chamberlain, so I suppose that Longley is a better player than Wilt? Give me a break.


I forgot to mention something in my previous post, and you reminded me with the above.

Clifford Ray may have more career victories with teams he's played on than any other player. For at least the first 10 years of his career (I'm pretty sure), he never played on a team that finished worse than 2nd.

I actually do think he was a much better player than his stats will show, as he did guard (effectively) some of the best centers to ever play. But I would hardly call him one of the greatest players - he couldn't score very well, and I witnessed him miss dunks on numerous occaisions.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

IMO-Magic is the best player ever:

He could play all 5 positions

He could score a lot when he was asked too

He was a great passer

He could rebound well

He won (not a main issue IMO, but everyone here seems to think wins are the most important thing)


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## TheRifleman

I agree that magic could indeed be classified as the greatest of all time. There are sounds arguments for at least 5 to 10 of the 50 greatest players of all time.

Magic revolutionized the point guard position AND his teams won.

Oscar could be classified in the best, but many say he couldn't win until he had Kareem, but then again, Kareem couldn't win again - either - until he had Magic. 

The greatest of all time is based purely subjective opinions, as people can argue over what is more important - even so far as to think it is impossible to take over a game without scoring. But then again, Kidd has done that very thing, so it is possible in different eras to take over games without scoring. 

Nobody will ever agree on who is the "best".


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## Louie

> You could make that argument, but Bill Russell never hit winning shots at the buzzer or pulled his team to a win only using his competitive fire. Russell was a winner and that is why many say he is better than Wilt, but Russell did not have that contaguous competitive spirit MJ had, he could make his team believe they can win any game. Why? Because Michael had there backs, and when needed he could make and take the clutch shots. MJ is the greatest though in my book, and there are m billions that would back me up.


Count me as one of them! Great point Ozzy.



> Luc Longley won more championships than Wilt Chamberlain, so I suppose that Longley is a better player than Wilt? Give me a break. We're not talking about what is the greatest TEAM, we're talking about who is the greatest PLAYER. Obviously, the Jordan Era Bulls were a better TEAM than the Wilt Era 76ers. I GUESS. Keep in mind that the Russell Era Celtics were HANDS DOWN the greatest TEAM ever, there's no point in even discussing it. What this means is that the SECOND-best team during the 1960s could THEORETICALLY be the SECOND-best team EVER, you know what I'm saying? The SECOND-best team during the Russell Era--the team that simply couldn't knock off Russell's Celtics (a team that got more calls than Shaq's Lakers or Jordan's Bulls, believe it or not)--COULD be able to knock off Jordan's Bulls or Shaq's Lakers.


Who says the Russell era Celtics were the greatest team ever hands down? No doubt they dominated for longer than any other team, but Their 8 straight titles are like Wilt's 50 ppg- you have to look at them in context. Did any of the Russell Celtic teams ever win 72 games in a season? Personally, I think that team would've been overmatched by the 85-86 Celts, 86-87 Lakers, or 95-96 Bulls. It'd be a great series, but the old Celtic players would be so overmatched physically it'd be really tough for them to win. There's no way, IMO, that the second best team of that era could beat Jordan's Bulls or Shaq's Lakers.
I have no doubt that Wilt was the most gifted player ever, and if he had had even a fraction of Jordan's or even Russell's heart and intensisty he would have been the greatest ever.


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## Louie

> IMO-Magic is the best player ever:


I could make a much stronger case for Magic than for Wilt or Russell- he and Bird, IMO, are not far off from Jordan. But Magic has even admitted that he wasn't as good as Mike (if i can find this quote again I'll post it). I'd still take him over either Wilt or Russell or Oscar for my all-time team, but it's close cause they were all great players.


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## OZZY

There are a ton of things you could look at in the "greatest player ever" topic. But only about I would say 1-3% of the worlds population would say someone other than Michael Jordan, all the players that play now say it and most of the former players say he is the best as well.

If you look at.........

*Athletic ability: Obivously has it, can flat out fly in his prime, probably the best dunker in NBA history, no player had a logo where he is jumping before, and what kid doesn't have that free throw line dunk poster in there room, get up with anyone in history at his athletic ability was one of the traits that made him the best.

*Competitive fire: This is Michael, I don't think you could find a more competitive drive player in basketball, he worked harder than anyone and was modest about it, great work ethic and that helped improve his game so it was way better than the others, he willed his teams to victory, he made them win and would not accept lossing of any kind, most competitive player in history MJ.

*Media: Michael was great with the media and that could be why everyone likes him, but he lets most of his play do the talking, he did not talk trash in the media confrences, he did not call out players, he was just laid back, and he knew that he was a role model to kids so he acted like one also, could make the argument that Jordan is the best role model in NBA history.

*Smarts: He was constently improving his ability to play, he was master at using moves like pump fakes and pull up jump shots to score, he could do it athletically but he figured out how to score if he could not drive by someone.

*Clutch play: I don't even have to say a word, you all know that he can hit the big shot, probably better than any player in history, and I don't know but he might have made the most winning shots in history, it was either him or Jerry West.


(I could easily argue that Michael Jordan is the most athletic player in history/ most competitive player in history/ best role model in basketball history/ most clutch player in NBA history/ smartest player in NBA history.....................

Could you make that same argument with Wilt? I say no!


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## Louie

Thank you, Ozzy! I couldn't possibly have said it better myself. I almost never feel like I can completely dismiss an arguement, but I have yet to see I legitimate support for Wilt over Michael in a head-to-head comparison. 99% of all basketball experts will tell you that Jordan is the greatest ever for the reasons you just mentioned. I really have trouble accepting the arguement that you can't compare players from different eras- you can, you just have to keep in mind circumstances like the comparative athleticism/size/speed of the players. Nobody's saying that there weren't excellent athletes/players in Wilt's era, but you guys simply have to acknowledge that Wilt's competition wasn't up to par with the athleticism/size/speed of the players- this is not an opinion, it can be proven. Anyone can rattle off names like Elgin Baylor and Bill Russell and say, "look, these guys were good athletes and they played in that era". That's not the point. Remember how amazed everyone was when Dr.J first dunked from the free throw line? How many guys are there in the league today who can do that? Alot. How many more legitimate 7'footers with skill, size, athleticism and strength has the league seen in the last 20 years than in the 20 years before that? It's ridiculous to claim that Wilt could have averaged 50 ppg in any era- I've seen him play on ESPN classic many times, and he looks like a skinnier Shaq with better hops and worse post moves.


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## oppression

Wow...I'm disgusted at all the illogic I see on this forum...

You do not make it better by attacking back. Do not attack other posters. - BCH 

Athletic ability: Jordan's pales in comparison to Wilt's plain and simple, the man was a track star, ran marathons at age 60, had a near 4ft vertical, benchlifted 500lbs, upon many others...

Competitive fire: Completly arbitrary, there is no way to measure this at all...how can you say Wilt or Oscars fire wasn't even greater but his teammates were ignorant to it?

Media: The biggest factor of all about how great a player is...because if he doesn't please the media then he is blacklisted and can do no right....but if he does...he is one of the greats...

Smarts: Again an arbitrary unprovable statement...even a medicore mind could probably learn to improve his game...look at Shaq...

Clutch play: Who hit the biggest shots for the Bulls? Jim Paxton? Steve Kerr? Who hit lots of pointless regular season buzzer beaters over the Cavs and Nets? Who got stripped by Nick Anderson? Who pushed off to hit a buzzer beater? Who's nickname is "clutch"? If Jordan is so great and the Bulls are so amazing...why should they even be in that kind of situation where they need to win on the last shot?



> I've seen [Wilt] play on ESPN classic many times, and he looks like a skinnier Shaq with better hops and worse post moves.


that just makes my head hurt...



> Did any of the Russell Celtic teams ever win 72 games in a season?


Did they play in a tougher non-expansion watered down league? Yes. In 1958-59 they would've had to go 72-0, 72-3 the next year, 72-7, then 72-8...a much harder feat than the Bulls...especially in a league with 10-12 teams rather than nearly 30...



> Personally, I think that team would've been overmatched by the 85-86 Celts, 86-87 Lakers, or 95-96 Bulls.


Despite having about 8 Hall Of Famers on the team?



> but the old Celtic players would be so overmatched physically it'd be really tough for them to win. There's no way, IMO, that the second best team of that era could beat Jordan's Bulls or Shaq's Lakers.


Today's pansy players would not like the rough play and wimp out...

Here's the thing...I'm just using Wilt as an example here...we present Wilt's better stats...suddenly stats don't matter and we can't compare them because Wilt played Center...You mention championships, we present Russell...Suddenly Russell played in a watered down ungifted league and championships aren't important...then...in a futile attempt to validate your claims that Michael Jordan is the greatest player there will ever be in the NBA you bring up OPINIONS and pass them off as facts...MVP (again, where Jordan doesn't lead), DPOY, etc. are all opinions...they are all chosen by the media...who clearly has a bias that Louie here acknowledges exists...then you bring up arbitrary scales to judge players on such as drive/heart, etc. that we are not ones to decide...by watching a player we can determine their drive to win, I highly doubt that...

Another thing I notice...is that Jordon Jockers are quick to make it an issue between individual players...I wasn't telling you someone was the greatest of all time...I was providing evidence Jordan is not...and simply suggesting players that I felt were just as, if not more worthy than Jordan of such an accolade...

If Jordan is the greatest of all time and the greatest the NBA will EVER see shouldn't he be besting all these players? yet, he only holds 4 records to Wilt's 56? yet he's never averaged a triple double for a season? the list goes on...

Also, if you look at this from a logical point of view (unlike anyone who says Michael Jordan (or any player for that matter) is the Greatest Of All Time) we cannot determine the Greatest NBA Player Of All Time...for the simple obvious reason that the NBA has not completed it's run...therefore all-time has not passed...we can only debate the Greatest Player Yet...and that Michael Jordan is still not...I look forward to more, intelligent, mature responses...


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## "Matt!"

The point of the arguments against every player is this; Wilt could flat out score, but sucked horribly in the playoffs. Bill Russell won many championships, but didn't put up the stats. Robertson had all of the stats, but not the rings.

Jordan is the one who put them all together.


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## OZZY

I edited opression's post. So I am removing his quote -BCH

Hey I have to say my first thought on the post, and like many others just the thought of it makes you want to post something after awhile.



> Clutch play: Who hit the biggest shots for the Bulls? Jim Paxton? Steve Kerr? Who hit lots of pointless regular season buzzer beaters over the Cavs and Nets? Who got stripped by Nick Anderson? Who pushed off to hit a buzzer beater? Who's nickname is "clutch"? If Jordan is so great and the Bulls are so amazing...why should they even be in that kind of situation where they need to win on the last shot?


Ok, then I will put it this way, how many times did Wilt pass it off to another to get a shot, did Wilt make his teammates better? MJ did and is obviosly better at it than Wilt, and MJ leads better than Wilt shown by his championships on Bulls teams that had talent but were not talking world class 4-5 all stars on the team. Wilt is real close but those parts make MJ better, he did note sleep with how many thousands of women that doesn't help him with the public with that statement. But still MJ did have to hit at least 10-20 game winning shots in the NBA. Also I think it takes more skill to be a good SG than a good C, because a C and at Wilts time he could just get the ball turn and shoot, MJ had to create his shots and shoot jumpers and draw fouls to get points, not just scoring because he was bigger than everyone. And did Wilts competitive fire burn so brite that it rubbed off onto his teammates? I don't think so, another reason why MJ is better. 

But Wilts little women thing does not help him in with the media though, great player but I would not say the best ever.


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## Ducket

Nice post, oppression!



> we can only debate the Greatest Player Yet


Come on, doesn't quite have the same ring to it!


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## jazzy1

While I may not agree with the final analysis I love OPPRESSIONS argument, and no one here has suffieciently challenged his reasoning, everyone just arbitrarily says Jordans the greatest but based on what oppression has answered most retorts directly, good job man reminds me of myself around here arguing with some of the folks, but Magic still gets my vote,you are wrong about Shaq though. he's more than a mediocre mind. 

lets tackle this I didn't want to touch it but I will, Wilt choked away several titles against the Knicks when Reed was hurt you gotta get that title without really having any one to match up with, Reed scored 4 points wasn't really that effective and Wilt couldn't bring the title home, there are several instances like this through his career,Wilt was great but not the greatest he had a reluctance to be mean and nasty and humiliate opponents, he didn't really have the killer instinct that a Jordan had, or Magic, he faked out of the 7th game of Russells last game with an injury even Russell yelled for him to come back in the game, save the venom for someone else I have no axe to grind I'm a Laker fan, but Wilt lacked that killer instinct, he was a man among boys with great ability and size, he admittdly had trouble guarding Jabbar do you think he could have guarded Shaq, granted Shaq may have had trouble stoppungthe skyhook also but he would put Jabbar and Wilt through the hoop, Shaq has the nasty streak, Wilt's most famous shot was his fade away jumper, Shaq don't fade he put you through the rim.


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## BigChris

I agree with oppression: Jordan is NOT the greatest player of all-time.

Oscar and Wilt are both better candidates for that sort of acclaimation IMO.


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## Louie

> Athletic ability: Jordan's pales in comparison to Wilt's plain and simple, the man was a track star, ran marathons at age 60, had a near 4ft vertical, benchlifted 500lbs, upon many others...


This is not that important- lots of guys are better athletes than Karl Malone and Larry Bird but not better players. Jordan had awesome athleticism in addition to being the player that he was.



> Competitive fire: Completly arbitrary, there is no way to measure this at all...how can you say Wilt or Oscars fire wasn't even greater but his teammates were ignorant to it?
> Smarts: Again an arbitrary unprovable statement...even a medicore mind could probably learn to improve his game...look at Shaq...


If you do a little research on both people, you'll see that both of these can easily be proved. Jordan's whole life was dominated by the drive to get better, and he wore his competitive drive on his sleeve- he refused to lose, and when he was on top of his game the Bulls never did ,at least not series's. He has also been classified as a genius in his own way by experts on the subject- he simply had a calculating mind that was constantly figuring out ways to beat you. If Wilt had had that type of mind, I think it's safe to say that he would have won alot more than 2 titles.



> Clutch play: Who hit the biggest shots for the Bulls? Jim Paxton? Steve Kerr? Who hit lots of pointless regular season buzzer beaters over the Cavs and Nets? Who got stripped by Nick Anderson? Who pushed off to hit a buzzer beater? Who's nickname is "clutch"? If Jordan is so great and the Bulls are so amazing...why should they even be in that kind of situation where they need to win on the last shot?


This statement is ming-bogglingly uninformed. John Paxson (I assume it was him you meant, not Jim Paxton) was Jordan's bail-out guy, the guy who could hit the big shor if Jordan was double-teamed. When the stakes were highest, it was consistentl;y Jordan who took and made the big shots, and there are records that can prove this. Steve Kerr hit one big shot that I know of (1997 Finals), and it was cause Jordan was double teamed. Jordan was stripped by Nick Anderson in 94-95, when he had only been back in the league for like 18 games. Pushed off to hit the last shot? Gimme a break, so much contact is allowed in this league that that tiny push would have been allowed had it been done by any player in any situation. As for the question about why they were in so many close games, the answer is that every great team has been faced with alot of close games, especially in the Finals when the competition is so good. I guarantee Wilt faced the same amount (or close to it) of close games, the only difference was the that he DIDN'T rise to the occasion. I'm sorry, but you really showed your lack of knowledge about the Bulls with this statement.



> (Celtics would have lost to the Bulls) Despite having about 8 Hall Of Famers on the team?


Yes, despite having 8 HOF'ers. Like I said before, alot of those guys wouldn't have been HOF'ers on their own- the Celts played so well together they made each other much better. There was noone on that team who was in the same class with MJ. Also, I really, really doubt that the league was tougher back then- sure there were less teams, but basketball wasn't nearly as popular in America, meaning that alot of the talented kids of that era never really got a chance to become good players. You think that all the athletes of today came out of nowhere? More kids are exposed to b-ball nowadays, therefore there are more good players.


> lets tackle this I didn't want to touch it but I will, Wilt choked away several titles against the Knicks when Reed was hurt you gotta get that title without really having any one to match up with, Reed scored 4 points wasn't really that effective and Wilt couldn't bring the title home, there are several instances like this through his career,Wilt was great but not the greatest he had a reluctance to be mean and nasty and humiliate opponents, he didn't really have the killer instinct that a Jordan had, or Magic, he faked out of the 7th game of Russells last game with an injury even Russell yelled for him to come back in the game, save the venom for someone else I have no axe to grind I'm a Laker fan, but Wilt lacked that killer instinct, he was a man among boys with great ability and size, he admittdly had trouble guarding Jabbar do you think he could have guarded Shaq, granted Shaq may have had trouble stoppungthe skyhook also but he would put Jabbar and Wilt through the hoop, Shaq has the nasty streak, Wilt's most famous shot was his fade away jumper, Shaq don't fade he put you through the rim.


Right on, Jazzy1!


----------



## I'm Just Saying

> Playing better competition in the playoffs usually brings all great players down, but Wilt goes from 30 PPG down to 22 PPG. That is really DOWN in comparison to many other "greats" of any era. Just my personal opinion, of course.


The reason Wilt's playoff numbers are down from his regular season numbers is simple:

1) When he was averaging 30+ ppg the NBA had 8 teams so the playoff had fewer games.

2) Later in his career when he changed his game and averaged 18-24 ppg there were twice as many teams and hence twice as many playoff games.

3) Doing the math ... For example ... if Wilt averaged 30ppg a game early on in the playoffs (and he did) and later on averaged 20ppg in twice as many playoff games his overall average would be about 23 ppg (and it is).

For those of you math challenged:
An Example
30 ppg X 30 playoff games = 900 pts
20 ppg X 60 playoff games = 1200 pts
900 + 1200 = 2100 pts 
2100 pts / 90 g = 23.3 ppg


----------



## I'm Just Saying

There are Ten candidates in my opinion, in chronological order:

George Mikan
Bill Russell
Elgin Baylor
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Ervin "Magic" Johnson
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
Shaquil O'neal

In my opinion the only way to argue this question is to argue who was best against the competition of their era. 

Each great person in any field "stands on the sholders of those who went before them". You can';t argue that Einstien was greater than Newton because Einstien used the knowledge that NBewton discovered to make his own discoveries.

In the same way O'neal built on Wilt who buildt on Mikan ... etc.

By the Way ... 
it's not true that todays players can jump higher or are bigger than yesterdays ... there are just more players who can jump and are strong than there used to be (with 8 teams then vs 29 team now you'd expect that). I guarantee that none of today's players can jump any higher than the highest jumpers of the 50's and 60's. I personally saw someone snatch money off the top of a regulation backboard in 1959, he was 6'-2". 

I don't think that Shaq is stronger than Wayne Embry or Wes Unseld, Taller yes, better yes, but stronger ... I doubt it.


----------



## kflo

wilt's scoring actually decreased every season of his career from the regular season to the playoffs. now part of it is obviously playing better competition come playoff time, and facing russell as a greater % of his games didn't help. but wilt did go down in the playoffs, sometimes alot, and it sure didn't help his team.


----------



## kflo

also remember, that athletes may have been the same as they are now, but athleticism certainly wasn't coveted like it is in the nba now. the game was played differently, and that affected the makeup of the league. players who were more raw (or less structured) weren't given the opportunities they are now.


----------



## Louie

I think if Dr.J had played ten-fifteen years earlier, and teams had seen him play in college or whatever, he'd have been given a chance based on potential alone- that kind of athleticism was unprecedented at that time.


----------



## Louie

> There are Ten candidates in my opinion, in chronological order: George Mikan, Bill Russell, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Ervin "Magic" Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Shaquil O'neal


George Mikan? I'm not so sure, he was only like 6'9 and played against a pretty small talent pool. I'm also not sure sbout Baylor; I don't think he was even the best on his team (Jerry West).


----------



## Nightfly

> Originally posted by <b>lakers1</b>!
> yo be quiet man im sorry im not like u but i have a life not reading anything u can about the nba i bet ill still school u on the court


This is the craziest stuff I've ever read.

This guy seriously can't be for real.


----------



## -33-

the stupidest part of all is that you guys are comparing these two

1. LeBron James is a HIGH SCHOOL player, not NBA, the best player he plays all season might not be as good as the absolute worst Kobe does.
2. LeBron is still a great player, but Kobe right now? i dont think so fellas
3. Most of you have never even seen LeBron play-so you have no information to speak about him w/o relying on what other reporters tell you

i am not trying to bash either player-i hate kobe--i like lebron--but its unfair to both to compare them--its like comparing Kobe to MJ--its not even close or fair


----------



## "Matt!"

> Originally posted by <b>lakers1</b>!
> yo be quiet man im sorry im not like u but i have a life not reading anything u can about the nba i bet ill still school u on the court


Ha...he mentioned school.

Define irony.


----------



## remy23

*uh...*

Let me be the first person to say LeBron is not a Kobe or T-Mac clone. LeBron is more unselfish than Kobe was at that age. When you watch enough of LeBron's games, you see he has great point guard skills. If anything, LeBron is closer to a Penny Hardaway/Grant Hill mixture than a Kobe/T-Mac combination. And by the way, LeBron's jumper is good for his age. I heard a guy say LeBron is like Hill with a better jumper.


----------



## tenkev

:topic: I know I'm jumping into to this kinda late but someone said that Kobe Bryant's SAT was 1080 and that was really good. Well, maybe it was really good, but only for an NBA player. 1080 would not get you into havard or any ivy league school. :topic:


----------



## Petey

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> *David Robinson scored a 1320(high) and
> 
> Kobe scored a 1080 (Very Good!)*


Actually Robinson's score was a pure 1320... I took the SATS one year before Kobe did, and the year following mine, the board raised the average score by 200 points. The national average leading up to that year in the past decade came out to around roughly 800, while alot of people viewed the average at 1000, so the SAT board did everyone (lower scorers) a favor (as higher scores didn't get the full 200 added to their score). If Kobe honestly scored that on his SATs I scored 500 points higher if they still used the old system... 

-Petey


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>lakers1</b>!
> yo be quiet man im sorry im not like u but i have a life not reading anything u can about the nba i bet ill still school u on the court


-

you really have no shame. are you drunk when you write this kind of thing? are these actually the thoughts going through your head or are you just trolling.
are you actually any good at basketball? either way i can't believe that you actually typed the words saying that you could school someone you don't even know. 
either way, i think that kobe and mcgrady comparisons are natural for lebron. he probably deserves them, sure he's hyped more than anything...but don't you think there's a reason for it? the best player i've seen lebron up against is carmelo anthony, another amazing basketball talent. they both had amazing games but didn't defend each other most of the time. lebron looked amazing, you should really download the movie. some amazing passes, beautiful fadeaways from everywhere, big blocks, and big dunks. 
there's nothing wrong with making comparisons to basketball greats. it's not heresy to say think that players can be better than mj, kobe, anyone. they don't come around too often but it's inevitable that better players will come along. it's just a little kind of a prediction, that's what a lot of this discussion really is.
lebron has the tools to come into the nba and play, his first season. on the right team, he will demand serious minutes. don't sell james short, i'm not saying that he'll come in blow everyone away, but he'll be good.


----------



## BEEZ

Obviously this guy Laker1 is a young guy, that just knows a little bit about Kobe and basketball. So fellas dont rip into him to bad


----------



## IV

I've heard alot about Lebron. We'll just have to wait and see if he is everything he's made out to be.


----------



## trick

<strike>wtf? </strike>(No masking of profanity, please)how can lakers1 change this whole topic into Vince being a spotlight hogger?    

anyways, if anything Vince should be considered to be an ideal player in that day. he actually got his diploma. how many playerd would say they'd have done that in this era of basketball?

he told his mom that he'd finsih uni and get his diploma which he did. he did it for his mom, not just for himself.


----------



## RollWithEm

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> Also, Kobe *did not *have a perfect score on his sats(nobody has to date) -
> 
> *David Robinson scored a 1320(high) and
> 
> Kobe scored a 1080 (Very Good!)*


First, you mean that nobody to play basketball has had a perfect on the SAT's to date, right? I have a friend who is currently attending Cal Tech that got 1600 in 1999.

Second, David Robinson is a very smart person, a very good community leader, and a great all-around human being.

Third, where did you get these scores?


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>RollWithEm</b>!
> 
> First, you mean that nobody to play basketball has had a perfect on the SAT's to date, right? I have a friend who is currently attending Cal Tech that got 1600 in 1999.


he means there is no one in the NBA has got a perfect score on the SAT's


----------



## "Matt!"

> Originally posted by <b>RollWithEm</b>!
> 
> First, you mean that nobody to play basketball has had a perfect on the SAT's to date, right? I have a friend who is currently attending Cal Tech that got 1600 in 1999.


I'm sure that Harvard, Princeton, Cornell, Yale, Brown, etc. all have more than one person who got a 1600 on his SAT's. However, odds are your friend at Cal Tech isn't gonna be in the NBA.

I would be suprised to know what Bill Bradley got on his SAT's. There's an intelligent human being!


----------



## jazzy1

Wow the Haters dislike Kobe so much now they questioning the validity of his Sat's I love Kobe but this is irrelevant. 


CARON BUTLER You're wrong about the Kobe/MJ comparison that is valid Kobe has accomplished many things that MJ has and some he hasn't , Lebron has accomplished nothing that Kobe has so its not valid but the MJ/Kobe comparison is not only valid but not that far fetched thats why everyone does it. 

I saw Lebron play live last year against Oak Hill and he's a great highschool player with great pro potential, hopefully he doesn't have to go through the Kobe comparisons thing like Kobe does with MJ, James game is very similar to Kobe's with maybe a little more range on his shot, and he's bigger than Kobe was in highschool, but its way too early to know his impact against pro competiton, and know if he has the mental makeup to suceed at the NBA level.


----------



## hOnDo

Guys,

I seriously cant believe that people are saying James is as good as Kobe right now. Kobe is a much more mature player and I believe he was better skills.

If you put Lebron on the LAkers, there is no way that you win 3 in a row, no way.

Kobe has a much better game than Lebron.

C'mon guys....


----------



## Hitman

*If Kobe and MJ both went for 50 tonight, would basketballboard.net break a record?*

If Kobe and MJ both went for 50 tonight, would basketballboard.net break an all time attendance record?


----------



## Shadows

I voted for all 3, for some reason the poll is messed up.

And the real answer to your question * NO*

If one of them went for 100, now that's a diffrent story


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>hOnDo</b>!
> Guys,
> 
> I seriously cant believe that people are saying James is as good as Kobe right now. Kobe is a much more mature player and I believe he was better skills.
> 
> If you put Lebron on the LAkers, there is no way that you win 3 in a row, no way.
> 
> Kobe has a much better game than Lebron.
> 
> C'mon guys....


this is true but its all about hype and hype goes along way with fans.


----------



## <<<D>>>

Bron is a skilled and talented player that will make an impact in the NBA and for many years. I don't care how talented a player is but keep in mind, they will always have to adjust their game and style to the next level. The intensity will be different, Bron will notice how systems are to be played on both ends, he'll notice how the defenders he'll be facing will be much tougher to get around....etc.

For a player that has yet to step foot into the league to prove himself and to be compared to one of the NBA'S top players in Kobe is just ridiculous!! Kobe is all over and way ahead of this. He's accomplished goals and worked hard on his game and physically to get to where he's at. He's only getting better, while Bron is just getting started. Theirs no doubt their will be comparisons, we'll just have to wait and see how Bron pan's in the big league :yes:


----------



## jazzy1

Great points D


----------



## Scuall

Bill Willoughby. Felipe Lopez. Schea Cotton.

What do these three have in common? Legendary high school players, all guaranteed to be the "next thing." Unless you're an ardent fan of basketball, Felipe Lopez is probably the only recognizable name on the list. Felipe graced the cover of SI prior to his frosh year at St. John's. While a solid player, he will never be mentioned in the same breath as Jordan, Bryant, et. al. as he was during his career in high school. Cotton also had a famous article in SI written about his skills during his high school career.

Dominating the high school game as a supremely talented 6'8" player is one thing. Doing that on the next level(s) against grown men is another.


----------



## onetwo88

Lebron james does not = kobe

lebron james = a high school kid who hasn't proven anything yet other than that he can dominate in high school!

ALthough I guess those illegal workouts he had with the cavs resulted in everyone saying he's nba ready, but still


----------



## compsciguy78

*Lebron James is overhyped and underskilled*

I can't believe people that say Lebron is like Magic. Big deal if he can throw a one handed pass to an open big man under the basket with no one playing defense. The guy is an athlete and a good person, but the comparisons are premature and way off. Everyone on the telecast was kissing his butt. I saw players on that floor that were just as skilled or even more so than Lebron. He is going to be good, but he is no Magic. He has size and athleticism but his jump shot was horrible. It was plain disgusting. He seems like he gets too hyped by hitting an easy jump shot or doing something he should do. The guy is a man among boys out on the court so if he is that good he should be doing anything he wants out there. I think he will be a good NBA player but at this point I don't see a star. I would put him on the level of potential all star in the NBA a few years down the road. Stop the Magic and Air Jordan comparisons. They don't do him or the great ones justice. Lebron is overhyped. I wish they would show people who have good skills instead of people who have hardly any skills and a lot of potential. He could hardly dribble a basketball.


Peace out


----------



## HAWK23

> I saw players on that floor that were just as skilled or even more so than Lebron.


LIKE WHO??? And don't name anyone from LeBron's team because HE makes the whole team better..


----------



## Alley-oop

They say LeBron James will be a distributor as a rookie, a go-to guy by year 2 and on a Wheaties box by year 3.


----------



## OZZY

Hey, all I have to say is come back and post this in 3-4 years. Then we will talk.


----------



## compsciguy78

I can't remember their names because I didn't really care at the time, I was there to watch Lebron James. It is not that hard a statement to validate. Look at his jump shot and how he dribbles the ball and tell me that their aren't more skilled players in that game.


----------



## HAWK23

> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> I can't remember their names because I didn't really care at the time, I was there to watch Lebron James. It is not that hard a statement to validate. Look at his jump shot and how he dribbles the ball and tell me that their aren't more skilled players in that game.


You WERE watching #23 on the light colored jersey team right?


----------



## compsciguy78

Yeah, I watched him play. He's only 17 so he has a long way to go, so I will never say that he doesn't have a chance to be great. The truth is that he can hardly shoot a basketball and he can't dribble very good.


----------



## The OUTLAW

> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> I can't remember their names because I didn't really care at the time, I was there to watch Lebron James. It is not that hard a statement to validate. Look at his jump shot and how he dribbles the ball and tell me that their aren't more skilled players in that game.


I don't think that there were better players. This is a very bold statement because even others that may have thought that he wasn't everything they wanted have not said he wasn't the best in the game. The beginning of the second half I was thinking that the only reason that the game was close was because they weren't running enough of the offense through James. Once they started doing this, they started to lengthen the lead. I think he will be a player provided he hits his jump shot more consistently (although I think he migh just have been nervous at the beginning of the game). I tend to think that scorers are everywhere but if you can find a guy that distributes the ball and makes his teammates better, that guy is the one that you want.


----------



## rynobot

His J may not be great but it still isn't that bad, and he has a great handle.

I'm done with this thread!


----------



## HAWK23

> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> Yeah, I watched him play. He's only 17 so he has a long way to go, so I will never say that he doesn't have a chance to be great. The truth is that he can hardly shoot a basketball and he can't dribble very good.


He didn't dribble well?? He did a crossover 3 point jumper... did you watch the WHOLE game? Or did you only watch the first 5 minutes? Because he did look bad in the first 5 minutes- but he was just nervous, he was great after that...


----------



## OZZY

*Please* do not extend this post that far, it is obvious he just wants to create a stur and get a long post. Now if he was bashing LeBron all along then fine. But it seems to me he just started because everyone else likes him, so to get a reaction out of people he started this post. Just don't let this get over 2 pages...


----------



## The OUTLAW

It does kinda explain the limited number of posts and that they have all been in this thread.


----------



## compsciguy78

I'm not even bashing Lebron. I think he will be a good NBA player. He can hardly dribble compared to a point guard. It's like saying Shaq can dribble. Shaq can dribble when compared with other 7 footers , and I think Lebron might dribble decent from someone his size, but when you are comparing him to Magic, then you open him up for a lot of criticism. I do believe Lebron will be good, but like my original post said...he is overhyped and underskilled. Period.


----------



## Vinsanity

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> LIKE WHO??? And don't name anyone from LeBron's team because HE makes the whole team better..


Stanley.....he played better than James, oh **** he is from James' team


----------



## compsciguy78

With that being said I wish Lebron the best and I hope someone that knows him points him to this so he can feed off of this and realize his weaknesses. Then at that point he will become better then he imagined.


----------



## OZZY

Oh yeah, and he is 17 years old, and your judging him like he is 24, end of my involvement...:wave:


----------



## hunterb14

> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> I'm not even bashing Lebron. I think he will be a good NBA player. He can hardly dribble compared to a point guard. It's like saying Shaq can dribble. Shaq can dribble when compared with other 7 footers , and I think Lebron might dribble decent from someone his size, but when you are comparing him to Magic, then you open him up for a lot of criticism. I do believe Lebron will be good, but like my original post said...he is overhyped and underskilled. Period.


Lebrom is probavly the bes player to enter the draft since Duncan. He has superstardom written all over him. HE is a complete player,. He is one of those players who makes the people around him better. He has great handles I think, but of courxse he isnt goign to have a point guards handles because he isnt one. He still has thoguh some of the best handles I have seen.

HE has been hyped up alot, but if the game on ESPN2 showed me anything, it is that he can play live in front of the nation, against the number one team in the nation and completly dominate.

I see nothing keping him from stardom but himself


----------



## JNice

*Re: Lebron James is overhyped and underskilled*



> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> I can't believe people that say Lebron is like Magic. Big deal if he can throw a one handed pass to an open big man under the basket with no one playing defense. The guy is an athlete and a good person, but the comparisons are premature and way off. Everyone on the telecast was kissing his butt. I saw players on that floor that were just as skilled or even more so than Lebron. He is going to be good, but he is no Magic. He has size and athleticism but his jump shot was horrible. It was plain disgusting. He seems like he gets too hyped by hitting an easy jump shot or doing something he should do. The guy is a man among boys out on the court so if he is that good he should be doing anything he wants out there. I think he will be a good NBA player but at this point I don't see a star. I would put him on the level of potential all star in the NBA a few years down the road. Stop the Magic and Air Jordan comparisons. They don't do him or the great ones justice. Lebron is overhyped. I wish they would show people who have good skills instead of people who have hardly any skills and a lot of potential. He could hardly dribble a basketball.
> 
> 
> Peace out



You are a little off. My point is, some of the best minds in teh game of basketball, guys who have been around decades and watched guys like Dr J, MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem etc come out of HS, all these guys are saying LeBron is a can't miss.

And almost all of these guys have absolutely nothing to gain by hyping him. To me, those guy's opinions mean a lot more to me than yours.


----------



## Petey

Moved to NBA Draft forum.

-Petey


----------



## compsciguy78

Good point but ask yourself this... Are these the same guys that said to pass up on Michael Jordan and take Sam Bowie?

Anyone can be wrong. Believe what you see and not what someone else tries to cram down your throat(especially Dick vitale).

Here are some other supposed cant miss players

1. SAM BOWIE (1984 - 2nd Portland) (Michael who??????)
2. DENNIS HOPSON (1987 - 3rd New Jersey) 
3. PERVIS ELLISON (1989 - 1st Sacramento) --------#1 pick
4. MEL TURPIN (1984 - 6th Washington) 
5. BENOIT BENJAMIN (1985 - 3rd Clippers)
6. CHRIS WASHBURN (1986 - 3rd Golden State) 7. RALPH SAMPSON (1983 - 1st Philadelphia) 
8. JOE B. CARROLL (1980 - 1st Golden State) ----(who??)---#1 pick
9. BILL GARNETT (1982 - 4th Dallas) 
10. STACEY KING (1989 - 6th Chicago) 

1. BOBBY HURLEY (1993 - 7th Sacramento) 
2. MARK MACON (1991 - 8th Denver) 
3. BO KIMBLE (1990 - 8th LA Clippers) 
4. SHAWN RESPERT (1995 - 8th Portland) 
5. ED O'BANNON (1995 - 9th New Jersey) 
6. DOUG SMITH (1991 - 6th Dallas) 
7. SHAWN BRADLEY (1993 - 2nd Philadelphia) 
8. JOE SMITH (1995 - 1st Golden State) ------------------#1 pick
9. ADONAL FOYLE (1997 - 8th Golden State)
10. HAROLD MINER (1992 - 12th Miami) ------(baby Jordan..I used to like this guy too)



Trying to get people to think and not get enveloped by bs.


----------



## rynobot

There haven't been many can't miss prospects latley that did bad. Curry hasn't looked great but he can still develop, and Miles still hasn't developed a jumpshot (LeBron's is already better than Miles' Jumopshot)


----------



## TheS100

> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> Yeah, I watched him play. He's only 17 so he has a long way to go, so I will never say that he doesn't have a chance to be great. The truth is that he can hardly shoot a basketball and he can't dribble very good.


That's rediculous. How many games have you seen him play? I've seen Reggie Miller shoot 0-6 from the arc in some games, so I guess that means he can't shoot. Heck, in high school I had some games where I would go 2-9 or 1-6 from three but overall I was pretty good and shot over 50% my senior year. It is *one* game. You can't base his J off of one game.


----------



## compsciguy78

This is in response to S100 post...his form is not good on his jump shot. Its not the fact that he missed, its the fact that his form looked bad when he missed them and made them. He will improve, but the fact is he is overhyped and underskilled. I agree with you that players have bad games and Lebron's jump shot looks better than some players in the NBA, but did those players with equivalent jump shots ever get this type of hype? Don't believe what Dick vitale tells you is good. Thats how he makes his living is hyping everything. Its funny because Dookie Vitale talks about leeches on Lebron and how they need to stay away from Lebron, but he really is talking about himself and him getting a better resume and more exposure off of Lebron.



To everyone:
Believe what you see not media hype


Peace out


----------



## seanpatin

LeBron will never be a HOFer.... guaranteed... he may do pretty good but never great....


----------



## Matthew Maurer

I do agree with many of you that Lebron will be a impact player the thing is <B>IN TIME.</B> He is not gonna come into the league and drop 30 plus a points a game. He does have some holes in his game. Let use all not forget the greatest high school to the pros player is <B>MOSES MALONE.</B> All I am saying is understand what you see with Lebron now isn't what he will be doing in the pros next year in 3 years maybe next year doubtful.

Matthew Maurer
NBA Draft.net


----------



## rynobot

I understand, but I think he could get 15,5,5 his rookie year and for me that would be amazing.


----------



## Matthew Maurer

I agree Rynobot if he did that it would be amazing but the last HSer to drop double digits is Moses Malone. But here's my next question what if he drop 35-38 % field goal shooting and the team only has 8 wins is that still amazing ??

Matthew Maurer
NBA Draft.net


----------



## rynobot

He needs the 40% FG% and he needs to make his team better. I don't know any team where he wouldn't.


----------



## rynobot

Matthew, check your PM please I have a question for you.


----------



## Amareca

> Originally posted by <b>Matthew Maurer</b>!
> I agree Rynobot if he did that it would be amazing but the last HSer to drop double digits is Moses Malone. But here's my next question what if he drop 35-38 % field goal shooting and the team only has 8 wins is that still amazing ??
> 
> Matthew Maurer
> NBA Draft.net



Doh! Kevin Garnett 10.4ppg as a rookie?

That's not double digits?

Amare Stoudemire 10.7ppg? Close to a double-double?


----------



## TheS100

compsciguy78, good reply. Too many people take things too seriously on this board.


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> This is in response to S100 post...his form is not good on his jump shot. Its not the fact that he missed, its the fact that his form looked bad when he missed them and made them. He will improve, but the fact is he is overhyped and underskilled. I agree with you that players have bad games and Lebron's jump shot looks better than some players in the NBA, but did those players with equivalent jump shots ever get this type of hype? Don't believe what Dick vitale tells you is good. Thats how he makes his living is hyping everything. Its funny because Dookie Vitale talks about leeches on Lebron and how they need to stay away from Lebron, but he really is talking about himself and him getting a better resume and more exposure off of Lebron.
> 
> 
> 
> To everyone:
> Believe what you see not media hype
> 
> 
> Peace out


Therefore before you speak know what you are talking about. You saw one game and you know the holes in it????


----------



## Matthew Maurer

Your right I stand corrected Garnett did drop 10.4 ppg but if you truly did your math you would know that was only after they decided to give up on the season and started to give him heavy during the last 24 -29 games but you are right I was wrong It happens to the best of us. And man please Amare let's wait until the season is over before we say that okay. Last thing Moses Malone averaged 18.8 ppg and 14.6 in his rookie season so let's not call 10.4 ppg a hugely monemental thing!!


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## compsciguy78

This is a response to the BEEZ post...<strike>..wtf? </strike>


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## compsciguy78

In response to S100 post. Thanks for not taking my post personally. I agree with you that a lot of people get angry when you don't agree with them. I started this thread because I felt another opinion had to be expressed about Lebron. I dont hate Lebron by any means. I know that you cannot judge someone on one game, but the things that remain true are fundamentals. You can pick out a fundamentally sound person in one game. 

I might eat my words when they play some more of his high school games on national tv, but I think I will see the same thing. The one thing I didn't get to see much of was his defense. I would like to see that exposed in a closer scoring game.

Peace out


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## W1Z0C0Z

I taped the LeBron James game and have watched it over a few times. His shot was a little disappointing in the first half, but it could have just been an off day and if it wasn't he's only 17 and will have time to gain a shot.

I was also a little disappointed in his dribbiling, but he did have some nice plays. That crossover step back 3 was very nice and I don't think he turned the ball over. I just expected to see Iverson type crosses b/c of the hype but he's 6'7 so it's understandable. He definetly still has handle just not what I expected.

Lastly when I saw him play, Magic immedietly came to mind. I definetly see that comparision. The Jordan comparision is coming from him being so dominate and being able to score but Magic scored also. I say just keep the Magic comparision. He scores, dishes and bounds like Magic. We didn't see the great moves to the basket (probably because of the competition) that Jordan is known for or the famous Jordan defense (also probably because of the competition.) So I'm just saying let's use the Magic comparision instead of the Jordan one for now.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> This is a response to the BEEZ post...<strike>..wtf? </strike>


What do you mean!!!!!!!!! You saw just 1 game and you know all of the holes in his game??????


----------



## THA DOCTA

*LeBron/Kobe/Jordan*

LeBron is goin to be good, but i dont see him havin a big impact until his 3rd year. one reason hes accelin in hs bb is becuase hes more athletic than most guys, but if you watch him play he cant shoot. he cant even shoot the hs three!! hes goin to be on a team like tha Cavs or Toronto and hell average 10 ppg. kobe right now is playin betta than mike and kobe in this point of career is better than mike and will be better than lebron ever will be. because kobe already has 3 rings and has that experience jordan never had and kobe is only 24. so i think it is unfair to compare lebron to kobe or mike, because lebron will fall under pressure like kwame


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## dr-dru

i don't know what you've been watching, but lebron can shoot. what lebron also has right now that is amazing, is the ability to respond. it seems whenever scandals are about, lebron plays amazing. and in the season finale, he got blocked, and the fans chanted overrated. next play, lebron steals and goes for the tomahawk dunk.


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## Bball_Doctor

Lebron can shoot but his shot will not be consistent in the NBA if he doesn't improve. I think Lebron is working hard to improve his shot, it would be sad to see another Wagner. Kobe is not playing better than MJ at this age. MJ averaged 37.1 ppg at 24!!!!!! People who say Kobe is better at this age obviously have not seen MJ at that age. I made a comparison tread earlier but if someone was to ask me who was better at 24? I would say MJ hands down. Kobe is not close, TMac is not even in the same realm. Shows just how great MJ was (his true greatness didn't come until early 90's when he developed into the most complete offensive and defensive package to ever play) because Kobe and TMac are arguably the best players in the league today and they are not even close.


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## allenive21

LeBron and Kobe will never be considered as good as Jordan. Period.


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## rynobot

I guess you have crystal ball that can see 20 years into the future just like Tom


----------



## allenive21

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> I guess you have crystal ball that can see 20 years into the future just like Tom


Yes I do and it's saying only if LeBron would have gone to college...


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## rynobot

> Originally posted by <b>allenive21</b>!
> 
> Yes I do and it's saying only if LeBron would have gone to college...


What can he improve by playing college ball that he can't do in the pros?

Did you know you improve by: 
practing hours each day 
playing against the best competiton
[/list=a]


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## grizzoistight

*watchin those higlites of lebron*

im sold man!! 
that kid has all the moves hes a blend of tmac and kobe.. 
he can pull up dribbling with his right or left
he has a smooth fadeaway and sick handles
this kid will be a better 3 pt shooter than kobe or tmac


----------



## allenive21

*Re: watchin those higlites of lebron*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> im sold man!!
> that kid has all the moves hes a blend of tmac and kobe..
> he can pull up dribbling with his right or left
> he has a smooth fadeaway and sick handles
> this kid will be a better 3 pt shooter than kobe or tmac


Don't count your chickens before the eggs hatch.


----------



## local_sportsfan

I guess you guys are too young to remember this, but MJ (at 24) was like Allen Iverson plus 7 inches. And he didn't shoot under 40%. He was averaging 35 ppg on 55% shooting which is freakish.


----------



## golgor

MJ 37+ per game at 54% against real competition

Kobe 27+ at 45% against cretins who were humiliated by a bunch of skinny white guys from Argantina, Yugoslavia and Spain.

Comparing those two is like comparing a Ferrari to a Hyundai

LeBron, who knows. I just know he can't shoot and he is only 6-5
He could be the next ( insert any overhyped guy whose name you can't remember anymore ). He will most certainly be another 6 - 5 guy shooting 40%

Then again, NBA is so weak right now anybody can do well.
Shooting 40% was enough to get AI and MVP not so long ago.

Look at Amare, guy is a total retard basketballwise. Has one move, can't shoot, can't pass, can't do anything and he's doing well. He should have gone to college and appreciate it, because 20 years ago he wouldn't have even been recruited by any decent colleges.


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## dr-dru

golgor..first the top 10 overrated players topic..which is just wrong any which way you look at it, and than you say lebron is 6-5. where do you watch basketball? mars? lebron is 6-8 235lbs. have you ever seen him play? if you have you would notice the kid is huge.


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## golgor

If I were on mars or in NBA marketing Land then he would be 6-8 and 235lbs

Guy is 6-5 and 210.

I know from my own experience with Basketball that the younger they are the more they add.

NBA players are all listed at at least 1 - 2 inches taller than they really are.

College 1-3 inches

High School 2-4 inches. I attended several tournaments where high school kids under 6 feet were listed as 6-3 or 6-4 in tournament press kits that were handed out.
( just like 150 pound high school football players are listed at 185 or something ridiculous like that )

I saw LeBron playing against some pretty fat ( obese ) 6 foot guys who were listed at 6-4.

If I am mistaken in any way he is at most 6-6 and all that crap about how he stopped measuring himself after 6-6 is just proof of all this nonsense. He knows exactly how tall he is and he will never be 6-8 even with sneakers stuffed with his paychecks on.

Next to a real 6-8 NBA player he looks small, trust me.

I'm not making any money on LeBron so I have no reason to lie.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>golgor</b>!
> If I were on mars or in NBA marketing Land then he would be 6-8 and 235lbs
> 
> Guy is 6-5 and 210.
> 
> I know from my own experience with Basketball that the younger they are the more they add.
> 
> NBA players are all listed at at least 1 - 2 inches taller than they really are.
> 
> College 1-3 inches
> 
> High School 2-4 inches. I attended several tournaments where high school kids under 6 feet were listed as 6-3 or 6-4 in tournament press kits that were handed out.
> ( just like 150 pound high school football players are listed at 185 or something ridiculous like that )
> 
> I saw LeBron playing against some pretty fat ( obese ) 6 foot guys who were listed at 6-4.
> 
> If I am mistaken in any way he is at most 6-6 and all that crap about how he stopped measuring himself after 6-6 is just proof of all this nonsense. He knows exactly how tall he is and he will never be 6-8 even with sneakers stuffed with his paychecks on.
> 
> Next to a real 6-8 NBA player he looks small, trust me.
> 
> I'm not making any money on LeBron so I have no reason to lie.


As much as I dislike you I have to agree. I seriously doubt Lebron is 6-8 6-9 and 240. I think he's 6-6 6-7 and 220 max. I've seen him listed at 6-7 215 on one site and I usually go with the shortest heights with HS players. Did he grow? Maybe but dwarfing your HS teammates doesn't anything.


----------



## allenive21

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> As much as I dislike you I have to agree. I seriously doubt Lebron is 6-8 6-9 and 240. I think he's 6-6 6-7 and 220 max. I've seen him listed at 6-7 215 on one site and I usually go with the shortest heights with HS players. Did he grow? Maybe but dwarfing your HS teammates doesn't anything.


I've always question his weight because his arms don't look that muscular. Height can always be questioned, especially in high school since I was listed at 5'9 last year and I was taller than a guy listed at 6'2.


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## digital jello

LeBron will be good, but soon all of these posts will be about Carmelo Anthony.

Anthony should be (but won't ) the first pick in the draft. He won't because he is nowhere near as hyped as 'Bron. I think Anthony will become a better player than LeBron James in the NBA.


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## dr-dru

http://www.cleveland.com/hssports_g...ow.cgi/cleve/slide_show.ata?index=8&g_id=1642

as i said..he's huge.


----------



## allenive21

> Originally posted by <b>dr-dru</b>!
> http://www.cleveland.com/hssports_g...ow.cgi/cleve/slide_show.ata?index=8&g_id=1642
> 
> as i said..he's huge.


Of course he is huge sitting next to a bunch of 6 ft. guys and he's the only one not slouching.


----------



## dr-dru

what i like about lebron is how progressed he is in some aspects of his game. for example kobe is still working on his fadeaway. mj sure didn't have his fadeaway in college, and lebron already has a nice fadeaway. he hits them couple times of games on baseline from mid-range and farther. though he doesn't really need it, against yao ming or a tall center its nice to have.


----------



## Yyzlin

Anfernee Hardaway was also supposed to be the next Jordon. Look what happened to him. So was Vince Carter. Look what happened to him. Being placed with the Next Jordan tag isn't always a good thing.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>golgor</b>!
> MJ 37+ per game at 54% against real competition
> 
> Kobe 27+ at 45% against cretins who were humiliated by a bunch of skinny white guys from Argantina, Yugoslavia and Spain.
> 
> Comparing those two is like comparing a Ferrari to a Hyundai
> 
> LeBron, who knows. I just know he can't shoot and he is only 6-5
> He could be the next ( insert any overhyped guy whose name you can't remember anymore ). He will most certainly be another 6 - 5 guy shooting 40%
> 
> Then again, NBA is so weak right now anybody can do well.
> Shooting 40% was enough to get AI and MVP not so long ago.
> 
> Look at Amare, guy is a total retard basketballwise. Has one move, can't shoot, can't pass, can't do anything and he's doing well. He should have gone to college and appreciate it, because 20 years ago he wouldn't have even been recruited by any decent colleges.


golgor, i don't know what you're talking about. wing defenders and team defenses as a whole are much much better that the era you are referring to. take a look at the scores that were being posted during that time. you're going to tell me that differential arises because today's nba players can't shoot or score? please.

amare wouldn't have been recruited by decent colleges? why the hell not? perhaps because he would have gone straight to the nba even then but otherwise i don't see where you're coming from. you compare him against the talented big men of today but he has all the attributes needed to compete in any era. even if he did not improve the areas of his game that he needs to work on he would be a valuable player on many nba teams.

stop living in the past and try to appreciate the players of today.


----------



## BEEZ

Firstly I dont know what you guys watch but my best way to put it is this. During the offseason when he played with the Cavs and they had a picture in the herald or whatever newpaper it is there and hes standing next to Jumaine Jones he was taller than him then. and Jumaine is 6'7 1/2 legit. He is not 210 and allenive his arms are very muscular. All he does is workout. Allenive21 you seem to have something against him, because you never have anything good to say about Lebron James. Every post you make on him you knock him. Why????


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## grizzoistight

*after tmacs weak perf*

this is the night kobe will take the lead in the scoring race...


----------



## Xantos

*For the young fellas*

Kobe and James, have a HUGE mountian to climb! This is just the tip of the iceburg for MJ: You can find this @ ESPN.com

40 
One more time. Feb. 9, 2003. Mike hits a high-arcing fadeway along the baseline in the first overtime of the All-Star Game in what looks like the dramatic game-winner. But a foul call with a second left down the other end sends the game to a second overtime. But it was a heck of a national farewell shot.

39. Small is beautiful. Dec. 12, 1987. The legend grows as Jordan beats the Rockets with 44 points, blocks shots by Hakeem Olajuwon and Ralph Sampson and ends the game with more blocks than the two 7-footers combined. Whatever is needed.

38. Ready for the world. July 1992. The Dream Team is getting ready for the Olympics and lazily loses by six in a scrimmage to a team of college all-stars and future NBA pros, like Chris Webber, Penny Hardaway, Allan Houston and Jamal Mashburn. Jordan tells Kansas and college coach Roy Williams this will change and the next day in a 38-minute game the Dream Team wins by 56.

37. He can still Do It. Dec. 29, 2001. Jordan scores 51 points for the Wizards against Charlotte with a Washington franchise-record 24 points in the first quarter and 34 in the half.

36. Cleveland again. Jan. 31, 2002. Put five guys on him. Jordan beats Cleveland again with a buzzer-beater. This time he's looking at 39 -- years, not points -- as a Wizard. This comes a week after he scored 40 in the first of two consecutive victories over the Cavs.

35. Cleveland must have done something. May 17, 1993. It was perhaps inevitable, but Jordan finishes the Cavs with a buzzer-beater (a fadeaway jumper) to close them out of the conference semifinals and send the Bulls to the sweep.

34. Refuse to lose. May 10, 1991. The Bulls go on to lose this playoff game to the 76ers by two points after being ahead two games to none. The significance is Jordan will never let the Bulls quit. They're down by 24, but Mike insists they can win the game. They end up losing by two as he gets 46 and the 76ers are beaten even with a win. The Bulls win the next two before going on to sweep the Pistons, winning 10 of 11 from that point on to win their first NBA title.

33. Ricky's big mistake. May 14, 1989. The big underdog Bulls, coming off Jordan's winning shot in Cleveland, are up 2-1 in the conference semifinals playing the second of a back-to-back at home. Jordan has a groin injury and is getting treatment when he hears Knicks coach Rick Pitino on television suggesting Jordan is faking. A no-no. Jordan goes for 47 points and 11 rebounds, with 18 points in the fourth quarter, to shut up Pitino, the first of Knicks coaches to suggest Jordan is conning people.

32. So now they know. April 16, 1987. Jordan wraps up the most impressive offensive regular season since Wilt Chamberlain with his second 61-point game in a little more than a month, this time against the Hawks and Dominique Wilkins. It occurred in a period in which Jordan also had three other games of at least 50 points.

31. Lights out, New York. June 2, 1993. The Knicks are on life support, though fighting as Charles Smith desperately tries to put the ball in the basket to win the game. He is denied several times by a group, including Jordan in a game Jordan gets a triple-double with 29 points, 10 rebounds and 14 assists.


30 
Bye, bye New York. May 31, 1993. The Bulls' run appears stopped at two when the Knicks go up 2-0 in the conference finals on John Starks' thrilling dunk down then stretch. The Bulls go home and even the series at 2-2 as Mike hits for 54 and the Bulls end up winning four straight.

29. Hello, Shaq. Jan. 16, 1993. Shaquille O'Neal is the big thing in the NBA that season, so in Orlando's first visit to Chicago, Mike goes for 64 points, his second most ever, while squeezing off a personal-most 49 shots in an overtime game. Turn the camera toward Mike.


A rare sight in the '93 Finals: Michael Jordan, left, watching Dan Majerle score. 
28. Charles ain't getting no title. June 16, 1993. The Bulls had let the Suns back in the 1993 NBA Finals after winning the first two in Phoenix with a loss at home. In Game 4, Jordan scored 55 points, including 33 in the first half and 16 in a row at one point, for the 3-1 edge. Jordan delighted in lighting up Dan Majerle, a favorite of nemesis Jerry Krause, who always bragged about Majerle's great defense. Jordan set a Finals record averaging 41 points and had four straight games of at least 40 points.

27. Hello, NBA 2. Nov. 13, 1985. In just his ninth NBA game, Jordan scored 45 points and had 10 rebounds in a win over the San Antonio Spurs to let the NBA know the hype is for real. Chicago hadn't quite caught on as this was Jordan's third home game and announced attendance at the last two games were less than 10,000.

26. Hello, NBA 1. Oct. 29, 1984. In his third NBA game, Jordan beats Milwaukee's conference finals team with 22 points in the fourth quarter and goes on in his rookie season to lead the team in scoring (28.2), rebounding (6.5) and assists (5.9).

25. He hates Cleveland. May 1, 1988. Jordan hits the Cavaliers for 55 points in Game 2 of the first-round playoff series after carrying the Bulls to a Game 1 victory with 50 points for back-to-back, 50-point postseason games. This time, it's Ron Harper on defense, not Craig Ehlo, in Game 2.

24. The guarantee. May 21, 1989. The Pistons knocked out the Bulls in the playoffs the previous season and are headed to their first NBA title. They're home to open the conference finals when Jordan says the Bulls, the sixth-place finisher in the East, will win Game 1. They do and he gets 46 in Game 3 for a 2-1 lead before the Pistons take the series.

23. He is rising. April 3, 1988. With the Bulls coming back from a Western Conference road trip and finishing in Detroit on Easter Sunday and national TV, Mike hit the Finals-bound Pistons for 59 points in a two-point win.

22. The duel. March 4, 1987. Isiah Thomas and Jordan have a history, not only from their Chicago connections and rivalry but Jordan's belief Thomas tried to embarrass him in his first All-Star game. Jordan goes for 61 in an overtime win in Detroit to hold off Thomas' 31 points and 18 assists. Thomas rims-out a 3-pointer that would have sent the game into double overtime.

21. The Shootout. April 16, 1987. The Bulls lose, but Jordan and Dominique Wilkins, the other prime scorer and dunker of the era, engage in another memorable duel with Jordan getting 61. Earlier in the season, Jordan goes for 41, but Wilkins gets 57, and Jordan doesn't forget.


Michael Jordan's popularity took off after winning a second straight dunk title in 1988. 

20 
The coronation. Feb. 7, 1988. Jordan won the slam dunk contest on Saturday with the Dr. J takeoff from the free-throw line and then scored 40 points, including 16 in the last six minutes, to carry the East to victory.

19. The tribute. June 16, 1996. The Bulls wrap up title No. 4 in Chicago, the first since Jordan's return to basketball and since his father was murdered in 1993. It is Father's Day and Jordan is overcome as he crumbles to the floor at the end of the game remembering his father.

18. The bookend. June 1, 1997. Mike's buzzer-beater beat the Utah Jazz in Game 1 of the 1997 Finals, but the Jazz are unaware that it would only mark one end of their two-year Finals frustration against the Bulls with Jordan concluding the two-year series with his game-winner in Game 6 in 1998.

17. The promise. Nov. 1, 1986. It's 34-year-old Doug Collins' first game as Bulls coach, and in Madison Square Garden. "Don't worry, coach," Jordan tells a sweat-soaked Collins before the game, "I won't let you lose." Jordan scores 50, his first 50-point regular-season game, in the Bulls' win.

16. The pride factor. March 20, 1993. Mike doesn't pay much attention as a kid named LaBradford Smith lights him up for 37 in a close Bulls win. Jordan is furious, even with the victory, and tells teammates he'll get 37 in the first half the next night, when in a quirk in the schedule the Bulls are playing Washington again. Jordan gets 36 in the first half and rims out a jumper as the first half ends with the Bulls blowing out the then-Bullets.

15. The dinger. July 30, 1994. Mike goes deep for the first time, going over the 370-foot sign in Hoover Metropolitan Stadium for the Birmingham Barons for his first professional baseball home run.

14. The double nickel. March 28, 1995. In his fifth game back after his 18-month hiatus from basketball to play baseball, Jordan went into Madison Square Garden, the basketball mecca, and hit Broadway for a Knicks opponent-record 55 points. Jordan fed Bill Wennington for a layup to win the game.

13. The Shot 2. May 7, 1989. Mike's double-pump 15-footer over Ehlo to steal Game 5 of the opening-round playoff series. Then tabbed as the "Team of the 90s" by Magic Johnson, the Cavs had swept the Bulls in the regular season with six consecutive victories. Jordan missed two late free throws that could have won Game 4, but scored 44 in Game 5, including the last two baskets.

12. The layup. June 5, 1991. Mike went righty to lefty for a layup to show the Lakers it's no longer winnin' time. The Bulls lost Game 1 of their first Finals ever on a Sam Perkins 3-pointer, then were on the way to blowing out the Lakers in Game 2 when Jordan defied everyone with his switch-hands layup with Perkins looming. He was just sending a message.

11. Dad's advice. May 17, 1992. The run seemed over at one when the Knicks, under new coach Pat Riley, have the Bulls reeling in the conference semifinals facing a Game 7 at home. Mike asked for advice before the game and James Jordan told him to take over, which Mike did, scoring 42 in a blowout, 29-point win.


Michael Jordan, left, collapsed in the arms of Scottie Pippen after Game 5 in the '98 Finals. 

10 
The vomit streak. June 11, 1997. It's over as Mike ate some bad pizza in Utah, felt faint, but the Jazz eventually passed out as Mike went for 38 and the Bulls took a 3-1 lead on the way to title No. 5.

9. .*Getting tired of being told he's just a scorer and Magic Johnson is a winner, Mike led the Bulls to a sweep of a Western Conference trip with 21 points, 12 rebounds and 12 assists. It is a period of 14 games in which he averaged 32.6 points, 10.3 rebounds and 11.9 assists and recorded 11 triple-doubles in the 14 games, twice also while scoring more than 40 points.* *

8. Who is this guy? July 1, 1984. Jordan led the collegiate Olympic team to its third consecutive victory over an NBA All-Star team that included Kevin McHale, Mark Aguirre and Magic Johnson. Before the U.S. got its gold medal, the coach of the Spanish team said everyone jumps and comes down but Jordan stays up.

7. Here they come. May 13, 1990. Jordan finished off his best sustained playoff stretch with his third consecutive game of at least 45 points as the Bulls go up 3-1 on the 76ers in the conference semifinals and head home to clinch the series. He averaged 43 for the series. The Bulls would go on to take the Pistons to a seventh game in the conference finals in Phil Jackson's first season and show they are getting closer. Jordan would average 37.6 points in 16 playoff games during that run.


What's Michael Jordan's greatest moment?
The pose 
God disguised as Michael Jordan 
The shrug 
The Shot 1 
The fulfillment 
Sixty-nine 



6. Sixty-nine. March 28, 1990. Mike took it out on the Cavs again, scoring his career-high 69 points in an overtime win. He also had 18 rebounds, six assists and four steals.

5. The fulfillment. June 12, 1991. Jordan is a champion, finally, at 28 and at the end of his seventh NBA season. Some said he'd never win it all, that he was too selfish, that he scored too much, that his personality was too dominating, that his teammates weren't tough or brave enough. A tearful Jordan embraced the championship trophy in his locker stall in Los Angeles with his father and best friend, James, by his side.

4. The Shot 1. March 29, 1982. Freshman Mike's 16-footer with 15 seconds left gave North Carolina the NCAA title. He had just 16 points as freshmen didn't get the ball at North Carolina, but Jordan hit three of Carolina's last five field goals on a club that also featured James Worthy and Perkins.

3. The shrug. June 3, 1992. Mike wasn't happy that there was a consensus around the NBA that Clyde Drexler should be the league's MVP. So he hit Drexler and the Blazers for six 3-pointers and 35 points in the first half of Game 1 of the NBA Finals.

2. God disguised as Michael Jordan. April 20, 1986. That was Larry Bird's observation of Jordan's 63-point playoff record game against what is still regarded as one of the best teams in NBA history. This came during the season Jordan missed most of because of a broken foot, and, little known, was his first-ever NBA game with more than 50 points.


1 
The pose. June 14, 1998. Mike hit the game-winner for title No. 6, held the pose and everyone was convinced Mike was signaling goodbye to the playing basketball world. He was 99.9 percent sure. He also had 45 points in that game and hit his shot after swiping the ball from Karl Malone*


----------



## ChiBron

Jeez, how old r u? Kobe is still 1 pt behind T-mac. He aint gonna score 100 tonight u know.

While t-mac's offense wasn't there tonight, he completely shutdown Jamal Mashburn. Hold him to just 3 fgs from the 2nd qtr till the end, including game winning blk and stls+doublepumpjam for the victory. All in the final min. of the game.


----------



## IV

SPMJ

Are you saying that Tmac came up big in the clutch? Now that's unbelievable. 

I bet his efforts were not nearly the POW of Kobe Bryant who is playing on 1 & 1/2 legs leading LA in a desperate effort to win.


----------



## ChiBron

^^ Incase u didn't know, t-mac was hobbling all game too and still somehow made all the big plays down the stretch. Assist on the big 3, blk on mash, stl and jam to seal the victory.


----------



## Chops

It's funny how Kobe limps all game long, and then when the game is on the line, he looks just fine.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> It's funny how Kobe limps all game long, and then when the game is on the line, he looks just fine.


He was limping at the end of regualtion, and in the first overtime. What's funny is how you all continue to hate while he continues to dominate


----------



## grizzoistight

*keep on hating*

haha i think kobe is about to score 50 
make excuses its 50 on 50% shooting unlike tmac

3 rings.. compared to someone whos never made it out the first round..


give the man credit


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> He was limping at the end of regualtion, and in the first overtime. What's funny is how you all continue to hate while he continues to dominate


Yeah, use the "hater" card again.  Please, it was an observation, get over it. Not everyone loves everything Kobe, and grizzo, please stop making these threads.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

you have to realize that we're not comparing accolades, we're comparing players (a very difficult thing to do) as best we can.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

*I will admit...*

I have always said that Kobe is the best talent in the NBA since 2000-01. I have said that Kobe would be the best NBA scorer when he opted to declare for the draft coming out of highschool. (He is still the best offensive player I have ever seen in HS.) Serious. But I have never admitted that Kobe has come close to Jordan's offensive dominance until now. Kobe's 6th consecutive 40 point performance and 10 straight 35+ point game has me having flashback of Jordan in the 80s. What Kobe has done is simply amazing considering this era could be the NBA's most talented era in it's history. Kobe is doing this against stronger and more athletic players...that is amazing. Although, I have little doubt Jordan could have done the same today as yesterday but maybe with 2 points less to his average...I also have no doubt that Kobe could have done this in the 80s. In fact, I believe he could have done better in the 80s. Kobe would easily be the strongest guard back then and his vertical and aerial ability would have him in the class of Jordan and Nique. Is Kobe a better scorer than Jordan? Of course not...the difference between Jordan and Kobe is consistency. Jordan did it for 10 years (10 scoring crowns) and Kobe has none. But the streak put on by Kobe this last few weeks has immortalized him in the offensive heaven that often belonged basketball gods, Wilt and Jordan. Kobe's current streak is the most impressive offensive dominance I have ever seen since Jordan's postseason performance in 1992-93.


----------



## Pinball

*Re: after tmacs weak perf*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> this is the night kobe will take the lead in the scoring race...


Seriously what is the point of this? Kobe and TMac have nothing but love for one another so why is it that the Kobe and TMac fans on this board hate each other.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> He was limping at the end of regualtion, and in the first overtime. What's funny is how you all continue to hate while he continues to dominate


How is their hate any different from how you treat TMac?


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> How is their hate any different from how you treat TMac?


Tell me what I've said about Tmac and I'll explain myself.

Just so you know, I dont hate Tmac. _(The Tmac jokes are all in good humor)_. He is a fantastic player, one of the leagues best. he's just no Kobe Bryant.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Tell me what I've said about Tmac and I'll explain myself.
> 
> Just so you know, I dont hate Tmac. _(The Tmac jokes are all in good humor)_. He is a fantastic player, one of the leagues best. he's just no Kobe Bryant.


You're always knocking him, saying he isn't a clutch player, he doesn't play hard, he's selfish...etc. I think he's a great player and deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Kobe. Do I think he's as good as Kobe? He has the potential but I don't think he's quite as good no. That doesn't mean he's a scrub or anything. I'll take Kobe because he plays for the Lakers and is a bit more aggressive and I like that in a player. Magic fans would probably choose TMac and there is nothing wrong with that.


----------



## grizzoistight

*tmac was hobbling?*

haha thats funny cuz he seemed to be fine when he did that reverse dunk at the end of the game..
tmac if i shot 9 for 24 id pretend to be hurt too
kind of like complaining about your back after bdiddy steals the ball from u and u lose the playoffs


----------



## THA DOCTA

*Can anybody answer the question: Who is better Kobe or McGrady?*

McGrady is obiviously more athletic then Kobe, but Kobe has that Jordanesque greatness about him. They both can score easily, but I think Kobe is the better one-on-one player. McGrady being 6'8'' and lengthier than Kobe allows him to accomplish more things offensively and defensively, but Kobe has better defense than McGrady. I honestly dont know whos better but I'll go with Kobe.


----------



## grizzoistight

*kc*

just for the record i didnt start this thread...


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

*Kobe Bryant = DRAMA QUEEN*

Where do I start.

Its not hard to figure out why Kobe keeps on insisting his knee is "killing him". Kobe is too good of a player for this BS. From the very start, to the very finish of the Rockets game he was cutting, creating, mad dunking, draining jumpers.... and then it never failed as soon as he started back down the court he would make sure everyone saw him grab at his knee and whimace. 

After the game in the interview he told TNT that he couldn't even cut. Yeah right Kobe, you were doing that the entire game and even dunking on the second to last possesion when the game was already over. Then after he finished the interview he ran over to madsen with no limp and congratulated him, but then as soon as he went to walk through the tunnel all of a sudden he is crazy limping. WTF 
Sir Charles is the man, after the game he was the onlyl one with the balls to point it out... Kobe only looked hurt on D.

ITS REALLY NOT HARD TO FIGURE OUT WHY. If kobe is playing without injury and drops 40+ and lakers still lose then the headlines will read "Kobe can't win without Shaq (or by himself)". BUT if Kobe plays with an elegid bum knee and drops 40+ and they lose the headlines will read "Even on one leg Kobe drops 40+ on the Rockets, while others don't step up". AND if they win, Kobe is the second coming...."Kobe drops 40+, while almost collapsing"  

Kobe is just too good of a player to do this crap, I"M NOT SAYING HE'S 100%, however anyone who's knee is killing them cannot perform the way Kobe did (slamming over ming, slamming after the game is over). OH YEAH why would Phil leave him in even after it was over, or for 54 minutes if he is in danger of seriously hurting himself, if he did the lakers would be lottery bound. Sir Charles had a great point, he said "It can't be fun for the other guys on the team" referring to the fact that they watch an alleged crippled Kobe try and drive past 3 defenders and shoot a fallaway 20 footer while there standing wide open. 
I'm ready for the heat. :fire: :rocket:


----------



## H2O

Word, I find it hard to believe that Kobe was all that hurtin'. 'Cause if he was, that means that a gimpy Kobe is still possibly the best player in the league, and definately top 5. Seemed mad sketch to me...


----------



## s a b a s 11

Hye Moderators,

More Kobe threads please, specifically started by grizzotight.

I am being dead serious, can Kobe Bryant have his own forum please? I am sick of all these Kobe bryant threads.

Seriously as much as I like the WNBA and want a forum for that, A Kobe Bryant forum wouldd thrive much more... being by itself with just IVs and grizzotights posts.

STuart


----------



## mook

I have completely changed my tune about Bryant. I used to think he was comparable to McGrady, perhaps even inferior, but was riding Shaq. It's plainly obvious now that he and Garnett are the two best players in the league, and at the rate Bryant's been going, he's probably going to be the undeniable best player in another few weeks. 

That being said, I completely agree that he's a drama queen. You just can't limp one minute, then beat a guy off the dribble and explode with a huge dunk at the rim. You just can't do it. 

It's kind of a shame that he does this sort of thing, because everything else he is doing is so amazing.


----------



## nicholai

> Originally posted by <b>dice'man</b>!
> 'Cause if he was, that means that a gimpy Kobe is still possibly the best player in the league, and definately top 5.


better believe it.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*You are SOOOOOOO on point ...*



> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> Where do I start.
> 
> Its not hard to figure out why Kobe keeps on insisting his knee is "killing him". Kobe is too good of a player for this BS. From the very start, to the very finish of the Rockets game he was cutting, creating, mad dunking, draining jumpers.... and then it never failed as soon as he started back down the court he would make sure everyone saw him grab at his knee and whimace.
> 
> After the game in the interview he told TNT that he couldn't even cut. Yeah right Kobe, you were doing that the entire game and even dunking on the second to last possesion when the game was already over. Then after he finished the interview he ran over to madsen with no limp and congratulated him, but then as soon as he went to walk through the tunnel all of a sudden he is crazy limping. WTF
> Sir Charles is the man, after the game he was the onlyl one with the balls to point it out... Kobe only looked hurt on D.
> 
> ITS REALLY NOT HARD TO FIGURE OUT WHY. If kobe is playing without injury and drops 40+ and lakers still lose then the headlines will read "Kobe can't win without Shaq (or by himself)". BUT if Kobe plays with an elegid bum knee and drops 40+ and they lose the headlines will read "Even on one leg Kobe drops 40+ on the Rockets, while others don't step up". AND if they win, Kobe is the second coming...."Kobe drops 40+, while almost collapsing"
> 
> Kobe is just too good of a player to do this crap, I"M NOT SAYING HE'S 100%, however anyone who's knee is killing them cannot perform the way Kobe did (slamming over ming, slamming after the game is over). OH YEAH why would Phil leave him in even after it was over, or for 54 minutes if he is in danger of seriously hurting himself, if he did the lakers would be lottery bound. Sir Charles had a great point, he said "It can't be fun for the other guys on the team" referring to the fact that they watch an alleged crippled Kobe try and drive past 3 defenders and shoot a fallaway 20 footer while there standing wide open.
> I'm ready for the heat. :fire: :rocket:


The "Czar" on TNT called it all night. Those watching Fox would never know since that is the Lakers' channel.

Doesn't it amaze you that the cameras just "HAPPEN" to catch him when he's grimacing? Every time?

You reason for him doing this absolutely right --- and BTW, when is the last time he played defense?

It's a good thing Reebok could see through him, because he would NEVER sale as many shoes for them as Allen because even those that don't like Allen have to admit he is REAL and doesn't play games.

Also, wasn't it funny how the Refs made sure to foul Yao out after Samaki left and to keep the game going until Kobe could win it, even if it took 5 OTs?

Kobe is "MJACKSON II" in the making --- a man so caught up in being someone else that he has to live in his own fabricated world, adapting mannerisms and trying to look like that person.

Olymmpian? Just WHAT do you think he'll do with a stage that big --- hell, the other players would never touch the ball or get camera time. I truly feel sorry for the guy. I had thought he had changed, but that was only when he was trying to prove to Reebok that he could change his ego and become likeable. Now that didn't happen --- here we go again. Somebody, please help him.

Good observation, clip. AND, might I add, a bold move on your part. People are so intimidated around here that they don't dare say anything against the Lakers, namely Kobe. Oh well ... guess I'm banned and this post will be deleted.


----------



## nicholai

*Re: You are SOOOOOOO on point ...*



> Originally posted by <b>Dynasty Raider</b>!
> Also, wasn't it funny how the Refs made sure to foul Yao out after Samaki left and to keep the game going until Kobe could win it, even if it took 5 OTs?


those were all legit with the exception of possibly his 6th foul, which was more than likely a make-up call for the bad call on the previous play.


----------



## Pinball

*Re: You are SOOOOOOO on point ...*



> Originally posted by <b>Dynasty Raider</b>!
> Good observation, clip. AND, might I add, a bold move on your part. People are so intimidated around here that they don't dare say anything against the Lakers, namely Kobe. Oh well ... guess I'm banned and this post will be deleted.


I don't know how long you've been posting here but people have bashed Kobe for quite some time now and all of them are still here. It doesn't take any balls to say "I don't like Kobe" because there is no threat of banishment that exists on this board for expressing an opinion. Don't get it twisted.


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

*Re: You are SOOOOOOO on point ...*



> Originally posted by <b>Dynasty Raider</b>!
> 
> Oh well ... guess I'm banned and this post will be deleted.


We will never be banned for sharing the truth with others. 

:laugh:


----------



## grizzoistight

*who cares if he was limping*

he still scored 52.. and won
hes not the one that brought up the knee problem
he didnt sit and complain about it
plus he didnt use it as an excuse like some people do after the game


----------



## grizzoistight

*sabas*

if anyone else in the league would so something id talk about them
this streak kobe on has only been matched by wilt and mj
so he deserves all the credit


----------



## ChiBron

I have never believed any injuries Kobe has had over the past years. Anybody who gets caught up in these kind of things have got to be unbelievably naive. How can u be so hobbled and yet move so fantastically well over the course of the game? Kobe, as good of a player he is, has always been a drama queen. He isn't even himself anymore, this is a guy whose incredibly obsessed to be like mike. From his facial expressions, to body language, to the talkin' style and now to faking injuries.

MJ's so called flu game was complete BS too if u ask me. How come as soon he goes to the bench he has a hard time standing and keeping his head up? While the second he steps on the floor......he's competing with the worlds gr8est athletes in an unmatched level of play. Athletes overdo injuries all the time, but guyz like Kobe take it to the extreme. Bad knee my a**......nobody looks that good on offense with a knee "thats killing".


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

*Re: who cares if he was limping*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> he still scored 52.. and won
> hes not the one that brought up the knee problem
> he didnt sit and complain about it
> plus he didnt use it as an excuse like some people do after the game


yes he did. How can you tell me that grabbing at it and whimacing every 30 seconds and right after you dunk over a 7 footer, is not complaining. :no: 

He never sat cause it couldn't have been that bad, or else he would have to sit. Or he would never have been able to take that many shots


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>s a b a s 11</b>!
> Hye Moderators,
> 
> More Kobe threads please, specifically started by grizzotight.
> 
> I am being dead serious, can Kobe Bryant have his own forum please? I am sick of all these Kobe bryant threads.
> 
> Seriously as much as I like the WNBA and want a forum for that, A Kobe Bryant forum wouldd thrive much more... being by itself with just IVs and grizzotights posts.
> 
> STuart


Be honest though, what gets more replies? "Kobe Bryant is the best player ever" and "Kobe vs. TMac" or "Did anyone see that layup by Avery Johnson last night" and "How about them Clippers?".


----------



## grizzoistight

*clip show*

if he doesnt play tonight 
will that prove to u he actually was injured??
i mean maybe he sucked up the pain and hurt.. quit hating man
maybe if your clippers played with the same heart they wouldnt be the biggest joke in the nba


----------



## Pinball

*Re: Re: who cares if he was limping*



> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> yes he did. How can you tell me that grabbing at it and whimacing every 30 seconds and right after you dunk over a 7 footer, is not complaining. :no:
> 
> He never sat cause it couldn't have been that bad, or else he would have to sit. Or he would never have been able to take that many shots


I don't think his knee injury really affected his leaping ability or his vertical movements. It was his lateral movement that was completely shot. On offense, no crossovers or hard cuts and on D he couldn't stick with Francis or Mobley. That dunk he had really wasn't that difficult. He took a very wide turn to get baseline and the rest was easy. But you didn't see the diverse offensive game that you usually do from Kobe. It was all jumpers.


----------



## grizzoistight

*i agree pinball*

kobe didnt have his full or array of moves..
plus he had a midget guarding him
if he was healthy he could have put 60 easliy on mobley
yea he forced a lot of shots
but he still shot 50+ %


----------



## Ron

Keep on hating, haters. :yes: Kobe will continue to collect MVPs and rings. :yes:

DR, no one gets banned for speaking his opinion. Nice try at becoming the martyr, but it didn't work.  :grinning: :laugh:


----------



## Dynasty Raider

> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> he still scored 52.. and won
> hes not the one that brought up the knee problem
> he didnt sit and complain about it
> plus he didnt use it as an excuse like some people do after the game


He doesn't have to "bring it up". He knows the cameras are on him every minute. The reporters wanted to know about his every change of jersey, so don't you think they'd question why he was wearing a sleeve so high on his knee and why he kept grimacing? Grimace = pain. You bought into it just as he know so many will. No need to voice it from his own lips. Besides, how else did we know he had a bad knee, from him or PJ or the grimaces?

Let's not be naive.


----------



## grizzoistight

*ron!!*

finally someone to get my back..
man for anyone who said kobe only wins becuz he has shaq.. obviously didnt watch the game last night
he hit like the first 6 shots from all over..
the rockets were so frustrated they were doubling him when he was just holding the ball at the 3 pt line.. van gundy said he had never seen anything like that before..
and when they did double kobe found the open man.. becuz of his great vision.. and fox fish and horry finally made some shots
it was an amazing display last night


----------



## grizzoistight

*you guys honestly think*

that kobe was doin that too put on a show and make it more dramatic??
i mean come on.. 
he has a lot more on his mind like carryin a bunch of srubs to a big win over a fully equipped rockets team
but it was strange though how kobe limped back on defense and not on offense.. 
im sure something is wrong though becuz hes been playin a lot of minutes and taking a lot of shots lately


----------



## Dynasty Raider

> Originally posted by <b>Ron</b>!
> Keep on hating, haters. :yes: Kobe will continue to collect MVPs and rings. :yes:
> 
> DR, no one gets banned for speaking his opinion. Nice try at becoming the martyr, but it didn't work.  :grinning: :laugh:


Thanks, in that case what other MVP does he have besides the one All Star award following the year he was booed so royally?

I'm not going to publicize our disagreement, Ron. You know my position on your power to monitor this board.


----------



## sylaw

It's a known fact that no matter what Kobe does, people will always find something to complain about him. He plays through pain and people says he's exaggerating or faking it. If he didn't play, I bet these guys would just say that he's a wuss for sitting it out. All you so-called doctors out there just assume he's never hurt. I'm real sure that AI is the only in the world that's truly injured and playing through pain all the time.


----------



## sylaw

Anyone notice how KC always posts something that puts down Kobe and makes T-Mac look better at the same time? But that's just an observation.


----------



## grizzoistight

*haha great point man*

tmac is always complaining about his back and its usually after a loss or when he goes 9 for 24.. kobe never misses games becuz of injuries he loves to play and compete maybe people should respect that
i wonder how many rings he has to win before people realize they are witnessing greatness
theres not one gm or one of yall in this forum that can honestly say youd rather have tmac over kobe on your team.. just his will to win ( which van gundy pointed out time after time)
plus by the end of the year he will have more points,rebounds, assits,steals,better foul % fg% and 3pt% than tmac
plus hell also be on the all defense first team along with all the first team.. and prob a mvp


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*If you truly believe that ...*



> Originally posted by <b>sylaw</b>!
> It's a known fact that no matter what Kobe does, people will always find something to complain about him. He plays through pain and people says he's exaggerating or faking it. If he didn't play, I bet these guys would just say that he's a wuss for sitting it out. All you so-called doctors out there just assume he's never hurt. I'm real sure that AI is the only in the world that's truly injured and playing through pain all the time.


Then just WHAT is their reason for doing so. There have been many good players in the league, but none as disliked as Kobe and/or Shaq.

So, just what do you think is the reason for so many hatin' on him? Certainly not because of his skills, because those same people always give him props for his skills. So why do you think they dislike him so much?

RE: AI's injuries -- at least they are injuries that you can SEE and he never grimaces to the camera --- never. Goes out and does his job without seeking pity or sympathy. Big difference.


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

> Originally posted by <b>Ron</b>!
> Keep on hating, haters. :yes: Kobe will continue to collect MVPs and rings. :yes:


The thing is I'm not trying to Hate on Kobe's skills. He is undeniably top 3 in the league. His game is sick, but his attitude makes me sick. He can't deal with even a shred of criticism. Like when people were saying he didn't pass enough, he overpassed on purpose. :|


----------



## FrozenIceCube

*Re: If you truly believe that ...*



> Originally posted by <b>Dynasty Raider</b>!
> 
> 
> So, just what do you think is the reason for so many hatin' on him? Certainly not because of his skills, because those same people always give him props for his skills. So why do you think they dislike him so much?


I think I have asked similar question in the "Kobe is the best player in the league" thread. I don't think people hate them because they win. I think it has alot to do with "how" they win, and "how" they represent themselves on and off the basketball court. Because I dont remember many people hating Hakeem, Magic, Bird or MJ when they were winning.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Exactly ...*



> Originally posted by <b>FrozenIceCube</b>!
> 
> 
> I think I have asked similar question in the "Kobe is the best player in the league" thread. I don't think people hate them because they win. I think it has alot to do with "how" they win, and "how" they represent themselves on and off the basketball court. Because I dont remember many people hating Hakeem, Magic, Bird or MJ when they were winning.



Kobe has walked around since Day One of entering the League like he deserved to be treated the same as MJ, because he had bought into the hype that he was the next coming of MJ.

All you have to do is pay attention to the body language of other players when they interact with Kobe. It is for sure MJ is no fan. MJ makes politically correct statements to maintain the integrity of the League --- not Kobe. Thus explains MJ's comment that Kobe could WEAR his shoes but never FILL them.

It's really kinda sad. Recently Kobe made the same statement about his current streak and being "in the zone" that MJ had just made during the All Star Game when asked how he felt the time he was "in the zone" and just shrugged his shoulders and put up his hands because he couldn't explain why everything he threw up just went in. It is Kobe's attempt to replication everything about MJ that has frustrated everyone old enough to know better, and that includes MJ.


----------



## kflo

alot of people hated bird, and his team.

as for kobe, i'm a bit perplexed about why some hate him so much. he's not that hated, for he was the leading vote getter for the a-s game. but for some, it runs pretty deep. it seems like minor mannerisms rub some deeply. why? he doesn't do much more look-at-me stuff on the court than others. he doesn't talk much trash in the media. he's not disrespectful. he plays hard. he practices, he sets a good example with his work ethic.

i mean, it usually boils down to facial expressions and mannerisms as reasons to passionately hate him. and that seems a bit overboard, don't you think? ask youself why you hate him so much, and then think if it's completely a rational response to what he does.


----------



## kcchiefs-fan

I'm not sure what you guys are makin a big deal over. I think he probably exaggerated it, I mean hell, I've done the same type of thing before. Everyone wants more attention. Tmac does it twice as bad as Kobe, but you aren't bashing him for it. Every game he'll make a shot than run down the floor with a painful grimmace on his face, then on the sideline he would act like he's working on his back and in incredible pain. Then would go on to complain about it after the game. If you think Kobe is the only one who does this, you're wrong. You guys keep trying to come up with ways to bash Kobe, his game is obviously out of reach now so you have to grasp hold of something else. Come on, at least come up with something that might actually have a point to it.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Exactly ...*



> Originally posted by <b>Dynasty Raider</b>!
> Thus explains MJ's comment that Kobe could WEAR his shoes but never FILL them.


i've never seen the quote where mj said that. a writer wrote it (he didn't even imply that mj said it), but i've never seen the quote attributed to mj.


----------



## Ubonics

> I have never believed any injuries Kobe has had over the past years. Anybody who gets caught up in these kind of things have got to be unbelievably naive. How can u be so hobbled and yet move so fantastically well over the course of the game? Kobe, as good of a player he is, has always been a drama queen. He isn't even himself anymore, this is a guy whose incredibly obsessed to be like mike. From his facial expressions, to body language, to the talkin' style and now to faking injuries.



Ight first of all with the MJ Flu game the dude was throwing up before the game and during halftime(which they have proof of) Its callled playin with heart its a freckin finals game of course the adrenaline was pumpin and if you watch MJ even after he hits a shot in that game he isnt all excited he looks sick and only half there. If your throwing up before and during a game lets see you drop 38 and win in the finals. It sad you would deny MJ like that.

And as for Kobe's knee i agree it prob affected his lateral movement more. And I have a had a knee prob most of my life which prob isnt like Kobe's but i can at least say it doesnt hurt me when im playing and running and stuff it will only hurt when I stop then it will get stiff again and it will really hurt after a game or the next day. im not sayin its the same but thats the way it works. ahhaha stop hatin on Kobe just because he can drop 40 every night and 52 last night and the guy on your team can't!!!!
(im not even from LA and im not a huge lakers fan but that doesnt mean i have to be jealous of a player)


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*OK ...*



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> as for kobe, i'm a bit perplexed about why some hate him so ask youself why you hate him so much, and then think if it's completely a rational response to what he does.



For all the reasons stated through any of my posts, in addition to:

* To be like someone else and NOT learn who HE is and be himself

* How he blamed his teammates when HE couldn't prove that he could carry the team without Shaq

* His cocky strut

* The way he turned his back on his family and put them out of the house in Palos Verdes Estates

* The way he looks at the refs as if to say, "Don't you know who I am and you called a foul on ME".

* The way he turned on Philadephia and denied it being his hometown, as if he is actually Italian (hahaha)

* His interaction with other players on the court. Watch it and then watch the comeraderie between other players with their opponents OR teammates for that matter. That has improved somewaht recently as he pursued Reebok and the realization that if he ever wants to leave the Lakers, he will need to have these guys be willing to have him on their teams (to play with him). It's one thing to make statements in front of the camera, it's an entirely different one when you're on the court and in the locker-room. Other players watched how he treated his teammates and that is not easily forgotten.

* There is so much much more ..

* Oh, and the time he claimed to have injured his right ribs, forgot the next time down the court and he knew the cameras were on, and grabbed his LEFT ribs and the commentators caught it. Which the entire story about how he'd been doing it since high school. Would pretend only to come back in the fourth quarter to be the savior and get his name in the paper. What a character.


----------



## Im The One

You couldnt be more right show, Im glad I am not the only person seeing this. Like show said were not hating on his skills but give me a break, play hard dont just be hurt on defense. I dont want to hear him complain about his knee hurting than go out and dunk on Yao. Dont tell me he wasnt trying to bring attention to it either. What was the first thing he said when the reporters asked how was the knee. Hearing Sean Elliot talk about Kobe after the game made me :hurl: 

I was wondering this, has there ever been a more hated championship team?


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

*Re: OK ...*



> Originally posted by <b>Dynasty Raider</b>!
> 
> 
> * The way he looks at the refs as if to say, "Don't you know who I am and you called a foul on ME".
> 
> 
> * His interaction with other players on the court.
> * There is so much much more ..


:clap: 

His interactions with players on the court- everytime someone does not do as Kobe sees fit, he gives them an evil glare. Meanwhile he goes down the court and tries to go 1 on 4 and then settles for a longrange fadeaway jumper, the very same thing he would give an evil look for to a teammate. 

In Kobe's mind he has yet to ever commit a foul. He is also fouled every time he drives to the hoop.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Exactly ...*



> Originally posted by <b>Dynasty Raider</b>!
> It's really kinda sad. Recently Kobe made the same statement about his current streak and being "in the zone" that MJ had just made during the All Star Game when asked how he felt the time he was "in the zone" and just shrugged his shoulders and put up his hands because he couldn't explain why everything he threw up just went in. It is Kobe's attempt to replication everything about MJ that has frustrated everyone old enough to know better, and that includes MJ.


see, you really believe this. that's kinda sad. in the zone is pretty ingrained in hoops vernacular. there's even a video game called in the zone. an old one.


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

*Re: OK ...*



> Originally posted by <b>Dynasty Raider</b>!
> 
> 
> * Oh, and the time he claimed to have injured his right ribs, forgot the next time down the court and he knew the cameras were on, and grabbed his LEFT ribs and the commentators caught it.


:rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*You miss understood, or you read ..*



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> see, you really believe this. that's kinda sad. in the zone is pretty ingrained in hoops vernacular. there's even a video game called in the zone. an old one.


exactly what you wanted to read.

My reference was not to the vernacular "In the zone", I was referring to the comment made by MJ and later repeated by Kobe when asked about being in the zone.

MJ's response was something like, "I can't explain it, I just felt like everything I threw up would go in. It was a surreal feeling." Two days later, Kobe said the exact same thing when asked about his streak.

Even *I* know the term, "In the Zone".


----------



## kflo

show me the quotes side by side.

how are you supposed to respond? players get in a zone, they feel like they can't miss. what would have been the proper answer?

do you really believe that kobe saw jordan's answer and made a point to repeat it because jordan said it?

you're clearly looking to make connections. you're looking too hard. relax.


----------



## grizzoistight

*who cares*

if kobe immitates mj.. 
i mean hes the best of all time
its better he acts like him than some bum or some guy with no class
yall hate too much and dont realize what 43+ the last 10 games means..


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*You're funny...*



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> show me the quotes side by side.
> 
> DR: I'll leave that research to you --- *I* heard it; didn't read it.
> 
> how are you supposed to respond?
> 
> DR: You should respond with YOUR words and YOUR feelings.  Remember, he's extremely articulate so I'm sure he has a vast vocabulary to express his feelings --- leave MJ's feelings to MJ and Kobe should find his.
> 
> do you really believe that kobe saw jordan's answer and made a point to repeat it because jordan said it?
> 
> DR: YES. He has a fixation. How do you explain everything else that he copies of MJ's
> 
> you're clearly looking to make connections.
> 
> DR: Don't have to look hard --- it's really obvious.


----------



## Showtime84'

This is one of the reasons why I hate the Flagrant foul rule.

In the old days,a player would NEVER let on that he was feeling pain because he knew that the next time down the court the other team would make it a point to hammer his as! to the ground.

That's what Jordan used to tell a young Scottie and Horace Grant when they faced the "Bad Boys", "Never let them see your're hurt, if you do they'll come after you even harder"

But now a days, with players getting ejected for looking the wrong way at another player, you have no measure of keeping the Kobe like "OSCAR" injury performances in check.

I would've LOVED for the young pampered stars of today to have played against a team like the Bad Boy Pistons to see what REAL pain and physical play are all about.


----------



## s a b a s 11

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Be honest though, what gets more replies? "Kobe Bryant is the best player ever" and "Kobe vs. TMac" or "Did anyone see that layup by Avery Johnson last night" and "How about them Clippers?".


I would love to chat about Avery Johnson. I don't mind Kobe threads or Tmac threads, or even Kobe vs. TMac threads... but theres a thing called moderation. At least they could try and better mask their threads or how about placing a "(Kobe thread)" after the subjects.

I'm kidding but you get my point. Anyways grizzotight sent me a PM requesting that I ask the Blazers how good kobe is, I am off to do that. 

See you all soon,
STuart


----------



## W1Z0C0Z

Kobe grew up to be the same height as Jordan. Kobe's weighs about the same as Jordan. Kobe plays the same position as Jordan. I hear Kobe has a verticle 3 inches shorter then Jordan.

All this stuff isn't by his doing. He grew up to be 6'6 which is a shooting guard and he's in the area of weight as most SG's in the league and they jump about the same.

Of course they are going to be similar. They are probably the two most athletic to play SG and everything so about the same. They are stronger and taller then many guards so they shoot turnaround fade aways. They jump high so they do crazy dunks. Their games are similar cause they were born to be similar in all the respects that effect your basketball game. Not Kobe's fault.

Also I don't know how much this effected, but Kobe's lived in Italy for a long time. Most overseas guys back in the day only knew Jordan. He was the big name. And his Dad being involved in basketball probably tought him some more guys, but Jordan is still the big name.

I know if I was 6'6, Black, 45 inch verticle, 210 and a guard I'd patern my game after Jordan. Jordan plays the way of the ultimate SG. The best at what a shooting guard should be doing and Kobe best since...


----------



## XYRYX

*Re: who cares*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> if kobe immitates mj..
> i mean hes the best of all time
> its better he acts like him than some bum or some guy with no class
> yall hate too much and dont realize what 43+ the last 10 games means..


correnct!
every little boy wants to be like MJ.
why must not Kobe?
everybody should respect Kobe's performances over the last games and that remembers me more than anything other of somebody who is on the wizards roster right now.


----------



## couchtomato

OK, now In a zone is a Michael Jordan Trademark? WOW? This kinda statement shows me what this is really all about. Did Michael also say he felt like Gepetto, that he felt like he could move in and out of the defenes at will. Look at the interviews - half of everything you hear in the NBA is a canned response. They all say the same thing. What Kobe is doing right now hasn't been seen in the NBA in over a decade and you people are too busy criticizing him after every performance to enjoy it. I know you thought with how the Lakers are struggling this year you'd be able to sit back and toast Kobe and prove how he is overrated. You thought finally the MJ comparisons would stop or that people would realize that (insert your favorite player here) was really the best player in the league and be recognized as such. Instead, Kobe is making history which won't allow you to enjoy the fact that the Lakers are having a mediocre season. And even if the Lakers don't make the playoffs, or Lakers lose early, Kobe still wins because he is cementing his position as the best player in the game today. And you all know, deep in your heart, that even if the worse happens, Kobe will be back - for the next ten years! Depsite his team's record he has grabbed the spotlight from everybody and he refuses to let it go. T-Mac broke Shaq's record a couple weeks back of most consecutive games over thirty. Impressive. But the Lakers are a team with a very rich history. Some of the greatest players who ever played this game are having their Laker records shot down one by one by the oh so overrated, Jordan wannabe. And that makes him news, every single night of the week. Live with it.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>Showtime84'</b>!
> This is one of the reasons why I hate the Flagrant foul rule.
> 
> In the old days,a player would NEVER let on that he was feeling pain because he knew that the next time down the court the other team would make it a point to hammer his as! to the ground.
> 
> That's what Jordan used to tell a young Scottie and Horace Grant when they faced the "Bad Boys", "Never let them see your're hurt, if you do they'll come after you even harder"
> 
> But now a days, with players getting ejected for looking the wrong way at another player, you have no measure of keeping the Kobe like "OSCAR" injury performances in check.
> 
> I would've LOVED for the young pampered stars of today to have played against a team like the Bad Boy Pistons to see what REAL pain and physical play are all about.


what a joke. the glory days of basketball were guys trying to hurt other players? that's basketball to you? taking advantage of an injury by going hard at an injured player is fine. but allowing players to foul hard to injure is your idea of the good ol days? c'mon.


----------



## nicholai

*Re: OK ...*



> Originally posted by <b>Dynasty Raider</b>!
> * How he blamed his teammates when HE couldn't prove that he could carry the team without Shaq


he had every right to call out his teammates. as good as kobe is, he can't make his teammates' shots fall.


----------



## Showtime84'

Did genetics also make Kobe have the same shooting motion, have a bicep band and stick his toungue out like Jordan? I don't think so. Thank God Kobe has small hands and an average hang time or else we would have seen the free throw line double clutch dunk with the tongue waggle and all a long time ago.

Hell I remember when Kobe declared for the draft in 96' with the sunglasses on his weird head, he gave an interview afterwards were he said "I just figured it's better for me to start now WHILE AM YOUNG"LOL!!!!! The same exact quote Jordan uttered back when he declared in 1984!!!

No surprise, even Kobe's frutty looking italian friend admitted they used to watch "Come Fly With Me" 100's of times a month!!!

There is some SERIOUS imitating going on here friends.

Too bad for Kobe, people only remember trendsetters like Russell, Chamberlain, Baylor, Dr.J, Magic, Bird and Jordan. These guys CREATED their own style on their local hard courts and drive ways.

What trend or style is Kobe setting??? NONE! He's just perfecting what he saw in the "Come Fly With Me" video.


----------



## kflo

kobe's job is to play basketball to the best of his abilities. not blaze a trail, or to invent new ways to be great. jordan was a trendsetter in the way he was marketed, and the heights to which he played the game. personally, i could care less about the marketed part. he's viewed as the best not because of any path he blazed, but because he played great.


----------



## kcchiefs-fan

This is beyond retarded now folks. For christ's sake, their's a song about wanting to be like Mike, so what's the big deal of trying to imitate him? What do you want him to do? And the posts about him saying the same thing as Jordan did at some point in time, well, that's stupid. I seriously doubt a man as busy as Kobe is doing more important things, would make it a point to remember and say the exact same thing as MJ. The only one that made any sense is the one when he was drafted, that's believable. The other's, like the one when he said he was in the zone, are plain ridiculous. First it was the drama queen, now it's being TOO much like Mike. Come on fellas, get real.

But, Dynasty or whoever it was, what is this about him kicking his family out or something to that extent. I never heard anything on this, what happened. That's the only thing any of you have posted that would merit disliking the guy, so could you give me the details?


----------



## Showtime84'

I can just imagine a 13 year old Kobe singing along with the Gatorade Jordan "jingle' in his livingroom.

Gotta give him credit though, nobody has imitaded Jordan as well as he has done.

Too bad he developed Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's personality.


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

When I started the thread I wasn't so much concerned about his obsession with Mike, although it points out some issues. I'm more sickened by the fact that he has to play up his injuries until he reaches god-like status. Kobe your not fooling me.


----------



## jazzy1

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> When I started the thread I wasn't so much concerned about his obsession with Mike, although it points out some issues. I'm more sickened by the fact that he has to play up his injuries until he reaches god-like status. Kobe your not fooling me.


AI played up the fact his thumb ,his shoulder, his toe was hurt .

VC played up his knee.

Paul Pierce the other game played up his groin.

TMac last year in the playoffs limped around during the playoffs playing up his back.

Get the theme here it isn't what Kobe's doing just the fact that you point it out that signifiies it. The fact that you don't like him is spurring on this criticism or you criticism would be more widespread. 

Come to think of it why woudn't MJ have played up his flu against the Jazz get even more credit for fighting through it. He was falling into Pips arms like he couldn't hardly breath yet still was scoring 40 on the Jazz and dunking and balling despite it. Its part of what athletes do play the hero role so what but dependant on your point of view ohers draw more criticism of it than others that all.


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> AI played up the fact his thumb ,his shoulder, his toe was hurt .
> 
> VC played up his knee.
> 
> Paul Pierce the other game played up his groin.
> 
> TMac last year in the playoffs limped around during the playoffs playing up his back.


I thought Vince had surgery? I thought these guys missed games and played less minutes. 
Meanwhile Kobe plays 54 minutes! and takes a ton of crazy shots. IF you have a real INJURY not the flu ( I didn't see that Jordan game) you are going to be physically limited, theres no other way to put it. Kobe didn't look limited.


----------



## nicholai

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> Kobe didn't look limited.


of course he didn't. kobe is a freaking basketball god.


----------



## rynobot

Most people let the pain tell them what to do, But Kobe ignores the pain and keeps on playing.


----------



## grizzoistight

*kobe got treatment all day*

and even on the plane ride to utah
hes not faking it...
yall are crazy for thinking that
hes a gametime decision..


----------



## Lakers_32_4ever

this is bull

it is no longer about the drama queen or fake injury, but the fact that he is a copycat


big whoop

that is such a rare quote, i figure i woud start when i am young


yea hoo.

No person ever said that huh... MJ owns every word he ever said.

Ooops.. I said "i, the" etc.. 

Michael said those in his life. i am a copycat. Lord Help me.
Get a real reason to hate.

SO what if he imitates jordan? If mj is the best, isn't imataing the best still pretty darn good. 

how many original shooting guards can you have? They all do the same damn thing.

Get this in your head.
ALL SHOOTING GUARDS ARE SIMILAR BY HOW THEY PLAY< THAT IS WHY THEY ARE SHOOTING GUARDS

kobe is one of the best. Admit it.

Screw copying jordan. Big damn whoop. 

How come no one hates lebron? dAMN that kid has one *****y ego


----------



## grizzoistight

*the guy on sportscenter said it perfect..*

is kobe cocky?? well multiply it times 5 and you still wouldnt be half as cocky as mj.. he would never talk to the media and always walked around like he was ontop of the world..

then he asked is he selfish.. well look at the other guys on the team.. fox fisher and samaki last time i checked arent great one on one players.. keep on shooting kobe esp when your 48% from the floor and 47from three

anways in this streak of 43 points a game their 8 and 2 so he must be doin something right


----------



## Ubonics

> Originally Posted by Jazzy1 :: Come to think of it why woudn't MJ have played up his flu against the Jazz get even more credit for fighting through it. He was falling into Pips arms like he couldn't hardly breath yet still was scoring 40 on the Jazz and dunking and balling despite it. Its part of what athletes do play the hero role so what but dependant on your point of view ohers draw more criticism of it than others that all.


Im Just gonna post this again so jazzy1 can read it cause apparently he didn't. I guess cause he is still bitter about the Jazz'a 2 defeats in the finals at the hands of MJ he has to be hatin'



> Originally Posted by Ubonics :: Ight first of all with the MJ Flu game the dude was throwing up before the game and during halftime(which they have proof of) Its callled playin with heart its a freckin finals game of course the adrenaline was pumpin and if you watch MJ even after he hits a shot in that game he isnt all excited he looks sick and only half there. If your throwing up before and during a game lets see you drop 38 and win in the finals. It sad you would deny MJ like that.


----------



## ChiBron

As someone in this thread question as to y the hatred towards Kobe runs so deep. Well, IMO, apart from the gr8 player he is, believe me, every other hate directed towards him is fully related to his mannerisms on and off the court. It comes of very disrespectful and its not a pretty thing to watch. Since LA have been such a successful team over the past 3 years, we all have been able to watch them on national tv on a consistent basis. After seeing Kobe time and time again, it comes of extremely hard to like him or route for him even for a minute. Even people who don't really watch a lot of basketball(my 2 g/f's) can smell his cockiness very easily. 

Someone today on the espn chats talked abt how people r insecure that Kobe might just be even more cockier then MJ on the court. Ok, first of all, MJ's cockiness never came off this disrespectful and authoritive. Kobe has taken every inch of MJ's mannerisms(by god knows how many years he studied it) and given it a very nasty/evil twist to it. He probably failed to realize how unlikeable this makes him be. One sports writer wrote an excellent article last year titled "Kobe - Misunderstood, or just Disrespectful?"

Anyway, with that said, I got to admit i was pretty surprised to see kobe lead the league in all star votes......he's easily the most hated person i have ever seen in the nba. And it ain't any ordinary dislike, its just nasty.


----------



## JerryWest

He's the best player in the game right now, and people will always find reasons to hate him, especially as he gets better, people always want their old heroes to always remain the best...

and when there is a threat to their old heros, they try to find things to bash the up and coming guys.

People remember the winners only, and Kobe is winning, and people are jealous...

If Jordan never won anything, all he would have been remembered as is something along the lines of Nique...

Maybe it's because Kobe is good...
maybe it's because he doesn't do drugs or beat his wife like other stars...

I guess guys who commit crimes have better attitudes than a confident guy who works hard at his job.


----------



## grizzoistight

*who honestly cares*

that these people think kobe isnt good
i mean stats dont lie
rings dont lie
and judging by the last 10 games.. hes been the best

the people last time i checked dont vote for the mvp award
they dont pay kobes check for the lakers
they wont be giving kobe the richest shoe endorsment deal of all time

its obvious that kobe is still liked he led the nba in all star votes
dont worry about these people hating.. their just mad cuz their team has no rings and kobes been on fire.. and is on the way to break all of jordans records.. 
by the way when jordan scored 37 points a game for a season ( at 24) how far did they get in the playoffs


----------



## kflo

for gods sake, listen to yourself. his mannerisms are disrespectful????? good lord. of all the players on the court, it's kobe alone whose mannerisms are so distasteful to make him dispised? can you see how this would seem a bit bizarre?


----------



## thegza

I'm so freaking sick of these haters, for every damn good thing Kobe does there always has to be another side to the story. Who cares if he is a drama queen? That doesn't change the fact that he scored 52 points and he completely dominated the Rockets and took them to double overtime does it? Exactly my point. Kobe Bryant can go ahead and be a drama queen if he wants to, who gives a flying sh*t. You guys are just flat out hating because Kobe is the best player in the NBA, He plays for the best team, and he's going to collect more rings and MVP awards. It's ridiculous how much you guys waiste time hating on Kobe when deep down you know the man is simply amazing and is the #1 player in the NBA currently. Only player(s) that comes close is Garnett and Duncan.

Kobe Bryant will just keep winning ball games, and dropping 40+ point performances so go ahead and be losers hating on him but he'll have the ring at the end and the MVP trophy so it sure as hell won't hurt a bit if you think he is a "drama queen". Ha, how sad!  


Go Lakers!


----------



## Pinball

I'm so sick and tired of all these MJ nut clutchers who think the guy invented the game of basketball. Maybe we shold just rename the league the Michael Jordan Association. Every move was invented by MJ. Every shot was invented by MJ. Every action and reaction was invented by MJ. The art of winning was invented by MJ. When does it stop people?


----------



## grizzoistight

*hey jamal*

i just read on espn.com that kobe couldnt sleep last night becuz people like clip show and kc think hes fakin the injury...honestly who cares...??
by the way how many records has kobe set this year??
i know he just broke jerry the logo west record..

theres only 2 guys who have scored 50 this year and kobes done it twice..
and kobe doesnt make his team better?? yea thats why hes 11th in the leauge in assits.. and has more tripple doubles than anyone else


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

Damn I've heard enough from the so called "kobe supporters". 

this is not about skills or rings..... he has those. 

Second I've never been a Jordan fan..... so I'm not mad cause he might eclipse Jordan.

This is about acting more injured than you really are, so that you'll get more accolades.


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

*Re: hey jamal*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> i just read on espn.com that kobe couldnt sleep last night becuz people like


Do the espn reporters sleep with him? Then theres no way he'll play tonight right? He was probable for last night too, and what do you know he played 54 minutes.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Kobe has cocky mannerisms. Guys like TMac, Paul Pierce and Jermaine O'Neal say things like they are "unguardable" or "the best player in basketball." Or they also like to whine about having to play with scrub teamates. If Kobe said any of this you haters would lynch him.

Mannerisms or quotes? But as SPMJ said they aren't on national TV and don't get as much attention. So I guess you can't hate someone you don't watch. If Kobe played for Denver and never won a playoff series he wouldn't be hated. Face it. You people that hate Kobe also probably hate Phil, Shaq and most things Laker. Including Laker fans.


----------



## rainman

kobe is putting on a great offensive run but his numbers are about the same as mcgrady,45% shooting,29,30 per game.people focus more on kobe because its the lakers,a lot of his damage has come against weak defensive teams,he's been great though.as far as the jordan thing i think kobe is probably as good an offensive player as jordan was,the differance is jordan was a better defender,kobe can play defense but he gives up defense to focus more on scoring,jordan could manage a game better,make others better,just a better overall player,one more thing kobe has coppied everything from jordan,there's something about being the original.


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

> Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!
> Or they also like to whine about having to play with scrub teamates. If Kobe said any of this you haters would lynch him.


Yeah Kobe does whine about them, but goes above and beyond that - he throws cheap shot punches at them, just ask Samaki.

And I do like Shaq, Phil, and other Lakers.


----------



## grizzoistight

*he hit samaki*

cuz he always gives him great passes and he never finishes
kobes will to win caused him to punch samaki
face it no other guy on the lakers team last night would start for any of the top 16 teams in the league..


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

*Re: he hit samaki*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> cuz he always gives him great passes and he never finishes
> kobes will to win caused him to punch samaki
> face it no other guy on the lakers team last night would start for any of the top 16 teams in the league..


Great excuse to go off and assault someone. You've just demonstrated the logic of a Kobe supporter - "kobe does, can, and should do whatever he wants, while there is another standard for everyone else". 

That has got to be one of the worst excuses I've ever heard, Samaki misses a layup Kobe should be able to kick his a..


----------



## grizzoistight

*clip show*

obviously youve never played organized ball
i know back when i played things would get heated in practice..
even at florida one time nelson got hit
people get so competitive and they want to win..
its not like kobe hates samaki
your just bein a hater 
GO CLIPPERS


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

*Re: clip show*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> obviously youve never played organized ball
> i know back when i played things would get heated in practice..
> even at florida one time nelson got hit
> people get so competitive and they want to win..
> its not like kobe hates samaki
> your just bein a hater
> GO CLIPPERS


I've only played organized sports since I was 5, I know what its like, I am an ultra competitive person, but there is something called "self control" especially when your a pro. This is one of the reasons why people dislike him.

GO GRIZZARD:laugh:


----------



## W1Z0C0Z

Now I'm only 19 now so I wasn't exactly paying attention to basketball so I'm looking for the comments of others, but I think I know the answer...

Kobe is 24 years old...

People are saying Jordan made his team better, but Kobe doesn't.

I think, so don't kill me if I have it messed up, when Jordan was 24 was the year he was averaging 36 points a game for the season.

I've also read many books on Jordan and I highly doubt he was considered, and in the books I've read, he wasn't considered a team player when he was younger. I'm assuming when he was scoring 36 points a game and loosing the conversations were very similar to the way many talk in this forum.

I would love so much to be able to find a forum that for some stupid reason kept all the conversations back to the 80's. It'd be awesome to see what people wrote day to day back then..

Hehe, never refresh this forum EVER... I wanna come back in 20 years and see it..


----------



## kcchiefs-fan

clip, honestly, what you're trying to accuse him of, he is less guilty than many other guys in the league. Jeez, can't you understand, Tmac is much worse about exaggerating injuries than Kobe, and how do you know how much he exaggerated anyway. Maybe YOU can't do the things Kobe can with a hurt knee, but how do you know he exaggerated it so much? Oh that's right, you don't. I think he may have exaggerated it some, but let's face it, all the big players do it, so they can have a "heroic" performance, and get more attention. If you've played competitive sports since you were 5, like you say, then I'm guessing you did something of the sort while you were playing. The difference is you didn't drop 52 and pull off a double-OT win against a potential playoff team almost single-handedly. That's why you're trying to come up with this garbage.


----------



## TMOD

*Another generic Kobe thread...*

-Becoming a bit of a 'pure shooter'
-Not that fast, or that quick
-Strong
-Good body control
-Can't defend fast people who look to drive (they break him)
-Best player in the NBA at the moment
-Will never be Jordan
-Will be near...
-Overrated on defense, but still quite good
-Not looking for teammates as much lately
-Who can blame him?
-Forces some shots...but they are still better shots than a wide open Samaki Walker 12 footer
-Hits a lot of those forced shots (is that damn good)
-Developing leader
-Talented passer
-Gets calls
-Seems to only get 'tired' or 'hurt' on defense, or when he is going to lose
-Won't score another 35+ today (AK47 and Harpring, plus team play of Jazz= less than 31)
-Still getting better
-Gets too much 'hate' but not enough 'constructive criticism'
-Do we still feel like he rides Shaq coat tails?
-Still better than T-Mac, regardless of any argument
-Feel free to comment on any of these statements regardless of whether you agree with me or not (not like I can stop you) 
-The end
-Smilies
- :yes:  :grinning:


----------



## Lizzy

*Re: clip show*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> obviously youve never played organized ball
> i know back when i played things would get heated in practice..
> even at florida one time nelson got hit
> people get so competitive and they want to win..
> its not like kobe hates samaki
> your just bein a hater
> GO CLIPPERS


I believe Kobe and Samaki do hate each other. kobe punched him on the team bus. When Samaki was on the espn local radio show they asked him about it and he alluded to the fact that they aren't really friends. 

Someone before asked why the Lakers were so hated. I'll give my reasons b/c I'm bored.

The role players aren't good yet talk so much ****. Walker and Fox talk big games for guys that really stink. 

After victories Shaq acts like a tool. Saying he slept with Christies wife, talking about Sacramento, saying he thought of a way to play Vlade while taking a crap. Come on - if Jordan had said that he nailed Gary Payton's wife and compared Utah to his stool sample - I'd be ashamed to call myself a fan. 

I truly feel that most people realize that Shaq is good but don't like him. It's hard to root for Goliath. Especially when Goliath also thinks he's Chris Rock.

Kobe was being called the best in the league before he actually was. The media loves him so much so it's easy to go against the media. Kobe, right now, if the best in the game. But writers have been saying it for two or three years. 

Kobe does that thing where he pushes out his lips after he does something good. Like hitting a wide-open jumper one minutes into a game. I mean - that's like a lineman celebrating after dropping a guy for a one yard loss right after kick-off. Relax! There's a long game ahead. (BTW - this is the same reason I got sick of watching Vince Carter - must we pose after every dunk like it's the muscle man competition)?


The fans normally don't know a lick about basketball. Usually people who are big enough fans to be on a message board know a lot. That's true about any Laker fans I meet at message boards. But I have overheard some of the dumbest most close-minded **** about the lakers in the 7 years I've been here. These people can't name 8 guys on the team and don't watch until late April. It's a joke.

I'm sure people will disagree. I'm just stating why I think the Lakers are embraced. 

*I do, however, think if Shaq weren't on the team and Kobe was paired w/ a Shawn Marion or Rasheed Wallace they would be one of the most loved teams in the league. *


----------



## nicholai

*Re: Re: clip show*



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> I believe Kobe and Samaki do hate each other. kobe punched him on the team bus. When Samaki was on the espn local radio show they asked him about it and he alluded to the fact that they aren't really friends.


i wouldn't be friends with a person who's responsible for 95% of my turnovers either.



> Especially when Goliath also thinks he's Chris Rock.


but goliath _is_ chris rock.



> But writers have been saying it for two or three years.


big deal. i've been saying it for four or five. 



> Kobe does that thing where he pushes out his lips after he does something good. Like hitting a wide-open jumper one minutes into a game. I mean - that's like a lineman celebrating after dropping a guy for a one yard loss right after kick-off. Relax! There's a long game ahead. (BTW - this is the same reason I got sick of watching Vince Carter - must we pose after every dunk like it's the muscle man competition)?


showmanship is good.


----------



## Sean

best thread of the year! :laugh:


----------



## dr-dru

the year jordan avg, 37.1 his team went 40-42. kobe's lakers will have a better record than that but to say jordan didn't make his team better is somewhat wrong. the two best players on that 86-87 bulls cept for jordan were a young oakley, and john paxson.

that 86-87 year, oakley had the best season of his career. john paxson also had the best season of his career. 

oakley avg 14pts and 13rbd
paxson avg 11pts and 5.7bd

except for those two his supporting lineup was utter crap. jordan didn't have much to work with at all, but he got that crap supporting cast to a 40-42 record.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Another generic Kobe thread...*



> Originally posted by <b>TMOD</b>!
> -Not that fast, or that quick


"When he's shooting that well from the 3 you can't really push up on him because his first step is so explosive" - latrell sprewell

good post though.


----------



## shobe42

I don't know if I agree with the faking injury thing. I believe it's true. 

Also he is quicker than you said and he has a damn quick release.

I do agree although a very good defender he can be overrated because soemtimes his guy will score a lot if hes less known or respected.
But he can stop guys when he is sent to do it. ie. Mike Bibby last year in the 2nd half of game 4

Good thread.

Also 18 after the first quarter v. Utah, when will this end. Simply amazing


----------



## shobe42

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> I have never believed any injuries Kobe has had over the past years. Anybody who gets caught up in these kind of things have got to be unbelievably naive. How can u be so hobbled and yet move so fantastically well over the course of the game? Kobe, as good of a player he is, has always been a drama queen. He isn't even himself anymore, this is a guy whose incredibly obsessed to be like mike. From his facial expressions, to body language, to the talkin' style and now to faking injuries.
> 
> MJ's so called flu game was complete BS too if u ask me. How come as soon he goes to the bench he has a hard time standing and keeping his head up? While the second he steps on the floor......he's competing with the worlds gr8est athletes in an unmatched level of play. Athletes overdo injuries all the time, but guyz like Kobe take it to the extreme. Bad knee my a**......nobody looks that good on offense with a knee "thats killing".



It's called heart. Those two examples without your opinoins in them are why those two are so great. It's because of heart. Not enough people understand.


----------



## shobe42

I can answer it. Have you been watching this year. Have you wathced the last ten games? 

It's Kobe by a mile.

Tracy McGrady is Michael Jordans Clyde Drexler


----------



## dr-dru

..what was the point of your thread..obviously after the last 10 games, you know what every kobe lover or everyone in here is going to say.


----------



## Julo

both playas are ballin outta control, but right now it seems like kobe can take over better than t-mac in the last 5 mins + OT

but then again Kobe has a center who demands a double team

being a lake show fan, I gosta go with my boy kb8, but it'll be nice to see T-mac play with another dominant big man and see how he operates

If Drew molds into a good option inside the paint, and GG takes some pressure off the double teams, T-mac just needs a big guy in the middle to make the magic a force in the playoffs


----------



## pharcyde

*Re: Kobe Bryant = DRAMA QUEEN*



> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> Where do I start.
> 
> Its not hard to figure out why Kobe keeps on insisting his knee is "killing him". Kobe is too good of a player for this BS. From the very start, to the very finish of the Rockets game he was cutting, creating, mad dunking, draining jumpers.... and then it never failed as soon as he started back down the court he would make sure everyone saw him grab at his knee and whimace.
> 
> After the game in the interview he told TNT that he couldn't even cut. Yeah right Kobe, you were doing that the entire game and even dunking on the second to last possesion when the game was already over. Then after he finished the interview he ran over to madsen with no limp and congratulated him, but then as soon as he went to walk through the tunnel all of a sudden he is crazy limping. WTF
> Sir Charles is the man, after the game he was the onlyl one with the balls to point it out... Kobe only looked hurt on D.
> 
> ITS REALLY NOT HARD TO FIGURE OUT WHY. If kobe is playing without injury and drops 40+ and lakers still lose then the headlines will read "Kobe can't win without Shaq (or by himself)". BUT if Kobe plays with an elegid bum knee and drops 40+ and they lose the headlines will read "Even on one leg Kobe drops 40+ on the Rockets, while others don't step up". AND if they win, Kobe is the second coming...."Kobe drops 40+, while almost collapsing"
> 
> Kobe is just too good of a player to do this crap, I"M NOT SAYING HE'S 100%, however anyone who's knee is killing them cannot perform the way Kobe did (slamming over ming, slamming after the game is over). OH YEAH why would Phil leave him in even after it was over, or for 54 minutes if he is in danger of seriously hurting himself, if he did the lakers would be lottery bound. Sir Charles had a great point, he said "It can't be fun for the other guys on the team" referring to the fact that they watch an alleged crippled Kobe try and drive past 3 defenders and shoot a fallaway 20 footer while there standing wide open.
> I'm ready for the heat. :fire: :rocket:


I realize that this is a pretty long thread and I assume that what I'm about to say has already been said, but I don't feel like wading through all the crap right now, so I'll just say it anyway.

I didn't see the game, so I can't speak for myself about Kobe's performance, but I know that MJ played sick or hurt many times and most of the time didn't really look sick while doing it, only after the action died down a little bit. Wasn't he pretty sick in that game 6 against the Jazz, the game where he scored over 40 and made what should have been his last shot? Even if he wasn't there were plenty of other times when he was sick and he didn't look like it on the court. Give Kobe a freakin' break.

Kobe haters are always trying to bash him, saying that he's trying to act like Jordan, but Lebron is openly obsessed with being like Jordan, refusing to be measured or weighed (after he his Jordan's height he wouldn't let anyone measure him), wearing his number, etc. Get off Kobe's back.


----------



## <<<D>>>

Haterz/Doubters are just HURTIN 4 CERTAIN NOW....
or shall we say all over again. :laugh: 
If they can't appreciate how Kobe has risen and elevated his game, they are just all blinded by their own hatred and just hurts them the most. Kobe has simply made his mark around the League. His hard work during the off-season is paying off and most important his competitive heart is what seperates him from the rest.
You all have seen it, you all know it, just admitt it


----------



## Ubonics

> Originally Posted by Shobe42 :: It's called heart. Those two examples without your opinoins in them are why those two are so great. It's because of heart. Not enough people understand.


Def Shobe i think me and you are the only people that understand what having heart is. it's willing yourself beyond normal and no one seems to understand this. If everyone would look at my other posts in this thread maybe they can get a clue.

"Love is playing on nothing but Heart"


----------



## rynobot

> Originally posted by <b><<<D>>></b>!
> Haterz are just HURTIN 4 CERTAIN NOW....(Too funny)
> or shall we say all over again.  = :laugh:
> If they can't appreciate how Kobe has risen and elevated his game, they are just all blinded by their own hatred and just hurts them the most. Kobe has simply made his mark around the League, you all have seen it, you all know it, just admitt it


I admit it, I admit it. Kobe is the best.


----------



## LakerMania

*Re: Another generic Kobe thread...*



> Originally posted by <b>TMOD</b>!
> --Won't score another 35+ today (AK47 and Harpring, plus team play of Jazz= less than 31)
> -


Nice post but we know this part isn't true. :grinning:


----------



## grizzoistight

*another 40 pt game to beat utah in utah*

plus he shot 50% again
where are the haters


----------



## <<<D>>>

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> 
> I admit it, I admit it. Kobe is the best.


Okay.....Okay.....Okay  
By the way eversince you got Maddog on your Avatar...
He's been playing well, thanks for brining in the luck :yes:


----------



## Raptor Fan 42

He got 40 points, and had these wierd electrodes on his leg.


----------



## rynobot

D check your PMs


----------



## thrice911

> By the way eversince you got Maddog on your Avatar...


Yes! Rynobot must keep the Madsen avatar to continue mad dog's suprising effective play!


----------



## grizzoistight

*mad dog has skillz*

he was good at stanford.. and he has actually has a kobeesque work ethic..


anyways kobe just broke one of mjs record and there are many more to come..


----------



## Arclite

I watched the game.. just a few of my thoughts.

a) Kobe is simply amazing offensively. He got 3 of his shots Stovetopped by Kirilenko, and it didn't even faze him, he just came back and nailed jumpers and threes right over Drei's fingertips like he wasn't even there. I haven't seen anyone hit shots of that difficulty with that kind of consistency since you know who..

b) His knee is fine, I've seen people play injured and that's NOT how they play  . I'd let anyone on my team fake an injury if they'd score 40 pts 7 straight games though.

c) LAL needs to bring in someone as a third scorer. Fisher was Stockton's (female dog) tonight, the pasty gangster had 3 blocks. UNACCEPTABLE.

d) While KG is probably a bit more deserving at this point, if LAL makes the playoffs (and they will), Kobe will get the MVP. That's just how the NBA is.

Coming from a Kobe-disliker , I want to give Kobe props for doing what it takes for his team to win.


----------



## grizzoistight

*if his knee didnt hurt*

why everytime when he sat out.. they put those elctroid things on it??
by the way scoring 40 on ak is impressive.. that kid has long arms.. he held kobe to 11 one game last year


----------



## Arclite

Grizzo, I know you have a collection of Kobe jocks hanging around your house like lays in a Hawaiian condo, but you don't play 54 minutes in double-overtime, drop a 52 point bomb, and then come back and score 40 on the top on-the-ball defender in the NBA with a knee that "kills".

I played AA high school ball for 3 years, and I know that if you have a serious knee injury, you can't play at that level, you just can't. If it's a little stinger and he's playing on it, then GJ Kobe for playing through pain, but anyone who's watched him the last two games knows it's a ploy for attention.

After bling-bling, acting is the second biggest part of the NBA, didn't you know? But like I said, props to Kobe for giving his team two huge wins over two very good ballclubs.


----------



## c_dog

Earlier this season, it was T-Mac, but recently, Kobe has been unstoppable. So as of right now, Kobe is better.


----------



## grizzoistight

*man i forgot*

that AA hs ball is the same as a hall of fame basketball player goin out there..( i played 4 A WHOPP DE DOO)
kobe has nothing to prove to anyone they already realize hes great.. yea i think its weird that he played 50+ minutes then played good tonight..
anyways so do u think jordan was fakin the flu? or kirk gibson fakin his injury??
superstars just suck it up and play.. kobe is tough man he doesnt miss games becuz of injuries -- i think he prob would have sat out tonight if shaq wasnt hurt.. but they need every win so he had to play


----------



## Arclite

An injury is an injury. I'm sure Kobe plays through pain just like every other guy in the NBA does because of the rigorous schedule..

But Kobe is notorious for overplaying injuries, and are you saying that with a bum knee you can just jump and dunk over 7-6 swatters like Yao, explode to the hole and rise up to shoot over a 6-9 player with a 7-2 wingspan and a 44 inch vertical? Cause guess what, you can't.

It's that simple.


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> Grizzo, I know you have a collection of Kobe jocks hanging around your house like lays in a Hawaiian condo, but you don't play 54 minutes in double-overtime, drop a 52 point bomb, and then come back and score 40 on the top on-the-ball defender in the NBA with a knee that "kills".
> 
> I played AA high school ball for 3 years, and I know that if you have a serious knee injury, you can't play at that level, you just can't. If it's a little stinger and he's playing on it, then GJ Kobe for playing through pain, but anyone who's watched him the last two games knows it's a ploy for attention.
> 
> After bling-bling, acting is the second biggest part of the NBA, didn't you know? But like I said, props to Kobe for giving his team two huge wins over two very good ballclubs.


:laugh: :clap: :laugh: 

Thank you Sovereignz. I will say this one last time..... I am not saying Kobe is not a great, fantastic, HOF, awesome, explosive etc etc etc player..... MY POINT is simply, Why does he have to put on this acting job? And I think the anwers obvious - It makes him look like a million times better. 
As Sovereignz pointed out again... someone on an "injured" knee, who is actually playing doesn't play 54 yes 54 explosive minutes (and remember he scored 52 wich means he wasn't just standing out there, no Shaq either), flys immediately to Utah and plays a ton of minutes and scores 40 the very next night. That is proof right there he is playing it up. You guys are sooo damn niaeve. Remember before you reply, I repeat I am not saying Kobe isn't phenomenal.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

This is all rediculous hating, Allen Iverson wears a cast on his arm and still scores 40 points on any given night, Tmac has chronic back spams or whatever and still manages to lead the league in scoring, knowone questions these guys, yet they dont believe it when kobe is injured? please. its getting old.


----------



## couchtomato

Do you not understand that the Lakers have the finest doctors/trainers in the world - one that probably spent the last 24 hours with Kobe with one thing in mind - get him well enough to play in the game? After treatment last night and all day today Kobe said he felt better than he did before the Houston game. It's called modern medicine. Get a grip and a clue.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

> Originally posted by <b>couchtomato</b>!
> Do you not understand that the Lakers have the finest doctors/trainers in the world - one that probably spent the last 24 hours with Kobe with one thing in mind - get him well enough to play in the game? After treatment last night and all day today Kobe said he felt better than he did before the Houston game. It's called modern medicine. Get a grip and a clue.


so whats your opinion? is he really hurt or is he a drama queen?


----------



## buduan

I see, Kobe fakes injuries but Jordan was heroic when he conveniently got sick or had other ailments.

Hypocrites.


----------



## hellrazor08

*...*

man are some of you idiots actually in kobes shoes? i mean how the hell do you know kobes knee is not really injured? ijust because hes playing great still doesnt mean that hes faking an injury. each injury is unique to the person who has the injury. i mean ive broken an ankle and was still able to run on it for half a mile, does that mean im faking my broken ankle? ive had a friend tear an acl and still play basketball on it afterwards, does that mean hes faking an injury? so kobes able to play through pain but obviously you haters have nothing else better to do but start ish. i mean seriously dont give this "yea i respect his skills but hes faking an injury" crap as if you trying to hide the fact that youre a petty hater. but whatever i guess ppl will hate when your on top.


----------



## IV

*Re: Can anybody answer the question: Who is better Kobe or McGrady?*



> Originally posted by <b>THA DOCTA</b>!
> McGrady is obiviously more athletic then Kobe


How is Tracy obviously more athletic? 

They both possess a superior amount of athleticism.


----------



## IV

I love Kobe scrutiny!  

He always does what they say he wont. :yes:


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> You're always knocking him, saying he isn't a clutch player, he doesn't play hard, he's selfish...etc. I think he's a great player and deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Kobe. Do I think he's as good as Kobe? He has the potential but I don't think he's quite as good no. That doesn't mean he's a scrub or anything. I'll take Kobe because he plays for the Lakers and is a bit more aggressive and I like that in a player. Magic fans would probably choose TMac and there is nothing wrong with that.


I agree with alot of what you said. I'm not sure how I come across as thinking Tmac is a scrub. I have called him a fantastic player. He is a tremendous talent, but like you said he is not as good as Kobe. Yes, he derserves to be mentioned in the same breathe, but he's can't hold Bryant weight. 
You might hear me criticize him about not being clutch, and that's because he's not. I dont think of Tracy as a under pressure performer. The selfishness? I'm not sure what you're refering to? If I've said that he is a selfish player it slips my mind, but I could have. It's easy to get rapped up in a spiteful debate with a hater. Happens all the time.

Just for the record. Tmac is a superstar. He's got a lot of talent and I think he hasn't nearly reached his potential. If you look at any of my top ten players or best NBA players, Tracy is heading those list. He has my respect.


----------



## Jamel Irief

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah Kobe does whine about them, but goes above and beyond that - he throws cheap shot punches at them, just ask Samaki.
> 
> And I do like Shaq, Phil, and other Lakers.


Despite what girzzo is saying Kobe didn't punch Samaki because he wasn't pulling his weight. If Samaki was a all-star Kobe still would of done it. Is Elton Brand a prima-donna because he fought Obinna Okezie?

For someone that claims to have played organized ball you should know that fights among teamates are very common. You don't hear it that much because the press doesn't get ahold of it.


----------



## Tenshi25

I can't believe there are almost 100 posts with the wildest controversy about if Kobe is faking an injury or not when neither of us has absolutely no way of knowing if he's actually doing it or not. I mean, as far as I know this guy could be the biggest faker in the history of the league or he could be playing with a bigger pain any of us have ever felt, how can I know? there's no way to know, only Kobe knows how he actually feels.


----------



## IV

Kobe Bryant != Drama Queen.

The only queens in the NBA play in Sacramento.

Kobe Bryant = The best player in the NBA.:yes:


----------



## rynobot

All Kobe and T-Mac Threads have been mergered.


----------



## Tenshi25

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> All Kobe and T-Mac Threads have been mergered.


God bless you rynobot, you saved my mental health. :yes:


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

> Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!
> 
> 
> Despite what girzzo is saying Kobe didn't punch Samaki because he wasn't pulling his weight. If Samaki was a all-star Kobe still would of done it. Is Elton Brand a prima-donna because he fought Obinna Okezie?
> 
> For someone that claims to have played organized ball you should know that fights among teamates are very common. You don't hear it that much because the press doesn't get ahold of it.


You're right. 
fights happen all the time... however they shouldn't be started by a team captain, or leader, he should be the one pulling teammates together... thats just IMO


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> You're right.
> fights happen all the time... however they shouldn't be started by a team captain, or leader, he should be the one pulling teammates together... thats just IMO


Did you feel the same way when MJ knocked out Steve Kerr in practice?


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*WOW!!!*

Boy, did this Post ever lose its original basis quickly? Typical when you try to discuss Kobe; not sure about TMac.

Well, Clip ... great post anyway. Too bad passions got in the way of open discussions. So much so that even the title of your post was lost.


----------



## Pinball

*Re: WOW!!!*



> Originally posted by <b>Dynasty Raider</b>!
> Boy, did this Post ever lose its original basis quickly? Typical when you try to discuss Kobe; not sure about TMac.
> 
> Well, Clip ... great post anyway. Too bad passions got in the way of open discussions. So much so that even the title of your post was lost.


Try to discuss Kobe? I don't know about you but I don't find titles like "Kobe=Drama Queen" to be very objective. There is no objective analysis in a thread like that. You knew damn well that nothing good was going to come out of that.


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Did you feel the same way when MJ knocked out Steve Kerr in practice?


WHO CARES ABOUT MJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MJ. I AM TALKING ABOUT KOBE - AND WHY SO MANY PEOPLE DON'T LIKE HIM. PERIOD.

I DONT CARE ABOUT MJ!!!!!!:upset:


----------



## nicholai

*Re: Can anybody answer the question: Who is better Kobe or McGrady?*



> Originally posted by <b>THA DOCTA</b>!
> McGrady is obiviously more athletic then Kobe


it's not that obvious to me. please explain.


thread merged


----------



## jazzy1

Kobe and Tmac I think are athletic equals. Tmac I think is longer Kobe I think is a little more flexible, both have great hops. 

Kobe is still the better player, better focus and intensity. Kobe better at ball handling and better at creating his shot off the bounce. Tmac a more effortless stroke from three but Kobe's gaining there. And Kobe better defensively.


----------



## rynobot

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Kobe and Tmac I think are athletic equals. Tmac I think is longer Kobe I think is a little more flexible, both have great hops.
> 
> Kobe is still the better player, better focus and intensity. Kobe better at ball handling and better at creating his shot off the bounce. Tmac a more effortless stroke from three but Kobe's gaining there. And Kobe better defensively.


Kobe actually has a higher 3-pt % than T-Mac this season.


----------



## IV

*At the moment*

Go to NBA.com and compare stats. Kobe v Tmac

Kobe has better numbers in every category.

ppg, rpg, apg, spg, bpg, fg%, ft%, 3fg%, min all in favor of Kobe.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Kobe and Tmac I think are athletic equals. Tmac I think is longer Kobe I think is a little more flexible, both have great hops.
> 
> Kobe is still the better player, better focus and intensity. Kobe better at ball handling and better at creating his shot off the bounce. Tmac a more effortless stroke from three but Kobe's gaining there. And Kobe better defensively.


They have both become very good 3pt shooters, especially Kobe. Tmac is better when he's open and shooting from a stationary position. Kobe is better at creating his own shot from beyond the arc. For him it has become just a deep jumpshot.


----------



## jazzy1

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> They have both become very good 3pt shooters, especially Kobe. Tmac is better when he's open and shooting from a stationary position. Kobe is better at creating his own shot from beyond the arc. For him it has become just a deep jumpshot.


I totally agree here Pin, Kobe has made it a deep jump shot.


----------



## <<<D>>>

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> Kobe Bryant != Drama Queen.
> The only queens in the NBA play in Sacramento.


I knew you wouldn't forget about that IV.....:laugh:


----------



## Damian Necronamous

Well, Kobe now only trails McGrady by 0.2ppg to be the NBA's Scoring Leader.

Kobe Bryant
PPG 30.4 
RPG 7.1 
APG 6.4 
SPG 2.17 
BPG .92 
FG% .460 
FT% .834 
3P% .390 
MPG 41.7 

Tracy McGrady
PPG 30.6 
RPG 6.8 
APG 5.1 
SPG 1.63 
BPG .80 
FG% .451 
FT% .797 
3P% .368 
MPG 39.9 

Kobe leads in every category, except for points.


----------



## shobe42

*Does anyone else notice?*

That the old argument was is TMac better or is Kobe better?

Now it is is TMac close or is Kobe way better.


----------



## IV

*Re: Does anyone else notice?*



> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> That the old argument was is TMac better or is Kobe better?
> 
> Now it is is TMac close or is Kobe way better.


Kobe's way better


----------



## shobe42

*Re: Re: Does anyone else notice?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe's way better


Agreed


----------



## Pinball

*Re: Re: Does anyone else notice?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe's way better


I'll go in the middle and say Kobe is just better. The gap between them is small but it does exist.


----------



## The Krakken

Like I said, I'll be glad when Tmac joins DUncan next year, and puts this "accomplishments" nonsense to rest. And all of you who are sticking up for Kobe in spite of shq, had better not have ANYTHING to say about Tmac "only getting his ring because Duncan is there".....


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> Like I said, I'll be glad when Tmac joins DUncan next year, and puts this "accomplishments" nonsense to rest. And all of you who are sticking up for Kobe in spite of shq, had better not have ANYTHING to say about Tmac "only getting his ring because Duncan is there".....


Accomplishments have everything to do with judging a players greatness. Not only the rings but Kobe is more accomplished in other areas. More allstars, statistically over a career, length of reckognition, awards. 

Can't say that no one will have "Duncan comments" about Tmac if he ever wins a title with him because that's all you hear about Kobe's rings. But I wont.


----------



## Lakers_32_4ever

forget that kobe is a better defender, better teammate, better ballhandler, better passer, more athletic, way more dedicated, and more hardworking.

but let's settle the more clutch issue now.

a survey of nba gms showed that most would pick him to hit a game winning shot, even more than reggie miller. tmac was not even voted for. Kobe had 40% or more votes. I think these guys know their stuff.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>Lakers_32_4ever</b>!
> forget that kobe is a better defender, better teammate, better ballhandler, better passer, more athletic, way more dedicated, and more hardworking.
> 
> but let's settle the more clutch issue now.
> 
> a survey of nba gms showed that most would pick him to hit a game winning shot, even more than reggie miller. tmac was not even voted for. Kobe had 40% or more votes. I think these guys know their stuff.


Better defender-yes
Better teammate-debatable
Better ballhandler-maybe but Kobe does turn the ball over alot
Better passer-debatable
More athletic-debatable
More dedicated and hardworking-IMO yes

So I think Kobe is a little better. As far as being clutch I've seen Kobe make big shots and I've seen him miss big shots. I've also seen TMac make some big shots too. I think what people are basing this on is how many championships Kobe has won and that isn't completely fair to a guy like TMac.


----------



## jazzy1

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Better defender-yes
> Better teammate-debatable
> Better ballhandler-maybe but Kobe does turn the ball over alot
> Better passer-debatable
> More athletic-debatable
> More dedicated and hardworking-IMO yes
> 
> So I think Kobe is a little better. As far as being clutch I've seen Kobe make big shots and I've seen him miss big shots. I've also seen TMac make some big shots too. I think what people are basing this on is how many championships Kobe has won and that isn't completely fair to a guy like TMac.


I disagree with the clutch shooting thing Kobe in the playoffs almost always comes through I mean every instance I can think of the last three years he's made the plays except once in game 2 against the spurs he turned the ball over there but thats about it. TMac never makes the clutch plays at the end because he's not the ball handler Kobe is the defense can anticpate his blow by easier thus altering his shots or stealing the ball. ie Baron davis. Kobe mean while uses more spin dribbles and cross overs to get free. Harder to anticipate where he's going to pull up.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> I disagree with the clutch shooting thing Kobe in the playoffs almost always comes through I mean every instance I can think of the last three years he's made the plays except once in game 2 against the spurs he turned the ball over there but thats about it. TMac never makes the clutch plays at the end because he's not the ball handler Kobe is the defense can anticpate his blow by easier thus altering his shots or stealing the ball. ie Baron davis. Kobe mean while uses more spin dribbles and cross overs to get free. Harder to anticipate where he's going to pull up.


Don't forget the miss at the end of Game 4 or 5 against Sac.


----------



## Raptor Fan 42

5.


Robert Horry hit the game-winner in 4.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Lakers_32_4ever</b>!
> forget that kobe is a
> better defender,
> better teammate,
> better ballhandler,
> better passer,
> more athletic,
> way more dedicated,
> and more hardworking.
> 
> but let's settle the more clutch issue now.


better defender - yes and no - neither guy defends all the time. The last two years I would have said Tmac, but with the scoring load he is carrying this year he looks like he is relaxing more on defense, unless someone pisses him off. As far as defensive ability, i'd say they are about equal, Kobe with more foot speed but Tmac has more length.

better teammate - no - Kobe is known for being somewhat distant from his teammates. I don't see how that would make him a better teammate. Tmac has an excellent relationship with everyone on the team.

better ballhandler - no - Kobe has a higher career TO rate than Tmac by .5 TO/G, which is a lot of turnovers over the course of a season. I will say Kobe has better dribble moves, but Tmac's length allows him to not need those moves a lot of times. Plus Tmac is normally Orlando's primary ball-handler all season, whereas Kobe somewhat splits those resposibilites

better passer - not better - both a pretty good passers. Don't see how you could say Kobe is better.

more athletic - no - Kobe may be a little quicker than Tmac, but again Tmac has a length advantage, so it evens out. Tmac is every bit as athletic as Kobe and a good 2-3 inches taller.. so I would say Tmac is more athletic

way more dedicated - maybe a bit - but not much. Tmac has gained significant strength and muscle mass since he came into the league. Not to mention developing a tremendous outside shot... more intensity, probably, but not more dedicated.

clutch - Kobe is more clutch, but he has also had probably 5 times the number of "clutch" attempts as Tmac. Being the main and only option, Tmac usually has to pass on the "clutch" shots because of double or triple teams..

IMO, these two guys are on equal planes. Both have somewhat better abilities in certain aspects than the other. Kobe's greatest asset is Shaquille O'neal.


----------



## shobe42

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> better defender - yes and no - neither guy defends all the time. The last two years I would have said Tmac, but with the scoring load he is carrying this year he looks like he is relaxing more on defense, unless someone pisses him off. As far as defensive ability, i'd say they are about equal, Kobe with more foot speed but Tmac has more length.
> 
> better teammate - no - Kobe is known for being somewhat distant from his teammates. I don't see how that would make him a better teammate. Tmac has an excellent relationship with everyone on the team.
> 
> better ballhandler - no - Kobe has a higher career TO rate than Tmac by .5 TO/G, which is a lot of turnovers over the course of a season. I will say Kobe has better dribble moves, but Tmac's length allows him to not need those moves a lot of times. Plus Tmac is normally Orlando's primary ball-handler all season, whereas Kobe somewhat splits those resposibilites
> 
> better passer - not better - both a pretty good passers. Don't see how you could say Kobe is better.
> 
> more athletic - no - Kobe may be a little quicker than Tmac, but again Tmac has a length advantage, so it evens out. Tmac is every bit as athletic as Kobe and a good 2-3 inches taller.. so I would say Tmac is more athletic
> 
> way more dedicated - maybe a bit - but not much. Tmac has gained significant strength and muscle mass since he came into the league. Not to mention developing a tremendous outside shot... more intensity, probably, but not more dedicated.
> 
> clutch - Kobe is more clutch, but he has also had probably 5 times the number of "clutch" attempts as Tmac. Being the main and only option, Tmac usually has to pass on the "clutch" shots because of double or triple teams..
> 
> IMO, these two guys are on equal planes. Both have somewhat better abilities in certain aspects than the other. Kobe's greatest asset is Shaquille O'neal.


Some people just never give up.


----------



## Idunkonyou

Why does it always have to be vs.? IMO both are equally talented and if I had to choose one, I would choose either. McGrady and Kobe are going to rule the NBA for years and years to come. I just hope that they can some how form a great rivalry much like Bird and Magic. McGrady still needs some more talent around him but with the recent trade the Magic just pulled off, his team is getting there. Once Shaq retires, the Lakers can use the cap space to sign some talent giving Kobe a chance to make it to the finals with out Shaq. 

We are in for a hell of a ride the next 10+ years. :yes: :grinning:


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> 
> 
> Some people just never give up.


It is so ignorant to say Kobe is WAY better.


----------



## thegza

Kobe Bryant isn't way better, that's just a flat out lie. If he was so much better, then we wouldn't even dare debate who's the better out of the two. Come on Laker fans, let's be honest now. Our boy Kobe is the better out of the two, but he isn't way better. Bryant leads McGrady in every stat category except for the points in which T-Mac has an advantage by 0.2 points per game for the Scoring Tittle. Kobe is the better out of the two, for now but that can all change if the big fella starts to demand more control over the team and wants more playing time and shots for him. Bryant is just leading the team for now and putting the Lakers on his back, but it all depends of Shaq will allow him to do that and I'm not too sure about that.

McGrady is not the complete player Kobe is and you can just tell by the stats. Also, when they did ask the NBA GM's they did choose Bryant to take the final shot and therefore that obviously means he has the clutchness. Kobe has the motivation, passion and determination that no other player besides Jordan has right now in the league. Bryant is the best player in the league right now. :yes:


----------



## Pinball

What do Kobe fans want people to say? That Kobe is way better because he isn't. Again there are biases in both parties but the Kobe supporters are going overboard here. It isn't like all the TMac fans come here after every game and say Tmac did this and TMac did that. Hell most Tmac fans don't even hate Kobe so I can't understand why so many of you hate TMac. Personally, I think Kobe is better right now but not by much. TMac is equal to Kobe in terms of talent but is lacking in a few areas and Kobe has been hotter as of late. However, we're not comparing Kobe to Ron Mercer here. Recognize the fact that TMac is a top 5 player.


----------



## JNice

There is no doubt Kobe is the best player right now, today. But most people would say that because of the recent scoring run he has been on. Personally I think he used the beginning of this season to pump up his stats, but that is my personal opinion.

I would not doubt if we see Tmac try to go on the type of streak Kobe has been on. Tmac is pissed off and he plays his best when he is pissed. 

I like the fact that Tmac is also a year younger in age and experience. He is actually ahead statistically in pretty much every category as Kobe at the same point in their careers (yes Kobe lovers, except for the rings).

It would be nice if we could take these two and put them on different teams with the rest of the players clones of the Cavs for each one, and then see what happens. At least this could be settled somewhat.

It is fun to watch. Kobe, Tmac, and KG are playing whole different plateaus than the rest of the league. We should all just hope they can be as intriguing as Magic, Larry, and MJ.


----------



## couchtomato

Kobe did not use the beginning of the season to "pump up his stats." His stats were dictated by his role - playmaker. His job was to go in there and get everyone else going - that means he gets assists. And without Shaq, the Lakers were a pathetic rebounding team. Frankly it's ridiculous that Kobe was leading the Lakers in rebounds without Shaq. Thus the reason Samaki was his whipping boy in the beginning of the season for not being agressive. I expect to see his assist levels return once he returns to the playmaker mode. Although I've been impressed with his theivery lately - 5 steals against the Blazers.

Rather than see both Kobe and T-Mac with scrub teams to get a real comparison - I'd like to see them both on winning teams and facing each other at the highest level. The reason Magic/Bird became so closely linked was they played each other at the highest level in college and the NBA. 

I'm watching the Orlando/Nets game right now and I saw a lot of the one the other night. The trade really looks good for Orlando so they are on their way. It will be interesting to see what they do in the off season. They need to get out from under that Grant Hill contract some how some way.


----------



## Chops

McGrady just had an awesome game.

46 points, 13 assists, 10 rebounds, 2 blocks


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> McGrady just had an awesome game.
> 
> 46 points, 13 assists, 10 rebounds, 2 blocks


Looks like TMac is back after struggling for a couple of games. I hope he and Kobe establish themselves as the two best players in the game because I'm sick of people automatically giving it (that distinction) to the big guys just because they're big.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> McGrady just had an awesome game.
> 
> 46 points, 13 assists, 10 rebounds, 2 blocks


It just doesnt get any better than that. And he shot well over 50% I believe.

He would have had well over 50 had Byron Scott not told them to double-team him before he even caught the ball, even in the backcourt with most of the 4th quarter to go.

Scary thing is, he makes it look so damned easy.


----------



## jazzy1

Yeah TMac is coming on he was spectacular tonight almost as impressive as Kobe's 52 8 and 7 game against Houston. 

Tmac is terrific he had it all working. If he can play at this level for another 12-15 games straight the debate will get even more intense. Suddenly TMac has thrown his name back into the MVP running. This is good stuff for the NBA.


----------



## Idunkonyou

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Looks like TMac is back after struggling for a couple of games. I hope he and Kobe establish themselves as the two best players in the game because I'm sick of people automatically giving it (that distinction) to the big guys just because they're big.


McGrady hasn't been struggling. His February stats are probably the best in the league for that month overall. Check this out.

In 9 games for February:

36 points, 8.3 rebounds, 6 assists, 1.3 steals, 1 block, 44% FG, 36% 3P and 80% FT. Now how can you say that is struggling?


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Yeah TMac is coming on he was spectacular tonight almost as impressive as Kobe's 52 8 and 7 game against Houston.


Almost? Son, you done gone crazy.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> 
> 
> McGrady hasn't been struggling. His February stats are probably the best in the league for that month overall. Check this out.
> 
> In 9 games for February:
> 
> 36 points, 8.3 rebounds, 6 assists, 1.3 steals, 1 block, 44% FG, 36% 3P and 80% FT. Now how can you say that is struggling?


Yeah but the 7 before the last 2 games were not quite as good. His scoring was down and he was shooting a very low %. But he's been awesome in his last 2 games.


----------



## Idunkonyou

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah but the 7 before the last 2 games were not quite as good. His scoring was down and he was shooting a very low %. But he's been awesome in his last 2 games.


Again what are you talking about? Look at McGrady's average for February. Speaks for itself.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> 
> 
> Again what are you talking about?


I don't know.:clown:


----------



## hogey11

> Yeah TMac is coming on he was spectacular tonight almost as impressive as Kobe's 52 8 and 7 game against Houston.


What?!?

Are you serious? Tmac had 46, 10 and 13 while Kobe had 52, 8 and 7. 

Points = -6 Rebounds= +2 Assists= +6


TMac had just as many more assists as Kobe had more points!!!!

Throw in the fact that TMac scored the final 10 points of the game (for both sides) and you have probably his best game of the season. Incredible offensive display, Setting up teammates, Rebounding, and Blocking. He shot 59% from the field, 38% from behind the arc, and 85% from the Free Throw line. 

Now PLEASE explain how this is *almost* as good as Kobe's game against the rockets????


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>hogey11</b>!
> 
> 
> What?!?
> 
> Are you serious? Tmac had 46, 10 and 13 while Kobe had 52, 8 and 7.
> 
> Points = -6 Rebounds= +2 Assists= +6
> 
> 
> TMac had just as many more assists as Kobe had more points!!!!
> 
> Throw in the fact that TMac scored the final 10 points of the game (for both sides) and you have probably his best game of the season. Incredible offensive display, Setting up teammates, Rebounding, and Blocking. He shot 59% from the field, 38% from behind the arc, and 85% from the Free Throw line.
> 
> Now PLEASE explain how this is *almost* as good as Kobe's game against the rockets????


Also remember that Kobe did it in 2 OTs. Great game but TMac had less time to do it than Kobe.


----------



## toiletscrubber

This is what I think is the whole arguement of Kobe and T-Mac who's better.

They both are argubly the best player in the league. But each player has a different skill that they excel at. Basketball is a team sport, how good a player is has a lot to do with the players that he plays around, his willingness to share the basketball, and the kind of coach he has. 

If you put Kobe or T-Mac in a starting line up with Mark Madsen, Alton Ford, Dan Langhi, and Mike Wilks (I just pick couple 12th mans in the league) The chances are Kobe or T-Mac will average around 40 ppg.

If you put one of them in a line up that has Shaq, Duncan, KG, and Marbury. The chances are they will average no more than 20ppg. 

This is a team sport, just like soccer, you can't say Pele and Maradonna is better, just like hockey, you can say Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux is better. just like baseball, you can't say Randy Johnson or Kurt Schiling is better.

Plus, no one can really judge a player with no biase, you either like T-Mac or Kobe, you can't be totally neutral and analyze every part of their game and make a judgment that's totally neutral. 

The only way you can figure out who is better is to put them with the exact same team mates, and play the exact same opponents every game, and maybe by doing that, you can see who can make their team a better one.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>toiletscrubber</b>!
> This is what I think is the whole arguement of Kobe and T-Mac who's better.
> 
> They both are argubly the best player in the league. But each player has a different skill that they excel at. Basketball is a team sport, how good a player is has a lot to do with the players that he plays around, his willingness to share the basketball, and the kind of coach he has.
> 
> If you put Kobe or T-Mac in a starting line up with Mark Madsen, Alton Ford, Dan Langhi, and Mike Wilks (I just pick couple 12th mans in the league) The chances are Kobe or T-Mac will average around 40 ppg.
> 
> If you put one of them in a line up that has Shaq, Duncan, KG, and Marbury. The chances are they will average no more than 20ppg.
> 
> This is a team sport, just like soccer, you can't say Pele and Maradonna is better, just like hockey, you can say Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux is better. just like baseball, you can't say Randy Johnson or Kurt Schiling is better.
> 
> Plus, no one can really judge a player with no biase, you either like T-Mac or Kobe, you can't be totally neutral and analyze every part of their game and make a judgment that's totally neutral.
> 
> The only way you can figure out who is better is to put them with the exact same team mates, and play the exact same opponents every game, and maybe by doing that, you can see who can make their team a better one.


You have good intentions but this post will not end this eternal debate. I think this thread is going to be around well into the Spring.


----------



## Showtyme

Randy Johnson is better.  

Kobe is better, too. T-Mac is much more versatile, IMO, and more athletic, and he gives a maximum effort. But Kobe is outperforming him, and it's not because of Shaq. Not anymore.

If I were to take one player to start a team, I'd take T-Mac. Even with Kobe having all the rings, even with Kobe looking to take Jordan's records, etc. Why? Because T-Mac is a great leader, a great player, and a more multi-dimensional player, making him more useful. There are probably teams that Kobe would not fit in on... Utah Jazz, Miami Heat, Portland TrailBlazers, Detroit Pistons to name a few. He'd still be a great player, sure, but he wouldn't totally fit in. But I could see Tracy McGrady fitting in almost perfectly on any team in the league.

That having been said, Kobe is BEING better on the court today, on the teams that they are on, which is all we can do to measure.


----------



## MemphisX

> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> If I were to take one player to start a team, I'd take T-Mac. Even with Kobe having all the rings, even with Kobe looking to take Jordan's records, etc. Why? Because T-Mac is a great leader, a great player, and a more multi-dimensional player, making him more useful.


TMac hasn't lead the Magic anywhere. He is about to lead them to the lottery. Keep the argument to the intangibles like athleticism and versatility. Kobe has three titles regardless of whoelse is on the team he was a MAJOR part of those three titles. Anything else(if TMac was a Laker, etc.) is just speculation.

Stats are about equal. Titles set them apart.


----------



## IV

*The stats generally favor Kobe (all but one)*

Kobe 

ppg 30.8
apg 6.3
rpg 7
spg 2.24
bpg .93
double-doubles 20
triple-doubles 5
FG% 46%
3FG% 39%
FT% 83%

Mac 

ppg 31.4
apg 5.2
rpg 6.8
spg 1.6
bpg .82
double-doubles 12
triple-doubles 1
FG% 46%
3FG% 37%
FT% 80%

The funny thing is how Tmac fans call him more versatile, but the versatility stats like Triple double and Double doubles favor Kobe overwhelmingly.


----------



## jazzy1

> Originally posted by <b>hogey11</b>!
> 
> 
> What?!?
> 
> Are you serious? Tmac had 46, 10 and 13 while Kobe had 52, 8 and 7.
> 
> Points = -6 Rebounds= +2 Assists= +6
> 
> 
> TMac had just as many more assists as Kobe had more points!!!!
> 
> Throw in the fact that TMac scored the final 10 points of the game (for both sides) and you have probably his best game of the season. Incredible offensive display, Setting up teammates, Rebounding, and Blocking. He shot 59% from the field, 38% from behind the arc, and 85% from the Free Throw line.
> 
> Now PLEASE explain how this is *almost* as good as Kobe's game against the rockets????



Kobe was going up against a team with a huge presence in the middle being Yao Ming so part of his game was limited in some aspects because Yao is a shot blocker and Kobe couldn't easily finish around the basket. TMac was scoring playing against a team that has NO interior presence at all. So once he beats his man there was a clear lane. Plus he was being guarded in most part by the Nets pf in Martin who with Jefferson just got lit up by the 40 yr old MJ for 43 should tell you something about their defense guarding great wing players. 

Yao or Collins umm lets see oh I see you'll take Collins. 

Who are better shooters

Garrrity
Giricek
Armstrong
Kemp
Gooden

or
Fox
Fisher
Horry
Rush
George

Now factor out the stats who has better shooters, which makes getting assists much easier when they're open. 

Kobe's 52 pt game was better against an inside presence with suspect support players as scorers and shooters. ON A BAD KNEE, unless he was faking which you'll probably say.


----------



## Showtime84'

According to Kobe , he hasn't been a 100% "Healthy" since freakin high school.


----------



## IV

I dont doubt that


----------



## RangerC

*Re: The stats generally favor Kobe (all but one)*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> Kobe
> 
> ppg 30.8
> apg  6.3
> rpg 7
> spg 2.24
> bpg .93
> double-doubles 20
> triple-doubles 5
> FG% 46%
> 3FG% 39%
> FT% 83%
> 
> Mac
> 
> ppg 31.4
> apg 5.2
> rpg 6.8
> spg 1.6
> bpg .82
> double-doubles 12
> triple-doubles 1
> FG% 46%
> 3FG% 37%
> FT% 80%
> 
> The funny thing is how Tmac fans call him more versatile, but the versatility stats like Triple double and Double doubles favor Kobe overwhelmingly.


I've already said that I favor Kobe over McGrady - but it's funny how 2 statistical categories that favor McGrady keep getting left out by Kobe apologists.

Turnovers per game - Bryant 3.7, McGrady 2.4 
AST/TO Ratio - Bryant 1.67, McGrady 2.17


----------



## grizzoistight

*those arent that important*

becuz kobe always has the ball in his hands and is asked to make more plays


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> TMac hasn't lead the Magic anywhere. He is about to lead them to the lottery. Keep the argument to the intangibles like athleticism and versatility. Kobe has three titles regardless of whoelse is on the team he was a MAJOR part of those three titles. Anything else(if TMac was a Laker, etc.) is just speculation.
> 
> Stats are about equal. Titles set them apart.



Kobe and the Lakers were headed straight for the lottery until Shaq came back.


----------



## JNice

*Re: those arent that important*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> becuz kobe always has the ball in his hands and is asked to make more plays



Tmac is the primary ball-handler and ONLY playmaker on Orlando.


----------



## Pinball

*Re: those arent that important*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> those aren't that important


So why are silly things like Slam Dunk Contest Cahmpionships relevant then?


----------



## Tom

KO-Me is all you need to know


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> KO-Me is all you need to know


He's really always been that way but he still has 3 titles to his credit. There are alot of selfish players who have rings so Kobe isn't an anomaly or anything.


----------



## Tom

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> He's really always been that way but he still has 3 titles to his credit. There are alot of selfish players who have rings so Kobe isn't an anomaly or anything.


True...he is just easy to dislike. i think he has more aloofness than a jordan did...he doesn't seem as approachable.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> 
> 
> True...he is just easy to dislike. i think he has more aloofness than a jordan did...he doesn't seem as approachable.


You want to talk about aloofness look at the guy on your avatar. He's off in his own little world.


----------



## grizzoistight

*tmac leads the league in shot attempts*

per 48 minutes so hes a little bit more selfish than kobe 
thanks


----------



## IV

*Correction*



> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Kobe and the Lakers were headed straight for the lottery until Shaq came back.


Kobe and the Lakers were headed straight for the lottery until they switched the offense from the triangle to "Kobe time"


----------



## JNice

*Re: Correction*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe and the Lakers were headed straight for the lottery until they switched the offense from the triangle to "Kobe time"


That is ignorance. Shaq creates opportunities for every single guy on that team. The offense looked an awful lot like "Kobe Time" when Shaq wasn't there, and that didn't lead to much success.


----------



## grizzoistight

*dee bo*

dont complain about not havin any talent with tmac..
whens the last time 3 guys on the lakers have all scored 20+??
yea only in their 3rd game together the magic got it.. 
so i dont want to hear that excuse when yall got eliminated early


----------



## JNice

*Re: dee bo*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> dont complain about not havin any talent with tmac..
> whens the last time 3 guys on the lakers have all scored 20+??
> yea only in their 3rd game together the magic got it..
> so i dont want to hear that excuse when yall got eliminated early



Gimme a break, they are only rookies. Gooden is only 21. They've both already performed WAY above expectations, but it would be ignorant to expect this kind of play for the entire season, and also for two rookies in the playoffs.

Anyway, I'd rather Orlando not even make the playoffs so they can get a good draft.


----------



## IV

*Re: Re: Correction*



> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> That is ignorance. Shaq creates opportunities for every single guy on that team. The offense looked an awful lot like "Kobe Time" when Shaq wasn't there, and that didn't lead to much success.


I thought kobe time was far from ignorant. Lack of success? I thought 11-2 was pretty good but I guess your right they could have gone 13-0.


----------



## JNice

*Re: Re: Re: Correction*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I thought kobe time was far from ignorant. Lack of success? I thought 11-2 was pretty good but I guess your right they could have gone 13-0.


Never gonna admit the effect that Shaq has on the game are you...


----------



## grizzoistight

*ill admit that he helps a lot*

but i get sick of listening to people say kg doenst have help..
when hes got plenty of guys 
and now tmacs got a great cast around him ..
its time for them to put up or shut up


----------



## IV

You're lost man

the effect of Shaq has been admitted by myself plenty times. To judge Kobe for a 3-9 without Shaq is as pointless as saying Mcnabb is not worth a starting job in Philly because they went 5-1 without him. You must have forgotten the lakers struggled even when Shaq came back. The team was out of snyc. effect of Shaq? How about the effect of Kobe? Did you notice that when Kobe became the player of the month that was the turn around point in LA's season? He undoubtably will be the player of the month again in February and LA has continued to rise in the standings. I guess you attribute the wins to Shaq. Of course you would, you are anti Kobe. Is Shaq effective? sure. But Kobe is the man, and you not admitting that is poorly sited.


----------



## JNice

*Re: ill admit that he helps a lot*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> but i get sick of listening to people say kg doenst have help..
> when hes got plenty of guys
> and now tmacs got a great cast around him ..
> its time for them to put up or shut up


I would not say KG has "plenty" of guys. He has Wally, but he was injured a lot of this year. And Terrel Brandon has been gone forever. KG's supporting cast is pretty weak, but not anywhere near as weak as Tmacs.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> You're lost man
> 
> the effect of Shaq has been admitted by myself plenty times. To judge Kobe for a 3-9 without Shaq is as pointless as saying Mcnabb is not worth a starting job in Philly because they went 5-1 without him. You must have forgotten the lakers struggled even when Shaq came back. The team was out of snyc. effect of Shaq? How about the effect of Kobe? Did you notice that when Kobe became the player of the month that was the turn around point in LA's season? He undoubtably will be the player of the month again in February and LA has continued to rise in the standings. I guess you attribute the wins to Shaq. Of course you would, you are anti Kobe. Is Shaq effective? sure. But Kobe is the man, and you not admitting that is poorly sited.


I'm not lost, I know exactly where I am. It is no coincidence that the team started winning not necessarily when Shaq got back, but once he got his legs back under him. Kobe going 3-9 is not pointless, Tmac has never gone 3-9 the the group of scrubs he has been playing with.

And I am not anti-Kobe, I am anti-Kobe-is-God, because he isnt. I believe myself that Kobe is at the very top of the NBA, but I also believe that Tmac is right there standing on top with him. Most of the argument for Kobe over Tmac is the championships and the accolades, of which almost all of them are by-products of playing besides the most dominating basketball player on Earth and playing in one of the most historied markets in basketball. 

Tmac gets no credit for being right there with Kobe because he hasnt achieved the same success.. but it is a lot harder to win when you have Andrew DeClerq, Steven Hunter, Pat Burke, or Shawn Kemp as your starting center, versus Shaquille O'neal.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not lost, I know exactly where I am. It is no coincidence that the team started winning not necessarily when Shaq got back, but once he got his legs back under him. Kobe going 3-9 is not pointless, Tmac has never gone 3-9 the the group of scrubs he has been playing with.


Shaq has yet to get his legs back under him, and Tmac has nothing to do with what your talking about. Kobe has been leading the lakers since late december they went from the bottomto 7 and are sitll climbing. 



> And I am not anti-Kobe, I am anti-Kobe-is-God, because he isnt.


I have never refered to Kobe as God. That's blashphemy. You should site Heatlunatic for that one, or the users formerly known as TMacisgod.



> I believe myself that Kobe is at the very top of the NBA, but I also believe that Tmac is right there standing on top with him. Most of the argument for Kobe over Tmac is the championships and the accolades, of which almost all of them are by-products of playing besides the most dominating basketball player on Earth and playing in one of the most historied markets in basketball.


all opinion. Another idiot might argue Shaq's success if due to Kobe;s performance. A realist says, they need each other equally. playing with another great player and winning should question whether you would win otherwise. 



> Tmac gets no credit for being right there with Kobe because he hasnt achieved the same success.. but it is a lot harder to win when you have Andrew DeClerq, Steven Hunter, Pat Burke, or Shawn Kemp as your starting center, versus Shaquille O'neal.


IMO, Tmac is a step behind Kobe. dotn let this anger you, its just my opinion. Tmac lack qualities that are able to be learned. Kobe is clutch, he's got that competitive spirit that not many players possess. Its not a knock on Tmac, Kobe is just a rare type of player.


----------



## 33

I believe T-Mac has that same competetive spirit. But, this is a team game and as long as you are surrounded by a cast of players who are subpar, you will not get credit for what you may deserve. T-Mac is of the same mold that Kobe is from. Once the player around him get better, he will get be more recognizable, at least in the sense of being on top of the NBA.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> I believe T-Mac has that same competetive spirit. But, this is a team game and as long as you are surrounded by a cast of players who are subpar, you will not get credit for what you may deserve.


Tmac will get his credit when he wins, until then stop making excuses for his failures.



> T-Mac is of the same mold that Kobe is from.


Tmac is not of the same mold. Kobe has always been a winner. From National high school player of the year to current 3 time defending NBA champion. Kobe has been an allstar since his second season in the NBA. TMac has just recently acheived superstar status while Kobe has been a superstar his whole life.


----------



## Obe1Kobe

:topic: 
I'm a playah:grinning: . I just realized my status moved up from rookie. O.K. now that that's over, I shall move on.
See ya 'round the boards!


----------



## IV

Who's watching the Orl vs. NY game?

Sean Elliot said McGrady is doing everything. He said that after an offensive possession for Orlando. Tmac is doing everything offensively, but where's the defense? So many of yall post that he is a better defender than Kobe. I can't tell. Did you see the last two NY possessions? Allan houston crossed him over and drove past him into the paint pump faked and hit a layup on him, then on the final play of regulation Houston blows right by him and Drew Gooden bails Tracy out for the blocked shot. How do you get taken to the hole by Allan Houston twice in the clutch?
Allan Houston?

Tracy is so explosive on offense no doubt, but those who credit his defense have got to be kidding me.:nonono:


----------



## grizzoistight

*i agree*

this team is perfect for tmac
he has 3 great shooters out there
so everytime they double he can just kick it to them
he should have 20 assits a game..
i just like the fact how houston and sprewell have been lighting him up.. he was lucky that gooden blocked that shot to save his ***..
oh well tmac just turned it over with the game on the line what a suprise?


----------



## IV

He just missed a layup..... doing too much!


----------



## grizzoistight

*yea hes having another tmac type of shooting night*

10 - 26 
0 for 6 from three
0 for 5 in ot
how do u spell clutch??


----------



## IV

*Clutch & Defense sets them apart*

almost turned it over, got it back, he misses another layup..... Gooden with the put back.

Tmac misses the open jumper.

0-5 in overtime!

Instead of getting Tmac help, what orlando really needs is a clutch performer.


----------



## grizzoistight

*IV*

the reason tmac is missing all these shots and turning it over is becuz he has no supporting cast (SARCASM)
i mean giricek is only 8 - 16 20 points 8 boards
gooden had a bad night 9 -16 20 points 18 boards
garrity was miserable 7 -16 19 points

i wish he had some guys on his team who knew how to play 
aww poor tmac


----------



## IV

Orlando really needs a guy who can step up and win close games. Tonight was the same scenario as last years playoffs. The Magic were in good position to win each game in that series. The difference was the clutch play of one player not named Tmac.


----------



## JNice

*Re: Clutch & Defense sets them apart*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> almost turned it over, got it back, he misses another layup..... Gooden with the put back.
> 
> Tmac misses the open jumper.
> 
> 0-5 in overtime!
> 
> Instead of getting Tmac help, what orlando really needs is a clutch performer.


Yeah, and LA looks real good down 20 to the Sonics right now. 

One thing that amazes me... Tmac doesnt get any respect from the refs. He should have been shooting free throws multiple times in OT and didnt.


----------



## Vivor

I love how you guys pick and chose the games you wish to comment on. Care to comment on the NJ and Dallas games this past week and how T-Mac was making all the right plays down the stretch or do you want to start on how Kobe is leading his team tonight to a win over the Sonics.


----------



## grizzoistight

*tmac does too many finger rolls and*

pull up threes he could have attacked the rim and dunked on people so many times tonight
but instead he threw it up soft.. 
take it strong tmac your a big guy.. 
14 free throws is gettin no respect??


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Vivor</b>!
> I love how you guys pick and chose the games you wish to comment on. Care to comment on the NJ and Dallas games this past week and how T-Mac was making all the right plays down the stretch or do you want to start on how Kobe is leading his team tonight to a win over the Sonics.


I show him some luv offensively. He's the man! The differences I see in him and Kobe are clutch and defense. I dont live in Orlando, Dallas, or Jersey so I didnt see those games.
He just is not an under pressure performer, some players have it others dont.

Not much I can say about LA losing this one. I guess it is true you cant win them all. They have won 6 in a row. Kobe is leading the team in scoring and assist, but if you guys want to blame his for the loss, I guess that's typical. LA has a few days off until their next game and we can all see that they need it.


----------



## JNice

*Re: tmac does too many finger rolls and*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> pull up threes he could have attacked the rim and dunked on people so many times tonight
> but instead he threw it up soft..
> take it strong tmac your a big guy..
> 14 free throws is gettin no respect??


I dont care how many free throws you shoot. Tmac should have gotten other calls. He got mugged a couple times, GOING to the basket as you say, and got no call whatsoever. Kobe, because he is the media's darling and the league loves him gets those calls easily.

Tmac was not at fault for this game anyway. Knicks wouldn't even have been close had Sprewell not gone bananas.. and when a guy gets going like that, nothing you can really do. 

Tmac did also plays 54 mins.. and I dont think 34, 13, and 8 is such a bad night. Both teams had guys who played great. Sprewell won the game.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I show him some luv offensively. He's the man! The differences I see in him and Kobe are clutch and defense. I dont live in Orlando, Dallas, or Jersey so I didnt see those games.
> He just is not an under pressure performer, some players have it others dont.
> 
> Not much I can say about LA losing this one. I guess it is true you cant win them all. They have won 6 in a row. Kobe is leading the team in scoring and assist, but if you guys want to blame his for the loss, I guess that's typical. LA has a few days off until their next game and we can all see that they need it.


Just doing the same thing you do with Tmac.


----------



## grizzoistight

*haha*

i love it when people blame LA sucsess on the refs..
instead of hating how about congratulating

kobe has taken 502 foul shots in 57 games 
tmac has taken 482 in 52
so if u do the math tmac gets to the line more..so good point though

kobe is a lot more agressive and usually doesnt settle for the jumper.. he also finishes on people a lot more than tmac does


----------



## JNice

*Re: haha*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> i love it when people blame LA sucsess on the refs..
> instead of hating how about congratulating
> 
> kobe has taken 502 foul shots in 57 games
> tmac has taken 482 in 52
> so if u do the math tmac gets to the line more..so good point though
> 
> kobe is a lot more agressive and usually doesnt settle for the jumper.. he also finishes on people a lot more than tmac does


Doesnt matter, doesnt matter. If he is getting fouled, especially going to the basket, the call should be made.

I'm not blaming LA's success on the refs.


----------



## grizzoistight

*dee bo*

when the game is on the line the refs dont want to be the one to decide it..
so unless he really got hacked then their gonna let him play
ya know??


----------



## JNice

*Re: dee bo*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> when the game is on the line the refs dont want to be the one to decide it..
> so unless he really got hacked then their gonna let him play
> ya know??


He did really get hacked, so he should have been shooting free throws, ya know? If the foul or contact prohibits him from being able to take the shot, the foul should be called, point blank.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Just doing the same thing you do with Tmac.


I'm sorry man, but I can only call it how I see it. I know alot of Mac fans believe that he could do what Kobe has done if he were dealt the same hand. Maybe that's true, but until he does it, I gotta call em how I see em. Kobe has risen to the occasion over and over again in the playoffs. Mac hasnt just like tonight. Clutch and defense, man. Clutch and defense.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm sorry man, but I can only call it how I see it. I know alot of Mac fans believe that he could do what Kobe has done if he were dealt the same hand. Maybe that's true, but until he does it, I gotta call em how I see em. Kobe has risen to the occasion over and over again in the playoffs. Mac hasnt just like tonight. Clutch and defense, man. Clutch and defense.


And i'm just saying you do the same things with Tmac. Ignore all the good stuff, and specifically point-out and over emphasize the bad stuff.

Kobe has had more opportunities to rise to the occasion in the playoffs. He has also had Shaq with him to rise to the occasion.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> And i'm just saying you do the same things with Tmac. Ignore all the good stuff, and specifically point-out and over emphasize the bad stuff.


I dont ignore the good stuff. I started off tonight giving him props for doing everything offensively. Props for scoring 52 in 3 quarter. Props for leading the league in scoring. all that!

The point of my comments point out the differences I see in them. Dont get carried away with emotion, your guy is a superstar. Its just somethings that I dont see him do, and all you can do is make excuses for why my guy does do them.



> Kobe has had more opportunities to rise to the occasion in the playoffs. He has also had Shaq with him to rise to the occasion.


Two great playoff moment for Kobe:
The first, in Phoenix Kobe draws the double team guarded by jason Kidd and Rodney Rogers and he burries a game winning jumper. clutch!!!!!!!!!!
the other, was in the finals, same year against the Pacers. Shaq fouls out in the fourth quarter. Kobe hits a series of baskets sending the game into overtime. Then he wins that game with Shaq on the bench.

Now tell me what did Shaq have to do with what he did in either of those situations?


----------



## grizzoistight

*can we write a book*

for all the excuses yall make for tmac getting eliminated from the playoffs..
he has no supporting cast
grant hill has been injured..

and all the reasons why kobe is more clutch
heres 2 brilliant ones from dee bo - 
kobe has shaq
kobe and the lakers get all the calls from the refs becuz hes the 'media darling'


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> I dont ignore the good stuff. I started off tonight giving him props for doing everything offensively. Props for scoring 52 in 3 quarter. Props for leading the league in scoring. all that!
> 
> The point of my comments point out the differences I see in them. Dont get carried away with emotion, your guy is a superstar. Its just somethings that I dont see him do, and all you can do is make excuses for why my guy does do them.
> 
> 
> Two great playoff moment for Kobe:
> The first, in Phoenix Kobe draws the double team guarded by jason Kidd and Rodney Rogers and he burries a game winning jumper. clutch!!!!!!!!!!
> the other, was in the finals, same year against the Pacers. Shaq fouls out in the fourth quarter. Kobe hits a series of baskets sending the game into overtime. Then he wins that game with Shaq on the bench.
> 
> Now tell me what did Shaq have to do with what he did in either of those situations?


Shaq had nothing to do with those opportunities, but everything to do with putting him in the position to have those opportunities. Clutch plays are a somewhat learned skill. You learn from the mistakes, from the misses, from the failures. Kobe had the opportunity right into the league to take big-time clutch shots and learn from those failures.. unfortunately, Tmac has never had the people around him for him to have those opportunities to learn from.

As for Tmac's defense, there is nothing at all wrong about it. I can remember specific instances of Kobe getting burned by different players.. but almost no one in the league can guard each other one on one, especially on the wings.


----------



## JNice

*Re: can we write a book*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> for all the excuses yall make for tmac getting eliminated from the playoffs..
> he has no supporting cast
> grant hill has been injured..
> 
> and all the reasons why kobe is more clutch
> heres 2 brilliant ones from dee bo -
> kobe has shaq
> kobe and the lakers get all the calls from the refs becuz hes the 'media darling'


They aren't excuses, they are truths. You really believe if Grant Hill were healthy that Orlando would not have made it out of the first round? If your answer to that is yes, and from you it just might be, then you must believe Kobe would have rings without Shaq.


----------



## grizzoistight

*dee bo*

you care to make an excuse why kobe has more block shots than tmac.. i mean hes 3 inches taller and a lot longer arms
or why kobe has a lot more steals
or why kobe makes the all defensive team every year?? I guess its cuz he has shaq..


----------



## JNice

Would you like to explain why Tmac has some 200 more blocked shots than Kobe in one less year of playing time? Or how about the over 400 more turnovers that Kobe has?


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Shaq had nothing to do with those opportunities, but everything to do with putting him in the position to have those opportunities. Clutch plays are a somewhat learned skill. You learn from the mistakes, from the misses, from the failures. Kobe had the opportunity right into the league to take big-time clutch shots and learn from those failures.. unfortunately, Tmac has never had the people around him for him to have those opportunities to learn from.


I'd say Kobe has everything to do with putting himself in those positions as well as Shaq. As far as the big game experience, maybe Kobe was better player than Tracy then and thats why he was selected a Laker, they choose Kobe and sent Eddie Jones packing while Tmac was riding the pine in Toronto. And Tmac had a very good team around him in Toronto and he was a sixth man. Since you love speculating, image if he would have stayed in Canada. The Raptor would rule.:yes:



> As for Tmac's defense, there is nothing at all wrong about it. I can remember specific instances of Kobe getting burned by different players.. but almost no one in the league can guard each other one on one, especially on the wings.


I'll give you that. Its hard for wing players to guard one another, but I remember seeing Kobe shut down AI for an entire second half in a game that ended up being the difference between home court advantage in the finals, 2001. I remember watching Kobe have to guard point guard that should were smaller and quicker, but his defensive awareness was unmatched. This was the year he was a first team all nba defender while Harper was the point guard in LA.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> Would you like to explain why Tmac has some 200 more blocked shots than Kobe in one less year of playing time? Or how about the over 400 more turnovers that Kobe has?


The blocks because he is a taller, and a longer defender, and the turnovers because Kobe has been an allstar in the league since he was 18 years old. He's basically been playing longer.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> I'd say Kobe has everything to do with putting himself in those positions as well as Shaq. As far as the big game experience, maybe Kobe was better player than Tracy then and thats why he was selected a Laker, they choose Kobe and sent Eddie Jones packing while Tmac was riding the pine in Toronto. And Tmac had a very good team around him in Toronto and he was a sixth man. Since you love speculating, image if he would have stayed in Canada. The Raptor would rule.:yes:
> 
> 
> I'll give you that. Its hard for wing players to guard one another, but I remember seeing Kobe shut down AI for an entire second half in a game that ended up being the difference between home court advantage in the finals, 2001. I remember watching Kobe have to guard point guard that should were smaller and quicker, but his defensive awareness was unmatched. This was the year he was a first team all nba defender while Harper was the point guard in LA.


And that is the difference in our bias's.. I remember Kobe getting burned and burned bad multiple times in important moments of a game earlier this year guarding Steve Francis and Houston won.

I would have loved to see Tracy and Vince playing together for awhile.. but I dont think Vince would have been able to handle his younger cousin taking over the team. Grant Hill is/would have been the perfect wingman for a player like Tmac, unfortunately that has never been able to come to fruition.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> The blocks because he is a taller, and a longer defender, and the turnovers because Kobe has been an allstar in the league since he was 18 years old. He's basically been playing longer.


I know that, but obviously your buddy doesnt. Kobe has been playing longer but he is still way ahead of Tmac as far as turnovers.


----------



## grizzoistight

*dee bo*

your still bringing a weak argument to the table
kobe has 3 rings -
tmac hasnt made it out the first round
kobe has more all star games
been on the all nba team more
on the all defensive team more
when its all said and done people will look at kobes rings not that he had shaq


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> And that is the difference in our bias's.. I remember Kobe getting burned and burned bad multiple times in important moments of a game earlier this year guarding Steve Francis and Houston won.


Are you talking about the first matchup with Shaq vs Yao? I have that on tape, but havent watched it. I do remember Kobe guarding Mobley the majority of the game. I also remember Steve was hot and scored 40+. If he got burned he got burned. Im really not sure. Bottomline these cats that vote him to the all defensive teams every year, do it for a reason. Hes the better defender.


----------



## JNice

*Re: dee bo*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> your still bringing a weak argument to the table
> kobe has 3 rings -
> tmac hasnt made it out the first round
> kobe has more all star games
> been on the all nba team more
> on the all defensive team more
> when its all said and done people will look at kobes rings not that he had shaq


Actually Tmac is pretty on par with Kobe as far as career accolades besides the rings. And you are wrong, people will always talk about Shaq when talking about Kobe's success unless he can do it without Shaq. People who like Kobe will ignore Shaq, people that dont will point him out. That is the great thing about sports and the reason sports writers have jobs. It is all objective.

The fact that this argument has gone on over 16 pages is proof of that fact that Kobe and Tmac are much closer than either of you would like to admit.


----------



## grizzoistight

*here ya go dee bo*

http://www.nba.com/news/defensive_team_award_020430.html

The voting panel consisted of the NBA’s 29 head coaches, who were asked to select NBA All-Defensive First and Second Teams by position. Coaches were not permitted to vote for players from their own team. 

i think the coaches know basketball a little better than u do??


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you talking about the first matchup with Shaq vs Yao? I have that on tape, but havent watched it. I do remember Kobe guarding Mobley the majority of the game. I also remember Steve was hot and scored 40+. If he got burned he got burned. Im really not sure. Bottomline these cats that vote him to the all defensive teams every year, do it for a reason. Hes the better defender.



I will admit, as I have before, that Tmac's defense has not been as good this season the past few. But except for this season I dont think Kobe's defense was any better than Tmac's. 

People don't always get voted to all-anything team's because they deserve to be there. You are ignorant if you dont think a guy's popularity, his market, his media perception, and all sorts of other un-baketball related things factor into those selections.

This is the first year that Tmac has really received national media attention and it has got him into MVP talk, even though he was just as good the past couple years.


----------



## IV

*Re: Re: dee bo*



> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually Tmac is pretty on par with Kobe as far as career accolades besides the rings.


What do you mean?

Kobe has so many more accolades its ridiculous. Does Tmac even have any accolades other than...............

three time allstar
and 2 allnba awards

notice he has no all defensive team awards.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> People don't always get voted to all-anything team's because they deserve to be there. You are ignorant if you dont think a guy's popularity, his market, his media perception, and all sorts of other un-baketball related things factor into those selections.


Do you think that Kobe has been voted to the NBA all defensive team for the past three years because he is popular and that influences coaches? 

Dee Bo that would be ignorant.


----------



## grizzoistight

*the only thing tmac can do better than kobe*

is score..and if shaq wasnt there its kind of obvious kobe would be better at that also
he also can make excuses for losing better..
well maybe kobe can also?? but he just hasnt had to do it.. in so long


----------



## grizzoistight

*ok so according to deebo*

the only reason guys like 
christie 
bowen
and cliff robinson make the all nba defensive team 
is becuz they on all of these commercials and are so popular in the media..
MAN JUST ADMIT YOUR WRONG


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you think that Kobe has been voted to the NBA all defensive team for the past three years because he is popular and that influences coaches?
> 
> Dee Bo that would be ignorant.


Yes. It is a completely objective award. Anything could easily influence that vote. The only guy that you can absolutely say deserves that accolade is Ben Wallace. Other than that, it is hype, perception, popularity ... Ron Artest has been easily one of the best defenders in the league the last couple years.. where is he at?


----------



## JNice

*Re: ok so according to deebo*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> the only reason guys like
> christie
> bowen
> and cliff robinson make the all nba defensive team
> is becuz they on all of these commercials and are so popular in the media..
> MAN JUST ADMIT YOUR WRONG


I didn't say the only reason. And I didn't say it has to with every guy every time.


----------



## grizzoistight

*hes with your boy*

on the honorable mention list..
maybe theres a reason for that
i did see jordan light up artest ( jordan is 40 by the way) and then artest went postal and started breaking things


----------



## JNice

*Re: hes with your boy*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> on the honorable mention list..
> maybe theres a reason for that
> i did see jordan light up artest ( jordan is 40 by the way) and then artest went postal and started breaking things


Yeah and I have also seen Tmac absolutely light up Bruce Bowen and Doug Christie before.


----------



## IV

Artest and Wallace standout defensively mainly because thats all they do. Kobe is a more dynamic player, so his defense often goes overlooked, but not by the coaches or GM's. Did you know Kobe was the second runner up for defensive player of the year last year? He defensive awards have nothing to do with popularity.


----------



## IV

I just saw the highlights from the game tonight on Sportscenter, Kobe was off da hook. They mentioned he has scored 569 points in the month of February which is another record he has broken this year. That was just before they recaped the tremendous run. what a highlight reel!

Did you see that ball fake on Barry? Wheeeeeeeew!

Kobe 4 MVP!


----------



## grizzoistight

*dee bo*

hey dee bo 
name one accomplishment that tmac has done which kobe hasnt

i can name a couple more things which kobe has done ..
all star mvp??
more consec gaves with 30?? 35?? 40??
most points in a month
most threes hit in a quater??
most threes hit in a game
leads the league in tripple doubles??

has tmac done anything ??


----------



## Vivor

Dee Boo,

Why continue this debate. You are not debating with basketball fans. You are debating with Kobe cult worshippers. Heck, they can't even remember when Kobe has a bad game and they only see T-Mac's bad games. As a basketball fan, I think Kobe is better, but only by a hair. But of course, that's not enough for them.


----------



## shobe42

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> People don't always get voted to all-anything team's because they deserve to be there. You are ignorant if you dont think a guy's popularity, his market, his media perception, and all sorts of other un-baketball related things factor into those selections.


So Kobe gets on the all defense team over TMac cause of market and media perception?

I suppose that's why Bruce Bowen and Christie make it over TMac? There goes that argument.


----------



## shobe42

*Did anybody see Sports Illustrated*

It had Kobe on the cover. Inside was a good article on Kobe's long time work ethic 
Rick Reilly wrote an article on how it's time to except that Kobe may become the best player in NBA history. (I don't neccessrily agree) I find it hard to see anybody better than Mike.


Also MJ is saying that Kobes now seperating himself from his opposition in the league (ie. TMac) much like he had to seperate himself from Drexler.


And finally, The GMs voted the top players again. 
1) Shaq
2) Kobe 
3) Duncan
4) T Mac
5) KG

So I don't think we need to make any more arguments. We could just leave it up to the proffesionals.

Oh yeah, 
"This is the best I've seen anybody play in my career." - 16 year veteran Mark Jackson on Kobe.


----------



## OZZY

If anything look at the Magic, Tracy McGrady is playing wonderful basketball. And most of that has to do with the addition of one post player, that is right one post player that can score at times in the post and grab rebounds. Tracy is going nuts on the Magic, he is putting up awesome numbers just off of the addition of Gooden.

Now look at Kobe, he never gets double teamed. And he has probably the best post player to ever play the game. No one can stop Shaq that is a fact. So you think that might have alittle to do with Kobe's success.

*Kobe is a great player, he is a dominate player, he is a confident and cocky player. But I will not truely respect the man until he succeeds without Shaq by his side. Just my opinion. *


----------



## shobe42

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>
> 
> Now look at Kobe, he never gets double teamed.


That's just not true. If you watch Laker games you'll know that's not true. A matter of fact during that streak he'd often be flat out triple teamed. He once was quadrupl teamed. 

Teams focus on Kobe a lot more than people say. Why do you think the Spurs got Bowen? They said themselves it was to stop Kobe. From Bowen to artest to Patterson to Christie why do you think people say that they are Kobe stoppers. 
Nobody talks about being a TMAC stopper. Kobes the guy that they want to beat.


----------



## ChiBron

Last nights game between the Magic and Knicks says it all abt what kind of Defense t-mac faces everytime. Knicks came quick with the double team almost every time he touched the ball from the very first minute of the game till the last minute of 2nd OT. Kobe NEVER goes through that, and i regularly watch laker games so making lame excuses like "u don't watch laker games" is just that - LAME.

As far as teams getting individual defender to stop Kobe goes, well ofcourse, LA have been the best team in basketball from the past 3 years. Teams have to specifically get some players to stop a certain guy to get past a team like LA. Magic r no threat to the top teams in the east, they r barely a playoff team, y would teams get speciality players to stop T-mac when u can beat them easily anyway?

We saw how Kobe performed when he indeed was double teamed during LA' first 12 games, he was shooting at an AI like fg%. Not to forget the dismal record either.


----------



## grizzoistight

*spmj*

did u notice what happened when they doubled tmac
he kicked to garrity and giricek and they drilled shot after shot
thats something kobe doesnt have.. esp in those first 12 games

kobe got doubled a ton when he scored those 40 points .. i can send u quote after quote .. where they said nothing could stop him
next year the lakers will be a brand new team
younger and more exciting with guys who can actually play


----------



## grizzoistight

*heres a couple*

Line: 46 pts., 6 reb., 3 asst., 17-27 FG's, 4-4 3P's, 8-11 FT's, +39 Eff.
Skinny: Kobe and Shaq combine for 79; hold off late Knicks rally in NY
Quotable: "He was in a zone. We couldn't contain him. We tried to keep two on him, just to keep him from penetrating. He was splitting us and going by us. We were very reluctant to really challenge him."
--Knicks coach Don Chaney
Line: 52 pts., 8 reb., 7 asst., 3 blk., 19-38 FG's, 3-9 3P's, 11-11 FT's, +46 Eff.
Skinny: No Shaq-Yao II, but Kobe crushes in double-OT classic
Quotable: "He's phenomenal. We tried a lot of different things on him. He was just phenomenal. He's been doing it all along. He's playing so good, it's sickening.
Rockets coach Rudy Tomjanovich, Houston Chronicle
"Skinny: Kobe matches combined output of Stockton, Malone
Quotable: "When you get in tough situations, he knows how to make tough shots. He's a terrific shooter. This guy is as good as there is in the game right now on the short clock."
--Jazz coach Jerry Sloan, Deseret News 

--

Line: 40 pts., 7 reb., 1 asst., 15-32 FG's, 3-7 3P's, 7-9 FT's, +26 Eff.
Skinny: Kobe reaches 40-point plateau with nine seconds left in game
Quotable: "Everyone had their hands in Kobe's face. My momma had a hand in his face and he still hit it. Kobe is playing at an unbelievable level and hitting shots. I feel like I am an all-right defender and Ruben (Patterson) is an all-right defender, and he still made us feel like we were no defenders."
--Blazers guard Bonzi Wells


----------



## grizzoistight

*this stat here*

should answer all the questions..
2002-03 Regular Season Efficiency Rating

Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G

maybe this should be a kobe /kg thread
cuz tmac has a long time before he catches up

http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_regular_season_leaders/LeagueLeadersEFFQuery.html


----------



## JNice

*Re: this stat here*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> should answer all the questions..
> 2002-03 Regular Season Efficiency Rating
> 
> Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G
> 
> maybe this should be a kobe /kg thread
> cuz tmac has a long time before he catches up
> 
> http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_regular_season_leaders/LeagueLeadersEFFQuery.html


Dude, he is .4 points behind Kobe. That rating has been talked about many times before and mostly for it's uselessness.


----------



## shobe42

*Re: heres a couple*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> Line: 46 pts., 6 reb., 3 asst., 17-27 FG's, 4-4 3P's, 8-11 FT's, +39 Eff.
> Skinny: Kobe and Shaq combine for 79; hold off late Knicks rally in NY
> Quotable: "He was in a zone. We couldn't contain him. We tried to keep two on him, just to keep him from penetrating. He was splitting us and going by us. We were very reluctant to really challenge him."
> --Knicks coach Don Chaney
> Line: 52 pts., 8 reb., 7 asst., 3 blk., 19-38 FG's, 3-9 3P's, 11-11 FT's, +46 Eff.
> Skinny: No Shaq-Yao II, but Kobe crushes in double-OT classic
> Quotable: "He's phenomenal. We tried a lot of different things on him. He was just phenomenal. He's been doing it all along. He's playing so good, it's sickening.
> Rockets coach Rudy Tomjanovich, Houston Chronicle
> "Skinny: Kobe matches combined output of Stockton, Malone
> Quotable: "When you get in tough situations, he knows how to make tough shots. He's a terrific shooter. This guy is as good as there is in the game right now on the short clock."
> --Jazz coach Jerry Sloan, Deseret News
> 
> --
> 
> Line: 40 pts., 7 reb., 1 asst., 15-32 FG's, 3-7 3P's, 7-9 FT's, +26 Eff.
> Skinny: Kobe reaches 40-point plateau with nine seconds left in game
> Quotable: "Everyone had their hands in Kobe's face. My momma had a hand in his face and he still hit it. Kobe is playing at an unbelievable level and hitting shots. I feel like I am an all-right defender and Ruben (Patterson) is an all-right defender, and he still made us feel like we were no defenders."
> --Blazers guard Bonzi Wells


Great evidence Grizzo, but don't expect anybody to try and challenge you. They'll probably just ignore that.


----------



## JNice

*Re: Re: heres a couple*



> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> 
> 
> Great evidence Grizzo, but don't expect anybody to try and challenge you. They'll probably just ignore that.


There are plenty of examples and quotes about Tmac as well, I just don't care to waste my time to go hunt them down.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Vivor</b>!
> Dee Boo,
> 
> Why continue this debate. You are not debating with basketball fans. You are debating with Kobe cult worshippers. Heck, they can't even remember when Kobe has a bad game and they only see T-Mac's bad games. As a basketball fan, I think Kobe is better, but only by a hair. But of course, that's not enough for them.


Sure that's enough, but calling people cult worshipers? Yeah that's well though out. I have my opinions about Kobe and Tracy. To say that I only remember Kobes good games and only Macs bad ones is false. The good comes with the bad for both players, however, I consistently see Tracy not showing up in the clutch and his defense is very suspect. I point it out all the time just so you wont say that's only one game. Mac is a superb offensive player, he just seems to faulter in the clutch, and needs to work on his D.


----------



## grizzoistight

*this should answer it*

im not sure who mr brewer is but i think he works for the magic

Who do you take and why, T-MAC, or Kobe?

A: I go back and forth on this one. Both are special players. The difference between them is very small, but right now Kobe is a little more advanced. It's mostly because he has the championship experience. As smooth as Kobe is, T-Mac is an even smoother player. T-Mac can shoot it deeper than Kobe can. T-Mac has more of a variety of ways to score. But Kobe's a little bit ahead of him. Deep down, T-Mac will give him that. Kobe plays hard more consistently than Tracy, though Tracy has become quite the competitor. Kobe is truly one of the best defenders in the league; we are still waiting for T-Mac to rise to that level. And Kobe will hit that last shot. T-Mac will take it, but we're waiting for him to be clutch like that. So, Kobe's a little bit better right now. But, hey, they're both great.


----------



## JNice

Thats a pretty fair assessment. Most people have Tmac right behind Kobe and some of us believe he is right there with him.


----------



## John

*Re: I will admit...*



> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> I have always said that Kobe is the best talent in the NBA since 2000-01. I have said that Kobe would be the best NBA scorer when he opted to declare for the draft coming out of highschool. (He is still the best offensive player I have ever seen in HS.) Serious. But I have never admitted that Kobe has come close to Jordan's offensive dominance until now. Kobe's 6th consecutive 40 point performance and 10 straight 35+ point game has me having flashback of Jordan in the 80s. What Kobe has done is simply amazing considering this era could be the NBA's most talented era in it's history. Kobe is doing this against stronger and more athletic players...that is amazing. Although, I have little doubt Jordan could have done the same today as yesterday but maybe with 2 points less to his average...I also have no doubt that Kobe could have done this in the 80s. In fact, I believe he could have done better in the 80s. Kobe would easily be the strongest guard back then and his vertical and aerial ability would have him in the class of Jordan and Nique. Is Kobe a better scorer than Jordan? Of course not...the difference between Jordan and Kobe is consistency. Jordan did it for 10 years (10 scoring crowns) and Kobe has none. But the streak put on by Kobe this last few weeks has immortalized him in the offensive heaven that often belonged basketball gods, Wilt and Jordan. Kobe's current streak is the most impressive offensive dominance I have ever seen since Jordan's postseason performance in 1992-93.


People do get stronger years by years. There is no way Kobe would have this athletic ability if he was a 20 year old man in 80s.

And Jordan will be even more athletic if he is a 20 year old now in this era!


----------



## Obe1Kobe

Their offense is too close to compare as far as team impact. Kobe runs away with it on defense though. TMac rests on defense a little and it hurts his all around game.
Kobe is virtuallty one of the most complete players along with Duncan and Da Big Ticket. TMac is simply offense with average defensive production.


----------



## ChiBron

People(or kobe fans) questioning t-mac's defense haven't really been watcing Magic games since the All star break. I will be the first to admit that he was lazy on D during the first half of the season but every since th end of all star break, he has given complete effort(and i watch every magic game btw). The man rarely ever takes plays off anymore and can flat out play D. His size, athleticism and long arms really make him hard to score on. So people questioning t-mac's will on D, PLEASE watch some Magic games, cuz i know u haven't been watching em'.

Other aspects of t-mac's game is ofcourse, nothing less then stellar. Magic finally have some decent help around him, lets see if that translates in to making out of the first round. It will be real tough to beat any of the east top 3 teams though.....Magic's frontcourt is still as soft as an ice cream.


----------



## grizzoistight

*those top 3 teams blow*

they are all losing.. 
the pistons just stink
u saw what happened to them last year
big deal they play d they cant score at all


----------



## Obe1Kobe

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> People(or kobe fans) questioning t-mac's defense haven't really been watcing Magic games since the All star break. I will be the first to admit that he was lazy on D during the first half of the season but every since th end of all star break, he has given complete effort(and i watch every magic game btw). The man rarely ever takes plays off anymore and can flat out play D. His size, athleticism and long arms really make him hard to score on. So people questioning t-mac's will on D, PLEASE watch some Magic games, cuz i know u haven't been watching em'.


 That's great. If he does it the rest of the year, with consistency, I'll be happy to say his defense has improved. True, his energy may have stepped up since the all-star break, but his defensive fundamentals to this point, are not equal to the K.O.B.E. That's it, that's all. It's simple, it's the truth!


----------



## IV

Until Tracy wins at least one all defensive team award, there is no argument. I really can't see him winning one for years. He is no where near the defender that Kobe, Kidd, GP, or Christie is. Those are your all defensive first and second team award winners.


----------



## ChiBron

> t his defensive fundamentals to this point, are not equal to the K.O.B.E. That's it, that's all. It's simple, it's the truth!


Thats nothing more than an opinion coming from a "Kobe Fanatic", as u would describe urself as.

T-mac has very Pip-like defensive fundamentals. Never goes up for fakes, stays on the ground and uses that huge wingspan to cover guys. His long arms, length and athleticism makes it impossible for other players to shoot over him with consistency. His only weakness is his inconsistent lateral movement.

As far as Kobe's defense goes, its not bad, though a tad overrated. Sometimes he does get lazy and gambles a ton, like during the february streak. Guy called Shaq behind him is a luxury t-mac doesn't have. T-mac's stls per game could have been better if not for Declerq and Kemp being Magic's centers.


----------



## JNice

I think a lot of people also don't take into consideration that Orlando has been playing a whole lot of zone this season. And unless you are a bigtime shot-blocker it is pretty hard to standout defensively playing a zone.


----------



## Pinball

I think they should rename this thread Dee Bo vs. IV or SPMJ vs. Grizzo.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> T-mac has very Pip-like defensive fundamentals.


You just jumped over the boat into the shark infested waters with that one. You are dead. Please dont ever mistake Tmac's defense for that of one of the greatest Scottie Pippen.



> As far as Kobe's defense goes, its not bad, though a tad overrated. Sometimes he does get lazy and gambles a ton, like during the february streak. Guy called Shaq behind him is a luxury t-mac doesn't have. T-mac's stls per game could have been better if not for Declerq and Kemp being Magic's centers.


Kobe's defensive awards have everything to do with his defensive abilities, and nothing to do with Shaq. He does a great job one on one, and is great defender at reading the passing lanes, he uses the baseline well as an invisble defender, and also has an uncanny ability to use his teammates to help trap offenders. His skills are clearly superior not only to Kobe fans, but those who present defensive awards(GMs, & Coaches) too.

Tmac is nothing more than a good defender, that's it. You can call it Kobe fan bias all you like, but the fact of the matter is Kobe has many defensive accolades and Tmac has none.


----------



## 33

T-Mac does not have the luxury that Kobe has in Shaq. Kobe can gamble knowing that his man is not going to the basket with as much force because Shaq is there. Kobe then can get back to his man and play D again. T-Mac cannot gamble in the same way b/c if he does, his man will attack the basket without second guessing. Kobe does have good defense, and I think it is a tad bit better than T-Mac's, but I think his defense is overrated. I believe that T-Mac would be an all-league defender if he was a Laker instead of Kobe.


----------



## IV

Quit comparing him to Kobe. Try comparing him to GP, Jason Kidd, and Doug Christie. None of them play with Shaq, so what's Tmac's excuse now?

Also, ask yourself one question. If you had one vote, would you vote for Kobe for the reasons why you say he is a all league defender?


----------



## 33

That wasn't a comparison, I was making a point that Kobe is an overrated defender. I feel that he is a better defender than T-Mac, but I can't say he is better than Artest, A.I. (he may be small, but no one fills the passing lanes better than him in today's game), or Christie.


----------



## IV

Kobe is not an overated defender. Critics just can't except the fact that he excels at every aspect of the game. He is and will be an all league defender for the rest of his career.

It's funny how Kobe is the only Laker, taking advantage of the luxury of the greatest non-defensive award winner, Shaq.


----------



## 33

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> Kobe is not an overated defender. Critics just can't except the fact that he excels at every aspect of the game. He is and will be an all league defender for the rest of his career.
> 
> It's funny how Kobe is the only Laker, taking advantage of the luxury of the greatest non-defensive award winner, Shaq.


He is not the only one. Fisher gets respect as a solid defender when IMO he is average at best. He flops just as much as Divac but gets less respect from the refs


----------



## IV

*Stop hating*

Knee Grow please!

you no mustache having with whiskers like a rat compared to beens your wack!


----------



## 33

That's exactly how I feel about Kobe and his D. Artest is a better defender than Kobe, hand down


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> That's exactly how I feel about Kobe and his D. Artest is a better defender than Kobe, hand down


It's alot easier to be a great defender when you don't have to worry about scoring 30 points a game. Kobe is his team's primary scorer, distributor, and playmaker. Obviously he isn't going to have quite as much energy left to play D as Artest is. However, the fact that he still manages to play anywhere close to Ron's level of D is amazing.


----------



## IV

Artest and Kobe play different positions. Granted Ron is having a break out season, or maybe he's finally getting noticed, regardless, Kobe is all league with or without your silly conspiracy theories.


----------



## grizzoistight

*do yall watch all of the pacers games??*

what makes u think ron is such a great defender ?? becuz hes physical and he gets in the head of the guys on offense?? i mean i think al harrington is better.. 
ron just makes comments in the media that he thinks he should be defensive player of the year.. 
well if the coaches and other people thought he was so great maybe he would at least make first team..
id like to look at stats on how guys like ray tmac kobe and finley 
did against artest


----------



## 33

What conspiracy theories. Artest was converted into a 3. He played the 2 last year and part of this year, but you have to have Reggie on the court so they put Artest at the 3.


----------



## IV

Conspiring against Kobe's skills saying his accolades are a result of Shaq. That's foolish. And who cares about Artest at the 3? Even if he was at the 2 last year, he didnt compare to Kobe.


----------



## 33

Artest is hands down a better one-on-one defender than Kobe IMO


----------



## Obe1Kobe

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats nothing more than an opinion coming from a "Kobe Fanatic", as u would describe urself as.
> 
> T-mac has very Pip-like defensive fundamentals. Never goes up for fakes, stays on the ground and uses that huge wingspan to cover guys. His long arms, length and athleticism makes it impossible for other players to shoot over him with consistency. His only weakness is his inconsistent lateral movement.
> 
> As far as Kobe's defense goes, its not bad, though a tad overrated. Sometimes he does get lazy and gambles a ton, like during the february streak. Guy called Shaq behind him is a luxury
> t-mac doesn't have. T-mac's stls per game could have been better if not for Declerq and Kemp being Magic's centers.


*nothing more than an opinion*-he wins defensive honors every year!! I guess that is what you call overrated.

*Shaq behind him is a luxury*
Yeah, cause shaq steps out and helps all the time!

*TMacs stls per game could have been better...Delerq...Kemp*

Was Declerq and Kemp telling him not to steal the ball?

Sounds like justification for TMac, not facts!


----------



## Obe1Kobe

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> Artest is hands down a better one-on-one defender than Kobe IMO



Somebody ought to tell the league that!


----------



## ChiBron

> Was Declerq and Kemp telling him not to steal the ball?


Its simple basketball knowledge, "Kobe Fanatic", u can gamble more on D when u have a big man who can block shots down low. Kobe knows even if he his gambling doesn't pay off, Shaq's still there to cover up for him. T-mac doesn't have that luxury. Its really not that complex to understand, u know.

LOL @ Kobe fans telling Artest's D doesn't compare up to him. Its actually the other way around. Kobe's D is overrated. I called it overrated cuz he's been making all defensive teams for a couple of years now, something he shouldn't be making. I watch enuff laker games to know what kind of effort Kobe gives on D.


----------



## IV

Thanks for the simple basketball knowledge. If you have time, maybe you can write a letter to all the idiots who vote Kobe as one of the league best defenders every year.:uhoh:

Kobe's awards are not based on his ability to gamble. That is an excuse "Kobe critics" tell themselves to create security in their hatred. 

When the defensive teams come out this year, try reading some of the quotes that the GM's and Coaches have on Kobe. They'll let you know what to look for since you watch so many Laker game with that high basketball IQ, and still dont see it. Watch him force players to go where he wants them to go on the court, watch him get steals, and block shots. Watch him do all these things while also leading his team offensively. He's on that team because he is a superior defender, and nothing more. 

Wonder why Shaq never makes the team?


----------



## Obe1Kobe

http://www.nba.com/history/kobe_10000_030503.html

It's all about the K.O.B.E. breakin' records.

(Originally posted by IV on the Laker thread!)


----------



## Obe1Kobe

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> 
> 
> Its simple basketball knowledge, "Kobe Fanatic", u can gamble more on D when u have a big man who can block shots down low. Kobe knows even if he his gambling doesn't pay off, Shaq's still there to cover up for him. T-mac doesn't have that luxury. Its really not that complex to understand, u know.
> 
> LOL @ Kobe fans telling Artest's D doesn't compare up to him. Its actually the other way around. Kobe's D is overrated. I called it overrated cuz he's been making all defensive teams for a couple of years now, something he shouldn't be making. I watch enuff laker games to know what kind of effort Kobe gives on D.


 O.K. Artest fanatic- If he could just shut his trap and play ball.
But he can't, so he is not!


----------



## ChiBron

> O.K. Artest fanatic- If he could just shut his trap and play ball.
> But he can't, so he is not!


Gr8 logic, i pick artest's D over Kobe's overrated D, i become an "Artest Fanatic". Isn't it amazing how intelligent Kobe fans r?

Anyway, Artest is a superb defender, and better then Kobe. His behavior really has no part to play in what we're talking.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Obe1Kobe</b>!
> 
> 
> O.K. Artest fanatic- If he could just shut his trap and play ball.
> But he can't, so he is not!


I would say there is no question that Artest is a much better defender than Kobe. Besides Ben Wallace, I dont think there is anyone more deserving of defensive honors than Artest. Too bad he is a nutcase.

As far as Tmac, I don't see anything that Kobe does any better defensively than Tmac. Kobe has slightly better footspeed, but tmac has height and reach. You can say what you want about the awards he has won, but I would be willing to bet if he had been playing for Cleveland the last three years he wouldnt have gotten any defensive accolades.

Tmac has seemed less of player defensively, but again, Orlando has been playing a ton of zone this season.


----------



## Yyzlin

Up, Up and ... ? 

The Raptors want to believe Tracy McGrady won't fly the coop 


By Jackie MacMullan 

There's no longer any question that the Raptors will make the playoffs. The only issue hanging in the balance is how high a seeding they'll get in the postseason. While Vince Carter's aerial acrobatics and last-second heroics have received most of the attention during Toronto's late-season surge, an equally vital ingredient has been the play of 6'8" Tracy McGrady, the 20 year-old former high school phenom who has blossomed as a starter. 

Since coach Butch Carter inserted McGrady into the lineup on Feb. 25, the Raptors had gone 11-2 through Sunday's game, bringing their record to 39-26, the fourth best mark in the Eastern Conference. McGrady's versatility has enabled Carter to use him at both guard spots and at small forward. Knicks coach Jeff Van Gundy was so impressed with McGrady's play against NewYork last month that he has likened Carter, McGrady and 6'6" guard Doug Christie to the Bulls' trio of Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen and Ron Harper. 

There's one snag in that comparison: McGrady may not be around to help Toronto build a dynasty. As recently as last week, sources close to him said he'll bolt the Raptors when he becomes a free agent this summer.Toronto vice president and general manager Glen Grunwald refuses to believe it until it happens. "I've heard all the rumors that he's leaving, but I haven't heard that from Tracy," Grunwald says. "We had very frank discussions with him before the [Feb. 24] trading deadline. We told him, 'Tracy, we'd love you to stay. You're our first choice. But if you don't want to stay, then we need to talk about where we can trade you that will make us both happy.' He said no to that. He's never told us he doesn't want to be here." 

Then again, Shaquille O'Neal never told the Magic he was leaving in the summer of 1996, but once the Lakers feverishly cleared salary cap room to accommodate him, he took a hike. Stephon Marbury didn't let the Timberwolves know he wanted out, either -- until a week before last year's trading deadline, when he demanded to be sent to the Nets. Young stars often have a hard time telling the only team they've been on that they want to make a break, and the team often deludes itself into thinking it can find a way to make the relationship last. 

McGrady is deeply loyal to his agent, Arn Tellem, and to Adidas, which signed him to a $12 million endorsement deal. Both Tellem and Adidas want him to play in the U.S. to enhance his marketing potential. "I'm sure they have their agendas, but Tracy has assured us he'll make his 
own decision," Grunwald says.

In the meantime McGrady's stock keeps rising. He has always been a gifted offensive player, but by putting the clamps on All Stars Grant Hill and Allan Houston in recent weeks, he has given his reputation as a defender a huge boost. "If ever there was a Generation X version of Pippen, he's it," says Pacers president Donnie Walsh. "As good as Vince Carter has been, this kid has been playing just as well, and he's doing more things. He can handle the ball, he can rebound on both ends, he's gotten to the point where he can shoot it, and he's playing great defense." 

Yet it's likely that Toronto has groomed McGrady to be someone else's star. When O'Neal's free agency was pending, rumors were rampant that he wanted to play in Los Angeles. Orlando's front office was aware of the talk, but felt its offer would surpass all others. "In retrospect, I suppose you could call us naive, but you have to remember where we were," says Magic senior executive vice president Pat Williams. "We had just been to the Finals. We were destiny's darlings. We were young, exciting, a team on the rise, and we're supposed to trade the guy?" 

Who can blame the Raptors for feeling the same way? They were smart not to deal McGrady last month, particularly since they received no offers of close to equal value. They're trying to establish themselves as a playoff threat, and they can't do that without McGrady. Besides, management believes it can persuade the kid to stay. 

Providing him with starter's minutes and calling his number more has helped make McGrady happier in Toronto. The Raptors public relations staff is putting the finishing touches on a highlight video to promote his candidacy for the Sixth Man Award. Grunwald says there are other plans in the works for providing "ways for the fans to show how much they appreciate Tracy." 

Will it be enough? McGrady likes warm weather cities -- such as Orlando, where he's building a house -- and while he's shown no jealousy toward Vince Carter, surely he wonders what it would be like to be with a team on which his star would be the brightest. Toronto can pay McGrady $87 
million over seven seasons, or $20 million more than any other team is permitted to under the collective bargaining agreement. If they can't persuade McGrady to stay, the Raptors could work a sign-and-trade deal with the Magic for, say, a first-round pick plus Corey Maggette or Darrell Armstrong. Toronto could argue they made out O.K., the way Minnesota did when it ended up with Terrell Brandon and Wally Szczerbiak for Marbury. 

The Raptors say they aren't interested in sign-and-trades. They hope that if their playoff ride is as thrilling as they believe it will be, McGrady will want to stay around. "We'll make our case," Grunwald says. "We'll be dealing with reality. The other teams will be dealing in sales pitches."

--------------------------------------------

Interesting read for this argument's sake. Note: its dated from 2000.


----------



## shobe42

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> but I would be willing to bet if he had been playing for Cleveland the last three years he wouldnt have gotten any defensive accolades.


Yeah, and if T Mac was on the Lakers you'd be all for Kobe.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, and if T Mac was on the Lakers you'd be all for Kobe.


Nope, I have nothing against the Lakers. I'm not a team fan, but I know what they can do. I called their first title before they won it, and none of my friends believed me. I told them they'd win it again, and again no one believed me.

In fact, I still believe LA will probably win this season again, and maybe a couple more.

But I don't believe Kobe is any better the Tmac.


----------



## grizzoistight

*dee bo*

your boy is goin off tonight
but dont give me this crap about he doesnt have supporting players becuz gooden and giricek have been sick since the trade
yea yall dont have a 7 footer but no team in the east does... so dont cry


----------



## JNice

*Re: dee bo*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> your boy is goin off tonight
> but dont give me this crap about he doesnt have supporting players becuz gooden and giricek have been sick since the trade
> yea yall dont have a 7 footer but no team in the east does... so dont cry


He hasnt had a supporting cast. This is the best he has played with, and they are what, 5-1 now. So I'm not complaining. But the past 2.5 years he hasnt had a supporting cast.

And even so, both these guys are still rookies, which you cannot discount.

Looks like he is going for 50 tonight. Just doesnt get any better.


----------



## grizzoistight

*ill agree man*

he didnt before..
but this year he does
so yall cant use it as an excuse
good game for him though


----------



## JNice

*Re: ill agree man*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> he didnt before..
> but this year he does
> so yall cant use it as an excuse
> good game for him though


And ya'll cant expect him to take two rookies to the Finals. I think it would be acceptable to expect this team to get probably into the 2nd round of the playoffs, but they are still lacking in many areas.

Hopefully Tmac will be healthy at the end of the year, as opposed the last year.


----------



## grizzoistight

*haha*

he was only hurting when they lost 
he never complained after a win
giricek isnt really a rookie hes like 25 or 26 and has been playin overseas
i love it man.. your already makin excuses..
im sure next year itll be something like tmac couldnt win becuz it was his bobblehead night or something


----------



## JNice

*Re: haha*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> he was only hurting when they lost
> he never complained after a win
> giricek isnt really a rookie hes like 25 or 26 and has been playin overseas
> i love it man.. your already makin excuses..
> im sure next year itll be something like tmac couldnt win becuz it was his bobblehead night or something


You honestly think Tmac was faking an injury last year in the playoffs? Of course he was. And he faked the whole summer working with a back specialist doing some kind of funky back stretching machine just to get his disks to slip back into place. 

Giricek is a rookie. He hasnt been playing in the NBA. Overseas is a good warmup, but it still isnt the NBA. No one else in the league could carry that team to the Finals, except maybe a healthy Shaq.

Maybe in a couple years you'll be making excuses that Kobe can't win without Shaq.. oh wait, we already know he cant.


----------



## grizzoistight

*man i didnt say the finals*

if tmac gets them out of rd 1 ill get off his back


----------



## JNice

*Re: man i didnt say the finals*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> if tmac gets them out of rd 1 ill get off his back


The health comment was out of line. Anyone could see that Tmac was very legitimately injured at the end of last season. He could barely walk between games.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

*Re: Re: haha*



> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> You honestly think Tmac was faking an injury last year in the playoffs? Of course he was. And he faked the whole summer working with a back specialist doing some kind of funky back stretching machine just to get his disks to slip back into place.
> 
> Giricek is a rookie. He hasnt been playing in the NBA. Overseas is a good warmup, but it still isnt the NBA. No one else in the league could carry that team to the Finals, except maybe a healthy Shaq.
> 
> Maybe in a couple years you'll be making excuses that Kobe can't win without Shaq.. oh wait, we already know he cant.


Kobe doesn't have a team structured and built around him. I think that Orlando management have given up on the Hill thing and are now going to build more extensively around TMac. Both are great players. One can argue that given the current lineup Kobe has if he had played in the East they would be playoff contenders...then one can also say that Shaq and TMac just like Shaq and Kobe could have won 3 championships. It's all speculation and IFs. First off, you are right TMac did not FAKE those injuries. He worked his butt off in the summer to rehab it. Both Kobe and TMac are great players and both have amazing offseason work ethic in the offseason. It's great to see a new player-player rivalry starting but like I always said if u want a better rivalry let's hope for an Orlando-Laker finals in the future. Could be the next Bird-Magic...of course with Lebron coming up...he could be in the same position Jordan was in. Man the league looks fantastic in the future.


----------



## Pinball

*Re: Re: Re: haha*



> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> great to see a new player-player rivalry starting but like I always said if u want a better rivalry let's hope for an Orlando-Laker finals in the future. Could be the next Bird-Magic...of course with Lebron coming up...he could be in the same position Jordan was in. Man the league looks fantastic in the future.


Actually an Orl-LA Finals matchup would be alot funner if Shaq pulled a hammy or something. Then we'd have an entertaining one-on-one matchup between Kobe and TMac. Certainly alot more entertaining than watching the Lakers pound the ball into Shaq every time. With Lebron coming I expect Kobe and TMac to raise the level of their game even more. One thing MJ never had was young guys like Kobe and TMac coming to take his place. The only time he had competition at the 2 was when he was in his mid 30's. Kobe and TMac are going to have Lebron and Anthony to battle for the next decade so I expect to see career years from both guys for the next 5-6 years.


----------



## JNice

*Re: Re: Re: haha*



> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe doesn't have a team structured and built around him. I think that Orlando management have given up on the Hill thing and are now going to build more extensively around TMac. Both are great players. One can argue that given the current lineup Kobe has if he had played in the East they would be playoff contenders...then one can also say that Shaq and TMac just like Shaq and Kobe could have won 3 championships. It's all speculation and IFs. First off, you are right TMac did not FAKE those injuries. He worked his butt off in the summer to rehab it. Both Kobe and TMac are great players and both have amazing offseason work ethic in the offseason. It's great to see a new player-player rivalry starting but like I always said if u want a better rivalry let's hope for an Orlando-Laker finals in the future. Could be the next Bird-Magic...of course with Lebron coming up...he could be in the same position Jordan was in. Man the league looks fantastic in the future.


I agree that the Lakers were not built around Shaq, but as well, Orlando was not built around Tmac. That team was built the way it is for the combination of Grant Hill and Tmac. Losing one or the other changes the entire dynamic of the team. Now they are finally doing something about it.

Orlando's team was dismantled for Grant Hill and Tim Duncan. Tmac was an afterthought.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

*Re: Re: Re: Re: haha*



> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree that the Lakers were not built around Shaq, but as well, Orlando was not built around Tmac. That team was built the way it is for the combination of Grant Hill and Tmac. Losing one or the other changes the entire dynamic of the team. Now they are finally doing something about it.
> 
> Orlando's team was dismantled for Grant Hill and Tim Duncan. Tmac was an afterthought.


Agreed. The future of Orlando is not TMac/Hill it's TMac.


----------



## Obe1Kobe

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: haha*



> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> Agreed. The future of Orlando is not TMac/Hill it's TMac.


 Who is this Grant Hill character? I thought he was just a sub. Maddog Madsen has more court time!


----------



## Obe1Kobe

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> 
> 
> Gr8 logic, i pick artest's D over Kobe's overrated D, i become an "Artest Fanatic". Isn't it amazing how intelligent Kobe fans r?
> 
> Anyway, Artest is a superb defender, and better then Kobe. His behavior really has no part to play in what we're talking.



His behavior will continue to hamper his ability to stay in games which does play a part in what were talking about!

Oh and the fanatic thing was sarcasm for the same reasons you call any Kobe supporter a fanatic. True, I may be one, but I see plenty of people tagged as kobe-fanatics who make very valid points. But to make a valid point on Kobe's game tags you as a fanatic. If you don't like being tagged, then don't tag others. Ron needs to play in the league more. He complains, he fights and he occasional shuts up and plays killer D. But his negative impact is far overplaying his D.


----------



## JNice

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: haha*



> Originally posted by <b>Obe1Kobe</b>!
> 
> 
> Who is this Grant Hill character? I thought he was just a sub. Maddog Madsen has more court time!


Of course you know who Grant Hill is.  One of the most unfortunate happenings in NBA history. Grant Hill was not only one of the best players in the world, but also one of the best people. He doesn't deserve the fate he has been served.


----------



## KingOfTheRock17

T-mac has a better scoring percentage but u also have to remember kobe has to share points with shaq and t-mac doesn't. i think kobe would look alot better and score alot more points if he didn't have shaq.; shaq may help kobe but not with his scoring percentage.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>KingOfTheRock17</b>!
> T-mac has a better scoring percentage but u also have to remember kobe has to share points with shaq and t-mac doesn't. i think kobe would look alot better and score alot more points if he didn't have shaq.; shaq may help kobe but not with his scoring percentage.


Not necessarily true. There are plenty of shots available besides Shaqs. Shaq creates a ton of shot opportunities, easy ones, for everyone on that team.

I don't think other good player necessarily limit scoring unless you have a ton, like Sacramento or Dallas. Obviously it would seem a guy like Dirk would score 30 a game if Nash, Finley, and Van Exel werent there.

But everyone said Tmac would score less with a healthy Hill, and he scored more. Now with Gooden and Giricek, he is blowing up again.

Either you team can be oversaturated with scoring talent, limiting a specific player, or just addition of enough to relax defense on one guy allowing him to score more. That is the way I look at it.


----------



## KingOfTheRock17

You make some good points but the fact remains that none of those guys are shaq. plus the way the lakers play they don't fast break so that minimizes chances to score plus they run the triangle offence wich limits creativity because it is so structured


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>KingOfTheRock17</b>!
> You make some good points but the fact remains that none of those guys are shaq. plus the way the lakers play they don't fast break so that minimizes chances to score plus they run the triangle offence wich limits creativity because it is so structured


Kobe plays outside of the triangle quite often. They may not be Shaq, but i'm pretty sure Nash, Finley, and Van Exel take a lot more shots from Dirk than Shaq takes from Kobe.


----------



## grizzoistight

*dee bo*

relax man..
wait til phil retires and shaq leaves then kobe will be unleashed
i cant wait to see him with some young guys who can run and actually shoot


----------



## JNice

*Re: dee bo*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> relax man..
> wait til phil retires and shaq leaves then kobe will be unleashed
> i cant wait to see him with some young guys who can run and actually shoot


Thanks, but I am completely relaxed.

I can't wait either. I'd love to see Kobe unleashed, scoring 35 a night and going to the lottery for multiple seasons.


----------



## grizzoistight

*haha*

it would be nice to see him gettin eliminated year after year in the first round
maybe people will start callin him tmac


----------



## JNice

*Re: haha*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> it would be nice to see him gettin eliminated year after year in the first round
> maybe people will start callin him tmac


Believe it or not, people are already starting to compare him to Tmac. Who woulda thunk it.


----------



## BigTMacFan

Thought my post from another board might shed some light on the subject...

Yeah, it's another T-Mac/Kobe topic, but I think it's got a better twist. We normally hear this debate in relation to Kobe and Jordan, but I've not seen it done w/ Mcgrady and Kobe. I think most on this board would agree they are great players and quite possibly the two fore runners as far as best SG in the league.

The facts:

Tracy Mcgrady
Career Averages:
19.7 ppg
6.5 rpg
3.8 apg
1.29 spg
1.28 bpg

Kobe Bryant
Career Averages:
21.2 ppg
4.9 rpg
4.1 apg
1.41 spg
.65 bpg

So the way it breaks down:

Career Scoring Average: Kobe by 1.5 ppg
Career Rebounding Average: Mcgrady by 1.6 rpg
Career Assists Average: Kobe by .3 apg
Career Steals Average: Kobe by .12
Career Blocks Average: Mcgrady by .63

So for their career Kobe has the edge statistically, still, not by much.

However, consider that Mcgrady is now playing his 6th NBA season and Kobe his 7th and let's see how it compares.

5th year stats:

Tracy Mcgrady
5th Season Averages
25.6 ppg
7.9 rpg
5.3 apg
1.57 spg
.96 bpg

Kobe Bryant
5th Season Averages
28.5 ppg
5.9 rpg
5.5 apg
1.68 spg
.63 bpg


Basically it boils down to Kobe score 3 more pppg and Mcgrady got 2 more rpg. Pretty close statistically.

Tracy Mcgrady
6th Season Averages:
31.4 ppg
6.8 rpg
5.6 apg
1.64 spg
.79 bpg

Kobe Bryant
6th Season Averages:
25.2 ppg
5.5 rpg
5.5 apg
1.41 spg
.44 bpg

Statistics courtesy of [link=www.nba.com]NBA.com[/link]

Statistically speaking, although they were close in their respective 5th seasons, Mcgrady is better at every stage of the game by their 6th season.

What do you think... Kobe last year or Mcgrady this year? Who is better?

Of course, I realize that rings will be the first factor brought in by those who support Kobe, but I would caution you that that is another benefit of playing with Shaq, just like getting less defensive attention.


----------



## IV

I'd take Kobe last year and any year for that matter. it's not a stat thing when comparing the two. They both are exceptionally gifted atheletes. They do it all, but the intagibles are what sets Kobe apart from Tracy. He got that cool as ice persona. He clutch! thats the guy you would choose to go to if it came a final shot. Also the defense is a difference. You forgot to mention the defensive awards Kobe has tallied over the past three year while Tmac had none.


----------



## BigTMacFan

Good point about the defensive awards. All the rest is speculation.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> Good point about the defensive awards. All the rest is speculation.


Yes. Defense is the only that thing really seperates Kobe and McGrady. Both are exceptional offensive players and can do anything they want on the court. Also TMac has really picked up his intensity level and looks to be close to Kobe in that department. However, until TMac picks up his level of D he'll always be Kobe's inferior.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> Good point about the defensive awards. All the rest is speculation.


I dont think the clutch factor is speculation. Seems to me that I always see Tracy not make the plays in the clutch way more than he does make the play. In fact, I dont remember ever seeing him make that play.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont think the clutch factor is speculation. Seems to me that I always see Tracy not make the plays in the clutch way more than he does make the play. In fact, I dont remember ever seeing him make that play.


He knocked a game winner down on Detroit last year I believe. The reason you don't see it more is because Mcgrady is like Shaq on the Lakers - if it's last second time he draws 3 or so defenders. Kobe gets the benefit of having the defense conserned with Shaq and he's able to get on ESPN for hitting a game winner. But even then it's not as often as people act like. Kobe had a great 4th quarter against the Spurs last year and now he's Reggie Miller or Michael Jordan. Please. Even the Lakers know to go to Big Game Rob when they need a shot to win.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Also TMac has really picked up his intensity level and looks to be close to Kobe in that department. However, until TMac picks up his level of D he'll always be Kobe's inferior.


Whatever. When Mcgrady was in Toronto he was considered a "defensive specialist". Now that he is 90% of his team's offense (before the trade) he had to cut back on D to save some for the other end. Kobe, on the other hand, has Shaq backing him on both ends. He can take a play or two off by throwing it in to Shaq and he can get right up on a player, knowing that if the guy gets a step on him Shaq will rotate over and eat the ball.

Shaq is the best part of Kobe's game.


----------



## grizzoistight

*um the lakers know how to go to big game rob*

um that play against the queens was a fluke play where vlade tipped it out to him.. after kobe had driven to the hoop and collapsed the whole team
kobe hit about 20 huge shots last year in the clutch..
that three horry hit against portland was kobe drove and kicked it.. a la mj to kerr
horry cant create his own shot at all..
and that one play 2 nights ago was another fluke play where the ball bounced to horry and he hit it..
but in the clutch hes the 3rd option


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> He knocked a game winner down on Detroit last year I believe. The reason you don't see it more is because Mcgrady is like Shaq on the Lakers - if it's last second time he draws 3 or so defenders. Kobe gets the benefit of having the defense conserned with Shaq and he's able to get on ESPN for hitting a game winner. But even then it's not as often as people act like. Kobe had a great 4th quarter against the Spurs last year and now he's Reggie Miller or Michael Jordan. Please. Even the Lakers know to go to Big Game Rob when they need a shot to win.


I think you're responding to the wrong person.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>grizzsotight</b>!
> 
> 
> um that play against the queens was a fluke play where vlade tipped it out to him.. after kobe had driven to the hoop and collapsed the whole team
> kobe hit about 20 huge shots last year in the clutch..
> that three horry hit against portland was kobe drove and kicked it.. a la mj to kerr
> horry cant create his own shot at all..
> and that one play 2 nights ago was another fluke play where the ball bounced to horry and he hit it..
> but in the clutch hes the 3rd option


LoL... it happens 100 times and it's a fluke everytime. Rob Horry is the luckiest guy in the world then. I'll give you that he needs to be set up, but the fact remains - he's the Laker's most clutch player.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> Even the Lakers know to go to Big Game Rob when they need a shot to win.


BTW when Horry hit the clutch shot against the Blazers last year do you know who gave it to him: Kobe off of penetration. When Horry hit that last second shot against the Kings do you know who gave it to him: No one actually. Kobe drove to the hoop missed, Shaq missed, and then the ball bounced Horry's way. Last game do you know who got the first crack at beating the Pacers: Kobe Bryant but he was fouled. It isn't like the Lakers give the ball to Horry on purpose. Kobe is the first option, Shaq is second, and when Horry is open he'll get the ball from time to time.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> BTW when Horry hit the clutch shot against the Blazers last year do you know who gave it to him: Kobe off of penetration. When Horry hit that last second shot against the Kings do you know who gave it to him: No one actually. Kobe drove to the hoop missed, Shaq missed, and then the ball bounced Horry's way. Last game do you know who got the first crack at beating the Pacers: Kobe Bryant but he was fouled. It isn't like the Lakers give the ball to Horry on purpose. Kobe is the first option, Shaq is second, and when Horry is open he'll get the ball from time to time.


I would agree again that Horry needs to be set up, but I disagree about him being the 3rd option at crunch time. He's their numero uno weapon under 5 seconds... he doesn't get all those shots by accident, despite what some on here seem to believe.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Whatever. When Mcgrady was in Toronto he was considered a "defensive specialist". Now that he is 90% of his team's offense (before the trade) he had to cut back on D to save some for the other end. Kobe, on the other hand, has Shaq backing him on both ends. He can take a play or two off by throwing it in to Shaq and he can get right up on a player, knowing that if the guy gets a step on him Shaq will rotate over and eat the ball.
> 
> Shaq is the best part of Kobe's game.


When Shaq was out at the beginning of the year it didn't affect Kobe's defense one bit, or his offense for that matter. Sure the Lakers lost alot but Kobe was playing just as well, if not better, than he is right now. The only thing Shaq has helped Kobe get are 3 rings. Kobe is better than TMac with ot w/o Shaq.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> When Shaq was out at the beginning of the year it didn't affect Kobe's defense one bit, or his offense for that matter. Sure the Lakers lost alot but Kobe was playing just as well, if not better, than he is right now. The only thing Shaq has helped Kobe get are 3 rings. Kobe is better than TMac with ot w/o Shaq.


That's absolutely wrong. Kobe's FG percentage dropped during that stretch because of all the extra defensive attention he was getting. And if his defense didn't suffer then why did Allan Houston drop 50 on him? Granted, Houston is a good scorer but Kobe ought to be able to hold him under 50 points.

Yes, Shaq got Kobe rings. No, Kobe is not better that Mcgrady.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> I would agree again that Horry needs to be set up, but I disagree about him being the 3rd option at crunch time. He's their numero uno weapon under 5 seconds... he doesn't get all those shots by accident, despite what some on here seem to believe.


Watch the game son. He is NOT and I repeat NOT their #1 option in crunch time. Look who had the ball in all of those scenarios when Horry hit the game winning shot. Kobe is given the ball and has the opportunity to either create a shot for himself or for his teammates. Sometimes he shoots it and sometimes he passes it. Robert Horry doesn't get the ball because he is a clutch player. If Derek Fisher were wide open and Horry was double teamed Kobe would give the ball to Fisher. The fact is Horry either gets the last second shot inadvertantly or because he;s wide open.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Watch the game son. He is NOT and I repeat NOT their #1 option in crunch time. Look who had the ball in all of those scenarios when Horry hit the game winning shot. Kobe is given the ball and has the opportunity to either create a shot for himself or for his teammates. Sometimes he shoots it and sometimes he passes it. Robert Horry doesn't get the ball because he is a clutch player. If Derek Fisher were wide open and Horry was double teamed Kobe would give the ball to Fisher. The fact is Horry either gets the last second shot inadvertantly or because he;s wide open.


I do watch. And your explanation must be why it is *always* Horry who sinks the shot for the Lakers.

Sure, Kobe has the ball in his hands to create, but they want Rob taking the shot.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> That's absolutely wrong. Kobe's FG percentage dropped during that stretch because of all the extra defensive attention he was getting. And if his defense didn't suffer then why did Allan Houston drop 50 on him? Granted, Houston is a good scorer but Kobe ought to be able to hold him under 50 points.
> 
> Yes, Shaq got Kobe rings. No, Kobe is not better that Mcgrady.


I'm gonna have to straighten you out again aren't I? First of all like I said earlier, watch the freken games. Kobe guarded Allen Houston on one or two plays max! That is it. The rest of the game he was guarded by Derek Fisher and Kareem Rush. Also look at Kobe's FG% the first 5-6 games AFTER Shaq came back. He was still shooting 40% from the floor. The fact is he was shooting the ball poorly at the beginning of the season and that would have continued with or w/o Shaq. Look at Kobe during his 9 game streak of 40+ point games. Shaq missed a couple of those games and yet Kobe managed to shoot over 50% during that entire stretch. Again, that is an aberration. Kobe was hot and he managed to shoot well with and without Shaq. The fact is Kobe is Kobe with or without Shaq. The only thing Shaq HELPED Kobe get are 3 rings.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> I do watch. And your explanation must be why it is *always* Horry who sinks the shot for the Lakers.
> 
> Sure, Kobe has the ball in his hands to create, but they want Rob taking the shot.


No they don't. Against Portland in game 3 in the 2000 playoffs Kobe drove to the basket and dished the ball to a wide open Ron Harper for the game winning shot. In 2001 against San Antonio Kobe dished the ball off to a wide open Shaq under the basket for a game winner. Horry has hit 3 GW shots in the playoffs and Kobe was responsible for him getting 2 of them. Divac was responsible for the other.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm gonna have to straighten you out again aren't I?


You are going to have to try harder than this post if you want to - it's so full of holes I'm having a hard time figuring out where to begin.



> First of all like I said earlier, watch the freken games.


First of all read my post. I do watch the games.



> Kobe guarded Allen Houston on one or two plays max! That is it. The rest of the game he was guarded by Derek Fisher and Kareem Rush.


You prove my point. Kobe had to slack on D because of the burden on his offensive production. Being the best perimiter defender on his team he would have been guarding Houston in order to cool him down. But he couldn't because he needed the energy for the other end of the court.



> Also look at Kobe's FG% the first 5-6 games AFTER Shaq came back. He was still shooting 40% from the floor. The fact is he was shooting the ball poorly at the beginning of the season and that would have continued with or w/o Shaq.


Not true. He shot poorly for the first 15 games. After that it was over.



> Look at Kobe during his 9 game streak of 40+ point games. Shaq missed a couple of those games and yet Kobe managed to shoot over 50% during that entire stretch. Again, that is an aberration. Kobe was hot and he managed to shoot well with and without Shaq. The fact is Kobe is Kobe with or without Shaq. The only thing Shaq HELPED Kobe get are 3 rings.


That's not true either. Kobe's FG% dropped to 41% during the 9 game stretch when Shaq was out. 


Yes, Shaq did get Kobe rings. 


Care to try again?


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> No they don't. Against Portland in game 3 in the 2000 playoffs Kobe drove to the basket and dished the ball to a wide open Ron Harper for the game winning shot. In 2001 against San Antonio Kobe dished the ball off to a wide open Shaq under the basket for a game winner. Horry has hit 3 GW shots in the playoffs and Kobe was responsible for him getting 2 of them. Divac was responsible for the other.


3 GW's in the playoffs, 8 in the last two regular seasons, and it's all sheer luck. Riiight.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> 3 GW's in the playoffs, 8 in the last two regular seasons, and it's all sheer luck. Riiight.


Did I say it was only luck? I said the only time he gets the ball is if he's wide open or the ball magically bounces his way. Twice he WAS wide open and KOBE got him the ball. The other time the ball MAGICALLY bounced his way. The bottom line is that Kobe is our best clutch player and that is why the ball is in his hands and NOT Shaq's and NOT Horry's. Kobe has made about a dozen clutch shots in the playoffs and when he hasn't it has been his penetration that lead to a clutch shot being made.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Did I say it was only luck? I said the only time he gets the ball is if he's wide open or the ball magically bounces his way. Twice he WAS wide open and KOBE got him the ball. The other time the ball MAGICALLY bounced his way. The bottom line is that Kobe is our best clutch player and that is why the ball is in his hands and NOT Shaq's and NOT Horry's. Kobe has made about a dozen clutch shots in the playoffs and when he hasn't it has been his penetration that lead to a clutch shot being made.


Hey dude - I'm all about the idea that Kobe is the play maker. And yeah - could call on the ambiguous "dozen clutch shots" Kobe has made...

Big Game Rob - L.A.'s Last Second Stud.

Oh, btw, yeah - you did say it was luck and you said it again in that post. Notice the word "magically".


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> You prove my point. Kobe had to slack on D because of the burden on his offensive production. Being the best perimiter defender on his team he would have been guarding Houston in order to cool him down. But he couldn't because he needed the energy for the other end of the court.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Latrell Spreewell is hardly a slouch. I think it easier for a slow guy like Rick Fox or Derek Fisher to guard a shooter like Houston than an athletic scorer like Spree. Kobe gets matched up on the opposition's best athlete and in this case it was Spree.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey dude - I'm all about the idea that Kobe is the play maker. And yeah - could call on the ambiguous "dozen clutch shots" Kobe has made...


Ambiguous? Hey if you've got the time then here I go...
In 2000:
-Against Pho in round 1 he hits the GW over Kidd
-Against Ind in the Finals he shot after shot after Shaq fouled out 
and led LA to a win in OT
-Against Sac in games 3 and 4 he scored about 80 points in those
2 games and hit every shot down the stretch
-Against SA in game 1 he scored 45 and hit a bunch or critical 
shots against the Spurs with many in the 4th quarter
-Against SA last year he hit the GW shot with a tip in with 3 secs 
to go
-Against NJ last year he hit the GW in game 3

So that isn't a dozen but this is just what I remember. There were probably countless other shots that he made in crunch time that I can't remember. You've also got to remember the clutch plays he's made overall. The GW passes to guys like Horry and Harper. That lob to Shaq against Port in game 7 which tied the game after we were down by 15. The clutch defensive plays he has made, none of which was better than him blocking Sabonis at the buzzer in the 2000 playoffs.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Latrell Spreewell is hardly a slouch. I think it easier for a slow guy like Rick Fox or Derek Fisher to guard a shooter like Houston than an athletic scorer like Spree. Kobe gets matched up on the opposition's best athlete and in this case it was Spree.


So you are telling me that a coach like Phil Jackson wouldn't switch his best perimiter defender onto the guy that was lighting the team up? Or that Kobe wouldn't make that call himself?

And yeah - could job with coming up with some of those specifics.

It almost gives Kobe as many as Horry has. Almost.


----------



## Obe1Kobe

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> Yes, Shaq got Kobe rings. No, Kobe is not better that Mcgrady.


 First of all, Welcome to the boards TMacFan. It's good to hear from a McGrady fan. For as well as he plays, he should have more TMacfanatics. We all know Kobe has got 'em. 

I do want to ask you, If Shaq got Kobe his rings, who's gonna get TMac his? These are both high caliber players, so if Shaq is the only reason Kobe has those rings, TMac is gonna need somebody right? Point to ponder: When and IF he gets another high caliber player with him and then IF they win the championship, should I say that the other high caliber player got TMac *his* ring, and that's the only reason he has it? Of course.......It's a TEAM game! THEY ALL CONTRIBUTE!!!!


----------



## Yyzlin

Hey, welcome to the boards TMacfan. You seem like a knowledgable fan. Have a good stay here.


----------



## shobe42

*Detective Shobe*



> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> You are going to have to try harder than this post if you want to - it's so full of holes I'm having a hard time figuring out where to begin.


From reading all of these posts I have to say that somebody's argument is definatley full of holes, but it' not pinballs let me show you. 

I pulled this from the evidence

TMACFAN: And if his defense didn't suffer then why did Allan Houston drop 50 on him? Granted, Houston is a good scorer but Kobe ought to be able to hold him under 50 points.

Pinball: First of all like I said earlier, watch the freken games. Kobe guarded Allen Houston on one or two plays max! That is it. The rest of the game he was guarded by Derek Fisher and Kareem Rush. 

TMACFAN: First of all read my post. I do watch the games.
--a little later--
TMACFAN:Kobe had to slack on D because of the burden on his offensive production. Being the best perimiter defender on his team he would have been guarding Houston in order to cool him down. But he couldn't because he needed the energy for the other end of the court.


Hmmm, Shobe the detective detects a bit of a contradiction. You say you watch the games and saw Houston scorch Kobe, yet then when Pinball corrects you, you blame Kobe for not guarding Houston.

Well you did one of two things:
1) Lied, you really don't watch the games. which Im inclinedto believe seeing that you ORIGINALLY based this argument purely on stats, which also shows little understanding of the game.

--or--
2) You don't watch the games very carefully, which wouldn't surprise me either, and that basically discredits you.

You choose which mistake you did. Then get back to me.
By the way, welcome to BasketballBoards.Net.

Have A Nice Day!


----------



## shobe42

*On The Whole Clutch Thing*

Lets start with a quote: 
"It's like Having Michael Jordan." -Greg Popovich on Kobes 4th quarter play against his team.

Pinball didn't list: Kobes game winner v. NO last year or v. Dallas this year.


The GMs picked Kobe as the #1 player they'd like in the clutch.


"The play was designed for Kobe to go against the "Kobe Stopper" and get to the basket. He found me open and trusted me to take the shot" -Robert Horry on the last play v. Portland in 2002 playoffs. 


In that game by the way Kobe made a three right off the inbounds to put the team in reach. Reminiscent of MJs three against NY in the 1996 finals. (a game which Chi ended up losing)



Oh heres some good news for me: In Game 7 against Portland in the 2000 playoffs, the biggest game of Kobes life up to that point, my boy KB dropped a *triple-double* on Portland. He was twenty.


If you believe Horrys game 4 three v.s. Sac was a drawn out play you have some serious dillemas.


Game 3 Lakers v. Spurs 2002 playoffs. Kobe outscores *the entire spurs team* in the fourth quarter.
Now thats a choke artist if I've ever seen one.


Sixers Game 3 2001. Kobe hit a shot that gave LAL thew lead with less than a min. and Shaq on the bench.


One more quote for your enlightenment: 
Reporter after Spurs series: "Kobe does anything scare you in the 4th quarter?"

Kobe: "No"


ooh it hurts to be this good.

And By the Way, Welcome to BasketballBoards.Net


----------



## Pinball

*Re: On The Whole Clutch Thing*



> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> Lets start with a quote:
> "It's like Having Michael Jordan." -Greg Popovich on Kobes 4th quarter play against his team.
> 
> Pinball didn't list: Kobes game winner v. NO last year or v. Dallas this year.
> 
> 
> The GMs picked Kobe as the #1 player they'd like in the clutch.
> 
> 
> "The play was designed for Kobe to go against the "Kobe Stopper" and get to the basket. He found me open and trusted me to take the shot" -Robert Horry on the last play v. Portland in 2002 playoffs.
> 
> 
> In that game by the way Kobe made a three right off the inbounds to put the team in reach. Reminiscent of MJs three against NY in the 1996 finals. (a game which Chi ended up losing)
> 
> 
> 
> Oh heres some good news for me: In Game 7 against Portland in the 2000 playoffs, the biggest game of Kobes life up to that point, my boy KB dropped a *triple-double* on Portland. He was twenty.
> 
> 
> If you believe Horrys game 4 three v.s. Sac was a drawn out play you have some serious dillemas.
> 
> 
> Game 3 Lakers v. Spurs 2002 playoffs. Kobe outscores *the entire spurs team* in the fourth quarter.
> Now thats a choke artist if I've ever seen one.
> 
> 
> Sixers Game 3 2001. Kobe hit a shot that gave LAL thew lead with less than a min. and Shaq on the bench.
> 
> 
> One more quote for your enlightenment:
> Reporter after Spurs series: "Kobe does anything scare you in the 4th quarter?"
> 
> Kobe: "No"
> 
> 
> ooh it hurts to be this good.
> 
> And By the Way, Welcome to BasketballBoards.Net


Got to go but before I do I must say that was well put. :clap:


----------



## shobe42

*One more intersting dialog between Pinball and TMACFAN*

Pinball: Look at Kobe during his 9 game streak of 40+ point games. Shaq missed a couple of those games and yet Kobe managed to shoot over 50% during that entire stretch. 

TMACFAN: That's not true either. Kobe's FG% dropped to 41% during the 9 game stretch when Shaq was out. 

Sorry, TMACFAN but thats not true either.

Shaq was out for 12 and 3 games. Never 9. What were you referring to?

If you were watching you may have noticed Kobe scored 9 straight 40 pt. games. He shot over 50% during that time.
Shaq missed 3 of those games. Thats what Pinball was refering to.



And on the Houston thing: I didn't see that game and am not one to judge who guarded who, but I will say that it's common knowledge that excellent offense gets excellent defense nine times out of ten.

When Kobe was on that tear nobody could stop him. Actually 4 people at once didn't even come close to stopping him (thats fact)

If somebody is going to score 50 efficently they'll do it on Kobe, MJ, Spud Webb, or Bill Russel. And possibly a combination. 

If you are trying to prove Kobes a weak defender that isn't very good proof.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> From reading all of these posts I have to say that somebody's argument is definatley full of holes, but it' not pinballs let me show you.
> 
> I pulled this from the evidence
> 
> TMACFAN: And if his defense didn't suffer then why did Allan Houston drop 50 on him? Granted, Houston is a good scorer but Kobe ought to be able to hold him under 50 points.
> 
> Pinball: First of all like I said earlier, watch the freken games. Kobe guarded Allen Houston on one or two plays max! That is it. The rest of the game he was guarded by Derek Fisher and Kareem Rush.
> 
> TMACFAN: First of all read my post. I do watch the games.
> --a little later--
> TMACFAN:Kobe had to slack on D because of the burden on his offensive production. Being the best perimiter defender on his team he would have been guarding Houston in order to cool him down. But he couldn't because he needed the energy for the other end of the court.
> 
> 
> Hmmm, Shobe the detective detects a bit of a contradiction. You say you watch the games and saw Houston scorch Kobe, yet then when Pinball corrects you, you blame Kobe for not guarding Houston.
> 
> Well you did one of two things:
> 1) Lied, you really don't watch the games. which Im inclinedto believe seeing that you ORIGINALLY based this argument purely on stats, which also shows little understanding of the game.
> 
> --or--
> 2) You don't watch the games very carefully, which wouldn't surprise me either, and that basically discredits you.
> .


I'm talking strategy there. No, I don't watch every Lakers game because I don't have Full Court and the NY game was one of them. Still, I catch about every L.A. game on national t.v.

Your "detective work" is nothing but semantics. The point is that either Kobe isn't as good of a defender or he was being lazy and didn't pick up Allan.


----------



## shobe42

*Re: One more intersting dialog between Pinball and TMACFAN*



> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> And on the Houston thing: I didn't see that game and am not one to judge who guarded who, but I will say that it's common knowledge that excellent offense gets excellent defense nine times out of ten.
> 
> When Kobe was on that tear nobody could stop him. Actually 4 people at once didn't even come close to stopping him (thats fact)
> 
> If somebody is going to score 50 efficently they'll do it on Kobe, MJ, Spud Webb, or Bill Russel. And possibly a combination.
> 
> If you are trying to prove Kobes a weak defender that isn't very good proof.


Please read this. You claimed to have watched the NY game and you failed to respond to anything else in my post. What about the clutch thing.*any* *any of my last three posts.* What about the clutch thing.


----------



## BigTMacFan

*Re: Re: One more intersting dialog between Pinball and TMACFAN*



> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> 
> 
> Please read this. You claimed to have watched the NY game and you failed to respond to anything else in my post. What about the clutch thing.*any* *any of my last three posts.* What about the clutch thing.


Where did I claim I watched the NY game? I said "I do watch the games". I know you are really trying hard for your Sherlock Holmes merit badge but your going to have to quit - it isn't working for you.

And what about the clutch thing - well, I wasn't ever trying to argue about Kobe being clutch. I think the kid has the mentality to be quite a game in the 4th, although I also think that he is better as a set-up man/distributor/playmaker on the current Lakers squad. I believe that is how Phil Jackson sees him as well, considering Robert Horry's highlight reel over the last 2 seasons.


----------



## Pinball

*Re: Re: Re: One more intersting dialog between Pinball and TMACFAN*



> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> I believe that is how Phil Jackson sees him as well, considering Robert Horry's highlight reel over the last 2 seasons.


Of course. That play against Sac last year was by design. Kobe drove to the basket and missed the shot on purpose, then Shaq made sure he missed an easy put back. This way the ball would go out to Horry and he'd nail the 3. Man what a great play! However, someone should tell Shaq and Kobe that it is easier to just pass the ball to Rob rather than run a complex play like that.


----------



## philipm27

Just a little FYI for people who think that Kobe is not a good defender. Over the last 15 games, before the Wolves games, this is what Kobe has done:


0.464530892 FG%	39.26666667 PPG	5.266666667 RPG 3.666666667 APG


This is what Kobe's opponents accomplished during that streak, and this includes the NYK game that everyone is so fixated on:

0.431818182 FG%	17.86666667 PPG	4.933333333 RPG	3.6 APG

Notice, that even with the outstanding games that Houston and Ray Allen had against the Lakers, in the 15 games played before the game last night against Minnesota, the cumulative FG% and PPG were lower than Kobe's. And while 3% may not seem like a lot, it can be the difference in a game, and the Lakers did pretty well during that time, as well. Not to mention the fact that Kobe scored MORE THAN TWICE as many points as his opponents' did for an ENTIRE MONTH.

That is at the very least, very solid defense.



:yes:


----------



## beautifulkobe

There are 5 things that kobe does better then tmac 

1. His defense.Tmac has never gotten any defensive awards or praise for his defense.Peeple blow by him all the time.Steals do matter here and kobe is 3rd in that department.Tmac isnt in the top 10.

2.Kobe is a much better passer.Ive watched the majority of magic games this year and granted tmac is a good passer but not as good as kobe is.I didnt think kobe was that good of a passer until this year where he really improved in that area.He makes jason kidd type passes.Kobe makes a lot of creative passes behind his back or his head,bounce passes in the open court etc.I have not seen tmac do the above.Maybe he has and I missed it.But from what Ive seen he isnt as creative as kobe when it comes to passing.Im sure hell be a better passer in the future.

3.I think tmac is a more efficient scorer then kobe,but he isnt as creative as kobe when it comes to shots.Tmac usually pulls up for an easy jumper or 3 and takes it to the hole and sometimes does some entertaining moves here and there.But kobe is hands down way more creative with his shots.He has about a million moves in his arsenal whether its faking or driving .He just throws up these off balance shots that wouldn't go in for anyone except kobe.Its actually pretty remarkable and exciting to watch.He makes impossible shots over the best defenders in the league.
Thats one of the reasons why tmac is more efficient cause he isnt a big risk taker like kobe when it comes to shots.His offense is more smooth.

4.Clutch:Thats already been discussed.Tmac has made big shots but hasnt stepped up like kobe in the crunch.Dallas game is a perfect example of why kobe is more clutch.Kobe is the lakers go to guy in crunch time and he has come up big a lot of times especially in the playoffs.Horry usually gets the ball from a kobe miss or pass.Its kobes time do what he wants with it.


5.Dunking:Kobe is a sick dunker this year from his baseline move on sprewell to his 360 against the nuggets he is a better dunker and also more creative dunker then tmac.


Kobe is just more creative then tmac in lots of areas in the game.He has more fundementals,better work ethic,desire and is smarter.

Tmac doesnt turn the ball over as much as kobe and is a bit more explosive on his first step cause of his length.More smoother then kobe on his shots and uh thats really all tmac does better then kobe in my opinion.





Both are great players but I still think tmac isnt as good or better then kobe.


----------



## TheRifleman

<b>Pinball: 
First of all like I said earlier, watch the freken games. Kobe guarded Allen Houston on one or two plays max! That is it. The rest of the game he was guarded by Derek Fisher and Kareem Rush. </b>

Well then I'd have to say: What a major mistake by the coach of the Lakers!!


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> Well then I'd have to say: What a major mistake by the coach of the Lakers!!


The thing with Kobe is that his defensive responsibilities vary greatly from game to game (like alot of players). If we're playing a great offensive team like Sac or Dall he'll usually start off on a weak offensive player. Then in the 4th quarter Phil will switch him on to a their best perimeter player. If we're playing a weak offensive team Kobe will usually start off on the best perimeter player because we won't need him to score as much. In the New York game the thing you have to remember is that Kobe got hurt just before halftime and spent much of the second half in and out of the game getting treatment. I believe he started the 4th quarter on the bench so he couldn't really guard Houston at that point. When he did come in though he was limping around on that bad knee so I don't think PJ wanted to put him on Houston.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> The thing with Kobe is that his defensive responsibilities vary greatly from game to game (like alot of players). If we're playing a great offensive team like Sac or Dall he'll usually start off on a weak offensive player. Then in the 4th quarter Phil will switch him on to a their best perimeter player. If we're playing a weak offensive team Kobe will usually start off on the best perimeter player because we won't need him to score as much.


You just agreed to everything I posted earlier. TMac doesn't have as much energy on D because of his output on O. You said the opposite about Kobe - that in a game he doesn't need to score as much he plays the better defender.



> In the New York game the thing you have to remember is that Kobe got hurt just before halftime and spent much of the second half in and out of the game getting treatment. I believe he started the 4th quarter on the bench so he couldn't really guard Houston at that point. When he did come in though he was limping around on that bad knee so I don't think PJ wanted to put him on Houston.


Funny, he played 42 minutes, 1 less that Houston did.

New York/Los Angeles February 16th Game


----------



## Vintage

We could just say that both are great players........:yes: 

And leave it at that


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> We could just say that both are great players........:yes:
> 
> And leave it at that


That will never happen. Hecht, MJ and Dominik are great players, but one clearly had a greater career than the other. 
Poor Dominik fans


----------



## BigTMacFan

> That will never happen. Hecht, MJ and Dominik are great players, but one clearly had a greater career than the other.
> Poor Dominik fans


Yeah - I hate it for Kobe fans for the same reason. Kobe's got a head start, but it'll work itself out in the years to come.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah - I hate it for Kobe fans for the same reason. Kobe's got a head start, but it'll work itself out in the years to come.


How does Kobe have a head start? Are you implying that Kobe's ability to impress his coaches into starting him at the age of 18 has something to do with anything other than his talent. Is his talent his head start? Are you admitting that he is better? Its gonna work itself out in year to come? Is Kobe's talent going to diminish as Tracys gets better? :laugh: sorry I tried to avoid laughing. Ahem! Do you think Kobe is the Ken Griffey Jr of baseball? 

Just a little Q&A!


----------



## The Krakken

IV I assume he is referring to Rings.....

And check your PM's...


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> How does Kobe have a head start? <b>Are you implying that Kobe's ability to impress his coaches into<u> starting him at the age of 18 </u>has something to do with anything other than his talent. </b> Is his talent his head start? Are you admitting that he is better? Its gonna work itself out in year to come? Is Kobe's talent going to diminish as Tracys gets better? :laugh: sorry I tried to avoid laughing. Ahem! Do you think Kobe is the Ken Griffey Jr of baseball?
> 
> Just a little Q&A!


I believe my memory serves me correctly and that E. Jones was the <b>"STARTING" #2 guard</b> that particular year. If Kobe was the starter, then his minutes were diminished, as was his PPG.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> I believe my memory serves me correctly and that E. Jones was the <b>"STARTING" #2 guard</b> that particular year. If Kobe was the starter, then his minutes were diminished, as was his PPG.


Eddie Jones was the regular starter during Kobe's first 2 years in the league. He played sparingly as a rookie and was the sixth man during his second year. He started here and there when someone got hurt but usually came off the bench.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> 
> 1. His defense.Tmac has never gotten any defensive awards or praise for his defense.Peeple blow by him all the time.Steals do matter here and kobe is 3rd in that department.Tmac isnt in the top 10.



Kobe's defense is overrated and the team's success and the fact that he plays on a team and in a market that is always focused on has led to those defensive awards. If Kobe had been playing on Cleveland the last 5 years, I doubt he would have any awards. This is the first season that Kobe has had a lead on Tmac in any defensive category and I believe that Tmac is WELL ahead of Kobe in blocked shots as far as career stats.. and he is a year behind him in years played. I believe he is also ahead on Kobe for their careers in steals. Not to mention that Orlando has been playing mostly some form of zone defense this season, which is probably why Tmac's defensive stats have declined. Plus Kobe is not leading him by about .7 steals per game and .1 blocks per game. Hardly decisive numbers.



> 2.Kobe is a much better passer.Ive watched the majority of magic games this year and granted tmac is a good passer but not as good as kobe is.I didnt think kobe was that good of a passer until this year where he really improved in that area.He makes jason kidd type passes.Kobe makes a lot of creative passes behind his back or his head,bounce passes in the open court etc.I have not seen tmac do the above.Maybe he has and I missed it.But from what Ive seen he isnt as creative as kobe when it comes to passing.Im sure hell be a better passer in the future.


Are we talking about style here? As long as the ball gets to where it is going and into the intended players hands, it is a good pass. If not, Jason Williams would be headed to the HOF. Kobe may be more "creative" but that doesn't make him a better passer. Tmac's career assists numbers are right on par with Kobe's career assists number if you add an average season onto Tmac's stats since he is one season behind, and Kobe is already well ahead of Tmac as far as TO's go.




> 3.I think tmac is a more efficient scorer then kobe,but he isnt as creative as kobe when it comes to shots.Tmac usually pulls up for an easy jumper or 3 and takes it to the hole and sometimes does some entertaining moves here and there.But kobe is hands down way more creative with his shots.He has about a million moves in his arsenal whether its faking or driving .He just throws up these off balance shots that wouldn't go in for anyone except kobe.Its actually pretty remarkable and exciting to watch.He makes impossible shots over the best defenders in the league.
> Thats one of the reasons why tmac is more efficient cause he isnt a big risk taker like kobe when it comes to shots.His offense is more smooth.


That is like saying Shaq isnt creative enough. Tmac doesnt have to make "impossible" shots, because he is so good at getting easy shots. He has the luxury of being taller and longer than Kobe, so he can easily shoot a jumper over just about anyone. It is much more impressive to me to watch Tmac do it and make it look easy than for Kobe to do all sorts of crazy moves and make it look harder. Either way, your analysis is completely objective... doesnt matter how you make it look, if you score, you score..



> 4.Clutch:Thats already been discussed.Tmac has made big shots but hasnt stepped up like kobe in the crunch.Dallas game is a perfect example of why kobe is more clutch.Kobe is the lakers go to guy in crunch time and he has come up big a lot of times especially in the playoffs.Horry usually gets the ball from a kobe miss or pass.Its kobes time do what he wants with it.


Not much argument here, except that Tmac's "inability" in the clutch is way overblown. I have seen him beat other teams in overtime periods completely by himself.. but most people don't see that as being clutch.. People like to base this argument on one steal by Baron Davis. Kobe has been pretty clutch, but he has also had 100 more opportunities to do so and to learn from.



> 5.Dunking:Kobe is a sick dunker this year from his baseline move on sprewell to his 360 against the nuggets he is a better dunker and also more creative dunker then tmac.


This means nothing at all. If it did, VC would be the best player in the league. 



> Kobe is just more creative then tmac in lots of areas in the game.He has more fundementals,better work ethic,desire and is smarter.



Who are you, or we, to be able to measure either player's desire or "smarts" ... Kobe could have an IQ of 200, but that doesnt make him a better basketball player. I don't see where Kobe is ahead of Tmac on any level as far as fundamentals go. And work ethic, both players have a very strong work ethic... both have worked extremely hard to improve their games and their bodies over the last few years. Tmac and Kobe were both beanpoles coming into the league, and both now have impressive frames.


----------



## grizzoistight

*anyone else notice*

that ever since phil put kobe on iverson.. hes been a lock down??


----------



## ChiBron

^^ Kobe hardly guarded AI in today's game, unless u were watching a diff. game grizzo. Kobe was on AI only on a couple of possessions. AI just had a typical game tonight. Forcing shots, missing easy shots and that leads to another one of his bad shooting nights. Its really a norm for him.

Anyway, nice victory for LA. Shaq's play in the past 10 games or so will hurt Kobe's mvp chances. The big man is starting to take control.


----------



## grizzoistight

*i did watch the game*

kobe guarded ai the whole 4th quater
abc even did a highlite reel of it.. showing kobes great defensive plays


----------



## ChiBron

ABC did a highlight reel of Kobe's defensive plays. NOT his defense on AI, whom he hardly guarded today. Watch what u see, not what u WANT to see.


----------



## grizzoistight

*man*

im ready for someone else to chime in..
they did 2 highlite reels.. one with kobes blocks etc
and at the end they did one about how ai was frustrated cuz kobe was shuttin him down.. then bill walton compared kobes defense to mj


----------



## IV

*haters can't even hate!*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> that ever since phil put kobe on iverson.. hes been a lock down??


Nothing like overated defense to shutdown one of the league best scorers. 

I saw the highlight reel too, he was all over AI. He would even let him get the ball and when he did the defense was superb. I wonder what those who think his D is overated think when they see these things? Could someone please tell me?

A hater can't even hate on his defense yesterday. I was watching the game with hater and he had to give it up. Kobe was all over the court, blocking shots, getting steals, manning up!


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> ABC did a highlight reel of Kobe's defensive plays. NOT his defense on AI, whom he hardly guarded today. *Watch what u see, not what u WANT to see.*


That's good advice SP. :yes: Try following it. 

Okay, okay..... maybe you didnt see that highlight reel, so your natural reaction would be to hate, but ABC did run a highlight reel on Kobe's lock down on AI. C'mon somebody who does not like Kobe keep it real and say you saw the highlight.


----------



## 33

I have been a critic to Kobe and his overrated defense, but in the game against Philly, Kobe play excellent defense throughtout the game. I'm known as a Kobe "hater" to some people because I don't worship his every move, but I love the game of basketball. You can't hate on good play and as much as it hurts to say, Kobe played a hell of a defensive game against Philly. I haven't really seen him do that all season, but he did it in that game. That's enough props for Kobe for the day


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> I have been a critic to Kobe and his overrated defense, but in the game against Philly, Kobe play excellent defense throughtout the game. *I'm known as a Kobe "hater" to some people because I don't worship his every move,* but I love the game of basketball. You can't hate on good play and as much as it hurts to say, Kobe played a hell of a defensive game against Philly. I haven't really seen him do that all season, but he did it in that game. That's enough props for Kobe for the day


That's good stuff 33! way to keep it real, I can respect that. 

But dont make it seem like you've been labeled a Kobe hater. You are selfproclaimed.



> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> I am a Kobe hater and although he is one of the top 3 players in the league, I just don't like him. I don't like player who play like other players without adding thier own flavor to that particular style.


You wrote that in the Portland forum last week. Thread title, Blazer weaknesses. :grinning:


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## 33

I just said I am a Kate Hater, you don't have to do research on me to figure that out. That's not to say he is a bum because he isn't, I just don't like him.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> I'm known as a Kobe "hater" to some people because I don't worship his every move


That's not why you are known as a Kobe hater. You are known as a Kobe hater because of the aforementioned quote.


----------



## Tragedy

I haven't read all of the replies... so i dont know if anything i will say has been said...

Kobe is the best INDIVIDUAL player in the league... hands down...

meaning he can score as he pleases... but when he does... it oftentimes takes many of his teammates out the game...

I have yet to see Kobe get a triple double while scoring 40 points... as McGrady did...

not to mention.. McGrady is his own player... finding his own niche in the league... whereas Kobe has his own blueprint of who he wants to be.. Jordan... not saying there's anything wrong wit that... but it still seperates the two players...

i also believe McGrady is a more natural talent than Kobe... Kobe works real hard on his game... spends time in the weight room... watches how he speaks, dresses... 

McGrady ... if you see... probably barely works out... you can tell by his lean physique... he reminds me of Paul Pierce in that aspect... 

McGrady, until the recent trade, was practically forced to carry a team... if **** gets too hectic for Bryant... he pushes the ball inside to Shaq...

dont get me wrong, i like Kobe's game... but if it came down to it... i would choose McGrady over Kobe...

by the way...
Kobe's rocking Penny's rings... haha


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Tragedy</b>!
> Kobe is the best INDIVIDUAL player in the league... hands down...
> 
> *but*
> 
> dont get me wrong, i like Kobe's game... if it came down to it... i would choose McGrady over Kobe...


That's very confusing Tragedy. Kobe is better than Tmac but you would choose Tmac over Kobe if it came down to it. 



> I have yet to see Kobe get a triple double while scoring 40 points... as McGrady did...


I dont think that Tmac could have a triple double scoring 40+points with a teammate that gets upset and wont play hard unless you give him the ball. The object of the game is to win. The W is more important than a triple double.



> not to mention.. McGrady is his own player... finding his own niche in the league... whereas Kobe has his own blueprint of who he wants to be.. Jordan... not saying there's anything wrong wit that... but it still seperates the two players...


Kobe is a blueprint of more than just MJ, he's got the playing ability of Magic, and can shoot the three ball way better than Jordan. 

Tmac, on the other hand, has his own blueprint of who he wants to be..... Kobe Bryant. All of a sudden Tracy has become this media friendly guy posting the numbers that are being compared to Kobe. Tmac can't fake the charisma. If he loses in the first round again after heisting his teammates out, he's show his true colors just as he did last year. Can you belive his PR trying to mold him into someone he is not. 



> i also believe McGrady is a more natural talent than Kobe... Kobe works real hard on his game... spends time in the weight room... watches how he speaks, dresses...


Kobe has been a star his whole life from National High School player of the year, to NBA champion! Tmac has had three standout years in professional sports and he has more natural talent than a guy who has been on top since the beginning?



> McGrady, until the recent trade, was practically forced to carry a team


Whats the difference in this years Orlando team and last years Orlando team. The answer is this year Magic is squeaking into the playoffs. Its funny how last year the "team" finished 4th in the conference and Tmac was given credit for completely carring that team by himself, and this year they are squeaking by, his numbers have risen, and he's still doing it all by himself. I might by that excuse this year, but last year?...... that team was better than "Tmac fan" will admit.



> ... if **** gets too hectic for Bryant... he pushes the ball inside to Shaq...


Isn't it easier to say that when things get hectic Shaq is the one pushing the ball to Bryant? Where did Kobe get that clutch reputation from anyway? Isn't he the fourth quarter guy? Isn't he the one finishing close games for LA while Shaq is watching? 



> by the way...
> Kobe's rocking Penny's rings... haha


Nah playa! Kobe earned those rings which is something Penny and Shaq weren't able to do. Everyone is always riddling Kobe about being able to win a ring without Shaq? We know that Shaq could not win a rings without Kobe, so lets just give Kobe a chance to win without Shaq. Shaq got 7 attempts and couldnt do it, doesn't Bryant deserve at least one chance?

BTW, Tmac is definately rocking Penny's jersey! :laugh:....haha


----------



## BigTMacFan

> That's very confusing Tragedy. Kobe is better than Tmac but you would choose Tmac over Kobe if it came down to it.


It's confusing because you didn't quote the whole post - he said Mcgrady has more upside. 



> I dont think that Tmac could have a triple double scoring 40+points with a teammate that gets upset and wont play hard unless you give him the ball. The object of the game is to win. The W is more important than a triple double.


Mcgrady doesn't have a teammate that has the right to get upset about lack of touches. It's insane that Shaquille O'Neal, the most dominant force in modern basketball, has to call attention to his touches. 



> Kobe is a blueprint of more than just MJ, he's got the playing ability of Magic, and can shoot the three ball way better than Jordan.
> 
> Tmac, on the other hand, has his own blueprint of who he wants to be..... Kobe Bryant. All of a sudden Tracy has become this media friendly guy posting the numbers that are being compared to Kobe. Tmac can't fake the charisma. If he loses in the first round again after heisting his teammates out, he's show his true colors just as he did last year. Can you belive his PR trying to mold him into someone he is not.


Riiiight... as if Kobe cares anything about Magic and doesn't live his life to enter Jordan's class.

Now on to Mcgrady. I find it insane that you talk about charisma w/ Kobe and then act as if Mcgrady wants to emulate it. When has Kobe ever been considered charismatic? When has he made an all-interview team. Kobe has a horrible rep around the league w/ the media - that's an established fact.

Now, let's talk about Mcgrady. When was the last time Kobe went out of his way to impact the life of a fan like Ida Brown (and don't give me crap about "Kobe does it in secret. (1) Mcgrady tried to. (2) We know everything that Kobe does - if he pulled something like that ESPN would do an entire Sportscenter dedicated to it)? Or what about Mcgrady sending money to that family in Atlanta, the one in which the man of the house is shipping out with the military and the family needed some $$$ to get by? You know, the ones he brought up to Atlanta for All-Star weekend. Kobe's charisma  :laugh: Despite the arguements you make about their game Mcgrady is already twice the *man* Kobe is. 



> Kobe has been a star his whole life from National High School player of the year, to NBA champion! Tmac has had three standout years in professional sports and he has more natural talent than a guy who has been on top since the beginning?


Kobe's past has nothing to do with either one's potential? Why even bring that up? By that logic Christian Laettner should have the most potential in the NBA. 


> Whats the difference in this years Orlando team and last years Orlando team. The answer is this year Magic is squeaking into the playoffs. Its funny how last year the "team" finished 4th in the conference and Tmac was given credit for completely carring that team by himself, and this year they are squeaking by, his numbers have risen, and he's still doing it all by himself. I might by that excuse this year, but last year?...... that team was better than "Tmac fan" will admit.


The difference? Darrell Armstrong is now 35 and no longer starting. The 2nd point guard on the team? Not Troy Hudson, who is doing a good job as the starting PG in Minnesota - but none other than Jacque Vaughn. Yeah, that Jacque Vaughn. (Up until Whitney signed a week ago) Also - because he and Rivers couldn't get along they no longer have Horace Grant. So this year's team was *less* talented than last years, as sad as that is. (before the trade)



> Isn't it easier to say that when things get hectic Shaq is the one pushing the ball to Bryant? Where did Kobe get that clutch reputation from anyway? Isn't he the fourth quarter guy? Isn't he the one finishing close games for LA while Shaq is watching?


I'm not sure which is easier to say, but the fact of the matter is that if things get tough it's going to be in Shaq's hands. Anyone half way up the food chain can figure that out. And where did Kobe get that clutch reputation? His "clutch reputation" is over rated - existing primarily amongst Kobe cultists. Granted, he has 2 good 4th quarters against the Spurs in the playoffs but that isn't enough to sell me on his "clutch ability". Big Game Rob is L.A.'s last second weapon - although I will give you that Kobe is usually the one passing it to him (Props to Kobe - he's a great set- up man, except when he's ignoring Shaq for personal glory). Let me ask you this - if Kobe is so "clutch" then why is Robert Horry always the one with the last second shot? Kobe does the get the ball at the end, but with the clear instruction to get it to Horry. 



> by the way...
> Kobe's rocking Penny's rings... haha


That could be the best quote I've seen in a while. Should go in someone's sig...



> Nah playa! Kobe earned those rings which is something Penny and Shaq weren't able to do. Everyone is always riddling Kobe about being able to win a ring without Shaq? We know that Shaq could not win a rings without Kobe, so lets just give Kobe a chance to win without Shaq. Shaq got 7 attempts and couldnt do it, doesn't Bryant deserve at least one chance?


Who knows that "Shaq could not win rings without Kobe"? Speak for yourself pall. I've of the opinion that Shaq could have the exact same dynasty with 10 or so other players in the league currently filling Kobe's position. Kobe's a nice addition to Shaq, but come on - Shaq's the foundation, Kobe's the window dressing.



> BTW, Tmac is definately rocking Penny's jersey! ....haha


Yup - Penny was Mcgrady's favorite player growing up.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Mcgrady doesn't have a teammate that has the right to get upset about lack of touches. It's insane that Shaquille O'Neal, the most dominant force in modern basketball, has to call attention to his touches.


Agreed TMac does not have a teammate that has the right to upset. But Shaq is actually still getting touchesabide 3 fewer than his MVP campaign. He is averaging 18 shots per game. The problem with Shaq is that he is the most dominant WHEN he wants to be. He is lazy and very egocentric. Truth is also Kobe would probably be averaging 35 ppg if he didn't play alongside Shaq or have another teammate asking for more touches. But then Kobe probably wouldn't have the rings...but even that would be a question. Imagine if this lineup was sill kept and Kobe played like he played today.

C Elden Campbell
PF Horry
SF Kobe (Would play SF/SG)
SG Jones
PG Van Exel

That could be a championship team.



> Riiiight... as if Kobe cares anything about Magic and doesn't live his life to enter Jordan's class.


Disagree. Kobe does care about the history of the game and HE DOES care about Magic. Magic has helped Kobe grow as a player. Kobe doesn't live to enter Jordan's class....that's ludracirs. Kobe's drive is to be the best player ever...and that puts him in Jordan's class. Kobe doesn't want to be like Mike...the media has build him up to be like Mike not Kobe. Their games are not the same...seriously. 



> Now on to Mcgrady. I find it insane that you talk about charisma w/ Kobe and then act as if Mcgrady wants to emulate it. When has Kobe ever been considered charismatic? When has he made an all-interview team. Kobe has a horrible rep around the league w/ the media - that's an established fact.


Just because Kobe does not want to talk about his private life doesn't mean he isn't a good interview. Just because Kobe doesn't yell crap like Barkley doesn't make him a good interview. Kobe's interviews are precise and NOT rehearsed like people claim. He just says as little as possible. Kobe is rather charismatic...he's been on TV shows and even cut a crappy rap album. Kobe does not have a horrible rep with media...media loves this guy that is why he gets amazing coverage. Anyways I rather have an all-nba player than an all-interview. If I wanted that I just go get Oak.



> Now, let's talk about Mcgrady. When was the last time Kobe went out of his way to impact the life of a fan like Ida Brown (and don't give me crap about "Kobe does it in secret. (1) Mcgrady tried to. (2) We know everything that Kobe does - if he pulled something like that ESPN would do an entire Sportscenter dedicated to it)? Or what about Mcgrady sending money to that family in Atlanta, the one in which the man of the house is shipping out with the military and the family needed some $$$ to get by? You know, the ones he brought up to Atlanta for All-Star weekend. Kobe's charisma  :laugh: Despite the arguements you make about their game Mcgrady is already twice the *man* Kobe is.


First of all TMac did it becuz the kid's favorite player is TMac and he just got shot by those IDIOT snipers. I give kudos to TMac for doing that and his other charitable acts. Kobe actually does alot of charitable things. He has paricipated in a lot of charity games and often auctions off his autograph jerseys and stuff for charity. Is TMac twice the man Kobe is? How do I know? How should you know? Kobe does a lot of charity events that are less publicized. This is an ignorant statement you should have just said TMac did great things like for the kid and the family. No one would disagree with u there but to attack Kobe using TMac's charity is :no: and immature.



> Kobe's past has nothing to do with either one's potential? Why even bring that up? By that logic Christian Laettner should have the most potential in the NBA.


Agreed. 



> The difference? Darrell Armstrong is now 35 and no longer starting. The 2nd point guard on the team? Not Troy Hudson, who is doing a good job as the starting PG in Minnesota - but none other than Jacque Vaughn. Yeah, that Jacque Vaughn. (Up until Whitney signed a week ago) Also - because he and Rivers couldn't get along they no longer have Horace Grant. So this year's team was *less* talented than last years, as sad as that is. (before the trade)


Agreed before the trade and after Hill's reinjury.



> I'm not sure which is easier to say, but the fact of the matter is that if things get tough it's going to be in Shaq's hands. Anyone half way up the food chain can figure that out. And where did Kobe get that clutch reputation? His "clutch reputation" is over rated - existing primarily amongst Kobe cultists. Granted, he has 2 good 4th quarters against the Spurs in the playoffs but that isn't enough to sell me on his "clutch ability". Big Game Rob is L.A.'s last second weapon - although I will give you that Kobe is usually the one passing it to him (Props to Kobe - he's a great set- up man, except when he's ignoring Shaq for personal glory). Let me ask you this - if Kobe is so "clutch" then why is Robert Horry always the one with the last second shot? Kobe does the get the ball at the end, but with the clear instruction to get it to Horry.


Kobe is the Laker's clutch man. The ball goes into his hand in clutch situations not Shaq's. Horry is a clutch shooter not a clutch player. He only receives the pass and shoots it. Kobe is the Laker's clutch player if they are close in the final 5 minutes. No question about it there. His clutch is not overrated I look at what Kobe has done in the playoffs when Shaq was "hack-a-shaqed".
Reggie Miller is the ultimate clutch right now.



> Who knows that "Shaq could not win rings without Kobe"? Speak for yourself pall. I've of the opinion that Shaq could have the exact same dynasty with 10 or so other players in the league currently filling Kobe's position. Kobe's a nice addition to Shaq, but come on - Shaq's the foundation, Kobe's the window dressing.


Agreed in that Shaq would have been a champion without Kobe if he had the team properly built around him. But Shaq also did not win until Kobe's emergence. The Lakers arguably had a more talented team with Shaq, Kobe, Jones, and Van Exel but they never won until Kobe's emergence. But like you I have little doubt that Shaq would have a ring before he retired without Kobe. But then Ewing, Barkley and even the combo of Malone-Stockton do not have one. Kobe is not the window dressing...that is stupid. If you say that then Magic was Kareem's window dressing.


----------



## BigTMacFan

The above post is well - written and there are only a few things I want to react to:

1. I guess I mis wrote what I intended to about Kobe/Magic/Jordan etc. I have no doubts that Kobe has high regard for Magic. What I was trying to communicate is that Kobe has built his game, his movement, etc based on Michael Jordan. We can argue about it all we want, but I truly feel it's obvious when you watch Kobe play.

2. I chose the interview example in reaction to the idea that *Mcgrady is trying to be charismatic "like Kobe"*. I think the idea is crazy because I've not seen any charism out of Kobe. His interviews that are televised are unimpressive and I don't think commercials and rap albums make a player charismatic. To my mind Yao Ming has more charisma.  So, it's not as much of a matter of why Kobe isn't charismatic but rather why would Mcgrady try to emulate someone in an area that is a weakness for them/

3. 


> Kobe does a lot of charity events that are less publicized. This is an ignorant statement you should have just said TMac did great things like for the kid and the family. No one would disagree with u there but to attack Kobe using TMac's charity is and immature


I specifically mentioned Kobe's "secret" charity work in my earlier post.
If Kobe did do high level charitable work then the media would have a field day with it because they want to support their boy. I'm sure Kobe skins a check to a charity every now and then and good for him. Still, I think he should follow Mcgrady's lead and become more personally involved with his charitable work. That is why I say Mcgrady is the better man. Not because Kobe sucks, but because Mcgrady is heads and tails above the rest of the current generation of players in the league.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> The above post is well - written and there are only a few things I want to react to:
> 
> 1. I guess I mis wrote what I intended to about Kobe/Magic/Jordan etc. I have no doubts that Kobe has high regard for Magic. What I was trying to communicate is that Kobe has built his game, his movement, etc based on Michael Jordan. We can argue about it all we want, but I truly feel it's obvious when you watch Kobe play.
> 
> 2. I chose the interview example in reaction to the idea that *Mcgrady is trying to be charismatic "like Kobe"*. I think the idea is crazy because I've not seen any charism out of Kobe. His interviews that are televised are unimpressive and I don't think commercials and rap albums make a player charismatic. To my mind Yao Ming has more charisma.  So, it's not as much of a matter of why Kobe isn't charismatic but rather why would Mcgrady try to emulate someone in an area that is a weakness for them/
> 
> 3.
> 
> 
> I specifically mentioned Kobe's "secret" charity work in my earlier post.
> If Kobe did do high level charitable work then the media would have a field day with it because they want to support their boy. I'm sure Kobe skins a check to a charity every now and then and good for him. Still, I think he should follow Mcgrady's lead and become more personally involved with his charitable work. That is why I say Mcgrady is the better man. Not because Kobe sucks, but because Mcgrady is heads and tails above the rest of the current generation of players in the league.



For number point 1:

The media has built Kobe up like Mike to the point that fans believe what they say. Their games are truly different I won't lie to you. It's the same when they said MJ was like Dr.J and now nobody says that.

Point 2:

I agree with your statement concerning about the other poster posting a comparison between TMac trying to be Kobe persona. That is also ludricris. Who they are, Are who they are. Who cares about charisma...seriously. Maybe off the court if I was like friends with them then yes but that doesn't determine their play on the court.

Point 3:

You are attacking Kobe using TMac's charitable actions again. That is kind of immature. I agree with you that TMac has done great things but saying that Kobe skins through charity events would mean that he does it for his own benefit. Anyone that participates in a charity to gain more name is stupid. I personally do not believe that Kobe does that. McGrady's charitible events are more publicized becuz of today's wars and terrorism. Kobe's charity games got news press as he played with N'Sync and other players. That doesn't grab the media's attentiion because stories like that don't sell. TMac is a great man for doing what he did but if what you say is true that in a sense TMac did it to gain name over the new generations of stars. I don't think so and I don't think Kobe would do that either.


----------



## BigTMacFan

1. I disagree that it's a media concept that Kobe wants to emulate Jordan - I see it with my own two eyes from day one. It's fine if you disagree - still, I have my opinion and you have your own.

3. I think you misunderstand the intent of my post. I wrote that Kobe "skins a check to a charity" indicating that he does his charitable work, but with a disinterest. I intended not to attack Kobe but rather to build up Mcgrady, who not only contributes $$$ but also time and personal interest. And I disagree that Mcgrady does these things as a means to get a leg up on his peers - I believe he does it because he's genuinly a good guy.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 1. I disagree that it's a media concept that Kobe wants to emulate Jordan - I see it with my own two eyes from day one. It's fine if you disagree - still, I have my opinion and you have your own.
> 
> 3. I think you misunderstand the intent of my post. I wrote that Kobe "skins a check to a charity" indicating that he does his charitable work, but with a disinterest. I intended not to attack Kobe but rather to build up Mcgrady, who not only contributes $$$ but also time and personal interest. And I disagree that Mcgrady does these things as a means to get a leg up on his peers - I believe he does it because he's genuinly a good guy.


1. Kobe is more of a ballhandler and does more things for the team than Jordan. Jordan is more of a post guard since early 90's...Kobe plays off the dribble. Their game is different...it was kind of the same 3 years ago but now is different. When someone constantly hears...Kobe is Mj...Kobe is MJ....one begins to believe that. Like I said look at the MJ and Dr.J comparisons. Just because a player can fly and dunk like Dr.J don't make him Dr.J. Same with the comparisons b/w Vince and MJ. 

3. I agree with you on most part on your post here. I just meant not to judge Kobe just becuz he has done less publicized charitable work than TMac. Truth is that both have and they should be congratulated for that especially Alonzo that man has done ALOT for his community. This was also a knock on Jordan for years but in truth MJ did a lot of charity work that went unpublicized becuz it doesn't catch the media's attention. Remember media is a business too.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> It's confusing because you didn't quote the whole post - he said Mcgrady has more upside.


How can player A be hands down the better player, but player B has a better upside? And how is Tracys upside better anyhow? That's just bogus.




> Mcgrady doesn't have a teammate that has the right to get upset about lack of touches. It's insane that Shaquille O'Neal, the most dominant force in modern basketball, has to call attention to his touches.


You completely avoided my comment 



> Riiiight... as if Kobe cares anything about Magic and doesn't live his life to enter Jordan's class.


opinion



> Now on to Mcgrady. I find it insane that you talk about charisma w/ Kobe and then act as if Mcgrady wants to emulate it. *When has Kobe ever been considered charismatic?* When has he made an all-interview team. Kobe has a horrible rep around the league w/ the media - that's an established fact.


stop kidding yourself



> Now, let's talk about Mcgrady. When was the last time Kobe went out of his way to impact the life of a fan like Ida Brown (and don't give me crap about "Kobe does it in secret. (1) Mcgrady tried to. (2) We know everything that Kobe does - if he pulled something like that ESPN would do an entire Sportscenter dedicated to it)? Or what about Mcgrady sending money to that family in Atlanta, the one in which the man of the house is shipping out with the military and the family needed some $$$ to get by? You know, the ones he brought up to Atlanta for All-Star weekend. Kobe's charisma  :laugh: Despite the arguements you make about their game Mcgrady is already twice the *man* Kobe is.[/b]


Acts such as these are not ment to be publicised. Gary Payton probably has done more charity work over the past ten years in the NBA and you wouldn't even know it. And you can keep the comments about McGrady being twice the man Kobe is becuase that's just funny. 



> Kobe's past has nothing to do with either one's potential? Why even bring that up? By that logic Christian Laettner should have the most potential in the NBA.


Comparing Kobe and Laetneer is very mute and you know it. Secondly we weren't talking about potential, it was natural talent. Kobe has always been a winner. In high school, he still hold the records for most points scored in Philadelphia HS history. Wilt Chamberlain played HS ball in PHilly. HELLO.




> The difference? Darrell Armstrong is now 35 and no longer starting. The 2nd point guard on the team? Not Troy Hudson, who is doing a good job as the starting PG in Minnesota - but none other than Jacque Vaughn. Yeah, that Jacque Vaughn. (Up until Whitney signed a week ago) Also - because he and Rivers couldn't get along they no longer have Horace Grant. So this year's team was *less* talented than last years, as sad as that is. (before the trade)


Thanks for agree with me.



> I'm not sure which is easier to say, but the fact of the matter is that if things get tough it's going to be in Shaq's hands. Anyone half way up the food chain can figure that out.


You dont watch many Lakers games do you? The last game they played Kobe took over and put the Lakers up for good by scoring 13 points in the 3rd quarter. He also completely shut down Allen Iverson making it impossible for Philly to compete.



> And where did Kobe get that clutch reputation? His "clutch reputation" is over rated - existing primarily amongst Kobe cultists. Granted, he has 2 good 4th quarters against the Spurs in the playoffs but that isn't enough to sell me on his "clutch ability".


Just to mention 2:

Hit the game-winning bucket with 2.6 seconds remaining, lifting the Lakers to a 97-96 win over Phoenix on 5/10/00 in game 2 of the series 

He scored basket after basket in an overtime game that Shaq fouled out of in the 2000 finals. Kobe lead the lakers to victory that night. It was one of his most memorable clutch performances.




> Big Game Rob is L.A.'s last second weapon - although I will give you that Kobe is usually the one passing it to him (Props to Kobe - he's a great set- up man, except when he's ignoring Shaq for personal glory). Let me ask you this - if Kobe is so "clutch" then why is Robert Horry always the one with the last second shot? Kobe does the get the ball at the end, but with the clear instruction to get it to Horry.


:nonono:
You answered your own question, Horry takes some of the last second shots because Kobe gets him the ball "except when he's ignoring Shaq for personal glory" of course. :laugh:

You know you gotta stop living in a fictious world man. I know you are a Kobe loather, but he is the guy with the ball in his hands as the Lakers last second weapon. Think about Horry great buzzer beaters.

Against Sac:
Kobe drives, it rims out Shaq rebounds and misses, then the ball bounces out to Horry for the game winner.

Last week against the Pacers:
Kobe shoots a three pointer is fouled, and makes the basket but the refs call the foul on the floor, so they go at it again and the ball bounces out to Horry he shoots and scores.

Against Portland last year to close the series:
Kobe, defended by the Kobe victim Ruben Patterson, blows right by drawing the double team of Scottie Pippen. He finds a wide open Robert Horry, Pippen man, in the corner for the buzzer beater.

All of those plays were great baskets but to say Horry is the last second weapon? You're living in fiction. 



> Who knows that "Shaq could not win rings without Kobe"? Speak for yourself pall. quote]
> You're right poor choice of words. You are "Tmac fan" and I know "Tmac fan" loves to speculate, so I said could not, I should have keep it real and dealt with facts saying "did not."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup - Penny was Mcgrady's favorite player growing up.
> 
> 
> 
> No comment :laugh:
Click to expand...


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## Bball_Doctor

Kobe's game is different than MJ's now but I think the comparisons still exist becuz people want another MJ. Also, Kobe is the NBA's next big market player and he is successful and has a marketable image much like Jordan. That is why the comparisons exist. I highly doubt that Kobe is MJ and vice versa. Both would attest to that. That is the media's perception. Kobe is the next Mike as far as the player being passed the torch but he will separate himself from Mike like how Mike did from Dr.J.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> 1. Kobe is more of a ballhandler and does more things for the team than Jordan. Jordan is more of a post guard since early 90's...Kobe plays off the dribble. Their game is different...it was kind of the same 3 years ago but now is different. When someone constantly hears...Kobe is Mj...Kobe is MJ....one begins to believe that. Like I said look at the MJ and Dr.J comparisons. Just because a player can fly and dunk like Dr.J don't make him Dr.J. Same with the comparisons b/w Vince and MJ.
> 
> 3. I agree with you on most part on your post here. I just meant not to judge Kobe just becuz he has done less publicized charitable work than TMac. Truth is that both have and they should be congratulated for that especially Alonzo that man has done ALOT for his community. This was also a knock on Jordan for years but in truth MJ did a lot of charity work that went unpublicized becuz it doesn't catch the media's attention. Remember media is a business too.



While I agree that Jordan is currently more of a post - up guy during his runs with the Bulls he was even more instrumental in his team's success than Kobe. Jordan occupied the role Shaq has on the Lakers and Kobe the role Pippen had on the Bulls. Remember, Jordan's career assist mark is almost a full assist higher than Kobe's. 

And once again, I don't believe Kobe emulates Jordan because I've been told that for so long - I've seen it in his game from day one.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> How can player A be hands down the better player, but player B has a better upside? And how is Tracys upside better anyhow? That's just bogus.
> 
> 
> 
> You completely avoided my comment
> 
> 
> opinion
> 
> 
> stop kidding yourself
> 
> 
> Acts such as these are not ment to be publicised. Gary Payton probably has done more charity work over the past ten years in the NBA and you wouldn't even know it. And you can keep the comments about McGrady being twice the man Kobe is becuase that's just funny.
> 
> 
> Comparing Kobe and Laetneer is very mute and you know it. Secondly we weren't talking about potential, it was natural talent. Kobe has always been a winner. In high school, he still hold the records for most points scored in Philadelphia HS history. Wilt Chamberlain played HS ball in PHilly. HELLO.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for agree with me.
> 
> 
> You dont watch many Lakers games do you? The last game they played Kobe took over and put the Lakers up for good by scoring 13 points in the 3rd quarter. He also completely shut down Allen Iverson making it impossible for Philly to compete.
> 
> 
> Just to mention 2:
> 
> Hit the game-winning bucket with 2.6 seconds remaining, lifting the Lakers to a 97-96 win over Phoenix on 5/10/00 in game 2 of the series
> 
> He scored basket after basket in an overtime game that Shaq fouled out of in the 2000 finals. Kobe lead the lakers to victory that night. It was one of his most memorable clutch performances.
> 
> 
> :nonono:
> You answered your own question, Horry takes some of the last second shots because Kobe gets him the ball "except when he's ignoring Shaq for personal glory" of course. :laugh:
> 
> You know you gotta stop living in a fictious world man. I know you are a Kobe loather, but he is the guy with the ball in his hands as the Lakers last second weapon. Think about Horry great buzzer beaters.
> 
> Against Sac:
> Kobe drives, it rims out Shaq rebounds and misses, then the ball bounces out to Horry for the game winner.
> 
> Last week against the Pacers:
> Kobe shoots a three pointer is fouled, and makes the basket but the refs call the foul on the floor, so they go at it again and the ball bounces out to Horry he shoots and scores.
> 
> Against Portland last year to close the series:
> Kobe, defended by the Kobe victim Ruben Patterson, blows right by drawing the double team of Scottie Pippen. He finds a wide open Robert Horry, Pippen man, in the corner for the buzzer beater.
> 
> All of those plays were great baskets but to say Horry is the last second weapon? You're living in fiction.
> 
> 
> No comment :laugh:


I actually agree with BigTMacFan about their past shouldn't be mentioned with their potential. Kobe had a great and I mean GREAT HS career. He scored like 2800 points which is 300 more than Wilt. You r right there but then there have been players like Damon Bailey who tore thru HS and acheived nothing in the NBA. Laetnerr had an AMAZING legacy in college...4 final four starts (only player in history) and 3 NCAA finals and 2 championships. Amazing legacy but he hasn;t been able to translate that to the NBA. Early success means nothing if can't continue it...Kobe has and it should be noted but it has nothing to do with a player's potential or capability to win in the pros.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> While I agree that Jordan is currently more of a post - up guy during his runs with the Bulls he was even more instrumental in his team's success than Kobe. * Jordan occupied the role Shaq has on the Lakers and Kobe the role Pippen had on the Bulls.* Remember, Jordan's career assist mark is almost a full assist higher than Kobe's.


That's not exactly true.

Shaq is the rock like Jordan, but Kobe is the dagger like Jordan.
Kobe is the playmakers like Pippen, he also is the defensive specialist like Pippen, or Mike is some cases. Kobe is the go to man when they need a basket like MJ, Shaq is not. 

That advantage of the bias stats you have now because in time they will fade away. You know Kobe's career assist are lower because he didn't start until his third year in the league.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> I actually agree with BigTMacFan about their past shouldn't be mentioned with their potential. Kobe had a great and I mean GREAT HS career. He scored like 2800 points which is 300 more than Wilt. You r right there but then there have been players like Damon Bailey who tore thru HS and acheived nothing in the NBA. Laetnerr had an AMAZING legacy in college...4 final four starts (only player in history) and 3 NCAA finals and 2 championships. Amazing legacy but he hasn;t been able to translate that to the NBA. Early success means nothing if can't continue it...Kobe has and it should be noted but it has nothing to do with a player's potential or capability to win in the pros.


But thats the thing about it, Damon bailey and Laetneer tore threw different levels of basketball but that doesn't apply to Kobe. Kobe is the one that has been consistent, succeeding at every level. Plus Tmacfan, rerouted the arguement. We werent even talking about potential, it was natural talent.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> While I agree that Jordan is currently more of a post - up guy during his runs with the Bulls he was even more instrumental in his team's success than Kobe. Jordan occupied the role Shaq has on the Lakers and Kobe the role Pippen had on the Bulls. Remember, Jordan's career assist mark is almost a full assist higher than Kobe's.
> 
> And once again, I don't believe Kobe emulates Jordan because I've been told that for so long - I've seen it in his game from day one.


You just answered your question. Kobe and MJ's games are patterned different. When I meant role I just meant like ballhandling and stuff sorry for the confusion. Assist don't equal the amount of ballhandling. Kobe brings the ball up and set ups the offense where as you mentioned Pip did that for the Bull's runs. MJ basically just got into position and did what he did best...score much like Shaq. the offense rotated around Jordan much like Shaq today but like Pip..Kobe initiates the offense.

And once again, I don't believe Kobe emulates Jordan because I've been told that for so long - I've seen it in his game from day one. < This is contradictory to what you just said. You admitted that their games are patterned different because they have different roles. Their games were once similar but now different. You see a lot of Jordan in Kobe becuz that is the media perception. Kobe is a better shooter than Jordan...Jordan is a better poster than Kobe. Kobe ballhandles more...Jordan jogs for position and runs without the ball. What is the same? Both can dominate games...both are highflyers...same can be said for Jordan and TMac. The reason why those comparisons exist is becuz the public craves for another Jordan. He was a cultural staple for basketball fans. That is why people still run and see a 40 year old version of him. Kobe is marketed as the next MJ as far as the next torch but c'mon seriously Kobe is not MJ...that is what great marketing does.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> How can player A be hands down the better player, but player B has a better upside? And how is Tracys upside better anyhow? That's just bogus.
> 
> 
> 
> It's pretty simple really, but I'll try and break it down for you so you can get it. Player A, because he is older and closer to his physical prime is the better player. Player B, younger, less-developed is not the baller that Player A is yet, but could some day get there.
> 
> I posted that as an explanation to you - I don't think it applies to Kobe/Mcgrady because I believe Mcgrady is better than Kobe all-around even though he is younger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You completely avoided my comment
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you point is - I just mentioned Shaq because to my mind it's strange that a team's best player has to demand the ball more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> opinion
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As is yours
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stop kidding yourself
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would say the same thing to you. Great argument by the way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acts such as these are not ment to be publicised. Gary Payton probably has done more charity work over the past ten years in the NBA and you wouldn't even know it. And you can keep the comments about McGrady being twice the man Kobe is becuase that's just funny.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Once again, if Kobe was doing this type of stuff Sportscenter would make it the focus of their show. Because of the lack of media attention that Kobe's "secret charity" gets (as contrasted with the hugh amount of attention the rest of his life gets) leads me to coclude that he's not doing it. And funny as my comment about Mcgrady is to you - you have done nothing to refute the idea of Mcgrady's greater attention to charity. Sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comparing Kobe and Laetneer is very mute and you know it. Secondly we weren't talking about potential, it was natural talent. Kobe has always been a winner. In high school, he still hold the records for most points scored in Philadelphia HS history. Wilt Chamberlain played HS ball in PHilly. HELLO.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, it's not "mute" (??? - Were you trying for "moot"?) because you used the idea of amateur accomplishments to support the idea that Kobe had more natural talent. I stand by the idea that if the indication of amateur accomplishments indicates natural ability Laettner is the most gifted man in the NBA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for agree with me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not sure how your fevered brain came to the conclusion that I agreed with you. Maybe a better explanation will help - You brought out the idea that Mcgrady's team was doing worse this year than last and some how that was an indicator of Mcgrady's ability to lead a team. I pointed out that he (Mcgrady) has even less to work with than last year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You dont watch many Lakers games do you? The last game they played Kobe took over and put the Lakers up for good by scoring 13 points in the 3rd quarter. He also completely shut down Allen Iverson making it impossible for Philly to compete.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I watch a few. I didn't catch the Lakers/Philly game, but I also didn't watch the Lakers game where Allan Houston lit Kobe up for 50.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to mention 2:
> 
> Hit the game-winning bucket with 2.6 seconds remaining, lifting the Lakers to a 97-96 win over Phoenix on 5/10/00 in game 2 of the series
> 
> He scored basket after basket in an overtime game that Shaq fouled out of in the 2000 finals. Kobe lead the lakers to victory that night. It was one of his most memorable clutch performances.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah - good points. Brings him in right @ 2 on the Lakers last-second depth chart, right behind Horry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You answered your own question, Horry takes some of the last second shots because Kobe gets him the ball "except when he's ignoring Shaq for personal glory" of course. :laugh:
> 
> You know you gotta stop living in a fictious world man. I know you are a Kobe loather, but he is the guy with the ball in his hands as the Lakers last second weapon. Think about Horry great buzzer beaters.
> 
> Etc Etc Etc
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Okay - I'm living in a "fictious" (were you going for "fictitious"?) world. You, on the other hand, are illiterate. If you would read my post you will note that I agree the ball is in Kobe's hands at the end of the game - for the express purpose of getting it to Horry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of those plays were great baskets but to say Horry is the last second weapon? You're living in fiction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And you think Kobe's 3 or 4 last few seconds shots and the plays where he sets up Horry indicate what? It's obvious, based on sheer amount, that Horry is the number one last-second option and Kobe the 2nd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No comment
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You would save yourself a lot of trouble if you did that more often.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> But thats the thing about it, Damon bailey and Laetneer tore threw different levels of basketball but that doesn't apply to Kobe. Kobe is the one that has been consistent, succeeding at every level. Plus Tmacfan, rerouted the arguement. We werent even talking about potential, it was natural talent.


Natural talent...whoa I missed that. But then natural talent has nothing to do if one wins in the past or not. I agree that Kobe has more natural talent than Laetneer but that does not translate into if one won or not pre-NBA. Nobody would dispute that Laetnerr won more than Kobe pre-NBA.


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## BigTMacFan

BBall Doctor - 

I see Kobe as emulating Jordan based on their moves on the court, the persona they project off the court, Kobe's obsession with the fade away, etc etc etc.

Heck, in his first two seasons he even wore his pads like Jordan (one low on the forearm, etc)

It's pointless to argue this - I'll have my opinion, which many others have as well, and you will have yours, which many others have as well. I doubt I'll convince you, you won't convince me.

BTW - IV - don't miss my post at the bottom of page 27. I gave you some spelling points and some good advice at the bottom. I'd hate for you to miss it. :grinning:


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> Natural talent...whoa I missed that. But then natural talent has nothing to do if one wins in the past or not. I agree that Kobe has more natural talent than Laetneer but that does not translate into if one won or not pre-NBA. Nobody would dispute that Laetnerr won more than Kobe pre-NBA.


That's a whole nother arguement, plus I wouldnt disput that anyway. 

Take a player who has proven himself to be a winner, and say he doesn't have natural talent is ridiculous. Why wouldnt a fan think that Kobe will continue to be successful throughout the rest of his career, judging him by his past. What else is there? Speculation means nothing.
Go into a job interview with no creditials, and no past work experience, and try to convince someone to heir you. Its not gonna happen, even if you speculate.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you point is - I just mentioned Shaq because to my mind it's strange that a team's best player has to demand the ball more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As is yours
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would say the same thing to you. Great argument by the way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, if Kobe was doing this type of stuff Sportscenter would make it the focus of their show. Because of the lack of media attention that Kobe's "secret charity" gets (as contrasted with the hugh amount of attention the rest of his life gets) leads me to coclude that he's not doing it. And funny as my comment about Mcgrady is to you - you have done nothing to refute the idea of Mcgrady's greater attention to charity. Sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's not "mute" (??? - Were you trying for "moot"?) because you used the idea of amateur accomplishments to support the idea that Kobe had more natural talent. I stand by the idea that if the indication of amateur accomplishments indicates natural ability Laettner is the most gifted man in the NBA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how your fevered brain came to the conclusion that I agreed with you. Maybe a better explanation will help - You brought out the idea that Mcgrady's team was doing worse this year than last and some how that was an indicator of Mcgrady's ability to lead a team. I pointed out that he (Mcgrady) has even less to work with than last year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I watch a few. I didn't catch the Lakers/Philly game, but I also didn't watch the Lakers game where Allan Houston lit Kobe up for 50.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah - good points. Brings him in right @ 2 on the Lakers last-second depth chart, right behind Horry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay - I'm living in a "fictious" (were you going for "fictitious"?) world. You, on the other hand, are illiterate. If you would read my post you will note that I agree the ball is in Kobe's hands at the end of the game - for the express purpose of getting it to Horry.
> 
> 
> 
> And you think Kobe's 3 or 4 last few seconds shots and the plays where he sets up Horry indicate what? It's obvious, based on sheer amount, that Horry is the number one last-second option and Kobe the 2nd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You would save yourself a lot of trouble if you did that more often.


Once again, if Kobe was doing this type of stuff Sportscenter would make it the focus of their show. Because of the lack of media attention that Kobe's "secret charity" gets (as contrasted with the hugh amount of attention the rest of his life gets) leads me to coclude that he's not doing it. And funny as my comment about Mcgrady is to you - you have done nothing to refute the idea of Mcgrady's greater attention to charity. Sorry.
< Once again I will explain to you. Payton has done much much much more charity work than TMac. Zo has done the most in the past 5 years probably out of all NBA players. Kobe does charity work...seriously. The reason why TMac's work was publicized is becuz of the situation. The kid was shot by a sniper during sniper attacks. Great story=money for media=more press for such an act. The family thing=today's situation of war=media coverage=more $ for media=more press for such an act. There is no dispute that TMac was great for doing what he did but THOSE are the reasons why TMac got so much publicity and attention for those things. Why the hell would media want to spend money to cover Kobe playing in a charity game. Seriously there was media coverage but not even 1% as extensive as TMac and the sniper kid. It's all about business for the media...that is why Clinton getting his dick sucked by Monica was front page while a kid getting murdered was 4th page. Business. 

Once again, if Kobe was doing this type of stuff Sportscenter would make it the focus of their show. Because of the lack of media attention that Kobe's "secret charity" gets (as contrasted with the hugh amount of attention the rest of his life gets) leads me to coclude that he's not doing it.< Ignorant and immature statement.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> That's a whole nother arguement, plus I wouldnt disput that anyway.
> 
> Take a player who has proven himself to be a winner, and say he doesn't have natural talent is ridiculous. Why wouldnt a fan think that Kobe will continue to be successful throughout the rest of his career, judging him by his past. What else is there? Speculation means nothing.
> Go into a job interview with no creditials, and no past work experience, and try to convince someone to heir you. Its not gonna happen, even if you speculate.


Agreed but creditials and natural talent are different things. There have been many winners in HS and college that have not gone on to impact in the NBA. 

Why wouldnt a fan think that Kobe will continue to be successful throughout the rest of his career, judging him by his past.< You just answered your own question. Speculation means nothing. I will give you an example...who thought that Felipe Lopez wouldn't go on to continue his success in college or the pros. Well everyone thought he would but he didn't.


----------



## BigTMacFan

It's neither ignorant nor immature. It's informed and accurate.

We know everything Kobe does - When the kid was born, what she looked like, what his wedding looked like, what record he broke or is on pace to break, etc.

Because of this I believe the media, if they had anything to work with, would trumpet Kobe's philanthropy just as loudly as they do every thing else.

So, Kobe's charity work, conspicuous by the lack of attention the media give it, stands out as the only part of his life that the media doesn't plaster on the front page?

Maybe he is just that good at hiding what he does. Maybe, but not likely.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> BBall Doctor -
> 
> I see Kobe as emulating Jordan based on their moves on the court, the persona they project off the court, Kobe's obsession with the fade away, etc etc etc.
> 
> Heck, in his first two seasons he even wore his pads like Jordan (one low on the forearm, etc)
> 
> It's pointless to argue this - I'll have my opinion, which many others have as well, and you will have yours, which many others have as well. I doubt I'll convince you, you won't convince me.
> 
> BTW - IV - don't miss my post at the bottom of page 27. I gave you some spelling points and some good advice at the bottom. I'd hate for you to miss it. :grinning:


You are right about this arguing thing. It will go on forever but that fadeaway thing.....every player does that now. It is a move...please look at the pattern of their games it is different like you admit...like I said just because a player can fly and win a dunk contest don;t mean he is Jordan aka Vince Carter.

Heck, in his first two seasons he even wore his pads like Jordan (one low on the forearm, etc)< I have seen that before.

I agree that Kobe in alot of ways tried to emulate Jordan's persona in his early years but I think media pressure had a lot to do with that. What 20 year old kid when someone says that if you act like MJ you be the next best thing and make more $$$ wouldn't do that. Now he does not emulate MJ at all...it is only the media who continues to do that. Seriously. The same happened to Hill and Penny. If Kobe ever lost his success and appeal another player would become like Mike....the media would then be this kid does this just like Mike and after repeatedly doing that along with genius marketing the public perception would be like this kid is like Mike. That is the truth. 

Once again I just say compare their games and you agree it is different so how are they the same? Fine Shaq is the same becuz he sticks out his tongue when he is preparing to make a move that makes him like Jordan. Absurd. Fadeaway is an established move that Kobe only uses in when he is in the post like most guards like Vince and TMac why not call TMac the next Mike then?


----------



## BigTMacFan

Seriously - everything I mention you will have a response to. It won't make my arguement less valid or your response more valid. We'll continue without changing either person's mind or anyone who reads this thread. I'm done with this part of the arguement. It's obvious to my eyes regarding Kobe's emulation of Jordan. It's not to yours. Doesn't change anything either way.


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## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> It's neither ignorant nor immature. It's informed and accurate.
> 
> We know everything Kobe does - When the kid was born, what she looked like, what his wedding looked like, what record he broke or is on pace to break, etc.
> 
> Because of this I believe the media, if they had anything to work with, would trumpet Kobe's philanthropy just as loudly as they do every thing else.
> 
> So, Kobe's charity work, conspicuous by the lack of attention the media give it, stands out as the only part of his life that the media doesn't plaster on the front page?
> 
> Maybe he is just that good at hiding what he does. Maybe, but not likely.


Then based on what you just said then TMac has done a total of 2 charitable events since the rest are not publicized and therefore not noted. That is ludicris. Plus who the hell knows how Kobe looks like when he was a baby or wedding photos. You must be a huge fan to find those things becuz it was never shown. People do not know what Kobe does.....SERIOUSLY...u implored that in one of your previous post...one of the reasons that Kobe is not a great interview bite is his reluctance to talk about his private life remeber? So what we knew he got married and he ha sa kid. TMac got equal publicity for that as well. Truth is zo and payton's charity work went unnoticed becuz media knew those stories wouldn;t se;ll. A kid that just got caught by the sniper....THAT SELLS.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> Seriously - everything I mention you will have a response to. It won't make my arguement less valid or your response more valid. We'll continue without changing either person's mind or anyone who reads this thread. I'm done with this part of the arguement. It's obvious to my eyes regarding Kobe's emulation of Jordan. It's not to yours. Doesn't change anything either way.


I agree to end this argument but seriously you said their games are different now so how are they the same player? Kobe is not Mj, Mj is not Kobe. Doing fadeaways has nothing to do with a playier emulating another. Please tell me what makes Kobe and Mj the same as a basketball player?


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> Then based on what you just said then TMac has done a total of 2 charitable events since the rest are not publicized and therefore not noted. That is ludicris. Plus who the hell knows how Kobe looks like when he was a baby or wedding photos. You must be a huge fan to find those things becuz it was never shown. People do not know what Kobe does.....SERIOUSLY...u implored that in one of your previous post...one of the reasons that Kobe is not a great interview bite is his reluctance to talk about his private life remeber? So what we knew he got married and he ha sa kid. TMac got equal publicity for that as well. Truth is zo and payton's charity work went unnoticed becuz media knew those stories wouldn;t se;ll. A kid that just got caught by the sniper....THAT SELLS.


The reason I know about Kobe personal life? Kobe fans post it all over boards that I go to. They wouldn't have it to post if the media didn't provide it.

Now, about the charitable work - for all I know those 2 instances where Mcgrady got personally involved might very well be the only times he has done more than send a check to a charity. Still - that's two more than we know about Kobe, in contrast with the explicit details we get about the rest of his life.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> The reason I know about Kobe personal life? Kobe fans post it all over boards that I go to. They wouldn't have it to post if the media didn't provide it.
> 
> Now, about the charitable work - for all I know those 2 instances where Mcgrady got personally involved might very well be the only times he has done more than send a check to a charity. Still - that's two more than we know about Kobe, in contrast with the explicit details we get about the rest of his life.


The reason I know about Kobe personal life? Kobe fans post it all over boards that I go to. They wouldn't have it to post if the media didn't provide it.< U just admitted what I said. Those are Kobe fans who go digging around the internet. The TV doesn't show this crap. You can do the same for TMac.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree to end this argument but seriously you said their games are different now so how are they the same player? Kobe is not Mj, Mj is not Kobe. Doing fadeaways has nothing to do with a playier emulating another. Please tell me what makes Kobe and Mj the same as a basketball player?


How did I say that their games were different? I said Jordan meant more to his team. That should be interpreted as "Jordan was better at what he and Kobe both attempt to do". How are their games similar? Both slashers w/ better mid range game than outside. Both are/were primary cogs in a dynasty machine. Both are defensive stalwarts. Both win/won many awards early in their career (Kobe, of course, won his rings earlier, but Shaq is the primary reason/difference). Both make extensive use of the fadaway - Jordan in his later years, Kobe in his 4th year worked it almost incessantly? Why? Jordan: Losing the step and leap, needed a weapon to compensate. Kobe:Still had the step and leap, needed to emulate Jordan.

We can go on and on and on about this subject with me saying something, your responding, me responding to that, etc. I doubt we'd ever exhaust the other's ability to refute the points.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> The reason I know about Kobe personal life? Kobe fans post it all over boards that I go to. They wouldn't have it to post if the media didn't provide it.
> 
> Now, about the charitable work - for all I know those 2 instances where Mcgrady got personally involved might very well be the only times he has done more than send a check to a charity. Still - that's two more than we know about Kobe, in contrast with the explicit details we get about the rest of his life.


Now, about the charitable work - for all I know those 2 instances where Mcgrady got personally involved might very well be the only times he has done more than send a check to a charity. Still - that's two more than we know about Kobe, in contrast with the explicit details we get about the rest of his life. < First off you already admitted the only times you get explicit details about his life is thru post of fans. So that argument is out of the window. 

Now, about the charitable work - for all I know those 2 instances where Mcgrady got personally involved might very well be the only times he has done more than send a check to a charity.< TMac has done more charity than the two publicized.

You are not making valid arguments but immature ones in this department. Kobe's charity games did get mentioned but was hardly as publicized as TMac's charitable event. I am pretty sure that if that kid's biggest sports hero was Kobe he would have done the same as TMac did. Seriously and would have received equal pub. Publicity means nothing. The only people who do chairty for pub are those who don't care about the chairty but gaining name. I do not believe TMac did that but also means that you should not hold Kobe's less publicized charitable actions against him as well.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> The reason I know about Kobe personal life? Kobe fans post it all over boards that I go to. They wouldn't have it to post if the media didn't provide it.
> 
> Now, about the charitable work - for all I know those 2 instances where Mcgrady got personally involved might very well be the only times he has done more than send a check to a charity. Still - that's two more than we know about Kobe, in contrast with the explicit details we get about the rest of his life.


Do you go to espn.com much? Page 2 ran an extensive piece about Kobe's wedding.

Even if that weren't true - just because to us it is "digging up" stuff doesn't mean it isn't abundantly out there on media sites. I personally only skim the headlines about Kobe/Lakers. So the information is obscure to me. That isn't to say that is the case world wide.


I'm waiting on IV to post again - wonder if he read my last post in response to him? :grinning:


----------



## BigTMacFan

I'm not talking about publicity for pubicity's sake.

I'm talking about getting involved. Magic Johnson has his "Mid-Summer Night's Magic" tourney, but he also spends time in the inner city. Good for him. Zo is the same was w/ the Summer Jam

Still, what is easier, having a charity game or bring a kid or a family up to where you live, spending days/weeks with them, and keeping in touch.

That's what I'm talking about - going beyond the check writing.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> How did I say that their games were different? I said Jordan meant more to his team. That should be interpreted as "Jordan was better at what he and Kobe both attempt to do". How are their games similar? Both slashers w/ better mid range game than outside. Both are/were primary cogs in a dynasty machine. Both are defensive stalwarts. Both win/won many awards early in their career (Kobe, of course, won his rings earlier, but Shaq is the primary reason/difference). Both make extensive use of the fadaway - Jordan in his later years, Kobe in his 4th year worked it almost incessantly? Why? Jordan: Losing the step and leap, needed a weapon to compensate. Kobe:Still had the step and leap, needed to emulate Jordan.
> 
> We can go on and on and on about this subject with me saying something, your responding, me responding to that, etc. I doubt we'd ever exhaust the other's ability to refute the points.


Have you watched Jordan when he was young? MJ and Kobe both have different games now. Kobe sets up an offense, Jordan gets in position. Many players are slashers with better midrange games. Many players won awards earlier in their career. Kobe is utilizing his strengths. What you said above applies to TMac as well...seriously so is TMac Jordan...why not? Trust me it is the continued media perception that further drives us to believe that Kobe is indeed the reincarnation of MJ.


----------



## BigTMacFan

Well, I started watching Jordan live in the late 80's - early 90's. Other than that I rely on ESPN Classic and my DVD collection for Jordan film.

The idea that Jordan wasn't an instigator is out of place. He had the same role in the triangle in his early years that Kobe does now (being the one who directed the flow of the offense).

Maybe Mcgrady is trying to be like Jordan - it's just apparent that Kobe has put so much more effort into it.


----------



## Lakers_32_4ever

I have one big question. How does there charity work make the better player?

It makes the better person, not the better player. Strange reason to argue.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Lakers_32_4ever</b>!
> I have one big question. How does there charity work make the better player?
> 
> It makes the better person, not the better player. Strange reason to argue.


Doesn't have anything to do with the player. I brought it up as a character reference.


----------



## Lakers_32_4ever

ah. ok then.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> I'm not talking about publicity for pubicity's sake.
> 
> I'm talking about getting involved. Magic Johnson has his "Mid-Summer Night's Magic" tourney, but he also spends time in the inner city. Good for him. Zo is the same was w/ the Summer Jam
> 
> Still, what is easier, having a charity game or bring a kid or a family up to where you live, spending days/weeks with them, and keeping in touch.
> 
> That's what I'm talking about - going beyond the check writing.


The basis of your argument is publicity. Check your original words. Now you are contradicting yourself. 

Some of Kobe's charitable contributuions (which are less publicized):

http://www.talkingwithkids.org/about.html
http://www.angelfire.com/boybands/nsyncinit/cftc2
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1428401/19990827/story.jhtml
http://www.nctimes.net/news/2002/20020523/91223.html
http://www.racingresponds.com/news/auctions.html

Let's not forget Kobe has the Kobe Bowl which is a charitable event. Kobe does do charitable work granted not as publicized as TMac but the fact he does it does not make him less of a person and more a person. Both players do it to help people.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> The basis of your argument is publicity. Check your original words. Now you are contradicting yourself.
> 
> Some of Kobe's charitable contributuions (which are less publicized):
> 
> http://www.talkingwithkids.org/about.html
> http://www.angelfire.com/boybands/nsyncinit/cftc2
> http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1428401/19990827/story.jhtml
> http://www.nctimes.net/news/2002/20020523/91223.html
> http://www.racingresponds.com/news/auctions.html
> 
> Let's not forget Kobe has the Kobe Bowl which is a charitable event. Kobe does do charitable work granted not as publicized as TMac but the fact he does it does not make him less of a person and more a person. Both players do it to help people.


No, I'm not talking about publicity for publicity's sake. Read my posts. I'm talking about getting out there and have contact with those you are helping. Like I said - "going beyond the check writing".


----------



## Tragedy

I said he's the better individual player... that doesnt always translate to whats best for the team...


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> Well, I started watching Jordan live in the late 80's - early 90's. Other than that I rely on ESPN Classic and my DVD collection for Jordan film.
> 
> The idea that Jordan wasn't an instigator is out of place. He had the same role in the triangle in his early years that Kobe does now (being the one who directed the flow of the offense).
> 
> Maybe Mcgrady is trying to be like Jordan - it's just apparent that Kobe has put so much more effort into it.


Kobe does not try to be like Jordan except for the fact he has the same passion that Jordan had to become the greatest player. That is what he and MJ put effort into. Kobe actually hate's but also feels that it is a tremendous compliment to be compared to Jordan. Their games are patterned different becuz of their roles. Like you said maybe TMac is trying to be like Jordan but the truth is he is also utlizing his strengths. But then why doesn't the media make TMac into the next Mike as well???? Also why did the media make Vince into the next Mike????? hmmm. Kobe is not MJ and vice versa. He is just a damn good player as is TMac and it is his passion to be the best that has him like Mike. The media and basketball need a player like Mike to sell that is why they created this perception that Kobe is Mike. They will probably do it when kobe retires too...this new kid is like Kobe or are we seeing that with Lebron already.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Tragedy</b>!
> I said he's the better individual player... that doesnt always translate to whats best for the team...


I still disagree (sense a pattern?)

The media might try what they want - I'm not talking about the media making Kobe the next Jordan or Vince, or Lebron for that matter.

I'm talking about Kobe trying to step into Michael's shoes, which is what I see in Kobe's career.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> No, I'm not talking about publicity for publicity's sake. Read my posts. I'm talking about getting out there and have contact with those you are helping. Like I said - "going beyond the check writing".


But he is doing that.  ...whatever let's just agree that most do charity work. Neither is above the other. I point is that you don't hear about Kobe's work becuz it is less publicized but he does it. TMac's work with the sniper kid is publicized but like you said you don't even know if he has done more than that. I am pretty he has and I know Kobe visited sick kids in the hospital more than once.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> I still disagree (sense a pattern?)
> 
> The media might try what they want - I'm not talking about the media making Kobe the next Jordan or Vince, or Lebron for that matter.
> 
> I'm talking about Kobe trying to step into Michael's shoes, which is what I see in Kobe's career.


Therefor if he wants to step in Michael's shoes that means he wants to be the next best. And if your argument is that Kobe is the next MJ becomes he wants to be the next best...I WILL fully agree with you. If you say Kobe is the reincarnation of Mike then I would not. The media creates that.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> But he is doing that.  ...whatever let's just agree that most do charity work. Neither is above the other. I point is that you don't hear about Kobe's work becuz it is less publicized but he does it. TMac's work with the sniper kid is publicized but like you said you don't even know if he has done more than that. I am pretty he has and I know Kobe visited sick kids in the hospital more than once.


Hopefully we are right. I stand by the idea that if he were doing that high level stuff we'd hear about it more though. But hey, I've been wrong before.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> Therefor if he wants to step in Michael's shoes that means he wants to be the next best. And if your argument is that Kobe is the next MJ becomes he wants to be the next best...I WILL fully agree with you. If you say Kobe is the reincarnation of Mike then I would not. The media creates that.


I am saying that Kobe wants to be Mike or eclips him one, for the purpose of being like him.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> I still disagree (sense a pattern?)
> 
> The media might try what they want - I'm not talking about the media making Kobe the next Jordan or Vince, or Lebron for that matter.
> 
> I'm talking about Kobe trying to step into Michael's shoes, which is what I see in Kobe's career.


Nobody thought that Kobe was like MJ until the whole allstar game showdown when the media was looking for a player to pass the torch to. So they pegged Kobe the next Mike and the comparisons started. Same was said about Hill and Penny. The difference Kobe has been able to have the success similar to MJ that is why the media still pegs him as that. If Kobe ever got injured or did not acheive success another player would just be labelled the next Mike perhaps TMac. Of course at times their games look similar since Phil is there and Kobe plays in the triangle but Kobe has a different role in it then MJ did during Pippen's tenure. Kobe is somewhat both Pip and at times when Shaq is injured MJ in the Triangle. Kobe is a more rounded player than MJ but far from being the player MJ was. Anyways...everybody has their opinion and I have heard this Kobe/MJ before...heck even I have compared them but seriously their games are patterned different becuz of the difference in their roles and TMac is basically a player like Jordan now too. Let's just agree that like MJ, Kobe and TMac strive to be the best.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Kobe is a more rounded player than MJ


I disagree with that, but I am willing to agree that Kobe, Jordan, and Mcgrady strive to be the best.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> I am saying that Kobe wants to be Mike or eclips him one, for the purpose of being like him.


Unless he is a shapechanger he cannot do that. I think what you are trying to say is that Kobe is trying to eclispe MJ's greatness by doing more than he did. But then that goes back to me saying that Kobe wants to be the best like MJ did. It's still to be seen with Kobe can accomplish that feat of eclipsing MJ's greatness. I think these comparisons have been good to him also because it gives him an extra desire to become a better player becuz that is the only way to separate himself from Mike. Same thing as what Mike did to separate himself from Dr.J.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> I disagree with that, but I am willing to agree that Kobe, Jordan, and Mcgrady strive to be the best.


Finally an agreement. :yes: I have a previous post comparing MJ to Kobe....maybe u like to read that to see how I see the two players. Just search under by name. Anyways this has been a great argument. It is great to have a poster that likes to argue becuz that is what opinions is all about. :grinning:


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> I am saying that Kobe wants to be Mike or eclips him one, for the purpose of being like him. ...





> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> Unless he is a shapechanger he cannot do that. I think what you are trying to say is that Kobe is trying to eclispe...



Looks like we are both struggling to write "eclipse"


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like we are both struggling to write "eclipse"


Yes :laugh: so true so true...must be fingers getting tired from all this typing.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> I'm not sure what you point is - I just mentioned Shaq because to my mind it's strange that a team's best player has to demand the ball more.


Its because he's not the teams best player. Kobe gets the shots because he's a SG a perimeter player. Big men dont need to shot as much as guards.




> Great argument by the way.


Thank you!



> Once again, if Kobe was doing this type of stuff Sportscenter would make it the focus of their show. Because of the lack of media attention that Kobe's "secret charity" gets (as contrasted with the hugh amount of attention the rest of his life gets) leads me to coclude that he's not doing it. And funny as my comment about Mcgrady is to you - you have done nothing to refute the idea of Mcgrady's greater attention to charity. Sorry.


I never contested Kobe's charities. I point is charity is something that is should not be publicised. You do it for the benifit of others not yourself.




> No, it's not "mute" (??? - Were you trying for "moot"?)


Nah man, "mute." I'm from around the way. Like I wish I had a remote control for everytime you speak so I can push the mute button to silence you! "mute"



> Not sure how your fevered brain came to the conclusion that I agreed with you. Maybe a better explanation will help - You brought out the idea that Mcgrady's team was doing worse this year than last and some how that was an indicator of Mcgrady's ability to lead a team. I pointed out that he (Mcgrady) has even less to work with than last year.


That was exactly my point. "Tmac fan" used to excuse that Orland couldnt get out of the first round because Tmac had no help. Last year they finished 4th, he had help just couldnt get the job done. This year it fits. Fever that!





> I watch a few. I didn't catch the Lakers/Philly game, but I also didn't watch the Lakers game where Allan Houston lit Kobe up for 50.


What more. BTW, would you take your most athletic defender and have him check the less athletic oppossing defender? Neither would Phil. Kobe guards Spreewell when they play NY, and Fox guard Houston.





> Yeah - good points. Brings him in right @ 2 on the Lakers last-second depth chart, right behind Horry.


:mrt: You still think Horry is the Laker go to man?



> Okay - I'm living in a "fictious" (were you going for "fictitious"?) world. You, on the other hand, are illiterate. If you would read my post you will note that I agree the ball is in Kobe's hands at the end of the game - for the express purpose of getting it to Horry.


again the fool has been pitied! :mrt:

Just becasue you give a player a compliment and then back it up with bashing it doesnt make you objective.

Horry is not option A on any play LA runs. :mrt:




> And you think Kobe's 3 or 4 last few seconds shots and the plays where he sets up Horry indicate what? It's obvious, based on sheer amount, that Horry is the number one last-second option and Kobe the 2nd.


Horry is the same option as Fox, & Fisher. They are all the "C" option. Kobe is the A, B is to find Shaq and C is find an open shooter. You know nothing about the Lakers.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> Its because he's not the teams best player. Kobe gets the shots because he's a SG a perimeter player. Big men dont need to shot as much as guards.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> 
> I never contested Kobe's charities. I point is charity is something that is should not be publicised. You do it for the benifit of others not yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah man, "mute." I'm from around the way. Like I wish I had a remote control for everytime you speak so I can push the mute button to silence you! "mute"
> 
> 
> That was exactly my point. "Tmac fan" used to excuse that Orland couldnt get out of the first round because Tmac had no help. Last year they finished 4th, he had help just couldnt get the job done. This year it fits. Fever that!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What more. BTW, would you take your most athletic defender and have him check the less athletic oppossing defender? Neither would Phil. Kobe guards Spreewell when they play NY, and Fox guard Houston.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :mrt: You still think Horry is the Laker go to man?
> 
> 
> again the fool has been pitied! :mrt:
> 
> Just becasue you give a player a compliment and then back it up with bashing it doesnt make you objective.
> 
> Horry is not option A on any play LA runs. :mrt:
> 
> 
> 
> Horry is the same option as Fox, & Fisher. They are all the "C" option. Kobe is the A, B is to find Shaq and C is find an open shooter. You know nothing about the Lakers.


Wow you have 2259 posts!!! That is incredible!!!


----------



## BigTMacFan

Yet another great post by IV! Devoid of any rational argument or factual basis.

Well done. Most people give up before now, but you do a great job of







of reality.

Anyway, I want to react to one part of your post.



> What more. BTW, would you take your most athletic defender and have him check the less athletic oppossing defender? Neither would Phil. Kobe guards Spreewell when they play NY, and Fox guard Houston.


So Kobe guards the best offensive player only when it's convenient for him? Or are you saying that Phil and Kobe are so stupid that they won't switch the best perimeter player onto the player ripping their team a new one? Sorry, I don't buy that.

Hey, look at it this way - you got through one post with out a gross typo or grammatical error. Well, if you discount your attempt to be funny w/ the word "mute".



> No comment


/\ IV's greatest contribution to a discussion.


----------



## Lakers_32_4ever

Not to mock you Tmacfan, but it is argument, not "arguement". Also, that phrase is a fragment and it is convenient, not "convieniet" . 

You rip us for grammar, same to you, buddy.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Lakers_32_4ever</b>!
> Not to mock you Tmacfan, but it is argument, not "arguement". Also, that phrase is a fragment and it is convenient, not "convieniet" .
> 
> You rip us for grammar, same to you, buddy.


Admitted and edited - sometimes you get a little sore typing, leads to typos. I'm leaving the fragment though - readability issues.


----------



## TheRifleman

<b>"Its funny how last year the "team"<u> finished 4th</u> in the conference and Tmac was given credit for completely carring that team by himself, and this year they are squeaking by, his numbers have risen, and he's still doing it all by himself. I might by that excuse this year, but last year?...... "

"...Last year they finished 4th, he had help just couldnt get the job done. This year it fits. Fever that!"</b>

Last season, the Magic finished<b><font color=blue> 5th</b></font> to the Hornets - <b>NOT 4th</b>, who quite obviously had home floor advantage over the Magic in the first round.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> So Kobe guards the best offensive player only when it's convenient for him?


No only when its convenient for you. You did say you didnt see the game, so why assume Kobe guarded Allan? Regardless, Spreewell is the better player.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> <b>"Its funny how last year the "team"<u> finished 4th</u> in the conference and Tmac was given credit for completely carring that team by himself, and this year they are squeaking by, his numbers have risen, and he's still doing it all by himself. I might by that excuse this year, but last year?...... "
> 
> "...Last year they finished 4th, he had help just couldnt get the job done. This year it fits. Fever that!"</b>
> 
> Last season, the Magic finished<b><font color=blue> 5th</b></font> to the Hornets - <b>NOT 4th</b>, who quite obviously had home floor advantage over the Magic in the first round.


they both had the same record, The hornets had the tie breaker because of the regular season wins, but they were also at a disadvantage because Jamal Mashburn was out with injuries.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Admitted and edited - *sometimes you get a little sore typing, leads to typos.* I'm leaving the fragment though - readability issues.


?????


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> they both had the same record, The hornets had the tie breaker because of the regular season wins, but they were also at a disadvantage because Jamal Mashburn was out with injuries.


As big of a disadvantage as Orlando having Grant Hill out w/ injury?


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> As big of a disadvantage as Orlando having Grant Hill out w/ injury?


No, because Orlando had that record playing the entire season without Grant Hill, If they had him they could have won 10+ more games. Charlotte played with Mash the entire season and he got injured in the final month.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow you have 2259 posts!!! That is incredible!!!


Thank you!


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> No, because Orlando had that record playing the entire season without Grant Hill,<b><font color=blue> If </b></font>they had him they could have won 10+ more games. Charlotte played with Mash the entire season and he got injured in the final month.


"IF" is such a huge word. You are positive that "IF" the Magic had had Hill, they would have won 10+ games? Mike Miller got hurt the last month of last season also and couldn't play worth a dang when he tried to in the playoffs!!! . 

BTW, whatever does that have to do with the question? I cannot imagine anybody saying that not having Shaq would NOT make a difference - in the regular season and definitely in the playoffs. The same thing is true of the Magic without Hill/Outlaw/<b>MIKE MILLER</b> and the Hornets without Mashburn/Baron - in the regular season and/or the playoffs


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> they both had the same record, The hornets had the tie breaker because of the regular season wins, but they were also at a disadvantage because Jamal Mashburn was out with injuries.


Orlando didn't have Grant Hill or, for the most part, an effective Mike Miller.

Orlando also didnt have Elden Campbell, PJ Brown, Jamaal Magloire, or George Lynch. Hell, Orlando even could have used Tractor Traylor.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> "IF" is such a huge word. You are positive that "IF" the Magic had had Hill, they would have won 10+ games?


Nothing more than a guestimation. Most, if not all, Tmac fans complain about him not having any help because of Grant Hill's injuries. Isn't it safe to say that "IF" Grant Hill were healthy the Magic would be better off? How is that far fetch? Its the basis of every argument about the lack of success in Orlando over the past 3 years.



> BTW, whatever does that have to do with the question?


It has everything to do with the question. IMO, the Hornets played the 2002 season with a healthy roster until Mashburn got injured late in the season. It is a disadvantage to lose arguably your best player to injuries in May. 

"Big Tmac fan" argued :

_As big of a disadvantage as Orlando having Grant Hill out w/ injury?_

My reply:

No because the Magic did very well last year in the absence of Grant Hill, they still managed to have the same record as the Hornet with both Mash & Baron. I would imagine that if they had Hill they could have done better because he is a key addition to the roster. That's just clear cut reasoning.
The Hornets got their seed playing the season with Mash and he went down, disadvantage.


----------



## Mulk

IV, look at the rosters of the two teams. Hornets had a big frontcourt compared to most teams and its HUGE and deep compared to the Magic's. 

Then add the fact that Miller was out with sprained ankles and cudnt run or jump and wouldnt have been playin if it wasnt the playoffs. Then you add the fact that Armstrong was run down by the end of the season (look why they signed Vaughn and Whitney this year), that takes away the 2nd and 3rd options. T-Mac aslo missed games in the stretch before the playoffs so wasn't exactly 100%.

The only players that were healthy and a threat other than T-Mac were the turnover prone Hudson and Garrity. Then you ahve to remember that Garrity was starting and aginast a big frontcourt, whatever he he scores he gives double away. The Magic had very little chance of going through and anyone who says otherwise either knows nothing about basketball/magic or is just plain hatin on T-Mac saying he can't lead a team.


----------



## IV

I dont think that the bigger team has an advantage over the smaller just because they are bigger. And I understand that the season can take its toll on players by the post season. With that said, both teams finished with the same record meaning they were equally as good at the end of the year. Both teams had injured players, and both teams had older players that were worn down. It's not a mismatch considering Tmac is arguably the best player in the NBA, and Baron Davis is more like a top 20 player in the NBA. He just got out played by another superstar in critical moments of that series.


----------



## Mulk

^^^^^^^^^ I can respect that IV, but you have to respect that certain teams cause other teams matchup problems because of certain players that they have, even if the teams have the same ability's. The Hornets are a matchup problem because of their frontcourt size and depth. 

On the T-Mac Davis issue, my belief of this is that T-Mac was pretty much finished by the end of the games after having to do EVERYTHING for the team in the previous quaters to even keep the Magic in the game. If he had any sort of help during the games then I would not use this argument so please don't just discount this argument with "That proves he isn't clutch" but try to argue against it.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Mulk</b>!
> ^^^^^^^^^ I can respect that IV, but you have to respect that certain teams cause other teams matchup problems because of certain players that they have, even if the teams have the same ability's. The Hornets are a matchup problem because of their frontcourt size and depth.


Absolutely.

I know exactly what you mean. I live in DC and last night Tmac roasted the Wizards. Washington has no one that can check him. 



> On the T-Mac Davis issue, my belief of this is that T-Mac was pretty much finished by the end of the games after having to do EVERYTHING for the team in the previous quaters to even keep the Magic in the game. If he had any sort of help during the games then I would not use this argument so please don't just discount this argument with "That proves he isn't clutch" but try to argue against it.


Tracy is a great player. Dont mistake me judging him as hating. I just dont see the clutch or defense in him that would better his game. As far as not having any help, You might be surprised to see how much help he did have if you review the box scores. Garrity, Hudson(gave him 20+ off the bench one game), Monte, Armstrong all scored in double figures most of the games. Miller did a little, but he was hurt, Horace did a little but he is old, Hecht, Ewing even gave him 11 points and 10 rebounds in the last game. The effort was there.


----------



## Mulk

I know Garrity and Hudson but you have to remember that Garrity gives up many more points than he scores as he gets abused in the post nightly as he is so undersized. 

To answer the clutch questions, In my opinion, T-Mac is clutch in the sense that he has to bring his A game to even keep the Magic in games. In a buzzer-beating sense I believe he will learn how to be clutch in the tight games as he gains more experience. Look at Kobe (airballs agianst Utah), now he is considered one of the most clutch players in the league. You have to have been in a situation and either beat it and gain confidence or lose and learn from your mistakes.

Onto the defense issue. I believe T-Mac's defense is very underrated and exaggerated. Remember in Toronto T-Mac was a very good defender and they used him to check the oppositions best perimiter threat so Vince could tear it up on the offensive end. If he was this good then he can't of suddnely got worse. Also, he has to put so much in on the offense that he simply needs to rest on the defensive end, this is for 2 reasons, one he has to keep the Magic in games with his offense and two, he always has to check the oppositions best player as there is NO ONE on the Magic that can defend other than T-Mac. T-Mac defense has also improved considerably since the all-star break, I believe this is because he hasn't had to carry the offensive load since the G-Unit have arrived (Gooden and Giricek). To be a great offensive and defensive player in my opinion you have to have a defensive or at least offensive partner on your team, look at Kobe and MJ in his prime, Kobe has Shaq to help with the offense and Fox to take defensive duties until someone needs to be shut down and Kobe takes over, MJ had Pippen who could put all his efforts into defending and let MJ handle the offense. I think that T-Mac could be just a good a defender as Kobe if he had a guy like Fox who could defend the best player for periods in the game and let Tracy get some rest. By the way, Im not taking anything away from MJ or Kobe's defense, just pointing out the help they get.


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> Absolutely.
> 
> I know exactly what you mean. I live in DC and last night Tmac roasted the Wizards. Washington has no one that can check him.
> 
> 
> 
> Tracy is a great player. Dont mistake me judging him as hating. I just dont see the clutch or defense in him that would better his game. As far as not having any help, You might be surprised to see how much help he did have if you review the box scores. <b>Garrity</b>, Hudson(gave him 20+ off the bench<b> one game)</b>, Monte<b>, Armstrong </b>all scored in double figures <b>most </b>of the games. Miller did a little, but he was hurt, Horace did a little but he is old, Hecht, Ewing even gave him 11 points and 10 rebounds in the <b>last game. The effort was there.</b>



Imho, that appears today the same way it appeared to me last year - <b>inconsistent help</b>. It is like someone saying the Magic should make the playoffs this year with an added "BIG" man in the paint in Gooden - forgetting he is a <b>rookie</b> and wouldn't have a clue about the playoff atmosphere - IF the Magic do manage to make the playoffs this year.

Armstrong had so many critical turnovers in that series, as he has had almost all season thus far. He is a very old nearly 35 year old.

GARRITY is such a bad starting player, he is even too stupid to use up his 6 fouls! He gives up twice as many points as he inconsistently scores. His rebounding is laughable.


----------



## JNice

Let me point out again on Tmac's defense:

Tmac as far as career is WAY ahead of Kobe as far as blocked shots

Tmac is right on par with Kobe for career as far as steals

Tmac's defense has not looked as good this year, again, because the team has been playing a whole lot of zone, or some form of it, for most of the season. I believe also that Doc does not have Tmac playing against the other team's best anymore because he doesnt want Tmac defending the guy who is going to shoot, he wants him back to rebound the misses.. since he is basically the best rebounder on the team (or was before Gooden).

Anyone should agree, it is much harder to standout defensively while playing a zone, especially if you are not an in-the-paint shotblocker.


----------



## grizzoistight

*big deal about block shots*

tmac is a lot taller and a lot longer.. he should block more shots
and he should rebound more


----------



## JNice

*Re: big deal about block shots*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> tmac is a lot taller and a lot longer.. he should block more shots
> and he should rebound more


I don't care what the reason. He has been, so why is Kobe so lauded defensively?

A recent poll on ESPN:

This was cut-and-paste after I voted --


3) Does the media plays favorites when casting their MVP votes? 

92.5% Yes 

7.5% No 

21,000 votes 

I am guessing that many of these people would think this on other voting issues as well. I guess I am not the only one who thinks post-season awards are influenced by more than just performance.


----------



## shobe42

It's extremely ridiculous to base defensive ability by blocked shots. Defense can't be measured with statistics.

For the record, I live in Chicago and there have been articles all week on the Lakers. Everybody in all the papers said that whether or not Kobe is as good as MJ, *he is the best player in the league*


----------



## grizzoistight

*Re: big deal about block shots*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> tmac is a lot taller and a lot longer.. he should block more shots
> and he should rebound more


deebo you were the one who pointed it out..
by the way can u feel your playoff spot slipping?? 
u can hate on the lakers but their in..
8 for 27 or whatever he was isnt gonna cut it.. esp not for the 'best baller in the league'


----------



## JNice

*Re: Re: big deal about block shots*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> 
> deebo you were the one who pointed it out..
> by the way can u feel your playoff spot slipping??
> u can hate on the lakers but their in..
> 8 for 27 or whatever he was isnt gonna cut it.. esp not for the 'best baller in the league'


I know I pointed it out. I dont care if he is taller, longer, or a martian.. fact is, it is true.

I don't care about our playoff spot. I would rather see Orlando not make the playoffs so they can get a better chance at a good big man or stud PG in the draft.

8 for 27 .. who cares, one game, still 32 points, and only losing by one when Malone eats Drew Gooden alive for 40 points and almost a triple-d.. At least we didnt lose to Chicago.


----------



## grizzoistight

*haha its one game bro*

we have 3 rings..
tmac has i think 4 straight first round exits..

Hey genius click on this


----------



## ChiBron

^^Magic have lost 2 in a row(both down to the wire), but the Bucks have lost 2 in a row as well and their next easy game will be on March 26, against the Nuggets. Currently the Magic still got a game over them and I only see that leading moving up. 9th seed Wizards have a tough stretch of games coming up too, and this doen't even include the suicidal western trip. Magic's next 4 games r against the Hornets, Miami, Cavs and the Miami again. I smell atleast a 3 game winning streak.

btw, lakers seem to be in a slump too. Ur boy Kobe with only 21 pts(9-23 fg). Then got torched by Billups on the other end.

So both Lakers and Magic hangin' on the 7th seed.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> Let me point out again on Tmac's defense:
> 
> Tmac as far as career is WAY ahead of Kobe as far as blocked shots
> 
> Tmac is right on par with Kobe for career as far as steals
> 
> Tmac's defense has not looked as good this year, again, because the team has been playing a whole lot of zone, or some form of it, for most of the season. I believe also that Doc does not have Tmac playing against the other team's best anymore because he doesnt want Tmac defending the guy who is going to shoot, he wants him back to rebound the misses.. since he is basically the best rebounder on the team (or was before Gooden).
> 
> Anyone should agree, it is much harder to standout defensively while playing a zone, especially if you are not an in-the-paint shotblocker.


Have you ever wondered why Allen Iverson who constently leads the league in steals never wins an all defensive team award? Or why Shaq is who an excellent shot blocker has only been on the all defensive team twice in his career, never first team? Its because defensive has a lot more to do than just steals and blocks. 

Tmac has 200 more blocked shots than Kobe over his career.
Kobe has 150 more steals than Tmac over his career.

No big deal.

Kobe is a better on the ball defender. He's more agressive defensively, and he has the awards to prove it. Tmac is a pretty good defenders, he's just not in Kobe's class. There is no argument; the proof is in the pudding.


----------



## IV

*What happened last night?*

How did the Magic lose to Utah? 

Lat night I was watching college hoops on ESPN, when I saw the score to the Utah/Orlando game. Orlando was up by 10 with 4 minutes to play. I figured they would win the game, but saw that Utah had came back and won the game on NBA.com this morning. So what happened? 

I suspect Orlando had a little trouble finding someone who could put the ball in the basket in the clutch?????????????


----------



## Mulk

IV, do you ever have decent arguments? I mean, look at the reasons I put for T-Mac's defense and clutch performance. You say you got love for T-Mac but you post something negative about him every post Magic related. 

"Kove Lovers" wonder why people despise Kobe so much, its partly because of his fans who can't accept it when they say Kobe is great but he is not as good as Duncan, Shaq etc. Another reason is their reluctance to actually argue points but just expect people with other opinions to accept their views. As a "T-Mac fan (More so a Magic fan) I can easily accept it if some one said they consider Kobe better than T-Mac as long as they used a sensible argument and didnt just say something like "Kobe has rings". 

Look earlier in this thread, there is an argument about why Kobe has more steals than T-Mac, now this is partly because Kobe is a better stealer than T-Mac but also because he has a shotblocking monster inside in Shaq that T-Mac does not have. As a non kobe fan said that it is easier for Kobe to gamble on defense to allow him to get steals because he has a shotblocker inside, a Kobe fan said that this was a typical "Kobe has Shaq argument" from a hater when in fact it is pretty basic basketball knowledge that unless you are a veritable thief then having any sort of shotblocker in the paint will mean you can afford to gamble more on defense with steals etc. This just sums up a typical Kobe fan's argument where they discount other people's argument with "comedy" or label someone a "hater". I suppose I'l get the label as a "hater" when in fact I love Kobe's game.


----------



## BigTMacFan

*Re: What happened last night?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> How did the Magic lose to Utah?
> 
> Lat night I was watching college hoops on ESPN, when I saw the score to the Utah/Orlando game. Orlando was up by 10 with 4 minutes to play. I figured they would win the game, but saw that Utah had came back and won the game on NBA.com this morning. So what happened?
> 
> I suspect Orlando had a little trouble finding someone who could put the ball in the basket in the clutch?????????????


Probably the same thing that happened to L.A. against Chicago.


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> Kobe is a better on the ball defender. He's more agressive defensively, and he has the awards to prove it. Tmac is a pretty good defenders, he's just not in Kobe's class. There is no argument; the proof is in the pudding.


You claim that statistics don't matter, but individual awards do?

The only "proof in the pudding" is that Kobe has a 300lb gorilla behind him that allows him to go chest-to-chest with his man, knowing that if he gets beat then Shaq will rotate over and eat the offensive player.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Mulk</b>!
> IV, do you ever have decent arguments? I mean, look at the reasons I put for T-Mac's defense and clutch performance. You say you got love for T-Mac but you post something negative about him every post Magic related.


Apparently, I do have decent arguements at least according to you.



> Originally posted by *Mulk*!
> I can respect that IV


Sorry if you get offend by my criticing Tmac. I critic Shaq all the time. I even critic Kobe who had an awful 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters against the Pistons last night. There are always things that can be done to improve a players game. When we argue Kobe/Tmac you hear me talk about clutch and defense, while Kobe antagonist argue Shaq, and media hype.



> "Kove Lovers" wonder why people despise Kobe so much, its partly because of his fans who can't accept it when they say *Kobe is great but he is not as good as Duncan, Shaq etc.*


Its only natural that a Kobe fan would not except you saying he is not as good as Duncan, Shaq, etc. Plus, many non Kobe fans feel that he is the best player in the league.



> Another reason is their reluctance to actually argue points but *just expect people with other opinions to accept their views.* As a "T-Mac fan (More so a Magic fan) I can easily accept it if some one said they consider Kobe better than T-Mac as long as they used a sensible argument and didnt just say something like "Kobe has rings".


Its just our POV. If you can find place where all people agree with one another that would be remarkable, I dont believe such a place exist. Plus the bolded portion of this quote is a contradiction to the aforementioned quote were you say that Kobe fans dont except the views that Duncan & Shaq are better.

BTW, I dont use the Kobe has rings argument, never have. Kobe is better because they both are superior offensive players, but Kobe is a superior defensive player where as Tmac is just a good defender. I also dont see Tracy as a under pressure performer. 



> Look earlier in this thread, there is an argument about why Kobe has more steals than T-Mac, now this is partly because Kobe is a better stealer than T-Mac but also because he has a shotblocking monster inside in Shaq that T-Mac does not have.


Let me have my say. I just do not agree with that. Kobe is Kobe defensively regardless who is on the court with him. I dont think Doug Christie would up his steals average if he played with Shaq. He's agreat defender regardless, so is Kobe.



> As a non kobe fan said that it is easier for Kobe to gamble on defense to allow him to get steals because he has a shotblocker inside, a Kobe fan said that this was a typical "Kobe has Shaq argument" from a hater when in fact it is pretty basic basketball knowledge that unless you are a veritable thief then having any sort of shotblocker in the paint will mean you can afford to gamble more on defense with steals etc. This just sums up a typical Kobe fan's argument where they discount other people's argument with "comedy" or label someone a "hater". I suppose I'l get the label as a "hater" when in fact I love Kobe's game.


I dont consider you a hater. Your thoughts are valid, and they seem objective. I have heard the Shaq argument many times, I just dont buy it as far as making Kobe a better defender. He may be able to gamble more, but he is still just as good a defender. He is a great on ball defender and that has nothing to do with having whoever behind you. Kobe is all NBA defense team every year, Shaq's not. Does anyone ever say that Kobe defensive presence makes SHaq a better defender? Does it help to have a guy who plays great D and can lead opponents right to you for easy blocks because he's got them so preoccupied. Why doesn't it ever go both ways with these guys? Kobe was averaging 3+ steals without Shaq this year and the numbers have gone down with him.


----------



## IV

*Re: Re: What happened last night?*



> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Probably the same thing that happened to L.A. against Chicago.


Which is what?


----------



## Obe1Kobe

> Originally posted by <b>Mulk</b>!
> IV, do you ever have decent arguments? I mean, look at the reasons I put for T-Mac's defense and clutch performance. You say you got love for T-Mac but you post something negative about him every post Magic related.
> 
> "Kove Lovers" wonder why people despise Kobe so much, its partly because of his fans who can't accept it when they say Kobe is great but he is not as good as Duncan, Shaq etc. Another reason is their reluctance to actually argue points but just expect people with other opinions to accept their views. As a "T-Mac fan (More so a Magic fan) I can easily accept it if some one said they consider Kobe better than T-Mac as long as they used a sensible argument and didnt just say something like "Kobe has rings".
> 
> Look earlier in this thread, there is an argument about why Kobe has more steals than T-Mac, now this is partly because Kobe is a better stealer than T-Mac but also because he has a shotblocking monster inside in Shaq that T-Mac does not have. As a non kobe fan said that it is easier for Kobe to gamble on defense to allow him to get steals because he has a shotblocker inside, a Kobe fan said that this was a typical "Kobe has Shaq argument" from a hater when in fact it is pretty basic basketball knowledge that unless you are a veritable thief then having any sort of shotblocker in the paint will mean you can afford to gamble more on defense with steals etc. This just sums up a typical Kobe fan's argument where they discount other people's argument with "comedy" or label someone a "hater". I suppose I'l get the label as a "hater" when in fact I love Kobe's game.




Do you still need the ability and quickness to actually get the steal, or is it handed to you when you have a shot blocker behind you? Doug Christe gets many steals, and who is his shot blocker...Not Vlade. Most steals I see happen further out on the perimeter, while people are still in transition, which hardly has anything to do with the big man who is usually trailing behind the play. There are alot of steals in one on one out at the three line while offenses are setting plays. A player tries a cross over gets the ball tapped and they're off to the races diving at the ball. The Mavs get turnovers from team hussle defense and outright wreckless abandon by one Steve Nash. But you do have a point, there are those occasional steals that happen because a penetrator needs to dish because of the inside presence and in his haste to get rid of the ball, throws it to the wrong player. So there is a small fraction of percentages that support your claim of the big men assisting in steals.


----------



## BigTMacFan

*Re: Re: Re: What happened last night?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Which is what?


They had a bad game. Or - maybe it was closer to what you intimated about Orlando - L.A. couldn't find someone to come through in the "clutch".


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Obe1Kobe</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you still need the ability and quickness to actually get the steal, or is it handed to you when you have a shot blocker behind you? Doug Christe gets many steals, and who is his shot blocker...Not Vlade. Most steals I see happen further out on the perimeter, while people are still in transition, which hardly has anything to do with the big man who is usually trailing behind the play. There are alot of steals in one on one out at the three line while offenses are setting plays. A player tries a cross over gets the ball tapped and they're off to the races diving at the ball. The Mavs get turnovers from team hussle defense and outright wreckless abandon by one Steve Nash. But you do have a point, there are those occasional steals that happen because a penetrator needs to dish because of the inside presence and in his haste to get rid of the ball, throws it to the wrong player. So there is a small fraction of percentages that support your claim of the big men assisting in steals.


*edit* - nevermind - Obe didn't write the stuff about stats not being an indicator of defensive prowess.


Anyway - the point of the matter is that Kobe has more opportunity to get within arm's reach of the man he's guarding because he has Shaq behind him. Most players can't get chest-to-chest with a player like Iverson or Bibby becasue of their quickenss. Not so with Kobe - if his man gets a step on him Shaq rotates over and there is a 300lb black wall stopping the penetration.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> You claim that statistics don't matter, but individual awards do?


Seasonal averages, steals & blocks, are not what influence the award givers decision when selecting the best defenders at the end of the year. 

Defense does not equal steals and blocks. 



> The only "proof in the pudding" is that Kobe has a 300lb gorilla behind him that allows him to go chest-to-chest with his man, knowing that if he gets beat then Shaq will rotate over and eat the offensive player.


See *Mulk,* this is what I mean we talk about Tmac fans full of speculation instead of strictly talking defense? BigTmacfan would rather instigate an arguement about nothing than talk basketball. He'll bring up a misspelled word in a sentence instead of addressing the comments. Back 2 basketball.
Really think about this. How many players has Shaq played with, and how many have been all league defenders. Why aren't any of the houston rockets all league defenders, they have a monster too. Why are there no all league defender in Detriot other than Ben Wallace. After all, Ben is the defensive player of the year and that should make at least one of them as good as Kobe since Shaq does.
Its just doesnt make anysense.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> Anyway - the point of the matter is that Kobe has more opportunity to get within arm's reach of the man he's guarding because he has Shaq behind him. Most players can't get chest-to-chest with a player like Iverson or Bibby becasue of their quickenss. Not so with Kobe - if his man gets a step on him Shaq rotates over and there is a 300lb black wall stopping the penetration.


Would you make a list of all the all league defenders in the history of the league that have benifited the Kobe has from a big man?


----------



## Mulk

> Its just our POV. If you can find place where all people agree with one another that would be remarkable, I dont believe such a place exist. Plus the bolded portion of this quote is a contradiction to the aforementioned quote were you say that Kobe fans dont except the views that Duncan & Shaq are better.


Don't get me wrong, my point was that Laker fans cannot seem to take any one saying Kobe is not the BEST PLAYER, rather than saying he is in the top bracket along with T-Mac, Duncan, Shaq KG.

T-Mac criticism is perfectly valid, I too believe he needs to give more effort on defense and he will be better in pressure situations as he gains more experience. The thing is, Kobe fans just point these out without ever listening to the response.

All I said on the stealing was that there is a stopper in the paint, it wouldnt matter if it was shaq or Keon Clark, the fact is he can take more risks. Look at my previous post, I even said Kobe is the better stealer but a shotblocker helps a wingman take more chances. I never said having Shaq automatically takes his steal numbers up which is what you were implying, I was just saying he can take more chances, for example, T-Mac could do the same, he would average more steals but would give up more points as as soon as his man was passed him 2 points would be scored as there is no post presence.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Mulk</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, my point was that Laker fans cannot seem to take any one saying Kobe is not the BEST PLAYER, rather than saying he is in the top bracket along with T-Mac, Duncan, Shaq KG.


That's cool. Rather than say this player is the best player in the NBA, it is mush easier to say that this group of players are the best players in the NBA. You can make an arguement for all of them. That's why its cool to talk to you about Kobe/Tmac. We basically share a difference of opinion. But others just flat out hate.



> T-Mac criticism is perfectly valid, I too believe he needs to give more effort on defense and he will be better in pressure situations as he gains more experience. The thing is, Kobe fans just point these out without ever listening to the response.


I agree that Tmac will get better with more experience. But that is the same thing as saying Kobe is better now, for whatever reason. As far as "Kobe fan" not listening, some listen more than others. Take what you can get and work with it.

I'm out for the day, holla at yall tommorrow!


----------



## Mulk

aight, later dawg. HOLLA!!!!


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> Seasonal averages, steals & blocks, are not what influence the award givers decision when selecting the best defenders at the end of the year.
> 
> Defense does not equal steals and blocks.
> 
> 
> 
> See *Mulk,* this is what I mean we talk about Tmac fans full of speculation instead of strictly talking defense? BigTmacfan would rather instigate an arguement about nothing than talk basketball. He'll bring up a misspelled word in a sentence instead of addressing the comments. Back 2 basketball.
> Really think about this. How many players has Shaq played with, and how many have been all league defenders. Why aren't any of the houston rockets all league defenders, they have a monster too. Why are there no all league defender in Detriot other than Ben Wallace. After all, Ben is the defensive player of the year and that should make at least one of them as good as Kobe since Shaq does.
> Its just doesnt make anysense.


You've got to be kidding me - you don't watch the Pistons, Rockets, and heck, even the Mavs when Bradley is in the game go chest to chest with their man in an effor to funnell them to the hole?

Of course they do - that's "back to basketball"

You, on the other hand, like to deflect and criticism about Kobe - anything that says he might benefit from playing with the most dominant player in the league. Join me - come "back to basketball".

And yeah - learn how to write and type while you are at it.


----------



## Obe1Kobe

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> Hey wait a minute - you can't talk about how stats don't mean anything in one thread, then use them as an idicator of how good a defender a player is in the next.



Did I say stats don't mean anything? I don't recall that. Anyhow it does depend on the type of stat. Alot of players may get rebounds due to a teammate using excellent box out technique. There is no stat that shows the person that boxed out, however the other defender still shows a rebound on his stat. Just a small example of some stats being misleading.



> Anyway - the point of the matter is that Kobe has more opportunity to get within arm's reach of the man he's guarding because he has Shaq behind him. Most players can't get chest-to-chest with a player like Iverson or Bibby becasue of their quickenss. Not so with Kobe - if his man gets a step on him Shaq rotates over and there is a 300lb black wall stopping the penetration.


I see your point, as mentioned in my previous post, that there is some consideration given to Shaq. Kobe is an excellent man up defender and he generates alot of his own steals, Shaq in or not. He may have a slight advantage or a "padded" steals stat due to Shaq, but I don't think it's so great that it should be an issue when speaking of his defense in regards to steals. Over all defense is aided when you have a low post presence, but athletic ability as well as game savvy have alot to do with steals.


When mentioning AI, he has the ability to go around any player and has that teardrop off the board or straight in when there is a low post presence. AI does not let low post presence deter him. He simply got shut down by the defender in front of him (vs. Kobe in their last game) before he got a chance to confront Shaq. At least thats what I saw.


So again, I agree with the idea of the low post presence having an effect on steals. I just dont agree with that being the major factor of a person ability to make a steal.
I think that comes with talent and a knack to do it.


----------



## Lizzy

Kobe's defense is overrated that's why. He shouldn't win those defense awards and he does. Last season he let back to back players score career highs on him. Maggette and someone from Denver. Posey, I think. Two nights ago he let Rose shoot 50% from the field. (Rose has been shooting 41% this season). 

He plays great defense for about 4 minutes a game. He ends up with the awards that Artest, Snow, Christie, Bowen, Brown, Wallace, Payton, etc should be winning.


----------



## beautifulkobe

Just a few more things regaring kobe and the mj comparisons.

Its gotten really crazy this year.Everybody and their grandmother compares kobe to MJ.He is like mj..Even when you watch jordan at 40 with his fadeways thats exactly what kobe looks like.Phil was asked about it at chicago and he even said kobe is like mj with his mannerisms,some of his moves etc.

Kobe doesnt realize it though.In a one on one epsn sportscenter special he was asked about the comparisons.All he said was they are the same height, and both played under texs triangle.He doesnt see how much he acts and plays like mj.He also hates being compared to mj.


By the way fox is a horrible defender this year.He is a step slow and dont get me started on fisher.Kobe is the only good defender the lakers have and sometimes like against philly he has to run around the court guarding 5 people at once.He does gamble sometimes though.


what a horrible game he had against detroit!That made me sick!





Why do you think mcgrady doesnt get as much media attention as kobe?


----------



## H2O

I can't believe that Kobe fans are disputing the fact that a defender can take more risks when they have a dominant shot blocker. You can overplay someone a bit becuase ypou know, even if your man beats you, that he isn't getting the automatic 2. That is true and indisputable, how could anyone say otherwise.

BTW, Kobe is a great defender and great at steals, but please, accept rational thoughts when they arise. Don't dismiss them because they don't support all of you goals.


----------



## Obe1Kobe

I'm certainly not disputing the "rationale." for the third time Low post presence plays some role in steals. At the same time I say that Shaq is not the reason Kobe does what he does. Everytime Kobe does something spectacular it's because of Shaq's presence. Just let the man be himself and try your best not to belittle his game because he has Shaq. His numbers will be there even after Shaq is not!


----------



## BigTMacFan

> Originally posted by <b>Obe1Kobe</b>!
> I'm certainly not disputing the "rationale." for the third time Low post presence plays some role in steals. At the same time I say that Shaq is not the reason Kobe does what he does. Everytime Kobe does something spectacular it's because of Shaq's presence. Just let the man be himself and try your best not to belittle his game because he has Shaq. His numbers will be there even after Shaq is not!


Obe - I just wanted to clarify - you responded to my post where I talked about you saying stats don't matter... I was incorrect - Ivy wrote that, not you, so I edited my post.

The same is true in the matter of whether or not Shaq pads Kobe's defensive rep. Ivy is the on saying it has no bearing.


----------



## Obe1Kobe

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Obe - I just wanted to clarify - you responded to my post where I talked about you saying stats don't matter... I was incorrect - Ivy wrote that, not you, so I edited my post.
> 
> The same is true in the matter of whether or not Shaq pads Kobe's defensive rep. Ivy is the on saying it has no bearing.


 It's all good, I kinda chimed in on a discussion that you two were having so if it's anybody's bad, it's mine:grinning:


----------



## ChiBron

> I can't believe that Kobe fans are disputing the fact that a defender can take more risks when they have a dominant shot blocker. You can overplay someone a bit becuase ypou know, even if your man beats you, that he isn't getting the automatic 2. That is true and indisputable, how could anyone say otherwise.
> 
> BTW, Kobe is a great defender and great at steals, but please, accept rational thoughts when they arise. Don't dismiss them because they don't support all of you goals.


LOL, this won't work against Kobe fans/fanatics. Anything that doesn't spell "Kobe is God" is take as an insult by his fans/fanatics. Gettin' into arguments with em' is a lost cause since they can't stand a single statement against him. To them, Kobe's perfect and clearly the best at everything. Doesn't take a genius to see that in their tone and writing style. If u disagree with anything Kobe fans write abt their man, then u r a "hater".

Can anyone believe they are disputing the fact that a center whose a defensive presence will always allow the perimeter defenders to gamble more and be a little more agressive on the defensive end? That's just basic basketball. If someone can't see something so simple and obvious, then y waste time arguing with em'?


----------



## Obe1Kobe

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> 
> 
> LOL, this won't work against Kobe fans/fanatics. Anything that doesn't spell "Kobe is God" is take as an insult by his fans/fanatics. Gettin' into arguments with em' is a lost cause since they can't stand a single statement against him. To them, Kobe's perfect and clearly the best at everything. Doesn't take a genius to see that in their tone and writing style. If u disagree with anything Kobe fans write abt their man, then u r a "hater".
> 
> Can anyone believe they are disputing the fact that a center whose a defensive presence will always allow the perimeter defenders to gamble more and be a little more agressive on the defensive end? That's just basic basketball. If someone can't see something so simple and obvious, then y waste time arguing with em'?



Hoo-humm-It's great to be perfect!


----------



## IV

*Rookies!*



> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> You've got to be kidding me - you don't watch the Pistons, Rockets, and heck, even the Mavs when Bradley is in the game go chest to chest with their man in an effor to funnell them to the hole?


How does this relate to something I've said?



> You, on the other hand, *like to deflect and criticism about Kobe* GRAMMAR! - anything that says he might benefit from playing with the most dominant player in the league. Join me - come "back to basketball".


Kobe benefits from playing with the most dominant player in basketball. Its would be foolish not to defer to the bigman. But its also is foolish to not think that Shaq benefits from playing with Kobe as well. He is arguably the best player in the NBA.




> And yeah - learn how to write and type while you are at it.


Isn't this guy funny. :laugh:
Listen up! This is a basketball forum, noone cares about spelling or gramatical errors. Maybe you can join the forum for the girls scouts of America and practice your spelling with them, we talk basketball here! 
and BTW, if you're so particular about others typing/writing, you should pay more attention to your own.



> *in an effor to funnell*


what is an "effor?" & what is a "funnell?"
:mrt:


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> Kobe's defense is overrated that's why. He shouldn't win those defense awards and he does. Last season he let back to back players score career highs on him. Maggette and someone from Denver. Posey, I think. Two nights ago he let Rose shoot 50% from the field. (Rose has been shooting 41% this season).


Last year Magette scored 28 points on Kobe and he did have a good game. But that should discredit Kobe's defensive awards. Kobe also shutdown Corey for 4 points in a game earlier that season. Posey scored 23 on Kobe. "23" just twenty-three points? It's not like he lit him up for 50. BTW, that wasn't Posey's career high.

This is tough criteria to discredit all league defenders, Surely you could find a game where Kidd, GP, or Christie had players score 23 or 28 points on them. 



> He plays great defense for about 4 minutes a game. He ends up with the awards that Artest, Snow, Christie, Bowen, Brown, Wallace, Payton, etc should be winning.


Payton, Wallace, and Christie are all league defenders. So is Kobe. 
Not to mention, Wallace, Artest, Bowen, and Brown can not replace Kobe on the all defensive teams because the selections are allocated by position.


----------



## rynobot

What happened to all those T-Mac lovers? Back a couple months ago people were voting T-Mac over Bryant, and now Bryant has a huge lead over McGrady. Of course Shaq leads in votes but that will change when he has another 13 point performance.


----------



## RapsFan

I wonder why they don't move this thread when they can move it to the lakers section or the magic section. Yet they move my thread which I put here to get people's attention of the NBA Draft we wish to do who do not visit the Games and Fantasy Basketball Section. Obviously the people who usually go to that section will know about it. I posted it here for a reason.


----------



## rynobot

> Originally posted by <b>RapsFan</b>!
> I wonder why they don't move this thread when they can move it to the lakers section or the magic section. Yet they move my thread which I put here to get people's attention of the NBA Draft we wish to do who do not visit the Games and Fantasy Basketball Section. Obviously the people who usually go to that section will know about it. I posted it here for a reason.


Don't know why? Ask the mod of the games forum to send it back or a community mod.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What happened to all those T-Mac lovers? Back a couple months ago people were voting T-Mac over Bryant, and now Bryant has a huge lead over McGrady. Of course Shaq leads in votes but that will change when he has another 13 point performance.


Because most people, especially casual fans just go with whatever is hot at the moment. Nobody was hotter than Bryant last month and he is fresh in everyone's mind.

Funny thing is, they win a few in a row, and Bryant is the greatest thing since sliced bread.. now they lose two disappointing games in a row and I've heard a lot less chatter about Bryant.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> Why do you think mcgrady doesnt get as much media attention as kobe?


Many reasons --

Huge market
One of NBA's most storied franchises
He plays with the NBA's most dominant player
His likeness in looks, speech, and game to MJ
For females, he's better looking (I know a lot of girls that had crushes on Bryant)
Team is winning more - most casual fans go with whatever team is on top


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!He plays great defense for about 4 minutes a game. He ends up with the awards that Artest, Snow, Christie, Bowen, Brown, Wallace, Payton, etc should be winning.


This is probably one of the most valid statements in this entire 20+ page thread. Thanks.


----------



## grizzoistight

*why deebo*

becuz its insulting kobe??
everyone always has excuses for tmac..
on why he cant do crap in the playoffs..
but i have yet to see an excuse for kobe.. i mean horry and fox are prob 38 years old and extremely slow..
tmac is in the leastern conf.. and is fighting for his life for a playoff spot.. thats not saying too much..
Yea hes gonna win the scoring title.. but i guarantee you he wont be in the top 4 in the mvp voting..


----------



## JNice

*Re: why deebo*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> becuz its insulting kobe??
> everyone always has excuses for tmac..
> on why he cant do crap in the playoffs..
> but i have yet to see an excuse for kobe.. i mean horry and fox are prob 38 years old and extremely slow..
> tmac is in the leastern conf.. and is fighting for his life for a playoff spot.. thats not saying too much..
> Yea hes gonna win the scoring title.. but i guarantee you he wont be in the top 4 in the mvp voting..


No, because it was true.

I dont think Horry or Fox are 38.

I dont think your guarantee is correct, nor does it mean squat.


----------



## IV

*Just because its what you want to hear doesn't make it a valid statement*



> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> This is probably one of the most valid statements in this entire 20+ page thread. Thanks.


Wallace, Artest, Bowen, and Brown can not replace Kobe on the all defensive teams because the selections are allocated by position. The only person that could replace him on that list is Eric Snow are that's not going to happen. 
Sidenote: Kobe did finish the runner up to Ben Wallace last year for the defensive player of the year award!


----------



## ChiBron

^^^ Actually, Kobe finished fourth. Behind Ben, KG and TD. He only got 1 vote, that too by Bill Walton.


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> ^^^ Actually, Kobe finished fourth. Behind Ben, KG and TD. He only got 1 vote, that too by Bill Walton.



Ah, there is nothing quite like the facts.

It is interesting that we have such a thread. one has to wonder if there was ever a discussion like this when Mike was in his early glory days - and who was good enough to be in his rarified air? I don't remember one happening in some of my bball discussions, but that little observation means "squat", too. :grinning:


----------



## Tom

This thread is:dead: :dead: :dead: :dead:


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> This thread is:dead: :dead: :dead: :dead:


Yeah. Nothing like a thread that involves the same 3-4 people arguing over and over and over.......


----------



## shobe42

Everything has been said nobody has changed. When do we get to the point where the thread gets closed and goes to the thread hall of fame?


----------



## Lakers_32_4ever

there is a thread hall of fame? where? i want to see


----------



## shobe42

I was just jokin' I don't believe there is, but its not a bad idea


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> ^^^ Actually, Kobe finished fourth. Behind Ben, KG and TD. He only got 1 vote, that too by Bill Walton.


I thought that Kobe, TD, & KG all got 1 vote? Not that it matters, Ben Wallace was clearly the leagues best defender.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> one has to wonder if there was ever a discussion like this when Mike was in his early glory days - and who was good enough to be in his rarified air? I don't remember one happening in some of my bball discussions.


You may be refering to Kobe Bryant.


----------



## The Krakken

35 pages?? Geez......


----------



## TheRifleman

> quote:
> Originally posted by TheRifleman!
> one has to wonder if there was ever a discussion like this when Mike was in his <b>early </b>glory days - and who was good enough to be in his rarified air? I don't remember one happening in some of my bball discussions.
> 
> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> You may be refering to Kobe Bryant.


<b>"Early"</b> being the operative word, as in 1988 - I believe Kobe was 9 years old at that time and not worthy to have his name linked with Mike during Mike's YOUNG, early glory days.


----------



## rustu

*meh....*

Neither of these guys interest me as much as AI....


----------



## King Alley

Kobe vs T Mac a topic discussed on mostly every bball forum. Both are phenomenal players. I dont think either of them have reached there Prime yet. Both out of highschool. Stats are very similar. T mac carries his team. Kobe has carried his team more this year then last. But he still has Shaq and could not carry the team alone like we saw in the early part of the season. Why do people argue about this I just call it a draw.


----------



## IV

Why is this thread not a sticky anymore?


----------



## rynobot

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> Why is this thread not a sticky anymore?


Because there were too many stickys up top.


----------



## Louie

*LeBron is not the next Jordan...*

Something I've realized from watching this kid on ESPN- Michael is not a very good comparison for him. That's not a knock on LeBron; I'm not saying he won't be as good as Michael- he very well could. But as far as their style of play, they are not all that similar.
During Michael's first 6 years or so of his career, he was 6'6 (some say closer to 6'5) and played at a weight somewhere in the 190's. People who only watched him in his later years forget how increcibly quick he was as a young player and how good his one-on-one skill was- he literally was like a 6'6 version of Iverson. Going to the basket, he was absolutely unstoppable- he could blow by any defender and split any double team. Once that happened, all you could do was foul him. 
By comparison, LeBron at _18 years old_ is already 6'8 240- he's got two inches and somewhere between 30 and 40 lbs. on the young Mike. He does not, however, seem to have his one-on-one skill and quickness -something that all the "next MJ"'s lack- neither LeBron, Kobe, or TMac seem to have this. What LeBron does have is great handles in his own right, superior size and strength, and a more natural feel for being a playmaker. Also, though he is not as quick as Michael, he is equally athletic jump-wise, posessing an incredible verticle leap. Does he still have the makings of a great player? Of course, but he's closer to a stronger, more athletic version of Magic Johnson than he is to Michael Jordan.
Style-wise, Kobe is the closest to Jordan of the three "heir Jordans". His game reminds me alot of Jordan's game in 1995 or 1996- though he does have very, very impressive speed and athleticism, he is not quite on the level of a young Mike. He does however, posess a very mature floor game with an turnaround J that is virtually unstoppable- something that it took Mike much longer to develope. He seems to be a much faster learner than Mike was, and is a great, great competitor in his own right.
TMac is probably the best pure shooter of the bunch, but seems to have more trouble creating his own shot. He's got some sick moves, but doesn't seem to have Mike's or Kobe's ability to get a shot (a good shot, that is) whenever he wants. His lack of any post game to speak of hurts him at this point. He does not have the turnaround J Kobe has, and he does not have the quickness to blow past any defender the way Jordan did. That's why I'd take Kobe over him at this point personally. Of course, there's alot of room for him to improve, so we'll just have to wait and see how he, Kobe, and LeBron cement their final legacies.


----------



## BleedGreen

This is one of the best posts I have ever read. I agree with everything. But I would take T-Mac over Kobe cuz I'm a Kobe hater


----------



## UKfan4Life

Agreed. Excellent post.

You can't compare players coming out of high school to NBA legends, IMO. Good job. This post should win an award.


----------



## Louie

Wow, thanks!


----------



## TheRifleman

Very nice post, although I have a slightly different opinion than you do when it comes to "post up" moves by TMac. I agree with Barkley on that point, TMac has the best post up moves of any guard today.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> Very nice post, although I have a slightly different opinion than you do when it comes to "post up" moves by TMac. I agree with Barkley on that point, TMac has the best post up moves of any guard today.


I agree with that. TMac is a very good post up player. He's just matured so much as a shooter that he doesn't use the back to the basket game as much anymore.


----------



## Yyzlin

Great analysis of Lebron James. I agree that people get so caught up with wanting a next MJ that they unfairly compare players that have little similarity to Jordan in terms of size, skills, and playing styles.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> Wow, thanks!


Is it just me or does Louie always get good responses? :grinning: Anyways, I think that was a very good analysis. MJ was a unique player and no one in the game right now is quite like him. Nor can I think of an NBA comparison for Kobe or TMac. I just wish NBA "people" would let these kids develop their own unique style of play and stop comparing them to past legends. I think Lebron will be a great player as well and he'll be the first Lebron not the next....


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Is it just me or does Louie always get good responses? :grinning: Anyways, I think that was a very good analysis. MJ was a unique player and no one in the game right now is quite like him. Nor can I think of an NBA comparison for Kobe or TMac. I just wish NBA "people" would let these kids develop their own unique style of play and stop comparing them to past legends. I think Lebron will be a great player as well and he'll be the first Lebron not the next....



AHHHHH! Refreshing! I really agree with this opinion.


----------



## Louie

> Very nice post, although I have a slightly different opinion than you do when it comes to "post up" moves by TMac. I agree with Barkley on that point, TMac has the best post up moves of any guard today.


Well, I certainly see what you mean- TMac can make some excellent moves out of a back to the basket position. I should have been more clear about this in initial post- when I said that he has "no post game to speak of", I was reffering more to the fact that he does not have the deadly turnaround fader that Jordan and Kobe have. TMac makes some awesome moves from a post-up position, but they tend to be spins and drop-steps more often than not from what I've seen. These are all well and good, and he executes them better than probably any guard in the league, but against teams with great interior defense he may have trouble getting them off. What I should have said was that he is not, IMO, as good at creating space for a jump shot out of a post-up position as Kobe and MJ are/were.


----------



## UKfan4Life

There should be a "Most reasonable analysis of a player comparison" award and this one should win it.


----------



## TMOD

Not to hate, but hasn't all this been common knowledge for a while???


----------



## Louie

> There should be a "Most reasonable analysis of a player comparison" award and this one should win it.


Wow, thanks again!


> Not to hate, but hasn't all this been common knowledge for a while???


Maybe for you, but I just thought I'd lay it out there for everyone else. Not everyone can be as knowledgable as you.


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>Ukfan4Life</b>!
> There should be a "Most reasonable analysis of a player comparison" award and this one should win it.


I second this nomination. :yes:


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> Well, I certainly see what you mean- TMac can make some excellent moves out of a back to the basket position. I should have been more clear about this in initial post- when I said that he has "no post game to speak of", I was reffering more to the fact that he does not have the deadly turnaround fader that Jordan and Kobe have. TMac makes some awesome moves from a post-up position, but they tend to be spins and drop-steps more often than not from what I've seen. These are all well and good, and he executes them better than probably any guard in the league, but against teams with great interior defense he may have trouble getting them off. <b>What I should have said was that he is not, IMO, as good at creating space for a jump shot out of a post-up position as Kobe and MJ are/were.</b>



Again, props!!


----------



## TMOD

> Maybe for you, but I just thought I'd lay it out there for everyone else. Not everyone can be as knowledgable as you.


Hey -- you still get props from me, too, because you put the whole idea and argument together better than anyone else ever has. Sorta like opening the window...:yes: 


> Again, props!!


What he said...


----------



## MiamiHeat03

well lebron is considered the best player ever in highschool bball.


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>MiamiHeat03</b>!
> well lebron is considered the best player ever in highschool bball.



While that may be true, that is probably what makes him unique. LBJ more than likely wants to be known as "The one and only LBJ", not the 2nd anybody else.


----------



## Louie

> Again, props!!


Thanks man- means alot coming from u.


> well lebron is considered the best player ever in highschool bball.


True- he is an incredibly early bloomer. Just look at him- he looks as if he could easily be 30-35 years old. BTW-check out this pic- is it just me, or does he look a little bit like Danny Glover, minus the grey hair?


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> Thanks man- means alot coming from u.
> 
> True- he is an incredibly early bloomer. Just look at him- he looks as if he could easily be 30-35 years old. BTW-check out this pic- is it just me, or does he look a little bit like Danny Glover, minus the grey hair?


Great artistic eye there. I agree, he REALLY does look like him - minus the grey hair - uncannily like him.


----------



## rynobot

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> Thanks man- means alot coming from u.
> 
> True- he is an incredibly early bloomer. Just look at him- he looks as if he could easily be 30-35 years old. BTW-check out this pic- is it just me, or does he look a little bit like Danny Glover, minus the grey hair?


Louie, your thoughts in the orginal post is eveything I think of the whole Kobe/Jordan/James?T-Mac sitiutation.


----------



## BallBiologist

*Re: LeBron is not the next Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> Something I've realized from watching this kid on ESPN- Michael is not a very good comparison for him. That's not a knock on LeBron; I'm not saying he won't be as good as Michael- he very well could. But as far as their style of play, they are not all that similar.
> During Michael's first 6 years or so of his career, he was 6'6 (some say closer to 6'5) and played at a weight somewhere in the 190's. People who only watched him in his later years forget how increcibly quick he was as a young player and how good his one-on-one skill was- he literally was like a 6'6 version of Iverson. Going to the basket, he was absolutely unstoppable- he could blow by any defender and split any double team. Once that happened, all you could do was foul him.
> By comparison, LeBron at _18 years old_ is already 6'8 240- he's got two inches and somewhere between 30 and 40 lbs. on the young Mike. He does not, however, seem to have his one-on-one skill and quickness -something that all the "next MJ"'s lack- neither LeBron, Kobe, or TMac seem to have this. What LeBron does have is great handles in his own right, superior size and strength, and a more natural feel for being a playmaker. Also, though he is not as quick as Michael, he is equally athletic jump-wise, posessing an incredible verticle leap. Does he still have the makings of a great player? Of course, but he's closer to a stronger, more athletic version of Magic Johnson than he is to Michael Jordan.
> Style-wise, Kobe is the closest to Jordan of the three "heir Jordans". His game reminds me alot of Jordan's game in 1995 or 1996- though he does have very, very impressive speed and athleticism, he is not quite on the level of a young Mike. He does however, posess a very mature floor game with an turnaround J that is virtually unstoppable- something that it took Mike much longer to develope. He seems to be a much faster learner than Mike was, and is a great, great competitor in his own right.
> TMac is probably the best pure shooter of the bunch, but seems to have more trouble creating his own shot. He's got some sick moves, but doesn't seem to have Mike's or Kobe's ability to get a shot (a good shot, that is) whenever he wants. His lack of any post game to speak of hurts him at this point. He does not have the turnaround J Kobe has, and he does not have the quickness to blow past any defender the way Jordan did. That's why I'd take Kobe over him at this point personally. Of course, there's alot of room for him to improve, so we'll just have to wait and see how he, Kobe, and LeBron cement their final legacies.



Great post man but I have to disagree ont he T-mac portion. Tmac can easily create his own shots. I have been watching almost every single Magic game this season and T-mac CAN create his own shot. Example of this, all the times when he takes the ball from the rebound, pulls up and knocks the 3, hits the jumper/fadeaway, fakes the gaurd out. He can get by defenders easily and if not, he will get fouled and go to the line. Example of this is how he got by the Raptors defenders and did that crazy jam.. He can drive through almost anyone..


----------



## SkywalkerAC

Being the "next MJ" isn't about playing the game in the same way he did or possessing the same attributes, it's about taking the game to another level and rising above the other greats in the game. really, being the next MJ is about being heiled as the GOAT. lebron has his work cut out for him, it's going to be pretty freaking difficult to rise above the likes of tmac and kobe (who are close to "the next MJ" title IMO) whilst they are in their prime.


----------



## MiamiHeat03

> Being the "next MJ" isn't about playing the game in the same way he did or possessing the same attributes, it's about taking the game to another level and rising above the other greats in the game. really, being the next MJ is about being heiled as the GOAT. lebron has his work cut out for him, it's going to be pretty freaking difficult to rise above the likes of tmac and kobe (who are close to "the next MJ" title IMO) whilst they are in their prime.


i agree with skywalker


----------



## Louie

> Great post man but I have to disagree ont he T-mac portion. Tmac can easily create his own shots. I have been watching almost every single Magic game this season and T-mac CAN create his own shot. Example of this, all the times when he takes the ball from the rebound, pulls up and knocks the 3, hits the jumper/fadeaway, fakes the gaurd out. He can get by defenders easily and if not, he will get fouled and go to the line. Example of this is how he got by the Raptors defenders and did that crazy jam.. He can drive through almost anyone..


It isn't that TMac has trouble getting his shots off- he scores 30 a game so you know that that's not true. There's no doubt that TMac has got moves- in fact this is what i said:


> He's got some sick moves, but doesn't seem to have Mike's or Kobe's ability to get a shot (a good shot, that is) whenever he wants.


and then I later said


> he is not, IMO, as good at creating space for a jump shot out of a post-up position as Kobe and MJ are/were.


Neither of these is necessarily a bad thing- TMac is a very team-oriented guy and seems to take his shots within the context of their offense moreso than Kobe does or than MJ did at that age. He does not, however, have the same one-on-one skills/quickness Jordan had, and doesn't have a great turnaround fader the way Kobe does. That's why he seems to have bit more trouble creating quality shots for himself when the offense breaks down and he is forced to go one-on-one, but certainly he's still young and has got alot of time to improve in this area.


----------



## MiamiHeat03

well imagine if he had the one on one skill he would average more than MJ did.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> Being the "next MJ" isn't about playing the game in the same way he did or possessing the same attributes, it's about taking the game to another level and rising above the other greats in the game. really, being the next MJ is about being heiled as the GOAT. lebron has his work cut out for him, it's going to be pretty freaking difficult to rise above the likes of tmac and kobe (who are close to "the next MJ" title IMO) whilst they are in their prime.


so shaq must be making a run for the next mj as well right?


----------



## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> It isn't that TMac has trouble getting his shots off- he scores 30 a game so you know that that's not true. There's no doubt that TMac has got moves- in fact this is what i said:
> 
> and then I later said
> 
> Neither of these is necessarily a bad thing- TMac is a very team-oriented guy and seems to take his shots within the context of their offense moreso than Kobe does or than MJ did at that age. He does not, however, have the same one-on-one skills/quickness Jordan had, and doesn't have a great turnaround fader the way Kobe does. That's why he seems to have bit more trouble creating quality shots for himself when the offense breaks down and he is forced to go one-on-one, but certainly he's still young and has got alot of time to improve in this area.


And you forget to mention that Kobe has Shaq and less pressure than Mcgrady. But all the other points you mentioned are great


----------



## DaBigTicketKG21

Dont' turn this into another T-mac vs Kobe debate. Lebron will make a name for himself, people from High school and Middle school will be thinking "I am going to be the next Lebron." Many people are saying that Lebron will take a fewe years to develop. The thing is that Kobe, KG, and T-mac weren't built and bulked up. That is why Lebron will be averaging 23+ pts per game. The next Lebron is Sebastian Leflair.


----------



## dr-dru

the difference between Jordan, and any of the so called "heirs" is what they've done to the league. Jordan paved the league with his style of play. Right now, kobe, tmac, and lebron. it all seems like there just following the trail that Jordan made.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

> Originally posted by <b>dr-dru</b>!
> the difference between Jordan, and any of the so called "heirs" is what they've done to the league. Jordan paved the league with his style of play. Right now, kobe, tmac, and lebron. it all seems like there just following the trail that Jordan made.


what about dr. j?


----------



## tomonia2020

LeBron is a different player than Jordan, but he has a good shot to have the same impact. Plus, LeBron has the Jordan/Tiger Woods mentality. He played it cool through all of this publicity and manged to come through with big games right after the jerseys and Hummer. He loves being in the spotlight and will learn how to take over in those moments. His talent is not his only special quality, and that's important. That is something that T-mac and Garnett have not shown yet despite their talent.


----------



## Louie

> LeBron is a different player than Jordan, but he has a good shot to have the same impact.


Agreed- my post was really only about _how_ he impacts the game when he's on the court. He doesn't strike me as a go-for-the-throat scorer the way Jordan was, but more as a distributor/orchestrator who can score if needed (like Magic).


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> 
> so shaq must be making a run for the next mj as well right?


meh, i think he's making a run for the next wilt. like it or not, the center position will always be separated from the wings.


----------



## gu1005

*Kobe Or T-mac*

who is better KOBE or T-MAC?

Dont say anything about the rings because Kobe hasnt got a ring without Shaq.


----------



## ltrain99

Wow u just opened up a huge can of worms, u dont wanna bring that up here.:laugh:


----------



## R-Star

Please god no, we were just starting to get over these threads. Look, heres an easy way to sum it up. Sheed said it best, "Both players play hard, both players play hard." Thanks Sheed, well said.


----------



## HAWK23

:no: :|


----------



## Enigma

<center><image src=http://www.creakyjoints.com/graphics/images/desktops/800x600/deadhorse_800x600.jpg></center>


----------



## Tom

i think Kobe has the edge to the slightest degree...depending on how bad his injury is.

But then we are talking peas AND Carrots aren't we.


----------



## agoo

Sounds like we're comparing apples and apples here.


----------



## Tom

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> Sounds like we're comparing apples and apples here.



ORANGE you correct about that one!  :laugh: :rofl:


----------



## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ORANGE you correct about that one!  :laugh: :rofl:


Oh no.. you didnt!!

But it is like comparing the taste of oranges and apples.


----------



## agoo

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> Sounds like we're comparing apples and apples here.


I thought this was fairly self explanitory, but it appears as though I must clear it up. We're comparing apples and apples because apples are the same thing as apples. Dig?


----------



## BEEZ

Sorry guys this has been done. IF you want it re-opened PM me

Clank


----------



## IV

*Kobe is better than Tmac and it has nothing to do with rings, just read each resume*



> Originally posted by <b>gu1005</b>!
> who is better KOBE or T-MAC?
> 
> Dont say anything about the rings because Kobe hasnt got a ring without Shaq.


Shaq doesn't have any rings without Kobe either. 
The funniest thing is Kobe is the one who will actually have a chance to win a ring with Shaq. Should he do so, will your face look like this. 
:jawdrop:
Probably so, then you'll have to find another way to knock him.


----------



## King George

*Michael Jordan jealous of LeBron James?*

Isn't it funny that the story about Jordan buying the Bucks broke on the same day of the NBA Draft? Jordan is such a spotlight hog, can't let the youngster have his moment.


----------



## agoo

*Re: Michael Jordan jealous of LeBron James?*



> Originally posted by <b>King George</b>!
> Isn't it funny that the story about Jordan buying the Bucks broke on the same day of the NBA Draft? Jordan is such a spotlight hog, can't let the youngster have his moment.


Those Jordan rumors were present before the draft. It wasn't exactly new news. Kobe though, coming out with leaving the Lakers about an hour after LeBron was taken, that wasn't right. The draft wasn't even the lead story on SportsCenter.


----------



## King George

*Re: Re: Michael Jordan jealous of LeBron James?*



> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> 
> Those Jordan rumors were present before the draft. It wasn't exactly new news. Kobe though, coming out with leaving the Lakers about an hour after LeBron was taken, that wasn't right. The draft wasn't even the lead story on SportsCenter.


This post was sarcasm but if you want to take that route it was reported months ago Kobe would test the market, was it not? So why the sudden shock now? The press made it more important than LeBron and well to be honest it should be, Kobe is a proven entity and until late Oct. LeBron James will be primarily hype.


----------



## King George

Will Kobe leave the Lakers?
By Chad Ford
NBA Insider
Send an Email to Chad Ford *Monday, April 21*
Updated: April 21
12:03 PM ET 


Distractions. The Lakers seem to thrive on them. 


Over the weekend, the death of Shaquille O'Neal's grandfather and the birth of his new baby led to a plethora of questions over his availability and his focus for the team's series with the Timberwolves.

Shaq's 32 points and 10 rebounds Sunday quickly quieted those comments. But lost in all the Shaq hoopla was a warning shot by Kobe Bryant that could rock the entire franchise.


Will Kobe and Shaq play Michael and Scottie and break-up the Lakers? 
Bryant told the L.A. Daily News on Saturday that he plans on opting out of his contract in 2004. 

The news stunned GM Mitch Kupchak and the rest of the franchise. 

"That's the first I've heard of it," Kupchak said. "I don't know exactly what it means, other than somebody would like to explore options and have options."

While several commentators have tried to soften the blow by claiming Kobe's refusal to sign a contract extension has more to do with financial planning than his relationship with the Lakers, don't believe that for a second.

Kobe stands to gain nothing, financially, from refusing to sign an extension. Yes, the collective bargaining agreement expires after next season, but if you believe the players are going to come out of the new agreement with better terms, you're dreaming.

Kobe isn't opting out so he can build his nest egg. He's restless. He wants to smell the grass on the other side of the Lakers fence. He's grown tired of Phil Jackson's criticisms and playing in Shaq's shadow. 

He's also wary of the Lakers' future. Jackson's contract expires after next season. Shaq has promised to follow Phil out the door. If Kobe locks in now and Phil and Shaq bolt, the Lakers will be terrible. The team has largely foregone rebuilding to keep running at a championship level. Only young players like Kareem Rush and Devean George seem to have any real upside. Kobe wants to win more than anything else. With or without the Lakers.

"It is what it is. I like options, man," Bryant said Saturday. "I like learning things. I like exploring different situations. That's all, really."

Bryant was defensive when asked if he might leave L.A.

"Are you trying to start some (stuff) right now?" he told the Daily News. "I don't know. You never say never. I mean, you never know. Obviously, I want to stay here, I want to play my career out here, but you never know."


Phil Jackson's contract also expires after next season. 
Kupchak seemed resigned to changes.

"We've had such great success with our team and coaching staff, I know it's tough for anybody to think it's going to change," Kupchak said. "But everybody has to do what's right for them."

Is Kobe better off leaving L.A.? Grizzlies president Jerry West thinks so. His plan, since day one, was to clear enough cap space to lure Bryant to Memphis in 2004.

The Grizzlies aren't there yet, but they'll be working hard this summer to get far enough below the cap to sign Kobe. The team has been trying to package Lorenzen Wright and Stromile Swift since last fall. They'll also give away Jason Williams to the highest bidder, and even Shane Battier's available at the right price.

Memphis feels a combination of Kobe, Mike Miller, Pau Gasol and Earl Watson (who West adores) would make it a contender in the Western Conference. 

Of course, the Grizzlies won't be alone in their pursuit of Kobe. The Pistons, Heat (if they don't sign a big free agent this summer), Hornets and Spurs (if they take it easy on free agency this summer) could get far enough under the cap to offer Kobe the max.

But it won't be easy to leave the bright lights of L.A., especially if Phil and Shaq commit to return. Right now, that's still up in the air.

Jackson told the Daily News that how the Lakers play the next several weeks will determine his desire to sign an extension. Shaq still maintains he'll walk if Jackson does.

"Right now, I couldn't see myself playing for anybody else, but we just have to see who that somebody else is," O'Neal said. "If it's like a Chuck Daly or somebody that's the same caliber, then yeah, I'll give it a try. But Phil's my guy."

Now, Jackson, Kobe and O'Neal could be deciding their futures in the same summer. If that doesn't keep Kupchak up at night, nothing will.


----------



## agoo

First I heard of Kobe leaving was during the draft. Guess I missed something somewhere.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

Half of the people in the draft wouldn't be playing the game if it wasn't for Jordan. As far as I'm concered, he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants.


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>ToddMacCulloch11</b>!
> Half of the people in the draft wouldn't be playing the game if it wasn't for Jordan. As far as I'm concered, he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants.


What the hell does this mean? If there was no MJ maybe I would have been good enough to make the NBA. I didn't start liking the NBA because of Michael Jordan. I loved it because I love basketball. 

MJ is not bigger than the game, I don't care what anyone says. He has never been bigger than the game and I will continue to watch and support the league even w/o him.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

I'm not saying there would be no NBA if it wasn't for jordan. I'm just saying that he was the main reason a lot of people probably started playing the game.


----------



## DYNASTY

They started those rumors of jordan making the draft picks.
Kobe is a spotlight hog. He did the same thing during the finals he leaked that he was having surgery on his poor shoulder and that he might miss olympic tryouts.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: Re: Michael Jordan jealous of LeBron James?*



> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> 
> Those Jordan rumors were present before the draft. It wasn't exactly new news. Kobe though, coming out with leaving the Lakers about an hour after LeBron was taken, that wasn't right. The draft wasn't even the lead story on SportsCenter.



AND, the ONLY reason it was mentioned at all is because everyone thought the deal would have been sealed BEFORE the draft in time for MJ to pick the draft. So that is why it came up --- because he was not "officially" in a position to make the call.

Not the same as Kobe at all. Not MJ's style at all.


----------



## agoo

*Re: Re: Re: Michael Jordan jealous of LeBron James?*



> Originally posted by <b>Dynasty Raider</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> AND, the ONLY reason it was mentioned at all is because everyone thought the deal would have been sealed BEFORE the draft in time for MJ to pick the draft. So that is why it came up --- because he was not "officially" in a position to make the call.
> 
> Not the same as Kobe at all. Not MJ's style at all.


I wasn't saying MJ was doing something bad. I'm sure he didn't want those rumors floating about overshadowing what was going on.

Kobe Bryant on the other hand first comes out with the shoulder injury, then that interview where he was talking about his dad during the finals, and now this. That's just not right.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Jordan jealous of LeBron James?*



> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> 
> I wasn't saying MJ was doing something bad. I'm sure he didn't want those rumors floating about overshadowing what was going on.
> 
> Kobe Bryant on the other hand first comes out with the shoulder injury, then that interview where he was talking about his dad during the finals, and now this. That's just not right.


Sorry if that wasn't clear --- I AGREE totally with YOU. Read my several posts on this guy and his ego.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Jordan jealous of LeBron James?*



> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe Bryant on the other hand first comes out with the shoulder injury, then that interview where he was talking about his dad during the finals, and now this. That's just not right.



And, in the end ... he's only hurting himself, by exposing who he really is. He needs help.


----------



## King George

*Re: Re: Re: Michael Jordan jealous of LeBron James?*



> Originally posted by <b>Dynasty Raider</b>!
> 
> Not MJ's style at all.


You're so right. Jordan's style is more along the lines of calling people flaming homosexuals until they are on the verge of tears. Acquiring lackluster talent and inserting himself into the starting and starring role and then belittling the minimal talent for not playing like superstars.


----------



## King George

> Originally posted by <b>DYNASTY</b>!
> He did the same thing during the finals he leaked that he was having surgery on his poor shoulder and that he might miss olympic tryouts.


Oh please! I guess Shaq wanted the spotlight too, when he "leaked" than he signed a personal trainer, huh? Or is Kobe the only so called spotlight hog? Be for real people.


----------



## agoo

> Originally posted by <b>King George</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh please! I guess Shaq wanted the spotlight too, when he "leaked" than he signed a personal trainer, huh? Or is Kobe the only so called spotlight hog? Be for real people.


Shaq hiring a personal trainer is a basketball story. Kobe making up with his dad? Come on now.


----------



## Cam*Ron

Man yall are some straight fools.


----------



## DYNASTY

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Jordan jealous of LeBron James?*



> Originally posted by <b>King George</b>!
> 
> 
> You're so right. Jordan's style is more along the lines of calling people flaming homosexuals until they are on the verge of tears. Acquiring lackluster talent and inserting himself into the starting and starring role and then belittling the minimal talent for not playing like superstars.



The same jordan who offered to be the 6th man?


----------



## bballer22

i think its coz LJ is getting to coky, nameing himsel KING JAMES, and pretending he's best frnd with MJ??!!


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>newmessiah10</b>!
> 
> 
> What the hell does this mean? If there was no MJ maybe I would have been good enough to make the NBA. I didn't start liking the NBA because of Michael Jordan. I loved it because I love basketball.
> 
> MJ is not bigger than the game, I don't care what anyone says. He has never been bigger than the game and I will continue to watch and support the league even w/o him.


Unfortunately, many people believe that MJ IS bigger than the game and that only serves to feed his enormous ego. MJ was an amazing player but he was just a player. He did alot for the game of basketball but the fact is that he was just in the right place at the right time. If Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady were playing in the 80's I think they'd have eternal legacies as well. The NBA was looking for an exciting, dynamic superstar at that time and MJ just happened to be around. The only reason that none of today's wing players will ever be considered as great as Jordan is because he came before them. Even if Kobe goes on to average 30-6-6 for the rest of his career and wins 10 rings he'll never be considered as good as MJ because he wasn't able to change the game and that is unfortunate. Obviously, MJ had astonishing skills and an unrelenting work ethic but much of his legacy was due to luck. I think it's unfair to compare today's players to MJ because it always comes down to the way they revolutionalized the state of the NBA. It's never strictly about stats or even accomplishments. It always comes down to who had a greater effect on the NBA and MJ will ALWAYS win that argument.


----------



## PauloCatarino

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, many people believe that MJ IS bigger than the game and that only serves to feed his enormous ego. MJ was an amazing player but he was just a player. He did alot for the game of basketball but the fact is that he was just in the right place at the right time. If Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady were playing in the 80's I think they'd have eternal legacies as well. The NBA was looking for an exciting, dynamic superstar at that time and MJ just happened to be around. The only reason that none of today's wing players will ever be considered as great as Jordan is because he came before them. Even if Kobe goes on to average 30-6-6 for the rest of his career and wins 10 rings he'll never be considered as good as MJ because he wasn't able to change the game and that is unfortunate. Obviously, MJ had astonishing skills and an unrelenting work ethic but much of his legacy was due to luck. I think it's unfair to compare today's players to MJ because it always comes down to the way they revolutionalized the state of the NBA. It's never strictly about stats or even accomplishments. It always comes down to who had a greater effect on the NBA and MJ will ALWAYS win that argument.


Are you saying MJ changed the game? How did that happen?


----------



## Coyat

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you saying MJ changed the game? How did that happen?


I think Pinball was referring to the popularity uprise of the NBA when Jordan peaked in his game. Jordan brought the NBA fans from all over the world. He became the first player people recognized with the word NBA. 

Actually changing the game honors IMO go to Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. They saved the NBA from being washed up when they entered the league. One doing it by flash and other by fundamentals. The Laker/Celtic rivalry was renewed somewhat by Magic and Bird. Those two should be credited IMO for changing the game.


----------



## PauloCatarino

> Originally posted by <b>Coyat</b>!
> IActually changing the game honors IMO go to Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. They saved the NBA from being washed up when they entered the league. One doing it by flash and other by fundamentals. The Laker/Celtic rivalry was renewed somewhat by Magic and Bird. Those two should be credited IMO for changing the game.


I would say that's correct. 
Let's not overrate Mr. Jordan's influence on the game.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you saying MJ changed the game? How did that happen?


He didn't changed the way the game was played but the way it was marketed. He made it much more exciting and popular than it had ever been. His style really transcended the way basketball was portrayed and he became the game's biggest icon. No matter what today's stars do they will never be what MJ was from a popularity standpoint. Now you've got all this crap like "street cred" and "realness" and there are so many damn factions. I don't think any single player will be able to galvanize an audience like MJ did.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> I would say that's correct.
> Let's not overrate Mr. Jordan's influence on the game.


I agree. MJ influenced the NBA more off th court than on it. On the court I don't think he was that much greater than Chamberlin or Bird or Magic. Too many times I think fans factor in popularity when rating a player. That is why MJ is often considered the best player in the NBA BY FAR.


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree. MJ influenced the NBA more off th court than on it. On the court I don't think he was that much greater than Chamberlin or Bird or Magic. Too many times I think fans factor in popularity when rating a player. That is why MJ is often considered the best player in the NBA BY FAR.


THAT is a thought that hasn't seen enough daylight! I really do believe some fans actually like a player because he might be "popular" instead of liking his game.

Jordan did do something that others did not do - and that was <b>the world-wide marketing </b>of the NBA itself. The Technical stuff needed someone who was big enough to handle the media blitz!

Granted, he only built on what <b>The Globetrotters, Wilt/Russell, Dr. J., & Magic/ Bird did first, taking the NBA overseas. </b>THAT started the world wide fixation and BECAUSE of the technical aspects that were added along with Magic, Larry, and Mike - such as videos, satellite dishes, the www coming along, etc. - Mike might be given extra credit over Larry & Magic.


----------



## King George

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> 
> Shaq hiring a personal trainer is a basketball story. Kobe making up with his dad? Come on now.


Kobe and his father are both B-Ballers that makes it a B-Ball story. It's no more unbasketball related than the press talking about Vince Carter being upset about his brothers crime spree or the death of MJ's dad. You people are hating on Kobe Bryant with no valid reasons. What Larry Brown and the Pistons did was far more dispicable than anything Kobe has ever done, as was the actions of Michael Jordan, but somehow they get overlooked, but if Kobe stubs his toe and it makes the press, it was planned and calculated to keep his name alive, well if his name was "dead" or "dying" no one would care what he had to say ever.


----------



## HallOfFamer

what about jason kidd tellin everybody which 4 teams he narrowed his choices down to? there have been no threads about that. so many kobe haters.


----------



## Philo

Rip on Jordan all you want. It really doesn't matter what you say. Michael Jordan doesn't need to be jealous of LeBron James when he is 500X the basketball player LeBron currently is. Jordan has nothing more to prove, except to lead a team to a title from the GM or owners booth, and even if he never does that, it will be the only thing any of his haters can hold against him, which isn't much.


----------



## PauloCatarino

> Originally posted by <b>Philo</b>!
> Rip on Jordan all you want. It really doesn't matter what you say. Michael Jordan doesn't need to be jealous of LeBron James when he is 500X the basketball player LeBron currently is. Jordan has nothing more to prove, except to lead a team to a title from the GM or owners booth, and even if he never does that, it will be the only thing any of his haters can hold against him, which isn't much.


"Haters"? Why should anyone "hate" MJ?
Let's put it in perspective... Mike was a damn good basketball player. What else is new?
Was he GOD? Nope.
Was he the NBA? Nope.
Was he the most marketed sports figure ever? yes he was.

Criticism shouldn't be compared to pure "hate".


----------



## Kmasonbx

Its amazing the level of hatred for Kobe on this board, and no I'm not a Laker fan nor am I a Kobe fan, I like Allen Iverson and Scottie Pippen. Kobe didn't request these interviews, ESPN asked him if he would do an interview with them, so he did and answered the questions they asked him. The interview just happened to be during the Finals, so is that his fault or ESPN's? The fact the somebody showed the article from April 21st that stated Kobe said he would test the free agent marker, is obviously showing he didn't make his announcement on the day of the draft just to be the lead story. Like I said before Jim Grey probably called him to talk about the draft and eventualy the topic got to what will he do next year, and Kobe said he would test the free agent market, an honest answer. 

MJ and Kidd must be headline hogs also, considering the news of Jordan purchasing the Bucks became big news around draft time, and Jason Kidd announced his 4 team list the same day as the draft. But I guess it's ok for them to do it just not Kobe.


----------



## TruthSeeker

A story leaks on the day of the draft that MJ is buying the bucks and this shows that MJ is jealous of Lebron?
This sounds like some crazy crap only my wife could come up with.
It makes it sound like MJ is some lex luther hatching evil plots to keep himself in the public eye.
I hope he has better things to do with his time than that.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> Its amazing the level of hatred for Kobe on this board, and no I'm not a Laker fan nor am I a Kobe fan, I like Allen Iverson and Scottie Pippen. Kobe didn't request these interviews, ESPN asked him if he would do an interview with them, so he did and answered the questions they asked him. The interview just happened to be during the Finals, so is that his fault or ESPN's? The fact the somebody showed the article from April 21st that stated Kobe said he would test the free agent marker, is obviously showing he didn't make his announcement on the day of the draft just to be the lead story. Like I said before Jim Grey probably called him to talk about the draft and eventualy the topic got to what will he do next year, and Kobe said he would test the free agent market, an honest answer.
> 
> MJ and Kidd must be headline hogs also, considering the news of Jordan purchasing the Bucks became big news around draft time, and Jason Kidd announced his 4 team list the same day as the draft. But I guess it's ok for them to do it just not Kobe.


I guess you don't read others' posts.

Kobe HAD A CHOICE. He could have just as easily said, "I do not wish to comment at this time". "I do not wish to air my family laundry as entertainment for the world". He had an option --- this is not the games, where he is obligated by league rules to comment to the media.

As for MJ and his purchase of the Bucks --- it was a related issue because IF he had purchased the team, then HE would be making the pick; he did not purchase the team, so he didn't make the pick.

Re: Kidd, I don't recall that being a Draft Day topic, but a topic leading into Draft Day.

ALL of these matters have been discussed previously, ON THIS BOARD.

EDIT: BTW, hatred is a very strong emotion, which very few human beings are truly capable of feeling. In fact, only Laker fans tend to use that word. However, if you meant there is a strong dislike or dispise for Kobe, you are probably right.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, many people believe that MJ IS bigger than the game and that only serves to feed his enormous ego. MJ was an amazing player but he was just a player. He did alot for the game of basketball but the fact is that he was just in the right place at the right time. If Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady were playing in the 80's I think they'd have eternal legacies as well. The NBA was looking for an exciting, dynamic superstar at that time and MJ just happened to be around. The only reason that none of today's wing players will ever be considered as great as Jordan is because he came before them. Even if Kobe goes on to average 30-6-6 for the rest of his career and wins 10 rings he'll never be considered as good as MJ because he wasn't able to change the game and that is unfortunate. Obviously, MJ had astonishing skills and an unrelenting work ethic but much of his legacy was due to luck. I think it's unfair to compare today's players to MJ because it always comes down to the way they revolutionalized the state of the NBA. It's never strictly about stats or even accomplishments. It always comes down to who had a greater effect on the NBA and MJ will ALWAYS win that argument.


Without jordan, who knows if there would even be a tmac and kobe. They both were influenced greatly by MJ and a great deal of their moves and their "swagger" comes from the way MJ played.


----------



## Kmasonbx

> Originally posted by <b>Dynasty Raider</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe HAD A CHOICE. He could have just as easily said, "I do not wish to comment at this time". "I do not wish to air my family laundry as entertainment for the world". He had an option --- this is not the games, where he is obligated by league rules to comment to the media.
> 
> 
> Re: Kidd, I don't recall that being a Draft Day topic, but a topic leading into Draft Day.


Well the article on ESPN was published on June 26th, the day of the draft, it was also reported by Jim Gray, maybe it's Gray and not the players? But anyway if it was Allen Iverson making the same announcement people would be talking about what team he might go to rather than him being a spotlight hog. Why would Kobe say I don't want to comment at this time? Just to please the people out there that dislike him? If a reporter asks him a question why should he not answer it. The fact is if it was any other player people wouldn't be calling that player a spotlight hog.


----------



## DYNASTY

how can he be jealous of lebron when he sent some words of encouragement to lebron his adopted protege.


----------



## .

give me a reason why would mj be jealous of lebron ??

because lebron already made more than 100 mil despite played as much nba game as you and me ??

or is it because of all the hype around him ??
that doesnt make much sense right ??

lebron is perhaps the most touted high schooler in the history
of basketball, that doesnt means he will generate this much
of assets throughout his entire career, there are those who generate revenue early on and quickly fade away (penny, g hill etc just ot name a few, hopefully lebron wont follow their path), there are those who came in lesser advertised but quickly explode to the horizon (kobe, t mac etc just to name a few), there are those who never were anything and will never be anything (all non-star nba player) and then there are those who came in highly advertised and went on to generate more and more assets throughout their entire career (MJ is the prime example of that).

so which of these 4 route do you think lebron will follow ?


----------



## Dynasty Raider

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> 
> ... if it was Allen Iverson making the same announcement people ...


The point IS, AI WOULDN'T do that. He has more respect for the GAME and other players. Kobe cannot relate to that ... remember, he's SHY and doesn't associate with anyone and HE comes first, damn the rest.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

> Originally posted by <b>DYNASTY</b>!
> how can he be jealous of lebron when he sent some words of encouragement to lebron his adopted protege.



You know, people REALLY should read the entire thread ... the person starting the thread clearly stated that he was being sarcastic. NO one in their right mind would EVER suggest that MJ was jealous of LeBron, or anyone for that matter.

Geez ...


----------



## agoo

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> 
> Well the article on ESPN was published on June 26th, the day of the draft, it was also reported by Jim Gray, maybe it's Gray and not the players? But anyway if it was Allen Iverson making the same announcement people would be talking about what team he might go to rather than him being a spotlight hog. Why would Kobe say I don't want to comment at this time? Just to please the people out there that dislike him? If a reporter asks him a question why should he not answer it. The fact is if it was any other player people wouldn't be calling that player a spotlight hog.


Jim Gray is definately a moron. Remember when he came out and said that the Kings were prepaired to offer Rick Addleman an extension and concluded the statement with, "But he doesn't even know that yet, so he's hearing it here first like you all are," or something to that effect. What an idiot.


----------



## LionOfJudah

*Re: Kobe is better than Tmac and it has nothing to do with rings, just read each resume*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Shaq doesn't have any rings without Kobe either.
> The funniest thing is Kobe is the one who will actually have a chance to win a ring with Shaq. Should he do so, will your face look like this.
> :jawdrop:
> Probably so, then you'll have to find another way to knock him.


Yeah... like talking about his bad hair cut... a monkey could of done a better job  
Or his legal issues...


----------



## rynobot

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> I understand, but I think he could get 15,5,5 his rookie year and for me that would be amazing.


looks like my perdiction of 15,5,5 was underestimating my bot James.


----------



## tpb2

This is the worst thread I have seen in awhile. James is so mentally tough it's remarkable. You think he always had the NBA body? He didnt. As a sophomore, I watched him and came out saying this kid's awesome but he could get some more muscles. So what does he do? He makes an extensive training program at an elite gym in Ohio and gets the perfect NBA Body. All this kid wants to do is be the best and win titles. The only other people with his mindset are MJ and Tiger Woods. Most people and most media have not really caught onto this yet. And his talents are exceptional. Is jumpshot is underrated if anything, and he's only 18 and still working on it continously. If this kid cant see James' court vision then he's blind. He has the best vision in the entire NBA right now and he's a top five passer (from NBA coaches). He can jump as high as anyone. Once he starts to fit into the league and take charge he will be dunking on people. Plus, I cant tell you how many times I've seen him make some unbelievable move to the basket and hang in the air and finish. I guess there's no use telling the people who know basketball this. Remember when the ESPN people were saying remember Kobe only did this his first year anf T-mac didnt do anything. LeBron James is already the best player on his team! This is some place to start from. Experience and work in the NBA makes a ton of difference. The thread starter does not know much about basketball and I would bet he's mad at LBJ all around game stealing Kobe's spotlight. Is he talking about the pre-season? If that's the case, he should know LBJ is playing much differently and the pre-seaon was just experimental for him. In three years, the starter is going to look silly (although, he'll probably give up bashing and just accept it)


PS: the media didnt hype this kidOne example of how LeBron hyped himself here


----------



## Bad Bartons

*LeBron is the real deal!!!*

I am not the kind to jump on the bandwagon because the media machine and the NBA tell me to. It took me many years to accept MJ as a great (he had to win a title). I still think that Kobe is overrated and is benefiting by playing with Shaq (who I also used to hate).

LeBron James is a better basketball player than any other player that I have ever seen at his age. I wanted to dis the hype but LeBron is proving the hype right. 

Anyone who is not respecting how good this kid is (and yes he is very similar to Magic except he is MUCH more athletic) really is missing the boat. You are hating on LeBron because he takes away from your team's or your favorite player's spotlight.

Many Kobe fans are having a hard season. The Lakers are not champs. Kobe is at least a cheat and maybe a rapist. And LeBron is getting too much attention. Ohhh Pooohhhhh Kobe Fans!


----------



## chiuondis

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> LIKE WHO??? And don't name anyone from LeBron's team because HE makes the whole team better..


ur sayin he makes the whole team better meaning they get WINS?? 

if he was the savior they would be at a sub par 50% .. but the fact is that LeBron is not a winner... not yet at least... he doesn't make his team better.. those sportcasters do kiss his *** .. seems like every little thing he does they praise... if LeBron's game was as sweet as Melo's... the sportscasters would be going crazy.. .. 

the fact is.. he DOESN'T make his team better.. not yet at least


----------



## Kunlun

Stop saying LeBron is 17, hes 18 get it right okay?


----------



## LionOfJudah

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> *Please* do not extend this post that far, it is obvious he just wants to create a stur and get a long post. Now if he was bashing LeBron all along then fine. But it seems to me he just started because everyone else likes him, so to get a reaction out of people he started this post. Just don't let this get over 2 pages...


And we're now on page 3...
Doh!


----------



## Johnny Mac

dont know why this was upped, but notice the date of the original post before going at him with your remarks.


----------



## Priest

> Originally posted by <b>seanpatin</b>!
> LeBron will never be a HOFer.... guaranteed... he may do pretty good but never great....


wow you guys are amazing.....so whats going to happen when the shaqs tmac's paul pierce and kobe bryants of this world get old or retire who is going to step up? LeBron is only going to get better...who else around his age/generation has more talent then him?


----------



## Priest

wait a minute i just realized this thread is almost a year old hahaha who bumped up this thread????? They should be banned:laugh:


----------



## compsciguy78

> Originally posted by <b>Priest</b>!
> wait a minute i just realized this thread is almost a year old hahaha who bumped up this thread????? They should be banned:laugh:


I posted this thread when I watched his high school game on ESPN. I was sick of all the hype at the time. After I watched a few more clips of Lebron I realized he could handle the ball and that his jump shot has good form but its inconsistent. 

This thread is kind of old. I have definitely given Lebron a lot of praise since then,and before he was drafted at #1...why don't you bump one of those threads 

:yes:

Haters are everywhere.


----------



## compsciguy78

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> 
> 
> looks like my perdiction of 15,5,5 was underestimating my bot James.


Why don't you try bumping one of my threads before he got drafted and before the year started to find out what my predictions for Lebron were. I think they were closer than yours if it makes a difference.


----------



## tpb2

I thought your comments were a little harsh for now. I did not see the date either. Well, at least you changed your mind.


----------



## compsciguy78

I love watching LEbron play basketball. Its refreshing to see someone with humility and loads of talent in one package.


----------



## tpb2

Imagine what some experience will do for this kid. I am sure his shot has made improvement so far; think of how good it will be in the future. Plus, he has to hold back a bit because he does not want to take over his team as a rookie.


----------



## Nevus

> Imagine what some experience will do for this kid. I am sure his shot has made improvement so far; think of how good it will be in the future. Plus, he has to hold back a bit because he does not want to take over his team as a rookie.


I agree with all of these statements... it's amazing how quickly his shot has improved. His 3-point % has made a fast incline since his first game, going from around 22% in his first few games to 37.5% right now, which is higher than anyone would have expected for any rookie coming out of High School. He's shot much better than Carmelo Anthony so far, overall, and I don't think anyone would have predicted that.

And I do think he is holding back in order to facilitate the team... I think that in a few years, if not right now, he could be the #1 scoring option and take 20 shots a night, and do very well. I would like to see him take the ball and drive to the hoop more often. But for a rookie on a volatile team, he's doing everything right and it's extremely impressive. 

So far he is everything he was said to be and more, and his work ethic and attitude seem almost too good to be true. I have become a big fan of his already.


----------



## tpb2

watch the Melo comparison you might get attcked; but agreed his shot was a bit underrated and Melo's a bit overrated


----------



## plasticman23

*Re: Lebron James is overhyped and underskilled*



> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> I think he will be a good NBA player but at this point I don't see a star. I would put him on the level of potential all star in the NBA a few years down the road.


16, 6, and 6. He already is a star, and I would be very surprised if he didn't make the all-star team _this_ year.


----------



## plasticman23

Nevermind, disregard that post. I just realized that this is an old thread


----------



## TyGuy

*Re: Lebron James is overhyped and underskilled*



> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> I can't believe people that say Lebron is like Magic. Big deal if he can throw a one handed pass to an open big man under the basket with no one playing defense. The guy is an athlete and a good person, but the comparisons are premature and way off. Everyone on the telecast was kissing his butt. I saw players on that floor that were just as skilled or even more so than Lebron. He is going to be good, but he is no Magic. He has size and athleticism but his jump shot was horrible. It was plain disgusting. He seems like he gets too hyped by hitting an easy jump shot or doing something he should do. The guy is a man among boys out on the court so if he is that good he should be doing anything he wants out there. I think he will be a good NBA player but at this point I don't see a star. I would put him on the level of potential all star in the NBA a few years down the road. Stop the Magic and Air Jordan comparisons. They don't do him or the great ones justice. Lebron is overhyped. I wish they would show people who have good skills instead of people who have hardly any skills and a lot of potential. He could hardly dribble a basketball.
> 
> 
> Peace out


Werent yo uthe same guy that said forget Kobe trade Kobe? I dont understand whats going on with your thoughts :uhoh:

edit: My bad the thread is very old and osme guy bumped it


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>hOnDo</b>!
> how can you guys say all this..the nba is an entirely different game than high school. kobe, tmac, and VC are gonna send this kid cryin back to his mom


I guess not


----------



## BEEZ

*Re: lebron James*



> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> I saw his team lose to a bunch of low talent white boys in the state finals and i didn't see what the pro scouts see. This guy may be the biggest bust of all times. Some of which won't be his fault. He has no way of knowing how hard he needs to work, he has been told he is the greatest thing ever. This might be one of the saddest stories everL; i hope not.


Whoa, terrible assesment TOM


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Four_Season_Hustler</b>!
> He is WAY overhyped..And i think he is gonna be a Darius Miles type in the NBA..Got way to Overhyped his first couple of years and doesnt really become anything good till his 4-5 season in the nba..


I guess all you guys were wrong


----------



## Nevus

Good work BEEZ... I like to read this stuff. Did these people ever watch LeBron play at all before they wrote this? It seems like a lot of people bought into the hype backlash.

I always thought it was obvious watching LeBron that he was a more talented than just about anyone, ever... I didn't know he'd be this poised right away. But some of the things people said... it's really bewildering to me.


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> Good work BEEZ... I like to read this stuff. Did these people ever watch LeBron play at all before they wrote this? It seems like a lot of people bought into the hype backlash.
> 
> I always thought it was obvious watching LeBron that he was a more talented than just about anyone, ever... I didn't know he'd be this poised right away. But some of the things people said... it's really bewildering to me.


no problem. It hough it was just as good a time as any to bring a few threads back up


----------



## GNG

*Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

And here's the proof.

Last night, Kobe Bryant was held to 11 points on 2-16 shooting. His second-lowest point total of the season and by far his worst night from the floor in a long time, good for just 12.5 percent.

His second-lowest shot percentage of the year, you ask? Why, it was on Nov. 10, when he went 4-19 (21%). Against the Memphis Grizzlies.

This means that Kobe Bryant is 6-35 from the floor (17%) against Memphis this season.

You may remember this as the game where not only did Kobe shoot 21 percent (the lowest percentage ever shot in the FedEx Forum -min. 10 shots), but the night where second-year player Dahntay Jones scored a career-high 12 points on 5-7 shooting, playing 24 minutes with Bonzi Wells in foul trouble.

While Jones set a career-high in scoring, his main contribution was keeping Kobe Bryant off his game. With Jones and Shane Battier on him, Kobe seemingly didn't (or just couldn't) stay on his game. He did not attempt a shot in the fourth quarter, and the Lakers lost by 23 points.

Kobe Bryant was not pleased at the end of the game, and in a postgame interview claimed, "It was a tough night for us as a unit. I can go off solo and get 50 or 60 points on these guys, but that doesn't mean we're going to win."

Bold words from a guy that just shot 4-19 against a second-year player on a team that was missing their best defender. 

While Kobe refused to give any credit to his defenders, the national media noticed Jones's effort.



> Dahntay Jones, who scored a career-high 12 points on Wednesday, will likely be called upon to cover Richardson *after helping to limit Los Angeles superstar Kobe Bryant to 20 points on 4-of-19 shooting.*


Link from NBA.com

Kobe is normally known for backing up what he says on the court, but Memphis was very nonplussed at Kobe's arrogance. Kobe didn't go off for 50 or 60 last night in the rematch at the Staples Center. In fact, he barely even got half of what he got at the FedExForum.

Kobe was frustrated by James Posey and Shane Battier all night. Kobe and JP were seen trash talking from the third quarter onward, although Bryant uncharacteristically could not gain the upper hand. Or even hit a shot. With Posey guarding him, Kobe missed his last 10 shots and was 0-6 from downtown.

But Jones once again surprised and may have even one-upped Posey. In the 16 minutes that Jones played and guarded Kobe, Bryant was held _scoreless_. 

Goose egg. Absolutely nothing. Lockdown.

Instead, Kobe, frustrated and unable to get a shot off, was often looking to pass to his very esteemed teammates, such as Chucky Atkins (1-7 FG; 1-4 3PT), Jumaine Jones (2-8 FG; 1-7 3PT) and Brian Cook (2-7 FG; 2-5 3PT). After Jones got a hand on his dribble and poked the ball out of bounds, Kobe pleaded with the official to save him from the defensive wrath of Dahntay.

Dahntay, on the other hand, scored 6 points with Bryant on him.

James Posey also did very well on Kobe, forcing him into many bad shots and holding him without a single field goal in the second half and obviously getting into his head, evidenced by Kobe's begging the officials to call a foul.

This time, Kobe was a bit more humble in his postgame interview:



> Despite the frustration, Bryant was able to credit the Grizzlies' defensive scheme.
> 
> "They played great defensively," Bryant said. "They just sagged into the middle and turned us into an all perimeter team. We were just taking jump shots and they were not falling for us. They just kept me out on the perimeter. And most of my shots were bail-out shots with the clock running down or taking a shot with a hand in my face."


Link from NBA.com

Kobe now recognizes the ferocious D of Dahntay Jones. Now it's time for the rest of the world to take notice.

While Dahntay Jones is not known around the league as an "elite defender," he's certainly had Kobe Bryant's number in not one, but two games this season. Good for him.

<center>







</center>


----------



## HKF

Dahntay was a terrific defender at Duke. He is a good athlete. As much as you despised the pick rawse, he's not a bad basketball player. If he gets traded to New Jersey, he will flourish as the main wingman off the bench for NJ (taking Buford's spot).


----------



## Spriggan

Oh man, rawse, you just jinxed him. Kobe has gone on to torch every defender that's been labeled a Kobe-stopper at one point.

Good job dude.


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> Oh man, rawse, you just jinxed him. Kobe has gone on to torch every defender that's been labeled a Kobe-stopper at one point.
> 
> Good job dude.


But I never used the word Kobe-stopper. That's the key.

Dahntay ain't skurred.


----------



## Kneejoh

so you got a memphis sports writers story, how convincing, obviously he's gonna praise what dhantay did and say anything he can bad about kobe.


----------



## Primetime23

He's overtaken Rueben Patterson as the Kobe-Stopper


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> so you got a memphis sports writers story, how convincing, obviously he's gonna praise what dhantay did and say anything he can bad about kobe.


Doesn't matter where he got the story. The proof is in the pudding.


----------



## Kneejoh

but hes so biased ,and you know that the more specific a stat gets i.e.player A scoring 14 points in 3 different quarters every other game or something like that. the more meaningless it is, he says "You may remember this as the game where not only did Kobe shoot 21 percent (the lowest percentage ever shot in the FedEx Forum -min. 10 shots)" he is twisting the information,the fed ex forum was only built this year that first game was liek the 5th game there. thats waht pisses me of when writers twist the story


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> so you got a memphis sports writers story, how convincing, obviously he's gonna praise what dhantay did and say anything he can bad about kobe.


Actually, I wrote this myself.

Thanks for implying that I'm a paid sports writer, though. That's very promising.


----------



## Kneejoh

im saying whoever wrote it is bad, and since you did that means your are the one twisting the story, and if you wrote it why did your write its an nba link


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, I wrote this myself.
> 
> Thanks for implying that I'm a paid sports writer, though. That's very promising.


You write for NBA.com?


----------



## Tersk

> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> im saying whoever wrote it is bad, and since you did that means your are the one twisting the story, and if you wrote it why did your write its an nba link


To show the quote was a true quote


----------



## hobojoe

Tracy McGrady > Dahntay Jones > Kobe Bryant

Indisputable.


----------



## Kneejoh

u also said kobe gave no recognition to the defense but in the recap on nba.com he said that they played great defense


----------



## Sánchez AF

> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!


Kobe cant lead any team to a championship... He need SHAQ !!!


----------



## Kneejoh

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Tracy McGrady > Dahntay Jones > Kobe Bryant
> 
> Indisputable.


look at their teams records and consider taht t-mac plays with yao

then look at their fingers and their rings

then look at their teams records again

then you will conclude this

KOBE> Mcgra-no "d"-y


----------



## Sánchez AF

> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> then look at their fingers and their rings


One Word Shaq...


----------



## Drewbs

> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> 
> 
> look at their teams records and consider taht t-mac plays with yao
> 
> then look at their fingers and their rings
> 
> then look at their teams records again
> 
> then you will conclude this
> 
> KOBE> Mcgra-no "d"-y


I like Kobe but really... Kobe-Shaq=no championship, also, Shaq-Kobe=no championship, the championship argument is irrelevent. When Yao becomes the dominant force that Shaq is and wins 3 championships with Tmac, then you can start bringing up the rings argument. Other than that, don't even mention it. Also, the Lakers are arguably a better team than the Rockets, granted, neither have shown any consistency in beating any GOOD teams, only the crappy ones. Also, McGrady has been just fine on defense so far this season, offensively, he's still trying to get into a groove within Van Gundy's grind it out system. Lets not forget that prior to this season, Kobe was only a great defender when it suited him.


----------



## HallOfFamer

dammit hobojoe, see what you started? im thinking this will turn into a 200 posts thread on kobe/tmac now.


----------



## Priest

**** DJ that fool gave me stitchies one game cause i crossed him and i pulled up and he came from behind me and hit me wit his elbow...flagrant foul of course(Steinert vs. east brunswick)..also me and him used to be cool but ever since he transferred from RU to duke he thought he was big time and too good for some of the people that was around when he was a bum in basketbll


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>Priest</b>!
> **** DJ that fool gave me stitchies one game cause i crossed him and i pulled up and he came from behind me and hit me wit his elbow...flagrant foul of course(Steinert vs. east brunswick)..also me and him used to be cool but ever since he transferred from RU to duke he thought he was big time and too good for some of the people that was around when he was a bum in basketbll


LOL. Damn holding grudges. It's cool man, sometime people outgrow relationships with others. It's called getting older.


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> im saying whoever wrote it is bad, and since you did that means your are the one twisting the story, and if you wrote it why did your write its an nba link


The quoted portion is taken from recaps from NBA.com. Not hard to figure out.



> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> u also said kobe gave no recognition to the defense but in the recap on nba.com he said that they played great defense


After the Nov. 10 game, Kobe refused to acknowledge Memphis' defense and even told Jones during the game that he "couldn't guard him."

After the Dec. 20 game, he said that Memphis played good defense and didn't offer up macho "50-60 point" claims.

Sorry if the chronological order confused you. :uhoh:


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>Priest</b>!
> **** DJ that fool gave me stitchies one game cause i crossed him and i pulled up and he came from behind me and hit me wit his elbow...flagrant foul of course(Steinert vs. east brunswick)..also me and him used to be cool but ever since he transferred from RU to duke he thought he was big time and too good for some of the people that was around when he was a bum in basketbll


Well, when you get to be as tremendous a basketball player as Dahntay is, you have to cut the dead weight after awhile.


----------



## madskillz1_99

This thread is just a joke right?

Nice one rawse, I guess you got some of the reactions you were looking for.:greatjob:


----------



## mavsman

I did not see the whole game but for what I did see it was James Posey guarding Kobe not Dahntay Jones.


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>mavsman</b>!
> I did not see the whole game but for what I did see it was James Posey guarding Kobe not Dahntay Jones.


I watched the tape again this morning, and Dahntay Jones guarded Kobe for 12-14 minutes during the game (Jones played 16 total).

Posey guarded him most of the first quarter and down the stretch.

And Dahntay scoring 6 points while holding Kobe to zero is simply truth. Jones has now locked Kobe down twice.

Even if Kobe gets his average next game, Jones will still hold the edge, 2-1.


----------



## madskillz1_99

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> I watched the tape again this morning, and Dahntay Jones guarded Kobe for 12-14 minutes during the game (Jones played 16 total).
> 
> Posey guarded him most of the first quarter and down the stretch.
> 
> And Dahntay scoring 6 points while holding Kobe to zero is simply truth. Jones has now locked Kobe down twice.
> 
> Even if Kobe gets his average next game, Jones will still hold the edge, 2-1.


Come on, you're not really serious about all of this are you?


----------



## HKF

He's serious about creating a thinly-veiled bait thread that most of you took. Well played. See how I side-stepped it immediately and praised Jones? That's how you deal with trolls. 

Right rawse?


----------



## madskillz1_99

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> He's serious about creating a thinly-veiled bait thread that most of you took. Well played. See how I side-stepped it immediately and praised Jones? That's how you deal with trolls.
> 
> Right rawse?


Yeah, that's what I thought, I remember him mentioning something about "taking the bait" in another thread too.


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>madskillz1_99</b>!
> 
> 
> Come on, you're not really serious about all of this are you?


I would have laughed it off if it just happened once. It's happened twice now, and the second time was a complete domination.

When was the last time a defender had Kobe's number twice in a row? The media even praised Jones after the Nov. 10 game. Think that wouldn't give Kobe motivation to destroy him in the next matchup? Kobe threatened that he could drop 50 or 60 points on Dahntay after Nov. 10. But last night, he could only score about half of what he scored the first time.

Dahntay has Kobe's number. Kobe was noticeably frustrated by Jones last night, evidenced by his complaining to officials after Jones knocked the ball out of his hands.


----------



## GNG

More evidence.

In two games against Memphis this year, Kobe Bryant has shot 17-22 from the foul line. That's 77 percent.

Down three percent from his season average, and down six percent from his career average.

I wonder what Kobe is thinking about while standing on the free throw line. What could be causing that three-to-six percent differential? What could Kobe be thinking about?


----------



## madskillz1_99

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> More evidence.
> 
> In two games against Memphis this year, Kobe Bryant has shot 17-22 from the foul line. That's 77 percent.
> 
> Down three percent from his season average, and down six percent from his career average.
> 
> I wonder what Kobe is thinking about while standing on the free throw line. What could be causing that three-to-six percent differential? What could Kobe be thinking about?


It must be true, Donny Jones obviously has Kobe's number.


----------



## c_dog

kobe got owned. when you have defenders like posey and battier, you can lock down any superstar sg. throw in bonzi and dahntay and you can lock him down the entire game. i think dahntay certainly deserves some credit, him being a sophmore and all. i think posey did a good job keeping kobe out of the game and dahntay just kicked him while he was down, add insult to injury. nevertheless, and impressive performance from the sophmore.


----------



## Lope31

That's a really good story about Dahntay Jones and I probably wouldn't have noticed if you didn't post it rawse. Props to Dahntay Jones. It does look like he is currently the one that has Kobe's number. Let's see how long that lasts, I wish him the best of luck. Kobe played like crap and its as a result of Jones. 

However, if you ask me, any GM in the league or Santa Claus they will tell you their money is on Kobe Bryant coming away with the upper hand.


----------



## bballlife

Ever think for a second about Kobe's injury? You know the same injury that keeps players like Wally Z out 53 games.


You can't honestly believe Jones can hold him?? Lets wait until Kobe is 100%, then lets see what Jones can do on him. 

And I give the Czar more credit for shutting Kobe down than I do Jones. He was really on top of it last night with that scheme. The entire D was focused on Kobe, stopping penetration, coming quick with the help, swift rotations, they had a nice defensive game as a team. 

Then again, it’s not like Rudy’s offense isn’t the most predictable in the league. 

And your free throw stats point to something being physically wrong as well. (Not mentally like you would like to believe)

If you have watched Kobe regularly throughout his career, you know his mechanics, release, and follow through have all been inconsistent and just plain unusual this season. 

Chill.


----------



## Kneejoh

> Originally posted by <b>SpeakerBoxxX</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe cant lead any team to a championship... He need SHAQ !!!


shaq also needs an all star guard to do any damage, kobe, penny, and now wade


----------



## DwyaneWade4MVP

Shaq + Wade = Championship!!!


----------



## John

What a pathetic thread if u ask me. Here is some scrub played good defense on a superstar once o twice, then some kid with the hge Mephis avatar on claiming left and right that his bench player could play defense on Kobe the best SG in the game today.

If I were the Memphis, win some games first before talking trash.


----------



## Drewbs

> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> 
> 
> shaq also needs an all star guard to do any damage, kobe, penny, and now wade


And wihtout Shaq, Kobe would probably never have gotten as far as he did. Same goes for Shaq.

Memphis has some nice defensive guys at the wings, they did just fine on Kobe, cutting off the lane and making him shoot his jumper (which has looked terribly inconsistent so far this season).


----------



## IV

This thread is a joke. I can't believe you all compliment a guy who plays 16 minutes versus a guy who played the whole game and that makes him the new stopper. Very very funny!


----------



## Ron Mexico

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> What a pathetic thread if u ask me. Here is some scrub played good defense on a superstar once o twice, then some kid with the hge Mephis avatar on claiming left and right that his bench player could play defense on Kobe the best SG in the game today.
> 
> If I were the Memphis, win some games first before talking trash.


 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## John

> Originally posted by <b>sboydell</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Sorry, I hat ethe thread starter so that's why.


----------



## Dre

> Originally posted by <b>basketball_jesus</b>!
> but I would take someone like Darius Miles, or Psquared before I would risk it on him.


Wow. There was a time where Lebron was a "risk", believe it or not.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> Oh man, rawse, you just jinxed him. Kobe has gone on to torch every defender that's been labeled a Kobe-stopper at one point.
> 
> Good job dude.


Patterson was always a chump anyways.


----------



## IV

*Re: Can Kobe Bryant please be his own person...?*



> Originally posted by <b>Chops</b>!
> Now he is giving the Jordan shrug of the shoulders.... :no:
> 
> And please, use your real voice Kobe, please!


When will yall realize you are the one's who constantly compare him to Jordan and won't let him be his own person. :nonono:


----------



## madskillz1_99

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> What a pathetic thread if u ask me. Here is some scrub played good defense on a superstar once o twice, then some kid with the hge Mephis avatar on claiming left and right that his bench player could play defense on Kobe the best SG in the game today.
> 
> If I were the Memphis, win some games first before talking trash.


:laugh: :yes: 

Nice! Mentioning a scrub like Danny Jones in the same breath as Kobe is just ridiculous. :uhoh:


----------



## Kunlun

*Re: Re: Can Kobe Bryant please be his own person...?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> When will yall realize you are the one's who constantly compare him to Jordan and won't let him be his own person. :nonono:


Why was this brought up again? We're just going to have another never ending debate.


----------



## madskillz1_99

> Originally posted by <b>_Dre_</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow. There was a time where Lebron was a "risk", believe it or not.


There was also a time when MJ was a risk, what's your point?


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Tracy McGrady > Dahntay Jones > Kobe Bryant
> 
> Indisputable.


What has McGrady ever done to prove he's better than Jones? Giving him superstar treatment man.


----------



## Dre

> Originally posted by <b>madskillz1_99</b>!
> 
> 
> There was also a time when MJ was a risk, what's your point?


My point is exactly that. It's amazing to think now that the guy on top of the Bball world was thought to be worse than Darius Miles.


----------



## Hoopla

The closest a player entered the NBA draft to being "risk-free" in the past 15 years or so was Shaq.


----------



## The OUTLAW

It would be pretty close to a toss up between Shaq and Duncan.


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> This thread is a joke. I can't believe you all compliment a guy who plays 16 minutes versus a guy who played the whole game and that makes him the new stopper. Very very funny!


Yeah, you're right. James Posey deserves a thread like this, too. And Fratello.

But on the other hand, neither of them actually held Kobe scoreless


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry, I hat ethe thread starter so that's why.


----------



## Sánchez AF

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!


:laugh:


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> Ever think for a second about Kobe's injury? You know the same injury that keeps players like Wally Z out 53 games.
> 
> 
> You can't honestly believe Jones can hold him?? Lets wait until Kobe is 100%, then lets see what Jones can do on him.


"It just hurts, but you suck it up.'' -- Kobe Bryant, about his "left foot injury," revealed as plantar fasciitis.

Link

It's not a question of whether or not I _believe_ Jones can hold Kobe. The numbers don't lie. Dahntay Jones has held Kobe Bryant.

So suck it up, Kobe. No excuses. Posey's not 100 percent either.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> "It just hurts, but you suck it up.'' -- Kobe Bryant, about his "left foot injury," revealed as plantar fasciitis.
> 
> Link
> 
> It's not a question of whether or not I _believe_ Jones can hold Kobe. The numbers don't lie. Dahntay Jones has held Kobe Bryant.
> 
> So suck it up, Kobe. No excuses. Posey's not 100 percent either.


:laugh: Very funny. 16 minutes of good defense and he owns Kobe. :laugh: The numbers certainly don't lie, do they. :whoknows:


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> It would be pretty close to a toss up between Shaq and Duncan.


I'd say Shaq, just because there was a time when some people, myself included, thought Duncan might be too stiff for the NBA game. I loved his game in college and knew he'd be a good player, I just wasn't sure if it would translate into being the legend that he is. But yeah, Duncan is right behind Shaq in terms of no brainers in the past 15 years.


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh: Very funny. 16 minutes of good defense and he owns Kobe. :laugh: The numbers certainly don't lie, do they. :whoknows:


Well, Kobe said that he can go off for 50 on "these guys" whenever he wants, right? That rounds off to a little over a point per minute. Therefore, using Kobe's logic, he should have been able to score 16-17 points on Jones in 16 minutes. He scored zero.

Actually, add 24 minutes to that from the Nov. 10 game. Forty minutes of good defense. That's basically a whole game, isn't it?

Numbers don't lie.


----------



## BigMike

Boy how right was I?


----------



## Plastic Man

> Originally posted by <b>Franco 5</b>!
> Give the guy a break, everyone wants to be like Mike.


[Bad Boys]
Lawrence singing:"I wanna be, I wanna be like Mike. Pow!"
[\Bad Boys]


----------



## GNG

*Re: Re: Can Kobe Bryant please be his own person...?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> When will yall realize you are the one's who constantly compare him to Jordan and won't let him be his own person. :nonono:


I'm guessing that you just don't listen to Steve Kerr very much.

Or you just tune him out, like people should.


----------



## IV

*Re: Re: Re: Can Kobe Bryant please be his own person...?*



> Originally posted by <b>KL Dawger</b>!
> 
> 
> Why was this brought up again? We're just going to have another never ending debate.


Exactly, & I don't plan on taking the bait any longer. If Kobe wants to be like Mike, haters get over it. If Kobe wants to be like Kobe, haters get over that too.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, Kobe said that he can go off for 50 on "these guys" whenever he wants, right? That rounds off to a little over a point per minute. Therefore, using Kobe's logic, he should have been able to score 16-17 points on Jones in 16 minutes. He scored zero.


Since when have you started basing your opinion on Kobe's logic?



> Actually, add 24 minutes to that from the Nov. 10 game. Forty minutes of good defense. That's basically a whole game, isn't it?
> 
> Numbers don't lie.


No that's not basically a whole game, that's 40 minutes between two games. Two games = 48 x 2. You do the math. 

:greatjob:

Look man, you can believe D Jones owns Kobe all you like. It's just not true, you can't credit a player who comes off the bench and plays a few minutes here and there as the answer. It's not that simple. If it were, Jones would play the entire game against LA. Instead the Grizzles did a good job of keeping Kobe's point production down. 

I'm curious, what's taken you so long to start a thread on how T. Prince owns Lebron James. He only scored 11 against Detroit the other night on 4 of 21 from the field... isn't there some ownership involved there??? you're about a week late, what's the deal... where's the consistency?


----------



## R-Star

I dont like Kobe Bryant.


----------



## Mongolmike

I just shake my head in amazement that someone actually remembered this thread, then went back to find it......


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> I dont like Kobe Bryant.


Me neither


----------



## Pinball

Since this thread has already been bumped might as well enjoy it. For anyone that is new and doesn't understand all of the Penny references, John used to be called "Penny Hardaway". No joke, that was his username. He should have never changed it. :laugh:


----------



## R-Star

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Me neither


We can be friends now.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> We can be friends now.


agreed! :cheers:


----------



## BBALLSCIENCES

Haaaa. It doesn't matter what kobe does people will always say he's trying to look like Jordan. I know why, it's because he's the best since Jordan and with 3 rings before the age that Jordan got his first. I'd say he's well on his way to being greater than Jordan. You're petty criticisms are really disguised admiration.


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Since when have you started basing your opinion on Kobe's logic?


I'm not. I'm exposing it.





> No that's not basically a whole game, that's 40 minutes between two games. Two games = 48 x 2. You do the math.


Fine, have it your way. Dahntay Jones has owned Kobe Bryant for two games then.




> :greatjob:
> 
> Look man, you can believe D Jones owns Kobe all you like. It's just not true, you can't credit a player who comes off the bench and plays a few minutes here and there as the answer.


Do you have evidence that Kobe Bryant can score effectively on Dahntay Jones?

Sure it's true. You're just frustrated. Dahntay Jones has been "the answer" for Kobe. Whether or not he comes off the bench is irrelevant. He comes in, he pokes the ball away from Kobe, he gets a hand in Kobe's face, Kobe is forced to take some bad shots, Kobe is reduced to whining to the officials because Dahntay is too good. If that's not "the answer," then that's okay, because what Dahntay has been doing has been effective.

And you're acting like he's playing spot minutes. He has averaged 20 mpg the last two games against the Lakers. That's a good chunk of the game.




> It's not that simple. If it were, Jones would play the entire game against LA. Instead the Grizzles did a good job of keeping Kobe's point production down.


I've given James Posey and Shane Battier plenty of credit in their own efforts to shut down Bryant. Memphis did a fantastic job of clogging the lane and not allowing Kobe to penetrate. Instead, he had to take jump shots. And since he's shooting a worse clip than Allen Iverson this season, I'm satisfied watching him take jumpshots. However, he was only able to _take_ three shots with Dahntay on him.

And Dahntay's not going to play 48 minutes with the kind of depth we have. And when we have guys like Posey equally effective in neutralizing Bryant. C'mon.



> I'm curious, what's taken you so long to start a thread on how T. Prince owns Lebron James. He only scored 11 against Detroit the other night on 4 of 21 from the field... isn't there some ownership involved there??? you're about a week late, what's the deal... where's the consistency?


Well, here's the serious part of the thread.

- First and foremost, I'm a Grizzlies fan. Why should I care what the Pistons are doing?

- LeBron James did not tell one of the Pistons bench players that he could not guard him.

- LeBron James did not go to the media and say he could pop off against "those guys" for 50 or 60 "whenever [he] wanted" after a horrible shooting night from the field.

- LeBron James has _already_ this season put up 40+ points on Detroit.

Kobe Bryant was forced to eat his words by Dahntay Jones.


----------



## R-Star

> Originally posted by <b>BBALLSCIENCES</b>!
> Haaaa. It doesn't matter what kobe does people will always say he's trying to look like Jordan. I know why, it's because he's the best since Jordan and with 3 rings before the age that Jordan got his first. I'd say he's well on his way to being greater than Jordan. You're petty criticisms are really disguised admiration.


Kobes a good player, but to think he'll be remembered as better than Jordan? You must have bumped your head real hard to think that.


----------



## BBALLSCIENCES

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobes a good player, but to think he'll be remembered as better than Jordan? You must have bumped your head real hard to think that.


I said on his way, learn to read buddy. You know it an I know it. It burns doesn't it?


----------



## R-Star

> Originally posted by <b>BBALLSCIENCES</b>!
> 
> 
> I said on his way, learn to read buddy. You know it an I know it. It burns doesn't it?


No, it doesnt burn. Your complete lack of basketball knowledge burns me a little bit inside, but it also makes me laugh. You obviously dont know jack **** about basketball to say Kobes on his way to being better than Jordan.


----------



## BBALLSCIENCES

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> No, it doesnt burn. Your complete lack of basketball knowledge burns me a little bit inside, but it also makes me laugh. You obviously dont know jack **** about basketball to say Kobes on his way to being better than Jordan.


Haaa. It does burn. I see the smoke.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not. I'm exposing it.


so be it



> Fine, have it your way. Dahntay Jones has owned Kobe Bryant for two games then.


believe what you will.



> Do you have evidence that Kobe Bryant can score effectively on Dahntay Jones?


Just as much evidence as you have support the opposite, none. But then again, I'm not debating Kobe can effectively score on Jones. My point: Jones has not owned Kobe. That's not the same thing in contrast.



> Sure it's true. You're just frustrated. Dahntay Jones has been "the answer" for Kobe. Whether or not he comes off the bench is irrelevant. He comes in, he pokes the ball away from Kobe, he gets a hand in Kobe's face, Kobe is forced to take some bad shots, Kobe is reduced to whining to the officials because Dahntay is too good. If that's not "the answer," then that's okay, because what Dahntay has been doing has been effective.


There's no frustration at all, that's just a bailout on your part after starting a senseless thread based on 16 minutes. You're crediting one player from your teams bench, when the team itself should be credited.



> And you're acting like he's playing spot minutes. He has averaged 20 mpg the last two games against the Lakers. That's a good chunk of the game.


Aren't you tired of banging your head against that brick wall. At some point, you'll realize just how ridiculously overstated Jones owns Kobe is. 



> I've given James Posey and Shane Battier plenty of credit in their own efforts to shut down Bryant. Memphis did a fantastic job of clogging the lane and not allowing Kobe to penetrate. Instead, he had to take jump shots. And since he's shooting a worse clip than Allen Iverson this season, I'm satisfied watching him take jumpshots. However, he was only able to _take_ three shots with Dahntay on him.


Right, and that means Jones owns Kobe? When Jones can Jones can guard Kobe for an entire game and effectively shut him down, come talk to me. 



> And Dahntay's not going to play 48 minutes with the kind of depth we have. And when we have guys like Posey equally effective in neutralizing Bryant. C'mon.


In other words the Grizzles effectively shut Kobe down, not the guy who backed up Posey off the bench.



> Well, here's the serious part of the thread.
> 
> - First and foremost, I'm a Grizzlies fan. Why should I care what the Pistons are doing?


You shouldn't, but the same thing happened to Lebron at week ago. Shouldn't there be a Piston's fan somewhere raving about how Prince owns LJ?



> - LeBron James did not tell one of the Pistons bench players that he could not guard him.


Does that make a difference as to whether they guarded him or not. NO.



> - LeBron James did not go to the media and say he could pop off against "those guys" for 50 or 60 "whenever [he] wanted" after a horrible shooting night from the field.


But he was still owned none the less.... owned was the word you chose.



> - LeBron James has _already_ this season put up 40+ points on Detroit.


yeah that was a few days after former 2 time defensive player of the year Ben Wallace was suspended. Seemed like Detroit defensively were a whole nother team when he came back. 40 points vs 11 points.



> Kobe Bryant was forced to eat his words by Dahntay Jones.


Kobe will eat those words when Jones has to match his time on the floor with Kobe's. If I had the advantage of having a player ball hard for a quarter then I come in and do a good job defensively, then go rest while that same player is still in the game and come back and play defense again, you should see a energy advantage. I can't take all the credit for that. Credit should go to the guy who basically wore him down before I got in the game, and the rest of my teammates, along with me getting some credit... not just me.


----------



## madskillz1_99

Why are we even debating this? The numbers are conclusive! Dougie Jones owns Kobe Bryant, I just hope Kobe can redeem himself next time they meet up.


----------



## madskillz1_99

I think Kobe is good.


----------



## R-Star

> Originally posted by <b>BBALLSCIENCES</b>!
> 
> 
> Haaa. It does burn. I see the smoke.


You see the smoke? Your a strange strange guy BBALL.


----------



## IV

smoke? what smoke? somebody smoking? pass that ****!


----------



## R-Star

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> smoke? what smoke? somebody smoking? pass that ****!


Shhh, keep it on the DL man, the mods might be looking.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> Shhh, keep it on the DL man, the mods might be looking.


IV = Kobe. If you don't pass that ****, I'm telling! :upset:


----------



## c_dog

lol, i love this thread. as a grizzly fan it pleases me to see Kobe eat his own words. no kobe, you can't score 50 or 60 on posey, battier, bonzi, not even jones. nice try though.

and i agree that this thread was blown out of proportion. kobe is shooting below 40% this season for the most part so forcing kobe to a bad shooting night is hardly an accomplishment anymore. however you have to agree that even for sub 40% standards it was an abysmal performance. 

anyway, i'm not even taking this thread that seriously. kobe was owned by the whole grizzlies team, not just dahntay, but it's just that much more fun when you say that the "worst" player on the team owned one of the best players in the league.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> IV = Kobe. If you don't pass that ****, I'm telling! :upset:


If you truly are Kobe then maybe R-Star is worried that you won't pass that **** back.


----------



## mavsman

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> 
> anyway, i'm not even taking this thread that seriously. kobe was owned by the whole grizzlies team, not just dahntay, but it's just that much more fun when you say that the "worst" player on the team owned one of the best players in the league.


Ahah, so you admit that Dahntay Jones is the worst player on the team.

So are you ready yet to admit that Josh Howard is the better player?

Sorry to change the subject but I am bored with the whole This guy owned Kobe or that guy owned Kobe.


----------



## Kneejoh

you guys don't know much if you think shutting a guy down for 12 minutes out of a 48 minute game is shutting a guy down completely, evne the memphis grizzlies said it was a team effort, do you actually think that kobe can't take danhtay one on one its the help defenders that are bothering him, 

if i were to guard kobe for 10 minutes and all i had to do was get close up on him and let my teammates help me out i could keep him to a low percentage, 

they are forcing kobe to pass the ball and his teammates werent hitting anything so he forced up some shots as well,

and better defenders have been said to be able to stop kobe and they havent (patterson, bowen, artest, christie, eddie jones, )

and how many shots did kobe actually take when being gaurded by jones?


----------



## bballlife

Jones had nothing to do with Kobe shooting bail outs and other Grizzlies stopping his penetration, blocking his shot. 

Jones did pester him for a few minutes and thats it. The grizz played great TEAM D and Kobe was off. Its not like Jones locked him down.


We shall see what happens next time.


----------



## HKF

rawse, you diabolical genius you. How did you get this thread to (now) it's 60th post? I guess Laker fans really do like debating nonsense, even when you're not serious. 

Is the old rawse coming back? 
:thinking:

Before there was troll, there was rawse. Two points. :greatjob:


----------



## John

> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> you guys don't know much if you think shutting a guy down for 12 minutes out of a 48 minute game is shutting a guy down completely, evne the memphis grizzlies said it was a team effort, do you actually think that kobe can't take danhtay one on one its the help defenders that are bothering him,
> 
> if i were to guard kobe for 10 minutes and all i had to do was get close up on him and let my teammates help me out i could keep him to a low percentage,
> 
> they are forcing kobe to pass the ball and his teammates werent hitting anything so he forced up some shots as well,
> 
> and better defenders have been said to be able to stop kobe and they havent (patterson, bowen, artest, christie, eddie jones, )
> 
> and how many shots did kobe actually take when being gaurded by jones?


May I ask if you could remember things at the age of 5?

Just want to see if you watched Penny in his prime.


----------



## JT

*except ron ron*

at first, bruce bowen got under kobes skin really good. same with doug christie, ruben patterson and all those 1st team all defense guys. once kobe figures out how memphis is playing him defensively, they'll have 30-40 on their heads same as everybody else.


----------



## "Matt!"

> Originally posted by <b>BigMike</b>!
> Boy how right was I?


Wow, 1 blind shot in a million and he happens to remember...


----------



## Kneejoh

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> May I ask if you could remember things at the age of 5?
> 
> Just want to see if you watched Penny in his prime.


whats that supposed to mean?


----------



## PauloCatarino

> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> 
> 
> whats that supposed to mean?


John wants to know if you remember watching Penny Hardaway playing 10 years ago...

You know, he has a fixation in scub-players-who-once-were-elite.


----------



## Kneejoh

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> John wants to know if you remember watching Penny Hardaway playing 10 years ago...
> 
> You know, he has a fixation in scub-players-who-once-were-elite.


no i didn't get into baskebtall until i was 11, ive been watching for 5 years, but ive seen penny play on nbatv from the old magic games


----------



## hobojoe

How about LeBron tonight? Close to his first career triple-double(20-9-9) but gets called from travelling on back-to-back plays and follows up the second one by picking up a tech.


----------



## madskillz1_99

Looks like this thread has finally died down. I'd just like to be the last to give kudos once more to Davie Jones for a great effort in shutting down Kobe.


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>madskillz1_99</b>!
> Looks like this thread has finally died down. I'd just like to be the last to give kudos once more to Davie Jones for a great effort in shutting down Kobe.


C'mon, no matter how many times you try it, you're not going to make "type the wrong name as a form of disrespect" funny.

:no:


----------



## madskillz1_99

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> C'mon, no matter how many times you try it, you're not going to make "type the wrong name as a form of disrespect" funny.
> 
> :no:


I thought it was funny. 

But seriously, scooter Jones is an up and coming player, more power to him. :laugh:


----------



## c_dog

> Originally posted by <b>mavsman</b>!
> 
> 
> Ahah, so you admit that Dahntay Jones is the worst player on the team.
> 
> So are you ready yet to admit that Josh Howard is the better player?
> 
> Sorry to change the subject but I am bored with the whole This guy owned Kobe or that guy owned Kobe.


i don't remember taking on a dahntay vs. josh howard argument.. but what the heck.

now let's not forget that grizzlies is the DEEPEST team in the league, especially at the 2-3 position. being the worst player on the grizzlies is hardly a bad thing.

of course to be completely honest ryan humphrey is probably the worst player, not dahntay, but he played great against the lakers.

dahntay >>> kobe. dahntay owns kobe. when was the last time howard owned kobe? never


----------



## Brian34Cook

Kobe shot pathetic again tonight.. Must be a hangover from Dahntay Jones "owning" Kobe..


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>Brian34Cook</b>!
> Kobe shot pathetic again tonight.. Must be a hangover from Dahntay Jones "owning" Kobe..


You know, getting "Dahntayed" isn't an easy thing to get over. It haunts most players for the remainder of their careers. If I were a Laker fan, I'd hope that Kobe is ready for Christmas.


----------



## Duece Duece

:laugh:  Oh you gotta be kidding me. These grizzlies fans think they got them a Kobe stopper in Dauntey Jones. Please. I'll hardly give the sole credit to Jones for Kobe going 2 for 16 the other night, Kobe just has been struglling with that foot, and with his shot. Kobe would of missed them shots even if he had J-Will in his face sticking him all game, he was shooting *THAT BAD*. Kobe shot 9 for 26 against the Hornets today, so that must mean that David Wesley is a Kobe stopper too, huh. :laugh: You grizzlies fans are gonna get ya feelings hurt just like them Blazer fans. Portland fans thought Ruben was a Kobe stopper, and you see what happens to Ruben everytime Kobe plays portland? He's kobe's beeatch on the regular now.


----------



## Duece Duece

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> You know, getting "Dahntayed" isn't an easy thing to get over. It haunts most players for the remainder of their careers. If I were a Laker fan, I'd hope that Kobe is ready for Christmas.







Hmm, looks like you're riding Dahntey's nuts a little bit too hard, huh. :laugh:  Jones aint that damn good on defense for Kobe to have nightmares about. Especially when he has faced way tougher defenders for whole playoffs series in a Christie, Bowen, and Patterson.


----------



## Lakerman33

this thread shows how silly this board gets sumtimes.


----------



## HKF

Some of you people can't be this dense. This thread was made to get you riled up and you just keep floundering around like fish out of water. It was funny at first, but rawse's just playing with you now. :sigh:


----------



## futuristxen

haha I just read this thread. Rawse played you jive turkeys for fools. I can't believe how slow some of you are out there.

Anyways, Rawse, nice job, as always. Rock on B-Boy.

It should be acknowledged that your thread starting post was amazing stuff. Very well put together. I was really pulled into the epic story of Dahntay Jones vs. Kobe. It was on some good vs. evil ****. Like Lord of the Rings type ****. Ya know.


----------



## Kunlun

Deuce Deuce is taking it seriously.


----------



## Coatesvillain

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> More evidence.
> 
> In two games against Memphis this year, Kobe Bryant has shot 17-22 from the foul line. That's 77 percent.
> 
> Down three percent from his season average, and down six percent from his career average.
> 
> I wonder what Kobe is thinking about while standing on the free throw line. What could be causing that three-to-six percent differential? What could Kobe be thinking about?


I just want to say this is quite possibly the post of the year right here. I think that's the perfect Dahntay Jones picture, every time I read this post I laugh.


----------



## radronOmega

> Here's the proof


NO, you are just using assumptions and opinions based on a players performance on two nights in one year against someone who averages 12.6 minutes per game along with misquoting the player himself in a failed attempt to solidify your “evidence”. 

Quote: 



> Last night, Kobe Bryant was held to 11 points on 2-16 shooting. His second-lowest point total of the season and by far his worst night from the floor in a long time, good for just 12.5 percent.
> Kobe’s just trying to get his teammates to shoot well so he can have backup on Christmas night.
> 
> 
> His second-lowest shot percentage of the year, you ask? Why, it was on Nov. 10, when he went 4-19 (21%). Against the Memphis Grizzlies.
> 
> This means that Kobe Bryant is 6-35 from the floor (17%) against Memphis this season.



Kobe has also shot 16 shots only that game which is 4.5 below his season average. It has also been a trend that in the past three games he has averaged 18 shot attempts per game and bundle the fact that the lakers have player 3 games in four days it doesn’t really help the cause. Oh wait, three games isn’t enough to make a trend you say? But wait, you’re making an assumption that Dahntey can consistently stop Kobe based on only two performances and within which he wasn’t even guarding Kobe half the time. 



> You may remember this as the game where not only did Kobe shoot 21 percent (the lowest percentage ever shot in the FedEx Forum -min. 10 shots), but the night where second-year player Dahntay Jones scored a career-high 12 points on 5-7 shooting, playing 24 minutes with Bonzi Wells in foul trouble.


Whoa, career high 12 points. Really. Whoa. Did I mention Kobe’s career high against Memphis? Anyways what does offense have to do with defense, now you’re just diverting the topic and glorifying Jones EVEN MORE(I don’t know how it’s possible but you find a way) by stat padding. Nice. Really. 




> While Jones set a career-high in scoring, his main contribution was keeping Kobe Bryant off his game. With Jones and Shane Battier on him, Kobe seemingly didn't (or just couldn't) stay on his game. He did not attempt a shot in the fourth quarter, and the Lakers lost by 23 points.


 
They loss by 23 that’s why. Can you tell me how many minutes he played in the fourth quarter? Yah, enough said. 




> Kobe Bryant was not pleased at the end of the game, and in a postgame interview claimed,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "It was a tough night for us as a unit. I can go off solo and get 50 or 60 points on these guys, but that doesn't mean we're going to win."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bold words from a guy that just shot 4-19 against a second-year player on a team that was missing their best defender.
Click to expand...


Notice he didn’t even mention Dahntay. 



> While Kobe refused to give any credit to his defenders, the national media noticed Jones's effort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dahntay Jones, who scored a career-high 12 points on Wednesday, will likely be called upon to cover Richardson after helping to limit Los Angeles superstar Kobe Bryant to 20 points on 4-of-19 shooting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link from NBA.com
Click to expand...

Can you tell me how many minutes he actually GUARDED Kobe? 



> Kobe is normally known for backing up what he says on the court, but Memphis was very nonplussed at Kobe's arrogance. Kobe didn't go off for 50 or 60 last night in the rematch at the Staples Center. In fact, he barely even got half of what he got at the FedExForum.



Arrogance, whoa how objective you are. Really. And stop using the same example over and over again, we get it. Oh WAIT!!! That’s the only example you have to pick from. OUCH. 



> Kobe was frustrated by James Posey and Shane Battier all night. Kobe and JP were seen trash talking from the third quarter onward, although Bryant uncharacteristically could not gain the upper hand. Or even hit a shot. With Posey guarding him, Kobe missed his last 10 shots and was 0-6 from downtown.



Ok so Battier, Posey, and Jones are Kobe stoppers now and have Gary Payton esque trash talking skills because Kobe lost his focus? Eh. Ok…I guess… 



> But Jones once again surprised and may have even one-upped Posey. In the 16 minutes that Jones played and guarded Kobe, Bryant was held scoreless.



WHOAAAAAAAAAAAA 16 MINUTES!!!!!! That’s 4 above his season average!!!! 



> Goose egg. Absolutely nothing. Lockdown.



12.6 minutes. Two games. Nothing. 



> Instead, Kobe, frustrated and unable to get a shot off, was often looking to pass to his very esteemed teammates, such as Chucky Atkins (1-7 FG; 1-4 3PT), Jumaine Jones (2-8 FG; 1-7 3PT) and Brian Cook (2-7 FG; 2-5 3PT). After Jones got a hand on his dribble and poked the ball out of bounds, Kobe pleaded with the official to save him from the defensive wrath of Dahntay.



Plead with the official to save him from the defensive wrath of mr. “I average 12.6 minutes per game?” And his teammates sucked that night, what does that have to do with anything? Oh, wait I know. Jones is such a good defender he covers everyone on the court, WHOAAA. Bruce bowen has nothing on him!!! 



> Dahntay, on the other hand, scored 6 points with Bryant on him.



6. Really. Whoaa. First off, 6 isn’t impressive 56 is. Second of all, Kobe is known for floating around and looking for steals so obviously he doesn’t respect Jones enough to actually guard him lol. 



> James Posey also did very well on Kobe, forcing him into many bad shots and holding him without a single field goal in the second half and obviously getting into his head, evidenced by Kobe's begging the officials to call a foul.



HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO MENTION JAMES POSEY. Getting away from the topic, and we aren’t talking about Posey here, who by the way doesn’t even average double diget points. 




> This time, Kobe was a bit more humble in his postgame interview:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Despite the frustration, Bryant was able to credit the Grizzlies' defensive scheme. "They played great defensively," Bryant said. "They just sagged into the middle and turned us into an all perimeter team. We were just taking jump shots and they were not falling for us. They just kept me out on the perimeter. And most of my shots were bail-out shots with the clock running down or taking a shot with a hand in my face."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link from NBA.com
> 
> 
> Kobe now recognizes the ferocious D of Dahntay Jones
Click to expand...

. 

:laugh: Sorry, I had to interrupt. 




> Now it's time for the rest of the world to take notice.




Once they take notice after his two game MONSTER, I mean MONSTER performance shutting down Kobe, maybe he can average 14.6 minutes per game, eh??? 




> While Dahntay Jones is not known around the league as an "elite defender," he's certainly had Kobe Bryant's number in not one, but two games this season. Good for him.



Good for him. Now you calling him a Kobe stopper? Shame on you. Let’s see him do it in the playoffs, let’s see him do it against other players, and let’s see him do it consistently. Oh wait he doesn’t that’s why he averages 12.6 minutes per game.
:


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>radronOmega</b>!
> 
> 
> NO, you are just using assumptions and opinions based on a players performance on two nights in one year against someone who averages 12.6 minutes per game along with misquoting the player himself in a failed attempt to solidify your “evidence”.


My assumptions and opinions are based on fact. A fact is determined by evidence. And there is a mountain -- a _mountain_ -- of evidence saying that Dahntay Jones locked down Kobe Bryant for nearly 40 minutes over two games. I have been over this overwhelming support several times in this thread. And how do you explain the FT% differential?

Minutes per game are irrelevant. And I did not misquote anyone.



> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last night, Kobe Bryant was held to 11 points on 2-16 shooting. His second-lowest point total of the season and by far his worst night from the floor in a long time, good for just 12.5 percent.
> Kobe’s just trying to get his teammates to shoot well so he can have backup on Christmas night.
> 
> 
> His second-lowest shot percentage of the year, you ask? Why, it was on Nov. 10, when he went 4-19 (21%). Against the Memphis Grizzlies.
> 
> This means that Kobe Bryant is 6-35 from the floor (17%) against Memphis this season.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kobe has also shot 16 shots only that game which is 4.5 below his season average.
Click to expand...

That's because Dahntay stuck a hand in his face and prevented exactly 4.5 shots. Kobe was forced to pass in these situations, when indeed he was looking to shoot. Unfortunately, like I said, he could not elude "Dahngerous Dahntay," who poked his hand in Kobe's dribble and knocked the ball out of bounds once, drawing the ire of Kobe.

Against a mortal, Kobe probably would have been able to take 20 or 21 shots. But let's get real here.



> It has also been a trend that in the past three games he has averaged 18 shot attempts per game and bundle the fact that the lakers have player 3 games in four days it doesn’t really help the cause.


Not long ago, Memphis played 8 games in 12 days. Dahntay played five minutes over that stretch, but you also have to think about warm-up drills. But despite the fatigue, disappointment over lack of playing time, and lack of experience guarding Kobe, Dahntay locked him down pretty well. Three games in four days. Please. Memphis has had four games in five days three different times this year.



> Oh wait, three games isn’t enough to make a trend you say?


No. Twice is a trend. As in, "Dahntay Jones has owned Kobe Bryant _twice_."



> But wait, you’re making an assumption that Dahntey can consistently stop Kobe based on only two performances and within which he wasn’t even guarding Kobe half the time.


He guards Kobe almost the entire time he's on the floor. And he has consistently stopped Bryant throughout his entire career. You can downplay it if you want, but you can't deny it.




> Whoa, career high 12 points. Really. Whoa. Did I mention Kobe’s career high against Memphis? Anyways what does offense have to do with defense, now you’re just diverting the topic and glorifying Jones EVEN MORE(I don’t know how it’s possible but you find a way) by stat padding. Nice. Really.


Kobe scored his career high on Rodney Buford and a rookie Shane Battier. Not Dahntay Jones. And not James Posey either. And really, not Battier either anymore. Kobe has averaged just 15.5 ppg against tandems of Battier/Jones and Posey/Jones this year.

As far as Dahntay's offense goes, this thread goes to show that Dahntay scored more on Kobe than Kobe scored on him. Yet Kobe's the one that made the claim that Jones couldn't guard him. I find that interesting.



> They loss by 23 that’s why. Can you tell me how many minutes he played in the fourth quarter? Yah, enough said.


Zero, of course. Why would Kobe play in the fourth with the Lakers losing by 20+? That's just _stupid_, radronOmega. But I stand by my statement that Kobe took no shots in the fourth.

He left after the end of the third. Here's the last 1:44 of the play-by-play. Notice the bold parts. I'll also bold the portions where Kobe abuses Jones, for fairness' sake. 

*(1:44) [LAL] Bryant Running Jump: Missed Block: Jones (1 BLK)*
(1:44) [LAL] Odom Rebound (Off:3 Def:8)
(1:44) [MEM] Swift Foul: Personal (2 PF)
(1:44) [LAL] Odom Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(1:44) [LAL] Team Rebound
(1:44) [MEM] Miller Substitution replaced by Battier
(1:44) [LAL 65-81] Odom Free Throw 2 of 2 (14 PTS)
*(1:25) [MEM 83-65] Jones Driving Layup: Made (6 PTS)*
(1:07) [LAL] Atkins Turnover: Bad Pass (2 TO) Steal: Watson (1 ST)
(1:03) [MEM 85-65] Swift Layup Shot: Made (5 PTS) Assist: Watson (3 AST)
*(0:44) [LAL] Bryant Jump Shot: Missed*
(0:42) [MEM] Cardinal Rebound (Off:1 Def:3)
(0:33) [MEM 88-65] Battier Jump Shot: Made (12 PTS) Assist: Watson (4 AST)
(0:19) [MEM] Watson Foul: Personal (2 PF)
(0:19) [LAL 66-88] Atkins Free Throw 1 of 2 (1 PTS)
(0:19) [LAL 67-88] Atkins Free Throw 2 of 2 (2 PTS)
(0:02) [LAL] Odom Foul: Shooting (4 PF)
(0:02) [MEM 89-67] Swift Free Throw 1 of 2 (6 PTS)
(0:02) [MEM 90-67] Swift Free Throw 2 of 2 (7 PTS)
(0:00) [LAL] Butler Jump Shot: Missed
(0:00) End Period
(0:00) [LAL] Team Rebound


Dahntay - 3; Kobe - 0



> Bold words from a guy that just shot 4-19 against a second-year player on a team that was missing their best defender.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice he didn’t even mention Dahntay.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I wouldn't want to make Dahntay mad either.



> Can you tell me how many minutes he actually GUARDED Kobe?


I'm not going to do that extensive amount of work. I've watched both games. The Dec. 20 game, I have watched twice. Any time that both Kobe and Dahntay are in the game, Dahntay is guarding Kobe.



> Arrogance, whoa how objective you are. Really. And stop using the same example over and over again, we get it. Oh WAIT!!! That’s the only example you have to pick from. OUCH.


It's called driving home a point. Like I said, there is a mountain of evidence, and therefore facts, on my side. I mean, come on, look at how long that first post is. Evidence flyin' all over the place.



> Ok so Battier, Posey, and Jones are Kobe stoppers now and have Gary Payton esque trash talking skills because Kobe lost his focus? Eh. Ok…I guess…


James Posey has been known to frustrate many players in the league. He jaws with opponents regularly.



> WHOAAAAAAAAAAAA 16 MINUTES!!!!!! That’s 4 above his season average!!!!


Because he was _on...fire_!



> 12.6 minutes. Two games. Nothing.


"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Two times of sheer domination indicates a trend.



> Plead with the official to save him from the defensive wrath of mr. “I average 12.6 minutes per game?” And his teammates sucked that night, what does that have to do with anything? Oh, wait I know. Jones is such a good defender he covers everyone on the court, WHOAAA. Bruce bowen has nothing on him!!!


Dahntay was not only forcing Kobe to pass it off, he was also preventing Kobe from setting up his teammates for good looks. Excellent, savvy defensive work from Jones.

And Bruce Bowen sucks...c'mon. We aren't talking about scrubs in this thread.



> 6. Really. Whoaa. First off, 6 isn’t impressive 56 is. Second of all, Kobe is known for floating around and looking for steals so obviously he doesn’t respect Jones enough to actually guard him lol.


Actually, Kobe wasn't guarding anyone other than Dahntay, but he didn't make it a point to get all over him. On his two field goals, Kobe stayed back and dared him to shoot. He did, and it was money. That's Kobe's fault for giving up points.

And for all Kobe's "floating around," he only has two steals against Memphis this year. Not all that impressive.



> HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO MENTION JAMES POSEY. Getting away from the topic, and we aren’t talking about Posey here, who by the way doesn’t even average double diget points.


Posey has been injured. Recovering from a foot problem.




> Once they take notice after his two game MONSTER, I mean MONSTER performance shutting down Kobe, maybe he can average 14.6 minutes per game, eh???


Well, let's not rush him. I'm content to just stick him on Kobe when we need him to.

Kobe needs the lessons anyway.



> Good for him. Now you calling him a Kobe stopper? Shame on you. Let’s see him do it in the playoffs, let’s see him do it against other players, and let’s see him do it consistently. Oh wait he doesn’t that’s why he averages 12.6 minutes per game.
> :


Nah, for some reason, Kobe's the easiest player in the league for Dahntay to guard. Once he practices on Kobe, he'll develop enough to be able to guard more elite and versatile players.


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> Just as much evidence as you have support the opposite, none. But then again, I'm not debating Kobe can effectively score on Jones. My point: Jones has not owned Kobe. That's not the same thing in contrast.
> 
> There's no frustration at all, that's just a bailout on your part after starting a senseless thread based on 16 minutes. You're crediting one player from your teams bench, when the team itself should be credited.
> 
> Aren't you tired of banging your head against that brick wall. At some point, you'll realize just how ridiculously overstated Jones owns Kobe is.
> 
> Right, and that means Jones owns Kobe? When Jones can Jones can guard Kobe for an entire game and effectively shut him down, come talk to me.
> 
> In other words the Grizzles effectively shut Kobe down, not the guy who backed up Posey off the bench.
> 
> You shouldn't, but the same thing happened to Lebron at week ago. Shouldn't there be a Piston's fan somewhere raving about how Prince owns LJ?
> 
> Does that make a difference as to whether they guarded him or not. NO.
> 
> But he was still owned none the less.... owned was the word you chose.
> 
> yeah that was a few days after former 2 time defensive player of the year Ben Wallace was suspended. Seemed like Detroit defensively were a whole nother team when he came back. 40 points vs 11 points.
> 
> Kobe will eat those words when Jones has to match his time on the floor with Kobe's. If I had the advantage of having a player ball hard for a quarter then I come in and do a good job defensively, then go rest while that same player is still in the game and come back and play defense again, you should see a energy advantage. I can't take all the credit for that. Credit should go to the guy who basically wore him down before I got in the game, and the rest of my teammates, along with me getting some credit... not just me.



Kobe Bryant has played Memphis twice. One at Memphis and one at home. He averages 15.5 ppg on 17% shooting this year against the Grizz. In two games, Dahntay Jones has guarded Kobe Bryant a total of 40 minutes.

Another elite SG, Ray Allen, has played the Grizzlies twice. Just like Kobe. One in Memphis and one at home. Like Kobe. Ray Allen averages 27 ppg against Memphis on 45% shooting this year against the Grizz. In two games, Dahntay Jones has guarded Ray Allen a total of 25 minutes.

You'll notice that with this comparison, as Dahntay's minutes increase, the elite SG's ppg and FG% takes a very steep drop. Think about it. _Think_.


----------



## madskillz1_99

The posts in this thread have gotten WAY too long, if you think I have the attention span to read through all of that, you are sorely mistaken!


----------



## el_Diablo

rawse rules...

:laugh:


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>madskillz1_99</b>!
> The posts in this thread have gotten WAY too long, if you think I have the attention span to read through all of that, you are sorely mistaken!


Oh, it's not as if you _really_ need to read all these posts to see that Dahntay owns Kobe.

All you really need is a box score and some game tape. :yes:


----------



## madskillz1_99

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh, it's not as if you _really_ need to read all these posts to see that Dahntay owns Kobe.
> 
> All you really need is a box score and some game tape. :yes:


hey, I admitted it a long time ago. Johnny Jones has got Kobe's number, I don't dispute it.


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>madskillz1_99</b>!
> 
> 
> hey, I admitted it a long time ago. Johnny Jones has got Kobe's number, I don't dispute it.


C'mon. Give it up. No one thinks it's funny, the whole "_____ Jones" bit.

If you're going to call him anything, call him by his nickname. Dahngerous.


----------



## madskillz1_99

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> C'mon. Give it up. No one thinks it's funny, the whole "_____ Jones" bit.
> 
> If you're going to call him anything, call him by his nickname. Dahngerous.


If I keep doing it enough it will become funny! 

Donnel Jones is a scrub, and I can't be bothered to remember scrubs' first names.


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>madskillz1_99</b>!
> 
> 
> If I keep doing it enough it will become funny!
> 
> Donnel Jones is a scrub, and I can't be bothered to remember scrubs' first names.


Nah, Kobe couldn't have been owned by a scrub. Dahntay is really a great, great player. And probably a nice guy to boot.


----------



## R-Star

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> If you truly are Kobe then maybe R-Star is worried that you won't pass that **** back.


:laugh:


----------



## Lakerman33

this thread is too dumb...


----------



## magic_bryant

I used to think that Kobe TRIED to be like MJ. He sounded and acted and played WAY TOO MUCH like MJ to NOT be trying to be him. But the conclusion I've come up with is that it's impossible for him to actually be just pretending to be like MJ. 

IS it not possible that Kobe just happens to ACTUALLY be VERY MJ like. I mean, I can see how he could possibly act like him with his talk or his mannerisms. But there's simply no way he is just ACTING like MJ on the court. He does way too good a job for him to just be acting like him. That's his game and it just so happens to be MJ's as well. 

And let's just go ahead and say this...If Kobe IS just ACTING like MJ with his play and whatnot, then he IS the GREAT PLAYER EVER. Cause if he in fact DOES have a game all his own, but choooses to just mess around as if he's at the local YMCA and can STILL be one of the top 5, then he truely is the GREATEST EVER.


----------



## madskillz1_99

> Originally posted by <b>magic_bryant</b>!
> 
> 
> IS it not possible that Kobe just happens to ACTUALLY be VERY MJ like.


 What a revelation.
I agree.


----------



## John

> Originally posted by <b>Franco 5</b>!
> Give the guy a break, everyone wants to be like Mike. Even Lil Bow Wow!


lol, U promised to look after the Magic forum for me, never happened.

LMAO!


----------



## BallStateCards

That ***! Kobe even plays the same sport as Jordan. Damn, he needs to get a life!














The sad thing is, that is an acceptable argument for a lot of people on the this board...


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Yeah, I'm going to have to bump this..

Dahntay Jones 3
Kobe Bryant 0


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



rawse said:


> Yeah, I'm going to have to bump this..
> 
> Dahntay Jones 3
> Kobe Bryant 0


Are you talking about titles? No, it's Kobe: 3, Jones: 0. Ohhh...you're talking about wins this season. Hmmmm...then you just as well might say, "Antonio Burks: 3, Kobe Bryant: 0".

How did Jones own Kobe? Kobe had 9 points and 3 rebounds on 4-8 shooting in 14 minutes before he had to sit out the rest of the game with a leg injury. So basically, what I'm trying to say is that it was stupid to bump this. The Grizzlies beat the Lakers. Dahntay Jones didn't beat Kobe Bryant. Let's wait until Jones can crack the starting lineup and get more than 20mpg before we start attributing Memphis' wins to his play. 

Go jump with joy over Memphis' win in the Grizzlies Forum, don't add fuel to the "Kobe-hating" fire in here, unless you want people to associate you with Nique21 and duncan2k5.


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Kobe Bryant owns the whole league. 

Will be the same for couple more years. 

GO KOBE!!!


----------



## Brian34Cook

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Jones owned Kobe again tonight.. Kobe faked his injury.. Kobe sucks!!!


----------



## Burn

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Kobe had to go to the burn unit after gettin torched by Dahntay Inferno tonight. Get better soon Kobe! :banana:


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Burn said:


> Kobe had to go to the burn unit after gettin torched by Dahntay Inferno tonight. Get better soon Kobe! :banana:


Yeah, Dahntay's 2 points while Kobe was in the game just tore him up good!!!!!!!!


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Damian Necronamous said:


> Are you talking about titles? No, it's Kobe: 3, Jones: 0. Ohhh...you're talking about wins this season. Hmmmm...then you just as well might say, "Antonio Burks: 3, Kobe Bryant: 0".
> 
> How did Jones own Kobe? Kobe had 9 points and 3 rebounds on 4-8 shooting in 14 minutes before he had to sit out the rest of the game with a leg injury. So basically, what I'm trying to say is that it was stupid to bump this. The Grizzlies beat the Lakers. Dahntay Jones didn't beat Kobe Bryant. Let's wait until Jones can crack the starting lineup and get more than 20mpg before we start attributing Memphis' wins to his play.
> 
> Go jump with joy over Memphis' win in the Grizzlies Forum, don't add fuel to the "Kobe-hating" fire in here, unless you want people to associate you with Nique21 and duncan2k5.


At 14 minutes each, here were the stats.

Kobe Bryant: 4-8 FG 3 rebounds 1 turnover 9 points
Dahntay Jones: 4-5 FG 2 rebounds *3 blocks* 10 points

Yup.

I think the most telling story tonight, however, was Kobe retreating out of the FedExForum when he realized Dahntay just got activated off the IR.

Intimidation should be a statistic.


----------



## shobe42

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Primetime23 said:


> He's overtaken Rueben Patterson as the Kobe-Stopper


i always knew ruben patterson as the "kobe-stat-padder"... the only thing he stopped was his embarrasement when he stopped saying he was the "kobe-stopper"


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Burn said:


> Dahntay Inferno


You're brilliant. I <3 you.


----------



## madskillz1_99

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

I admit it, Davey Jones regulated Kobe tonight, Kudos to him! :cheers:


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

This is the greatest bait thread of all time


----------



## Hollywood14

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

rawse, why do you say 11 points?, on NBA.com it says Kobe only scored 9 points.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



rawse said:


> At 14 minutes each, here were the stats.
> 
> Kobe Bryant: 4-8 FG 3 rebounds 1 turnover 9 points
> Dahntay Jones: 4-5 FG 2 rebounds *3 blocks* 10 points
> 
> Yup.
> 
> I think the most telling story tonight, however, was Kobe retreating out of the FedExForum when he realized Dahntay just got activated off the IR.
> 
> Intimidation should be a statistic.


Were those 3 blocks on Kobe? No. Wow, you're argument sucks big fat balls, especially since it was mainly Battier who was guarding Bryant. Congratulations. Kobe didn't get one shot blocked tonight.

And I'm questioning those stats. Where did you get them?


----------



## madskillz1_99

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Damian Necronamous said:


> Were those 3 blocks on Kobe? No. Wow, you're argument sucks big fat balls, especially since it was mainly Battier who was guarding Bryant. Congratulations. Kobe didn't get one shot blocked tonight.
> 
> And I'm questioning those stats. Where did you get them?


Dude, don't take the bait. Rawse knows full well that Donny Jones is a scrub.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



madskillz1_99 said:


> Dude, don't take the bait. Rawse knows full well that Donny Jones is a scrub.


I want to know when he's going to get his posts edited, closed or something for crap like this.


----------



## Debt Collector

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

lol... come on guys, lighten up a bit. i didnt watch the game but when i heard kobe got hurt i immediately thought of this thread. :laugh:


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Damian Necronamous said:


> I want to know when he's going to get his posts edited, closed or something for crap like this.


Probably not before you get editted for calling people morons, idiots or saying their arguments "suck big balls."

You're completely incapable of handling other people without resorting to preteen insults. Please conduct yourself properly.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Damian Necronamous said:


> Were those 3 blocks on Kobe? No. Wow, you're argument sucks big fat balls, especially since it was mainly Battier who was guarding Bryant. Congratulations. Kobe didn't get one shot blocked tonight.


Whether or not the three blocks were on Kobe Bryant, Dahntay Jones had a better game tonight. Period.

The three blocks came around the rim, twice on Jumaine Jones and one on Tierre Brown. Two of those blocks came on fast breaks. Give the kid his due - he's proven all year he's developing into a really good defender on and off the ball.

Dahntay came into the game for the first time with 1:04 remaining in the first, and there was an important instance when Dahntay _was_ matched up with Kobe. The last play of the first quarter. Kobe was dribbling around and couldn't get past Jones. In fact, the buzzer sounded long before Kobe could even get a shot off.

If you watched this on TV, I'm sure you'd know this.



> And I'm questioning those stats. Where did you get them?


Followed the live play-by-play on NBA.com. After the second quarter, both players had played 14 minutes, and I compared the stats.

If you go back and sift through the play-by-play, you'll see I'm 100 percent correct.



madskillz1_99 said:


> Dude, don't take the bait. Rawse knows full well that Donny Jones is a scrub.


Man, you must have some really high standards.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Damian Necronamous said:


> I want to know when he's going to get his posts edited, closed or something for crap like this.


You know, if I was just up here blowing smoke, it'd be one thing, but there isn't a single instance this season where someone can say, "Wow, Kobe really owned Dahntay Jones." He's really become a nice contributor this year, and his (continued) success against Kobe has been the biggest symbol of that.

Would it be better if I made threads like:

Memphis Grizzlies have owned Kobe Bryant this season
Memphis Grizzlies have owned the Lakers this season
Dahntay Jones owns Jumaine Jones
Pau Gasol owns Brian Grant

I'm sure I could find some relevent stats for each of those. 

(And of course, as Whodinee said, lighten up. You don't seem to have a problem bringing up how bad your team is, Damian. Why do you have such a problem when other people do, even as a running gag? 

Don't worry - you don't have to play Memphis anymore, and Dahntay can't own Kobe until next season. So once this falls off the front page, you won't be seeing it again...until next season.)


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Rawse is teh God.


----------



## LakerLunatic

*No One Owns Kobe Bryant!*

DAHANTY JONES OWNS KOBE BRYANT, THATS HILARIOUS, NO ONE OWNS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE.... DARE I SAY, ONE OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN N.B.A HISTORY, OOO I AM A SIN IN THE EYES OF THOSE WHO TURNED THERE BACKS TO KOBE IN HIS HOUR OF NEED. FOR ALL THOSE WHO HATE, FOR ALL THOSE WHO BETRAYED, YOUR TIME IS COMING, AND SOON, THE LAKERS WILL REIGN SUPREME ONCE AGAIN!!!!!!!!



MARK MY WORDS


:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: WORSHIP THE GODS, AKA THE LAKER FANS!


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: No One Owns Kobe Bryant!*

The Kobe threads need to stop, for real. It's more ridiculous than I remember it ever being.


----------



## ATLien

*Re: No One Owns Kobe Bryant!*

Who is this Kobe creature you speak of?


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: No One Owns Kobe Bryant!*



Sir Patchwork said:


> The Kobe threads need to stop, for real. It's more ridiculous than I remember it ever being.


Seriously. Just shut up everybody.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



rawse said:


> Whether or not the three blocks were on Kobe Bryant, Dahntay Jones had a better game tonight. Period.


Ummm...that was a full game? Kobe only played 14 minutes, that's a third of a game to him. Oh that's right, 14 minutes is usually twice what Jones gets to play. So every time someone plays better than Kobe in a span of 14 minutes, we make a thread about it? Yeah, that's smart.  

*edited: Stay civil*


Also, how can you say his "continued success against Kobe"? He played the majority of his minutes while Kobe *wasn't even in the game*. That's why I'm saying your whole argument is straight up *edited*. It makes no sense.


----------



## Cap

*Re: No One Owns Kobe Bryant!*


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



rawse said:


> Dahntay came into the game for the first time with 1:04 remaining in the first, and there was an important instance when Dahntay _was_ matched up with Kobe. The last play of the first quarter. Kobe was dribbling around and couldn't get past Jones. In fact, the buzzer sounded long before Kobe could even get a shot off.


You just proved what I've been saying. It was only one play. The fact that you are even still arguing this is unbelieveable. 

"Dahntay Jones owned Kobe Bryant!" 

"Really?"

"Well, it was only one play, but still!"


----------



## DwyaneWade4MVP

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Dahntay Jones > Kobe Bryant!


----------



## GNG

*Re: No One Owns Kobe Bryant!*



LakerLunatic said:


> DAHANTY JONES OWNS KOBE BRYANT, THATS HILARIOUS, NO ONE OWNS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE.... DARE I SAY, ONE OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN N.B.A HISTORY, OOO I AM A SIN IN THE EYES OF THOSE WHO TURNED THERE BACKS TO KOBE IN HIS HOUR OF NEED. FOR ALL THOSE WHO HATE, FOR ALL THOSE WHO BETRAYED, YOUR TIME IS COMING, AND SOON, THE LAKERS WILL REIGN SUPREME ONCE AGAIN!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> MARK MY WORDS
> 
> 
> :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: WORSHIP THE GODS, AKA THE LAKER FANS!












Look into the face of fear.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Damian Necronamous said:


> Ummm...that was a full game? Kobe only played 14 minutes, that's a third of a game to him. Oh that's right, 14 minutes is usually twice what Jones gets to play. So every time someone plays better than Kobe in a span of 14 minutes, we make a thread about it? Yeah, that's smart.


Fourteen minutes was a whole game for Kobe last night. Kobe played one game. Dahntay played one game. Dahntay had a better game. 

Their mpg stat isn't important to this thread at all. 

And I haven't been making multiple threads. Direct that vitriol toward someone who deserves it.



> *edited: Stay civil*
> 
> 
> Also, how can you say his "continued success against Kobe"? He played the majority of his minutes while Kobe *wasn't even in the game*. That's why I'm saying your whole argument is straight up *edited*. It makes no sense.


He has played enough possessions that it's strange how Kobe can't ever put the ball in the hole against him. Last night was just one possession in a series of dozens of possessions of futility for Kobe against Dahntay. Isn't Kobe supposed to be amazing with the clock running down? He couldn't even get a shot off on Jones. Nyah.

And I've already explained that Dahntay had a better _game_, while still locking Kobe down for the time he was on him. Once again, Kobe didn't score with Jones guarding him. I realize Kobe was terrified and didn't choose to play in the last three quarters, but that isn't Jones' fault...directly. It's still listed as one game.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: No One Owns Kobe Bryant!*



LakerLunatic said:


> DAHANTY JONES OWNS KOBE BRYANT, THATS HILARIOUS, NO ONE OWNS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE.... DARE I SAY, ONE OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN N.B.A HISTORY, OOO I AM A SIN IN THE EYES OF THOSE WHO TURNED THERE BACKS TO KOBE IN HIS HOUR OF NEED. FOR ALL THOSE WHO HATE, FOR ALL THOSE WHO BETRAYED, YOUR TIME IS COMING, AND SOON, THE LAKERS WILL REIGN SUPREME ONCE AGAIN!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> MARK MY WORDS
> 
> 
> :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: WORSHIP THE GODS, AKA THE LAKER FANS!



Shut the **** up you crazy *******.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: No One Owns Kobe Bryant!*



Damian Necronamous said:


> Seriously. Just shut up everybody.


You start.


----------



## madskillz1_99

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Damian Necronamous said:


> You just proved what I've been saying. It was only one play. The fact that you are even still arguing this is unbelieveable.
> 
> "Dahntay Jones owned Kobe Bryant!"
> 
> "Really?"
> 
> "Well, it was only one play, but still!"



What did I tell you!!? STOP taking the bait! Everyone here knows that Timmy Jones is garbage, no one even thinks he is anywhere near Kobe, so just stop.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



madskillz1_99 said:


> What did I tell you!!? STOP taking the bait! Everyone here knows that Timmy Jones is garbage, no one even thinks he is anywhere near Kobe, so just stop.


 What's funny is you still keep posting on this thread and are still trying to make you're Dahntay Jones joke work. Posting the same joke over and over ain't gonna make it funny


----------



## Tooeasy

*Re: No One Owns Kobe Bryant!*



rawse said:


> Look into the face of fear.


wow, those are some comfy looking grizz seats in the background, the jealousy is kicking in as i type this.


----------



## madskillz1_99

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Pioneer10 said:


> What's funny is you still keep posting on this thread and are still trying to make you're Dahntay Jones joke work. Posting the same joke over and over ain't gonna make it funny


Hater.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Merged: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Sorry. 

Misbehaved...


----------



## HogsFan1188

*Re: Merged: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Let me put an end to all these "who owns who" shenanigans.

Which team is going to the playoffs this year? :biggrin:


----------



## pacerfan23

*McGrady or Kobe ?*

Who would you rather have on your team right now?

Mcgrady or Kobe


----------



## Hoopla

*Re: McGrady or Kobe ?*

Since this was just posted, and I'm the first to reply, how about everyone recognize what everyone's thinking and just _*not reply*._

That way we dont have unnecessary bumpage...


----------



## Kneejoh

*Re: McGrady or Kobe ?*

He should have put in a third that said

"Kobe and McGrady are even, but they are better at different things"


----------



## pacerfan23

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*

Let's get his straight.
The questions is who would you rather have on your team? Not neccesarily who is better, although they obviously plays a major role into that.

The fact that the perception is they are very similar "apples to apples" makes this question very relevant.


----------



## ralaw

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*

McGrady or Kobe???? I would rather have seen the title of the thread read Kobe or McGrady. Since Kobe is that great!  

To answer your question, neither since both are out of the playoffs now! The real question is, W.W.B.S? (What would Bogut Say?)


----------



## pacerfan23

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*

The beauty of it is, Kobe will have plenty of time now without Shaq to either prove his critics wrong or right. Which will be very interesting either way.


----------



## Minstrel

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*

They're both washed up. They failed. Neither became Jordan.

It's time for Bron and Wade to shine.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*

agreed, out with the old


----------



## Spriggan

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*

LeBron's not good-looking. How does he expect to ever reach MJ's popularity?


----------



## tone wone

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*



Minstrel said:


> They're both washed up. They failed. Neither became Jordan.
> 
> It's time for Bron and Wade to shine.


 when Bron and Wade fail who do you think will be the next "next Jordan"

..although i've never heard anyone call McGrady the next Jordan


----------



## HKF

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*



tone wone said:


> when Bron and Wade fail who do you think will be the next "next Jordan"
> 
> ..although i've never heard anyone call McGrady the next Jordan


There won't be one for quite some time IMO. Most of the great wing players coming out are Small Forwards not SG's IMO.


----------



## Air Fly

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*



tone wone said:


> when Bron and Wade fail who do you think will be the next "next Jordan"
> 
> ..although i've never heard anyone call McGrady the next Jordan


cuz he never played like like Jordan, he has a different style of play....Kobe tries so hard to emulate Jordan but it just wont work that way! he's kobe and Jordan is God......and please stop with this media thing that keeps poppin up who's gonna be the next Jordan bla bla. There is only one and one only, Michael Jordan..nuff said.


----------



## pacerfan23

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*

McGrady


----------



## GNG

*Re: Merged: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Merged: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

I hate thread bumpers.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

I love 'em.

This is the greatest thread of all-time. This was my prime.


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Why is this stickied?


----------



## 23isback

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

I'm sold. Dahntay > Kobe

:clap:


----------



## Minstrel

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Rawse said:


> And here's the proof.
> 
> Last night, Kobe Bryant was held to 11 points on 2-16 shooting. His second-lowest point total of the season and by far his worst night from the floor in a long time, good for just 12.5 percent.
> 
> His second-lowest shot percentage of the year, you ask? Why, it was on Nov. 10, when he went 4-19 (21%). Against the Memphis Grizzlies.
> 
> This means that Kobe Bryant is 6-35 from the floor (17%) against Memphis this season.
> 
> You may remember this as the game where not only did Kobe shoot 21 percent (the lowest percentage ever shot in the FedEx Forum -min. 10 shots), but the night where second-year player Dahntay Jones scored a career-high 12 points on 5-7 shooting, playing 24 minutes with Bonzi Wells in foul trouble.
> 
> While Jones set a career-high in scoring, his main contribution was keeping Kobe Bryant off his game. With Jones and Shane Battier on him, Kobe seemingly didn't (or just couldn't) stay on his game. He did not attempt a shot in the fourth quarter, and the Lakers lost by 23 points.
> 
> Kobe Bryant was not pleased at the end of the game, and in a postgame interview claimed, "It was a tough night for us as a unit. I can go off solo and get 50 or 60 points on these guys, but that doesn't mean we're going to win."
> 
> Bold words from a guy that just shot 4-19 against a second-year player on a team that was missing their best defender.
> 
> While Kobe refused to give any credit to his defenders, the national media noticed Jones's effort.
> 
> 
> 
> Link from NBA.com
> 
> Kobe is normally known for backing up what he says on the court, but Memphis was very nonplussed at Kobe's arrogance. Kobe didn't go off for 50 or 60 last night in the rematch at the Staples Center. In fact, he barely even got half of what he got at the FedExForum.
> 
> Kobe was frustrated by James Posey and Shane Battier all night. Kobe and JP were seen trash talking from the third quarter onward, although Bryant uncharacteristically could not gain the upper hand. Or even hit a shot. With Posey guarding him, Kobe missed his last 10 shots and was 0-6 from downtown.
> 
> But Jones once again surprised and may have even one-upped Posey. In the 16 minutes that Jones played and guarded Kobe, Bryant was held _scoreless_.
> 
> Goose egg. Absolutely nothing. Lockdown.
> 
> Instead, Kobe, frustrated and unable to get a shot off, was often looking to pass to his very esteemed teammates, such as Chucky Atkins (1-7 FG; 1-4 3PT), Jumaine Jones (2-8 FG; 1-7 3PT) and Brian Cook (2-7 FG; 2-5 3PT). After Jones got a hand on his dribble and poked the ball out of bounds, Kobe pleaded with the official to save him from the defensive wrath of Dahntay.
> 
> Dahntay, on the other hand, scored 6 points with Bryant on him.
> 
> James Posey also did very well on Kobe, forcing him into many bad shots and holding him without a single field goal in the second half and obviously getting into his head, evidenced by Kobe's begging the officials to call a foul.
> 
> This time, Kobe was a bit more humble in his postgame interview:
> 
> 
> 
> Link from NBA.com
> 
> Kobe now recognizes the ferocious D of Dahntay Jones. Now it's time for the rest of the world to take notice.
> 
> While Dahntay Jones is not known around the league as an "elite defender," he's certainly had Kobe Bryant's number in not one, but two games this season. Good for him.
> 
> <center>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> </center>


Ah yes, the year of Dahntay Jones. Great post, whether meant seriously or not.


----------



## socco

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Why is this stickied?


Why not?


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



socco said:


> Why not?


Because its a very old bait thread?


----------



## Burn

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Burn said:


> Kobe had to go to the burn unit after gettin torched by Dahntay Inferno tonight. Get better soon Kobe! :banana:


what am i
how am i so good


----------



## Cap

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Because its a very old bait thread?


Um, then why did you bump it?


----------



## Prezwoodz

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Are we desperate for a kobe thread. Its sticky too. wow


----------



## byrondarnell66

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

This is ridiculous, might as well disbannned Mac Ten and let him bash Kobe, curse out all the Mods and insult all the other posters too.


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



EHL said:


> Um, then why did you bump it?


Read the post dates. Rawse bumped it, not me.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Is Diamante Jones still in the league, dreaming of being the next Devean George?


----------



## pmac34

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

is this thread resurrected every playoffs?


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Who is this player rawse keeps bringing up? Is he still in the NBA? Does he stop any other player not named Kobe Bryant? Is he any better than Rubben Patterson? Is he worthy of a sticky thread? 4.0-1.5-0.5 is meaningfull? Did he play in the playoffs?

Oh, so many questions...


----------



## Minstrel

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



PauloCatarino said:


> Who is this player rawse keeps bringing up? Is he still in the NBA?


Yes, Kobe's still in the NBA. Not in the NBA playoffs anymore, but still in the NBA.


----------



## MarioChalmers

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

:laugh: 

Only real homers get offended by this thread.


----------



## Captain Obvious

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

I am baffled that people are *still* getting angry and defensive over this thread.

Well done Rawse.


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

why is this a sticky?
jaja Kobe owns Dahntay , Kobe makes 20 million dollars a year jajajaajajaj
:curse: :curse: :curse: :curse:


----------



## Funkyzeit mit Matt

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Dahntay owns Kobe, but pretty soon he will be out of the league and the bank will own his house


----------



## Unique

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Read the post dates. Rawse bumped it, not me.



Rawse using his super mod powers to cause havoc!


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Unique said:


> Rawse using his super mod powers to cause havoc!


Hey, I paid _good uCash_ for this sticky! :clown:


----------



## Unique

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Rawse said:


> Hey, I paid _good uCash_ for this sticky! :clown:


I stole your Ucash so you dont cause anymore havoc around here! *******.


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Unique said:


> I stole your Ucash so you dont cause anymore havoc around here! *******.


 :clap: But doesn't he still have some in his bank?


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Unique said:


> I stole your Ucash so you dont cause anymore havoc around here! *******.


WTF


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

LMFAO, I just stole some more from him.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Jealousy is a curse.


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

:laugh:

Withdraw some more points from your bank.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Shadyballa8D13 said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Withdraw some more points from your bank.


Trust me, it's...really not a big deal.


----------



## clips_r_teh_wieners

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

is this some kind of inside joke or feud between the mods? 





cuz this thread sucks


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



clips_r_teh_wieners said:


> cuz this thread sucks


You suck.

Nyah.


----------



## AK-47

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Dahntay's dirt he walks on > Kobe


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

276430.20 stolen from Rawse successfully!

Hehehe...


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

:laugh: Keep it coming Rawse.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Shadyballa8D13 said:


> :laugh: Keep it coming Rawse.


Every time Shady attempts a steal is another week this thread stays stickied.

Keep it coming, Shades. :laugh:

I have about 20 million in the bank right now.


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

I'm waiting for the admins to reset the product.

Quantity: 0.


----------



## pmac34

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Rawse said:


> You suck.
> 
> Nyah.


didnt you jsut PM me on my posts toward others?


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



pmac34 said:


> didnt you jsut PM me on my posts toward others?


Notice the Nyah.

I'm not telling people to "go to another board" or to "DIE DIE DIE DIE" like you.

Nyah.


----------



## AK-47

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

This thread must live forever!


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Damnit, restock the damn theifs!


----------



## melo4life

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

free post


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Still waiting...


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Why exactly is this stickyed?


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/ushop.php?


----------



## Pasha The Great

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

what the hell...


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Theif is back!

185979.40 stolen from Rawse successfully!


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Theif is back!
> 
> 185979.40 stolen from Rawse successfully!


That's chicken scratch.



> 19827778.00 stolen from Shadyballa8D13 successfully!


Now _that's_ a heist. :laugh:


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

DAMMIT! You deposited all your money!

Cheater.


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Rawse said:


> Every time Shady attempts a steal is another week this thread stays stickied.
> 
> Keep it coming, Shades. :laugh:
> 
> I have about 20 million in the bank right now.


What happened? I just attempted a steal.

Why is the thread unstickied? Did I call your bluff?


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



Shadyballa8D13 said:


> What happened? I just attempted a steal.
> 
> Why is the thread unstickied? Did I call your bluff?


Nah, it's been stickied for almost three weeks. It's just time to take it down.


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Why won't it let me sticky this thread?


----------



## Shady*

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

I re-stickied my favorite thread.


----------



## Animism

*Re: LeBron James*

Definately a bust.....what a waste of a number one pick...


----------



## Silent But Deadly

*Re: LeBron James*

Please never claim that he has 'Magic Johnson's vision' ever again.  I mean... as athletic as Kobe, maybe, but vision like Magic? No.


----------



## naibsel

*Re: LeBron James*



Silent But Deadly said:


> Please never claim that he has 'Magic Johnson's vision' ever again.  I mean... as athletic as Kobe, maybe, but vision like Magic? No.


right now he is playing with magic court vision -5(watever that means), he has to carry his team every night, he still doesn't have people that can finish well enough for him to focus on playing making. if he ever is on a team that needs a third hand for all the rings, he will probs be magic court vision -3, or -2


 when i first starting read this thread i was really hoping for someone to go way overboard on how much of a bust he would become


----------



## Shady*

*Re: LeBron James*

Does anyone have the link to the first Greg Oden thread?


----------



## neoxsupreme

*Re: LeBron James*



blove84 said:


> Kobe didn't have superior handles than James when he was coming out. Kobe could never play the point guard position. James has Magic Johnson like vision and he can handle the ball like him too. Kobe had superior handles. Yeah Right!!!


So not true. Kobe had as good as handles in high school as James did in high school if not better. James is great @ controlling his dribble in different paces of a game but Kobe had just these sick moves that I've yet to see James do. Kobe had flashier, pt guard like handles. James is a good ball handler but it's still 1 of the weaker aspects of his game now & when he was coming into the NBA. Kobe obviously has improved mightily since high school but handling was 1 of his strengths coming into the NBA. James was a much better passer though. Go watch some Kobe highschool vids.


----------



## duncan2k5

*Re: LeBron James*

you guys suck...plz don't ever be scouts.


----------



## jordanrowe31

*Re: LeBron James*

looks like everyone here was dead wrong it was really funny seeing how wrong all the lebron haters were personally i agreed with the guy who said lebron would put up 20 5 and 5 his rookie year


----------



## Intense Enigma

*Re: LeBron James*

owned


----------



## GNG

*Re: LeBron James*

I like bumps like these because they really separate the men from the boys.

I hope some of the banned posters in this thread took up following another sport.


----------



## The OUTLAW

*Re: lebron James*



Tom said:


> I saw his team lose to a bunch of low talent white boys in the state finals and i didn't see what the pro scouts see. This guy may be the biggest bust of all times. Some of which won't be his fault. He has no way of knowing how hard he needs to work, he has been told he is the greatest thing ever. This might be one of the saddest stories everL; i hope not.


Good thing your not a scout.


----------



## JNice

*Re: LeBron James*



Rawse said:


> I like bumps like these because they really separate the men from the boys.
> 
> I hope some of the banned posters in this thread took up following another sport.



I can't wait to start bumping Darko threads after this season.


----------



## Dre

*Jordan's unfair advantage?*



> Several NBA team executives are angry with what they call an unfair advantage that Charlotte Bobcats minority owner Michael Jordan has due to his exclusive access to future NBA prospects in his Jordan Brand All-American high school game and Flight School camps, and they want the commissioner's office to forbid his involvement.
> 
> Across the league, executives are decrying what they consider to be the new "Jordan Rules" of the NBA.
> 
> "Danny Ainge ends up seated next to Kevin Durant's mother and gets fined $30,000, but Michael goes out and plays one on one with [top high school prospect] O.J. Mayo and it is not a problem?" one Western Conference general manager grumbled.
> 
> "It's a conflict of interest."


The new Jordan rules - NBA - Yahoo! Sports

They have a point...but then again he got fined for talking about Durant, so they aren't necessarily letting him run free. 

I suppose it's ok for him to work with HSers but not college players now that HSers can't enter the draft directly. I don't think they should be able to say anything to him though, because the NBA runs a HS all-star game too, and it's not like GMs and Scouts can't go to that one and get an upclose look at players.

What do you guys think about this conflict of interests though?


----------



## Real

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

I agree with this. If I'm not mistaken college players work at his camp, and there are always a few future NBA players that play in that game. 

But that's why the Bobs paid MJ all of this money, for little things like this.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

They certainly didn't pick him for his abiilty to build a team.


----------



## Mateo

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

Am I missing something, but isn't there a *draft* in the NBA? Jordan can polish Durant's shoes on a daily basis if he wants, it really doesn't help the Bobcats one iota.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



futuristxen said:


> They certainly didn't pick him for his abiilty to build a team.


So Jordan is a failure of a GM after one chance, his first at that. GMs don't get a trial and error period?


----------



## Dre

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



Mateo said:


> Am I missing something, but isn't there a *draft* in the NBA? Jordan can polish Durant's shoes on a daily basis if he wants, it really doesn't help the Bobcats one iota.


I disagree. Jordan is getting an extra/up close look at prospects that he can factor into his draft pick..and considering your draft decision is based off scouting mostly, he's getting an advantage of sorts.


----------



## Mateo

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



_Dre_ said:


> I disagree. Jordan is getting an extra/up close look at prospects that he can factor into his draft pick..and considering your draft decision is based off scouting mostly, he's getting an advantage of sorts.


How so? Every team in the league can already talk to the players and get an "up close look" at them. They all run personality tests and such of players they are considering drafting. All Jordan is doing is talking to the guy now, instead of in June. I fail to see any advantage gained here. Unless the Bobcats land the #1 or #2 pick, they aren't getting Durant.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



Mateo said:


> How so? Every team in the league can already talk to the players and get an "up close look" at them. They all run personality tests and such of players they are considering drafting. All Jordan is doing is talking to the guy now, instead of in June. I fail to see any advantage gained here. Unless the Bobcats land the #1 or #2 pick, they aren't getting Durant.


The point is he gets extra scouting under the guise of his summer camps. If the NBA is fining people for _talking_ about prospects, how can he get to do this? They should either stop being uptight and fining people or really enforce these rules and not allow Jordan to do this but other GMs to not talk to them.


----------



## Mateo

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

Yes, I'm in favor of allowing teams to scout whoever, whenever. The teams invest a lot of money in players, and I see no real advantage to making them make blind decisions.


----------



## magohaydz

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



Mateo said:


> Yes, I'm in favor of allowing teams to scout whoever, whenever. The teams invest a lot of money in players, and I see no real advantage to making them make blind decisions.


I agree - they should be able to do pretty much what they want. Think of the money they pour into this kind of thing. They really should make sure their investment is worthy


----------



## Spriggan

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



Mateo said:


> Yes, I'm in favor of allowing teams to scout whoever, whenever. The teams invest a lot of money in players, and I see no real advantage to making them make blind decisions.


I've also never understood why they don't just give every team the freedom to scout prospects whenever they feel the need to. What's the reasoning behind it? Do they think it could affect scouted players' seasons if they're actively being looked at "too early"?


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



magohaydz said:


> I agree - they should be able to do pretty much what they want. Think of the money they pour into this kind of thing. They really should make sure their investment is worthy


What they don't want is an Eli Manning scenario with the picks. Therefore, that draft prospect has to go blindly into a situation and not complain. And I really don't think that this "extra" scouting time that Jordan gets really gives him an edge... he DID draft Morrison and Brown


----------



## Mateo

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



IceMan23and3 said:


> What they don't want is an Eli Manning scenario with the picks. Therefore, that draft prospect has to go blindly into a situation and not complain. And I really don't think that this "extra" scouting time that Jordan gets really gives him an edge... he DID draft Morrison and Brown


You'll have to explain what you mean by a "Eli Manning" scenario, I don't understand what you mean. I don't watch football.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



Mateo said:


> You'll have to explain what you mean by a "Eli Manning" scenario, I don't understand what you mean. I don't watch football.


He was supposed to go to the San Diego Chargers, but said that he wouldn't sign with them and in the end, they were forced to trade him to NY Giants in order to not waste the No 1 overall draft selection. If a GM develops a good rapport with a potential draft pick, he could possibly send word that he wouldn't sign with the team that drafts him if it isn't the specific team he wants.


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



IceMan23and3 said:


> He was supposed to go to the San Diego Chargers, but said that he wouldn't sign with them and in the end, they were forced to trade him to NY Giants in order to not waste the No 1 overall draft selection. If a GM develops a good rapport with a potential draft pick, he could possibly send word that he wouldn't sign with the team that drafts him if it isn't the specific team he wants.


The difference is there's no flexibility in 1st round pick contracts in the NBA, there's no negotiating or holding out. You can't demand more money or anything, you get a set amount for a set number of years depending on what pick you are.


----------



## Mateo

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



IceMan23and3 said:


> He was supposed to go to the San Diego Chargers, but said that he wouldn't sign with them and in the end, they were forced to trade him to NY Giants in order to not waste the No 1 overall draft selection. If a GM develops a good rapport with a potential draft pick, he could possibly send word that he wouldn't sign with the team that drafts him if it isn't the specific team he wants.


That's already happened several times under the current rules. You can't control spoiled athletes. Shouldn't handicap every team for a very rare occurrence. Besides, players have no leverage in this situation. If I was a GM I'd say "fine, have fun making 100 grand in europe, I'm not trading your rights".


----------



## c_dog

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

i think they're just a bunch of whiners. jordan may have that to his advantage but to each his own. i don't see why jordan should be singled out. advantage yes, unfair no. they're just going to end up shooting themselves in the foot if they keep this whining up and nba decides to do something drastic and most likely make the rules even worse.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



c_dog said:


> i think they're just a bunch of whiners. jordan may have that to his advantage but to each his own. i don't see why jordan should be singled out. advantage yes, unfair no. they're just going to end up shooting themselves in the foot if they keep this whining up and nba decides to do something drastic and most likely make the rules even worse.


How is a GM a whiner when part of their job is to scout and one of them is getting an unfair advantage? That's silly.


----------



## magohaydz

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



_Dre_ said:


> How is a GM a whiner when part of their job is to scout and one of them is getting an unfair advantage? That's silly.


I put this to all the other GM's who think Jordan has an unfair advantage.....YOU start a ****ing highschool tournament yourselves then.

**edited: Type the actual curse word and let the filter take care of it. Don't partially mask it, thanks.*


----------



## Dre

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



magohaydz said:


> I put this to all the other GM's who think Jordan has an unfair advantage.....YOU start a f***ing highschool tournament yourselves then.


Yep, so GMs start their own all-star games to get their own personal looks at these prospects.

I can see the Petrie Invitational now :nonono:


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

This isn't such a big deal with Durant, as he is a no-brainer pick at number 1 or 2 (him and Oden both) and whoever lucks into those picks will pick them. It's a bigger issue in the middle of the first round or something like that, where you get more exposure to certain players and have a better grasp on a players abilities and mind. Even if it doesn't do him a bit of good, it's important to have an equal playing field for all the GM's to keep things fair.


----------



## eymang

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

To me, this just shows why all the rules are stupid in general. Stern just doesn't want attention going away from his league with people making public comments about the players. 

As pointed out above, it's a draft, let them wine and dine em all they want. If this is about 'swaying' some decision, eh, they're already getting worse advice from a lot of people who know less than what they're talking about


----------



## MarioChalmers

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

He's Michael ****ing Jordan, he has the right to have a mother****ing invitational. It's not like other GMs are banned from watching the said invitational anyway.


----------



## c_dog

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



_Dre_ said:


> How is a GM a whiner when part of their job is to scout and one of them is getting an unfair advantage? That's silly.


Again, it's not unfair, hence it's whining. Why don't they just start holding all these games and camps of their own if they want? It's just a matter of whether they can actually get all the best players to attend or not. Think about it. If you were a top baller in the country would you rather go to one of Jordan's Flight Camps, or Danny Ainge's camps.

Jordan is Jordan, his advantages are his because he put in the work earlier in his career(whether it be playing ball, or advertising and building prestige with his camps and the Jordan Brand) and as a result has all these resources to his aid. Unfair would be forcing him to cut all ties with something he worked so hard to build.


----------



## croco

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

I think the teams are talking to the prospects anyway, it really doesn't matter if it's the GM or someone else who is interested in scouting a player. If they want some information, they will get it.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



c_dog said:



> Again, it's not unfair, hence it's whining. Why don't they just start holding all these games and camps of their own if they want? It's just a matter of whether they can actually get all the best players to attend or not. Think about it. If you were a top baller in the country would you rather go to one of Jordan's Flight Camps, or Danny Ainge's camps.
> 
> Jordan is Jordan, his advantages are his because he put in the work earlier in his career(whether it be playing ball, or advertising and building prestige with his camps and the Jordan Brand) and as a result has all these resources to his aid. Unfair would be forcing him to cut all ties with something he worked so hard to build.


they don't start their own camps because THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO. they don't have access to these kids. they're restricted. that's the point. 



> Under the revised rules, NBA teams are limited in opportunities to evaluate and interact with future draft prospects. No club representative can watch high school practices or games – let alone play against them as Jordan has. Out of fear that league executives can influence young prospects to leave school early, Stern has wanted to end NBA personnel's contact with prep players.
> 
> .......................
> 
> Jordan's Flight Schools, where adults pay to be taught by top coaches and players, also allow substantial access for Jordan and the kids over a week-long period.
> 
> Last summer's session in Santa Barbara, Calif., included Mayo and college players such as Arizona's Chase Budinger, Indiana's D.J. White, Kansas' Julian Wright and former Boston College center Sean Williams. They competed in daily counselor games, where direct competition was the norm. All but Mayo are eligible for this June's draft.
> 
> No other NBA team was allowed to watch those games at the Flight School.


----------



## xray

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

To me, it's a conflict of interest. Jordan's a legend who is still marketing if you will his status as such. He has more access to personnel and prospects, and unwearyingly or not, he’s using that status to promote his agenda.

If the league has a problem with that – and obviously they do – they should say, “Sorry Mr. Jordan, but you are in a position that gives you an unfair advantage in comparison with the other general managers in the league.”


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

if jordan was simply using his celebrity as an advantage, this wouldn't be an issue. of course that's an advantage - that's one of the reasons he is where he is. but when you have access to kids that other teams are prohibited from having, its an undue advantage.


----------



## c_dog

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



kflo said:


> they don't start their own camps because THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO. they don't have access to these kids. they're restricted. that's the point.


But it says nothing about starting their own camps. they made it clear they're allowed almost zero interaction with high school kids by not allowing them to attend games or practices, or watch them at flight camps(although they can always hire representatives), but it hasn't mentioned anything regarding hosting camps for them. there's a loop hole in the rules obviously as jordan, the founder of the jordan brand flight camps, is the only gm who can still interact with these kids through his camp. the question here is should the league make a "jordan rule" and forbid general managers from hosting/taking part in their own basketball camps.

Why i said this isn't unfair is because there ISN'T a rule stating a general manager can't have his own camp. It merely states they're not allowed to attend HS practices, games, or camps but nothing about gm's starting their own. So technically these gm's CAN start their own camps. They just won't be as successful as Jordan's and most likely won't get the top prospect who would opt to go to the more prestigious Jordan Brand Flight camps.

So yes, they're all just a bunch of whiners.


----------



## lw32

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

kflo is right. Anyone that argues there is no advantage to having your own HS camp and all-star game probably hasn't been around the HS/AAU scene. They also shouldn't be listened to, as they have no idea what they're talking about.


----------



## lw32

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



c_dog said:


> Why i said this isn't unfair is because there ISN'T a rule stating a general manager can't have his own camp. It merely states they're not allowed to attend HS practices, games, or camps but nothing about gm's starting their own. So technically these gm's CAN start their own camps. They just won't be as successful as Jordan's and most likely won't get the top prospect who would opt to go to the more prestigious Jordan Brand Flight camps.


So GMs/owners can host their own camps now? Care to show me where this is stated in the CBA?

GMs/owners are clearly not allowed to have contact with "amateur athletes." It's stated as such, if the player has not declared for the NBA draft, he's off limits. Unless the GMs camp is done via video tape he's going to come into contact with these "amateur athletes."

Do you really think that the NBA hires incompetent lawyers? The NBA is not about to let every GM/owner open his own summer camp. There will be a clause in the CBA which prohibits such actions.

And to set the the record straight, MJ is not a GM. He's a part owner.


----------



## HB

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

Why are execs complaining? Do your jobs properly and you won't be worried about someone else having an advantage over you. Instead of relying on what draft sites say, isnt this the purpose of scouts?


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



HB said:


> Why are execs complaining? Do your jobs properly and you won't be worried about someone else having an advantage over you. Instead of relying on what draft sites say, isnt this the purpose of scouts?


if someone has a unfair competitive advantage over you, you should complain. isn't that obvious? no problem with insider trading either?


----------



## HB

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



kflo said:


> if someone has a unfair competitive advantage over you, you should complain. isn't that obvious? no problem with insider trading either?


How exactly does he have an unfair advantage on anyone? Those games arent in seclusion. Thise same execs complaining get invites to the game just like every other professional sports scout, its not like Jordan restricts anyone from watching.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



HB said:


> How exactly does he have an unfair advantage on anyone? Those games arent in seclusion. Thise same execs complaining get invites to the game just like every other professional sports scout, its not like Jordan restricts anyone from watching.


here:



> But Jordan continues to run his high school game. And in private practice sessions, he has an opportunity to watch elite prospects go head to head in matchups his own all-star coaches can create. For example, Jordan can measure the talent and competitiveness of top guards Mayo of Huntington, W.Va., and Derrick Rose of Chicago in the kind of closed-door workout environment that can give him insight into preferences over which point guard to chose in the 2008 draft.
> 
> That kind of evaluation is invaluable to league executives, and whether Jordan or one of his staff witnesses it, there's a widespread belief in the league that it gives the Bobcats an unmistakable edge. Other NBA teams are prohibited from attending any all-star game practices or functions and are allowed only to watch the game itself.


----------



## HB

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

See the problem with such is, this kids are always going to try to play competitive for a guy like Jordan. I guess you could say he does have some type of advantage, but at the end of the day regarding draft position, the Bobcats have limitations also.

Also since the kids pretty much have to go to college nowadays I dont see the big deal about an allstar game that wont have any barring on where this players get drafted a year later


----------



## GNG

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

But he's _Michael Jordan_! He should be able to do whatever he wants whenever he wants, regardless of whether it's fair and regardless of whether or not it's against what's already put in place.

Why are people trying to make Jordan walk the same path as everyone else? How are we supposed to idol-worship him if he's not given all sorts of liberties and advantages?


----------



## Minstrel

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



Rawse said:


> Why are people trying to make Jordan walk the same path as everyone else?


Jordan has never _traveled_ the same path as everyone else. Why should he now be forced to _take steps_ to divest himself of an unfair advantage?

If Jordan, in life, can _pick up the basketball and take more steps towards the hoop, without dribbling, than any other player_, just learn to compete with that, don't whine.

If you take my meaning.


----------



## Pimped Out

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

i though they didnt want GMs and owners talking to underclassmen and high school kids because they didnt want them to influence the kids to go pro.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*

You guys don't have the right perspective. 

If you're a scout, and your *job* is to look at kids, and the NBA fines you and slaps you around for getting close contact or w/e with them and some other exec is able to do it, it's not fair. Don't matter who he is.


----------



## c_dog

*Re: Jordan's unfair advantage?*



Lachlanwood32 said:


> So GMs/owners can host their own camps now? Care to show me where this is stated in the CBA?
> 
> GMs/owners are clearly not allowed to have contact with "amateur athletes." It's stated as such, if the player has not declared for the NBA draft, he's off limits. Unless the GMs camp is done via video tape he's going to come into contact with these "amateur athletes."
> 
> Do you really think that the NBA hires incompetent lawyers? The NBA is not about to let every GM/owner open his own summer camp. There will be a clause in the CBA which prohibits such actions.
> 
> And to set the the record straight, MJ is not a GM. He's a part owner.


It's not stated that they can, but it's also not stated that they CAN'T.

And GM's don't need to have contact with amateur athletes in their camps. They can just study the tapes which are supposedly so "invalueable"(even though they can always scout them in colleges).

And you're right, maybe if the GM/owners around the league decide to open their own camps, there will be a clause. Right now there isn't one, otherwise Jordan wouldn't have been allowed to purchase the bobcats in the first place.

And no, MJ is not a GM but the whiners are.



I think this is laughable when nba execs act like a bunch of babies. If Jordan had such an advantage why didn't more teams try to get jordan involved in their franchises? And now that he's back they're all crying to david stern.


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

*Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

...people talk about the man as if basketball never existed before him....and as if his on court accomplishments are unmatchable or haven't been done before....

Funny thing though....

Tell me whens the last time Jordan led his HS to 3 straight titles, whens the last time Jordans college team won 3 straight national championships, whens the last time Jordans college team had a run of 88-2, whens the last time dunking was taken out of the college game because of Jordan, whens the last time Jordan was the main option on his college team????

""As a sophomore at Power Memorial, he averaged 19 points and 18 rebounds as Power went undefeated. It went unbeaten again in Alcindor's junior season. The next year, for the first time in 72 games, Alcindor and Power lost, beaten 46-43 by DeMatha Catholic High School of Maryland. Alcindor, who had been averaging 30 points, was held to 16. It was his only loss in his last three years. He finished his career at Power in 1965 with 2,067 points and 2,002 rebounds (both New York City records).

Alcindor played for the best college team in the country in 1965-66, but unfortunately for him and his teammates, freshmen were ineligible to compete for the varsity then. In their first game, the first game ever at Pauley Pavilion, the UCLA freshmen whipped the varsity, two-time defending champions and preseason No. 1, 75-60. Alcindor scored 31 points, grabbed 21 rebounds and blocked seven shots. The Brubabes went 21-0 and Alcindor averaged 33 points and 21 rebounds.

In Alcindor's first varsity game, he set a UCLA record by scoring 56 points. Later that season, he scored 61. He averaged 29 points and 15.5 rebounds with a .667 shooting percentage as John Wooden's Bruins went 30-0. They beat Dayton 79-64 in the NCAA final for the first of seven consecutive championships. 

The most serious competition in the NBA in 1969 was a coin flip. Two first-year teams -- the 16-66 Phoenix Suns and the 27-55 Milwaukee Bucks -- were the two worst teams in the league, and they flipped for the first pick of the draft. The Suns lost, and the Bucks gained the right to choose Alcindor.

With Alcindor averaging 28.8 points (second in the NBA) and 14.5 rebounds (third), the Bucks improved to 56-26 and reached the Eastern Division finals before losing to the Knicks. IN HIS FIRST PRO SEASON!!!.

The next season was even sweeter. The Bucks had a league-best 66-16 record behind Alcindor, whose sky hook became the most devastating weapon in the game, and newly acquired Oscar Robertson. Alcindor led the NBA with a 31.7 scoring average and was voted MVP. The Bucks didn't stop there, cruising to the NBA title by winning 12 of 14 playoff games. After the Bucks swept the Baltimore Bullets in four games, Alcindor was voted the Finals MVP.

A Muslim since his college days, Alcindor legally changed his name to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the fall of 1971. The name change didn't bother his performance as he won his second straight MVP, averaging a league-high 34.8 points.

In 1975, Abdul-Jabbar said Milwaukee was inadequate for his cultural needs. The Bucks traded him to the Lakers for center Elmore Smith, guard Brian Winters and rookie blue chippers Dave Myers and Junior Bridgeman. Despite LA finishing 40-42 and out of the playoffs, Abdul-Jabbar won his fourth MVP after averaging 27.7 points (second in the league) and leading the NBA with 16.9 rebounds and 4.12 blocks per game.

Sad thing the DPOY award wasn't created until the 82-83 season because I don't think its impossible to say Kareem would have gotten at least one....and blocks weren't recorded until the 73 season if I'm not mistaken...

When Abdul-Jabbar retired in 1989 at age 42, his career regular-season numbers were 24.6 points per game, 11.2 rebounds, 3.6 blocked shots and a .559 shooting percentage. He was first-team all-league 10 times and second-team 5 times. He also holds NBA records for most seasons of 1,000 or more points (19), most minutes played (57,446), and most field goals (15,837).""




People always talk about Jordans 6 rings and MVPs...

Lets talk about Kareems 6 rings and 6 MVPs of which 3 came in his first 5 years and 4 in his seven seasons in the league...rather than have everyone believe that Jordan is the only great player to exist...

When talking about an all time greatest basketball player, try and include all 3 levels of play...not just one....and before you say the other two levels don't matter, why do they even play them then?? Why is there a McDonalds All American game, why are you filling out a bracket every march???

Michael Jordan the greatest basketball player EVER????

Only if you were raised on ESPN....

With the first pick of the draft, the WifeCheckers take none other than KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR....


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

and Eddie House tied Kareem's NCAA most points scored in a game record... so what? When Kareem went down in the Finals, Magic led the team to victory. Yes Kareem is a Top 5 All Time player, and it is splitting hairs, but Jordan changed the game moreso than Kareem. Jordan made it worldwide, made it more popular than it had ever been. He is the face of the NBA. I think that the two are inseparable now. To say a player is better than Jordan is almost to say that he is better than the NBA itself. While there have been many greats, some legends, Jordan has become something mythical because of what he could do. He wasn't the biggest, the strongest, but he was the best in the league. No one wants to root for Goliath to win.


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



IceMan23and3 said:


> and Eddie House tied Kareem's NCAA most points scored in a game record... so what? When Kareem went down in the Finals, Magic led the team to victory. Yes Kareem is a Top 5 All Time player, and it is splitting hairs, but Jordan changed the game moreso than Kareem. *Jordan made it worldwide, made it more popular than it had ever been. He is the face of the NBA.* I think that the two are inseparable now. To say a player is better than Jordan is almost to say that he is better than the NBA itself. While there have been many greats, some legends, *Jordan has become something mythical because of what he could do.* He wasn't the biggest, the strongest, but he was the best in the league. No one wants to root for Goliath to win.


and that has what to do with on court accomplishments???


myth-1.	a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
2.	stories or matter of this kind: realm of myth.
3.	any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.
4.	an imaginary or fictitious thing or person.
5.	an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.


I laid down facts from HS to college to pros, get back to me when Jordan can match those accomplishments...


----------



## Krstic All-Star

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Kareem wasn't even the best Center ever, and should be ranked after MJ, by all rights. What defines true greatness is not advantages at lower levels of play, particularly for a man who towered over everyone else by a fair margin. The real test of a man's ability (in any area) is his performance in the highest levels of competition. 

And to look at the greatest Center of all time, look further back, and try to read up on Wilt Chamberlain.


----------



## Fray

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



IceMan23and3 said:


> and Eddie House tied Kareem's NCAA most points scored in a game record... so what? When Kareem went down in the Finals, Magic led the team to victory. Yes Kareem is a Top 5 All Time player, and it is splitting hairs, but Jordan changed the game moreso than Kareem. Jordan made it worldwide, made it more popular than it had ever been. He is the face of the NBA. I think that the two are inseparable now. To say a player is better than Jordan is almost to say that he is better than the NBA itself. While there have been many greats, some legends, Jordan has become something mythical because of what he could do. He wasn't the biggest, the strongest, but he was the best in the league. No one wants to root for Goliath to win.


This basically sums it up.


----------



## unluckyseventeen

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Yes, he is the best ever. He excelled more greatly compared to the others based on the position he played, the time he played in (better skilled players and larger talent pool), and did a lot for NBA basketball as a whole. 

By the way, who was Kareem constantly defended by? 7 footers who couldn't tie their shoe right if you held a gun up to their head? Jordan faced the team's best defender every single night. This was also with more physical play than NBA today without fouls called. Check out Jordan's statistics from the first 5-6 years of his career. His effectiveness as both an offensive player and a defensive player dwarf Kareem's considering the circumstances.

Jordan is not heralded as the best player of all time for no reason. I think I'll listen to everyone in the world and virtually every basketball analyst over a guy (that's you) that is just annoyed at people calling him the greatest. Not to mention your material to back up your claim is weak. Nobody cares what you do in High School.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife said:


> and that has what to do with on court accomplishments???
> 
> 
> myth-1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
> 2. stories or matter of this kind: realm of myth.
> 3. any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.
> 4. an imaginary or fictitious thing or person.
> 5. an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.
> 
> 
> I laid down facts from HS to college to pros, get back to me when Jordan can match those accomplishments...


And yes, I used the word correctly, but I am glad that you know how to look stuff up.
well, see, everyone likes Jordan more and we really don't care about HS or college, just the pros. And Jordan averaged more ppg in the playoffs than Kareem(33 vs. 24), scored more points in the playoffs (5,987 in 12 seasons vs. 5,762 in 19years) and that is where the fame is made. How's that for fact?


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



unluckyseventeen said:


> Yes, he is the best ever. He excelled more greatly compared to the others based on the position he played, the time he played in (*better skilled players and larger talent pool*), and did a lot for NBA basketball as a whole.
> 
> By the way, who was Kareem constantly defended by? *7 footers who couldn't tie their shoe right if you held a gun up to their head?* Jordan faced the team's best defender every single night. This was also with more physical play than NBA today without fouls called. * Check out Jordan's statistics from the first 5-6 years of his career. His effectiveness as both an offensive player and a defensive player dwarf Kareem's considering the circumstances.*
> 
> Jordan is not heralded as the best player of all time for no reason. I think I'll listen to everyone in the world and virtually every basketball analyst over a guy (that's you) that is just annoyed at people calling him the greatest. Not to mention your material to back up your claim is weak. Nobody cares what you do in High School.


Who was Jordan defended by??? Guys 3 to 4 inches shorter....also, Kareem proved his worth by making other 7 footers look like the way you described....

Check out Kareems stats in his first 5-6 years....THREE buddy, THREE MVPs...but I guess you missed the part where it says how Kareem turned the Bucks around from the worst team to the best...

so in essence, you're admitting that TODAYS NBA is better skilled with MORE players....


men and women lie....the numbers don't....Kareems numbers thoughout his entire basketball career, make Jordans and everyone elses pale in comparison....

again, if Jordan was so phenomenally great, how come he didn't even make his own HS squad much less lead them to 3 straight titles, how come he wasn't even the main option on his college team much less lead them to 3 straight national championships and an 88-2 record???

"oh but we don't care about college".....sure you don't buddy, thats why we have a March Madness, because nobody cares about it...


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



IceMan23and3 said:


> And yes, I used the word correctly, but I am glad that you know how to look stuff up.
> well, see, *everyone likes Jordan more *and we really don't care about HS or college, just the pros. And Jordan averaged more ppg in the playoffs than Kareem(33 vs. 24), scored more points in the playoffs (5,987 in 12 seasons vs. 5,762 in 19years) and that is where the fame is made. How's that for fact?



notice the key words you used...LIKES.....that doesn't necessarily mean he was better simply because you liked him better...

Jordan also had the best SF ever at his side and the best rebounder and defensive PF at his side for 3 title runs....lets not forget that...Kareem wasn't too big of an ego to relinquish control of a team in order for the team to be successful either...Jordan just quit...3 times when the going got tough....


as I have stated, get back to me when Jordan can match numbers at the other two levels besides the pros....Best EVER is a big title...."but we don't care"....sure we don't, thats why the nation was enamored with a kid in high school by the name of Lebron James, why we have a McDonalds game, why there is a March Madness....


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Krstic All Star said:


> Kareem wasn't even the best Center ever, and should be ranked after MJ, by all rights. What defines true greatness is not advantages at lower levels of play, *particularly for a man who towered over everyone else by a fair margin.* The real test of a man's ability (in any area) is *his performance in the highest levels of competition. *
> 
> And to look at the greatest Center of all time, look further back, and try to read up on Wilt Chamberlain.


again, how often did Jordan get defended by 6'6 guards??

and yes, I have done reading on Wilt Chamberlain, and his best scoring seasons were those in which he was allowed to inbounds the ball to himself over the backboard and score...He was also allowed to hop from the free throw line when making an attempt...He was also allowed to goaltend....He also played in a league where the majority of players were much MUCH smaller, and when faced against another elite opponent, Bill Russell, he often failed....



I guess you missed the part where he won SIX MVPs, 3 in his first 5 seasons, 4 in his first 7.....So again, how is that not against the best competition???
Oh because its just inconceivable that anyone can be better than Jordan....


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife said:


> ...people talk about the man as if basketball never existed before him....and as if his on court accomplishments are unmatchable or haven't been done before....
> 
> Funny thing though....
> 
> Tell me whens the last time Jordan led his HS to 3 straight titles, whens the last time Jordans college team won 3 straight national championships, whens the last time Jordans college team had a run of 88-2, whens the last time dunking was taken out of the college game because of Jordan, whens the last time Jordan was the main option on his college team????
> 
> ""As a sophomore at Power Memorial, he averaged 19 points and 18 rebounds as Power went undefeated. It went unbeaten again in Alcindor's junior season. The next year, for the first time in 72 games, Alcindor and Power lost, beaten 46-43 by DeMatha Catholic High School of Maryland. Alcindor, who had been averaging 30 points, was held to 16. It was his only loss in his last three years. He finished his career at Power in 1965 with 2,067 points and 2,002 rebounds (both New York City records).
> 
> Alcindor played for the best college team in the country in 1965-66, but unfortunately for him and his teammates, freshmen were ineligible to compete for the varsity then. In their first game, the first game ever at Pauley Pavilion, the UCLA freshmen whipped the varsity, two-time defending champions and preseason No. 1, 75-60. Alcindor scored 31 points, grabbed 21 rebounds and blocked seven shots. The Brubabes went 21-0 and Alcindor averaged 33 points and 21 rebounds.
> 
> In Alcindor's first varsity game, he set a UCLA record by scoring 56 points. Later that season, he scored 61. He averaged 29 points and 15.5 rebounds with a .667 shooting percentage as John Wooden's Bruins went 30-0. They beat Dayton 79-64 in the NCAA final for the first of seven consecutive championships.
> 
> The most serious competition in the NBA in 1969 was a coin flip. Two first-year teams -- the 16-66 Phoenix Suns and the 27-55 Milwaukee Bucks -- were the two worst teams in the league, and they flipped for the first pick of the draft. The Suns lost, and the Bucks gained the right to choose Alcindor.
> 
> With Alcindor averaging 28.8 points (second in the NBA) and 14.5 rebounds (third), the Bucks improved to 56-26 and reached the Eastern Division finals before losing to the Knicks. IN HIS FIRST PRO SEASON!!!.
> 
> The next season was even sweeter. The Bucks had a league-best 66-16 record behind Alcindor, whose sky hook became the most devastating weapon in the game, and newly acquired Oscar Robertson. Alcindor led the NBA with a 31.7 scoring average and was voted MVP. The Bucks didn't stop there, cruising to the NBA title by winning 12 of 14 playoff games. After the Bucks swept the Baltimore Bullets in four games, Alcindor was voted the Finals MVP.
> 
> A Muslim since his college days, Alcindor legally changed his name to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the fall of 1971. The name change didn't bother his performance as he won his second straight MVP, averaging a league-high 34.8 points.
> 
> In 1975, Abdul-Jabbar said Milwaukee was inadequate for his cultural needs. The Bucks traded him to the Lakers for center Elmore Smith, guard Brian Winters and rookie blue chippers Dave Myers and Junior Bridgeman. Despite LA finishing 40-42 and out of the playoffs, Abdul-Jabbar won his fourth MVP after averaging 27.7 points (second in the league) and leading the NBA with 16.9 rebounds and 4.12 blocks per game.
> 
> Sad thing the DPOY award wasn't created until the 82-83 season because I don't think its impossible to say Kareem would have gotten at least one....and blocks weren't recorded until the 73 season if I'm not mistaken...
> 
> When Abdul-Jabbar retired in 1989 at age 42, his career regular-season numbers were 24.6 points per game, 11.2 rebounds, 3.6 blocked shots and a .559 shooting percentage. He was first-team all-league 10 times and second-team 5 times. He also holds NBA records for most seasons of 1,000 or more points (19), most minutes played (57,446), and most field goals (15,837).""
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People always talk about Jordans 6 rings and MVPs...
> 
> Lets talk about Kareems 6 rings and 6 MVPs of which 3 came in his first 5 years and 4 in his seven seasons in the league...rather than have everyone believe that Jordan is the only great player to exist...
> 
> When talking about an all time greatest basketball player, try and include all 3 levels of play...not just one....and before you say the other two levels don't matter, why do they even play them then?? Why is there a McDonalds All American game, why are you filling out a bracket every march???
> 
> Michael Jordan the greatest basketball player EVER????
> 
> Only if you were raised on ESPN....
> 
> With the first pick of the draft, the WifeCheckers take none other than KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR....



I sense a lot of hostilty from you. Take three of these and call the doctor in the morning: :chill: :chill: :chill:


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife said:


> again, how often did Jordan get defended by 6'6 guards??


How about you go to basketball-reference.com, look up every team's starting SG from '88-'93 and get back to us, instead of conjecturing based on a few examples. Do the same for '96-'98 when he was still dominating at an advanced age. And '02 and '03, when he was still playing at an all-star level at age 39-40. I know for a fact that the average height of SG's hasn't changed more than half an inch since the late 80's/early 90's.


----------



## kamego

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Jordan was the most popular and famous player to ever touch the hardwood. Also he was one of the games greatest finishers ever. At the end of the day though if you got to be one player for a day or a season, Bill Russell would be my pick.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Jordan23Forever said:


> How about you go to basketball-reference.com, look up every team's starting SG from '88-'93 and get back to us, instead of conjecturing based on a few examples. Do the same for '96-'98 when he was still dominating at an advanced age. And '02 and '03, when he was still playing at an all-star level at age 39-40. I know for a fact that the average height of SG's hasn't changed more than half an inch since the late 80's/early 90's.


out of the 1000+ 20 ppg seasons EVER, jordan's '02 season ranks the WORST EVER in terms of scoring effiency (relative to league average). worst ever. his '03 was 31st worst ever. out of 1000+.


----------



## xray

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife said:


> as I have stated, get back to me when Jordan can match numbers at the other two levels besides the pros....Best EVER is a big title...."but we don't care"....sure we don't, thats why the nation was enamored with a kid in high school by the name of Lebron James, why we have a McDonalds game, why there is a March Madness....


You seem to be quite obsessed with performance outside the NBA, so let's discuss the aspect of what Jordan was and Kareem wasn't.

While Jordan put a face on the NBA during a period which could well have suffered a vacuum – the decline and retirement of Magic and Bird – and was Stern’s pen in the writing of global incentives, Kareem was aloof toward the media and fans.

This, imo, does little for the game and even more damage for fan relations during a time of racial and social unrest. Jordan meanwhile – well, he did the opposite.


----------



## unluckyseventeen

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



kflo said:


> out of the 1000+ 20 ppg seasons EVER, jordan's '02 season ranks the WORST EVER in terms of scoring effiency (relative to league average). worst ever. his '03 was 31st worst ever. out of 1000+.


Yep, when he was 39 and 40 years old. Way to prove... a point?

How were his seasons 2-6 in his career? Answer me that, then try to talk him down.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



unluckyseventeen said:


> Yep, when he was 39 and 40 years old. Way to prove... a point?
> 
> How were his seasons 2-6 in his career? Answer me that, then try to talk him down.


the point is to stop pointing to those seasons as proof of how good he was. which is what the post i was responding to was doing. seems obvious, no?


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



xray said:


> You seem to be quite obsessed with performance outside the NBA, so let's discuss the aspect of what Jordan was and Kareem wasn't.
> 
> While Jordan put a face on the NBA during a period which could well have suffered a vacuum – the decline and retirement of Magic and Bird – and was Stern’s pen in the writing of global incentives, Kareem was aloof toward the media and fans.
> 
> This, imo, does little for the game and even more damage for fan relations during a time of racial and social unrest. Jordan meanwhile – well, he did the opposite.


but focusing on non-game related points does little regarding the argument of best player. most important, biggest star, sure, but best player? marketing and media relations should affect who the best player was?


----------



## unluckyseventeen

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Nobody here was really stating he was his greatest at that age. To be a guard at 39-40 in the NBA during any era and still perform the way he did is remarkable, no matter how you spin it. Most good NBA guards are out of the league and can't keep up with the rest of them by the time they are 35, often younger.

My main point is that the original poster can't say anything about Jordan vs Kareem while they were in the NBA. He's either obsessed with what happened before the NBA, or he's tired of Jordan and obviously can't appreciate what is put in front of him, and can't deal with the fact that he was the greatest player to ever play the game considering all circumstances.

Just the fact that a guy is still in the NBA, a guard who has pushed the pedal to the metal his entire career... Being able to still play at that age is remarkable enough.


----------



## casebeck22

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Jordan is the best ever. When it comes to what he did for the game, I don't think anyone will ever touch his greatness.


----------



## xray

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



kflo said:


> but focusing on non-game related points does little regarding the argument of best player. most important, biggest star, sure, but best player? marketing and media relations should affect who the best player was?


What happens on the court is a very small part of what the game is about, believe it or not - the money that the NBA generates greatly eclipses salaries and ticket sales. The difference in personality itself is enough to make one appealing to *billions*, the other just a spectacle for those around the game to appreciate. One is a marketing goose who lays golden eggs by the dozen...no mention of the other's capability in this arena. 

Combining a career of such a caliber with the ability to take it to the masses is, to me, what separates the two. The gift is not in knowledge or talent, but the ability to share what you have with others.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



xray said:


> What happens on the court is a very small part of what the game is about, believe it or not - the money that the NBA generates greatly eclipses salaries and ticket sales. The difference in personality itself is enough to make one appealing to *billions*, the other just a spectacle for those around the game to appreciate. One is a marketing goose who lays golden eggs by the dozen...no mention of the other's capability in this arena.
> 
> Combining a career of such a caliber with the ability to take it to the masses is, to me, what separates the two. The gift is not in knowledge or talent, but the ability to share what you have with others.


who the better player was is ALL about what they did on the court. again, the other stuff is about who may have been more important to the game, generated more money, interest, but NOT who the better player was. for that, you have to look on the court.


----------



## xray

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



kflo said:


> who the better player was is ALL about what they did on the court. again, the other stuff is about who may have been more important to the game, generated more money, interest, but NOT who the better player was. for that, you have to look on the court.


First, I'll confess that my perspective is adjusted by the fact that I'm older than most on this board, and thus see the game in a different light than I used to. You better have more in your bag than a jump shot.

Secondly, as always it's difficult (at least for me) to compare different players from not only different eras - but more importantly, two different positions in which they were both dominant. How do you say who was more athletic? Snap judgment is to say MJ, but a 7 footer with the ability to do what Kareem did is spectacular in his own right. 

I'll call their playing ability a draw - with the business side decidedly in Jordan's favor. :biggrin:


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Jordan is arguably the best ever. More realistically, he is 1st tier, along with Kareem, Wilt and so on.


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

You can legitimately make a best ever case for three players easily . . . Russell, Jordan, and Wilt. You can make a harder case for a few others (Kareem, Magic, Mikan, Shaq). Russell is the greatest winner, Wilt the greatest individual player, Jordan the greatest non-pivot . . . those are the easy judgements. Comparing Jordan's titles + individual dominance to Wilt's greater individual dominance but lesser titles or to Russell's lesser statistical dominance but more titles . . . that's what makes an argument. I have no problem with people claiming Jordan is the greatest though I have some problems with jerks who rip anyone that argues differently but that's not an issue with Jordan.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> You can legitimately make a best ever case for three players easily . . . Russell, Jordan, and Wilt. You can make a harder case for a few others (Kareem, Magic, Mikan, Shaq). Russell is the greatest winner, Wilt the greatest individual player, Jordan the greatest non-pivot . . . those are the easy judgements. Comparing Jordan's titles + individual dominance to Wilt's greater individual dominance but lesser titles or to Russell's lesser statistical dominance but more titles . . . that's what makes an argument. *I have no problem with people claiming Jordan is the greatest though I have some problems with jerks who rip anyone that argues differently but that's not an issue with Jordan*.


That is what pisses me off the most.

In one's opinion, Jordan is the greatest ever? Sure, why not? Everybody's entitled to have an opinion on the issue. But it better be a substantiated (sp?) one, and not the usual crap like:

- "He changed the game". That's BS. Guys like Wilt and Kareem (and even Shaq) changed the rules the game of basketball was played. That's impact. What Jordan did game-wise was making refs eat their whistles...

- "He made the NBA global". That's BS. Stern and his posse did it, not Jordan, who was an instrument (like the McDonald's Opens, having regular season games played abroad, etc). Jordan helped sell the game of basketball. That has 0 effect on his real basketball skills. 0. I call it the "David Beckham effect".

- "He dominated a tougher league than Wilt, who played with another rules and against white mifgest". Well, if one should obbey to that rule of thinking, there's no way to be able to pick a GOAT basketball player. Wilt (or Russell) was the greatest player with no goaltending rules; Wilt (or Russell) was the greatest player without th 3 point shot; Jordan was the greatest player without the xone defense... Sounds stupid, no? There is only one game: basketball. Wethere the rules have changed or not, the game is still the same.


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## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



xray said:


> You seem to be quite* obsessed with performance outside the NBA*, so let's discuss the aspect of what Jordan was and Kareem wasn't.
> 
> While Jordan put a face on the NBA during a period which could well have suffered a vacuum – the decline and retirement of Magic and Bird – and was Stern’s pen in the writing of global incentives, Kareem was aloof toward the media and fans.
> 
> This, imo, does little for the game and even more damage for fan relations during a time of racial and social unrest. Jordan meanwhile – well, he did the opposite.



Stay on topic...ON COURT ACHIEVEMENTS....not who was a better endorser, charity giver, hand waver etc...but 

ON THE COURT ACHIEVEMENTS throughout an ENTIRE career...

get back to me when Jordan or any player can match what Kareem did from high school to college to the pros.....

How come barely anyone can comprehend such a simple notion???

I'll try it in the form of a question....

Which player had the most dominant career from high school to college to the pros???


----------



## magohaydz

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife said:


> Which player had the most dominant career from high school to college to the pros???


Rony Seikaly


----------



## Diable

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Judging HS careers is about the most idiotic thing you could do.The level of competition varies so widely as to make any conclusions you draw absolutely useless.If you look at Kareem's college career he was obviously a superior player to Jordan and practically anyone else,but he was also playing in a time when the level of competition was far less.

If you want to argue who was the best college player ever well then you need to ***** about David Thompson because he was a lot better than Jordan or Alcindor in college.Thompson was in a different league from Jordan in the NCAA.In fact Jordan isn't a top ten player in ACC history.It isn't relelvant.Jordan made his legend in the NBA and if you can't argue that Kareem was better in the NBA that's really your problem rather than ours.


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife said:


> notice the key words you used...LIKES.....that doesn't necessarily mean he was better simply because you liked him better...
> 
> *Jordan also had the best SF ever at his side* and the best rebounder and defensive PF at his side for 3 title runs....lets not forget that...Kareem wasn't too big of an ego to relinquish control of a team in order for the team to be successful either...Jordan just quit...3 times when the going got tough....
> 
> 
> as I have stated, get back to me when Jordan can match numbers at the other two levels besides the pros....Best EVER is a big title...."but we don't care"....sure we don't, thats why the nation was enamored with a kid in high school by the name of Lebron James, why we have a McDonalds game, why there is a March Madness....


You are kidding right? Pippen is the best SF ever? Haven't you heard of Bird? What about hondo, Elgin, or Dr.J? Rick Barry? The human highlight film? Is Pippen really even better than a healthy Bernard King? Better than TMac or Lebron? 

Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird, and Oscar can all be argued to be the greatest ever.


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## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



kflo said:


> out of the 1000+ 20 ppg seasons EVER, jordan's '02 season ranks the WORST EVER in terms of scoring effiency (relative to league average). worst ever. his '03 was 31st worst ever. out of 1000+.


He was 39. To even score 20 ppg at that age is quite a feat and his impact on the Wiz was undeniable. The team improved from 19 wins to 26 wins by the all star break and looked like they were headed for the playoffs before Jordan had to get knee surgery. Outside of Rip his teammates were pretty much crap. Jordan was also on pace for a 25-5-5 season (at 39!) before he had to get surgery and his final stats are kind of skewed by the really bad games he played after returning. It is really too bad his bad knee finally caught up to him. Still an 18 game improvement is quite amazing and shows that even at 39 Jordan had some MVP left in him.


----------



## xray

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Abstract argument.

:thinking:

You've got all kinds of opinions from differing ideas and beliefs, and to each of us they are correct. 

How can you compare two players or teams when they cannot compete against each other for superiority? Both Jordan and Kareem were (duh) a couple of the greatest to ever play...so what if Kareem dominated earlier in another arena? It's another place and time, as been mentioned it can't be calculated.

I wonder if people sit around art galleries and argue which painting is the greatest. That's what this is like.


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## KillWill

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



casebeck22 said:


> Jordan is the best ever. When it comes to what he did for the game, I don't think anyone will ever touch his greatness.



you mean he had a greater global impact than espn, nike, and gatorade? talk about a "perfect storm." whoever made the "raised on espn" remark hit the nail on the head. it's too bad they didn't figure out how to hawk sweat shop shoes and food-colored water this well in the Big O's day.


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## KillWill

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Diable said:


> Judging HS careers is about the most idiotic thing you could do.The level of competition varies so widely as to make any conclusions you draw absolutely useless.If you look at Kareem's college career he was obviously a superior player to Jordan and practically anyone else,but he was also playing in a time when the level of competition was far less.
> 
> *If you want to argue who was the best college player ever *well then you need to ***** about David Thompson because he was a lot better than Jordan or Alcindor in college.Thompson was in a different league from Jordan in the NCAA.In fact Jordan isn't a top ten player in ACC history.It isn't relelvant.Jordan made his legend in the NBA and if you can't argue that Kareem was better in the NBA that's really your problem rather than ours.



or pistol pete


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## Basel

*How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

Just wondering what you guys think about this. Let's say Scottie wasn't on the Bulls teams of the 90s and it was just Jordan and the rest of the other Bulls. If he didn't have Pippen, would Jordan have still won six titles? Remember, he didn't win any before Pippen arrived.


----------



## Ras

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

He wouldn't have won six, no.


----------



## Air Fly

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

12


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## Jizzy

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

55.


----------



## Dre

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

:whoknows:


There's absolutely no way to tell what would have happened.


----------



## Kuskid

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

This is just a way of rephrasing the question we haven't heard nearly enough of lately, "do you like Michael Jordan?" No one knows how many MJ would (or wouldn't) have won. Haters will say zero, fanboys will say several. Bottom line is, no one knows, people will just throw out guesses based on their prejudices.


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## jazzy1

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

I'm guessing the same amount he won without Pippen in the 5-6 years they didn't play together including the Wizards. 

Great players win with a great teammate or teammates.


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## el_Diablo

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

without pip and no one to replace him = 0.


----------



## kflo

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

there are very few teams ever (none?) that if you simply removed the teams 2nd best player they would still win. maybe the 60s celts who were deep, but not many. in reality, the bulls would have kept trying to put the right pieces around him. no sure things though. many stars go a long time without the right pieces.


----------



## KillWill

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

orange?


----------



## Theonee

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

we can't really say, can we?
Same thing applies to Shaq and Kobe, how many would they have won without each other?


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## Basel

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



kflo said:


> there are very few teams ever (none?) that if you simply removed the teams 2nd best player they would still win. maybe the 60s celts who were deep, but not many. in reality, the bulls would have kept trying to put the right pieces around him. no sure things though. many stars go a long time without the right pieces.


Piston in 04 possibly?


----------



## Mateo

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



Air Fly said:


> 12


cosigned.


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

hmmmm.... Jordan playing without one of the 50 greatest players of all time


0 final answer


----------



## Minstrel

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



Basel57 said:


> Just wondering what you guys think about this. Let's say Scottie wasn't on the Bulls teams of the 90s and it was just Jordan and the rest of the other Bulls.


As you've stated it, zero. Your question assumes no Pippen and no replacement. Removing either Jordan or Pippen and providing no replacement means no championships.

In the real world, the Bulls may have found the necessary talent replacements. But players of that caliber are rare, so it's well under 50-50 that they would have found another player of that caliber to team with Jordan throughout most of his career.


----------



## O2K

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

4.65


----------



## Mateo

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

Actually, to be serious, I think they could have won at least one without Pippen. Heck, they almost made it to the ECF without Jordan.

I think the 96 team was loaded enough that they would have won minus Pippen. Heck, given even a solid replacement - a Tayshaun Prince / Richard Jefferson for a modern comparison - and I think they almost certainly would have won.


----------



## Pain5155

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

3-6.

Someone wouldve stepped up in pippens place.

ANd how many titles would pippen have won without jordan, 0.


----------



## arhie

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

To answer this question appropriately we have to look at some scenarios. Who would they have got if they didn't trade Pippen to the bulls. Bulls could have easily drafted Reggie Miller or Kevin Johnson or even Mark Jackson, so i don't think it would have mattered. Their record probably would have been a little worse so they would get better pcisk each year. MJ might not win as many but would still win a few.


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## RickyBlaze

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



O2K said:


> 4.65


that sounds about right..


----------



## Blink4

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



unluckyseventeen said:


> Nobody here was really stating he was his greatest at that age. To be a guard at 39-40 in the NBA during any era and still perform the way he did is remarkable, no matter how you spin it. Most good NBA guards are out of the league and can't keep up with the rest of them by the time they are 35, often younger.
> 
> My main point is that the original poster can't say anything about Jordan vs Kareem while they were in the NBA. He's either obsessed with what happened before the NBA, or he's tired of Jordan and obviously can't appreciate what is put in front of him, and can't deal with the fact that he was the greatest player to ever play the game considering all circumstances.
> 
> Just the fact that a guy is still in the NBA, a guard who has pushed the pedal to the metal his entire career... Being able to still play at that age is remarkable enough.


Jordan isnt the only player to play into his 40s. Kareem did this as well, and although he was playing with some great players he still put up solid numbers in limited minutes. I'm not saying anything about who between them is the better player, I'm just sick of people riding Jordans jock because he scored 20ppg when he was 39.


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## Air Jordan 23

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Jordan was also a guard. Centers have a longer lifespan, playing-wise, in the NBA.


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## jordan0386

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

In order words, you're asking how many chips he would get with avg teams

...the world will never know...and its fair that way:clap:


----------



## Eternal

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

I'd say 1-2, assuming he had someone at around the all-star level, and other players on the Bulls stepped up.

Like others have said though previously, we will never know.


----------



## @[email protected]

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

With shaq, he will win 16 in a row!


----------



## Spriggan

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



Mateo said:


> Actually, to be serious, I think they could have won at least one without Pippen. Heck, they almost made it to the ECF without Jordan.


That just goes to show you how good Pippen was. The fact that Pippen nearly carried the Bulls to the Eastern Conference Finals without MJ is a testament to Pippen's ability and how good a team the Bulls were, and if anything, a slight against MJ.


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## Phenom Z28

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

At most, 3.

They wouldn't have won in '93, '97 and '98. That's easy.

It's hard to say...in '91 Pippen was the MAN gaurding Magic in the finals. But since the Bulls won in 5 games, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Michael.

In '92 the Bulls dominated the regular season but almost lost to the Knicks in 7 games. Pippen was getting murdered in that series though so I still think Jordan would have been able to win it without Pip. Scottie was valuable in the finals as well but I still think Mike could have pushed the Bulls past the Blazers.

1996 the Bulls were so dominant that I don't think losing Scottie for the season would have taken away a ring.

I think it's funny when people try to downplay Pippen as some kind of puppet to Michael or something. Pippen, even without Jordan was a top 30 player all-time. If New York wouldn't have been so lucky in the '94 series against Chicago, the Bulls might have won a championship led by Pippen, not Michael.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

Assuming absolutely no replacement? Probably zero or one at the most. Who can win with their second best player putting up 13/9.5 (Grant) and not a ton of depth?

Assuming an all-star caliber replacement, probably 2-4; it depends on who the replacement was. I will say that imo if Pippen was replaced with a shotblocking (2-2.5 blocks)/14-16 ppg big man (say, a Larry Nance type), they would have won _at least_ 4 titles. Replace Pippen with an _elite_ defensive big (even if offensively challenged) like Mutombo and I think they still get 5-6.


----------



## Aussie Baller

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

In the series against the Jazz were Michael hit the game winner after stealing it off Malone before the game to commentators were saying that Pippen was favourite for the Finals MVP, but because he hurt his back and didn't have that great a game Jordan stepped up and won the game and the MVP. The Bulls needed Pippen to carry the ball give Jordan a rest during the game.

Edit: they would have won <6


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## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



> If you want to argue who was the best college player ever well then you need to ***** about David Thompson because he was a lot better than Jordan or Alcindor in collegeor pistol pete



Lew Alcindors team went 88-2 in his three year varsity career and 21-0 with the freshman team....

TWO losses in FOUR years...and won 3 national championships in a row...


I don't think the same can be said about the other two...


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## Blink4

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Air Jordan 23 said:


> Jordan was also a guard. Centers have a longer lifespan, playing-wise, in the NBA.


I don't care. If you are going to make the statement that Jordan is better than others because he played into his 40s, then you give credit to the other players who did it, regardless of position.


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## ChiBron

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

In reality the Bulls management would've eventually gotten another AS and nothing would've stopped MJ from dominating the league. This of course assuming Phil Jackson is the coach. 

To answer the question though I still see MJ winning a couple of rings with the EXACT same roster w/o Pip. If the 93-94 team could make the ECS w/o MJ, then they're definitely going significantly farther with MJ and no Pip. The Bulls always had a terrific record when Pip missed a few games. In 97-98 he missed 35 games and a VERY old Bulls team still went 24-11. In 95-96 they won all 5 games he missed. Heck, in 93-94 when Pippen missed 10 games the MJ-less Bulls went 7-3. Which is why I've always said Pippen "carrying" the 93-94 Bulls is a myth. That was a balanced *team* if there ever was one. I saw every game that season and those guys played tremendous team D and executed the triangle to perfection(mostly thanks to PJ's peerless coaching ability). You had a bunch of solid contributors in Grant/BJ/Kukoc(all entering their prime) + a *DEEP* bench: They acquired Longley/Wennington/Kerr/Kukoc(all valuable components of the 2nd 3peat) w/o losing any of their key frontline players(Cartwright/Purdue/Williams) from the 1st 3peat. That 93-94 Bulls team team was ridiculously DEEP. Thus such a terrific record even w/o Pip. Saying Pip "carried" 'em would be selling that team's talent too short. It was a talented veteran squad that was coming off a 3peat + added plenty more w/o losing anything. Once MJ returned they won 17 more games w/ that exact roster and had that record setting season(difference being the 95-96 team lost the 1st 3peat frontline that played on the 93-94 team entirely).


----------



## Diable

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

If there's no Pippen MJ never retires twice and gets more oppurtunities to win titles.Now the Bulls were a pretty good organization and it's almost certain they would have put enough talent around Jordan to have won at least one or two titles.How many is not a worthwhile question.

What seems certain to me is that Jordan would have been very close to Kareem's career points record if you assume that he stays healthy and there is never any Pippen.He almost certainly would have played four more prime or near prime seasons without the retirements and without as many titles to make him satisfied that he'd secured his legacy.Maybe that doesn't mean another 6100 points,but I rather doubt that he'd have gotten close and then walked away.


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

Well without Pippen that's extra salary cap, more PT for a guy that could have played well, etc. So you just can't really tell...


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Lets not forget that Jordan also quit the game twice when the going got tough...

lol at people who want to say the best "EVER", the greatest of "ALL TIMES" but exclude anything that happened outside of the NBA...That in itself is a joke....

Best EVER and greatest of ALL TIMES is why you have to include all three phases of their careers, not just one....


----------



## Diable

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

David Thompson was a better college basketball player than Alcindor and that's all there is to it.Your argument is infantile and really not worthy of a response.Just say that you hate Jordan and you can't compose a rational argument for why Kareem was better.College is college and the NBA is not.


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Air Jordan 23 said:


> Jordan was also a guard. Centers have a longer lifespan, playing-wise, in the NBA.



i'm actually curious if you have any stats to support this statement. that would be interesting to know, though it seems odd. it's not like playing shooting guard is like being an nfl tailback or something, who knows.


----------



## osman

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



Hibachi! said:


> Well without Pippen that's extra salary cap, more PT for a guy that could have played well, etc. So you just can't really tell...


Pippen was actually underpaid in his prime. He made his money in Houstan/Portland. Plus there was no hard salary cap back in the day.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Kareem scored because he was tall and had a shot that noone could interfere with.He was able to continue to score in his late thirties because of his height and his mastery of the skyhook.Also a lot of your NBA centers at that point were essentially Mark Eaton type players who practically grew roots in the paint.

When Jordan played with the WIzards he was really reduced to being a jumpshooter because he couldn't physically play the way he did during his career in Chicago.You have to be able to beat the best athletes in the world when you're an NBA wing and it's hard to see how a man in his mid to late thirties is going to be able to compete against a 25 year old man when athleticism is a key factor.


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Diable said:


> David Thompson was a better college basketball player than Alcindor and that's all there is to it.Your argument is infantile and really not worthy of a response.Just say that you hate Jordan and you can't compose a rational argument for why Kareem was better.College is college and the NBA is not.



Infantile?? 

Facts are now infantile??

Heavily sought by collegiate basketball programs, he played for the UCLA Bruins from 1966 to 1969 under coach John Wooden, contributing to the team's three-year record of 88 wins and only two losses (at the time freshmen were not eligible for varsity athletics). During his college career he was twice named Player of the Year (1967, 1969), was a three-time First Team All-American (1967-69), played on three NCAA Basketball champion teams (1967, 1968, 1969), was honored as the Most Outstanding Player in the NCAA Tournament (1967, 1968, 1969), and became the first-ever Naismith College Player of the Year in 1969. In 1967, 1968 he also won USBWA College Player of the Year which later became Oscar Robertson Trophy.

and no, I don't hate Jordan, he's actually one of my favorite players to watch, I got chills watching the shot versus Cleveland, "OOHHed" when he switched hands vs the Lakers, "OMG" when ripped the Blazers at home with 3 after 3 after 3....but I do have a problem with people mentioning him as the greatest EVER, greatest of ALL TIME without even mentioning other portions of his basketball career, and just automatically snubbing everyone else who accomplished great things in the sport of basketball...


think about these two phrases for a moment...

best EVER...

greatest of ALL TIME...


why exclude everything else before the pro game as if it never existed???

How can one be the best EVER or greatest of ALL TIME without making his HS squad or even being the main man on his college team???


----------



## 1 Penny

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

Ridiculous assumptions.

IF Pippen was literally taken away without replacement during those years... then No. Obviously the Bulls lose their second best player and the best player at his position by far.


However... thats assuming, Bulls..
1) Did not trade or draft another player that is suitable to their system
2) Another player stepped up... given the minutes and role opportunity.


So bottomline... No accurate answer.. or fair answer..

How many titles would Magic have without Kareem?
How many titles would Bird have without McHale?

Would the NBA be as big as it is... if Jordan didnt play basketball at all?

Will Kobe even have his game style or a motivation if Jordan didnt exist before him?.. better yet would he even play basketball?..


As all these questions... the answer is NO ONE KNOWS.


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Diable said:


> *Kareem scored because he was tall and had a shot that noone could interfere with*.He was able to continue to score in his late thirties because of his height and his mastery of the skyhook.Also a lot of your NBA centers at that point were essentially Mark Eaton type players who practically grew roots in the paint.
> 
> When Jordan played with the WIzards he was really reduced to being a jumpshooter because he couldn't physically play the way he did during his career in Chicago.You have to be able to beat the best athletes in the world when you're an NBA wing and it's hard to see how a man in his mid to late thirties is going to be able to compete against a 25 year old man when athleticism is a key factor.


So why hasn't every other 7 footer since Kareem been able to develop that shot and use it to their advantage??? Would make sense to do so right??? Or could it be that Kareem was just THAT DAMM GREAT??? Mark Eaton and Manute Bol were taller, how come they were nowhere near Kareem???


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

nm


----------



## 1 Penny

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



SPMJ said:


> In reality the Bulls management would've eventually gotten another AS and nothing would've stopped MJ from dominating the league. This of course assuming Phil Jackson is the coach.
> 
> To answer the question though I still see MJ winning a couple of rings with the EXACT same roster w/o Pip. If the 93-94 team could make the ECS w/o MJ, then they're definitely going significantly farther with MJ and no Pip. The Bulls always had a terrific record when Pip missed a few games. In 97-98 he missed 35 games and a VERY old Bulls team still went 24-11. In 95-96 they won all 5 games he missed. Heck, in 93-94 when Pippen missed 10 games the MJ-less Bulls went 7-3. Which is why I've always said Pippen "carrying" the 93-94 Bulls is a myth. That was a balanced *team* if there ever was one. I saw every game that season and those guys played tremendous team D and executed the triangle to perfection(mostly thanks to PJ's peerless coaching ability). You had a bunch of solid contributors in Grant/BJ/Kukoc(all entering their prime) + a *DEEP* bench: They acquired Longley/Wennington/Kerr/Kukoc(all valuable components of the 2nd 3peat) w/o losing any of their key frontline players(Cartwright/Purdue/Williams) from the 1st 3peat. That 93-94 Bulls team team was ridiculously DEEP. Thus such a terrific record even w/o Pip. Saying Pip "carried" 'em would be selling that team's talent too short. It was a talented veteran squad that was coming off a 3peat + added plenty more w/o losing anything. Once MJ returned they won 17 more games w/ that exact roster and had that record setting season(difference being the 95-96 team lost the 1st 3peat frontline that played on the 93-94 team entirely).



Good answer.

Also just to point this out.

Championship teams are champions for a reason...

They play better with each other than any other team... period.

Each one makes each other better by having a very team oriented game style... either acquired by simply copying their methods that got them succesful... or by learning from coaches.. hence yes.. coaches are very important too.


Put MJ on a team full of talented players but with selfish attitudes and players without sacrifice-to-win approach.. then.. I dont think that team would be as succesfull..

But just to compare... I think replace Kobe with a prime MJ with the current Lakers team.. I think they'll favourites to win it all.. honest. (assuming they've played together the whole year and Phil Jackson has everyone on the same page)


----------



## melo4life

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

It is basically impossible to tell, but I think that he wouldn't really have won any more then what he did.


----------



## rainman

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

Am i the only one who noticed this is basically another Kobe thread?


----------



## ChiBron

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



rainman said:


> Am i the only one who noticed this is basically another Kobe thread?


LOL, I'm sure it was obvious to EVERYONE.


----------



## Basel

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



rainman said:


> Am i the only one who noticed this is basically another Kobe thread?


That's not what I was intending at all by the thread. I don't want this to turn into a Kobe vs Jordan argument.


----------



## xray

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife said:


> think about these two phrases for a moment...
> 
> best EVER...
> 
> greatest of ALL TIME...
> 
> 
> why exclude everything else before the pro game as if it never existed???


I think the point's been made - I too have a problem with "fastest man" or "strongest man" because of the fact it's impossible to take the entire world's population into account.

But these are two different players, with two different skill sets who play two different positions - how exactly do you guage their greatness when compared to each other?


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

I'll take Wilt over Kareem. Let's not forget that Kareem played practically his entire career with the two greatest point guards of all-time.


----------



## unluckyseventeen

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

I think it's funny how much you try to relate everything to the NCAA or High School. The guy was SEVEN FEET TALL. How many high school kids or even college kids in the 70's are going to be able to guard that guy? If he was anything other than dominant in high school I would be really dissapointed in him. Get off his jock for doing what he was supposed to do.

Your points are awful only because all you can do is say what he did before the pros. Nobody gives a **** when you play against far inferior talent, and you dominate against a bunch of pimple-faced teenage boys. Jordan dominated as a pro, as a guard, and for his entire career.

I could blow you away with an argument that Maravich was a more skilled college player, so by your logic, Pistol Pete is probably the best player of all-time, right?

Whenever somebody asks you to say anything about the pros, you immediately defer to a time when Kareem was a giant among boys. Wow, that takes some superior talent! I bet he had to reach really far!

Say something about the pros because you are getting it handed to you in this thread. That usually happens when you post in hatred of a player or group of people.


----------



## rainman

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



Basel57 said:


> That's not what I was intending at all by the thread. I don't want this to turn into a Kobe vs Jordan argument.


No problem its a legitimate question, these guys need help no matter who they are.


----------



## unluckyseventeen

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife said:


> So why hasn't every other 7 footer since Kareem been able to develop that shot and use it to their advantage??? Would make sense to do so right??? Or could it be that Kareem was just THAT DAMM GREAT??? Mark Eaton and Manute Bol were taller, how come they were nowhere near Kareem???



Mark Eaton was found working at an auto shop during college. He didn't even play basketball until some guy came up and asked him to play for his Junior College. The Jazz didn't even try to work on his game because he was a big clumsy oaf that never got trained to actually play basketball, he just got trained to be really tall and block people's shots. Nevermind Eaton averaged a career-high 5.6 blocks per game during the 84-85 season, so I'd say he was pretty successful for a 4th round draft pick and being a auto-mechanic prior to ever seriously playing basketball.

Manute Bol was just an embarrasment. I can't believe you'd use that kind of logic to try to prove a point. You compare a trained basketball player to a couple of clumsy oafs, saying "this is why he's so good - because these guys aren't!"


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



rainman said:


> Am i the only one who noticed this is basically another Kobe thread?


It's obvious. And I'm a Kobe homer.

And Jordan would have won titles with out Pippen. I also find it funny that people are not saying wait a minute the Bulls didnt win titles when Pippen/Jordan played together early in their careers, and late in their careers. Pippen could be replaced with another all star caliber player, and the Bulls would have won titles.


----------



## TiMVP2

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

8. Scottie Pippen blackmailed him into retirment for 2 years after there first champion, he did something about it and MJ retired, but later Pippen realized the team wasnt as good as jordan and Pippen wasn't better then Jordan and he came back.


----------



## Fray

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

If the Bulls had the exact same team but no Pippen then they still would have been a great team. I don't know how many championships they would have won though.


----------



## VeN

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

its pretty stupid to assume without pippen the answer is 0. At the very least with the Bulls teams back then he wouldve gotten at least 1.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

lets not forget kareem was arguably the best h.s. and college player ever, AND he won 6 nba mvp's and 6 nba titles. he was the best nba player in the world the second he stepped on the floor. 

please don't compare maravich as a collegiate to alcindor. kareem was 2 time player of the year (losing out to elvin hayes who averaged 37 and 19), and won 88 of 90 games for his career (3 titles). maravich's teams were 49-35 and never made the tourney. and he shot 44% in college. kareem scored 0.4 ppg less than thompson, and obviously had a bigger defensive impact and scored more efficiently. not sure what the argument is for thompson over lew, even recognizing how dominant d.t. was. no disrespect to the skywalker, but i can't see anyone picking him over lew for their college team.


----------



## kflo

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

it's also pretty naive, imo, to assume that without pippen some other all-star comes along to take his place. hakeem, ewing and robinson all went almost their entire prime careers without a single all-star teammate. a different question is what happens if scottie teams with one of them instead of mj. 

this isn't any slight of mj. everyone needs to be surrounded by some talent to be successful. again, you could pose the same question to any player and they likely don't win. but it's also a bit foolish to not acknowledge how circumstances contributed to our current view of mj (or magic or bird or just about any other multiple winner).


----------



## Minstrel

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



kflo said:


> and won 88 of 90 games for his career (3 titles). maravich's teams were 49-35 and never made the tourney.


I don't think team records illustrate anything. Alcindor joined a powerful collegiate program in UCLA, Maravich joined a program, LSU, that was terrible prior to his arrival and turned the program around, making it a winner.

From Wikipedia: 



> The year before [Maravich] arrived, the varsity posted a 3-20 record. In Pete's senior season, LSU was 20-8 and participated in the NIT


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Minstrel said:


> *I don't think team records illustrate anything*. Alcindor joined a powerful collegiate program in UCLA, Maravich joined a program, LSU, that was terrible prior to his arrival and turned the program around, making it a winner.
> 
> From Wikipedia:



oh no, so tell me why a frosh team led by Alcindor beat the mighty Bruins varsity roster when the varsity squad was supposed to be the best team in the NATION???

But I guess 3 national championships in a row is a yearly occurance, I mean, all it takes is a real tall center with a great shot right???

Wrong, there was a reason why Kareems teams great, because of Kareem...Who else turned around an organization they way he did with the Bucks in ONE season and winning the whole shebang in his SECOND SEASON???

Its easy right, simply because Kareem was tall and had a great shot...

uh, no....




> Mark Eaton was found working at an auto shop during college. He didn't even play basketball until some guy came up and asked him to play for his Junior College. The Jazz didn't even try to work on his game because he was a big clumsy oaf that never got trained to actually play basketball, he just got trained to be really tall and block people's shots. Nevermind Eaton averaged a career-high 5.6 blocks per game during the 84-85 season, so I'd say he was pretty successful for a 4th round draft pick and being a auto-mechanic prior to ever seriously playing basketball.
> 
> Manute Bol was just an embarrasment. I can't believe you'd use that kind of logic to try to prove a point. You compare a trained basketball player to a couple of clumsy oafs, saying "this is why he's so good - because these guys aren't!"


BS, the kid said that Kareem scored simply because he was tall, I brought up examples to show how being tall doesn't automatically equate to great, thanks for following my lead....




> I think it's funny how much you try to relate everything to the NCAA or High School.


When talking about ALL TIME, how can you sit there and refuse to acknowledge any other portions of the mans basketball playing career?? Oh I get it, simply because Jordan didn't have one as such....




> Say something about the pros


The most serious competition in the NBA in 1969 was a coin flip. Two first-year teams -- the 16-66 Phoenix Suns and the 27-55 Milwaukee Bucks -- were the two worst teams in the league, and they flipped for the first pick of the draft. The Suns lost, and the Bucks gained the right to choose Alcindor.

*With Alcindor averaging 28.8 points (second in the NBA) and 14.5 rebounds (third), the Bucks improved to 56-26* and reached the Eastern Division finals before losing to the Knicks.

*The next season was even sweeter. The Bucks had a league-best 66-16 record behind Alcindor, whose sky hook became the most devastating weapon in the game, and newly acquired Oscar Robertson. Alcindor led the NBA with a 31.7 scoring average and was voted MVP. The Bucks didn't stop there, cruising to the NBA title by winning 12 of 14 playoff games. After the Bucks swept the Baltimore Bullets in four games, Alcindor was voted the Finals MVP.*

A Muslim since his college days, Alcindor legally changed his name to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the fall of 1971. The name change didn't bother his performance as he won his second straight MVP, averaging a league-high 34.8 points.

In 1975, Abdul-Jabbar said Milwaukee was inadequate for his cultural needs. The Bucks traded him to the Lakers for center Elmore Smith, guard Brian Winters and rookie blue chippers Dave Myers and Junior Bridgeman. *Despite LA finishing 40-42 and out of the playoffs, Abdul-Jabbar won his fourth MVP after averaging 27.7 points (second in the league) and leading the NBA with 16.9 rebounds and 4.12 blocks per game.*
There goes that stupid theory that one needs to lead his team to 50 wins to be considered an MVP..

*Abdul-Jabbar, who won his sixth MVP award* in 1980, and rookie guard Magic Johnson led the Lakers to the NBA Finals that season. But after twisting his ankle badly in Game 5, Abdul-Jabbar couldn't make the trip to Philadelphia for Game 6. Moving to center, Johnson put on a "magic" show, scoring 42 points as the Lakers won the first of their five titles in the 1980s. After the game, Magic said for Abdul-Jabbar and all of America to hear, "We know you're hurting, big fella, but we want you to get up and do some dancing tonight!"

On April 5, 1984, Abdul-Jabbar became the league's all-time leading scorer on -- appropriately enough -- a sky hook from 15 feet. The basket gave the goggled and balding center 31,420 points, one more than Wilt Chamberlain scored.

When Abdul-Jabbar retired in 1989 at age 42, his career regular-season numbers were 24.6 points per game, 11.2 rebounds, 3.6 blocked shots and a .559 shooting percentage. He was first-team all-league 10 times and second-team 5 times. He also holds NBA records for most seasons of 1,000 or more points (19), most minutes played (57,446), and most field goals (15,837). 


Honors: 
Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (1995); 
NBA champion (1971, '80, '82, '85, '87, '88); 6 times
NBA MVP (1971, '72, '74, '76, '77, '80); 6 times
10-time All-NBA First Team; Five-time All-NBA Second Team; Five-time All-Defensive First Team; Six-time
All-Defensive Second Team; 19-time All-Star; One
of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996).


ever hear of Public Enemy??? 

They had a song called, 

DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE... I believe they were talking about ESPN...


----------



## Minstrel

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife said:


> oh no, so tell me why a frosh team led by Alcindor beat the mighty Bruins varsity roster when the varsity squad was supposed to be the best team in the NATION???
> 
> But I guess 3 national championships in a row is a yearly occurance, I mean, all it takes is a real tall center with a great shot right???
> 
> Wrong, there was a reason why Kareems teams great, because of Kareem...Who else turned around an organization they way he did with the Bucks in ONE season and winning the whole shebang in his SECOND SEASON???
> 
> Its easy right, simply because Kareem was tall and had a great shot...
> 
> uh, no....


I didn't understand a word of what you just said.


----------



## unluckyseventeen

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

This thread keeps getting more ridiculous as it continues. You can't expect anybody to listen to what you have to say if you don't listen to anybody else. 

You've officially convinced everyone here that does not agree with you that Jordan is better than what they thought before, and the greatest player to ever play. You've officially done the complete opposite of what you set out to do. Perhaps you should learn to present an argument rather than spouting non-sensical, unrelated topics, then attacking people that make a counter point, then continuing with material and poor arguments that have nothing to do with being the greatest NBA player. Not to mention you didn't bring up any logical supporting evidence other than one single article you found that put you into a rage.

I know what you're trying to accomplish, but I can tell you that you're not doing a very good job of it.


Once again, how is a 7-foot center not going to dominate high school and collegiate games? Especially high school. Ridiculous that you'd even bring it up. No matter how many 6'5 guys you throw at a 7-footer, him dominating them is not any more impressive either way. You can't even logically answer that, so I'm considering that entire portion of your argument void.

I'd still take Wilt over Kareem, by the way. Both of them had very large physical advantages over 99% of their opponents, but Wilt did it better. Jordan wasn't taller or stronger than the entire league, just more skilled. Care to debate statistics? Or are you going to find another article and bold a few lines of it for me?


----------



## Mike Goodman

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



kflo said:


> out of the 1000+ 20 ppg seasons EVER, jordan's '02 season ranks the WORST EVER in terms of scoring effiency (relative to league average). worst ever.


How is this statistic arrived at? Who are next-worst?


----------



## Phoenix32

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

No he isn't the best forever, cause we can't say who is the best forever... It is really hard question, cause playaz are different, they have their own advantages and disadvantages, tehri all played in different time, so we can't know like how Bird would play in these times... It is really hard... O I would say that Jordan is one of the best, but not the best...


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



unluckyseventeen said:


> *Once again, how is a 7-foot center not going to dominate high school and collegiate games? * Especially high school. Ridiculous that you'd even bring it up. No matter how many 6'5 guys you throw at a 7-footer, him dominating them is not any more impressive either way. You can't even logically answer that, so I'm considering that entire portion of your argument void.


Hint: check out all the NBA players from history who were 7-footers AND played both in higschool.
Then list the ones who 3 NCAA titles.
Oh, just for the heck of it, list also the guys that made the NCAA change the basketball rules.

And the answer, between hundreds of 7-footers, would be...


----------



## Pistolballer

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

when did the Bulls pick up Toni Kukoc? I've always thought he coulda been a much bigger player than he was had he had more of role in the NBA. Without Pippen (which woulda been a huge blow) I could see the bulls getting at least 1 championship. I really, really hate Jordan.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



kflo said:


> it's also pretty naive, imo, to assume that without pippen some other all-star comes along to take his place. hakeem, ewing and robinson all went almost their entire prime careers without a single all-star teammate. a different question is what happens if scottie teams with one of them instead of mj.
> 
> this isn't any slight of mj. everyone needs to be surrounded by some talent to be successful. again, you could pose the same question to any player and they likely don't win. but it's also a bit foolish to not acknowledge how circumstances contributed to our current view of mj (or magic or bird or just about any other multiple winner).


What?

Please The Knicks had a rookie of the year player in Mark Jackson who averaged 11 assists a game, I believe during Ewings 2nd season in the league. Other stand out players back on the 80s,90s Knicks were Gerald Wilkins, Charles Oakley, Rod Strickland, Johnny Newman, Kiki Vandeweghe, John Starks, Xavier Mcdaniel, Anthony Mason, Greg Anthony, Derek Harper, and Allan Houston. Ewing had a good supporting cast around him since his 3rd season in the NBA when the Knicks won their division. Pitino days anyone ?

Robinson also almost his entire career with out a good supporting cast ? Terry Cummings, Sean Elliott, Rod Strickland, Willie Anderson, Vernon Maxwell, Avery Johnson, Dale Ellis, Vinny Del *****, Dennis Rodman, Tim Duncan, J.R. Reid, Chuck Person, Dominique Wilkins, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr and Malik Rose.

And Obviously Hakeem was part of the twin towers coming into the NBA playing along side Ralph Sampson. (Hakeem/Sampson played 4 seasons together) Other teammates, Rodney McCray, John Lucas, Lewis Lloyd, Sleepy Floyd, Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, Buck Johnson, Matt Bullard (Great big 3 shooter), Carl Herrera, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Kevin Willis, Mario Elie, Scottie Pippen and Cuttino Mobley to name a few.

Let's not pretend that the Rockets, Spurs, and Knicks were not deep with talent during the late 80s, and through the 90s That would be wrong.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

This is what i'd call a "cheating" post:



23AJ said:


> Please The Knicks had a rookie of the year player in Mark Jackson who averaged 11 assists a game, I believe during Ewings 2nd season in the league.


Action Jackson could neither score nor defend. 



> Other stand out players back on the 80s,90s Knicks were Gerald Wilkins, Charles Oakley, Rod Strickland, Johnny Newman, Kiki Vandeweghe, John Starks, Xavier Mcdaniel, Anthony Mason, Greg Anthony, Derek Harper, and Allan Houston. Ewing had a good supporting cast around him since his 3rd season in the NBA when the Knicks won their division. Pitino days anyone ?


"stand out players"? Are you kidding me? I wonder why you didn't put charles Smith on the list.
Let me direct yo to the truth:
1- Gerald Wilkins was a scrub and couldn't really do anything except for the dunk or the layup;
2- Charles Oakley was good;
3- Rod Strickland's tenure with the Knicks was brief enough;
4- Johnny Newman was a scrub;
5- Kiki was way over-the-hill when he joined the Knicks. In his prime, his offense would excuse the fact that he didn't know how to defend. In the Knicks, he was embarassing weak;
6- Starks was a scrub who got heralded as a great thing simply because he was the only one who would take shots (besides P-Ew);
7- X-Man was done when he joined the Knicks;
8- Mason could rebound and defend, yes;
9- Greg Anthony was a scrub;
10- Derek Harper was done when he joined the Knicks;
11- Allan Houston was a mediocre Reghioe Miller.

Is this the supporting cast adequate for P-Ew to contend with the Bulls? 



> Robinson also almost his entire career with out a good supporting cast ? Terry Cummings, Sean Elliott, Rod Strickland, Willie Anderson, Vernon Maxwell, Avery Johnson, Dale Ellis, Vinny Del *****, Dennis Rodman, Tim Duncan, J.R. Reid, Chuck Person, Dominique Wilkins, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr and Malik Rose.


Robinson played in the West.
After the Celtics and the Pistons went down, the East was a cakewalk for the Bulls.



> And Obviously Hakeem was part of the twin towers coming into the NBA playing along side Ralph Sampson. (Hakeem/Sampson played 4 seasons together) Other teammates, Rodney McCray, John Lucas, Lewis Lloyd, Sleepy Floyd, Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, Buck Johnson, Matt Bullard (Great big 3 shooter), Carl Herrera, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Kevin Willis, Mario Elie, Scottie Pippen and Cuttino Mobley to name a few.


Now i know you are just checking rosters on the net and putting them up. 
The Twin Towers lost to the Celtics.
The Smith/Maxwell/Thorpe/Hakeem teams won 2 championships.



> Let's not pretend that the Rockets, Spurs, and Knicks were not deep with talent during the late 80s, and through the 90s That would be wrong.


They were not. And YOU are wrong.


----------



## da bully

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

i think the main reason that people dont regard kareem as the goat is because in his prime with players like dr j, gilmore, barry and so forth in another league. kareem could not win a championship. and while he won 6 championships remember, in the 70s he had only 1 to his credit and that with the big o and he didnt win again until magic came into the league. and that span was about 8 years. then on those laker teams he was probably a little bit better than magic in 1980, second fiddle to magic in 82 and 85, then the third best player behind worthy and magic in 87 and 88. meanwhuile jordan was the best player on all 6 of his championship teams.

and how are you going to refer to amateaur athletics as a benchmark to professional? that is the most rediculus example ive ever heard of. since your are a sports fan i know that youve heard that you can take the worse pro team and pit them against the best colligate team and the pro team would win hands down. not to mention that jordan wasnt really serious about basketball as a high school player. he was more into baseball. then, when he went to nc he played in a structured environment. remember they said that dean smith was the only person to hold jordan to under 20 points. so please be fair. in your assesments of both jordan and jabaar.


----------



## kflo

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



23AJ said:


> What?
> 
> Please The Knicks had a rookie of the year player in Mark Jackson who averaged 11 assists a game, I believe during Ewings 2nd season in the league. Other stand out players back on the 80s,90s Knicks were Gerald Wilkins, Charles Oakley, Rod Strickland, Johnny Newman, Kiki Vandeweghe, John Starks, Xavier Mcdaniel, Anthony Mason, Greg Anthony, Derek Harper, and Allan Houston. Ewing had a good supporting cast around him since his 3rd season in the NBA when the Knicks won their division. Pitino days anyone ?
> 
> Robinson also almost his entire career with out a good supporting cast ? Terry Cummings, Sean Elliott, Rod Strickland, Willie Anderson, Vernon Maxwell, Avery Johnson, Dale Ellis, Vinny Del *****, Dennis Rodman, Tim Duncan, J.R. Reid, Chuck Person, Dominique Wilkins, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr and Malik Rose.
> 
> And Obviously Hakeem was part of the twin towers coming into the NBA playing along side Ralph Sampson. (Hakeem/Sampson played 4 seasons together) Other teammates, Rodney McCray, John Lucas, Lewis Lloyd, Sleepy Floyd, Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, Buck Johnson, Matt Bullard (Great big 3 shooter), Carl Herrera, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Kevin Willis, Mario Elie, Scottie Pippen and Cuttino Mobley to name a few.
> 
> Let's not pretend that the Rockets, Spurs, and Knicks were not deep with talent during the late 80s, and through the 90s That would be wrong.


name a single one of those players who would be even a reasonable replacement for scottie pippen. and i specifically said they went their entire "primes", to exclude guys like barkley, duncan, pippen, allan houston, from the discussion. drexler is easily the best player on the list, and his prime essentially ended after the repeat when injuries took their toll (essentially 1 title season paired with hakeem). some of the names on that list are simply lol names.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



da bully said:


> i think the main reason that people dont regard kareem as the goat is because in his prime with players like dr j, gilmore, barry and so forth in another league. kareem could not win a championship. and while he won 6 championships remember, *in the 70s he had only 1 to his credit and that with the big o and he didnt win again until magic came into the league. and that span was about 8 years. *then on those laker teams he was probably a little bit better than magic in 1980, second fiddle to magic in 82 and 85, then the third best player behind worthy and magic in 87 and 88. meanwhuile jordan was the best player on all 6 of his championship teams.
> 
> and how are you going to refer to amateaur athletics as a benchmark to professional? that is the most rediculus example ive ever heard of. since your are a sports fan i know that youve heard that you can take the worse pro team and pit them against the best colligate team and the pro team would win hands down. not to mention that jordan wasnt really serious about basketball as a high school player. he was more into baseball. then, when he went to nc he played in a structured environment. remember they said that dean smith was the only person to hold jordan to under 20 points. so please be fair. in your assesments of both jordan and jabaar.


Jordan's first 7 years in the league: two MVPs, one championship;
Kareem's first 7 years in the league: four MVPs, one championship.


----------



## LameR

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

I think the original poster is clinging onto Alcindor's HS and college stats a bit too tightly. I thought HS and college were places for players to prepare themselves for the NBA. Sure, what Alcindor did in both of those areas was and is very impressive, but just becaue Jordan didn't do the same in leagues designed to prepare players for the next level doesn't mean Alcindor > Jordan.


----------



## da bully

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



PauloCatarino said:


> Jordan's first 7 years in the league: two MVPs, one championship;
> Kareem's first 7 years in the league: four MVPs, one championship.


i think your taking my post out of context paulo, im talking about their pro careers as a whole. and the fact is that jordan on all six of his championships was the #1 guy, meanwhile kareem while in his prime won one championship as the best player on his team. factor in that alot of the great players of that era (the 70s) played in the aba and then i see why everone says that the nba of the seventies was not that good. how many mvps could jordan have won if lets say magic and malone were playing in another league. and the reason i ask this question is because jordan in his prime played against the best kareem in his prime played against some of the best.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

the answer is easy .

zero.

singular talents dont win without alot of help.

Magic needed Kareem , worthy, scott and other talents like AC green norm nixon and bob mcadoo , Bird needed mchale parish, DJ and other all star talents who came and went like maxwell, ainge and walton, that MJ could get by with really just Pippen and either grant or rodman shows how great both pippen and MJ really were .

before Pippen matured into a full fledged star the team was a pretender, they weren't a serious contender and with just jordan they never would have become true title contenders without some serious all star caliber help....probably several guys to be the long term contenders he turned out to be.


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



Da Grinch said:


> Magic needed Kareem


Um more like the other way around :biggrin: but yeah no superstar can carry his team to the promise land by himself. Unless you are playing 1 on 1, basketball is a team sport. The only teams I can think of that won without really a 2nd all star level player is SA in 2003 and Houston in 1994. David Robinson was in his twilight and Parker was only in his 2nd season still inexperienced and far from being considered an all star level player. The Rocket's championship run in 94 was incredible. It can be said that all the teams they beat looked better on 'paper'.


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Diable said:


> David Thompson was a better college basketball player than Alcindor and that's all there is to it.Your argument is infantile and really not worthy of a response.Just say that you hate Jordan and you can't compose a rational argument for why Kareem was better.College is college and the NBA is not.


Are you being real?

Thompson was great and I once read that he was the player Jordan most wanted to emulate growing up but Kareem belongs in the trinity of college greats after the 60s which includes Walton and Oscar.


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



GrandKenyon6 said:


> I'll take Wilt over Kareem. Let's not forget that Kareem played practically his entire career with the two greatest point guards of all-time.


I would take Wilt over Kareem as well but Wilt played with many great players as well. As a Warrior his teammates included Arizin (who was like the Kobe of his day), Gola (HOF), Thurmond (HOF), and Guy Rodgers (who was an assists machine). As a Sixer he played with Greer (HOF), Cunningham (HOF), and Walker. As a Laker he played with Elgin (top 15), West (top 15 maybe top 10), Goodrich (HOF). So I think that is seven NBA top 50 players. Kareem also had a period in his career when he neither played with Oscar or Magic but he also didn't win jack in that time. IMO I take Magic over Wilt and Kareem. Yup I said it. Write it down. :wink:


----------



## numb555

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

The question should be how many Championship will Kobe win with Odom?


----------



## Dornado

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

Scottie was a huge difference maker... I'm a die hard Bulls fan and loved MJ like the rest, but it just couldn't have been done without Pippen.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

Since we're dealing in hypotheticals, and I'm a Rockets fan, I'm going to say that the correct answer is 15 because Houston changed their mind at the last moment and traded Sampson for the two first round picks that the Bulls offered.


----------



## SeaNet

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Gilgamesh said:


> Are you being real?
> 
> Thompson was great and I once read that he was the player Jordan most wanted to emulate growing up but Kareem belongs in the trinity of college greats after the 60s which includes Walton and Oscar.


Bill Walton didn't really stand out from the crowd at all in 1960s college basketball, truth be told.


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Puhleeeze, Walton got so much press people had already crowned him an equal to Russell, Wilt, and Kareem before he ever played a game as a pro. He was the main man on the most dominant college team ever, even more dominant than Kareem's (arguably with better supporting cast). 

Better to say Oscar didn't stand out as much, partially because he was playing SF, it was after he went pro and they moved him to PG that his true genius stood out, and partially because he played college at a time where there were really big names playing against him, Jerry lucas, Jerry West, etc. etc.


----------



## SeaNet

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> Puhleeeze, Walton got so much press people had already crowned him an equal to Russell, Wilt, and Kareem before he ever played a game as a pro. He was the main man on the most dominant college team ever, even more dominant than Kareem's (arguably with better supporting cast).
> 
> Better to say Oscar didn't stand out as much, partially because he was playing SF, it was after he went pro and they moved him to PG that his true genius stood out, and partially because he played college at a time where there were really big names playing against him, Jerry lucas, Jerry West, etc. etc.


I 100% stand by my statement that Walton did not stand out from the crowd in 1960s college basketball. Its almost like he wasn't even on the court.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Blink4 said:


> Jordan isnt the only player to play into his 40s. Kareem did this as well, and although he was playing with some great players he still put up solid numbers in limited minutes. I'm not saying anything about who between them is the better player, I'm just sick of people riding Jordans jock because he scored 20ppg when he was 39.


In their 40's they're no longer really comparable. Jordan's averages are better then Kareems across the board by a decent margin.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Gilgamesh said:


> Are you being real?
> 
> Thompson was great and I once read that he was the player Jordan most wanted to emulate growing up but Kareem belongs in the trinity of college greats after the 60s which includes Walton and Oscar.


Try asking someone who saw both of them play in college.I'll repeat it once and for all Thompson was the GOAT in college and this is the consensus opinion among those who actually saw him play.I'm willing to bet that John Wooden would agree.

Bill Walton isn't even top 15,and anyone who thinks so is crazier than him


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



23AJ said:


> In their 40's they're no longer really comparable. Jordan's averages are better then Kareems across the board by a decent margin.


Yeas, they were not comparable: Jordan was making a spetacle of himself; Kareem was starting for a championship-contending team.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



PauloCatarino said:


> Yeas, they were not comparable: Jordan was making a spetacle of himself; Kareem was starting for a championship-contending team.


You're trying to compare the Lakers to the Wizards ? Now that's funny.


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

That's Paulo for you.

Jordan at 40 was more productive than Kareem at 40. Anyone who isn't biased could see that.


----------



## knicksfan89

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

phil jackson is now a well deserved hall of famer as is roy williams well done to the pair


----------



## magohaydz

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



knicksfan89 said:


> phil jackson is now a well deserved hall of famer as is roy williams well done to the pair



whats your point?


----------



## magohaydz

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

I say 6 - because its ludicrous to assume that they wouldnt have found anyone if Pippen wasnt in the team. And even if that replacement wasnt a SF, perhaps it was a better C. - for example, Hakeem or Robinson. I think they are about the same calibre as Scottie, and probably quite a fair swap. 

Bulls - Pippen + Robinson = 6 rings.


----------



## Sifin

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

If the Bulls never replaced Pippen and kept everyone else the same (Rodman, Grant, Kukoc, etc.), I still think Jordan would have gotten one title in there somewhere. But certainly no where near 6. However, had Kukoc been replaced with a reasonably good player, like say a Reggie Miller, I could definitely see them winning 2 or 3 titles.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

zero like this 0


----------



## kflo

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



magohaydz said:


> I say 6 - because its ludicrous to assume that they wouldnt have found anyone if Pippen wasnt in the team. And even if that replacement wasnt a SF, perhaps it was a better C. - for example, Hakeem or Robinson. I think they are about the same calibre as Scottie, and probably quite a fair swap.
> 
> Bulls - Pippen + Robinson = 6 rings.


teams could go decades looking for a single player of the caliber of jordan, hakeem, robinsion, or even pippen, but you think it's ludicrous that 2 of them don't end up on the same team?


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Where to start . . . .

Please back up your statement about Walton. I was there during both Walton's college days and Thompson's college days and while Thompson was flashier, Walton was more hyped (and better -- though it's hard to quantify either since Walton was one of those players whose stats underplay their value whereas Thompson's main value was explosive scoring). But, Walton was the undisputed great player on maybe the greatest college team of all time. Attempting to compare the impact of the two. It was a huge upset when his team lost ONCE during the regular season, the three straight titles (Kareem only won 2 of 3) were almost expected. 

Thompson's teams weren't close to that level of dominance despite having, in addition to Thompson, the number 3 picks in the draft his year (Marvin Webster) and another player who was drafted later but made contributions (Monte Towe). Walton's two high-rated teammates were Dave Meyers (2nd the year after Walton, an injury destroyed career) and Jamaal Wilkes (picked at #11 but who went on to a very nice NBA career). One must also note that Richard Washington and Sven Nater (the backups on Walton's team) for UCLA went on to solid careers though Nater almost never played in college so he can't really be considered here.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



magohaydz said:


> I say 6 - because its ludicrous to assume that they wouldnt have found anyone if Pippen wasnt in the team. And even if that replacement wasnt a SF, perhaps it was a better C. - for example, Hakeem or Robinson. I think they are about the same calibre as Scottie, and probably quite a fair swap.
> 
> Bulls - Pippen + Robinson = 6 rings.


Haha, how would they get Hakeem or DRob?


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Second . . . 

Yes, Jordan was more of a dominant player at age 40 than Kareem. But . . . Kareem at age 40 was much more valuable to his team. Kareem was still a key piece of a championship team providing post scoring and some shot blocking to the Magic led Lakers. Jordan came back with a rebuilding Wizards team and tried to take a team that was just starting to develop and make it a win-now team (a) trading Richard Hamilton for Jerry Stackhouse (b) dominating the ball so that the other team options tended to get frozen out (he wasn't that mobile anymore but mainly relied on his size/strength to post up effectively or jacked up a relatively ineffective jump shot and (c) took out his frustrations on the Wizards young players, particularly straight out of HS Kwame Brown, destroying the confidence of a player projected to be the future of the franchise (still evident in Kwame's very hesitant offensive play v. Kwame's superior offense early in the season his freshman year) and making sure that Kwame would be looking to leave Washington at the first opportunity (though we did get Caron Butler who is terrific). On the whole, Jordan was a net minus to the Wizards on the court; he was, however, a big boost at the ticket office so for the franchise, might be considered a positive or a negative. Kareem, however, was clearly a positive.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Diable said:


> Try asking someone who saw both of them play in college.I'll repeat it once and for all Thompson was the GOAT in college and this is the consensus opinion among those who actually saw him play.I'm willing to bet that John Wooden would agree.
> 
> Bill Walton isn't even top 15,and anyone who thinks so is crazier than him


you have a source for this? i mean, i say the consesnsus is that alcindor was the best. 

http://robots.cnnsi.com/basketball/college/1999/allcentury/alcindor/

see towards bottom for espn's 20 Greatest College Basketball Players
http://www.pressboxonline.com/story.cfm?ID=1514

espn and cnnsi have alcindor #1. i have no idea where you'd get consensus #1 of david thompson, great as he was. 

and bill walton, a 3 time national player of the year, isn't top 15?


----------



## Spriggan

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



Brandname said:


> Haha, how would they get Hakeem or DRob?


Because if the end result isn't MJ winning 6 rings, the universe will collapse onto itself.


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

I will agree that Alcindor was considered better than Walton, not that David Thompson was. 

Here is the ESPN ratings kflo talks about:
ESPN did an excellent job with its "20 Greatest College Basketball Players" show recently. It went like this: 1. Lew Alcindor, 2. Bill Walton, 3. Bill Russell, 4. Oscar Robertson, 5. Wilt Chamberlain, 6. Pete Maravich, 7. Larry Bird, 8. David Thompson, 9. Jerry Lucas, 10. Patrick Ewing, 11. Jerry West, 12. Elvin Hayes, 13. Ralph Sampson, 14. Christian Laettner, 15. Magic Johnson, 16. Michael Jordan, 17. George Mikan, 18. Tom Gola, 19. Tim Duncan, 20. Bill Bradley.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> Second . . .
> 
> Yes, Jordan was more of a dominant player at age 40 than Kareem. But . . . Kareem at age 40 was much more valuable to his team. Kareem was still a key piece of a championship team providing post scoring and some shot blocking to the Magic led Lakers. Jordan came back with a rebuilding Wizards team and tried to take a team that was just starting to develop and make it a win-now team (a) trading Richard Hamilton for Jerry Stackhouse (b) dominating the ball so that the other team options tended to get frozen out (he wasn't that mobile anymore but mainly relied on his size/strength to post up effectively or jacked up a relatively ineffective jump shot and (c) took out his frustrations on the Wizards young players, particularly straight out of HS Kwame Brown, destroying the confidence of a player projected to be the future of the franchise (still evident in Kwame's very hesitant offensive play v. Kwame's superior offense early in the season his freshman year) and making sure that Kwame would be looking to leave Washington at the first opportunity (though we did get Caron Butler who is terrific). On the whole, Jordan was a net minus to the Wizards on the court; he was, however, a big boost at the ticket office so for the franchise, might be considered a positive or a negative. Kareem, however, was clearly a positive.


And yet despite all this -- amazingly -- he somehow managed to average 25.2 pts/6.3 reb/5.2 ast/43.4% FG through the ASG and had his team, who had won just 19 games the entire previous season, in the 6th spot in the East with a 26-20 record before he hurt his knee. Go figure.


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

Why does this matter? He DID win 6 rings. Kobe hasn't and likely won't. And its his own fault. End of discussion.


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



xray said:


> I think the point's been made - I too have a problem with "fastest man" or "strongest man" because of the fact it's impossible to take the entire world's population into account.
> 
> But these are two different players, with two different skill sets who play two different positions - how exactly do you guage their greatness when compared to each other?



i actually agree with you for the most part on this one, however, the game of basketball dictates a premieum on height. put kareem and jordan on the same squad, and jordan would have to defer to kareem, i don't care who is coaching (we saw what phil had to do with an earily similarly dominant big and explosive wing). it would be foolish not to exploit match-ups in the paint that give you much higher percentage looks, closer to the rim. however, come 4th quarter, especially towards the end, we all know whose time it would be to shine . . .

big men dominate the game of basketball. i think that's why jordan is so annointed: b/c he is an annomaly. before him (and probably since him) no team has been as dominant w/o a dominant post presence.

and sadly, although he had some very bright nights as a wizard, that wasn't so long ago that we ALL have rosey memories of it. most nights were not so special. what was special is that jordan was still playing, often with the fire of old, but less often came the same results. once again, when the results aren't there (winning) guys tout stats, and when the numbers aren't there, guys scream about results. odd no?


----------



## Mateo

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

on second thought I retract my previous statement. i looked at the 96 roster and it was just brutally terrible. I think it's weird that only 3 players played 30+ mpg.


----------



## Minstrel

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



magohaydz said:


> I say 6 - because its ludicrous to assume that they wouldnt have found anyone if Pippen wasnt in the team. And even if that replacement wasnt a SF, perhaps it was a better C. - for example, Hakeem or Robinson.


That's why Kevin Garnett's lack of titles is so shameful. Having had so many Olajuwons and Robinsons for teammates, he _still_ doesn't have a ring!


----------



## Mateo

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

olajuwon and jordan on the same team would have been incredible, but impossible. the moment they were drafted the same year, it was a lock that they would stay with the same team until they were old and washed up (which happened).


----------



## Mateo

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

Ok, here's a fair question. Players taken after Pippen in the 87 draft include Kevin Johnson and Reggie Miller. What if they had been Bulls?


----------



## f22egl

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

How many rings would Jordan have won with Shaq?


----------



## Minstrel

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



Mateo said:


> Ok, here's a fair question. Players taken after Pippen in the 87 draft include Kevin Johnson and Reggie Miller. What if they had been Bulls?


Well, the Bulls drafted Polynice and dealt him for Pippen, on draft day. Had there been no Pippen to trade for, it's entirely possible that they just kept Polynice.


----------



## Avalanche

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



Minstrel said:


> Well, the Bulls drafted Polynice and dealt him for Pippen, on draft day. Had there been no Pippen to trade for, it's entirely possible that they just kept Polynice.


realistically your right, they may have just kept polynice.
really wasnt much in that draft behind pippen, outside of reggie who plays the same position as mike..

kevin johnson sure as hell would have been interesting though

way too many hypotheticals in this


----------



## Avalanche

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



f22egl said:


> How many rings would Jordan have won with Shaq?


all of them


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

everyone is over analyzing, its a simple question that says "without pippen" not without pippen plus add the player of your choice. Its hard to say though cause you cant predict what he would of done without him unless that was the case, but not having your #2 option usually doesnt equal a championship for a team. But all Jordan fans automatically assume that he was good enough to win at least without pippen, but we'll never know.


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Diable said:


> Try asking someone who saw both of them play in college.I'll repeat it once and for all Thompson was the GOAT in college and this is the consensus opinion among those who actually saw him play.I'm willing to bet that John Wooden would agree.
> 
> Bill Walton isn't even top 15,and anyone who thinks so is crazier than him


So you saw them play? 

Every ranking I have seen has listed Kareem, Walton, and Oscar higher than Thompson and these rankings are done by people who saw them play.

Also that win over UCLA is overhyped. Yes Thompson played great going by his stats in that game (28 pts, 6 rebs, 10 asts) but so did Walton (29 pts, 18 rebs, 4 asts) and the game was double overtime loss by only three points.


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> Second . . .
> 
> Yes, Jordan was more of a dominant player at age 40 than Kareem. But . . . Kareem at age 40 was much more valuable to his team. Kareem was still a key piece of a championship team providing post scoring and some shot blocking to the Magic led Lakers. Jordan came back with a rebuilding Wizards team and tried to take a team that was just starting to develop and make it a win-now team (a) trading Richard Hamilton for Jerry Stackhouse (b) dominating the ball so that the other team options tended to get frozen out (he wasn't that mobile anymore but mainly relied on his size/strength to post up effectively or jacked up a relatively ineffective jump shot and (c) took out his frustrations on the Wizards young players, particularly straight out of HS Kwame Brown, destroying the confidence of a player projected to be the future of the franchise (still evident in Kwame's very hesitant offensive play v. Kwame's superior offense early in the season his freshman year) and making sure that Kwame would be looking to leave Washington at the first opportunity (though we did get Caron Butler who is terrific). On the whole, Jordan was a net minus to the Wizards on the court; he was, however, a big boost at the ticket office so for the franchise, might be considered a positive or a negative. Kareem, however, was clearly a positive.


Kareem didn't have to carry his team when he was 39 or 40 as much as Jordan did. Kareem became like a role player. In 2001-2002 Jordan was the man for the Wiz. In 2002-2003 Jordan was obviously not his old self anymore or even near the Jordan pre-knee surgery the year before but he still carried a lot of the load. 

In 2002 before his surgery Jordan was top 5 MVP candidate. I think people forget how crap his teammates were. We are talking a starting 5 of Jahidi White, Laetnerr, Rip, and Whitney. This is as bad as some of TMac's Orlando teams but before injury Jordan led Wiz to 26-21 and 7 game improvement already over last year by all star break and if you discount the Wiz bad start 24-12 in their last 36 games before all star break. Jordan was also playing at much higher level. In January, Jordan was averaging 26.8-6.5-4.6. But after all star break he played awhile hurt before he decided to get surgery. If Jordan's knee didn't finally catch up with his age the Wiz would most likely make playoffs and who knows how good Jordan's stats would be since he was on pace for 25-5-5 by all star break.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Gilgamesh said:


> Kareem didn't have to carry his team when he was 39 or 40 as much as Jordan did. Kareem became like a role player. In 2001-2002 Jordan was the man for the Wiz. In 2002-2003 Jordan was obviously not his old self anymore or even near the Jordan pre-knee surgery the year before but he still carried a lot of the load.
> 
> *In 2002 before his surgery Jordan was top 5 MVP candidate*. I think people forget how crap his teammates were. We are talking a starting 5 of Jahidi White, Laetnerr, Rip, and Whitney. This is as bad as some of TMac's Orlando teams but before injury Jordan led Wiz to 26-21 and 7 game improvement already over last year by all star break and if you discount the Wiz bad start 24-12 in their last 36 games before all star break. Jordan was also playing at much higher level. In January, Jordan was averaging 26.8-6.5-4.6. But after all star break he played awhile hurt before he decided to get surgery. If Jordan's knee didn't finally catch up with his age the Wiz would most likely make playoffs and who knows how good Jordan's stats would be since he was on pace for 25-5-5 by all star break.


Now i've read it all...


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



PauloCatarino said:


> Now i've read it all...


He actually was considered as a top 5 candidate that year *before* his surgery.

The only player I would vote before Jordan at that time was Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, and Kidd. TMac did not play his best ball until after all star break. If Jordan finished the season at the same pace as what he did by all star break he would have 25-5-5 season and Wiz would have won 45 games which is a 26 game improvement over previous season. He would definitely be top 5 MVP candidate at season's end as well if that was the case.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Gilgamesh said:


> He actually was considered as a top 5 candidate that year *before* his surgery.


Link me.


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



PauloCatarino said:


> Link me.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/marty_burns/news/2002/10/31/burns_jordan/

Doesn't say top 5 but mentions Jordan as a MVP candidate at midseason which basically equates to top 5.


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Here is another article mentioning Jordan as a leading MVP candidate:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2002/02/22/nets-wizards020221.html


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Gilgamesh said:


> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/marty_burns/news/2002/10/31/burns_jordan/
> 
> Doesn't say top 5 but mentions Jordan as a MVP candidate at midseason which basically equates to top 5.





> This is what I envisioned it would be like," Jordan said of his new role as supporting star.
> 
> Michael Jordan, Sixth Man?


When was the last time the sixth man for a woefull franchise made top-5 MVP voting?


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



PauloCatarino said:


> When was the last time the sixth man for a woefull franchise made top-5 MVP voting?


READ IT PROPERLY. 

Your MJ hate has even blinded you of your reading ability.

_That’s exactly what happened last year, of course. Jordan was moving along nicely in his Comeback II, living up to his promise to make the woeful Wizards a playoff team. Though he wasn’t soaring to the basket, he was still scoring, dishing and playing enough good defense to make him a midseason MVP candidate._


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Gilgamesh said:


> READ IT PROPERLY.


Please don't shout...



> Your MJ hate has even blinded you of your reading ability.


Nice one...



> _That’s exactly what happened last year, of course. Jordan was moving along nicely in his Comeback II, living up to his promise to make the woeful Wizards a playoff team. Though he wasn’t soaring to the basket, he was still scoring, dishing and playing enough good defense to make him a midseason MVP candidate._


Gil, you underestimate me. From reading that article am i supposed to forget what Jordan said about his role in the Wiz and how he was coming back for his "love of the game"? Am i to forget that Jordan couldn't stand being on the bench and made Collins start him? Am i to forget that some Wizards players chasticed Jordan's eager for exposure in the detriment of team evolution? Am i to forget that Collins wqas a puppet and (IIRC) has never coached qan NBA team again? Am i to forget that Jordan got so much unwanted that Abe Polin fired his ***?

You can put up as many reports you'd like about MJ being an MVP contender when playing with the Wizards. I'll call any of them writers a liar.


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



PauloCatarino said:


> Please don't shout...
> 
> 
> 
> Nice one...
> 
> 
> 
> Gil, you underestimate me. From reading that article am i supposed to forget what Jordan said about his role in the Wiz and how he was coming back for his "love of the game"? Am i to forget that Jordan couldn't stand being on the bench and made Collins start him? Am i to forget that some Wizards players chasticed Jordan's eager for exposure in the detriment of team evolution? Am i to forget that Collins wqas a puppet and (IIRC) has never coached qan NBA team again? Am i to forget that Jordan got so much unwanted that Abe Polin fired his ***?
> 
> You can put up as many reports you'd like about MJ being an MVP contender when playing with the Wizards. I'll call any of them writers a liar.


Your hate has truly blinded you. If you watched NBA in 2002 Jordan was considered a MVP candidate. You can call everybody a liar as much as you want. You asked me for proof and there it is. 

I know many posters talk crap but I don't and you try to call me out on it. Nice try. I am not arguing with you about Jordan's character issues. All I'm saying is that by all star break Jordan was considered a MVP candidate by many people and his on the court production and the Wiz improvement put him there despite of whatever character issues you hold against Jordan.

Here is another interesting article:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/marty_burns/news/2002/05/07/burns_jordan/

As much as Jordan was unwanted by the end of his tenure with the Wiz, I bet Poulin, the Wiz, and the league sure loved the amount of money they made during Jordan's comeback.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Gilgamesh said:


> Your hate has truly blinded you. If you watched NBA in 2002 Jordan was considered a MVP candidate. You can call everybody a liar as much as you want. You asked me for proof and there it is.
> 
> I know many posters talk crap but I don't and you try to call me out on it. Nice try. I am not arguing with you about Jordan's character issues. All I'm saying is that by all star break Jordan was considered a MVP candidate by many people and his on the court production and the Wiz improvement put him there despite of whatever character issues you hold against Jordan.


Gil, you know i loves ya, but you are dead wrong in this.

I'll start with the obvious:
You said In "2002 before his surgery Jordan was top 5 MVP candidate".

well, in 2001-2002, Jordan played 60 games. 
Shaq played 67;
Webber played 54;

And this is that year's MVP voting:

1st Max 
Rk Player Place Pts Pts Share G PPG RPG APG 
+--+------------------------+-----+-----+-----+-------+---+----+----+----+
1 Tim Duncan 57 954 1260 0.76 | 82 25.5 12.7 3.7
2 Jason Kidd 45 897 1260 0.71 | 82 14.7 7.3 9.9
3 Shaquille O'Neal 15 696 1260 0.55 | 67 27.2 10.7 3.0
4 Tracy McGrady 7 390 1260 0.31 | 76 25.6 7.9 5.3
5 Kobe Bryant 1 98 1260 0.08 | 80 25.2 5.5 5.5
6 Gary Payton 1 54 1260 0.04 | 82 22.1 4.8 9.0
7 Chris Webber 0 37 1260 0.03 | 54 24.5 10.1 4.8
8 Dirk Nowitzki 0 31 1260 0.02 | 76 23.4 9.9 2.4
9 Allen Iverson 0 29 1260 0.02 | 60 31.4 4.5 5.5
10 Ben Wallace 0 24 1260 0.02 | 80 7.6 13.0 1.4
11 Paul Pierce 0 22 1260 0.02 | 82 26.1 6.9 3.2
12 Kevin Garnett 0 17 1260 0.01 | 81 21.2 12.1 5.2
13 Michael Jordan 0 16 1260 0.01 | 60 22.9 5.7 5.2
14 Steve Nash 0 5 1260 0.00 | 82 17.9 3.1 7.7
15 Jerry Stackhouse 0 3 1260 0.00 | 76 21.4 4.1 5.3
16 Mike Bibby 0 1 1260 0.00 | 80 13.7 2.8 5.0
Elton Brand 0 1 1260 0.00 | 80 18.2 11.6 2.4
Peja Stojakovic 0 1 1260 0.00 | 71 21.2 5.3 2.5
+--+------------------------+-----+-----+-----+-------+---+----+----+----+

Should i say more?


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



PauloCatarino said:


> Gil, you know i loves ya, but you are dead wrong in this.
> 
> I'll start with the obvious:
> You said In "2002 before his surgery Jordan was top 5 MVP candidate".
> 
> well, in 2001-2002, Jordan played 60 games.
> Shaq played 67;
> Webber played 54;
> 
> And this is that year's MVP voting:
> 
> 1st Max
> Rk Player Place Pts Pts Share G PPG RPG APG
> +--+------------------------+-----+-----+-----+-------+---+----+----+----+
> 1 Tim Duncan 57 954 1260 0.76 | 82 25.5 12.7 3.7
> 2 Jason Kidd 45 897 1260 0.71 | 82 14.7 7.3 9.9
> 3 Shaquille O'Neal 15 696 1260 0.55 | 67 27.2 10.7 3.0
> 4 Tracy McGrady 7 390 1260 0.31 | 76 25.6 7.9 5.3
> 5 Kobe Bryant 1 98 1260 0.08 | 80 25.2 5.5 5.5
> 6 Gary Payton 1 54 1260 0.04 | 82 22.1 4.8 9.0
> 7 Chris Webber 0 37 1260 0.03 | 54 24.5 10.1 4.8
> 8 Dirk Nowitzki 0 31 1260 0.02 | 76 23.4 9.9 2.4
> 9 Allen Iverson 0 29 1260 0.02 | 60 31.4 4.5 5.5
> 10 Ben Wallace 0 24 1260 0.02 | 80 7.6 13.0 1.4
> 11 Paul Pierce 0 22 1260 0.02 | 82 26.1 6.9 3.2
> 12 Kevin Garnett 0 17 1260 0.01 | 81 21.2 12.1 5.2
> 13 Michael Jordan 0 16 1260 0.01 | 60 22.9 5.7 5.2
> 14 Steve Nash 0 5 1260 0.00 | 82 17.9 3.1 7.7
> 15 Jerry Stackhouse 0 3 1260 0.00 | 76 21.4 4.1 5.3
> 16 Mike Bibby 0 1 1260 0.00 | 80 13.7 2.8 5.0
> Elton Brand 0 1 1260 0.00 | 80 18.2 11.6 2.4
> Peja Stojakovic 0 1 1260 0.00 | 71 21.2 5.3 2.5
> +--+------------------------+-----+-----+-----+-------+---+----+----+----+
> 
> Should i say more?


Hahahaha. You are hilarious Paulo. Really. I said he was a strong MVP candidate at midseason not end of season. 

Show me the voting *by all star break*. As I said if you watched NBA in 2002 you would know quite a few people commented Jordan being a MVP candidate at *midseason*. I never said Jordan was top 5 candidate by season's end. His injuries and the Wiz's demise dropped him out of serious contention but at midseason he was up there.

It's like Arenas. Earlier in the year he was considered top 3 even #1 but now he is not.

But if Jordan was healthy and could have kept the same statistical pace (and he was improving in January) and the Wiz continued at the same winning pace by season's end he would surely be top 5.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Gilgamesh said:


> Hahahaha. You are hilarious Paulo. Really. I said he was a strong MVP candidate at midseason not end of season.
> 
> Show me the voting *by all star break*. As I said if you watched NBA in 2002 you would know quite a few people commented Jordan being a MVP candidate at *midseason*. I never said Jordan was top 5 candidate by season's end. His injuries and the Wiz's demise dropped him out of serious contention but at midseason he was up there.
> 
> It's like Arenas. Earlier in the year he was considered top 3 even #1 but now he is not.
> 
> But if Jordan was healthy and could have kept the same statistical pace (and he was improving in January) and the Wiz continued at the same winning pace by season's end he would surely be top 5.


I only habe two words to say to you, Gil: TINY ARCHIBALD.


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



PauloCatarino said:


> I only habe two words to say to you, Gil: TINY ARCHIBALD.


:lol: this is why I love ya too Paulo. :rock:


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Gilgamesh said:


> :lol: this is why I love ya too Paulo. :rock:


Hmmm... Interesting...


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



PauloCatarino said:


> Hmmm... Interesting...


:bananallama:

Love and peace ma brotha.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> Second . . .
> 
> Yes, Jordan was more of a dominant player at age 40 than Kareem. But . . . Kareem at age 40 was much more valuable to his team. Kareem was still a key piece of a championship team providing post scoring and some shot blocking to the Magic led Lakers. Jordan came back with a rebuilding Wizards team and tried to take a team that was just starting to develop and make it a win-now team (a) trading Richard Hamilton for Jerry Stackhouse (b) dominating the ball so that the other team options tended to get frozen out (he wasn't that mobile anymore but mainly relied on his size/strength to post up effectively or jacked up a relatively ineffective jump shot and (c) took out his frustrations on the Wizards young players, particularly straight out of HS Kwame Brown, destroying the confidence of a player projected to be the future of the franchise (still evident in Kwame's very hesitant offensive play v. Kwame's superior offense early in the season his freshman year) and making sure that Kwame would be looking to leave Washington at the first opportunity (though we did get Caron Butler who is terrific). On the whole, Jordan was a net minus to the Wizards on the court; he was, however, a big boost at the ticket office so for the franchise, might be considered a positive or a negative. Kareem, however, was clearly a positive.


And at 40 years of age if Jordan was on a Dynasty Championship team (rather then a pathetic Wizards team) (Check the Wizards team record the year before Jordan played) he would of been more valueable then Kareem at 40 years of age on any championship etam because Jordan was a better player then Kareem at 40 years of age. However nice way to try and spin a negative review of Jordan at 40, and pump up Kareems value.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Jordan23Forever said:


> And yet despite all this -- amazingly -- he somehow managed to average 25.2 pts/6.3 reb/5.2 ast/43.4% FG through the ASG and had his team, who had won just 19 games the entire previous season, in the 6th spot in the East with a 26-20 record before he hurt his knee. Go figure.


Great post!


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



PauloCatarino said:


> Now i've read it all...


Umm, Jordan _was_ a top 5 MVP candidate at the AS break. Did you have your head in the sand that year? Did you not listen to any anaylsts or read any articles?



Paulo Catarino said:


> You can put up as many reports you'd like about MJ being an MVP contender when playing with the Wizards. I'll call any of them writers a liar.


*Translation:* Everyone else is wrong and I'm right. I made a comment and, despite being provided with evidence to the contrary, will not admit my error. I am not intellectually honest.


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



23AJ said:


> And at 40 years of age if Jordan was on a Dynasty Championship team (rather then a pathetic Wizards team) (Check the Wizards team record the year before Jordan played) he would of been more valueable then Kareem at 40 years of age on any championship etam because Jordan was a better player then Kareem at 40 years of age. However nice way to try and spin a negative review of Jordan at 40, and pump up Kareems value.


Just call me a bitter Wizards fan. Jordan had done a great job as general manager getting rid of the overpaid aging trash Wes Unseld (great player, great person, 2nd worst GM in history to only the Ted Stepien Cavaliers days) had filled the team with and bringing in some young talent to develop around Kwame while he negotiated the transition from high school to NBA. 

Then Jordan decides he is bored and wants to play again and destroys the team. Jordan might have been a great contributor on a championship team, he still had a lot of talent . . . he may have been a disaster, he still had his enormous ego that called the Bulls "my supporting cast" . . . coming back for the Wizards was, however, an act of selfishness and a mess.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Umm, Jordan _was_ a top 5 MVP candidate at the AS break. Did you have your head in the sand that year? Did you not listen to any anaylsts or read any articles?
> 
> 
> 
> *Translation:* Everyone else is wrong and I'm right. I made a comment and, despite being provided with evidence to the contrary, will not admit my error. I am not intellectually honest.


Let's try and see it unsiased, then. And sorry if some of my calculations are incorrect.

1- *At the ASG break, the Wizards were 26-21. That's good for a .5553W%.* Translated to 82 games, the Wizards would have won 45 games at the end of the season. Is that MVP material? Everybody was harping that Kobe couldn't have won the MVP last year because no MVP winner should play for a mediocre team. Guess what? The Lakers won 45 games that year. And Kobe played on a higher level than Jordan in 2002 till the ASG.

2- Reviewing the list of MVP votes, 3 guys are (IMHO) heads and shoulders over Jordan in the first half of the season: Dunca, Kidd and Shaq.

3- So, that's 3 of the "Top-5 MVP contenders considering the first half of the season".

4- Till the ASG break, the Celtics (Pierce) were at a .580% clip; the Sixers at .510% (Allen missed the first 5 games of the season - all losses); the Magic (T-Mac) at .510%. One can be said that all players' games compared with Jordan's.

5- Till the ASG break, KG had the Wolves at a .666w% rithm. And Webber was leading the Kings for the best ecord in the league.

6- From the 13 top vote getters for the MVP award at the end of the season, only 3 players (Tract, Iverson and Payton) led their teams to inferior winning % as to Jordan's Wizards till the ASG break.

So, for me, it's pretty much a certain that Jordan was NOT a Top-5 MVP candidate at the ASG break. Kidd, Duncan,Shaq, KG and Webber (i have to check his games played till the ASG) were easily more worthy. 

That's 5. 

Iverson, IMHO, comes next.

One can debate where to rank Jordan (till the ASG) between players like Kobe, T-MAc, Piece, Dirk and Payton, but i think it's clearly obvious that he was not a Top-5 MVP candidate. So, in all coherence, i'd have to say that whoever was saying that was lying. And that's while also ignoring the "Kobe can't be MVP because his team sucks" criteria.

But please, for me, go right ahead defending how a guy leading his team for a 45-37 finish in the East, while shooting .430FG% was a logical Top-5 MVP...


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> Just call me a bitter Wizards fan. Jordan had done a great job as general manager getting rid of the overpaid aging trash Wes Unseld (great player, great person, 2nd worst GM in history to only the Ted Stepien Cavaliers days) had filled the team with and bringing in some young talent to develop around Kwame while he negotiated the transition from high school to NBA.
> 
> Then Jordan decides he is bored and wants to play again and destroys the team. Jordan might have been a great contributor on a championship team, he still had a lot of talent . . . he may have been a disaster, he still had his enormous ego that called the Bulls "my supporting cast" . . . coming back for the Wizards was, however, an act of selfishness and a mess.


agreed, but kwame #1 overall?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> Just call me a bitter Wizards fan. Jordan had done a great job as general manager getting rid of the overpaid aging trash Wes Unseld (great player, great person, 2nd worst GM in history to only the Ted Stepien Cavaliers days) had filled the team with and bringing in some young talent to develop around Kwame while he negotiated the transition from high school to NBA.
> 
> Then Jordan decides he is bored and wants to play again and destroys the team. Jordan might have been a great contributor on a championship team, he still had a lot of talent . . . he may have been a disaster, he still had his enormous ego that called the Bulls "my supporting cast" . . . coming back for the Wizards was, however, an act of selfishness and a mess.


As a Wizards fans your bitter over MJ ? That's the most asinine thing I've ever heard. MJ's coming back, and playing totally rejuvinated the entire organization to allow the Wizards some spark/shine , and eventually pick up some great pieces. Such as one of my favorite players Caron Butler. Being upset over the way Jordan treated Kwame or any other pieces of those Wizards team is absurd to say the least. The Wizard teams Jordan had were low end NBA players. Most are out of the league now, or are coming off the bench. Yet you excpected a 40 year old Jordan to carry that garbage to what? A possible playoff birth at that time was huge for the Wizards organization. Again I reference the Wizards record before Jordan started playing. Jordan didn't do any harm to anyone there. Also to say Jordan was selfish is quite questionable considering most of the Wizards management, and owner included all vastly supported, and wanted Jordan to come back, and play. So if you are going to call out MJ, YOU NEED TO CALL OUT THE WIZARDS ORGANIATION ON A WHOLE. As an NBA fan I enjoyed the Jordan Wizards stint. And As an Agent Zero/Caron fan I'm puzzled by your bitterness towards MJ considering the road the Wizards are on now. Since it's far far better then where they were, and destined to go at that time. It was all south.


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



PauloCatarino said:


> Let's try and see it unsiased, then. And sorry if some of my calculations are incorrect.
> 
> 1- *At the ASG break, the Wizards were 26-21. That's good for a .5553W%.* Translated to 82 games, the Wizards would have won 45 games at the end of the season. Is that MVP material? Everybody was harping that Kobe couldn't have won the MVP last year because no MVP winner should play for a mediocre team. Guess what? The Lakers won 45 games that year. And Kobe played on a higher level than Jordan in 2002 till the ASG.
> 
> 2- Reviewing the list of MVP votes, 3 guys are (IMHO) heads and shoulders over Jordan in the first half of the season: Dunca, Kidd and Shaq.
> 
> 3- So, that's 3 of the "Top-5 MVP contenders considering the first half of the season".
> 
> 4- Till the ASG break, the Celtics (Pierce) were at a .580% clip; the Sixers at .510% (Allen missed the first 5 games of the season - all losses); the Magic (T-Mac) at .510%. One can be said that all players' games compared with Jordan's.
> 
> 5- Till the ASG break, KG had the Wolves at a .666w% rithm. And Webber was leading the Kings for the best ecord in the league.
> 
> 6- From the 13 top vote getters for the MVP award at the end of the season, only 3 players (Tract, Iverson and Payton) led their teams to inferior winning % as to Jordan's Wizards till the ASG break.
> 
> So, for me, it's pretty much a certain that Jordan was NOT a Top-5 MVP candidate at the ASG break. Kidd, Duncan,Shaq, KG and Webber (i have to check his games played till the ASG) were easily more worthy.
> 
> That's 5.
> 
> Iverson, IMHO, comes next.
> 
> One can debate where to rank Jordan (till the ASG) between players like Kobe, T-MAc, Piece, Dirk and Payton, but i think it's clearly obvious that he was not a Top-5 MVP candidate. So, in all coherence, i'd have to say that whoever was saying that was lying. And that's while also ignoring the "Kobe can't be MVP because his team sucks" criteria.
> 
> But please, for me, go right ahead defending how a guy leading his team for a 45-37 finish in the East, while shooting .430FG% was a logical Top-5 MVP...


Are you still on this argument Paulo?

I really gotta give you credit for your persistence.

Jordan was considered a top 5 MVP candidate by many people. Plus he had the hype of his comeback and the Wizards I think had the best December record in the East and Jordan was improving. The Wiz were 24-12 in the last 36 games leading up to the AS break. You can't forget that the Wiz only won a dismal 19 games the season before. Even if they ended up winning 45 games that would be an amazing 26 game improvement. His supporting cast was also considered "garbage" players by many people and Rip was still unknown at that time. Pierce, AI, and etc. all had better supporting casts than Jordan. The starting C for the Wiz was Jahidi White and the starting PG was Chris Whitney for god's sake. 

That's my last bit. If your opinion is that Jordan was not top 5 then that is your opinion but that doesn't disregard the opinion of many or majority of other people who thought he was.


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



23AJ said:


> As a Wizards fans your bitter over MJ ? That's the most asinine thing I've ever heard. MJ's coming back, and playing totally rejuvinated the entire organization to allow the Wizards some spark/shine , and eventually pick up some great pieces. Such as one of my favorite players Caron Butler. Being upset over the way Jordan treated Kwame or any other pieces of those Wizards team is absurd to say the least. The Wizard teams Jordan had were low end NBA players. Most are out of the league now, or are coming off the bench. Yet you excpected a 40 year old Jordan to carry that garbage to what? A possible playoff birth at that time was huge for the Wizards organization. Again I reference the Wizards record before Jordan started playing. Jordan didn't do any harm to anyone there. Also to say Jordan was selfish is quite questionable considering most of the Wizards management, and owner included all vastly supported, and wanted Jordan to come back, and play. So if you are going to call out MJ, YOU NEED TO CALL OUT THE WIZARDS ORGANIATION ON A WHOLE. As an NBA fan I enjoyed the Jordan Wizards stint. And As an Agent Zero/Caron fan I'm puzzled by your bitterness towards MJ considering the road the Wizards are on now. Since it's far far better then where they were, and destined to go at that time. It was all south.


I've been calling out the whole Bullets/Wizard organization since the days of GM Bob Ferry when every year they would go after another aging scorer to make a run at the 8th playoff position. Until Jordan became GM, (except the Pervis Ellison deal) every major trade the organization had made since the year Wes Unseld retired had been to get older; never had they moved up in the first round or gotten an extra first; the organization had made a commitment to mediocrity! Jordan's finally taking over from the pitiful Wes Unseld was a breath of fresh air. He dumped STrickland, Richmond, and Austin; brought in some 1st rounders, the team was bad but it was young and had some potential. Yes, I hated it at the time when Jordan came out; the team didn't have enough talent to do more than be mediocre and Jordan was going to be good enough to carry them that far and no farther while they would get no more top young players to go with Kwame. And . . . I was right. Do you really think a team with a core of Arenas, Butler, and Jamison is a contender for the NBA title? They did a great job getting Gil, but that team, while better than a #8 seed, isn't going to win it all either. That's what I want and I'll take rebuilding to get there; I just don't want mediocrity any more.


----------



## 23isback

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*



TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife said:


> *Lets not forget that Jordan also quit the game twice when the going got tough...
> *
> lol at people who want to say the best "EVER", the greatest of "ALL TIMES" but exclude anything that happened outside of the NBA...That in itself is a joke....
> 
> Best EVER and greatest of ALL TIMES is why you have to include all three phases of their careers, not just one....


That's really an ignorant statement. He retired because his dad died and he wanted to fullfill his dad's dream of him playing baseball. He missed a whole season, but when he came back, his basketball skills were still intact, perfectly. He was the most dominant player in the league once again.

Jordan is the greatest ever. His killer instinct, his will to win, the prolific scoring. Yes, he couldn't win a championship by himself, but no player can win championships by himself. Even Kareem needed Magic to get past the Celtics. 

Comparing high school careers is complete bs. The type of competition you face varies so dramatically (I know playing on varsity). Even some of the better college players have struggled in the NBA.

Kareem the greatest ever? Hah. Give me a young motivated Shaq over him.


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Jordan the best EVER??? Im getting sick and tired of hearing*

Kwame #1 showed the issues with scouting HS players at the time. If you remember there were three HS candidates for a top pick (I think Eddie Griffin was getting the most play from commentators among the college players with a few saying Shane Battier. . . Gasol was never talked about in Washington papers as a potential #1 pick).

Kwame was supposed to have a developed offensive game and be the best character guy but the fear was that he was too soft, just a jump shooter.

CHandler was supposed to have the best outside game, at 7' and thin, people were talking about him as a SF a la the young Larry Nance; but there were questions about his work ethic, strength, and commitment to defense.

Curry was supposed to be the rawest of the three, a banger and physical player who loved contact and would be a great rebounder/defender but with no offensive repetoire (a more athletic Antonio Davis was one quote).

Funny how things turned out eh.


----------



## Najee

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*



Spriggan said:


> That just goes to show you how good Pippen was. The fact that Pippen nearly carried the Bulls to the Eastern Conference Finals without MJ is a testament to Pippen's ability and how good a team the Bulls were, and if anything, a slight against MJ.


The Chicago Bulls lost in the second round of the Eastern Conference playoffs to the New York Knicks with essentially the same team that won three titles -- except for Michael Jordan. The 1993-94 Bulls have noticeable drops in all their numbers compared to the 1992-93 season and finished second in the Central Division to an Atlanta Hawks team that traded Dominique Wilkins after the All-Star break.


----------



## RSP83

*Re: How Many NBA Championships Would Michael Jordan Have Won Without Scottie Pippen?*

none, now are you satisfied?


----------



## SickGame

*Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

As in, did someoene ever facial Jordan? I was wondering that the other day because obviously alot of stars have been at one point or another, but I have no recollection of it happening to Jordan (or Kobe of a matter of fact)


----------



## eymang

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

If it's not on youtube, it never happened


----------



## Krimzon

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

I don't remember it happening. He might or might not have been dunked on.


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

Well John Starks kind of dunked on Jordan.


----------



## Saint Baller

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



Gilgamesh said:


> Well John Starks kind of dunked on Jordan.


Jordan was coming in to help but realized it was too late, so make what you want of it.. I don't think it counts.


----------



## Carbo04

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

I can't recall a time it happened. I guess like someone said, if it's not on YouTube it hasn't happened.


----------



## Pinball

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

I wouldn't be surprised if he never got dunked on. He's a perimeter player and generally played defense 15-20 feet from the basket. Interior players get posterized far more often than perimeter players.


----------



## Saint Baller

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7vzB8Ujf6Mo"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7vzB8Ujf6Mo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Starks dunks on Horace and you can see to the left that Jordan came in to help. So make what you want of it.. I don't think it counts.


----------



## Carbo04

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

Nah, not really. It's a close as there is to a Jordan poster though probably.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



Carbo04 said:


> Nah, not really. It's a close as there is to a Jordan poster though probably.


Exactly.


----------



## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

of course he did...dont be ridiculous


----------



## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



Carbo04 said:


> I can't recall a time it happened. I guess like someone said, if it's not on YouTube it hasn't happened.


how much jordan do you remember ??

he was drafted before you were even born 


...........


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

Of course he got dunked on. Most of them were in situations like the Starks one where he came down late to help, and got throwed down on. But he wasn't like Shaq where there was a time where he refused to get dunked on. It was 2 points. He usually got them back on the other end anyways. You kids are funnnny.


----------



## white360

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

I will have to agree there is no way Jordan never got dunked on


----------



## 4BiddenKnight

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

Even if Jordan did get dunked on, there isn't much to be awwed about since he's a perimeter defender, and with his size he's far more vulnerable to being posterized than by those big men.


----------



## DuMa

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

that starks dunk defined his career. it was the best poster he ever got because jordan was included in the picture.


----------



## sarasuns

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

His name is KOBE.
http://files.filefront.com/Kobe_Dunk_on_Jordan_Molina/;4753899;/fileinfo.html
Can anyone find a good video of Jordan getting swatted? That should be easier to find.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

Kobe dunked on Jordan when he was 19.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TC-kKQMue4g"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TC-kKQMue4g" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

It's like two minutes in. 

And I'm certain that Dominique dunked on Jordan, but I couldn't find video. Barkley too, I think.


----------



## Priest

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

that dunk was just like starks basically


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

no it wasn't. Jordan tried to run out of the way like a coward and Kobe still turned around and threw it in his face.

Besides if we want embarrassing Jordan moments, we don't have to go any further than AI making him fall down on defense. In a lot of ways, that's the perimeter defenders facial.


----------



## SlamJam

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



futuristxen said:


> Kobe dunked on Jordan when he was 19.


lol, are you serious? that was a backdoor cut. nice move but kobe didn't dunk on anyone.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5xUXeVsEonA"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5xUXeVsEonA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


----------



## unluckyseventeen

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



www.starbury.com said:


> of course he did...dont be ridiculous


Wow, you've convinced me!


What they are talking about when 'dunked on' is they mean did anybody ever climb up his chest and dunk it in his face? The thread isn't asking 'has anybody Jordan defended made a dunk while he was within 5 feet of the basket?', and that's all I've seen thus far.

The fact that nobody can come up with one of him truly getting dunked on assures that it's never happened before.


----------



## afobisme

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

video too fuzzy, if that's jordan under the basket, then he got dunked on.


----------



## DuMa

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



CubanLaker said:


> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5xUXeVsEonA"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5xUXeVsEonA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


i remember that game. lakers lost by like 24


----------



## afobisme

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

didn't we go into the 4th with a big lead (16 pts) and the bulls came back? maybe that was in 94-95 with van exel lakers.


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

I've seen MJ get dunked on 3 times (no, Starks DID NOT dunk on him, he dunked on Horace Grant).

Times I remember:

1. His freshman year at North Carolina, in a game against Dominique Wilkins and Georgia. No, Nique didn't dunk on him. One of his teammates did (forgot dude's name).

2. Brad Daugherty in the 1992 Eastern Conference Finals. It was in Cleveland (either Game 3 or 4) and Daugherty was by himself on a break right before the half. MJ tried to head him off and block his shot and Daugherty dunked on him.

3. Karl Malone. In Utah (forgot what year, but it was before they switched to their current uniforms), again off a break, Stockton passed the ball to Malone and MJ tried to head him off and Malone dunked on him.


Those are the only times I can remember MJ getting thrown down on. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been a big deal made out of them, particularly the last two since the happened when he was a global icon.


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



futuristxen said:


> no it wasn't. Jordan tried to run out of the way like a coward and Kobe still turned around and threw it in his face.
> 
> Besides if we want embarrassing Jordan moments, we don't have to go any further than AI making him fall down on defense. In a lot of ways, that's the perimeter defenders facial.



Get outta here with that b.s., Lebron Homer. I guarantee you if Kobe dunked on MJ, the whole world would know about it.


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



CubanLaker said:


> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5xUXeVsEonA"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5xUXeVsEonA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>



That's not getting dunked on.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

Ok given the parameters of "getting dunked on" then there are a lot of players that have never been dunked on. How many perimeter players end up under the basket and contesting the dunk. Has Earl Boykins ever been dunked on?


----------



## 23isback

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

I'm 100% certain that Mutombo blocked Jordan. The announcer said "not even his airness is allowed into the House of Mutombo".


----------



## Priest

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



futuristxen said:


> no it wasn't. Jordan tried to run out of the way like a coward and Kobe still turned around and threw it in his face.
> 
> Besides if we want embarrassing Jordan moments, we don't have to go any further than AI making him fall down on defense. In a lot of ways, that's the perimeter defenders facial.


oh now iverson made mj fall...wow


----------



## Dre

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

He was like 6-6, 215, why would it be news if someone dunked on him?

And lol futuristxen, hardly a posterization.


----------



## sarasuns

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

Did you guys actually watch this Kobe dunk, 
http://files.filefront.com/Kobe_Dunk_on_Jordan_Molina/;4753899;/fileinfo.html

I could make quite a few posters out of it if it was higher resolution. Seems like Jordan is looking up at him and tries to turn away right as he is throwing it down.


----------



## 4BiddenKnight

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



_Dre_ said:


> He was like 6-6, 215, why would it be news if someone dunked on him?
> 
> And lol futuristxen, hardly a posterization.


Yeah, DWade got dunked on yet nobody made a big deal out of it.


----------



## magohaydz

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

That video of Kobe "dunking on" Jordan hardly cements it as fact. I really dont think breaking past someone counts as dunking on them. The best part about that video is the opening frame 

Rebounds 
LA Lakers - 7
Rodman - 7


----------



## ez8o5

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

i think ricky davis dunked on a older Washington wizard jordan


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

Kind of a silly thread. I don't think Shaq was ever crossed up either. All that means is that he wasn't guarding people out on the perimeter, just like Jordan wasn't under the basket trying to block guy's shots.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



white360 said:


> I will have to agree there is no way Jordan never got dunked on


No shame in getting dunked on if you're out of poition or trying to legitimately challenge a shot. Jordan got straight up dunked on only one time that I know of (I have about 260 Bulls games on tape/DVD and have seen dozens of others):


1992 Conference Semis, Chicago vs. Cleveland - Jordan is the lone defender back and Daugherty was coming full steam at him. Jordan tries to go straight up in front of the rim with one hand for the shotblock, but Daugherty plows right through him and jams it with two hands. He didn't "carry" Jordan towards the basket, since Jordan was already directly in front of it, but it was definitely on Jordan. It was sorta like Stro on Yao a couple of years back.

One thing you've gotta admire about Jordan: he'd stand in against anyone on defense, even big men. I remember this play where Ewing was coming down hard and was gonna yoke it and Jordan came out of nowhere and somehow cut in front of him for the block. It's on the video "Michael Jordan's Playground."




> Jordan tried to run out of the way like a coward and Kobe still turned around and threw it in his face.


Err, not really. Jordan got beat backdoor and still nearly recovered for the block from behind. Kobe didn't dunk "on" him at all, much less "in his face." :lol: Jordan, however, *has* jammed it in Kobe's face in a game in 1998, when Kobe checked him and he spun backdoor off Kobe's pressure for a lob, grabbed it with two hands and put it in directly over and though a recovering Kobe, who got called for the foul. There's video of this game on youtube, but not this particular play. Once I get the game on DVD (and I will), I'll upload the play. It was pretty nasty.



AirJordan23 said:


> 2. Brad Daugherty in the 1992 Eastern Conference Finals. It was in Cleveland (either Game 3 or 4) and Daugherty was by himself on a break right before the half. MJ tried to head him off and block his shot and Daugherty dunked on him.


Yep, that's the same play I described above. That's the only one I've seen. The Malone dunk I think I saw on a Malone highlight video, but didn't Jordan just cut across from the side at the last moment for the block attempt and was never in front of Malone when he dunked it? Or maybe you're talking about a different incident.


*EDIT:* And Starks' dunk, if on anyone, was on Grant. Jordan came down to help from nearly the top of the key and never got within 6 feet of Starks on that dunk because Grant was in the way. Watch it from the normal game angle rather than the under-the-basket-looking-out angle.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

Steve Kerr never got dunked on.

Nor John Paxson.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

This whole culture of getting dunked on being so embarassing is a bad sign of the times. If you're a person who consistently defends, you'll eventually get got. All shooters shoot airballs, all good defenders get crossed or don't rotate fast enough to prevent the dunk. Doesn't make you any less of a defender.


----------



## magohaydz

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



_Dre_ said:


> This whole culture of getting dunked on being so embarassing is a bad sign of the times. If you're a person who consistently defends, you'll eventually get got. All shooters shoot airballs, all good defenders get crossed or don't rotate fast enough to prevent the dunk. Doesn't make you any less of a defender.


Very well said. I dont play ball these days, but back in highschool I used to average 4 blocks a game. We played 20 minute halfs too, not 12 minute quarters. Doesnt mean no-one ever got a shot over me, or took me to the hole for a lay-up (only 2 people could dunk in our school back then, myself included). The other guy, who stood 6 inches taller than me dunked on me once (6'7" to my 6'1") during a game, but the next time he tried, I swatted him out of court. You cant block EVERY single shot/dunk attempt that goes up on you.


----------



## seifer0406

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

I don't remember Jordan being "Dunked on". If it did happen, I'm sure the replays would've been shown at least a million times by now and everyone would've seen it. He has been owned off the dribble a few times and the guy finished at the rim (like Kobe), but I don't think anyone actually jumped over Jordan to throw one down before.


----------



## HallOfFamer

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



SickGame said:


> As in, did someoene ever facial Jordan? I was wondering that the other day because obviously alot of stars have been at one point or another, but I have no recollection of it happening to Jordan (or Kobe of a matter of fact)


The last true facial I remember Kobe getting was by Lamar Odom when he was still on the Heat. People were calling that Marion putback over Kobe a facial, but it didn't look like it to me.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



futuristxen said:


> Of course he got dunked on. Most of them were in situations like the Starks one where he came down late to help, and got throwed down on. But he wasn't like Shaq where there was a time where he refused to get dunked on. It was 2 points. He usually got them back on the other end anyways. You kids are funnnny.


<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0A6G8t6zsyI"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0A6G8t6zsyI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

Kobes dunk on Dwight Howard is a facial dunk. People who tried to claim Kobe dunked on Jordan in this thread are either Kobe homers (by the way Kobe is my favorite player) or Jordan haters.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



futuristxen said:


> Ok given the parameters of "getting dunked on" then there are a lot of players that have never been dunked on. How many perimeter players end up under the basket and contesting the dunk. Has Earl Boykins ever been dunked on?


A facial dunk has always been the same. You're just a LeBron homer, and Jordan hater.


----------



## Priest

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

ot: has anyone see the game when shaq was on lsu and they played loyola marymount? shaq got dunked on in the worse way


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



23AJ said:


> A facial dunk has always been the same. You're just a LeBron homer, and Jordan hater.



QFT. On both points.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

now, how many situations was jordan in where he would have been dunked on but he blocked the dunk instead? as pointed out, there's little value in this has he been dunked on exercise. i'm sure there are many crappy players/defenders who never got posterized.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

some of the better facials (particularly the last 3)

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Mx2hVWvgd9w"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Mx2hVWvgd9w" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



kflo said:


> some of the better facials (particularly the last 3)
> 
> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Mx2hVWvgd9w"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Mx2hVWvgd9w" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>



That dunk on Bill Walton is just wrong... Walton gets great extension for the block and Dr. J just gets over the top of him... of course... rocking the baby to sleep and putting one on Michael Cooper's head is pretty hard to top.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

the cooper cradle is one of the most graceful overall plays in sports, imo. not just the dr., but cooper going up to challenge, then making the midair decision to just duck for cover. 2 incredible athletes just floating.

and the walton dunk was the dunk i was looking for when i found that clip.


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

even if there was actualy footage or pics of jordan getting "posterized" people would just ignore it and look the other way....they love Jordan too much


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



Dornado said:


> That dunk on Bill Walton is just wrong... Walton gets great extension for the block and Dr. J just gets over the top of him... of course... rocking the baby to sleep and putting one on Michael Cooper's head is pretty hard to top.


Very few people seem to know that:

1- Elgin Baylor was the first flyer in the NBA;
2- The Hawk was the first high-profile dunker;
*3- Dr.J started it all.*


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*



ElMarroAfamado said:



> even if there was actualy footage or pics of jordan getting "posterized" people would just ignore it and look the other way....they love Jordan too much


Smell that.......Yeah it's another Jordan hater.


----------



## compsciguy78

*Re: Was Jordan ever dunked on?*

Jordan got dunked on by Kobe? Isn't that getting beat on the backdoor?

That DR. J dunk on Walton made my night! Dr. J was my favorite dunker! Kobe should bring the fro back.


----------



## dwade3

*After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

My friend and I were top 5ing best Centers, PFs etc etc of all-time, then we got down to SGs, and we both agreed on Jordan, Kobe and Wade (as we had Drexler, Dr. J, Baylor, Bird and Tmac as SF's) as the top 3.....we were rattling our brains trying to figure out the other 2 ALL-TIME great SG's not just the Carters, Rice's, Allens that come through, but the straight into the HOF as soon as eligible top 5....


----------



## Husstla

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

This is a tricky one. I'd say Reggie would be one of them. Not sure on the 5th.


----------



## seifer0406

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

I wouldn't put Wade up there yet. He really only had 1 outstanding season. A lot can go wrong for a young player.

I would say Jordan, Kobe, George Gervin, Jerry West, and Reggie Miller.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*



dwade3 said:


> My friend and I were top 5ing best Centers, PFs etc etc of all-time, then we got down to SGs, and we both agreed on Jordan, Kobe and Wade (as we had Drexler, Dr. J, Baylor, Bird and Tmac as SF's) as the top 3.....we were rattling our brains trying to figure out the other 2 ALL-TIME great SG's not just the Carters, Rice's, Allens that come through, but the straight into the HOF as soon as eligible top 5....


Jordan;
West;
Kobe;
Gervin (if considered a SG)
Sharman;


----------



## different_13

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

Jordan West and Kobe clearly are top SG's of all time.

Clyde Drexler could be up there..

If Havlicek is considered a SG, I'd probably go for him.. but he's more of a SF really.

Dwade3, what were the other lists you came up with?


----------



## mo76

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*



dwade3 said:


> My friend and I were top 5ing best Centers, PFs etc etc of all-time, then we got down to SGs, and we both agreed on Jordan, Kobe and Wade (as we had Drexler, Dr. J, Baylor, Bird and Tmac as SF's) as the top 3.....we were rattling our brains trying to figure out the other 2 ALL-TIME great SG's not just the Carters, Rice's, Allens that come through, but the straight into the HOF as soon as eligible top 5....


I don't think wade is the third best shooting guard of all time. The sports media used to try to sell him A LOT, and he benifits from playing with shaq. He still deserves to be mentioned when talking about great shooting guards though.
If you are saying great all-time, then i'd say
jordan, kobe, Dr. J
there is also this guy nicknamed skywalker, (forget his name and can't find it), but the guy scored over 70 in an NBA game. He also started the big one handed tomahak jam that lebron does now. If anyone knows who i am talking about could you give his name.


----------



## dwade3

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

ahhh, we had top 5 centers (in no order) as:

Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem and Russell.........i dont believe you can separate these guys from 1st to 5th, soo many arguments for each player and why they could be the GOAT center.....

top 5 PFs:

Duncan, Garnett, Barkley, Malone, Pettit (but Bird would slot over Pettit if u class him as a PF)


----------



## dwade3

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*



mo76 said:


> I don't think wade is the third best shooting guard of all time. The sports media used to try to sell him A LOT, and he benifits from playing with shaq. He still deserves to be mentioned when talking about great shooting guards though.
> If you are saying great all-time, then i'd say
> jordan, kobe, Dr. J
> there is also this guy nicknamed skywalker, (forget his name and can't find it), but the guy scored over 70 in an NBA game. He also started the big one handed tomahak jam that lebron does now. If anyone knows who i am talking about could you give his name.



ok, he is young yes, but if u took what he did in the past 4 years and shoved that somewhere in between Glen Rice's career, you'd be talkin bout Glen Rice being one of the closest to the Jordan level, i believe Wades best is, scarily enough, ahead of him, but he has done some things in those 4 short years even Ray Allen or Carter havent achieved in their glittering careers.....i may seem like a Wade homer (and i guess i sorta am), but i have the arguments to back it up, having a 34/35 yo shaq didnt help Wade average like 35ppg in the finals, all those little facts about he joins Jordan and Magic as the only players to do this and that in the playoffs, Shaq wasnt even there wen Wade, i mean the Heat, swept the Wizards.....now if Wade can do these things with an aging Shaq, imagine Wade paired up with Elton Brand or Carlos Boozer.....wowwee....


----------



## bullybullz

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

Depending on positions: Oscar Robertson (SG), Elvin Hayes (PF), Pete Maravich (SG), David Thompson during his short NBA career (SG), Spencer Haywood (PF), Bob McAdoo (PF).


----------



## mo76

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*



dwade3 said:


> ok, he is young yes, but if u took what he did in the past 4 years and shoved that somewhere in between Glen Rice's career, you'd be talkin bout Glen Rice being one of the closest to the Jordan level, i believe Wades best is, scarily enough, ahead of him, but he has done some things in those 4 short years even Ray Allen or Carter havent achieved in their glittering careers.....i may seem like a Wade homer (and i guess i sorta am), but i have the arguments to back it up, having a 34/35 yo shaq didnt help Wade average like 35ppg in the finals, all those little facts about he joins Jordan and Magic as the only players to do this and that in the playoffs, Shaq wasnt even there wen Wade, i mean the Heat, swept the Wizards.....now if Wade can do these things with an aging Shaq, imagine Wade paired up with Elton Brand or Carlos Boozer.....wowwee....


Sorry, I know that shaq was declining the year the heat one the finals. What i meant by benifiting was that the media was trying to turn him into the next Kobe, because they wanted to have shaq on national TV and wanted another megastar. Wade stepped up, but it is too soon to talk about him as the third best player ever at the most prestigous position. To me, circus shots don't make a great player. Wade is an amazing athletic slasher, with heart, which makes him a great player. But not one of the greatest ever imo.


----------



## Drewbs

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*



dwade3 said:


> ok, he is young yes, but if u took what he did in the past 4 years and shoved that somewhere in between Glen Rice's career, you'd be talkin bout Glen Rice being one of the closest to the Jordan level, i believe Wades best is, scarily enough, ahead of him, but he has done some things in those 4 short years even Ray Allen or Carter havent achieved in their glittering careers.....i may seem like a Wade homer (and i guess i sorta am), but i have the arguments to back it up, having a 34/35 yo shaq didnt help Wade average like 35ppg in the finals, all those little facts about he joins Jordan and Magic as the only players to do this and that in the playoffs, Shaq wasnt even there wen Wade, i mean the Heat, swept the Wizards.....now if Wade can do these things with an aging Shaq, imagine Wade paired up with Elton Brand or Carlos Boozer.....wowwee....


No one talks about Ray Allen or Vince Carter as the best shooting guards of all time, so it doesn't matter if Wade is better than them. Think of it this way, Wade averaged 35 ppg in the finals, for a stretch of six games, but the other two guys you put him with, Kobe and Jordan, put up those numbers for entire 82 game seasons. Its great that Wade was able to step it up when it counted, but ALL the great players bring their best come big games. If they didn't, they wouldn't be great.

Also, lmao at whoever said Reggie Miller would have been fourth.


----------



## different_13

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*



dwade3 said:


> ahhh, we had top 5 centers (in no order) as:
> 
> Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem and Russell.........i dont believe you can separate these guys from 1st to 5th, soo many arguments for each player and why they could be the GOAT center.....
> 
> top 5 PFs:
> 
> Duncan, Garnett, Barkley, Malone, Pettit (but Bird would slot over Pettit if u class him as a PF)



Definitely agree on the centers, and that PF list looks pretty good too.

Skywalker was David Thompson's nickname btw, he was the guy you discuss when talking about Dr J's dunking ability (in the same way Nique was Jordan's nemesis).

What about SF?
In no order, I have Dr J, Bird, Pippen, Havlicek, Rick Barry and Bernard King. King and Pippen are probably the guys that would be bumped off if I remembered anyone else deserving. There's probably arguements for Wilkins or Baylor as well..

Wade needs to play at a 20/5/5 level for another 6 years before I'd think about calling him a top SG ever. A 4 year-career cannot be the greatest ever.


----------



## O2K

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

kobe yes, wade no.


----------



## Flash is the Future

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

Wade's definitely not above West yet. But give him about 4-5 more years at this level, and I'd put him at 3. His stats are good enough. He just needs to keep it up for longer. You can't climb up an All-time list in 4 years.


----------



## gothambats

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

wade will be lucky to be top 10 of all time. we've seen wade at his best. its all downhill.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*



Flash is the Future said:


> Wade's definitely not above West yet. But give him about 4-5 more years at this level, and I'd put him at 3. His stats are good enough. He just needs to keep it up for longer. You can't climb up an All-time list in 4 years.


I think you should better wait like 10 years or so... That way, we can see if Wade gets career averages of 27-5-6 (29/5/6 in the playoffs), alongside being named 11 times 1st or 2nd team All-Nba and 5 times All-defense Teamer, and be considered one of the clutchest players ever.

The same guy MJ once talked about like "I would have loved to play against Jerry West. Then we'd see who was better" or something like that.

Another curious thing i read in this thread was naming Garnett over Karl Malone in the list of PFs... Exactly was the reason for THAT?


----------



## HB

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

Wade is a top 5 shooting guard of all time already? Well I'll be.


----------



## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

Wade top 5 SG all-time? Um, no.

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Havlicek
5. Rick Barry
6. Drexler


Probably could be argued based on career over a long time at this point Miller, Richmond, and such but the title Wade has probably puts him above them.

I'm sure there are several more above Wade right now, just not coming to mind.

Now granted Drexler and Barry are debatable now and if Wade has another run like 06 I'd move him above them, but that's IF he has another run like that. I mean you could have argued in 1976, "What IF Rick Barry does what he did in 75 again?"

You could consider Oscar Roberston a PG/SG/SF, if you throw him in the mix he's probably #3 or #4.


How the hell did Wade even get into this topic?


Actually, now that I think about it IMO Wade isn't even the 2nd best SG now, I'd still take T-Mac over him.


----------



## shobe42

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*



gothambats said:


> wade will be lucky to be top 10 of all time. we've seen wade at his best. its all downhill.


i don't know how you can say this... even if it was all down hill from here he has accomplished enough to put him high on an all-time argument... he's a great team player, smart efficient scorer, and extremely clutch player... he has the entire skill set to compete with most... 

he also was a finals mvp... he completely took over a championship series and proved himself as a great player...

like Kobe, by a very young age he had accomplished more than most had in their career... guys like drexler and miller may have had the longevity(sp?) but even in that long stretch of great play they didn't accomplish what wade did...

wade is a really special player...


----------



## Adol

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

Drexler is not a small forward, he's a shooting guard, and I think a top 5 one at that.


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

Ray Allen is def in there, not sure which spot


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*



Marcus13 said:


> Ray Allen is def in there, not sure which spot


yeah # 18.


----------



## mysterio

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

In terms of career standing, it's 
1) Jordan, 
2) Kobe, 
3) West, 
4) Havlicek, and 
5) Gervin.

If we're talking about overall talent, it's 
1) Jordan, 
2) Kobe, 
3) Pistol Pete, 
4) West, and 
5) a toss-up between Drexler, Gervin, Havlecek, and Wade (so far, but he can move up, obviously).

And yes, I'm a Pistol Pete troll. But a college career of 57ppg (corrected for lack of 3pt line), and a probable 70+ point NBA game (68 without the 3 point line), is nothing to sniff at, aside from inventing show-time.


----------



## imeugenera

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Oscar Robertson, Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson
:clap2: :clap2: :clap2:


----------



## Flash is the Future

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

Reggie's not a top 5 SG. Go look at his stats. He scored, and shot very well in the clutch, but name something else that he did.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

MJ, Kobe, West, Oscar, AI, Gervin, Drexler.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*



CubanLaker said:


> MJ, Kobe, West, Oscar, AI, Gervin, Drexler.


I'll go with this. Kobe, West, and Oscar are interchangeable IMHO.


----------



## Dream Hakeem

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*



Flash is the Future said:


> Reggie's not a top 5 SG. Go look at his stats. He scored, and shot very well in the clutch, but name something else that he did.


Arn't shootings guards supposed to score?


----------



## someone

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

Ben Gordon


----------



## Sunsfan81

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

LOL Wade and Reggie aren't even close. If considered a SG, Oscar Robertson would be 2nd and way above anyone else. 

1. Michael Jordan
2. Jerry West
3. Kobe Bryant
4. George Gervin
5. Allen Iverson
6. Bill Sharman
7. Clyde Drexler
8. Sam Jones
9. Hal Greer
10. Pete Maravich


----------



## jericho

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

There's a lot of confusion about positions players actually played at in this thread. For example, how does the Big O slot as a SG when he's one of the career leaders in assists? Yes, he played in an era when a guard was a guard, without the current clear designations of PG and SG, but he was obviously the floor general and chief ballhandler and playmaker.

Also, Drexler and Gervin overwhelmingly played SG. I'd consider Pistol Pete mostly a PG.

My quick list of top 5 SGs.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Jerry West
3. Kobe Bryant
4. George Gervin (I'd put him above Kobe if he played both ends of the floor)
5. Clyde Drexler

Drexler tends to be underrated on this board. I really think that at his best, a killer instinct and drive to be the best was all that separated him from Jordan. But that's a pretty big variable in this sport. 

Wade appears to be on track to take Drexler's spot, but I'd like to see him performing at his current level or higher for another 3 years before bumping him up. Right now I'd put him with David Thompson in the 6-8 range.

Reggie Miller was just not nearly a "complete" enough player to merit consideration in the top 5. I'd maybe put him somewhere in the next 5, but I'm not even sure about that. 

Iverson is definitely in the next 5, and could take Clyde's spot if his career shooting efficiency rates weren't so low and his general shot selection were better. He's an incredible player, but not as effective as he might be given the effort he puts out on the court. 

Other considerations for the next 5 are Vince Carter, Earl Monroe, Paul Pierce, Hal Greer, Bill Sharman, and Sam Jones.


----------



## LowOnMyPaper

*Re: After Jordan, Kobe and Wade......top 5 SG's*

I'd say Bill Sharman, Sam Jones, and Clyde Drexler are the other Top 5ers.


----------



## someone

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*



BigChris said:


> I agree with oppression: Jordan is NOT the greatest player of all-time.
> 
> Oscar and Wilt are both better candidates for that sort of acclaimation IMO.


I also agree with that.


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*

FACT: There was NO reason to make this thread at all, given that you made no argument


----------



## Seuss

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*

FACT: This thread is from 2002, it probably should have stayed in that year.


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*

haha i didnt even notice that lol at liekomgj4ck finding and bumping this


----------



## Flash is the Future

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*

FACT: This thread was from 2002, when MJ was looking lackluster while he was playing from the Wizards. Thankfully, that hasn't tarnished his legacy. MJ=GOAT.


----------



## someone

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*



Flash is the Future said:


> FACT: This thread was from 2002, when MJ was looking lackluster while he was playing from the Wizards. Thankfully, that hasn't tarnished his legacy. MJ=GOAT.


You guys are going to laugh at me but I just realized Goat means Greatest of all time. :lol:


----------



## Flash is the Future

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*



liekomgj4ck said:


> You guys are going to laugh at me but I just realized Goat means Greatest of all time. :lol:


It was a while before I realized that, so no sweat


----------



## gi0rdun

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*



liekomgj4ck said:


> I also agree with that.


FACT - You need to ****ing stop bumping old threads.


----------



## jumpkid

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*

There is no such thing as a greatest bball player of all time.. Basketball is a TEAM sport not a single player sport.. It consist of 12 to 15 great bball players to win games or championships not 1.. 

Maybe I can argue with who is the greatest bball team of all time and I believe it is the original US dream team..


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*



jumpkid said:


> There is no such thing as a greatest bball player of all time.. Basketball is a TEAM sport not a single player sport.. It consist of 12 to 15 great bball players to win games or championships not 1..
> 
> Maybe I can argue with who is the greatest bball team of all time and I believe it is the original US dream team..


So Jud Buechler and Luc Longley were great players?


----------



## jman23

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*

i got bill russell ,11 nba championships!!!! in 13 years!!!!!!
amazing!!!!!! forget jordan lol!!!


----------



## bball2223

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*

MJ is the GOAT. Kobe is comparable skil wise but MJ is a much better winner and thats what counts.


----------



## luther

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*



IceMan23and3 said:


> So Jud Buechler and Luc Longley were great players?


It's all relative...I'm guessing either would beat you or me.

btw, what's with all the 5-year-old threads being reborn the past few days?


----------



## hroz

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*

I got Bill Russell over Jordan.


----------



## The Mad Viking

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*



OZZY said:


> You could make that argument, but *Bill Russell never* hit winning shots at the buzzer or* pulled his team to a win only using his competitive fire.* Russell was a winner and that is why many say he is better than Wilt, but *Russell did not have that contaguous competitive spirit MJ had,* he could make his team believe they can win any game. Why? Because Michael had there backs, and when needed he could make and take the clutch shots. MJ is the greatest though in my book, and there are m billions that would back me up.


perhaps the most ill-informed post in the history of this forum


----------



## The Mad Viking

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*

My favourite Wilt accomplishment is leading the NBA in assists.

#2 is that he NEVER fouled out of a game. Ever. Despite playing all but 6 minutes of entire season, and blocking about 5 shots per game. 

Wilt was fouled mercilessly throughout his career, so much so that most of the fouls stopped being called. He could have broken most anyone in two, but was a very sportsmanlike player. 

He was extremely skilled, as others have pointed out. He was a phenomenal athlete. He also happened to be a 7 footer.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*

I have Wilt and Magic over Jordan. Jordan was good but what propelled him so much was him getting all the credit for his teams success and being the medias sweet heart to expand basketball revenue to another level. After all, the NBA is a business not just a game. Don't get me wrong Jordan was GREAT, his competitiveness and work ethic was insane but the points Oppression gives on Wilt are just undeniable.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: FACT: Michael Jordan Is Not The Greatest Player Of All Time*



Undefeated82 said:


> *I have Wilt and Magic over Jordan*. Jordan was good but what propelled him so much was him getting all the credit for his teams success and being the medias sweet heart to expand basketball revenue to another level. After all, the NBA is a business not just a game. Don't get me wrong Jordan was GREAT, his competitiveness and work ethic was insane but the points Oppression gives on Wilt are just undeniable.


Ditto.

And yes, Jordan sold more.


----------



## Nate505

*Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

This stems off a debate I had at another board. Well, "debate" might be stretching it but there was a thread about how bad the Heat are doing over there. I replied with a glib comment that maybe the Heat need to retire another legend's number to get the juices flowing. To which I was accused of hating Jordan because he knocked out the Jazz twice in the Finals.

Honestly, I think the Heat retiring Jordan's number is stupid. Not only did he never play for them, he knocked them out of the playoffs a few times. And as a Jazz fan I'll admit I'd be disgusted if the Jazz decided to retire his number. Why retire the number of a guy who was pivotal in denying your franchise a couple of championships? But honestly, while it wouldn't be as disgusting as retiring Jordan's number I'd be fairly disgusted if the Jazz retired Magic's number or Bird's number or Wilt's number or whoever. Nothing against those guys, but they didn't play for the Jazz. And if I were a Warriors fan or a Kings fan or a fan of a team who Jordan didn't eliminate in the Finals I'd still feel the same way.

But maybe I'm in the minority. Are there those of you out there who are fans of different teams would would like to see your team retire Jordan's number?


----------



## Flash is the Future

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

Jordan's number should've been retired league wide when he left for the final time in 2003 IMO.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

Jordan's done a lot for the game, but placing him on a pedestal over Bird, Magic, Big O, Kareem, all the other all-time greats? I don't think so. I wouldn't have a huge problem, but it doesn't really make sense to me, he played for the Bulls and Wizards, what good has he done for the Rockets?


----------



## Nate505

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*



Flash is the Future said:


> Jordan's number should've been retired league wide when he left for the final time in 2003 IMO.


Fair enough. I disagree with that as well (Jordan may have been the greatest ever, but he wasn't that much better than Magic or Bird or Kareem or Wilt to get his jersey retired league wide over them), but at least if the league forced it upon everyone it would be easier to swallow.


----------



## seifer0406

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

No, I don't think it fits the purpose of retiring jerseys. It's suppose to be a way for fans to remember players from *their* team.


----------



## Pimped Out

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*



Flash is the Future said:


> Jordan's number should've been retired league wide when he left for the final time in 2003 IMO.


mmmmmmmm, no


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

The only number that is league-wide retired numbers are Jackie Robinson's and Wayne Gretzky's. Those are fitting, but I don't think MJ would fit given Magic and Bird's popularity driving the NBA at the same time.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

Michael Jordan has done nothing for the Lakers, so no, I don't want his jersey retired in STAPLES Center.

In Chicago, sure. Anywhere else is pointless.


----------



## croco

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

No and I could't come up with any reason why to do it.


----------



## CaliCool

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

You think Wiz would retire his numero?


----------



## afobisme

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

having other teams retire his number is pure stupidity. might as well name the league after him.


----------



## mediocre man

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

What the hell has Jordan done to get his number retired league wide? Don't get me wrong. I realize he is the greatest player of his generation, but it's not like he's Jackie Robinson or anything. He didn't die tragicaly. He wasn't the voice of a certain people either. 

He was in fact a great basketball player, and nothing else. Might as well retire Wilt's number too. Hell even George Mikan's number should be retired using this logic. Bill Russell, Magic, Bird, Kobe maybe someday, Shaq.


----------



## unluckyseventeen

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

I think retiring it in every arena is kind of unnecessary. Let the legend live through word of mouth and media out there, instead of hanging a number in every NBA arena.


----------



## edwardcyh

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

I'd like Dallas to retire numbers for 40-50 players (maybe even Shaq, Dikembes or GP after they walk away)....



.... that would at least give them something to hang in the rafters.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

As a Bulls and Jordan fan, I agree that retiring Jordan's jersey in any other stadium is rather pathetic (and hilarious). It reeks of desperation and seems more like a stupid PR move than anything else.

What's even funnier is that it doesn't even mean anything. Retiring a number usually has some significance with a franchise, the franchise's fans, and the player. And A.) I'm sure none of the Heat players and front office members really give a **** that Jordan's number is in the rafters. It's not like they can take pride in it. 50 years from now no Heat player is going to be like, "Damn, I play for the same team that retired Micheal Jordan's jersey but never had him on the roster." B.) I'm positive that the Heat fans could care less. and C.) As far as the player, the most Jordan could have gotten out of it was a slight sense of flattery, but honestly, I'm sure he could give a ****. So in the end it becomes a move that the franchise, the fans, and the player could care less about.

Pointless, to say the least.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

Can you imagine if they retired his number in say, Cleveland, where he was basically satan for 10 plus years. Or if his number was retired in Detroit.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

hell no


----------



## JT

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

my answer to this would be no for the simple fact that no matter how great Jordan was (and he was the undeniable paragon of basketball greatness), he is still a man, made of flesh and blood. there is no reason to deify any human in this way, whether it be Jackie Robinson, Gretsky, or whoever.



Nate505 said:


> Fair enough. I disagree with that as well (Jordan may have been the greatest ever, but he wasn't that much better than Magic or Bird or Kareem or Wilt to get his jersey retired league wide over them)


yes, he was.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*



Nate505 said:


> But maybe I'm in the minority. Are there those of you out there who are fans of different teams would would like to see your team retire Jordan's number?


No, but i would like to see all teams retire Magic Johnson's and Wilt Chamberlains' numers.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*



Flash is the Future said:


> Jordan's number should've been retired league wide when he left for the final time in 2003 IMO.


Not a surprise that a Heat fan is voicing this opinion.

Retiring the jersey of a guy that never played for your team is as pathetic as it gets. And here I thought hanging division championship title banners was pathetic.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*



Jamel Irief said:


> Not a surprise that a Heat fan is voicing this opinion.
> 
> Retiring the jersey of a guy that never played for your team is as pathetic as it gets. And here I thought hanging division championship title banners was pathetic.


Why is it so pathetic? I don't agree with it but why's it "as pathetic as it gets"?


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*



NewAgeBaller said:


> Why is it so pathetic? I don't agree with it but why's it "as pathetic as it gets"?


It reeks of a team not having an idenity or culture of their own so they steal other peoples. When you play the bulls and wizards it's pretty embarassing that you have their jersey in your rafters. They are supposed to be the enemy!

Why not honor those great bulls teams and raise their banners too?


----------



## Krstic All-Star

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*



futuristxen said:


> Can you imagine if they retired his number in say, Cleveland, where he was basically satan for 10 plus years. Or if his number was retired in Detroit.


Putting it up at MSG would be on par with Isiah's tenure as coach...

I feel the need to bathe after thinking that.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*



Jamel Irief said:


> It reeks of a team not having an idenity or culture of their own so they steal other peoples. When you play the bulls and wizards it's pretty embarassing that you have their jersey in your rafters. They are supposed to be the enemy!
> 
> Why not honor those great bulls teams and raise their banners too?


I really dont think its that bad but ok.. yea I don't see the point in it though..


----------



## Nate505

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*



sherako said:


> yes, he was.


How exactly was he far superior to Magic or Bird or KAJ or Wilt? One could argue that he was better, but he wasn't on a whole other level of those guys. Those guys were pretty freaking dominant as well during their careers.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

No, but it is. What did he do for the Heat besides kill us for years? ermm.


----------



## Cap

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

Absolutely not, no point or sense in doing so.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

No. It's absolutely pathetic. Honoring players outside your own franchise seems anti-competitive to me. I mean, who cares if this guy prevented us from winning a title for a decade, we'll honor him because he meant so much to the league and people enjoyed watching him kick our butts. Stupid.


----------



## Feed_Dwight

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*



edwardcyh said:


> I'd like Dallas to retire numbers for 40-50 players (maybe even Shaq, Dikembes or GP after they walk away)....
> 
> 
> 
> .... that would at least give them something to hang in the rafters.


...and no numbers left for their active players. lol.


----------



## gi0rdun

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

Retire him in Cleveland!


----------



## ballocks

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

i've always felt that teams retiring numbers is a bit shortsighted- to do it for players who didn't even play for those teams is worse. if we continue to retire numbers in general, where will that leave us in 50 to 100 years? i know it's obvious, but what numbers will be left? (i see the same idea with expansion: how far can you expand before you have teams that haven't won a title in 500 years? it might be paranoid but it's also a _sensible_ fear, imo. you'll have to draw the line _somewhere_.) 

what's more, by that point it will have lost all meaning too- as if it hasn't already. teams seem to be retiring numbers under their breath now- as if it's something they _have_ to do, as opposed to _want_ to do.

when it comes to michael, go ahead and do something to recognize the impact he had on the game but don't retire his number everywhere. that's too common. it's a perfunctory compliment more so than it is genuine. we endure enough of those disingenous exercises everywhere. retiring numbers has run its course, imo. it might be time to get creative again.

peace


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*



Jamel Irief said:


> It reeks of a team not having an idenity or culture of their own so they steal other peoples. When you play the bulls and wizards it's pretty embarassing that you have their jersey in your rafters. They are supposed to be the enemy!
> 
> Why not honor those great bulls teams and raise their banners too?


Let's not get into the fact that having Jordan's jersey retired as a Wizard in your own stadium is already pathetic in it's own right.


----------



## narrator

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

No point retiring the number of someone who didn't play for you. The Heat are lame for doing it. If the NBA retired 23 across the league, that's something different.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

Wait. Miami has Jordan's WIZARDS jersey up there too?

WOW


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*



ballocks said:


> i've always felt that teams retiring numbers is a bit shortsighted- to do it for players who didn't even play for those teams is worse. if we continue to retire numbers in general, where will that leave us in 50 to 100 years? i know it's obvious, but what numbers will be left? (i see the same idea with expansion: how far can you expand before you have teams that haven't won a title in 500 years? it might be paranoid but it's also a _sensible_ fear, imo. you'll have to draw the line _somewhere_.)
> 
> what's more, by that point it will have lost all meaning too- as if it hasn't already. teams seem to be retiring numbers under their breath now- as if it's something they _have_ to do, as opposed to _want_ to do.
> 
> when it comes to michael, go ahead and do something to recognize the impact he had on the game but don't retire his number everywhere. that's too common. it's a perfunctory compliment more so than it is genuine. we endure enough of those disingenous exercises everywhere. retiring numbers has run its course, imo. it might be time to get creative again.
> 
> peace


What are the odds every team, or even ONE team, has 100 numbers retired? That's 100 HOF players right there who have left an indelible impact on a particular team.


----------



## DaRizzle

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*

The Only number in ANY sport that should be Jackie Robinson's.


----------



## King Bosh

*Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*

On another web site I was reading a debate about the greatest basketball of all-time. During that debate the discussion turned to who had a better prime, Bird or Jordan. I thought it was an interesting debate because I saw both players at the height of their powers and they were the two best I have ever wtinessed. I thought I'd shed some light on that debate and bring it here.

A NBA players prime normally lasts 7-8 seasons. Most guys reach their prime at about 25 and stay at that level until about 32. I went from Bird's rookie year until 1987-88 the year he had the injury that would eventually force him to retire and Jordans rookie year until his first retirement. Here is a statistical breakdown of each:

Michael Jordan
YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG 
84-85 CHI 82 82 38.3 .515 .173 .845 2.00 4.50 6.50 5.9 2.39 .84 3.55 3.50 28.2 
85-86 CHI 18 7 25.1 .457 .167 .840 1.30 2.30 3.60 2.9 2.06 1.17 2.50 2.60 22.7 
86-87 CHI 82 82 40.0 .482 .182 .857 2.00 3.20 5.20 4.6 2.88 1.52 3.32 2.90 37.1 
87-88 CHI 82 82 40.4 .535 .132 .841 1.70 3.80 5.50 5.9 3.16 1.60 3.07 3.30 35.0 
88-89 CHI 81 81 40.2 .538 .276 .850 1.80 6.20 8.00 8.0 2.89 .80 3.58 3.00 32.5 
89-90 CHI 82 82 39.0 .526 .376 .848 1.70 5.10 6.90 6.3 2.77 .66 3.01 2.90 33.6 
90-91 CHI 82 82 37.0 .539 .312 .851 1.40 4.60 6.00 5.5 2.72 1.01 2.46 2.80 31.5 
91-92 CHI 80 80 38.8 .519 .270 .832 1.10 5.30 6.40 6.1 2.28 .94 2.50 2.50 30.1 
92-93 CHI 78 78 39.3 .495 .352 .837 1.70 5.00 6.70 5.5 2.83 .78 2.65 2.40 32.6 



YEAR TEAM MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OFF DEF TOT AST STL BLK TO PF PTS 
84-85 CHI 3,144 837-1,625 9-52 630-746 167 367 534 481 196 69 291 285 2,313 
85-86 CHI 451 150-328 3-18 105-125 23 41 64 53 37 21 45 46 408 
86-87 CHI 3,281 1,098-2,279 12-66 833-972 166 264 430 377 236 125 272 237 3,041 
87-88 CHI 3,311 1,069-1,998 7-53 723-860 139 310 449 485 259 131 252 270 2,868 
88-89 CHI 3,255 966-1,795 27-98 674-793 149 503 652 650 234 65 290 247 2,633 
89-90 CHI 3,197 1,034-1,964 92-245 593-699 143 422 565 519 227 54 247 241 2,753 
90-91 CHI 3,034 990-1,837 29-93 571-671 118 374 492 453 223 83 202 229 2,580 
91-92 CHI 3,102 943-1,818 27-100 491-590 91 420 511 489 182 75 200 201 2,404 
92-93 CHI 3,067 992-2,003 81-230 476-569 135 387 522 428 221 61 207 188 2,541 


Larry Bird

YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG 
79-80 BOS 82 82 36.0 .474 .406 .836 2.60 7.80 10.40 4.5 1.74 .65 3.21 3.40 21.3 
80-81 BOS 82 82 39.5 .478 .270 .863 2.30 8.60 10.90 5.5 1.96 .77 3.52 2.90 21.2 
81-82 BOS 77 58 38.0 .503 .212 .863 2.60 8.30 10.90 5.8 1.86 .86 3.30 3.20 22.9 
82-83 BOS 79 79 37.7 .504 .286 .840 2.40 8.60 11.00 5.8 1.87 .90 3.04 2.50 23.6 
83-84 BOS 79 77 38.3 .492 .247 .888 2.30 7.80 10.10 6.6 1.82 .87 3.00 2.50 24.2 
84-85 BOS 80 77 39.5 .522 .427 .882 2.10 8.50 10.50 6.6 1.61 1.23 3.10 2.60 28.7 
85-86 BOS 82 81 38.0 .496 .423 .896 2.30 7.50 9.80 6.8 2.02 .62 3.24 2.20 25.8 
86-87 BOS 74 73 40.6 .525 .400 .910 1.70 7.50 9.20 7.6 1.82 .95 3.24 2.50 28.1 
87-88 BOS 76 75 39.0 .527 .414 .916 1.40 7.80 9.30 6.1 1.64 .75 2.80 2.10 29.9 


YEAR TEAM MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OFF DEF TOT AST STL BLK TO PF PTS 
79-80 BOS 2,955 693-1,463 58-143 301-360 216 636 852 370 143 53 263 279 1,745 
80-81 BOS 3,239 719-1,503 20-74 283-328 191 704 895 451 161 63 289 239 1,741 
81-82 BOS 2,923 711-1,414 11-52 328-380 200 637 837 447 143 66 254 244 1,761 
82-83 BOS 2,982 747-1,481 22-77 351-418 193 677 870 458 148 71 240 197 1,867 
83-84 BOS 3,028 758-1,542 18-73 374-421 181 615 796 520 144 69 237 197 1,908 
84-85 BOS 3,161 918-1,760 56-131 403-457 164 678 842 531 129 98 248 208 2,295 
85-86 BOS 3,113 796-1,606 82-194 441-492 190 615 805 557 166 51 266 182 2,115 
86-87 BOS 3,005 786-1,497 90-225 414-455 124 558 682 566 135 70 240 185 2,076 
87-88 BOS 2,965 881-1,672 98-237 415-453 108 595 703 467 125 57 213 157 2,275 

What I got out of this is that both players had truly amazing primes. Jordan scored more but also took alot more shots. Jordan high water mark was a whopping 2,279 fg's attempted while Bird's was 1,760 and difference of 519 shots taken or 6 more shots per game then Bird. As you can plainly see Jordan took ALOT more shots then Bird did. The most shots Bird ever took was 1,760, Jordan took more shots then that every single year but one. Bird took over 20 shot per game only once in his prime while Jordan did all but one season. So sure Jordan scored more but he shot alot more then Bird ever did too. It's kind of hard for me to say Jordan was better because he scored more because he shot alot more while Bird got his teammates involved more. If Bird shot as much as Jordan did who is to say he doesn't score just as much or more since he was a better 3pt shooter and was better from the charity stripe and his FG% was comparable. Jordan scored more but he should have because he shot ALOT more in just about the same amount of PT. What that boils down to to me is that Bird had a better supporting cast so he didn't have to shoot as much as Jordan with a lesser supporting cast. I dont concider Jordan necessarilly a gunner because he had no choice and the Triangle offense put the ball in his hands 99% of the time. Also no one else on his roster could pick up the slack if he scored less. Bird's situation was much different. I was truly suprised to see that Jordan so many more shots then Bird did every single season...I mean ALOT more.

Bird rebounded alot better as he should have being a forward but his 10.0reb per game as a small forward is worth noting foresure especially since he played in a front court with two other guys who got 10+ rebounds per night in Parish and McHale.

Jordan a guard didn't average more assists then Bird which is kind of a surprise especially since Jordan had the ball in his hands every single trip down the floor. If you saw both play Bird was by far the better passer anyway. Jordan's fg% was a bit higher and as a guard that is also kind of surprising. . Bird also had less turnovers but also less steals. Bird's teams were title contenders every single year of his prime, Jordan's weren't. It took Jordan 6 years to be the leader of a legit title contender and that only happened after Bird, Magic and their awesome teams of the 80's had faded. Bird and Magic were the leaders of title contenders from their rookie years and for the next decade.

I still think Jordan was the greatest of all-time but it can be argued that Bird had as good a prime as Jordan did. Jordan had his arguably best season statistically during the latter end of Bird's prime in 1986-87...Bird also had his best statistical year that season and reached the finals losing to the Laker's while Jordan got knocked out in the 1st round by....Boston.

During that debate someone said Jordan was the most hyped player of all-time but not the best. I agree and disagree. Sure he was by far the most hyped player of all-time. His prime coincided with the boom of Sports journalism on TV. During Bird's era the NBA chose to hype the great teams, during Jordan's era the NBA chose to hype Jordan. Jordan was also probably slightly better then Bird IMO but not by much and only because he was a better one on one defender while Bird was probably the better team defender. Jordan was the most hyped player of all-time by a long shot but he was also the best of all-time but not really by as much as the media would like you to think. I'd put Jordan #1A in my lifetime with Bird #1B. Bill Russell might belong above both.

So everybody who says Jordan was the greatest of all-time by a long shot need to take a closer look. Bird belongs in that conversation foresure. Normally when this conversation comes up 7 names are involved. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Chamberlain & Robertson....the Magnificant Seven. All were amazing and seperated themselves from the rest. An interesting observation about those seven is that all of them EXCEPT Jordan had another of those Magnificant Seven competing against them during the bulk and best years of their primes. Bird had Magic, Russell had Wilt etc... Jordan had no such player during his best years meaning he didn't have that other all-time great waiting for him in the playoffs or the finals. 

Magic Johnson belongs in that conversation as well because he led his team to an astounding 9 trips to the finals during the greatest, most competitive era of the NBA. Jordan won 6 titles but in a lesser era because the competition wasn't as good as what Magic and Bird faced on a nightly basis.

A funny tid bit is that recently when Bird was asked if Jordan was the greatest of all-time Bird with a devilish smirk quipped "he is in the top two"...guess who the other one was...haha...thats Larry Bird still competitive and cocky after all these years.

BTW...anyone remeber the McDonalds commercials Bird and Jordan did together? They played Horse at the Boston Garden and were banking shots off of the scoreboard then off the floor and calling every shot. Great stuff...classic.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Brid's prime*

Stats are fine and all, but question "prime" and throwing "stats" in the conversation, Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson win the conversation by a landslide ...

That being said, and regarding Bird and Jordan, i'd pick a prime Larry Bird over a prime Michael Jordan.
Why?
Because:
1- I think one-on-one defense is overrated;
2- No one ever said to Larry Bird "the league changed the rules to stop me; the league changed the rules to help you" (or something like that;
3- Larry, in his prime, was a pure beast: not in the manner that he was an offensive juggernault, but in the manner that he mastered all aspects in the game AND had one of the gratest basketball minds around; 
4- His passing was of absolute briolliance, and rivaleed by few others (disregarding position): i'm not talking driving-and-dishing-and-waiting-for-the-teammate-to-hit-the-jumper assist, but creating for others almost out of the blue;
5- eventhough he was almost always the best player between the 10 squaring up, he was a consumate team-player: no ball-hogging, no going solo, keeping the ball moving, etc. etc..

What Bird had against him was his injuries. I've often said had Larry Bird been healthy for a few more years, Jordan's (and maybe Magic's) place on the Greatest Of All Times players list would be in jeopardy.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Brid's prime*



King Bosh said:


> Bird took over 20 shot per game only once in his prime while Jordan did all but one season.


Bird took over 20 FGA/gm 4 times in his career, not once. Three of those 4 times were what could be considered his "prime."



> So sure Jordan scored more but he shot alot more then Bird ever did too. It's kind of hard for me to say Jordan was better because he scored more because he shot alot more while Bird got his teammates involved more. If Bird shot as much as Jordan did who is to say he doesn't score just as much or more since he was a better 3pt shooter and was better from the charity stripe and his FG% was comparable.


This is a simplistic analysis. No doubt Bird was an elite scorer who could have scored more if called upon. But on a less stacked squad he would see more defensive attention (as Jordan did), and would not maintain the same efficiency. The higher volume alone would adversely affect his efficiency. You can't assume that a guy averaging 26-27 ppg on an incredibly deep team would have the same efficiency at 31-34 ppg on a less talented team. Doesn't work that way. 

That said, Jordan's offensive edge isn't astronomical or anything, but it's there. Bird is probably the second most skilled scorer (comprising all scoring-related skills -- shooting, posting, slashing, footwork, off the ball movement, reading defenses etc.) I've ever seen behind Jordan, and possibly the best all-around offensive player I've ever seen (though Jordan's passing is notoriously underrated).



> I dont concider Jordan necessarilly a gunner because he had no choice and the Triangle offense *put the ball in his hands 99% of the time*





> Jordan a guard didn't average more assists then Bird which is kind of a surprise *especially since Jordan had the ball in his hands every single trip down the floor*.


Umm, no he didn't. Not after '89, at least. Jordan also played in an equal opportunity offense with no defined PG role, and had far less talented players to pass to. His team was also consistently at the bottom of the league in terms of pace. That said, Bird was the better passer, but not to the extent that the numbers indicate. Like I said above, Jordan's passing is extremely underrated. 



> Bird also had less turnovers but also less steals


Correction, Bird had *more* turnovers and less steals. Bird's TO average from '84-'88 (generally considered his prime) was 3.08 TO. Jordan's TO average from '89-'93 was 2.86 TO. Not a huge difference by any means, and Bird's number is excellent given his scoring and passing, but your statement is inaccurate.



> Bird's teams were title contenders every single year of his prime, Jordan's weren't. It took Jordan 6 years to be the leader of a legit title contender and that only happened after Bird, Magic and their awesome teams of the 80's had faded. Bird and Magic were the leaders of title contenders from their rookie years and for the next decade.


This sounds like a bit of hating imo. First you say that Bird's team was a legit title contender every year of his prime, but then start the clock for Jordan on his team's title contention at his rookie year (in which case it took him 6 years to get there, as you said). It didn't take Jordan 6 years _during his prime_ to be on a legit contender, it took about 2 years, since his prime started in '89.

Your last comment is also a bit much. Jordan had nowhere near the talent around him that Bird and Magic stepped into as rookies and/or shortly thereafter. Even at their peak, the Bulls were not as talented and deep as LA or Boston. And, to be honest, Jordan did have to go through a learning curve about how to best integrate limitless abilities within a team concept, whereas Magic and Larry were both better in that regard earlier, to their credit.



> Jordan was also probably slightly better then Bird IMO but not by much and only because he was a better one on one defender while Bird was probably the better team defender.


Bird was not a better team defender than Jordan in any way, shape, or form. He was an excellent team defender, and it was by far the strongest part of his defensive game (enough to garner him some defensive second team nods), but not better than Jordan. It was, however, the specific area of defense where Jordan had the smallest edge on Bird, since Bird was excellent in that respect himself. In every other area -- one on one defense, disruptive defense, off the ball/help defense, fastbreak defense -- Jordan easily outclasses Bird.


As for the topic question, well, without breaking things down in depth (which I can certainly do if need be), allow me to state the following facts:

*1)* By the numbers (any aggregate metric or stat you can look at), Jordan's prime ('88-'93) is greater than Bird's prime. Period. Don't make me prove it. Jordan's unquestionable defensive superiority in every respect (not just 1-on-1 defense) and defensive impact makes it even clearer than the numbers suggest. Again, this is not to say the gap is large by ANY stretch of the imagination, but it's there.

*2)* Bird *definitely* moves up a spot (at the very least) in the all-time rankings if we rank based on absolute prime as opposed to careers. He passes at least Magic if we rank by primes, and possibly Kareem based on Bird's intangibles (leadership/clutchness).



PauloCatarino said:


> What Bird had against him was his injuries. I've often said had Larry Bird been healthy for a few more years, Jordan's (*and maybe Magic's*) place on the Greatest Of All Times players list would be in jeopardy.


:lol:

Laker fans...

Bird's prime easily > Magic's prime.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Brid's prime*



Jordan23Forever said:


> :lol:
> 
> Laker fans...
> 
> Bird's prime easily > Magic's prime.


Oh. It's you again. Haven't we've gobe through this already? 

Laker fans? Nice jabm for someone who is sporting the name *Jordan23Forever*!!! :lol:


----------



## Najee

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*

I'll take Michael Jordan in his prime over Larry Bird in his prime. It's based partly on the fact that Jordan came into the NBA during Bird's prime (the 1984-85 season). 

As a rookie, Jordan's athleticism and ability to create separation allowed him to score seemingly at will even when it was common knowledge he was (at that time) a rather shaky outside shooter. As great and as savvy as Bird was, Jordan improved his jumper in his prime and developed some of the same qualities Bird had.

Also, Jordan didn't have the teammates Bird had. So even though it was common knowledge that Jordan mostly had to beat his opponents, teams simply couldn't stop him. He pretty much HAD to score 30 per game and he did it with such efficiency and volume that an off-night for him was scoring 25 points.


----------



## Dragnsmke1

*Re: Poll: Would You Want Your Team to Retire Jordan's Number?*



ballocks said:


> i've always felt that teams retiring numbers is a bit shortsighted- to do it for players who didn't even play for those teams is worse. if we continue to retire numbers in general, where will that leave us in 50 to 100 years? i know it's obvious, but what numbers will be left? (i see the same idea with expansion: how far can you expand before you have teams that haven't won a title in 500 years? it might be paranoid but it's also a _sensible_ fear, imo. you'll have to draw the line _somewhere_.)
> 
> what's more, by that point it will have lost all meaning too- as if it hasn't already. teams seem to be retiring numbers under their breath now- as if it's something they _have_ to do, as opposed to _want_ to do.
> 
> when it comes to michael, go ahead and do something to recognize the impact he had on the game but don't retire his number everywhere. that's too common. it's a perfunctory compliment more so than it is genuine. we endure enough of those disingenous exercises everywhere. retiring numbers has run its course, imo. it might be time to get creative again.
> 
> peace


we would have teams that look like they came out of Futurama. Players wearing Pi and and square rooted numbers...hey I figure since NBA players are so tall turn the numbers sideways and then you can fit more then 2 numbers on a jersey!


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*



King Bosh said:


> Bird rebounded alot better as he should have being a forward but his 10.0reb per game as a small forward is worth noting foresure especially since he played in a front court with two other guys who got 10+ rebounds per night in Parish and McHale.
> 
> _This is a bit off topic but I wanted to correct a common misperception. McHale was NEVER a 10 rebound a game guy. He only broke 9 rebounds a game once in his entire career and was a below average rebounder for a PF his entire career. People excuse it because he played next to Bird but other "great" PFs that played next to great rebounding 3's didn't have the same weakness. McHale was a great post scorer, a great defender, and his being a black hole is overrated thanks to Danny Ainge's mouth, but he was a pretty passive player on the boards._


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## Najee

*Kevin McHale*

Kevin McHale's seasonal rebounding totals and averages are muted somewhat because he was a sixth man for nine of his 13 NBA seasons, plus he played on a Boston team that had two other strong rebounders. He did average 9 rebounds per game as a sixth man in the 1984-85 season and 9.9 rebounds per game as a starter in 1986-87 (arguably his best season).

Also left out in this conversation is Robert Parish, who was a perennial 10-rebound per game player during Boston's heydays. Even though Larry Bird's last 10-rebound per game season was in 1985-86, he still averaged at least 8.5 boards per game for the rest of his career (injury-ravaged 1988-89 season aside).

King Bosh's comment read to me that on any given night all three members of Boston's famed 1980s frontline was capable of scoring 20 points and grabbing 10 rebounds with regularity, which was true. McHale wasn't a below-average or passive rebounder by any means (if his career was prorated to 36 minutes per game, he was good for 8.5 boards per night). If anything, his numbers were constrained to a degree.


----------



## King Bosh

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Brid's prime*

This messages is for Jordan23Forever. It was too long to quote.

Everybody has a right to there opinion and I share yours that Jordan was the greatest of all-time but not nearly by as much as most people think or the media sells.

Oh and I started both players at their rookie year. I didn't think it was fair to start Bird as a rookie and then Jordan later.

Take a good long look at the roster Bird led to 61 wins as a rookie. Mostly the same roster won 29 games the previous year without Bird. Bird didn't always have better players surrounding him then Jordan did...just most of the time. He won no matter who was in his supporting cast and that is a huge point in Bird's favor IMO.

I hear alot of people talking like Jordan was on a planet all by himself and no one ever approached being as great as he was or belong in the same conversation as him and that is completely ridiculous. I watched Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and when they were on top of their games they were absolutely in Jordans league and better at some important areas of the "TEAM" game then Jordan ever was. He was a better scorer but there is a whole lot more to offensive basketball then scoring. Alot of people refuse to admit Jordan had any short comings because they buy all of the hype hook,line and sinker.

I probably titled this thread wrong because the point I was going after is that those who think Jordan was head and shoulders better then anyone who has ever played are wrong. he probably was the best ever but there have been others who effected games and wins as much as he did. They didn't do so in the same way but they were equally effective.

It can be successfully argued that Bill Russell was the greatest basketball player of all-time. 11 titles in 13 NBA seasons, 2 NCAA Championchips in 3 years and a Gold Medal. He dominated the game on the defensive end as much as anyone ever has offensively. He is probably the greatest rebounder and shot blocker and defensve player of All-time. He was THE reason Red Auerbach created the fast break and no team has run it better then Russell's teams did...not even Magic's Laker's. People who say Russell wasn't a force on offense dont know what they are talking about. Boston won by running teams off the floor and Russell was THE key to that. He also managed to score 15+ per game despite the fact that no team could slow down Boston's fast break and he was the last guy up the floor most times because he started the break with a great out-let pass or blocked shot. Those great Celtic team didn't play too much in the half court because no one could stop them from running which was a direct result of Russell. He also was the only guy who could handle the GREATEST offensive force the league has ever seen in Chamberlain(yes absolutely a bigger offensive force then Jordan).

Jordan's passing might very well be underrated but it was absolutely without a shaddow of a doubt under utilized....by him. There is a fundimental difference between Bird/Magic and Jordan. When Jordan got the ball in his hands he looked to score well above anything else and probably should have concidering his teammates and his ability to score. Bird and Magic looked for the best play or best opportunity for their team to score whether or not it ended up being them taking the shot. 

Jordan also benefitted more then any other player in NBA history by the ref's allowing him to bend the rules while others weren't allowed the same benefit. Thats not his fault but it that makes it no less of a fact. He was allowed to manhandle the guy he was guarding yet rarely ever called for a foul while the guy guarding him couldn't breath on him without being called for a foul. The last thing in the world Mr Stern or the NBA or Television stations covering his games wanted was for Jordan to be on the bench in foul trouble so he rarely if ever was. It's kind of like Tiger Woods in that the networks dont ever want him to miss a cut because people will turn the channel. There are no refs in Golf to assist Woods though he does it all on his own....there absolutely were for Jordan. Make no mistake about it. Jordan had more talent then the guys guarding him but he also got more help from the refs then any player in NBA history including all of the other all time greats.


Bird did alot of things Jordan didn't do. As did Magic Johnson. Jordan is the greatest of all-time but the margin is way overexaggerated by a whole lot of people. Basketball as far as I know is still a team game and those two were better team players then Jordan was on his best day.

I may be one of the few people who think this way but I'll take Bird/Russell/Magic at their peak over Jordan at his because they all made the guys around them better basketball players while Jordan made his teammates spectators and carried them rather then making them better. Jordan was the greatest of all-time but if I'm building a team and can have anyone I'll take the guy who is fully immerced in the team concept who might be slightly less talented over a guy like Jordan and if all other things are equal...I'll win more.

Oh and btw, Jordans best Bull's team couldn't handle Bird's best Celtic team. The 1985-86 Celtic's would completely outclass any of Jordan's teams.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Brid's prime*



King Bosh said:


> This messages is for Jordan23Forever. It was too long to quote.
> 
> Everybody has a right to there opinion and I share yours that Jordan was the greatest of all-time but not nearly by as much as most people think or the media sells.
> 
> Oh and I started both players at their rookie year. I didn't think it was fair to start Bird as a rookie and then Jordan later.
> 
> Take a good long look at the roster Bird led to 61 wins as a rookie. Mostly the same roster won 29 games the previous year without Bird. Bird didn't always have better players surrounding him then Jordan did...just most of the time. He won no matter who was in his supporting cast and that is a huge point in Bird's favor IMO.
> 
> I hear alot of people talking like Jordan was on a planet all by himself and no one ever approached being as great as he was or belong in the same conversation as him and that is completely ridiculous. I watched Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and when they were on top of their games they were absolutely in Jordans league and better at some important areas of the "TEAM" game then Jordan ever was. He was a better scorer but there is a whole lot more to offensive basketball then scoring. Alot of people refuse to admit Jordan had any short comings because they buy all of the hype hook,line and sinker.
> 
> I probably titled this thread wrong because the point I was going after is that those who think Jordan was head and shoulders better then anyone who has ever played are wrong. he probably was the best ever but there have been others who effected games and wins as much as he did. They didn't do so in the same way but they were equally effective.
> 
> It can be successfully argued that Bill Russell was the greatest basketball player of all-time. 11 titles in 13 NBA seasons, 2 NCAA Championchips in 3 years and a Gold Medal. He dominated the game on the defensive end as much as anyone ever has offensively. He is probably the greatest rebounder and shot blocker and defensve player of All-time. He was THE reason Red Auerbach created the fast break and no team has run it better then Russell's teams did...not even Magic's Laker's. People who say Russell wasn't a force on offense dont know what they are talking about. Boston won by running teams off the floor and Russell was THE key to that. He also managed to score 15+ per game despite the fact that no team could slow down Boston's fast break and he was the last guy up the floor most times because he started the break with a great out-let pass or blocked shot. Those great Celtic team didn't play too much in the half court because no one could stop them from running which was a direct result of Russell. He also was the only guy who could handle the GREATEST offensive force the league has ever seen in Chamberlain(yes absolutely a bigger offensive force then Jordan).
> 
> Jordan's passing might very well be underrated but it was absolutely without a shaddow of a doubt under utilized....by him. There is a fundimental difference between Bird/Magic and Jordan. When Jordan got the ball in his hands he looked to score well above anything else and probably should have concidering his teammates and his ability to score. Bird and Magic looked for the best play or best opportunity for their team to score whether or not it ended up being them taking the shot.
> 
> Jordan also benefitted more then any other player in NBA history by the ref's allowing him to bend the rules while others weren't allowed the same benefit. Thats not his fault but it that makes it no less of a fact. He was allowed to manhandle the guy he was guarding yet rarely ever called for a foul while the guy guarding him couldn't breath on him without being called for a foul. The last thing in the world Mr Stern or the NBA or Television stations covering his games wanted was for Jordan to be on the bench in foul trouble so he rarely if ever was. It's kind of like Tiger Woods in that the networks dont ever want him to miss a cut because people will turn the channel. There are no refs in Golf to assist Woods though he does it all on his own....there absolutely were for Jordan. Make no mistake about it. Jordan had more talent then the guys guarding him but he also got more help from the refs then any player in NBA history including all of the other all time greats.
> 
> 
> Bird did alot of things Jordan didn't do. As did Magic Johnson. Jordan is the greatest of all-time but the margin is way overexaggerated by a whole lot of people. Basketball as far as I know is still a team game and those two were better team players then Jordan was on his best day.
> 
> I may be one of the few people who think this way but I'll take Bird/Russell/Magic at their peak over Jordan at his because they all made the guys around them better basketball players while Jordan made his teammates spectators and carried them rather then making them better. Jordan was the greatest of all-time but if I'm building a team and can have anyone I'll take the guy who is fully immerced in the team concept who might be slightly less talented over a guy like Jordan and if all other things are equal...I'll win more.
> 
> Oh and btw, Jordans best Bull's team couldn't handle Bird's best Celtic team. The 1985-86 Celtic's would completely outclass any of Jordan's teams.


This post is complete trash, I will refute everything about it, and post in depth regarding Bird, and Jordan.

Just for others who may not know. When Bird has seriously been interviewed, he's never understated the fact Jordan is the best player he's ever seen play the game of basketball or played against. That includes the Magic man we all luv so much. I was lucky enough, and old enough to have watched Bird, and Magic in the 80s. For anyone to say Bird is on the level of Jordan is a very biased Bird fan. Which is fine by me, but there is so much being understated about Jordans game in all of the posts by this poster up above.

I will return.


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Brid's prime*



Jordan23Forever; said:


> :lol:
> 
> Laker fans...
> 
> Bird's prime easily > Magic's prime.


easily? a highly dubious claim from one of the most prejudiced posters on these boards. it galls me to admit, but both jordan and bird were incredible basketball players, and both get to join magic on the hardwood in hell w/ the rest of the GOATs. it is even in the realm of possibilities that they were both "better" than the OG MJ. both exemplify greatness. there is no doubt there. however, the point of the thread starter was to point out how close these guys were in terms of impact on the game (which can still be seen to this day). we get it man. you love jordan. cool. you remind me of the guy that shows up at a concert wearing the shirt of the band that's playing. i mean, duh, we know you're a fan, you're at the freaking show!


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Brid's prime*



King Bosh said:


> This messages is for Jordan23Forever. It was too long to quote.


I like how you didn't address a single point I raised, especially the factual stuff that you were simply *wrong* about (TO's, FGA's etc.). I also like how you didn't admit that you were wrong.



> Everybody has a right to there opinion and I share yours that Jordan was the greatest of all-time but not nearly by as much as most people think or the media sells.


I never said that the gap between peak Jordan and peak whoever is large, only that it is clear and that it exists. Bird is my second favorite player of all time, so I'm not about to rag on him...



> Take a good long look at the roster Bird led to 61 wins as a rookie. Mostly the same roster won 29 games the previous year without Bird. Bird didn't always have better players surrounding him then Jordan did...just most of the time. He won no matter who was in his supporting cast and that is a huge point in Bird's favor IMO.


Mostly the same roster, yes, but Archibald (one of the best PG's ever, mind you) played 11 more games and also 12 more mpg; I think he was injured the year prior. He averaged 11 pts/4.7 ast/45% FG in 24 mpg in '79 and 14.1 pts/8.4 ast/48% FG in 36 mpg in '80. All that Boston team needed was a leader, which Bird was. His impact on the team was huge, but a lot of that was because they had talent, but no focus and leadership. Bird had 6 players besides himself averaging between 11-17 ppg, including a 14/8+ PG and a former MVP and top 50 all-time player in Cowens (certainly on the downside of his career, but still savvy and effective). 



> I hear alot of people talking like Jordan was on a planet all by himself and no one ever approached being as great as he was or belong in the same conversation as him and that is completely ridiculous.


I never said that, personally. Jordan is not on a planet all by himself, but I believe that he separated himself from the other GOAT candidates for different reasons.



> I watched Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and when they were on top of their games they were absolutely in Jordans league and better at some important areas of the "TEAM" game then Jordan ever was.


No question, though your language again betrays your bias. Jordan was very good at the team game after 1989 at the latest. Not Magic/Bird's equal in that regard, perhaps, but then again Magic/Bird weren't Jordan's equal at other things (and not just scoring).



> He was a better scorer but there is a whole lot more to offensive basketball then scoring.


Yeah, there's also playmaking, which Jordan was exceptional at; and distorting defenses, freeing up open men, which he was better than either of them at; and by 1990 he was excellent at getting guys into their rhythm when they needed to be.



> Alot of people refuse to admit Jordan had any short comings because they buy all of the hype hook,line and sinker.


What were his shortcomings? There were players who were better than him at certain aspects of the game, but he basically didn't have any "shortcomings" in an absolute sense. Being worse than another player in some phase of the game doesn't make it a "shortcoming."



> he probably was the best ever but there have been others who effected games and wins as much as he did. They didn't do so in the same way but they were equally effective.


Here are Jordan/Bird's Win Shares, with their rank that season in parentheses:

Win Shares:


*Jordan: *

1985 - 40 (3)
1987 - 43 (4)
1988 - 58 *(1)*
1989 - 59 *(1)*
1990 - 59 *(1)*
1991 - 56 *(1)*
1992 - 51 *(1)*
1993 - 50 *(1)*
1996 - 57 *(1)*
1997 - 52 *(1)*
1998 - 45 (2)


*Bird: *

1980 - 34 (6)
1981 - 36 (5)
1982 - 42 (2)
1983 - 42 (2)
1984 - 43 (2)
1985 - 50 *(1)*
1986 - 49 *(1)*
1987 - 46 (2)
1988 - 46 (2)


Jordan also was better in terms of Player Wins (which have been removed from basketball-reference.com recently for some reason). Jordan had 11 top 2 finishes in PW, including 7 #1 finishes. Pretty sure Bird was consistently top 4 with a couple of #1's, but it wasn't as many as Jordan, nor was it close. Magic's numbers in these categories were below even Bird's. 



> Jordan's passing might very well be underrated but it was absolutely without a shaddow of a doubt under utilized....by him. There is a fundimental difference between Bird/Magic and Jordan. When Jordan got the ball in his hands he looked to score well above anything else and probably should have concidering his teammates and his ability to score. Bird and Magic looked for the best play or best opportunity for their team to score whether or not it ended up being them taking the shot.


No question that they had different philosophies, but a lot of that has to do with their differing abilities as players. Jordan could win more games singlehandedly than Magic or Bird could (Bird was better than Magic in this respect). 



> Jordan also benefitted more then any other player in NBA history by the ref's allowing him to bend the rules while others weren't allowed the same benefit. Thats not his fault but it that makes it no less of a fact.


Please prove this "fact." Thanks.



> He was allowed to manhandle the guy he was guarding yet rarely ever called for a foul while the guy guarding him couldn't breath on him without being called for a foul.


Right. No one could breathe on him. Manhandling. No bias here -- more to the point, nothing which can be substantiated.



> but he also got more help from the refs then any player in NBA history including all of the other all time greats.


You should tell that to the half dozen or so perimeter players over the last few years who all get more foul calls than Jordan did. I guess they don't count as NBA players, though...




> Bird did alot of things Jordan didn't do. As did Magic Johnson.


"A lot" of things? No, they didn't. They did certain things better than Jordan, but nothing that Jordan outright *didn't do*. Don't be insane. And they most certainly did not do "a lot of things" better than Jordan. Certain things, yes, but not a lot; their advantages, which weren't nearly as large as you imply anyway, mostly related to team play.

Jordan also did things that neither of them did or could do.



> Jordan is the greatest of all-time but the margin is way overexaggerated by a whole lot of people. Basketball as far as I know is still a team game and those two were better team players then Jordan was on his best day.


Yeah, okay...

So on average, they were better team players than Jordan *on his best day*? Sounds like someone has been taken for a ride, but it isn't me. 



> I may be one of the few people who think this way but I'll take Bird/Russell/Magic at their peak over Jordan at his because they all made the guys around them better basketball players while Jordan made his teammates spectators and carried them rather then making them better.


How do you figure that Jordan is the ONLY superstar to win multiple championships and he somehow did it without "making his teammates better" in any appreciable way? This is nonsense. Not that I believe in the whole "making his teammates better" thing anyway, but to suggest that Jordan was the only one who didn't, despite winning more rings than either Magic or Bird, is farcical. Maybe he didn't affect his teammates to the degree that Magic/Bird did, but your language is a bit extreme.



> Jordan was the greatest of all-time but if I'm building a team and can have anyone I'll take the guy who is fully immerced in the team concept who might be slightly less talented over a guy like Jordan and if all other things are equal...I'll win more.


Yeah, I guess that's why Jordan has 6 rings to Magic's 5 and Bird's 3 and why Jordan's Bulls hold the best and second best best team records in NBA history. Makes tons of sense.



> Oh and btw, Jordans best Bull's team couldn't handle Bird's best Celtic team. The 1985-86 Celtic's would completely outclass any of Jordan's teams.


I don't necessarily disagree (though again, your hyperbole is amusing), but that's not germane to this topic.


----------



## ThaRegul8r

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Brid's prime*



23AJ said:


> Just for others who may not know. When Bird has seriously been interviewed, he's never understated the fact Jordan is the best player he's ever seen play the game of basketball or played against. That includes the Magic man we all luv so much.


Well actually, what Bird had to say about Jordan in comparison to himself and Magic:



Larry Bird said:


> “Is he better than Magic Johnson was at the peak of his career? No. He’s the best for an overall period of time, maybe, but when you put me, Magic, and Michael at the height of our careers, I don’t think you’d find that big of a difference. Yes, Michael is more spectacular, and Magic could pass a little better than both of us, and you could say this and that about my shooting or my rebounding, but we all had our different parts of our games that made us special.”


To set the record straight.


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Brid's prime*



ThaRegul8r; said:


> Well actually, what Bird had to say about Jordan in comparison to himself and Magic:
> 
> 
> 
> To set the record straight.


again, (i can't believe i'm saying this), but the birdman; the voice of reason. bird, jordan and magic. definitely the holy trinity of my nba fandom.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*

I don't see the point of the OP making a purely statistical argument and leaving out 3 championship years where Jordan led the league in scoring.


----------



## GTA Addict

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*

MJ's playmaking and team play is so underrated. Basketball-reference shows that while they were on the court, MJ assisted on 24.9% of his teammate's field goals compared to Larry Bird assisting on 24.7%. Pippen 23.1%.

Plus, not only was he an elite playmaker but also probably the best ever at taking care of the ball. MJ ranks 21st all-time in fewest turnovers per 100 possessions. Among the 20 players ahead of him, only ONE player averaged more than 3 assists for their career. That player is Michael Finley at 3.3 apg, and he isn't exactly handling the ball as much or creating as many plays as MJ.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*



GTA Addict said:


> MJ's playmaking and team play is so underrated. Basketball-reference shows that while they were on the court, MJ assisted on 24.9% of his teammate's field goals compared to Larry Bird assisting on 24.7%. Pippen 23.1%.


Well, maybe that was because Jordan was a guard and Bird a SF/PF, no? Hence handling the ball more? And, yup, very few players handled the ball more than Michael Jordan...



> Plus, not only was he an *elite playmaker *but also probably the best ever at taking care of the ball. MJ ranks 21st all-time in fewest turnovers per 100 possessions. Among the 20 players ahead of him, only ONE player averaged more than 3 assists for their career. That player is Michael Finley at 3.3 apg, and he isn't exactly handling the ball as much or creating as many plays as MJ.


Please define "elite".


----------



## ThaRegul8r

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*



PauloCatarino said:


> Well, maybe that was because Jordan was a guard and Bird a SF/PF, no? Hence handling the ball more? And, yup, very few players handled the ball more than Michael Jordan...


#1 all-time in usage rate...


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*



ThaRegul8r said:


> #1 all-time in usage rate...


Yet #21 all time in fewest TO's per 100 possessions and #16 all time in terms of fewest TO's per game despite high usage, ballhandling, volume scoring and playmaking while being the focus of every defense he ever faced. Amazing, wouldn't you say?



PauloCatarino said:


> Please define "elite".


This a joke, right? Jordan was probably the best non-PG playmaker (not passer: that honor goes to Bird) of all time. And the list of PG's who were better playmakers (not passers) than him is not the same as every PG who averaged more assists than him.

You're being disingenuous.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Yet #21 all time in fewest TO's per 100 possessions and #16 all time in terms of fewest TO's per game despite high usage, ballhandling, volume scoring and playmaking while being the focus of every defense he ever faced. Amazing, wouldn't you say?


You can't get a turnover when you shoot the ball every freaking time you have it! 



> This a joke, right? Jordan was probably the best non-PG playmaker (not passer: that honor goes to Bird) of all time. And the list of PG's who were better playmakers (not passers) than him is not the same as every PG who averaged more assists than him.
> 
> You're being disingenuous.


So people are defending Jordan's "elite playmaking" skills, are they?
I wonder, then, why Scottie Pippen was credited to be the main distributer and play maker (no, not the guy with the most assists, but the guy who sets the offense and keeps the ball moving) for the Bulls team...


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*



PauloCatarino said:


> You can't get a turnover when you shoot the ball every freaking time you have it!


Very logical. (yes, that's sarcasm)




> So people are defending Jordan's "elite playmaking" skills, are they?


There's little to defend: Jordan was, at the very worst, one of the 3 best non-PG playmakers of all time (and I have no idea who the other two would even be). And not every PG (even elite PG's like Payton, for example) were better playmakers than Jordan.



> I wonder, then, why Scottie Pippen was credited to be the main distributer and play maker (no, not the guy with the most assists, but the guy who sets the offense and keeps the ball moving) for the Bulls team...


Umm, because it was Pippen's role in the offense to bring the ball up much of the time after '92? Pippen was not the main playmaker, he was more of a facilitator. Jordan did a lot more playmaking (including a ton of "pass that leads to the pass that leads to the basket) than Pippen, especially in the halfcourt. Jordan drew a ton more defensive attention both on the perimeter and in the post, and was able to penetrate much more easily, leading to open looks for teammates.

Maybe you're confused about the difference between passing and playmaking, and even more so about the specific role in the triangle offense that Pippen filled after 1992. Pippen actually *was* the guy with the most assists on every championship Bulls team (at least during the regular seasons), but he was never the playmaker that Jordan was. His role was simply different.


----------



## ThaRegul8r

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Yet #21 all time in fewest TO's per 100 possessions and #16 all time in terms of fewest TO's per game despite high usage, ballhandling, volume scoring and playmaking while being the focus of every defense he ever faced. Amazing, wouldn't you say?



Yes. I'm aware of all that. Relax. PauloCatarino said very few players handled the ball more than Jordan, and I said he was in fact actually first all-time in usage rate, meaning that no one handed the ball more than he did. I didn't say it in a pejorative manner, merely as a statement of fact.


----------



## Najee

*Michael Jordan the ball-handler*



PauloCatarino said:


> I wonder, then, why Scottie Pippen was credited to be the main distributer and play maker (no, not the guy with the most assists, but the guy who sets the offense and keeps the ball moving) for the Bulls team...


Personally, like a lot of Scottie Pippen's game, that was slightly overstated. In the triangle offense, Pippen generally brought the ball up the court, handing it off and went to his spot in the triangle offense. Pippen wasn't directing the offense like a point guard, i.e. penetrating and breaking down the team's defense.

Michael Jordan was more of the playmaker in the Bulls' offense for the majority of their championship role, IMO. He had the ball in his hands the most because his ability to separate from defenders allowed him to set up himself or others for shots better than Pippen, who really had no middle game.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Michael Jordan the ball-handler*



Najee said:


> Personally, like a lot of Scottie Pippen's game, that was slightly overstated. In the triangle offense, Pippen generally brought the ball up the court, handing it off and went to his spot in the triangle offense. *Pippen wasn't directing the offense like a point guard, i.e. penetrating and breaking down the team's defense*.
> 
> Michael Jordan was more of the playmaker in the Bulls' offense for the majority of their championship role, IMO. He had the ball in his hands the most because his ability to separate from defenders allowed him to set up himself or others for shots better than Pippen, who really had no middle game.


The thing you described is NOT the definition of playmaking... The drive-and-dish (more or less what you've described) is something every great wing player does, wether it's Jordan, Drexler, Kobe, Wade or Lebron. That doesn't sum what playmaking is. Matbe i'm stumbling into semantics, but for me, a play maker is the floor general, that is, the guy that calls the offensive play, the guy that gets the ball to his teammates like it's supposed to be, the guy that gets the ball moving and the offense in sync. It's just not driving, calling the double team and hit the open man for the jumper.

Once i posted that i would like to see some kind of stats (if there is one available, that is) that would show how much time a player has the ball till he assists somebody. And that's because i don't regard as such a feat to see a guy waste 10/15 seconds on the shot clock while dribbling and trying to go one on one till they can get a step on their defender, drive and dish. I've always prefered guys like Magic, Bird and Stockton, who would waste no time in the offense, and would provide the pass (or the assist) in the shortest period of time.

A playmaker is also the kind of player that will recognize his teammates being in a good spot to score and get them the ball. Notife, for instance, how Magic would give and recieve the ball back from Scott or AC Green while he was waiting for Worthy or Jabbar to get the position in the low block, then giving them the ball... Or how Bird would get the ball in the perimeter and deliver the volleyball pass for a cutting player, in perfect execution...

That to say that, eventhough Jordan was a great handler and good passer, i wouldn't call him an "elite playmaker".


----------



## jokeaward

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*

Jordan's prime was better. No knock against Larry, but he wasn't quite as good. There are some little things, like more games played for Jordan. Bird was healthy, no doubt, but Jordan only missed one game from fall 1986 to spring 1991, and only 6 in the next two seasons before his first exit.

Shots taken... if you can keep shooting at 51-53% and getting a lot of FTs per game, you want to take as many shots as possible. When you say Jordan took 500 more shots he was also scoring 37 per game, so about 8-9 points on 6 shots is not bad at all.

Oh and Kareem, at first Lew Alcindor, had a better prime than Larry Bird... and Bill Russell, and Shaq. He averaged 30-16 on about 55% with 4-5 assists and 3-5 blocks (they've been counted but not on some sites), with only about 3 fouls so more blocks than fouls. I'm making the arbitrary cutoff of his first 6 seasons, the Milwaukee years, though he continued to have a prime of excellent play and health for an eternity. He might have the best, but with, for one, Jordan having those crazy win shares it's tough to say, and MJ did play against better competition.


----------



## Najee

*Re: Michael Jordan the ball-handler*



PauloCatarino said:


> Matbe i'm stumbling into semantics, but for me, a play maker is the floor general, that is, the guy that calls the offensive play, the guy that gets the ball to his teammates like it's supposed to be, the guy that gets the ball moving and the offense in sync. It's just not driving, calling the double team and hit the open man for the jumper.


And in Chicago's offense, that wasn't Scottie Pippen. The triangle offense moved without the offense being run in that fashion; the closest player to your definition of a playmaker on that team was still Michael Jordan.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

if you have to draft a pleyr for your franchise base on skills, talent,athleticism,drive,will,work ethic,freakish ability,size,speed etc.


would you pick michel jordan or lebron james.


lets not talk about achievements of course. just purely on skill level. i mean who really was a much better prospect form the start?


age of both players 21


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Are we drafting Lebron out of high school or at the same age as Michael? As rookies, there was really no comparison b/w Michael and Lebron.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

I'll take Michael... but I don't see how I could really be objective, knowing what I know about what Michael was capable of.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



Brandname said:


> Are we drafting Lebron out of high school or at the same age as Michael? As rookies, there was really no comparison b/w Michael and Lebron.


same age to make it fair


age 21


----------



## bigbabyjesus

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



Dornado said:


> I'll take Michael... but I don't see how I could really be objective, knowing what I know about what Michael was capable of.


^^


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



aznzen said:


> same age to make it fair
> 
> 
> age 21


Then it's probably not a no-brainer.

I was a couple years old when Jordan was drafted. I'm not much of an expert on how he was viewed as a draft prospect. Of course, we also don't know what kind of prospect a 21 year old Lebron would be if he wasn't in the NBA. :whoknows:


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

i actually think i would pick lebron.:worthy:


lebron 21>mj21


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

James! He is the GOAT!


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



Brandname said:


> Then it's probably not a no-brainer.
> 
> I was a couple years old when Jordan was drafted. I'm not much of an expert on how he was viewed as a draft prospect. Of course, we also don't know what kind of prospect a 21 year old Lebron would be if he wasn't in the NBA. :whoknows:


tell us what you _really_ think.


you're a good poster. i know you have a lot of ammo to prove lebron's case.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



PauloCatarino said:


> James! He is the GOAT!


ur in a roll today :lol:


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



PauloCatarino said:


> James! He is the GOAT!


I could imagine your blood boiling when you saw this topic. lol


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



Brandname said:


> I could imagine your blood boiling when you saw this topic. lol


Not really, no.
I found it amusing....
Bronze all the way!


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



aznzen said:


> tell us what you _really_ think.
> 
> 
> you're a good poster. i know you have a lot of ammo to prove lebron's case.


What do I really think? I told you what I think. 

I don't really have anything to prove Lebron's case. He had a lot more hype coming into the NBA because he was younger and the whole sports media craze. But I really don't know how Lebron would be viewed coming into the league at 21. 

Listen, everyone knows I like the Cavs. They're my favorite team, and Lebron's my favorite player. But I'm not going to make any arguments that I don't actually believe. I think it'll probably be a lot closer than people will indicate since it's hard to separate Jordan the prospect from Jordan the legend. 

They're probably pretty close. And neither are a big man, so I can't default to that argument. Michael wasn't known as much of a defender when he was drafted either, so that's kind of out of it. I just don't know.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

I think most GMs would have taken Lebron. 21 would have made him what...a college sophmore or junior? He probably wouldn't have played for the stat suffocating Dean Smith in college. And played, as an NBA ready dominant force against basically boys, in Ohio State or Duke. And I bet would have won at least two NCAA championships. How would they guard Lebron in college? A lot of flopping I presume. But we're talking about the most hyped high school prospect since Kareem. His college career would have been that of a rockstar. Compared to that, Jordan would have been almost a complete unknown. It wouldn't be until you got Jordan into camp in the NBA that you would have realized what you had.

He's very similar to Dwayne Wade in that.

I think where Jordan went in the draft would end up depending on who else was in it, and what the teams needed. Remember Sam Bowie was drafted ahead of him. No one was drafted ahead of Lebron and that was out of high school.

So I think just looking at them as prospects at 21 having no idea what Jordan would become as he neared his 30's...most GMs would take Lebron.

6-8 250 vs. 6-6 190(probably a lot lighter than that coming out of college).


----------



## DuMa

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

i guess if they did it for kobe, its now lebron's turn. problem is that hes not just compared to jordan. you gotta throw in magic as well.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

I think most GMs would have taken Durant over Jordan too at 21.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

In today's NBA what would you say about Jordan's game at 21? A thin slasher with some athleticism and no real J. Not really the playmaker that Wade was in college. You'd pick him and hope he would be as good as Wade. But you're also hoping he's not Ricky Davis.

He might also be compared to Vince Carter without the jumpshot and a little smaller. Teams would wonder probably about his size against a lot of 2's. Kobe could shoot straight over the top of him.

Can you imagine a rookie Jordan going at a prime Kobe? I think Mamba would have many lessons to teach young Jordan.


----------



## KDOS

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

I love Mike and its hard to go against the GOAT. But Lebron's combination of strength,speed,skill and a much more impressive physique would make him a clear cut choice over MJ.


Lebron would dominate the league if he was drafted in 84.


----------



## KDOS

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> In today's NBA what would you say about Jordan's game at 21? A thin slasher with some athleticism and no real J. Not really the playmaker that Wade was in college. You'd pick him and hope he would be as good as Wade. But you're also hoping he's not Ricky Davis.


+1


----------



## bigbabyjesus

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> Can you imagine a rookie Jordan going at a prime Kobe? I think Mamba would have many lessons to teach young Jordan.


Can you imagine prime Jordan going at a prime Kobe? I think his Airness would have many lessons to teach the mamba.


----------



## Kneejoh

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Why stop at Durant, heck most GM's would have probably taken Kwame over Jordan too. Face it if were going to disregard that Jordan was one of the top 2 player of all time, then I'm also going to disregard what Lebron has done in the NBA as well. When you say that Lebron would have destroyed the NCAA you are basing it off what he has done in the NBA. Therefore knowning what I know about Jordan I would take him because I could predict that he would destroy the NBA for 15+ years.


----------



## KDOS

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



bigbabyjesus said:


> Can you imagine prime Jordan going at a prime Kobe? I think his Airness would have many lessons to teach the mamba.


Hand check or no hand check?


----------



## Eternal

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

No brainer... Jordan.


----------



## KDOS

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



thug_immortal8 said:


> heck most GM's would have probably taken Kwame over Jordan too.


Seeing as MJ was the culprit in drafting Kwame, I dont think anyone else would take a chance drafting Kwame that high, much more pick him first overall.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

I vote option 4


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



bigbabyjesus; said:


> Can you imagine prime Jordan going at a prime Kobe? I think his Airness would have many lessons to teach the mamba.


push-off and pull-up.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

I would take Lebron


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

ask me again in 10 years.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



KillWill said:


> ask me again in 10 years.


I.... think you're missing the point of this thread.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



> Hand check or no hand check?


anything you wish

i love Kobe, but Jordan would school him.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Lebron over Jordan, and Magic over anyone!


----------



## Pinball

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

I'd take Lebron at 21. Look at him. He's built like a tank. PF size, PG speed, and SG skills. He can pass, handle, rebound, and play D. He's got more range than MJ did at 21 too. MJ was the better defender and slasher but his perimeter game didn't really evolve until his mid 20s. I'll take the 6-8 250 guy.


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



Brandname; said:


> I.... think you're missing the point of this thread.


i usually miss the point of all of these types of threads. posters (most of whom are too young to even really remember the evolution of michael) pontificating about the the comparable greatness of a kid who is just getting started. god bless the internet.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Hmm..

Some people must be pretty young, or Jordan is becoming underrated as the generations change and move away from MJ's prime playing days.

At any rate here's an example of what MJ was all about in college.

MJ vs Len Bias

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----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

I'm sorry but you people are just not very inytelligent, nor do you know how to read.

BVefore even entering NBA MJ had already won the NCAA championship as a rookie ( and made that final shot ), as well as was the best player on the US Olympic team that won the gold against tougher competition than this crap we have today ( Petrovic, Sabonis, and those other guys played internationally back then ).

Lebron has won nothing, and anybody watching could see the difference in basketball IQ, and that is the most obvious one.

On a similar topic, people comparing Lebron to Magic are complete morons. These are the same people who say Lebron needs help from Jason Kidd, or Cavs need to get a point guard to help Lebron. Did Magic need help as a point guard?

How stupid can it get?


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



Pinball; said:


> I'd take Lebron at 21. Look at him. He's built like a tank. PF size, PG speed, and SG skills. He can pass, handle, rebound, and play D. He's got more range than MJ did at 21 too. MJ was the better defender and slasher but his perimeter game didn't really evolve until his mid 20s. I'll take the 6-8 250 guy.


it's like putting magic's game (or something like that) in malone's body. freak.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



KillWill said:


> i usually miss the point of all of these types of threads. posters (most of whom are too young to even really remember the evolution of michael) pontificating about the the comparable greatness of a kid who is just getting started. god bless the internet.


I actually didn't think the thread topic was as bad as I thought it was going to be. It still sounds as if you don't know what he was asking though.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



23AJ said:


> Hmm..
> 
> Some people must be pretty young, or Jordan is becoming underrated as the generations change and move away from MJ's *prime playing days*.


MJ's prime wasn't before he was drafted.


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird; said:


> I'm sorry but you people are just not very inytelligent, nor do you know how to read.
> 
> BVefore even entering NBA MJ had already won the NCAA championship as a rookie ( and made that final shot ), as well as was the best player on the US Olympic team that won the gold against tougher competition than this crap we have today ( Petrovic, Sabonis, and those other guys played internationally back then ).
> 
> Lebron has won nothing, and anybody watching could see the difference in basketball IQ, and that is the most obvious one.
> 
> On a similar topic, people comparing Lebron to Magic are complete morons. These are the same people who say Lebron needs help from Jason Kidd, or Cavs need to get a point guard to help Lebron. Did Magic need help as a point guard?
> 
> How stupid can it get?



i think i get your point. the bronze star might be the greatest tweener of all time. not quite (yet) the pure scorer (of jordan) or the pure passer (of magic), but some nebulus space in between w/ good chunks of both, but not quite either. and the fact that lebron continues to silence his critics, should give him some credit. very few are thrust into the world with those kind of expectations, and, for the most part, he's actually lived up to the billing.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



Brandname said:


> MJ's prime wasn't before he was drafted.


Never said it was, but MJ was pretty great in college. Hence the video documentation up above. I'll take MJ vs. Bias over the LeBron in high school who played against Melo.
Also read up about what Coach Knight had to say about MJ during his college days playing for the USA mens basketball team who won gold.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



23AJ said:


> Never said it was, but MJ was pretty great in college. Hence the video documentation up above. I'll take MJ vs. Bias over the LeBron in high school who played against Melo.


Ok that sounds fine to me. 

It sounds like some people here are saying they'll take Jordan because he was so amazing in his prime. Which he was, but that's not really supposed to be factored into the question. If you take him based on what he did in college, that answers the question well.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Of course, we're still left with a big question mark when it comes to trying to think about what Lebron would have done between the ages of 18-21. Which makes this question kind of difficult to answer.


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



> and the fact that lebron continues to silence his critics, should give him some credit.


How is he silencing his critics.

The criticism has always been that he could not shoot, and his shooting % from threes and free throws has been going down steadily each season. 
He still hasn't won anything even though he has shooters and the best rebounding front line in the league. MJ would have killed to have a guy like Ilgauskas on the Bulls back then. Bronze doesn't know how to involve his teammates, that's the true story here. He jerks off with the ball way too much, and shoots way too many times. He does not know what to do with what he's got around him. That is the Cavs problem. MJ, Magic, any real superstar would win championships with this team already.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> *How is he silencing his critics.
> *
> The criticism has always been that he could not shoot, and his shooting % from threes and free throws has been going down steadily each season.
> He still hasn't won anything even though he has shooters and the best rebounding front line in the league. MJ would have killed to have a guy like Ilgauskas on the Bulls back then. Bronze doesn't know how to involve his teammates, that's the true story here. He jerks off with the ball way too much, and shoots way too many times. He does not know what to do with what he's got around him. That is the Cavs problem. MJ, Magic, any real superstar would win championships with this team already.


LOL obviously he's not.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



Brandname said:


> Ok that sounds fine to me.
> 
> *It sounds like some people here are saying they'll take Jordan because he was so amazing in his prime. Which he was, but that's not really supposed to be factored into the question.* If you take him based on what he did in college, that answers the question well.


Exactly. I would still take Lebronie.


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

By the way, that North Carolina team would beat team USA with Lebron today.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> By the way, that North Carolina team would beat team USA with Lebron today.


Just....no.


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

:rofl2:


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



> Just....no.


Yes they would.

If I told you that that Greece team would beat team USA, you'd say the same thing, and we know how that ended. 

Some people just never learn.


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird; said:


> How is he silencing his critics.
> 
> The criticism has always been that he could not shoot, and his shooting % from threes and free throws has been going down steadily each season.
> He still hasn't won anything even though he has shooters and the best rebounding front line in the league. MJ would have killed to have a guy like Ilgauskas on the Bulls back then. Bronze doesn't know how to involve his teammates, that's the true story here. He jerks off with the ball way too much, and shoots way too many times. He does not know what to do with what he's got around him. That is the Cavs problem. MJ, Magic, any real superstar would win championships with this team already.


say what you will about the specifics of his game, but the dude is a straight baller, and probably the best physical talent since shaq. best in the game? maybe. better than the "best ever?" give the kid some time. how would you be judged at age 24 in terms of your profession?


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

I remember too much about Jordan to vote otherwise. I simply just cant put LeBron over him. My opinion is too skewed


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Just to show you how little people know about MJ. He was promoted as the new David Thompson, so people knew even his freshmen year he had potential to be what he became. For those who don't know Thompson was one of the greatest leapers and talents, who unfortunatelly snorted too much coke.

The ONLY difference was, there was no ESPN and all the 24/7 media crap, so the hype was not 'round the clock as it is these days.

But, people knew he'd be one of the best ever.


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



> and probably the best physical talent since shaq. best in the game


Connecting that with your sig



> Some people, they play the piano. And some people, they move the piano."


Youi are one the right track. Both Shaq and Lebron are physical enough to move pianos. That's what they would be doing if this league had any real talent like back in the 80s.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> How is he silencing his critics.
> 
> The criticism has always been that he could not shoot, and his shooting % from threes and free throws has been going down steadily each season.
> He still hasn't won anything even though he has shooters and the best rebounding front line in the league. MJ would have killed to have a guy like Ilgauskas on the Bulls back then. Bronze doesn't know how to involve his teammates, that's the true story here. He jerks off with the ball way too much, and shoots way too many times. *He does not know what to do with what he's got around him. That is the Cavs problem. MJ*, Magic, any real *superstar would win championships with this team already*.


With or without P.Jackson?


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> Yes they would.
> 
> If I told you that that Greece team would beat team USA, you'd say the same thing, and we know how that ended.
> 
> Some people just never learn.


That team USA wasn't particularly good. This one was a lot better. And international competition has also improved a great deal.


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird; said:


> Connecting that with your sig
> 
> 
> 
> Youi are one the right track. Both Shaq and Lebron are physical enough to move pianos. That's what they would be doing if this league had any real talent like back in the 80s.


:lol::cheers:

you know deep down i'm really a kareem guy.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



aznzen said:


> if you have to draft a pleyr for your franchise base on skills, talent,athleticism,drive,will,work ethic,freakish ability,size,speed etc.
> 
> 
> would you pick michel jordan or lebron james.
> 
> 
> lets not talk about achievements of course. just purely on skill level. i mean who really was a much better prospect form the start?
> 
> 
> age of both players 21


At age 21 i would probably select almost 10 players before Jordan or Lebron-


----------



## The One

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> Bronze doesn't know how to involve his teammates, that's the true story here....He does not know what to do with what he's got around him. That is the Cavs problem.
> 
> .


your posting rights should be revoked after this comment. Lebron not involving teamates? :no:


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



> With or without P.Jackson?


either way.



> And international competition has also improved a great deal


Anther myth. Soviet union and Yugoslavia, even Spain which made it to the final in '84 against MJ and team USA, were all better than today. They'd kill anybody today. We are taking Sabonis just a couple of years before his prime, Petrovic, and a number of people who you don't know because they didn't come over to the NBA.
Those countries fell apart ( soviets and yugos ), so did the teams, in the 1990s. If the US split up into 6-7 parts, would they be as good as they are now. Of course not, same applies here.

It's a myth. International competition was far stronger in the 1970s and 1980s. It's the USA basketbal that went to hell, that's the ONLY reason they kick our asses these days.




> Magic had Kareem


Yes, over the hill 33-42 year old during the 80s. Karrem was great, but he was at his best in the 70s. He can thank Magic for extending his career. That's what people mean when they say: "Magic made his teammates better"

One of the absolute , sure ways, of knowing that somebody knows nothing about basketball is when they compare Lebron to Magic.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

lol, I can't believe I just argued with kbird.


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



> lol, I can't believe I just argued with kbird.


And lost. But it's OK, everybody does. I, unlike most others have experience and facts to back up my claims, while most others never even heard of David Thompson, or watched Magic play.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> And lost. But it's OK, everybody does. I, unlike most others have experience and facts to back up my claims, while most others never even heard of David Thompson, or watched Magic play.


I think most of us have heard of David Thompson and have seen Magic play, don't worry.


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird; said:


> One of the absolute , sure ways, of knowing that somebody knows nothing about basketball is when they compare Lebron to Magic.


i might not know much about basketball, but all the physical tools are there for this to be true. the mental part? the jury is still out, but one can wish, right?


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



> have seen Magic play


on youtube or xbox legends version of some lame NBA game?



> but all the physical tools are there for this to be true. the mental part?


Magic's game was all about the mental part. Lebron won't get any smarter, so the jury is out and has been since day1.

Magic was Magic even back in highschool. Wherever he went, he stepped up right away and won championships.


----------



## The One

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> And lost. But it's OK.


Why are you still posting? You just said that Lebron does not involve his teamates....WTF!!!!?

Lebron involved his teamates more than Jordan did in his entire career.


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird; said:


> And lost. But it's OK, everybody does. I, unlike most others have experience and facts to back up my claims, while most others never even heard of David Thompson, *or watched Magic play*.


in person? cause i have.


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

I watched Magic and MJ in person ( I was even at a shootaround on the court with MJ ).



> Lebron involved his teamates more than Jordan did in his entire career.


Not true, but Jordan also was better enough to win it on his own.
Lebron doesn't involve anybody, he just jerks off with the ball, everybody sits around watching, then he passes, somebody makes a 25 footer, and Lebron gets an assist. What a farce. He creates ( maybe ) one or two real opportunities per game out of those 7 assists he gets credited with ( as opposed to Nash who gets 12 assists, 4-5 are just passes, but the rest is for real, he does create real no miss opportunities for his teammates, all the time , just like Magic did )


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> on youtube or xbox legends version of some lame NBA game?


I was a fan of Magic Johnson when I was a kid. 



> Magic was Magic even back in highschool. Wherever he went, he stepped up right away and won championships.


Lebron's high school won state championships in 1929, 1984, 2000,2001, and 2003. They're not the historic program that Oak Hill is, yet Lebron propelled them to the championship in 3/4 years he was in high school.

Magic came into the NBA on a slightly more talented team than Lebron did, so let's not fault him for not winning a title just yet.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Again. At 21 Michael Jordan got drafted behind Sam Bowie. At 21 can anyone even imagine there being an arguement for drafting Darko over Lebron? Only someone as clueless as Marc Stein or Chad Ford would do that.


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



> Magic came into the NBA on a slightly more talented team than Lebron did, so let's not fault him for not winning a title just yet.


Yeah, but the crap that is eastern conference today, you can win it with Adam Sandler and Chris Rock as two members of your starting five.

And for those questioning MJ vs Lebron teammate involvement. You do realize that the most assists MJ averaged in a season was 8. Better than any season of Lebron so far, and it's been what?? 5,6 seasons.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> Yeah, but the crap that is eastern conference today, you can win it with Adam Sandler and Chris Rock as two members of your starting five.


And he did.


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Which one was Sandler and which one Rock, I must have missed them?



> At 21 can anyone even imagine there being an arguement for drafting Darko over Lebron?


Lebron is only 18,19,20,21,22,23,24, evry year it's the same excuse for why he's failed to be MJ.

So Darko is only 22. I think he sucks ( he has no brains ) but if you're going to use the age excuse for bronze, why not be consistent, use it with Darko too.


----------



## DuMa

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> Which one was Sandler and which one Rock, I must have missed them?


chris rock = larry hughes.
adam sandler = drew gooden

hughes and gooden has made me laugh with their basketball more than those 2 actors ever did.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



Brandname said:


> And he did.


lol can't argue with that


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



DuMa; said:


> chris rock = larry hughes.
> adam sandler = drew gooden
> 
> hughes and gooden has made me laugh with their basketball more than those 2 actors ever did.


:lol:


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

I could agree with Rock/Hughes ( even though he saves bronze's *** occasionally like in Orlando last night )

but Gooden is a typical example of a player that would do well with somebody who knew how to use him ( think Grant with MJ ), 8-9 boards, can hit mid-range jumpers.
So that I cannot agree with. Just another good role player ruined by an ******* "superstar"

I was saying the same about Boozer a while back, thank good he got out of there so he can play. With Lebron, you'd be talking about Boozer, the same way you talk about Gooden. Lebron ruins other players.


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird; said:


> I could agree with Rock/Hughes ( even though he saves bronze's *** occasionally like in Orlando last night )
> 
> but Gooden is a typical example of a player that would do well with somebody who knew how to use him ( think Grant with MJ ), 8-9 boards, can hit mid-range jumpers.
> So that I cannot agree with. Just another good role player ruined by an ******* "superstar"
> 
> *I was saying the same about Boozer a while back, thank good he got out of there so he can play. With Lebron, you'd be talking about Boozer, the same way you talk about Gooden. Lebron ruins other players.*


wow.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> I watched Magic and MJ in person ( I was even at a shootaround on the court with MJ ).
> 
> 
> 
> Not true, but Jordan also was better enough to win it on his own.
> Lebron doesn't involve anybody, he just jerks off with the ball, everybody sits around watching, then he passes, somebody makes a 25 footer, and Lebron gets an assist. What a farce. He creates ( maybe ) one or two real opportunities per game out of those 7 assists he gets credited with ( as opposed to Nash who gets 12 assists, 4-5 are just passes, but the rest is for real, he does create real no miss opportunities for his teammates, all the time , just like Magic did )


While Jordan did average 8 assists per game that is simply based on the talent around him, that 88-89 Bulls team had a team field goal % of 49%, this seasons Cavs team has a fg% of 43%. 10 out 16 of the 88-89 Bulls team player shot over 46%, and this seasons Cavs team it's 3 out of 16 shooting over 46%. Not to mention Lebron hasn't reached 25 yet or finished his career so there is no way to say he will not average 8 assist for a season in his career.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> I could agree with Rock/Hughes ( even though he saves bronze's *** occasionally like in Orlando last night )
> 
> *but Gooden is a typical example of a player that would do well with somebody who knew how to use him ( think Grant with MJ ), 8-9 boards, can hit mid-range jumpers.*
> So that I cannot agree with. Just another good role player ruined by an ******* "superstar"
> 
> I was saying the same about Boozer a while back, thank good he got out of there so he can play. With Lebron, you'd be talking about Boozer, the same way you talk about Gooden. Lebron ruins other players.


What are you talking about? Gooden is giving 11.3p 8.4reb.
If Lebron is ruining Gooden, the Jordan ruined Grant!


----------



## KillWill

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

so did the suns just add chris farley?


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



> so did the suns just add chris farley?


good one.



> What are you talking about? Gooden is giving 11.3p 8.4reb.
> If Lebron is ruining Gooden, the Jordan ruined Grant!


So, you fell into my trap of admitting that Lebron has better supporting cast than MJ ( at least at that position )?
NOw , we know Ilgauskas is far better than anybody who played center with MJ. Gibson , and other shooters are better or at least as good as guys Jordan had, so basically that all makes up for Pippen.

The conclusion. Lebron does have teammates just as good as MJ did, plays in a far weaker conference, and a weak league, and still can't win.

Thank you for your cooperation. Agrument solved.





> that 88-89 Bulls team had a team field goal % of 49%,


That's what happens when you actually set up your teammates, and not like lebron just jerk off and pass to people 25 feet away from the basket, and they have to throw one up, because lebron wasted 22 seconds of the 24 second shot clock..


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> good one.
> 
> 
> 
> *So, you fell into my trap of admitting that Lebron has better supporting cast than MJ ( at least at that position )?
> NOw , we know Ilgauskas is far better than anybody who played center with MJ. Gibson , and other shooters are better or at least as good as guys Jordan had, so basically that all makes up for Pippen.*
> 
> The conclusion. Lebron does have teammates just as good as MJ did, plays in a far weaker conference, and a wek leagus, and still can't win.
> 
> Thank you for your cooperation. Agrument solved.


are you insane? if you want me to posts stats I will, and trust me you are wrong.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Just alone Gooden this season at 26 is giving 11.3p 8.4reb on .445%fg, Grant at age 26 was putting up 14.2p 10reb on 57.8fg%


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Why are you guys arguing with someone whose introduction to the game was being used as the ball in the Shady Oaks Trailer Park Slam Dunk Contest?


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> Which one was Sandler and which one Rock, I must have missed them?
> 
> 
> 
> Lebron is only 18,19,20,21,22,23,24, evry year it's the same excuse for why he's failed to be MJ.
> 
> So Darko is only 22. I think he sucks ( he has no brains ) but if you're going to use the age excuse for bronze, why not be consistent, use it with Darko too.


The thread asks to compare them as players at 21 with neither having played in the NBA beforehand. So simmer down Yosemite. You're wildly off topic.

This thread isn't, who has had the better career Michael Jordan or Lebron James. It's who at 21 would be drafted first in the NBA.

The only reason you're selecting Jordan is because of his career after he got drafted. He was a very good player at North Carolina. And with the Olympic team. But if you look at the skillset he brought into the NBA, it is pretty antiquated compared to what most guards bring in.

The fact of the matter is, for the most part the perimeter player has evolved a lot since the 80's. And Jordan's skillset that might have been impressive then, is pretty much standard now, thanks in no part to kids growing up and modeling themselves after Jordan.

Again. I don't think Jordan would be drafted ahead of any of the top perimeter players in the league at 21. I think Wade has a lot of the same attributes of a young Jordan, but he had a better midrange game than MJ did at that point, and teams would have wondered whether Jordan would be able to slash as much against today's zone defenses.

How would a 21 year old MJ respond to a team defense like the Spurs? These are things that would begin to seperate out some of the prospects.

I really don't think Jordan would get drafted over even Kevin Durant at 21. Look at what Durant was doing at Texas. People would have attribute Jordan's winning at UNC to the talent around him. I just don't know that Jordan is the first choice anymore when you look at good young perimeter players in their college days. Would Jordan get drafted ahead of Carmelo Anthony? Melo basically won a title on his own. He didn't have Worthy and Perkins on his team.

And you have to think in college Lebron would have been even better than Melo. And he would have been playing for either Ohio State or Duke I imagine.


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



> Just alone Gooden this season at 26 is giving 11.3p 8.4reb on .445%fg, Grant at age 26 was putting up 14.2p 10reb on 57.8fg%


Gooden was averaging 14.4 and 9.5 just 2 years ago.

As for shooting%, I just explained that. He was set up, as in penetrate, draw, and dish to Grant for a wide open 5 footer or a dunk, thus 57%.

Lebron does not do this, he doesn't know how. Give gooden MJ or Magic and watch his shooting go to 60%



> Melo basically won a title on his own


because everybody skipped college for nba, and there was no competition.



> Look at what Durant was doing at Texas


what was he doing? he sucked, just as he sucks now.

Pete Marawich averaged 40+ each year at Louisiana state. So what? does that make him better than MJ?

comparing Wade to Jordan is a joke. A 40 year old Jordan on the wizards had better stats than Wade ( he was still averaging 25+ per game 6 boards and 6 assists, before his knee gave out ).


what's the matter people, can't anybody put 2 and 2 together?


----------



## JT

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

there are so many holes in that post future, it is unbelievable. I am positive that you don't even play the game.


----------



## The One

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> The thread asks to compare them as players at 21 with neither having played in the NBA beforehand. So simmer down Yosemite. You're wildly off topic.
> 
> This thread isn't, who has had the better career Michael Jordan or Lebron James. It's who at 21 would be drafted first in the NBA.
> 
> The only reason you're selecting Jordan is because of his career after he got drafted. He was a very good player at North Carolina. And with the Olympic team. But if you look at the skillset he brought into the NBA, it is pretty antiquated compared to what most guards bring in.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, for the most part the perimeter player has evolved a lot since the 80's. And Jordan's skillset that might have been impressive then, is pretty much standard now, thanks in no part to kids growing up and modeling themselves after Jordan.
> 
> Again. I don't think Jordan would be drafted ahead of any of the top perimeter players in the league at 21. I think Wade has a lot of the same attributes of a young Jordan, but he had a better midrange game than MJ did at that point, and teams would have wondered whether Jordan would be able to slash as much against today's zone defenses.
> 
> How would a 21 year old MJ respond to a team defense like the Spurs? These are things that would begin to seperate out some of the prospects.
> 
> I really don't think Jordan would get drafted over even Kevin Durant at 21. Look at what Durant was doing at Texas. People would have attribute Jordan's winning at UNC to the talent around him. I just don't know that Jordan is the first choice anymore when you look at good young perimeter players in their college days. Would Jordan get drafted ahead of Carmelo Anthony? Melo basically won a title on his own. He didn't have Worthy and Perkins on his team.
> 
> And you have to think in college Lebron would have been even better than Melo. And he would have been playing for either Ohio State or Duke I imagine.


Good post. agreed:cheers:


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> good one.
> 
> 
> 
> So, you fell into my trap of admitting that Lebron has better supporting cast than MJ ( at least at that position )?
> NOw , we know Ilgauskas is far better than anybody who played center with MJ. Gibson , and other shooters are better or at least as good as guys Jordan had, so basically that all makes up for Pippen.
> 
> The conclusion. Lebron does have teammates just as good as MJ did, plays in a far weaker conference, and a weak league, and still can't win.
> 
> Thank you for your cooperation. Agrument solved.


You have no respect for the game. You'll sit here and cry on and on about today's NBA player, in particular James, and talk about how great it used to be. Then you'll turn around and say that Damon Jones is on the same level as BJ Armstrong or even John Paxson. Or god forbid, Steve Kerr, who may have been the best spot up shooter of all time. Just blatant disrespect to the game that came before you. BJ Armstrong was an all-star and proved when he left chicago that he always was a good talent. I think BJ if he had gone to a team that didn't need him as a role player would have been a pretty nice player in the Hersey Hawkins mold.

And then you completely talk **** about Ron Harper by not even bringing him up. Ron Harper won championships with the Bulls and Lakers. And was key to both. He was incredibly underrated in his time. But to say a scrub like Sasha Pavlovic could even stay on the same floor as Ron Harper? That is just blatant disrespect to the game again.

Dennis Rodman? Possibly the greatest rebounder of all-time, and a master of psychological warfare on the court. Winner of a fist full of championships. Varejao has a ways to go catch him. He hasn't even won a rebounding title yet, let alone made all-defense.

The worst of all may be your complete and utter disrespect for Toni Kukoc. Who was a superstar in europe, and would have been a superstar over here if he hadn't sacraficed his game for the greater good of championships. Even then, he was a much more well rounded and able sixth man than Daniel Gibson.

And then let's talk about coaches. How many titles did Jordan win without the Zen master? The Zen Master won many titles without Jordan. But how many did Jordan win without the Zen master? Compare that to Mike, I used to work film for Bernie Bickerstaff, Brown. Who doesn't even have a real offensive system. But then he doesn't have the luxury of a master mind offensive coordinator like Tex Winter.

If I made a team of just players that came off the bench for the Bulls I bet it could win 55 games with Lebron.

Steve Kerr
Lebron James
Toni Kukoc
Bill Wennington
Scott Williams

Look at those shooters!

Show the Bulls some respect. It hurts me as someone who grew up on the Bulls to see you so brazenly dismiss a franchise that for the most part WAS basketball for ten years for most of the world.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



sherako said:


> there are so many holes in that post future, it is unbelievable. I am positive that you don't even play the game.


I am positive that if playing the game made your understanding of the NBA improve, then Greg Anthony and Tim Legler wouldn't be the dumbest sacks of **** on television today.


----------



## The One

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> I am positive that if playing the game made your understanding of the NBA improve, then Greg Anthony and Tim Legler wouldn't be the dumbest sacks of **** on television today.


Might as well add Bill Walton to that Sack Of ****


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Why do people keep promoting Gooden as anything but an average player at best? The dude is one of the most clueless defensive players in the league. There's a reason both teams he's been on have been willing to dump him for salary purposes


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> Gooden was averaging 14.4 and 9.5 just 2 years ago.
> 
> As for shooting%, I just explained that. He was set up, as in penetrate, draw, and dish to Grant for a wide open 5 footer or a dunk, thus 57%.
> 
> Lebron does not do this, he doesn't know how. Give gooden MJ or Magic and watch his shooting go to 60%
> 
> 
> 
> because everybody skipped college for nba, and there was no cmpetition.
> 
> what's the matter people, can't anybody put 2 and 2 together?


Then explain how the next season 92-93 Grants numbers went down to 13.2p 9.5reb on .508%fg and Jordans fg attempts went from 91-92 22.7attempts to 92-93 25.7 attempts, was Jordan trying to ruin Horace Grant?


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Gooden epitomizes 'empty numbers'.

It's clear from reading people's comments about him who actually watches the games and who doesn't.


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

There was no Kukoc during the first three championships.

They had Cartwright which is about 1/3 of Ilgauskas, Grant which is essentially same as Gooden ( a player who needs to be set up to score, and will get his boards )
Gibson is just as good a shooter as Paxon or Kerr later on ). Bring in Varejao, front line on these Cavs is far better than anything those Bulls had. Shooting wise it's the same. Pippen is obviously better than anybody on the Cavs, including Lebron, not going to argue there, but in this league, with what lebron already has around him, any real superstar wins a championship.



> Then explain how the next season 92-93 Grants numbers went down to 13.2p 9.5reb on .508%fg and Jordans fg attempts went from 91-92 22.7attempts to 92-93 25.7 attempts, was Jordan trying to ruin Horace Grant?


With age, Jordan started sucking too, shooting% went down, other bulls suffered too. League was already spiraling down into hell, so even a 1/2assed Bulls managed to win .


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> There was no Kukoc during the first three championships.
> 
> They had Cartwright which is about 1/3 of Ilgauskas, Grant which is essentially same as Gooden ( a player who needs to be set up to score, and will get his boards )
> Gibson is just as good a shooter as Paxon or Kerr later on ). Bring in Varejao, front line on these Cavs is far better than anything those Bulls had. Shooting wise it's the same. Pippen is obviously better than anybody on the Cavs, including Lebron, not going to argue there, but in this league, with what lebron already has around him, any real superstar wins a championship.


You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. You know absolutely nothing about my team.


----------



## The One

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



Brandname said:


> You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. You know absolutely nothing about my team.


I've been saying this all night...kbird has lost his right post...period.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> And lost. But it's OK, everybody does. I, unlike most others have experience and facts to back up my claims, while most others never even heard of David Thompson, or watched Magic play.


Dude, I watched Oscar play and remember Kareem when his name was still Lew. You still know less than nothing about the game of basketball. You prove this when you assert that the European players were better back in the days _when they still smoked two packs a day_. There was nothing that prevented Spanish, Italian, or South American players from competing back in those days except talent. Did your history teacher forget to explain to you that the Iron Curtain started in central Europe?


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> There was no Kukoc during the first three championships.
> 
> They had Cartwright which is about 1/3 of Ilgauskas, Grant which is essentially same as Gooden ( a player who needs to be set up to score, and will get his boards )
> Gibson is just as good a shooter as Paxon or Kerr later on ). Bring in Varejao, front line on these Cavs is far better than anything those Bulls had. Shooting wise it's the same. Pippen is obviously better than anybody on the Cavs, including Lebron, not going to argue there, but in this league, with what lebron already has around him, any real superstar wins a championship.
> 
> 
> 
> With age, Jordan started sucking too, shooting% went down, other bulls suffered too. League was already spiraling down into hell, so even a 1/2assed Bulls managed to win .


You are seriously way off. :no:


----------



## Basel

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

I'm not surprised this thread has gotten 100 replies already.


----------



## kbird

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



> You still know less than nothing about the game of basketball. You prove this when you assert that the European players were better back in the days when they still smoked two packs a day


40 year old Sabonis crawled back to Europe a few years ago, and was voted the best player in Euroleague, he had a few games against MACCABI where he scored around 30and grabbed 25 boards in 25 minutes.

Now imagine Sabonis back in the 1980s in his prime and without injuries. If this crippled 40 year old could do that, what would Sabonis from the 1980s do today.
And he wasn't even the best european player back then.

Anybody claiming they are better players in europe today is insane.

Smoking two packs a day, apparently did more damage to people's offspring then to smokers themselves, because this generation is worse than their fathers.

NBA was much better, Europeans were better. League had less teams, Europe had less countries, concentration of talent was greater.

Also, today with 24/7 media, and all the crap, people think if they are over 6'4" and can jump, they don't need to do much else to make $20 000 000. They have everybody around them talling them this, and they have plenty of proof, just see \who's making that kind of a dough in the NBA, Shaq for sitting on his ***, Starrbury......


----------



## NewAgeBaller

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



Dornado said:


> I'll take Michael... but I don't see how I could really be objective, knowing what I know about what Michael was capable of.


yup.


----------



## garnett

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> 40 year old Sabonis crawled back to Europe a few years ago, and was voted the best player in Euroleague, he had a few games against MACCABI where he scored around 30and grabbed 25 boards in 25 minutes.
> 
> Now imagine Sabonis back in the 1980s in his prime and without injuries. If this crippled 40 year old could do that, what would Sabonis from the 1980s do today.
> And he wasn't even the best european player back then.
> 
> Anybody claiming they are better players in europe today is insane.
> 
> *Smoking two packs a day, apparently did more damage to people's offspring then to smokers themselves, because this generation is worse than their fathers.*
> 
> NBA was much better, Europeans were better. League had less teams, Europe had less countries, concentration of talent was greater.
> 
> Also, today with 24/7 media, and all the crap, people think if they are over 6'4" and can jump, they don't need to do much else to make $20 000 000. They have everybody around them talling them this, and they have plenty of proof, just see \who's making that kind of a dough in the NBA, Shaq for sitting on his ***, Starrbury......


:laugh:


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



Basel57 said:


> I'm not surprised this thread has gotten 100 replies already.


Almost all of them are arguing with Kbird. I think we're all just bored. And need a good Lebron arguement while the positions are strong.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> There was no Kukoc during the first three championships.
> 
> They had Cartwright which is about 1/3 of Ilgauskas, Grant which is essentially same as Gooden ( a player who needs to be set up to score, and will get his boards )
> Gibson is just as good a shooter as Paxon or Kerr later on ). Bring in Varejao, front line on these Cavs is far better than anything those Bulls had. Shooting wise it's the same. Pippen is obviously better than anybody on the Cavs, including Lebron, not going to argue there, but in this league, with what lebron already has around him, any real superstar wins a championship.
> 
> 
> 
> With age, Jordan started sucking too, shooting% went down, other bulls suffered too. League was already spiraling down into hell, so even a 1/2assed Bulls managed to win .


Bill Cartwright was not 1/3 of Illgauskas. Eeesh. I'm embarrased for your understanding of the game. Sure Bill was on in years by that point and not as good a player as he was in his youth. But he did one very key thing that made him extremely valuable to those bulls teams. He completely befuddled Patrick Ewing. 

I think you're also downlplaying John Paxson in those days. Paxson was a solid floor general, who wasn't quite the spot up shooter that Steve Kerr would later be. He was more in the mold of a Brent Price type of player. And could always be counted on in the clutch.

Horace Grant was also a much much much better player than Gooden. If for no other reason than that Grant actually played defense, and played it well. And then on top of that he was as good a shooter from 15 as Gooden, and tended to make much better basketball decisions. I thought back then that Horace really was an all-star level player, this was later vindicated by his years in Orlando where he proved extremely capable.

The first three-peat was certainly the most Jordan-centric of those bulls teams, but they would never have gotten over the hump without the Jordaniarres. Just like for Lebron to win a title, he's going to need his supporting cast to step up. I doubt he'll ever play with someone on the Cavs as good as Scottie Pippen. But if you get the right mix for Lebron's talent, they probably won't need it.

Either way, what Lebron is doing now at this point of his career is historic, tell your grandkids basketball. And it's a shame that you can't enjoy it. But there were plenty of people who didn't enjoy Jordan in his prime either, and who after the fact begrudged him his greatness.

At least I'm old enough and was smart enough even then to recognize Jordan's specialness. As a kid I always thought he was better than Magic and Bird. And to get to see that vindicated in such a grand way was amazing. I feel like I'm getting to see that all over again with Lebron James.

I think if you hate On Lebron now, you probably would have hated on Jordan back then. Magic and Bird were to Jordan what Kobe and Duncan are to Lebron. Great players, who people won't allow Lebron to pass until he truly trounces him.

People really didn't start affording Jordan GOAT status until after Barcelona. Many people in the media said at the time if Jordan didn't win three in a row, then how could he really be considered better than Magic or Larry?

I also wonder how much Jordan benefitted from Bird and Magic bowing out prematurely. If Bird and Magic had been able to play another five years, would they have won more championships eventually? Especially Magic. Many of the key elements of Showtime were still going strong when he retired. You just wonder what would have been there, and how Magic's place in history might have changed. Would we now be talking about Magic as the GOAT if he didn't get Aids and have to retire early?


----------



## King Joseus

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> Bill Cartwright was not 1/3 of Illgauskas. Eeesh. I'm embarrased for your understanding of the game. Sure Bill was on in years by that point and not as good a player as he was in his youth. But he did one very key thing that made him extremely valuable to those bulls teams. He completely befuddled Patrick Ewing.
> 
> I think you're also downlplaying John Paxson in those days. Paxson was a solid floor general, who wasn't quite the spot up shooter that Steve Kerr would later be. He was more in the mold of a Brent Price type of player. And could always be counted on in the clutch.
> 
> Horace Grant was also a much much much better player than Gooden. If for no other reason than that Grant actually played defense, and played it well. And then on top of that he was as good a shooter from 15 as Gooden, and tended to make much better basketball decisions. I thought back then that Horace really was an all-star level player, this was later vindicated by his years in Orlando where he proved extremely capable.
> 
> The first three-peat was certainly the most Jordan-centric of those bulls teams, but they would never have gotten over the hump without the Jordaniarres. Just like for Lebron to win a title, he's going to need his supporting cast to step up. I doubt he'll ever play with someone on the Cavs as good as Scottie Pippen. But if you get the right mix for Lebron's talent, they probably won't need it.
> 
> Either way, what Lebron is doing now at this point of his career is historic, tell your grandkids basketball. And it's a shame that you can't enjoy it. But there were plenty of people who didn't enjoy Jordan in his prime either, and who after the fact begrudged him his greatness.
> 
> At least I'm old enough and was smart enough even then to recognize Jordan's specialness. As a kid I always thought he was better than Magic and Bird. And to get to see that vindicated in such a grand way was amazing. I feel like I'm getting to see that all over again with Lebron James.
> 
> I think if you hate On Lebron now, you probably would have hated on Jordan back then. Magic and Bird were to Jordan what Kobe and Duncan are to Lebron. Great players, who people won't allow Lebron to pass until he truly trounces him.
> 
> People really didn't start affording Jordan GOAT status until after Barcelona. Many people in the media said at the time if Jordan didn't win three in a row, then how could he really be considered better than Magic or Larry?
> 
> I also wonder how much Jordan benefitted from Bird and Magic bowing out prematurely. If Bird and Magic had been able to play another five years, would they have won more championships eventually? Especially Magic. Many of the key elements of Showtime were still going strong when he retired. You just wonder what would have been there, and how Magic's place in history might have changed. Would we now be talking about Magic as the GOAT if he didn't get Aids and have to retire early?


Random thought on this: I do appreciate LeBron....but I don't want him to succeed. Go Bulls! :biggrin:


----------



## kflo

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> 40 year old Sabonis crawled back to Europe a few years ago, and was voted the best player in Euroleague, he had a few games against MACCABI where he scored around 30and grabbed 25 boards in 25 minutes.
> 
> Now imagine Sabonis back in the 1980s in his prime and without injuries. If this crippled 40 year old could do that, what would Sabonis from the 1980s do today.
> And he wasn't even the best european player back then.
> 
> Anybody claiming they are better players in europe today is insane.
> 
> Smoking two packs a day, apparently did more damage to people's offspring then to smokers themselves, because this generation is worse than their fathers.
> 
> NBA was much better, Europeans were better. League had less teams, Europe had less countries, concentration of talent was greater.
> 
> Also, today with 24/7 media, and all the crap, people think if they are over 6'4" and can jump, they don't need to do much else to make $20 000 000. They have everybody around them talling them this, and they have plenty of proof, just see \who's making that kind of a dough in the NBA, Shaq for sitting on his ***, Starrbury......


the soviet's, and 13 other countries boycotted the '84 olympics. sabonis didn't play.

and nobody argues that the game in the 80s in europe was as talented as it is today. except you.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

jordan WAS a 2x ncaa player of the year by the time he left as junior. he was no way comparable to dwyane wade as an overall prospect. 

jordan also became a model of building a team around a wing player. how he was viewed and his draft position needs to be understood in that context.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> 40 year old Sabonis crawled back to Europe a few years ago, and was voted the best player in Euroleague, he had a few games against MACCABI where he scored around 30and grabbed 25 boards in 25 minutes. Now imagine Sabonis back in the 1980s in his prime and without injuries. If this crippled 40 year old could do that, what would Sabonis from the 1980s do today.


The same way that the aged McAdoo lit up Euroleague. Sabonis was one of the greatest players ever. It's not surprising that he was able to play Euroleague into his 40s.



kbird said:


> And he wasn't even the best european player back then.










(who the hell do I have to sleep with to get this added to the emoticons list, damnit!)

:lol: :lol: :lol:



kbird said:


> Anybody claiming they are better players in europe today is insane.


In other words, you've never watched European basketball either. Any explanation as to why those oh so dominant Spanish players of yore, with skills that Tim Duncan only dreams of, were completely unable to establish a presence in the NBA? Any explanation at all? Oh, that's right, it was the dominant "skills" of Chuckles Bradley, Sidney Wicks, and Curtis Rowe that kept them out of the NBA. 










(Hint, you may want to think twice about your expansion claims, if you were _really_ an old timer like me, and not a poser, you'd know better.)


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kflo said:


> jordan WAS a 2x ncaa player of the year by the time he left as junior. he was no way comparable to dwyane wade as an overall prospect.
> 
> jordan also became a model of building a team around a wing player. how he was viewed and his draft position needs to be understood in that context.


Yeah. He BECAME a model of building around a wing. But at 21 no one would have known that. Again. At 21 people knew Jordan was good. But they weren't saying he would be GOAT like they were with Lebron at 19. If they were do you really think Portland would have drafted Sam Bowie? He was the third pick in the draft. Lebron would have been the number one pick in pretty much any draft with the hype behind him. He could have come out his junior year of HIGH SCHOOL and been the third pick.

You just don't understand that in terms of hype coming into the draft, Jordan was nowhere near Lebron's level. People would have also just looked at them standing next to each other. Do I want the skinny 6-6 guy, or the 250 train of a player who passes like Magic who is 6-8?

You're just being unrealistic.


----------



## dwade3

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

im a Jordan homer and a LeBron hater.....so u know what im gonna say....and i got every fact to bak me up....


----------



## kflo

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> Yeah. He BECAME a model of building around a wing. But at 21 no one would have known that. Again. At 21 people knew Jordan was good. But they weren't saying he would be GOAT like they were with Lebron at 19. If they were do you really think Portland would have drafted Sam Bowie? He was the third pick in the draft. Lebron would have been the number one pick in pretty much any draft with the hype behind him. He could have come out his junior year of HIGH SCHOOL and been the third pick.
> 
> You just don't understand that in terms of hype coming into the draft, Jordan was nowhere near Lebron's level. People would have also just looked at them standing next to each other. Do I want the skinny 6-6 guy, or the 250 train of a player who passes like Magic who is 6-8?
> 
> You're just being unrealistic.



i'm not saying jordan was the same prospect lebron was. he wasn't. i'm giving additional context as to what jordan was at the time and how his success changed perceptions going forward. 

also, h.s. prospects were viewed differently back then. lebron came out in the era of the h.s. to pro phenomenon. 

jordan was 21 for his rookie season. do you think lebron at 21 was far ahead of jordan for his rookie season?


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kflo said:


> i'm not saying jordan was the same prospect lebron was. he wasn't. i'm giving additional context as to what jordan was at the time and how his success changed perceptions going forward.
> 
> also, h.s. prospects were viewed differently back then. lebron came out in the era of the h.s. to pro phenomenon.
> *
> jordan was 21 for his rookie season. do you think lebron at 21 was far ahead of jordan for his rookie season?*


I actually think they were pretty close. Which is why this isn't the ridiculous question that some people are trying to make it out to be.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> Just to show you how little people know about MJ. He was promoted as the new David Thompson, so people knew even his freshmen year he had potential to be what he became. For those who don't know Thompson was one of the greatest leapers and talents, who unfortunatelly snorted too much coke.
> 
> The ONLY difference was, there was no ESPN and all the 24/7 media crap, so the hype was not 'round the clock as it is these days.
> 
> But, people knew he'd be one of the best ever.


See, I should have read the entire thread, I would have realised right here that you were full of ****. As someone that watched David Thompson back in the day, I can tell you that there was more bull**** thrown around about him than any other player before or since. And it was the _absence_ of something like ESPN that allowed the pile of bull**** to form. People bought those stories of Thompson touching the top of the backboard because they really weren't familiar with what he could do. If there had been an ESPN Sportscenter in those days of yore the cult of BS would never have formed around Thompson.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kflo said:


> jordan was 21 for his rookie season. do you think lebron at 21 was far ahead of jordan for his rookie season?


Lebron at 21 put up 31/7/7. He was MVP of the all-star game. Named NBA-First team. And almost beat the prohibitive favorite to win the title that year, the Detroit Pistons in the second round of the playoffs.

So I mean....they were close. But Lebron was really good at 21.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Incidentally if Lebron wins the MVP next year he'll be the same age as when Jordan won his.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*



kbird said:


> Gooden was averaging 14.4 and 9.5 just 2 years ago.
> 
> As for shooting%, I just explained that. He was set up, as in penetrate, draw, and dish to Grant for a wide open 5 footer or a dunk, thus 57%.
> 
> Lebron does not do this, he doesn't know how. Give gooden MJ or Magic and watch his shooting go to 60%


Wrong! Because Grant with Jordan never had a 60%fg season so your claims are ridiculous, Grant was a better overall player then Gooden so you need to re-think your strategy since you claim that you never lose arguments. SO far you are losing this one.


----------



## d_jizzle

*Re: Lebron James or Michael Jordan*

Of course at the age of 21, you would take James. To do the kind of things he does with that size is amazing. 

But this is my personal opinion is probably skewed because I did see Jordan play. I guess this is a perspetive from after seeing Jordan play. But I think what separates Lebron from Jordan is work ethic. I'm not saying Lebron is lazy or unmotivated. He definately is no slouch. But I think people forget how legendary and out of the world Jordan's work ethic and competitive drive is. LBJ has the advantage in most physical aspects like size and strength over Jordan. But Jordan was ruthless, especially in the department of work ethic. I don't think he's matched in this aspect. Not even other sporting greats with known excellent work ethic or competitive drives like Kobe or Tiger Woods seem to match the insane level that Jordan reaches. 

When I hear or read stories like Jordan refused to stop playing cards until he won, or when a flu-ridden, vomiting MJ refused to be bedridden and eventually beat Utah in the finals on sheer willpower and determination, it just sends shivers up my spine. 

But yeah, I guess determining someone's work ethic would be harder to guage when you're 21 as compared to when your career's over.


----------



## theflyballa

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*

Jordan was highly overrated especially during his prime. He's definitely a Top 10 player. But he is not the GOAT.


----------



## luther

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*

Thing thing that bugs me about threads like this is that, while interesting to a degree, they always--repeat, _always_--devolve into people insulting one of the choices or insulting each other. And the fact is that Jordan and Bird were both so good that such petty sniping is insulting to their games. A Bird v. Jordan argument (or Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Oscar and a handful of others) is something like debating Mozart v. Beethoven, Miles v. Coltrane, Camus v. Sartre or whatever other giants in their fields you want to pit against one another needlessly.

The argument can never be won because first, they were almost apples to oranges (but not quite; positional differences are noteworthy, but it's still the same game, and they were both multi-skilled masters...so maybe granny smith apples to honeycrisp apples), and second, it can't ever come down to just two guys. Everything both did was in context of four other guys on the court with them, and five against them. All the numbers you want to haul out to defend or attack came from within a different situation. Sometimes that wouldn't matter. I promise you that Jordan did better in his situation than I would have done in his situation. But are one's scoring totals inflated or another's held down based on his teams? Rebounds, ditto? Assists? Percentages? Wins?

Any reasonable and educated fan knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're both absolutely brilliant, geniuses of the game. Personally, I don't see the need to take it much further than that.


----------



## UltimatePeteMaravich

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*

Right on Luther. These comparisons are tough - take both players for what they were. In my book:

1. Two tough SOB's that you did not want to have to face.

2. The combination of Jordan's athletic ability and basketball skill may be the best combination we have ever seen.

3. Bird was tough, smart, and knew how to get the most out of his natural ability.

I'll take either any day of the week.


----------



## buduan

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*

You're all wrong about the GOAT. It's Kareem Abdul Jabaar. Won the title every year in HS, college, and six more in the League. 6 MVP's, all time scoring leader, all NBA and defensive teams numerous times, etc.....he's the real GOAT.

As for Bird vs Jordan, it would be easier to determine who was better in their prime (although not by much) if they played the same position. But they didn't so it's almost pointless. Jordan was a huge scorer and defensive pitbull. Bird was a jack (and master) of all trades. The only edge I would give Jordan as a player is his one on one defense. If Bird was asked to carry a team the way Jordan was he would have scored just as much. He was a better passer and rebounder, and as was mentioned earlier a better team defender.

So I would take Bird. As a Celtic hater (27 years and counting) that pains me to say. But, he was a player that motivated his teammates to play harder just by his presence. Teammates moved more on offense because they knew he would find them. They got rebounds because of him tipping balls to them or keeping balls alive. He made the impossible possible with the ball and others benefited time and time again. He could kill you without taking a shot. 

IMO Jordan had to have a team built around him and what he brought in order to finally breakthrough and win. Bird was one of those special players that could draw the best out of any team he was on and win anyway (see 1979, Indiana State roster, can anybody name ANY of his teammates?).

Just one mans opinion.


----------



## buduan

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*

Another thing to ponder in this Jordan vs Bird debate. One of the things that tells me how dangerous a player is, is to see how a defense reacts to him when he makes his move to the hoop. Do they all rush to him to stop him (Jordan), or do they freeze because they have no clue what this guy is about to drop on them (Bird)? I personally think the latter is the more dangerous player.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*



buduan said:


> and as was mentioned earlier a better team defender.


I don't know where this myth of Bird being the BETTER team defender started, but it's totally inaccurate. Bird was a fantastic team defender, mind you, but he wasn't Jordan's equal in this area, much less his superior.


----------



## buduan

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*

Explain...


----------



## tsherkin

*Re: Jordan's prime vs Bird's prime*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> _This is a bit off topic but I wanted to correct a common misperception. McHale was NEVER a 10 rebound a game guy. He only broke 9 rebounds a game once in his entire career and was a below average rebounder for a PF his entire career. People excuse it because he played next to Bird but other "great" PFs that played next to great rebounding 3's didn't have the same weakness. McHale was a great post scorer, a great defender, and his being a black hole is overrated thanks to Danny Ainge's mouth, but he was a pretty passive player on the boards._


Well, he had 9.0 rpg in one season and 9.9 rpg in another season... a season in which he was 7 rebounds short of a 10.0 rpg average (he had 763 rebounds in a season in which he played 77 games). 

But in general, yeah, McHale was more of a 7-8 rpg player and it was Parish who was the 10 rpg guy beside Bird (and 12.5 the year that Bird only played 6 games). 

Boston's rebounding dominance was absolutely a key factor in their success and likewise the passing skill of Robert Parish, who routinely hit DJ and Ainge for transition buckets because they knew they could cherry-pick because one of McHale, Bird or Parish would invariably get the rebound.

I'll get to responding to this thread re: the actual topic eventually...


----------



## King Bosh

*Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

So many members here think Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player to ever live. And I feel the same way. But why does everyone think that he is. There's been so many great players like Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Wilt Chamberlain, Dr J, and Bill Russell to name a few. Why does Jordan stand out so much? When answering this topic i'd like for everyone to give me some great points and examples to why you think he's the greatest. I want this topic to become great.


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

Pure and simple. There are a number of players that stand out statistically . . . Wilt Chamberlain by far the most. However, there are only two players that have consistently won championships as the best player on their team: Bill Russell and Michael Jordan.

Russell won from the moment he entered the league ending up with 11 championships in 13 seasons. Jordan came into the league as an individually dominant, amazing to watch player and took a few years to get a team and coach that he could lead past the early rounds of the playoffs. However, when he got it together, he took the Bulls to six "consecutive" championships . . . 3 in a row, then he took 2 years off, then 3 in a row again.

Thus, when it comes to winners, there are only two players that can be considered the best of all time, Russell or Jordan. The Russell proponents (of which I am one) say that he was the best because he did it from day one, did it over 13 years rather than just over 8, was one of the two most statistically dominant players ever in the categories that he dominated (rebounds . . . and presumably blocks) and did it with virtually every significant player on his roster being replaced over that period. Jordan proponents say that he was the GOAT because he did it in a more modern era, with appreciably more difficult playoff schedules due to extra rounds in the playoffs, and did it with great scoring which Russell was never known for. Purely statistical measures show Jordan as one of the all-time greats, and don't show Russell rating that highly and both were great defensive players (though Russell is the one considered the greatest of all time there).


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



King Bosh said:


> So many members here think Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player to ever live. And I feel the same way. *But why does everyone think that he is.* There's been so many great players like Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Wilt Chamberlain, Dr J, and Bill Russell to name a few. Why does Jordan stand out so much? When answering this topic i'd like for everyone to give me some great points and examples to why you think he's the greatest. I want this topic to become great.


Marketing.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

Why do most people consider Jordan the GOAT? Let's look at a partial list:


- 10 scoring titles, many on staggering efficiency (there have been just 10 seasons of 30+ ppg/60+% TS in history, and Jordan has 4 of them).

- 5 MVP's

- 10 top 2 finishes in MVP voting

- 7 The Sporting News MVP Awards (voted on by coaches and players)

- 6 rings

- 6 Finals MVP's

- DPOY award

- 3 top 2 finishes in DPOY voting (1988, '90, '93), and 8 years in the top 6 in DPOY voting)

- Only player to ever win MVP/DPOY/Scoring Title in the same season. 

- One of only two players to ever lead the league in scoring and steals in the same season, and he did it three times (Iverson did it twice). 

- The first and to this day one of only 3 players to record 200+ steals/100+ blocks in the same season, and he did it *twice, in consecutive seasons* (235 stl/126 blk in '87 and 256 stl/131 blk in '88). No one else has ever done it twice.

- 3 steals titles; 7 top 3 finishes in steals per game.

- most blocked shots by a guard in history, both single season and career.

- Considered the best offensive *and* defensive player in the league by many for a period of 5-6 seasons ('88-'93).

- Considered the undisputed best player in the league by a large majority (90+%) for at least 7-8 seasons.

- A top 3 clutch player in history AT THE VERY LEAST.

- Career regular season averages of 30.1 pts/6.2 reb/5.3 ast/2.3 stl/50% FG.

- 5 year prime regular season averages of 32.1 pts/6.8 reb/6.3 ast/2.7 stl/52% FG

- Career playoff averages of 33.4 pts/6.4 reb/5.7 ast/2.1 stl/49% FG.

- 5 year prime playoff averages of 34.5 pts/6.7 reb/6.9 ast/2.3 stl/51% FG

- 7 seasons leading the league in PER

- 10 top 2 finishes in PER

- 4 seasons leading the league in EFF

- 7 top 2 finishes in EFF

- 8 seasons leading the league in Win Shares

- 10 top 3 finishes in Win Shares

- 8 seasons leading the league in Win Shares Above Average

- 9 seasons leading the league in Player Wins

- 10 top 2 finishes in Player Wins

- Led teams with three of the 10 best offensive efficiencies of all time. Proved that he was able to integrate high scoring and winning basketball.

- Led his teams to an average of 65 wins per season during their championship runs.



The list is honestly endless. People (who shall remain nameless) who spout foolish nonsense like "it was because of marketing" or "the media" are kidding themselves and shouldn't be taken seriously.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



Jordan23Forever said:


> The list is honestly endless. People (who shall remain nameless) who spout foolish nonsense like "it was because of marketing" or "the media" are kidding themselves and shouldn't be taken seriously.


This is exhibit A.


----------



## Aussie Baller

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Marketing.


Bingo


----------



## Aussie Baller

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Why do most people consider Jordan the GOAT? Let's look at a partial list:
> 
> 
> - 10 scoring titles, many on staggering efficiency (there have been just 10 seasons of 30+ ppg/60+% TS in history, and Jordan has 4 of them).
> 
> - 5 MVP's
> 
> - 10 top 2 finishes in MVP voting
> 
> - 7 The Sporting News MVP Awards (voted on by coaches and players)
> 
> - 6 rings
> 
> - 6 Finals MVP's
> 
> - DPOY award
> 
> - 3 top 2 finishes in DPOY voting (1988, '90, '93), and 8 years in the top 6 in DPOY voting)
> 
> - Only player to ever win MVP/DPOY/Scoring Title in the same season.
> 
> - One of only two players to ever lead the league in scoring and steals in the same season, and he did it three times (Iverson did it twice).
> 
> - The first and to this day one of only 3 players to record 200+ steals/100+ blocks in the same season, and he did it *twice, in consecutive seasons* (235 stl/126 blk in '87 and 256 stl/131 blk in '88). No one else has ever done it twice.
> 
> - 3 steals titles; 7 top 3 finishes in steals per game.
> 
> - most blocked shots by a guard in history, both single season and career.
> 
> - Considered the best offensive *and* defensive player in the league by many for a period of 5-6 seasons ('88-'93).
> 
> - Considered the undisputed best player in the league by a large majority (90+%) for at least 7-8 seasons.
> 
> - A top 3 clutch player in history AT THE VERY LEAST.
> 
> - Career regular season averages of 30.1 pts/6.2 reb/5.3 ast/2.3 stl/50% FG.
> 
> - 5 year prime regular season averages of 32.1 pts/6.8 reb/6.3 ast/2.7 stl/52% FG
> 
> - Career playoff averages of 33.4 pts/6.4 reb/5.7 ast/2.1 stl/49% FG.
> 
> - 5 year prime playoff averages of 34.5 pts/6.7 reb/6.9 ast/2.3 stl/51% FG
> 
> - 7 seasons leading the league in PER
> 
> - 10 top 2 finishes in PER
> 
> - 4 seasons leading the league in EFF
> 
> - 7 top 2 finishes in EFF
> 
> - 8 seasons leading the league in Win Shares
> 
> - 10 top 3 finishes in Win Shares
> 
> - 8 seasons leading the league in Win Shares Above Average
> 
> - 9 seasons leading the league in Player Wins
> 
> - 10 top 2 finishes in Player Wins
> 
> - Led teams with three of the 10 best offensive efficiencies of all time. Proved that he was able to integrate high scoring and winning basketball.
> 
> - Led his teams to an average of 65 wins per season during their championship runs.
> 
> 
> 
> The list is honestly endless. People (who shall remain nameless) who spout foolish nonsense like "it was because of marketing" or "the media" are kidding themselves and shouldn't be taken seriously.


He's a goddamn awesome player, don't get me wrong. Imagine what would happen if Oscar Robinson put up the numbers he did in the 90's or Russell was as dominant as he was in the 90's. It's the fact that he's the most recognizable athlete which is helped by him being _one_ of the greatest to play the game.


----------



## theflyballa

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

He's not the GOAT. If we're going by stats, it's Wilt. If we're going by accomplishments, it's Bill Russell. And if we're going by pure individual talent, skill, and athleticism, it's Kobe.


----------



## 23isback

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



theflyballa said:


> He's not the GOAT. If we're going by stats, it's Wilt. If we're going by accomplishments, it's Bill Russell. And if we're going by pure individual talent, skill, and athleticism, it's *Kobe*.


Says you.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



theflyballa said:


> He's not the GOAT. If we're going by stats, it's Wilt. If we're going by accomplishments, it's Bill Russell. And if we're going by pure individual talent, skill, and athleticism, it's Kobe.


If you're going by all three... how is it not Michael Jordan?


Also... I'm guessing you never saw a young MJ if you really think Kobe has more talent, skill and athleticism.


----------



## theflyballa

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



Dornado said:


> If you're going by all three... how is it not Michael Jordan?
> 
> 
> Also... I'm guessing you never saw a young MJ if you really think Kobe has more talent, skill and athleticism.


You'd guess wrong.


----------



## buduan

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

I'll take Kareem as the greatest ever. His NBA accomplishments are equal or greater to MJ's and his HS and college careers swamp anything Jordan did. Had Jordan swapped time periods with The Big O people would be talking about Oscar Robertson as the greatest ever.


----------



## lovebball

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

Kobe more skilled than MJ??? LOL apart from 3 point shooting, Jordan swamps kobe, plz ppl talk about Kobe's ball handling when they dont allow hand-checks, and yet kobe still turns the ball over. And Kobe cant hit over 50 percent of his field goals to save his life. Laker fans cant stand non lakers being veiwed as the greatest of all time, they think everything must be from LALA land. Oh yeah, last yr when someone asked Kareem why he diddnt score more than 60 points at any point during his career, Kareem answered " because I diddnt need to to win", then he went on to say that Wilt was a guy " who diddnt mind losing as long as he got his 50 points". LOL, this coming from a guy that has actually played against wilt, and still ppl wanna call wilt the greatest of all time. Bill Russell also called Wilt's game, a number's game rather than a winning game.


----------



## iversonfan 349

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

I think its because of the championships. Also the media makes you think so because they always say it. People are shocked if you say any other name.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

Well heres why:

There are a few basic aspects of a player's game in basketball

SCORING
-Michael Jordan was the best or second best scorer in the history of the NBA. One can make the argument that Wilt was a better scorer, but at the very worst MJ is the second best scorer ever.

DEFENSE
- MJ was one of the best perimeter shut-down defenders of all time, and also was amazing at gettings steals AND for a guard racked up a lot of blocks.

CLUTCH/PLAYOFF PLAY
- MJ was the most clutch player in NBA history. He made SOOO many game winning shots even though everyone knew he was going to take the shot. In the playoffs he was incredible in general. His LOWEST points per game for a year in the playoffs was 29.3 points per game in his rookie year. EVERY other year he scored more than 30 points a game. Thats incredible. This is why he WON so much.

TURNOVERS
- MJ was EXCELLENT at protecting the basketball. He has the 17th best turnover% of all time, and all the people above him basically didnt create their own shot or get many assists at all. For someone who created his own shots and got a lot of assists, MJ is UNPARALLELED in his low number of turnovers. This is very important because he controlled the ball A LOT and didn't give it up, making his team extremely efficient with their possessions.

PASSING
-Which leads me to the fact that while he didn't pass like a point guard, MJ had excellent court vision. 25% of all Bull's field goals (excluding ones he scored) while he was on the floor were assisted by him. Thats actually a VERY good number for a non-point guard. It puts him 93rd all time with very few non-point guards above him. Considering his low turnover numbers, MJs number of assists are very impressive. His ability to have the defense collapse on him and to then pass out to shooters like Steve Kerr for open shots made the Bulls extremely hard to defend against.

REBOUNDING
- While MJs numbers for rebounds might not be up there with centers, he was arguably just as valuable to his team in terms of rebounding as many top centers of all time because he rebounded far better than the average guard. In fact, in rebound rate, MJ ranks 139th all time. That might not sound impressive, but just to put it in perspective, there are only three pure guards who rank ahead of him (Magic, Kidd, Drexler). MJ was of great value to his team when it came to rebounding. 


So essentially MJ is the best ever because no one can compare to his combination of scoring, defense, and clutch play, and at the same time his ball handling, passing, and rebounding were all great assets to his team. No one else has that.


----------



## Deke

*Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

What do you think?


----------



## MicCheck12

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

:dancingpadlock:


----------



## Dre

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Kind of hard to be the greatest anything when your sample size is less than a 3rd of comparable people.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

No. I definitely have Larry Bird ahead of LeBron James. Elgin Baylor, Scottie Pippen, and Dr. J are ahead of LeBron in my eyes still too. However I don't feel LeBron has accomplished anything close to what Larry Bird did as of yet in a career. However maybe after it's all said and done for LeBron he may very well be the greatest small forward of all time.


----------



## Ben

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Lets just wait till LeBron has had at least half of his career, look how long he's been playing for, compared to other small forwards you consider great.


----------



## SlamJam

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

as long as he doesn't get any major injuries or anything to slow him down, then yeah he'll be the best sf ever.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Waaaaaaaay to early to make this thread.


----------



## buduan

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

He could end up there. But right now Larry Bird sits at the top all alone in this discussion.


----------



## Ben

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

I'm not saying he can't, he definitely can, but it's far too early.


----------



## Geaux Tigers

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

People in the sports world are so impatient these days. It's all about predicting whats going to happen instead of talking about whats actually happening. Sheesh


----------



## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

i believe he will be the greatest sf ever. right now my top 5 sfs ever

1-Elgin Baylor
2-Larry Bird
3-Scottie Pippen
4-Julius Erving
5-Lebron James


----------



## buduan

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Baylor played almost his entire career at PF. But even if he was a SF how could you justify placing him over Bird?


----------



## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



buduan said:


> Baylor played almost his entire career at PF. But even if he was a SF how could you justify placing him over Bird?


higher career ppg total. more explosive scorer. better rebounder. better defensive player.
also an nba champion.

cant think of anything bird did better besides pass really.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

The per game numbers are skewed towards Baylor because in his era there was a lot more possesions for game.

Adjust for pace and Bird is far more efficient scorer while also being a prolific scorer. Throw in passing and Bird has a pretty sizeable edge over Baylor


----------



## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Pioneer10 said:


> The per game numbers are skewed towards Baylor because in his era there was a lot more possesions for game.
> 
> Adjust for pace and Bird is far more efficient scorer while also being a prolific scorer. Throw in passing and Bird has a pretty sizeable edge over Baylor


my ***. the 80s was just as fast as the 60s if not faster. the league was at a career high in scoring.

bird was also a crappy defender.
elgin was above average. thats a big piece to why hes better. especially when you add more points scored and more rebounds.


----------



## Doodles

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

NO WAY is Lebron the top SF yet, probably in the top ten, but compared to a lot of players Lebron hasn't accomplished what a lot have players have give him a few years and maybe.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Is this a joke? 

sigh


----------



## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

well he did lead his team to the finals without a real number 2. has any other elite sf done that?


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

It doesn't matter because Larry Bird played SF, and that should be the end of the conversation.


----------



## Doodles

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

i still think he needs at least 1 ring but at the moment i don't think he can do that for a while


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> my ***. the 80s was just as fast as the 60s if not faster. the league was at a career high in scoring.
> 
> bird was also a crappy defender.
> elgin was above average. thats a big piece to why hes better. especially when you add more points scored and more rebounds.


No it wasn't

Basketball-reference doesn't have pace back into the 60's but just look at the FGA in the 60's vs 80's which is a crude approximation of pace and look at the numbers. The Lakers of the 80's which were a _fast break_ team averaged around 800+ less FGA attempt thens Laker teams in the 60's. This is a widely agreed upon fact in the basketball statistical community. Scoring doesn't explain the pace difference because teams in the 60's shot a lot and missed a lot (there FG% is low)

Bird was also a very good team defender while being a below average man on man: he wasn't nearly as bad on D when you combine the two as your making it out to be


----------



## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Pioneer10 said:


> No it wasn't
> 
> Basketball-reference doesn't have pace back into the 60's but just look at the FGA in the 60's vs 80's which is a crude approximation of pace and look at the numbers. The Lakers of the 80's which were a _fast break_ team averaged around 800+ less FGA attempt thens Laker teams in the 60's. This is a widely agreed upon fact in the basketball statistical community
> 
> Bird was also a very good team defender while being a below average man on man: he wasn't nearly as bad on D when you combine the two as your making it out to be


pace is really a stupid stat. that would also mean kobes 35 ppg season would be like a 40+ ppg season and that hes a better scorer then MJ.

Man to man is what matters. marcus camby is a good help defender but is he stopping gasol and odom from ****ing the nugz up?


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> pace is really a stupid stat. that would also mean kobes 35 ppg season would be like a 40+ ppg season and that hes a better scorer then MJ.
> 
> Man to man is what matters. marcus camby is a good help defender but is he stopping gasol and odom from ****ing the nugz up?


I think you're way off base on both of those points.


----------



## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Brandname said:


> It doesn't matter because Larry Bird played SF, and that should be the end of the conversation.


Bird actually played a fair share of sg and pf as well.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> Bird actually played a fair share of sg and pf as well.


Right, but he was primarily a SF and for historical purposes that's what people consider him.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> pace is really a stupid stat. that would also mean kobes 35 ppg season would be like a 40+ ppg season and that hes a better scorer then MJ.
> 
> Man to man is what matters. marcus camby is a good help defender but is he stopping gasol and odom from ****ing the nugz up?


You really are not making sense here. From a volume perspective adjusted for pace that was really only the one year Kobe has put numbers like that and your missing the big point it not the amount of scoring that separates Jordan and Kobe but efficiency. Jordan was a volume scorer who was also extremely efficient for a guard that's what make him special. Pace just makes sure you put things on even keel since teams play far different styles but efficiency doesn't change much.


----------



## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Pioneer10 said:


> You really are not making sense here. From a volume perspective adjusted for pace that was really only the one year Kobe has put numbers like that and your missing the big point it not the amount of scoring that separates Jordan and Kobe but efficiency. Jordan was a volume scorer who was also extremely efficient for a guard that's what make him special. Pace just makes sure you put things on even keel since teams play far different styles but efficiency doesn't change much.


so ppg doesnt favor kobe because his era is slower, but ppg does favor bird cuz his era is slower?....


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> so ppg doesnt favor kobe because his era is slower, but ppg does favor bird cuz his era is slower?....


Why don't you answer your own question by reading my previous post again:



> The per game numbers are skewed towards Baylor because in his era there was a lot more possesions for game.
> 
> Adjust for pace and Bird is far more efficient scorer while also being a prolific scorer. Throw in passing and Bird has a pretty sizeable edge over Baylor


I'm not the one whose basing who the better scorer is by using PPG alone you are.


----------



## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Pioneer10 said:


> Why don't you answer your own question by reading my previous post again:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not the one whose basing who the better scorer is by using PPG alone you are.


so fg% makes him better? please. i guess artis gilmore is better then shaquille oneal offensively?


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> so fg% makes him better? please. i guess artis gilmore is better then shaquille oneal offensively?


Your really asking some dense questions now. Bird's and Baylor's PPG were not that far off once adjusted for pace so you go with the player who is more efficient (Baylor team in his highest scoring year shot a whopping 1000 more shots then Bird's team in his highest scoring year). Gilmore while being more efficient then Shaq never scored in anywhere close to same vicinity of Shaq in terms points per possession**. Again your the one basing everything on one stat, PPG not me.

** This is not meant to be a knock on Gilmore who really should be in the HOF. So I don't think Gilmore is some scrub.


----------



## Najee

*Larry Bird vs. Elgin Baylor*



Deke said:


> so fg% makes him better? please. i guess artis gilmore is better then shaquille oneal offensively?


Larry Bird averaged 24.3 points per game while shooting a much higher percentage than Elgin Baylor (career average: 27.3, FG%: .431, compared to Bird's .496). Not only was Bird a better shooter than Baylor (not based on their field goal percentages, but actual skill), but Bird needed fewer shots to score comparably.

Like Pioneer said, Baylor played during a period where teams shot a lot more and made fewer shots (hence, low shooting percentages and high rebounding totals). Baylor's .428 field goal percentage in 1962-63 was actually close to the league average that season; Baylor's clip was like someone shooting 50 percent from the field. That season, Baylor averaged 33 shots per game to get his 38.3 points per game. 

In Bird's best scoring seasons where he averaged 28.1 (1986-87), 28.7 (1984-85) and 29.9 points per game (1987-88), he never averaged more than 22 shots per game in a season. In all three seasons, he shot better than 52 percent from the field.

No one is diminishing what Baylor did, just being asked to choose between him and Bird. Factor in the team accomplishments, Bird would rate out ahead of Baylor, IMO.


----------



## Deke

*Re: Larry Bird vs. Elgin Baylor*



Najee said:


> Larry Bird averaged 24.3 points per game while shooting a much higher percentage than Elgin Baylor (career average: 27.3, FG%: .431, compared to Bird's .496). Not only was Bird a better shooter than Baylor (not based on their field goal percentages, but actual skill), but Bird needed fewer shots to score comparably.
> 
> Like Pioneer said, Baylor played during a period where teams shot a lot more and made fewer shots (hence, low shooting percentages and high rebounding totals). Baylor's .428 field goal percentage in 1962-63 was actually close to the league average that season; Baylor's clip was like someone shooting 50 percent from the field. That season, Baylor averaged 33 shots per game to get his 38.3 points per game.
> 
> In Bird's best scoring seasons where he averaged 28.1 (1986-87), 28.7 (1984-85) and 29.9 points per game (1987-88), he never averaged more than 22 shots per game in a season. In all three seasons, he shot better than 52 percent from the field.
> 
> No one is diminishing what Baylor did, just being asked to choose between him and Bird. Factor in the team accomplishments, Bird would rate out ahead of Baylor, IMO.


Elgin still scored more. the fg% aint drastic enough to favor bird.
then you count how good they are defensively.

More points scored-Baylor
Better Defender-Baylor
Better Rebounder-Baylor

more effecient-bird
better passer-bird

both are damn good players but ill take the guy who gets the boards, scores more(fg% is an overrated stat. lebron has a higher fg% then kobe. is he better offensively?) and plays good man D.


----------



## buduan

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> well he did lead his team to the finals without a real number 2. has any other elite sf done that?


Rick Barry.

And he won the title.


----------



## buduan

*Re: Larry Bird vs. Elgin Baylor*



Deke said:


> Elgin still scored more. the fg% aint drastic enough to favor bird.
> then you count how good they are defensively.
> 
> More points scored-Baylor
> Better Defender-Baylor
> Better Rebounder-Baylor
> 
> more effecient-bird
> better passer-bird
> 
> both are damn good players but ill take the guy who gets the boards, scores more(fg% is an overrated stat. lebron has a higher fg% then kobe. is he better offensively?) and plays good man D.


What leads you to believe that Baylor was a better defender?


----------



## Deke

*Re: Larry Bird vs. Elgin Baylor*



buduan said:


> What leads you to believe that Baylor was a better defender?


admittedly i havent seen much of baylor. but from the games i did see vs boston he played pretty good man D whereas bird was pretty much a liability vs scott-worthy.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Larry Bird FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## seifer0406

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

If Lebron finishes his career without major injuries, he will be the best if not a top 3 sf in history. Physically he has to be the most athletic SF to ever play the game. If he stays healthy he will also have better career numbers because of playing more years.


----------



## Najee

*Re: Larry Bird vs. Elgin Baylor*



Deke said:


> More points scored-Baylor
> Better Defender-Baylor
> Better Rebounder-Baylor.


For his career, Elgin Baylor averaged 3 points per game more than Larry Bird despite years where Baylor was averaging more than 30 shots per game in effectively a dead-ball era.

I doubt that I would call Baylor the better rebounder, either. Baylor played in a dead-ball era, where teams took considerably more shots than any team since then. Factoring those rather inflated numbers, I would say Baylor's career averages are comparable to Bird's (24 points, 10 rebounds per game).

When the league's shooting became more accurate at the end of his career (and started resembling the modern era), Baylor's numbers started deflating to where they were like Bird's (24 points, 10 rebounds, .486 shooting in 1969-70).

Because Baylor (shot-heavy, low accuracy) and Bird (higher percentage, more skilled) played in entirely different eras, you need some sort of statistical computation to adjust one's era for the other. It's similar to an economic deflator, which is used to compare a good like gasoline prices in the late '70s to today. 

I didn't see Baylor play live, and more likely than neither did you. I can say I've never heard people (including people I know who did see him play) speaking about Baylor's defense in effusive terms. Bird was a good team defender who did receive three all-Defensive Team second-team honors.


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

I still find those All-D awards for Bird pretty shocking. It would be like Nash getting one today. I saw the guy play defense, he was a slow SF most of the time who could be beat off the dribble by most good SFs. He wasn't even that good a post defender despite his size. He could hang in the passing lanes and his outstanding court awareness would get him steals but he was not in any sense an above average defensive forward. That said, neither was Baylor by all accounts, being undersized with a scorer's mentality . . . not Charles Barkley bad but not a good defender either.


----------



## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

excuses by era are dumb. the way i see it you score 30 ppg, you score 30 ppg. it doesnt mean kobes 35 ppg is better then MJs 38 ppg. and it doesnt mean birds 24 ppg is better then baylors 27 ppg. plus bird retired in his prime...


----------



## kflo

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> excuses by era are dumb. the way i see it you score 30 ppg, you score 30 ppg. it doesnt mean kobes 35 ppg is better then MJs 38 ppg. and it doesnt mean birds 24 ppg is better then baylors 27 ppg. plus bird retired in his prime...


what's dumb is not adjusting for era. it's nonsensical. you can't compare wilt's 27 rpg to rodman's 18 rpg and simply conclude wilt was the better rebounder. it's dumb. kobe's 35 ppg actually is comparable to jordan's 37 ppg. they were comparable relative scorers, comparable relative efficiency. jordan did have some far better overall seasons than that season though. 

bird was a far, far more efficient scorer than baylor. and the best passer of all time at his position, and one of the best ever for any position. he's on an oscar robertson level, a tier above elgin. 

as for defense, early in his career, bird was a pretty good man defender. later in his career, he wasn't. but many of the old clips we see him playing defense are against guys like worthy and nique, who are extremely difficult matchups, and come later in his career. 

and he really didn't guard byron scott.


----------



## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



kflo said:


> what's dumb is not adjusting for era. it's nonsensical. you can't compare wilt's 27 rpg to rodman's 18 rpg and simply conclude wilt was the better rebounder. it's dumb. kobe's 35 ppg actually is comparable to jordan's 37 ppg. they were comparable relative scorers, comparable relative efficiency. jordan did have some far better overall seasons than that season though.
> 
> bird was a far, far more efficient scorer than baylor. and the best passer of all time at his position, and one of the best ever for any position. he's on an oscar robertson level, a tier above elgin.
> 
> as for defense, early in his career, bird was a pretty good man defender. later in his career, he wasn't. but many of the old clips we see him playing defense are against guys like worthy and nique, who are extremely difficult matchups, and come later in his career.
> 
> and he really didn't guard byron scott.


by that logic bron is a better passer then magic then cuz he has more assists in a slower era.

and emeka okafer is better offensively then bill russell.

bird was never a good man defender from any games ive seen. on his best days he was an average man defender. he brought some decent help D but guys in the east like bernard king,dominque wilkins,worthy,english,etc consistently dominated him.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> by that logic bron is a better passer then magic then cuz he has more assists in a slower era.


except he doesn't have more assists. he has alot less.




Deke said:


> and emeka okafer is better offensively then bill russell.


on what basis? okafor is an inefficient, weak passing, mediocre scoring big man. russell wasn't a great offensive player, and there were many better at his position over the years offensively. okafor not one of them though.



Deke said:


> bird was never a good man defender from any games ive seen. on his best days he was an average man defender. he brought some decent help D but guys in the east like bernard king,dominque wilkins,worthy,english,etc consistently dominated him.


worthy and english were in the west, and king and wilkins were simply dominant scorers. 

the game dr. j and bird got into their famous fight in early '84, bird had outscored him 41 to 6. 

one thing i'll say about bird is that his offensive peak didn't coincide with his defensive peak, although there was some overlap in his mvp seasons. but he wasn't a horrible pick for all-defense in his day.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> by that logic bron is a better passer then magic then cuz he has more assists in a slower era.


Man, you're making my head hurt. :banghead:


----------



## jericho

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Off the top of my head, I'd say...

1) Larry Bird
2) Elgin Baylor
3) Julius Erving
4) Rick Barry
5) John Havlicek
6) Lebron James
7) Scottie Pippen
8) Billy Cunningham
9) Dominique Wilkins
10) Tracy McGrady, Alex English, Adrian Dantley, Bernard King, Connie Hawkins...take your pick

What Lebron has already demonstrated is stunning, and (short of some major health catastrophe, God forbid), I fully expect him finish his career at least a couple spots further up the list. With a title or two and an MVP award or two, he might end up in the top 2. Hard to be any more definitive about it than that, though. Still early days.


----------



## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



kflo said:


> except he doesn't have more assists. he has alot less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on what basis? okafor is an inefficient, weak passing, mediocre scoring big man. russell wasn't a great offensive player, and there were many better at his position over the years offensively. okafor not one of them though.
> 
> 
> 
> worthy and english were in the west, and king and wilkins were simply dominant scorers.
> 
> the game dr. j and bird got into their famous fight in early '84, bird had outscored him 41 to 6.
> 
> one thing i'll say about bird is that his offensive peak didn't coincide with his defensive peak, although there was some overlap in his mvp seasons. but he wasn't a horrible pick for all-defense in his day.


1.Bron has 6.5
birds career is 6.3

and bron plays in a slower era. so why can you say elgin isnt as good a scorer cuz his era is faster even though he scores more, but cant say bron is a better passer then bird even though he puts up better passing stats in a slower era? hypocrite much?

on the basis that emeka okafer scores similar points in a MUCH slower era. i thought you had to take era into account?

why do you have to "Always take era into account'' but you can disregard these two things?

and regardless of conference the elite sfs killed him almost every time out. Julius Erving was 34 in 1984 also...


----------



## kflo

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> 1.Bron has 6.5
> birds career is 6.3
> 
> and bron plays in a slower era. so why can you say elgin isnt as good a scorer cuz his era is faster even though he scores more, but cant say bron is a better passer then bird even though he puts up better passing stats in a slower era? hypocrite much?


except you said magic, not bird. and averaging more assists doesn't make one a better passer. marbury averaged more assists than bird as well.




Deke said:


> on the basis that emeka okafer scores similar points in a MUCH slower era. i thought you had to take era into account?


he scores similar points, is a bad passer, and scores inefficiently on a bad team. russell was still an offensive catalyst on championship teams. if you want to give the offensive edge to okafor, be my guest, it wasn't russell's strongest suit. but not sure what the point is.



Deke said:


> why do you have to "Always take era into account'' but you can disregard these two things?


i didn't disregard anything. you should always take era and context into account. are you arguing that era and context aren't important and raw numbers unadjusted are all that matter? that nate thurmond must be a better rebounder than dennis rodman because he averaged more rebounds? 



Deke said:


> and regardless of conference the elite sfs killed him almost every time out.


and that's just false.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> What do you think?


I think that is probably the most moronic question i have ever read in all my years in this Forum.

Congratulations!


----------



## buduan

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Deke, you're killing yourself.

Lets simplify it (if this hasn't already been posted). Baylor averaged 27ppg for his career on almost 24 shots a game. Bird averaged 24ppg on about 19 shots a game. Baylor shot 43% for his career. Bird, 49%. Do the math. 5 more shots a game over the course of his career and he would have averaged more than Baylor. 

Baylor averaged more rebounds per game because there were more available rebounds in his era. And he was a *POWER FORWARD*. That is what PF's do.

Fact is you'd have to have seen more than some clips of his game to know that Bird was just a better all around and more complete player. Neither player was a particularly good defensive player. Bird got by with height and smarts. Baylor was undersized but he found a way to compete with his athleticism.


----------



## magohaydz

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

intense thread.....I vote MJ by the way.


----------



## mysterio

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

The majority regard MJ as the GOAT, but after him a good number regard Kareem as the GOAT. All things considered, it's really a coin-toss, IMO. 

oh, but all that is gonna change. Hear about this kid, Michael Beasley? He says he'd be offended if he were picked behind MJ. Look out!


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



lessthanjake said:


> Well heres why:
> 
> There are a few basic aspects of a player's game in basketball
> 
> SCORING
> -Michael Jordan was the best or second best scorer in the history of the NBA. One can make the argument that Wilt was a better scorer, but at the very worst MJ is the second best scorer ever.
> 
> DEFENSE
> - MJ was one of the best perimeter shut-down defenders of all time, and also was amazing at gettings steals AND for a guard racked up a lot of blocks.
> 
> CLUTCH/PLAYOFF PLAY
> - MJ was the most clutch player in NBA history. He made SOOO many game winning shots even though everyone knew he was going to take the shot. In the playoffs he was incredible in general. His LOWEST points per game for a year in the playoffs was 29.3 points per game in his rookie year. EVERY other year he scored more than 30 points a game. Thats incredible. This is why he WON so much.
> 
> TURNOVERS
> - MJ was EXCELLENT at protecting the basketball. He has the 17th best turnover% of all time, and all the people above him basically didnt create their own shot or get many assists at all. For someone who created his own shots and got a lot of assists, MJ is UNPARALLELED in his low number of turnovers. This is very important because he controlled the ball A LOT and didn't give it up, making his team extremely efficient with their possessions.
> 
> PASSING
> -Which leads me to the fact that while he didn't pass like a point guard, MJ had excellent court vision. 25% of all Bull's field goals (excluding ones he scored) while he was on the floor were assisted by him. Thats actually a VERY good number for a non-point guard. It puts him 93rd all time with very few non-point guards above him. Considering his low turnover numbers, MJs number of assists are very impressive. His ability to have the defense collapse on him and to then pass out to shooters like Steve Kerr for open shots made the Bulls extremely hard to defend against.
> 
> REBOUNDING
> - While MJs numbers for rebounds might not be up there with centers, he was arguably just as valuable to his team in terms of rebounding as many top centers of all time because he rebounded far better than the average guard. In fact, in rebound rate, MJ ranks 139th all time. That might not sound impressive, but just to put it in perspective, there are only three pure guards who rank ahead of him (Magic, Kidd, Drexler). MJ was of great value to his team when it came to rebounding.
> 
> 
> So essentially MJ is the best ever because no one can compare to his combination of scoring, defense, and clutch play, and at the same time his ball handling, passing, and rebounding were all great assets to his team. No one else has that.


Probably the best post in the thread . . . let's see if we can't match it to make the case that Bill Russell is the best ever.

These are a few basic aspects of a player's game in basketball:

REBOUNDING: Of all the raw stats (pts,reb,ast,bl,st,to,pf) this is the one that correlates most strongly with winning. Wilt is the greatest statmonger in history, he'd be easily tops in points too if he hadn't changed his style to try to imitate Russell and the only comparable rebounder in NBA history. Russell averaged 22.45 rpg for his career; the third greatest rebounder in NBA history averaged 16.22. To compare, that would be as if the third greatest scorer in NBA history averaged only 21.76ppg, a ridiculously low number. This is one of the greatest areas of dominance over even other HOF players (other than Wilt) ever recorded.

DEFENSE: Russell is generally regarded as the greatest defensive player ever. Period. 

CLUTCH/PLAYOFF PLAY: Russell is the greatest winner in NBA history. Compared to Michael Jordan, for example, Russell won 11 NBA titles in 13 seasons while Jordan won only 6 in 15 NBA seasons, a clutch/playoff winning percentage over twice as great. He won even though throughout his career he was matched against Wilt Chamberlain, the most statistically dominant player ever. He won with good but not great supporting players early (the Cousy/Sharman/Ramsey trio played with HOF center Ed McCauley for 4 years before McCauley and a top pick were traded for Russell coming in 2nd,3rd,3rd,and 2nd out of a 4 team Eastern conference ... practically a textbook case of mediocrity). He won with great supporting players facing great opposing teams; not just the 3 HOF frontline of St. Louis and the West/Baylor Lakers but the 76 teams featuring Wilt, Luke Walker, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker, Hal Greer, and Wali Jones . . . a collection of supporting talent for Wilt equal or better than the great Howell, Sanders, Havlicek, Sam Jones and KC Jones Celtics. Clutch play comes down to winning . . . Russell won . . . more than anyone . . . and it's not even close.

SHOTBLOCKING: By all contemporary accounts, Russell was probably the greatest shotblocker to ever play the game. Contemporaries estimate that he averaged 6-8 blocks a game. Former All-Pro/HOF center Neil Johnston was so supposedly so intimidated by him that he gave up basketball, ending his career before he turned 30. And shotblocking allows everyone else on the floor to play much tighter defense so rather than just shutting down one player, it helps every player on the team.

PASSING: Russell, while not a guard who started with the ball in his hands, was a great high post passing center. In an era where assists were 20% harder to get than modern ball, he averaged 4.3 assists for his career. What is more, he got them without being a featured scorer in the offense, just getting the ball as it moved around and finding cutters or open jump shooters with his outstanding court awareness. Additionally, he had two other rare skills. He was one of the great outlet passers to ever play, starting the famous Celtic fast break after rebounds, a skill that isn't measured in assists (at least under then existing rules). And, his shotblocking was so skilled, he not only blocked shots, he would redirect them to teammates like a pass thus creating even more possessions than shotblocking alone would account for.

SCORING: This is the one and only area where people say Russell doesn't compete with the other GOAT candidates like MJ, Wilt, and Kareem. But even here, Russell was not a weak point that you could ignore like Ben Wallace. Russell averaged over 15 ppg for his career, and he scored primarily from the high post, forcing the other team to have their center a bit further away from the basket than a low post scorer would. 

INTANGIBLES: Finally, Russell compares only to Kareem among the other GOAT candidates in intangibles. He was always a team leader, bringing out the best in his teammates and leading by example . . . not just on the court but in civil rights (his protest of a racist restaurent caused Boston to stop playing exhibitions in the deep South). Compare to Wilt, who was solely concerned with scoring with his 10,000 (by his own estimate) girlfriends, or Jordan, Mr. Corporate America with Air Jordans produced by child labor in Indonesia. In terms of on the court impact, Russell was an immediate winner from his first year in the league, taking a formerly mediocre Celtic team to a title right away and keeping them there for his whole career. Russell didn't take several years of individual great statistical accomplishments for his team to start winning championships like Wilt and Jordan; nor was he ever considered the second best player on any of his 11 titles like Kareem was on the majority of his. Nor did Russell take years off to pursue ego trip hobbies like professional baseball leaving his team in disarray or refer to his teammates as his "supporting cast." Finally, Russell was so respected, he did something none of the other GOAT candidates ever did; he was asked to coach as well as play and he did so well enough to win 2 more NBA championships.

So, Russell was not a great scorer, but he was a dominant rebounder, shotblocker, and the greatest defensive player, leader, and winner in NBA history by a large margin. If it was just about individual stats, the GOAT would be Wilt, easily. But, the point of basketball isn't to score a lot of points, it is to score more points than your opponents enough times and in key situations to win games and championships. Bill Russell did this better than anyone in NBA history, easily. HE is the GOAT.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> Probably the best post in the thread . . . let's see if we can't match it to make the case that Bill Russell is the best ever.
> 
> These are a few basic aspects of a player's game in basketball:
> 
> REBOUNDING: Of all the raw stats (pts,reb,ast,bl,st,to,pf) this is the one that correlates most strongly with winning. Wilt is the greatest statmonger in history, he'd be easily tops in points too if he hadn't changed his style to try to imitate Russell and the only comparable rebounder in NBA history. Russell averaged 22.45 rpg for his career; the third greatest rebounder in NBA history averaged 16.22. To compare, that would be as if the third greatest scorer in NBA history averaged only 21.76ppg, a ridiculously low number. This is one of the greatest areas of dominance over even other HOF players (other than Wilt) ever recorded.
> 
> DEFENSE: Russell is generally regarded as the greatest defensive player ever. Period.
> 
> CLUTCH/PLAYOFF PLAY: Russell is the greatest winner in NBA history. Compared to Michael Jordan, for example, Russell won 11 NBA titles in 13 seasons while Jordan won only 6 in 15 NBA seasons, a clutch/playoff winning percentage over twice as great. He won even though throughout his career he was matched against Wilt Chamberlain, the most statistically dominant player ever. He won with good but not great supporting players early (the Cousy/Sharman/Ramsey trio played with HOF center Ed McCauley for 4 years before McCauley and a top pick were traded for Russell coming in 2nd,3rd,3rd,and 2nd out of a 4 team Eastern conference ... practically a textbook case of mediocrity). He won with great supporting players facing great opposing teams; not just the 3 HOF frontline of St. Louis and the West/Baylor Lakers but the 76 teams featuring Wilt, Luke Walker, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker, Hal Greer, and Wali Jones . . . a collection of supporting talent for Wilt equal or better than the great Howell, Sanders, Havlicek, Sam Jones and KC Jones Celtics. Clutch play comes down to winning . . . Russell won . . . more than anyone . . . and it's not even close.
> 
> SHOTBLOCKING: By all contemporary accounts, Russell was probably the greatest shotblocker to ever play the game. Contemporaries estimate that he averaged 6-8 blocks a game. Former All-Pro/HOF center Neil Johnston was so supposedly so intimidated by him that he gave up basketball, ending his career before he turned 30. And shotblocking allows everyone else on the floor to play much tighter defense so rather than just shutting down one player, it helps every player on the team.
> 
> PASSING: Russell, while not a guard who started with the ball in his hands, was a great high post passing center. In an era where assists were 20% harder to get than modern ball, he averaged 4.3 assists for his career. What is more, he got them without being a featured scorer in the offense, just getting the ball as it moved around and finding cutters or open jump shooters with his outstanding court awareness. Additionally, he had two other rare skills. He was one of the great outlet passers to ever play, starting the famous Celtic fast break after rebounds, a skill that isn't measured in assists (at least under then existing rules). And, his shotblocking was so skilled, he not only blocked shots, he would redirect them to teammates like a pass thus creating even more possessions than shotblocking alone would account for.
> 
> SCORING: This is the one and only area where people say Russell doesn't compete with the other GOAT candidates like MJ, Wilt, and Kareem. But even here, Russell was not a weak point that you could ignore like Ben Wallace. Russell averaged over 15 ppg for his career, and he scored primarily from the high post, forcing the other team to have their center a bit further away from the basket than a low post scorer would.
> 
> INTANGIBLES: Finally, Russell compares only to Kareem among the other GOAT candidates in intangibles. He was always a team leader, bringing out the best in his teammates and leading by example . . . not just on the court but in civil rights (his protest of a racist restaurent caused Boston to stop playing exhibitions in the deep South). Compare to Wilt, who was solely concerned with scoring with his 10,000 (by his own estimate) girlfriends, or Jordan, Mr. Corporate America with Air Jordans produced by child labor in Indonesia. In terms of on the court impact, Russell was an immediate winner from his first year in the league, taking a formerly mediocre Celtic team to a title right away and keeping them there for his whole career. Russell didn't take several years of individual great statistical accomplishments for his team to start winning championships like Wilt and Jordan; nor was he ever considered the second best player on any of his 11 titles like Kareem was on the majority of his. Nor did Russell take years off to pursue ego trip hobbies like professional baseball leaving his team in disarray or refer to his teammates as his "supporting cast." Finally, Russell was so respected, he did something none of the other GOAT candidates ever did; he was asked to coach as well as play and he did so well enough to win 2 more NBA championships.
> 
> So, Russell was not a great scorer, but he was a dominant rebounder, shotblocker, and the greatest defensive player, leader, and winner in NBA history by a large margin. If it was just about individual stats, the GOAT would be Wilt, easily. But, the point of basketball isn't to score a lot of points, it is to score more points than your opponents enough times and in key situations to win games and championships. Bill Russell did this better than anyone in NBA history, easily. HE is the GOAT.


This is a great post. Props.

But the more i read people putting up Russell's name in GOAT discussions (wich is concievable, don't get me wrong), the more my case for Wilt goes stronger.

Yes, one of the measurings of gratness of a basketball player is success (winning). And noone tops Russell in that department...
Still, individual domination should be regarded also. And, in this departament, noone touches Wilt. Only Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson and Shaquille O'Neal come close.
Wilt toyed with the game itself. He was not that serious regarding playing basketball. Plenty stories are told that he would go out in wild dates, not get any sleep, and the day after scoring 50 points in a game. And grabbing 25 rebounds. Wilt was almost bigger than the game itself.
When he scored 50 ppg in a season, the runner up was 19 ppg lower. 19ppg!Can you imagine that?
And i'm not even talking about how he got the apg records for a center.
Wilt scored more, rebounded more than any other player who ever played. Period. 
People talk about Russell's blocks. Yet, there are dozens of stories about opposing players never daring to go into the line trying to score on Wilt.
Wilt was the ultimate intimidator.

Sure, he didn't win as much as Russell. And he had some good supporting casts.
But, dare i say, he never had Bob Cousy or Hondo. And he never had a seasoned team of all stars accostumed to play together and under the same coach.

Not only Wilt has the record for rebounds in a game, he got it against Russell.
He had the edge over Russell in head-to-head battles (i'm too lazy to look it up, but has been posted before).

people may scoff Wilt's 100 point game. But D-Robinson only got to 71 being spoonfed the same way. And Kobe was still 19 points down.

Wether one likes it or not, Wilt Chamberlain domination on the hardwood will never be equalled.

story goes that Wilt once told Michael Jordan. "The NBA changed it's rules to try to stop me. The NBA changed it's rules to help you". And story doesn't tell Jordan's response...


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

True dat. Wilt is the greatest individual player in NBA history. Unfortunately, he got the numbers v. Russell but Russell got the wins (and while Hondo was legit great, Cousy was grossly overrated) so my choice is Russell. He (and Jordan, my #2) might have been lucky . . . there were a lot of last minute miracle saves (Paxson hits the three! Havlicek steals the ball!) but we are talking about comparing history and luck/destiny counts too. Most talented/most dominant/most everything but winning = Wilt.


----------



## Deke

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

russell won in a league that was 1/3 of the size today. basically it was a lesser achievement then making it past the east or west.

MJ is the greatest because of his very high fg%,monster numbers, 1st team defenses and DPOY,mvps,scoring titles, and championships plus hes the only sg to ever lead a team to multiple titles and the only player to be apart of 2 different 3 peats i believe.

quite a resume.


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

greatest SG (or even non-center) sure . . . easy . . . otherwise what does it matter that he is the only SG to ever lead a team to multiple titles. Like saying someone is the only offensive tackle to lead his team to multiple titles; it only matters if his impact is greater than the opponents' quarterbacks' impact.

As for the smaller league theory, that does make it easier to win it all though nowhere near as big a difference as you make out. Problem with your reasoning is that even with a smaller league, the GREATEST players still make the teams (you just don't have as many scrubs) so Russell still faced the best basketball players in the world, they were just concentrated on fewer teams. Thus each round was more difficult (faced more concentrated talent) but the impact of having less total rounds is probably greater than that effect.

That said, 11 championships in 13 years means much more than 6 in 15 despite that. Michael played 179 playoff games, Russell 165, very similar numbers. Even with the easier earlier round serieses, Michael had a playoff series winning percentage of 83%, Russell won 93% so that argument still won't fly. Michael was the second greatest winner of all time, Russell was the greatest.

Oh, and if you include consecutive groupings of 3 straight titles, the Celtics with Russell having an EIGHTPEAT would be essentially two fourpeats so not sure what the big deal about two threepeats when making this particular comparison is.


----------



## luther

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

I have to agree with Paulo in that the reason *people here[/i] think he's the best ever is that they've consistently heard that message from Nike and the NBA since the time they were born. 

That said, he might be the best player ever. I just wouldn't confuse reality with what makes people believe something. Further, I personally don't believe that "best player ever" is worth even debating, because different eras are incompatible. Are we debating how good someone is compared to his competition, or how good he might be otherwise? If the latter, it's impossible to tell and so a waste of time anyway. Jordan was brilliant. Absolutely wonderful to watch. But so (of players I am old enough to remember seeing in person) Magic, Bird, LeBron, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, KG, Pippen, Stockton, Isiah, and others. As good as Jordan? No, probably not, but different. And so is this wine better than that beer? (**** apples and oranges, I prefer the aforementioned.) 

I'd say this: there hasn't been a wing player better than Jordan. But at a certain point of brilliance, it barely matters how you want to argue. It's more like 1a, 1b, 1c than 1, 2, 3. 

And again, I'll agree that the reason people here believe MJ is the best ever is marketing. Never give people too much credit. They almost never deserve it.*


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## luther

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



Deke said:


> russell won in a league that was 1/3 of the size today. basically it was a lesser achievement then making it past the east or west.


The exact opposite argument could be made by the fact that he played in a smaller league. We often hear about the watering down of the league through expansion. Look at some of those old teams; they're nearly all-star teams.


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## PauloCatarino

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> True dat. Wilt is the greatest individual player in NBA history. Unfortunately, he got the numbers v. Russell but Russell got the wins (and while Hondo was legit great, Cousy was grossly overrated) so my choice is Russell. He (and Jordan, my #2) might have been lucky . . . there were a lot of last minute miracle saves (Paxson hits the three! Havlicek steals the ball!) but we are talking about comparing history and luck/destiny counts too. Most talented/most dominant/most everything but winning = Wilt.


Winning championships CAN'T be the decisive factor evaluating Russell and Wilt. Simple as that. Because no player wins at his own. It takes a TEAM.

You may scoff at Cousy's greatness as much as you like, but he was league MVP before Russell's rookie year. And in that season, he was 6th in MVP voting. And he was 10 straight times first team All-Nba. Wich is to say Bob Cousy dominated the position for a decade. Overrated?

Russell won with a plethora of all-stars and HOFers aorund him for years to come. Pair that to the greatest coach in basketball history, and you get a great, great TEAM.

If Wilt's knock is winning, what to say about Legends like Jerry West and Elgin Baylor who had a number of years coming short against the Celtics? Or Bob Petitt?

Yes, Bill russeel was a great player. And the greatest winner in the history of basketball. But he wasn't Wilt's par. This reminds me the year Wilt got the 50-25, Oscar the triple-double season and the MVP going to... Bill Russell.

Winning is a factor, yes. That is what diferentiates guys like Jordan from the Nique Wilkins, Kobe from T-Mac. But it shouldn't be a factor while comparing Russell to Wilt.

I take into account Russell's great team.play and winning record whuile evaluating great players, don't get me wrong. That's the reason why i put him ahead of Shaquille O'Neal in the rankings. But he is below wilt and Kareem in my book.


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## SheriffKilla

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

i love bill russell's game and i think he is definatly up there
however I have not watched nearly enough basketball pre-mid80s to make a good judgement to say he is the greatest

if you ask me who was the most dangerous/valuable player in their prime
I'd say David Robinson
I know he never a championship as the leader of his team and was outplayed by Olajuwon in the playoffs
but really his defense and athletic talents were unparalleled in his prime

if you just look at prime few years or year I would say David Robinson 
but once again this for players I've actually watched play enough to make a good judgement

basketball before the 80s I haven't watched enough to really make a good judgement plus the game was a lot different back then so its hard to compare either way

Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain were very dominating in their eras but I'm not sure they would be able to have nearly the same in todays game(or would they???)


PS: if you look at certain stats they also prove my theory of The Admiral being the greatest in his prime


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## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Winning championships CAN'T be the decisive factor evaluating Russell and Wilt. Simple as that. Because no player wins at his own. It takes a TEAM.
> 
> You may scoff at Cousy's greatness as much as you like, but he was league MVP before Russell's rookie year. And in that season, he was 6th in MVP voting. And he was 10 straight times first team All-Nba. Wich is to say Bob Cousy dominated the position for a decade. Overrated?
> 
> Russell won with a plethora of all-stars and HOFers aorund him for years to come. Pair that to the greatest coach in basketball history, and you get a great, great TEAM.
> 
> If Wilt's knock is winning, what to say about Legends like Jerry West and Elgin Baylor who had a number of years coming short against the Celtics? Or Bob Petitt?
> 
> Yes, Bill russeel was a great player. And the greatest winner in the history of basketball. But he wasn't Wilt's par. This reminds me the year Wilt got the 50-25, Oscar the triple-double season and the MVP going to... Bill Russell.
> 
> Winning is a factor, yes. That is what diferentiates guys like Jordan from the Nique Wilkins, Kobe from T-Mac. But it shouldn't be a factor while comparing Russell to Wilt.
> 
> I take into account Russell's great team.play and winning record whuile evaluating great players, don't get me wrong. That's the reason why i put him ahead of Shaquille O'Neal in the rankings. But he is below wilt and Kareem in my book.



As Red Auerbach himself said, Cousy was a flashy little no defense showboat. He dominated in a weak period (as did Neil Johnston for that matter) but was an inefficient scorer and poor defender. His only real competition at the time was Guy Rodgers who was basically Cousy without scoring and flashy inefficient scorers are always overrated. A step up from Maravich and Iverson (who also got an MVP) because of his ability to set up others but more on their level than that of the elite PGs like Magic, Oscar, Frazier, Stockton, etc. More along the lines of Tim Hardaway.

And yes, when comparing head to head in the GOAT competition, I give Russell the edge over West, Baylor, Pettit, etc. because his teams won just like I give MJ the nod over Drexler, Karl Malone, Hakeem, David Robinson because his teams won. Is it everything . . . no (sorry Robert Horry) . . . is it one of the main factors, yes . . . as important as statistical domination of any category. Wilt v. Russell: I don't see a strong edge for Wilt in any category except scoring and I think the head to head wins, consistently, every year but 66-67, irregardless of the relative talent levels around them, irregardless of the head coach (Russell was the coach for the last two titles), more than makes up for the scoring edge. Wilt to me is #3 in GOAT, though he is certainly the most talented and dominant player of all time and the guy I would draft first if starting an all-time team (as I did the last time we did one, lol).

But I certainly don't think anyone that disagrees and values Wilt's dominance, or MJ's modern era accomplishments, or even Kareem's longevity and lack of weaknesses in the GOAT competition is foolish (not JUST for that anyway) . . . .the same doesn't go for the LeBron/Kobe/Iverson is GOAT types though . . . so be warned.


----------



## kirov

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

scottie pippen and michael jordan...they were both the greatest, just in different ways.that's why they matched together perfectly and did what they did. wilt??no way


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## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

using the pace argument against the 60s will ALWAYS favor modern day players. thats my point.

i guess dennis rodman in 87 was better offensively then russell as well....?

''cuz you have to simplify it''

and bill russell only scored about 5 more ppg and took close to 500+ more shots per year.


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## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

elgin baylor was a SF btw. not a pf. did he play some pf? yes. but so did bird.


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## Pioneer10

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> using the pace argument against the 60s will ALWAYS favor modern day players. thats my point.
> 
> i guess dennis rodman in 87 was better offensively then russell as well....?
> 
> ''cuz you have to simplify it''
> 
> and bill russell only scored about 5 more ppg and took close to 500+ more shots per year.


It's not favoring it's simply placing the stats in perspective. Your view is simply strange: in financial terms it like looking at interest rates w/o looking at inflation as well (i.e. a bond that pays 6% now in a low inflation period looks good but a bond that pays 6% in a high inflation period like the 70's and your actually losing money)

And even when adjusted for pace, 60's players still stand out. Baylor is still a top 5 SF just not as good as Bird and Chamberlain has a case to be made for GOAT even after adjusting for era.


----------



## Deke

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

using the argument of pace will always favor modern generations man. its a flawed *** argument. it cant be a valid argument if EVERY WAY you look at it favors modern generations...

the way i see it, you score what you score, you rebound what you rebound. everyone has different paces and factors but they did what they did, and thats right there. 27 ppg in the 60s is better then 24 ppg regardless of the era imo.

i dont look at kobes 35 and say ''well according to pace'' thats better then wilts 50 ppg. and so on so on...

its just a 1 sided view to always discredit the players of the past if you look at it like that.


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Pace is legit. There were more points, people averaged more shots and rebounds (assists were actually harder to get so you have to adjust them up if anything). But even adjusting for pace, the stars of the 60s still compare to modern players . . . Russell would still be the DPOY pretty much every year; Wilt in his 50 point season would be the equivalent of a 38/17/2 guy today and still the best player in the league.

The argument that devalues and ridicules the players of the past is the one that says players from the 60s didn't have the size and athleticism of modern players (and believe me, you hear it ALL THE TIME). When you adjust for the fact that modern players are measured in shoes rather than barefeet for their official height (adds 1-2 inches) and that 60s records continued to list their college weights (Walt Bellamy weighed 225 pounds . . . in his dreams), there has been little or no change in size. Modern training methods and equipment have made a difference (trying jumping in Chuck Taylors 82 games a year), particularly weight training which was discouraged then (it would make you musclebound), plus of course steroids which are probably quite common now (NBA has a joke of a testing program). But there has NOT been an evolutionary development adding measurable athleticism in 50 years, that's a scientific joke.


----------



## MrJayremmie

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

He isn't right now, if his career ended today.

But he will be... I think he will be a top 5 player of all time.

He is the best 23 year old of all time, imo.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> Pace is legit. There were more points, people averaged more shots and rebounds (assists were actually harder to get so you have to adjust them up if anything). But even adjusting for pace, the stars of the 60s still compare to modern players . . . Russell would still be the DPOY pretty much every year; Wilt in his 50 point season would be the equivalent of a 38/17/2 guy today and still the best player in the league.
> 
> The argument that devalues and ridicules the players of the past is the one that says players from the 60s didn't have the size and athleticism of modern players (and believe me, you hear it ALL THE TIME). When you adjust for the fact that modern players are measured in shoes rather than barefeet for their official height (adds 1-2 inches) and that 60s records continued to list their college weights (Walt Bellamy weighed 225 pounds . . . in his dreams), there has been little or no change in size. Modern training methods and equipment have made a difference (trying jumping in Chuck Taylors 82 games a year), particularly weight training which was discouraged then (it would make you musclebound), plus of course steroids which are probably quite common now (NBA has a joke of a testing program). But there has NOT been an evolutionary development adding measurable athleticism in 50 years, that's a scientific joke.


Great post, and I agree, the whole players are bigger and more athletic now there for they are the better players. To me talent is talent, and players who have had little athletic ability has proven that through all the eras of NBA basketball.


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## 77AJ

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



kirov said:


> scottie pippen and michael jordan...they were both the greatest, just in different ways.that's why they matched together perfectly and did what they did. wilt??no way


Scottie Pippen belongs no where in the GOAT basketball lists. MJ made Pippen a better player, a very great player at that, but no where near the GOAT. Jordan made players better before that was a cliche thing to say in the 2000s.


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## luther

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



23AJ said:


> Jordan made players better before that was a cliche thing to say in the 2000s.


It was already a cliche thing to say in the 80s, specifically about Magic.


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## PauloCatarino

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> As Red Auerbach himself said, Cousy was a flashy little no defense showboat. He dominated in a weak period (as did Neil Johnston for that matter) but was an inefficient scorer and poor defender. His only real competition at the time was Guy Rodgers who was basically Cousy without scoring and flashy inefficient scorers are always overrated. A step up from Maravich and Iverson (who also got an MVP) because of his ability to set up others but more on their level than that of the elite PGs like Magic, Oscar, Frazier, Stockton, etc. More along the lines of Tim Hardaway.
> 
> And yes, when comparing head to head in the GOAT competition, I give Russell the edge over West, Baylor, Pettit, etc. because his teams won just like I give MJ the nod over Drexler, Karl Malone, Hakeem, David Robinson because his teams won. Is it everything . . . no (sorry Robert Horry) . . . is it one of the main factors, yes . . . as important as statistical domination of any category. Wilt v. Russell: I don't see a strong edge for Wilt in any category except scoring and I think the head to head wins, consistently, every year but 66-67, irregardless of the relative talent levels around them, irregardless of the head coach (Russell was the coach for the last two titles), more than makes up for the scoring edge. Wilt to me is #3 in GOAT, though he is certainly the most talented and dominant player of all time and the guy I would draft first if starting an all-time team (as I did the last time we did one, lol).
> 
> But I certainly don't think anyone that disagrees and values Wilt's dominance, or MJ's modern era accomplishments, or even Kareem's longevity and lack of weaknesses in the GOAT competition is foolish (not JUST for that anyway) . . . .the same doesn't go for the LeBron/Kobe/Iverson is GOAT types though . . . so be warned.


From Bob Cousy's nba.com profile:

"Cousy was the heart and soul of a team of stars that featured Bill Russell, Tommy Heinsohn, K. C. Jones, Bill Sharman, and Satch Sanders"

"In 1960, after admiring his play for a decade, former New York Knicks Coach Joe Lapchick called Cousy the best player of all time. After Cousy retired, Celtics owner Walter Brown told a Boston newspaper that "the Celtics wouldn't be here without him. If he had played in New York, he would have been as big as Babe Ruth. I think he is anyway." 

""What Russell was on defense, that's what Cousy was on offense -- a magician. Once that ball reached his hands, the rest of us just took off, never bothering to look back. 
-- Former Celtic great Tommy Heinsohn" 

"The rambunctious rookie almost single-handedly drew fans into the Garden, although Auerbach was still unimpressed with Cousy's flair."

"Until he retired in 1963, Cousy was the one player who brought it all together for Boston with his brilliant playmaking and court savvy. "

"At age 35, Cousy retired as a player. Even his final moments on the court were spent basking in Celtics glory. His last regular-season game became known as "the Boston Tear Party." Cousy was rendered speechless by emotion during a 20-minute farewell statement that was supposed to last only seven minutes. Then a voice cried out from the sold-out Boston Garden, "We love ya, Cooz." Those words from Joe Dillon, a city water worker and certifiable Celtics nut, broke the tension and sent the crowd into a frenzy. *President John Kennedy wired to Cousy: "The game bears an indelible stamp of your rare skills and competitive daring*." 

Also to note, a gamous Hondo quote: "I made a living off of Bob Cousy!"


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> using the argument of pace will always favor modern generations man. its a flawed *** argument. it cant be a valid argument if EVERY WAY you look at it favors modern generations...
> 
> the way i see it, you score what you score, you rebound what you rebound. everyone has different paces and factors but they did what they did, and thats right there. 27 ppg in the 60s is better then 24 ppg regardless of the era imo.
> 
> i dont look at kobes 35 and say ''well according to pace'' thats better then wilts 50 ppg. and so on so on...
> 
> its just a 1 sided view to always discredit the players of the past if you look at it like that.


Your not making sense: the way your looking at things actually discredits all players from the 80's on and any team that wasn't a fastbreak team. No team, NONE, since then has put up as many shots as they did in the 60's. By your way of thinking Jordan can never be considered among the great scorers or the greatest even though he was right up there with Wilt. Your way of thinking is simply *** backwards


----------



## kirov

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



23AJ said:


> Scottie Pippen belongs no where in the GOAT basketball lists. MJ made Pippen a better player, a very great player at that, but no where near the GOAT. Jordan made players better before that was a cliche thing to say in the 2000s.


you didn't understand my post (as usual). I said they were both the greatest, just in different ways-to me scottie pippen's DEFENSE is the GOAT and he didn't mind being a second violin, that's why they matched perfectly.


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## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



PauloCatarino said:


> From Bob Cousy's nba.com profile:
> 
> "Cousy was the heart and soul of a team of stars that featured Bill Russell, Tommy Heinsohn, K. C. Jones, Bill Sharman, and Satch Sanders"
> 
> Also to note, a gamous Hondo quote: "I made a living off of Bob Cousy!"



So then you are saying that when Cousy retires replaced by KC Jones (basically a quicker Rajon Rondo with no shot) that the Celtics and Havlicek would suffer a significant decline? Boston upped it's win total to 59 and won the NBA title again the next year (and 4 of the next 5 NBA titles) and Havlicek upped his scoring from 14 ppg to 20 ppg. Talk is cheap.

Compare to when Russell retired. The two years before he retired, the Celtics won two more NBA titles. Russell retires, all the other starters return (Sam Jones also retired which is significant but he had slipped to a 6th man role), the Celtics win 34 games finishing 6th in their division and missing the playoffs. THAT's the heart of the team.


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## Najee

kirov said:


> you didn't understand my post (as usual). I said they were both the greatest, just in different ways-to me scottie pippen's DEFENSE is the GOAT and he didn't mind being a second violin, that's why they matched perfectly.


Scottie Pippen was a great trapping and passing lane defender, but he could be posted up and taken to school. Dominique Wilkins consistently lit Pippen up on the box, and Jamal Mashburn once ran up 52 on Pippen basically taking him down low.

Pippen also did have some objection to being the second fiddle to Michael Jordan, until Jordan retired the first time. Pippen couldn't quite handle the overwhelming aspects of being the No. 1 man on a team so became more comfortable being the No. 2 man getting all the reputation of a pseudo-No. 1 man.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

I just made the argument that MJ is the best player ever. His case is the fact that he was the best offensive player, best perimeter defender, and best clutch player of his era (or maybe of all time). No one else can say that, and really at its most basic level basketball is about offense, defending, and clutch play. 

However, I can also argue that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the best player ever. His case is based on the fact that he had greater longevity than any player while having maybe the most dominant peak of all time, and being a proven winner.

An easy way to illustrate his longevity is to point out that Kareem was All-NBA first team in the 1986 season when he was 38 years old. And it wasnt some lifetime achievement award. He was 6th in the league in PER and 4th in Win Shares. When he was 38! He was top 10 in MVP voting for 17 straight years (finishing out of the top 5 only two of those 17 years). No one else has been that good for that long.

However, at the same time, he had maybe the most dominant peak of all time. He lead the league in PER in 9 of his first 12 years. He was a close second the other 3 years. Some of the years no one was even close to him. For instance, In 1972 Kareem had a PER of 29.9. Bob Lanier was second with 23.1. Now PER is certainly not everything; I dont consider it to be a perfect statistic by any means because it doesnt translate well across eras. However, it does illustrate who the best player in the league is pretty well and no one was even close to Kareem in those 12 years. Only Wilt and MJ were similar in their era's dominance.

Kareem also won 6 titles. Only MJ and Russell have as many out of legitimate GOAT candidates.

So basically, while MJ may have the peak and winning of Kareem, he didnt have the longevity. Wilt may have the peak too but not the longevity or winning. Russell won even more than Kareem, but first off it was in an era with far fewer teams (thus a greater statistical chance of winning the title in any given year), but secondly he wasnt even close in peak or longevity. Its pretty safe to say that Kareem had the greatest career ever if you measure it in total wins created above and beyond what a normal player in his place wouldve done. 

The only knock on him is that he won a few of his titles while not being the best player on his team. This is certainly true of the 1987 and 1988 Laker titles. He was only a borderline-all-star level player those years. In 1985, it is debateable whether Kareem or Magic was better. Magic finished SLIGHTLY higher in MVP voting, PER, and Win Shares; BUT Kareem won the Finals MVP award and was the team's leading scorer. Id take Kareem that year over Magic by a hair. In 1982, Magic had more Win Shares, finished higher in MVP voting, and won the Finals MVP, while Kareem had the better PER. However, its undeniable that in 1982, the Lakers played through Kareem not Magic. He was the more important player. And while Magic won the Finals MVP in 1980 cause of his amazing game 6 performance, Kareem was the MVP of the league and played incredibly in the finals before getting hurt. He was indisputedly the best player on the team. And obviously in 1971, he was the best player on the Bucks. I'd say he was the most important player on the team for 4 championship teams, and pretty important for 2 others. Of course, MJ was the most important player for 6 and Russell for 11. However, only Tim Duncan also has 4 by my count. Shaq = 3 (Wade was far more important on that Heat team). Bird = 3. Magic = 2 (although if I switched around my thoughts on 1985 he would have three and so would Kareem). Hakeem = 2. Cowens = 2. Basically, while Kareem might not be the greatest winner in the history of the game, he is certainly one of the top 5 (I would say the top 5 winners would be: Russell, MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird).


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## PauloCatarino

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> So then you are saying that when Cousy retires replaced by KC Jones (basically a quicker Rajon Rondo with no shot) that the Celtics and Havlicek would suffer a significant decline? Boston upped it's win total to 59 and won the NBA title again the next year (and 4 of the next 5 NBA titles) and Havlicek upped his scoring from 14 ppg to 20 ppg. *Talk is cheap*.


Yes, it is.
You stated that Boc Cusy was overrated, and even cited Red Auerbach.
A quick look on nba.com provided those quotes of basketball people who were there to see Cooz play saying otherwise. So, yeah, talk is cheap.
Oh, and about your example, should we conclude that Michael Jordan was also overrated because, after his first retirement, and being replaced by a guy named Pete Myers, the Bulls not only didn't implode but managed to stay at the same winning clip? (2 less wins, IIRC)?



> Compare to when Russell retired. The two years before he retired, the Celtics won two more NBA titles. Russell retires, all the other starters return (Sam Jones also retired which is significant but he had slipped to a 6th man role), the Celtics win 34 games finishing 6th in their division and missing the playoffs. THAT's the heart of the team.


Russell was a great player, and obviously the Celtics suffered when he retired. But you forgot to mention how they went from 1969-1970...
1968-1969 (Russell's last year) = 48-34;
1969-1970: 34-48;
1970-1971: 44-38 (enter Dave Cowens);
1971-1972: 56-26;
1972-1973: 68-14;
1973-1974: 56-26 and NBA CHampions;

But het, i'm not trying to diss Bill Russell. I'm just trying to front your "overrated" startement regarding Bob Cousy.


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## sasaint

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

Oscar Robertson was the GOAT.


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## kirov

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



Najee said:


> Scottie Pippen was a great trapping and passing lane defender, but he could be posted up and taken to school. Dominique Wilkins consistently lit Pippen up on the box, and Jamal Mashburn once ran up 52 on Pippen basically taking him down low.
> 
> Pippen also did have some objection to being the second fiddle to Michael Jordan, until Jordan retired the first time. Pippen couldn't quite handle the overwhelming aspects of being the No. 1 man on a team so became more comfortable being the No. 2 man getting all the reputation of a pseudo-No. 1 man.


And exactly what were you trying to prove in your first paragraph? if you wanna play like that, I can find a weakness in every player that is considered a great defender. omg, jamal ONCE ran up 52...**** happens

He did have objection, he did have second thoughts but he didn't go to some other team where he could have been nr.1 (Kobe-Shaq is the first association that pops into my mind).


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## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

Russell won 11 championships in 13 years, 4 in 5 years post-Cousy. Cousy won zero championships without Russell. Despite playing with HOF C and SG, his team was basically mediocre though he put up impressive numbers. He was a poor defender, an inefficient shooter who shot a lot, but a great passer . . . he wasn't the kind of player you can build a winner around, he was a guy who rode the Russell train; sort of like KC Jones. i'm not saying he wasn't a good player, he was one of history's great playmakers. I am saying people who say that playing with the likes of Cousy, Sharman, and Tommy Heinsohn made it easy for Russell haven't looked closely at those players. They weren't that good a team without Russell (even with HOF center Ed McCauley in Russell's place). I am much more impressed with the trio of Sam Jones, Havlicek, and Bailey Howell that replaced the first three but two of those three weren't enough to hold the Celtics together without Russell. Russell is one of the 3 (maybe 4) legit GOAT candidates and that's what the arguement focused on, not trying to diss Cousy particularly, just that it wasn't the people around Russell, it was Russell making the people around him look like champions.

Oh, and many teams rebuild in a 3-5 year window. Continuing without missing a beat is a different ballgame.


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## PauloCatarino

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> Russell won 11 championships in 13 years, 4 in 5 years post-Cousy. Cousy won zero championships without Russell. Despite playing with HOF C and SG, his team was basically mediocre though he put up impressive numbers. He was a poor defender, an inefficient shooter who shot a lot, but a great passer . . . he wasn't the kind of player you can build a winner around, he was a guy who rode the Russell train; sort of like KC Jones. i'm not saying he wasn't a good player, he was one of history's great playmakers. I am saying people who say that playing with the likes of Cousy, Sharman, and Tommy Heinsohn made it easy for Russell haven't looked closely at those players. They weren't that good a team without Russell (even with HOF center Ed McCauley in Russell's place). I am much more impressed with the trio of Sam Jones, Havlicek, and Bailey Howell that replaced the first three but two of those three weren't enough to hold the Celtics together without Russell. *Russell is one of the 3 (maybe 4) legit GOAT candidates and that's what the arguement focused on*, not trying to diss Cousy particularly, just that it wasn't the people around Russell, it was Russell making the people around him look like champions.
> 
> Oh, and many teams rebuild in a 3-5 year window. Continuing without missing a beat is a different ballgame.


For the record, my list is:
1- Wilt;
2- Magic;
3- Jordan;
4- Kareem;
5- Bird;
6- Russell.

I easily concede that Bill Russell was the best Celtic in the Dinasty Celtics. And by a landslide. But no way i'm about to concede that Cousy was Pistol Pete v1. The Dynasty Celtics were the first team to play the "Showtime", free-wheeling, uptempo, fastbreak game. And it all started with Russell's rebound/block and outlet pass (like many years later happened with Kareem). But the recipient was Cousy, who was in charge of the team's offense. 
Yeah, Russell is probably the greatest defender ever. But Cousy was in charge of the other part of the Celtics game. and Russell was NOT an offensive juggernault. 
To defend Russell as the GOAT you don't need to knock Cousy down. Russell was THAT great a player. But Bob Cousy, IMHO, is by his own merits an all-time Top-5 PG. And he should be credited for it.


----------



## Najee

kirov said:


> And exactly what were you trying to prove in your first paragraph? if you wanna play like that, I can find a weakness in every player that is considered a great defender. omg, jamal ONCE ran up 52...**** happens


You wanted to say Scottie Pippen's defense was the GOAT but yet a constant weakness was when he wasn't in a pressing or passing lane situation. And it's not like we're discussing a one-time fluke here, but Pippen could get posted up by elite small forwards and get scored on.



kirov said:


> He did have objection, he did have second thoughts but he didn't go to some other team where he could have been nr.1 (Kobe-Shaq is the first association that pops into my mind).


Well, it wasn't like Pippen didn't try to get traded. During Michael Jordan's retirement, he wanted to go to several already loaded teams in the Western Conference (namely, Phoenix and Houston and nearly going to Seattle). That pattern continued during Pippen's post-Chicago career (Houston, then Portland).


----------



## kirov

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



Najee said:


> You wanted to say Scottie Pippen's defense was the GOAT but yet a constant weakness was when he wasn't in a pressing or passing lane situation. And it's not like we're discussing a one-time fluke here, but Pippen could get posted up by elite small forwards and get scored on.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it wasn't like Pippen didn't try to get traded. During Michael Jordan's retirement, he wanted to go to several already loaded teams in the Western Conference (namely, Phoenix and Houston and nearly going to Seattle). That pattern continued during Pippen's post-Chicago career (Houston, then Portland).


TO ME Pippen's defense is the GOAT!There will always be a smart *** with his negative opinion,trying to impose it to others and criticize every player in the history of NBA.

second paragraph: not sure what you're trying to say.since I'm talking about Jordan, Pippen and the Bulls and you're talking about what was going on during Jordan's retirement and Pippen's post Chicago days...


----------



## BadBaronRudigor

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

For the record, I go Sidney Moncrief for best wing defender of all time, Bobby Jones for most versatile (1st team all-D as a PF, a SF, and a C plus 6th man of year and another 1st team all D in a year where he played as much SG as anything else with a front line of Moses, Barkley, Erving), Walt Frazier as best point defender, and of course Russell as GOAT defender . . . a great defensive intimidator who blocks shots has a double impact, it takes a great ability disparity for a non-big to have more impact than a top post/shotblocker.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



Najee said:


> Scottie Pippen was a great trapping and passing lane defender, but he could be posted up and taken to school. Dominique Wilkins consistently lit Pippen up on the box, and Jamal Mashburn once ran up 52 on Pippen basically taking him down low.
> 
> Pippen also did have some objection to being the second fiddle to Michael Jordan, until Jordan retired the first time. Pippen couldn't quite handle the overwhelming aspects of being the No. 1 man on a team so became more comfortable being the No. 2 man getting all the reputation of a pseudo-No. 1 man.


Having watched nearly every game of Scottie's career, I have to say that you're waaaaay reaching if you think he wasn't an incredible on-ball defender. 

An offensive player that is going off is likely to have a big game regardless of who is on him... having Dominique Wilkins put up a few points is certainly nothing to be ashamed of. You know... Russell gave up a few points to that Chamberlain guy.

(also, the Mashburn game was 50 points, and it was in overtime.. Jim Jackson went for 38 that game so there were plenty of folks to be covered on the perimeter... especially with MJ retired... also, Scottie was in foul trouble)

Pippen could do it all defensively... certainly he was as good a help-side defender as I've ever seen, post or perimeter. He could man up on anyone from PG's to powerforwards and hold is own.

I encourage people to go back and watch the games... I'm not making this stuff up. 

Is he the greatest of all time? I don't know... I do know that guys like Sidney Moncrief, Michael Cooper, and others (heck, there's a case to be made for MJ, when he was locked in) are definitely up there.

Anyway, it makes me chuckle any time anyone comes on here and criticizes Pippen's D... its like picking on Peyton Manning or Tom Brady for throwing an interception, or Ray Lewis for missing a tackle... nobody is perfect.


----------



## kirov

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

Case Closed:worship:


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## John

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



kirov said:


> TO ME Pippen's defense is the GOAT!There will always be a smart *** with his negative opinion,trying to impose it to others and criticize every player in the history of NBA.
> 
> second paragraph: not sure what you're trying to say.since I'm talking about Jordan, Pippen and the Bulls and you're talking about what was going on during Jordan's retirement and Pippen's post Chicago days...



I am one of the smart ***, incase someone ask you who, can say John from basketballforum.


----------



## kirov

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

Internet tough guy.beware


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## OdenRoyLMA2

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



theflyballa said:


> He's not the GOAT. If we're going by stats, it's Wilt. If we're going by accomplishments, it's Bill Russell. And if we're going by pure individual talent, skill, and athleticism, it's *Kobe*.


Kobe is NOT better than Jordan. Not only did Jordan achieve far more in his career, but he beats him in virtually every statistical category. Look it up.


----------



## theEnforcer

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

Winning 11 titles in a 8-10-team league, Russell's teams overcame about (11x9=99) other teams en route to those 11 titles. 
Jordan's Bulls won 6 titles vs 26-28 other teams: 6x27= 162 opponents overcome.

The Bulls had to win (4x3=) 12 consecutive playoff series to 3-peat. Those Celts won 8 straight, 2 rounds each (16). Da Bulls did it twice. 

Duncan's 4 rings (vs 28-29 opponents) may arguably represent as much or greater success than Russell's 11, away back when. Both TD and MJ were as big, if not bigger, parts of their teams' success than was Russell.

Maybe Pippen was the Bull most equivalent to Russell, as the defensive anchor. Jordan was equivalent to 2 or 3 runofthemill Hall-of-Famers


----------



## buduan

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



theEnforcer said:


> Winning 11 titles in a 8-10-team league, Russell's teams overcame about (11x9=99) other teams en route to those 11 titles.
> Jordan's Bulls won 6 titles vs 26-28 other teams: 6x27= 162 opponents overcome.
> 
> The Bulls had to win (4x3=) 12 consecutive playoff series to 3-peat. Those Celts won 8 straight, 2 rounds each (16). Da Bulls did it twice.
> 
> Duncan's 4 rings (vs 28-29 opponents) may arguably represent as much or greater success than Russell's 11, away back when. Both TD and MJ were as big, if not bigger, parts of their teams' success than was Russell.
> 
> Maybe Pippen was the Bull most equivalent to Russell, as the defensive anchor. Jordan was equivalent to 2 or 3 runofthemill Hall-of-Famers


Another way to look at it is the Russell led teams had to face a league with a higher concentration of talent that they faced more often and knew their tendencies better, and still couldn't stop them. To me that is more impressive than dominating a watered down league with alot more cellar dwellers.


----------



## someone

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



theflyballa said:


> He's not the GOAT. If we're going by stats, it's Wilt. If we're going by accomplishments, it's Bill Russell. And if we're going by pure individual talent, skill, and athleticism, it's Kobe.


hahahahahahahaahahaha kobe

hahahahahah

hahahhahhahahahahahahahhahahahahah

kobe

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahah


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## Nightmute

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

Jordan is the G.O.A.T. because he was the product of a perfect storm. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, and the rivalry between their 2 franchises opened the NBA up to a more mainstream audience. Due to this a greater number of people were catching glimpses of the 6'6" guard who could rack up the points and throw down monster jams. Magic soon left the game, as did Larry and Michael became the guy who everyone talked about. Bottom line casual NBA fans love to see players score, and Michael did that in bundles. He also came around when the business of marketing was taking off in ways never heard of. This is mainly the reason he is most often perceived as the G.O.A.T., that's not to take away anything from Michael as a player. He is the most dominating perimeter player of all time and one of the greatest 2 way players to ever touch a basketball.


----------



## someone

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



Nightmute said:


> Jordan is the G.O.A.T. because he was the product of a perfect storm. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, and the rivalry between their 2 franchises opened the NBA up to a more mainstream audience. Due to this a greater number of people were catching glimpses of the 6'6" guard who could rack up the points and throw down monster jams. Magic soon left the game, as did Larry and Michael became the guy who everyone talked about. Bottom line casual NBA fans love to see players score, and Michael did that in bundles. He also came around when the business of marketing was taking off in ways never heard of. This is mainly the reason he is most often perceived as the G.O.A.T., that's not to take away anything from Michael as a player. He is the most dominating perimeter player of all time and one of the greatest 2 way players to ever touch a basketball.


great post. I think a part of it has to be marketing. The other, GOAT. :biggrin:


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## theEnforcer

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



buduan said:


> Another way to look at it is the Russell led teams had to face a league with a higher concentration of talent that they faced more often and knew their tendencies better, and still couldn't stop them. To me that is more impressive than dominating a watered down league with alot more cellar dwellers.


How do you know the talent concentration was higher in the '50s-60s, and 'watered down' in the '90s? Does one team gain any advantage when both know the other's tendencies? If there are 'alot more cellar dwellers' today, aren't there also more elite teams? Do the weakest teams even get in the playoffs?

The first Celtics title came vs the (34-38) .472 Hawks (in 7 games); the Celts had reached the Finals by beating the .528 Nationals (in 3): two opponents with a combined .500 record.
Their 2nd came by beating .486 Syr and the .458 Lakers. In their first 8 title runs they had to beat *1* team to reach the Finals. Nowadays, there are *3* chances to get knocked off before even getting there.


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## theEnforcer

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

How do I delete a message?


----------



## theEnforcer

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



Nightmute said:


> ... Michael became the guy who everyone talked about. ... marketing was taking off ... This is mainly the reason he is most often perceived as the G.O.A.T., ...


Heck, and I thought it was because he elevated his team, carrying them through one playoff series after another, almost never having a bad game, and eventually winning 6 titles. 

And all along, it was 'marketing' and being 'talked about' that made all those shots go in, made him dominate all those alleged MVP's (Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Malone). Somehow I missed all that.


----------



## buduan

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



theEnforcer said:


> How do you know the talent concentration was higher in the '50s-60s, and 'watered down' in the '90s? Does one team gain any advantage when both know the other's tendencies? If there are 'alot more cellar dwellers' today, aren't there also more elite teams? Do the weakest teams even get in the playoffs?
> 
> The first Celtics title came vs the (34-38) .472 Hawks (in 7 games); the Celts had reached the Finals by beating the .528 Nationals (in 3): two opponents with a combined .500 record.
> Their 2nd came by beating .486 Syr and the .458 Lakers. In their first 8 title runs they had to beat *1* team to reach the Finals. Nowadays, there are *3* chances to get knocked off before even getting there.


Because almost every team had 2 sometimes 3 HOF's. And do teams gain an advantage from knowing their opponents tendencies? Is that a real question? Are you serious?


----------



## buduan

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



theEnforcer said:


> Heck, and I thought it was because he elevated his team, carrying them through one playoff series after another, almost never having a bad game, and eventually winning 6 titles.
> 
> And all along, it was 'marketing' and being 'talked about' that made all those shots go in, made him dominate all those alleged MVP's (Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Malone). Somehow I missed all that.


His accomplishments are not greater than Kareem, the real GOAT. So yes, marketing played a large part in his mystique and this mythical GOAT title that so many people like to give him.

As far as him dominating MVP's, the only player in the 4 you named where a case could be made he "punked" him is Drexler. Who was never MVP. He never defended or was matched up with Barkley or Malone. And when he defended Magic in the '91 Finals it was Jordan that was getting punked badly. They had to switch Pippen on to him.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



buduan said:


> His accomplishments are not greater than Kareem, the real GOAT. So yes, marketing played a large part in his mystique and this mythical GOAT title that so many people like to give him.
> 
> As far as him dominating MVP's, the only player in the 4 you named where a case could be made he "punked" him is Drexler. Who was never MVP. He never defended or was matched up with Barkley or Malone. *And when he defended Magic in the '91 Finals it was Jordan that was getting punked badly.* They had to switch Pippen on to him.


Revisionist history. Just because Scottie did a great job on him doesn't mean MJ was getting "punked". Even in Game 1... the only one the Lakers managed to squeak out... Jordan had 36 points and 12 assists (and 8 rebounds) to Magic's 19 and 11. I fail to see the punking...


----------



## buduan

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



Dornado said:


> Revisionist history. Just because Scottie did a great job on him doesn't mean MJ was getting "punked". Even in Game 1... the only one the Lakers managed to squeak out... Jordan had 36 points and 12 assists (and 8 rebounds) to Magic's 19 and 11. I fail to see the punking...


Revisionist my ***. Magic had a triple double and the Lakers stole one on the road. The series was never really close after they moved Pippen to Magic in game 2. Magic posting up Jordan in game 1 put the Bulls on their heels defensively and he picked them apart either by making the correct pass or scoring. There was a reason the move was made.


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## TheTruth34

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Why do most people consider Jordan the GOAT? Let's look at a partial list:
> 
> 
> - 10 scoring titles, many on staggering efficiency (there have been just 10 seasons of 30+ ppg/60+% TS in history, and Jordan has 4 of them).
> 
> - 5 MVP's
> 
> - 10 top 2 finishes in MVP voting
> 
> - 7 The Sporting News MVP Awards (voted on by coaches and players)
> 
> - 6 rings
> 
> - 6 Finals MVP's
> 
> - DPOY award
> 
> - 3 top 2 finishes in DPOY voting (1988, '90, '93), and 8 years in the top 6 in DPOY voting)
> 
> - Only player to ever win MVP/DPOY/Scoring Title in the same season.
> 
> - One of only two players to ever lead the league in scoring and steals in the same season, and he did it three times (Iverson did it twice).
> 
> - The first and to this day one of only 3 players to record 200+ steals/100+ blocks in the same season, and he did it *twice, in consecutive seasons* (235 stl/126 blk in '87 and 256 stl/131 blk in '88). No one else has ever done it twice.
> 
> - 3 steals titles; 7 top 3 finishes in steals per game.
> 
> - most blocked shots by a guard in history, both single season and career.
> 
> - Considered the best offensive *and* defensive player in the league by many for a period of 5-6 seasons ('88-'93).
> 
> - Considered the undisputed best player in the league by a large majority (90+%) for at least 7-8 seasons.
> 
> - A top 3 clutch player in history AT THE VERY LEAST.
> 
> - Career regular season averages of 30.1 pts/6.2 reb/5.3 ast/2.3 stl/50% FG.
> 
> - 5 year prime regular season averages of 32.1 pts/6.8 reb/6.3 ast/2.7 stl/52% FG
> 
> - Career playoff averages of 33.4 pts/6.4 reb/5.7 ast/2.1 stl/49% FG.
> 
> - 5 year prime playoff averages of 34.5 pts/6.7 reb/6.9 ast/2.3 stl/51% FG
> 
> - 7 seasons leading the league in PER
> 
> - 10 top 2 finishes in PER
> 
> - 4 seasons leading the league in EFF
> 
> - 7 top 2 finishes in EFF
> 
> - 8 seasons leading the league in Win Shares
> 
> - 10 top 3 finishes in Win Shares
> 
> - 8 seasons leading the league in Win Shares Above Average
> 
> - 9 seasons leading the league in Player Wins
> 
> - 10 top 2 finishes in Player Wins
> 
> - Led teams with three of the 10 best offensive efficiencies of all time. Proved that he was able to integrate high scoring and winning basketball.
> 
> - Led his teams to an average of 65 wins per season during their championship runs.
> 
> 
> 
> The list is honestly endless. People (who shall remain nameless) who spout foolish nonsense like "it was because of marketing" or "the media" are kidding themselves and shouldn't be taken seriously.


thats all you need to say. nothing more. MICHAEL JORDAN IS BASKETBALL.


----------



## theEnforcer

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



buduan said:


> Because almost every team had 2 sometimes 3 HOF's. And do teams gain an advantage from knowing their opponents tendencies? Is that a real question? Are you serious?


Read my statement again: "_Does one team gain any advantage when *both know the other's* tendencies?"_ Maybe you think every other team studied Boston, who in turn paid no attention to others. I've read Russell's books, and he was obsessive about studying his opponents. Coach Auerbach was a lot better than his contemporaries, a lot of whom were just injured or recently-retired players.

No one is in the HOF while they are playing. Was KC Jones a greater player because he'd someday be voted in? Standards for the Hall were a lot lower a few decades ago. How about that Andy Phillip? --
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/phillan01.html

I thought we'd see the 2 best players in the world in the '91 Finals, going head to head. But the 2 best players in that Finals were Jordan and Pippen. And so, no contest.

Jordan vs the best of the opposition, in Finals:
1991 : 31.2 pts, 6.6 reb, 11.4 ast, 2.8 stl, 1.4 blk, .662 TS%
Magic: 18.6 - 8.0 - 12.4 - 1.4 - 0.0 - .608

1992 : 35.8 - 4.8 - 6.5 - 1.7 - 0.3 - .625
Drex : 24.8 - 7.5 - 5.3 - 1.3 - 1.0 - .520

1993 MJ : 41.0 - 8.5 - 6.3 - 1.7 - 0.7 - .556
Barkley : 27.3 - 13. - 5.7 - 1.2 - 0.5 - .542

1996 : 27.3 - 5.3 - 4.2 - 1.7 - 0.2 - .535
Kemp : 23.3 - 10. - 2.2 - 1.3 - 2.0 - .630
- Shawn Kemp was the only player to (perhaps) outplay Jordan in a Finals.

1997 : 32.3 - 7.0 - 6.0 - 1.2 - 0.8 - .531
Malone 23.8 - 10.3 - 3.5 - 1.7 - 0.3 - .483

1998 : 33.5 - 4.0 - 2.3 - 1.8 - 0.7 - .514
Malone 25. - 10.5 - 3.8 - 1.0 - 1.2 - .551

In these 2 Jazz Finals combined, Jordan averaged about 40% of what Utah scored. Who else has come close to this?


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

It's pure marketing.

Like others have said before, Wilt is the GOAT if you go by the numbers.
If you go by rings, it's Bill.
If you want extended excellence it is Kareem.

People tend to really underrate Pippen. He is probably 2nd best SF of all time after Bird. I think he was the better perimeter defender of the duo as well, Pippen took on the toughest assignment and usually shutdown or significantly slowed down any SF, SG or PG he was up against.

If you go by something more subjective, I'd make a strong argument that Magic is the GOAT and probably the best player to build a title contending team around.


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## Bon]{eRz

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



BadBaronRudigor said:


> CLUTCH/PLAYOFF PLAY: Russell is the greatest winner in NBA history. Compared to Michael Jordan, for example, Russell won 11 NBA titles in 13 seasons while Jordan won only 6 in 15 NBA seasons, a clutch/playoff winning percentage over twice as great.


I was about to post that this argument doesn't stack up because Russell winning 11/13 would not be as difficult as Jordan winning 6/15 in a league more than 3 times bigger than that in Russell's day. 

But then I crunched the numbers. The odds of any one team winning 11/13 championships in an 8 team league where every team has an equal 1/8 chance to win in any year are:

(1/8)^11*(7/8)^2 = 0.0000000089% or once in every 10,000,000,000 13-year period 

Assuming the league had 27 teams during Jordan's 15 seasons which we're counting (some seasons there were less than 27, some more), the odds of any one team winning 6/15 championships in the 27 team league where every team has an equal 1/27 chance to win in any year are:

(1/27)^6*(26/27)^9 = 0.00000018% or once in every 500,000,000 15-year period

From a purely statistical viewpoint (for what its worth), not taking into account teammates, quality of opposition and other factors which affect any team's chances of winning, 11/13 championships in an 8 team league is more difficult to achieve than 6/15 in a 27 team leaguge.


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## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



KennethTo said:


> It's pure marketing.
> 
> Like others have said before, Wilt is the GOAT if you go by the numbers.
> If you go by rings, it's Bill.
> If you want extended excellence it is Kareem.


Yeah, and if you want all 3, it's Jordan.



> Pippen took on the toughest assignment and usually shutdown or significantly slowed down any SF, SG or PG he was up against.


Incorrect, but a commonly spouted myth. Pippen guarded SF's with 3 exceptions in 10 years. If the best perimeter player happened to be a SF, Pippen took them. If they were a SG, combo guard, or occasionally a PG, Jordan took them.


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## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



buduan said:


> Revisionist my ***. Magic had a triple double and the Lakers stole one on the road. The series was never really close after they moved Pippen to Magic in game 2. Magic posting up Jordan in game 1 put the Bulls on their heels defensively and he picked them apart either by making the correct pass or scoring. There was a reason the move was made.


Yeah man, Pippen did so well that Jackson pulled Pippen OFF Magic (and put Jordan back on him) for substantial portions of game 3 (including the 4th and OT), half of game 4, and all of game 5. :lol:


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## PauloCatarino

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



TheTruth34 said:


> thats all you need to say. nothing more. *MICHAEL JORDAN IS BASKETBALL*.


lol


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*



TheTruth34 said:


> thats all you need to say. nothing more. MICHAEL JORDAN IS BASKETBALL.


WTF! Some people around here suffer from too much television syndrome.


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## Najee

*Give me a break*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Yeah man, Pippen did so well that Jackson pulled Pippen OFF Magic (and put Jordan back on him) for substantial portions of game 3 (including the 4th and OT), half of game 4, and all of game 5. :lol:


It's amazing how many people on this site love to revise Scottie Pippen's history, isn't it? Magic Johnson's averages in the 1991 NBA Finals were the same to higher than his regular-season numbers. 

In Game 2, Pippen was bodying up on Magic, who complained to the refs about Pippen fouling him and the Chicago fans interpreted it as Pippen was shutting him down. The Lakers as a team shot poorly in Game 2, not just Magic.


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## Dornado

*Re: Give me a break*



Najee said:


> It's amazing how many people on this site love to revise Scottie Pippen's history, isn't it? Magic Johnson's averages in the 1991 NBA Finals were the same to higher than his regular-season numbers.
> 
> In Game 2, Pippen was bodying up on Magic, who complained to the refs about Pippen fouling him and the Chicago fans interpreted it as Pippen was shutting him down. The Lakers as a team shot poorly in Game 2, not just Magic.


Those moments in game 2 still helped change the momentum for that entire series...

I don't understand your vendetta against Scottie Pippen... the guy was one hell of a basketball player...


----------



## Fray

*Re: Why is Micheal Jordan the Greatest ever?*

Marketing is definately the reason why the average person thinks MJ is the GOAT. But this doesn't take away from how good he was. He shouldn't be regarded as the undisputed best player of all time but he is probably still on top. Wilt, Russel, Kareem are all close and an argument for one of them being better than Jordan is understandable but Jordan was still the greatest, imo.

The problem with some posters is that they get sick of hearing people overrate Jordan and then they themselves begin to underrate him.


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## EGarrett

*Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Well, since 50% of the discussion on this board is about Kobe, and the other 50% is about whether he's better than Jordan, here's one everyone can jump on. Jordan was apparently giving a speech at a basketball camp a day or two ago and a kid asked him who would win a one-on-one battle between himself and Kobe. To my surprise, he actually gave a frank answer.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zqlBUj9bFC4&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zqlBUj9bFC4&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

No word yet on whether he then broke into a chorus of "Kobe, tell me how my *** tastes."

The video also has some other footage of him dunking a few times and playing the people at the camp one-on-one (watch for him talking **** to a grade-schooler after sticking a jumper in his face) and other stuff at 45 years old. I haven't watched the rest of it yet.


----------



## LameR

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Jordan in his prime > anyone

I don't see how this is really an issue. Kobe would put up a better fight than 99.99% of others though.


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## Silent Lamb

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Jordan was the GOAT. No one could have beaten him, ever. One on one or on teams.


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## kflo

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Silent Lamb said:


> Jordan was the GOAT. No one could have beaten him, ever. One on one or on teams.


people did beat him on teams.


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## LionOfJudah

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Jordan wouldn't of let the meltdown that the Lakers had in the finals happen. Period. 
Jordan would of also stopped Paul Perice himself and not hide on D guarding Rondo.


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## JerryWest

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Wilt would have slaughtered him one on one.

As for in a team game, Magic was better.


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## LionOfJudah

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Jordan may be about the same size but he sure seemed stronger and even more explosive than Kobe. I think of Kobe as a really really athletic Reggie Miller more than a Jordan.


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## Plastic Man

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

This really isn't an issue. He's absolutely correct. 

The only thing that bothers me with these comparisons and topics is that Kobe is probably the only player in recent history to be faulted for not being better than MJ or at least his equal. The non stop comparisons, the media forcing Kobe vs. MJ stuff down our throats for nearly a decade, etc really make it hard to appreciate Bryant for being the great player that he is (especially for non Laker fans , I guess). Nothing seems to be good enough, because, to be frank, Jordan did set some stratospheric standards for his "heirs". I guess Bryant will never be remembered for all the outstanding achievements and accomplishments/accolades when he retires, but rather for being the 2nd best SG ever and a player that was compared to Jordan since his teens and could never reach his level. 

On the other hand, it really makes me wonder how much criticism Wade, LeBron and the other followers will have to endure if they fail to win in their careers or fail short in comparison to MJ (or perhaps another player). I'd say that not much, since James is already being called the King and is portrayed as the next coming of Jesus (or Jordan) despite not winning a single thing (okay, minus the 2 All Star MVPs and a scoring title) in the 5 years he's been in the league. 

Meh, this dead horse beating crap is really starting to get old.


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

i think jordan was a superior overall player due to his defense...however, i think kobe is jordan's equal when it comes to scoring...kobe is one of the best jumpshooters in the history of the game...

when it comes down to it, good offense will always overcome good defense in one-on-one...therefore, defensive prowess will play a smaller role than one's offensive game...since kobe's offensive game is just as good as jordan's, if not better due to his range and pure jumpshot, i think a one-one game would be closer than many here think...if they played ten games i could see kobe winning at least 3 games because of his ability as a pure scorer/shooter...


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## Prolific Scorer

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Plastic Man said:


> This really isn't an issue. He's absolutely correct.
> 
> The only thing that bothers me with these comparisons and topics is that Kobe is probably the only player in recent history to be faulted for not being better than MJ or at least his equal. The non stop comparisons, the media forcing Kobe vs. MJ stuff down our throats for nearly a decade, etc really make it hard to appreciate Bryant for being the great player that he is (especially for non Laker fans , I guess). Nothing seems to be good enough, because, to be frank, Jordan did set some stratospheric standards for his "heirs". I guess Bryant will never be remembered for all the outstanding achievements and accomplishments/accolades when he retires, but rather for being the 2nd best SG ever and a player that was compared to Jordan since his teens and could never reach his level.
> 
> On the other hand, it really makes me wonder how much criticism Wade, LeBron and the other followers will have to endure if they fail to win in their careers or fail short in comparison to MJ (or perhaps another player). I'd say that not much, since James is already being called the King and is portrayed as the next coming of Jesus (or Jordan) despite not winning a single thing (okay, minus the 2 All Star MVPs and a scoring title) in the 5 years he's been in the league.
> 
> Meh, this dead horse beating crap is really starting to get old.


*What do you expect? Kobe came in the league emulating Jordan's game all the way down to the tongue wag.

That's like a African American ex NFL Running Back coming home and killing his White Girlfriend, running from the Police and then people not wanting him to be compared to OJ Simpson. lol.*


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## BlakeJesus

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



bootstrenf said:


> i think jordan was a superior overall player due to his defense...however, i think kobe is jordan's equal when it comes to scoring...kobe is one of the best jumpshooters in the history of the game...
> 
> when it comes down to it, good offense will always overcome good defense in one-on-one...therefore, defensive prowess will play a smaller role than one's offensive game...since kobe's offensive game is just as good as jordan's, if not better due to his range and pure jumpshot, i think a one-one game would be closer than many here think...if they played ten games i could see kobe winning at least 3 games because of his ability as a pure scorer/shooter...


I agree with every aspect of this post.


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## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



GregOden said:


> I agree with every aspect of this post.


thank you, thank you very much....:biggrin:


----------



## Plastic Man

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Prolific Scorer said:


> *What do you expect? Kobe came in the league emulating Jordan's game all the way down to the tongue wag.
> 
> That's like a African American ex NFL Running Back coming home and killing his White Girlfriend, running from the Police and then people not wanting him to be compared to OJ Simpson. lol.*


Yes, I'm sure that's why Kobe was/is compared to Jordan. Good reply!


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## P-Rez25

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

anyone who ever watched MJ play would have to agree, but LameR does have a point, Kobe would atleast have a chance. a small chance


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## Ballscientist

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

My idea is always similar to Michael Jordan.


----------



## MrJayremmie

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Everybody should know this... Not controversial at all.

But it doesn't make Kobe any less of a player because he isn't as good as MJ. Kobe was the best player in the NBA for a couple years and is still one of the best in the league, and has accomplished a hell of a lot over his career and will go down as one of the best 2-3 SGs ever (even though there is quite a gap between 1 and 2).


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## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

lol.
I wonder if Michael Jordan knows what "contest" means...


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## MrJayremmie

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

By contest, i think he means that its not even debatable, not that it wouldn't be a challenge.


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## KDOS

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Of course Jordan would say this. It would be stupid not to...


Anyway, I love how he responded about the defense though. Its the exact answer you would read from these message boards.


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## Basel

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*


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## KDOS

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Just finished watching the vid. MJ still has that swagger, lol. Man I miss this guy.


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## The Solution

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Jordan is by far the greatest ever, simply for what he did in his time when Magic and Bird left. Jordan had two 3 peats! Its hard to get one. I mean the man was so great at what he did he left the NBA because of boredom (and probably because the loss of his dad)

Still Jordan did things that was so great for basketball he will always be considered the GOAT. Which to me he is the GOAT


----------



## KDOS

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Not only is Jordan immensely talented and much more athletic, his will and drive is what seperates him from Kobe.


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## Basel

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Great video overall, by the way. Jordan's great.


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## DaRizzle

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Calling ChrisRichards....ChrisRichards??


----------



## carrrnuttt

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Plastic Man said:


> The only thing that bothers me with these comparisons and topics is that Kobe is probably the only player in recent history to be faulted for not being better than MJ or at least his equal.


A large part of the issue is actually BECAUSE a lot of Kobe fans declare, as loudly as possible, that Kobe IS the equal of, or even surpasses Jordan.



bootstrenf said:


> i think jordan was a superior overall player due to his defense...however, i think kobe is jordan's equal when it comes to scoring...kobe is one of the best jumpshooters in the history of the game...
> 
> when it comes down to it, good offense will always overcome good defense in one-on-one...therefore, defensive prowess will play a smaller role than one's offensive game...since kobe's offensive game is just as good as jordan's, if not better due to his range and pure jumpshot, i think a one-one game would be closer than many here think...if they played ten games i could see kobe winning at least 3 games because of his ability as a pure scorer/shooter...


The thing is though, Kobe HAS been "stopped" during various crucial Playoffs and Finals games on a national stage. This is something that has never happened to Jordan. Either Kobe's offense is not as overpowering as your post would have us believe, or his offense is not strong enough to overcome his own lack of will. Either way, his offense has been proven to falter when it has mattered most. In a one-on-one contest against a prime MJ, I am pretty confident that Jordan's will on defense will quickly overcome Kobe's lack of this on offense. Then again, you can't really underestimate Kobe's NEED to show up MJ, so you know he'll be as eager as a puppy in that contest - but that can also lead to mistakes.



MrJayremmie said:


> By contest, i think he means that its not even debatable, not that it wouldn't be a challenge.


I think he meant that Jordan wouldn't know what a contest is, in the exaggerated context that he's never really been subjected to one, especially one-on-one.


----------



## squeemu

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



carrrnuttt said:


> The thing is though, Kobe HAS been "stopped" during various crucial Playoffs and Finals games on a national stage. This is something that has never happened to Jordan.


Um...Jordan was stopped several times in the playoffs before the threepeat, and also during his "comeback" year. I love how fans always conveniently forget that year, or they say he wasn't "in shape." He had had two months at that point to get "in shape." The Magic were just better.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

jordan would not beat kobe anywhere close to 100% of the time, so any single one-on-one matchup would depend alot on who is hitting their shots. it's absurd to think kobe couldn't beat jordan in a game of one-on-one. now, if they played 100 times, i'd be pretty confident in jordan winning a majority of the games.


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## kflo

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



squeemu said:


> Um...Jordan was stopped several times in the playoffs before the threepeat, and also during his "comeback" year. I love how fans always conveniently forget that year, or they say he wasn't "in shape." He had had two months at that point to get "in shape." The Magic were just better.


and the bulls didn't have the right pieces. the loss of grant was a big loss. but it just shows that jordan was somewhat dependent on his circumstances. it so happened the team brought in the right pieces for '96.


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## EGarrett

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



carrrnuttt said:


> The thing is though, Kobe HAS been "stopped" during various crucial Playoffs and Finals games on a national stage. This is something that has never happened to Jordan. Either Kobe's offense is not as overpowering as your post would have us believe, or his offense is not strong enough to overcome his own lack of will.


Very interesting logical question here. Why DOES Kobe's offense sometimes fail in crucial games?

I don't think it's his lack of scoring ability as much as it is his lack of basketball IQ biting him in the butt. His (smart) opponents probably know that he doesn't know how to balance using his teammates with scoring, so they can attack him aggressively and know that he'll either respond by shooting a whole bunch, maybe scoring a lot, and take his teammates out of the game, or he'll try to defer to his teammates and become passive and fall out of the offense.


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## Brandname

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



kflo said:


> jordan would not beat kobe anywhere close to 100% of the time, so any single one-on-one matchup would depend alot on who is hitting their shots. it's absurd to think kobe couldn't beat jordan in a game of one-on-one. now, if they played 100 times, i'd be pretty confident in jordan winning a majority of the games.


True. 

I would however expect it to be along the lines of 60/40 Jordan or something like that.

EDIT - I also don't think Kobe is a better shooter than Jordan. I haven't seen very many players in all my years of watching the NBA that can shoot as well as Jordan midrange.


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## f22egl

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I think Jordan would be heavily favored in his best years from when he won his 3 championships. At least MJ would limit Kobe to some jumpers and MJ would take it to the rack and dunk all over Kobe. If Kobe got hot from 3, maybe he could win a game or two out of 10.


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## Pnack

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

There's something about Kobe and Jordan that puts them in a league of their own, and it's not necessarily the skill they possess. Simply put, Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant are the greatest competitors to ever step foot on the hardwood. There was something in their genes that gave them the ability to be the most driven mother****ers EVER.

If you read that article in SI about Kobe, it talked about how he could not face defeat under any circumstance. If he got beat even in practice, he would make the guy stay for hours afterwards while they played one on one. Jordan was the same way...THEY HATE LOSING. Many guys throughout the years may have been as talented as the two but that killer instinct was missing.

Micheal was undoubtedly the same way, just look at the problems he has had with gambling. Jordan, like Kobe always thinks he can win and won't accept losing as the outcome. Even in the casino where the games are designed with the odds in their favor.

For those who say that Jordan was far better than Kobe, you are just purely ignorant. There's nothing else I can really say about that other than you are utterly blind. Don't be fooled by the media, half the people on this board have probably never seen more than half a dozen Jordan games. He was great yes, but still human.

Jordan didn't win six championships. The Chicago Bulls won six championships, granted that basketball is a team game. It takes a lot more than an individual player to win titles. And five great players playing against a great team will win anyday, the Detroit Pistons proved that when they beat the star-studded roster of the Lakers in '04. Of course Micheal was the centerpiece of the Bulls dynasty but he was surrounded by a lot of great talent.

My advice to everyone is to follow the simple advice of Mr. Dwayne Carter. 

-"Please stop analyzing, criticizing, you should realize what I am and start epitomizing."

Just appreciate these two players for what they are: The most talented and complete scorers to ever grace the league, while at the same time dominating opponents on the defense. Two men with an uncontrollable desire to win, no matter what the cost.

Kobe Bryant will NEVER be Micheal Jordan. Micheal Jordan will NEVER be Kobe Bryant.

It doesn't always have to be about who is better, and I think this board is proof that it is an argument that will never develop into an agreement.


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## Nightmute

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I'd spay the floor with cans of ether and while they're either knocked unconscious or killed, I'd be the one who is left victorious.

Nightmute > All


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## Pnack

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



f22egl said:


> I think Jordan would be heavily favored in his best years from when he won his 3 championships. At least MJ would limit Kobe to some jumpers and MJ would take it to the rack and dunk all over Kobe. If Kobe got hot from 3, maybe he could win a game or two out of 10.


Sorry I just couldn't stop myself.

I don't know if you have ever played basketball, but it is incredibly hard to stop a player one on one with no help. Especially considering they are playing one on one which leaves the whole court open.

Great offense will beat great defense any day. If they were to play 1 on 1 in their primes, every game would be a scoring spree and would probably go on forever. These guys can score from anywhere on the court against double teams! How is one guy going to be able to stop them? It's just retarded to be plain and simple wouldn't prove much in terms of who is the better player considering basketball is not played 1 on 1.


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## MrJayremmie

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



> Great offense will beat great defense any day. If they were to play 1 on 1 in their primes, every game would be a scoring spree and would probably go on forever. These guys can score from anywhere on the court against double teams! How is one guy going to be able to stop them? It's just retarded to be plain and simple wouldn't prove much in terms of who is the better player considering basketball is not played 1 on 1.


Yes, but Great offense and Great defense will beat Great offense and good defense.



> For those who say that Jordan was far better than Kobe, you are just purely ignorant


obviously he wasn't far greater. Kobe is probably a 15-20 greatest of all time will Jordan is #1... that doesn't make him far better. But Jordan is on a different level than Kobe. "Far better" is a stretch. Its still a nice little gap there though.


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## Pimped Out

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



kflo said:


> jordan would not beat kobe anywhere close to 100% of the time, so any single one-on-one matchup would depend alot on who is hitting their shots. it's absurd to think kobe couldn't beat jordan in a game of one-on-one. now, if they played 100 times, i'd be pretty confident in jordan winning a majority of the games.


How dare you use logic while discussing the greatness of Jordan!


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## TakaraJinRoh

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Kobe is not even the best player right now, Paul Pierce is.



So the real question should be, Can his Airness hang with the Truth?


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## TakaraJinRoh

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



KDOS said:


> MJ still has that swagger, lol. Man I miss this guy.


Yeah. 



_Why do I shoot FT's with my eyes close? Am I trying to show off? 





A little bit._



Only MJ can say that and not be hated haha.


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## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



MrJayremmie said:


> Yes, but Great offense and Great defense will beat Great offense and good defense.


yes, but at a 100% clip???


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## carrrnuttt

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



squeemu said:


> Um...Jordan was stopped several times in the playoffs before the threepeat, and also during his "comeback" year.


Get it right; Jordan himself wasn't "stopped." His teams have lost, but Jordan still managed to have amazing performances. Remember Jordan's 63 against Bird and the Celtics? They lost that series, but he was nowhere near "stopped." Do you REALLY believe, knowing that he is the best chance his team has, that Jordan would put up only 3 shots in half, in a game 7, against a heated rival? To put in perspective, here's a Daily Dime blurb about that game:



> *Saturday's Worst
> Lakers guard Kobe Bryant:*
> 
> His teammates didn't help, especially shrinking violets Kwame Brown and Lamar Odom. But this award goes to Bryant because he's set our expectations so high. After a great first half, the Mamba disappeared into Plan 8 from Outer Space in the second half, taking only three shots and scoring one point to match the one assist he had in the game. For the game, his last in the No. 8 jersey, he put up an octagon full of Crazy 8s: eight FGs made, eight missed and eight 3s attempted, to finish with 24 -- his uniform number next season.


Has Jordan EVER been declared by ANYONE as being the "worst" in a game, win or lose, that counted, EVER?


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## MrJayremmie

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



> yes, but at a 100% clip???


No. No way Jordan would win 100% of the time vs. Kobe... it makes me lol that we are talkin' about a 1-on-1 game though, because that is just pure speculation of how good they really are on 1-on-1 games...


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## bball2223

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Pnack said:


> For those who say that Jordan was far better than Kobe, you are just purely ignorant. There's nothing else I can really say about that other than you are utterly blind. Don't be fooled by the media, half the people on this board have probably never seen more than half a dozen Jordan games. He was great yes, but still human.
> 
> Jordan didn't win six championships. The Chicago Bulls won six championships, granted that basketball is a team game. It takes a lot more than an individual player to win titles. And five great players playing against a great team will win anyday, the Detroit Pistons proved that when they beat the star-studded roster of the Lakers in '04. Of course Micheal was the centerpiece of the Bulls dynasty but he was surrounded by a lot of great talent.



:laugh: Jordan never lost a finals series, ever. He was the best player on his team every single time they won the title. Kobe played robin to Shaq's batman during his title runs. Even statistically it isn't even close.


Career averages:


Michael Jordan:

*PPG: 30.1*
*RPG: 6.2*
*APG: 5.3*
*FG %: 49.7%*
3 pt %: 32.7%


Kobe Bryant:

PPG: 25
RPG: 5.3
APG: 4.6
FG %: 45.3%
*3 pt %: 34%*

I like Kobe and he is a great player. One day he could approach a level similar to MJ but right now it isn't even close. The better debate is who is the best Laker of all-time. Jerry West, Magic, and Kareem all have claims for that as does Kobe.


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## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Thanks Mike. 

Say it like it is.

Any basketball fan should already know this. There would be no contest, really.


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## DaRizzle

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Oh cmon Chris, you can do better than that!


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## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



EGarrett said:


> *I don't think it's his lack of scoring ability as much as it is his lack of basketball IQ biting him in the butt.* His (smart) opponents probably know that he doesn't know how to balance using his teammates with scoring, so they can attack him aggressively and know that he'll either respond by shooting a whole bunch, maybe scoring a lot, and take his teammates out of the game, or he'll try to defer to his teammates and become passive and fall out of the offense.


That's 100% correct. Kobe did not learn how to play basketball on his own. What I mean is, he didn't learn how to play from his own mistakes, forging himself into his own player. What Kobe did was watch Michael Jordan playing while growing up and then just copied him, *like every kid, including me* did. We all ran out to the basketball court after MJ's games to play ball with our friends and copy Jordan's moves.

Kobe is a very good copy-cat. By using his God-given athleticism to copy Michael Jordan's offensive moves, he instantly became a great scorer. He is athletic and physically talented to mimic MJ's athletic prowess and moves. The problem is Kobe didn't learn anything. He's just a talented scorer copy-cat. He didn't learn this himself. 

That's why you can shut Kobe down in the playoffs, but you couldn't shut Jordan down. Jordan seen it all before, he adapted and killed you by averaging 11 assists if you wouldn't let him score. He learned from his first 7 years in the league. The man was just an anomaly. Even before he made it to the NBA FINALS, the champions of the league Bird and Magic already publicly say that Jordan is a God amongst Men. 

Any intelligent fan will see through Kobe pretty quickly.

Jordan's basketball IQ is off the charts, he knows all the tricks.


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## EGarrett

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Good post Chris.

This is really clear when you look at Kobe's early games. He was basically a Jordan Jukebox set on random play. He would shoot a fadeaway against a bigger defender way out from the basket...drive right into traffic without even thinking about passing. He knew all the "What's" and "How's," but not the "Why's" or "When's" of Jordan's moves. Today it's the same thing but to a lesser degree.


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## MrJayremmie

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



> Jordan never lost a finals series, ever. He was the best player on his team every single time they won the title. Kobe played robin to Shaq's batman during his title runs. Even statistically it isn't even close.
> 
> 
> Career averages:
> 
> 
> Michael Jordan:
> 
> PPG: 30.1
> RPG: 6.2
> APG: 5.3
> FG %: 49.7%
> 3 pt %: 32.7%
> 
> 
> Kobe Bryant:
> 
> PPG: 25
> RPG: 5.3
> APG: 4.6
> FG %: 45.3%
> 3 pt %: 34%
> 
> I like Kobe and he is a great player. One day he could approach a level similar to MJ but right now it isn't even close. The better debate is who is the best Laker of all-time. Jerry West, Magic, and Kareem all have claims for that as does Kobe.


yea, i was going to go on KB24overrated.com and post all those stats on there (but it would take way too long)... its NOT even close, honestly. But Kobe still has time left in his career, so i suppose its possible to get to Mike's level (though unlikely).

But w/e, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.


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## Pnack

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

The slight difference is stats can be attributed to the fact that team defense has improved, when you consider the era they played. For example Wilt would never average 50pts if he played now.


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## bball2223

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Pnack said:


> The slight difference is stats can be attributed to the fact that team defense has improved, when you consider the era they played. For example Wilt would never average 50pts if he played now.


Your saying defense is better today then when Jordan played?


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Jordan would lose


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## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

didn't Michael Finley beat Jordan when he was in High School? Michael friggin Finley, but he think he can play with Kobe. Hahaha


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## Pnack

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> That's 100% correct. Kobe did not learn how to play basketball on his own. What I mean is, he didn't learn how to play from his own mistakes, forging himself into his own player. What Kobe did was watch Michael Jordan playing while growing up and then just copied him, *like every kid, including me* did. We all ran out to the basketball court after MJ's games to play ball with our friends and copy Jordan's moves.
> 
> Kobe is a very good copy-cat. By using his God-given athleticism to copy Michael Jordan's offensive moves, he instantly became a great scorer. He is athletic and physically talented to mimic MJ's athletic prowess and moves. The problem is Kobe didn't learn anything. He's just a talented scorer copy-cat. He didn't learn this himself.
> 
> That's why you can shut Kobe down in the playoffs, but you couldn't shut Jordan down. Jordan seen it all before, he adapted and killed you by averaging 11 assists if you wouldn't let him score. He learned from his first 7 years in the league. The man was just an anomaly. Even before he made it to the NBA FINALS, the champions of the league Bird and Magic already publicly say that Jordan is a God amongst Men.
> 
> Any intelligent fan will see through Kobe pretty quickly.
> 
> Jordan's basketball IQ is off the charts, he knows all the tricks.


I do have to agree with that, and at this point it seems as though Kobe won't change his ways.


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

the difference in points per game can be explained rather easily....

jordan came into the league and averaged 38 minutes per game to start his career, and ended his career averaging 37mpg.....kobe played 71 games and averaged 15 minutes per game at 7.6ppg his first season, and played 79 games averaging 26 minutes per game at 15.4ppg his second season....

funny how no one mentioned that little fact...

if you subtract kobe's first two seasons, the averages come out to:

kobe: 27.7ppg
jordan: 30.1ppg


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> didn't Michael Finley beat Jordan when he was in High School? Michael friggin Finley, but he think he can play with Kobe. Hahaha


AFAIK, Jordan won, but told Finley "I'll be seeing you again someday."

He's also played Marion Jones and Michael Jackson one-on-one...for what it's worth.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



bootstrenf said:


> the difference in points per game can be explained rather easily....
> 
> jordan came into the league and averaged 38 minutes per game to start his career, and ended his career averaging 37mpg.....kobe played 71 games and averaged 15 minutes per game at 7.6ppg his first season, and played 79 games averaging 26 minutes per game at 15.4ppg his second season....
> 
> funny how no one mentioned that little fact...
> 
> if you subtract kobe's first two seasons, the averages come out to:
> 
> kobe: 27.7ppg
> jordan: 30.1ppg


if you want to subtract kobe's first two seasons, then you can go ahead and subtract Jordan's Washington Wizard days, when he was playing for the hell of it at 40+ years old..

Jordan's REAL regular season scoring average (Chicago Bulls days) is around 35ppg


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> if you want to subtract kobe's first two seasons, then you can go ahead and subtract Jordan's Washington Wizard days, when he was playing for the hell of it at 40+ years old..
> 
> Jordan's REAL regular season scoring average (Chicago Bulls days) is around 35ppg


i wasn't subtracting kobe's seasons because of age.....look at the minutes....a player is not going to produce when they are getting 15, 26 minutes per game...


why don't we only count kobe's stats after he turns 21??? that's when jordan started, afterall....


i know you're a jordan nutrider and everything, but come on, if can't see the logic in what i did, there's no reason for us to even acknowledge each others' posts anymore....


by the way, i'm a clippers fan and i hate kobe bryant and anything laker-related....jordan is my favorite player of all time....we even share the same birthday....


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

That was about the same amount of minutes Jordan was getting as a Wizard at age 43ish


----------



## bball2223

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> didn't Michael Finley beat Jordan when he was in High School? Michael friggin Finley, but he think he can play with Kobe. Hahaha


wow honestly what does this have to do with anything?


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> if you want to subtract kobe's first two seasons, then you can go ahead and subtract Jordan's Washington Wizard days, when he was playing for the hell of it at 40+ years old..
> 
> Jordan's REAL regular season scoring average (Chicago Bulls days) is around 35ppg


is 31.5ppg


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> That was about the same amount of minutes Jordan was getting as a Wizard at age 43ish


and dude was still throwing up 22 shots a game. talk about a ballhogging gunner


----------



## bball2223

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> and dude was still throwing up 22 shots a game. talk about a ballhogging gunner


:laugh:


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

No doubt about it MJ prime > Kobe prime. Have people already forgotten that Paul Pierce out playing Kobe in the finals. Uh yea...

Also MJ is the best perimeter player of all time on offense and defense. No other perimeter player has come close to being as great of a two way player as MJ.


----------



## duncan2k5

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

MJ> kobe RIGHT NOW!!! not even close. lebron would be a toughter assignment for mj


----------



## DaRizzle

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I was hoping you had dropped off the face of the Earth Duncan....damn


----------



## Accelerate

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Wow, those fade-aways Jordan pulled off were Kobe-esque!


----------



## DaRizzle

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

^lol...i think im gonna like you


----------



## f22egl

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



bootstrenf said:


> i wasn't subtracting kobe's seasons because of age.....look at the minutes....a player is not going to produce when they are getting 15, 26 minutes per game...
> 
> 
> why don't we only count kobe's stats after he turns 21??? that's when jordan started, afterall....
> 
> 
> i know you're a jordan nutrider and everything, but come on, if can't see the logic in what i did, there's no reason for us to even acknowledge each others' posts anymore....
> 
> 
> by the way, i'm a clippers fan and i hate kobe bryant and anything laker-related....jordan is my favorite player of all time....we even share the same birthday....


Kobe made the all star team in his 2nd season so people should factor it in.


----------



## Wade County

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Honestly, is this really a question?

No disrespect to Kobe, who is a great player - but MJ was unbelievable. Kobe is the closest thing to Mike possible, but he isnt as good as Jordan and never will be.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I don't understand why this discussion pops up once every 3 weeks, it gets old. Just as much as gimmick posters.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



kflo said:


> jordan would not beat kobe anywhere close to 100% of the time, so any single one-on-one matchup would depend alot on who is hitting their shots. it's absurd to think kobe couldn't beat jordan in a game of one-on-one. now, if they played 100 times, i'd be pretty confident in jordan winning a majority of the games.


BTW I agree with this.


----------



## tone wone

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I think Kobe is (or will be) the 2nd greatest SG of all time and will have a real shot at cracking the top 10 all-time list.

But understand, there's a HUGE GAP between Jordan's level(top 3 all-time) and Kobe's(possible top 10-15). Hell, there's a noticable difference between the top 3 and the rest of the top 10.

Now some may feel saying there's a huge gap between the two is a slight to Kobe but it isn't at all. Fact is, being compared to Jordan _"historically"_(not cause you win a dunk contest or have a couple of great seasons but because u are year in and year out the best perimeter player in the league); is probably the greatest compliment a wing player could recieve.

In about 2 years I'll be writing the same thing about Lebron. _"He's top 10 but.."_


----------



## SlamJam

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

career per 36 minutes - 

mj - 28.3 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 4.9 apg, 50% FG
kobe - 24.7 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 4.6 apg, 45% FG


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

So, Jordan can lose to a teenaged Michael Finley, but somehow it's a given he'd defecate on Kobe? Jordan fans are remedial.


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> That was about the same amount of minutes Jordan was getting as a Wizard at age 43ish



you should really look up the stats before you say things like this....basketball-reference is a really good source of stats....

jordan was 39 when he retired permanently from basketball...so he was not even in the league at 43....for a big jordan fan, you don't seem to know much about him....

jordan was on the wizards for two years....the first year, he averaged 34.9 minutes per game....the second year, he averaged 37 minutes per game....


anything else i can look up for you???


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> That was about the same amount of minutes Jordan was getting as a Wizard at age 43ish


you should really look up the stats before you say things like this....basketball-reference is a really good source of stats....

jordan was 39 when he retired permanently from basketball...so he was not even in the league at 43....for a big jordan fan, you don't seem to know much about him....

jordan was on the wizards for two years....the first year, he averaged 34.9 minutes per game....the second year, he averaged 37 minutes per game....


anything else i can look up for you???




King George said:


> and dude was still throwing up 22 shots a game. talk about a ballhogging gunner


lol...would you rather have kwame brown getting those shots???


----------



## MrJayremmie

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I think it would be awesome to watch LeBron and a prime Michael go 1-on-1 (even though LeBron isn't even at his peak yet).


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



MrJayremmie said:


> I think it would be awesome to watch LeBron and a prime Michael go 1-on-1 (even though LeBron isn't even at his peak yet).


hand checking, or no hand checking???


and i would love to see wilt vs. shaq...

russell vs. olojuwan would also be good...3 to 3 tie...


----------



## RX

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



bootstrenf said:


> hand checking, or no hand checking???
> 
> 
> and i would love to see wilt vs. shaq...
> 
> russell vs. olojuwan would also be good...3 to 3 tie...


this is the biggest diff..Jordan played in an era where you could get MUGGED by defenders...Kobe plays in an era where no one can touch you or its a trip to the free throw line.


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



RX said:


> this is the biggest diff..Jordan played in an era where you could get MUGGED by defenders...Kobe plays in an era where no one can touch you or its a trip to the free throw line.


well, this is also the reason jordan is seen as one of the best perimeter defenders of all time....he himself was allowed to foul the crap out of players without getting called for a foul...and he was jordan, so he got even less fouls called against him.....


whereas kobe is not allowed this luxury....

so it goes both ways...


----------



## RX

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



bootstrenf said:


> well, this is also the reason jordan is seen as one of the best perimeter defenders of all time....he himself was allowed to foul the crap out of players without getting called for a foul...and he was jordan, so he got even less fouls called against him.....
> 
> 
> whereas kobe is not allowed this luxury....
> 
> so it goes both ways...


that's a good point, but one thing is for certain, its proven that Jordan could pull off his offense despite the roughness...can't say Kobe would have the same level of success in this environment.


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



RX said:


> that's a good point, but one thing is for certain, its proven that Jordan could pull off his offense despite the roughness...can't say Kobe would have the same level of success in this environment.


that's the thing though, we will never know, because kobe never had to deal with that situation....but i think a player like kobe would have adjusted to his enviroment....

but even after adjustment, it's debatable whether or not kobe could achieve the same success in that era....it's all speculation, but i think jordan >>>>> kobe in any era.....


----------



## Dream Hakeem

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



RX said:


> this is the biggest diff..Jordan played in an era where you could get MUGGED by defenders...Kobe plays in an era where no one can touch you or its a trip to the free throw line.


MJ played in an era of 1 v 1 defense. Give Kobe that type of D, and he'd be dropping 40+ game in and game out.


----------



## RX

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Dream Hakeem said:


> MJ played in an era of 1 v 1 defense. Give Kobe that type of D, and he'd be dropping 40+ game in and game out.


can't say that, its just speculation...could easily say he'd have trouble finishing or getting his shot off with dudes putting their hands all over him and putting him on his ***

in any case...i'm in the MJ > Kobe camp...in any era...simply because of the drive/heart/swagger/instinct...whatever. Skill wise I think it's a wash, there are alot of super skilled players. But MJ was a killer, a prime MJ would not let himself lose.


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Dream Hakeem said:


> MJ played in an era of 1 v 1 defense. Give Kobe that type of D, and he'd be dropping 40+ game in and game out.




great point...i forgot about zone defense....


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

dont forget Jordan also played in an era that did not have the 3 second rule that we have now.

so all the great bigs were parked in the lane.


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> dont forget Jordan also played in an era that did not have the 3 second rule that we have now.
> 
> so all the great bigs were parked in the lane.


to be "parked" in the lane, a player would have to be guarding a space and not a specific player.....which means they would've had to been playing a zone defense.....weren't zone defenses illegal in jordan's days???


not quite sure, so can someone please clear that one up for me???


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

go read up on it. the NBA led by David Stern has intentionally tweaked the rules to create high scorers. nba ratings were in the toilet.

its common now for most anyone to score 20 points.

back then.......if you could average 20pts, you were a superstar.


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> go read up on it. the NBA led by David Stern has intentionally tweaked the rules to create high scorers. nba ratings were in the toilet.
> 
> its common now for most anyone to score 20 points.
> 
> back then.......if you could average 20pts, you were a superstar.


this didn't really answer my question....

to be parked in the lane, one had to be playing a zone, and zone defenses were illegal in jordan's days...


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

it is worth noting that the wizards jordan was among the least efficient volume scorers in league history. one of his seasons was i believe in the bottom 2 all-time (among 20 ppg scorers). somewhat contradictory to the notion that he was more cerebral than everyone else. he was, in his prime ('98 and before), incredibly skilled. not that he wasn't a smart player, but lets not overstate.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Dream Hakeem said:


> MJ played in an era of 1 v 1 defense. Give Kobe that type of D, and he'd be dropping 40+ game in and game out.


Yeah man, because Kobe was really a world-beater under man-to-man rules from '97-'04. :lol: And that was with Shaq drawing multiple defenders.

Gotta love how people act like we've never seen Kobe play pre-zone.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

If they played one-on-one 100 times in their primes (age 26-29), I'd say Jordan wins 60-70 of them. Probably 65 if I had to pick a number. Kobe can of course win some games; he's fantastically talented and an incredible 1-on-1 player in particular.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



bootstrenf said:


> if you subtract kobe's first two seasons, the averages come out to:
> 
> kobe: 27.7ppg
> jordan: 30.1ppg


Compare them through the same age and it's 32.5 ppg vs. 27.7 ppg. And Kobe's scoring is already starting to dip.


----------



## Dream Hakeem

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Yeah man, because Kobe was really a world-beater under man-to-man rules from '97-'04. :lol: And that was with Shaq drawing multiple defenders.
> 
> Gotta love how people act like we've never seen Kobe play pre-zone.


First of all, Zone defense was banned before the 01-02 Season. Bryant was a back-up, and not even an All Star his first 3 years. Kobe right now is signifacantly better than he was back then, and if you put Kobe in his prime against man to man defense. There is no doubt that Kobe would be able to get his shot off with ease.


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Compare them through the same age and it's 32.5 ppg vs. 27.7 ppg. And Kobe's scoring is already starting to dip.


as i've stated before, it is not an age issue....it's a minutes per game issue...

to come up with jordan's numbers, did you just use his stats from 21years - 29years??? just curious is all...


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Dream Hakeem said:


> First of all, Zone defense was banned before the 01-02 Season. Bryant was a back-up, and not even an All Star his first 3 years. Kobe right now is signifacantly better than he was back then, and if you put Kobe in his prime against man to man defense. There is no doubt that Kobe would be able to get his shot off with ease.


I guess only posters age 30 or + should be allowed to post regarding comparing Michael Jordan with modern-day superstars...

I've said this a million times already in this Forum, but noone seems to give a damn: in Michael Jordan's prime, he was guarded one on one! ONE on ONE!

Please picture guys like Kobe Bryant, Tracie McGreedy, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter, etc., (heck, ANY superstar perimeter player in the last 5 years) facing one man and ONE MAN ALONE outside the paint. Please do.


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



PauloCatarino said:


> I guess only posters age 30 or + should be allowed to post regarding comparing Michael Jordan with modern-day superstars...
> 
> I've said this a million times already in this Forum, but noone seems to give a damn: in Michael Jordan's prime, he was guarded one on one! ONE on ONE!
> 
> Please picture guys like Kobe Bryant, Tracie McGreedy, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter, etc., (heck, ANY superstar perimeter player in the last 5 years) facing one man and ONE MAN ALONE outside the paint. Please do.


You're forgetting that they banned handchecking in 2005 which made guard scoring go through the roof.


----------



## Cap

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Jordan's superior impact over Bryant stems almost entirely from an obvious and large prime athletic/quicks advantage. Had they ever been equals as athletes I'd say Kobe would no question get pretty close to splitting a one-on-one contest, 50-50 out of 100. As a team player Jordan would still be superior, simply because he has always had the superior IQ (due to NC, his upbringing, or both). But the athletic advantage is stark and obvious. 

That said, in reality, 60-40 in favor of Jordan would be a worst case scenario IMO. Closer to 70-30 Jordan. Kobe's recent Finals stinker is just more proof of that. And while MJ had his own Finals stinker against a great defensive team (96 Sonics), Kobe's was worse (albeit against a better defensive team perhaps).


----------



## Cap

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



EGarrett said:


> You're forgetting that they banned handchecking in 2005 which made guard scoring go through the roof.


Please cite and link where handchecking was banned in the NBA rulebook.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> go read up on it. the NBA led by David Stern has intentionally tweaked the rules to create high scorers. nba ratings were in the toilet.
> 
> its common now for most anyone to score 20 points.
> 
> back then.......if you could average 20pts, you were a superstar.


this is pure nonsense. Who regarded Michael Adams as a Superstar? Kelly Tripucka and the like?


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Dream Hakeem said:


> First of all, Zone defense was banned before the 01-02 Season. Bryant was a back-up, and not even an All Star his first 3 years. Kobe right now is signifacantly better than he was back then, and if you put Kobe in his prime against man to man defense. There is no doubt that Kobe would be able to get his shot off with ease.


I'm pretty sure that zone started being allowed during 2004, which is why TMac was on record crying about it during the 2003 off-season. Regardless, zone wasn't even used much at all until the 2005 season. LOL @ trying to act like it was in effect from 2002.

And I see you've trotted out the "the Kobe of today is WORLDS better than the Kobe of '04/'05" argument. :lol: Kobe is the only player in history who somehow became worlds more effective in just 6-15 months' time from the end of the 2004 or 2005 season (take your pick) to the start of the 2006 season.

Again, we've seen Kobe play under man to man rules for the better part of 8 seasons, and that was WITH a top 7 player all-time drawing multiple defenders and preventing double teams on Kobe. Kobe was never some sort of world-beater under man-to-man rules. He was great (and still is great), but he was no Jordan. Kobe fans have to use this argument as a last resort because otherwise they would have to explain how a player who played like Kobe did during the 2004 and 2005 seasons could turn around and have a season like 2006 "all of a sudden." They certainly don't want to admit that the rule changes which took place that year had any effect on his production, just as it did for all perimeter stars.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



bootstrenf said:


> to come up with jordan's numbers, did you just use his stats from 21years - 29years??? just curious is all...


Yes. Jordan came in the league at 21, and I used through 1993, since he turned 30 during that season like Kobe is about to turn 30 in a couple of weeks.



PauloCatarino said:


> I've said this a million times already in this Forum, but noone seems to give a damn: in Michael Jordan's prime, he was guarded one on one! ONE on ONE!


This couldn't be further from the truth, and it's sad that anyone could sit there and say this with a straight face. Jordan was the most double-teamed and trapped perimeter player in history. The only player in the last 25 years who has seen more double/triple teams than him was prime Shaq. Period.

LMAO @ anyone suggesting that the most dangerous scoring weapon in the league for 12 years was never doubled. I guess teams were just stupid. What a farce. :lol:



> Please picture guys like Kobe Bryant, Tracie McGreedy, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter, etc., (heck, ANY superstar perimeter player in the last 5 years) facing one man and ONE MAN ALONE outside the paint. Please do.


We saw Kobe under just such a situation for the better part of 8 years. He wasn't Jordan then, and he isn't Jordan now. Get over it.

And again, he didn't see a fraction of the defensive pressure Jordan saw under those same rules since he had Shaq.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

In many years defenses were geared to stop Kobe, not Shaq. it may have been Shaq's team but Kobe was the one they feared. Let's not forget that Shaq wasn't winning any championships until Kobe came into his own. You can post your silly stats all you want but it's true. Shaq came to a 50 win playoff team and could not make the finals. They got him Phil jackson, Glen Rice, Horace Grant and Kobe's emergence helped Shaq over the hump. I really wish people would stop pretending like Shaq took L.A. from worse to first all by himself. I also remember alot of people saying Kobe would suck after Shaq left, yeah the overall team sucked but Kobe played better than ever. Michael jordan scored a lot because he shot a lot. 9 times he led the league in totals shots attempted he was a ridiculous gunner and miss me with his fgp crap. LJB had a higher FGP and still didn't shoot that much he also grabbed more rebounds and dished out more assists, so why LJB ain'tthe greatest ever? Don't yall use LBJ out rebounding out assissting to say he's better than KBB?


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> In many years defenses were geared to stop Kobe, not Shaq.


Complete revisionist history that I won't dignify with a response. Anyone can go back and watch any Laker game from 2000-2004 and see that Kobe basically never saw double teams while Shaq saw tons.



> Michael jordan scored a lot because he shot a lot.


And managed to be extremely efficient while doing so, which not many players can say. It's hard to find 22-25 good shots for yourself each game to to the point where you're going to hit 50+% of them, especially when you're the focus of every defense you face. Hell, Kobe couldn't even do so while he had Shaq.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Complete revisionist history that I won't dignify with a response. Anyone can go back and watch any Laker game from 2000-2004 and see that Kobe basically never saw double teams while Shaq saw tons.
> 
> 
> 
> And managed to be extremely efficient while doing so, which not many players can say. It's hard to find 22-25 good shots for yourself each game to to the point where you're going to hit 50+% of them, especially when you're the focus of every defense you face. Hell, Kobe couldn't even do so while he had Shaq.


Makes of miss don't determine good shots. Jordan shot a many a bad shot in his career. Just because it falls doesn't make it a good shot, just as just cuz u miss don't make it a bad shot. Kobe shoots way more 3's than Gunner Jordan and still gets a comparable ppg on fewer shots in general. And no it's not revisionist history teams did gear up to stop Kobe not Shaq. Why would they need to stop Shaq for? he put up numbers and lost for years.


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



kflo said:


> people did beat him on teams.


And he usually beat them more on teams.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> Makes of miss don't determine good shots. Jordan shot a many a bad shot in his career. Just because it falls doesn't make it a good shot, just as just cuz u miss don't make it a bad shot. Kobe shoots way more 3's than Gunner Jordan and still gets a comparable ppg on fewer shots in general. And no it's not revisionist history teams did gear up to stop Kobe not Shaq. Why would they need to stop Shaq for? he put up numbers and lost for years.


There's so much wrong with this that I don't even know where to begin.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

King Georges opinion of Michael Jordan are horrible and way off base. Tons of holes in all his statements, and tons of speculation only. King George seems set on some how some way stirring the pot, yet I see some of the most ardent Kobe supporters who have shown high intellect regarding a vast amount of subjects simply say it's true, and obvious that Jordan is superior to Kobe. He is, and King George I read your posts hoping I could get something of substance and truth out of them that would make a strong case for Kobe and be able to influence or maybe make me see your point of view more clearly, and strongly in favoring Kobe Bryant over Michael Jordan, but as I already stated your ideas, and toxic spew your writing about MJ only comes across as a hater much like an openly admitted MJ hater on these boards like Paulo, so I think we all can now include King George in the MJ hater hat on bbb.net.

Just my two coppers.

Carry on.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

King George

your posts are so crazy, I am starting to just laugh at you and use you for comedy  not even considering taking you seriously lol

you are one funny guy  thanks


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> King George
> 
> your posts are so crazy, I am starting to just laugh at you and use you for comedy  not even considering taking you seriously lol
> 
> you are one funny guy  thanks


You are probably the worst person to criticize others of how crazy they sound.


----------



## DaRizzle

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Undeafeated82 is my hero...he makes me know Im not the only other sane person in the world


----------



## Exile

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I saw this on another forum, Jordan is an amazing player.


----------



## John

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Exile said:


> I saw this on another forum, Jordan is an amazing player.


Greatest post pad of all time.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I do not know Michael jordan, therefore I can not hate Michael Jordan. If I did know Michael Jordan he still wouldn't be worth hating. I do however get sick of teh endless penis jockeying of the guy. As well as the revisionistn history.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Jordan23Forever said:


> There's so much wrong with this that I don't even know where to begin.


Jordan23Forever is my hero...he makes me know Im not the only other sane person in the world


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



EHL said:


> Please cite and link where handchecking was banned in the NBA rulebook.


"2004-05
• New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game."


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

dont forget 2001-2002 season, where the defensive 3 second rule was introduced.

long gone are the days of big men clogging the paint waiting for someone to drive to the rim.....


it's no wonder why the nab players of today dunk with ease.


----------



## Cap

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



EGarrett said:


> "2004-05
> • New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game."


Thank you for proving my point, handchecking was never "banned". Additionally, note that traditional handchecking rules were overly burdensome on perimeter players due to the ever increasing strength of NBA defenders as the early 00's rolled around. This is the entire reason the game slowed down and FG%'s dipped until recently. A logical alteration to the rules had to take effect and they did in 04-05. Quite obviously defenses today are superior to what they were in the 80's and 90's, especially on the perimeter where shrimps like Moncrief, Dumars, Payton, or John Starks aren't the norm against elite perimeter scorers like they used to be in the 80's and 90's.


----------



## Affirmative Action

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Handchecking was not completely taken out of the game. The league made some revisions, but that rule was still in play however a bit different.


----------



## Affirmative Action

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> dont forget 2001-2002 season, where the defensive 3 second rule was introduced.
> 
> long gone are the days of big men clogging the paint waiting for someone to drive to the rim.....
> 
> 
> it's no wonder why the nab players of today dunk with ease.


This notion is so wrong but Im not surprised since its coming from a Jordan homer.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



EHL said:


> especially on the perimeter where shrimps like Moncrief, Dumars, Payton, or John Starks aren't the norm against elite perimeter scorers like they used to be in the 80's and 90's.


LOL @ naming 3 of the best perimeter defenders in history in a derogatory manner. :lol: And double lol @ acting like Jordan was facing 6'4" guys all the time. When Kobe is guarded by Kidd/Wade/Hinrich/Mobley it's no issue though, of course. The Knicks had Starks, but also Wilkins (6'6") and before that Newman (6'7"). The Pistons had Dumars, but also used Rodman (6'8") on Jordan. The Bucks used to switch between Alvin Robertson (OMG 6'4"!) and Paul Pressey (6'6") on MJ. Bigger players were never the ones that gave Jordan problems anyway, because he could get by them at will. Bigger players give Kobe problems because he can't explode past them as well as Jordan did; hence they can challenge his shots better. That's why taller guys like Tayshaun Prince got their defensive reps against Kobe, and then get exposed against more explosive players like Lebron and Wade.

Fact is, any of those "short" guys you mentioned would give Kobe fits, especially under the old rules. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



23AJ said:


> King Georges opinion of Michael Jordan are horrible and way off base. Tons of holes in all his statements, and tons of speculation only. King George seems set on some how some way stirring the pot, yet I see some of the most ardent Kobe supporters who have shown high intellect regarding a vast amount of subjects simply say it's true, and obvious that Jordan is superior to Kobe. He is, and King George I read your posts hoping I could get something of substance and truth out of them that would make a strong case for Kobe and be able to influence or maybe make me see your point of view more clearly, and strongly in favoring Kobe Bryant over Michael Jordan, but as I already stated your ideas, and toxic spew your writing about MJ only comes across as a hater much *like an openly admitted MJ hater on these boards like Paulo*, so I think we all can now include King George in the MJ hater hat on bbb.net.
> 
> Just my two coppers.
> 
> Carry on.


Well, considering the quality of some of these new-born Michael Jordan fans (if they aren't really all the same person, i mean), i would say my place on the BBF's "Haters' Club" is in jeopardy... Being severily critical of a player (and more than often, of another poster's opinion on that player), or even free-willingly using the "loser" label while refering to players is NOT the same as what we are forced to read the last couple of months...

I though the "Kobe sucks because he is just a Jordan-wanna-be" kind of posts were forever gone...


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I don't really feel like arguing with Laker fans about Kobe right now. I don't think it's Kobe's fault that Laker fans are so egotistical and/or misguided that they really believe he is the best Laker ever, and to go to an extreme, the GOAT.

After watching TEAM USA lately, I don't want to criticize him right now. So you Laker fans are off the hook for now with me. Kobe representing our country is commendable, and I will respect him for that, even if I don't like him as a person, I respect him for doing this so.....

GO TEAM USA!


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

i bet you'll be blaming Kobe when Team USA don't win Gold


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Why?

Just because you think I don't like Kobe for no reason whatsoever? You obviously are wrong. I have valid reasons, not blind hate, like you MJ haters do. You hate MJ only because you love Kobe so much. That's ridiculous. MJ is the GOAT and if you want to tear the man down, you are going to have every NBA expert from here to China tell you the same : MJ is the GOAT by far.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> Why?
> 
> Just because you think I don't like Kobe for no reason whatsoever? You obviously are wrong. I have valid reasons, not blind hate, like you MJ haters do. You hate MJ only because you love Kobe so much. That's ridiculous. MJ is the GOAT and if you want to tear the man down, you are going to have every NBA expert from here to China tell you the same : MJ is the GOAT by far.


I don't hate Jordan. He's just not the be all end all that you nuthuggers like to believe. It's funny to me how Magic and Bird were the best players in the league, then they die and Jordan not only becomes the best player in the league but the best player ever, pure nonsense.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> Why?
> 
> Just because you think I don't like Kobe for no reason whatsoever? You obviously are wrong. I have valid reasons, not blind hate, like you MJ haters do. You hate MJ only because you love Kobe so much. That's ridiculous. MJ is the GOAT and if you want to tear the man down, you are going to have every NBA expert from here to China tell you the same : MJ is the GOAT by far.


This is what you can't seem to grasp, young grasshopper: some Laker fans don't criticize Jordan to "prop up" Kobe Bryant.
I, personally, am a huge critic of Kobe Bryant. It almost made me vomit to see on a recent thread in the Lakers' forum how peeps were appointing him as one of the greatest Laker players ever.

That being said, there are some educated and knowledgeable (sp?) posters in this Forum that will be quick to say that, even Jodan being the GOAT can be defended, other players can arguably be considered... That's what diferentiates nut-riders to guys who have WATCHED and STUDIED the game.

Some say it's Jordan. Others will pick Wilt (like myself). Others, Kareem. Others, Bill Russell. Magic. Others (rare cases) will talk about Oscar; and Bird; and Shaq.

Don't be so obtuse, young buck. It's not healthy.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



PauloCatarino said:


> This is what you can't seem to grasp, young grasshopper: some Laker fans don't criticize Jordan to "prop up" Kobe Bryant.
> I, personally, am a huge critic of Kobe Bryant. It almost made me vomit to see on a recent thread in the Lakers' forum how peeps were appointing him as one of the greatest Laker players ever.
> 
> That being said, there are some educated and knowledgeable (sp?) posters in this Forum that will be quick to say that, even Jodan being the GOAT can be defended, other players can arguably be considered... That's what diferentiates nut-riders to guys who have WATCHED and STUDIED the game.
> 
> Some say it's Jordan. Others will pick Wilt (like myself). Others, Kareem. Others, Bill Russell. Magic. Others (rare cases) will talk about Oscar; and Bird; and Shaq.
> 
> Don't be so obtuse, young buck. It's not healthy.


Bingo, I got Magic, I know who you got. To say Jordan is the GOAT by far is a ridiculous statement to make.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



PauloCatarino said:


> Well, considering the quality of some of these new-born Michael Jordan fans (if they aren't really all the same person, i mean), i would say my place on the BBF's "Haters' Club" is in jeopardy... Being severily critical of a player (and more than often, of another poster's opinion on that player), or even free-willingly using the "loser" label while refering to players is NOT the same as what we are forced to read the last couple of months...
> 
> I though the "Kobe sucks because he is just a Jordan-wanna-be" kind of posts were forever gone...


The bottom line is when you have to use derogatory terms about a player (Which you do all the time in regards to MJ) your taking it to a hateful step, rather than just explaining your reasons why you think player x is better than MJ. I will be the fist to admit I've done the same thing's in the past. However i've seen the light, and now have no hate towards any basketball players, but instead, actual reasons some personal some factual why I believe some are better than others, but still respect player x for their accomplishments and basketball abilities. Rate players on the merit of their basketball skills and careers.


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



EHL said:


> Thank you for proving my point, handchecking was never "banned".


In the context I referred to it...it being removed as a tool for perimeter defenders and causing guard scoring to skyrocket...the statement was accurate. You're trying to nitpick because this quibble is not relevant to the point. There's a reason Kobe and Iverson and other guys saw their averages jump 4 to even 7 points per game that year.



> Additionally, note that traditional handchecking rules were overly burdensome on perimeter players due to the ever increasing strength of NBA defenders as the early 00's rolled around.


I don't care how burdensome it was or whether or not it was better off gone. It was there and it effected how easily guards could score. You're once again bringing up something that is irrelevant. You point out the zone being implemented, I'm responding by telling you that you that handchecking was also removed so it wasn't like guards were suddenly shut down all around the league.



> This is the entire reason the game slowed down and FG%'s dipped until recently. A logical alteration to the rules had to take effect and they did in 04-05.


This is completely irrelevant. If I tell you Player X's shotblocking numbers were inflated at some point because the goaltending rules were different, it's irrelevant to respond that they should've changed the rules. The numbers were still inflated.



> Quite obviously defenses today are superior to what they were in the 80's and 90's, especially on the perimeter where shrimps like Moncrief, Dumars, Payton, or John Starks aren't the norm against elite perimeter scorers like they used to be in the 80's and 90's.


Actually, they used to be bigger.

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/04/nba-players-not-getting-taller.html

_Basketball players used to get taller all the time, but not anymore. The average height of an NBA player at the beginning of the 2005-2006 season was 6'-7.18", *down from 6'-7.36" 20 years before.* For each of the last 20 years, players have averaged more than 6'-7" and less than 6'-8"._


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



EGarrett said:


> In the context I referred to it...it being removed as a tool for perimeter defenders and causing guard scoring to skyrocket...the statement was accurate. You're trying to nitpick because this quibble is not relevant to the point. There's a reason Kobe and Iverson and other guys saw their averages jump 4 to even 7 points per game that year.
> 
> I don't care how burdensome it was or whether or not it was better off gone. It was there and it effected how easily guards could score. You're once again bringing up something that is irrelevant. You point out the zone being implemented, I'm responding by telling you that you that handchecking was also removed so it wasn't like guards were suddenly shut down all around the league.
> 
> This is completely irrelevant. If I tell you Player X's shotblocking numbers were inflated at some point because the goaltending rules were different, it's irrelevant to respond that they should've changed the rules. The numbers were still inflated.
> 
> Actually, they used to be bigger.
> 
> http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/04/nba-players-not-getting-taller.html
> 
> _Basketball players used to get taller all the time, but not anymore. The average height of an NBA player at the beginning of the 2005-2006 season was 6'-7.18", *down from 6'-7.36" 20 years before.* For each of the last 20 years, players have averaged more than 6'-7" and less than 6'-8"._


thats because it's not alot of 7 foot plus centers around, not the shrinking of the guard plus they listed people way bigger than they actually were


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Magic himself said Jordan was better than him by far. 

Magic : "There is Jordan, and then there is the rest of us"
Bird : "Jordan is God in disguise playing basketball"


If you want to talk about Wilt Chamberlain, there you got a great argument (I love Wilt as a player), even if the majority opinion picks Mike.



KingGeorge said:


> thats because it's not alot of 7 foot plus centers around, not the shrinking of the guard plus they listed people way bigger than they actually were


Hehe ;p 

Do you say that because you believe they didn't know how to measure things back in those ancient times or something? lol


----------



## bball2223

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> I don't hate Jordan. He's just not the be all end all that you nuthuggers like to believe. It's funny to me how Magic and Bird were the best players in the league, then they die and Jordan not only becomes the best player in the league but the best player ever, pure nonsense.


Your comparing two players in their primes to a player who just entered the league. MJ was as good if not better than both during that stretch anyways. Both would even attest to that as I think you could probably google quotes in a few minutes that have both of them giving credit to Mj as the GOAT.


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> thats because it's not alot of 7 foot plus centers around, not the shrinking of the guard plus they listed people way bigger than they actually were


You can make stuff up all you like, I'll stick with the facts, thank you.


----------



## tha supes

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



EGarrett said:


> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zqlBUj9bFC4&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zqlBUj9bFC4&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>



kid: "don't choke michael, don't choke!"

mj: *chuckles and hits shot*

that video was entertaining.


----------



## someone

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I really want to know, does beating up a bunch of grade schoolers in basketball make Jordan feel that much better of himself.

I know you're old, but get some competition.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Jordan schooling Gerald Wallace and Jason Richardson at age 43-44

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fEzq1IXk0bo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fEzq1IXk0bo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

and wait a second... you are a CHICAGO BULLS FAN LOCATED IN CHICAGO!???????!?

You are under 18 years old, guaranteed. No way in hell a Bulls fan that was old enough to watch Michael play would say something like that.

Even then, even Laker fans defend Wilt and Magic and they never saw them play. Some Bulls fan you are!


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



liekomgj4ck said:


> I really want to know, does beating up a bunch of grade schoolers in basketball make Jordan feel that much better of himself.
> 
> I know you're old, but get some competition.


Here's some news for you...Michael Jordan is competitive to the point of borderline insanity. I thought people knew that already.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



23AJ said:


> The bottom line is when you have to use derogatory terms about a player (Which you do all the time in regards to MJ) your taking it to a hateful step, rather than just explaining your reasons why you think player x is better than MJ. I will be the fist to admit I've done the same thing's in the past. However i've seen the light, and now have no hate towards any basketball players, but instead, actual reasons some personal some factual why I believe some are better than others, but still respect player x for their accomplishments and basketball abilities. Rate players on the merit of their basketball skills and careers.


Good grief.

If you read my many, many posts regarding all-time greats (i know it can be a painfull experience!), there's some things you will find out:

1- I have great respect for Michael Jordan the basketball player. IMHO, he is the third greatest player all-time;

2- I pick him ahead of guys like Kareem and Russell, who other posters claim they should be considered the GOAT;

3- I am sane enough and have watched bball for so many years that i've even gone on record saying that had Larry Bird's back not given up, he could be considered ahead of both Magic and Jordan;

4- If you are paying attention, you will see that i crack the wip regarding Michael Jordan when people are either (i) overrating him or (ii) unfairly using him as the standard for evaluating players.
That is:
- If a poster is saying Jordan is the GOAT, he must be able to back it up. And that doesn't only mean poster has to know Jordan: he has to know or have studied guys like Wilt, Russell, Magic, Oscar, etc., or else poster's claim won't have much clout.
- If a poster is claiming that Kobe/AI/other are ball-hoggers, they must accept the fact that Jordan himself was a ball-hogger.

Etc. etc.

I consider myself, at the most, a "reasonable hater"


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



EGarrett said:


> You can make stuff up all you like, I'll stick with the facts, thank you.


I stated facts.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



bball2223 said:


> Your comparing two players in their primes to a player who just entered the league. MJ was as good if not better than both during that stretch anyways. Both would even attest to that as I think you could probably google quotes in a few minutes that have both of them giving credit to Mj as the GOAT.


okay and? LeBron says Kobe isa better than him, does it shut any of you up about LeBron being better than Kobe? no sir. Fact of the matetr is Magic and Bird were considered the best players in teh league and Jordan was considreed a ballhog and a guy who woul;d never taste a championship. People always liek to ignore that, or since it's not apart of the jordan spin machine you all don't know it.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Jordan was considered the best player in the league already in his 3rd and 4th years. This is during the height of the Laker-Celtics rivalries.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> Jordan was considered the best player in the league already in his 3rd and 4th years. This is during the height of the Laker-Celtics rivalries.


You're getting more and more pitifull...


----------



## Cap

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Jordan23Forever said:


> LOL @ naming 3 of the best perimeter defenders in history in a derogatory manner. :lol: And double lol @ acting like Jordan was facing 6'4" guys all the time. When Kobe is guarded by Kidd/Wade/Hinrich/Mobley it's no issue though, of course.


Mobley hasn't guarded Bryant consistently since 2004, Wade almost never guards Kobe when they have faced each other, and the Lakers don't see the Bulls more than twice a year. But you got me on Kidd (rofl). Btw, those players I mentioned were all top defenders in the league at the time, and they were all undersized, an undeniable fact. Today's best perimeter defenders range from 6'6" to 6'8"+ if you simply go by All D selections, unlike late 80's/early 90's SG/SF defenders. 



> The Knicks had Starks, but also Wilkins (6'6") and before that Newman (6'7").


That's nice, too bad Starks got the assignment a vast, vast majority of the time. And fact is, he was an undersized (and frankly mediocre) defender. 



> The Pistons had Dumars, but also used Rodman (6'8") on Jordan.


Except a prime Rodman would get blown by any elite perimeter player today. To think otherwise is laughable, and James Worthy, hardly a 3-point line extended triple threat perimeter player, routinely abused Rodman from the SF position. You think Rodman would have defended today's elite guards with more success? rofl. For christ sakes, Rodman was converted to a PF late in his career. 



> The Bucks used to switch between Alvin Robertson (OMG 6'4"!) and Paul Pressey (6'6") on MJ. Bigger players were never the ones that gave Jordan problems anyway, because he could get by them at will. Bigger players give Kobe problems because he can't explode past them as well as Jordan did; hence they can challenge his shots better. That's why taller guys like Tayshaun Prince got their defensive reps against Kobe, and then get exposed against more explosive players like Lebron and Wade.


Alvin Robertson merely proves my point. To ignore height and length is pretty funny though, as if being able to stay in front of someone matters if he can't contest their shots. :laugh: 



> Fact is, any of those "short" guys you mentioned would give Kobe fits, especially under the old rules. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.


Well, as the resident Jordan jocker who cites stats from Jordan commercials to support his arguments, this should surprise no one.


----------



## Cap

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



EGarrett said:


> In the context I referred to it...it being removed as a tool for perimeter defenders and causing guard scoring to skyrocket...the statement was accurate.


No, the statement was blatantly false if you go by the English definition of banned. There is no context that could alter your quote. It's OK to admit you used the wrong word and move on. 



> You're trying to nitpick because this quibble is not relevant to the point. There's a reason Kobe and Iverson and other guys saw their averages jump 4 to even 7 points per game that year.


AI benefited from the handchecking changes in 04-05 because he was supremely quick, while he suffered from the outdated handchecking rules before 04-05 because he wasn't particularly strong. If you cannot see the important distinction, no one here can help you. Bryant had his highest FG% before the handchecking rules and his 2nd highest PER before the rule changes. He did have his highest FTA and highest PER after the rule changes. Of course, that exactly coincided with the Shaq trade to Miami, so we'll never know if the handchecking rules or Bryant simply being given more touches was the main culprit there. Smart people can figure it out though. 



> I don't care how burdensome it was or whether or not it was better off gone. It was there and it effected how easily guards could score. You're once again bringing up something that is irrelevant. You point out the zone being implemented, I'm responding by telling you that you that handchecking was also removed so it wasn't like guards were suddenly shut down all around the league.
> 
> This is completely irrelevant. If I tell you Player X's shotblocking numbers were inflated at some point because the goaltending rules were different, it's irrelevant to respond that they should've changed the rules. The numbers were still inflated.


If you do not understand that improved supplements, medicine, workout regimens, and defensive schemes led to a necessary, logical change to the handchecking rules (as FG%'s and pace decreased), then you simply do not deserve to be talked to intelligently. 



> Actually, they used to be bigger.
> 
> http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/04/nba-players-not-getting-taller.html
> 
> _Basketball players used to get taller all the time, but not anymore. The average height of an NBA player at the beginning of the 2005-2006 season was 6'-7.18", *down from 6'-7.36" 20 years before.* For each of the last 20 years, players have averaged more than 6'-7" and less than 6'-8"._


You have cited some random blog that cites a reference link to an AOL golf page, a link that no longer works. Additionally, your own link states the following: "Average weight, however, has gone up from 214.4 to 223.1 pounds". If you cannot see how increased strength would mandate a rule change and NOT inflate statistical production relative to prior eras, then you are simply poorly informed.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



PauloCatarino said:


> You're getting more and more pitifull...


Correction. I mistakenly said his 3rd and 4th year.

I meant his 2nd year in the league.

Jordan was able to play in only 18 regular-season games in his second year in the NBA, after breaking a small bone in his foot in Chicago's third game of the year. Although he was encouraged to sit out the end of the season in order to make sure he was fully healed for the next, he insisted on coming back late in the season and led the Bulls to the 1986 NBA Playoffs.

It was in Game 2 of Chicago's first round matchup against the eventual NBA champion Boston Celtics that Jordan showed just how thoroughly he had recovered. In the hallowed halls of the Boston Garden, he set a playoff record by scoring an amazing 63 points against what many considered to be one of the greatest NBA teams ever. The Celtics won the game, 135-131 in double-overtime, and went on to sweep the Bulls, but Jordan's playoff record still stands.

"Michael was doing so much and so well, I found myself just wanting to stop and watch him -- and I was playing," said teammate John Paxson.

"I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us," marveled *Celtics ace Larry Bird.* "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."


----------



## MrJayremmie

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Why does it matter if someone thinks that Magic and Bird are the 2 best players of all time? Who cares? why can't you have an opinion. Its not like he is saying it is a fact. That is what he thinks. So good for him. Magic and Bird are in my top 3 of all-time right after MJ.

(also, i think he is a Laker fan)


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> Correction. I mistakenly said his 3rd and 4th year.
> 
> I meant his 2nd year in the league.
> 
> Jordan was able to play in only 18 regular-season games in his second year in the NBA, after breaking a small bone in his foot in Chicago's third game of the year. Although he was encouraged to sit out the end of the season in order to make sure he was fully healed for the next, he insisted on coming back late in the season and led the Bulls to the 1986 NBA Playoffs.
> 
> It was in Game 2 of Chicago's first round matchup against the eventual NBA champion Boston Celtics that Jordan showed just how thoroughly he had recovered. In the hallowed halls of the Boston Garden, he set a playoff record by scoring an amazing 63 points against what many considered to be one of the greatest NBA teams ever. The Celtics won the game, 135-131 in double-overtime, and went on to sweep the Bulls, but Jordan's playoff record still stands.
> 
> "Michael was doing so much and so well, I found myself just wanting to stop and watch him -- and I was playing," said teammate John Paxson.
> 
> "I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us," marveled *Celtics ace Larry Bird.* "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."


:lol:

Oh, man, keep'em coming! You're cracking me up!


----------



## Pimped Out

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> Correction. I mistakenly said his 3rd and 4th year.
> 
> I meant his 2nd year in the league.
> 
> Jordan was able to play in only 18 regular-season games in his second year in the NBA, after breaking a small bone in his foot in Chicago's third game of the year. Although he was encouraged to sit out the end of the season in order to make sure he was fully healed for the next, he insisted on coming back late in the season and led the Bulls to the 1986 NBA Playoffs.
> 
> It was in Game 2 of Chicago's first round matchup against the eventual NBA champion Boston Celtics that Jordan showed just how thoroughly he had recovered. In the hallowed halls of the Boston Garden, he set a playoff record by scoring an amazing 63 points against what many considered to be one of the greatest NBA teams ever. The Celtics won the game, 135-131 in double-overtime, and went on to sweep the Bulls, but Jordan's playoff record still stands.
> 
> "Michael was doing so much and so well, I found myself just wanting to stop and watch him -- and I was playing," said teammate John Paxson.
> 
> "I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us," marveled *Celtics ace Larry Bird.* "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."


you know, when you copy and paste things written on other sites, you should cite them


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> Jordan schooling Gerald Wallace and Jason Richardson at age 43-44
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fEzq1IXk0bo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fEzq1IXk0bo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
> 
> and wait a second... you are a CHICAGO BULLS FAN LOCATED IN CHICAGO!???????!?
> 
> You are under 18 years old, guaranteed. No way in hell a Bulls fan that was old enough to watch Michael play would say something like that.
> 
> Even then, even Laker fans defend Wilt and Magic and they never saw them play. Some Bulls fan you are!


Jordan will always have game, even when dude is like a 100 years old.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> Correction. I mistakenly said his 3rd and 4th year.
> 
> I meant his 2nd year in the league.
> 
> Jordan was able to play in only 18 regular-season games in his second year in the NBA, after breaking a small bone in his foot in Chicago's third game of the year. Although he was encouraged to sit out the end of the season in order to make sure he was fully healed for the next, he insisted on coming back late in the season and led the Bulls to the 1986 NBA Playoffs.
> 
> It was in Game 2 of Chicago's first round matchup against the eventual NBA champion Boston Celtics that Jordan showed just how thoroughly he had recovered. In the hallowed halls of the Boston Garden, he set a playoff record by scoring an amazing 63 points against what many considered to be one of the greatest NBA teams ever. The Celtics won the game, 135-131 in double-overtime, and went on to sweep the Bulls, but Jordan's playoff record still stands.
> 
> "Michael was doing so much and so well, I found myself just wanting to stop and watch him -- and I was playing," said teammate John Paxson.
> 
> "I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us," marveled *Celtics ace Larry Bird.* "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."


http://www.nba.com/history/jordan63_moments.html

lol You sir are a poser, please study the game a bit more before you copy and paste.
Word of advice, don't believe everything Wikipedia/the media tells you. Do your own research.


----------



## bball2223

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> okay and? LeBron says Kobe isa better than him, does it shut any of you up about LeBron being better than Kobe? no sir. Fact of the matetr is Magic and Bird were considered the best players in teh league and Jordan was considreed a ballhog and a guy who woul;d never taste a championship. People always liek to ignore that, or since it's not apart of the jordan spin machine you all don't know it.


MJ had nobody on his team absolutely nobody. His supporting cast was worse than that of LeBrons current cast which is saying something. Magic had Worthy, Scott, Rambis, AC Green, heck I didn't even mention Kareem Abdul-Jabar. Larry Legend had Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, and others. Both had worlds better supporting casts. Heck MJ dropped 63 on the Celtics (which is still a playoff record) in his second season only a few weeks after coming back from a broken foot. Both Bird and Johnson were great players but they also had other great players around them. MJ was a ballhog because his team needed him to be, just like Kobe before Gasol/Odom came to town.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



MrJayremmie said:


> Why does it matter if someone thinks that Magic and Bird are the 2 best players of all time? Who cares? why can't you have an opinion. Its not like he is saying it is a fact. That is what he thinks. So good for him. Magic and Bird are in my top 3 of all-time right after MJ.
> 
> (also, i think he is a Laker fan)


It doesn't, it only matters when people say Jordan is the GOAT by far, or no one is even close. Which is false. That's what we dispute, we don't dispute Jordan's greatness, we dispute other peoples ignorance.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



bball2223 said:


> MJ had nobody on his team absolutely nobody. His supporting cast was worse than that of LeBrons current cast which is saying something. Magic had Worthy, Scott, Rambis, AC Green, heck I didn't even mention Kareem Abdul-Jabar. Larry Legend had Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, and others. Both had worlds better supporting casts. Heck MJ dropped 63 on the Celtics (which is still a playoff record) in his second season only a few weeks after coming back from a broken foot. Both Bird and Johnson were great players but they also had other great players around them. MJ was a ballhog because his team needed him to be, just like Kobe before Gasol/Odom came to town.


 Yeah, yeah. And when Jordan won he had loaded teams in teh same mold of those Lakers, celtics, pistons teams, but somehow he was the sole player responsible for those rings according to Team Jordan. When somebody points out he lost yall say oh he had no help, but when he won yall still pretend he did it all by himself. You Jordan fans are crazy.


----------



## bball2223

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> Yeah, yeah. And when Jordan won he had loaded teams in teh same mold of those Lakers, celtics, pistons teams, but somehow he was the sole player responsible for those rings according to Team Jordan. When somebody points out he lost yall say oh he had no help, but when he won yall still pretend he did it all by himself. You Jordan fans are crazy.


He had loaded teams like those laker and Celtic teams? His teams were good but not Laker/Celtic good. I'm not even a big Jordan fan the fact you make all these bogus claims and double-stndards to dispute him being the GOAT is just laughable. There are others who can stake a claim to begin the GOAT, but you act like MJ shouldn't be mentioned, foh.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



bball2223 said:


> He had loaded teams like those laker and Celtic teams? His teams were good but not Laker/Celtic good. I'm not even a big Jordan fan the fact you make all these bogus claims and double-stndards to dispute him being the GOAT is just laughable. There are others who can stake a claim to begin the GOAT, but you act like MJ shouldn't be mentioned, foh.


I said in the same mold, i didn't say if they were better or worse. What bogus claim have I made? Everything that I have stated is actual fact. History has been very kind to Jordan and his legacy. Jordan is not the greatest of all-time. Jordan is a all-time great but when you say he's the absolute greatest of all-time you are being ridiculous.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> I said in the same mold, i didn't say if they were better or worse. What bogus claim have I made? Everything that I have stated is actual fact. History has been very kind to Jordan and his legacy. Jordan is not the greatest of all-time. Jordan is a all-time great but when you say he's the absolute greatest of all-time you are being ridiculous.


Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> Yeah, yeah. And when Jordan won he had loaded teams in teh same mold of those Lakers, celtics, pistons teams, but somehow he was the sole player responsible for those rings according to Team Jordan. When somebody points out he lost yall say oh he had no help, but when he won yall still pretend he did it all by himself. You Jordan fans are crazy.


BOGUS claim number one, is you insinuating that the Bulls were anything of the same mold as the Lakers/Celtics. The Bulls were extremely different and unique to their style of play, and players they had to work with.

Second look at the statistical numbers Jordan put up in the Bulls 1st 3 peat, and 2nd 3 peat. You will see how much Jordan dominated in the finals/playoffs compared to the rest of his teammates. And also compared to other greats. Jordan's numbers speak loud and clear. However I doubt seriously you saw the playoff games or finals that MJ took part of. Luckily I can say I watched the Bulls/Pistons/Celtics/and Lakers in the finals. MJ's playoff performances are some of the most memorable and stat's wise the very best.

PANEL OF EXPERTS

• Marv Albert, TNT
• Steve Aschburner, AOL.com, Minneapolis Star-Tribune
• Rick Barry, Hall of Famer
• Clyde Drexler, Hall of Famer
• David DuPree, USA Today
• Clyde Frazier, Hall of Famer
• George Gervin, Hall of Famer
• Gail Goodrich, NBA TV, Hall of Famer
• Frank Isola, NY Daily News
• Phil Jasner, Philadelphia Daily News
• Bob Lanier, Hall of Famer
• Jack McCallum, Sports Illustrated
• Brent Musburger, ABC/ESPN
• Scottie Pippen, ABC/ESPN, One of the 50 Greatest Players
• Harvey Pollack, 76ers Director of Statistical Information
• Jack Ramsay, Hall of Famer, ABC/ESPN
• Bill Russell, Hall of Famer
• Chris Sheridan, ESPN.com
• Bill Simmons, ESPN.com
• Kenny Smith, TNT
• Sam Smith, Chicago Tribune
• Dick Stockton, TNT
• Rick Kamla, NBA TV
• Peter Vecsey, NY Post
• Bill Walton, Hall of Famer, ABC/ESPN

The above panel voted on the top 60 playoff performances of all time. Take a look little buddy. And come out from under your rock, and visit reality some time.

http://www.nba.com/encyclopedia/moments/60moments.html


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

He dominated the ball of course he had better stats Good lord you kids are retarded. The first 3 peat yeah Jordan shot like 50 percent, second 3peat he shot like 43% and still was taking about 30 shots a night, the exact same crap Kobe gets crucified for.

The Bulls were built in the same mold of the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, etc.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> He dominated the ball of course he had better stats Good lord you kids are retarded. The first 3 peat yeah Jordan shot like 50 percent, second 3peat he shot like 43% and still was taking about 30 shots a night, the exact same crap Kobe gets crucified for.
> 
> The Bulls were built in the same mold of the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, etc.


Uhh Kobe never shot 50 percent from the field. Umm Kobe lost in the finals twice, Jordan never lost. Kobe was never the Finals MVP, Jordan was the MVP finals six times with six chips/rings to boast. Come correct or don't come at all. Your making false blanket statements. With little to back yourself up.

The Bulls were not bulit in the same mold as the Lakers and Celtics or Pistons. I'll start with a few of the basics, PG's the Bulls never had a good one. Pistons Zeke Lakers Magic, and Celtics Dennis Johnson. Also the Lakers/Pistons/ and Celtics all had clearly better Centers to work with. That's just to name a few. The Bulls had one great player, an all star forward, and great glue guys in the vein of Udonis Haslem to fill out the roster for their front court. Good outside shooters, and a very savy up and coming coach, who had great influence on one of the games greatest players of all time. In helping shape his trust, direct his passion, and use his force and power in an all around more team approach.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> He dominated the ball of course he had better stats


LOL @ "he dominated the ball." Jordan actually took far less time to score than Kobe does. He didn't need the ball in his hands for nearly as long on average to make something happen. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Jordan put up numbers because he was _that_ good. Period.


----------



## someone

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Jordan put up numbers because he was _that_ good. Period.


prove it.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

What type of Bulls fan are you?


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Pimped Out said:


> you know, when you copy and paste things written on other sites, you should cite them


thought it was pretty obvious , even so, ill make it more obvious in the future but it's irrelevant. the facts dont change


----------



## someone

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I'm a real bulls fan, more of a scottie and dennis advocate though, although I still love MJ and all he did for us. 

I just can't take any more of this blind love for MJ... I guess I'm just playing devils advocate.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

this is the problem with the passage of time. it's sad really. 

although there is a wealth of videos and articles on this subject, the young generation just doesn't know unless they spend time researching it.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z_uguiZz1TQ&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z_uguiZz1TQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


----------



## someone

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I'm 23, I don't need a lesson


----------



## carrrnuttt

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> this is the problem with the passage of time. it's sad really.
> 
> although there is a wealth of videos and articles on this subject, the young generation just doesn't know unless they spend time researching it.
> 
> 
> <OBJECT height=344 width=425>
> 
> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z_uguiZz1TQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></OBJECT>


</P> 
That's a nice way to put it all in perspective.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Kobe and Melo combined 7-24 in the game vs Australia.....Going to have to pass more when your shots aren't falling, guys! Too many good players on TEAM USA that can easily pick up slack.


Wade continues to shine with 23 pts some assists rebs and steals vs Australia all while coming off the bench with less minutes


----------



## LionOfJudah

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Kobe = Reggie Miller on HGH


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> I stated facts.


These are facts, now?

_"it's not alot of 7 foot plus centers around, not the shrinking of the guard plus they listed people way bigger than they actually were"_

Those are actually called speculation and unsupported assertions. They're worthless.



EHL said:


> No, the statement was blatantly false if you go by the English definition of banned. There is no context that could alter your quote. It's OK to admit you used the wrong word and move on.


Nope. The handchecking that was used to slow perimeter guards was indeed banned. Handchecking in general, such as in the post between larger players was not. My statement in context is quite accurate. You're bringing in something irrelevant.



> AI benefited from the handchecking changes in 04-05 because he was supremely quick, while he suffered from the outdated handchecking rules before 04-05 because he wasn't particularly strong.


Yes, and? This is just an acknowledgement that the handchecking helped these same guards who were supposedly harmed by the zone.



> If you cannot see the important distinction, no one here can help you. Bryant had his highest FG% before the handchecking rules and his 2nd highest PER before the rule changes. He did have his highest FTA and highest PER after the rule changes.


And his highest PPG average. So apparently the zone wasn't that big of a factor in harming guard's numbers.



> Of course, that exactly coincided with the Shaq trade to Miami, so we'll never know if the handchecking rules or Bryant simply being given more touches was the main culprit there. Smart people can figure it out though.


Smart people can look at other players who did NOT see a major scorer like Shaq leave their team and whose scoring still shot-up, and see that the handchecking ban DID make a big difference.



> If you do not understand that improved supplements, medicine, workout regimens, and defensive schemes led to a necessary, logical change to the handchecking rules (as FG%'s and pace decreased),


I don't care WHY the handchecking rules changed. They did. The point which I'm making to you is that the handchecking rule greatly increased guard's ability to score, in counter to the zone rule which it's being claimed greatly decreased it. It doesn't matter WHY, it doesn't matter if the rule needed to be removed or didn't need to be removed...it was removed...and it increased their ability to score.

In regards to how irrelevant the medicine, supplements point is, I could just as easily say that the zone defense NEEDED to be implemented to counter that. Do you see how it makes no difference and can be applied willy nilly to both points?



> then you simply do not deserve to be talked to intelligently.


If you sink into attacking other people, avoiding conversation or generally saying things like this, then YOU are the one who isn't speaking intelligently.



> You have cited some random blog that cites a reference link to an AOL golf page, a link that no longer works.


That's fine. Do you have a reference to the contrary? It still strongly contradicts what you're trying to say. Even IF the size stayed the same (instead of decreasing), it renders your point meaningless.



> Additionally, your own link states the following: "Average weight, however, has gone up from 214.4 to 223.1 pounds". If you cannot see how increased strength would mandate a rule change and NOT inflate statistical production relative to prior eras, then you are simply poorly informed.


Increased weight does not equal increased athleticism or strength. And besides, you yourself brought up Sidney Moncrief, John Starks, and Joe Dumars, all of whom were in the 6'3" to 6'4" range. That's height, NOT strength. But when shown that height has not changed overall, you then try to jump to strength, when for all we know Dumars and Moncrief could be incredibly strong, thus rendering your own argument moot again. You're backpedaling at record speeds.

Your arguments keep boiling down to backpedaling, irrelevant points, unsourced assertions, and constant signs that you're going to declare the conversation "unintelligent" and either start insulting or run away. None of this is good discussion.


----------



## DuMa

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Jordan is educating the kids.


----------



## Cap

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



EGarrett said:


> Nope. The handchecking that was used to slow perimeter guards was indeed banned.


Again, I ask you to please cite a source (NBA rule book, article, etc.) that makes the claim "handchecking that was used to slow perimeter guards was banned". You will find no credible source or credible person that says handchecking has been banned. Give up on this lost cause, you look sad trying to peddle this nonsense. 



> Handchecking in general, such as in the post between larger players was not. My statement in context is quite accurate. You're bringing in something irrelevant.


No, I am in fact asking you to prove your made-up bunk. You cannot, you merely provided a link proving my original point, that you used the wrong word to describe the frequency of handchecking that can occur in today's game. And frankly, if you honestly think players don't handcheck on the perimeter these days, you completely missed this past postseason. 



> Yes, and? This is just an acknowledgement that the handchecking helped these same guards who were supposedly harmed by the zone.


The handchecking rules had become outdated by the late 90's/early 00's, as players were much stronger (undeniable fact) and much quicker (less provable, but probably true). This is what eventually led to the logical progression of altered handchecking rules in 04-05. So those players that were overly negatively effected by outdated handchecking in the late 90's/early 00's were now finally being given a more fair shot, especially those who were lightening quick (AI). This is not hard to understand. 

And the zone has nothing to do with this current, specific conversation. Keep up. 



> And his highest PPG average. So apparently the zone wasn't that big of a factor in harming guard's numbers.


Huh? What does the zone have to do with handchecking? 



> Smart people can look at other players who did NOT see a major scorer like Shaq leave their team and whose scoring still shot-up, and see that the handchecking ban DID make a big difference.


Actually smart people will look up Kobe's numbers when Shaq was out with injury before the handchecking rule changes in 04-05, and what they'll see is that they went up across the board, including PPG. Again, if you're smart and can add numbers. 



> I don't care WHY the handchecking rules changed. They did. The point which I'm making to you is that the handchecking rule greatly increased guard's ability to score, in counter to the zone rule which it's being claimed greatly decreased it. It doesn't matter WHY, it doesn't matter if the rule needed to be removed or didn't need to be removed...it was removed...and it increased their ability to score.


That's correct, it helped them score more, while previously, earlier in the decade, it helped them score less. That statistical variation quite easily balances itself out, something you completely fail to either understand or acknowledge. 

And the zone would further balance out the advantage of more lax handchecking rules. Why you keep bringing up the zone in a handchecking discussion, I don't really know. But your reference to it here actually hurts your argument that handchecking has artificially inflated perimeter scorer's numbers, when in reality other rule changes like the zone, improved defensive scheming, and improved athletes/defenders on the perimeter have more than balanced that. 



> In regards to how irrelevant the medicine, supplements point is, I could just as easily say that the zone defense NEEDED to be implemented to counter that. Do you see how it makes no difference and can be applied willy nilly to both points?


This makes absolutely no sense, FYI. 



> If you sink into attacking other people, avoiding conversation or generally saying things like this, then YOU are the one who isn't speaking intelligently.


Your arguments are bunk and I am letting you know just how bunk they are. 



> That's fine. Do you have a reference to the contrary? It still strongly contradicts what you're trying to say. Even IF the size stayed the same (instead of decreasing), it renders your point meaningless.


WTF? You made a claim that handchecking was banned, tried to back it up (and failed), and now are backtracking and asking me to prove that handchecking hasn't been banned? Good lord. The burden of proof is on YOUR shoulders. I shouldn't have to link you to official NBA web sites (like this one: http://www.nba.com/features/stujackson_bogpresentation_070503.html), which states in plain English that hand checking hasn't been banned: 



Stu Jackson said:


> *Q: Can you explain what went into the hand-check rule and break that down how it’s been successful thus far?*
> 
> SJ: The hand check has always been a part of pro basketball. What we have done is interpret the hand check slightly different in that, if a defender has what I’ll refer to as a “stayed hand” on the defender, e.g. with a stiffened elbow, a foul on the defense would be called if it affects the offensive player's speed, rhythm or balance. It's been five years since we really began to interpret the hand check in this way, and we continue to focus on enforcement.





> Increased weight does not equal increased athleticism or strength. And besides, you yourself brought up Sidney Moncrief, John Starks, and Joe Dumars, all of whom were in the 6'3" to 6'4" range. That's height, NOT strength. But when shown that height has not changed overall, you then try to jump to strength, when for all we know Dumars and Moncrief could be incredibly strong, thus rendering your own argument moot again. You're backpedaling at record speeds.


Again, WTF? When did I ever give credence to your blog that cites an AOL golf page link? I didn't, which is precisely why I do not believe for a second that perimeter players heights have stayed the same for 20 years. That's utter nonsense. I was merely pointing out that if you believe that bunk link, then you also believe that players are stronger nowadays given they cited an increase in weight. But apparently, an increase in weight of 9 lbs on average doesn't translate into players being stronger according to you, which delineates just how utterly clueless you really are. For someone to truly believe this they would have to believe players on average have gotten fatter and slower. Well, I guess that's consistent with the rest of your lunacy. 



> Your arguments keep boiling down to backpedaling, irrelevant points, unsourced assertions, and constant signs that you're going to declare the conversation "unintelligent" and either start insulting or run away. None of this is good discussion.


This is comical beyond belief. See above Stu Jackson link for your ownage, kid. :laugh:


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> this is the problem with the passage of time. it's sad really.
> 
> although there is a wealth of videos and articles on this subject, the young generation just doesn't know unless they spend time researching it.
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z_uguiZz1TQ&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z_uguiZz1TQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>



Yes, the passage of time has erased all the wrongs of Jordan and made him godly. Talk about Jordan leading the league in total shot attempts 9 seasons , i would hope you do lead the league in scoring if you are going to shoot 25 times a game.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Jordan averaged 50% or BETTER during his scoring titles 

so he can take those shots since he is making a ton of them


do you want to talk about kobe's FG%?


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Adrian Dantley was a better scorer than Michael Jordan.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> Jordan averaged 50% or BETTER during his scoring titles
> 
> so he can take those shots since he is making a ton of them
> 
> 
> do you want to talk about kobe's FG%?


Nobody else shot that much despite shooting better than Jordan. Jordan was a gunner plain and simple.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


>


Self portrait?


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> Self portrait?


no, it means that you have contributed less than nothing. That's your prize. Go get it.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



IceMan23and3 said:


> no, it means that you have contributed less than nothing. That's your prize. Go get it.


Jordan fanboy got his feelings hurt? Jordan was 40 years old, shooting 40% and still shooting 22 times a game. 6'5 Adrian Dantley was averaging 30 year after year without shooting 20 shots or less. Larry Bird shot just as well if not better from the floor, he still didn't shoot as much as Jordan, so kill all that well he had a higfh fgp, so he had the right to shoot.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> Jordan averaged 50% or BETTER during his scoring titles
> 
> so he can take those shots since he is making a ton of them
> 
> 
> do you want to talk about kobe's FG%?


kobe's scoring efficiency has actually been pretty comparable to jordan's post '91 efficiency. 5 of his 6 title seasons.

ts% is far more relevant as a measure of scoring efficiency than fg%, which has become somewhat meaningless comparing players who take a fair amount of 3's.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> Jordan fanboy got his feelings hurt? Jordan was 40 years old, shooting 40% and still shooting 22 times a game. 6'5 Adrian Dantley was averaging 30 year after year without shooting 20 shots or less. Larry Bird shot just as well if not better from the floor, he still didn't shoot as much as Jordan, so kill all that well he had a higfh fgp, so he had the right to shoot.


how bout this - he had a right to shoot because his teams won 6 freakin titles with him shooting alot.


----------



## BallerBlogger

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> Jordan averaged 50% or BETTER during his scoring titles
> 
> so he can take those shots since he is making a ton of them
> 
> 
> do you want to talk about kobe's FG%?


Michael Jordan Statistics

Jordan's Scoring Titles:

1986-87 NBA 37.1 (1)
1987-88 NBA 35.0 (1)
1988-89 NBA 32.5 (1)
1989-90 NBA 33.6 (1)
1990-91 NBA 31.5 (1)
1991-92 NBA 30.1 (1)
1992-93 NBA 32.6 (1)
1995-96 NBA 30.4 (1)
1996-97 NBA 29.6 (1)
1997-98 NBA 28.7 (1)

Jordan DID NOT shoot 50% or better in 1986-87, 1996-97, or 1997-98.

The more you know...

*BallerBlogger.com*


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> Jordan fanboy got his feelings hurt? Jordan was 40 years old, shooting 40% and still shooting 22 times a game. 6'5 Adrian Dantley was averaging 30 year after year without shooting 20 shots or less. Larry Bird shot just as well if not better from the floor, he still didn't shoot as much as Jordan, so kill all that well he had a higfh fgp, so he had the right to shoot.


ok. that makes sense now. go back to your bridge.


----------



## BallerBlogger

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



kflo said:


> kobe's scoring efficiency has actually been pretty comparable to jordan's post '91 efficiency. 5 of his 6 title seasons.
> 
> ts% is far more relevant as a measure of scoring efficiency than fg%, which has become somewhat meaningless comparing players who take a fair amount of 3's.


VERY good point.

Jordan took a total of 1,778 3-point attempts throughout his career. Kobe has taken 3,192 3-point shots thus far.

Kobe Bryant Statistics

Michael Jordan Statistics

*BallerBlogger.com*


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

So you are basically saying Kobe should stop chucking so many 3's 
lol


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> So you are basically saying Kobe should stop chucking so many 3's
> lol


Either that or that Jordan did not have 3-point range. I'll leave you to figure that out.


----------



## duncan2k5

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

end of arguement for those saying mike was always allowed to plat 1 on 1. MJ is the greatest ever by a very large margin. kobe isnt even top 10. what has kobe done in his career to warrant being compared to MJ? he isnt even the best player NOW. lebron is. wow...i imagine most of you guys here are under 20


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Undefeated82 said:


> Either that or that Jordan did not have 3-point range. I'll leave you to figure that out.


 or Jordan had great shot selection which made him a much more efficient scorer. I'll leave you to figure that out.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> or Jordan had great shot selection which made him a much more efficient scorer. I'll leave you to figure that out.


30 pints on24 shots is 30points on 24 shots whether i shot 40% or 50% and to make it worse thes guys shoot less than Jordan, worse than Jordan, shoot less freebies than Jordan, but still score just as much as Jordan. Just goes to show how stupid efficiency ratings are.


----------



## carrrnuttt

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



BallerBlogger said:


> VERY good point.
> 
> Jordan took a total of 1,778 3-point attempts throughout his career. Kobe has taken 3,192 3-point shots thus far.
> 
> Kobe Bryant Statistics
> 
> Michael Jordan Statistics
> 
> *BallerBlogger.com*


Which means that Kobe's scoring is actually inflated by his love for the 3-pointer, right? :whistling:


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> this is the problem with the passage of time. it's sad really.
> 
> although there is a wealth of videos and articles on this subject, the young generation just doesn't know unless they spend time researching it.
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z_uguiZz1TQ&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z_uguiZz1TQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


Knowledge!


----------



## Premier

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I think it is fairly clear that Jordan, in his prime (he peaked during his non-title years, in my opinion, but obviously was nearly as good during the first title run), was better, but to discredit Kobe's ability, production, and achievements in order to argue on behalf of Jordan is simply ridiculous.


----------



## Premier

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



carrrnuttt said:


> Which means that Kobe's scoring is actually inflated by his love for the 3-pointer, right? :whistling:


Efficient scoring is efficient scoring is efficient scoring.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Just not as efficient as Michael Jordan


----------



## Plastic Man

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

^^Of course not. MJ was clearly the more efficient scorer. However, quit talking nonsense and citing FG percentages and rather get your facts straight. It's not like Jordan was Shaq-like efficient, while Kobe is Antoine Walker in a shooting guard's body. Michael's career TS% is .569, while Kobe's is .557. Interesting, don't you think? (well, okay, my bad, the last sentence implies that there are some braincells left functioning in that empty space between your ears )


----------



## Plastic Man

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



duncan2k5 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE
> 
> end of arguement for those saying mike was always allowed to plat 1 on 1. MJ is the greatest ever by a very large margin. kobe isnt even top 10. what has kobe done in his career to warrant being compared to MJ? he isnt even the best player NOW. lebron is. wow...i imagine most of you guys here are under 20


Since you've decided to take a rather interesting approach, let's see. Kobe has "done" the following in his career (which, as you've guessed, is far from over:

2007–08 NBA MVP
10-time NBA All-Star
10-time All-NBA Selection
8-time All-Defensive Selection
3-time NBA Champion
2-time NBA All-Star MVP
2-time NBA Scoring Champion

Conversely, what has LeBron James "done" in his career?


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> or Jordan had great shot selection which made him a much more efficient scorer. I'll leave you to figure that out.


you're missing the point. he wasn't a much more efficient scorer (after '91), as evidenced by their ts%. fg% doesn't tell the story.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> So you are basically saying Kobe should stop chucking so many 3's
> lol


no, i'm saying you should get a better understanding of scoring efficiency and ts%.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Kobe just doesn't have the strength MJ had... its obvious to anyone that saw MJ during his prime years with the Bulls. Defensively, Jordan was a rock... you weren't going to back him down easily... 

Jordan would beat Kobe 1 on 1 7 time out of 10, in my opinion.... he was just better at basketball.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Dornado said:


> Kobe just doesn't have the strength MJ had... its obvious to anyone that saw MJ during his prime years with the Bulls. Defensively, Jordan was a rock... you weren't going to back him down easily...
> 
> Jordan would beat Kobe 1 on 1 7 time out of 10, in my opinion.... he was just better at basketball.


Oh please. Jordan never played against anyone who could or would back him down in the finals. Stop maing up stuff.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Plastic Man said:


> ^^Of course not. MJ was clearly the more efficient scorer. However, quit talking nonsense and citing FG percentages and rather get your facts straight. It's not like Jordan was Shaq-like efficient, while Kobe is Antoine Walker in a shooting guard's body. Michael's career TS% is .569, while Kobe's is .557. Interesting, don't you think? (well, okay, my bad, the last sentence implies that there are some braincells left functioning in that empty space between your ears )


Uhh, how about comparing them through the same age rather than comparing Kobe through age 29 and Jordan through age 40? Jordan's TS% through age 29 was *59.4%*, including 4 consecutive seasons of 60+% TS (Jordan has 4 of only 10 30 ppg/60% TS seasons in NBA history, btw). Jordan's career high TS% is 61.4%. Kobe's career TS% is *55.7%* with a high of 58.0%, and this is despite averaging a far lower ppg volume than Jordan for most of those years. In case you can't do the math, there's a *significant* difference there.

And TS% is inflated by excessive FT's for perimeter players the last few years anyway. Which is why Kobe fans love TS%, mind you. Give Kobe the 7-8 FTA/gm he's actually deserved the last few years based on his playing style (80% of his attempts are jumpers) rather than the 10 FTA he's averaged and tell me what his TS% is then.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> Adrian Dantley was a better scorer than Michael Jordan.


Dantley was an incredibly potent scorer, but only if you gave him like 10-12 seconds to score the ball. Kinda like Kobe, actually, who needs a lot of touches and a lot of shots to get into a rhythm. Which I guess is why you like Dantley. Jordan needed much less time with the ball in order to make things happen, which is why, unlike any other star today save for Shaq, he was able to integrate all-time level production into a team concept and win championships. 

LOL @ talking about how many shots Jordan took. Too bad for you his points per shot was higher than Kobe's too. That's not supposed to be the case when you take more shots. Volume is inversely proportionate to efficiency typically.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

^^^^^^^ great posts.....

and JOrdan did all of that as the main man focus of double and triple teams.

Kobe played in the NBA as robin to Shaq's batman. 

imagine if jordan had a prime shaq


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> ^^^^^^^ great posts.....
> 
> and JOrdan did all of that as the main man focus of double and triple teams.
> 
> Kobe played in the NBA as robin to Shaq's batman.
> 
> imagine if jordan had a prime shaq


If Jordan had to play behind Shaq he wouldn't be Jordan


----------



## LionOfJudah

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> If Jordan had to play behind Shaq he wouldn't be Jordan


Yeah, he'd just be another Kobe then.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Dantley was an incredibly potent scorer, but only if you gave him like 10-12 seconds to score the ball. Kinda like Kobe, actually, who needs a lot of touches and a lot of shots to get into a rhythm. Which I guess is why you like Dantley.
> 
> LOL @ talking about how many shots Jordan took. Too bad for you his points per shot was higher than Kobe's too. That's not supposed to be the case when you take more shots. Volume is inversely proportionate to efficiency typically.


career jordan averages 1.316pps
Kobe's is 1.314pps Oh, a huge difference.


----------



## Plastic Man

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Uhh, how about comparing them through the same age rather than comparing Kobe through age 29 and Jordan through age 40?


And why would we do that? It's not like you Jordan fans don't compare his achievements throughout his career to Kobe's 2/3 (or whatever) of his. Not only that, comparing them like that conveniently excludes Jordan's less efficient years and doesn't do the same with Kobe's. But since I'm not really arguing over efficiency to begin with, I don't really care how you compare the two. In case you can't *read*, I've never claimed that Bryant is as efficient as Jordan or whatever your post was trying to dispute/prove. MJ was the superior scorer and a more efficient one. I was just trying to get some sense into ChrisRichards' head, but it's really nice that you came to save the damsel in distress.

p.s.: your last paragraph is funny. It's nice that you apply such logic... probably wins every argument for you, doesn't it?


----------



## duncan2k5

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

he does that because you kobe is in his prime, you cant compare someone's whole career to another person who hasn't had the downfall of his career as yet...the IQ of kobe fans...never ceases to amaze...


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



duncan2k5 said:


> he does that because you kobe is in his prime, you cant compare someone's whole career to another person who hasn't had the downfall of his career as yet...the IQ of kobe fans...never ceases to amaze...


Damn! You praying for Kobe's downfall? Why he can't retire as a still productive player? Why he got to hold on till he can barely score?


----------



## duncan2k5

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

and to the other guy, lebron is better than kobe. it's obvious. put lerbon on this laker team, they beat the celtics easily. they almost beat the celts with his crap team. put lebron on the championship shaq's team lakers, they six-peat...easily. i have magic powers that enable me to see any scenario. there was never a year when kobe was the clear cut best player in the game. take away shaq's championhips, then he would have had t-mac's career (barring the injuries). he doesn't even have the best active scoring average...not ev en top three. and you compare him to MJ??? he isn't even on the scoring level with iverson. scoring is kobe's best attribute, and he isn't the best at it. so how is he the best??????


----------



## duncan2k5

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> Damn! You praying for Kobe's downfall? Why he can't retire as a still productive player? Why he got to hold on till he can barely score?


ummm...maybe because EVERY player has a dip in production as they get older...but HEY!!! HE'S KOBE!!!! HE IS INVINCIBLE!!!! NOT SUCCEPTIBLE TO THE EFFECTS OF AGE!!!!!!


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

lebron IS better than kobe........

there is no denying that. watch them play.

the cavs almost took out the celtics in 7 games, in a close game 7.....

give Lebron gasol and odom, oh boy.


----------



## duncan2k5

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Dornado said:


> Kobe just doesn't have the strength MJ had... its obvious to anyone that saw MJ during his prime years with the Bulls. Defensively, Jordan was a rock... you weren't going to back him down easily...
> 
> Jordan would beat Kobe 1 on 1 7 time out of 10, in my opinion.... he was just better at basketball.


seriously...they tried to hide kobe's 1st all team defense by putting him on rondo...and he STILL got his *$$ bust! rondo was getting to the rim at will, and grabbing offensive rebounds over kobe like nobody was there...


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Cavs went 7 with LeBron shooting like 2 percent from the floor. Lebron sure did carry that team.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> career jordan averages 1.316pps
> Kobe's is 1.314pps Oh, a huge difference.


Another clown talking about Jordan's CAREER numbers, which included 3 past-prime seasons at age 33-35 and two ancient seasons at age 39-40. Here are their numbers through age 29, for the record:

Jordan: 1.396 points per FGA
Kobe: 1.314 points per FGA

That is a *huge* difference. It's roughly the difference in efficiency between Kobe and Iverson. And we all know how Kobe fans are always telling us how much more efficient than Iverson Kobe is.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

The amount of trolling and lack of basketball knowledge in this thread is amazing. Now I see why a lot of posters don't get involved in the stupidity that goes on around here. We have seen these threads before, the same ones pop up every 2-3 weeks and it gets old.
And it's not even about not accepting that different people like/dislike different players, it's the fact that some people are just mentally challenged.


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Jordan played those years. Why pretend he didn't to benefit your silly argument? Are we going to dismiss the years Kobe was a bench rider?


----------



## Premier

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Uhh, how about comparing them through the same age rather than comparing Kobe through age 29 and Jordan through age 40? Jordan's TS% through age 29 was *59.4%*, including 4 consecutive seasons of 60+% TS (Jordan has 4 of only 10 30 ppg/60% TS seasons in NBA history, btw). Jordan's career high TS% is 61.4%. Kobe's career TS% is *55.7%* with a high of 58.0%, and this is despite averaging a far lower ppg volume than Jordan for most of those years. In case you can't do the math, there's a *significant* difference there.


To be fair, you're data is slightly wrong. From 21 through 29, Jordan scored 21,541 points off 6,025 free-throw attempts and 15,647 field-goal attempts, for a remarkable TS% 58.862. Kobe, meanwhile, from 21 through 29, scored 16,450 points off 5,788 free-throw attempts and 14,336 field-goal attempts, for a less impressive yet still excellent TS% of 55.868. Jordan's scoring efficiency in the earlier half of his career was simply brilliant. For what it's worth (while I have the data in front of me), Jordan did this in 667 games (25,842 minutes) and Kobe did this in 666 games (26,517 minutes). 



> And TS% is inflated by excessive FT's for perimeter players the last few years anyway. Which is why Kobe fans love TS%, mind you. Give Kobe the 7-8 FTA/gm he's actually deserved the last few years based on his playing style (80% of his attempts are jumpers) rather than the 10 FTA he's averaged and tell me what his TS% is then.


This is totally subjective. Again, for what it's worth, Jordan averaged 9.326 free-throw attempts per forty and 9.033 per game during these years and Kobe averaged 8.731 free-throw attempts per forty and 8.691 per game during his respective nine years. To say whether either player deserved as many as they got is a completely different issue. Pace plays a factor here. While Jordan's '85-'93 Bulls were among the slowest teams in the league in terms of possessions, they still played at a faster pace than Kobe's Lakers during the last nine years. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that due to the higher pace among other important factors as well, Jordan was able to get to the line more often.


----------



## duncan2k5

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



King George said:


> Cavs went 7 with LeBron shooting like 2 percent from the floor. Lebron sure did carry that team.


he sure did. he carried them, especially in close out games. kobe was more a hinderence than anything...shooting half-court threes and bricking jumper after jumper. his supposed advantage over lebron in jumpshooting is vastly overrated...just like his career...


----------



## Premier

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



duncan2k5 said:


> he sure did. he carried them, especially in close out games. kobe was more a hinderence than anything...shooting half-court threes and bricking jumper after jumper. his supposed advantage over lebron in jumpshooting is vastly overrated...just like his career...


Personally, and this is an aside that I do not care to further discuss, I feel it's far easier to defend a team led by LeBron offensively than it is with Kobe, all other things being equal. LeBron's perimeter jump shot (say anything outside of eighteen feet) is still a disadvantage relative to the other areas of his amazing offensive repertoire. Therefore, as San Antonio and Boston did these past two years, it's okay to allow him some space away from the basket because it's not likely that he'll beat you with his jumper. Kobe, meanwhile, is more of a complete offensive player, once again, in my opinion. This isn't really a complex nor an original observation, I'm sure you can tell. LeBron's explosiveness and finishing ability is superb, but his outside jump shot isn't there yet.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Premier said:


> To be fair, you're data is slightly wrong. From 21 through 29, Jordan scored 21,541 points off 6,025 free-throw attempts and 15,647 field-goal attempts, for a remarkable TS% 58.862. Kobe, meanwhile, from 21 through 29, scored 16,450 points off 5,788 free-throw attempts and 14,336 field-goal attempts, for a less impressive yet still excellent TS% of 55.868. Jordan's scoring efficiency in the earlier half of his career was simply brilliant. For what it's worth (while I have the data in front of me), Jordan did this in 667 games (25,842 minutes) and Kobe did this in 666 games (26,517 minutes).


My numbers aren't incorrect at all. You're including the 1993 season for Jordan, but he was basically 30 even to start that season (29 years and 9 months old). I used up through the 1992 season, at the end of which he was 29 years and 3 months old.



> This is totally subjective. Again, for what it's worth, Jordan averaged 9.326 free-throw attempts per forty and 9.033 per game during these years and Kobe averaged 8.731 free-throw attempts per forty and 8.691 per game during his respective nine years. To say whether either player deserved as many as they got is a completely different issue. Pace plays a factor here. While Jordan's '85-'93 Bulls were among the slowest teams in the league in terms of possessions, they still played at a faster pace than Kobe's Lakers during the last nine years. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that due to the higher pace among other important factors as well, Jordan was able to get to the line more often.


It's not subjective at all. I'll elaborate later.


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> lebron IS better than kobe........
> 
> there is no denying that. watch them play.
> 
> the cavs almost took out the celtics in 7 games, in a close game 7.....
> 
> give Lebron gasol and odom, oh boy.


i never pay attention to your posts but im sure you just say that because you like jordan
and kobe is the closest thing to him (if not better) skills wise and you dislike him because of it

and lebron? lebron just dunks ......
eace:


----------



## Cap

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Premier said:


> This is totally subjective. Again, for what it's worth, Jordan averaged 9.326 free-throw attempts per forty and 9.033 per game during these years and Kobe averaged 8.731 free-throw attempts per forty and 8.691 per game during his respective nine years. To say whether either player deserved as many as they got is a completely different issue. Pace plays a factor here. While Jordan's '85-'93 Bulls were among the slowest teams in the league in terms of possessions, they still played at a faster pace than Kobe's Lakers during the last nine years. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that due to the higher pace among other important factors as well, Jordan was able to get to the line more often.


Indeed, subjective in the extreme. Though to be fair, FTA's have gone up in a statistically significant way the last few seasons. Of course, the quality of perimeter players has also gone up, particularly in terms of athletic gifts (LeBron, Wade, Melo, etc.), so the comparison to FTA's before the handchecking rule alterations isn't comparing apples to apples since we haven't really seen this unique and numerous combination of talented/athletic elite perimeter players before. Then again, if one were really so inclined (and, frankly, severely biased) as to claim that FTA's over the last few seasons significantly skew comparisons to previous eras due to recent rule alterations, it would be pretty easy to point out that Jordan played by his own rules, with a league-wide consensus among players and non-MJ/Bulls fans that he essentially got ref favoritism unequaled by any other player.


----------



## Plastic Man

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



duncan2k5 said:


> he does that because you kobe is in his prime, you cant compare someone's whole career to another person who hasn't had the downfall of his career as yet...the IQ of kobe fans...never ceases to amaze...


Oh my, the irony.


----------



## someone

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



duncan2k5 said:


> he sure did. he carried them, especially in close out games. kobe was more a hinderence than anything...shooting half-court threes and bricking jumper after jumper. his supposed advantage over lebron in jumpshooting is vastly overrated...just like his career...


...


----------



## King George

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



duncan2k5 said:


> he sure did. he carried them, especially in close out games. kobe was more a hinderence than anything...shooting half-court threes and bricking jumper after jumper. his supposed advantage over lebron in jumpshooting is vastly overrated...just like his career...


It's funny that LeBron's 35% is superior to Kobe's 40%, but if someone says Kobe's 45% is better than Jordans 49% you have a hissy fit. The nonlogic you guys use is something else


----------



## duncan2k5

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

its also funny how lebron had 3 superd performances while carrying his team to the last minute of a game 7, while kobe had 1 superb game and got beat so bad in a game 6 that the celtics came out on the court from the halftime wearing their championship rings...

not to mention kobe had the better team...


not to mention kobe's "superIOR jumper" was nowhere to be found...in ANY of the finals he's been in...hmmm...funny how an advantage is realy...NOT an advantage...


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



duncan2k5 said:


> its also funny how lebron had 3 superd performances while carrying his team to the last minute of a game 7, while kobe had 1 superb game and got beat so bad in a game 6 that the celtics came out on the court from the halftime wearing their championship rings...
> 
> not to mention kobe had the better team...
> 
> 
> not to mention kobe's "superIOR jumper" was nowhere to be found...in ANY of the finals he's been in...hmmm...funny how an advantage is realy...NOT an advantage...


It's funny how you say the Lakers had the better team, when the better team clearly won, not only that but then you talk about how HE got beat so bad, what happened to the team you first mentioned? So it goes from a team game to an individual game.
Another funny thing is the Cavs winning 2 games in which Lebron had terrible performances, there goes that team thing again, hmmm.
And I'm not saying Lebron had a better team, just that his team saved his butt in a couple of games. It's a team game just in case yo don't get my point, just like R.Allen being asleep that Cavs series.
Then remember that .111% game 1 fg performance by Lebron?
It's clear that you like to make a fool out of yourself every-time you post, but I will ask one thing to you though, who and whom took out the Spurs with ease? The defending champs took it like champs if you know what I mean.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



duncan2k5 said:


> its also funny how lebron had 3 superd performances while carrying his team to the last minute of a game 7, while kobe had 1 superb game and got beat so bad in a game 6 that the celtics came out on the court from the halftime wearing their championship rings...
> 
> *not to mention kobe had the better team...
> *
> 
> not to mention kobe's "superIOR jumper" was nowhere to be found...in ANY of the finals he's been in...hmmm...funny how an advantage is realy...NOT an advantage...


One more thing about that, we all knew coming into that series it was going to be Lakers offense vs. Boston defense, and we know who prevailed. It was the best of both conferences, it's not like they were playing the Spurs cause we already know Kobe has a better team.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

It's funny that Kobe's 0 Finals MVP's and 3 championships as a sidekick to a better player in Shaq is superior to Jordan's 6 Finals MVP's and 6 championships as his team's best player, but if someone says Jordan's championships are better than Kobe's you have a hissy fit. The nonlogic you guys use is something else


----------



## Cap

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



Undefeated82 said:


> One more thing about that, we all knew coming into that series it was going to be Lakers offense vs. Boston defense, and we know who prevailed. It was the best of both conferences, it's not like they were playing the Spurs cause we already know Kobe has a better team.


FYI, he's a well known self-admitted caricature, that's why you generally don't see posters here engaging in serious conversation with him. That includes the self-admitted Jordan jockers as well, for example the kiddie above, who are open about their trolldom. Best to ignore it and point and laugh, which most of the board does already anyhow.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Funny, that's what the rest of us posters think of you and the rest of the Kobe jockers, especially posters above like EHL, undefeated82 and KingGeorge most of all.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

I don't see why this goes for so long? Jordan said he would beat Kobe in a one on one. It's true, he would because he could stop/slow Kobe and Kobe wouldn't be able to do **** to stop/slow Jordan. It's as simple as that. Kobe's admitted that Jordan was better than him and now Jordan has said that he was a better player. I think the issue is settled.

As for the LBJ sidetrack, Celtics shut him down. However, the Celtics kinda slept walked through that series. Celtics shut Kobe down. However, the series was lost by, once again, Kobe's cast. They went from smooth to a bunch of bumbling fools! Missed dunks, missed layups, blown cover assignments, if they played like that in ANY of the prior 3 rounds, they wouldn't have won a game (except for Denver, they still would have been swept)


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



IceMan23and3 said:


> I don't see why this goes for so long? Jordan said he would beat Kobe in a one on one. It's true, he would because he could stop/slow Kobe and Kobe wouldn't be able to do **** to stop/slow Jordan. It's as simple as that. Kobe's admitted that Jordan was better than him and now Jordan has said that he was a better player. I think the issue is settled.


exactly

it was never an issue. it's just kobe jockers (they call us jordan jockers) keep bringing it up and wasting our time with it

it was never a discussion. kobe isnt even the best laker. shaq has a better legacy than kobe does, and SHAQ isn't even the best laker either.


----------



## Cap

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

*crickets*


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



ChrisRichards said:


> exactly
> 
> it was never an issue. it's just kobe jockers (they call us jordan jockers) keep bringing it up and wasting our time with it
> 
> it was never a discussion. kobe isnt even the best laker. shaq has a better legacy than kobe does, and SHAQ isn't even the best laker either.


The problem with you is reading comprehension, I never once said anything in regards to Kobe being a superior basketball player to Jordan. I agreed to him being able to beat Kobe one on one, just like Kobe could beat Jordan one on one. I like Kobe, I like Lebron and I liked Jordan. I don't bandwagon, nor do I troll around unless I'm dealing with a gimmick poster in which I do it for fun because it's pointless to be serious when you are dealing with clowns.
You take every opportunity possible to put down Kobe and I don't respect that and it's not because I like Kobe, it's because it's childish. 
People do not take you serious at all around here and that because your debating skills are comical. You wait for Jordan23 to post something then you become his hype man in the background, like "yeah boi!"
No one Laker fan around here has said Kobe is the best Laker ever so why bring it up, trolling anyone?
Kobe has done a lot for the fans/organization, a lot of stuff you don't see on the headlines. He's done charity, money raiser functions, visited make a wish kids and on top of that is one of the premier players in the world, but to a lot of people it's just his fake side. He's human so hes made mistakes but regardless he is probably the most hated/liked recognizable athlete today.
But we have idiots that like to run their mouth like they know the guy personally. Now do I have a problem with you disliking him? Of-course not, that is your choice, I don't care if anyone on this board hates him.
This is probably my last response to you and all other biased posters on this board. I'm slowly learning how to deal with these trolls/gimmick posters. They hated more when they don't pay attention to their attention seeking posts.
Go study the game more, try to learn about other players aside from Jordan, then maybe I will reply to you in the future, but for now it's a **** you and have a nice day. I'll take infraction for the guys who wont say it. Peace.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

*crickets*


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*

Someone make me a mod so I can close this thread. It's gone on for 16 pages too long.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

When Jordan retired in 1998, he was almost undisputed as the greatest player ever, and we thought it would be decades before someone challenged his throne, and some thought it would never happen. Ten years later, and LeBron has me convinced that he will pass Jordan. Kobe has long been the poster child for the next great one, but he just doesn't have the same physical gifts that Jordan did. LeBron has it all. He is a physical freak. He is a mental giant. He is a great team player who is unselfish and ruthless all at the same time. 

LeBron has a chance to do something truly special this year, which is win an MVP, lead his team to the best record, and lead his team to a title and win a finals MVP, all in the same year. That doesn't happen often. That is complete domination. 

The Lakers are the only thing standing in the way of him achieving that because they have an all-time great in Kobe with a stacked team behind him, and the greatest coach of all-time at the helm. Still, you get the feeling he can overcome them. And if not this year, then next year. And the year after, and for years to come. I believe it is inevitable. 

Who else has realized this?


----------



## Kuskid

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

This kind of creeped into my mind when someone on ESPN was talking about how he's going to be the first player since Scottie Pippen to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks for a season. And he's doing it on a team that's going to win somewhere between 65 and 67 games. Just absurd. He's still a couple rings away from being in the conversation for GOAT, but the way he's been playing (and the Cavs, too), that seems like almost an afterthought at this point.


----------



## Coatesvillain

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I came to this conclusion last year.

I think most people our age and older won't ever believe this because they were around either when Jordan was making his legacy, or when the league was working on growing his myth ever larger. So they got caught in the Jordan cloud to think no other player would ever be better. I think the last of that generation to be gripped by that hold are the kids in HS right now. If Lebron wins a championship this year we could see the middle school kids and up be the ones who start willingly accepting it.

He won't have to win six championships either, because the league will get behind him and push him as the best in a way to sell their product. Get enough people to believe and it'll be so.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Lets have this discussion after he wins 3 rings. Then we can talk better than Jordan. Because until then, he isn't, and wont be.


----------



## LamarButler

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

All the accomplishments will take care of themselves if he completes his game.

He just needs to work on his free throws and get them up to 80%, and become a "scientist on the block". The last part is what will really make him unstoppable. People always talk about him being 6'9, 270 lbs at SF. True or not, that size and strength should make him unstoppable in the post.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OneBadLT123 said:


> Lets have this discussion after he wins 3 rings. Then we can talk better than Jordan. Because until then, he isn't, and wont be.


No, let's discuss it now. People discussed Jordan as the best ever before he won a title, so let's be fair. By the time Jordan had won 3 titles, he was already considered the best ever. Everything after was just an exclaimation point. LeBron also hasn't lucked into a Scottie Pippen yet, which clearly figures into the title count.


----------



## Sliccat

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



LamarButler said:


> All the accomplishments will take care of themselves if he completes his game.
> 
> He just needs to work on his free throws and get them up to 80%, and become a "scientist on the block". The last part is what will really make him unstoppable. People always talk about him being 6'9, 270 lbs at SF. True or not, that size and strength should make him unstoppable in the post.


Definitely, it's his lack of post game and consistent jumper that keeps him from from Jordan right now. But realistically, he's already a better rebounder, and arguably a better passer. But Jordan was an unbelievable scorer.

Then again, LeBron has always had more of a team attitude than Jordan did early in his career, which accounts for a lot of the scoring disparity. That's what's always been remarkable about LeBron; he never had that "I'm going to outscore your whole team" attitude that Jordan, or even Kobe had.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> No, let's discuss it now. People discussed Jordan as the best ever before he won a title, so let's be fair. By the time Jordan had won 3 titles, he was already considered the best ever. Everything after was just an exclaimation point. LeBron also hasn't lucked into a Scottie Pippen yet, which clearly figures into the title count.


A lot of people forget this about Jordan.

As for someone like Kobe, he could never have surpassed Jordan, nor will he ever because his career overlaps with Jordan. 

With Lebron, I thought this a while ago, but with every season that passes it becomes more of a reality.

Also, he won't have to win 6 titles to pass MJ. If he continues to rack up accolades, the "first to," the MVPs, first teams and possibly defensive teams and a potential DPOY he should definitely vault himself into the conversation and even pass him.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sliccat said:


> Definitely, it's his lack of post game and consistent jumper that keeps him from from Jordan right now. But realistically, he's already a better rebounder, and arguably a better passer. But Jordan was an unbelievable scorer.
> 
> Then again, LeBron has always had more of a team attitude than Jordan did early in his career, which accounts for a lot of the scoring disparity. That's what's always been remarkable about LeBron; he never had that "I'm going to outscore your whole team" attitude that Jordan, or even Kobe had.


He may not have that mentality, but at the pace he's going he'll most certainly pass Jordan in points all time.


----------



## SamTheMan67

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

The crazy thing is he has been shooting 40% from 3 since the allstar break.. If he could sustain his 3pt shooting at 40% what the **** are you supposed to do to guard him? (Obv he won't sustain 40, but 35-38.. with his driving ability..)


----------



## croco

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



LamarButler said:


> All the accomplishments will take care of themselves if he completes his game.
> 
> He just needs to work on his free throws and get them up to 80%, and become a "scientist on the block". The last part is what will really make him unstoppable. People always talk about him being 6'9, 270 lbs at SF. True or not, that size and strength should make him unstoppable in the post.


He _is_ unstoppable.


----------



## Diable

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

He's accomplished a lot so far,but you have to remember that Jordan's prime encompassed his entire career with the Bulls.He did his thing for a very long time.Lebron has the pace right now,but he's got miles to go before he's home.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> No, let's discuss it now. *People discussed Jordan as the best ever before he won a title, so let's be fair.* By the time Jordan had won 3 titles, he was already considered the best ever. Everything after was just an exclaimation point. LeBron also hasn't lucked into a Scottie Pippen yet, which clearly figures into the title count.


Sorry, dude, but that didn't happen. Not when he was getting swept by he Celtics in the playoffs or not being able to pass the Pistons. No. Don't even think about it. 

Jordan started getting serious GOAT talk after he showed consistency. Consistency in getting great numbers, being a great two-way player and,most of all, winning.

Untill Lebron shows that kind of consistency, he will not be worthy of GOAT talk.
And yes, to win you need a good team, nad there's so much a great superstar can do by himself... But that's the way it goes.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> No, let's discuss it now. People discussed Jordan as the best ever before he won a title, so let's be fair. By the time Jordan had won 3 titles, he was already considered the best ever. Everything after was just an exclamation point. LeBron also hasn't lucked into a Scottie Pippen yet, which clearly figures into the title count.


Yeah people discussed him being the best, but he wasnt the best until he did win those titles. And even then, he was questioned weather he could lead a team. Being swept by the Celtics, couldn't get past the Pistons, barely beating the Cavs. He wasn't considered the best ever. 

To say now that Lebron will be is a pretty bold, yet premature statement. Because no matter how much people discussed Jordan being the best then, he wasnt. He wasnt better than Jabbar, Wilt, Russel or Magic. 

You can discuss all you want, but to say that he will be, nah. Not until its all said and done. Sorry.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

certainly after jordan won his 1st title he took away alot of the ammunition his detractors had from him. he certainly had his fans for goat at that point. by the time he won 3, he might have been consensus already. 

he certainly had played at a level few had ever seen before he won a title, and did so for 6 years. 

lebron will not necessarily need 6 titles, 6 finals mvp's, 5 mvp's and 10 scoring titles to pass jordan, because jordan didn't need all of that to become the consensus goat himself. but it will be difficult to win over the masses because of how jordan's overall resume compliments his actual level of play.


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I love todays age of ADHD where everything is the "best ever". Sorry buddy but Lebron is nowhere near the conversation of Jordan yet. He might have had the best career achievements before 25, but that's about it.

Little kids didn't get to see Jordan be great. You have to at least as old as me to truly appreciate Jordan's greatness. I barely remember Jordan's first title against my Lakers. I was like 7 or 8 at the time, and that was well into his career. Seriously no one younger than me can really say they saw MJ his whole prime, and def not his early career.

It seems all people see is a tarnished legacy thanks to his "comeback" with the Wizards and his lack of success with the Bobcats and Wizards in the front office too. Maybe even his brief baseball stint.

And speaking of the brief baseball stint. Think about what would have been if he had not skipped two years in his absolute prime. He would have had 8 straight titles! and 8 straight finals MVP's! He literally made all-time greats like Malone, Ewing, Barkley, DRobinson, and others cry. Jordan was the unquestioned leader of the dream team in 1992 which had the best collection of talent ever.

Is or was Lebron the best player on the 2008 dream team? Very debatable. I'd go with Wade myself.

Also Jordan was considered a great defender his whole career. Not a great-when-he-wants-to-be like Kobe, but just flat out great. As for Lebron's defense...I could score on him.

Give me 10 years, multiple titles, multiple MVP's, multiple finals MVP's, all defensive first teams, etc. then maybe we can begin to have this conversation.


----------



## De_dauntless

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

What Lebron will probably do is to pass Jordan maybe in the most points accumulated. That is in my opinion. The cat hasn’t even achieved near what Duncan, Shaq, Kobe and even Wade has accomplished so far. I have watched him this season closely, since he has been on almost every week. But you know what, give me Kobe anytime, I love Wade but every time Kobe has the ball I believe he will make something happen. Lebron doesn’t give the security that he will win the game for me. Sure Lebron has improved but damn he has a way to go before he can be surpassed Jordan in anything


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LeBron has a chance to be better, but he's not better than a Prime MJ right now. And of course one day someone can say player x may be better than LeBron, when they come out the gates exceeding expectations. Time will be the teacher of this lesson though, because it will take an entire career of brilliance to surpass MJ or be on equal footing with. 

Secondly why is it we get these kind of LeBron threads when he and his team have a great game ? 

If you believe this about LeBron fundamentally you should of been there all season, as he's been very much top 5 player in the league and as good of an MVP one can pick this season. That being said you never get these emotional love fest threads when LeBron plays horrible and get's beat by the same Celtics a few weeks ago. Essentially what I'm saying is let his career and body of work speak for it's self, at this point LeBron is still behind what MJ did offensively and defensively on the basketball court in calculating pure basketball skills, and of course Jordans resume and heroics that came with his resume dwarfs anything on LeBrons resume at this point.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> LeBron has a chance to be better, but he's not better than a Prime MJ right now. And of course one day someone can say player x may be better than LeBron, when they come out the gates exceeding expectations. Time will be the teacher of this lesson though, because it will take an entire career of brilliance to surpass MJ or be on equal footing with.
> 
> Secondly why is it we get these kind of LeBron threads when he and his team have a great game ?
> 
> If you believe this about LeBron fundamentally you should of been there all season, as he's been very much top 5 player in the league and as good of an MVP one can pick this season. That being said you never get these emotional love fest threads when LeBron plays horrible and get's beat by the same Celtics a few weeks ago. Essentially what I'm saying is let his career and body of work speak for it's self, at this point LeBron is still behind what MJ did offensively and defensively on the basketball court in calculating pure basketball skills, and of course Jordans resume and heroics that came with his resume dwarfs anything on LeBrons resume at this point.


^ Exactly, Jordan is the greatest (debatable) because what he did accomplish in his career. You cant change any of that. Lebrons career is still being written, for all we know this could be his peak and he could decline from now on. Not likely, but you never know.

But to say he will be? Nah he needs to get a lot done than one really good season in order to surpass him.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Secondly why is it we get these kind of LeBron threads when he and his team have a great game ?


Well we also see just as many threads bashing him when he sucks it up in a game. Just comes with the territory of being the biggest story in the league this year.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I already said this in 2007 or 2008

LeBron is the first player since Jordan to really give me the impression that he has a shot to challenge MJ.

no other player has impressed me like that


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lakeshows said:


> And speaking of the brief baseball stint. Think about what would have been if he had not skipped two years in his absolute prime. He would have had 8 straight titles! and 8 straight finals MVP's! He literally made all-time greats like Malone, Ewing, Barkley, DRobinson, and others cry. Jordan was the unquestioned leader of the dream team in 1992 which had the best collection of talent ever.


Yeah, MJ would have had 8 straight titles. Almost equaling the dynasty Celtics...

and it's true that a whole generation of superstars went ringless because of MJ. * I mean, you had Hall of Fame ALL TIME GREATEST PLAYERS complaining that MJ needs to retire so they can win a ring.*

Payton, Malone, all of them turned into ring chasers past their prime thanks to MJ lol. It's really a crime that Malone never got a ring. Payton is lucky his body is like Iron Man, he got to play longer and ride the HEAT to a ring.


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

there is no next jordan, no next wilt, bill russell, larry bird, magic johnson, etc. etc.....


these guys made their own name and their own legacy. I expect lebron to make his own mark and be his own player. Just as everybody else should


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> When Jordan retired in 1998, he was almost undisputed as the greatest player ever, and we thought it would be decades before someone challenged his throne, and some thought it would never happen. Ten years later, and LeBron has me convinced that he will pass Jordan. Kobe has long been the poster child for the next great one, but he just doesn't have the same physical gifts that Jordan did. LeBron has it all. He is a physical freak. He is a mental giant. He is a great team player who is unselfish and ruthless all at the same time.
> 
> LeBron has a chance to do something truly special this year, which is win an MVP, lead his team to the best record, and lead his team to a title and win a finals MVP, all in the same year. That doesn't happen often. That is complete domination.
> 
> The Lakers are the only thing standing in the way of him achieving that because they have an all-time great in Kobe with a stacked team behind him, and the greatest coach of all-time at the helm. Still, you get the feeling he can overcome them. And if not this year, then next year. And the year after, and for years to come. I believe it is inevitable.
> 
> Who else has realized this?



I've come to the realization that anyone who thinks Lebron will pass Jordan is a fool.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

He's not as good as a prime Jordan right now. So he'll have to improve. The interesting thing is, though, that Jordan barely improved beyond the age of 24. 

MJ brought similar offensive production to LeBron while also being one of the five greatest defensive perimeter players ever.


----------



## HB

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

But will he surpass Russell?


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Btw, who gives a **** about resumes? We're talking who will be the better player. I think we can all agree that the awards like MVP and DPOY are a joke, and that team success depends greatly on the quality of teammates and of the opposition, both of which are far outside of any individual player's control.

So if LeBron plays at a higher level than Jordan but for whatever reason only wins 1 MVP and 1 title, he will still be better than Jordan, regardless of their respective resumes.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



HB said:


> But will he surpass Russell?


No one can surpass Russell in my mind. He embodied everything right about being a team player, and a champion.


----------



## Diable

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Jordan added to his game every year.He became a better jumpshooter when he realized that he would need to reduce the physical punishment he was taking constantly driving to the rim.The numbers looked the same as he got older,but the way he got them was different and he probably wouldn't have lasted as long if he'd continued to mostly score on drives to the hoop.


Jordan relied less and less on his athleticism and more on his skills as he continued his career.Perhaps you'd say he got smarter rather than better.I suspect at some point Lebron shall have to change also,but right now he's not playing in the same era of bodyslam fouls that characterized the bad boy pistons and riley's knicks.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChosenFEW said:


> there is no next jordan, no next wilt, bill russell, larry bird, magic johnson, etc. etc.....
> 
> 
> these guys made their own name and their own legacy. I expect lebron to make his own mark and be his own player. Just as everybody else should


When he says pass Jordan he's saying will he become the GOAT?


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

One thing though

Jordan played against defenses that would put you on the ground...

whereas today, if you drive to the rim, any contact is a foul.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> One thing though
> 
> Jordan played against defenses that would put you on the ground...
> 
> whereas today, if you drive to the rim, any contact is a foul.


Very good point, defenses were much more physical and brutal in the past. Many plays that were blown as a personal foul would be an ejection today. Something that can not be found in any statistical formula. It's a reason a guy like Antonio Davis considers Rik Smitts a better player than Yao Ming, the era Smitts played in was night and day compared to the league today. And Antonio Davis had the pleasure of playing against both players. It's a reason why stat guy's can't really be taken seriously when you look at stats as your determining factor on whos the better player. Like in the Smitts Ming situation, Ming much better numbers across the board, Smitts the better player regardless of the stats. I'll take a very earnest blue collar warrior of the NBA's opinion over some nerd breaking down math formulas to try and replicate what players do between the lines.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> One thing though
> 
> Jordan played against defenses that would put you on the ground...
> 
> whereas today, if you drive to the rim, any contact is a foul.


So teams back then played at a higher rate offensively while playing much better defense? they must have been basketball gods!

Personally I think there were a few teams that played real physical teams, but day in, day out, they didn't play much more than we see today, if it's even more.

And for years teams have played Lebron very physically, but he's so strong where it almost doesn't even matter.

Lastly, it goes without saying that while people say Jordan faced tougher defenses, he benefitted greatly from calls when minimal contact was made against him.

I think Lebron would fare even BETTER then than he would now. Players back then weren't the physical specimens they are now. He'd pretty much have his way with almost every defender thrown his way.


----------



## Diable

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Actually there were only a couple of teams which practiced this sort of over the top physical play and that only lasted for about three or four years.As Jordan's popularity drove the league into the mainstream this sort of thing became more and more embarassing.It has absolutely nothing to do with the game of basketball and they got rid of it.Much of this rough play was inspired by the inability to contain Jordan by clean play and it was officiated out of the game by the middle of Jordan's career.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Very good point, defenses were much more physical and brutal in the past. Many plays that were blown as a personal foul would be an ejection today. Something that can not be found in any statistical formula. It's a reason a guy like Antonio Davis considers Rik Smitts a better player than Yao Ming, the era Smitts played in was night and day compared to the league today. And Antonio Davis had the pleasure of playing against both players. It's a reason why stat guy's can't really be taken seriously when you look at stats as your determining factor on whos the better player. Like in the Smitts Ming situation, Ming much better numbers across the board, Smitts the better player regardless of the stats. I'll take a very earnest blue collar warrior of the NBA's opinion over some nerd breaking down math formulas to try and replicate what players do between the lines.


Meh. A lot of players favor their particular playing time than current players. So while they played, I take what they say at face value. Role players in today's game may say something similar about Yao Ming compared to his future counterpart. 

I also think Yao would fare well in Smits era.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Diable said:


> Actually there were only a couple of teams which practiced this sort of over the top physical play and that only lasted for about three or four years.As Jordan's popularity drove the league into the mainstream this sort of thing became more and more embarassing.It has absolutely nothing to do with the game of basketball and they got rid of it.Much of this rough play was inspired by the inability to contain Jordan by clean play and it was officiated out of the game by the middle of Jordan's career.


:basket:


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Tragedy said:


> Meh. A lot of players favor their particular playing time than current players. So while they played, I take what they say at face value. Role players in today's game may say something similar about Yao Ming compared to his future counterpart.
> 
> I also think Yao would fare well in Smits era.


Great answer Meh?

I'm sure your attitude would be slightly different, just like the guy' (Rick Kamla) with all the stat data, and college degree was when debating Antonio Davis, Antonio put Kamla in check much like I'm sure he would you. Don't play yourself out, and if you know anything about Antonio Davis he's not a dude that goes around hyping himself or the era he played in. He simply points out the difference in rules, and the athletes he played against. He has a solid case IMO that the centers from the late 80s through the late 90s was a whole different animal than we have now, and the rules enabled defenses, and physical play to make it much more difficult for the offensive player to gain an advantage....

Yao never had to face Smitts, Eaton, Hakeem olajuwon, D Robinson, Ewing, ZO (prime), Deke(prime), and prime Shaq. That was the NBA in the late 80s-through the majority the 90s. Very very different rules and hall of fame centers. I seriously doubt Yao would have the same impact, he would very very very good no doubt, but he wouldn't of been as good as Rik Smitts. (antonio davis opinion) And I actually agree, and can see why. Smitt was a better defender, and much more clutch than Ming. To name a few.

However your opinion isn't nearly as valuable as NBA players that have faced these guys in between the lines on the hardwood. Your entitled to your own opinion, as much as I am, however I rely more on basketball players who have played against players across generation lines opinions much much more than just somebody who watches league pass on their couch.

I believe Jeff Van Gundy said it best, the media shouldn't be voting on awards. It should be players and coaches because they have a lot more knowledge on what it takes out their in the game. Something guys who went to college for writing don't have the knowledge of. Just like pro basketball players shouldn't be voting on who's the better writers are that work in the media.

Like I said I'll take any guy's who's willing to put his reputation on the line against a "media stats guy" who played against Ming, and Smitts, and who isn't bagging on Ming at all. Actually he said he's a solid player, but he's not better than Smitts. He played against both, I'll take Antonio Davis's account over anything some writer or statistical wiz can come up with.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I can't say I disagree with you Patchwork. I'm not sure about "passing" him, that's really tough and he's clearly not as good as defender or shooter, and nowhere near the same post game. But he's a significantly better passer, better in the open court, and a better rebounder of course. LeBron's also doing this against better defenses and athletes, making it all the more impressive. 

Overall, I agree that the only thing standing in the way of his greatness, besides his team staying intact, is the Lakers.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Cap said:


> I can't say I disagree with you Patchwork. I'm not sure about "passing" him, that's really tough and he's clearly not as good as defender or shooter, and nowhere near the same post game. But he's a significantly better passer, better in the open court, and a better rebounder of course. LeBron's also doing this against better defenses and athletes, making it all the more impressive.
> 
> Overall, I agree that the only thing standing in the way of his greatness, besides his team staying intact, is the Lakers.


The guy I posted on up above Antonio Davis would have no issues meeting LBJ at the rim or in the paint, and he's just one of many studs out of the 90s, plus the fact defensives have had certain tools like hand checking taken out of their tool bag to use against great offensive players, i find it very interesting you think the offensive players have it more difficult now, I hope your not talking about zone defense ? Because it's played by far less than any defense in the NBA, and most of the great players that went to college had the zone mastered by and large before they ever enter the NBA. If anything defenses have been watered down, rules have been tweaked to give the offensive player an advantage, and the amount of physical contact has been minimized by the league. I'm not sure why you would be more impressed by that.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Very good point, defenses were much more physical and brutal in the past. Many plays that were blown as a personal foul would be an ejection today. Something that can not be found in any statistical formula. It's a reason a guy like Antonio Davis considers Rik Smitts a better player than Yao Ming, the era Smitts played in was night and day compared to the league today. And Antonio Davis had the pleasure of playing against both players. It's a reason why stat guy's can't really be taken seriously when you look at stats as your determining factor on whos the better player. Like in the Smitts Ming situation, Ming much better numbers across the board, Smitts the better player regardless of the stats. I'll take a very earnest blue collar warrior of the NBA's opinion over some nerd breaking down math formulas to try and replicate what players do between the lines.


come the **** on man.

and it's really no surprise that antonio davis would say something like that. he played with rik smits for the first 6 years of his career. but the fact of the matter is that yao in his rookie season was better than smits ever was in his entire career.


----------



## jokeaward

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

He almost lucked into a Scottie Pippen stand-in, but they were one pick short and took Luke Jackson. Boozer also left.

Let's not go prostrate over the King just yet. Wilt is more of a freak; he never fouled out and once led the league in assists. The best player ever by career is Kareem because his dominance kept going. He was there in 70 and 78 and 88, he could have been great in 1968 like LBJ or Howard (and he could hit free throws at 70%). Lebron has been good in the playoffs but Jordan got better and shredded great teams.

There are other physical freaks... Garnett played 82 games and 40 minutes since Clinton was in and played point guard at times... Dominique and Thompson could sky like Jordan or Lebron. Wilt was an overall athlete and played complete games. But the NBA does have a pretty fair playoff system and if we're at this level it does enter in... Lebron has a proud record so far but not sterling.

James will have Mays-like argument for best ever (Willie vs. Babe or Cobb), certainly able to do it all especially if he can shoot better.


----------



## t1no

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I don't understand why people keep saying "Lebron James is the better rebounder", by looking at statistics?
He's bigger and a forward, he better average more rebounds than guards.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> come the **** on man.


Another well thought out intelligent post. Kudos to you.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Another well thought out intelligent post. Kudos to you.


damn it! quote my whole post if you're going to quote any of it.

of course, i know enough to realize that i was editing my post while you were writing the reply.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> damn it! quote my whole post if you're going to quote any of it.
> 
> of course, i know enough to realize that i was editing my post while you were writing the reply.


You can believe all you want buddy, but as an avid fan of the Pacers back in the day, I watched enough smitts to know he was better than Ming. Basketball is much more natural for Smitts coming in the NBA has been for Ming, but Ming is getting better every year, and I give him his props for that, but Smitts advantages in my eyes are defense (a huge part of basketball, just ask the Cavs fans on this board) way more clutch than ming offensively just to name a few. But you can' believe what you want, I respect that, even though I disagree. I'll have to share the same sentiment with the NBA pro that actually guarded Ming, and Smitts on this one. And you can keep calling Antonio Davis biased all you want, but I think he would make you shut your mouth if you had this debate with him face to face, because Davis isn't saying Smitts > Ming for anything other than what he went through when battling them on the hardwood. Something you will obviously never understand, and continue to under sell. So point fingers, make assumptions on Davis's behalf, but anyone that knows anything about that guy's life off the court, knows he's not a guy to blow smoke up your *** to boast any player. Dude is a modest family man, hard workers, and I would suggest you do some research before using baseless assumptions about someone as a practical argument on your behalf.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I'm a Pacers fan too 23AJ, have been for many, many years. And no, Smitts was never a better than Yao. I think he was underrated, but no, just because AD said it and you think hes some unlying family man doesn't make it true.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> The guy I posted on up above Antonio Davis would have no issues meeting LBJ at the rim or in the paint, and he's just one of many studs out of the 90s, plus the fact defensives have had certain tools like hand checking taken out of their tool bag to use against great offensive players, i find it very interesting you think the offensive players have it more difficult now, I hope your not talking about zone defense ? Because it's played by far less than any defense in the NBA, and most of the great players that went to college had the zone mastered by and large before they ever enter the NBA. If anything defenses have been watered down, rules have been tweaked to give the offensive player an advantage, and the amount of physical contact has been minimized by the league. I'm not sure why you would be more impressed by that.


Because anyone who seriously believes defenses were tougher defensively in the 90's suffers from glorification of an era that never existed. The fact that there were better C's doesn't negate the clearly superior defensive schemes and, yes, zone, which is used either wholly or indirectly (box and one) far more frequently than it was before it was legalized in 02, especially doubling off the ball. Your contention says nothing about that reality, and ignores the fact that players are significantly stronger nowadays than they used to be.

Flagrants, techs, etc. were also around in the 90's. Look it up.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> You can believe all you want buddy, but as an avid fan of the Pacers back in the day, I watched enough smitts to know he was better than Ming.


Please just stop. Now.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> I already said this in 2007 or 2008
> 
> LeBron is the first player since Jordan to really give me the impression that he has a shot to challenge MJ.
> 
> no other player has impressed me like that


Not even Harold Minor?


I kid, I kid


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

*23AJ* -- you cannot be serious.

The rules were different for centers back then? Of course they were different! No zone defenses! You couldn't double a guy off the ball! How do you think 80% of teams are playing Yao these days? They front him with the guy behind waiting for the lob. This wasn't allowed when Rik Smits was playing.

While perimeter play has become less physical, if anything post play has become more physical. 

Yao may never have played against Olajuwon (who owned Smits), but he has played extremely well against Duncan, who played well against Shaq, who played well against Olajuwon (and who also destroyed Smits).

And anyway -- Rik Smits of all players? Seriously? When did Smits ever draw the kind of defensive attention or score as much or create the kinds of looks Yao does for his teammates on a regular basis? Defense? He was clearly a worse defender than Yao is. 

I love how you bring up JVG here. Van Gundy would be the first guy to tell you that Yao is better than Smits. 

Also, not expecting retired players to talk up the competition they faced or the teammates they played with is incredibly naive. They all do it -- family men and criminals. Retired NBA players are basically a font of ignorance and bias when it comes to evaluating players historically.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> Yeah, MJ would have *had 8 straight* titles. Almost equaling the dynasty Celtics...
> 
> and it's true that a whole generation of superstars went ringless because of MJ. I mean, you had Hall of Fame ALL TIME GREATEST PLAYERS complaining that MJ needs to retire so they can win a ring.
> 
> Payton, Malone, all of them turned into ring chasers past their prime thanks to MJ lol. It's really a crime that Malone never got a ring. Payton is lucky his body is like Iron Man, he got to play longer and ride the HEAT to a ring.


7 total, not 8 straight. He played in the playoffs in 95 and lost.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

too many key players are injured in the west now.

If Cavs can't win this year, they will not win anything the next 3 years.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



R-Star said:


> I'm a Pacers fan too 23AJ, have been for many, many years. And no, Smitts was never a better than Yao. I think he was underrated, but no, just because AD said it and you think hes some unlying family man doesn't make it true.


Like I mentioned earlier, to the poster I was directly responding to, your entitled to your opinion. But I respectively disagree, Smitts could run off Larry Bird shooting a 3 point shot, and get back to guard the center. Ming ? No not even close, he's to slow, Smitts had much more lateral quickness to pull that off. I'm sure most people here didn't watch the Dutchmen play in his prime. Secondly Ming never played against the quality of bigs that Smitts did. So we will just have to agree to disagree. I'll take the Dutchmen over Ming at this point in Yao's career. Plus I would say Smitts has been the less injury prone player during his prime than Ming has been.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Cap said:


> Because anyone who seriously believes defenses were tougher defensively in the 90's suffers from glorification of an era that never existed. The fact that there were better C's doesn't negate the clearly superior defensive schemes and, yes, zone, which is used either wholly or indirectly (box and one) far more frequently than it was before it was legalized in 02, especially doubling off the ball. Your contention says nothing about that reality, and ignores the fact that players are significantly stronger nowadays than they used to be.
> 
> Flagrants, techs, etc. were also around in the 90's. Look it up.


If you think for a second, a defensive scheme makes an era better, it's truly only as good as the team implementing it. The merit is on the team as much as it is the design. Many of those great defensive teams of the late 80s and early 90s would be as easily on par with anything today. Don't under sell the value of the players and talents. Because there are several coaches who preaches defense, but if the players don't buy into it and follow the design it doesn't even matter. 

However physical defense has been minimized by the league based on them taking out hand checking rules alone. A defender has a much better fighting chance when guarding a player if they use their hands to interrupt and stop their first initial move. Now a defender is at the talent of the offensive players first move/strike, and the defender has to do their best to recover. This is really simple stuff, and has less to do with anyone glamorizing any era, if defense was played today with the physical brutal slams that once was part of the defensive force in the NBA, I wouldn't be at odds. So please don't assume anything about why I believe what I do. You may disagree, hey I'm cool with that, but don't act like an elitist internet dweeb that can't handle the opinion's of other basketball fans' that are fundamentally and philosophically different than your own point of view.

I'd imagine you and Coach Mike D'Antonio would be at odds at how important defense is in todays NBA.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> One thing though
> 
> Jordan played against defenses that would put you on the ground...
> 
> whereas today, if you drive to the rim, any contact is a foul.


Who would be putting him on the ground if you were to stick him in a time machine and transport him back 20 years? Seriously, he's more massive than guys like Rick Mahorn (the creme de la goon) were. If a 240lb PF tries decking him the laws of physics predict that he's going to be the guy that ends up in the third row.

Also, as a note, lets not go overboard with the "eight straight titles" nonsense. Fact is that Houston most certainly could have won those titles anyway. Hakeem generally abused the Bulls (I mean, yes, he abused everyone in those days, but the Bulls post defenders were particularly hapless against him).


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*






A great video of why I consider defenses to be more brutal and difficult than the designs or schemes of any current defensive squad in the NBA today. 

Rules of todays game in the NBA tweaked encourages higher scoring, helps the offensive player to have a greater advantage over the defender.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> If you think for a second, a defensive scheme makes an era better, it's truly only as good as the team implementing it. The merit is on the team as much as it is the design. Many of those great defensive teams of the late 80s and early 90s would be as easily on par with anything today.


No they wouldn't.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> A great video of why I consider defenses to be more brutal and difficult than the designs or schemes of any current defensive squad in the NBA today.
> 
> Rules of todays game in the NBA tweaked encourages higher scoring, helps the offensive player to have a greater advantage over the defender.


That's a video of MJ against the most physical defensive team of all time. How about you post a video of Jordan against the Kings or Nuggets or Warriors?

Defensive schemes are more well thought-out and sophisticated and well-run these days, which counteracts the no-handcheck effect.


----------



## Diable

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Defenses were far less sophisticated in the 90's.Scouting was less detailed and videotape was less available.The rulechanges aren't designed to make it easier to score than it was in the 90's.To the contrary it's an effort to make the scoring closer to what it was in the 90's.They only changed the rules after defenses improved to the point where scoring became extremely difficult and the games were being played down into the 70's.


There's a video of Lebron farting on the cleveland bench going around the internet.Michael Jordan farted too,but it didn't end being analyzed in detail by the unwashed masses or by ten times the numbers of coaches and scouts as there were in the 90's.Now every player gets a dvd at halftime and it shows them whatever the coach wants them to see in great detail.When your opponent knows exactly what you're trying to do it's very difficult to do it.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Hakeem said:


> That's a video of MJ against the most physical defensive team of all time. How about you post a video of Jordan against the late 80's Kings or the early 90's Nuggets or Warriors?
> 
> Defensive schemes are more well thought-out and sophisticated and well-run these days, which counters the no-handcheck effect.


Those Nuggets kind of like the Knicks, and Warriors of the league today ? Nobody is discussing those teams when discussing defense for this era. Like I mentioned earlier a defensive scheme is only as good as the players on the court, those Knicks and Pistons were as good as anything we've seen in the NBA. However IMO the physical abuse is an advantage for a defense, why people don't understand that is interesting to me. I believe if you implement hand checking in todays game, and allow more physical fouls etc with out being called flagrants it would have an enormous impact on the majority of players in the game right now. And it would effect their ability to dominate games offensively, and have an impact on them mentally more so than the culture in the NBA right now.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> A great video of why I consider defenses to be more brutal and difficult than the designs or schemes of any current defensive squad in the NBA today.
> 
> Rules of todays game in the NBA tweaked encourages higher scoring, helps the offensive player to have a greater advantage over the defender.


The KNICKS and PISTONS. Two of how many teams?

Anyone who thinks a man who is 6'8 250 lbs who used to play high school FOOTBALL can't handle defenses thrown at him where the biggest guy on the team is STILL FIVE POUNDS LIGHTER THAN LEBRON must be smoking crack.

Look at the guys who would defend Lebron, on a Pistons team that beat the Bulls.

Mark Aguirre - 6'6 232 lbs
John Salley 6'11 230 lbs
Dennis Rodman 6'7 210lbs

Then you have Isiah and Dumars, 6'1 180 and 6'3 190

And finally, the "center" Bill Laimbeer 6'11 245.

So you have Lebron at 6'8 250, and you want to compare the tough defense Jordan faced, who was 6'6 195lbs.

The biggest guy is STILL 5lbs lighter, and Lebron is arguably BIGGER than Laimbeer when you consider muscle and fat %.

These guys would need a bat on the court to stop Lebron. They can rough him up, but he'll be at the line all day, and chances are everyone except for maybe Laimbeer would be diving out the way when he's coming down the lane.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Tragedy said:


> The KNICKS and PISTONS. Two of how many teams?
> 
> Anyone who thinks a man who is 6'8 250 lbs who used to play high school FOOTBALL can't handle defenses thrown at him where the biggest guy on the team is STILL FIVE POUNDS LIGHTER THAN LEBRON must be smoking crack.
> 
> Look at the guys who would defend Lebron, on a Pistons team that beat the Bulls.
> 
> Mark Aguirre - 6'6 232 lbs
> John Salley 6'11 230 lbs
> Dennis Rodman 6'7 210lbs
> 
> Then you have Isiah and Dumars, 6'1 180 and 6'3 190
> 
> And finally, the "center" Bill Laimbeer 6'11 245.
> 
> So you have Lebron at 6'8 250, and you want to compare the tough defense Jordan faced, who was 6'6 195lbs.
> 
> The biggest guy is STILL 5lbs lighter, and Lebron is arguably BIGGER than Laimbeer when you consider muscle and fat %.
> 
> These guys would need a bat on the court to stop Lebron. They can rough him up, but he'll be at the line all day, and chances are everyone except for maybe Laimbeer would be diving out the way when he's coming down the lane.


I disagree with your thoughts here, but it's a stimulating topic, I'm kind of glad it's bounced around like this, I find it you must not know how salty and nasty Sally, Rodman, Laimbeer, and Rick Mahorn were on the defensive end. I've seen LeBron cry to the ref's because of what the Wiz did to him one year in the playoffs the Pistons would be a rude awakening to LBJ.

Secondly please break down the Knicks now as well by players like you did the Pistons. I'm curious...


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Tragedy said:


> Look at the guys who would defend Lebron, on a Pistons team that beat the Bulls.
> 
> Mark Aguirre - 6'6 232 lbs
> John Salley 6'11 230 lbs
> Dennis Rodman 6'7 210lbs
> 
> Then you have Isiah and Dumars, 6'1 180 and 6'3 190
> 
> And finally, the "center" Bill Laimbeer 6'11 245.


You're using those guys' college weights. They were all actually significantly heavier.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I disagree with your thoughts here, but it's a stimulating topic, I'm kind of glad it's bounced around like this, I find it you must not know how salty and nasty Sally, Rodman, Laimbeer, and Rick Mahorn were on the defensive end. I've seen LeBron cry to the ref's because of what the Wiz did to him one year in the playoffs the Pistons would be a rude awakening to LBJ.
> 
> Secondly please break down the Knicks now as well by players like you did the Pistons. I'm curious...


That's simply the difference of what's allowed. If he was going into a game knowing what would be tolerated and what he can get, the mindset changes.

But if you want to go there.

Here are the forwards on the Wizards

Michael Ruffin 6'9 246
Caron Butler 6'7 217
Antawn Jamison 6'8 223
Jared Jeffries 6'11 230

And since I threw in Laimbeer

Brendan Haywood 7' 268.


And as for the Knicks only Anthony Mason is in Lebron's size range at 6'7 250. Oak is 6'8 225 and no one else is more than 242.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Tragedy said:


> Look at the guys who would defend Lebron, on a Pistons team that beat the Bulls.
> 
> Mark Aguirre - 6'6 232 lbs
> John Salley 6'11 230 lbs
> Dennis Rodman 6'7 210lbs
> 
> Then you have Isiah and Dumars, 6'1 180 and 6'3 190
> 
> And finally, the "center" Bill Laimbeer 6'11 245.


e.g. hypothetical stellar defensive side today, with listed weights:

PG: Rajon Rondo - 171 lb
SG: Ron Artest - 244 lb
SF: Shane Battier - 220 lb
PF: Tim Duncan - 248 lb
C: Dwight Howard - 240 lb

These guys seem to be just as emaciated as those Pistons.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Hakeem said:


> You're using those guys' college weights. They were all actually significantly heavier.


Regardless. My point is that 23AJ is comparing what the Pistons did with Jordan to what they could do with Lebron.

Jordan's playing weight back then was around 195, 200lbs maybe.

Compare that to Lebron who is more than 50 lbs heavier. 50 lbs of MUSCLE.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Tragedy said:


> And as for the Knicks only Anthony Mason is in Lebron's size range at 6'7 250. Oak is 6'8 225 and no one else is more than 242.


Again, college weights. Mason in 1994 was actually 260 (270 a few years later), and Oakley was 250. These guys held their own against Shaq.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Hakeem said:


> e.g. hypothetical stellar defensive side today, with listed weights:
> 
> PG: Rajon Rondo - 171 lb
> SG: Ron Artest - 244 lb
> SF: Shane Battier - 220 lb
> PF: Tim Duncan - 248 lb
> C: Dwight Howard - 240 lb
> 
> These guys seem to be just as emaciated as those Pistons.


At least I went to a site to get my info.

You're just making things up.

Dwight Howard is NOT 240 at the size he is. NBA.com has him at a more believable 265.

Ron Artest is 260 and he's solid

Duncan is 260.

Yeah, very emaciated indeed.

Battier is 220, and while a great defender he's not the kind of guy to knock someone around.

Anyways, to continue my point










Look at that man's back. The players of the late 80s and 90s were closer in build to Varejao than Lebron. Make no mistake, the man is powerful, and straight down to it he's going to be bigger than many of the guys who would be defending him.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Tragedy said:


> At least I went to a site to get my info.
> 
> You're just making things up.
> 
> Dwight Howard is NOT 240 at the size he is. NBA.com has him at a more believable 265.
> 
> Ron Artest is 260.
> 
> Duncan is 260.
> 
> Yeah, very emaciated indeed.


All old players are listed at college weights. To compare apples with apples, I went to basketball-reference.com, which also lists current players at their college weights. As you can see, everyone bulks up considerably after a few years in the league.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Hakeem said:


> Again, college weights. Mason in 1994 was actually 260 (270 a few years later), and Oakley was 250. These guys held their own against Shaq.


Shaq is playing in the post. He's not driving at them from the perimeter. Two different kinds of force. I do think the Knicks defense fares better against Lebron than the Pistons, who I don't see doing much damage.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Tragedy said:


> Shaq is playing in the post. He's not driving at them from the perimeter. Two different kinds of force.


So? If they can handle 330 lb Shaq backing them down in the post, you don't think they can handle LeBron on the perimeter? How does anyone guard LeBron today, anyway? 



> I do think the Knicks defense fares better against Lebron than the Pistons, who I don't see doing much damage.


So you're basically looking at how heavy the players were and deciding based on that? Have you seen a young Dennis Rodman play?


----------



## gi0rdun

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Different eras definitely change things because of rule changes and stuff but that should not detract from each player. In the 80s/90s NBA that Jordan played in, it was the strongest basketball league in the world. If you can be a lights out shooter (Anthony Morrow, Steve Novak) or be just an incredibly talented basketball player (AND1 mixtape tour people) but if you aren't strong, or fast, or tall enough, you don't really have a chance. You can be the best player on the best college team in basketball (Tyler Hansbrough) but you're not going to be making a lot of impact on the league.

If Michael Jordan was Super Mario Bros 3 and LeBron James was Super Mario World, which is the better game? Is Super Mario Bros 3 an inferior game since Super Mario World had better graphics and has a deeper storyline? No. They're both equally good games. Super Mario Bros was best in the NES era and Super Mario World was best in the SNES era. You can't just go and compare a NES game to a SNES game the same way you would compare a SNES game to a SNES game. Does your druggie friend have a better car than your grandpa if he drives some random 2005 Honda Civic and your Grandpa drove a top of the line Mercedes Benz in the 1940s? Nope.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

If players are so much stronger and teams better defensively today than they were in the '90s, how did Michael Jordan manage at the age of 38 to average 25 ppg for 50 games in 2002 until he got injured? 

This was when the league was just about at its slowest and most defense-oriented, with hand-checking allowed, moving screen rules more strictly enforced, and the league average defensive rating 4 pts per 100 possessions better than it is today. 

How was what Jordan did at 38 possible if defenses were so bad in 1990 that if LeBron played back then he would have gone to the line at will and annihilated every single team?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Tragedy said:


> That's simply the difference of what's allowed. If he was going into a game knowing what would be tolerated and what he can get, the mindset changes.
> 
> But if you want to go there.
> 
> Here are the forwards on the Wizards
> 
> Michael Ruffin 6'9 246
> Caron Butler 6'7 217
> Antawn Jamison 6'8 223
> Jared Jeffries 6'11 230
> 
> And since I threw in Laimbeer
> 
> Brendan Haywood 7' 268.
> 
> 
> And as for the Knicks only Anthony Mason is in Lebron's size range at 6'7 250. Oak is 6'8 225 and no one else is more than 242.


My friend the Pistons had a center in James Edwards who was every bit as big as Brendan Haywood, actually bigger. You forgot to mention him when talking about the Pistons, you also left out Rick Mahorn, the kind of guy you wouldn't want to upset, very nasty he was also pretty big in size.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

You don't get the name the Bad Boys because of nothing, these guy's routinely punched anyone in the face in route to two championships. For anybody that forgot...


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> One thing though
> 
> Jordan played against defenses that would put you on the ground...
> 
> whereas today, if you drive to the rim, any contact is a foul.


If you look at when defenses were really at a different level it was in the late 90/early 00's a bit after Jordans career. A simple way to track this is look at general offensive rating across the years: it took a huge dip in the late 90/early 00's and then has picked back up. Teams are just now back in the range (still lower) in terms of offensive efficieny to the late 80's/early 90's


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OneBadLT123 said:


> 7 total, not 8 straight. He played in the playoffs in 95 and lost.


he came back late in the season. he played in 95, but that was him joining a team late in the season. he didn't have his body in prime shape yet (baseball is much different conditioning) and he didn't have any of the regular pre-season etc...

If he had played continously, no breaks, he would have gotten it


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

also, don't forget *the 3 second defensive rule in the key*

In jordan's era, everyone was camping under the basket waiting for you.

in today's era, you can drive to the rim and catch the Center out of position easily because he has to be mindful of staying out of the key.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> he came back late in the season. he played in 95, but that was him joining a team late in the season. he didn't have his body in prime shape yet (baseball is much different conditioning) and he didn't have any of the regular pre-season etc...
> 
> If he had played continously, no breaks, he would have gotten it


His numbers were better in the '95 playoffs than they were at any point following in his career. The Bulls lost because they didn't have a power forward.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Let's get real simple and bare bones. You can half 5 guy's of any size you want, and I'll pick 5 guy's of the same size of the Pistons Bad Boys. Will play a pick up game in a park. Your team plays under the rules of the NBA and culture/style the game is played now. My team plays under the rules and culture/style of the NBA from 1986-1996.

I'm sure your team is going to be a lot more frustrated when my big C is camping in the paint and when you drive to the bucket punches you in the face every time you try to make a lay up. All the while being dogged, and followed while being held/hand checked by the Perimeter player. You may get to the stripe, but you will be less likely to continue to drive when you are being slammed.

While I'm on offense, I play against your intelligent new modern defensive schemes (you even have your dvd over there studying away all my finest offensive moves). But all the while you will be whistled for all the minimal contact in the paint and on the Perimeter when you attempt to lock me down on defense. 

Regardless who win's this game, there is no doubt the impact of being abused by physical contact will have more impact on your ability to dominate a game, and will test your mental fortitude. 

While the defense you played may leave me impressed with your schemes, but I will have a field day getting open shots off the high ball screen, pick and rolls, etc , or going to the foul line every time you barely brush or breath on me. 

So..

Anyone of you guys' tell me. And be honest with your selves, what defense do you want to face on the black top in your city against top flight athletes, that get to either play straight up, keep their hands off you, and minimal contact allowed, and no hand checking, and definitely no old school body slams. Or play against the old school defensive treatment.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Punched in the face every time you go into the paint eh? 
I love how people over rate just how physical basketball used to be.

You'd swear from hearing some people go on about it, centers used to be swinging around a mace in the paint while everyone else was flying around the court in a permanent drop kick stance. 2 man enter, 1 man leave.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



R-Star said:


> Punched in the face every time you go into the paint eh?
> I love how people over rate just how physical basketball used to be.
> 
> You'd swear from hearing some people go on about it, centers used to be swinging around a mace in the paint while everyone else was flying around the court in a permanent drop kick stance. 2 man enter, 1 man leave.


Obviously nobody get's punched in the face every time, I was over exaggerating, but that kind of contact was called a personal foul 9 times out 10 in the NBA, when today it's an ejection no questions asked. My point is to show case the major difference in culture of fouls/flagrant's and style of play. 

Of course that wouldn't happen all the time, but when it's called for it would happen, and it did happen a great deal more than it does today.

It was part of the culture of the NBA back in the past generations. Some coaches taught to be physical, and try to smash players driving to the paint. Some organizations have said their coaches told the big's they would be fined if smaller players were able to drive in for easy scores. Even the announcers speak on this in the clip I posted below. The NBA was a much different animal back then. 

I assumed posters here who are avid fans, that watched the NBA the past 20 years or more could read between the lines. Maybe I need to be more literal for everyone to see where I'm coming from. 

Also A good example is this -

When Kevin McHale Clotheslines Kurt Rambis, it was simply a personal foul, and the game went on. You don't have that kind of fight in the NBA right now, with it being whistled by the ref as a personal foul only.

Video evidence below, plus as I already mentioned about the hand checking rules being eliminated is obviously a greater advantage for the offensive player.

So I reiterate, you play under the new rules, and my guys play under the old rules.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Hakeem said:


> All old players are listed at college weights. To compare apples with apples, I went to basketball-reference.com, which also lists current players at their college weights. As you can see, everyone bulks up considerably after a few years in the league.


Yeah but Lebron is listed at his High School weight 

He's probably more like 6-9, 260-270.

Basically he's Karl Malone's body, with Magic Johnson's skills, and Michael Jordan's athleticism flying at you with the force of Charles Barkley.

Did you see today when Rondo AND Glen Davis tried to give a hard foul to Lebron, he just carried them both, and got his shot off anyhow.

If there's one player who would not be bothered by serious physical play it would be Lebron. And if you let him handcheck players on the other end of the floor, that would be another big advantage to hand to him.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> Yeah but Lebron is listed at his High School weight
> 
> He's probably more like 6-9, 260-270.
> 
> *Basically he's Karl Malone's body, with Magic Johnson's skills, and Michael Jordan's athleticism flying at you with the force of Charles Barkley.*
> 
> Did you see today when Rondo AND Glen Davis tried to give a hard foul to Lebron, he just carried them both, and got his shot off anyhow.
> 
> If there's one player who would not be bothered by serious physical play it would be Lebron. And if you let him handcheck players on the other end of the floor, that would be another big advantage to hand to him.



He sure as good **** isn't.

I mean hell, lets throw in Reggie Millers shooting while we're at it.

Lebron is amazing. He is not some freakish combination of all the best players to ever play though. Quit posting like an idiot.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Whenever you hear Shaq say "I come from the old school - I ain't allowing no layups"

that's what he means. it was the culture back in the 80s and 90s to put people on the ground if you tried to showoff and dunk or drive to the rim. 

nowadays you can't. 3 second rule has Center's and Power Forwards out of position and any hard foul is a flagrant, and any contact is a foul.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Obviously nobody get's punched in the face every time, I was over exaggerating, but that kind of contact was called a personal foul 9 times out 10 in the NBA, when today it's an ejection no questions asked. My point is to show case the major difference in culture of fouls/flagrant's and style of play.
> 
> Of course that wouldn't happen all the time, but when it's called for it would happen, and it did happen a great deal more than it does today.
> 
> It was part of the culture of the NBA back in the past generations. Some coaches taught to be physical, and try to smash players driving to the paint. Some organizations have said their coaches told the big's they would be fine if smaller players were able to drive in for easy scores. Even the announcers speak on this in the clip I posted below. The NBA was a much different animal back then.
> 
> I assumed posters here who are avid fans, that watched the NBA the past 20 years or more could read between the lines. Maybe I need to be more literal for everyone to see where I'm coming from.
> 
> Also A good example is this -
> 
> When Kevin McHale Clotheslines Kurt Rambis, it was simply a personal foul, and the game went on. You don't have that kind of fight in the NBA right now, with it being whistled by the ref as a personal foul only.
> 
> Video evidence below, plus as I already mentioned about the hand checking rules being eliminated is obviously a greater advantage for the offensive player.
> 
> So I reiterate, you play under the new rules, and my guys play under the old rules.


I don't disagree that it was a much tougher game back in the 80's and 90's. I just don't like it when people act as though guys were wearing brass knuckles when they played back then.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

In todays game/culture rules. Raja Bell pulls a McHale out of his bag of tricks on Kobe. Raja Bell get's ejected from the game for it, and is suspended the following game. 





 
McHael got a personal foul, and the great series of hard nosed physical basketball continued.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Obviously nobody get's punched in the face every time, I was over exaggerating, but that kind of contact was called a personal foul 9 times out 10 in the NBA, when today it's an ejection no questions asked. My point is to show case the major difference in culture of fouls/flagrant's and style of play.
> 
> Of course that wouldn't happen all the time, but when it's called for it would happen, and it did happen a great deal more than it does today.
> 
> It was part of the culture of the NBA back in the past generations. Some coaches taught to be physical, and try to smash players driving to the paint. Some organizations have said their coaches told the big's they would be fined if smaller players were able to drive in for easy scores. Even the announcers speak on this in the clip I posted below. The NBA was a much different animal back then.
> 
> I assumed posters here who are avid fans, that watched the NBA the past 20 years or more could read between the lines. Maybe I need to be more literal for everyone to see where I'm coming from.
> 
> Also A good example is this -
> 
> When Kevin McHale Clotheslines Kurt Rambis, it was simply a personal foul, and the game went on. You don't have that kind of fight in the NBA right now, with it being whistled by the ref as a personal foul only.
> 
> Video evidence below, plus as I already mentioned about the hand checking rules being eliminated is obviously a greater advantage for the offensive player.
> 
> So I reiterate, you play under the new rules, and my guys play under the old rules.


Remember when Bynum collapsed Gerald Wallace's lung?
If players today were allowed to do what the guys back then did, there would be dead bodies.

I remember Lebron once clotheslined DWade and it was just a personal foul. Heck, Zydrunas did it today against I think Rondo on the fast break, and they didn't do anything.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



R-Star said:


> I don't disagree that it was a much tougher game back in the 80's and 90's. I just don't like it when people act as though guys were wearing brass knuckles when they played back then.


Fair enough, but Also I think I found a great comparison, you have McHael and Bell doing the same things, McHael get's a personal foul, and Raja get's ejected from a game, and a one game suspension afterwards.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> Remember when Bynum collapsed Gerald Wallace's lung?
> If players today were allowed to do what the guys back then did, there would be dead bodies.
> 
> I remember Lebron once clotheslined DWade and it was just a personal foul. Heck, Zydrunas did it today against I think Rondo on the fast break, and they didn't do anything.


I knew someone was going to say something like that, but that's a bogus argument, plenty of guy's were severely injured in the old days. The difference is the NBA teams/organizations were not trying to protect their players like they are now. Ask Rudy Tomjanovich, Michael Jordan, Kurt Rambis, etc players and you can find a list of players who have been hurt very bad in the past. The league is protecting players now, and it has nothing to do with their size, it has everything to do with MONEY.

Raja and Kobe play in the game today, no different right ?????


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> McHael got a personal foul, and the great series of hard nosed physical basketball continued.


That was one instance in a entire decade, and people talked about at the time how weird it was that he never got ejected. It was an anomaly.

In the '86 WCF, Olajuwon took a swing at Kupchak, missed, and was ejected. That was how it played out 99% of the time.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> Remember when Bynum collapsed Gerald Wallace's lung?
> If players today were allowed to do what the guys back then did, there would be dead bodies.
> 
> I remember Lebron once clotheslined DWade and it was just a personal foul. Heck, Zydrunas did it today against I think Rondo on the fast break, and they didn't do anything.


Show me the video, I doubt it was as vicious as the Bell and McHael clothes lines. They are the exact same plays pretty much.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



R-Star said:


> He sure as good **** isn't.
> 
> I mean hell, lets throw in Reggie Millers shooting while we're at it.
> 
> Lebron is amazing. He is not some freakish combination of all the best players to ever play though. Quit posting like an idiot.


I'll post like an idiot all I want, R-Star. Why don't you chill the **** out?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Hakeem said:


> That was one instance in a entire decade, and people talked about at the time how weird it was that he never got ejected. It was an anomaly.
> 
> In the '86 WCF, Olajuwon took a swing at Kupchak, missed, and was ejected. That was how it played out 99% of the time.


Not really, there is plenty more instances I can dig up for you if you like me to from the past that were hard fouls that would be considered flagrant 2's in todays game. A clothesline isn't a swing/punch though. It's technically a really hard and dangerous foul. It wasn't viewed the same back then as it is now. Hence the piece I put up showing McHaels foul and Bell's.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Dead bodies? From what? An elbow? A couple punches? Its strange how in the NBA there would be dead bodies, but in boxing and MMA everyone ends up ok at the end of the match for the most part. **** people try to overrate todays NBA like its being played by some sort of super human gods.

In short, no futuristxen, there wouldn't be any dead bodies. A couple guys would get a black eye or a broken nose, just like in the old days. Unless Lebron hit someone, in which case a second big bang would result, with the possibility of the complete and utter destruction of life as we know it, seeing as how hes Malone, Magic, Barkley, MJ, Jesus and Merlin all rolled up into one.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> Whenever you hear Shaq say "I come from the old school - I ain't allowing no layups"
> 
> that's what he means. it was the culture back in the 80s and 90s to put people on the ground if you tried to showoff and dunk or drive to the rim.
> 
> nowadays you can't. 3 second rule has Center's and Power Forwards out of position and any hard foul is a flagrant, and any contact is a foul.


please stop commenting on the defensive 3 second rule. you are completely wrong about it. before the defensive 3 second rule, all zone defense was illegal. the first violation was a warning, everything after that was free throws. now any defensive 3 seconds is a technical, but teams are allowed to play zones and it's perfectly legal to double players off the ball or rotate a big over to wait outside the paint to provide help instead of him being forced to follow his man around. the defensive 3 second rule allows centers and power forwards to legally provide much more help than they were able to in the past.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Anyone here old enough to remember the 1987 playoffs like me ?

EDIT - This is for Hakeem.

This happened in the 1987 playoffs, Parish go's off on Bill Laimbeer, no ejection came from it. The NBA was a different Animal, and if you truly didn't watch these games, and seasons you may not truly understand the full tilt of teams going for blood was like.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> This one is for you Rocket Man...


for me?

i'm not arguing with you. you're wrong in your argument, but this thread could go on for days and you'd still be wrong and posting the exact same things over and over.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*






I'll take Clyde's word for it over yours.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> for me?
> 
> i'm not arguing with you. you're wrong in your argument, but this thread could go on for days and you'd still be wrong and posting the exact same things over and over.


Hakeem/Rockets you could understand that mix up right ?

There is nothing wrong in me stating the NBA's defense gains a big advantage when physical contact, hand checking, etc is allowed. When fighting, bench clearing brawls, and teams out for blood is the culture. No doubt benefits the defense. If you believe that's wrong, than we simply agree to disagree.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Hakeem/Rockets you could understand that mix up right ?
> 
> There is nothing wrong in me stating the NBA's defense gains a big advantage when physical contact, hand checking, etc is allowed. When fighting, bench clearing brawls, and teams out for blood is the culture. No doubt benefits the defense. If you believe that's wrong, than we simply agree to disagree.


Fighting and bench clearing brawls? Again, why are we acting as though this was the norm in the 80's and 90's?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Hakeem/Rockets you could understand that mix up right ?
> 
> There is nothing wrong in me stating the NBA's defense gains a big advantage when physical contact, hand checking, etc is allowed. When fighting, bench clearing brawls, and teams out for blood is the culture. No doubt benefits the defense. If you believe that's wrong, than we simply agree to disagree.


you exaggerate the extent of which those things happened. yes, they happened but it wasn't an every game, every play type thing like you're making it out to be. and yes, teams would be more physical with lebron but if they dropped lebron with a clothesline, a guy like ben wallace would have them on the ground in a second.

and defense has evolved in it's own ways with zone's allowed and much more advanced scouting. to say that physical defense is better than the zone/advanced scouting isn't necessarily correct and there really isn't much of a way to test out which is better or more effective.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> I'll take Clyde's word for it over yours.


Awesome find Chris Richards, Clyde shares my exact same sentiments with the changing of culture in the NBA. No doubt a guy like Clyde Drexler would thrive in the NBA today with it's no hand checking rules, and ticky tack fouls being called. I like how Clyde put it, in the NBA today the perimeter player is the hunter, back in Clydes day the defender was the hunter.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

It's really annoying hearing that argument of "back in the day..." It's an argument created for nostalgia stake, you enjoyed basketball and how physical it was back in the 90's when compared to today so you make a biased assertion that defense was better; despite the fact that unbiased evidence shows otherwise. I don't care how much players were able to rape and pillage on the basketball court in the 90's. It didn't make there defenses any better then they are today, generally speaking. The fact of the matter is basketball has gotten progressively better, including defense. With each year players and coaches learn more tools to advance their defensive schemes, systems, and tactics. With more knowledge on how a star player like LeBron operates and runs the Cavs offense, opposing teams can can create entire defensive systems designed to putting him in positions where he is less likely to score or make a good pass; rather then creating schemes that revolve around bashing his head into the hardwood. Accepting this doesn't tarnish the reputations and accomplishments of past super stars so there's no need to argue so blindly about something when the evidence clearly shows otherwise.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> you exaggerate the extend of which those things happened. yes, they happened but it wasn't an every game, every play type thing like you're making it out to be. and yes, teams would be more physical with lebron but if they dropped lebron with a clothesline, a guy like ben wallace would have them on the ground in a second.
> 
> and defense has evolved in it's own ways with zone's allowed and much more advanced scouting. to say that physical defense is better than the zone/advanced scouting isn't necessarily correct and there really isn't much of a way to test out which is better or more effective.


I believe you are more mentally challenged from a physical fight than you are from throwing the ball out of double team or shooting a 3 ball in a zone defense. I believe the physical wars can definitely have more impact on your mental state, which in turn will effect your over all game. That's why I say the physical style of ball is a greater advantage for defenses, than a zone defense ever will be.

Have you ever been in a fight ? You usually are not thinking straight right when you come out of it, it's kind of like a blur, that's something this generation doesn't deal with because the league changed the rules, and the culture so much.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> This happened in the 1987 playoffs, Parish go's off on Bill Laimbeer, no ejection came from it. The NBA was a different Animal, and if you truly didn't watch these games, and seasons you may not truly understand the full tilt of teams going for blood was like.


You pretty much hand-picked the two most famous non-ejections ever. They allowed that because it was Laimbeer. Everyone hated Laimbeer.

1) There was no culture of violence. There were more fights because the NBA was more reluctant to hand out suspensions, but that's about it.
2) More fights / cheap shots didn't mean that defenses were better. Defenses are more sophisticated and better-prepared today than they were back then, which basically offsets the no-handcheck thing.


----------



## t1no

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I agree with Clyde when he said teams rarely play zone now. Most good defensive team rely on their man to man defense and help defense.
Also, ChrisRichards brought up a really good point, the three second rule. Offensive players from this era and from the 80's/90's only need a split second to have an advantage over the defense. That's the main reason why so many bigs get in foul trouble now and why players like Lebron or Wade make a living on the FT line, all it takes is a little bump.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> I'll take Clyde's word for it over yours.


nothing he said really had anything to do with anything i said.

before the defensive 3 second rule was in place, defensive 3 seconds still wasn't allowed. you weren't allowed to legally leave your man at all(other than to double whoever had the ball). your whole point was that defensive 3 seconds took big men out of the paint and put them out of position. it didn't. it made it much easier for big men to be in position to help on perimeter players.

clyde is right that teams rarely play a full zone. that doesn't mean that teams aren't using the rule to their advantage in ways they couldn't have before.

and again, of course drexler is going to say that his numbers would be better. it's a regular thing that older players will think their era of basketball was better than any other era(and that younger players will think the same about their era). that doesn't mean it's necessarily true.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I believe you are more mentally challenged from a physical fight than you are from throwing the ball out of double team or shooting a 3 ball in a zone defense. I believe the physical wars can definitely have more impact on your mental state, which in turn will effect your over all game. That's why I say the physical style of ball is a greater advantage for defenses, than a zone defense ever will be.
> 
> Have you ever been in a fight ? You usually are not thinking straight right when you come out of it, it's kind of like a blur, that's something this generation doesn't deal with because the league changed the rules, and the culture so much.


that's something you can say, but is it something you can prove?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



R-Star said:


> Fighting and bench clearing brawls? Again, why are we acting as though this was the norm in the 80's and 90's?


No disrespect, but 1.) you must be younger than me. And 2.) They did happen a lot dude, I'm not making it out to be every game, but there were a few years in the mid to late 80s, where the NBA had quite a few bench clearing brawls. As a young kid the NBA was not only entertaining because of the game, but it was also very entertaining because of the brawls, fist fights, and hard fouls that were committed a lot. I use to read all the old sports illustrated magazines as a kid man, and just loved all the juice on the fights, and physical NBA basketball, it was seriously intense back in the day.

Some vid's to demonstrate what I'm talking about when I say bench clearing brawls and etc -

I only looked for a minute, but found a couple, there were some really worse cold incidents that happened with the sixers back in the day that got real ugly with Dr. J and company. However I can't find any right now, when I do i'll post them.

Obviously the most famous one happened with the Pacers/Pistons not to many years ago, and I believe that probably had a lot to do with the league changing the rules, as the crowd was involved with that. I figured not to post it as we are all very familiar with it.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



t1no said:


> I agree with Clyde when he said teams rarely play zone now. Most good defensive team rely on their man to man defense and help defense.
> Also, ChrisRichards brought up a really good point, the three second rule. Offensive players from this era and from the 80's/90's only need a split second to have an advantage over the defense. That's the main reason why so many bigs get in foul trouble now and why players like Lebron or Wade make a living on the FT line, all it takes is a little bump.


chrisrichards was 100% wrong about the 3 second rule. defensive players were never allowed to be in the paint without guarding a player.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Well damn, the" Malice in the Palace" happened this era! That just proves that modern era basketball is full of jeff dahmers and shoe bombers.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

rocketeer, are you really trying to argue that the 3 second defensive rule is no big deal?

Centers and Power Forwards are OUT OF POSITION and have to be paranoid all game long about being in the lane. It is NOTHING like how it was in Jordan's day


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



t1no said:


> I agree with Clyde when he said teams rarely play zone now. Most good defensive team rely on their man to man defense and help defense.


Teams rarely play all out zone, but individual players playing off their man is very common.


----------



## t1no

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> your whole point was that defensive 3 seconds took big men out of the paint and put them out of position. it didn't. it made it much easier for big men to be in position to help on *perimeter players*.


Exactly, easier to help on perimeter players but harder to protect the paint.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> rocketeer, are you really trying to argue that the 3 second defensive rule is no big deal?
> 
> Centers and Power Forwards are OUT OF POSITION and have to be paranoid all game long about being in the lane. It is NOTHING like how it was in Jordan's day


do you have any idea what you're talking about? like any at all?

before the "defensive 3 second rule", defensive 3 seconds still wasn't allowed. there is no change there in the rules. what the rules do allow is for teams to play zone outside of the paint. the rules in the paint haven't changed at all except that instead of getting one warning before there were free throws, now teams just immediately get to shoot.

before the defensive 3 second rule, it didn't matter if it was dirk or ben wallace standing at the 3 point line, you had to guard them or could be called for illegal defense. now if ben wallace is camping at the 3 point line, his defender can camp right outside the paint on whichever side of the court the ball is on to be in position to help.


----------



## t1no

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Hakeem said:


> Teams rarely play all out zone, but individual players playing off their man is very common.


Yea help defense.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> chrisrichards was 100% wrong about the 3 second rule. defensive players were never allowed to be in the paint without guarding a player.


Dude it makes an enormous difference. I'm baffled that you are under the impression that it's not a significant advantage not to worry about being called for illegal defense constantly if you are in the paint more than 3 seconds. And 90 percent of the times offensive bigs are in the paint all game.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



t1no said:


> Exactly, easier to help on perimeter players but harder to protect the paint.


nope, not harder at all to protect the paint. a defensive player can stay in the paint all game long as long as he is guarding someone who is there as well.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> rocketeer, are you really trying to argue that the 3 second defensive rule is no big deal?


He's not saying it's no big deal. The point is that you don't seem to understand what was in place before the rule.

Before, there was no need for that rule because players had to stick to their man anyway. When the rules changed and zone defense became legal, they had to implement the 3 second rule to prevent guys from taking advantage of the changes.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> rocketeer, are you really trying to argue that the 3 second defensive rule is no big deal?
> 
> Centers and Power Forwards are OUT OF POSITION and have to be paranoid all game long about being in the lane. It is NOTHING like how it was in Jordan's day


Wow excellent video. Pretty much sums it all up right there.

Good night! that's match point.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Hakeem said:


> Teams rarely play all out zone, but individual players playing off their man is very common.


That's nothing new, though.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Dude it makes an enormous difference. I'm baffled that you are under the impression that it's not a significant advantage not to worry about being called for illegal defense constantly if you are in the paint more than 3 seconds. And 90 percent of the times offensive bigs are in the paint all game.


you can't be called for defensive 3 seconds if you are guarding someone. so you don't have to worry about **** if you're defending your man in the post. you only aren't allowed to be in the paint for 3 seconds if you aren't guarding anyone. and that has always been the rule. so it's no difference there.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> you can't be called for defensive 3 seconds if you are guarding someone. so you don't have to worry about **** if you're defending your man in the post. you only aren't allowed to be in the paint for 3 seconds if you aren't guarding anyone. and that has always been the rule. so it's no difference there.


Fair enough, just went back and read the rule, I hadn't visited it in a long time. Well it's apparent the video Chris Richards posted show's the lanes being opened up much more to greater effect in todays game. Something is going on, maybe we can get some of the high school coaches that post here comment why the paint was bottled up more in the past than it seems to be now. I'm sure there is some brilliant coaching behind that, yes even back in the day coaching, and defensive schemes were very good as well.

Section VIII-Defensive Three-Second Rule
a. The count starts when the offensive team is in control of the ball in the front-court.
b. Any defensive player, who is positioned in the 16-foot lane or the area extending 4 feet past the lane endline, must be actively guarding an opponent within three seconds. Actively guarding means being within arms length of an offensive player and in a guarding position.
c. Any defensive player may play any offensive player. The defenders may double-team any player.
d. The defensive three-second count is suspended when: (1) there is a field goal attempt, (2) there is a loss of team control, (3) the defender is actively guarding an opponent or (4) the defender completely clears the 16-foot lane.
e. If the defender is guarding the player with the ball, he may be located in the 16-foot lane. This defender is not required to be in an actively guarding/arms dis-tance position. If another defender actively guards the player with the ball, the original defender must actively guard an opponent or exit the 16-foot lane. Once the offensive player passes the ball, the defender must actively guard an opponent or exit the 16-foot lane.
PENALTY: A technical foul shall be assessed. The offensive team retains pos-session at the free throw line extended. The shot clock shall remain the same as when play was interrupted or reset to 14 seconds, whichever is greater


----------



## t1no

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I think people now underestimate how effective handchecking can be. Haslem on Dirk in the finals, he did a lot of handchecking and i have never seen Dirk have such a hard time scoring.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> That's nothing new, though.


Er, those are just double teams. Where are they sending help off the ball?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> No disrespect, but 1.) you must be younger than me. And 2.) They did happen a lot dude, I'm not making it out to be every game, but there were a few years in the mid to late 80s, where the NBA had quite a few bench clearing brawls. As a young kid the NBA was not only entertaining because of the game, but it was also very entertaining because of the brawls, fist fights, and hard fouls that were committed a lot. I use to read all the old sports illustrated magazines as a kid man, and just loved all the juice on the fights, and physical NBA basketball, it was seriously intense back in the day.
> 
> Some vid's to demonstrate what I'm talking about when I say bench clearing brawls and etc -
> 
> I only looked for a minute, but found a couple, there were some really worse cold incidents that happened with the sixers back in the day that got real ugly with Dr. J and company. However I can't find any right now, when I do i'll post them.
> 
> Obviously the most famous one happened with the Pacers/Pistons not to many years ago, and I believe that probably had a lot to do with the league changing the rules, as the crowd was involved with that. I figured not to post it as we are all very familiar with it.


I'm 26, and no, there weren't fist fights and brawls going on all the time like you're making it out to be. Was it rougher than it is now? Yes. But not by anywhere near as much as you're making it out to be.

I could type in _INTENSE CHESS BRAWL_ on youtube and something would probably come up. Posting a couple videos from a whole era does not prove this point you're trying to make. It was tougher, but lets quit with the whole "I was there, I watched it, you're too young. It was so physical." A)No, I'm not too young, and B)Guys like you overrate the physicality of 80's and early 90's basketball.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

edited - will find better video.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Section VIII-Defensive Three-Second Rule
> a. The count starts when the offensive team is in control of the ball in the front-court.
> b. Any defensive player, who is positioned in the 16-foot lane or the area extending 4 feet past the lane endline, must be actively guarding an opponent within three seconds. Actively guarding means being within arms length of an offensive player and in a guarding position.
> c. Any defensive player may play any offensive player. The defenders may double-team any player.
> d. The defensive three-second count is suspended when: (1) there is a field goal attempt, (2) there is a loss of team control, (3) the defender is actively guarding an opponent or (4) the defender completely clears the 16-foot lane.
> e. If the defender is guarding the player with the ball, he may be located in the 16-foot lane. This defender is not required to be in an actively guarding/arms dis-tance position. If another defender actively guards the player with the ball, the original defender must actively guard an opponent or exit the 16-foot lane. Once the offensive player passes the ball, the defender must actively guard an opponent or exit the 16-foot lane.
> PENALTY: A technical foul shall be assessed. The offensive team retains pos-session at the free throw line extended. The shot clock shall remain the same as when play was interrupted or reset to 14 seconds, whichever is greater


exactly. that's my entire point. you are allowed to be in the lane all you want as long as you are within arms length of an offensive player and in guarding position.

before there was the defensive 3 seconds rule, there was the illegal defense rule. under that rule any type of zone was illegal. every defensive player had to be guarding an offensive player. you still weren't allowed to just stand in the paint guarding no one. the rules governing defense in the paint have not changed at all. the defensive 3 seconds rule changed the rules governing the rest of the court, while leaving the one governing the paint the same.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



R-Star said:


> I'm 26, and no, there weren't fist fights and brawls going on all the time like you're making it out to be. Was it rougher than it is now? Yes. But not by anywhere near as much as you're making it out to be.
> 
> I could type in _INTENSE CHESS BRAWL_ on youtube and something would probably come up. Posting a couple videos from a whole era does not prove this point you're trying to make. It was tougher, but lets quit with the whole "I was there, I watched it, you're too young. It was so physical." A)No, I'm not too young, and B)Guys like you overrate the physicality of 80's and early 90's basketball.


Well you can believe that all you want. You had to be there, and you were clearly to young to have seen it for yourself. As I'm 6 years older than you are, I was lucky enough to see the blood spill. And just because It's not on the i-net doesn't mean it didn't happen. 

Your familiar with the 76ers/Celtics brawl right ? with Bird being held by a few Sixers and Dr. J using Birds face like a punching bag ? Probably don't believe that one either, but I can tell you it did happen.


----------



## t1no

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I agree with R-Star that it wasn't as rough as some people in this thread make it out to be, but there was a lot of bumping and slapping.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> in today's NBA, because of the 3 second rule...
> 
> you have the Center and the Power Forward standing on opposite sides of the key to avoid a violation. This means that the middle is wide open for a drive.
> 
> So if any perimeter player beats their man and drives to the rim, the C and the PF have to play matador with the bull coming to the rim. It's too late to get in his way, and if you try to do anything rough, you get called for a foul. So basically, the defender is left with the only option of jumping AT the player and try to block the shot while the offensive player is in forward motion and can lay it up, dunk it, or get called for a foul
> 
> This is a huge advantage.
> 
> If you beat your guy, the lane is open for a split second. In Jordan's day, it wasn't.


the rules that govern the paint today are no different than the rules that govern the paint in jordan's day.

the center and power forward are allowed to stand on either side of the paint today no matter where any offensive players are(and if there is an offensive player in or around the paint, the defender can be there as well). in jordan's day, the center and power forward were not allowed(by rule) to just stand on either side of the paint. they had to be wherever the man they were guarding was.

this will be the last time i explain the rule to you.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Well you can believe that all you want. You had to be there, and you were clearly to young to have seen it for yourself. As I'm 6 years older than you are, I was lucky enough to see the blood spill. And just because It's not on the i-net doesn't mean it didn't happen.
> 
> Your familiar with the 76ers/Celtics brawl right ? with Bird being held by a few Sixers and Dr. J using Birds face like a punching bag ? Probably don't believe that one either, but I can tell you it did happen.


Yep. And not too long ago I saw Ron Artest break a guys arm and then break his coaches jaw with a dragon punch. Theres no video's, but it happened. I saw the blood spill.

You're 6 years older than me, awesome. My dad can beat up your dad, its about as childish. It's not as though I'm a 13 year old.

And no, no one ever used Birds face like a punching bag. Got some shots? Sure. But you try to recreate it as though his face got speed bagged by a bunch of Sixers players. If you want to live in a different universe, thats fine. But its not reality.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> exactly. that's my entire point. you are allowed to be in the lane all you want as long as you are within arms length of an offensive player and in guarding position.


I don't think you understand this issue. 

*2001-02*
*• A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player.*

This wasn't the case in MJ's day. You could be in the lane, with or without closely guarding an offensive player for more than 3 seconds.

Do you understand now?

This causes the C and PF to be out of position and the lane to be unclogged. They have to play catch-up to the perimeter guy who just blew by his man.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Ah, now it's starting to make sense, these guys just don't know what the relationship between a real zone, like in college where there is no 3-second limitation, an NBA zone today that has a 3-seconds, and back in the 90's, before the 02 rule change, when zones were illegal including no doubling off the ball without first being within arms length of your man. Like how Rodman could routinely dump in a pass to Jordan in the post and watch as his man would be forced to guard a non-threat like Rodman on the perimeter. 

Haha, no wonder they're confused. :laugh:


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



> This wasn't the case in MJ's day. You could be in the lane, with or without closely guarding an offensive player.


lmao. Poor confused kiddies. This explains so much. :laugh:


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Fair enough, just went back and read the rule, I hadn't visited it in a long time. Well it's apparent the video Chris Richards posted show's the lanes being opened up much more to greater effect in todays game. Something is going on, maybe we can get some of the high school coaches that post here comment why the paint was bottled up more in the past than it seems to be now. I'm sure there is some brilliant coaching behind that, yes even back in the day coaching, and defensive schemes were very good as well.


first off, while the rules were what they were, the refs were still inconsistent with calling illegal defense. before they changed the rules, people complained frequently that the spurs basically were just playing zone with defenders camped on either side of the paint and weren't called for it because of a defensive reputation. so inconsistent enforcement of the rules could play some part.

better shooting also has to have had a huge effect. look at the year jordan won his first championship. john stockton was 20th in the league in 3 point percentage shooting 34.5%. there were 7 players total shooting over 40% from the 3 point line. compare that with this season. tim thomas is 20th in the league in 3 point percentage at 41.8%. there are 38 players shooting 40% or better from the 3 point line. obviously being much better shooters from the outside makes it much harder for a team to pack the paint.

and that's all of course assuming that it is in fact easier to get into the lane today than it was in the past.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> This wasn't the case in MJ's day. You could be in the lane, with or without closely guarding an offensive player.
> 
> Do you understand now?


yep. i understand completely. just like it isn't possible to rape your wife.


----------



## t1no

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Ahh it's good that we can all come to an agreement.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Oh, and the reason the NBA decided to implement these new rules is *because they wanted to 'speed the game up' and create more fastbreak and scoring opportunities.*

That right there tells you that it makes a big difference from MJ's era to LeBron's era.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> first off, while the rules were what they were, the refs were still inconsistent with calling illegal defense. before they changed the rules, people complained frequently that the spurs basically were just playing zone with defenders camped on either side of the paint and weren't called for it because of a defensive reputation. so inconsistent enforcement of the rules could play some part.
> 
> better shooting also has to have had a huge effect. look at the year jordan won his first championship. john stockton was 20th in the league in 3 point percentage shooting 34.5%. there were 7 players total shooting over 40% from the 3 point line. compare that with this season. tim thomas is 20th in the league in 3 point percentage at 41.8%. there are 38 players shooting 40% or better from the 3 point line. obviously being much better shooters from the outside makes it much harder for a team to pack the paint.
> 
> and that's all of course assuming that it is in fact easier to get into the lane today than it was in the past.


Very insightful, I appreciate it. I'm sure there is probably even more things that cause these certain situations. It might of been harder to shoot a 3 when the defender could hand check you. So many different situations. I would really hope some of the high school coaches that post here, could jump in and share their insights on the game, especially on this particular aspect.

Cheers rocket man!


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



> This wasn't the case in MJ's day. You could be in the lane, with or without closely guarding an offensive player for more than 3 seconds.


:laugh:


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



AJ said:


> I'm sure there is probably even more things that cause these certain situations. It might of been harder to shoot a 3 when the defender could hand check you.


Better 3pt shooters can be a partial consequence of playing the 2-3 zone and such. Some teams make up for their rebounding and interior defense deficiencies by playing the 2-3 zone and such.

Wide open shooters = better 

Since you couldn't play zone in MJ's day, then those 3 pt shooters aren't left wide open due to a zone


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> Better 3pt shooters can be a partial consequence of playing the 2-3 zone and such. Some teams make up for their rebounding and interior defense deficiencies by playing the 2-3 zone and such.
> 
> Wide open shooters = better
> 
> Since you couldn't play zone in MJ's day, then those 3 pt shooters aren't left wide open due to a zone


2-3 zones aren't allowed. they are basically the specific zone that is outlawed by the nba.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

It just keeps on getting better.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

For R-Star another bench clearing fight in the NBA. This one from 92, Cavs vs. Bulls. Go to about the 6:40 mark for the incident. Good times hard fouls, benches on the court, etc


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Cap said:


> It just keeps on getting better.


Is your only point to try and be smug ? I mean seriously add something to the thread, just stop acting like your a genius because you understood a rule better. I'm sure you've been wrong before occasion or two right ? Was there an idiot standing behind your back the whole time trying to make you look stupid because of it ? I sure hope not, this forum shouldn't be taken personally, we are all here sharing our opinions that's it. Keep it cool and will all have a much better time here, and make this place better for everyone involved.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> 2-3 zones aren't allowed. they are basically the specific zone that is outlawed by the nba.


Show me where. I've looked but cannot find this claim


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Is your only point to try and be smug ? I mean seriously add something to the thread, just stop acting like your a genius because you understood a rule better. I'm sure you've been wrong before occasion or two right ? Was there an idiot standing behind your back the whole time trying to make you look stupid because of it ? I sure hope not, this forum shouldn't be taken personally, we are all here sharing our opinions that's it. Keep it cool and will all have a much better time here, and make this place better for everyone involved.


I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to the kid that never watched any 1990's basketball. It's really not that serious, this board is for entertainment, and this thread is highly entertaining.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I'll take the Malice in the Palace over any other basketball fight. After that fight, there can be nothing to top it, short of gunfire.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> because you understood a rule better.


I know you weren't talking to me, but I want to touch on this

what do you mean? rocketeer is wrong on this issue.

For some reason, he thinks I didn't know that you can be in the lane if you are guarding someone?

What I was talking about was that in 01-02, the rule change made it so you can't be in the lane for more than 3 seconds if not guarding someone.

In MJ's day, this was not the case. It was a general 'illegal defense' violation that was NEVER called. Referees were CONFUSED about the rule, and the Center could get away with parking in the lane and not worry about 3 second violations.

This is why the lane is open in today's game and was clogged much more easily in MJ's day.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Cap said:


> I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to the kid that never watched any 1990's basketball. It's really not that serious, this board is for entertainment, and this thread is highly entertaining.


We can only learn from each other. I seriously don't know all the rules as well as I did say 15 years ago when I actually played organized basketball. I watch the game now for more entertainment purposes, and follow certain organizations that I feel put out a good brand of ball. I learn a lot from all the posters here, even if I disagree with some of you guy's about certain aspects of the game. I do though always find myself learning a lot. I really try to keep things cool, even though for some reason I turn people off for the simple fact I like, and don't like certain players, and for the fact I usually have an opinion that''s not popular with the masses. That being said I've always found this forum to be the best to come to and discuss basketball. You all believe it or not are great in my book, even if you think I hate ya, I can tell ya I really don't.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> I know you weren't talking to me, but I want to touch on this
> 
> what do you mean? rocketeer is wrong on this issue.
> 
> For some reason, he thinks I didn't know that you can be in the lane if you are guarding someone?
> 
> What I was talking about was that in 01-02, the rule change made it so you can't be in the lane for more than 3 seconds if not guarding someone.
> 
> In MJ's day, this was not the case. It was a general 'illegal defense' violation that was NEVER called. Referees were CONFUSED about the rule, and the Center could get away with parking in the lane and not worry about 3 second violations.
> 
> This is why the lane is open in today's game and was clogged much more easily in MJ's day.


Rocket man seemed right to me. I'm not sure where you feel he is wrong.

I do agree with you in certain aspects though, I believe there has to be reasons the lane is much more wide open now, versus back in the day when the lane was bottled up. 

I was under the impression some high school basketball coaches posted here, and really wanted to get their insight on this aspect.

As far as your interpretation of the rule, I don't doubt you at all, Like I just said in my post before this, I learn a lot from all you people here, so keep posting please. However by reading the rule (defensive 3 second rule) by the book at least, it seemed Rocket man was spot on. He did though openly admit that ref's don't always go by the book, and felt that could have some effect, which I think it could and would too.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> I'll take the Malice in the Palace over any other basketball fight. After that fight, there can be nothing to top it, short of gunfire.


I like that fight a lot too, anything that involves Ron Artest get's me excited, dude is the most excellent defender in the game today, "No Lay Ups, No Lay Ups" That is a Ron Artest quote when playing the Jazz last season, dude is old school, and crazy, my two favorite defensive components.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Rocket man seemed right to me. I'm not sure where you feel he is wrong.


Ok, here



rocketman said:


> you can't be called for defensive 3 seconds if you are guarding someone. so you don't have to worry about **** if you're defending your man in the post. you only aren't allowed to be in the paint for 3 seconds if you aren't guarding anyone. *and that has always been the rule. so it's no difference there.*


The rule was brought into the NBA in 2001-2002. IT WAS NOT always that way.

In MJ's day, it was a general 'illegal defense' that referees barely EVER called because it was open to interpretation. The C and PF could be in the lane without worry for more than 3 seconds, WITH OR WITHOUT GUARDING SOMEONE. It was easy to get away with. This HELPS the defense.

In today's NBA, there is a clear cut rule. You get called for a violation. THIS IS A HUGE advantage for offense. 

Theoretically, if I were LeBron, I could keep a mental note in my head "Ok, Garnett only has 1 more second left and he has to get out of the paint"

and then bam, drive to the rim while KG is out of position.

*LEBRON/KOBE ERA*










This is what is happening in today's NBA.

PF and C are forced to stand on opposite sides of the key if they aren't guarding someone, due to 3 second defensive rule, leaving the lane open to fast players to get a dunk, layup, or foul.

*The NBA admittedly did this to speed up the game and create 'fastbreak and scoring' opportunities.*

I should make a video showing how ridiculous it was in MJ's era. Look at some of the videos posted here to see how much camping people did in the lane in MJ's era. Compare that to today, when the lane is wide open most of the time


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Some of you people live in your own ignorant denial. 






Which is taken from the Kobe one...






Yeah, /pointless argument


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

good post 

and can anyone confirm rocketeer's claim that the NBA has outlawed the 2-3 zone? 

Because I can't find anything confirming this. Was he wrong or ?


----------



## SamTheMan67

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

AJ23 has had the same flawed logic arguments for the past 5 years, he probably thinks Lebron is still a bad defender and can't hit the big shot.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> 2-3 zones aren't allowed. they are basically the specific zone that is outlawed by the nba.


Ok, *I am calling it.*

The NBA DOES ALLOW the 2-3 zone.

rocketeer, stop making crap up.

I am damn sure that the implementation of zone defense, like the 2-3 zone (especially by teams that have rebounding and interior D problems who might use it even more than the average team) helps raise 3pt shooting.

that is all.

/owned thread.


----------



## Kuskid

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> Ok, *I am calling it.*
> 
> The NBA DOES ALLOW the 2-3 zone.
> 
> rocketeer, stop making crap up.
> 
> I am damn sure that the implementation of zone defense, like the 2-3 zone (especially by teams that have rebounding and interior D problems who might use it even more than the average team) helps raise 3pt shooting.
> 
> that is all.
> 
> /owned thread.


Brilliant offensive scheme to counteract the legal 2-3 zone in the NBA: don't put anyone in the lane, and the opposing team's center will just get called for defensive 3 seconds every trip down the floor. Instant free throws. I can't believe Pops, Jackson, or Van Gundy couldn't have thought of that. I should coach.

(You can't play a 2-3 zone in the NBA)


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Well you can believe that all you want. You had to be there, and you were clearly to young to have seen it for yourself. As I'm 6 years older than you are, I was lucky enough to see the blood spill. And just because It's not on the i-net doesn't mean it didn't happen.
> 
> Your familiar with the 76ers/Celtics brawl right ? with Bird being held by a few Sixers and Dr. J using Birds face like a punching bag ? Probably don't believe that one either, but I can tell you it did happen.


fighting was rare. and it had no impact on the actual physical nature of defense. heck, there was more fighting in the 70s and early 80s when the game was much more wide open and definitively less defense. 

fights were more common because the consequences were less. but fighting has nothing to do with defense. dr j wouldn't have been punching larry bird if bird wasn't lighting him up like a christmas tree.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

another thing frequently misunderstood is hand checking and what was allowed in the past. it's not like you could stop guys from penetrating with your hands.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Kuskid said:


> Brilliant offensive scheme to counteract the legal 2-3 zone in the NBA: don't put anyone in the lane, and the opposing team's center will just get called for defensive 3 seconds every trip down the floor. Instant free throws. I can't believe Pops, Jackson, or Van Gundy couldn't have thought of that. I should coach.
> 
> (You can't play a 2-3 zone in the NBA)


He said the NBA outlawed the 2-3 zone specifically, and that's not the case. 

The NBA has not outlawed the 2-3 zone and teams still use it.

EDIT - here is an even better article

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/2009/04/03/20090403spt-sunsdefense.html

*April 3, 2009*
With trades, the Suns have lost top defensive players such as Shawn Marion and Raja Bell and even a fundamentally sound one such as Boris Diaw. Shaquille O'Neal was a better paint protector last season when his role focused mostly on defense and rebounding, but he and Steve Nash continue to be a vulnerable screen-and-roll defensive combination.

Jared Dudley's recent emergence has helped the defense, *which often relies on a 2-3 zone.* But opposing guards and wings have driven through it to break down the Suns and make their league-leading shooting irrelevant at times. The Suns are 3-18 when their opponent shoots a better percentage than them.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> The rule was brought into the NBA in 2001-2002. IT WAS NOT always that way.
> 
> In MJ's day, it was a general 'illegal defense' that referees barely EVER called because it was open to interpretation. The C and PF could be in the lane without worry for more than 3 seconds, WITH OR WITHOUT GUARDING SOMEONE. It was easy to get away with. This HELPS the defense.


I don't think you ever really understood what rocketeer was saying about the 3 seconds in the key. He's saying you can't go into the paint without guarding someone. You had to stick to your man or it was illegal defense, so the 3 seconds in the key was pointless because you couldn't do it anyways; you had to stay with your man.

I wasn't around though, I don't know, but I think he's said that multiple times and it really seems like you're ignoring it.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I disagree with your thoughts here, but it's a stimulating topic, I'm kind of glad it's bounced around like this, I find it you must not know how salty and nasty Sally, Rodman, Laimbeer, and Rick Mahorn were on the defensive end. I've seen LeBron cry to the ref's because of what the Wiz did to him one year in the playoffs the Pistons would be a rude awakening to LBJ.


It doesn't matter how "nasty" John Sally was. He was essentially the same size as Mikki Moore, the first time that LeBron crashed into him on a drive he'd break. His NBA career would have been over the third time that LeBron hit him on a drive. That's not unique to 'Bron, that's true of a lot of modern power 3s. LBJ is just the biggest and baddest of the breed. James is _bigger_ than Karl Malone, who terrified guys across the NBA (unless he was shooting free throws in the clutch). There's just no way that the 6'7" 215lb guys of 20 years ago were going to stop 'Bron with their "nastiness".


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Did you choose to ignore my explanation of what 'illegal defense' was and how it was called? The referees admittedly were confused about the rule and there was no '3 second violation'

You could park in the lane, with or without a defender next to you, and sit there for 5 seconds and a referee MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT call 'illegal defense' or you could sit there for 10 seconds and a referee MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT call 'illegal defense', or you could get away with it altogether and nothing be called.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> It doesn't matter how "nasty" John Sally was. He was essentially the same size as Mikki Moore, the first time that LeBron crashed into him on a drive he'd break. His NBA career would have been over the third time that LeBron hit him on a drive. That's not unique to 'Bron, that's true of a lot of modern power 3s. LBJ is just the biggest and baddest of the breed. James is _bigger_ than Karl Malone, who terrified guys across the NBA (unless he was shooting free throws in the clutch). There's just no way that the 6'7" 215lb guys of 20 years ago were going to stop 'Bron with their "nastiness".


momentum is dangerous.

It doesn't matter how big you are, if you are in the air, you are VERY VULNERABLE to getting your butt knocked on the ground hard. It's physics.
















Don't act like LeBron is some unstoppable tank.

He would get his butt knocked to the ground whenever he launches in the air. Anyone is vulnerable to that.


----------



## Diable

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

If you watch the hornets play you'll see every type of funky zone you've ever heard of and some that don't even have names.The two three isn't that common,but it's just a zone defense and zone defense is perfectly legal in the nba so long as you stay reasonably close to someone when you're in the paint.


And Nelly played zone pretty much the entire time he was with the bucks.It was hilarious to watch the other coaches constantly complain and beg for the illegal defense.It was rarely called.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> Did you choose to ignore my explanation of what 'illegal defense' was and how it was called? The referees admittedly were confused about the rule and there was no '3 second violation'
> 
> You could park in the lane, with or without a defender next to you, and sit there for 5 seconds and a referee MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT call 'illegal defense' or you could sit there for 10 seconds and a referee MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT call 'illegal defense', or you could get away with it altogether and nothing be called.


I guess I can't say in that regard because I wasn't around, though I would find it weird if it was just never called. It's pretty obvious if someone is just camping inside and not guarding anyone. But again, I can't say.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I knew someone was going to say something like that, but that's a bogus argument, plenty of guy's were severely injured in the old days. The difference is the NBA teams/organizations were not trying to protect their players like they are now. Ask Rudy Tomjanovich, Michael Jordan, Kurt Rambis, etc players and you can find a list of players who have been hurt very bad in the past. The league is protecting players now, and it has nothing to do with their size, it has everything to do with MONEY.
> 
> Raja and Kobe play in the game today, no different right ?????


Kermit Washington was suspended for a season for what he did to Tomjanovich (and that was an accident, as Kermit himself said afterwards, he heard someone behind him and swung blindly, he was eternally guilt-ridden for nearly killing Rudy).


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Illegal defense was open to interpretation. Majority of the time, referees avoided calling it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=g1...jP23DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

Book : More than a game
By *Phil Jackson, Charles Rosen*

"...The result is that the Bulls frequently lost fouls. Even with Michael Jordan, Chicago always ranked in the bottom half of free throws attempted. In addition, referees tend to ignore the illegal defenses teams use against the Triangle. When Dennis Rodman played for the Bulls, his defender would simply ignore him on the wing and sink back into the lap of our center. This was an obvious case of illegal defense, but the referees chose to let it pass"

---

This is how it was in MJ's day. you could get away with camping in the lane, with or without a player right next to you. MJ had to continually drive to the rim in an era with Patrick Ewing waiting for you.

In today's NBA, Patrick would be sitting on the side of the key, leaving the lane wide open for anyone to drive and Ewing would have to dive in and try to stop them even though it's too late.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


>


Man, LeBron definitely helped sell that one. It seems like he pauses for a moment after getting hit then flings himself back.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> Illegal defense was open to interpretation. Majority of the time, referees avoided calling it.
> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=g1...jP23DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2
> 
> Book : More than a game
> By *Phil Jackson, Charles Rosen*
> 
> "...The result is that the Bulls frequently lost fouls. Even with Michael Jordan, Chicago always ranked in the bottom half of free throws attempted. In addition, referees tend to ignore the illegal defenses teams use against the Triangle. When Dennis Rodman played for the Bulls, his defender would simply ignore him on the wing and sink back into the lap of our center. This was an obvious case of illegal defense, but the referees chose to let it pass"
> 
> ---
> 
> This is how it was in MJ's day. you could get away with camping in the lane, with or without a player right next to you. MJ had to continually drive to the rim in an era with Patrick Ewing waiting for you.
> 
> In today's NBA, Patrick would be sitting on the side of the key, leaving the lane wide open for anyone to drive and Ewing would have to dive in and try to stop them even though it's too late.


that's simply not true. illegal defense was called all the time, and it influenced the way teams played defense. ewing could not just sit in the paint. didn't happen.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> momentum is dangerous.
> 
> It doesn't matter how big you are, if you are in the air, you are VERY VULNERABLE to getting your butt knocked on the ground hard. It's physics.


I'm not sure you understand the concept of momentum. That first clip is someone charging into him (hence _they_ have greater momentum than the stationary and prone-in-the-air James). The last two clips are of guys much larger than James (you know, like guys weren't all those years ago). There just weren't a lot of players Brendan Heywood's size 15-20 years ago. Now everyone has someone that tilts the scale at 280 or more. 15-20 years ago a large percentage of the guys that topped the scales at 280 or more looked like Oliver Miller. These days Big BBQ Davis is the exception.



ChrisRichards said:


> He would get his butt knocked to the ground whenever he launches in the air. Anyone is vulnerable to that.


Not by Beanpole Sally he wouldn't.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

kflo - I'll take Phil's word for it over yours. I've seen it with my own eyes.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> momentum is dangerous.
> 
> It doesn't matter how big you are, if you are in the air, you are VERY VULNERABLE to getting your butt knocked on the ground hard. It's physics.
> 
> 
> Don't act like LeBron is some unstoppable tank.
> 
> He would get his butt knocked to the ground whenever he launches in the air. Anyone is vulnerable to that.


now try and think about how frequently jordan was hurt because he was blasted while in the air. not alot.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Ras said:


> Man, LeBron definitely helped sell that one. It seems like he pauses for a moment after getting hit then flings himself back.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> kflo - I'll take Phil's word for it over yours. I've seen it with my own eyes.


what exactly is phil's word? that illegal defenses weren't called? that of course would be a lie. that rodman wasn't guarded that closely? that of course is true. that rodman's defender camped out in the lane with no regard for where rodman was? a lie again. not sure where you're going with this. illegal defense existed, was called to a point where it was annoying, and indeed prevented defenders from camping in the middle. teams would have offensive sets with their big men outside to bring their defender away from the paint.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> I'll take the Malice in the Palace over any other basketball fight. After that fight, there can be nothing to top it, short of gunfire.


Kermit and Rudy T.

All right, let's get something straight; just because there were (much) more fights in the 80's and early 90's doesn't mean defense was tougher, per se. It only means that the Nba brass was "looser" back in the day. And penalties were a joke compared with today's suspensions if you throw a punch.
Do you think a guy like Glen Rice, who once admited having, like, 11 fights (!) in his rookie year would do that doday? Which player wants to risk 10, 20 games suspensions WITHOUT PAY?

Heck, if today's NBA followed the same rules, i just picture guys like Bruce Bowen being cloobed twice a game, EVERY GAME (yeah, i know i'm exagerrating).

Hence, more fights don't equal tougher defense.

about the quality of defense thorough the eras, i get mixed feelings.
On one hand, yes, defense was more physical in the late 80's/early 90's. With one-on-one defense and handchicking you wouldn't have an easy timee scoring agaisnt a good defensive team (not a problem if you were playing Dever or Golden State, or the such). But it was defeinately less structured (sp?).

The game evolved, and defensive schemes are, nowadays, more complex. But it's also easier to play the game, IMO. From the "no blood, no foul" days (again, exagerating) to a time where you can go to the line 10 times a game just by reputation only (or almost). And to continue it's global growth to other markets, the NBA keeps changing the rules to make it easier to score, to help the game be more dinamic, and more marketable.
So, i don't know...

Oh, another thing: players today are faster and more athletic, but can they score from medium range? One thing i keep watching is Centers and Power Forwards today never attempting a shot from medium range. Once they get the ball it's either )a) work the way to the low post or (b) give the ball back. One of the reasons i think the pace was faster in the 80's was because almost every player could abd did shot the ball. Even scrubs like Greg Kite and John Kincak. Heck, even later, Bill Cartwright and Will Perdue made a living of shooting jumpers when open. Nowadays it's more dribble, dribble, move the ball or iso's. Wich spends more shot clock time.

Just some ramblings...


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I'm gonna make a freaking video to show the people who never watched MJ's games in the 80s and 90s. You will see how big men could CAMP THE LANE with or without a defender near them.

then I will add lebron and kobe era defense to see how open the lane is making it vulnerable to drives. i only have to do some paperwork today so i will get started.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Hall of Famer Rick Barry, a keen observer of the game, said he would love to see players of the past getting to attack the basket under the new officiating.

“They’d score a lot more,” he said.

Barry called the new rules interpretation “on overreaction by the league to the low scoring teams that have arisen over the last 15 years.”

Actually the league was perhaps trying to remedy the wrong problem, Barry said.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> what exactly is phil's word? that illegal defenses weren't called? that of course would be a lie. that rodman wasn't guarded that closely? that of course is true. that rodman's defender camped out in the lane with no regard for where rodman was? a lie again. not sure where you're going with this. illegal defense existed, was called to a point where it was annoying, and indeed prevented defenders from camping in the middle. *teams would have offensive sets with their big men outside to bring their defender away from the paint.*


... hmmm... That brings back memories of an Golden State vs San Antonio playoff series, when D-Rob was forced to stay outside next to the Warrios "center" who was staying there at the 3 point line whistling away...


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Except part of the new defensive rules is legal zones, which would make it harder, not easier to score. Way back in the day you had to disguise the zone, but in disguising it you reduced its effectiveness (because defenders needed to keep themselves close to the ball). If you let modern teams play more physically, and combine it with lax enforcement of the handchecking rules, games would regularly be scored in the 60s.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> I'm gonna make a freaking video to show the people who never watched MJ's games in the 80s and 90s. You will see how big men could CAMP THE LANE with or without a defender near them.
> 
> then I will add lebron and kobe era defense to see how open the lane is making it vulnerable to drives. i only have to do some paperwork today so i will get started.


illegal defense was called all the time. big men did not camp in the lane without an offensive player near them. 

by the way, since you believe phil, here's what he said when illegal defense was scrapped:



> "I think it'll be an advantage for Shaq, definitely, defensively," Jackson said. "It's going to keep him around the basket with a lot less movement.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/news/2001/04/12/rule_changes_ap/


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> I'm gonna make a freaking video to show the people who never watched MJ's games in the 80s and 90s. You will see how big men could CAMP THE LANE with or without a defender near them.
> 
> then I will add lebron and kobe era defense to see how open the lane is making it vulnerable to drives. i only have to do some paperwork today so i will get started.


But a video like that can't show the state of an entire era because you can cherry pick clips to make it seem like you want it to be. You could easily grab a bunch of clips from the current era where people have gotten away with camping the lane too; videos like that are almost irrelevant when it comes to proving something about an era.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

defensive 3 second rule is often called in today's game. this rule is strictly enforced. the amount of times people get away with it = minimal, compared to MJ's day when there was no '3 seconds' and it was just a open to interpretation "illegal defense" with no time limit. if it took the referee 5 seconds or 10 seconds to realize it, or if he never realizes it.

anyway, i'll be back later


----------



## R-Star

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> I'll take the Malice in the Palace over any other basketball fight. After that fight, there can be nothing to top it, short of gunfire.


Honestly? I was watching the game, I watched probably hundreds of replays, and it was a few guys throwing a few punches. It was a fight, but a basketball fight, where no one got hurt and the only tough guy on the court was Artest and Jackson.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

when the illegal defense rule was eliminated:



> Charlotte forward Jamal Mashburn said: ''I don't see how that's going to promote scoring. You look at teams like the Lakers and the Heat. Shaq and Alonzo will be in the lane. Imagine playing against David Robinson and Tim Duncan, standing there in the middle in a 3-2 zone.''





> ''I think it's a huge mistake,'' Miami Coach Pat Riley said last week. ''There's not going to be anybody able to drive. With these rules, you're going to be back in the 70's in scoring. You can't force pace.''


http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/12/s... Topics/People/J/Jackson, Phil&pagewanted=all


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Artest a tough guy? that why he punked out of Ben Wallace's face but turned brave and went after a 120 pound white guy in the stands?

who else? Jermaine O'Neal? LOL, the definition of SOFT.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> defensive 3 second rule is often called in today's game. this rule is strictly enforced. the amount of times people get away with it = minimal, compared to MJ's day when there was no '3 seconds' and it was just a open to interpretation "illegal defense" with no time limit. if it took the referee 5 seconds or 10 seconds to realize it, or if he never realizes it.
> 
> anyway, i'll be back later


do you even know why the got rid of the illegal defense? because teams would stack the floor to one side and have an offensive player isolate on the other side. why would they do this? because you had to stay with your man.

illegal defense was called all the time, and you didn't see big men camping out in the middle without his man near him. it was the easiest of all illegal defense calls. when the illegal defense was eliminated, many feared that scoring would plummet. but the hope was that the isolation game would disappear.


----------



## f22egl

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> Remember when Bynum collapsed Gerald Wallace's lung?
> If players today were allowed to do what the guys back then did, there would be dead bodies.
> 
> *I remember Lebron once clotheslined DWade and it was just a personal foul. * Heck, Zydrunas did it today against I think Rondo on the fast break, and they didn't do anything.


Wrong. They called it a flagrant foul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRhNzT9dfrI


----------



## SamTheMan67

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

and to say they honestly call 3 seconds is BS, many of the top defensive centers will be able to camp out for 5 seconds or more in the lane just waiting for anyone to drive..


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> Ok, *I am calling it.*
> 
> The NBA DOES ALLOW the 2-3 zone.
> 
> rocketeer, stop making crap up.
> 
> I am damn sure that the implementation of zone defense, like the 2-3 zone (especially by teams that have rebounding and interior D problems who might use it even more than the average team) helps raise 3pt shooting.
> 
> that is all.
> 
> /owned thread.


my quote was "2-3 zones aren't allowed. they are basically the specific zone that is outlawed by the nba."

do you know what a 2-3 zone is? have you ever watched syracuse play a basketball game?

in a 2-3 zone, the middle defender in the "3" part of the zone is camped out in the paint regardless of where the offensive players are. clearly that is not allowed. a 2-3 zone is probably the most frequent true zone used in college basketball and it basically is outlawed by the nba by not letting that guy camp out in the paint. a team could still technically play a 2-3 if they wanted, but it wouldn't be nearly as effective with the middle guy having to play on either side of the paint because the spacing of the zone would be all messed up.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

chrisrichards, since you are having so much trouble understanding here is the nba rule history.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html



> 1981-82
> • Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
> a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
> b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
> c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.
> d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
> e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
> f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball.
> • After the first illegal defense violation, the clock is reset to 24 seconds. All subsequent violations result in one free throw and possession of the ball. If any violation occurs during the last 24 seconds of each quarter or overtime period, the offended team receives one free throw.





> 1997-98
> • If two offensive players on the weak side are positioned above the top-of-the-circle extended, one of the two defenders may occupy any area on the weak side, except that he may not enter the inside lane other than to: aggressively double-team the ball, or defend an offensive player(s) who is open because of a double-team on the ball, or as a normal reaction to a “ball fake.” Following a “ball fake,” the defender must immediately return to a legal position or double-team on the ball.
> _*Previously, if two offensive players are positioned above either, the tip-of-circle extended on the strong side or weak side of the court, both defenders had to be positioned above the free throw line.*_





> 2001-02
> • Illegal defense guidelines will be eliminated in their entirety.
> • A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player.


----------



## JT

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Kobe was always Jordan's epigone, this was apparent to anyone who wasn't being downloaded by ESPN from roughly his 3rd/4th season onward. LeBron could pass Jordan, but you can't say that he will or that he has done so in only his sixth season.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

lebron hasnt even passed the likes of shaq, duncan and even Kobe yet. lets keep things in perspective folks.


----------



## O2K

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

ive been saying Lebron will be better than jordand for a few years now. Ever since his second year in the league ive been saying that bearing any serious injury there is no reason he wouldn't be better than jordan.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> lebron hasnt even passed the likes of shaq, duncan and even Kobe yet. lets keep things in perspective folks.


not sure how that is relevant to anything. it won't be possible for him to "pass" those guys in terms of accomplishments for a while.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> Artest a tough guy? that why he punked out of Ben Wallace's face but turned brave and went after a 120 pound white guy in the stands?
> 
> who else? Jermaine O'Neal? LOL, the definition of SOFT.


 
Whenever I see this comment, I see someone who doesn't understand temper and the situation. At that time Ron Artest was already in the doghouse with the trouble he's been in. When ben Wallace went at him he opted to try to avoid such a situation and get in trouble. He was already battling his temper at that point and trying to diffuse a situation. 

When the cup hit him it just broke all his effort.

trust me, Ben Wallace looks bigger because he's more muscular, but Ron Artest is equally as big, and just as tough if not tougher.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> not sure how that is relevant to anything. it won't be possible for him to "pass" those guys in terms of accomplishments for a while.


just saying. jordan is god status in the basketball world. to foresee lebron passing jordan's achievements is not only premature but downright asinine.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Thank you kflo and rocketeer for explaining that illegal defenses were called frequently and the new rule actually makes it harder to score in the paint, not easier. You can say illegal defenses weren't called and were subjective but they have the same subjectivity to an official as the defensive three seconds. From what I remember, illegal defenses were called just as much, which was/is once or maybe twice a game.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> just saying. jordan is god status in the basketball world. to foresee lebron passing jordan's achievements is not only premature but downright asinine.


Have some foresight for goodness sake. It's not going to kill you and it's not going to set anything in stone. Stating that you do or don't believe he will pass Jordan today doesn't mean you can't change your mind at some point in the future, and being wrong doesn't mean you have to repent. No hail mary is necessary. It shouldn't be forbidden to talk about a player reaching a certain level of greatness until they actually do it. What fun is that? Once they do it, there is nothing to discuss. It's the years before they pass legendary players that it's fun to talk about how great they are and can be. LeBron is 24. He isn't 18 anymore. There is no better time to talk about what he can do in his career.


----------



## SlamJam

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

2 years ago i knew lebron would challenge jordan's place in history just because of the age that he was doing those things. i even said a few months ago that he is playing better now than bird or magic ever were and some people here got all upset.

but to actually pass jordan i have to know that his best will be better than jordan's best. i can't say that right now. i could see jordan vs. lebron being like a magic vs. bird or wilt vs. shaq debate where there isn't a right answer.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Have some foresight for goodness sake. It's not going to kill you and it's not going to set anything in stone. Stating that you do or don't believe he will pass Jordan today doesn't mean you can't change your mind at some point in the future, and being wrong doesn't mean you have to repent. No hail mary is necessary. It shouldn't be forbidden to talk about a player reaching a certain level of greatness until they actually do it. What fun is that? Once they do it, there is nothing to discuss. It's the years before they pass legendary players that it's fun to talk about how great they are and can be. LeBron is 24. He isn't 18 anymore. There is no better time to talk about what he can do in his career.


i have foresight but im just having a hard time grasping the idea of lebron passing jordan's legacy, when he cant's even pass jordan's numbers/achievements in his first 6 years in the league (compared to jordans first 6 seasons) and that i guess is my problem. all this lebron praise will turn to criticisms once again, when the lakers defeats cleveland in the finals. just the way i see it right now. 


i looked at mj's first 6 years and came up with these numbers in the playoffs.

29.3 5.8 8.5 on 44% FG with PER of 24.7

43.7 6.3 5.7 on 51% FG with PER of 30.1

35.7 7.0 6.0 on 42% FG with PER of 28.1

36.3 7.1 4.7 on 53% FG with PER of 28.3

34.8 7.0 7.6 on 51% FG with PER of 29.9

36.7 7.2 6.8 on 51% FG with PER of 31.6


lebron's numbers in the playoffs

30.8 8.1 5.8 on 48% FG with PER of 23.2

25.1 8.1 8.0 on 42% FG with PER of 23.9

28.2 7.8 7.6 on 41% FG with PER of 24.3



Now in MJ's career his lowest PER in any playoff year was *24.7*. 



MJ had a MVP, DPOY award during his first 6 yrs. He had led in PER 4 times, Win shares 4x, OWS 4x. He had 4 scoring titles at that point, 4x ALL NBA 1st team and 3x All Defensive 1st team.

He already had 3-4 series in the playoffs of over 40+ ppg. 


lebron hasnt reached that efficiency.



Lebron on the other hand will come up really short to match jordan;s first 6 yrs. He has no mvp award right now, no all defense selections as of this time and just 2 all nba 1st team selections (will change at the end of the season) and has only won one scoring title.



i can go on patch but it will take forever


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> i have foresight but im just having a hard time grasping the idea of lebron passing jordan's legacy, when he cant's even pass jordan's numbers/achievements in his first 6 years in the league (compared to jordans first 6 seasons) and that i guess is my problem. all this lebron praise will turn to criticisms once again, when the lakers defeats cleveland in the finals. just the way i see it right now.
> 
> 
> i looked at mj's first 6 years and came up with these numbers in the playoffs.
> 
> 29.3 5.8 8.5 on 44% FG with PER of 24.7 - *in 4 games*
> 
> 43.7 6.3 5.7 on 51% FG with PER of 30.1 - *in 3 games*
> 
> 35.7 7.0 6.0 on 42% FG with PER of 28.1 - *in 3 games*
> 
> 36.3 7.1 4.7 on 53% FG with PER of 28.3
> 
> 34.8 7.0 7.6 on 51% FG with PER of 29.9
> 
> 36.7 7.2 6.8 on 51% FG with PER of 31.6
> 
> 
> lebron's numbers in the playoffs
> 
> 30.8 8.1 5.8 on 48% FG with PER of 23.2 - *in 13 games*
> 
> 25.1 8.1 8.0 on 42% FG with PER of 23.9 - *in 20 games*
> 
> 28.2 7.8 7.6 on 41% FG with PER of 24.3 - *in 13 games*
> 
> 
> 
> Now in MJ's career his lowest PER in any playoff year was *24.7*.
> 
> MJ had a MVP, DPOY award during his first 6 yrs. He had led in PER 4 times, Win shares 4x, OWS 4x. He had 4 scoring titles at that point, 4x ALL NBA 1st team and 3x All Defensive 1st team.
> 
> He already had 3-4 series in the playoffs of over 40+ ppg.
> 
> lebron hasnt reached that efficiency.
> 
> Lebron on the other hand will come up really short to match jordan;s first 6 yrs. He has no mvp award right now, no all defense selections as of this time and just 2 all nba 1st team selections (will change at the end of the season) and has only won one scoring title.
> 
> i can go on patch but it will take forever


i added the number of games they played in the playoffs in their first three years. seems like something that needs to be taken into account when giving their numbers.

and lebron will have his first mvp this season.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

A big thanks to kflo and rocketeer in explaining the defensive changes

Here's the average team offensive rating by year (offensive rating for teams is points scored per 100 possesions)
09 108.3
08 107.5
07 106.5
06 106.2
05 106.1
*04 102.9
03 103.6
02 104.5
01 103
00 104.1
99 102.2
98 105
*97 106.7
96 107.6
95 108.3
94 106.3
93 108
92 108.2
91 107.9
90 108.1
89 107.8
88 108

Average Offensive rating across the league since it adjusts per pace is a great way to judge how defense may or may not have changed. (the better the overall defense the worse the average offense rating). If you look how good actual defense became it was in the late 90's and early 00 where defenses combined increased sophistication plus stretching the rules in terms of handchecking, etc that offense plunged. Offenses now are about as good back during the NBA's heyday of Magic/Bird/Jordan. In fact the average offensive rating is very stable when you take away the dip caused by everyone adapting Riley ball.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> i added the number of games they played in the playoffs in their first three years. seems like something that needs to be taken into account when giving their numbers.


sure. the changes are minor and to be honest irrelevant, given the magnitude of jordan's other accomplishments. so it doesnt really change anything.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

What an entertaining yet informative thread.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> sure. the changes are minor and to be honest irrelevant, given the magnitude of jordan's other accomplishments. so it doesnt really change anything.


is it easier to play well for 4 games or 13? 3 or 20? obviously number of games played matters in regards to the numbers they put up(and how far their team advanced means something for the team accomplishments they've helped achieve as well).


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> is it easier to play well for 4 games or 13? 3 or 20? obviously number of games played matters in regards to the numbers they put up(and how far their team advanced means something for the team accomplishments they've helped achieve as well).


wow..i mean wow.


are you sure you want to use the amount of games to doubt mj's efficacy? 



seriously? 6 nba titles and owner of the highest ppg average/points scored in nba playoffs history?




4,8,12,16,20 games so on and so forth. eitherway jordan has displayed that he can walk with the best of them.



are we really going to sit here and find ways to disprove jordan's remarkable career?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> wow..i mean wow.
> 
> are you sure you want to use the amount of games to doubt mj's efficacy?
> 
> seriously? 6 nba titles and owner of the highest ppg average/points scored in nba playoffs history?
> 
> 4,8,12,16,20 games so on and so forth. eitherway jordan has displayed that he can walk with the best of them.
> 
> are we really going to sit here and find ways to disprove jordan's remarkable career?


you'll have to find a post where i said anything like that. i just feel that context is necessary. it's important to know whether jordan scored 43+ ppg on over 50% shooting for 3 games in the playoffs or if he did it over 15 games. because that does make a difference. no reason to go crazy because i adjusted your post to add a little bit of context to the numbers you were posting.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LOL @ notorious Jordan haters like Sir Patchwork now moving to Lebron after years of Kobe jocking in their quest to see Jordan dethroned. :lol:


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Jordan23Forever said:


> LOL @ notorious Jordan haters like Sir Patchwork now moving to Lebron after years of Kobe jocking in their quest to see Jordan dethroned. :lol:


Probably true.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

You're right how dare anyone question the Messiah of basketball, in the name of the jump man, pippen, and the holy Jordan.


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> please stop commenting on the defensive 3 second rule. you are completely wrong about it. before the defensive 3 second rule, all zone defense was illegal. the first violation was a warning, everything after that was free throws. now any defensive 3 seconds is a technical, but teams are allowed to play zones and it's perfectly legal to double players off the ball or rotate a big over to wait outside the paint to provide help instead of him being forced to follow his man around. the defensive 3 second rule allows centers and power forwards to legally provide much more help than they were able to in the past.


This is nonsense, and all it takes is a quick look at any game from the late 80's/early 90's to see that the lane was generally much more crowded (and patrolled by good/elite shotblocking centers more frequently than today) than it is nowadays. Boston, LA, Detroit, NY, Cleveland and others frequently looked like they had 3-4 defenders in the paint at all times.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Jordan23Forever said:


> This is nonsense, and all it takes is a quick look at any game from the late 80's/early 90's to see that the lane was generally much more crowded (and patrolled by good/elite shotblocking centers more frequently than today) than it is nowadays. Boston, LA, Detroit, NY, Cleveland and others frequently looked like they had 3-4 defenders in the paint at all times.


you are the one speaking nonsense. i simply explained the rules as they are(and were).


----------



## Jordan23Forever

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> you are the one speaking nonsense. i simply explained the rules as they are(and were).


Again, anyone can see that the paint was much more crowded than it is today. All you need to do is watch some games from '86-'93. Couple that with a far greater amount of good/great shotblocking centers and it was harder to finish inside than it is today, by and large.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> i have foresight but im just having a hard time grasping the idea of lebron passing jordan's legacy, when he cant's even pass jordan's numbers/achievements in his first 6 years in the league (compared to jordans first 6 seasons) and that i guess is my problem. all this lebron praise will turn to criticisms once again, when the lakers defeats cleveland in the finals. just the way i see it right now.
> 
> 
> i looked at mj's first 6 years and came up with these numbers in the playoffs.
> 
> 29.3 5.8 8.5 on 44% FG with PER of 24.7
> 
> 43.7 6.3 5.7 on 51% FG with PER of 30.1
> 
> 35.7 7.0 6.0 on 42% FG with PER of 28.1
> 
> 36.3 7.1 4.7 on 53% FG with PER of 28.3
> 
> 34.8 7.0 7.6 on 51% FG with PER of 29.9
> 
> 36.7 7.2 6.8 on 51% FG with PER of 31.6
> 
> 
> lebron's numbers in the playoffs
> 
> 30.8 8.1 5.8 on 48% FG with PER of 23.2
> 
> 25.1 8.1 8.0 on 42% FG with PER of 23.9
> 
> 28.2 7.8 7.6 on 41% FG with PER of 24.3
> 
> 
> 
> Now in MJ's career his lowest PER in any playoff year was *24.7*.
> 
> 
> 
> MJ had a MVP, DPOY award during his first 6 yrs. He had led in PER 4 times, Win shares 4x, OWS 4x. He had 4 scoring titles at that point, 4x ALL NBA 1st team and 3x All Defensive 1st team.
> 
> He already had 3-4 series in the playoffs of over 40+ ppg.
> 
> 
> lebron hasnt reached that efficiency.
> 
> 
> 
> Lebron on the other hand will come up really short to match jordan;s first 6 yrs. He has no mvp award right now, no all defense selections as of this time and just 2 all nba 1st team selections (will change at the end of the season) and has only won one scoring title.
> 
> 
> 
> i can go on patch but it will take forever


lebron came into the league at 18, jordan 21. there's no question jordan was better over the entirety of their first 6 years. lebron just completed his best season by far, will have his first mvp, a likely 1st team all-defense, and led his team to a spectacular record. 

lebron is a 24 year old who is completing one of the great regular seasons of all time. and of course it's no fluke, as it's not a tremendous leap from prior seasons. he has certain physical advantages and unique characteristics to his game that will make the debate interesting in the years to come. 

it'll probably be easier to reach jordan's actual level as a player than it will be to match his moments and his overall resume. but it's not a tremendous leap to think he'll reach jordan's level. or even maybe pass it. 

think about it - a per of 31.7, 67 wins, and all-league defense. 6'8, strong, freakish athleticism, exceptional passer and 24 years old.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Jordan23Forever said:


> LOL @ notorious Jordan haters like Sir Patchwork now moving to Lebron after years of Kobe jocking in their quest to see Jordan dethroned. :lol:


c'mon, don't these threads keep you alive? when the jordan phone rings, j23f is there man.


----------



## sMaK

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

The biggest obstacle Lebron must overtake is father time.

He came into the league three years before MJ. Will his legs die out before MJs did? He's already logged a ridiculous amount of playing time on that body. And what if _this_ is his prime? Can he _really_ get better statistically? He doesn't really have to, he just has to keep it up for a prolonged period of time. That is no easy feat.

But if he does, which is not far-fetched, he will pass MJ.


----------



## Diable

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

One thing you have to remember is that Jordan won his six titles before the current cba came into effect.When the bulls needed something they just went out and got it without a salary cap to impede them.In fact his last chicago contract(he made about 80% of his career earnings in two years)and KG's contract pretty much inspired the lockout.


The salary cap has led to parity and ended the era of big market teams having a huge advantage in competing for championships.Even if Lebron was to have as good a career in every other way it would be far more difficult for the cavaliers to assemble a dynastic quality team.The bulls never had a ton of huge names aside from pippen,but every time they had needs they simply went and filled them by one means or another.Having Jordan was a huge part of making them a dominant team,but it was also far easier to create and maintain a dominant team over a long period.It's going to be very difficult for Lebron to compete with MJ in rings.MJ played in an era that favored dynasties.All the good teams stayed good and competed for titles year after year,something the cba has pretty much eliminated.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Diable said:


> One thing you have to remember is that Jordan won his six titles before the current cba came into effect.When the bulls needed something they just went out and got it without a salary cap to impede them.In fact his last chicago contract(he made about 80% of his career earnings in two years)and KG's contract pretty much inspired the lockout.
> 
> 
> The salary cap has led to parity and ended the era of big market teams having a huge advantage in competing for championships.Even if Lebron was to have as good a career in every other way it would be far more difficult for the cavaliers to assemble a dynastic quality team.The bulls never had a ton of huge names aside from pippen,but every time they had needs they simply went and filled them by one means or another.Having Jordan was a huge part of making them a dominant team,but it was also far easier to create and maintain a dominant team over a long period.It's going to be very difficult for Lebron to compete with MJ in rings.MJ played in an era that favored dynasties.All the good teams stayed good and competed for titles year after year,something the cba has pretty much eliminated.


i don't necessarily see much of a difference today. look at the spurs, and their ability to fill in spots behind their stars. you can still lock in 2-3 star players and back fill around them. and you can still sign your own players and go well over the cap.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Again, anyone can see that the paint was much more crowded than it is today. All you need to do is watch some games from '86-'93. Couple that with a far greater amount of good/great shotblocking centers and it was harder to finish inside than it is today, by and large.


Improved defense should mean that on average NBA teams would have scored less per 100 possessions: there is no evidence outside of the Riley ball in the late 90's/early 00 that team offensive efficiency was down in the Jordan era compared to now.

The real players who we probably should give extra credit to our guy like Shaq and Duncan who excelled in the more defensive years


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Again, anyone can see that the paint was much more crowded than it is today. All you need to do is watch some games from '86-'93. Couple that with a far greater amount of good/great shotblocking centers and it was harder to finish inside than it is today, by and large.


It wasn't because teams were playing zone, but because in the 80s teams generally kept two players on the blocks. That changed in the late 80s when Pitino had his Knicks firing up treys at a much higher rate, and then took an astronomical leap forward in the early 90s when Rudy T took over the Rockets and Paul Westphal took over the Suns and had their teams firing up 12-15 treys a game. Put another way, there wasn't a lot of floor spacing until the early 90s, _but you were still required to be guarding your man_. And if the other team's center was playing at the top of the key then someone had to be out there guarding them.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> lebron came into the league at 18, jordan 21. there's no question jordan was better over the entirety of their first 6 years.


i dont agree with you on this one. you said it yourself. lebron is a freak. an all world talent. he came into the league equipped with undeniable skills, his production through out is steady and in phase for someone who is in consideration to go down as a likely top 10 player of all time. 


if anything, lebron has the upperhand over mj with his physique. jordan was a wiry guard whose forte was scoring a whole lot during his first 1-3 yrs while lebron always has been a better rebounder and passer eventhough he came in 3 yrs younger.


----------



## Luke

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> i dont agree with you on this one. you said it yourself. lebron is a freak. an all world talent. he came into the league equipped with undeniable skills, his production through out is steady and in phase for someone who is in consideration to go down as a likely top 10 player of all time.
> 
> 
> if anything, lebron has the upperhand over mj with his physique. jordan was a wiry guard whose forte was scoring a whole lot during his first 1-3 yrs while lebron always has been a better rebounder and passer eventhough he came in 3 yrs younger.


You don't agree that Jordan came into the league at 21 and LeBron came in at 18 or that it's unfair to compare their first six years?


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



VanillaPrice said:


> You don't agree that Jordan came into the league at 21 and LeBron came in at 18 or that it's unfair to compare their first six years?


you have reading comprehension issues. try understanding the response in context.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Diable said:


> In fact his last chicago contract(he made about 80% of his career earnings in two years)and KG's contract pretty much inspired the lockout.


This is misleading. In the 80's, player salaries were NOTHING compared to what they turned out to be in the 90's.

Michael Jordan, the best player in the NBA, was paid no more than $4 million until 1996-1997 and his final season in 1997-1998.

1984-85 - $550,000
1985-86 - $630,000
1986-87 - $737,500
1987-88 - $845,000
1988-89 - $2,000,000
1989-90 - $2,250,000
1990-91 - $2,500,000
1991-92 - $3,250,000
1992-93 - $4,000,000
1993-94 - $4,000,000
1994-95 - $3,850,000
1995-96 - $3,850,000
1996-97 - $30,140,000
1997-98 - $33,140,000 



Diable said:


> When the bulls needed something they just went out and got it without a salary cap to impede them


and *THIS quote from you* is flat out WRONG.

Players were paid MUCH LESS in MJ's day. MJ helped lead the NBA to a whole new level in revenue and popularity, so saying something like "80% of his career earnings" is misleading.

Here is an article from 1991 HOOPS magazine:

*Moreover, Jordan's $3.25 million salary is nothing close to what he's worth to the Chicago Bulls franchise. One prominent West Coast general manager said Jordan is worth the entire salary cap*, or $12.5 million. Another put his worth at $6 million to $7 million with the cap. Falk said simply that Jordan will never get paid his true market value because the salary cap makes it impossible.

...


Indeed, Bulls chairman Jerry Reinsdorf bought the team for less than $20 million midway through Jordan's rookie season. Through some shrewd marketing (most of which revolved around Jordan), Jordan's presence both on and off the court and a significant upgrading of the overall talent, the team in now valued at $100 million.

In his rookie season alone, Jordan revived the Chicago franchise. The Bulls' attendance was just 6,365 a game the year before Jordan arrived. In 1984-85, despite another poor record, Chicago went to 11,887. For the last four years, Chicago Stadium has been full virtually every night. *Television and radio contracts have skyrocketed and advertising revenues have risen to a level that not even Reinsdorf could have hoped.*

http://www.nba.com/jordan/hoop_phenomenon.html


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

oh, lookie what I found in that same article (great article btw)

---
As for Nike, Jordan figures to have made close to $10 million last season in total compensation from that deal alone. Sales of Nike's basketball shoe line topped $500 million, and company stock, which Jordan started acquiring at $7 a share soared over $100 before splitting recently.

--

just to remind those people who argued with me about Jordan and Nike. I said Jordan made Nike (i dont mean he formed the company), and people were saying no way. If it wasn't for MJ, Nike wouldn't be where it is today.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



VanillaPrice said:


> You don't agree that Jordan came into the league at 21 and LeBron came in at 18 or that it's unfair to compare their first six years?


Age doesn't make you a great player. Working on your game from a child to your last shot makes you great. That's why all the all time youngest age records are asinine. If a guy is 50 years old ala Deke, and can play in the NBA that's all that should matter. If a guy is 17 years old and can play in the NBA that's all that should matter. The NBA ranks your career by seasons played in the NBA not by age. Judge basketball players of all ages by the merit of their skills not the year they were born on. 

I'm personally not more impressed with a 50 year old Deke schooling a 24 year old NBA player, and I'm not more impressed with a 24 year old LeBron schooling a 30 year old NBA player. I judge all players across the board regardless of their ages on the merit of their basketball game.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> i dont agree with you on this one. you said it yourself. lebron is a freak. an all world talent. he came into the league equipped with undeniable skills, his production through out is steady and in phase for someone who is in consideration to go down as a likely top 10 player of all time.
> 
> 
> if anything, lebron has the upperhand over mj with his physique. jordan was a wiry guard whose forte was scoring a whole lot during his first 1-3 yrs while lebron always has been a better rebounder and passer eventhough he came in 3 yrs younger.


1. lebron came into the league at 18, jordan 21. 

2. there's no question jordan was better over the entirety of their first 6 years.

which one of those statements do you not agree with?


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Age doesn't make you a great player. Working on your game from a child to your last shot makes you great. That's why all the all time youngest age records are asinine. If a guy is 50 years old ala Deke, and can play in the NBA that's all that should matter. If a guy is 17 years old and can play in the NBA that's all that should matter. The NBA ranks your career by seasons played in the NBA not by age. Judge basketball players of all ages by the merit of their skills not the year they were born on.
> 
> I'm personally not more impressed with a 50 year old Deke schooling a 24 year old NBA player, and I'm not more impressed with a 24 year old LeBron schooling a 30 year old NBA player. I judge all players across the board regardless of their ages on the merit of their basketball game.



if a guy is the greatest ever at 24 but not as productive at 18, i'm not going to hold his production at 18 against him. particularly not in comparison to other guys who were in college at that age. not sure if that's what you're saying though.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> oh, lookie what I found in that same article (great article btw)
> 
> ---
> As for Nike, Jordan figures to have made close to $10 million last season in total compensation from that deal alone. Sales of Nike's basketball shoe line topped $500 million, and company stock, which Jordan started acquiring at $7 a share soared over $100 before splitting recently.
> 
> --
> 
> just to remind those people who argued with me about Jordan and Nike. I said Jordan made Nike (i dont mean he formed the company), and people were saying no way. If it wasn't for MJ, Nike wouldn't be where it is today.


the marketing campaigns from nike around jordan also helped shape jordan. they were ahead of the pack. not to drag this off topic.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> if a guy is the greatest ever at 24 but not as productive at 18, i'm not going to hold his production at 18 against him. particularly not in comparison to other guys who were in college at that age. not sure if that's what you're saying though.


LeBron is the greatest ever at 24 ? Wow...

Every NBA player get's better the more time they play in the NBA, not just LBJ, and it doesn't mater what age they are when they declare for the draft. 

Nobody is holding anything against LeBron for entering the NBA when he did. Just nobody is going to give him brownie points for being young and good. Just like nobody is going to give any other NBA player brownie points for being old and good. 

All we can do is judge every single NBA player from their rookie year, until they retire and judge them based on the merit of their basketball skills.


----------



## Luke

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Age doesn't make you a great player. Working on your game from a child to your last shot makes you great. That's why all the all time youngest age records are asinine. If a guy is 50 years old ala Deke, and can play in the NBA that's all that should matter. If a guy is 17 years old and can play in the NBA that's all that should matter. The NBA ranks your career by seasons played in the NBA not by age. Judge basketball players of all ages by the merit of their skills not the year they were born on.
> 
> I'm personally not more impressed with a 50 year old Deke schooling a 24 year old NBA player, and I'm not more impressed with a 24 year old LeBron schooling a 30 year old NBA player. I judge all players across the board regardless of their ages on the merit of their basketball game.


So you don't think that working another three years in a top notch University would have helped LeBron's game and early career numbers?


----------



## Dre

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I already said his size is his biggest advantage in surpassing Jordan...within 5-6 years he should be as good or better than Jordan in every notable category, plus he'll be able to play and defend the 4 at an all-star level. Kobe's skillset is so close to Jordan's he would've had to obliterate Jordan's numbers for you to actually prefer him...with Jordan or Lebron there's going to be a distinct enough difference to where I could see a lot of people eventually taking him over Jordan.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



VanillaPrice said:


> So you don't think that working another three years in a top notch University would have helped LeBron's game and early career numbers?


Depends on the player dude, it may, and it may not. The point is what you do is judge the player once they turn PRO from their rookie season, till their career is over regardless of age. When you are pro you are getting paid millions of dollars, age isn't a part of that pay check, your skills are, and the hope your potential becomes something special. That's the way it is for every NBA PRO now and forever, regardless of the day you were born.


----------



## Luke

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> LeBron is the greatest ever at 24 ? Wow...
> 
> Every NBA player get's better the more time they play in the NBA, not just LBJ, and it doesn't mater what age they are when they declare for the draft.
> 
> Nobody is holding anything against LeBron for entering the NBA when he did. Just nobody is going to give him brownie points for being young and good. Just like nobody is going to give any other NBA player brownie points for being old and good.
> 
> All we can do is judge every single NBA player from their rookie year, until they retire and judge them based on the merit of their basketball skills.


Actually, plenty of people commended Lebron for being so terrific at such a young age, just like how everyone was more amazed at Jordan when he continued his dominance despite his old age.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



VanillaPrice said:


> Actually, plenty of people commended Lebron for being so terrific at such a young age, just like how everyone was more amazed at Jordan when he continued his dominance despite his old age.


Your missing the point dude. It's not LeBrons age that makes him great. It wasn't when he was in high school and it wont be when he's an old NBA Vet.


----------



## Luke

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Your missing the point dude. It's not LeBrons age that makes him great. It wasn't when he was in high school and it wont be when he's an old NBA Vet.


So you don't see the signifigance when a player that is 18 years old averaging 20/5/5 against a 28 year old averaging 20/5/5?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> LeBron is the greatest ever at 24 ? Wow...


he said "if". though lebron's per does suggest that he may be having the greatest season ever.



> Every NBA player get's better the more time they play in the NBA, not just LBJ, and it doesn't mater what age they are when they declare for the draft.


true.



> Nobody is holding anything against LeBron for entering the NBA when he did. Just nobody is going to give him brownie points for being young and good. Just like nobody is going to give any other NBA player brownie points for being old and good.


but it's relevant when someone tries to measure the first 6 years of lebron's career with the first 6 years on another player's career. you would expect the first few years of jordan's career to be better than the first few of lebron's career because jordan had more time to develop being in college for 3 years. he had 3 extra years of basketball that lebron didn't have. that doesn't make either player better or worse, it just makes it silly to compare the first few years of their careers to each other as if it means anything significant.



> All we can do is judge every single NBA player from their rookie year, until they retire and judge them based on the merit of their basketball skills.


sure. but if we are talking only about the early years of a player's career, it is significant to know where they were coming from. if two players are complete equals in ability but one came out of high school and one went to 3 years of college, we would expect the one who went to college to have better early career numbers.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



VanillaPrice said:


> So you don't see the signifigance when a player that is 18 years old averaging 20/5/5 against a 28 year old averaging 20/5/5?



There is no difference, I'm not judging them based on their age. I'm judging them based on the merit of their basketball skills. That's why an entire career is the only way to put into perspective when judging how great any player is. Especially when judging them against players that have already finished their careers. I don't play the @ certain age player is better not because of their basketball skills just because they are younger, that's an asinine way to judge anything.

If that was the case we should all be jizzing all over Dikembe mutombo for playing basketball at the highest level in the world at 48 years old. Yet were not, why do you think that is ? Because nobody cares how old he is. Just like we shouldn't care how young someone is either. Let's just let dudes young and old play the game they love, and judge them based on the merit of their basketball skills, and let them leave their birth certificates at home.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> he said "if". though lebron's per does suggest that he may be having the greatest season ever.
> 
> 
> true.
> 
> 
> but it's relevant when someone tries to measure the first 6 years of lebron's career with the first 6 years on another player's career. you would expect the first few years of jordan's career to be better than the first few of lebron's career because jordan had more time to develop being in college for 3 years. he had 3 extra years of basketball that lebron didn't have. that doesn't make either player better or worse, it just makes it silly to compare the first few years of their careers to each other as if it means anything significant.
> 
> 
> sure. but if we are talking only about the early years of a player's career, it is significant to know where they were coming from. if two players are complete equals in ability but one came out of high school and one went to 3 years of college, we would expect the one who went to college to have better early career numbers.


LOL such a can of BS. Jordan was great because he was great not because of his age.

Many guys go to college for many years and suck in the NBA. Get over the age thing it's the most asinine argument i've ever seen to favor anybody.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

i said if a guy was the greatest ever at 24. i wasn't talking specifically about lebron.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> LOL such a can of BS. Jordan was great because he was great not because of his age.
> 
> Many guys go to college for many years and suck in the NBA. Get over the age thing it's the most asinine argument i've ever seen to favor anybody.


i think you're missing the point. the point is that it's not necessarily fair to judge their rookie years on a comparable basis. what's going to define both of them is their primes and their peak levels of play. the rest is gravy to some extent.


----------



## Luke

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

^ Jesus Christ how are you not getting this, three extra years to hone your basketball skills before preforming on the highest level possible is obviously extremely helpful for the maturation process of young players. I mean, do you really think that Kobe Bryant would have averaged eight points a game in his rookie year if he came into the league when he was 21? Of course not, and i'm trying to figure out where the disconnect is and why you think that age isn't relevant.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



VanillaPrice said:


> ^ Jesus Christ how are you not getting this, three extra years to hone your basketball skills before preforming on the highest level possible is obviously extremely helpful for the maturation process of young players. I mean, do you really think that Kobe Bryant would have averaged eight points a game in his rookie year if he came into the league when he was 21? Of course not, and i'm trying to figure out where the disconnect is and why you think that age isn't relevant.


Jordan was far from his prime when he was a rookie. LMFAO @ age being the reason why people are good, Thats what your essentially saying to favor LeBron James. If it was all about age, every single person that got older would be great, that doesn't happen many players get worse as they age, many player that went to college to hone their skills sucked in the NBA.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> LOL such a can of BS. Jordan was great because he was great not because of his age.
> 
> Many guys go to college for many years and suck in the NBA. Get over the age thing it's the most asinine argument i've ever seen to favor anybody.


show me where i said that jordan was great because of his age.

i'll repost my last paragraph. do you disagree with this is any way?

"if we are talking only about the early years of a player's career, it is significant to know where they were coming from. if two players are complete equals in ability but one came out of high school and one went to 3 years of college, we would expect the one who went to college to have better early career numbers."


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> i think you're missing the point. the point is that it's not necessarily fair to judge their rookie years on a comparable basis. what's going to define both of them is their primes and their peak levels of play. the rest is gravy to some extent.


So Jordan should't be judged against guys that came into the NBA older than him, or spent more time in college ? You see how asinine that sounds ?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> show me where i said that jordan was great because of his age.
> 
> i'll repost my last paragraph. do you disagree with this is any way?
> 
> "if we are talking only about the early years of a player's career, it is significant to know where they were coming from. if two players are complete equals in ability but one came out of high school and one went to 3 years of college, we would expect the one who went to college to have better early career numbers."


No it doesn't matter where they came from, because were not judging LeBron and how well he did in High School, it doesn't matter where Jordan came from because were not judging him on how well he did in college. Were judging them on how well they do in the NBA. Not how old they were when they decided to declare for the draft. I already showed you how asinine that kind of statement to favor any player is. As many players go to college and suck in the NBA.


----------



## Luke

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Jordan was far from his prime when he was a rookie. LMFAO @ age being the reason why people are good, Thats what your essentially saying to favor LeBron James. If it was all about age, every single person that got older would be great, that doesn't happen many players get worse as they age, many player that went to college to hone their skills sucked in the NBA.


Holy ****, of course Jordan was far from his prime when he was 21, but LeBron was EVEN FURTHER from his when he came into the league, and THATS why his accomplishments look even more immpressive.

And players do get better with age, typically a player doesn't hit his prime until he's around 27-29, (Which is normally around their 8th year or so) and then the only reason that they decline after that is their body shuts down.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> So Jordan should't be judged against guys that came into the NBA older than him, or spent more time in college ? You see how asinine that sounds ?


are you even trying to understand this?

that lebron wasn't as good when he entered the league as jordan when he entered the league shouldn't be held against lebron. nor should it be surprising. this isn't rocket science.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



VanillaPrice said:


> Holy ****, of course Jordan was far from his prime when he was 21, but LeBron was EVEN FURTHER from his when he came into the league, and THATS why his accomplishments look even more immpressive.
> 
> And players do get better with age, typically a player doesn't hit his prime until he's around 27-29, (Which is normally around their 8th year or so) and then the only reason that they decline after that is their body shuts down.


Anybody that know's anything about me, would know by the AV I have, that going from prep to pros is cool, but means nothing at the end of the day. Moses Malone is usually considered the greatest ever to come out of high school to pro NBA, but nobody says earlier years shouldn't be compared like anyone else's just because he came out of high school. You guys just don't get it. So I'll leave you to your favoritism reasoning to judge guy's over others to yourselves. So just Do It Man!!


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> are you even trying to understand this?
> 
> that lebron wasn't as good when he entered the league as jordan when he entered the league shouldn't be held against lebron. nor should it be surprising. this isn't rocket science.


I already know about this long before LBJ.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> No it doesn't matter where they came from, because were not judging LeBron and how well he did in High School, it doesn't matter where Jordan came from because were not judging him on how well he did in college. Were judging them on how well they do in the NBA. Not how old they were when they decided to declare for the draft. I already showed you how asinine that kind of statement to favor any player is. As many players go to college and suck in the NBA.


when was i favoring any player? when was anyone here favoring any player due to age? they were saying the rookie year(and early year) comparisons didn't work because one guy was much further along in his basketball career(not nba career) than the other. if you really still disagree with that and call that asinine, i don't know what to tell you.


----------



## Basel

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Anybody that know's anything about me, would know by the AV I have, that going from prep to pros is cool, but means nothing at the end of the day. *Moses Malone is usually considered the greatest ever to come out of high school to pro NBA*, but nobody says earlier years shouldn't be compared like anyone else's just because he came out of high school. You guys just don't get it. So I'll leave you to your favoritism reasoning to judge guy's over others to yourselves. So just Do It Man!!


By who? Better than Kobe? Garnett? LeBron?


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Jordan was far from his prime when he was a rookie. LMFAO @ age being the reason why people are good, Thats what your essentially saying to favor LeBron James. If it was all about age, every single person that got older would be great, that doesn't happen many players get worse as they age, many player that went to college to hone their skills sucked in the NBA.


age isn't the reason people are good. but you're not as close to your prime at 18 as you are at 21. fact is, lebron went from h.s. to averaging 21 ppg in the nba. jordan went from h.s. to averaging 14 ppg at nc. i don't think i'm going to conclude much about either based on that.


----------



## Luke

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Anybody that know's anything about me, would know by the AV I have, that going from prep to pros is cool, but means nothing at the end of the day. Moses Malone is usually considered the greatest ever to come out of high school to pro NBA, but nobody says earlier years shouldn't be compared like anyone else's just because he came out of high school. You guys just don't get it. So I'll leave you to your favoritism reasoning to judge guy's over others to yourselves. So just Do It Man!!


You do realize that I don't even like LeBron right? He was probobly one of my least favorite players in the entire league coming into this year, so you should probobly just get that out of your head.

And when talking about players that came straight out of highschool their career stats are always taken with a grain of salt because in 99% of their cases their rookie years where incredibly underwhelming.

I'm done with this conversation, you're obviously too stubborn to admit that your (flawed) logic is illogical, and the rest of the argument will just become a pointless pissing contest that will ruin this thread.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



VanillaPrice said:


> You do realize that I don't even like LeBron right? He was probobly one of my least favorite players in the entire league coming into this year, so you should probobly just get that out of your head.
> 
> And when talking about players that came straight out of highschool their career stats are always taken with a grain of salt because in 99% of their cases their rookie years where incredibly underwhelming.
> 
> I'm done with this conversation, you're obviously too stubborn to admit that your (flawed) logic is illogical, and the rest of the argument will just become a pointless pissing contest that will ruin this thread.


Moses Malone was great right out of high school dude. Hence why he's usually considered the best to go from prep to pro. I believe LBJ will become that guy, but Moses had that torch for many years before LBJ was even out of diapers. My point is nobody who calculates Moses career down play his early years when in comparison to any other great players because he came out of high school. Just like I'm not going to give LeBron any brownie points because he came out of high school. There age means squat. I judge all players regardless of age or where they came from based on the merit of their basketball skills.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Basel said:


> By who? Better than Kobe? Garnett? LeBron?


No doubt Moses had more impact right out of the gate than Garnett , Bryant, and etc 

Like I said in my post up above LeBron will probably take that mantle from Moses. However before LBJ most considered Moses to be the best player to go from prep to pro.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> age isn't the reason people are good. but you're not as close to your prime at 18 as you are at 21. fact is, lebron went from h.s. to averaging 21 ppg in the nba. jordan went from h.s. to averaging 14 ppg at nc. i don't think i'm going to conclude much about either based on that.


Like I said I can careless what they did in high school or college. i'm judging them based on the merit of their game as a Pro regardless of their ages. Prime really doesn't matter, as some guy's primes are nothing close to Jordan but came into the league older than Mike. We can only judge them based on every season they played as a pro.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Moses Malone is usually considered the greatest ever to come out of high school to pro NBA, but nobody says earlier years shouldn't be compared like anyone else's just because he came out of high school.


No he isn't. Moses didn't go from high school to the NBA, he went to the weaker of the two professional leagues in an era heavily diluted by all the pro teams and the lack of high-level international entries into the NBA. As of now LBJ's rookie season is probably the best straight to the NBA year, and likely to remain that way until the current rule is scrapped.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> No he isn't. Moses didn't go from high school to the NBA, he went to the weaker of the two professional leagues in an era heavily diluted by all the pro teams and the lack of high-level international entries into the NBA. As of now LBJ's rookie season is probably the best straight to the NBA year, and likely to remain that way until the current rule is scrapped.


He still went prep to pro dude, just because it was the ABA doesn't change that fact. Many great player played in the ABA, and would of been just as great if they went to the NBA. Do I need to list all the great ABA players ? Rick Barry, Dr. J, Moses Malone, David Thompson, and Artis Gilmore. The list goes on. Don't try and down play a 19 year old kid from high school going pro. And YES Moses was always considered the best prep to pro player ever before LBJ.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Like I said I can careless what they did in high school or college. i'm judging them based on the merit of their game as a Pro regardless of their ages. Prime really doesn't matter, as some guy's primes are nothing close to Jordan but came into the league older than Mike. We can only judge them based on every season they played as a pro.


we can only judge them based on every season they played as a pro? who says? you actually could judge seasons in context. lebron's first year out of h.s. he was averaging 21 ppg in the nba. jordan's first year out of h.s. he was at nc playing a supporting role. why do i have to judge lebron's season without any regard to context? 

prime is defined as peak level of play. has nothing to do with age. if lebron's prime (peak) level of play exceeds, in my opinion, jordan's prime level of play, i'm really not going to care that jordan was better as a rookie than lebron was as a rookie. particularly when lebron as a rookie was straight out of h.s.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> we can only judge them based on every season they played as a pro? who says? you actually could judge seasons in context. lebron's first year out of h.s. he was averaging 21 ppg in the nba. jordan's first year out of h.s. he was at nc playing a supporting role. why do i have to judge lebron's season without any regard to context?
> 
> prime is defined as peak level of play. has nothing to do with age. if lebron's prime (peak) level of play exceeds, in my opinion, jordan's prime level of play, i'm really not going to care that jordan was better as a rookie than lebron was as a rookie. particularly when lebron as a rookie was straight out of h.s.


I don't see any NBA records to have anything to do with Prime with LeBrons name in them, they call them the youngest to, You can have all the context you want, but the day you decide to lace them up and go pro, and are being paid millions of dollars. Everything changes, nobody cares about your high school or college. You play for a brand and a city. You either do well or you dont, we can careless how old you are. Just like nobody brings up Moses Malone going from prep to pro when comparing him to other great players. Just like I'm not going to bring up Lebron going prep to pro, what I will do is judge his PRO career against all other PRO careers.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> He still went prep to pro dude, just because it was the ABA doesn't change that fact. Many great player played in the ABA, and would of been just as great if they went to the NBA. Do I need to list all the great ABA players ? Rick Barry, Dr. J, Moses Malone, David Thompson, and Artis Gilmore. The list goes on. Don't try and down play a 19 year old kid from high school going pro. And YES Moses was always considered the best prep to pro player ever before LBJ.


Get back to me when you learn to sing The Ballad of Ticky Burden.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> Get back to me when you learn to sing The Ballad of Ticky Burden.


There's nothing to get back to you with.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I don't see any NBA records to have anything to do with Prime with LeBrons name in them, they call them the youngest to, You can have all the context you want, but the day you decide to lace them up and go pro, and are being paid millions of dollars. Everything changes, nobody cares about your high school or college. You play for a brand and a city. You either do well or you dont, we can careless how old you are. Just like nobody brings up Moses Malone going from prep to pro when comparing him to other great players. Just like I'm not going to bring up Lebron going prep to pro, what I will do is judge his PRO career against all other PRO careers.


actually, cavs fans were pretty thrilled with lebron's performance as a rookie. and part of the reason they were so thrilled was because of his level of play at his age. they recognized that if he was that good at 18, his ceiling will be much higher as he matures. 

when comparing moses to other players, what generally matters most is what he did in the late 70s and early 80s. you know, when he was at his peak? not that he maybe wasn't as good as a rookie as some other great big men.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Another ABA great the Iceman George Gervin. Can't believe I forgot him on my list. Plus the notable coach Larry Brown! Who's an institution among coaching ranks in the NBA.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> actually, cavs fans were pretty thrilled with lebron's performance as a rookie. and part of the reason they were so thrilled was because of his level of play at his age. they recognized that if he was that good at 18, his ceiling will be much higher as he matures.
> 
> when comparing moses to other players, what generally matters most is what he did in the late 70s and early 80s. you know, when he was at his peak? not that he maybe wasn't as good as a rookie as some other great big men.


You don't think people thought Moses was really good his rookie season ? How about, At the age of 19, when he was a lean and lanky 6-10 man-child, Malone had no trouble making the jump from Petersburg (Va.) High School to the Utah Stars of the ABA. Playing forward until he filled out enough to take the pounding at center, Malone was an immediate success in the ABA, averaging over 18 points and 14 rebounds as a rookie. I'm sure people thought he was going to be pretty good as he matured to.

The point is nobody down plays Moses first Six Years comparing them to any other great player because he went prep to pro. That's what people on this board are saying , don't compare LeBrons first six seasons to MJ, because LeBron was younger. That's asinine and that's my point, and that has everything to do with age. We can only judge every pro basketball player by the merit of their game.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> There's nothing to get back to you with.


If you were old enough to remember Ticky Burden, you would understand what I was saying. As you're lost we can assume that you're just going over to basketball reference to figure out what players spent time in the junior league. Thanks for affirming that you have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> If you were old enough to remember Ticky Burden, you would understand what I was saying. As you're lost we can assume that you're just going over to basketball reference to figure out what players spent time in the junior league. Thanks for affirming that you have no idea what you're talking about.


Wrong again, but good job with the assumptions. Amazing what some posters on here get away with.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> You don't think people thought Moses was really good his rookie season ? How about, At the age of 19, when he was a lean and lanky 6-10 man-child, Malone had no trouble making the jump from Petersburg (Va.) High School to the Utah Stars of the ABA. Playing forward until he filled out enough to take the pounding at center, Malone was an immediate success in the ABA, averaging over 18 points and 14 rebounds as a rookie. I'm sure people thought he was going to be pretty good as he matured to.
> 
> The point is nobody down plays Moses first Six Years comparing them to any other great player because he went prep to pro. That's what people on this board are saying , don't compare LeBrons first six seasons to MJ, because LeBron was younger. That's asinine and that's my point, and that has everything to do with age. We can only judge every pro basketball player by the merit of their game.


The Buffalo Braves & the Portland Trailblazers want you to know that they wish you were actually right about this. If "everyone knew" that Moses was special the Clippers would have had a few titles, or at the very least the Trailblazers wouldn't have lost a step after Walton bolted.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Wrong again, but good job with the assumptions. Amazing what some posters on here get away with.


No, I'm right about this.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> No, I'm right about this.


Actually your not right about assuming I don't know abut a legendary player like Ticky, and I don't need to go to any reference websites to know that. You realize, conversation is one of the greatest tools to knowledge, and I have a lot of basketball knowledge because i talk to basketball fanatics that are many generations older than I. Believe me NY City legends is one of the most discussed aspects about basketball history, I've been schooled on this aspect of the game and it's many greats long before I was an adult in my 30s.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> You don't think people thought Moses was really good his rookie season ? How about, At the age of 19, when he was a lean and lanky 6-10 man-child, Malone had no trouble making the jump from Petersburg (Va.) High School to the Utah Stars of the ABA. Playing forward until he filled out enough to take the pounding at center, Malone was an immediate success in the ABA, averaging over 18 points and 14 rebounds as a rookie. I'm sure people thought he was going to be pretty good as he matured to.
> 
> The point is nobody down plays Moses first Six Years comparing them to any other great player because he went prep to pro. That's what people on this board are saying , don't compare LeBrons first six seasons to MJ, because LeBron was younger. That's asinine and that's my point, and that has everything to do with age. We can only judge every pro basketball player by the merit of their game.


moses wasn't as good as david robinson or tim duncan his first 4 years in the league. and that's not that important in assessing his career relative to those guys. 

here's a question for you. if lebron's next 10 seasons are as good or better than this year, what are you going to do with the fact that jordan was better than lebron as a rookie?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Actually your not right about assuming I don't know abut a legendary player like Ticky, and I don't need to go to any reference websites to know that. You realize, conversation is one of the greatest tools to knowledge, and I have a lot of basketball knowledge because i talk to basketball fanatics that are many generations older than I. Believe me NY City legends is one of the most discussed aspects about basketball history, I've been schooled on this aspect of the game and it's many greats long before I was an adult in my 30s.


Then you should understand that Ticky wasn't really good enough to make it on the senior circuit. The commanding view of NBA GMs was that ABA numbers were vastly inflated, which is why Moses got passed around like a joint before he even got a chance to play in the NBA. No one expected he or the other high schoolers to duplicate their ABA performance in the NBA. When Moses began killing it in Houston all the GMs that could have had him for a song, _and the ones that actually did_ reached for the Pepto Bismol. Moses was considered to have had _the best career_ of any of the prep to pro guys in the 80s & 90s, but the success of the third generation prep to pros will move Moses out of the career spotlight.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> moses wasn't as good as david robinson or tim duncan his first 4 years in the league. and that's not that important in assessing his career relative to those guys.
> 
> here's a question for you. if lebron's next 10 seasons are as good or better than this year, what are you going to do with the fact that jordan was better than lebron as a rookie?


Simple, Jordan was better out the gates. What's so wrong with saying it the way it is. Just like If LeBron has a better career than Jordan, what's wrong with just saying it as it is ? Nothing. Just don't act like LBJ six years don't count because he went prep to pro when rating him against MJ.

Moses stats hold up just fine. From start to finish. And we judge him based just on that, Moses has never gotten any brownie points based on age in any argument for his career versus any other great nba player.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> Then you should understand that Ticky wasn't really good enough to make it on the senior circuit. The commanding view of NBA GMs was that ABA numbers were vastly inflated, which is why Moses got passed around like a joint before he even got a chance to play in the NBA. No one expected he or the other high schoolers to duplicate their ABA performance in the NBA. When Moses began killing it in Houston all the GMs that could have had him for a song, _and the ones that actually did_ reached for the Pepto Bismol. Moses was considered to have had _the best career_ of any of the prep to pro guys in the 80s & 90s, but the success of the third generation prep to pros will move Moses out of the career spotlight.


That was never my argument though. And I don't have one with you. My point is that when we rate Moses, we don't use his prep to pro to bolster his career versus any other great professional basketball player. However guy's are trying to say that LBJ's first six years shouldn't be compared to MJ's because LBJ went prep - pro. TO me that's very asinine. As LBJ isn't the first, and probably won't be the last to get paid to play basketball right out of high school. I believe you judge players from their rookie season to the day they decide to hang up their sneakers based on the merit of their skill not their age when they decided to declare for the draft.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Simple, Jordan was better out the gates. What's so wrong with saying it the way it is. Just like If LeBron has a better career than Jordan, what's wrong with just saying it as it is ? Nothing. Just don't act like LBJ six years don't count because he went prep to pro when rating him against MJ.
> 
> Moses stats hold up just fine. From start to finish. And we judge him based just on that, Moses has never gotten any brownie points based on age in any argument for his career versus any other great nba player.


moses was not as good as duncan or robinson his first 4 years. that's just fact. however, his peak is arguably as good or better. noone's giving moses brownie points based on his age, nor are they overly penalizing him for not being as good as a 19 year old rookie out of h.s.

jordan was better out of the gates. he wouldn't have been better out of the gates if, like lebron, he went from h.s. to the nba. i'm pretty confident in that statement because i saw him as a freshman at nc. not that he wasn't special.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> moses was not as good as duncan or robinson his first 4 years. that's just fact. however, his peak is arguably as good or better. noone's giving moses brownie points based on his age, nor are they overly penalizing him for not being as good as a 19 year old rookie out of h.s.
> 
> jordan was better out of the gates. he wouldn't have been better out of the gates if, like lebron, he went from h.s. to the nba. i'm pretty confident in that statement because i saw him as a freshman at nc. not that he wasn't special.


Again were not debating how good someone was in college or high school, were rating them based on their pro career. You don't get it dude, And Moses first 4 years hold up just fine.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Again were not debating how good someone was in college or high school, were rating them based on their pro career. You don't get it dude, And Moses first 4 years hold up just fine.


if by hold up just fine you mean not as good, then you're correct.

if you take the same exact player and put him in the league at 18 straight from hs, and 21 with 3 years of college, would you have any expectation as to which version would have the better rookie season?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> That was never my argument though. And I don't have one with you. My point is that when we rate Moses, we don't use his prep to pro to bolster his career versus any other great professional basketball player. However guy's are trying to say that LBJ's first six years shouldn't be compared to MJ's because LBJ went prep - pro. TO me that's very asinine. As LBJ isn't the first, and probably won't be the last to get paid to play basketball right out of high school. I believe you judge players from their rookie season to the day they decide to hang up their sneakers based on the merit of their skill not their age when they decided to declare for the draft.


I'm not sure about how you discuss it, most people I know always use context when discussing numbers, and generally compare players by age. By the way, Moses wasn't the first prep to pro player, he was the first of the second wave.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> if by hold up just fine you mean not as good, then you're correct.
> 
> if you take the same exact player and put him in the league at 18 straight from hs, and 21 with 3 years of college, would you have any expectation as to which version would have the better rookie season?


I've watched enough basketball to say no. If your a great player when you declare most people will know it. It could be one year in college ala Kevin Durant, no years Moses and LeBron James, or more like MJ. 

I've also watched enough 4 year college guy's be complete busts, and I've seen enough guy's come from high school be their generations best, Kobe, KG, and McGrady to name a few. 

No Moses wasn't quite as good, but his numbers stand up just fine, Just like LBJ's numbers stand up just fine. Like you said the numbers are just not as good to Duncan/Robinson, just like LBJ's numbers are not as good as MJ's first six years. That being said, nobody says Moses first six years shouldn't be compared to other greats because he went prep to pro. Yet thats exactly what's being said for LeBron James. 

When LeBrons career finishes just like Moses, he will be compared from his rookie season to his last season, no exceptions. Will he have a better career than MJ ? time will only tell, at this point MJ's had the better career.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

the same player. you have no expectation of the same player at 18 vs 21? seriously?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> I'm not sure about how you discuss it, most people I know always use context when discussing numbers, and generally compare players by age. By the way, Moses wasn't the first prep to pro player, he was the first of the second wave.


I wasn't claiming he was the first, I said that before LBJ, Moses was generally considered the best ever pro basketball player that went prep to pro. 

And nobody I know when discussing Moses brings up the fact he was a 19 year old when he went pro right out of high school when judging him against other great player. I think the reason why age really doesn't hold a lot of merit is because we've had guy's come into the league at all different ages and all perform at different levels. There for the best way to judge any professional basketball player is to judge them based on the merit of their basketball skills from their rookie season until the day they hang up their sneakers for good. Then we can all come to our conclusions how great of a basketball career they had, and where they rank.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I wasn't claiming he was the first, I said that before LBJ, Moses was generally considered the best ever pro basketball player that went prep to pro.
> 
> And nobody I know when discussing Moses brings up the fact he was a 19 year old when he went pro right out of high school when judging him against other great player. I think the reason why age really doesn't hold a lot of merit is because we've had guy's come into the league at all different ages and all perform at different levels. There for the best way to judge any professional basketball player is to judge them based on the merit of their basketball skills from their rookie season until the day they hang up their sneakers for good. Then we can all come to our conclusions how great of a basketball career they had, and where they rank.


Actually, if you're debating Moses vs. Karl I would be stunned if you talked about _either_ players' early years. The only time this really comes up is when you're comparing _active_ players to past guys, and in those cases, when having those conversations, I nearly always end up using contextual numbers, as do the people I'm talking to. When Al Jefferson arrived in the NBA, and reminded everyone of a young Moses with his ability to anticipate where the ball was coming off the rim and his ability to score on the blocks, the discussion was never "But Moses put up 30/15 once!" and was always a comparison by age.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

damn..

I finished editing the clips I am going to use (still needs effects/text/etc), but it's totaling 24 minutes long.....lol


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

23AJ, how can you ignore any sort of context when comparing great players. It doesn't matter to you that generally players who are 21 coming out of college put up better numbers in there rookie season than those who are 18 and coming out of high school? That's like taking a college graduate and comparing him to a high school graduate, then saying the one that graduated from college is smarter. And saying it doesn't matter how old you are what matters is how much you know, ignoring the fact that those extra four years provided the student with a lot more to time to gain knowledge.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

In case you guys havent noticed. Lebron is not like any other HS kid that went pro. He already has an NBA ready body...



Lebron is a freak of nature. One of a a kind. Comparing him to any other 18 yr old that went pro is a moot point.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> lebron's per does suggest that he may be having the greatest season ever..


nope. mj holds that. sorry.






rocketeer said:


> you would expect the first few years of jordan's career to be better than the first few of lebron's career because jordan had more time to develop being in college for 3 years. he had 3 extra years of basketball that lebron didn't have...


its a flawed argument. upon drafting lebron, the cleveland cavaliers immediately became lebron's personal playgroud. lebron was playing against and with the pro. he had all the developmental attribution of players who are undeniably a "step up" in the growth process. 


No college player can claim his program was better than what was presented to james or any franchise player given the driver seat in their first year.





> we would expect the one who went to college to have better early career numbers.


its funny because the best players in the game today never went to college (KG,Kobe,Lebron,Tmac and Jermaine when healthy, Bynum quickly progressing etc)


unique and gifted players who are developed properly in the NBA really makes no difference to those players established at the collegiate level.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> its funny because the best players in the game today never went to college (KG,Kobe,Lebron,Tmac and Jermaine when healthy, Bynum quickly progressing etc)
> 
> 
> unique and gifted players who are developed properly in the NBA really makes no difference to those players established at the collegiate level.


that wasn't the point. the point was they're not as "nba ready" from day 1 in the league. which is obviously true. the same player will be more ready at 21 than at 18.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> nope. mj holds that. sorry.


the statement i made really isn't one that can be disagreed with. lebron's per suggests he may be having the greatest season of all time.



> its a flawed argument. upon drafting lebron, the cleveland cavaliers immediately became lebron's personal playgroud. lebron was playing against and with the pro. he had all the developmental attribution of players who are undeniably a "step up" in the growth process.
> 
> No college player can claim his program was better than what was presented to james or any franchise player given the driver seat in their first year.


it's not a flawed argument at all. if you have two similarly talented players, you'd expect the guy who plays 3 years of college to put up better numbers in his first few years in the league than the guy who came straight out of high school.



> its funny because the best players in the game today never went to college (KG,Kobe,Lebron,Tmac and Jermaine when healthy, Bynum quickly progressing etc)
> 
> unique and gifted players who are developed properly in the NBA really makes no difference to those players established at the collegiate level.


you just named off a bunch of guys who prove my point. look at those players you named and look at the numbers they put up early in their careers. compare those numbers to similarly talented guys who went to college for a few years. the players coming out of high school generally have lower initial numbers because they weren't as far along in their development. comparing the early years of players careers really isn't a good indicator of deciding who had or will have the better career.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> damn..
> 
> I finished editing the clips I am going to use (still needs effects/text/etc), but it's totaling 24 minutes long.....lol


Didn't you read my earlier post?



> But a video like that can't show the state of an entire era because you can cherry pick clips to make it seem like you want it to be. You could easily grab a bunch of clips from the current era where people have gotten away with camping the lane too; videos like that are almost irrelevant when it comes to proving something about an era.


A bunch of video clips are useless and prove nothing.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> Actually, if you're debating Moses vs. Karl I would be stunned if you talked about _either_ players' early years. The only time this really comes up is when you're comparing _active_ players to past guys, and in those cases, when having those conversations, I nearly always end up using contextual numbers, as do the people I'm talking to. When Al Jefferson arrived in the NBA, and reminded everyone of a young Moses with his ability to anticipate where the ball was coming off the rim and his ability to score on the blocks, the discussion was never "But Moses put up 30/15 once!" and was always a comparison by age.


Well I have to say that may be the case for you and your circle of people. However in every city from Oakland (Born and raised) Seattle (college) and now Portland (where I live). Anyone I ever talk to about Moses, they never bring up the fact he went prep to pro. They simple discuss their professional impact and the pros and cons of him as a player, and the same for any other great player he's compared against. Never does age come into play. Yet that is exactly what everyone here want's to establish for LBJ, HIS AGE, The fact he didn't go to college. That's a bunch of garbage IMO. I can careless how young or old a player is, I will judge him on the merit of his basketball skills. If your a senior graduating from UCLA and declaring for the NBA draft, or if your a young great talent like Moses Malone or LeBron James declaring to play professional basketball right out of high school, I will judge them based on how they do just like I judge the older guys. Their age makes no difference to me.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

*To ehmunro*

Here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, going prep to pro means nothing age means nothing when comparing PRO basketball players vs. PRO basketball players. A thread was made not to long ago about Moses Malone. In the thread when people discuss Moses game, and his impact on the game, NOBODY mentions Moses went from prep to pro. There for his earlier numbers are judged the same as the other great players, who went pro after going to college. People rate Moses entire career for what it is , no exemptions for Moses because of age, and no college career, and there will be no exemptions for LeBron, when comparing him as a pro to other great pro basketball players. ehmunro I left the link below to the thread Im showing you as an example, this example has always been the case in my discussions regarding Moses when discussing his career, and comparing him to other great players.

http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-history-aba-too/424988-getting-know-moses.html


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

what you're missing is that nobody was attempting to discredit moses for not being as good as some of his peers when he came into the league. his age wasn't a factor because when judging moses, what he did at his peak is what matters most. not what he did at 19, or what he did at 39.

i'll ask you again: 

the same player. you have no expectation of the same player at 18 vs 21? seriously?


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> nope. mj holds that. sorry.


Huh? :wtf:


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> what you're missing is that nobody was attempting to discredit moses for not being as good as some of his peers when he came into the league. his age wasn't a factor because when judging moses, what he did at his peak is what matters most. not what he did at 19, or what he did at 39.
> 
> i'll ask you again:
> 
> the same player. you have no expectation of the same player at 18 vs 21? seriously?


I'm not missing the point, The point is nobody mentions the fact Moses went from prep to pro PERIOD. Because it' doesn't matter, when you go pro, your age and background don't mean squat. Your getting paid to do a job just like everyone else is You don't get special treatment or considerations because you don't have a college back ground. Just like guy's who do go to college for many years, and suck in the NBA, don't get any special treatment. You are what you are the day you decide to play for an organization, and you will be judged by your production regardless of age, and background.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Huh? :wtf:


MJ's highest per is higher than that of LBJ's this season. Not that it matters, Per has many flaws in it as we all know.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Once Lebron's career is over, or closer to ending, that he jumped from high school probably won't matter, beyond saying that he's the greatest prep to pro ever. And one of, if not the, greatest player of all-time.

He's on a very good pace right now for his career.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> MJ's highest per is higher than that of LBJ's this season. Not that it matters, Per has many flaws in it as we all know.


Oh, dude was talking about PER seasons. I see.
I thought he was saying that Ol'Baldy once had a 50/20 season. Or a triple-double one. 
Thanx.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> Once Lebron's career is over, or closer to ending, that he jumped from high school probably won't matter, beyond saying that he's the greatest prep to pro ever. And one of, if not the, greatest player of all-time.
> 
> He's on a very good pace right now for his career.


I can get behind that, and I agree if LBJ becomes the greatest it has nothing to do with how young he was when he came into the league or how old he is when he goes out. He will be the greatest because he has special physical gifts, and a great mind for the game, all of which have been on display since ESPN has been showing his high school games. 

And you are right LBJ will be considered the best to have gone prep to pro, with moses right behind him, but his career will be judged like moses based on their production from their rookie season to their last season, nobody cares what their birth certificate says, we judge players every single year they are in the NBA based on the merit of their basketball skills.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Oh, dude was talking about PER seasons. I see.
> I thought he was saying that Ol'Baldy once had a 50/20 season. Or a triple-double one.
> Thanx.


LOL nope, but I'm sure your well aware people here believe BIg O and Wilt wouldn't average those kind of numbers in todays game because of pace right ? So people around here kind of merely brush off the greatness of Oscar and Wilt, it's a shame as they are probably the two greatest individual players ever with MJ coming in third.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Well I have to say that may be the case for you and your circle of people. However in every city from Oakland (Born and raised) Seattle (college) and now Portland (where I live). Anyone I ever talk to about Moses, they never bring up the fact he went prep to pro.


Soooo, what you're saying is that I was right, and when you compare Moses to other retired players you never discuss their early careers and generally discuss their primes. This, of course, contradicts your earlier claims, but what the heck.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> Soooo, what you're saying is that I was right, and when you compare Moses to other retired players you never discuss their early careers and generally discuss their primes. This, of course, contradicts your earlier claims, but what the heck.


How is it a contradiction ? My only point was when people were comparing LBJ to MJ's first six years, you compare them for exactly what they are. I believe your missing the point, People do discuss Moses early years but they LEAVE OUT THE FACT he went prep to pro when discussing it. They simply compare from his rookie season until the end, and weigh in where they believe he ranks all time. Where as now you have people wanting to give LBJ some kind of exemptions because he went prep to pro, and that's completely asinine.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

the fact that moses went prep to pro would only be an issue of someone was dumb enough to argue that say robinson was better because he was better when he came into the league.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

actually, I will say Kevin Garnett was just as good as LeBron coming out of high school.

we underrate KG so much because of crappy Minnesota.


----------



## Idunkonyou

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LMAO! He has to win some championships first.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Jordan23Forever said:


> LOL @ notorious Jordan haters like Sir Patchwork now moving to Lebron after years of Kobe jocking in their quest to see Jordan dethroned. :lol:


Jordan hater? That's a first. Jordan brought me into basketball and him and Pippen are two of my favorite players ever. Hell, I'm still a Bulls fan out of respect to that fact. I just love to see the evolution of the game and I refuse to be stuck in the 90's or stuck in the 80's with the old guys who still think Larry Bird was better than Michael Jordan because he played the "right way." Nobody has dethroned Jordan, but as long as he is still the top dog of all-time, you're damn straight I will continue to compare the best of the era to him. With Kobe, I've always said he will never pass Jordan because he just doesn't have the same freaky athleticism and quickness/explosiveness, and never will. Although I still think he is more skilled than Jordan (and LeBron), and he has done things that Jordan (or LeBron) never will. 

Of course, your name suggests that it really doesn't matter who does what better than Jordan now or in the future. You are going to be his little minion, as you say, forever. Objective or not. Good luck with that.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Like I've always said, Michael Jordan broke so much ground in the NBA that he will most likely always be the most popular and the Greatest Ever in most peoples eyes. That doesn't mean other Greats wont' be better than Jordan in certain aspects of the game of basketball. However they will never have the place in time and history to break the ground and change the game of basketball like MJ did.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Like I've always said, Michael Jordan broke so much ground in the NBA that he will most likely always be the most popular and the Greatest Ever in most peoples eyes. That doesn't mean other Greats wont' be better than Jordan in certain aspects of the game of basketball. However they will never have the place in time and history to break the ground and change the game of basketball like MJ did.


This isn't true. People who grew up in the Jordan era will always feel that way. Like Coatesvillian said though, kids who are growing up watching the NBA now won't have that same nostalgic view, just like a lot of Jordan-ites didn't have the same nostalgic view of the 80's that the generation before had. This changes every generation.


----------



## HKF

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Once we are old and gray, telling people how good Jordan was, people are going to say he's nothing like "Guy Incognito" now. At the end of the day, there is no real way to prove this. I just wish people would stop talking about Jordan. It's been over a decade since he meant something to the balance of the league on the court.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> This isn't true. People who grew up in the Jordan era will always feel that way. Like Coatesvillian said though, kids who are growing up watching the NBA now won't have that same nostalgic view, just like a lot of Jordan-ites didn't have the same nostalgic view of the 80's that the generation before had. This changes every generation.


How can it not be true if it's my opinion ? I'm certainly sure I'm entitled to my own opinion, you may disagree with me, but to tell me I'm wrong is asinine. I'm not going to bother you with why I feel the way I do, it's apparent you already have your mind up that MJ didn't break more ground than any other NBA player, I can respect your opinion, but I disagree, For my own personal knowledge about basketball, that goes long before the NBA, I believe No player has broken as much ground in the NBA's history as Michael did.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> How can it not be true if it's my opinion ? I'm certainly sure I'm entitled to my own opinion, you may disagree with me, but to tell me I'm wrong is asinine. I'm not going to bother you with why I feel the way I do, it's apparent you already have your mind up that MJ didn't break more ground than any other NBA player, I can respect your opinion, but I disagree, For my own personal knowledge about basketball, that goes long before the NBA, I believe No player has broken as much ground in the NBA's history as Michael did.


You said "in most peoples eyes" he will "likely always" be the "most popular" and "greatest ever" which is more than just your opinion.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



HKF said:


> Once we are old and gray, telling people how good Jordan was, people are going to say he's nothing like "Guy Incognito" now. At the end of the day, there is no real way to prove this. I just wish people would stop talking about Jordan. It's been over a decade since he meant something to the balance of the league on the court.


I cannot wait for that day. I'm on other spots where Jordan threads STILL pop up every ****in week. It's pretty damn annoying for all those "Kobe will never be Jordan" or "Lebron won't touch Jordan" or "There'll never be another jordan!" threads.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> actually, I will say Kevin Garnett was just as good as LeBron coming out of high school.
> 
> we underrate KG so much because of crappy Minnesota.


how do you come up with all the ridiculous things you say?


----------



## The Big Youngistotle

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

This subject is an enormous joke. First of all, LeBron is yet to win ONE title. Can we at least table the discussion about LeBron coming even close to Jordan until then. Oh by the way, I don't even think LeBron has (or will in my mind) pass Magic Johnson. Want to know why? What did Magic do in his first year in the league? Oh yeah...won an NBA title. You want to claim it was because he played on a team with Kareem? Then you must've forgotten the clinic he put on in the NBA Finals in game six when Kareem didn't play and magic played Center. I think he had 40 some odd points. Mind you...he was a rookie, and he was playing against a team led by the great Dr. J.

Ok..so let's get back to LeBron and Jordan. Let's take this discussion away from the stats and titles (cause quite frankly, LeBron isn't there). Let's look at what Jordan did to the game of basketball. I don't know how old many of you were during the 80's and the 90's, but I can tell you that basketball was strictly an American sport. There was no country that came even close to caring two ____ about it outside of the contiguous United States. What Jordan did was to popularize the game in such a way that we have a Tony Parker, or a Dirk. I remember when I was 12 years old we had a Japanese foreign exchange student stay at our house for two weeks. This guy did not understand a lick of english for the most part, but he knew two words. Those were "Coke" and "Michael Jordan." If that doesn't put it in perspective, I don't know what ever will. And that's why His Airness is in a class of his own.


----------



## Diable

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Lebron has never even played with anyone as good as Norm Nixon...You know the starting point guard for that team


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



The Big Youngistotle said:


> This subject is an enormous joke. First of all, LeBron is yet to win ONE title. Can we at least table the discussion about LeBron coming even close to Jordan until then. Oh by the way, I don't even think LeBron has (or will in my mind) pass Magic Johnson. Want to know why? What did Magic do in his first year in the league? Oh yeah...won an NBA title. You want to claim it was because he played on a team with Kareem? Then you must've forgotten the clinic he put on in the NBA Finals in game six when Kareem didn't play and magic played Center. I think he had 40 some odd points. Mind you...he was a rookie, and he was playing against a team led by the great Dr. J.


kareem averaging 33 and 14 and almost 5 blocks over the first 5 games did play a role. or his 32 and 12 in the entire playoffs. 

not that magic wasn't a freak.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



The Big Youngistotle said:


> I don't know how old many of you were during the 80's and the 90's, but I can tell you that basketball was strictly an American sport. There was no country that came even close to caring two ____ about it outside of the contiguous United States. What Jordan did was to popularize the game in such a way that we have a Tony Parker, or a Dirk. I remember when I was 12 years old we had a Japanese foreign exchange student stay at our house for two weeks. This guy did not understand a lick of english for the most part, but he knew two words. Those were "Coke" and "Michael Jordan." If that doesn't put it in perspective, I don't know what ever will. And that's why His Airness is in a class of his own.


Actually, it was the '92 Olympics that changed the game at the international level. And I was in my 20s in the 80s, so I'm old enough to remember.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> You said "in most peoples eyes" he will "likely always" be the "most popular" and "greatest ever" which is more than just your opinion.


it's an opinion shared by over 99% of all basketball fans.


----------



## Luke

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> it's an opinion shared by over 99% of all basketball fans.


Woah, you actually think that 99% of people think that Jordan's the GOAT?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



VanillaPrice said:


> Woah, you actually think that 99% of people think that Jordan's the GOAT?


It's not even close around the world. I'll find the link for you, where I read about MJ being the world's most popular athlete.

In the USA only, there will be more arguments about who the greatest basketball player is, but not the most popular. MJ wins that every time. However around the world MJ has had the most impact bar none. 

Just ask a guy like Manu from the Spurs, growing up in the 90s, and the families and their dog in south america huddling around their television sets just to watch MJ. Hence why the ratings were so freaking huge. Something no other superstar has done that MJ did, make the game it's most popular and put the world in a tails spin. Actually for that fact Lebron was part of one of the lowest rated finals ever.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> Actually, it was the '92 Olympics that changed the game at the international level. And I was in my 20s in the 80s, so I'm old enough to remember.


It started there, but MJ was the biggest reason, and his championship Bulls teams. There's a reason why they were already being followed every where they went, people around the world knew Magic, Larry, and Michael especially. It just carried over though from there, and put the world in a tizzy, when watching Mike in the finals all those years.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

ONe more Key to remember about people choosing certain player for greatest of all time. You have to include memorable moments. And there is no question LeBron comes up extremely short in those trade mark moments from regular season , all star, and playoffs to finals compared to the likes of Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan. Really LBJ IMO only has one in his career so far. And a few other smaller moments, but only one trade mark moment at this point. That's something he's going to have to build as his career continues, because those other 3 guy's have mountains of trade mark/memorable moments. Plus they were all champions on top of it.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Michael Jordan -is- considered the GOAT by a almost unanimous majority. Even the NBA itself says he's the GOAT.

The only players some *logical* people might want to argue about would be :

Wilt Chamberlain : Wasn't the offensive three-second rule added because of him? Anyway, he wasn't so dominant against Bill Russell as he was against the crappy teams.

Kareem : The guy played *20 years* in the NBA. That's how he broke records. That about says it all about Kareem. Yeah, he won 6 rings, but only 2 Finals MVP's. 

Bill Russell : 11 rings. Okay, but I still say he's one of the most overrated players in history. Fewer teams, shorter playoffs, and *multiple* Hall Of Fame players surrounding him. In 1958-59 there were a whopping 8 teams in the league, in 65-66 there were a grand total of.....*9 teams.*


notice how all of those guys are BIG MEN. Jordan changed the basketball world. 

I didn't even talk about Jordan's defense. He's one of the greatest perimeter defenders OF ALL TIME. That is absolutely amazing for such a talented offensive player. He had it all. He had NO weaknesses. He was fundamental AND flashy. How about leading the league in scoring AND winning a defensive player of the year *in the same season*?

If you go down a list of every NBA expert, player, fan, coach, and GM, you will hear so many "Michael Jordan" ..... it would probably reach 99%.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> Michael Jordan -is- considered the GOAT by a almost unanimous majority. Even the NBA itself says he's the GOAT.
> 
> *The only players some logical people might want to argue about would be :*
> 
> *Wilt Chamberlain* : Wasn't the offensive three-second rule added because of him?
> 
> *Kareem* : The guy played *20 years* in the NBA. That's how he broke records. That about says it all about Kareem. Yeah, he won 6 rings, but only 2 Finals MVP's.
> 
> *Bill Russell* : 11 rings. Okay, but I still say he's one of the most overrated players in history. Fewer teams, shorter playoffs, and *multiple* Hall Of Fame players surrounding him. In 1958-59 there were a whopping 8 teams in the league, in 65-66 there were a grand total of.....*9 teams.*
> 
> 
> notice how all of those guys are BIG MEN. Jordan changed the basketball world.
> 
> If you go down a list of every NBA expert, player, fan, coach, and GM, you will hear so many "Michael Jordan" ..... it would probably reach 99%.



Magic?


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> Michael Jordan -is- considered the GOAT by a almost unanimous majority. Even the NBA itself says he's the GOAT.
> 
> The only players some *logical* people might want to argue about would be :
> 
> Wilt Chamberlain : Wasn't the offensive three-second rule added because of him? Anyway, he wasn't so dominant against Bill Russell as he was against the crappy teams.
> 
> Kareem : The guy played *20 years* in the NBA. That's how he broke records. That about says it all about Kareem. Yeah, he won 6 rings, but only 2 Finals MVP's. Plus, he PLAYED against Michael Jordan. He lost. badly. Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Byron Scott, Sam Perkins, Vlade Divac and AC Green went down in 5 games. Lost 4-1 to Jordan's Bulls in that Finals..
> 
> Bill Russell : 11 rings. Okay, but I still say he's one of the most overrated players in history. Fewer teams, shorter playoffs, and *multiple* Hall Of Fame players surrounding him. In 1958-59 there were a whopping 8 teams in the league, in 65-66 there were a grand total of.....*9 teams.*
> 
> 
> notice how all of those guys are BIG MEN. Jordan changed the basketball world.
> 
> I didn't even talk about Jordan's defense. He's one of the greatest perimeter defenders OF ALL TIME. That is absolutely amazing for such a talented offensive player. He had it all. He had NO weaknesses. He was fundamental AND flashy. How about leading the league in scoring AND winning a defensive player of the year *in the same season*?
> 
> If you go down a list of every NBA expert, player, fan, coach, and GM, you will hear so many "Michael Jordan" ..... it would probably reach 99%.


Kareem didn't play in the 90-91 finals. He would have been 44 at the time dude. He retired in 88-89. And by 90-91 Magic was well past his prime at that time was well, and so was Worthy.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Kareem left in 89, my mistake


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Young Mike, come fly with me.

Check out a young MJ dunking from the foul line, and his head level with the basketball rim, around the 2 minute mark.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



S2theONIC said:


> Magic?


No doubt Magics popularity was hurt by his shortened career, and the fact he admitted to having the HIV virus. Still IMO Magic Johnson is in the top 5 of all time greatest players.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

but Magic was only 31, going on 32 years old in the 91 Finals.

By comparison, Jordan was only 3 years younger.

That's nothing. Plus, Jordan continued to dominate the NBA into his mid-30's, winning his final championship in 1998 at age 35. Magic was only 31 in 1991 Finals. Not past his prime AT ALL.


----------



## bball2223

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> actually, I will say Kevin Garnett was just as good as LeBron coming out of high school.





:laugh:Ever heard of Ronnie Fields? Some people thought he was the best player on Garnett's High School team. LeBron is the most NBA ready player ever out of HS and will go down as the most successful HS to Pro's player ever.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> It started there, but MJ was the biggest reason, and his championship Bulls teams. There's a reason why they were already being followed every where they went, people around the world knew Magic, Larry, and Michael especially. It just carried over though from there, and put the world in a tizzy, when watching Mike in the finals all those years.


The Bulls had Jordan and their dynasty began at the time of the '92 Olympics (they would win six of the next 8). If Houston had got its act together a couple of years earlier Hakeem would have been the world's most popular player for exactly the same reason.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Jordan was already regarded as the league's best player and most popular player even before he won his first championship.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

rofl, too entertaining.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> The Bulls had Jordan and their dynasty began at the time of the '92 Olympics (they would win six of the next 8). If Houston had got its act together a couple of years earlier Hakeem would have been the world's most popular player for exactly the same reason.


I disagree about Hakeem, his team also had opportunities to win long before the mid 90s. Hakeem also never had the personality, and game people fawn over to be considered the most popular player ever.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> Jordan was already regarded as the league's best player and most popular player even before he won his first championship.


No he wasn't. A lot of people didn't even agree that he was the best 2 guard in the league at that point. He had to beat Drexler in the second title to start to put away doubters. It was really after that title when he went to the Dream Team, that he transitioned to the throne. That was when Bird and Magic both bowed out, and while on the dream team everyone was like "jordan's the best", and by the time he won the third title, people considered him the best. By the time he came back for the second three-peat, it was over that time period that his legend had grown to possibly best ever. After he won the second 3 championships, people said for sure he was the best ever.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I disagree about Hakeem, his team also had opportunities to win long before the mid 90s.


Not really. In his second season in the league the Rockets lost their starting point guard and his backup before the playoffs, and they took probably the greatest team ever to 6 games in the Finals. Then Sampson was done and Olajuwon lost more teammates to drugs, which pretty much wiped out Houston's chances of being contenders for the next few years.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> No he wasn't. A lot of people didn't even agree that he was the best 2 guard in the league at that point. He had to beat Drexler in the second title to start to put away doubters. It was really after that title when he went to the Dream Team, that he transitioned to the throne. That was when Bird and Magic both bowed out, and while on the dream team everyone was like "jordan's the best", and by the time he won the third title, people considered him the best. By the time he came back for the second three-peat, it was over that time period that his legend had grown to possibly best ever. After he won the second 3 championships, people said for sure he was the best ever.


Most people thought of Jordan as the best player in the game before he won his first title. There were people arguing for Drexler in '92, but they were a minority -- kind of like those who still argue that Kobe is better than LeBron. Really, Jordan was considered the league's best player by the late '80s.

It was after the Olympics that everyone started calling him the GOAT.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> No he wasn't. A lot of people didn't even agree that he was the best 2 guard in the league at that point. He had to beat Drexler in the second title to start to put away doubters. It was really after that title when he went to the Dream Team, that he transitioned to the throne. That was when Bird and Magic both bowed out, and while on the dream team everyone was like "jordan's the best", and by the time he won the third title, people considered him the best. By the time he came back for the second three-peat, it was over that time period that his legend had grown to possibly best ever. After he won the second 3 championships, people said for sure he was the best ever.


you could not be more misinformed


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Hakeem said:


> Most people thought of Jordan as the best player in the game before he won his first title. There were people arguing for Drexler in '92, but they were a minority -- kind of like those who still argue that Kobe is better than LeBron. Really, Jordan was considered the league's best player by the late '80s.
> 
> It was after the Olympics that everyone started calling him the GOAT.


it's really not at all like kobe and lebron.

in '92, the thought was that drexler could challenge jordan and that the series would be a compelling one. jordan was firmly established ahead of drexler, and was for years. kobe / lebron might be more akin to magic / jordan, where there's a passing of the guard (no pun). 

i don't really think the olympics cemented anything about jordan, other than he was the most famous athlete. it's not like he outperformed at the olympics. but after repeating as champ and performing at his level, he answered all critics.

which is why it's obviously not out of the question for lebron to pass jordan in the minds of many. perform at a high enough level, win enough, and convince that he's the updated version.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Lebron has been really awesome in playoffs, really doing GOAT numbers, breaking 50 year old shooting records (2-18 and all that) and I really think it's time that we stop being delusional about Mikeal Jordaine.


James clearly surpassed him. I mean - let's be realistic - Jordaine could only toss chalk at the scorers table level.


Look at Bron O_O

Who else has realized this?

Not to mention the broom collection. Jordaine doesn't have any, yet Bron is so young and he already has one. 

That's GOAT.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lakeshows said:


> Kareem didn't play in the 90-91 finals. He would have been 44 at the time dude. He retired in 88-89. And by 90-91 Magic was well past his prime at that time was well, and so was Worthy.


magic was mvp in '89 and '90. '91 he wasn't exactly past his prime. worthy i think was more past his prime physically.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Lebron has been really awesome in playoffs, really doing GOAT numbers, breaking 50 year old shooting records (2-18 and all that) and I really think it's time that we stop being delusional about Mikeal Jordaine.
> 
> 
> James clearly surpassed him. I mean - let's be realistic - Jordaine could only toss chalk at the scorers table level.
> 
> 
> Look at Bron O_O
> 
> Who else has realized this?
> 
> Not to mention the broom collection. Jordaine doesn't have any, yet Bron is so young and he already has one.
> 
> That's GOAT.


what is the broom collection?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I was referring how many times did Jordan get swept clean out of the Finals.


Hollinger's wet dream statistic, PER, is in Jordan's favor. His PER is much higher that James' when you compare their first 3 years in playoffs. And let's not talk about the fact that Jordan's career playoff FG% is higher than the best FG% in the playoffs ever by James.

And we could go on and on. 

The stupid "James done it before" argument is out of this discussion, because, well, as I recall, James started to play in the NBA at much younger age than MJ did.

So let's compare their seasons rather than their age. And you'll still come up short in almost every category.

Jordan's PER was the same or sometimes HIGHER in playoffs than in regular season.

LOL @ anyone thinking the same about James.

But hey, this shock thread serves its purpose, people are clicking.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

it's much more impressive to get swept out of the first round than swept out of the finals. 

noone is saying lebron has been better than jordan.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> I was referring how many times did Jordan get swept clean out of the Finals.
> 
> 
> Hollinger's wet dream statistic, PER, is in Jordan's favor. His PER is much higher that James' when you compare their first 3 years in playoffs. And let's not talk about the fact that Jordan's career playoff FG% is higher than the best FG% in the playoffs ever by James.
> 
> And we could go on and on.
> 
> The stupid "James done it before" argument is out of this discussion, because, well, as I recall, James started to play in the NBA at much younger age than MJ did.
> 
> So let's compare their seasons rather than their age. And you'll still come up short in almost every category.
> 
> Jordan's PER was the same or sometimes HIGHER in playoffs than in regular season.
> 
> LOL @ anyone thinking the same about James.
> 
> But hey, this shock thread serves its purpose, people are clicking.


No one said he was better then Jordan.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Hakeem said:


> Not really. In his second season in the league the Rockets lost their starting point guard and his backup before the playoffs, and they took probably the greatest team ever to 6 games in the Finals. Then Sampson was done and Olajuwon lost more teammates to drugs, which pretty much wiped out Houston's chances of being contenders for the next few years.


That sounds like an opportunity when you are playing in the finals long before the mid 90s. For the people that don't know, Hakeem played along side Ralph Sampson, and the two were dubbed the Twin Towers, long before David Robinson, and Tim Duncan. The two led the Rockets to the 1986 NBA Finals where they lost in six games to the Boston Celtics. So again yes Hakeem and the Rockets had opportunities to win before the mid 90s, when Jordan was out of the league for one year (lucky rockets), and the second year back for Jordan was knocked out by the rising Magic (shaq,penny,grant exbull and anderson), which only fed MJ's fire even more, and the Bulls went on to 3 peat again, of course adding a guy like Dennis Rodman to your front line to replace Dickey Simpkins is going to make a great deal of difference. 

No doub that team MJ was on was an anomaly. That Bulls team only won 45 games that year, bigger reason MJ missed nearly the entire season, and the departure of Horace Grant. No doubt in my mind you put a prime MJ back on that Bulls Squad, have either Horace Grant, or Dennis Rodman, they win around 65-70 games, and we have one of the best championship rounds ever, as It would be a great series of Chicago vs. Houston, but I would bet my money on Jordan over anyone when it comes to the highest stakes to win the championship.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

bulls/jordan fans do tend to take it for granted that after losing their all-star pf, they were able to replace him with another all-star (hof caliber) pf a year later (for will purdue). that while jordan was away they added kukoc and harper. 

i'd put my money on jordan over anyone when it comes to the highest stakes. but it doesn't hurt to do so when he's also got pippen, rodman and kukoc, and the other guy doesn't. david robinson for example had rodman and sean elliott.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> bulls/jordan fans do tend to take it for granted that after losing their all-star pf, they were able to replace him with another all-star (hof caliber) pf a year later (for will purdue). that while jordan was away they added kukoc and harper.
> 
> i'd put my money on jordan over anyone when it comes to the highest stakes. but it doesn't hurt to do so when he's also got pippen, rodman and kukoc, and the other guy doesn't. david robinson for example had rodman and sean elliott.


The Chicago Bulls beat better teams in their championship run IMO than the Championship winning Houston Rockets. The same great knicks teams the Bulls beat with a prime MJ, lost to the Rockets in 7 games, and many believe the Knicks choked that series away, something you can never say about MJ, Mike wasn't a guy to choke when the stakes were the highest. Also every championship team has great players or the perfect combination of chemistry and role players who play excellent, that shouldn't be any slight to Michael Jordan, and many people should understand that Michael Jordan against every single elite team/player always rose to the challenge. 

I seriously doubt that would of changed with a younger Mike in his prime facing the Houston Rockets. I still very much believe it would of been a great series, but the tough series is exactly what MJ lived for. Dude is in his 40s' and has a bittersweet taste in his mouth about being inducted into the hall of fame, why because in his mind he's still a baller wanting to compete. Dude is the sickest person in the living world when it comes to being a competitor, people talk about Garnett, and Kobe Bryant's will to compete, and those will are something to behold and amazing when on display, but Micheal Jordan is the gate keeper when it comes to the greatest will to compete.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I mean, this is such a phony thread...lol

But seriously, I would like to buy two things from you forum experts (too bad you don't have a coaching/GM gig in the NBA so you could actually cash in on your expertize and vast knowledge) ;

- time traveling machine; because obviously you went to the year 2020 and saw that James will win multiple titles, three peats, won't get injured and basically NBA could easily take a 10 year rest because he will win it all anyway

- universal NBA game simulator; I was always impressed how accurate you guys are when it comes to comparing teams from today and teams from tomorrow

For instance, saying things like

"72 Win Bulls wouldn't dominate that much these days".

Wow, if only I had the chance to transfer that Bulls team to 2009., without them aging of course, and let them play 82 games against current teams and then make that statement.

Amazing things happen on this amazingly clairvoyant forum.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

not to mention, Jordan lost 1 1/2 seasons to retirement 

his stats could be higher


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



The Big Youngistotle said:


> This subject is an enormous joke. First of all, LeBron is yet to win ONE title. Can we at least table the discussion about LeBron coming even close to Jordan until then. Oh by the way, I don't even think LeBron has (or will in my mind) pass Magic Johnson. Want to know why? What did Magic do in his first year in the league? Oh yeah...won an NBA title. You want to claim it was because he played on a team with Kareem? Then you must've forgotten the clinic he put on in the NBA Finals in game six when Kareem didn't play and magic played Center. I think he had 40 some odd points. Mind you...he was a rookie, and he was playing against a team led by the great Dr. J.
> 
> Ok..so let's get back to LeBron and Jordan. Let's take this discussion away from the stats and titles (cause quite frankly, LeBron isn't there). Let's look at what Jordan did to the game of basketball. *I don't know how old many of you were during the 80's and the 90's, but I can tell you that basketball was strictly an American sport. There was no country that came even close to caring two ____ about it outside of the contiguous United States.* What Jordan did was to popularize the game in such a way that we have a Tony Parker, or a Dirk. I remember when I was 12 years old we had a Japanese foreign exchange student stay at our house for two weeks. This guy did not understand a lick of english for the most part, but he knew two words. Those were "Coke" and "Michael Jordan." If that doesn't put it in perspective, I don't know what ever will. And that's why His Airness is in a class of his own.


I was, And you are wrong.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> No he wasn't. A lot of people didn't even agree that he was the best 2 guard in the league at that point. He had to beat Drexler in the second title to start to put away doubters. It was really after that title when he went to the Dream Team, that he transitioned to the throne. That was when Bird and Magic both bowed out, and while on the dream team everyone was like "jordan's the best", and by the time he won the third title, people considered him the best. By the time he came back for the second three-peat, it was over that time period that his legend had grown to possibly best ever. After he won the second 3 championships, people said for sure he was the best ever.


watch the video i posted, fast forward to 8:40

"He was up at the top, most popular athelete for the last 8, 9, 10 years"

They are talking in 1996 terms, so that goes back to 1986-1988. way before his first ring

thank you very much


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I get this disturbing feeling that this microwave generation (everything now, asap) is more than comfortable of already placing James on NBAs Greatest Starting 5 list...






LOL


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> it's an opinion shared by over 99% of all basketball fans.


He is the undisputed GOAT now, and I don't think anybody argues that. 

It is absolutely delusional however to think that Michael Jordan will be considered the best player ever by 99% of all basketball fans _forever_. An undisputed GOAT that lasts a decade or two is pretty darn impressive, but if a guy who averaged over 50 points per game in one season, and led the league in rebounding one season, and led the league in assists one season, and to this day is still one of the biggest freak athletes ever even by today's standards, if he can be dethroned as the GOAT, then so can Jordan. 

That's not to say he won't always be in the argument, but he *will* lose his undisputed status one day.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> I get this disturbing feeling that this microwave generation (everything now, asap) is more than comfortable of already placing James on NBAs Greatest Starting 5 list...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL


Why do you base so many of your arguments on assumptions of what people mean? No one said. The fact that you're implying they are, then laughing at those people is ridiculous.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> it's really not at all like kobe and lebron.
> 
> in '92, the thought was that drexler could challenge jordan and that the series would be a compelling one. jordan was firmly established ahead of drexler, and was for years. kobe / lebron might be more akin to magic / jordan, where there's a passing of the guard (no pun).


I recall having this discussion before.

There were people saying that Drexler was better, mainly because they perceived him to be a better team player. Drexler was viewed as the ultimate all-round guy -- best passing and rebounding SG in the game, and someone who could match Jordan's athleticism. It didn't hurt that he'd had some huge games against Jordan before, like no one else.

Jordan was actually easily the better player, but there were definitely people who thought Drexler was more valuable. He did get an eighth of the first place MVP votes.

Kobe-LeBron may be a passing of the torch thing, but that's only because of their respective ages -- Kobe nearing the end of his prime, LeBron starting his. It's not relevant to how valuable people think each player is. Really, there are few outside of hardcore Kobe fans who believe there is a serious argument to be made for him over LeBron this season. It was the same with Drexler-Jordan -- there were believers (non-believers?), but they were the fringe. Not a tiny fringe, but still on the outside.



> i don't really think the olympics cemented anything about jordan, other than he was the most famous athlete. it's not like he outperformed at the olympics. but after repeating as champ and performing at his level, he answered all critics.


It was from everyone at the Olympics talking about how Jordan was the alpha-dog and undisputed best player there. How he outplayed everyone in practice. Being the number one guy on the team combined with that team destroying the rest of the world => GOAT.

Obviously there wasn't a watershed moment when the world suddenly decided that. But if you had to point to one thing I'd say it was that rather than any one title.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> That sounds like an opportunity when you are playing in the finals long before the mid 90s.


It's also an opportunity when you're playing in the First Round that year. Every situation is an opportunity. Your point?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Hakeem said:


> It's also an opportunity when you're playing in the First Round that year. Every situation is an opportunity. Your point?


That it is, but the difference is that Houston Rockets team was solid, and had more than one star on it, you can't say the same for the 86 Bulls, that was a one man show. You give a young Mike a 7'4" Power Forward/Center named Ralph Sampson, and I'm sure a few of those games the Celtics barely squeaked out would turn into big upset win's for the Bulls. Mike was that good hakeem. Move out Dave Corzine, put Ralph Sampson in there at C, Oakley at PF. Woolridge at SF, MJ at PG, and Paxson/Gervin and all the guards. Would of turned that series from some MJ epic performances, to an epic series no doubt.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> That it is, but the difference is that Houston Rockets team was solid, and had more than one star on it, you can't say the same for the 86 Bulls, that was a one man show.


And that's why they lost in 6 rather than getting swept.



> You give a young Mike a 7'4" Power Forward/Center named Ralph Sampson, and I'm sure a few of those games the Celtics barely squeaked out would turn into big upset win's for the Bulls. Mike was that good hakeem. Move out Dave Corzine, put Ralph Sampson in there at C, Oakley at PF. Woolridge at SF, MJ at PG, and Paxson/Gervin and all the guards. Would of turned that series from some MJ epic performances, to an epic series no doubt.


Similarly, you replace Mitchell Wiggins or Buck Johnson with Scottie Pippen, and the Rockets win three more titles.

Your statement that Olajuwon had opportunities to win titles in the '80s doesn't really mean anything.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Here's a fun exercise. Without cheating and looking it up, how many players can you name from the starting lineup of the Cavs team that Lebron took to the finals?

Looking back on it, that team had no business whatsoever being in the NBA finals. It was only because of the singular greatness of Lebron against an overrated Pistons team that they got there, and got blown off the map by a real championship team in the Spurs.

Here's hoping this year is diffrent. Though I think there is definitely a talent deficit overall between a healthy Lakers team and a healthy Cavs team.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Hakeem said:


> And that's why they lost in 6 rather than getting swept.
> 
> 
> Similarly, you replace Mitchell Wiggins or Buck Johnson with Scottie Pippen, and the Rockets win three more titles.
> 
> Your statement that Olajuwon had opportunities to win titles in the '80s doesn't really mean anything.


However MJ never lost when in the finals, when given a great team. Can't say the same about Hakeem.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> However MJ never lost when in the finals, when given a great team. Can't say the same about Hakeem.


losing before the finals is worse than losing in the finals.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> However MJ never lost when in the finals, when given a great team. Can't say the same about Hakeem.


MJ never faced the '86 Celtics in the Finals. When he did face the '86 Celtics, his team was swept.

Not that team success should come into it, but just continuing along the same ultimately pointless line of thought.


----------



## John

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I just notice there was no one as beautiful as you are. But may I ask you a qeustion? If I were the starting lineup in the 07 team, would Cavs went to the NBA final?


----------



## f22egl

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> Here's a fun exercise. Without cheating and looking it up, how many players can you name from the starting lineup of the Cavs team that Lebron took to the finals?
> 
> Looking back on it, that team had no business whatsoever being in the NBA finals. It was only because of the singular greatness of Lebron against an overrated Pistons team that they got there, and got blown off the map by a real championship team in the Spurs.
> 
> Here's hoping this year is diffrent. Though I think there is definitely a talent deficit overall between a healthy Lakers team and a healthy Cavs team.


Ooh let me try! Larry Hughes, Sasha Pavlovic, Drew Gooden, and Big Z. Although none of those players are great offensively, the Cavs certainly were one of the best defensive teams and that's even before LeBron picked up his defense like he did this year. They have to get SOME credit; still most goes to LeBron. BTW, would you say that Mike Brown outcoached Flip Saunders or were the Cavs simply the superior team with the best player on the court?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> losing before the finals is worse than losing in the finals.


Something Hakeem's teams did a lot as well.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Hakeem said:


> MJ never faced the '86 Celtics in the Finals. When he did face the '86 Celtics, his team was swept.
> 
> Not that team success should come into it, but just continuing along the same ultimately pointless line of thought.


Yep MJ did lose to those same C's, but he didn't have a front line or anyone for that matter that could sniff Sampsons or Hakeems jock strap. Plus that Houston team had a lot of good basketball players, it wasn't just the front court. You give MJ hakeem or sampson, they turn the celtics on to a more epic ECF's than the finals that Houston team gave them, but that of course is just because MJ is better than Hakeem the Dream, or anyone else for that matter that has dawned a Houston uniform, and yes I'm well aware of all the great players that have played for the Rockets.


----------



## Hakeem

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Yep MJ did lose to those same C's, but he didn't have a front line or anyone for that matter that could sniff Sampsons or Hakeems jock strap.


...Which is why they got swept rather than losing in 6 games. Wait -- hasn't this been said before?



> Plus that Houston team had a lot of good basketball players, it wasn't just the front court. You give MJ hakeem or sampson...


You give them Hakeem? HTH does that work? 



> ...they turn the celtics on to a more epic ECF's than the finals that Houston team gave them, but that of course is just because MJ is better than Hakeem the Dream, or anyone else for that matter that has dawned a Houston uniform, and yes I'm well aware of all the great players that have played for the Rockets.


Hakeem could've beaten up Jordan.


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Lebron has been really awesome in playoffs, really doing GOAT numbers, breaking 50 year old shooting records (2-18 and all that)


You do know that Jordan once shot 3-18 against the Knicks in the playoffs right?

Anyways...

Lebron is arguably the player with the most potential to take Jordan's mantle but it is going to take a lot. Some people say Lebron does not need to win more championships than Jordan...I agree if he wins 7 MVPs nad has 3-4 rings to go with that. Jordan has 6 rings, 5 MVPs, 6 FMVPs... If Lebron wins 2-3 MVPs and 2-4 rings to me he will be on Magic and Bird greatness-tier. 1-2 MVPs and 1-2 champions = Oscar/Hakeem's tier. It's still way too early IMO to even talk about Jordan unless we are talking about individual seasons. 

Let Lebron catch up to Shaq and Duncan before mentioning Jordan's name so confidently.

The only people who took Drexler over Jordan were people who wanted to go against the norm. Drexler was in no form better or more valuable than Jordan. The only thing I remember the few kept arguing in Drexler's favour was his 3 point shooting and that is why MJ destroyed the Blazers like he did in the 1st game. That was not coincidence. It is the same when Jordan pulled off 11 triple doubles in 12 games the same time people were saying how much better Magic was to Jordan.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Not to mention the broom collection. Jordaine doesn't have any, yet Bron is so young and he already has one.


Jordan actually has 2, so he even leads LeBron in that category.



DNKO said:


> Hollinger's wet dream statistic, PER, is in Jordan's favor. His PER is much higher that James' when you compare their first 3 years in playoffs.


And, ironically enough, Jordan's first three postseasons combined lasted three fewer games than that scrub LeBron's first postseason. That's the sort of efficiency that Chucker LeBron will never equal.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> That it is, but the difference is that Houston Rockets team was solid, and had more than one star on it, you can't say the same for the 86 Bulls, that was a one man show. You give a young Mike a 7'4" Power Forward/Center named Ralph Sampson, and I'm sure a few of those games the Celtics barely squeaked out would turn into big upset win's for the Bulls. Mike was that good hakeem. Move out Dave Corzine, put Ralph Sampson in there at C, Oakley at PF. Woolridge at SF, MJ at PG, and Paxson/Gervin and all the guards. Would of turned that series from some MJ epic performances, to an epic series no doubt.


The '86 Rockets had one real star, a very gimpy pseudo-star (in fact 1986 was Ralph Tintin's last healthy season, he'd never play a full year again), and a bunch of roleplayers. It took the Rockets years to put the right mix around Hakeem after '86.



23AJ said:


> Yep MJ did lose to those same C's, but he didn't have a front line or anyone for that matter that could sniff Sampsons or Hakeems jock strap. Plus that Houston team had a lot of good basketball players


No it didn't. It had Hakeem, a power forward whose career was about to end, and then the same sort of roleplayers that Jordan couldn't take anywhere in Chicago.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> Jordan actually has 2, so he even leads LeBron in that category.


The Bulls got swept in 86 and 87. In 86, that was Jordan's 2nd year in the league, and he was injured and started only 7 games. The Bulls were a scrub lottery team when they drafted MJ in 84.

So basically, MJ came back at the end of the season and played the Celtics. Coincidentally, this is the series MJ set the record for most points scored in a playoff game, in only Jordan's 2nd season and while coming off of injury that made him miss most of the season, on a scrub team.


and the next sweep was the very next season vs the Celtics once again in 1987. Same Larry Bird Celtics. One of the greatest teams of all time. Top 3 all time.






ehmunro said:


> And, ironically enough, Jordan's first three postseasons combined lasted three fewer games than that scrub LeBron's first postseason. That's the sort of efficiency that Chucker LeBron will never equal.


Nice try, but you got caught red handed.

1) The NBA changed the playoff format for the 2002-2003 NBA season. The first round was extended to a Best of 7 instead of a Best of 5. So naturally, the Cavs play more games.

2) Jordan led a scrub lottery team to the playoffs from day one. In his rookie season, they made the playoffs. Michael Jordan NEVER missed the playoffs in his entire 13 year Bulls career.

LeBron didn't even make the playoffs until 2006, his 3rd season. And he played the Washington Wizards in a best of 7 games, not best of 5. 

Larry Bird Celtics > Washington Wizards.

LeBron would have been swept too.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> The Bulls got swept in 86 and 95. In 86, that was Jordan's 2nd year in the league, and he was injured and started only 7 games. The Bulls were a scrub lottery team when they drafted MJ in 84.
> 
> So basically, MJ came back at the end of the season and played the Celtics. Coincidentally, this is the series MJ set the record for most points scored in a playoff game, in only Jordan's 2nd season and while coming off of injury that made him miss most of the season, on a scrub team.


Soooooo, what you're saying is that in two of his first three years in the that NBA Jordan's teams got swept out of the playoffs, giving Jordan the lead in that category over LeBron. See? I was right, LeBron sucks so badly he can't even match MJ there.



ChrisRichards said:


> Nice try, but you got caught red handed.
> 
> 1) The NBA changed the playoff format for the 2002-2003 NBA season. The first round was extended to a Best of 7 instead of a Best of 5. So naturally, the Cavs play more games.
> 
> 2) Jordan led a scrub lottery team to the playoffs from day one. In his rookie season, they made the playoffs. Michael Jordan NEVER missed the playoffs in his entire 12 year Bulls career.
> 
> LeBron didn't even make the playoffs until 2006, his 3rd season. And he played the Washington Wizards in a best of 7 games, not best of 5. The Larry Bird Celtics > Washington Wizards. LeBron would have been swept too.


I got "caught redhanded" at what? Telling you the truth? In his first three playoff series Jordan's Bulls managed _one_ victory. One. Une. Um. Uno. Unu. Eins. Én. Satu. That's it. One win, ten games. As you're seeking to correct me here, I will thank you for letting us all know that you were born in the eighties and probably have no memories at all of Jordan until the second threepeat. See, I wouldn't expect Jordan to have won anything because back in the 80s, everyone made playoffs. 16 teams went to the postseason in a 23 team league (approximately 70%). So ****ty teams, like the Bulls, went every year. 

When James entered the NBA, it was 16 of 30. When the Cavs made the playoffs, they actually had to be kind of good. LeBron led his team into the second round. Meaning that in LeBron's first postseason the Cavs won seven times as many games as Jordan's Bulls did in their first three tries. Let's have a look at the numbers, shall we? In the 2006 playoffs the Cavs went 7-6, in the 1985-87 playoffs the Bulls went 1-9. What does it mean? Nothing. Just like DNKO's frantic claims that the Cavs' getting swept in the finals "proved" that James was a scrub was utter nonsense.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> The Bulls got swept in 86 and 87. In 86, that was Jordan's 2nd year in the league, and he was injured and started only 7 games. The Bulls were a scrub lottery team when they drafted MJ in 84.
> 
> So basically, MJ came back at the end of the season and played the Celtics. Coincidentally, this is the series MJ set the record for most points scored in a playoff game, in only Jordan's 2nd season and while coming off of injury that made him miss most of the season, on a scrub team.


the bulls were a 27 win team before drafting jordan. they made the playoffs at 38-44 his rookie year. they made the playoffs at 30-52 his 2nd year (when he missed most of the season). 40-42 his 3rd season.

the cavs won 17 games before drafting lebron. 35 wins as a rookie. 42 the next. 50 the 3rd.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



> The Bulls got swept in 86 and 95. In 86, that was Jordan's 2nd year in the league, and he was injured and started only 7 games. The Bulls were a scrub lottery team when they drafted MJ in 84.


It's funny because in Jordan's 2nd season he was 23 years old. LeBron just turned 24 a few months ago and led the Cavs to the finals at 22. Comparing them by season and comparing them by actual age really creates two different curves of development. Probably because LeBron was a teenager in his 2nd season.


----------



## ChrisRichards

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> Soooooo, what you're saying is that in two of his first three years in the that NBA Jordan's teams got swept out of the playoffs, giving Jordan the lead in that category over LeBron. See? I was right, LeBron sucks so badly he can't even match MJ there.


At least Jordan led his team to the playoffs from the start. LeBron didn't make it until his 3rd year.

and the Bulls played the Larry Bird Celtics, compare that to LeBron playing the Wizards.

Considering that, your point is just nitpicking.






ehmunro said:


> I got "caught redhanded" at what? Telling you the truth? In his first three playoff series Jordan's Bulls managed _one_ victory. One. Une. Um. Uno. Unu. Eins. Én. Satu. That's it.


Nice try to change the topic, but that's not what I argued against. You are trying to change your position.

You said :

"And, ironically enough, Jordan's first three postseasons combined lasted three fewer games than that scrub LeBron's first postseason"

That is to say, that LeBron played more games than MJ did. Obviously you were hiding the fact that the NBA changed the rules in 02-03. Naturally the Cavs are going to play more games due to rule change.

You did not mention anything about Jordan's win total.






ehmunro said:


> As you're seeking to correct me here, I will thank you for letting us all know that you were born in the eighties and probably have no memories at all of Jordan until the second threepeat.


Incorrect. I have seen the first 3peat and over the years I have gone back and watched *many* of MJ's games from the 80s. To give you a sense, I am currently making a video which I talked about in this thread, in which I went back and studied game film from several games from 1980s. 



ehmunro said:


> See, I wouldn't expect Jordan to have won anything because back in the 80s, everyone made playoffs. 16 teams went to the postseason in a 23 team league (approximately 70%). So ****ty teams, like the Bulls, went every year.


He played the Celtics. Larry Bird Celtics. One of the greatest teams ever. I wouldn't expect MJ to beat them in only his 2nd and 3rd years in the league with a lottery building team. 

Those are some serious unjust/unrealistic/biased standards you got there.



ehmunro said:


> When James entered the NBA, it was 16 of 30. When the Cavs made the playoffs, they actually had to be kind of good.


Is that why LeBron and the Cavs reached the Finals and got swept? In MJ's day, you had to be pretty good to reach the Finals.

In the long history of the NBA, only 7 other teams have been swept in the Finals. seven. One of those teams that got swept are the Magic Lakers (Magic got injured in the series, though), a team that would have destroyed the 07 Cavs. So it doesn't look good.




ehmruno said:


> LeBron led his team into the second round. Meaning that in LeBron's first postseason the Cavs won seven times as many games as Jordan's Bulls did in their first three tries.


If MJ played the Washington Wizards instead of the Larry Bird Celtics, he would have gotten to round 2 also.

Once again, you are comparing the freaking Wizards to one of the top 3 best all time teams.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

to be honest, it's silly to tear either guy down to prop up the other. they both have their advantages.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ChrisRichards said:


> At least Jordan led his team to the playoffs from the start. LeBron didn't make it until his 3rd year.


And because of the fact that only half the teams go to the playoffs these days, James had to lead a team to 50 wins to get to the postseason. If 22 teams went to the postseason these days (normalizing to 70%) then the Cavs would have been in the playoffs from James rookie year onward. 



ChrisRichards said:


> Nice try to change the topic, but that's not what I argued against. You are trying to change your position.


What are you babbling about now? My point was kind of clear. It's the same one every time we go through this stupid ****ing argument. Jordan didn't win dick his first three years in the NBA. He barely managed to lead the Bulls to a single game victory in the postseason. The reason that James first postseason lasted longer than Jordan's first three is that he led the Cavs out of the first round. He got an extra seven games by nearly leading the Cavs over the defending Eastern Conference champions. Had Jordan managed to lead the Bulls out of the first round even once, it wouldn't be an argument. 

But, of course, the reason that DNKO chose his misleading data set is that in those days everyone used the same strategy to beat the Bulls. They let Jordan get his and concentrated on making sure that no one else got anything (the Celtics abused the Bulls back in those days because it was relatively easy to shut the rest of that squad down). Jordan posted gaudy numbers against the Celtics because they didn't give a **** about what Michael scored, merely dispatching the Bulls in three games.




ChrisRichards said:


> Obviously you were hiding the fact that the NBA changed the rules in 02-03. ...
> 
> You did not mention anything about Jordan's win total.


Are you daft? How successfully can one "hide" the different formats when specifically mentioning that the Bulls managed to lose three series in a combined total of ten games? The different format is pretty plainly implied in the joke (since the entire thing was my way of mocking DNKO's "Chucker LeBron" claims).




ChrisRichards said:


> I have seen the first 3peat and over the years I have gone back and watched *many* of MJ's games from the 80s. To give you a sense, I am currently making a video which I talked about in this thread, in which I went back and studied game film from several games from 1980s.


In other words, I'm right, and your memories of the first threepeat came from watching an ESPN special and you're going to put together a highlight reel from what few classic games that anyone saved from the era that you've actually seen. Unlike you, I was there.



ChrisRichards said:


> Is that why LeBron and the Cavs reached the Finals and got swept? In MJ's day, you had to be pretty good to reach the Finals.


That would be the era when the NBA added six teams in seven years? That era? As for James, he led a pretty ****ty team to the finals on his third try. You can denounce it if you want, but the fact is that the Cavs made it to the finals and lost to the NBA's reigning dynasty. The Spurs left the rest of that Cavs team open to hit as many shots as they could/would, and focused everything on not letting James beat them. Sure enough James didn't, and the rest of that roster couldn't.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LMAO @ misleading data set.

First you were totally delusional in that HGH discussion. Now you're doing it again. Goddamn.

And as for Jordans first 3 year failures in playoff, very laughable of you to point out how he lost to Celtics, which were basically the ultimate team of the East, only really comparable to Lakers in the west.

And Jordan had cast of players like Steve Colter and Brad Sellers. Really on par with McHale and Bird

LMAO you're a joke.

And yes James is a choker, he proved it more than once and yes - misleading data set is also him going for that epic 2-18 and I think over 60 minutes without field goal (also NBA all time record)

Those are all irrelevant and misleading stats.

But what it is relevant is that Jordan didn't win anything in his first 3 years playing against actual NBA champs packed with HOF players.

Kudos for your logic. It's very interesting.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> LMAO @ misleading data set.
> 
> First you were totally delusional in that HGH discussion. Now you're doing it again. Goddamn.
> 
> And as for Jordans first 3 year failures in playoff, very laughable of you to point out how he lost to Celtics, which were basically the ultimate team of the East, only really comparable to Lakers in the west.
> 
> And Jordan had cast of players like Steve Colter and Brad Sellers. Really on par with McHale and Bird
> 
> LMAO you're a joke.
> 
> And yes James is a choker, he proved it more than once and yes - misleading data set is also him going for that epic 2-18 and I think over 60 minutes without field goal (also NBA all time record)
> 
> Those are all irrelevant and misleading stats.
> 
> But what it is relevant is that Jordan didn't win anything in his first 3 years playing against actual NBA champs packed with HOF players.
> 
> Kudos for your logic. It's very interesting.


jordan was playing the champs because his teams didn't crack 40 wins. in lebron's 3rd year his team won 50 games. they actually had home court advantage. which they earned. 

again, the bulls were a 27 win team before drafting jordan. they made the playoffs at 38-44 his rookie year. they made the playoffs at 30-52 his 2nd year (when he missed most of the season). 40-42 his 3rd season.

the cavs won 17 games before drafting lebron. 35 wins as a rookie. 42 the next. 50 the 3rd.

it shows absolutely zero interest in an actual discussion of the topic if you're simply going to label lebron a choker. it's ridiculous. 

people get so threatened. stop being so vested in the topic and try and be rational. don't you have room on your wall for new posters?


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Judging from the last couple pages, it is apparently clear that kflo and ehmunro are the only ones here with any sense or knowledge of what they are talking about.

It always amazes me how people tend to remember players of the past as better than they actually were. It is more than reasonable to compare LeBron James to Michael Jordan and there is a great chance that LeBron will end up as the better player when it's all said and done. It is incredibly stupid to pretend that no player will ever be able to compare with Jordan. That is just not the case.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LMAO...

What's even more funnier is how people take MJ's ridiculous career for granted like it's some "slightly better than average" NBA career and bring up James (or anyone else) in comparison, meaning that Magic, Larry, and I'm not even trying go any further, are already basically "surpassed".

Wow you really bought into the hype well, Nike's marketing efforts are really doing it for you.

If James doesn't make a dynasty out of this team, this thread shouldn't be even viewable to anyone alive.

SMH @ the short-memory fandom.

6 titles in 8 years (ok, retirement...), OK, I'm very curious what will the situation be in 2017.

*waits for the "todays NBA is way more difficult and competitive" army to bust in

Unless refs don't foul out Dwight Howard at the end of each 1st quarter they'll play against Cavs (which is very likely to happen) he doesn't stand a chance of even getting to the Finals, let alone winning it.

And if James doesn't win the ring this year it's a choke and failure. There's no excuse of having a season like this, record like this and not win the title.

*waits


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> First you were totally delusional in that HGH discussion. Now you're doing it again. Goddamn.


Yeah, those scientists, _whose research studies on the impact of HGH_ that I linked to? They were obviously tripping on acid while conducting those studies, because you're the world's foremost scientific expert. :rofl:



DNKO said:


> And as for Jordans first 3 year failures in playoff, very laughable of you to point out how he lost to Celtics, which were basically the ultimate team of the East, only really comparable to Lakers in the west.


:rofl: Right, he lost to the Celtics three straight years. :rofl:

(You're entering aznzen territory here on the BBF Joke Scale)



DNKO said:


> And Jordan had cast of players like Steve Colter and Brad Sellers. Really on par with McHale and Bird


And LeBron was playing with Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, and Donyell Marshall. Guys who were totally as good as Manu Ginobli & Tim Duncan. :lol:



DNKO said:


> LMAO you're a joke.


So proclameth the guy that thinks his third grade education qualified him to say that the scientific researchers that studied HGH were clueless. (Upon reconsideration, I'll have to say you've left aznzen behind on the MGWAFM scale.)



DNKO said:


> And yes James is a choker, he proved it more than once and yes - misleading data set is also him going for that epic 2-18 and I think over 60 minutes without field goal (also NBA all time record)


Jordan also choked early in his career. I understand why grade school dropouts, whose entire experience of Jordan comes from sitting in front of the TV drooling down the front of their shirts while watching ESPN Classic, can't grasp this. It's because they never really saw anything but the highlights. My consolation in all this is that one day, if you (god in heaven forbid) spawn, your child will roll on the floor laughing at your claims. Because, of course, their entire experience of LeBron will be the same experience you have of Jordan. None.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> What's even more funnier is how people take MJ's ridiculous career for granted like it's some "slightly better than average" NBA career and bring up James (or anyone else) in comparison, meaning that Magic, Larry, and I'm not even trying go any further, are already basically "surpassed".


Riiiiiiiight. Please find me the person that claimed that Jordan was "slightly better than average"> You're not going to do it. Now, we can find one person that claimed that LeBron's performance in his first NBA Finals, as a 22 year old, was proof that he sucks, because if he were any good he would equal Jordan's prime era production. Now that's some logic forya (sic).



DNKO said:


> *waits for the "todays NBA is way more difficult and competitive" army to bust in


The first threepeat came at a period when the NBA expanded by 25% in a very short period of time, and grossly watered down the product (because the international talent pool wasn't up to the task of making up the differences then). That is a fact. So are you now saying that the Bulls' first threepeat has to be discounted because of the rapid expansion? So that wasn't really all that big an accomplishment after all?


----------



## Diable

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> LMAO @ misleading data set.
> 
> First you were totally delusional in that HGH discussion. Now you're doing it again. Goddamn.
> 
> And as for Jordans first 3 year failures in playoff, very laughable of you to point out how he lost to Celtics, which were basically the ultimate team of the East, only really comparable to Lakers in the west.
> 
> And Jordan had cast of players like Steve Colter and Brad Sellers. Really on par with McHale and Bird
> 
> LMAO you're a joke.
> 
> And yes James is a choker, he proved it more than once and yes - misleading data set is also him going for that epic 2-18 and I think over 60 minutes without field goal (also NBA all time record)
> 
> Those are all irrelevant and misleading stats.
> 
> But what it is relevant is that Jordan didn't win anything in his first 3 years playing against actual NBA champs packed with HOF players.
> 
> Kudos for your logic. It's very interesting.


 
Michael Jordan doesn't need your help.You completely suck at this...What the **** sort of argument is this anyway?Read this again and explain to me what your ****ing point is?How does any of this nonsense advance your point of view?How do these juvenile attacks on lebron make him more or less talented on a basketball court than anyone else for that matter?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Naw. I don't feel like arguing over the internet.

Certainly not by people who are here just because nobody listens to them in the real world so they have this urge to be RIGHT on a message boards.

Listen, if you get some idea that, oh I don't know, Chris Bosh is the greatest player all time, good, make a thread about it, go in on the subject, and do whatever you have to do to please yourself.

This is ridiculous, same bull every time.

I didn't drool over ESPN classics, I watched all those games multiple times, but hey, I know - YOU are the expert, YOU know what's right and what's wrong in NBA basketball and YOU are the one who decides who's the best, worst and in-between player in the NBA.

You win. Great success.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Naw. I don't feel like arguing over the internet.


:bsmeter:



DNKO said:


> Certainly not by people who are here just because nobody listens to them in the real world so they have this urge to be RIGHT on a message boards.


:rofl: :lol: :rotf: :lol: :rofl:



DNKO said:


> Listen, if you get some idea that, oh I don't know, Chris Bosh is the greatest player all time, good, make a thread about it, go in on the subject, and do whatever you have to do to please yourself.


I mean, totally. I mean what, 20 or 30 people made that claim here, right? :rofl: :lol: :rotf: :lol: :rofl:



DNKO said:


> I didn't drool over ESPN classics, I watched all those games multiple times


No you didn't.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I approve this thread. Great discussion.

*forwards it to NBA.com


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

This is getting a little out of hand...

Listen up, peeps, even if DKNY isn't using the most adequate posats to show his/her view, his/her basic reasoning is absolutely right: Lebron James has done nothing yet to make him worthy of Michael Jordan-status. Nothing.

Yes, Lebron James is one of the 4 best players in the world right now (alongside Paul, Wade and Kobe). 
Yes, Lebron is tearing it up in the stats (so are Paul, Wade and - to a lesser extent, Kobe).
Yes, so far Lebron has 1 Finals appearence and one up-an-coming MVP award.
That's great.
But that's also ridiculously (sp?) little to warrant MJ comparisons.

I agree Michael Jordan is NOT a God-like figure that noone will ever reach his status. Or even pass it. Heck, in my opersonal All-Time List, he is #3.
But please, oh please wait before you crown Lebron so early.
Again, he has done nothing yet to earn him Michael Jordan comparisons.
One trip to the Finals and one MVP? that's more Allen Iversonesque. Not even Karl Malone realm. Or Charles Barkley. Or many others.

The thread starter's question is, to me, ludicrous at this time in Lebron's career. 
I don't give a **** about his age. Yes, Bronze has many, many years to carve his legacy. But we don't know what will happen, The same as we didn't know Larry Bird's back wwill give up on him so early. And that Magic will contract HIV at his stage of his career.

Let's stop all this non-sense untill Bronze wins something like ONE championship.
And that won't be THIS year! :evil:


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Listen up, peeps, even if DKNY isn't using the most adequate posats to show his/her view, his/her basic reasoning is absolutely right: Lebron James has done nothing yet to make him worthy of Michael Jordan-status. Nothing.


not sure how that is relevant. did you read the title of the thread? it talks about it being inevitable that lebron will pass jordan, not that lebron currently is better than jordan or that lebron has done anything thus far to make him worthy of jordan status. it says that lebron is going to pass jordan in the future, not that he is already there.



> Let's stop all this non-sense untill Bronze wins something like ONE championship.
> And that won't be THIS year! :evil:


anything referring to him winning the bronze medal was never clever and now that he won the gold is even less so.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Let's stop all this non-sense untill Bronze wins something like ONE championship.
> And that won't be THIS year! :evil:


I can well understand why Laker fans are so terrified, after all, if you don't win the title this year it might never happen.


----------



## Basel

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Lakers fans are terrified? News to me.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> I can well understand why Laker fans are so terrified, after all, if you don't win the title this year it might never happen.


Whao, let's get back to picking on Chris Richards and DNKO.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Nightmute said:


> Whao, let's get back to picking on Chris Richards and DNKO.


That's like fishing for flounder in a hogshead with a hand grenade.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Let's all stop talking about who will make the finals, it's only the first round! 
Let's all stop talking about who will be a great team in a few years, that's so far away!
Let's all stop talking about what college players will do well in the pros, let them prove themselves! 

I don't know why we're allowed to talk about some things in the future, but when it comes to Jordan or other greats, there is a glass case where it can't be talked about. I guess because there are emotions involved with such powerful sports figures that bring up childhood nostalgia. Dethroning a great can be sad I suppose. 

But hey, if you don't think LeBron will ever pass Jordan, say it. Say it proud. I don't mind the wait and see approach, I just hate when those people want everyone to sit on the fence with them. Some people would rather try to foresee the future. That's part of the fun in sports.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> I can well understand why Laker fans are so terrified, after all, if you don't win the title this year it might never happen.


Well I always thought you could do little bit better than just flat out quoting Sir Charles.

...carry on...


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Let's all stop talking about who will make the finals, it's only the first round!
> Let's all stop talking about who will be a great team in a few years, that's so far away!
> Let's all stop talking about what college players will do well in the pros, let them prove themselves!
> 
> I don't know why we're allowed to talk about some things in the future, but when it comes to Jordan or other greats, there is a glass case where it can't be talked about. I guess because there are emotions involved with such powerful sports figures that bring up childhood nostalgia. Dethroning a great can be sad I suppose.
> 
> But hey, if you don't think LeBron will ever pass Jordan, say it. Say it proud. I don't mind the wait and see approach, I just hate when those people want everyone to sit on the fence with them. Some people would rather try to foresee the future. That's part of the fun in sports.


*Can *Lebron pass Jordan? Yes.
*Can *Wade pass Jordan? Yes.
*Can *Paul pass Jordan? Yes.
*Can *D-Ho pass Jordan? Yes.

Is Lebron *going to do it *- or Wade, or Paul, or Howard? How the heck should we know by what has happened so far in their careers?
That's all i'm saying. One thing is granted: ebron will probably keep up his 30/8/7 stats for a decade. But how can we foresee if he is going to win multiple championships based on his current team? Or ever win DPOY awards?

IMHO, there's not much base to the question being asked. Moreso when you say Lebron IS going to do it. I consider it to be wishfull thinking, at best.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> I can well understand why Laker fans are so terrified, after all, if you don't win the title this year it might never happen.


I give you that you have the upperhand in this one, ehmunro: your one-and-out-again-for-another-20-years is alrady achieved. Take solace on that.

I feel the urge of a wager against a bitter Celtics fan.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DKNY said:


> Well I always thought you could do little bit better than just flat out quoting Sir Charles.


Charles Barkley may have said something similar (I haven't really paid attention to him since the all star break), but we don't talk alike at all, so I doubt that our statements were identical. (And really this is all irrelevant anyway, it's like accusing someone of plagiarism for writing "I'm going to the store.")


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> I give you that you have the upperhand in this one, ehmunro: your one-and-out-again-for-another-20-years is alrady achieved. Take solace on that.
> 
> I feel the urge of a wager against a bitter Celtics fan.


You're going to have a lot of trouble finding one. Here in Celtics nation the overwhelming feeling is that we're playing with house money now. The Celtics won a title and are going to be a top team in the NBA for another 3-5 years. We're not spoiled sports like those Laker fans who get bitter and angry when other teams beat their binkies. We don't take our basketballs and go home for a good cry. We're cognisant of the fact that if Danny Ferry stops ****ing the poodle that LeBron is going to ride roughshod on the NBA for the next 6-8 years and that the rest of us are rooting to finish second. 

Of course, out in Laker nation, you've got a hellhound on your trail and the Cavaliers in front of you. We in Boston were satisfied with our short window (except for the delusional few that are still crying about the loss of Al Jefferson, but every fanbase has its nutters). So far I've seen no indication that Laker fans are happy with _their_ short window of opportunity.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> You're going to have a lot of trouble finding one. Here in Celtics nation the overwhelming feeling is that we're playing with house money now. The Celtics won a title and are going to be a top team in the NBA for another 3-5 years. We're not spoiled sports like those Laker fans who get bitter and angry when other teams beat their binkies. We don't take our basketballs and go home for a good cry. We're cognisant of the fact that if Danny Ferry stops ****ing the poodle that LeBron is going to ride roughshod on the NBA for the next 6-8 years and that the rest of us are rooting to finish second.
> 
> Of course, out in Laker nation, you've got a hellhound on your trail and the Cavaliers in front of you. We in Boston were satisfied with our short window (except for the delusional few that are still crying about the loss of Al Jefferson, but every fanbase has its nutters). So far I've seen no indication that Laker fans are happy with _their_ short window of opportunity.


LOL.
And this is what "Celtics Pride" has come to.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

"Celtics Pride" was one of those phrases coined of the players. I'm very confident that the Celtics are going to give it their all. But, at the end of the day their best player has a bad knee and isn't going to be playing this postseason. I can live with waiting until next year for them to contend again. How would you feel about the Lakers' chances if Kobe went down? The implications of your post confirm my observations above.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> "Celtics Pride" was one of those phrases coined of the players. I'm very confident that the Celtics are going to give it their all. But, at the end of the day their best player has a bad knee and isn't going to be playing this postseason. I can live with waiting until next year for them to contend again. How would you feel about the Lakers' chances if Kobe went down? The implications of your post confirm my observations above.


That was not what i was saying - or trying to say. What i found amusing about your next-to-last post was how you almost seemed content in having won one championship and now being prepared to play for second - behind the Cavs. If i didn't grossly misundertood your post, that was what you said, right?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

No, what I said is that we're aware of the fact that LeBron is so terrifyingly good that he's on the verge of running away and hiding for the next six to eight years. Because, frankly, he is. If Boston could parlay Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo into a top 3 player, that'd change. But we always knew that with the Garnett trade that Boston was gambling on being a contender for 3-5 years rather than accepting 8-10 years of abject mediocrity. We much prefer this than a decade of 35-45 win seasons.


----------



## dwade3

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LeBron is nothing like Jordan.....if he is to be compared to anyone, it is Shaq, an un-shakeable force who is liked to a freight train. Jordan used his power, skills and movements with finesse, LeBron uses his with brute force.....i'm a Wade fan, but I can admit Kobe is still the classiest player since Jordan. Wade may have Jordanesque moves (but I dare say he wants to be known for his own moves), but LeBron is straight BEAST....eg. Shaq.....


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I dont think people on this thread are realizing that no one is saying LeBron has had a career on the level of Jordan, yet. The point is that he MIGHT, in that he is so good at such a young age that he will likely put up similar stats for another 6-8 years, while being a major contender for a championship every year. He will PROBABLY get multiple titles. He will PROBABLY lead the league in PER for a bunch more years. If he does what he PROBABLY will do, then he will be up there with Jordan.

To me, whether his career ends up like Jordan's is contingent on two things. First, if he gets a lot of championships obviously. I think he will. The Cavs have a very high chance of winning this year, and they will continue to have a high chance every year, as their best players are all 26 and younger, besides Z and Wallace. The second thing that it all depends on is his longevity and effectiveness at later years. LeBron is 24 now. Michael Jordan was MVP and won a title at age 34. If LeBron is still at his current level (or not much diminished) ten years from now when he is 34, he will have put up better career numbers than Jordan overall, as Jordan missed two years to retirement and one year to injury, while LeBron started a few years younger. As such, LeBron will have operated at his peak level for a few more years than Jordan.


----------



## dwade3

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> I dont think people on this thread are realizing that no one is saying LeBron has had a career on the level of Jordan, yet. The point is that he MIGHT, in that he is so good at such a young age that he will likely put up similar stats for another 6-8 years, while being a major contender for a championship every year. He will PROBABLY get multiple titles. He will PROBABLY lead the league in PER for a bunch more years. If he does what he PROBABLY will do, then he will be up there with Jordan.
> 
> To me, whether his career ends up like Jordan's is contingent on two things. First, if he gets a lot of championships obviously. I think he will. The Cavs have a very high chance of winning this year, and they will continue to have a high chance every year, as their best players are all 26 and younger, besides Z and Wallace. The second thing that it all depends on is his longevity and effectiveness at later years. LeBron is 24 now. Michael Jordan was MVP and won a title at age 34. If LeBron is still at his current level (or not much diminished) ten years from now when he is 34, he will have put up better career numbers than Jordan overall, as Jordan missed two years to retirement and one year to injury, while LeBron started a few years younger. As such, LeBron will have operated at his peak level for a few more years than Jordan.


lets not get ahead of ourselves here, injuries have slowed careers down, sometimes damaged them (lets be fair and say T-Macs run his course?) although James does not look like an athelete that would get injured often....but in the line of NBA greats, yes LeBron will play at a SUPERSTAR level for the next 9 seasons with an option for 3 more.....in terms of Megastar level probably the next 6 seasons...so 4 MVP's arent out of the question....but with Wade, Howard, Paul, Melo, Roy etc etc around forseeingly as long as he will be, not quite sure he will get 4 MVP's....


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

He is already going to get the MVP this season, so that's one. Jordan got his last MVP at age 34. To limit LeBron's window of time to 6 years is probably wrong. If he develops his game, is still very effective at 30-34 years old, and his teams are still winning 60+ games, then he will be in the running all those years too. He can easily get 3 more MVPs in the next 10 years. 

And yeah, injuries are an issue, but LeBron is not injury prone. He has proven that already. Obviously, that doesnt mean he won't have a big injury, but somehow players like LeBron that have played at MVP level for many years never seem to get career ending injuries before the age of like 32. Tracy McGrady was never seriously considered for an MVP, so he doesnt really count.


----------



## dwade3

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

2 things, LeBron is not MJ. You are forgetting MJ was a pro at 21, not 17 like LeBron meaning he is more comparable to Kobe, Garnett, T-Mac....lets see LeBron play a series or two against teams wanting to play some ball....and where LeBron has to score down the stretch...
secnodly, McGrady a 7-time All-Star, All-NBA player, of course he's been considered for MVP....just players like Shaq, TD, KG and Steve Nash have been in his way....


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



dwade3 said:


> 2 things, LeBron is not MJ. You are forgetting MJ was a pro at 21, not 17 like LeBron meaning he is more comparable to Kobe, Garnett, T-Mac....lets see LeBron play a series or two against teams wanting to play some ball....and where LeBron has to score down the stretch...
> secnodly, McGrady a 7-time All-Star, All-NBA player, of course he's been considered for MVP....just players like Shaq, TD, KG and Steve Nash have been in his way....


LeBron was the best player in the league this year in the clutch, so Im sure he'll do fine.

And the highest McGrady got in MVP voting was 4th. He got 2 all-nba first teams, 3 second teams, and 2 third teams. To me, he wasn't quite at the level of constant MVP threat. He was a rung below. He certainly had the potential to hit that level. He was young when he started getting injured, but he wasn't quite at that level yet IMO.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I really don't think the Lebron Jordan comparison is as meaningful a comparison as say, Lebron and Magic. Lebron is basically Magic with crazy hops and a stronger build. Both are supposedly 6'8" (meaning they are/were 6'7"), both have crazy court vision and therefore amazing passing skills, both love to run and slash, and both have/had questionable jump shots. 

Unless and until Lebron can clean up that ugly knuckleball of a jumpshot of his, that Tim Hardaway-esque knuckler, the comparison shouldn't even begin. Seriously, Michael Jordan's jump shot was picture perfect since he first suited up for the Carolina Blue, and he had been refining it every year until he took out Utah at the end of six. 

Lebron's J, meanwhile, looks more like Roger Clemens' split finger fastball than a fundamentally sound jump shot. As they say, Lebron's jumper is ugly but effective. 

Take a lot of Magic, add a touch of Shawn Kemp, along with some of MJ's marketing prowess, and you get one Lebron. But all of that doesn't add up to one MJ. He is no heir to Air...


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Jordan's jumper wasn't picture perfect.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Take a look again at his jump shot to take down Georgetown. Elbow tucked, releases the ball off the index and middle finger, beautiful flip release and follow through with fingers spread. I've always been astonished by people's criticisms of his outside shooting; he's always shot an incredibly high percentage for a shooting guard, and his form is gorgeous.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Too much ownage for this thread to die. Must highlight the wimp-outs...someday...soon!

Too lazy.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



dwade3 said:


> 2 things, LeBron is not MJ. You are forgetting MJ was a pro at 21, not 17 like LeBron meaning he is more comparable to Kobe, Garnett, T-Mac....*lets see LeBron play a series or two against teams wanting to play some ball....and where LeBron has to score down the stretch...*
> secnodly, McGrady a 7-time All-Star, All-NBA player, of course he's been considered for MVP....just players like Shaq, TD, KG and Steve Nash have been in his way....


I had no idea it takes news like 3 years to reach down to Australia.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> Jordan's jumper wasn't picture perfect.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Take a look again at his jump shot to take down Georgetown. Elbow tucked, releases the ball off the index and middle finger, beautiful flip release and follow through with fingers spread. I've always been astonished by people's criticisms of his outside shooting; he's always shot an incredibly high percentage for a shooting guard, and his form is gorgeous.


For his first several seasons he was a mediocre shooter outside the 14'-16' range. His FG% was high because he was so athletic that no one could keep him away from the rim (especially in the pre-zone days). Those dunks inflated his shooting percentages. But he wasn't a great shooter until the middle of his career.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> For his first several seasons he was a mediocre shooter outside the 14'-16' range.


You just can't stop can you.

...lol...


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

^ He's right, so he shouldn't stop. Jordan was dreadful from beyond the arc, shot 18% or less through is mid-20's until finally cracking 20% in 1989. Didn't shoot above 30% until 1990. Was likely below 40% in the 16-22 foot range. It's not at all hard to prove or fathom.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Yeah...................and?

What does that prove? James is still streaky, he still has games with 20% from the field, he still misses layups like he did against Celtics last year, so what?

Who cares. Jordan had a bad percentage from the 3, so what, until he got a decent % from the 3 (38% in 89-90) he never attempted more than 100 3's in 1 season.

So big deal, he averaged one three pointer attempt per game and missed a lot, nobody cares, he still had 37 and 35 points per game seasons, with 48 and 54 % from the field.

But carry on, the world of sports reads this thread for the shocking scientific premise you guys started here. 

As if there weren't dozens of "next Jordans" in past 10 years. _Yeah but LeBrons special._ Right. Carry on.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> As if there weren't dozens of "next Jordans" in past 10 years. _Yeah but LeBrons special._ Right. Carry on.


Sure, but none of them were as good as Lebron. Kobe is really the only one who came that close to living up to it (I'm not saying he's as good as Jordan), and it's hard to deny that Lebron's curve has been up a whole lot faster than Kobe's. This is one of those few instances where labeling someone the 'next Jordan' might not be quite so premature, at least in terms of ability. Accomplishments are what we'd need to wait and see on.

EDIT - Even though Lebron does not play the game the same way Jordan does, I'm assuming the comparison isn't so much about playstyle.


----------



## Diable

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

It's likely that a large percentage of the treys Jordan took early in his career were of the very low percentage variety.The three pointer just wasn't a part of his game until he added it later in his career.Since he only took about 190 or so in his first 260 games I would suspect that a large number of these were attempts to beat the buzzer at the end of quarters or on broken plays.You're simply looking at a very small sample size.Jordan didn't really need a jumper at that point...All he did was attack the bucket relentlessly.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Yeah...................and?
> 
> What does that prove?


Someone made the claim that Jordan's jumper was "always picture perfect". It wasn't. There's really not much else to say. Jordan was a very good shooter by the middle of his career. But he was a pretty poor shooter early on. That doesn't detract from his greatness. In fact, I'd say it was just the opposite. The fact that he eventually became a great shooter is a testament to just how great he was. Not many guys go from dreadful to great. Magic sure as heck didn't.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

He was a poor shooter...54% 35 ppg in 82 games.

OK. You know. If only you had some coaching / GM gig. You would make zillions. 

Because your basketball expertise is second to none.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Diable said:


> It's likely that a large percentage of the treys Jordan took early in his career were of the very low percentage variety.The three pointer just wasn't a part of his game until he added it later in his career.Since he only took about 190 or so in his first 260 games I would suspect that a large number of these were attempts to beat the buzzer at the end of quarters or on broken plays.You're simply looking at a very small sample size.Jordan didn't really need a jumper at that point...All he did was attack the bucket relentlessly.


pretty much...


----------



## bandits1

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Lol @ DNKO catching feelings just because some people doubt Jordan's jumpshot early in his career.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> He was a poor shooter...54% 35 ppg in 82 games.
> 
> OK. You know. If only you had some coaching / GM gig. You would make zillions.
> 
> Because your basketball expertise is second to none.


You're right, Magic Johnson was one of the deadliest jumpshooters in the history of the NBA. :lol:


----------



## Floods

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Um, lets see the rings before making threads like this kthx.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> He was a poor shooter...54% 35 ppg in 82 games.
> 
> OK. You know. If only you had some coaching / GM gig. You would make zillions.
> 
> Because your basketball expertise is second to none.


Just because you have a good field goal percentage doesn't mean you're a great shooter. He had a percentage that high because he attacked the basket. Why are you so defensive about that? It's not like it's a bad thing.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> As if there weren't dozens of "next Jordans" in past 10 years. _Yeah but LeBrons special._ Right. Carry on.


you're right. lebron's not special. he's like any other next jordan.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LeBron is not the next Jordan, he is going to pass Jordan. Jordan is going to become the first LeBron. And LOL @ anyone using field goal percentage to prove someone can shoot. If that's the case, Shaquille was the best shooter in basketball for the past decade.


----------



## Floods

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

So LeBron's going to win 7+ rings, 5+ MVP'S, and get on the all-defense team 9+ times? Sa-weet.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I also thing LeCrab will pass Jordan, word is Jordan is a very laid back driver where as LeStern always likes to press the pedal a little bit.

Therefore LeStern is bound to pass Jordan, no doubt.

Before you make a total buffoon out of yourself, with that lame "Shaq's the best shooter his FG% is high" ... I could remind you that almost every center has a high FG %, especially All-Star ones.

Give me a rundown of guards with 20+ FGA's per game and their FG %.

I'll wait. But you won't come up with anything decent. Because your head is up your (or LeBrons) ***.

But thats ok, thats a common disease among superficial NBA "fans" these days.

James already passed Jordan in Finals loses, Finals sweeps and chokes. Jordan was never able to fail like James did in NBA Finals. Definitely out of MJ's league.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Ras said:


> He had a percentage that high because he attacked the basket.



No.

The only reason MJ had a near 50% FG shot in his entire career is because he had this fluke that almost every time he shots - balls goes trough the hoop.


If he didn't luck out so many times, he would miss a lot more shots and his FG% would be significantly lower.

Therefore, we should factor that in, so realistically, his FG% is, if we deduct his shots that went in but really DIDN'T suppose (because he was below average shooter, player and I would even say person overall) is somewhere around 21-25%.


Which is really bad. Boy he sucks. I finally realized that.

*emails this topic to Stern and all important sports media in the world
*breaking news @ 6


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I have to say, this is one of the funniest threads out there. DNKO being personally threatened by a player's greatness and his fear that his binky might one day be surpassed. Ahhh, what it must have been like to be a grade school fanboy during the Bulls' title years...


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I have to say, you're the funniest poster here. I noticed you in that HGH thread and now here, well I can tell you you're just another internet smartass.

Just another of those "Oh no not me, I don't say things that most people do, I'm an EXPERT, so my opinions are DIFFERENT"

* lebron steps on the court








* picks up a basketball








* bounces it









And then you make thread about it.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

PS - I would actually hope to someone suprassing MJ in legacy and legendary status just like in basketball accomplishments, to see a player with MJ's athleticism, grace, style, charisma, mercilessness, attitude, manners on and off court...all that...packed in one...and see him dominate the league, a basketball player whose play is recognized as great by casual fans and experts, someone who can speak the language of the game of basketball for the whole planet, make the NBA a global hit like it once was..make NBA appealing for everyone...

Basically a natural born winner in the NBA.

So far, no luck. Not even close. But, there's hope, I predict in next 10-15 years that player will come. 

And I can't wait.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> No.
> 
> The only reason MJ had a near 50% FG shot in his entire career is because he had this fluke that almost every time he shots - balls goes trough the hoop.
> 
> 
> If he didn't luck out so many times, he would miss a lot more shots and his FG% would be significantly lower.
> 
> Therefore, we should factor that in, so realistically, his FG% is, if we deduct his shots that went in but really DIDN'T suppose (because he was below average shooter, player and I would even say person overall) is somewhere around 21-25%.
> 
> 
> Which is really bad. Boy he sucks. I finally realized that.
> 
> *emails this topic to Stern and all important sports media in the world
> *breaking news @ 6


Why do you exaggerate things to such an extreme to try and make the people you're arguing against look foolish?

MJ learned to be a great jump shooter, he didn't start as one. Having a great field goal percentage doesn't mean you're a great jump shooter at all (also, don't exaggerate this and say that MJ is an awful human, a terrible basketball player and he'd be lucky to ever get a ball in a hoop and imply that I meant that). You can score in other ways.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> LeBron is not the next Jordan, he is going to pass Jordan. Jordan is going to become the first LeBron.


this is beyond ridiculous. wow.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> I also thing LeCrab will pass Jordan, word is Jordan is a very laid back driver where as LeStern always likes to press the pedal a little bit.
> 
> Therefore LeStern is bound to pass Jordan, no doubt.
> 
> Before you make a total buffoon out of yourself, with that lame "Shaq's the best shooter his FG% is high" ... I could remind you that almost every center has a high FG %, especially All-Star ones.
> 
> Give me a rundown of guards with 20+ FGA's per game and their FG %.
> 
> I'll wait. But you won't come up with anything decent. Because your head is up your (or LeBrons) ***.
> 
> But thats ok, thats a common disease among superficial NBA "fans" these days.
> 
> James already passed Jordan in Finals loses, Finals sweeps and chokes. Jordan was never able to fail like James did in NBA Finals. Definitely out of MJ's league.


James also made the Finals much younger with a much worse team and played against a dynasty style team. If I'm not mistaken, MJ's winning record was worse then LeBron his first couple seasons and only made the playoffs because there wasn't as many teams around. Look, I'm not saying he's better, or will be better, but you can't say what he's definitively not because of what happened in his first couple years in the league. It's not impossible, let him grow over time then say definitively what he is. People in this thread are just speculating.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I think people's opinions would slightly change on Lebron after June....he'll come down to earth I assure you.


I think Lebron's dominance is more on par with Shaq's early years albeit healthier.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Give me a rundown of guards with 20+ FGA's per game and their FG %.


You're pretty much proving this elementary point for me. Rajon Rondo and Tony Parker have the best field goal percentage of any guards in the league that plays significant minutes. Both shoot over 50%. 

Jason Terry, Ray Allen and Ben Gordon, etc, all shoot worse percentages. 

But hey, you're right, Parker and Rondo don't shoot a high percentage because they consistently get layups. Nope. They shoot a high percentage because they are better _shooters_.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> You're pretty much proving this elementary point for me. Rajon Rondo and Tony Parker have the best field goal percentage of any guards in the league that plays significant minutes. Both shoot over 50%.
> 
> Jason Terry, Ray Allen and Ben Gordon, etc, all shoot worse percentages.
> 
> But hey, you're right, Parker and Rondo don't shoot a high percentage because they consistently get layups. Nope. They shoot a high percentage because they are better _shooters_. :thumbsup:


I think that's quite the valid point.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> You're pretty much proving this elementary point for me. Rajon Rondo and Tony Parker have the best field goal percentage of any guards in the league that plays significant minutes. Both shoot over 50%.
> 
> Jason Terry, Ray Allen and Ben Gordon, etc, all shoot worse percentages.
> 
> But hey, you're right, Parker and Rondo don't shoot a high percentage because they consistently get layups. Nope. They shoot a high percentage because they are better _shooters_.



Its a broad evaluation but I never look at the definition of "Shooting" being limited to a perimeter setting. I think this is why Jordan was so efficient. Inside/Out, he was highly effective and equally dangerous in a very balance approach. I think this is what DNKO was trying to point out.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> So LeBron's going to win 7+ rings, 5+ MVP'S, and get on the all-defense team 9+ times? Sa-weet.


Why do people think he has to one-up Jordan on _everything_? Kareem has 6 titles and 6 MVP's. That's more than Jordan. He also has probably the most unbreakable career accomplishment in basketball with the all-time leading scoring record. Yet he isn't mentioned as top 3 or top 5 sometimes. 

Oh, and that unbreakable record, LeBron is the only one the really has a shot at breaking it. Especially with that high school rule now. That is a bigtime accomplishment that even Jordan couldn't do.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> Its a broad evaluation but I never look at the definition of "Shooting" being limited to a perimeter setting. I think this is why Jordan was so efficient. Inside/Out, he was highly effective and equally dangerous in a very balance approach. I think this is what DNKO was trying to point out.


Then why does he take offence to the fact that people say Jordan didn't start his career a good jump shooter and uses his FG% as evidence that he is?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

He had a countless dunks and layups to boost his percentages. It's an insult to Jason Terry to say Rajon Rondo is a better _shooter_ than him simply because Rondo has lightning quickness and great finishing ability.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I don't understand why someone can't argue against LeBron and for MJ, and not be called some name. You guys' are a bunch of **** heads in my book. And I highly doubt anyone feels threatened by anything posted on a damn message board. You all remind me of the bully's in school, you guy's are totally brutal and heatless. Who cares this guy has a different opinion than that of the mainstream group thought on BBB.Net, do you need to resort to tasteless remarks that are all totally disputable and down right juvenile, just to state your own self righteous opinions ?


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Ras said:


> Then why does he take offence to the fact that people say Jordan didn't start his career a good jump shooter and uses his FG% as evidence that he is?


Oh well then. Lets hear his further analysis on the subject


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I honestly can never remember anybody having criticism for MJ's lack of a jump shot from his inaugural season in the NBA and through out his career, most criticism for MJ early on in his career was about being selfish, and not trusting his teammates. The only thing that's ever been brought up, in regards to MJ's shooting, was MJ's lack of a great shooting percentage from 3 point distance, even though at 33.2% is decent for a player who never used the 3 point shot as a major weapon for his offensive arsenal. And why would you when you are the greatest interior player in NBA history, that's including the great Oscar Robertson. I have absolutely no idea where people here are posting MJ didn't shoot a ton of jump shots in his early career, because he did.

Although I would agree, that aesthetically MJ's jump shot became more and more refined, but a jump shot can be ugly and still find the bottom of the bucket, like it did for MJ the majority of the time early on in his career. If Jordan had the refined jump shot, and fade away that he worked hard at mastering, from the get go, he probably would of averaged near 60% from the field.


----------



## bandits1

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> You're pretty much proving this elementary point for me. Rajon Rondo and Tony Parker have the best field goal percentage of any guards in the league that plays significant minutes. Both shoot over 50%.
> 
> Jason Terry, Ray Allen and Ben Gordon, etc, all shoot worse percentages.
> 
> But hey, you're right, Parker and Rondo don't shoot a high percentage because they consistently get layups. Nope. They shoot a high percentage because they are better _shooters_.


Great example. If DNKO doesn't concede the point after reading your post, I'm going to go ahead and assume he's 12 years old.

How can someone be such a MJ leg-humper and not know that he wasn't really a great jump-shooter early in his career? Astounding.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I don't understand why someone can't argue against LeBron and for MJ, and not be called some name. You guys' are a bunch of **** heads in my book. And I highly doubt anyone feels threatened by anything posted on a damn message board. You all remind me of the bully's in school, you guy's are totally brutal and heatless. Who cares this guy has a different opinion than that of the mainstream group thought on BBB.Net, do you need to resort to tasteless remarks that are all totally disputable and down right juvenile, just to state your own self righteous opinions ?


Who's being a dick head? Who here has really insulted him? I don't see any seriously tasteless remarks (I think some called him young in a not so friendly way, but nothing seriously tasteless). Most here are just questioning his argument because he's seemed to make some baseless statements. Are people supposed to lay over because he shouldn't have to defend his position? The point of this message board is to discuss and debate. I think if we all just said "my opinion is different from yours. Cool." the conversation would get a little stale.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> You're pretty much proving this elementary point for me. Rajon Rondo and Tony Parker have the best field goal percentage of any guards in the league that plays significant minutes. Both shoot over 50%.
> 
> Jason Terry, Ray Allen and Ben Gordon, etc, all shoot worse percentages.
> 
> But hey, you're right, Parker and Rondo don't shoot a high percentage because they consistently get layups. Nope. They shoot a high percentage because they are better _shooters_.



Somehow I get this feeling those two don't shoot 20+ times a game but since you're the World's Official Basketball Almanac and NBA's divine voice from the above - your point MUST be right.

Your whole assumptions here are a joke. You try, with your internet nerdy scientist ways to prove (to yourselves really, because no one else is buying it) that 54% shooting with 35 points per game isn't great shooting.

Further proving my previous thesis, I don't believe any of you ever picked up a real, physical basketball.

Seriously, who are you kidding with your trying-to-be-expert ****? Who even cares?

OK, let me start my own expert analysis, since I'm also a part of this World Basketball Experts Summit...


Umm...Kareem is extremely overrated, not many of you know it, but he was a lot shorter when he was younger and if he didn't grow out to be that tall he wouldn't be this great center we all know.

So who else is realized D Howard will surpass Kareem?


Also, Magic Johnson and that whole hype about him, assists and all, truth is, if his teammates didn't convert his passes to points, I assure you, he would NOT have that many assists in his stats.

Therefore, it's more than safe to say how Paul is on his way to pass Magic.


And also, Larry Bird is always mentioned as this "great shooter".

Well, let me tell you this CASUAL FANS. Larry Bird was that great of a shooter because the ball always somehow went in the hoop.

But what if he missed more shots then he did? Would he be considered a great shooter?

No. Therefore, from now on, he's NOT a great shooter anymore. I said it. Now email it to Stern.


Wow. Being a forum basketball expert is much easier than I thought.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



bandits1 said:


> Great example. If DNKO doesn't concede the point after reading your post, I'm going to go ahead and assume he's 12 years old.
> 
> How can someone be such a MJ leg-humper and not know that he wasn't really a great jump-shooter early in his career? Astounding.


Sometimes it takes reading skills to comprehend something.

Let me repeat it for you, although I know you still won't get it.

But I'll try.



DNKO said:


> Give me a rundown of guards with 20+ FGA's per game and their FG %.


See, let me do a breakdown of that quote.

Give me a rundown = which is basically me asking "name me"

"of guard" = players that play guard positons

"with 20+ FGA's per game" = with 20+ - that's a shorter way to say "20 or more".....FGA's - that's "field goal attempts" - that's when you shoot the ball

"Per game" - per game

"and their FG% - with their field goal percentage (percentage = how many shots did you make out of your attempts)


Now, try to answer it again.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Somehow I get this feeling those two don't shoot 20+ times a game but since you're the World's Official Basketball Almanac and NBA's divine voice from the above - your point MUST be right.
> 
> Your whole assumptions here are a joke. You try, with your internet nerdy scientist ways to prove (to yourselves really, because no one else is buying it) that 54% shooting with 35 points per game isn't great shooting.
> 
> Further proving my previous thesis, I don't believe any of you ever picked up a real, physical basketball.
> 
> Seriously, who are you kidding with your trying-to-be-expert ****? Who even cares?
> 
> OK, let me start my own expert analysis, since I'm also a part of this World Basketball Experts Summit...
> 
> 
> Umm...Kareem is extremely overrated, not many of you know it, but he was a lot shorter when he was younger and if he didn't grow out to be that tall he wouldn't be this great center we all know.
> 
> So who else is realized D Howard will surpass Kareem?
> 
> 
> Also, Magic Johnson and that whole hype about him, assists and all, truth is, if his teammates didn't convert his passes to points, I assure you, he would NOT have that many assists in his stats.
> 
> Therefore, it's more than safe to say how Paul is on his way to pass Magic.
> 
> 
> And also, Larry Bird is always mentioned as this "great shooter".
> 
> Well, let me tell you this CASUAL FANS. Larry Bird was that great of a shooter because the ball always somehow went in the hoop.
> 
> But what if he missed more shots then he did? Would he be considered a great shooter?
> 
> No. Therefore, from now on, he's NOT a great shooter anymore. I said it. Now email it to Stern.
> 
> 
> Wow. Being a forum basketball expert is much easier than I thought.


Why do you exaggerate what the other person is saying to such an extreme to make them look like a fool?

Also, he never said 54% wasn't good shooting, he said it doesn't make you a good jump shooter. You don't need to shoot a minimum of 20 shots to be in the discussion either. But, even if you do for some reason want to make that criteria, I think Tony Parker has 20+ attempts a night, and he shoots a better percentage then Ray Allen. Does that make him a better jump shooter?

*Edit -* So Tony Parker has about 17 a night on the year which is close enough. In fact, Ray Allen only shoots 13 a night on the year, so Tony Parker has him by 4.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I honestly can never remember anybody having criticism for MJ's lack of a jump shot from his inaugural season in the NBA and through out his career


Seems to me someone here wasn't the true NBA expert in the 80's...

O-oh!


C'mon man, get along with the program.

To be a quality basketball expert, follow this formula.


(Commonly accepted premise) + (personal subjective opinion) + 0,15 * (Comonly accepted premise) - the ability to be conceded = new revolutionary outlook on the game

Try it.

Soon you will find that Tim Legler was way more better player than people give him credit for.

And you'll finally realize who's the best.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Seems to me someone here wasn't the true NBA expert in the 80's...
> 
> O-oh!
> 
> 
> C'mon man, get along with the program.
> 
> To be a quality basketball expert, follow this formula.
> 
> 
> (Commonly accepted premise) + (personal subjective opinion) + 0,15 * (Comonly accepted premise) - the ability to be conceded = new revolutionary outlook on the game
> 
> Try it.
> 
> Soon you will find that Tim Legler was way more better player than people give him credit for.
> 
> And you'll finally realize who's the best.


Again, why do you exaggerate what other people say to such an extreme to make them look like fools? You generally don't even address the points they bring up, you just insult them and try and make their arguments look foolish.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Ras said:


> Why do you exaggerate what the other person is saying to such an extreme to make them look like a fool?
> 
> Also, he never said 54% wasn't good shooting, he said it doesn't make you a good jump shooter. You don't need to shoot a minimum of 20 shots to be in the discussion either. But, even if you do for some reason want to make that criteria, I think Tony Parker has 20+ attempts a night, and he shoots a better percentage then Ray Allen. Does that make him a better jump shooter?
> 
> *Edit -* So Tony Parker has about 17 a night on the year which is close enough. In fact, Ray Allen only shoots 13 a night on the year, so Tony Parker has him by 4.


Tony Parker never shot 20 shots per game in his life.

Ray Allen doesn't even have 45% from the field in his career.

But you think he's great because he shoots 3's? Or? What...

There's no point arguing with any of you since your knowledge of the game comes from forums + video games.

Therefore, there's no debating against it.


Ray Allen is better than Tony Parker? How so? Why? Because he shots more 3's? 

What's shooter to you? Someone who shoots 3's? 

I think none of you really know the hell you talking about.



First you need to agree upon whats "great shooter / shooting" for you.

Then we can maybe move on.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Tony Parker never shot 20 shots per game in his life.
> 
> Ray Allen doesn't even have 45% from the field in his career.
> 
> But you think he's great because he shoots 3's? Or? What...
> 
> There's no point arguing with any of you since your knowledge of the game comes from forums + video games.
> 
> Therefore, there's no debating against it.
> 
> 
> Ray Allen is better than Tony Parker? How so? Why? Because he shots more 3's?
> 
> What's shooter to you? Someone who shoots 3's?
> 
> I think none of you really know the hell you talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> First you need to agree upon whats "great shooter / shooting" for you.
> 
> Then we can maybe move on.


We're talking about jump shots, not overall shooting percentage. 

You think that Tony Parker is a better jump shooter then Ray Allen?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Oh, I'm sorry. 

Jordan scored his 35 points on layups and freethrows. *DAMN* you always get me with your impregnable knowledge.

Parker vs Allen? 

Could be the same. Can't tell. Allen is way more exposed to shooting than Parker. Parker uses his size and speed to crawl to the hoop. And he hits open shots when he gets open.

He's not the type to pull up for a shot anytime in the game.


But then again, does it matter? Reggie Miller was a great jump shooter, I can't exactly remember where that got him in his NBA career.

Certainly not over MJ. MJ's weak jump shots always prevailed. Amazing, isn't it?


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Oh, I'm sorry.
> 
> Jordan scored his 35 points on layups and freethrows. *DAMN* you always get me with your impregnable knowledge.
> 
> Parker vs Allen?
> 
> Could be the same. Can't tell. Allen is way more exposed to shooting than Parker. Parker uses his size and speed to crawl to the hoop. And he hits open shots when he gets open.
> 
> He's not the type to pull up for a shot anytime in the game.
> 
> 
> But then again, does it matter? Reggie Miller was a great jump shooter, I can't exactly remember where that got him in his NBA career.
> 
> Certainly not over MJ. MJ's weak jump shots always prevailed. Amazing, isn't it?


I think you completely missed the point. All they said was that MJ didn't come into the league a great jump shooter and he really developed into one as his career went on.

Again, stop exaggerating what people say to make us look like fools; it's insulting.

*Edit -* Also, you can't tell if Ray Allen is a better jump shooter then Tony Parker?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Ray Allen is better 3 point shooter.

Jump shooter? Can't tell. He has a beautiful shot though...


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Ray Allen is better 3 point shooter.
> 
> Jump shooter? Can't tell. He has a beautiful shot though...


You can't tell if Ray Allen is a better jump shooter then Tony Parker? How can you not tell?

Also, since this was the basis of the conversation, I think this is important.... 



> All they said was that MJ didn't come into the league a great jump shooter and he really developed into one as his career went on.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

not sure how much it really matters in the end. jordan wasn't a good 3 point shooter. he was a great and efficient scorer overall. 

but more importantly, jordan dominated his era. lebron is starting to dominate his era. they each have individual strengths over the other. jordan was the better overall scorer and defender. lebron the better passer and rebounder. and even where there are advantages, they are not large disparities. 

dnko, do you think lebron's season was an all-time great season?


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> dnko, do you think lebron's season was an all-time great season?


no. i could think of a few thats better than lebron's individual 08-09 statistical season. its not even top 10. 



oscar robetrtson (greatest individual season ever, minus the 43-37 record)

30.8 ppg, 12.4 rebounds, 11.5 assists

olajuwon 

24.3 ppg. 14 rebounds, 4.6 blocks, 2.9 assists, 2.1 steals

jordan 

32.5 ppg, 8 rebounds, 8 assists, 2.9 steals

jordan 87-88

35 points, 5.9 assists, 5.5 rebounds, 3.2 steals, and 1.6 blocks while shooting 53.5% from the field and 84.1% from the free throw line. (*MVP, DPOY*)


abdul jabbar

34.6 ppg, 16.6 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 57.4 FG%

baylor 

38.3 ppg, 18.6 rebounds, 4.6 assists


olajuwon's 94 season

27.8ppg 10.8 rpg 3.5 apg 3.3 bpg 1.8 spg (*mvp, finals mvp,dpoy*)

shaq 99-00

averaged an amazing 29.7 points, 13.6 rebounds, 3.8 assists, and 3 blocks while shooting 57.4% from the field. his nba final performance was through the roof. (*mvp. finals mvp*)



i think wade's stats are much impressive than lebron this year (30.2 ppg 49% fg. 7.5 apg 5.0 rpg 2.2 spg and 1.3 bpg) i would put lebron's season on par with kobe's 02-03 where he averaged 30 points, 6.9 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 2.2 steals, and 0.8 blocks while shooting 45.1% from the field, 38.3% from the three-point line and 84.3% from the free-throw line. this is not even lebron's best season, i think 07-08 was better minus the team record.


----------



## croco

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Ras said:


> Again, why do you exaggerate what other people say to such an extreme to make them look like fools? You generally don't even address the points they bring up, you just insult them and try and make their arguments look foolish.


He isn't making anyone look foolish expect for himself. Most (like me) don't bother discussing or answering anymore because it is wasted time. He is an artist, a true master of ignoring reality, twisting facts and coming off as ignorant. I'm sure he doesn't even believe half of the utter nonsense himself.


----------



## GNG

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Ray Allen is better 3 point shooter.
> 
> Jump shooter? Can't tell. He has a beautiful shot though...


This season (eFG%):

Ray Allen - 56 percent jumpshooter
Tony Parker - 42 percent jumpshooter

Per 82 games.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> no. i could think of a few thats better than lebron's individual 08-09 statistical season. its not even top 10.





OMGBaselRocks! said:


> oscar robetrtson (greatest individual season ever, minus the 43-37 record)
> 
> 30.8 ppg, 12.4 rebounds, 11.5 assists


like you said, his team won 23 less games. and there's a reason his per was only 26. pace adjusted, his stats just come down fairly significantly. and it was 47 years ago at the dawn of the modern era.



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> olajuwon
> 
> 24.3 ppg. 14 rebounds, 4.6 blocks, 2.9 assists, 2.1 steals


.500 team. great season.



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> jordan
> 
> 32.5 ppg, 8 rebounds, 8 assists, 2.9 steals


great year. 47 wins. coach gets fired.



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> jordan 87-88
> 
> 35 points, 5.9 assists, 5.5 rebounds, 3.2 steals, and 1.6 blocks while shooting 53.5% from the field and 84.1% from the free throw line. (*MVP, DPOY*)


great year. 50 wins.




OMGBaselRocks! said:


> abdul jabbar
> 
> 34.6 ppg, 16.6 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 57.4 FG%


great year. 63 wins.



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> baylor
> 
> 38.3 ppg, 18.6 rebounds, 4.6 assists


played 48 games.



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> olajuwon's 94 season
> 
> 27.8ppg 10.8 rpg 3.5 apg 3.3 bpg 1.8 spg (*mvp, finals mvp,dpoy*)


great year. 



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> shaq 99-00
> 
> averaged an amazing 29.7 points, 13.6 rebounds, 3.8 assists, and 3 blocks while shooting 57.4% from the field. his nba final performance was through the roof. (*mvp. finals mvp*)


great year.




OMGBaselRocks! said:


> i think wade's stats are much impressive than lebron this year (30.2 ppg 49% fg. 7.5 apg 5.0 rpg 2.2 spg and 1.3 bpg) i would put lebron's season on par with kobe's 02-03 where he averaged 30 points, 6.9 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 2.2 steals, and 0.8 blocks while shooting 45.1% from the field, 38.3% from the three-point line and 84.3% from the free-throw line. this is not even lebron's best season, i think 07-08 was better minus the team record.


the list includes only jordan, hakeem, shaq, kareem, elgin (48 games) and oscar. and wade. 

lebron's season, on a 66 win team, is obviously an all-time great season. whether you put it 1st or 10th, it's in a select group of greats.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> no. i could think of a few thats better than lebron's individual 08-09 statistical season. its not even top 10.
> 
> 
> 
> oscar robetrtson (greatest individual season ever, minus the 43-37 record)
> 
> 30.8 ppg, 12.4 rebounds, 11.5 assists
> 
> olajuwon
> 
> 24.3 ppg. 14 rebounds, 4.6 blocks, 2.9 assists, 2.1 steals
> 
> jordan
> 
> 32.5 ppg, 8 rebounds, 8 assists, 2.9 steals
> 
> jordan 87-88
> 
> 35 points, 5.9 assists, 5.5 rebounds, 3.2 steals, and 1.6 blocks while shooting 53.5% from the field and 84.1% from the free throw line. (*MVP, DPOY*)
> 
> 
> abdul jabbar
> 
> 34.6 ppg, 16.6 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 57.4 FG%
> 
> baylor
> 
> 38.3 ppg, 18.6 rebounds, 4.6 assists
> 
> 
> olajuwon's 94 season
> 
> 27.8ppg 10.8 rpg 3.5 apg 3.3 bpg 1.8 spg (*mvp, finals mvp,dpoy*)
> 
> shaq 99-00
> 
> averaged an amazing 29.7 points, 13.6 rebounds, 3.8 assists, and 3 blocks while shooting 57.4% from the field. his nba final performance was through the roof. (*mvp. finals mvp*)
> 
> 
> 
> i think wade's stats are much impressive than lebron this year (30.2 ppg 49% fg. 7.5 apg 5.0 rpg 2.2 spg and 1.3 bpg) i would put lebron's season on par with kobe's 02-03 where he averaged 30 points, 6.9 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 2.2 steals, and 0.8 blocks while shooting 45.1% from the field, 38.3% from the three-point line and 84.3% from the free-throw line. this is not even lebron's best season, i think 07-08 was better minus the team record.


You just look at raw numbers don't you?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> I have to say, you're the funniest poster here. I noticed you in that HGH thread and now here, well I can tell you you're just another internet smartass.


I'm sorry that the _scientific studies_ established that you were full of ****. That's what I posted, the scientific studies that proved that your claims about HGH being a super duper performance enhancer were horsepuckey. They still are.



DNKO said:


> * lebron steps on the court
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * picks up a basketball
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * bounces it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then you make thread about it.


I think you're going to be hard pressed to find a LeBron fanboy thread started by me. On the other hand I bet if we checked your history we'll find a hundred or so "******** SUX0RS!!! HE'LL NEVER BE AS GOOD AS MY BINKY!!!" threads initiated by you.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> the list includes only jordan, hakeem, shaq, kareem, elgin (48 games) and oscar. and wade.
> 
> *lebron's season, on a 66 win team, is obviously an all-time great season. whether you put it 1st or 10th, it's in a select group of greats.*


Eventhough Lebron's season was a great one, other players not listed already had similar if not better seasons, stat-wise: Wilt, Bird, Magic, David Robinson, Karl Malone, Jerry West, Rick BArry, Moses, etc., etc.

But that's elite company, alright...


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> And I highly doubt anyone feels threatened by anything posted on a damn message board.


Sure he isn't. 



Ras said:


> Again, why do you exaggerate what other people say to such an extreme to make them look like fools? You generally don't even address the points they bring up, you just insult them and try and make their arguments look foolish.


Actually, he's attempting to make himself look foolish, something we can all agree that he does with astounding success.



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> Its a broad evaluation but I never look at the definition of "Shooting" being limited to a perimeter setting.


Except that we _were_ specifically discussing perimeter shooting.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> the list includes only jordan, hakeem, shaq, kareem, elgin (48 games) and oscar. and wade.
> 
> lebron's season, on a 66 win team, is obviously an all-time great season. whether you put it 1st or 10th, it's in a select group of greats.


i could list tiny archibalds (*34.0 ppg, 11.4 assists, 84.7 FT%, *2nd player to lead the league in scoring and assists, 48.8 FG%*), spencer haywoods (*30 ppg, 19.5 rebounds*), adrian dantley and larry birds season too. maybe throw a couple of wilt chamberlain's and bill russell's mythical years as well.



fyi, jordan's 72 win season is not even in my list above (*30.4 ppg 6.6 rpg 4.5 apg 2.2 spg 49%fg, 42%3fg, 83%ft MVP,Nba finals mvp, all nba defense 1st team*) . so im not pretty comfortable putting lebron's 08-09 season among the top 10 of all time. ill wait how this postseason progress.


----------



## GNG

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Somehow I get this feeling those two don't shoot 20+ times a game but since you're the World's Official Basketball Almanac and NBA's divine voice from the above - your point MUST be right.
> 
> Your whole assumptions here are a joke. You try, with your internet nerdy scientist ways to prove (to yourselves really, because no one else is buying it) that 54% shooting with 35 points per game isn't great shooting.
> 
> Further proving my previous thesis, I don't believe any of you ever picked up a real, physical basketball.
> 
> Seriously, who are you kidding with your trying-to-be-expert ****? Who even cares?
> 
> OK, let me start my own expert analysis, since I'm also a part of this World Basketball Experts Summit...
> 
> 
> Umm...Kareem is extremely overrated, not many of you know it, but he was a lot shorter when he was younger and if he didn't grow out to be that tall he wouldn't be this great center we all know.
> 
> So who else is realized D Howard will surpass Kareem?
> 
> 
> Also, Magic Johnson and that whole hype about him, assists and all, truth is, if his teammates didn't convert his passes to points, I assure you, he would NOT have that many assists in his stats.
> 
> Therefore, it's more than safe to say how Paul is on his way to pass Magic.
> 
> 
> And also, Larry Bird is always mentioned as this "great shooter".
> 
> Well, let me tell you this CASUAL FANS. Larry Bird was that great of a shooter because the ball always somehow went in the hoop.
> 
> But what if he missed more shots then he did? Would he be considered a great shooter?
> 
> No. Therefore, from now on, he's NOT a great shooter anymore. I said it. Now email it to Stern.
> 
> 
> Wow. Being a forum basketball expert is much easier than I thought.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Ray Allen doesn't even have 45% from the field in his career.
> 
> But you think he's great because he shoots 3's? Or? What...


:lol: :rofl: :lol:

In the BBF "Astoundingly Stupid Statements" list, this one tops the charts.


----------



## croco

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Eventhough Lebron's season was a great one, other players not listed already had similar if not better seasons, stat-wise: Wilt, Bird, Magic, David Robinson, Karl Malone, Jerry West, Rick BArry, Moses, etc., etc.
> 
> But that's elite company, alright...


Yeah, let's just ignore that all of the teams in the 60s and 70s would make the Golden State Warriors of today look like a grind it out, slow it down type team.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Nightmute said:


> You just look at raw numbers don't you?


ROFL. I just look at raw numbers? ROFL. Thats retarded. Those seasons are considered by majority of credible sportswriters as an all time best in league history.



Considering those players also won multiple titles and other individual accomplishments in those seasons mentioned above, I dont think its a smart thing to say that 'Its all about raw numbers" LOL.


----------



## bandits1

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



croco said:


> He isn't making anyone look foolish expect for himself. Most (like me) don't bother discussing or answering anymore because it is wasted time. He is an artist, a true master of ignoring reality, twisting facts and coming off as ignorant. I'm sure he doesn't even believe half of the utter nonsense himself.


Agreed. I think it's pretty clear to most that DNKO has nowhere to go with this argument, but it's also clear that he's not the type to admit when he's wrong, so he twists peoples facts and points around, avoids clearly answering questions, and turns it all into a big pissing-contest in an effort to smokescreen his defeat. If you can't even concede that Ray Allen is a better jump-shooter than Tony Parker, you are obviously deluded.

Seriously, I thought it was common knowledge that Jordan wasn't a great jump-shooter when he first came into the league.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I don't think you understand, Jordan sprung forth from the mind of Zeuss the perfect player. Didn't you ever see those commercials he made with Larry Bird? That was real!


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



croco said:


> Yeah, let's just ignore that all of the teams in the 60s and 70s would make the Golden State Warriors of today look like a grind it out, slow it down type team.


And since that we're at it, let's just ignore the 3 point shot being implemented; let's just ignore assists today are credited much more loosely; let's just ignore the game itself has been called much more loosely (palming, travelling, carrying...); let's just ignore that there is no physical basketball anymore; ley's just ignore that they are changing the rules of the game to make it easier to score; let´s just ignore...

The game has evolved, so it makes it a little akward (sp?) to compare players from different eras of basketball... But it goes BOTH ways, IMHO. I can see a guy like Bob Cousy watching the game today and saying to himself: man, if only they allowed me to do those things back in the day!


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> The game has evolved, so it makes it a little akward (sp?) to compare players from different eras of basketball... But it goes BOTH ways, IMHO.




Truth to be told. Each era will reflect an advantage over the other (vice versa) that people will used as an authoritative rule or pattern but in hindsight, every changes now and then will always contribute to a never ending speculative assessments. So let's put things in retrospect and respect the rules, abilities and evolution from the past while using the mindset and understanding for today's standards.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Ras said:


> Who's being a dick head? Who here has really insulted him? I don't see any seriously tasteless remarks (I think some called him young in a not so friendly way, but nothing seriously tasteless). Most here are just questioning his argument because he's seemed to make some baseless statements. Are people supposed to lay over because he shouldn't have to defend his position? The point of this message board is to discuss and debate. I think if we all just said "my opinion is different from yours. Cool." the conversation would get a little stale.


Ras,

IMO those are tasteless and juvenile. Because they have no merit to the discussion at all. You going to tell me, that if you have a bone to pick with someone's opinion you need to add salty remarks on top of it ? Well I disagree regardless of how serious you think they are.

I don't really think his statements are baseless. Nobody not one person, has shown any evidence if MJ was a bad jump shooter early in his career. All you have is rheteroic for and against MJ's jump shot early in his career. (If you look at the thread it's mostly against) and if you look at the thread it's mostly people arguing in favor of LeBron

I agree the board is here to discuss, but let's do it in a civil fair, and enterprising way, that includes everyone in a positive way. I'm sick that every time a few select posters have a difference opinion, they get the thread jacked by countless handles, that are out to not only argue the opinion, but do it so in a way they try to make the poster look stupid. I'm much more in favor of debating to learn from one another, not to come off as a pretentious *******.

Now..

As someone who's been watching the NBA since the early 80s, and falling in love with the Sixers, Celtics, Lakers, Pistons, and Bulls. I can swear to you that MJ's jump shot was never an issue. It wasn't picture perfect like it became as he worked on it, but he found the bottom of the basket more times than not. It also is true Mike was a very explosive player early in his career, and he got many dunks, lay ups, but he was still a very consistent jump shooter. 

Look, you have had many explosive players come into the league, who get' lot's of dunks lay ups early on in their career especially SG's and SF's. However the reason they didn't shoot 53 percent from the field, is because they didn't have a consistent jump shot.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I became an NBA fan when my father gave me my first basketball, a _San Diego_ Rockets basketball. As a kid my favourite players were the Rockets two best players, Cal Murphy & Elvin Hayes. Amongst we adults, I can assure you, Jordan's struggles with his jumpshot were a topic of conversation (when we were watching the Bulls play). It was most certainly a weakness in his game. _However_, unlike 99.99% of the guys that have ever played this game, Jordan became a great jumpshooter by the middle of his career. DNKO, and to a much lesser extent, yourself, seem to take it as a personal insult that Jordan wasn't already better than Magic, Oscar, and Lew combined by his eighth birthday. Jordan's ability to convert a weakness into a strength is a testament to his greatness, not a detraction from it. I sincerely doubt that James will ever get that good. Kobe never did. If anything, as a jumpshooter, I think James' arc will be a lot more like Bryant's, i.e., an inconsistent shooter with a knack for burying huge shots.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> I became an NBA fan when my father gave me my first basketball, a _San Diego_ Rockets basketball. As a kid my favourite players were the Rockets two best players, Cal Murphy & Elvin Hayes.


Damn chief, You're not old. You're Jurassic.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> I became an NBA fan when my father gave me my first basketball, a _San Diego_ Rockets basketball. As a kid my favourite players were the Rockets two best players, Cal Murphy & Elvin Hayes. Amongst we adults, I can assure you, Jordan's struggles with his jumpshot were a topic of conversation (when we were watching the Bulls play). It was most certainly a weakness in his game. _However_, unlike 99.99% of the guys that have ever played this game, Jordan became a great jumpshooter by the middle of his career. DNKO, and to a much lesser extent, yourself, seem to take it as a personal insult that Jordan wasn't already better than Magic, Oscar, and Lew combined by his eighth birthday. Jordan's ability to convert a weakness into a strength is a testament to his greatness, not a detraction from it. I sincerely doubt that James will ever get that good. Kobe never did. If anything, as a jumpshooter, I think James' arc will be a lot more like Bryant's, i.e., an inconsistent shooter with a knack for burying huge shots.


Not an insult at all. I know Jordan didn't have the same kind of jump shot initially, that he had by the early 90s. However his jump shot found the bottom of the bucket more times than not, even if it was ugly early in his career, I believe that's because he was as determined as any player to succeed in the game. When you have that confidence you are bound to get more rubber rims, more bounces, and thrive under pressure, where most guy's percentages would crumble. I believe it was MJ's first game as rookie, he won the game for the Bulls with a buzzer beater on a jump shot.

Also you keep mentioning people defending Jordan, i don't see an issue with that at all. You could put any great players name here and debate it, and if there is a minority debating in favor of that said great player, what's the problem ? It seems to me it's a gaggle of LeBron fans that have more issues, than any Jordan fans on here. Which there is obviously very few of, or very few that actually watched his progress and play through out his entire NBA career.

Also I would note - My favorite player was Dr. J, and Zeke when I first became an NBA fan. Not Michael Jordan.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Very odd but I grew up watching Mark Price and the Cavaliers, and always hated the Lakers (Celtics fans late 80's). Ive always hated Jordan. I started rooting for him when he came back from his 1st retirement though, the hype caught me and my love for the Bulls grew even more when Dennis went to Chi town.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> And since that we're at it, let's just ignore the 3 point shot being implemented; let's just ignore assists today are credited much more loosely; let's just ignore the game itself has been called much more loosely (palming, travelling, carrying...); let's just ignore that there is no physical basketball anymore; ley's just ignore that they are changing the rules of the game to make it easier to score; let´s just ignore...
> 
> The game has evolved, so it makes it a little akward (sp?) to compare players from different eras of basketball... But it goes BOTH ways, IMHO. I can see a guy like Bob Cousy watching the game today and saying to himself: man, if only they allowed me to do those things back in the day!


Offensive efficiency has been essentially the same outside of the Riley Ball era from the late 90's to early 00's. The amount of possession affects raw game totals more then all the rule changes/theoritical effects


----------



## Floods

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



bandits1 said:


> Great example. If DNKO doesn't concede the point after reading your post, I'm going to go ahead and assume he's 12 years old.


.......



DNKO said:


> Somehow I get this feeling those two don't shoot 20+ times a game but since you're the World's Official Basketball Almanac and NBA's divine voice from the above - your point MUST be right.
> 
> Your whole assumptions here are a joke. You try, with your internet nerdy scientist ways to prove (to yourselves really, because no one else is buying it) that 54% shooting with 35 points per game isn't great shooting.
> 
> Further proving my previous thesis, I don't believe any of you ever picked up a real, physical basketball.
> 
> Seriously, who are you kidding with your trying-to-be-expert ****? Who even cares?
> 
> OK, let me start my own expert analysis, since I'm also a part of this World Basketball Experts Summit...
> 
> 
> Umm...Kareem is extremely overrated, not many of you know it, but he was a lot shorter when he was younger and if he didn't grow out to be that tall he wouldn't be this great center we all know.
> 
> So who else is realized D Howard will surpass Kareem?
> 
> 
> Also, Magic Johnson and that whole hype about him, assists and all, truth is, if his teammates didn't convert his passes to points, I assure you, he would NOT have that many assists in his stats.
> 
> Therefore, it's more than safe to say how Paul is on his way to pass Magic.
> 
> 
> And also, Larry Bird is always mentioned as this "great shooter".
> 
> Well, let me tell you this CASUAL FANS. Larry Bird was that great of a shooter because the ball always somehow went in the hoop.
> 
> But what if he missed more shots then he did? Would he be considered a great shooter?
> 
> No. Therefore, from now on, he's NOT a great shooter anymore. I said it. Now email it to Stern.
> 
> 
> Wow. Being a forum basketball expert is much easier than I thought.


 
Well what did we learn today?


----------



## thebac

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Ras said:


> [...]
> 
> *Edit -* Also, you can't tell if Ray Allen is a better jump shooter then Tony Parker?


You can't tell if you don't watch the games...


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Well what did we learn today?


That DNKO was a grade school fanboy in the 90s that panics at the very thought that there may be a player that is one day considered better than his eight year old crush and has gone way off the deep end where LeBron is concerned.


----------



## John

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Why dont we just argue who is the better player between Ron Harper and Lebron James. I will say Ron Harper.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> ROFL. I just look at raw numbers? ROFL. Thats retarded. Those seasons are considered by majority of credible sportswriters as an all time best in league history.
> 
> 
> 
> Considering those players also won multiple titles and other individual accomplishments in those seasons mentioned above, I dont think its a smart thing to say that 'Its all about raw numbers" LOL.


Well then it's a good thing I didn't say "it's all about raw numbers." It was a simple question that you didn't answer.


----------



## SlamJam

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



John said:


> Why dont we just argue who is the better player between Ron Harper and Lebron James. I will say Ron Harper.


now here is something to discuss.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



SlamJam said:


> now here is something to discuss.


Hmmm... Though one. Are we talking about Cleveland's Ron Harper? The Clippers'? The Bulls'?


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Nightmute said:


> Well then it's a good thing I didn't say "it's all about raw numbers." It was a simple question that you didn't answer.


It does need any further breakdown. The players, their record breaking performances and legacy, all speaks for itself.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Okay let me rephrase the question, 'cause you're clearly not getting it. When comparing a players *production*, do you just look at basic stats, advanced stats or a combination of the two?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> That DNKO was a grade school fanboy in the 90s that panics at the very thought that there may be a player that is one day considered better than his eight year old crush and has gone way off the deep end where LeBron is concerned.



Interesting.






Now discuss.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Nightmute said:


> Okay let me rephrase the question, 'cause you're clearly not getting it. When comparing a players *production*, do you just look at basic stats, advanced stats or a combination of the two?


Me and Kflo were not talking about *productions* alone, I think that's already been established a few pages back. I know what you're inferring. You want to slip the holy grail of stats (PeR) in the conversation to prove a point. But im not impressed on PeR alone to define a players career. There is so much variables and methods to compare legendary achievements and simplify that by using PeR.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> Me and Kflo were not talking about *productions* alone, I think that's already been established a few pages back. I know what you're inferring. You want to slip the holy grail of stats (PeR) in the conversation to prove a point. But im not impressed on PeR alone to define a players career. There is so much variables and methods to compare legendary achievements and simplify that by using PeR.


Per is not the only pace adjusted stat.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



OMGBaselRocks! said:


> Me and Kflo were not talking about *productions* alone, I think that's already been established a few pages back. I know what you're inferring. You want to slip the holy grail of stats (PeR) in the conversation to prove a point. But im not impressed on PeR alone to define a players career. There is so much variables and methods to compare legendary achievements and simplify that by using PeR.


Jesus, your dense.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Nightmute said:


> Jesus, your dense.


Best comeback ever. I post stats and all you have are weak one liners. Pfft.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Ras,
> 
> IMO those are tasteless and juvenile. Because they have no merit to the discussion at all. You going to tell me, that if you have a bone to pick with someone's opinion you need to add salty remarks on top of it ? Well I disagree regardless of how serious you think they are


I can agree that the salty comments aren't necessary, because you're right, they add nothing to the discussion.



> I don't really think his statements are baseless. Nobody not one person, has shown any evidence if MJ was a bad jump shooter early in his career. All you have is rheteroic for and against MJ's jump shot early in his career. (If you look at the thread it's mostly against) and if you look at the thread it's mostly people arguing in favor of LeBron


I wouldn't say so, because no one has said LeBron is better at all. All people are saying is it's possible, and a lot of you seem to take offence to that. The reason no one has shown evidence of his lack of a jumper is because there probably isn't any data on that type of thing from those days. All we have are the people who saw it.



> I agree the board is here to discuss, but let's do it in a civil fair, and enterprising way, that includes everyone in a positive way. I'm sick that every time a few select posters have a difference opinion, they get the thread jacked by countless handles, that are out to not only argue the opinion, but do it so in a way they try to make the poster look stupid. I'm much more in favor of debating to learn from one another, not to come off as a pretentious *******.


I know you're probably aware, but quite a few people on both sides of the fence do that.



> Now..
> 
> As someone who's been watching the NBA since the early 80s, and falling in love with the Sixers, Celtics, Lakers, Pistons, and Bulls. I can swear to you that MJ's jump shot was never an issue. It wasn't picture perfect like it became as he worked on it, but he found the bottom of the basket more times than not. It also is true Mike was a very explosive player early in his career, and he got many dunks, lay ups, but he was still a very consistent jump shooter.
> 
> Look, you have had many explosive players come into the league, who get' lot's of dunks lay ups early on in their career especially SG's and SF's. However the reason they didn't shoot 53 percent from the field, is because they didn't have a consistent jump shot.


Or perhaps it just helped that he was Michael Jordan and could more or less get in there and finish as he pleased? I think Tony Parker was around 50% earlier in his career when he didn't have much a jumper to speak of. If you finish inside all the time, you're bound to have a much better shooting percentage. All I've heard from people in that time was his jumper was quite inconsistent for a few years and he got his points by getting inside whenever he wanted; he only developed a consistent jumper as his career passed.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Despite the unbelievable hype throughout his career, I legitimately believe MJ's game was UNDERRATED. People have talked so much trash about his so-called "weak" jumper. Are you kidding me? His jumper was of picture perfect form by the end of his VERY FIRST YEAR playing for North Carolina!

Although he didn't have the sick dribbling skills of the youngsters who followed him, neither did he palm the ball every time he dribbled, either. Without a shadow of a doubt, absolutely no one in the history of the game has approached Michael Jordan's fundamentals. Jump shot included. 

LeBron's as bad as this boy is, has a jump shot rivaling Tim Hardaway's knuckler for ugliness. Kobe's J is superior to LeBron's, but nowhere near as pretty as Michael's. And that hang time let Michael double clutch at will, too. Debate over, LeBron is no Michael Jordan.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I think you guys are all missing the point. Jordan had a very good jumper. But his shooting was still a weakness of sorts. This is because his jumper was only very good a step or two inside the three point line. He didn't have legitimate three point range, which could be construed as a weakness. He sort of got better three point range later, but he never really was a legit three point threat except in the years he played where the three point line had been moved in.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

That's true, but keep in mind that the NBA 3 was only adopted in 1980, and the 3 did not exist at all in college basketball until 1987. In other words, MJ didn't work on his 3 point range at all in college or high school, and had to start working on it cold in the pros. In college when he played, it would've been foolish to work on a 25 foot jump shot when it counted for two, just like any other shot. 

The youngsters these days, they start shooting three's in elementary school and hence integrate it into their game from day one.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> I think you guys are all missing the point. Jordan had a very good jumper. But his shooting was still a weakness of sorts. This is because his jumper was only very good a step or two inside the three point line. He didn't have legitimate three point range, which could be construed as a weakness. He sort of got better three point range later, but he never really was a legit three point threat except in the years he played where the three point line had been moved in.


The distance of the three point line doesn't make you a good or bad 3 point shooter, just from the distance you put your work in. MJ is the greatest interior basketball player ever. His need to be a 3 point specialist wasn't a major factor for his game. Also having a career 33 percent FG from 3 isn't all that bad. Also there's been plenty of great shooters that have come from over seas, and there 3 point distance is shorter than that of the NBA's 23'9", I believe in Fiba basketball the distance is 22'. Which is what the NBA made it in the NBA for a season or two. Then changed it back to the 23'9" in 1997.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Despite the unbelievable hype throughout his career, I legitimately believe MJ's game was UNDERRATED. People have talked so much trash about his so-called "weak" jumper. Are you kidding me? His jumper was of picture perfect form by the end of his VERY FIRST YEAR playing for North Carolina!
> 
> Although he didn't have the sick dribbling skills of the youngsters who followed him, neither did he palm the ball every time he dribbled, either. Without a shadow of a doubt, absolutely no one in the history of the game has approached Michael Jordan's fundamentals. Jump shot included.
> 
> LeBron's as bad as this boy is, has a jump shot rivaling Tim Hardaway's knuckler for ugliness. Kobe's J is superior to LeBron's, but nowhere near as pretty as Michael's. And that hang time let Michael double clutch at will, too. Debate over, LeBron is no Michael Jordan.


how lebron's shot looks is irrelevant.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> The distance of the three point line doesn't make you a good or bad 3 point shooter, just from the distance you put your work in. MJ is the greatest interior basketball player ever. His need to be a 3 point specialist wasn't a major factor for his game. Also having a career 33 percent FG from 3 isn't all that bad. Also there's been plenty of great shooters that have come from over seas, and there 3 point distance is shorter than that of the NBA's 23'9", I believe in Fiba basketball the distance is 22'. Which is what the NBA made it in the NBA for a season or two. Then changed it back to the 23'9" in 1997.



I didnt say the distance made you good or bad at three point shooting. I said he was only a true three-point threat in the years they moved the three point line in a couple feet, because he was good at that range. When it was at 23"9' the three-pointer wasn't a major part of his arsenal.

Anyways, he would've been well served to have a three point shot in his arsenal just like any player would be. It makes your drives even harder to stop, because the opposing player has to guard you close from the time you're near the three point line. 

I don't fault Jordan for not having three point range though. As someone mentioned, he learned basketball in an era in which the three was not used in college and only rarely shot in the pros. He eventually learned it enough that it had to be respected to some degree.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I like how Kobe's jumper looks compared to Jordan. Especially from deep. It's like watching someone throw darts. Jordan never had Kobe's range. Heck, I don't know that he ever had Lebron's range. Lebron likes to pull up at video game type ranges at times. Just because he can.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> I didnt say the distance made you good or bad at three point shooting. I said he was only a true three-point threat in the years they moved the three point line in a couple feet, because he was good at that range. When it was at 23"9' the three-pointer wasn't a major part of his arsenal.
> 
> Anyways, he would've been well served to have a three point shot in his arsenal just like any player would be. It makes your drives even harder to stop, because the opposing player has to guard you close from the time you're near the three point line.
> 
> I don't fault Jordan for not having three point range though. As someone mentioned, he learned basketball in an era in which the three was not used in college and only rarely shot in the pros. He eventually learned it enough that it had to be respected to some degree.


Yes, this I agree with. 

Although MJ hit the 3 ball shot when he needed to though. I'm sure you are well aware of all this buzzer beater 3's, and of course his amazing 3 point shooting during the Blazers in the finals in one game in particular. That finals the line hadn't been moved back yet. 

Food for thought here -

Kobe Bryant career 34% 3 point shooter.

LeBron James career 33% 3 point shooter.

Michael Jordan career 33% 3 point shooter.

Yet people want to make a big deal about MJ's 3 point shooting ? seems a bit asinine to me. Considering all three of these players are great, but not great 3 point shooters, but IMO don't really need to be as they have other ways to dominate the game than being a 3 point specialist.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Yeah but there is a difference between those three despite their similar percentages. 

With Kobe, you HAVE to respect the three. With LeBron, you have to pay some attention to it. You cant give him too much space. With Jordan, it wasn't really an issue at all. 

Also, Jordan's percentages are artificially high given that about a third of his three pointers were shot when the line was closer.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> I like how Kobe's jumper looks compared to Jordan. Especially from deep. It's like watching someone throw darts. Jordan never had Kobe's range. Heck, I don't know that he ever had Lebron's range. Lebron likes to pull up at video game type ranges at times. Just because he can.


























I guess his below 10% nights are also "because he can"

LMFAO this is real quality


----------



## Dornado

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

^I love how people think you could just sag off of Michael from 3... ask the '92 Trail Blazers how that works.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

No no

Jordan never had James' range. We all know how dangerous he is from the perimeter.


We will probably see a lot of his 60 feet shots because if they go against Orlando, you won't see any crab dribbling to the hoop, it will all be those sweet pull up jumpers, and last year against Boston we saw how that works.


Also, among many coaches here that share undeniable basketball advices and opinions here, I love few of the common premises here the most.


For instance, this futuresomething saying how Lebron has range.......basically because James pulls up from 30 feet from time to time.


Now, when he misses 10 feet jumpers, or layups, that's ok, that doesn't apply, but when he has one game in 82 game season where he knocks down couple of deep 3's - "he got range"


That pretty much sums up all the homerism of todays NBA fans.


Hence his "elite defender" status. Although I can't remember single player he actually shut down this year.

Kobe maybe? Or Pierce? But it's also amazing how quickly he improved.


Last year in pivotal game 7 his lockdown defense allowed Pierce to go ballistic on him, while this year his NBA GOAT defender.


Yes, moar!! LOL



And SMH @ Jordan's basketball IQ not shooting 50 feet shots for the sake of homer fans.

I really think Jordan coulnd't make a three in his early career.

Talk about talentless.


Imagine, he's a athletic freak, has the best mid-range jumper NBA ever saw, plays with players like Hodges or Paxson and he DOESNT go pulling up for random 3's with 20 seconds on the clock left?


Boo. I still don't understand why don't they just erase him from NBA. Such a overhyped player.

Not like James. He never got his hype. Only quality results.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

jordan was a 29% 3 point shooter with the line at regular distance. he simply had less range. and while it's certainly true that his circumstances were different (no 3 point shot in hs or college), it's still a fact that he was a 29% 3 point shooter with the line back. which isn't very good.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

dnko, why do you invent arguments to argue against in every post?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Well, if you see how many shots he took while shooting 29%......1 per game...

Which means...he didn't even try to shoot 3's.


For you to sit in front of your PC and assume he didn't have the range is very forum-ish, also translated as dumb.


You seriously think that he didn't have the "range"?


Again, like in many discussions here, some of you throw some terms around but don't even know what they mean.

Also, MJ's 1.7 attempted 3's per game compared to James' 4...makes you go hmmm.


But what's with the overall field goal %? 


Jordan's *career* FG % even with his lame 3 pointers is still better than James' best *single season*.

With Wizards, atrocious 3 pointer shooting with "no range" (according to forum coaches) and .... a lot more points per game.

Talk about tragic.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

can you translate that for me?

so if he shot more than 1 per game his % would have improved? he was really a good 3 point shooter, he just didn't hit them often? 

i have no idea what your point about the wizards was.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Jordan's career FG%, combined all together with his bad 3 point shooting and with those seasons as a 40 year old Wizard, where he was really shooting bad - hence - bringing his numbers down, all those combined...

are better than James' best single season to date in shooting.



And I don't know how many 3's would he make if he took more than 1 per game. I don't do stats like that. He had other players on his team for 3's. He didn't bother with it.

But hey....somehow he still holds some 3 pointer related records in this league...for 17 years. LOL


PS - Range, for all you wannabe GM's on forum, is not the ability to shoot from the mid court.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

jordan's career ts% is 56.9%. lebron's this year was 59.1% ts%. learn it. live it.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

has anyone said range means the ability to shoot from mid-court?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

1) still doesn't compare to MJ's best TS
2) nobody really cares about those nerd stats

Basically, the game of basketball, the game of NBA basketball, is about scoring, and winning.

The other hoopla is for places like this. Which is also why you won't ever hear nobody alive on TV saying anything about TS.

Why? Because people that are in it for real, real coaches and players, are not impressed by nerdy stats like you people are.


I gave this TS crap a little bit of investigation, turns out...

...all time NBA+ABA leader in TS is Cedric Maxwell.

I never realized how beneficial was TS% to his career. Cedric's the best. And he's followed by Artis Gilmore, James Donaldson and Adrian Dantley.


Impressive. TS is the only truth.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

ts% is a better measure of scoring efficiency than fg%. FACT. 

to reject ts% is to say i don't care about facts. 

btw, the career leaders in fg% are gilmore, shaq, mark west, steve johnson, darryl dawkins and james donaldson, with bo outlaw also in the top 10.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> 1) still doesn't compare to MJ's best TS
> 2) nobody really cares about those nerd stats
> 
> Basically, the game of basketball, the game of NBA basketball, is about scoring, and winning.
> 
> The other hoopla is for places like this. Which is also why you won't ever hear nobody alive on TV saying anything about TS.
> 
> Why? Because people that are in it for real, real coaches and players, are not impressed by nerdy stats like you people are.
> 
> 
> I gave this TS crap a little bit of investigation, turns out...
> 
> ...all time NBA+ABA leader in TS is Cedric Maxwell.
> 
> I never realized how beneficial was TS% to his career. Cedric's the best. And he's followed by Artis Gilmore, James Donaldson and Adrian Dantley.
> 
> 
> Impressive. TS is the only truth.


Why do you even bother arguing if your intent is just to make the other person look foolish by exaggerating and putting words in their mouths without giving any regards to actually being open minded about the topic at hand?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Dornado said:


> ^I love how people think you could just sag off of Michael from 3... ask the '92 Trail Blazers how that works.


Well, wouldn't 1992 count as the middle of his career? Just a thought.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Needless to say, the important distinction between LeBron and Michael is that the latter has won six rings. LeBron will almost inevitably win ONE, maybe more, but so far, NADA. 

Also, Michael Jordan's been hitting game winning jump shots ever since he was born. LeBron, not so much. 

In addition, Michael was averaging over 37 points a game by the time he was 24 years old.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Needless to say, the important distinction between LeBron and Michael is that the latter has won six rings. LeBron will almost inevitably win ONE, maybe more, but so far, NADA.


true.



michelangelo said:


> Also, Michael Jordan's been hitting game winning jump shots ever since he was born. LeBron, not so much.


take a look at lebron's actual clutch statistics over the last 2 years.



michelangelo said:


> In addition, Michael was averaging over 37 points a game by the time he was 24 years old.


jordan's 37 point season was not as good as lebron's season this year, imo.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> jordan's 37 point season was not as good as lebron's season this year, imo.


your opinion's wrong. Sorry.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> 1) still doesn't compare to MJ's best TS


jordan's best ts% was 61.4%. that is better than 59.1% but the two definitely are comparable.



> 2) nobody really cares about those nerd stats


what you mean is that you don't care about stats you don't understand. clearly people care about those "nerd stats".



> Basically, the game of basketball, the game of NBA basketball, is about scoring, and winning.


there is much more to the game of basketball than that.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> I gave this TS crap a little bit of investigation, turns out...
> 
> ...all time NBA+ABA leader in TS is Cedric Maxwell.
> 
> I never realized how beneficial was TS% to his career. Cedric's the best. And he's followed by Artis Gilmore, James Donaldson and Adrian Dantley.
> 
> 
> Impressive. TS is the only truth.


have you ever tried giving simple field goal percentage a little investigation? the top five there are artis gilmore, shaq, mark west, steve johnson, and darryl dawkins. does that mean it is useless?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I can only say that my perception of the game was never a stat sheet. I couldn't care less about someones scoring. Of course it's "important" but, well I think I summed it up best in my signature.

There are NUMEROUS players in the league that could score 30 if you gave them the right or DEMANDED them to shoot 25 times a game and have most of offensive plays in their hands.

But I don't care if you can score 200 points a game, on 100/100 shooting. Seriously, if you can't convert that into domination and winning, you suck.

I never watched MJ because I wanted to see him score 30. I watched him because nobody controled the game like he did. Now you can try to persuade yourself that that's what James is doing now, he isn't. He lost over half of games against elite teams this year, he never shut down Kobe or any of his direct competitors, he rather opted for shootouts against him, or Wade etc. That's not domination. 

And let's not even adress how he shrinks against Orlando with Howard in the paint, his whole game style changes.

Lucky for him he plays in the era of pathetic centers.

Seriously, Ming, Howard, and who else is the real elite center in this league? Who? No one. I said elite, not "good" or "will be good one day". Shaq is 62362 years old, he doesn't count anymore. 

It may burn some of you on the inside to see MJ's throne still this damn untouchable after all these years, (well, not THAT many years but in todays microwave times, everything now generation, 1 month ago is old and 2 months ago is old school.) but that's not my responsibility.

And it also may hurt you that MJ dominated with Longley and Wennington, while every other single dynasty had HOF center or PF in their team.

Well...it sucks. I know. But what can we do about it. Nothing much.

And where were these TS's and other stats before? Should we blindly follow them to compare who's better? So if some TS or PER or whatever is let's say on Magics favor, is he better than Bird? Or vice versa? How so? 

Basketball is so much more than damn stats. To put it in words of famous slogan of the best team ever.


----------



## GNG

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> No no
> 
> Jordan never had James' range. We all know how dangerous he is from the perimeter.
> 
> 
> We will probably see a lot of his 60 feet shots because if they go against Orlando, you won't see any crab dribbling to the hoop, it will all be those sweet pull up jumpers, and last year against Boston we saw how that works.
> 
> 
> Also, among many coaches here that share undeniable basketball advices and opinions here, I love few of the common premises here the most.
> 
> 
> For instance, this futuresomething saying how Lebron has range.......basically because James pulls up from 30 feet from time to time.
> 
> 
> Now, when he misses 10 feet jumpers, or layups, that's ok, that doesn't apply, but when he has one game in 82 game season where he knocks down couple of deep 3's - "he got range"
> 
> 
> That pretty much sums up all the homerism of todays NBA fans.
> 
> 
> Hence his "elite defender" status. Although I can't remember single player he actually shut down this year.
> 
> Kobe maybe? Or Pierce? But it's also amazing how quickly he improved.
> 
> 
> Last year in pivotal game 7 his lockdown defense allowed Pierce to go ballistic on him, while this year his NBA GOAT defender.
> 
> 
> Yes, moar!! LOL
> 
> 
> 
> And SMH @ Jordan's basketball IQ not shooting 50 feet shots for the sake of homer fans.
> 
> I really think Jordan coulnd't make a three in his early career.
> 
> Talk about talentless.
> 
> 
> Imagine, he's a athletic freak, has the best mid-range jumper NBA ever saw, plays with players like Hodges or Paxson and he DOESNT go pulling up for random 3's with 20 seconds on the clock left?
> 
> 
> Boo. I still don't understand why don't they just erase him from NBA. Such a overhyped player.
> 
> Not like James. He never got his hype. Only quality results.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> It may burn some of you on the inside to see MJ's throne still this damn untouchable after all these years, (well, not THAT many years but in todays microwave times, everything now generation, 1 month ago is old and 2 months ago is old school.) but that's not my responsibility.


jordan isn't untouchable.



> And where were these TS's and other stats before? Should we blindly follow them to compare who's better? So if some TS or PER or whatever is let's say on Magics favor, is he better than Bird? Or vice versa? How so?


no one ever said to blindly follow anything. 

and where were these stats before? is that a real question? do 3 point shots not count because there wasn't a 3 point line in the past? do blocks not count because they use to not keep track of them?


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I lived in Chicago throughout Jordan's playing career, so I'm a bit of a Jordan homer, and even I have to say that DNKO is being a fool.

TS% definitely matters more than FG%. It's not particularly nerdy. All it does is measure how many points a player gets each time they attempt to take a shot. It doesnt take a complex formula at all. 

Now, with that said, in some seasons Jordan had higher TS%s than LeBron did this season. However, he played in at a higher pace. For instance, in 1989, when Jordan had his highest TS%, his team played 97 possessions a game. The Cavs only take 88.7 possessions a game this year. Faster pace = more efficient shooting (not necessarily more efficient offense because turnovers and offensive rebounds favor a faster pace, but definitely more efficient shooting).

However, there is more to offense than efficiency in shooting. Jordan turned the ball over VERY little. That was actually what made him such a good offensive player. LeBron doesnt turn the ball over a lot, but he turns it over more than Jordan. Jordan also got slightly more offensive rebounds from a smaller position. However, LeBron is a far superior passer to Jordan, as demonstrated by his 38% assist %, something Jordan never even got close to. 

Overall, this year, James' offense was comparable to Jordan's offense. Fact.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> I lived in Chicago throughout Jordan's playing career, so I'm a bit of a Jordan homer, and even I have to say that DNKO is being a fool.
> 
> TS% definitely matters more than FG%. It's not particularly nerdy. All it does is measure how many points a player gets each time they attempt to take a shot. It doesnt take a complex formula at all.
> 
> Now, with that said, in some seasons Jordan had higher TS%s than LeBron did this season. However, he played in at a higher pace. For instance, in 1989, when Jordan had his highest TS%, his team played 97 possessions a game. The Cavs only take 88.7 possessions a game this year. Faster pace = more efficient shooting (not necessarily more efficient offense because turnovers and offensive rebounds favor a faster pace, but definitely more efficient shooting).


Doesn't faster pace mean the opposite? That means your 9FTA a game mean less and therefore have to rely more on your actual FG% due to the pace of the game.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Poo said:


> your opinion's wrong. Sorry.


no yours is.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Poo said:


> Doesn't faster pace mean the opposite? That means your 9FTA a game mean less and therefore have to rely more on your actual FG% due to the pace of the game.


I'm trying to figure out what pace has to do with it at all. TS% is just scoring efficiency expressed as a percentage. For perimeter scorers aFG% and TS% are really the only numbers that matter.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

i don't know if there's been an actual correlation between pace and ts%.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> no yours is.


That was rude. At least I apologized.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

What we do know is that the overall FG% of the league was significantly higher when Jordan entered the league than when Lebron entered the league. So while Jordan scored at some really amazing percentages, it might not have been even as far in front of the league average as Lebron has been. I don't have the numbers in front of me, so I can't look it up.

None of this is of course to diminish what Jordan did. But the fact of the matter is that in discussions like this, there are always groups of people who are really passionate arguing one way or another, and it's hard to really get an objective look at things. That's where stats come in. The guys that want to try to diminish stats and act like people who use them as an educational tool are nerds are the people who generally have a weak argument and are getting too emotional trying to protect their favorite player by any means necessary. 

You really need to look at things like pace/league averages/etc. when comparing players. Everyone knows that two eras are different and you can't just take numbers from one era and put them in another. It's why judging Wilt and Oscar by today's standards is difficult. But you have to do it if you are really looking for an objective measure of truth. 

I applaud those in this thread who are actually looking at what the numbers are instead of dismissing the idea outright. I think the notion that 'nobody could ever be better than Jordan' is real cop-out.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

the fact is that jordan finished 6th in ts% in '89 while leading the league in scoring by a pretty wide margin. and that's pretty ridiculous for a perimeter player.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Sports Illustrated had a recent feature on Lebron and their take was that when you examine LeBron's stats within his own era, rather than across eras, he has a bigger edge over his competition than players past. 

LeBron to me, has a different mix of gifts than Michael Jordan, but overall, he is reminiscent of Shaq in his prime at a different position: ridiculously strong and agile, effective as a bulldozer razing a taco stand, or a bull running through a china shop, but one which freezes up at the sight of a red cape. 

Yes, LeBron is a man child. Yes, he is effective. But when it comes to figuring out a way to win in the clutch, that is, finishing a game in the final seconds especially in the playoffs, especially in the finals, there is no comparison to MJ. 

There have been countless players who have been compared physically and statistically to MJ, and quite frankly, some are more physically gifted, such as Vince Carter, whose dunks are incomparable, but mentally, they are nowhere near MJ. 

Statistically, AI was being compared to MJ early in his career. And we saw what happened there. 

Kobe's great, but right now he's pouting his way through the playoffs, and got bum rushed by Paul Pierce in last year's finals. 

There's just no player ever who's averaged 30 points a game, shot 50% from the field over his career, and won six rings, all consecutively in full seasons. And I doubt LeBron will ever reach that lofty status, or even approach it.

*In conclusion: when LeBron wins SIX STRAIGHT TITLES AND IS THE MVP OF SIX STRAIGHT FINALS, then we have this conversation again. *


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

what's the point of bringing up guys like iverson and carter, guys already obviously already easily surpassed by lebron? 

it's funny that we're getting the "ways to win" argument against lebron, 20 years after we were getting the same arguments against jordan. 

lebron does not need to match jordan's every step to arguably pass him. his circumstances will be different, his competition will be different, his peers different and the game different. he needs to set the bar high with his performance and level of play. with what he brings to the game, what we see. he'll need success of course, but he doesn't need 6 rings and 6 finals mvp's. jordan didn't need to pass magic or kareem or russell's rings.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

It's because those players were compared to MJ early on in their careers as well. As was Jerry Stackhouse, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, T-Mac, even Harold Miner (Baby Jordan), among others. In the early stages of their respective careers, these players were thought to be worthy of comparison, as is the case with LeBron and to a lesser extent, Kobe today.

But as we have seen, it is awfully difficult to conjure up the skill, competitiveness and flat out will power of a player with 10 scoring titles, 5 regular season MVP's and 6 rings and 6 Finals MVP's. 

LeBron is no Michael, and never will be, but he is one heck of a player in his own right.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> LeBron is no Michael, and never will be, but he is one heck of a player in his own right.


you're right. lebron won't ever be michael. but he might be better than jordan. he might be worse. either one is a possible outcome.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

The one thing Lebron WON'T be is a better version of Jordan. So people can't expect that. Jordan was much more of a pure scorer than Lebron. That probably will never change. But he brings things to the table that Jordan didn't. He is a better playmaker and has size that allows him to be more versatile defensively, even if not a better shut down defender. He can pull down important rebounds with greater ease. 

It's just a different skillset, which in itself makes it hard to compare the two. But I just want people to keep in mind that nobody should expect him to be a better version of Jordan, because he's not. He's more of a combination of Magic and Jordan, with a combination of each of their strengths along with his own unique set of weaknesses. It's hard to judge him by comparing him to past greats because he doesn't really fit the mold of any of them.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> It's because those players were compared to MJ early on in their careers as well. As was Jerry Stackhouse, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, T-Mac, even Harold Miner (Baby Jordan), among others. In the early stages of their respective careers, these players were thought to be worthy of comparison, as is the case with LeBron and to a lesser extent, Kobe today.


don't you see how silly it is to point to players who were never as good as lebron is now as somehow evidence lebron will never be as good as jordan? and harold miner was called baby jordan in freakin college. he wasn't drafted till 12th after 3 years in college. 



michelangelo said:


> But as we have seen, it is awfully difficult to conjure up the skill, competitiveness and flat out will power of a player with 10 scoring titles, 5 regular season MVP's and 6 rings and 6 Finals MVP's.


we've already seen a player with the skill competitiveness nad will power to be better than the guys you just mentioned. 




michelangelo said:


> LeBron is no Michael, and never will be, but he is one heck of a player in his own right.


jordan is no magic and never will be.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Poo said:


> Doesn't faster pace mean the opposite? That means your 9FTA a game mean less and therefore have to rely more on your actual FG% due to the pace of the game.


You would get the free throw line more if you had more possessions though...

Fast pace can lead to throwing up shots instead of driving to the hoop and getting fouled, but it doesnt have to, and in this case, the players we are talking about wouldnt do that no matter the pace. Both players would drive to the hoop. The point is, that when Jordan was getting higher TS%s than LeBron (which he only did in 85 as well as 1988-1991) he was playing in an era with a higher pace, meaning more fast break opportunities to bolster your TS%.

Regardless, though, this is all sorta irrelevant. LeBron's TS% is .591 this year. Jordans BEST was .614. The difference there is negligible. Furthermore, Jordan was not a PARTICULARLY efficient scorer. His offensive prowess came from the fact that he scored a lot at a pretty efficient clip WITHOUT turning the ball over much at all. LeBron turns it over more. He also gets less offensive rebounds. But he passes A LOT better. They are different players with different strengths. You can't just take one aspect of the game in trying to explain which one was better.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Well, I can see you're riding LeBron's jock pretty hard. No point in debating someone who takes these arguments personally. 



kflo said:


> don't you see how silly it is to point to players who were never as good as lebron is now as somehow evidence lebron will never be as good as jordan? and harold miner was called baby jordan in freakin college. he wasn't drafted till 12th after 3 years in college.
> 
> 
> 
> we've already seen a player with the skill competitiveness nad will power to be better than the guys you just mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jordan is no magic and never will be.


----------



## Luke

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Sports Illustrated had a recent feature on Lebron and their take was that when you examine LeBron's stats within his own era, rather than across eras, he has a bigger edge over his competition than players past.
> 
> LeBron to me, has a different mix of gifts than Michael Jordan, but overall, he is reminiscent of Shaq in his prime at a different position: ridiculously strong and agile, effective as a bulldozer razing a taco stand, or a bull running through a china shop, but one which freezes up at the sight of a red cape.
> 
> Yes, LeBron is a man child. Yes, he is effective. But when it comes to figuring out a way to win in the clutch, that is, finishing a game in the final seconds especially in the playoffs, especially in the finals, there is no comparison to MJ.
> 
> There have been countless players who have been compared physically and statistically to MJ, and quite frankly, some are more physically gifted, such as Vince Carter, whose dunks are incomparable, but mentally, they are nowhere near MJ.
> 
> Statistically, AI was being compared to MJ early in his career. And we saw what happened there.
> 
> Kobe's great, but right now he's pouting his way through the playoffs, and got bum rushed by Paul Pierce in last year's finals.
> 
> There's just no player ever who's averaged 30 points a game, shot 50% from the field over his career, and won six rings, all consecutively in full seasons. And I doubt LeBron will ever reach that lofty status, or even approach it.
> 
> *In conclusion: when LeBron wins SIX STRAIGHT TITLES AND IS THE MVP OF SIX STRAIGHT FINALS, then we have this conversation again. *


Jordan never won six straight championships.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

People who are saying "Lets have this conversation when LeBron wins 6 titles" obviously lack some reading comprehension. The title of this thread is "LeBron IS GOING TO pass Jordan." That is future tense. No one is saying LeBron could be considered a better player already, just that he might end up being considered as such by the time his career is over, given that he is statisically comparable, and looks to be in the hunt for a title every year for the next decade.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Jordan won six straight whenever he played a full season from 1990-1998.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

btw, the point on jordan and magic was that 20 years ago people were saying jordan would never win like magic.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Jordan won six straight whenever he played a full season from 1990-1998.


whenever he had an all-star caliber pf and a hof sf. the one year he didn't have the pf they lost. just so happened to be the year he came back. 

fact is jordan won 6 titles in his 13 trips to the playoffs.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Also, compare Jordan's defensive numbers to Lebron's at the *age of 24:
*
Jordan: 259 steals *(3.2 steals per game)*, 131 *(1.6) blocks* at 6'5" (listed 6'6")

Lebron: 137 steals *(1.7 per game)*, 93 *(1.1) blocks* at 6'7" (listed 6'8")

At *age 23:*

Jordan: 236/125 *(2.9, 1.5)*

LeBron: 138/81 *(1.8, 1.1)*

Michael, at the same age, and two inches shorter, had superior numbers in both blocks and steals. He was also the most feared defender in the league, bar none. 

In other words, Jordan, the shorter player by two inches, blocked 50% more shots, and stole the ball nearly twice as often. No surprise he went on to become 9X all defense first team NBA.


----------



## Luke

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

^ You could get away with a helluva lot more physical perimeter defense back in those days, put LeBron back then and he'd average more steals and blocks too. Probobly not as much as Jordan, but he'd close the gap quite a bit.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

You might also want to point out that Jordan only played 17 games in the season they didn't win a championship.



kflo said:


> whenever he had an all-star caliber pf and a hof sf. the one year he didn't have the pf they lost. just so happened to be the year he came back.
> 
> fact is jordan won 6 titles in his 13 trips to the playoffs.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

their block % at age 24 is the same. 2.4%.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

But it would also lead to LeBron having a much lower shooting percentage as well. His best year so far is *49% at age 24*. Michael Jordan shot a ridiculous *53.5% at age 24* facing constant double and triple teams against very physical defenses. Those guys could regularly get away not only with hand checks, but a forearm in your back as you brought the ball up!



VanillaPrice said:


> ^ You could get away with a helluva lot more physical perimeter defense back in those days, put LeBron back then and he'd average more steals and blocks too. Probobly not as much as Jordan, but he'd close the gap quite a bit.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> You might also want to point out that Jordan only played 17 games in the season they didn't win a championship.


and all the games in the playoffs. again, they didn't win 7 times. 

which of course is still awesome. but he wasn't invincible. the years you're mostly referencing statistically are the years he didn't win.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> But it would also lead to LeBron having a much lower shooting percentage as well. His best year so far is *49% at age 24*. Michael Jordan shot a ridiculous *53.5% at age 24* facing constant double and triple teams against very physical defenses. Those guys could regularly get away not only with hand checks, but a forearm in your back as you brought the ball up!


the league fg% was 48% when jordan was 24. league fg% when lebron is 24 is 46%. but again, fg% is far less meaningful than ts%.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Jordan got more steals and blocks and was probably a better lockdown defender on his man (although, LeBron's body means he can guard bigger players than Jordan can and that counts for a lot) as well as probably a better help defender. LeBron runs his teams defense though. He probably has a bigger impact on the defensive end than Jordan did, despite being a lesser defensive player.

And again, titles are irrelevant. No one is saying LeBron is equal to Jordan now. The assumption is that if he doesnt get injured and continues to get better (age 24 is NOT his prime) while having a team around him of similar caliber to the Cavs now (which isnt that tough cause they don't have anyone super special surrounding him), then he will continue to have 60+ win seasons and be one of the favorites for the title every year for the next decade. If the cavs are one of the favorites every year for a decade, he will certainly get his share of titles to rival Jordan. That is what is likely to happen. If it does, he might be considered better than Jordan.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

The point is, who's better at age 24? If you want to argue that LeBron can be better, he should be _at least_ as good by age 24, or at least very close. And LeBron is close. But so was AI. So was Vince Carter. So was Anfernee, arguably. You could even make the claim that pre ankle surgery Grant Hill showed signs of Air-ness. At age 24 or whatever. But ultimately, they never came close. 

If LeBron wants to approach Michael's status, he will have to:

1. become the league's best lock down defender, bar none.

2. lead the league in scoring 10 times.

3. outwork not only every teammate, but every other player in the league during practices.

4. demoralize every other possible MVP candidate in the league who tries to guard him. 

5. force other teams to create a secret, alternative set of "rules" to cope with one player in the league in particular. 

And that's just for starters...


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

no, that's not for starters. he needs to have people believe he's playing at a higher overall level. that's for starters.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I'd have to strongly disagree with both points. Michael Jordan, very early on, developed a reputation as the best defender in the league, because of his athleticism, tenacity, and sheer determination. Go back and listen to ANY of his peers talk about Michael's defense. To a man, EVERY player interviewed about Jordan during his prime acknowledged he was the league's best defender. 

Right now, I can name AT LEAST five players in the league who I would pick as a superior defender to LeBron: Battier, Artest, and Kobe come to mind immediately. As does Garnett. LeBron is a top ten defender, not FAR AND AWAY THE BEST, which Michael clearly was. 

Also, there are plenty of teams that have won 55, 60 plus games consistently but failed to make any noise, much less win consecutive or even three peat titles. Too many to name there. 





lessthanjake said:


> Jordan got more steals and blocks and was probably a better lockdown defender on his man (although, LeBron's body means he can guard bigger players than Jordan can and that counts for a lot) as well as probably a better help defender. LeBron runs his teams defense though. He probably has a bigger impact on the defensive end than Jordan did, despite being a lesser defensive player.
> 
> And again, titles are irrelevant. No one is saying LeBron is equal to Jordan now. The assumption is that if he doesnt get injured and continues to get better (age 24 is NOT his prime) while having a team around him of similar caliber to the Cavs now (which isnt that tough cause they don't have anyone super special surrounding him), then he will continue to have 60+ win seasons and be one of the favorites for the title every year for the next decade. If the cavs are one of the favorites every year for a decade, he will certainly get his share of titles to rival Jordan. That is what is likely to happen. If it does, he might be considered better than Jordan.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

But people don't believe that, generally speaking. YOU DO. 

For the record:

1. LeBron is NOT the top defender in the league, although he is in the top ten.

2. LeBron has never led the league in scoring. 

3. LeBron does not face double, much less triple teams with anywhere near the frequency that Jordan did. And LeBron has the luxury of not having to deal with handchecks and forearms in the back from his defenders. 

LeBron is greatly respected, but Michael's offense AND defense forced teams to evolve to a degree that was completely unnecessary prior to his arrival. 



kflo said:


> no, that's not for starters. he needs to have people believe he's playing at a higher overall level. that's for starters.


----------



## Luke

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> But people don't believe that, generally speaking. YOU DO.
> 
> For the record:
> 
> 1. LeBron is NOT the top defender in the league, although he is in the top ten.
> 
> 2. LeBron has never led the league in scoring.
> 
> 3. LeBron does not face double, much less triple teams with anywhere near the frequency that Jordan did. And LeBron has the luxury of not having to deal with handchecks and forearms in the back from his defenders.
> 
> LeBron is greatly respected, but Michael's offense AND defense forced teams to evolve to a degree that was completely unnecessary prior to his arrival.



1. He was voted 2nd in DPOY, held his peers to the lowest Net PER of anyone, and anchored the best defense in the league. What more do you want?

2. Yes he did, last year, and he's come in second twice.

3. Sure he does, all the time.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

My bad, yes, LeBron was the top scorer last year. 

Look, I think LeBron is a freak of nature and a true stud. But having watched basketball, ahem, for a number of years, I've seen the young turks come and go, and every terrific player gets compared to MJ. And the comparison became especially intense when Kobe began to win titles. But no one legitimately believes Kobe is as good as Michael now. And I think very few will be making the claim: "LeBron's better" 5 years from now.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

There's no arguing with these drones.

League is having a helluva campaign to shove James "greatness" down our throats, some of them are available, some not, like mine. I find him the most fraudulent, arrogant, fake "superstar" ever to "grace" the NBA. And that will never change, and I'll be happy when they bust him for HGH, juice or just find out him the next big disappointment.

Also, on this DPOY bull****, check out his rebounding abilities. His offensive rebounds per game..lol.

It's easy to pick up few scrap shots and get rebounds in your stat sheet.

On the other hand, to get a offensive rebound you actually need to go and hustle. Which he doesn't do.

And little boy Wade has more blocks and steals than him. But James is "great defender that rotates a lot but also, doesn't foul because he's worlds most cautious defender"

Yeah!


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

But don't you think missing 65 regular season games and the entire season before that is going to have an impact on a player's ability to play to their full potential? MJ did come back to threepeat and win three more scoring titles beginning his next full season, eh?

And no one is claiming MJ won seven. 



kflo said:


> and all the games in the playoffs. again, they didn't win 7 times.
> 
> which of course is still awesome. but he wasn't invincible. the years you're mostly referencing statistically are the years he didn't win.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Let's make it easier for these immaculate fans that don't tolerate WRONG information.

So - no more wrong informations.

Jordan - 6 times went to the finals, 6 rings, 6 MVP's.

James - 1 time in the finals, no victories so far

There.

Carry on with the statistics. Make sure you give me some mathematical way of proving how Jordans higher ORPG is a result of weak era while James barely 1 offensive RPG is actually result of GOAT rebounder.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

So, DNKO you think that Jordan will be the best basketball player for the rest of forever?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I think that in 10 years from now, there will be another player that will transcend, dominate and elevate the game and the league to yet another level.

In my opinion, MJ was the epiphany of perfect basketball player. Size, build, style, attitude, winning, athleticism, intelligence, leadership, killer instinct, charisma.

Everything in one package.

He'll be the icon of the sport. Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Ruth, Bonds, Williams, or DiMaggio, if Bonds is cheating.

For James to get in there, he'll need to play like this for 10 years, win Finals against leagues best, establish himself as a proven winner.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



> Also, on this DPOY bull****, check out his rebounding abilities. His offensive rebounds per game..lol.
> 
> It's easy to pick up few scrap shots and get rebounds in your stat sheet.
> 
> On the other hand, to get a offensive rebound you actually need to go and hustle. Which he doesn't do.


I dont know how offensive rebounds have anything to do with DPOY...

Anyways, though, lets look at his offensive rebounds a bit. This year LeBron got 4.3% of all possible offensive rebounds while on the court. Thats BETTER than Jordan in two of Jordan's championship years (1992 with 3.5% and 1997 with 4.2%). Overall, Jordan is a better offensive rebounder, but LeBron has been similar to Jordan in this measure the last two years.

As for defensive rebounding, LeBron is one of the best perimeter players in the league. Grabbing 19% of defensive rebounds as a SF is phenomenal. Only a select couple SFs in the league, such as Shawn Marion and Mike Miller, beat that. Jordan was a great rebounder for his position, but he only got 14% of defensive rebounds over the course of his career, which is slightly less than Chris Paul got this year...

The fact is that LeBron is an exceedingly valuable rebounder. According to 82games.com, when he plays as a SF, he gets 9.1 rebounds per 48 minutes. His counterpart on the other team only gets 6.0 rebounds per 48 minutes. So he GREATLY outrebounds the other team's SFs. He plays some minutes at PF too, and when he does that, he gets 10.9 rebounds per 48 minutes. His counterpart at the PF position gets 10.0 rebounds per 48 minutes. This means in the roughly 800 minutes he played at the PF position, he actually slightly outrebounded the other teams' PFs! Thats really impressive IMO! The fact is that LeBron is a very valuable rebounder. This is illustrated by the fact that the Cavs get only 49.7% of rebounds without LeBron on the court, while they get 51% of rebounds with LeBron on the floor.



> And little boy Wade has more blocks and steals than him. But James is "great defender that rotates a lot but also, doesn't foul because he's worlds most cautious defender"


LeBron had a 2.4% block percentage this year. Jordan's BEST year was also 2.4%. His career average was 1.4%. Jordan got more steals than LeBron, but LeBron is still one of the best in the league. Saying that Wade, one of the best players in the league, has more steals and blocks than LeBron as if that proves LeBron sucks is completely ridiculous. Wade has a better blocks and steal % this year than Jordan did during the second three-peat. Is he lame too?

And also, I believe I proved the foul part wrong earlier. When adjusted for pace and minutes played per game, LeBron fouls MORE than Iguodala, another great perimeter defender. The idea that his lack of fouls proves he is a bad defender is patently ridiculous.



> The point is, who's better at age 24? If you want to argue that LeBron can be better, he should be at least as good by age 24, or at least very close. And LeBron is close. But so was AI. So was Vince Carter. So was Anfernee, arguably. You could even make the claim that pre ankle surgery Grant Hill showed signs of Air-ness. At age 24 or whatever. But ultimately, they never came close.


Among those players, the highest PER posted at or before age 24 was Grant Hill with 25.5. LeBron had a PER of 31.7 this year, and has already posted 4 seasons above that 25.5 number. He has clearly shown a level of play far above any of those players, and has also been consistently amazing to a degree that neither of those players ever were.



> Jordan - 6 times went to the finals, 6 rings, 6 MVP's.
> 
> James - 1 time in the finals, no victories so far
> 
> There.


Jordan won his first title at age 27. LeBron is going to be in contention for a title from this year onwards, and he is only 24. He may not win 6 rings, but if he continues at this same level, that is certainly a distinct possibility. 



> For James to get in there, he'll need to play like this for 10 years, win Finals against leagues best, establish himself as a proven winner.


I think he will.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> I'd have to strongly disagree with both points. Michael Jordan, very early on, developed a reputation as the best defender in the league, because of his athleticism, tenacity, and sheer determination. Go back and listen to ANY of his peers talk about Michael's defense. To a man, EVERY player interviewed about Jordan during his prime acknowledged he was the league's best defender.


this is simply a lie. 




michelangelo said:


> Right now, I can name AT LEAST five players in the league who I would pick as a superior defender to LeBron: Battier, Artest, and Kobe come to mind immediately. As does Garnett. LeBron is a top ten defender, not FAR AND AWAY THE BEST, which Michael clearly was.


again, really not true. maybe for a couple of years he was the consensus best perimeter defender. but he was competing with guys like moncrief, cooper, robertson and later pippen and payton.



michelangelo said:


> Also, there are plenty of teams that have won 55, 60 plus games consistently but failed to make any noise, much less win consecutive or even three peat titles. Too many to name there.


very few teams won 60 plus consistently.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> But don't you think missing 65 regular season games and the entire season before that is going to have an impact on a player's ability to play to their full potential? MJ did come back to threepeat and win three more scoring titles beginning his next full season, eh?
> 
> And no one is claiming MJ won seven.


i was pointing out that he LOST seven times.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> I think that in 10 years from now, there will be another player that will transcend, dominate and elevate the game and the league to yet another level.
> 
> In my opinion, MJ was the epiphany of perfect basketball player. Size, build, style, attitude, winning, athleticism, intelligence, leadership, killer instinct, charisma.


size, build, attitude, athleticism, intelligence, leadership, killer instinct - how does lebron rate on those things?

style and charisma are for marketing, not based on their effectiveness as a player.

winning is a product of your play. 





DNKO said:


> Everything in one package.
> 
> He'll be the icon of the sport. Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Ruth, Bonds, Williams, or DiMaggio, if Bonds is cheating.


you listed multiple icons from the same sports. so lebron can join the club.



DNKO said:


> For James to get in there, he'll need to play like this for 10 years, win Finals against leagues best, establish himself as a proven winner.


yes he will have to do that.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> size, build, attitude, athleticism, intelligence, leadership, killer instinct - how does lebron rate on those things?


Size 6'8
Build - bouncer-like, not resembling a basketball forward in any way shape or form
Attitude - douche / falsely humble / attention whore
Athleticism - very gifted
Intelligence - lol...no comments here
Leadership - until you lead your people to a certain goal, I cant evaluate your leadership skills
Killer instinct - none (please don't point me to that Pistons game again, find something new to try to point out as his career playoff highlights)




kflo said:


> you listed multiple icons from the same sports. so lebron can join the club.


For you, maybe. Not for me. Those are legends. James is a legend alright, a legendary marketing ploy. 

There are dozen players I would put on that "third spot" of top 3 basketball players before I would even think of James. At least dozen. Maybe more. Proven winners.

Ringless people with finals debacles have nothing to do on those lists for me.


----------



## JT

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



> He's more of a combination of Magic and Jordan, with a combination of each of their strengths along with his own unique set of weaknesses.


closer to Bird really, but this was the initial impression that sports media outlets stated, so here it remains circulating years later.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Size 6'8
> Build - bouncer-like, not resembling a basketball forward in any way shape or form


sounds like your still judging bodies based on bodies from the 70s and 80s. lebron does not stand out as a bodybuilder in the nba. he's just another good build.



DNKO said:


> Attitude - douche / falsely humble / attention whore


and jordan was such a great guy?



DNKO said:


> Athleticism - very gifted
> Intelligence - lol...no comments here
> Leadership - until you lead your people to a certain goal, I cant evaluate your leadership skills
> Killer instinct - none (please don't point me to that Pistons game again, find something new to try to point out as his career playoff highlights)
> 
> 
> For you, maybe. Not for me. Those are legends. James is a legend alright, a legendary marketing ploy.
> 
> There are dozen players I would put on that "third spot" of top 3 basketball players before I would even think of James. At least dozen. Maybe more. Proven winners.
> 
> Ringless people with finals debacles have nothing to do on those lists for me.


just curious - what did you think of jordan in 1990, or even during the 1991 playoffs? or what would you have thought if you weren't old enough at the time? 

i wouldn't put lebron in any top 3 spot either. then again, i wouldn't put magic and bird there either. but lebron still has alot more to accomplish.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

So DNKO, LeBron is all marketing? He's not a good player? Not arguably the best in the league? All that he does is just worthless in a basketball sense and is just a ploy to sell? He's not intelligent? He has no killer instinct?

If he wins 60+ for the next ten years and wins multiple championships, what will you think then?

Is there anything that can happen for you to actually give him any form of credit for being a good player?

You have to realize you're being extremely close minded about it all.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Since you are so fond of statistics here are a few:

Moncrief's season highs in steals and blocks: *138 and 39*. Jordan: *259 and 131*, essentially doubling and tripling Moncrief's best numbers. Who was the more tenacious? Jordan. Payton: *231 and 26*. Close in steals, inferior in blocks. Very tenacious, but limited to guarding points and shooting guards. Jordan could guard four different positions, legitimately. I won't even bother to dignify the Alvin Robertson response. 

You also forgot a guy named Joe Dumars, but I'll forgive you.

Go back and review the interviews of players during Michael's prime and listen to their responses about Michael's defense. They will tell you, as do his 9X all NBA first team defense selections, that he was the best, both on offense and defense. These statistics and awards, and interviews are not lies. Your comments simply show you are riding LeBron's jock really hard. I guarantee you'll look foolish five years from now making the same argument (LeBron will pass Jordan). 

There are lots of teams that are and were perennial regular season greats: think pre Duncan San Antonio Spurs for example, or the Brad Daugherty era Cavs, who both consistently won 55 to 60 games, yet they could not win championships. LeBron's Cavs winning lots of regular season games gives them the opportunity to do something in the playoffs, but right now, LeBron has no ring. Will he win at least one? Very strong possibility? Will he win six in a row during his full seasons of play? Extremely unlikely. 

Pippen was a great defender, but at his best, he was never as tenacious, and his numbers never as strong as Jordan's. For example, Pippen's season high in *steals is 232* and his season high in *blocks: 101*, both lower than Jordan's season highs, despite a one or two inch height advantage over his teammate. Also, Jordan noted that Pippen was a great defender when he knew he had help (Jordan). Jordan had *236 steals* and *135 blocks* PRIOR to Pippen's arrival. 



kflo said:


> this is simply a lie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> again, really not true. maybe for a couple of years he was the consensus best perimeter defender. but he was competing with guys like moncrief, cooper, robertson and later pippen and payton.
> 
> 
> 
> very few teams won 60 plus consistently.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Also, as far as LeBron passing Jordan or even Kareem as a scorer, you have to take into account all the miles these young players put on their knees and bodies. Jordan spent three years in college playing three dozen games a season. LeBron's played 100 games a season in that same time. Given this mileage, and given his weight, and his high flying antics, his knees are going to wear down. I guarantee LeBron will NOT be averaging 29 points a game at the age of 34 like Jordan did. Actually, LeBron's not even averaging 29 points a game now, so it's extremely he will average 29 after he's put that much mileage on his joints mid thirties. 

Also, LeBron relies very heavily on his athleticism to score: especially his leaping ability and strength to simply bum rush opponents in the half court or open court. His jumper is ugly and he'll have to rely on that heavily in his late 20 and 30's. Unless he improves significantly, I wouldn't be surprised if he average low twenties or mid twenties by the time he was 33 or 34. 

Jordan's fundamentals meanwhile, were the best in the game. This is according to Jerry West, not me. He was also among a handful of the most athletic players in the game. And his competitiveness was undoubtedly the best.

LeBron is competitive, but he's not that competitive. LeBron is incredibly athletic. He has great court vision, and a great understanding of the game, but no one's fundamentals were as good as Jordan's, unless you want to call Jerry West a liar.

But ultimately, KFLO, I see you get really upset when people disagree with you by presenting facts and have to resort to name calling. But this does not change the facts. LeBron is a great player, but like everyone else compared to Jordan, he will likely fall short. 

Even today, when people use a benchmark, do they refer to LeBron James? No, they still refer to MJ. And they will continue to do so for many years to come. I don't see any young players today as rookies or even first year college players who have anywhere near the potential of Jordan. In large part due to the fact that Michael is one of a kind.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Since you are so fond of statistics here are a few:


steals and blocks really don't tell you a whole lot about defense.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> LeBron is a great player, but like everyone else compared to Jordan, he will likely fall short.


Until he passes Jordan that is. 

That will require him to win a few more MVPs, approach 50% career FG% and score 30,000+ points in 13 seasons but not play in three of his prime seasons and two of his later but still efficient years. Everyone knows that if Jordan played in 93-95, he would have racked up another 5,000 points, 250 steals, 200 blocks, 2 more scoring titles, 2 defensive 1st teams, 2 All NBA first teams, and 2 Finals MVPs. Had he been healthy his second season, he would have scored another 2500 points, 150 steals, 150 blocks and another all defensive 1st and all NBA first selections.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

As far as LeBron's cavs winning a ring this year, it will be tough. They would have a tough time guarding Gasol and Kobe on defense. And they rely very heavily on their perimeter shooting on offense. If that goes south, they're in trouble. 

If they were to face the Rockets, they would be in big trouble. Artest is a great defender and a great scorer. And Yao is a monster, who would pose serious problems for their defense. And the Rockets are a great defensive team, with Artest and Battier especially, and with Yao in the middle. 

So, there is no guarantee that LeBron wins a ring this year. And keep in mind the western conference gets stronger every season. The Phoenix Suns with Shaq, Amare and Nash, couldn't even make the playoffs. The Mavs, with former MVP and near MVP Nowitski and Kidd, barely made it. I find it difficult to believe that LeBron would reel off six straight championships against that caliber of competition. 

And with Orlando emerging as a potential champion, and with the Celtics probably having at least a two year window of opportunity, the Cavs won't find it a cakewalk to win the east, either.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Since you are so fond of statistics here are a few:
> 
> Moncrief's season highs in steals and blocks: *138 and 39*. Jordan: *259 and 131*, essentially doubling and tripling Moncrief's best numbers. Who was the more tenacious? Jordan. Payton: *231 and 26*. Close in steals, inferior in blocks. Very tenacious, but limited to guarding points and shooting guards. Jordan could guard four different positions, legitimately. I won't even bother to dignify the Alvin Robertson response.
> 
> You also forgot a guy named Joe Dumars, but I'll forgive you.
> 
> Go back and review the interviews of players during Michael's prime and listen to their responses about Michael's defense. They will tell you, as do his 9X all NBA first team defense selections, that he was the best, both on offense and defense. These statistics and awards, and interviews are not lies. Your comments simply show you are riding LeBron's jock really hard. I guarantee you'll look foolish five years from now making the same argument (LeBron will pass Jordan).
> 
> There are lots of teams that are and were perennial regular season greats: think pre Duncan San Antonio Spurs for example, or the Brad Daugherty era Cavs, who both consistently won 55 to 60 games, yet they could not win championships. LeBron's Cavs winning lots of regular season games gives them the opportunity to do something in the playoffs, but right now, LeBron has no ring. Will he win at least one? Very strong possibility? Will he win six in a row during his full seasons of play? Extremely unlikely.
> 
> Pippen was a great defender, but at his best, he was never as tenacious, and his numbers never as strong as Jordan's. For example, Pippen's season high in *steals is 232* and his season high in *blocks: 101*, both lower than Jordan's season highs, despite a one or two inch height advantage over his teammate. Also, Jordan noted that Pippen was a great defender when he knew he had help (Jordan). Jordan had *236 steals* and *135 blocks* PRIOR to Pippen's arrival.


again, if you're saying jordan was unanimously considered a better defender than the players i mentioned, you're lying. you can show defensive stats up the wazzoo, but it won't make your statement true. fact is, all those guys made all-defense or won or finished higher in dpoty awards over jordan. all were considered great defenders, at jordan level, and frankly all were better defenders than dumars.

and the cavs won 66 games this year. the daugherty cavs won 54+ games 3 times in 5 years, wining no more than 57 games.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

and i haven't called you a name.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Sidney Moncrief was a better defender then Jordan. Him and Alvin Robertson were the two best perimeter defenders I've ever seen in terms of man on man defense.

Plus if you're resorting to steals/blocks to show a player is a better defender the argument is over. Particularly steals don't correlate with good defense at all


----------



## Diable

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Jordan never gambled excessively to get his steals.It's funny that you mention Robertson and Moncrief,both of those guys got tons of steals.Robertson in particular holds the single season record and was always among the league leaders.I saw all of them play and I wouldn't say that either of those guys was on a completely different level from Jordan.Jordan did coast more on D,but then he was doing more on the other end than those guys.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> steals and blocks really don't tell you a whole lot about defense.


Dayumn.
:whiteflag:


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Dayumn.
> :whiteflag:


Do you mean to imply they do?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Naw, they don't. I just realized if I make steals and block shots...I won't get and defensive credits...here, anyway.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Naw, they don't. I just realized if I make steals and block shots...I won't get and defensive credits...here, anyway.


I'm not sure if you're being partly sarcastic are you not. Do you think that steals and blocks tell you a lot about defense?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

No, those are offensive weapons.

If we play basketball, and I steal 3 possessions from you and block 3 of your shots, basically taking away potential 12 points from you by myself, it's doesn't show any of my defensive skills.

It's a brand new day.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> No, those are offensive weapons.
> 
> If we play basketball, and I steal 3 possessions from you and block 3 of your shots, basically taking away potential 12 points from you by myself, it's doesn't show any of my defensive skills.
> 
> It's a brand new day.


You're like a dying neutron star that has collapsed and 69'ed itself.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Cap said:


> You're like a dying neutron star that has collapsed and 69'ed itself.



69'd? Or 86'd?

Hm.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



> No, those are offensive weapons.
> 
> If we play basketball, and I steal 3 possessions from you and block 3 of your shots, basically taking away potential 12 points from you by myself, it's doesn't show any of my defensive skills.
> 
> It's a brand new day.


Bruce Bowen is a better defender than Allen Iverson. Allen Iverson gets way more steals. Steals make a big impact defensively, but they are not NEARLY everything. Moncrief and Cooper were better man defenders than Jordan. Jordan got more steals and blocks than they did. It is debateable who had the greater overall impact on the defensive end.


___________________

If the Cavs coast through the Eastern Conference as they currently are and as expected, and then win in the finals (presumably against the Lakers, a legitimately extremely strong team) with LeBron getting finals MVP, then *I will make the claim that LeBron's 2009 season will be better than any season put forth by Michael Jordan. *

LeBron posted a 31.67 PER this year, winning MVP. He was all-defensive first team and 2nd in DPOY voting. His team won 66 games with the second-best player being just a borderline all-star level player. If his team continues to coast through the Eastern Conference, then they will have also posted a dominant playoff record. If they beat the Lakers in the finals, they will be the first team to beat a 65+ win team in the NBA finals, and have beaten a VERY worthy opponent. Presuming LeBron continues his current playoff dominance, he will post an extremely high PER in the playoffs too, as he currently has, by far, the highest PER for a year in the playoffs ever.

No year by Jordan matches this. Lets go through his seasons.
1985: Jordan's rookie season is obviously not up to par with LeBron's current season, though it was good.
1986: He only played 16 games.
1987: Though he scored 37 points a game, Jordan's season actually had a lower PER than LeBron's. His team only won 40 games, and lost in the first round of the playoffs.
1988: This is the only year that Jordan posted a higher PER than LeBron (by a miniscule 0.04) and he won DPOY. However, his team only won 50 games, and went out in the second round of the playoffs, with Jordan's PER going down in the playoffs.
1989: This was a great year by Jordan. However, there is no reason to put it above LeBron's. His regular season PER was slightly lower. He was all-defensive first team, but only a distant 5th in DPOY voting. His team won only 47 games and lost in the eastern conference finals, with Jordan's PER going down in the playoffs (though still high). 
1990: Another good year that is still lesser than LeBrons if the Cavs win the championship. His PER is slightly lower. He was a distant 5th in DPOY voting again. His team won 55 games, and lost in the conference finals
1991: This is probably the closest year to LeBrons. LeBron's PER is minisculely higher. Jordan was all defensive first team and tied for 7th in DPOY voting. His team won 61 games and cruised easily to the title with Jordan winning Finals MVP after posting a huge 32.00 PER in the playoffs. However, LeBron's season would still end up better. PER is not everything, of course, but his PER was SLIGHTLY higher. He was 2nd in DPOY voting, not 7th. His team won 66 games instead of 61. So far he is running a 41.7 PER in the playoffs instead of 32, while cruising through just like the Bulls. His season is marginally better so far and will stay as such as long as LeBron continues dominating in the playoffs and the Cavs keep cruising.
1992: Jordan's PER was only 27.7 this year, and only 27.2 in the playoffs. The Bulls had a great season but they did NOT cruise through the playoffs. Again, if the Cavs cruise through the eastern conference en route to winning the title, there would be no reason to put Jordan's 1992 season above LeBron's 2009.
1993: Jordan's team underachieved to only 57 wins this year. While they did win the championship, and Jordan played very well in the regular season and playoffs, while also being 2nd in DPOY voting, there is again nothing to put this season by Jordan ahead as LeBron boasts a higher PER and a 66 win team.
1995: Jordan only played 17 games and lost in the conference finals.
1996: Jordan had a 29.4 PER, was tied for 6th in DPOY voting, and his team won 72 games. However, Jordan only boasted a 26.7 PER in the playoffs; he actually did not play that well in the finals, despite the fact that he got Finals MVP. Although Jordan's team won 6 more games, everything else would point towards LeBron's season, especially playoff performance if he continues along his current path.
1997: Jordan's team won 69 games. However, his PER was again much lower than LeBrons, and his playoff performance was mortal (still amazing by other player's standards, but 27 is not high by the standards we are talking about here). He was just 5th in DPOY voting. Again, the 3 extra wins do not make up for the fact that LeBron's 2009 season is just otherwise better than Jordan's 1997 season.
1998: Only a 25.2 PER. Team won 62 games. He was 4th in DPOY voting. Team did NOT cruise through the playoffs. Great season by MJ, with a great ending (I lived in Chicago at the time and the end of the 1998 Finals is still the most vivid and fond memory of watching basketball that I have ever had). However, not on the same level as LeBron's season this year if the Cavs take care of business. 
2002 and 2003: Obviously not a factor here. 


Jordan has had seasons with as high a PER as LeBron this year. He has had seasons with similar or better defensive accolades. He has had seasons winning 66 games or more. He has had seasons where he played dominantely in the playoffs while his team cruised to the title. However, he never combined all those into one year as LeBron will if his team takes care of business. Therefore, playoffs pending, LeBron's 2009 season could end up better than any single Jordan season. If this is the case, then LeBron will have to start being considered alongside Jordan, no?


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> Bruce Bowen is a better defender than Allen Iverson. Allen Iverson gets way more steals. Steals make a big impact defensively, but they are not NEARLY everything. Moncrief and Cooper were better man defenders than Jordan. Jordan got more steals and blocks than they did. It is debateable who had the greater overall impact on the defensive end.
> 
> 
> ___________________
> 
> If the Cavs coast through the Eastern Conference as they currently are and as expected, and then win in the finals (presumably against the Lakers, a legitimately extremely strong team) with LeBron getting finals MVP, then *I will make the claim that LeBron's 2009 season will be better than any season put forth by Michael Jordan. *
> 
> LeBron posted a 31.67 PER this year, winning MVP. He was all-defensive first team and 2nd in DPOY voting. His team won 66 games with the second-best player being just a borderline all-star level player. If his team continues to coast through the Eastern Conference, then they will have also posted a dominant playoff record. If they beat the Lakers in the finals, they will be the first team to beat a 65+ win team in the NBA finals, and have beaten a VERY worthy opponent. Presuming LeBron continues his current playoff dominance, he will post an extremely high PER in the playoffs too, as he currently has, by far, the highest PER for a year in the playoffs ever.
> 
> No year by Jordan matches this. Lets go through his seasons.
> 1985: Jordan's rookie season is obviously not up to par with LeBron's current season, though it was good.
> 1986: He only played 16 games.
> 1987: Though he scored 37 points a game, Jordan's season actually had a lower PER than LeBron's. His team only won 40 games, and lost in the first round of the playoffs.
> 1988: This is the only year that Jordan posted a higher PER than LeBron (by a miniscule 0.04) and he won DPOY. However, his team only won 50 games, and went out in the second round of the playoffs, with Jordan's PER going down in the playoffs.
> 1989: This was a great year by Jordan. However, there is no reason to put it above LeBron's. His regular season PER was slightly lower. He was all-defensive first team, but only a distant 5th in DPOY voting. His team won only 47 games and lost in the eastern conference finals, with Jordan's PER going down in the playoffs (though still high).
> 1990: Another good year that is still lesser than LeBrons if the Cavs win the championship. His PER is slightly lower. He was a distant 5th in DPOY voting again. His team won 55 games, and lost in the conference finals
> 1991: This is probably the closest year to LeBrons. LeBron's PER is minisculely higher. Jordan was all defensive first team and tied for 7th in DPOY voting. His team won 61 games and cruised easily to the title with Jordan winning Finals MVP after posting a huge 32.00 PER in the playoffs. However, LeBron's season would still end up better. PER is not everything, of course, but his PER was SLIGHTLY higher. He was 2nd in DPOY voting, not 7th. His team won 66 games instead of 61. So far he is running a 41.7 PER in the playoffs instead of 32, while cruising through just like the Bulls. His season is marginally better so far and will stay as such as long as LeBron continues dominating in the playoffs and the Cavs keep cruising.
> 1992: Jordan's PER was only 27.7 this year, and only 27.2 in the playoffs. The Bulls had a great season but they did NOT cruise through the playoffs. Again, if the Cavs cruise through the eastern conference en route to winning the title, there would be no reason to put Jordan's 1992 season above LeBron's 2009.
> 1993: Jordan's team underachieved to only 57 wins this year. While they did win the championship, and Jordan played very well in the regular season and playoffs, while also being 2nd in DPOY voting, there is again nothing to put this season by Jordan ahead as LeBron boasts a higher PER and a 66 win team.
> 1995: Jordan only played 17 games and lost in the conference finals.
> 1996: Jordan had a 29.4 PER, was tied for 6th in DPOY voting, and his team won 72 games. However, Jordan only boasted a 26.7 PER in the playoffs; he actually did not play that well in the finals, despite the fact that he got Finals MVP. Although Jordan's team won 6 more games, everything else would point towards LeBron's season, especially playoff performance if he continues along his current path.
> 1997: Jordan's team won 69 games. However, his PER was again much lower than LeBrons, and his playoff performance was mortal (still amazing by other player's standards, but 27 is not high by the standards we are talking about here). He was just 5th in DPOY voting. Again, the 3 extra wins do not make up for the fact that LeBron's 2009 season is just otherwise better than Jordan's 1997 season.
> 1998: Only a 25.2 PER. Team won 62 games. He was 4th in DPOY voting. Team did NOT cruise through the playoffs. Great season by MJ, with a great ending (I lived in Chicago at the time and the end of the 1998 Finals is still the most vivid and fond memory of watching basketball that I have ever had). However, not on the same level as LeBron's season this year if the Cavs take care of business.
> 2002 and 2003: Obviously not a factor here.
> 
> 
> Jordan has had seasons with as high a PER as LeBron this year. He has had seasons with similar or better defensive accolades. He has had seasons winning 66 games or more. He has had seasons where he played dominantely in the playoffs while his team cruised to the title. However, he never combined all those into one year as LeBron will if his team takes care of business. Therefore, playoffs pending, LeBron's 2009 season could end up better than any single Jordan season. If this is the case, then LeBron will have to start being considered alongside Jordan, no?


Good factual post. I agree with you on almost all counts.


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Since you are so fond of statistics here are a few:
> 
> Moncrief's season highs in steals and blocks: *138 and 39*. Jordan: *259 and 131*, essentially doubling and tripling Moncrief's best numbers. Who was the more tenacious? Jordan. Payton: *231 and 26*. Close in steals, inferior in blocks. Very tenacious, but limited to guarding points and shooting guards. Jordan could guard four different positions, legitimately. I won't even bother to dignify the Alvin Robertson response.
> 
> You also forgot a guy named Joe Dumars, but I'll forgive you.
> 
> Go back and review the interviews of players during Michael's prime and listen to their responses about Michael's defense. They will tell you, as do his 9X all NBA first team defense selections, that he was the best, both on offense and defense. These statistics and awards, and interviews are not lies. Your comments simply show you are riding LeBron's jock really hard. I guarantee you'll look foolish five years from now making the same argument (LeBron will pass Jordan).
> 
> There are lots of teams that are and were perennial regular season greats: think pre Duncan San Antonio Spurs for example, or the Brad Daugherty era Cavs, who both consistently won 55 to 60 games, yet they could not win championships. LeBron's Cavs winning lots of regular season games gives them the opportunity to do something in the playoffs, but right now, LeBron has no ring. Will he win at least one? Very strong possibility? Will he win six in a row during his full seasons of play? Extremely unlikely.
> 
> Pippen was a great defender, but at his best, he was never as tenacious, and his numbers never as strong as Jordan's. For example, Pippen's season high in *steals is 232* and his season high in *blocks: 101*, both lower than Jordan's season highs, despite a one or two inch height advantage over his teammate. Also, Jordan noted that Pippen was a great defender when he knew he had help (Jordan). Jordan had *236 steals* and *135 blocks* PRIOR to Pippen's arrival.


Pippen was a better defender than Jordan and was pretty much assigned the top offensive player on the opposing team ever since he joined the Bulls. Steals numbers don't tell that much. Pippen didn't gamble as much as Jordan to jump in front of passes for steals because he could shut guys down by fronting them. Iverson was perennially near the top in steals every season of his career. Was he a great defender? Hell no! Same goes for blocks. You can have inflated block counts easily by playing ak47 style defense. Blocks and steals as key parameters for defensive excellence shows a lack of basketball knowledge. Shane Battier a barely one block and one steal a game this year but he is easily one of the top perimeter defenders this year, if not the top perimeter defender. The fact that other players have higher steal totals or block totals than Battier do not make them better defenders.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



KennethTo said:


> Pippen was a better defender than Jordan and was pretty much assigned the top offensive player on the opposing team ever since he joined the Bulls. Steals numbers don't tell that much. Pippen didn't gamble as much as Jordan to jump in front of passes for steals because he could shut guys down by fronting them. Iverson was perennially near the top in steals every season of his career. Was he a great defender? Hell no! Same goes for blocks. You can have inflated block counts easily by playing ak47 style defense. Blocks and steals as key parameters for defensive excellence shows a lack of basketball knowledge. Shane Battier a barely one block and one steal a game this year but he is easily one of the top perimeter defenders this year, if not the top perimeter defender. The fact that other players have higher steal totals or block totals than Battier do not make them better defenders.


pippen generally guarded sf's, jordan' sg's. i don't remember them switching assignments often. jordan was the better man defender, pippen the better team defender.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Where's Rodman in the discussion of all time great defenders? Rod could legitimately guard all five positions. Rodman absolutely gave Karl Malone and Shaq fits when he was a Bull. 

And Scottie was a great team defender because Jordan had his back. As did Harper. As did Rodman. He didn't have the confidence to be a dominant defender or player in his own right. Remember, Pippen was basically Jordan's pupil.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: no one will be asking if the 'next great thing' is the next Kobe or next LeBron. They will STILL be asking if he's the next _Michael Jordan_. He won't be, but that's immaterial. The question remains the same.

edit: of course, I don't mean that no player ever will be compared to Kobe or LeBron, of course they will, but those players won't be used as an index or benchmark of "the best" or "the best possible" but mentioned in the context of "among the best" or "nearly the best."


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

pippen came in 4th and 2nd in dpoty in '94 and '95. and the bulls actually improved defensively (statistically at least). 

and you don't know what the question will be. or the answer.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Question: "is he the next Jordan?"

Answer: "no."


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## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

so you're in the noone can ever be better than jordan camp?


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Where's Rodman in the discussion of all time great defenders? Rod could legitimately guard all five positions. Rodman absolutely gave Karl Malone and Shaq fits when he was a Bull.
> 
> And Scottie was a great team defender because Jordan had his back. As did Harper. As did Rodman. He didn't have the confidence to be a dominant defender or player in his own right. Remember, Pippen was basically Jordan's pupil.
> 
> I've said it before, and I'll say it again: no one will be asking if the 'next great thing' is the next Kobe or next LeBron. They will STILL be asking if he's the next _Michael Jordan_. He won't be, but that's immaterial. The question remains the same.
> 
> edit: of course, I don't mean that no player ever will be compared to Kobe or LeBron, of course they will, but those players won't be used as an index or benchmark of "the best" or "the best possible" but mentioned in the context of "among the best" or "nearly the best."


Michael Jordan retired. I suggest Come Fly with Me for recreation.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> so you're in the noone can ever be better than jordan camp?


Apparently Jordan had his back on the baseball diamond in 94.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Theoretically, it could happen. But you're looking at an extremely unlikely combination of traits, even amongst great athletes. Here are some disadvantages the younger players face in becoming "the next Jordan":

1. they don't want to go to college. Jordan had the time or "luxury" to focus on the fundamentals playing just 30 games a season for three years (typically just 2 games a week Thurs and Sat) while spending the rest of the week on the basics. 

2. No one is as competitive as Jordan. No one. 

3. there are players who are as strong or stronger, who leap as high or higher, or who are as fast or faster. But they lack Jordan's incomparable drive and determination. 

You don't find that combination among any player: even the very best. Kobe's a great player, but he's not as driven. He's driven, but not THAT driven. Not to tbe point of obsession. 

LeBron is less competitive than Kobe. And his jump shot makes me cringe. As does his stubborn obsession with the three. LeBron's stats will go into free fall as early as his early thirties, say 32. All the wear and tear and miles on his knees, from the years of carrying around 245 lbs. a year, which are now a strength, will become a liability. 

These are great players, but they're not the best. Neither player will win 10 scoring titles. Neither will win six rings and six finals mvp's. But that doesn't mean they're not great players. They are. They're just not the best.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> Jordan has had seasons with as high a PER as LeBron this year. He has had seasons with similar or better defensive accolades. He has had seasons winning 66 games or more. He has had seasons where he played dominantely in the playoffs while his team cruised to the title. However, he never combined all those into one year as LeBron will if his team takes care of business. Therefore, playoffs pending, LeBron's 2009 season could end up better than any single Jordan season. If this is the case, then LeBron will have to start being considered alongside Jordan, no?


I'm not going to quote the whole post because it's probably one of the dumbest breakdowns of a person's career I've ever read. This is like if Tim Legler and Jemele Hill had a child, taught that hideous abomination how to use the internet type of post. 

Clearly one season makes a player comparable with an entire career of greatness. On top of that you hold it against Jordan that he didn't have to do all the hard work on offense and defense in the second 3 peat and then hold it against Jordan that he didn't have a good team at the beginning of his career. That second 3peat team was the most dominant team since the Celtics dynasty. Rodman AVERAGED 18rpg in '96. That's double that of Big Z. If Jordan had teammates that retarded at grabbing a rebound he'd have 8-10rpg a game too. 

The difference between now and then is that hand-checking isn't allowed, traveling is, and players don't have any fundamentals anymore.

In summation, your argument is invalid and skewed at best. Jordan= GOAT, LeBron= MVPx1season


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Cap said:


> Michael Jordan retired. I suggest Come Fly with Me for recreation.


link doesn't work


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Poo said:


> I'm not going to quote the whole post because it's probably one of the dumbest breakdowns of a person's career I've ever read. This is like if Tim Legler and Jemele Hill had a child, taught that hideous abomination how to use the internet type of post.
> 
> Clearly one season makes a player comparable with an entire career of greatness. On top of that you hold it against Jordan that he didn't have to do all the hard work on offense and defense in the second 3 peat and then hold it against Jordan that he didn't have a good team at the beginning of his career. That second 3peat team was the most dominant team since the Celtics dynasty. Rodman AVERAGED 18rpg in '96. That's 3x more than Big Z. If Jordan had teammates that retarded at grabbing a rebound he'd have 8-10rpg a game too.
> 
> The difference between now and then is that hand-checking isn't allowed, traveling is, and players don't have any fundamentals anymore.
> 
> In summation, your argument is invalid and skewed at best. Jordan= GOAT, LeBron= MVPx1season


fwiw, jordan's rebound rate was higher in '96 than in any year since 1990.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

i really don't know how people think they have such an incredible understanding of jordan's competitiveness, drive and determination and how it ranks relative to other players. or that you need to be more competitive and determined to be better.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Poo said:


> link doesn't work


http://www.amazon.com/Michael-Jordan-Come-Fly-VHS/dp/6305337977


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

One more point to consider. LeBron's Cavs have always played in a relatively weak Eastern Conference.

Meanwhile, Jordan's Bulls played in a ferociously competitive Eastern Conference. Michael Jordan was routinely mugged, to use a polite term, by Ewing's Knicks and the Piston's Bad Boys annually. And the Pistons were two time defending champs prior to Jordan's 8 year reign of terror.

A second point to consider: what happened to all those Drexler/Jordan comparisons? It's laughable now, and wasn't very plausible even then.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

You don't need an "incredible understanding." His teammates couldn't go a day without Michael trying to outcompete them at EVERYTHING. Ping Pong. A sprint after practice. A card game. Buzz Peterson claims that Jordan wouldn't speak to his family after Peterson's mom beat Jordan at a game of "Go Fish!" Obviously, this got him into trouble with gambling and shady characters. When Magic was on The Dream Team, he reported getting sick of Jordan bragging endlessly about his championships or his inability to stop competing against his teammates at cards. 

I don't know what Kobe does in his offtime but...he's probably a bit more mellow in the competition aspect. 



kflo said:


> i really don't know how people think they have such an incredible understanding of jordan's competitiveness, drive and determination and how it ranks relative to other players. or that you need to be more competitive and determined to be better.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> You don't need an "incredible understanding." His teammates couldn't go a day without Michael trying to outcompete them at EVERYTHING. Ping Pong. A sprint after practice. A card game. Buzz Peterson claims that Jordan wouldn't speak to his family after Peterson's mom beat Jordan at a game of "Go Fish!" Obviously, this got him into trouble with gambling and shady characters. When Magic was on The Dream Team, he reported getting sick of Jordan bragging endlessly about his championships or his inability to stop competing against his teammates at cards.
> 
> I don't know what Kobe does in his offtime but...he's probably a bit more mellow in the competition aspect. Well


Jordan never raped anyone after failing to win a title. Kobe has. End of story. 

Ping pong. :laugh:


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Don't hate. Kobe was acquitted.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

That's a good point. From now on, I will only consider players who are _less_ competitve and _less_ determined with _inferior_ numbers and _no_ championships to be the best players! What an insight!




kflo said:


> or that you need to be more competitive and determined to be better.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> One more point to consider. LeBron's Cavs have always played in a relatively weak Eastern Conference.
> 
> Meanwhile, Jordan's Bulls played in a ferociously competitive Eastern Conference. Michael Jordan was routinely mugged, to use a polite term, by Ewing's Knicks and the Piston's Bad Boys annually. And the Pistons were two time defending champs prior to Jordan's 8 year reign of terror.
> 
> A second point to consider: what happened to all those Drexler/Jordan comparisons? It's laughable now, and wasn't very plausible even then.


Actually for the second three-peat the Eastern Conference and really the NBA on the whole was quite weak. Remember after Jordan retired teams like the Nets and Pacers were able to come out through the East. I remember articles at the time talking about how much better the Bulls were than the rest of the league. Remember that the NBA had gone through a lot of expansion in a relatively short time around them, and the international players hadn't yet begun to come in and fill those gaps. So the overall talent level was much less than what it is today. I think today we are back in an NBA golden age. And a healthy Boston Celtics and the Pistons from Lebron's first Finals run, were as much trouble as the Knicks and Pistons, especially given the talent level on Lebron's own teams at the time. This year things are skewed out East because of KG's injury. But to win the title the Cavs are still going to have to beat a really good team in the Finals.

And it's only going to get tougher as the years go by. The league is getting stronger and stronger in terms of talent.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Lot of expansion teams aka 2.

Huge amount.

Also, those Raptors were nothing compared to todays beast teams like

Oklahoma, Sacramento, Clippers, Washington...

all POWERHOUSES, Nets and Pacers of the mid-late 90s really BAD teams, especially PACERS. 

LMFAO

Golden age - right - 2 decent centers in the whole wide league and you talk about league getting stronger where there's aint more than 5 franchise players around.


God *DAMN* you people are oblivious.


And yeah, it's clear, Cavs record this year is a result of pure awesome x amazing, while Bulls 72 and 69 seasons were "weak sauce league"


Don't talk about something you don't know about. Stick to current times. Thanks.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> That's a good point. From now on, I will only consider players who are _less_ competitve and _less_ determined with _inferior_ numbers and _no_ championships to be the best players! What an insight!


how bout this - we simply give all players a competitiveness test, and the guy who scores highest is the best player!


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Poo said:


> I'm not going to quote the whole post because it's probably one of the dumbest breakdowns of a person's career I've ever read. This is like if Tim Legler and Jemele Hill had a child, taught that hideous abomination how to use the internet type of post.
> 
> Clearly one season makes a player comparable with an entire career of greatness. On top of that you hold it against Jordan that he didn't have to do all the hard work on offense and defense in the second 3 peat and then hold it against Jordan that he didn't have a good team at the beginning of his career. That second 3peat team was the most dominant team since the Celtics dynasty. Rodman AVERAGED 18rpg in '96. That's double that of Big Z. If Jordan had teammates that retarded at grabbing a rebound he'd have 8-10rpg a game too.
> 
> The difference between now and then is that hand-checking isn't allowed, traveling is, and players don't have any fundamentals anymore.
> 
> In summation, your argument is invalid and skewed at best. Jordan= GOAT, LeBron= MVPx1season



I never said one season would make LeBron comparable to Jordan's entire career. My point, though, was that if things go a certan way in the playoffs, i'd consider LeBron's 2009 season to be better than any of Jordan's years overall. With that said, in my mind, LeBron's absolute peak would already be ever so slightly higher than Jordan's. That does not mean LeBron will be considered better than Jordan already by me. He won't. I value longevity a lot when ranking players. However, we would start having to compare the two legitimately if LeBron starts putting up better years than Jordan.

Also, LeBron does not realistically have a really good team around him. When he is off the court, his team gives up 5.9 points more per possession than they score. The Raptors without Bosh and the TWolves without Al Jefferson do better than the Cavs without LeBron on the court. In fact, when you look at every nba player's on/off court stats, only 18 players in the league have teams that are worse without them than the Cavs are without LeBron. Put another way, using the pythagorean formula provided at 82games.com to estimate how many wins a team would have, the Cavs without LeBron play at a level that would get them an estimated 26 wins. The Bulls teams in the 2nd three-peat WITHOUT Jordan, would probably have won about twice that, maybe even more.

Anyways, I didnt hold it against Jordan that he didnt "do all the hard work." I held it against him that he was a lesser player than before in 1997 and 1998. He was still great, but earlier Jordan and 2009 LeBron are on a different level.

Anyways, you neglect to mention that while Rodman was an incredible rebounder, Longley and Wennington were very weak rebounders. The Bulls were still a strong rebounding team, but to act as though the Bulls were SUCH a good rebounding team that Jordan's numbers were significantly depressed is just ridiculous. It's also ridiculous when you take into account the fact that Z, Wallace, and Varejao are actually all very good rebounders (all with 15%+ rebounding percentages).


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> I never said one season would make LeBron comparable to Jordan's entire career. My point, though, was that if things go a certan way in the playoffs, i'd consider LeBron's 2009 season to be better than any of Jordan's years overall. With that said, in my mind, LeBron's absolute peak would already be ever so slightly higher than Jordan's. That does not mean LeBron will be considered better than Jordan already by me. He won't. I value longevity a lot when ranking players. However, we would start having to compare the two legitimately if LeBron starts putting up better years than Jordan.
> 
> Also, LeBron does not realistically have a really good team around him. When he is off the court, his team gives up 5.9 points more per possession than they score. The Raptors without Bosh and the TWolves without Al Jefferson do better than the Cavs without LeBron on the court. In fact, when you look at every nba player's on/off court stats, only 18 players in the league have teams that are worse without them than the Cavs are without LeBron. Put another way, using the pythagorean formula provided at 82games.com to estimate how many wins a team would have, the Cavs without LeBron play at a level that would get them an estimated 26 wins. The Bulls teams in the 2nd three-peat WITHOUT Jordan, would probably have won about twice that, maybe even more.
> 
> Anyways, I didnt hold it against Jordan that he didnt "do all the hard work." I held it against him that he was a lesser player than before in 1997 and 1998. He was still great, but earlier Jordan and 2009 LeBron are on a different level.
> 
> Anyways, you neglect to mention that while Rodman was an incredible rebounder, Longley and Wennington were very weak rebounders. The Bulls were still a strong rebounding team, but to act as though the Bulls were SUCH a good rebounding team that Jordan's numbers were significantly depressed is just ridiculous. It's also ridiculous when you take into account the fact that Z, Wallace, and Varejao are actually all very good rebounders (all with 15%+ rebounding percentages).


*Dude you focus way to much on stats*, When you do that you lose common sense, *For example* to sit there and say LeBron doesn't have good teammats is a travesty. The Cavs starting 5 is solid, you have two all stars, and one of which is a top 5 player in the league, a great wing defender in West who can straight knock down the jumper, and is tough as nails, Z and Anderson Varejao, are a perfect combination as they both give you two very different things in the post. Also people fail to realize all the Cavs bench players or the majority of the ones that get playing time, have all had significant roles as starters in the league.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Lebron has good teammates just not as good as a typical title team and hell the Cavs haven't even won a title yet! The team is more like Hakeem's Rockets where the sum was greater then there parts. San Antonio of recent years is what I would consider a typical title winning team: 3 players in Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili who would be stars if they were put into any other team. The Cavs best guys outside of Lebron like Mo and Z would be good players but not guys who would be up for consideration for All-star berth (see Mo last year in Milwaukee, hell Delonte was the third string for Seattle) in other years.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Pioneer10 said:


> *Lebron has good teammates just not as good as a typical title team *and hell the Cavs haven't even won a title yet! The team is more like Hakeem's Rockets where the sum was greater then there parts. San Antonio of recent years is what I would consider a typical title winning team: 3 players in Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili who would be stars if they were put into any other team. The Cavs best guys outside of Lebron like Mo and Z would be good players but not guys who would be up for consideration for All-star berth (see Mo last year in Milwaukee, hell Delonte was the third string for Seattle) in other years.


I guess we simply disagree. The part I bolded in your statement, comes across to me as a back handed compliment. Listen I agree with you that there has been a lot of championship teams who had a cast of stars playing for them. I give you some credit there, however there has been teams that made their own stars for example the first 3 peat Bulls team comes to mind, Pippen and Grant were not all stars out the gate, early on in their NBA careers. However that team made their own names, strides and eventually marks in the NBA. The same thing is going on here with the Cavs, they have the talent but not the recognition in the mainstream yet, or as sad as it is to say IMO by the LeBron fanatics. If they win the title and more than one, they will get their due nationally, and hopefully from the LeBron supporters as well.

Up above said, I believe for the time being, LeBrons teammates will always get the short end of the stick. Probably one of the detriments playing along side LBJ is you will never get your due, unless you win championships.

As for the Rockets team the year they won the title, they had only one all star in Hakeem, they had a record of 58-24, and a much more difficult road to the championship, than that the Cavs have had this post season. If the Cavs win the Eastern Conference finals this season, they should almost deserve an asterisk next to their name. Since every team they've played either quit, or had many key starters out due to injury, and when the Cavs go onto the ECF's the two teams Magic/Celtics are all missing their best players, and key contributors. 

Also I guess, you underestimate the work, and ability that guy's like West, Mo, Andy, and etc on the Cavs to improve them selves. You hold those players to their old numbers, and roles on past teams. Yet you LBJ fans speak loudly of LeBron James improvement and game now, I would suggest you do the same for LBJ other teammates too. I believe that is a very fair point to bring up.

This Cavs team bench is leaps and bounds better than the Rockets bench. One of the most slept on thing about the Cavs, but has recently been discussed on national broadcasts during the playoffs, is that Boobie, Wally, Big Ben, Pavlovic, and Joe Smith have all been starters in this league. Now I'm not trying to make a compelling argument there, that these guy's are starters on the bench at this point in their careers, because as I pointed out up above how players can improve, I realize some players can decline, or because of age are no longer at their peak. 

That said those 5 guy's experience alone coming off the bench is a huge weapon. As a lot of guy's with no experience in important games are down right terrible, from stage freight/nerves to the inexperience and lack of respect from NBA officals, they have a lot going against them. Plus the vets that come off the Cavs bench know their roles, and know the game of basketball as well as anyone. The Cavs picking the Beast back up this year was a nice signing and one that I knew would help them.

It seems like me, a guy that is looking from the outside in on the Cavs, can see a great team built around LBJ. IMO after this season the Cavs will continue to try and cut dead weight and bring in better talent to continue to bolster their team. This is a full throttle team with plenty of weapons, the role players know their roles, the Superstar is one of the finest in the game, the next tier guys in Mo and West can sink a team like the titanic out of no where with their clutch 3 point shooting. And Mike Brown, a guy' who's defensive principals, and now offensive structure is working like magic out there on the court. Deserves his Coach Of The Year Award, and all the recognition this team achieves this season. 

Just my two coppers


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> *Dude you focus way to much on stats*, When you do that you lose common sense, *For example* to sit there and say LeBron doesn't have good teammats is a travesty. The Cavs starting 5 is solid, you have two all stars, and one of which is a top 5 player in the league, a great wing defender in West who can straight knock down the jumper, and is tough as nails, Z and Anderson Varejao, are a perfect combination as they both give you two very different things in the post. Also people fail to realize all the Cavs bench players or the majority of the ones that get playing time, have all had significant roles as starters in the league.


Stats are the only objective way to look at things. They go beyond reputation and bias.

Anyways, the fact is the Cavs would totally suck without LeBron. This is borne out by how badly they suck when LeBron was off the court this year. That's fact. As a supporting cast for LeBron, they are solid. Mo Williams is not really a legit 2nd option for a title team as he is a borderline all-star at best. West is a great defender but not anything more than a good role player. Z is solid, but not close to a star. Varejao is just a role player. They make a solid supporting cast that has such great chemistry that they have transformed into a great supporting cast. 

But we were comparing Jordan to LeBron, and my point was mainly that Jordan's teams minus Jordan were WAY better than LeBron's team minus LeBron. The Bulls won 55 games in 1994 without Jordan. They lost Horace Grant after that year and were still a playoff level team when Jordan returned at the end of 1995. They then got Dennis Rodman. I would say that the 1996 Bulls without Jordan would be very similar to the 1994 Bulls. The addition of Rodman would make that team a 50+ win team. You may think that Z and Varejao are "a perfect combination" but do you really think that the Cavs could win 50+ games without LeBron? No. They'd nab 30 games, at best. So you were arguing that the late 90s Bulls were so dominant, and my point is that even in 1996, Jordan won 6 more games than LeBron won this year with a FAR superior supporting cast. Honestly, Jordan played with similar talent as LeBron in 89 and 90 and didnt win a championship or even sniff 60 games.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I guess we simply disagree. The part I bolded in your statement, comes across to me as a back handed compliment. Listen I agree with you that there has been a lot of championship teams who had a cast of stars playing for them. I give you some credit there, however there has been teams that made their own stars for example the first 3 peat Bulls team comes to mind, Pippen and Grant were not all stars out the gate, early on in their NBA careers. However that team made their own names, strides and eventually marks in the NBA. The same thing is going on here with the Cavs, they have the talent but not the recognition in the mainstream yet, or as sad as it is to say IMO by the LeBron fanatics. If they win the title and more than one, they will get their due nationally, and hopefully from the LeBron supporters as well.
> 
> Up above said, I believe for the time being, LeBrons teammates will always get the short end of the stick. Probably one of the detriments playing along side LBJ is you will never get your due, unless you win championships.
> 
> As for the Rockets team the year they won the title, they had only one all star in Hakeem, they had a record of 58-24, and a much more difficult road to the championship, than that the Cavs have had this post season. If the Cavs win the Eastern Conference finals this season, they should almost deserve an asterisk next to their name. Since every team they've played either quit, or had many key starters out due to injury, and when the Cavs go onto the ECF's the two teams Magic/Celtics are all missing their best players, and key contributors.
> 
> Also I guess, you underestimate the work, and ability that guy's like West, Mo, Andy, and etc on the Cavs to improve them selves. You hold those players to their old numbers, and roles on past teams. Yet you LBJ fans speak loudly of LeBron James improvement and game now, I would suggest you do the same for LBJ other teammates too. I believe that is a very fair point to bring up.
> 
> This Cavs team bench is leaps and bounds better than the Rockets bench. One of the most slept on thing about the Cavs, but has recently been discussed on national broadcasts during the playoffs, is that Boobie, Wally, Big Ben, Pavlovic, and Joe Smith have all been starters in this league. Now I'm not trying to make a compelling argument there, that these guy's are starters on the bench at this point in their careers, because as I pointed out up above how players can improve, I realize some players can decline, or because of age are no longer at their peak.
> 
> That said those 5 guy's experience alone coming off the bench is a huge weapon. As a lot of guy's with no experience in important games are down right terrible, from stage freight/nerves to the inexperience and lack of respect from NBA officals, they have a lot going against them. Plus the vets that come off the Cavs bench know their roles, and know the game of basketball as well as anyone. The Cavs picking the Beast back up this year was a nice signing and one that I knew would help them.
> 
> It seems like me, a guy that is looking from the outside in on the Cavs, can see a great team built around LBJ. IMO after this season the Cavs will continue to try and cut dead weight and bring in better talent to continue to bolster their team. This is a full throttle team with plenty of weapons, the role players know their roles, the Superstar is one of the finest in the game, the next tier guys in Mo and West can sink a team like the titanic out of no where with their clutch 3 point shooting. And Mike Brown, a guy' who's defensive principals, and now offensive structure is working like magic out there on the court. Deserves his Coach Of The Year Award, and all the recognition this team achieves this season.
> 
> Just my two coppers


You don't quit. An asterisk? Really?

Also, don't you realize that you come off like you're doing the opposite of what you're complaining about? You say that people don't give their team their due (when people have said he has a good team around him, they just said his second best player is a borderline all-star), but you seem to give them as much as you can to discredit LeBron. I remember earlier this year you said Delonte was a top 5 shooting guard this year. Considering every one of your comments regarding LeBron is negative, do you not think it comes off like you're doing what you can to detract from what he's doing?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> Stats are the only objective way to look at things. They go beyond reputation and bias.
> 
> Anyways, the fact is the Cavs would totally suck without LeBron. This is borne out by how badly they suck when LeBron was off the court this year. That's fact. As a supporting cast for LeBron, they are solid. Mo Williams is not really a legit 2nd option for a title team as he is a borderline all-star at best. West is a great defender but not anything more than a good role player. Z is solid, but not close to a star. Varejao is just a role player. They make a solid supporting cast that has such great chemistry that they have transformed into a great supporting cast.
> 
> But we were comparing Jordan to LeBron, and my point was mainly that Jordan's teams minus Jordan were WAY better than LeBron's team minus LeBron. The Bulls won 55 games in 1994 without Jordan. They lost Horace Grant after that year and were still a playoff level team when Jordan returned at the end of 1995. They then got Dennis Rodman. I would say that the 1996 Bulls without Jordan would be very similar to the 1994 Bulls. The addition of Rodman would make that team a 50+ win team. You may think that Z and Varejao are "a perfect combination" but do you really think that the Cavs could win 50+ games without LeBron? No. They'd nab 30 games, at best. So you were arguing that the late 90s Bulls were so dominant, and my point is that even in 1996, Jordan won 6 more games than LeBron won this year with a FAR superior supporting cast. Honestly, Jordan played with similar talent as LeBron in 89 and 90 and didnt win a championship or even sniff 60 games.


You totally misread my post. i can tell you have an agenda, and are not unbiased at all now, (By The Way I believe Everyone That Posts Here Has Their Own Bias one Way Or Another/ Including Myself) nor the stats you claim to be objective. Every stat can be twisted to work in favor of the argument your presenting, I think that's been well established if not in this thread, than in the All Defensive Team thread already. Maybe you need to step back, and go read that thread from page one to the end.

Secondly, I discussed the first 3 peat Bulls, I never brought up the 2nd 3 peat championship Bulls team. So I'm not going to even address, and respond to that dribble you posted regarding that team. Everyone know's that was an all time great team, with a great roster, that had defined players who were veterans already and well established. 

Also when you decided to cherry pick an earlier team of the Bulls when Mj retired, you just so happened to pick the year/team that was coming off a 3 peat, the chemistry was built by then, the triangle was the big thing, Pippen/Grant etc had made their mark in the game by then, so it's not some shock to anyone that Bulls team won 50 games. They were an experienced well organized championship proven group by then. 

If this same Cavs team was to improve like those Bulls teams did, and win 3 championships in a row for example, and LBJ retired, that team may very well win 50 games or close to it and lose in the semi conference finals just like the Bulls did. You totally under sell the Cavs, by saying they would only win 30 games to bolster LeBron, it's pathetic dude. Secondly, let me give you another example, when the Magic lost their best player in a trade in the 90s (Shaq to the lakers) they still won 45 games. There are more examples, just like this one. 

Also LeBron James didn't miss any games this season but one, the last game of the year. I have no idea what your talking about when you say LeBron missed games this season, and the Cavs roster underperformed. Just more BS coming down the line to Hype LeBron James.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Ras said:


> You don't quit. An asterisk? Really?
> 
> Also, don't you realize that you come off like you're doing the opposite of what you're complaining about? You say that people don't give their team their due (when people have said he has a good team around him, they just said his second best player is a borderline all-star), but you seem to give them as much as you can to discredit LeBron. I remember earlier this year you said Delonte was a top 5 shooting guard this year. Considering every one of your comments regarding LeBron is negative, do you not think it comes off like you're doing what you can to detract from what he's doing?


I'm sorry, but I don't really get this post. If you fail to understand what I mean about the Cavs having it easier possibly than any other playoff team in the history of the NBA, go through the NBA Playoff's thread, people have been discussing this for awhile now. The Pistons team quit, The Hawks are missing 3 of their starters due to injury at this point. ( I picked the Cavs to beat the Hawks in 5 games when healthy) but let's not pretend when a team is missing their best players it's a lot easier to win. That go's for any team. Who ever the Cavs meet in the ECF's, Magic or Celtics, both those teams are missing their Best players, and key contributors. That's where my Asterisk comment came from, it's not about hating, it's a reality that's actually happening. Watch the playoffs my friend, and you can't tell me if the Cavs had to go through the Lakers//Rockets/Nuggets etc in the West their road wouldn't be more difficult. 

I'm not discrediting LeBron at all. When the NBA on ESPN last night, start's the game broadcast by saying Here is the Cleveland Cavs team, that LeBron has carried all season. It's safe to say his teammates are not getting their due. When LBJ is second in DPOTA voting this season for his great defensive play (although I believe their are better defenders in the league) And two years ago his teammates put up great defensive numbers individually and as a team, but get completely slept on. It's a very fair point to be raised by me. 

I don't believe all my comments about LBJ are negative, nor are these posts. Look at the game thread in the playoffs forum, you will see I give LBJ credit when it's due.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

if you're not recognizing what a truly special season lebron had and how it really does, overall, rank right with jordan's best seasons, you are discrediting lebron. 

fact is, the cavs did win 66 games. so even if their road to the finals isn't as tough as some others have had (although the magic have most of their best players), they still have put together a great year (btw, magic's lakers typically had a relatively easy road in the west till they got to the finals). 

jordan always got the lions share of the credit. pippen was part of his "supporting cast". '94 was a shock, as the loss of the goat was certainly expected to have a far bigger impact in the standings than it had. 

lebron's teammates are his supporting cast. they feed off of him. he sets the stage on both ends of the court. he's their dominant player. he does carry them. like jordan carried the bulls. whether ultimately his team has similar success remains to be seen, but his impact is at least in the neighborhood of jordan's with respect to their team.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LeBron was called for ONE foul against Hawks.

5 fouls in 196 playoff minutes.


It's ridiculous how obvious they're trying to push this potatohead to "better than Jordan" for marketing purposes.

I pity the NBA.

Now....cue the "rotation restoration probation" and other coaching terms you guys use AS IF you know a thing about coaching the game.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I guess we simply disagree. The part I bolded in your statement, comes across to me as a back handed compliment. Listen I agree with you that there has been a lot of championship teams who had a cast of stars playing for them. I give you some credit there, however there has been teams that made their own stars for example the first 3 peat Bulls team comes to mind, *Pippen and Grant were not all stars out the gate*, early on in their NBA careers. However that team made their own names, strides and eventually marks in the NBA. The same thing is going on here with the Cavs, they have the talent but not the recognition in the mainstream yet, or as sad as it is to say IMO by the LeBron fanatics. If they win the title and more than one, they will get their due nationally, and hopefully from the LeBron supporters as well.
> 
> Up above said, I believe for the time being, LeBrons teammates will always get the short end of the stick. Probably one of the detriments playing along side LBJ is you will never get your due, unless you win championships.


Pippen was an all-star in 90 in his 3rd year in the league and no one on this current Cavs team is nearly as good as Pippen currently. I'm not even sure how that's possible to credibly argue that. In terms of production, Pippen on offense was putting up Granger like numbers with all-nba defense on top of that. 




> Also I guess, you underestimate the work, and ability that guy's like West, Mo, Andy, and etc on the Cavs to improve them selves. You hold those players to their old numbers, and roles on past teams. Yet you LBJ fans speak loudly of LeBron James improvement and game now, I would suggest you do the same for LBJ other teammates too. I believe that is a very fair point to bring up.


Mo Williams is almost exactly the same player he was in Milwaukee: a guy who could shoot and creaate his own shot off the dribble. Look at his numbers he's 3 point percentage is up (because he gets so much more open looks in Cleveland) but his overall FG% is down and his assists are way down. He's just known in Cleveland because the Cavs are winning.

Andy is a bit better shooting but his rebounding numbers aren't as good. He was injured last year but if you look at his previous years just like Mo very similar prodcution

West is interesting case as he's a guy who I do agree has improved but doesn't show up in his numbers. remember just a year ago this guy couldn't even break into the lineup with Seattle. He has a mood disorder so that affects how well he plays at times and I don't think a lot of organizations have the patience to deal with players with these kind of problems.

After that Wally, Z, Ben, Smith are all old and certainly not improving. Z can't even post up anymore this year
Boobie is young but anyone whose watched teh Cavs knows he's regressed along with Sasha.

I just don't see where the outstanding talent is: there's good talent but I describe this Cavs team as having star roleplayers - there are no guys like Ginobili or Parker on this Cavs team who can carry a team on there own. There's certainly no dominat secondary star like Wade had with Shaq or Pierce/Allen with KG. Remember the Cavs haven't even won a title yet and the main reason I think they may fail is they don't have that second guy who will be able to carry the team if Lebron is off particularly an inside player to match Lebron outside dominance.


----------



## icantaccessmyaccount

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Getting back to the original question, I feel that Lebron has as good a chance to surpass Jordan as anyone. There's always been something missing with the players that have been compared to Jordan. Hill was basically Pippen with less defense. Penny wasn't the prolific scorer that Jordan was and burned out quickly. Kobe doesn't drive or attack the basket like Jordan. Finally a player comes along that can pass, handle, drive, finish, defend, and shoot with the league's elite. He's the perfect specimen. Huge frame, long arms, and incredible athleticism. I've never seen anyone like him. Well, maybe Shawn Kemp but all they have in common is their size and their ability to finish at the rim. Lebron is a combination of Magic and Jordan in Kemp's body. I think he has the best chance of any modern player to break into the top 5 and eventually be regarded as the greatest of all time. My only concern is how he'll look when he's 30. I think he might need to shed some pounds as he gets older because I can't see him carrying 260 on that body for over a dozen years in the league. That's the only thing stopping him.


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> LeBron was called for ONE foul against Hawks.
> 
> 5 fouls in 196 playoff minutes.
> 
> 
> It's ridiculous how obvious they're trying to push this potatohead to "better than Jordan" for marketing purposes.
> 
> I pity the NBA.
> 
> Now....cue the "rotation restoration probation" and other coaching terms you guys use AS IF you know a thing about coaching the game.


LOL, Jordan did the most blatent offensive foul to get his "game-winning" shot against the Jazz. I'd say Jordan got a lot more special treatment.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



KennethTo said:


> LOL, Jordan did the most blatent offensive foul to get his "game-winning" shot against the Jazz. I'd say Jordan got a lot more special treatment.


Yes, but that preferential treatment came after 5 championships, 30,000 points, 5 MVPs, 10 All Star Games, etc....


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> LeBron was called for ONE foul against Hawks.
> 
> 5 fouls in 196 playoff minutes.


How would he commit a foul in any of those games? Neither team knows how to draw a charge, and neither team has been attacking Lebron, and the games have been blowouts.

You want refs to invent fouls against him just to meet a quota?


----------



## Coatesvillain

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Poo said:


> Yes, but that preferential treatment came after 5 championships, 30,000 points, 5 MVPs, 10 All Star Games, etc....


Preferential treatment towards Jordan started a LOT earlier than 1998.


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## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Coatesvillain said:


> Preferential treatment towards Jordan started a LOT earlier than 1998.


It started during the Bulls second 3 peat years.


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## Coatesvillain

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Nah, that preferential treatment was around in the early 90's.


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## HB

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

As for the original statement, I think he can surpass MJ. I am just thinking to myself, other teams to win the title need 2 or 3 all star caliber players, Bron doesn't. This guy does it all, and is a night mare to cover. If he mistakenly teams up with a legit all star, talk less HOF player like Jordan did. Its a wrap! Monopoly on championships on whatever team he is on.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Coatesvillain said:


> Nah, that preferential treatment was around in the early 90's.


I can tell you didn't watch those championship Bulls, MJ was actually the underdog against Magic/Lakers in their 1st championship. Many people felt Drexler was as good or better than MJ in the Bulls 2nd championship run when they faced the Blazers (who were a great defensive team nobody talks about that the Bulls beat) and of course the great Suns team the Bulls beat. I dare you to watch those series, and you will see the physical play, and treatment MJ got from the teams he faced and the ref's it was all earned with integrity. MJ didn't have the red carpet treatment from the NBA and his peers when he entered the NBA like LeBron James has. Mike earned his stripes, LeBron was given the franchise and keys to the NBA from stern the moment he entered the league. Because he is what sells.


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## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I can tell you didn't watch those championship Bulls, MJ was actually the underdog against Magic/Lakers in their 1st championship. Many people felt Drexler was as good or better than MJ in the Bulls 2nd championship run when they faced the Blazers (who were a great defensive team nobody talks about that the Bulls beat) and of course the great Suns team the Bulls beat. I dare you to watch those series, and you will see the physical play, and treatment MJ got from the teams he faced and the ref's it was all earned with integrity. MJ didn't have the red carpet treatment from the NBA and his peers when he entered the NBA like LeBron James has. Mike earned his stripes, LeBron was given the franchise and keys to the NBA from stern the moment he entered the league. Because he is what sells.


Oh. My. God.

NOW i've heard it all.

:wtf:


----------



## Gilgamesh

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

When I first posted in this thread the only point I wanted to make was that it is still too early to compare Lebron to MJ's achievements but this thread has become comical. 

I agree with kflo here. Lebron had a truly special season. I know people do not like PER but the fact is that Lebron had a PER of 31.7 this season which according to basketball-reference.com is the 4th highest PER in NBA history. Plus his team won 66 games. I know some people will even try to discredit that saying the East is weak. Yes when the Bulls won 72 games the East was _that_ much stronger. 

For me truly great players are defined in the playoffs. MJ was king of that but Lebron currently has a 42.2 PER in this year's postseason...that is *incredible*.

I bolded one part of kflo's post that is so true. Jordan had Pippen. Who does Lebron have? Mo Williams? Larry Hughes? Ricky Davis? That 94' team had 3 all-stars minus Jordan. Take Lebron off the Cavs and who really thinks they will win 40 games?

Lebron never had a red carpet. That is BS. Maybe a red carpet in terms of marketing and corporations but not a red carpet from his peers. He was tested when he first came into the NBA. He had way more pressure than MJ coming into the NBA. He was way more scrutinized and yet who here can say that Lebron has not delivered? People act like MJ was a perfect player but I remember all the criticisms against him before he started winning championships and that is what separates MJ from Lebron and even Kobe. Like I said, Lebron passing MJ is all premature until he wins a couple championships and puts together a couple more MVP years. It does not mean no one can discuss Lebron passing MJ but personally I think it is way to early. It's like one poster said no one now really dares to say that Kobe will be greater than MJ anymore (although he still has some years left to build up his achievements) compare to 4-5 years ago. Anyways Lebron has the most potential to surpass MJ especially if he can win a ring this year at 24. 

Actually all the criticisms posters here are getting who dare to say Lebron will pass MJ sounds quite similar to the criticisms people got who dared to say MJ will pass Magic and Bird when he was 24.









kflo said:


> if you're not recognizing what a truly special season lebron had and how it really does, overall, rank right with jordan's best seasons, you are discrediting lebron.
> 
> fact is, the cavs did win 66 games. so even if their road to the finals isn't as tough as some others have had (although the magic have most of their best players), they still have put together a great year (btw, magic's lakers typically had a relatively easy road in the west till they got to the finals).
> 
> *jordan always got the lions share of the credit. pippen was part of his "supporting cast". '94 was a shock, as the loss of the goat was certainly expected to have a far bigger impact in the standings than it had. *
> 
> lebron's teammates are his supporting cast. they feed off of him. he sets the stage on both ends of the court. he's their dominant player. he does carry them. like jordan carried the bulls. whether ultimately his team has similar success remains to be seen, but his impact is at least in the neighborhood of jordan's with respect to their team.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



> You totally misread my post. i can tell you have an agenda, and are not unbiased at all now, (By The Way I believe Everyone That Posts Here Has Their Own Bias one Way Or Another/ Including Myself) nor the stats you claim to be objective. Every stat can be twisted to work in favor of the argument your presenting, I think that's been well established if not in this thread, than in the All Defensive Team thread already. Maybe you need to step back, and go read that thread from page one to the end.


I do not have a pro-LeBron agenda, buddy. I live near DC. I'm a Wizards fan. I've disliked LeBron for a few years now for obvious reasons. I lived in Chicago for all my life up until 1999. I grew up watching Jordan and so I'm definitely not a Jordan hater. Quite the opposite. I don't have an agenda I just recognize greatness when I see it, and I tell it like it is.

EDIT: And I forgot to mention that due to a bet I made with a friend, I will get slapped in the face if the Cavs win the championship this year (we made a slap bet, with me saying Lakers, him saying Cavs). All the more reason, I CLEARLY don't have a pro-LeBron agenda.

And if every stat can be twisted to work in favor of my argument, then why dont you twist some facts to fit your position instead of just making bold declarations backed by nothing?



> Secondly, I discussed the first 3 peat Bulls, I never brought up the 2nd 3 peat championship Bulls team. So I'm not going to even address, and respond to that dribble you posted regarding that team. Everyone know's that was an all time great team, with a great roster, that had defined players who were veterans already and well established.


I believe you mentioned the 72 win season. Thats 2nd 3peat. You also tried to say that I was not giving Jordan credit for winning so many games later on, implying the 1996 and 1997 years. You are wrong if you try to say you didnt discuss the 2nd 3-peat.



> Also when you decided to cherry pick an earlier team of the Bulls when Mj retired, you just so happened to pick the year/team that was coming off a 3 peat, the chemistry was built by then, the triangle was the big thing, Pippen/Grant etc had made their mark in the game by then, so it's not some shock to anyone that Bulls team won 50 games. They were an experienced well organized championship proven group by then.


The chemistry was built, but the Cavs team has amazing chemistry too, and they don't play well when LeBron is resting.

Anyways, I never said it was a shock that the Bulls won 55 games after Jordan left. Quite the opposite actually. It wasn't a shock, because they had a great team. Pippen was all-nba caliber. Grant was all-star caliber. BJ Armstrong was a borderline all-star level player. That Bulls team was a legit 50+ win team without Jordan, and that's my point. Jordan's teams may have dominated (although I wouldn't say they were DOMINANT every year they wont the title) but he had a REALLY talented team around him. LeBron's team is nowhere near that talented. Compare Mo Williams, Z, Varejao and, Delonte West to Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, and Paxson. Varejao and West are somewhat comparable in quality to Cartwright and Paxson, but overall the starting lineups minus Jordan/LeBron are not even close. The Bulls players are better. And as much as you harp on about it, a bench of Wally, Gibson, Pavlovic, JJ Hickson and an old Ben Wallace (I dont include Joe Smith cause he only played 21 games in the season) is nowhere near the Bull's bench of BJ Armstrong, Perdue, Levingston, Stacey King, Craig Hodges, and Scott Williams. In 1992, those Bulls players posted PERs of 14.1, 14.2, 13.1, 13.4, 10.4, and 14.6 respectively. This season, those Cavs players posted PERs of 12.1, 10.1, 8.6, 12.5, 12.2. Their bench plays good defense, but it's really not even close. Despite that, the Cavs are looking towards combining regular season AND playoff dominance to an extent that Jordan never did in his 1st three peat.




> If this same Cavs team was to improve like those Bulls teams did, and win 3 championships in a row for example, and LBJ retired, that team may very well win 50 games or close to it and lose in the semi conference finals just like the Bulls did. You totally under sell the Cavs, by saying they would only win 30 games to bolster LeBron, it's pathetic dude. Secondly, let me give you another example, when the Magic lost their best player in a trade in the 90s (Shaq to the lakers) they still won 45 games. There are more examples, just like this one.


They would not win 50 games. I dont care if they had playoff/championship experience. They would have no legitimate first option on offense at all. It would be a team of spot-up shooters, and they would be terrible offensively. Even with championships under their belt, that team minus LeBron would not be EVEN CLOSE to the Bulls teams minus Jordan.

It's pathetic that I undersell the Cavs without LeBron? They undersell themselves without LeBron, actually. In the 900 minutes LeBron was off the court this year, the Cavs scored 103.7 points per 100 possessions and gave up 109.6 points per 100 possessions. Thats really bad. They scored 1646 points and gave up 1783 in those 900 minutes. That means that for every 48 minutes, the Cavs without LeBron scored 87.79 points and gave up 95.09 points. Basketball-reference.com has a pretty accurate method of estimating wins for a team based on their points for and against over a season. The formula is (points scored)^14/(points scored + points given up)^14. We can use that formula to estimate how many wins the Cavs team would get if they played how they played without LeBron this year for an entire season. Multiply the points for and against by 82 as the formula is meant for an entire season. Then plug the numbers into the formula. You get an estimated winning percentage of 0.246. In other words, the Cavs played like a 20 win team when LeBron wasn't on the floor this year. I knew this when I posted earlier. I was being generous to say 30. Your only response to this ownage is going to be to say "stats lie" but that is not a valid response. Either come up with your own argument the other way, or come up with a legitimate reason why my stats are inaccurate.



> Also LeBron James didn't miss any games this season but one, the last game of the year. I have no idea what your talking about when you say LeBron missed games this season, and the Cavs roster underperformed. Just more BS coming down the line to Hype LeBron James.


Ya know, he doesn't play 48 minutes a game? The Cavs played 900 minutes without him this year, and were terrible during it, as proven above.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

lessthanjake, the problem is that when lebron is off the floor, alot of times other starters are off the floor as well.


----------



## GNG

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> I do not have a pro-LeBron agenda, buddy. I live near DC. I'm a Wizards fan. I've disliked LeBron for a few years now for obvious reasons. I lived in Chicago for all my life up until 1999. I grew up watching Jordan and so I'm definitely not a Jordan hater. Quite the opposite. I don't have an agenda I just recognize greatness when I see it, and I tell it like it is.
> 
> EDIT: And I forgot to mention that due to a bet I made with a friend, I will get slapped in the face if the Cavs win the championship this year (we made a slap bet, with me saying Lakers, him saying Cavs). All the more reason, I CLEARLY don't have a pro-LeBron agenda.
> 
> And if every stat can be twisted to work in favor of my argument, then why dont you twist some facts to fit your position instead of just making bold declarations backed by nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you mentioned the 72 win season. Thats 2nd 3peat. You also tried to say that I was not giving Jordan credit for winning so many games later on, implying the 1996 and 1997 years. You are wrong if you try to say you didnt discuss the 2nd 3-peat.
> 
> 
> 
> The chemistry was built, but the Cavs team has amazing chemistry too, and they don't play well when LeBron is resting.
> 
> Anyways, I never said it was a shock that the Bulls won 55 games after Jordan left. Quite the opposite actually. It wasn't a shock, because they had a great team. Pippen was all-nba caliber. Grant was all-star caliber. BJ Armstrong was a borderline all-star level player. That Bulls team was a legit 50+ win team without Jordan, and that's my point. Jordan's teams may have dominated (although I wouldn't say they were DOMINANT every year they wont the title) but he had a REALLY talented team around him. LeBron's team is nowhere near that talented. Compare Mo Williams, Z, Varejao and, Delonte West to Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, and Paxson. Varejao and West are somewhat comparable in quality to Cartwright and Paxson, but overall the starting lineups minus Jordan/LeBron are not even close. The Bulls players are better. And as much as you harp on about it, a bench of Wally, Gibson, Pavlovic, JJ Hickson and an old Ben Wallace (I dont include Joe Smith cause he only played 21 games in the season) is nowhere near the Bull's bench of BJ Armstrong, Perdue, Levingston, Stacey King, Craig Hodges, and Scott Williams. In 1992, those Bulls players posted PERs of 14.1, 14.2, 13.1, 13.4, 10.4, and 14.6 respectively. This season, those Cavs players posted PERs of 12.1, 10.1, 8.6, 12.5, 12.2. Their bench plays good defense, but it's really not even close. Despite that, the Cavs are looking towards combining regular season AND playoff dominance to an extent that Jordan never did in his 1st three peat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They would not win 50 games. I dont care if they had playoff/championship experience. They would have no legitimate first option on offense at all. It would be a team of spot-up shooters, and they would be terrible offensively. Even with championships under their belt, that team minus LeBron would not be EVEN CLOSE to the Bulls teams minus Jordan.
> 
> It's pathetic that I undersell the Cavs without LeBron? They undersell themselves without LeBron, actually. In the 900 minutes LeBron was off the court this year, the Cavs scored 103.7 points per 100 possessions and gave up 109.6 points per 100 possessions. Thats really bad. They scored 1646 points and gave up 1783 in those 900 minutes. That means that for every 48 minutes, the Cavs without LeBron scored 87.79 points and gave up 95.09 points. Basketball-reference.com has a pretty accurate method of estimating wins for a team based on their points for and against over a season. The formula is (points scored)^14/(points scored + points given up)^14. We can use that formula to estimate how many wins the Cavs team would get if they played how they played without LeBron this year for an entire season. Multiply the points for and against by 82 as the formula is meant for an entire season. Then plug the numbers into the formula. You get an estimated winning percentage of 0.246. In other words, the Cavs played like a 20 win team when LeBron wasn't on the floor this year. I knew this when I posted earlier. I was being generous to say 30. Your only response to this ownage is going to be to say "stats lie" but that is not a valid response. Either come up with your own argument the other way, or come up with a legitimate reason why my stats are inaccurate.
> 
> 
> 
> Ya know, he doesn't play 48 minutes a game? The Cavs played 900 minutes without him this year, and were terrible during it, as proven above.


Repped. Would read future posts.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> I do not have a pro-LeBron agenda, buddy. I live near DC. I'm a Wizards fan. I've disliked LeBron for a few years now for obvious reasons. I lived in Chicago for all my life up until 1999. I grew up watching Jordan and so I'm definitely not a Jordan hater. Quite the opposite. I don't have an agenda I just recognize greatness when I see it, and I tell it like it is.
> 
> EDIT: And I forgot to mention that due to a bet I made with a friend, I will get slapped in the face if the Cavs win the championship this year (we made a slap bet, with me saying Lakers, him saying Cavs). All the more reason, I CLEARLY don't have a pro-LeBron agenda.
> 
> And if every stat can be twisted to work in favor of my argument, then why dont you twist some facts to fit your position instead of just making bold declarations backed by nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you mentioned the 72 win season. Thats 2nd 3peat. You also tried to say that I was not giving Jordan credit for winning so many games later on, implying the 1996 and 1997 years. You are wrong if you try to say you didnt discuss the 2nd 3-peat.
> 
> 
> 
> The chemistry was built, but the Cavs team has amazing chemistry too, and they don't play well when LeBron is resting.
> 
> Anyways, I never said it was a shock that the Bulls won 55 games after Jordan left. Quite the opposite actually. It wasn't a shock, because they had a great team. Pippen was all-nba caliber. Grant was all-star caliber. BJ Armstrong was a borderline all-star level player. That Bulls team was a legit 50+ win team without Jordan, and that's my point. Jordan's teams may have dominated (although I wouldn't say they were DOMINANT every year they wont the title) but he had a REALLY talented team around him. LeBron's team is nowhere near that talented. Compare Mo Williams, Z, Varejao and, Delonte West to Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, and Paxson. Varejao and West are somewhat comparable in quality to Cartwright and Paxson, but overall the starting lineups minus Jordan/LeBron are not even close. The Bulls players are better. And as much as you harp on about it, a bench of Wally, Gibson, Pavlovic, JJ Hickson and an old Ben Wallace (I dont include Joe Smith cause he only played 21 games in the season) is nowhere near the Bull's bench of BJ Armstrong, Perdue, Levingston, Stacey King, Craig Hodges, and Scott Williams. In 1992, those Bulls players posted PERs of 14.1, 14.2, 13.1, 13.4, 10.4, and 14.6 respectively. This season, those Cavs players posted PERs of 12.1, 10.1, 8.6, 12.5, 12.2. Their bench plays good defense, but it's really not even close. Despite that, the Cavs are looking towards combining regular season AND playoff dominance to an extent that Jordan never did in his 1st three peat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They would not win 50 games. I dont care if they had playoff/championship experience. They would have no legitimate first option on offense at all. It would be a team of spot-up shooters, and they would be terrible offensively. Even with championships under their belt, that team minus LeBron would not be EVEN CLOSE to the Bulls teams minus Jordan.
> 
> It's pathetic that I undersell the Cavs without LeBron? They undersell themselves without LeBron, actually. In the 900 minutes LeBron was off the court this year, the Cavs scored 103.7 points per 100 possessions and gave up 109.6 points per 100 possessions. Thats really bad. They scored 1646 points and gave up 1783 in those 900 minutes. That means that for every 48 minutes, the Cavs without LeBron scored 87.79 points and gave up 95.09 points. Basketball-reference.com has a pretty accurate method of estimating wins for a team based on their points for and against over a season. The formula is (points scored)^14/(points scored + points given up)^14. We can use that formula to estimate how many wins the Cavs team would get if they played how they played without LeBron this year for an entire season. Multiply the points for and against by 82 as the formula is meant for an entire season. Then plug the numbers into the formula. You get an estimated winning percentage of 0.246. In other words, the Cavs played like a 20 win team when LeBron wasn't on the floor this year. I knew this when I posted earlier. I was being generous to say 30. Your only response to this ownage is going to be to say "stats lie" but that is not a valid response. Either come up with your own argument the other way, or come up with a legitimate reason why my stats are inaccurate.
> 
> 
> 
> Ya know, he doesn't play 48 minutes a game? The Cavs played 900 minutes without him this year, and were terrible during it, as proven above.


I would love to respond to this post, but you twisted my posts. I never brought up the 72 win Bulls. Please go back, and actually read my posts! You must be confusing me with another poster.

Second off your comparing the Cavs now, and I'm maintaing how the Cavs would develop after 3 years of winning championships, They wouldn't be any where near the same, as they all would improve, just like the first 3 peat Bulls did, remember before those Bulls teams ever won their first championship, they were not considered a great team, they were considered a one man show.

Now if you actually respond to my posts in the correct context, and not dilute everything with your assumptions, I would be more than happy to pick this conversation back up. So do yourself and me a favor actually go back to the beginning of our conversation, and notice the errors/assumptions you've made, correct them, and post your thoughts pertaining to my actual statement, and we can kick this back up.

And sorry dude but you do have your biased opinions, just like everyone on this board, your geographical position in this world doesn't make you any less biased either, Nice try, don't think I ever heard that one before, You down play the Cavs team's strengths, such as Defense! Where the Cavs as a team were 3rd in the league (very elite) And you post Pers, that barely account for defense, So yeah you have no biased opinions at all!! Everyone here can also spot greatness as well.

Also someone said quality post for you up above, well I don't agree that quality = quantity. Especially when you misrepresent a main factor of what I said, and use your argument against it. Like I said up above go back to the start, and read my posts carefully.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I would love to respond to this post, but you twisted my posts. I never brought up the 72 win Bulls. Please go back, and actually read my posts! You must be confusing me with another poster.
> 
> Second off your comparing the Cavs now, and I'm maintaing how the Cavs would develop after 3 years of winning championships, They wouldn't be any where near the same, as they all would improve, just like the first 3 peat Bulls did, remember before those Bulls teams ever won their first championship, they were not considered a great team, they were considered a one man show.
> 
> Now if you actually respond to my posts in the correct context, and not dilute everything with your assumptions, I would be more than happy to pick this conversation back up. So do yourself and me a favor actually go back to the beginning of our conversation, and notice the errors/assumptions you've made, correct them, and post your thoughts pertaining to my actual statement, and we can kick this back up.
> 
> And sorry dude but you do have your biased opinions, just like everyone on this board, your geographical position in this world doesn't make you any less biased either, Nice try, don't think I ever heard that one before, You down play the Cavs team's strengths, such as Defense! Where the Cavs as a team were 3rd in the league (very elite) And you post Pers, that barely account for defense, So yeah you have no biased opinions at all!! Everyone here can also spot greatness as well.
> 
> Also someone said quality post for you up above, well I don't agree that quality = quantity. Especially when you misrepresent a main factor of what I said, and use your argument against it. Like I said up above go back to the start, and read my posts carefully.


What did he misinterpret?


----------



## Luke

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I would love to respond to this post, but you twisted my posts. I never brought up the 72 win Bulls. Please go back, and actually read my posts! You must be confusing me with another poster.
> 
> Second off your comparing the Cavs now, and I'm maintaing how the Cavs would develop after 3 years of winning championships, They wouldn't be any where near the same, as they all would improve, just like the first 3 peat Bulls did, remember before those Bulls teams ever won their first championship, they were not considered a great team, they were considered a one man show.
> 
> Now if you actually respond to my posts in the correct context, and not dilute everything with your assumptions, I would be more than happy to pick this conversation back up. So do yourself and me a favor actually go back to the beginning of our conversation, and notice the errors/assumptions you've made, correct them, and post your thoughts pertaining to my actual statement, and we can kick this back up.
> 
> And sorry dude but you do have your biased opinions, just like everyone on this board, your geographical position in this world doesn't make you any less biased either, Nice try, don't think I ever heard that one before, You down play the Cavs team's strengths, such as Defense! Where the Cavs as a team were 3rd in the league (very elite) And you post Pers, that barely account for defense, So yeah you have no biased opinions at all!! Everyone here can also spot greatness as well.
> 
> Also someone said quality post for you up above, well I don't agree that quality = quantity. Especially when you misrepresent a main factor of what I said, and use your argument against it. Like I said up above go back to the start, and read my posts carefully.



I didn't realize that a team whoose supporting cast that played as well as Jordan's did could still be considered a "One man team"

In the finals here were some averages - 

Pippen - 21/9.5/6.6 while doing a VERY nice job on Magic.

Grant put up 15/8 with great D on 62% shooting from the field.

Paxson only averaged 14 a game, but did so on 65% shooting, mostly on long range jumpers.

Seems like a pretty good supporting cast to me.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

23aj - do you think the cavs have a pippen? if the cavs do win 3 straight, it seems unlikely any of their players will develop into a pippen. pippen wasn't considered great before the first 3peat because he wasn't great, and because he was a young player who developed into a stud. grant was also a young player who developed. the cavs don't really have guys like that. doesn't mean they don't have good, quality players. but it seems unlikely that 3 years from now we're going to be calling mo williams for the dream team.


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> Anyways, I never said it was a shock that the Bulls won 55 games after Jordan left. Quite the opposite actually. *It wasn't a shock, because they had a great team. Pippen was all-nba caliber. Grant was all-star caliber. BJ Armstrong was a borderline all-star level player*. That Bulls team was a legit 50+ win team without Jordan, and that's my point. Jordan's teams may have dominated (although I wouldn't say they were DOMINANT every year they wont the title) but he had a REALLY talented team around him. LeBron's team is nowhere near that talented. Compare Mo Williams, Z, Varejao and, Delonte West to Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, and Paxson. Varejao and West are somewhat comparable in quality to Cartwright and Paxson, but overall the starting lineups minus Jordan/LeBron are not even close. The Bulls players are better. And as much as you harp on about it, a bench of Wally, Gibson, Pavlovic, JJ Hickson and an old Ben Wallace (I dont include Joe Smith cause he only played 21 games in the season) is nowhere near the Bull's bench of BJ Armstrong, Perdue, Levingston, Stacey King, Craig Hodges, and Scott Williams. In 1992, those Bulls players posted PERs of 14.1, 14.2, 13.1, 13.4, 10.4, and 14.6 respectively. This season, those Cavs players posted PERs of 12.1, 10.1, 8.6, 12.5, 12.2. Their bench plays good defense, but it's really not even close. Despite that, the Cavs are looking towards combining regular season AND playoff dominance to an extent that Jordan never did in his 1st three peat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They would not win 50 games. I dont care if they had playoff/championship experience. They would have no legitimate first option on offense at all. It would be a team of spot-up shooters, and they would be terrible offensively. Even with championships under their belt, that team minus LeBron would not be EVEN CLOSE to the Bulls teams minus Jordan.
> 
> It's pathetic that I undersell the Cavs without LeBron? They undersell themselves without LeBron, actually. In the 900 minutes LeBron was off the court this year, the Cavs scored 103.7 points per 100 possessions and gave up 109.6 points per 100 possessions. Thats really bad. They scored 1646 points and gave up 1783 in those 900 minutes. That means that for every 48 minutes, the Cavs without LeBron scored 87.79 points and gave up 95.09 points. Basketball-reference.com has a pretty accurate method of estimating wins for a team based on their points for and against over a season. The formula is (points scored)^14/(points scored + points given up)^14. We can use that formula to estimate how many wins the Cavs team would get if they played how they played without LeBron this year for an entire season. Multiply the points for and against by 82 as the formula is meant for an entire season. Then plug the numbers into the formula. You get an estimated winning percentage of 0.246. In other words, the Cavs played like a 20 win team when LeBron wasn't on the floor this year. I knew this when I posted earlier. I was being generous to say 30. Your only response to this ownage is going to be to say "stats lie" but that is not a valid response. Either come up with your own argument the other way, or come up with a legitimate reason why my stats are inaccurate.
> 
> 
> 
> Ya know, he doesn't play 48 minutes a game? The Cavs played 900 minutes without him this year, and were terrible during it, as proven above.


:lol:

Scottie Pippen was All-NBA for sure. Actually people sell him short now a days because he was all-time NBA. There's a reason he was voted top 50 players ever.

That part you got right, but the rest was way off. Horace Grant was a 1x all-star. He wasn't all-star caliber. He was a role player, and a good one, but Z has made more all-star games and is a better player.

Super LOL at BJ Armstrong being a borderline all-star. Super LOL. He wouldn't start ahead of Delonte West. He was a 3 point specialist, and that's it. Literally. There's a reason players like Paxon, and Kerr had a spot on the Bulls. They were great shooters like Armstrong, but they weren't starter worhty pg's. Freaking Steve Blake would start over Armstrong. Armstrong had no game at all other than stand-still 10 foot wide open 3 point shot.

The reason the Bulls won 55 games without Jordan is because of Pippen. People underestimate him now, but he was and is an all-time great player.


I also wouldn't undersell the Cavs. By your standards they have 4-5 borderline all-stars in Z, Mo Willaims, Wally, and Gibson (yeah that's right if Armstrong is borderline all-star Gibson is too LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL). I'm pretty sure this team would be more than competitive and win 40 games without Lebron.

This isn't a slight on Lebron. Nobody expects him to win 6 in a row or anything because he doesn't have Scottie, but don't undersell the rest of the team either.

And lastly, Lebron has had a special 2 years the last two years, but he's still a looooooooooooooooooooong way from Michael. Just let the kid play, and maybe after a couple of years these types of debates will have more merit.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

There is no universe existent where Wally Szczerbiak Szczuperstar is a "borderline all star" unless we're expanding the definition to include borderline NBA starters.


----------



## Bon]{eRz

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lakeshows said:


> Horace Grant was a 1x all-star. He wasn't all-star caliber. He was a role player, and a good one, but Z has made more all-star games and is a better player.


Its not fair to compare these two players by all star appearances. Horace was competing for all star spots with much higher quality PF's during his years, than the quality of centres Z had to compete with (Ratliff, Malgoire were also good enough to play centre in the east in Z's time!) Horace Grant was also 4 times all-defensive team, you're selling him short.



> Super LOL at BJ Armstrong being a borderline all-star. Super LOL.


BJ Armstrong was an all star starter in 1994. So not sure what's so funny about this statement. 



> I also wouldn't undersell the Cavs. By your standards they have 4-5 borderline all-stars in Z, Mo Willaims, Wally, and Gibson (yeah that's right if Armstrong is borderline all-star Gibson is too LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL). I'm pretty sure this team would be more than competitive and win 40 games without Lebron.


Even if by your more generous assumption that Cavs would win 40 games without lebron, that's still saying Lebron's worth an extra 26 games to the team. That's mind boggling! The one full season without Jordan in 93/94 Bulls won only 2 less games their previous season with Jordan. That speaks volumes about the quality of talent surrounding Lebron this year, to what Jordan had on his championship teams.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> 23aj - do you think the cavs have a pippen? if the cavs do win 3 straight, it seems unlikely any of their players will develop into a pippen. pippen wasn't considered great before the first 3peat because he wasn't great, and because he was a young player who developed into a stud. grant was also a young player who developed. the cavs don't really have guys like that. doesn't mean they don't have good, quality players. but it seems unlikely that 3 years from now we're going to be calling mo williams for the dream team.


I totally agree with you regarding Pippen. Pippen completely earned his stripes, but before the Bull's ever won a chip, Pippen was a softy, and extremely raw. Some consider as great as Pippen became still a soft player mentally. However my point more so to the Cavs fan that's been debating this to me, is that the Cavs chemistry, and improvement of the teams players, coaching, and franchise could very well have them playing great with out LBJ if he was to retire under those kind of circumstances, and I believe might be able to make the 2nd round and lose, just like Pippen and the Bulls did. 

It's kind of a silly debate, but that first 3 peat team wasn't stacked with all time great talent, and an aura as the 2nd peat team. Two totally different animals.


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I totally agree with you regarding Pippen. Pippen completely earned his stripes, but before the Bull's ever won a chip, Pippen was a softy, and extremely raw. Some consider as great as Pippen became still a soft player mentally. However my point more so to the Cavs fan that's been debating this to me, is that the Cavs chemistry, and improvement of the teams players, coaching, and franchise could very well have them playing great with out LBJ if he was to retire under those kind of circumstances, and I believe might be able to make the 2nd round and lose, just like Pippen and the Bulls did.
> 
> It's kind of a silly debate, but that first 3 peat team wasn't stacked with all time great talent, and an aura as the 2nd peat team. Two totally different animals.


No your a crackhead if you think the Cavs could make it past the first round without LeBron, they might not even make the playoffs. The Bulls almost made it to the finals that year because Pippen was leading them and he was one of the top 5 players in the league, and Pippen was the 2nd best SF of all time after Bird. This is not considering where LeBron will be (most likely best SF ever).


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



> I would love to respond to this post, but you twisted my posts. I never brought up the 72 win Bulls. Please go back, and actually read my posts! You must be confusing me with another poster.


I dont think I am confusing you with someone else. I'll go back later, though. Studying for a microeconomics final tomorrow, so I can only waste a certain amount of time right now.



> Second off your comparing the Cavs now, and I'm maintaing how the Cavs would develop after 3 years of winning championships, They wouldn't be any where near the same, as they all would improve, just like the first 3 peat Bulls did, remember before those Bulls teams ever won their first championship, they were not considered a great team, they were considered a one man show.


The Cavs players dont have the raw talent that players like Pippen had. I dont think winning championships somehow makes you a more talented player. It doesnt. The Cavs players might get better with age, but that is all irrelevant. I am talking about what they are doing THIS YEAR, without any championship experience. Except for 1991, Jordan always had teams with championship experience. That came BECAUSE of Jordan, obviously, but thats not my point. If you think championship experience makes a team better, then the fact is that Jordan's teams (besides 1991) all have that advantage over LeBrons Cavs this year. Whether its cause of that reason or some other reason, they are still an obviously better team. It hardly matters why.




> Now if you actually respond to my posts in the correct context, and not dilute everything with your assumptions, I would be more than happy to pick this conversation back up. So do yourself and me a favor actually go back to the beginning of our conversation, and notice the errors/assumptions you've made, correct them, and post your thoughts pertaining to my actual statement, and we can kick this back up.


Okay, ummm, that was such a fail at an argument. When people dont have a response, they tend to just say "You took what I said out of context" and not provide ANY details as to what was taken out of context and how. Thats what you just did. Try again.



> And sorry dude but you do have your biased opinions, just like everyone on this board, your geographical position in this world doesn't make you any less biased either, Nice try, don't think I ever heard that one before, You down play the Cavs team's strengths, such as Defense! Where the Cavs as a team were 3rd in the league (very elite) And you post Pers, that barely account for defense, So yeah you have no biased opinions at all!! Everyone here can also spot greatness as well.


Dude, I have a poster of Jordan in my dorm room. When I lived in Chicago, I painted a Chicago Bull on my wall. My fondest basketball watching memory of all time is watching Jordan's layup/steal/jump-shot to win game 6 of the 1998 finals. And I could honestly have been classified as a LeBron hater for the last few years because I hated how he beat the Wizards every year and was convinced he travelled all the time. I really didn't like LeBron. But the fact is, he is having a historic year, and that makes me appreciate him regardless. I so clearly do not have some pro-LeBron or anti-Jordan bias. I can just objectively see that LeBron is playing amazingly this year.

And I didnt downplay defense in talking about PER. Notice after I talked about PERs, I mentioned that the Cavs play good defense. They do. But the problem is the Bulls teams played similarly good defense, while also posting significantly better PERs. PER is not the be all end all of statistics, obviously, but it clearly does show that the Bulls bench was a rung or two above the Cavs bench this year. 

Furthermore, when LeBron is off the court, the Cavs actually play below average defense. That is not true of other teams with good defenses. FOr instance, the Magic without Dwight still played great defense this year (which is actually surprising cause they have a lot of lame defensive players). So obviously, the bench isnt THAT stellar defensively.



> lessthanjake, the problem is that when lebron is off the floor, alot of times other starters are off the floor as well.


That is factual. But that's true of other stars on good teams this year, like Kobe or Dwight, and their teams fare WAY better without them than the Cavs do without him. I am awaiting 82games' ADJUSTED +/- ratings for this year, because that will adjust for who he plays with on the court. LeBron has been 2nd in the league the last three years in that, I believe, and I'm sure he will run away with first this year.



> That part you got right, but the rest was way off. Horace Grant was a 1x all-star. He wasn't all-star caliber. He was a role player, and a good one, but Z has made more all-star games and is a better player.
> 
> Super LOL at BJ Armstrong being a borderline all-star.


Horace Grant was a 15/10/3 player who played excellent defense. 

Grant posted better assist %s than Z. He had a greater rebound % than Z. He had on average a better TS% than Z while getting similar points. Grant turned the ball over only very rarely. Z got more blocks, while Grant got more steals and was an all-defensive team player during that period. Overall Grant is better on defense.

Early 1990s Horace Grant is a better player than Ilgauskas. Ilgauskas made 2 all star teams because the center position is extremely weak these days. He is NOT a better player than Grant was in almost any aspect of the game.

And BJ Armstrong was clearly borderline all-star as he did, in fact, make the all star team in 1994.


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Bon]{eRz said:


> Its not fair to compare these two players by all star appearances. Horace was competing for all star spots with much higher quality PF's during his years, than the quality of centres Z had to compete with (Ratliff, Malgoire were also good enough to play centre in the east in Z's time!) Horace Grant was also 4 times all-defensive team, you're selling him short.
> 
> 
> 
> BJ Armstrong was an all star starter in 1994. So not sure what's so funny about this statement.
> 
> 
> 
> Even if by your more generous assumption that Cavs would win 40 games without lebron, that's still saying Lebron's worth an extra 26 games to the team. That's mind boggling! The one full season without Jordan in 93/94 Bulls won only 2 less games their previous season with Jordan. That speaks volumes about the quality of talent surrounding Lebron this year, to what Jordan had on his championship teams.


BJ Armstrong was no where near an all-star his career. Even wally world made an all-star appearance. If you are going to include BJ as all-star worthy supporting cast that's like me saying Lebron has Ben Wallace who is 4 x DPOY and 5-time all-NBA.

Like I said I do think Lebron has had a special year this year, and even last year. This year especially because of how he has stepped up his defense. He's just not in Michael's stratosphere yet. So give him some time. I don't put it out of the realm of possibility that he can pass Jordan, but he hasn't done anything yet to support such a discussion because 1 or 2 years doesn't do much when comparing careers (especially when it doesn't include any rings).


----------



## Brandname

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Gotta hand it to you lessthanjake, you're making some pretty damn good posts in this thread.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



> BJ Armstrong was no where near an all-star his career. Even wally world made an all-star appearance. If you are going to include BJ as all-star worthy supporting cast that's like me saying Lebron has Ben Wallace who is 4 x DPOY and 5-time all-NBA.


The difference is that Wally made his all-star game 7 years ago. Ben Wallace made his last one 3 years ago and has had a fast decline. BJ made his one all star game in 1994. This means he was roughly at that borderline all-star level at least the last couple seasons of the first three-peat, whereas wally and ben are different players than they were when they made all-star games.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> The difference is that Wally made his all-star game 7 years ago. Ben Wallace made his last one 3 years ago and has had a fast decline. BJ made his one all star game in 1994. This means he was roughly at that borderline all-star level at least the last couple seasons of the first three-peat, whereas wally and ben are different players than they were when they made all-star games.


Big Ben made a resurgence this season. If you are as objective as you claim you would know that. Sorry dude but so many of your posts hint of a biased agenda. Also that's the last time I will bring up anything about you being biased, cause as long as your human you will be. And I see it in a lot of your posts, even if you don't want to recognize it.

Also I'm not going to quote your other post, because there was a lot in it that didn't pertain to me. However when you do go back, and notice that I never made several of the statements you were arguing with me about, we can continue our debate, or what's left of it. As it's obvious to me, we are both debating two different things. You are keeping everything pertaining to this season Cavs, and I was discussing how the Cavs would react as a team if LBJ was to retire after 3 years of winning championships. So neither of our statements means anything directed to one another.


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> The difference is that Wally made his all-star game 7 years ago. Ben Wallace made his last one 3 years ago and has had a fast decline. BJ made his one all star game in 1994. This means he was roughly at that borderline all-star level at least the last couple seasons of the first three-peat, whereas wally and ben are different players than they were when they made all-star games.


BJ Armstrong was no all-star caliber player. His career high ppg was 14.8. He had 2 years with ppg over 12 and both of those were the two years MJ didn't play. He had 2 years of 12 ppg before and after those years and every other year was under 10 ppg.

His "all-star" year was 14.8 ppg and 3.9 apg. You continue telling everybody that that's "all-star caliber". He had 4 years in double digits in scoring. Delonte West is a better player.

He made the all-star team because he had 3 rings (aka he made the all-star team because of Jordan). Jordan also made Luc Longley seem serviceable as a center (as so the Knicks gave him like an 8 year contract).


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Ben Wallace was good for the first month of the year and then completely wore down, got hurt, and then has been a non-factor since. As long as he provides more then Darnell Jackson off the bench I'll be happy - that how far he's dropped off.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Big Ben made a resurgence this season. If you are as objective as you claim you would know that. Sorry dude but so many of your posts hint of a biased agenda. Also that's the last time I will bring up anything about you being biased, cause as long as your human you will be. And I see it in a lot of your posts, even if you don't want to recognize it.


if you can't acknowledge that ben wallace now isn't anything close to the caliber of player ben wallace was with the pistons when he was winning defensive player of the year awards(and the same with wally not being close to the player he was when he was allstar though i don't remember if you tried to make that argument or not), then you really shouldn't be having discussions about those players at all.

there is a huge difference between allstar caliber players in their primes and players who were formerly allstar caliber players but aren't playing at anything close to that level anymore.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> if you can't acknowledge that ben wallace now isn't anything close to the caliber of player ben wallace was with the pistons when he was winning defensive player of the year awards(and the same with wally not being close to the player he was when he was allstar though i don't remember if you tried to make that argument or not), then you really shouldn't be having discussions about those players at all.
> 
> there is a huge difference between allstar caliber players in their primes and players who were formerly allstar caliber players but aren't playing at anything close to that level anymore.


I would say with Big Ben that's a fair point when he was playing with the Bulls, he was apathetic, because it was such a bumpy road there for him. However since joining up with the Cavs, there is no doubt in my mind while he's not the DPOTYA Ben anymore, he's not the shell of that DPOTYA like we saw with the Bulls. Actually just my opinion here, but I think Big Ben before his injury was the Cavs best interior defender by a wide margin, and his resurgence, even though I'm not a Cavs fan, was nice to see, as I've been a long time Pistons supporter since the early 80s. 

As far as Wally, I never commented on him.


----------



## GNG

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Ben Wallace posted his lowest points per game average since his rookie season in 1996-97.

Ben Wallace posted his lowest rebounds per game average since the 1997-98 season.

Ben Wallace posted his lowest blocks per game average since the 1997-98 season.


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> if you can't acknowledge that ben wallace now isn't anything close to the caliber of player ben wallace was with the pistons when he was winning defensive player of the year awards(and the same with wally not being close to the player he was when he was allstar though i don't remember if you tried to make that argument or not), then you really shouldn't be having discussions about those players at all.
> 
> there is a huge difference between allstar caliber players in their primes and players who were formerly allstar caliber players but aren't playing at anything close to that level anymore.


Wally isn't the player he once was, but then again he had a year with over 20 ppg. BJ Armstrong never touched that. His career high was 14.8 ppg. 

BJ Armstrong's best year with Jordan was 12 ppg. His best. Wally last year averaged 11.5 ppg. Wally is a career 14.1 ppg player. Yeah that's right Wally career avg is at the level of BJ Armstrongs "best year".

At the best it's a wash. And if you wanna argue that BJ Armstong is a fringe all-star, thent he Cavs have like 7 fringe all-stars. That was the point there. 

The biggest thing Jordan had was Pippen. Lebron has no one close to that. Stick to that if you wanna argue Jordan had a better cast. Don't claim BJ Armstrong was some great contributor.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lakeshows said:


> Wally isn't the player he once was, but then again he had a year with over 20 ppg. BJ Armstrong never touched that. His career high was 14.8 ppg.
> 
> BJ Armstrong's best year with Jordan was 12 ppg. His best. Wally last year averaged 11.5 ppg. Wally is a career 14.1 ppg player. Yeah that's right Wally career avg is at the level of BJ Armstrongs "best year".
> 
> At the best it's a wash. And if you wanna argue that BJ Armstong is a fringe all-star, thent he Cavs have like 7 fringe all-stars. That was the point there.
> 
> The biggest thing Jordan had was Pippen. Lebron has no one close to that. Stick to that if you wanna argue Jordan had a better cast. Don't claim BJ Armstrong was some great contributor.


no, that isn't true at all.

wally now is nothing close to the player he was when he was an allstar. what he did then is irrelevant. his career averages are irrelevant as well. pretending like you can call the wally of today the equivalent to bj armstrong in his allstar year because wally made one allstar game in the past is just utterly ridiculous.

and no, you have absolutely no point with your "fringe allstar" argument. even if just to make you happy, we say that west equals bj and z of this year equals horace grant of those years, you still come down to pippen against mo williams.


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> no, that isn't true at all.
> 
> wally now is nothing close to the player he was when he was an allstar. what he did then is irrelevant. his career averages are irrelevant as well. pretending like you can call the wally of today the equivalent to bj armstrong in his allstar year because wally made one allstar game in the past is just utterly ridiculous.


Actually all of that was and is true. In BJ's "all-star" year, Jordan didn't play. His best year with Jordan was 12 ppg. Last year while playing with Lebron Wally averaged 11.5 ppg. While playing with Jordan BJ averaged 9.15 ppg and about 3.5 apg as a pg. That's by no means fringe "all-star" which is why I compared to a worn down Wally.



rocketeer said:


> and no, you have absolutely no point with your "fringe allstar" argument. even if just to make you happy, we say that west equals bj and z of this year equals horace grant of those years, you still come down to pippen against mo williams.


Delonte is actually a much better player than 9 ppg and 3.5 apg. Delonte brings defense and rebounds much better. And if BJ at 9ppg and 3apg is a "fringe all-star" then Anderson Verajao and Wally in addition to mo williams, z, and delonte are all "fringe all-stars".

I can admit Jordan had better teams. It's why he won 6. James still has a donut in that column.

Like I said earlier: The biggest arguement you can make is that Lebron doesn't have a Pippen. But then again Lebron hasn't won 3 straight twice either. He's still young though so I'll wait a couple years (or maybe a few or several years if ever) 'til we can reasonably make a comparison.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lakeshows said:


> Delonte is actually a much better player than 9 ppg and 3.5 apg. Delonte brings defense and rebounds much better. And if BJ at 9ppg and 3apg is a "fringe all-star" then Anderson Verajao and Wally in addition to mo williams, z, and delonte are all "fringe all-stars".


no, that isn't true at all. suggesting that varejao, wally, and west are currently allstar caliber players is absolutely ridiculous. mo williams made the allstar game only as an injury replacement(and mostly because of the cavs record), while the only way z has gotten a look as an allstar is because there were so few good centers(and he isn't playing at that level anymore). to say that bj armstrong and horace grant were allstar caliber players for the bulls is simply stating a fact.


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> no, that isn't true at all. suggesting that varejao, wally, and west are currently allstar caliber players is absolutely ridiculous.


It's as ridiculous as claiming BJ Armstrong is a fringe all-star.



rocketeer said:


> to say that bj armstrong and horace grant were allstar caliber players for the bulls is simply stating a fact.


BJ never made the all-star team playing with MJ. That's like me saying Wally has been on the all-star team. FACT. Ben Wallace is a 4 time DPOY. FACT. Ben Wallace is a 5 time All-Star. FACT. etc, etc, + more stupid facts, etc, etc.

There's me stating "facts". LOL.


Stick to Pippen if you wanna argue MJ had a better supporting cast (and he did have a better supporting cast). But then again MJ: 6, LBJ: 0.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lakeshows said:


> BJ never made the all-star team playing with MJ. That's like me saying Wally has been on the all-star team. FACT. Ben Wallace is a 4 time DPOY. FACT. Ben Wallace is a 5 time All-Star. FACT. etc, etc, + more stupid facts, etc, etc.


of course, none of those facts have anything to do with this cavs team. wally and ben are no longer capable of playing at the levels they played at earlier in their careers. them making past allstar games is irrelevant.

however, bj armstrong making an allstar team with the bulls even if it was during jordan's first year of his first retirement is relevant to jordan's supporting cast.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



> Big Ben made a resurgence this season. If you are as objective as you claim you would know that. Sorry dude but so many of your posts hint of a biased agenda. Also that's the last time I will bring up anything about you being biased, cause as long as your human you will be. And I see it in a lot of your posts, even if you don't want to recognize it.


Haha you are still calling me biased? Its just untrue. I dont have an agenda. The only POSSIBLE of bias I might have is that I think its kinda fun to watch someone having a historic season, so maybe I am prone to calling LeBron's season historic for that reason. However, there truly is NO Cavs bias. I am totally ambivalent towards the Cavs. Don't care one way or the other.



> You are keeping everything pertaining to this season Cavs, and I was discussing how the Cavs would react as a team if LBJ was to retire after 3 years of winning championships. So neither of our statements means anything directed to one another.


Yes thats true. But I thought your argument was off topic. The fact that the Bulls won 55 games after Jordan left isnt my main piece of evidence that they were a better supporting cast. They were a better team from the first championship season on. Sure, the fact that they got lots of good experience winning championships may have made them better when Jordan left, but they wouldve been damn good without that too. 



> BJ Armstrong was no all-star caliber player. His career high ppg was 14.8. He had 2 years with ppg over 12 and both of those were the two years MJ didn't play. He had 2 years of 12 ppg before and after those years and every other year was under 10 ppg.
> 
> His "all-star" year was 14.8 ppg and 3.9 apg. You continue telling everybody that that's "all-star caliber". He had 4 years in double digits in scoring. Delonte West is a better player.
> 
> He made the all-star team because he had 3 rings (aka he made the all-star team because of Jordan). Jordan also made Luc Longley seem serviceable as a center (as so the Knicks gave him like an 8 year contract).


I dont think BJ necessarily deserved getting his all-star nod. It had something to do with the Bulls still doing well without Jordan, which surprised some. However, BJ was a very solid player who DID make an all-star team, whether he was completely worthy of it or not. And here comes the catch. In 1991 and 1992, he was the Bulls' BACK UP point guard. Paxson wasnt that much better than BJ, but that just goes to show how deep that team was and how good their bench was, that their back up PG would be an all star a couple years later.



> I would say with Big Ben that's a fair point when he was playing with the Bulls, he was apathetic, because it was such a bumpy road there for him. However since joining up with the Cavs, there is no doubt in my mind while he's not the DPOTYA Ben anymore, he's not the shell of that DPOTYA like we saw with the Bulls. Actually just my opinion here, but I think Big Ben before his injury was the Cavs best interior defender by a wide margin, and his resurgence, even though I'm not a Cavs fan, was nice to see, as I've been a long time Pistons supporter since the early 80s.


He's like their 4th string big man right now in the playoffs. Z and Varejao start, and Joe Smith is first off the bench, I believe. If he were so great now, they wouldnt do that. Now, I cant comment on earlier in the year, because I didnt see him very much, but thats another thing. The Cavs had to deal with a fair few injuries. More than you would expect from a 66 win team. Most teams that win 65+ games are amazing AND lucky in terms of injuries. 



> Delonte is actually a much better player than 9 ppg and 3.5 apg. Delonte brings defense and rebounds much better. And if BJ at 9ppg and 3apg is a "fringe all-star" then Anderson Verajao and Wally in addition to mo williams, z, and delonte are all "fringe all-stars".


We are talking about bench players. THeir stats are kind of irrelevant actually because that depends mostly on the playing time they get, not their actual skills.

BJ never put up amazing numbers with the Bulls with Jordan there, but he obviously was a very talented player if he got an all star berth the year Jordan left. Again, his stats weren't that great that year either, and you could argue he didnt deserve it, but the fact that he DID make the all-star team shows that he was a very high quality player regardless of whether youd deem him "all star worthy" or not. He played less minutes during the three-peat, so he didnt put up high numbers, but he clearly had the talent to be a reasonably special player at the time. 



> I can admit Jordan had better teams. It's why he won 6. James still has a donut in that column.


Thats why the thread is about whether he will EVENTUALLY pass Jordan. If LeBron proves to have killer instincts in the playoffs like MJ, and doesnt get injured he will definitely have a chance to equal Jordan's 6 rings. LeBron has about 10 more years to play at a high level. Its reasonable to assume that he will contend for the title every year during that period, as the Cavs have already assembled a title-worthy team, theyll just have to tweak it over time. Jordan only got to the point LeBron is at now when he was 27. Its certainly possible that LeBron could get MORE rings than Jordan simply by virtue of contending earlier. We shall have to see.



> Like I said earlier: The biggest arguement you can make is that Lebron doesn't have a Pippen. But then again Lebron hasn't won 3 straight twice either. He's still young though so I'll wait a couple years (or maybe a few or several years if ever) 'til we can reasonably make a comparison.


I made that argument about Pippen. But teams are more than just their top 2 players. And I wanted to point out that even BEYOND the fact that the Cavs have no one even close to Pippen, the rest of their squad is inferior too.

Honestly, I think it would be amazing if the Cavs won the title this year. Very few players lead teams to titles while being really the only star player on the team. KG had Pierce and Allen. Wade had Shaq. Duncan had DRob, then Parker and Ginobili (although for the 2003 title none of those players were that good). Shaq had Kobe. Jordan had Pippen. Magic had Kareem and Worthy. Bird had McHale and Parish. etc etc. Now I realize that some legends are made BECAUSE they won championships, but I really dont feel like Mo Williams could ever rise to the kind of level of the players I mentioned. The only player in recent memory who really lead his team to a championship like LeBron would have if the Cavs won this year is Hakeem in 1994 (not 1995 cause he had Drexler).


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

bj armstrong made one all-star game. he was not really all-star caliber. he was voted in by the fans playing for the most popular team in the league. he had a good first month of the season that propelled him. him being voted in by the fans doesn't tell us much at all about how good he was. he was what he was. which was a decent, easily replaced role player, who happened to have a pretty good start to the '94 season playing for the marquee team in the league.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I mentioned that I dont think he necessarily deserved an all-star nod. Thats why I started out calling him a "borderline all-star" instead of just an all star despite the fact that he made the all-star team in the year in question. But the point is that he WAS a talented player. It's not really a big deal, though. Both Bulls teams minus Jordan are far better than this Cavs team minus LeBron.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> if you can't acknowledge that ben wallace now isn't anything close to the caliber of player ben wallace was with the pistons when he was winning defensive player of the year awards(and the same with wally not being close to the player he was when he was allstar though i don't remember if you tried to make that argument or not), then you really shouldn't be having discussions about those players at all.
> 
> there is a huge difference between allstar caliber players in their primes and players who were formerly allstar caliber players but aren't playing at anything close to that level anymore.


Before mentioning the fact that Wally Szczerbiak Szczuperstar's _one_ all star appearance was as an injury replacement.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Not tonight he isn't.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

^ You're bumping a thread on a night LeBron goes 49/6/8/67%? Fact is LeBron is statistically having a better postseason than Jordan has ever had. Get over it, you guys are too easy to punk.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Not tonight he isn't.


:whofarted


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Not tonight he isn't.


do you mean to say that tonight lebron isn't "going to pass jordan" because he's already passed him? because based on his performance tonight, that's the only way your statement could make any kind of sense.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

In basketball, there's something called judgment. Intelligence. You can't just barge through through the line at Century Cinemas on the opening night of Transformers, grab the cash register, and expect to make a clean getaway. 

LeBron is strong, but he's a little dumb. Try again, bucko. And next time, try a ball fake.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Cap said:


> ^ You're bumping a thread on a night LeBron goes 49/6/8/67%? Fact is LeBron is statistically having a better postseason than Jordan has ever had. Get over it, you guys are too easy to punk.


And here comes the Cap, who is, quite handy.

Study that basketball reference little bit better, then, come back again. You will be surprised.


----------



## bballlife

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



ehmunro said:


> Before mentioning the fact that Wally Szczerbiak Szczuperstar's _one_ all star appearance was as an injury replacement.


Pretty sure the only injury replacement for the West that year was Brand for Shaq.

edit:

Yup.

http://www.nba.com/allstar2002/reserves_020129.html

http://www.nba.com/history/allstar/injury_replacements.html


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

At this pace, LeBron might pass Jordan for career playoff points by the time he is 30.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Erm, OK.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> And here comes the Cap, who is, quite handy.
> 
> Study that basketball reference little bit better, then, come back again. You will be surprised.


Zing!


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Doh!


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

^ rofl. Too predictable.


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I have yet to realize he will pass Jordan. 

After this season I have realized that he will probably pass Kobe on the all-time NBA list. Notice he hasn't passed him quite yet, but I have realized he will pass him based on what I've seen him do so far. This isn't a slight at all. This places him in the top 5-10 players of all-time territory. To seperate yourself from players in that category takes a lot more however.


To be better than the universally agreed upon GOAT you have to be better than just an MVP. *You have to be better than just the best player in the NBA for a year or two or even five. You have to be the best player ever.* For me to even think this he has to win championships. Like plural for me to even consider him to pass the GOAT. After 1 ring I might start thinking it, but it won't really be plausible. After 2 rings I might be able to say "Hey if he wins another 2 or 4 (or X) rings he'll be the GOAT.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I dont know man, MJ was a bad ***, the type of fella who rarely failed once he tasted and had a firm grip of success. Maybe we have a lot of people in this site who did'nt get a chance to watch Jordan at his best. But luckily ive seen Jordan at the pinnacle of his career and I have to say that Lebron has a long way to go to be even mentioned in the same breath. Im trying to be objective but I just can't put this kid up there with Mike, at least not yet. I need more, and so far 1 MVP season just does'nt do it for me. I have to say though, Lebrons improvement is rapid. Just 2 years ago he was heavily criticized for his defense and ability to hit shots in clutch situations. Well look at his brilliant development in such a short span. 


The talent,desire and aptitude is there, no question about it. But will he be lucky enough to play with the same type of talent the great ones always had? That's one question im sure only a predetermined course of upcoming events can answer. An answer that may very well define his legacy.


----------



## John

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Can you build a on the ball player along with James? Now Cavs build around him by adding good shooters. Mo Williams is a good scoring shooter. But can you add a Pippen to James? All I saw was, give the ball to James and let him make a decision with the ball.

Jordan in his prime was, give Jordan the ball, let him score the basket for you. The decision does not need to make, Jordan will just get you the points.

James will get teammates shots, that means he will have to rely people to score for him in clutch sometimes. Not a winner to me.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



John said:


> James will get teammates shots, that means he will have to rely people to score for him in clutch sometimes. Not a winner to me.


because jordan never passed the ball to a teammate for a game winning shot?


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LeBron is having the best postseason pretty much ever, if there has been any time to talk about a player overtaking Jordan it's now. Some posters need to stop acting like it's disrespectful to compare the two right now; what's wrong with having a little foresight?


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

^ Seriously. Let's just watch in awe, because we won't see too many LeBron's over the next 50 or 60 years, that's for sure.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*



AK-47 said:


> This thread must live forever!


Agreed.


----------



## southeasy

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Tarence Kinsey(while playing for Memphis aswell) of the current semi-finals Cleveland Cavaliers (benchwarmer), scored 24 pts in a Win over the Lakers in 2006'07, while defending Kobe to a 7-26 shooting outting. both players played 40+ minutes going at eachother

*leaves thread reppin KINSEY*


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

This is why you don't title a thread, "________ owns Kobe Bryant".


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Keep in mind however, that his teammates are literally three stooges esque in their inability to make plays. LeBron is forced to do everything. I wouldn't be surprised if he had to tie Wally's shoes and brush Varejo's teeth every morning. 

Then again, LeBron stunk it up with his knuckler airball and his pass to the front row Magic fans along the baseline down the stretch.

He's going to be amazing at stretches, but he will also have weird, ugly moments of inexplicable stupidity. His potential is awesome, but there is not much written on his resume as of yet, compared to the game's legends. Give him time, and don't get so worked up from one play to the next. 



Nightmute said:


> LeBron is having the best postseason pretty much ever, if there has been any time to talk about a player overtaking Jordan it's now. Some posters need to stop acting like it's disrespectful to compare the two right now; what's wrong with having a little foresight?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LMAO...this thread is quickly turning into hilarious-a-thon

Carry on, might come up with some real quality comedy material.


I wonder if these Laker "fans" talk all this nonsense because they fear that in Cavs Lakers scenario they might lose so they set the terrain for kissin up, but it definitely is funny.

Pathetic and sad, but also funny.


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Why does Lebron get the excuse of "potential" still? Dude's been in the league, what, 6 or 7 years? A player starts hitting his prime around year 5, so Lebron's already entered it. Why is he excused due to age? Milage is more important than age. I don't care if Lebron's 23, he already has milage on him.

Let things happen as they will. If, when all is said and done, Lebro stands head and shoulders above all who came before him, so be it. But stop making excuses for him and talking about his "potential".

Hell, D-Wade has already won a ring, and still has time to win more. No one gives him any excuses to fall back on.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Lebron is so young, hes only 24, barely played, what, 500 games in his career?

He'll play on this level for at least 2000 or more games. So let's not rush any presumptions just yet.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LeBron is so young, but it's not like he isn't making history now. 35, 9 and 7 basically as an average in the playoffs this year. The guy has played 57 playoff games and will probably move into the top 50 all-time leading scorers in the playoffs this year if they get to the finals. He already has more playoff points than guys like Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber, Jason Kidd and others. These are hall of famers in their 30's or retired and he is leapfrogging them at only 24. He does have a ways to go, but he is well on his way.


----------



## Dre

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

It's going to be interesting to see once he gets up to his 12th or so year (he'd be 30?) will it prove to be that he's still in his prime and just got a headstart at 18 or will he start to decline like any player in their 12th year would? 

I'll also like to see how his game ages, what adjustments he's going to make.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Keep in mind however, that his teammates are literally three stooges esque in their inability to make plays. LeBron is forced to do everything. I wouldn't be surprised if he had to tie Wally's shoes and brush Varejo's teeth every morning.
> 
> Then again, LeBron stunk it up with his knuckler airball and his pass to the front row Magic fans along the baseline down the stretch.
> 
> He's going to be amazing at stretches, but he will also have weird, ugly moments of inexplicable stupidity. His potential is awesome, but there is not much written on his resume as of yet, compared to the game's legends. Give him time, and don't get so worked up from one play to the next.


Why do I have to wait til his career is either over or at it's twilight to start comparing him to greats?


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> LMAO...this thread is quickly turning into hilarious-a-thon
> 
> Carry on, might come up with some real quality comedy material.
> 
> 
> I wonder if these Laker "fans" talk all this nonsense because they fear that in Cavs Lakers scenario they might lose so they set the terrain for kissin up, but it definitely is funny.
> 
> Pathetic and sad, but also funny.


You've yet to explain in any way as to why LeBron wont be better then Mike, with any sort of factual or fictional evidence. You just make blanket statements about how awesome your childhood crush was, and how utterly pathetic LeBron is at basketball. Which is pathetic and sad, but not so funny.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Lebron is so young, hes only 24, barely played, what, 500 games in his career?
> 
> He'll play on this level for at least 2000 or more games. So let's not rush any presumptions just yet.


why would he have to play for 2000 or more games? jordan played a combined 1251 games during the regular season and playoffs. lebron needs to play at this level for at least 750 more games than jordan to pass him?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Nah, Lebron doesn't need anything anymore. In your eyes he's solidified, and that pretty much sums it all up.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Nah, Lebron doesn't need anything anymore. In your eyes he's solidified, and that pretty much sums it all up.


if lebron is better right now than jordan ever was, then he doesn't need anything. that right there is enough. of course i said if, and i don't think lebron right now is better than jordan ever was. but he's certainly on a path where he could get there and surpass it.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> if lebron is better right now than jordan ever was, then he doesn't need anything.


But he isn't, not in the mind of someone who's not a excited bandwagon fanboy.

And that's 99,9% of sports media, people who watch and follow the game, worldwide.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> But he isn't, not in the mind of someone who's not a excited bandwagon fanboy.
> 
> And that's 99,9% of sports media, people who watch and follow the game, worldwide.


where did i say that he was? where did anyone say that he was?


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> But he isn't, not in the mind of someone who's not a excited bandwagon fanboy.
> 
> And that's 99,9% of sports media, people who watch and follow the game, worldwide.


Not everyone thinks MJ is untouchable like you though.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Nightmute said:


> Not everyone thinks MJ is untouchable like you though.


By "everyone" you're probably referring to yourself and your 3 e-stooges...


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> But he isn't, not in the mind of someone who's not a excited bandwagon fanboy.
> 
> And that's 99,9% of sports media, people who watch and follow the game, worldwide.


Out of curiosity, what about LeBron's game is leagues behind Jordans? For conversations sake.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> By "everyone" you're probably referring to yourself and your 3 e-stooges...


Yes. That's what I'm referring to.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



GregOden said:


> Out of curiosity, what about LeBron's game is leagues behind Jordans? For conversations sake.


First of all, their "games" are not similar at all.


James plays by his streaky on/off jumpshot, and by sheer force, bullying trough the lane.










See what I'm sayin.


I don't think Jordan was ever able to run into the lane knowing that he'll knock everyone down and get a free throw for it too.

When you 220 you don't expect that. But when you're 6'8 280 - it's a different story.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Doh!


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Nightmute said:


> Not everyone thinks MJ is untouchable like you though.



He ain't been touched yet, has he?

Sho' as hell not by Kobe or Lebron.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Air Jordan 23 said:


> He ain't been touched yet, has he?
> 
> Sho' as hell not by Kobe or Lebron.


That's just like, you're opinion man...


----------



## bball2223

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

At 24 I think it's hard to say MJ was much better than LeBron if he was better at all. LeBron has a long way to go to catch Jordan but at the same stage I think Bron > MJ. MJ wasn't competing for titles at 24.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



bball2223 said:


> At 24 I think it's hard to say MJ was much better than LeBron if he was better at all. LeBron has a long way to go to catch Jordan but at the same stage I think Bron > MJ. MJ wasn't competing for titles at 24.


But MIchael scored 3,000 points and he one an NCAA title and and and he was named player of the year for something...LeBron has one caca at 24, you're such an e-stooge!


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

^ But but Jordan sold more shoes Nightmute! Plus he was, uh, more black and stuff! :laugh:


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

So let me get your logic here straight.

If MJ decided to go full 4 years college, and came in the league 23-24 years old - what then?

LOL

Compare games. Who cares how old they were. If you make it to the pro's, you're a pro, and you start playing pro games.

Age has nothing to do with it.



Nightmute said:


> But MIchael scored 3,000 points and he one an NCAA title and and and he was named player of the year for something...LeBron has one caca at 24, you're such an e-stooge!


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LeBron in his 4th year; swept in the Finals. Jordan in his 4th year; nearly swept in the Semis. 

Damn this is too entertaining. :rofl:


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> So let me get your logic here straight.
> 
> If MJ decided to go full 4 years college, and came in the league 23-24 years old - what then?
> 
> LOL
> 
> Compare games. Who cares how old they were. If you make it to the pro's, you're a pro, and you start playing pro games.
> 
> Age has nothing to do with it.


Just so you know a four year college graduate, who went straight from high school to college, is usually 21-22.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I'm sure DNKO is going to find a way to crab dribble around cap's point and right into a pool of MJ's Jesus Juice.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Nightmute said:


> find a way to crab dribble


I don't crab dribble, I know how to play basketball.


Anyway, nah, none of your points make sense. Trying to level MJ's 6/6 Finals record with LeSterns 0/1 so far.

And Cap...


Let me tell you that pullin those "this is too entertaining" charades on the forum really, really makes you look like an utter weirdo.

Cocoa for coco puffs?


----------



## Brandname

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> I don't crab dribble, I know how to play basketball.


If that were true, wouldn't you know that the crab dribble is a legal play in basketball that's taught in basketball camps?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Brandname said:


> If that were true, wouldn't you know that the crab dribble is a legal play in basketball that's taught in basketball camps?


You know what crab dribble I was talking about. Only one player made the move legendary.


----------



## Brandname

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

What he did wasn't a crab dribble. He does the crab dribble sometimes, but the play in question was a travel of course (although it was actually closer than a lot of people realized, but I think that was gone into in great detail on TrueHoop if you're interested).


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Brandname said:


> ...if you're interested).


He isn't.


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> I don't crab dribble, I know how to play basketball.
> 
> 
> Anyway, nah, none of your points make sense. Trying to level MJ's 6/6 Finals record with LeSterns 0/1 so far.
> 
> And Cap...
> 
> 
> Let me tell you that pullin those "this is too entertaining" charades on the forum really, really makes you look like an utter weirdo.
> 
> Cocoa for coco puffs?


LeBron is only 0/1 in the finals because the East was SO weak that year that he managed to make the finals with an inferior team. Put some good teams in the East and he wouldn't have made the finals and he would be at age 24 having never been to the finals, JUST LIKE JORDAN WAS. Conversely, take away all the good teams in the East, and Jordan might have made the finals in the late 80s and been beaten hard once he got there too. You cant penalize LeBron for the fact that his team got beaten in the finals by a WAY superior team after making their way through a weak conference. He wasnt expected to win.

Your obsession with someones record in the finals is just silly and stupid. Jordan was not even close to making the finals yet when he was LeBron's age. At the age at which LeBron was going to the finals and losing, Jordan still hadn't made it out of the first round, and wouldnt make it out of the first round for another 2 years.


----------



## P-Rez25

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Diable said:


> He's accomplished a lot so far,but you have to remember that Jordan's prime encompassed his entire career with the Bulls.He did his thing for a very long time.Lebron has the pace right now,but he's got miles to go before he's home.


that and the fact that hes 6'8 270+, there is no guarantee that he will stay healthy enough to rack up all of MJs accolades. for all we know he could be the next Penny Hardaway...


----------



## P-Rez25

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



bball2223 said:


> At 24 I think it's hard to say MJ was much better than LeBron if he was better at all. LeBron has a long way to go to catch Jordan but at the same stage I think Bron > MJ. MJ wasn't competing for titles at 24.


MJ wasnt playin against a watered down Eastern Conference either...


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I have now realised that Lebron will never pass Jordan. Period. I think Lebron James will wear down quickly. I don't think he will last as the best player in the league into his mid-30's like Jordan. I think by 30 you'll see him losing a step or two (like Kobe), but since his game is so dependent on him blowing by people he won't be as effective. Given that I don't think he'll be able to pass Jordan. He's already 24 and played 6/7 years in the league. His peak will be done by 30, and he has no rings or finals MVP's yet. 

Some one please start a new thread titld "I have now realised that Lebron will never pass Jordan". Nothing is guaranteed. People were crowning him this year and see how that turned out. That's why I was saying that wait until he has at least 1 or 2 titles to start even thinking he might get 3 or 4 more. With him not winning this year I have now realised he will never pass Jordan.


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



P-Rez25 said:


> MJ wasnt playin against a watered down Eastern Conference either...



Yup, cats tend to overlook that fact.

Back in the late 80's/early 90's, MJ's Bulls had to contend with Detroit, Boston, Atlanta, Cleveland, Philadelphia, New York, and Milwaukee.

Who does Lebron have to contend with in the East today? Just Boston and Orlando. Maybe Miami. And in the West, it's really the L.A., and maybe Denver and Houston, if both teams can build up on what they did this year. San Antonio is done, and Dallas and New Orleans fell off.

Back in the day, in the West there was L.A., Phoenix, Portland, San Antonio, Dallas, Houston, and Seattle.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

MJ isn't even a person anymore. He's just this idea. No one can pass MJ at this point, because he's not even real anymore.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

That's true. MJ is a GOD. Even Larry Legend said it.


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> MJ isn't even a person anymore. He's just this idea. No one can pass MJ at this point, because he's not even real anymore.



No, he has become Legendary, grasshopper.

:meditate:


----------



## Eternal

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Cap said:


> LeBron in his 4th year; swept in the Finals. Jordan in his 4th year; nearly swept in the Semis.
> 
> Damn this is too entertaining. :rofl:


Does it really matter who is getting swept where? Bottom line is neither of them won the Finals in their 4th year.


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> MJ isn't even a person anymore. He's just this idea. No one can pass MJ at this point, because he's not even real anymore.


You can pass MJ, but it will require 6 rings, multiple MVP's, freakish 32, 8 and 8 over a season type-of stats, revolutionizing the idea of sports marketing, and changing the way the world thinks about the game.

The problem is that people are looking to those following in his footsteps for the next MJ. You'll never shatter and rebuild something by following someone else's template. The "Next MJ" is someone who will come from left field and do things we don't expect. He's not wearing number 23 and practicing his fadeaway jumper. He might be something weird like a Player-Coach or Player-Owner or something like who builds his own team and remakes the league. Whatever he is. He is an unknown unknown. Just like Michael Jordan and what he was able to achieve was to fans in the 70's.


----------



## Dre

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lakeshows said:


> I have now realised that Lebron will never pass Jordan. Period. I think Lebron James will wear down quickly. I don't think he will last as the best player in the league into his mid-30's like Jordan. I think by 30 you'll see him losing a step or two (like Kobe), *but since his game is so dependent on him blowing by people he won't be as effective. * Given that I don't think he'll be able to pass Jordan. He's already 24 and played 6/7 years in the league. His peak will be done by 30, and he has no rings or finals MVP's yet.
> 
> Some one please start a new thread titld "I have now realised that Lebron will never pass Jordan". Nothing is guaranteed. People were crowning him this year and see how that turned out. That's why I was saying that wait until he has at least 1 or 2 titles to start even thinking he might get 3 or 4 more. With him not winning this year I have now realised he will never pass Jordan.


Who's to say he can't adjust his game?


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Dre™ said:


> Who's to say he can't adjust his game?


I don't really see him becoming a deadly jumpshooter like Jordan at the end of his career, or even like Kobe is right now. I could see him becoming more of a play-maker ala Magic Johnson (who didn't have lights out speed), but I don't think that's gonna win you 5,6,7 rings.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lakeshows said:


> I don't really see him becoming a deadly jumpshooter like Jordan at the end of his career, or even like Kobe is right now. I could see him becoming more of a play-maker ala Magic Johnson (who didn't have lights out speed), but I don't think that's gonna win you 5,6,7 rings.


His mid-range looked pretty good in the playoffs. And his 3 point shot is always improving. He's also dominant in the post, if he has a coach that ever runs the offense through him in the post.


----------



## bballlife

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

His post game is quickly evolving.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> MJ isn't even a person anymore. He's just this idea. No one can pass MJ at this point, because he's not even real anymore.


He was a better ball player than Lebron. Get over it.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Eternal said:


> Does it really matter who is getting swept where? Bottom line is neither of them won the Finals in their 4th year.


Yeah.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



EGarrett said:


> You can pass MJ, but it will require 6 rings, multiple MVP's, freakish 32, 8 and 8 over a season type-of stats, revolutionizing the idea of sports marketing, and changing the way the world thinks about the game.
> 
> The problem is that people are looking to those following in his footsteps for the next MJ. You'll never shatter and rebuild something by following someone else's template. The "Next MJ" is someone who will come from left field and do things we don't expect. He's not wearing number 23 and practicing his fadeaway jumper. He might be something weird like a Player-Coach or Player-Owner or something like who builds his own team and remakes the league. Whatever he is. He is an unknown unknown. Just like Michael Jordan and what he was able to achieve was to fans in the 70's.



You mean 80's/90's, right?

But yeah, what EGarrett said.

When MJ came on the scene, lots of folks wanted to compare him to Dr. J., which I could understand. But MJ forged his own trail and took things to another level.


----------



## John

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> That's true. MJ is a GOD. Even Larry Legend said it.


LMAO


----------



## John

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> His mid-range looked pretty good in the playoffs. And his 3 point shot is always improving. He's also dominant in the post, if he has a coach that ever runs the offense through him in the post.


A guard or forward will never be able to draw Deep double teams like the way your Center and PF can. While it is effective going to the block, you will never win a ring by puting your SF in the post. Jordan was mastered at the lowpost but why wasn't he being post up consistently in the playoffs in 96/97/98? Never WORK

What mid range game? He is getting that shot because of a combination of his first step and lack of ability to shoot. When he loses a step, you can see his defenders will play him closer, is he Kobe Byrant in terms of shooting ability? like I said in the other thread, he is a "that's it".

I would say Boston would still comepete for next 2 weeks, Magic if they can find a replacement for Hedo, they will compete for 2-3 years. James will be 28 by end, but Cavs need to find a replacement for Big Z as he will be about to retired. 

I wish NBA will still produce quality draft players just to make sure he doesnt have a chance.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Six years in.

0 championships.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Six years in.
> 
> 0 championships.


Oh yeah?


Lebron stats 18 years old
20.9 5.5 5.9 1.6 0.7

Jordan's stats 18 years old
0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0


James was clearly way better from the start. You can see how better he was than MJ even when they were 18.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Six years in.
> 
> 0 championships.


championships are basically everything in regards to judging who the best team is.

championships also are basically nothing in determining who the best player is.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

That's right you tell em!


----------



## HKF

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Six years in.
> 
> 0 championships.


Six years into Mike's career he didn't have a title either.

1984-85
1985-86
1986-87
1987-88
1988-89
1989-90

It wasn't until year 7 when he won his title.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers weren't the same by the time MJ won his first championship, who sees LeBron and the Cavs' winning a championship next year when they're are still better teams in Boston, LA, and Orlando? I know I don't.

Regardless winning a championship by his 7th year doesn't mean diddly squat when you're talking about who's better (even tho LeBron doesn't hold a lit candle to MJ), but I don't see LeBron winning a championship next year, either.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



R-Star said:


> He was a better ball player than Lebron. Get over it.


No he wasn't.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Jordan hate is strong here, I like it, Don Quixote efforts are shown.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Nightmute said:


> No he wasn't.


Why not ?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Arguing with Cap (aka Nightmute) is pointless.

In fact, his opinions are so irrelevant and proven wrong on so many levels, that I actually AGREE with him saying that LeGoat is better and yadda yadda yadda.

That's like walking into asylum and arguing with the people there that the world isn't round.

It's flat to them, so be it. Who cares.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> championships are basically everything in regards to judging who the best team is.
> 
> *championships also are basically nothing in determining who the best player is.*


I beg to differ.

When talking about the greatest players ever to play (and that's the company Lebron's getting if one is to compare him with the likes of Michael Jordan and such) championships won DO matter.

Take Kobe Bryant, for instance: he could eventually drop some straight 30-5-5 seasons, but if he doean't win a championship, very few people will name him as Duncan's or Shaq's equal.

Same with Lebron: stats are great. But if you don't win it all, your reputation will suffer (aka "The Wilt Chamberlain Rule").

Lebron James is the best player in the NBA right now. But what does THAT really mean?


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



HKF said:


> Six years into Mike's career he didn't have a title either.
> 
> 1984-85
> 1985-86
> 1986-87
> 1987-88
> 1988-89
> 1989-90
> 
> It wasn't until year 7 when he won his title.


Yes, i know.

But Lebron James won't win a champioship in his 7th year. Nor in his 8th (when he skips town).

Hmmm... I'm thinking: what if D-Ho and the Magic win it all this year? I mean, D-Ho is one year younger than Lebron, isn't he? what would that do (if anything) to the chances of Lebron passing Jordan?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Yes, i know.
> 
> But Lebron James won't win a champioship in his 7th year. Nor in his 8th (when he skips town).
> 
> Hmmm... I'm thinking: what if D-Ho and the Magic win it all this year? I mean, D-Ho is one year younger than Lebron, isn't he? what would that do (if anything) to the chances of Lebron passing Jordan?


If Kevin Garnett comes back healthy, and no doubt he will be super motivated, and add to the Boston Celtics making some trades and adding some guys in the off season. I would bet on them coming out of the East. Also the Rockets if TMAC is healthy and Yao would have a great chance coming out of the West. Next year IMO will be even more competitive. 

And I know Gasp!! Dwight Howard is younger than LeBron James, and may win a title before him. I'm sure the sky is falling right now for most LeBron/Cavs fans. They used that LeBron is the youngest stick for what seems forever and a day now.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> I beg to differ.
> 
> When talking about the greatest players ever to play (and that's the company Lebron's getting if one is to compare him with the likes of Michael Jordan and such) championships won DO matter.
> 
> Take Kobe Bryant, for instance: he could eventually drop some straight 30-5-5 seasons, but if he doean't win a championship, very few people will name him as Duncan's or Shaq's equal.
> 
> Same with Lebron: stats are great. But if you don't win it all, your reputation will suffer (aka "The Wilt Chamberlain Rule").


and that's just stupid. you aren't the best player because your team wins championships. your team has a better chance to win championships because you are the best player.

championships are nice to have and are the goal for every player and team, but they don't tell you much at all about an individual player. i mean in this post you dismiss kobe's past championships completely. and kobe not being duncan or shaq's equal has nothing to do with championships. both guys were consistently better players than kobe throughout their careers.



> Lebron James is the best player in the NBA right now. But what does THAT really mean?


it means he's the best player. what does winning a championship really mean? just that you were on the best team.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Rocketeer, Cap and nightmute.

I remembered those 3 names as most desperate, contradictory posters on this forum.


You guys would lie your way out of anything, are you salesmen? 


Because the way you guys are twisting everyones words and points and then fitting those in your own points is ridiculous now.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Rocketeer, Cap and nightmute.
> 
> I remembered those 3 names as most desperate, contradictory posters on this forum.
> 
> 
> You guys would lie your way out of anything, are you salesmen?
> 
> 
> Because the way you guys are twisting everyones words and points and then fitting those in your own points is ridiculous now.


you are the guy constantly twisting everyone's words so you can take what they say as some sort of slight to jordan.

i take it that you disagree that an nba championship is a team award and not an individual one?


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> and that's just stupid. you aren't the best player because your team wins championships. your team has a better chance to win championships because you are the best player.
> 
> championships are nice to have and are the goal for every player and team, but they don't tell you much at all about an individual player. i mean in this post you dismiss kobe's past championships completely. and kobe not being duncan or shaq's equal has nothing to do with championships. both guys were consistently better players than kobe throughout their careers.
> 
> 
> it means he's the best player. what does winning a championship really mean? just that you were on the best team.


I'm telling it like it is, young grasshopper.

Why do you think Jordan had to win at least 3 titles to be considered better/equal than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson? Do you honestly think that a player such as Michael, gone to average something like 30-6-6 for a career, with NO championships, would be regarded as an all-time Top-5 player? Are you nuts?

I know ESPN sucks, but i've read a line somewhere that said something the likes of "For a player of Kobe Bryan's stature, only titles matters". 

Again, wether you like it or not, a big measuring stick for comparing players is championships won. The criteria can be unjust, but it's what it is. If not, Bill Russell would be miles apart of the All-Time Top 10 players list.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> and that's just stupid. you aren't the best player because your team wins championships. your team has a better chance to win championships because you are the best player.
> 
> championships are nice to have and are the goal for every player and team, but they don't tell you much at all about an individual player. i mean in this post you dismiss kobe's past championships completely. and kobe not being duncan or shaq's equal has nothing to do with championships. both guys were consistently better players than kobe throughout their careers.
> 
> 
> it means he's the best player. what does winning a championship really mean? just that you were on the best team.


Yet the man of all this contention LeBron James, said himself that Championships are more important to the resume than individual accolades.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> I'm telling it like it is, young grasshopper.
> 
> Why do you think Jordan had to win at least 3 titles to be considered better/equal than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson? Do you honestly think that a player such as Michael, gone to average something like 30-6-6 for a career, with NO championships, would be regarded as an all-time Top-5 player? Are you nuts?
> 
> I know ESPN sucks, but i've read a line somewhere that said something the likes of "For a player of Kobe Bryan's stature, only titles matters".
> 
> Again, wether you like it or not, a big measuring stick for comparing players is championships won. The criteria can be unjust, but it's what it is. If not, Bill Russell would be miles apart of the All-Time Top 10 players list.


no, i'm telling it like it is. winning championships means almost nothing as far as being the best player. it doesn't matter what it takes for the media to consider someone the best. that is pointless. what matters is who is actually the best.

if jordan had the exact career that he had except that instead of winning 6 championships his tremendous efforts failed to beat superior teams, he'd still be the exact same player that he was. he wouldn't be any lesser of a player, he just would have never played on the best team in the league in any given year. and yes, the media would be all over that saying that jordan couldn't win the big one and all the other ridiculous stuff they like to talk about. that's all meaningless. i couldn't care less what the sports media proclaims to be the truth. they just finally realized that lebron plays defense. they just in the past couple of years have finally decided to accept yao ming as a great player and stop pretending he's "soft". they are consistently wrong and slow to acknowledge things as they happen. who cares what they think?


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Yet the man of all this contention LeBron James, said himself that Championships are more important to the resume than individual accolades.


I think they make the great player have a great resume. But I don't think they make an average player a great player by being on their resume. Like I don't think Chauncy Billups is one of the top 3 players in the NBA, even though he has a title. Nor do I think Brian Scalabrine is an all-star because he has one.

But it does help Kobe and Wade to have titles already. And if Dwight gets one, it will help how he is regarded. Though if Kobe loses another finals with the team he's got, that giant shaq sized asterisk on his championships just gets bigger and bigger. Same with DWade.

So far for how great Wade, Lebron, and Kobe are--not a one of them has won a title without the Diesel.

It's not an insignificant point, when you consider that last year the Lakers got bossed in the paint, and this year, Dwight Howard destroyed the Cavs.

Am I correct in saying that Jordan is still the only perimeter star player in the modern era to win a title without an all-star possibly hall of fame bound big man? (and even then Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman were not bad, and Scottie Pippen helped too).


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Yet the man of all this contention LeBron James, said himself that Championships are more important to the resume than individual accolades.


because the ultimate goal(or at least what should be the ultimate goal) of every player going into every season is to win the championship. that is what's most important. but in a 5 on 5 game, counting championships doesn't tell you who the better player is and having a championship is not a requirement to be the best.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> I think they make the great player have a great resume. But I don't think they make an average player a great player by being on their resume. Like I don't think Chauncy Billups is one of the top 3 players in the NBA, even though he has a title. Nor do I think Brian Scalabrine is an all-star because he has one.
> 
> But it does help Kobe and Wade to have titles already. And if Dwight gets one, it will help how he is regarded. Though if Kobe loses another finals with the team he's got, that giant shaq sized asterisk on his championships just gets bigger and bigger. Same with DWade.
> 
> So far for how great Wade, Lebron, and Kobe are--not a one of them has won a title without the Diesel.
> 
> It's not an insignificant point, when you consider that last year the Lakers got bossed in the paint, and this year, Dwight Howard destroyed the Cavs.
> 
> Am I correct in saying that Jordan is still the only perimeter star player in the modern era to win a title without an all-star possibly hall of fame bound big man? (and even then Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman were not bad, and Scottie Pippen helped too).


Great post. I agree on all counts.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> if jordan had the exact career that he had except that instead of winning 6 championships his tremendous efforts failed to beat superior teams, he'd still be the exact same player that he was.


This makes no sense whatsoever.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> This makes no sense whatsoever.


your lack of comprehension skills aren't my problem.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Why not ?


You shouldn't ask questions you don't want to know the answer to.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Rocketeer, Cap and nightmute.
> 
> I remembered those 3 names as most desperate, contradictory posters on this forum.
> 
> 
> You guys would lie your way out of anything, are you salesmen?
> 
> 
> Because the way you guys are twisting everyones words and points and then fitting those in your own points is ridiculous now.


How cute I made an impression on you.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> your lack of comprehension skills aren't my problem.


No, you're tilting at windmills.

Saying that Jordan would be accomplished as today if he never won 1 single championship but had his numbers is your way of saying;

"I will remain hanging on James' scrotum even if he never wins a title in his career because I'm obsessed with stats (and I really hate MJ)".


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Yet the man of all this contention LeBron James, said himself that Championships are more important to the resume than individual accolades.


What did you expect him to say? I don't know if he meant it or not, but I do know that players feed the media whatever they want to hear majority of the time.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



futuristxen said:


> I think they make the great player have a great resume. But I don't think they make an average player a great player by being on their resume. Like I don't think Chauncy Billups is one of the top 3 players in the NBA, even though he has a title. Nor do I think Brian Scalabrine is an all-star because he has one.
> 
> But it does help Kobe and Wade to have titles already. And if Dwight gets one, it will help how he is regarded. Though if Kobe loses another finals with the team he's got, that giant shaq sized asterisk on his championships just gets bigger and bigger. Same with DWade.
> 
> So far for how great Wade, Lebron, and Kobe are--not a one of them has won a title without the Diesel.
> 
> It's not an insignificant point, when you consider that last year the Lakers got bossed in the paint, and this year, Dwight Howard destroyed the Cavs.
> 
> Am I correct in saying that Jordan is still the only perimeter star player in the modern era to win a title without an all-star possibly hall of fame bound big man? (and even then Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman were not bad, and Scottie Pippen helped too).


I agree with what your saying. It definitely hurts their legacy in the eyes of the majority.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> No, you're tilting at windmills.
> 
> Saying that Jordan would be accomplished as today if he never won 1 single championship but had his numbers is your way of saying;
> 
> "I will remain hanging on James' scrotum even if he never wins a title in his career because I'm obsessed with stats (and I really hate MJ)".


and there you go again with your twisting of words.

what i'm saying has nothing to do with lebron james and nothing to do with michael jordan(though i did use him as an example). championships don't make great players. great players give their team a better chance to win championships(because great teams generally contain great players).

and no, jordan wouldn't be as accomplished. nba championships are an accomplishment that jordan certainly helped achieve. but he would be just as good of a player as he was without any rings. rings don't make the player. players make the teams who then win the rings.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Whatever.

I would love to hear people commenting today on Shaq if he never won any rings. 25 10 3, a lot of dunks, 60% shot, brick free throws and thats it.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> This makes no sense whatsoever.


Sure it does. Say we were both NBA players, and our posting skills translated into basketball skills. I am an NBA superstar and your an NBA floor mopper. The team you mop floors for wins a championship and mine doesn't, at the end of the day I'm still an all time great ball player while you just mop up sweat.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> no, i'm telling it like it is. winning championships means almost nothing as far as being the best player. it doesn't matter what it takes for the media to consider someone the best. that is pointless. what matters is who is actually the best.
> 
> if jordan had the exact career that he had except that instead of winning 6 championships his tremendous efforts failed to beat superior teams, he'd still be the exact same player that he was. he wouldn't be any lesser of a player, he just would have never played on the best team in the league in any given year. and yes, the media would be all over that saying that jordan couldn't win the big one and all the other ridiculous stuff they like to talk about. that's all meaningless. i couldn't care less what the sports media proclaims to be the truth. they just finally realized that lebron plays defense. they just in the past couple of years have finally decided to accept yao ming as a great player and stop pretending he's "soft". they are consistently wrong and slow to acknowledge things as they happen. who cares what they think?


It's all fine and dandy, but that's not the way one is accostumed to evakluate players.
I'm not sayng that you are wrong, and that mainstream opinion makers are right.
But if you don't think championshis won are favoured into the equation, you are being naive.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Nightmute said:


> I am an NBA superstar and your an NBA floor mopper. The team you mop floors for wins a championship and mine doesn't, at the end of the day I'm still an all time great ball player while you just mop up sweat.












I can't even address this utter geekness...I just can't. Good luck to you. You obviously need it in large quantities.


On the subject of accomplishments and rings, I still don't understand how in the hell you people can lie to yourselves that much.

If a team wins all 82 games and loses in the Finals or doesn't even get there - it's not a GREAT season - it's a damn DISAPPOINTMENT.


If a player scores 100 points a game but his team doesn't win anything with it - it's a disappointment.


To put it short










There.



PS

Congrats to Lebron making history.


Only 2 teams in the history of the league had MVP's on their roster and won 60+ games and didn't win the title.

He joined Nowitzki's club. 

Great.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



PauloCatarino said:


> It's all fine and dandy, but that's not the way one is accostumed to evakluate players.
> I'm not sayng that you are wrong, and that mainstream opinion makers are right.
> But if you don't think championshis won are favoured into the equation, you are being naive.


Yeah they do factor into the equation, no denying that. They just aren't the only factor, like most of mainstream media makes them out to be.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Nightmute said:


> You shouldn't ask questions you don't want to know the answer to.


On the contrary, I do want to know. So please explain.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I have the same case that posters like Cap, Roketeer, and kflo have made. You argued around there points continuously or just flat out ignored them. But if you want, I'll summarize for you. LeBron has shown to either be statistically equivalent or greater than MJ while also maintaining a similar success rate in terms of team wins(comparing them at similar junctions in there careers.) LeBron has played well enough in his career thus far to earn the comparison and to say MJ is a clear cut better player is foolish.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Nightmute said:


> I have the same case that posters like Cap, Roketeer, and kflo have made. You argued around there points continuously or just flat out ignored them. But if you want, I'll summarize for you. LeBron has shown to either be statistically equivalent or greater than MJ while also maintaining a similar success rate in terms of team wins(comparing them at similar junctions in there careers.) LeBron has played well enough in his career thus far to earn the comparison and to say MJ is a clear cut better player is foolish.


But you said LeBron was better, not that he was comparable at this juncture in his career. Which I don't think anyone is denying, anyone is comparable early on in their careers, it's going to be how LBJ finishes his career wether or not he will crack the top 5 ever. Right now I still consider Larry Bird a better SF than LeBron James historically.


----------



## DaRizzle

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

f f f failing


----------



## Air Jordan 23

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Larry Bird's a better SF than Lebron easily. Anyone arguing otherwise seriously has no knowlege of basketball or its history.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Air Jordan 23 said:


> Larry Bird's a better SF than Lebron easily. Anyone arguing otherwise seriously has no knowlege of basketball or its history.


how he stacks up historically, and how he stacks up in terms of his level of play are 2 different things. how do you think his level of play stacks up with bird?


----------



## HB

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I dont think the loss changes anything. He's only 24. Every successful person fails a couple of times. The sting will only motivate Bron to do better.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

the cavs will get some stud co-star, and then everyone will talk about how lebron learned to trust his teammates.


----------



## f22egl

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Air Jordan 23 said:


> Larry Bird's a better SF than Lebron easily. Anyone arguing otherwise seriously has no knowlege of basketball or its history.


Let me know when LeBron has teammates like Kevin McHale, Danny Ainge, Robert Parrish, Dennis Johnson, and Bill Walton.


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> and there you go again with your twisting of words.
> 
> what i'm saying has nothing to do with lebron james and nothing to do with michael jordan(though i did use him as an example). championships don't make great players. great players give their team a better chance to win championships(because great teams generally contain great players).
> 
> and no, jordan wouldn't be as accomplished. nba championships are an accomplishment that jordan certainly helped achieve. but he would be just as good of a player as he was without any rings. rings don't make the player. players make the teams who then win the rings.


Let me break it down for you:

Like you said if Jordan didn't win 6 championships he would not be as accomplished as he is. He would not have achieved as much as the top 5/10 players if he didn't win multiple rings. 

Great players have great achievements. If didn't achieve those things, he wouldn't have been considered great like the top 5/10 players in history.

For Lebron to be anywhere in the same stratosphere as MJ he has to have some of those same accomplishments. For him to lose this year after the MVP year he had and the 66 win team that he had doesn't make it look good for next year (much less the next few years) either. People were already crowning him multiple, even several, championships. As we can see nothing is guaranteed.

If Lebron doesn't have those achievements that Jordan does (or come close) he will not be considered the GOAT. Great players have great accomplishments. Lebron doesn't have those types of accomplishments to warrant discussion with the GOAT.

Understand?


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

As I have said many times before, an endless string of players have been compared to MJ. And none of them have lived up to the hype. The reason so many are riding on LeBron's jock is because he's being shoved down our throats 24/7 by the corporate media. If *ABCESPNDISNEYPEPSICOKEGATORADEMOUNTAINDEW* brainwashed us to believe that George Costanza were the second coming, about half this board would buy that lie too.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

the point is that jordan was basically the same player in '88, '89, '90, that he was in '91. and he would have kept losing if he was going against the same competition with the same teammates. his greatness put his teams in a position to fill around him, and stacked the odds towards success. but ultimately his success was also dependent on things outside his control. lebron will likely find himself in the right situation at some point, because his greatness makes it easier to fit the pieces around him, but it's not a given. yes, ultimately not winning, or even not winning enough, will cost lebron, or anyone. but it doesn't automatically mean they're not as good a player as the winner. 

i'm in the jordan goat camp, and his circumstances put him in the perfect position to demonstrate how great he was. there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



f22egl said:


> Let me know when LeBron has teammates like Kevin McHale, Danny Ainge, Robert Parrish, Dennis Johnson, and Bill Walton.


Or Pippen, or Rodman, or Grant, etc.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> As I have said many times before, an endless string of players have been compared to MJ. And none of them have lived up to the hype. The reason so many are riding on LeBron's jock is because he's being shoved down our throats 24/7 by the corporate media. If *ABCESPNDISNEYPEPSICOKEGATORADEMOUNTAINDEW* brainwashed us to believe that George Costanza were the second coming, about half this board would buy that lie too.


just be happy jordan is the constant standard. very few have actually been held up as anything remotely resembling a threat to the jordan "throne". kobe and lebron are the only ones, and both have been caveated. anyone who's not impressed with lebron's play, who can't see greatness in his performances, is really seeing something most aren't seeing. most riding lebron are doing so based on his actual level of play.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Agreed. LeBron either needs to a) find a lieutenant, an outstanding no. 2, as Jordan did (or as Krause did actually), or b) become a no. 2 and lieutenant himself. He can't do it on his own, however magnificent he's been in trying. Acquiring a power forward who doesn't trip over his own two feet like Varejao does wouldn't hurt either. 



kflo said:


> the point is that jordan was basically the same player in '88, '89, '90, that he was in '91. and he would have kept losing if he was going against the same competition with the same teammates. his greatness put his teams in a position to fill around him, and stacked the odds towards success. but ultimately his success was also dependent on things outside his control. lebron will likely find himself in the right situation at some point, because his greatness makes it easier to fit the pieces around him, but it's not a given.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LeBron's a stud on the floor, no doubt, at least for the first 46 minutes of every ball game. But there are some significant differences between the two:

1. LeBron's Tim Hardaway-esque ugly knuckler jumper. He's such a great athlete, he makes many of them despite his ugly form, but it's still cringe worthy.

2. LeBron's basketball IQ drops 30-50 points in the last minute of regulation. He might do something brilliant, but he is equally apt to do something so bone headed, it makes you want to drop all MJ comparisons immediately. Remember, Jordan was dropping game winners as a frosh. 

3. LeBron's got 60+ lbs. on a 24 year old Jordan, if not more. Jordan's game was based on game. LeBron's game is based as much on mack truck torque as much as anything. They should call him LeBrawn James. 

I think the kid's magnificent, but let's all climb back on his jock when he's got rings lining both hands. 



kflo said:


> just be happy jordan is the constant standard. very few have actually been held up as anything remotely resembling a threat to the jordan "throne". kobe and lebron are the only ones, and both have been caveated. anyone who's not impressed with lebron's play, who can't see greatness in his performances, is really seeing something most aren't seeing. most riding lebron are doing so based on his actual level of play.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

seriously, you would think that now that there are actually stats tracking what guys do in late and close situations, the lebron isn't clutch stuff would go away. but his numbers, and team success, in closing out games has been pretty much unmatched over the last few years.


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## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Just watch what a player does in the last minute or two of close playoff games. In the Magic series, he was unimpressive. The reason people went nuts when LeBrawn made a game winner against the Magic is because this is a new situation for LeBron. It was a rite of pasage. ESPN went nuts. Quite frankly, so did LeBron. It kept the series alive, and prevented them from getting swept. But LeBron doesn't have many moments like that in the playoffs. Or even in regular season games. Certainly not to the degree that Jordan did, even at the tender age of 24.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> the point is that jordan was basically the same player in '88, '89, '90, that he was in '91. and he would have kept losing if he was going against the same competition with the same teammates. his greatness put his teams in a position to fill around him, and stacked the odds towards success. but ultimately his success was also dependent on things outside his control. lebron will likely find himself in the right situation at some point, because his greatness makes it easier to fit the pieces around him, but it's not a given. yes, ultimately not winning, or even not winning enough, will cost lebron, or anyone. but it doesn't automatically mean they're not as good a player as the winner.


hey, someone actually understands what i'm saying.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Just watch what a player does in the last minute or two of close playoff games. In the Magic series, he was unimpressive. The reason people went nuts when LeBrawn made a game winner against the Magic is because this is a new situation for LeBron. It was a rite of pasage. ESPN went nuts. Quite frankly, so did LeBron. It kept the series alive, and prevented them from getting swept. But LeBron doesn't have many moments like that in the playoffs. Or even in regular season games. Certainly not to the degree that Jordan did, even at the tender age of 24.


so the numbers suggesting lebron is a great clutch player are wrong?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lakeshows said:


> Like you said if Jordan didn't win 6 championships he would not be as accomplished as he is. He would not have achieved as much as the top 5/10 players if he didn't win multiple rings.


being more accomplished does not equal being a better player. if jordan didn't win multiple rings but played at the same level he did when he did win those rings he'd still be the best player ever.



> Great players have great achievements. If didn't achieve those things, he wouldn't have been considered great like the top 5/10 players in history.


great players have great individual achievements. great teams have great team achievements. it's easier to build a great team around a great player, so generally those will end up overlapping but it's not always the case.



> For Lebron to be anywhere in the same stratosphere as MJ he has to have some of those same accomplishments. For him to lose this year after the MVP year he had and the 66 win team that he had doesn't make it look good for next year (much less the next few years) either. People were already crowning him multiple, even several, championships. As we can see nothing is guaranteed.


lebron doesn't need any achievements to be in the same stratosphere as jordan. all he needs is his play on the court. as he's already come pretty damn close as far as a single season is concerned. now he just has to sustain or continue to improve upon this play.



> If Lebron doesn't have those achievements that Jordan does (or come close) he will not be considered the GOAT. Great players have great accomplishments. Lebron doesn't have those types of accomplishments to warrant discussion with the GOAT.
> 
> Understand?


lebron doesn't need achievements to be the GOAT. he just has to be the GOAT to be the GOAT. for espn to recognize him as the GOAT, sure he needs achievements but who cares?

and since lebron's career is far from over and he's playing at a level similar to jordan, yes he deserves to be in this discussion.

understand?


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Dude, that is just asinine. There is no statistic "proving" a player is clutch or not. All you have to do is watch playoff games at crunch time to see who steps up and who doesn't. Here are some players who step up:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Bird 
4. Isaiah
5. Chauncey
6. Horry
7. Kobe
8. Reggie

There have been other players to step up to make game winners in the playoffs (Paxson, Kerr, Fish, Mario Elie, among others).

I don't think LeBron belongs on the short list. Where are LeBron's postseason game winners? Series winning shots? Championship winning shots? Ah, he doesn't have any championships. Oops. 



rocketeer said:


> so the numbers suggesting lebron is a great clutch player are wrong?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Dude, that is just asinine. There is no statistic "proving" a player is clutch or not.


there are stats that show how well players perform in the clutch.



> All you have to do is watch playoff games at crunch time to see who steps up and who doesn't.


you're telling me that lebron doesn't step up in crunch time?



> I don't think LeBron belongs on the short list. Where are LeBron's postseason game winners? Series winning shots? Championship winning shots? Ah, he doesn't have any championships. Oops.


is this a serious question? where are lebron's postseason game winners?


----------



## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I'm not surprised the Cavs lost. I've been saying on this thread I believe a bunch of times how the Cavs supporting cast is completely inferior to anything Jordan had when he won championships. 

Mo Williams was the second best player on that team. He was solely a spot up shooter who could pass some. His defense is not good. He was a brick layer in the playoffs. He was really no better than BJ Armstrong or John Paxson to be honest.

Essentially, to me, the problem the Cavs had against the Magic was that no one but LeBron could command a double team. Not Z. Not Mo. Not West. These guys aren't terrible players, but they are role players. That's it. On the other hand, Howard, Hedo, and Rashard all required double teams. This made the Magic offense tick. LeBron can't do everything every play (except the 4th quarter of game 5), so someone else needs to command double teams to break down the defense sometimes. They didn't have that. To make matters worse, the role players were bricking the open shots LeBron did give them when he was double teamed.

THAT is why the Cavs lost. LeBron played brilliantly. His playoff PER is still the 2nd best ever for a playoff season behind only Hakeem in only a one round playoff foray. Simply put, though, the Cavs team is terrible offensively without LeBron, especially when Mo and Z are bricking everything like they were for most of the series. The Cavs bigs have NO post game. The shooters: Mo, Z, West, Gibson, Pavlovic, and Wally; collectively stunk it up in the playoffs. They have no one besides LeBron that can draw a double team and pass out to create offense. This worked out okay in the regular season as the shooters shot well. But they didn't in the playoffs. What was left was a team with offensive big men that could be sagged off of easily, allowing easier guarding of shooters who were missing everything anyways.

So offensively, the Cavs were absymal minus LeBron. No one can create anything off the dribble or in the post, and the shooters stunk. Defensively, they were a good team in the regular season. However, the Magic were a bad matchup for their defense due to the size and speed of Rashard and Hedo. As such, their great defense was actually pedestrian.

Give LeBron a Scottie Pippen and that team easily beats the Magic. It IS about teammates. I expressed amazement in this thread that the Cavs won 66 games this year. The team actually is just not very good, so 66 wins was amazing. Just because they got 66 wins doesnt mean the supporting cast around LeBron was great. It is just a credit to LeBron himself that he took that crew to 66 wins in the first place. It shouldn't be used against him to prove he squandered a chance to win a title with a great team.


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Just watch what a player does in the last minute or two of close playoff games. In the Magic series, he was unimpressive. The reason people went nuts when LeBrawn made a game winner against the Magic is because this is a new situation for LeBron. It was a rite of pasage. ESPN went nuts. Quite frankly, so did LeBron. It kept the series alive, and prevented them from getting swept. But LeBron doesn't have many moments like that in the playoffs. Or even in regular season games. Certainly not to the degree that Jordan did, even at the tender age of 24.


Um, no.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

That was a nice moment for LeBron but what sticks out in my mind is their futility against the Spurs. Getting swept on 22 points a game and 40% shooting just doesn't cut it as far as creating a legacy of clutch moments goes. The kid was overwhelmed, which is understandable, as he was only 22 years old. 

He had another nice moment in preventing the Cavs from getting swept, but against the Magic, he was less than money in the final minute of tight games (aside from his game winner).

Finally, keep in mind that Lebron doesn't think that Lebron is as good as michael. He's said so himself...


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## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=4211273&type=story

Thursday, May 28, 2009
*Air standards seem out of reach*
By Chris Broussard
ESPN The Magazine​
_The next time you see one of those innovative Kobe-LeBron puppet commercials, savor it, because it may be the only matchup we get this season between the game's two biggest and best stars.

With LeBron's Cavaliers on the brink of summer vacation and Kobe's Lakers in a dogfight with the Denver Nuggets, who knows if we'll get to see the real deals try to one-up each other with the same passion as their marionettes?

You can't blame Nike for pushing the potential dream matchup, and the roommate concept was a nice touch.

It was also right on the money. Figuratively speaking.

LeBron and Kobe are indeed roommates, living under the same roof built by Michael Jordan. Let's call it a mobile home -- one that's, of course, crazy mad plush -- because everywhere they go, the ceiling of their Jordan-constructed digs travels with them.

Everything they do on the basketball court is compared to Jordan. Obviously, that's a compliment to their great skills, but it's also a near-impossible standard that often clouds the judgment of their critics.

I mentioned to LeBron a few weeks ago that he's always being compared to Jordan. His response was a healthy one that I'm sure allows him to keep his sanity.

*"Man, there'll never be another Michael Jordan," he said. "You'll drive yourself crazy trying to be the next Michael Jordan."*

I'm not saying it's wrong to compare these guys to Jordan, mind you. In every field of endeavor, we compare today's best to the best ever, so this is quite natural.

My point is just that Jordan changed the standard by which NBA superstars are measured, and that can often diminish the achievements of the great ones who follow him.

For instance, with Jordan winning six titles without a dominant big man and with just one perennial All-Star teammate (Scottie Pippen) and with such nondescript guys as Stacey King, Bill Wennington, Will Perdue, Jud Buechler, Randy Brown, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, B.J. Armstrong, Scott Burrell, Luc Longley, Jason Caffey and Scott Williams playing key roles, a title is not just a title anymore.

It's no longer enough for a truly, truly great player to win just a title; he must win multiple titles. Then, even if he wins multiple titles, we analyze who he won them with and how good his teammates were.

That's why people seem to have forgotten that Kobe already has won three championships. We always belittle Kobe's three rings by saying, "But he had Shaq."

Yeah, and?

It's like Kobe has to win a championship without Shaq to validate himself.

He can thank Jordan for that.

And if the Cavs fail to defy history by rallying from their 3-1 deficit in the East finals versus Orlando, LeBron will take hits in some quarters for not being Jordanesque enough.

Never mind that he's scored more points in the first four games of a conference finals series than anyone else (including Jordan); LeBron is averaging 42 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists on 50 percent shooting. Or that he hasn't had one teammate score 20 or more points in this series, a sad reality that hasn't happened in a conference final since MJ's Bulls lost to Detroit in 1989. Or that he has just one other starter hitting at least 44 percent of his shots. Or that the Cavs are the only team left standing that doesn't have at least two legitimate stars. Or that he doesn't have anything close to a Pippen or a frontline stopper like Dennis Rodman.

But such is life After Mike.

The legends we lift up and adore from the B.M. (Before Mike) days weren't held to nearly as high a standard.

First of all, before Mike, perimeter players weren't measured by their championships, because no matter how good you were, you needed a big man to win big.

Oscar Robertson, whose triple-double play we laud (and rightly so), won only one title, and that was as a 32-year-old, 11-year veteran playing with a young Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Yet Robertson, who averaged 19 points and 8 assists as a champion rather than the 30-12-11 we praise him for, is still viewed as possibly the best guard ever not named Jordan.

The Logo, Jerry West, played 10 seasons with a healthy Elgin Baylor and four with a healthy Wilt Chamberlain and won just one ring. He lost seven times in the NBA Finals before winning his lone championship (and eight times overall) yet he's nicknamed "Mr. Clutch."

I hesitate to write this next line because it feels sacrilegious, but it's true: If West were being held to the same standard as Kobe and LeBron, he'd be known as "Mr. Clutching His Throat."

Larry Bird won three rings, but none without Top 50 All-Time teammates Kevin McHale and Robert Parish, not to mention the scores of other solid Celtics he played with over the years, including Hall of Famers Bill Walton and Tiny Archibald.

And though Magic Johnson's five rings all came with Kareem, I've never heard him questioned because he never won one without the game's all-time leading scorer. Of course, Magic also had guys like James Worthy, Byron Scott, Jamaal Wilkes, Norm Nixon and Michael Cooper to finish his no-look dimes.

See, that's how good Jordan was. Before him, conventional wisdom was that you couldn't lead the league in scoring and lead a dynasty, that you couldn't lack a dominant big man and build a dynasty.

Can Kobe and LeBron ever reach MJ's rarified air?

We'll see. But if not, they're still in some pretty lofty company.

Chris Broussard is a senior writer at ESPN The Magazine.
_


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

39, 8 and 8 for a series. Damn. But in a losing cause. There's always next year.

He'll never catch the GOAT Bill Russell at this pace.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> seriously, you would think that now that there are actually stats tracking what guys do in late and close situations, the lebron isn't clutch stuff would go away. but his numbers, and team success, in closing out games has been pretty much unmatched over the last few years.


Yeah, at this point it's just pure entertainment watching the excuses for why Bron's not clutch or superior to Jordan at the same age considering the statistics are so overwhelmingly one-sided in his favor.


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## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

And it's pure entertainment when LeBron nuthuggers blissfully ignoring LeBron himself who has stated explicitly he is not as good as Jordan, nor will he ever be.


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## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LeBron has said he's not as good as Kobe. End of discussion. 

rofl. :laugh:


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## CryingWolf

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Imagine the backlash if he (or anybody else) actually came out and said, "Yeah, you know, this year, I think I'm finally as good as Jordan. Yep, this is the year."


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## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



CryingWolf said:


> Imagine the backlash if he (or anybody else) actually came out and said, "Yeah, you know, this year, I think I'm finally as good as Jordan. Yep, this is the year."


oh man, id like to see someone try lol


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## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

The age game is so typical of LeBron supporters. It's not the age that makes someone great, it's the merit of their basketball skills. I could careless if the best player in the league was 40 years old or 18. However when I compare players, I always compare them as professionals from their rookie season onward. 

One of my all time favorite players was Moses Malone, he was never judged based on his age, but on the merit of his skils as a basketball player. And in case you didn't know Moses went prep to pro as well. Except you never hear that well he shouldn't be compared to the other all time Great Centers as a rookie and so forth these many seasons early on because he didn't go to college like they did. 

Yet we hear this asinine argument from the LeBron James followers constantly. As an older NBA fan, and someone that's seen many great basketball players come up and play ball in the NBA, that went from prep to pro excuses were never brought up ad nauseam like they are for LeBron James. So If you're going to judge MJ vs. LBJ do it from their rookie seasons onward. Besides it's a career what makes a player an all time great not a single season. Unless you consider TMAC one of the all time greatest players ever. Than I guess we would just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Ras

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> The age game is so typical of LeBron supporters. It's not the age that makes someone great, it's the merit of their basketball skills. I could careless if the best player in the league was 40 years old or 18. However when I compare players, I always compare them as professionals from their rookie season onward.
> 
> One of my all time favorite players was Moses Malone, he was never judged based on his age, but on the merit of his skils as a basketball player. And in case you didn't know Moses went prep to pro as well. Except you never hear that well he shouldn't be compared to the other all time Great Centers as a rookie and so forth these many seasons early on because he didn't go to college like they did.
> 
> Yet we hear this asinine argument from the LeBron James followers constantly. As an older NBA fan, and someone that's seen many great basketball players come up and play ball in the NBA, that went from prep to pro excuses were never brought up ad nauseam like they are for LeBron James. So If you're going to judge MJ vs. LBJ do it from their rookie seasons onward. Besides it's a career what makes a player an all time great not a single season. Unless you consider TMAC one of the all time greatest players ever. Than I guess we would just have to agree to disagree.


I don't see how you could just turn a blind eye towards context.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Ras said:


> I don't see how you could just turn a blind eye towards context.


Context goes both ways. and no LeBron James supporter is going to go through all the context about people having a different maturation process than others. Some guy's were ready to play pro at 18 some were not. Instead of all the context that we should try and go over, it's easier to judge these guy's as professional, because at the end of the day regardless of their ages, thats what they are, and they are being compensated finely for it. 

Let me give you another example, I was in a long debate years ago on this board about KG versus Duncan. Nobody went out of their way to make KG coming out of high school as a reason why he shouldn't be judged the same way we judge Duncan, and for that matter like every other star player who did go to college, or who went prep to pro. Yet with LeBron James it's all we ever hear, it's been forever and a day LBJ this age, LBJ that age etc The man will be in his 7th NBA season next year and 25 years old. Were already seeing a younger star player, who by the way nobody talks about his age ad nauseam in Dwight Howard, and he might win a title before LeBron, who's gasp! Older than D12. 

So how about let's keep it professional, and judge all basketball players like we've done in the past by their performances year in and year out versus how old or young a player is.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

^ Age matters and has always been more important than seasons played when you're comparing retired players to active players. Otherwise you could never make a comparison of two players unless their circumstances were the same. That's why people parse out, for example, Jordan's prime seasons from his rookie season and Wizard seasons, since it's clear to any thinking, sentient being that Jordan should be judged on his prime (and best) seasons and not his rookie year or his declining Wizard years. You couldn't successfully argue otherwise if your life depended on it either, by the way, which is why you predictably wimp out of citing specifics as to why comparing season by season is superior to comparing age-to-age. No one that has thought through the logic compares an 18 year old rookie (like LeBron or Kobe or Tmac or KG) to, say, David Robinson during his rookie season when he was 24 years old and then come to the totally useless conclusion that Drob was a better rookie at that age. Of course he was, human biology dicates, without essentially any exception, that a player is physically significantly different at 18 than at 24. When you accept that irrefutable logic you have to then accept that comparing by age instead of seasons is superior unless the players in question entered the league at the same age, which would make the comparison more equal. 

This argument is not exclusive to LeBron James either, that's baseless. Considering how horribly, horribly wrong you have been about the Cavs and LeBron James for a good 4 years running now, I'd figure you stay out of these sort of debates. :laugh:


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> That was a nice moment for LeBron but what sticks out in my mind is their futility against the Spurs. Getting swept on 22 points a game and 40% shooting just doesn't cut it as far as creating a legacy of clutch moments goes. The kid was overwhelmed, which is understandable, as he was only 22 years old.
> 
> He had another nice moment in preventing the Cavs from getting swept, but against the Magic, he was less than money in the final minute of tight games (aside from his game winner).
> 
> Finally, keep in mind that Lebron doesn't think that Lebron is as good as michael. He's said so himself...


do you really think lebron hasn't hit multiple playoff game winners and that lebron somehow isn't clutch?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> The age game is so typical of LeBron supporters. It's not the age that makes someone great, it's the merit of their basketball skills. I could careless if the best player in the league was 40 years old or 18. However when I compare players, I always compare them as professionals from their rookie season onward.


i'll try this one last time. lebron's age is important because his career is still going on. in trying to project a player's career, the age they do things at is very important. if lebron was 28 and doing the things he's doing now, it would be assumed that he was at his peak which could last a couple of years before a decline was expected. since he is doing these things at 24, the assumption is that he will likely make some improvements to his game and become a better player because most players don't peak at 24. at the end of lebron's career, what's going to matter most is the level he played at during his peak and how long it lasted. if at his peak he has the greatest season ever, he will the best peak year player of all time. if for a period of several years he plays at a level at or above the level any other player has ever played at, he will be the GOAT. simple as that. and age is important in projecting that. if lebron was in the 28-30 range right now, people wouldn't talk about him having a shot at being the GOAT. after the season he had this year and at his age, he very well can be in that discussion.



> One of my all time favorite players was Moses Malone, he was never judged based on his age, but on the merit of his skils as a basketball player. And in case you didn't know Moses went prep to pro as well. Except you never hear that well he shouldn't be compared to the other all time Great Centers as a rookie and so forth these many seasons early on because he didn't go to college like they did.


i find it hard to believe that during moses malone's career, the early age at which he did things wasn't brought up. now that his career is over, the age at which he did things isn't all that important. what matters most is what he did at his peak and how long it lasted.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Cap said:


> ^ Age matters and has always been more important than seasons played when you're comparing retired players to active players. Otherwise you could never make a comparison of two players unless their circumstances were the same. That's why people parse out, for example, Jordan's prime seasons from his rookie season and Wizard seasons, since it's clear to any thinking, sentient being that Jordan should be judged on his prime (and best) seasons and not his rookie year or his declining Wizard years. You couldn't successfully argue otherwise if your life depended on it either, by the way, which is why you predictably wimp out of citing specifics as to why comparing season by season is superior to comparing age-to-age. No one that has thought through the logic compares an 18 year old rookie (like LeBron or Kobe or Tmac or KG) to, say, David Robinson during his rookie season when he was 24 years old and then come to the totally useless conclusion that Drob was a better rookie at that age. Of course he was, human biology dicates, without essentially any exception, that a player is physically significantly different at 18 than at 24. When you accept that irrefutable logic you have to then accept that comparing by age instead of seasons is superior unless the players in question entered the league at the same age, which would make the comparison more equal.
> 
> This argument is not exclusive to LeBron James either, that's baseless. Considering how horribly, horribly wrong you have been about the Cavs and LeBron James for a good 4 years running now, I'd figure you stay out of these sort of debates. :laugh:


Thanks for the insults. A very nice bonus and touch by you. So you can find your bonus at the end of my post here. Enjoy it. As You are the pony tail dude in the good will hunting video I posted earlier. Always think your so much smarter than you actually are.

I've made my case and I stand by it, your post also reeks of the sentiment I explained to Ras up above, that if you want to put context into the whole age comparisons. You have to go both ways with that debate. Not everyone has the same maturation process. Which you conveniently leave out of the discussion. And of course you would as you are arguing in favor of LeBron James. Some 18 year olds, need more time to grow, and hone their skills so they are NBA ready, wether it be 18 or 24. I don't have a PHD. But what I can tell you with my interaction with many different people of different walks of life, is that you can't judge people by their age. I've worked with guy's in their 30s who acted like teenagers, and I've worked with guys in their 20s that had a much better head on their shoulders. Like I said the maturation process is different for everybody. Hence why the age argument is totally bunk to me.

LBJ was ready to play in the NBA at 18. Good for him, he got a jump start on his Professional career, was able to make millions before most of his peers. However he's being paid as a Pro Athlete, he doesn't deserve any special kind of treatment, because he was able to make that jump when others can't. I'm sure if every 18 year old was mentally and physically able and possessed the skills to play in the NBA at 18 they would do it as well. (before the NBA changed the rules)

Now below is a list I've come up with from players past, and present. Who all made the jump from prep to pro. The guy's who have retired, never were discussed ad nauseam about their age like LeBron James. Instead we held them to their production season in and season out. Nobody said oh wait we can't judge Kemp or Dawkins or Malone to these all time greats because they went prep to pro. No! we judge their body of work, and that' starts from when they sign their contracts and become a professionally paid athlete. So season to season is the best way to judge players in my opinion.

Now we have a ton of guys in the NBA right now you will see on the list below, who's age, and the fact they went prep to pro rarely gets brought up. Which I think is good, but LeBron should be no different. Judge all basketball players from the past to present by the merit of their basketball skills, not what their birth certificate says.

It shouldn't be a negative or positive for anybody that needs more or less time to go through their maturation process. 

List of NBA playres who went prep to pro. 

Shawn Kemp, Moses Malone, Darryl Dawkins, Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal, Tracy McGrady, Stephen Jackson, Al Harrington, Rashard Lewis, Darius Miles, DeShawn Stevenson, Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry, DeSagana Diop, Travis Outlaw, Kendrick Perkins, Dwight Howard, Shaun Livingston, Sebastian Telfair, Al Jefferson, JR Smith, Josh Smith, Andrew Bynum, Monta Ellis, Louis Williams.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> i'll try this one last time. lebron's age is important because his career is still going on. in trying to project a player's career, the age they do things at is very important. if lebron was 28 and doing the things he's doing now, it would be assumed that he was at his peak which could last a couple of years before a decline was expected. since he is doing these things at 24, the assumption is that he will likely make some improvements to his game and become a better player because most players don't peak at 24. at the end of lebron's career, what's going to matter most is the level he played at during his peak and how long it lasted. if at his peak he has the greatest season ever, he will the best peak year player of all time. if for a period of several years he plays at a level at or above the level any other player has ever played at, he will be the GOAT. simple as that. and age is important in projecting that. if lebron was in the 28-30 range right now, people wouldn't talk about him having a shot at being the GOAT. after the season he had this year and at his age, he very well can be in that discussion.
> 
> 
> i find it hard to believe that during moses malone's career, the early age at which he did things wasn't brought up. now that his career is over, the age at which he did things isn't all that important. what matters most is what he did at his peak and how long it lasted.


If you want my opinion, read my post up above.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> If you want my opinion, read my post up above.


i don't know why i even try.

what exactly is it about lebron that makes you hold him to a completely different standard than every other player?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> i don't know why i even try.
> 
> what exactly is it about lebron that makes you hold him to a completely different standard than every other player?


Nobody is holding LBJ to any standard that's just it. We hold LBJ to what he accomplishes season in and season out. Nothing less nothing more. I pretty much out lined my out look on all NBA players past and present in my post up above. If you disagree with it, that's fine I can live with that, and not carry a grudge around because you don't agree with me.

Now if you want to start to throw around petty insults directed at me like Cap does. I can play that game as well. I admit though it's immature and silly to fall for the same bait tactics that several posters like to you use over and over to the point it's like hearing a broken record. But I'll leave that up to you rocketeer.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> I've made my case and I stand by it, your post also reeks of the sentiment I explained to Ras up above, that if you want to put context into the whole age comparisons. You have to go both ways with that debate. Not everyone has the same maturation process. Which you conveniently leave out of the discussion.


I'm not sure what part of the "maturation process" you're citing because it doesn't actually aid your point whatsoever. 



> And of course you would as you are arguing in favor of LeBron James. Some 18 year olds, need more time to grow, and hone their skills so they are NBA ready, wether it be 18 or 24. I don't have a PHD. But what I can tell you with my interaction with many different people of different walks of life, is that you can't judge people by their age. I've worked with guy's in their 30s who acted like teenagers, and I've worked with guys in their 20s that had a much better head on their shoulders. Like I said the maturation process is different for everybody. Hence why the age argument is totally bunk to me.


OK, but the mind and body are different. And even then, there are fundamental differences in brain chemistry between, say, an 18 year old and a 30 year old, like frontal lobe development that allows adults to generally control their impulsivity better than teenagers, all else equal. The same sort of idea is true with body maturation which you really don't need a PhD for; you are not physically as "mature" at 18 as you are during your 20's, generally speaking. People don't peak at 18 or even 24, not in any sport. And it's not just strength but basketball experience (which doesn't necessarily have to be on the professional level, but can be college, high school, etc.) that improves between that critical 18-24 period. 



> LBJ was ready to play in the NBA at 18. Good for him, he got a jump start on his Professional career, was able to make millions before most of his peers. However he's being paid as a Pro Athlete, he doesn't deserve any special kind of treatment, because he was able to make that jump when others can't. I'm sure if every 18 year old was mentally and physically able and possessed the skills to play in the NBA at 18 they would do it as well. (before the NBA changed the rules)


Again, what are you even saying here? LeBron James being physically mature enough to enter the NBA at 18 is an _attribute_. It doesn't handicap him in discussions unless you're insane enough to compare him at that age to 24 year old rookies like David Robinson or something. 



> Now below is a list I've come up with from players past, and present. Who all made the jump from prep to pro. The guy's who have retired, never were discussed ad nauseam about their age like LeBron James. Instead we held them to their production season in and season out. Nobody said oh wait we can't judge Kemp or Dawkins or Malone to these all time greats because they went prep to pro. No! we judge their body of work, and that' starts from when they sign their contracts and become a professionally paid athlete. So season to season is the best way to judge players in my opinion.
> 
> Now we have a ton of guys in the NBA right now you will see on the list below, who's age, and the fact they went prep to pro rarely gets brought up. Which I think is good, but LeBron should be no different. Judge all basketball players from the past to present by the merit of their basketball skills, not what their birth certificate says.
> 
> It shouldn't be a negative or positive for anybody that needs more or less time to go through their maturation process.
> 
> List of NBA playres who went prep to pro.
> 
> Shawn Kemp, Moses Malone, Darryl Dawkins, Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal, Tracy McGrady, Stephen Jackson, Al Harrington, Rashard Lewis, Darius Miles, DeShawn Stevenson, Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry, DeSagana Diop, Travis Outlaw, Kendrick Perkins, Dwight Howard, Shaun Livingston, Sebastian Telfair, Al Jefferson, JR Smith, Josh Smith, Andrew Bynum, Monta Ellis, Louis Williams.


I'm not really sure what to tell you if you don't think, in the modern NBA era (say the last 10 years or so), that people weren't marveling at the age KG, Bryant, and Tmac were doing the things they were doing and using it in the exact same way they marvel at what LeBron did during his younger seasons. This idea that only LeBron gets the benefit of the doubt about age or something seems like some sort of complex about LeBron you made up. 



> *Now everyone picture Cap, and a few other select posters here as the guy with the blonde hair and pony tail in the Good Will Hunting Video. It' fit's their Internet BBF.NET personalities to a T.*


Yeah, I saw this the first time and it wasn't funny then either.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Thanks for the insults. A very nice bonus and touch by you. So you can find your bonus at the end of my post here. Enjoy it. As You are the pony tail dude in the good will hunting video I posted earlier. Always think your so much smarter than you actually are.
> 
> I've made my case and I stand by it, your post also reeks of the sentiment I explained to Ras up above, that if you want to put context into the whole age comparisons. You have to go both ways with that debate. Not everyone has the same maturation process. Which you conveniently leave out of the discussion. And of course you would as you are arguing in favor of LeBron James. Some 18 year olds, need more time to grow, and hone their skills so they are NBA ready, wether it be 18 or 24. I don't have a PHD. But what I can tell you with my interaction with many different people of different walks of life, is that you can't judge people by their age. I've worked with guy's in their 30s who acted like teenagers, and I've worked with guys in their 20s that had a much better head on their shoulders. Like I said the maturation process is different for everybody. Hence why the age argument is totally bunk to me.
> 
> LBJ was ready to play in the NBA at 18. Good for him, he got a jump start on his Professional career, was able to make millions before most of his peers. However he's being paid as a Pro Athlete, he doesn't deserve any special kind of treatment, because he was able to make that jump when others can't. I'm sure if every 18 year old was mentally and physically able and possessed the skills to play in the NBA at 18 they would do it as well. (before the NBA changed the rules)
> 
> Now below is a list I've come up with from players past, and present. Who all made the jump from prep to pro. The guy's who have retired, never were discussed ad nauseam about their age like LeBron James. Instead we held them to their production season in and season out. Nobody said oh wait we can't judge Kemp or Dawkins or Malone to these all time greats because they went prep to pro. No! we judge their body of work, and that' starts from when they sign their contracts and become a professionally paid athlete. So season to season is the best way to judge players in my opinion.
> 
> Now we have a ton of guys in the NBA right now you will see on the list below, who's age, and the fact they went prep to pro rarely gets brought up. Which I think is good, but LeBron should be no different. Judge all basketball players from the past to present by the merit of their basketball skills, not what their birth certificate says.
> 
> It shouldn't be a negative or positive for anybody that needs more or less time to go through their maturation process.
> 
> List of NBA playres who went prep to pro.
> 
> Shawn Kemp, Moses Malone, Darryl Dawkins, Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal, Tracy McGrady, Stephen Jackson, Al Harrington, Rashard Lewis, Darius Miles, DeShawn Stevenson, Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry, DeSagana Diop, Travis Outlaw, Kendrick Perkins, Dwight Howard, Shaun Livingston, Sebastian Telfair, Al Jefferson, JR Smith, Josh Smith, Andrew Bynum, Monta Ellis, Louis Williams.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Now everyone picture Cap, and a few other select posters here as the guy with the blonde hair and pony tail in the Good Will Hunting Video. It' fit's their Internet BBF.NET personalities to a T.*


once again, it's a moot point because almost everyone else will be judging these guys based on what they do during their prime years. just like moses. 

i don't recall ever seeing an answer to this question to you:



> if you take the same exact player and put him in the league at 18 straight from hs, and 21 with 3 years of college, would you have any expectation as to which version would have the better rookie season?


how good lebron is NOW matters a hell of a lot more than how good he was as a rookie. even though he was actually setting new standards as a rookie. 

how much do you detract from jordan's career based on his wizards stint? did he put his goat status in jeapordy by coming back?


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

The Oblivious league still going in strong in this thread.

James set standards as a rookie? OK. I won't laugh at that. Although I should.

Anyway, let's see how these lebrawn supporters talk when his 280 pound load takes a toll on his bumbling and tumbling game style, because you can be a homer all you want, but you know that's all he does other than shoot if he's "hot", just stumble into people.

So let's see few years down the line how will that look.

I'm sure KFLO and his e-buddies are more than sure that Lebrawn is a magical specimen of human kind and he will play at this same pace and speed in his 30's.

Because, just like we already concluded here, it's all the same if you come into the league at 22 years or 18. 4 years? That's nothing to these superb athletets of today.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

again dnko, it's difficult to appreciate what point it is exactly you are arguing against, as you seem averse to actually quoting and making counterpoints. instead, you choose to rant at noone and nothing in particular. take it slow. what exactly are you disagreeing with? i'm trying to help you here buddy.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Well I can't speak for DNKO, but the point is that if you are going to speculate about a player's future performance (an extremely dicey proposition: who thought grant hill would be unable to perform at a high level after ankle surgery? who guessed jordan would be playing baseball at 30?, etc), there are certain major factors you have to account for:

*1. mileage*: the heavier the player, the more damage to their joints. Shaq and Yao just don't do full seasons. They are the heaviest players in the league. A coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. LeBron, as a slasher, benefits from his weight and strength, but it will be a liability in the future (late 20's onward). 

Jordan had the luxury of playing 35 games a year in college while LeBron was accumulating mileage from playing 100 games a year at the same time. 

Third point: Jordan took three years off during his prime (one due to injury, two due to "retirement"). This extended his career. I doubt LeBron will have this luxury. 

*2. jump shot.* As Jordan and Kobe aged, they relied much more heavily on their J. Jordan and Kobe (esp. Jordan) have/had beautiful jump shots. Feared jump shots. LeBron does not. Arguably, he gets great looks because of his speed and vertical, not because his shot is technically perfect. As his speed and vertical decline with age, his technique will become more important. Will he refine it? Maybe, maybe not. Right now, he's relying on his athleticism more than anything else.

*3. motivation.* Kobe is highly motivated to win a ring without a super big. Jordan was motivated to win at everything. LeBron's motivation is to become a billionaire. Kobe wanted to emulate Jordan down to his mannerisms (tongue wagging, voice inflections). LeBron rejects any comparison. 

I would say his competitive drive is not as strong as Jordan's or Kobe's. 

LeBron is great, but leans too heavily on athleticism, as opposed to technique. He will have to adjust and improve his game accordingly as his athleticism declines. It's a big question mark as to how, to what degree, or even if, he is willing to do so. Shawn Kemp was projected to be the best power forward ever, based strictly on athleticism. Instead, he became a fat slob. You can't predict the future.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

mileage - lebron is not nearly as big as many make him out to be. he's lean and in great shape. he has a fairly big frame but most importantly keeps himself in phenomenal shape. he just has a big build. karl malone was bigger and arguably the most durable player ever. jordan's career was only extended in the sense the played till he was older. but he missed those seasons. lebron will have more prime seasons under his belt before he gets to 35. 

jump shot - lebron will also have time to refine his 3 point shooting, something he's already better at than jordan ever was. and his size will provide him the opportunity to play closer to the basket than jordan. magic provides as much a blueprint here as jordan does. he can combine aspects into his game.

motivation - you're really reaching on competitive drive. you simply don't know (and kobe's voice inflections mirror that of his father). lebron rejecting comparisons says nothing, other than some media savvy. 

lebron is likely still years away from his athleticism declining materially. he also has a gift in terms of court vision and passing ability beyond what jordan or kobe have, as well as a size advantage in rebounding. his adjustment to declining athleticism will come gradually, and he'll have alot of other tools to rely upon. 

kemp was projected to be great. i don't know who said best ever. and lebron of course is not projected based strictly on athleticism. it's a component of his game. little more than it was a component of jordan's game earlier in his career, if at all. and lebron clearly has a drive beyond that of shawn kemp.

of course, alot remains to be seen. injuries happen. but it's not like the deck is stacked against lebron. he still has alot to achieve to reach the top, that is a given.


----------



## f22egl

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> mileage - lebron is not nearly as big as many make him out to be. he's lean and in great shape. he has a fairly big frame but most importantly keeps himself in phenomenal shape. he just has a big build. karl malone was bigger and arguably the most durable player ever. jordan's career was only extended in the sense the played till he was older. but he missed those seasons. lebron will have more prime seasons under his belt before he gets to 35.
> 
> *jump shot - lebron will also have time to refine his 3 point shooting, something he's already better at than jordan ever was. and his size will provide him the opportunity to play closer to the basket than jordan. magic provides as much a blueprint here as jordan does. he can combine aspects into his game.*
> 
> motivation - you're really reaching on competitive drive. you simply don't know (and kobe's voice inflections mirror that of his father). lebron rejecting comparisons says nothing, other than some media savvy.
> 
> lebron is likely still years away from his athleticism declining materially. he also has a gift in terms of court vision and passing ability beyond what jordan or kobe have, as well as a size advantage in rebounding. his adjustment to declining athleticism will come gradually, and he'll have alot of other tools to rely upon.
> 
> kemp was projected to be great. i don't know who said best ever. and lebron of course is not projected based strictly on athleticism. it's a component of his game. little more than it was a component of jordan's game earlier in his career, if at all. and lebron clearly has a drive beyond that of shawn kemp.
> 
> of course, alot remains to be seen. injuries happen. but it's not like the deck is stacked against lebron. he still has alot to achieve to reach the top, that is a given.


There's more to a jump shot than a 3 point shot. Certainly, LeBron's jumper inside the 3 point line is not at Jordan's level yet. Neither is his post game.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

i didn't say it was. but again, jordan's game changed over time. so will lebron's.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> mileage - lebron is not nearly as big as many make him out to be.


So, that's basically your way of saying "a ton of salad is lighter than a ton of led".

Right? Because, otherwise I don't understand how can you say that he's not NEARLY as big as people think, he's 6'8 or 6'9, and weighs AT LEAST 270. That's "small" to you? Or average?

Ok then.



kflo said:


> he has a fairly big frame but most importantly keeps himself in phenomenal shape. he just has a big build.


Wait, he's not big as people think, but he has a big build? 

He's big, ok? He has hips wider than his shoulders, his legs look like telephone poles, and his arms are, well, ridiculously big.

That's the weight his ankles have to carry day in day out on the court. 

But maybe his joints and ankles are immune to that, because they're special Lebrawn James joints.



kflo said:


> karl malone was bigger and arguably the most durable player ever.


Karl never played the type of basketball James does. And was not bigger. Maybe had bigger arms.

And AC Green was durable as Malone too, and he was built as a twig. So I don't see any logical correlation between being bulked up and playing for long.



kflo said:


> jump shot - lebron will also have time to refine his 3 point shooting, something he's already better at than jordan ever was.


Jordan never took as many 3's as James did, yet their 3 point percentages are practically IDENTICAL. So, yeah, in YOUR eyes he's already better, but in reality, he's not, he's a streaky shooter with no shooting discipline.

His jump shot is weak. 6 years in the league, and his playoffs performances outside the paint still go in the zone of 2-12 or something like that (11-28 from the field overall) like few days ago.

He doesn't have a decent jumpshot. Can he work on it? Yeah. He's "young". He will still be "young" to you guys even when he gets in his 30's. And then the story will most likely switch to "James played a lot more games in his first XY years so Jordan was more rested" or something in case of justifying Lebrawn status at that moment.




kflo said:


> lebron is likely still years away from his athleticism declining materially. he also has a gift in terms of court vision and passing ability beyond what jordan or kobe have, as well as a size advantage in rebounding.


Oh dear. It just..it hurts my eyes to see people throwing terms around they've heard on TV thinking they know what those mean...

What's "court vision"? 8 TO's in the game? Passing ability? For a player that has every single possession in his hands for 15 seconds, I don't see how he wouldn't rack those assists up.

I won't even dare to ask about passing abilities of Deron or Chris Paul, damn those guys are probably already ahead of Magic, and of course Lebron right behind them.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> So, that's basically your way of saying "a ton of salad is lighter than a ton of led".
> 
> Right? Because, otherwise I don't understand how can you say that he's not NEARLY as big as people think, he's 6'8 or 6'9, and weighs AT LEAST 270. That's "small" to you? Or average?
> 
> Ok then.


I didn't realize lebron stepped on a scale for you. And no, he's not carrying an unusual amount of weight that would make him more likely to break down.



DNKO said:


> Wait, he's not big as people think, but he has a big build?
> 
> He's big, ok? He has hips wider than his shoulders, his legs look like telephone poles, and his arms are, well, ridiculously big.
> 
> That's the weight his ankles have to carry day in day out on the court.


Again, he's pretty lean. 


DNKO said:


> But maybe his joints and ankles are immune to that, because they're special Lebrawn James joints.


His joints are carrying a well proportioned, well conditioned athlete.



DNKO said:


> Karl never played the type of basketball James does. And was not bigger. Maybe had bigger arms.
> 
> And AC Green was durable as Malone too, and he was built as a twig. So I don't see any logical correlation between being bulked up and playing for long.


Karl malone was actually one of the most athletic ever at his position. Very fast, good leaper. And used it. No, he wasn't lebron though in terms of his overall game. Yes, he used his athleticism to significant advantage. malone did stay in great shape, and that was obviously a key to his longevity and durability. Staying in great condition is likely correlated with durability, no?



DNKO said:


> Jordan never took as many 3's as James did, yet their 3 point percentages are practically IDENTICAL. So, yeah, in YOUR eyes he's already better, but in reality, he's not, he's a streaky shooter with no shooting discipline.


Jordan's career % is obviously inflated from the few years he played when they moved the line in. His % with the line back was sub 30%.materially worse than lebron. That's just fact.



DNKO said:


> His jump shot is weak. 6 years in the league, and his playoffs performances outside the paint still go in the zone of 2-12 or something like that (11-28 from the field overall) like few days ago.
> 
> He doesn't have a decent jumpshot. Can he work on it? Yeah. He's "young". He will still be "young" to you guys even when he gets in his 30's. And then the story will most likely switch to "James played a lot more games in his first XY years so Jordan was more rested" or something in case of justifying Lebrawn status at that moment.


Yes, you don't like his shot. Got it.




DNKO said:


> Oh dear. It just..it hurts my eyes to see people throwing terms around they've heard on TV thinking they know what those mean...
> 
> What's "court vision"? 8 TO's in the game? Passing ability? For a player that has every single possession in his hands for 15 seconds, I don't see how he wouldn't rack those assists up.
> 
> I won't even dare to ask about passing abilities of Deron or Chris Paul, damn those guys are probably already ahead of Magic, and of course Lebron right behind them.


Lebron's got great court vision. Sorry you can't see what's obvious.

If you see a guy who can't shoot or pass and is sure to wear down quickly, then I can see why you're down on him. 
Btw, kudos for at least a much better effort.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Naw, your points hardly make any sense.

Jordan had few nice 3PT seasons before his "inflated" years, and, again, he never took as many 3's as James.

James is, in fact, very inefficient 3 point shooter.

Also, if you think he's _lean_. That's...pretty much it.


Yup. Your perception is wrong on so many levels it's astonishing to me.


Also, about James' jumper, my liking or disliking has nothing to do with

- his bricks
- his NBA record of 20+ minutes without a field goal made (after more than 10 attempts, last year against Celtics)
- his NBA record 2-18 shot (also from last year Celtics)
- 2-12 outside the paint from few days ago

Etc.

Has nothing to do with visuals and shooting style. He just sucks at it.


----------



## bballlife

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I don't buy this LeBron 270 stuff at all. It's been going on for about a year now, with some analysts even calling him 275. Dwight Howard is listed at 265. There was a time in the last series where LeBron was in the post vs. Howard. Observation? Howard is a bit bigger. I can go with 260, and I think he said something like that in his 60 Minutes interview, but not 270, not unless we are talking about what he weighs with a snowsuit on.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



Cap said:


> I'm not sure what part of the "maturation process" you're citing because it doesn't actually aid your point whatsoever.


That's where we obviously have a fundamental disagreement. I'm not sure what yo do for a living, but considering I have a lot of interaction with school teachers, I hear all the time how some kids who graduate are very mature, and have a great vision and plan for their life out side of high school. Yet some of those teachers also mention how some of their students who graduated, and some who don't are in their 30s living with their parents. (My inside source is my wife she is a high school teacher).

Plus I'm sure we all have seen in our lives how being the same age doesn't make any bit of difference in how people grow, mature, and handle them selves. 





> OK, but the mind and body are different. And even then, there are fundamental differences in brain chemistry between, say, an 18 year old and a 30 year old, like frontal lobe development that allows adults to generally control their impulsivity better than teenagers, all else equal. The same sort of idea is true with body maturation which you really don't need a PhD for; you are not physically as "mature" at 18 as you are during your 20's, generally speaking. People don't peak at 18 or even 24, not in any sport. And it's not just strength but basketball experience (which doesn't necessarily have to be on the professional level, but can be college, high school, etc.) that improves between that critical 18-24 period.


Sorry Cap, but I highly doubt you are qualified to break down the biology of all human beings. Also I highly doubt you are qualified to say exactly why some 18 year olds are much more mature than some 30 year olds. 

My point stands, and you didn't do anything to refute it other than come up with generalizations. 

It's fair to say guy's like Moses Malone, LeBron James, and Shawn Kemp for example had the skill set, physical tools, and ability to make an impact as teenagers. They didn't need to go to college to work on their craft. More power to them. That said they are not going to be given some kind of excuse if they don't have great seasons right out of the gate. When you decide to become a professional athlete, you are compensated and paid for it. The NBA isn't a development league, you get paid millions to do a job. Do people get better of course they do, even the guy's that played in college, get better. 





> Again, what are you even saying here? LeBron James being physically mature enough to enter the NBA at 18 is an _attribute_. It doesn't handicap him in discussions unless you're insane enough to compare him at that age to 24 year old rookies like David Robinson or something.


I think your missing the point, I'm the one that's not holding anything against LeBron. I'm holding him to the same standards I would any player who enters the league, at any age , regardless of the road they took to get there. 



I


> 'm not really sure what to tell you if you don't think, in the modern NBA era (say the last 10 years or so), that people weren't marveling at the age KG, Bryant, and Tmac were doing the things they were doing and using it in the exact same way they marvel at what LeBron did during his younger seasons. This idea that only LeBron gets the benefit of the doubt about age or something seems like some sort of complex about LeBron you made up.



I disagree, we have discussions all the time in this forum about Garnett and Mcgrady and in those debate the Age and Prep To Pro is rarely ever mentioned. When we compare KG to Duncan or TMAC to any other Great Wing player in the League, you rarely hear anything about the fact they went Prep To Pro, in trying to prop up their achievements. Instead, we judge them year in and year out from their rookie season to the last season they played. And discuss their achievements, abilities, and the merit of their basketball skills all the way around. We don't discuss their birth certificate ad nauseam like LeBron supporters do.

I think I get it though, it's always going to be about LBJ age until he wins a championship. That's what I'm starting to believe. Because it seems when ever he falls short, he doesn't get criticized like every all star before him, naw people much rather just discuss his age. Yeah I get it dude. And once again nice job with the little cheap shot at the end there Cap. 




> Yeah, I saw this the first time and it wasn't funny then either.


Again we disagree, your just like the dude in the pony tail, you see someone posting , and than you butt in and trying to act intellectually superior. Like Matt Damon said, you probably spit out everything you read, and don't know how to think for yourself, and be original. Instead your to busy trying to be Mr. Know It All, I say take the stick out your ***.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



DNKO said:


> Also, if you think he's _lean_. That's...pretty much it.






























yeah, he's pretty lean. he's not carrying an extraordinary amount of excess weight. he's very thin, without a barrel chest. he's got good arms and a thick neck.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

LeBrawn is a beast. I do think he weighs in around 260-265. Not good for the ol' joints. Kobe pumped you up all the weigh to 235 but trimmed back down since he wanted to extend his career. 



bballlife said:


> I don't buy this LeBron 270 stuff at all. It's been going on for about a year now, with some analysts even calling him 275. Dwight Howard is listed at 265. There was a time in the last series where LeBron was in the post vs. Howard. Observation? Howard is a bit bigger. I can go with 260, and I think he said something like that in his 60 Minutes interview, but not 270, not unless we are talking about what he weighs with a snowsuit on.


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> That's where we obviously have a fundamental disagreement. I'm not sure what yo do for a living, but considering I have a lot of interaction with school teachers, I hear all the time how some kids who graduate are very mature, and have a great vision and plan for their life out side of high school. Yet some of those teachers also mention how some of their students who graduated, and some who don't are in their 30s living with their parents. (My inside source is my wife she is a high school teacher).
> 
> Plus I'm sure we all have seen in our lives how being the same age doesn't make any bit of difference in how people grow, mature, and handle them selves.


That's fine and I really don't disagree, except for the fact that there are actual biological differences that are relevant to the discussion. You wouldn't compare an 8 year old to a 28 year old for obvious reasons. The same logic, to a different degree, applies to comparing 18 year olds to 28 year olds or even 24 year olds. 



> Sorry Cap, but I highly doubt you are qualified to break down the biology of all human beings. Also I highly doubt you are qualified to say exactly why some 18 year olds are much more mature than some 30 year olds.


I just told you why and you don't need to be a PhD to realize it. Hell, you can wikipedia it if you really wanted to waste your time. Or you could ask an MD, PhD, or take a course in neuropsychology. Either way you're going to get the same answers every single time; that there are biological thresholds that are reached entirely (or nearly entirely) dependent on age. 



> My point stands, and you didn't do anything to refute it other than come up with generalizations.
> 
> It's fair to say guy's like Moses Malone, LeBron James, and Shawn Kemp for example had the skill set, physical tools, and ability to make an impact as teenagers. They didn't need to go to college to work on their craft. More power to them. That said they are not going to be given some kind of excuse if they don't have great seasons right out of the gate. When you decide to become a professional athlete, you are compensated and paid for it. The NBA isn't a development league, you get paid millions to do a job. Do people get better of course they do, even the guy's that played in college, get better.


No actually, I stated facts about how the human body and mind mature. If you want to refute that you're going to have to cite your sources, because I can easily cite mine. Can you? I'm going to guess no.



> I disagree, we have discussions all the time in this forum about Garnett and Mcgrady and in those debate the Age and Prep To Pro is rarely ever mentioned.


You are severely wrong about this and there's nothing anyone can do to help you believe otherwise. Tmac and KG's ages were *routinely* cited in Minny and Toronto by both media and fans. A theme throughout the 98 All Star game was the youth of KG and Kobe, for example. The amount of examples are endless. 



> When we compare KG to Duncan or TMAC to any other Great Wing player in the League, you rarely hear anything about the fact they went Prep To Pro, in trying to prop up their achievements. Instead, we judge them year in and year out from their rookie season to the last season they played. And discuss their achievements, abilities, and the merit of their basketball skills all the way around. We don't discuss their birth certificate ad nauseam like LeBron supporters do.


I dare you to find one thread comparing Tmac or KG's rookie season to rookies like Duncan (or anyone else who had 4 years of college ball and were 22 or older). It's insanely stupid to the nth degree and anyone who has made such comparisons have been resoundly laughed at or mocked.



> I think I get it though, it's always going to be about LBJ age until he wins a championship. That's what I'm starting to believe. Because it seems when ever he falls short, he doesn't get criticized like every all star before him, naw people much rather just discuss his age. Yeah I get it dude. And once again nice job with the little cheap shot at the end there Cap.
> 
> Again we disagree, your just like the dude in the pony tail, you see someone posting , and than you butt in and trying to act intellectually superior. Like Matt Damon said, you probably spit out everything you read, and don't know how to think for yourself, and be original. Instead your to busy trying to be Mr. Know It All, I say take the stick out your ***.


This isn't creative writing, though on that front you'd fail miserably. The fact that you do not understand basic biology, though, is telling and doesn't require any originality whatsoever to understand.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Cap, you're deliberately twisting and misinterpreting other's posts. The point is not so much about human biology and development, as it is about LeBrawn's fans unrelenting ability to make excuses whenever weaknesses in LeBrawn's game are found, pointed out, exposed or merely mentioned. 

The argument goes something like this:

LeBron 'hater': LeBron's jumper looks and smells like doggie doo

LeBron lover: he's young, he's got time to become and/or overtake the greatest ever

OR:

hater: he hasn't won anything

lover: he's young, he's got time to become and/or overtake the greatest ever

OR:

hater: he's a crybaby brat

lover: he's young, he's got time...

hater: who cares, he's been in the league 6 years

lover: GIVE HIM TIME!!!!


You get the picture. Yes, he is only 24. But he does have 6 full years of experience under his belt. At this point, there are no excuses for his failures, just as surely as there are no qualifiers or caveats for his achievements.

edit: also, you lose a lot of the respect of fellow posters and draw a lot of unnecessary animosity towards yourself by unfairly characterizing others as 'failures' when you simply disagree. Tighten it up, bucko.


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## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

^ You can't engage in additional discussion while similtaneously wimping out on previous debates on the same topic, such as the one two pages back. It makes you look bad. Maybe stick with Fly With Me on VHS or something. Until then, you really are out of your depth and, if you want to show otherwise, you're going to have to come up with something better than "But LeBron says he'll never be Jordan", which means nothing without analysis.


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## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

The question is, are you able to disagree in a civil manner without resorting to child-ish name calling? Your last post proves not. But I won't sink to your glorious depths. As I have said before, you have an unnatural identification with one player in particular. You have to learn to play nice. 

As far as engaging every point, some of us don't have the spare time to post 15,000 times.


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## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

^ Yet you continue to post and reply in this thread to prove...what exactly? That LeBron is "loved" and "jocked", oh and by the way I don't like it when you call me names Cap but just so you know I'm going to do the same. Contradiction at its finest. 

Btw, you average more posts per day than I do. All my total post count proves is that I've probably been following ball a lot longer than you.


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## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

It's your life, man, feel free to spend your time as you see fit. If you want to post thousands of times a year, every year for half a decade or longer, I have no issue with that. But learn how to respond to the substance of people's posts. If you feel that I have personally insulted you, of course you are free to call me out on that. But if others engage in behavior you dislike, should you engage in that same behavior? To exact revenge, or 'e-venge?' You're bigger than that. 


Good luck.


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## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

The substance of the anti-LeBron tirades (despite historical regular and post seasons from him this year) has been quite adequately addressed by several posters here including myself. If you want to add something you can, but "LeBron says he'll never be MJ" in isolation doesn't really cut it. Neither does ignoring basic human biology.


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## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

'Atta boy, Cap! Disagreement in a civil manner!


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## lessthanjake

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

By the way, saying that there will never be another Jordan is NOT the same as saying you're not as good as him. LeBron will never be another Jordan because his game is significantly different than Jordan's, not because he isnt as good.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



> Cap;5992864]That's fine and I really don't disagree, except for the fact that there are actual biological differences that are relevant to the discussion. You wouldn't compare an 8 year old to a 28 year old for obvious reasons. The same logic, to a different degree, applies to comparing 18 year olds to 28 year olds or even 24 year olds.


Sure buddy, I'll let you think all you want. I'm sure somebody that posts here has far more knowledge than I do, and I'm sure this debate can swing more ways than what your presenting. I've mentioned up above, that I'm not a qualified person to say what some can do at 18 and what others cant. However from human experience I know that age is completely overrated. As people grow, and mature at a different rate. I'll let the experts here if there are any, weigh in on this. 




> I just told you why and you don't need to be a PhD to realize it. Hell, you can wikipedia it if you really wanted to waste your time. Or you could ask an MD, PhD, or take a course in neuropsychology. Either way you're going to get the same answers every single time; that there are biological thresholds that are reached entirely (or nearly entirely) dependent on age.


That may or may not be true. I doubt you are highly qualified though, to sum up the human biology in a couple sentences.



> No actually, I stated facts about how the human body and mind mature. If you want to refute that you're going to have to cite your sources, because I can easily cite mine. Can you? I'm going to guess no.


You may have stated facts that support your argument, I don't really doubt that, even though I'm not your fact checker, nor do I have the experience to say other wise. However I'm sure there are a lot of different vantage points, and arguments that could be supported that explain my position that you disagree with. However I'm not armed with that knowledge, hopefully there is some posters here that can weigh in on where I'm coming from.





> You are severely wrong about this and there's nothing anyone can do to help you believe otherwise. Tmac and KG's ages were *routinely* cited in Minny and Toronto by both media and fans. A theme throughout the 98 All Star game was the youth of KG and Kobe, for example. The amount of examples are endless.


The 98 All Star game is one year, LBJ has been in the league 6 years going on 7 years, and all we here about is his age. Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree once again, KG/Tmac ages and the fact they went prep to pro wasn't an on going conversation for 6 years of their career, and counting like it is for LeBron James.





> I dare you to find one thread comparing Tmac or KG's rookie season to rookies like Duncan (or anyone else who had 4 years of college ball and were 22 or older). It's insanely stupid to the nth degree and anyone who has made such comparisons have been resoundly laughed at or mocked.


I doubt I would find a thread like that in here, but I have been apart of threads where people compare KG to Duncan, and KG's age and the fact he went prep to pro wasn't used for his benefit in any debate. Instead what was discussed was their careers on a whole, and the merit of their basketball skills, and what they accomplished. Not the year on their birth certificate.





> This isn't creative writing, though on that front you'd fail miserably. The fact that you do not understand basic biology, though, is telling and doesn't require any originality whatsoever to understand.


Thanks man, considering I work in construction, and have been building houses since I was a teenager I never needed to be a creative writer, just able to visualize, read blue prints, and work my *** off, swing a hammer, and nail down a 16 penny. The fact I don't know a lot about biology is what to you Cap ? I mean are you going back to that persona of the dude with the pony tail again from that bar scene in Good Will Hunting ? Trying to show me your more intellectually superior ? And unoriginal ?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



lessthanjake said:


> By the way, saying that there will never be another Jordan is NOT the same as saying you're not as good as him. LeBron will never be another Jordan because his game is significantly different than Jordan's, not because he isnt as good.


Do you believe LeBron James is as good as Michael Jordan on defense ?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

By the way, I think Michael Jordan is better than LeBron James. However I Think Wilt Chamberlain was better than both of them. Check out the NBA History section, and look at my top 20 players of all time. You will notice LeBron James at this point in his career doesn't even crack it. Link provided. 

http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-history-aba-too/427483-top-20-players-all-time.html


----------



## Cap

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Sure buddy, I'll let you think all you want. I'm sure somebody that posts here has far more knowledge than I do, and I'm sure this debate can swing more ways than what your presenting. I've mentioned up above, that I'm not a qualified person to say what some can do at 18 and what others cant. However from human experience I know that age is completely overrated. As people grow, and mature at a different rate. I'll let the experts here if there are any, weigh in on this.
> 
> That may or may not be true. I doubt you are highly qualified though, to sum up the human biology in a couple sentences.


No one has to be expert to know that 18 year olds are basically never as physically strong or mature as they are at some point in their 20's. You don't have to be an expert to know that people generally physically peak by their early 30's and are probably fastest during their mid-20's. In fact, controlling for injuries, I can't think of a single player in NBA history that was physically stronger, better or more mature at 18 than they were in their mid-to-late-20's. That's why comparing by seasons means little in this debate. 



> You may have stated facts that support your argument, I don't really doubt that, even though I'm not your fact checker, nor do I have the experience to say other wise. However I'm sure there are a lot of different vantage points, and arguments that could be supported that explain my position that you disagree with. However I'm not armed with that knowledge, hopefully there is some posters here that can weigh in on where I'm coming from.


OK, but you know as well as I do that players don't peak at 18, or even 24. They peak by their late 20's and early 30's the vast, vast majority of the time. And most players improve relatively noticeably after their mid-20's, though it's not as steep an improvement as 18-25. 



> The 98 All Star game is one year, LBJ has been in the league 6 years going on 7 years, and all we here about is his age. Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree once again, KG/Tmac ages and the fact they went prep to pro wasn't an on going conversation for 6 years of their career, and counting like it is for LeBron James.


The 2002 All Star game where Kobe won the MVP was another example where people were saying "Wow, he's doing so much for someone so young". You honestly don't hear that all the time? It's standard fair. 



> I doubt I would find a thread like that in here, but I have been apart of threads where people compare KG to Duncan, and KG's age and the fact he went prep to pro wasn't used for his benefit in any debate. Instead what was discussed was their careers on a whole, and the merit of their basketball skills, and what they accomplished. Not the year on their birth certificate.
> 
> Thanks man, considering I work in construction, and have been building houses since I was a teenager I never needed to be a creative writer, just able to visualize, read blue prints, and work my *** off, swing a hammer, and nail down a 16 penny. The fact I don't know a lot about biology is what to you Cap ? I mean are you going back to that persona of the dude with the pony tail again from that bar scene in Good Will Hunting ? Trying to show me your more intellectually superior ? And unoriginal ?


Good Will Hunting was an awesome movie. At least we share common ground there!


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

All right, so let's compare both at the same age:

Michael Jordan at 24: 

*35 PPG*, 5.5 RPG, 5.9 APG, *3.2 SPG*, *1.6 BPG*, *54% FGP*, *84% FTP*, 17% 3PFGP (53 attempts)

LeBron James at 24:

28.4 PPG, *7.6 RPG*, *7.2 APG*, 1.7 SPG, 1.1 BPG, 49% FGP, 78% FTP, *34% 3PFGP* (384 attempts)

It's close. Jordan is the superior scorer and has superior defensive numbers. He was a better shooter from the field and from the line. LeBron has more assists and rebounds, and shot a higher percentage from behind the stripe (although Jordan only had 53 attempts). 

Both players had nondescript teammates. The second leading scorer on the Bulls was Sam Vincent. For the Cavs, Mo Williams. The Bulls lost in the ECSemis to the eventual EC Champs, 4-1. The Cavs lost to the EC Champs, Magic 4-2. 

The Eastern Conference in '88 had championship contenders in the Celtics with Bird at 30 PPG, anchoring a front line with Robert Parish and Kevin McHale. The Pistons were loaded 1 through 9, with leading scorers Adrian Dantley and Isaiah Thomas. 

The Eastern Conference in '09 featured the previous year's champion Celtics, as well as the Orlando Magic, the current East Coast champs. 

At the time, Jordan was considered to be an entertainer and great individual scorer. It was widely believed that scoring champs, especially guards, could not lead their teams to championships. He was more likely to be compared to Dr. J than to Magic and Bird, who were considered to be great "all around players" rather than "high flying entertainers."

In the current moment, LeBron is being criticized as a pampered crybaby with a strong sense of entitlement. 

Jordan was three seasons away from his first ring. It's unclear when LeBron will return to the finals, given the weak Cavs' roster. 

As I have said many times, it is too early to determine what LeBron's legacy will be. If we look at the history of previous comparisons, every last one has fizzled out:

1. Kobe: one regular season MVP at 28, accompanied by a loss in the NBA finals
2. Grant Hill: no rings, no mvp's and has never been the same after ankle surgery
3. Vince Carter. No comment
4. Jerry Stackhouse. No comment
5. Anfernee Hardaway. A terrific player who suffered serious injuries and was never the same player thereafter.

The latest is LeBron. History shows that it is unlikely he will measure up. But in fairness, it's too early to tell. In the meantime, enjoy watching this kid play. He is dominating in dazzling fashion.


----------



## CryingWolf

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> All right, so let's compare both at the same age:
> 
> Michael Jordan at 24:
> 
> *35 PPG*, 5.5 RPG, 5.9 APG, *3.2 SPG*, *1.6 BPG*, *54% FGP*, *84% FTP*, 17% 3PFGP (53 attempts)
> 
> LeBron James at 24:
> 
> 28.4 PPG, *7.6 RPG*, *7.2 APG*, 1.7 SPG, 1.1 BPG, 49% FGP, 78% FTP, *34% 3PFGP* (384 attempts)
> 
> It's close. Jordan is the superior scorer and has superior defensive numbers. He was a better shooter from the field and from the line. LeBron has more assists and rebounds, and shot a higher percentage from behind the stripe (although Jordan only had 53 attempts).
> 
> Both players had nondescript teammates. The second leading scorer on the Bulls was Sam Vincent. For the Cavs, Mo Williams. The Bulls lost in the ECSemis to the eventual EC Champs, 4-1. The Cavs lost to the EC Champs, Magic 4-2.
> 
> The Eastern Conference in '88 had championship contenders in the Celtics with Bird at 30 PPG, anchoring a front line with Robert Parish and Kevin McHale. The Pistons were loaded 1 through 9, with leading scorers Adrian Dantley and Isaiah Thomas.
> 
> The Eastern Conference in '09 featured the previous year's champion Celtics, as well as the Orlando Magic, the current East Coast champs.
> 
> At the time, Jordan was considered to be an entertainer and great individual scorer. It was widely believed that scoring champs, especially guards, could not lead their teams to championships. He was more likely to be compared to Dr. J than to Magic and Bird, who were considered to be great "all around players" rather than "high flying entertainers."
> 
> In the current moment, LeBron is being criticized as a pampered crybaby with a strong sense of entitlement.
> 
> Jordan was three seasons away from his first ring. It's unclear when LeBron will return to the finals, given the weak Cavs' roster.
> 
> As I have said many times, it is too early to determine what LeBron's legacy will be. If we look at the history of previous comparisons, every last one has fizzled out:
> 
> 1. Kobe: one regular season MVP at 28, accompanied by a loss in the NBA finals
> 2. Grant Hill: no rings, no mvp's and has never been the same after ankle surgery
> 3. Vince Carter. No comment
> 4. Jerry Stackhouse. No comment
> 5. Anfernee Hardaway. A terrific player who suffered serious injuries and was never the same player thereafter.
> 
> The latest is LeBron. History shows that it is unlikely he will measure up. But in fairness, it's too early to tell. In the meantime, enjoy watching this kid play. He is dominating in dazzling fashion.


That is a very good and reasoned post. Repped.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



> Cap;5992970]No one has to be expert to know that 18 year olds are basically never as physically strong or mature as they are at some point in their 20's. You don't have to be an expert to know that people generally physically peak by their early 30's and are probably fastest during their mid-20's. In fact, controlling for injuries, I can't think of a single player in NBA history that was physically stronger, better or more mature at 18 than they were in their mid-to-late-20's. That's why comparing by seasons means little in this debate.


I'm not contesting that at all what you wrote up above. My point is that some 18 year olds body and mind are far more advanced than other 18 year olds. So for some going prep to pro, it make sense. While for others it doesn't. That's not to say the teenager that entered the NBA from high school wont grow and get stronger physically and mentally. No, what I'm saying is that it might take another individual at 18 a few more years to fill out their body, and become mature enough to handle becoming a professional. I recognize what your saying. I just think we disagree on some key aspects is all. Essentially what I'm saying is that you take a 21 year old that needed say 3 extra years to get bigger stronger, and hone their skills, so when they enter the NBA draft they have a shot of making them selves a career.

Yet IMO LeBron James didn't need to take any extra time to do that, even though his birth certificate states he's only 18 years old, his body and physical strength were at a level where he could compete, his skills were already so defined he could translate his game in the NBA from high school, and he was much much more mature than most 18 year olds. So I don't give LBJ any more credit, and I don't take any credit from him either. I see he' was NBA ready out of high school, just like when it takes a guy to become NBA ready out of college, or from another country, it takes what it takes, but once they are being paid like a professional, I judge them as one. Nothing more, nothing less. So essentially IMO the guy that went to college, and the guy that comes from over seas, has nothing on LBJ. It just took them the road to get to that level. Where for LBJ it simply took 18 years. 




> OK, but you know as well as I do that players don't peak at 18, or even 24. They peak by their late 20's and early 30's the vast, vast majority of the time. And most players improve relatively noticeably after their mid-20's, though it's not as steep an improvement as 18-25.


I was never disputing when a player peaks or doesn't peak. I can careless about that personally. I appreciate players early on, on the up , at their peak, and when they slow down, until they retire. If a guy decided to go pro as a teenager I say more power to them. If a guy decided to go to college for 4 years i say more power to him. They all need to take the course best for them. However I'm not going to penalize anyone or give anyone any breaks because of the year it say's they were born on their birth certificate. I'm going to rate every player once they start making millions as a paid professional athlete the same across the board.





> The 2002 All Star game where Kobe won the MVP was another example where people were saying "Wow, he's doing so much for someone so young". You honestly don't hear that all the time? It's standard fair.


I guess will just have to agree to disagree, my contention is that none of the guys that have gone prep to pro have had their age discussed ad nauseam like LeBron James supporters/media have talked about his. Dude is going to be 25 next year and in his 7th season. Sorry I just can careless about his age, and am more concerned about the basketball he plays, and every other NBA player from the past, present, and in the future. 





> Good Will Hunting was an awesome movie. At least we share common ground there!


Well as you can tell from me posting the video, it's always been one of my favorites as well. So at least we can agree about something for once!

One other side note -

Not that I think Michael Jordan should of or could of come out of high school to the pros. But who knows what an MJ would be like if he came out of the 2000s, in stead of the 80s.

One thing is for sure, even though there has been a handful of guys to go prep to pro I believe it was like 5 that did it before KG. The prep to pro thing got a bit crazy in the 2000s. You had a large influx of guy's entering the NBA from high school well over 20. Many of which that are playing in the NBA today, but you don't hear much about their ages, or the fact they went prep to pro.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> As I have said many times, it is too early to determine what LeBron's legacy will be. If we look at the history of previous comparisons, every last one has fizzled out:
> 
> 1. Kobe: one regular season MVP at 28, accompanied by a loss in the NBA finals
> 2. Grant Hill: no rings, no mvp's and has never been the same after ankle surgery
> 3. Vince Carter. No comment
> 4. Jerry Stackhouse. No comment
> 5. Anfernee Hardaway. A terrific player who suffered serious injuries and was never the same player thereafter.
> 
> The latest is LeBron. History shows that it is unlikely he will measure up. But in fairness, it's too early to tell. In the meantime, enjoy watching this kid play. He is dominating in dazzling fashion.


with the exception of kobe, none of them were remotely closely compared to jordan. the gap was large. none except kobe accomplished anywhere near what lebron already has. and to say kobe has fizzled out is a bit of a stretch. he hasn't reached jordan status, but he's going to finish his career pretty high on the list. there are actually very few players who have played at lebron's level, accomplished what he's already accomplished, viewed as he's viewed, who didn't fulfill most of their promise.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

23aj - if jordan did come to the nba straight out of hs, and his first 3 years in the nba looked like say kobe's first 3, and the rest of his career was exactly like he actually performed, would you rank him lower? if he has 3 years up front in his career where he wasn't great, and then another 2 years at the back end, would you think less of his career, of him as a player?


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

They certainly were not. But that does not mean that the comparison was not made nonetheless. ESPN even wrote a feature on Vince Carter inviting comparison between the two. Isaiah Thomas stated during a broadcast: "Kobe has a chance to be what Michael is."
Even though in hindsight these comparisons sound ridiculous, they were made nonetheless.

Sports Illustrated also compared Allen Iverson very favorably to Michael Jordan early on in AI's career. It was a serious comparison. 

It happens all the time. Jordan is the benchmark. When another top notch 2 guard or small forward enters the association, he will inevitably be compared to Jordan, and not to LeBron. 

The point being, Jordan has been and continues to be the benchmark, not LeBron or Kobe. Why? Jordan is not only the greatest baller, but arguably the greatest athlete from a team sport in history. 

Does LeBron have a chance to catch or surpass Jordan? Perhaps, but it's highly unlikely. 



kflo said:


> with the exception of kobe, none of them were remotely closely compared to jordan. the gap was large. none except kobe accomplished anywhere near what lebron already has. and to say kobe has fizzled out is a bit of a stretch. he hasn't reached jordan status, but he's going to finish his career pretty high on the list. there are actually very few players who have played at lebron's level, accomplished what he's already accomplished, viewed as he's viewed, who didn't fulfill most of their promise.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> It happens all the time. Jordan is the benchmark. When another top notch 2 guard or small forward enters the association, he will inevitably be compared to Jordan, and not to LeBron.


for now, yes. but when lebron's career is over, that very well might not be the case anymore.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

It's a valid point. Which is why I compared both players at the same age. 

On a different note, it's informative that Jordan at 24 was being compared primarily to Dr. J and Dominique Wilkins. 

So add AI and Dominique to the list of players who have been compared to Jordan and have been considered "Jordan-esque." As history has shown, none of the comparisons holds water. 



kflo said:


> 23aj - if jordan did come to the nba straight out of hs, and his first 3 years in the nba looked like say kobe's first 3, and the rest of his career was exactly like he actually performed, would you rank him lower? if he has 3 years up front in his career where he wasn't great, and then another 2 years at the back end, would you think less of his career, of him as a player?


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

It's a possibility, but it's highly unlikely. My prediction is that LeBron will remain dominant until 28, 29 and then the wheels will begin to come off. His reliance on his athleticism will lead to a significant amount of wear and tear, and his performance will suffer. 

Although some on this board have compared LeBron to Karl Malone, those two players obviously don't/didn't play the same position. Karl Malone didn't have the responsibility of bringing up the ball or running the offense, and typically he was the recipient of an on the dime pass off a pick and roll from Stockton.

LeBron typically has much more work to do: he runs the offense, and then slashes to the basket from the top of the key with the entire defense focused on him. Then, he tries to finish every time in spectacular fashion. This will take a toll. It did for Jordan, and he never weighed more than 215. LeBron is 260 and will likely stay at that weight or gain some.

Also, in the second half of his career, Malone was a spot up jump shooter. LeBron is not a proficient jump shooter. 

He will have to alter his game considerably over time to remain effective. And in order to get back into the running for a ring, he needs a lot of help from Cavs' management. 

When LeBron is 28 or 29, we will once again be left with a sober understanding of just how lofty a standard Jordan set.

In the meantime, enjoy the kid's play while he is at his physical peak. 



rocketeer said:


> for now, yes. but when lebron's career is over, that very well might not be the case anymore.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

kflo, 

If you are going to minimize or overlook the resume of a player when they were young, presumably to overlook lower productivity, shouldn't you also subtract their accomplishments as well? For example, would you deduct Kobe Bryant's or Lebron James' numbers during their first three or four years from their career totals since Jordan didn't have an opportunity to accumulate points, assists, etc. during that time?

If so, you would also have to deduct over 4,000 career points from Kobe's ledger since Jordan was in college during his first three years. For LeBron, you would deduct 6,300 points from his career totals.

These players can't have it both ways. On the one hand, they receive credit for their points and rings (if applicable) during the first part of their careers. Therefore, any shortcomings or deficiencies in their games are also noteworthy and cannot be dismissed. 

Furthermore, Jordan was an early entry by the standards of his day, as was Magic. It was customary for players to stay all four years in college at that time. So, should Jordan's first year statistics be dismissed also? 

Overall, it's not really relevant, as the probability of any player winning six consecutive rings in the future with six finals mvp's is quite remote. That, along with ten scoring titles, five regular season mvp's, defensive player of the year award, 9 time all defense, dunk championships, and so on. 



kflo said:


> 23aj - if jordan did come to the nba straight out of hs, and his first 3 years in the nba looked like say kobe's first 3, and the rest of his career was exactly like he actually performed, would you rank him lower? if he has 3 years up front in his career where he wasn't great, and then another 2 years at the back end, would you think less of his career, of him as a player?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> kflo,
> 
> If you are going to minimize or overlook the resume of a player when they were young, presumably to overlook lower productivity, shouldn't you also subtract their accomplishments as well? For example, would you deduct Kobe Bryant's or Lebron James' numbers during their first three or four years from their career totals since Jordan didn't have an opportunity to accumulate points, assists, etc. during that time?
> 
> If so, you would also have to deduct over 4,000 career points from Kobe's ledger since Jordan was in college during his first three years. For LeBron, you would deduct 6,300 points from his career totals.
> 
> These players can't have it both ways. On the one hand, they receive credit for their points and rings (if applicable) during the first part of their careers. Therefore, any shortcomings or deficiencies in their games are also noteworthy and cannot be dismissed.
> 
> Furthermore, Jordan was an early entry by the standards of his day, as was Magic. It was customary for players to stay all four years in college at that time. So, should Jordan's first year statistics be dismissed also?
> 
> Overall, it's not really relevant, as the probability of any player winning six consecutive rings in the future with six finals mvp's is quite remote. That, along with ten scoring titles, five regular season mvp's, defensive player of the year award, 9 time all defense, dunk championships, and so on.


no one is dismissing stats or seasons.

the point is what do you judge players on. when discussing jordan are his years in washington really relevant? does anyone care what hakeem did in toronto? or karl malone away from the jazz? does anyone care that kobe averaged under 8 points a game his rookie year? the answer to all those questions is no, no one really cares about any of those things. they aren't important. what is important is how well they played at their peak and how long they played at that level. that's what people really remember and judge players on.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

Oh, I absolutely agree, you should judge a player's legacy based upon their peak years of performance. Therefore, since Kobe was less productive and dominant at 21, 22, and 23 when he won his rings, he receives less credit for his rings than:

a. Shaq, who was in his prime and won his rings at 27, 28, and 29 and was clearly the most dominant player, and
b. Jordan, who also won his first three rings at 27, 28, and 29, when he was much more dominant and experienced then he was early on his career.

Or, do you say Kobe receives as much credit for the rings as Shaq, and was as valuable as Jordan to his bulls?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> Oh, I absolutely agree, you should judge a player's legacy based upon their peak years of performance. Therefore, since Kobe was less productive and dominant at 21, 22, and 23 when he won his rings, he receives less credit for his rings than:
> 
> a. Shaq, who was in his prime and won his rings at 27, 28, and 29 and was clearly the most dominant player, and
> b. Jordan, who also won his first three rings at 27, 28, and 29, when he was much more dominant and experienced then he was early on his career.
> 
> Or, do you say Kobe receives as much credit for the rings as Shaq, and was as valuable as Jordan to his bulls?


shaq was the best player on those laker teams. kobe wasn't too far behind in 2nd though.

and i don't really judge individuals on their number of rings.


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

I don't understand the point of bringing up guys who may have in some way been compared to jordan who were never near as good as lebron IS NOW. Seriously, what's the point? Guys who never reached lebrons level are not relevant. That they never reached jordan level shouldn't have surprised anyone - they were mostly never considered a threat to be as good, nor did they play up to a standard lebron is already at (kobe arguably the lone exception). The guys who didn't live up to it weren't expected to, and were never this good. It makes them not very relevant.

And I don't care much for career totals in evaluating players.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

The point is that Jordan has been the benchmark for all great 2's and 3's. He continues to be. I doubt LeBron will be. He isn't now and likely won't be in the future. Why? He isn't as good. His fundamentals are lacking: he travels far too often, his jump shot is ugly, and he relies on size and strength as much as skill. 

He's a great passer, a very good rebounder for a 3, and dominates games. But again, it's based as much on sheer size, strength, leaping ability and athleticism, as it is on skill. 

As Jerry West stated, Jordan's fundamentals were the best ever. 

Let's see what the future holds. I doubt LeBron is going to be used as the standard by which to gauge the greatness of future players.


----------



## michelangelo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

My point is that Kobe's legacy, if it is based on his three rings, is less impressive than Shaq's or Jordan's since he was not at his best, and therefore his contribution was not as great. 



rocketeer said:


> shaq was the best player on those laker teams. kobe wasn't too far behind in 2nd though.
> 
> and i don't really judge individuals on their number of rings.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

lebron doesn't believe in failing..... He said in his interview, that after losing to the Magic he couldn't shake their hands or face them because he's a Winner. 


Michael Jordan: "i have failed over and over and over again...... and thats why.... i succeed"


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> lebron doesn't believe in failing..... He said in his interview, that after losing to the Magic he couldn't shake their hands or face them because he's a Winner.
> 
> 
> Michael Jordan: "i have failed over and over and over again...... and thats why.... i succeed"


saying he's a winner means that he doesn't believe in failing?

and some lame jordan cliche proves some point about him and lebron?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



michelangelo said:


> My point is that Kobe's legacy, if it is based on his three rings, is less impressive than Shaq's or Jordan's since he was not at his best, and therefore his contribution was not as great.


if you're judging an individual player's legacy on the number of rings they win, you're doing it wrong.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> saying he's a winner means that he doesn't believe in failing?
> 
> and some lame jordan cliche proves some point about him and lebron?



Maybe your not aware of the hottest topic in sports right now is LeBron James being a complete douche bag by walking off the court, and showing zero class, and having no humility in defeat. Naw he just rather take pictures, pose/posture, and do his pom pom dances, and of course wait for the other teams he beat in the playoffs to congratulate him. 

Jordan who was routinely beat by the Pistons for a few seasons, stayed on the court took his lumps like a man, and never ran away from his failures. He lost with grace and honor. Can't say the same about LeBron James.

But yeah rocket man for you its just some lame cliche, and what LBJ did and said is some how justifiable in your head. So keep on believing that junk till your dead, won't change the perception of us fans who expect sportsmanship in defeat.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



23AJ said:


> Maybe your not aware of the hottest topic in sports right now is LeBron James being a complete douche bag by walking off the court, and showing zero class, and having no humility in defeat. Naw he just rather take pictures, pose/posture, and do his pom pom dances, and of course wait for the other teams he beat in the playoffs to congratulate him.
> 
> Jordan who was routinely beat by the Pistons for a few seasons, stayed on the court took his lumps like a man, and never ran away from his failures. He lost with grace and honor. Can't say the same about LeBron James.
> 
> But yeah rocket man for you its just some lame cliche, and what LBJ did and said is some how justifiable in your head. So keep on believing that junk till your dead, won't change the perception of us fans who expect sportsmanship in defeat.


did i ever say that what lebron did was justifiable? nope. i've said that it was a bad decision by lebron, but i can't understand why it's a huge deal. it shouldn't be some massive news story. it was a bad decision by lebron and then an even worse decision by him to offer some lame excuse about it, but there really is no reason for it to be a hot topic. stern should have fined him for skipping the press conference(i know that he didn't) and it should be done with.

but i still don't know what your quotes have to do with anything. lebron saying that he's a winner doesn't say anything about his thoughts on failure. he interpreting that to mean that he doesn't believe in failing is just stupid and there's no reason for it. if lebron said he doesn't believe in failing, maybe you'd have something.

and yes, your dumb jordan cliche is pointless. you expecting sportsmanship in defeat changes nothing about lebron james the player, it's just something people who already have something against him will latch onto like everything else. and please don't tell me you're going to pull a dnko and start talking about how classy jordan was.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



rocketeer said:


> did i ever say that what lebron did was justifiable? nope. i've said that it was a bad decision by lebron, but i can't understand why it's a huge deal. it shouldn't be some massive news story. it was a bad decision by lebron and then an even worse decision by him to offer some lame excuse about it, but there really is no reason for it to be a hot topic. stern should have fined him for skipping the press conference(i know that he didn't) and it should be done with.
> 
> but i still don't know what your quotes have to do with anything. lebron saying that he's a winner doesn't say anything about his thoughts on failure. he interpreting that to mean that he doesn't believe in failing is just stupid and there's no reason for it. if lebron said he doesn't believe in failing, maybe you'd have something.
> 
> and yes, your dumb jordan cliche is pointless. you expecting sportsmanship in defeat changes nothing about lebron james the player, it's just something people who already have something against him will latch onto like everything else. and please don't tell me you're going to pull a dnko and start talking about how classy jordan was.


Obviously we disagree, even though your persona here is well documented that you like to disagree about everything, and be very contrary, but moving on..

The reason it's a big deal, is because you don't act like an *** clown for an entire season, dancing, posturing, doing pom pom dances, and so forth and disrespecting your opponents. Secondly LeBron James went on record, and said for the teams/players that have a problem with us "having fun" on the court with our dances/posturing/etc do something about it to change it. Well that happened, instead of LeBron James showing a little bit of decency for once, and humility in defeat, he took his ball and ran ****ing home. 

Than to add insult to injury to the fiasco, he comes out and say's he can't shake the hands of other players when he loses, because he's a winner. He say's that doesn't make sense. I think we are discovering something about LeBron, with this fiasco, and his actions last season walking off the Boston court when the series ended with out giving any respect to his opponent. The discovery is LeBron James is a poor sport, who couldn't congratulate not only a better team, but a friend of his ( Dwight Howard), and of course he couldn't handle his critics firing questions at him at the end of the game. GO figure! However he's the first to run out there for the media when he Wins!

It may not be a big deal to you, sportsmanship may not be a big deal that's fine, but it does to a lot of other people who teach it and believe in the principal of sportsmanship, as a core value in their lives. Hence why it's routinely done, and taught to the youth at such an early age. 

I'll try and find that quote for you where LBJ and the Cavs players responded to the likes of the media when asked about their pre game rituals and on the court mannerisms about it being offensive to the other teams and players. 

But uh yeah LeBron is a competitor...

And it's not a dumb cliche, you saying it is.. is actually the cliche and joke. Because what Jordan said has substance to it, and many people who are trying to achieve success will have to have failures before ever flying . Also the quote LeBron James said about him being a winner so he can't show sportsmanship is enough for anyone with a couple brain cells to understand the following .... 


lebron doesn't believe in failing..... He said in his interview, that after losing to the Magic he couldn't shake their hands or face them because he's a Winner. 


Michael Jordan: "i have failed over and over and over again...... and thats why.... i succeed"


----------



## kflo

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

it means NOTHING in terms of how good they are or how good lebron can be. why is that so hard to understand? it speaks to lebron's character, sure, but NOTHING to his ability as a player or even as a teammate. what more do you want it to say? jordan was a great man and lebron a dick? if that's your belief, that's fine (although not sure what you'd be basing it on other than some soundbites). but if you're trying to attach it to their level of play, it's meaningless. fact is lebron appears to be respected and liked in his own lockerroom, and by his peers, and that matters alot more than his actions here (although his actions were poor). 

btw, i know you rank isiah pretty high. how much do you ding him for walking off the court? didn't bird do the same as well? it's a dick thing to do, for sure, but what does it really mean? i just don't see how you can use it to disparage someone as a player. 



michelangelo said:


> You don't need an "incredible understanding." His teammates couldn't go a day without Michael trying to outcompete them at EVERYTHING. Ping Pong. A sprint after practice. A card game. Buzz Peterson claims that Jordan wouldn't speak to his family after Peterson's mom beat Jordan at a game of "Go Fish!" Obviously, this got him into trouble with gambling and shady characters. When Magic was on The Dream Team, he reported getting sick of Jordan bragging endlessly about his championships or his inability to stop competing against his teammates at cards.


and yes, jordan was always gracious.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

A player isn't measured by his rings, mvp's, 1st teams, defensive teams, all-star games, etc. The most important measurement when evaluating a player, is his on court production.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*



kflo said:


> it means NOTHING in terms of how good they are or how good lebron can be. why is that so hard to understand? it speaks to lebron's character, sure, but NOTHING to his ability as a player or even as a teammate. what more do you want it to say? jordan was a great man and lebron a dick? if that's your belief, that's fine (although not sure what you'd be basing it on other than some soundbites). but if you're trying to attach it to their level of play, it's meaningless. fact is lebron appears to be respected and liked in his own lockerroom, and by his peers, and that matters alot more than his actions here (although his actions were poor).
> 
> btw, i know you rank isiah pretty high. how much do you ding him for walking off the court? didn't bird do the same as well? it's a dick thing to do, for sure, but what does it really mean? i just don't see how you can use it to disparage someone as a player.
> 
> 
> 
> and yes, jordan was always gracious.


I wasn't trying to attach it to their level of play. I mentioned it, because I believe in this thread I said earlier, although it could of been in another thread, that LeBron James has plenty of hurdles he needs to get over, posting one of the best PER's is nice and all, but it didn't really get them to achieve their goal. That's a failure, wether you lose in the 1st round, 2nd round, 3rd round, or in the finals. To me LBJ has a lot of hurdles to get over before he starts winning NBA titles. One of them is learning to accept failure with humility grace and honor. 

Bird isn't right for doing it either. However at least he didn't duck the media, and make excuses the next day about his actions. Can't say the same for LeBron James, who not only ducked the media, and made excuses the following day, but this is also becoming a pattern, as he also ran off the court against the Boston Celtics in the 2nd round in the playoffs last year as well, with out giving a congratulatory hand shake and good will at the end of the series, like he did against the Magic. Also have you ever read the book the Drive ? I really recommended it, it's by Bird about his life, and NBA career. It will give you some good insights on him, and the player he was. I wouldn't dare compare LBJ to Larry Legend at this point in his career for any reason.

As far as the Pistons in the 1991 ECF's, I have always been critical of the players especially Zeke for walking off the court, and being disrespectful, and yes because Isiah did that, he came down a couple pegs in my eyes. Although he definitely tried to restore his image after his retirement when he was broadcasting, by praising Jordan every chance he could get, but I never bought it.


----------



## DNKO

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

That's right Nightmute

Prepare the turf for....wait for it...........3...2..1.....Hollinger!


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: So who here has realized that LeBron is going to pass Jordan?*

:frenchy:I don't get.


----------



## duncan2k5

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



JC.McFly said:


> One more thing about that, we all knew coming into that series it was going to be Lakers offense vs. Boston defense, and we know who prevailed. It was the best of both conferences, it's not like they were playing the Spurs cause we already know Kobe has a better team.


kobe had a better team than LEBRON...not the celtics...we are comparing lebron's performance vs kobe's...


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



duncan2k5 said:


> kobe had a better team than LEBRON...not the celtics...we are comparing lebron's performance vs kobe's...


you ****ing suck.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: Jordan on him vs. Kobe: "In my prime, not even a contest."*



duncan2k5 said:


> kobe had a better team than LEBRON...not the celtics...we are comparing lebron's performance vs kobe's...


really? are you serious?


----------



## Luke

*Kobe and LeBron VS. Jordan and Pippen*

Which would you rather start a team with?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Kobe and LeBron VS. Jordan and Pippen*

Kobe and LeBron.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Kobe and LeBron VS. Jordan and Pippen*

IMO a better question would be Jordan and Hakeem versus Kobe and LeBron. As Hakeem was generally considered the second best player behind Jordan in the NBA for the 90s with (Malone, Barkley, Shaq, D. Robinson, Drexler) close behind. Pippen is a great player, but not on the level of Kobe and Bron, so Jordan is at a disadvantage. You have to give Jordan an all time great, like you give Kobe and Bron to make it fair.


----------



## TheVincanity

*Re: Kobe and LeBron VS. Jordan and Pippen*

Kobe And Lebron


----------



## Chan Ho Nam

*Re: Kobe and LeBron VS. Jordan and Pippen*

there was a 20 something long thread about this, if Kobe and Lebron played a pick up 2v2 with Mike and Scottie

but i would rather start Jordan/Pippen on my team because they actually have chemistry


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe and LeBron VS. Jordan and Pippen*



23AJ said:


> IMO a better question would be Jordan and Hakeem versus Kobe and LeBron. As Hakeem was generally considered the second best player behind Jordan in the NBA for the 90s with (Malone, Barkley, Shaq, D. Robinson, Drexler) close behind. Pippen is a great player, but not on the level of Kobe and Bron, so Jordan is at a disadvantage. You have to give Jordan an all time great, like you give Kobe and Bron to make it fair.


That wouldn't really be fair though. Jordan and Hakeem both are better then Kobe/LeBron, and Hakeem plays a more important position. It would be Jordan/Hakeem in a landslide.

How about Jordan/Malone (Karl) VS Kobe/LeBron?


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: Kobe and LeBron VS. Jordan and Pippen*

better question would be prime lebron/shaq and prime kobe/olajuwon.


----------



## EGarrett

*Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Perhaps the first of many Jordan records Kobe will surpass? Or a testament to his extreme good fortune in coaches and teammates?


----------



## Dre

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

:sarcasm: What's the win total again?

FOH


----------



## Diable

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

How many times was Jordan the best player on his team?


----------



## Dre

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

lol..old Mike Greenberg ass fool...


----------



## mysterio

*Kobe vs. Magic*

Michael Wilbon (I think) just claimed Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time, ahead of Magic. Really?


----------



## LA68

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

As long as Kobe doesn't have to sit out two years for gambling with mobsters, he just might end up with more rings than the other guy....


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Diable said:


> How many times was Jordan the best player on his team?


What does that matter?


----------



## Dre

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

:sarcasm: C'mon Son...


----------



## TheDarkPrince

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



EGarrett said:


> Perhaps the first of many Jordan records Kobe will surpass? Or a testament to his extreme good fortune in coaches and teammates?


Kobe has a lot of work to do and he's not getting any younger.

MJ had 10 scoring titles to Kobes what,1?

MJ had 5 MVP's to Kobe's 1. 

MJ had 6 finals MVp's, to Kobes 2 (Which Gasol should have won this years)


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Jordan fanboys are going to start slitting their own throats if Kobe ends up with 7 rings.


----------



## Dee-Zy

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Gasol did not deserve Finals MVP maybe Playoff MVP but def not Finals MVP


----------



## Game3525

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Dee-Zy said:


> Gasol did not deserve Finals MVP maybe Playoff MVP but def not Finals MVP


Not even that, Pau was the man in the 1st round, but Kobe is the guy who dominated the next two rounds. The Finals MVP is clearly Kobe Bryant, no question about it.


----------



## GTA Addict

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

That was Marc Jackson. Wilbon believes MJ, Magic, and Bird are in a tier of their own.

I still think Magic is greater by a safe margin, but Kobe still has time as he's "only" 31... and to think that Magic had to retire at 31...


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

Kobe's the third best perimeter player of all time behind Magic and Jordan. There's no disputing that at this point.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



EGarrett said:


> Perhaps the first of many *Jordan records *Kobe will surpass? Or a testament to his extreme good fortune in coaches and teammates?


Never knew that Jordan's 6 appearances was a _record_...


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



TheDarkPrince said:


> MJ had 6 finals MVp's, to Kobes 2 (Which Gasol should have won this years)


That's an absurd statement. Did you watch the first 6 games of this series?

And even tonight is debatable. Kobe was 23/15 and Pau was 19/18. Pau shot horribly and Kobe shot worse. Ron might have been the best player on the floor tonight.

Kobe was hands-down MVP.


----------



## BG7

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Kobe is just too far behind Jordan in individual accomplishment to surpass Jordan. It's like Bill Russell kind of. The guy wasn't all that great of a player, and it's ridiculous that he is put so high on all time greats list just for winning championships as a testament of being on great teams. Although Kobe is a lot better individual player than Russell.

Kobe has won 2 championships as the main man. Shaq was definitely the lead sled dog for the first three. Kobe is definitely very accomplished individually and team wise. I think he has solidified his spot in the top 10, but he is too far behind MJ to catch up at this point imo.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Kobe has won two championships as the main man, but none of the five would have been possible without him.

Let's not forget Shaq had already made the Finals once before with a prime Penny Hardaway.

Let's not start overrating Shaq here. Kobe has cemented that he is going down as a greater player than Shaq.


----------



## BG7

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Pay Ton said:


> Kobe has won two championships as the main man, but none of the five would have been possible without him.
> 
> Let's not forget Shaq had already made the Finals once before with a prime Penny Hardaway.
> 
> Let's not start overrating Shaq here. Kobe has cemented that he is going down as a greater player than Shaq.


Shaq averaged 30/15 two years straight in the playoffs. That is dominant. Kobe was needed for them to win, but replace Kobe with a decent second tier player, and the Lakers still probably win 2-3 championships in the early 2000's based around Shaq. Obviously if you just take Kobe ou and don't replace him, they are probably not winning those titles, but replace Kobe with a decent player, and I thin kthe Lakers still win a few championships.


----------



## Drewbs

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

i remember back during the days when we were arguing kobe vs. tmac, pierce, carter, etc.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



BG7 said:


> Shaq averaged 30/15 two years straight in the playoffs. That is dominant. Kobe was needed for them to win, but replace Kobe with a decent second tier player, and the Lakers still probably win 2-3 championships in the early 2000's based around Shaq. Obviously if you just take Kobe ou and don't replace him, they are probably not winning those titles, but replace Kobe with a decent player, and I thin kthe Lakers still win a few championships.


Shaq was dominant. But that is always going to be the best compliment he ever gets in his career.

He wasn't a great teammate. He wasn't the best Laker. He wasn't the best Center. He wasn't anything but a dominant force. Good for him. 



BG7 said:


> Shaq averaged 30/15 two years straight in the playoffs. That is dominant. Kobe was needed for them to win, but replace Kobe with a decent second tier player,


Sort of like a prime Penny? Come on man. Shaq was a joke of a teammate, even when the Lakers did win championships. It was just masked by the fact that they were winning.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

LOL at people who think 3 of those rings were not because of Shaq. Get a grip with reality people. In the end, Kobe got his first 3 rings because of shaq. Jordan may have been the main man and yes having Pippen helped, but lets not forget that Jordan was what Shaq was for 6 years.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Sorry to say, but a guy like T-Mac, Pierce, and Vince would have gotten 3 rings alongside Shaq also. Pierce and T-Mac moreso because of their unselfishness and willingness to defer to teammates, they might have won that 4th. Not to say Kobe isn't a great player. He has both team and individual accomplishments, but he's not reaching Jordan. 

Robert "I'm 7 for 7 in the Finals" Horry is not impressed


----------



## Pinball

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Spaceman Spiff said:


> Sorry to say, but a guy like T-Mac, Pierce, and Vince would have gotten 3 rings alongside Shaq also. Pierce and T-Mac moreso because of their unselfishness and willingness to defer to teammates, they might have won that 4th. Not to say Kobe isn't a great player. He has both team and individual accomplishments, but he's not reaching Jordan.
> 
> Robert "I'm 7 for 7 in the Finals" Horry is not impressed


I'll give you Pierce but don't give me Wince Carter and second round virgin as guys that would win multiple championships with Shaq. Shaq was the best player on the court but Kobe wasn't just a spectator standing in the corner waiting for Shaq to pass him the ball. He was the best playmaker, defender, and closer on the team. Shaq dominated throughout the game but in the fourth quarter Kobe took over. The only player you mentioned that was anywhere close to as complete as Kobe was Pierce.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

I really wish people would look at the boxscores of the first three championships so they can see how poorly Kobe played in several of those game.


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

The same goes both ways.

You replace Shaq with Duncan, Garnett or another top big man and Kobe would have had titles without Shaq as well. If fact, Kobe + another elite big man would win more titles than Shaq + another elite wing IMO.


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



BG7 said:


> Shaq averaged 30/15 two years straight in the playoffs. That is dominant. Kobe was needed for them to win, but replace Kobe with a decent second tier player, and the Lakers still probably win 2-3 championships in the early 2000's based around Shaq. Obviously if you just take Kobe ou and don't replace him, they are probably not winning those titles, but replace Kobe with a decent player, and I thin kthe Lakers still win a few championships.


This is where you are wrong IMO. Kobe was vital against the tougher teams the Lakers faced in the Western conference. Especially when you account for the fact that Shaq was ineffective late in close games. Without Kobe, Shaq might have gotten out of the Western conference a few of those years, even with a different star guard.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Spaceman Spiff said:


> Sorry to say, but a guy like T-Mac, Pierce, and Vince would have gotten 3 rings alongside Shaq also.


are we honestly still having these arguments?


----------



## Pinball

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Knicks4life said:


> I really wish people would look at the boxscores of the first three championships so they can see how poorly Kobe played in several of those game.


Everyone has bad games but I will agree that Kobe's Finals' statistics are not stellar. He's been in seven Finals and had some stellar games but I don't think he's had more than one great game in any of the series. His other playoff numbers are much more impressive.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

You could have put *anyone* with Shaquille those three years and they would have won the title. Kobe could *never* lead a team to a title.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

At the very least Kobe would be in the convo of top 10 all time


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

For the delusional folks, was Kobe the best player on those Shaq-Kobe teams?


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Kenneth said:


> The same goes both ways.
> 
> You replace Shaq with Duncan, Garnett or another top big man and Kobe would have had titles without Shaq as well. If fact, Kobe + another elite big man would win more titles than Shaq + another elite wing IMO.


Except Shaq would be playing in the league at that point too.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> For the delusional folks, was Kobe the best player on those Shaq-Kobe teams?


In 2001 and 2002, it's definitely arguable.


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

You know you can rewrite history if you like...you can call Shaq a douche, an *******, a lazy bum and all that good stuff, but you cannot, I repeat cannot deny the fact that the guy was the one that presented teams with headaches. He was the one that teams set out to stop, kind of how teams are trying to game plan for Kobe now. Lol at folks like Pay Ton tossing out 'dominance' like some label. This guy was destroying front courts. No easy task.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> For the delusional folks, was Kobe the best player on those Shaq-Kobe teams?


He was the 2nd best player. Who cares? It's actually impressive that he has 3 titles as a 2nd option and 2 titles as a 1st option, in two different roles. He was Scottie Pippen for 3 titles and Michael Jordan for 2 titles (so far). In both situations he was a top 5 player despite having a different set of responsibilities.


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Sir Patchwork said:


> He was the 2nd best player. Who cares? It's actually impressive that he has 3 titles as a 2nd option and 2 titles as a 1st option, in two different roles. He was Scottie Pippen for 3 titles and Michael Jordan for 2 titles (so far). In both situations he was a top 5 player despite having a different set of responsibilities.


Well when it does come to comparing him to Jordan, it makes sense no? Do you recall Jordan playing second fiddle to anyone?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> Well when it does come to comparing him to Jordan, it makes sense no? Do you recall Jordan playing second fiddle to anyone?


He would have played 2nd fiddle to Shaquille, according to Phil.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Pay Ton said:


> Shaq was dominant. But that is always going to be the best compliment he ever gets in his career.
> 
> He wasn't a great teammate. He wasn't the best Laker. He wasn't the best Center. He wasn't anything but a dominant force. Good for him.
> 
> 
> *
> Sort of like a prime Penny?* Come on man. Shaq was a joke of a teammate, even when the Lakers did win championships. It was just masked by the fact that they were winning.


I'm not a fan of the "prime Penny" argument... Penny wasn't really in his prime... he was 23 and in his 2nd full NBA season when the Magic went to the finals. Penny didn't get to have a prime, injuries took that away.


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



> He would have played 2nd fiddle to Shaquille, according to Phil.


Lol has anyone asked Jordan what he thinks about that?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

And I don't want to get on the wrong side of this argument, because I don't even believe Kobe is as good as Jordan. I just hate how people downplay the first half of his career simply because he played with the greatest peak player of all-time (Shaquille).


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Dornado said:


> I'm not a fan of the "prime Penny" argument... Penny wasn't really in his prime... he was 23 and in his 2nd full NBA season when the Magic went to the finals. Penny didn't get to have a prime, injuries took that away.


Touche'

But for what we know his career to be, and how it turned out, I think it's fair to at least grant that his best years ended up being his early Magic days.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> Lol has anyone asked Jordan what he thinks about that?


Who cares what he thinks? It's the truth.


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Who cares what he thinks? It's the truth.


According to someone else' opinion, but of course Phil's word is gospel. Even Kobe had issues playing second fiddle to Shaq, but MJ's supposed to be all fine and dandy with it. Weird how when you want to twist the argument to support Kobe, you most likely bring up MJ's huge ego shouldn't you use that right now?

Remember this though, the man's called the greatest player of all time for a reason...I am not sure playing second fiddle is in his nature.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> You know you can rewrite history if you like...you can call Shaq a douche, an *******, a lazy bum and all that good stuff, but you cannot, I repeat cannot deny the fact that the guy was the one that presented teams with headaches. He was the one that teams set out to stop, kind of how teams are trying to game plan for Kobe now. Lol at folks like Pay Ton tossing out 'dominance' like some label. This guy was destroying front courts. No easy task.


No one denies Shaq's importance during the three peat run. It bugs me because Kobe doesn't get credit for closing out important games (Gm 4 NBA Finals 2000, 2001 series against Spurs). While Shaq was unstoppable during 2001 run, Kobe became more offensively involved, raised his level of play.

It's lovely seeing critics/haters eating crows. Lovely!


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> According to someone else' opinion, but of course Phil's word is gospel. Even Kobe had issues playing second fiddle to Shaq, but MJ's supposed to be all fine and dandy with it. Weird how when you want to twist the argument to support Kobe, you most likely bring up MJ's huge ego shouldn't you use that right now?
> 
> Remember this though, the man's called the greatest player of all time for a reason...I am not sure playing second fiddle is in his nature.


Considering the Phil and the triangle helped Jordan win 6 titles, don't you think his opinion would count? Especially considering he coached all three players. Jordan refusing to play 2nd fiddle would just mean he would have to go through a Phil and a prime Shaquille team in order to win titles. As you say, Shaquille was destroying front courts and in his prime, for a couple of years, he was more dominant than Jordan ever was. Jordan's title count would be less if he had to play the 2001 Lakers (Phil+Shaquille+any solid 2 guard as you put it). So Jordan is such a winner that he would sacrafice less titles to be the main man? People call Kobe selfish...


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> You know you can rewrite history if you like...you can call Shaq a douche, an *******, a lazy bum and all that good stuff, but you cannot, I repeat cannot deny the fact that the guy was the one that presented teams with headaches.


Not denying that. I agree with that. He was a headache for teams. But he wasn't a particularly great teammate. He wasn't much of a hard worker. He was lazy. He didn't particularly care about team play. He cared about winning, on his terms, if he was the main guy. He is the most selfish great player to ever play basketball. In any other skill set or body set (i.e. Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Hakeem even) he would have never won a championship because even though he was gifted, he had the least amount of drive and work ethic than any great center has ever had. His overall attitude was piss poor. He had the worst attitude for a superstar ever. He was a piece of ****, frankly put.



HB said:


> He was the one that teams set out to stop, kind of how teams are trying to game plan for Kobe now. Lol at folks like Pay Ton tossing out 'dominance' like some label. This guy was destroying front courts. No easy task.


I didn't toss out dominance. The media did. Plus Laker fans were drooling over the label, because they knew they couldn't call him the greatest ever, so they decided to adopt "the most dominant ever" as some sort of award. 

That's it. Most dominant. It was the best Shaq could ever achieve because of his overall attitude and lack of focus, drive, or teamwork. If he worked half as hard as some other centers who never even won a title, he could have been one of the greatest players of all time. But since he was a physically gifted piece of poo, he settled for most dominant ever. 

Shaq was unstoppable, but he was a joke in almost every other criteria that you rate the all time greats in. He is an exception to the rule that a superstar (superstar, mind you, not All-Star) needs to have great work ethic, drive, passion, and willingness to help his team.


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Last two posts are really weird and I am not sure it helps the whole Kobe-MJ comparison thing. One guy says MJ would have to play the role Kobe played on those Shaq teams because Shaq was too dominant, the other guy calls him a bad teammate...and I am sitting here wondering why MJ would put up with Shaq's 'laziness/attitude' problems


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> Last two posts are really weird and I am not sure it helps the whole Kobe-MJ comparison thing. One guy says MJ would have to play the role Kobe played on those Shaq teams because Shaq was too dominant, the other guy calls him a bad teammate...and I am sitting here wondering why MJ would put up with Shaq's 'laziness/attitude' problems


Me and Sir Patchwork are arguing two different things that have nothing to do with each other.

I was arguing with you because I wanted to clarify that I agree that he was unstoppable. But that's all he was. Granted, it was all he needed to be to win championships. But it's still all he was.

He was, by far, the worst teammate to ever be so great of a player.


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Its a a joke to compare Kobe, the player and talent, to MJ especially after the game last night. Absolute joke. 

However Kobe will be able to break some of MJ's records since he'll likely have a much longer NBA career, mostly due to being incredibly fortunate since he's been on the team with the most dominant frontcourts whether its Bynum/Gasol/Odom or Shaq. 

It'll be interesting to see how Kobe fairs in the upcoming seasons since age has already been catching up with him and he's going through knee surgery before the new season.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*



Spaceman Spiff said:


> At the very least Kobe would be in the convo of top 10 all time


He's already pretty clearly cemented there. At this point it's wheather he can move up a few spots or not.


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Pay Ton said:


> He was, by far, the worst teammate to ever be so great of a player.


Both Kobe and Shaq can appear to be primadonnas and both had/have huge maturity issues. However in Phil's book after the LA 3-peat he laid it out as much however he called Shaq being a guy thats ultimately a team player whereas he described Kobe as a guy thats selfish. Phil's also called Kobe "uncoachable" and has had to deal with his stat padding ways even in 2010 when the team had to called a meeting about it. Then you've got the game last night where Kobe was forcing the issue.


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

As a player I wouldn't want Kobe over Bird, MJ, or Johnson since the latter seem like better team players. However Kobe can very well have a more decorated career.



VanillaPrice said:


> Kobe's the third best perimeter player of all time behind Magic and Jordan. There's no disputing that at this point.


How about Bird?


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Jakain said:


> Both Kobe and Shaq can appear to be primadonnas and both had/have huge maturity issues. However in Phil's book after the LA 3-peat he laid it out as much however he called Shaq being a guy thats ultimately a team player whereas he described Kobe as a guy thats selfish. Phil's also called Kobe "uncoachable" and has had to deal with his stat padding ways even in 2010 when the team had to called a meeting about it. Then you've got the game last night where Kobe was forcing the issue.


Kobe may have, at one point, been a pretty selfish player. But I always thought Kobe's faults as a teammate weren't that he was a "me, me, me" kind of guy, but rather somebody who is sometimes overly hard on his teammates when they don't perform well. He just strikes me as somebody who's not very kind when you aren't playing well, but that's about it.

Shaq, on the other hand, is a selfish as they get and always has been. Phil's comments hold no credence to me because I always thought that Phil liked Shaq, as a person (don't ask me why) way more than he does Kobe. Even today, after they got into their little war of words recently, I still think Phil got along better with Shaq than any other player not named Michael.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Jakain said:


> Its a a joke to compare Kobe, the player and talent, to MJ especially after the game last night. Absolute joke.
> 
> However Kobe will be able to break some of MJ's records since he'll likely have a much longer NBA career, mostly due to being incredibly fortunate since he's been on the team with the most dominant frontcourts whether its Bynum/Gasol/Odom or Shaq.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see how Kobe fairs in the upcoming seasons since age has already been catching up with him and he's going through knee surgery before the new season.


and jordan's team won 55 games without him, and went 7 games against the team that went 7 in the finals. they were a pretty good supporting cast that got better after the '95 season.

jordan shot 5-19 in game 6 against the sonics. 5 turnovers. point? one game is not much of a reason for anything. particularly a game where you end up with 23 and 15 and your team wins. 

jordan was better. but to say it's a joke to compare and point to yesterday's game as the ultimate evidence is silly. kobe's one of the best to ever play. it's really not a joke to compare him to anyone. even if he falls short.


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Pay Ton said:


> Kobe may have, at one point, been a pretty selfish player. But I always thought Kobe's faults as a teammate weren't that he was a "me, me, me" kind of guy, but rather somebody who is sometimes overly hard on his teammates when they don't perform well. He just strikes me as somebody who's not very kind when you aren't playing well, but that's about it.


Then you should check out Phil Jackson's "The Last Season: A Team in Search of Its Soul" since Jackson talks about the personality differences and how that team melted down and paints the complex picture that was Kobe and Phil's relationship. Jackson called Shaq a guy thats ultimately a team player and Jackson laments that the NBA was losing the team aspect of the game in lieu of individual talent. 

If I recall correctly, Phil even wanted to trade Kobe back in the early 2000's and that locker-room in general was filled with petty egocentricsm. 



> Shaq, on the other hand, is a selfish as they get and always has been. Phil's comments hold no credence to me because I always thought that Phil liked Shaq, as a person (don't ask me why) way more than he does Kobe. Even today, after they got into their little war of words recently, I still think Phil got along better with Shaq than any other player not named Michael.


Its hard to like someone that gets involved with rape and has a bunch of petty and egocentric personality issues as well I suppose. Still I wouldn't dismiss Phil Jacksons' comments or books on the matter since you're not going to find a better source especially when comparing Kobe to GOATs like Shaq and MJ.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

you don't get "involved" with rape. you either raped someone, or you didn't.

jackson's book reveals as much about himself as it does kobe and shaq, honestly. he picked sides early, and did not manage the situation very well. and ultimately he hitched his wagon back to kobe.


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



kflo said:


> and jordan's team won 55 games without him, and went 7 games against the team that went 7 in the finals. they were a pretty good supporting cast that got better after the '95 season.
> 
> jordan shot 5-19 in game 6 against the sonics. 5 turnovers. point? one game is not much of a reason for anything. particularly a game where you end up with 23 and 15 and your team wins.
> 
> jordan was better. but to say it's a joke to compare and point to yesterday's game as the ultimate evidence is silly. kobe's one of the best to ever play. it's really not a joke to compare him to anyone. even if he falls short.


As a talent and player, it is a joke comparison. Career-wise, Kobe will be able to close in and exceed in some statistical areas but will fall short when it comes to winning as a dominant no.1 option and their overall legacy and impact on the NBA.

MJ won more as a no. 1 option, was a far superior talent, stronger mentality, and had highs Kobe never experienced in the postseason while never really touching Kobe's lows. 

Its a pretty easy case at this point when it comes to Kobe and MJ but Kobe still has time I suppose.


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



kflo said:


> you don't get "involved" with rape. you either raped someone, or you didn't.
> 
> jackson's book reveals as much about himself as it does kobe and shaq, honestly. he picked sides early, and did not manage the situation very well. and ultimately he hitched his wagon back to kobe.


Semantics, schematics. "Rape allegations" then. He did eventually return to LA and it was interesting to see Kobe claim that he was going to leave LA before they grabbed Gasol as well.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Jakain said:


> Its hard to like someone that gets involved with rape and has a bunch of petty and egocentric personality issues as well I suppose. Still I wouldn't dismiss Phil Jacksons' comments or books on the matter since you're not going to find a better source especially when comparing Kobe to GOATs like Shaq and MJ.


Shaq is a GOAT? What exactly is he the greatest of? Centers? Lakers? What? Certainly not player.

Shaq is not a GOAT in anything.


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Was wondering when kflo would show up

As for Shaq, you could argue he is in the conversation for Greatest center of all time.


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Pay Ton said:


> Shaq is a GOAT? What exactly is he the greatest of? Centers? Lakers? What? Certainly not player.
> 
> Shaq is not a GOAT in anything.


He's the most dominant center the modern NBA has ever seen and consistently ranks in the top 10 or 15 GOAT lists.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

But..

PJ came back to coach Kobe. He finally saw the light at the end of tunnel. He knew with Kobe, he will have a chance to win his 10th ring, 11th ring and more so if he wants it.

Btw, Tex Winter calls out Shaq out every time in the practice. I'll take Master Yoda's word over Phil's.


----------



## TheDarkPrince

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Kenneth said:


> Jordan fanboys are going to start slitting their own throats if Kobe ends up with 7 rings.


Why? Doesn't Robert Horry have 7 rings? Kobe could win 8-9 titles and imo he would still be behind Jordan. His career numbers need to get better, which at his age most players start to decline each year.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> Was wondering when kflo would show up
> 
> As for Shaq, you could argue he is in the conversation for Greatest center of all time.


"In the conversation" as in "dismissed quite early in the discussion".


----------



## kflo

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Jakain said:


> As a talent and player, it is a joke comparison. Career-wise, Kobe will be able to close in and exceed in several statistical areas but will fall short when it comes to winning as a dominant no.1 option and their overall legacy and impact on the NBA.
> 
> MJ won more as a no. 1 option, was a far superior talent, stronger mentality, and had highs Kobe never experienced in the postseason while never really touching Kobe's lows.
> 
> Its a pretty easy shut and close case at this point when it comes to Kobe and MJ but Kobe still has time I suppose.


of course he'll fall short when it comes to winning as a dominant #1 option. he spent the beginning of his prime with shaq. it's a silly standard. kobe falls short of jordan because jordan was a little better an overall player. he's not a far superior talent - seriously, people want to put jordan on a pedestal for everything - talent, iq, mentality, etc. they're both incredible talents. jordan had a little more athleticism and overall quickness. 

they have almost no career overlap. they had different peers, different circumstances, and both had tremendous success. 

i have no problem with saying jordan was better. it's when people try and paint this great divide that i think things go overboard.


----------



## TheDarkPrince

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Considering the Phil and the triangle helped Jordan win 6 titles, don't you think his opinion would count? Especially considering he coached all three players. Jordan refusing to play 2nd fiddle would just mean he would have to go through a Phil and a prime Shaquille team in order to win titles. As you say, Shaquille was destroying front courts and in his prime, for a couple of years, he was more dominant than Jordan ever was. Jordan's title count would be less if he had to play the 2001 Lakers (Phil+Shaquille+any solid 2 guard as you put it). So Jordan is such a winner that he would sacrafice less titles to be the main man? People call Kobe selfish...


Shaq more dominant then Jordan ever was? Stopped reading right there. I bet even Shaq would tell you that you're insane with that comment.


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



> "In the conversation" as in "dismissed quite early in the discussion".


Someone's clearly got a bone to pick with Shaq, and it shows in your posts trying to portray Shaq has some terrible teammate meanwhile treating Kobe's actions lightly...hullo, this is the same guy that wouldn't shoot in an important playoff game because he wanted to send a message. Oh and of course Kobe doesn't have trust issues, he just choses to alienate folks and freeze out teammates occasionally. Yup such a passionate basketball driven individual. Puhhleaasseeee...I do think Kobe has matured as a ball player, but trying to make it sound like he's some ideal teammate is crazy.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Jakain said:


> He's the most dominant center the modern NBA has ever seen


Whoppity doo.



Jakain said:


> and consistently ranks in the top 10 or 15 GOAT lists.


But he's not a GOAT. The thing is, when does a GOAT list stop becoming the Greatest of All Time list and start becoming "just" great players? How far down the list do you go before it stops becoming GOAT and starts becoming great NBA players?

The GOAT, to me, is far more exclusive than top fifteen.


----------



## carrrnuttt

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Jordan has never given up on a Game 7 in the playoffs.


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

What Centers would you put above Shaq Pay Ton? You realize if you were starting a GOAT squad, Shaq is most likely the guy most people pick at C position.


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



kflo said:


> of course he'll fall short when it comes to winning as a dominant #1 option. he spent the beginning of his prime with shaq. it's a silly standard. kobe falls short of jordan because jordan was a little better an overall player. he's not a far superior talent - seriously, people want to put jordan on a pedestal for everything - talent, iq, mentality, etc. they're both incredible talents. jordan had a little more athleticism and overall quickness.
> 
> they have almost no career overlap. they had different peers, different circumstances, and both had tremendous success.
> 
> i have no problem with saying jordan was better. it's when people try and paint this great divide that i think things go overboard.


Jordan wasn't just a "little better". Kobe never posted the efficient numbers or the intangibles that Jordan did. And simply never won as much as a no. 1 option nor did he revolutionize the NBA.

In just about every aspect except a few statistical ones like having more Finals appearances does MJ beat Kobe. No real contest. 

That doesn't mean Kobe isn't an incredible talent, just falls pretty short of the GOAT.


----------



## TheDarkPrince

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

As for Shaq being the best Center ever, have people already forgotten Hakeem Olajuwon?


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



TheDarkPrince said:


> As for Shaq being the best Center ever, have people already forgotten Hakeem Olajuwon?


No and neither have we forgotten about Russell, Abdul Jabbbar and Chamberlain.


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Pay Ton said:


> Whoppity doo.
> 
> 
> But he's not a GOAT. The thing is, when does a GOAT list stop becoming the Greatest of All Time list and start becoming "just" great players? How far down the list do you go before it stops becoming GOAT and starts becoming great NBA players?
> 
> The GOAT, to me, is far more exclusive than top fifteen.


*Far* more exclusive than top fifteen? How about top ten? 5? 1? Whats your standards here?

Shaq > Kobe on their championship runs and its not really debatable. Not really debatable that Shaq isn't one of the NBA's greatest centers and players of all time either.


----------



## Cap

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



carrrnuttt said:


> Jordan has never given up on a Game 7 in the playoffs.


What a coincidence, neither has Kobe Bryant.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> Someone's clearly got a bone to pick with Shaq, and it shows in your posts trying to portray Shaq has some terrible teammate meanwhile treating Kobe's actions lightly...hullo, this is the same guy that wouldn't shoot in an important playoff game because he wanted to send a message. Oh and of course Kobe doesn't have trust issues, he just choses to alienate folks and freeze out teammates occasionally. Yup such a passionate basketball driven individual. Puhhleaasseeee...I do think Kobe has matured as a ball player, but trying to make it sound like he's some ideal teammate is crazy.


I've never hidden the fact that I hate Shaq and think he's a prick. I've always been pretty vocal about it. 

But I do think my hate comes from a justified place. I didn't just hate him overnight. I saw his actions. I saw the way he was. Him being the way he is, is what got me to dislike him.

And I've also conceded some of Kobe's flaws as a teammate. I've never lied about those. I think Game 7 against the Suns is one of Kobe's lowest moments of his career, and it was an extremely selfish performance. 

I've said the same thing about how Kobe dealt with the offseason a couple of years ago when he was caught on tape criticizing Bynum to some fans. I thought that was handled pretty badly too. Kobe is far from perfect.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> What Centers would you put above Shaq Pay Ton? You realize if you were starting a GOAT squad, Shaq is most likely the guy most people pick at C position.


The four have already been listed, but...

Hakeem
Kareem
Wilt
Russell

I would pick all four of those over Shaq.

Not to mention that if you paired them with a similarly great player like Kobe, I think, because of their unselfishness and work ethic and passion, they win more than three rings together.

Hell, Kobe has already won two with Gasol.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

For people trying to use Kobe's game last night as a reason he can't reach Jordan's level, look at Jordan's final 3 clinching games in the Finals shooting wise: 5-19, 15-35, 15-35.

Let's not pretend that he was perfect.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

Kobe's surpassed Magic as the best Laker, in my opinion.


----------



## Futurama_Fanatic

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

oh god. the off season has been only one day and we are already having Kobe/MJ arguments


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Kobe basically is what Kobe is going to be remembered as at this point. An absolute lock for top ten all time with a *slight* chance of creeping up on the top five. That's it. He is the third best perimeter player of all time behind Jordan and Magic and that isn't going to change, period.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*



Jakain said:


> As a player I wouldn't want Kobe over Bird, MJ, or Johnson since the latter seem like better team players. However Kobe can very well have a more decorated career.
> 
> 
> 
> How about Bird?


I guess from "perimeter players" I was talking about strictly shooting guards and point guards, and small forwards kind of slipped my mind. But honestly, it's really not that huge of a gap between Kobe and Bird. Kobe was the better scorer and defender, Bird was the better passer and rebounder. Both were incredible in the clutch (edge to Bird though) but Kobe won more. If Kobe can sustain this level of play for three more years then he will beat out Bird on longevity alone in my opinion.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*



Basel said:


> Kobe's surpassed Magic as the best Laker, in my opinion.


I wouldn't go that far quite yet. Quick question, I rarely see you rate anyone over Kobe, so where do you have him in your all time list?


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*



VanillaPrice said:


> I wouldn't go that far quite yet. Quick question, I rarely see you rate anyone over Kobe, so where do you have him in your all time list?


I really don't know, actually. I've never thought about an all time list. I just know I have Jordan #1.


----------



## RSP83

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Kobe is no Jordan. But let's not take anything away from Kobe. Kobe is a winner. There are lots of talented NBA stars today who probably play better than Kobe. But, Kobe is the only one I feel comfortable of calling a winner. It's amazing really to see the development of his career: Prep-to-pros, Shaq's side kick, young champion, troubled star, selfish scorer, reinvent self to become a leader of a back-to-back championship team. I mean just look back at where he's been throughout his career with all the highs and lows and look at where he is now. You don't see that kind of evolution/transformation happen very often to a player. Not even MJ. That makes Kobe a truly unique talent. Definitely a great player. He and MJ are probably the greatest player that I have ever witnessed in my lifetime so far.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Oh, and I was thinking about this last night - 

Kobe has completely redeemed himself on pretty much all accounts over the last few years. His biggest critizisms were - 

1.) Only looked dominant because he was next to Shaq, other perimeter players (T-Mac, VC, ect.) were on the same level.

He had a rough first year without Shaq but then he was the best player in the league for three or four seasons and won the MVP (should have been two or three but I digress) and clearly cemented his status as a full tier or two above any other perimeter player in the era.

2.) Couldn't win without Shaq.

He's already got two championships with two finals MVPs and counting.

3.) The 2004 Pistons squad.

While he never got another crack at them, he did redeem himself by taking out the two best players on that Pistons team (Kobe dominating Denver/Billups in '09.) and (Kobe winning finals MVP over Celtics/'Sheed)

4.) The Celtics.

Check ESPN right now =)

Really I can't think of anything else that he feels he has to do before he retires, except the whole stuff his fingers with rings thing.


----------



## LA68

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Kenneth said:


> Jordan fanboys are going to start slitting their own throats if Kobe ends up with 7 rings.


One minute Kobe is a hot dog, the next he didn't shoot enough to lead the league. This is a team game. Team championships are all that matter. 

Oh, and if the Bulls had the first pick in 1992 and picked Shaq, do you think Jordan would have complained ?? Heck no !

Winning is winning, pure and simple. Kobe was a major player on the first three and the main player on these two. 

And if he wins next year, he will have more appearances and just as many rings. 

And threads like this will have 100 pages !


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Sir Patchwork said:


> He was the 2nd best player. Who cares? It's actually impressive that he has 3 titles as a 2nd option and 2 titles as a 1st option, in two different roles. He was Scottie Pippen for 3 titles and Michael Jordan for 2 titles (so far). In both situations he was a top 5 player despite having a different set of responsibilities.


Whereas Jordan was Jordan for six titles. Or He was Shaq 6 times, or Kobe now 6 times. 

You just proved our point.



Sir Patchwork said:


> He would have played 2nd fiddle to Shaquille, according to Phil.


But he didn't.



Sir Patchwork said:


> And I don't want to get on the wrong side of this argument, because I don't even believe Kobe is as good as Jordan. I just hate how people downplay the first half of his career simply because he played with the greatest peak player of all-time (Shaquille).


When you look at these statements people are making as to why Kobe is/will be better than Jordan, you kind of have to because no matter how people spin it, you have to bring it up.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Spaceman Spiff said:


> Sorry to say, but a guy like T-Mac, Pierce, and Vince would have gotten 3 rings alongside Shaq also. Pierce and T-Mac moreso because of their unselfishness and willingness to defer to teammates, they might have won that 4th. Not to say Kobe isn't a great player. He has both team and individual accomplishments, but he's not reaching Jordan.
> 
> Robert "I'm 7 for 7 in the Finals" Horry is not impressed


Good lord. T-mac and Vince have yet to sniff a championship playing with Yao and Dwight. I'm ashamed to even be responding to this post.


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Dwight's no Shaq and Yao...well Yao's never been healthy.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

Kobe will retire the most accomplished Laker of all time, holding more records than any other player who donned a Lakers jersey. Whether that puts him ahead of Magic Johnson is purely subjective, the pendulum can swing either way and as I see it right now they're on the same tier.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> Dwight's no Shaq and Yao...well Yao's never been healthy.


So you agree with him that T-Mac, Wince and Pierce are just as good as Kobe. 

Let's throw some other names- Finley could of won 3 rings with Shaq.

What about Ray Allen?

Latrell Sprewell?

You sir have credibility issues.


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Man lol this is getting into dicey territory. I dont think they had to be as good as Kobe to have won titles, but all those guys had similar skill sets. Playing with Shaq would have benefited Tmac, PP and Vince. I think you could add Ray Ray to that list. Everyone else you mentioned is a joke.

Dont know about the whole 3 titles thing, but Shaq could have won at least two titles with any of those guys.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> Man lol this is getting into dicey territory. I dont think they had to be as good as Kobe to have won titles, but all those guys had similar skill sets. Playing with Shaq would have benefited Tmac, PP and Vince. I think you could add Ray Ray to that list. Everyone else you mentioned is a joke.
> 
> Dont know about the whole 3 titles thing, but Shaq could have won at least two titles with any of those guys.


Why? I thought Iverson was the third best SG in 2000, Kobe second, Finley first.


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Didnt see Iverson on your list, but yeah you could add him to list of guys who coulda won at least one chip with Shaq.

Dude you realize a while back when they asked Shaq which one guy would he like to play with, he mentioned Vince. 

As for Finley, the joke was over about two posts ago. No need to bring him up anymore.


----------



## VeN

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Pay Ton said:


> Kobe has won two championships as the main man, but none of the five would have been possible without him.
> 
> Let's not forget Shaq had already made the Finals once before with a prime Penny Hardaway.
> 
> Let's not start overrating Shaq here. Kobe has cemented that he is going down as a greater player than Shaq.


sweet jesus lord in heaven.... it... has... begun..

could anyone possibly post a more idiotic jock riding post? 

1) kobe has absolutely sucked in the last 2 finals appearances (last night he was terrible for over half the game).
2) kobe is arguably the reason why the lakers dont have more titles. ball hogging when shaq shouldve been handling the ball. 
3) really? better than shaq? LOL put kobe on the heat or magic and see if they make the finals. kobe couldnt even get outta the first round a few years ago (funny how you kobe bandwagoners forget that little fact). kobe has cemented the fact that great players dont win titles without being surrounded by a great cast.... thats about it. 

im not going to change anyones mind, believe whatever you want, no matter how rediculous it is. 


" but none of the five would have been possible without him"

just... wow...


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



OneBadLT123 said:


> Whereas Jordan was Jordan for six titles. Or He was Shaq 6 times, or Kobe now 6 times.
> 
> You just proved our point.


You're actually missing the point. My point is that if Jordan was handed the same circumstances as Kobe, he would have been winning titles as a 2nd option too, because Phil would have had him playing off of Shaquille. If Jordan threw a fit and didn't like it, like you guys claim, he would have sacraficed titles in the process because he sure as hell wasn't going to get through Phil and a prime Shaquille. 

Kobe handled the cards he was dealt. He wasn't handed his Pippen until 10 years into his career, and he has two titles already to show for it. 

Personally, I don't care about titles. Jordan being better than Kobe has *nothing* to do with titles. It has to do with Jordan being more explosive and athletic, and using that advantage to create space for himself more efficiently, therefore creating higher percentage shots. 

I just hate when people use titles to judge players to begin with, and I especially hate when they try to differentiate roles to grade those titles. A title is a title. If you're going to use them, use them. If not, then don't. Don't pick and choose which ones are okay to count.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Jamel Irief said:


> *So you agree with him that T-Mac, Wince and Pierce are just as good as Kobe.
> *


Back in 2000-02, yes.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

surpassed what? Kobe has only 3 rings (2+1). Shaq was the man at that time.

Accomplishment did not lie.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



VeN said:


> sweet jesus lord in heaven.... it... has... begun..
> 
> could anyone possibly post a more idiotic jock riding post?
> 
> 1) kobe has absolutely sucked in the last 2 finals appearances (last night he was terrible for over half the game).
> 2) kobe is arguably the reason why the lakers dont have more titles. ball hogging when shaq shouldve been handling the ball.
> 3) really? better than shaq? LOL put kobe on the heat or magic and see if they make the finals. kobe couldnt even get outta the first round a few years ago (funny how you kobe bandwagoners forget that little fact). kobe has cemented the fact that great players dont win titles without being surrounded by a great cast.... thats about it.
> 
> im not going to change anyones mind, believe whatever you want, no matter how rediculous it is.
> 
> 
> " but none of the five would have been possible without him"
> 
> just... wow...


Alright, even though I consider myself a Kobe fan, I'm far from a Kobe homer. I was cheering against his team throughout the Finals. More often than not (a small period after they traded Shaq), I have cheered against Kobe's team for his whole career. So I hardly consider myslef a "jock rider". I like to see him do good individually, but I'm far from a Kobe die-hard.

That being said, yes, Kobe is absolutely better than Shaq.

Shaq should have been handling the ball? Handling the ball? Shaq? O'Neal? Do you know anything about basketball?

Kobe has sucked in his last two Final appearances? I agree to some extent. He wasn't good for Kobe's standards. If next year Brandon Roy goes to the Finals and puts up the same box score numbers as Kobe, with the same bad shooting nights, does he not win Finals MVP and have everybody going gaga? 

Kobe is held to higher standards than most stars, which he should be. He wasn't stellar for Kobe's standards. But he was still the best player on the floor.

Kobe has nothing to prove at this point, he has ****ted on Shaq's legacy by cementing his own. 

I'm not happy for the Lakers, but I love that Shaq has to sit at home and watch Kobe pile up the rings. 

If he had a fraction of the focus and dedication than the Tim Duncan's of the league, he would have probably won two more titles with Kobe. But he doesn't. He's a lazy, arrogant piece of ****. And so his championship days are over. Most dominant ever. ****ing horray. Kobe and Jordan are not impressed.


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Cap said:


> What a coincidence, neither has Kobe Bryant.


Are you choosing to forget when he only scored 1 point on 3 shots in the second half against the Phoenix Suns in game 7 after being up 3-1?


----------



## mysterio

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

1. MJ, 2. Wilt, 3. Kareem, 4. Magic/Bird/Russell 7. Hakeem/Shaq/Duncan. 10. Kobe/Oscar (finally surpassed Karl and Moses Malone/West).

Kobe will remain stuck at 10, no matter how many championships he wins UNLESS he gives a very dominant Finals performance. Kobe's Finals MVP was gained by default, 6/24 shooting and 0/6 3pt, and the fact that Pau's production and importance in these Finals pretty much matches Kobe's says a lot about where he deserves to be ranked. Right now, nobody honest with themselves would rank Kobe any better than #10 all-time.


----------



## Cap

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Hibachi! said:


> Are you choosing to forget when he only scored 1 point on 3 shots in the second half against the Phoenix Suns in game 7 after being up 3-1?


No, I remember that, I just don't know what it has to do with quitting.


----------



## carrrnuttt

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Cap said:


> What a coincidence, neither has Kobe Bryant.




http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260506021



> Bryant scored only one point and took just three shots in the second half.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

I think overall historically Magic will be regarded as the better laker. Not only what he did on the court but for what he did for the sport. Plus if you factor in his career being cut short easily by 5-7 years there are a lot more "what ifs and could haves"

Remember, this is the same Magic who didn't play NBA level ball for 4-5 years and then his first season back (in Jan 1996 I think) he posted a nearly 8 triple doubles and played like he never left the game.


----------



## HB

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

In his last Game 7 he was also like what 5 of 20, yeah very Jordan-esque...oh wait...


----------



## Theonee

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



> That’s not a knock on Bryant. That’s just how it’s usually been done … far more frequently than most people care to remember. Take Jordan, for instance. He clinched his first title as a mostly-bystander watching a monstrous fourth quarter from John Paxson … and the second with five reserves leading a 16-point comeback against Portland in Game 6 ... and the third watching Paxson nail the game-winner in Phoenix.


http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/16825/rebounds-not-legacies-the-story-for-lakers


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

It's pretty sad to see the same ol' arguments been thrown to try and diminish Kobe Bryant's achievments.

This is the same kind of people that will forever talk about the "flu" game Michael Jordan had and completely disregard that Kobe played a season with a broken finger in his shooting hand and STILL carried his team to the championship!
Anf tslk endlessly about a dreadfull shooting night in game 7 of the Finals and disregard his 28.6/8/3.9/2.14 averages in those same Finals. All the while being double-teamed and, in some games, being the lone Laker to show up.

Let's get the fact straight, for all the youngins out there:

1- Kobe Bryant has just played his 7th NBA Finals. How many players have done that?
And how many players have done that WHILE being the first or second best player on the team?

2- Kobe was the second best player on Shaq's threepeat Lakers. Sure. But he was no freaking Scottie Pippen. Kobe had to dominate some series for the Lakers to advance (namely some historic LA/SA battles). 

3- No permiter player in the history of the game would be the alpha dog on a team with Shaquille O'Neal. No one. Not Jordan. Not Magic. Not Oscar, West, Whomever. 
To say otherwise would be not understanding the game of basketball what-so-ever.

4- Nhe rule is STILL "no championship team is a one-man show". Pau Gasol is a great player, and without him the Lakers would probably come short. But the same can be said about almost all other championship teams. Magic. Pippen. McHale. Kobe. Worthy. Etc., etc.
There are few exceptions to this rule.

5- It would be foolish not to aknowledge that for every championship won Kobe comes closer to Jordan's status. 
I'm not saying that Kobe would be considered on par with Jordan as individual basketball players, habilities considered, but as having great careers, Kobe's coming nearer.
(to clarify: eventhough i rank Tim Duncan ahead on my all-time list, i will never concede he was a better basketball player than, say, Jerry West).

6- It's also foolish to bring into comparison such things as "he revolutionized (sp?) the game", or "he made the NBA global", or stuff like that regarding Michael Jordan. That has nothing to do with players actual production and impact on the court. 
It would be the same to say Magic and Bird should be co-GOAT because they "saved the game in the early 80's".
And it would be the same to say Iverson's status should be much higher because he brought "urban culture into the game".
**** like that doesn't matter.

7- I was never a big fan of Kobe Bryant the person. Yes, he is a moody, stubborn, selfish, introspective guy. He is no Magic Johnson. And i hated when those personal traits (sp?) would reflect negatively on his production (in fact, i was cursing him out loud on game 7 whe he was insisting in playing 1-on-3 on offense).
But lokking back on his career with non-biased (either way) eyes, one cannot butmarvel at his career.
Yes, he is an all-time Top-12 (at least) player. 
And he is climbing up the charts.

8- Kobe isn't near to Jordan's status right now. But IF he wins a couple more championships as the team's franchise player, he damned well will be.
Jordan's isn't so high that Kobe can't get there.
Only Wilt Chamberlain is untouchable in that aspect.


----------



## Cap

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



carrrnuttt said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260506021


Yes, thank you for linking the game recap, though I'm not sure what that had to do with your OP. :horsepoop:


----------



## Cap

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

^ No, he definitely wasn't the same player when he came back in 96. If he was they actually would have gone somewhere in the playoffs. 

Magic is still *probably* the better player because he was so much smarter than Kobe, but Kobe was also significantly better defensively and as a scorer in his prime. Whether Kobe had won this year or not, he still would have been about as good as Magic was, but in terms of accolades and performing in the postseason there isn't anything Magic did that Bryant hasn't done at this point. He'll only cement that from this point on, health willing.


----------



## Ron

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



BG7 said:


> Kobe is just too far behind Jordan in individual accomplishment to surpass Jordan. It's like Bill Russell kind of. The guy wasn't all that great of a player, and it's ridiculous that he is put so high on all time greats list just for winning championships as a testament of being on great teams. Although Kobe is a lot better individual player than Russell.


Did you see Russell play? I doubt it. Unless you are reincarnated or something.

I saw him play and he was dominating. You have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## Ron

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



HB said:


> In his last Game 7 he was also like what 5 of 20, yeah very Jordan-esque...oh wait...


I just love revisionist history.

Check out some of Jordan's final game performances. He was atrocious as well.

Everyone is human sometimes.


----------



## VeN

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Pay Ton said:


> That being said, yes, Kobe is absolutely better than Shaq.


Opinion, moving on.


> Shaq should have been handling the ball? Handling the ball? Shaq? O'Neal? Do you know anything about basketball?


Do you?
Dominant big man > dominant wing player

all. day. 

I could list examples all day, but the Lakers werent winning many titles after Shaq left right? 



> Kobe has sucked in his last two Final appearances? I agree to some extent. He wasn't good for Kobe's standards. If next year Brandon Roy goes to the Finals and puts up the same box score numbers as Kobe, with the same bad shooting nights, does he not win Finals MVP and have everybody going gaga?


Prolly but imo its like league mvp, no matter how kobe played he wouldve gotten it. In all honesty you can argue that artest deserved it, or really gasol. 



> Kobe is held to higher standards than most stars, which he should be. He wasn't stellar for Kobe's standards. But he was still the best player on the floor.


talent wise yes he was the best on the floor, but he certainly wasnt leading the lakers to victory.that was artest. 



> Kobe has nothing to prove at this point, he has ****ted on Shaq's legacy by cementing his own.


not really. shaq has plenty of rings, i doubt he has an delusions of his role these days, he knows hes a role player in cleveland. their legacies stand on their own merit. they are both all time greats, arguably 1-8 all time greats, but thats just opinion and ill leave that for someone else to argue about lol. 




> If he had a fraction of the focus and dedication than the Tim Duncan's of the league, he would have probably won two more titles with Kobe. But he doesn't. He's a lazy, arrogant piece of ****. And so his championship days are over. Most dominant ever. ****ing horray. Kobe and Jordan are not impressed.


opinion, but im betting it was more kobe's ego didnt like playing sidekick to shaq. shaq changed the game. his championship days are over because hes almost 39.. not because hes "arrogant". maybe if kobe were more humble hed have more rings. but kobe has to be "the man". and the price of that was first round exits and trade talks.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



VeN said:


> opinion, but im betting it was more kobe's ego didnt like playing sidekick to shaq.


Why should he? 



> shaq changed the game. his championship days are over because hes almost 39.. not because hes "arrogant". maybe if kobe were more humble hed have more rings. *but kobe has to be "the man". and the price of that was first round exits and trade talks*.


Well, look at him now as "the man": back-to-back world champion.

It would appear it was worthy, Kobe-wise, no?


----------



## Theonee

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

For people who keeps on pointing at why Kobe's 6/24 games 7 shooting , here are MJs.
*1996 finals.*
9 18 .500 
9 22 .409 
11 23 .478
6 19 .316 
11 22 .500
5 19 .263 
*1997 finals*
13 27 .481
11 20 .550 
9 22 .409 
11 27 .407 
13 27 .481 
15 35 .429 
*1998 finals*
13 29 .448
14 33 .424 
7 14 .500 
12 27 .444
9 26 .346
15 35 .429 


So lets not act like Jordan was perfect.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

And none of those teams were as good defensively as the Celtics.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

Also, I think an issue people don't look at enough is that Kobe probably didn't like being Shaq's *teammate*, not his "sidekick". I don't think Kobe would have cared playing sidekick to Shaq. I just think he couldn't stand Shaq from a teammate perspective. And honestly, who would? I mean, especially somebody who works as hard as Kobe during the offseason and takes practice seriously. He was probably grinding his teeth as he had to watch the supposed leader of the team drag ass in practice and put on the pounds during the offseason because Shaq was a lazy slob. I guarantee you somebody like Kobe probably couldn't stand that.

I don't think it had anything to do with "sidekick". It was probably just being his teammate in general. I mean, if anybody on the current Lakers roster has the work ethic that Shaq does, don't you think Kobe would be ****ing furious?

I mean, you put two people on a team, and they are the two best players of that team. And one of them busts his ass during the offseason and during practice while the other just relies on his physical strength and natural ability but doesn't really invest anytime in any of his weaknesses and just goes through the motions, what do you think is going to happen?


----------



## John

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Theonee said:


> For people who keeps on pointing at why Kobe's 6/24 games 7 shooting , here are MJs.
> *1996 finals.*
> 9 18 .500
> 9 22 .409
> 11 23 .478
> 6 19 .316
> 11 22 .500
> 5 19 .263
> *1997 finals*
> 13 27 .481
> 11 20 .550
> 9 22 .409
> 11 27 .407
> 13 27 .481
> 15 35 .429
> *1998 finals*
> 13 29 .448
> 14 33 .424
> 7 14 .500
> 12 27 .444
> 9 26 .346
> 15 35 .429
> 
> 
> So lets not act like Jordan was perfect.


Wait until Kobe is 2 years older before you compare his numbers to Jordan 1996. Jordan was 33 already when playing in 96. How about Jordan 1993 numbers Vs Kobe 2009 numbers? That's more realistic.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*



mysterio said:


> Michael Wilbon (I think) just claimed Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time, ahead of Magic. Really?


"The greatest Laker" is a distinction only 2 men are warranted: Jerry West and Chick Hearn.
That being said, 
I don't think Kobe Bryant has passed Buck yet. Nor that he is Magic's par.
But give him a couple of years...


----------



## Theonee

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



John said:


> Wait until Kobe is 2 years older before you compare his numbers to Jordan 1996. Jordan was 33 already when playing in 96. How about Jordan 1993 numbers Vs Kobe 2009 numbers? That's more realistic.


This is more of a reply to people that are saying Kobe does not deserve finals MVP because he had one or two bad games, I am just pointing out that Jordan won finals MVP despite having few bad games.
Now for your age comparison.
1996 was Jordan's 12th season.
2010 is Kobe's 14th season.

You do the math.


----------



## John

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*



Theonee said:


> This is more of a reply to people that are saying Kobe does not deserve finals MVP because he had one or two bad games, I am just pointing out that Jordan won finals MVP despite having few bad games.
> Now for your age comparison.
> 1996 was Jordan's 12th season.
> 2010 is Kobe's 14th season.
> 
> You do the math.


Both are great players, Kobe relies on a bit more on his jumpers and Jordan at age 35 would still get to the hoop easier than Kobe would now. It's not about the zone defense and stuff and it is just the first step Jordan has is quicker.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Kobe Bryant has now surpassed Jordan in Finals appearances*

He did have two years off too, whereas Kobe has been going fullbore about all year long for years now.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

I have Kobe around six all time. 

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Kobe

At least i think that's where is career ends.


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*



mysterio said:


> Michael Wilbon (I think) just claimed Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time, ahead of Magic. Really?


Nah. He's still behind three Lakers, although he can still move up.

1) Wilt
2) Magic
3) Jordan
4) Kareem
5) Duncan
6) Kobe

A little bit of overreaction on Wilbon's part, but media people always do this. I have Kobe at 6th all time too.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

Wilbon has said many times that he views Magic as the greatest laker, and that he thinks Kobe is a top-15 not top-10 player.


----------



## [Myst.]

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*



Knicks4life said:


> Wilbon has said many times that he views Magic as the greatest laker, and that he thinks Kobe is a top-15 not top-10 player.


Actually, Wilbon thinks Kobe just made the top 20 with his 5th ring. I don't think I've ever heard him say more than 5 or 6 names before he gets stuck. 

I personally think that in terms of playing career, Kobe will be up there with Magic once he's done. Right now he's still behind Magic. Jerry West, in my opinion would be the greatest Laker based on what he's done for the organization as a whole (playing career and as a GM).


----------



## and1king

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

I know this is a Magic vs. Kobe thread - but what about the Big O?

Was either better than the Big O?

http://www.nba.com/history/players/robertson_summary.html

:whoknows:


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*



and1king said:


> I know this is a Magic vs. Kobe thread - but what about the Big O?
> 
> Was either better than the Big O?
> 
> http://www.nba.com/history/players/robertson_summary.html
> 
> :whoknows:


Magic was.
Kobe, not yet.


----------



## Basel

*Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh3qj2SDwXqP99fQ3S


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

adam was a good college player.... sometimes the transition from college to the pros just doesn't pan out..... Beasley comes to mind, marvin williams etc..

guys are drafted on potential all the time. I guess since jordan is, well, jordan, he gets singled out...

and michael has said this before.... the player closest to him skillset wise is Kobe


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



ChosenFEW said:


> guys are drafted on potential all the time. I guess since jordan is, well, jordan, he gets singled out...


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

Old video is old.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

I'm trying to figure out what his draft picks have to do with anything.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Hibachi! said:


> Old video is old.


I think it's a new video of him reiterating what he's said before.


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> I'm trying to figure out what his draft picks have to do with anything.


Sounds like a tough one to figure out.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> I'm trying to figure out what his draft picks have to do with anything.


Jakain has a hard time accepting that all the old greats respect Kobe more for his competiveness and tenacity and despise Lebron's showboating and hi-jinks. As a result it clouds their judgement. I tried to tell him this months ago but he was adamant that the whole world viewed LeBron as the best.


----------



## f22egl

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

I'll throw MJ a bone:


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Jamel Irief said:


> Jakain has a hard time accepting that all the old greats respect Kobe more for his competiveness and tenacity and despise Lebron's showboating and hi-jinks. As a result it clouds their judgement. I tried to tell him this months ago but he was adamant that the whole world viewed LeBron as the best.


Well Kobe/LA did end up with MJ's mistakes in Adam Morrison and Kwame Brown so I suppose you guys do take his opinions that seriously


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Jakain said:


> Well Kobe/LA did end up with MJ's mistakes in Adam Morrison and Kwame Brown so I suppose you guys do take his opinions that seriously


I don't value his opinion for anything. He's an egomaniac who clearly doesn't know what he's doing. You just fail to realize that the hall of famers don't respect LeBron's demeanor or leadership.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

Jakain stop baiting and keep this on topic.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Jakain said:


> Well Kobe/LA did end up with MJ's mistakes in Adam Morrison and Kwame Brown so I suppose you guys do take his opinions that seriously


And we got Pau Gasol out of the latter. :cheers:


----------



## King George

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Jakain said:


> Well Kobe/LA did end up with MJ's mistakes in Adam Morrison and Kwame Brown so I suppose you guys do take his opinions that seriously


And Kwame got us Gasol. Thanks Kwame:baseldance:


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Jamel Irief said:


> I don't value his opinion for anything.


Calling bull**** here, I think you value his opinion on this topic 



> He's an egomaniac who clearly doesn't know what he's doing.
> 
> You just fail to realize that the hall of famers don't respect LeBron's demeanor or leadership.


Their opinions will change like they did of Kobe if those rings start coming in. Taking less than max money and assembling a team-first ballclub might get a ton of respect later on - doesn't seem common for HOFers take on less than max cash or give up individual stats like that in their mid 20's.



Dre™;6320838 said:


> Jakain stop baiting and keep this on topic.


Pfft, these posts are tame and the point was similar to that of a mod's in another topic with that clip anyway 



Basel said:


> And we got Pau Gasol out of the latter. :cheers:


:baseldance:


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

Like I said.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

It probably never helped Lebron that he played for the Cavs, a team Jordan loved to torture in his day.

but yeah a lot of those guys of Jordan's era don't like Lebron right now. As he matures and gets some championships that opinion will change.


----------



## MojoPin

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

There is a difference between evaluating incoming talent and evaluating already established talent.

The whole "Jordan picked Adam Morrison" argument is moot.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



futuristxen said:


> It probably never helped Lebron that he played for the Cavs, a team Jordan loved to torture in his day.
> 
> but yeah a lot of those guys of Jordan's era don't like Lebron right now. As he matures and gets some championships that opinion will change.


I don't know, Lebron may win alot of rings, but some legends may still hold it against him for leaving and going to Wade's team.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

People thought Kobe was immature 10 years ago too.

As soon as the media starts ramping out the charts showing LeBron's steady decline in shot attempts and PPG as the Heat win rings, then you'll see a "change of heart". 

Legends are just like kids when a new one comes into the neighborhood. They're just punking him and calling him out to see what he's made of.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Game3525 said:


> I don't know, Lebron may win alot of rings, but some legends may still hold it against him for leaving and going to Wade's team.


None of them apparently hold it against Kobe for playing with Shaq, Gasol, Karl Malone, Payton, Artest and so on and so forth. Or Bill Russell for all of the Hall of Famers he played with.

If 10 years from now Lebron has like 8 titles, no one will be able to say anything. Lebron will just flash two fistfuls of rings, and the discussion will be over.

But the thing is he needs to win a lot of titles for this to be a part of his arguement for GOAT. Like at least as many as Jordan. 

If he makes himself synonomous with winning what can you say?

I mean look at this possible resume:
4 regular season MVPs
6 Finals MVPs
2 Gold Medals
A 75 win team

That's a lot to do for sure, but it's not crazy crazy talk. And if it happened, no one would care who he played with.


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Jakain said:


> Calling bull**** here, I think you value his opinion on this topic
> 
> 
> 
> Their opinions will change like they did of Kobe if those rings start coming in. Taking less than max money and assembling a team-first ballclub might get a ton of respect later on - doesn't seem common for HOFers take on less than max cash or give up individual stats like that in their mid 20's.
> 
> 
> 
> Pfft, these posts are tame and the point was similar to that of a mod's in another topic with that clip anyway
> 
> 
> 
> :baseldance:



Having the one hour special because he is an attention whore isn't going to help LeBron win any fans.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

That special is gonna be like 5 years old when it becomes time to really consider his legacy, that's going to be a negligible issue.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



futuristxen said:


> None of them apparently hold it against Kobe for playing with Shaq, Gasol, Karl Malone, Payton, Artest and so on and so forth. Or Bill Russell for all of the Hall of Famers he played with.
> 
> If 10 years from now Lebron has like 8 titles, no one will be able to say anything. Lebron will just flash two fistfuls of rings, and the discussion will be over.
> 
> But the thing is he needs to win a lot of titles for this to be a part of his arguement for GOAT. Like at least as many as Jordan.
> 
> If he makes himself synonomous with winning what can you say?
> 
> I mean look at this possible resume:
> 4 regular season MVPs
> 6 Finals MVPs
> 2 Gold Medals
> A 75 win team
> 
> That's a lot to do for sure, but it's not crazy crazy talk. And if it happened, no one would care who he played with.


People did hold it against Kobe for winning with Shaq, the only reason it went away was because he won as the clear cut man on his team. People may hold it against Lebron because he went to Wade's team, another alpha dog in the league. Some of these legends are really really old school about this.


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



futuristxen said:


> None of them apparently hold it against Kobe for playing with Shaq, Gasol, Karl Malone, Payton, Artest and so on and so forth. Or Bill Russell for all of the Hall of Famers he played with.
> 
> If 10 years from now Lebron has like 8 titles, no one will be able to say anything. Lebron will just flash two fistfuls of rings, and the discussion will be over.
> 
> But the thing is he needs to win a lot of titles for this to be a part of his arguement for GOAT. Like at least as many as Jordan.
> 
> If he makes himself synonomous with winning what can you say?
> 
> I mean look at this possible resume:
> 4 regular season MVPs
> 6 Finals MVPs
> 2 Gold Medals
> A 75 win team
> 
> That's a lot to do for sure, but it's not crazy crazy talk. And if it happened, no one would care who he played with.


I don't see that happening. I'm going out there and saying it now, LeBron will never have as many rings as Kobe. People forget that a LeBron-Wade led team finished 3rd on the world stage. They didn't win it back until Kobe came onto the squad.


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> That special is gonna be like 5 years old when it becomes time to really consider his legacy, that's going to be a negligible issue.


I disagree, it's going to make him like a punk. Especially if Durant ends up with the same amount of titles as LeBron ten years from now.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Kenneth said:


> I disagree, it's going to make him like a punk. Especially if Durant ends up with the same amount of titles as LeBron ten years from now.


How is a 5 year old incident going to make him look like a punk? He'll have his haters because of it, but Kobe did a lot of weak **** that's been swept under the rug, so let's not live in the moment here. I can guarantee 5 years from now noone's gonna be talking about that as some defining reason why they can't see him as a GOAT contender, especially if he does what he's supposed to oncourt. 

And what do two rookies playing on Team USA have to do with the NBA?


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



futuristxen said:


> None of them apparently hold it against Kobe for playing with Shaq, Gasol, Karl Malone, Payton, Artest and so on and so forth. Or Bill Russell for all of the Hall of Famers he played with.
> 
> If 10 years from now Lebron has like 8 titles, no one will be able to say anything. Lebron will just flash two fistfuls of rings, and the discussion will be over.
> 
> But the thing is he needs to win a lot of titles for this to be a part of his arguement for GOAT. Like at least as many as Jordan.
> 
> If he makes himself synonomous with winning what can you say?
> 
> I mean look at this possible resume:
> 4 regular season MVPs
> 6 Finals MVPs
> 2 Gold Medals
> A 75 win team
> 
> That's a lot to do for sure, but it's not crazy crazy talk. And if it happened, no one would care who he played with.


I don't think he'll ever win 75 games. I don't think you win 75 games by just piling on with other superstars, especially when there's so much duplication between them. If the Olympics taught us anything, it's that having shooters, defenders, hustlers, and guys who know and perform their roles is MORE important than having tons of ubersuperstars who can stop the ball, create their own shot and get to the basket at will, and are not willing or able to do anything else.

I also don't think Lebron would keep the pedal to the metal that long. He's not angry enough and never has been. They would start dancing and hanging out and go 50/50 for the last 20 games. Nobody ever told Lebron he wasn't good enough. Jordan had one-in-a-million physical talent combined with a perfect storm of big brothers who kicked his ass at home, idiot coaches early in his career who cut him in high school, GM's who passed him over in the draft, and thuggish villain teams who bounced him out of the playoffs by publicly exposing and hammering on the one thing he didn't understand about the game. And all of them he eventually overcame by outgrowing and outdeveloping them. Until that psychological process of refusing to lose and the realization that if he didn't quit, he could shut up all of them and destroy everyone in his path...were ingrained in his brain permanently. That's what created Michael Jordan.

Lebron is an only child. He had no big brothers. He was always bigger and stronger and faster than the other kids. He's been the special one ever since he was born. He doesn't have the Everest-climbing mentality in his brain because he's always been at the top. No one to smash the ball back in his face and force him to learn an unstoppable shot like Kareem when he was younger and playing against older kids his own size. No bully to take his glasses and throw them in a truck's gas tank like happened to Mike Tyson when he was a kid.

Lebron is motivated by the desire to amaze others. People like to impress their mother and their coach and their audience. But nothing motivates like revenge. No mad scientist ever hid underground for 20 years building a super war machine in a novel because he wanted to show his Mom something really cool. The Count of Monte Cristo didn't stew in prison for a decade, engineer an escape and change his entire life just to see the smiles on people's faces. Those guys had somebody who did them wrong, and they would stop at nothing, over any amount of time, to come back and **** them up. Be amazed...witness...hang out with your buddies in Florida, hit full-court shots and grab rebounds over the backboard and win 65 games and go out in the Eastern Conference Finals and win maybe 2 rings...that's Lebron. Hammer out a dominant death machine of a team and never quit until you've won 70 games in a season, 6 rings in 10 years and crushed all other superstars, that's Jordan...it's also insane. And nothing we'll see from the pampered Boy King.

End rant.


----------



## BeeGee

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™;6320985 said:


> How is a 5 year old incident going to make him look like a punk? He'll have his haters because of it, but *Kobe did a lot of weak **** that's been swept under the rug*, so let's not live in the moment here.


There's a difference between keeping stuff hush-hush, and announcing that you're leaving Cleveland behind on the shadiest sports network, with Jim Gray, the most reptilian slimeball sitting across from you.

One can be easily forgotten about. The other is set up to never be forgotten, get it? It's even worse when 3 months prior, you stated on national TV that you wouldn't stop until you brought those same people that you're abandoning, a championship.

Just a tiny difference there.


----------



## King George

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

LeBron's legacy as a chump is solidified. Miami can win the next 12 rings, he'll still be seen as a chump.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

I'd rather do that than rat out my teammate to the police, or purposely throw a basketball at my coach's brittle feet, or pull a temper tantrum in a store when I see a Tracy McGrady poster instead of my own, or purposely not shoot for an entire half. 

Yep, I'd rather be an attention whore.


----------



## King George

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> I'd rather do that than rat out my teammate to the police, or purposely throw a basketball at my coach's brittle feet, or pull a temper tantrum in a store when I see a Tracy McGrady poster instead of my own, or purposely not shoot for an entire half.
> 
> Yep, I'd rather be an attention whore.


Did Shaq get indicted due to Kobe's loose lips? Furthermore how was Kobe privey to the information if Shaq or no one else liked him or ever talked to him? Talk about babies. Shaquille O'Neal is the biggest baby to ever live. Kobe learned his selfishness from Mr. I can't Stand Penny being more popular than me, so i'm going to L.A. . Mr. I Can't Stand Kobe being more populr than me, trade me. Mr. I'll wait to the start of the season to get surgery. Mr. I Won't play D or grab rebounds if I don't get as many touches as i feel I deserve. And LeBron flatout QUIT on Cleveland this year. he had no intentions of staying and winning a title would kill his "i want to win now" reason for bolting. He's a sucker plain and simple.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

LOL. 

Don't try to flip this into something about Shaq. Nothing you said in that post justifies any of Kobe's actions in my previous post.

My point is Kobe has plenty of **** in his closet that winning and being a model citizen will sweep under a rug, and the same thing will happen to LeBron.

Once people start obsessing about how unselfish he is and how he sacrificed his numbers after the Heat win a couple titles he'll be fine, and I'll probably bump this horse**** on said occasion. 

Let's not forget he was branded as Magic Johnson coming into the league anyway, he only become a torrential scorer out of necessity.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

wrong thread. Bron is better.


----------



## King George

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> LOL.
> 
> Don't try to flip this into something about Shaq. Nothing you said in that post justifies any of Kobe's actions in my previous post.
> 
> My point is Kobe has plenty of **** in his closet that winning and being a model citizen will sweep under a rug, and the same thing will happen to LeBron.
> 
> Once people start obsessing about how unselfish he is and how he sacrificed his numbers after the Heat win a couple titles he'll be fine, and I'll probably bump this horse**** on said occasion.
> 
> Let's not forget he was branded as Magic Johnson coming into the league anyway, he only become a torrential scorer out of necessity.


Point is Shaq is a piece of crap, i wouldn't care if Kobe stabbed him. Same for leBron. Kobe never said "aww the hell with it" I'm going to SA to play with Tim Duncan or whoever. He said he wanted to win give him something to work with.

The Heat won't win any titles. If Andrew Bynum can remain healthy no one can beat L.A. Wade, Bron and Bosh will still lose.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

The only point that matters in a thread about Kobe and LeBron is they both did corny ****, and LeBron will right those wrongs once he wins a couple titles. 

The Heat will be together for at least 6 years too, the Lakers run isn't lasting that long.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

LeBron's clearly better as of now. But going into next year I would absolutely rather have Kobe on the Lakers if that makes any sense.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

Jordan already knows that noone will ever seriously believe that Kobe was better than him. Nothing can change that. He doesn't know that about Lebron.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



VanillaPrice said:


> LeBron's clearly better as of now. But going into next year I would absolutely rather have Kobe on the Lakers if that makes any sense.


I'm sorry it doesn't


----------



## King George

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> The only point that matters in a thread about Kobe and LeBron is they both did corny ****, and LeBron will right those wrongs once he wins a couple titles.
> 
> The Heat will be together for at least 6 years too, the Lakers run isn't lasting that long.


Sorry, but LeBron's winning won't silence anything. Kobe's haters said he couldn't win without Shaq and he proved them wrong!! LeBron winning with Wade a guy pretty much won a title singlehandedly with a few calls from the refs to help is not going to help his legacy in any way.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

Dude none of your posts have anything to do with anything. 

Stay focused here. 

Do people still really bring up the corny **** Kobe did back then? No.

Will anyone bring up this special 5 years later when he has about 2 rings and another MVP probably? No

I'm just trying to figure out where "bu bu but he had a narcisstic free agency special in 201!!0! he can't be better than Durant/Kobe/Jordan!1" factors into any legacy discussion that's not populated by people with mild retardation.

But alas maybe I'm already here.


----------



## King George

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> Dude none of your posts have anything to do with anything.
> 
> Stay focused here.
> 
> Do people still really bring up the corny **** Kobe did back then? No.
> 
> Will anyone bring up this special 5 years later when he has about 2 rings and another MVP probably? No
> 
> I'm just trying to figure out where "bu bu but he had a narcisstic free agency special in 201!!0! he can't be better than Durant/Kobe/Jordan!1" factors into any legacy discussion that's not populated by people with mild retardation.
> 
> But alas maybe I'm already here.


Kobe silenced the critics. he won without Shaq, period. he silenced them. Everybody loved LeBron he was god, then he pulled a sucker move, it can't and won't ever be forgotten.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

A lot of that stuff I posted was past just Kobe and Shaq..I didn't even mention Shaq..a lot of it is more "Kobe's a selfish *******".

Winning cures all. And I'll be sure to bump this BS in two years when the Heat win the title and the only people still talking about "the decision" are bitter haters and/or Laker fans.


----------



## King George

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> A lot of that stuff I posted was past just Kobe and Shaq..I didn't even mention Shaq..a lot of it is more "Kobe's a selfish *******".
> 
> Winning cures all. And I'll be sure to bump this BS in two years when the Heat win the title and the only people still talking about "the decision" are bitter haters and/or Laker fans.


Winning does not cure all. Kobe was winning and everybody was like well he got Shaq. Let's see what he do without Shaq. He won. Him telling on Shaq has nothing to do with basketball. Kobe's no more selfish than any other plyer , but he most certainly never pulled no sucker move like LeBron James did. Like I said he could win the next 12 rings, he ain't going to be respected for it.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

Whatever. Like I said I'll be here to bump this in two years.

People think the little vitriol they have today will last forever, two titles later nobodies going to call anything but this experiment a success and LeBron an unselfish superstar. If anything they'll probably see him dancing around like a kid again and play the "maybe we're too hard on him" card. 

We'll agree to disagree for now.


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> Whatever. Like I said I'll be here to bump this in two years.
> 
> People think the little vitriol they have today will last forever, two titles later nobodies going to call anything but this experiment a success and LeBron an unselfish superstar.


Everyone in Cleveland loves Art Modell, right?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

Do the people in Baltimore care?


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

Exactly...FOH.


----------



## John

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



King George said:


> Kobe silenced the critics. he won without Shaq, period. he silenced them. Everybody loved LeBron he was god, then he pulled a sucker move, it can't and won't ever be forgotten.


Well, Kobe won at the age of 30 as the man. He wouldnt have won without shaq when he was 21,22,23 as the man.


----------



## John

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



E.H. Munro said:


> Do the people in Baltimore care?


People in Hong Kong like me care.


----------



## afobisme

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

i guess mj hasn't witnessed the chosen one.

yeah, i really don't like lebron now. i like wade more, and i'd take wade over lebron. it's not about him signing with miami, but all that attention whoring... the tatoos of "chosen one" and "king james" and "1 hour specials" and having his "team" throw rumors around to draw interest. ugh, lebron is disgusting and i hope he never wins a title.


----------



## Ron

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> The only point that matters in a thread about Kobe and LeBron is they both did corny ****, and LeBron will right those wrongs once he wins a couple titles.


"IF"



> The Heat will be together for at least 6 years too, the Lakers run isn't lasting that long.


You mean the run that has lasted 11 years and produced 5 championships? That run?


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

The run that was interrupted for 3 years? Yeah that one.


----------



## King George

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



John said:


> Well, Kobe won at the age of 30 as the man. He wouldnt have won without shaq when he was 21,22,23 as the man.


Depends on the make up of the team really. he wouldn't win with bums like Soumaille Sasuske and Samake Walker on the frontline. Besides that LeBron James is 25. He came into the league with much fanfare heralded as the next god and he's pulls a sucker move. When Kobe came into the league people HATED his guts. Absolutely hated him. He showed and proved. Everybody loved LeBron and he pulled a sucker move, and will be hated for it for the rest of his life rings or no rings.


----------



## Ron

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> Whatever. Like I said I'll be here to bump this in two years.


More like three or four.

Anyway, we'll see who comes out on top in 2011.

It's going to be an interesting upcoming season.


----------



## Ron

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> The run that was interrupted for 3 years? Yeah that one.


You are seriously going to dis on a team that has won 5 titles in 11 years? Seriously?

Credibly?


----------



## King George

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> The run that was interrupted for 3 years? Yeah that one.


only because he was saddled with trash. If Kobe had what LeBRon had in Cleveland they would've never stopped winning.


----------



## King George

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Ron said:


> You are seriously going to dis on a team that has won 5 titles in 11 years? Seriously?
> 
> Credibly?


and 7 finals appearances


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Ron said:


> You are seriously going to dis on a team that has won 5 titles in 11 years? Seriously?
> 
> Credibly?


I'm not dissing them at all, I'm just saying there was a period of rebuilding within that run. That's undeniable.

Once Kobe's 35 it's going to be a different ballgame.


----------



## Ron

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> I'm not dissing them at all, I'm just saying there was a period of rebuilding within that run. That's undeniable.
> 
> Once Kobe's 35 it's going to be a different ballgame.


Two points here.

How many teams can rebuild on the fly that fast? Usually rebuilding takes years, if not decades...look at the Knicks. It took even Boston 22 years to return to the ring.

Second point is that we all age. Of course the Lakers' run will end, sooner rather than later, but its been sweet for Los Angeles these past 11 years. And there is every reason to be confident that it will continue...I sure don't see anyone in the West save OKC giving the Lakers an obstacle to another Finals appearance this upcoming season.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

I'm not even saying anything about any of that. I never dissed your run, but you already admitted right there the run will end sooner than later. Forgive me for thinking a team with two top 5s and a top 20er will pick up the slack.


----------



## King George

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Dre™ said:


> I'm not even saying anything about any of that. I never dissed your run, but you already admitted right there the run will end sooner than later. Forgive me for thinking a team with two top 5s and a top 20er will pick up the slack.


Lakers have another good 4 years at least maybe more if Bynum stays healthy. Not to mention Portland if they can stay healthy will be a problem as well. Miami is not going to breeze through and win .


----------



## Dre

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

Where did I say they're going to breeze through? You have a knack for stretching the parameters of the discussion.


----------



## Ron

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



King George said:


> Lakers have another good 4 years at least maybe more if Bynum stays healthy. Not to mention Portland if they can stay healthy will be a problem as well. Miami is not going to breeze through and win .


Miami is going to find Boston very formidable. They have unbelievable (UNBELIEVABLE) defenders.

Lakers/Boston AGAIN in 2011. I really believe it will happen.

Maybe Lakers/Heat in 2012 (or 2013, if the whole year is lost).


----------



## The One

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Ron said:


> Miami is going to find Boston very formidable. They have unbelievable (UNBELIEVABLE) defenders.


true but Perkins injury recovery and rehab will determind their fate. I hope he does get healthy.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



Ron said:


> Miami is going to find Boston very formidable. They have unbelievable (UNBELIEVABLE) defenders.
> 
> Lakers/Boston AGAIN in 2011. I really believe it will happen.
> 
> Maybe Lakers/Heat in 2012 (or 2013, if the whole year is lost).


It's too early for me to predict who will represent the East. If Miami gets just Miller and Haslem that's really enough for me to pick them. If not I'm going with Boston.

As for the Lakers run ending sooner than later Gasol and Odom are 30 and Kobe 31. Gasol and Kobe will both age very gracefully and will be all-NBA for the next 3-4 years. Bynum is only getting better and will hopefully go the Z and Camby route and go from injury prone to relative ironhorse.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

LeBron is better. He just had probably the two best seasons of the past two decades back to back. He didn't have a good playoffs this year, but he had probably the best playoff performance of all-time the year before. 

Only petty emo-fans would deny what he does on the court because of something that happened off the court in free agency. Those type of fans will probably hold it against LeBron forever, but hey, some people still deny Kobe his due (SPMJ, Dynasty Raider, etc). 

He can be a dramatic attention whore all he wants, none of that speaks to his game on the court. He is the best in the league and well on his way to GOAT status.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*



The One said:


> Ron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Miami is going to find Boston very formidable. They have unbelievable (UNBELIEVABLE) defenders.
> 
> 
> 
> true but Perkins injury recovery and rehab will determind their fate. I hope he does get healthy.
Click to expand...

That's the big question with Boston, they need another big body just in case. If Perkins is healthy by playoff time they get to play single coverage on Dwight which makes it easier for them to run Orlando's shooters off the three point line. He's also their best defensive rebounder, and keys their transition game. Hopefully the playoff Garnett is the guy they get next year, he's not as mobile as he used to be, but he is still able to cover some ground out there.

Noting the way that they signed Allen to a one and one deal I'm willing to bet you that Ainge is gearing up for a run at CP3 once he becomes available this November/December. Their desire to import two new guards (Fernandez & Barbosa) and retain their present reserve swingman (Tony Allen) all point to their anticipating using Ray as salary ballast (along with Rondo) in another major deal.



Ron said:


> Lakers/Boston AGAIN in 2011. I really believe it will happen.


Oh, it's happening all right.


----------



## MojoPin

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

Not sure why people think LAL will be done in a few years. Yeah, it might be the end of the Kobe era, but someone will replace him.


----------



## afobisme

*Re: Michael Jordan On Who's Better: Kobe or LeBron?*

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/articles/2010/07/11/heats_competitors_warm_to_the_challenge/

larry bird concurs.


----------



## swu2208

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*

kobe all the way


----------



## Ballscientist

*Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Barkley says:
"LeBron's biggest problem is … he's closer to Scottie Pippen than Michael Jordan. What I mean by this is that … Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant(notes) want to get 30 points a night, no matter what. I think LeBron James would rather have a triple-double … I heard some people say you criticize LeBron-comparing him to Scottie Pippen is not a criticism, you damn fools."

"Listen I know this ain't gonna go over well in Miami cuz these fans are a bunch of wussies down there"

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-10548095

Steve Kerr said something like this 6 months ago.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

He's in the ballpark. I think LeBron is just the very first LeBron, and that's what people have to realize, but Pippen is a better comparison skillset wise than Jordan, even though defensively Pippen takes it to another level.

Damn though it was just a week ago we were arguing about the length of restricted free agency...now we're back to talking about what matters :yep:


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Jordan was actually a pretty sick stat-whore and had a whole season (88-89) when he chased Triple-Doubles viciously.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Yeah I'm reading the Jordan Rules now, they had to outlaw the statistician or whatever giving him information


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

I don't think in the end that Scottie Pippen is the best way to go about discussing Lebron just because people associate Pippen with sidekick without even thinking about his skills and what he did for the Bulls.

It'd be a lot easier to just say Lebron is like the Big O. Or Lebron is like...the first of his kind.

I think if I had to explain his game using other players it would be like Larry Bird without the Jumpshot in Karl Malones body.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

It still puzzles me seing someone comparing Lebron James to Michael Jordan (even if in a lesser manner).

Lebron James' proper comparisons should be the likes of a Tracy McGrady, an Allen Iverson, an Adrian Dantley or George GErvin.

I understand Chuck talking comparing dude to Pippen, cause it seems Lebron James will bem for the near future, Wade's sidekick, though...


----------



## Dre

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

LeBron got compared to MJ after Kobe "failed" to live up to those standards. The hypebeast is always after the next one, and LeBron appeared to be that guy to challenge the throne, that's all. 

I remember when people were comparing LeBron more favorably to Magic because of his passing, but then he came into the league scoring whenever he wanted and the expectations raised.

What's stupid about the Pippen sidekick crap is that the Heat would've won the finals last year with a prime Pippen. Pippen would've seriously hindered what Dirk was doing.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Also today Shaq said Rondo is better than CP3. So the TNT booth is getting a running start on dumbshit this year.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Why can't he just be the first Lebron James?

Seriously, he has been playing for nearly a decade now and people are still trying to define him as a player, it just seems ridiculous IMO.......


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Dre said:


> I remember when people were comparing LeBron more favorably to Magic because of his passing, but then he came into the league scoring whenever he wanted and the expectations raised.
> .


not sure you can raise expectations much higher than that - I think it had to do with not just his passing (which let's face it, is not in Magic's stratosphere) but just the blatant fact of his height and ability to function in a guard like capacity


----------



## Dre

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

I guess you think Magic > MJ, but me and 99% of the non Laker nation disagree, so yeah replicating Jordan's career would be more impressive than Magic's. But that's a whole other can of worms

I will say there was a time in Cleveland where I legitimately thought he could become the viable alternative to Jordan because of his passing ability, but his performance against Boston and then Dallas just erased all of that.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Scottie Pippen was the ****ing man. That is all I have to contribute to this thread.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Dre said:


> I guess you think Magic > MJ, but me and 99% of the non Laker nation disagree, so yeah replicating Jordan's career would be more impressive than Magic's. But that's a whole other can of worms


in fact I dont but the difference between being the 4th or 5th best player ever and being the 1st or 2nd best player ever isnt so far that it would make such a big whoop that you can talk about 'raising the bar' that much higher - the thing is there was a time when any guy over 6'7" who could concievably play some sort of a 'point' role (Anfernee or Steve Smith for instance (and with the latter it didnt help that he was a spartan either)) was dubbed 'the next Magic' much as any wing who comes out and can put up 30 with any regularity runs the risk of having to wear the 'next mike' moniker



> I will say there was a time in Cleveland where I legitimately thought he could become the viable alternative to Jordan because of his passing ability, but his performance against Boston and then Dallas just erased all of that.


I think to talk about passing or even just scoring in regards to Mike misses the point of his brilliance and its the same mistake with 'tall and guard-like' for Magic - that's not how to define what made those guys great - and yeah now it's pretty clear that Bron does not have whatever that 'it' is - and that puts me and maybe you in the unenviable position of agreeing with Chuckles because I suspect that's what he's getting after and in that he's being a ton more astute than Shaq with his rondo/paul comments


----------



## Dre

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



e-monk said:


> in fact I dont but the difference between being the 4th or 5th best player ever and being the 1st or 2nd best player ever isnt so far that it would make such a big whoop that you can talk about 'raising the bar' that much higher


Let's be real. People idolize Jordan as the undisputed GOAT, most other sports don't have that besides Hockey. So it's not just 4 vs. 1 (which is still a huge gap in itself IMO), it's about dethroning the king of kings. If LeBron were able to replicate Jordan's accolades and legacy in this era he'd probably become the new logo by the time he retired, the hype would be apoplectic. 

And Magic was the shit, don't get me wrong, but Magic himself admitted in his book Mike was on a whole other level. 




> - the thing is there was a time when any guy over 6'7" who could concievably play some sort of a 'point' role (Anfernee or Steve Smith for instance (and with the latter it didnt help that he was a spartan either)) was dubbed 'the next Magic' much as any wing who comes out and can put up 30 with any regularity runs the risk of having to wear the 'next mike' moniker


Yeah, but LeBron was also the first to be dubbed that in this new era where the hype ordains you before you even step on a pro court, so it was more serious. You have so many outlets and resources of information that they try to speak the truth into existence. He had more hype then even Penny probably. 



> I think to talk about passing or even just scoring in regards to Mike misses the point of his brilliance and its the same mistake with 'tall and guard-like' for Magic - that's not how to define what made those guys great - and yeah now it's pretty clear that Bron does not have whatever that 'it' is - and that puts me and maybe you in the unenviable position of agreeing with Chuckles because I suspect that's what he's getting after and in that he's being a ton more astute than Shaq with his rondo/paul comments


I agree. I mean I wasn't devaluing, I just felt like at one point LeBron was on a path to match Jordan in just about every aspect of his greatness...except he was a passer better than most point guards, which would tip the scales. I feel like no matter what Kobe did outside of videogame absurdity he would just never be Jordan because he was a clone and you'd just choose the original...but if LeBron were to replicate his best Cleveland moments throughout his career and win titles he would have been the guy where people say "LeBron could replicate Jordan's impact but he's also a better passer than Jordan ever was", and that could have been his edge. Of course at this point it's a moot point.


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Dre said:


> Let's be real. People idolize Jordan as the undisputed GOAT, most other sports don't have that besides Hockey. So it's not just 4 vs. 1 (which is still a huge gap in itself IMO), it's about dethroning the king of kings. If LeBron were able to replicate Jordan's accolades and legacy in this era he'd probably become the new logo by the time he retired, the hype would be apoplectic.
> 
> And Magic was the shit, don't get me wrong, but Magic himself admitted in his book Mike was on a whole other level.


I find this comment a little disrespectful to Magic. He was more than just the shit...he was the greatest point guard who ever lived and basically a freak of nature who can't be repeated. Jordan had 6 rings, but Magic had 5 playing in what most consider a tougher era. Jordan's points + assists come out to 40.7 points created per game, Magic's points + assists come out to 41.9. 

In other words, Magic was also All-Time #1 at his position, was just as big a winner, statistically a greater offensive force than Jordan, and was even more of a one-off (you've seen plenty of Next Jordans, how many Next Magics have there been?).

Michael edges Magic because of his defensive ability, but the truth is...Magic was incredible and acting like there's no comparison is just silly. Magic would say things like that, but Magic made a career out of being selfless. That doesn't mean much.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Plus you don't really see players who pattern their games after what Magic did. So it's even more rare. Jason Kidd was magic-like, but much much smaller.

Lebron's the closest to that 6-9 point guard guy, and he's not that. Despite all of the positions Lebron plays, he's pretty much a straight 3. And will probably be a 4 once he's much older and loses his quickness to defend 3s.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Dre said:


> I guess you think Magic > MJ, but me and* 99% of the non Laker nation disagree*, so yeah replicating Jordan's career would be more impressive than Magic's. But that's a whole other can of worms
> 
> I will say there was a time in Cleveland where I legitimately thought he could become the viable alternative to Jordan because of his passing ability, but his performance against Boston and then Dallas just erased all of that.


I wouldn't say that. Magic has as good of a case as anyone else when talking about the best players of all time. 

Now to go on a little tangent -

People have been saying it for years, but LeBron should really just decide whether he wants to take the Jordan route or the Magic route, because he has the ability to do either in some capacity. Either way it will be better than this awkward 27+ PPG 7+ assist guy that isn't the defacto point guard but also won't take the tough shots down the stretch. 

James needs to learn the "less is more" rule. Jordan had 37 PPG seasons, 32/8/8 seasons ect. but wasn't winning anything until he put up a more "modest" 30/5/5s with killer D and dominant fourt quarter play. ****, look at any of the games great players - Wilt wasn't winning anything when he was putting up 50 a game, same with Kobe putting up 35 or Oscar Robertson's five year triple double streak.

Now, I'm not saying that LeBron should fully follow Magic's lead and try to completely replicate Johnson's feats, because that would be impossible. Magic was a significantly better passer than James, but LeBron is a better scorer. I feel like at this point LeBron would be better off putting up something like 23/7/9, run the offense, anchor the defense, but let Dwyane (who has a much more natural Jordan/Kobe esque approach to scoring the basketball) put up the points and lead the team down the stretch.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

What Lebron does is to decide what he needs to do depending upon the talent on the team he is on. What he needs to do is to play with someone who can help him out a little. When he played on Team USA you saw what he could do if he were playing with a great creator, but he has never even played with an ordinary point guard who could make a play for him occasionally. If you could get him the ball ahead of the defense on a sustained basis it would be close to impossible to stop him. Mostly he has played on teams that made it as simple as possible for the defense to defend him.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

I'm just not subscribing to Magic being better than Jordan, miss me with that. I already said the man himself agrees Mike is the best.

Y'all are getting overly sensitive in here. It's like it's hard to say one player is better than the other without you feeling like the other is being disrespected...not the case. Magic is in my top 3 if you read that thread in the comparison board..but Mike is better, and substantially in my opinion. So therefore replicating Jordan's career would be more impressive than Magic, and that's where I'm at with it. We can agree to disagree.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Which one is correct?
1. Charles Barkley is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan.
2. Wade is Closer to Michael Jordan Than Scottie Pippen.
3. Marc Gasol is closer to Shaq than Pau Gasol.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Dre said:


> I'm just not subscribing to Magic being better than Jordan, miss me with that. I already said the man himself agrees Mike is the best.
> 
> Y'all are getting overly sensitive in here. It's like it's hard to say one player is better than the other without you feeling like the other is being disrespected...not the case. Magic is in my top 3 if you read that thread in the comparison board..but Mike is better, and substantially in my opinion. So therefore replicating Jordan's career would be more impressive than Magic, and that's where I'm at with it. We can agree to disagree.


Magic also says that Larry Bird was better than him, and that's not true.

But I can see what you're saying. Personally I don't see how either one of them is better than the other, but if you've got Johnson around the top 3 or so then that's fair.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

No one will have a chance of supplanting MJ until the youngest of the MJ generation is much older, and the middle age basketball fan of that time barely recalls MJ.


----------



## Wade County

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Lets just settle it and say Lebron is some sort of freak hybrid of Jordan and Pippen. He's capable of 50 point games, just as he's capable of putting up triple doubles and locking down on D. On any given night he could be either.

And im not saying he's better than Mike, cause we all know he isnt.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

What's so off about this? If I had to pick one that he is closer out of those two to it would be Pippen. Right down to the maturity and leadership issues.


----------



## Wade County

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

I think its mainly to do with the fact Lebron is just straight up more dominant than Pippen, particularly offensively. Thats no disrespect to Scottie, who was one of my favourite players.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> Plus you don't really see players who pattern their games after what Magic did. So it's even more rare. Jason Kidd was magic-like, but much much smaller.


I've seen people say that alot but they're missing something, Kidd was no more like Magic than any other pass unselfish first point guard (except for maybe his tendency to work the boards)

could Kidd post up against a center effectively? Magic could have been a 30ppg guy but that's not how he was going to win rings - there is no universe in which Kidd could be a 30ppg guy at will


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Wade County said:


> I think its mainly to do with the fact Lebron is just straight up more dominant than Pippen, particularly offensively. Thats no disrespect to Scottie, who was one of my favourite players.


Scottie would have dominated Lebron defensively making that 'dominant offense' go away


----------



## Diable

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

That is nonsense. In fact right now Lebron is pretty much on the same level as Pippen defensively, he just does not have the same versatility against really quick guys. Lebron would get his on Pippen just like he does any other elite defender. What made Pippen special was that he had a pretty full range of skills, but he was not nearly as versatile as Lebron is now and he was not nearly as good. Pippen is better than Wade in my opinion from a team standpoint and would be a much better complement to Lebron because of his passing and ballhandling abilities. Pippen provided what Jordan and those Bulls needed, and he would do the same for Lebron and free him up to be a more dominant offensive player.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

You would rather build a team around Pippen instead of Wade?


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Diable said:


> *This* is nonsense: In fact right now Lebron is pretty much on the same level as Pippen defensively





here, I fixed 'this' for you, seriously funny thing to say, I do hope you were joking


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Diable said:


> That is nonsense. In fact right now Lebron is pretty much on the same level as Pippen defensively


oh wait, no I get it

you mean 'right now' right now - so is Lebron as good a defender as a 46 year old Scottie Pippen? I think you're underestimating him - let's say he's somewhere in between the 46 year old version and 28 year old all world one who took all the primaray assignments off Mike's hands


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

I'm biased, but statistics aside, I'd rather have a prime Pippen than a prime Wade... Pippen was that good defensively, and honestly, could have averaged more assists in a different offensive system, he was an excellent playmaker. I guess it depends on what you need, but as a foundational piece I think I'd take a prime Pippen.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Wade County said:


> I think its mainly to do with the fact Lebron is just straight up more dominant than Pippen, particularly offensively. Thats no disrespect to Scottie, who was one of my favourite players.


Yeah, but he's still not closer to Jordan than he is Pippen. Jordan was a much more versatile scorer and obviously kills him in intangibles.

If Pippen is a 6, Lebron a 7 and Jordan a 9 who would that make him closer to?


----------



## Diable

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Lebron is going to finish up a top five player in the NBA, Pippen is not as close to him as he is to Jordan. If you say that then where are you going to put Kobe. Because Kobe clearly is not as good as Lebron and this stupidity puts Kobe below Pippen, which is a lot damn closer to the truth.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

1) Kobe has accomplished a hell of a lot more than Lebron has and skill-set and mind-set wise is a hell of a lot closer to Mike (on purpose granted) than Lebron is

2) Now Lebron has set himself up to play Scottie's role while Wade steps into the Mike scorer/closer role which means that if things stay this way he never will accomplish what Kobe has (let alone Mike) and his accomplishments will more closely mirror those of Scottie's 6 titles as a great second banana(assuming he wins 6 titles which we have no reason to assume either)


I think what Chuck is talking about isnt quality of play or potential which I suspect is where you're going off the rails - what it seems to me he's getting after is mind-set, Lebron seemed uncomfortable being the #1 guy and seems content to be the #2 swiss army knife type of player Pippen was (albeit better than Pippen in some ways but also not as good as him in others)


----------



## Pinball

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

I think Lebron is an awesome player. Physically, I don't think I've ever seen anything like him. He's obviously tremendously productive as well. I just think people get too wrapped up in the statistics sometimes. Lebron averaged 30-8-8 so he has to be as good as "....." or he has a PER of 30 so he has to be better than "....". I saw Magic and Bird towards the tail end of their careers but I saw Jordan in his prime. Lebron may be as good statistically as Jordan but perhaps that's why I take statistics with a grain of salt because I don't think he's anywhere near as dominant as Jordan was. In flashes certainly but not consistently.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Diable said:


> Lebron is going to finish up a top five player in the NBA, Pippen is not as close to him as he is to Jordan. If you say that then where are you going to put Kobe. Because Kobe clearly is not as good as Lebron and this stupidity puts Kobe below Pippen, which is a lot damn closer to the truth.


You are clearly talking about the future, I am talking about today. Damn, hell. 

Pippen is a top 40 player of all time. 

Lebron is top 30. 

Jordan is top 5. 

And since you asked about Kobe (why?) he's top 10

Hell

Damn

All this is irrelevant anyways. Barkley was talking about skillset. Jannero Pargo is closer to isiah thomas than he is manute bol.


----------



## Wade County

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Jamel Irief said:


> Yeah, but he's still not closer to Jordan than he is Pippen. Jordan was a much more versatile scorer and obviously kills him in intangibles.
> 
> If Pippen is a 6, Lebron a 7 and Jordan a 9 who would that make him closer to?


But if Pippen is a 7, Lebron an 8 and Jordan a 9 - THEN who is he closer to? :laugh:


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

LeBron will finish his career as the best player to ever play. Conversations like this will seems as stupid as when people were saying Jordan will never be as good as Bird and Magic. Shaq will never win a title. Kobe can't win without Shaq. And all the other stupid shit shortsighted ass sports fans say because what they expected didn't happen that second.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Jamel Irief said:


> You are clearly talking about the future, I am talking about today. Damn, hell.
> 
> Pippen is a top 40 player of all time.
> 
> Lebron is top 30.
> 
> Jordan is top 5.
> 
> And since you asked about Kobe (why?) he's top 10
> 
> Hell
> 
> Damn
> 
> All this is irrelevant anyways. Barkley was talking about skillset. Jannero Pargo is closer to isiah thomas than he is manute bol.


30 is closer to 40 then 5.:greatjob:


----------



## Geaux Tigers

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

I have a Scottie Pippen rookie card, but I don't have a Jordan rookie card. That's what I love most about Scottie...his accessibility.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



MemphisX said:


> LeBron will finish his career as the best player to ever play. Conversations like this will seems as stupid as when people were saying Jordan will never be as good as Bird and Magic. Shaq will never win a title. Kobe can't win without Shaq. And all the other stupid shit shortsighted ass sports fans say because what they expected didn't happen that second.


People said Jordan couldn't be Magic or Bird because he was too selfish..he fixed that and won 6 titles. 

LeBron might finally rise to the occasion but he's already blown his chance compared to someone with a flawless record in the Finals. It's hardly a shortsighted thing, I mean what he has to get more 4th quarters under his belt before he rises to the occasion? Is that it?

I believed the same thing about LeBron two years ago, but he will never be able to get over what he turned into vs. the Celtics and Heat and noone else should forget unless he rattles off like 8 titles in a row.

It would just take an overwhelming amount of dominance for me to say I'd rather have him before Mike after those showings. Mike never came up as pathetic on big stages. 

I'll be one of those old heads telling kids about how LeBron was scared to take it to the rack against Jason Terry in the 4th quarter of the NBA finals, so he can take whatever rings he has in 15 years and shove them compared to MJ. 

You just can't have moments like that when you're trying to be the best ever. And you can throw whatever stats and PERs and whatever else you want at me, end of the day moments count too, and that could *never* be MJ. 

And all that said LeBron is still easily the best player in the league *when he wants to be*.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Dre said:


> You just can't have moments like that when you're trying to be the best ever. And you can throw whatever stats and PERs and whatever else you want at me, end of the day moments count too, and that could *never* be MJ.


Yeah because MJ never lost a game or a playoff series. He never ever played badly. Give me a break. Rings ALWAYS erase memories. If he wins a bunch of titles closing them all out like he closed out the Bulls and Celtics this year, his struggles will be part of the mythology--that he had to take the embarrassing losses so he could get better and learn to be a better player.

He's clearly going to have his own unique kind of a career, there's no way of judging right now whether in the end it was better or worse than Jordan's. 

I do remember at this stage of Jordan's career his reputation was basically Allen Iverson's. He was viewed as a brilliant ball hogging chucker who couldn't make his teammates better, and would never win the titles that Magic and Bird won, because he didn't play the right way.

Now in hindsight the way he played is viewed as the model. Now if you aren't a greedy ball hogging chucker then you don't have killer instinct and you can't be the greatest.

That rubric can always be rewritten.


----------



## Tom

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Both of them quit in big games so they are similar


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



VanillaPrice said:


> You would rather build a team around Pippen instead of Wade?


93-94 Chicago Bulls, Scottie Pippen + Smattering of good role players (BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, Limited Minutes of Toni Kukoc) = 55-27, 2nd Round Playoff Exit.

08-09 Miami Heat, Dwyane Wade + Smattering of good role players (Udonis Haslem, Michael Beasley, Limited Minutes of Jermaine O'Neal and Shawn Marion) = 43-39, 1st Round Playoff Exit.

Team Built Around Scottie Pippen > Team Built Around Dwyane Wade.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> I do remember at this stage of Jordan's career his reputation was basically Allen Iverson's. He was viewed as a brilliant ball hogging chucker who couldn't make his teammates better, and would never win the titles that Magic and Bird won, because he didn't play the right way.
> 
> Now in hindsight the way he played is viewed as the model. Now if you aren't a greedy ball hogging chucker then you don't have killer instinct and you can't be the greatest.
> 
> That rubric can always be rewritten.


Better jog your memory, at this stage in his career Jordan had just come off his second championship and finals MVP. Destroying Clyde Drexler in the finals after people started openly wondering if Clyde was better.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



EGarrett said:


> 93-94 Chicago Bulls, Scottie Pippen + Smattering of good role players (BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, Limited Minutes of Toni Kukoc) = 55-27, 2nd Round Playoff Exit.
> 
> 08-09 Miami Heat, Dwyane Wade + Smattering of good role players (Udonis Haslem, Michael Beasley, Limited Minutes of Jermaine O'Neal and Shawn Marion) = 43-39, 1st Round Playoff Exit.
> 
> Team Built Around Scottie Pippen > Team Built Around Dwyane Wade.


both Grant and Armstrong played at All Star levels that year - certainly head and shoulders over Haslem and Beasley


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Yeah that's bull shit. Lebron sat back and let Wade take over when he was hot just as much as he took over the game, and as a result, they were equal MVPs for the HEAT last year, going game by game.


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



e-monk said:


> both Grant and Armstrong played at All Star levels that year - certainly head and shoulders over Haslem and Beasley


Horace averaged 15 and 11 which are very good numbers, but that's borderline All-Star in a thin year, maybe. Meanwhile BJ put up 14.8 and 3.9 assists. Is that REALLY an All-Star level in most years or is that, as I said, a good role player? 

Beasley averaged 13.9 points and 5.4 boards in less than 25 minutes per. Marion 12 and 8.7 in limited time, Jermaine O'Neal 13 and 5...Haslem 10 and 8. I'd say both teams had a smattering of good complimentary guys. Horace had 15 and 11 but Heat had more random-role-player depth.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

literally all star seasons (they were both named to the Eastern Conference team) - and both were head and shoulders over any of that dross you mention , especially Grant when you factor in his defense

and of course and maybe more tellingly, the mid 90s sucked so they faced less competition. in your words: "but that's borderline All-Star *in a thin year*..." which of course is going to have an impact on the old W-L results too


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



e-monk said:


> literally all star seasons (they were both named to the Eastern Conference team) - and both were head and shoulders over any of that dross you mention , especially Grant when you factor in his defense


14.8 points and 3.9 assists is not head and shoulders above 13.9 points and 5.4 boards.



> and of course and maybe more tellingly, the mid 90s sucked so they faced less competition. in your words: "but that's borderline All-Star *in a thin year*..." which of course is going to have an impact on the old W-L results too


Not necessarily. Parity at a position can produce non-outstanding numbers without effecting the talent level of the teams.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> Yeah because MJ never lost a game or a playoff series. He never ever played badly. Give me a break. Rings ALWAYS erase memories.


I know there's no winning with you when it comes to LeBron, but ***** please. Mike had bad games sure but he never looked like a straight sucker when the title was *in his grasp*. Look in that finals thread, how many times did people say "if LeBron got his shit together" the Heat would've finished the series in like 5 games? You would never hear that about MJ. 

Like I said, MJ lost playoff series' but once he got to the point where it was time to put up or shutup ring wise he was flawless, LeBron will not be, and that's it. 

You can mythologize all you want and get the best writers of the 21st century to make it sound pretty but there's just nothing outside of Russellesque dominance that will defend those chokes and get me to say he had a better career than Jordan, because he already has serious blemishes on his record. To neglect that with some jewelry is just disrespecting Mike's resume.



> He's clearly going to have his own unique kind of a career, there's no way of judging right now whether in the end it was better or worse than Jordan's.


There's a very clear way. Jordan never choked, LeBron did. Twice. And I know I sound on the verge of one of those deranged MJ stans on here in those Kobe debates, but it's just the truth.



> I do remember at this stage of Jordan's career his reputation was basically Allen Iverson's. He was viewed as a brilliant ball hogging chucker who couldn't make his teammates better, and would never win the titles that Magic and Bird won, because he didn't play the right way.


Nope, like Jamel said Jordan was already in title winning mode. LeBron isn't a baby anymore, if he doesn't win a title this year it's going to start to look like one of those situations where at best he needs to win one or two before he retires to shut the doubters up, and he'll be fine. But it's no longer going to be about best anything.

Y'all need to relax and realize being top 5 is damn near impossible, much less best ever. LeBron lost his chance for GOAT discussion barring something insane, but he still has a chance to salvage a very strong career around the top tier all-time.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



EGarrett said:


> 14.8 points and 3.9 assists is not head and shoulders above 13.9 points and 5.4 boards.
> 
> Not necessarily. Parity at a position can produce non-outstanding numbers without effecting the talent level of the teams.


They were all-stars, meaning they were close to be both being top 12 players in the conference that season. It's all relative. Obviously 14.8 points and 3.9 assists (which tells you very little about someones impact) stood for more in the east that season.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



EGarrett said:


> 14.8 points and 3.9 assists is not head and shoulders above 13.9 points and 5.4 boards.


it totally can be if you understand how statistics work and stop ignoring other factors like pace, level of competition and differences in efficiency not to mention defense - per game stats are not apples to apples otherwise you're forced to bow down to Wilt and tell Mike he's a clear #2 because 50-25, that's why...



> Not necessarily. Parity at a position can produce non-outstanding numbers without effecting the talent level of the teams.


 first of all here's some straws love watching you pitch on down into the chasm, enjoy the drop...

anyway, you called it thin - you were right on - they were on the all star team because there werent a ton of other quality options because it was a watered down league - tip: when you find yourself equivocating against your own argument it's a good time to punt


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Lebron is closer to Scottie in his style of play as well his basketball talents ...the only thing he is jordan-like is his ability to capture the imagination of fans which scottie dispite all his greatness could never do.

People forget MJ while great would not have won a single title if not for scottie, in fact without scottie on his roster he has never gotten past the 1st round , his ability to dominate games in the 4th quarter in deep playoff series is in part because of pippen ...no one could be expected to expend the amount of energy it takes to be a dominant defender all game and still have the reserve to take over games in the 4th quarter consistently while the other team is geared up to stop you.

also MJ is a champion because he like kobe have a post game , and lebron does not , he doesn't have the jumpshot to have that post game on the elbow that kobe and MJ(and dirk also) have and until he develops a serious post game he will never have their success down the stretch of important games.

its too easy to limit lebron's game by doubling and basically zoning up and James' jumpshot is good but every team will take his shooting vs his driving any day , its good but not good enough to win a finals series.


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Jamel Irief said:


> They were all-stars, meaning they were close to be both being top 12 players in the conference that season. It's all relative. Obviously 14.8 points and 3.9 assists (which tells you very little about someones impact) stood for more in the east that season.


I stand by what I said. I'll also help you out...Beasley was better (14.8 and 6.4 boards), and Jermaine O'Neal played 70 games for the 09-10 Miami Heat, who also had Quentin Richardson, Haslem and a smattering of Rafer Alston. They won 47 games and went out in the 1st Round. Still significantly worse than Pippen's team.



e-monk said:


> it totally can be if you understand how statistics work and stop ignoring other factors like pace, level of competition and differences in efficiency not to mention defense - per game stats are not apples to apples


Really, so what other factors make BJ Armstrong's 14.8 and 3.9 assists such an incredible help over Beasley's basically identical production, to the point that it nullifies a 12-game win difference and an entire round less of playoff advancement? Or, you can look at BJ's numbers in other systems with other teams that played different levels of defense and at different paces. They were never better. In fact, 93-94 was him at his peak.



> otherwise you're forced to bow down to Wilt and tell Mike he's a clear #2 because 50-25, that's why...


I'm not comparing a guy from a 1960's 12-team league to a guy from a 1990's 27-team league. Furthermore, Chamberlain was a statistical outlier, BJ Armstrong and Michael Beasley aren't.



> first of all here's some straws love watching you pitch on down into the chasm, enjoy the drop...


A "strawman argument" refers to attacking a man made of straw. Not throwing straws down a chasm. Don't try metaphors unless you actually have a functional understanding of the phrases.



> anyway, you called it thin - you were right on - they were on the all star team because there werent a ton of other quality options because it was a watered down league - tip: when you find yourself equivocating against your own argument it's a good time to punt


See above: 1. Give me a reason that you disagree with factual information. 2. I'll spot you the next Heat season when Beasley was better and they had 70-games out of Jermaine O'Neal along with Haslem and Quentin Richardson. They were still significantly worse than Scottie's team. So go ahead, give me your actual reasons that run counter to facts to explain why Dwyane Wade is better for starting a team than Scottie. Uber-cool crossoverz and being fresher in your memory don't count.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



EGarrett said:


> A "strawman argument" refers to attacking a man made of straw. Not throwing straws down a chasm. Don't try metaphors unless you actually have a functional understanding of the phrases.


If my memory of several semesters of advanced symbolic logic and rhetoric from way back in college are any measure you are absolutely correct about what constitutes a 'straw man argument'. I am not sure what that has to do with anything though since no one was making reference to that particular fallacy 

now as for someone having a 'functional understanding of phrases'? I think you may be *grasping at straws *, friend, as you fall into the chasm of your own argument

to wit

you said it (or at least implied it unwittingly) 55 wins in a watered down league where BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant are literally All Stars is not as impressive as 55 wins in a more competitive league and may well be closer to Wade's team's record as pertains to quality of wins than you'd like to admit

and btw Wade was the best player on a title winner which Scottie never was


----------



## Pump Bacon

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

Using HOFers, to me James is more like a combination of Magic and Pippen on steroids. James doesn't beat their strengths but his physical tools and ability to get to the paint (at least in the regular season) makes him one hell of a player nonetheless.

LeBron's going to have to earn Finals MVPs in a convincing fashion to give his legacy some serious momentum again


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

really , it was about even

Pippen had the edge at PF and PG , and wade had the edge at center and the other wing spot

the heat had the better bench , the bulls had the better coach , the bulls were a much better team under pippen than the heat were under wade when they were lone stars ...they won more games got further in the playoffs only losing on a crap call to the eventual finalist in 7 games , it could be said they were legit title contenders ...not really the case for the heat who were at best also rans.

o'neal/anthony
beasley/haslem
qrich or marion/dorrell
wade/cook
arroyo/chalmers

vs

wennington/king or longley/cartwright
grant/williams
pippen/kukoc
myers/kerr
BJ/paxson


pip was better. his team was also in a big time transition cartwright and paxson were on their last legs, neithe played 1000 minutes , the only players who were on the team from the previous season who made it to play for the team's next 3 peat were jordan and pippen.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Jamel Irief said:


> Better jog your memory, at this stage in his career Jordan had just come off his second championship and finals MVP. Destroying Clyde Drexler in the finals after people started openly wondering if Clyde was better.


My memory is pretty shit but Jordan won his first title at 28 or 29(not good at match either!)

Lebron's only 26. So I don't know if you thought I meant something different than I did. Or where our misunderstanding is. But it seems like it's more of a misunderstanding, than me being wrong.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Dre said:


> I know there's no winning with you when it comes to LeBron, but ***** please. Mike had bad games sure but he never looked like a straight sucker when the title was *in his grasp*.


He was a lot more mature as a person by that point in his life too. Lebron is still maturing and taking his lumps. You have to learn the hard lessons first, and Lebron's been learning them the last few years. 

Just like Jordan did with the Pistons and Celtics.

By the time Lebron reaches Jordan's age when Jordan won his first title--I would be surprised if he didn't already have a title.

Of course he came into the league before Mike because he was a better talent than Jordan at a younger age--but he didn't come into the league any wiser than Jordan did when Jordan was going to UNC. Both guys were immature as youngsters--you have to grow into it.

At 26 you are more mature then when you were 21, but at 29 you're pretty much a full formed adult. And I think anyone who has lived long enough can recognize that as a truth.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> My memory is pretty shit but Jordan won his first title at 28 or 29(not good at match either!)
> 
> Lebron's only 26. So I don't know if you thought I meant something different than I did. Or where our misunderstanding is. But it seems like it's more of a misunderstanding, than me being wrong.


I think* Jamel *is going by the amount of years played, if so Lebron is at the same stage Jordan was when he won his third.

Edit: Sorry, about that!


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Game3525 said:


> I think Jamal is going by the amount of years played, if so Lebron is at the same stage Jordan was when he won his third.


Correct! Well except the "Jamal" part... Years experience in the league count more for your maturity and experience in your career than years being alive on the planet. Not to mention when Jordan was 19 he was hitting game winning jumpers in NCAA title games.

Just for reference though Jordan was 27 when he won his first title. So LeBron would have to win one this year to match that.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Jamel Irief said:


> Correct! Well except the "Jamal" part... Years experience in the league count more for your maturity and experience in your career than years being alive on the planet. Not to mention when Jordan was 19 he was hitting game winning jumpers in NCAA title games.
> 
> *Just for reference though Jordan was 27 when he won his first title. So LeBron would have to win one this year to match that*.


What if Lebron wins one playing the sidekick role to Wade?


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

let me say this again because it might have been missed: Wade was the man on a title team, which Scottie never was


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



e-monk said:


> let me say this again because it might have been missed: Wade was the man on a title team, which Scottie never was


So? Qhat are you trying to get to, monk?


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

that Wade > Scottie - at least in terms of having the mind set to be 'The Man' - Scottie flamed out big time the one chance he got


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



e-monk said:


> that Wade > Scottie - at least in terms of having the mind set to be 'The Man' - Scottie flamed out big time the one chance he got


I dunno, dude made it to the ECF and WCF without Jordan's bald ass. Did Jordan without Pippen ever make it to an ECF? 

Pippen was definitely underrated, and probably undeseveredly has been saddled with this sidekick soft label, despite doing most of Jordan's dirty work during the dynasty.

It's too bad the Blazers didn't win a title with Pippen, that would have really screwed up a lot of narratives.

Horace Grant was also, it turns out, very very good. And then the second three-peat team was pretty much ridiculous with Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Pippen, Rodman, Steve Kerr, Bison Dele--true rockstar team, especially for how depleted the league was at that time talent wise.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Jamel Irief said:


> Correct! Well except the "Jamal" part... Years experience in the league count more for your maturity and experience in your career than years being alive on the planet.


And you based that on what?
How old was Kobe when he won his first title without Shaq?


----------



## Game3525

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> And you based that on what?
> How old was Kobe when he won his first title without Shaq?


Kobe wasn't really any different a player at 30 then he was at 26-27, he simply had a better supporting cast.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> And you based that on what?
> How old was Kobe when he won his first title without Shaq?


You're comparing apples to oranges. Kobe playing on a team starting kwame, smush and Luke. Jordan playing on a team starting whatley, corzine and woolridge. Not one player in league history is winning titles with the bulls from 84-88 or lakers from 04-07. 

Not the same as having guys like sheed, sabonis, schrempf, Brian grant, dale davis, Steve smith, bonzi wells, Steve Kerr, Dwayne wade, Chris Bosh, antawn Jamison and ilgauskas on your team.

Btw you said Kobe winning without shaq, so now will lebrons rings not count without wade since he's no longer the first option?


----------



## King Joseus

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

No, because it's LeBron....and it's futur.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> I dunno, dude made it to the ECF and WCF without Jordan's bald ass. Did Jordan without Pippen ever make it to an ECF?


could he have done the same with Gerald Wallace? maybe - not sure what this means



> Pippen was definitely underrated, and probably undeseveredly has been saddled with this sidekick soft label, despite doing most of Jordan's dirty work during the dynasty.


the only people under rating him live in these internet forums (he was lionized in the press, named top 50 all time, inducted into the hall of fame - not sure what else you'd expect) and he had a shot and did a decent job but when Phil decided to play the mind games he blew up and walked away from the role at the worst possible time



> It's too bad the Blazers didn't win a title with Pippen, that would have really screwed up a lot of narratives.


dont think so - still wouldnt have been the best player on those teams if he had - same boat: utility dude/support staff (even more so by then)

and speaking of narrative, make sure you dont bring up Houston because that was an ugly little sojourn for his narrative



> Horace Grant was also, it turns out, very very good. And then the second three-peat team was pretty much ridiculous with Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Pippen, Rodman, Steve Kerr, Bison Dele--true rockstar team, especially for how depleted the league was at that time talent wise.


the second team was bullshit - Hollywood was a washed up rehab case taking a back seat and focusing on defense, old rodman was both a side show and a shadow of his early 90s form, Brian Williams (rip) was a decent C but doesnt belong in the conversation of Cs who anchored a titlist and afterall played all of 138 minutes for those 3 teams (he wasnt on the 95-96 or 97-98 teams, made 9 appearances for 138 minutes in 96-97), 

and no one should ever claim steve kerr was a good anything in an internet thread (unless you're talking about stand still knock down shooter) or enjoy being mocked


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



Jamel Irief said:


> Btw you said Kobe winning without shaq, so now will lebrons rings not count without wade since he's no longer the first option?


No, but after Shaq left, Kobe didn't just keep winning titles immedietely. He had to mature and grow with his team. They had to get humiliated by the Celtics in the finals first, before he and the team were ready to take the next step.

I'm sorry it's such a revolutionary idea that players mature, and that most players primes are from the ages of 28-33. And that includes High Schoolers. Look at KG and when he started winning MVPs and then titles in Boston. It was right around that range.

Look at Lebron. He's close to winning a title. But he's not quite there yet. He needs to grow as a player some more. Just like everyone else.

You said that a player's years in the league was more important than how old they were in terms of player growth. And you gave no evidence to back that up. I on the other hand directly refuted it with direct evidence that even high school players still have to get to that 28-33 range to hit their peak.

You are writing a young player off at your peril IMO. That's my perspective on it. We'll see how it goes. Time will tell.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



e-monk said:


> the only people under rating him live in these internet forums (he was lionized in the press, named top 50 all time, inducted into the hall of fame - not sure what else you'd expect) and he had a shot and did a decent job but when Phil decided to play the mind games he blew up and walked away from the role at the worst possible time


A little bit overstated though since they won that game anyways, and the only reason they lost that series was because of a completely bogus foul call.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



e-monk said:


> the second team was bullshit - Hollywood was a washed up rehab case taking a back seat and focusing on defense, old rodman was both a side show and a shadow of his early 90s form, Brian Williams (rip) was a decent C but doesnt belong in the conversation of Cs who anchored a titlist and afterall played all of 138 minutes for those 3 teams (he wasnt on the 95-96 or 97-98 teams, made 9 appearances for 138 minutes in 96-97),
> 
> and no one should ever claim steve kerr was a good anything in an internet thread (unless you're talking about stand still knock down shooter) or enjoy being mocked


Hahaha. Okay dude. They won three straight titles. Steve Kerr is one of the best spot up shooters of all-time, and he won titles with those shots for two different teams. He was literally the best guy that the Bulls could put in that role--in the entire NBA. His role on the team was spot up 3 point shooting. And he was the best. Rodman was a side show, but to call him a shadow of a player is a joke. His dedication to JUST rebounding, and defense made so many things work. They got so many key extra possessions down the stretch because of Rodman's rebounding. And he drove opposing bigs absolutely stark raving mad. Karl Malone was literally more concerned with wrestling him in the middle of the court than he was winning a title. He completely mind ****ed half the league.

And Ron Harper gave the Bulls serious length and perimeter defense--I mean do you know how ridiculous that perimeter is? Jordan/Pippen/Harper? With Rodman at the 4? You can switch every play if you want.

And the league at that point had just expanded with the Raptors and Grizzlies, and because of that was a really watered down league. Most of the old guard who could have challenged Jordan were retiring or stuck on really bad teams. And then one of the better teams in the league, the Sonics, were perpetually choking and underperforming in the playoffs.

That Bulls team was so much better than the rest of the league it wasn't even funny. I remember reading people actually whining about it, because there was literally no shot at parity. Most of the league started the season with NO CHANCE at a title. The Bulls win totals attest to this.

But it was fun. I enjoyed it. I thought for the second three peat, Pippen's growth as a player allowed Jordan to play the more Jedi game. Picking his spots. Working out of the post a lot more. And just in general playing a more cerebral game than he did in the previous three peat where it was more Michael and the Jordainerres. I felt like the Suns series was the apex of Jordan as the dominant dude. The Bulls IMO had no business beating that Suns team, but Jordan was at that stage of his career where he was top dog, and Barkley might have thought he was on that level--but Jordan showed him he wasn't.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> No, but after Shaq left, Kobe didn't just keep winning titles immedietely. He had to mature and grow with his team. They had to get humiliated by the Celtics in the finals first, before he and the team were ready to take the next step.
> 
> I'm sorry it's such a revolutionary idea that players mature, and that most players primes are from the ages of 28-33. And that includes High Schoolers. Look at KG and when he started winning MVPs and then titles in Boston. It was right around that range.
> 
> Look at Lebron. He's close to winning a title. But he's not quite there yet. He needs to grow as a player some more. Just like everyone else.
> 
> You said that a player's years in the league was more important than how old they were in terms of player growth. And you gave no evidence to back that up. I on the other hand directly refuted it with direct evidence that even high school players still have to get to that 28-33 range to hit their peak.
> 
> You are writing a young player off at your peril IMO. That's my perspective on it. We'll see how it goes. Time will tell.


Kobe didn't win titles immedietely because Shaq left and took Payton, Malone and Phil with him. In their place Kobe got Chris Mihm, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. Phil eventually came back, but apparently Kobe was too immature to lead a bunch who were no longer rotation players in the NBA by 2008 except Odom and Sasha. What did Brian Cook ever do again? Chris Mihm? Devean George?

Your "direct evidence" is discrediting 3 championship rings and acting like Kobe's career only starts when he was 26. Kobe was hitting game winners and leading his teams in crucial playoff games at the age of 21. Just because Shaq was there to dominate for 3 quarters doesn't mean Kobe wasn't as crucial to that team as Lebron is to the 2011 Heat. During the 3 peat Kobe outplayed Shaq in 5 out of 12 series.

Let's bring up game 5 of the west semis in 1997. Kobe as a 18 year old was thrown into the overtime after Byron Scott and Shaq fouled out and Robert Horry was ejected. Kobe launched 3 airballs in the final two minutes. Lebron meanwhile as a 27 year old man was deferring to Mario Chalmers in the finals last year.

Do I have to give evidence? I thought I was stating facts. It goes with ANY job, not just basketball. A 28 year old that has been performed well with a company since he graduated high school is going to be more mature in his career than a 42 year old that started with the company last year.

futur logic-
KG couldn't win a title with Joe Smith, Szcerbiak and Nesterovic starting because he wasn't mature.
Kobe couldn't win a title with Smush Parker, Luke Walton and Kwame Brown starting because he wasn't mature.
Shaq carried immature Kobe and a bunch of old players nobody wanted to 3 rings.

KG won with Rondo, Allen, Pierce and Perkins because he matured.
Kobe won with Bynum, Odom, Gasol and Ariza because he matured.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

So it's just a coincidence that their best years that ended with the best results for the team all just happened to happen around the same set of years?


ooookaay.

What was Kobe's excuse for the title they lost in Gasol's first year there? 

Last year for Lebron and Wade and the Heat it ended up a lot like Kobe's first year with Gasol. Both teams got to the finals and fell short and learned some negative things about themselves. The Lakers came back better and won the title. We'll see what the Heat come up with.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*



futuristxen said:


> Hahaha. Okay dude. They won three straight titles.


yes and they beat an ancient Jazz team twice to do it because the entire league was paper thin - level of competition is the point - the Bulls who won the first 3 titles would have kicked their butts



> Steve Kerr is one of the best spot up shooters of all-time, and he won titles with those shots for two different teams. He was literally the best guy that the Bulls could put in that role--in the entire NBA. His role on the team was spot up 3 point shooting. And he was the best.


Jesus Christ - you're talking about Steve Kerr - come on man snap out of it




> Rodman was a side show, but to call him a shadow of a player is a joke.


 not just any 'player' - what I said was that he was a shadow of his own former self - which is just flat out true, Im sorry. the 96 version of Rodman was nowhere near the player he was in 91



> And Ron Harper gave the Bulls serious length and perimeter defense--I mean do you know how ridiculous that perimeter is? Jordan/Pippen/Harper? With Rodman at the 4? You can switch every play if you want.


yes I totally have to agree that post catastrophic knee injury, mid 30s Ron Harper is a player for the ages - let the hagiography begin for all the fan boys who grew up watching basketball in the 90s and evnice little or no historical perspective - first Kerr and now Harper



> And the league at that point had just expanded with the Raptors and Grizzlies, and because of that was a really watered down league. Most of the old guard who could have challenged Jordan were retiring or stuck on really bad teams. And then one of the better teams in the league, the Sonics, were perpetually choking and underperforming in the playoffs.


that's correct (and it was 6 teams in 8 seasons not to mention the 1984 salary cap closing windows at the beginning of the decade as the last of the mega deep super teams of the 80s broke down) and corrollary to that would be the notion that maybe just maybe those Bulls teams had a little bit easier path to the title and maybe just maybe we should take that into account when considering their accomplishments

because while:



> That Bulls team was so much better than the rest of the league it wasn't even funny. I remember reading people actually whining about it, because there was literally no shot at parity. Most of the league started the season with NO CHANCE at a title. The Bulls win totals attest to this.


that's as much a function of how shitty the league was as anything and historically speaking they arent maybe the end all that everyone makes them out to be - as I said I'll take the Ho Grant early 90s version with Mike in his prime over the second three squads any day - they had more depth and beat better teams on the way to their titles


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Charles Barkley Says LeBron James is Closer to Scottie Pippen Than Michael Jordan*

We'll have to agree to disagree, yeah? Clearly we both have different views of basketball history. The conversation will just turn into us comparing fandom. Where even if you win you lose.


----------



## Amir Godbased

*Kobe Bryant*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQmA8puQoXw&feature=g-upl 
This is my first youtube video and I made a Kobe mix. I think its alright. Please watch it and don't hate  Comment and link  Remember its my first so I need to make them better as I make more.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Kobe Bryant*

Can we get this moved to the main NBA Forum?


----------



## Amir Godbased

*Re: Kobe Bryant*

Sure I didn't really know where to put it sorry. I'm new to this forum but I'm learning and I like this form so far though


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Kobe Bryant*

Welcome.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Kobe is the second tier star. Rank the 2nd and 3rd tier stars.*

I started to watch the nba games when Magic and Bird were playing. Read my thread: top tier stars 5 players

Rank the 2nd tier stars 

Duncan, Kobe, Zeke, Rodman, Pippen, Ginobili (total of 25 rings)

Rank the 3rd tier stars - some of them are lucky to win one ring with a lot of talents around them.

Wade, Dirk, Gasol, KG, LeBron, K Malone (total of 6 rings)


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Harden or Kobe?*

So last year a couple posters wanted to argue Harden was better and mainly citied shooting percentages. Now Harden as asked to carry the load as a first option, which is only fair since those posters considered him the best shooting guard in the league. 

Jalen Rose told me Kobe is still better, but just wondering if anyones opinion changed now the field goal attempts are about the same.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

yes, my opinion has changed from "I'm sure that is a stupid thing to say" to "I'm sure that is a stupid thing to say and now I have proof"


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

"You put Harden as the #1 offense......."

Wow. And no ones going to come in and say they were wrong. Not one.


I remember saying his shooting percentages would go down, but nope, they wouldn't they'd stay the same because Harden is super amazing.


****ing Diable.

****ing Luke.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



R-Star said:


> "You put Harden as the #1 offense......."
> 
> Wow. And no ones going to come in and say they were wrong. Not one.
> 
> 
> I remember saying his shooting percentages would go down, but nope, they wouldn't they'd stay the same because Harden is super amazing.
> 
> 
> ****ing Diable.
> 
> ****ing Luke.


Why did you spare Knicks4Life?

BTW just want to say I think Harden is a really good player and I am now convinced he IS a top 3 shooting guard. I wasn't last year. He's better than Manu.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



Jamel Irief said:


> Why did you spare Knicks4Life?


Forgot about him.

Also forgot about MemphisX, but that guy should automatically be included in peoples heads when they think about dumb shit someone said. He's always wrong.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Id take Harden in a heartbeat.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

honey trap, sprung


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Nah, its fine. I hear Harden is super popular with high ranking South Korean officials like the doctor.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Isn't Harden "easily better than Kobe"?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Ask Diable.


----------



## XPeak

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Harden may improve given more time as the number 1 option but it just goes to show what he had going with Oklahoma City. He was a superb third option and their best playmaker.


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Kobe. In fact I also think Kobe has also re-passed Wade, or rather held off decline better than Wade.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



kbdullah said:


> Kobe. In fact I also think Kobe has also re-passed Wade, or rather held off decline better than Wade.


No


----------



## Luke

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



R-Star said:


> "You put Harden as the #1 offense......."
> 
> Wow. And no ones going to come in and say they were wrong. Not one.
> 
> 
> I remember saying his shooting percentages would go down, but nope, they wouldn't they'd stay the same because Harden is super amazing.
> 
> 
> ****ing Diable.
> 
> ****ing Luke.


What?


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



doctordrizzay said:


> No


check again.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Check what? He's certainly outplaying Dwyane right now, but we're not comparing apples to apples.

I, for one, am shocked the Dr. apparently favors Wade over Kobe, two of the biggest banes of his existence.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

So you are agreeing with me?


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



R-Star said:


> Ask Diable.


Well, considering he has strong feelings about this subject, i'll wait for his comments on this thread.

Yeah, right.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Well, considering he has strong feelings about this subject, i'll wait for his comments on this thread.


:drums:


----------



## oolalaa

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Is this a serious question????


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

umm...what? Are we talking about for the next five years or something?

Even then I may lean Kobe


----------



## Luke

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

At least everyone has either come to terms with Kobe or refuses to post in threads like this. Good to see.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Just to play devil's advocate, when you compare apples to apples, Bryant's aFG% and scoring efficiency numbers with the shitty mid aughts Lakers squads look terribly similar to Harden's aFG% and scoring efficiency with this shitty Rockets squad. If Harden had better people than Jeremy ****ing Lin (which, I'm pretty, is Hokkien for "Smush Parker") to pass the ball to his shooting and scoring efficiency would look better.

EDIT: And just to forestall R-Star who will feel compelled to come in here and wave his penis about you will note that there's not a single mention of Wade in the above post and I am in no way defending Mr. Crispy Fried whose scoring efficiency is worse than Harden's despite having the LeBronimator and RuBosh to distract defenses.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Wade's having a terrible season. There's no denying that. As he showed against the Nets, he's not done like many of you believe. The guy is coming off a knee surgery. And a lot of his struggles came when Spoelstra was indefensibly playing Wade alone while LeBron and Bosh rested for stretches.



Hyperion said:


> So you are agreeing with me?


No. Kobe is playing better right now. Wade played better a couple of seasons ago. What does any of this mean? You can't decide a player has surpassed another player based on 20 games, especially when they're playing in vastly different situations. Plus, we're comparing two greats. On any given night one can be better than the other. This "who is better than whom" game is extremely childish.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

I genuinely want to hear the opinions of people that thought Harden was a better player last year. Now that they've seen him as a first option (assuming they've watched a Rocket game or two) I wonder if they felt they were wrong or what.

If I get R-star not to post in this thread for 48 hours will those people post?


----------



## oolalaa

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Although he was close to the mamba in '09, Dwyane Wade has never, ever, ever been as good as Kobe Bryant, in any season, ever. 

And James Harden? The guy has been a full time NBA starter for less than 6 weeks!! Outside of his first 2 games, against pathetic defensive showings, his efficiency has been woeful - 8/24, 5/15, 4/18, 6/17, 3/16. And lets not act like he's scoring 30+ points per game. He's still figuring things out. Kobe is one of the greatest players in NBA history. A proven winner. Comparing him to a 23 year old kid who has started just 23 games in his entire ****ing career is insulting. Kobe, all day, every day, and 24 times on Sunday, and it will likely stay that way until his wheels completely fall off.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



oolalaa said:


> Although he was close to the mamba in '09, Dwyane Wade has never, ever, ever been as good as Kobe Bryant, in any season, ever.


That's just wrong, and most knowledgeable basketball minds will back me up on that. But I'm not getting into this for the umpteenth time. We just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



doctordrizzay said:


> Id take Harden in a heartbeat.


Care to explain why? 

*Goes and grabs popcorn*


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



Jace said:


> Wade's having a terrible season. There's no denying that. As he showed against the Nets, he's not done like many of you believe. The guy is coming off a knee surgery. And a lot of his struggles came when Spoelstra was indefensibly playing Wade alone while LeBron and Bosh rested for stretches.
> 
> 
> 
> No. Kobe is playing better right now. Wade played better a couple of seasons ago. What does any of this mean? You can't decide a player has surpassed another player based on 20 games, especially when they're playing in vastly different situations. Plus, we're comparing two greats. On any given night one can be better than the other. This "who is better than whom" game is extremely childish.


Sounds to me like you agree with me, but don't agree with yourself.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Care to explain why?
> 
> *Goes and grabs popcorn*


Orlando at Lakers. nuff said.

Affalo tore his ass up. wait why am I explaining this...watch him play


----------



## Basel

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Why do people still respond to drizzay? He's proven time and again he's an idiot. Not single person takes him seriously on this site.

I'll go ahead and give myself a warning for insulting him.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



Basel said:


> Why do people still respond to drizzay? He's proven time and again he's an idiot. Not single person takes him seriously on this site.
> 
> *I'll go ahead and give myself a warning for insulting him*.


*Didn't know I was that good *


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



doctordrizzay said:


> Orlando at Lakers. nuff said.
> 
> Affalo tore his ass up. wait why am I explaining this...watch him play


...okay, Houston at Utah. There. I just killed your argument without even trying.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



Basel said:


> Why do people still respond to drizzay? He's proven time and again he's an idiot. Not single person takes him seriously on this site.
> 
> I'll go ahead and give myself a warning for insulting him.


It's always funner when you pretend to take him seriously.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



Hyperion said:


> Sounds to me like you agree with me, but don't agree with yourself.


I suppose your reading comprehension needs recalibrating, then. I don't see how you'd be seeing me agree with you if you're seeming me disagree with myself.

I guess I'll try one more time and put it simpler: They've each outplayed each other for different stretches of their careers. Right now, Kobe is outplaying Wade. That doesn't mean he's the better player. There are a bunch of clearly lesser players outplaying better players at any given time. It doesn't mean anything. Kobe is healthier and playing an alpha role he's very comfortable with. Wade is recuperating from a knee surgery he never expected to be fully recovered from until around the all-star break, while still adjusting to a new role offensively. Ultimately, it's too close to call. They're both ****ing great, and provide different things from the SG position.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



Basel said:


> Why do people still respond to drizzay? He's proven time and again he's an idiot. Not single person takes him seriously on this site.
> 
> I'll go ahead and give myself a warning for insulting him.


It's just like passing over a car wreck in the interstate... I can't stop myself looking... 

DrJizz's posts are THAT kind of ugly...


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



Jamel Irief said:


> I genuinely want to hear the opinions of people that thought Harden was a better player last year. Now that they've seen him as a first option (assuming they've watched a Rocket game or two) I wonder if they felt they were wrong or what.
> 
> If I get R-star not to post in this thread for 48 hours will those people post?


OK, again, I'm going to play devil's advocate on behalf of the dearly departed. Now we're going to compare apples to apples, Bryant's 2005 season, where he went from being Shaq's sidekick to being the alpha and omega (and please spare me the "But Kobe was more important!!!!" complaints because he wasn't more important to the Lakers' opponents, they were still focused on keeping the ball away from Shaq) to Harden's 2013, where he's gone from being the other guy to being the alpha and omega in Houston. 

Now, the caveat here is that Harden is 16 games into his career as an alpha, so we're dealing with an astronomically small sample size, and the counting stats have been equalised to /36 so that we can compare their rates of output.


Harden 22.4 pts 3.8 reb 5 ast 3.8 tov — aFG% .484 TS% .571
Bryant 24.4 pts 5.2 reb 5.3 ast 3.6 tov — aFG% .482 TS% .563

So, yeah, in similar situations they had _very_ similar rates of production. Now, I don't believe for even a second that the Beardo will ever reach Mr. Bean's heights, however, an argument can be made that in similar circumstances Beardo's numbers were very Bryantesque.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



E.H. Munro said:


> OK, again, I'm going to play devil's advocate on behalf of the dearly departed. Now we're going to compare apples to apples, Bryant's 2005 season, where he went from being Shaq's sidekick to being the alpha and omega (and please spare me the "But Kobe was more important!!!!" complaints because he wasn't more important to the Lakers' opponents, they were still focused on keeping the ball away from Shaq) to Harden's 2013, where he's gone from being the other guy to being the alpha and omega in Houston.
> 
> Now, the caveat here is that Harden is 16 games into his career as an alpha, so we're dealing with an astronomically small sample size, and the counting stats have been equalised to /36 so that we can compare their rates of output.
> 
> 
> Harden 22.4 pts 3.8 reb 5 ast 3.8 tov — aFG% .484 TS% .571
> Bryant 24.4 pts 5.2 reb 5.3 ast 3.6 tov — aFG% .482 TS% .563
> 
> So, yeah, in similar situations they had _very_ similar rates of production. Now, I don't believe for even a second that the Beardo will ever reach Mr. Bean's heights, however, an argument can be made that in similar circumstances Beardo's numbers were very Bryantesque.


Not sure what you are doing here. They were comparing 2012 Kobe to 2012 Harden.

Regardless, so the argument is Kobe struggled to adjust to a new role, teammates and coach in 2005 so Harden is and will recover? Because last year those folks were just stating if Harden shot as much as Kobe his numbers would be better.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Wait, were people arguing Harden was better than peak-Kobe or present-day? (This isn't to you EHM, I understand what you're doing, though if they were arguing present-day Kobe, we will never be able to have anything to properly compare with.)

EDIT: Oh, OK. Well, I don't think it's totally outlandish to argue if Harden got 2012 Kobe's shots, with 2012 Kobe's teammates, he couldn't at least equal 2012 Kobe's production. James is a more-disciplined shot taker and better passer. He's obviously not as individually talented as Bryant, however.

It's not an argument that I'd take up, but the point of this thread seems to be "come eat your crow Kobe detractors" and I don't think we necessarily have enough info for that to be obvious in the provided parameters.

If they were arguing that simply amping up James' attempts, regardless of situation, would cause him to equal or exceed Kobe's production, yeah that's a little silly and myopic.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



Jamel Irief said:


> Not sure what you are doing here. They were comparing 2012 Kobe to 2012 Harden.


Well, in 2012 you could make the comparison because both players were playing on loaded teams. In 2013 Harden is now playing with multiple offensive liabilities and Bryant is playing on a team even more stacked with firepower than they had last year. So the situations aren't remotely comparable.



Jamel Irief said:


> Regardless, so the argument is Kobe struggled to adjust to a new role, teammates and coach in 2005 so Harden is and will recover? Because last year those folks were just stating if Harden shot as much as Kobe his numbers would be better.


I didn't agree with that last year, because being the alpha always leads to efficiency drops unless you're playing on a virtual all star team (as Bryant has been for the last 1.2 years). At the time I didn't even know if Harden had alpha in him as he'd always been the other guy and didn't have to deal with it. However, so far the results have been encouraging, now Houston just has to unload Smush Lin & Co. and replace them with NBA players. Alas our GM's only talent is for building average teams as he's better with spreadsheets than basketball (I bet he kills it in rotisserie leagues).


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



Jace said:


> I suppose your reading comprehension needs recalibrating, then. I don't see how you'd be seeing me agree with you if you're seeming me disagree with myself.
> 
> I guess I'll try one more time and put it simpler: They've each outplayed each other for different stretches of their careers. Right now, Kobe is outplaying Wade. That doesn't mean he's the better player. There are a bunch of clearly lesser players outplaying better players at any given time. It doesn't mean anything. Kobe is healthier and playing an alpha role he's very comfortable with. Wade is recuperating from a knee surgery he never expected to be fully recovered from until around the all-star break, while still adjusting to a new role offensively. Ultimately, it's too close to call. They're both ****ing great, and provide different things from the SG position.


Yeah, you still aren't seeing your contradiction. That's ok, I don't feel like fighting over it.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

You haven't made one attempt to point it out. Go ahead. I see what you're making out to be a contradiction, but I think you know better so you're not pointing it out.

I can find 15 game stretches of a player playing better than another player, knowing the former isn't better than the latter. How much do you want to shrink these sample sizes? Want to do it by game? Even a season is a pretty small sample size. You have to consider the totality of their situations.

Getting really tired of repeating the same thing over and over. At first I thought you didn't understand, but now I see you're just avoiding it. I've already gone farther into this than I said I would. C'est tout.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Missed the first half. But the two are matched up right now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

If Harden hits ever shot and Kobe misses every one of his in the second this might tighten back up here.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Ok I'm intrigued by earl Clark now 


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Basel

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Harden is 2/18 tonight. Ouch.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



Jamel Irief said:


> Ok I'm intrigued by earl Clark now


haha...wait what?.......ok.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



R-Star said:


> If Harden hits ever shot and Kobe misses every one of his in the second this might tighten back up here.


Kobe missed 17 shots to Harden's 16. Harden outplayed Kobe tonight. Science wins again!


----------



## Bleeding Gums Murphy

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Kobe at 40 years old would still be better than most of the roster imo.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

That's because you're smart.


----------



## eazy8o5

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

well idk hardens team has the better record, and also harden isn't teamates with the best center in the league


----------



## eazy8o5

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



Bleeding Gums Murphy said:


> Kobe at 40 years old would still be better than most of the roster imo.


haha i doubt that, mj was borderline all star at 40 years old
kobe would get embarrassed at 40, if he ever stayed that long


----------



## Basel

*Kobe: 30,000 Points*

For those who aren't aware, Kobe just scored his 30,000th point of his career, a feat only four others have reached: Kareem, Malone, Jordan, Wilt. Incredible accomplishment. Thought this deserved its own thread here as well as the Lakers forum. Where do you guys think he'll end up all-time? He's close to passing Wilt right now.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

I honestly couldn't care less about any player's career point total. But, congrats to him, I guess.


----------



## Gonzo

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



eazy8o5 said:


> well idk hardens team has the better record, and also harden isn't teamates with the best center in the league


...and?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

the rockets have a much worse team than the lakers but harden is leading them to be a better record than kobe can lead the lakers to so...

lol

can't really compare their numbers when one team has dwight/gasol in the post while the other has literally no post player at all.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



rocketeer said:


> the rockets have a much worse team than the lakers but harden is leading them to be a better record than kobe can lead the lakers to so...
> 
> lol
> 
> can't really compare their numbers when one team has dwight/gasol in the post while the other has literally no post player at all.


Yea. Agreed. 

All of the Rockets success is because of Harden.

All of the Lakers failures are because of Kobe.


Coaching doesn't matter.

Lack of chemistry doesn't matter.

Injuries do not matter.


I'm with rocketeer here. James Harden is the best player in the league.


----------



## Cajon

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Congrats, Kobe!


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Awesome achievement. He'll end up third by the time it's all over.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

James Harden's actual PER numbers are unavailable, because anyone who reads them would










at their sheer awesomeness. And John Hollinger doesn't want to go to prison for mass murder.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Robin Lopez. Immortalized.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Do you think any active player who can have average 30 points in a season?

Kobe, Iverson and T-Mac can!


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



R-Star said:


> Yea. Agreed.


sweet.



> All of the Rockets success is because of Harden.
> 
> All of the Lakers failures are because of Kobe.


obviously.



> Coaching doesn't matter.


kevin mchale is a bad coach and his daughter died during this season. lakers get the edge in coaching.



> Lack of chemistry doesn't matter.


how many guys on the rockets roster were there last year?



> Injuries do not matter.


injuries are for pussies.



> I'm with rocketeer here. James Harden is the best player in the league.


yes.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Kobe will be soon moving into the Top 7 turnovers of all-time as well! Congrats Kobe! 

7. Patrick Ewing* 3537
8. Magic Johnson* 3506
9. Kobe Bryant 3503


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



Ballscientist said:


> Do you think any active player who can have average 30 points in a season?
> 
> Kobe, Iverson and T-Mac can!


LeBron, Wade, and Durant are the only other active players to have done it. So, them. But of the four, I can only see Durant doing it again (RW would have to be somewhere else, though).


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

HUrray Kobe. My key to success: Don't pass.

And he did it against the New Orleans Pelicans too.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Question: how many players in NBA history have career numbers of > 20000pts, > 5000 asts, > 1500 stls, > 1500 triples and > 7000 FTs?


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



doctordrizzay said:


> Kobe will be soon moving into the Top 7 turnovers of all-time as well! Congrats Kobe!
> 
> 7. Patrick Ewing* 3537
> 8. Magic Johnson* 3506
> 9. Kobe Bryant 3503


Damn! Stockton (#2) and Kidd (#3) were/are such lousy handlers! F!


----------



## akashaa01

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Kobe is the best then Harden .


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

I like this new guy.


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Kobe is the man. I haven't liked him for a majority of his career due to a personal beef but he a gamer and I respect the hell out of him. Definitely Top 10 NBA Player ever with a real case for Top 5


----------



## Jace

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

He makes a lot of sense.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

I like the cut of his jib.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Any list that doesn't include Wade is a winner in my book. I think this thread is a case closed.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

would kobe had score 30,000 points in his career in jordans era in the 80's/90's with hand checking is allow? if that's a no then this 30,000 points career is great but it isnt greatly impressive.


----------



## Basel

rayz789 said:


> would kobe had score 30,000 points in his career in jordans era in the 80's/90's with hand checking is allow? if that's a no then this 30,000 points career is great but it isnt greatly impressive.


Yes.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

I see.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

But it would take him another 6 years and he'd shoot 35%.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



rayz789 said:


> would kobe had score 30,000 points in his career in jordans era in the 80's/90's with hand checking is allow? if that's a no then this 30,000 points career is great but it isnt greatly impressive.


Have you seen his jumpshot?


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



rayz789 said:


> would kobe had score 30,000 points in his career in jordans era in the 80's/90's with hand checking is allow? if that's a no then this 30,000 points career is great but it isnt greatly impressive.


Probably. He would maybe be a season behind though. 

Regardless, pretty damn cool achievement. I wonder what Jordan would have had he not played hookie those two years and retired briefly after 98.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

^And came out after HS.


----------



## XPeak

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

I think the thread that I put up in here some 2-3 years ago regarding Kobe as possibly the greatest scorer in history so far is legitimate. 

History buffs enlighten us, any 34 year old players that at least made it to top 3 in scoring in a season?


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



XPeak said:


> I think the thread that I put up in here some 2-3 years ago regarding Kobe as possibly the greatest scorer in history so far is legitimate.
> 
> History buffs enlighten us, any 34 year old players that at least made it to top 3 in scoring in a season?


Yes. In 1998 a player named Jordan lead the league at 34. In third place was another 34 year old named Malone.


----------



## 36 Karat

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

I feel this was expected. Great accomplishment nonetheless. He'll pass Michael, only to be passed by LeBron.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



Hyperion said:


> Any list that doesn't include Wade is a winner in my book. I think this thread is a case closed.


How can you say that‽‽‽ Wade is the ultimate warrior! He's the Black Knight of the NBA. Except he just doesn't sit around after his limbs are cut off, he just gets back up keeps going! He's hardcore, man!


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

True story EH. Wade is always super duper injured. It just only comes out when he has a terrible game and is shut down. That's the only time he shares with everyone that hes been nursing an injury that is way worse than any NBA player has ever faced before, but hes going to soldier on, because hes a warrior.


He's like Iverson was, except he's a pussy and half his injuries are fake excuses.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

How does a comparison thread with such an obvious answer have this many responses...


----------



## Jace

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

R-Star, in fairness, the guy has said all summer and through training camp that he won't be all the way back from his knee surgery until February or March. The little foot injuries and shit are annoying, but knee surgery is pretty legit.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*



Jace said:


> R-Star, in fairness, the guy has said all summer and through training camp that he won't be all the way back from his knee surgery until February or March. The little foot injuries and shit are annoying, but knee surgery is pretty legit.


Its Wade man. Why didn't they just rest him for longer then? He's always complaining about some sort of crazy injury. And maybe its just me, but I've never heard a doctor say "your knee isn't 100% yet, you need to play about 4 months of professional basketball and then it should be back to full strength."


Maybe I'm wrong. But we've all seen this song and dance from him before. At this point I just attribute it to him pre planning excuses for his post season ghost show.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



XPeak said:


> I think the thread that I put up in here some 2-3 years ago regarding Kobe as possibly the greatest scorer in history so far is legitimate.
> 
> History buffs enlighten us, any 34 year old players that at least made it to top 3 in scoring in a season?


:50ha:


----------



## Jace

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

Obviously he's cleared to play, if I remember correctly they were probably saying something about strength in the quad and all that stuff. He probably could've sat out longer, but he knows everyone thinks he's always hurt, and probably didn't want to start the season in a suit. I don't know, I'm just relaying what the team has been saying about him since summertime.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

No worries, I'm not looking to argue over it. Anything I would say is just my personal opinion. I haven't followed the injury so its not like I have any facts to back up what I'm saying. I just find him to be "that guy" who always uses injuries as an excuse when he has an off night or two. Then all the sudden he bounces back and plays a vintage Wade game and dominates on both ends of the floor, and then he has another off game or two and its "Yep, my knee is hardly hanging together. Its a credit to my toughness that I'm even playing."


----------



## Jace

*Re: Harden or Kobe?*

I feel ya. I think he is pretty legitimately banged up a lot of the time, but he's good enough to play around it when he wants to play smart. Lately he hasn't gone that direction, though. It's like he's content to embarrass himself as long he's giving himself a chance to make homerun plays, instead of hitting singles and doubles and looking like something closer to a role player. I'd rather he look like a productive role player than the sad shell of a superstar trying to do things he can't on that night.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



36 Karat said:


> I feel this was expected. Great accomplishment nonetheless. He'll pass Michael, only to be passed by LeBron.


And Durant.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Edit


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



Marcus13 said:


> Kobe is the man. I haven't liked him for a majority of his career due to a personal beef but he a gamer and I respect the hell out of him. Definitely Top 10 NBA Player ever with a real case for Top 5


Lol


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Wilt
Kareem
Jordan
Magic
Bird

Five off the top of my head I can't put him ahead of.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



Marcus13 said:


> Kobe is the man. I haven't liked him for a majority of his career due to a *personal beef* but he a gamer and I respect the hell out of him. Definitely Top 10 NBA Player ever with a real case for Top 5


Ok. What did Kobe do to *YOU *that made you dislike him so much that you begrudgingly will put him in the stratosphere of Russell, Kareem, Magic, Jordan, Bird, Wilt, Robertson, Shaq, Hakeem, Malone, West and Barkley?


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

He probably means he personally doesn't like him. I see what you mean by the phrasing, but I'm sure a lot of people aren't fond of him for past transgressions and his on court and media demeanor.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



Jace said:


> Wilt
> Kareem
> Jordan
> Magic
> Bird
> 
> Five off the top of my head I can't put him ahead of.


I wouldn't say that Kobe has had a better career than Russell but I do think that Bird is a tossup.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



Hyperion said:


> Ok. What did Kobe do to *YOU *that made you dislike him so much that you begrudgingly will put him in the stratosphere of Russell, Kareem, Magic, Jordan, Bird, Wilt, Robertson, Shaq, Hakeem, Malone, West and Barkley?


he too said 'low hole only'


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



Jace said:


> Wilt
> Kareem
> Jordan
> Magic
> Bird
> 
> Five off the top of my head I can't put him ahead of.


me too and Bird is the only one he can come close to and that's only because of Bird's back problems - a couple more healthy seasons and it's non-negotiable


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



Luke said:


> I wouldn't say that Kobe has had a better career than Russell but I do think that Bird is a tossup.


I have trouble with Russell because of the competition; but then again, you can't fault him for that. Looking at his stats, his FG% could've been a little higher for a big man regularly playing against inferior competition. Can't argue against 11 championships, but again: competition. I generally leave him out of my top 5's because I don't know enough to be sure that he truly belongs there as a player, as much respect as I have for what he did.

As far as Bird vs. Kobe, I just don't see how the case could be made for Kobe over Bird. Kobe does have the edge in rings, and I won't fault him for Shaq being the MVP for the first 3 due to Bird having great teammates as well, but when looking at the stats I lean strongly to Bird. I'm not sure it's fair to give Kobe the edge for having played more seasons, with Bird starting his NBA career way later. The back stuff sucks, but ending your career at 35 is nothing to be ashamed of. Who knows how much Kobe would actually have had left in him if it weren't for modern German engineering.

Kobe is aesthetically as skilled/talented/fundamentally-impressive a scorer as the league has ever seen, but I think efficiency and team concept are extremely important when ordering the top of the all-time list. He sort of took the "fun" parts of Jordan's game and ran with them. People want to debate Jordan vs. Kobe, but to me what made Michael so impressive was that he was able to score at such a ridiculous clip, as a perimeter player, while shooting over 50%. In terms of assists, the difference in assist percentage is pretty negligible, though I'd argue MJ played with the better playmaker in Pippen than what Kobe had with Odom/Fisher.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Russell had more competition than Shaq had at his individual position


----------



## mysterio

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



e-monk said:


> Russell had more competition than Shaq had at his individual position


Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Duncan, Mutombo, Mourning, Willis, Divac weren't enough?


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



mysterio said:


> Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Duncan, Mutombo, Mourning, Willis, Divac weren't enough?


not in a 30 team league also populated by the likes of greg ostertag, eric montross and olden polynice (and I see you there trying to squeeze kevin willis into the conversation, sly devil, but no)

when russell was playing in a 8 team league facing Wilt and Bellamy and Thurmond and Reed - that's a hall of famer almost every night 

now in the first half of russell's career it's different but by the early to mid 60s he was dealing with a tough match-up almost nightly with very few cherokee parks or luc longley or ervin johnson or Dean Garret or Bryant Reeves or Lorenzen Wright or benoit benjamin or.... in other words, nights off in between

think of it this way Shaq was in orlando he had hakeem twice the whole season, ditto robinson, ditto er- Vlade? Russell had Wilt 10 times a season, ditto bellamy - that's 20 tough games right out the gate and even allowing vlade and willis on your list all you've named is 20 tough games


----------



## Dee-Zy

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



e-monk said:


> not in a 30 team league also populated by the likes of greg ostertag, eric montross and olden polynice (and I see you there trying to squeeze kevin willis into the conversation, sly devil, but no)
> 
> when russell was playing in a 8 team league facing Wilt and Bellamy and Thurmond and Reed - that's a hall of famer almost every night
> 
> now in the first half of russell's career it's different but by the early to mid 60s he was dealing with a tough match-up almost nightly with very few cherokee parks or luc longley or ervin johnson or Dean Garret or Bryant Reeves or Lorenzen Wright or benoit benjamin or.... in other words, nights off in between
> 
> think of it this way Shaq was in orlando he had hakeem twice the whole season, ditto robinson, ditto er- Vlade? Russell had Wilt 10 times a season, ditto bellamy - that's 20 tough games right out the gate and even allowing vlade and willis on your list all you've named is 22 tough games


This.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



Jace said:


> I have trouble with Russell because of the competition; but then again, you can't fault him for that. Looking at his stats, his FG% could've been a little higher for a big man regularly playing against inferior competition. Can't argue against 11 championships, but again: competition. I generally leave him out of my top 5's because I don't know enough to be sure that he truly belongs there as a player, as much respect as I have for what he did.
> 
> As far as Bird vs. Kobe, I just don't see how the case could be made for Kobe over Bird. Kobe does have the edge in rings, and I won't fault him for Shaq being the MVP for the first 3 due to Bird having great teammates as well, but when looking at the stats I lean strongly to Bird. I'm not sure it's fair to give Kobe the edge for having played more seasons, with Bird starting his NBA career way later. The back stuff sucks, but ending your career at 35 is nothing to be ashamed of. Who knows how much Kobe would actually have had left in him if it weren't for modern German engineering.
> 
> Kobe is aesthetically as skilled/talented/fundamentally-impressive a scorer as the league has ever seen, but I think efficiency and team concept are extremely important when ordering the top of the all-time list. He sort of took the "fun" parts of Jordan's game and ran with them. People want to debate Jordan vs. Kobe, but to me what made Michael so impressive was that he was able to score at such a ridiculous clip, as a perimeter player, while shooting over 50%. In terms of assists, the difference in assist percentage is pretty negligible, though I'd argue MJ played with the better playmaker in Pippen than what Kobe had with Odom/Fisher.


We can really only judge these guys against their peers and what Russell did against his peers - 11 championships in 13 years, 5 MVPs, generally regarded as the best defensive player ever - is pretty astounding. I typically don't like talking about players from that era because a.) I was not alive, and b.) the game is very different. But all that said, I can't leave Russ out of the top five.

As for Kobe/Bird, yeah, Kobe played with Shaq, but no 21-23 year old in the history of basketball would have been the first option on those teams. And even in spite of playing with the MDE he still has the same amount of finals MVPs as Bird does.

The stats argument doesn't really work here either.For all the nerds out there, Kobe/Bird have identical PERs despite Kobe coming into the league at 17 and off of the bench for two years. Compare them year by year and it's Bryant comfortably. Bird's stats might look prettier on a stat sheet, but that's due to inflation of his era. 24/10/6 in 1984 isn't the same as 24/10/6 today, the game was just played at a much faster pace.

I do want to reiterate that I do not think that Kobe is clearly better than Larry, merely that they are definitely comparable.

I don't agree with your analysis of Kobe/Jordan. I don't think Kobe copied the "pretty" facets of Jordan's game, it's pretty clear that he copied pretty much anything. Kobe is just an inferior athlete, plays against tougher perimeter defenders, and is more prone to hero ball. And it's not like the gap in their efficiency is staggering or anything, Jordan was obviously more efficient and better than Kobe, but his career TS% is less than one and a half points higher than Kobe's. That's certainly substantial, but not a staggering number by any means.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



Luke said:


> We can really only judge these guys against their peers and what Russell did against his peers - 11 championships in 13 years, 5 MVPs, generally regarded as the best defensive player ever - is pretty astounding. I typically don't like talking about players from that era because a.) I was not alive, and b.) the game is very different. But all that said, I can't leave Russ out of the top five.
> *
> As for Kobe/Bird, yeah, Kobe played with Shaq, but no 21-23 year old in the history of basketball would have been the first option on those teams.* And even in spite of playing with the MDE he still has the same amount of finals MVPs as Bird does.
> 
> The stats argument doesn't really work here either.For all the nerds out there, Kobe/Bird have identical PERs despite Kobe coming into the league at 17 and off of the bench for two years. Compare them year by year and it's Bryant comfortably. Bird's stats might look prettier on a stat sheet, but that's due to inflation of his era. 24/10/6 in 1984 isn't the same as 24/10/6 today, the game was just played at a much faster pace.
> 
> I do want to reiterate that I do not think that Kobe is clearly better than Larry, merely that they are definitely comparable.
> 
> I don't agree with your analysis of Kobe/Jordan. I don't think Kobe copied the "pretty" facets of Jordan's game, it's pretty clear that he copied pretty much anything. Kobe is just an inferior athlete, plays against tougher perimeter defenders, and is more prone to hero ball. And it's not like the gap in their efficiency is staggering or anything, Jordan was obviously more efficient and better than Kobe, but his career TS% is less than one and a half points higher than Kobe's. That's certainly substantial, but not a staggering number by any means.


You don't think a 23 year old Lebron James would've been a first option on that team?


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Absolutely not.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

vis the shaq question - shaq needed a closer just as much as russell needed sam jones or kareem needed oscar or magic - shaq wasnt going to win anything on his own because bigs (especially those who cant shoot ftas and have their coaches yank them in the final minutes) cant win tight games - kobe was every bit as important to those title teams as shaq (ask the Spurs)

and in light of this vis 23 year old lebron, no he's only learned how to close in the last couple years


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



Luke said:


> I don't agree with your analysis of Kobe/Jordan. I don't think Kobe copied the "pretty" facets of Jordan's game, it's pretty clear that he copied pretty much anything. Kobe is just an inferior athlete, plays against tougher perimeter defenders, and is more prone to hero ball. And it's not like the gap in their efficiency is staggering or anything, Jordan was obviously more efficient and better than Kobe, but his career TS% is less than one and a half points higher than Kobe's. That's certainly substantial, but not a staggering number by any means.


Might've misspoken a little there. Kobe definitely also emulated his D, but I don't love TS% for these comparisons because it aids the better 3-point/FT-shooter, just a personal preference. Kobe plays against tougher perimeter defenses? I think there were more players committed to playing tough D in Jordan's day (I'm willing to hear out your argument on this one, I just don't see it right now), and again, handchecking. I just think he's much more of an aesthetic facsimile of Jordan than a substantive one, contrary to what many casual fans believe.

RE: Bird/Kobe stat comparison, you're right, at least in terms of assists (assist %), where Bird doesn't have a huge lead over Kobe. Rebound-wise he does (rebound rate), but that's not an apples-apples comparison because of size/position differences. Bird's top 3 offensive rating seasons were 121, 121, and 119. Kobe's top 3 were all 115. (Bird edges Kobe 115-112 over their careers)

I'm not sure it's Kobe "comfortably" looking year-to-year. FG% is pretty important, and looking at the raw per 36 numbers, Bryant's edge in ppg isn't all that signifcant. I will change my stance to it being more comparable than I originally believed, based mostly on the assists being closer than I thought once pace-adjusted, though again, not apples-apples with Bird being a forward.


----------



## Dee-Zy

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

I'm curious to hear the argument of Magic vs Kobe actually, especially since they were both Lakers AND played with a top 10, top 5 big man.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Why anyone would put more stock into FG% than TS% is beyond me, but I digress.

And defense as a whole may have been better when Mike played, and there was certainly more dominant big men that could play both ways, but there are clearly more athletic 6'5-6'8 guys being thrown at Kobe than there ever were at MJ. 

I should probably just put Jordan >> Kobe at the end of every post to avoid confusion.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



Dee-Zy said:


> I'm curious to hear the argument of Magic vs Kobe actually, especially since they were both Lakers AND played with a top 10, top 5 big man.


Magic was better than Larry and Kobe.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*



Luke said:


> Why anyone would put more stock into FG% than TS% is beyond me, but I digress.
> 
> And defense as a whole may have been better when Mike played, and there was certainly more dominant big men that could play both ways, but there are clearly more athletic 6'5-6'8 guys being thrown at Kobe than there ever were at MJ.
> 
> I should probably just put Jordan >> Kobe at the end of every post to avoid confusion.


I admit my TS% views are a bit odd, and damn-near untenable, but I'm personally not overly impressed with the ability to hit 3's and FT's at a higher clip to make up for an overall worse shot-selection (evinced by overall FG%). I'd prefer eFG%, at best (no FT's).


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

I just don't get how a.) helping space the floor for your teammates or b.) shooting a *free throw* automatically means that you have a worse shot selection. Agree to not understand each other I suppose.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

No, no, no. You misunderstood that. I'm saying having a lower FG% is an indicator of worse shot selection. I just don't like the fact that you can make up for that by shooting more 3's (not even necessarily at a higher clip) or being a better FT shooter.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Because if you're taking three pointers on a regular basis then you're obviously taking more difficult shots (in theory) than someone playing close to the basket. Not only that, if you're an adequate shooter than you're automatically making it easier for your teammates to hit those easy shots because the defense can't collapse on them as easily. This hurts a player's FG% but it isn't an indicator of a player having a "worse" shot selection, but a necessary one.

Not wanting to reward a player for hitting free throws makes absolutely no sense. I can almost see the rational with the 3's, but this just makes no sense.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

They're taking more difficult shots, but does that make the player better? Again, just personal preference. It's obviously affected by the stars I've rooted for over my life (Jordan/Wade/LeBron), but I like to see great players work to get better looks, and think it, along with good court vision and an unselfish approach, also helps out teammates. I think the ability and tenacity to consistently create better looks is a plus. Guys like Kyle Korver and Steve Novak can become two of the best shooters in the game, but it takes a higher level of talent to be able to make to create high-% looks regularly.

Regarding FT's, I just don't like it being factored into a discussion on the greatest players. It has nothing to do with the 5-on-5 concept that is the heart of basketball, to me. Having a guy be able to hit 90% of his FT's is great, but it's low on my list of player evaluation. It's nice, but no sort of difference-maker for me.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

If Shaq could have hit 75% of his free throws he probably would have been considered the best player of all time.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

True, but that's because he was so bad at them. That's kind of looking at an extreme example, kind of aberrational.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

I don't like TS% because it really doesn't reflect the actual impact your shot selection has on the team. TS% is inflated on teams where the highest scorer is also the FT shooter on the team. BJ Armstrong was the go to FT shooter on the Bulls for a while, not Jordan. On the Lakers, it's always been Kobe because he demanded it. So he gets a few free shots there. Those little 3 second violations, intentional fouls at the end of close games, and even the other run of the mill technical fouls all went to Kobe. 

Then on top of that you have 3pt shots which are worth 3/10 vs 5/10. Shooting 3/10 means that the defense doesn't have to collapse and defend 7/10, making them more rested and taking your teammates out of the game. 

This is why FG% is a great indicator of quality on offense. It directly shows whether your shot selection is better than passing the ball. No doubt it's impressive when a player can shoot 20+ shots and make close to 40-45% of them, but if he were to pass up one shot to each teammate, would they score at a higher percentage, thus putting more pressure on the defense and improving the team's likelihood of winning? I think yes.


----------



## Dee-Zy

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

I still would like to hear the arguments of Magic better than Kobe. Just saying that he was better doesn't say much.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

better what? scorer? obviously not - leader? teammate? rebounder? passer? - let's put it this way Magic had a hell of a lot better chance to dominate a game with his scoring (ask the '79 76ers) than Kobe did with his facilitating and orchestration


----------



## Steez

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Been a long time since ive posted, but wanted to get into this memorial thread.

Congratulations Mamba.


----------



## Busychild

*Re: Kobe: 30,000 Points*

Much respect to Bryant. I hope he's healthy for the rest of his career.


----------



## Knick Killer

*If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

Personally, I think it will hurt it big time. I realize he's not in the prime of his career but I can't think of any other legends who had STACKED teams like this that have completely failed. What do you guys think?


----------



## TucsonClip

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

I think its safe to say its not Kobe's fault for the rest of his team sucking and playing terrible defense, despite him having his best season since '06-'07.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

Not really. Kobe has been in the league for a long time. He is a proven commodity. If after all this time you are going to argue his legacy has significantly changed due to one season, you aren't evaluating things correctly.

And the Lakers are stacked if you only look at the name on the jersey, but Kobe, Nash, and Pau are all past their primes. Kind of like the Rockets in the late 90's.


----------



## Basel

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

I think Kobe's legacy is pretty much set in stone. I don't see anything that can take away from it at this point - his legacy can only be added to if he wins rings. What he's doing right now at his age is incredible. He's not at fault for the Lakers' lack of success this season, despite people naturally wanting to blame him because he's the leader of the team.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

Considering 98% of HOFers either never make it to year 17 or are severely washed up, than I say no.

Would it have helped his legacy more if he retired after 2010?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

Honestly this will be more a black mark against Howard. I do think that Bryant could have handled the situation a little better when the deal was made (I have a suspicion that he may have had a history with Howard similar to Garnett's). But Bryant always leaves it out on the court. I don't think that anyone can say that about Howard for the last year and a half.


----------



## Headliner

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

This will be on Howard for not living up to the Laker reputation of big men in the past. It will be a disappointment on Kobe's career that a team with this much talent on paper couldn't get it done, but it won't hurt his legacy.


----------



## JBKB

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

Well, most fans measure success by championship rings, which is why so much pressure and ridicule from fans had been targeted towards Lebron James before he zipped their lips by winning one of the rings that he confidently delcared to receive.

Kobe has 5 rings, so he has pleased the fans in that department. Also, even if the Lakers don't make the playoffs, Kobe will have benefitted himself in some way (stat-padding, stat-inflation, etc). Therefore, Kobe will retire with stellar accomplishments regardless of his winning or losing. 

Come on, were talking about Kobe here. Even when defenses QUADRUPLE-TEAMED him, Kobe's offense still prevailed!


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



JBKB said:


> Well, most fans measure success by championship rings, which is why so much pressure and ridicule from fans had been targeted towards Lebron James before he zipped their lips by winning one of the rings that he confidently delcared to receive.
> 
> Kobe has 5 rings, so he has pleased the fans in that department. Also, even if the Lakers don't make the playoffs, Kobe will have benefitted himself in some way (stat-padding, stat-inflation, etc). Therefore, Kobe will retire with stellar accomplishments regardless of his winning or losing.
> 
> Come on, were talking about Kobe here. Even when defenses QUADRUPLE-TEAMED him, Kobe's offense still prevailed!


I understand you're new and all, but your biased agenda towards Kobe is already starting to get old. I mean really old. Now granted you aren't worse than Drizzay, at least you acknowledge his talents, but your claims of Kobe being a stat hog and that being all he cares about is an idiotic claim. 

If this were 2005-2007, then you would have every right to call him a ball hog, I still stand by my word that he was a ball hog those years. HOWEVER, he did it because he wanted to win, not because he wanted impressive stats, but because he wanted to win. 

Was Kobe happy at the end of those years? Absolutely not. He wanted to get traded at one point because he was unhappy with his teams inability to get anywhere in the playoffs. He was convinced to stick around, but that alone proves he cares a hell of a lot more about winning than he does stats.

So please, enough with your biased hate towards Kobe already.


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

Definitely think the biggest reputation hit will be to Dwight Howard. To follow up the Indecision with no postseason begs criticism.


----------



## JBKB

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



XxIrvingxX said:


> I understand you're new and all, but your biased agenda towards Kobe is already starting to get old. I mean really old. Now granted you aren't worse than Drizzay, at least you acknowledge his talents, but your claims of Kobe being a stat hog and that being all he cares about is an idiotic claim.
> 
> If this were 2005-2007, then you would have every right to call him a ball hog, I still stand by my word that he was a ball hog those years. HOWEVER, he did it because he wanted to win, not because he wanted impressive stats, but because he wanted to win.
> 
> Was Kobe happy at the end of those years? Absolutely not. He wanted to get traded at one point because he was unhappy with his teams inability to get anywhere in the playoffs. He was convinced to stick around, but that alone proves he cares a hell of a lot more about winning than he does stats.
> 
> So please, enough with your biased hate towards Kobe already.


Ouch, I was never trying to get off on the wrong foot. : ) 

To be honest, I have the utmost respect for Kobe's skill. He is an amazing player, and one of my favorite players to watch. I have no problem with the Lakers, and I am affected in no way by their lack of success. I have no biases towards Kobe Bryant in any way. He is among the greatest I have ever seen play the game. 

However, to say Kobe isn't a stat-padder is an outright lie. Kobe has ball-hogged his entire career. He has taken on triple-teams instead of passing to the two open teammates just to prove his superiority, and often succeeded too. Lets go back to the 2011 All-Star game when Kobe Bryant ball-hogged his way to All-Star MVP. 

When Kobe's career is over, I will always see him as one of the greatest, most impressive players to ever play the game. However, I will not honor the vast majority of his achievements because they were earned immorally, and unfairly. 

Hubie Brown said it best, "Kevin Durant or Lebron James could easily be the league's highest scorer if they were more selfish." 

Kobe is selfish, and that explains many of his accomplishments. 

Kobe isn't the only stat-padder. Kevin Love is a perfect example too. When he went on his excessive rebounding frenzy, I will never forget what a Timberwolves fan who followed every single Wolves game told me. According to him, he witnessed multiple times in which Love's teammates were in reach to grab a rebound, but instead moved out the way so Kevin Love can grab the rebound. That's immoral, and a perfect example of stat-inflation if you ask me. : ) 

I am probably the least biased person.  Oh, and I apologize about so many smiley faces. I'll try to cut back using them.


----------



## Jace

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

Howard could get a pass for his back surgery. Those aren't easy to come back from, especially a big man.

Wouldn't be a blemish on his legacy because in the end his stats will be very good, especially for his age. There aren't stats to represent the poor effort he's given defensively, which has contributed to their struggles. He's too old and done too much for it have any real effect either way.

I think the coaches and perhaps Pau will shoulder most of the blame.


----------



## Ron

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

Kobe is one of only five players in the history of the NBA to score over 30,000 points. He's got third all-time scoring in the history of the league wrapped up unless he suffers a career-ending injury. He has five championship rings. He has two scoring titles. He has two Finals MVP awards, an NBA season MVP award and four All-Star game MVP awards. He once scored 81 points in a single game, the second most in the history of the league. And he is clearly going to be a first ballot HOFer.

His legacy is already cemented in stone.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

He was always shit, that this season proves that.


----------



## Ron

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



doctordrizzay said:


> He was always shit, that this season proves that.


----------



## Jace

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

doctordrizzay, who had a better career, Kobe Bryant or Corey Maggette?


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



doctordrizzay said:


> He was always shit, that this season proves that.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

doctor drizzay and JBKB must be the same person or both ate paint chips as children.


----------



## Jace

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

The Doc hogged most of them if that's the case.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



doctordrizzay said:


> He was always shit, that this season proves that.


He was shit the year he won MVP? Right...


----------



## Mattsanity

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

prime kobe's 2008 finals loss hurt him. he's still a top 10 player ever in my books.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

*** Board policy should be addressed in PMs to a staff member. ***


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

*** Board policy should be addressed in PMs to a staff member. ***


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

*** Board policy should be addressed in PMs to a staff member. ***


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

I just like using that gif

:jigga:


----------



## Ron

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

*** Board policy should be addressed in PMs to a staff member. ***


----------



## Laker Freak

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



Mattsanity said:


> prime kobe's 2008 finals loss hurt him. he's still a top 10 player ever in my books.


That team started Derek Fisher and Vladimir Radmanovic and the top 2 guys off the bench were Jordan Farmar and Sasha Vujacic. The Celtics were definitely the better team that season. Now if you want to talk about 2004 you might have an argument there.


----------



## RiOtChEsS

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

not a chance, Kobe is doing all he can this year...


----------



## Jace

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

What the hell is going on in this place right now?


----------



## Jace

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



XxIrvingxX said:


> He was shit the year he won MVP? Right...


You're taking him seriously? Was he "shit" the surrounding years?


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

Not his legacy, no. I do believe historically this may be the season people look back and say say "Ok, he was finally past his prime." even tho he is statistically still putting up amazing numbers


----------



## Ben

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

The only thing his legacy can do is stay the same or grow. Nothing he does in his 17th year onwards can affect it now.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

Agreed with the guys who said no. If they don't make the playoffs that doesn't tarnish what hes done or where he ranks now.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

if they dont make the playoffs this season will just be looked at as some strange abberation and/or cosmic karmic strangulation and later it will be used in arguments having to do with building super teams or the impact of too many stars on team chemistry or some such


----------



## Ronny

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

It won't hurt Kobe at all to be honest . Kobe is a tried and tested player , a legend and a hall of famer . The Lakers have done it before , and if they can't bring it this time around , then it's the damned team chemistry to blame .


----------



## R-Star

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



Ronny said:


> It won't hurt Kobe at all to be honest . Kobe is a tried and tested player , a legend and a hall of famer . The Lakers have done it before , and if they can't bring it this time around , then it's the damned team chemistry to blame .


Yep. Not really something where people will look back and say "They lost because of Kobe." or "I would argue Kobe over xxx player, but he didn't make the playoffs in 2013."


----------



## Luke

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

No Kobe's legacy is essentially set in stone and the only changes to that will happen if something positive happens. It's hard to hold anything against a 17 year vet. Dwight, on the other hand, will probably catch a lot of flack. Then again I think it's moot because I remain optimistic that the Lakers will make the playoffs.


----------



## Mattsanity

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

well I'm going to create a tangent and say that he'll need his 6th ring for kobe stans to compare him to jordan. He may be old now but jordan was also playing at a high level at 34. bryant needs another ring so there's no reason why a team with nash and howard shouldn't go deep in the playoffs.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



Mattsanity said:


> well I'm going to create a tangent and say that he'll need his 6th ring for kobe stans to compare him to jordan. He may be old now but jordan was also playing at a high level at 34. bryant needs another ring so there's no reason why a team with nash and howard shouldn't go deep in the playoffs.


As a Kobe fan, Michael is the better all around player, but Kobe has nothing to prove. 

As I am sure you know rings are a team accomplishment. Jordan stans wouldn't admit Kobe was better even if he had 7 rings so no point in using rings.

I mean Wilt was a better overall player than Jordan and Oscar Robertson was a better overall player than Lebron but no one talks about rings to Wilt or the big O because it's a team stat.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



Mattsanity said:


> well I'm going to create a tangent and say that he'll need his 6th ring for kobe stans to compare him to jordan. He may be old now but jordan was also playing at a high level at 34. bryant needs another ring so there's no reason why a team with nash and howard shouldn't go deep in the playoffs.


I'd never argue Kobe over Jordan, but using age isn't relative. Kobe came straight out of highschool. Hes got miles on him like a 36-37 year old would if you compare him to guys who went to college.


----------



## Mattsanity

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



The Big Dipper said:


> As a Kobe fan, Michael is the better all around player, but Kobe has nothing to prove.
> 
> As I am sure you know rings are a team accomplishment. Jordan stans wouldn't admit Kobe was better even if he had 7 rings so no point in using rings.
> 
> I mean Wilt was a better overall player than Jordan and Oscar Robertson was a better overall player than Lebron but no one talks about rings to Wilt or the big O because it's a team stat.



the comparison will never go away though. Even Kobe said he wants his 6th ring. 




R-Star said:


> I'd never argue Kobe over Jordan, but using age isn't relative. Kobe came straight out of highschool. Hes got miles on him like a 36-37 year old would if you compare him to guys who went to college.



so you're implying that Kobe > Jordan because Jordan wasn't playing when he was 36 and 37. j/k :grinning:


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



Mattsanity said:


> the comparison will never go away though. Even Kobe said he wants his 6th ring.


Yeah they won't I mean it's obvious jordan was an influence. 

Yeah Kobe has such a competitive attitude I bet he wants to one up Jordan on rings but in my eyes he wasn't as great a player as Jordan but being a close 2nd is nothing to be ashamed of, it is actually something to be very proud of.

I made a post the other day about how close in greatness 2 players can be that even option 2 can be as great as option 1. Like having Duncan or Hakeem on your team either one is a great pick.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

let's put it this way Howard has a hell of a lot more at stake in making this work than Kobe does


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*

Again Kobe is in his 17th season. Anything he does from now on only helps his legacy, not hurt it.

What were Jordan, Bird, Oscar, West, Wilt, Magic, Robinson, Barkley and countless others doing in their 17th season? Answer: playing golf.

What was Pippen doing? He was an oft-injured nobody on the Bulls.

What was Shaq, Moses and Hakeem doing? Playing on lottery teams, just like Kobe might do.

Stockton? Less than 30 mpg near role player on a team that lost in the first round.

Karl Malone was still an all-star on a playoff team.

Kareem was even better, an all-NBA performer on a team that lost in the WCF.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



Jamel Irief said:


> What was *Shaq*, Moses and Hakeem doing? *Playing on lottery teams,* just like Kobe might do.


I could've sworn Shaq was either playing for the Suns, Cavs or Celtics, all of whom were playoff teams and the second of which had the best record in the NBA.


----------



## Luke

The suns didn't make the playoffs with shaq. And he was a rotation guy at beat by the time he left Phoenix.


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Basel

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



XxIrvingxX said:


> I could've sworn Shaq was either playing for the Suns, Cavs or Celtics, all of whom were playoff teams and the second of which had the best record in the NBA.


His 17th season was on the Suns.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



Jamel Irief said:


> Again Kobe is in his 17th season. Anything he does from now on only helps his legacy, not hurt it.


Exactly on point! 

Although just because some players don't get there shouldn't be a knock against them. Hell I am amazed Bird played past his back injury that happened in 86 or 87 if I remember correctly.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: If the Lakers miss the playoffs, will it hurt Kobe's legacy?*



Luke said:


> The suns didn't make the playoffs with shaq. And he was a rotation guy at beat by the time he left Phoenix.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


Um actually they did the year he was traded to the team. But not the next one. Regardless I was still wrong lol.


----------



## gi0rdun

*Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)*

Maybe we can keep LeBron discussion here in terms of chasing all-time greatness. I for one am convinced that he is currently playing at a transcendental level. Sure I might be overreacting to a sample of 6 games, but that is just proof that LeBron is at a whole different level at basketball.

I've included a poll, and hopefully we can look back in ten years to see who was wrong or who was right.

I genuinely believe that LeBron can win close to 6 (probably more) championships and I think he will be better all-time than the great Michael Jordan.


----------



## Bubbles

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

When it's all said and done, yes.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

If he can keep up this kind of play, I truly believe he will surpass Jordan as the greatest to ever play the game. I never expected him to be this good as he's closing in on his prime, a path that I still don't think he has reached yet which is crazy. It's moments like these were I wish he was still in Cleveland kicking ass.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Yeah, Lebron James has a chance to one-up Michael Jordan.
But cracking the All-time Top-2 players is a whole new ball game (and i don't see him making it!)


----------



## Dee-Zy

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I think that in order for him to be in the conversation of GOAT, he has to win at least one more chip and one more finals MVP than Michael.

A lot of people will turn to 6 in 6 when in comes to finals appearance and will say that Lebron, when it is all said and done, will have at least 2 finals losses.

LJ will also have to have to have at least 5 MVPs. He might be able to get away with 3 or 4 if he have more chips, but a lot of people will always look for certain numbers to discredit LJ.


----------



## Drizzy

Dee-Zy said:


> I think that in order for him to be in the conversation of GOAT, he has to win at least one more chip and one more finals MVP than Michael.
> 
> A lot of people will turn to 6 in 6 when in comes to finals appearance and will say that Lebron, when it is all said and done, will have at least 2 finals losses.
> 
> LJ will also have to have to have at least 5 MVPs. He might be able to get away with 3 or 4 if he have more chips, but a lot of people will always look for certain numbers to discredit LJ.


Can someone explain to me why going six for eight in the finals is worse than six for six? Isn't that like punishing a guy for making it there extra times?


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

That's weird logic to me. LeBron's legacy would be greater if he hadn't made the Finals but had been eliminated earlier in the playoffs? That Cavs team had no business being anywhere near the NBA Finals. I'm not saying LeBron's disappearing act in the 2011 NBA Finals can't be used against him, it should. What I'm saying is simply saying 6 for 6 is better than 6 for 8 or whatever it ends up being because LeBron has Finals losses is illogical. Why do you get points for not making it that far?


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Drizzy said:


> Can someone explain to me why going six for eight in the finals is worse than six for six? Isn't that like punishing a guy for making it there extra times?


Beat me to it.


----------



## Drizzy

I understand the idea of going perfect but it makes it seem like if lebron lost those two years in the ECF it would be more impressive when you put it that way.


----------



## Drizzy

hobojoe said:


> That's weird logic to me. LeBron's legacy would be greater if he hadn't made the Finals but had been eliminated earlier in the playoffs? That Cavs team had no business being anywhere near the NBA Finals. I'm not saying LeBron's disappearing act in the 2011 NBA Finals can't be used against, it should. What I'm saying is simply saying 6 for 6 is better than 6 for 8 or whatever it ends up being because LeBron has Finals losses is illogical. Why do you get points for not making it that far?


:yep:


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

To answer the question, I think LeBron is as good right now as Jordan or anyone else in the history of the game in their respective primes. Will LeBron's final resume match or surpass Jordan's, Magic's, Wilt's and Kareem's when it's all said and done? I don't know, but I don't think anyone has ever played better than LeBron is right now, at least not what I've seen. 

I would say the top 3 primes pretty easily in the last 25+ years are late 80s/early 90s Jordan, late 90s/early 00s Shaq and LeBron of the past couple years. Three very different players with different ways of playing the game, but comparable in terms of dominance and greatness IMO.


----------



## Luke

Losing in the finals is not a black mark, the "perfect" argument is retarded. Having two underwhelming finals appearances, especially one in which you are favored heavily in, is a black mark.

He does have a chance though. He's incredible. I also agree with the. Jordan/Shaq/LeBron tier as far as peaks go.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## jaw2929

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Absolutely not.


----------



## Mattsanity

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Drizzy said:


> Can someone explain to me why going six for eight in the finals is worse than six for six? Isn't that like punishing a guy for making it there extra times?




because critics are perfectionists. they make a big deal out of one or more blemishes and ignore the accomplishments. 

it all depends how he wins 6 championships regardless of how many finals appearances it takes. if he defends his title consistently like Jordan did, then he's still in the conversation as the greatest. If his team wins them during intermittent periods like the Spurs, then I just can't rate him above Jordan.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Of course he will. stupid question.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Can he? Sure anybody can. Will he? If his career ended right now he would be top 20. If keeps up what he is doing this season for 5 or 6 more than yes he might be. 

Will he keep it up? Doubt it. The man relies on physicality and much like his hairline it will be gone soon, still gonna be a top 10 player in the league in 5 or 6 years but he wont keep it up enough to hang with the Jordan's, Wilt's, Magic's and a handful of others at the GOAT TABLE.


----------



## Cajon

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

If he continues playing at the level he's at (or above it) 'til his mid-30s with the necessary accomplishments (MVPs, Championships, FMVPs, etc.) then sure, why not? But will the media and "fans" accept it?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I think he can, but it will always be a matter of opinion. I don't think he has to win a bunch of championships either, as that is a team accomplishment. He needs to maintain his current level of play give or take a little for another couple of years and still be a superstar a couple of years after that. He has a good chance to challenge Kareem's scoring title, which he would achieve right about the time people are ready to give him the crown. If he does that, he will overtake Jordan in the minds of many.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Anyone who had the Heat heavily favored against the Mavericks was stupid. That wasn't a great team and the Mavericks should have been expected to beat them. Lebron played poorly, but there was a reason. He wasn't able to hit outside shots and no one else on that team could hit open shots to open the paint up for him. Dallas was a far better constructed team and it showed up in the way that they were able to crowd the paint with guys who could execute a well thought out defensive scheme. That was the book on that team that entire year and when it mattered they could not hit jumpers.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Jordan was simply the very first ESPN-era superstar. Most of the current sports media personalities grew from an era of basic TV(3-5 channels) to cable programming and finally to instant internet access to everything. 

From A to B was a time of wide eye wonderment which made Jordan a god in shorts because people were not used to even seeing highlights. I mean some people never actually saw these old timers play and saw very few live games even through Magic/Bird.

From B to C was the age of cynicism. Everything was questioned. What full access did was turn athletes from gods to mortals. I mean it is hard to criticize and find fault with a god. Every athlete since Jordan has had to withstand viscous attacks of some sort during their career. Nothing like the free pass that guys like Jordan, Barkley, Ewing and others enjoyed.

However, in the end LeBron will have to surpass some of Jordan's accomplishments on the court to even get into that conversation. Advanced stats won't change entrenched minds. If he can get to 6 rings, he will surpass Jordan if he is still a top dog when he gets them.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Diable said:


> Anyone who had the Heat heavily favored against the Mavericks was stupid. That wasn't a great team and the Mavericks should have been expected to beat them. Lebron played poorly, but there was a reason. He wasn't able to hit outside shots and no one else on that team could hit open shots to open the paint up for him. Dallas was a far better constructed team and it showed up in the way that they were able to crowd the paint with guys who could execute a well thought out defensive scheme. That was the book on that team that entire year and when it mattered they could not hit jumpers.


A little off topic (unless I'm missing something here) but you couldn't be more correct with that statement.


----------



## Knick Killer

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

If they played one-on-one, LeBron would dominate.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



MemphisX said:


> Jordan was simply the very first ESPN-era superstar. Most of the current sports media personalities grew from an era of basic TV(3-5 channels) to cable programming and finally to instant internet access to everything.
> 
> From A to B was a time of wide eye wonderment which made Jordan a god in shorts because people were not used to even seeing highlights. I mean some people never actually saw these old timers play and saw very few live games even through Magic/Bird.
> 
> From B to C was the age of cynicism. Everything was questioned. What full access did was turn athletes from gods to mortals. I mean it is hard to criticize and find fault with a god. Every athlete since Jordan has had to withstand viscous attacks of some sort during their career. Nothing like the free pass that guys like Jordan, Barkley, Ewing and others enjoyed.
> 
> However, in the end LeBron will have to surpass some of Jordan's accomplishments on the court to even get into that conversation. Advanced stats won't change entrenched minds. If he can get to 6 rings, he will surpass Jordan if he is still a top dog when he gets them.


Great post.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

truthfully he is already there.

mj at his best was during his 1st 3 peat at age 28-30

lebron is everything mj was plus he can facilitate offense for others as a point guard or post up as a power forward plus be the league's best 2 guard or small forward if he chooses to be.

unstoppable scorer ...check.

all league defender....check.

world's best closer ...check.

people are too caught up in resume's when they need to be more concerned with what player's capabilities are and his level of play.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Da Grinch said:


> truthfully he is already there.
> 
> mj at his best was during his 1st 3 peat at age 28-30
> 
> lebron is everything mj was plus he can facilitate offense for others as a point guard or post up as a power forward plus be the league's best 2 guard or small forward if he chooses to be.
> 
> unstoppable scorer ...check.
> 
> all league defender....check.
> 
> *world's best closer ...check.*
> 
> people are too caught up in resume's when they need to be more concerned with what player's capabilities are and his level of play.


Don't know about that one. I'm not one of the morons who say that he can't close games but I wouldn't say he's the BEST closer per say.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Amazingly, Michael Jordan has become underrated in this thread.

Lebron is a freak of nature, can guard all 5 positions on the court, has incredible vision and can create for himself in a variety of ways... he's the best player in the world right now and one of the best players ever. MJ was better. Better offensively. Better defensively. Better in the clutch. 

Can Lebron get there? Yeah.. he's just entering his prime... but he's already entering the portion of his career where MJ's team accomplishments at a comparable age are nearly impossible to keep pace with. I don't buy that championships don't matter... the point is to win the game, and in basketball more than any other major team sport one guy can have an impact on whether a team wins or loses. What sets Jordan apart, aside from the statistical superiority, is that time and time again he imposed his will when it mattered... I've seen flashes of it with Lebron, with Jordan it was a constant. I guess we'll see.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Of course he *can.* I love how basketball fans have created this mystique around Jordan that no one can ever touch him.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Jordan didn't win his first ring til he was 28. Just like Lebron. Zomg, shady wizardry.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Don't know about that one. I'm not one of the morons who say that he can't close games but I wouldn't say he's the BEST closer per say.


last season i saw him put away the thunder in a way kobe couldn't when he faced them in the playoffs...and he's playing even better now.


----------



## Floods

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Da Grinch said:


> truthfully he is already there.
> 
> mj at his best was during his 1st 3 peat at age 28-30
> 
> lebron is everything mj was plus he can facilitate offense for others as a point guard or post up as a power forward plus be the league's best 2 guard or small forward if he chooses to be.
> 
> unstoppable scorer ...check.
> 
> all league defender....check.
> 
> world's best closer ...check.
> 
> people are too caught up in resume's when they need to be more concerned with what player's capabilities are and his level of play.


**** off. From 86-87 through 92-93 Jordan was *the best* offensive player in the league and *the best* defensive player in the league. Jordan scored well over 30 ppg on well over 50% shooting for five years in a row (in 93 he scored 32 while shooting 49%, in 87 he scored 37 while shooting 48%). Has LeBron done anything like that? No he has not. Last season and this season are the only seasons of LeBron's career even sniffing Jordan level.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Dornado said:


> Amazingly, Michael Jordan has become underrated in this thread.
> 
> Lebron is a freak of nature, can guard all 5 positions on the court, has incredible vision and can create for himself in a variety of ways... he's the best player in the world right now and one of the best players ever. MJ was better. Better offensively. Better defensively. Better in the clutch.
> 
> Can Lebron get there? Yeah.. he's just entering his prime... but he's already entering the portion of his career where MJ's team accomplishments at a comparable age are nearly impossible to keep pace with. I don't buy that championships don't matter... the point is to win the game, and in basketball more than any other major team sport one guy can have an impact on whether a team wins or loses. What sets Jordan apart, aside from the statistical superiority, is that time and time again he imposed his will when it mattered... I've seen flashes of it with Lebron, with Jordan it was a constant. I guess we'll see.


The better defender thing is your own opinion. Jordan was a better scorer but LeBron is a more well-rounded player with his passing and rebounding to compliment his scoring. He's a better passer than Jordan ever was. I also heard a stat from Tom Haberstroh a few weeks ago how LeBron pulls down around 83% of the rebounds in his area whereas Dwight pulls down 81%, and that is the league leading rebounder and somebody considered an athletic freak. LeBron just destroys everybody 1-5 on the court on both ends and makes it look easy.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Lebron is dominating right now, playing the best basketball of his career, so naturally this topic will rear it's ugly head again long before it's supposed to.

In 5 or 6 years give or take, we will know who the greatest player of all time is. Actually, no we won't. We will probably have a never ending debate. Lebron will have more MVPs, better stats, but less rings. Now if Lebron somehow gets equal or more rings. Say goodnight MJ.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

its worth noting that at the time mj was 28 and in lbj's shoes(coming off his 1st title basically looking like his reign was simply inevitable for at least 3 years like bird 84-86 and magic 87-89 when during those 6 years they won a combined 5 mvp's and 5 titles) no great swelling of popular consensus saying jordan was the best ever , it was more a link in the chain of greatness, that it was now his time to shine.

it really began when he retired and there was a greatness vacuum to take over the nba from him, that it was an easy assumption that if he had stayed he probably would have won at least once during those 2 seasons , and he did win 3 more in a row afterwards.

a lot of what is being said of jordan is revisionist history , weirdly used against lebron and other stars as a measuring stick...before jordan won his 1st title it was a common way of thought that he could never win dominating the offense as much as he did, that his entire way of play was flawed while entertaining to watch and ultimately less productive than the more team oriented approaches of bird and magic...now lebron is being held up to a standard of dominating the offense as a badge of greatness, its odd to say the least....much like the faulting lebron for making the finals but not succeeding as opposed to losing in the 2nd round and conf. finals as mj did before winning it all.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Regardless of what we think no one will let that happen until he gets at least 4-5 rings

I think he can but I don't think he can lose any more Finals'

And he needs this pace for another 3-4 years


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Da Grinch said:


> its worth noting that at the time mj was 28 and in lbj's shoes(coming off his 1st title basically looking like his reign was simply inevitable for at least 3 years like bird 84-86 and magic 87-89 when during those 6 years they won a combined 5 mvp's and 5 titles) no great swelling of popular consensus saying jordan was the best ever , it was more a link in the chain of greatness, that it was now his time to shine.
> 
> it really began when he retired and there was a greatness vacuum to take over the nba from him, that it was an easy assumption that if he had stayed he probably would have won at least once during those 2 seasons , and he did win 3 more in a row afterwards.
> 
> a lot of what is being said of jordan is revisionist history , weirdly used against lebron and other stars as a measuring stick...before jordan won his 1st title it was a common way of thought that he could never win dominating the offense as much as he did, that his entire way of play was flawed while entertaining to watch and ultimately less productive than the more team oriented approaches of bird and magic...now lebron is being held up to a standard of dominating the offense as a badge of greatness, its odd to say the least....much like the faulting lebron for making the finals but not succeeding as opposed to losing in the 2nd round and conf. finals as mj did before winning it all.


Maybe not when he was 28, but it didn't take long for the consensus to form that Jordan was the greatest ever. People were talking about it in the early 90's and I'd say a strong majority supported that opinion by the time he was steam-rolling through his second three-peat. 

I'm not quite sure what you think is revisionist history... I think most people know that Michael drew criticism early in his career for not being more team-centric (even though he averaged 8 assists a game in '88-'89), and that part of his maturation was his new-found willingness to rely on Pippen, Grant and others. At least that was the narrative - he was mostly surrounded by trash before Pippen and Grant hit their primes. I do think it is ironic that James gets criticized if he passes up a shot late in a game when early-Jordan faced criticism for being a ballhog. Anyway, I don't think the "Jordan standard" to which James is being held is limited to "dominating the offense"... that may be a component piece, but I think it is more about willing/leading your team to victory, particularly in the playoffs.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

There really aren't a lot of players left to compare him too. People aren't going to seriously argue that Bird is better at his position any longer. The argument now is how high up in the top five he ends up. Only non Big Men left to compare him to are Magic and MJ. Interesting thought to me is what if he spends the rest of his career playing Power Forward. It would be one hell of a trick for him to pass Bird as a SF and Duncan as a PF.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I think offensively you could make a case that Bird was his equal (though James will soon put him in the rearview mirror, I'd think)... Larry just couldn't defend at anything near the level Lebron can (Bird was better than some think defensively, but not in the ballpark)... you're right, there aren't a lot of guys left to compare him to.


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Dre said:


> Regardless of what we think no one will let that happen until he gets at least 4-5 rings
> 
> I think he can but I don't think he can lose any more Finals'
> 
> And he needs this pace for another 3-4 years


Two separate discussions -- will LeBron ever be considered the GOAT? Yea, I agree he definitely needs more rings to even enter the discussion. But the other question, is the level he's playing at right now the highest we've ever seen or at least on the same level as Jordan's prime? It's definitely a worthwhile discussion at this point.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Floods said:


> **** off. From 86-87 through 92-93 Jordan was *the best* offensive player in the league and *the best* defensive player in the league. Jordan scored well over 30 ppg on well over 50% shooting for five years in a row (in 93 he scored 32 while shooting 49%, in 87 he scored 37 while shooting 48%). Has LeBron done anything like that? No he has not. Last season and this season are the only seasons of LeBron's career even sniffing Jordan level.


Let's not forget that he played in a league where there were multiple great defenders, not just.... shit I can't even think of a great defender in the league right now. Lebron is reaping the benefits of playing in a league without defense. If Jordan were to play now he would be an unholy terror. If you haven't seen him play in the late 80s and early 90s you would remember all eyes were on him.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Floods said:


> **** off. From 86-87 through 92-93 Jordan was *the best* offensive player in the league and *the best* defensive player in the league. Jordan scored well over 30 ppg on well over 50% shooting for five years in a row (in 93 he scored 32 while shooting 49%, in 87 he scored 37 while shooting 48%). Has LeBron done anything like that? No he has not. Last season and this season are the only seasons of LeBron's career even sniffing Jordan level.


Lebron and Jordan are two completely different players dude. Lebron's game doesn't revolve around scoring, he could care less about scoring. He's stated that numerous times now and you can tell that he doesn't give a shit just by watching him play. His game revolves around getting others involved and making his teammates better, and he does it at an incredible rate. 

Michael Jordan was a scorer. He was great in other areas as well but his scoring was his main arsenal. So comparing those high scoring seasons that he had to Lebron's seasons is foolish.

Lebron just broke an NBA record in an area that he isn't even interested in. That alone speaks for itself. He's shooting 56% from the field and 40% from 3, he could definitely average 37 per year if he wanted to, easily. 



Hyperion said:


> Let's not forget that he played in a league where there were multiple great defenders, not just.... shit I can't even think of a great defender in the league right now. Lebron is reaping the benefits of playing in a league without defense. If Jordan were to play now he would be an unholy terror. If you haven't seen him play in the late 80s and early 90s you would remember all eyes were on him.


This post gives me every reason to think that you don't even watch the majority of Lebron's games. Do you see the shots that Lebron hits? Sure a lot of them are good shots that he creates for himself, but it's been a long time where I've seen a game that Lebron was in where he didn't have one or two shots that made my jaw drop. He's an incredibly talented offensive player, easily the best in the NBA at the moment, and arguably the best defender as well.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

The All Star game also has those great moments. Just because Lebron is an amazing talent does not mean that he's playing against amazing talent. There aren't any great on man defenders I'm the league anymore except for maybe Lebron.


----------



## Porn Player

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Does LeBron where 6 because that is the number of 'ships he knows he will have to achieve to be considered MJ level?


----------



## Floods

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Lebron and Jordan are two completely different players dude. Lebron's game doesn't revolve around scoring, he could care less about scoring. He's stated that numerous times now and you can tell that he doesn't give a shit just by watching him play. His game revolves around getting others involved and making his teammates better, and he does it at an incredible rate.
> 
> Michael Jordan was a scorer. He was great in other areas as well but his scoring was his main arsenal. So comparing those high scoring seasons that he had to Lebron's seasons is foolish.
> 
> Lebron just broke an NBA record in an area that he isn't even interested in. That alone speaks for itself. He's shooting 56% from the field and 40% from 3, he could definitely average 37 per year if he wanted to, easily.


So the only reason LeBron James doesn't average 37 points a game is because he doesn't feel like it? That's hilarious.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Floods said:


> So the only reason LeBron James doesn't average 37 points a game is because he doesn't feel like it? That's hilarious.


It does beg the question... why has he been taking 20 shots per game over the course of his career (MJ is at about 23, Magic at about 13... Bird at 19... obviously they have later seasons in their careers to bring those numbers down a bit) if he doesn't give a shit about scoring?

Lebron does care about scoring and is one of the best scorers in the league... it may be true that he prefers to distribute on occasion, but let's not act like he was born Steve Nash and got forced into all of this shooting.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Here's how Bird and James compare statistically at age 28:


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I was actually thinking about that. James is replacing Bird as the best SF of all time and not replacing Jordan as the best SG or GOAT.


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Dornado said:


> Here's how Bird and James compare statistically at age 28:


There's also a pretty significant difference in pace those raw numbers don't show that tilt things in LeBron's favor.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



hobojoe said:


> There's also a pretty significant difference in pace those raw numbers don't show that tilt things in LeBron's favor.


True, and the numbers I posted obviously don't account for some immeasurable things like on-ball defense, for example.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. Lebron James is not and will never be "better" than Jordan. In a best case scenario he might come very close, maybe even marginally match him, but to actually EXCEED what Jordan accomplished? That is crazy talk. 

- To be better than MJ, Lebron would have to win at least 6 more championships (7 total), all of them as the unanimous leader and best player on his team.

- To be better than MJ, Lebron would have to prove he is capable of scoring at that level for sustained periods. MJ had an 82-game season of 37 ppg and another of 35 ppg w/ over 53% FG efficiency.

- To be better than MJ, Lebron would have to rack of a good solid 10-12 memorable clutch shots in crucial nail biting playoff situations -- like, "down to the final 10 seconds or your team loses" type of clutch -- including in the Finals.

- To be better than MJ, Lebron would have to lead his team to multiple (2-3) regular season records that reach or exceed 69-70 wins. 

On top of that, from a simple basketball capabilities standpoint, MJ matches or exceeds Lebron on every possible attribute except one, and that is physical size (6'8 240 compared to 6'6 215), which gives the luxury of Lebron playing and/or defending PFs on occasion.

And it's not like Lebron's career average stats are even better than MJ's, let alone being enough to overcome all these other things.

Then you consider the legacy things...MJ never did, and never would have, formed a super team. Nor did he flounder in the most crucial situations like the NBA Finals. 

I am surprised at how many people are taking this thought seriously. Would much, much prefer we change the wording of the thread to "How close will Lebron get to matching Jordan" or "Will Lebron end up better/greater than Magic Johnson and Larry Bird and Wilt Chamerlain". Jordan is THE gold standard in the history of basketball, period. Lebron is just not going to realistically usurp Jordan for that role.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

You're just making it a basketball card debate man


----------



## Floods

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



yodurk said:


> - To be better than MJ, Lebron would have to rack of a good solid 10-12 memorable clutch shots in crucial nail biting playoff situations -- like, "down to the final 10 seconds or your team loses" type of clutch -- including in the Finals.


I agree with the main point of the post, but this is utter crap. Not only is 'clutch' itself bogus, but its role in players' legacies is pure pathos.



> Then you consider the legacy things...MJ never did, and never would have, formed a super team.


He didn't need to, he had Scottie Pippen. And Horace Grant, one of the best supporting players you could ask for. What did LeBron have in Cleveland? Mo Williams, Shaq's corpse, Jamison's corpse, and Daniel Gibson. Let Jordan's hyper-competitive personality try to win with that group and see if he forces his way out of town before too long.



> Nor did he flounder in the most crucial situations like the NBA Finals.


Lol oh really?


----------



## yodurk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Floods said:


> I agree with the main point of the post, but this is utter crap. Not only is 'clutch' itself bogus, but its role in players' legacies is pure pathos.


Many reputable coaches and players in the NBA would beg to differ. Why do you think so many coaches preach the "mental" aspects of the game? The ability to stay focused under pressure is a completely legitimate trait that distinguishes some players over others. But I am glad you agree with some of my points. 




> He didn't need to, he had Scottie Pippen. And Horace Grant, one of the supporting players you could ask for. What did LeBron have in Cleveland? Mo Williams, Shaq's corpse, Jamison's corpse, and Daniel Gibson. Let Jordan's hyper-competitive personality try to win with that group and see if he forces his way out of town before too long.


Yes, he didn't need to; fair enough. I am not denying Lebron's cast in Cleveland was shoddy compared to MJ's, and I'm also not denying Lebron's right to sign somewhere else. However, the concept of scheming behind the scenes with in-conference rivals to team up and win titles is pretty lame, something MJ never would have done, and had too much pride not to do. 



> Lol oh really?


That was not intended to be a shot at Lebron. It was meant to be a testament to MJ's ability to show his best on the biggest stage. I agree that Lebron's "not clutch" argument is way overplayed -- he has burned my team in the 4th quarter too often for me to say otherwise -- however, he can't take back the fact that he did not raise his game on the biggest stage of his career at one point, when the man we're trying to say he will "better than" someday never did that. If that's not a legit point when comparing Lebron James to the gold standard of basketball history, then we're really limiting the topic of conversation here. They are both great players with almost inperceivable flaws, you need to nitpick if you're going to draw any meaningful conclusion.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Dre said:


> You're just making it a basketball card debate man


How so? I am trying to give a balance of subjective and objective; thing I've seen, opinions derived, and results on paper. Do you have a better way of going about it?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Floods said:


> So the only reason LeBron James doesn't average 37 points a game is because he doesn't feel like it? That's hilarious.


If you think he doesn't have the ability to average 37 per game then you are crazy.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Dornado said:


> It does beg the question... *why has he been taking 20 shots per game over the course of his career* (MJ is at about 23, Magic at about 13... Bird at 19... obviously they have later seasons in their careers to bring those numbers down a bit) if he doesn't give a shit about scoring?
> 
> Lebron does care about scoring and is one of the best scorers in the league... it may be true that he prefers to distribute on occasion, but let's not act like he was born Steve Nash and got forced into all of this shooting.


In Cleveland he didn't really have much of a choice. He had to take the majority of the shots. In Miami his shots per game have gone done noticeably. Could someone get the actual statistic for me? (too lazy to look it up atm).


----------



## Floods

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> If you think he doesn't have the ability to average 37 per game then you are crazy.


The hell is this? It doesn't matter if he has the _ability_, only that he's never _done it_. Who in Cleveland was demanding that LeBron waste his time creating opportunities for his horrible teammates instead of just taking care of things himself? Talk all you want about ability, but it's production that matters. And as of right now, LeBron's production is barely fit to rub the taint of Jordan's production.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Floods said:


> The hell is this? It doesn't matter if he has the _ability_, only that he's never _done it_. Who in Cleveland was demanding that LeBron waste his time creating opportunities for his horrible teammates instead of just taking care of things himself? Talk all you want about ability, but it's production that matters. And as of right now, LeBron's production is barely fit to rub the taint of Jordan's production.


How? Because he doesn't get as much points as Jordan does? So what. You're saying that because of that, the production in his seasons doesn't come anywhere close to Jordan's? Are you kidding me? His ability to get everyone around him involved and make others better makes up for the fact that his scoring numbers aren't as high as Jordan's. Even if Lebron isn't averaging 37 per game, his seasons are definitely close to being as productive in a year by year basis in comparison to Jordan's, if not more.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Not more. Close, but not that close.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

If Lebron wins five titles with Wade as the second banana then he's light years better than Jordan, because Pippen is that much better than Wade when it comes to helping a team win a title. Jordan never won shit without a great team around him and it's just complete nonsense to act like those six rings are his exclusive property or that anyone who is compared to him needs to have more rings without context.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Wait was Pippen a Finals MVP?

Also, no, Wade is a better talent than Pippen relative to position.

Also, when Jordan came back, the Bulls were 34-32, not exactly a great team without him. They finished that season with a 13-3 run to get to 47-35. Let's not kid ourselves here.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Hyperion said:


> Wait was Pippen a Finals MVP?


Pippen never got to the finals when Jordan wasn't on the team. And when Wade won that award the second best scorer on his team was Antoine Walker. Horrible argument.



Hyperion said:


> Also, no, Wade is a better talent than Pippen relative to position.


Talent wise I agree but Pippen had a much bigger impact on the court and it isn't even arguable. 



Hyperion said:


> Also, when Jordan came back, the Bulls were 34-32, not exactly a great team without him. They finished that season with a 13-3 run to get to 47-35. Let's not kid ourselves here.


The Bulls lost three key players, one of whom being Horace Grant, in the offseason and Paxson retired. Of course they weren't going to do so well. And I love how you just completely left out the entire season before without Michael where the Bulls won 55 games in the season.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

So Wade's Final's MVP doesn't count now? Also Shaq was on that team. The point is that Lebron has a player who is a phenomenal talent in the NBA and is also a very good defender. No, he's not as good or even anywhere near as good as Pippen on the defensive end, but he is much better on the offensive end. Wade is much better than Pippen. Then on top of that, he has Bosh.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Wade almost has two finals MVP's. If OKC had won last year he'd have done more to help them win than anyone on the Thunder. Lebron does not have a ring because of Wade, he has a ring in spite of him. Jordan never had to worry about Pippen being a negative. Lebron is going to have to worry about it as long as he's in Miami.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Hyperion said:


> So Wade's Final's MVP doesn't count now? Also Shaq was on that team.


Shaq was completely irrelevant to the Heat's success. He was horrible in that finals series. Come on now you're starting to sound like Luke. 

And no, his finals MVP doesn't count. Because in a situation like this that is completely irrelevant. That's why I'm choosing not to mention Pippen's all star MVP award, because it's irrelevant (even though that would have more meaning in this situation than Wade's finals MVP award). 



Hyperion said:


> The point is that Lebron has a player who is a phenomenal talent in the NBA and is also a very good defender.


If by very good defender you mean very good HELP defender, then yes. 



Hyperion said:


> No, he's not as good or even anywhere near as good as Pippen on the defensive end, but he is much better on the offensive end.


Wade has Pippen in terms of scoring on the offensive end. That's it. When it came to rebounding Pippen was an excellent rebounder for a small forward (that has nothing to do with his offensive abilities I just felt like bringing it up), and when it came to getting assists, Pippen averaged 5.2 assists per game, and his total assists in his career is currently a record among fowards. It's obvious he's the better of the two at getting others involved and getting others to score points. Just because Wade was better at scoring doesn't automatically mean he's better all around offensively, it's just like Floods, people need to stop going with that argument. I won't say Pippen was the better offensive player of the two, but Wade definitely isn't "much" better on the offensive end. Better? Yes (and only because he too can get others involved as well), but not "much" better.

On top of all of that, Scottie could do it all. He was an all around machine. Wade isn't. Wade can't even shoot from threes as well as Scottie could as his career progressed (when he started out he was a horrible shooter). Scottie has a bigger affect on the floor than Wade does, no questions asked, and he is definitely better than Wade (no questions asked). 



Hyperion said:


> Wade is much better than Pippen. Then on top of that, he has Bosh.


Yea no, if you think a dynamic scoring guard with good abilities in other areas is better than one of the best all around small forwards in NBA history then you are crazy. And Bosh is basically the Horace Grant of the Heat, only with much better offensive abilities but worse rebounding stats (although I do believe Bosh is the better rebounder of the two, he won't have the rebounding stats Horace did when he was on the Bulls because of Lebron and Wade being on the team.) 

Plus Michael had Phil Jackson as his coach. I think that makes up for it.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Diable said:


> Wade almost has two finals MVP's. If OKC had won last year he'd have done more to help them win than anyone on the Thunder. Lebron does not have a ring because of Wade, he has a ring in spite of him. Jordan never had to worry about Pippen being a negative. Lebron is going to have to worry about it as long as he's in Miami.


You don't remember this but Pippen had quite a few disappearing acts during the playoffs.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Hyperion said:


> You don't remember this but Pippen had quite a few disappearing acts during the playoffs.


So did Wade...


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Hyperion said:


> You don't remember this but Pippen had quite a few disappearing acts during the playoffs.


I remember quite well. You seem to be determined to overrate the hell out of Wade. Wade was nowhere to be seen in the Chicago series before that Finals. I don't recall seeing Lebron on that team however and no one has ever seen Wade play like that since, although the refs still fall for that silly ass shit where he falls down like he's drinking fortified wine in the Gatorade cup.

When it comes to helping a team win Wade is not anywhere near the same level as Pippen. It's not an argument unless you're just determined to argue that Jordan didn't have incredibly talented teams around him. Pippen is a vastly superior team player to Wade and there aren't any National One-on-One Championships.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Shaq was completely irrelevant to the Heat's success. He was horrible in that finals series. Come on now you're starting to sound like Luke.
> 
> And no, his finals MVP doesn't count. Because in a situation like this that is completely irrelevant. That's why I'm choosing not to mention Pippen's all star MVP award, because it's irrelevant (even though that would have more meaning in this situation than Wade's finals MVP award).
> 
> 
> 
> If by very good defender you mean very good HELP defender, then yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Wade has Pippen in terms of scoring on the offensive end. That's it. When it came to rebounding Pippen was an excellent rebounder for a small forward (that has nothing to do with his offensive abilities I just felt like bringing it up), and when it came to getting assists, Pippen averaged 5.2 assists per game, and his total assists in his career is currently a record among fowards. It's obvious he's the better of the two at getting others involved and getting others to score points. Just because Wade was better at scoring doesn't automatically mean he's better all around offensively, it's just like Floods, people need to stop going with that argument. I won't say Pippen was the better offensive player of the two, but Wade definitely isn't "much" better on the offensive end. Better? Yes (and only because he too can get others involved as well), but not "much" better.
> 
> On top of all of that, Scottie could do it all. He was an all around machine. Wade isn't. Wade can't even shoot from threes as well as Scottie could as his career progressed (when he started out he was a horrible shooter). Scottie has a bigger affect on the floor than Wade does, no questions asked, and he is definitely better than Wade (no questions asked).
> 
> 
> 
> Yea no, if you think a dynamic scoring guard with good abilities in other areas is better than one of the best all around small forwards in NBA history then you are crazy. And Bosh is basically the Horace Grant of the Heat, only with much better offensive abilities but worse rebounding stats (although I do believe Bosh is the better rebounder of the two, he won't have the rebounding stats Horace did when he was on the Bulls because of Lebron and Wade being on the team.)
> 
> Plus Michael had Phil Jackson as his coach. I think that makes up for it.


Bosh and Wade are a better tandem than Horace and Pippen. You can't discount Wade because Pippen could rebound better. that's tantamount to saying Hakeem was better than Jordan because of xy and z. The facts of the matter are that Wade is an excellent rebounder for SGs and and excellent playmaker for SGs. Pippen was what is known as a Point-Forward. He ran the offense like a PG. If Marion had better playmaking abilities, he'd be Pippen 0.9 (not as good but very similar). 

I don't want to compare apples to oranges but rather the relative impact of the player to the position since Lebron is the SF while Jordan was a SG. The help that Lebron has is much higher caliber than what Jordan had. Is 5rpg and 5apg that much different from 7rpg and 6apg?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Hyperion said:


> Bosh and Wade are a better tandem than Horace and Pippen. You can't discount Wade because Pippen could rebound better. that's tantamount to saying Hakeem was better than Jordan because of xy and z. The facts of the matter are that Wade is an excellent rebounder for SGs and and excellent playmaker for SGs. Pippen was what is known as a Point-Forward. He ran the offense like a PG. If Marion had better playmaking abilities, he'd be Pippen 0.9 (not as good but very similar).
> 
> I don't want to compare apples to oranges but rather the relative impact of the player to the position since Lebron is the SF while Jordan was a SG. The help that Lebron has is much higher caliber than what Jordan had. *Is 5rpg and 5apg that much different from 7rpg and 6apg?*


Yes, they are, especially when the position is different. I'm not discrediting Wade in favor of Pippen because Pippen could rebound better, I'm discredting him because Pippen was literally better than Wade was at everything that there is in basketball apart from scoring. You really have no idea how much of an impact Pippen made on the floor do you? Even when he isn't scoring or getting assists, he was an excellent playmaker and his ability to run plays out on the floor was excellent. He was also a great off the ball player as well.

Lebron James does not have that in Wade or Bosh. What he has are two gifted scorers who need the ball in order to be effective. Wade does have the ability to make others better and get them involved but not to the extent that Pippen does. Wade's biggest strength offensively is his scoring. Lebron is a guy that excels at getting others involved. If we were saying who would benefit more from the best player on their team, Wade wins this one easily. But when you're the best player on your team and your main weapon on offense is your ability to score, the best possible second man teammate that you could have is a player who is a genius on offense when it comes to running the play and getting you those opportunities. Pippen does that for Jordan. Wade does not do that for Lebron, unless you want to make me laugh and count the fast break alley oops they do. 

I still can't believe you're trying to argue this. There is no possible way you can even debate a subject matter like this. For any scorer, a guy who can make you better is always the best possible second best player, and no one from any team will be a better second man for that kind of person. No one. And above all of that, Pippen is better than Wade, it's as simple as that. You can praise Wade's scoring all you want like he's a god for doing it or something but in the end all around play beats one dimensional play and I'd rather have a guy who does everything at an elite level than a guy who's amazing in one area and decent in the others. Anyone who would want the latter needs their head examined.


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

You know what's even worse than a disappearing act in the playoffs (LeBron 2011 NBA Finals)? Stubbornly shooting your team out of a title (Kobe 2004 NBA Finals). Dwyane Wade nearly did that last year on several occasions, but LeBron didn't let it happen. Wade will get a pass for his performance when we look back at his career because they won the title, but he was down right terrible and a detriment to the Heat's chances at times last year in the playoffs (particularly against Indiana and Boston). 

But at the same time, that doesn't change what Wade accomplished early in his career as "the man" and how good he was. It just supports the notion that Pippen was a better Robin even if Wade is the better, or at the very least the more accomplished Batman.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I guess there's no arguing with people who have decided that Wade, who was previously thought to be the best or second best SG in the NBA, is one dimensional. Bosh is better than Grant was at any point in his career period. Lebron has more help on both ends of the floor than Jordan did. Jordan was just that good. He had his team zeroed in for every game.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

What the hell does what people used to think about Wade have to with what he is? I used to think that Scooby Doo was a great TV show myself. You apparently think that Wade is some guy he hasn't been for years.

What is Wade? He's a deeply flawed second banana who often harms his team instead of helping it. Those Bulls teams were a lot more than Grant and Pippen too. The idea that you need a certain number of titles to pass Jordan is literally a moronic concept. You need some rings obviously, but Lebron needs to be a better player than Jordan to be a better player than Jordan. That's a big enough task.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Hyperion said:


> I guess there's no arguing with people who have decided that Wade, who was previously thought to be the best or second best SG in the NBA, is one dimensional. Bosh is better than Grant was at any point in his career period. Lebron has more help on both ends of the floor than Jordan did. Jordan was just that good. He had his team zeroed in for every game.


This isn't the same Dwayne Wade as before dude. You need to start realizing that. If we were talking about the Dwayne Wade of 2006-2009 then I would be saying he still is one of the best players in the league. Now that isn't the case. Scottie Pippen actually was one of the best players in the league still, some even argue he was the second best player in the NBA with Jordan being the first. Hell Chuck Daily thought that Pippen was the best player on the dream team. Wade is not anywhere close to being as good a player as Pippen was. Scoring is all he has him on. That's it. And the fact that you're trying to say that the help Lebron has now is better than the help Jordan had is just laughable.

And Jordan was just that good? Is that why it took Pippen becoming an all star and Grant joining the team just for Jordan to beat the Pistons? (not saying they were a bad team or anything, a legendary team, but still). That 72 win game season the bulls had, you're saying that wasn't because of how much help the best basketball player in the world was having that year? Without Pippen, I'm fully convinced Jordan would not have been able to win half the championships that he won. Right now I'm convinced that Lebron could win a title again this year if Wade got injured and was out for the year, because Lebron's doing so good right now that it seems like they don't even need Wade, and they even got Ray Allen to play the starting role for the rest of the year if that were to happen.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

His defense hasn't fallen off a cliff. Only his offense has gone down. regardless of your opinions, the fact remains that this Heat team is much more talented than any previous Bulls team sans their best respective player. Lebron will never be considered as good as Jordan because of the Decision and the fact that he can't dominate both ends of the floor like Jordan did. No one has even come close.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Hyperion said:


> His defense hasn't fallen off a cliff. Only his offense has gone down. regardless of your opinions, the fact remains that this Heat team is much more talented than any previous Bulls team sans their best respective player. Lebron will never be considered as good as Jordan because of the Decision and the fact that he can't dominate both ends of the floor like Jordan did. No one has even come close.


Rofl, Lebron just got done dominating the offensive side of the floor in a way that no man ever did in the history of the NBA. I'm sensing a large bias towards Lebron.

And this heat team is more talented? Right, I'll agree with you on that once they can reach the 70 win mark. Until then you couldn't be more wrong.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Changing the rules kinda helps too. Lebron is a top 10 all time talent, but he's no Jordan. Have you seen Jordan play in the early 90s? There was a collective hush when he would catch the ball. There was no "when will he put it all together and reach his potential" crap. It was Jordan and then everyone else. At no time in the history of the league has it been dominated by one man so thoroughly.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Hyperion said:


> Changing the rules kinda helps too. Lebron is a top 10 all time talent, but he's no Jordan. Have you seen Jordan play in the early 90s? There was a collective hush when he would catch the ball. There was no "when will he put it all together and reach his potential" crap. It was Jordan and then everyone else. At no time in the history of the league has it been dominated by one man so thoroughly.


You're right, he's no Jordan. He's Lebron. And he dominates the game in his own way. No ever dominated basketball like Jordan did, but here's the thing, Lebron's career isn't over yet. It has a long way to go. He's just about to enter his prime and he's dominating basketball in a way that we've never seen anyone dominate it before (although his performance in the all star game might end up killing that entire statement).

And where's all this "when will he put it all together and reach his potential" nonsense coming from? Lebron wasn't doing anything wrong really, when he was in Cleveland he had no back up to make up for his bad games, in Dallas, he ran into a well constructed team defensively and his lack of a consistent jumper cost him and Miami the series. Other than that, Lebron has been dominating basketball for quite a while now, and I'd say it all started in his third year in the league when he was 20 years old and was averaging 30 points per game. 

And for the next six or so years, he will continue to dominate the sport.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I never understood why LeBron had to win at least 7 titles. Bill Russell was voted the greatest player of all-time at the 35th anniversary in 1980. He has 11 titles. 

Did Jordan have to win 12 to eclipse him? No. Arguments can be made for and against Jordan over Russell.

It is completely arbitrary to say a player has to match another great players accomplishments to surpass him. It can be done with any great. Jordan has score 38k points to surpass Kareem as the greatest. Or 6 MVP's. Or average the numbers that Wilt did. This is a fruitless way to compare players.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I never understood why LeBron had to win at least 7 titles. Bill Russell was voted the greatest player of all-time at the 35th anniversary in 1980. He has 11 titles.
> 
> Did Jordan have to win 12 to eclipse him? No. Arguments can be made for and against Jordan over Russell.
> 
> It is completely arbitrary to say a player has to match another great players accomplishments to surpass him. It can be done with any great. Jordan has score 38k points to surpass Kareem as the greatest. Or 6 MVP's. Or average the numbers that Wilt did. This is a fruitless way to compare players.


I....O_O...I actually completely agree with this statement. In fact it's pretty much the best possible argument I've heard so far.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I never understood why LeBron had to win at least 7 titles. Bill Russell was voted the greatest player of all-time at the 35th anniversary in 1980. He has 11 titles.
> 
> Did Jordan have to win 12 to eclipse him? No. Arguments can be made for and against Jordan over Russell.
> 
> It is completely arbitrary to say a player has to match another great players accomplishments to surpass him. It can be done with any great. Jordan has score 38k points to surpass Kareem as the greatest. Or 6 MVP's. Or average the numbers that Wilt did. This is a fruitless way to compare players.


I don't want to assign motives to other people, but it certainly appears that these criteria are being made mandatory so that it does not become necessary to acknowledge the possibility that Lebron can pass Jordan. It just seems that some people are determined to dodge the question of who is a better player by resorting to comparing team accomplishments as though it were the exact same thing.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I never understood why LeBron had to win at least 7 titles. Bill Russell was voted the greatest player of all-time at the 35th anniversary in 1980. He has 11 titles.
> 
> Did Jordan have to win 12 to eclipse him? No. Arguments can be made for and against Jordan over Russell.
> 
> It is completely arbitrary to say a player has to match another great players accomplishments to surpass him. It can be done with any great. Jordan has score 38k points to surpass Kareem as the greatest. Or 6 MVP's. Or average the numbers that Wilt did. This is a fruitless way to compare players.


I certainly don't think Lebron has to win 7, but I would say he has to win at least 3 to be considered the greatest ever. 

I think pretty much anyone can agree that just one won't cut it.


----------



## Luke

I agree with that. It's not really a number counting game but he's the best player in the world and has the personnel available, he needs to bring home multiple championships. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Jamel Irief said:


> I certainly don't think Lebron has to win 7, but I would say he has to win at least 3 to be considered the greatest ever.
> 
> I think pretty much anyone can agree that just one won't cut it.


thing.

Championships won is one thing.
But what does Lebron James has to do get recognition as Wilt's pair or superior?


----------



## Luke

Well if you want to play the numbers game like I usually try not to, he's already better if we're speaking about advanced stats and metrics.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



PauloCatarino said:


> thing.
> 
> Championships won is one thing.
> But what does Lebron James has to do get recognition as Wilt's pair or superior?


Average 48.5 minutes a season, 50 points a season, lead the league in assists for a season, have rules changed to stop his domination, break or set 60 records, never foul out of a game, I could go on. Lebron will never touch Wilt no NBA player has come close.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

He only needs one more ring to catch Wilt. Aren't you paying attention? Anyone who talks about Wilt's raw numbers and relates them directly to the modern NBA game is begging to get hammered on. No one here is dumb enough to not understand the difference between the numbers put up in that era and the ones which are possible in today's game. 

How many points would Lebron average if he took as many field goal attempts and free throws as Wilt did?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> Average 48.5 minutes a season, 50 points a season, lead the league in assists for a season, have rules changed to stop his domination, break or set 60 records, never foul out of a game, I could go on. Lebron will never touch Wilt no NBA player has come close.


Of course no one is going to ever touch what Wilt has done, he played in a different time period than everyone else. If Wilt played in today's game he would still be great, but his stats would be nothing like the stats he put up when he actually played.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Diable said:


> He only needs one more ring to catch Wilt. Aren't you paying attention? Anyone who talks about Wilt's raw numbers and relates them directly to the modern NBA game is begging to get hammered on. No one here is dumb enough to not understand the difference between the numbers put up in that era and the ones which are possible in today's game.
> 
> How many points would Lebron average if he took as many field goal attempts and free throws as Wilt did?


RINGS ARE A TEAM ACHIEVEMENT, how do people still not understand this? Wilt is a far superior scorer, defender, rebounder, etc. HOW IN THE FUK IS LEBRON BETTER AT ANY OF THESE?

Anyone who discredits Wilt's numbers and acts like they know about that era are begging to be educated.

With a slower paced game maybe he wouldn't get as many shots but with slacker defenses he could probably get more.

I think he could get close, of course this era will never run and gun like they did in the 60's, not Wilt's fault, but at 7'2" 300 pounds a 6'6" high jump and a 10.9 100 yard dash, along with a 400+ bench. He would ****ing destroy today, so era or not Wilt would own. 

I guess you would also discredit, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Jim Brown, etc. And Wilt did this with none of the pampering of today's athletes.

So please enlighten me on the era's, or I will help you save face so you don't look dumb. Just call me an idiot, you can escape talking about a point you know nothing about and it won't look like you buckled.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Did you know that Lebron has a higher career average per 36 minute than Wilt does, without going into the issue of the pace of the game being 20% higher during his career.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Diable said:


> Did you know that Lebron has a higher career average per 36 minute than Wilt does, without going into the issue of the pace of the game being 20% higher during his career.


Big whoop, Lebron is still playing let's see where it is when his career is over. Wilt stopped being a scorer and began being a defensive anchor in 67 and he still averages more in a career.

I am sure if you took Wilt's first 9 seasons his per 36 would crush Lebrons, even with pace adjusted. Care to go into rebounding or defense or how Wilt led the league in assists? 

Of course Lebron is good but unless he stays at this level for the next 5 years with 0 drop off will he even come close to Wilt. 

Wilt would regularly destroy the best defensive player ever - Bill Russell. I can go on and on and on.

And I love how you claim that I can't compare Wilt's numbers to today's then you go and try to do it. 

Last chance just bow out gracefully man, this could get ugly.


----------



## Norberto

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*


----------



## Floods

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> Big whoop, Lebron is still playing let's see where it is when his career is over. Wilt stopped being a scorer and began being a defensive anchor in 67 and he still averages more in a career.
> 
> I am sure if you took Wilt's first 9 seasons his per 36 would crush Lebrons, even with pace adjusted. Care to go into rebounding or defense or how Wilt led the league in assists?
> 
> Of course Lebron is good but unless he stays at this level for the next 5 years with 0 drop off will he even come close to Wilt.
> 
> Wilt would regularly destroy the best defensive player ever - Bill Russell. I can go on and on and on.
> 
> And I love how you claim that I can't compare Wilt's numbers to today's then you go and try to do it.
> 
> Last chance just bow out gracefully man, this could get ugly.


Seriously, shut up. Diable just blew you out of the water with his last post. I don't know how you even have the gall to tell him to 'bow out' after that.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Luke said:


> Well if you want to play the numbers game like I usually try not to, he's already better if we're speaking about advanced stats and metrics.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


I would guess that this is only true if you include the declining years of MJs career.

(edit to add... even if you take Jordan's entire career he has a better PER, so I guess it depends on what advanced stats you're talking about)


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> Big whoop, Lebron is still playing let's see where it is when his career is over. Wilt stopped being a scorer and began being a defensive anchor in 67 and he still averages more in a career.
> 
> I am sure if you took Wilt's first 9 seasons his per 36 would crush Lebrons, even with pace adjusted. Care to go into rebounding or defense or how Wilt led the league in assists?
> 
> Of course Lebron is good but unless he stays at this level for the next 5 years with 0 drop off will he even come close to Wilt.
> 
> Wilt would regularly destroy the best defensive player ever - Bill Russell. I can go on and on and on.
> 
> And I love how you claim that I can't compare Wilt's numbers to today's then you go and try to do it.
> 
> Last chance just bow out gracefully man, this could get ugly.


Go ahead, make an argument. You've not done it yet. You're stating your opinion and nothing else. I could care less if you think Wilt is the GOAT, because he's not. In fact he's no higher than third after MJ and Magic. That's pretty much a fact given the fact that Wilt really only one title during his prime. His second title came as probably a third banana (He was the fourth leading scorer on that team wasn't he?). You don't have to 11 rings like Bill Russell won while Wilt was doing all this shit, but you sure as hell can't have one as the Man and one as some guy.


----------



## Krstic All-Star

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Wilt did all he did in spite of the league changing/adding rules on a regular basis designed to stop him. He also was the catalyst for significant changes in how big men were scouted and drafted. People forget that a key reason centers weren't normally his size when he started playing was due to the fact that Bill Russell and a few others had revolutionized the position so that agility was more prized. Plodders, of the George Mikan mold, simply couldn't keep up with Russell. Then came Wilt, who had all the agility and speed you could ask for, AND was seven feet tall. By the end of his career, seven footers abounded in the league. 

Today the rules are far looser, and overtly favor superstars. LeBron and numerous other NBA players can take three or four steps after dribbling and nobody bats an eye, to give the example that irritates me the most. Now a similar argument could be made for Jordan, who was given an extra step (moreso than the third step already granted to guys like Dr J), except I'd argue that Jordan faced significant and varied schematic challenges and was not necessarily a primary beneficiary of rule changes. [In fact, hand-checking never made much of a difference against him, but when it was banned a lot of smaller and quicker players were able to function much better offensively]

If it's not clear by now, I consider Wilt to be the GOAT, with MJ a close second and LeBron out of the top five. And I don't see him breaking through to pass Magic, Kareem or Bill Russell barring some ridiculous development in his game.

EDIT: It's worth pointing out that Wilt led the league in rebounding his last three seasons, and in his last season - by which point his knee was balky to the point where his athletic advantage was significantly reduced, he finished third in the league in both offensive and defensive win shares, second in win shares and second in win shares per 48 minutes.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Diable said:


> He only needs one more ring to catch Wilt. Aren't you paying attention? Anyone who talks about Wilt's raw numbers and relates them directly to the modern NBA game is begging to get hammered on. No one here is dumb enough to not understand the difference between the numbers put up in that era and the ones which are possible in today's game.
> 
> How many points would Lebron average if he took as many field goal attempts and free throws as Wilt did?


Huh, did you check out Wilt's stats *against his competition/era*? 
Did any other player in history have that kind of *impact*?

Wilt once led the league in rebounds and *assists*. A Center. A freaking Center. Playing in the era of guys like Oscar and Lenny Wilkens.

I get the "pace" argument. 
YOU don't seem to grasp the fact that Wilt, in his day (that coincided (sp?) with another arguable GOAT player), was by far superior to his peers.
And i'm not even gonna adress the fact (like others have) that Wilt was so great that the NBA HAD TO CHANGE THE RULES OF THE GAME to try to make things more "fair" to all the others...


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



PauloCatarino said:


> Huh, did you check out Wilt's stats *against his competition/era*?
> Did any other player in history have that kind of *impact*?
> 
> Wilt once led the league in rebounds and *assists*. A Center. A freaking Center. Playing in the era of guys like Oscar and Lenny Wilkens.
> 
> I get the "pace" argument.
> YOU don't seem to grasp the fact that Wilt, in his day (that coincided (sp?) with another arguable GOAT player), was by far superior to his peers.
> And i'm not even gonna adress the fact (like others have) that Wilt was so great that the NBA HAD TO CHANGE THE RULES OF THE GAME to try to make things more "fair" to all the others...


Far superior to his peers? He had maybe five or six seasons at the most where he was the man in the NBA, and this was only because there were no other people that could actually guard the man besides Russell. He was athletic, he was a gifted talent. He was an incredible defender. But don't overrate his competition here, or his abilities for that matter. He had one player in Bill Russell who had what it took to go head to head with Wilt Chamberlin. Everything else was easy pickings for him. And he certainly wasn't as dominate as you're currently giving him credit for. His FG% during his historical 50 point per game season was slightly above 50%. That's not very good for a center. And suddenly as his FG% went up, his points per game went down. He didn't get better, he just didn't shoot as much. 

And when his dominance stopped, he ended up being the second or third or even the fourth caddy on a team. Michael Jordan played alongside arguably the greatest small forward to have ever played the game, and at no point was Jordan ever considered the second man (unless you count Chuck Daily's statement). You can point out all the rule changes that Wilt caused the NBA to make and what not, it still doesn't change the fact that right now, Lebron has been a much better scorer and all around player than Wilt has (well...okay I can't say that about him defensively). I don't care what the stats say.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Far superior to his peers? He had maybe five or six seasons at the most where he was the man in the NBA, and this was only because there were no other people that could actually guard the man besides Russell. He was athletic, he was a gifted talent. He was an incredible defender. But don't overrate his competition here, or his abilities for that matter. He had one player in Bill Russell who had what it took to go head to head with Wilt Chamberlin. Everything else was easy pickings for him. And he certainly wasn't as dominate as you're currently giving him credit for. His FG% during his historical 50 point per game season was slightly above 50%. That's not very good for a center. And suddenly as his FG% went up, his points per game went down. He didn't get better, he just didn't shoot as much.
> 
> *And when his dominance stopped, he ended up being the second or third or even the fourth caddy on a team*. Michael Jordan played alongside arguably the greatest small forward to have ever played the game, and at no point was Jordan ever considered the second man (unless you count Chuck Daily's statement). You can point out all the rule changes that Wilt caused the NBA to make and what not, it still doesn't change the fact that right now, Lebron has been a much better scorer and all around player than Wilt has (well...okay I can't say that about him defensively). I don't care what the stats say.


Wilt Chamberlain, age 35, was a League Finals MVP.

Don't waste my ****ing time, man!


----------



## Nimreitz

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Jordan sucked on the Wizards, man. People seriously arguing that his greatness was timeless? Just heard 'Toine talking about how much he dominated Mike when he was playing for the Wiz and how Jalen Rose was on track for putting up a 50 spot on him before getting ejected and how he still thinks about how he would have dropped 50 on MJ.

Anyway, Bron is a better player. MJ benefits from being THE star when mass media took off. Titles are great, but he's not the greatest winner or the fiercest competitor (that is Russell), he's not the greatest defender, he's not the greatest scorer, and he's definitely not the best at anything else.

You can't put a ton of stock into titles anyway, because as has been said over and over again Jordan didn't have any peers. LeBron has Kobe and Durant. Magic had Bird. Etc.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



PauloCatarino said:


> Wilt Chamberlain, age 35, was a League Finals MVP.
> 
> Don't waste my ****ing time, man!


Oh you mean in the finals series where he played against an injury plauged Knicks and alongside West and Goodrich, who both had bad shooting nights in the first two games? There's a reason Chamberlin was the third leading scorer on his team in that series. The only reason he got the finals mvp was because of his rebounding. That's it. Don't waste my time.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I can't judge any of that because none of it is on TV. They were playing in airplane hangers back then. From what I've seen, Jordan was more exciting to watch than Lebron. That's what makes him the GOAT. When you watched the bulls play, you knew Jordan was going to be great.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

The same can't be said about LeBron?


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Nimreitz said:


> Jordan sucked on the Wizards, man. People seriously arguing that his greatness was timeless? Just heard 'Toine talking about how much he dominated Mike when he was playing for the Wiz and how Jalen Rose was on track for putting up a 50 spot on him before getting ejected and how he still thinks about how he would have dropped 50 on MJ.
> 
> Anyway, Bron is a better player. MJ benefits from being THE star when mass media took off. Titles are great, but he's not the greatest winner or the fiercest competitor (that is Russell), he's not the greatest defender, he's not the greatest scorer, and he's definitely not the best at anything else.
> 
> You can't put a ton of stock into titles anyway, because as has been said over and over again Jordan didn't have any peers. LeBron has Kobe and Durant. Magic had Bird. Etc.


Just looking at the game logs, that Jalen Rose shit isn't true.

I disagree with everything you said, but I'm too lazy to argue.


----------



## Nimreitz

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Dornado said:


> Just looking at the game logs, that Jalen Rose shit isn't true.
> 
> I disagree with everything you said, but I'm too lazy to argue.


Toine may have messed up some of the details, but

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/200112270IND.html

recap

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=211227011

Jalen dropped 15 in the first quarter and had 26 with about 20 minutes left, but Jordan went out and the Pacers were up big.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Nimreitz said:


> Toine may have messed up some of the details, but
> 
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/200112270IND.html
> 
> recap
> 
> http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=211227011
> 
> Jalen dropped 15 in the first quarter and had 26 with about 20 minutes left, but Jordan went out and the Pacers were up big.


26 points in 30 minutes is not anywhere near being on pace for 50 points... even if he played all 48 minutes he would have barely cracked 40. Antoine Walker's memory may not be the best source.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Jace said:


> The same can't be said about LeBron?


Jordan was a must watch event. Lebron isn't that much of a draw.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Floods said:


> Seriously, shut up. Diable just blew you out of the water with his last post. I don't know how you even have the gall to tell him to 'bow out' after that.


Do you know how to read? Damn how do I block you? You are basically doing the equivalent of covering your ears and going blah blah blah blah.



Diable said:


> Go ahead, make an argument. You've not done it yet. *You're stating your opinion* and nothing else. I could care less if you think Wilt is the GOAT, *because he's not. In fact he's no higher than third after MJ and Magic. That's pretty much a fact given the fact* that Wilt really only one title during his prime. His second title came as probably a third banana (He was the fourth leading scorer on that team wasn't he?). You don't have to 11 rings like Bill Russell won while Wilt was doing all this shit, but you sure as hell can't have one as the Man and one as some guy.


:cosby: 

Wow once again the rings argument. I would be quiet if I was you, or you are going to prove to everybody how little you know about basketball. I can tell just from reading your post that you had to google what team Wilt was on and who else he played with.

I'm serious you are showing this board how dumb you are. Save some credibility. Anywho I am going to stop before you cry cyber bullying with how I am proving you know nothing of the NBA before Lebron.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

What? Are you going to make an argument or not? What the hell is that? Lameness is not a sound tactic.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> Do you know how to read? Damn how do I block you? You are basically doing the equivalent of covering your ears and going blah blah blah blah.
> 
> 
> 
> :cosby:
> 
> Wow once again the rings argument. I would be quiet if I was you, or you are going to prove to everybody how little you know about basketball. I can tell just from reading your post that you had to google what team Wilt was on and who else he played with.
> 
> I'm serious you are showing this board how dumb you are. Save some credibility. Anywho I am going to stop before you cry cyber bullying with how I am proving you know nothing of the NBA before Lebron.


You're trying to argue that Wilt Chamberlin is the GOAT. The only one showing how dumb they are here is you. You're trying to use stats that happened in a quicker paced game of basketball to prove that Wilt is better than a guy, that when measured up to those standards of the pace of which he played, not only has better stats, but also has a much bigger impact on the floor. When that fact was thrown right at your face, you deliberately ignored it and didn't even bother responding to it or attempting to make any sort of argument that would prove him wrong.

Now yes, the ring argument is stupid, but only in valid circumstances. In the case of Michael Jordan vs Lebron James, or even Kobe vs Lebron for that matter, it's stupid to use because Michael Jordan was on a legendary team with another hall of fame player (two potentially), one or two other all stars and numerous useful role players, while Lebron was on a decent team at best and was literally carrying the load through out his entire adventure with Cleveland. 

But with this, the ring argument is logical. You claim that Wilt is the greatest of all time, and yet despite having legends like Jerry West, Goodrich, and Baylor on his team, could only muster out two rings. Now, it would be stupid to mention it IF and only if Wilt played like a boss in those playoffs/finals that he lost in, but here's the thing, on most of those occasions, he didn't. So the ring argument makes sense here. 

I strongly suggest you learn a thing or two about basketball before you make anymore statements like this. You don't want to be on the other end of a Diable debate, he will rip you to shreds. Save yourself the embarrassment before it's too late.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Diable said:


> What? Are you going to make an argument or not? What the hell is that? Lameness is not a sound tactic.


...damn it Diable.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Diable said:


> What? Are you going to make an argument or not? What the hell is that? Lameness is not a sound tactic.


I have, please go back and reread. I told you Wilt is a better scorer to which you replied per 36 and I said wait till Lebrons career is over and Wilts first 9 seasons are higher. He is the best rebounder and better defender as well as led the league in assists. Has set/broken over 60 records.

Whats your case?



XxIrvingxX said:


> You're trying to argue that Wilt Chamberlin is the GOAT. The only one showing how dumb they are here is you. You're trying to use stats that happened in a quicker paced game of basketball to prove that Wilt is better than a guy, that when measured up to those standards of the pace of which he played, not only has better stats, but also has a much bigger impact on the floor. When that fact was thrown right at your face, you deliberately ignored it and didn't even bother responding to it or attempting to make any sort of argument that would prove him wrong.
> 
> Now yes, the ring argument is stupid, but only in valid circumstances. In the case of Michael Jordan vs Lebron James, or even Kobe vs Lebron for that matter, it's stupid to use because Michael Jordan was on a legendary team with another hall of fame player (two potentially), one or two other all stars and numerous useful role players, while Lebron was on a decent team at best and was literally carrying the load through out his entire adventure with Cleveland.
> 
> But with this, the ring argument is logical. You claim that Wilt is the greatest of all time, and yet despite having legends like Jerry West, Goodrich, and Baylor on his team, could only muster out two rings. Now, it would be stupid to mention it IF and only if Wilt played like a boss in those playoffs/finals that he lost in, but here's the thing, on most of those occasions, he didn't. So the ring argument makes sense here.
> 
> I strongly suggest you learn a thing or two about basketball before you make anymore statements like this. You don't want to be on the other end of a Diable debate, he will rip you to shreds. Save yourself the embarrassment before it's too late.


I did not ignore PER I said that Lebrons PER is current lets wait till his career is over and Wilts first 9 seasons of PER 36 kill Lebrons.

Rings are never a logical thing to talk about when we are talking about who is the better individual player.

How has Diable done anything to me? He has actually evaded my points and just regurgitated what Wikipedia said. 

You also just wiki'd stuff otherwise you'd know Baylor and Wilt were imjured and missed at least a season and then in 72 Baylor retired. This was when they all were 33+ years old and on the downslide of their peaks. On top of that they still made the finals 4 times winning it once.

I would advise both of you to put aside your annoyance at me and look at Wilt face value. Go read books go find old tape. Once you do get back to me, till then I just can't take your arguments seriously.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Dwyane Wade is a better player than Scottie Pippen. From the moment he was drafted up to this point in his career. Anyone saying otherwise is straight bull shitting you. And clearly didn't watch Pippens career. Pippen never had the sack of D Wade. And Pippen's game evolved because of the mentorship of Michael Jeffery Jordan.

So I guess all you guys who are overrating Pippen should also be giving the credit that Jordan makes his teammates better than anybody including LeBron James, after all by reading through this thread, everyone sucks that LeBron has played with, and Pippen is the bomb, but Wade .. Bosh,, all those guys on Cleveland well they sucked, guess Bron isn't so great at making his teammates better like everyone says. So all I gotta say is, stop tricking punks, your game is up, and let history be the teacher, and let James career wind down. 

Put me on the record, not only will LeBron fall short of the greatest ever in MJ, but LeBron will not surprass Kobe Bryant either.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

He's already surpassesed Kobe if we're going by peak performance. Pippen may not be better than Wade, but he's a better fit next to Jordan than Wade is to LeBron.



Hyperion said:


> Jordan was a must watch event. Lebron isn't that much of a draw.


What? Where are you getting this from? Your own opinion? Because I've never seen anyone share it. I'm leaning toward you being sarcastic, actually. I can't remember the exact figures or where the article was, but it showed LeBron was the centerpiece of 8 of the 10 highest-rated NBA games since Jordan retired.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Jace said:


> He's already surpassesed Kobe if we're going by peak performance. Pippen may not be better than Wade, but he's a better fit next to Jordan than Wade is to LeBron.
> 
> 
> 
> What? Where are you getting this from? Your own opinion? Because I've never seen anyone share it. I'm leaning toward you being sarcastic, actually. I can't remember the exact figures or where the article was, but it showed LeBron was the centerpiece of 8 of the 10 highest-rated NBA games since Jordan retired.


He's surpassed Kobe, hardly. I don't consider what LeBron has done anywhere near as impressive as what Kobe did during the time period he won five championships. If you wanna jerk off to LeBrons stats, than jerk off to the greatest statistical monster ever to hit the court in Wilt Chamberlain. 

Pippen isn't nearly as great as D Wade, and it's not even a debate. I can tell the folks that didn't watch how bad Pippen was in his early years in the league, especially compared to the player that D Wade was coming into the league. Not only that but Pippen was a shell of his former self with the Blazers and Rockets, in his later years, in comparison to D Wade now, So Wade is kicking ass and taking names. It's not close. Wade > Pippen . 

Also you're going to try and grind that axe that Pippen was more suited for Jordan ? Than Wade was suited for James ? No I wont accept that. Not when James, Wade, and Bosh concocted the entire super team to try and benefit their careers. Jordan had to mold Pippens punk ass to be the player he was, the end. Mike > the rest.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Wade's already a shell of his former self and has been for years.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



E.H. Munro said:


> Wade's already a shell of his former self and has been for years.


Wades early career > Pippens early career 

Wades prime > Pippens prime 

Wades shell > Pippens shell 

case closed.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Except that Wade's "early career" ended his second season and his prime was over by his fifth. He's been in decline for three years and has large stretches of 37 year old Scottie Pippen ball these days, and has been like this since age 29. So please stop with the Dwyane Wade Superstar! nonsense because pretty much every NBA team plays the Heat to _encourage_ Wade to shoot because it's better than the alternatives.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Yes. We've established that Wade is the better player.

EH, not sure the gameplan is to encourage a 50+% superstar to shoot. Maybe you meant perimeter shots? Also not sure how Wade's prime was over after his 5th season when his 6th season was 30/5/8 on 50% shooting, but sure. He had two more peak performance seasons after that (maybe not by the numbers, but by the look test).



23AJ said:


> He's surpassed Kobe, hardly. I don't consider what LeBron has done anywhere near as impressive as what Kobe did during the time period he won five championships. If you wanna jerk off to LeBrons stats, than jerk off to the greatest statistical monster ever to hit the court in Wilt Chamberlain.
> 
> Pippen isn't nearly as great as D Wade, and it's not even a debate. I can tell the folks that didn't watch how bad Pippen was in his early years in the league, especially compared to the player that D Wade was coming into the league. Not only that but Pippen was a shell of his former self with the Blazers and Rockets, in his later years, in comparison to D Wade now, So Wade is kicking ass and taking names. It's not close. Wade > Pippen .
> 
> Also you're going to try and grind that axe that Pippen was more suited for Jordan ? Than Wade was suited for James ? No I wont accept that. Not when James, Wade, and Bosh concocted the entire super team to try and benefit their careers. Jordan had to mold Pippens punk ass to be the player he was, the end. Mike > the rest.


So much wrong stuff here to respond to, so I'll have to be selective:

So Wade fits LeBron's game better than Pippen's fit Jordan's because LeBron and Wade chose to play together? You see the err in your logic? I never said Pippen was close to being as good as Wade, but his skillset fits next to Jordan's better than Wade's to LeBron's. That's clear as day. Don't know how I can help you if you don't see it. No axe grinding here. I've got beefs with no one. I don't get what old, post-Bulls Pippen has to do with any of this, or how long it took for Pippen to develop into a good player.

That's fine if you consider Kobe's play while winning his 5 championships more impressive, but you have nothing factual to back it up. Until you do, it's just your unfounded opinion.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Jace said:


> EH, not sure the gameplan is to encourage a 50+% superstar to shoot. Maybe you meant perimeter shots? Also not sure how Wade's prime was over after his 5th season when his 6th season was 30/5/8 on 50% shooting, but sure. He had two more peak performance seasons after that (maybe not by the numbers, but by the look test).


I was going from memory, I was off by a year. And he's dropped quickly since. And, yes, opponents put Wade in single coverage in hopes that he'll start firing up shots because it's easier for them than if James or Bosh is taking them. Letting James take over a game means that you've lost. When Wade attempts to take the game over you can win.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I just knew this thread would still be going when I peaked out here. This shits like homosexual S&M right now.


----------



## Ronny

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I won't say LBJ is in comparison with MJ yet . The Chicago Bulls legend aint still comparable with LBJ . Lebron is a good player , and has got to show us what they got in the the match vs us bulls .


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Oh you mean in the finals series where he played against an injury plauged Knicks and alongside West and Goodrich, who both had bad shooting nights in the first two games? There's a reason Chamberlin was the third leading scorer on his team in that series. The only reason he got the finals mvp was because of his rebounding. That's it. Don't waste my time.


Just 3 things:

- Reed wasn't there, but Frazier, Lucas, Dave D, Bradley and Monroe played. All future champions (the following year). All (IIRC) HOFers.

- Wilt was the SECOND leading scorer in the Finals, at 20.6.ppg. At age 35.

- Isn't the 1971-72 Lakers recognized as one of (if not THE) greatest teams ever?

So, let's recap: following your logic, Wilt Chamberlain was so great, so dominant, that even when he was the *fourth best player *in an all-Time great team he was still their Most Valuable Player in the Finals. At age 35 and a year from retirenment (sp?).

Yup, that's GOAT right there.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> I did not ignore PER I said that Lebrons PER is current lets wait till his career is over and Wilts first 9 seasons of PER 36 kill Lebrons.


And you think that will prove anything? Lebron was 18 years old when he first started out in the NBA. 18 years. How old was Wilt Chamberlin? And what kind of talent did Wilt go up against in comparison to Lebron? I'll let you think about that one.

And above all of that, Lebron is just nearing his prime and at the moment, this is the best basketball anyone has ever played in the history of the NBA. His PER is 32.6, which beats Wilt Chamberlin's record of 31.8. And again, this is a guy who is not trying to score like crazy like Wilt does when he was averaging 50 points per game on 50% shooting.



The Big Dipper said:


> Rings are never a logical thing to talk about when we are talking about who is the better individual player.


Do you have any idea how to properly debate? Where is your argument here? This is exactly what Diable is talking about. All you're doing here is giving me your opinion. You aren't giving me any reason to believe that what you're saying is true. You're just telling me what you think and that's it. You need more than that, otherwise I can't take anything you say seriously. You're just coming off as being biased and that's it.

Here's an example of what you should do in an argument. Winning a championship is the goal of any NBA player. If you can't perform like a star in the moment when your team needs to, especially when you have all the help in the world that you could need, rings are definitely a logical thing to bring up. It's about the situation that matters.

See that? That's called giving a shit. And making a decent argument. Now you try.



The Big Dipper said:


> How has Diable done anything to me? He has actually evaded my points and just regurgitated what Wikipedia said.


...did you even read what he said?



The Big Dipper said:


> You also just wiki'd stuff otherwise you'd know Baylor and Wilt were imjured and missed at least a season and then in 72 Baylor retired. This was when they all were 33+ years old and on the downslide of their peaks. On top of that they still made the finals 4 times winning it once.


If I had wikipedia'd that then I would've known that Baylor and Wilt were injured. How do I know this? Because I just got done looking at it after seeing this statement. Before I knew about Baylor's injury but not Wilt's. (and I already knew Baylor retired in 72. He wasn't on the team that Wilt was the Finals MVP in). So please, explain to me why I shouldn't believe that you're the one who is using wikipedia here?

And regardless, that doesn't matter because 1. The Celtics teams that they faced were also shells of their former selves, 2. The Knicks team that they beat one year and then lost to the next (or is that the other way around? I forget) were going through injury issues, and 3. Age doesn't matter if you're the GOAT. How do I know this? Michael Jordan won three titles while he was out of his prime. Kobe Bryant is what, 35 now? And right now he's having one of the best offensive seasons of his career. Poor excuse dude, very poor excuse. 



The Big Dipper said:


> I would advise both of you to put aside your annoyance at me and look at Wilt face value. Go read books go find old tape. Once you do get back to me, till then I just can't take your arguments seriously.


I advise you to do some research on the game of basketball because it's clearly obvious you have no idea how the game is played, or what makes a player great for that matter. You can talk all you want about the stats that Wilt Chamberlin had when he was around in a era where he was taller than everyone else and was more athletically gifted and stronger, and the pace of the game was so fast that he was able to put up stats like this, but when you want to make statements like "no one will ever be able to do what Wilt did" as a way of saying he's the greatest, I just laugh at your idiotic statement and at the same time share a sense of disbelief at how anyone could think that would be a logical reason. Michael Jordan stormed through the NBA and became what he was because of how good he was, not because of how tall he was or how gifted he was athletically, but because he was an incredible basketball player and he was the best one out there. Right now that's the case with Lebron. And anyone who knows anything at all knows that Wilt was dominant because of the incredible strength, athleticism and height that he had at the time. And if you want to argue it was because of his skills, feel free to explain the below 50% FG percentage from his rookie year (which is horrible for a center by the way). 

Oh and learn how to properly debate. You really suck at it.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> And you think that will prove anything? Lebron was 18 years old when he first started out in the NBA. 18 years. How old was Wilt Chamberlin? And what kind of talent did Wilt go up against in comparison to Lebron? I'll let you think about that one.


I bring it up because Wilt's numbers are for an entire career, including his rookie years and his twilight years.

Lebron has no twilight numbers yet to bring his stats down. SO to compare apples to apples I have asked for you guys to compare lebrons first 9 years to Wilt's. Seems fair to me, does it to you? 

I will name 5 centers Wilt faced in his career and keep in mind he played these people 7-10 times a season not 2-3 like today. Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Russell, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, and Willis Reed. On top of that he was constantly double and triple teamed.

Okay now name your 5.



XxIrvingxX said:


> And above all of that, Lebron is just nearing his prime and at the moment, this is the best basketball anyone has ever played in the history of the NBA. His PER is 32.6, which beats Wilt Chamberlin's record of 31.8. And again, this is a guy who is not trying to score like crazy like Wilt does when he was averaging 50 points per game on 50% shooting.


PER is not accurate when it does not count all of Wilt's blocks and again if those PER numbers are for a career I would like to See Wilt's first 9 seasons to properly compare them. Wilt per reports was averaging like 3-5 blocks a game so I am sure his PER would be higher if they had those stats. Once again this is for an entire career.





XxIrvingxX said:


> Do you have any idea how to properly debate? Where is your argument here? This is exactly what Diable is talking about. All you're doing here is giving me your opinion. You aren't giving me any reason to believe that what you're saying is true. You're just telling me what you think and that's it. You need more than that, otherwise I can't take anything you say seriously. You're just coming off as being biased and that's it.


My goal isn't to see who is a better debater my goal is to show using stats, stats that you love to use except if it helps show how good Wilt was. It seems stats are what you base who is better off of, unless I use them to show what Wilt has done, then all of a sudden stats are meaningless. 

I don't need more than that, I can tell you are one of those guys who loves to argue for the sake of arguing, this isn't debate class this is an NBA forum. And even with my "poor debate etiquette" I am still showing you how Wilt is better. He is the better scorer and even if I gave Lebron better scorer, which he isn't. Wilt is the far superior defender, rebounder and individual player.



XxIrvingxX said:


> Here's an example of what you should do in an argument. Winning a championship is the goal of any NBA player. If you can't perform like a star in the moment when your team needs to, especially when you have all the help in the world that you could need, rings are definitely a logical thing to bring up. It's about the situation that matters.
> 
> See that? That's called giving a shit. And making a decent argument. Now you try.
> 
> 
> 
> ...did you even read what he said?


The goal of every NBA player is to win a championship but they need a team to do it. Otherwise guys who are super good, Lebron, Kobe, Durant etc would just do it by themselves.

Go tell Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Miller, Ewing, etc that they didn't have the star power to carry 4 other men to a championship.

I think you know their teams just weren't up for it. Other better teams beat them.

I think you are a little to fixated on having an arguement and a debate and a thesis anti-thesis synthesis debate blah blah bullshit you refuse to look at what is in front of you. You just want to argue, I don't have the stamina try talking to JBKB he loves to spin peoples wheels on debates and arguements I am sure he will give you the high you seek.





XxIrvingxX said:


> If I had wikipedia'd that then I would've known that Baylor and Wilt were injured. How do I know this? Because I just got done looking at it after seeing this statement. Before I knew about Baylor's injury but not Wilt's. (and I already knew Baylor retired in 72. He wasn't on the team that Wilt was the Finals MVP in). So please, explain to me why I shouldn't believe that you're the one who is using wikipedia here?


Naw I got memory and for reference I flip through 2 Wilt books I own as well as 4 other books about Bill Russel and the 60's and 70's of basketball.



XxIrvingxX said:


> And regardless, that doesn't matter because 1. The Celtics teams that they faced were also shells of their former selves, 2. The Knicks team that they beat one year and then lost to the next (or is that the other way around? I forget) were going through injury issues, and 3. Age doesn't matter if you're the GOAT. How do I know this? Michael Jordan won three titles while he was out of his prime. Kobe Bryant is what, 35 now? And right now he's having one of the best offensive seasons of his career. Poor excuse dude, very poor excuse.


Once again this is a team arguement, I won't deny that the Lakers should have won but Wilt was not the problem. He was actually forced to sit out the end of game 7.

Wilt still won a finals MVP at 35 so I guess you are right age doesn't matter if you are the GOAT.





XxIrvingxX said:


> I advise you to do some research on the game of basketball because it's clearly obvious you have no idea how the game is played, or what makes a player great for that matter. You can talk all you want about the stats that Wilt Chamberlin had when he was around in a era where he was taller than everyone else and was more athletically gifted and stronger, and the pace of the game was so fast that he was able to put up stats like this, but when you want to make statements like "no one will ever be able to do what Wilt did" as a way of saying he's the greatest, I just laugh at your idiotic statement and at the same time share a sense of disbelief at how anyone could think that would be a logical reason. Michael Jordan stormed through the NBA and became what he was because of how good he was, not because of how tall he was or how gifted he was athletically, but because he was an incredible basketball player and he was the best one out there. Right now that's the case with Lebron. And anyone who knows anything at all knows that Wilt was dominant because of the incredible strength, athleticism and height that he had at the time. And if you want to argue it was because of his skills, feel free to explain the below 50% FG percentage from his rookie year (which is horrible for a center by the way).
> 
> Oh and learn how to properly debate. You really suck at it.


My goal isn't to try and one up you as a master debator, I know you pride yourself on that but not even you can make an honest persuasive claim as to how Lebron is better. Please make one, if it is even 51% valid I will delete my account. You know why I wager that? Because you can't. He is not!

Wilt was too fast too strong to quick etc and he would still be that way in the game today, don't hate on the man because he is too good. 

I'll wait for your Lebron claim if you just bring up more debate knit picking I will assume you got nothing and will move on with my life.


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> And you think that will prove anything? Lebron was 18 years old when he first started out in the NBA. 18 years. How old was Wilt Chamberlin? And what kind of talent did Wilt go up against in comparison to Lebron? I'll let you think about that one.
> 
> And above all of that, Lebron is just nearing his prime and at the moment, this is the best basketball anyone has ever played in the history of the NBA. His PER is 32.6, which beats Wilt Chamberlin's record of 31.8. And again, this is a guy who is not trying to score like crazy like Wilt does when he was averaging 50 points per game on 50% shooting.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any idea how to properly debate? Where is your argument here? This is exactly what Diable is talking about. All you're doing here is giving me your opinion. You aren't giving me any reason to believe that what you're saying is true. You're just telling me what you think and that's it. You need more than that, otherwise I can't take anything you say seriously. You're just coming off as being biased and that's it.
> 
> Here's an example of what you should do in an argument. Winning a championship is the goal of any NBA player. If you can't perform like a star in the moment when your team needs to, especially when you have all the help in the world that you could need, rings are definitely a logical thing to bring up. It's about the situation that matters.
> 
> See that? That's called giving a shit. And making a decent argument. Now you try.
> 
> 
> 
> ...did you even read what he said?
> 
> 
> 
> If I had wikipedia'd that then I would've known that Baylor and Wilt were injured. How do I know this? Because I just got done looking at it after seeing this statement. Before I knew about Baylor's injury but not Wilt's. (and I already knew Baylor retired in 72. He wasn't on the team that Wilt was the Finals MVP in). So please, explain to me why I shouldn't believe that you're the one who is using wikipedia here?
> 
> And regardless, that doesn't matter because 1. The Celtics teams that they faced were also shells of their former selves, 2. The Knicks team that they beat one year and then lost to the next (or is that the other way around? I forget) were going through injury issues, and 3. Age doesn't matter if you're the GOAT. How do I know this? Michael Jordan won three titles while he was out of his prime. Kobe Bryant is what, 35 now? And right now he's having one of the best offensive seasons of his career. Poor excuse dude, very poor excuse.
> 
> 
> 
> I advise you to do some research on the game of basketball because it's clearly obvious you have no idea how the game is played, or what makes a player great for that matter. You can talk all you want about the stats that Wilt Chamberlin had when he was around in a era where he was taller than everyone else and was more athletically gifted and stronger, and the pace of the game was so fast that he was able to put up stats like this, but when you want to make statements like "no one will ever be able to do what Wilt did" as a way of saying he's the greatest, I just laugh at your idiotic statement and at the same time share a sense of disbelief at how anyone could think that would be a logical reason. Michael Jordan stormed through the NBA and became what he was because of how good he was, not because of how tall he was or how gifted he was athletically, but because he was an incredible basketball player and he was the best one out there. Right now that's the case with Lebron. And anyone who knows anything at all knows that Wilt was dominant because of the incredible strength, athleticism and height that he had at the time. And if you want to argue it was because of his skills, feel free to explain the below 50% FG percentage from his rookie year (which is horrible for a center by the way).
> 
> Oh and learn how to properly debate. You really suck at it.


You can't have it both ways. You can't discredit Wilt's numbers because the game was different and the pace they played at was much faster while at the same time saying him shooting 50% from the floor is "horrible for a center". You do realize Wilt was the first player _ever_ to shoot 50%, don't you? Percentages in the low to mid-40s regularly led the league until he came around.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



PauloCatarino said:


> Just 3 things:
> 
> - Reed wasn't there, but Frazier, Lucas, Dave D, Bradley and Monroe played. All future champions (the following year). All (IIRC) HOFers.
> 
> - Wilt was the SECOND leading scorer in the Finals, at 20.6.ppg. At age 35.
> 
> - Isn't the 1971-72 Lakers recognized as one of (if not THE) greatest teams ever?
> 
> So, let's recap: following your logic, Wilt Chamberlain was so great, so dominant, that even when he was the *fourth best player *in an all-Time great team he was still their Most Valuable Player in the Finals. At age 35 and a year from retirenment (sp?).
> 
> Yup, that's GOAT right there.


Oops didn't even see this post lol.

20.6 points per game? Um, you might want to get your facts straight there if you're referring to the finals series where he won the finals MVP award. He averaged 19.4 points per game, not 20.6. I don't know where you got those numbers from but you couldn't be more wrong. And even then those aren't impressive numbers. 

And again, the only reason Wilt won the award was because of his rebounding. That's it. Jerry and Goodrich both had bad starts to the series, had that not happened, one of them would have easily gotten the award.

And yes, all of those players are there. And they did end up being hall of famers. But I don't see why you're bringing that up. That doesn't deteriorate my point in anyway. Three of those players were guards, one was a 6 foot 8 PF/C, how would they have any affect at all when it comes to Chamberlin's (a guy who is 7 foot 2 and incredibly strong and athletic) ability to rebound the ball or score? Kind of a pointless detail to bring up there don't you think?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> I bring it up because Wilt's numbers are for an entire career, including his rookie years and his twilight years.
> 
> Lebron has no twilight numbers yet to bring his stats down. SO to compare apples to apples I have asked for you guys to compare lebrons first 9 years to Wilt's. Seems fair to me, does it to you?


Twilight years? Wilt had three dominant seasons at the start of his career, and then all of a sudden his stats just went down and never got better (except for the year he had the most assists in the NBA). 

And in some ways yes and in some ways it makes no sense at all. Again we're comparing inflated stats to today's stats, where things like blocks, steals, and turnovers are accounted into the PER. I honestly don't believe that Lebron's current PER being better than Wilt's career PER proves anything, but your lack of argument towards what Diable said regarding the PER is the reason I brought it up.



The Big Dipper said:


> I will name 5 centers Wilt faced in his career and keep in mind he played these people 7-10 times a season not 2-3 like today. Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Russell, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, and Willis Reed. On top of that he was constantly double and triple teamed.


:gay:

You're joking right? 

You are aware that this only helps prove my argument right? Apart from Russell, when all these guys showed up in the league, Wilt's stats weren't nearly what they were before. And then suddenly he was forced to pass more. I won't say Wilt was worse than these guys, again, Wilt is a top ten player, but for someone who's supposed to be the GOAT, he shouldn't have to change up the way he plays just because a couple more good players at his position came into the league.



The Big Dipper said:


> Okay now name your 5.


Do you want the five in reference to Michael Jordan? Or would you like the five in reference to Lebron?

No matter, I'll just do both. I guess I'll start first with Michael Jordan. Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Allen Iverson, and Alvin Robertson, who was one of the best defensive guards of all time and made life miserable for Michael Jordan at times.

I guess Lebron is next. Kevin Durant, Paul Pierce, Carmelo Anthony, Ron Artest (even in his Sacramento days he was still an incredibly efficient player and a monster on defense) and Danny Granger. (Shouldn't I name 10 out of fairness for Wilt since he played a lesser amount of teams than Lebron did? Also, could I name Power Forwards as well since that's another position Lebron usually plays?)





The Big Dipper said:


> PER is not accurate when it does not count all of Wilt's blocks and again if those PER numbers are for a career I would like to See Wilt's first 9 seasons to properly compare them. Wilt per reports was averaging like 3-5 blocks a game so I am sure his PER would be higher if they had those stats. Once again this is for an entire career.


Huh...so it looks like we agree on something. I'll give you this one.







The Big Dipper said:


> My goal isn't to see who is a better debater my goal is to show using stats, stats that you love to use except if it helps show how good Wilt was. It seems stats are what you base who is better off of, unless I use them to show what Wilt has done, then all of a sudden stats are meaningless.


Stats that I love to use? The only time I have mentioned Lebron's stats was when referring to his record breaking streak that he had recently. That's it. And even then, I only bring that up because of the impact that his play made for the Miami Heat when he was putting up numbers like this. Wilt clearly did not have the type of impact that Lebron James currently has when he's out there on the floor. I can't think of many players who did. 



The Big Dipper said:


> I don't need more than that, I can tell you are one of those guys who loves to argue for the sake of arguing, this isn't debate class this is an NBA forum. And even with my "poor debate etiquette" I am still showing you how Wilt is better. He is the better scorer and even if I gave Lebron better scorer, which he isn't. Wilt is the far superior defender, rebounder and individual player.


You aren't showing me how Wilt is better. You're just showing me what stats he put up. That doesn't prove anything, not when comparing stats from this time frame to the stats that are being put up in today's NBA game, where it is more skill oriented and much harder to score.

If by better scorer you mean guy who used his unfair advantage that he had over everyone else he played against to the fullest while also considering the fast pace of the game at the time, then yes, he is the better scorer. Otherwise no, Wilt is not the better scorer, and it isn't even close. It sounds like you truly believe that Wilt was this good because he had amazing basketball skills that no one else had. No. That is not the case. It never was the case. You need to start realizing that. He didn't have a dominant/creative post game where he could be anywhere close to the basket and just shoot from there and make it. He needed to be close, inside the basket or else there was nothing he could really do. If Lebron were around in that era, do you have any idea how high his stats would be? They would have been off the charts. Look I'm not saying Wilt wasn't good, you don't score 100 points in a game while being an average at best basketball player. The guy was great. But his basketball skills were great at best. Lebron James is a whole different story. 

And of course Wilt was the better rebounder...the guy is 7 foot 1, Lebron's 6 foot 8. Come on now. As for defender, I can't comment on that and neither can you. We don't have footage that shows us how good Wilt was on a daily basis on the other end of the floor. So when it comes to defense, leave that part out of this discussion. 





The Big Dipper said:


> The goal of every NBA player is to win a championship but they need a team to do it. Otherwise guys who are super good, Lebron, Kobe, Durant etc would just do it by themselves.


And yet despite having a legendary team, Wilt could only do it twice. And hell, Lebron almost did do it by himself, he led a team with ****ing Drew Gooden as the second best player to the NBA finals. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Go tell Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Miller, Ewing, etc that they didn't have the star power to carry 4 other men to a championship. I think you know their teams just weren't up for it. Other better teams beat them.


I'm sorry but how is this helping your argument? In the two occasions that Wilt lost to in the NBA finals, these were two teams that were supposed to be worse than the team Wilt was on. And in both of these instances, Wilt just disappeared. And don't even get me started with the playoffs. 





The Big Dipper said:


> I think you are a little to fixated on having an arguement and a debate and a thesis anti-thesis synthesis debate blah blah bullshit you refuse to look at what is in front of you. You just want to argue, I don't have the stamina try talking to JBKB he loves to spin peoples wheels on debates and arguements I am sure he will give you the high you seek.


I'll admit, I love debating. It's fun. But that's not why I'm doing this. I'm doing this because you literally could not be more wrong. And so here we are. But if you want to throw out irrelevant opinions regarding me, by all means go ahead. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Once again this is a team arguement, I won't deny that the Lakers should have won but Wilt was not the problem. He was actually forced to sit out the end of game 7.


So who's fault was it? It couldn't have been Jerry West's, considering how he was the finals MVP of that series. Jerry West was doing literally all he could, and Baylor was decent at best that series. Yea sure, Chamberlin was forced to sit out in game 7, but I'm sure the 8 point performance in game 6 wasn't his fault either right?



The Big Dipper said:


> Wilt still won a finals MVP at 35 so I guess you are right age doesn't matter if you are the GOAT.


He won it in a series where the star center on the other team was injured and didn't play at all that series. Again, try not to overrate his performance too much here. 







The Big Dipper said:


> My goal isn't to try and one up you as a master debator, I know you pride yourself on that but not even you can make an honest persuasive claim as to how Lebron is better. Please make one, if it is even 51% valid I will delete my account. You know why I wager that? Because you can't. He is not!


I just did not only in this post but in numerous other posts as well. Because he does what he does because of how good he is at playing the game of basketball, not because of his physical attributes. That in short is pretty much the best possible claim about it. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Wilt was too fast too strong to quick etc and he would still be that way in the game today, don't hate on the man because he is too good.


He would be, and like I said, he would still be good if he played today, but in terms of being a top ten all time player? He wouldn't even be considered if he was playing in todays game, and you know that. 



The Big Dipper said:


> I'll wait for your Lebron claim if you just bring up more debate knit picking I will assume you got nothing and will move on with my life.


I've made numerous claims now. If you're too blind to see that then that is not my problem.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Twilight years? Wilt had three dominant seasons at the start of his career, and then all of a sudden his stats just went down and never got better (except for the year he had the most assists in the NBA).
> 
> And in some ways yes and in some ways it makes no sense at all. Again we're comparing inflated stats to today's stats, where things like blocks, steals, and turnovers are accounted into the PER. I honestly don't believe that Lebron's current PER being better than Wilt's career PER proves anything, but your lack of argument towards what Diable said regarding the PER is the reason I brought it up.
> 
> 
> 
> :gay:
> 
> You're joking right?
> 
> You are aware that this only helps prove my argument right? Apart from Russell, when all these guys showed up in the league, Wilt's stats weren't nearly what they were before. And then suddenly he was forced to pass more. I won't say Wilt was worse than these guys, again, Wilt is a top ten player, but for someone who's supposed to be the GOAT, he shouldn't have to change up the way he plays just because a couple more good players at his position came into the league.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you want the five in reference to Michael Jordan? Or would you like the five in reference to Lebron?
> 
> No matter, I'll just do both. I guess I'll start first with Michael Jordan. Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Allen Iverson, and Alvin Robertson, who was one of the best defensive guards of all time and made life miserable for Michael Jordan at times.
> 
> I guess Lebron is next. Kevin Durant, Paul Pierce, Carmelo Anthony, Ron Artest (even in his Sacramento days he was still an incredibly efficient player and a monster on defense) and Danny Granger. (Shouldn't I name 10 out of fairness for Wilt since he played a lesser amount of teams than Lebron did? Also, could I name Power Forwards as well since that's another position Lebron usually plays?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Huh...so it looks like we agree on something. I'll give you this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stats that I love to use? The only time I have mentioned Lebron's stats was when referring to his record breaking streak that he had recently. That's it. And even then, I only bring that up because of the impact that his play made for the Miami Heat when he was putting up numbers like this. Wilt clearly did not have the type of impact that Lebron James currently has when he's out there on the floor. I can't think of many players who did.
> 
> 
> 
> You aren't showing me how Wilt is better. You're just showing me what stats he put up. That doesn't prove anything, not when comparing stats from this time frame to the stats that are being put up in today's NBA game, where it is more skill oriented and much harder to score.
> 
> If by better scorer you mean guy who used his unfair advantage that he had over everyone else he played against to the fullest while also considering the fast pace of the game at the time, then yes, he is the better scorer. Otherwise no, Wilt is not the better scorer, and it isn't even close. It sounds like you truly believe that Wilt was this good because he had amazing basketball skills that no one else had. No. That is not the case. It never was the case. You need to start realizing that. He didn't have a dominant/creative post game where he could be anywhere close to the basket and just shoot from there and make it. He needed to be close, inside the basket or else there was nothing he could really do. If Lebron were around in that era, do you have any idea how high his stats would be? They would have been off the charts. Look I'm not saying Wilt wasn't good, you don't score 100 points in a game while being an average at best basketball player. The guy was great. But his basketball skills were great at best. Lebron James is a whole different story.
> 
> And of course Wilt was the better rebounder...the guy is 7 foot 1, Lebron's 6 foot 8. Come on now. As for defender, I can't comment on that and neither can you. We don't have footage that shows us how good Wilt was on a daily basis on the other end of the floor. So when it comes to defense, leave that part out of this discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet despite having a legendary team, Wilt could only do it twice. And hell, Lebron almost did do it by himself, he led a team with ****ing Drew Gooden as the second best player to the NBA finals.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but how is this helping your argument? In the two occasions that Wilt lost to in the NBA finals, these were two teams that were supposed to be worse than the team Wilt was on. And in both of these instances, Wilt just disappeared. And don't even get me started with the playoffs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll admit, I love debating. It's fun. But that's not why I'm doing this. I'm doing this because you literally could not be more wrong. And so here we are. But if you want to throw out irrelevant opinions regarding me, by all means go ahead.
> 
> 
> 
> So who's fault was it? It couldn't have been Jerry West's, considering how he was the finals MVP of that series. Jerry West was doing literally all he could, and Baylor was decent at best that series. Yea sure, Chamberlin was forced to sit out in game 7, but I'm sure the 8 point performance in game 6 wasn't his fault either right?
> 
> 
> 
> He won it in a series where the star center on the other team was injured and didn't play at all that series. Again, try not to overrate his performance too much here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just did not only in this post but in numerous other posts as well. Because he does what he does because of how good he is at playing the game of basketball, not because of his physical attributes. That in short is pretty much the best possible claim about it.
> 
> 
> 
> He would be, and like I said, he would still be good if he played today, but in terms of being a top ten all time player? He wouldn't even be considered if he was playing in todays game, and you know that.
> 
> 
> 
> I've made numerous claims now. If you're too blind to see that then that is not my problem.


Well I am at work and I want to respond but with the holiday on Monday I have a lot of catch up so here is where I am getting all of my visual Wilt evidence as to how he is a better defensive player. If you see his Laker highlights you will notice he doesn't have many offensive highlights. On the warriors and 76ers he was asked to do everything so he scored rebounded defended etc.

When he got to the Lakers they had people to score, he was asked to defend grab every rebound and throw an outlet pass for the fast break. There would be times where he would launch an outlet pass and by the time he gets to half court West or Goodrich have already scored.

Anywho lok at this youtube channel and when I get home I'll go over your points.

http://www.youtube.com/user/dantheman9758


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Oops didn't even see this post lol.
> 
> 20.6 points per game? Um, you might want to get your facts straight there if you're referring to the finals series where he won the finals MVP award. He averaged 19.4 points per game, not 20.6. I don't know where you got those numbers from but you couldn't be more wrong. And even then those aren't impressive numbers.
> 
> And again, the only reason Wilt won the award was because of his rebounding. That's it. Jerry and Goodrich both had bad starts to the series, had that not happened, one of them would have easily gotten the award.
> 
> And yes, all of those players are there. And they did end up being hall of famers. But I don't see why you're bringing that up. That doesn't deteriorate my point in anyway. Three of those players were guards, one was a 6 foot 8 PF/C, how would they have any affect at all when it comes to Chamberlin's (a guy who is 7 foot 2 and incredibly strong and athletic) ability to rebound the ball or score? Kind of a pointless detail to bring up there don't you think?


Don't need to drag this even further.

It started with you saying: "_And when his dominance stopped, he ended up being the second or third or even the fourth caddy on a team._" 

I've showned you that in his second-to-last season in the NBA Wilt Chamberlain, age 35, was the Finals MVP. Being the second-best Laker scorer in the series, the better rebounder and defender.
The rest is you trying (and failing) to nitpick your way into a losing argument, young grasshopper.

Let's move on.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



23AJ said:


> Dwyane Wade is a better player than Scottie Pippen. From the moment he was drafted up to this point in his career. Anyone saying otherwise is straight bull shitting you. And clearly didn't watch Pippens career. Pippen never had the sack of D Wade. And Pippen's game evolved because of the mentorship of Michael Jeffery Jordan.
> 
> So I guess all you guys who are overrating Pippen should also be giving the credit that Jordan makes his teammates better than anybody including LeBron James, after all by reading through this thread, everyone sucks that LeBron has played with, and Pippen is the bomb, but Wade .. Bosh,, all those guys on Cleveland well they sucked, guess Bron isn't so great at making his teammates better like everyone says. So all I gotta say is, stop tricking punks, your game is up, and let history be the teacher, and let James career wind down.
> 
> Put me on the record, not only will LeBron fall short of the greatest ever in MJ, but LeBron will not surprass Kobe Bryant either.


that is ridiculous scottie arguably in the 1993-94 season was the best player in the world ...wade has never been that, not even close to being a part of the discussion ...if for no other reason than he has never been better than lebron whose time in the nba mirrors his own.

jordan gets virtually no credit for mentoring , outside of being a supportive teammate and that is pretty questionable considering whats been reported as far as how good a teammate mj is reputed to be.

a week ago jordan specifically mentioned 4 players whom he felt could have been superstars in his era...wade's name wasn't mention.

scottie already proved he was.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



PauloCatarino said:


> Don't need to drag this even further.
> 
> It started with you saying: "_And when his dominance stopped, he ended up being the second or third or even the fourth caddy on a team._"
> 
> I've showned you that in his second-to-last season in the NBA Wilt Chamberlain, age 35, was the Finals MVP. Being the second-best Laker scorer in the series, the better rebounder and defender.
> The rest is you trying (and failing) to nitpick your way into a losing argument, young grasshopper.
> 
> Let's move on.


How is it a losing argument when I'm not the one who's wrong here?

Seriously, second best scorer on the team in that series? 20.6 points per game? Where do you get your facts from? Wikipedia is more reliable than you are.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1972_finals.html

Take a look at the points per game category on the Lakers team. You can't even get your own facts right and you're trying to convince me that I'M the one who is in a losing argument here? And above all of that, you're trying to convince me that in a series that Chamberlin was the MVP in, where the person playing on the opposite position of Chamberlin is a player coming off the bench because Reed is injured, proves anything at all? This is as far as you could possibly go in the category of stupid. This is pretty much something I would expect from Drizzay or JBKB. 

And look at the amount of shots that Chamberlin took. You would think the so called GOAT would be more aggressive in a finals series. But guess what? This was the case in all of his games in the finals. And yet, in the regular season he sure has no problem taking a shitload of shots now does he? Face it, when it came to crunch time Chamberlin was a joke, a complete non factor and the only reason he won finals MVP here was because the future hall of famer that was supposed to be his match up in the series was out for the series, so in return he got a bench player who still did a lot better than people thought he would. Trying to use inflated stats is one thing, but my god I did not expect so much stupidity out of an argument regarding Wilt Chamberlin. 

I'm not the one in a losing argument here. I'm not wrong about what I've been saying, and if I am please do state where I am wrong in. I could use a good laugh. Your argument is a joke, and so is this claim that Wilt is the greatest of all time.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> How is it a losing argument when I'm not the one who's wrong here?
> 
> Seriously, second best scorer on the team in that series? 20.6 points per game? Where do you get your facts from? Wikipedia is more reliable than you are.
> 
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1972_finals.html
> 
> Take a look at the points per game category on the Lakers team. You can't even get your own facts right and you're trying to convince me that I'M the one who is in a losing argument here? And above all of that, you're trying to convince me that in a series that Chamberlin was the MVP in, where the person playing on the opposite position of Chamberlin is a player coming off the bench because Reed is injured, proves anything at all? This is as far as you could possibly go in the category of stupid. This is pretty much something I would expect from Drizzay or JBKB.
> 
> And look at the amount of shots that Chamberlin took. You would think the so called GOAT would be more aggressive in a finals series. But guess what? This was the case in all of his games in the finals. And yet, in the regular season he sure has no problem taking a shitload of shots now does he? Face it, when it came to crunch time Chamberlin was a joke, a complete non factor and the only reason he won finals MVP here was because the future hall of famer that was supposed to be his match up in the series was out for the series, so in return he got a bench player who still did a lot better than people thought he would. Trying to use inflated stats is one thing, but my god I did not expect so much stupidity out of an argument regarding Wilt Chamberlin.
> 
> I'm not the one in a losing argument here. I'm not wrong about what I've been saying, and if I am please do state where I am wrong in. I could use a good laugh. Your argument is a joke, and so is this claim that Wilt is the greatest of all time.


Damn you are a little worm aren't you? Chamberlains amazing D and good offense gave him the mvp.

Offense is only one side of basketball. 

It is very easy to say someone else is wrong how about you tell me how lebron is better. This is the third time I ask, how is Lebron better? 

You are in a losing arguement. Youknow Wilt is better so you try discrediting him instead of telling us lebrons achievements.

The facts speak for themselves. Also with the lakers he was asked to be the defensive anchor. That iswhy his game changed. Once again you are just regurgitating stuff insteaf of researching.

So let's hear it, how is lebron better? He aint even better than the big O. Do you know whothat is or what he did withoutWikipedia?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> Well I am at work and I want to respond but with the holiday on Monday I have a lot of catch up so here is where I am getting all of my visual Wilt evidence as to how he is a better defensive player. If you see his Laker highlights you will notice he doesn't have many offensive highlights. On the warriors and 76ers he was asked to do everything so he scored rebounded defended etc.
> 
> When he got to the Lakers they had people to score, he was asked to defend grab every rebound and throw an outlet pass for the fast break. There would be times where he would launch an outlet pass and by the time he gets to half court West or Goodrich have already scored.
> 
> Anywho lok at this youtube channel and when I get home I'll go over your points.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/dantheman9758


Just finished watching the whole thing. Now I won't make any excuses and I won't make any biased opinions towards Wilt. First I will start out with what I'm not surprised from (or the negatives in your case).

His offensive highlights didn't impress me to the least bit. They where exactly what I had expected of him. Constant dunks and constant close handed open lay ups. I have no reason what so ever to believe that with a playing style like that, that he would be a better scorer than Lebron in today's day and age, let alone Jordan for that matter. A lot of the blocks in this video were clear goal tends, and on smaller players as well. His changed role on the different teams still doesn't change my opinions regarding his scoring, for someone as talented as he was on the offensive end, there is no reason for the poor scoring performances that he had in the playoffs. 

Now time for the positives.

His defense impressed the hell out of me, and his defensive awareness is outstanding. If he were to play in today's game, he could definitely average 3 blocks per game, if not more. His athleticism is incredible and his blocks on Kareems sky hook were very impressive. I believe he and Hakeem are the only players to ever block those shots. The fact that he was able to adjust the way he did to playing a different kind of style for different kinds of teams is also impressive. It's something that you would want in a player, it's one of the best kinds of players you can find in fact. And his work ethic has always impressed me. His ability to play so many minutes through out so many games a year is incredible, especially when you put into consideration the fast pace that they played at in those days.

So I've seen his defense, and although I don't think I've seen enough of it, I'm willing to admit that Wilt is the better defender of the two, not by much, but he's better. Offensively though, despite the changed roles, he isn't better. Not even close. Using your strength and athleticism to your advantage doesn't make you a better offensive player (and the same goes for you Shaq).


----------



## Luke

Shaq was easily a more dominant scorer than LeBron. **** flash and flair ill take the almost guaranteed two points thanks.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> Damn you are a little worm aren't you? Chamberlains amazing D and good offense gave him the mvp.
> 
> Offense is only one side of basketball.
> 
> It is very easy to say someone else is wrong how about you tell me how lebron is better. This is the third time I ask, how is Lebron better?
> 
> You are in a losing arguement. Youknow Wilt is better so you try discrediting him instead of telling us lebrons achievements.
> 
> The facts speak for themselves. Also with the lakers he was asked to be the defensive anchor. That iswhy his game changed. Once again you are just regurgitating stuff insteaf of researching.
> 
> So let's hear it, how is lebron better? He aint even better than the big O. Do you know whothat is or what he did withoutWikipedia?


Oscar Robertson, the only man in NBA history to record a Triple Double in a season, Kareem's teammate in Milwaukee when they won the championship. Once again, I don't use wikipedia, I haven't been using wikipedia in this debate. I don't lie about things like this, I don't need to. If you want to be like hobojoe and act like everything you say about someone is true and if they deny it they're wrong, go ahead and be my guest, but you're simply wasting your time and showing you're as pathetic as he is. That will be the last thing that I will say regarding this topic.

As for why Lebron's better (and I can't believe I'm saying this for the fourth god damn time), he is better because he doesn't just dominate the game of basketball using his physical attributes or athleticism, he dominates it using his knowledge of the game and the incredible skill set he has at his arsenal. (It looks like I will have to spell it out for you since you apparently didn't get the memo the first twelve times) When he scores, he does so in a variety of ways, whether it's lay ups, jump shots, a lot of the shots he makes in games are incredibly difficult shots and yet he does it with absolute ease. I've watched almost every single game that he was in when he was playing for Cleveland, and there were only a few rare games where I wasn't amazed by a shot he made. 

Lebron has rare gifts both physically and athletically. He is one of the strongest men out on the floor and yet he is incredibly fast for someone his size. So it's hard to guard him. But the thing is, he's still better than pretty much anyone he faces out on the floor. With Wilt that was not the case. He was predictable. You knew what to expect from him. You just don't know what to expect from Lebron anymore. He now has a post game, he is one of the best players in the NBA at driving the ball in the lane, he's shooting the lights out as of late, and his passing abilities are just unreal. It was easy for Wilt to pass, I'm not saying Wilt wasn't a good passer, a couple of the passes you showed me in the video were pretty good, in fact I'd go as far as saying they were amazing passes. But Wilt didn't make people better. He didn't have a special gift of being able to get others involved. His presence just caused others to be open and he took advantage of that, as seen in the video and other videos that I have seen.

I could go on all day, but instead I'll sum it all up like this. Lebron's effect on a team is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, we have ever seen on a team. Offensively he has the scoring ability of Julius Erving (only Lebron can actually shoot) and he has the passing abilities of Oscar Robertson. He's an incredibly unselfish player and anyone who is out on the floor immediately becomes involved in the offense. Defensively he can guard all five positions (depending on who's playing center of course. If it's someone like Howard then Lebron's pretty much ****ed), and he can do it at an elite level. Starting out Lebron was decent, good at best on defense. But then in 2009 he just suddenly became one of the best defenders in the NBA. His awareness on defense is incredible, he can steal the ball, his blocks are entertaining as always. I can remember in 2010 in the playoffs when he was making life miserable for Paul Peirce on defense, who was use to being an elite scorer. You could rely on Lebron to guard basically anybody. 

And finally, Lebron's ability to perform when he is needed most, something Wilt undeniably lacked his entire career, and this is what ultimately prevents Wilt from ever being considered the greatest of all time. You said it yourself. Basketball is a team game. And yet, Lebron is so good, he by himself destroyed the Detroit Pistons in 2007 and led the Cavaliers to the NBA finals. This was one of the worst teams to ever go to the finals in the history of the NBA, and Lebron brought that team there and made people notice them. 

Wilt does not have these things apart from the superior defense. He does not have incredible offensive abilities, he does not have incredible skills like Lebron does, he has brute strength, incredible athleticism, and great height. That's it. 

Now I don't know about anyone else, but a guy with great athleticism, a lot of strength, amazing rebounding, limited offensive abilities, no killer instinct and outstanding defensive abilities does not beat a guy with great athleticism, lots of strength, great rebounding, great defensive abilities, outstanding offensive abilities, incredibly unselfish play, and a killer clutch instinct. If you believe so, then you need your head reexamined.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Luke said:


> Shaq was easily a more dominant scorer than LeBron. **** flash and flair ill take the almost guaranteed two points thanks.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


More dominant scorer? Yes. More skilled offensive player? No. There's a difference. 

And almost guaranteed? Yeah, sure, as long as no one did the hack a shaq strategy.


----------



## Luke

Hobojoe is a good poster.

And I'll take substance over skill any day of the week.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



hobojoe said:


> You can't have it both ways. You can't discredit Wilt's numbers because the game was different and the pace they played at was much faster while at the same time saying him shooting 50% from the floor is "horrible for a center". You do realize Wilt was the first player _ever_ to shoot 50%, don't you? Percentages in the low to mid-40s regularly led the league until he came around.


So XxIrvingxX, you're just going to take a baseless shot at me and not respond to this post at all? No part of this is an opinion, it's simply facts that you ignored to make your argument. You ripped Wilt for his FG%, address that.


----------



## Krstic All-Star

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

^ not to mention that Wilt's career FG % is still top 25 all time... 

And if anyone tries to dispute Wilt being the first to average .500: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg_pct_yearly.html


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Oscar Robertson, the only man in NBA history to record a Triple Double in a season, Kareem's teammate in Milwaukee when they won the championship. Once again, I don't use wikipedia, I haven't been using wikipedia in this debate. I don't lie about things like this, I don't need to. If you want to be like hobojoe and act like everything you say about someone is true and if they deny it they're wrong, go ahead and be my guest, but you're simply wasting your time and showing you're as pathetic as he is. That will be the last thing that I will say regarding this topic.
> 
> As for why Lebron's better (and I can't believe I'm saying this for the fourth god damn time), he is better because he doesn't just dominate the game of basketball using his physical attributes or athleticism, he dominates it using his knowledge of the game and the incredible skill set he has at his arsenal. (It looks like I will have to spell it out for you since you apparently didn't get the memo the first twelve times) When he scores, he does so in a variety of ways, whether it's lay ups, jump shots, a lot of the shots he makes in games are incredibly difficult shots and yet he does it with absolute ease. I've watched almost every single game that he was in when he was playing for Cleveland, and there were only a few rare games where I wasn't amazed by a shot he made.
> 
> Lebron has rare gifts both physically and athletically. He is one of the strongest men out on the floor and yet he is incredibly fast for someone his size. So it's hard to guard him. But the thing is, he's still better than pretty much anyone he faces out on the floor. With Wilt that was not the case. He was predictable. You knew what to expect from him. You just don't know what to expect from Lebron anymore. He now has a post game, he is one of the best players in the NBA at driving the ball in the lane, he's shooting the lights out as of late, and his passing abilities are just unreal. It was easy for Wilt to pass, I'm not saying Wilt wasn't a good passer, a couple of the passes you showed me in the video were pretty good, in fact I'd go as far as saying they were amazing passes. But Wilt didn't make people better. He didn't have a special gift of being able to get others involved. His presence just caused others to be open and he took advantage of that, as seen in the video and other videos that I have seen.
> 
> I could go on all day, but instead I'll sum it all up like this. Lebron's effect on a team is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, we have ever seen on a team. Offensively he has the scoring ability of Julius Erving (only Lebron can actually shoot) and he has the passing abilities of Oscar Robertson. He's an incredibly unselfish player and anyone who is out on the floor immediately becomes involved in the offense. Defensively he can guard all five positions (depending on who's playing center of course. If it's someone like Howard then Lebron's pretty much ****ed), and he can do it at an elite level. Starting out Lebron was decent, good at best on defense. But then in 2009 he just suddenly became one of the best defenders in the NBA. His awareness on defense is incredible, he can steal the ball, his blocks are entertaining as always. I can remember in 2010 in the playoffs when he was making life miserable for Paul Peirce on defense, who was use to being an elite scorer. You could rely on Lebron to guard basically anybody.
> 
> And finally, Lebron's ability to perform when he is needed most, something Wilt undeniably lacked his entire career, and this is what ultimately prevents Wilt from ever being considered the greatest of all time. You said it yourself. Basketball is a team game. And yet, Lebron is so good, he by himself destroyed the Detroit Pistons in 2007 and led the Cavaliers to the NBA finals. This was one of the worst teams to ever go to the finals in the history of the NBA, and Lebron brought that team there and made people notice them.
> 
> Wilt does not have these things apart from the superior defense. He does not have incredible offensive abilities, he does not have incredible skills like Lebron does, he has brute strength, incredible athleticism, and great height. That's it.
> 
> Now I don't know about anyone else, but a guy with great athleticism, a lot of strength, amazing rebounding, limited offensive abilities, no killer instinct and outstanding defensive abilities does not beat a guy with great athleticism, lots of strength, great rebounding, great defensive abilities, outstanding offensive abilities, incredibly unselfish play, and a killer clutch instinct. If you believe so, then you need your head reexamined.


How can you say Wilt is good only because he is athletic then praise Lebron for that? 

Wow the Heat win a title and all of a sudden Lebron has a killer instict and is mr. clutch.

Just as you ripped me for opinions now that is all you state. The whole point of offense is to put the ball in the basket who cares how you do it. Kobe makes tougher shots than Lebron and has a better range and better post game, does that mean he is instantly a better scorer? Well Bryant is but nor for that reason alone. The better scorer scores more points. The better defender stops his man from scoring points, the better rebounder rebounds more balls.

Wilt did what his coaches asked of him, he was asked to be a crazy scorer in his early years then he was asked to hold down the defense while West and Baylor and Goodrich did Offense.

Wilt did the same thing as Lebron, his team made the eastern conference finals like 7 times and the finals 4 times. Wilt has done what Lebron has done but he has done it 10 times more. How is it a positive for Lebron to not be selfish when Wilt is the only center to ever lead the league in assists.

Wilt Chamberlain has had the greatest effects on teams not Lebron. 

Well way to go Lebron made life difficult for Paul Pierce. Wilt made it miserable for everybody when he played defense and for everybody when he had the ball including the greatest defender ever in Bill Rusell.

And I like how you act like you've mentioned all this to me, I asked you for it 3 times before you mentioned how good he has been the last 3 seasons.

Lebron is good but anything he can do Wilt did it better and more times. I will never blame a player for being the sole reason a team doesn't make i to the finlas or loses in the finals but since you want to claim Wilt was a choker I actually laughed, look at your boy before you call anybody a choker.

WILT better scorer, he puts the ball in the net more than Lebron, he pulls down more boards and has more blocks than Lebron, he had rules changed to curtail his dominance and he doesn't need to travel every other play to do it. If you read your post again you will see where you have stated how you feel Lebron making tougher shots and being unpredictable is a big plus for him. Everyone knew what Wilt was gonna do, then why did nobody stop him? He couldn't be stopped. 

Go home Irving your over your head, you have backed yourself into a corner and you now have to hold on to a very wrong point to save face. 

WHO PUTS THE BALL I THE BASKET MORE? WILT

WHO IS THE BETTER DEFENDER? (BLOCKS, REBOUNDS, MAN TO MAN) WILT 

WHO WAS SUCH A DOMINNANT PLAYER THEY HAD TO CHANGE RULES SO THAT HE COULDN'T DOMINATE? WILT.

Lebron is also in his prime and his stats aren't even better than Wilts career. I can't wait till his career is over and all his stats sag from being in his 30's and his body breaking down. His stats which are already below Wilt will go even lower.

Respond with some facts, not how Lebron makes tougher shots.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> How can you say Wilt is good only because he is athletic then praise Lebron for that?


Way to completely misinterperate something. I praised Wilt for his athleticism, as I did for Lebron. Don't twist my words around like that.



The Big Dipper said:


> Wow the Heat win a title and all of a sudden Lebron has a killer instict and is mr. clutch.







There's so much more it's not even funny but it's getting late and I don't feel like looking them up on youtube. One of the all time best clutch performances in NBA history and regarded by many as one of the most dominating performances of a single team by a single player. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Just as you ripped me for opinions now that is all you state.


Dude, you asked me to make a claim as to why Lebron was better than Wilt, what I thought was so great about him, and you asked me to refrain from stats. So that's what I did. Don't suddenly do a 180 and try to criticize me for doing something you asked me to do.



The Big Dipper said:


> The whole point of offense is to put the ball in the basket who cares how you do it. Kobe makes tougher shots than Lebron and has a better range and better post game, does that mean he is instantly a better scorer? Well Bryant is but nor for that reason alone. The better scorer scores more points. The better defender stops his man from scoring points, the better rebounder rebounds more balls.


Because in todays game, there is no possible way Wilt would be able to score more than Lebron would, let alone put up the numbers he did in the past. You see, we already know that guys like Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Bill Russell would be able to dominate in todays game (Russell wouldn't have the rebounding numbers he had back then but he would still be an incredible defender and an incredible rebounder). Wilt would have the rebounding, the defense, but would he have the offense? Hell no. He would be around the 20-25 point mark at best. He had a limited offensive skill set. There's nothing more to it, it's a fact you keep denying over and over again.



The Big Dipper said:


> Wilt did what his coaches asked of him, he was asked to be a crazy scorer in his early years then he was asked to hold down the defense while West and Baylor and Goodrich did Offense.


He was not asked to disappear in the playoffs, which he did. He was not asked to not be aggressive when his teammates where doing poor and they needed someone to step up. Lebron James was not asked to score the last 25 points in his historic game against the Pistons in 2007, he simply did it because he wanted his team to win, and he did what ever he could to help them win.



The Big Dipper said:


> Wilt did the same thing as Lebron, his team made the eastern conference finals like 7 times and the finals 4 times. Wilt has done what Lebron has done but he has done it 10 times more. How is it a positive for Lebron to not be selfish when Wilt is the only center to ever lead the league in assists.


Wilt had two hall of famers for teammates. Lebron James had Mo Williams, who became an all star after playing alongside Lebron. Afterwards? Irrelevant (although he had a pretty good run in LA). Wilt did not do the same thing as Lebron. Not even close. On paper yes but the circumstances are totally different, and you need to stop basing everything off of stats and what it says on paper and start realizing what was actually going on. 

And Wilt was regarded as being a selfish player at the start of his career, and then became a more team oriented type of player. But the thing is, that's something he was told to do. Being unselfish and making plays for others is something Lebron LOVES to do, it's the thing he cares about the most in the game of basketball. It was one of his main weapons that made him so famous and made him the first overall draft pick for the Cavs.



The Big Dipper said:


> Wilt Chamberlain has had the greatest effects on teams not Lebron.


Yea no he didn't. Come on now. Don't make bullshit statements like this. Look at what happened to the teams that Wilt left, and then look at what happened to the team Lebron left, and then look at what Lebron could do for his team where as what Wilt could do for his. It isn't even arguable. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Well way to go Lebron made life difficult for Paul Pierce. Wilt made it miserable for everybody when he played defense and for everybody when he had the ball including the greatest defender ever in Bill Rusell.


That's because goal tending was allowed back then and Wilt was a freakish athlete and was 7 foot 1. I don't mean to be rude, but your statements are starting to get incredibly stupid to the point where it's hard to take you seriously. 



The Big Dipper said:


> And I like how you act like you've mentioned all this to me, I asked you for it 3 times before you mentioned how good he has been the last 3 seasons.


Again, I have mentioned it numerous times. I shouldn't have to spell it out for you. It was bad enough that I needed to. And even before I did it, I explained numerous times in this thread beforehand why Lebron was so good. So in reality I've actually said it more than three or four times.



The Big Dipper said:


> Lebron is good but anything he can do Wilt did it better and more times.


Wilt was not better than Lebron at making others better. That is an idiotic statement. You can't say someone did everything better when we're practically using inflated stats here. I strongly recommend you read the shit you type before hitting that submit post button.



The Big Dipper said:


> I will never blame a player for being the sole reason a team doesn't make i to the finlas or loses in the finals but since you want to claim Wilt was a choker I actually laughed, look at your boy before you call anybody a choker.


Oh look, another fool who thinks Lebron is a choker. Rofl. Yea, let me guess, you got this idea of him being a choker from a bunch of morons calling him that on a random kobe bryant video on youtube, right?

Lebron is anything but a choker. And the only instances in his career where you can argue that he choked (and I would personally agree with this one) is his infamous game 5 against the Celtics in 2010. That's it. 




The Big Dipper said:


> WILT better scorer, he puts the ball in the net more than Lebron, he pulls down more boards and has more blocks than Lebron, he had rules changed to curtail his dominance and he doesn't need to travel every other play to do it. If you read your post again you will see where you have stated how you feel Lebron making tougher shots and being unpredictable is a big plus for him. *Everyone knew what Wilt was gonna do, then why did nobody stop him?* He couldn't be stopped.


He couldn't be stopped because he was taller than everyone. I don't understand why you keep setting yourself up with these incredibly stupid statements. Do you know anything at all about Wilt's dominance in the NBA? Him changing the rules doesn't prove anything, he played the game in a way that it favored him, like dunking from the ****ing free throw line during a free throw attempt for starters. That doesn't make him any better, that just proves my point about how much worse he would be in today's game. And if Lebron played in Wilt's era, Lebron would easily be the better scorer. No question. You want to continue to make idiotic claims that Wilt is the better scorer? Be my guest. You're only making yourself look more like a fool.



The Big Dipper said:


> Go home Irving your over your head, you have backed yourself into a corner and you now have to hold on to a very wrong point to save face.
> 
> WHO PUTS THE BALL I THE BASKET MORE? WILT
> 
> WHO IS THE BETTER DEFENDER? (BLOCKS, REBOUNDS, MAN TO MAN) WILT
> 
> WHO WAS SUCH A DOMINNANT PLAYER THEY HAD TO CHANGE RULES SO THAT HE COULDN'T DOMINATE? WILT.


Am I being pranked here? Did Drizzay take over this kids account or something? I seriously just cannot comprehend the pure stupidity of these last couple comments.



The Big Dipper said:


> Lebron is also in his prime and his stats aren't even better than Wilts career.


Good christ, when will you learn that NO ONE'S stats will ever be like Wilts? It's impossible for anyone's stats to be like Wilts. These are two different eras. I don't know how many times I need to explain this to you. It seems like all you've been doing is holding onto this whole "Lebron didn't score more points than Wilt, there for Wilt's the better scorer. Lebron doesn't have Wilt's stats, so Wilt is better". I got news for you kid, these are different times. I have literally pointed that out to you numerous times and all you've done is repeat yourself. You aren't winning any arguments with the stupid shit you've been posting. All you've done is make yourself look like a broken record player with some serious mental issues. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Respond with some facts, not how Lebron makes tougher shots.


Again, you asked me to make claims. I claimed that Lebron makes tougher shots. Make up your mind already. 

So you want facts now? Okay.

Lebron James is already a 3 time MVP, some argue he should be a 4 time MVP. He currently, when going by a season by season comparison, is tied with Wilt for MVPs. Now you claim Wilt was so dominant, why did he only have 3 MVP's in seven seasons? What happened? He has on his rookie year and suddenly it takes him five years to get more? Lebron has already made the all NBA team 6 times, Wilt has made it 7 times in his ENTIRE CAREER. Lebron already has more all star MVP awards than Wilt does, and above all of this, he's only 28 years old. So I guess we still have a lot more of Lebron to go and he's already surpassed Wilt in the awards part of it. Oh wait what's that? Awards don't matter? Well actually they do matter since Lebron clearly has a lot more competition in this era than Wilt did in his era. 

I could go on, but it's late. I'm going to bed. If someone wants to take over for me until tomorrow go right ahead.

Oh and Luke I'm sure hobojoe is a good poster, but I wouldn't be able to tell because he's still on my ignore list (and it will remain that way for the time being).


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> *Good christ, when will you learn that NO ONE'S stats will ever be like Wilts?*.


You are right.

Thank you for playing, good night.:wave:


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Oh and Luke I'm sure hobojoe is a good poster, but I wouldn't be able to tell because he's still on my ignore list (and it will remain that way for the time being).


Convenient. Can someone else ask him to address his earlier claims regarding Wilt's "horrible" FG%?


----------



## Nimreitz

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Yo, you can have a LeBron vs. Wilt debate and that's valid, but you can't say Wilt is the GOAT. That shit was settled in the 60s and he lost. Stats and advanced stats are cool and all, but Wilt's selfishness is the most cited reason for why he never won as much as he should have. So maybe he gave you the ammo to compare stats with, but he was not a better basketball player than Russell. In the NBA they face off against each other in 1 on 1 situations often enough that head-to-head is more valid than in other sports where, for example QBs don't also play defensive back and Messi doesn't track back and defend Ronaldo.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Nimreitz said:


> Yo, you can have a LeBron vs. Wilt debate and that's valid, but you can't say Wilt is the GOAT. That shit was settled in the 60s and he lost. Stats and advanced stats are cool and all, but Wilt's selfishness is the most cited reason for why he never won as much as he should have. So maybe he gave you the ammo to compare stats with, but he was not a better basketball player than Russell. In the NBA they face off against each other in 1 on 1 situations often enough that head-to-head is more valid than in other sports where, for example QBs don't also play defensive back and Messi doesn't track back and defend Ronaldo.


It i hard to say who is GOAT but Wilt should be in the discussion every single time, Russell should also always be in that GOAT discussion, and yes he was individually better than Bill Russell but I will say that Bill Russell was a better winner, I know rings are a team accomplishment but when you go to the finals practically every year and win it practically every year of your carer against some of the best ever you are very very very good. With that said Wilt would routinely light up Russell. But the Celtics would usually light up every team in the 60's.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Nimreitz said:


> Yo, you can have a LeBron vs. Wilt debate and that's valid, but you can't say Wilt is the GOAT. *That shit was settled in the 60s and he lost. Stats and advanced stats are cool and all, but Wilt's selfishness is the most cited reason for why he never won as much as he should have. So maybe he gave you the ammo to compare stats with, but he was not a better basketball player than Russell*. In the NBA they face off against each other in 1 on 1 situations often enough that head-to-head is more valid than in other sports where, for example QBs don't also play defensive back and Messi doesn't track back and defend Ronaldo.


"Wilt is playing better than I used to -- passing off, coming out to set up screens, picking up guys outside, and sacrificing himself for team play." -- Bill Russell, Great Moments in Pro Basketball, (by Sam Goldaper) p.24


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> You are right.
> 
> Thank you for playing, good night.:wave:


:fail:










You really are stupid if you think that favors Wilt in any way in this argument. I've never seen such biased favoritism towards a player to the point where they will go as far as saying that inflated stats being untouched makes them great. It's like you're trying to make us think you're a retard. 

Oh and it's nice to see you didn't even bother to respond to any of my points in the rest of the post. I guess the facts where just too much for you. 

P.S. You want to compare stats? Right now for his career, Lebron James is averaging 28 points per game in the playoffs. Wilt Chamberlin averaged 22.5 points per game in the playoffs, and keep in mind that Lebron so far as taken much less amounts of shots than Wilt has in the playoffs. I'll go ahead and let you explain that one while I sit back and laugh.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> :fail:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You really are stupid if you think that favors Wilt in any way in this argument. I've never seen such biased favoritism towards a player to the point where they will go as far as saying that inflated stats being untouched makes them great. It's like you're trying to make us think you're a retard.
> 
> Oh and it's nice to see you didn't even bother to respond to any of my points in the rest of the post. I guess the facts where just too much for you.
> 
> P.S. You want to compare stats? Right now for his career, Lebron James is averaging 28 points per game in the playoffs. Wilt Chamberlin averaged 22.5 points per game in the playoffs, and keep in mind that Lebron so far as taken much less amounts of shots than Wilt has in the playoffs. I'll go ahead and let you explain that one while I sit back and laugh.



Hahah now you are getting desperate, anyway I love your pictures of face palming. 

No one will ever reach his numbers again because no one will ever average his minutes per game and status of never fouling out of a game. That is why he got so many shots and has such high numbers, he was always on the court, he never tired and never fouled out of a game. He was an amazing athlete, and that coupled with the fact he was 7-1 and so imposing meant he did what he wanted.

For Wilts first 7 playoffs, which is all Lebron has, Wilt averages 31.2 points per game while averaging 26.7 rebounds and averaging 3.8 assists.

If you wanna compare stats that is how you compare them. I hope you are laughing at yourself because you are a joke.

Wilt was too good, he scored, rebounded, blocked and did so much because he was more athletic had better stamina and was a better basketball player.

Shit imagine what he would do if he had to face todays weak ass centers. How the **** are they gonna stop him? The best center in the game Dwight would maybe hold him to 35. I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped 50 on every center.

Also before you spout another average stat compare the first 9 seasons since that is all Lebron has. 

Wilt was stronger, faster, jumped higher, jumped further, scored, more rebounded more and defended better. 

You done?


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



hobojoe said:


> You can't have it both ways. You can't discredit Wilt's numbers because the game was different and the pace they played at was much faster while at the same time saying him shooting 50% from the floor is "horrible for a center". You do realize Wilt was the first player _ever_ to shoot 50%, don't you? Percentages in the low to mid-40s regularly led the league until he came around.





hobojoe said:


> So XxIrvingxX, you're just going to take a baseless shot at me and not respond to this post at all? No part of this is an opinion, it's simply facts that you ignored to make your argument. You ripped Wilt for his FG%, address that.





XxIrvingxX said:


> :fail:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You really are stupid if you think that favors Wilt in any way in this argument. I've never seen such biased favoritism towards a player to the point where they will go as far as saying that inflated stats being untouched makes them great. It's like you're trying to make us think you're a retard.
> 
> Oh and it's nice to see you didn't even bother to respond to any of my points in the rest of the post. I guess the facts where just too much for you.
> 
> P.S. You want to compare stats? Right now for his career, Lebron James is averaging 28 points per game in the playoffs. Wilt Chamberlin averaged 22.5 points per game in the playoffs, and keep in mind that Lebron so far as taken much less amounts of shots than Wilt has in the playoffs. I'll go ahead and let you explain that one while I sit back and laugh.



Well once again I dont want to be called a cyberbully by just pointing out facts to you over and over again and proving you wrong and uneducated.

So why don't you answer hobojoe's very valid questions. Or do you have no valid argument and just ignore him?

And before you say you have him on ignore, people pointed out he made a good point, you could have found it but no you can't stand to be wrong about this. You are wrong but why should I rub that in, if it makes you sleep better then who am I to show you reality. 

I'll just let a delusional kid who loves Wikipedia and the ESPN NBA higlights keep spouting false statements. I would never tell him to go read a book and see that when a player averages almost 3 times more rebounds, more blocks and more points as well as having to have rules made to stop him, he is a better player.

Well it was good talking to you I am sure you will block me after this so you don't have to see my posts anymore that remind you that Wilt is the better player.

Anyways wanna answer hobojoe because at this point I am just talking to a debater who thinks this is his debate class, and not reality.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Hobo, I can't see what you're typing. If you are responding to my posts, I strongly recommend you stop wasting your time.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Hobo, I can't see what you're typing. If you are responding to my posts, I strongly recommend you stop wasting your time.



Hey Irving I am done, I actually really like you as a poster. Sorry for being rude. Lebron is great and he will go down as one of the best I just don't see him surpassing MJ or Wilt.

You make very good points I was just being a cocksucker. Take care man.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> No one will ever reach his numbers again because no one will ever average his minutes per game and status of never fouling out of a game.


Even if someone were to play the same amount of minutes, and didn't foul out of a game often, no one would come close to reaching his stats. What part of "the pace of the game was much faster back then" are you not understanding here?



The Big Dipper said:


> That is why he got so many shots and has such high numbers, he was always on the court, he never tired and never fouled out of a game. He was an amazing athlete, and that coupled with the fact he was 7-1 and so imposing meant he did what he wanted.


You really know absolutely nothing at all about the pace of the game back then do you? Wilt averaged around 40 shots per game. Teams on average shot 120 times per game. And when Wilt was both a selfish player and a stat hog, he shot the ball like crazy, I think he averaged over 40 shots per game in one season.



The Big Dipper said:


> Well once again I dont want to be called a cyberbully by just pointing out facts to you over and over again and proving you wrong and uneducated.
> 
> So why don't you answer hobojoe's very valid questions. Or do you have no valid argument and just ignore him?
> 
> And before you say you have him on ignore, people pointed out he made a good point, you could have found it but no you can't stand to be wrong about this. You are wrong but why should I rub that in, if it makes you sleep better then who am I to show you reality.
> 
> Anyways wanna answer hobojoe because at this point I am just talking to a debater who thinks this is his debate class, and not reality.


What exactly have I been wrong about? I wasn't wrong when I said Wilt had limited offensive abilities, I wasn't wrong when I said the pace of the game was a lot different back then, I wasn't wrong when I said Lebron has much better offensive capabilities than Wilt does, I wasn't wrong when I said that trying to pass to others was something Wilt was forced to do where as making others better is something Lebron enjoys doing and thrives on doing, I wasn't wrong when I said Lebron has had much better performances in the playoffs than Wilt has, and I sure as hell wasn't wrong when I said that Wilt's stats if he played today would be no where close to what they were back then. 

So please, explain to me what exactly I'm wrong about.

Oh wait, am I wrong for thinking Lebron's better than Wilt? Dipper, you need to understand that these are things called opinions. You can't claim someone is wrong for thinking that one player is better than the other. The only thing they can be wrong about is their reasoning for thinking someone is better. For example, you just got done making an idiotic claim that the reason no one will ever have Wilt's stats is because no one will ever play the minutes he played and be able to stay in the game without fouling out. Anyone would simply laugh at your face if you told them that in real life. Everyone knows the pace of the game is much different back then and the game of basketball was still developing. It wasn't a perfect game, there were lots of holes in the rules that for the most part have been covered up today. Saying the minutes are the reason for it is as dumb of a claim as you could possibly make.

As for Hobojoe's point, good job being able to point out one of the flaws in my comment there. That's how you actually prove someone wrong. By taking a point that they made in a post and explaining why that's wrong. I strongly advice you to take notes.

In terms of today's game, below 50% or just at 50% isn't good for a center. But back then in the game, that's a different story due to the style of the game at the time. Shots were thrown up at random times and a team shooting 40% from the field was considered good back then. Good call Hobojoe.

So there you go Dipper. One thing I'm wrong about that wasn't even pointed out by you. Congrats.

P.S. Why would I block you Dipper? Do you honestly think I'm getting mad over the things you're writing? I'm enjoying doing this. Hell the first thing I do when I come onto this site is go and check to see what idiotic thing you have to say next. If anyone on this site knows me at all it's that I enjoy debating, and that unlike you I'm willing to admit when I am wrong. Just ask Luke.


----------



## Luke

Why do people consider Wilt never fouling out a good thing again?


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Even if someone were to play the same amount of minutes, and didn't foul out of a game often, no one would come close to reaching his stats. What part of "the pace of the game was much faster back then" are you not understanding here?
> 
> 
> 
> You really know absolutely nothing at all about the pace of the game back then do you? Wilt averaged around 40 shots per game. Teams on average shot 120 times per game. And when Wilt was both a selfish player and a stat hog, he shot the ball like crazy, I think he averaged over 40 shots per game in one season.
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly have I been wrong about? I wasn't wrong when I said Wilt had limited offensive abilities, I wasn't wrong when I said the pace of the game was a lot different back then, I wasn't wrong when I said Lebron has much better offensive capabilities than Wilt does, I wasn't wrong when I said that trying to pass to others was something Wilt was forced to do where as making others better is something Lebron enjoys doing and thrives on doing, I wasn't wrong when I said Lebron has had much better performances in the playoffs than Wilt has, and I sure as hell wasn't wrong when I said that Wilt's stats if he played today would be no where close to what they were back then.
> 
> So please, explain to me what exactly I'm wrong about.
> 
> Oh wait, am I wrong for thinking Lebron's better than Wilt? Dipper, you need to understand that these are things called opinions. You can't claim someone is wrong for thinking that one player is better than the other. The only thing they can be wrong about is their reasoning for thinking someone is better. For example, you just got done making an idiotic claim that the reason no one will ever have Wilt's stats is because no one will ever play the minutes he played and be able to stay in the game without fouling out. Anyone would simply laugh at your face if you told them that in real life. Everyone knows the pace of the game is much different back then and the game of basketball was still developing. It wasn't a perfect game, there were lots of holes in the rules that for the most part have been covered up today. Saying the minutes are the reason for it is as dumb of a claim as you could possibly make.
> 
> As for Hobojoe's point, good job being able to point out one of the flaws in my comment there. That's how you actually prove someone wrong. By taking a point that they made in a post and explaining why that's wrong. I strongly advice you to take notes.
> 
> In terms of today's game, below 50% or just at 50% isn't good for a center. But back then in the game, that's a different story due to the style of the game at the time. Shots were thrown up at random times and a team shooting 40% from the field was considered good back then. Good call Hobojoe.
> 
> So there you go Dipper. One thing I'm wrong about that wasn't even pointed out by you. Congrats.
> 
> P.S. Why would I block you Dipper? Do you honestly think I'm getting mad over the things you're writing? I'm enjoying doing this. Hell the first thing I do when I come onto this site is go and check to see what idiotic thing you have to say next. If anyone on this site knows me at all it's that I enjoy debating, and that unlike you I'm willing to admit when I am wrong. Just ask Luke.


I respect your opinion, I think differently. I just can't convince you that 30.1 is more than 27.6 and 22.9 is more than 7.2. Also Lebron averages .8 blocks per game, blocks were not recorded in wilt's time but a very safe very low estimate would be 4-6 blocks per game. That a center averages 4.4 assists for a career, where a point guard in a SF body averages only 6.9, and keep in mind back then assists were counted only if the player took 1 dribble max, today you throw an outlet pass to a player at half court and he runs it in for a layup that is an assist now, not then so Wilt would have had more assists. 

I don't know how to convince you of that I don't possess the skills nor buzzwords to get you to see how he did more and on top had better athleticism, did all he did on defense with never fouling out and for a whole season averaged 48.5 minutes a game and for a career 46. I suck at debating because I can't show you how that is better. 

Even with adjusted pace Lebron's first 9 seasons can't touch Wilt's first 9 seasons. 

I also don't know how to convince you that Wilt's numbers are for a whole career so more years and out of prime seasons, compared with Lebron who is in his prime. 

Sorry I give in to your master debate skills.

I would love to discuss this with you when Lebrons career is over but for now he ain't at or past Wilt's level and even if he could surpass Wilt it would take him finishing his career to see where he stood. As of right now he is not higher than Wilt on the GOAT list, if his career ended right now he would not be past Wilt. I don't think you will find many people who will argue with that. Just how you think I have rose colored glasses of the past I think you are too in the now with highlights and flashy dunks.

But hey man like I said in my other post I am done. We are now just spinning our wheels and I was beginning to get too critical which is something I hate doing. Feel free to carry on with hobojoe I am sure he has more energy than me in debating.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> I respect your opinion, I think differently. I just can't convince you that 30.1 is more than 27.6 and 22.9 is more than 7.2.


*facepalm*

I'm going to say this one last time. Wilt played in a DIFFERENT ERA WITH A DIFFERENT PACE. OF COURSE HE IS GOING TO HAVE MORE POINTS.

I don't understand why this simple concept is so difficult for you to grasp. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Also Lebron averages .8 blocks per game, blocks were not recorded in wilt's time but a very safe very low estimate would be 4-6 blocks per game.


Um...I'm almost certain that I agreed with you that Wilt was the better defender of the two, but then again I seriously doubt you read any of my posts anyways. 




The Big Dipper said:


> That a center averages 4.4 assists for a career, where a point guard in a SF body averages only 6.9, and keep in mind back then assists were counted only if the player took 1 dribble max, today you throw an outlet pass to a player at half court and he runs it in for a layup that is an assist now, not then so Wilt would have had more assists.


Considering how much quicker the pace of the game was, that point is completely irrelevant. And even then, only 6.9 assists? Only? For a Small Forward, averaging 6.9 assists per game for your career is incredible. Remember he doesn't get the ball most of the time on the inbound (well, in Miami maybe but back in Cleveland he didn't. He wasn't usually the one setting up plays for the offense). 

Now I'm willing to ignore the fact that you're trying to use excuses to make it seem like Wilt was the better passer of the two, but he's not, even if he did average most assists per game for his career, he still wouldn't be the better passer. You even said it yourself, most of the time Wilt was double teamed or even triple teamed. When that happens, that usually means that there's going to be wide open teammates. Now, I want you to use your head for this one. Wilt was more often than not much taller than the opposing competition that he was facing. What does that mean? That means he was able to find his open teammates easily. It's not easy finding open teammates when you're getting double teamed or triple teamed, but it wasn't hard either in Wilt's case. 

As for Lebron, well, Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan's old teammate, pretty much summed it up when he said Lebron might be the greatest player of all time (disagree with that but he makes good points.)

"Michael Jordan is probably the greatest scorer to ever play in the game, but I may go as far as to say LeBron James may be the greatest player to ever play the game," Pippen said Friday morning on ESPN Radio. "Because he's so potent offensively that not only can he score at will, but he keeps everybody involved and you have to be on your Ps and Qs on defense because no guy on the basketball court is not a threat to score when LeBron James is out there. Not only that, but he's also doing it on the defensive end."

http://chicago.sbnation.com/2011/5/27/2193167/scottie-pippen-lebron-james-better-michael-jordan



The Big Dipper said:


> I don't know how to convince you of that I don't possess the skills nor buzzwords to get you to see how he did more and on top had better athleticism, did all he did on defense with never fouling out and for a whole season averaged 48.5 minutes a game and for a career 46. I suck at debating because I can't show you how that is better.


You suck at debating because you can't understand the simple concept that those stats not only don't prove anything, but they CAN'T prove anything in a argument like this. I have literally said this so many times now and you are continuing to ignore it. Wilt played at a much, MUCH faster pace than Lebron did. Those stats are inflated when you compare them to anyone's stats that played in this era. Wilt had more shot opportunities per game, he had more rebounding opportunities per game, he had more assist opportunities per game. Just because he had more opportunities doesn't make him better. That's like saying someone is smarter than you because you took a test once, got like a B, and the other person took the same test eight times and got a A on the last time after getting worse grades than you did the previous times. That's basically what you're saying. Your logic makes absolutely no sense and your argument is laughable.

I truly believe Wilt was an incredible rebounder despite the large amounts of rebounding opportunities he had. He had incredible awareness on defense and was a great blocker. But there is absolutely no way he would ever be able to put up the same scoring numbers that he put up during his time if he played in today's league. Absolutely no way. And I can almost guarantee you that Lebron would not only be scoring more times than him, he would be beating him out for the MVP awards each time as well (and by that I mean getting more votes, not necessarily winning it each time). If you disagree with that, you are not only biased, but you have absolutely no knowledge what so ever on the game of basketball.



The Big Dipper said:


> Even with adjusted pace Lebron's first 9 seasons can't touch Wilt's first 9 seasons.


Once again, these are things you need to stop doing. You can't just make statements like this without actually providing some reasoning as to why he wouldn't be able to. You're providing an opinion and you aren't giving any evidence to support it. This is why you suck at debating.

Anyways, really...a guy who can shoot from anywhere on the floor, is just as good inside as Wilt was, if not better, is faster, and can actually shoot free throws wouldn't have as good of stats as Wilt did? Wow, that's hilarious. Even though he probably wouldn't average 50 points in a season (because he isn't a stat hound like Wilt was), it's almost a guarantee that he would average over 30.1 points per game in that time considering how he was able to do it in two different seasons while playing in this era. 

Also, lets do some stats counting shall we? (since you just love to rely on stats so much). In Wilt Chamberlin's historic 50 point per game season, he shot the ball 3159 times that year. 3159. And this is off of 50% shooting too keep in mind. Now, in Lebron's third year in the NBA, he averaged 31.4 points per game. And he only shot the ball 1823 times. That's the most times he has ever shot the ball in a single season. And this was on 48% shooting. Lets do some math shall we? I will calculate the amount of times Wilt shot the ball and put it into perspective with Lebron's best season scoring wise. I will also tally in the free throw attempts he has as well.

So, when the calculation is done, and just going off of points in that season, Lebron would have ended up with 3032 points off of just his field goal shooting. Now, Wilt had 1363 free throw attempts that year. Lebron was a 73.8% free throw shooter. So, when doing the calculations, he would have most likely ended up with around 1005 points just off of free throws. Now lets do the math shall we? 3032 + 1005 = 4037. 

Ohh whats this? Oh no does Lebron end up with more points than Wilt? Yep, sure does. 

When calculated, his points per game ends up being 51.1 points per game, which beats out Wilt Chamberlin's average of 50.4.

What does this prove? Absolutely nothing, I don't intend on using this as serious evidence in any possible way. However, when going by YOUR logic, it proves Lebron would be a better scorer than Wilt if he played during his time. And you wonder why I can't take the shit you say seriously.



The Big Dipper said:


> I also don't know how to convince you that Wilt's numbers are for a whole career so more years and out of prime seasons, compared with Lebron who is in his prime.


There's no convincing needed, I already know Wilt's numbers are more. Again, you need to stop over relying on stats, and start realizing the difference that the pace of the games made. You are literally relying on nothing but stats and are completely disregarding the the way the players played the game of basketball, whether it's offense, or defense, or even rebounding. And then when it's stats like the ones he had in the playoffs, you just ignore them and act like they are irrelevant when in reality, his playoff stats are the ones that matter the most.



The Big Dipper said:


> I would love to discuss this with you when Lebrons career is over but for now he ain't at or past Wilt's level and even if he could surpass Wilt it would take him finishing his career to see where he stood. As of right now he is not higher than Wilt on the GOAT list, if his career ended right now he would not be past Wilt.* I don't think you will find many people who will argue with that.* Just how you think I have rose colored glasses of the past I think you are too in the now with highlights and flashy dunks.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...erlain-why-king-james-will-surpass-nba-legend

Hell here's one guy who's saying that at one point, Lebron looked like he was becoming the next Wilt Chamberlin, and claimed that was a BAD THING. Hmm, if he's the GOAT, why is that a bad thing for Lebron to be becoming the next Wilt Chamberlin?

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/...to-wilt-company-not-a-good-thing-for-the-king

Another one criticizing Wilt in regards with Lebron.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/lebron-james-the-next-jordan?-more-like-wilt-chamberlain



The Big Dipper said:


> But hey man like I said in my other post I am done. We are now just spinning our wheels and I was beginning to get too critical which is something I hate doing. Feel free to carry on with hobojoe I am sure he has more energy than me in debating.


No, get critical. I could care less about your petty insults. If it were coming from someone with actual intelligence I might be offended, but in your case I would welcome it.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I know the pace is different, I have adjust pace and Wilt's first 9 seasons would be about 29-30 PPG in todays era that is with lowering his FGA and his FTA not that his FTA matter as he was an awful FT shooter but I did it to be fair. His PPG would be much higher with more lax defensive rules, i.e. no handchecking. His rebound turn into 14-15 and his assists turned into 4 assists per game but should be more based on the fact assists are counted much looser today, only 1 dribble after the pass for an assist in Wilts day. And I am not factoring in that Wilt was playing in a golden age of centers. I don't doubt he would do even better against the Deandre Jordan Clipps, The Thunders C Perkins, and centerless Miami heat, the best teams at the moment.

Where you are failing is that you are comparing Lebrons first 9 years to Wilt's entire career.

So we are including Wilt's seasons when he was past his scoring prime. Does that make sense. It is like using Derrick Rose's first 3 years of stats and saying his 21 PPG shows he is a better scorer than Isiah Thomas's entire career PPG of 19. So I am sure in one of your debate classes you must have been taught to group similarities and separate differences. 

Wilt is a better defender obviously we agree. So that is half of basketball where Wilt is already better both of us agreeing.

As for the assist comments, why is Wilt's height a negative on how good of a passer he was? Is it a negative on Magic Johnson? Is a tall QB given shit because he can see over players better than a shorter one?

On your calculation of 51.5 ppg how would Lebron do that against centers? Your flawed use of my logic is even flawed. It's like me using Wilts nba record FG% of .727 and applying toward Lebrons game, I mean if Wilt played in this era and took LBJ's 1823 shots from his 2005-2006 he would have scored 2650 a season or 32.3 PPG and that is WITHOUT FREE THROWS, but Wilt sucked at free throws so good thing he doesn't need them. But of course you weren't trying to squueze in a point covertly when you brought that up were you? I mean why bring it up right? Anywho....

Here is a video of Walt Frazier talking about how Wilt would do today, disagree if you want but he makes good points http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMvmsCqRAiI.

Oh and if that doesn't help here is one from Kareem Abdul Jabbar http://chicago.sbnation.com/2011/5/...rlain-michael-jordan-was-the-best-scorer-ever 

Of course you may say well whatever that is just their opinion but yes the same can be said of all those links you mentioned, just 1 from a player the rest from ****ing bleacher report bloggers? hahahahahah nope! Mine are from 2 HALL OF FAME ALL TIME GREATS, yours are from Ray Ratto? and Alex Kay? ok next.

And no I do not want to insult you, I can tell daddy already did that too much, which is why you have this faux rebellious "I can prove anybody wrong" debating, holier than thou staircase wit mentality.

Lebron offense 8/10 but for you I will do 9/10
Lebron defense 7/10 once again you probably want 8/10

Wilt offense 9/10 id say 10/10 
Wilt defense 10/10

Give Lebron a couple more years to exit his prime and see his career numbers dwindle, but for now Lebron's prime can't beat Wilt's all time career, highs and lows.

Lebron score 17/20
Wilt score 19/20 

:twoguns:


----------



## Krstic All-Star

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Anyone else amused at the fact that the Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" thread has revolved around whether LeBron could surpass Wilt?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> I know the pace is different, I have adjust pace and Wilt's first 9 seasons would be about 29-30 PPG in todays era that is with lowering his FGA and his FTA not that his FTA matter as he was an awful FT shooter but I did it to be fair. His PPG would be much higher with more lax defensive rules, i.e. no handchecking. His rebound turn into 14-15 and his assists turned into 4 assists per game but should be more based on the fact assists are counted much looser today, only 1 dribble after the pass for an assist in Wilts day. And I am not factoring in that Wilt was playing in a golden age of centers. I don't doubt he would do even better against the Deandre Jordan Clipps, The Thunders C Perkins, and centerless Miami heat, the best teams at the moment.


I decided to do the calculations myself, and when rounded, his 50 points per game season if playing in todays game with the same FG% and same FT% would become a 32.5 points per game season.

Now remember, you're basing this off of the assumption that his FG% would be this good. Lebron James I know for a fact would be able to shoot 48% from the field if he played in Wilt's era because he is just that good. Wilt's FG%, unless he developed some more skills that would let him be able to dominate inside like he could in our era, would most likely go down. Now Wilt was good at developing skills in other areas, so I'm sure he would've been able to develop the necessary skills to be good enough in todays game. But if he played like he did back then in todays game, that 32.5 per game season would be more like a 20 per game season, 25 at the most. 

Now, the rebounding scenario I think you have correct, but I actually think Wilt's assists would go up. It's not like Wilt wasn't a good passer, he was still a great passer. He was simply forced to start passing the ball, but despite that, he was still at least decent at doing so. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Where you are failing is that you are comparing Lebrons first 9 years to Wilt's entire career.


And why is that a bad thing? Keep in mind that Wilt only played in the league for 14 years. Apart from his 13th and 14th year, Lebron's stats are either going to get more impressive at an unreal rate like they are now, or he will stop improving and they will only improve a little bit. If we go by a 14 year to 14 year comparison here, Lebron will win this one out, no question's asked. 

So if anything I'm doing Wilt a favor here. Lebron career averages will only improve as his seasons continue until he gets to the point where he's out of his prime, which won't happen until about his 14th or 15th year.



The Big Dipper said:


> So we are including Wilt's seasons when he was past his scoring prime. Does that make sense.


Yes it does. Why? Because these seasons being past his scoring prime don't exist. It wasn't like he lost any skills or anything when it came to scoring as he got into the latter part of his career, he didn't really need much skills to begin with. He already had an unfair advantage over his opponents and that didn't change as he got older. The reason his average went down is because he shot the ball less, as you stated before, and was forced to become more of a team player. Now I don't think that's a bad thing, in fact if anything that adds on to his greatness.



The Big Dipper said:


> It is like using Derrick Rose's first 3 years of stats and saying his 21 PPG shows he is a better scorer than Isiah Thomas's entire career PPG of 19. So I am sure in one of your debate classes you must have been taught to group similarities and separate differences.


How is that anything close to this? That's much shorter amount of years and that's involving one particular subject. And lets keep something in mind here. I'm not using stats here to back up my claims. I'm using my knowledge of the game here, something anyone would use when comparing someone like Wilt to someone who played in our times. The only one who started using the stats argument here was you. I decided to use it to play along with your little game and I've been using it against you to prove your own points wrong. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Wilt is a better defender obviously we agree. So that is half of basketball where Wilt is already better both of us agreeing.


I wouldn't say obviously, like I said, it's close. But Wilt beats out Lebron for this one (I only say it's close because I haven't seen enough of Wilt's defense on a per minute basis in a game to say it, but from what I've seen I see no reason why he shouldn't be a better defender.)



The Big Dipper said:


> As for the assist comments, why is Wilt's height a negative on how good of a passer he was? Is it a negative on Magic Johnson? Is a tall QB given shit because he can see over players better than a shorter one?


I didn't say it was a negative, I was saying not to overrate his passing abilities because his height was a huge factor in his ability to get those passes. (Same goes for you Magic.)



The Big Dipper said:


> On your calculation of 51.5 ppg how would Lebron do that against centers? Your flawed use of my logic is even flawed. It's like me using Wilts nba record FG% of .727 and applying toward Lebrons game, I mean if Wilt played in this era and took LBJ's 1823 shots from his 2005-2006 he would have scored 2650 a season or 32.3 PPG and that is WITHOUT FREE THROWS, but Wilt sucked at free throws so good thing he doesn't need them. But of course you weren't trying to squueze in a point covertly when you brought that up were you? I mean why bring it up right? Anywho....


What do you mean AGAINST centers? My calculation of 51.5 per game was made off of the assumption that Lebron shot the ball as many times as Wilt did in his 50.4 points per season game with the same FG% as he had in his third season of his career, which was 48%. Where does the "against centers" part come in? There are other players out there on the floor who aren't centers, you do understand that right? Try actually reading the post and understanding the point. 

And also, Lebron currently does that against a lot more centers right now anyways since he likes to drive the ball into the lane a lot. So again, what exactly are you trying to say here?



The Big Dipper said:


> Here is a video of Walt Frazier talking about how Wilt would do today, disagree if you want but he makes good points http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMvmsCqRAiI.
> 
> Oh and if that doesn't help here is one from Kareem Abdul Jabbar http://chicago.sbnation.com/2011/5/...rlain-michael-jordan-was-the-best-scorer-ever


I'll have to take a look at those later and I'll get back to you on those. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Of course you may say well whatever that is just their opinion but yes the same can be said of all those links you mentioned,


I actually wouldn't. I value the opinions of an NBA player highly over anyone elses on this site or on those sites I made because they know more about the game than any of us. Sure it's their opinion but I won't shove it aside like it's nothing, I'll still strongly consider what they said. 



The Big Dipper said:


> just 1 from a player the rest from ****ing bleacher report bloggers? hahahahahah nope! Mine are from 2 HALL OF FAME ALL TIME GREATS, yours are from Ray Ratto? and Alex Kay? ok next.


Oh there's a lot more I could show you, but I wasn't sure if you wanted to spend hours watching interviews and documentaries. 



The Big Dipper said:


> And no I do not want to insult you, I can tell daddy already did that too much, which is why you have this faux rebellious "I can prove anybody wrong" debating, holier than thou staircase wit mentality.


You mean despite the fact that I rarely can ever prove Luke wrong? Like I said before I'm willing to admit when I am wrong, this imaginary mindset that you've decided to give me is cute, thanks for the laugh, but rather than make jokes about my personal life I suggest you try to stop making your own arguments and proof look like complete jokes first.



The Big Dipper said:


> Lebron offense 8/10 but for you I will do 9/10
> Lebron defense 7/10 once again you probably want 8/10


Lol, 8/10? Before I even tell you what I think about his defense, or his offense for that matter, let me ask you a question. How many games that featured Lebron have you watched recently, or at all for that matter? (This doesn't include the all star games).



The Big Dipper said:


> Wilt offense 9/10 id say 10/10
> Wilt defense 10/10


His defense is a 9 at best, remember he did a lot of blocks that in todays game would be considered goal tends, his offense you literally couldn't be more wrong on. Probably a 6/10, 7 at the most. Again, a limited offensive arsenal doesn't beat out a person who can literally do everything that you can possibly do on offense. That's just stupid and it defies every single meaning of logic that there could possibly be. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Give Lebron a couple more years to exit his prime and see his career numbers dwindle, but for now Lebron's prime can't beat Wilt's all time career, highs and lows.


To exit his prime? He's 28 years old. That's almost to the point where someone is just entering his prime. We've got about 4-5 more years before we can start talking about him exiting his prime (assuming injuries don't affect him in any way).



The Big Dipper said:


> Lebron score 17/20
> Wilt score 19/20
> 
> :twoguns:


:gay:

That's your best argument? And above all of that, you criticize me for not answering the questions of a guy who I had blocked, but now you don't want to answer the question that Luke had for you? Here it is incase you missed it.



Luke said:


> Why do people consider Wilt never fouling out a good thing again?
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Your hypocrisy is hilarious because it's so obvious. I also love how there's so many points from my previous post that you just completely dogged and didn't even bother answering about, like the MVP's or the playoff stats, just because you know they don't favor you in this situation. Go ahead and feel free to answer Luke's question while I wait for you to come up with some decent minded arguments.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> I decided to do the calculations myself, and when rounded, his 50 points per game season if playing in todays game with the same FG% and same FT% would become a 32.5 points per game season.
> 
> Now remember, you're basing this off of the assumption that his FG% would be this good. Lebron James I know for a fact would be able to shoot 48% from the field if he played in Wilt's era because he is just that good. Wilt's FG%, unless he developed some more skills that would let him be able to dominate inside like he could in our era, would most likely go down. Now Wilt was good at developing skills in other areas, so I'm sure he would've been able to develop the necessary skills to be good enough in todays game. But if he played like he did back then in todays game, that 32.5 per game season would be more like a 20 per game season, 25 at the most.
> 
> Now, the rebounding scenario I think you have correct, but I actually think Wilt's assists would go up. It's not like Wilt wasn't a good passer, he was still a great passer. He was simply forced to start passing the ball, but despite that, he was still at least decent at doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> And why is that a bad thing? Keep in mind that Wilt only played in the league for 14 years. Apart from his 13th and 14th year, Lebron's stats are either going to get more impressive at an unreal rate like they are now, or he will stop improving and they will only improve a little bit. If we go by a 14 year to 14 year comparison here, Lebron will win this one out, no question's asked.
> 
> So if anything I'm doing Wilt a favor here. Lebron career averages will only improve as his seasons continue until he gets to the point where he's out of his prime, which won't happen until about his 14th or 15th year.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it does. Why? Because these seasons being past his scoring prime don't exist. It wasn't like he lost any skills or anything when it came to scoring as he got into the latter part of his career, he didn't really need much skills to begin with. He already had an unfair advantage over his opponents and that didn't change as he got older. The reason his average went down is because he shot the ball less, as you stated before, and was forced to become more of a team player. Now I don't think that's a bad thing, in fact if anything that adds on to his greatness.
> 
> 
> 
> How is that anything close to this? That's much shorter amount of years and that's involving one particular subject. And lets keep something in mind here. I'm not using stats here to back up my claims. I'm using my knowledge of the game here, something anyone would use when comparing someone like Wilt to someone who played in our times. The only one who started using the stats argument here was you. I decided to use it to play along with your little game and I've been using it against you to prove your own points wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say obviously, like I said, it's close. But Wilt beats out Lebron for this one (I only say it's close because I haven't seen enough of Wilt's defense on a per minute basis in a game to say it, but from what I've seen I see no reason why he shouldn't be a better defender.)
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say it was a negative, I was saying not to overrate his passing abilities because his height was a huge factor in his ability to get those passes. (Same goes for you Magic.)
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean AGAINST centers? My calculation of 51.5 per game was made off of the assumption that Lebron shot the ball as many times as Wilt did in his 50.4 points per season game with the same FG% as he had in his third season of his career, which was 48%. Where does the "against centers" part come in? There are other players out there on the floor who aren't centers, you do understand that right? Try actually reading the post and understanding the point.
> 
> And also, Lebron currently does that against a lot more centers right now anyways since he likes to drive the ball into the lane a lot. So again, what exactly are you trying to say here?
> 
> 
> 
> I'll have to take a look at those later and I'll get back to you on those.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually wouldn't. I value the opinions of an NBA player highly over anyone elses on this site or on those sites I made because they know more about the game than any of us. Sure it's their opinion but I won't shove it aside like it's nothing, I'll still strongly consider what they said.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh there's a lot more I could show you, but I wasn't sure if you wanted to spend hours watching interviews and documentaries.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean despite the fact that I rarely can ever prove Luke wrong? Like I said before I'm willing to admit when I am wrong, this imaginary mindset that you've decided to give me is cute, thanks for the laugh, but rather than make jokes about my personal life I suggest you try to stop making your own arguments and proof look like complete jokes first.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, 8/10? Before I even tell you what I think about his defense, or his offense for that matter, let me ask you a question. How many games that featured Lebron have you watched recently, or at all for that matter? (This doesn't include the all star games).
> 
> 
> 
> His defense is a 9 at best, remember he did a lot of blocks that in todays game would be considered goal tends, his offense you literally couldn't be more wrong on. Probably a 6/10, 7 at the most. Again, a limited offensive arsenal doesn't beat out a person who can literally do everything that you can possibly do on offense. That's just stupid and it defies every single meaning of logic that there could possibly be.
> 
> 
> 
> To exit his prime? He's 28 years old. That's almost to the point where someone is just entering his prime. We've got about 4-5 more years before we can start talking about him exiting his prime (assuming injuries don't affect him in any way).
> 
> 
> 
> :gay:
> 
> That's your best argument? And above all of that, you criticize me for not answering the questions of a guy who I had blocked, but now you don't want to answer the question that Luke had for you? Here it is incase you missed it.
> 
> 
> 
> Your hypocrisy is hilarious because it's so obvious. I also love how there's so many points from my previous post that you just completely dogged and didn't even bother answering about, like the MVP's or the playoff stats, just because you know they don't favor you in this situation. Go ahead and feel free to answer Luke's question while I wait for you to come up with some decent minded arguments.


I didn't know Luke was talking to me I thought he was just throwing stuff out there for someone to answer. Well i think it is very impressive for a player of his defending abilities whom I rate top 5 all time to go as hard as he did and not be kicked out for fouling. It shows alot of skill to me. I mean I would cry ref favoritism but then they did change rules to stop him so I don't know why they would try to hamper his offensive game but then not call fouls on him.

As for you Irving I think I have made my point, as of right now Wilt is better, Lebron could surpass him but he hasn't. Could he? sure anybody could but let's compare careers before we both keep ****ing with calculating percentages and shit.

The original question which brought us here, and the reason I am done "arguing" is because that is what you want an argument, you like to debate and that is what you want if we bring up 10 points and I respond to 7 of them with opinions and facts. You bring up 10 more points for the previous 7 points and before I know it I have to respond to 700 points or else I am dodging and a hypocrite.

It started with how we can't use rings to gauge who is better individually then you want to bring up what bloggers say now you want to pick MVPs and then All-star MVPs come on I don't have that kind of time. It should be obvious why those don't show who is better individually.

I will say this I think Wilt is the best individual player of all time. He, despite whatever you think about offensive arsenal, was one of the best if not the best scorer of all time. If he was so predictable and had just 1 shot why did nobody stop him? There were players his height? And when there weren't they double and triple teamed him. Why did he still get monster points if he just had 1 go to move? 

Anywho we can go on for days I think Bill Russell who was not as good as him individually, statistically and by that I mean he did not put the ball in the basket more and he did not stop others from doing it more. 

However Russell was smarter he sacrificed parts of his game to win, he would coach players on just doing the best they could on defense and he would handle the rest, he would be a team player and make his teams better.

So while Russell had a great coach who I am sure instilled that on him he was not individually better player than Wilt. Russell had the better team 7-8 out of ten times also.

However he did do just as good a job as Russell at being a team player and sacrificing his game for the team but Wilt didn't do that till the end of his career. So while he still did just as good a job as Rusell in that regard he only did it for the last 1/4 of his career not like Russell who did it his entire career, so point to russell.

Wilt took it easy on people he did not have the fiery drive Bill Russell, MJ or Kobe have. He has said himself and no Wilt lovers can argue and Wilt haters love to quote, that although he loved basketball it didn't consume him he didn't have to vomit before games like Bill Russell or physically and verbally attack teammates like Jordan.


He had other stuff on his plate, he would play with the Globetrotters every summer he was in the NBA because that was fun he enjoyed that. He would disappear to Europe etc. He almost quit basketball because he was quadruple teamed in college. He started racking up assists to prove he could, he stopped scoring later on and concentrated on defense to show people he could be a team player. 

HE DID NOT HAVE A KILLER INSTINCT, not because he couldn't but because he was above that shit. He knew basketball was just a game. 

So with all that said he still DOMINATED everybody in the league and set and broke 60 records and he faced some of the best ever in Russell, Alcindor/Jabbar, Unseld, Bellamy, and many many many more.

So while he may have lacked intangibles and better teammates that perhaps hampered him winning 10 straight titles, on an individual scale he had it all defense and offense. So as far as an individual basis goes he is top 3 scorer all time at least, top 5 defender all time, and the most dominant force in the history of the game, MJ and Shaq included. 

So while I would love to keep getting caught in your web I am done. Sorry dude, look up what those Frazier and Jabbar said and have a good day.

P.S didn't mean to insult your personal life I hit too close to home and I am sorry.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Krstic All-Star said:


> Anyone else amused at the fact that the Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" thread has revolved around whether LeBron could surpass Wilt?


I guess no one thought there would be people on this website who would actually consider Wilt Chamberlin to be the GOAT. There are those rare occurences though.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> I didn't know Luke was talking to me I thought he was just throwing stuff out there for someone to answer. Well i think it is very impressive for a player of his defending abilities whom I rate top 5 all time to go as hard as he did and not be kicked out for fouling. It shows alot of skill to me. I mean I would cry ref favoritism but then they did change rules to stop him so I don't know why they would try to hamper his offensive game but then not call fouls on him.


Wait what? Go as hard as he did? You are aware that Wilt, for the most part, got his blocks by doing constant goal tends and using his athelticism to block a person who had just shot the ball right? Assuming he had around 5 blocks per game, only about 1 of those blocks would be actual legal blocks in todays game. His awareness was still amazing but in todays game there's only so far you can go with that.





The Big Dipper said:


> As for you Irving I think I have made my point, as of right now Wilt is better, Lebron could surpass him but he hasn't. Could he? sure anybody could but let's compare careers before we both keep ****ing with calculating percentages and shit.


You still have yet to present any actual evidence that proves Wilt is any better than Lebron is when going by a season by season comparison. All you've done is rely heavily on stats over and over again and completely disregard personal skill and what either person could do in the others generation.



The Big Dipper said:


> The original question which brought us here, and the reason I am done "arguing" is because that is what you want an argument, you like to debate and that is what you want if we bring up 10 points and I respond to 7 of them with opinions and facts. You bring up 10 more points for the previous 7 points and before I know it I have to respond to 700 points or else I am dodging and a hypocrite.


I didn't start the argument. I simply jumped right in because I disagreed with it. You had the choice to either back out and save yourself the embaressement that you caused yourself already or continue on with it. You chose to continue on with it. Don't put it soley on me, you have just as much of a part to do with it as I do, again, stop with the hypocricy already. 



The Big Dipper said:


> It started with how we can't use rings to gauge who is better individually


That started between you and Diable, I strongly suggest you go back and re read the thread.



The Big Dipper said:


> then you want to bring up what bloggers say


You claimed no one else had the opinion I did, so I brought up what bloggers said to prove what you said wrong. I didn't realize proving you wrong was a idiotic thing to do in a debate, so excuse me for that. 



The Big Dipper said:


> now you want to pick MVPs and then All-star MVPs come on I don't have that kind of time.


You wanted me to give you facts, so I gave you facts. Again, don't blame me for doing something that YOU wanted me to do in the first place. And you're questioning why I'm calling you a hypocrite?



The Big Dipper said:


> It should be obvious why those don't show who is better individually.


...no, it actually shouldn't. In fact it isn't. Please do explain it to me.



The Big Dipper said:


> I will say this I think Wilt is the best individual player of all time. He, despite whatever you think about offensive arsenal, was one of the best if not the best scorer of all time. If he was so predictable and had just 1 shot why did nobody stop him?


There are so many things wrong with this statement I don't even know where to begin. First off your claim of him being one of the best scorers of all time is very laughable. One of the most dominant scorers is a better way of doing it, because that definitely defines Wilt. But in terms of being the BEST scorer, he doesn't fit that catagory. 




The Big Dipper said:


> There were players his height? And when there weren't they double and triple teamed him. Why did he still get monster points if he just had 1 go to move?


I'm going to give you a challenge. Name three players that were the same height as Wilt and played during Wilt's first seven seasons. I'll go ahead and watch you struggle with that one.

And being triple teamed doesn't do much when you're still a lot taller than the others and more athletic to the point where you can just jump, catch the ball, keep your hands up, and just finger roll the ball in (which, I'll admit, Wilt had a deadly finger roll). That's basic common sense 101 dude. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Anywho we can go on for days I think Bill Russell who was not as good as him individually, statistically and by that I mean he did not put the ball in the basket more and he did not stop others from doing it more.
> 
> However Russell was smarter he sacrificed parts of his game to win, he would coach players on just doing the best they could on defense and he would handle the rest, he would be a team player and make his teams better.
> 
> So while Russell had a great coach who I am sure instilled that on him he was not individually better player than Wilt. Russell had the better team 7-8 out of ten times also.
> 
> However he did do just as good a job as Russell at being a team player and sacrificing his game for the team but Wilt didn't do that till the end of his career. So while he still did just as good a job as Rusell in that regard he only did it for the last 1/4 of his career not like Russell who did it his entire career, so point to russell.


When I hear the conversations of Wilt vs Bill Russell, I personally think Wilt wins. Why? Because here you have two guys who were very similar players. But the thing is, Wilt usually outplayed Russell (except for in the playoffs, but that's another story). Russell is without a doubt the better defensive player but when it comes to other areas Wilt wins it. These guys you can compare just by going off of stats because of the era they played in. And in this type of debate, rings WOULD be irrelevant, because although Russell flat out destroyed Wilt in that one series where he held him to 8 points in one game, they only played each other twice in the finals I believe (I honestly can't remember). Every other time in the playoffs Russell had a much better team.



The Big Dipper said:


> Wilt took it easy on people he did not have the fiery drive Bill Russell, MJ or Kobe have. He has said himself and no Wilt lovers can argue and Wilt haters love to quote, that although he loved basketball it didn't consume him he didn't have to vomit before games like Bill Russell or physically and verbally attack teammates like Jordan.
> 
> 
> He had other stuff on his plate, he would play with the Globetrotters every summer he was in the NBA because that was fun he enjoyed that. He would disappear to Europe etc. He almost quit basketball because he was quadruple teamed in college. He started racking up assists to prove he could, he stopped scoring later on and concentrated on defense to show people he could be a team player.
> 
> HE DID NOT HAVE A KILLER INSTINCT, not because he couldn't but because he was above that shit. He knew basketball was just a game.


So because he's Wilt Chamberlin, he suddenly gets a free pass for not having a killer instinct? Did you even read what you typed? This is a big part of the reason as to why Wilt is not the GOAT, and can never be the GOAT. Being a dominant player is only half the battle. It is just a game, but the objective of the game is to win. If you aren't willing to win, why should you be considered the best player? Because you aren't at this point. 

No one would want someone who isn't willing to do everything they possibly can. No one. That's not a GOAT in any sense of the word, no matter how dominant they are in the regular season. The playoffs is the only thing that matters, and any athlete would tell you this. You need to start understanding that.



The Big Dipper said:


> So with all that said he still DOMINATED everybody in the league and set and broke 60 records and he faced some of the best ever in Russell, Alcindor/Jabbar, Unseld, Bellamy, and many many many more.


Yea, in the regular season. Big whoop. Again, regular season doesn't matter. There's a reason why people say "Lebron needs to avoid becoming the next Wilt Chamberlin". 



The Big Dipper said:


> So while he may have lacked intangibles and better teammates that perhaps hampered him winning 10 straight titles, on an individual scale he had it all defense and offense. So as far as an individual basis goes he is top 3 scorer all time at least, top 5 defender all time, and the most dominant force in the history of the game, MJ and Shaq included.


On an individual basis? Okay so that means a statistical basis right? If so, then he's 4th, not 3rd. 



The Big Dipper said:


> So while I would love to keep getting caught in your web I am done. Sorry dude, look up what those Frazier and Jabbar said and have a good day.


Did that already, Kareem's statement is an absolute joke, once again mentioning the 50 point per game season and completely disregarding not only the unfair advantage Wilt had but also the fast pace they played at. 

And both he and I seem to have different opinions of what a good scorer is. My view of a good scorer is someone who scores at an good rate because they are simply that good. I'm almost certain that if Wilt went one on one with Hakeem, Wilt would get flat out destroyed. You can put Jordan against any guard that ever played in the NBA and it's almost a guarantee that Jordan would win by at least ten points. Jordan was simply impossible to guard. 



The Big Dipper said:


> P.S didn't mean to insult your personal life I hit too close to home and I am sorry.


Dude, I wasn't mad at all about it or anything, I simply suggested that you need to stop worrying about my own personal life and focus more on your own points in the debate. I don't get offended by things said on the internet, they're words, nothing more.


----------



## Mattsanity

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

what the heck is going on here


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I brought up Wilt's lack of a killer instinct to show that he may have some intangibles lacking but even when he was not going 100% he still dominated. As an individual player he has set the bar so high. No player has done what he has done Lebron included. I even broke down the pace for you since that what you cried about for 10 posts and I guess you still refuse to get that.

As for Wilt being too strong fast and too much for the dwarfs who played center in the 60's.

The average height for a center was 6-9.5 in converse so I will say 6-9.

The average height today for centers is 6-11 in shoes the average addition is 1.5 inches so 6-11 becomes 6-9.5, centers today are .5 inches taller than in 1964.

Here is a photo of a Bill Russell listed 6-9 in converse and at the nice ripe old age of 100 curved back and all standing next to an in uniform "6-11" Dwight Howard. Why are they the same height?

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/373/84800069w.jpg

Every player in todays game has 1-2.5 inches added to their height. Wilt was a legit 7-1, but that doesn't matter we have seen many players taller than him why did they not dominate more than him? 

Why aren't Manute Bol, George Murusean, and Yao Ming considered the greatest centers to every play? 

Wilt dominated because he was a better athlete than any player, his high jump was 6-6, 100 yard dash in 10.9 1.5 seconds slower than the world record, and had a 40 yard dash in 4.4 which is how fast Lebron does it. Shot put 53 feet 4 inches which at the time was 6 feet short of the world record, and broad jumped 22 feet. And from a standing position could get within inches of the top of the backboard, as seen in this video of an all star game where he is 36 years old https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXzPvmCfVI. He gets his fingers halfway between the top of the square and the top of the back board which is 12-6 his arms stretch standing 9.6 that is a 36 inch vert for a 36 year old in an actual game. Not a gym with multiple tests. All this in addition to being 7-1 300+ pounds.

This is with 0000000000 modern medicine and training. Wilt was better because he was the better athlete. On top of all that he had a great knack for the game and had great balance, timing and awareness.

Why use how strong, fast, and more athletic someone is against them? Michael Jordan had a vertical of 48 no one says "how can you not understand that Michael jumped higher than others in that time" as argueent to how Jordan can't handle this era, nor did they say that of David Thompson or Lebron so why should they say that about Wilt? For any frame he was an amazing athlete, to do what he did at 7-1 and 275-315 lbs is INSANE. So please refrain from saying he was better because he was taller.

Does this handle your arguement of him playing against midgets and your other arguement of he just dominated because he was tall? 

Did me adjusting the Pace handle your pace arguement? Can you answer why no one could stop Wilt if he supposedly had no arsenal. How do you not stop somebody who has no arsenal?

Do you have some underlying idea, even if Wilt was a freak athlete and with adjusted pace stats still beats Lebron, that those players can not compete with today's athletes? Is that why there is so much resistance to Wilt being better. Does me showing you these things just conflict with a very stable fixed idea you have that the athletes of the 60's and 70 can't hang with todays?


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard anyone mention "competition." Can we honestly say that Wilt's competition was on the same level as Jordan's or Lebron's? Also, since the entire world is so obsessed with who is GOAT then why don't someone just make a formula to determine GOAT? 

Finally, from my experience it is difficult to change anyone's mind about GOAT, whether you use statistics or not. Wilt will always be GOAT in one person's mind, and Jordan, Bird or KAJ to someone else. To be honest, I have heard great arguments that Scottie Pippen was better than Michael Jordan.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



JBKB said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard anyone mention "competition." Can we honestly say that Wilt's competition was on the same level as Jordan's or Lebron's? Also, since the entire world is so obsessed with who is GOAT then why don't someone just make a formula to determine GOAT?
> 
> Finally, from my experience it is difficult to change anyone's mind about GOAT, whether you use statistics or not. Wilt will always be GOAT in one person's mind, and Jordan, Bird or KAJ to someone else. To be honest, I have heard great arguments that Scottie Pippen was better than Michael Jordan.


Beat it kid.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

So is it safe to say that Lebron has passed Shaq in most people's minds? Tim Duncan?


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Dornado said:


> So is it safe to say that Lebron has passed Shaq in most people's minds? Tim Duncan?


Not mine, assuming we're talking resumes and the totality of their careers as opposed to peak performance. He will, but not yet.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



hobojoe said:


> Not mine, assuming we're talking resumes and the totality of their careers as opposed to peak performance. He will, but not yet.


concur


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I'd have him slightly ahead of Shaq as a player, but not on his career. Shaq really didn't sustain the same level of play as long as a GOAT candidate should. He and Duncan are pretty close in my opinion, but Lebron has got to do more to get up into the area where I rate Duncan. Duncan has stayed great with a little dip, he's still a great player this year and his impact on the Spurs is being completely overlooked because they are viewed as boring and the media likes to talk about other teams.

If Lebron continues to play at the level he is now for another five years he's going to be right there with Magic. He's got to get better to get seriously compared to MJ in my mind, but those are the only guys I believe will be rated better than him if he does what he needs to do. Reason I doubt that he can become the GOAT in most minds is that I don't think the Heat will be able to sustain the type of supporting cast required to win enough rings. I like to judge players as such, but the General public and the writers will base it largely upon whether or not Lebron played on great teams.


----------



## kwyjibo

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

It's possible. He needs at least 6 championships. He will certainly end his career with greater totals than MJ since he will almost certainly play more seasons. And this season, at age 28, Lebron is having a better season than MJ did at the same age.

This is exactly why Jordan never has anything genuinely good to say about LeBron. It's always, "he's good, but..." Like how he said Kobe is better. Really? What a joke. At this point, there's no comparison between the two. Jordan knows his opinion carries weight, and knows exactly what he's doing. As much as I respect Jordan for his game and unrivaled drive to win, he's a petty man. Both for the things he says, and for his snobbery (insane prices on sneakers, rarely giving back, his inaccessibility, etc).


----------



## Dornado

Jordan didn't say that Kobe was better _now_


----------



## kwyjibo

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Dornado said:


> Jordan didn't say that Kobe was better _now_


He's implying who he'd take right now, since he's mentioning Kobe's age and including KD in the conversation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QVHYqoxp6Y


----------



## Dornado

I guess... the first thing he says though is that Lebron is the more dominant player right now.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Jordan never says good things about Lebron because he knows that he has a chance to surpass him. He says all this stuff about Kobe in the full knowledge that no one save lunatics would think that he is even on the same plane as Jordan. Michael Jordan is the great of all time and he has an ego to go along with it, he has no intention of ever giving way to anyone else in this sort of conversation.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Diable said:


> Jordan never says good things about Lebron because he knows that he has a chance to surpass him. He says all this stuff about Kobe in the full knowledge that no one save lunatics would think that he is even on the same plain as Jordan.


That explains why Jordan used to diss Tmac back in the day?

I think Jordan likes Kobe because he sees himself in him. A hyper-competitive prick that's fanatical with winning. Lebron couldn't win until he stopped dancing on the sidelines and coordinating team pregame posing routines. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## yodurk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Diable said:


> Jordan never says good things about Lebron because he knows that he has a chance to surpass him. He says all this stuff about Kobe in the full knowledge that no one save lunatics would think that he is even on the same plane as Jordan. Michael Jordan is the great of all time and he has an ego to go along with it, he has no intention of ever giving way to anyone else in this sort of conversation.


Meh...not sure I agree with this.

Jordan has an ego, true, but I tend to think it has more to do with Kobe taking the game more seriously and that competitive edge that very few have. IMO, Jordan's perception of Lebron (like many in the public) is that Lebron excels more on talent than on personal drive and/or working harder than the next guy. Jordan and Kobe are cut from the same cloth in that you'll never find anyone who works harder. Lebron works hard I'm sure but it's his once in a generation natural talent that really has allowed him to excel. Plus let's be honest, Lebron is the one who has put on TV special for himself, dancing in all-star games and on the sidelines during games, etc. I bet Jordan hates that stuff...


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Lebron doesn't need 6 rings to catch Jordan. 4-5 chips with 4-5 Finals MVPs should do it.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> Lebron doesn't need 6 rings to catch Jordan. 4-5 chips with 4-5 Finals MVPs should do it.


Why not? What exactly has Lebron achieved (or you expect him to achieve) that would compensate for winning fewer championships than MJ?

On top of that I am surprised so few people here are mentioning the fact that Jordan was the unquestioned best player and leader of a team that won 72 frigging games. He also had a season with 69 wins and another with 67 wins. Isn't winning the ultimate metric of greatness?


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



yodurk said:


> Why not? What exactly has Lebron achieved (or you expect him to achieve) that would compensate for winning fewer championships than MJ?
> 
> On top of that I am surprised so few people here are mentioning the fact that Jordan was the unquestioned best player and leader of a team that won 72 frigging games. He also had a season with 69 wins and another with 67 wins. Isn't winning the ultimate metric of greatness?


I don't really think regular season win totals should be high up on the list when we're evaluating the players in a GOAT conversation, but since you brought it up I'd say that LeBron winning 66 games with Mo Williams and a 33-year-old Zydrunas Ilgauskas as his top teammates is as impressive if not more impressive than 72 games with Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Lebron's dragging of overmanned Cleveland teams to great regular seasons is something that always seems to count against him. They kept winning in the regular season in spite of not having a stellar supporting cast and then everyone claimed that this meant that Lebron should have won more in the playoffs, without ever mentioning that Mo Williams always turned out to be Mo Williams when the playoffs started.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> I brought up Wilt's lack of a killer instinct to show that he may have some intangibles lacking but even when he was not going 100% he still dominated. As an individual player he has set the bar so high. No player has done what he has done Lebron included. I even broke down the pace for you since that what you cried about for 10 posts and I guess you still refuse to get that.


To get what? What am I refusing to get here? Your post doesn't make any sense. Are you referring to the part where you tried to show how much Wilt would score if he played in todays game? Is that it? If so, what am I refusing to understand? I understand that, unlike you, he wouldn't be putting up great amounts of points off of 50% shooting if he had the skillset today that he had back then. Somehow your brain cells are failing miserably in the simple process of understanding that.



The Big Dipper said:


> Every player in todays game has 1-2.5 inches added to their height. Wilt was a legit 7-1, but that doesn't matter we have seen many players taller than him why did they not dominate more than him?


1. None of them where anywhere close to being as athletically gifted as him.
2. They couldn't spend all day standing in the lane because the NBA created the 3 second rule, something Wilt thrived off of using when he played, adding to my point that he wouldn't be anywhere close to being as dominant today as he was back then.
3. They can't goal tend.
4. A much different pace and people actually know how to defend those type of players today. And since the pace is different, it's a lot easier for people to actually get their defense set and at times easily prevent the so called tall player from easily getting the ball.
5. A good amount of those people taller than him weren't stat hogs like Wilt was.

Seriously, you needed me to explain that one to you?



The Big Dipper said:


> Why aren't Manute Bol, George Murusean, and Yao Ming considered the greatest centers to every play?


Well first off, if you're implying that Wilt is considered by many the greatest center to ever play the game, you are sadly mistakin. Hell I decided to look through 8 different lists after typing in "top ten best centers in NBA history" and I was only able to find one list that had Wilt at number 1 (and that same list had Yao Ming at number 9...yea shows you how legit that list was). You are a part of a small minority of people who are actually dimwitted enough to think Wilt is still the greatest to ever play the game, and the fact that after all this debating that you still can't figure out why people don't consider him the greatest is pretty sad.



The Big Dipper said:


> Wilt dominated because he was a better athlete than any player, his high jump was 6-6, 100 yard dash in 10.9 1.5 seconds slower than the world record, and had a 40 yard dash in 4.4 which is how fast Lebron does it. Shot put 53 feet 4 inches which at the time was 6 feet short of the world record, and broad jumped 22 feet. And from a standing position could get within inches of the top of the backboard, as seen in this video of an all star game where he is 36 years old https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXzPvmCfVI. He gets his fingers halfway between the top of the square and the top of the back board which is 12-6 his arms stretch standing 9.6 that is a 36 inch vert for a 36 year old in an actual game. Not a gym with multiple tests. All this in addition to being 7-1 300+ pounds.
> 
> This is with 0000000000 modern medicine and training. Wilt was better because he was the better athlete. On top of all that he had a great knack for the game and had great balance, timing and awareness.


Wilt was the better player because he was the better athlete? By that dumbass argument Nate Robinson is a top ten player in the NBA right now because boy oh boy that kid can jump. Look you can praise his athleticism all you want, and I'll agree with it, I think he's the better athlete of the two, but that doesn't change the fact that Wilt had limited skills where as Lebron can pretty much do anything in the NBA with relative ease. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Why use how strong, fast, and more athletic someone is against them? Michael Jordan had a vertical of 48 no one says "how can you not understand that Michael jumped higher than others in that time" as argueent to how Jordan can't handle this era,


Because 90% of the reason as to why he dominated the game of basketball wasn't because of his athleticism. Again, you seriously needed me to explain that one to you? 



The Big Dipper said:


> nor did they say that of David Thompson or Lebron so why should they say that about Wilt?


Because if Wilt didn't have that insane athleticism, he would not have dominated the league in the way he did. He probably would've scored a lot, but his points per game amount would have easily been two times less than what it was if it wasn't for his athleticism. And the same goes with his rebounding (well, okay not by that much, he still would have averaged at least 20 rebounds per game) and his blocks per game. 

I feel like I'm talking to Drizzay right now that's how stupid your questions have been.

F


The Big Dipper said:


> or any frame he was an amazing athlete, to do what he did at 7-1 and 275-315 lbs is INSANE. So please refrain from saying he was better because he was taller.


Yea, no, I will continue to say he was better because he was taller because the truth is, he was better because he was taller. You're probably the first person on the face of this earth to ever say that Wilt's height didn't play a big part in his dominance. There are numerous NBA players who have pointed that out, when you read the articles about him, they point out his height and how dominant he was because of it. Hell you can even go on his bio and they will most likely point it out. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Does this handle your arguement of him playing against midgets and your other arguement of he just dominated because he was tall?


Again, I strongly recommend you stop trying to change the way I say things. It doesn't help you at all. I clearly stated that his height and athleticism were both tools that he had that played a huge part in his dominance. I stated this from the very start at the same time, don't make it sound like I stated one thing and then decided to randomly bring up the other. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Did me adjusting the Pace handle your pace arguement? Can you answer why no one could stop Wilt if he supposedly had no arsenal. How do you not stop somebody who has no arsenal?


No, it really didn't. Again, you have to take into account how much skill a player like him would need to be great in todays game. He had limited offensive abilities, though the ones he had were great, they wouldn't be enough for him to be averaging 30 points per game in todays pace like you suggested he would. When I did it with Lebron, it made sense because he actually has skills in a variety of areas and it's in a era where Lebron would be a lot stronger and faster than everyone else and can shoot the ball from virtually anywhere on the floor. Wilt doesn't not have a dominant post game (he had a good post game but it wasn't anything to go crazy over) nor does he have incredible foot work. And he would need both of those if he wanted to put up large amount of points unless he was able to develop a consistent mid range jumper and improved his free throw shooting. Being good at doing finger rolls won't get you 30 points per game, not in today's game.

And once again, I already answered why no one could have stopped Wilt. Because he was taller and more athletic than everyone else. That is probably the sixth time now I have said this at least. I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand it but for the sake of the rules on this site I'll avoid saying the suggestion for why that might be.



The Big Dipper said:


> Do you have some underlying idea, even if Wilt was a freak athlete and with adjusted pace stats still beats Lebron, that those players can not compete with today's athletes? Is that why there is so much resistance to Wilt being better. Does me showing you these things just conflict with a very stable fixed idea you have that the athletes of the 60's and 70 can't hang with todays?


This entire statement just screams stupidity, how you came up with this conclusion is baffling. I guess I'll take care of the idiotic part first (well I guess that's the whole thing but the most noticable one first), I believe there are some players from that time who would still be great in todays game, while there are others that wouldn't. Jerry West was an outstanding basketball player, regardless of the era he played in. Bobby Jones was a terrific shooter and was ahead of his time, but I doubt he would be so relevant in todays game, even though he would still be an all star. Russell would still be a terrific defender. 

With that said, 90% of the players from Wilt's era didn't even go above Wilt's shoulders when you stand them up against each other. Their skills have absolutely nothing to do with their inability to guard Wilt or to not have Wilt block the shit out of them on a nightly basis. I have no idea how you were able to come up with that conclusion, I have an urge to bash my head against a wall repeaditly when I think about it because it makes no sense. 

It seems like you have this strange idea fixtated in your head that because people are tall, they must be good. That's the only explanation I can think of for the things you've been saying. It's either that, or you are either incredibly biased towards Wilt, and refuse to admit to his own faults and the fact that he was good at best when it came to a skills standpoint and just benefited from the fact that the game was still growing and had a lot of faults, or you have no knowledge what so ever of how the game is played. You know absolutely nothing at all about the game in anyway and your views on how great someone is, is based completely off of stats and nothing else. 

At this point though I'm starting to believe it's all three of those things. I haven't seen you at any point ever agree on his faults (like I agreed on Lebron's), but instead you would just make excuses for those faults and try to in a screwed up way make him seem greater because of it. But I'll let you decide, which one of those are you?

P.S. didn't you say you were done a couple posts ago?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



yodurk said:


> Why not? What exactly has Lebron achieved (or you expect him to achieve) that would compensate for winning fewer championships than MJ?
> 
> On top of that I am surprised so few people here are mentioning the fact that Jordan was the unquestioned best player and leader of a team that won 72 frigging games. He also had a season with 69 wins and another with 67 wins. Isn't winning the ultimate metric of greatness?


Let me respond to that statement with a question. Why should Lebron need more TEAM achievements to prove that he individually is greater than Michael Jordan, assuming it gets to that point? And above all of that, what would Lebron NEED to achieve apart from championships to surpass Jordan? Title's don't determine who the greatest of all time is, just ask Bill Russell. But I'm sure carrying a team that was much worse than any team Jordan ever played for to the NBA finals is something that deserves some recognization, right?

Michael Jordan had a head above shoulders much better team than Lebron had in Cleveland, and in my opinion his team is still better than the one Lebron currently has in Miami. And what do you mean unquestioned best player in the NBA? Isn't that what Lebron is right now? The last time people were still questioning whether or not he was the best was in 2010 when he was still on the Cavs and people for some strange reason still thought Kobe was the best player at that point in the NBA, when the truth is Lebron has been better since 2008 (...well, okay fine 2009. Lebron still should've won the MVP award that season.)


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Yea, no, *I will continue to say he was better because he was taller because the truth is, he was better because he was taller.* You're probably the first person on the face of this earth to ever say that Wilt's height didn't play a big part in his dominance. There are numerous NBA players who have pointed that out, when you read the articles about him, they point out his height and how dominant he was because of it. Hell you can even go on his bio and they will most likely point it out.
> 
> Again, I strongly recommend you stop trying to change the way I say things. It doesn't help you at all. I clearly stated that his height and athleticism were both tools that he had that played a huge part in his dominance. I stated this from the very start at the same time, don't make it sound like I stated one thing and then decided to randomly bring up the other.
> 
> And once again, I already answered why *no one could have stopped Wilt. Because he was taller and more athletic than everyone else.* That is probably the sixth time now I have said this at least. I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand it but for the sake of the rules on this site I'll avoid saying the suggestion for why that might be.
> 
> 
> *With that said, 90% of the players from Wilt's era didn't even go above Wilt's shoulders when you stand them up against each other. Their skills have absolutely nothing to do with their inability to guard Wilt or to not have Wilt block the shit out of them on a nightly basis. *I have no idea how you were able to come up with that conclusion, I have an urge to bash my head against a wall repeaditly when I think about it because it makes no sense.


I know his size helped but it wasn't the only reason the other reason was he was stronger, faster, quicker, jumped higher and had better stamina on top of having great timing, awareness and balance.

Once again if being tall was all you needed to dominate then Manute Bol would be considered the GOAT. But I would take Ben Wallace who is 6-6,6-7 barefoot over Manute Bol.

Today's players heights are inflated in reality they are 1.5 - 2 inches shorter. Centers from today are .5 inches taller than in 1964 on average. So Wilt would still be too tall for today's player, and coupled with the fact that this is one of the worst eras for centers Wilt would have a field day. 

Per your logic Wilt was better because he was taller, so if he is taller than todays centers does that mean he would be better if he played today?

I don't think so but if you are gonna reductio ad absurdum what I say I think you will arrive at the conclusion that Wilt would be better than 90% of the centers today. I do think he would be better but not because he was taller, but because he was the better athlete, better scorer and better defender. 

Wilt would constantly abuse Bill Russell, Bill Russell is as tall if not taller than Dwight Howard, the best center in the NBA, does this mean Wilt would destroy Dwight? He would be better than Dwight based off of your height statements. He would be better than Dwight but once again not only because of height.

If skill was the only thing people needed to be in the NBA then MJ would still be playing. I have no doubt he could still shoot. However you need athleticism. So why fault Wilt for being the most athletic center ever? I mean A.I's game was built on speed and quickness but it would be dumb to blame him for being too fast and it would be dumb to blame Wilt for being too tall. Even though in todays game he would still be too tall too fast and too strong.

The 3 second rule was implemented in 1966, which funny enough is the year Wilt transformed from being an offensive monster to being the teams defensive anchor and main distributor.

In 04 they did begin to enforce it more, so let's say he can't have as big an impact on defense if they made the 3 second rule stricter, this would then make his offensive game better since others can't just stand in the lane. Note Wilt still had amazing defense after this rule so I don't see it being a problem I actually see it as being harder for defenders to guard him especially since todays there is no more hand checking.

I think Wilt's strength allowed him to out muscle people and get in to position to score, not his height. I think a skilled player isn't gonna be constantly blocked by Wilt, although even the best did. Kareem Abdul Jabbar who is also 7-1 was constantly blocked by Wilt. Not because Wilt is taller which he isn't but because Wilt had amazing timing and could jump so high. He was an amazing defender that is why he dominated on defense not because he was 7-1.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



The Big Dipper said:


> I know his size helped but it wasn't the only reason the other reason was he was stronger, faster, quicker, jumped higher and had better stamina on top of having great timing, awareness and balance.
> 
> Once again if being tall was all you needed to dominate then Manute Bol would be considered the GOAT. But I would take Ben Wallace who is 6-6,6-7 barefoot over Manute Bol.


Good job trying to twist my words around again. If you read the rest of the post I clearly stated that his crazy athleticism was another big reason for his dominance. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Today's players heights are inflated in reality they are 1.5 - 2 inches shorter. Centers from today are .5 inches taller than in 1964 on average. So Wilt would still be too tall for today's player, and coupled with the fact that this is one of the worst eras for centers Wilt would have a field day.


Actually he wouldn't. Once again, the rules back then heavily favored Wilt. The rules that where made because of him would have prevented him from being as dominant. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Per your logic Wilt was better because he was taller, so if he is taller than todays centers does that mean he would be better if he played today?


Being taller was one of the reasons, not the main and only one, again, if you tried actually reading my posts and not changing my words around, you would realize this.



The Big Dipper said:


> *I don't think so but if you are gonna reductio ad absurdum what I say I think you will arrive at the conclusion that Wilt would be better than 90% of the centers today.* I do think he would be better but not because he was taller, but because he was the better athlete, better scorer and better defender.


??

reductio ad absurdum...right. I'll ignore that entire statement until you change up the grammar on it because I have no clue what you were just trying to say there. 

But yes, I would arrive to that conclusion. I never said Wilt wouldn't still be good in todays game. He would still be an incredible rebounder, I said before that he would probably be averaging around 3 blocks per game and I still believe he would. But scoring 30 points per game? Absolutely not, 20 points per game, maybe 25 points per game as a career high at the most. But not 30. 



The Big Dipper said:


> Wilt would constantly abuse Bill Russell, Bill Russell is as tall if not taller than Dwight Howard, the best center in the NBA, does this mean Wilt would destroy Dwight? He would be better than Dwight based off of your height statements. He would be better than Dwight but once again not only because of height.


CONSTANTLY abuse him? I wouldn't go that far. He abused him a lot out there on the floor but it wasn't on a consistent basis unless all the document's I've seen regarding their rivalry were lying to me.

And again, you need to stop taking my height claims out of proportion. The reason I brought up the height is because back then, people of his height was rare. But the thing is, Wilt's athleticism sealed the deal, as I pointed out numerous times already. I don't know how you claim to the conclusion that I was simply basing my argument off of completely height, the statement you bolded sure makes it sound like that but apparently you've somehow gained the ability to completely forget about the parts where I stated that it was his height combined with his athleticism. But again, that still just favors my argument.

I want you to read this quote that I found.



> Wilt was 7-1 and 275 pounds...let's keep this in mind for a moment, while I talk about what the NBA had at center.
> 
> There were a total of 18 centers in the league in 1961-62. Only five of them (including Wilt) averaged over 30 MPG.
> 
> 
> Bill Russell was 6-9 and 215 pounds (-4 inches and -60 pounds)
> Walt Bellamy was 6-11 and 225 pounds (-2 inches and -50 pounds)
> Wayne Embry was 6-8 and 240 pounds (-5 inches and -35 pounds)
> Red Kerr was 6-9 and 230 pounds (-4 inches and -45 pounds)
> 
> Only one of those four had the height to defend Wilt, and played longer than 30 minutes per game, and that was a 225-pound Bellamy that gave up 50 pounds to Wilt.
> What about the rest?
> 
> 
> Clyde Lovellette: 6-9, 234 lbs. (only played 40 games, also)
> Phil Jordon: 6-10, 205 lbs. (a stick)
> Jim Krebs: 6-8, 230 lbs.
> Walter Dukes: 7-0, 220 lbs. (JaVale McGee, only 17 pounds LIGHTER)
> Bob Ferry: 6-8, 230 lbs.
> Charlie Tyra: 6-8, 230 lbs.
> Larry Foust: 6-9, 215 lbs.
> Darrall Imhoff: 6-10, 220 lbs. (19.8 MPG bench player behind Phil Jordon - mentioned above - in NY)
> Ray Felix: 6-11, 220 lbs. (18.5 MPG bench player behind a much smaller Jim Krebs - mentioned above - in LA)
> Hub Reed: 6-9, 215 lbs. (18.1 MPG bench player behind a smaller Wayne Embry - mentioned above - in CIN)
> Swede Halbrook: 7-3, 235 lbs. (played just 14.2 MPG behind Red Kerr, who was much smaller, and he lasted just two seasons in the league)
> Wayne Yates: 6-8, 235 lbs. (7.1 MPG, worthless)
> Bevo Nordmann: 6-10, 225 lbs. (5.9 MPG, worthless)
> 
> Wilt was, by far, the heaviest player during that season. He was also the second tallest out of the three seven-footers (the tallest being a guy that logged just 14 minutes off the bench). The other seven-footer gave up 50 pounds to Wilt.


This is the point I am trying to make. From a height standpoint and from a weight standpoint, Wilt ALREADY had an unfair advantage over his opponents. This is not including his incredible athleticism, which is far beyond the athleticism that everyone else possesses. From a skill standpoint he had limited abilities, not limited to the point where he would be useless with a 6-11 and 220 pound body, but he was limited. 

Now keep in mind, Wilt wouldn't be playing the minutes he played back then. So again, 30 points per game is not an accurate prediction of what his points per game column would be like in todays game. Back then the starters played a lot more heavier minutes (you were acting like before that Wilt was the only person that played a shitload of minutes, no, pretty much everyone who started did). 



The Big Dipper said:


> If skill was the only thing people needed to be in the NBA then MJ would still be playing. I have no doubt he could still shoot. However you need athleticism. So why fault Wilt for being the most athletic center ever?


Where are you getting this idea that I'm faulting him for it? I've done nothing but praise his athleticism. I'm saying he would need more than just athleticism. He would need more than just a great finger roll and a good post game to put up the offensive numbers you suggested he would put up. He's good enough to do 20-25, but he's most certainly not good enough to do 30, let alone be the leading scorer in the league. 



The Big Dipper said:


> I mean A.I's game was built on speed and quickness but it would be dumb to blame him for being too fast and it would be dumb to blame Wilt for being too tall. Even though in todays game he would still be too tall too fast and too strong.
> 
> The 3 second rule was implemented in 1966, which funny enough is the year Wilt transformed from being an offensive monster to being the teams defensive anchor and main distributor.


Blame Wilt for being too tall? What am I blaming him for exactly? And Iverson was a excellent player who was also a horrible team player, who's height didn't effect him when he was out on the court. That's not a very good comparison.

And wait, you said that he wasn't forced to become that type of player until he went to LA. This was two years before the matter. What happened? Please, do give me a reason to not believe that the 3 second rule coming into effect just made him much worse in terms of production and had to change to that in LA (I'm asking you because you seem to know SO much about the man, and I horribly lack the knowledge to know what kind of transitions he made in terms of the way he played at sudden occurrences like this one.)



The Big Dipper said:


> In 04 they did begin to enforce it more, so let's say he can't have as big an impact on defense if they made the 3 second rule stricter, this would then make his offensive game better since others can't just stand in the lane. Note Wilt still had amazing defense after this rule so I don't see it being a problem I actually see it as being harder for defenders to guard him especially since todays there is no more hand checking.


How exactly? First off they can stand in the lane, all they have to do is just stand there right when Wilt gets the ball. It's pretty easy basic stuff. It would all depend on the team he's on, and how good he is at creating those opportunities for himself. Wilt had a great post game (I know I said only good before but I guess I'll try to be nice here). Dominant post games are rare today. I don't know who the last great center was that dominated strictly off of post games (probably Shaq), so I'm not sure how often he would end up really using it.

Regardless, when given the kind of defense teams play today in comparison to back then, and the rules that follow, I doubt what you suggested would make Wilt's offensive abilities better to the point where it's a noticeable effect.



The Big Dipper said:


> I think Wilt's strength allowed him to out muscle people and get in to position to score, not his height. I think a skilled player isn't gonna be constantly blocked by Wilt, although even the best did.


A skilled player is going to be blocked by someone with an incredible leap and timing. It's impossible to not be. All you can do is make sure he's not around when you attempt to score.

For a good amount of time, his strength made it easy for him to get to the basket, I think in the highlight video you showed me, there were quite a few instances where he used his strength to get to the hoop and score. But when it came to putting the ball in, most of the time it was simply just him once again using his height to his advantages. 



The Big Dipper said:


> *Kareem Abdul Jabbar who is also 7-1 was constantly blocked by Wilt.* Not because Wilt is taller which he isn't but because Wilt had amazing timing and could jump so high. He was an amazing defender that is why he dominated on defense not because he was 7-1.


This is false. In a book called "Wilt Larger Than Life", I believe it said that he only blocked the shot a couple of times, but he did it more than anyone else ever did in the history of basketball. But saying he "constantly" blocked it is an absolute lie. Come on now. Don't give me utter bs like that.

And once again, I agree Wilt would be an amazing defender in todays game, but stop overrating his defensive abilities. The goal tending rule did already exist when Wilt entered the league but it wasn't enforced very well.

Now it appears that (and this is of no surprise to me) that you still don't clearly understand what I'm saying after spelling it out for you numerous times. So I'll try one more time.

I'll start with the reasoning for Wilt's dominance. First off before I mention his athleticism/height, he was a great post scorer, and he had a great finger roll. That was basically it. He had great height so it was easy for him to score when near the hoop. Now his height isn't the only thing. He was an incredible athlete. He was freakishly strong. He was the kind of guy that would make you shit yourself if he got pissed at you on the street. Physically, there was nothing anyone could do against him. 

He had good knowledge of the game as well. His timing as you pointed out before was excellent, that's part of the reason as to why he was such a good rebounder. 

But he wouldn't score 30 per game in today's era, and he certainly wouldn't be a top five scorer in the league. Why?

1. He would need more abilities on offense, a great post game won't get you 30 per game. It couldn't get Shaq that, there's no possible way it could get Wilt that. 
2. The rules don't favor him in this era.
3. He wouldn't play the same amount of minutes that he did back then.

Now it seems like you have the whole idea of the GOAT completely confused here, which would explain your horrible reasoning for your selection of Wilt as the GOAT, so I want you to do me a favor, and try to understand why people consider Michael Jordan to be greater than Wilt, or anyone for that matter. Also consider why people like Magic Johnson, or Larry Bird are considered so great, they had physical advantages over their opponents. Try to understand why they were considered so great. In fact, I want you to tell me why you think people think they're so great. And we'll go from there.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Reductio ad absurdum mean reducing to the absurd, following a statement or idea to it's illogical (or logical depending on how you look at it) and absurd extreme. For example if I said this season Kobe reached 30,000 so in 17 more years he will reach 60,000. 

I was just saying that we could reductio ad absurdum that since Wilt is taller than everyone in the game today he would still dominate. But of course that is absurd height is not the only reason he dominated.

Now I understand I was misunderstood and you actually meant Wilt dominated because his weight, height, athleticism, timing, balance, awareness, stamina, incredible defense, outstanding rebounding and great post game.

So I guess we don't disagree.

In regards to his minutes per game, yes I said his stamina and ability to play 48 minutes a game was also part of the reason he dominated, his strength on offense and defense for 48 minutes would tire out his opponents.

So when you have a player who is one of the strongest, tallest, heaviest, most athletic, players off all time as well as one who historically will out rebound you, outscore you and outblock you and will not tire nor foul out. I think you have encountered one of if not the greatest individual player of all time.

All those factors are what made him one of the greatest players off all time of course I say GOAT but it's hard for others to swallow that so I will just say he is in the highest tier along with 1-3 other players.

In regards to the minutes I think that is where his stats would fall back, I don't think coaches would be ok with Wilt doing 48 minutes a game again. Or 48.5 minutes which he averaged for a season.

However I do think he could average 42-46 minutes so no I don't see his stats suffering too much.

Wilt is the greatest individual player of all time, even his biggest critic and that little weasel Bill Simmons has admitted that. 

The man who has the gall to criticize Wilt to Bill Russell and each time Bill Russell corrects him. He thinks if he shits on Wilt he will get points with Bill, he thinks if he sucks up to him he can touch the rings. Anywho sorry I just hate Simmons such an obvious homer.

I will say Wilt is the greatest individual player off all time and in the discussion and short list for GOAT. 



XxIrvingxX said:


> Now it seems like you have the whole idea of the GOAT completely confused here, which would explain your horrible reasoning for your selection of Wilt as the GOAT, so I want you to do me a favor, and try to understand why people consider Michael Jordan to be greater than Wilt, or anyone for that matter. Also consider why people like Magic Johnson, or Larry Bird are considered so great, they had physical advantages over their opponents. Try to understand why they were considered so great. In fact, I want you to tell me why you think people think they're so great. And we'll go from there.


If it is okay with you I am not going to. I think the point about Wilt has been made which was my intention. I would love to go over what makes the GOAT player but going back and forth with you for days has become tiresome and boring. If you make a thread and others participate I would love to but just dealing with you is tiring, I don't have Wilt's stamina I can't be here forever.



XxIrvingxX said:


> P.S. didn't you say you were done a couple posts ago?


If you make another thread where others and I can go over it I'll do it. As for this, thank you I am DONE!


----------



## Luke

Pretending like Wilt could put up the same numbers today as he did then is absurd. So is anyone who has already put LeBron over Wilt.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Luke said:


> Pretending like Wilt could put up the same numbers today as he did then is absurd. So is anyone who has already put LeBron over Wilt.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Not saying I already put him over Wilt but when his career is over with I see no reason as to why anyone wouldn't put him over Wilt.

But enough about my opinion, Luke do you think he will surpass Wilt?


----------



## Luke

He hasn't passed Wilt in my mind yet so I don't see why y'all are arguing about a hypothetical. I think LeBron has a great chance to end up at the top with Jordan, Magic and Kareem but he hasn't yet.

Put it this way, I'm very confident that LeBron will go down as a better pro than Kobe. Has he had a better career in total to this point? No so I don't bring it up often. Just because he's on track for something doesn't mean that it's a forgone conclusion.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Luke said:


> Pretending like Wilt could put up the same numbers today as he did then is absurd. So is anyone who has already put LeBron over Wilt.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


prime wilt could put up shaq+++ numbers right now - no problem


----------



## Luke

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



e-monk said:


> prime wilt could put up shaq+++ numbers right now - no problem


So roughly 30/13/3 with 3 blocks a game with great intimidating D? I wouldn't argue against that. Maybe a slight dip in PPG coupled with some better D or maybe an extra dime a game or something, but not a substantial difference.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

I'd imagine around 25/15/4. I just can't see him managing those kind of scoring numbers, although it's not impossible.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Wilt was better suited than Shaq to the new rules as he was both more mobile and had more range including a jump shot out to the teens (but why use it when you can shots from 2'?) - I think 25-30 ppg at 55+% 15ish rebounds 5 or 6 dimes and a clutch of blocks, maybe even a hakeem like 2+ steals per game - the thing is that there are no beasts for him to joust with any more but the rules make it easier to double and triple him before he gets the ball in the post


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

also he played guard for the globe trotters so who knows...?


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Pretty much nothing except baseless speculation. Wilt played roughly 30% more possessions per game than Shaq I would guess. He was playing inferior competition in an era where there was basically no gameplanning during the regular season and very basic defensive schemes compared to the modern era. Absolutely no logical way to conclude that he would have been as good as Shaq, unless that is something you want to argue without anything to support it save your own imagination. The basic math indicates that it simply isn't so.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Diable said:


> Pretty much nothing except baseless speculation. Wilt played roughly 30% more possessions per game than Shaq I would guess.


your guess is excessive but here's a point you miss, he ran his ass up and down the court a lot more than Shaq had to and did it for 48 minutes a game so was much better conditioned than Shaq or any other big in the last 30 or 40 years



> He was playing inferior competition


I dont understand why people think this, by the mid 60s in an 8-10 game league he literally had to face a hall of famer every other night whereas Shaq faced a much higher frequency of stiffs over the course of the season simply because there were that many more teams




> in an era where there was basically no gameplanning during the regular season and very basic defensive schemes compared to the modern era.


 it's funny that you open your post with the phrase 'baseless speculation' and then turn around and immediately proceed to show us an excellent example of the same - he was routinely double and triple teamed, hell he left college because of the tactics teams were using against him




> Absolutely no logical way to conclude that he would have been as good as Shaq, unless that is something you want to argue without anything to support it save your own imagination. The basic math indicates that it simply isn't so.


he was stronger and more athletic and better conditioned than Shaq, there are fairly good sources to establish all that - in your terms excellent math - can you imagine Shaq winning a big 8 title in the high jump 3 years running? and though fatty weighed more (not much btw - Wilt was listed at 300 towards the end of his career) Fatty was also bigger than Duncan and Duncan routinely out played him


and he was more skilled than Shaq, there are excellent sources for that information as well (people who coached with or against him, fellow players etc)


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Completely misread Emonks post, nvm.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Luke said:


> He hasn't passed Wilt in my mind yet so I don't see why y'all are arguing about a hypothetical. I think LeBron has a great chance to end up at the top with Jordan, Magic and Kareem but he hasn't yet.
> 
> Put it this way, I'm very confident that LeBron will go down as a better pro than Kobe. Has he had a better career in total to this point? No so I don't bring it up often. Just because he's on track for something doesn't mean that it's a forgone conclusion.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


He's already had a better career than Kobe IMO and he's playing at a level over these past couple seasons that Kobe never came close to approaching.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

The answer to the question?

Nope - http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-forum/485106-one-one-ahmad-rashad-michael-jordan.html#post7332298


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

All I'm going to say is this, with 25 games left in the season, if PER is your sort of thing, the Dead President is at 31.9. Of the top ten in eFG% there are seven PF/Cs and three perimeter players, care to guess which of those perimeter guys is the best shooting an unholy (for a perimeter player) .605? Nor is that player getting the sort of bailout calls that everyone's binky du jour does (because the binky shoots 80% jumpers and yet has accumulated 40% more FTAs than the guy that takes a third of his shots in the paint).


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

If you like PER, consider this...going into this season LeBron had 3 of the top 10 statistical seasons of all-time (although the Wilt seasons are a bit skewed because of stat limitations of the time). 

1. Wilt Chamberlain 31.84 1962-63 SFW
2. Wilt Chamberlain 31.76 1961-62 PHW
3. Michael Jordan 31.71 1987-88 CHI
4. LeBron James 31.67 2008-09 CLE
5. Wilt Chamberlain 31.64 1963-64 SFW
6. Michael Jordan 31.63 1990-91 CHI
7. Michael Jordan 31.19 1989-90 CHI
8. Michael Jordan 31.14 1988-89 CHI
9. LeBron James 31.11 2009-10 CLE
10. LeBron James 30.74 2011-12 MIA

LeBron at his current pace this season will land #1 on this list (31.9), and give him 4 of the top 11 seasons of all-time. 

Notice that nowhere on this list is Kobe Bryant (Kobe's best season in PER terms ranks 49th all-time). The idea that LeBron hasn't already surpassed Kobe is a little laughable to me. Kobe will go down like Magic or Bird and LeBron will go down like Jordan, relative to the different time periods.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Sir Patchwork said:


> If you like PER, consider this...going into this season LeBron had 3 of the top 10 statistical seasons of all-time (although the Wilt seasons are a bit skewed because of stat limitations of the time).
> 
> 1. Wilt Chamberlain 31.84 1962-63 SFW
> 2. Wilt Chamberlain 31.76 1961-62 PHW
> 3. Michael Jordan 31.71 1987-88 CHI
> 4. LeBron James 31.67 2008-09 CLE
> 5. Wilt Chamberlain 31.64 1963-64 SFW
> 6. Michael Jordan 31.63 1990-91 CHI
> 7. Michael Jordan 31.19 1989-90 CHI
> 8. Michael Jordan 31.14 1988-89 CHI
> 9. LeBron James 31.11 2009-10 CLE
> 10. LeBron James 30.74 2011-12 MIA
> 
> LeBron at his current pace this season will land #1 on this list (31.9), and give him 4 of the top 11 seasons of all-time.
> 
> Notice that nowhere on this list is Kobe Bryant (Kobe's best season in PER terms ranks 49th all-time). The idea that LeBron hasn't already surpassed Kobe is a little laughable to me. Kobe will go down like Magic or Bird and LeBron will go down like Jordan, relative to the different time periods.


I have no doubts that Lebron will be a top 5 all time player when his career is over, but I don't think PER is a good source to use in this situation (despite how impressive that is). Well, okay, it is but not when comparing him to Kobe. It's already pretty obvious that when in their primes, Lebron is the better player of the two and it really isn't even close.


----------



## TexasTrill

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Wilt Chamberlain is the best NBA player ever. LeBron James can't match up to Wilt statistically, and doesn't have the championships to outdo him there either. Wilt was a once in life time athlete, 7' 1" in socks, could bench press at least 400lbs, at LEAST a 45in vert in his prime, had a jump shot, led the NBA in assists, scoring, and rebounds, at different times. He also was a college track athlete, high jumped 6' 6" without really practicing, ran the 100 meter dash in under 11 seconds. Played against another candidate for GOAT, Bill Russell over a hundred times in his career,(before you say his competition was bad NBA players were measured in socks back then, instead of in basketball shoes. Ex. Bill Russell and Dwight Howard are actually both 6' 9") If LeBron is able to win 5 championships I would say he would have surpassed Jordan. Jordan was a selfish player, who needed superstar calls in order to win chamionships. The fact that Kobe Bryant has been able to duplicate Jordan's game so easily is a testament to how overrated he is. Jordan failed in the playoffs time and time again, just as James did, if he is able to win we will forget about his past failures just as we did about Jordan's. LeBron is well on is way to being better than the most popular NBA player ever.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Wait...you're sad that you get to watch the possible GOAT in his prime?


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Why is everyone obsessed with his high jump? It's not very good. 6'6 high jump well win high school meets but lose state and collegiate. For a 7' to get that high he only needs to have a 20 or so inch vertical. You just have to get the belly button over


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Hyperion said:


> Why is everyone obsessed with his high jump? It's not very good. 6'6 high jump well win high school meets but lose state and collegiate. For a 7' to get that high he only needs to have a 20 or so inch vertical. You just have to get the belly button over


wilt was reputed to have a 48 inch vertical.

and if it were really that easy only the really tall would compete in that event.

the reality is wilt was naturally gifted who was one of the innovators of basketball in the area of weight training, much like jordan's work with tim grover a couple of decades later.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

an argument for lebron's greatness vs. jordan's is in his efficiency vs. the league in this day and age.

scouting is much improved now than in jordan's heyday.

there is more of an emphasis on defense than when jordan was playing .

the league's field goal avg. was .480 or better 9 straight years starting in 1979-80 to 87-88

in jordan's best season fg% wise in 90-91 he shot .539 with an efg% of .547 the league avg. was .474 the efg% .487

currently lebron is shooting .564 from the field with an efg% of .602

the league avg. in fg% is .451 efg% .494


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

regarding PER, it's not useful to compare PER across seasons since the metric average is adjusted each season

regarding verticals both Wilt and Russell were reputed to be able to scoop quarters off the top of the back board fwiw


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Da Grinch said:


> in jordan's best season fg% wise in 90-91 he shot .539 with an efg% of .547 the league avg. was .474 the efg% .487
> 
> currently lebron is shooting .564 from the field with an efg% of .602
> 
> the league avg. in fg% is .451 efg% .494


Good stuff. Those are pretty staggering numbers.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



e-monk said:


> regarding PER, it's not useful to compare PER across seasons since the metric average is adjusted each season
> 
> regarding verticals both Wilt and Russell were reputed to be able to scoop quarters off the top of the back board fwiw


actually because PER is adjusted its a more useful tool in comparing players, its based on the average per minute stats of that season , if it didn't it would be useless.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

e-monk's point is valid. PER does not solely upon your individual performance. It depends upon the performance of every player in the NBA in a single season. PER is calculated so that the statistical average of NBA players is 16 (maybe 15, someone can look it up if they care) and your individual PER is your box score production relative to the production of every other player in the league that season. So you could have the exact same statistical production for 10 straight years and have 10 different PER's. 

All of this means that PER is best used to compare contemporaries and has inherent flaws when you compare players across eras.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Da Grinch said:


> actually because PER is adjusted its a more useful tool in comparing players, its based on the average per minute stats of that season , if it didn't it would be useless.


each season is it's own metric range so comparison for players from the same season yes, comparison for players from disparate eras, not so much


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



e-monk said:


> each season is it's own metric range so comparison for players from the same season yes, comparison for players from disparate eras, not so much


depends on the eras...the numbers used haven't changed in 34 seasons .

before that no 3 point shot.

40 seasons ago steals, blocks off. and def. rebounded, pace and turnovers weren't recorded.

so it depends on when you are comparing.

40's through 74 ,fine.

79 to today, fine.

everything else is admittedly a grey area up to interpretation depending on who and when.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



TexasTrill said:


> Wilt Chamberlain is the best NBA player ever. LeBron James can't match up to Wilt statistically, and doesn't have the championships to outdo him there either. Wilt was a once in life time athlete, 7' 1" in socks, could bench press at least 400lbs, at LEAST a 45in vert in his prime, had a jump shot, led the NBA in assists, scoring, and rebounds, at different times. He also was a college track athlete, high jumped 6' 6" without really practicing, ran the 100 meter dash in under 11 seconds. Played against another candidate for GOAT, Bill Russell over a hundred times in his career,(before you say his competition was bad NBA players were measured in socks back then, instead of in basketball shoes. Ex. Bill Russell and Dwight Howard are actually both 6' 9") If LeBron is able to win 5 championships I would say he would have surpassed Jordan. Jordan was a selfish player, who needed superstar calls in order to win chamionships. The fact that Kobe Bryant has been able to duplicate Jordan's game so easily is a testament to how overrated he is. Jordan failed in the playoffs time and time again, just as James did, if he is able to win we will forget about his past failures just as we did about Jordan's. LeBron is well on is way to being better than the most popular NBA player ever.


Wow. Welcome to wrestling forum my friend but holy cow there are so many things wrong with this post it isn't even funny.



TexasTrill said:


> Wilt Chamberlain is the best NBA player ever. LeBron James can't match up to Wilt statistically, and doesn't have the championships to outdo him there either.


No one can match up with Wilt statistically. Again, the stats that Wilt put up are blown way out of proportion. The style at the time was fast paced, the game was still growing, and Wilt had unfair advantages that he was easily able to exploit against the defenses he played against. And trust me, Lebron will have the championships. That shouldn't take him long.



TexasTrill said:


> had a jump shot


Yea...no he didn't. Unless you mean up close next to the rim doing a fade away, then yes.



TexasTrill said:


> Played against another candidate for GOAT, Bill Russell over a hundred times in his career,(before you say his competition was bad NBA players were measured in socks back then, instead of in basketball shoes. Ex. Bill Russell and Dwight Howard are actually both 6' 9")


Bill Russell is most certainly not a candidate for the GOAT. He's a top 10 all time player, arguably the best defensive player in NBA history, but he's not the GOAT. And wait what? So players being measured in socks is your argument as to why his competition was good back then? How exactly does that prove his competition was good?

His competition was weak. Regardless of how many great players there were in his era, only a couple of them could actually guard Wilt due to his strength, athleticism and height. Even then it was basically impossible to guard him.



TexasTrill said:


> Jordan was a selfish player, who needed superstar calls in order to win chamionships.


:gay:

Superstar calls? Either you have the wrong player or you've never seen any of the Bulls finals series.




TexasTrill said:


> The fact that Kobe Bryant has been able to duplicate Jordan's game so easily is a testament to how overrated he is.


How exactly? First off Kobe didn't "duplicate" Jordan's playing style at all, he's just simply the closest we've ever seen someone to being like Mike. Even then, they are still different players with different playing styles. And even if that was the case, how does this make Jordan overrated? That's like saying Babe Ruth was overrated because players duplicated his style of play by hitting home runs. 



TexasTrill said:


> Jordan failed in the playoffs time and time again, just as James did, if he is able to win we will forget about his past failures just as we did about Jordan's. LeBron is well on is way to being better than the most popular NBA player ever.


Those failure's weren't Jordan's fault. He was there for the Bulls when they needed him, but his team wasn't. It wasn't until Pippen became an all star, Horace Grant joined the team, and the Bulls as a whole become a more well constructed and well balanced team that they would finally get past the Pistons, who were a legendary team at the time btw. 

As for Wilt? Well guess what, he also failed in the playoffs time and time again, only difference is, unlike Jordan, Wilt didn't show up most of the time when his team needed him to, while also having a great team. And this wasn't just for a portion of his career like Michael's, this was basically his entire career apart from one occasion where he was finals MVP in a series his team won (although he did have some good moments in his other finals win). I love how you just conveniently left that part out but had no problem mentioning Jordan's failures in the playoffs.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Da Grinch said:


> depends on the eras...the numbers used haven't changed in 34 seasons .
> 
> before that no 3 point shot.
> 
> 40 seasons ago steals, blocks off. and def. rebounded, pace and turnovers weren't recorded.
> 
> so it depends on when you are comparing.
> 
> 40's through 74 ,fine.
> 
> 79 to today, fine.
> 
> everything else is admittedly a grey area up to interpretation depending on who and when.


no, you're not getting it - the PER metric is adjusted based on the average stats of each particular season - like Diable said, a player could have the same exact raw stats 10 years running and 10 different PERs


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

hey xxxirvingxxx:


> [Carl Braun said] "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. *He hit on all those jumpers."
> "Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then." *--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70


why do people have such strong opinions about things without basing those opinions on any evidence whatsoever?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



e-monk said:


> hey xxxirvingxxx:
> 
> why do people have such strong opinions about things without basing those opinions on any evidence whatsoever?


I was basing it off of the footage's I've seen of him playing, and these weren't just 2 minute highlight videos either, but at the same time though, these were footage of him playing in his later days. I never saw anything claiming he could actually shoot.

Anyways...1-0 Emonk :/


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



e-monk said:


> no, you're not getting it - the PER metric is adjusted based on the average stats of each particular season - like Diable said, a player could have the same exact raw stats 10 years running and 10 different PERs


no i understand perfectly , if the league is running and gunning 20 points a game means less because its based on the average player per minute rates than if the league was walking it up.

for instance if one took wilt's raw stats lets say from 50 years ago and translated them into today's games when they had about 30 more possessions a game its not fair.

the whole point of PER is to equalize things , to compare a player's statistical impact in a given season, with the other players in that season with 15.00 being the average player.

for instance in a 9 team league there were 13 double digit rebounders 50 year ago.

today in a 30 team league there are 9 .

when the numbers being used to evaluate are the same, PER is a fine way to go...as unfair as you seem to believe PER is , using raw numbers is far worse especially when comparing different eras.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

PER is only specifically valid for comparisons within a single season, comparing Lebron and Durant within the years they both played in the NBA. It is not designed to compare what Lebron did in 2012-13 against what Wilt did in 1962-3 or whatever. You're talking about a completely different NBA and an entirely different set of data.

PER is about statistical analysis within the parameters of one individual season. For consecutive years and years within the same era you have roughly consistent data, but that is only a general comparison. When you start to use something for a purpose which it does not apply, the validity is lost. What we can do is use PER to compare how players compared to their own contemporaries statistically, but when you try to do more than that you run into huge problems.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



e-monk said:


> no, you're not getting it - the PER metric is adjusted based on the average stats of each particular season - like Diable said, a player could have the same exact raw stats 10 years running and 10 different PERs


PER is designed to measure production compared to league average. So a player that compiles a career 20 PER is, relatively speaking, one third more productive than the players he played with. And as long as you keep that in mind it is possible to compare players in the pre and post three point shot eras to others within their own era. So we can say that both Jordan and James were about 85% more productive than their peers.

However, I do kinda/sorta agree that it can be problematic when evaluating players whose prime fell in the '89-'99 era, because that was a low point in the NBA due to rapid expansion and increasingly restrictive CBAs dispersing talent. So guys in those years saw their PERs inflated due to the sheer volume of ham & eggers cluttering NBA rosters before the Europeans caught up (and thus helped improve the overall talent level of the NBA).


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



E.H. Munro said:


> However, I do kinda/sorta agree that it can be problematic when evaluating players whose prime fell in the '89-'99 era, because that was a low point in the NBA due to rapid expansion and increasingly restrictive CBAs dispersing talent. So guys in those years saw their PERs inflated due to the sheer volume of ham & eggers cluttering NBA rosters before the Europeans caught up (and thus helped improve the overall talent level of the NBA).



The NBA has always been rapidly expanding, including adding 8 team from 1970-1976. 

I'm not quite sure how talent being more equally dispersed around the league makes it easier to have a higher PER... couldn't you just as easily argue that it makes it harder because you have to face opposing talent night-in-and-night out as opposed to having it consolidated on several teams that you play less frequently?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Dornado said:


> The NBA has always been rapidly expanding, including adding 8 team from 1970-1976.


Incorrect. There were 28 professional basketball teams across both leagues in 1971. Within six years there would be 22. Six teams were contracted. So professional basketball expelled 72 players going into what's considered its golden age. In 1989 there were 23 teams. Over the next seven years six teams were added, which meant that 72 players were added before Europe had caught up. 

This is reflected in the numbers. Free throw shooting percentages have been stable for 40 years. Ever since the majority of players began shooting them overhanded the FT% has basically been .750. The one exception was the expansion era where it dipped to the .730-.740 range. It's just the nature of the beast. The NBA's golden age was, in part, a side effect of expunging a quarter of all pro teams. But then they added them all back again in very rapid fashion.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

or as I put it back in the other thread, what happened to all the ABA players?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Exactly, they got rid of the worst players from both leagues.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

but playing devil's advocate ....what are better ways to compare players from different seasons and eras?


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

You can use PER for that, but you have to realize the fact that it's not designed to do that. PER is basically just one number which is only about numbers, and it is only about a single set of data out of about sixty other sets of data. So you just have to acknowledge that there are a lot of complicating factors when you use it outside of what it is specifically designed to do. I don't see a real problem with using it to make comparisons within eras, but it's obviously not going to be valid comparing players in eras.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Da Grinch said:


> wilt was reputed to have a 48 inch vertical.
> 
> and if it were really that easy only the really tall would compete in that event.
> 
> the reality is wilt was naturally gifted who was one of the innovators of basketball in the area of weight training, much like jordan's work with tim grover a couple of decades later.


A guy at my school could clear 6'6 but couldn't even dunk the ball! Vertical jump does not equal high jump. I also HIGHLY doubt he could bench press any more than his own weight. The taller you are, the harder it is to bench because you have to move the weights further. It's simple physics. He'd have to be huge in order to bench that much. At best he had a 36 inch vertical, which is excellent since he's a 7'1 center. I don't think you realize what a 48 inch vertical on a 7' man is. He would be beyond legendary if he could jump that high. He'd be the only guy in history who could make change off the top of the backboard (and then still be about a half a foot higher)


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

here's Wilt blocking one at the top of the square.... when he was 36 (think of what other big men have looked like at 36... sheesh).






and here's what came up when I googled "Wilt Chamberlain vertical"


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

keep in mind that they had to change the rule regarding free throw attempts so that you cant break the plane of the free throw line anymore because Wilt was pretty much taking two steps from the top of the key and dunking the ball


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*

Just to play devil's advocate and to show Wilt fans aren't psycho fanatics.

Wilt is a known exaggerator so it is hard to take him seriously. When I first heard the 20,000 woman I laughed out loud at the bravado. I then read his autobiography and several news articles and maybe 20,000 did seem exaggerated but I would not doubt he hit 10,000.

I remember an interview he does stating he had a 50 inch vert, let's see he had a 9'6 standing, 50 inches is 4 feet 2 inches so the tips of his fingers would be 13 feet and 8 inches off the ground, or his hand would clear the top of the backboard. However then I see that previous video of him getting within inches of the top of the backboard at the age of 36 with no running start.

I remember an old forum where someone quoted a newspaper article that wilt could hook shot 10 3's in a row in practice. Of course I scream bullshit I mean he could barely hit free throws then I see this 



.

But of course people want a superman so sometimes they see no fault in Wilt, they want him to be superman so they refuse to admit he was a stathound, not stat padder because how is it a bad thing to purposely go get more rebounds or block more shots or score more points. It is not stat padding but in some cases it can be harmful to your team to do that.

He was not a very good team player in his early years, I have deduced that from research, if you are gonna argue that it is my well educated opinion so don't ask where I read that because I didn't read it anywhere.

However he wasn't a bad team player his whole career, he became a great team player and near perfect all around player in 66ish.

Maybe some of his legends are exaggerated but when you say you can jump 14 feet in the air but can actually only do 12.5 I am still impressed, I am actually more than impressed I am stunned. And even if you think videos an eye witness accounts are bullshit his stats are no lie.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)*

clearly CGI


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)*



e-monk said:


> clearly CGI


hahahah but cmon Wilt is a ****ing cheapskate trying to take 5 bucks off of Happy when he probably makes Happy's yearly salary after 10 games.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)*

here's the thing about Happy, how hard would it be to grab 1000+ rebounds in a season playing next to Wilt?


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Diable said:


> PER is only specifically valid for comparisons within a single season, comparing Lebron and Durant within the years they both played in the NBA. It is not designed to compare what Lebron did in 2012-13 against what Wilt did in 1962-3 or whatever. You're talking about a completely different NBA and an entirely different set of data.
> 
> PER is about statistical analysis within the parameters of one individual season. For consecutive years and years within the same era you have roughly consistent data, but that is only a general comparison. When you start to use something for a purpose which it does not apply, the validity is lost. What we can do is use PER to compare how players compared to their own contemporaries statistically, but when you try to do more than that you run into huge problems.


ok then how do you compare players from different eras?


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)*

who says there has to be a satisfactory answer to that question?


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread*



Da Grinch said:


> ok then how do you compare players from different eras?


Generally speaking, not well.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)*

basically what i get from you 2 is essentially a cop out.

anyone can criticize and say i disagree without offering anything of substance.

and in reality jordan retired in 2003(though he seems to be hinting at a comeback) . lebron started his career in 2003 for the purposes of this thread there really isn't alot of difference in eras here.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)*

no what you get from us is the reality that some things are not easy to compare, there are in fact questions that can be posed that have no proper answer - 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin', for instance

and there are certain things that just dont merit comparison to other things, apples say, with oranges


----------



## Diable

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)*

I saw MJ in college and I saw Lebron in High School. I have absolutely no problem comparing the two of them based on personal knowledge. However I don't know very much about Paul Arizin that I did not read somewhere. For me reading about someone on a webpage or watching some grainy film is not sufficient. I know basically how the game has changed. I am not going to pretend that I am knowledgeable about things which occurred before I was alive, because I am not.

I can tell you that Curly Neal is a great guy. Haven't seen him in quite awhile, but he was really nice every time I ran into him. Not sure how his personality compares to the other Globetrotters who aren't from Greensboro though or specifically to Marcus Haynes, who some people say was a better ball handler than him.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)*



Diable said:


> I saw MJ in college and I saw Lebron in High School. I have absolutely no problem comparing the two of them based on personal knowledge. However I don't know very much about Paul Arizin that I did not read somewhere. For me reading about someone on a webpage or watching some grainy film is not sufficient. I know basically how the game has changed. I am not going to pretend that I am knowledgeable about things which occurred before I was alive, because I am not.
> 
> I can tell you that Curly Neal is a great guy. Haven't seen him in quite awhile, but he was really nice every time I ran into him. Not sure how his personality compares to the other Globetrotters who aren't from Greensboro though or specifically to Marcus Haynes, who some people say was a better ball handler than him.


this is getting ridiculous.



normally i am not critical of how a person post but this is reaching a level of foolishness.

on page 7 of this thread you had no problem telling the big dipper magic and michael were better than wilt.

aren't they from different eras?

in fact the player you mentioned(paul arizin) you mentioned you couldn't speak about because he was before your time was wilt's teammate during wilt's 50 point a game season as well as a couple of others...a pretty important time if you are going to speak about wilt's basketball ability.

that alone speaks to the fallacy of your logic.

no if you have no opinion that fine...or in this case a clearly conflicting one.

but when faced with a spirited attempt to debate their case you change up and declare players from different years and eras cant be compared well.

i saw no such disclaimer from you 8 pages ago.

now outside of your posts on the matter , this is a basketball forum specifically set aside for this and other nba related topics.

if you don't like the topic or don't feel you can articulate a well informed opinion, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of topics on this web site from which you can pick and choose or you can choose to start your own.

but the notion that you can post your opinion, but then turn around and tell others that they shouldn't or couldn't have good opinions of their own is kind of a dick move and invalidates anything you have to say on the subject.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)*

forget it Jake, it's chinatown -er I mean it's the internet


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)*



e-monk said:


> no what you get from us is the reality that some things are not easy to compare, there are in fact questions that can be posed that have no proper answer - 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin', for instance
> 
> and there are certain things that just dont merit comparison to other things, apples say, with oranges


if you say can't do it , then i believe you . i have no reason not to.

but why then do you feel you have the right to question those who say they can with no proof to the contrary?

by your own admission you are out of your depth.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)*

I didnt admit to anything actually, I posited a state of affairs and you have provided neither a satisfactory methodology nor proof of any kind so who exactly are you talking about?


----------



## Marcus13

*Kobe Out Indefinitely*

ESPN is reporting Kobe suffered a severe ankle sprain in the closing seconds of their game against Atlanta. He is out indefinitely.

I say he's out a week...MAYYYBE two.


Sent from my iPhone using VS Free


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

OH!!! So is Kobe surrendering AGAIN? lol No surprise here! Kobe is a sore loser, and has claimed injury before when his team is in the slumps. 

Reposted from another thread:

I find it suspsicious that Kobe is once again injured when it matters most to NOT be injured. Remember when the Hornets were up in the series against the Lakers a couple playoffs ago, and Kobe had an ankle injury then too in Game 4, 2011? Seems like this is Kobe's way of surrendering. It's far less embarrassing to say "I was injured so we lost" than it is to just flat out lose fairly.

Finally, I would never delight in someone's injury. If his injury is real, then I hope a successful recovery for Kobe. However, I HIGHLY DOUBT Kobe is injured. This is just his alibi for losing, instead of MANNING up and shaking his opponents hands. 

Also, even if the Lakers don't make the playoffs, you cannot say it was because Kobe was out. Remember, Kobe, among others, dug this team into the hole that he has been trying all season to get Lakers out.


----------



## Floods

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

^o lawd


----------



## Ron

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



JBKB said:


> OH!!! So is Kobe surrendering AGAIN? lol No surprise here! Kobe is a sore loser, and has claimed injury before when his team is in the slumps.
> 
> Reposted from another thread:
> 
> I find it suspsicious that Kobe is once again injured when it matters most to NOT be injured. Remember when the Hornets were up in the series against the Lakers a couple playoffs ago, and Kobe had an ankle injury then too in Game 4, 2011? Seems like this is Kobe's way of surrendering. It's far less embarrassing to say "I was injured so we lost" than it is to just flat out lose fairly.
> 
> Finally, I would never delight in someone's injury. If his injury is real, then I hope a successful recovery for Kobe. However, I HIGHLY DOUBT Kobe is injured. This is just his alibi for losing, instead of MANNING up and shaking his opponents hands.
> 
> Also, even if the Lakers don't make the playoffs, you cannot say it was because Kobe was out. Remember, Kobe, among others, dug this team into the hole that he has been trying all season to get Lakers out.


Your posts are simply pathetic.

Thanks for wasting a minute of my life in reading it. Thank you so much.


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Ron said:


> Your posts are simply pathetic.
> 
> Thanks for wasting a minute of my life in reading it. Thank you so much.


Well we all have our opinions. You can very well believe Kobe didn't fake his injury. I personally know people who fake injuries, make excuses, or flat out QUIT because they are losing. Some people can't take the embarrassment of losing.

Kobe wanted a foul on that play and he's was bitter he didn't "as usual" get his way this time. As far as I'm concerned it was a FLOP! Not a flop because he fell down a moment, but a flop because of how long he stayed down seeking attention, violating the NBA's new flop rules.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*










Kobe's ankle courtesy of his wife Vanessa. Look fake to you?? 

Commence slapping yourself.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Dahntay Jones owns Kobe Bryant*

Trololololololo


----------



## Madstrike

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Because now that the jazz are going downhill and the lakers finally got that 8th seed spot(for now) he decided to fake an injury? yeah that makes perfect sense...


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Hm.....it really will be interesting to see how long the Lakers can make Kobe sit when he knows he badly needs to be out there.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



JBKB said:


> OH!!! So is Kobe surrendering AGAIN? lol No surprise here! Kobe is a sore loser, and has claimed injury before when his team is in the slumps.
> 
> Reposted from another thread:
> 
> I find it suspsicious that Kobe is once again injured when it matters most to NOT be injured. Remember when the *Hornets were *up in the series against the Lakers a couple playoffs ago, and Kobe had an ankle injury then too in Game 4, 2011? Seems like this is Kobe's way of surrendering. It's far less embarrassing to say "I was injured so we lost" than it is to just flat out lose fairly.
> 
> Finally, I would never delight in someone's injury. If his injury is real, then I hope a successful recovery for Kobe. However, I HIGHLY DOUBT Kobe is injured. This is just his alibi for losing, instead of MANNING up and shaking his opponents hands.
> 
> Also, even if the Lakers don't make the playoffs, you cannot say it was because Kobe was out. Remember, Kobe, among others, dug this team into the hole that he has been trying all season to get Lakers out.


a couple things:

there has never been a player in the history of the game who has played with more courage when it comes to injuries - we're talking about a player who plays injured like no one ever has

Kobe played every game in the Hornets series which the Lakers won handily


----------



## WithHotCompanyInMiami

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



JBKB said:


> OH!!! So is Kobe surrendering AGAIN? lol No surprise here! Kobe is a sore loser, and has claimed injury before when his team is in the slumps.
> 
> Reposted from another thread:
> 
> I find it suspsicious that Kobe is once again injured when it matters most to NOT be injured. Remember when the Hornets were up in the series against the Lakers a couple playoffs ago, and Kobe had an ankle injury then too in Game 4, 2011? Seems like this is Kobe's way of surrendering. It's far less embarrassing to say "I was injured so we lost" than it is to just flat out lose fairly.
> 
> Finally, I would never delight in someone's injury. If his injury is real, then I hope a successful recovery for Kobe. However, I HIGHLY DOUBT Kobe is injured. This is just his alibi for losing, instead of MANNING up and shaking his opponents hands.
> 
> Also, even if the Lakers don't make the playoffs, you cannot say it was because Kobe was out. Remember, Kobe, among others, dug this team into the hole that he has been trying all season to get Lakers out.





JBKB said:


> Well we all have our opinions. You can very well believe Kobe didn't fake his injury. I personally know people who fake injuries, make excuses, or flat out QUIT because they are losing. Some people can't take the embarrassment of losing.
> 
> Kobe wanted a foul on that play and he's was bitter he didn't "as usual" get his way this time. As far as I'm concerned it was a FLOP! Not a flop because he fell down a moment, but a flop because of how long he stayed down seeking attention, violating the NBA's new flop rules.


With that said, can you finally admit that you lied when you said that you like Kobe?


----------



## WithHotCompanyInMiami

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> Kobe's ankle courtesy of his wife Vanessa. Look fake to you??
> 
> Commence slapping yourself.


"Kobe's injury is imaginary!". :uhoh:


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Well looking at the Lakers record when they play without Kobe, They almost win every game. Blessing in disguise


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



WithHotCompanyInMiami said:


> "Kobe's injury is imaginary!". :uhoh:


What am I looking at? That looks like behind the knee, pushing off from one of those push pads used in track. What's with the artistry. Why not just a picture that clearly looks like an ankle.

Can someone illustrsate using this photo where the ankle is? Thanks.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Dynasty Raider said:


> What am I looking at? That looks like behind the knee, pushing off from one of those push pads used in track. What's with the artistry. Why not just a picture that clearly looks like an ankle.
> 
> Can someone illustrsate using this photo where the ankle is? Thanks.


You really can't see the toes at the top and the big ball on the left side of his left ankle?


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Even with that picture you can take this as Kobe being out 2-3 games. The guy is the toughest player in the NBA and basically not human when it comes to injuries. I hate the guy, but he plays through everything and this would be no different. If this were the difference between a seed or two he'd sit. But he isn't going to let them miss the playoffs.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Besides their next game against Indiana, their schedule is really easy upcoming. After Indiana tomorrow night (probably a loss, but who knows), they play Sacramento, Phoenix and Washington over the following 9 days. Then they have Golden State on March 25th. I'd be surprised if Kobe wasn't back for that game if not earlier.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



l0st1 said:


> You really can't see the toes at the top and the big ball on the left side of his left ankle?


Now I can ... thanks.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

I think he misses the Indy game and that's it.


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Kobe is starting. Dude is unreal.


----------



## NOFX22

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

for you Kobe dunces:

If he had such a bad sprain, an MRI would have been taken and the sprain would be graded 1, 2 or 3.

Grade 1 sprain: Slight stretching and some damage to the fibers (fibrils) of the ligament.

Grade 2 sprain: Partial tearing of the ligament. If the ankle joint is examined and moved in certain ways, abnormal looseness (laxity) of the ankle joint occurs.

Grade 3 sprain: Complete tear of the ligament. If the examiner pulls or pushes on the ankle joint in certain movements, gross instability occurs.

Parker has a grade 2 sprain, had to be helped off the court and is out for a month. Kobe walks off the court by himself, claims to have a SEVERE sprain but there's no grade released and he's a game time decision after being out "indefinitely". No mention of his 11/33 game, all we hear is how SEVERE his sprain is and of course, the upcoming "what a warrior he is for playing through the pain" - what manipulation of the media.

I just can't stand who phony dude's personality is, just a weird dude.


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> Kobe's ankle courtesy of his wife Vanessa. Look fake to you??
> 
> Commence slapping yourself.


Hold on a sec... I'm watching the Lakers game right now. Oh, and shall I mention Kobe is running up and down the court as I write this post?


----------



## Ron

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



NOFX22 said:


> for you Kobe dunces:
> 
> If he had such a bad sprain, an MRI would have been taken and the sprain would be graded 1, 2 or 3.
> 
> Grade 1 sprain: Slight stretching and some damage to the fibers (fibrils) of the ligament.
> 
> Grade 2 sprain: Partial tearing of the ligament. If the ankle joint is examined and moved in certain ways, abnormal looseness (laxity) of the ankle joint occurs.
> 
> Grade 3 sprain: Complete tear of the ligament. If the examiner pulls or pushes on the ankle joint in certain movements, gross instability occurs.
> 
> Parker has a grade 2 sprain, had to be helped off the court and is out for a month. Kobe walks off the court by himself, claims to have a SEVERE sprain but there's no grade released and he's a game time decision after being out "indefinitely". No mention of his 11/33 game, all we hear is how SEVERE his sprain is and of course, the upcoming "what a warrior he is for playing through the pain" - what manipulation of the media.
> 
> I just can't stand who phony dude's personality is, just a weird dude.


Relax, Clipper fan, and take a Xanax or something. Kobe's got zero point on 0-4 shooting through the first quarter. So its clear he is affected by the injury.


----------



## NOFX22

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Or its because he's playing 3 games in four nights


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



NOFX22 said:


> for you Kobe dunces:
> 
> If he had such a bad sprain, an MRI would have been taken and the sprain would be graded 1, 2 or 3.
> 
> Grade 1 sprain: Slight stretching and some damage to the fibers (fibrils) of the ligament.
> 
> Grade 2 sprain: Partial tearing of the ligament. If the ankle joint is examined and moved in certain ways, abnormal looseness (laxity) of the ankle joint occurs.
> 
> Grade 3 sprain: Complete tear of the ligament. If the examiner pulls or pushes on the ankle joint in certain movements, gross instability occurs.
> 
> Parker has a grade 2 sprain, had to be helped off the court and is out for a month. Kobe walks off the court by himself, claims to have a SEVERE sprain but there's no grade released and he's a game time decision after being out "indefinitely". No mention of his 11/33 game, all we hear is how SEVERE his sprain is and of course, the upcoming "what a warrior he is for playing through the pain" - what manipulation of the media.
> 
> I just can't stand who phony dude's personality is, just a weird dude.


WOW! Excellent post! Thanks for breaking down the types of sprains in terms of grades. I too think the media just wanted a story out of nothing. Anyway, enjoy watching Kobe play tonight!


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Ron said:


> Kobe's got zero point on 0-4 shooting through the first quarter. So its clear he is affected by the injury.


That's exactly how Kobe wants it to be! If he plays poorly, his fans will say "OH, BUT HE WAS PLAYING INJURED." If he plays well it's, "Oh, Kobe Bean Bryant has 30 points...playing through pain, WHAT A WARRIOR."

If the Lakers don't make the playoffs they'll say "If only Kobe weren't hurt," INSTEAD of admitting the truth that the Lakers played poorly most of the season.


----------



## Ron

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



NOFX22 said:


> Or its because he's playing 3 games in four nights


He hasn't played at all in the second quarter, so I hope you are now nice and relaxed about the "phony, weird dude."


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



JBKB said:


> That's exactly how Kobe wants it to be! If he plays poorly, his fans will say "OH, BUT HE WAS PLAYING INJURED." If he plays well it's, "Oh, Kobe Bean Bryant has 30 points...playing through pain, WHAT A WARRIOR."


Your stupidity knows no ends.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Dynasty Raider said:


> What am I looking at? That looks like behind the knee, pushing off from one of those push pads used in track. What's with the artistry. *Why not just a picture that clearly looks like an ankle*.
> 
> Can someone illustrsate using this photo where the ankle is? Thanks.


Now I know WHY they didn't post a real picture of the swollen ankle. He'll win the game if necessary. What a joke.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

not likely to return - nice try though - a little Willis Reed action?


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> I think he misses the Indy game and that's it.


Nope! He instead plays the Indy game. INJURY = IMAGINARY


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



JBKB said:


> Nope! He instead plays the Indy game. INJURY = IMAGINARY


we have honey trap - brown gargantuan stuck in harbor - rawr!!!


----------



## NOFX22

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

No Kobe more ball movement, nobody's talent getting stepped on, his 25 shots getting evenly distributed and the 10 or so minutes of the 48 he drains off the clock massaging the spalding, gets spent on running actual basketball plays...... I'm not surprised at all.


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



e-monk said:


> we have honey trap - brown gargantuan stuck in harbor - rawr!!!


Yep, of course the Lakers defeat the Indiana Pacers despite Kobe's 12 mins of playing time. Even Stern knew the Lakers would defeat the Pacers. I mean did anyone really think the 2nd seed Pacers had a chance against the Lakers with an injured Kobe Bryant? 

WAY TO GO STERN!!!


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

rawr!!!! me angry!!! rawr!!!


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



JBKB said:


> Nope! He instead plays the Indy game. INJURY = IMAGINARY


Hmm, well going by that logic, Isiah Thomas was faking his ankle injury in the 1988 finals of game 6 because he was still playing and even scored 25 points in one quarter. HES A FAKER! A MOTHER FAKER!!!


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Michael didnt have the flu


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



e-monk said:


> Michael didnt have the flu


And Dirk didn't have a fever, that lying sack of shit.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Willis Reed never had a thigh injury, either. He was just wanted to be dramatic.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*










LOL I hope I am getting the purpose of this thread.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



The Big Dipper said:


> LOL I hope I am getting the purpose of this thread.


Rofl I will never forget the famous wheel chair game from Paul Pierce.


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

For those who may not have seen the footage of Paul Pierce faking his injury this is a PURE TREAT TO WATCH! Even Lebron James says "Dude's faking!"  Turn the volume up on this one. 






Here's the link just in case the video isn't showing on BB. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysT8RA6JQks


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

I have a theory that eh munro, ballscientist, and JBKB are all the same person trolling us.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Well, there's no accounting for stupidity, is there Adam? That Pierce, he was so dedicated to faking he got arthroscopic surgery two weeks after the season was over! 

The irony of this thread is off the scales hilarious. Keep on, gentlemen, I could use a good laugh on a working Saturday.

Should I go dig up all those "Andy Bynum is a warrior!!!!" posts from the douchebag end of Laker Nation for playing on a torn meniscus? Because according to you guys he has to have been faking.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



JBKB said:


> For those who may not have seen the footage of Paul Pierce faking his injury this is a PURE TREAT TO WATCH! Even Lebron James says "Dude's faking!"  Turn the volume up on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the link just in case the video isn't showing on BB.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysT8RA6JQks


So you just blatantly agree with us without defending your statement of Kobe faking his injury?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Adam said:


> I have a theory that eh munro, ballscientist, and JBKB are all the same person trolling us.


I think comparing JBKB to ballscientist is an insult to ballscientist.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

The rest of us have a theory about the guy that claimed that Chris Paul wasn't valuable because you can always find guys like Norris Cole and that Kobe Bryant was too old to be a good NBA player. But speaking it publicly is a ToS violation.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> The rest of us have a theory about the guy that claimed that Chris Paul wasn't valuable because you can always find guys like Norris Cole and that Kobe Bryant was too old to be a good NBA player. But speaking it publicly is a ToS violation.


I said Kobe wasn't a superstar anymore, never said he wasn't a good player. I had him ranked 8th in the entire NBA. I said Chris Paul is less valuable because of the current landscape, not that he wasn't valuable. 

You should use actual quotes since you have a hard time remembering. Like the actual ones of you saying Kevin Garnett is a better player than Dwight Howard. But I know this is the time of year that you convalesce in West Palm Beach so maybe you just aren't healthy. Can you tell me about the tenor in the sports bars of West Palm Beach again? I'd like to know the climate of Miami sports.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Adam said:


> I said Kobe wasn't a superstar anymore, never said he wasn't a good player. I had him ranked 8th in the entire NBA. I said Chris Paul is less valuable because of the current landscape, not that he wasn't valuable.


That's a real re-dance. Because I'm pretty sure that most people define top 10 in the world players as superstars. And it does seem at odds with your prattling in that No League for Old Men thread. And you're hilariously inept in covering your tracks re Chris Paul. "The current landscape" has nothing to do CP3's value. His value is that he's inarguably a top 10 player (i.e. even the stupidest of Heat fans can't deny that) and likely a top 5 one.



Adam said:


> You should use actual quotes since you have a hard time remembering. Like the actual ones of you saying Kevin Garnett is a better player than Dwight Howard.


You mean back in 2008 and 2009 when it was absolutely true? Maybe you can go back and dig up one of my 2004 quotes about Bryant being better than James as proof that I have no idea what I'm talking about. :lol:


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

You said "Kobe is finished."

If by finished, you mean he's not even close to being finished, then yes, he's finished.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> That's a real re-dance. Because I'm pretty sure that most people define top 10 in the world players as superstars. And it does seem at odds with your prattling in that No League for Old Men thread.


So when my meaning is at odds with what you would like to depict me as having said it's a re-dance? That's almost as stupid as saying Dwight Howard is akin to Bill Russell.



> You mean back in 2008 and 2009 when it was absolutely true? Maybe you can go back and dig up one of my 2004 quotes about Bryant being better than James as proof that I have no idea what I'm talking about. :lol:


No, I mean two weeks ago when you said Kevin Garnett this season is better than Dwight Howard.



Basel said:


> You said "Kobe is finished."
> 
> If by finished, you mean he's not even close to being finished, then yes, he's finished.


Finished being a top player. I don't deny saying that. And I still believe it. I don't consider him a top 5 NBA player. That's always been my barest minimum of superstar.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

I think he's saying that when you are at odds with your meaning he likes to call you on it - but maybe Im wrong....


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> Well, there's no accounting for stupidity, is there Adam? That Pierce, he was so dedicated to faking he got arthroscopic surgery two weeks after the season was over!
> 
> The irony of this thread is off the scales hilarious. Keep on, gentlemen, I could use a good laugh on a working Saturday.
> 
> Should I go dig up all those "Andy Bynum is a warrior!!!!" posts from the douchebag end of Laker Nation for playing on a torn meniscus? Because according to you guys he has to have been faking.


Bynum is still faking


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Excuse me. Bill Russell with _good offense._


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Adam said:


> Finished being a top player. I don't deny saying that. And I still believe it. I don't consider him a top 5 NBA player. That's always been my barest minimum of superstar.


You call Wade a superstar. So apparently what you really meant is "He's finished as a top player and not a superstar anymore because he's barely better than the ossum Dwyane Wade!"


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



e-monk said:


> Bynum is still faking


He really needs to get himself into Beth Israel Deaconess and let them reconstruct his knee. But he also needs to be serious about the rehab after. It'd be a shame to see his career end so quickly. If he could ever have got his head on right he'd've been a heck of a player.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Adam said:


> No, I mean two weeks ago when you said Kevin Garnett this season is better than Dwight Howard.


You mean this season when Dwight has spent his time moping around on the court, causing dissension in the Laker locker room, and slacking on defense? Really? You're going to the mat for Dwight Howard _now_? :lol:

Rule one, Adam, when you're deep in the ditch stop digging.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> You call Wade a superstar. So apparently what you really meant is "He's finished as a top player and not a superstar anymore because he's barely better than the ossum Dwyane Wade!"


There it is, he's misspelling them quotes. Next comes the nicknames.

I haven't actually gone around proclaiming Wade a superstar, and just the opposite I've said numerous times over the years that I dislike Wade (as a person and a player), but it's cute that you want to imply I'm biased that way. However, I do believe he is better than Kobe. Among other players. I'm interested to see what other tangents you throw in next.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> You mean this season when Dwight has spent his time moping around on the court, causing dissension in the Laker locker room, and slacking on defense? Really? You're going to the mat for Dwight Howard _now_? :lol:
> 
> Rule one, Adam, when you're deep in the ditch stop digging.


Yeah, this season, where he's leading the league in rebounding and still easily better than Kevin Garnett. He's not Bill Russell but he sure as hell is better than a Kevin Garnett at 39.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

You may need to re-read, I'm not the one throwing tangents around here.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> You may need to re-read, I'm not the one throwing tangents around here.


You've gone from misquoting me to bringing up a supposed bias for Dwyane Wade I've given no evidence for all in response to me comparing you to two funnier and more coherent trolls than you.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Adam said:


> Yeah, this season, where he's leading the league in rebounding and still easily better than Kevin Garnett. He's not Bill Russell but he sure as hell is better than a Kevin Garnett at 39.


I fully grant that this season Dwight Howard is better than the "39 year old Kevin Garnett". Unfortunately we have to compare him to the 36 year old Kevin Garnett playing this year. And he ain't better than that guy right now. And it's entirely about his effort and attitude. Because when his head's on right, as it was in 2010 (the year whose quotes you're so fond of digging up, studiously avoiding anything before that season), then he's historically good.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Adam said:


> You've gone from misquoting me to bringing up a supposed bias for Dwyane Wade I've given no evidence for all in response to me comparing you to two funnier and more coherent trolls than you.


Really, Adam? How about this, I'll make you a bet. I bet if I look back in this thread to see where the attacks started it's going to be with you. I'm not the stalker here, _you are_.


----------



## The Big Dipper

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> Well, there's no accounting for stupidity, is there Adam? That Pierce, he was so dedicated to faking he got arthroscopic surgery two weeks after the season was over!
> 
> The irony of this thread is off the scales hilarious. Keep on, gentlemen, I could use a good laugh on a working Saturday.
> 
> Should I go dig up all those "Andy Bynum is a warrior!!!!" posts from the douchebag end of Laker Nation for playing on a torn meniscus? Because according to you guys he has to have been faking.


I am still kind of new here, is Munro always this crabby or is Adam just pushing his buttons?


----------



## BobStackhouse42

I can't believe I just wasted my time reading all of that. I think you guys secretly love each other.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> *I fully grant that this season Dwight Howard is better than the "39 year old Kevin Garnett".* Unfortunately we have to compare him to the 36 year old Kevin Garnett playing this year. And he ain't better than that guy right now. And it's entirely about his effort and attitude. Because when his head's on right, as it was in 2010 (the year whose quotes you're so fond of digging up, studiously avoiding anything before that season), then he's historically good.


This is why you're a troll. From just the other day:



E.H. Munro said:


> Lopez has zero defensive impact. Jefferson is in a similar place. Neither are as good as Garnett's been this year. Noah and Horford I'll give you (I've been a huge Horford fan for years now). Howard, I won't.





The Big Dipper said:


> I am still kind of new here, is Munro always this crabby or is Adam just pushing his buttons?


Always this crabby. He just posts stupid nicknames, makes porno sex jokes, links his shitty site, and talks about the climate of Miami sports with authority because apparently he frequents West Palm Beach sports bars occassionally. Honestly, I probably insulted the other two including him in that list. But apparently I'm the stalker because I decided to call a troll a troll. Should I bring up the dozen references he has made to me on the forum in the past few weeks that I have ignored? I didn't respond to them with tangential garbage when he did it, I just ignored it.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



The Big Dipper said:


> I am still kind of new here, is Munro always this crabby or is Adam just pushing his buttons?


Do a search for the thread entitled No League for Old Men so that you can read what we're all laughing about.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Adam said:


> This is why you're a troll. From just the other day


Re-read what you wrote, then actually read my response. Then go back to "No League for Old Men" and tell us all how we just misunderstood you when you said that Chris Paul wasn't valuable because you can always find guys like Mario Chalmers' backup. (Man, Chalmers must be teh ossum if he can beat out the guy nearly as good as CP3!)


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Adam said:


> Should I bring up the dozen references he has made to me on the forum in the past few weeks that I have ignored? I didn't respond to them with tangential garbage when he did it, I just ignored it.


By "dozens if references to you" do you mean _the one_ Norris Cole joke I made two or three weeks ago? Yeah, I'm definitely the one here stalking because I'm clearly reading every single one of your posts so that I can take offense at everything.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Are you done trolling yet?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Adam said:


> Are you done trolling yet?





Adam said:


> I have a theory that eh munro, ballscientist, and JBKB are all the same person trolling us.


Clearly I'm the troll.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Norris Cole's name is transcendent in this forum now. Don't take it personal Adam, embrace it.

But apparently you still want to argue that you believe everything you said that in that thread, so I guess you also think that CP3 won't be an all-NBA performer next year?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Well he is in the twilight of his career.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Jamel Irief said:


> Norris Cole's name is transcendent in this forum now. Don't take it personal Adam, embrace it.
> 
> But apparently you still want to argue that you believe everything you said that in that thread, so I guess you also think that CP3 won't be an all-NBA performer next year?


I don't at all. I've never had a problem with it. I think people could actually make better arguments against some of the things I said in that thread and I'm thankful they instead talk about Norris Cole and misquote that part of it.

Munro, are you finished yet? You can have the last word again if you aren't.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Maybe you can stop reading every single post I make and interpreting every single thing I say to be about you? Because honestly even in the only possible post amongst the "dozens of references" I've made to you in "the last few weeks" I wasn't thinking about you at all. I was just making a Norris Cole joke.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> Maybe you can stop reading every single post I make and interpreting every single thing I say to be about you? Because honestly even in the only possible post amongst the "dozens of references" I've made to you in "the last few weeks" I wasn't thinking about you at all. I was just making a Norris Cole joke.


Guess you weren't done. I'm sorry, I'll let you have the last word this time for sure I promise. I just think it's funny that Dre picked you out for what you are years ago. Never wrong, always the last word.

Sorry I read the forum I've been on for 10 years. Sorry you flipped the **** out and started throwing anything you could seeing if it could stick in this thread when I pointed out that you're a troll. You don't honestly think you aren't a troll, do you? What do you call somebody who goes around with 100 stupid nicknames or making porn jokes or linking his shitty site or calling Dwight Howard Bill Russell with an offensive game? Your history is more ridiculous than Ballscientist.

Namrepus.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

I think Adam and Munro are the same poster who happens to suffer from schizophrenia...


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

I happen to suffer from schizophrenia


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

and so do I


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Actually Adam it's kind of creepy that you every single one of my posts looking for anything that could be interpreted as a reference to you. Believe me I don't waste any time reading your posts except when you start your idiotic flame wars. Thankfully after LeBron leaves Miami in another year and a half you won't venture off the Heat boards again.

Also Fred on Everything isn't my site, so I have no idea what you're babbling about there either.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> Actually Adam it's kind of creepy that you every single one of my posts looking for anything that could be interpreted as a reference to you.


Except I don't. You've gone from misquoting me, to accusing me of bias, and now I'm apparently your stalker...in a thread where _you_ replied to _me_. Keep going. Keep throwing shit at the wall, something has to stick.



> Believe me I don't waste any time reading your posts except when you start your idiotic flame wars. Thankfully after LeBron leaves Miami in another year and a half you won't venture off the Heat boards again.


Well it obviously bothered you enough to post today just for making my list of trolls on the site, so you're not as indifferent to my posting as you would like us all to believe. I was posting on this board before you, will probably be posting after you.



> Also Fred on Everything isn't my site, so I have no idea what you're babbling about there either.


I have no clue at all what this means. I was referring to the spamming you did for your Naked Circus site. Trolololol.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Adam said:


> Except I don't. You've gone from misquoting me, to accusing me of bias, and now I'm apparently your stalker...in a thread where _you_ replied to _me_.


You mean the post where you stepped into the thread to start hurling insults at me? That post?



Adam said:


> I have no clue at all what this means. I was referring to the spamming you did for your Naked Circus site. Trolololol.


As that hasn't been linked in my sig file since sometime in the _last_ decade I'm getting _really_ creeped out. You may need to take a break, Adam.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

You're creeped out that I remember what a terrible poster you are and how you spammed the site with links to your shitty website? It was linking malware to this site and there was a thread about it a couple weeks ago. I'm creeped out every time you make some weird ass porn joke.

For somebody who doesn't care about what I post you sure spend a lot of time replying to everything I write. And yes, I put you in the category of trolls. How are you not a troll? Is anything you post serious? Big Baconator. Namrepus.

And I disagree that I insulted you. I think I insulted the other two tbh.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

You're an angry and bitter man, Adam. And not in an entertaining way, but in a weird, creepy, 38 year old living in his parents' basement, psycho-stalker way. The fact that you're obsessing over a "shitty website" that ceased to exist five or six years ago just emphasizes your bizarre obsession with me. R-Star is going to be jealous that not only is he no longer the Great Satan of your universe, but judging from your embittered whinging in this thread, he apparently never made it past #2. 

Oh, and for the record, the infected site belonged to a poster here that wasn't doing his security updates, and didn't "infect BBF with malware". By that period in time all that was being hosted on "the shitty website" were a large selection of the gifs you see to the right when you squander bandwidth by posting. (And this happened a few months ago.)

Now, please, do everyone a favour and get a job and start spending some time in that terrifying big blue room outside your door. You need more interaction with your fellow men.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Now I'm obsessing over your shitty website by pointing out that you spammed links on this site? You're pathetic. Go to bed. You're done here. Not one post so far have you defended your shitty history on this site and the fact you're a huge troll. You know, the accusation that I made that prompted this debate and the one you keep ignoring. Instead of refuting my point that you're a weird old pervert who makes disgusting jokes and spams links you make some silly little diagnosis. Post again. Like I said, you were spotted out years ago. You're never wrong, you always need the last word.

Worst. Admin. Ever. And bringing up R-star, another poster you feuded with recently. Can you go a week without feuding with somebody on this site?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Adam, I'm really sorry that you embarrass yourself regularly by spouting off about basketball, and that _everyone_ throws it in your face. But, alas for you, I have forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know. Ever. And that isn't exactly an accomplishment, I'm pretty sure that my African Grey Parrot, Chauncey, could say as much. I don't need to "defend my shitty history" because when drunken to the point of incoherence I've never said anything half as stupid as what passed for serious discussion in the "No Game for Old Men" thread.

If you're that unhappy with the main board, though, we'll gladly limit your posting to the Heat board so that all you Heat fans can cry over how mean I am to you.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> Adam, I'm really sorry that you embarrass yourself regularly by spouting off about basketball, and that _everyone_ throws it in your face.


Is this why multiple posters this year have pointed out what a terrible admin you are and how this site would be better off without you? Do you think your disgusting porn one-liners and your history of spamming will be addressed sometime soon? I'm anxious to get a response, you keep ignoring those points, and they're part of why I called you a troll. You know, the accusation you are supposedly addressing but never defending except taking wild swings about my character and missing. Like I'm supposed to be hurt that the guy who compares basketball to porno and shit on this site dislikes me? Sorry, I don't.



> But, alas for you, I have forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know. Ever.


Pretentious, and untrue. When Dwight Howard becomes Bill Russell with offense I'll bow to your superior knowledge.



> And that isn't exactly an accomplishment, I'm pretty sure that my African Grey Parrot, Chauncey, could say as much. I don't need to "defend my shitty history" because when drunken to the point of incoherence I've never said anything half as stupid as what passed for serious discussion in the "No Game for Old Men" thread.


Troll.



> If you're that unhappy with the main board, though, we'll gladly limit your posting to the Heat board so that all you Heat fans can cry over how mean I am to you.


Where did I say I was unhappy with the main board? Nice straw man. You've done everything in this thread except defend the points I raised about your posting. Troll. Bad admin. Old ass pervert. Post again. It's coming, I want to see it. Again. You have to have the last word. Because, and this is going to be an accurate profile unlike your pathetic attempts to deflect my points about your posting, you're a pretentious old nobody who over values his own opinion and thinks he's never wrong. This was pointed out to you by Dre a while ago. You also have to have the last word in any argument. So post again.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Adam said:


> Is this why multiple posters this year have pointed out what a terrible admin you are and how this site would be better off without you?


Let's see, R-Star, KnickKiller, and a third guy, who I won't mention by name, that actually attempted to split the board so that he could take it over. Not exactly an all-star roster there, Adam.



Adam said:


> Do you think your disgusting porn one-liners and your history of spamming will be addressed sometime soon? I'm anxious to get a response, you keep ignoring those points, and they're part of why I called you a troll.


So you're advocating a new puritanism here? Does this mean that we should go through your posts and take out all the salty content? 



Adam said:


> You know, the accusation you are supposedly addressing but never defending except taking wild swings about my character and missing.


What are you babbling about? All I've questioned is your basketball knowledge and your weird obsession with me.



Adam said:


> Pretentious, and untrue.


Oh, no, Adam, it's very true. My parrot knows a lot more about the game of basketball than you.

(EDIT: And the real irony about your "pervert" whinging is that I can guarantee that I watch less of that than anyone here.)


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Why did I actually start reading this? Sorry, I can go read Jace trying to convince JBKB that Wade is good.


----------



## Marcus13

That's what our options have been limited to...


Sent from my iPhone using VS Free


----------



## Floods

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Jamel Irief said:


> Why did I actually start reading this? Sorry, I can go read Jace trying to convince JBKB that Wade is good.


As tired as these constant No League references are, this one cracked me the hell up.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

We get it, you guys don't like each other. So stop listening to each others bullshit, because I think it's safe to say most people here don't give a shit about it!

I don't see how saying Howard is Russell with an offensive game is any more outlandish than saying Chris Paul isn't a superstar and isn't that necessary/valuable that Norris Cole could replace him.

And stop with the " I know you have to have the last word, so post again. Post again, I know it's coming" It's stupid and childish. Pretty obvious what you're doing. And it hardly means he has to have the last word considering you're doing the same dumb shit. Who wouldn't respond to a post that is directed at them and insulting or accusatory?

And lastly, I have no god damn clue why I read all this nonsense.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



l0st1 said:


> We get it, you guys don't like each other. So stop listening to each others bullshit, because I think it's safe to say most people here don't give a shit about it!
> 
> I don't see how saying Howard is Russell with an offensive game is any more outlandish than saying Chris Paul isn't a superstar and isn't that necessary/valuable that Norris Cole could replace him.
> 
> And stop with the " I know you have to have the last word, so post again. Post again, I know it's coming" It's stupid and childish. Pretty obvious what you're doing. And it hardly means he has to have the last word considering you're doing the same dumb shit. Who wouldn't respond to a post that is directed at them and insulting or accusatory?
> 
> And lastly, I have no god damn clue why I read all this nonsense.


Was that what all of that was about? I thought someone just made a mom joke and shit got personal.


----------



## Jamel Irief

XxIrvingxX said:


> Was that what all of that was about? I thought someone just made a mom joke and shit got personal.


As far as I can tell Adam has a pent up dislike for munro that has been festering. Munro gets strange when you mock pierce. I said he whines to refs too much months back and he went into his "ah, widdle Jamel mad?" Baby talk routine. 

I wonder if Ron told them they'll both get two weeks "vacation" for breaking rules. In Adams defense he's not an admin. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Jamel Irief said:


> As far as I can tell Adam has a pent up dislike for munro that has been festering. Munro gets strange when you mock pierce.


Actually I was just laughing at the congruence between the "Kobe is a warrior!" and the tinfoil hat wearing "Pierce was faking!!!" crowd. It really was a great laugh that I needed given the amount of work I'd just finished on a frigging Saturday. Like I said, R-Star will be heartbroken to learn that he's not the Great Satan in the Adamverse.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Will you both please shut up already? Seriously I know I'm not one to talk when it comes to pointless debating and what not but at least I don't debate about how pathetic the other person is. It's the internet for christ sakes, get over it.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

There we go. Abuse those mod powers. That's what I was waiting for. It's your m.o.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

The discussion is over, Adam. You've had your say, and complained about imaginary offenses seven years old. And you're free to not read my posts. As your doctor I'd recommend it.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Baiting is against the ToS, Munro. Maybe you should delete your post as well and stick to threatening PM's.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Are you requesting a ban? I'll gladly open the thread for discussion for you on the mod's board.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> Are you requesting a ban? I'll gladly open the thread for discussion for you on the mod's board.


Requesting one for you, yes. Is this proper mod behavior in public? Stick to PM's. But that would mean you can't get the last word.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

I've opened the "Does Adam need a vacation" thread per your request.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Congratulations?


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> I've opened the "Does Adam need a vacation" thread per your request.


Why is the poll closed?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Hyperion said:


> Why is the poll closed?


I thought that under the circumstances a short poll was more appropriate.


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



CristopherPet said:


> he is going to miss the playoffs


WHAT! THE LAKERS WILL MAKE THE PLAYOFFS? So the media after all were just exaggerating that the Lakers won't make the playoffs, and simply toying with our heads for months about all this Lakers won't make the playoffs gibberish? I FEEL DUPED!  Please stop duping me Stern! 

Now the media are saying it will be an early first round exit if the Lakers make the playoffs... Hmm. So does that really translate to Lakers will win the championship? I'm on to you Stern!


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> I've opened the "Does Adam need a vacation" thread per your request.


I know my opinion on this doesn't matter, but no he doesn't deserve a vacation. He didn't do anything in this thread you didn't do, and he's not bothering anyone but you. 

This board is freaking dead. All this time you spent trading insults with him and starting polls on the mod board you could of spent making this board more enjoyable for the posters.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Adam isn't going anywhere. I don't even know what EH is talking about.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Jamel Irief said:


> I know my opinion on this doesn't matter


Correct.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Basel said:


> Adam isn't going anywhere. I don't even know what EH is talking about.


 
He just wants a chance to flex his admin power muscle. 

I used to coordinate deliveries to grocery stores. The backroom receivers were the biggest pains in the ass I ever encountered. Usually they were frontline employees that just got their first promotion and first position of authority. As a result they would come up with rules and hope you broke them so that they could subsequently punish you. 

You might also encounter this type of behaivor with the bouncer at the night club who treates you like you're doing him a favor by spending your money in the business he works for. This guy will never have any skills that will lead him to have any authority over people in any other position, so he abuses the little power he does have. In the end he's not really there to make the club safer and more enjoyable to other patrons, he's there to boost his own ego.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Jamel Irief said:


> He just wants a chance to flex his admin power muscle.


And oddly enough I'm the one that actually almost never does. Even here the only edit I made came when Adam attempted to continue the flame war after it was over. I'm not sure who gave you your psychoanalysis lessons, but you may want to request a refund. 

There's a very good reason that Basel's confused, he, you, and Adam are apparently the only three people here that didn't figure out the joke. Hyperion even made it explicit in big neon letters, so I have no idea how you and Basel missed it.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> And oddly enough I'm the one that actually almost never does. Even here the only edit I made came when Adam attempted to continue the flame war after it was over. I'm not sure who gave you your psychoanalysis lessons, but you may want to request a refund.
> 
> There's a very good reason that Basel's confused, he, you, and Adam are apparently the only three people here that didn't figure out the joke. Hyperion even made it explicit in big neon letters, so I have no idea how you and Basel missed it.


I read what he wrote and I still don't get it, wasn't the first time (Nimretiz thread in EBB a couple weeks back). I was really kind of surprised to see you act like this in public, so I'll take your word for it.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Jamel Irief said:


> I read what he wrote and I still don't get it


There was no thread, it was me pulling Adam's leg in response to this temper tantrum over slights that appear to have happened in the middle part of the last decade. Hence Hyperion making a joke about the poll. The truly hilarious part of this is that of all Adam's many tormentors I have to be last on the list. You haven't ever seen me bumping his thread(s). I even looked over every post I made since the start of the year to see if I was being uncharitable and all I could find was a single Norris Cole joke, and even that had nothing to do with him as Cole is nothing more than an inside joke here at this point. But apparently I'm the Great Satan in his world, which is more amusing than anything else.




Jamel Irief said:


> wasn't the first time (Nimretiz thread in EBB a couple weeks back).


What did I do in Nimreitz's thread aside from make jokes about non-standard units of measure?


----------



## Luke

Y'all need to drop it. It's tacky at this point.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Luke said:


> Y'all need to drop it. It's tacky at this point.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


QFT


----------



## Ben

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

And we wonder why the site is going downhill when an admin fills up 2 pages of a thread with this nonsense rather than PM'ing the member. :laugh:


----------



## Luke

I don't want to be lumped in the anti Munro group though. I think he does a great job around here and he's one of the most knowledgable guys we have. I've been guilty of doing the same stuff but this back and forth needed to end.

And Adam shouldn't get scrutinized like he does. I still think the no league for old men thread was absurd, but overall he's been a consistent contributor that brings something unique to the table and we're starved of that at this point.

But back on topic, Kobe is a warrior and will be back soon. And I hate Pauline wheelchair as much as the next laker fan, and while his theatrics were over the top despite actually being hurt, but he's a warrior too. Anyone that comes back that quickly from a freaking knife fight ain't a princess.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



E.H. Munro said:


> There was no thread, it was me pulling Adam's leg in response to this temper tantrum over slights that appear to have happened in the middle part of the last decade. Hence Hyperion making a joke about the poll. The truly hilarious part of this is that of all Adam's many tormentors I have to be last on the list. You haven't ever seen me bumping his thread(s). I even looked over every post I made since the start of the year to see if I was being uncharitable and all I could find was a single Norris Cole joke, and even that had nothing to do with him as Cole is nothing more than an inside joke here at this point. But apparently I'm the Great Satan in his world, which is more amusing than anything else.
> 
> What did I do in Nimreitz's thread aside from make jokes about non-standard units of measure?


RE:Nimreitz thread, I meant the thread as a whole I didn't get, not just your contribution.


----------



## Floods

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*



Luke said:


> Y'all need to drop it. It's tacky at this point.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Y'all need to stop saying y'all.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

Indeed


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

I'll help, I can step in as the bbb.net pervert.

This thread sucks like Jenna Jameson in a graphic movie.

Damn it, I fail.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Kobe Out Indefinitely*

That's OK, I'm similarly out of date with my porn references as I don't watch it.


----------



## Basel

*Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



> Arash Markazi ‏@ArashMarkazi 1m
> 
> Kobe has a probable torn Achilles. MRI tomorrow to confirm.





> Mike Trudell ‏@LakersReporter 1m
> 
> The Lakers believe Kobe Bryant tore his Achilles. He will have an MRI tomorrow to confirm.


Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


----------



## Diable

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

that's a 12 month injury or is it 6. How long did it take Billups to get back? He got hurt at the end of last season and wasn't back until about half way through this season I think.


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

If that's accurate, does Kobe seriously consider retirement?


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Well not a bad way to end a great career: fighting till the end to get your team into the playoffs playing heavy minutes on old legs.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

There is no chance that was Kobe Bryant's last game in the NBA. You guys are ****ing crazy if you believe that.


----------



## Wade2Bosh

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



BlakeJesus said:


> If that's accurate, does Kobe seriously consider retirement?


I doubt a competitor like Kobe will let an injury be the reason for his retirement.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

what the ******

that is such bullshit

i hate injuries...they were gonna lose anyway but with him involved you kept the "you never know" illusion

and no way in hell he retires if anything he comes back harder. i said the same thing about Ray Lewis don't let me be right twice


----------



## Basel

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



> Dave McMenamin ‏@mcten 14s
> 
> Kobe has tears in his eyes and is on crutches. "Terrible. This is a terrible feeling." He says he knows it's a torn Achilles


----------



## 29380

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Basel said:


> There is no chance that was Kobe Bryant's last game in the NBA. You guys are ****ing crazy if you believe that.


True but it might be the last time he plays for the Lakers because if the injury is going to keep him out most of if not all of next year the Lakers have to amnesty him.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

You can't be serious. Lakers are not going to amnesty Kobe. He'll be back in a Lakers uniform. I guarantee it.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

FOH @ have to amnesty

:gay: x a million

and I don't care if by some chance it ends up happening because it would be the shittiest, stupidest thing to ever do.


----------



## Laker Freak

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

This is not the end of Kobe. Hell knowing how he is I bet he will return before Derrick Rose does.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



> Mike Trudell ‏@LakersReporter 1m
> 
> Of course, @kobebryant concluded his interview by mocking a question asking if we'd seen the last of him. "Are you kidding?!"


That answers that.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

The Lakers can't amnesty Kobe. It would have the same effect it had on Chicago when they broke up the Jordan Bulls. Players would shun them.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

googling this on Billups it looks like he tore his on 2/7/12 and returned on 11/28/12. So that's almost 10 months for him. He didn't look very good when he came back, but of course he didn't really look incredible before he got hurt.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Yeah, Billups is no Kobe. I have no doubt that Kobe comes back from this and still plays at a high level. Don't underestimate his dedication to the game of basketball. He's going out on his own terms.


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

My memory is slipping, so I'm curious to know what his last injury was when there was so much commotion over it. Everyone panicked about the severity of it, but Kobe came back around the very next game or something. As for the "probable" torn achilles, it's just probable. Seems to me that Kobe will be back. Not saying his injury is fake, but once again it seems like every time the Lakers are close to facing embarrassment, Kobe is somehow injured. 

If his injury is real, then I wish him 100% recovery. When Kobe does come back, he should just his position and stop trying to over-multitask everywhere on the court.

This is random: WHY ON EARTH WAS MIKE BROWN FIRED? D'Antoni is sacrificing Kobe's health just so he can make the playoffs? Selfish if you ask me. 

GET WELL SOON KOBE!!!


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

You must be outside your ****ing mind if you think that's the last we'll see of Kobe.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

I'm sorry, but putting the blame on Mike D'Antoni for what happened is ridiculous. No matter the coach, Kobe wasn't sitting tonight.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Fitting end to a disastrous season for LA. It will be interesting to see if LA can somehow hold on to their playoff spot.


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

TWEETS ARE GOING OUT ALL OVER THAT KOBE IS FAKING HIS INJURY!!! At least 100 so far!

*Random tweets right here...*

Blocked RT @BurdickStChuck Kobe faking like he injured so he won't have to face the critics when they get put out


Denolious 0:50Echofon for Android PRO



RT @NorthwestCwest: #kobe really the king of faking injuries to get tough points


TTotorica 0:52Twitter for iPhone






I bet Kobe's faking it for attention.


TheRealMattKing 1:01Twitter for iPhone


----------



## Maravilla

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

I still think Utah is going to lose their last 2 games unless they do something very un-utahish.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Don't say Billups is no Kobe cause Billup's rise from obscure to a legitimate all-star is all hard work and determination, that's nothing that Kobe ever had to deal with

You don't have to have a huge profile to have huge focus


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Sure he may play again but this is really probably the last we'll see of Kobe as we've known him. Players are more likely then not significantly diminished when they come back from Achilles and certainly not players of Kobe's age (i.e. Elton Brand, Billups)


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Basel said:


> I'm sorry, but putting the blame on Mike D'Antoni for what happened is ridiculous. No matter the coach, Kobe wasn't sitting tonight.


I'm not speaking necessarily for this game, but throughout the last half season in general. We might as well say Mike D'Antoni was exploiting Kobe. What coach will have his star player playing on top of injuries? All just to make the playoffs for Mike's coaching resume?


----------



## Basel

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Dre said:


> Don't say Billups is no Kobe cause Billup's rise from obscure to a legitimate all-star is all hard work and determination, that's nothing that Kobe ever had to deal with
> 
> You don't have to have a huge profile to have huge focus


I didn't mean it in that way. I meant he's no Kobe in terms of coming back from injury. Not trying to slight Chauncey at all.


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Would be terrible to see him go out like this. Wish him the speediest recovery. Huge loss to the game.


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



chilltown said:


> I still think Utah is going to lose their last 2 games unless they do something very un-utahish.


Still wouldn't matter if Utah won their last two games. The Lakers will always have the help of the officials. Just like the random foul on Curry that sent Blake to the line for two FREE throws. Up by 9 points with under five minutes left, you'd think GSW would have held the lead. Not in this Lakers-on-the-pedestal league.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Pioneer10 said:


> Sure he may play again but this is really probably the last we'll see of Kobe as we've known him. Players are more likely then not significantly diminished when they come back from Achilles and certainly not players of Kobe's age (i.e. Elton Brand, Billups)


shutup :sadto:


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Lakers fans shouldn't panic until the MRI result is released.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Pioneer is right though. Kobe should seriously consider retiring. It's not like he is coming back to a roster he is in love with. Hopefully he proves me wrong, but I just see it being depressing watching him try to assert himself as the dominant player he has been after that kind of injury at his age.


----------



## letsgoceltics

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Does this mean the Lakers won't win the title this year?


----------



## Drizzy

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Speedy recovery, Kobe. He will be back.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



JBKB said:


> I'm not speaking necessarily for this game, but throughout the last half season in general. We might as well say Mike D'Antoni was exploiting Kobe. What coach will have his star player playing on top of injuries? All just to make the playoffs for Mike's coaching resume?


Are you seriously this dumb? You must be doing this just to get replies.

There isn't a coach on this planet that can bench Kobe. He simply wouldn't allow a coach to limit his minutes, he knows what he can handle and knows what the team needs.

This injury has nothing to do with coaching or Kobe, hell it more than likely has nothing to do with how many minutes he's playing. Simply a random injury. That's all.


----------



## Jamel Irief

A better comparison than billups is nique. He tore his Achilles in his 30s and was still averaging 30 ppg as a 34 year old. 

Still premature to call it a tear. JBKB said he was faking and he's been right about the lakers making the playoffs. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Dre

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Pioneer is right though. Kobe should seriously consider retiring. It's not like he is coming back to a roster he is in love with. Hopefully he proves me wrong, but I just see it being depressing watching him try to assert himself as the dominant player he has been after that kind of injury at his age.


He's not considering retiring and won't for one second.

Even if he has to come back as say JR Smith and slowly realizes it over the course of the season there is more of a chance of Michael Jordan coming back and winning MVP than Kobe retiring or even admitting he considered quitting. 

We've been watching this guy for 16 years what has he done that we've seen that has made you think he'll be like "ouch this hurts i quit forever".

In the middle of a trial for his life where he was collapsing and convulsing after games he didn't consider a _break_, he's played through damn near every non debilitating injury there is, but somehow he should consider quitting

:2ti:

Don't let me be two for two...even if he's not the same he'll be valuable. He has so much of an arsenal that it's hard for him to not at least be a 20 point guy. I wouldn't doubt that this somehow helps him develop some aspect of his game...he's not ordinary


----------



## Kidd

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

So there's zero chance that he surprises everyone and comes back this season for the playoffs?


----------



## Dre

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

If it's not a substantial tear and the initial diagnosis is wrong sure

But by and large you're not going to say a flagship player has a season ending injury unless he does

Plus the tweet said he was crying like he knew this was it....athletes know from experience with other players when something is different


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

I'm not saying he is going to retire. I'm saying he should consider it. Kobe loves the game though and is competitive so he is going to play until his game goes Iverson and nobody wants him. I hope he doesn't go that route, because it will be depressing to watch.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

I honestly think his career is over. This sucks



> KEVIN DING @KevinDing
> Here is the pivotal clarification: Kobe's torn Achilles' tendon is expected to be a COMPLETE tear.


Kobe has played through a million injuries & ailments throughout his career, but this won't be one of them: "I can't. I can't walk." 

After the game:Kobe: "I can't walk. There's just nothing there."


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

And of course, this is assuming the injury is as bad as advertised.


----------



## Laker Freak

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

^^^ If that's true, I'm shocked he was even able to walk off the court by himself.


----------



## Kidd

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*


----------



## letsgoceltics

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

He'll play Game 1 in the playoffs. You guys all seen his MRI results?


----------



## Jamel Irief

Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm not saying he is going to retire. I'm saying he should consider it. Kobe loves the game though and is competitive so he is going to play until his game goes Iverson and nobody wants him. I hope he doesn't go that route, because it will be depressing to watch.


People didn't want iverson because of his attitude. Dude refused to be a 6th man. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

While he did walk off, you can tell he was trying to walk on his own with every single ounce of pride and determination left in him. I didn't realize the extent of the injury then, but watching him walk off like that live made me instantly thin "damn, hes hurt really bad"

You can just see it. If he comes back (hopefully) I just hope he isn't a shadow of his former self. At his age and mileage, I just don't see that kind of injury not impacting his game.

He cant leave like this. No way. Not like this. ****


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

However, now that I think about it...

He did make 2 FT's then walked off the court under his own power. I always thought when you tear an achilles, you can't put any weight on it and need to be helped off. I'm no doctor, but I didn't think you could walk at all on a torn achilles.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm not saying he is going to retire. I'm saying he should consider it. Kobe loves the game though and is competitive so he is going to play until his game goes Iverson and nobody wants him. I hope he doesn't go that route, because it will be depressing to watch.


He already said on multiple occasions he envisioned retiring within the next two years before this happened, because he wanted to retire on top, which implies he doesn't envision running it into the ground. 

This won't give him that option but he'll probably come back and give it at least one more season and playoff cycle on pride alone.

Just because he's not top 10 doesn't mean he shouldn't come back.

Furthermore it's not that no one wants what Iverson could offer right now no one wants Iverson and his stubbornness. If he was adaptable and willing to be a 6th man Iverson would be a perennial 6MOY candidate.


----------



## TheAnswer

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Unreal, some shit luck for the Lakers all season long and it ends with 24.

He'll be back for sure, anyone who thinks he's retiring or even thinking of retiring don't even know.


----------



## letsgoceltics

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Hey, I have a serious question. In all seriousness, if he truly is injured as advertised then what an amazing career it has been for him. Certainly brought me a lot of pain over the years. But if he comes back next game or the game after or even in the playoffs, after all this hoopla, how would you guys feel? Skeptical? Relieved? Duped?


----------



## Dre

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



letsgoceltics said:


> Hey, I have a serious question. In all seriousness, if he truly is injured as advertised then what an amazing career it has been for him. Certainly brought me a lot of pain over the years. But if he comes back next game or the game after or even in the playoffs, after all this hoopla, how would you guys feel? Skeptical? Relieved? Duped?


Well then its the media overreacting as usual


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

You think Kobe should retire?

Haha bitch please.

He'll be 35 in August. Pretty sure he'll give rehab a crack. If he can get back up to speed by next January then that'll be great. Let's all just calm the hell down and wait to see what happens. This season is lost - that much is clear.

But he should retire? STFU...he scored 34 tonight.


----------



## John

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

I wouldnt as he is due to a 30 million pay check next season. If I were like, I would be keep saying I will try to make it back so he will still get his money.


----------



## HKF

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Dam Phony ran him into the ground. Should be interesting to see if they still make the playoffs.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

I heard his achilles tendon was asking for it, I'm sure they'll settle out of court.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Kobe Bryant hate aside - my sympathy to Laker fans... I know the D-Rose injury felt like a gigantic kick in the balls that has lasted for an entire year.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Kobe's vicodin'd out rant on facebook. Mentions surgery "tomorrow."



> This is such BS! All the training and sacrifice just flew out the window with one step that I've done millions of times! The frustration is unbearable. The anger is rage. Why the hell did this happen ?!? Makes no damn sense. Now I'm supposed to come back from this and be the same player Or better at 35?!? How in the world am I supposed to do that??
> I have NO CLUE. Do I have the consistent will to overcome this thing? Maybe I should break out the rocking chair and reminisce on the career that
> was. Maybe this is how my book
> ends. Maybe Father Time has defeated me...Then again maybe not! It's 3:30am, my foot feels like dead weight, my head is spinning from the pain meds and I'm wide awake. Forgive my Venting but what's the purpose of social media if I won't bring it to you Real No Image?? Feels good to vent, let it out. To feel as if THIS is the WORST thing EVER! Because After ALL the venting, a real perspective sets in. There are far greater issues/challenges in the world then a torn achilles. Stop feeling sorry for yourself, find the silver lining and get to work with the same belief, same drive and same conviction as ever.
> One day, the beginning of a new career journey will commence. Today is NOT that day.
> "If you see me in a fight with a bear, prey for the bear". Ive always loved that quote. Thats "mamba mentality" we don't quit, we don't cower, we don't run. We endure and conquer.
> I know it's a long post but I'm Facebook Venting LOL. Maybe now I can actually get some sleep and be excited for surgery tomorrow. First step of a new challenge.
> Guess I will be Coach Vino the rest of this season. I have faith in my teammates. They will come thru.
> Thank you for all your prayers and support. Much Love Always.
> Mamba Out


----------



## Floods

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

It took grandpa Kobe a while to find social media but I'm glad he did.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



John said:


> I wouldnt as he is due to a 30 million pay check next season. If I were like, I would be keep saying I will try to make it back so he will still get his money.


nba has guaranteed contracts - more info for ya


----------



## Diable

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Not sure they are guaranteed if you retire, that's pretty much you deciding that you don't want to fulfill the contract. Of course, no one is going to retire and leave 30 million dollars on the table, dude has to feed his family.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

no way he retires without giving the comeback a shot - that's not in his make-up


----------



## Diable

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Very few people have it in their makeup to give up 30 million dollars. Honestly not sure that Amnestying him makes a lot of sense, as they have such a huge payroll it's not going to give them a ton of cap space. Something that might make sense is actually trying to trade his contract. Then you could improve your team for next year and sign Kobe again for something reasonable after his deal expires. That probably would not happen though.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Only way they amnesty him is if he gives his consent, knowing that he's going to out all next year. Break that 30 mil into 2-3 smaller contracts and make a run in 2014-2015 with an inproved roster and Kobe having a full year off to recover and strengthen that leg. No way they trade him.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Diable said:


> Very few people have it in their makeup to give up 30 million dollars. Honestly not sure that Amnestying him makes a lot of sense, as they have such a huge payroll it's not going to give them a ton of cap space. Something that might make sense is actually trying to trade his contract. Then you could improve your team for next year and sign Kobe again for something reasonable after his deal expires. That probably would not happen though.


If he was due 5 million he'd still come back. If he retired on a step to the basket it would ruin the rest of his life. 

Fans, they watch a guy for 17 years and still don't know anything about his personality. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## GNG

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Kobe said:


> The frustration is unbearable.
> The anger is rage.
> Why the hell did this happen ?!?
> Makes no damn sense.
> Now I'm supposed to come back from this and be the same player
> Or better at 35?!?
> How in the world am I supposed to do that??
> I have NO CLUE.
> Do I have the consistent will to overcome this thing?
> Maybe I should break out the rocking chair and reminisce on the career that was.
> Maybe this is how my book ends.
> Maybe Father Time has defeated me...
> Then again maybe not!


I read this in the same tone as LeBron's "What Should I Do?" commercial.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Originally Posted by Kobe
The frustration is unbearable.
The anger is rage.
Why the hell did this happen ?!?
Makes no damn sense.
Now I'm supposed to come back from this and be the same player
Or better at 35?!?
How in the world am I supposed to do that??
I have NO CLUE.
Do I have the consistent will to overcome this thing?
Maybe I should break out the rocking chair and reminisce on the career that was.
Maybe this is how my book ends.
Maybe Father Time has defeated me...
Then again maybe not!

Oh god he comes the "omg it's the end of the world for me this is so devastating blah blah blah, but my "will" will triumph and come back"

typical kobe. Just shut the **** up and do what everyone else did with an injury. rehab and comeback you dipshit....you don't have to be such a god damn drama queen about it.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

He's not retiring, guys...

He's going to collect $30 million next season, mostly rehabbing. He'll probably get another huge three-year contract after that.

I compare this to Larry Bird's ankle limiting him to just six games in his age-32 season. He still came back as Larry Bird but wasn't really LARRY BIRD aside from a successful return season and glimpses after that.

He also returned to a different situation with different teammates and eventually a different coach. The Celtics were trending toward a transitional phase much like the Lakers are doing now. Bird labored through all the injuries that had piled up until finally retiring three years later.

Think we'll eventually look at this injury to Kobe in the same way.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

I also can't ever remember any athlete walking and putting weight on his foot after tearing his Achilles either...


----------



## bircan

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

So sad :no:. All the best to Kobe on his recovery journey. The only solace is that this team wasn't realistically contending for the championship this year. 

I hope the team gets Nash back soon and pulls together some type of run for Kobe. Maybe we will see Gasol and Dwight take over, it could be interesting, who knows.


----------



## letsgoceltics

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



doctordrizzay said:


> Originally Posted by Kobe
> The frustration is unbearable.
> The anger is rage.
> Why the hell did this happen ?!?
> Makes no damn sense.
> Now I'm supposed to come back from this and be the same player
> Or better at 35?!?
> How in the world am I supposed to do that??
> I have NO CLUE.
> Do I have the consistent will to overcome this thing?
> Maybe I should break out the rocking chair and reminisce on the career that was.
> Maybe this is how my book ends.
> Maybe Father Time has defeated me...
> Then again maybe not!
> 
> Oh god he comes the "omg it's the end of the world for me this is so devastating blah blah blah, but my "will" will triumph and come back"
> 
> typical kobe. Just shut the **** up and do what everyone else did with an injury. rehab and comeback you dipshit....you don't have to be such a god damn drama queen about it.


LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

This Clint Eastwood act is getting quite old.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> He's not retiring, guys...
> 
> He's going to collect $30 million next season, mostly rehabbing. He'll probably get another *huge three-year contract *after that.


if he does come back for another contract it wont be huge


----------



## GNG

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



e-monk said:


> if he does come back for another contract it wont be huge


Not $30 million, but certainly comparable to the top stars.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



> @mcten: Kobe will have surgery today at 1 p.m. to repair his fully ruptured Achilles tendon. Trainer Gary Vitti says 6-9 month recovery





> @mcten: Will Kobe be ready for the season opener next season? Lakers trainer Gary Vitti: "That's the plan"


..



> @Lakers: Vitti: “He’s already accepted the challenge. For us, the hardest part will be keeping him down.” The Mamba’s legendary drive & desire again.


..


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Expecting him for the season opener seems like a reach. I think Kobe returns during the season and decides on how long he wants to continue to play at the end of that season.


----------



## Floods

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

No way in hell he's back for opening night.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

I'd have to guess he misses close to half the season and probably isn't all that healthy after that. It's difficult to speculate on what the Lakers will look like next year, but it's pretty safe to bet that they won't significantly improve that roster. Unless Howard is a lot better and a lot less of a bitch they probably aren't going to be in a very good position by the time Kobe gets back, and there's no reason to believe that the West still won't be really deep with good teams. No one really knows what Howard does either. I don't feel as though I can use logic to envision what he might do.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

6-9 months seems low. I understand it's Kobe, but he'll be 35. These injuries seem to keep guys out close to 300 days, particularly over 30. He'll be back earlier in the season than Rose is in this one. That's for sure.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Jamel Irief said:


> If he was due 5 million he'd still come back. If he retired on a step to the basket it would ruin the rest of his life.
> 
> Fans, they watch a guy for 17 years and still don't know anything about his personality.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App



It's not that we don't believe he wont be back. As a matter of fact, I think all of us expect him to come back because we know that isn't the way he is going to go down. 

It's just when he comes back, how good will he be? What Kobe are we going to see? A shadow? Slowed down? Afraid? a oft-injured Chauncy Billups or a washed up Elton Brand like player?

This is something to worry about. I cant think of any player out there who ruptured this tendon and came back 100%. 

I think these are what people are questioning. He will be back that's for sure, but what are we going to see?


----------



## Smath

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

smh , I'v been a lakers fan since I was 7 years old , I watched ALL of the lakers games this season on NBA league pass , even though some of them were at 5 am for me , Like always I watched the game last night , and got heart broken :/ this is truley the saddest thing I ever seen in the NBA , Imo Kobe is the best sports man in history of all sports he freaking shot 2 FT's with raptured achillis , sad day for basketball , I was tearing when I saw that interview.


----------



## Jamel Irief

OneBadLT123 said:


> It's not that we don't believe he wont be back. As a matter of fact, I think all of us expect him to come back because we know that isn't the way he is going to go down.
> 
> It's just when he comes back, how good will he be? What Kobe are we going to see? A shadow? Slowed down? Afraid? a oft-injured Chauncy Billups or a washed up Elton Brand like player?
> 
> This is something to worry about. I cant think of any player out there who ruptured this tendon and came back 100%.
> 
> I think these are what people are questioning. He will be back that's for sure, but what are we going to see?


Billups and brand sucked before they got hurt. Stop using them.

Dominque Wilkins son. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Jamel Irief said:


> Billups and brand sucked before they got hurt. Stop using them.
> 
> Dominque Wilkins son.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Brand and Billups didnt really suck that bad before their injures, sure they weren't great, but after the injury they were much, much worse players. Wilkins did recover and came back very good player in 92 but at the point Wilkins got injured he didn't have half the mileage Kobe did.

I'm not saying he wont be back, but most of the time this isn't a good outlook. We'll see.


----------



## Smath

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

btw I sure hope he doesn't retire , if thats the last game we see kobe in I'll be crushed. do players even recover from such an injury?


----------



## scdn

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Dre said:


> Don't say Billups is no Kobe cause Billup's rise from obscure to a legitimate all-star is all hard work and determination, that's nothing that Kobe ever had to deal with
> 
> You don't have to have a huge profile to have huge focus


When was Billups obscure? He was drafted 3rd overall.


----------



## nogniogstawkdiczar

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Initial reaction on kobe's injury ...... "THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!! FUCCCCCCCCCCCK DAM.... this achilles tendon tear best exemplifies how kobe's gotten all this "phantom fouls calls" all his career.. HE RIPS HIS TENDON AND ITS A FOUL ON BARNES!?!?! BARNES DOESNT TOUCH HIM AND KOBE GETS 2 FTS?!?!? THIS SURE IS OUTRAGEOUS"


----------



## nogniogstawkdiczar

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Initial reaction to Kobe's "introspective" facebook post: " "stop ****en interviewing yourself..just cause, as the season moves on no one will interview, don't mean u gotta interview yourself now.... if u keep talkin to yourself you'll end up in an mental assylum with a room mate named Pigeon who thinks hes Michal Jackson" .. prrrrrrr


----------



## nogniogstawkdiczar

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

I hate how because of this injury.. ppl r gona come up with fictitious, delusional nostalgic memories on how kobe was "great" all throughout his career, similar to how ppl look back on the 50s "leave it to beaver' and reminiscence over a greater time, when in actuality its just figments of the imagination... (eyyyy FONZE THUMBS UP )


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



nogniogstawkdiczar said:


> I hate how because of this injury.. ppl r gona come up with fictitious, delusional nostalgic memories on how kobe was "great" all throughout his career, similar to how ppl look back on the 50s "leave it to beaver' and reminiscence over a greater time, when in actuality its just figments of the imagination... (eyyyy FONZE THUMBS UP )


Okay um welcome to the forums, if you wouldn't mind, could you just post all these statements into one post rather than make them separately? Yea thanks.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

There was enough contact on the drive to justify a whistle, despite the fact that he didn't go down because of the contact.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Amnesty Kobe
Sign Chris Paul and Dwight Howard
Sign Kobe on the cheap

Kobe
Chris
Artest
Gasol
Howard

Rick Adelman?

:groucho:


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Kobe Bean Bryant is one smart dude! That's all I'll say.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



OneBadLT123 said:


> Amnesty Kobe
> Sign Chris Paul and Dwight Howard
> Sign Kobe on the cheap
> 
> Kobe
> Chris
> Artest
> Gasol
> Howard
> 
> Rick Adelman?
> 
> :groucho:


Why would Paul sign up for that team?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



JBKB said:


> Kobe Bean Bryant is one smart dude! That's all I'll say.


And why do you say that?


----------



## darknezx

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



JBKB said:


> Kobe Bean Bryant is one smart dude! That's all I'll say.


I don't get some posters, honestly. Anything Kobe does, becomes used to justify why he sucks. I'm not a Kobe fan, but I sure am appreciative of what he has achieved. And I cannot help but ask, how can anyone reasonably say that he purposely injured his Achilles (for any reason in the world)?


----------



## Jace

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

The topic of Kobe brings out the crazy in some people.


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



darknezx said:


> I don't get some posters, honestly. Anything Kobe does, becomes used to justify why he sucks. I'm not a Kobe fan, but I sure am appreciative of what he has achieved. And I cannot help but ask, how can anyone reasonably say that he purposely injured his Achilles (for any reason in the world)?


Anyone who says Kobe sucks, or tries to justify that he sucks, is doing so out of hatred, not logic. I personally think Kobe is among the most talented, and among the greatest I have ever seen play the game of basketball. 

However, the man does make excuses. When he wins, it's because of the greatness of Kobe. When he loses, it's because of his injuries. Not only does Kobe believe this, but this is also how the media presents Kobe. 

When Kobe has a struggling night, the media remind us that Kobe is injured. When Kobe has a great scoring night, the media say "injuries won't stop Bryant." So in essence, there is no such thing as a bad game for Kobe, because media and fans will always deem Kobe's excuses as valid for his bad performance.

Finally, any time Kobe is about to face extreme embarrassment in a crucial game, playoff series, etc., he finds ways to cleverly evade that embarrassment. Just last month Kobe missed a crucial shot in the near end of the 4th quarter, and instead of losing like a man and accepting his defeat, he whimpered on the floor about how much pain he was in from landing on Dahntay Jones's foot, blaming Jones for the loss. 

I said Kobe was faking his injury on the Dahntay Jones' play, and sure enough he magically came back to play the next game. He was just making an excuse for the loss, and SOLD IT WELL!

No doubt about it, Kobe is among the best the league can offer. However, he is also one of the biggest whiners and excuse makers the league has seen as well. 

Again, if this new injury isn't staged, then I wish Kobe 100% recovery. Well, let's just grab a bowl of popcorn and see what the media make of this story.opcorn:


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Jace said:


> Why would Paul sign up for that team?


1. They are not the Clippers

2. Would probably contend for a title easily

3. Much better coach than both currently have

4. Stern will be gone and no "basketball reasons" BS

5. They are not the Clippers


----------



## NOFX22

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Here are some facts about the 2013 Lakers FTA advantage since March.

21 games is not a small sample size. It is a quarter of a season worth of games.

1. They have shot an avg of 12.4 more FTA per game than the opposition. 2. No team in NBA history has ever averaged that more FTA per game over an 82 game season. Basically since the beginning of March the 2013 LAL, a team stuck around .50, has been the greatest team in NBA history at drawing a free throw advantage. 3. Teams playing LAL has shot 5.36 less FTA than their season average. 4. They have shot under their seasonal FTA in 19 of 21 games.


----------



## Jamel Irief

NOFX22 said:


> Here are some facts about the 2013 Lakers FTA advantage since March.
> 
> 21 games is not a small sample size. It is a quarter of a season worth of games.
> 
> 1. They have shot an avg of 12.4 more FTA per game than the opposition. 2. No team in NBA history has ever averaged that more FTA per game over an 82 game season. Basically since the beginning of March the 2013 LAL, a team stuck around .50, has been the greatest team in NBA history at drawing a free throw advantage. 3. Teams playing LAL has shot 5.36 less FTA than their season average. 4. They have shot under their seasonal FTA in 19 of 21 games.


5. They have a better record than the clippers


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> Not $30 million, but certainly comparable to the top stars.


no - bargain basement so he can get that precious metal


----------



## Diable

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



OneBadLT123 said:


> Amnesty Kobe
> Sign Chris Paul and Dwight Howard
> Sign Kobe on the cheap
> 
> Kobe
> Chris
> Artest
> Gasol
> Howard
> 
> Rick Adelman?
> 
> :groucho:


You can't sign a player after you amnesty them. Not seeing how Paul is very likely to sign there. The Clippers will do what they can to keep him.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



NOFX22 said:


> Here are some facts about the 2013 Lakers FTA advantage since March.
> 
> 21 games is not a small sample size. It is a quarter of a season worth of games.
> 
> 1. They have shot an avg of 12.4 more FTA per game than the opposition. 2. No team in NBA history has ever averaged that more FTA per game over an 82 game season. Basically since the beginning of March the 2013 LAL, a team stuck around .50, has been the greatest team in NBA history at drawing a free throw advantage. 3. Teams playing LAL has shot 5.36 less FTA than their season average. 4. They have shot under their seasonal FTA in 19 of 21 games.


It's called Hack a Howard.... Look it up.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Diable said:


> You can't sign a player after you amnesty them. Not seeing how Paul is very likely to sign there. The Clippers will do what they can to keep him.


Yes you can. You just have to wait until their current contract expires which in Kobe's case is after next year.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

It's sad to see a player like Kobe go down.

But in a weird way this injury could be a blessing in disguise for the Lakers. The Lakers weren't going anywhere this season and now the team will be forced to become Dwight Howard's team, which is a necessary step for them to improve. When Kobe comes back I'd imagine the Lakers will still be Howard's team and Kobe will have an easier time accepting it coming off injury.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Is he going to retire?









Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Basel

He's coming back with a vengeance and he's going to play at a high level. Just watch.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



JBKB said:


> However, the man does make excuses. When he wins, it's because of the greatness of Kobe. When he loses, it's because of his injuries. Not only does Kobe believe this, but this is also how the media presents Kobe.
> 
> When Kobe has a struggling night, the media remind us that Kobe is injured. When Kobe has a great scoring night, the media say "injuries won't stop Bryant." So in essence, there is no such thing as a bad game for Kobe, because media and fans will always deem Kobe's excuses as valid for his bad performance.


You want me to pretend you aren't a troll? Okay, I'll pretend you're not a troll for the time being.

The Media didn't use injuries or excuses when Kobe and the Lakers were flat out embarrassed by the Detroit Pistons in 2004. They didn't use excuses or injuries when they were beat by the Boston Celtics and were destroyed in game 6 of that finals series in 2008. And it's one thing to use excuses, but injuries aren't just random whiny excuses players use. They sure as hell didn't use any excuses when they were swept by the Dallas Mavericks, a team that wasn't expected to go far, in the second round of the playoffs in 2011, they were outplayed, and the Mavericks were a better team. The media even admitted to this.

Kobe wasn't using excuses when he couldn't make a damn shot in the crucial game 7 series against Boston, he admitted he was having a horrible shooting night and gave credit where credit was due to his teammates for bailing him out of that game and helping the Lakers win the series. So this whole "when the Lakers win, it's because of the greatness of Kobe" bs is just flat out stupid. 



JBKB said:


> Finally, any time Kobe is about to face extreme embarrassment in a crucial game, playoff series, etc., he finds ways to cleverly evade that embarrassment. Just last month Kobe missed a crucial shot in the near end of the 4th quarter, and instead of losing like a man and accepting his defeat, he whimpered on the floor about how much pain he was in from landing on Dahntay Jones's foot, blaming Jones for the loss.
> 
> I said Kobe was faking his injury on the Dahntay Jones' play, and sure enough he magically came back to play the next game. He was just making an excuse for the loss, and SOLD IT WELL!


It was confirmed by numerous sources (including pics) that Kobe's injury was real. So you're entire statement is not only wrong but it shows us all how intelligent you truly are.

Now I'll just respond to this in a trolling matter.

Okay, yea, you're right. Kobe was faking it. All those pictures of the scans of his ankle were clearly fake, and yea, his torn Achilles is obviously fake, since he just doesn't want to be embarrassed against despite the fact there was a time when the team he was on didn't even make the playoffs and he didn't fake any season ending injuries to cover up for the embarrassment, this is him clearly just faking the entire thing and trying to get attention and sympathy.

Edit: This is fun


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

seriously, I just dont get it, maybe if it was my 3 year old nephew looking for any kind of attention even if it's negative it would be understandable but this is supposed to be an adult person and he's not only going out of the way to act like an idiot but he's just basking in it

dude well done, everyone here thinks you're a stupid jackass, mission accomplished


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



e-monk said:


> seriously, I just dont get it, maybe if it was my 3 year old nephew looking for any kind of attention even if it's negative it would be understandable but this is supposed to be an adult person and he's not only going out of the way to act like an idiot but he's just basking in it
> 
> dude well done, everyone here thinks you're a stupid jackass, mission accomplished


That's not even the worst part. Sometimes he's actually right, but he says it in the most idiotic ways. If that wasn't the case most of the time when he made a idiotic thread, then I would honestly think he is just a idiot but that's not the case.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Just put him on ignore. Its not that hard. Eventually the act will stop cause nobody is giving him the attention he wants.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Well at least Kobe can shine Lebron's MVP trophy while Bron's in playoffs.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

classy


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



OneBadLT123 said:


> Just put him on ignore. Its not that hard. Eventually the act will stop cause nobody is giving him the attention he wants.


Bingo. 

I have a harder time understanding why e-monk is so consumed by him than understanding what JBKB is trying to accomplish.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Jamel Irief said:


> Bingo.
> 
> I have a harder time understanding why e-monk is so consumed by him than understanding what JBKB is trying to accomplish.


Your avatar is amazing.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

Kobe doesn't feel pain. It's why I was surprised he even took vicodin.


----------



## Mrs. Thang

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

I barely watch any NBA games anymore and don't particularly care for the product it puts out, but I would be wildly entertained if the Lakers somehow went on a run behind Dwight Howard and won Kobe that vaunted sixth ring with him sitting on the bench like Adam Morrison.


----------



## JBKB

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Mrs. Thang said:


> I barely watch any NBA games anymore and don't particularly care for the product it puts out, but I would be wildly entertained if the Lakers somehow went on a run behind Dwight Howard and won Kobe that vaunted sixth ring with him sitting on the bench like Adam Morrison.


Write a friendly letter to Stern.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*

I stopped reading JBKB after his second or third post. Now I just read the first four words or whatever, get the gist and either call him a moron or keep scrolling.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> I stopped reading JBKB after his second or third post. Now I just read the first four words or whatever, get the gist and either call him a moron or keep scrolling.


In a way I'm kind of glad these people give him attention. I'd feel kind of bad if he was putting more effort into this site than 80% of the mods and getting ignored.


----------



## Maravilla

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Jamel Irief said:


> In a way I'm kind of glad these people give him attention. *I'd feel kind of bad if he was putting more effort into this site than 80% of the mods and getting ignored*.


bazinga


----------



## GNG

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Jamel Irief said:


> In a way I'm kind of glad these people give him attention. I'd feel kind of bad if he was putting more effort into this site than 80% of the mods and getting ignored.


bazinga


----------



## Basel

Jamel Irief said:


> In a way I'm kind of glad these people give him attention. I'd feel kind of bad if he was putting more effort into this site than 80% of the mods and getting ignored.


bazinga


----------



## Basel

Kobe wins Player of the Week. Bittersweet.


----------



## Seuss

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Basel said:


> Kobe wins Player of the Week.



The refs are in on it.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Breaking News: Kobe Has A Probable Torn Achilles*



Jamel Irief said:


> Bingo.
> 
> I have a harder time understanding why e-monk is so consumed by him than understanding what JBKB is trying to accomplish.


it's fascinating to me - I mean I havent really engaged with him other than to insult him in a long time and insulting someone is not really a thing that requires much effort


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*kobe haters*

Why does everyone hate kobe so much? I want opinions from everyone. I dont understand. Is it because they dont have the chance us lakers fans have had to watch him or what?


----------



## Floods

*Re: kobe haters*

christ


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: kobe haters*

This guy is 4 threads away from being made a mod. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: kobe haters*

Whats that mean?


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: kobe haters*

They like people that post a lot and promote them to leadership positions even if they don't really do anything with it but post in the mod board. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: kobe haters*

So tell me what i havent done? I havent done anything worth reading? Lol. Cmon now.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: kobe haters*

Not what I said. We just have a lot of mods that don't really moderate or facilitate activity. They just do everything they did as a poster. Floods is always whining about it. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: kobe haters*

Oh i see what your talking about. Idk what else i could possibly do but post. What else is there to do around this place?


----------



## Basel

*Re: kobe haters*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Oh i see what your talking about. Idk what else i could possibly do but post. What else is there to do around this place?


Go post in the Million Post thread. Everyone loves Kobe in there. Link is in my sig. Help us achieve our goal.


----------



## Floods

*Re: kobe haters*



Jamel Irief said:


> Not what I said. We just have a lot of mods that don't really moderate or facilitate activity. They just do everything they did as a poster. Floods is always whining about it.


Someone has to.


----------



## Floods

*Re: kobe haters*



Basel said:


> Go post in the Million Post thread. Everyone loves Kobe in there. Link is in my sig. Help us achieve our goal.


noooooooooooooo


----------



## Basel

*Re: kobe haters*

Million Post Thread haters are worse than Kobe haters.

By the way, Kobe's the best.


----------



## Floods

*Re: kobe haters*



Basel said:


> Million Post Thread haters are worse than Kobe haters.


You got me wrong. I enjoy the MPT, and I don't want that to change, which is why you should rescind that invitation.


----------



## Basel

*Re: kobe haters*



Floods said:


> You got me wrong. I enjoy the MPT, and I don't want that to change, which is why you should rescind that invitation.


I was just playing, anyway. I know you post in there. :laugh:


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Kobe Bryant*

Kobe Bryant is one of, maybe the greatest scorer of all-time (not refering to efficency, not his strong point). Kobe has the mid-range jumper_ he can penetrate- he can post up and shoot the three. Kobe, when he was young, was an excellent defender. The dude has shown everyone he really doesnt have a ceiling. In an issue of SLAM! magazine that was released earlier this year, he said he has nothing left to proove. This was true until he got injured. Now he is out to proove all the doubters that he can, at age 35 after an achillies injury, come back and still be dominant. Theres no doubt in my mind, that he will come back and be dominant. Whether he will be dunking on guys again is unknown but does it really matter? Hes the best non-big man with a post game. Hes still going to be a threat.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Kobe Bryant*

This has been a paid advertisement by Black Mamba Inc., L.L.C ©. All rights reserved.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: kobe haters*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Why does everyone hate kobe so much? I want opinions from everyone. I dont understand. Is it because they dont have the chance us lakers fans have had to watch him or what?


You're obviously to young to remember this...you probably weren't even born.

Kobe was part of the greatest tradegy in all of sports. He wasn't deserving of his rings which is why people hate him.


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: Kobe Bryant*

I wish we could @tag users into threads. I would @JBKB into this thread and let him and Mamba go at it while I opcorn:


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe Bryant*

I never realized Kobe was good until I read this thread. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Kobe Bryant*

Enough with the sarcasam lol.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Kobe Bryant*

Basketball is a sport.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Kobe Bryant*

He wasn't deserving of his rings


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Kobe Bryant*



doctordrizzay said:


> He wasn't deserving of his rings
> 
> The Greatest Tragedy in Sports part 6 - YouTube


Your insane and have absolutely no respect for what a real athlete or a REAL champion is. Go kiss lebrons feet some more. Kobe worked hard for all of his titles you fool. Gtfo man. Im not even going to respond to your posts. Do you know why shaq was traded? Because he was a thirty year old who wanted max money and was coming to camp out of shape. Good thing they didnt give him max money, he had 2 decent years after he left LA. shaq was no longer dominant after they lost to Detroit. Ben Wallace shut shaqs a** down. Smh


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Kobe Bryant*

And your baseing the fact that he doesnt deserve his rings on bogus calls by refs who were gmabling? Gtfo man. That shit happend 11 years ago and the kings havent been relevant since. I lived in sacramento, nasty dirty hole. Yeah it was wrong but its done and over with. Lebron doesnt deserve his ring either. Last years finals was the worst officiating screw job ive ever seen, courtesy of David Stern.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: kobe haters*

Too young? Lol i was 14 years old dude. Its kobes fault the refs made bad calls? No, not even.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> And your baseing the fact that he doesnt deserve his rings on bogus calls by refs who were gmabling? Gtfo man. That shit happend 11 years ago and the kings havent been relevant since. I lived in sacramento, nasty dirty hole. Yeah it was wrong but its done and over with. Lebron doesnt deserve his ring either. Last years finals was the worst officiating screw job ive ever seen, courtesy of David Stern.


I'm pretty sure the officiating had nothing to do with Mike Miller hitting 6 three pointers in the close out game.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: kobe haters*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Too young? Lol i was 14 years old dude. Its kobes fault the refs made bad calls? No, not even.


Still didn`t deserve four of his rings, People outside of California think of him as the over privileged "super-star" meaning he got the best calls, the best athletes to play with him like Shaq. The NBA tried to make him the new Jordan for marketing purposes. He is widely regarded as the downfall of professional sports credibility.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time


Mamba 2.0v explain this? Nothing but truth. Read the article, and get some insight. 

*Trailing by one or two points, or tied, in the final 24 seconds of regular-season and playoff games since 1996-97, with a minimum of 30 shots. From Alok Pattani of ESPN Stats & Information.

Kobe Bryant 36/115 31.3%FG*

People don't remember all the times he has missed, which is easily more than anyone ever in history of the NBA.

Statistics show.

"When Bryant is on the floor in crunch time, Bryant's Lakers are actually outscored by their opponents.

A great offensive team performing at average levels, with a star setting records for number of shots attempted. Teammates left wide open. Evidence, even, that Bryant's play puts his team into nailbiters that needn't be so close.

That, my friends, is a ball hog."


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

This has been a dirty, little not-so-secret for awhile now with Kobe.


----------



## 23isback

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

I'd rather have my superstar player rise to the challenge in those moments than shy away from them (ie Lebron pre-2012).


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

Kind of like how Chauncey Billups is/was "Mr. Big shot" yet was actually atrocious in clutch situations. I remember looking at 82games.com clutch stats a while back and Billups' numbers were worse than basically every single player in the league.


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

I actually just read the article drizzay posted, and it does mention the myth of Mr. Big Shot as well:



> In that player poll, Chauncey Billups got the second-most votes as the preferred go-to crunch-time scorer. Billups is 3-of-27 with the game on the line over the past five seasons. Dead last in the NBA among those who have attempted at least 15 shots.


Article is from 1/28/11.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*



23isback said:


> I'd rather have my superstar player rise to the challenge in those moments than shy away from them (ie Lebron pre-2012).


This is horribly inaccurate. Lebron when he was in Cleveland had no problem taking the last shot, and he always rose up to the challenge, because he knew he needed to.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*



23isback said:


> I'd rather have my superstar player rise to the challenge in those moments than shy away from them (ie Lebron pre-2012).


Oh you mean this?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

Surprised Mamba hasn't responded to this yet.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

troll bait


----------



## 23isback

*Re: kobe haters*



doctordrizzay said:


> Still didn`t deserve four of his rings, People outside of California think of him as the over privileged "super-star" meaning he got the best calls, the best athletes to play with him like Shaq. The NBA tried to make him the new Jordan for marketing purposes. He is widely regarded as the downfall of professional sports credibility.


Kobe haters are just as ridiculous as Kobe riders. Smh.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Surprised Mamba hasn't responded to this yet.


Because he can't argue Kobe sucks in the clutch. And Lebron is amazing.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*



doctordrizzay said:


> Oh you mean this?
> 
> LeBron James takes over Game 5! - YouTube


His team didn't win shit. Say what you want about kobe. This thread has been dead for days fool. Lebron isn't amazing in the clutch you troll. When lebron has five titles, come talk to me. I just got done responding to another thread and if you want to know what i think, go read it for yourself...not doing this again tonight. All i will say is that lebron needs 2 current and 2 former all-stars to win a ring. Kobe has never had the team lebron has in miami, period.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

And if you want to talk clutch, durant has hit more game winners than lebron already. What about melo? Hell id rather have wades old bum ass shooting the last shot. Pretty sad a kid who has a few scoring titles and no mvps is more clutch than an established nba champion and melo has hit a hell of alot more shots than lbj too. And ill take kobe over lebron anyday


----------



## 23isback

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*



doctordrizzay said:


> Oh you mean this?
> 
> LeBron James takes over Game 5! - YouTube


Selecting only certain stats/videos to fit your argument can work both ways.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> And if you want to talk clutch, durant has hit more game winners than lebron already. What about melo? Hell id rather have wades old bum ass shooting the last shot. Pretty sad a kid who has a few scoring titles and no mvps is more clutch than an established nba champion and melo has hit a hell of alot more shots than lbj too. And ill take kobe over lebron anyday


Why is that pretty sad? We already know Durant is a gifted scorer. So is Carmelo. Lebron's biggest strength in the game of basketball is making plays for others and making others better. So how is that sad? 

How are we supposed to take the things you say seriously when you don't even understand why Lebron is great in the first place?



Mamba v2.0 said:


> His team didn't win shit. Say what you want about kobe. This thread has been dead for days fool. Lebron isn't amazing in the clutch you troll. When lebron has five titles, come talk to me.


You rely way to much on the title argument, when the fact of the matter is winning a championship is something you accomplish through team play, not individual play. And yet despite that Lebron still came the closest any NBA player has ever gotten to being the first player to win a championship literally by himself. 

And lol Lebron isn't amazing in the clutch. So then tell me what you have to say about the video the other troll posted? A video that shows Lebron destroying the Pistons, a team that wrecked Kobe and the Lakers in the finals, by himself? 



Mamba v2.0 said:


> I just got done responding to another thread and if you want to know what i think, go read it for yourself...not doing this again tonight. All i will say is that lebron needs 2 current and 2 former all-stars to win a ring. Kobe has never had the team lebron has in miami, period.


And yet you claim that Kobe's old team with Shaq could beat the team Miami currently has? And here you are praising the team like it's the greatest one in the history of the NBA? I can't even begin to count the amount of times you've contradicted yourself when trying to make Kobe look good. 

Lebron is not the most clutch player in the history of the NBA. Neither is Kobe. The argument could easily be made that one is better than the other in that particular area, but the one thing I've noticed so far is that in this thread you have yet to counter the argument being made here against Kobe, which is that Kobe is not clutch, and that Lebron is more clutch than him. Until I see you make such an argument, I see nothing other than you admitting that Lebron's more clutch.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*



23isback said:


> Selecting only certain stats/videos to fit your argument can work both ways.


What seasons is the last one referring to?


----------



## Luke

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

**** your numbers Kobe was the primary closer on 5 title teams and 7 finalists. Whatever your definition of "clutch" is, Kobe is "clutch".

So is LeBron. I swear y'all don't even watch the game you spend hours writing novellas on.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## 23isback

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*



XxIrvingxX said:


> What seasons is the last one referring to?


2009-10 - 2011-12


----------



## Floods

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

Jesus christ. This drizzay/mamba thing makes a typical youtube fight look intellectual.


----------



## Floods

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

Imagine if clutch actually existed? That'd be pretty bizarre.


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

Man I don't know. I used to hate Kobe so much. He definitely at times can be detrimental to his team late in the game (sub 5 minutes). Sometimes he puts them out of position for it to be a close game at the end. However, I can't count how many times I'd be watching a game and go "Man I know Kobe is going to hit this" and bam. This season against the Raptors, for example, was crazy. He hits some amazing shots with the game on the line. 

Sub 1 minute I wouldn't want anyone else on my team other than Kobe. 5 minutes to 1 minute I can think of others I'd rather have.


----------



## Ben

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*



Floods said:


> Jesus christ. This drizzay/mamba thing makes a typical youtube fight look intellectual.


Throw in Irvings insight too and I feel myself getting dumber by the day.


Sent from Verticalsports.com App


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*



Ben said:


> Throw in Irvings insight too and I feel myself getting dumber by the day.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com App


Should i dumb it down in a way you understand?


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Should i dumb it down in a way you understand?


Let's stay on topic.

Was Vlade Divac clutch?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*



hobojoe said:


> Let's stay on topic.
> 
> Was Vlade Divac clutch?


Apparently he was, gave that magic team a lot of problems. 

Guess that explains the piss poor excuse for a fanbase they have.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*






Irving please watch the video before you claim kobe isnt clutch. And hibachi, i posted a video of kobe schorcing the raptors but irving had nothing to say about it because he thinks kobe is awful in the clutch and claims lebron is amazing in the clutch. Not sure why he thinks that cuz lebron chokes more times than not. Anyways watch the video before you try and say kobe isnt clutch


----------



## Floods

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

The level of sheer stupid in that post stripped the paint off my walls.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*

Thats what they refer to as clutch. Wtf is wrong with you? Lol. If you dont like the thread stay off of it.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: The Truth About Kobe in the Clutch*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> *UPDATED* All Kobe Bryant Game Winners (28 total) - YouTube
> 
> Irving please watch the video before you claim kobe isnt clutch. And hibachi, i posted a video of kobe schorcing the raptors but irving had nothing to say about it because he thinks kobe is awful in the clutch and claims lebron is amazing in the clutch. Not sure why he thinks that cuz lebron chokes more times than not. Anyways watch the video before you try and say kobe isnt clutch


I never once claimed Kobe isn't clutch. Do you even read the comments before responding to them?


----------



## Pablo5

*Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/kobe-bryant-does-not-want-pay-cut-help-125531553.html


He will be the sole reason why the Lakers will become this year's Boston Celtics


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

someone's got a Kobe boner!


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

Did you actually hear or watch the interview? Or are you just reading the text and pretending you know what you're talking about?


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Basel said:


> Did you actually hear or watch the interview? Or are you just reading the text and pretending you know what you're talking about?


Ill find you another article saying the same thing. Hence the reason why Howard went to H-Town.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

I don't care about the article. Did you hear or watch the actual interview or not? Simple question.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Kobe Bryant - Not taking any pay cut at all*

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/7/11/4514974/kobe-bryant-contract-lakers-pay-cut

Kobe Bryant says he won't take pay cut in next contract.



> Kobe Bryant won't be a free agent until next summer, but the Los Angeles Lakers superstar isn't planning on leaving Hollywood if he can help it. It won't necessarily be cheap for the Lakers to keep the NBA's highest-paid player, however, according to comments Bryant made to Lakers Nation's Serena Winters.
> 
> Bryant told ESPN's Ramona Shelburne that he's waiting until the dust settles before approaching the Lakers' front office to talk about an extension to his deal. When that talk does happen, however, Bryant told Lakers Nation that he's not going to go in to the negotiations expecting to take a pay cut.
> 
> * "I'm not taking any (pay cut) at all - that's the negotiation that you have to have," Kobe Bryant told Lakers Nation in an exclusive interview at his Kobe Basketball Academy on Wednesday. "For me to sit here and say, ‘Oh yeah, I'm just going to take a huge pay cut. Nah, I'm going to try to get as much as I possibly can."*
> 
> Bryant has already made just shy of $250 million in salary with the Lakers over the course of his career and is scheduled to make an additional $30,453,805 for the upcoming season. If he takes another max contract, it'll make it a bit more difficult for the Lakers to fill out a solid roster beyond the 2014 season -- a season that could look much different for the Lakers considering only Steve Nash is currently under contract past next year.
> 
> Considering he'll be 35 this year and is coming off a season-ending injury, though, it'll be interesting to see whether or not the Lakers feel like making that kind of investment in their superstar.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Basel said:


> I don't care about the article. Did you hear or watch the actual interview or not? Simple question.


http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/9469767/kobe-bryant-believes-los-angeles-lakers-extension-no-problem

Another site saying the same thing even has his quote :twoguns:


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

You still haven't answered my question.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Kobe Bryant - Not taking any pay cut at all*

edit - oops


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe Bryant - Not taking any pay cut at all*

As I posted in the other thread, did you listen to or watch the interview or are you just reading the text? Huge difference. You guys need to know what you're talking about before just posting shit.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

I'm sure that's easy to say now but let him go through another season even worse than last year's, he's going to shave a lot off that 30. It surely won't be like the minimum or some shit, but I could see him cutting that 30 in half


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Basel said:


> You still haven't answered my question.


the quote has answered your question


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

The stupidity on these forums is pretty incredible sometimes.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

You can see how the media is working overtime to get somebody to come to LA, lmao


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Kobe Bryant - Not taking any pay cut at all*



Basel said:


> As I posted in the other thread, did you listen to or watch the interview or are you just reading the text? Huge difference. You guys need to know what you're talking about before just posting shit.


I dont see how its any different to what was quoted. Just because he throws in some laughs and smiles? 

http://youtu.be/65ICQCfvv70?t=2m37s


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

All the quote said is that he would begin negotiations from the standpoint of not taking a paycut like any true businessman would do. That certainly doesn't mean he won't ACCEPT a paycut if that's what the Lakers are offering.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

Yes. All he's saying is he's not going to go in suggesting a pay cut because that makes no sense. That doesn't mean he won't take a pay cut. It's almost like he was saying it in jest, for lack of a better word. There will be negotiations and I think Kobe will take a pay cut, but how much, I have no idea.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Dre said:


> I'm sure that's easy to say now but let him go through another season even worse than last year's, he's going to shave a lot off that 30. It surely won't be like the minimum or some shit, but I could see him cutting that 30 in half


...which would be the max. He can't get anywhere near 30 with this CBA.

The talk of him taking the minimum was asinine, but even a substantial cut is a stretch. HOFers taking paycuts to help teams build around them is so rare. Just because others have done it recently doesn't mean Kobe should be made to feel like a greedy asshole for not doing it.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Kobe Bryant - Not taking any pay cut at all*



OneBadLT123 said:


> I dont see how its any different to what was quoted. Just because he throws in some laughs and smiles?
> 
> http://youtu.be/65ICQCfvv70?t=2m37s


What else does he want? It's in black and white. Besides Laker fan's will give Kobe all the credit for winning even though Gasol had more impact on the Lakers winning those titles, and they always fail to be critical of him when he's flat out wrong.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> All the quote said is that he would begin negotiations from the standpoint of not taking a paycut like any true businessman would do. That certainly doesn't mean he won't ACCEPT a paycut if that's what the Lakers are offering.


Bingo.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Jace said:


> ...which would be the max. He can't get anywhere near 30 with this CBA.
> 
> The talk of him taking the minimum was asinine, but even a substantial cut is a stretch. HOFers taking paycuts to help teams build around them is so rare. Just because others have done it recently doesn't mean *Kobe should be made to feel like a greedy asshole for not doing it*.


Sorry, but thats an asshole move not taking the cut. If he makes more than 10 million he would be hurting the franchise more than helping


----------



## Dre

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Jace said:


> ...which would be the max. He can't get anywhere near 30 with this CBA.
> 
> The talk of him taking the minimum was asinine, but even a substantial cut is a stretch. HOFers taking paycuts to help teams build around them is so rare. Just because others have done it recently doesn't mean Kobe should be made to feel like a greedy asshole for not doing it.


Isn't his deal grandfathered from the last CBA though?


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

Huge semantic misconstruction.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Dre said:


> Isn't his deal grandfathered from the last CBA though?


Yes, his current deal. NBA contracts can't be restructured. This is all about when it expires after next season, after which he'll have to negotiate under the current terms.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

So instead of keeping his 30 million dollar contract, he'll have to go for the then max deal available. Which would turn end up being almost a 40-50% cut in itself. I guess in some roundabout forceful way, he is taking a pay cut. 

Dude's gonna ask for max money, then probably go from there. Lets not act like he's going to take 10 mil per or less here. We all know what he's going for.


----------



## Bubbles

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> All the quote said is that he would begin negotiations from the standpoint of not taking a paycut like any true businessman would do. That certainly doesn't mean he won't ACCEPT a paycut if that's what the Lakers are offering.


This.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

on top of which he characterized the stance as the attitude you have to have when entering a negotiation after prefatory statements about how athletes don't like to have those kind of conversations publicly

which I believe is why basel was asking the question about whether some of us had actually listened to statement in full

that said I'm not sure what to make of this but it's not encouraging


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Pablo5 said:


> the quote has answered your question





Pablo5 said:


> Besides Laker fan's will give Kobe all the credit for winning even though Gasol had more impact on the Lakers winning those titles, and they always fail to be critical of him when he's flat out wrong.


Good lord.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Jace said:


> Yes, his current deal. NBA contracts can't be restructured. This is all about when it expires after next season, after which he'll have to negotiate under the current terms.


Oh..

I figure hypothetically if he and the Lakers agreed to it they could extend this current contract and he could start from 30M since it was a contract/relationship that started before the current CBA was ratified


----------



## 27dresses

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

If the Kobe quote is true, he may find himself becoming a FA in the '14 offseason


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

The way it read to me was you can't go into a negotiation saying ya I'll take less. That doesn't work. He still has to look out for himself. It's still a negotiation, he didn't say he wouldn't take a pay cut he just said I'm not going to sit here and say I'll take a massive paycut before I even start negotiating.

Him saying "I'm going to get as much as I possibly can" could easily be looked at as I'm going to get as much as I can while still helping us be competitive.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Kobe Bryant - Not taking any pay cut at all*



Basel said:


> As I posted in the other thread, did you listen to or watch the interview or are you just reading the text? Huge difference. You guys need to know what you're talking about before just posting shit.


If this was about another player you'd not only not be throwing a fit, you'd probably be commenting with your own speculation.

In short, shut up.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

He said he's going to try to get as much as he can. So any Laker fan saying "Well, he said that, but maybe he'll accept a pay cut if......" Shut up. Kobe isn't taking a huge pay cut, like I said he wouldn't. Nor is Pau, like I said he wouldn't. And Dwight isn't staying for the night life, like I said he wouldn't.

Quit being so delusional. And for the love of god quit having admins throw kicking and screaming hissy fits when someon talks realistically about the Lakers. It makes the whole forum look like a joke.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

Kobe selfish???

Nahhhh can't be.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

Selfish for not taking a huge pay cut on a non contender?

Don't post again in this thread. You're a waste of time and space.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Good lord.


See Lakers pre Gasol. Tell me what was your outcome.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



R-Star said:


> Selfish for not taking a huge pay cut on a non contender?
> 
> Don't post again in this thread. You're a waste of time and space.


Here's the point I'm tryin to make. Everyone knows he won't make near the 30 million he's making now, but with the new cap limits set to the 58m range his contract will become a problem if he doesn't take a healthy pay cut.


----------



## ElBresko

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

Kobe has said in the past that he'd take a pay cut if the situation called for it. If Carmelo wanted to go to the Lakers I believe Kobe would take a cut to allow the salaries to fit.


----------



## Jace

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

Kobe's going to take a pay cut to let Carmelo come get the max and be the 1st option? Don't see it. Nor LeBron.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



ElBresko said:


> Kobe has said in the past that he'd take a pay cut if the situation called for it. If Carmelo wanted to go to the Lakers I believe Kobe would take a cut to allow the salaries to fit.


Yea, but he just said he wouldn't. He verbatim said he'd try to negotiate as much as he possibly could.


----------



## ElBresko

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



R-Star said:


> Yea, but he just said he wouldn't. He verbatim said he'd try to negotiate as much as he possibly could.


IMO he's just posturing, he's still got a year remaining on his contract, it wouldn't make good business sense for him to agree that he'd take the vets minimum or whatever the interviewer asked about. Early negotiation tactics, I can see him taking 12m per season if they bring the right kind of talent in.

If they continue to surround him with second rate talent then he'd be stupid to take a pay decrease. (I realise in saying this that this will be the first season in quite a while that the Lakers haven't had a good looking roster.) 

I don't know when Kobe is coming back from injury but I don't think he's the sort of player that would try to tank to get a good rookie.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



R-Star said:


> Selfish for not taking a huge pay cut on a non contender?
> 
> Don't post again in this thread. You're a waste of time and space.


I see that flood has messed with your membranes. 



And I don't mean the one on this board.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

We shouldn't expect players to take paycuts. This is their job afterall. When you take a huge paycut at your job, you can talk. You're not a millionaire so it's different, you say? Somewhere some homeless dude is saying the same thing about your spoiled ass. Be realistic. 

I guess the real question is how much is Kobe going to be worth come next summer? If he hadn't got hurt, he would probably still be worth the max on a short term 2 year type deal by then. Now? I don't know. If Kobe has a stellar return, sure. But most players coming back from that injury have sloppy inconsistent returns and just like Kobe shouldn't have to take a pay cut out of loyalty to the organization, the organization shouldn't give him more money than he is worth just because of his contributions to the organization. 

I guess I'm just really skeptical about how he recovers from this injury. Also the thing that worries me is that Kobe's spirit almost works against him on this type of injury, because patience is key and you know Kobe is going to try to give it a run the very first time he feels even slightly capable. That could spell bad news. 

It will be interesting to follow, that's for sure.


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

Nobody should ever blame another person, no matter how rich or poor, for making as much money as they can in their career. Kobe wanting as much money as he can get is not selfish. I find that the majority of people who criticize others for being ''greedy'' in these situations don't have a career or a family to support. 

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Pablo5 said:


> See Lakers pre Gasol. Tell me what was your outcome.


How the Lakers played without Gasol previously has nothing to do with how they played in the finals. And since we're going by that logic, see Lakers during finals and tell me what was your outcome.

And not to mention, Gasol wasn't the only reason the Lakers got better as a team. First off Kwame Brown being gone was a huge plus, Andrew Bynum continued to get better (and having two 7 footers, one of whom has good enough mid range skills to add a little spacing on the floor is always a plus). Gasol had a big impact in LA when he joined but he most certainly did not have the biggest impact for the Lakers in the two finals that they won. But he did play horrible in the finals series they lost.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

If Kobe was a true winner, he would take the paycut and try to win. 

But as it always goes, it's Kobe first team second.


----------



## Mrs. Thang

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

Good for him. I actually admire that about Kobe. He wants to be the best player, make the most money, and win the most championships. He has a lot of faults, but at least he has pride and isn't going to bandwagon his way to his goals on the backs of other players.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



doctordrizzay said:


> If Kobe was a true winner, he would take the paycut and try to win.
> 
> But as it always goes, it's Kobe first team second.


He's won five rings without having to take a pay cut before. Does that mean he still isn't a true winner?


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Sir Patchwork said:


> We shouldn't expect players to take paycuts. This is their job afterall. When you take a huge paycut at your job, you can talk. You're not a millionaire so it's different, you say? Somewhere some homeless dude is saying the same thing about your spoiled ass. Be realistic.
> 
> I guess the real question is how much is Kobe going to be worth come next summer? If he hadn't got hurt, he would probably still be worth the max on a short term 2 year type deal by then. Now? I don't know. If Kobe has a stellar return, sure. But most players coming back from that injury have sloppy inconsistent returns and just like Kobe shouldn't have to take a pay cut out of loyalty to the organization, the organization shouldn't give him more money than he is worth just because of his contributions to the organization.
> 
> I guess I'm just really skeptical about how he recovers from this injury. Also the thing that worries me is that Kobe's spirit almost works against him on this type of injury, because patience is key and you know Kobe is going to try to give it a run the very first time he feels even slightly capable. That could spell bad news.
> 
> It will be interesting to follow, that's for sure.


I've gotten in tons of arguments with people bitching about players trying to get more money. The scale is different but it's not different then anyone else going for a raise.

And You make a good point about teams overpaying players as a thank you. I don't see Ginobli getting huge money because of the work he did earlier in his career. 


This really is a non-topic. And I'm not even a Kobe fan.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



R-Star said:


> Yea, but he just said he wouldn't. He verbatim said he'd try to negotiate as much as he possibly could.


Kobe says he won't, then lets say the Lakers say they won't. What does that leave Kobe? Sign elsewhere for less?

This is kind of foolish to be discussing right now anyways, Lakers have a lot more things to worry about before they get to resigning Kobe.

BTW, I think we should institute a policy where people get banned or suspended for saying negative things about the Lakers.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Sir Patchwork said:


> We shouldn't expect players to take paycuts. This is their job afterall. When you take a huge paycut at your job, you can talk. You're not a millionaire so it's different, you say? Somewhere some homeless dude is saying the same thing about your spoiled ass. Be realistic.
> 
> I guess the real question is how much is Kobe going to be worth come next summer? If he hadn't got hurt, he would probably still be worth the max on a short term 2 year type deal by then. Now? I don't know. If Kobe has a stellar return, sure. But most players coming back from that injury have sloppy inconsistent returns and just like Kobe shouldn't have to take a pay cut out of loyalty to the organization, the organization shouldn't give him more money than he is worth just because of his contributions to the organization.
> 
> I guess I'm just really skeptical about how he recovers from this injury. Also the thing that worries me is that Kobe's spirit almost works against him on this type of injury, because patience is key and you know Kobe is going to try to give it a run the very first time he feels even slightly capable. That could spell bad news.
> 
> It will be interesting to follow, that's for sure.


I make a little over $68 k a year (gross). I'm considering a job that pays $55 k. That job is in a field that I'm very passionate about. 

Can I talk?


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Basel said:


> He's won five rings without having to take a pay cut before. Does that mean he still isn't a true winner?


Driving Shaq and Dwight out of town because of your own ego doesn't scream Winner. It's his way or the highway. 

If Kobe played a D-Wade type role and focused on efficiency along side Shaq instead of throwing up terrible shots all the time he could be an all-time great and had more rings. He only has 1 MVP and 2 Finals MVP's in his career he barely has any individual awards.

It's like how Derrick Fisher has 5 rings, Robert Horry has 7 etc. Kobe falls more into their catagory instead of the Lebron, Jordan, Magic Johnson catagory because he is seriously slacking in MVP's and Final MVP's.

Yes he's got the team awards, but individually Kobe isn't an all-time great. He's a product of Phil Jackson system and he can't do it without him.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



doctordrizzay said:


> If Kobe played a D-Wade type role and focused on efficiency along side Shaq instead of throwing up terrible shots all the time he could be an all-time great and had more rings.


That's not why or how the Lakers lost when they had Shaq and Kobe. Yes Kobe played terribly against the Pistons in 2004 but the entire Lakers team besides Shaq played terribly in that series. You win these games by playing as a team. Putting the blame for losing to the Spurs in 2003 and to the Pistons in 2004 on Kobe is just stupid. And they both had disagreements about each other, you can't put the entire blame on Kobe, even if he did and still does have some growing up to do.

The rest of your post is too stupid to even bother with.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

Why is anyone replying and posting with the doctor?

It's an honest question. What is wrong with you idiots? Are you expecting good discussion from arguing with him?


----------



## 27dresses

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Jamel Irief said:


> I make a little over $68 k a year (gross). I'm considering a job that pays $55 k. That job is in a field that I'm very passionate about.
> 
> Can I talk?


Well, it seems you can type


----------



## NK1990

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

:meditate:


Pablo5 said:


> See Lakers pre Gasol. Tell me what was your outcome.


Also I'm pretty sure the lakers having 14 championships pre gasol is a pretty darn good outcome lol.


----------



## NK1990

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



doctordrizzay said:


> Driving Shaq and Dwight out of town because of your own ego doesn't scream Winner. It's his way or the highway.
> 
> If Kobe played a D-Wade type role and focused on efficiency along side Shaq instead of throwing up terrible shots all the time he could be an all-time great and had more rings. He only has 1 MVP and 2 Finals MVP's in his career he barely has any individual awards.
> 
> It's like how Derrick Fisher has 5 rings, Robert Horry has 7 etc. Kobe falls more into their catagory instead of the Lebron, Jordan, Magic Johnson catagory because he is seriously slacking in MVP's and Final MVP's.
> 
> Yes he's got the team awards, but individually Kobe isn't an all-time great. He's a product of Phil Jackson system and he can't do it without him.


:meditate:


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



R-Star said:


> Why is anyone replying and posting with the doctor?
> 
> It's an honest question. What is wrong with you idiots? Are you expecting good discussion from arguing with him?


I've been wandering about that myself...


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

Irving likes anyone that will debate with him. Emonk does it because he "gets bored."

Those two did the same thing with JBKB.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*

now be fair I don't really engage drippy in serious attempts at conversation anymore I just snipe occasionally


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Kobe not taking pay cut for Lakers*



Jamel Irief said:


> Irving likes anyone that will debate with him. Emonk does it because he "gets bored."
> 
> Those two did the same thing with JBKB.


Actually I also do it with Drizzay because I'm bored. I did it with JBKB because half the time I was just trolling him.


----------



## Larry Legend

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

He still isn`t leader and winner and clutcher enough as for that.
Bird in one of the greatest on those things. 
Bird is also better shooter from long distance and from the line & better rebounder.
Lebron is also a great passer and have till now higher average (Bird have the highest assists average for retired forward), and better in personal defense and steals.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Greatest SF of all time ? Greatest player of all time


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Larry Legend said:


> He still isn`t leader and winner and clutcher enough as for that.
> Bird in one of the greatest on those things.
> Bird is also better shooter from long distance and from the line & better rebounder.
> Lebron is also a great passer and have till now higher average (Bird have the highest assists average for retired forward), and better in personal defense and steals.


LeBron is Goat just get over it. Your whiteboy can't cut it


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/lebron-james-vs-larry-bird-after-10-years-league-1943269/


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Deke said:


> using the argument of pace will always favor modern generations man. its a flawed *** argument. it cant be a valid argument if EVERY WAY you look at it favors modern generations....


sure it can if what you are arguing about is based on such pace influenced factors as touches or opportunities - it's math, math doesn't 'favor' things

another way to think about what you're trying to say here is that your expressed view point sounds a lot like what it looks like from the vantage of someone who is on the wrong side of an argument (i.e. "if all the facts and math and science etc all say the opposite of what Im trying to prove then that stuff is stupid!"- you seem to be drawing the wrong conclusion from the facts as stated)


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Has to be Lebron, Larry never impacted the game like Lebron does and had by far the better teammates.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Larry never impacted the game Lebron does? How so?


----------



## NK1990

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

As far as the greatest Small Forward I have ever SEEN then yes Lebron James, but seriously now...Larry Legend gets the nod over LeBron. LeBron could definitely over throw Larry Legend but as of right now Larry Bird has Lebron.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



doctordrizzay said:


> Has to be Lebron, Larry never impacted the game like Lebron does and had by far the better teammates.


BY FAR the better teammates? You will say anything just to try to make him look good won't you?


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



doctordrizzay said:


> Has to be Lebron, Larry never impacted the game like Lebron does and had by far the better teammates.


so do you have his posters on the bedroom walls AND mounted over your bed? I'm guessing one of your side tables functions as your J-Off station (tissues and lotion)? do you dream about his breath on the back of your neck? I bet you do


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



l0st1 said:


> Larry never impacted the game Lebron does? How so?


he doesn't know and he's busy 'looking at posters' at the moment anyway


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Thread was created way too early, but it's a legitimate question to ask now.


----------



## billyhoyle

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

(batman voice) not yet


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

I got Larry


----------



## 23isback

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



XxIrvingxX said:


> BY FAR the better teammates? You will say anything just to try to make him look good won't you?


McHale, Parish, and DJ > Wade (Post 09-10) and Bosh by FAR. I don't think its even worth mentioning the scrubs Lebron had to carry in Cleveland.


----------



## 23isback

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Regarding the strong bump though, I would have to say Lebron is a lot closer to the top than he was in 2008. He's developed into an absolute beast and a first-ballot HOFer for sure. 4 regular season MVPs, Back-to-back Finals MVPs, and the first player to win the gold medal, regular season MVP and Finals MVP since Michael Jordan. Bird is Top 5 all-time, arguably Top 3. Lebron still comes a little short in terms of credentials for that kind of status, but I think he will break through to the top of the list within the next 5 years. He has improved every single year and I see no reason to think that he will slow down any time soon.


----------



## ChrisWoj

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



23isback said:


> Regarding the strong bump though, I would have to say Lebron is a lot closer to the top than he was in 2008. He's developed into an absolute beast and a first-ballot HOFer for sure. 4 regular season MVPs, Back-to-back Finals MVPs, and the first player to win the gold medal, regular season MVP and Finals MVP since Michael Jordan. Bird is Top 5 all-time, arguably Top 3. Lebron still comes a little short in terms of credentials for that kind of status, but I think he will break through to the top of the list within the next 5 years. He has improved every single year and I see no reason to think that he will slow down any time soon.


I only quibble with your very last point. Lebron James is going to slow down, and soon. I predict he's done improving. He's finished. There's no more improvement left - on the whole. He may manage to offset a slipping athleticism here with an added bit of range there, but he will never be more efficient than he was last season. He could maintain that level by offsetting some losses with other improvements, but he's slowing down. He's done being *better* than he was the season before.


----------



## 23isback

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



ChrisWoj said:


> I only quibble with your very last point. Lebron James is going to slow down, and soon. I predict he's done improving. He's finished. There's no more improvement left - on the whole. He may manage to offset a slipping athleticism here with an added bit of range there, but he will never be more efficient than he was last season. He could maintain that level by offsetting some losses with other improvements, but he's slowing down. He's done being *better* than he was the season before.


Agreed. I don't think it's even fair to expect that of him. I was just saying we won't suddenly see a huge drop in terms of his dominance.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

He'll be at the top for a while I'm sure. When he starts to lose his explosiveness and quickness, he'll slide over to the 4 I'd assume.


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Was just going to make that point. When he begins to lose explosiveness and athleticism, his game will transition more into the post than it already has. He's strong and obviously skilled around the basket, his game will age just fine. Playing the 4 full-time won't be a problem for LeBron offensively or defensively.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



23isback said:


> McHale, Parish, and DJ > Wade (Post 09-10) and Bosh by FAR. I don't think its even worth mentioning the scrubs Lebron had to carry in Cleveland.


and relative to their competition? I don't see Dr J's 76ers or the Bad Boys lurking in the weeds right now do you?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



23isback said:


> McHale, Parish, and DJ > Wade (Post 09-10) and Bosh by FAR. I don't think its even worth mentioning the scrubs Lebron had to carry in Cleveland.


I'm not saying bird didn't have better teammates, but BY FAR is a bit of a stretch, considering the competition bird had to go up against.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

The NBA was extremely top heavy until the last couple of decades. It was easy for the best teams to just buy players from the worst teams, who were always on the edge of financial ruin. The biggest markets and the better run franchises were at a substantial advantage over the other teams and the result was a league of haves and have-nots. So you had a lot of perpetually stacked teams and a lot of teams that were consistently dismal.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

and that's just the way we liked it


----------



## 23isback

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> and relative to their competition? I don't see Dr J's 76ers or the Bad Boys lurking in the weeds right now do you?


What? 



XxIrvingxX said:


> I'm not saying bird didn't have better teammates, but BY FAR is a bit of a stretch, considering the competition bird had to go up against.


Playing with 3 other hall of famers versus playing with just 1 is a pretty significant difference. Since when did relative competition become a factor in gauging who had better teammates?


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



23isback said:


> What.


ok I'll go slow - yes Bird's teams were stacked but so were his opponents- Lebron might not have as much help but he also doesn't have to get past the bad boys and show time to get his rings either - we're talking degree of difficulty here

there were more hall of famers on the Bad Boy Pistons(4) than there are serious future candidates to the hall on the teams that Lebron faced in all 3 of last years Eastern Conference play-off series combined (none, Rose doesn't count since he was wearing a suit)

so the fact that he has at least one other future hall of famer playing somewhere near his prime in Wade when he's facing an entire conference full of trash is at least equivalent in relative terms


----------



## buduan

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> ok I'll go slow - yes Bird's teams were stacked but so were his opponents- Lebron might not have as much help but he also doesn't have to get past the bad boys and show time to get his rings either - we're talking degree of difficulty here
> 
> there were more hall of famers on the Bad Boy Pistons(4) than there are serious future candidates to the hall on the teams that Lebron faced in all 3 of last years Eastern Conference play-off series combined (none, Rose doesn't count since he was wearing a suit)


Don't forget those Philly and Buck teams. They'd be dynasties in today's NBA.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

of course


----------



## 23isback

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> ok I'll go slow - yes Bird's teams were stacked but so were his opponents- Lebron might not have as much help but he also doesn't have to get past the bad boys and show time to get his rings either - we're talking degree of difficulty here
> 
> there were more hall of famers on the Bad Boy Pistons(4) than there are serious future candidates to the hall on the teams that Lebron faced in all 3 of last years Eastern Conference play-off series combined (none, Rose doesn't count since he was wearing a suit)
> 
> so the fact that he has at least one other future hall of famer playing somewhere near his prime in Wade when he's facing an entire conference full of trash is at least equivalent in relative terms


Like you said, Larry Bird needed a lot of help to get past the Bad Boy Pistons and he had it. Place any team Lebron has played with into that era and they wouldn't even be competitive, especially considering their severe lack of interior presence and rebounding. Disregarding era, I think it would be a safe bet to say that Bird's Celtics vs Lebron's Cavs or Heat would win in a 7-game series, so your point is moot.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

moot? hardly - you want to hold Larry up for having great teammates and my point is that he needed them since he played at a time when the top teams were all loaded - his teammates don't mitigate his success when compared to a similar resume against inferior opponents

the real question is something much more like if you could swap Bird and Lebron and would their respective team's experience the same level of success as they did in real life


----------



## 23isback

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> moot? hardly - you want to hold Larry up for having great teammates and my point is that he needed them since he played at a time when the top teams were all loaded - his teammates don't mitigate his success when compared to a similar resume against inferior opponents
> 
> the real question is something much more like if you could swap Bird and Lebron and would their respective team's experience the same level of success as they did in real life


...So all things considered: McHale, Parish, and DJ = Wade and Bosh because Bird needed them. Again, what? How did we even get here? I never used the fact that Bird had better teammates as a knock against him. I don't get why you are disagreeing with me on the fact that Bird's teammates were simply better players than the combination of a rapidly aging Wade and the ever flimsy Boshtrich. :whoknows:


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Lebron Already has a better resume than Larry.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



23isback said:


> ...So all things considered: McHale, Parish, and DJ = Wade and Bosh because Bird needed them. Again, what?



are you being dumb on purpose?



> How did we even get here? I never used the fact that Bird had better teammates as a knock against him. I don't get why you are disagreeing with me on the fact that Bird's teammates were simply better players than the combination of a rapidly aging Wade and the ever flimsy Boshtrich. :whoknows:


of course they were better but someone in this thread did in fact bring it up as a knock against Bird - so yes they were better but also he and his team had to face much better teams so in relative terms the support is about the same

that is the argument for whoever originally brought it up - your 'what' post is maybe how you got involved in the conversation in case you've lost the thread


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



doctordrizzay said:


> Lebron Already has a better resume than Larry.


false - also I hope you wiped your hands before using the keyboard - the very thought of which disgusts me


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> false - also I hope you wiped your hands before using the keyboard - the very thought of which disgusts me


4 MVPs + 2 Final MVPs >>> 3 MVPs + 2 Final MVPs


----------



## 23isback

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> are you being dumb on purpose?


Is it fun being condescending?



e-monk said:


> *of course they were better*



and that's literally all I've said.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



23isback said:


> Is it fun being condescending?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and that's literally all I've said.


it is fun AND

do you get my point or are you too dumb to understand? you asked 'what?' after all and I just want to make sure it sinks in - k?


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



doctordrizzay said:


> 4 MVPs + 2 Final MVPs >>> 3 MVPs + 2 Final MVPs


did you wipe your hands? god please say yes


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



doctordrizzay said:


> 4 MVPs + 2 Final MVPs >>> 3 MVPs + 2 Final MVPs


MVPS ... LMFAO dude please MVPS are a useless measure of a players greatness in their full body of work. It's just a nice ribbon to tie off their accomplishments anymore. Especially when you consider how bad the media has done awarding the MVP trophy over uh ... lets say the last 25 years or so.


----------



## 23isback

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> it is fun AND
> 
> do you get my point or are you too dumb to understand? you asked 'what?' after all and I just want to make sure it sinks in - k?


I said what because I saw no reason for you to respond to me in the first place. Your grumpy basketball know-it-all charade is really tiring btw. Do you have nothing better to do than prove to this board that you know more about basketball than anyone else?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



77AJ said:


> MVPS ... LMFAO dude please MVPS are a useless measure of a players greatness in their full body of work. It's just a nice ribbon to tie off their accomplishments anymore. Especially when you consider how bad the media has done awarding the MVP trophy over uh ... lets say the last 25 years or so.


So you're saying the media is the reason why Lebron is a 4x MVP? If so, just no. Not only has Lebron clearly deserved his 4 MVP awards, he actually should have more at this point but doesn't BECAUSE of the media. It goes without saying that Lebron clearly deserved to be the MVP in 2008 and 2011, but of course those went to Kobe and Rose. 

I agree the media tends to have too much of an impact, but to say that the MVP awards are useless when talking about how great a player was is like saying that championships are useless when talking about how great a sports franchise is. Winning an MVP award is an incredible accomplishment, and you have to be a special player to have won 4 MVP awards when you've just been in your prime for about a year now.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



23isback said:


> I said what because I saw no reason for you to respond to me in the first place.


How could you not see a reason for him to respond? What e-monk said was actually a very good point that needed to be brought up if we're going to talk about how great Birds teammates were, and considering how we're trying to decide on who is the better SF here, that is, once again, a great point to mention here. 

Time for my two cents here. 

I think Lebron is the greatest SF to have ever played the game, and he could be the greatest player of all time, but I could certainly see why people would say it's Bird. But, when Lebron's career is over with, I think he will be the undisputed best SF to have ever played the game, sort of like how Jordan is the undisputed best SG or how Magic is the undisputed best PG.


----------



## 23isback

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



XxIrvingxX said:


> How could you not see a reason for him to respond? What e-monk said was actually a very good point that needed to be brought up if we're going to talk about how great Birds teammates were, and considering how we're trying to decide on who is the better SF here, that is, once again, a great point to mention here.


Except I was talking about their teammates. I even conceded Bird still ranked ahead of Lebron earlier. :banghead:


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



77AJ said:


> MVPS ... LMFAO dude please MVPS are a useless measure of a players greatness in their full body of work. *It's just a nice ribbon to tie off their accomplishments anymore*. Especially when you consider how bad the media has done awarding the MVP trophy over uh ... lets say the last 25 years or so.


Then why do you watch sports? Lemme guess championship rings are worth no more than the ones in a bubble gum machine right?

MVP's measure your greatness.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



23isback said:


> Except I was talking about their teammates. I even conceded Bird still ranked ahead of Lebron earlier. :banghead:


I know. Someone tried using the teammates argument, which was why e-monk brought it up. But you just happened to be the one he responded to.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



doctordrizzay said:


> Then why do you watch sports? Lemme guess championship rings are worth no more than the ones in a bubble gum machine right?
> 
> MVP's measure your greatness.


What I'm saying is that it's an award thats lost a lot of its luster and merit. It's not an end all to any debate. 

Do you really think Kobe should have only One MVP ? Or that Karl Malone was more worthy of Michael Jordan of the MVPs he won ? Of course not. Did Steve Nash deserve two MVPS back to back ? Come on dude. Tim Duncan has only won the MVP award 2x. Think about it, and don't use MVP's as your end all be all measurement. That was my only point. So carry on ..


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



77AJ said:


> What I'm saying is that it's an award thats lost a lot of its luster and merit. It's not an end all to any debate.
> 
> Do you really think Kobe should have only One MVP ? Or that Karl Malone was more worthy of Michael Jordan of the MVPs he won ? Of course not. Did Steve Nash deserve two MVPS back to back ? Come on dude. Tim Duncan has only won the MVP award 2x. Think about it, and don't use MVP's as your end all be all measurement. That was my only point. So carry on ..


For sure I think Malone deserved it over Jordan the second time he won it.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



77AJ said:


> Do you really think Kobe should have only One MVP ?


I think this depends entirely on what years you believe Kobe should've won the MVP awards. If those years are during the times when he was averaging an insane amount of points per game, I think that you would have a great case to argue there. But imo, when talking about most deserving, you need to take away the only MVP award Kobe has since the year he won it was during arguably one of the best seasons Lebron ever had in his career. Hell, I'd argue that was his second greatest season with the first one being the one he had this past season.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Jamel Irief said:


> For sure I think Malone deserved it over Jordan the second time he won it.


You're a funny guy. And I get that MJ didn't play in 99, however Mourning and Duncan should of won that MVP. And MJ should of won the MVP in 97. Yet both times Karl Malone won it .


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



XxIrvingxX said:


> I think this depends entirely on what years you believe Kobe should've won the MVP awards. If those years are during the times when he was averaging an insane amount of points per game, I think that you would have a great case to argue there. But imo, when talking about most deserving, you need to take away the only MVP award Kobe has since the year he won it was during arguably one of the best seasons Lebron ever had in his career. Hell, I'd argue that was his second greatest season with the first one being the one he had this past season.


The year I've always maintained Kobe should of won the MVP is in 2006.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

I am not sure that Bird was ever really the best player in the NBA, whereas Lebron has been the unquestionably the best player in the NBA for about 7 years. I really do not understand why we are talking about team mates either.

If you wanted to you could use PER to make a really strong argument that Lebron is a clearly better player, because Lebron at the age of 28 has led the league in PER for six straight years. He has clearly been the best player in the NBA for that period of time. Bird did that twice in his career, because other players were more productive than he was statistically. Bird was never considered to be the best player in the league and since Lebron is a clearly superior defensive player PER makes an extremely compelling argument that he has already surpassed Bird.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



77AJ said:


> You're a funny guy. And I get that MJ didn't play in 99, however Mourning and Duncan should of won that MVP. And MJ should of won the MVP in 97. Yet both times Karl Malone won it .


Malone definitely deserved the MVP award the first time he won it. He was almost averaging as many points as Jordan was while having a much better FG%, was .01 away from averaging a double double that year, and (here's a fun fact) he averaged 4.5 assists that year, more than Jordan's 4.3. Malone not only helped lead his team to a 64 win season that year, he also once again made the all NBA first time AND made the all defensive first team.

People like to bring up that season because it was against Michael Jordan, but when you look past that and look at the seasons the two had and compare, it would be dumb to say that Malone didn't deserve the MVP award that season. 



77AJ said:


> The year I've always maintained Kobe should of won the MVP is in 2006.


Was that the year he was averaging 35 points per game? Or was that the 31 points per game campaign?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Malone definitely deserved the MVP award the first time he won it. He was almost averaging as many points as Jordan was while having a much better FG%, was .01 away from averaging a double double that year, and (here's a fun fact) he averaged 4.5 assists that year, more than Jordan's 4.3. Malone not only helped lead his team to a 64 win season that year, he also once again made the all NBA first time AND made the all defensive first team.
> 
> People like to bring up that season because it was against Michael Jordan, but when you look past that and look at the seasons the two had and compare, it would be dumb to say that Malone didn't deserve the MVP award that season.
> 
> 
> 
> Was that the year he was averaging 35 points per game? Or was that the 31 points per game campaign?


The Malone MVP over Jordan is only one that many people disagree over. Hence the MVP voting being so damn close I believe they were spaced out by 30 votes only ... 

Go back and Look at the years 87, 89, and 90 when Jordan didn't win the MVP. Talk about beast mode Jordan had on the league. Yet never won an MVP for his efforts. 

2006 was the year Kobe average 35 points per game. 

Jordan, Kobe, and Duncan IMO all should have more MVPS. It's why I don't consider the MVP award a major significant measure of the greatest players.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



77AJ said:


> The Malone MVP over Jordan is only one that many people disagree over. Hence the MVP voting being so damn close I believe they were spaced out by 30 votes only ...
> 
> Go back and Look at the years 87, 89, and 90 when Jordan didn't win the MVP. Talk about beast mode Jordan had on the league. Yet never won an MVP for his efforts.
> 
> *2006 was the year Kobe average 35 points per game. *
> 
> Jordan, Kobe, and Duncan IMO all should have more MVPS. It's why I don't consider the MVP award a major significant measure of the greatest players.


So your argument that Kobe should have been MVP in 2006 was because he scored 35 point per game? You do realize that people consider TEAM success for MVP votes. In which Lakers had one of the worst seasons he has been apart of.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



doctordrizzay said:


> So your argument that Kobe should have been MVP in 2006 was because he scored 35 point per game? You do realize that people consider TEAM success for MVP votes. In which Lakers had one of the worst seasons he has been apart of.


What I'm saying is that Kobe had one of the most remarkable seasons any individual player has ever had, and he took one of the worst teams ever into the playoffs as a one man wrecking machine. 

But I get it you like the Steve Nash pick, and those dynamic phoenix suns teams. Sorry MVP in my book should be rewarded to the best player in the game each year as an individual award, no barring on the team. As team awards are championships, and the individual prestige from those championships is the Finals MVP. 

And at this point Finals MVPs > Regular Season MVPS.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



77AJ said:


> What I'm saying is that Kobe had one of the most remarkable seasons any individual player has ever had, and he took one of the worst teams ever into the playoffs as a one man wrecking machine.
> 
> But I get it you like the Steve Nash pick, and those dynamic phoenix suns teams. Sorry MVP in my book should be rewarded to the best player in the game each year as an individual award, no barring on the team. As team awards are championships, and the individual prestige from those championships is the Finals MVP.
> 
> And at this point Finals MVPs > Regular Season MVPS.


Man you're either you're hating or you're just dumb ass hell. Nash made everyone around better while leading his team to the securing the #2 seed. Being a ball hog isn't what represent a leagues MVP.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Pablo5 said:


> Man you're either you're hating or you're just dumb ass hell. Nash made everyone around better while leading his team to the securing the #2 seed. Being a ball hog isn't what represent a leagues MVP.


Can anyone name when Bird has ever been the best player in the NBA during his career? Bron has clearly been the best player in the NBA for the last 7 seasons


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

Bird was league MVP 3 times (at a time when the league had players with names like Magic and Jordan)


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



Pablo5 said:


> Man you're either you're hating or you're just dumb ass hell. Nash made everyone around better while leading his team to the securing the #2 seed. Being a ball hog isn't what represent a leagues MVP.


AJ is simple minded, so don't mind him. 

He totally disregards efficiency when it comes to basketball, he one of those tards that look at points and that's it.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



> After Bird made four straight baskets with Dennis Rodman guarding him, he ran over to Chuck Daly and asked "who's guarding me, Chuck? Is anyone guarding me? You better get someone on me or I'm gonna go for 60." Then he'd continue the banter the next time he got the ball with Rodman inches away.
> 
> "I started talking a little trash to him," Horace Grant recalled, when the Celtics were the defending champions. "I'm saying, 'You're not going to score. You're not getting this basket. I remember him then telling me exactly what he was going to do to me. He says he's going to fake me left and then he's going to shoot a right-hand hook over me. And then he goes and does it and scores."
> 
> On a West Coast trip in 1986, Bird told the entire Dallas Mavericks bench that after the time out, Ainge would inbounds the pass to DJ, who would hit Bird in the corner where Bird would step back and take a three. "So you got that?" Bird queried the bench. "I'm gonna stand right here. I'm not going to move. They'll pass me the ball, and the next sound you hear will be the ball hitting the bottom of the net." And that's exactly what happened. Bird winked at the Mavericks before heading back down to the other end of the court.
> 
> When the Indiana Pacers put rookie George McCloud on Bird in the closing minutes of a game, Bird yelled over to the Pacers bench, "Hey, I know you guys are desperate, but can't you find someone who at least has a prayer?"
> 
> After Craig Hodges won the NBA All-Star Game Three-Point contest in Bird's absence, Hodges was asked if the victory was tainted because Bird hadn't participated. "He knows where he can find me," was Hodges retort. Told of Hodges' challenge, Bird replied, "Yeah, at the end of the Bulls bench."
> 
> During the three-point shooting contest on All-Star Weekend 1986, Bird entered the locker room, looked around for a while without saying a word, when he finally spoke he said, "I want all of you to know I am winning this thing. I'm just looking around to see who's gonna finish up second." He won the shooting contest.
> 
> During one game on Christmas Day against the Indiana Pacers, before the game Bird told Chuck Person that he had a Christmas present waiting for him. During the game, when Person was on the bench, Bird shot a three-pointer on the baseline right in front of Person. Immediately after releasing the ball, Bird said to Person, "Merry ****in' Christmas!", and then the shot went in. This was no doubt inspired by Person (nicknamed the "Rifleman") stating prior to the game that "The Rifleman is Coming, and He's Going Bird Hunting."
> 
> Reggie Miller recalled his encounter with Larry Bird's legendary trash talking ability in his book "I Love Being The Enemy". Reggie tried to disrupt Larry's concentration when he was shooting free throws late in a game. Larry glared at him, made the first free throw and said, "Rook, I am the best ****ing shooter in the league. In the league, understand? And you're up here trying to ****ing tell me something?" Then Larry buried the second free throw


as soon as Lebron grows a pair this big and wants to flat kill people like this he'll be the best because that's what it takes


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



77AJ said:


> What I'm saying is that *Kobe had one of the most remarkable seasons any individual player has ever had, and he took one of the worst teams ever into the playoffs as a one man wrecking machine.*
> 
> But I get it you like the Steve Nash pick, and those dynamic phoenix suns teams. Sorry MVP in my book should be rewarded to the best player in the game each year as an individual award, no barring on the team. As team awards are championships, and the individual prestige from those championships is the Finals MVP.
> 
> And at this point Finals MVPs > Regular Season MVPS.


1. Kobe in 2006 quit on his team, against the REAL MVP that year.






2. Lebron carried the worst supporting crew off all-time for 7 straight years. Don't get it twisted.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> as soon as Lebron grows a pair this big and wants to flat kill people like this he'll be the best because that's what it takes


Why should he change for your personal agenda?

Also if he said those things like bird, I would put about $100000 on you and the other women on here whine and bitch about how Lebron is an asshole. Can't win with people like you, it will always be the exact opposite of what Lebron does is what you want from him. Women tendencies.


For me personally? I like the guy who doesn't open his mouth, leaves it all on the court, doesn't say a damn word, doesn't even smile, and just stares. 




Kinda like one of the greatest playoff games ever. 











And the OT win of the pacers


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

I'm telling you the keys on your keyboard are all slimey like that because you are forgetting to wipe your hands - I have to assume that in your fantasies you're the bottom


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

and btw I love the fact that he almost choked away game 6 and kind of crapped the bed against the Mavs (that 8 pt game 4 was an all-timer for sure, hell he almost had a Darrell Walker triple double in that one) - I don't want him to change a thing


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> and btw I love the fact that he almost *choked away game 6 *and kind of crapped the bed against the Mavs (that 8 pt game 4 was an all-timer for sure, hell he almost had a Darrell Walker triple double in that one) - I don't want him to change a thing


Mama been hitting you with the dumb dumb stick?

http://nba.si.com/2013/06/19/lebron...a-finals-game-6-miami-heat-san-antonio-spurs/


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

8 whole points - maybe you should think about being the top?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> 8 whole points - *maybe you should think about being the top?*


Its pretty clear hes a power bottom.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> *8 whole points *- maybe you should think about being the top?


Oh would you look at this? Larry did that twice in 1981 Finals.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198105100HOU.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198105090HOU.html


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

NBA.com has posted a video of Kobe running in an anti-gravity machine. He is 5 months off of his surgery for a ruptured Achilles tendon. Whoever his surgeon is did a fantastic job, as well has Kobe. Is it too far fetched to see Kobe bryant back in top form 10 games into the year? I think, that Kobe will not only come back to start the season, I think he will be as good as he was during the 2010-2011 season (25 ppg, 5 rpg and 5 apg .451% shooting). Im not sure what others think. I really dont care to hear about how Lebron is better (in your opinion) or Kobe sucks. Look at it from a non-biased point of view. Is it unrealistic to see Kobe Bryant in tip-top shape come opening night? I dont think so. I think we will see him back to form as usual.


----------



## 27dresses

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Enormous amounts of weasel droppings released to the press


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

If there's ever going to be a guy to be the exception to the rule on this its going to be Kobe. 

But honestly, I think this is pretty clearly going to be the time you finally watch Kobes game decline, and in a very drastic fashion. He's beaten father time by being the hardest working, most stubborn guy in the league, but he'll be 35, but even worse going into his 18th season in the league. 

The end has to come at some point. This seems like the logical starting point to me. As I said though, I won't be surprised if he proves me wrong.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

He's going to miss alot of shots like always, choke games away like always, he's going to be the same old Kobe Bryant that we are accustom to.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



doctordrizzay said:


> He's going to miss alot of shots like always, choke games away like always, he's going to be the same old Kobe Bryant that we are accustom to.


no one really cares about your opinion, espeically myself. Kobe always chokes games and always misses shots? Ill be ignoring all of your comments thats for sure.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



R-Star said:


> If there's ever going to be a guy to be the exception to the rule on this its going to be Kobe.
> 
> But honestly, I think this is pretty clearly going to be the time you finally watch Kobes game decline, and in a very drastic fashion. He's beaten father time by being the hardest working, most stubborn guy in the league, but he'll be 35, but even worse going into his 18th season in the league.
> 
> The end has to come at some point. This seems like the logical starting point to me. As I said though, I won't be surprised if he proves me wrong.


Well said. I think he has 2 or 3 good years left, espically if la gets Melo and if Kobe can focus on being a distributor and the second scoring option, that will expand his time.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

This might be the first year that Kobe can prove to us that he is truly an All-Star worthy talent, time is ticking. But with Dwight and Metta world peace gone...Kobe only has MVP Steve Nash and All-Star Pau Gasol and Chris Kamen to work with. He doesn't have the godly help he usually has and can prove himself to finally be the best player on the Lakers in his 18th year.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> no one really cares about your opinion, espeically myself. Kobe always chokes games and always *misses shots?* Ill be ignoring all of your comments thats for sure.


Do you really have to be THAT troll?


"With his final missed FGA on Tuesday night against HOU (came with 2:27 left in the 4th quarter), Kobe Bryant missed his 15,296th career field goal attempt and passed John Havlicek for the most field goal attempts missed in NBA history if you combine regular season and postseason numbers."

http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-news-kobe-sets-nba-record-for-most-career-misses/2013/01/10/


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> no one really cares about your opinion, espeically myself. Kobe always chokes games and always misses shots? Ill be ignoring all of your comments thats for sure.


Please, just ignore his posts. 

I know its tough because hes such an idiot, but its for the best. That way we can have an actual discussion about Bryant without the thread getting derailed once again by doctorbronbron.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



doctordrizzay said:


> He's going to miss alot of shots like always, choke games away like always, he's going to be the same old Kobe Bryant that we are accustom to.


Godly help? Because howard was godly right? Howard is terrible. never liked him. Bynum wasnt dominant until LAST YEAR and hes had gasol for along time. SO since sha, what godly help has he had? The decent role players????gtfo


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Well said. I think he has 2 or 3 good years left, espically if la gets Melo and if Kobe can focus on being a distributor and the second scoring option, that will expand his time.


If LA does get a top tier scorer like Melo, I do agree that would really help Kobe in his last few years. 

If he comes back to the team they currently have now and hes healthy, he's going to go back to trying to do it all on his own and I'm not sure he still has that in him, although he was doing a damn good job of it before the injury so I could be wrong.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

I think that Kobe will retire in 2-3 years. I see no reason, IF he can let go of his ego, become a distributor, and take a pay cut if he wants #6. I think if his minutes are managed well, no more than 34 minutes per night, and Gasol gets back to form, and we sign someone good next year, we could see a small resurgence of title contention out west. San Antonio is a year older, and OKC is extremley limited in what they can do. Im a big fan of Durant and think he is the best scorer in the league, but they have no help other than Westbrook and Durant, maybe Reggie Jackson? Anyways, I expect to see Kobe back to his dominant ways come opening night.


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Kobe is going to have to change his game even more. He barely could get to the rack anymore with any sort of consistency, but guys still had to respect his ability to drive. I imagine that ability will be next to nil next season.

That being said, Kobe has always altered his game when needed, and this season will be no different. He is just going to be taking much tougher shots. 

PPG: 23.8
FG%:41
3FG%: 31%
APG: 4.5
Reb: 5.6


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



R-Star said:


> If LA does get a top tier scorer like Melo, I do agree that would really help Kobe in his last few years.
> 
> If he comes back to the team they currently have now and hes healthy, he's going to go back to trying to do it all on his own and I'm not sure he still has that in him, although he was doing a damn good job of it before the injury so I could be wrong.


the week he got hurt, he was averaging 35, 8 and 7. I guess those numbers arent dominant for doctrolebron, even though he is 35 years old.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

What I'd like to see him become is kind of a Pippen circa Portland


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Although that would be his lowest FG% of his entire career. I see him around the 43-44 area.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Lakers need to pull a Celtic move and give him a young star ala Bird/Bias (without the coke) if they want to extend his effectiveness beyond a year or two. He's still Kobe Bryant but everyone's body shuts down eventually and tearing his Achilles will probably speed that process up rapidly


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> the week he got hurt, he was averaging 35, 8 and 7. I guess those numbers arent dominant for doctrolebron, even though he is 35 years old.


And all the while Dwight was sulking, walking back on plays, and grabbing his shoulder and wincing anytime he missed a shot or let someone by, which was often.

After watching all that, its hilarious to me to see people try to make Kobe the bad guy out of what happened last year.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Hibachi! said:


> Kobe is going to have to change his game even more. He barely could get to the rack anymore with any sort of consistency, but guys still had to respect his ability to drive. I imagine that ability will be next to nil next season.
> 
> That being said, Kobe has always altered his game when needed, and this season will be no different. He is just going to be taking much tougher shots.
> 
> PPG: 23.8
> FG%:41
> 3FG%: 31%
> APG: 4.5
> Reb: 5.6


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

a)he was 2 years in the league not 8
b)his team won
c)if you run low you should try vicks medicated


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> the week he got hurt, he was averaging 35, 8 and 7. I guess those numbers arent dominant for doctrolebron, even though he is 35 years old.


not when your inefficient. stop trolling


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Kobe Bryant Dunks on Josh Smith in Glorious HD!! - YouTube
> Kobe Bryant's HUGE Facial in Brooklyn - YouTube
> Kobe Bryant Vintage Dunk Ferocious Slam on Jamal Crawford vs. Los Angeles Clippers 02/14/13 - YouTube


Wade is only two years younger than Kobe and two inches shorter than Kobe and does those dunks about 3 or 4 times a game....not season.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

you embarrass yourself when you try to use words you don't understand


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



doctordrizzay said:


> Wade is only two years younger than Kobe and stop more inches shorter than Kobe and does those dunks about 3 or 4 times a game....not season.


lies


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



R-Star said:


> And all the while Dwight was sulking, walking back on plays, and grabbing his shoulder and wincing anytime he missed a shot or let someone by, which was often.
> 
> After watching all that, its hilarious to me to see people try to make Kobe the bad guy out of what happened last year.


Dwight is a pussy. His poor shoulder. So inconsistent. and who was the guy that had to step up and do it all by himself? 
Heres a perfect example


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

See boys, this is where we ignore him. 

It will be reminiscent of that one kid in your youth you didn't like and you just tried to ignore him until he went away.

*"Guys guys! I said Kobe sucks didn't you hear me! GUYS!!! LISTEN TO MEEEEE!!!"*


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



e-monk said:


> lies


What of my simple instructions did you not understand.

Between this and you ruining that joke last week you're really letting me down.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

how many players has Nash ever yelled at on the court in front of people?


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Dwight is a pussy. His poor shoulder. So inconsistent. and who was the guy that had to step up and do it all by himself?
> Heres a perfect example
> 
> Kobe Bryant hits 3 CLUTCH three-pointers vs. Raptors (Lakers broadcast) - YouTube


For every game like this there is about 14 he chokes away.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



R-Star said:


> What of my simple instructions did you not understand.
> 
> Between this and you ruining that joke last week you're really letting me down.


I'm in a thing now where I'm trolling him which I enjoy - let me have my small pleasures


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



e-monk said:


> I'm in a thing now where I'm trolling him which I enjoy - let me have my small pleasures


Its in direct contradiction of my own schemes. 

The only reason this guy is still around is you, Mamba and AJ reply to his idiocy. 

Its time for a change. A new plan of dealing with this. Follow the leadership that is R-Star.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

I have authority issues - very much


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



doctordrizzay said:


> Wade is only two years younger than Kobe and two inches shorter than Kobe and does those dunks about 3 or 4 times a game....not season.


LMFAO! WADE HASNT BEEN ABE TO DUNK LIKE THAT 3 or $ TIMES IN A GAME SINCE HE WAS IN HIS FIRST FINALS! WHAT KIND OF YEAR DID WADE HAVE? SEE, nope! LOL


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> a)he was 2 years in the league not 8
> b)his team won
> c)if you run low you should try vicks medicated


We used to rub vics vaporub under our eyes as kids. Made us feel all weird...


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

now that I have to agree with r-star on - you're feeding the troll


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

it's a really bad idea that he should follow up on


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

That's it. I'm leaving this thread out of disgust. 

I'm utterly disappointed in the both of you. You're flirting very closely with being removed as my #2 friend on my user page Mamba.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

I don't know, I liked it. 

Speaking of that, I'm watching the episode of Seinfeld where George's fiance Susan has a doll that looks exactly like his mom. It still creeps me out after all these years, but I laugh my ass off when he has it sitting across from him at the diner and hes having an argument with it/her.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> LMFAO! WADE HASNT BEEN ABE TO DUNK LIKE THAT 3 or $ TIMES IN A GAME SINCE HE WAS IN HIS FIRST FINALS! WHAT KIND OF YEAR DID WADE HAVE? SEE, YOUR AN IDIOT> YOU SIR, ARE A JACKASS! LOL


What kind of year did Wade have?















Did you really say "Your an idiot"

And you call me the jack-ass?


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

I'm not sure what to say here


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

This is your last chance Mamba. Operation R-Star.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

You know what to say. 

You know.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> a)he was 2 years in the league not 8
> b)his team won
> c)if you run low you should try vicks medicated


Doesn't matter if his team won, still happened. 

Also I think we can confirm how much better Larry's team-mates are since they were able to win with him performing back-to-back 8 point games. 

Thanks for pointing that out. Lebron = The Best.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

That's the thing about talking to strangers, you don't really know who they are or what they'll say.

Are they going to say something you enjoy? Like then you get in a deep conversation about one of your interests? Or are they going to tell you they eat dead rats while they hide in the bushes watching kids at the park?

You don't know. You never know. That's why I don't take the risk.


----------



## 27dresses

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



e-monk said:


> What I'd like to see him become is kind of a Pippen circa Portland


That certainly seems to fit Kobe's personality


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

sure it does


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

I think you can tell certain things about people even just from reading their posts on the internet - like for instance I can think of at least one person who hopes and prays that some day a certain large black man will take him in his manly hands and push him face down over his mother's couch and....


----------



## 27dresses

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



doctordrizzay said:


> What kind of year did Wade have?


I think it would be called a season in which Wade wom another NBA Championship.

How'd Kobe do in the playoffs?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> no one really cares about your opinion, espeically myself. Kobe always chokes games and always misses shots? Ill be ignoring all of your comments thats for sure.


Well so much for ignoring all of his comments...


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Instead of getting angry at you guys again, I've decided the blame belongs with me.

I'm just not a good enough leader to champion this plan. The fault here belongs squarely with R-Star.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

I agree, bad you


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



doctordrizzay said:


> Did you really say "Your an idiot"
> 
> And you call me the jack-ass?


uhhhhmmm.....




doctordrizzay said:


> not when *your inefficient*. stop trolling


Did you really just criticize someone else's spelling?


Really, I just wanted to add fuel to the "R-star failed" fire here.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



R-Star said:


> That's it. I'm leaving this thread out of disgust.
> 
> I'm utterly disappointed in the both of you. You're flirting very closely with being removed as my #2 friend on my user page Mamba.



My bad, just hard not to challenge blasphemy.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

I tried man. Don't hate a guy for trying.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



R-Star said:


> That's it. I'm leaving this thread out of disgust.
> 
> I'm utterly disappointed in the both of you. You're flirting very closely with being removed as my #2 friend on my user page Mamba.





XxIrvingxX said:


> Well so much for ignoring all of his comments...





R-Star said:


> Instead of getting angry at you guys again, I've decided the blame belongs with me.
> 
> I'm just not a good enough leader to champion this plan. The fault here belongs squarely with R-Star.





l0st1 said:


> uhhhhmmm.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you really just criticize someone else's spelling?
> 
> 
> Really, I just wanted to add fuel to the "R-star failed" fire here.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*






Kobe was the best shooting guard in the league. Look at the numbers. and he will be a top 7 player next year too.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Kobe Bryant - Scoring Repertory Highlights - Season 2012-2013 - HD - YouTube
> 
> Kobe was the best shooting guard in the league. Look at the numbers. and he will be a top 7 player next year too.


Nah.

Wade won the championship. Lakers never won a playoff game. 

Just stop trolling, also James Harden annihilates Kobe as well. 

Kobe might be, a big MIGHT be a top 7 shooting guard next year. MIGHT.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

This just makes Kobe look like a high school player.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



27dresses said:


> I think it would be called a season in which Wade wom another NBA Championship.
> 
> How'd Kobe do in the playoffs?


Your a troll too. Kobe suffered a devestating injury, with a depleted team while Dwayne Wade let Lebron win him another ring. WHo does Miami have? Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Chris Bosh, Chris Anderson. Hmm...WHo did LA have on their bench? Jamison? And its a whole different ball game out west. THey wouldnt have won 27 in a row out west. Back to Kobe, he was still the best shooting guard in the league. Hell, even MJ said it: KOBE! R-star has a good head on his shoulders who sees Kobe is still a top five player (as of last year)


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Your a troll too. Kobe suffered a devestating injury, with a depleted team while Dwayne Wade let Lebron win him another ring. WHo does Miami have? Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Chris Bosh, Chris Anderson. Hmm...WHo did LA have on their bench? Jamison? And its a whole different ball game out west. THey wouldnt have won 27 in a row out west. Back to Kobe, he was still the best shooting guard in the league. Hell, even MJ said it: KOBE! R-star has a good head on his shoulders who sees Kobe is still a top five player (as of last year)


Who did Lakers have? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

There was a reason why Ron Artest said the Lakers would win 73 games.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1339842-metta-world-peace-is-right-the-la-lakers-can-win-73-games

Lakers were the most stacked team in the NBA, but nobody had the heart to win games. Especially Kobe who had an awful season. They couldn't even win a playoff game let alone himself even play one.


Everyone had them to win the championship this year. Kobe and his stacked team failed. 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/los-angeles-lakers-2012-2013-game-game-predictions-125800423--nba.html


It was the biggest failure in sports history...so how in the blue hell does Kobe even light a candle to the best SG? He isn't even top 7 at this point. 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1623443-biggest-fail-moments-of-la-lakers-season


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

oh mamba...


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



e-monk said:


> oh mamba...


lol let him read this and if he has a comeback, its complete blasphemy

Im not going to debate anything more about it. 31,617 points, 6,575 rebounds, 5,887 assists, 1,828 steals. 
Career: 5-time NBA Champion (2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010) ... 2007-08 NBA Most Valuable Player ... 2009 NBA Finals MVP ... 2010 NBA Finals MVP ... Helped lead the United States to a gold medal in the 2008 Beijing Olympics ... Has earned All-NBA honors in each of the last 12 seasons (First Team in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010; Second Team in 2000 and 2001; Third Team in 1999 and 2005) … Has been named to the NBA’s All Defensive Team 10 times (First Team in 2000, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010; Second Team in 2001 and 2002) … Named a starter for the Western Conference All-Star Team in each of the last 12 games (2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001, 2000 and 1998 - no game in 1999) … Led all NBA players in voting for the 2003 All-Star Game ... Earned MVP honors at the 2002 All-Star Game in his hometown of Philadelphia, in the 2007 All-Star Game in Las Vegas and co-MVP honors at the 2009 All-Star Game in Phoenix … Became the youngest player ever to score 15,000 - 20,000 career points & 23,000 - 25,000 career points, to be named to the NBA’s All Defensive Team (1999-2000), to start an All-Star Game (1998) and to earn All-Rookie honors (1996-97) ... Won the 1997 Gatorade Slam Dunk Championship during All-Star Weekend … Is the second youngest player in Los Angeles franchise history (behind Andrew Bynum) to appear in a regular season game in his NBA debut 11/3/96 vs. Minnesota (18 years, two months and 11 days) and is the third youngest player to ever appear in an NBA game (only Andrew Bynum and Indiana’s Jermaine O’Neal were younger) … Has been selected Western Conference Player of the Month 12 times (November 2001, January 2003, March 2004, January, April 2006, December 2006, March 2007, February 2008, April 2008, December 2008, January 2009, December 2009) and has earned Western Conference Player of the Week honors 25 times (11/4/01, 1/20/02, 11/3/02, 12/8/02, 1/12/03, 2/2/03, 2/23/03, 2/17/04, 3/22/04, 11/13/05, 12/18/05, 12/25/05, 1/22/06, 4/16/06, 3/18/07, 3/25/07, 1/13/08, 3/2/08, 4/6/08, 12/29/08, 1/12/09, 3/16/09, 11/22/09, 12/20/09 and 12/27/09) … Prior to that was named NBA Player of the Month once (December 2000) and NBA Player of the Week twice (April 16, 2000 and December 24, 2000) ... Captured the 2005-06 and 2006-07 scoring titles ... In 2005-06, averaged 35.4 points per game (8th highest scoring average of all-time), passing Bob McAdoo for the 7th best scoring season of all-time (2,832 points) ... Scored a career-high 81 points (55 in the second half) 1/22/06 vs. TOR, the 2nd highest game (81) and half (55) point totals in NBA history ... Ranks third in NBA history behind Wilt Chamberlain (118) and Michael Jordan (31) with 24 career 50-plus point games ... Has 104 career 40-plus point games, 140 career double-doubles and 16 career triple-doubles ... Is the Lakers all-time leading scorer and ranks 12th on the NBA’s all-time scoring list. Now what do the haters have to say?


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

I can go all night man


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

81 points


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



doctordrizzay said:


> Who did Lakers have? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
> 
> There was a reason why Ron Artest said the Lakers would win 73 games.
> 
> http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1339842-metta-world-peace-is-right-the-la-lakers-can-win-73-games
> 
> Lakers were the most stacked team in the NBA, but nobody had the heart to win games. Especially Kobe who had an awful season. They couldn't even win a playoff game let alone himself even play one.
> 
> 
> Everyone had them to win the championship this year. Kobe and his stacked team failed.
> 
> 
> Anyone that takes the word of Ron Artest is an idiot, and the fact that your using it as an example shows me how much of a tard you are. The fact that you have so much hate and show no respect towards the man shows me you probably think Lebron is better than Jordan. Sorry to say, Lebron is more like another laker great named Magic Johnson. Nothing like Michael. Kobe and Michael are one step ahead of Lebron, and they always will be. Will you be following him when he bails on the heat and goes to the cavs? THat s**t was staged. He told Dan Gilbert to get some picks and Ill come back. He got Bynum, irving, waiters and thompson waiting for him. Your a moron and I cant stand your stupidity.
> http://www.attractivelol.com/images...e-jordan-and-scalabrine-funny-wall-photos.jpg


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> doctordrizzay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who did Lakers have? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
> 
> There was a reason why Ron Artest said the Lakers would win 73 games.
> 
> http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1339842-metta-world-peace-is-right-the-la-lakers-can-win-73-games
> 
> Lakers were the most stacked team in the NBA, but nobody had the heart to win games. Especially Kobe who had an awful season. They couldn't even win a playoff game let alone himself even play one.
> 
> 
> Everyone had them to win the championship this year. Kobe and his stacked team failed.
> 
> 
> Anyone that takes the word of Ron Artest is an idiot, and the fact that your using it as an example shows me how much of a tard you are. The fact that you have so much hate and show no respect towards the man shows me you probably think Lebron is better than Jordan. Sorry to say, Lebron is more like another laker great named Magic Johnson. Nothing like Michael. Kobe and Michael are one step ahead of Lebron, and they always will be. Will you be following him when he bails on the heat and goes to the cavs? THat s**t was staged. He told Dan Gilbert to get some picks and Ill come back. He got Bynum, irving, waiters and thompson waiting for him. *Your a moron and I cant stand your stupidity. *
> http://www.attractivelol.com/images...e-jordan-and-scalabrine-funny-wall-photos.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> *Again?? Hahaha. He still doesn't know folks.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also Look! I can post highlight video's of shitty players too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just because Kobe has "highlights" doesn't make him any better.
Click to expand...


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

So this is the kind of discussion I can expect being stuck on night shift? 

Well at least I have Big Brother After Dark. You're going home Helen.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



e-monk said:


> I think you can tell certain things about people even just from reading their posts on the internet - like for instance *I can think of at least one person who hopes and prays that some day a certain large black man will take him in his manly hands and push him face down over his mother's couch and...*.


Considering the crap they post, i'd say that would be the happiest day of at least TWO posters' lives (although the other one can at least post a little besides LBJ's manlihood)


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

I got your back Drizzay don't listen to these clowns


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



R-Star said:


> If there's ever going to be a guy to be the exception to the rule on this its going to be Kobe.
> 
> *But honestly, I think this is pretty clearly going to be the time you finally watch Kobes game decline, and in a very drastic fashion. He's beaten father time by being the hardest working, most stubborn guy in the league, but he'll be 35, but even worse going into his 18th season in the league. *
> 
> The end has to come at some point. This seems like the logical starting point to me. As I said though, I won't be surprised if he proves me wrong.


Yup.
How much of Kobe's decline is yet to be seen, but i'd say it will be significant.
And, since the Lakers aren't contending anytime soon, it will be a little painfull to see Kobe playing for nothing the next couple of seasons...


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



LeGoat06 said:


> I got your back Drizzay don't listen to these clowns


And... Right on cue...


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



PauloCatarino said:


> Yup.
> How much of Kobe's decline is yet to be seen, but i'd say it will be significant.
> And, since the Lakers aren't contending anytime soon, it will be a little painfull to see Kobe playing for nothing the next couple of seasons...


Yea, the next couple years of Lakers and Mavericks games are going to make me feel better about the whole Pierce-to-Brooklyn move. At least I have a legitimate rooting interest for the next year or two while the Celtics rebuild.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*

How do Kobe's nuts taste today Paulo


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



LeGoat06 said:


> How do Kobe's nuts taste today Paulo


Lol. Missed the mark, young grasshopper. I'm not that big of a Kobe's fan.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Lol. Missed the mark, young grasshopper. I'm not that big of a Kobe's fan.


I know lol But I got nothing else right now Lakers are irrelevant besides Kobe. But i'm sure they'll be near the top in a year or two. Can't really keep thiem down long.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



LeGoat06 said:


> I know lol But I got nothing else right now Lakers are irrelevant besides Kobe. *But i'm sure they'll be near the top in a year or two. * Can't really keep thiem down long.


Unfortunately, i think it will take a little longer than that...  But we'll see...


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

2× NBA champion: 2012, 2013
2× NBA Finals MVP: 2012, 2013
4× NBA Most Valuable Player: 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013
NBA Rookie of the Year: 2004
NBA scoring champion: 2008
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2006, 2008
9× NBA All-Star: 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013
9× All-NBA:
First Team: 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013
Second Team: 2005, 2007
5× NBA All-Defensive:
First Team: 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013
NBA All-Rookie First Team: 2004
20× NBA Eastern Conference Player of the Month[3]
41× NBA Eastern Conference Player of the Week[3]
6× NBA Eastern Conference Rookie of the Month[3]

United States National Team

Cited from USA Basketball's LeBron James page unless noted otherwise.[4]

3× Olympic medalist:
Gold: 2008, 2012
Bronze: 2004
2× FIBA Americas Championship medalist:
Gold: 2007
Bronze: 2006
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year: 2012[5]

High school

Cited from the NBA's LeBron James prospect profile page unless noted otherwise.[6]

National champion: 2003
3× State champion: 2000, 2001, 2003
2× Gatorade National Player of the Year: 2002, 2003
2× USA Today High School Player of the Year: 2002, 2003
3× Ohio Mr. Basketball: 2001, 2002, 2003
3× USA Today All-USA First Team: 2001, 2002, 2003
2× PARADE High School Player of the Year: 2002, 2003
Naismith Prep Player of the Year: 2003[7]
McDonald's National Player of the Year: 2003[8]
McDonald's High School All-American: 2003[9]
McDonald's All-American Game MVP: 2003
EA Sports Roundball Classic MVP: 2003[10]
Jordan Capital Classic MVP: 2003[10]

Other awards

Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year: 2012
Sporting News Athlete of the Year: 2012
Sporting News NBA MVP: 2006
Sporting News Rookie of the Year: 2004
Sports Illustrated NBA All-Decade First Team: 2000–2009 decade
4× Best NBA Player ESPY Award: 2007, 2009, 2012, 2013
2× Best Male Athlete ESPY Award: 2012, 2013
Best Breakthrough Athlete ESPY Award: 2004
2× Best Championship Performance ESPY Award: 2012, 2013
6× BET Sportsman of the Year: 2004, 2006, 2007 2009, 2010, 2013

One of five players in NBA history to win 4 NBA Most Valuable Player Awards.[11]
Includes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain
One of ten players in NBA history to win 2 NBA Finals MVP Awards.[12]
Includes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kobe Bryant, Willis Reed and Tim Duncan
One of three players in NBA history to win NBA MVP and Finals MVP in the same season twice;[13]
Includes Larry Bird and Michael Jordan
One of three players in NBA history to win NBA MVP and win NBA championship in two consecutive seasons;[14]
Includes Bill Russell and Michael Jordan
One of two players in NBA history to win 4 NBA Most Valuable Player Awards in a span of 5 years.[11]
Includes Bill Russell.
One of five players in NBA history to win consecutive Finals MVP Awards.
Includes Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Kobe Bryant.
One of seven players in NBA history to score 20,000 points in 8 seasons.[11]
Includes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Alex English, Karl Malone, Dominique Wilkins.
One of four players in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists in their rookie season.[11]
Includes Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, Tyreke Evans.
One of five players in NBA history to average over 25 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season (achieved this five times).[11]
Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this six times), John Havlicek (achieved this twice), Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan.
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season.[11]
Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this five times) and Michael Jordan.
One of four players in NBA history to average at least 31 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists in a season.[11]
Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this twice), Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.
One of two players in NBA history to average at least 27 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for six consecutive seasons.[11]
Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this eight consecutive times.
One of two players in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds and 500 assists in a season for at least six seasons.[11]
Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this six times in his career.
One of four players in NBA history to average at least 25 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists for their career.[11]
Includes Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.
Only player in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds and 500 assists in a season for at least seven seasons.[11]
Only player in NBA history to average at least 26 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for their career.[11]
Only player in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds, 500 assists and 100 steals in four straight seasons.[11]
Only player in NBA history to post 30+ points and shoot over 60% for six consecutive games.
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 10 rebounds and 7 assists in a postseason series.[15]
Includes Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird.
Only player in NBA history to average at least 25 points, 10 rebounds and 7 assists in an NBA finals series.[16]
Accomplished twice, in 2012 and 2013.
One of three players in NBA history to record a triple-double in their playoff debut.[11]
Includes Johnny McCarthy and Magic Johnson.
One of five players in NBA history to record a triple-double in finals clinching game.
Includes Magic Johnson (twice, 1982 and 1985), Larry Bird (1986), James Worthy (1988), and Tim Duncan (2003).
One of two players in NBA history to win the NBA Player of the Month Award four times for two consecutive seasons.[17]
Tied with Kevin Garnett, who achieved the same in the 2003-04 NBA Season.
One of four players in NBA history to lead their team in all five major statistical categories (total points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals) in a season (2008–09 season).[18]
Includes Dave Cowens (1977–78), Scottie Pippen (1994–95) and Kevin Garnett (2002–03).
1st player in NBA History to receive 2.5 million NBA All-Star votes on 3 separate occasions.
1st player in NBA History to score at least 40 points in the first road playoff game with 41 points at the Washington Wizards on April 28, 2006.
1st forward in NBA history to average more than 8.0 assists per game (2009–2010).
2nd place all-time for consecutive 20-point games to start a playoff career with 19.[19]
Behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's 27 consecutive games
Most consecutive points scored for a team in a playoff game with 25 straight points at the Detroit Pistons on May 31, 2007.[20]
One of two players in NBA history to win Regular Season MVP, Finals MVP, an NBA Championship and an Olympic Gold Medal in the same year.
Includes Michael Jordan (1992).
Three-Point field goals made, NBA All-Star Game, career: 23, Feb 17, 2013 [21]
1st player in NBA History with at least 1 triple-double in 3 consecutive NBA Finals.

Youngest player records

James owns numerous NBA "youngest player" records. He is the youngest1

To be selected #1 overall draft pick (18 years of age).[11]
To be named NBA Rookie of the Year (19 years of age).[11]
To record a triple-double (20 years, 20 days).[11]
Recorded 27 points, 11 rebounds, and 10 assists on January 19, 2005 vs. Portland Trail Blazers.
To record a triple-double in the playoffs. (21 years, 113 days).[11]
Recorded 32 points, 11 rebounds, and 11 assists on April 22, 2006 vs. Washington Wizards.
To score 30 points in a game (18 years, 334 days).[11]
Recorded 33 points on November 29, 2003 vs. Memphis Grizzlies
To score 40 points in a game (19 years, 88 days).[11]
Recorded 41 points on March 27, 2004 vs. New Jersey Nets.
To score 2,000 points in a season (2004–05).[11]
To average at least 30 points per game in the NBA.
To be awarded All-NBA honors (2004–05).[11]
To be named to the All-NBA first team (21 years, 138 days).[11]
To win an All-Star Game MVP (21 years, 55 days).[11]
To lead the league in All-Star voting (22 years, 26 days).[11]
To score 2,000 points in seven consecutive seasons (26 years of age).[11]
To win Most Valuable Player award four times (28 years of age).[11]
To reach:[11]

Every point milestone from 1,000 to 21,000[22][23][24]

Notes: 1 Beginning in 2006 the NBA introduced age requirement restrictions. Prospective high school players must now wait a year before entering the NBA, making these records more difficult to break.
Cleveland Cavaliers franchise records
Regular season
Service

Minutes played, career: 22,108[25]

Minutes played, season: 3,388 (2004–05)[26]
Scoring

Points, career: 21,081

Highest average, points per game, career: 27.8 (15,251/548)

Points, season: 2,478 (2005–06)[26]

Highest average, points per game, season: 31.4 (2,478/79) (2005–06)[26]

Points, game: 56, at Toronto Raptors, March 20, 2005[27]

Points, half: 35, first half, vs. New York Knicks, February 6, 2010

Points, quarter: 24, three times

24, fourth quarter, at Toronto Raptors, January 6, 2008
24, first quarter, at Chicago Bulls, April 11, 2008
24, third quarter, at Milwaukee Bucks, February 20, 2009

Games scoring 50 or more points, career: 8[28]

Games scoring 50 or more points, season: 3 (2008–09)[28]

Games scoring 40 or more points, career: 42[28]

Games scoring 40 or more points, season: 10 (2005–06)[28]
Field goals

Field goals made, career: 7559

Field goals made, season: 875 (2005–06)[26]

Field goal attempts, career: 15411

Field goal attempts, season: 1823 (2005–06)[26]

Field goal attempts, game: 36, at Toronto Raptors, March 20, 2005[27]

Tied with Mike Mitchell (at Houston Rockets, February 8, 1980, and at New Jersey Nets, February 18, 1981)

Three-point field goals

Three-point field goals made, game: 8, at Milwaukee Bucks, February 20, 2009

Tied with Danny Ferry (vs. Charlotte Hornets, February 13, 1996) and Wesley Person (at Philadelphia 76ers, February 17, 1998)

Three-point field goals made, quarter: 5, twice[27]

5, second quarter, vs. Milwaukee Bucks, April 9, 2005
5, third quarter, at Milwaukee Bucks, February 20, 2009
5, first quarter, vs. Los Angeles Clippers, January 31, 2010
Tied with Mark Price, Steve Kerr and Wesley Person

Three-point field goal attempts, career: 2,344

Three-point field goal attempts, game: 13, three times[27]

13, vs. Milwaukee Bucks, April 9, 2005
13, vs. New York Knicks, April 14, 2005
13, at New York Knicks, March 5, 2008
Tied with Dan Majerle (vs. Seattle SuperSonics, March 5, 1996 (2 OT))

Free throws

Free throws made, season: 601 (2005–06)[26]

Free throws made, game: 24, at Miami Heat, March 12, 2006[27]

Free throws made, half: 16, second half, at Miami Heat, March 12, 2006[27]

Free throw attempts, career: 6,617

Free throw attempts, season: 814 (2005–06)[26]
Steals

Steals, career: 1323
Turnovers

Turnovers, career: 2525

Turnovers, half: 9, second half, at New Orleans Hornets, March 28, 2005[27]
Triple-Doubles

Triple-doubles, career:36

Triple-doubles, season: 7 (2007–08, 2008–09)

Playoffs

Games played, career: 71

Tied with Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Anderson Varejao

Minutes played, career: 3,086
Scoring

Points, career: 3,871

Highest average, points per game, career: 28.1 (2,081/71)

Points, game: 49, vs. Orlando, May 20, 2009[29]

Points, half: 30, first half, at Boston Celtics, June 7, 2012

Points, quarter: 21, first quarter, at Boston Celtics, May 7, 2010

Points, overtime: 10, at Orlando Magic, May 26, 2009

Consecutive points, game: 25, from 2:16 of fourth quarter to end of game (second overtime), at Detroit Pistons, May 31, 2007[30]

LeBron scored his team's last seven points in the fourth quarter, all nine of his team's points in the first overtime, and all nine of his team's points in the second overtime.

Games scoring 40 or more points, career: 9
Field goals

Field goals made, career: 690

Field goals made, game: 20, vs. Orlando Magic, May 20, 2009

Field goals made, half: 11, twice

11, first half, vs. Orlando Magic, May 20, 2009
11, first half, at Boston Celtics, May 7, 2010

Field goals made, quarter: 8, first quarter, at Boston Celtics, May 7, 2010

Field goals made, overtime: 4, second overtime, at Detroit Pistons, May 31, 2007[31]

Field goal attempts, career: 1,504

Field goal attempts, game: 33, at Detroit Pistons, May 31, 2007 (2 OT)[31]

Field goal attempts, half: 17, first half, at Detroit Pistons, May 17, 2006[31]
Three-point field goals

Three-point field goals made, career: 107

Three-point field goals made, game: 7, at Washington Wizards, April 30, 2006[31]

Three-point field goals made, half: 6, first half, at New Orleans Hornets, March 29, 2013[31]

Tied by Daniel Gibson (second half, vs. Detroit Pistons, June 2, 2007)

Three-point field goals made, overtime: 1, second overtime, at Detroit Pistons, May 31, 2007

Tied with Mark Price (at Chicago Bulls, May 5, 1989)

Three-point field goal attempts, career: 339

Three-point field goal attempts, half: 9, second half, at Boston Celtics, May 18, 2008
Free throws

Free throws made, career: 594

Free throws made, game: 18, at Orlando Magic, May 24, 2009

Free throws made, quarter: 10, fourth quarter, vs. Detroit Pistons, May 19, 2006[31]

Free throws made, overtime: 5, first overtime, at Detroit Pistons, May 31, 2007

Free throw attempts, career: 800

Free throw attempts, game: 24, at Orlando Magic, May 24, 2009

Free throw attempts, half: 16, second half, at Orlando Magic, May 24, 2009

Free throw attempts, quarter: 12, twice

12, fourth quarter, vs. Detroit Pistons, May 19, 2006
12, fourth quarter, at Orlando Magic, May 24, 2009

Free throw attempts, overtime: 6, first overtime, at Detroit Pistons, May 31, 2007
Rebounding

Rebounds, career: 1191

Rebounds, half: 13, second half, at Boston Celtics, May 13, 2010

Defensive rebounds, career: 968

Defensive rebounds, game: 16, at Boston Celtics, May 13, 2010

Tied with Brad Daugherty (vs. New Jersey Nets, May 9, 1993)

Defensive rebounds, half: 12, second half, at Boston Celtics, May 13, 2010
Assists

Assists, career: 924
Steals

Steals, career: 236
Turnovers

Turnovers, game: 10, twice

10, vs. Washington Wizards, April 25, 2006
10, at Boston Celtics, May 6, 2008

Miami Heat franchise records

Regular season
Scoring

Points, first quarter: 23, at Orlando Magic, February 3, 2011

Points, first quarter: 24, at Milwaukee Bucks, February 1, 2012

Points, third quarter: 23, at Atlanta Hawks, March 18, 2011

Points, third quarter: 24, at Cleveland Cavaliers, December 2, 2010
Field goals

Field goals made, first half: 12, at Orlando Magic, February 3, 2011

Field goals made, quarter: 10, third quarter, at Cleveland Cavaliers, December 2, 2010
Turnovers

Turnovers, quarter: 5, first quarter, at Philadelphia 76ers, October 27, 2010

Tied with Jamal Mashburn (first quarter, vs. Sacramento Kings, November 29, 1999) and Lamar Odom (second quarter, vs. Washington Wizards, December 23, 2004)

Triple-doubles

Triple-doubles, season: 8 (2010–11) (10 including playoffs)


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

LeBron has nothing to do with this. I just hate when people post accomplishments like you did at the beginning of the page.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

I've said before that I think Kobe's spirit and heart will actually work against him with this injury. He will be out on the floor the first time he can limp, and at his age and with the severity of this kind of injury, it just doesn't bode well. A full recovery is best, but Kobe doesn't have that kind of patience. 

Kobe had already started to decline noticeably, but next year people will really be paying attention. If he can't get by defenders, or rise above defenders, it really makes those jumpers much more contested. Kobe can get 20 in his sleep and I think his scoring numbers will probably stay in the 22-25 range, but the efficiency is where he'll suffer. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see him dip below 40% FG next season. 

I also can't wait until the first time he gets an unexpected dunk and people claim he has fully regained all of his athleticism.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I've said before that I think Kobe's spirit and heart will actually work against him with this injury. He will be out on the floor the first time he can limp, and at his age and with the severity of this kind of injury, it just doesn't bode well. A full recovery is best, but Kobe doesn't have that kind of patience.
> 
> Kobe had already started to decline noticeably, but next year people will really be paying attention. If he can't get by defenders, or rise above defenders, it really makes those jumpers much more contested. Kobe can get 20 in his sleep and I think his scoring numbers will probably stay in the 22-25 range, but the efficiency is where he'll suffer. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see him dip below 40% FG next season.
> 
> I also can't wait until the first time he gets an unexpected dunk and people claim he has fully regained all of his athleticism.


Kobe's season last year was his best in like 4 years. The game before the one he got hurt he put up like 46 points, 8 boards, 7 assists while shooting over 55%. 

I didn't notice the decline.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Jamel Irief said:


> Kobe's season last year was his best in like 4 years. The game before the one he got hurt he put up like 46 points, 8 boards, 7 assists while shooting over 55%.
> 
> I didn't notice the decline.


It was also the Lakers' worst season in like 4 years. You think he was better last year not playing at all on one side of the court than when he went to the Finals three times in a row?


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



LeGoat06 said:


> LeBron has nothing to do with this. I just hate when people post accomplishments like you did at the beginning of the page.


You wont be a lebron fan when he goes back to cleveland will you? Change your profile name. Lebron is not better than Jordan or Kobe.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> You wont be a lebron fan when he goes back to cleveland will you? Change your profile name. Lebron is not better than Jordan or Kobe.


LeBron is better than Kobe. Only Kobetards think not. I have always been a LeBron fan allways will be but if they play Heat in playoffs if he's on a different team the Heat come first. LeBron coming to Miami was just the perfect storm for me which i've explained on this forum many times.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*






Lebron better????? LMFAO!


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Lol cool highlight. Scalabrine has those too. But here you go anyway


http://www.basketballforum.com/miami-heat/510665-legoat-appreciation-thread.html


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

WHen he accomplihes what Kobe has, on ONE TEAM, then we can talk. Kobe's will to win and 4th quarter play and FUNDAMENTALLS are much better than Lebrons are, period. Michael, who is the greatest ever, even said he would take Kobe over Lebron. Wait till he bails on y'all again.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Lebron has no loaylity whatsoever. Kobe has stayed in LA his whole career. Lebron had to jump ship to win a title. WHats that tell you. He cant win without 2 other all-stars and a shit load of role players. Whod kobe have when they repeated? Gasol and 2 role players (Ariza and Bynum). Thats it. gtfo bro


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Michael drafted Kwame Brown. Who gives a shit what he thinks


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Good to see this thread stayed on topic. Lebron fanboys vs Kobe fanboys.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

I'd stay too if I had a top 10 player of all time to start my career with and a team willing to build around me in a city that top players wanna play in


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Go troll someone else


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Kobe is a top 50 player tho


----------



## Basel

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

I expect him to play at a high level. Until he proves me wrong, I have no reason to believe he won't play at a high level, be on the All-Star team and make 1st Team All-NBA again. I know this is the worst injury he's had but he's also defied all odds against previous (albeit smaller) injuries. He's so dedicated to his craft and is obsessed with still being one of the best players in the league. And he loves to prove people wrong who doubt him. Every year, people say Kobe is going to decline and every year he shuts everyone up. It'll be more of the same this season.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

I love how troll is just thrown around to everyone like it means something. The word is completely overused.

Especially by little kids like you. Go back to your Lebron strokefest thread and stop dragging it into every thread.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



l0st1 said:


> I love how troll is just thrown around to everyone like it means something. The word is completely overused.
> 
> Especially by little kids like you. Go back to your Lebron strokefest thread and stop dragging it into every thread.


Calm Down L0st you know I love you


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Basel said:


> I expect him to play at a high level. Until he proves me wrong, I have no reason to believe he won't play at a high level, be on the All-Star team and make 1st Team All-NBA again. I know this is the worst injury he's had but he's also defied all odds against previous (albeit smaller) injuries. He's so dedicated to his craft and is obsessed with still being one of the best players in the league. And he loves to prove people wrong who doubt him. Every year, people say Kobe is going to decline and every year he shuts everyone up. It'll be more of the same this season.


Kobe will obviously be an All-star, strictly because of votes. Whether he deserves it or not Kobe will be an All-star until he retires.

I have my doubts Kobe will be 1st team All-NBA. He has some tough competition at the guards spots and regardless of his inhuman recovery time it's still a severe injury on not only an older(by sports standards) body but also a body that has a TON of mileage on it. 

He will definitely come back and be a very good player, not sure he will be the world-beater Kobe that some expect. But should be an interesting storyline to start the year.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> *WHen he accomplihes what Kobe has, on ONE TEAM*, then we can talk. Kobe's will to win and 4th quarter play and FUNDAMENTALLS are much better than Lebrons are, period. Michael, who is the greatest ever, even said he would take Kobe over Lebron. Wait till he bails on y'all again.


Lebron James ON ONE TEAM.

Miami Heat

*3 Years*

2 MVP's -2 Final MVP's

Kobe Bryant

*17 Years on one team*

1 MVP 2 Final MVPs.




IN THREE YEARS LEBRON HAS OVERCOME KOBE LMAOOOO. THANKS FOR PROVING LEBRON IS BETTER. TOOK HIM 3 YEARS TO DO THAT.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

I don't know if anyone can beat a DoctorDrizzay/LeGoat combo on these boards


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Lebron has accomplished more than Kobe in 3 Years than Kobes entire career.*

First off we of course don't count Rings, because then Robert Horry would be better than Jordan with that logic. We count the individual awards.


Lebron James:

Miami Heat

3 Years

*2 MVP's -2 Final MVP's*

Kobe Bryant

17 Years on one team

*1 MVP 2 Final MVPs.*



How amazing is that? Lebron as accomplished more than Kobe's entire career within 3 years. Insane! It's so easy for Lebron to dominate, yet it took Kobe into his 30's to win an MVP and Finals MVP.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Lebron has accomplished more than Kobe in 3 Years than Kobes entire career.*

Let the games begin.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



LeGoat06 said:


> I don't know if anyone can beat a DoctorDrizzay/LeGoat combo on these boards


They can't and they know it


----------



## King Joseus

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

:|


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

:hano:


King Joseus said:


> :|


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Is Lebron the greatest SF of alltime?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Unfortunately, i think it will take a little longer than that...  But we'll see...


For a long time the Lakers were allowed to rape teams for their best assets, and were way over the cap all the time. Now they have to do something they havent done well, which is draft. The cap will aways be there, but now that the fee's are much higher the Laker may stay away from the past route


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Can't overcome pure, unadulterated stupidity.

It's not completely outrageous to think LeBron is better than Kobe, but to use criteria like what's posted above is simply idiotic


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

:manbearpig:


l0st1 said:


> Can't overcome pure, unadulterated stupidity.
> 
> It's not completely outrageous to think LeBron is better than Kobe, but to use criteria like what's posted above is simply idiotic


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



doctordrizzay said:


> Lebron James ON ONE TEAM.
> 
> Miami Heat
> 
> *3 Years*
> 
> 2 MVP's -2 Final MVP's
> 
> Kobe Bryant
> 
> *17 Years on one team*
> 
> 1 MVP 2 Final MVPs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IN THREE YEARS LEBRON HAS OVERCOME KOBE LMAOOOO. THANKS FOR PROVING LEBRON IS BETTER. TOOK HIM 3 YEARS TO DO THAT.






Did you ever forget that Shaq, the most dominant unstoppable force, was the finals mvp three times? What can you say about that? Honestly, Lebron has made a promise to the people of Cleveland, got beat down in the finals aganist San Antonio, jumped ship to miami, got spanked in the finals aganist Dallas, screwed OKC in the finals, and Ray Allen bailed him out in the finals last year. Lebron was shut down by Leonard. Maybe the two of you should go get a room and praise Lebron together if your so cool lol. Kobe and Jordan are the standard.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Did you ever forget that Shaq, the most dominant unstoppable force, was the finals mvp three times? What can you say about that? Honestly, Lebron has made a promise to the people of Cleveland, got beat down in the finals aganist San Antonio, jumped ship to miami, got spanked in the finals aganist Dallas, screwed OKC in the finals, and Ray Allen bailed him out in the finals last year. Lebron was shut down by Leonard. Maybe the two of you should go get a room and praise Lebron together if your so cool lol. Kobe and Jordan are the standard.


Kobe is not in LeBrons league. KoMe could barely make the playoffs after Shaq left. 81 points or not. LeBron's supporting cast was complete shit and still made it to the finals in '07. KoMe needed to get Gasol and Jackson back before he had a chance and KoMe has had some shitty finals perfomances too. Although I have no excuse for LeBrons '11 finals against Mavs.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Outside of Lamar Odom, Kobe didn't really have anyone else on that team during that 3 year span. Lebron had some pretty good players during his time in Cleveland. Not to mention playing in the Eastern Conference it was far easier to make the playoffs and progress in it those years. East was a complete joke during that time.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*






Y'all are idiots. I never said I dont have respect for Lebron, I do to an extent. But Kobe is the most complete offensive player this game has ever seen. Like i said, Jordan and Kobe are alike. Lebron is more like Magic. But Lebron aint better than Magic, no way. Jordan, if he was still in the league today, would easily average 40ppg. No more hand checking on the perimeter. Hed easily win mvp 13 times in a row if he was still around. Point is, until Lebron accomplishes what Kobe has, theres absolutely no comparison.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



LeGoat06 said:


> Kobe is not in LeBrons league. KoMe could barely make the playoffs after Shaq left. 81 points or not. LeBron's supporting cast was complete shit and still made it to the finals in '07. KoMe needed to get Gasol and Jackson back before he had a chance and KoMe has had some shitty finals perfomances too. Although I have no excuse for LeBrons '11 finals against Mavs.



Lebron also plays out east. Tell that boy to come play out west. Much tougher out here where the MEN play.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



l0st1 said:


> Outside of Lamar Odom, Kobe didn't really have anyone else on that team during that 3 year span. Lebron had some pretty good players during his time in Cleveland. Not to mention playing in the Eastern Conference it was far easier to make the playoffs and progress in it those years. East was a complete joke during that time.



The east still is a joke...lol. Whose out east besides the and the nets? No one. Yeah and Kobe carried those shitty teams to the playoffs out west. Dallas was at the top of their game, phoenix, san antonio, denver, houston was still beast. Detroit was the only team that ever gave Lebron a challenge and they were at the end of the road at that point.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

LeBron vs Kobe when neither had superstars to help them.


* 2004-2005 | 34 - 48 record = missed the playoffs
* 2005-2006 | 45 - 37 record = lost in the first round
* 2006-2007 | 42 - 40 record = lost in the first round (after this season, Kobe publicly demanded to be traded)


LeBron:

* 2003-2004 | 35 - 47 record = missed the playoffs
* 2004-2005 | 42 - 40 record = missed the playoffs
* 2005-2006 | 50 - 32 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals
* 2006-2007 | 50 - 32 record = Lost NBA Finals
* 2007-2008 | 45 - 37 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals
* 2008-2009 | 66 - 16 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals
* 2009-2010 | 61 - 21 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

And LeBrons splits against the West the last 3 years have been better than against the East


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



LeGoat06 said:


> LeBron vs Kobe when neither had superstars to help them.
> 
> 
> * 2004-2005 | 34 - 48 record = missed the playoffs
> * 2005-2006 | 45 - 37 record = lost in the first round
> * 2006-2007 | 42 - 40 record = lost in the first round (after this season, Kobe publicly demanded to be traded)
> 
> 
> LeBron:
> 
> * 2003-2004 | 35 - 47 record = missed the playoffs
> * 2004-2005 | 42 - 40 record = missed the playoffs
> * 2005-2006 | 50 - 32 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals
> * 2006-2007 | 50 - 32 record = Lost NBA Finals
> * 2007-2008 | 45 - 37 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals
> * 2008-2009 | 66 - 16 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals
> * 2009-2010 | 61 - 21 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals


dude who was out east when lebron was in cleveland? Its easy to win out east! lol. Winning out west is a different story. Or are you gonna to ignore the other two times I have said it. 

http://www.hiphopsportsreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/kobe_trophies_web.jpg


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Are you gonna ignore the comment where his splits have been better against the west and o ya they had that Celtics team who happened to be prime when LeBron was in cleveland. You guys did lose to them in the finals one year


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*

Also, how will Lebrons body hold up once he's 35? I bet he retires when he's 33 because he has no jumper and his knees wont be able to hold up. He's gonna lose his speed and his ability to jump. Aks yourself: Will Lebron be able to play the way he is now, compared to 6 years from now. SERIOUSLY DOUBT IT. He doesnt have the mentality, will to win or work ethic than Kobe and Mike have.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> The east still is a joke...lol. Whose out east besides the and the nets? No one. Yeah and Kobe carried those shitty teams to the playoffs out west. Dallas was at the top of their game, phoenix, san antonio, denver, houston was still beast. Detroit was the only team that ever gave Lebron a challenge and they were at the end of the road at that point.


I don't think that's as much the case this season - if Rose is back healthy you can add the bulls into the mix along with Pacers and Nets which means the second (barring upsets) will be less of a gimme than it has been in the past


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



LeGoat06 said:


> Are you gonna ignore the comment where his splits have been better against the west and o ya they had that Celtics team who happened to be prime when LeBron was in cleveland. You guys did lose to them in the finals one year


Yeah we also got to the finals while lebron was at home that year, and we did it out west.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Yeah we also got to the finals while lebron was at home that year, and we did it out west.


You guys have been home a lot lately so it's all good


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



e-monk said:


> I don't think that's as much the case this season - if Rose is back healthy you can add the bulls into the mix along with Pacers and Nets which means the second (barring upsets) will be less of a gimme than it has been in the past


I did forget about Indy and Chicago. Miami wont be able to beat Chicago if Rose is back and if Danny Granger comes back, Indy is gonna dominate the east imo. Miami took a safe gamble on Oden, but hes done.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



LeGoat06 said:


> You guys have been home a lot lately so it's all good


We also have 16 world titles to our name, so its all good.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> The east still is a joke...lol. Whose out east besides the and the nets? No one. Yeah and Kobe carried those shitty teams to the playoffs out west. Dallas was at the top of their game, phoenix, san antonio, denver, houston was still beast. Detroit was the only team that ever gave Lebron a challenge and they were at the end of the road at that point.


Let's not get too crazy. Denver and Houston weren't that good when Kobe was struggling to make the playoffs those couple of years.

East had a few ok teams but West was clearly better.

As for now, it's much more balanced. East was Heat, Nets, Bulls, Pacers, Knicks as good teams and Pistons, Hawks and Cavaliers as question marks.

West has Thunder, Clippers, Grizzlies, Spurs, Rockets and Warriors as sure things. And Wolves, Nuggets, and Pelicans as a bit of a question mark.

West still has the edge probably but it's MUCH closer than before.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> We also have 16 world titles to our name, so its all good.


Well, 11 in LA.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Bogg said:


> Well, 11 in LA.



you know what i mean


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



LeGoat06 said:


> LeBron vs Kobe when neither had superstars to help them.
> 
> 
> * 2004-2005 | 34 - 48 record = missed the playoffs
> * 2005-2006 | 45 - 37 record = lost in the first round
> * 2006-2007 | 42 - 40 record = lost in the first round (after this season, Kobe publicly demanded to be traded)
> 
> 
> LeBron:
> 
> * 2003-2004 | 35 - 47 record = missed the playoffs
> * 2004-2005 | 42 - 40 record = missed the playoffs
> * 2005-2006 | 50 - 32 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals
> * 2006-2007 | 50 - 32 record = Lost NBA Finals
> * 2007-2008 | 45 - 37 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals
> * 2008-2009 | 66 - 16 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals
> * 2009-2010 | 61 - 21 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals


Kobe's best, and really only, teammate was Lamar Odom during that time. Meanwhile he's lugging Smush Parker and Kwame Brown's stupid asses into the playoffs.

Lebron had much better teammates. Just because neither had a superstar doesn't mean their teams were on equal footing.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> you know what i mean


Yea, I know. It'll be interesting to see if Kevin Durant can finally win the Thunder their second world championship.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



l0st1 said:


> Kobe's best, and really only, teammate was Lamar Odom during that time. Meanwhile he's lugging Smush Parker and Kwame Brown's stupid asses into the playoffs.
> 
> *Lebron had much better teammates. Just because neither had a superstar doesn't mean their teams were on equal footing*.


Are you serious? Kobe had great teammates, but his bitch like mentality ran them off. He wanted LA to himself then cried when he couldn't get it done. His teams struggled to get to the first round, and when made it, he quit on his team.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Jamel Irief said:


> Kobe's season last year was his best in like 4 years. The game before the one he got hurt he put up like 46 points, 8 boards, 7 assists while shooting over 55%.
> 
> I didn't notice the decline.


The production hasn't declined (although I'd say his last 3-4 seasons are pretty much a standstill), but the shots and moves are getting more and more difficult as his athletic decline takes away his ability to create space and get by people. At some point, he won't be able to overcome that. Or maybe he'll just average 25ppg until he is 40 by routinely making insanely difficult shots. Time will force one of the two to happen.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Pablo5 said:


> Are you serious? Kobe had great teammates, but his bitch like mentality ran them off. He wanted LA to himself then cried when he couldn't get it done. His teams struggled to get to the first round, and when made it, he quit on his team.


Can you read? We are talking about the years after Shaq in which Kobe struggled to make the playoffs.


When he made the playoffs he quit on his team? Which series exactly? You mean the one where he almost single handedly beat the Suns in the 1st round?

And you, a LeBron fan boy, is really commenting on Kobe quitting on his team?


Lebron during those years had : Big Z, Gooden, Varejao, Hughes, Jamison, Mo Williams, Shaq. Hell even Eric Snow and Daniel Gibson were better than Kwame, Smush, Radmonovic, Mihm, Cook, Walton


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## Pablo5

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



l0st1 said:


> Can you read? We are talking about the years after Shaq in which Kobe struggled to make the playoffs.
> 
> 
> When he made the playoffs he quit on his team? Which series exactly? You mean the one where he almost single handedly beat the Suns in the 1st round?
> 
> And you, a LeBron fan boy, is really commenting on Kobe quitting on his team?
> 
> 
> Lebron during those years had : Big Z, Gooden, Varejao, Hughes, Jamison, Mo Williams, Shaq. Hell even Eric Snow and Daniel Gibson were better than Kwame, Smush, Radmonovic, Mihm, Cook, Walton


You do realize that they were up on the Suns 3-1 right? So when you say almost that's bullshit. They choked and he quit on his team. Check the tape fella


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## roux

For a number of years threads about these guys have been made and sidetracked over and over again. The BBF staff has been overrun with complaints about trolling when these threads inevitably spiral out of control. This ends today. This thread is going to be the only home for these arguements from now on. There will be no forum disruption or baiting infractions handed out but any new threads that are centric on this never ending arguement will either be closed or merged at the staffs discretion. I will start by merging in the Expectations for Kobe thread to get this new concept started. I stress that even though we will be more lax in terms of how we moderate this thread it is not a free for all so keep it classy.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Pablo5 said:


> *You do realize that they were up on the Suns 3-1 *right? So when you say almost that's bullshit. They choked and he quit on his team. Check the tape fella


I don't need to watch the tape, I'm a Suns fan I watched every second of that series. Like you said they were up 3-1 on the #1 seed in the West, I wonder how they got there.... probably Kwame Brown and Luke Walton. Definitely couldn't of been Kobe.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Bogg said:


> Well, 11 in LA.


sad


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## Basel

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



l0st1 said:


> I don't need to watch the tape, I'm a Suns fan I watched every second of that series. Like you said they were up 3-1 on the #1 seed in the West, I wonder how they got there.... probably Kwame Brown and Luke Walton. Definitely couldn't of been Kobe.


#2 seed. I still ****ing hate Tim Thomas.


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## 77AJ

Most of LeBron James career achievements are just gas. LeBron youngest to... LeBron youngest to.. LeBron youngest to....

Nothing but hot air to feed his ego, and to manipulate the minds of young people. The fact remains now, and it's never going to change in my book, and that is Kobe Bryant is 10x the basketball player that LeBron James will ever be. 

Comparing Kobe to Bron in an actual game setting, in an actual vs.situation. Kobe brings war. Bron Bron is going to get locked up by Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green. 

Kobe Bryant > LeBron James. I don't care if Kobe is 50 years old, he will still punish baby bron bron on the court, after all Bron is the youngest ...

People talk about Kobe quitting. Bron quit on his Cavs, after Delonte West banged his mama. Bron faked an elbow injury when the Celtics kicked the snot out of his teams and bron played poorly. Yet the following game Bron was fine, and never had any kind of procedure done to heal the "injury".

Bron quit so hard, he left the Cleveland Cavs high and dry, to join force with a top 5 player in D Wade, and a top 15 player in Chris Bosh.

Lastly Bron boy on them PEDS.
rant over.


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## l0st1

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Basel said:


> #2 seed. I still ****ing hate Tim Thomas.


That's right it was the year before we were the 1st seed, and JJ broke his face. 


You should hate your team for not getting a simple defensive rebound. I know I do on that Ron Artest offensive rebound.


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## Mamba v2.0

If you hate Kobe soo much and are convinced he has no skill, just watch this video. When people say your the most fundamentally sound basketball player of all-time, you got something.


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## doctordrizzay

People still think Kobe is good?

the shithead is in his 18th year with only 1 MVP and 2 Finals MVP.

Compare that to the greats? ****ing pathetic.


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## Mamba v2.0

Kobe has set the standard and is the only true shooting guard left. I can make an arguement for James Harden, but hes not even close to Kobe's level and never will be. He has set the bar for greatness and other players will be compared to him, just like other players were compared to Michael, they will be compared to Kobe. I think Durant is more on Kobe's level than Lebron is. Point being, MJ and Kobe, are on a whole different level than Lebron. Lebron's will to win and loyalty arent there, while Kobe and Michael were very loyal, and also want to win over anything, and they will do anything they have to do. ANd the comparisons between the teams Kobe had after Shaq left and the teams Lebron had, unfair. Shit, Lebron had Antawn Jamison putting up 20 and 10 and maurice Williams. Kobe didnt have a point guard. He had Odom. The comprisons arent fair, especially being both teams are in different confrences. The east was weak, the west was at the peak of their powers with every game of the year being important. I see Drdizzay has nothing left to say. Kobe has stayed in LA and dealt with the hard times and has only missed the playoffs a couple times in bis career. If you dont have the will to win and the DESIRE to win, you wont be great. Kobe has never had the talent Lebron has, ever. He had shaq and Glen RIce, but rice was over the hill at that point too. Kobe is a warrior and Lebron would get KIA if he played Kobe in the finals.


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## Mamba v2.0

I'm rooting for Kevin Durant to take the throne from Kobe also.


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## doctordrizzay

http://thesportingtruth.com/?p=2035


"KOBE BRYANT IS STILL ONE OF THE MOST OVERRATED PLAYERS IN NBA HISTORY"

As I sat there watching Kobe Bryant win his first championship without Shaq, I felt a sudden sadness. A sadness, that the game of basketball doesn’t usually cause.
It wasn’t the same sadness you get when your favorite team loses, but it was the type of sadness you get when you realize that justice isn’t going to be served.
As I watched Mark Jackson and Jeff Van Gundy at the end of the game infer that arguing about who is better between Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan is a legitimate argument, that sadness grew even more.
It was obvious due to the talent the Lakers had that sooner or later Kobe would get his ring without Shaq, and I knew the aftermath that would occur. Since the NBA Finals, the Kobe-Jordan comparisons have not stopped, and let me tell everyone, it’s only going to get worse.
When I finally realized the game was out of reach, I went to my room sat down in utter silence and realized that the history of basketball had been changed.
Well The Kobe Bryant we see today is a much better player than Kobe Bryant who was on the Lakers during Shaq’s heydays.
Now that Kobe has won this title, people will forget this, and he may very well be in the mind of these so called “experts” such as Mark Jackson and Jeff Van Gundy elevated himself to one of the top five players of all time, if not higher.
He now has four titles, and because of his title without Shaq, Shaq’s legacy will only diminish and Bryant’s will grow as people start to forget who really led the Lakers to those first three titles.
Before I get into the details of why Kobe Bryant’s legacy should not be defined by this title, let me answer this one question first.
As I was reading an article about Kobe and Shaq, a question arose in the commentary.
“Why is it that no one questions the validity of the rings won by other stars that played with stars” (Besides Kobe)
The answer I read by, Michael T. Penn, could not have been any better. NBA betting lines.
“I think it is because most great second options aren’t hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread like Kobe is. A lot of people love Kobe so much they want to talk about his three championships without even mentioning Shaq. That in turn leads others without the rose colored specs on to say ‘what? those were Shaq’s teams!’ That’s really all you’re looking at here.
It’s kind of like if someone were to turn around and say ‘Scottie Pippen is the best player ever because he won 6 rings’. Of course the rebuttal would be ‘Sorry but Scottie was second banana to Jordan, those were Jordan’s teams’. Then someone such as yourself may write an article about how even though Jordan was the man, Scottie was still a star. Like that clears up the issue.
Kobe was of course a great second option on those teams! The problem arises when people try to use those three rings as part of an argument to say Kobe is a better individual player than Lebron James or that he’s the greatest player not named Mike or other such over the top declarations of his unstoppableness”
On the next few pages, I’m going tell you exactly how a man with four NBA rings, who at times can be unstoppable, can really be considered overrated?To me Kobe Bryant has been overrated since he first entered the league.
When he first entered in 1997 towards the end of Michael Jordan’s career, the media and fans were looking for that next Michael Jordan. Kobe showed the flash and potential it could take to be the next one. He was immediately deemed the next Michael Jordan, a title that still sadly hasn’t faded away.
However, for you to truly understand why Kobe is overrated career wise, you have to realize what a person being overrated really means. Being overrated career wise, in a sense, means that a person’s career is perceived as being better than it really is. Down below I have listed the many reasons why Kobe Bryant has come to be overrated.
Before you read what I have to say, I just want to ask you one favor. Please read the rest of the article with an open mind, especially Lakers’ fans, or you will fail to see the truth.

Kobe Bryant Wasn’t As Big of a Factor As Perception Makes it Seem
Kobe Bryant, in reality, wasn’t as big as a factor with the Lakers during their championship runs as perception makes it seem.
If you took Shaq off the Lakers during their title runs, the Lakers wouldn’t be guaranteed to make the playoffs. When O’Neal was injured during his three peat, the Lakers had a regular-season record of 12-11 (.5217%).
When Kobe was injured, the Lakers regular season record was 25-7 (.78%). Interestingly, the Lakers’ entire regular-season record during their three-peats was 181-65 (.735%), which is a lower record than when Kobe wasn’t playing. The Lakers therefore actually had a better record when Kobe wasn’t playing.
But how could this be possible? Well as a big Lakers’ fan during their championship runs, I watched the games very closely. One thing I will tell you is that the team was at its best when the team played through Shaq.
The Lakers were most dangerous when the Lakers would play through Shaq, wait for him to get double teamed, and have players such as Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Kobe Bryant and Derek Fisher spot up for the open shot, or cut in the lane.
However, the Lakers often failed to play through Shaq enough, and it would cost them games sometimes. However, never was this more obvious than at times when Kobe would try to steal the show.
A young immature Kobe Bryant would constantly take difficult contested shots, instead of just playing through Shaq, then cutting into lane or spotting up for that open shot.
I‘ll admit that when Kobe Bryant was playing through Shaq, he was a great asset to have. Unfortunately for all the times he was an asset, he was also a cancer when he tried to be the “man”.
The Lakers’ record without Kobe and without Shaq is not a stat many people know of, as I couldn’t find it anywhere. I personally had to look at every game by game during the Lakers’ championship runs to find those stats out.
As I said earlier, I watched the Lakers very closely. One thing I noticed was that when Shaq was on the bench, the team frankly was just a mediocre team.
I also noticed that when Kobe was on the bench, the team was just as good without him. I therefore decided to do the research and find out if this was true or not.
Not coincidentally, the records I found proved my theory to be correct. As I showed earlier, the Lakers became a sub .500 team without Shaq, but had a better record without Kobe.
Bryant to me is one of the luckiest players of all time. Not many all time greats can say that they started their career playing with the best player in the NBA.
Every time Kobe looks at his first three rings, he should thank god everyday that he had the opportunity to play with Shaq. In reality the young Kobe Bryant who won three championships isn’t as good as the Kobe leading the Lakers right now.
The record books, unfortunately, will not have an asterisk that says “led by Shaq.” When Kobe is compared to the all time greats such as Michael Jordan, his first three championships to the naked eye will looks just as good as Michael Jordan’s first 3 championships.
If Kobe never played with Shaq, he likely would have one ring. Thus without most of his rings, Kobe wouldn’t be perceived to be the top five player of all time many perceive him to currently be.

*Kobe Bryant is One of The Most Under-Performing Finals Player Ever*
Kobe Bryant has shot 40.5 % or under in four out his six NBA Finals appearances (Around 36% in his first and 38% in his fourth appearance). How many all time greats have shot 40.5% or under once, let alone four times in the NBA Finals? Also keep in mind that in three of those four in which he shot that poorly, Shaq, not him, was the one being double teamed.
Kobe is perceived as one of the best clutch players of all time, yet on the biggest stage there is, Kobe consistently performs his worst.
In year 2000, during the regular season, Bryant averaged almost 29 points and five assists per game. How did these stats translate over to the NBA Finals? They lowered to 15 points and four assists per game.
Shaquille O’Neal, on the other hand, raised his scoring average, from 28 in the regular season to 38 in the finals.
In 2001, the Lakers once again won the NBA Finals. Kobe’s scoring average dropped in the clutch once again, forcing O’Neal to step up his scoring from 27 per game in the regular season to 33 in the finals.
In 2002, For the third straight year, Kobe’s scoring and assists declined in the series and O’Neal of course stepped it up in the finals.
Most greats like Shaq, Jordan and Duncan, all raised their level in the finals, but yet Kobe lowered his tremendously. Charles Barkley once said that stars are made in the regular season, but superstars are made in the playoffs.
Well, I would like to add on to that statement and say that stars are made in the regular season, superstars are made in the playoffs, but Legends are made in the NBA finals.
In his first three years, Kobe had the privilege of watching Shaq put up three of most dominant finals performances ever. In fact at the time of Shaq’s third championship, he was averaging the most points per game in NBA finals history. However, in Kobe’s last two NBA Finals, he cost his team the championship with his poor performances.
In the 2004 NBA Finals, Shaq averaged 26.6 points per game with a .631 field goal percentage, while Kobe Bryant averaged 22.6 points per game with a .381 field goal percentage.
However, the main reason Kobe cost the Lakers the title was that he out shot Shaq by nearly six shots despite Kobe shooting 38.1 %, while Shaq was shooting 63.1 %.
In that series, Kobe’s failure to play though Shaq hurt not only the team’s stats, but his own stats as well. Playing through Shaq more, would have helped his FGP and opened up more easy scoring opportunities.
Not to mention, logically, why should a player shooting with a much lower FGP average six more shots than a former three times finals MVP that was shooting a much higher percentage?
During the 2004 NBA Finals, Kobe decided that he was going to be the man, even if it cost the team. Not surprisingly, according to Phil Jackson‘s book “The Last Season: A Team in Search of Its Soul,” in Bryant’s exit interview with him Bryant said, “I’m tired of being a sidekick.” Shaq already had three Finals MVP’s and Kobe for once wanted that finals MVP.
Watch the tape of that series and you will see a mad man determined to be the “man,” despite the consequences the team would ultimately render.
In last year’s NBA finals against the Celtics with this time Kobe being the “man,” he again let his team down. Against the Celtics, he shot .405 from the field and averaged 3.83 turnovers a game. In fact, in three out of their four losses he shot under 35 % from the field.
Kobe all series seemed to start off playing well in the first quarter, and then fall off and never recover. Kobe is perceived to be the best closer in the game, but yet it seemed as though he often disappeared in the 4th quarters of last years finals.
In game four last year, Mark Jackson, a man who once said that Kobe Bryant will be better than Michael Jordan, even called out Kobe Bryant for not trying to take over the game in the 4th quarter.
I heard all of Kobe’s fans excuses last year. “His teammates didn’t show up,” “Kobe can’t be expected to do everything.” However, no matter what anyone wanted to say about Gasol, Odom, or any of the other Laker’s players, Kobe was the one who let his team down. If Kobe wants to take all the credit when his teams wins, he should also take all the credit when his team loses.
Now this year was easily Kobe’s best finals performance. Kobe led the team to the title and I can’t take any credit away from him. But even so, Kobe still underperformed in the NBA finals, as he shot 43 % from the field. If you at actually look at it, Kobe has had two good finals appearances out of six.
Although his numbers went down in the 2001 finals, he still played well as he shot .514 from the field. Then of course this year, despite Kobe’s FGP going down, Kobe led his team to a championship. Now two good finals out of six isn’t acceptable for a true all time great.
The true all time greats, like Jordan and Shaq, generally always showed up in the NBA finals, while Kobe has repeatedly failed to.

Kobe Is Still Compared To Michael Jordan
There are still people out there who claim that Kobe is as good as and or better than Jordan. I would dismiss these claims and not even mention it, except for the fact that there a large percentage of people who actually believe this.
Every time a Jordan Kobe debate starts there is always that one guy who claims that Kobe is better than Jordan. No matter what stats you pull out, that guy thinks he’s right and you’re wrong.
Now that Kobe has lead a team to a championship, this will only be more argued.
The Jordan – Kobe debate to me is one of the most lopsided sports debates that is frequently debated. If you look at it logically the question shouldn’t even be asked and on Page 3 I will show you why.
Michael Jordan	Kobe Bryant
16 seasons	13 seasons
6 Championships	4 Championships
6 Finals MVPs	1 Finals MVP
10 Scoring Titles	2 Scoring Titles
1 Defensive Player Of The Year	0 Defensive Player Of The Year
5 MVPs	1 MVP
Jordan has better career averages than Kobe in virtually every single category besides three point percentage
( Bryant: .341, Jordan: .327) and and FT % ( Bryant: .840, Jordan: .835). Kobe also has inferior playoff averages in virtually all statistics, and inferior career finals averages in virtually all statistics to Jordan. For those of who want to claim that Kobe’s stats are skewed because of his younger days from 18-21, (even though Jordan’s are too because of his Wizards days) look at this stat.
If you take an age by age comparison of Jordan and Kobe starting with the age of 22 to the age Kobe is now, Jordan has better stats in virtually every age by age category besides some years of free throw %, a couple years of BPG, some years of 3 point percentages, and the one year Kobe averaged 35.4 points per game.
Jordan also, besides free throw percentage (.868 to .857), has the higher single season high in every category. Plus Jordan never played with a player even close to an elite center, while Kobe has had Shaq and Gasol.

Kobe Bryant’s FGP Isn’t Up There With The All-Time Greats
One reason that goes under the radar for why Kobe Bryant is overrated is that his FGP is simply not up there with the greatest guards and small forwards of all time.
Kobe has a career average of a .455 FGP, while, obviously depending on your list, no other player generally considered one of top 20 players of all time has shot that poorly.
Julius Erving shot .506 , Magic Johnson shot .520, Oscar Robertson shot 485, Larry Bird shot .496, and Michael Jordan shot .497 for their career. Kobe has also shot worse than the two players playing today that will eventually make this list, if not for a drastic injury, Wade and LeBron.
LeBron has a career average of .471, which should go up as he gets older and Wade has a career average of .483. The main reason Kobe Bryant’s FGP is worse than Wade’s, Lebron’s, and Jordan’s, is that as good of player as Kobe is, he simply isn’t as good of an inside player as those players.
Kobe relies on his jumpshot more than these players and because of this his FGP is worse. This is especially noticeable when he plays against physical defenses, such as the Rockets this year or the Celtics last year.
Before game seven of the Rockets-Lakers series, ESPN showed that against the Rockets, only 21 percent of his shots were within five feet of the hoop. Now 21 percent just isn’t good enough, and that is one reason the undermanned Rockets took the Lakers to seven games.
As it often said, “you live by the jumpshot, you die by the jumpshot.” When Kobe isn’t driving the ball enough, this statement is never more true. Now Kobe is still a great inside player, but just read what his own coach Phil Jackson has said when comparing Kobe to Jordan in an interview in 2008.
“There are somethings that Michael Jordan had, that Kobe Bryant doesn’t have. He has a bigger body, He’s stronger. Kobe’s strong. He ( Jordan) had these incredible hands. Those hands were million dollar hands, where he could do so many things with it. Besides being fouled and still making baskets-Taking the ball to the basket and getting hit and not losing control of the basketball-Being able to pick the ball of the dribble.Those are just things that physically are irreplaceable….When you look at Michael, he shot 49, 50 %, and Kobe just hasn’t been able to do that. There’s a big difference when you compare those two. The shooting percentages were quite a bit different.”
Kobe’s Team Wins When He Doesn’t Shoot Too much.
If you were watching the pregame show before game seven of the Rockets-Lakers game, you would recall that Jon Barry showed a statistic that when Kobe Bryant shoots less than 21 shots, the Lakers were 39-3.
Up to that point he had taken 150 shots total in the previous 6 games against the Rockets. Now, can you remember there being a stat like that for a player considered as great as Kobe?
Is there a stat like that for Jordan? LeBron? Wade? Well, of course the answer is no. Not to the surprise of me and Jon Barry, the Lakers beat the Rockets in game seven with Kobe only scoring 15 points.
Kobe Doesn’t Have Any “Amazing Moments”
Kobe is consider one of the clutchest players in history but yet I can’t recall him having any meaningful amazing game winners. Now Kobe has had some winning go ahead baskets in the playoffs, but he has never had one of those “Jordanesque” moment that you can replay in your head over and over again.
If you have been watching a lot of NBA games this year, you would have noticed those amazing NBA moments commercials. Well the one Kobe Bryant moment that they keep showing over again is his game winning shot against the Suns a few years ago in the first round. Here’s my problem with it. The Lakers lost the series!
Is that really the best Kobe moment that they could find. Well, sadly it could be. On the other hand, I can point out to a few plays that LeBron James has made in the playoffs in his career, that would have been better amazing moments, and sadly he is much younger than Kobe.
In reality, during the Lakers’ championship run, it was Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Brian Shaw, and the roles players who had those amazing moments.
Once again in game four in the finals this year, it was Fisher, not Kobe who had that amazing moment.
In that game, I saw an interesting stat that tells it all. The thee players with the most three pointers in NBA Finals history are Michael Jordan, Kobe’s current teammate Derek Fisher, and his ex-teammate Robert Horry.
Kobe Simply Doesn’t Have The leadership Skills Required To Be One of The Greatest Ever.
There are just something’s you can’t teach. Leadership skills are one of those.
As talented as Kobe is, he simply isn’t as good of a leaders as most of the all time greats. As I was watching ESPN a few weeks back, I heard a quote similar to this that simply said it all. LeBron’s teammates want to play for him, while Kobe’s teammates don’t seem to want to.
While Lebron gets the most out of his less talented Cavaliers teammates, Kobe doesn’t seem get the most out of his much more talented teammates. Granted the Lakers won the title, there were many times when they underperformed. I generally help prove that Kobe isn’t a very good leader by showing an excerpt from Curt Schilling’s post on his official blog, 38pitches.com, after Game Two of the NBA Finals last year.
I, myself, can say what I want about Kobe being a leader from watching him on TV, but in reality I don’t have the first hand experience for you to believe what I have to say. The reason I find Schilling’s post so informing is that it’s not often you get to read such a controversial post from an objective well respected athlete about a first hand experience he had. Here is the excerpt from Schilling’s blog.
“From the first tip until about 4 minutes left in the game I saw and heard this guy bitch at his teammates. Every TO he came to the bench pissed, and a few of them he went to other guys and yelled about something they weren’t doing, or something they did wrong. No dialog about “hey let’s go, let’s get after it” or whatever. He spent the better part of 3.5 quarters pissed off and ranting at the non-execution or lack of, of his team. Then when they made what almost was a historic run in the 4th, during a TO, he got down on the floor and basically said ‘Let’s f’ing go, right now, right here” or something to that affect. . . . But as a fan I was watching the whole thing, Kobe, his teammates and then the after effects of conversations. He’d yell at someone, make a point, or send a message, turn and walk away, and more than once the person on the other end would roll eyes or give a ‘whatever dude’ look.
Now it’s very important to realize again what overrated means. Like I said before, Overrated means that people perceive you to be better than you are. If you talk to the average NBA fan and even some of the so called “experts” as well, many of them will believe things that simply are illogical.
There are those people who believe Kobe is as good or better than Jordan. There is an also even higher percentage of people who believe that Kobe led the Lakers to the title and not Shaq, or that they both had equal roles.
There are also people who believe that career wise, Kobe, a man with one finals MVP, is better career wise than three times finals MVP’s Shaq and Tim Duncan, and other all time greats. Kobe hasn’t done enough yet to prove that he belongs in that same company yet.
Right now as it stands Kobe has led one incredibly talented team to a championship.
Therefore, before we put him up there with Chamberlain, Shaq, Jordan, and the rest of those guys, let’s see what he does in the next few years.


----------



## doctordrizzay




----------



## doctordrizzay

Educate yourself.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

Christ...i knew i shouldnt have clicked this thread. Im gonna go take a shower now.


----------



## 23isback

Basically a Mamba vs Drizzay thread.


----------



## doctordrizzay

No it's a Drizzay teaching Mambo actual basketball facts. 

His comebacks are highlight videos of Kobe making shots.


----------



## MemphisX

roux said:


> For a number of years threads about these guys have been made and sidetracked over and over again. The BBF staff has been overrun with complaints about trolling when these threads inevitably spiral out of control. This ends today. This thread is going to be the only home for these arguements from now on. There will be no forum disruption or baiting infractions handed out but any new threads that are centric on this never ending arguement will either be closed or merged at the staffs discretion. I will start by merging in the Expectations for Kobe thread to get this new concept started. I stress that even though we will be more lax in terms of how we moderate this thread it is not a free for all so keep it classy.


Funny stuff...BBF has moderated itself into obscurity.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*

Lebron?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

77AJ said:


> Most of LeBron James career achievements are just gas. LeBron youngest to... LeBron youngest to.. LeBron youngest to....
> 
> Nothing but hot air to feed his ego, and to manipulate the minds of young people. The fact remains now, and it's never going to change in my book, and that is Kobe Bryant is 10x the basketball player that LeBron James will ever be.
> 
> Comparing Kobe to Bron in an actual game setting, in an actual vs.situation. Kobe brings war. Bron Bron is going to get locked up by Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green.
> 
> Kobe Bryant > LeBron James. I don't care if Kobe is 50 years old, he will still punish baby bron bron on the court, after all Bron is the youngest ...
> 
> People talk about Kobe quitting. Bron quit on his Cavs, after Delonte West banged his mama. Bron faked an elbow injury when the Celtics kicked the snot out of his teams and bron played poorly. Yet the following game Bron was fine, and never had any kind of procedure done to heal the "injury".
> 
> Bron quit so hard, he left the Cleveland Cavs high and dry, to join force with a top 5 player in D Wade, and a top 15 player in Chris Bosh.
> 
> Lastly Bron boy on them PEDS.
> rant over.


LeBron James or Chris Paul?


----------



## LeGoat06

LeBron


----------



## Pablo5

Its hilarious to read that article then actually look back. LA fans love throwing Kobe name out there for the 5 ships, but 3 of those ships he played "the Robin". 

Bron is the best all-around basketball player in the last 8 seasons, and when he retire he will be the GOAT....


----------



## LeGoat06

To me it always seems like people either severely overrate Kobe or severely underrate Kobe. He's a top 15 player of all time. Case closed. Wether you think LeBron is better already right now is your opinion. But LeBron is just reaching his prime. He is getting better. I think almost everyone knows LeBron will go down as better than Kobe and probably a top 5 maybe top 3 player. If you think Kobe is top 5 I consider that severely overrated. But if you think Kobe's legacy right now is better than LeBrons I have no problem with that. I have Bron at 10 on my greatest list and Kobe at 12 so it's close as of now in my eyes.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

77AJ said:


> Most of LeBron James career achievements are just gas. LeBron youngest to... LeBron youngest to.. LeBron youngest to....
> 
> Nothing but hot air to feed his ego, and to manipulate the minds of young people. The fact remains now, and it's never going to change in my book, and that is Kobe Bryant is 10x the basketball player that LeBron James will ever be.
> 
> Comparing Kobe to Bron in an actual game setting, in an actual vs.situation. Kobe brings war. Bron Bron is going to get locked up by Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green.
> 
> Kobe Bryant > LeBron James. I don't care if Kobe is 50 years old, he will still punish baby bron bron on the court, after all Bron is the youngest ...
> 
> People talk about Kobe quitting. Bron quit on his Cavs, after Delonte West banged his mama. Bron faked an elbow injury when the Celtics kicked the snot out of his teams and bron played poorly. Yet the following game Bron was fine, and never had any kind of procedure done to heal the "injury".
> 
> Bron quit so hard, he left the Cleveland Cavs high and dry, to join force with a top 5 player in D Wade, and a top 15 player in Chris Bosh.
> 
> Lastly Bron boy on them PEDS.
> rant over.


This post is full of fail, not to mention all of your points are easily counterable.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Kobe Bryant - Greatness Personified - YouTube
> 
> Y'all are idiots. I never said I dont have respect for Lebron, I do to an extent. But Kobe is the most complete offensive player this game has ever seen. Like i said, Jordan and Kobe are alike. Lebron is more like Magic. But Lebron aint better than Magic, no way. Jordan, if he was still in the league today, would easily average 40ppg. No more hand checking on the perimeter. Hed easily win mvp 13 times in a row if he was still around. Point is, until Lebron accomplishes what Kobe has, theres absolutely no comparison.


Your agenda is getting old here. Forget the fact you're blatantly ignoring the things LeBron does better than Kobe, you're completely disregarding the fact that LeBron has already accomplished what Kobe has. And i love how you don't even mention what it was Kobe accomplished.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Expectations for Kobe Bryant*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Your agenda is getting old here. Forget the fact you're blatantly ignoring the things LeBron does better than Kobe, you're completely disregarding the fact that LeBron has already accomplished what Kobe has. And i love how you don't even mention what it was Kobe accomplished.


He just trys to posts Kobe Highlight films to prove his arguments.


----------



## e-monk

I like the fact that this tiresome nonsense has been segregated - it makes it easier to ignore


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*

Good to see the board was smarter back then and mostly voted McGrady as the better player.


----------



## doctordrizzay

Mamba2.0

"Kobe is the best!!! Why? LOOK AT THIS VIDEO OF HIM MAKING SHOTS!"


----------



## e-monk

on cue


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*



doctordrizzay said:


> *Good to see the board was smarter back then *and mostly voted McGrady as the better player.


You not being around helped.


----------



## Diable

Someone go find that obnoxious Jordan homer, he's got to get in on this...What was his nick? Jordan23Forever or something? Maybe if he breaks me off some cash I'll stick up for him in here.


----------



## SpiderInThePastaBowl

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*


----------



## doctordrizzay




----------



## LeGoat06

Best pic ever ^


----------



## doctordrizzay

Let's end this once and for all. 

Head 2 Head career matches.

Kobe is 6-13 against Lebron with worse stats. He never was and never will be on Lebron's level. 


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=bryanko01


----------



## RollWithEm

doctordrizzay said:


> Let's end this once and for all.


It will never end! NEVER I tell you!


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*

precisely - moderators please


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*



e-monk said:


> precisely - moderators please


This is what the thread is for.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Official: Kobe v.s. T-Mac (Merged)*



e-monk said:


> precisely - moderators please


It is done.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

I don't think I will be able to make it through another semester of college after seeing the comments in this thread. Too many brain cells were lost in battle despite putting up a hard fight.


----------



## RollWithEm

The more completely inane threads I find to merge into this one, the more I realize that Ballscientist starts a lot of the crap that other posters get sucked into and eventually blamed for.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

Someone said Kobe is a glorified Jerry Stackhouse...Wtf? Stackhouse was the biggest underachiever next to Vince Carter and Track mcgrady. Not saying they werent good players, bit they didnt want it enough. His scoring, his FG%, all inconsistent. Kobe on the other hand, has always been around 45% shooting and 25 ppg. Stackhouse had one good year in Detroit where he averaged 29 ppg. He fell off after that, due to injury I think. ANyways, these comparisons really arent fair. Ill always say it: Kobe is the closest thing to MJ we will EVER see. Lebron is more like Magic. But the difference between these 3 players, is that MJ and Kobe will do anythin g to get a W. I still see Lebron fade away in the fourth quarter. Jordan never did that, and Kobe will rarely disappear when the lakers need a quick bucket. A perfect example were the games Miami lost in the finals because Lebron either decided to call it quits early, or he was completly shut down by Leonard. You think Kobe or MJ would do that? Hell no. They would find a way. Instead, Lebron just gives up. He doesnt want it enough, he doesnt want to be a legend. His numbers are always through the roof, but great players are always known to get it done it the fourth quarter. And their desire to win...Kevin Durant has been clutch since he was in seattle! Some pplayers just arent meant to be legendary.


----------



## Basel

Kobe > 

Don't hate.


----------



## R-Star

I'm not making a decision until more video's of Kobe and Lebron dunking on people are posted.

That is quite clearly the best way to judge who's the best.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

doctordrizzay said:


> No it's a Drizzay teaching Mambo actual basketball facts.
> 
> His comebacks are highlight videos of Kobe making shots.


No, its the fact that you hate Kobe so much and you claim he has never been very good. You ignoring that hes a top ten player of all-time is ignorance. When you have people that played aganist Jordan saying Kobe is the most fundamentally sound player of all-time, are they just blowing smoke up peoples as**s? Your very ignorant. I think you just hate the lakers. No, Kobe is not known for his passing. That is not his mentality, he is a scorer. But Kobe hasn't had the supporting cast's like Lebron did in the past. Maurice Williams, Varejo and Antawn Jamison arent good role players???? Shit his teams got dookied on by the old geezer celtics and he just faded away and gave up on his team and bailed because he cant do it without two other top 15 players. Ray Allen bailed Lebron out in the finals when he hit that big three. If Ray Allen hadn't have done that, the spurs would have won. Where the hell was Lebron when Miami needed him? I also remember you mentioning something about Kobe no tplaying in the playoffs. Are you a jackass? he tore his Achilles tendon, an injury you cant just walk off. Lebron is a crybaby and he flops constantly. Kobe may get pissed when he gets fouled, but he doesnt sprint all the way to the other side of the court when he doesnt get his way. The fact is, Lebron is constantly bailed out by other players. 
What makes me sick, is that NOBODY will acknowledge the fact that the thunder got screwed in the finals last year, espically you lebron and heat supporters. As a lakers fan, I am man enough to admit the refs screwed the kings out of a finals. What a pathetic example of the most selfish, disgusting, biggest bandwagoners in the NBA, which is the Heat fans. You all forgot about Wade, he wins more games than lebron. I really dont care what drdizzay has to say about Kobe. Ive been watch Kobe play since his 3rd season and I have watched him take over in the fourth quarter and absolutely tear defenses apart and make the game winning shot. Hes not afraid. James doesnt have the mentality of a winner, he has to have Wade and Ray Allen do it for him.


----------



## Basel

R-Star said:


> I'm not making a decision until more video's of Kobe and Lebron dunking on people are posted.
> 
> That is quite clearly the best way to judge who's the best.


Or you could just listen to me, old man.


----------



## R-Star

R-Star doesn't listen to anyone. Not even himself.


----------



## BobStackhouse42

*Re: LeBron James = Kobe Bryant*

This thread makes me want to torture an antelope.


----------



## Basel

R-Star said:


> R-Star doesn't listen to anyone. Not even himself.


Don't feel bad. Nobody listens to R-Star.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

I'll just have fun with this since I have nothing to do before the semester starts.



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Ill always say it: Kobe is the closest thing to MJ we will EVER see. Lebron is more like Magic. But the difference between these 3 players, is that MJ and Kobe will do anythin g to get a W. I still see Lebron fade away in the fourth quarter.


You just got done claiming he's more like Magic and yet you still say Lebron fades away in the 4th? How many games have you watched Lebron play before?



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Jordan never did that, and Kobe will rarely disappear when the lakers need a quick bucket. A perfect example were the games Miami lost in the finals because Lebron either decided to call it quits early, or he was completly shut down by Leonard.


Except Lebron has never called it quits at any point during his run in Miami nor was he ever "shut down" by Leonard. There's a huge difference between being shut down by someone and having your jumper be horribly off. Leonard left Lebron open an awful lot because he dared him to shoot the ball. That isn't shutting someone down. 



Mamba v2.0 said:


> You think Kobe or MJ would do that? Hell no. They would find a way.


So explain the 2004 Finals where Kobe actually WAS shut down by Prince. Please, I'll wait.



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Instead, Lebron just gives up. He doesnt want it enough, he doesnt want to be a legend.


This is just stupid. There is literally proof right in front of your face that completely disproves this entire theory. Lebron James left his home state, left the team he always wanted to play for his entire life, a team he envisioned himself winning a title for and finally getting Cleveland that championship they wanted. We saw him score 25 straight points against the Pistons in the 2007 playoffs because he knew he was the only one that could score on his team, we saw him average above 30 points against the Magic in 2009. As for his time in Miami? He accepted the fact that he had to take over as the team leader and be more selfish than normal in order for his team to win. 

You're telling me after all of this that Lebron doesn't want it enough? 



Mamba v2.0 said:


> His numbers are always through the roof, but great players are always known to get it done it the fourth quarter.


Nice fan made theory you got going there. 



Mamba v2.0 said:


> And their desire to win...Kevin Durant has been clutch since he was in seattle! Some pplayers just arent meant to be legendary.
> +


But here's the thing, Lebron already is legendary. He has done things that no other players in the history of the game have ever done. He is on pace to break Kareem's scoring record, assuming no big injuries occur, in spite of the fact that he isn't a score first player. He has been in his prime for about a year now and he's already a 4x MVP, a 2x NBA Champion/Finals MVP/All Star MVP. 

He is a legend, and he will go down as a top 5 player no doubt if he continues to play at this rate. Only the average biased anti Lebron mark can deny it.


----------



## R-Star

Says the guy quoting me.


----------



## Mamba v2.0

XxIrvingxX said:


> I'll just have fun with this since I have nothing to do before the semester starts.
> 
> 
> 
> You just got done claiming he's more like Magic and yet you still say Lebron fades away in the 4th? How many games have you watched Lebron play before?
> 
> 
> 
> Except Lebron has never called it quits at any point during his run in Miami nor was he ever "shut down" by Leonard. There's a huge difference between being shut down by someone and having your jumper be horribly off. Leonard left Lebron open an awful lot because he dared him to shoot the ball. That isn't shutting someone down.
> 
> 
> 
> So explain the 2004 Finals where Kobe actually WAS shut down by Prince. Please, I'll wait.
> 
> 
> 
> This is just stupid. There is literally proof right in front of your face that completely disproves this entire theory. Lebron James left his home state, left the team he always wanted to play for his entire life, a team he envisioned himself winning a title for and finally getting Cleveland that championship they wanted. We saw him score 25 straight points against the Pistons in the 2007 playoffs because he knew he was the only one that could score on his team, we saw him average above 30 points against the Magic in 2009. As for his time in Miami? He accepted the fact that he had to take over as the team leader and be more selfish than normal in order for his team to win.
> 
> You're telling me after all of this that Lebron doesn't want it enough?
> 
> 
> 
> Nice fan made theory you got going there.
> 
> 
> 
> But here's the thing, Lebron already is legendary. He has done things that no other players in the history of the game have ever done. He is on pace to break Kareem's scoring record, assuming no big injuries occur, in spite of the fact that he isn't a score first player. He has been in his prime for about a year now and he's already a 4x MVP, a 2x NBA Champion/Finals MVP/All Star MVP.
> 
> He is a legend, and he will go down as a top 5 player no doubt if he continues to play at this rate. Only the average biased anti Lebron mark can deny it.


So, nothing I said about great players get it done in the 4th quarter, its well known Larry, Magic, Michael, Kobe, Dirk, DWYANE WADE, Reggie Miller, Kevin Durant (Hes legandary just because of his efficency and I think Durant will break Kareems record before Lebron does) all get it done in he 4th quarter. Did you watch Lebrons pathetic performance in the 2011 nba finals? Tayshaun Prince was preimer perimeter defender in his prim ebefore he had back problems. He is also 6'9 with a wingspan of 7+ feet. Kobe is 6'6. Try shooting over those monkey arms.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Mamba v2.0 said:


> So, nothing I said about great players get it done in the 4th quarter, its well known Larry, Magic, Michael, Kobe, Dirk, DWYANE WADE, Reggie Miller, Kevin Durant (Hes legandary just because of his efficency and I think Durant will break Kareems record before Lebron does) all get it done in he 4th quarter.


And just like all of those players, Lebron has had his fair share of outstanding fourth quarter performances, and I'll go as far as saying that his 25 straight point performance beats any of the fourth quarter/overtime performances any of those people you mentioned did. Go ahead, try to find better performances than that one. 



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Did you watch Lebrons pathetic performance in the 2011 nba finals?


Yes I did. And there's two sides to it. On one side you had Lebron who's jumper was off, barely had the ball and didn't really try attacking that much. On the other side, you had a terrific zone defense set up by Dallas that was able to limit Lebron's chances of being able to do anything in the paint. It doesn't surprise me that you brought it up, it's basically the only argument anti Lebron fans can think of and yet they don't even realize it actually makes them look even more clueless. 



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Tayshaun Prince was preimer perimeter defender in his prim ebefore he had back problems. He is also 6'9 with a wingspan of 7+ feet. Kobe is 6'6. Try shooting over those monkey arms.


So because someone is taller than Kobe, that means Kobe can not only have a piss poor performance, but has the right to shoot away his teams chances of winning the series? I would much rather have someone who disappears in the fourth quarter than someone who just continues to shoot away with no intent or purpose other than to try to make up for his failures from earlier in the game. If you're telling me that's what you want for your team, then I will start banging my head against the wall repeatedly so that I can become simple minded enough to understand that logic.


----------



## doctordrizzay

Kobe's game 7 against the celtics 2010

6-24. 

And his team still won because his teammates are amazing.


----------



## doctordrizzay

Also can't forget about the Lakers cheating.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

doctordrizzay said:


> Also can't forget about the Lakers cheating.
> 
> The Greatest Tragedy in Sports part 6 - YouTube


So i guess the referees making a bunch of horrible calls means it was the Lakers who were cheating...makes sense.


----------



## LeGoat06

Irving is killing it in this thread. I don't think I need to even make any statements he's doing so well.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

So because I want something to entertain myself, I'll go at another post. Hopefully he actually responds so I can get more laughs out of it (don't care if it's long, get over it). 



77AJ said:


> Most of LeBron James career achievements are just gas. LeBron youngest to... LeBron youngest to.. LeBron youngest to....


You're saying this like it's a bad thing, and like it isn't anything special. In his second year in the league, Lebron averaged 27 points per game. The next season? He averaged 31 points per game (he also won the all star MVP award that year and came in second place in the MVP voting). This is a 20 year old we are talking about here. So those youngest to achievements are not just "gas", they are the result of an outstanding talent who accomplished those feats because he is simply that damn good. 



77AJ said:


> Nothing but hot air to feed his ego, and to manipulate the minds of young people. The fact remains now, and it's never going to change in my book, and that is Kobe Bryant is 10x the basketball player that LeBron James will ever be.


In what regard? Lebron is clearly the better passer, he is obviously the better rebounder (don't give me the he's taller and is stronger bs, it takes more than that to rebound), at this point in his career he is a better defender than Kobe ever was, and his three point percentage this past season was higher than Kobe's was at any point in his career. So what ever your book says, they aren't facts. Because the fact is that, right now, Lebron James is better than Kobe Bryant ever was at any point in his career, and you cannot deny that. 



77AJ said:


> Comparing Kobe to Bron in an actual game setting, in an actual vs.situation. Kobe brings war. Bron Bron is going to get locked up by Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green.


You mean besides the fact that Kobe actually did get locked up by T. Prince in 2004? 

And just like Mamba, you make the mistake of saying that Lebron was locked up by Leonard and Green. Leonard and Green both sat back and dared Lebron to shoot the jumper. That isn't locking someone up. As soon as Lebron's jumper started finding the net again, they couldn't stop him. So then they knew they had to play him up close, and just like that he was able to drive to the basket with ease. 



77AJ said:


> Kobe Bryant > LeBron James. I don't care if Kobe is 50 years old, he will still punish baby bron bron on the court, after all Bron is the youngest ...


I love how you say this even though if we were to compare 28 year old Lebron to 28 year old Kobe, Lebron still clearly wins. 



77AJ said:


> People talk about Kobe quitting. Bron quit on his Cavs, after Delonte West banged his mama. Bron faked an elbow injury when the Celtics kicked the snot out of his teams and bron played poorly. Yet the following game Bron was fine, and never had any kind of procedure done to heal the "injury".


I don't even know where to begin with this statement. First off, the West banging Lebron's mom stuff needs to stop already. It wasn't funny then and it isn't funny now. It was clearly never true to begin with. Second, as pointed out by Hobojoe, I would much rather have someone quit out on the team than have someone shoot away the teams chances of winning like Kobe has done in the past. 

Now onto the elbow injury. Do you even know anything at all about it? You're claiming he faked it when the Celtics beat the Cavs right? Are you even aware that the elbow injury first occurred during the Bulls/Cavaliers playoff series? This was all before the Cavaliers went on to face the Celtics in the second round. Then you go onto claim there was never any kind of procedure done to heal the injury, once again showing you have no idea what you're talking about, which doesn't surprise me to the least bit. 

http://www.sbnation.com/2010/4/29/2...es-okay-and-hell-play-but-whats-an/in/1214776 



77AJ said:


> Bron quit so hard, he left the Cleveland Cavs high and dry, to join force with a top 5 player in D Wade, and a top 15 player in Chris Bosh.


Oh please and you're telling me Kobe never thought about doing the same? What about in 2007 when Kobe demanded that the Lakers trade him after having another disappointing season? Your hypocrisy is getting really old. You're downgrading Lebron for things he did and yet you sit there and act like you don't know about the same exact things that Kobe did. It's pathetic. We already know you have a biased agenda against Lebron, so why should I take the things you say seriously? 

Lastly Bron boy on them PEDS.
rant over.[/QUOTE]


----------



## e-monk

youre impressed by a 20 year old's achievement? try racking 42-17 and playing all 5 positions in the deciding game of the finals - that's a pretty good achievement for a 20 year old - add being named finals MVP at age 20 as the cherry on top - so f-ing what Lebron was young


----------



## XxIrvingxX

e-monk said:


> youre impressed by a 20 year old's achievement? try racking 42-17 and playing all 5 positions in the deciding game of the finals - that's a pretty good achievement for a 20 year old - add being named finals MVP at age 20 as the cherry on top - so f-ing what Lebron was young


Never said I wasn't impressed by what Magic did. But you can't deny that what Lebron was able to do at age 20 was impressive.


----------



## Larry Legend

*Re: Kobe vs. Magic*



Luke said:


> Kobe's the third best perimeter player of all time behind Magic and Jordan. There's no disputing that at this point.





JerryWest said:


> Nah. He's still behind three Lakers, although he can still move up.
> 
> 1) Wilt
> 2) Magic
> 3) Jordan
> 4) Kareem
> 5) Duncan
> 6) Kobe
> 
> A little bit of overreaction on Wilbon's part, but media people always do this. I have Kobe at 6th all time too.





Tragedy said:


> I have Kobe around six all time.
> 
> MJ
> Wilt
> Kareem
> Russell
> Magic
> Kobe
> 
> At least i think that's where is career ends.


Sorry, but you didn`t saw Bird playing!
Bird was a basketball genius as Magic and made his teammates better as him am more than Kobe can, better leader & winner & clutcher (Bird couldn`t had bad final as Kobe had in 2005 or 25% from the field as Kobe had at game 7 in 2010 final and Kobe took much more bad decisions and bad shots in clutch time), better shooter from field & three & line, had much better passing skills that were remarkable as of Magic, better stealer.
Kobe is better personal defender but Bird is not less in team defense.

Comparing all the skills and abilities Bird was just a greater player and not only in the top ten ever but could be also in the top 5!


----------



## LeGoat06

Johnsons rookie performance in the finals at 20 has actually sadly become underrated over the years. That was the greatest performance in finals history for just 1 game.


----------



## GNG

XxIrvingxX said:


> First off, the West banging Lebron's mom stuff needs to stop already. It wasn't funny then and it isn't funny now. It was clearly never true to begin with.



It will ALWAYS be funny.


----------



## LeGoat06

I do laugh at some of the Delonte West stuff.


----------



## Pablo5

LeGoat06 said:


> I do laugh at some of the Delonte West stuff.


Laugh beccause? It wasnt funny at all. Let one of your friends go around the hood saying he boned your moms. Would that be funny still?


----------



## LeGoat06

Pablo5 said:


> Laugh beccause? It wasnt funny at all. Let one of your friends go around the hood saying he boned your moms. Would that be funny still?


I'm just saying some of the jokes are funny. I think the idea of it is dumb considering it isn't true at all. But if one of my friends comes up with a good mom joke I usually laugh lol even if it's directed at me. No biggie a jokes a joke


----------



## Luke

*Re: LeBron James = Kobe Bryant*

If you come into a thread with nothing but negative things to say about a player that is/will be a top ten player ever then you're a moron. This applies to Kobe, LeBron, and Jordan. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## 77AJ




----------



## LeGoat06

77AJ said:


> LeBron James picks his top 3 NBA players of all-time - YouTube


Are you gonna post this in every thread ? seems kinda trollish and stupid


----------



## LeGoat06

John Salley said Magic is greatest player ever and Jordan is top 5. Doesn't make it true


----------



## 77AJ

LeGoat06 said:


> Are you gonna post this in every thread ? seems kinda trollish and stupid


Will spell out the correlation. Jordan/Kobe/Bron thread. 

Bron says in August 2013 Jordan the greatest.

End thread/


----------



## LeGoat06

77AJ said:


> Will spell out the correlation. Jordan/Kobe/Bron thread.
> 
> Bron says in August 2013 Jordan the greatest.
> 
> End thread/


Lol end thread. LeBron's career ain't over and do you know how much hate he'd get if he said he was number 1 ? your a fkn troll


----------



## 77AJ

LeGoat06 said:


> Lol end thread. LeBron's career ain't over and do you know how much hate he'd get if he said he was number 1 ? your a fkn troll


But he didn't say it. Lets stop assuming, and insinuating things. 

Dude I'm not a troll. Look up the definition, I've been posting on this board about a thousand different basketball topics for years. 

Just because somebody doesn't like LeBron James. And posts a video of LeBron declaring his top three to ever play the game in its history. Doesn't make somebody a troll.


----------



## LeGoat06

77AJ said:


> But he didn't say it. Lets stop assuming, and insinuating things.
> 
> Dude I'm not a troll. Look up the definition, I've been posting on this board about a thousand different basketball topics for years.
> 
> Just because somebody doesn't like LeBron James. And posts a video of LeBron declaring his top three to ever play the game in its history. Doesn't make somebody a troll.


I didn't put LeBron in my top 3. And I won't until his career is completely over. which it is not which means you can't say he's a top 3 player of all time yet. When people say that they're insinuating that he will someday be GOAT not that he already is. I don't expect you to suck LeBrons dick or something. If you don't like him cool. But don't try and act like just because he said it makes in etched in stone that it's true. it's still an opinion. When his career is over than we'll see what he says. And I said your a troll because you went and posted the same video on every board lol but it's w/e bro no hard feelings i'll take the troll statement back


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Cinco de Mayo said:


> It will ALWAYS be funny.


If it was true then it would be funny. But it's just stupid.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Pretty sure the only reason he's posting the lebron video is because he knows he doesn't have an argument against the points I just made. Disappointing as it may be, I shouldn't be surprised by it.


----------



## Pablo5

77AJ said:


> Will spell out the correlation. Jordan/Kobe/Bron thread.
> 
> Bron says in August 2013 Jordan the greatest.
> 
> End thread/


and that suppose to mean what? IMO Bron is better than Kobe and MJ right now so does that mean the thread should be over?


----------



## GNG

XxIrvingxX said:


> If it was true then it would be funny. But it's just stupid.


You're stupid.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Cinco de Mayo said:


> You're stupid.


Really mods? Still haven't edited this out yet? How about some consistency here?


----------



## Hyperion

XxIrvingxX said:


> Really mods? Still haven't edited this out yet? How about some consistency here?


You do realize that he was facetiously acting like a 5 year old by taking your argument and using it against you right? It wasn't really offensive, just childish.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Hyperion said:


> You do realize that he was facetiously acting like a 5 year old by taking your argument and using it against you right? It wasn't really offensive, just childish.


You just literally described 90% of Mayo's arguments.


----------



## Jamel Irief

XxIrvingxX said:


> Really mods? Still haven't edited this out yet? How about some consistency here?


He is a mod


----------



## LeGoat06

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


----------



## R-Star

This thread is a free for all. Its where all you Lebrons and Kobes can argue over who has the smoother penis. 

No moderation. For many of you, its the only place you'll be able to post without getting an infraction at this point.


----------



## e-monk

please everyone understand, this thread is like Snake Plissken's New York - there is no law here and nor should there be (irving) - don't come in here if you're looking for civilized conversation - this is where we lock up all the animals


----------



## Hyperion

R-Star said:


> This thread is a free for all. Its where all you Lebrons and Kobes can argue over who has the smoother penis.
> 
> No moderation. For many of you, its the only place you'll be able to post without getting an infraction at this point.


I should give you an infraction for this... but much too lazy and if I start giving out infractions, how will I maintain my status as the cool mod?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Jamel Irief said:


> He is a mod


Barely.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

Why the **** do I continue to come in here? 

I'm gonna go sanitize my iPhone now.


----------



## LeGoat06

Whats worse ? Kobe lovers ? LeBron Lovers? MJ lovers ? or the haters that make fun of the Kobe/LBJ/MJ lovers ? I vote haters, like R-star talking shit and being annoying


----------



## doctordrizzay

Okay we can close this thread now. This is the only place to even think Kobe is clutch...Dude sucks...stats DONT lie.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Good lord I've seen republican debates with more logic than this.


----------



## Pablo5

XxIrvingxX said:


> Good lord I've seen republican debates with more logic than this.


That's a lie. Logic is that Kobe played Robin to Shaq during the first 3 championships, and Kobe fans look past that when they mention his 5 rings


----------



## Pablo5

doctordrizzay said:


> Okay we can close this thread now. This is the only place to even think Kobe is clutch...Dude sucks...stats DONT lie.


CLASSIC!!!!


----------



## LeGoat06

Lol KoMe got ruined in this thread


----------



## doctordrizzay




----------



## 77AJ

MJ picks Kobe over LeBron .. real recognize real .. 

Kobe shows the world in a one on one situation against LeBron why MJ picks Kobe over LeBron in regards to who the best.


----------



## 77AJ

Kobe Clutch > LeBron Clutch


----------



## LeGoat06

did you just post a video of a all star game lol


----------



## Hyperion

Don't know if posted yet, but though it was an interesting read

http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter


----------



## bircan

77AJ said:


> Kobe Clutch > LeBron Clutch
> 
> Kobe Bryant Incredible Game Tying + Game Winning Shots vs Portland - YouTube


This is one of my earliest memories when i first got into the NBA (03/04). Ridiculous.


----------



## 77AJ

bircan said:


> This is one of my earliest memories when i first got into the NBA (03/04). Ridiculous.


Yep tremendous difficulty on each of those three point shots. Both last seconds on the clock, defense draped all over Kobe, and dude drops them in nothing but net way behind the three point line, to tie and go into over time, and of course for the win. Incredibly clutch.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

77AJ said:


> MJ picks Kobe over LeBron .. real recognize real ..
> 
> Kobe shows the world in a one on one situation against LeBron why MJ picks Kobe over LeBron in regards to who the best.
> 
> Kobe Bryant blocks LeBron James twice in 2013 Allstar *MJ said it, Kobe Proves it, LeBron crying - YouTube


So are you ever going to respond to my points from earlier.


----------



## doctordrizzay

77AJ said:


> Kobe Clutch > LeBron Clutch
> 
> Kobe Bryant Incredible Game Tying + Game Winning Shots vs Portland - YouTube


Dude...you post video's

I post STATS. STATS DONT LIE. You can't say Kobe is better in the clutch when STATS DONT LIE. YOU CANT ARGUE THAT.


----------



## 77AJ

doctordrizzay said:


> Dude...you post video's
> 
> I post STATS. STATS DONT LIE. You can't say Kobe is better in the clutch when STATS DONT LIE. YOU CANT ARGUE THAT.


Read the article that was posted up above regarding clutch. Kobe > LeBron


----------



## 77AJ

XxIrvingxX said:


> So are you ever going to respond to my points from earlier.


What you responded to me with were opinions. What I pointed out were facts. 

So no I have no reason to respond to anything you said. You're entitled to your opinions. And I'm entitled to list facts. Game , set, match!


----------



## XxIrvingxX

77AJ said:


> What you responded to me with were opinions. What I pointed out were facts.
> 
> So no I have no reason to respond to anything you said. You're entitled to your opinions. And I'm entitled to list facts. Game , set, match!


This is why i don't take you seriously.

When you said Kobe is ten times the player LeBron was, that was an opinion. When i said LeBron wasn't locked up by Leonard and Kobe was locked up by Prince, that was a fact. Anyone who watched those games knows this. You made a claim that most of LeBron's record were a result of him being young and only because of that, which is obviously not true. So not only did you not post actual facts, but the ones you did post were clear and obvious lies. 

So please, grow a pair and respond to my points. If you don't, then you clearly have no argument against what i have to say. Hell, this is something you do all the time. When you have no argument, you just find a way to back out of it. Stop making excuses and prove you're not a troll.


----------



## thebasketballcure

*Kobe vs. Lebron FG %*

LeBron's FG% the last 6 seasons:


2007-08: 48.4%
2008-09: 48.9%
2009-10: 50.3%
2010-11: 51.0%
2011-12: 53.1%
2012-13: 56.5%​
That is truly amazing. Every season he is getting better. Do you think he will increase it next season?


Kobe's FG% the last 6 seasons:


2007-08: 48.4%
2008-09: 46.7%
2009-10: 45.6%
2010-11: 45.1.0%
2011-12: 43.0%
2012-13: 46.3%​

So those are actually some of Kobe's better percentage numbers over the entire course of his career. Pretty interesting if you ask me.

Augie Johnston


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Kobe vs. Lebron FG %*

in b4 the Kobetards


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Kobe vs. Lebron FG %*

Will shortly be merged.


----------



## RollWithEm

And there we go.


----------



## LeGoat06

Good work RWE


----------



## Pablo5

Where are the Kobe fans? Numbers dont Lie, lmao. The fact the he played Robin to Shaq is the reason he has 5 rings.


----------



## NK1990

Pablo5 said:


> Where are the Kobe fans? Numbers dont Lie, lmao. The fact the he played Robin to Shaq is the reason he has 5 rings.



Well to answer your question, the Kobe fans don't respond because they feel bad for the sad individuals who take the time out of their day to try get a rise out of someone for sheer enjoyment. As well as being tired of arguing with people who are hipocritical and never listen to the other side of the arguement. So that is why the kobe fans don't respond.


----------



## LeGoat06

NK1990 said:


> Well to answer your question, the Kobe fans don't respond because they feel bad for the sad individuals who take the time out of their day to try get a rise out of someone for sheer enjoyment. As well as being tired of arguing with people who are hipocritical and never listen to the other side of the arguement. So that is why the kobe fans don't respond.


We listen to your side of the argument, it just sucks because your wrong


----------



## Pablo5

NK1990 said:


> Well to answer your question, the Kobe fans don't respond because they feel bad for the sad individuals who take the time out of their day to try get a rise out of someone for sheer enjoyment. As well as being tired of arguing with people who are hipocritical and never listen to the other side of the arguement. So that is why the kobe fans don't respond.


Phil Jackson was quoted saying Kobe was tired of being the sidekick, but the typical LA fan will always believe different.


----------



## LeGoat06

Kobe fans don't look at numbers. They just spew Bullshit and then say were the irrational ones


----------



## Luke

*Re: LeBron James = Kobe Bryant*

Y'all need to get a hobby.

Of course Kobe was the robin to Shaquille. Does anyone dispute that? No one in the history of the game would have been the number one option on those three peat teams, especially a baby faced wing in his early twenties. And yes that includes Jordan and LeBron.

You guys come in these threads with straw man after straw man whining about a 35 year old man that plays a GAME for a living.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: LeBron James = Kobe Bryant*



Luke said:


> Y'all need to get a hobby.
> 
> Of course Kobe was the robin to Shaquille. Does anyone dispute that? No one in the history of the game would have been the number one option on those three peat teams, especially a baby faced wing in his early twenties. And yes that includes Jordan and LeBron.
> 
> You guys come in these threads with straw man after straw man whining about a 35 year old man that plays a GAME for a living.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


I've seen people dispute the Robin to shaq thing. Sadly. And people try and say LeBron is D Wade's robin sadly. You don't understand the level some of these clows stoop too


----------



## NK1990

LeGoat06 said:


> We listen to your side of the argument, it just sucks because your wrong



What side? I wasn't arguing anything, the whole point I posted was because of your stupid post about "where the kobe fans at lmao" you're acting like a child. So what exactly am I wrong about? I was telling you why the kobe fans aren't responding.


----------



## LeGoat06

Then it wasn't meant for you buddy sorry. And I didn't post "Where the Kobe fans at", So I guess were both wrong now


----------



## NK1990

LeGoat06 said:


> Then it wasn't meant for you buddy sorry. And I didn't post "Where the Kobe fans at", So I guess were both wrong now





Ooooooooo got me lol that was actually meant for pablo then.


----------



## LeGoat06

NK1990 said:


> Ooooooooo got me lol


Lol were all good now :darkomer:


----------



## doctordrizzay

Has anyone seen Kobe's game 7 stats for playoffs? 

He is one of the worst players of all-time.


----------



## LeGoat06

Drizzay makes good point


----------



## PauloCatarino

http://www.nbaarena.com/en/news/3765/kobe-voted-most-popular-nba-player-by-2013-rookie-class


----------



## LeGoat06

PauloCatarino said:


> http://www.nbaarena.com/en/news/3765/kobe-voted-most-popular-nba-player-by-2013-rookie-class


*Who ****ing cares*


----------



## PauloCatarino

LeGoat06 said:


> *Who ****ing cares*


lol. Just won myself a bet about who would respond first.


----------



## LeGoat06

Damn.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: LeBron James = Kobe Bryant*



Luke said:


> Y'all need to get a hobby.
> 
> Of course Kobe was the robin to Shaquille. Does anyone dispute that? No one in the history of the game would have been the number one option on those three peat teams, especially a baby faced wing in his early twenties. And yes that includes Jordan and LeBron.
> 
> You guys come in these threads with straw man after straw man whining about a 35 year old man that plays a GAME for a living.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


So you think theres would be no chance if Jordan would be the first option if he play with shaq? LMAO! Lakers biased fans my goodness lol. As phil says Jordan unlike kobe is a true real leader.


----------



## rayz789

doctordrizzay said:


> Dude...you post video's
> 
> I post STATS. STATS DONT LIE. You can't say Kobe is better in the clutch when STATS DONT LIE. YOU CANT ARGUE THAT.


Actually LeBron is 7-16 cause 5-12 was after the 2012 playoffs. Which means in the playoffs total in clutch, both LeBron/kobe are tied in most clutch shots made which is 7 but kobe had a far bad fg percentage in those clutch which is around 20% while LeBron is around the 40's%.


----------



## edabomb

Kobe and LeBron should focus on being better Executives than MJ.

Achievable goals.


----------



## doctordrizzay

edabomb said:


> Kobe and LeBron should focus on being better Executives than MJ.
> 
> Achievable goals.


Kobe should focus on going to anti-raping therapy...and not being the-rapy


----------



## XxIrvingxX

doctordrizzay said:


> Kobe should focus on going to anti-raping therapy...and not being the-rapy


No drizzay. Just no.

Still waiting on AJ....


----------



## XxIrvingxX

So I'm guessing we're all in agreement that mj is the best of the best. So what separates LeBron and Kobe from each other?


----------



## NK1990

XxIrvingxX said:


> So I'm guessing we're all in agreement that mj is the best of the best. So what separates LeBron and Kobe from each other?


Haven't we already been through this?


----------



## RollWithEm

NK1990 said:


> Haven't we already been through this?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

NK1990 said:


> Haven't we already been through this?


Yep, but i figured we should add some fuel to the fire.


----------



## RollWithEm

NK1990 said:


> Haven't we already been through this?


This thread was made for rehashing the same issues over and over and over and over...


----------



## robertisnice93

*Was kobe ever the best player in the league*

Lebron james has better stats per game in regular season and Post season. Lebron also has a much higher player efficiency rating. When Michael jordan was the best players late 80s and 90s he had the best all around stats and player efficiency rating


----------



## Luke

*Re: Was kobe ever the best player in the league*

In my opinion he was from '06-'08, since then it has clearly been LeBron by a very wide margin.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Was kobe ever the best player in the league*

Kobe was the best the years the Lakers were Kobe plus crap.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Was kobe ever the best player in the league*

Yeah, between the time Duncan and Shaquille declined and the time LeBron put it all together, Kobe was the best. So 2005ish to 2008ish.


----------



## billyhoyle

*Re: Was kobe ever the best player in the league*

Yeah i agree there was roughly a 3 year window when he was the best. I don’t agree that since it has been LeBron by a large margin since. Durant last season was phenonomal as was Melo for the most part. Though I admit LeBron was better because of his defence. Thats what separates him the most imo


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Was kobe ever the best player in the league*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Yeah, between the time Duncan and Shaquille declined and the time LeBron put it all together, Kobe was the best. So 2005ish to 2008ish.


Sounds about right.


----------



## l0st1

I never realized how good Jordan's numbers were in Washington...

01-02(38years old): 22.9ppg 5.7rpg 5.2apg 1.4spg 
02-03(39years old): 20.0ppg 6.1rpg 3.8apg 1.5spg


Impressive all the way till the end. Essentially those are similar numbers to what Wade has been putting up next to Lebron (granted there is a efficiency difference).


----------



## Basel

> CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Michael Jordan believes he could have beaten LeBron James in a game of one-on-one when he was in his prime.
> 
> He's not sure about Kobe Bryant.
> 
> In a video promoting the "NBA 2K14" video game that is being released Tuesday, Jordan said there's a long list of players he would've liked to have played one-on-one -- Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Julius Erving, Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade, Bryant and James, who is on the cover of this year's game.
> 
> "I don't think I would lose," Jordan says in the video, before smiling and adding, "other than to Kobe Bryant, because he steals all of my moves."


http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9753017/michael-jordan-thinks-beaten-lebron-james-prime


----------



## NK1990

It would be so awesome to see a prime kobe vs prime Jordan in a game of one on one, personally I think Jordan would win. But Kobe would definitely be able to give him a run for his money.

Question is....Prime Kobe vs LeBron in a game of one on one O.O


----------



## Da Grinch

I put LeBron over Kobe by quite a large margin and somewhat over Jordan too because it would be very hard to put together a championship team with Jordan nowadays that could beat a LeBron led team of equal or near equal talent.

Jordan is a very ball dominant scorer which means putting people around him talented enough to have a good team around him but egoless enough to allow him to Jordan , with role players its easy enough to find but there is no scottie level(top 5-10) guy walking around to put their ego aside to the purpose of winning , capable of getting his , distributing to the role players...the only guys I could think that could do it are Lebron(which would defeat the purpose ) and harden who is a 2guard making him a ill fit. a guy like wade for instance couldn't take getting chucked for any length of time and with Jordan that happens constantly because he is such a great scorer 

whereas Lebron's talent could play with virtually any top player because he is a playmaker as well as a scorer , he wants other teammates to score which makes him much easier to play with. and more importantly it allows him to get the most out of his teammates .

kobe is essentially a lesser version of Jordan and throughout his career players have had trouble playing with him even when they were successful because he was so ball dominant....Jordan is even more ball dominant...but also more productive.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Will Kobe pass Malone?*

I think almost everyone believes Kobe's extension today will be his last contract in the NBA. That gives him roughly 220 games left.

If that's the case he needs to average 30 plus to pass Kareem, which nobody will bet on. So what are the chances he passes the Mailman?

Karl- 36,928 points
Kobe- 31,617 points

Kobe would need to average 24.1 points per game over 220 to pass him. On a side note, Malone holds the record for most points with one franchise with 36,183 of those points scored as a Jazzian.


----------



## Laker Freak

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

If he comes back in the next week or 2 I think he has another 6000 points left in him.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

I doubt it.


----------



## NK1990

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

Kobe can pass Malone and WILL pass Malone, he's going to be the leading scorer in the NBA outside of another terrible injury that will force him to retire. The chance of him getting a 6th championship is getting less likely by the day, so I would assume to really put a STAMP on his legacy would be to have the all time scoring record. If he has to be 40 years old to do it then so be it.


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

How many of those 220 games do we expect Kobe to play? If we assume he plays 80%, or 4 out of every 5 games, then he needs 5/4 * 24 = 30ppg to reach Malone. He's not going to make it in the next 2-3 years, he'd need another contract.


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

If it's his last contract than no way in hell


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



kbdullah said:


> How many of those 220 games do we expect Kobe to play? If we assume he plays 80%, or 4 out of every 5 games, then he needs 5/4 * 24 = 30ppg to reach Malone. He's not going to make it in the next 2-3 years, he'd need another contract.


100% of them. That's why I said 220, the max he could play assuming he starts tonight is 230.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

I think he'll pass Malone.


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

Not if it's his last contract. If he extends after that for a year then definitely.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

Under this contract I think he'll be pretty close, either narrowly missing it or narrowly edging him out. I think he'll put up at least 26 a game this year in this system.


----------



## Hardworkrules

*Kobe Bryant Or Lebron James?*






(Over all time) Who is better Kobe or Lebron? 

I am very curious what u guys think!


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

We need to revisit this thread when Kobe returns.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

Even then, It's going to be an uphill battle for him to do it. Kareem is out of the question in my opinion. Malone, well it's not looking so good


----------



## edabomb

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

I gave him a 10% chance before. I give him 1% following today's news.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

Not happening.


----------



## Milos.Djuric

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

Very hard, he needs to be in full shape for this, I just don't see it happening.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

I can see Kobe being stubborn enough and dedicated to getting that record. Assuming he wants that record. Won't know until we see how he comes back from this newest injury. He was playing really well so far this season considering the injury he came back from. 

If D'Antoni stays the coach with his fast pace and avoidance of a defensive scheme I can see Kobe passing Malone. Kareem would take too many additional years to achieve probably.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



l0st1 said:


> I can see Kobe being stubborn enough and dedicated to getting that record. Assuming he wants that record. Won't know until we see how he comes back from this newest injury. He was playing really well so far this season considering the injury he came back from.
> 
> If D'Antoni stays the coach with his fast pace and avoidance of a defensive scheme I can see Kobe passing Malone. Kareem would take too many additional years to achieve probably.


Whats dedicated though? Chucking up 25+ shots per game and never passing the ball? At this point that is exactly what he is going to have to do. The mobility will not be there, his game is going to be forced to keep it outside. I just don't see him being as aggressive for any extended period of time.

I know Kobe just came back after a major injury, but the dude looked straight up washed up relative to what he used to be. 

I just don't see it anymore. He should sit out this entire year, and reboot next year. Fresh, healthy, and determined. That will be his only chance. If he keeps forcing premature returns, its going to be breakdown after breakdown. Eventually the miles will catch up


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



OneBadLT123 said:


> Whats dedicated though? Chucking up 25+ shots per game and never passing the ball? At this point that is exactly what he is going to have to do. The mobility will not be there, his game is going to be forced to keep it outside. I just don't see him being as aggressive for any extended period of time.
> 
> I know Kobe just came back after a major injury, but the dude looked straight up washed up relative to what he used to be.
> 
> I just don't see it anymore. He should sit out this entire year, and reboot next year. Fresh, healthy, and determined. That will be his only chance. If he keeps forcing premature returns, its going to be breakdown after breakdown. Eventually the miles will catch up


Washed up? Clearly he isn't the same player he was before. That doesn't mean he isn't still a very good and capable player. Other than his turnovers he was a productive player during his brief return. Had multiple 20+ point games, and that's on top of the fact he was playing out of position.

By dedicated I mean if that's the only thing he wants to achieve before retiring. We all know how obsessed he is with winning and being one of thsoe GOAT type of players. If he has that same dedication to going after Malone or Kareem then I think he can do it. First injury seemed like a random injury and he didn't seem to rush it to me, seemed more just to be rehabbing hard. He was medically cleared so don't see an issue. As for this injury, I didn't see it. How did it occur?

As of right now I don't think the gap between him and Malone is big enough to discount him.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



OneBadLT123 said:


> Whats dedicated though? Chucking up 25+ shots per game and never passing the ball? At this point that is exactly what he is going to have to do. The mobility will not be there, his game is going to be forced to keep it outside. I just don't see him being as aggressive for any extended period of time.
> 
> I know Kobe just came back after a major injury, but the dude looked straight up washed up relative to what he used to be.
> 
> I just don't see it anymore. He should sit out this entire year, and reboot next year. Fresh, healthy, and determined. That will be his only chance. If he keeps forcing premature returns, its going to be breakdown after breakdown. Eventually the miles will catch up


Did you actually watch any of his six games? What look washed up about him to you? His biggest problem to me was his rhythm. Guy was throwing cross court passes out of bounds. Not sure what age has to do with that.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

If he catches Malone, it won't be before the end of the 2015-16 season. 

It all just depends on if Kobe continues to linger on past when we all expect him to retire, averaging like 17 points per game when he's 38.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

I don't think so. He'll pass Jordan though.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



l0st1 said:


> I can see Kobe being stubborn enough and dedicated to getting that record. Assuming he wants that record. Won't know until we see how he comes back from this newest injury. He was playing really well so far this season considering the injury he came back from.
> 
> If D'Antoni stays the coach with his fast pace and avoidance of a defensive scheme I can see Kobe passing Malone. Kareem would take too many additional years to achieve probably.


IMHO Kobe has, *at most, *2 more seasons over 20ppg. And he won't again play more than 75 games a season.

So, no.


----------



## Milos.Djuric

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

Points made in playoffs are part of the sum?


----------



## Basel

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



Milos.Djuric said:


> Points made in playoffs are part of the sum?


No.


----------



## Milos.Djuric

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



Basel said:


> No.


Thought so. Thanks.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

I am curious to know what the totals are including postseason. Those numbers would have to be incredibly higher


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



OneBadLT123 said:


> I am curious to know what the totals are including postseason. Those numbers would have to be incredibly higher


Looked it up
Top 5:

Kareem:
Career - 38,387
Playoffs - 5,762
Total - 44,149
FGA's - 32,729 (both reg and post season)
FTA's - 10,723 (both reg and post season)
Seasons - 18
Games Played - 1797

Karl:
Career - 36,928
Playoffs - 4,761
Total - 41,689
FGA's - 29,978 (both reg and post season)
FTA's - 14,913 (both reg and post season)
Seasons - 19
Games Played - 1669

Michael:
Career - 32,292
Playoffs - 5,987
Total - 38,311
FGA's - 29,304 (both reg and post season)
FTA's - 10,538 (both reg and post season)
Seasons - 14
Games Played - 1251

Kobe:
Career - 31,700
Playoffs - 5,640
Total - 37,340
FGA's - 28,873 (both reg and post season)
FTA's - 11,106 (both reg and post season)
Seasons - 18 (active)
Games Played - 1465

Wilt:
Career - 31,419
Playoffs - 3,607
Total - 35,266
FGA's - 26,252 (both reg and post season)
FTA's - 13,489 (both reg and post season)
Seasons - 15
Games Played - 1205

Interesting to note, MJ has the highest playoff point total of all time

Kobe leads the league in FGA in the playoffs all time

Malone leads FTA's all time (both playoffs and reg season), Shaq in the playoffs all time at 2317

MJ and Kobe are neck and neck in points and FGA's but look how many more seasons Kobe has played. Shows Jordan dominated the ball more than Kobe

Curious to know what Wilts point total would be if they had a longer regular postseason

Most of the players above except Kobe and Wilt played in the 5 game first round format the majority of their careers


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

1.	Michael Jordan*	5987
2.	Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*	5762
3.	Kobe Bryant	5640
4.	Shaquille O'Neal	5250
5.	Karl Malone*	4761
6.	Tim Duncan	4614
7.	Jerry West*	4457
8.	Larry Bird*	3897
9.	LeBron James	3871
10.	John Havlicek*	3776

Kobe would probably need about 15 more playoff games at 23-24ppg to become the all-time playoff leader in points. I don't know if the Lakers can get back to the playoffs in time.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

Makes you wonder where Jordan would have been had he not taken 2 seasons off during his prime... Yikes


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



OneBadLT123 said:


> Makes you wonder where Jordan would have been had he not taken 2 seasons off during his prime... Yikes


For the playoffs it was only one season. I assume it would have been another 500-600 points added to his total.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

No list is credible to me with out the iconic hall of famer Julius Erving when discussing scoring. No way should he be left out because he also played in the ABA. He is one of the first superstar wing players to revolutionize the position and was always a high scorer and very efficient in the ABA and NBA.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



77AJ said:


> No list is credible to me with out the iconic hall of famer Julius Erving when discussing scoring. No way should he be left out because he also played in the ABA. He is one of the first superstar wing players to revolutionize the position and was always a high scorer and very efficient in the ABA and NBA.


He is number 6 on the list just below Wilt. His ABA/NBA numbers at 30026 points in the regular season with 4580 in the postseason for a total of 34,606. Still 6th on the total list. ABA numbers included.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



OneBadLT123 said:


> He is number 6 on the list just below Wilt. His ABA/NBA numbers at 30026 points in the regular season with 4580 in the postseason for a total of 34,606. Still 6th on the total list. ABA numbers included.


Interesting, I would of assumed he was a top five scorer of all time. I've been watching a lot of his ABA and early NBA games. He was a force of nature. Big time scorer very efficient and amazing athletic ability. 

What does the top ten look like for career scoring (regular season) with the Doctor included.


----------



## DADE_COUNTY

*Re: LeBron James = Kobe Bryant*



Vinsanity said:


> Exact same player....looks like James will be better though


Lol.. What


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



77AJ said:


> Interesting, I would of assumed he was a top five scorer of all time. I've been watching a lot of his ABA and early NBA games. He was a force of nature. *Big time scorer* very efficient and amazing athletic ability.
> 
> What does the top ten look like for career scoring (regular season) with the Doctor included.


Julius was a volume scorer in the ABA, not so much in the NBA. He was not exactly pedestrian in the NBA, but nowhere near his 30ppg showings in the lesser league.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



77AJ said:


> Interesting, I would of assumed he was a top five scorer of all time. I've been watching a lot of his ABA and early NBA games. He was a force of nature. Big time scorer very efficient and amazing athletic ability.
> 
> *What does the top ten look like for career scoring (regular season) with the Doctor included.*


Total regular season, NBA and ABA numbers included. 



Code:


1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  38387
2. Karl Malone 	        36928
3. Michael Jordan 	32292
4. Kobe Bryant 	        31700
5. Wilt Chamberlain 	31419
6. Julius Erving     	30026
7. Moses Malone    	29580
8. Shaquille O'Neal 	28596
9. Dan Issel 	        27482
10. Elvin Hayes         27313
11. Hakeem Olajuwon 	26946


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



PauloCatarino said:


> Julius was a volume scorer in the ABA, not so much in the NBA. He was not exactly pedestrian in the NBA, but nowhere near his 30ppg showings in the lesser league.


You didn't notice his FA dropping ? Or the fact he played next to two other 20 PPG scorers when joining Philadelphia ? Those were all factors. And Julius Erving confirmed it on a podcast with Bill Simmons. It had nothing to do with the NBA level players versus the ABA level players. Hear it for yourself from the Iconic one Dr. J!


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



OneBadLT123 said:


> Total regular season, NBA and ABA numbers included.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  38387
> 2. Karl Malone 	        36928
> 3. Michael Jordan 	32292
> 4. Kobe Bryant 	        31700
> 5. Wilt Chamberlain 	31419
> 6. Julius Erving     	30026
> 7. Moses Malone    	29580
> 8. Shaquille O'Neal 	28596
> 9. Dan Issel 	        27482
> 10. Elvin Hayes         27313
> 11. Hakeem Olajuwon 	26946


Thank you now thats a legit basketball list of the all time greatest scorers. The NBA needs to do what the NFL did when they merged the NFL/AFL the stats, accomplishments records etc came along with the merger. The NBA needs to do the same with the NBA/ABA.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

No way he does it. He is pretty much done...He keep coming back though and try to play so everyone thinks he "insane"


----------



## robertlakerfan

*Kobe played in a weak era*

Besides Lebron James and Tim Duncan what all time great dd he play against MJ played against Magic, Bird DW, Clyde, Ewing Barkley Malone Stockton Isaiah David Robinson


----------



## LeGoat06

*Re: Kobe played in a weak era*

*grabs popcorn*


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Kobe played in a weak era*

In before the merge


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe played in a weak era*



robertlakerfan said:


> Besides Lebron James and Tim Duncan what all time great dd he play against MJ played against Magic, Bird DW, Clyde, Ewing Barkley Malone Stockton Isaiah David Robinson


Kobe played four seasons against MJ.


----------



## Drizzy

*Re: Kobe played in a weak era*



Sir Patchwork said:


> In before the merge


+1


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## ChrisWoj

*Re: Kobe played in a weak era*



Sir Patchwork said:


> In before the merge


Got what in before the merge? Pointlessness?


----------



## ChrisWoj

*Re: Kobe played in a weak era*



robertlakerfan said:


> Besides Lebron James and Tim Duncan what all time great dd he play against MJ played against Magic, Bird DW, Clyde, Ewing Barkley Malone Stockton Isaiah David Robinson


You seem to be arguing that Kobe Bryant isn't an all time great NBA Player. And yet at the same time the fact that you're putting his credentials up next to the hands down most competitive driven superstar of all time contradicts that fact. Nobody here is going to argue for Kobe over Jordan, at least none of the sane ones. But your very placing of his name against Jordan's proves that he's definitely an all time great.


----------



## doctordrizzay

*Re: Kobe played in a weak era*

He played in a era with Shaq....oh wait...Shaq was on his team.

/Thread


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe played in a weak era*



Sir Patchwork said:


> In before the merge


Are you 15? If so congratulations on your accomplishment.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Kobe played in a weak era*



Jamel Irief said:


> Are you 15? If so congratulations on your accomplishment.


Are you 15? If so, nice burn, dude.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Kobe played in a weak era*



Dornado said:


> Are you 15? If so, nice burn, dude.


I am. That's why I appreciate your pee wee herman diss.


----------



## Dornado




----------



## l0st1

Pretty sure I'm more interested in finding out who IS and IS NOT 15 years old and who MAY or MAY NOT be PeeWee Herman than I am about LebronVSKobeVSJordan


----------



## John

*Jordan 35 Vs Kobe 35*

Nothing said!!!!


----------



## Da Grinch

*If people grade players by how good they are at their peak, then Lebron is better than Jordan.*

Jordan's peak as a player was during his 1st 3peat after which he retired and came back as a great player but not quite the player he was in his 20's, he scored less and less efficiently , defended less dominantly, often giving up the tougher defensive assignments to scottie , and even ron harper on occasion to save his legs for late game heroics, which wasn't really a concern of phil jackson before 1994.

before the 1st 3peat he put up gaudier numbers but couldn't balance his own greatness and acclimate it to upgrade his team to a championship level.

in his late 20's he had the athleticism, the bball IQ, the personal maturity and the basketball skills to dominate and to work within the team concept.

all other points in his career pale in comparison because he was either not as physically capable or mentally incapable of being the same caliber of player but the same is true of most great players that they tend to peak around the age of 27 to 29 .

lebron seems to be plateauing now, so it seems like a good time to gauge him at his peak. defensively every bit as potent, an all league caliber defender capable of guarding 4 positions.

as far as scoring the ball, he is having a legendary season no one has ever scored so much so efficiently, shooting .590 from the field .415 from 3(.640 on 2 pointers), a TS% of .674 while averaging 25.5 points a game

also his ability to keep his teammates involved while being his offense's focal point puts him at another level, its something jordan clearly wasn't capable of doing.

a lot of people like to judge players based on the resume's(how many voted on awards and such) when they are declining or are almost out the game and while longevity is nice its silly to base someone's greatness on it but the simple truth is a player's greatness is defined by what can do or what he cant do.

and no one in the last 30 years has been a better player than Lebron is now.


----------



## doctordrizzay

Jordan (for now)
Lebron







Kobe.


----------



## S1CK_HANDLEZ

Kobe>MJ>Lebron

/Thread


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

There's MJ and Kobe. And then there's everybody else. 
















And then Wade and Ray Allen.


----------



## doctordrizzay

S1CK_HANDLEZ said:


> Kobe>MJ>Lebron
> 
> /Thread


lol wtf, Kobe isn't even a superstar.


----------



## Larry Legend

S1CK_HANDLEZ said:


> Kobe>MJ>Lebron
> 
> /Thread


MG is better than Kobe as winner, as leader, as scorer & shooter (higher % from field with less shots), as defender, as passer, as stealler, as blocker, and as basketball player overall! And the advantage of MG is bigger in finals.

Bird is also better player than kobe, and he is brtter as leader & winner, in game intelligence, in % frome field & three & line, as passer, as stealer & in assists-turnovers ratio.


----------



## l0st1

Oh god, he's back.


----------



## KDurant23

In terms of Kobe's ability as a basketball player/stats, he's at the bottom of this list, and it goes in the order of MJ>Lebron>Kobe. But in terms of legacy/accomplishments it's MJ>Kobe>Lebron.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*

Is 27pts 7reb 7ast better than 24pts 10reb 6ast?

I ask that because I don't think LBJ is better than Larry Bird let alone Jordan. Kobe is not at that level. He wasn't even a consensus best in the NBA while he was at his peak. It's not his fault that he's the best 2 guard in the game and but came after Jordan. His career will forever be overshadowed and marred by Jordan's legacy. 

I would submit that Jordan>Bird>LBJ>Kobe. I'm not going to get into the other positions because that just gets too muddled.


----------



## Larry Legend

*Re: Will Kobe pass Malone?*



Hyperion said:


> Is 27pts 7reb 7ast better than 24pts 10reb 6ast?
> 
> I ask that because I don't think LBJ is better than Larry Bird let alone Jordan. Kobe is not at that level. He wasn't even a consensus best in the NBA while he was at his peak. It's not his fault that he's the best 2 guard in the game and but came after Jordan. His career will forever be overshadowed and marred by Jordan's legacy.
> 
> I would submit that Jordan>Bird>LBJ>Kobe. I'm not going to get into the other positions because that just gets too muddled.


Bird was a better leader & winner & basketball genius than LBJ and as Magic was.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*LeBron vs Jordan as GMs*

So since the popular narrative seems to be about Lebron having no help on the team he essentially handpicked to win 8 rings with, I have to ask... who will make a worse GM? The guy that used top 3 selections on Kwame, AMMO and MKG (bbb.net loved MKG though) or the guy that teamed up with Wade and Bosh over Rose, Boozer and Noah?

:legoat:


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: LeBron vs Jordan as GMs*

Please don't merge into the big Lebron Jordan thread... clearly a different topic.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Can we say that they were both pretty poor GMs?


----------



## BeeGee

This is what happens when you predict 8 championships during a parade thrown for you and two teammates before you ever play a single game together.


----------



## Pablo5

:nono:


BeeGee said:


> This is what happens when you predict 8 championships during a parade thrown for you and two teammates before you ever play a single game together.


That what happens when people wait on your down fall. Where were the trolls for the last two seasons? 

I'm sure if he had help like this in the Finals he would have 5 rings by now 

2000 - Averaged 38.0 points, 16.7 rebounds and 2.67 blocks
2001 - Averaged 33.0 points, 15.6 rebounds and 3.40 block
2002 - Averaged 36.3 points, 12.3 rebounds and 2.75 block

But yeah teammates doesn't matter much


----------



## PauloCatarino

Pablo5 said:


> :nono:
> 
> That what happens when people wait on your down fall. Where were the trolls for the last two seasons?
> 
> I'm sure if he had help like this in the Finals he would have 5 rings by now
> 
> 2000 - Averaged 38.0 points, 16.7 rebounds and 2.67 blocks
> 2001 - Averaged 33.0 points, 15.6 rebounds and 3.40 block
> 2002 - Averaged 36.3 points, 12.3 rebounds and 2.75 block
> 
> But yeah teammates doesn't matter much


You forgot:

2009 - Averaged 18.6 points, 9.2 rebounds and 1.8 blocks
2010 - Averaged 18.6 points, 11.6 rebounds and 2.6 blocks


----------



## e-monk

Pablo5 said:


> :nono:
> 
> That what happens when people wait on your down fall. Where were the trolls for the last two seasons?
> 
> I'm sure if he had help like this in the Finals he would have 5 rings by now
> 
> 2000 - Averaged 38.0 points, 16.7 rebounds and 2.67 blocks
> 2001 - Averaged 33.0 points, 15.6 rebounds and 3.40 block
> 2002 - Averaged 36.3 points, 12.3 rebounds and 2.75 block
> 
> But yeah teammates doesn't matter much


you're kind of sad


----------



## Pablo5

e-monk said:


> you're kind of sad


E-monk since you're on my dick so hard tonight tell me what I said that was wrong? 

I posted the numbers for a reason. So now tell me where I was wrong


----------



## e-monk

oh, you know (it's just inconvenient for you to recognize that Kobe did just as much coming out of a tougher conference with Pau and Odom as you're boy in the piss poor east managed with Bosh and Wade)


----------



## PauloCatarino

e-monk said:


> oh, you know (it's just inconvenient for you to recognize that Kobe did just as much coming out of a tougher conference with Pau and Odom as you're boy in the piss poor east managed with Bosh and Wade)


Can't help finding it very funny to see Lebron James fanboys STILL feeling threatened by Kobe Bryant after ALL these years...


----------



## FormerPHCrew

If LeBron wins an MVP and leads the Cavs to a title this year everyone agrees he's better than Kobe right?


----------



## PauloCatarino

FormerPHCrew said:


> If LeBron wins an MVP and leads the Cavs to a title this year everyone agrees he's better than Kobe right?


No.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

FormerPHCrew said:


> If LeBron wins an MVP and leads the Cavs to a title this year everyone agrees he's better than Kobe right?


LeBron has already peaked higher than Kobe did and sustained it throughout his prime, but Kobe will have longevity/accomplishments on LeBron until LeBron catches up to him in years played. 

Some people will never concede that though. To get everyone to agree on anything is pretty much impossible.


----------



## Pablo5

Sir Patchwork said:


> *LeBron has already peaked higher than Kobe did and sustained it throughout his prime*, but Kobe will have longevity/accomplishments on LeBron until LeBron catches up to him in years played.
> 
> Some people will never concede that though. To get everyone to agree on anything is pretty much impossible.


All Day


----------



## Luke

I'm not sure if one can even make the argument anymore that Kobe should be higher than LeBron on an all time list.


----------



## EternalWorkYT

LeBron will go down as the greatest player to ever walk the earth. Hands down.


----------



## e-monk

hands down - oh to be young again


----------



## Pyrex

FormerPHCrew said:


> If LeBron wins an MVP and leads the Cavs to a title this year everyone agrees he's better than Kobe right?


Lol Lebron already passed him before his first title....Kobe barely has any individual awards.


----------



## cima

MJ wasn't lying when he said Kobe stole his moves. This video is insane!


----------



## Basel

cima said:


> MJ wasn't lying when he said Kobe stole his moves. This video is insane!
> 
> Kobe Bryant vs Michael Jordan - Identical Plays: The Last Dance (Part III) - YouTube



Good artists copy, great artists steal.


----------



## Smath

cima said:


> MJ wasn't lying when he said Kobe stole his moves. This video is insane!
> 
> Kobe Bryant vs Michael Jordan - Identical Plays: The Last Dance (Part III) - YouTube


Great players think alike ?  thank you for that movie , really enjoyed it! and can't wait to see the Mamba back in action! 
@Basel did you get chills last year when Kobe came back and they played the Darth Vader song? hehe


----------



## Basel

Smath said:


> Great players think alike ?  thank you for that movie , really enjoyed it! and can't wait to see the Mamba back in action!
> 
> 
> @Basel did you get chills last year when Kobe came back and they played the Darth Vader song? hehe



I don't remember what they played, but I was at the game that he returned and I definitely got goosebumps when he came out onto the court and when they introduced him.


----------



## R-Star

I like how no one responded to @Pyrex. 

Why some posters on here keep trying when everyone just ignores them baffles me.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

R-Star said:


> I like how no one responded to @Pyrex.
> 
> Why some posters on here keep trying when everyone just ignores them baffles me.


If your bitchy rants weren't so entertaining, we would ignore you in a heart beat.


----------



## Porn Player

Was just coming in to post the Cima video. 

Really great stuff.


----------



## Joni992

I know kobe and mj plays better than lebron. But as of late lebron really show us fans that he can also be the best in the court!


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Joni992 said:


> I know kobe and mj plays better than lebron. But as of late lebron really show us fans that he can also be the best in the court!


At this point, LeBron is a better player than Kobe ever was at any point in his career, no questions asked.


----------



## collierm48

Lebron definitely has potential to pass both of them careerwise. 
I just think it's ridiculous that he has to jump around and go play with other great players. 
It shows a lack of discipline.


----------



## Bojax

Well Lebron has certainly passed Kobe, with all the MVPs and Final MVPs and of course the ridiculous stats. His name to the NBA is as colossal to what MJ was back in the 90s. Of course Lebron has a long ways to go.


----------



## HB

There was a time on these boards that the mere mention of Kobe sent this place into a frenzy. How times have changed? I guess a few lottery bound seasons will dampen the excitement of such


----------



## softgame

.
*GIF's of Over 100 Chest-to-Chest Posters by MJ* (only chest-to-chest.. no weak reach-ins or fly-bys... and almost all in halfcourt)


Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders

Random Posters 1

Random Posters 2

Random Posters 3

Random Posters 4

Random Posters 5

Random Posters 6 (for 6)

Old-Man Chest-to-Chest Posters

Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers

Various Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (two-foot takeoffs)
.
.


----------



## e-monk

HB said:


> There was a time on these boards that the mere mention of Kobe sent this place into a frenzy. How times have changed? I guess a few lottery bound seasons will dampen the excitement of such


doesn't hurt that this thread effectively herds all this nonsense to it's own little pasture - best decision admin has made here


----------



## softgame

in the real world, less playoff accolades, stats, heroics, and eyetest deficit means you have to get in line behind Jordan.

idk, can lebron do goat things like this against the goat defender?... or do we repeatedly give him a pass when the competition peaks?














does lebron have it like this?














or did he have to finish over bigs and congested paints like this?














jordan makes a play like this look so easy, it doesn't register that such a move off a one-step vertical is peerless, goat ability.










.


----------



## softgame

.
*In today's game, 3-point shooting and defensive 3 seconds clears the paint of defenders, so defenders are rarely awaiting the penetrator like previous eras, and can only reach-in or flyby most times, or not even contest at all - so lebron literally almost never has to chest-to-chest dunk on (posterize) anyone.
*

Lebron only posterized three players the entire 2013-2014 season.. 




Lebron only posterized two players in the 2012-2013 season... 




Compare that to a few of Jordan's dunks from the 1988 season (starting at 1:47 mark), back when guys only shot two-pointers so the game was much more compacted with zero spacing, and there was no defensive 3 seconds so the paints were always packed - like night and day... 





*Here's GIF's of over 100 more chest-to-chest posters by Jordan:
*

Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders
Random Posters 1
Random Posters 2
Random Posters 3
Random Posters 4
Random Posters 5
Random Posters 6 (for 6)
Old-Man Chest-to-Chest Posters
Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers
Various Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (two-foot takeoffs)


no need to nitpick highlights or anything.


----------



## e-monk

good call


----------



## Babe Ruth

I just recently read a book written by Michael Jordan's trainer- Tim Grover. In 1989 at age 27 Michael started to do more advanced training with the idea of keeping his explosiveness. His vertical leap was a solid 38 inches. By 1993 when he took his baseball sabbatical his vertical had gone to 48 inches. Kobe also hired Grover. 

Clearly both benefited long term by the training. If Lebron's game is down this year it's a valid question to ask if he trained properly in off season. Maybe his weight loss cost him some explosiveness.


----------



## Basel

*Re: LeBron James = Kobe Bryant*

Kobe has more points than Jordan. 

Kobe > Jordan. 

24 > 23.


----------



## King Joseus

:|


----------



## King Joseus




----------



## Hyperion

*Re: LeBron James = Kobe Bryant*



Basel said:


> Kobe has more points than Jordan.
> 
> Kobe > Jordan.
> 
> 24 > 23.


Baselscience


----------



## R-Star

How important is it?


----------



## keenan

Kobe


----------



## Wiz

I have always been of the opinion that athletes naturally evolve over time. I think Calvin Johnson would shatter Jerry Rice's records if he played in that time. I think players like Alexander Ovechkin and Steven Stamkos would have been better scorers than Gretzky if they played back then.

Something just makes me lean Jordan over Lebron though. I do think there is a very legitimate argument to be made for Lebron, I am just not ready to put him over MJ.


----------



## Pablo5

Say no more….


----------



## JT

*the most fascinating thing about Jordan*

actually...eh


----------



## Bubbles

*Re: the most fascinating thing about Jordan*

Fascinating thread


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: the most fascinating thing about Jordan*

eh (munro) is most fascinating thing about Jordan?!


----------



## RollWithEm

Merged


----------



## JT

Kobe be like...

https://twitter.com/BdotAdot5/status/628292321717518336/video/1


----------



## Dornado




----------



## l0st1

47 sure looks like he straight up travels/double dribbles.

EDIT: Also, that fist raise after he hits game winner in 18, never realized he did that. Wonder if that has anything to do with why Kobe does it? Or just common celebration


----------



## Gingerballer14

It's not even a discussion really, sure MJ didn't have the consistent outside shot, but he didn't really play in an era that valued three pointers to begin with. Not only did he win more championships than either of these two, but he did it without a great supporting cast. Kobe had Shaq who is the greatest big man in NBA history besides Bill Russell or Kareem, and Lebron has had Love, Kyrie, Bosh, Wade and still only managed to win two rings. Meanwhile MJ won 6 rings with Dennis Rodman who was essentially a rebounder and defender and not much else, and Scottie Pippen who did not prove to be much more than a very good player when Jordan was gone. He most certaintly would not have made the HOF had he not played with Jordan. Jordan was clearly the superior player to both in the sense that he impacted the game MORE SUCCESSFULLY than Kobe or Lebron ever has or will. Not to say that Lebron doesn't have a chance to make that happen.

P.S. Jordan gets an added bonus for going out on his own terms.


----------



## jayk009

yeah Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman are mediocre players


----------



## JT

I found this place on subreddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/2dzolu/compilation_of_kobe_bryant_stories/

really interesting stuff.


----------



## Basel

JT said:


> I found this place on subreddit:
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/2dzolu/compilation_of_kobe_bryant_stories/
> 
> really interesting stuff.


Always love reading about Kobe stories.


----------



## JusticeWhiteside

I was really wondering why there was this thread. I understand the Lebron and Jordan comparisons...but Kobe? He doesn't have a place with those two. But then I noticed the thread was made in 2002 lol.


----------



## JT

JusticeWhiteside said:


> I was really wondering why there was this thread. I understand the Lebron and Jordan comparisons...but Kobe? He doesn't have a place with those two. But then I noticed the thread was made in 2002 lol.


how old are you again?


----------



## JusticeWhiteside

JT said:


> how old are you again?


What do you mean again? Did someone tell you my age before?


----------



## e-monk

you know, back when you were using the other dipshit user name?


----------



## JusticeWhiteside

Ive never been on this forum in my life till like a month ago or whatever, and I would never have a user name called "dipshit". So I don't know what to say


----------



## BNJWOLVESFAN

I have it in this order...

1.) Michael Jordan
2.) Kobe Bryant
3.) LeBron James


I always knew Lebron wasn't going to be able to sustain the level of play as long as Kobe and Michael due to his size and lack of post play. His jump shot is still suspect and for me when he left in his prime to go to Miami to win just two championships that put him out of contention for being better than Kobe. No way would he ever be as good as Michael Jordan.


----------



## JusticeWhiteside

BNJWOLVESFAN said:


> I have it in this order...
> 
> 1.) Michael Jordan
> 2.) Kobe Bryant
> 3.) LeBron James
> 
> 
> I always knew Lebron wasn't going to be able to sustain the level of play as long as Kobe and Michael due to his size and lack of post play. His jump shot is still suspect and for me when he left in his prime to go to Miami to win just two championships that put him out of contention for being better than Kobe. No way would he ever be as good as Michael Jordan.


Lmfao, trolls going to troll


----------



## JusticeWhiteside

At least ESPN got it right and ranked Lebron 3rd of all-time. This is why people are on forums and others are paid.


----------



## BNJWOLVESFAN

JusticeWhiteside said:


> Lmfao, trolls going to troll


But I wasn't trolling?:thinking2:


----------



## XxIrvingxX

BNJWOLVESFAN said:


> JusticeWhiteside said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lmfao, trolls going to troll
> 
> 
> 
> But I wasn't trolling?
Click to expand...

I don't think you were either but I do have to ask: how does him leaving Cleveland to win a title Miami take him out of contention with Kobe?


----------



## JusticeWhiteside

XxIrvingxX said:


> I don't think you were either but I do have to ask: how does him leaving Cleveland to win a title Miami take him out of contention with Kobe?


Because Kobe plays in a small market and only had Shaq, Gasol, Odom, Artest, Nash, Dwight Howard, Robert Horry, Bynum...as teammates.

Lebron had Mo Williams...so he should have stayed in the big market of Cleveland with all those amazing teammates to win.


----------



## e-monk

what was your original poster name back when everyone thought you were a little turd? I forget now - but you're still a little turd, too bad that didn't change


----------



## BNJWOLVESFAN

XxIrvingxX said:


> I don't think you were either but I do have to ask: how does him leaving Cleveland to win a title Miami take him out of contention with Kobe?


Because to me, him leaving Cleveland to join Miami was him running from that challenge of winning a ring with Cleveland the first time around. He was the reigning MVP and considered the best player in the world, people should have gone to him, not him leaving in the prime of his career.


----------



## BNJWOLVESFAN

JusticeWhiteside said:


> Because Kobe plays in a small market and only had Shaq, Gasol, Odom, Artest, Nash, Dwight Howard, Robert Horry, Bynum...as teammates.
> 
> Lebron had Mo Williams...so he should have stayed in the big market of Cleveland with all those amazing teammates to win.


Well since you put Nash up there with Artest, I will add Shaq as one of those players with Mo williams  LeBron did have Shaq too remember?


----------



## PauloCatarino

JusticeWhiteside said:


> At least ESPN got it right and ranked Lebron 3rd of all-time. This is why people are on forums and others are paid.


You ARE a troll, after all!

Pablo5?


----------



## PauloCatarino

BNJWOLVESFAN said:


> Because to me, him leaving Cleveland to join Miami was him running from that challenge of winning a ring with Cleveland the first time around. He was the reigning MVP and considered the best player in the world, people should have gone to him, not him leaving in the prime of his career.


I understand the "he jumped ship to win championships" argument. Moses started it.
STILL, 
Even if Lebron's championships could concievably be considered "tainted" by that m.o., AS A PLAYER he is pretty much comparable to Kobe Bryant. Sure, Kobe won with less, but head-to-head i would say they are at the same level and that a strong argument can be made Lebron James WAS the better player.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

BNJWOLVESFAN said:


> Because to me, him leaving Cleveland to join Miami was him running from that challenge of winning a ring with Cleveland the first time around. He was the reigning MVP and considered the best player in the world, people should have gone to him, not him leaving in the prime of his career.


He tried having people go to him. And they didn't. Bosh didn't go to him. Amare didn't go to him. Wade didn't go to him. No one wanted to go to him. And it had nothing to do with him. 

And no one went to Jordan. No one went to Kobe. Their all star teammates were either already on the team when they joined the league or ended up being drafted by them eventually.

And regardless, none of this has anything to do with them as basketball players. How does this prove Kobe was a better PLAYER than LeBron?


----------



## BNJWOLVESFAN

XxIrvingxX said:


> He tried having people go to him. And they didn't. Bosh didn't go to him. Amare didn't go to him. Wade didn't go to him. No one wanted to go to him. And it had nothing to do with him.
> 
> And no one went to Jordan. No one went to Kobe. Their all star teammates were either already on the team when they joined the league or ended up being drafted by them eventually.
> 
> And regardless, none of this has anything to do with them as basketball players. How does this prove Kobe was a better PLAYER than LeBron?


OH you want an answer as to why he is the better player, sorry this page has gotten so long. I didn't read the initial question, I thought it was the best legacy. The better player I still feel is Kobe Bryant, he was a better offensive player, better defensively, not quite as athletic but still a freak athlete, and you could go to him with the game on the line. The ONE thing I would give to LeBron is the basketball IQ/feel for the game. Which is why he has higher percentages, too often Kobe would and still does settle for wild and contested jump shots.


----------



## Da Grinch

I don't rally see how kobe gets in a discussion with LeBron or Jordan for greatness.

statistically he doesn't come close and he's played on some of the most stacked teams in the past 20 years .

as a teammate he has actually driven good teammates away and is blamed for the 2003-04 team's self destruction in the finals 

which is not to say he hasn't ben a great player but there is a level of difference when discussing their place in the history of the game.

Kobe is basically in the 10-20 range while LeBron and MJ have resumes capable of top 5 and even the top spot.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Da Grinch said:


> I don't rally see how kobe gets in a discussion with LeBron or Jordan for greatness.
> 
> statistically he doesn't come close and he's played on some of the most stacked teams in the past 20 years .
> 
> as a teammate he has actually driven good teammates away and is blamed for the 2003-04 team's self destruction in the finals
> 
> which is not to say he hasn't ben a great player but there is a level of difference when discussing their place in the history of the game.
> 
> *Kobe is basically in the 10-20 range while LeBron and MJ have resumes capable of top 5 and even the top spot*.


Dude, cause i think you are a reasonable (sp?) poster, i'm not gonna say right away you are out of your freaking mind. 

First: if you put Kobe in he "10-20" range, please name 15 players who were greater than Kobe Bryant. I dare you. 

Second: It's a given Jordan has a resume for the top spot. Please tell me what is Lebron's "resume" for said spot. And after you realize you can't do it, please tell me Lebron's "resume" for Top-5.


----------



## Da Grinch

PauloCatarino said:


> Dude, cause i think you are a reasonable (sp?) poster, i'm not gonna say right away you are out of your freaking mind.
> 
> First: if you put Kobe in he "10-20" range, please name 15 players who were greater than Kobe Bryant. I dare you.
> 
> Second: It's a given Jordan has a resume for the top spot. Please tell me what is Lebron's "resume" for said spot. And after you realize you can't do it, please tell me Lebron's "resume" for Top-5.


well since I put him In the 10-20 range I really only have to name 10 but I feel it totally comes down to your criteria .

if its peak level of play he's closer to 20 if you make longevity of greatness a big factor obviously he comes closer to 10.

but there is a top echelon of players he simply isn't in.

wilt
Russell
kareem 
Michael Jordan
LeBron


then you have 
shaq
Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson(averaged a triple double over the course of 5 years)
Durant 
magic(3 time mvp)
bird(3 time mvp in consecutive years 84-86)
curry
Duncan
moses Malone(3 time mvp when kareem , bird and magic running around)

(that's 14)

players who at their best have clearly been a notch above kobe's best at some point in their career.

kobe is to me in the next group with 
wade
i.thomas
McHale
west
Baylor
dr. j
chris paul
westbrook
david robinson
garnett
pippen
barkley
iverson
karl Malone

great players some of whom you can make a very good argument that they belong higher but I just don't see it that way.

people have different ways of evaluating and what's more important to them to be sure .

but I saw kobe as a very good defender , occasionally a lockdown defender an excellent scorer who was slightly above average efficiency often to the detriment of the team who at times had much more efficient options to go to and kobe chose not to pass more often than he should have 

not the best teammate who often put himself ahead of the team 

he was usually clutch a good passer when he chose to do it and a good rebounder and a very physical player .

as for LeBron's resume for the top spot I don't think he has it I strongly believe that spot belongs to wilt chamberlain no one has ever forced so many changes upon the league with his mere presence because the league knew if it didn't the games would be less competitive add to that he was still the most dominant player of his time ....its a double edged sword for Jordan because the league actually changed a few rules to help him out.

Jordan was more clutch than LeBron but if you are going to judge them solely by their skills LeBron wins , physically capable of playing all 5 positions on both sides of the ball and capable of being a ball dominant scorer while keeping his teammates involved something generally only great point guards can do 

Jordan on the other hand needed a guy like pippen and another team oriented ballhandler whether it was a point guard or ron harper or a guy like toni kukoc to keep everyone involved .

it makes LeBron the easier guy to build around , he's had seasons where he was a better rebounder , passer , while scoring at a significantly more efficient clip than Jordan has ever done (I dont believe any other player has shot 60% from 2 and 40% from 3 let alone doing it while avg. 25+ points) so LeBron needs less specialization around him.

LeBron has made it to the finals in 6 of his 12 seasons and is the odds on favorite for 7 in 13 mj 6 for 15
LeBron made the finals at age 22 with a starting line up of eric snow larry hughes, drew gooden and ilgaustas....only larry hughes averaged 12 or more points a game at 14.9

Jordan has never been past the 1st round in any season(5 in total) scottie pippen wasn't playing alongside him.


----------



## BNJWOLVESFAN

Da Grinch said:


> well since I put him In the 10-20 range I really only have to name 10 but I feel it totally comes down to your criteria .
> 
> if its peak level of play he's closer to 20 if you make longevity of greatness a big factor obviously he comes closer to 10.
> 
> but there is a top echelon of players he simply isn't in.
> 
> wilt
> Russell
> kareem
> Michael Jordan
> LeBron
> 
> 
> then you have
> shaq
> Olajuwon
> Oscar Robertson(averaged a triple double over the course of 5 years)
> Durant
> magic(3 time mvp)
> bird(3 time mvp in consecutive years 84-86)
> curry
> Duncan
> moses Malone(3 time mvp when kareem , bird and magic running around)
> 
> (that's 14)
> 
> players who at their best have clearly been a notch above kobe's best at some point in their career.
> 
> kobe is to me in the next group with
> wade
> i.thomas
> McHale
> west
> Baylor
> dr. j
> chris paul
> westbrook
> david robinson
> garnett
> pippen
> barkley
> iverson
> karl Malone
> 
> great players some of whom you can make a very good argument that they belong higher but I just don't see it that way.
> 
> people have different ways of evaluating and what's more important to them to be sure .
> 
> but I saw kobe as a very good defender , occasionally a lockdown defender an excellent scorer who was slightly above average efficiency often to the detriment of the team who at times had much more efficient options to go to and kobe chose not to pass more often than he should have
> 
> not the best teammate who often put himself ahead of the team
> 
> he was usually clutch a good passer when he chose to do it and a good rebounder and a very physical player .
> 
> as for LeBron's resume for the top spot I don't think he has it I strongly believe that spot belongs to wilt chamberlain no one has ever forced so many changes upon the league with his mere presence because the league knew if it didn't the games would be less competitive add to that he was still the most dominant player of his time ....its a double edged sword for Jordan because the league actually changed a few rules to help him out.
> 
> Jordan was more clutch than LeBron but if you are going to judge them solely by their skills LeBron wins , physically capable of playing all 5 positions on both sides of the ball and capable of being a ball dominant scorer while keeping his teammates involved something generally only great point guards can do
> 
> Jordan on the other hand needed a guy like pippen and another team oriented ballhandler whether it was a point guard or ron harper or a guy like toni kukoc to keep everyone involved .
> 
> it makes LeBron the easier guy to build around , he's had seasons where he was a better rebounder , passer , while scoring at a significantly more efficient clip than Jordan has ever done (I dont believe any other player has shot 60% from 2 and 40% from 3 let alone doing it while avg. 25+ points) so LeBron needs less specialization around him.
> 
> LeBron has made it to the finals in 6 of his 12 seasons and is the odds on favorite for 7 in 13 mj 6 for 15
> LeBron made the finals at age 22 with a starting line up of eric snow larry hughes, drew gooden and ilgaustas....only larry hughes averaged 12 or more points a game at 14.9
> 
> Jordan has never been past the 1st round in any season(5 in total) scottie pippen wasn't playing alongside him.


Sorry but since i'm curious too, no where does it say the resume for LeBron to being in the top spot or in the top 5. Because based off of skills and resume, I have him in the top 10 at the very bottom. With Isiah Thomas at 11, LeBron is slowing down at only 31. He won't age the way Kobe did because he is so much heavier and doesn't have the offensive skills to do so. These next few years I feel will be important for LeBron's spot to either move up, stay put, or leave the 10th spot all together.


----------



## JusticeWhiteside

Da Grinch said:


> I don't rally see how kobe gets in a discussion with LeBron or Jordan for greatness.
> 
> statistically he doesn't come close and he's played on some of the most stacked teams in the past 20 years .
> 
> as a teammate he has actually driven good teammates away and is blamed for the 2003-04 team's self destruction in the finals
> 
> which is not to say he hasn't ben a great player but there is a level of difference when discussing their place in the history of the game.
> 
> Kobe is basically in the 10-20 range while LeBron and MJ have resumes capable of top 5 and even the top spot.


Thats what im saying...Like when you think of Lebron is all playoff games he has won. All the Washington games. The Detroit game in 07, the game against boston in 08 when PP and james had over 40. The series against Orlando were Lebron average 38 9 and 9. And thats not even the championship seasons. The game against Pacers in 2012 with Wade, Game 6 against Boston on the road in 2012. Where it was do or die for the Heat. Then his finals performance again OKC. Game 7 against the Spurs. And lastly the whole 2015 playoffs.


Lebrons resume is so much better than Kobes is digusting.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Da Grinch said:


> well since I put him In the 10-20 range I really only have to name 10 but I feel it totally comes down to your criteria .
> 
> if its peak level of play he's closer to 20 if you make longevity of greatness a big factor obviously he comes closer to 10.


If you say player X is at the 10-20 range you are saying he can be #11 or #19 , no? 

I understand the "criteria" aspect. What is YOURS, though?

For argument's sake, let's put them all (criteria) together: peak level, longevity, offensive prowess, defensive prowess, individual achievments, team achievments, leadership/untangibles, clutch play, you name it. 

As far as i can see it, there's only one aspect of the game Kobe didn't excell at, compared to the other great players in the discussion on all-time rankings: he wasn't a very efficient scorer.
There's also the fact that he won 3 championships as the second best player on the team.

That being said, he has it all: 5 championships, 1 MVP, multiple All-Nba selections on BOTH teams, perennial one of the top scorers in the league.



> but there is a top echelon of players he simply isn't in.
> 
> wilt
> Russell
> kareem
> Michael Jordan
> LeBron


I agree there's a "Sacred Four" that nor Kobe nor any other current player can touch TO THIS DATE: but Magic's there, not Lebron James,



> then you have
> shaq
> Olajuwon
> Oscar Robertson(averaged a triple double over the course of 5 years)
> Durant
> magic(3 time mvp)
> bird(3 time mvp in consecutive years 84-86)
> curry
> Duncan
> moses Malone(3 time mvp when kareem , bird and magic running around)
> (that's 14)


This is where we disagree, Kobe's "resume" is greater than Oscar's (great stats, never won). It's better than Olajuwon's and Moses's (ALL criteria considered. This players could have had a better peak (i'm sure they did) but didn't win as concistently as Kobe. Kobe was a better defensive player than Moses and a better offensive player than Hakeem.

Nor Durant, nor Lebron nor Curry have TILL THIS DATE greater careers than Kobe.

Obviously, i'll give you Bird, Duncan and Shaq.

That's seven.

I'm not saying i have Kobe as the sure-fire #8 player of all-time. I am saying that, all criteria considered, Kobe is arguable the 8th greatest player of all-time. Definately not on the 10-20 range. 



> players who at their best have clearly been a notch above kobe's best at some point in their career.


You are talking peak level of play. that's one of the criterias, but not the be-all-end-all. Unless you will defend Shaq as the GOAT.



> kobe is to me in the next group with
> wade
> i.thomas
> McHale
> west
> Baylor
> dr. j
> chris paul
> westbrook
> david robinson
> garnett
> pippen
> barkley
> iverson
> karl Malone


I'm absolutely baffled by this. Astonished, really.
Do you really think so little of Kobe Bryant you see him as a comparable player to Allen freaking Iverson? To a guy that at age 30 was no longer a top player in the league in Wade? To a second-fiddle (arguably the greatest, but) player like Pippen?
Of all the players you listed here i'd say only Karl Malone can even be in the discussion...



> great players some of whom you can make a very good argument that they belong higher but I just don't see it that way.


Not really, no.



> people have different ways of evaluating and what's more important to them to be sure .
> 
> but I saw kobe as a very good defender , occasionally a lockdown defender an excellent scorer who was slightly above average efficiency often to the detriment of the team who at times had much more efficient options to go to and kobe chose not to pass more often than he should have
> 
> not the best teammate who often put himself ahead of the team
> 
> he was usually clutch a good passer when he chose to do it and a good rebounder and a very physical player .


This is interesting... 
So Kobe was a very good defender AND an excelent scorer and you have him in the midst of non-defenders (relativelyspeaking) like Isiah, Baylor, Iverson, Paul, Dr, J, etc, who were also worse scorers than him? Doesn't compute.

All that's left is your percieved notion that Kobe was selfish as a player and teammate? Do you put that much clout on it, considering Kobe went to 7 NBA Finals as the best or second best player in the team? Is that how "detrimental" he was? 
How unselfish and good teammates were players like Larry Bird, Michael Jordan (ballhogg, punched teammates), Kareem (aloof, never a team leader), Lebron (got coaches fired), Barkley (soured all Philadelphians), Shaq (lazy-ass) and others?



> as for LeBron's resume for the top spot I don't think he has it I strongly believe that spot belongs to wilt chamberlain no one has ever forced so many changes upon the league with his mere presence because the league knew if it didn't the games would be less competitive add to that he was still the most dominant player of his time ....its a double edged sword for Jordan because the league actually changed a few rules to help him out.


I agree with Wilt. 



> Jordan was more clutch than LeBron but if you are going to judge them solely by their skills LeBron wins , physically capable of playing all 5 positions on both sides of the ball and capable of being a ball dominant scorer while keeping his teammates involved something generally only great point guards can do


On "skills" alone Pistol Pete would be in GOAT contention and Shaq wouldn't be a Top-50 player.
What matters is PRODUCTION. Wtf does it matter if a player can play 5 positions or not? Unless said player excells in all of them. And Lebron obviously didn't/doesn't. Nor Jordan, for that matter. Nor even Magic Johnson!



> Jordan on the other hand needed a guy like pippen and another team oriented ballhandler whether it was a point guard or ron harper or a guy like toni kukoc to keep everyone involved .
> 
> it makes LeBron the easier guy to build around , he's had seasons where he was a better rebounder , passer , while scoring at a significantly more efficient clip than Jordan has ever done (I dont believe any other player has shot 60% from 2 and 40% from 3 let alone doing it while avg. 25+ points) so LeBron needs less specialization around him.


This is very, very strange. So Jordan needed Pippen and other role players. But Lebron (the "easier guy to build around") needed to jump ship to play with Wade and Bosh and, later, Irving and Love to try and win after he failed?
What happened to the team that was built around Lebron James? Imploded after he quit (after 3 straight seasons not making it to the Finals).



> LeBron has made it to the finals in 6 of his 12 seasons and is the odds on favorite for 7 in 13 mj 6 for 15
> LeBron made the finals at age 22 with a starting line up of eric snow larry hughes, drew gooden and ilgaustas....only larry hughes averaged 12 or more points a game at 14.9
> 
> Jordan has never been past the 1st round in any season(5 in total) scottie pippen wasn't playing alongside him.


You DO know it's a purely situational reality, don't you? An Eastern team with Lebron James and adequate role players has a very good chance to make it to the Finals, considering the Eastern conference is not very competitive at the top. A team with Lebron James and two other All-Nbas WILL make the Finals EVERY season in the East. 
After the Pierce/KG/Allen Celtics (who were NOT the Bird-Celtics or the Bad Boys Pistons) who were there to stop a team with Lebron James to make it to the Finals? what happened when a team with Lebron James and role players made it to the Finals and faced a top team in the league?

You're a very strange evaluator (sp?) of talent, bro.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

BNJWOLVESFAN said:


> The better player I still feel is Kobe Bryant, he was a better offensive player


Was he?

LeBron has always been a much more efficient player, on top of being leagues above Kobe when it came to getting his teammates involved. LeBron always had a much more positive offensive impact on his team than Kobe ever did. 

I won't deny that Kobe was a better shooter on top of being a much better off the ball player, but LeBron at this point in his career has proven himself to be a much bigger difference maker on offense than Kobe ever did at any point in his career. 



BNJWOLVESFAN said:


> better defensively


No he wasn't.

Don't let Kobe's all defense team selections fool you, because, according to stats, he usually wasn't all that great of a defender. He was a terrific one on one defender. When it comes to team defense though, LeBron is in another league on top of being a great man to man defender when he wants to be, and he's got a list of people on his resume that he's shut down in the playoffs. 



BNJWOLVESFAN said:


> and you could go to him with the game on the line.


You could also go to Lebron with the game on the line.

It's no secret that there were some things Kobe excelled at and was obviously better at. In the end, with all things considered, and at their peaks, LeBron was better at both ends of the floor on top of being a better rebounder and a much better teammate.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

BNJWOLVESFAN said:


> Sorry but since i'm curious too, no where does it say the resume for LeBron to being in the top spot or in the top 5. Because based off of skills and resume, I have him in the top 10 at the very bottom. With Isiah Thomas at 11, LeBron is slowing down at only 31. He won't age the way Kobe did because he is so much heavier and doesn't have the offensive skills to do so. These next few years I feel will be important for LeBron's spot to either move up, stay put, or leave the 10th spot all together.


There's a lot on his resume to suggest he's a top five all time player. But we do have to see how the rest of his career shapes up. I'll be shocked if he doesn't average somewhere in the 22-27 PPG range in the next three-four years.


----------



## Da Grinch

PauloCatarino said:


> If you say player X is at the 10-20 range you are saying he can be [URL=http://www.basketballforum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 1[/URL] or [URL=http://www.basketballforum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 9[/URL] , no?
> 
> I understand the "criteria" aspect. What is YOURS, though?
> 
> For argument's sake, let's put them all (criteria) together: peak level, longevity, offensive prowess, defensive prowess, individual achievments, team achievments, leadership/untangibles, clutch play, you name it.
> 
> As far as i can see it, there's only one aspect of the game Kobe didn't excell at, compared to the other great players in the discussion on all-time rankings: he wasn't a very efficient scorer.
> There's also the fact that he won 3 championships as the second best player on the team.
> 
> That being said, he has it all: 5 championships, 1 MVP, multiple All-Nba selections on BOTH teams, perennial one of the top scorers in the league.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree there's a "Sacred Four" that nor Kobe nor any other current player can touch TO THIS DATE: but Magic's there, not Lebron James,


if magic were drafted by a less legendary franchise like the bulls (who lost the coin flip for magic) do you honestly believe Johnson would be so esteemed ?

I find it hard to believe ....it makes his "resume" pure luck for the 1st half of his career because he got drafted by a team that had not just kareem but a GM that fleeced the cavs not once but twice for the #1 overall pick(getting worthy as well) a HOF coach in riley and host of other good players.

in reality LeBron was better on both sides of the ball than Johnson 






> This is where we disagree, Kobe's "resume" is greater than Oscar's (great stats, never won). It's better than Olajuwon's and Moses's (ALL criteria considered. This players could have had a better peak (i'm sure they did) but didn't win as concistently as Kobe. Kobe was a better defensive player than Moses and a better offensive player than Hakeem.
> 
> Nor Durant, nor Lebron nor Curry have TILL THIS DATE greater careers than Kobe.
> 
> Obviously, i'll give you Bird, Duncan and Shaq.
> 
> That's seven.


big O won with kareem

Olajuwon was the best big of his era as kareem faded before shaq entered his prime, ...the only true window he had he was incredibly successful.

moses Malone was at his best a better defender than kobe , he was also all nba 1st team defense in a year when a number of big time defensive centers were around (82-83) (2nd team 78-79)and obviously a good defensive center is way more impactful than a similarly skillful 2 guard.

as far as current players in their prime such as curry Durant and LeBron , its important to note kobe's main attribute for greatness is as a scorer , in comparison kobe's scoring is not so eye popping 

kobe is middling in fg% 
doesn't draw an excessive amount of fouls 
mediocre for his time for a 2 guard as a 3 point shooter 

do you realize for a guy who made his career shooting 2 pointers kobe has only shot .500 from 2 1 time in his career (.510 in 12-13)

wade for comparison's sake has done it 8 times in what is now 13 seasons vs kobe's 1 in 20

curry right now is shooting .571 from 2
Durant right now is shooting .565 from 2
LeBron right now is shooting .559 from 2

and all 3 of them shoot 3's better than kobe , in fact kobe only shoots .330 for his career from 3 only a smidge higher than Jordan .327 who history knows as someone who didn't excel at 3 point shooting.




> I'm not saying i have Kobe as the sure-fire #8 player of all-time. I am saying that, all criteria considered, Kobe is arguable the 8th greatest player of all-time. Definately not on the 10-20 range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are talking peak level of play. that's one of the criterias, but not the be-all-end-all. Unless you will defend Shaq as the GOAT.
Click to expand...

he really is not a top 10 guy ....if his original team the hornets had kept him or the nets who wanted to draft him but he threatened to go to college if a team he didn't want to play for drafted him, can you honestly say we would be debating this ?

he is another guy who lucked into a resume his game would never have reached on its merits.


peak level of play is by far the most important and the longer that level is kept up the more important it is 

surviving and thriving are 2 very separate things.

shaq at his best still doesn't qualify



> I'm absolutely baffled by this. Astonished, really.
> Do you really think so little of Kobe Bryant you see him as a comparable player to Allen freaking Iverson? To a guy that at age 30 was no longer a top player in the league in Wade? To a second-fiddle (arguably the greatest, but) player like Pippen?
> Of all the players you listed here i'd say only Karl Malone can even be in the discussion...


its funny because I don't think you realize kobe and wade are similar in terms of greatness great scorers, very good defending 2 guards who lived off of 2's when the majority of shooting guards were good from 3 who each led teams to titles and played 2nd fiddle to titles

kobe 
25.1 pts 5.3 reb. 4.7ast 1.5 st 0.5 bl
.448 fg .479 2pointers .330 from 3 .836 from the ft line

wade
23.8 pts 4.8 reb. 5.8ast. 1.7 st. 0.9 bl
.488 fg .508 from 2 .286 from 3 .766 from the ft line

advanced stats

kobe 22.9 PER ts% .550 obpm 4.5 dbpm -0.5 bpm 3.9

wade 23.8 PER ts% .562 obpm 4.4 dbpm 1.1 bpm5.5







> This is interesting...
> So Kobe was a very good defender AND an excelent scorer and you have him in the midst of non-defenders (relativelyspeaking) like Isiah, Baylor, Iverson, Paul, Dr, J, etc, who were also worse scorers than him? Doesn't compute.
> 
> All that's left is your percieved notion that Kobe was selfish as a player and teammate? Do you put that much clout on it, considering Kobe went to 7 NBA Finals as the best or second best player in the team? Is that how "detrimental" he was?
> How unselfish and good teammates were players like Larry Bird, Michael Jordan (ballhogg, punched teammates), Kareem (aloof, never a team leader), Lebron (got coaches fired), Barkley (soured all Philadelphians), Shaq (lazy-ass) and others?


none of these guys are perfect players, there hasn't been one yet , however if you really want to get into how detrimental Kobe was to teams I suggest you read a few of the books written about the lakers during their championship runs.

that Kobe is on occasion a roadblock to success is indisputable from his low % "hero ball" to his rape allegations to his repeated antagonizing behavior to his teammates and coaches .

kobe definitely has been known to hurt as much as he help. 

Jordan was a significantly more efficient scorer than kobe and add to that he according to phil Jackson listened to his coaches something kobe often does not do even after telling them he will.

kobe was his most problematic player ever and he had dennis rodman for 3 seasons 

a player being a problem on occasion is a mistake , kobe wasn't making mistakes , its just who he was .






> On "skills" alone Pistol Pete would be in GOAT contention and Shaq wouldn't be a Top-50 player.
> What matters is PRODUCTION. Wtf does it matter if a player can play 5 positions or not? Unless said player excells in all of them. And Lebron obviously didn't/doesn't. Nor Jordan, for that matter. Nor even Magic Johnson!


production can be termed statistical accumulation in PER for career kobe is currently 23rd(22.94) and he may be 25th by the end of the season he could fall below west (22.89) and westbrook (22.84)

his best season PER wise is the 61st best season 

arguments on production does not help you.




> This is very, very strange. So Jordan needed Pippen and other role players. But Lebron (the "easier guy to build around") needed to jump ship to play with Wade and Bosh and, later, Irving and Love to try and win after he failed?
> What happened to the team that was built around Lebron James? Imploded after he quit (after 3 straight seasons not making it to the Finals).


everybody needs help but how much help is needed to be successful

if you need so much help they would be successful without you how great can you really be ?

saying the heat imploded without james or mentioning the cavs were so bad without him they garnered the 1st pick in the draft 3 times in the 4 seasons he was gone doesn't make james look bad .

the heat weren't that bad without james their best player remaining suffered from a nearly deadly blood clots in his leg and now I believe they are leading their division they are a decent team without james





> You DO know it's a purely situational reality, don't you? An Eastern team with Lebron James and adequate role players has a very good chance to make it to the Finals, considering the Eastern conference is not very competitive at the top. A team with Lebron James and two other All-Nbas WILL make the Finals EVERY season in the East.
> After the Pierce/KG/Allen Celtics (who were NOT the Bird-Celtics or the Bad Boys Pistons) who were there to stop a team with Lebron James to make it to the Finals? what happened when a team with Lebron James and role players made it to the Finals and faced a top team in the league?
> 
> You're a very strange evaluator (sp?) of talent, bro.


no not at all I am very clear I put peak level of play as the most important factor the higher the peak for the longer period of time the better I don't care who you play for I do accept putting a player in better situations gives him better opportunities but that is really it .

you on the other hand seem to clearly want to make luck a big part of where they are placed in things. I just think you judge the player , while you make excuses about the world championship caliber teams played on the way to the finals I simply evaluate the job he did in getting by them.

i judge guys on what they and what they have to do it .


----------



## PauloCatarino

Just some thoughts:



Da Grinch said:


> if magic were drafted by a less legendary franchise like the bulls (who lost the coin flip for magic) do you honestly believe Johnson would be so esteemed ?
> 
> I find it hard to believe ....it makes his "resume" pure luck for the 1st half of his career because he got drafted by a team that had not just kareem but a GM that fleeced the cavs not once but twice for the #1 overall pick(getting worthy as well) a HOF coach in riley and host of other good players.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really understand this point.
> Should Tim Duncan be criticized because he was drafted by an excellent organization, with an already established great player and with arguably the greatest coach ever?
> What about Bill Russell, with the Celtics, Cousy and Sharman and Auerbach?
> 
> Secondly: Magic's impact was pretty obvious. Not only the Lakers won 13 more games with the same roster (plus Magic), he was the Finals MVP, after an astounding Game 6 wthout Kareem.
> And it was Westhead at the helm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> big O won with kareem
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're right. My bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Olajuwon was the best big of his era as kareem faded before shaq entered his prime, ...the only true window he had he was incredibly successful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hakeem was a great player, no doubt. But he wasn't THAT successfull. Unless you want to ignore the 5 seasons his team went out in the first round or the other season they missed the playoffs. This before he won both championships.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> moses Malone was at his best a better defender than kobe , he was also all nba 1st team defense in a year when a number of big time defensive centers were around (82-83) (2nd team 78-79)and obviously a good defensive center is way more impactful than a similarly skillful 2 guard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Moses had 2 all-D selections in a miriad of seasons. Pales in comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as far as current players in their prime such as curry Durant and LeBron , its important to note kobe's main attribute for greatness is as a scorer , in comparison kobe's scoring is not so eye popping
> 
> kobe is middling in fg%
> doesn't draw an excessive amount of fouls
> mediocre for his time for a 2 guard as a 3 point shooter
> 
> do you realize for a guy who made his career shooting 2 pointers kobe has only shot .500 from 2 1 time in his career (.510 in 12-13)
> 
> wade for comparison's sake has done it 8 times in what is now 13 seasons vs kobe's 1 in 20
> 
> curry right now is shooting .571 from 2
> Durant right now is shooting .565 from 2
> LeBron right now is shooting .559 from 2
> 
> and all 3 of them shoot 3's better than kobe , in fact kobe only shoots .330 for his career from 3 only a smidge higher than Jordan .327 who history knows as someone who didn't excel at 3 point shooting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm well aware Kobe's weakness is his shooting efficiency. I've already stated it. But you were pairing him with Allen Iverson, for Christ sake!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he really is not a top 10 guy ....if his original team the hornets had kept him or the nets who wanted to draft him but he threatened to go to college if a team he didn't want to play for drafted him, can you honestly say we would be debating this ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If, if, if.... Whose to say what would have happened?
> If Magic started on the Bulls... If Kobe started on the Hornets.... If Jordan was selected by the Sixers, ad having to play with Moses and Dr. J, how many years would he have been a second-fiddle player? If Duncan started on the Grizzlies, would he ever win a championship? Etc., etc...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he is another guy who lucked into a resume his game would never have reached on its merits.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Huh... What do you think of Kobe's "game" from 2007-2008 till the 2009-2010 season?
> In those 3 seasons alone didn't Kobe accomplish more than ALL of the players you paired him previously?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> its funny because I don't think you realize kobe and wade are similar in terms of greatness great scorers, very good defending 2 guards who lived off of 2's when the majority of shooting guards were good from 3 who each led teams to titles and played 2nd fiddle to titles
> 
> kobe
> 25.1 pts 5.3 reb. 4.7ast 1.5 st 0.5 bl
> .448 fg .479 2pointers .330 from 3 .836 from the ft line
> 
> wade
> 23.8 pts 4.8 reb. 5.8ast. 1.7 st. 0.9 bl
> .488 fg .508 from 2 .286 from 3 .766 from the ft line
> 
> advanced stats
> 
> kobe 22.9 PER ts% .550 obpm 4.5 dbpm -0.5 bpm 3.9
> 
> wade 23.8 PER ts% .562 obpm 4.4 dbpm 1.1 bpm5.5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Such similar players. Yet one has 1 championship as the Franchis player. Other has 2. One has 2 championships as the second-fiddle. Other has 3. One has 1 Top-2 finish in scoring for a season. Other has 6. One has 3 all-D selections (second team). Other has 12. Etc., etc.
> So... no. They are not comparable players.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> none of these guys are perfect players, there hasn't been one yet , however if you really want to get into how detrimental Kobe was to teams I suggest you read a few of the books written about the lakers during their championship runs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Would that include the books written by a coach who came back to coach Kobe sans-Shaq?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that Kobe is on occasion a roadblock to success is indisputable from his low % "hero ball" to his rape allegations to his repeated antagonizing behavior to his teammates and coaches .
> 
> kobe definitely has been known to hurt as much as he help.
> 
> Jordan was a significantly more efficient scorer than kobe and add to that he according to phil Jackson listened to his coaches something kobe often does not do even after telling them he will.
> 
> kobe was his most problematic player ever and he had dennis rodman for 3 seasons
> 
> a player being a problem on occasion is a mistake , kobe wasn't making mistakes , its just who he was .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is all fine and dandy, BUT:
> Magic got his coach fired.
> Lebron got his coach fired.
> Jordan punched teammates and got one teammate (Hodges) out of the team alltogether.
> Shaq was lazy and provided bad example to his teammates.
> Kareem wasn't liked by anyone;
> Hakeem had his troubles with Rockets' brass.
> Etc., etc..
> Still, they won. Same with Kobe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> production can be termed statistical accumulation in PER for career kobe is currently 23rd(22.94) and he may be 25th by the end of the season he could fall below west (22.89) and westbrook (22.84)
> 
> his best season PER wise is the 61st best season
> 
> arguments on production does not help you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Off course. That's why T-Mac, David Robinson, Chris Paul and Anthony Davis (all had a season over 30 PER or close) took the NBA by storm, right?
> Stats don't tell the whole picture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> everybody needs help but how much help is needed to be successful
> 
> if you need so much help they would be successful without you how great can you really be ?
> 
> saying the heat imploded without james or mentioning the cavs were so bad without him they garnered the 1st pick in the draft 3 times in the 4 seasons he was gone doesn't make james look bad .
> 
> the heat weren't that bad without james their best player remaining suffered from a nearly deadly blood clots in his leg and now I believe they are leading their division they are a decent team without james
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was talking about Lebron's alleged hability to be "easier to build around"... We saw a team "built" around Lebron once, in his first stint with the Cavs. We know how that worked out. Since that, he has pursued joining stacked teams.
> When the Lakers rebuilt the team around Kobe (although Kobe was in his prime - not the same regarding a rookie Lebron) it took them 4 years to get back on the Finals. Winning 2 championships the following 2 seasons. Simply amazing, considering Kobe is so detrimental to a team and is aparently "hard to build around"...
> And no, i don't think Gasol was better than Wade nor Bynum better than Bosh.
Click to expand...


----------



## e-monk

the dude has Durant listed ahead of Magic - why would you even bother with him? I would just give him up as a lost cause on an irving-esque scale right there


----------



## Da Grinch

e-monk said:


> the dude has Durant listed ahead of Magic - why would you even bother with him? I would just give him up as a lost cause on an irving-esque scale right there


those groups really were not in a literal order I thought it was clear I was ranking players in tiers, but you do realize he is 3rd all time in scoring average behind wilt and MJ?


----------



## e-monk

scoring average? GTFOH


----------



## Da Grinch

e-monk said:


> scoring average? GTFOH


if he retires today he is a 1st ballot hall of fame guy 

if you are going to compare him to a guy known primarily as a scorer 

and all of Durant's scoring numbers are better , not just how much he scores but also much more efficiently and even where (2 pointers, 3's, ft's)...and without a selfish label attached to him in the process .

you and your dismissive attitude needs to be explained


----------



## e-monk

he's 27, his average will go down as he exits his prime - at age 27 Wilt's scoring average would have been in the 40s per game - using KDs scoring average at age 27 to argue for hall entrance requires a dismissive response - that's not to say he doesn't have an argument but his current ppg is not part of it


----------



## JusticeWhiteside

So who is the mod thats going to remove Kobe from the list. Its between Bron and Jordan


----------



## e-monk

that's some good Kobe trollin right there - suck it Justice


----------



## JusticeWhiteside

e-monk said:


> that's some good Kobe trollin right there - suck it Justice



Kobe is not in the same league as those two. Absolutely no way.


----------



## buduan

Lebron needs to be removed from the discussion. If not for hiding out in a pathetic conference his entire career, and jumping from super team to super team nobody would be talking about him being the GOAT. What do Lebron fans point too when touting his greatness? All those Finals appearances. What is it now? 8 in a row. How many would he have been too if he spent his entire career in the WC like Kobe? One? None?

He's the Floyd Mayweather of the NBA. Very carefully calculating a plan to maximize the best possible result. And even with that he has a pathetic Finals record.

BTW, Kareem Abdul Jabaar is the GOAT. Jordan and Kobe can't hold a candle to him.


----------



## doctordrizzay

buduan said:


> Lebron needs to be removed from the discussion. If not for hiding out in a pathetic conference his entire career, and jumping from super team to super team nobody would be talking about him being the GOAT. What do Lebron fans point too when touting his greatness? All those Finals appearances. What is it now? 8 in a row. How many would he have been too if he spent his entire career in the WC like Kobe? One? None?
> 
> He's the Floyd Mayweather of the NBA. Very carefully calculating a plan to maximize the best possible result. And even with that he has a pathetic Finals record.
> 
> BTW, Kareem Abdul Jabaar is the GOAT. Jordan and Kobe can't hold a candle to him.


If Lebron had the teammates Kobe and Jordan had. He wouldnt have to leave Cavs in the first place. Kobe LITERALLY had a player better than him for his first 3 rings. Shaq won finals MVP 3 times. There is not one player of all time in the NBA that would do that to Lebron. 

Lebron beat the all might 73 win team coming from 3-1 down. Impossible? Nah, Lebron lead BOTH teams in every stat. He is without question, best of all time.


----------



## RollWithEm




----------



## CHRISCO17

*THE DISRESPECT FOR KOBE MUST STOP!!!*


----------



## e-monk

*Re: THE DISRESPECT FOR KOBE MUST STOP!!!*

stop


----------



## RollWithEm

@PauloCatarino with the double quote!


----------



## Darren24

*Kobe could beat LBJ and MJ in a 1on1*

Kobe is an elite defender and he can score over practically anyone.


----------



## BalllikeMike

Check this out 
⬇⬇⬇
https://ckk.ai/MichaelJ 
He the real Goat I'm telling y'all.


----------



## miyabhai101

Well it is probably true. I bet he sprinkles on some "MJ" cologne before the games as well....


----------



## Bh120

lakers1 said:


> yeah ur righ rifleman it is true but it gets me mad when ppl compared james to bryant when they say he is better because right now he is nothing he is only a high school ball player i remember they said their was a guy who was better than jordan but then unfortunately died





Vinsanity said:


> *LeBron James = Kobe Bryant*
> 
> Exact same player....looks like James will be better though


How can even make this comparison. This is a no brainer and even Koby will be remembered for his on and off the court interactions. Lebron not so much.


----------



## miyabhai101

miyabhai101 said:


> Well it is probably true. I bet he sprinkles on some "MJ" cologne before the games as well....


What you guys think about my opinion? tubemate authorityapk.com


----------



## alfred0809

Lebron recently said that THE BLOCK cemented him as the GOAT. Even as a diehard Bulls fan, I have to agree. He's the most versatile player and best 'positive impacter for a team' of all-time. VidMate Teatv Shareit


----------



## katesmith1304

kobe is glory for NBA


----------



## Boarman11

LeBron is the best athlete

MJ is the best scorer

Kobe has the best work ethic

Personally I think LeBron still gets way too much hate for everything. Going to Miami and choking against the Mavs. But also he took a Cavs team that lacked any 2nd star needed for a championship run.

LeBron has shown he can dominate and can backpack a team to the finals. He just needs some help when he gets there, just like any team that wants to win


----------



## simba179

Cristiano Ronldo shows his workout routine ! unbelievable !
see here!


----------



## peterj

i believe most basketball dunkers use this https://bit.ly/2ZmIevK


----------



## KciBaller

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## billsbiz862

Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson here and see for yourself


----------



## mr.vin

Vinsanity said:


> *LeBron James = Kobe Bryant*
> 
> Exact same player....looks like James will be better though


click this link bruh to look the best player👇


Vinsanity said:


> *LeBron James = Kobe Bryant*
> 
> Exact same player....looks like James will be better though








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## Joan Babbage

Vinsanity said:


> *LeBron James = Kobe Bryant*
> 
> Exact same player....looks like James will be better though


Who is your favorite basketball player? I love to Abduljabbar.


----------



## Joniha

Wow, this basketball thread is older than me. Amazing.


----------



## Joniha

There is a Best Outdoor Basketball blog, do you guys trust these guides while purchasing basketball balls?


----------



## Beagle916

Its easily MJ. The other two are legends but theirs a clear gap.


----------



## jayballzzz

Wow...I just found a video about Lebron James Chasing Michael Jordan to be a GOAT


----------



## jayballzzz

Another Rare Old Video of Michael Jordan made 3 points from halfcourt at the practice when he was A Wizard,,Old but Gold Video


----------



## RTTRTED5

Simply put: No he can't be himself. he'd rather be someone else. We all know who that is, right yalla shoot new?


----------



## Silk

I was 17 years old, and still a moderator of this ancient site IIRC, when this thread was posted. LeBron hadn't even started his NBA career yet.

I think MJ is the best.


----------



## RaymondBowles

Viewers enjoy watching NBA games or any other game where the vertical jump is high. It is common to associate high-jumping athletes with basketball. Sports dunks therefore provide the most action, which explains why they're the best part. If you're an NBA fan, you'll undoubtedly see moments when some players appear to be floating, and moments when their achievements seem to be impactful. According to the NBA, Michael Jordan is the only player who has ever cleared 48 inches explained here. Jordan's vertical jump was also tested on tour by the U.S. Olympic team in 1984 . It is confirmed that Jordan achieved a 48-inch vertical leap. With their hops, some guys have picked up their fans' feet over time.


----------



## Pokitren

RaymondBowles said:


> Viewers enjoy watching NBA games or any other game where the vertical jump is high. It is common to associate high-jumping athletes with basketball. Sports dunks therefore provide the most action, which explains why they're the best part. If you're an NBA fan, you'll undoubtedly see moments when some players appear to be floating, and moments when their achievements seem to be impactful. According to the NBA, Michael Jordan is the only player who has ever cleared 48 inches explained here. Jordan's vertical jump was also tested on tour by the U.S. Olympic team in 1984 . It is confirmed that Jordan achieved a 48-inch vertical leap. With their hops, some guys have picked up their fans' feet over time.


I don't remember who, but I think that record was broken. I could be wrong, but I heard that figure about another player.


----------



## aarondavis31790

How about this for a Drama King!








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## kenneth10

Oke.io i love this video


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## Davidjamson

I Think,
isolation scoring is paramount late in big games. And boy would it be a delight to watch prime Jordan -- one-time Defensive Player of the Year.
If any idea then answer it.


----------



## MDA

ball-dominators like Lebron can't win with lane-cloggers - they need spacing, which didn't exist in prior eras. otoh, jordan was mvp with lane-cloggers and a bad team in 88'.


----------



## lindarwilliams2212

[뽀찌 사이트] 슬롯머신
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## shinewatson

Vinsanity said:


> yup.....i got like 10 basketball videotapes with him in it.....and he rules the games...eats his defenders up


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