# The new Top 10 players in the league



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Who are they? We've come a long way from Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe and McGrady dominating most lists. You could argue that 4 of those 5 aren't even top five any more, so I figured one of these threads was necessary. I like to do these threads every now and then to get a consensus on how elite players around the league are ranked by the folks who frequent this site. Post your lists.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

1.) Kobe Bryant is better than everyone by a lot IMO.

2.) Dwyane Wade
3.) Tim Duncan
4.) Allen Iverson
5.) Steve Nash
6.) Dirk Nowitzki
7.) Vince Carter
8.) Paul Pierce
9.) Carmelo Anthony
10.) LeBron James


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

1) Kobe Bryant
2) LeBron James
3) Dirk Nowitzki
4) Steve Nash
5) Yao Ming
6) Tim Duncan
7) Dwyane Wade
8) Darko Milicic
9) Allen Iverson
10) Paul Pierce
11) Gilbert Arenas

Next up: Elton Brand, Kevin Garnett and Carmello Anthony

Strange list, but it feels right to me..


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## essaywhuman (Aug 10, 2005)

IMO:

1. Kobe
2. Duncan
3. Lebron
4. Elton
5. Wade
6. Iverson
7. Dirk
8. KG
9. Shaq
10a. Nash
10b. TMac/Pierce/Vince/Carmelo/Yao/Arenas

Hopefully I didn't forget anybody. 

[edit]
I can't believe I forgot KG. KG's definitely in the top 10, but I can't keep those other guys off the list.

[edit again]
I'm placing KG at 8 and moving Shaq and Nash down 1.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

23AJ said:


> 1.) Kobe Bryant is better than everyone by a lot IMO.
> 
> 2.) Dwyane Wade
> 3.) Tim Duncan
> ...


I'm surprised with VC ranked up this high..

I disagree with your list but i would put Kobe first myself in terms of being the best basketball player out there just not the most impactful player.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

Mavs Maniac said:


> 1) Kobe Bryant
> 2) LeBron James
> 3) Dirk Nowitzki
> 4) Steve Nash
> ...



I'm so sorry HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.

That was a joke right?


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

You're right Sir Patchwork, the perennial Kobe/TMac/KG/TD/Shaq has now changed. It was rock solid for 3 or 4 years. Im basing mines off previous seasons as well, not just this year, so here we go:

1. Kobe Bryant
2a. Kevin Garnett
2b. Lebron James
4. Tim Duncan
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Steve Nash
7. Allen Iverson
8. Tracy McGrady
9. Dirk Nowitzki
10. Shaquille O'Neal

Yes, I might have left some of you guys' fav. players out, dont crucify me for it.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

23AJ said:


> 1.) Kobe Bryant is better than everyone by a lot IMO.
> 
> 2.) Dwyane Wade
> 3.) Tim Duncan
> ...


Are you sure LeBron is 10 maybe you meant to put Gilbert Arenas there.


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## Pj5 (Sep 15, 2005)

In no particular order.

1)Kobe
2)Duncan
3)Dirk
4)KG
5)Artest
6)Paul Pierce
7)Vince Carter
8)Dwyane Wade
9)Gilbert Arenas
10)Lebron James


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

When healthy. 

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Elton Brand
5. Dwyane Wade
6. LeBron James
7. Tracy McGrady
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Steve Nash
10. Ron Artest

Very small gaps too. Number 10 can outplay number 1 on any given night (ironic enough he did tonight). Artest hasn't been playing the whole season, but in his time you could argue that he has been playing MVP type basketball. All 10 guys, when healthy, play MVP basketball.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> I'm surprised with VC ranked up this high..
> 
> I disagree with your list but i would put Kobe first myself in terms of being the best basketball player out there just not the most impactful player.


Vince Carter is underrated because he's not a top 3 player. However he's easily still in the middle of the top 10 guy's in the league. I Love Carters game the guy is amazing.


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

The "new" list is usually dominated by guards and SFs.

my list:

Kobe
LBJ
Wade
Pierce
Iverson
Nowitzki
Brand
Arenas
T-Mac
Nash


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## essaywhuman (Aug 10, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> When healthy.
> 
> 1. Kobe Bryant
> 2. Tim Duncan
> ...


Me and you are the only ones to mention Elton so far.
I thought he'd get more recognition than that. Dude's a mother****ing beast.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Lebron James
3. Steve Nash
4. Allen Iverson
5. Vince Carter
6. Paul Pierce
7. Dwayne Wade
8. Yao Ming
9. Gilbert Arenas
10. Dirk/Shaq/Duncan


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Tim Duncan
3. LeBron James
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Allen Iverson
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Steve Nash
9. Tracy McGrady
10. Elton Brand

Hard for me to do. I've probally made a couple mistakes maybe left someone off I dunno.


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## GTA Addict (Jun 27, 2005)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. LeBron James
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Elton Brand
5. Steve Nash
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Paul Pierce
9. Allen Iverson
10. Gilbert Arenas

Duncan is left off only due to injury. It's hard to say where he'd be if he was healthy.


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## Samael (Sep 1, 2005)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Lebron James
3. Steve Nash
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Allen Iverson
6. Dwayne Wade
7. Paul Pierce
8. Dirk Nowitski
9. Elton Brand
10. Yao/Shaq/Duncan


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

mang said:


> Me and you are the only ones to mention Elton so far.
> I thought he'd get more recognition than that. Dude's a mother****ing beast.


Viewing out of LA, I'm sure me and you have seen him play more than most folks posting here. Brando is playing like a prime Karl Malone this year.


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

so far, the majority of ppl here agree that Kobe is the #1 player in their lists....hmmm :yes:


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

mang said:


> Me and you are the only ones to mention Elton so far.
> I thought he'd get more recognition than that. Dude's a mother****ing beast.


hes in my list too....

just wanted to say that.. :biggrin:


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Elton Brand
3. Tim Duncan
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Paul Pierce
6. Lebron James
7. Dwyane Wade
8. Steve Nash
9. Dirk Nowitzki
10. Yao Ming


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## Samael (Sep 1, 2005)

Just a question are people putting players in their list because of their team success this year? or is it solely on individual performance regardless of the team record?

Cause I see TD pretty high up on everybody's list and he is really sh*t this year which is too bad.


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## essaywhuman (Aug 10, 2005)

gio30584 said:


> hes in my list too....
> 
> just wanted to say that.. :biggrin:


You just barely got in that post before I did, so you're excused. :biggrin:

But seriously, those people who don't have him in their top 10's at LEAST, why not?


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## essaywhuman (Aug 10, 2005)

osprey said:


> Cause I see TD pretty high up on everybody's list and he is really sh*t this year which is too bad.


Tim's #2 on my list based on reputation and team success over the years. Even if he hasn't been his usual self this year, he's still my #1 feared player as a Laker fan.


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## DiceMoney (Mar 4, 2006)

1 D Wade
2 Nash
3 T Duncan cause he is hurt.
4 Dirk Nowitski
5 Lebron
6 Brand
7 Shaq
8 Kobe
9 A.I
10 K.G


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## Samael (Sep 1, 2005)

I'm going to tally all the lists here later and try to post an official BBB.net Top 10 players list.
It is according to player position there needs to be a gap between between 1st and 2nd just like racing. Tell me if this scoring method seems fair if not suggest a better one.

1. 10 Points
2. 8 Points
3. 7 Points
4. 6 Points
5. 5 Points
6. 4 Points
7. 3 Points
8. 2 Points
9. 1 Point
10. 1 Point


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

*As of this moment*
1. Kobe Bryant (Best scorer in the league)
2. Dwayne Wade (Having a fantastic season, carrying the Heat)
3. Steve Nash (Best offensive weapon in the world)
4. Elton Brand (Huge season MVP material)
5. Kevin Garnett (Still pretty much the same KG but minus the wins)
6. Lebron James (Amazing numbers, doesnt have the winning edge yet)
7. Dirk Nowitski (See Brand)
8. Paul Pierce (Amazing season, under rated due to lack of team success)
9. Tim Duncan (Injured, but still impactful)
10. Allen Iverson (Same A.I, what ever that means)

*Just outside.*
Shawn Marion (Arguably top 3 or 2 out of ALL Forwards in terms of production)
Yao Ming (Monster second half of the season, could be the MAIN big men next season)
Vince Carter (Great season so far, just doesnt have the record considering his team)
Shaquille O'Neal (Numbers are down, but still impactful, declined a bit.)


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## Samael (Sep 1, 2005)

For those who are curious these are my tallys according to this scoring system:

1. 10 Points
2. 8 Points
3. 7 Points
4. 6 Points
5. 5 Points
6. 4 Points
7. 3 Points
8. 2 Points
9. 1 Point
10. 1 Point

I know it's not perfect but it is as close as I could think of to get the median votes of this thread.

Here's the list:

1. Kobe Bryant-------128 Points
2. Lebron James-------83 Points
3. Dwyane Wade-------75 Points
4. Tim Duncan---------58 Points
5. Steve Nash-----------56 Points
6. Kevin Garnett--------54 Points
7. Dirk Nowitzki-------46 Points
8. Elton Brand---------42 Points
9. Allen Iverson---------34 Points
10. Paul Pierce-----------28 Points

HM:
Vince Carter----------12 Points
Yao Ming--------------9 Points
Shaquille O'Neal-----8 Points
Tracy McGrady--------8 Points


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Excuse my maths, but is Gilbert Arenas not on 10 points?


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## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Steve Nash
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Paul Pierce
7. LeBron James
8. Ron Artest
9. Shawn Marion
10. Elton Brand


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## Samael (Sep 1, 2005)

Mavs Maniac said:


> Excuse my maths, but is Gilbert Arenas not on 10 points?


It is 10 but I didn't bother to count the lists of people that had more than 10 players in them Arenas is mostly listed as the 11th.


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## Samael (Sep 1, 2005)

Carbo04 said:


> 1. Kobe Bryant
> 2. Steve Nash
> 3. Kevin Garnett
> 4. Dwyane Wade
> ...


Man, you must really like KG.


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## matt! (Feb 21, 2005)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Tim Duncan
3. Steve Nash
4. LeBron James
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Ron Artest
9. Elton Brand
10. Carmelo Anthony
11. Paul Pierce


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> When healthy.
> 
> 1. Kobe Bryant
> 2. Tim Duncan
> ...



When healthy Amare is top 4 easily on that list. Steve Nash would have to be considered top 5 by everyone after likely back to back MVP seasons.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

1. Kobe
2. Tim Duncan -healthy
3. Lebron James
4. Dwayne Wade
5. Yao Ming
6. Elton Brand
7. Shaq
8. Nash
9. Tracy McGrady -healthy
10. KG


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## matt! (Feb 21, 2005)

Amareca said:
 

> When healthy Amare is top 4 easily on that list. Steve Nash would have to be considered top 5 by everyone after likely back to back MVP seasons.


I'm just waiting to see how healthy Amare is when he comes back. If he's the same old beast, he gets his spot back. It's sure gonna be tough to knock someone off though. Top 10 is getting awfully crowded.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Remember when people slept on Elton Brand? Me, Patchwork, and a couple others on this board have been pimping Elton's ability for years. Finally he has a team to make him look good. Anyway, my top 10 in order, based mostly on this season but partially last year too: 

1a) Kobe Bryant
1b) Dwyane Wade
3) LeBron James
4) Steve Nash
5) Kevin Garnett
6) Elton Brand
7) Gilbert Arenas
8) Dirk Nowitzki
9) Tim Duncan
10) Shaquille O'Neal

I left Tmac off the list because he has played poorly for his standards this year and has been injured. Not sure he'll ever be top 5 again if his back problems don't heal up. Here's hoping. Basically he's #11. Allen Iverson and Paul Pierce would be right there next to Tmac, but again, only because he has been injured this year and because AI and Pierce are quite easily having career years. I should also say that Ming is right next to Pierce and Iverson, and will quite easily vault himself into the top 10 no problem if he keeps up anything close to his current play for the forseeable future. People sleep on the attention Ming draws. His impact is sizable. 

I left Ron off the top 10 list because he's been insane for a while now. That said, I believe Ron is real close to top 10 (top 15 at worst right behind Ming, who's only going to go up). He'll cool off in Sac IMO, or at worst be traded someplace else where he's happier. He's not on the list simply because he hasn't played a lot the last couple seasons and because I need to see him consistently be as good as he was two years ago. 

Also, Amare would be on this list if he played at all this year, but he hasn't. Who knows how his knee will hold up, but hopefully he's back to being a top 5-7 player. If his 05 season is any indication, that is. And I'm quite sure it is.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Oh, and Carmelo Anthony is #16. Christ there are a lot of good perimeter players this year. That 03 class of Wade, LeBron, and Carmelo has really helped make the NBA far more exciting. Then you have the emergence of Artest over the last few years after being slept on as a Bull, and Arenas' breakout year last season and now again this season. And that's not to mention the crop of PGs that'll be great in a couple years; like Deron Williams and Raymond Felton. Oh, and of course the unanimous ROY, Chris Paul. You're looking at a future HOF'er there folks.


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## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

osprey said:


> Man, you must really like KG.



Opps. My mistake. Put Dirk where the second KG is.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Steve Nash
3. LeBron James
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Yao Ming
7. Elton Brand
8. Paul Pierce
9. Kevin Garnett
10. Tim Duncan

Just missing out: Shawn Marion, Gilbert Arenas, Allen Iverson

Unranked due to injuries: Amare Stoudemire, Tracy McGrady

This is more based on where the players are _right now_ and where they are going.


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## The_Legend_23 (Dec 10, 2005)

1- Kobe Bryant
2-Lebron James
3-Elton Brand
4-Dirk Nowitzki
5-Yao
6-Paul Pierce
7-Steve Nash
8-Dwyane Wade
9-Gilbert Arenas
10-Allen Iverson


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## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

1] Kobe Bryant
2] Steve Nash
3] Dwayne Wade
4] Tim Duncan
5] Dirk Nowitzki
6] LeBron James
7] Allen Iverson
8] Carmelo Anthony
9] Kevin Garnett
10] Yao/Shaq/T-Mac/VC/Pierce


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

1) Kobe
2) Duncan
3) Lebron
4) Dirk
5) AI
6) Wade
7) Yao
8) Nash
9) T-Mac
10) KG

Homerism aside, I think Yao needs a full season playing at the level he's at right now to solidify his spot in the top 10. Wade's been great and will be recognized even more as Shaq's effectiveness declines.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. LeBron James
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Allen Iverson
5. Steve Nash
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Paul Pierce
9. Elton Brand
10. Gilbert Arenas/Vince Carter

When healthy (probably next year) McGrady and Duncan will be on this list.

This time next year

1. Kobe Bryant
2. LeBron James
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Amare Stoudemire
5. Tim Duncan
6. Tracy McGrady
7. Carmello Anthony
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Gilbert Arenas/Allen Iverson
10. Chris Bosh/Dwight Howard


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Steve Nash
3) Allen Iverson
4) Dirk Nowitzki
5) Dwyane Wade
6) LeBron James
7) Tim Duncan
8) Paul Pierce
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Vince Carter


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## Nikos (Jun 5, 2002)

1A. Kobe Bryant
1B. Dwayne Wade

3A. Kevin Garnett
3B. Elton Brand
3C. Lebron James

6. Dirk Nowitski

7. Tim Duncan (injuries)

8A. Paul Pierce
8B. Allen Iverson

10A. Gilbert Arenas
10B. Steve Nash


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

1- Lebron/kobe

3- Tim Duncan
4- Allen Iverson
5- Kevin Garnett
6- Dirk
7- Vince Carter
8- Dwayne wade
9-Paul pierce
10- Carmelo Anthony.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. LeBron James
3. Steve Nash
4. Elton Brand
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Paul Pierce
8. Kevin Garnett
9. (the homer pick) Allen Iverson
10. (just because Duncan is getting in that top 10 and this guy isn't getting any votes) Dwight Howard

Just Missed: Shawn Marion, Yao, Vince, Arenas, Carmelo Anthony
Missing Due to Injury: T-Mac, Amare


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

I normally dont do these but here you go

Kobe Bryant


Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
LeBron James
Dwayne Wade
Allen Iverson
Elton Brand
Steve Nash
Drik Nowitski
Gilbert Arenas


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> 1- Lebron/kobe
> 
> 3- Tim Duncan
> 4- Allen Iverson
> ...


Vince Carter over Dwyane Wade? Over Paul Pierce? AND Carmelo Anthony? Come on man... what are you smoking? 

If that isn't just a blatant "stan" pick I don't know what is. VC isn't even close to being top ten right now. Carmelo's numbers are very similar to VC's, but Paul Pierce and ESPECIALLY Dwyane Wade have played HEAD and Shoulders above Vince Carter. Where is Steve Nash on yout list? Or Elton Brand? Hell, even Yao Ming? All are playing better than Vince Carter. Even the likes of Shawn Marion are on a higher level than VC right now.


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

1. Allen Iverson
2. Kobe Bryant
3. DWade
4. Elton Brand
5. T-Mac
6. Nash
7. Shawn Marion
8. Dirk
9. Arenas
10. LBJ


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

1. Kobe (crazy numbers all year)
2. Wade (insane in the past month, and terrific all year)
3. Lebron (falling sort of off as of late
4. Brand- MVP worthy type player
5. Nash- mvp doesnt equal best player
6. Nowitski- moving on up
7. Garnett- still does it game after game. 
8. Duncan- when healthy would be up. Taking a smaller role this season and not impressive
9. Tmac- get healthy tmac. And dont be so streaky
10. Shaq/Arenas/Pierce/Iverson- I cant leave any off.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> Vince Carter over Dwyane Wade? Over Paul Pierce? AND Carmelo Anthony? Come on man... what are you smoking?
> 
> If that isn't just a blatant "stan" pick I don't know what is. VC isn't even close to being top ten right now. Carmelo's numbers are very similar to VC's, but Paul Pierce and ESPECIALLY Dwyane Wade have played HEAD and Shoulders above Vince Carter. Where is Steve Nash on yout list? Or Elton Brand? Hell, even Yao Ming? All are playing better than Vince Carter. Even the likes of Shawn Marion are on a higher level than VC right now.




if VC isn't close to top 10, then you need to see a clinic. yes Paul pierce is having a great season, he needs to get his team to the playoffs to say he's on vc's level or if he's better than him. Last year, kidd a & carter carried the whole team to the playoffs and carter was the main part. Beside these two, we had noone, and Nenad didn't do that well except for the playoffs. Now paul pierce had ricky davis in the begining of the season , now he has Wally, West is not bad at all, Al jefferson is certainly better than any of our post guys that we had last season. if he's that good, he should make the playoffs. and No, carmelo is not on vc's level yet. Now Dwayne Wade you might be right, i think they're both the same. I just gave vince the edge because he toped him three time in Head to Head. But other than that, i think D-wade and VC are now on the same level.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> if VC isn't close to top 10, then you need to see a clinic. yes Paul pierce is having a great season, he needs to get his team to the playoffs to say he's on vc's level or if he's better than him. Last year, *kidd a & carter carried the whole team ( Key word there being AND KIDD. Pierce is doing it SOLO.)*to the playoffs and carter was the main part. Beside these two, we had noone, and Nenad didn't do that well except for the playoffs. *Now paul pierce had ricky davis in the begining of the season , now he has Wally, West is not bad at all, Al jefferson is certainly better than any of our post guys that we had last season. if he's that good, he should make the playoffs.(The Celts roster is no where close to being as talented as the NETS...so please, get off that. The Celts are filled with mediocre players)* and No, carmelo is not on vc's level yet. Now Dwayne Wade you might be right, i think they're both the same. I just gave vince the edge because he toped him three time in Head to Head. But other than that, i think D-wade and VC are now on the same level.


I'm not the one who should be in the clinic. You praise VC as if you're having his baby. We are not going on last year or the past, or overall talent or skill level. VC isn't in the top ten right now. And yes, the Celtics are making a push with a mediocre cast. Pierce has them all completely on his shoulders. You also have to take into account they are playing pretty well, after once again mixing up the chemistry of their team....in the middle of the season no less. But if we are going on NOW, VC is not top ten. You would legitimately have to be VC's wife or mother to believe that.

Wade and VC on the same level? I don't think so. Does VC have possibly more talent? Yes... but as of last year Dwyane Wade has been a better player than VC all around. Whether your going by personal statistics, team records, etc. Sure VC played some of his best games against the Heat this year, but how does that equate to them being the same caliber of player? You ask any GM, who is better? And I almost guarantee they will all say Dwyane Wade.

Melo isn't on VC's level? How the hell do you figure?

Numbers:

VC: PPG 24.0 RPG 5.9 APG 4.3 SPG 1.22
Melo: PPG 26.3 RPG 5.3 APG 2.6 SPG 1.19

How are Melo and VC not equal? Is you justify Wade and VC being equal, then I can certainly do the same between Melo and VC. And as of right now, Melo is playing better than Carter.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

I forgot about Ron Artest.

1. Kobe Bryant
2. LeBron James
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Allen Iverson
5. Steve Nash
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Ron Artest
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Paul Pierce
10. Gilbret Arenas


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> I'm not the one who should be in the clinic. You praise VC as if you're having his baby. We are not going on last year or the past, or overall talent or skill level. VC isn't in the top ten right now. And yes, the Celtics are making a push with a mediocre cast. Pierce has them all completely on his shoulders. You also have to take into account they are playing pretty well, after once again mixing up the chemistry of their team....in the middle of the season no less. But if we are going on NOW, VC is not top ten. You would legitimately have to be VC's wife or mother to believe that.
> 
> Wade and VC on the same level? I don't think so. Does VC have possibly more talent? Yes... but as of last year Dwyane Wade has been a better player than VC all around. Whether your going by personal statistics, team records, etc. Sure VC played some of his best games against the Heat this year, but how does that equate to them being the same caliber of player? You ask any GM, who is better? And I almost guarantee they will all say Dwyane Wade.
> 
> ...



First of all, if you know me, i am very critic of every bad thing VC does, I've never praised vc that much, i only talk about him good when i see it's right. I don't care if the celtics are playing good, Pierce is playing his best season of his career but needs to make the playoffs this year to say alright he carried the whole team to the playoffs not to outside of it, like lebron needs to make the playoff; which every1 is on his a** for not making it yet. Now if you don't think vc is top ten that your own opinion, so making comments about having to be his mother or his wife is quite irrelevant. Also, i don't want to start a D-wade vs Vince convo again, because i already stated the reason why i don't think Wade is better than vince, in the other thread, you can go check it out. Now come to melo, Vince, overall is better than him, Vince is a better rebounder, passer, scorer ( If though Melo is averaging more than vince, Vince also has Rj on his team who's averaging about 20 points a game), Better 3point shooter, etc...


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> First of all, if you know me, i am very critic of every bad thing VC does, I've never praised vc that much, i only talk about him good when i see it's right. I don't care if the celtics are playing good, Pierce is playing his best season of his career but needs to make the playoffs this year to say alright he carried the whole team to the playoffs not to outside of it, like lebron needs to make the playoff; which every1 is on his a** for not making it yet. Now if you don't think vc is top ten that your own opinion, so making comments about having to be his mother or his wife is quite irrelevant. Also, i don't want to start a D-wade vs Vince convo again, because i already stated the reason why i don't think Wade is better than vince, in the other thread, you can go check it out. Now come to melo, Vince, overall is better than him, Vince is a better rebounder, passer, scorer ( If though Melo is averaging more than vince, Vince also has Rj on his team who's averaging about 20 points a game), Better 3point shooter, etc...


RJ averages 19 ppg. But even then, that doesn't guarantee VC would average more points. If Andre Miller averages 10 points instead of 14, I could say Melo COULD average more as well. VC only has experience on Melo, and that is about it. Overall, they are virtually on the same level. But Pierce is most definetely playing better than VC and deserves to be higher on your listing. You have LeBron rankes higher, and he has yet to lead his team to the playoffs...so that point is moot. VC just isn't a top ten player, RIGHT NOW. The jokes were jokes, man. Don't take them personally.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

I don't wanna snub any of the players by actually ranking 'em, so I'll just list down the 10 best players in the league *based SOLELY on their play this season:*

Nowitzki
Wade
LeBron
Nash
Iverson
Kobe
Brand
Pierce
Arenas
Ming


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

kobe duncan kg iverson lebron wade nash mcgrady dirk brand are all in my top 10 in some order i cant figure out... 

kobes 1
mcgrady is prtobably ten and i only got him on the list cuz healthy he is like probably top4
artest is the first not to make it

i have a hard time placing lebron... i think the level he plays at this year is #2, but i cant put him top 5 until he atleast makes the playoffs

i think KG is better than Duncan yet Duncan has three rings and won last year so its hard to put him ahead

does marion belong up here??

i kno dirk, brand, and iverson aren't making my top 5

Nash is a tough call too


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## Nikos (Jun 5, 2002)

I forgot to give props for Ming, he has been excellent this season. With Tmac's injury and lack of quality support, he is still putting up extremely productive numbers while providing a solid defensive presense. 

I think Ming when on his game can be a Top 10 player especially if you give him good support. But under the circumstances, with his subpar teamattes and injuries, I would say he is borderline Top 10 this season, but not quite their yet.


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

Based on their play this season.

1) Kobe Bryant
2) LeBron James
3) Steve Nash
4) Allen Iverson
5) Paul Pierce
6) Elton Brand
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Dwayne Wade
9) Tim Duncan
10) Kevin Garnett


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Lebron James
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Elton Brand
5. Tim Duncan
6. Iverson
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Steve Nash
9. Paul Pierce
10. Dirk Nowitzki

HM: Gilbert Arenas, Vince Carter, Carmelo Anthony, Yao Ming, Ron Artest, Jermaine O'neal, Jason Kidd, Shaquille O'neal


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

I think Artest should be in the top 10. He is the best perimeter defender in the league IMO and becoming a force offensively - he's become great at finishing with his left and posting up. No wing player can guard him down low, and he has great lateral quickness if you try to match up a PF on him. 

I just think his impact is undeniable even w/ all his baggage. Kings are +10.1 with him out there, -1.8 when he's off... The change in their team defense #'s are equally impressive since he's arrived.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

gio30584 said:


> *The "new" list is usually dominated by guards and SFs.*


And yet every year its the teams w/ the dominant big men that go deep in the playoffs and win the title, while the guard and SF dominated teams go home early.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> And yet every year its the teams w/ the dominant big men that go deep in the playoffs and win the title, while the guard and SF dominated teams go home early.


Amen brother.


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## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

wow...i can't believe Shawn Marion is absent from all your guys' lists!


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> And yet every year its the teams w/ the dominant big men that go deep in the playoffs and win the title, while the guard and SF dominated teams go home early.


 Yes like Ben and Rasheed Wallace.....

And Luc Longley and Dennis Rodman.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

f22egl said:


> Yes like Ben and Rasheed Wallace.....
> 
> And Luc Longley and Dennis Rodman.


If you are asserting that the Wallace brothers are not dominant big men... well I suppose that is your prerogative. And Rodman was... well Rodman. Also, everyone that points to the Bulls as an example of how you can win it all w/ a perimeter dominated team is either too young to haved appreciated just how good MJ (and Scottie) was (were), and/or are fooling yourselves thinking that that model can be duplicated.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> RJ averages 19 ppg. But even then, that doesn't guarantee VC would average more points. If Andre Miller averages 10 points instead of 14, I could say Melo COULD average more as well. VC only has experience on Melo, and that is about it. Overall, they are virtually on the same level. But Pierce is most definetely playing better than VC and deserves to be higher on your listing. You have LeBron rankes higher, and he has yet to lead his team to the playoffs...so that point is moot. VC just isn't a top ten player, RIGHT NOW. The jokes were jokes, man. Don't take them personally.





I am not taking them personaly, don't worry about it. As for the Richard Jefferson point, last year when he was injured, VC averaged about 27,4 points. So you could see, the nets needed vince more to score and he did, he doesn't have to score that much now because he has Rj on the team and VC already said that. Now the thing i don't like about VC this year, and i've always criticized him for that is that he defers too much, he worries too much about his teammates while not just playing his game. Like you'll see him in games just sanding on the perimeter giving passes, and stuff like that and some games u'll see him determined and agressive as hell. when he's like that, there only very few that are better than him and that's why i think Pierce is not better than him. Anyways, this thread is " who you think are the new top 10 players" and i've stated mine, if you don't like my list, well tough luck.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> And yet every year its the teams w/ the dominant big men that go deep in the playoffs and win the title, while the guard and SF dominated teams go home early.


that's why there is a difference between best player and best team.

and if you look at the lists, it makes sense. the best teams are the ones that have big guys in or around the top 10 players in the league(the one exception being garnett). the teams winning the championships have been the ones with duncan or shaq or an extremely well balanced team with two good frontcourt players. there is just a larger gap between the great big men and the average big men on nba teams. doesn't mean that duncan and shaq and others are better than the kobe, lebron, wade, and others, just that the guys they are going are worse. makes them more valuable, but not better.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Kobe Bryant
Steve Nash
Dwyane Wade
Lebron James
Elton Brand
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson
Tim Duncan
Ron Artest
Dirk Nowitzki

Pretty tough to do, really. Where to put Dirk? And Pierce? And Arenas?
I have to put more time into this...


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

23isback said:


> wow...i can't believe Shawn Marion is absent from all your guys' lists!


you might want to go back and read more carefully...


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## KiddFan4eva5 (Jul 28, 2005)

Not in any order!

Kobe
Brand
James
Nash
Wade
Garnett
Kidd
Iverson
Marion
Carter

I might have left a couple out. It was hard to choose!


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> When healthy.
> 
> 1. Kobe Bryant
> 2. Tim Duncan
> ...


Not going to read the whole thread, but I was hoping to get to your list. You didn't disappoint me Patches.

I will say this, I think Kobe is No. 1, but I still think Duncan is No. 2. The way he changes the game from a rebounding, defensive aspect is enough for me to keep him up there, even in a down year.

1. Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers
2. Tim Duncan, San Antonio
3. Dwyane Wade, Miami
4. Lebron James, Cleveland
5. Paul Pierce, Boston
6. Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas
7. Kevin Garnett, Minnesota
8. Steve Nash, Phoenix
9. Ron Artest, Sacramento
10a. Gilbert Arenas, Washington
10b. Elton Brand, LA Clippers


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

dp


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> And yet every year its the teams w/ the dominant big men that go deep in the playoffs and win the title, while the guard and SF dominated teams go home early.


Not really, that's a common myth. Historically it's not even close to true, either. Bird was the dominant player on his team during the Celtics 3 title runs, Magic had the slight edge in impact over Kareem during their 5 title runs, Isiah Thomas was the dominant player during the Bad Boys' two titles runs in 89 and 90, and Jordan and Pippen were by far the dominant players during their 6 titles runs. To counter that, you have Hakeem being the dominant player in the Rockets' two title runs (though he still had Drexler for one of them), Duncan being the dominant player in their 3 title runs, and Shaq being the dominant player in their 3 title runs (though he still had Kobe). So it's actually pretty even. 

Overall, big men aren't any emore important historically. It may start changing now. Then again, the Pistons' Finals MVP was Chauncy Billups just two years ago.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

EHL said:


> Not really, that's a common myth. Historically it's not even close to true, either. Bird was the dominant player on his team during the Celtics 3 title runs, Magic had the slight edge in impact over Kareem during their 5 title runs, Isiah Thomas was the dominant player during the Bad Boys' two titles runs in 89 and 90, and Jordan and Pippen were by far the dominant players during their 6 titles runs. To counter that, you have Hakeem being the dominant player in the Rockets' two title runs (though he still had Drexler for one of them), Duncan being the dominant player in their 3 title runs, and Shaq being the dominant player in their 3 title runs (though he still had Kobe). So it's actually pretty even.
> 
> Overall, big men aren't any emore important historically. It may start changing now. Then again, the Pistons' Finals MVP was Chauncy Billups just two years ago.


You are welcome to believe and intrepret how you like. Larry Bird was as good down low as he was on the perimeter and there were two other hall of fame big men on that team. The Pistons Bad Boys had about 6 top notch big men. The Lakers had Kareem and Worthy (who was a great post player) and a bunch of other big guys they counted on every night, not to mention Magic was capable of playing all 5 positions. You don't win w/ guards. You win w/ big men. If you want to look at player's 'talent level' or whatever and say these guards are the best players in the league, that's your prerogative. I look at who contributes most to winning. And that's the big guys, not the little guys.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> You are welcome to believe and intrepret how you like. Larry Bird was as good down low as he was on the perimeter


So Larry Bird was just as much of a low post player as he was a perimeter player, eh? Sorry, but Bird is generally regarded as the greatest shooter of all time, as well as greatest 3-point shooter of all time. FYI, those shots occur out on the perimeter. 



> The Pistons Bad Boys had about 6 top notch big men.


:laugh: 

Thomas/Dumars >>> Rodman/Lambier. Isiah Thomas, by far, was what made those teams go. Ask Pistons fans that actually know what they're talking about.



> The Lakers had Kareem and Worthy (who was a great post player) and a bunch of other big guys they counted on every night, not to mention Magic was capable of playing all 5 positions.


Worthy was not what anyone would consider a "big man"; i.e. a great rebounder, post defender, shot blocker, etc. The only "big man" stuff he did was, obviously, destroy opponents in the low post. And it doesn't really matter that Magic could play all 5 positions when he played one position for 95% of his career. Come on now. 



> You don't win w/ guards. You win w/ big men.


You can keep telling yourself that, but most people will continue laughing at it. 



> If you want to look at player's 'talent level' or whatever and say these guards are the best players in the league, that's your prerogative. I look at who contributes most to winning. And that's the big guys, not the little guys.


Honestly, you really don't know what contributes to winning. I hate to tell ya.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

EHL said:


> So Larry Bird was just as much of a low post player as he was a perimeter player, eh? Sorry, but Bird is generally regarded as the greatest shooter of all time, as well as greatest 3-point shooter of all time. FYI, those shots occur out on the perimeter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As usual, not worth my time. Don't know why I bothered in the first place...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> As usual, not worth my time. Don't know why I bothered in the first place...


It's not really surprising either way, I honestly doubt you've watched any basketball whatsoever before 2000.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. Iverson
4. Brand
5. Nash
6. KG
7. Wade
8. Dirk
9. Pierce
10. Shaq ( lately )


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

EHL said:


> It's not really surprising either way, I honestly doubt you've watched any basketball whatsoever before 2000.


Your name is in black. I find your postings entirely worthless. Why does the computer tell me I can't ignore you?


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## Nikos (Jun 5, 2002)

Teams win with a good balance of offense and defense. Big men like Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem are/were great because of their excellent offense along with excellent defense (ok Shaq didn't always play great D, but he was an intimidating presense at worst). 

I think big men lead teams have won titles as of late because they happened to have elite players on them along with solid support. I'm sure a team constructed around a guy like Wade or Kobe could win a title. But it just so happens they do not have the neccesary help. Do the Pistons really have a dominant post presense on offense? Their best offensive players are in their backcourt. They have an excellent balance of offense and defense, with the offense mostly consisting of their backcourt and Rasheed. 

Bottom line, I do not think a dominant big is neccesary to win a title. A balanced team on both ends is ideal, and that can be done without having a dominant big man (on other end).


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Your name is in black. I find your postings entirely worthless. Why does the computer tell me I can't ignore you?


Probably because I'm smarter?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

EHL said:


> Probably because I'm smarter?


Here's some help, genius. If you are going to claim you are smarter than someone, you should make sure it in a context in which the comment is at least marginally relevant. Otherwise, you look like just what you are....


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## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

1. Kobe

2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. Tim Duncan
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Elton Brand
7. Pau Gasol
8. KG
9. Nash
10.Gilbert Arenas


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Here's some help, genius. If you are going to claim you are smarter than someone, you should make sure it in a context in which the comment is at least marginally relevant. Otherwise, you look like just what you are....


It's 100% relavant actually. Because I'm smarter, you can't ignore me. Ha! 

Plus I really am. I mean, Magic can play all 5 positions? Worthy is a legit "big man"? Larry Bird played down low as often as up high? I mean, why bother posting at all with crap like that?


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## DiceMoney (Mar 4, 2006)

EHL said:


> Not really, that's a common myth. Historically it's not even close to true, either. Bird was the dominant player on his team during the Celtics 3 title runs, Magic had the slight edge in impact over Kareem during their 5 title runs, Isiah Thomas was the dominant player during the Bad Boys' two titles runs in 89 and 90, and Jordan and Pippen were by far the dominant players during their 6 titles runs. To counter that, you have Hakeem being the dominant player in the Rockets' two title runs (though he still had Drexler for one of them), Duncan being the dominant player in their 3 title runs, and Shaq being the dominant player in their 3 title runs (though he still had Kobe). So it's actually pretty even.
> 
> *Overall, big men aren't any emore important historically. It may start changing now. Then again, the Pistons' Finals MVP was Chauncy Billups just two years ago*.


But Ben Wallace and Rasheed are pretty dominant in defense of boards. Rasheed is very talented too. So I think the dominant man theory somehow apply's for Detroit Pistons too.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

EHL said:


> Not really, that's a common myth. Historically it's not even close to true, either. Bird was the dominant player on his team during the Celtics 3 title runs, Magic had the slight edge in impact over Kareem during their 5 title runs, Isiah Thomas was the dominant player during the Bad Boys' two titles runs in 89 and 90, and Jordan and Pippen were by far the dominant players during their 6 titles runs. To counter that, you have Hakeem being the dominant player in the Rockets' two title runs (though he still had Drexler for one of them), Duncan being the dominant player in their 3 title runs, and Shaq being the dominant player in their 3 title runs (though he still had Kobe). So it's actually pretty even.
> 
> Overall, big men aren't any emore important historically. It may start changing now. Then again, the Pistons' Finals MVP was Chauncy Billups just two years ago.


Rep. That's what I have been trying to tell people. Perfect post.


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## Vermillion (Mar 23, 2004)

1.Kobe Bryant
2.Allen Iverson
3.Kevin Garnett
4.Lebron James
5.Tim Duncan
6.Dwyane Wade
7.Steve Nash
8.Shaquille O'Neal
9.Dirk Nowitzki/Elton Brand
10.Shawn Marion


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## Vinsane (Feb 27, 2005)

It depends on what aspect of the game you are speakin of offensively, defensively, or overall


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Regarding the top 10 players in the league list........

When reading through this thread it's apparent that almost everyone agrees Kobe Bryant is the best player in the game this season. I also noticed a lot of people left LeBron out of their top 5! Yet I get vilified for it, and many of you told me it's impossibe to leave LeBron out of the top 5. Where are you same posters now ? To complain to the rest of BBB.Net community that doesn't agree with you ?


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

DiceMoney said:


> But Ben Wallace and Rasheed are pretty dominant in defense of boards. Rasheed is very talented too. So I think the dominant man theory somehow apply's for Detroit Pistons too.


Definitley it applies to the Pistons of the last two seasons. But it also applies to their perimeter players. They're one of the more balanced title teams in history, with two great defensive big men (one who can actually score) and two great scoring perimeter players (a former Finals MVP and very good perimeter defender).


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I agree that Bird wasn't a dominant post player, but it's not because he couldn't have been one. It was more because of his ungodly perimeter all-around game, but he could take you on the block.

It's like MJ. He could take you on the block, but no one would dare call him a post player. Those Celtic championships were won on the emphasis of the Celtics secondary break, where they mid-ranged shot you to death.


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## -BasketBallBoy- (Jan 22, 2006)

1.Kobe
*
*
2.Nash
3.Duncan
4.Nowitzki
*
5.Lebron
6.Wade
7.Iverson
*
8.KG
9.Yao Ming
10.Elton Brand

* is like space seperating each of the level of players.

Honorable mentions:
T-Mac because of injuries.
Ron Artest because I had no space.
Carmelo who is Border-line top 10 and will make it in a year.


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

When _*healthy at 100%*_

1.Tim Duncan
2.Kobe Bryant


3.LeBron James
4.Kevin Garnett
5.Dwayne Wade
6.Tracy McGrady
7.Steve Nash


8.Elton Brand
9.Paul Pierce
10.Dirk Nowitzki/Shaquille O'neal


just missed it:Vincent Carter,Carmello Anthony,Gilbert Arenas,Tony Parker,Allen Iverson(no particular order)


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## banner17 (Jun 28, 2003)

This year as I see it, in no particular order

Lebron
Dirk
Kobe
Truth
Iverson
Wade
Brand
Duncan
Nash
Parker


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> If you are asserting that the Wallace brothers are not dominant big men... well I suppose that is your prerogative. And Rodman was... well Rodman. Also, everyone that points to the Bulls as an example of how you can win it all w/ a perimeter dominated team is either too young to haved appreciated just how good MJ (and Scottie) was (were), and/or are fooling yourselves thinking that that model can be duplicated.


 dom·i·nant

1. Exercising the most influence or control.
2. Most prominent, as in position; ascendant.

I only mention the Wallace Brothers because they were good, but not dominant in the terms of outplaying Shaq. The Pistons were much deeper in their backcourt and bench, but IMO the Wallaces were not dominant.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. LeBron James
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Elton Brand
6. Tim Duncan
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Steve Nash
9. Tracy McGrady
10. Ron Artest

Not only are Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett's days of dominating two of the top three positions on these lists gone, they're not the top two power forwards in the league anymore in my opinion. I also move McGrady down to 9 because while he still has so much talent and ability, I'm not so sure we'll ever be able to count on him staying healthy for an extended period of time again. And that has to factor in. Just like the top five for the past few years has been dominated by Shaq, Kobe, T-Mac, KG and Duncan, I think my top three can keep those spots (shuffeling the order around possibly) for quite some time. All three are perimeter oriented guys, but at this point in time I don't think anyone impacts the game at the same level they do.


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## Brandon Real (Mar 14, 2006)

1. Kobe Bryant



2. Kevin Garnett
3. Lebron James

4a. Dirk Nowitzki
4b. Steve Nash
4c. Tim Duncan
4d. Dwayne Wade
8. Elton Brand
9. Shaq
10. Shawn Marion/Allen Iverson


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

The top ten for this season:

1. LeBron James
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Elton Brand
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Steve Nash
8. Allen Iverson
9. Paul Pierce
10. Yao Ming

The top ten overall:

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. LeBron James
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Tracy McGrady
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Allen Iverson
9. Paul Pierce
10. Steve Nash


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

LeBron James is not even close to being the best in the league Minstrel. Not even he believes that, and the guy is arrogant beyond measure. A player can't be the best in the league if they are chary of taking the clutch shot, or playing tough defense on a guy.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

sherako said:


> LeBron James is not even close to being the best in the league Minstrel.


I didn't say he was the best in the league. My second list is "best in the league." The first list is just who's having the best years in 2006.



> A player can't be the best in the league if they are chary of taking the clutch shot


He's not chary of taking clutch shots. He's been taking and making big shots in the nearly three years of his pro career. He had a run of bad luck with final possessions and the vast majority, like casual fans always do, immediately took a small sample size of results and made it a character failing.



> or playing tough defense on a guy.


He's not particularly adept at defense yet, but he's capable of bearing down and playing tough defense here and there. Kobe Bryant, his current main competition for "best player of 2006," has also become a "here and there" tough defender.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> My second list is "best in the league." The first list is just who's having the best years in 2006.


You didn't specify originally. Both lists are labeled "top 10" as it were. Doesn't seem to make sense either, as Elton Brand, Steve Nash & Kobe Bryant to name three are undoubtingly having better years than LeBron is.



> He's been taking and making big shots in the nearly three years of his pro career.


What big shots? Even hardcore Cavaliers develop amnesia when quizzed upon them. Despite him being the goto guy on that team for three years, he only has one big shot I can remember, the three against the Pacers and they lost that game. Also he had a winning layup some time ago, otherwise he is bereft in the clutch column.



> He had a run of bad luck with final possessions and the vast majority, like casual fans always do, immediately took a small sample size of results and made it a character failing.


Bad luck indeed. Bad luck always happens when you dish the rock off to guys like Eric Snow and lay the game on them. Luckily Cavs management bailed him out by bringing Flip Murray in, a guy who isn't scared to pop in the final minutes.



> He's not particularly adept at defense yet, but he's capable of bearing down and playing tough defense here and there. Kobe Bryant, his current main competition for "best player of 2006," has also become a "here and there" tough defender.


That's impossible.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

sherako said:


> You didn't specify originally. Both lists are labeled "top 10" as it were.


One says "top ten *for this season*." That's the one with James at the top.



> Doesn't seem to make sense either, as Elton Brand, Steve Nash & Kobe Bryant to name three are undoubtingly having better years than LeBron is.


No they aren't. Just because you like to phrase your opinions as facts doesn't make them any more powerful. You can argue for any of those players, but none of them are having "undoubtedly" better years.



> What big shots? Even hardcore Cavaliers develop amnesia when quizzed upon them.


In the Christmas day game against the Magic in his rookie season, he traded big shots at the end of regulation with Tracy McGrady, forcing overtime. He's also taken over down the stretch many times, once such time was when he scored ten straight points against the Bulls in his rookie season to close out a game, turning a close Cavaliers loss into a close Cavaliers win. Last season, with his team trailing big in the fourth quarter of an early season game against Phoenix, James dominated the fourth quarter in pulling out a big comeback victory.

There's really no evidence that James' performance varies by time left in the game. People just like to make big conclusions from the latest results.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

LeBron is the least clutch NBA star i've ever seen. Making a strong comback and leading the way in the 4th quarter isn't the same as hitting a clutch shot with the game on the line, and all the preassure on your shoulders. Just ask a guy like Sam Cassell if you don't think there is a difference. Or better yet ask Craig Ehlo. :biggrin: 

Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, D Wade, Carmelo Anthony, and Reggie Miller are the definition of clutch players.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

23AJ said:


> LeBron is the least clutch NBA star i've ever seen. Making a strong comback and leading the way in the 4th quarter isn't the same as hitting a clutch shot with the game on the line, and all the preassure on your shoulders.


Scoring the final ten points of the game to win a game is scoring with all the pressure on your shoulders. Plus, it's the very definition of arbitrary to claim that only the last shot of the game has extreme pressure, but the second to last shot is free and easy.

As I said, there's no evidence that James' performance varies by the time on the clock.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Scoring the final ten points of the game to win a game is scoring with all the pressure on your shoulders. Plus, it's the very definition of arbitrary to claim that only the last shot of the game has extreme pressure, but the second to last shot is free and easy.
> 
> As I said, there's no evidence that James' performance varies by the time on the clock.


Again I bet you to make such a statement to the men that have made the last shot, or lost due to the last shot of the game, and tell them it's all the same preassure. Craig Ehlo, and Sam Cassell is a good place to start your research.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Again I bet you to make such a statement to the men that have made the last shot


Like LeBron James? Okay.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Like LeBron James? Okay.


Sure ask LeBron James. However ask the other guys I mentioned first. Back to LeBron though, Isn't he the one that said himself he doesn't have the killer instinct ala Kobe Bryant. Maybe that's the answer as to why LeBron isn't very clutch.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Isn't he the one that said himself he doesn't have the killer instinct ala Kobe Bryant.


Got a link?



> Maybe that's the answer as to why LeBron isn't very clutch.


It's hard to find answers for made-up problems, I'll grant you.


----------



## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

with the way yao is playing as of now. Its hard to keep him off the top 10


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Got a link?
> 
> 
> 
> It's hard to find answers for made-up problems, I'll grant you.


No link, but it was discussed during the TNT Cavs/Lakers game.

It's hard for you to find answers you don't want to see the day of light ? That's more believable. Considering it's resonable for NBA players to have a better understanding of what shot's have more preassure.


----------



## B-Scott (Jan 17, 2006)

My boy Kobe has been struggling of late.

Lamar odom has been Huge.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

*Jerry Stackhouse (on Yao Ming)*: "We don't worry about Yao (Ming). He and Tracy (McGrady) can get a hundred but they still can't beat us if we keep the other guys in check. This is the best I have ever seen him play. *He's the best center in the NBA right now on one end (offensive) of the court. Every team has to focus on him more than any other center in the NBA, even Shaq (O'Neal).*"

What is the explanation for Arenas being a top 10 player?


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2004)

23AJ said:


> LeBron is the least clutch NBA star i've ever seen. Making a strong comback and leading the way in the 4th quarter isn't the same as hitting a clutch shot with the game on the line, and all the preassure on your shoulders. Just ask a guy like Sam Cassell if you don't think there is a difference. Or better yet ask Craig Ehlo. :biggrin:
> 
> Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, D Wade, Carmelo Anthony, and Reggie Miller are the definition of clutch players.


Clutch player IMO is not only the one who hits the last shot. It's also about making the right play in the last seconds. How many games have the Cavs won when James has drawn 2-3 defenders on him and passing the ball for an open man instead of taking a dumb shot by himself like other "clutch" players usually do? 

It's more clutch to make the right decision when the pressure is on than take the last shot even if it's not good. You know damn well that in the last play the ball goes to Lebrons hands and he has the pressure to make the right play even if he's not the one who shoots. And quite often something good comes out of him.


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## Fooksy (Mar 1, 2006)

In no particular order as i agree that any one of these guys could out play any of the others!

Kobe
Lebron
T Mac
Vince
Brand
Dirk
Nash
Carter
KG
Duncan (not exciting but deserves a place)


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> *Jerry Stackhouse (on Yao Ming)*: "We don't worry about Yao (Ming). He and Tracy (McGrady) can get a hundred but they still can't beat us if we keep the other guys in check. This is the best I have ever seen him play. *He's the best center in the NBA right now on one end (offensive) of the court. Every team has to focus on him more than any other center in the NBA, even Shaq (O'Neal).*"
> 
> What is the explanation for Arenas being a top 10 player?


He's been great for more than just the last 11 games, unlike Yao? Just a wild guess.


----------



## NextBigThing (Jun 21, 2003)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Steve Nash
4. LeBron James
5. Elton Brand
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Ron Artest
9. Tracy McGrady
10. Tim Duncan


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## spursindonesia (Mar 6, 2003)

1. Steve Nash
2. Lebron James
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Yao Ming
6. Allen Iverson
7. Elton Brand
8. Chauncey Billups
9. Dwayne Wade
10. Tony Parker


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## -BasketBallBoy- (Jan 22, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> Got a link?
> 
> 
> 
> It's hard to find answers for made-up problems, I'll grant you.


Ya Lebron did say that he lacked Kobe's killer instinct. I saw it in a link, I forgot what it was but I know many people who would back me up that he did say that. I then saw a PRO-Lebron article stating that Lebron having no killer instinct was good because it shows he is more of a pass first person who trusts his teammates. Something like that. I think it was in ESPN, look for articles around the day Lakers beat Cav by one point.(Kobe drained 3 jumpers after missing most of his earlier shots and having some injury, i think it was the wrist.) Didn't Lebron miss a freethrow during crunchtime also there? I am looking for the recap right now.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

23AJ said:


> No link, but it was discussed during the TNT Cavs/Lakers game.
> 
> It's hard for you to find answers you don't want to see the day of light ? That's more believable. Considering it's resonable for NBA players to have a better understanding of what shot's have more preassure.


 Minstrel its true what AJ says as far as Lebron saying he doesnt have that killer instinct as of yet, BUT I also find it unreasonable when people talking about a player being clutch as a deciding factor of whether they are good are not its ridiculous. It lowers the value of the one saying it in my eyes just because its not being impartial to a particular players talents, and the merit being based off of a few circumstances. FOr anyone to even remotely call Lebron james a chock artist is either a hater or honestly doesnt have a full view of what the game of basketball is. Hes carried his team on his back for his first 3 years in the league.

My favorite Player Allen Iverson, he hit the first game winner of his career, LAST SEASON. I dont see threads about him not being clutch or choking down the stretch. Plain and simple IMHO its a myth


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Wow, 9 pages. Thanks for the participation ya'll. Someone said they were doing the tallies, I was going to do that, but if someone is already doing it I'd be real interested in the results. 

As far as the contents in the thread...

EHL, you, me, and a few others have been talking up Elton Brand for years. I would love to bring up some of the old Shareef Abdur Rahim comparisons he would get, what a joke. I can't believe people actually bought into that argument. 

HKF, I agree Tim Duncan is still a lot better than people want to believe even though he is clearly not close to himself this year. The one thing I've come away with about this year and Duncan, is that when the guy is putting up 19 and 11 and people think he has declined to the point where he "sucks balls" in the words of a poster here, that just tells you how great he is when he is healthy. 

As far as the big men win games argument, it's more about positional value. I made a thread about this awhile ago, if a player is a top 5 center, is he more valuable than a player who is considered to be much better, but is worse at his position? The example I used back then was Yao Ming and Dirk Nowitzki. Most agreed that you take the better player not the better player at their position. 

I don't necessarily agree with that though. Big men don't win games, well rounded teams do, and well rounded teams have big men. Big men are more rare, so there are only a few really good well rounded teams in the league. If you had a team with great big men and no perimeter players, they would struggle as much as a team with great perimeter players and no big men. Unfortunetly, there just isn't any teams with great big men and no perimeter players, because of how rare bigs are, and the surplus of great outside players. If that makes sense. So it's not a case of big men being more valuable because they do more on the court or anything necessarily, it's more about positional value and how good bigs are a rarity, so the teams with them have a better chance at being well rounded than teams without. 

Last observation is that Kobe Bryant is the consensus best player in the league by a bigger margin than I've seen in awhile. I didn't realize how respected he was. I guess that 81 point game wasn't just one game, and I knew it wasn't. It really let people in on how talented of a scorer he is. Before that game, and the Mavericks game, you could have debated it between him, Iverson, LeBron, Wade and so on. But before those games even, I was saying that Kobe is easily the best scorer in the league, he just has no weaknesses. He has the face up game, the ability to get in the lane, the ability to finish, the post up game, the ridiculous range, the midrange, the ability to get to the line a whole lot. Just the whole package, all at a level no player can match. Where LeBron and Wade close the gap some is in the all-around game, but I agree with the consensus that they don't have the positive impact on a game that Kobe does.


----------



## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Steve Nash
3. Tim Duncan
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Dwayne Wade
6. Dirk Nowitzky
7. Lebron James
8. Allen Iverson
9. Elton Brand
10. Gilbert Arenas/Paul Pierce


----------



## Nikos (Jun 5, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> As far as the big men win games argument, it's more about positional value. I made a thread about this awhile ago, if a player is a top 5 center, is he more valuable than a player who is considered to be much better, but is worse at his position? The example I used back then was Yao Ming and Dirk Nowitzki. Most agreed that you take the better player not the better player at their position.
> 
> I don't necessarily agree with that though. Big men don't win games, well rounded teams do, and well rounded teams have big men. Big men are more rare, so there are only a few really good well rounded teams in the league. If you had a team with great big men and no perimeter players, they would struggle as much as a team with great perimeter players and no big men. Unfortunetly, there just isn't any teams with great big men and no perimeter players, because of how rare bigs are, and the surplus of great outside players. If that makes sense. So it's not a case of big men being more valuable because they do more on the court or anything necessarily, it's more about positional value and how good bigs are a rarity, so the teams with them have a better chance at being well rounded than teams without.


 This is basically what I was saying earlier. You need well rounded teams to win. As you stated, a team with a great big men and poor perimeter play can lose as easily as a perimeter oriented team with poor frontcourt play. It just so happens the league had three dominant bigs involved in many championships since 1994. 

I guess big men seem more valuable because there are less dominant big men today on both ends of the court, and those are typically the best players if you exclude Jordan since the influx of great big men (Hakeem, Drob, Shaq, Duncan etc....) from the late 80s up until today. Dominant big men can be a bit more valuable than a non Michael Jordanesque perimeter player because of their ability to defend and alter more shots than most perimeter players (even the best stoppers such as Bowen or MJ). 

Today the league simply has more great peimeter players than ever. Several of them, even the 2nd/3rd tier perimeter players are as good as most perimeter players not named Michael Jordan in the late 80s and 90s. Big men need support to look better, and same for perimeter players. I guess the bottom line is big men seem more valuable because they can be more impactful defensively than most perimeter players, while still giving most of the offensive output of a great perimeter player. But this could be a coincidence. Perhaps guys like Lebron, Wade, Kobe will get even better? Maybe their will be a time where one of them can be more impactful overall than a prime Shaq, Drob, and Hakeem? Well see. Maybe they already are more impactful offensively and close overall, but becoming elite defenders and getting better support can certainly help their potential legacies.


----------



## Kaas (Apr 8, 2003)

This is not exclusive to this year, but how I feel they would be under optimal conditions (health, team, coaching, fatigue, etc.).

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Tim Duncan
3. Elton Brand
4. Tracy McGrady
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Allen Iverson
7. Steve Nash
8. Dirk Nowitski
9. Andrei Kirilenko
10. LeBron James


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Kaas said:


> This is not exclusive to this year, but how I feel they would be under optimal conditions (health, team, coaching, fatigue, etc.).
> 
> 1. Kobe Bryant
> 2. Tim Duncan
> ...


 How come you have Kirilenko over Wade, Lebron and Carmelo?


----------



## LuckyAC (Aug 12, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> How come you have Kirilenko over Wade, Lebron and Carmelo?


Yeah, I'm a Kirilenko homer and could see taking him over Melo is he were perfectly healthy, but no way LeBron and Wade.


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## Kaas (Apr 8, 2003)

I have Kirilenko over LeBron because of LeBron's defense. His lateral quickness means that unless he sheds a whole lot of his weight (which he shouldn't do because it'll take away a lot of what he does) he won't ever be a great perimeter defender. Sure he's fast, but he's not that agile and he'll never be able to stay in front of players with a half-decent first step. Obviously he brings more to the table than Kirilenko offensively, but that's not to say Kirilenk isn't offensively talented, he just plays in a Sloan system which relies more or the team creating the set on offense instead of an individual talent. Also, he doesn't have a scorers mentality. I think if he had a role which fit him (see my optimum conditions idea) ala Tayshaun Prince's (with more ball control) in a Detroit like team (obviously with teammates not as talented), he'd be considered an MVP candidate. It could happen soon, depending on how quickly the young guys on the Jazz improve (imagine if they kept Snyder with Deron Williams and Kris Humphries).

As for Wade, he's very close to top 10 and I love his play (He was my #1 pick in the first GM draft if anyone remembers). Unlike LeBron, he has defensive quickness and on offense he's got the quickest first step in the NBA. He drives to the hoop great, and has made a living out of doing it. However, with Shaq, a lot of Wade's weaknesses are covered (even if Shaq isn't nearly himself anymore). We all know he can't shoot the 3, but he doesn't need it. Wade is a great all-around player, which I value like Kirilenko and James. However, I feel part of why he's looking so strong is that he matches the needs of his team. That's definitely a good thing for Heat fans, but I think replacing him with Ray Allen or Gilbert Arenas, or any guard who puts up big numbers, wouldn't improve those teams at all, at least right now. I guess in that way, I'm being unfair since I'm it sounds like I'm not using my optimum situation that I do for other players, but the point is his optimum conditions are much more restrictive than Kirilenko's.

And Carmelo...Because he's been playing so well recently I might be inclined to put him in the top 20 (which is damn good considering how deep the top talent in the league is), but not top 10.

The thing with Kirilenko is that everyone praises him for his defense and all-around stats, which is true, but people seriously underrate what he can do on offense, be it ball-handling, shooting, driving, directing the offense, he can do it all. He just doesn't do it as much as he should. Personally, I think it's more because he caters to the coaching style, but if it's his personality, then you can hold it against him ala Lamar Odom.

EDIT: Let me also add that if my rankings were based on performance this year alone, both Wade and LeBron would be in my top 5 (along with Nash, Kobe, and Brand).


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## eaglewu (Feb 21, 2005)

Kobe
Lebron
Nash
KG
Brand
Yao
Dirk
Marion
AI
TD/Shaq

Why people do not respect Yao and Marion? Only 4 guys has 20+ and 10+.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Brandon Real said:


> 1. Kobe Bryant
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've never understood why people do this. Putting "a", "b", "c", etc. or Player 1/Player 2/Player 3. Does that not completely defeat the purpose of ranking players? Aren't you supposed to be making a decision?

I think the best team in the league is:
1a. Dallas 
1b. San Antonio
1c. Detroit

And the best player in the league is:
1a. Kobe Bryant
1b. LeBron James
1c. Dwyane Wade
1d. Dirk Nowitzki/Paul Pierce/Shawn Marion/Yao Ming
1e. Elton Brand/Tracy McGrady
1f. Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett/Allen Iverson/Gilbert Arenas/Ron Artest


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

Dirk
Lebron
Kobe
AI
Duncan
KG
Brand
Nash
Tmac
Wade


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## B-Real (Sep 30, 2005)

1. Kobe Bryant 
2. Kevin Garnett
3. LeBron James
4. Steve Nash
5. Ron Artest
6. Dwayne Wade
7. Shawn Marion
8. Car"Melo" Anthony
9. Paul Pierce
10.Tim Duncan


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kevin Garnett
4. LeBron James
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7a. Tracy McGrady
7b. Paul Pierce
9. Steve Nash
10. Allen Iverson

I really do not like my Elton Brand, Gilbert Arenas, and Carmelo Anthony snubs, though.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I am going to be honest, but there is no way in hell Andre Kirilenko is one of the 10 best players in the NBA. That's just absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Kirilenko is a heck of an all rounder, but he is over rated in this boards. This guy can produce 5 x 5 stats, which is all good. But he should be scoring more or grabbing more rebounds to even be considered a top 10 player. He is definitely a very good all rounder and a top defender however.


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## Jesus_Walks (Jul 11, 2004)

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Steve Nash
3a) LeBron James
3b) Dwyane Wade
5) Elton Brand
6) Tim Duncan
7) Dirk Nowitzski
8) Allen Iverson
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Paul Pierce


----------



## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

This is my overall ranking - ie, factoring in their history, their play this up to this point this season, how I expect them to play for the rest of this year, and injuries (with chronic ones hurting their ranking more so than freak injuries).

1. Wade
2. Kobe
3. Garnett
4. Duncan
5. Lebron
6. Yao
7. Brand
8. Dirk
9. Nash
10. McGrady


----------



## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> I'm so sorry HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.
> 
> That was a joke right?


i think hes top 15


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Steve Nash
5. Lebron James
6. Amare Stoudemire
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Chris Bosh
9. Carmelo Anthony
10.Chris Paul
11. Paul Pierce
12. Darko Milicic (only if you knew)

ouch forgot Paul Pierce and Chris Paul


----------



## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Before someone does a tally wanted to throw my list in.

1) Tim Duncan - still think his impact is the best in the league on both sides. Put him on any team in the league and they would be competitive for homecourt IMO. 
2) Kobe
3) Lebron
4) Wade 
5) Elton Brand
6) Nash
7) Ron Artest 
8) AI
9) KG
10) Nowtizki

That is very difficult.....leaving Arenas/Pierce off doesn't seem right but it's hard to put them above KG or Dirk.


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## shoprite (Dec 18, 2002)

Duncan is getting overrated because of his reputation and what he has done through out his career.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

shoprite said:


> Duncan is getting overrated because of his reputation and what he has done through out his career.


It's hard to overrate a 2-time MVP, 3-time Finals MVP, and the leader and best player on 3 championship squads. Catch my drift?


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> *Jerry Stackhouse (on Yao Ming)*: "We don't worry about Yao (Ming). He and Tracy (McGrady) can get a hundred but they still can't beat us if we keep the other guys in check. This is the best I have ever seen him play. *He's the best center in the NBA right now on one end (offensive) of the court. Every team has to focus on him more than any other center in the NBA, even Shaq (O'Neal).*"
> 
> What is the explanation for Arenas being a top 10 player?


Arenas is not a top 10 player......hes a scorer but thats all about it.

but since majority of the NBA fans love them PPG, you see him in most lists. Pahetic!!!


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> Arenas is not a top 10 player......hes a scorer but thats all about it.
> 
> but since majority of the NBA fans love them PPG, you see him in most lists. Pahetic!!!


[strike]Pathetic is your portraying that fat-***, has-been of a wuss and calling him a "legend".

The Real Ronaldo plays for Man-Un, baby![/strike]

*Stick to the topic on hand.*


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Last observation is that Kobe Bryant is the consensus best player in the league by a bigger margin than I've seen in awhile. I didn't realize how respected he was. I guess that 81 point game wasn't just one game, and I knew it wasn't. It really let people in on how talented of a scorer he is. Before that game, and the Mavericks game, you could have debated it between him, Iverson, LeBron, Wade and so on. But before those games even, I was saying that Kobe is easily the best scorer in the league, he just has no weaknesses. He has the face up game, the ability to get in the lane, the ability to finish, the post up game, the ridiculous range, the midrange, the ability to get to the line a whole lot. Just the whole package, all at a level no player can match. Where LeBron and Wade close the gap some is in the all-around game, but I agree with the consensus that they don't have the positive impact on a game that Kobe does.


When will you stop with the Kobe worship? You've been on his nuts for so long now, all these guys youve mentioned are as good of a scorers as Kobe so i dont know what you're braggin about?


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> [strike]Pathetic is your portraying that fat-***, has-been of a wuss and calling him a "legend".
> 
> The Real Ronaldo plays for Man-Un, baby![/strike]


[strike]If you don't know **** about futbol than i suggest you stick to basketball and continue with the blind worship of Magic Johnson son.[/strike]

*Responding to baiting with more baiting doesn't help matters.*


----------



## shoprite (Dec 18, 2002)

EHL said:


> It's hard to overrate a 2-time MVP, 3-time Finals MVP, and the leader and best player on 3 championship squads. Catch my drift?


Everybody can be overrated. If somebody called 40 year old MJ the best player in NBA, that's overrating MJ, even if he used to be Basketball God. Same here with TD.

This thread is about "new" top 10 players in the league. TD is just not good enough to be claimed #1 this season.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

shoprite said:


> Everybody can be overrated. If somebody called 40 year old MJ the best player in NBA, that's overrating MJ, even if he used to be Basketball God. Same here with TD.
> 
> This thread is about "new" top 10 players in the league. TD is just not good enough to be claimed #1 this season.


Except your comparison to Jordan is the 40 year old version of him. Tim Duncan is 29, hardly in the same realm as 40, when the vast vast majority of players are a shell of their former selves.


----------



## shoprite (Dec 18, 2002)

EHL said:


> Except your comparison to Jordan is the 40 year old version of him. Tim Duncan is 29, hardly in the same realm as 40, when the vast vast majority of players are a shell of their former selves.


It doesn't matter 40 or 29, actual impact and production is the only way to measure a player. Jordan at 40 is a shell of his formerself, An injured TD is also a shell of former himself. We are talking about now, not past , not future. If TD comes back from injury next year and plays like he used to, I have no problem calling him the best player in NBA. But right now, he isn't.


----------



## Nightfly (Sep 24, 2002)

*Up till the last few posts, this thread has been smooth sailing.

Consider this a friendly reminder. If there are any more personal attacks or posts like the ones I've edited/deleted, this thread will quickly be closed down.*


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

Why is Amare on any list? isnt this a top 10 for this season based on this years performance?


----------



## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

TiMVP2 said:


> When _healthy at 100%_
> 
> *1.Tim Duncan
> 2.Kobe Bryant*
> ...


Biased.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

shoprite said:


> It doesn't matter 40 or 29, actual impact and production is the only way to measure a player. Jordan at 40 is a shell of his formerself, An injured TD is also a shell of former himself. We are talking about now, not past , not future. If TD comes back from injury next year and plays like he used to, I have no problem calling him the best player in NBA. But right now, he isn't.


Except TD is not a shell of his former self. Jordan at 40, compared to prime Jordan, was a shell of his former self. Duncan in his prime with a foot injury is just having an off year. It's no accident he's the best player on a team with the 2nd best record in the league. His impact is still sizable. Jordan at 40 never sniffed that impact.


----------



## shoprite (Dec 18, 2002)

EHL said:


> Except TD is not a shell of his former self. Jordan at 40, compared to prime Jordan, was a shell of his former self. Duncan in his prime with a foot injury is just having an off year. It's no accident he's the best player on a team with the 2nd best record in the league. His impact is still sizable. Jordan at 40 never sniffed that impact.


TD is a shell of his former self now because of injury. The production is not there, that's the proof. Having an off year means he is not the best player right now even if he still has impact. Still calling him the best player for this season is overrating him.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

Kaas said:


> I have Kirilenko over LeBron because of LeBron's defense. His lateral quickness means that unless he sheds a whole lot of his weight (which he shouldn't do because it'll take away a lot of what he does) he won't ever be a great perimeter defender. Sure he's fast, but he's not that agile and he'll never be able to stay in front of players with a half-decent first step[/b]



Not to be nitpicky but if Ron Artest is able to be at this size, why would Lebron not be able to?


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

1.Kobe Bryant
2.Lebron James
3.Dwayne Wade
4.Steve Nash
5.Dirk nowitzki
6.Elton Brand
7.Shaw Marion
8.Tim Duncan
9.Allen Iverson
10.Carmelo Anthony

edit: I dont think it should stop at 10 so ill give my next best 5
11. Yao Ming
12. Paul Pierce
13. Kevin Garnett
14. Gilbert Arenas
15. Ron Artest


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> When will you stop with the Kobe worship? You've been on his nuts for so long now, all these guys youve mentioned are as good of a scorers as Kobe so i dont know what you're braggin about?


I love basketball, and appreciate great basketball players. And calling Kobe the best scorer in the league doesn't make someone a nuthugger, but considering Vince Carter a top 5 player does. Then again, Vince has always been jealous of Kobe, so it's easy to see why his fans would be too.


----------



## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. Lebron
4. Nash
5. KG
6. Brand
7. Nowitzki
8. Duncan
9. Arenas
10. Shaq


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I love basketball, and appreciate great basketball players. And calling Kobe the best scorer in the league doesn't make someone a nuthugger, but considering Vince Carter a top 5 player does. Then again, Vince has always been jealous of Kobe, so it's easy to see why his fans would be too.


What evidence exactly do you have of Vince being jealous of Kobe? Did ESPN put you up to that


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> What evidence exactly do you have of Vince being jealous of Kobe? Did ESPN put you up to that



Hbwoy, this is the guy who thinks kobe will end up being better than Mj.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I finished tallying all the votes, so I figured I'd post them in this thread for my own reference and anyone else interested. Once again, I like to do these every so often just to get a feel for the consensus on the best the NBA has to offer, and to see how quickly they change in a year or a half year. Again, thanks for all the participation! 

*Added up this way:*
1. 10 points
2. 9 points
3. 8 points
4. 7 points
5. 6 points
6. 5 points
7. 4 points
8. 3 points
9. 2 points
10. 1 point

*Final Top 10:*
1. Kobe Bryant (528 points)
2. LeBron James (401 points)
3. Dwyane Wade (349 points)
4. Steve Nash (304 points)
5. Tim Duncan (267 points)
6. Kevin Garnett (236 points)
7. Dirk Nowitzki (230 points)
8. Elton Brand (209 points)
9. Allen Iverson (173 points)
10. Paul Pierce (90 points)

*Others recieving votes:*
Yao Ming 52
Tracy McGrady 50
Shaquille O'Neal 31
Ron Artest 29
Gilbert Arenas 23
Shawn Marion 18
Vince Carter 17
Carmelo Anthony 14


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I finished tallying all the votes, so I figured I'd post them in this thread for my own reference and anyone else interested. Once again, I like to do these every so often just to get a feel for the consensus on the best the NBA has to offer, and to see how quickly they change in a year or a half year. Again, thanks for all the participation!
> 
> *Added up this way:*
> 1. 10 points
> ...


You should do one for the top 10 at each position. It would be interesting to see were people place all of the young talent such as Paul, Howard, Bosh, etc in the league at their respective positions.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I finished tallying all the votes, so I figured I'd post them in this thread for my own reference and anyone else interested. Once again, I like to do these every so often just to get a feel for the consensus on the best the NBA has to offer, and to see how quickly they change in a year or a half year. Again, thanks for all the participation!
> 
> *Added up this way:*
> 1. 10 points
> ...



Great post, I know that was time consuming. 

I'm surprised to see Duncan all the way at 5...and he's really not even close to the top 3.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

*Double post*


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Benedict_Boozer said:


> Great post, I know that was time consuming.
> 
> I'm surprised to see Duncan all the way at 5...and he's really not even close to the top 3.


 How isn't he close to top 5, especially if you take in defensive impact on the game.


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