# 26-14-13



## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

Just want to create a place where JWill doubters can come to in order to see the light. 

http://www.nba.com/games/20021109/NJNCHI/recap.html

PLAYER POS MIN FGM-A 3GM-A FTM-A OFF DEF TOT AST PF ST TO BS PTS 
JAY WILLIAMS G 45 10-22 4-10 2-2 1 13 14 13 3 2 2 0 26 

JASON KIDD G 40 5-15 2-5 13-15 3 8 11 12 2 2 0 0 25 

Wow! JWill just hung with THE best point guard in the league. What a break-out game, and the win makes it all the more sweet. And the nature of the finish, the way we responded to their late surges in the game. And all this after an embarrasing defeat to Dallas where the sky was falling on our bio-polar Bulls. THe drama behind this break-out game takes on a few off-court dimentions as well, considering the absence of JC who's attending his ailing grandmother, and a publicised closed door meeting between BillC and JWIll. It seems to me that the character and heart of JWill brought out something a little special tonight in him. He got the pep talk from coach that he wanted to hear ("I want you in attack mode.") and he literally ran with it. By forcing the action he brought the speed of the game up to his level, and with Jason Kidd guarding him, he made everybody look slow. This is why JWill was a consensus #1 pick two years in a row. This is why most GM in this league rate JWill as the most likely to win Rookie of the Year honors. This is why MJ said he'd have taken JWill in the 2001 draft. 

Now about this win, because that's as much JWill's accomplishment as his tripple double (did you see the 3 in the eye of JasonK in the last minute of the game? respect.) The question is worth asking - if this is the kind of game that JWill can put up 7 games into his rookie season, what more do we have to look forward to THIS season from this kid? An important sidebar to this great performance was the lead-up story detailing JWill's shooting woes. JWill sparked the story when he blamed the cavernous United Center and it's difficult sight lines. To talk about something like this is enough for lots of players in the NBA, but with JWIll everything is backed-up by honesty and hard-nose effort. Jalen has spoken to this effect on several occasions.

26 points. 14 rebounds. 13 assists.

Welcome to the NBA Jay Williams! We're ready to enjoy the ride!


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

very nice post


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> very nice post


ever get the feeling that what we're seeing is just the beginning...

...and I don't just mean in regard to JWill (although this is going to be very entertaining to watch in and of itself) but I see these kinds of glimmers of what might be shining through in all parts of our team. It's like underneath all the confusion and all the fog certain lights are starting to go off in the heads of our youth. Now if we can just get the same kind of break-out game for Chandler and Curry. And if we can get that together in the same game that we win by a blow-out against a playoff bound team, then that would be great as well.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

if williams continues to attack, then he will allow easy points for other players such as curry and chandler!

Yes last night i thought to myself this is just a glimpse of this team might be like in a year or two. I smiled most of the evening and went to bed in a very good mood. Granted, we still might not make the playoffs this year, but i like the way the future looks baring any injury.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Hey, all you stats freaks out there...

Anyone wanna do an analysis of PG's who've posted a trip dub by game 7 of their NBA career? I bet its a list that would find JWill in some pretty fine company.


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

That's a great idea Mr. BoWinkle.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

Oscar Robertson- Game 1
Magic Johnson- Game 5
Jay Williams- Game 7


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## Wishbone (Jun 10, 2002)

not bad company, KC. not bad at all...


now, i don't want to go bursting everyone's bubble. last night's game was one to enjoy, and one to feel good about. but, this team is not ready to take on Shaq and Kobe for the title just yet.

Jay put on a show -- one that I hope to see a lot more of in the games and years to come.

but realistically, I can't expect Jay to top that performance any time soon. I also can't expect Jay to put on similar performances on a regular basis just yet...

if he has say... 30-35 games this year where he plays almost as well, even 2/3s as well - I'll be ecstatic about the Bull's prized rookie (and that would also put him in solid contention for ROY)


but getting back to our collective lightheadedness -- the one really great thing about last night's game - Jay Williams had a great game against the top PG in the league -- who was also having a great game.

it's one thing if you beat the best when he's having an off night -- but when the best is also at the top of his game.... damn.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Of course wishbone. You are right. But still we can bask for a day or so over the fact the jay went head to head with kidd at his best. And put in a kidd like performance!! 

But yes, We have a long way to go due to our youth.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

When JC comes back he'll cut into Jay's minutes and we won't see as many games like last night from him.


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: 26-14-13*



> Originally posted by <b>SALO</b>!
> When JC comes back he'll cut into Jay's minutes and we won't see as many games like last night from him.


UNLESS, you were to see a game where Jay Will could not find his butt with both hands, sorta speak, BILL CARTWRIGHT, would be a class A BAFFOON if he gave Jay any less minutes than possible....Jay SHOULD be in the game UNLESS he is playing bad..or is tired....period! THIS is how players "establish" that a position is THEIRS. He has...it is.

Now, we need a better SG...Move Jalen there and get EROB on the Court as a SF(let HIM prove his worth by giving him LARGE minutes at a time until he proves he cannot be the player we THOUGHT we were getting?)...Slap Donyell at the 4, and Curry at the 5....:grinning:


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

Hey, how do you statistics for various players by year, any year? 
I want to see when these players first scored a tripple double their rookie year:

Andre Miller
Gary Paton
Stephon Marbury
Michael Bibby
Tim Hardaway
Kevin Johnson
Sam Cassell
Steve Francis


But I don't know how to do it...

:upset:


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

*26 - 14 - 13*

....and even more beautiful is how he sailed right by that triple-double. He beat each stat by a good margin. Hope this game was enough to establish that Jay is definitely our primary PG.


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

I don't see how he isn't our starting pg after this showing. It sounded as if he was given more freedom to use conventional offensive methods to attack the nets as opposed to force feeding the triangle offense. THat strategy clearly worked for JWill. Does this strategy become our method of attack against all opponents, or only the one's which we figure we don't have any chance against if we're using the triangle. 

JC. I can't help but try to imagine what's going through this kid's head. It must seem like life has it out for him. First he blows his knee out just as he's starting to gain attention playing along side MJ at HOops the gym, then he comes back early and earns the starting spot at the end of last season, only to lose the spot he thought he had earned to the All-American JayW and now his GRandma is sick and he's at her bedside and back at the office the new guy is taking all his work and becoming a star. Ma, said there'd be days like this, guess you learn to roll with the punches and keep on working. I sincerely hope we do not give up on JC. I still believe there's a hidden treasure there.


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

If JC accepts his role and improve his game, I have no problem with him. However, if his return means less minutes for Jay then I got a problem. This year will prove to be the biggest challenge. If he keeps a head up and work his *** off to bulk up this offseason, he will be a surprise. I think his best chance right now is sg. On this year draft, we will probably draft a Euro sf and move Jalen to sg.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

I agree, *SUS!*, that we shouldn't give up on Crawdad. I think he will be an excellent complimentary player to Jay once he stops worrying about how the Bulls are mistreating him and just starts playing the game he loves.

If I'm Bill and Jerry, I have two more closed door meetings. One with Jamal, one with Marcus. Say the same thing: "Look, kid, you're unhappy with your roll on our team, and we're unhappy with how you are filling the roll we have set for you. Right now, though, your trade value is zero. Want out? Start playing like a madman. As soon as we get an offer we like for you, we'll move you. If, in the process, you actually decide you like it here, we can agree that you'll stay. If, on the other hand, you decide to sulk and stink up the floor with your 'mad skeelz -- I know the game better than my coach (with three rings) or my GM (with six rings) -- piss-poor' attitude, then you and your career will rot on the end of our bench for the next three seasons." I then point out the blossoming careers of the the last few players who had higher opinions of their games than did Bulls management (AJ, Cory, and Khalid being the most recent examples).

Sometimes a strong dose of reality is better than kid gloves.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

Um, sorry, the writing is on the wall for Crawford. You don't waste a #7 pick on someone to be a backup and he knows that too... so he is going to continue to piss and moan until he gets what he wants, which since Jay has shown he can perform, is hopefully a trade.

I'm glad you guys are so supportive and still sticking with Jamal, but it just doesn't make sense in many ways. We need to move him before his value keeps spiraling down. 

Some interesting deals could be those Seattle and Knick deals mentioned... what about sending him to Washington in a package for someone like Jared Jeffries, maybe Toronto for someone like Morris Peterson, another deal to Indiana, or the one I'd want to see done the most, a deal with Milwaukee for Michael Redd. There are quite a few squads out there that would take a chance on Crawford.

As for Fizer, I'd deal him for a Happy Meal, without a toy.


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

Do what you want with Fizer. I really don't care. But JC is another story. I still think this kid can be a player, and I don't want to give up on him yet. We need a back-up point guard anyway, now granted he's played poorly some games as a back-up point, but he's also been instrumental in two come-backs even if he wasn't in to finish the game. He does need to get better, and his shot better come back quick. I think he just needs time. His Grandmother being ill comes at an unopportune time, but great players find inspiration in these types of trials and let a belief in something more than themselves take over. This can bring a player mentally confused out of their slump and back into the flow of the game. I'm hoping JC has the strength to do this. We will see.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>settinUpShop</b>!
> Do what you want with Fizer. I really don't care. But JC is another story. I still think this kid can be a player, and I don't want to give up on him yet. We need a back-up point guard anyway, now granted he's played poorly some games as a back-up point, but he's also been instrumental in two come-backs even if he wasn't in to finish the game. He does need to get better, and his shot better come back quick. I think he just needs time. His Grandmother being ill comes at an unopportune time, but great players find inspiration in these types of trials and let a belief in something more than themselves take over. This can bring a player mentally confused out of their slump and back into the flow of the game. I'm hoping JC has the strength to do this. We will see.


You're still not getting it... Jamal WON'T settle for being a backup. This is obvious in the way he has conducted himself since he has come to Chicago... if we don't deal him, he'll simply walk when his option is done. 

In Jamal's mind, he thinks he is a legend and I once pushed for him to become the 2 guard, but since he is obviously not interested in developing himself, that is not going to become a reality.


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## BigMike (Jun 12, 2002)

It was ONE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

calm down truebluefan


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>footballfreak</b>!
> It was ONE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> calm down truebluefan



Doubters come one and come all.


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

*26-14-13* 

What do you guys (and gals) find most impressive . . . the 26 points, the 14 boards or the 13 assists?

I think Jay's play should improve from here on out because he now seems to have the 'green light' he didn't seem to have earlier in the season. Cartwright seemed also seemed to change to offense a bit to give him more freedom to do his thing. 

I can see him getting 14-17 points 8 assists per game the rest of the way . . . :rbanana: :rbanana:


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

The rebounds... most definitely. Getting that many boards means he had the most desire out on the floor a majority of the game.

I expect him to drop 20+ and get around 8-10 assists, but to board like that... it's straight fire and desire. Sometime we haven't had since #23.


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## Wishbone (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> The rebounds... most definitely. Getting that many boards means he had the most desire out on the floor a majority of the game.
> 
> I expect him to drop 20+ and get around 8-10 assists, but to board like that... it's straight fire and desire. Sometime we haven't had since #23.


20+ and 8-10 --- during the prime years of his career, maybe

for this year, if he averages 14.5 and 6, it'll be pretty impressive.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> Um, sorry, the writing is on the wall for Crawford. You don't waste a #7 pick on someone to be a backup and he knows that too... so he is going to continue to piss and moan until he gets what he wants, which since Jay has shown he can perform, is hopefully a trade.
> 
> I'm glad you guys are so supportive and still sticking with Jamal, but it just doesn't make sense in many ways. We need to move him before his value keeps spiraling down.
> ...


Totally agree Retro.

Lets see... the last PG to come out after his freshman year and be successful in the NBA? Hmmm.... Magic Johnson. Jason Kidd. Few and far between. The PG position, unlike others, is the hardest for players to learn 'on the job' in the NBA. In addition, all of the top PGs in the NBA had great collegiate careers w/ most leading their respective teams in the NCAA tourneys... and no I would not put Jamal anywhere near that category of success. The truth is Jamal's future in this league is at the 2 or a tweener and spot starter at the PG position.

If we could steal away Michael Redd, then that would be a total coup for the Bulls. Right now the Bulls need a consistent outside threat, and Hassell couldn't hit the side of a barn w/ the way his shot is lately. Redd would be a great additon to the Bulls.

In reality, Crawford isn't going anywhere I think... Jay has solidified the PG position, so Crawford will have to simmer on the pine and get spot minutes here and there. His value aroudn the league isn't great, and it looks like we're stuck waiting for some consistency from a kid whose already in his 3rd NBA season.


VD


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> Totally agree Retro.
> ...


Guess who? 


--- FG --- --- FT --- -- 3PT -- REBOUNDS
YEAR TM G MIN ATT PCT ATT PCT ATT PCT OFF TOT AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
99-00 Hou 77 36.1 14.5 44.5 4.7 78.6 4.0 34.5 2.0 5.3 6.6 1.5 0.4 4.0 3.0 18.0
00-01 Hou 80 39.9 15.2 45.1 5.5 81.7 4.2 39.6 2.4 6.9 6.5 1.8 0.4 3.3 3.4 19.9
01-02 Hou 57 41.1 17.7 41.7 7.4 77.3 3.7 32.4 1.8 7.0 6.4 1.2 0.4 3.9 3.0 21.6
02-03 Hou 5 38.8 20.8 51.9 9.0 84.4 2.6 46.2 2.8 8.4 5.6 0.8 0.8 4.2 3.4 30.4


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Guess who?
> ...


Franchise came out after his junior year in college at Maryland, he had two years of JC ball previous to that. And your point is?



VD


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I misread your post, VD.

Though I don't know why "coming out after his freshman year" is relevent to anything ;-)

My point is that there are high-pick PGs that do well.

Regards


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> I misread your post, VD.
> 
> Though I don't know why "coming out after his freshman year" is relevent to anything ;-)
> ...


I agree about the high-pick PGs. Bibby at #2 in '98, Francis at #2 and Baron at #3 and Miller at #9 in '00, the list goes on.

I am just arguing the fact that the PG position is the hardest position to learn 'on the job' in the pros. Every single elite PG today either 1) experienced great individual and team success in college and NCAA tourneys and 2) didnt' come out after their frosh year (sans Kidd). In other words, Crawford odds are greatly stacked against him.


VD


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> You're still not getting it... Jamal WON'T settle for being a backup. This is obvious in the way he has conducted himself since he has come to Chicago... if we don't deal him, he'll simply walk when his option is done.
> ...


this is what gets me, internet posters who think they _know_ whats on jamal's mind based on sam smith and KC johnson articles, i say BS, we can only speculate at this point, can we all here just admit we have no idea whats going on in jamal's head?

and if jay can blow up when given a chance to play his game with the triangle out the window, whats to say that jamal couldnt do the same if BC told him to play his game as well?


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

for the record, i know that jay is our man, but i wouldnt rule out jamal breaking out if given the chance to play his game like jay did after BC removed the handcuffs, no need to trade jamal so fast, theres plenty of time from now until the trade deadline for jamal to break out and thus raise his trade value

but please BC, lets keep the gameplan as it was last night, no more triangle for now


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> and if jay can blow up when given a chance to play his game with the triangle out the window, whats to say that jamal couldnt do the same if BC told him to play his game as well?


You're kidding me right? Really Johnny, do you believe this? Typical 'fallacy of composition' taking place here. Jamal's career highs in assists and rebounds is 7. He's taken 17 free throws in 600 NBA minutes the last 2 seasons. Jay has taken 22 free throws in 218 NBA minutes. Their games are completely different. They're both young PGs, but that's where the comparison ends.

I find it curious that so many here are so defensive of Crawford, when he has yet to prove on any level of being a NBA starter quality PG. Throw out the fact that he's 6'5" and an endorsement from MJ, and there's little left for this kid to stand on. Its his 3rd NBA season, and much more is expected from him. Time to take a more critical look at his game.



VD


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

I have been one of the biggest Crawford supporters here and at RealGM, but lets be real. Jamal has gotten some substantial opportunities and he has done nothing close to what J-Will did last night. You will never convince anyone who knows about basketball that he could put up those numbers. No one!


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> You're kidding me right?  Really Johnny, do you believe this? Typical 'fallacy of composition' taking place here. Jamal's career highs in assists and rebounds is 7. He's taken 17 free throws in 600 NBA minutes the last 2 seasons. Jay has taken 22 free throws in 218 NBA minutes. Their games are completely different. They're both young PGs, but that's where the comparison ends.
> ...


 jay is better then JC, jay is our man, IMO. that said, who's to say jamal cant have a "breakout game" if given the same freedom? thats not to say he could top jay's 26 14 and 13, but considering how little jamal has proven so far, id say a 17 point, 7 assits 4 rebound night(which jay could do in his sleep) would be enough to be considered a "breakout game" for him, id say thats enough to get other teams to pick up the phones

but in order for that to happen, we'd have to let jamal loose and play his game, we'l never know if we force jamal to differ to jalen in the triangle offense, lets at least _try_ to see what we've got in jamal before we ship him for a bag of peanuts because lets face it, his market value around the league is very low right now, we could get his value up if we let him loose IMHO, its worth a try isnt it?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

JC is a project at point guard, from a time when the Bulls didn't have any other real option, except maybe Rose.

JC will in no way be a wasted high draft pick if he fills the Steve Kerr/John Paxson role for the team. He could do it for years, and the one thing he really has demonstrated is a strong ability to hit the 3.

Kerr played 4 seasons for the bulls, in 82 games each year. He played 2036, 1839, 1919, and 1861 minutes.

2036/82 = 25 minutes per game; not a shabby amount of time for someone like JC to get considering the team has JWill.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> this is what gets me, internet posters who think they _know_ whats on jamal's mind based on sam smith and KC johnson articles, i say BS, we can only speculate at this point, can we all here just admit we have no idea whats going on in jamal's head?
> 
> and if jay can blow up when given a chance to play his game with the triangle out the window, whats to say that jamal couldnt do the same if BC told him to play his game as well?


Take off the Rose colored glasses my friend... there have been quotes from his agent talking about his lack of PT and other issues... and you know, those sportwriters get paid to get the story, they just don't make things up.

Finally, Crawford's demeanor and attitude are the only tell tale signs you need. If you can't draw a conclusion off of that, then sorry for ya.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> Take off the Rose colored glasses my friend... there have been quotes from his agent talking about his lack of PT and other issues... and you know, those sportwriters get paid to get the story, they just don't make things up.
> ...


they dont just make things up? AHEM... jalen rose for spreewell.... jk is actively shopping jalen..... erob, fizer and crawford for antwan jamison.... jerry krause is unhappy with rose's lack of leadership.... jalen isnt the right mentor for eddy and tyson "according to krause" etc... 

what exactly is his attitude and demeanor? do you have any pics for us to see because i sure as heck havent seen jamal look like he wants out, but hey, im not a licensed face reader :|


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

I'm with JohnnyB on this one. It's interesting how people can look at the same facts and come up with differing conclusions. In my mind JC isn't so hard to read. He's a skinny kid with great latent talent inside that wirey frame with a fragile ego, a lot of heart and a lot of confusion. People are challenged throughout life and JC is being challenged now. Why not see how he responds? He responded well to his rehab assignment following his knee injury. How often do we talk about JC's knee? Not ever any more. Lets give the kid some credit for coming back to full health. Last time I checked Jay didn't have any such injury to bounce back from. JC if given free reign with the ball, as JWill was can be an effective back-up point guard for us. I'm quite confident of that. And right now he's a back-up point guard with lots of upside. All this stuff about him being in the league 3 years. So what! People develop at different rates, he had a meaningless rookie year on the bench of Tim Floyd's team, then he blew out his knee, and now he's making an honest attempt at a starting position against JWIll. I agree that he should never have been promised the starting job, that probably added to his confusion, but players learn to deal with that kind of thing. Lets not lose sight of what JC can do... he's still 6'5", quick, a great cross-over, good court vision and a good stroke from outside. The engine is his brain is the biggest question mark now, and I say it's this organization's responsibility to help train JC's mind. BillC should continue to give JC tough love. IF JC can see an opportunity in his current predicament then he can begin to make a foundation for a comeback. But if his vision of the world remains in a hazy veil of skepticism and doubt then he's never going to flow back into the game. When developing youth you've got to be patient. Lets give JC another couple of months to work his way back into things. Like JohnnyB said, he doesn't have much trade value now anyway. It's better to wait.


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## higginj44 (Jul 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>settinUpShop</b>!
> Hey, how do you statistics for various players by year, any year?
> I want to see when these players first scored a tripple double their rookie year:
> 
> ...


Hey SuS,

I made an honest effort to dig up some info on this, and here is what I was able to come up with. I got most of this off of nba.com

Michael Bibby - 1st career triple-double (Game Lost), totaling 14 points, 11 assists and 11 rebounds against the Dallas Mavericks on 4/2/00 - *2nd season*

Stephon Marbury - 1st career triple-double (Game Won :upset: ) with 33 points, 12 assists and a career-high 11 rebounds vs. Chicago on Jan. 20, 2001 *6th season*

Andre Miller - 1st career triple-double, tallying 28 points, 12 assists and 10 rebounds in a 102-94 loss to Atlanta on 2/5/00 - *1st season - 47th game*

Steve Francis - Compiled his first career triple-double (Game Lost) by scoring 25 points and setting career highs of 17 rebounds and 14 assists vs. Golden State on Jan. 27, 2000 - *1st season - 42nd game* 

Sam Cassell - Never 

Jason Kidd - Recorded a league leading *four triple-doubles in his rookie season*, all of which came in the *last three weeks of the season*

Kevin Johnson - *3 triple doubles in rookie season* after being traded to Phoenix at *midway point of season*

Gary Payton - Unable to find info

Tim Hardaway - Unable to find info


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## ChuBerto (Jul 26, 2002)

*Wow, nice work!*



> Originally posted by <b>higginj44</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey SuS,
> ...


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## Outkast1 (Jun 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>settinUpShop</b>!
> I'm with JohnnyB on this one. It's interesting how people can look at the same facts and come up with differing conclusions. In my mind JC isn't so hard to read. He's a skinny kid with great latent talent inside that wirey frame with a fragile ego, a lot of heart and a lot of confusion. People are challenged throughout life and JC is being challenged now. Why not see how he responds? He responded well to his rehab assignment following his knee injury. How often do we talk about JC's knee? Not ever any more. Lets give the kid some credit for coming back to full health. Last time I checked Jay didn't have any such injury to bounce back from. JC if given free reign with the ball, as JWill was can be an effective back-up point guard for us. I'm quite confident of that. And right now he's a back-up point guard with lots of upside. All this stuff about him being in the league 3 years. So what! People develop at different rates, he had a meaningless rookie year on the bench of Tim Floyd's team, then he blew out his knee, and now he's making an honest attempt at a starting position against JWIll. I agree that he should never have been promised the starting job, that probably added to his confusion, but players learn to deal with that kind of thing. Lets not lose sight of what JC can do... he's still 6'5", quick, a great cross-over, good court vision and a good stroke from outside. The engine is his brain is the biggest question mark now, and I say it's this organization's responsibility to help train JC's mind. BillC should continue to give JC tough love. IF JC can see an opportunity in his current predicament then he can begin to make a foundation for a comeback. But if his vision of the world remains in a hazy veil of skepticism and doubt then he's never going to flow back into the game. When developing youth you've got to be patient. Lets give JC another couple of months to work his way back into things. Like JohnnyB said, he doesn't have much trade value now anyway. It's better to wait.


Excellent post.


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## robert60446 (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>settinUpShop</b>!
> 
> 
> ...Now if we can just get the same kind of break-out game for Chandler and Curry.




You have absolutely right! I can’t tell how anxious I was about Chandler and Curry at the begging of the season. I thought, that the kids are ready to roll. So far, it looks like I was wrong…Curry from most of the court minutes looks like he is still in the “sleep mode”. Chandler, it is a completely different story. Every bit of Chandler’s body is screaming for an action. But because of that, he’s making stupid fouls and he is force to sit at the bench. What I’m waiting for is a strong and consistent performance. Come on kids, its time to grow up. Take an example from Jay Williams.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>settinUpShop</b>!
> I'm with JohnnyB on this one. It's interesting how people can look at the same facts and come up with differing conclusions. In my mind JC isn't so hard to read. He's a skinny kid with great latent talent inside that wirey frame with a fragile ego, a lot of heart and a lot of confusion. People are challenged throughout life and JC is being challenged now. Why not see how he responds? He responded well to his rehab assignment following his knee injury. How often do we talk about JC's knee? Not ever any more. Lets , give the kid some credit for coming back to full health. Last time I checked Jay didn't have any such injury to bounce back from. JC if given free reign with the ball, as JWill was can be an effective back-up point guard for us. I'm quite confident of that. And right now he's a back-up point guard with lots of upside. All this stuff about him being in the league 3 years. So what! People develop at different rates, he had a meaningless rookie year on the bench of Tim Floyd's team, then he blew out his knee, and now he's making an honest attempt at a starting position against JWIll. I agree that he should never have been promised the starting job, that probably added to his confusion, but players learn to deal with that kind of thing. Lets not lose sight of what JC can do... he's still 6'5", quick, a great cross-over, good court vision and a good stroke from outside. The engine is his brain is the biggest question mark now, and I say it's this organization's responsibility to help train JC's mind. BillC should continue to give JC tough love. IF JC can see an opportunity in his current predicament then he can begin to make a foundation for a comeback. But if his vision of the world remains in a hazy veil of skepticism and doubt then he's never going to flow back into the game. When developing youth you've got to be patient. Lets give JC another couple of months to work his way back into things. Like JohnnyB said, he doesn't have much trade value now anyway. It's better to wait.


Here we go again. He's 6'5", upside, great cross-over, good outside shot... wronged by Tim Floyd, fragile ego, blah blah blah. I'm willing to give Jamal a second chance (or is it third, or fourth) only b/c Jerry K believes in this kid and he likely won't be traded for cap fodder or a draft pick anytime soon. Jerry K drafted him with a high lottery pick and recently gave the managerial 'vote of confidence' so yes, he isn't going anywhere.

I find it funny that the staunch Jamal supporters are now rallying to keep him as a backup PG. Just two weeks ago, they were saying Jamal would be a better PG than Jay Williams. Hmm.. how times have changed 

I'm all for keeping Jamal as a backup, provided he is happy w/ that role. But for a kid who has shown little commitment to an organization, had run-ins with his last 3 coaches, and has a sheister agent mouthpiece that has the nerve to say he deserved the starting job..... well I'll believe it when I see it.



VD


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> Here we go again. He's 6'5", upside, great cross-over, good outside shot... wronged by Tim Floyd, fragile ego, blah blah blah. I'm willing to give Jamal a second chance (or is it third, or fourth) only b/c Jerry K believes in this kid and he likely won't be traded for cap fodder or a draft pick anytime soon. Jerry K drafted him with a high lottery pick and recently gave the managerial 'vote of confidence' so yes, he isn't going anywhere.
> ...


I resent you labeling me as a "staunch Jamal supporter". I am a Chicago Bulls fan, period. My interest in Jamal is purely based on what i believe is for the benefit of this team, and all I'm saying is lets give him some more time, a couple of months to see what he does rather than writing him off after 7 games in the regular season. It amazes me how quickly some people rush to judgement. This does not preclude me from deciding a few months from now, when the trade deadline actually comes around and most trades become solidified, that we should trade JC for a second round draft pick. But for now we are in need of a back-up point and Jamal just needs to show us his game from the end of last year in order to be that type of player. Lets remember that we're talking about a kids attitude, and not a kids ability. Attitudes can be corrected, talent is a gift and this kid is very gifted. People who fail to see this continue to cry, "what has he shown me lately?" What, after 7 games in the regular season with erratic minutes? You base your judgement off of that?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I have a feeling Fizer will be moved. Crawford might still stay with is, unless the knock your sockes off type trade comes along. But who would do that at this time? I dont see that type of trade happening


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>higginj44</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey SuS,
> ...


Higgins! You are my hero. 

This begs the question... How many triple doubles will JWill have his rookie season? He's already put himself into some elite company by accomplishing the feat in only his 7th game. You then consider the fact that he did this with a team as young as the Bulls AND against Jason Kidd and that's some pretty impressive stuff.

Does anyone know if Jamaal Tinsley record a triple double last year? I should have also added Steve Nash to the list, wonder when he got his first thriple-D.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

yea, jamal tinsley recorded a line something to the effect of 19 points, 10 rebounds and 22 assists in november of last year


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

and i also remember clipper fans saying that lamar odom was a triple double machine his rookie season


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## Nater (Jul 10, 2002)

Tinsley had two last year:

11/22 -- 19 Pts, 11 Reb, 23 Ast vs. Washington

03/15 -- 11 Pts, 10 Reb, 10 Ast vs. Minnesota


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

Johnny, I make the comparison to those afforementioned players because they play the point and are about the same size as JWill. No doubt TMac, GHill, Kobe, etc. also probably deserve mention as players who get the thriple-d on a regular basis, but they're an entirely different type of player by virtue of their size.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> and i also remember clipper fans saying that lamar odom was a triple double machine his rookie season


His first was in December against Houston. He had 3 triple dips his rookie year.!!!!


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>settinUpShop</b>!
> Just want to create a place where JWill doubters can come to in order to see the light.
> 
> http://www.nba.com/games/20021109/NJNCHI/recap.html
> ...


i like your enthusiasm but it is just one game have you ever heard of a guy named labradford Smith?

Well if you haven't Labradford Smith is a guy who threw in 37 on MJ in his rookie season ( i believe this was in 91 )

now i'm not saying Jay williams is a bust because i dont believe he is i believe he is a going to be a very good player but....its just one game

nobodys career is made or lost in a day or night


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

You guys crack me up with your insane comparisons...

First, Tins is a good player who has mental issues. He is also now going through his sophomore slump although he is still giving 8 and 7 or something close to that in 30mpg. He doesn't need to score on that team that has an unlimited arsenal as it is.

If Jay had the options Tins had last year, he could get 23 assists to... having Reggie Miller can jumpers all day off his corner screens are money. Chalk me up for 10 apg if I played for the Pacers on that alone.

---

LaBradford Smith? C'mon... are you serious. I really don't even want to touch this (sniff, sniff) - but okay. Seriously, where did you pull that one from?

He was actually not a bad player at all, at least in college, and despite what happened, he didn't get opportunity in the NBA. To succeed in the NBA, you need opportunity and unlike Mr. Smith, Jay will get it.


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

I don't know any LaBradford, I don't want to know any LaBradford, because quite frankly I don't care. JWill could have four triple doubles by All-Star break, which would be an amazing achievement when you look at the production of other top point guards during their rookie seasons. Did you notice how JWill got this triple double? He blew past every required category about as quickly as he did Jason Kidd off the dribble drive. Please, can I get a witness!


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>settinUpShop</b>!
> I don't know any LaBradford, I don't want to know any LaBradford, because quite frankly I don't care. JWill could have four triple doubles by All-Star break, which would be an amazing achievement when you look at the production of other top point guards during their rookie seasons. Did you notice how JWill got this triple double? He blew past every required category about as quickly as he did Jason Kidd off the dribble drive. Please, can I get a witness!


Amen!

Brother SuS... pass around the offerin' plate.


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

Thank you Retro! :yes:


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## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>settinUpShop</b>!
> 
> 
> What, after 7 games in the regular season with erratic minutes? You base your judgement off of that?


That didn't seem to stop the JC fanatics from parading his 4-2 starting record.  

He's *J*amal *C*rawford not *J*esus *C*hrist.


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## Peter Vescey (Oct 23, 2002)

*Kudos KC*

KC - Kudos on an intelligent statement and not feeling as though you had to defend JC to the bitter end. Too often posters take one stance and hold it - "Till Death Do Them Part!"



> Originally posted by KC:
> 
> I have been one of the biggest Crawford supporters here and at RealGM, but lets be real. Jamal has gotten some substantial opportunities and he has done nothing close to what J-Will did last night. You will never convince anyone who knows about basketball that he could put up those numbers. No one!


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by KC:
> 
> I have been one of the biggest Crawford supporters here and at RealGM, but lets be real. Jamal has gotten some substantial opportunities and he has done nothing close to what J-Will did last night. You will never convince anyone who knows about basketball that he could put up those numbers. No one!


Well what type of time horizon are we talking about. Isn't it possible that in 2 years JC will have filled out to a stealthy and athletic 6'5" combo guard? If he can, then I'd say the odds of him putting up triple doubles are pretty good. The limiting factor is going to be his rebounds afterall. I have no doubt that he can shot and dish a double double. Infact we're likely to see him do that this year. Of course then there is the issue of defense, or lack there of. But in this regard both JC and JWill have a lot of work to do. Practicing against one another should aid their development, with the competitive nature of these two we know they'll be pushing one another hard in practice. This is another benefit to having JC on our roster, although I admit it would be nice to have a mentoring type of pg on our roster.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>settinUpShop</b>!
> 
> 
> Well what type of time horizon are we talking about. Isn't it possible that in 2 years JC will have filled out to a stealthy and athletic 6'5" combo guard? If he can, then I'd say the odds of him putting up triple doubles are pretty good. The limiting factor is going to be his rebounds afterall. I have no doubt that he can shot and dish a double double. Infact we're likely to see him do that this year. Of course then there is the issue of defense, or lack there of. But in this regard both JC and JWill have a lot of work to do. Practicing against one another should aid their development, with the competitive nature of these two we know they'll be pushing one another hard in practice. This is another benefit to having JC on our roster, although I admit it would be nice to have a mentoring type of pg on our roster.


My only question is, how long do we wait? Didn't he have a whole summer to "fill out" and work on his SG skills? He knew after the draft that his only opportunity for big minutes would be to play at the 2. If he is a triple-double type performer, it won't be for Chicago. BC has already said that we won't see Craw and J-Will in the game at the same time. That pretty much slams the door on JC ever being a factor with this team.

One more thing, I question whether or not Jamal is 6'5". He looks shorter than Trenton Hassell.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> My only question is, how long do we wait? Didn't he have a whole summer to "fill out" and work on his SG skills? He knew after the draft that his only opportunity for big minutes would be to play at the 2. If he is a triple-double type performer, it won't be for Chicago. BC has already said that we won't see Craw and J-Will in the game at the same time. That pretty much slams the door on JC ever being a factor with this team.
> ...


Yes. Crawford's future is murky at best.

Until proven otherwise... <b>Jamal Crawford = Keyon Dooling</b>


Jamal Crawford career stats:
90 games /18.3min pg/ 39%FG/ 5.8ppg/1.6reb/2.4asst/.74steal/1.4TO's pg

Keyon Dooling career stats:
96 games / 15.6min pg/ 41%FG/ 5.7ppg/1reb/2asst/.5steal/1.15TO's pg

I wonder if Clippers fans are campaiging hard that Keyon gets minutes at the expense of Andre Miller? 




VD


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

Wow, *Vin!* That's a pretty appropriate comparison. While a don't agree that we need to get rid of Crawdad, your comparison puts the situation in a very clear perspective.

Kudos.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes. Crawford's future is murky at best.
> ...


I've already posted their comparative stats this year.... do I need to do it again? Obviously you are a poor judge of talent! Nice cheap shot though, Keyon Dooling is extremely effective and can play the 2 as well, you should know better than to compare the two!!!!!!:curse:


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> Wow, *Vin!* That's a pretty appropriate comparison. While a don't agree that we need to get rid of Crawdad, your comparison puts the situation in a very clear perspective.
> 
> Kudos.


do yourself a favor and actually watch a clippers game and dooling play before you compare him to crawford who looks like a deer in headlights when hes out on the court


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

Vin I agree JC should have been in the Berto Center all summer working with our weight trainers, but what's done is done. JC felt slighted by the drafting of JWill and although that's an honest and perhaps understandable reaction, turning a cold shoulder to your teammates in the offseason does not send the right message. HOpefully JC has learned from this. Realistically it will take another year of off-season weight training to get JC to a suitable 2 guard weight. Will BillC and his staff be patient enough to see him through to this end? Will Krause get a deal that he likes? So much to speculate on, after so few games.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> I've already posted their comparative stats this year.... do I need to do it again? Obviously you are a poor judge of talent! Nice cheap shot though, Keyon Dooling is extremely effective and can play the 2 as well, you should know better than to compare the two!!!!!!:curse:


I think if anything, *'Show!*, *Vin's!* comparison is of Dooling to 'Dre. That the distance between Crawdad and Jay is similar to the distance between Dooling and Miller. In essence, (to paraphrase) "While both Dooling and Crawdad are both players with nice upside, neither should be taking time away from Miller or Williams".

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> I've already posted their comparative stats this year.... do I need to do it again? Obviously you are a poor judge of talent! Nice cheap shot though, Keyon Dooling is extremely effective and can play the 2 as well, you should know better than to compare the two!!!!!!:curse:


Hey Clip Show... hey man no offense towards Keyon. I would rather have him as a backup PG than Jamal (I can see many Bulls fans gasping as they read this). I've seen Keyon play numerous times, he can play and I love his aggressiveness w/ the ball. He has shot 150 more FTs than Jamal in less minutes during his NBA career. He takes the ball to the hoop.

I just threw the comparison out there as a point of reference for Bulls fans. Keyon serves as an apt litmus for Crawford's game (both were considered the top PGs in the 2000 draft, Jamal went #8 and Keyon #10)

No need to be hypersensitive.

Peace.



VD


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> I think if anything, *'Show!*, *Vin's!* comparison is of Dooling to 'Dre. That the distance between Crawdad and Jay is similar to the distance between Dooling and Miller. In essence, (to paraphrase) "While both Dooling and Crawdad are both players with nice upside, neither should be taking time away from Miller or Williams".
> ...


I agree. I just had to say something about the comparison, with the stats and all, Keyon Dooling whether he scores 5 or 25 is an effective player when on the court. JC has shown only that he hurts his team when he gets any minutes. IMHO Dooling will be a starter somewhere in the next two seasons, maybe sooner!


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey Clip Show... hey man no offense towards Keyon. I would rather have him as a backup PG than Jamal (I can see many Bulls fans gasping as they read this). I've seen Keyon play numerous times, he can play and I love his aggressiveness w/ the ball. He has shot 150 more FTs than Jamal in less minutes during his NBA career. He takes the ball to the hoop.
> ...


Cool...... I've just had this debate with other bulls posters thats alll....


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> I think if anything, *'Show!*, *Vin's!* comparison is of Dooling to 'Dre. That the distance between Crawdad and Jay is similar to the distance between Dooling and Miller. In essence, (to paraphrase) "While both Dooling and Crawdad are both players with nice upside, neither should be taking time away from Miller or Williams".
> ...


I think your reading is correct Wynn.

I've never seen Dooling play, but JC has not played well this year, and that happens, but he'll get over it and put in some good games as well. I've got complete confidence in that.

As for taking away minutes from JWill, it should be clear by now that JWill is the only one who can take minutes away from himself. And that's likely to happen when he's stinking up the gym as he's more than likely to do as a rookie point guard. On nights like that JC steps up with something to prove. So far having somthing to prove has made JC a worse player, because he tries to do too much. He's looking for the perfect pass, the highlight film cross-over, instead of following the play on the court. But eventually he'll see the light and he'll turn it around and start playing his game. Trust me. 

Time... time... time... is on my side.... yes it is...


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

.......obtuse......I'm not even gonna respond to that. 
If you don't want to watch streetball, then why would you want to watch a high school game?


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> .......obtuse......I'm not even gonna respond to that.
> If you don't want to watch streetball, then why would you want to watch a high school game?


*'Clip!*....... my apologies. I obviously didn't remove the post quickly enough. My evil twin put me in troll mode.

Peace.


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

From the Chi-Trib:

"Jay Williams likely is looking at more big-minute outings after his triple-double in 45 minutes against New Jersey in his seventh game. In NBA history, *only five other rookies* achieved their first triple-double sooner."

It'd be nice if they mentioned who those five were.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

wow all ths singlemindednes on one thread its fun to watch knowing how fickle a lot of people on this board are.

j-will has a very bad game all the luke warmers say hes not a true point and all the haters come that far from calling him a scrub and he is often defended with the it was just one game argument 

he has a very good game and he's the next coming of whoever 

whatever is in the kool aid i'm glad i'm not drinking it and some of you might want to put the cup down before the next game because if he has 3 assist 5 to night like any rookie could especially one known for having turnover problems your gonna feel foolish and me i'm the kind of guy on a bad day who might pointit out to you


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> wow all ths singlemindednes on one thread its fun to watch knowing how fickle a lot of people on this board are.
> 
> j-will has a very bad game all the luke warmers say hes not a true point and all the haters come that far from calling him a scrub and he is often defended with the it was just one game argument
> ...


In the business, they call you a mark. I'm all over it.


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## higginj44 (Jul 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>settinUpShop</b>!
> From the Chi-Trib:
> 
> "Jay Williams likely is looking at more big-minute outings after his triple-double in 45 minutes against New Jersey in his seventh game. In NBA history, *only five other rookies* achieved their first triple-double sooner."
> ...


Hey SuS,

I found this on the Daily Herald site:

"_Only five players in NBA history needed fewer games to record their first professional triple-double - Oscar Robertson (one game), Hambone Williams, Connie Hawkins, Guy Rodgers and Magic Johnson (five each)._"

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/bulls_story.asp?intID=3757231


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> In the business, they call you a mark. I'm all over it.


?? Huh?


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>higginj44</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey SuS,
> ...


Thanks Higgins!!


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> wow all ths singlemindednes on one thread its fun to watch knowing how fickle a lot of people on this board are.
> 
> j-will has a very bad game all the luke warmers say hes not a true point and all the haters come that far from calling him a scrub and he is often defended with the it was just one game argument
> ...


What did I say about doubters? Come one come all. Are we so hardened from four years of embarrasment that we can't see what's unfolding before our eyes? Not just in JWill but in our whole team. I'm actually quite amazed that people haven't come to yet. I don't feel any need to pound on my chest and say ooo... ooo... this is going to happen and on and on speculating. I just call it how I see it. You have a different perspective fine. So be it. Hang around a while and I'm pretty sure you'll come around. After JWill has 4 triple doubles by All-Star break. Ooops, I guess I did predict something. Guess we'll have to wait and see huh.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

say what you will but i have a good memory one that extends to at least the afternoon before jay will dropped his trip-doub 

one game either way doesn't make you a star or bust its a collection of work and until then the jury's out as it has been from the beginning


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

thought i'd bring this thread back in anticipation of tonights game against the nets. 

here's also an article from the Suntimes prepping up for tonights matchup between JWill and JKidd.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/cst-spt-bull23.html

Jay also stated after Saturday's game that he thinks if he hadn't gone out of the game to get stitches he would have been able to put up a triple double. This says to me that Jay's starting to feel more comfortable in his game. I think we can expect to see some gaudy numbers from Jay in the second half of the season. As for tonights game, I say JKidd gets the better of JWill, but you know who I'll be rooting for.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>settinUpShop</b>!
> thought i'd bring this thread back in anticipation of tonights game against the nets.
> 
> here's also an article from the Suntimes prepping up for tonights matchup between JWill and JKidd.
> ...


I'm pretty psyched about tonight's game as well.

Jay is playing in front of a home crowd, and against the best PG in the NBA, in a road game... I'm not worried about the numbers so much as he continues to play good defense, get lots of assists, and continue to hit big buckets in the 4th (as he has been the last 6-7 games)... and the Bulls win games.

Getting 14 pts /13 asts the other night and holding Tinsley to 0 pts was very encouraging. 


VD


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