# What's Crawford's Problem?



## ChiTown4Life (Sep 28, 2002)

If you look at some of the other teams around the league, have 
you noticed some of the other quality point guards that play backup and don't complain? I appreciate the crawford's desire to start, but he has to earn the spot in order to run this team. This is a team , baby!!! A good example of a very good backup point guard is Bobby Jackson of Sac-Town. His role is just as important as a starting role. I think Crawford needs to get over his fragile ego and just play ball and do his part to help win us some games!! What do you guys think?


----------



## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

Yup. The game is played between the lines and not at pickup games either. Its time to shutup and play and may the best man win.


----------



## Chops (May 30, 2002)

Can someone post a quote of Jamal complaining about being the backup? Can anyone post a quote of Bill Cartwright saying that J-Will is already the starter?


----------



## LoaKhoet (Aug 20, 2002)

Also, Bibby has a $80M constract and will likely make the All-Stars team if lucky. Bobby Jackson?? He will never make the all-stars team while making not even 1/2 of Bibby. 

Another good example is Best/Jackson. Look at what Jackson got: A $16M contract. Best?? $1.1M (Veteran Minimum) contract. 

U want more??? 

Crawford will not want to play behind Williams. If Williams somehow outplays him (pretty sure will) then he will ask Krauz for a trade. It's that simple. That's why "Crawford will be traded before February if he doesn't learn how to play SG".


----------



## LoaKhoet (Aug 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Can someone post a quote of Jamal complaining about being the backup? Can anyone post a quote of Bill Cartwright saying that J-Will is already the starter?


Currently, Jamal is the starter. We are talking about 4-5 months from now. JWills will replace him. And trust me, Jamal will compain about being a back-up to JWills.


----------



## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LoaKhoet</b>!
> Also, Bibby has a $80M constract and will likely make the All-Stars team if lucky. Bobby Jackson?? He will never make the all-stars team while making not even 1/2 of Bibby.
> 
> Another good example is Best/Jackson. Look at what Jackson got: A $16M contract. Best?? $1.1M (Veteran Minimum) contract.
> ...


Are you talking to me? Where is that quote from?


----------



## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LoaKhoet</b>!
> 
> 
> Currently, Jamal is the starter. We are talking about 4-5 months from now. JWills will replace him. And trust me, Jamal will compain about being a back-up to JWills.


Ok, that is your opinion, but this thread was started by saying "What is Crawford's problem." I don't understand what his problem is *right now*.


----------



## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

Crawford was whiney when the Bulls drafted JW. He wont be satisfied if his starting job is taken away. He has threatened through his agent that if his role is diminished he will ask Krause for a trade. Thats a bad attitude. Its already under the surface.


----------



## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>WshflThinking</b>!
> Crawford was whiney when the Bulls drafted JW.


Do you have any links to any sites that have quotes of him whining? I missed this, so that would be helpful.



> He wont be satisfied if his starting job is taken away.


This could be true, but I think we should give him a chance to do the right thing before we criticize him for doing something he hasn't done yet.



> He has threatened through his agent that if his role is diminished he will ask Krause for a trade. Thats a bad attitude. Its already under the surface.


Again, quotes? Links? Anything?


----------



## ChiTown4Life (Sep 28, 2002)

Well, as for "What's Crawford's Problem".... he is showing his discouragement with the bulls franchise so far in my opinion by:

1. Not working out with his teammates this summer instead opting to work out in seattle, showing a lack of unity).

2. Although it is his choice, he has been working out at Hoops gym with Micheal Jordan... instead of with his teammates.

3. Didn't JK request that his players not work out at Hoops after the Mason incident?

I don't know about you, but I believe actions speak louder than words or quotes.


----------



## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

I dont think I can go back to the draft night comments by Crawford and his agent. Maybe if you are so intent on getting those exact quotes, you should read the archives of the Cubune and the Suntimes. These quotes were made.


----------



## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>WshflThinking</b>!
> I dont think I can go back to the draft night comments by Crawford and his agent. Maybe if you are so intent on getting those exact quotes, you should read the archives of the Cubune and the Suntimes. These quotes were made.


Yeah, I remember right after the draft that JC said (paraphrasing) "If I'm the PG of the future, why did they draft Jay?"

I wouldn't worry- like I've said many times, don't be surprised if Jay is the one who is traded- his trade value is already higher than JC's IMO.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiTown4Life</b>!
> Well, as for "What's Crawford's Problem".... he is showing his discouragement with the bulls franchise so far in my opinion by:
> 
> 1. Not working out with his teammates this summer instead opting to work out in seattle, showing a lack of unity).
> ...


When didn't Crawford work out with Jordan at the Hoops gym in the offseasons?


----------



## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, I remember right after the draft that JC said (paraphrasing) "If I'm the PG of the future, why did they draft Jay?"
> ...


Actually, Jamal said that before they drafted Jay. Afterwards, he raved about how they could play together...


----------



## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> When didn't Crawford work out with Jordan at the Hoops gym in the offseasons?


http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull30.html

Here is what Krause had to say-

_"Jamal chose to do what he chose to do, No one else has chosen to do that.

"So we'll have to see if it works for him. If it works for him, fine. Nothing I can do about it. He has the right.''_


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LoaKhoet</b>!
> Another good example is Best/Jackson. Look at what Jackson got: A $16M contract. Best?? $1.1M (Veteran Minimum) contract.


What Jackson are you talking about. Best signed with the heat 3yrs/7mil. Are you talking about Mark Jackson???. He just signed with Utah for the min


----------



## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, Jamal said that before they drafted Jay. Afterwards, he raved about how they could play together...


You may very well be right... I thought that JC said something after the draft like "why did they draft Jay if I am the PG of the future", but maybe it was only said before the draft.

Either way, you are 100% correct that JC has been quoted several times since the draft as saying (paraphrased) "there's no reason Jay and I can't play together".

Personally, I'm hoping that Jay (plus Fizer, our 2003 #1 pick, and whatever else is needed) will be traded for a super-stud SF of the future- giving us...

PG- JC
SG- Hassell
SF- super-stud
PF- Chandler
C- Curry


----------



## kingofkings (Jun 9, 2002)

*Just my opinion...*

My opinion, is that whoever starts at the point guard spot, generally eats up the majority of the minutes. I cannot think of any NBA team that splits the 48 minutes equally among 2 point guards.

The Bulls should not plan to start anyone, yet. They need to sit back and let them both go for it and see who will just step up and grab that starting spot. The Bulls organisation should not plan for anything until training camp is over and the decision is made.

My opinion, is that the Bulls will go with however is deemed to be steadier and able to play in control more. The last thing the Bulls want is the ball getting turned over and then giving up cheap easy transition baskets because of it.

I have read on many other forums, that people think tht Crawford should start because he has about a 6 inch height advantage and this will cause mismatches. This is crap, because the Bulls in general have a very big and tall lineup and the addition of Rose at the two spot and either Marshall or Robinson at the three, at 6"9, reduces the notion of Crawford is taller, so he should start.

Whoever has the better attitude towards team orientated goals will start and it will be very interesting to see who starts on opening night. Once again, I cannot think about any point guard tandems splitting the minutes equally. Regardless of who starts, the guy who will sit will see less minutes then the starting point gurad and the division of minutes will not be equal.


----------



## ChiTown4Life (Sep 28, 2002)

> Also, Bibby has a $80M constract and will likely make the All-Stars team if lucky. Bobby Jackson?? He will never make the all-stars team while making not even 1/2 of Bibby.





Maybe Bobby Jackson Wouldn't make the all star team, but he is one hellava point guard, and given the proper time as a starter,he could be a top performer on any team. In the same context, I can make the same argument for about Jamal Crawford. He may never be an all star point guard in this league either. Heck, Crawford is not even as good as bobby Jackson at this point in his unproven career in my opinion.


----------



## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

I agree with KC. There's no real evidence that Crawford is complaining about starting behind Jay... it's just assumed that we'd put that kind of humanistic relation onto him.

How is this guy SUPPOSED to feel, anyway? He's deemed the point guard of the future, and when given a chance at the end of last season, didn't do half bad at all. He's finally coming back from his injuries, stronger and quicker than before. He's got some other great talent around him now... the Brand-Artest-Mercer-Miller core of the season before was replaced by Chandler-Curry-Rose-Hassell. Maybe he felt like he had a place, finally, on this newer team, and that he had a hand in making them gell together.

Then the management uses their HIGHEST draft pick to take Jay Williams for keeps (if they took him as the consensus #2 and then traded him, it would have been a little easier to swallow). They used their second round pick on a guard that is touted to play backup minutes at the point. There is talk of moving JC to the SG spot, one that has a lot of competitors. What is Crawford supposed to do? I think the few comments about him being able to play with Jay are certainly encouraging. 

Just because he went home to think things out, practice and train with familiar faces, and improve his game with the greatest player of NBA history (MJ) instead of at the Berto Center where sometimes there's not enough people to get a scrimmage on... doesn't mean that he's going to balk at being benched, if he does get benched.


----------



## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> 
> 
> I wouldn't worry- like I've said many times, don't be surprised if Jay is the one who is traded- his trade value is already higher than JC's IMO.


Why would we trade JW if his value is already higher than JC's? Why would we keep an injury prone player with a ego problems and trade away a #2 pick in the draft? If thats what you believe will happen, forget it. Dont forget Crawford's watch is still running on west coast time. Like Miller who is from LA I soon expect Crawford to start his "I want to go home to play" talk. This year may be Payton's last in Seattle too. According to Crawford he spent most of his summer scrimaging with Sonic players. Soon he will want to play with them permanently. Hmmmm! Maybe we ought to hurry and trade Jay before that happens so we will be stuck with Brunson and Overton. :no:


----------



## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>WshflThinking</b>!
> 
> 
> Why would we trade JW if his value is already higher than JC's? Why would we keep an injury prone player with a ego problems and trade away a #2 pick in the draft? If thats what you believe will happen, forget it.


Last summer, who thought we'd trade Brand and keep Fizer when Brand was obviously better? Because you have to trade something to get something.



> Dont forget Crawford's watch is still running on west coast time. Like Miller who is from LA I soon expect Crawford to start his "I want to go home to play" talk.


Miller would still be in Cleveland if they would have simply given him a max extension, and if he doesn't get the max from Sterling, he won't worry about "playing at home" any more.




> This year may be Payton's last in Seattle too. According to Crawford he spent most of his summer scrimaging with Sonic players. Soon he will want to play with them permanently. Hmmmm! Maybe we ought to hurry and trade Jay before that happens so we will be stuck with Brunson and Overton. :no:


Oakley spent most of the summer working out with Bulls players, that means nothing. And who's to say we won't trade Jay for another PG, one who is more "triangle friendly" (as in taller, and more of a combo guard)?


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Crawford had a legitimate gripe IMO. He was touted as the Bulls "pg of the future" when he was drafted. One restrcicted rookie season and one ACL injury and all of the sudden everyone and their brother can't wait to trade him. All he has to do to get discouraged is to take a look at this board. I mean, I have seen some WHACK trade scenarios posted involving Crawford. This kid has MUCH game. He was just beginning to show it at the end of last season after rehabbing from his ACL. Time to trade him! LOL!

The guy shot over 50% from 3pt land in the games he started, thats pretty damn impressive.

My question is why shouldn't Jamal be upset? He's never really been given a chance and the majority of folks seem to think that the pg reigns should just be handed over to JWill on a silver platter. Why shouldn't JC be upset? All I can say is that Jamal WILL be the Bulls starter. Jamal WILL be given his chance to shine. I fully expect that he will make the most of it and people will be asking next season why anyone ever wanted to trade him.


----------



## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> 
> 
> Oakley spent most of the summer working out with Bulls players, that means nothing. And who's to say we won't trade Jay for another PG, one who is more "triangle friendly" (as in taller, and more of a combo guard)?


Yeah right, but Oakley was a Bull last year, Crawford wasnt a Sonic last year. Crawford has seemingly refused to work out with his teammates and chosen to workout with Jordan, not just last year when he tore up his knee but this summer too.

Who is to say this or who is to say that? Who is to say we wont trade Jay for Shaq? You can imagine anything your heart desires, I guess, if you really want JW gone, but you arent going to convince me. And the Brand situation was different due to his contract and desire to leave which has come out so I dont see a parallel there either. Sorry, count me as unconvinced on trading Jay. I expect Crawford to be gone by the beginning of training camp in 2003 at the latest if not by the trading deadline in Feb. Mason's injury might keep Crawford here the whole season.


----------



## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>WshflThinking</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah right, but Oakley was a Bull last year, Crawford wasnt a Sonic last year. Crawford has seemingly refused to work out with his teammates and chosen to workout with Jordan, not just last year when he tore up his knee but this summer too.


But JC is from Seattle, it's not surprising that he works out there during the summer. Why do you think so many players from other teams work out at Hoops? It's all Chicago boys for the most part.

Would I like to see JC move to Chicago and stay here all summer? Sure, but maybe there's a reason he doesn't. Maybe his girlfriend/wife, who has his child, won't move to Chicago.



> Who is to say this or who is to say that? Who is to say we wont trade Jay for Shaq? You can imagine anything your heart desires, I guess, if you really want JW gone, but you arent going to convince me.


When did I say I wanted Jay gone? I'm just giving my opinion, and I don't care one little bit if I "convince" you or anyone else.



> And the Brand situation was different due to his contract and desire to leave which has come out so I dont see a parallel there either.


Brand didn't want to leave one week into his first training camp- who's to say that Jay won't want to be traded if he can't beat out JC for the starting job?

Nobody can predict the future, we're all just giving our opinions here. Who knows, Krause may decide to keep Jay a Bull for life- I just don't see him building his team around a 6' PG.


----------



## Nater (Jul 10, 2002)

Like some others have said, we've gotta stop putting words in Crawford's mouth. It's true that he was a bit disappointed/confused when we drafted Williams, and I completely understand that. It's true that he worked out at home this summer. What's wrong with that? I have no problem with him being mentored by The Glove. But has Crawford asked to be traded? Not that we know of. Will he ask to be traded if JWill gains the starting role? Who knows?!?

In my world, I'd like to imagine that JW and JC will be satisfied with 24 minutes per game each. They both get two full quarters to call the shots. It'd be damn fine to have a slick PG on the floor every minute of the game. 

:rbanana: :wbanana: 

Here's to JW & JC making a feared PG tandem!


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

jamal has a doughter in seattle, i dont understand how people can vilify him for wanting to spend time with her, whats jamals problem? your kids arent as important anymore when your making millions of dallars!


----------



## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> jamal has a doughter in seattle, i dont understand how people can vilify him for wanting to spend time with her, whats jamals problem? your kids arent as important anymore when your making millions of dallars!


This is all good and fine. I've said this about 100 times, but I'll say it again.

The offseason is over. I don't care if the workouts are voluntary, or involuntary, you had your time to spend with your family and now you should be wherever the other members of the team are practicing.

As a professional athlete, you know that 9+ months out of the year you are going to have to be dedicated to your job. During those 9 months, sometimes you lose out on your personal life and family... it's just something you have to deal with. That is another reason why these guys get millions of dollars. This is only his 3rd year... think about what guys who had extra long careers went though? 

If he wants to be with his family 24/7, either ask to be traded back to Seattle or retire from the NBA and fall back on your deg...uh, go back to school and finish your degree. He chose his career path, didn't he?

Jamal has had plenty of opportunities and has blown every one of them. Whether it is skipping workouts, or practicing on MJ with a semi-hurt knee, Jamal has made the decisions that have determined the path his career has taken. If Jamal doesn't get the starting nod this season, the ONLY person he has to blame is himself.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> jamal has a doughter in seattle, i dont understand how people can vilify him for wanting to spend time with her, whats jamals problem? your kids arent as important anymore when your making millions of dallars!


Thank you! People are just waiting for Crawford to show signs of dissention, and as result people think he has a problem when he chooses to be with his family over his team. Have we all become so jaded about pro athletes that when one is put in a less than ideal situation we just assume that he'll start pouting? I'd be uneasy too if my starting job at my favorite position was taken away, but does that mean I would pout? JK is smart enough to give JC and Jay a chance to get to know each before he decides if they are compatible or not. Let's not forget, Crawford is 6'6, athletic, getting stronger, and can shoot the lights out-why can't he move to the 2? I don't mean right away, but give a little time to develope physically and decide if this is the situation he wants to be in. He'd be dangerous as a 2 with pg handles and passing ability.


----------



## ChiTown4Life (Sep 28, 2002)

Well put, brother.


----------



## ChiTown4Life (Sep 28, 2002)

I was responding to Retrodreams with " well put, brother". That's why he makes the big bucks.


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> Thank you! People are just waiting for Crawford to show signs of dissention, and as result people think he has a problem when he chooses to be with his family over his team. Have we all become so jaded about pro athletes that when one is put in a less than ideal situation we just assume that he'll start pouting? I'd be uneasy too if my starting job at my favorite position was taken away, but does that mean I would pout? JK is smart enough to give JC and Jay a chance to get to know each before he decides if they are compatible or not. Let's not forget, Crawford is 6'6, athletic, getting stronger, and can shoot the lights out-why can't he move to the 2? I don't mean right away, but give a little time to develope physically and decide if this is the situation he wants to be in. He'd be dangerous as a 2 with pg handles and passing ability.


I believe you have really hit the nail on the head with that. Itis entirely possible that the Bulls will ween Jamal into a 2 guard spot eventually, but until that time he will split time with JWill at the point.

Also, Jamal IS a Millionaire and he is a proffessional athlete. Still, players are not required to practice with their team during the offseason and I don't blame him one bit for working out in Seattle.


----------



## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

I think Nater has it right. It seems to me like people are just projecting this supposed disgruntled, bad attitude onto Jamal, when it's really not there. Or if it is, he certainly hasn't shown it. 

Any quote that I have read from Jamal has been along the lines of 'Jay's a great player, we'll see what happens, yadi yadi yada'

Well whoop te di doo. What is he supposed to say? I've never read any quote from Jamal, Cartwright, Krause or anybody else saying that Jamal has displayed a bad or pouty attitude, it's all been speculation and projection by the media, and melodramatic fans who are running around like the sky is falling. It's possible that he has made his unhappiness unclear with management, the coaching staff, etc., but I've never actually read anything to confirm it. 

As far as I can tell, this pg controversy of ours has been mostly created by the media. I'm sure both players are aware of the situation, and that they will compete for a starting job, but neither one of them has displayed anything that would indicate that they want to be traded, or a childish attitude, or anything else of the like. It seems to me that people are making to many assumptions about Jamal, and I think it's important that we wait for the facts to reveal themselves before we label him as some sort of malcontent.


----------



## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> 
> 
> Personally, I'm hoping that Jay (plus Fizer, our 2003 #1 pick, and whatever else is needed) will be traded for a super-stud SF of the future- giving us...
> ...


That will never be on my wish list. There isnt a SF out there of that value to trade all that talent for. Besides I'd trade JC before I'd trade JW. JW is the real deal. I havent seen anyone come out of school in YEARS that qualified to lead a team. Besides with the Bulls missing the playoffs this year there will be another high #1 pick, possibly a potential superstar SF. This team has more talent on it than its had since Jordan retired in 1998. I am not ready to throw it away.


----------



## k^2 (Jun 11, 2002)

Doesn't it mean anything that he hurried his rehabilitation from a career-threatening injury last year in order to come back and play for the worst team in the NBA that didn't have a prayer at making the playoffs? Yeah he's not dedicated to the Bulls at all... 

Wouldn't you be mad if you were drafted highly and told that you were the PG of the future...then after 2 years w/ basically no chance to prove yourself they draft their next PG of the future? You question his dedication where as you should question the organizations dedication and the fan's dedication.


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Doesn't it mean anything that he hurried his rehabilitation from a career-threatening injury last year in order to come back and play for the worst team in the NBA that didn't have a prayer at making the playoffs? Yeah he's not dedicated to the Bulls at all...
> 
> Wouldn't you be mad if you were drafted highly and told that you were the PG of the future...then after 2 years w/ basically no chance to prove yourself they draft their next PG of the future? You question his dedication where as you should question the organizations dedication and the fan's dedication.


Please....you think the he didn't know the bulls were taking a hard look at williams during the season last year? Of course he know. Jcraw came back for one reason, and one reason alone: Jcraw. I really wish people would stop acting like he was doing the bulls this huge favor by coming back early, because in reality, he had something to PROVE to himself and Bulls Execs. I swear some of yall act like he pulled Krause aside and said "I'm gonna come back early just for you". Yeah, he proved he is medically resilient, but as far as I am concerned the bulls don't OWE him anything, other than the MILLIONS he is already getting and the PRIVILEDGE of playing for an NBA team. The last thing they OWE him is the starting job, especially since he really didn't come back as a huge favor to Jerry Krause. He should have to earn it all over again, just as Jwill will have to.


----------



## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>k^2</b>!
> Doesn't it mean anything that he hurried his rehabilitation from a career-threatening injury last year in order to come back and play for the worst team in the NBA that didn't have a prayer at making the playoffs? Yeah he's not dedicated to the Bulls at all...
> 
> Wouldn't you be mad if you were drafted highly and told that you were the PG of the future...then after 2 years w/ basically no chance to prove yourself they draft their next PG of the future? You question his dedication where as you should question the organizations dedication and the fan's dedication.


Who's fault was it that he was injured? Krause's? No, it doesnt mean anything that he hurried his rehab. I sure would be hurrying myself back as soon as possible too since it was my stupid fault I was playing pickup games with MJ to become injured in the first place.

Loyalty to JC? Thats not what building championship teams is all about. Its about having the right players to win. Loyalty while admirable works both ways. Did Crawford do what Krause wanted him to do? Did he stay in Chicago to bond with his teammates? Has he spent time bonding with JW?

Professional sports is a business. There is no room for letting petty ego's stand in the way. Its all about who performs the best for the team. If you have the 2nd pick in the draft you draft the best player available regardless of position. So its Krause's fault he drafted JW? I suppose he should have drafted some lesser player so as not to hurt poor JC's feelings.

Also, while we are speaking logically, Crawford was the #8 player taken in a very weak draft. Some players in that draft still havent developed into decent players. Sometimes you cant wait for a player to develop and while they still have value trade them for something of value that you do need more. This will be Crawford's third year. Its time for him to do more than play well in pickup games, practice, and rehab. Practice and pickup games dont win NBA championships, playing as a team is what wins championships.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>k^2</b>!
> Doesn't it mean anything that he hurried his rehabilitation from a career-threatening injury last year in order to come back and play for the worst team in the NBA that didn't have a prayer at making the playoffs? Yeah he's not dedicated to the Bulls at all...
> 
> Wouldn't you be mad if you were drafted highly and told that you were the PG of the future...then after 2 years w/ basically no chance to prove yourself they draft their next PG of the future? You question his dedication where as you should question the organizations dedication and the fan's dedication.


Bingo.

Crawford was a lottery pick. His performance after coming back early from injury was outstanding. What a terriffic problem it is to have both him and JWill to contend for minutes.

Krause certainly made the right draft pick in JWill. How can anyone NOT take him at #2? But in the process, he's made yet another mess that could put the team in a hole for years to come. I'm talking about how the players view this organization as one to want to play for.


----------



## Johnjo (Jun 4, 2002)

ok i know i havent posted here in a while and i know this what im about to say might seem a little stupid, but bear with me.

who here wouldnt be a litted PO'd to be benched now after being raved about as being the PG of the bulls future for two whole years while also battling back from a grueling knee injury, and then being said taht if the bulls can somehow get a hold of JWill, they can play side by side at the two guard positions, to have them go out and sign donyell marshall and shift the position line down and bump the so called PG of the future to the bench?

that being said, i cant recall anything about crawford *****ing about his role. when talking about the JWill draft he seemed ecstatic about playing with him.


----------



## Kullervo (Sep 12, 2002)

Bottom line: Crawford's got a combination of NBA size (he's thin, but there've been thinner), talent, youth, pro experience and untapped potential that's unique on this team. That makes him intriguing and potentially great, but it also makes him the perfect scapegoat. Fizer's not all great shakes, but he's undersized. Rose is new to this team and JWill is newer to the league. Chandler and Curry can't even vote. On and on.... But Crawford's been here long enough to show us something, and for a variety of reasons he hasn't shown us all he can.

It's a shame the guy got hurt, and it's a shame he reinjured himself while working on his game (then again, would you prefer that he'd done it by tripping over his dog, like Bryan Robinson?). But to slam him for trying to come back too soon--especially when he's got Michael's second-year ankle injury as a looming example--is way too harsh. Giving up on him at this point is even worse, ethically and competitively. And putting words in the guy's mouth is beyond the Pale. Mostly because it's so convenient.


----------



## ChiTown4Life (Sep 28, 2002)

I don't think we are putting words in his mouth.... we are just observing his actions. Like I said before, actions speak louder than words.


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kullervo</b>!
> Chandler and Curry can't even vote.


The 26th Amendment says otherwise, and I for one will be bitterly disappointed if Eddy and Tyson decide not to exercise said privilege.


----------



## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiTown4Life</b>!
> I don't think we are putting words in his mouth.... we are just observing his actions. Like I said before, actions speak louder than words.


I agree. :yes:


----------



## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

Obviously there are many fans on both sides of the issue whether Crawford should start. Unfortunately all this interest has very little to do with who may be the best man for the job, Jay or Jamal. Everything seems to be focused on Crawford's emotional reaction to the situation. Take, for example, an exerpt from today's Sun-Times:

*Cartwright did not anoint Jamal Crawford as the starting point guard. Crawford, who finished last season in the lineup, is under the impression he's still the starter unless someone beats him out.

"I was the starter last season, and I don't plan on taking a step back,'' Crawford said.

If he comes off the bench tonight, his reaction will be noteworthy.*

What's the old saying about "where there's smoke..."? Why are people more concerned about Crawford's reaction than who's the better PG? The fact is that throughout the summer Crawford made it clear that he resents the presence of Williams on the Bulls roster. Instead of accepting William's draft selection as a challenge he chose to avoid the Berto Center and his own teamates. Other than participate in pickup games wherever he could find them, Jamal didn't do what he needed to to prepare for the season. 

"We wanted Jamal here,'' coach Bill Cartwright said. "The big thing for Jamal this summer was to get down here and work out and get stronger.'' The fact is, he didn't get any stronger which is why he's no longer a candidate for the SG position. Despite his height Crawford doesn't have the physical strength to defend PG's like Jason Kidd, Andre Miller and Mark Jackson, who regularly posted him up in the past. And he certainly doesn't have the strength to prevent most SG's from taking him to the hole.

Make no mistake about it, Krause is very displeased with the way Crawford conducted himself this summer. "Jamal chose to do what he chose to do,'' operations chief Jerry Krause said. "No one else has chosen to do that. So we'll have to see if it works for him. If it works for him, fine. Nothing I can do about it. He has the right.'' And Cartwright feels similarly: "Jamal has a lot of talent and lot of potential, and he made a decision to stay in Seattle and work out,'' Cartwright said. "That was not my choice for him."

And here's another dose of reality for the third year guard from his head coach as reported in today's Herald:

*If it's a defensive effort Cartwright wants, there is an obvious question as the Bulls open the preseason tonight against Boston in Uncasville, Conn.: Do they even have a strong defensive lineup?

Cartwright only had two nominations after Wednesday's practice at the Berto Center.

"Is Trenton (Hassell) a defender? Yeah," he said. "Is Jalen (Rose)? When he wants to be.

"Is Jamal (Crawford)? Is Jay (Williams) right now? No. That's where our question marks are. We've got to get better on that end."*

I doubt that many folks in the Bulls organization are going to cut Crawford much slack this season. Seems like he's rubbed a few important people the wrong way. And afterall, he's now a third year player who has yet to provide much of a return on the Bulls investment in him. It's put up or shut up time for Crawford. He'd better learn how to deal with it.


----------



## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

Gee, Go figure. Way to go Crawford.

We need to cut our loses with him NOW. Jerry, if you do one thing for me all season, trade him and attempt to get some value out of him before he runs his trade value smack dab into the ground.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

dickie JC is under the impression that he is the starter until someone beats him out because thats what Krause told him and i'm positive Krause said it in print 

now maybe thats changed but if your boss tells you , you are the starter whats your reaction going to be when someone(meaning a reporter) asks you if you are the starter 

way too much is made out of it though because as donyell marshall said a week or so ago its not who starts the game its who finishes it that truly matters


----------



## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> Obviously there are many fans on both sides of the issue whether Crawford should start. Unfortunately all this interest has very little to do with who may be the best man for the job, Jay or Jamal. Everything seems to be focused on Crawford's emotional reaction to the situation. Take, for example, an exerpt from today's Sun-Times:
> 
> *Cartwright did not anoint Jamal Crawford as the starting point guard. Crawford, who finished last season in the lineup, is under the impression he's still the starter unless someone beats him out.
> ...


Fantastic post. I agree.


----------



## Kullervo (Sep 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> The 26th Amendment says otherwise, and I for one will be bitterly disappointed if Eddy and Tyson decide not to exercise said privilege.


You got me, Scott; I had the liminal 21 in mind and chose the wrong example. Just goes to show where civic engagement and lawful alcohol consumption rank in my list of priorities....


----------



## Kullervo (Sep 12, 2002)

> It's put up or shut up time for Crawford. He'd better learn how to deal with it.


Exactly. I'm no happier than anyone else with some of JC's decisions, but for my money the practical result of his offseason approach is to seriously increase his own responsibility to prove himself on the court. If he does, he's a slightly eccentric star-in-the-making; if he doesn't, he's on the road to Bustville.

I've been fighting my own temptation to draw a season's worth of conclusions from the way JC's handled his rehab and offseason, but that's premature, IMO. Once the season starts, though, I'm with you all in needing him to show us why we drafted him in the first place.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Cartwright's pretty to the point, isn't he?


----------



## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Cartwright's pretty to the point, isn't he?


That is why I think he is perfect for the job. If someone came in and babied these guys, we'd never see a winner around here again.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> dickie JC is under the impression that he is the starter until someone beats him out because thats what Krause told him and i'm positive Krause said it in print
> 
> now maybe thats changed but if your boss tells you , you are the starter whats your reaction going to be when someone(meaning a reporter) asks you if you are the starter


Agree 100%. Krause told Crawford, Crawford's agent and the media that Crawford was the starter until he was beat out.

Of course Krause also talked about JWill and Craw could play together. Oopps!

As a Bull, Jordan had his own trainer and work out plans. So did Artest. Fine for MJ. Maybe not for Ron whom got shipped out of town. If I'm a young bull and want to stick around, I follow Fat Jerry's plan unless I am sure that I am indispensable.

I can't wait until tonight and we can actually get game reports to compare the two as opposed to deciphering off-season and training camp quotes. 

:rbanana:


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> I can't wait until tonight and we can actually get game reports to compare the two as opposed to deciphering off-season and training camp quotes.
> ...


AMEN!!


----------



## ChiTown4Life (Sep 28, 2002)

Well, there you have it... again. Crawford is acting up once again, and disrupting team chemistry. We really dont need this. Kicked out of practice? C'mon man.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*disrupting team chemistry*

i want someone to put out a list of things that crawford has actually done that makes him the j.r. rider of the bulls 

because the stuff being made out of this is pretty silly


----------



## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

While I am not a Crawford supporter and am taking a wait and see for him to "Wow me", I still want him to succeed. I think its way too early to consider trading Crawford. I believe that blowup was severely blown out of proportion.

Now for those of you who want to trade Crawford, beware here of the fact that almost all teams are over the cap. Player trades between teams over the cap can and do happen, but trading a 2 Mill player only gets you a 2 Mill player back.

The best scenario I see happening is Crawford playing out this season with the Bulls and being traded on draft day. From what I can see I doubt Crawford is traded before then. Krause is looking for value and wont give Crawford away, besides Crawford has to establish a greater value by playing well.


----------



## ChiTown4Life (Sep 28, 2002)

So, now his agent is flying to boston.... what's the deal with that?


----------



## Peter Vescey (Oct 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Can someone post a quote of Jamal complaining about being the backup? Can anyone post a quote of Bill Cartwright saying that J-Will is already the starter?


You've been pretty consistent with the quote KC, however you need look no further than his agents communication with Krause about losing the starting gig. Check today's Chicago papers online if you'd like. As for JC's response? Here you go....


http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/bulls_story.asp?intID=3756055 

_"We spoke on the phone," Krause said of Goodwin. "We talked about several non-basketball issues. I told him if he had a problem with Jamal's playing time, go to Bill, not me. I'm not the guy who decides that.

"I don't know what his motives are. That's his business. And my business is I don't have meetings with agents about playing time. I don't have meetings about starting and not starting and all that. That isn't my job, and neither is it Bill (Cartwright's). Bill decides who plays and that's the final statement."

*For his part, Crawford said he gave his agent no instructions about contacting Bulls management and wanted to stay out of the discussion.*_


I think he says it all....I'll let my agent do my whining! 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...ssey,0,3613981.column?coll=cs-bulls-headlines 


_Williams played 33 minutes Wednesday, Crawford 15. That's another way of saying uh-oh.

"The minutes would be hard to handle, but since we're winning, it shouldn't be too much of a problem," Crawford said afterward.

This was in the afterglow of Wednesday's victory, and by my count, there are 81 games left. What if the Bulls start losing?

"Then the minutes would be kind of hard," Crawford said.


The only way this uneasy situation works is if Crawford makes it work, and so far, there are only faint indications he has any other ideas besides starting or being traded. It wasn't a particularly good sign that Tuesday, the day before the season opener, Crawford's agent flew to Boston to meet with Bulls general manager Jerry Krause. It's not what would be called getting off to a good start._


----------



## Peter Vescey (Oct 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> I agree with KC. There's no real evidence that Crawford is complaining about starting behind Jay... it's just assumed that we'd put that kind of humanistic relation onto him.


Respectfully disagree Showtyme. This is attributed to Crawford directly or indirectly through his agent... He's responsible for it and it amounts to complaining to me.

"We spoke on the phone," Krause said of Goodwin. "We talked about several non-basketball issues. I told him if he had a problem with Jamal's playing time, go to Bill, not me. I'm not the guy who decides that.

"I don't know what his motives are. That's his business. And my business is I don't have meetings with agents about playing time. I don't have meetings about starting and not starting and all that. That isn't my job, and neither is it Bill (Cartwright's). Bill decides who plays and that's the final statement."

For his part, Crawford said he gave his agent no instructions about contacting Bulls management and wanted to stay out of the discussion.

============

Williams played 33 minutes Wednesday, Crawford 15. That's another way of saying uh-oh.

"The minutes would be hard to handle, but since we're winning, it shouldn't be too much of a problem," Crawford said afterward.

This was in the afterglow of Wednesday's victory, and by my count, there are 81 games left. What if the Bulls start losing?

"Then the minutes would be kind of hard," Crawford said.

=============

I guess he just assumes JWill will suck if the Bulls are losing and he should be playing, eh? 



*ONE THING NOBODY CAN POINT TO IS WHERE CRAWFORD HAS PROVED HE IS A LEADER AT ANY LEVEL OF BASKETBALL or I have missed it. *


----------



## Peter Vescey (Oct 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> Crawford had a legitimate gripe IMO. He was touted as the Bulls "pg of the future" when he was drafted. One restrcicted rookie season and one ACL injury and all of the sudden everyone and their brother can't wait to trade him. All he has to do to get discouraged is to take a look at this board. I mean, I have seen some WHACK trade scenarios posted involving Crawford. This kid has MUCH game. He was just beginning to show it at the end of last season after rehabbing from his ACL. Time to trade him! LOL!
> 
> The guy shot over 50% from 3pt land in the games he started, thats pretty damn impressive.
> ...


And all that said, how would you rate both of their performances last night?


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Peter Vescey</b>!
> 
> 
> And all that said, how would you rate both of their performances last night?


Obviously JWill played brilliantly. I never had any doubts that JWill can play at a high level and play well. He does seem more NBA ready than I first expected however. Jamal looked a little nervous, his shot wasn't falling, he got burned by Shammond Williams on one play and coughed the ball up to him on another. Otherwise Jamal played decent although it was certainly not his best game. Still, you never know, if Jamal had started he may have been flirting with a triple double like JWill. He only played 15 minutes off of the bench after all.


----------



## Peter Vescey (Oct 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Obviously JWill played brilliantly. I never had any doubts that JWill can play at a high level and play well. He does seem more NBA ready than I first expected however. Jamal looked a little nervous, his shot wasn't falling, he got burned by Shammond Williams on one play and coughed the ball up to him on another. Otherwise Jamal played decent although it was certainly not his best game. Still, you never know, if Jamal had started he may have been flirting with a triple double like JWill. He only played 15 minutes off of the bench after all.


No arguments there. I actually like JC. I'd prefer to see the two combine to give us a Bibby/Jackson like combo, but I think JC's attitude may be the only thing that stands in the way of that.


----------



## Nobull1 (Oct 6, 2002)

*Who cares*

Jamal is under contract he will get over it  Bulls win and that is all that matters. If we are successful it will only enhance his overall value. Remember Scott Williams.


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Peter Vescey</b>!
> 
> 
> No arguments there. I actually like JC. I'd prefer to see the two combine to give us a Bibby/Jackson like combo, but I think JC's attitude may be the only thing that stands in the way of that.


Yeah, JC's a good player, last night just wasn't his night. Still, I am concerned that Jamal might not be able to get into the flow coming off of the bench, we'll see. As for JC's attitude, I still don't blame him for being upset. Now, if JC had been the starter and JWill came in and clearly outplayed him for a couple of games (like he did last night) then I don't think he would have a major problem with coming off of the bench. His whole thing was he didn't want it "handed" to Jay, which is basically what happened. Still, looks like JWill is ready to prove that it was the right decision and Jamal will really have to play his heart out if he wants to try to take it back.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>! His whole thing was he didn't want it "handed" to Jay, which is basically what happened.


I am somewhat intriged by the Craw supporters.

*Let's play a little what if*

Fact 1: One could not determine the PG starter by the preseason stats.

Assumption 1: BC *felt strongly* that JWill was much more likely to give him what he was looking for in a PG as compared to Craw. From game 1.

Asummption 2: BC felt that the difference between the 2 PGs might be the difference between winning and losing a game.

Assumption 3: BC feels that JWill is his PG of the future.

Question: If these 3 assumptions are true, should BC still have started Craw until it was crystal clear to everyone else that JWill is more ready to play?


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

I don't claim to be an NBA scout, but it's really not clear to me that Craw is a PG. It seems that the kid has a very hard time bringing the ball up the court when he is under pressure. It seems that he prefers to pass the ball upcourt. 

I do like his skills when he has the ball at the top of the key. He typically can shake his man to gain space for his shot and will utilmetely be able to penetrate and create for other. But most high quality NBA 2 guards have this skill. See Jalen Rose.

Perhaps he could be a triangle PG with work. But a traditional one? Am I missing something?


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

Craw did have one really nice play that I remember.
he drove the lane , broke down the 'd', and dished
to Donyell for 2.

Last night was just one game....so everyone needs to chill.

Next up is New orleans, with a small back court. I hope
this will allow BC to do what he said he wasn't inclined
to do, and that's play JC and JW a few minutes together.


----------



## Peter Vescey (Oct 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>
> Last night was just one game....so everyone needs to chill.


Agreed. Both will be up and down.


----------



## WshflThinking (Sep 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiTown4Life</b>!
> So, now his agent is flying to boston.... what's the deal with that?


His agent wants him to be the starter. Crawford should stop whining and play. The better player played the most minutes last night when the Bulls beat the Celtics. Thats the bottom line.


----------



## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> I don't claim to be an NBA scout, but it's really not clear to me that Craw is a PG. It seems that the kid has a very hard time bringing the ball up the court when he is under pressure. It seems that he prefers to pass the ball upcourt.
> 
> I do like his skills when he has the ball at the top of the key. He typically can shake his man to gain space for his shot and will utilmetely be able to penetrate and create for other. But most high quality NBA 2 guards have this skill. See Jalen Rose.
> ...


johnston, 
You don't give yourself enough credit. You have hit the nail right on the head. NBA scouts view Crawford as a two guard, not a point guard. You'll never hear anyone in the Bulls organization admit it, but its true. With the shortage of quality one guards in the league you'd think a 6'6" PG would fetch something pretty nice on the trade market. And make no mistake about it, Jamal was shopped heavily. Regardless of what the Bulls brass says in the media, the last thing they wanted was an unhappy Crawford creating disharmony in the locker room.

But as we all know, SG's are a dime a dozen. That doesn't make Jamal a very highly sought after commodity. As a combo guard with _some_ point guard skills, Crawford does have value to the Bulls as Williams' backup. As a shooting guard he's very limited. Who's he going to guard? Most of the two's in the league will beat him up.

Now you know why Cartwright said he won't pair Williams and Crawford together. Crawford didn't do the work this summer to build up enough strength to play the SG position. So now Crawford's relegated to second string point guard status and that's it. And it's his own fault. If he'd spent the summer at Berto and followed the strength program the Bulls had laid out for him he might have added enough muscle to get some time at the two.

So don't feel sorry for Crawford. He made his own bed and now he's stuck behind a rookie of the year candidate. Someday he might grow up and realize he can't always have it his own way. 'Til then that cloud over his head will keep following him wherever he goes.


----------



## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*Hey, I can tell you what ONE of his problems are....*



> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Ok, that is your opinion, but this thread was started by saying "What is Crawford's problem." I don't understand what his problem is *right now*.


He SUCKS! you want another? He is HORRIBLE!!!....one more...HE WOULD LOOK BETTER WITH A SKIRT ON standing midcourt during halftime!!! Just kidding! Not about the first two problems he has....he is not very good kC...really. He cannot attack a defense while on offense with the ball unless he is backing up towards the basket....hard to see all his teamates and where they are on the court BACKING up...I want us to trade him AND Fizer for jason richardson and troy murphy....!! THATS WHAT I WANT!!! :topic:


----------



## k^2 (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Hey, I can tell you what ONE of his problems are....*



> Originally posted by <b>BamaBull</b>!
> 
> 
> He SUCKS! you want another? He is HORRIBLE!!!....one more...HE WOULD LOOK BETTER WITH A SKIRT ON standing midcourt during halftime!!! Just kidding! Not about the first two problems he has....he is not very good kC...really. He cannot attack a defense while on offense with the ball unless he is backing up towards the basket....hard to see all his teamates and where they are on the court BACKING up...I want us to trade him AND Fizer for jason richardson and troy murphy....!! THATS WHAT I WANT!!! :topic:


Damn, do you have some personal vendetta against the guy? Why do you have to hate him so much. You say he's so terrible, and what's this based on, one game? IMO, from reading the boxes which probally isn't the best place to form an opinion, he played pretty well in the preseason and at the end of last season. The guy has some issues, that's obvious, but did you ever read about the kids childhood. Not all kids are raised in one home w/ two parents nowadays. He's played organized basketball for what 5 years? I keep reading that he hasn't shown leadership anywhere but watching his games at Michigan, all of them, he was clearly the heart and soul of that team and any fan of the maize and blue would sell their left nut for him to come back. And by the way if you think that the warriors would trade Richardson and Murphy for Craw and Pfizer then put the crack pipe down...i hope you were being sarcastic there.


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Bama, you will never get that trade!!


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

truebluefan.....when I first read it, I didn't even know how to reply.


----------

