# Trade Possibility



## Obi-Wan Nowitzki (Jun 2, 2003)

I was working on a trade possibility between the Hawks and the Mavericks on the Real GM trade checker. Since Ratliff and Reef are going to leave next year, the Hawks would probably want something for them.

Hawks recieve:
Antawn Jamison
Chris Mills
Tariq Abdul-Wuhad

They would get a guy that they can build around with Terry, some salary relief (they traded for TB's contract), and Wuhad is a filler.

Mavericks recieve:
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Theo Ratliff

We get DEFENSE not to mention that I believe that Reef is a better player all around that Jamison.

I was thinking that maybe they could work this trade near the deadline.

This trade requires a few things:
1. Reef has to show that he's over his injury by that time.
2. The Hawks have to have practically NO chance of making the playoffs
3. Chris Mills has to be validated injured by an NBA doctor to have the cap relief.

Tell me what you think.


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## Charlotte_______ (May 18, 2003)

Would the Mavs really do this considering Jamison hasn't played a single game for him? Or has he?


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## Tristan (Jan 13, 2003)

WE WONT TRADE JAMISON


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## Stinger (Jun 10, 2003)

I like this trade cap and salary and talent wise. But would Shareef and Theo be able to run with the Mavs? Will the Mavs have enough to sign Nash after this trade?


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tristan</b>!
> WE WONT TRADE JAMISON


Alteast not before we see how he does in the regular season...


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## Obi-Wan Nowitzki (Jun 2, 2003)

This is only a suggestion. It assumes that Jamison isn't "The Answer" in Dallas. This assumes that Jamison's defense isn't what we need to win a championship.

To answer your question about Reef and Ratliff running with the Mavs, Reef is just as agile as Jamison and Ratliff is 8000 times more agile than Bradley. Ratliff isn't a Mutumbo type of a player. He has to be quick to play center.

This would give us the legitimate center that I believe we need in order to get past the Western Conference Finals.


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## INTELLECT (Nov 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Stinger</b>!
> I like this trade cap and salary and talent wise. But would Shareef and Theo be able to run with the Mavs? Will the Mavs have enough to sign Nash after this trade?


nash has his larry bird rights so they can sign him to whatever deal they choose to


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## Obi-Wan Nowitzki (Jun 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>INTELLECT</b>!
> 
> 
> nash has his larry bird rights so they can sign him to whatever deal they choose to


Yeah, I meant to say that, but I forgot.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*nice but.....*

I like the trade, but I doubt this will happen unless Jamison plays like absolute garbage. They traded for Jamison this year, and this probably wouldn't happen until next offseason, depending mostly On Jamison's play this year. (Bottomline: He's staying this year.) 

The Hawks would love to get anything for Reef and Ratliff, because they are gone next year. Ratliff is just what the doctor ordered for the Mavs if he can stay healthy, and Reef is better than Jamison. We won't miss Mills or Wahad.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

I am sure Nelly and cuban would jump on this in a heartbeat.

Forget this fan favorite CRAP, do you have any idea the kind of lineups they could run??

Not only could they go small and quick ( like before )

Now they could go Finely 1 Dirk 2 Raef 3 SAR OR Theo 4 and Bradley 5 or hell make your own lineup! Go on get silly with it!

Theo the fast shot blocking center is just what this team needs.

Raef logging time at PF is just what this team needs. SAR can score in the post so can toine, but Ratliff is the real key here.

BTW I am sick of reading about Tawns defense. People please!!! 
He is a career 1.0 SPG 0.4 BPG player!!! Why do you think GS was so upset over his contract? This guy contributes nothing on the defensive end, you think Diggler is bad WAIT til you see this guy.


I don't think atlanta does this, maybe if dallas threw in some draft picks! Man if they did this I'd say they were very strong favorites to win a title, and it would only be a matter of time, not personnel.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> I am sure Nelly and cuban would jump on this in a heartbeat.
> 
> Forget this fan favorite CRAP, do you have any idea the kind of lineups they could run??
> ...


Many people have said that SAR isn't a star, just a guy to get you 20 and 10 everynight. Which, IMO, would be great having some guys like that play with Dirk, Nash, and Fin. There wouldn't be any pressure for him to carry the team at all. But all this is speculation, I figure that Jamison could shine being a Mav and having plenty of talent around him for once.


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## mavsman (Jun 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> BTW I am sick of reading about Tawns defense. People please!!!
> He is a career 1.0 SPG 0.4 BPG player!!! Why do you think GS was so upset over his contract? This guy contributes nothing on the defensive end, you think Diggler is bad WAIT til you see this guy.


These are the statistics you sight to prove that Jamison is a
poor defender. Steal and blocks per game? Rashard Lewis has
practically the same stats in those categories. In fact Reef has
about those same numbers. Defense is about desire and if
Jamison wants to concentrate on defense then he certainly has
the physical ability to do it. 

I would like to see Jamison play alittle for the Mavs before I declare that he is a
terrible defender. He has addressed this and said that defense
was not his main focus in GS. But he believes that he is a good
defender and will prove it this year. I would like to give him the
benefit of the doubt.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mavsman</b>!
> 
> 
> These are the statistics you sight to prove that Jamison is a
> poor defender. Steal and blocks per game?


I don't need to prove anything ask anyone who is a fan of GS or who knows anything about him.
As for statistics what should I have used AST? Please humor me and tell me the statistics you use.



> Rashard Lewis has
> practically the same stats in those categories.


Rashard averages over a steal per game not one. It is a big difference, since Jamison has had only one year where he averaged over 1spg and rashard has had 3. Where did you get in your mind that Rashard lewis was an elite defender of the SF category?



> In fact Reef has
> about those same numbers.




Reef averages over a steal and for the majority of career over a block. This is better than averaging under the consistently, and besides where did you here that SAR was consisdered anythimg more than an average defender at best?
Did you miss the part about Theo Ratliff?



> Defense is about desire and if
> Jamison wants to concentrate on defense then he certainly has
> the physical ability to do it.


No, see the Yao ming lebron thread in the NBA forum if you need a defintion of defense, believe me you do.



> I would like to see Jamison play alittle for the Mavs before I declare that he is a
> terrible defender. He has addressed this and said that defense
> was not his main focus in GS. But he believes that he is a good
> defender and will prove it this year. I would like to give him the
> benefit of the doubt.


I am sure lots of people would but this line up makes dallas deeper and stronger, there is no way they wouldn't do it. You might want to see Tawn play, I'd rather see this team but the best lineup together and win it all.


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## mavsman (Jun 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't need to prove anything ask anyone who is a fan of GS or who knows anything about him


I could not give a flying leap about bitter GS fans. As I stated
before defense was not Jamison's focus. His focus was on the offensive
end of the court and not on defense when he played for GS.



> Originally
> As for statistics what should I have used AST? Please humor me and tell me the statistics you use.


These statistics don't tell the whole story of whether a player is a good/bad defender. Those stats don't show whether a guy
can spot up on a guy and not let him get to the basket. Or can
force him into a bad shot or pass. Or can play good help defense
or can close out on a guy so that the shooter at least has a
hand in his face.



> Rashard averages over a steal per game not one. It is a big difference, since Jamison has had only one year where he averaged over 1spg and rashard has had 3. Where did you get in your mind that Rashard lewis was an elite defender of the SF category?


You did not do that well in math did you? First of all Lewis
averages .11 more steals per game. That means the every
10 games he has ONE more steal than Jamison. If that a
BIG difference as you state than there is no more need for
discussion because you have lost all rational thought.

And I never said Lewis was a great defender. He is just an average one.
You are the one who declared that Jamison is a terrible defender.
I just believe that Jamison may be an OK defender when he
concentrates on it.



> No, see the Yao ming lebron thread in the NBA forum if you need a defintion of defense, believe me you do.


Don't need to and don't want to. I know what good defense is
and I know what bad defense it. I also played enough and have
seen enough basketball to know that unless you lack physical
skills to do it, defense is most about desire and intensity.

All I have stated is that Jamison certainly has the physical skills
and he has stated that he has the desire. So I believe that he
can become a decent defender if he really wants to. Whether or
not he chose to make that a priority in GS is of no significance to
me. It only matters that he wishes to improve that part of his
game in Dallas.


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## OG (Aug 12, 2003)

that's a no brainer for dallas.. their time is now, they've wanted a center for so long.. they get ratliff.. SAR can play as well as jamison, but i think he might fit in even better.. the question is would dallas take the risk at losing both those players at the end of the season.. i doubt it..
as for the hawks, who knows, they'd probably do it, they're building - not trying to win..


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>OG</b>!
> that's a no brainer for dallas.. their time is now, they've wanted a center for so long.. they get ratliff.. SAR can play as well as jamison, but i think he might fit in even better.. the question is would dallas take the risk at losing both those players at the end of the season.. i doubt it..
> as for the hawks, who knows, they'd probably do it, they're building - not trying to win..


I don't Theo could hold up for a whole season playing in the west being an undersized C. SAR has more RPG than Jamiosn, if I'm not mistaken, and plays the at the 4 more than the 3. So he would be a good fit. But I wouldn't call Theo our "Answer" but just some added help.


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## OG (Aug 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>stevemc</b>!
> 
> I don't Theo could hold up for a whole season playing in the west being an undersized C. SAR has more RPG than Jamiosn, if I'm not mistaken, and plays the at the 4 more than the 3. So he would be a good fit. But I wouldn't call Theo our "Answer" but just some added help.


i wouldnt' call theo the answer either, definately some help.. a big upgrade from raef (nothing against him as a player, but he's not a center).. 

this would be a great trade for dallas if they guys had at least another year on their deals.. 


& steve, the first post of yours i ever read, i hated what you had to say, since then it's been all great.. keep up the great posting.


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## Obi-Wan Nowitzki (Jun 2, 2003)

Couldn't you see this trade going through though? With Ratliff, it's not all about him guarding Shaq or Duncan... Wingmen will settle for jumpers SOOOOOO much more than driving the ball if the see Theo in the lane instead of Raef, Bradley, Dirk, or whoever else would be playing center.

As for Ratliff holding up, you don't use him so much at center in the regular season. You can use him against the East teams and practacly all of the West teams. The Lakers (Shaq) and Spurs (Duncan) are the only two teams that I see in the ENTIRE NBA with guys that Ratliff can't handle straight up.

The Hawks would jump on this trade in a heartbeat. EVERYONE knows that Reef and Ratliff are both out the door when it comes to Atlanta next year. The Hawks WILL have a losing record and they will be lucky to get anyone close to the talent of Jamison in a sign-and-trade over next offseason. So, why not just deal Ratliff and Reef before their contracts expire?

These two guys would bring better rebounding and defense for sure without screwing up any of the scoring. Nash, Finley, and Dirk will still have their outside/midrange shots, but now they'd have a solid back to the basket guy (Reef) and a shotblocker/average low post scorer (Ratliff)...

Think about it.

C-Ratliff
PF-Reef
SF-Dirk
SG-Finley
PG-Nash

If you don't like starting Ratliff against the Lakers and Spurs, then why not put in Raef and Bradley? Those are the guys that'll start at center if you don't pull the trigger on this deal anyways.


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## OG (Aug 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MavsFaN02</b>!
> Couldn't you see this trade going through though? With Ratliff, it's not all about him guarding Shaq or Duncan... Wingmen will settle for jumpers SOOOOOO much more than driving the ball if the see Theo in the lane instead of Raef, Bradley, Dirk, or whoever else would be playing center.
> 
> As for Ratliff holding up, you don't use him so much at center in the regular season. You can use him against the East teams and practacly all of the West teams. The Lakers (Shaq) and Spurs (Duncan) are the only two teams that I see in the ENTIRE NBA with guys that Ratliff can't handle straight up.
> ...



i think we all agree with you on that, BUT it's a risk for the mavs. 
consider this, neither ratliff or SAR mess well with the team, put up poor numbers and don't resign at the end of the season.. dallas just gave up NVE for nothing - jamison's gone.. they're back to where they were (with a MUCH better dirk) 2 years ago.. 
it'd be great to see this trade work out for both teams.. i'd love to see a match up with the timberwolves after that trade has gone through.


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## Obi-Wan Nowitzki (Jun 2, 2003)

Are you able to offer contract extensions during the season? If you are, then why can't that be a clause in the trade?


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## OG (Aug 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MavsFaN02</b>!
> Are you able to offer contract extensions during the season? If you are, then why can't that be a clause in the trade?


i don't know if either are eligable for extensions, but extentions must be done by the end of october.. right before the season starts..


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

This is a very good trade for Dallas Rahim is better than Jaminson and Ratliff would finally give them a defensive presence inside this is ahorrible trade for the Hawks there worse at D after and doesn't help that much on offense.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>OG</b>!
> & steve, the first post of yours i ever read, i hated what you had to say, since then it's been all great.. keep up the great posting.


Which post would that be? :uhoh:


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## Obi-Wan Nowitzki (Jun 2, 2003)

Starbury,

Reef and Ratliff are gone after this season... It's the last year of their contracts and I am hearing that both are unhappy. Would they rather have nothing or get Jamison in the deal?


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

Don't you want to build a championship team not let your players leave than can't get a free agent lok at San Antonio there champs and couldn't get anyone and you guys couldn't get Zo or MAlone this year so you need to kepp players and stop worrying about money.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>stevemc</b>!
> 
> 
> Many people have said that SAR isn't a star, just a guy to get you 20 and 10 everynight. Which, IMO, would be great having some guys like that play with Dirk, Nash, and Fin. There wouldn't be any pressure for him to carry the team at all. But all this is speculation, I figure that Jamison could shine being a Mav and having plenty of talent around him for once.


20-10 plus 10-10-3 for 20-10, an Ok post guy, and a bench warmer is a gimme, stars or no stars...


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## OG (Aug 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>stevemc</b>!
> 
> 
> Which post would that be? :uhoh:


i don't even remember, i got over it.. hehe


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mavsman</b>!
> 
> 
> I could not give a flying leap about bitter GS fans. As I stated
> ...


Then it's no wonder you foolishly leapt into an argument where it's readily apparent you have no clue what you are talking about.

There are more than just bitter fans from gold state, you'd have to have your head jammed up your butt to think that. 

Golden State was one of the league leaders in points allowed. Antwan Jamison had a huge contract, yet for all his scoring ability 
couldn't defend, defense was a huge priorty for golden state even before Mussleman was there. 

Jamison just couldn't deliver which is one of the reasons they really wanted to get rid of him.
To make it real easy on you they didn't want to pay for a player
who was so one dimensional, especially one they deemed their franchise player

Now, that's a pretty simple explanation but, if you still don't understand it, feel free to PM or have your special ed teacher explain it to you. 



> These statistics don't tell the whole story of whether a player is a good/bad defender. Those stats don't show whether a guy
> can spot up on a guy and not let him get to the basket. Or can
> force him into a bad shot or pass. Or can play good help defense
> or can close out on a guy so that the shooter at least has a
> hand in his face.


All the blabbing you did about how to play defense, equates into one thing, defensive plays. Seriously your inability to even piece together your own logic is frightening, do you understand that people who know how to do all of things you're spouting off about...... KNOW HOW TO PLAY GOOD DEFENSE??? and that they will get .... MORE STEALS AND BLOCKS THEN THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THE LEAGUE.

Seriuosly why contradict your own logic. You should at least wait for me to do that.




> You did not do that well in math did you? First of all Lewis
> averages .11 more steals per game. That means the every
> 10 games he has ONE more steal than Jamison. If that a
> BIG difference as you state than there is no more need for
> discussion because you have lost all rational thought.


How could you even try and rate my mathematical ability? God what a stupid thing for you to do. Why would you question my knowledge on something then prove your lack thereof a few sentences later. Are you that uneducated or just really young?

In terms of academics, I already I know I am vastly superior to you, but I'll leave that for PM's, It seems readily apparent that you know how to do basic arthematic, but don't know how to understand statistics. That's fine most highschoolers don't.

Higher averages or "means" equivocate to more consistency and productivity,

Why am I trying to explain it to you, and I don't know why because it's obvious you can't even keep a continual stream of logic in your own posts,( you're a lost cause). 

Forget it I had a formula here to help you out, but I am postive you can't do anything besides basic algebra at best. You've never seen a jacobian in your life, you probably think it's a food.

So, lets do this in 2002 Jamison Stole the ball a total of 76 (.93) times
Rashard 99 (1.29)

Jamison Blocked the ball 45 times, yet Rashard did 35. 
Yet somehow Rashard and Tawns block averages were the same!

How could this be if Tawn had more blocks than Rashard? I can just see the smoke coming out of your head now. 

Well that seems weird doesn't it . The reason why your " formula" proves only how little you know about math, and basketball in general, and is not a good counter point to mine, lies in the above discrepancy. Have someone help you out with this. I know you haven't taken any mathematics beyond highschool. I am however giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you graduated highschool. I am sure you will prove me wrong later.





> And I never said Lewis was a great defender. He is just an average one.
> You are the one who declared that Jamison is a terrible defender.
> I just believe that Jamison may be an OK defender when he
> concentrates on it.


More brilliance. So if Lewis is an average defender, whose stats and overall performance is greater than Jamisons, and Jamison is a worse defender, then what does that make Jamison, at best it makes him a below average defender. Ask anyone who has seen him play and they will tell you no, he is a bad defender. Refer to the Golden State comment above. Remember they are just bitter, you seem to be one of those people who think they are right just because they yell the loudest.

So your strategy is to keep disregarding the comments of people who are more familiar with a player than you, contradict them for whatever stupid reason, and just hope you're right. Sounds like a plan! A winner is you.




> Don't need to and don't want to. I know what good defense is
> and I know what bad defense it. I also played enough and have
> seen enough basketball to know that unless you lack physical
> skills to do it, defense is most about desire and intensity.


If you knew as much as you think you'd be able to defend your arguments instead of letting me poke holes in your lame attempts at an insult, and rebuttal. You have no idea what equates to being a good defender, either that or you have never seen Jamison play, to back him up so vehemently.



> All I have stated is that Jamison certainly has the physical skills
> and he has stated that he has the desire. So I believe that he
> can become a decent defender if he really wants to. Whether or
> not he chose to make that a priority in GS is of no significance to
> ...


Look kid, 90% of the nba has the physical skills to become an average defender. You should also know that Pro atheletes usually say what they are instructed or precoached on. That's why they all sound the same save for a select few. In GS if he didn't "choose" to make a stance as a good defender, especially after the team made him their franchise player, I got news for you, a change of scenery isn't going to impact his attitude.


I realize your going to get upset, try to defend yourself, then I'll come back here and point out where you're wrong. It's obvious by your post quality rating that people really want to hear you as lessas possible so, if your going to come up with anything less than cogent reasoning please PM it to me.

P.S. Jamison is a terrible defender, and so are you. 

_edited to be less of a personal attack_


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

Why trade a player who you had to trade arguably the 6th man of the year for??? I dont think it makes sense:whoknows:


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## mavsman (Jun 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> P.S. Jamison is a terrible defender, and so are you.
> 
> _edited to be less of a personal attack_


Sorry, I am bored with you. It must be so frustrating to be
a Knicks fan that you have to spend an entire day trying
to come up with an attack on another teams fan.

I stand by all my statements:

Defense is about desire and intensity.

Jamison believes he is and intends to show that he is a good
defender ( Oops sorry thats not me its him )

I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he will
put more effort into becoming a good defender.

Thats what I was saying in a nutshell. If this somehow upsets
you than maybe spending another day coming up with personal
attacks will make you feel better.


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