# Forget Wallace - trade for Webber.



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

1. Webber would be the best big man in the eastern conference. Yes, better than Jermaine O'Neal.

2. Webber is the best passing PF in the game, he changes the game just by being on the court.

3. Webber would be the best player in NY, a good thing, because it sure doesn't look like Marbury is going to lead the Knicks anywhere if he's the team's best player.

4. Webber would actually WANT to play in NYC.

5. Webber is easily better than Rasheed "I hate being the first option in crunch time" Wallace.

Webber is not that much older than Wallace, and is in the middle of a contract (meaning he won't command 6 years like Wallace would). Most importantly, the Knicks could probably dump a contract or two in such a trade. The Kings would probably take either Shandon or Penny in such a trade. I'll lean towards Penny because of his passing.

Would Penny, KT, and Sweetney be enough to get it done? If you want to make this deal even more complex, would Houston, KT, and Sweetney be able to bring in Webber and Christie?

I'm aware the talent doesn't match up, but the Kings don't have unlimited funds, and their trademark bench has gotten thinner every year. Kings fans have been calling for Webber's head of late. Divac is going to retire soon, making a Brad/Webber frontline, but if the Kings have had the last straw, KT is an underrated passer for a big man, and Sweetney is a rebounder that they need who'll be able to take over at PF as KT gets older. And the Kings need some help at SG, they get the least point production there in the NBA. The Knicks needs to dump one SG if they want to keep DJ.

If the Knicks are going to "win-now" they might as well do it right by getting a real superstar, one who actually WILL get the team to win.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Do you not fear him being injury prone and injury diminished? I mean three years ago would be one theing, but he's a lot scarier now.


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

It seems like a decent trade. I wouldn't want to give up Sweetney, but for Webber, I guess I can take that. Problem is that I'm a bit worried about Webber's health and I don't think the Kings would make a trade like that.


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## Peja Vu (Jun 9, 2002)

No thanks.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

the most overrated player in the league? No way. Id rather have Wallace then Chris "unclutch" webber. Whenever the games on the line, expect for him to lose it for you.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

id rather sheed at this point in time. plus who do we give up for webber, allan houston? hell id actually do that if it was offered and try to get sheed anyway, that would be nice!


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

btw if we did that our lineup would look like this i think WITH BOTH MY SUGGESTIONS

c- sheed
pf- webber
sf- tim thomas
sg- dermarr
pg- marbury

and we would be bigman stacked with guys like naz ktom and seweetney on the bench! if wallace can play the shooting guard I DONT THINK SO SO DONT ATTACK ME ON IT the knicks would be real scary with this lineup

c- ktom
pf- webber
sf- tim thomas
sg- sheed
pg- marbury

talk about size at offguard eh


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

im now thinking they might not want houston for webber so we cud add somethin else in tht liek sweetney and work with it, i still think it wud be nice tho to get sheed and webb IM PROLLY JUST DREAMING THOUGH!


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

How are the Knicks supposed to get Sheed AND Webber? Magic? The only way the Knicks get Sheed is if they get him in an S/T for KT. And that's a big maybe. I honestly don't think the Pistons are interested in KT, he already had a run in with Ben Wallace which ended up having Big Ben waiting for him by the team bus, and they alread have his skillset in Mehmet Okur. KT isn't much of a shotblocker or athlete in general (his early career knee injuries saw to that), Mehmet Okur is a better shooter, and Ben is already grabbing most of the rebounds. KT has minimal value on Detroit. 

Sheed actually works well in Detroit because he's a good shot blocker (he can cover Ben's back) and a weak rebounder (negated by Ben). In NY, his rebound weakness would be a little exploited, and he isn't a player who is going to take away the ball from Marbury in the 4th quarter. He sure is getting a lot of praise for someone who is hardly a top 10 PF, something Webber on his worst days still qualifies as.

To further emphasize how good Webber is, he is averaging 18 ppg, 9 rpg, and 5 apg in 35 mpg, and Kings fans are DISAPOINTED. His timing has been off as he is trying to get into form (.417 FG%). While I guess King's fans should be somewhat disappointed since Webber is scoring 5 fewer ppg than he was last year (also 4 below his career average of 22), and his 18.4 ppg is his lowest since his rookie year (17.5) it's worth noting that Sheed's career high is 19.3 ppg, with a career average of 16.0 ppg.

Chris Webber
18.4 ppg
9.0 rpg
4.9 apg
1.4 spg
0.9 bpg
.417 fg%

Rasheed Wallace
16.4 ppg (14.7 with DET)
6.7 rpg (6.8 with DET)
2.3 apg (1.8 with DET)
0.9 spg (1.1 with DET)
1.8 bpg (2.0 with DET)
1.8 to (1.4 with DET)
.437 fg% (.433 with DET)

Going by the numbers, even in a down year Webber has been better than Sheed with his highest market value ever. I say highest market value, because Sheed is starting to remind me of Nick Van Exel this year. Happy when at the top of the conference, and a nuisance when his team is below .600.

In other words, Sheed is happy when the team isn't depending on him. When Portland had the deepest team in the league (Wallace, Steve Smith, Pippen, Stoudamire, Sabonis, Schrempf, Bonzi Wells, Brian Grant, Greg Anthony) Wallace was happy. He was happy because he wasn't always the one taking the shot at the end of games. That's how he is now in Detroit, and that's how he likes it.

Say what you want about Webber's "unclutchness" (he's as unselfish as Kevin Garnett is in the 4th, so I guess KG has the same unclutchness in 4th quarters) but Webber is comfortable being the leader of a team, he can bare the burden of being the head guy, and unlike Wallace, he can actually handle criticism.

There is no question that Webber makes his teammates better. He can take it in the high post and dish it to a cutting Marbury/TT or kick it out to an open Houston/TT on the perimeter. Or he can bounce a pass behind his back to a Nazr/Baker under the basket. Or he can just back down whatever undersized eastern conference player is guarding him.

The question is - does Wallace make his teammates better? There's no question he makes Ben Wallace better, but the Knicks have nobody like that on their team (unless you count Deke who is close to retirement and/or being run out of town). Does he make Marbury better? Does he make Tim Thomas better? Does he make Allan Houston better? Is his highly touted (and noticeably overrated) post game any better than Vin Baker's?

Who is Webber most similar to? Think Kevin Garnett lite (Webber also gets knocked for playoff success, but he's also been past the first round).

Who is Rasheed most similar to? Think Keith Van Horn with better defense.

And please, spare me the injury reports. Webber is only 1 year older than Wallace. 60 games of Webber is better than 75 games of Sheed. Vin Baker is more than a competent place holder if Webber goes down. 

If the Knicks are going to throw away the future, do it right, get a superstar, not a 2 time all-star.

Quick, which team is better?

Webber 6 time all-star, 1 time all-nba 1st, 3 time all-nba 2nd
Marbury 2 time all-star, 2 time all-nba 3rd
Houston 2 time all-star

Marbury 2 time all-star, 2 time all-nba 3rd
Wallace 2 time all-star
Houston 2 time all-star


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I think wallace may be the better fit for the Knicks..Not saying he is better than Webber,but we need some interior Defence...

Do you think isiah protects Deke in the expansion draft??


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

It has also never been firmer in my mind that Stephon Marbury just isn't a main man. He'd sure like to think he is, which is why he ran out on Kevin Garnett all those years ago, but the fact is, Kevin Garnett was the best situation Marbury ever had. He has hardly made ANY of his teammates better since leaving Minnesota, and there's no reason to think that he'll start with Rasheed Wallace. There's a reason this team wins when Marbury shoots great, and loses when he shoots poorly. If he could actually make one of his teammates better, the Knicks might actually have a chance when Marbury isn't on fire. That's been the case on all his other teams too. Except when he was 2nd/3rd fiddle on Minnesota.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

What I find strange is we NEVER get easy buckets..Have you ever seen an alley opp dunk for the Knicks???

Do we ever fast break????

And it doesnt seem to matter who we put in there....

I think Wilkens has to go.....


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Knicks are protecting Marbury, Williams, TT, KT, Sweetney, and Nazr in the expansion, that much is certain.

Hornets won't take Norris' fat contract
Hornets won't take Anderson's fat contract
Hornets can't afford Houston's fat contract
Hornets can't afford Penny's fat contract

Baker and DJ are free agents, thus don't need protection.

That leaves Harrington, Trybanski, and Mutombo with 2 slots left. All three will have expiring contracts that year and thus some trade value. However since the Hornets are being limited by the NBA and have to maintain a low budget, there is no advantage for them to draft a guy like Mutombo. They wouldn't get anything good in return for him at 5 million. Further, Mutombo can just threaten to retire if he gets drafted, and he would probably hold true on that promise if it happened. They'd probably be more interested in Trybanski because he makes less money, is younger, and isn't going to retire at the end of the year. If he doesn't pan out, he's a FA at the end of next year too. 

If IT decides to protect Trybanski and leave Mutombo unprotected, it is probably just so he can see if he can include Trybanski in a trade as a salary cap throw in. I would hope that he is not on the roster at the start of next year, because if he is then that means the Knicks did not keep on of the following - Baker, DJ, or whoever their 2nd round pick is (since the roster size is 15 right now).


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> What I find strange is we NEVER get easy buckets..Have you ever seen an alley opp dunk for the Knicks???


Which is why we don't blow out teams. The Knicks are not particularly athletic either, the only players on the team who could recieve an alley oop are TT and DJ. DJ is on the bench most of the time, and TT only gets the ball on the perimeter. The only time he moves towards the basket is when he's got the ball in his hands. None of the big men on the team can throw it down. The last non-Marcus Camby alley oop by a Knick in the Garden was the one John Wallace threw to Patrick Ewing.

Although that's obviously different with a healthy McDyess.



> Do we ever fast break????


Not since we traded Van Horn.



> I think Wilkens has to go.....


Or take fastbreak lessons from Don Chaney. Most of the fastbreak points now are actually by Shandon and Penny, since they gets fouled 9 times out of 10 and go to the line. Marbury hasn't been taking it all the way on fastbreaks lately, he's quick to pass it up court. Maybe his legs are tired.

You also need defensive rebounds to start the fast break, and the Knicks aren't good at getting those. The best defensive rebounders are KT and Mutombo, and neither is good at running the floor. Knicks could use someone like an Amare/Kemp/K-Mart who will run the break after getting the rebound. On our fast breaks it's so obvious where it's going. It's going up front to Shandon/Penny/TT. Since Marbury passes it to them when they're 40 feet away from the basket, he can't take it to the basket himself and then dish, and if he did do that, there wouldn't be anybody trailing the break anyway, so everybody would know where a pass would be going anyway. 

Even if the Knicks put TT at PF so he can trail on the break, that doesn't leave anybody who can grab rebounds to start the break. Quite a flawed team.

When the Nets rebound, they automatically know where Kidd is, and Kidd is already running on the break waiting for the pass. When the Knicks rebound, nobody knows where Marbury is, they waste time looking for him, and Marbury usually waits to recieve the ball before he starts running.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Its mind boggling how hard we have to work for baskets..NJ without Kidd and martin were taking layup practice against us..

I blame a majority of it on Wilkens...The offense is UGLY


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Knicks are protecting Marbury, Williams, TT, KT, Sweetney, and Nazr in the expansion, that much is certain.


I cant see the knicks letting go of DJ....I assume he will be signed...When could they sign him??Before the expansion draft??

Signing Baker...Hmmmmm...just dont know about that one....


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Webber is a consumate choke artist who has never won anything in his life, I can't stand him either but would gladly take him over Raweed, based on attitude alone, and yes I am familiar with Chris webber.

Getting Doug Christie here is a myth I think, he is still way to good to be given up for Penny unless, Peeler emerges. 


I don't know if Penny Expires but, perhaps trading TT for Christie or For Webber would work? 

Anyway, I don't deny the skill but I hate crybabies, I'd rather make a run for Shareef.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

The expansion draft is held BEFORE the NBA Draft. It happens 3 days after the NBA Finals concludes.

No trades can occur until draft day, and no signings can take place for like a month.

DJ doesn't have to be protected because he's not on the Knick roster at that point. How do you protect or claim a guy that doesn't have a contract?

That doesn't mean DJ won't sign with Charlotte on his own. The Knicks can't stop him from doing that, and he'd undoubtedly start or get a 6th man role, depending on who the team drafts.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Would Penny, KT, and Sweetney be enough to get it done?


No, why the heck would the Kings want Penny? That just isn't enough for a star player.



> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> If you want to make this deal even more complex, would Houston, KT, and Sweetney be able to bring in Webber and Christie?


The Kings might do that if it were a player other than Doug Christie. Christie's defense is far superior to Houston's. They don't want to become an even worse defensive team.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Actually I made a slight oversight in this.

I thought Webber got paid more than 14 million. Like around 17 million. Well, he does make 17 million next season, so maybe there's some hope. He's only making a million more than Penny, so looks like that is out of the question. Houston makes a million more than Webber, so that's out of the question too.

Divac is making 12 million which is coming off the books. If he comes back, it'll be for a lot less. Looks like the Kings aren't going to need to salary dump yet, their payroll is set to decrease by 11 million (throw in Divac at say, 5 million, and they still cut 6 million). Still, Webber's contract gets expensive fast. Their starting lineup makes 48 million of the 54 guaranteed next year. In 05-06 their starting lineup will make 54 million. They're going to have to trade Webber at some point if they want to stay competitive and be able to afford a bench.

This is where cheapies like Mike Sweetney and Frank Williams come in.

Chris Webber 17.5

Allan Houston 17.5
Anfernee Hardaway 14.6
Tim Thomas 12.9
Shandon Anderson 7.3
Kurt Thomas 5.8
Nazr Mohammed 5.2
Dikembe Mutombo 4.4
Moochie Norris 3.8
Othella Harrington 3.1
Mike Sweetney 1.9
Cezery Trybanski 1.7
Frank Williams 0.9

There has got to be a winning combination somewhere in there.

Anderson/Thomas/Sweetney/Williams is a little under 16 million. Throw in Trybanski that's about 17 and a half million, Webber's salary.

That gives the Kings a bench of (assuming Vlade returns)

C Thomas/Trybanski
PF Thomas/Sweetney/Songaila
SF Anderson/Wallace
SG Peeler/Anderson
PG Jackson/Williams

If Vlade doesn't return, then KT could either start or backup PF/C off the bench while either Sweetney or Songaila start.

If the Kings don't want KT, then how about Nazr Mohammed? Mohammed could start if Divac leaves (with Brad Miller at PF again) or come off the bench if Divac returns. And he isn't signed to a long term deal like KT is.

It all depends on how much the Kings decide they need/want Webber. Which will probably be decided by this year's postseason success.


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## Dark Praetor (Mar 20, 2004)

Would Vlade still be starting if he came back?

I can see him starting merely for the leadership role, and the way he plays. He doesn't rely on athleticism. 6 assists in 29 minutes? 80% shooting? Yes please.

Of course, that's just tonight's stats. Taking his season averages, he averages 10/6/6 in 30 minutes on 47.3% shooting.

I don't see how that changes much. He'd still be floppy Vlade doing the same thing he has been for ages.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

The thing is...you can point to ANY of the King's starters and they'd be a whole lot better than what we've got starting now...hell even some of their bench players would be grabbing some serious minutes here. My two favorite teams...I don't see the Kings going through with ANY trade.

I'm all for getting Webber, the best passing big man in the game besides Vlade that is. Knicks desperately need some athleticism...it always makes me angry looking at a box score and seeing the knicks with 2 fast break points, but the other team with like 15-20. But maybe if Lenny ran some set offense we could do it. *shrugs* This team needs lots of help though, it'll be curious to see by how much Isiah deflates the #1 NBA salary.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Well that's the thing, actually Vlade's one weakness. 6 rebounds for a center in 30 minutes is very poor, especially on a team with the tempo the Kings have (more shots for both sides means more opportunities for rebounds). Most centers for the Kings would grab 8 boards minimum in 30 minutes. Imagine what Nazr or Kurt Thomas could do in 30 minutes? KT averaged 8 per 30 on a plodding Knicks squad last year, there's no doubt he'd average a double double in Sac Town. Same goes for Nazr too. Divac's points are nice, but again, many other players in the league could put up bigger numbers playing for the Kings in the same amount of time. He also isn't a shot blocker. He's a big reason why the Kings offense is good, and a big reason why the Kings defense is bad. Brad Miller is not as good for the offense, but he's not as bad for the defense either. I'll take balance in my starting lineup, and leave guys with high ups and downs on the bench until I need them. It's easier to put them into good situations that way, and keep the team from being exploited.

10/6/6

Divac's passing is what sets him apart from everybody else. Those first 2 numbers suck, while that latter number is among the best in the league. Divac could put up 5/3/6 and he'd still be valuable.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>knicksfan</b>!
> im now thinking they might not want houston for webber so we cud add somethin else in tht liek sweetney and work with it, i still think it wud be nice tho to get sheed and webb IM PROLLY JUST DREAMING THOUGH!


They wouldn't want Houston for Webber, they don't have enough shots to go around as it is. It's why Jackson comes off the bench, and Christie starts (as for his defense as well).

What would they need, Christie, Jackson, Peja and Houston for the 2-3?

-Petey


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## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

If this trade happens...

you guys should try to bring Divac to play one more year.. but in NY! throwing Mutombo to Sactown


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

"With more minutes, the more I learn, the more help I will be out there on the court," Sweetney said.

I like his attitude. He's young but has great maturity and the only reason he went at #9 in the draft is because he's slightly undersized at the PF, though very skilled and a great rebounder. I think instead the Knicks should try and hold on to Sweetney and see if they can make something special out of him, which chances are, will happen. I look to Sweetney to work hard over the summer and lose some more weight.
The same goes for Dermarr Johnson. He had that terrible accident and then everyone forgot about him, even the fact that he was a #6 pick. The Knicks need to try and re-sign him in the summer especially if he can put on some weight and gain some strength.
I say we should go after a center instead of CWebb who can help us have a formidable frontcourt in the East. He goes by the name of Eric Dampier. Let's face it. The TWolves actually had problems beating the Warriors because Garnett was getting worn down by Dampier and his defensive ferocity. Dampier will be 30 this year and I think if we offer him a 6 year contract, we'll be the winners because he'll be at the peak of his career athletically for the greater part of that contract.
Lastly, we seriously need to unload Allan Houston. Yes, he's been a great servant for the team over the last few years but those days are really gone. He's just too injury prone and even though shooting is about all he's good at, age is beginning to catch up with him and soon even that aspect of his game will be affected.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

max,I couldnt agree with you more..We dont need Webber,and we dont need Sheed..We DESPAPATELY NEED a CENTER...The Knicks do not play good team Defense,and it will be worse if H20 comes back....

The Knicks should do whatever it takes to get Damp....Naz is not what the Knicks need,its painfully obvious and Baker is not gona cut it...

I would also hold on to Sweetney at all costs..The guy is going to be 17 point 13 board guy in the league

Demmar is our 2 guard of the future...15 pounds on him and another year of experience and he should be solid


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> max,I couldnt agree with you more..


 Heh...so truth, do you want to mail the petition to Isaiah or should I handle it ?:grinning:


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> max,I couldnt agree with you more..We dont need Webber,and we dont need Sheed..We DESPAPATELY NEED a CENTER...The Knicks do not play good team Defense,and it will be worse if H20 comes back....
> 
> The Knicks should do whatever it takes to get Damp....Naz is not what the Knicks need,its painfully obvious and Baker is not gona cut it...
> ...



You know part of having a strong defensive backcourt is having a strong defensive powerforward, Sweetney might be a good rebounder now, but even if he attains Danny Fortson status, we'll still have a big hole in the middle.

We need a Defensive Center, and a Defensive Power Forward, Over summer I hope we get real active in trade talks, there's a lot of defense to be had late in the 1st round of this year's draft, and a lot of bigs.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> We need a Defensive Center, and a Defensive Power Forward


thats quite the wish list....Number 1 is a defensive post presence from the 5...How we get one i have no idea..Damp would be first on the list,followed by a camby or blount..

I think what you are hoping for is an offside help defender..That is certainly not KT and Sweets really isnt a leaper either..But Ild be happy to start Sweets

What bigs are you talking about???

And what do we have to offer???

KT???


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