# NBAdraft.net overhyping high school, foreign players



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

I love the job that NBAdraft.net does, but this is ridiculous. Their newest mock draft has no top eight pick coming from college except Emeka Okafor. I usually think COLLEGE players are the ones who are overhyped due to idiots like Dick Vitale and Billy Packer, but this newest mock has swung way too far in the other direction.

I'm going to post their latest mock draft on here so that we have a record of it and can all make fun of it in a couple of months.

1. Dwight Howard, HS Senior
2. Emeka Okafor, Connecticut, Jr.
3. Josh Smith, HS Senior
4. Shaun Livingston, HS Senior
5. Martynas Andriuskevicius, Lithuania
6. Andris Biedrins, Larvia
7. Ivan Chiriaev, Russia
8. Pavel Podkolzine, Russia
9. Devin Harris, Wisconsin, Jr.
10. Ben Gordon, Connecticut, Jr.
11. Andre Iguodala, Arizona, So.
12. Kosta Perovic, Serbia
13. Sebastian Telfair, HS Senior
14. Jameer Nelson, St. Joseph's, Sr.
15. Josh Childress, Stanford, Jr.
16. Sergei Monya, Russia
17. Kris Humphries, Minnesota, Fr.
18. Hakim Warrick, Syracuse, Jr.
19. Roko-Leni Ukic, Croatia
20. Rudy Fernandez, Spain
21. LaMarcus Aldridge, HS Senior
22. Ha Seung-Jin, South Korea
23. Kirk Snyder, Nevada, Jr.
24. Sasha Vujacic, Slovenia
25. Rafael Araujo, Brigham Young, Sr.
26. Al Jefferson, HS Senior
27. Luke Jackson, Oregon, Sr.
28. Anderson Varejao, Brazil
29. Tony Allen, Oklahoma St., Sr.

30. Dorell Wright, HS Senior
31. Romain Sato, Xavier, Sr.
32. Matt Freije, Vanderbilt, Sr.
33. Jaime Lloreda, LSU, Sr.
34. Robert Swift, HS Senior
35. Viktor Khryapa, Russia
36. Lionel Chalmers, Xavier, Sr.
37. Damir Omerhodzic, Croatia
38. Christian Drejer, Denmark
39. Darius Rice, Miami, Sr.
40. Arthur Johnson, Missouri, Sr.
41. Rickey Paulding, Missouri, Sr.
42. Kevin Martin, Western Carolina, Jr.
43. Antonio Burks, Memphis, Sr.
44. Chris Duhon, Duke, Sr.
45. Blake Stepp, Gonzaga, Sr.
46. Tim Pickett, Florida St., Sr.
47. Andre Emmett, Texas Tech, Sr.
48. Brandon Mouton, Texas, Sr.
49. Timmy Bowers, Mississippi St., Sr.
50. Mo Ke, China
51. Nigel Dixon, Western Kentucky, Sr.
52. Chris Garnett, Indiana Southeast, Sr.
53. Rashad Wright, Georgia, Sr.
54. Anthony Roberson, Florida, So.
55. Justin Reed, Mississippi, Sr.
56. Pape Sow, CS-Fullerton, Sr.
57. James Thomas, Texas, Sr.
58. Marcus Moore, Washington St., Sr.
59. Sean Finn, Dayton, Sr.


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## :TorontoRaptors: (May 25, 2003)

... or maybe the US isn't producing as they were a decade ago.


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## sov82 (Nov 5, 2003)

*nah*

Nah just outsourcing former American Jobs to foreigners....If it wasn't for them damn foreigners, I would be in the NBA today.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

I agree with Artest fan here. The draft wont go down like that at all. Darko will scare alot of teams away from draft raw Euro's with potential this year, since alot of the lotto teams will be looking for immediate impact players.


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## :TorontoRaptors: (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> I agree with Artest fan here. The draft wont go down like that at all. Darko will scare alot of teams away from draft raw Euro's with potential this year, since alot of the lotto teams will be looking for immediate impact players.


I believe Darko Milicic was labled as a "project" going into the draft... and he's been just that. Darko's on a top NBA team and he has not surprised anybody with his play.

It's just a matter of the World catching up with the USA in basketball.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Have we forgotten that there haven't been any camps, individual workouts or any type of combine yet? We have no idea how the draft will shake down until the college basketball season is over.


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## Kreamrush (Mar 24, 2004)

Where's Luol Deng????? Am I missing something?


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

They took Deng off the board because people think he's going to come back to Duke for another year. I doubt he does, though, so he'll be back up on the board soon enough.


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## Matthew Maurer (Oct 17, 2002)

Hey Guys long time sense posted sorry but scouting has gone into full swing and I've bee so busy.

I can understand wait many of you are saying but let's look at some things first. Are we hyping too many Euro and HS players? Well in my opinion "no" the feedback we have gotten so far from pro teams, and our sources from several teams points to our current mock. Contrary to popular belief we just don't throw names in a hat and pull them :grinning: to get our mock... It's not just our opinions but it's also the teams we talk too. Some of you guys make great points but to Say Darko has turned scouts off from foreign guys is like saying Kwame Brown, Jonathan Bender and Leon Smith have soured scouts from HSer's which we all know is not the case. Same with Euro's for every Muursepp, Rentzias there is a Peja, Dirk, and a Yao. Don't get into thinking that because somebody performs badly this year that happens to be a euro means that Euro's stock will suffer.


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## ChitwoodStyle (Oct 9, 2003)

It would be different if the College's could get some of the HS'ers to go to school. If Ewing was persuaded why not everyone else. The high schoolers and the guys who leave school early are the ones to blame for the lack of college srs. high in mock drafts.


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

*Re: nah*



> Originally posted by <b>sov82</b>!
> Nah just outsourcing former American Jobs to foreigners....If it wasn't for them damn foreigners, I would be in the NBA today.


Why don't you call Lou Dobb's and complain to him!!

At this point comparing and ranking Euro's to American player is very tough, so I agree tha tthese tranks esp with the Euro's will change a lot. 

Also look for US College players to move up as the NCAA progresses, and some guys prove themselves as winners.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

At this rate, 10 years later the draft would be full of HS kids and foreigners. :yes:


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## JGKoblenz (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Matthew Maurer</b>!
> Hey Guys long to know see sorry but my scouting has gone into full swing and I've bee so busy.
> 
> I can understand wait many of you are saying but let's look at some things first. Are we hyping too many Euro and HS players? Well in my opinion "no" the feedback we have gotten so far from pro teams, and our sources from several teams points to our current mock. Contrary to popular belief we just don't throw names in a hat and pull them :grinning: to get our mock... It's not just our opinions but it's also the teams we talk too. Some of you guys make great points* but to Say Darko has turned scouts off from foreign guys is like saying Kwame Brown, Jonathan Bender and Leon Smith have soured scouts from HSer's which we all know is not the case. Same with Euro's for every Muursepp, Rentzias there is a Peja, Dirk, and a Yao. Don't get into thinking that because somebody performs badly this year that happens to be a euro means that Euro's stock will suffer. *


Hey Matthew, nice to see you posting again, I agree with you, especially on the bolded part. 

Here is my take on the issue:
Their newest mock has 12 international (not only Euros) players on the first round. Last year 8 international players were drafted on the first round. It's defenetly an increase. But if we take a look at both rounds, 2003 had 20 international players, 2004 mock has 16. When the camps start, we will see some changes on the rankings. Some international names will appear stronger and others will disappear, but I think it's near to reality at this aspect.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

dont blame foreigners for being good at basketball, and you would not be in the NBA


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## pliumbum (Mar 23, 2004)

i've heard a joke:
"If you're 17 year old, 220cm (7'4) European and you're able to walk and chew gum at the same time, you're a seriuos candidate to nba."

And that is true. Why don't they look for european forwards or guards?


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kirk_2003</b>!
> At this rate, 10 years later the draft would be full of HS kids and foreigners. :yes:


Thats why Chiriaev is being scouted so much - becasue he's both!! He's got both "Potential" and "Upside!!"


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## prerak (Oct 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>pliumbum</b>!
> 
> And that is true. Why don't they look for european forwards or guards?


They are this year and next. Guys like Monya, Khryapa, Ukic, Vujacic, Huertas, Koljevic, Halperin, etc. Except most of them are later picks. Its not simply a hotbed for PF/Cs anymore.


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## pjc9 (Mar 25, 2004)

*agree with Artest fan*

I feel you. I always think high schoolers are overrated, but European players are close to reaching that status. Sure, you got Peja, Dirk, Paul, ZI, etc. but then you got guys like Darko (although the jury's still out). 
With Euros and prepsters, it's always a boom or bust proposition. At least with college ballers, even if they don't become superstars, they'll most likely be solid players for a long time (ex. Shane Battier, Ray Allen, etc.)


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

When Kwame went 1 and then teams didnt want to draft high schoolers the next year. That is why Amare slipped to 9. The same will happen will Euro's.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Have we forgotten that there haven't been any camps, individual workouts or any type of combine yet? We have no idea how the draft will shake down until the college basketball season is over.


Exactly. Wait for the camps to finish before you start judging these foreign or HS players. 

ArtestFan, I doubt you've seen any of them play. Andriuskeviscus, Biedrins, Chiriaev, will all these guys go in the lottery? Probably not, but what other big man would you be drafting right now in place of them? Jamie Lloreda? Nigel Dixon? Besides Okafor and Araujo, do you see any legit big men declaring from college?


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## Gripni (Dec 14, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>pliumbum</b>!
> i've heard a joke:
> "If you're 17 year old, 220cm (7'4) European and you're able to walk and chew gum at the same time, you're a seriuos candidate to nba."
> 
> And that is true. Why don't they look for european forwards or guards?


<s>Because the only reason Euros are in the NBA is because they are tall.</s> j/k

It's not really that teams are biased to big Euros. They are biased to big men. All of the top 8 picks on NBADraft.net are 6'7 or taller. Five are PFs or Cs. There is one guard.


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

I don't think there is any Euro bias. All the tall American kids are discovered early and get to the NBA as soon as possible. There are many tall Euros that aren't as familiar.

Don't forget the top 2 guys in the draft are American bigs, so its not that rediculous.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

first point, camps arent going to change things much because like the nfl the top guys dont work out there. second point, anyone that thinks that darko milicic at 18 is a bust because he isnt getting playing time for larry brown's veteran team is in for a rude awakining in a couple of years, i contend he would go number one if he came out this year, even knowing what they know now about him.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly. Wait for the camps to finish before you start judging these foreign or HS players.
> ...


You are missing the point. I am not judging any player in particular, because I have not seen anyone of them play. I'm just saying that in general there's no way there will be so few college players at the top of the lottery.

In no year have so many high school and foreign players been that high, with just one collegian in the top eight. Even in 2001 which was supposed to have an unprecedented number of them, we had Jason Richardson, Shane Battier, and Eddie Griffin in the top 7. And NBAdraft.net has a history of overrating the stock of high school and foreign players, such as when they said Darko Milicic would be drafted #1, and James Lang would be drafted #3. I can't think of any time when they have comparatively overrated a high school player. We have to take bad mistakes such as this into consideration when we look at their mock.

Still, it's great to have that much information on prospects that so few of us have seen.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rainman</b>!
> second point, anyone that thinks that darko milicic at 18 is a bust because he isnt getting playing time for larry brown's veteran team is in for a rude awakining in a couple of years, i contend he would go number one if he came out this year, even knowing what they know now about him.


I completely agree with everything you said in this post, nothing more to say about it.


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

The Euro thing will blow over becasue none of them are superstars and they cant win anything anyways.


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## ChitwoodStyle (Oct 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Starbury03</b>!
> The Euro thing will blow over becasue none of them are superstars and they cant win anything anyways.


That is the most crazy thing I have ever heard. Do you even watch basketball?


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## sactownflava (Mar 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Starbury03</b>!
> The Euro thing will blow over becasue none of them are superstars and they cant win anything anyways.


You have the least quality posts on here. Its obvious you have no basketball knowledge.


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> And NBAdraft.net has a history of overrating the stock of high school and foreign players, such as when they said Darko Milicic would be drafted #1, ...


Darko Milicic was never #1 in the Mock of 2003. It was all LeBron James, from June 2001 till June 2003. Milicic was listed as #1 in 2004, what he would be without a doubt.



> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> ... and James Lang would be drafted #3.


I can't remember that one. James *White* was #3 once, but that's another story.
Kendrick Perkins was #3 in the 2003 mock for some time, but that was more than a year before the draft. No one could know that he wouldn't improve during his last two years.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChitwoodStyle</b>!
> 
> 
> That is the most crazy thing I have ever heard. Do you even watch basketball?


In his defense, how many people put Dirk, arguably Europe's top player, on the level of KG, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, and T-Mac? Those are the only Superstars I consider in the NBA.

Also, how many foreigners have lead their teams to titles? In the past few reigns, it's been Duncan, Shaq/Kobe, Hakeem, Jordan, Magic/Kareem, Bird.

All, with the exception of Hakeem, born in the USA. And even Hakeem went to college in the US and learned to play here. He was a citizen as well.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> And NBAdraft.net has a history of overrating the stock of high school and foreign players, such as when they said Darko Milicic would be drafted #1, and James Lang would be drafted #3. I can't think of any time when they have comparatively overrated a high school player. We have to take bad mistakes such as this into consideration when we look at their mock.
> 
> Still, it's great to have that much information on prospects that so few of us have seen.


Darko #1? James Lang #3? Don't remember this happening during 5 months prior to the draft. Teams in the NBA are desperately looking for big men, and right now foreign countries are producing them. They may not be as physically built as the big men in America, but their potential in skill is huge and nowadays that is what players are drafted on. Like I said, come draft time there may not be all these foreigners in the top 10, but someone has to prove that they are better than them leading up the draft.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

I guess you guys weren't paying too close attention to their mock last year, because Darko was listed at #1 less than two months before the draft.

Here is a thread about it.


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## Genjuro (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Matt85163</b>!
> 
> 
> In his defense, how many people put Dirk, arguably Europe's top player, on the level of KG, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, and T-Mac? Those are the only Superstars I consider in the NBA.
> ...


I wouldn't put Kobe and McGrady on the same list that Garnett, Duncan and O'Neal. No way. There's no way that a team featuring any of those three players, even with the worst supporting cast you can imagine, would be so lousy in the Leastern Conference. And we also know the history of Kobe without O'Neal in the Lakers.

It seems neither Nowitzki, Gasol or Stojakovic are or never will be on that level, but there's one player I hope will lead his team to the championship in the future: Yao Ming. Also, I don't think there's a crop of American players comparable to the International ones that arrived to the League in the span of 1998-2002: Stojakovic, Nowitzki, Gasol, Kirilenko and Ming.

I strongly agree with rainman: Milicic would go first this year even knowing his production so far.

As for the topic, the trend of high schoolers and international players dominating the lottery will only increase. Each college class gets weaker and weaker with so many high schoolers declaring, and it's difficult to find outstanding talent or potential there.

Finally, about LeBron being first in nbadraft.net, while it's true that Darko was placed first in a certain moment, I think it was just for 24 hours or something like that.


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## 2cent (Apr 20, 2003)

Isnt Hype what the draft has always been about. If it wasnt foreigners or high schoolers it would be college underclassmen getting over or under-rated by everyone. Some times its justified sometimes not but get used to it as 4-5 years from now I can see the first round being nearly all h/s and foreigners.

I dont think those in the USA realise sometimes that theres 30 times as many kids outside America ball'n these days, most of whom have dreams of playing in the show. Now they wont all make it obviously but sheer weight of numbers means that the trickle occuring now will become a flood and the league will be better for it. As the level of ability required to make the league will be higher than it is currently.

Maybe one day the nba might need a second division like in most soccer leagues to accomodate all the players that wont make it onto rosters.

As for the statement no foreigners have led a team to a title or arent superstars its only a matter of time. The players who get drafted in coming years will have been focusing on getting ready to play in the nba since theyre talent got noticed, say around 14-15 rather than in previous years where I think its probably something they didnt contemplate till they where in there last year of h/s.

This I feel is what made LBJ come into the league and contribute straight away. Apart from his undoubted talent he probably knew he would bypass college 3 years ago hence the nba ready body.


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## Matthew Maurer (Oct 17, 2002)

> And NBAdraft.net has a history of overrating the stock of high school and foreign players, such as when they said Darko Milicic would be drafted #1, and James Lang would be drafted #3. I can't think of any time when they have comparatively overrated a high school player. We have to take bad mistakes such as this into consideration when we look at their mock.
> 
> Still, it's great to have that much information on prospects that so few of us have seen.



Yeah we did have Darko going number one for 12 hours. Every once in a while we like to have fun what can I say :grinning: But we have never and I mean ever had James Lang as the number 3 pick in the draft never!!! Like I said all you guys make great points you really do. But to say that the foreign players suck is well uninformed. Sure there are some busts just like every other league NFL, MLB , NHL, but to say that these guys are overated isn't really see everything the way one should. All I know is you can keep Shane Battier and Keith Van Horn (4YR proven college players) I'll take Peja, Ming and Dirk thank you.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Have we forgotten that there haven't been any camps, individual workouts or any type of combine yet? We have no idea how the draft will shake down until the college basketball season is over.


Well, in their very next mock, college players like Devin Harris and Ben Gordon are already moving up, as it was obvious all along that college players would do.

I guess we CAN have an idea of how the draft will shake down.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, in their very next mock, college players like Devin Harris and Ben Gordon are already moving up, as it was obvious all along that college players would do.
> ...


Yes, all I was saying was the mock draft is no where near as accurate until after the NCAA tournament wound down. I still don't know who is thinking about going pro out of college.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Although Mullin, Thorn and their colleagues are not allowed to comment on high school players until they've declared for the league's June draft, *the consensus among those present was that Connecticut's Emeka Okafor could be the lone college player taken in the first 10 picks, the other nine being a mix of high schoolers and foreigners.* Vaccaro predicted that as many as 15 high school players could be first-rounders this year.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=bucher_ric&id=1772580


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

And what I don't understand is that there never EVER!! has been a team full of young players that has eventually won a ring. Just like Matt said there are 5 great players in this league (King James and Yao could be next on the list). If you don't have them, you don't win. It's that simple. 

I 'm sure Bulls fans can tell you what it is like to watch young "phenoms" flounder around year after year.


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

why would the Wizards select a point guard? I guess they just rate the players 1-58


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Crazy.

Lots of hype. I wouldn't be surprised if HSers beyond a few and int'l players were passed on to some extent, much like last year.

What's this about no team of young players ever winning a title? Weren't Jordan and Pippen both drafted as Bulls? Worthy and Magic? Stockton and Malone (close)? Yeah, they'll have to stay for a while, but you've probably got to take good rookies if you can.


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## daveybreitz (Dec 17, 2003)

I remember in 2001 on their 2002 mock draft they had Stoudemire as the number one overall pick and Shavlik Randolph as the number two pick.

They toally hype the preps.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>daveybreitz</b>!
> I remember in 2001 on their 2002 mock draft they had Stoudemire as the number one overall pick and Shavlik Randolph as the number two pick.
> 
> They toally hype the preps.


They thought Stoudemire would be a stong pick in '02. The horror!

Randolph was also one of the best HSers then.

It's porbably not as bad as the reality of 2. Sam Bowie 3. Michael Jordan


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

*Re: agree with Artest fan*



> Originally posted by <b>pjc9</b>!
> 
> With Euros and prepsters, it's always a boom or bust proposition. At least with college ballers, even if they don't become superstars, they'll most likely be solid players for a long time (ex. Shane Battier, Ray Allen, etc.)


You can't really say its only boom or bust with high school players, look at players like Rashard Lewis, Al Harrington and Deshawn Stevenson. Right now they are solid players, (Lewis seems to be on ther verge of stardom). Also remember the high school to pros thing really got into full swing in 98, so those kids in that draft are only 24 or 25 right now, so they still have time to do something with their careers. 

But for every high school bust there are college busts too, just look at players like Ed O'Bannon and Shawn Respert, 4 year stars and lottery picks but didn't last in the league for more than a couple of years.


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## thekid (Apr 3, 2003)

I don't see how Chris Duhon goes 45th and Luke Jackson goes 15th, can you say bust? Duhon played great D despite the ribs that were often repeated by the announcers..


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> They thought Stoudemire would be a stong pick in '02. The horror!


:laugh:


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## Matthew Maurer (Oct 17, 2002)

> I don't see how Chris Duhon goes 45th and Luke Jackson goes 15th, can you say bust? Duhon played great D despite the ribs that were often repeated by the announcers..



You wanna talk about hype that is hype. Let me say one thing Chris Duhon is a solid PG but he is not the great player many expected him to become. I don't know if you guys remember but he was the top PG prospect out of HS! Had he left after his freshman year he could have been drafted in the first round.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> I love the job that NBAdraft.net does, but this is ridiculous. Their newest mock draft has no top eight pick coming from college except Emeka Okafor. I usually think COLLEGE players are the ones who are overhyped due to idiots like Dick Vitale and Billy Packer, but this newest mock has swung way too far in the other direction.
> 
> I'm going to post their latest mock draft on here so that we have a record of it and can all make fun of it in a couple of months.
> ...


For all the talk about high school players taking over the draft, eight of the top ten picks were college players. Look at this ridiculous mock that had only one college player in the top eight. :laugh:

Let's have some apologies from all the people who when I started this thread basically called me a racist who couldn't accept that the rest of the world was catching up to the US.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: NBAdraft.net overhyping high school, foreign players*



> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> For all the talk about high school players taking over the draft, eight of the top ten picks were college players. Look at this ridiculous mock that had only one college player in the top eight. :laugh:
> ...


You do understand that you look like silly because this is the most HS players ever selected in the 1st round in NBA history. You are also looking at a player ranking and this can't actually be called wrong for at least another 3-5 years. 

Remember, the easiest thing to be in this world is a critic. Can you do better? Doubtful....


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