# The Darko pick



## Nevus

What do critics say now that the Pistons won the title? Should they still have taken Carmelo? You can't make the argument that they need him to help them "win now." Do you still think it was the wrong pick?

Tayshaun Prince was hugely important for the Pistons in their entire championship run, especially defending Kobe in the Finals. Would Carmelo have been better?

Just curious. I think Detroit winning now may be cause to retrospectively change the way we looked at the draft.


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## alchemist

See, the Pistons chose Carmelo over Darko. They didn't choose Carmelo over Tayshaun. Had they chose Melo, they still would've had Tayshaun playing the 3. But Carmelo would've contributed much more than Darko. You can be sure that if Melo didn't grasp Larry Brown's defensive principles, he'd be sitting on the bench. Detroit's rookies didn't impact the season much, so it really doesn't matter. But, all those former Wizards sure made a difference! Good job, Detroit.


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## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> Just curious. I think Detroit winning now may be cause to retrospectively change the way we looked at the draft.


Not necessarily. All this means is that the GM's with vision Jerry West, Joe Dumars, RC Buford, Donnie Walsh can mold a team together if they have an exact plan and are ready to execute it. 

Good player personnel people is key in the NBA nowadays. If you have a system and guys who fit it, you can win. Did Kupchak have a plan these last few years or was Phil making all the decisions? 

Seriously Mitch (I, Robot) Kupchak has a very big off-season because I think if he does nothing to improve the team (especially if Kobe and Shaq are still together), he will lose his job.


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## alchemist

Yo- good post. Just like all the pictures you've got in your avatar.


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## Minstrel

To me, this just reinforces that Dumars made the right pick...I've believed it all along. When scouts are as unanimous about a player like Milicic that he could be a dominant big man, you have to take him. He was number two on pretty much every team's draft board.

Anthony seems like an excellent player, but I don't think he's franchise-changing. Milcic has the possibility to be that.

To think they were able to squirrel away a project for a few years down the line *and* still win the championship is tremendous. If Milicic *does* pan, he becomes the centerpiece of a long-lived powerhouse.


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## Johnny Mac

As long as Darko ends up being as good or better than Carmelo in the future, it was the right pick, since they didnt need the extra help Melo would have provided this season in place of Darko. 

Joe Dumars obviously knows what hes doing, and Darko was most likely the right pick. I think he has the potential to be the best player in this draft class, his ceiling is higher than any other player in this class IMO. Its just a matter of reaching it. 

I've liked what I've heard from Pistons players and management about Darkos progress, unfortunetly I end up seeing different things in the limited action he plays in. However, thats too small of sample to really consider it legit. Ben Wallace says that Darko has adopted Bens work out routine and sticks with it. I'm always hearing about Darkos progress, and I truly think the experience he got this year just observing how a champion goes about their business will be valuable to him down the line. 

I have become such a big fan of every elite player in this draft class. I am a huge fan of Lebron, Darko, Melo, Wade, Bosh, Kaman and Hinrich. I am really excited to see how they develop and what kind of players they become in the future.


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## futuristxen

It's scary to think of how good Detroit could be and for how long if Darko does pan out. He's only 18, by the time he is ready for prime time it will be just about time to put Sheed and Ben out to pasture, and then you turn the team over to Prince and Darko.

I'll say this though. I have yet to actually see anything with my own two eyes that makes me believe Darko is going to be great. Personally I wonder if the Pistons did the right thing in passing up on Chris Bosh.


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> I have become such a big fan of every elite player in this draft class. I am a huge fan of Lebron, Darko, Melo, Wade, Bosh, Kaman and Hinrich. I am really excited to see how they develop and what kind of players they become in the future.


Helluva draft class. Just one helluva draft class. Could very well be one for the ages. Lots of players from it that I really enjoy watching and will be anxious to see develop.


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## Wiggum

See, I just don't see why people love Darko so much. He looks awful and totally lost on the floor. I haven't see him do a single thing all season where I think "Hmm, good play."

I guess I just don't understand scouts' obsession with totally raw players; players who absolutely cannot contribute to an NBA game. "But Wiggum, Darko's different. He could develop into a truly dominant big man." Yeah, just like Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry, Nikoloz Tskitishvili, Kwame Brown, and DeSagana Diop, all of whom the same scouts loved. Not to mention Kendrick Perkins, James Lang and Ndudi Ebi, who contributed absolutely nothing to their teams in their rookie years. Lang never even made a NBA roster.

If you say things like "I've always thought the Darko pick was a great move," you're either a flip-flopper or you're blindly believing the scouts, because nothing we fans have seen this season has indicated at all that Darko even deserves a roster spot next year. At the time of last year's draft, we knew nothing of Darko, other than the fact that he had just finished a season for Hemofarm in which he averaged 9.5 points, 4.6 rebounds, and 0.7 assists per game. Meanwhile, Carmelo Anthony was the best player on a NCAA championship team. Oh yeah, and at the time, the Pistons biggest weakness was scoring at the forward position.

The Pistons should have taken Carmelo, period. The fact that this mistake did not end up costing them doesn't change the fact that it was still a mistake. That's like saying Ben Wallace's 3 point attempt in game 5 wasn't a stupid thing to do because of the fact that they won the game anyway. It didn't cost the Pistons the game, mainly because it was in the 4th quarter and Detroit had a huge lead, but it was still not a smart basketball thing to do. Neither was drafting Darko.


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## Derrex

The Pistons won the championship, how can they complain? Darko might not pan out, but if he does, in the size challenged east, it might be a dynasty. Its at least twice as hard to come by a talented big man as it is to come by a talented wing player. The risks and the rewards are about equal with Darko and Carmello. On top of that, the Pistons needed size. I think most people are giving up on Darko too early. 


After all the Pistons are 20-0 when he plays in the game.:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:


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## Tersk

> Originally posted by <b>Derrex</b>!
> The Pistons won the championship, how can they complain? Darko might not pan out, but if he does, in the size challenged east, it might be a dynasty. Its at least twice as hard to come by a talented big man as it is to come by a talented wing player. The risks and the rewards are about equal with Darko and Carmello. On top of that, the Pistons needed size. I think most people are giving up on Darko too early.
> 
> 
> After all the Pistons are 20-0 when he plays in the game.:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:


They are actually 35-6 with him


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## patticus

cant say that, carmelo may have brought scoring punch, but he may also have ruined chemistry (he's getting that whiner rep now), or detracted from prince's playing time (definitely) or detroit's team D - in the long run may not have been better for detroit - you cant say otherwise b/c they DID win!


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## MagnusPinus

> Originally posted by <b>patticus</b>!
> cant say that, carmelo may have brought scoring punch, but he may also have ruined chemistry (he's getting that whiner rep now), or detracted from prince's playing time (definitely) or detroit's team D - in the long run may not have been better for detroit - you cant say otherwise b/c they DID win!


So true...With Melo the offense would have been different..Less shots for Hamilton, Billups..more isolation plays...And then more important the difence would have been a lot weaker..because with Melo Prince would have had less minutes..this is certain..
U can't just add Carmelo's talent to the equation..With a guy like that everything changes in a team balance.


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## The Mad Viking

Wiggum:

Kwame Brown is well on his way to being a franchise player.

Jermaine O'Neal looked as lost as Darko for his first 2 years.

Darko had terrific rates of blocks and good rates for steals; his rebounding was fine, and even his scoring, despite an abysmal shooting percentage on a very small sample, is not bad on a per minute basis.

Everything point to Darko being a very good NBA player. And perhaps a dominant superstar.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> If you say things like "I've always thought the Darko pick was a great move," you're either a flip-flopper or you're blindly believing the scouts


Why would anyone be a "flip-flopper" at this point? What great performances has Milicic turned in that would make a doubter suddenly "flip-flop" into a believer?

Yes, I, for one, am believing the scouts. As did all the NBA franchises, as far as I heard...he was supposedly the unanimous number 2 pick.



> The fact that this mistake did not end up costing them doesn't change the fact that it was still a mistake.
> ...
> it was still not a smart basketball thing to do. Neither was drafting Darko.


Evaluating as a mistake a situation that has yet to resolve its self one way or the other makes no sense. Tracy McGrady was deemed a bust two seasons into his career. I imagine you would have cut him loose, as a 'mistake,' and never looked back.

There's no need to try and convince you with "But Wiggum..." arguments. There are a number of reasons why Milicic was the right pick and still continues to be the right pick, but you've made up your mind based on about 20 minutes of total play at age 18.


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## RP McMurphy

Great post Minstrel.


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## Moe The Bartender

*It was a bad pick*

Darko is not athletic, and I have not seen even the slightest hint of greatness. It might have seemed like a good pick at the time, but after watching the guy play (albeit very little)...it was a horrrrrrriblllle pick. Melo or Wade would have been much better picks.


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## Nevus

*Re: It was a bad pick*



> Originally posted by <b>Moe The Bartender</b>!
> Darko is not athletic, and I have not seen even the slightest hint of greatness. It might have seemed like a good pick at the time, but after watching the guy play (albeit very little)...it was a horrrrrrriblllle pick. Melo or Wade would have been much better picks.


By all accounts he is very athletic. At the Chicago camp he recorded a vertical as high as Carmelo's, and in the Pistons workout he recorded one of the best lateral quickness scores they ever had.


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## tdizzle

If Detroit had drafted Carmelo Anthony over Darko Milicic I don't think the Pistons would have won the title this year. That's all I'm going to say.


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## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> Tracy McGrady was deemed a bust two seasons into his career. I imagine you would have cut him loose, as a 'mistake,' and never looked back.


While I agree with just about everything else you've said about Darko, I'm scratching my head at that comment right there. No one in their right mind was calling McGrady a bust in either of his first two seasons. He was compared to Pippen as an 18 year old, and that stuck with him until he was out of Toronto (and even sometimes after).

But as far as Darko goes, everything I've heard about him and seen of him outside of NBA games has seemed to indicate that he'll be a fine player. The line about the Pistons being 35-6 when Darko plays is hilarious..


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Arclite</b>!
> 
> 
> While I agree with just about everything else you've said about Darko, I'm scratching my head at that comment right there. No one in their right mind was calling McGrady a bust in either of his first two seasons. He was compared to Pippen as an 18 year old, and that stuck with him until he was out of Toronto (and even sometimes after).


In his first few seasons with Toronto, he landed in Darrell Walker's doghouse and was benched a lot. After two or three such seasons, I heard *lots* of talk that he was a "disappointment" and a "wasted pick."


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## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> In his first few seasons with Toronto, he landed in Darrell Walker's doghouse and was benched a lot. After two or three such seasons, I heard *lots* of talk that he was a "disappointment" and a "wasted pick."


He might have been in the dog house for part of his rookie season, but Darrell Walker was fired mid-season and McGrady was the sixth man almost the entire team Butch Carter was there (until McGrady went to Orlando). You could have heard that talk early in his rookie season I guess, but T-Mac wasn't some consensus bust after his first/second season - especially considering he was a #9 overall (by the way, how about the 9th pick? Dirk, T-mac, Marion, and Amare drafted there in the last seven years). Besides, he must have been doing something right because after "two or three such seasons" he got signed to a max contract.


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## remy23

The Darko pick will need 2-3 years before we know which pick should have been made. By that time, it will all be 20-20.

If Darko becomes as good or better than Anthony, he was the better pick. But if Darko is clearly in the inferior player in a few years, it might look bad. 

If Melo keeps rubbing people the wrong way personality wise, you could argue even if Darko is the lesser player in a few years, as long as Darko is still servicable and less of a distraction, he'd be the better fit.

We'll see.


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## ballocks

> Originally posted by <b>Arclite</b>!
> 
> While I agree with just about everything else you've said about Darko, I'm scratching my head at that comment right there. No one in their right mind was calling McGrady a bust in either of his first two seasons. He was compared to Pippen as an 18 year old, and that stuck with him until he was out of Toronto (and even sometimes after).


i don't know why some people choose to be so firm in beliefs that are based primarily on fiction. the above is just one example of revisionist history at play.

although not labelling mcgrady a "bust", per se, many people did indeed think he was a worthless pick in 1997-98. darrell walker was quoted as saying that if mcgrady didn't up his work ethic several notches, he'd be out of the league in no time. 

he actually said that.

98-99 (his second year) had mcgrady playing in the regular rotation for the first time, his skills were beginning to show noticeable development (alongside vince), and 99-00 was when he began to flourish.

it was only one year, but there were many people who thought t-mac would never pan out back in 1997. he was nothing like the player we see today. personally, i thought he was one of the worst players in the league that season. he had natural talent, that was evident, but his jumpshot, handle and defense left much to be desired. as a rookie, tracy was your typical 18-year-old boy playing amongst 10 year veterans: mistakes galore. 

while i don't think the comparison to darko is necessarily valid, i just thought i'd clear up some confusion.

peace


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## Yyzlin

While I do think Milicic will eventually pan out, I can only imagine how much better of a fit Bosh would have been, as another poster had stated. He would be another incredibly athletic forward, with the length and great blocking instincts. 

While Milicic performed well in the physical tests for the draft, I'm just not seeing it. He doesn't seem to run very well, and actually appears very lead footed at times. I'm not sure he fits very well into the current Piston's pressure defense scheme, which requires extremely active players. 

Going back to Bosh, he would actually be a reason *not* to resign Rasheed Wallace as he could conceivably slide into Wallace's role next year. Then again, with Bosh, I'm not sure Detroit would have went after Wallace in the first place, and their championship might not have happened. So in a certain way, perhaps picking Milicic and his incompetence was actually a blessing in disguise. Who knows?


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## thrillhouse

even if darko never turns out to be a great basketball player, its clear that he is very athletic


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## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>ballocks</b>!
> 
> although not labelling mcgrady a "bust", per se, many people


So, per se, you just wrote an essay to mock my statement even though you agree with it?


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## ballocks

> Originally posted by <b>Arclite</b>!
> 
> 
> So are you agreeing with me or insulting me? Maybe you didn't read what I was responding to in the first place? I should have said "by his second season" instead of "in either his first or second season", I guess. Still, the quote I was responding to said "after his second season he was considered a bust", so thanks for helping me out there.


no, i caught the "no one in their right mind was calling mcgrady a bust in either of his first two seasons" part. to me, that probably includes his rookie year, in which many people in toronto were apathetic towards mcgrady. like i said, it wasn't that they thought he was a "bust", it's just that they didn't necessarily see him as the next scottie pippen, either. 

while darrell walker misspoke when he publicly challenged t-mac to work harder at his game or risk being unemployed (or in europe) within years, i think he made a general point that held water: mcgrady was nowhere near helping the raptors on the court. if he'd continued his career as sluggishly, he would never have reached his potential. (as i recall, most of his time was spent holed up in his apartment with his playstation, while isiah was pulling out his hair trying to get him to smarten up. he was just a kid, remember...)

i personally don't know what it means to be a "bust", but please don't imply that _everybody_ (in their right minds) knew what t-mac had in store for the nba even as a rookie. he was awful, in my opinion, and had trouble finding even a peripheral role on a 16-66 laughingstock.

bust? i don't know. pippen-to-be? absolutely not. but i'm sure the general perception of mcgrady in 1997-98 was far closer to the former than the latter. 

peace


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## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>ballocks</b>!
> 
> no, i caught the "no one in their right mind was calling mcgrady a bust in either of his first two seasons" part. to me, that probably includes his rookie year, in which many people in toronto were apathetic towards mcgrady. like i said, it wasn't that they thought he was a "bust", it's just that they didn't necessarily see him as the next scottie pippen, either.
> 
> while darrell walker misspoke when he publicly challenged t-mac to work harder at his game or risk being unemployed (or in europe) within years, i think he made a general point that held water: mcgrady was nowhere near helping the raptors on the court. if he'd continued his career as sluggishly, he would never have reached his potential. (as i recall, most of his time was spent holed up in his apartment with his playstation, while isiah was pulling out his hair trying to get him to smarten up. he was just a kid, remember...)
> 
> i personally don't know what it means to be a "bust", but please don't imply that _everybody_ (in their right minds) knew what t-mac had in store for the nba even as a rookie. he was awful, in my opinion, and had trouble finding even a peripheral role on a 16-66 laughingstock.
> 
> bust? i don't know. pippen-to-be? absolutely not. but i'm sure the general perception of mcgrady in 1997-98 was far closer to the former than the latter.
> 
> peace


Yeah, I said I should have amended that particular part to say "after his second season", especially since that was the time frame originally said.

I didn't imply that everyone knew what McGrady would do, but after a nice second season, McGrady had shed the "bust" label, if there was one in the first place, and everyone knew it.

I'm sure if you look back to any scouting reports, you will find pretty easily the one person he was most often compared to - Scottie Pippen. No one thought he would come right out of the gates and blow people away, especially with his body and experience. Why would he be a disappointment if he was drafted KNOWING that it was going to take time for him to develop into the player he would eventually become? Which, actually, is exactly what most people.. in their right minds.. are saying about Darko.


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## Moe The Bartender

If Darko was athletic at a Chicago camp last year, he has lost much of it. My point is this: why take a player (ESPECIALLY at #2) who is going to take 3 years to develop, when you can take someone who can contribute right away. He has a LONGGGG way to go to even be a starter in this league. I don't see how anyone can say that Bosh, Wade, or Melo would not have made Detroit a better team. Granted, they won the title, but Darko had nothing to do with it. Bad pick.


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## Burn

*Re: McGrady*

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1998/draft/si/small.html

Check the bottom of Harrington's snippet. He doesn't say 'bust', but well, you decide. This was before his second season though.


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## Yyzlin

*Re: Re: McGrady*



> Originally posted by <b>Burn</b>!
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1998/draft/si/small.html
> 
> Check the bottom of Harrington's snippet. He doesn't say 'bust', but well, you decide. This was before his second season though.


Obviously that writer isn't too smart, if he considers one season enough to call a high schooler a bust. Just looking at the numbers, McGrady had a very similar rookie season as Bryant, a player who never had such a bust label in his first few years. The difference in perception most likely comes from the fact that Lakers did not expect much from Bryant as a rookie, and brought him along slowly. On the other hand, the Raptors expected McGrady to immediately contribute coming out from high school, and not suprisingly, McGrady couldn't handle it.


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## Yyzlin

*Re: Re: McGrady*

whoops. double post. umm, guess i should do something interesting instead here, huh?

Ooooogaaaaaa, booooggaaaaaa, bidddieee fee!


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## Nevus

*Re: Re: Re: McGrady*



> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> whoops. double post. umm, guess i should do something interesting instead here, huh?
> 
> Ooooogaaaaaa, booooggaaaaaa, bidddieee fee!


Yawn. I am not impressed!


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## jokeaward

Moe, you better close you eyes for the next few drafts. Most rookies won't be worth a darn, but prospects, third, and fourth year players will. You'll have to be patient, i.e. Kwame. Even Curry hasn't been bad for a 20-yr old, though he needs to work harder.

How could Darko fool Dumars?

They saw him workout, they saw him play in Europe, they knew he was a project, they had no problem taking another foreigner (Delfino), etc.


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## thrillhouse

> Originally posted by <b>Moe The Bartender</b>!
> If Darko was athletic at a Chicago camp last year, he has lost much of it. My point is this: why take a player (ESPECIALLY at #2) who is going to take 3 years to develop, when you can take someone who can contribute right away. He has a LONGGGG way to go to even be a starter in this league. I don't see how anyone can say that Bosh, Wade, or Melo would not have made Detroit a better team. Granted, they won the title, but Darko had nothing to do with it. Bad pick.


when they picked him, they didnt expect him to help out this year, they feel he will be more help to the team 3-4 years down the road than anyone except lebron


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## Moe The Bartender

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> Moe, you better close you eyes for the next few drafts. Most rookies won't be worth a darn, but prospects, third, and fourth year players will. You'll have to be patient, i.e. Kwame. Even Curry hasn't been bad for a 20-yr old, though he needs to work harder.
> 
> How could Darko fool Dumars?
> 
> They saw him workout, they saw him play in Europe, they knew he was a project, they had no problem taking another foreigner (Delfino), etc.


Joke, you need to "open" yours. Why take a project with the #2 pick, when there are players who can help right away? Makes no sense to me. We obviously disagree...I won't change my mind and you won't change yours.


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## RP McMurphy

I bet Dallas feels terrible for taking Dirk ahead of guys who could contribute right away.


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## LionsFan01

I think it's hilarious that so many people are still calling Darko a bad pick even after the Pistons won the championship. People say you don't pick a "project" player with the #2 overall pick, but when your roster already inlcudes guys like Billups, Hamilton, and Wallace and you just went to the Eastern Conference Finals, I don't see why not. People also don't look at the big picture when analyzing picks. If Detroit had picked Melo, would they have won it all? I honestly don't think so. Yes he's a better offensive player than Prince but he's definitely not the defender Prince is and Detroit won the championship because of their defense. Also, Melo would have been taking shots away from Billups and Hamilton on offense. Besides, Detroit got their SF later in the draft when they picked Delfino. Wing players who can put up 20 ppg are a dime a dozen but dominant inside players aren't and when you find someone who can potentially be that, you take him.


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## "Matt!"

> Originally posted by <b>Moe The Bartender</b>!
> 
> 
> Joke, you need to "open" yours. Why take a project with the #2 pick, when there are players who can help right away? Makes no sense to me. We obviously disagree...I won't change my mind and you won't change yours.


If you're already an established team, with great team chemistry, and a group of guys who already buy into a system that includes team play and balanced scoring into it, why would you want to draft a guy who isn't a great team or individual defender, and demands the ball on offense? 

Carmelo would not be as good in Detroit as he was in Denver, simply because Larry Brown would make him play defense EVERY possession, and wouldn't feed him iso's the whole game on offense. Just think about that, how many times have Ben, Tayshaun, Chauncy, and Rip taken possessions off on D this year? Not too many. How many iso's that weren't off severe mismatches have you seen Larry Brown call this year? Probably even fewer.

People are saying that if Carmelo is still better than Darko in 4 years then the pick was wrong, but I'd take a very good big man giving me 17-8 over a better wing player giving me 25-6 anyday. Big men with talent, athleticism, and the knowledge that Darko will pick up are very rare in today's game.


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## jokeaward

There isn't really a reason to doubt Dumars picked the BPA and does a fine job as an exec, but...

Let's look at their "other options".

Camelo - Dynamic scorer. Good rebounder and passer. Larry Brown is friends with Jim Boeheim, so as if Dumars couldn't evaluate Anthony from his college carweer, he got info right from his coach once Larry was hired. He probably needs the ball in his hands to excel. Not a great defender.

Bosh - Skinny, tall, and young like Darko, but more NBA-ready. Good rebounder and scorer. Future star.

Wade - Tremendous promise, but Detroit has its PG and SG. Maybe he could add depth and even challenge Chauncey.

You take a big man if you can; they'll get you rings. Hakeem, Duncan, Robinson, O'Neal, Mchale, Parish, Kareem. Sometimes a guard-led team works like the Bulls, sometimes it doesn't quite get the title like Clyde's Blazers.

Darko was very young to draft. Detroit will have to wait for him. Who cares if he contributes? Carmelo had a great rookie year, but they drafted him for the whole of his career. If they got 17 wins again they'd still be looking forward to that, only with a worse season and a higher draft pick.

There has to be something about Darko. Ivan Chiriaev entered the draft as a young, young player and got laughed out. Darko got Dumars to pick him at #2.


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## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Why would anyone be a "flip-flopper" at this point? What great performances has Milicic turned in that would make a doubter suddenly "flip-flop" into a believer?
> 
> Yes, I, for one, am believing the scouts. As did all the NBA franchises, as far as I heard...he was supposedly the unanimous number 2 pick.


Hmm, you're right. I guess I did misphrase. I'll correct myself. If you're saying things like "The Darko pick was a great move," you've either A) always just believed whatever the scouts told us, or you're B) a flip-flopper who has decided now to start believing the scouts. Though, you're right, nobody would fall under B, my mistake.

But, onto your post. You believe the scouts. The same scouts who fall in love with any 18 year old kid with long arms? I don't know, man. Not everyone can be a star in the league. I was under the impression that this guy was such a phenom, there would be at least *one* point in the season where I would think, "Sheesh, if Darko can just get X and Y under control, he's going to be a force." Instead, the first thing I think of when I think of Darko was that pitiful display earlier in the season where he blew a dunk and then slouched over as if God was picking on him, instead of going for the rebound.



> Evaluating as a mistake a situation that has yet to resolve its self one way or the other makes no sense. Tracy McGrady was deemed a bust two seasons into his career. I imagine you would have cut him loose, as a 'mistake,' and never looked back.
> 
> There's no need to try and convince you with "But Wiggum..." arguments. There are a number of reasons why Milicic was the right pick and still continues to be the right pick, but you've made up your mind based on about 20 minutes of total play at age 18.


I'm *not* saying Darko is a bust. I thought people might interpret what I wrote that way, but I left my post the way I did anyway. What I'm asking is, how on earth can anyone be truly excited about Darko when he looks absolutely *awful* out there? He's young, yes. I realize that. But... everyone was young at some point. Even busts (not that I'm saying he is one).

Luke Walton was a much better player this season that Darko Milicic. Why wasn't Luke Walton drafted before Darko? Well, the answer to that is easy; the scouts saw that Darko had skills that Walton, a more polished player, didn't have. Or rather, that Darko had the 'potential' to develop skills that the scouts felt that Walton didn't have the 'potential' to develop. See, doesn't that just sound like a bunch of crap to you? It certainly does to me. How could these scouts possibly know what such an unpolished, raw, inexperienced player is going to be capable of 4 or 5 years down the road? I don't think they can, at least not nearly as well as they say they can. Maybe we're all thinking about this a little too hard. Maybe (just maybe) Luke Walton played better than Darko because Luke Walton is just a better player than Darko. We don't know how good Darko is going to be, but doesn't it seem like backwards logic to assume that Darko will be a better player than Walton even though by every possible statistical measure (and our own eyes), Walton is clearly better, and has been for several years?

Tyson Chandler was drafted #2 overall. #2! And then he was traded for Elton Brand, a surefire 20-10 guy. Even if Tyson Chandler goes on to be a 25-15 guy (which, who knows? he might, he might not, that's my exact point), it's *still* one of the most asinine moves in the history of the NBA draft. The Bulls traded a top-tier big man in the league for a player they _believed_ might one day become... a top-tier big man in the league. What kind of idiotic logic is that?

I'm going to paste in an excerpt from a scouting report (I try to read them for all the big names before the draft).

_At just 18, is one of the top overall prospects in Europe. Very precocious feel for the game. Excels in many aspects. Can shoot from long range, battles for rebounds. Struggles defensively, but just needs time to develop his strength. Has very good agility and can run the floor. Great offensive touch. Could grow another few inches. Talk in Europe is that he will be better than Pau Gasol. Will probably end up at 7-1._

This is describing Nikoloz Tskitishvili. "Excels in many aspects"? "Better than Pau Gasol"? Hey, Skeeta might grow up to be a great player in the NBA, but he has done exactly... not a damned thing in the league so far. Why should we give him the benefit of the doubt when he's given us nothing to hang our hats on?

Still, the Nuggets should keep Skeeta and the Pistons should keep Darko and the Bulls should keep Tyson Chandler and hope they develop into jewels. I just don't see a reason why I should believe they absolutely won't end up like James Lang or Leon Smith, because we don't know (while, going back to my original argument, with Carmelo, we had a much better idea).


----------



## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Why would anyone be a "flip-flopper" at this point? What great performances has Milicic turned in that would make a doubter suddenly "flip-flop" into a believer?
> 
> Yes, I, for one, am believing the scouts. As did all the NBA franchises, as far as I heard...he was supposedly the unanimous number 2 pick.
> 
> 
> 
> Evaluating as a mistake a situation that has yet to resolve its self one way or the other makes no sense. Tracy McGrady was deemed a bust two seasons into his career. I imagine you would have cut him loose, as a 'mistake,' and never looked back.
> 
> There's no need to try and convince you with "But Wiggum..." arguments. There are a number of reasons why Milicic was the right pick and still continues to be the right pick, but you've made up your mind based on about 20 minutes of total play at age 18.


BEST.POST.THISWEEK.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

Prep to pro dud Tracy Mcgrady.


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## chibullsno23

jw if neone else noticed wat i saw. My friends and I were watching NBA Hangtime and the announcers were courtside. The pistons were behind them shooting around. we were shocked to see darko start from one side of the basket, double clutch, hang in the air until he was on the other side and did an awesome one handed dunk.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> There's no need to try and convince you with "But Wiggum..." arguments. There are a number of reasons why Milicic was the right pick and still continues to be the right pick, but you've made up your mind based on about 20 minutes of total play at age 18.


I'm in fact the one who is *not* making up his mind and deciding I know what Darko Milicic is or is not capable of. I'm saying we don't know; that's my whole point. Why take something unsure when you can take something sure? Joe Dumars couldn't have possibly known about Rasheed Wallace's later availabilty at the time of the draft, and without Rasheed Wallace that Pistons team was not championship caliber. He made up for his mistake by trading for Rasheed.

My opinion.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> Joe Dumars couldn't have possibly known about Rasheed Wallace's later availabilty at the time of the draft,


Actually theres a greater chance that he did know. Usually the players that are free agents who are expected to sign elsewhere in the offseason, are shopped before the trade deadline to see if the current team can get something in return instead of just losing a valuable player in the offseason with no compensation. 

It was pretty widely known at the time of last years draft, that there was a good chance Rasheed Wallace would be traded before the trade deadline. 

A lot of teams are usually interested as well, either for the temporary help they'll get come playoff time (like in the Pistons case) or because its a large expiring contract which frees up cap space in the summer.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Actually theres a greater chance that he did know. Usually the players that are free agents who are expected to sign elsewhere in the offseason, are shopped before the trade deadline to see if the current team can get something in return instead of just losing a valuable player in the offseason with no compensation.
> 
> It was pretty widely known at the time of last years draft, that there was a good chance Rasheed Wallace would be traded before the trade deadline.
> 
> A lot of teams are usually interested as well, either for the temporary help they'll get come playoff time (like in the Pistons case) or because its a large expiring contract which frees up cap space in the summer.


So Joe Dumars' logic was, "I'll draft Darko Milicic, pass up on Carmelo, but it's OK because right before the trade deadline I'll trade for Rasheed Wallace." Come on, man.

Last summer, Joe Dumars had a good team. He had an opportunity to make it better by drafting Carmelo Anthony. He didn't do it. I think he should have, since there's no way he could have specifically known he would have exactly what a cellar team would want for their star around the trade deadline and if he hadn't done one of those two things, the Pistons wouldn't have had a realistic shot at the title.

Again, my opinion.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>chibullsno23</b>!
> jw if neone else noticed wat i saw. My friends and I were watching NBA Hangtime and the announcers were courtside. The pistons were behind them shooting around. we were shocked to see darko start from one side of the basket, double clutch, hang in the air until he was on the other side and did an awesome one handed dunk.


This sounds interesting, but could you rewrite it, I can't understand you.


----------



## "Matt!"

> Originally posted by <b>chibullsno23</b>!
> jw if neone else noticed wat i saw. My friends and I were watching NBA Hangtime and the announcers were courtside. The pistons were behind them shooting around. we were shocked to see darko start from one side of the basket, double clutch, hang in the air until he was on the other side and did an awesome one handed dunk.


REWRITTEN: I watched NBA Hangtime one time, and the hosts were on the court while the Pistons were shooting around. Then Darko started from one side of the basket, double-pumped, remained in the air while going underneath the basketb, and one-handed dunked on the opposite side of the basket.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> So Joe Dumars' logic was, "I'll draft Darko Milicic, pass up on Carmelo, but it's OK because right before the trade deadline I'll trade for Rasheed Wallace." Come on, man.
> 
> Last summer, Joe Dumars had a good team. He had an opportunity to make it better by drafting Carmelo Anthony. He didn't do it. I think he should have, since there's no way he could have specifically known he would have exactly what a cellar team would want for their star around the trade deadline and if he hadn't done one of those two things, the Pistons wouldn't have had a realistic shot at the title.
> 
> Again, my opinion.


The fact is, many GMs knew Rasheed would be shopped, and Joe Dumars ended up with him. The Pistons won the title, Darko is still every bit of the prospect he was projected to be. 

If Carmelo ends up being better than Darko for their careers, then you have a point. It would be a bad pick by Dumars. 

I cant say Joe Dumars had it all planned like that, but you also cant say for sure that it wasnt his plan, because Rasheeds situation wasnt a complete surprise, it was expected by most fans who are familiar with the salary cap and trade deadlines, etc.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> The fact is, many GMs knew Rasheed would be shopped, and Joe Dumars ended up with him. The Pistons won the title, Darko is still every bit of the prospect he was projected to be.
> 
> If Carmelo ends up being better than Darko for their careers, then you have a point. It would be a bad pick by Dumars.
> 
> I cant say Joe Dumars had it all planned like that, but you also cant say for sure that it wasnt his plan, because Rasheeds situation wasnt a complete surprise, it was expected by most fans who are familiar with the salary cap and trade deadlines, etc.


Joe Dumars did not know he was going to get Rasheed Wallace at the trade deadline. Period. There's no possible way he could have known confidently he would definitely have been shopped (what if the Blazers had a good season?), let alone whether or not Rasheed would have been good enough to make it worthwhile, let alone whether he had players he was willing to give and the Blazers were willing to take in exchange for him. Hell, the Blazers traded him all right, but to Atlanta.

I guess I'm in the minority here, but by "right decision" I mean "the decision which, given the circumstances and making reasonable assumptions about the future, is thought at the time of the decision to have the most positive effect". So I don't see why the Pistons winning the championship is relevant unless Joe Dumars somehow knew they would, which he couldn't have possibly known. Nobody at that time thought the Pistons were going to win the NBA championship. They were one of those teams that was one good player away from being a real threat. If the Lakers had the #2 pick and drafted Darko, I still wouldn't have agreed (reasons given in my first post on this thread), but I would have at least understood, since they clearly didn't "need" Carmelo to win the NBA championship, or so we would have *all* thought at the time.

Were Gary Payton's and Karl Malone's decisions to go to the Lakers "wrong"? Would it have been "right" for them to decide to go to the Pistons? No, that would have been the wrong decision. They wanted to win a ring, and *at that time* every indication pointed towards going to the Lakers to do that. That's what made the most sense, so that's the right decision. The fact that they were unsuccessful doesn't change the fact that it was the right decision given the circumstances.

I know its not how most people think, but its what makes sense to me. Again, my opinion.


----------



## sportsfan

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> What do critics say now that the Pistons won the title? Should they still have taken Carmelo? You can't make the argument that they need him to help them "win now." Do you still think it was the wrong pick?
> 
> Just curious. I think Detroit winning now may be cause to retrospectively change the way we looked at the draft.


Sorry if this was already mentioned, but something to take into consideration is that most teams that pick at #2 need all the help they can get. Detroit had the luxury of not needing it. It's not very often that you'll find a championship-cliber team picking #2.


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## Snicka

I don't understand why people still argue about this. That #2 was just gravy for this team. Why not go for a high risk, high reward big man??? He might pan out or he might not, but the Pistons were playing with house money and they wanted to try and break the bank.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> But, onto your post. You believe the scouts. The same scouts who fall in love with any 18 year old kid with long arms? I don't know, man. Not everyone can be a star in the league.


Scouts are rarely so in agreement over players and when they are, they are usually right. They always seem to like the possibilities of a long 18-year old, sure, but they don't predict future superstardom for all of them.

They made such claims about guys like Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, LeBron James and Darko Milicic.

They weren't so unanimous about Eddy Curry or Tyson Chandler...they just felt both players had potentially high ceilings. But no guarantees.



> What I'm asking is, how on earth can anyone be truly excited about Darko when he looks absolutely *awful* out there? He's young, yes. I realize that. But... everyone was young at some point.


Yes...and every young player (except James) looked lost out there at some point. Jermaine O'Neal looked like he didn't have a clue in the limited minutes the Blazers gave him, which caused them to make a large mistake with him. Kobe Bryant constantly seemed like a great athlete lacking the basketball IQ to play at a high level, in his rookie season.



> Luke Walton was a much better player this season that Darko Milicic. Why wasn't Luke Walton drafted before Darko? Well, the answer to that is easy; the scouts saw that Darko had skills that Walton, a more polished player, didn't have. Or rather, that Darko had the 'potential' to develop skills that the scouts felt that Walton didn't have the 'potential' to develop. See, doesn't that just sound like a bunch of crap to you?


It doesn't sound at all like a bunch of crap to me. Luke Walton is considerably older, which means he's much closer to "what you see is what you get." He'll improve, but is unlikely to show any new abilities or improve any one ability tremendously.

You're a baseball guy: why was Miguel Cabrera so much more highly regarded than players doing similar things last year? Cabrera was surely no superstar last season, not even reaching .800 OPS. Yet, he's considered the hottest young superstar-to-be in baseball. It's because he showed off tremendous skills at the tender age of 19. All skills that should improve (and using models for prior athletes and the way they improved, as a group, you can create pretty decent future models).

Similarly, Darko Milicic has shown scouts a variety of skills rare in a big man (post skills along with perimeter skills) and well-developed _for a 17-year old_, which scouts have some ability to extrapolate, unless you believe scouts are nothing more than random people paid to do the job. It's unlikely men good enough at business to be as rich as owners are would employ people who bring zero value.

Should you believe anything a scout says as gospel? Of course not. Like any expert in any field, their predictive value has a range of error *especially individually*. When a group of experts come together to make a prediction, however, you cut that range of error down tremendously.

That's why I trust near- or total-unanimity from scouts, whereas I'm perfectly willing to be skeptical of what any particular scout says (I read one scouting report that said Qyntel Woods had a talent level up with LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony...individuals can be wrong, very wrong).


----------



## mo76

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> See, I just don't see why people love Darko so much. He looks awful and totally lost on the floor. I haven't see him do a single thing all season where I think "Hmm, good play."
> 
> I guess I just don't understand scouts' obsession with totally raw players; players who absolutely cannot contribute to an NBA game. "But Wiggum, Darko's different. He could develop into a truly dominant big man." Yeah, just like Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry, Nikoloz Tskitishvili, Kwame Brown, and DeSagana Diop, all of whom the same scouts loved. Not to mention Kendrick Perkins, James Lang and Ndudi Ebi, who contributed absolutely nothing to their teams in their rookie years. Lang never even made a NBA roster.
> 
> If you say things like "I've always thought the Darko pick was a great move," you're either a flip-flopper or you're blindly believing the scouts, because nothing we fans have seen this season has indicated at all that Darko even deserves a roster spot next year. At the time of last year's draft, we knew nothing of Darko, other than the fact that he had just finished a season for Hemofarm in which he averaged 9.5 points, 4.6 rebounds, and 0.7 assists per game. Meanwhile, Carmelo Anthony was the best player on a NCAA championship team. Oh yeah, and at the time, the Pistons biggest weakness was scoring at the forward position.
> 
> The Pistons should have taken Carmelo, period. The fact that this mistake did not end up costing them doesn't change the fact that it was still a mistake. That's like saying Ben Wallace's 3 point attempt in game 5 wasn't a stupid thing to do because of the fact that they won the game anyway. It didn't cost the Pistons the game, mainly because it was in the 4th quarter and Detroit had a huge lead, but it was still not a smart basketball thing to do. Neither was drafting Darko.


Great Post!

BRAVO:yes:


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm in fact the one who is *not* making up his mind and deciding I know what Darko Milicic is or is not capable of. I'm saying we don't know; that's my whole point.


Calling it a "mistake" or "stupid basketball play" on the level of Ben Wallace shooting a three seems like a made-up mind.

But I'd agree with you if you're taking the position, "We don't know." I don't think anyone is saying we *do* know for sure.



> Why take something unsure when you can take something sure?


When the "unsure asset" could prove to be much, much more valuable than the "sure asset." All futures are graphed on on an axis of risk and reward. Risk and reward often go together, but you do have to pay attention to both. Anthony has lesser risk, but many believe Milicic has greater reward.




> Joe Dumars couldn't have possibly known about Rasheed Wallace's later availabilty at the time of the draft, and without Rasheed Wallace that Pistons team was not championship caliber. He made up for his mistake by trading for Rasheed.


I agree with both your belief that Dumars couldn't have known Wallace would be available and that Wallace made Detroit championship-caliber.

I disagree with your contention that drafting Milicic was a mistake that needed making up for. And I'd throw in one more contention: Carmelo Anthony, rather than Rasheed Wallace, would not have made Detroit championship-caliber.

So, Wallace didn't make up for a deficiency that Dumars created by not drafting Anthony. He made up for a deficiency that Detroit had regardless and independantly happened to take the riskier, higher-upside prospect instead of the less risky, lower-upside prospect.


----------



## Yyzlin

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Yes...and every young player (except James) looked lost out there at some point. Jermaine O'Neal looked like he didn't have a clue in the limited minutes the Blazers gave him, which caused them to make a large mistake with him. Kobe Bryant constantly seemed like a great athlete lacking the basketball IQ to play at a high level, in his rookie season.


Yes, but there are varying degrees of "lost". Milicic's performance in his rookie season was much worse than any other player who would eventually turn into an All-Star. He couldn't shoot at all (.261 FG%). He couldn't make FT's. He wasn't aggressive at all and for the most part seemed like a standerby watching the game, instead of playing in it. I still think he will turn out to be a servicable player, but I highly doubt he will turn into an perennial All-Star, or even *an* All-Star.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Calling it a "mistake" or "stupid basketball play" on the level of Ben Wallace shooting a three seems like a made-up mind.
> 
> But I'd agree with you if you're taking the position, "We don't know." I don't think anyone is saying we *do* know for sure.


All I'm really saying is that because he's so unsure, it was (in my opinion) a bad move. A very, unnecessarily risky move. While this move may or may not pay off, I just feel that drafting 17 year old players who have never on any professional level managed to score 10 points per game is not the way to run a franchise, especially when that franchise is on the cusp of championship run. It just seems way too risky to me, since players like that are so far away from what they will eventually become that, well, how can we know what they will become?

Even much more polished players sometimes just... don't pan out. What exactly caused Christian Laettner and Damon Stoudamire to have awesome rookie years and then get worse and worse? Who knows. A lot of it is (or seems to be) just being in the right place at the right time. That could have happened (and still could happen) to Carmelo Anthony but I (as a GM) would take much more comfort in taking Anthony because I know he's already a good player.

Miguel Cabrera is somewhat the same, but he actually has produced on professional levels. He hit .365 with power for the AA Carolina Mudcats at age 20, and had a pretty decent rookie year. He wasn't a great player for the Marlins, but I would have taken him for my team. He's not nearly as far from being a great player as Darko is. And picking Miguel Cabrera out of high school didn't have nearly as high an opportunity cost as drafting Darko #2 overall, since there are some 60 odd rounds in the MLB draft.



> I disagree with your contention that drafting Milicic was a mistake that needed making up for. And I'd throw in one more contention: Carmelo Anthony, rather than Rasheed Wallace, would not have made Detroit championship-caliber.
> 
> So, Wallace didn't make up for a deficiency that Dumars created by not drafting Anthony. He made up for a deficiency that Detroit had regardless and independantly happened to take the riskier, higher-upside prospect instead of the less risky, lower-upside prospect.


Well, they certainly could have used his scoring. And they still could have been players at the trade deadline if he didn't work out. And it's not like Carmelo is a chopped liver prospect either; he *was* a 20-10 guy on an NCAA championship team with guard-like skills. That sounds like a pretty hot commodity to me. I mean, this would be different if we were arguing whether or not the Pistons should have drafted... I don't know, Jarvis Hayes. If that were my other option, even I would say "Aww, **** it, let's just go for Darko and see what happens."


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## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> Yes, but there are varying degrees of "lost". Milicic's performance in his rookie season was much worse than any other player who would eventually turn into an All-Star. He couldn't shoot at all (.261 FG%). He couldn't make FT's. He wasn't aggressive at all and for the most part seemed like a standerby watching the game, instead of playing in it. I still think he will turn out to be a servicable player, but I highly doubt he will turn into an perennial All-Star, or even *an* All-Star.


Nice analogy seeing as he only took 65 shots in 34 games. That's like what, two games worth of total shots for Kobe?    

Why don't you wait to see him get none garbage minutes and actually get into a flow.


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## rainman

if there ever was a poster child for the need for a minor league system it was darko. the worst part of it is he ends up with larry brown who has no time for babysitting rookies, especially ones from europe. i think the logic behind the pick was good and it didnt hurt them because they won it all. we'll have to see 3 years from now whether it was the right move in the end. darko right now looks terribly raw out there. as for what he did or didnt do this year i dont think his minutes meant anything being they were pretty much in a mop up role. the few times i saw him play against, yao,divac and radmonovic he actually looked good. i guess larry didnt want to trust him to do anything against american players. i havent been able to figure that one out.


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## "Matt!"

Think about it this way: Darko doesn't turn 19 until this Sunday. Conceivably, he could have been playing high school ball in America this year, and dominated totally, and been thought of as the next KG or J'Neal.

Amare was playing high school ball up until he was 20 I believe. 

LET'S LET THE KID GROW UP!

You get ripped from your country to go play in a place where you don't even speak the language, as a kid that's gotta be pretty intimidating.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> Yes, but there are varying degrees of "lost". Milicic's performance in his rookie season was much worse than any other player who would eventually turn into an All-Star. He couldn't shoot at all (.261 FG%). He couldn't make FT's. He wasn't aggressive at all and for the most part seemed like a standerby watching the game, instead of playing in it. I still think he will turn out to be a servicable player, but I highly doubt he will turn into an perennial All-Star, or even *an* All-Star.


He played 4.7 minutes per game, and a total of 159 minutes in 34 games.

The words "insufficient sample size" come to mind.

Jermaine O'Neal, by comparison, had 10.2 minutes per game, and 459 minutes in 45 games during his rookie season. Yet he seemed never used.

In their rookie campaigns, Kobe Bryant had 15.5 minutes per game and 1101 minutes in 71 games while Tracy McGrady had 18.4 minutes per game and 1178 minutes in 64 games.

So, Milicic got by far the fewest minutes and looked the most lost. Jermaine O'Neal got the second-fewest minutes of these highly-touted prospects and looked the second-most lost.

Missing free throws and the like surely point to stress or lack of self-confidence. Milicic supposedly graded out very well in shooting the ball, so missed free throws and easy jumpers missed hardly show his true ability.


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## BULLS23

*Darko*

People, we are forgetting that the overall #2 was basically a throw-away from an old trade. They could afford to take a flyer on a project. Would we be having this conversation if Darko were an American High Schooler? I think he's going to be very good, learning from Elden, Ben, Sheed, and even some moves from Okur will be good for him.


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## ian

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>While this move may or may not pay off, I just feel that drafting 17 year old players who have never on any professional level managed to score 10 points per game is not the way to run a franchise, especially when that franchise is on the cusp of championship run.


http://www.nebl.com/index.php?fuseaction=playersview.stats&id=469
14 ppg in 22 mpg?


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## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>ian</b>!
> 
> 
> http://www.nebl.com/index.php?fuseaction=playersview.stats&id=469
> 14 ppg in 22 mpg?


Oh for God's sake...  

I was using nbadraft.net's information when I wrote that he had never scored 10 points per game.

http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/darkomilicic.htm

But upon further investigation, yes, Darko Milicic did score 14.2 points per game over 10 games in the North European Basketball League. So yes, Ian, the wise Pistons fan, you have disproven me and my whole argument that Darko Milicic has had an unspectacular professional history. Thank you for showing me the light, and thank you so very much for your half-sentence meant to discredit the several longs posts I have carefully written to try to articulate my point. Thank you.


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## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh for God's sake...
> 
> I was using nbadraft.net's information when I wrote that he had never scored 10 points per game.
> 
> http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/darkomilicic.htm
> 
> But upon further investigation, yes, Darko Milicic did score 14.2 points per game over 10 games in the North European Basketball League. So yes, Ian, the wise Pistons fan, you have disproven me and my whole argument that Darko Milicic has had an unspectacular professional history. Thank you for showing me the light, and thank you so very much for your half-sentence meant to discredit the several longs posts I have carefully written to try to articulate my point. Thank you.


I will refer you to my earlier post in and wait for an answer. Again.


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## Wiggum

*Re: Darko*



> Originally posted by <b>BULLS23</b>!
> People, we are forgetting that the overall #2 was basically a throw-away from an old trade. They could afford to take a flyer on a project. Would we be having this conversation if Darko were an American High Schooler? I think he's going to be very good, learning from Elden, Ben, Sheed, and even some moves from Okur will be good for him.


No, I'm not forgetting that the Pistons got the pick from the Grizzlies. And yes, we would still be having this discussion if Darko Milicic were American.


----------



## ian

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh for God's sake...
> 
> I was using nbadraft.net's information when I wrote that he had never scored 10 points per game.
> 
> http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/darkomilicic.htm
> 
> But upon further investigation, yes, Darko Milicic did score 14.2 points per game over 10 games in the North European Basketball League. So yes, Ian, the wise Pistons fan, you have disproven me and my whole argument that Darko Milicic has had an unspectacular professional history. Thank you for showing me the light, and thank you so very much for your half-sentence meant to discredit the several longs posts I have carefully written to try to articulate my point. Thank you.


It was more to demonstrate the lack of playing time youngsters get in Europe. Darko has been playing professionally since he was 14, if he wasn't worth a top draft pick he'd have been found out by now. All your sarcasm and invective doesn't change that you were wrong - take it like an adult.


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## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> Nice analogy seeing as he only took 65 shots in 34 games. That's like what, two games worth of total shots for Kobe?
> 
> Why don't you wait to see him get none garbage minutes and actually get into a flow.


This one?

I didn't respond to this post, on purpose, because there's nothing really to respond to, and it wasn't even directed at me. But what the hell, if you really want a response that badly, I'll give my thoughts on that.

He's looked awful. Period. *Awful.* If minutes played are what's causing that, then he's not nearly as much of a project as you're all claiming. He sucks right now, that's why he looks awful, and that's also why he gets no minutes.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>ian</b>!
> It was more to demonstrate the lack of playing time youngsters get in Europe. Darko has been playing professionally since he was 14, if he wasn't worth a top draft pick he'd have been found out by now. All your sarcasm and invective doesn't change that you were wrong - take it like an adult.


No, it was to split hairs. My point was that he has had an unspectular career so far, and he has. Making a half-sentence post like "14 ppg in 22 mpg?" to me reads "Wiggum, you're a jerk. I'm gonna get you on a technicality to make you look stupid," rather than "Wiggum, I disagree with your assertion and I'd like to give you my reasons why I disagree," as posters like Minstrel have done on this thread.


----------



## ian

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> No, it was to split hairs. My point was that he has had an unspectular career so far, and he has. Making a half-sentence post like "14 ppg in 22 mpg?" to me reads "Wiggum, you're a jerk. I'm gonna get you on a technicality to make you look stupid," rather than "Wiggum, I disagree with your assertion and I'd like to give you my reasons why I disagree," as posters like Minstrel have done on this thread.


Or I was disagreeing with a major part of your argument, which was that Darko has never put up solid numbers anywhere, and nothing more...

Darko had 14 ppg in 22 mpg last year in Europe.
Carmelo had 22.7 ppg in 36.4 mpg last year at Syracuse.

Extrapolating, Darko would have had 23.2 ppg in 36.4 mpg. Is that a sure-fire way to measure Darko? Of course not. But it certainly is different from what you first said, which is all I was taking issue with. I don't think it's wrong to point out a mistake.


----------



## Yyzlin

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> He played 4.7 minutes per game, and a total of 159 minutes in 34 games.
> 
> The words "insufficient sample size" come to mind.


Perhaps, but it isn't as if these are minutes bunched together where hot or cold streaks would predominate. These are minutes spread over a season. 



> Jermaine O'Neal, by comparison, had 10.2 minutes per game, and 459 minutes in 45 games during his rookie season. Yet he seemed never used.
> 
> In their rookie campaigns, Kobe Bryant had 15.5 minutes per game and 1101 minutes in 71 games while Tracy McGrady had 18.4 minutes per game and 1178 minutes in 64 games.
> 
> So, Milicic got by far the fewest minutes and looked the most lost. Jermaine O'Neal got the second-fewest minutes of these highly-touted prospects and looked the second-most lost.


Or perhaps O'Neal simply isn't the caliber of player that Bryant and McGrady are. And perhaps Milicic isn't the player that any of the aforementioned three are. Plus, if you look at O'Neal's per 48 minute stats for his rookie year, they actually compare favorably with Bryant and McGrady's per 48 minute stats. Milicic's, on the other hand, do not fare so well. 



> Missing free throws and the like surely point to stress or lack of self-confidence. Milicic supposedly graded out very well in shooting the ball, so missed free throws and easy jumpers missed hardly show his true ability.


Well, I would assume that you would know your role by the end of the year. I could understand game jitters in your first month or so in the NBA, but if you still are afraid and rushing shots after a year of playing in garbage time against other end of the bench players, you have to wonder if he has the mentality to succeed. It isn't just that he's missing shots. He's missing shots BAD.


----------



## PacersguyUSA

If the Pistons drafted Anthony, they at least would have benefitted a whole lot more from jersey sales and the like.


----------



## thekid

Why didn't they just leave him in Europe for a year or two?


----------



## Baron Davis

Darko ONLY averaged 14 PPG, in his own league with his *own* kind of people, which doesn't really seem like potential. IMO, you tend to play tougher and harder against people of your own kind without intimidation, as opposed to playing in the NBA with people of all different kinds of races who could intimidate you or people who are more emotional than you. I'm pretty sure if Darko played at Syracuse he wouldn't average nearly as much as his own league. 

Just a thought, IMO drafting a Euro from their own league is pretty risky.

I totally agree with everyone who said that Darko did not look good out there this season and the playoffs when he missed his freethrows and his shots. That does not show any potential.


----------



## Johnny Mac

In Darko, I see a guy who is a legit seven footer with unbelievable athleticism at his size, and unbelievable skills as well. Ben Wallace has had a ton of praise for the kid, and Darko has been using Big Bens workout routine for awhile now. Ben Wallace, one of the few true models of work ethic, has said that Darko works incredibly hard. Darko has the tools to be a Kevin Garnett crossed with Dirk Nowitski crossed with Andrei Kirilenko crossed with Hakeem Olajuwon. Of course it will be very difficult for him to ever match Hakeems legacy, but I'm talking in terms of style of play. I truly believe Darko will win atleast 1-2 MVPs in his career though. 

I look for Darko to step into Mehmet Okurs role next season, and year by year he will work his way up to being Detriots franchise guy. Darko has a higher ceiling than any player in this class.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> Darko ONLY averaged 14 PPG, in his own league with his *own* kind of people, which doesn't really seem like potential. IMO, you tend to play tougher and harder against people of your own kind without intimidation, as opposed to playing in the NBA with people of all different kinds of races who could intimidate you or people who are more emotional than you. I'm pretty sure if Darko played at Syracuse he wouldn't average nearly as much as his own league.


European leagues are considered higher level than US college basketball. Also, Darko Milicic was 16-17 when he did that...at the same age, Carmelo Anthony was playing in high school, which is *far* below the level of competition of European leagues.

And how was Anthony not playing his "own kind of people"? American high school and college basketball players are pretty similar...as similar as European league players are to each other.

Also, saying Darko had "his own league" is just meaningless rhetoric. You act like it was a league his dad created just for him where everyone played him gently and referees cheated for him. It makes about as much sense to say Carmelo Anthony played in "his own university system."


----------



## jokeaward

KG wouldn't look nearly as good if he couldn't start. He's got that whole ritual.

Why are we expecting Darko to produce after abruptly entering games in garbage time?

Seome players just do better when they start or get decent minutes. Chris Crawford, Jason Collier, Brian Cardinal, Etan Thomas, etc.


----------



## Nevus

I saw some footage of Pistons practices on TV earlier and saw Darko running the floor... it got me thinking. He runs the floor like Samuel Dalembert... you know what I mean, very fluid and natural for a guy that tall. But in the garbage minutes he gets, he never gets to do that. When he comes into the game up 17 points with 2:12 left, the Pistons are not looking to push the ball. 

Fast break baskets are a big source of confidence for young players. But he's never had an opportunity to play that kind of game.

On the rare occasion that he gets the ball, they just feed it to him in the post and everyone knows that he's looking to shoot it. Sometimes he even gets double teamed. He's almost set up to fail in those situations.

How often do you see an offense running in rhythm during garbage time?

That's why I think you'll see a different Darko when he starts to get quality minutes. He won't have to look to shoot every time he posts up, and he'll be able to finish the fast break.

Obviously he does have to work on his rebounding and boxing out. But I think those things will come easier when he has a chance to get into the flow of the game.


----------



## NugzFan

this thread is way too long. it only requires 2 words...

thanks joe.

done and done. :yes:


----------



## Johnny Mac

Did Darko play at all in the summer leagues or preseason? It seems odd that no one has seen this kid play except for those real familiar with the league he played in before. 

I kind of hope we get to see him play some in the summer leagues and preseason upcoming. Then atleast we could determine his style of play, where he likes to play on the court, his dimeanor, all the little things whether positive or negative, etc.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> In Darko, I see a guy who is a legit seven footer with unbelievable athleticism at his size, and unbelievable skills as well. Ben Wallace has had a ton of praise for the kid, and Darko has been using Big Bens workout routine for awhile now. Ben Wallace, one of the few true models of work ethic, has said that Darko works incredibly hard. Darko has the tools to be a Kevin Garnett crossed with Dirk Nowitski crossed with Andrei Kirilenko crossed with Hakeem Olajuwon. Of course it will be very difficult for him to ever match Hakeems legacy, but I'm talking in terms of style of play. I truly believe Darko will win atleast 1-2 MVPs in his career though.
> 
> I look for Darko to step into Mehmet Okurs role next season, and year by year he will work his way up to being Detriots franchise guy. Darko has a higher ceiling than any player in this class.


See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. "I see a guy [with] unbelievable skills..." When? When at any point this year has Darko Milicic shown any of us that he even warrants a roster spot? I really just don't get where people come up with comments like this. If you were to say "The scouts have said he has 'unbelievable skills' and since Joe Dumars was persuaded enough to take him #2 overall I'm going to hold out on him," well, OK. I personally wouldn't be so optimistic, but I would at least understand your logic, and we could have a healthy debate about that. But to say, "I see a guy with unbelievable skills,"... no you don't. He's terrible.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. "I see a guy [with] unbelievable skills..." When? When at any point this year has Darko Milicic shown any of us that he even warrants a roster spot? I really just don't get where people come up with comments like this. If you were to say "The scouts have said he has 'unbelievable skills' and since Joe Dumars was persuaded enough to take him #2 overall I'm going to hold out on him," well, OK. I personally wouldn't be so optimistic, but I would at least understand your logic, and we could have a healthy debate about that. But to say, "I see a guy with unbelievable skills,"... no you don't. He's terrible.


I think you're getting too technical with the wording. The scouts were all amazed by Darkos ability, like Minstrel said, it was unanimous. I havent seen anything this year to disprove that, since he hasnt played much at all. I do see a guy who is over seven feet tall who moves better than almost every seven footer in the league, and I see a guy who has taken on Big Bens workout routine and bulked up a bit to gain strength, and I see a guy who _seems_ to be very fluid with his skills. The skills are the only question mark since he hasnt played much, but I get the feeling he has them based on how fluid hes been in the action I've seen. So to me, its not that he doesnt have skills, its that he is not getting the chance to use them. 

We'll see next year though, when we get the opportunity to watch him play more competitive minutes.


----------



## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. "I see a guy [with] unbelievable skills..." When? When at any point this year has Darko Milicic shown any of us that he even warrants a roster spot? I really just don't get where people come up with comments like this.


agreed. hell even skita showed SOMETHING his rookie year.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

Darko has shown flashes of talent you just have to be alert.


There was one game against the blazers he blocked a shot blazers got the offensive rebound and stepped out and guarded Dan Dickau. Pretty impressive for a 7 footer to D up a guard.

In game against Orlando he played I think over 10 minutes, he didn't get many plays run for him, but he crashed the boards big time, I know he had over 5.

Another game I forget which, at the side of the he backed down.. damn a good post defender too I don't remember, faked right, spun around and did a left hand hook which hit nothing but net, sheed went wild. 


Darko's had his flashes. In my opinion the only thing holding him back from really breaking out is his attitude.


I can't put my finger on it, but something isn't right there.


Oh and have you seen the Kid's physique?

He gained like 15-20 pounds of muscle!


----------



## "Matt!"

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Darko's had his flashes. In my opinion the only thing holding him back from really breaking out is his attitude.
> 
> 
> I can't put my finger on it, but something isn't right there.


He has ZERO confidence right now. I think when he missed that dunk it sunk his confidence from not playing even lower, and then he broke his hand in the brief playoff action he had. 

He needs to have a great summer league, he needs to get confidence with the ball in his hands, and learn how to play Piston defense. Hell, he can get by the first two if he really learns number three.


----------



## nmuman

Talking about Ben's workout routine. Darko was 7 foot 213 lbs when we drafted him.

He's now 7'1" 265!!!

I have heard people say he could eventually be 7'2"-7'3" and weigh over 300!!!


----------



## Nevus

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> Talking about Ben's workout routine. Darko was 7 foot 213 lbs when we drafted him.
> 
> He's now 7'1" 265!!!
> 
> I have heard people say he could eventually be 7'2"-7'3" and weigh over 300!!!


Are you sure about those numbers? I thought he was about 245 when he was drafted, which would mean he's gained about 15-20 pounds of muscle, which is about what some of the Pistons have said.


----------



## nmuman

Gaining weight doesn't just mean you are gaining muscle. And yes I messed up those numbers, he weighed about 240-245, sorry.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> In Darko, I see a guy who is a legit seven footer with unbelievable athleticism at his size, and unbelievable skills as well.


i'm confused as to how a guy who missed a wide-open dunk right under the basket has "unbelievable athleticism". jitters or not, you don't miss a dunk that my grandmother could make if you have "unbelievable athleticism".


----------



## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> i'm confused as to how a guy who missed a wide-open dunk right under the basket has "unbelievable athleticism". jitters or not, you don't miss a dunk that my grandmother could make if you have "unbelievable athleticism".


You're joking right? If you really believe that then you must be *edited: No personal attacks*


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> 
> You're joking right? If you really believe that then you must be *edited*.


that coming from the guy who thought darko went from weighing 215 to 265 in one season.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> i'm confused as to how a guy who missed a wide-open dunk right under the basket has "unbelievable athleticism". jitters or not, you don't miss a dunk that my grandmother could make if you have "unbelievable athleticism".


Kobe's missed simple, wide-open dunks. It happens...I don't think that precludes Bryant from having unbelievable athleticism.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe's missed simple, wide-open dunks. It happens...I don't think that precludes Bryant from having unbelievable athleticism.


when he was right under the basket, alone? i must have a different definition of "unbelievable", or something. unbelievable athleticism, to me, is a guy like lebron james or kevin garnett. you can say "darko is an athletic 7 footer", and i'd have no problem with that. but to say he has "unbelievable athleticism" is putting him on par with a KG or a lebron, and i'm pretty sure he's not that athletic.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> when he was right under the basket, alone?


On a break-away, totally unchallenged.



> i must have a different definition of "unbelievable", or something. unbelievable athleticism, to me, is a guy like lebron james or kevin garnett. you can say "darko is an athletic 7 footer", and i'd have no problem with that. but to say he has "unbelievable athleticism" is putting him on par with a KG or a lebron, and i'm pretty sure he's not that athletic.


It's all relative. Kevin Garnett doesn't have the athleticism of a Michael Jordan. He's just incredibly athletic for his size. I think when people say Milicic has "unbelievable athleticism," they mean for a 7-footer...not relative to Bryant or McGrady or Julius Erving.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> On a break-away, totally unchallenged.


yes, i remember that. however, kobe isn't a 7 footer. i mean... a 7 footer sitting right under the basket missing an open dunk? when do you ever hear of that? especially one with unbelievable athleticism. my whole problem is with the usage of the word "unbelievable". that's all. 



> It's all relative. Kevin Garnett doesn't have the athleticism of a Michael Jordan. He's just incredibly athletic for his size. I think when people say Milicic has "unbelievable athleticism," they mean for a 7-footer...not relative to Bryant or McGrady or Julius Erving.


well, KG is a 7 footer with unbelievable athleticism. darko is a 7 footer. so wouldn't saying that darko has unbelievable athleticism be putting him on par with KG in that area? perhaps i just haven't seen enough of darko, but from what i have seen, i have a hard time believing he's THAT athletic. he runs the floor nicely for a 7 footer and has hops, but "unbelievable athleticism"?. i think that's a stretch, especially since he's so young and still growing into his body. in 5 years, will he have unbelievable athleticism? perhaps. but right now? i just don't see it.

EDIT: also, when kobe missed the breakaway dunk, he actually got up high enough to dunk it. he simply threw it down on the rim instead of through it. just a mental mistake, it happens.

when darko missed the dunk, he was rejected by the rim. he didn't even get the ball up OVER the rim. what kind of 7 footer with unbelievable athleticism can't get the ball up over the rim when he's a foot away from the basket and all alone?


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> well, KG is a 7 footer with unbelievable athleticism. darko is a 7 footer. so wouldn't saying that darko has unbelievable athleticism be putting him on par with KG in that area?


I've heard that he's switched out on guards before and defended them competently. For a seven-footer, who also runs well and has very nice hops, that seems like a good basis for raves about athleticism.

Also, you might be trying to infuse a vague term like "unbelievable" with too much precision. There's no exact level of athleticism that "unbelievable" defines. Garnett and Milicic could both have "unbelievable" athleticism and Garnett could still simply be a bit more athletic. Or they could have different types of athleticism. Milicic may not be as good a run-jump athlete but be stronger (for the same age).

What little I've seen of him, he's got quite a burst...able to flash past defenders or break out on a fast break. He just seems unable to finish simple plays.


----------



## nmuman

*edited: If you have questions about moderation, contact the moderator in question or a community moderator about it. Don't repeat the edited comment in asking about it. Thanks*


----------



## MLKG

From the Chicago Pre-Draft Camp Last Year. Darko's athletic ability versus Carmello's.

Vertical Jump
Darko - 32.5 inches
Carmello - 33.5 inches

Bench Press Reps 185 Pounds 
Darko - 13
Carmello - 7

Lane Agility Test
Darko - 11.3 seconds
Carmello - 11.4seconds

3/4 Court Sprint
Darko - 3.36 seconds
Carmello - 3.15seconds

Can you see where people might have been a big impressed.

Darko is almost 7'1". Those are some crazy numbers for a guy his size. He hasn't shown a lot of his athleticism because he hasn't really gotten comfortable on the court, but by all acounts, it's there.


----------



## Red_Bandit

when adding muscle, especially the amount Darko added since he was drafted, does it affect the way you shoot?


i am not a basketball player but when i used to play in gym class, (before i started to lift weights) my shot was more fluid, but as i added muscle my shot was awful. Darko this year has been shooting poorly, could this be the reason?


----------



## AtomGreen

"I'd rather be a superstar on a losing team than a 6th man on a championship team" --Carmelo Anthony prior to the season beginning.

Why would Joe Dumars want an attitude like that on his roster? Some of you people are way too preoccupied with offensive statistics. A guy has to FIT on a team for it to be a successful relationship, and with a humble, veteran team like Detroit - an over-confident and brash personality like Carmelo's coming from a rookie wouldn't have been a very positive addition IMO.


----------



## The Mad Viking

I just WISH that Wiggum was the Piston's GM, in trade talks with Toronto.

:gopray:

Milicic will be a star. Minimum. Anyone who thinks the in-game samples you have seen are a good way to evaluate him, is sadly mistaken.


----------



## Baron Davis

Darko getting 1-2 MVPs? By the looks of things, there are other players who have shown much more potential than him in their rookie season(Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, Bosh, Hinrich). Also, 7-1 245 isn't much muscle, look at Ron Artest, he's 6'7 245, now there's some muscle. He is too weak to dominate the paint.


----------



## IAMGREAT

Darko has unbelieveable athelticism? Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I'm done. Darko is just stupid. He doesn't know what the hell he's doing. If he has so much skill and was supposedly so NBA ready, what happened? He's just an idiot.


----------



## "Matt!"

> Originally posted by <b>IAMGREAT</b>!
> Darko has unbelieveable athelticism? Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I'm done. Darko is just stupid. He doesn't know what the hell he's doing. If he has so much skill and was supposedly so NBA ready, what happened? He's just an idiot.


Yes, because he had a rough season as an 18-year old, he lacks mental capacity, much like, say, a certain person I'm quoting here.

The trick was he WASN'T NBA ready, he wasn't supposed to contribute right away. Nobody with sense expects an 18-year old HS senior to come in and contribute right away to a veteran team in 1.3 mpg. Had he gotten time in the regular rotation, maybe we'd be singing a different song.


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> Sometimes he even gets double teamed. He's almost set up to fail in those situations.


And I love it. I'm hoping that if Darko fails, the European influx will die down, and I'll never have to deal with another Primoz Brezec or Bruno Sundov on the Pacers.


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> From the Chicago Pre-Draft Camp Last Year. Darko's athletic ability versus Carmello's.
> 
> Vertical Jump
> Darko - 32.5 inches
> Carmello - 33.5 inches
> 
> Bench Press Reps 185 Pounds
> Darko - 13
> Carmello - 7
> 
> Lane Agility Test
> Darko - 11.3 seconds
> Carmello - 11.4seconds
> 
> 3/4 Court Sprint
> Darko - 3.36 seconds
> Carmello - 3.15seconds


The thing about that is it's all great, but you need basketball skills to go along with it. Carmello actually can shoot and dribble a basketball proficiently. I'd rather have a guy with skills and less athleticism than the reciprical.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>IAMGREAT</b>!
> Darko has unbelieveable athelticism? Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I'm done. Darko is just stupid. He doesn't know what the hell he's doing. If he has so much skill and was supposedly so NBA ready, what happened? He's just an idiot.


hhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

You thought Darko was NBA ready.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> The thing about that is it's all great, but you need basketball skills to go along with it. Carmello actually can shoot and dribble a basketball proficiently. I'd rather have a guy with skills and less athleticism than the reciprical.


Darko is a better shooter than Carmelo, easily.


----------



## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Darko is a better shooter than Carmelo, easily.


And he can play defense and isn't a whiny little *****.


----------



## AtomGreen

I've been to a few Pistons games this year, and have gotten there an hour or so early on two occasions in order to watch Darko warm-up and shoot around.

That being said, I can honestly say that I know why these guys are so high on him. As raw as he is at this point in his career, and he is raw...Darko can really do it all. 

He has his post up moves. Hook shot with both hands, turn-around J, turn-around J pump fake, finger roll, etc. Also keep in mind that playing with his back to the basket is the only thing that Larry Brown is wanting him to do at this point, and this is also probably the weakest part of his game. In Europe he was a Tony Kukoc type wing forward. He's much more developed getting the ball on the wing and breaking his man down that way. He hasnt been allowed to even try that YET in Detroit.

He can shoot the three. He was draining them the first time I saw him...he hit seven or eight in a row at one point. Whether he shoots them yet in games or not, the potential is most definitely there.

He's athletic. He runs up and down the court like a deer. Very comfortable, athletic-looking strides. Easily keeping up with Ben Wallace in their sprint drills. His athleticism isnt just in the form of running either...he has some surprisingly nice hops for a seven footer. I saw him doing actual windmill dunks (NO LIE), he was doing double-pump one handed reverse dunks coming under the basket, and then he was jumping from a good ways out and also finishing with dunks. So that raw ability is there as well.

And he has nice handles for a kid his size. So I can see why people are hyped about Darko's potential, and at this point that's all that it really is, potential...but there's a GOOD deal of it. If there was ever such a thing as a five-tooled center...Darko Milicic as a prospect, is a five tooled center. He has the potential to do it all.


----------



## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>AtomGreen</b>!
> I've been to a few Pistons games this year, and have gotten there an hour or so early on two occasions in order to watch Darko warm-up and shoot around.
> 
> That being said, I can honestly say that I know why these guys are so high on him. As raw as he is at this point in his career, and he is raw...Darko can really do it all.
> 
> He has his post up moves. Hook shot with both hands, turn-around J, turn-around J pump fake, finger roll, etc. Also keep in mind that playing with his back to the basket is the only thing that Larry Brown is wanting him to do at this point, and this is also probably the weakest part of his game. In Europe he was a Tony Kukoc type wing forward. He's much more developed getting the ball on the wing and breaking his man down that way. He hasnt been allowed to even try that YET in Detroit.
> 
> He can shoot the three. He was draining them the first time I saw him...he hit seven or eight in a row at one point. Whether he shoots them yet in games or not, the potential is most definitely there.
> 
> He's athletic. He runs up and down the court like a deer. Very comfortable, athletic-looking strides. Easily keeping up with Ben Wallace in their sprint drills. His athleticism isnt just in the form of running either...he has some surprisingly nice hops for a seven footer. I saw him doing actual windmill dunks (NO LIE), he was doing double-pump one handed reverse dunks coming under the basket, and then he was jumping from a good ways out and also finishing with dunks. So that raw ability is there as well.
> 
> And he has nice handles for a kid his size. So I can see why people are hyped about Darko's potential, and at this point that's all that it really is, potential...but there's a GOOD deal of it. If there was ever such a thing as a five-tooled center...Darko Milicic as a prospect, is a five tooled center. He has the potential to do it all.


Best.Post.This.Month.

Now I can't wait to see all the flamers come out with......."oh well I saw him miss a dunk in a game that was blowout" Blah Blah Blah

It's amazing how many people on this board know absolutely nothing about potential or basketball in general.


----------



## Baron Davis

> Originally posted by <b>Red_Bandit</b>!
> when adding muscle, especially the amount Darko added since he was drafted, does it affect the way you shoot?
> 
> 
> i am not a basketball player but when i used to play in gym class, (before i started to lift weights) my shot was more fluid, but as i added muscle my shot was awful. Darko this year has been shooting poorly, could this be the reason?


lol, what are you talking about? Adding muscle affects the way you shoot? Maybe you have a garbage stroke and shoot two handed, that's the way I see it. Also, more muscle would make it easier for you to shoot(especially if you gained muscles in your legs), the shot is all about leg strength and wrist action, so I don't see how adding muscle can affect your shot.


----------



## Nevus

Great post AtomGreen... thanks for the first-hand information.

Like I wrote earlier, he needs to get into games when he can run on some fast breaks... that will start getting his confidence up.


----------



## Baron Davis

> And he can play defense and isn't a whiny little *****.


He can play defense? From what I have seen so far during the season and playoffs, he's just mindlessly standing around on defense and pretends to do something, then waits for someone to miss so he can get the rebound, doesn't look like much defense there.

He isn't a whiny little *****? Then why was he complaining about getting no playing time?



> ...Darko can really do it all.


I'll believe that when I see it.


----------



## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> He can play defense? From what I have seen so far during the season and playoffs, he's just mindlessly standing around on defense and pretends to do something, then waits for someone to miss so he can get the rebound, doesn't look like much defense there.
> 
> He isn't a whiny little *****? Then why was he complaining about getting no playing time?
> 
> 
> 
> I'll believe that when I see it.


Here we go.......   

Everybody loves a hater. Hate on.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> 
> Best.Post.This.Month.
> 
> Now I can't wait to see all the flamers come out with......."oh well I saw him miss a dunk in a game that was blowout" Blah Blah Blah
> 
> It's amazing how many people on this board know absolutely nothing about potential or basketball in general.


so someone who knows a lot about basketball is someone who claims darko gained 50 lbs in a single season, i take it?


----------



## nmuman

If you can read I already said I was mistaken and read the numbers wrong. 

:thand:


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Darko is a better shooter than Carmelo, easily.


In terms of Darko's .262 field goal percentage or his .583 free throw percentage? Should I also take into consideration that all of Darko's shots come in garbage time, hence are 10X more easy than shots in non-garbage time?


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> If you can read I already said I was mistaken and read the numbers wrong.
> 
> :thand:


that's quite the mistake for someone as obviously knowledgable as you.


----------



## nmuman

Yawn. Next.


----------



## Odomiles

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> In terms of Darko's .262 field goal percentage or his .583 free throw percentage? Should I also take into consideration that all of Darko's shots come in garbage time, hence are 10X more easy than shots in non-garbage time?


If you're going to take that into consideration then why not consider the fact that he's going into the game cold after not shooting or running around for 2-3 hours?


----------



## JT

*ask the franchise*

Having all that vertical, agility crap means nothing if you can't use it in a basketball game. Steve Francis has a higher vertical than Stockton. Is he a better player? Um, no.

I believe Darko will be a solid NBA player, better than most Euro stiffs since he can learn from Larry Brown but he will be a bust since he was #2.

One more thing its funny to see everybody buying into the scouts opinions like they are the alpha and the omega on players. heck, wasn't Olowokandi placed and drafted at #1 by these same exact scouts?


----------



## Wiggum

*Re: ask the franchise*



> Originally posted by <b>jtx</b>!
> Having all that vertical, agility crap means nothing if you can't use it in a basketball game. Steve Francis has a higher vertical than Stockton. Is he a better player? Um, no.


I can't say I disagree. Guys, I've seen streetballers doing things that looked "unbelievable," and if that is what makes a good player, well, why isn't Rafer Alston an all-star?

I really honestly do not care about Darko Milicic's vertical leap, since there are plenty of athletic players with huge vertical leaps who can't play the game. I honestly do not care if AtomGreen saw Darko Milicic doing a windmill dunk during a Pistons practice. I'm much more interested in performance, and since Darko Milicic hasn't had an impressive career at any professional level, I'm deciding its probably not the best idea to pass up the best player on the NCAA championship team in order to take a 17 year old kid, no matter how high he can jump or how "athletic-looking" his strides are.

Darko's free to go off and become a great NBA player (though, in all fairness, he'll need to develop into a great Euroleague player first), and I'm not rooting for him to fail just so I'll be "right"; that's just the way I would run my franchise. When there's a sure thing there, I'd take it. That's just me though. I'm not a "hater," and neither is anyone who is simply saying they'll believe it when they see it.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> Best.Post.This.Month.
> 
> Now I can't wait to see all the flamers come out with......."oh well I saw him miss a dunk in a game that was blowout" Blah Blah Blah
> 
> It's amazing how many people on this board know absolutely nothing about potential or basketball in general.


See, why is that the "Best.Post.This.Month."? All he did was tell you exactly what you wanted to hear. No offense, AtomGreen, I don't think you're lying, but... OK, you saw Darko do some impressive things in practice. That hardly is going to silence any skeptics. He's *obviously* doing impressive looking things in practice; that's why he was drafted so high. Nobody's saying he's not a good practicer.

Nmunan, its not that I "know absolutely nothing about potential or basketball in general," I just happen to think that this speculative drafting is getting out of hand. At first, we drafted players we knew would be good NBA players. Then we started drafting high school and European players who dominated their leagues, but would only eventually become good NBA players (hopefully). Now being good in Europe isn't even a prerequisite, it seems. The whole thing just seems crazy to me.


----------



## nmuman

I just think that most of the guys on here that are harping on him are doing it just to harp on him. He came into a team at 18 years old that was a championship contender. If he was American he would have been a high school senior. A HIGH SCHOOL SENIOR! Why not give him some time before making all this racket?


----------



## The Mad Viking

[sarcasm]

Oh know, if Darko was in a US HS he would be schooled!

I mean, all those fat 6-7 centers would just own him!

[/sarcasm]

Or maybe he would put up Howard #s and go 2nd overall (again).

All I ask is that you guys look at the nba.com profile for Jermaine O'Neal. He was a "huge bust" as an 18-year old too. 

Kwame Brown. Look at the improvement. Watch this year.

Darko cannot be fairly evaluated on the sample of his few garbage time minutes. He cannot be fairly evaluated by the fact that his coach chose to play Ben, Sheed, Memo & Eldon in front of him.

He cannot even begin to be fairly compared to Carmelo or Lebron.

And Detroit clearly did not need a Carmelo on their team this year, did they? In fact, he would have either sat or hurt the team with his "gimme the ball, what is D?" approach to the game.

Not a knock on Carmelo, just a statement of fact. He is a terrific young player, but the Pistons are probably the worst fit in the NBA for him.

time will tell


----------



## IAMGREAT

I can't believe I'm reading this. These people who believe Darko is good are absolutely insane. He's the most clueless basketball player I've ever seen. He might be somewhat athletic, can shoot when nobody is guarding him in warm-ups, and have an average vertical, but he can't play basketball. This kid is terrible and clueless. He'll need some hardcore basketball drugs to be good. 

Why's everybody making excuses for him. He had a chance and he was supposed to be eased into the role over the season. That's what I heard repeatedly before he was drafted. "He may not start at first, but he'll eventually be worked into the rotation." This never happened and probably will never happen. He was supposed to be NBA ready, and it turns out that he's not ready at all or even good for that matter. Nobody expected Darko to be a star this year, but nobody expected him to be so woeful either. I hadn't seen him play much and reserved my judgement and now I can make a judgement. Darko is the worst player in the NBA.


----------



## AtomGreen

My post wasn't intended to convince anyone that Darko is the second coming...and since nobody is claiming that Darko is great by any means, nobody is insane IAM. We're talking about potential people. Remember Jermaine O'Neal's rookie season? The exact same conversations were being held on message boards very similar to this one.

My post was simply first hand knowledge of what Darko is able to do in a practice environment, something very few people outside of the scouts, those inside the Pistons organization, and Pistons ticket holders are priviledged to see. Take it for what it is. 

The kid HAS basketball skills beyond his obvious physical abilities. He really does. I know it's hard for some of you to believe that since you're only able to see him in garbage minutes at the end of blowout ballgames, but he does. 

Why do you think Detroit's crowd goes crazy when he comes into ballgames if all they ever saw was bricked dunks, bricked shots, fouls and turnovers? The answer...they wouldn't. They all have seen the same things that I've seen (which is what the scouts all saw as well) which gives folks more than enough reasons to not only give the kid the benefit of the doubt, but enough reason to actually be excited about this guy's future.

I'll make no bones about it, Darko's a work in progress and he needs time to develop, probably another year or so...just like Dumars stated from day one, but he is going to be a pretty impressive ballplayer before his rookie contract is up. At least that's my (more informed than yours) opinion.


----------



## Cusematt23

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> lol, what are you talking about? Adding muscle affects the way you shoot? Maybe you have a garbage stroke and shoot two handed, that's the way I see it. Also, more muscle would make it easier for you to shoot(especially if you gained muscles in your legs), the shot is all about leg strength and wrist action, so I don't see how adding muscle can affect your shot.


You're wrong. Just ask Donyell Marshall. Good shooter at UConn, crappy shooter after he added all the muscle.


----------



## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>AtomGreen</b>!
> "I'd rather be a superstar on a losing team than a 6th man on a championship team" --Carmelo Anthony prior to the season beginning.


Is there a link to this quote?


----------



## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>IAMGREAT</b>!
> I can't believe I'm reading this. These people who believe Darko is good are absolutely insane. He's the most clueless basketball player I've ever seen. He might be somewhat athletic, can shoot when nobody is guarding him in warm-ups, and have an average vertical, but he can't play basketball. This kid is terrible and clueless. He'll need some hardcore basketball drugs to be good.
> 
> Why's everybody making excuses for him. He had a chance and he was supposed to be eased into the role over the season. That's what I heard repeatedly before he was drafted. "He may not start at first, but he'll eventually be worked into the rotation." This never happened and probably will never happen. He was supposed to be NBA ready, and it turns out that he's not ready at all or even good for that matter. Nobody expected Darko to be a star this year, but nobody expected him to be so woeful either. I hadn't seen him play much and reserved my judgement and now I can make a judgement. Darko is the worst player in the NBA.


Worst.Post.Ever

NO ONE thought he was NBA ready and everyone of the Pistons brain trust knew he wouldn't produce for a few years.

Keep Hating, we love it.


----------



## ian

*Re: Re: ask the franchise*



> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> I can't say I disagree. Guys, I've seen streetballers doing things that looked "unbelievable," and if that is what makes a good player, well, why isn't Rafer Alston an all-star?
> 
> I really honestly do not care about Darko Milicic's vertical leap, since there are plenty of athletic players with huge vertical leaps who can't play the game. I honestly do not care if AtomGreen saw Darko Milicic doing a windmill dunk during a Pistons practice. I'm much more interested in performance, and since Darko Milicic hasn't had an impressive career at any professional level, I'm deciding its probably not the best idea to pass up the best player on the NCAA championship team in order to take a 17 year old kid, no matter how high he can jump or how "athletic-looking" his strides are.
> 
> Darko's free to go off and become a great NBA player (though, in all fairness, he'll need to develop into a great Euroleague player first), and I'm not rooting for him to fail just so I'll be "right"; that's just the way I would run my franchise. When there's a sure thing there, I'd take it. That's just me though. I'm not a "hater," and neither is anyone who is simply saying they'll believe it when they see it.





> Originally posted by <b>ian</b>!
> 
> 
> Or I was disagreeing with a major part of your argument, which was that Darko has never put up solid numbers anywhere, and nothing more...
> 
> Darko had 14 ppg in 22 mpg last year in Europe.
> Carmelo had 22.7 ppg in 36.4 mpg last year at Syracuse.
> 
> Extrapolating, Darko would have had 23.2 ppg in 36.4 mpg. Is that a sure-fire way to measure Darko? Of course not. But it certainly is different from what you first said, which is all I was taking issue with. I don't think it's wrong to point out a mistake.


I've already shown you that Darko put up very, very good numbers in Europe. Can you stop with the "he's never been good, anywhere" BS?


----------



## AtomGreen

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> 
> Is there a link to this quote?


I'll look, it was from an interview I read back prior to the draft. It was in response to the question, "Would you rather be a superstar on a losing team or a 6th man on a championship team?" and Melo's response was, "I'd rather be a superstar on a losing team."

FWIW, Darko was asked the same set of questions and his response to the above question..."6th man on a championship team."


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>Odomiles</b>!
> 
> If you're going to take that into consideration then why not consider the fact that he's going into the game cold after not shooting or running around for 2-3 hours?


That's not an excuse. I can go to the gym and hit jumpers after not warming up and I'm sure Darko is much much better than me, seeing as I'm not that good. Also, he plays garbage minutes, usually against other garbage players. The time he plays is a bigger advantage for him than a disadvantage.




> Why do you think Detroit's crowd goes crazy when he comes into ballgames if all they ever saw was bricked dunks, bricked shots, fouls and turnovers?


The Pacer crowd applauds when Primoz Brezec comes into the game. Why? I have no idea because he is one of the worst players in the league. People just like to see players that they don't get to see often.



> If he was American he would have been a high school senior. A HIGH SCHOOL SENIOR! Why not give him some time before making all this racket?


And there's a big problem with that. Being that they drafted a player who would be a high school senior that has not shown much.


----------



## IAMGREAT

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> 
> Worst.Post.Ever
> 
> NO ONE thought he was NBA ready and everyone of the Pistons brain trust knew he wouldn't produce for a few years.
> 
> Keep Hating, we love it.


It's not hate, it's the truth. If you recall, up until they drafted him and shortly after they drafted him, I heard numerous times from Joe D that he would eventually get meaningful minutes this year. This doesn't mean that he would start or even be 6th, 7th, or 8th man. He got absolutely no meaningful minutes whatsoever and all that readiness that they said he had and skill has not been seen by me or anybody else. There is no hate. It's the facts. You keep convincing yourself that he's good. Why can't you accept the fact that he sucks?


----------



## nmuman

I think what we saw...when he played during the PLAYOFFS...was simply nerves.

Imagine how well you'd play in the NBA PLAYOFFS, let alone the FINALS...when you were a SENIOR in high school?

How well do you think Shaq would have played...his senior year?

His senior year was what...1989/90?

How nervous would he have been...playing with the BAD BOYS? I don't care how arogant you are, you are still a kid, playing amongst men.

I listen to how his team mentions his name...and while some might say, WHAT ELSE ARE THEY SUPPOSE TO SAY, there are times when they didn't even have to say anything at all...and still went out of their way to talk not only about him, but of his progress.

-posted on another board and I agree 100%


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>AtomGreen</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll look, it was from an interview I read back prior to the draft. It was in response to the question, "Would you rather be a superstar on a losing team or a 6th man on a championship team?" and Melo's response was, "I'd rather be a superstar on a losing team."
> 
> FWIW, Darko was asked the same set of questions and his response to the above question..."6th man on a championship team."


I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove. If you were a lawyer, would you rather be a great lawyer for a small firm or a non-descript lawyer for the best law firm in the US?

Why *should* someone prefer being a mediocre part of a great organization rather than being great one's self?

I'm as big a supporter of giving Milicic a chance as anyone on this board, but I think this question is loaded to taint the person with ambition...ambition being a *positive* thing. If Milicic honestly would rather be a sixth man than a superstar, no matter on what team, then I wouldn't want him.

No real drive to be great.


----------



## IAMGREAT

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> I think what we saw...when he played during the PLAYOFFS...was simply nerves.
> 
> Imagine how well you'd play in the NBA PLAYOFFS, let alone the FINALS...when you were a SENIOR in high school?
> 
> How well do you think Shaq would have played...his senior year?
> 
> His senior year was what...1989/90?
> 
> How nervous would he have been...playing with the BAD BOYS? I don't care how arogant you are, you are still a kid, playing amongst men.
> 
> I listen to how his team mentions his name...and while some might say, WHAT ELSE ARE THEY SUPPOSE TO SAY, there are times when they didn't even have to say anything at all...and still went out of their way to talk not only about him, but of his progress.
> 
> -posted on another board and I agree 100%


He played with that same clueless look on his face the whole season. The excuses for Darko are getting a little ridiculous.


----------



## ian

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove. If you were a lawyer, would you rather be a great lawyer for a small firm or a non-descript lawyer for the best law firm in the US?
> 
> Why *should* someone prefer being a mediocre part of a great organization rather than being great one's self?
> 
> I'm as big a supporter of giving Milicic a chance as anyone on this board, but I think this question is loaded to taint the person with ambition...ambition being a *positive* thing. If Milicic honestly would rather be a sixth man than a superstar, no matter on what team, then I wouldn't want him.
> 
> No real drive to be great.


Basketball is about winning, not about individual accomplishments. 
That's why it's called a team game.

What's better, a championship ring or a scoring title? I'd say the championship ring.


----------



## adarsh1

now wat if darko goes on to get 15-10 and never sniffs the finals again

however...melo gets mj like numbers but doesn't have the big guy to get to the finals either and never wins a championship...who had the better career..just wondering


----------



## compsciguy78

Picking Darko at #2 was the right pick. The Pistons won the championship and they got a player that they planned to develop slowly. If Carmelo is picked you have someone who demands more of the team(actually more of the ball). They most likely would have gotten Rasheed; Carmelo or not. The most important fact to this Detroit win, besides Shaq's lazy butt, was that they had team chemistry, and when you bring Carmelo in, this might be an issue.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>ian</b>!
> 
> Basketball is about winning, not about individual accomplishments.
> That's why it's called a team game.


Every endeavour is about being the best you, personally, can be. How good the organization is, is about everyone in the organization.

I'm not saying one should play in a selfish manner. But I don't believe there's anyone on Earth who would choose to be Mark Madsen rather than Kevin Garnett because Madsen has won a title and Garnett hasn't.



> What's better, a championship ring or a scoring title? I'd say the championship ring.


So you'd rather be Steve Kerr than Charles Barkley?

I'd rather be great. Whether one gets a good team around one or not is out of one's hands.


----------



## ian

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Every endeavour is about being the best you, personally, can be. How good the organization is about everyone in the organization.
> 
> 
> 
> So you'd rather be Steve Kerr than Charles Barkley?
> 
> I'd rather be great. Whether one gets a good team around one or not is out of one's hands.


Charles Barkley obviously tried to chase a championship when he went to Houston. It should be obvious to you that top players would willingly be the sixth man on a championship team.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>ian</b>!
> 
> 
> Charles Barkley obviously tried to chase a championship when he went to Houston. It should be obvious to you that top players would willingly be the sixth man on a championship team.


Not *instead* of being a superstar. Only *after* their superstar years were done, maybe. I doubt if you asked great players, "Would you trade all your great, superstar years to be a sixth man on a championship team?" any of them would take that trade. I doubt anyone would trade a Hall of Fame career for a championship ring.


----------



## cherokeejack

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> If he was American he would have been a high school senior. A HIGH SCHOOL SENIOR!


Why do people keep saying this? Milicic was born June, 1985 which is well within the cutoff date for the 84/85 class. The only way he would be a senior is if he was held back a year. The seniors this year are the 85/86 group except for those who have been accelerated or held back, and starts with people born late in 1985 not in June.


----------



## froggyvk

> Originally posted by <b>cherokeejack</b>!
> Why do people keep saying this? Milicic was born June, 1985 which is well within the cutoff date for the 84/85 class. The only way he would be a senior is if he was held back a year. The seniors this year are the 85/86 group except for those who have been accelerated or held back, and starts with people born late in 1985 not in June.


He is 6 months younger than LeBron. LeBron is about average age for his class, Darko is too young to be in that class. He would be considered an "old junior." So LeBron entered the draft as a senior in high school, then Darko entered as a junior.


----------



## chibullsno23

If you look at the draft, most of the high schoolers entering the draft are actually 19 years old or very close to it. And Darko hasnt even turned 19 yet.


----------



## froggyvk

> Originally posted by <b>chibullsno23</b>!
> If you look at the draft, most of the high schoolers entering the draft are actually 19 years old or very close to it. And Darko hasnt even turned 19 yet.


He turned 19 two days ago.


----------



## chibullsno23

oh yeah, i forgot. :uhoh:


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> In terms of Darko's .262 field goal percentage or his .583 free throw percentage? Should I also take into consideration that all of Darko's shots come in garbage time, hence are 10X more easy than shots in non-garbage time?


Sure, do whatever.


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Sure, do whatever.


Math is your friend :yes:




:no:


----------



## ian

> Originally posted by <b>cherokeejack</b>!
> 
> 
> Why do people keep saying this? Milicic was born June, 1985 which is well within the cutoff date for the 84/85 class. The only way he would be a senior is if he was held back a year. The seniors this year are the 85/86 group except for those who have been accelerated or held back, and starts with people born late in 1985 not in June.


You know they changed the rules so Milicic could enter the draft, right? He was younger than everyone else and wouldn't have been eligible, because he'd have only been entering his high school senior year.


----------



## Baron Davis

> Originally posted by <b>AtomGreen</b>!
> My post wasn't intended to convince anyone that Darko is the second coming...and since nobody is claiming that Darko is great by any means, nobody is insane IAM. We're talking about potential people. Remember Jermaine O'Neal's rookie season? The exact same conversations were being held on message boards very similar to this one.
> 
> My post was simply first hand knowledge of what Darko is able to do in a practice environment, something very few people outside of the scouts, those inside the Pistons organization, and Pistons ticket holders are priviledged to see. Take it for what it is.
> 
> The kid HAS basketball skills beyond his obvious physical abilities. He really does. I know it's hard for some of you to believe that since you're only able to see him in garbage minutes at the end of blowout ballgames, but he does.
> 
> Why do you think Detroit's crowd goes crazy when he comes into ballgames if all they ever saw was bricked dunks, bricked shots, fouls and turnovers? The answer...they wouldn't. They all have seen the same things that I've seen (which is what the scouts all saw as well) which gives folks more than enough reasons to not only give the kid the benefit of the doubt, but enough reason to actually be excited about this guy's future.
> 
> I'll make no bones about it, Darko's a work in progress and he needs time to develop, probably another year or so...just like Dumars stated from day one, but he is going to be a pretty impressive ballplayer before his rookie contract is up. At least that's my (more informed than yours) opinion.


lol, you know why the Detroit crowd cheers when Milicic is put into the game? It's because they won and they know they won so they cheer for that, not because of Milicic.


----------



## Baron Davis

> Originally posted by <b>Cusematt23</b>!
> 
> Originally posted by Baron Davis!
> 
> 
> lol, what are you talking about? Adding muscle affects the way you shoot? Maybe you have a garbage stroke and shoot two handed, that's the way I see it. Also, more muscle would make it easier for you to shoot(especially if you gained muscles in your legs), the shot is all about leg strength and wrist action, so I don't see how adding muscle can affect your shot.
> 
> 
> You're wrong. Just ask Donyell Marshall. Good shooter at UConn, crappy shooter after he added all the muscle.


Ok, so what am I wrong about? One player who added muscle and his shot was ruined, ok out of how many that are playing professional basketball? Maybe he just spent too much time working out instead of repeatedly shooting a basketball. IMO, muscle gives more confidence in a shot.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> lol, you know why the Detroit crowd cheers when Milicic is put into the game? It's because they won and they know they won so they cheer for that, not because of Milicic.


No.... they're chearing for Darko. They don't chant "We want Darko" because they're winning, it's because everyone wants to see him play.


----------



## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> lol, you know why the Detroit crowd cheers when Milicic is put into the game? It's because they won and they know they won so they cheer for that, not because of Milicic.


NO they cheer because they want to see him play. He is a fan favorite in Detroit.


----------



## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> [sarcasm]
> 
> Oh know, if Darko was in a US HS he would be schooled!
> 
> I mean, all those fat 6-7 centers would just own him!
> 
> [/sarcasm]
> 
> Or maybe he would put up Howard #s and go 2nd overall (again).
> 
> All I ask is that you guys look at the nba.com profile for Jermaine O'Neal. He was a "huge bust" as an 18-year old too.
> 
> Kwame Brown. Look at the improvement. Watch this year.
> 
> Darko cannot be fairly evaluated on the sample of his few garbage time minutes. He cannot be fairly evaluated by the fact that his coach chose to play Ben, Sheed, Memo & Eldon in front of him.
> 
> He cannot even begin to be fairly compared to Carmelo or Lebron.
> 
> And Detroit clearly did not need a Carmelo on their team this year, did they? In fact, he would have either sat or hurt the team with his "gimme the ball, what is D?" approach to the game.
> 
> Not a knock on Carmelo, just a statement of fact. He is a terrific young player, but the Pistons are probably the worst fit in the NBA for him.
> 
> time will tell


If Darko Milicic had been a high school senior in the US, and put up 30 points per game, I would be saying the exact same thing. We have basically the same situation this year; give me Emeka Okafor over Dwight Howard, without hesitation.

I've said this multiple times, and obviously people are choosing not to read it. So I'll rephrase it and put it in bold italics this time.

I realize that Jermaine O'Neal put up lousy numbers in his rookie year and went on to become a great player. I realize that. I don't see why this means we should assume the same thing will happen to Darko Milicic. I am NOT saying that Darko Milicic is a bust. I am NOT SAYING THAT. I am saying that Joe Dumars made a move that I consider too risky, given his circumstances AT THE TIME OF THE DRAFT. I am also NOT saying that we can definatively use Darko's performance in the 2003-2004 season to see what he is capable of. I'm saying that given how bad he looked this year, he has an awful long way to go before he's the player he's believed to be capable of becoming. And, since he's so far away from the player he's thought to be on the way to becoming, I think it's hard, too hard in all practicality, to say what he will become. This is where most people disagree with me. Hey, that's fine. You all would be much bolder GMs than I would be.

That's all I'm going to say on this thread. There's an awful lot written here when all this really boils down to is, I just see more risk than you guys see. We've said what we need to say, so that's that. Good debate.


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## AtomGreen

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> lol, you know why the Detroit crowd cheers when Milicic is put into the game? It's because they won and they know they won so they cheer for that, not because of Milicic.


Why don't they cheer for Tremaine Fowlkes then? Does the Palace just have a mean spirited, anti-American crowd with regards to treatment of the Detroit bench in garbage time?! 

Ya know, that's so ga'dam ridiculous that you just might be onto something! Wow.


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## AtomGreen

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> I am saying that Joe Dumars made a move that I consider too risky, given his circumstances AT THE TIME OF THE DRAFT.


Sit down class...and please listen.

Joe Dumars had an abundance of small forwards and a shortage of big men AT THE TIME OF THE DRAFT. 

But you think that Joe should've drafted yet another small forward FOR THE THIRD STRAIGHT YEAR instead of the big man that their organization has been looking for?! Wiggum, explain to me how your plan would NOT have been the risky thing to do, let alone completely contrary to Detroit's needs AT THE TIME OF THE DRAFT?


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>AtomGreen</b>!
> 
> 
> Why don't they cheer for Tremaine Fowlkes then? Does the Palace just have a mean spirited, anti-American crowd with regards to treatment of the Detroit bench in garbage time?!
> 
> Ya know, that's so ga'dam ridiculous that you just might be onto something! Wow.


And Conceso cheered for Brezec (thank god he's gone). Does that make him a decent player? No.


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## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> And Conceso cheered for Brezec (thank god he's gone). Does that make him a decent player? No.



LOL, you compared Brezec to Darko!!!!:laugh: :laugh:


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## AtomGreen

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> And Conceso cheered for Brezec (thank god he's gone). Does that make him a decent player? No.


It could, I guess it DEPENDS ON WHY THEY'RE CHEERING FOR HIM.

I've been to Pistons games. I've talked to the folks around me and they're pretty much all in agreement...those who've seen with their own eyes the flashes of talent that I've mentioned, they realize that Darko is the youngest player in the leauge but they ARE truly excited about his potential for great things. That's why they cheer for him.

As for Brezec, I dont know. Why dont you tell me. You know more about him than I do. Why do Indiana fans cheer for him?


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> And Conceso cheered for Brezec (thank god he's gone). Does that make him a decent player? No.


no need to insult brezec man. he didnt hurt nobody.


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## Baron Davis

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, you compared Brezec to Darko!!!!:laugh: :laugh:


Brezec blows as much as Milicic blows 

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100637&perpage=15&pagenumber=1


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> And Conceso cheered for Brezec (thank god he's gone). Does that make him a decent player? No.


They have many similarities. They are both foreign. They are both very tall. They look similar. They both averaged horrible stats in limited minutes. This year, I hate to say it, but Brezec was actually better than Milicic.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>AtomGreen</b>!
> 
> 
> It could, I guess it DEPENDS ON WHY THEY'RE CHEERING FOR HIM.
> 
> I've been to Pistons games. I've talked to the folks around me and they're pretty much all in agreement...those who've seen with their own eyes the flashes of talent that I've mentioned, they realize that Darko is the youngest player in the leauge but they ARE truly excited about his potential for great things. That's why they cheer for him.
> 
> As for Brezec, I dont know. Why dont you tell me. You know more about him than I do. Why do Indiana fans cheer for him?


People cheer for Brezec because he is like the little engine that could. He is playing in extremem garbage time with 2 or so minutes left and he's running and playing as hard as he can, going after every rebound, and making no look passes by passing and then looking away. But just becuase Pacer fans cheer for his determination and hustle, does not mean he is good by any means. So, just because Detroit fans cheer for Milicic, does not mean he is good in any way.


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## AtomGreen

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> So, just because Detroit fans cheer for Milicic, does not mean he is good in any way.


Thank you, oh Master of the Obvious.

You mean, cheering for a player doesn't immediately make him good? What the crap is this? I always thought that a crowd could miraculously turn a horrible player into a star just by cheering for him?! Wow, I guess you learn something new every day. 

Now back to reality and the point of the post that you were responding to. I was describing the REASONS why Detroit fans cheer so intently for Darko; because they SEE the potential that Dumars saw and that all the scouts saw. They realize how yong he is and how promising his skills are and that of anyone in the league, the youngest guy in said league who was the #2 overall pick, definitely deserves the benefit of the doubt. And as you have described to us, those are NOT the same reasons why Indy fans cheered for Brezec. THAT was the point of my post.


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## Nevus

Interestingly, Jay Bilas said on PTI today that based on workouts of Milicic that he's seen, he thinks if Milicic were in this year's draft, he would be the consensus #1 pick over both Okafor and Howard.


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## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> Interestingly, Jay Bilas said on PTI today that based on workouts of Milicic that he's seen, he thinks if Milicic were in this year's draft, he would be the consensus #1 pick over both Okafor and Howard.



***edited*** You mean there are people out there that know more about basketball then the geniuses on this message board?!?!?

Every single GM in the league would sell their left nut to have Darko on their team. I cant' wait to see what this KID can do in a few years.


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## Baron Davis

> Originally posted by *nmuman!*
> 
> ***edited*** You mean there are people out there that know more about basketball then the geniuses on this message board?!?!?
> 
> Every single GM in the league would sell their left nut to have Darko on their team. I cant' wait to see what this KID can do in a few years.


Seriously, stop riding on Milicic. You don't know what every GM in the league would want. So what if Milicic did good in practice, it's pretty easy to knock down wide open shots and finish wide open dunks at a practice. Plus, he's soft and doesn't have the strength to go against bigger players such as Shaq.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> 
> Plus, he's soft and doesn't have the strength to go against bigger players such as Shaq.


Doesn't have the strength to go against Shaq? And how does this make him different from every other player in the league?

Seriously, just stop. With each post it becomes increasingly obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. 

Darko is a lot of things right now: lost, inexperienced, out of sync, etc... But what he's NOT is soft. And if you knew anything about him, you would know that since he hasn't been playing much, he's just been lifting like crazy with Ben Wallace all season.


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## Baron Davis

If he's not soft, then he should've played with a little bit of aggressiveness with those garbage minutes. From what I've seen so far, it doesn't look like aggression or potential to me.

I don't know what I'm talking about? Just cause someone lifts weights like crazy doesn't mean he's aggressive. Wait after a few years and see what a bust he is.


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## kamego

It's funny to read this one. If your a piston fan your shaking your head laughing because you don't really care what people from other teams care and then you see everyone that was a fan of eastern team ripping darko apart. I don't think it has anything to do with how bad he played in his time this year or what little he did but just the fact the #2 pick in the draft last year went to the NBA champs and they didn't even play him. I think that pisses more people off more then how little he did.

The only things we know right now are Darko did increase his muscle mass in his arms by almost double and is now in great shape and should only be getting in better. He won't be in the Olympics because he broke his hand in the last game of the NBA finals but he should be able to play in the Summerleague. I am a Piston fan but I'm not going to call a 7 foot 1 #2 draft pick a bust after not playing for one season. You have to give the guy some team learning english is important before you learn the offense. We will know in 2 or 3 years if this guy was the biggest bust since the Jordan draft or if he turns out to be what the scouts said he was last year. Either way most piston fans are extremley happy with him and Carlos Delfino.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> If he's not soft, then he should've played with a little bit of aggressiveness with those garbage minutes. From what I've seen so far, it doesn't look like aggression or potential to me.
> 
> I don't know what I'm talking about? Just cause someone lifts weights like crazy doesn't mean he's aggressive. Wait after a few years and see what a bust he is.


Give examples of how he doesn't play with aggression. It's just not true. He hasn't been stunning in his limited minutes and hasn't always played hard, but I've watched every minute he played this year and never once thought to myself he looks soft or scared. 

I think his biggest problem was just getting into the game emotionally. Kind of hard to do when your team is up 20, you're getting only 4 minutes of action, and every bench player is just trying to score themselves. 

It's really unfair to judge a player on what the way they play in a game that has already been decided, by the time Darko got in, most of the guys were to the point where they were just messing around.

He only played first half minutes in two games this year- both against Sacramento.

In those games he had 2 points, 2 blocks, and 2 steals in a combined 10 minutes. During the sub-70 streak where the bench was motivated to play defense he had 4 blocks in 13 minutes against Chicago and Philly- two of which game on the final possessions of each game to keep the streak alive.

When he's playing hard he is very agressive and looks like a pretty damn good defender. I think once he starts to get big minutes people are going to be really surprised with his shotblocking ability.

I'm not saying these are great numbers or anything, just saying to say he is soft and passive is just not true. 

And when he did play this year he wasn't THAT bad.

He averaged 14 points, 13 boards, 2 assists, 2 steals, and 4.4 blocks per 48 minutes.

Yeah, we all know these stats mean nothing, but it does show that he is a pretty versatile player and it's not unfeasible he would be putting up Chris Bosh type numbers if he started on a bad team.


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## MongolianDeathCloud

You know what sucks? All these guys disappear when the prospects finally pan out; you NEVER hear people admit that they thought that Jermaine O'neal was a scrub, or Dirk Nowitzki, or that Stack was insanely better than Rip, they just move on to the next target.

The examples like those above clearly show that incredible basketball players can look anything but there first few seasons. For that reason, Darko is still an amazing prospect, as he's still younger than most entering this year's draft, and we still haven't gotten to see what he can really do.

It's futile to argue about it -- there is no "right" answer to whether Darko is a bust. You can't win this argument now unless you can see into the future a couple of years.


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## RP McMurphy

> Originally posted by <b>MongolianDeathCloud</b>!
> You know what sucks? All these guys disappear when the prospects finally pan out; you NEVER hear people admit that they thought that Jermaine O'neal was a scrub, or Dirk Nowitzki, or that Stack was insanely better than Rip, they just move on to the next target.


:clap:


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## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>MongolianDeathCloud</b>!
> You know what sucks? All these guys disappear when the prospects finally pan out; you NEVER hear people admit that they thought that Jermaine O'neal was a scrub, or Dirk Nowitzki, or that Stack was insanely better than Rip, they just move on to the next target.
> 
> The examples like those above clearly show that incredible basketball players can look anything but there first few seasons. For that reason, Darko is still an amazing prospect, as he's still younger than most entering this year's draft, and we still haven't gotten to see what he can really do.
> 
> It's futile to argue about it -- there is no "right" answer to whether Darko is a bust. You can't win this argument now unless you can see into the future a couple of years.


5 stars!


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