# Not far off...



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Closer than most of us want to admit...





http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/dalessandro/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/1082962244190990.xml[/url]


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## GONYK (Aug 14, 2002)

I'll take this article seriously when it's not written by a man who looks like he was found in a box next to the dumpster. This article only echoes the negativity that many other posters have stated. All he's basically saying is that we traded away all our potential, which I refuse to agree with. We got obvious talent back, and we only lose two Euros, one of which would have never come here, and a pick in a pretty weak draft. You can't say that there is nothing to look forward to, because we took the defending EC champs to the brink those last two games, while missing nearly 36 points of our offense. I still will continue to expect big things from this team in the future.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GONYK</b>!
> 
> All he's basically saying is that we traded away all our potential, which I refuse to agree with. We got obvious talent back, and we only lose two Euros, one of which would have never come here, and a pick in a pretty weak draft.


I know. When and where in the NBA did this phrase "mortgaged our future" come into existense? I've never heard it before for the trading of an 18 year old prospect who's done nothing in the NBA, and two first round picks, one heavily protected, for an all-star.

I don't know, it rubs me the wrong way. If people say Marbury was expensive, or we overpaid, or I would have prefered we took our chances on the draft... i'm okay with that, but "mortgaged our future" sounds like such a platitude. Like something Carl Rove came up with.

And on Vapornic... He might turn out to be as awesome as Crawford (cough), but his contract is much more difficult to assume now than it was originally. Now the owner of his rights not only need to buy-out his contract with Real Madrid (a fixed amount which is higher than his original contract when we drafted him), AND offer him a contract he's willing to take. But now Real Madrid must also agree to let him go. That wasn't the case in his original contract. It means they need to be offered dinero sufficient to want to let their "star player" go. Who knows how much that is.

Which isn't to say the right team can't afford to do it. But if the reason he never showed up in NY was because Layden wasn't willing to anti-up what the kid (24 year old next year) thinks he's worth (and Layden always went "all-in" for people he liked [that he didn't with this kid is a bad sign])... it's more than triple or quadruple the money issue it originally was.

If Phoenix blows big bucks on FAs this summer I don't think they'll spend for him, and his rights will blow further in the wind. But if they strike out with FAs they may decide to anti-up some bucks for the guy. If he's got the guts to compete for time with the mighty Eisley that is.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Why the hell are you protecting Thomas that much? 

We pretty much mortgaged our future and overpaid for a guy who couldn't get us out of the first round. 


We gave up our future for the undefined well previously undefined present. Give it up.

Blow this ****ing team up already trade them away for an NBDL roster and picks **** it, I am sick of seeing this ***** whiny run and gun but can't stop Kmart bull****.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I wasn't on this board then but I was desirous of a blowup before the Houston signing. I'd have preferred that money to go for a Webber or the like. I preferred we didn't spend big money on the likes of Shandon and Eisley, who we knew were backups with no starting future when they came. I preferred Spree's shorter contract (and more determined style) to VH.

But once all that was done, and our grave was dug, and we'd be in cap hell till Houston and Shandon's contracts expired anyway, I was intrigued by the prospect of adding an allstar to the mix. To have tough player in NY to root for again. I did not have the love and fascination with the Euros that you have, because I never saw them play. I undersand that if they excited you that you'd feel a great loss when they were gone, but not having that emotional attachemnt to them I'm not going to find myself with it now, just because they're gone. I've still not seen them other than a few minutes of Lampe looking lost. It's just all I've seen.

That said, Marbury has disaapointed me. The Knicks have disappointed me. But I protect Isiah because I prayed for someone to come in and blow the team up, which he did. I understand that Dolan wouldn't allow him to do it in the way I would have liked, That his imperative was to make the playoffs this year, and that Lampe and Vapornic would not do that. I understand that at least in his methods he went "young and powerful" relative to his predecessor, who gave up nearly as much for "old and scrub". And I understand that when Houston and Shandon's contracts expire, which weren't his, the only expensive contract on the books will be a 30 year old point guard who, inspite of his flaws, is still one of the elite PGs in the league. By comparison to his predecessor Isiah's mistakes look better than Layden's successes.

Would I undo the trade if I could? Yes, especially because I think Houston is shot.I didn't know that at the time. I thought with Marbury and Houston banging in the backcourt, along with the decent SF and PF we had, we wouldn't need so so much to be pretty damn good for the east. The prospect of being competitive again seduced and excited me. Forgive me for being emotionally entangled with my team.

Now all that said, if you just said we over paid for Marbury I'd be fine, but... "gave up our future", based upon one Euro prospect, one Euro lost in Europe, and two mid-round picks, one of which probably wont be cashed in until 2010, and usually nets us players like John Wallace, at best... just sounds like drama-queen speak to me. We lost some youth, picked up some others, still need to develope those that we got, all while we wait for contracts to expire.

I do miss the picks, and the p[ossibility of Lampe, but I don't miss the idea of the starting line-up we were headed for thsi year and probably next of Eisley, Shandon, VH, McKnee, Motumbo. Could there be a worse, softer, slower, less athletic starting 5 in the league?

And if you have any hope in Sweetney and Williams, remember where they were before Isiah and his coaching staff. Sweets was depressed and 30lbs overweigh, never having had a coach who gave him confidence (his words) and Frank, who couldn't buy time from Eisley. Isiah got him to start. Now Isiah is personally mentoring Marbury, taking him to playoff games, getting into his head, getting him to develope his off hand, setting his sights higher than Kidd. I like the tone that Isiah sets for the team.

So I'm willing to give him more than 3 months before I judge, sentence him, call him a failure, and shout "NEXT"!


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

And one last thing regarding the Marbury trade. In that it's possible
Vapornic would never play for NY, and that the protected
first round pick probably won't be conferred until 2010, in the
near/mid-term, the trade boils down to an 18 yr old and the #16 pick for
Marbury. That is hardly a horrible deal and hardly "mortgaging our future".

Here are the #16 picks from the last 10 years:

Troy Bell
Jiri Welsch
Steven Hunter
Hidayet Türkoglu 
Ron Artest (better known to us as Frederick Weis)
Bryce Drew 
Brevin Knight 
Tony Delk 
Alan Henderson 
Cliff Rozier 

Other than Artest, the 1 goody of the 10 (who we should have had instead of French Toast) which are the ones you'd prefer we base our future on? You want say a Steven Hunter this year, and a Brevin Knight in 2010, instead of Marbury? That's the freakin' future you consider so untouchable?

And keep in mind that as picks can be traded away, and they can also be traded
for.

Houston was out so much during Marbury's time here, we've yet to see what a healthy Knicks can do.

Lets give our future a little time before we declare it lost.


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## THE COOKIE MONSTER (Apr 27, 2004)

I DONT KNOW DRAFTS ARE DEEPER NOW THAN THEY WERE 10 YEARS AGO


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Cookie monster, get the freaking crumbs out of your keyboard. Your caps lock key is stuck down and it's annoying as hell.

Yum yum.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

"Here are the #16 picks from the last 10 years:"

if we didnt get Stephon we'd be in the lottery.........or 8th seed considering how much the east sucks.

regardless, there was no way to get under the cap and Isiah was told to WIN NOW, not in 5 years when everybodys contract expires. we have some decent assets to trade this year (Williams, Deke and Othellas expiring contracts).


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>THE COOKIE MONSTER</b>!
> I DONT KNOW DRAFTS ARE DEEPER NOW THAN THEY WERE 10 YEARS AGO


Fabulous, so now you get 5.7mpg Troy Bell instead of Cliff Rozier.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> 
> if we didnt get Stephon we'd be in the lottery.........or 8th seed considering how much the east sucks.


Probably, though if it weren't Steph it would have been somebody. Layden would have traded youth or picks for another flatfooted veteran PF.

Just out of curiousity though, what is the difference in draft order between the 7th, 8th and 9th spot? None too significant I'd imagine.

You know we went to the lottery two year in a row and only have FW and Sweets to show for it. I like them both, but are either going to be real difference makers?


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## THE COOKIE MONSTER (Apr 27, 2004)

TROY BELL WOULD PLAY ON MOST TEAMS BUT THE GRIZZLIES ARE THE DEEPEST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Look, nothing against Bell, he may turn out to be one of the better people on that none too illustrious list. But so far he's played all of about 35 total minutes in his NBA career. I wouldn't COUNT on him being a difference maker. People talk about the Marbury trade as killing the Knicks chances at a championship, as though F-Will, Sweetney, Bell, are sure fire guys to deliver one?

Now cookie monster, you seem like a bright enough fellow to know that all caps is internet shouting. If you want to discuss things I'm happy to, but I'm not wiiling to have a shouting match with you. Until you turn off the caps I wont bother with your posts again.


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## GONYK (Aug 14, 2002)

btw, it's Vujanic


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> And one last thing regarding the Marbury trade. In that it's possible
> Vapornic would never play for NY, and that the protected
> first round pick probably won't be conferred until 2010, in the
> ...


Other than Marbury and Thomas you have no desireable assets to trade. You had the worst cap situation in the L and made it even worse with Zeke's trades. You are stuck and f'ed. But hey so are my Raps.


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## THE COOKIE MONSTER (Apr 27, 2004)

OH OK BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU ARE TOO GOOD TOO TALK TOO ME I UNDERSTAND


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

THE COOKIE MONSTER = Rashidi?


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GONYK</b>!
> 
> btw, it's Vujanic


I know how he spells it. I call him Vapornic because he's reminds me of vaporware. Not quite software, not quite hardware. It's a product that is announced but never brought to market.

Thus Vapor + Knick = Vapornic.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> Look, nothing against Bell, he may turn out to be one of the better people on that none too illustrious list. But so far he's played all of about 35 total minutes in his NBA career. I wouldn't COUNT on him being a difference maker. People talk about the Marbury trade as killing the Knicks chances at a championship, as though F-Will, Sweetney, Bell, are sure fire guys to deliver one?
> 
> Now cookie monster, you seem like a bright enough fellow to know that all caps is internet shouting. If you want to discuss things I'm happy to, but I'm not wiiling to have a shouting match with you. Until you turn off the caps I wont bother with your posts again.


The Knicks wouldn't be "counting" on those guys alone. With the Marbury trade, the Knicks also traded McDyess, a former star with an eight digit salary that is expiring this year. The Knicks also gave up Ward, another expiring contract, and Lampe, a guy with a six digit salary next year and a 1,000,000 dollar salary the following and is a perennial starter, possibly at center, which just doesn't exist in the Eastern Conference, and the rights to Vujanic, and who knows what he could have done. That alone would give the Knicks a slight edge. In return, the Knicks apprehended Marbury, who is a good player but with an outlandish contract which is going to choke the Knicks throughout his entire stay here, much like Houston's. Also aquired was Anfernee Hardaway, and assuming he uses his player option, he'll make just as much as Marbury next year and near it the following. The only contracts that come off this year are DemMarr Johnson's and Vin Baker's, the two lowest contracts on the team, respectively. The team's salary will actually go up next year, regardless of if they sign anybody, to a whopping $97,135,650, an average of $7 ,471,973.08 a player, and we haven't a single player that was in the top 50 in EFF per 48 minutes. The following year isn't any better, $91,640,107, and three players contracts expire, an average of $9,164,010.70 a player. All this on a group of players that will never advance past the first round of the playoffs, nice job Isiah. Oh yeah, and they lost a draft pick.

:upset: :sigh:


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>urwhatueati8god</b>!
> 
> THE COOKIE MONSTER = Rashidi?


That certainly crossed my mind too. He's certainly exhibiting many of the same symptoms.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> Other than Marbury and Thomas you have no desireable assets to trade.


I know where you are comming from, but it's not true in a literal sense. Other than Houston, Penny and Anderson, everyone else is tradable. Okay, TT might be a hard sell too, though I think he could give Jamison a run for the money at 6th man of the year, and Jamison has a way larger contrtact, and is still mentioned in all kind of trade proposals.

But Nazr at about 5M is desirable, Sweeteny and Williams, Moochie sucks but isn't unmovable at 3.5M, and Deke and Othella are expiring contracts. So add in Marbury, TT and KT and all told you have 9 pretty movable contracts. Nobody's knocking down the door for most of them, but all are movable and more than not are desirable.



> You had the worst cap situation in the L and made it even worse with Zeke's trades. You are stuck and f'ed. But hey so are my Raps.


True, but in 2 years all kinds of Sh!t is gonna break loose around here when TT and Pnny's contracts expire freeing 30M in trade value. The following year Houston and Shandon free up almost the same. That's 60 M to spend over two years, to add to our 29 year old all-star PG and emerging youth.

Two years folks and we can binge again on new talent. With the other route Lampe might just be earning 25mpg, Vapornic might just be signing a new contract with Bologna, and we might be waiving a couple of bust draft picks.

Sheet, think about it, when Houston went down that left VH as the best player on this team. Please don't talk to me about championships with VH as the best player on the team.


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## THE COOKIE MONSTER (Apr 27, 2004)

WHY ARE YOU MAKING FUN OF ME I'M NOT RASHEED WALLACE


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Welcome back. How's your girlfriend?

Congratulations on finding a way to be just as annoying with posts that take 1/10th the time. :|


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

So someone wanna start a thread breaking down what teams are going to be offering and what needs for them we can fill.


I presonally want to attaack miami, I really want Butler, his stock is low he is a good defender, young, and I think could be had for the right price on a team with no big men or point guard.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Miami is a young team that made it to the second round on a low salary, why the heck would they want any of our garbage?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>urwhatueati8god</b>!
> Miami is a young team that made it to the second round on a low salary, why the heck would they want any of our garbage?



Riley is obsessed with having a big man,and he knows LO is going to take to much punishment at the 4 to remain effective. He also knows he can't play both Caron and Wade at the SG as both should be starting.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

So they'll trade Butler for Mohammad or Mutumbo? I think not. Probably not Kurt "fouls out a lot" Thomas either.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>urwhatueati8god</b>!
> So they'll trade Butler for Mohammad or Mutumbo? I think not. Probably not Kurt "fouls out a lot" Thomas either.


Thomas and get me under the cap Mutombo.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Then who plays SF for the Heat? How do we get rid of TT? To many outliers.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Caron can play the two, very easily.


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