# Did Lebron live up to the hype?



## wild_style (Feb 26, 2004)

now i will be the first to say that lebron had an awesome rookie year, and he looks as though a great career lies ahead.
but after all the hype coming into the league, all the "next MJ" status put onto him, all the 'greatest of all time' labels, did his rookie year live up to expectations, and has his olympics performace affected your oppinion?


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

It went far beyond expectations. I predicted he'd do something along the lines of 10/4/4 his rookie year, while very often looking like the HS kid that he is. He came in and did no such thing, being a legit all-star contender from the get-go.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

Really a high school player averaging 21/6/6 is unheard of he lived up to all the hype and then some


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## wild_style (Feb 26, 2004)

i actually thought he was going to average around 20 a game, but the 6 and 6 was the thing that really stands out to me about his rookie year, his numbers are absolutely incredible


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Hmmm... I found LBJ´s rookie season somewhat underachieving...

Don´t get me wrong: i think he is already an exciting player and has all the potential to become one of the Top-5 players in a couple of years...

But his hype (wich wasn´t really his doing) was so great that i sincerely expected more.

Disregarding the fact that he was, what, 18? last season and coming straight from high school, i assumed he would do better.

In fact, averaging 39.5mpg in the season and getting all the touches in offense (mainly after the Davis trade), he didn´t do much more than Carmelo (only one year older). On the other hand, his .417FG% is simply horrible.

"But he is just a kid", you´d say, and rightfully so.
But this kid was MADE to be the Next Michael Jordan; the "Choosen1", the 100mill shoe deal, etc., etc...

So, taken that into account, i say he dind´t live up to the hype * in his rookie season *.
But only because the hype was sooooo out of hand...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

well only two rookies ever put up numbers like that, the Big O and MJ. And neither did it straight from High School. So I'd say he surpassed the hype.

I knew he'd be really good. But I didn't honestly expect the 21/6/6.

And the Cavs looked like they were actually going to go to the playoffs this year, at one point even challenging for home court. Which was very suprising.

I will say in the olympics he has yet to meet my expectations. But that's mainly because LB doesn't put him on the floor enough. When he is out there in the brief time, he's looked like one of the best players on the team already. Him, Wade, Iverson, and Duncan have been consistently the top 4 players.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> Disregarding the fact that he was, what, 18? last season and coming straight from high school, i assumed he would do better.


How can you disregard that? He's still a kid who is 19 years from his physical prime, was known to lack a good jumper, and still put up 21/6/6.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

The only disappointment that I had regarding LeBron was the fact that he didn't really generate as many free throws as you'd think from a player with his athletic ability. Otherwise he seriously exceeded every goal that I had for him.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

He exeeded all the hype.


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## prlindo (Aug 22, 2004)

Stats are for geeks, He didn't get his team or lead to playoffs like Carmelo did


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>prlindo</b>!
> Stats are for geeks, He didn't get his team or lead to playoffs like Carmelo did


Let's see...

Jeff McInnis, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Darius Miles, Tony Battie, Eric Williams, Carlos Boozer, and LeBron. Z, Miles, Battie, and Williams are all such underacheivers its funny. McInnis was good, but not there long enough. And Boozer was the consummate overacheiver, who looked great playing next to a guy like LeBron to take all the focus off him. 

Marcus Camby, Nene, Vashon Lenard, Andre Miller, Jon Barry, Earl Boykins, and Carmelo. You've got shooters, dirty workers, a true PG, two defensively good big men, a low-post threat. Miller didn't play his best, but he was still servicable. Barry and Lenard can shoot, Nene, Barry, and Boykins do dirty work, Nene and Camby are post defenders, and Camby is a low-post threat. 

Who do you think had the better cast?


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>prlindo</b>!
> Stats are for geeks, He didn't get his team or lead to playoffs like Carmelo did


Let's not take this thread in that direction. This thread is about the individual performance of LeBron James, not his team and not Carmelo Anthony.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Well that depends, the average basketball no nothing was saying LeBron was gonna be like Michael Jordan in his first year... But an actual basketball FAN and a knowledgeable one, never set the bar that high and LeBron far surpassed any real NBA fans expectations. Including myself...


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## prlindo (Aug 22, 2004)

Carmelo played in the west if Carmelo was on the east he would of took his team futher Come on MAKING the playoffs in the western conference in your first year from a medicore team?


Boozer and Big Z are very good players Come on you're telling me Lebron can't finish ahead of the Celtics?


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*hype = playoffs.*

I don't think he matched the hype personally, he was made out to be a bigger stronger Magic, but he couldn't even get his team into the playoffs in the weak East. People will say "ah look at his weak cast". Fact is he had one of the few true centers in the league and couldn't get anywhere. We'll see what happens this year, because he looks to be improving with Brown's tutelage.

And for that 20/5/5 thing, it doesn't mean much really its just a cheap way for the media to connect him with Jordan and Robertson. I could just as easily say, only two rookies in history averaged over 27/5/5 out the gate, simple manipulation of statistics. Educate yourself.


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

I would have to say that LeBron more than lived up to the hype.

Great all around player. Should have been chosen to the all star game as a rookie out of HS. Amazing!

Where does he stand as an all time rookie?

Nobody I have seen has had the kind of rookie season that Magic had, during which he played center for the Lakers in the final game of the Championship and they won.

Jordan had a great rookie season with over 28 points per game and he led his team to the playoffs where they were swept.

The Big O had an amazing rookie year.

As far as Rookies who helped transform their teams into instant winners:

Bird
David Robinson
Tim Duncan
Russell

None of these players came right out of high school.

LeBron did not have the greatest rookie year of all time but he did have by far the best rookie year for a player right out of school and he ranks in the top 10 for rookies that I have seen play. 

Yes, he lived up to the hype


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>prlindo</b>!
> Carmelo played in the west if Carmelo was on the east he would of took his team futher Come on MAKING the playoffs in the western conference *in your first year from a medicore team?*
> 
> 
> Boozer and Big Z are very good players Come on you're telling me Lebron can't finish ahead of the Celtics?


Since when is

PG-Andre Miller
SG - Vashon Leonard
SF - Carmelo
PF - NeNe
C - Marcus Camby

Bench - 
Jon Barry
Earl Boykins
Chris Anderson
Rodney White

A mediocre team?


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> Since when is
> ...


Well, they won about half their games, so by just about any definition of the word "mediocre," they were a mediocre team. But that doesn't have anything to do with LeBron James.

I would say that his stats were much better than what I expected, but his impact on the Cavs' success was a little bit below what I expected. If I had known before the season started that Carlos Boozer would have as good of a year as he did, I would have assumed that Cleveland was a playoff team. But they weren't, because they couldn't play defense or hit an outside jump shot. LeBron was as much to blame for those things as anyone, and I thought he'd be a better shooter and defender than he was.


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## prlindo (Aug 22, 2004)

Lebron should of went to NCAA and won somethign like Carmelo instead of buying tickets to playoff games stop offering these kids so much money and sneaker contracts ! Let them enjoy atleast a year at college its best for them


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

Well i think prlindo= our famous friend prjose lol
And sherako would mother carmelos baby 
hmmm.......


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>prlindo</b>!
> Lebron should of went to NCAA and won somethign like Carmelo instead of buying tickets to playoff games stop offering these kids so much money and sneaker contracts ! Let them enjoy atleast a year at college its best for them


So let me get this straight...

Say you're in high school. 

You really like...let's say business and accounting. Over your four years of high school you take all of the accounting classes you can, get really good at it, attend seminars and things on your summer breaks so you can get even better at it. 

Then, during your senior year you realize that hey, you're really good at this stuff, and you can go to any college you want for free. They'd love to have you, you have all of these awards, and reccomendations, and everything.

But then some guy, approaches you before you graduate. Says his name is Robert Willumstad, President of Citigroup, the world's top company right now in your field. Says he likes your potential, sees big things from you. You know enough to get by to start, and he says he'll teach you the rest as you go along, and you'll earn millions in bonuses and stock options over the years. 

You tell him you're gonna turn down that job and not make the millions now to go to college for a year?


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: hype = playoffs.*



> Originally posted by <b>sherako</b>!
> I don't think he matched the hype personally, he was made out to be a bigger stronger Magic, but he couldn't even get his team into the playoffs in the weak East. People will say "ah look at his weak cast". Fact is he had one of the few true centers in the league and couldn't get anywhere. We'll see what happens this year, because he looks to be improving with Brown's tutelage.
> 
> And for that 20/5/5 thing, it doesn't mean much really its just a cheap way for the media to connect him with Jordan and Robertson. I could just as easily say, only two rookies in history averaged over 27/5/5 out the gate, simple manipulation of statistics. Educate yourself.


The team was horribly flawed with no defensive stopers , no consistant shooters , and a good shotblocker(not even factoring in the 1600 trades they did which caused no chemistry). Basketball is a team game and you need a good supporting cast.


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## brazys (Jul 17, 2002)

I remember before last season's fantasy basketball drafts I thought to myself: "A rookie from high school? No more than 13-14 ppg 5rb 3ast with horrible percentages and loads of turnovers". So statistically speaking, he definitely lived up to my expectations.

I would call his impact on Cavs team winning-wise quite visible too, because the season before cavs won 17 games.

His Olympic performance was allright too - he is a good energy spark from the bench. As most of his Olympic teammates he can't shoot though, and this aspect of his game needs serious development. His defensive ability will come with experience. 

It seems he keeps winning as nr 1 goal and satisfaction, and that makes me feel optimistic about his future.


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## radronOmega (Aug 1, 2004)

*re*

Another question, had Lebron entered Ohio State for college would he of won as many NCAA titles as years he has been in college? If he had been in college 4 years could he of had 4 championships???


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

LeBron James had a much better year than I expected, and I was one of his big supporters.

He also led the Cavaliers to many more wins than they had the season before.

I would say James exceeded his hype by a fair amount.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*doesnt work like that child*



> Originally posted by <b>SamTheMan67</b>!
> And sherako would mother carmelos baby
> hmmm.......


:no: :sigh: :uhoh:


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: doesnt work like that child*



> Originally posted by <b>sherako</b>!
> 
> 
> :no: :sigh: :uhoh:


Im just joshin ya sherako.... but i know you would haha


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## prlindo (Aug 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Matt85163</b>!
> 
> 
> So let me get this straight...
> ...



No will turn that down, Im saying guys need to stop offering big contracts before they play games Let Lebron enjoy a year or 2 at college dominant there and go to the NBA I think it benefits him more


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*Re: Re: doesnt work like that child*



> Originally posted by <b>SamTheMan67</b>!
> 
> Im just joshin ya sherako.... but i know you would haha


:no: :sigh: :uhoh:


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

It's funny how it's pretty much impossible to mention LeBron's name without someone bringing up Carmelo.

And vice versa.

Those two are siamese twins for the rest of their careers.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> Hmmm... I found LBJ´s rookie season somewhat underachieving...
> 
> Don´t get me wrong: i think he is already an exciting player and has all the potential to become one of the Top-5 players in a couple of years...
> ...


If you honestly thought Lebron was going to do better than 21/6/6 in rookie season, you need to find a new sport to follow. James exceed even the most unrealistic expectations anybody possibly could have had for an 18 year old rookie, and actually played better than his stats show. 

Now if you're just ripping the kid because he shot 42% and you miss your showtime days in the 1980's when everybody shot 50% because nobody played defense....

well, then I'd also find a new sport to follow...


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

i think he exceeded expectations by alot in some ways, and didn't in some other ways.

his production certainly exceeded expectations.

the uniqueness of his game may not have exceeded expectations.

he showed much more of a jordan game than a magic game. the magic part was supposed to be what separates him from the other 2's we've seen before him.

he still seems to show a feel for the game (well, at least the no-look pass) that exceeds his counterparts. how much he hones this feel for the game will determine, imo, how he separates himself from his peers.

he has enough raw basketball talent to shine without that, but to fully realize his potential, imo, that's the path. we'll see how much of a priority this is for lebron and the cavs coaching staff. the immediate may override the long-term.


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## prlindo (Aug 22, 2004)

lol I don't get how people call him King James before the NBA draft and he can't even carry a team with Boozer and Big Z former all star to the playoffs atleast ofr an 8th seed Carmelo did it in the WEST a much harder thing to do


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>prlindo</b>!
> lol I don't get how people call him King James before the NBA draft and he can't even carry a team with Boozer and Big Z former all star to the playoffs atleast ofr an 8th seed Carmelo did it in the WEST a much harder thing to do


LeBron and Boozer did their best with the Cavs, but the fact was that the team was a mess. They had almost 20 different starters last season, can you even imagine trying to lead a team like that somewhere, let alone in your first year out of High School?

He did a great job leading that team, and for someone who was so overworked he never cracked. He had to play point guard, a position he had never played before, for a few months because their only point guard on the roster to start the season was Kevin Ollie!

Few rookies ever have had such scrutiny and such a demanding situation.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>prlindo</b>!
> lol I don't get how people call him King James before the NBA draft and he can't even carry a team with Boozer and Big Z former all star to the playoffs atleast ofr an 8th seed Carmelo did it in the WEST a much harder thing to do


Yeah Big Z and Boozer are soooo good. 
The Cavs had to add Lebron, Mcinnis, Eric Williams, and Tony Battie to that team just to get them competitive.

Z only really contributed the second half of the season. And Boozer doesn't win games for you. He's like a poor man's elton brand in that he gets nice enough stats, but he doesn't carry your team to victory.

The Cavs are on the right track. Boozer and Z gave up after Mcinnis went down. The only reason they won even 1 game once Mcinnis went down is because Lebron went off on New Jersey.

Boozer and Z are way overrated. You can't build a team around either of them.


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## Jesus_Walks (Jul 11, 2004)

lebron most definitely surpass my expections, to tell u the truth i thought he was gonna put up darius miles number 9/5/3, didnt think he was gonna have much impact because he was a highschooler.
as for lebrons cavs, i remember everyone thinkin they'll be the worst team in the L again this year, and the cavs suprised me with a 9th place finish in the east.
lebron has certainly lived up and surpass the hype as for his rookie season


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

To be competely honest, as only I can, LeBron disappointed me greatly.

I thought he'd average 25 8 and 8 on 47.6% shooting. Let's face facts: the guy simply didn't live up to his billing.

You say he was 18 years old? I say: 18 years old, shmateteen years old. I was once 18 years old. Big deal.

You say he came in with ungodly hype? I say: so did Mike Miller, but that didn't stop him from winning ROY, now did it?

You say he was a rookie who had to be the focal point of a horrible franchise and had to deal with Ricky "Resentful Cancerous Green-Eyed Substance" Davis? I say: shut up with your cold, hard truth and let me revel in my LeBron hatred, you SOB.

Carmelo is the best player in the NBA.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> To be competely honest, as only I can, LeBron disappointed me greatly.
> 
> I thought he'd average 25 8 and 8 on 47.6% shooting. Let's face facts: the guy simply didn't live up to his billing.
> ...


:grinning: Good post!


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, they won about half their games, so by just about any definition of the word "mediocre," they were a mediocre team. But that doesn't have anything to do with LeBron James.
> ...


My feelings exactly ArtestFan. 



> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> If you honestly thought Lebron was going to do better than 21/6/6 in rookie season, you need to find a new sport to follow. James exceed even the most unrealistic expectations anybody possibly could have had for an 18 year old rookie, and actually played better than his stats show.
> ...


Um, didn't you once say Sam Cassell was a slasher?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> I would say that his stats were much better than what I expected, but his impact on the Cavs' success was a little bit below what I expected. If I had known before the season started that Carlos Boozer would have as good of a year as he did, I would have assumed that Cleveland was a playoff team. But they weren't, because they couldn't play defense or hit an outside jump shot. LeBron was as much to blame for those things as anyone, and I thought he'd be a better shooter and defender than he was.


That sums up my thoughts on his rookie season.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, they won about half their games, so by just about any definition of the word "mediocre," they were a mediocre team. But that doesn't have anything to do with LeBron James.
> ...


I'm actually gonna defend LeBron here.

How did you realistically expect LeBron to be a better defender and shooter than you thought he would, coming straight out of HS where these things aren't exactly a priority when you're a 6'9 240 lb athletic monster?

He was never taught defense. He never really had to develop a consistent jump shot. In HS he mostly got on by his athletic ability and court vision.

Shooting and defense isn't something that people develop when they're 18 years old. That comes with age.

Can you name a rookie guard who came in as a good defender, passer, shooter, and overall scorer? Much less one that came straight out of HS. It's not likely. LeBron was a good scorer and passer last season. He'll develop the jumper and defense (which has already improved a large amount at Athens) with time.

Besides, how did you expect LeBron to have a consistent jumper in the NBA when that's what every single person said his major weakness in HS was? Like he'd magically develop a sweet stroke during the summer?

Your expectations were unrealistically high.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> If you honestly thought Lebron was going to do better than 21/6/6 in rookie season, you need to find a new sport to follow.


Off course, i never thought that... In fact, there were severall threads in the start of the season where i stated that Lebron wouldn´t exactly turn the world on fire...



> James exceed even the most unrealistic expectations anybody possibly could have had for an 18 year old rookie, and actually played better than his stats show.


That is, off course, your opinion, and i respect that... But i just can´t agree with the "exceeding expectations" remark...

He was 18 years old, wasn't he? That´s exactly my point... No one of sane mind would ever think that an 18 year old straight out of highschool (and not beiong a post player) could make an instant splash in the league...

The topic of this thread was LBJ living up to the hype, not if LBJ had a great rookie year or would LBJ become one of the greatest...

So my honest answer was NO. He didn´t live up to the hype. AGAIN, because the hype was so out of hand.... 



> Now if you're just ripping the kid because he shot 42% and you miss your showtime days in the 1980's when everybody shot 50% because nobody played defense....
> 
> well, then I'd also find a new sport to follow...


The fact that LBJ shot 42% only reinforces the fact that he wasn´t *completely ready * for pro ball... Do you think an NBA superstar should be making 42% of his shots? Please... (and no, i´m not therealdeal...)

I´m eager (sp?) to watch LBJ´s following seasons... but i homestly believe he has a long way to go to live up to the hype created around him...


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Lebron would have lead his team to the playoffs if Mccinnis hadn't gone down.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you think an NBA superstar should be making 42% of his shots? Please...


have you looked at Paul Pierce's, Allen Iverson's, Baron Davis's, or even Tracy McGrady's shooting percentages lately? They're no better than Lebron's, and they're all in their mid-20s or older. Are they not superstars (or close)?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> 
> have you looked at Paul Pierce's, Allen Iverson's, Baron Davis's, or even Tracy McGrady's shooting percentages lately? They're no better than Lebron's, and they're all in their mid-20s or older. Are they not superstars (or close)?


McGrady´s career FG% is .447.
His last year (shooting .417FG%) was a fluke that i believe won´t happen again...

The rest of those guys i don´t consider superstars...


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> McGrady´s career FG% is .447.
> ...


If you dont consider guys like Peirce and Iverson superstar guards, who is a superstar guard? Kobe? He shot .438, 2% better than LeBron, not a gigantic difference. Carter shot 42%, Marbury shot 43%, Kidd shot 38%. If Iverson and Peirce AREN'T superstars, what guards are? For high-shot volume guards, 42% isn't that bad compared to the rest of the league. Sure there is alot of room for improvement, but plenty of established guards shoot low percentages too.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Sam Cassell baby


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HeinzGuderian</b>!
> 
> If you dont consider guys like Peirce and Iverson superstar guards, who is a superstar guard?


There are 2: T-Mac and Kobe Bryant (IMHO)



> Kobe? He shot .438, 2% better than LeBron, not a gigantic difference.


Kobe´s career FG% is .454.
He once scored 30ppg on .451FG%...



> Carter shot 42%, Marbury shot 43%, Kidd shot 38%. If Iverson and Peirce AREN'T superstars, what guards are?


Only 2: T-Mac and Kobe (IMHO)



> For high-shot volume guards, 42% isn't that bad compared to the rest of the league. Sure there is alot of room for improvement, but plenty of established guards shoot low percentages too.


"Isn´t that bad" doesn´t cut it for me, regarding "superstars"... unless it´s a fluke year (like T-Mac´s...)


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> The fact that LBJ shot 42% only reinforces the fact that he wasn´t completely ready for pro ball... *Do you think an NBA superstar should be making 42% of his shots?* Please... (and no, i´m not therealdeal...)


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!


Nice effort.:greatjob: 

See post above.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Is Jermaine O'Neal not a superstar then?


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Nice effort.:greatjob:
> ...


Your argument is so incredibly bad. Don't you realize that? You're getting on an 18 year old rookie who scored 20 ppg and shot 42%, and we point out several superstar guards who shoot just as bad. These guys have been in the league several years, and you're getting on an *18 year old rookie* about it.

Don't you see how ridiculous that is?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

lebron ranked 160th out of 200 players who played 40+ games and 20+ min/game in ppfga. he was 2nd lowest of all players averaging 18+ ppg (iverson was lowest). 32 players were over 18 ppg. of players over 15 ppg, he was 53rd out of 58.

it's something he needs to work on.

btw, kobe ranked 36th overall, tmac 84th, pierce 99th, carter 136th, iverson 175th (and jerm 158th).


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Is Jermaine O'Neal not a superstar then?


I gather you´re adressing me...
I may be too old-fashioned on my criteria, but i find it to be only 5 players today worthy of the label "superstars": Shaq, Duncan, KG, Kobe and T-Mac (in no particular order!!!!!!!!!).

These are the ones i regard in the upper plateau. 
In *my* second echelon (sp?), Jermaine O´Neal wouldn´t be there... but that´s a whole different ball game...


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Would Dirk be in that 2nd echeleon



Also, your go in GM draft


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> Your argument is so incredibly bad. Don't you realize that? You're getting on an 18 year old rookie who scored 20 ppg and shot 42%, and we point out several superstar guards who shoot just as bad. These guys have been in the league several years, and you're getting on an *18 year old rookie* about it.
> 
> Don't you see how ridiculous that is?


I´m not "getting on" anyone... i was just adressing the thread topic...
If no one was calling that exact same 18 year old rookie "Jesus on Earth" i wouldn´t have a problem with that...

AGAIN, it´s not LBJ´s fault he was so hyped... I love his game and most of all i love his *aproach* to the game...

If everyone said Amare Stoudemire was "the choosen one" i would still say it´s rookie year left something to be desired...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Would Dirk be in that 2nd echeleon


Yes. Undoubtedly (sp?)



> Also, your go in GM draft


Don´t push me, dude!  
I must think this way over!!!


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> I´m not "getting on" anyone... i was just adressing the thread topic...
> ...


Oh. So LeBron didn't live up to the hype because he only shot 42% from the field, ignoring that whole "21 6 and 6" thing and turning around the Cavs franchise. The latter was something nobody *expected* him to do, yet somehow he didn't live up to *expectations*.

Gotcha.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> Oh. So LeBron was didn't live up to the hype because he only shot 42% from the field, ignoring that whole "21 6 and 6" thing and turning around the Cavs franchise. It was something nobody *expected* him to do, yet somehow he didn't live up to *expectations*.
> 
> Gotcha.


By that same exact logic, Carmelo Anthony, who at 19, had a 21/6/3 (2.8) season WHILE getting the Nuggets to the playoffs it´s God´s gift to basketball?

Did the media even SUGGEST/HINTED Melo could have that kind of season?


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> By that same exact logic, Carmelo Anthony, who at 19, had a 21/6/3 (2.8) season WHILE getting the Nuggets to the playoffs it´s God´s gift to basketball?
> ...


Melo was actually very hyped pre-season. I don't know where you were. The kid led his college team to a national championship as a Freshman and was probably the best player in the entire tournament. He was hyped up like crazy. Not as much as LeBron, but he got his fair share of hype. People were talking about Melo/LeBron showdowns before the season ever started.

Besides, there's a considerable difference between spending a year in college playing under a good coach and coming straight from HS.

Maybe you're just threatened by the constant LeBron/Magic comparisons? That's who everyone likened him to preseason. A huge guard with special court vision. Magic. LeBron.

Same reason all the MJ fans hate Kobe, I guess.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> Do you think an NBA superstar should be making 42% of his shots? Please... (and no, i´m not therealdeal...)


Ok, if you don't find LBJ to be a superstar, then don't get on his case for shooting 42%. Comparing LBJ to Kobe or Tmac right now is inane.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> Melo was actually very hyped pre-season.


Can you honestly say he was as much hyped as LeBron?



> I don't know where you were.


In Europe. And unawear (sp?) Melo had something like a 100million shoe deal...



> The kid led his college team to a national championship as a Freshman and was probably the best player in the entire tournament. He was hyped up like crazy. Not as much as LeBron, but he got his fair share of hype.


Then why, must i ask, he wasn´t MUCH MORE hyped than LBJ?



> People were talking about Melo/LeBron showdowns before the season ever started.


True. Then what?



> Besides, there's a considerable difference between spending a year in college playing under a good coach and coming straight from HS.


Exactly my point. How can one uber-hype a highschool kid so much? It´s crazy!!!



> Maybe you're just threatened by the constant LeBron/Magic comparisons? That's who everyone likened him to preseason. A huge guard with special court vision. Magic. LeBron.


Before the season started i´ve stated in numerous threads LBJ could NEVER equal Magic´s brilliance on the court...
Now it seems he will play SF....
There goes the chance of a comparison!!!



> Same reason all the MJ fans hate Kobe, I guess.


Pure Basketball fans hating on Kobe´s play are idiots, IMHO. I was a MJ hater since day one, but i still saw his magnitude...


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Some guy in 194 joined the Bulls, and improved them by 11 wins, from 27-55 to 38-44. He scored 28 with 6 and 6 as a 21-year old rookie, coming off 3 years in a tremendous NCAA program at NC.

The next year they were 7-11 when he had a seaon-ending injury. The following year he led the league with 37ppg, but his team still had a losing record. He still couldn't shoot a trey to save his life, by this point he was 24/136, a career 17.6% treyshooter.

The Cavs were 17-65 before Lebron. They improved by 18 wins to 35-47, more than double their win total. He was 21-6-6 as an 18/19 year old rookie coming straight out of high school.

His feeble 63 treys at 29% in one season still beats the hell out of 24/136. And he shot 44% from inside the arc.

His "terrible" .417 matched a couple of guys you may have heard of, Tracy McGrady and Vince Carter. (Also superstars on losing teams...)

It was better than:
Chris Webber
Latrell Sprewell
Steve Francis
Paul Pierce
Baron Davis
and Chauncy Billups (only the NBA Champ-MVP)

Anyone who says Lebron didn't live up to the hype is a hater.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Drewbs</b>!
> 
> 
> Ok, if you don't find LBJ to be a superstar,


I don´t.



> then don't get on his case for shooting 42%. Comparing LBJ to Kobe or Tmac right now is inane.


Who did it? Off course it´s insane. Who said otherwise???


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> Some guy in 194 joined the Bulls, and improved them by 11 wins, from 27-55 to 38-44. He scored 28 with 6 and 6 as a 21-year old rookie, coming off 3 years in a tremendous NCAA program at NC.
> 
> The next year they were 7-11 when he had a seaon-ending injury. The following year he led the league with 37ppg, but his team still had a losing record. He still couldn't shoot a trey to save his life, by this point he was 24/136, a career 17.6% treyshooter.
> ...


* IF LEBRON JAMES HAD SCORED SOMETHING LIKE 30PPG ON THOSE KIND OF SHOOTING PERCENTAGES, MAYBE YOU WOULD HAVE A POINT!!!!! * 

For the rest, read my posts in this thread..


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Can you honestly say he was as much hyped as LeBron?


No, that's why in the following sentence I said "not as much as LeBron".



> In Europe. And unawear (sp?) Melo had something like a 100million shoe deal...


Uh.. ok. And Melo didn't get a multi million dollar shoe deal from Nike for being obscure.



> Then why, must i ask, he wasn´t MUCH MORE hyped than LBJ?


Because LeBron's the best and most complete HS player ever, and Melo was an excellent college player, something we've seen many times before. No one ever saw a player like LeBron. It's no coincidence he's had the best rookie season of any player ever coming out of HS.



> True. Then what?


It was a response to your ridiculous "did the media even suggest that Melo could have a great season?" Yes. That's why he was so hyped and compared to LeBron. Once again, I reiterate, he wasn't as hyped as LeBron. But Melo was very very hyped.



> Exactly my point. How can one uber-hype a highschool kid so much? It´s crazy!!!


Why is it crazy? He was hyped for a reason. He's really freaking good.



> Before the season started i´ve stated in numerous threads LBJ could NEVER equal Magic´s brilliance on the court...
> Now it seems he will play SF....
> There goes the chance of a comparison!!!


You just basically proved my point. You obviously got pissed at the LeBron/Magic comparisons, so that's why you have something against him now. It's blatantly obvious.

"Didn't exceed the hype." Heh. LeBron isn't one of my favorite players by any stretch, and I've argued *against* him more than I've argued against any single other player. Ever.

But saying he didn't exceed the hype is just ridiculous.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> Can you name a rookie guard who came in as a good defender, passer, shooter, and overall scorer? Much less one that came straight out of HS. It's not likely. LeBron was a good scorer and passer last season. He'll develop the jumper and defense (which has already improved a large amount at Athens) with time.


Are you seriously saying, "Sure, LeBron James couldn't shoot or play defense, but that's OK, neither can Ndudi Ebi?" What? LeBron was supposed to be able to do things that no rookie from high school had ever done. If you even have to make the excuse that "Tracy McGrady couldn't do it either when he was a rookie," you're admitting that the answer to the question this thread asked, is no.

Remember how much Cleveland sucked at the beginning of the year? They only improved when they brought in some nice veteran role players like Eric Williams, Tony Battie and Jeff McInnis. Just adding LeBron didn't make them that much better at all. Yes, I did expect a guy who people were saying was already a great all-around player, to add more W's than he did.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> Because LeBron's the best and most complete HS player ever,


YOU MUST BE COMPLETELY OUT OF YOUR MIND!!!!
YOU OBVIOULY DON´T REMEMBER A CERTAIN LEW ALCINDOR OR A CERTAIN KID WHO BROLE WILT CHAMBERLAIN´S SCORING RECORD IN HIGHSCHOOL!!!

Sorry. Ol´boy, but your credibility has just gone to shambles...

I won´t adress this again with you, since you are clearly so biased....


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Hype can be very subjective, but no one can deny that Lebron James is the real deal. There is no nonsense with this guy, except for the fact that he is plainly amazing on court. There has not been a single guy like him before in the past. Some one this good and in such physical condition at such a young age, theres no telling what the future holds for him.


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## dmilesai (Jul 19, 2002)

Anyone who expected Lebron to do better than he did is on crack. He FAR exceeded expectations....Reasonable people were expecting about 16/5/5.


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## dmilesai (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> YOU MUST BE COMPLETELY OUT OF YOUR MIND!!!!
> ...


He said COMPLETE player....Could Kareem run an offense? Did Kareem have a 40 inch vert? Could Kareem pop 3's? Did he already have a mans body in HS? Didn't think so.

Lebron is the most complete HS player ever, but maybe not the best to play HS ball.


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## BigMike (Jun 12, 2002)

HELL YES he lived up to the hype.

To those who expected more, are you kidding me? He's 19 years old, months removed from HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL, and as a ROOKIE averaged 21/6/6. Not only were his stats insane, but he created matchup problems from hell for every team in the NBA, and always played big-time when he was on centerstage. Remember his great he was in his first game? Remember the show he put on that show with T-Mac on Christmas?

Anybody who think he's been dissappointing in any way is a complete idiot...no offense. Considering what he's already accomplished, and also considering that he's likely to become the best player in the league maybe as early as late next season, he's been anything but dissappointing. 

He hasn't just lived up the unbelievable hype, he exceeded it...which, if you were to think about that before the season, is a very scary thought.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> YOU MUST BE COMPLETELY OUT OF YOUR MIND!!!!
> ...


:laugh:

Who am I biased against? Who am I biased for? Didn't I just tell you that LeBron isn't one of my favorite players and I've argued against him more often than any other player?

YOU'RE calling ME biased? The guy who thinks Magic was a superior player to MJ is calling me biased. I love it.

LeBron was a better HS player than Kobe and Kareem. And Wilt. 

He took crappy players who were never going to be Division 1 players and went up against teams with several Division 1 prospects... and beat them all. He defines "making teammates better".

Good job ignoring all my other points too. :greatjob:


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dmilesai</b>!
> 
> 
> He said COMPLETE player....Could Kareem run an offense? Did Kareem have a 40 inch vert? Could Kareem pop 3's? Did he already have a mans body in HS? Didn't think so.
> ...


For the record... He said THE BEST...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> LeBron was a better HS player than Kobe and Kareem. And Wilt.


Sorry, Sprigg, but this was too much amusing for me to ignore... 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## BigMike (Jun 12, 2002)

I'll raise the bar a bit here...LeBron may be the most complete BASKETBALL player ever, not just high school...at least he has the potential to be.

Well... maybe not quite yet...but his physical gifts are mind-boggling. He's one of the best prospects ever in any sport, because physically he has absolutely no weaknesses. 6'8, 245 pound player who can play 4 positions (has the physical tools to play the 4 if necessary.) Combine that with his strength, speed (dude's faster than hell!!!) ridiculous court vision/passing ability, and his mind-boggling run-jump, he's clearly the best athlete in the game today, and maybe the best athlete in the game ever...up there with MJ, Wilt, Dr J, etc. 


Add all that to a great work ethic and unselfish, almost cerebral approach to the game, and LeBron's potential has no limits. I really don't think people understand how unbelievable he could be.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry, Sprigg, but this was too much amusing for me to ignore...
> ...


State your case then. Have fun with it.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> State your case then. Have fun with it.





> Alcindor led Power Memorial to New York City Catholic High School championship in 1963, 1964 and 1965, racking up 2,067 points and 2,002 rebounds in his prep career, both New York City records. In his sophomore season, he became the first soph to make Parade's high school All-American team. Wrote ESPN.com's Sam Smith: "The greatest hype? I'd have to say it was for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, then named Lew Alcindor. High school games weren't televised back then, but we did have TV and even a couple of stations. When Alcindor was at Power Memorial High School, his game against Morgan Wooten's DeMatha powerhouse was a national story, especially since Power hadn't lost for several years. DeMatha won, and Alcindor went to UCLA and didn't lose again for several years.





> 8. Wilt Chamberlain (Overbrook High School, Philadelphia)
> In a preview of what would come when he hit the NBA, Chamberlain scored a city-record 90 points in one game his senior year, even though he only played about 28 minutes (he ran off 60 points during one 10-minute run). He also averaged 50 points a game for the first 16 games of his senior year, and he ended his prep career with 2,206 points. Overbrook won city titles his junior and senior years, and Chamberlain was recruited by more than 200 colleges before choosing Kansas. You know the rest of his story.


Source

Or


> At age 9, Lew Jr. tried his first hook shot. He missed, but it felt natural. He was already 5-8. As an eighth grader he stood 6-8 and could dunk.
> 
> As a sophomore at Power Memorial, he averaged 19 points and 18 rebounds as Power went undefeated. It went unbeaten again in Alcindor's junior season. The next year, for the first time in 72 games, Alcindor and Power lost, beaten 46-43 by DeMatha Catholic High School of Maryland. Alcindor, who had been averaging 30 points, was held to 16. It was his only loss in his last three years. He finished his career at Power in 1965 with 2,067 points and 2,002 rebounds (both New York City records).


 Source


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Very good. Now go look up the stuff LeBron did in high school, since you don't seem very aware of it.

Look at this. The guy says exactly what I said! And he actually *saw* Kareem in person.



> "He is the best high school player ever. Ever," stresses Los Angeles Clippers scout Evan Pickman, a 57-year-old New Yorker *who saw Lew Alcindor play in high school before he became Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*. "LeBron was better in high school than Alcindor, Kobe [Bryant] and Moses Malone. I say that because *LeBron took four teammates who are not going to be Division I college players and they went up against teams of three, four and five big-time college prospects -- and LeBron's team beat them all."*


Exactly what I said. I feel so proud.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/ian_thomsen/news/2003/07/15/thomsen_insider/


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> Very good. Now go look up the stuff LeBron did in high school, since you don't seem very aware of it.


What did he do?? :whoknows:


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

LeBron far exceeded my expectations. I thought he'd average about 12-13 ppg and have growing pains but even when he was starting at the pg position he was clearly the best Cavalier on the floor. Moving him to the 2 allowed him to exploit his ability even more, which is a far cry from people opinion that he just couldn't cut it there. As I mentioned earlier I was disappointed that he didn't draw as many fouls as I'd thought but frankly that was a product of him being a rookie as well (along with the fact that he's so big that even when fouled you won't see him fall or even show the impact, he's just that strong). You guys can bash him at will, frankly I don't care. I'm just glad he's on the Cavaliers. Hype or no, he's one heck of a player and he still has room to improve which should scare the heck out of you guys.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> What did he do?? :whoknows:


I added to that post. I think maybe the guy who actually saw Alcindor play in HS in person knows a little more than you do.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


Shiggins is one of the smartest posters on the board and i gathered he hated lebron and loved melo , but he defends points well and Paulo all your points are so out there . the kids 18 what do you want 40/20/20 on 60 % shooting? this aint nba live


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SamTheMan67</b>!
> 
> Shiggins is one of the smartest posters on the board and i gathered he hated lebron and loved melo , but he defends points well and Paulo all your points are so out there . the kids 18 what do you want 40/20/20 on 60 % shooting? this aint nba live


F! :upset: 

Read the freaking thread, won´t you?



And who the hell is shiggins?


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

That's it, I'm gonna become a Supporting Member and change my name to Shiggins.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> That's it, I'm gonna become a Supporting Member and change my name to Shiggins.


I dare you!!!!


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> That's it, I'm gonna become a Supporting Member and change my name to Shiggins.


:laugh: That would be great. Shiggins, that's awesome.

LeBron only lost what, 4 games in his High School career?

They were pretty good. And he didn't have a team full of D1 recruits like Carmelo did at Oak Hill.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

My mistake, his record in HS was 101-6.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh: That would be great. Shiggins, that's awesome.


Yeah, come on sprigg... Just Change it!!!


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Then we could say, "Shiggity-shiggity-Shiggins in da house!"


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you seriously saying, "Sure, LeBron James couldn't shoot or play defense, but that's OK, neither can Ndudi Ebi?" What? LeBron was supposed to be able to do things that no rookie from high school had ever done. If you even have to make the excuse that "Tracy McGrady couldn't do it either when he was a rookie," you're admitting that the answer to the question this thread asked, is no.
> ...


You are lying or admitting to being a fool if you thought Lebron was coming in with a strong jumpshot and defense. Both of those things were routinely trumpted as to why Lebron wouldn't be able to just come into the league and dominate. Lebron's J was heavily scrutinized, it still is.

I thought your expectations for the Cavs win total was always very dim. You don't even like them now to do jack. So I have a hard time believing that the team didn't exceed your expectations.


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

I think he lived up to the hype. I still believe that *one day* we will mention his name together with MJ, Wilt and other greats of all time. :gopray:


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*let him prove it to me*



> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> I think he lived up to the hype. I still believe that *one day* we will mention his name together with MJ, Wilt and other greats of all time. :gopray:


Well he has to prove that on the court first.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: let him prove it to me*



> Originally posted by <b>sherako</b>!
> 
> 
> Well he has to prove that on the court first.


He's only 19. and he's off to a good start.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> You are lying or admitting to being a fool if you thought Lebron was coming in with a strong jumpshot and defense. Both of those things were routinely trumpted as to why Lebron wouldn't be able to just come into the league and dominate. Lebron's J was heavily scrutinized, it still is.
> ...


Another good poster but will never make it to the coaching staff level.

James shoots the ball or not, he has the skills to do stop and pop jumper already.

And the thing I am not impressive about is he was doing the move against Penny Hardaway!

Carter against Penny, got by him first before doing other things.
Kobe aginst Penny, got by him first before doing other things.

Sure 2 points is 2 points. But he is using the move that only should against the top tier defensive player but not against bad man to man defender.

James is mature, he has the 98 Jordan skillsets. His physical limitation didnt allow James to display as good as the 98 Jordan. I admit James at the begining of the season, he didnt know how quick the "recover" defense can come so he got a few shots blocked from behind like in his first game against Christie.

Pls PM me if u guys need further Lebron Jame's weaknesses!


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*the break*



> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> He's only 19. and he's off to a good start.


:wait:


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> It's funny how it's pretty much impossible to mention LeBron's name without someone bringing up Carmelo.
> 
> And vice versa.
> ...


Not really, Carmelo better enjoy the comparisons now while they still happen. LeBron was simply amazing last lear. And unlike 'Melo, he didn't throw a hissy fit when his point guard passed the ball to someone else. LeBron kicks major booty. Carmelo is just good.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ehmunro</b>!
> 
> 
> Not really, Carmelo better enjoy the comparisons now while they still happen. LeBron was simply amazing last lear. And unlike 'Melo, he didn't throw a hissy fit when his point guard passed the ball to someone else. LeBron kicks major booty. Carmelo is just good.


We all can be immature sometimes so i droped the whole melo ba by crying thing a long time ago.. but the simple fact is that lebron >melo and lebron>melo forever in the future (IMO)


ps. i know lbj sucks sherako you dont gotta tell me:sigh:


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> My feelings exactly ArtestFan.
> ...


Nope. I said he could take it to the basket, which he can and does on a regular basis. You foolishly said that he doesn't, making it obvious to the world that you hardly watched a Wolves game last season...


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: the break*



> Originally posted by <b>sherako</b>!
> 
> 
> :wait:


Saw your good PM, thanks!


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK...show me where the consensus "hype" had Lebron doing better than 21/6/6. Here's a hint: you won't find it. 



> The fact that LBJ shot 42% only reinforces the fact that he wasn´t *completely ready * for pro ball... Do you think an NBA superstar should be making 42% of his shots? Please... (and no, i´m not therealdeal...)


Then half the league wasn't ready for pro ball last season. T-Mac, Pierce, Marbury, Carmelo, Kidd, Carter...they all shoot around what LeBron did last season. That's just a ridiculous argument. LeBron has a supperior court sense and ability to make his teammates better than 99% percent of 10-years vets out there today. (and 20 years ago, thank you).


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> OK...show me where the consensus "hype" had Lebron doing better than 21/6/6. Here's a hint: you won't find it.


True.
Again, i don´t find those stats, given the circunstances, mind-blowing...



> Then half the league wasn't ready for pro ball last season. T-Mac, Pierce, Marbury, Carmelo, Kidd, Carter...they all shoot around what LeBron did last season. That's just a ridiculous argument.


Call it ridiculous all you want. I can´t accept 42% shooting from the field unless you´re talking about guys who consistently hit the 3 (wich brings down FG%)
From most of the guys you named it was a fluke year, shooting-wise. Guys like Kidd (who can´t really shoot) won´t go down as one of the greatest ever or "possibly the greatest ever", quotes normally associated with LBJ.



> LeBron has a supperior court sense and ability to make his teammates better than 99% percent of 10-years vets out there today. (and 20 years ago, thank you).


I know LeBron is very, very gifted.
I still don´t know (for only time will tell) if he will take his game to the level anyone was prognosting it to be.
Untill then, why should i consider him a superstar, or a "certain HOF" or even "one of the greatest ever"?


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Simple.

Because the performance of an 18 year-old predicts with remarkable accuracy the performance of the same athlete as a 27 year-old. Only as a 27-year old, the performance level is significantly higher.

LBJ's season was the best ever, in an admittedly very small sample, by a 18/19 year old NBA player.

To find players who had better rookie seasons, you find only consensus HOF players. Wilt, KAJ, Oscar, Bird, Elgin Baylor, MJ, Magic. 

All of these guys were older.

Regardless of whether you WANT LBJ to be a top-10 in NBA history, based on the info we have so far, a rational, informed analyst would predict that he has a significant probability of being a top-10 player in NBA history.

If you compare his rookie season to the two current best wing players in the NBA, both of whom came straight out of HS, his season was WAY better. Which indicates a significant chance that he will be a better player than either Kobe or TMac.

There is one non-statistical proviso that I would say counters this argument.

LBJ already has a "full-grown" body. Most players his age, or even 21, do not and did not. This suggests to me that his improvement will come mostly through experience, and less so through improved physical development. That is, his improvement as he reaches his late 20s may be somewhat LESS than a "typical" superstar.

This, interestingly, was true for Oscar, who was "fully developed" as a rookie.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> I know LeBron is very, very gifted.
> I still don´t know (for only time will tell) if he will take his game to the level anyone was prognosting it to be.
> Untill then, why should i consider him a superstar, or a "certain HOF" or even "one of the greatest ever"?


The question specified "in his rookie year". NOBODY expected or hyped LeBron to be one of the best of all time IN HIS ROOKIE YEAR.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> Simple.
> 
> Because the performance of an 18 year-old predicts with remarkable accuracy the performance of the same athlete as a 27 year-old. Only as a 27-year old, the performance level is significantly higher.
> ...


Great post. :greatjob:


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> Great post. :greatjob:


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Untill then, why should i consider him a superstar, or a "certain HOF" or even "one of the greatest ever"?


Watch the stinking games please. LeBron absolutely is a superstar, and there is no way around this. Despite his crucial flaw of only shooting 42% instead of 44%, he is the 2nd best player on the olypmic team. It's not even close. LeBron has been a superstar since the day he stepped on the floor. He understands the concept of team, and makes everybody around him better. 

I know you won't like to hear this, but he's your best hope of the NBA ever getting back to 80's style, pass-oriented basketball. He actually passes it. Watch him. You'll go crazy over the guy, I promise. 

You're so hung up on the low shooting percentages of today's game, you can't even acknowledge a special talent when you see one. (Magic certainly wasn't a great one because of his shot).


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> Simple.
> 
> Because the performance of an 18 year-old predicts with remarkable accuracy the performance of the same athlete as a 27 year-old. Only as a 27-year old, the performance level is significantly higher.
> ...


Good post. :greatjob: 

However, i must point out the fact that it´s not often (and i really can´t think of another case) that a rookie has the luxury to be handed the "keys" to his team.
I don't think there was any rookie in recent years who had such free reign in the basket court (more so after the Davis trade). LBJ had ALL the minutes and touches to showcase his skills... Wich some of the guys you listed hadn´t...
But that´s only a little detail.

I´m not saying that LBJ rookie year wasn´t good, nor that he doesn´t have the potential of being a truly great player (i may be stupid, but i´m not retarded!!  )

I WANT LBJ to achieve excellence. I WANT every player (not dressed in red  ) to become the best they can be.
But i´m not yet willing to say LBJ has a good chance of becoming top-10 All-time. The competition is monstruous...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> Watch the stinking games please.


I´ve had. Not many of them, but plenty.



> LeBron absolutely is a superstar, and there is no way around this.


Again, "superstar" is not a term i loosely use. Maybe i´m wrong, but i think there´s not many of them playing...



> Despite his crucial flaw of only shooting 42% instead of 44%,


Nice move. 



> he is the 2nd best player on the olypmic team. It's not even close.


Please don´t bring USA´s olympic team into this. It has NO relevance... Unless you´re willing to admit that Marbury, Jefferson and Matrix are complete scrubs... which ain´t the case...



> LeBron has been a superstar since the day he stepped on the floor. He understands the concept of team, and makes everybody around him better.
> 
> I know you won't like to hear this, but he's your best hope of the NBA ever getting back to 80's style, pass-oriented basketball. He actually passes it. Watch him. You'll go crazy over the guy, I promise.
> 
> You're so hung up on the low shooting percentages of today's game, you can't even acknowledge a special talent when you see one. (Magic certainly wasn't a great one because of his shot).


Now i get it. You think i´m extremely biased because i´m old school bball-wise!!!
But that´s not it. Sorry.

I´ve stated numerous times that i LOVE LBJ´s game and that i admire his aproach to games, being so team-oriented (wich his veeeery refreshing). I do like the guy.

I´m anxious to watch him improve. i wish him all the luck.

But i stand for my initial posts...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> Nope. I said he could take it to the basket, which he can and does on a regular basis. You foolishly said that he doesn't, making it obvious to the world that you hardly watched a Wolves game last season...


Really, Cassell drove the ball to the basket on a regular basis last season? Are you ABSOLUTELY sure about that?

http://www.82games.com/03MIN5A.HTM

89% of Cassell's shots last season were some sort of jump shot, and is where 14.1 points of his production came from. 11% of his shots were inside shots, 2.1 points of his total production. 

But surrrre, Cassell drove to the basket on a regular basis last season......where I suppose he routinely pulled back for a jump shot? :laugh:


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> But surrrre, Cassell drove to the basket on a regular basis last season......where I suppose he routinely pulled back for a jump shot? :laugh:


Actually, I think that's pretty accurate. He did that a lot.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, I think that's pretty accurate. He did that a lot.


Actually that was my point. I called Cassell a heavy jump shooter that rarely drove to the basket, but blabla said otherwise. Clearly Cassell is a heavy jump shooter, as was my original contention months ago. But now the thread is getting off topic, and I have to walk my malamute.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> he is the 2nd best player on the olypmic team. It's not even close.


Actually, that is Iverson. Duncan and Iverson have consistently been the best players by a decent amount.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Really, Cassell drove the ball to the basket on a regular basis last season? Are you ABSOLUTELY sure about that?
> ...


I suppose if you want to call a 5-foot floater a jumpshot, then he probably did take 89% jumpers. 

Cassell IS a threat off the dribble. He attacks the basket all the time. He might not make it all the way to the basket to attempt a layup, but to say Cassell doesn't take it to the basket is ignornace, plain and simple. 

Watch a Wolves game during the regular season in which Cassell isn't injured, please. You're making yourself look stupid here.

http://www.82games.com/nbashots.htm

Using your own source against you, look where Cassell ranks in 6-11 foot jumpers. These are almost exclusively off the dribble. I suppose now you're going to try and tell me that Cassell is in the habit of spotting up from 6 feet...


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Really, Cassell drove the ball to the basket on a regular basis last season? Are you ABSOLUTELY sure about that?
> ...


Oops double post


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> I´ve had. Not many of them, but plenty.
> ...


Here's what it comes down to. 

Is LeBron's career an unparalleled success? Not yet. He's not currently the NBA's savior (yet). Based on his rookie season, I could see him getting there, As can many people. But I would agree that he's certainly not there yet, and needs to improve his jump shot before he gets there. 

But as for his rookie season, which is the subject matter of the original question, there's no way you can tell me hasn't lived up to and surpassed every bit of hype that was sent his way. 

I think we're arguing two different things, but I think what I'm arguing is more "on-topic" than what you're arguing. 

I could be wrong, but I'm also guessing that if LeBron had hit a couple dozen more jumpers last season, you wouldn't be in the middle of this debate.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> Here's what it comes down to.
> ...


Only one question: what position do you see LBJ playing for the rest of his career? PG? SG? SF?


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Only one question: what position do you see LBJ playing for the rest of his career? PG? SG? SF?


I doubt he'll be the primary PG on the floor very often. He probably isn't suited to guard smaller 1's, and certainly isn't going to be able to get to the basket on a lightning quick PG. 

He has a skillset that truly defies a single position.

My guess is that he ends up playing "point forward", in that the ball is going to be in LeBron's hands most of the time and he certainly will be his team's primary creator, but there is also a traditional "point" on the floor with him, for matchup purposes.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> I doubt he'll be the primary PG on the floor very often. He probably isn't suited to guard smaller 1's, and certainly isn't going to be able to get to the basket on a lightning quick PG.
> 
> ...


Right on the money.
Now you see why i hated the Magic Johnson´s comparisons... 
Stats-wise, i don't think "the SF" LBJ will ever get to the Larry Bird´s status... LBJ could be great... but he has a hard time becoming "one of the greatests"... SF apears to be the toughest place to get recognition...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> I suppose if you want to call a 5-foot floater a jumpshot, then he probably did take 89% jumpers.
> ...


Well then your definition of “taking it to the basket” is quite different from most people's definition. When people say a player takes it to the basket, they almost always mean that that player is getting within a few feet of the rim for a layup, floater, etc. People who take it to the basket are guys like Tmac or Kobe. Cassell may “take it to the basket” in its most literal sense, but he’s hardly ever going to actually _get to_ and under the basket and score, as seen by the 89% stat I referenced. So if that other definition is what you were going by, then I can understand where you’re coming from. Still, Cassell is a jump shooter far more than he is a player that attacks the basket. Any slashing, attacking, or running to the hoop by Cassell is immediately followed up by jump shot far more than a layup or chippie shot. 



> Watch a Wolves game during the regular season in which Cassell isn't injured, please. You're making yourself look stupid here.


Hardly. Take a poll here and ask what people would label Cassell as more, a jump shooter or a player who takes it to the basket. Heck, take a poll about that on any web site, if you’d like. 



> http://www.82games.com/nbashots.htm
> 
> Using your own source against you, look where Cassell ranks in 6-11 foot jumpers. These are almost exclusively off the dribble. I suppose now you're going to try and tell me that Cassell is in the habit of spotting up from 6 feet...


Um, you need to look at your own link a bit more closely, it says 6 to *11* feet. You should also probably look further down on that same page you linked, where it says Cassell attempted 309 18 feet to 3-point line shots, versus 115 6-11 feet shots. Your own link actually proves my point better than my original link did.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Right on the money.
> ...


Well he played Shooting Guard and Point Guard last year. And he'll probably play shooting guard this year too. If the distinction is really that important for you.

If he played the 3, he's far quicker than any other 3 in the game. And still bigger than most 3's. You can't really guard him with a 3.

Really once he figures out his post game, how are you going to guard him? If you double him, he will just pull you out and then pick you apart with the pass. If you leave single coverage on him, he's going to roll right over your 1, 2, 3, and some of your 4's. And if the 4 is big enough to stand up to him, most likely he'll be too slow, and Lebron will take him outside away from the basket.

After the post game, then he's just got to add the consistent J, and you are talking about an unstoppable offensive force.

I don't see how you can not see it.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Right on the money, brother. I was a skeptic during the offseason, but my jaw dropped when I saw the kid play. I have never seen a kid step out of high school and do that. Once he rounds out that game of his he'll be unstoppable.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Well he played Shooting Guard and Point Guard last year. And he'll probably play shooting guard this year too. If the distinction is really that important for you.
> ...


And this is still *all based on potential*. Odom was supposed to be the next _great_ player after going 17-8-4 his rookie season. Four seasons later he's a better defender and a better rebounder, and that's about it. I think it's pretty obvious Odom won't pass the likes of Bird, and I think it's pretty obvious that LeBron isn't necessarily the next greatest player in this league.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> And this is still *all based on potential*. Odom was supposed to be the next _great_ player after going 17-8-4 his rookie season. Four seasons later he's a better defender and a better rebounder, and that's about it. I think it's pretty obvious Odom won't pass the likes of Bird, and I think it's pretty obvious that LeBron isn't necessarily the next greatest player in this league.


Yeah, I've made that mistake before. I'm excited and eager to watch Lebrons development, and I'm as big of a fan of the guy as anyone, but I'm saving my expectations. I wont make the same mistake I did with Odom, because it was disappointing to watch him fail to meet expectations year after year.


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## banner17 (Jun 28, 2003)

Odom was certainly expected to be good, but no way was the hype on him even as close to what Lebron had to contend with.

Lebron had an amazing rookie campaign, he at the very least met the hype. His profesionalism and composure is what really impressed me. Having the kind of leadership skills he has at 19 years old is special. I'm excited to see what he does this season.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Odom was very immature and has dealt with a trunkfull of personal problems. These slowed/halted his development over stretches of his career. He finally took a step forward, IMO, last year. But he shows no sign, really, of being a dominant player with the ball in his hands.

Just a point here that I may not have made clear. You guys keep talking about 17 and 18 ppg like its almost the same as 21ppg.

Now I agree that to a large extent the 20ppg number IS artificial. In that 19.7ppg is essentially 20ppg, but at 19.7 you don't actually get invited to join the club. But if you look at frequency of 21ppg scorers in today's game, and compare it to 17 or 18ppg scorers, there really is a substantial difference.

Last year 43 players scored 17ppg or more. Not really an elite club. Only 15 were at 21ppg.

Lets look at it another way. A player's job is scoring, and most teams have 2 primary scorers.

The top 58 players in the NBA in ppg AVERAGED 18.4 ppg. So an 18ppg scorer is a BELOW AVERAGE for a primary scorer. Pretty fair for a #2 option.

Last year, 20.9ppg makes Lebron the primary scorer on 17 of the 29 NBA teams. As a rookie, right out of high school.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Well then your definition of “taking it to the basket” is quite different from most people's definition. When people say a player takes it to the basket, they almost always mean that that player is getting within a few feet of the rim for a layup, floater, etc. People who take it to the basket are guys like Tmac or Kobe. Cassell may “take it to the basket” in its most literal sense, but he’s hardly ever going to actually _get to_ and under the basket and score, as seen by the 89% stat I referenced. So if that other definition is what you were going by, then I can understand where you’re coming from. Still, Cassell is a jump shooter far more than he is a player that attacks the basket. Any slashing, attacking, or running to the hoop by Cassell is immediately followed up by jump shot far more than a layup or chippie shot.


That's not the issue here. Of course Cassell is a jump shooter. Your original premise was that Cassell doesn't take it to the basket, that he can't create his own shot, which is absolute bunk. He obviously takes a lot of jumpers, but is certainly a major threat off the dribble. 





> Um, you need to look at your own link a bit more closely, it says 6 to *11* feet. You should also probably look further down on that same page you linked, where it says Cassell attempted 309 18 feet to 3-point line shots, versus 115 6-11 feet shots. Your own link actually proves my point better than my original link did.


He's the #1 6-11 foot shooter in the game. Those are all shots he created for himself, by getting to the basket. Notice how there are 1 or 2 other PG's on the list. For a guy who can't dunk, his number of close range shots is probably pretty high.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Right on the money.
> ...


I don't think Magic is too far off, actually. He certainly has a bit of Magic's court vision/size combo. I just think it's a bit more unrealistic to have a 6'9 PG in today's up-and-down, ultra-athletic game. LeBron will always be more than just a simple small forward, so I don't think just comparing him to Bird is fair. And just because he doesn't get to X number of championships like Bird did doesn't mean he won't end up as one of the all-time greats.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> That's not the issue here. Of course Cassell is a jump shooter. Your original premise was that Cassell doesn't take it to the basket, that he can't create his own shot, which is absolute bunk. He obviously takes a lot of jumpers, but is certainly a major threat off the dribble.


No no, my original premise was that Cassell doesn't take it to the basket _often_. And he doesn't, as clearly evidenced by the amount of 6-11 footers he takes (115) versus the amount of 18 footers and out he takes (309). You said he takes it to the basket regularly, on the previous page, and that doesn't make sense based on the numbers I just referenced.

And no, he's just not a major threat off the dribble. Cassell has always been and will continue to be a great pick and roll PG with a great jump shot from virtually anywhere on the floor. 



> He's the #1 6-11 foot shooter in the game. Those are all shots he created for himself, by getting to the basket.


Creating a shot isn't normally defined as coming off a screen and shooting the ball. That's where a some of Cassell's 6-11 footers came from. And as I said before, the guy only took 115 6-11 footers last season, that's not a lot. 



> Notice how there are 1 or 2 other PG's on the list. For a guy who can't dunk, his number of close range shots is probably pretty high.


He's still not getting inside, in the lane, and actually scoring. His moves to the basket consistently fall short of getting close to the rim compared to what other guards are able to do.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think Magic is too far off, actually. He certainly has a bit of Magic's court vision/size combo. I just think it's a bit more unrealistic to have a 6'9 PG in today's up-and-down, ultra-athletic game. LeBron will always be more than just a simple small forward, so I don't think just comparing him to Bird is fair. And just because he doesn't get to X number of championships like Bird did doesn't mean he won't end up as one of the all-time greats.


True, true...
But in the end, a players "greatness" will be always measured by 2 criterias(sp?): stats and rings.
If LBJ´s set on the SF position (and no he won't be the prototype SF, like you said) Bird is his competition at the spot. He was the original point-forward. He also provided the stats and the rings.

So, for LBJ to be consider one of the greatest ever he has a really hard road to travel (although he has a loooong career ahead)...
In today´s NBA (and probably during his career), the SF LBJ will have a hard time putting up monster stats. Although a 20/6/6 is pretty good for today´s standards, IMHO he will never average the triple-double he once said. I don´t believe he will ever challenge Wilt´s, Jordan´s statistical prowesses...

Bottom line: LeBron James must win to achieve the kind of recognition we are talking about. And Cleveland won´t win in the next few years, i gather... It will take time to put up a team around him...


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

How many players have ever led the league in scoring AND assists?

This is the sort of thing that LBJ could be capable of, as his abilities develop.

LBJ - 20.9 5.5 5.9 1.67 0.73
KG -- 10.4 6.3 1.8 1.08 1.64
Kobe- 7.6 1.9 1.3 0.69 0.32
TMac- 7.0 4.2 1.5 0.77 0.95

I think LBJ will score 30ppg and log 9 apg in about 4-5 years. I don't think he will ever get 9rpg.

Tmac reached his peak in 5 years. It took Kobe 7. KG got very close to peak in 5 years, and then took a step forward again in his 8th year.

His second season will tell us quite a bit. It is possible that he will develop less than these comparables, and more like Oscar Robertson, who peaked almost immediately. Even so, Oscar was 22 as a rookie. LBJ will not peak before 22.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

I was just thinking about Oscar Roberstson's rebounding, and discovered the following.

When he had his 10.1 rpg season as a rookie GUARD, it was an amazing feat. 

But take it in perspective. 

He was 14th in the league in rebounding - in an EIGHT team league.

He did not lead his team in rebounds, and 2 other players on his own team were just behind him, with 8.5rpg each.

He got just *one-third* of the rebounds of the league leader that season. (some guy named Wilt, with Bill R right behind...)

LBJ's rebounding is not his forte, and he is not as good as Oscar was. BUT

He was 65th in rebounds in a 29 team league. Not that different that 14th in 8.

He got 38% of the number of rebounds of the league leader, >33%.

He finished 3rd on his team with no-one close behind, not 2nd with 2 guys close behind.

My point, really, is that Oscar's 10.1 taken in context is not nearly as remarkable as it looks.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Mad Viking, you have been laying down some truly awesome posts in this thread.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Thanks futuristxen . 

All the Bill James Abstracts I read 20 years ago have come back in my mind, and I'm just having fun with all the statistical info available now.


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## Vivekiyer110 (Mar 8, 2021)

PauloCatarino said:


> Hmmm... I found LBJ´s rookie season somewhat underachieving...
> 
> Don´t get me wrong: i think he is already an exciting player and has all the potential to become one of the Top-5 players in a couple of years...
> 
> ...





wild_style said:


> i actually thought he was going to average around 20 a game, but the 6 and 6 was the thing that really stands out to me about his rookie year, his numbers are absolutely incredible





PauloCatarino said:


> Hmmm... I found LBJ´s rookie season somewhat underachieving...
> 
> Don´t get me wrong: i think he is already an exciting player and has all the potential to become one of the Top-5 players in a couple of years...
> 
> ...


Hmmm.... What do you think now in 2021 about what you wrote here in 2004?


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