# The Tim Thomas SMALL FORWARD comparison topic.



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Earlier I said that TT isn't even one of the top 20 SFs in the league. I made a list of better SFs, a list of SFs who are arguably as good or better.

People were skeptical about some of the names on my list.

Let's take a look at what some of those players did tonight in comparison to TT.

Tim Thomas
15 pts
6-8 FG
1-3 3pt
2-2 FT
4 reb (0 off)
0 ast
0 stl
0 blk
1 to
23 mins
16 EFF

Grant Hill
27 pts
10-16 FG
2-2 3pt
5-7 FT
12 reb (4 off)
4 ast
3 stl
1 blk
2 to
38 mins
38 EFF

Hedo Turkoglu
23 pts
9-15 FG
4-8 3pt
1-2 FT
3 reb (2 off)
5 ast
0 stl
1 blk
1 to
35 mins
24 EFF

Caron Butler
15 pts
7-12 FG
1-3 3pt
0-0 FT
2 reb (1 off)
3 ast
2 stl
0 blk
1 to
38 mins

Ricky Davis
19 pts
9-16 FG
0-1 3pt
1-2 FT
5 reb (2 off)
5 ast
3 stl
0 blk
2 to
40 mins
22 EFF

Mike Dunleavy
10 pts
5-12 FG
0-1 3pt
0-0 FT
5 reb (1 off)
3 ast
1 stl
0 blk
3 to
30 mins
9 EFF

Shane Battier
7 pts
3-5 FG
0-0 3pt
1-1 FT
4 reb (0 off)
2 ast
2 stl
2 blk
1 to
28 mins
14 EFF

Al Harrington
17 pts
6-17 FG
0-0 3pt
5-6 FT
10 reb (4 off)
7 ast
1 stl
0 blk
3 to
41 mins
21 EFF

Ron Artest
29 pts
10-15 FG
3-4 3pt
6-6 FT
6 reb (0 off)
5 ast
1 stl
2 blk
2 to
50 mins
37 EFF

Andre Iguodala
3 pts
1-3 FG
0-2 3pt
1-2 FT
4 reb
2 ast
1 stl
0 blk
0 to
22 mins
7 EFF

Kyle Korver
23 pts
8-11 FG
7-10 3pt
0-0 FT
3 reb
2 ast
2 stl
0 blk
2 to
32 mins
25 EFF

By the way, would someone let me know when Trevor "steal" Ariza has a game comparable to the former 51st pick? Korver is currently averaging 12.1 ppg.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

You must be terribly bitter the Knicks are .500 now, something I don't think they've done since 2001. The better they do the more little shnit you'll have to find to pick on.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> You must be terribly bitter the Knicks are .500 now, something I don't think they've done since 2001. The better they do the more little shnit you'll have to find to pick on.


I credit the schedule makers. When is the last time the Knicks played the Clippers in their fourth game of the season?

I don't get hyped over first month records.

Raptors, Jazz, Suns, Sonics: 4-1
Magic: 4-2
Nuggets: 2-4
Kings: 1-4

Would it really make a difference if the Knicks were 3-1, 2-2, or 1-3?


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> I credit the schedule makers. When is the last time the Knicks played the Clippers in their fourth game of the season?


First off, I don't consider the clippers a bad team. Their front court with our back court would be a nice team.

Similarly, I don't consider Philly or Boston garbage either, either could battle us for playoff positioning. And we know what Minnesota is. So I don't consider it an easy schedule so far.



> I don't get hyped over first month records.
> 
> Raptors, Jazz, Suns, Sonics: 4-1
> Magic: 4-2
> ...


No, no difference, I agree. My commentary said more about you then the team.

Similarly I don't get hung up on a player like TT who gets off to a bad start or falls into a slump. 

And if you watched the game, which I don't expect you did, you'd have heard that his mother, sister and wife are all seriously ill, which has been a major distraction for him. Nice of you to ridicule a guy contending with serious life issues.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Nice of you to ridicule a guy contending with serious life issues.


Everybody did this with Sweetney last year, and wondered by he was on the IR.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Everybody did this with Sweetney last year, and wondered by he was on the IR.


Er, yes, and felt bad about it when they learned the truth.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

BTW, while we're making comparisons:

Shaun Livingston: 34 mins, 5pts, 1reb, 2 stls, 4 to

Trevor Ariza: 24 mins, 8 pts, 3 rebs, 3 stls, 3 to

Now tell me, who's over hyped, Ariza (44th pick) or Livingston (4th pick)?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,Once again,there is no depth to your sick sick twisted mind.....

For one,TT actually has a decent game,and you come up with one of the DUMBEST posts 

The announcers mention his family has had severe health issues and is obviously distracted.Your completely moronic responce is



> Everybody did this with Sweetney last year, and wondered by he was on the IR.


No MORON,nobody did that when they found out Sweets Dad was seriously ill and passed away.We were down on Sweets before anyone ever knew he had suffered a tremendous loss.

On the other hand,you justify you ridiculous post by attacking TT,after the Knicks win,he plays well and you are aware that his family has serious health issues.....

Oh,and you justify it by saying EVERYONE did it with Sweetney last year....

get back under your rock


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Good post truth, but it's a mistake to assume Rashidi watches the games. Members of "The Blind Scouts" don't really find that necessary.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I am assuming he had to watch the game as he has an even dumber rant ,spewing how TT didnt score from the paint....



> By the way, would someone let me know when Trevor "steal" Ariza has a game comparable to the former 51st pick? Korver is currently averaging 12.1 ppg.


Nice post Rashidi....but its MORONIC 

Since you clearly arent the sharpest tool in the shed,why dont you try comparing apples to apples and make your comparisons per 48 minutes,since everyone plays different amounts per game..

The STEAL,Ariza averages 22 ppg,12 rebounds,4 steals and six assists..

Korver,who is in his second year,and 4 years older averages
19.4 ppg,7 reb,1,5 steals and 2 assists

So WHAT the #$%^& are you talking about?????Dwight HOward,the Number 1 pick in the draft averages 14 pper 48,17 rebounds,1.3 steals and 3 assists

So,thank you for pointing out that Trevor Ariza is indeed the Steal of the draft....

go back to your rock


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> I am assuming he had to watch the game as he has an even dumber rant ,spewing how TT didnt score from the paint....


Our resident "genius" was wrong on that one too. 

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/gamecenter/shotchart/[email protected]

Looking TT up on the shot chart we see one of his 6 for 8 completions was a layup. Most would consider that in the paint, but not Rashidi.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

i can not figure out what possesses someone to post the stuff he does after a knick blowout win in which he played well...

on top of it,nothing he says is true....


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> So WHAT the #$%^& are you talking about?????Dwight HOward,the Number 1 pick in the draft averages 14 pper 48,17 rebounds,1.3 steals and 3 assists


Per 48 minute numbers are favorable to guys who don't get 30 minutes. If a player averages 8 points in 20 minutes, it does not mean it will double to 16 in 40 minutes. Find me one player who had their stats and minutes double in such a manner.



> Looking TT up on the shot chart we see one of his 6 for 8 completions was a layup. Most would consider that in the paint, but not Rashidi.


Gee whiz, I guess I blinked on that one. Maybe it came in garbage time, since most of TT's contribution came in the first quarter and garbage time. He was 4-6 in the first quarter on all jumpers.



> For one,TT actually has a decent game,and you come up with one of the DUMBEST posts


Yes, TT had an average game. He averaged 15/5 last year, so yes, it's average (though hardly a good average). By my count, that's one average game, and 3 horrid games. Would you prefer I laud Tim Thomas for playing a better game than Trevor Ariza? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.



> Oh,and you justify it by saying EVERYONE did it with Sweetney last year....


Thomas is a big boy. If he needs time off to get his life in order, then maybe he should ask for it like Artest, rather than hurting the team with his poor play.



> Now tell me, who's over hyped, Ariza (44th pick) or Livingston (4th pick)?


I'm not high on Livingston at all, and think Telfair is a superior talent.

Livingston averaged 18.0 ppg, 5.7 rpg, and 6.2 apg in high school. Telfair averaged 33.2 ppg, 3.7 rpg, and 9.2 apg in high school. If Livingston can't dominate at the HS level, how will he ever dominate at the NBA level? 6 assists for a HS PG is like 9 rebounds from the next Shaq.

The only consistent scoring either player can get at this point is fast break points. Livingston was a lazy dunk away from 7 points.
But make no mistake. Livingston is at least playing PG, a much more difficult position to play at a young age. Ariza is playing SF. How would Ariza fare at PG? Just as bad, if not worse, since Livingston has a decent stroke on his J, and much better handle.

I assume you actually think that Ariza is a sure thing to develoop into a better player than Livingston, no?


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> I assume you actually think that Ariza is a sure thing to develoop into a better player than Livingston, no?


No sir, I'm actually an anomaly around here. I prefer to observe things for a reasonable period of time before declaring what will and wont be. 

But so far Ariza has been proving his "hype" true, and that is that he was a great pickup from the second round. You'd think so too if you weren't making a career of downplaying everything Isiah touches.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

There are currently 4 players ahead of Marbury in assists per 48 minutes.

Steve Nash, Maurice Williams, Rick Brunson, and Jason Hart.

Man, judging players by 48 minutes over 6 games sure is a sound method.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Strong words from someone who started this thread comparing TT to others based on ONE game.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

rashidi,i would love to match wits with you,but first you will hve to show some signs of intelligence..and you have yet to do that..

So,what statistical measure would you use to compare two players.One who plays 10 minutes per,and the other who plays 40?? 

Have you ever heard of annualising returns??




> Per 48 minute numbers are favorable to guys who don't get 30 minutes. If a player averages 8 points in 20 minutes, it does not mean it will double to 16 in 40 minutes. Find me one player who had their stats and minutes double in such a manner.


Another absolutely ludicrous statement....Why do you think stats per 48 minutes was created.You cant be as Dumb as you appear..its just not possible...

And its not in my best interest to lead you from the path of ignorance

USE YOUR NOODLE


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Why do you think stats per 48 minutes was created.


Then I guess Amare Stoudemire is the best scorer in the league, and Gordan Giricek and Desmond Mason are way better at putting points on the board than that scrub Marbury.

Oh, and Michael Sweetney would score 24 ppg if he played the whole game. Yep, he's right up there with Zach Randolph and Peja Drobnjak.

Did I mention that Dwight Howard is a better rebounder than Kevin Garnett? Or that Kurt Thomas is equal to Ben Wallace in the rebounding department?

Assists per 48 minutes
Marbury: 11.1
Eisley: 11.0



> Strong words from someone who started this thread comparing TT to others based on ONE game.


Because I was expecting people to praise him for "finally putting it together" and overrating the game he had.

What do you know, he followed up his decent game with another poor game.

By my count, that's 1 average game and 4 bad games. What a player.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Because I was expecting people to praise him for "finally putting it together" and overrating the game he had.



But they didn't, did they?

The truth is you are the predictable one, not the rest.



> What do you know, he followed up his decent game with another poor game.
> 
> By my count, that's 1 average game and 4 bad games. What a player.


I thought you fancied yourself the level headed one, but you're as dramatic as the reactionaries on any board. Bash the guy on his career, or on his season with the Knicks, or on his 19/5 for us in games over 12 mins last year. But cut the guy some slack for a bad start after the death of his sister, huh?

And weren't you the one who said:



> I don't get hyped over first month records.
> 
> Raptors, Jazz, Suns, Sonics: 4-1
> Magic: 4-2
> ...


Doesn't that same logic apply to a player too?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,you are nothing more than a sniper and its becoming abundantly clear..

STOP ducking very simple questions..You made a very simple statement that Brand is a 20/10 guy and Sweetney isnt...You neglected to mention that Brand avg close to 39 minutes per..Do you expect Sweetney to put up 20 in 11 minutes???

Lets make it easier Rashidi...If Brand played 15 minutes per game do you think he would average 20/10???


And STOP ducking the question..What measure would you use to compare 2 players that play significantly different minutes????

You made the analogy.You must have an answer


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Lets make it easier Rashidi...If Brand played 15 minutes per game do you think he would average 20/10???


Do you think he would average 7/3 in 15 mins? That's essentially what you are saying.

If Sweetney were capable of putting up 20/10 everytime he got 35 minutes, don't you think he'd be getting 35 minutes?

For one it's pretty clear that the guy is good in spurts, not over the course of a game. And he's defintely not a player you can go to when you need to score.

Anybody can score 20 points if they get the right amount of shots. Tony Campbell averaged 22 or 23. Damon Stoudamire averaged 20. Tony Delk scored 53 in a game.

If you put Sweetney on a lottery team, would Sweetney average 20/10? Depending on how bad the team is, I'd say it's possible. Primoz Brezec is averaging 15/8 for Charlotte. Would a Sweetney led scrub team be better than a Brand led scrub team? Don't forget that Brand has improved since his rookie year. He's a better defensive player, passer, and shooter since then. Sweetney doesn't hold a candle to Brand defensively, and has no semblence of a consistent jumper from any range at this point. A Sweetney-led team would be a poorly orchestrated one-dimensional attack, which wouldn't even work because the guy commits too many fouls to keep himself on the court for 25 minutes, much less 30. 

You want to talk about per minute averages? Let's talk about Sweetney's 3 fouls per 22 minutes. In case you're wondering, that equates to more than 6 fouls per 48. Which makes it funny how you're bringing up his per 48 numbers as some mark of brilliance. Sweetney doesn't stay on the court long enough to be depended on. His 1.4 fouls in 12 mintues wasn't much better last year either. That equates to 5.6 fouls per 48 minutes, if my math is correct. Brand on the other hand averaged 3.2 fouls per 37 minutes in his ROOKIE YEAR, and those numbers have remained steady throughout his career (currently at 3 per 38.7 minutes).

Career averages for FPG
Brand: 3.2 (38.4 mpg)
Kurt Thomas: 3.8 (28.0 mpg)
Sweetney: 1.5 (12.8 mpg)
Shaq: 3.4 (37.4 mpg)
Oakley: 3.4 (30.4 mpg)
Nazr: 3.6 (23.8 mpg)
PJ Brown: 3.0 (32.0 mpg)
Kwame: 1.9 (22.9 mpg)
Amare: 3.0 (33.3 mpg)

Sweetney isn't quite the foul machine that Nazr or KT is, but he certainly commits more than other physical players at his position, players who are noted as good defensive players.

Are you trying to make some sort of point, attempting to twist numbers in a so-called "Rashidi-esque" fashion? You need to have an understanding of what leads to those numbers. I don't claim to be some leading expert, but I know more about it than most.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Dumb stats...*

If a guy knows he is only going to play 15-20 minutes, do you think he is worried about picking up an extra foul or 2? You are showing your ignorance again....if you had watched Sweetney through his college career you would know that he frequently played almost all of the games ....was always efficient at every point of the game....and was THE go-to guy. If you didn't know it, the BE is a very physical conference. Everyone knew these things about MS except, apparently, you. There was only one question with Mike...his height. 

And yes..I would expect Brand to average about 7 and 3 for 15 minutes if he was not the focal point of the offense.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,i am afraid you arent reading what I wrote and in fact I listed the one condition where you may have a case

Truth wrote:



> The only way your argument could be valid is if sweetney was avg 3-4 fouls in the time he played.Than,you could produce a very strong argument as to why in this particular case stats per 48 isnt valid..


So your statement,was addressed well BEFORE you thought of it



> You want to talk about per minute averages? Let's talk about Sweetney's 3 fouls per 22 minutes. In case you're wondering, that equates to more than 6 fouls per 48. Which makes it funny how you're bringing up his per 48 numbers as some mark of brilliance


This is my final comments.You tend to get very emotional due to to your bias against the Knicks.And you still did NOT answer the question.What measure would you use to compare 2 players who play significantly different minutes??

And you can NOT answer it because there is NO other answer.The problem is you NEVER back done or admit when you are possibly wrong,Instead you take a subjective view,bring up lottery teams and all things which have no statistical credibility,just an opinion..

You brought up 20/10 for Brand..Now you are bringing up number of shots which is probably has a high correlation to minutes played...

Face it,if Brand played 18 minutes per,his number would decline significantly..Dont be silly..Compare apples to apples...And to bring up things like if Sweetney was good enough to put up 20/10 in 35 minutes is a very silly point and you know it


Either show me a better statistical measure that is not predicated on number of minutes played,or just move on.You still can not come up with an alternative measure.And its because there is NONE


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## Dr. J (Jul 12, 2002)

Actually, per 48 min are very applicable when looking at players. When a guy gets smaller minutes, it is usually harder to play well. You come in cold, you get smaller minutes to get warm and then you are pulled.

Great players, the ones who become overnight stars, actually do it at the same rate per 48 for a while, they just get more time.

The best examples are Redd from the Bucks. He scored at about the same rate for years, just got more time last year.

O'Neal never got the minutes in Portlans, but now with Indiana, he scores at about the same rate per minute (actually a little less last year)

Kirilenko was similar, got more minutes and total production went up, but per 48 were about the same.

Another is Sweetney. If he gets more minutes, he will do better.

Look for guys like Stomile Swift, Marquis Daniels, Okur, to have better years as they get more minutes.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Thank you Doctor..There really is no other way to compare..Even if you look at efficiency measures,they still factor in games played,and do not differentiate between someone who plays 5 minutes per game vs 40 minutes.That biases the results to the player who plays more

Efficiency Formula
Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G

So you can see that number the divisor is Games and not how much of a game you played,which would be a far more accurate measure of efficiency.Or you should increase the first part of the equation to stats per 48 in the numerator to be more consistent and homogenise the results.

The only factor that should be addressed or considered is fouls per 48 minutes..If someone is a foul machine and avg 9 fouls per 48 minutes then the results are very misleading..What Rashidi does is mix subjective opinions with facts...

Yes,Amare is the best scorer in the league right now.He scores more points per time played than any other player.Its not an opinion.Its a FACT.You may argue that those numbers will revert to the mean,but that as opinion or a projection,noy a stat.

And it is true that Mason and Girecek are scoring at very high rates..Will it last???Only time will tell

But NUMBERS do not lie,they are an accurate accessment of what has occued presently.They do not predict the future nor are they meant to.Anything predicting the future,be it a gut feeling,regression lines,comparing distributions or any thing else is merely a speculative endeavor


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## jcs83md (Jun 9, 2003)

Per 48 Minutes Stats = Bad when trying to compare players with very limited minutes (Under 15-20 MPG) but otherwise a decent stat to use.

Also, why hasnt anyone brought up shooting percentages in their arguments?? Obviously, thats important as well.

Lastly, we're not even a month into the season.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Actually, per 48 min are very applicable when looking at players. When a guy gets smaller minutes, it is usually harder to play well. You come in cold, you get smaller minutes to get warm and then you are pulled.


Not at all.

If a guy scores 2 points in 1 minute, that means he scores 96 ppg per 48 minutes.

It is easier to score 5 points in 10 minutes than it is to score 20 points in 40.



> Look for guys like Stomile Swift, Marquis Daniels, Okur, to have better years as they get more minutes.


Obviously they will put up better stats with more minutes. My point is that they will not go up at some set rate based on their 48 minute numbers. Per 48 minute numbers always go down as a player gets more minutes.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

but its the best available comparitive measure,unless you can tell me something different..i am all ears..

i looked and couldnt fimd anything better


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## Dr. J (Jul 12, 2002)

Per 48 do not go down as players go from small minutes to more. 

Actually it is harder to score 5 points in 10 minutes on a consistent basis. One game sure. But if someone averages 5 in 10 minutes for a long period of time, he should be playing more minutes, cause he can score. Remember for most players, getting 10 minutes does not mean getting one strech in a game. You come in 2 times or 3. It is hard to get warm, get in the flow before you are pulled.

For most players, once they get consistent minutes, their per 48 goes up, not down. This has to do with 2 factors. 
1) they are better players and are earning the minutes
2) it is easier to play in longer stretches.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Lets take a look at points per 48 minutes so far.

RNK	NAME	MPG	PTS
1	A. Stoudemire, PHO	36.1	36.7
2	Dirk Nowitzki, DAL	38.0	34.1
3	J. O'Neal, IND	32.7	33.7
4	Dwyane Wade, MIA	36.1	32.4
5	Baron Davis, NOR	37.0	31.9
6	Kobe Bryant, LAL	41.7	31.9
7	Tim Duncan, SAS	36.0	31.7
8	Ray Allen, SEA	39.3	31.6
*9	LeBron James, CLE	42.6	30.8
10	Carlos Boozer, UTH	34.6	30.7*
11	Pau Gasol, MEM	29.5	29.9
12	Paul Pierce, BOS	38.8	29.9
*13	Allen Iverson, PHI	42.1	29.8
14	Kevin Garnett, MIN	40.1	29.6
15	Manu Ginobili, SAS	30.4	29.4
16	Michael Redd, MIL	42.8	29.3*
17	S. O'Neal, MIA	32.3	29.0
18	Yao Ming, HOU	31.9	28.9
19	Ron Artest, IND	41.3	28.6
20	Grant Hill, ORL	35.1	28.0
21	C. Anthony, DEN	38.0	27.6
*22	C. Maggette, LAC	37.1	27.6
23	G. Giricek, UTH	19.1	27.3
24	A. Jamison, WAS	41.3	27.1*
25	Hedo Turkoglu, ORL	27.3	26.9
26	Desmond Mason, MIL	30.5	26.8
27	Luol Deng, CHI	30.2	26.5
28	Steve Francis, ORL	39.1	26.4
29	Z. Ilgauskas, CLE	35.8	26.2
Larry Hughes, WAS	32.9	25.9
31	Chris Webber, SAC	34.8	25.6
32	Rashard Lewis, SEA	38.9	25.5
33	A. Walker, ATL	41.0	25.3
34	J. Richardson, GSW	34.4	25.2
*35	Troy Hudson, MIN	17.7	25.2
36	S. Marbury, NYK	38.4	25.2*
37	R. Hamilton, DET	39.9	25.1
* G. Arenas, WAS	39.9	25.1
39	A. Daniels, SEA	26.8	25.1
40	C. Billups, DET	37.8	25.0
41	Juan Dixon, WAS	19.8	24.9*
42	Zach Randolph, POR	38.9	24.9
43	J. Stackhouse, DAL	30.4	24.9
*44	R. Jefferson, NJN	42.5	24.7
45	Raja Bell, UTH	27.4	24.1*
46	Jalen Rose, TOR	30.9	24.0
47	K. Van Horn, MIL	41.8	23.9
*48	S. Swift, MEM	23.9	23.9
49	P. Stojakovic, SAC	38.9	23.8
50	D. Johnson, DEN	14.1	23.8*

*51	Vince Carter, TOR	30.3	23.7
52	C. Williamson, PHI	19.8	23.7*
53	Chris Wilcox, LAC	34.4	23.4
54	Mike Bibby, SAC	37.5	23.4
*55	Bobby Jackson, SAC	22.8	22.7
56	Bonzi Wells, MEM	26.3	22.6
57	Al Jefferson, BOS	10.7	22.5
58	J. Crawford, NYK	33.3	22.5
59	A. Pavlovic, CLE	8.9	22.5
60	Pat Garrity, ORL	21.1	22.4*
61	S. Abdur-Rahim, POR	32.6	22.3
62	Marc Jackson, PHI	26.2	22.2
63	Darius Miles, POR	22.1	22.0
*64	Ben Gordon, CHI	17.5	21.9
65	Shawn Marion, PHO	37.8	21.9
66	Kyle Korver, PHI	27.3	21.9*
67	Bobby Simmons, LAC	34.0	21.8
68	Brad Miller, SAC	36.1	21.8
69	Rafer Alston, TOR	33.0	21.7
*70	Elton Brand, LAC	38.2	21.6
71	Rodney White, DEN	17.5	21.6*
Eddie House, CHA	28.6	21.6
73	P. Drobnjak, ATL	23.5	21.4
*74	Matt Bonner, TOR	15.4	21.4
75	Mike Sweetney, NYK	20.3	21.3
76	A. Mourning, NJN	27.1	21.2
77	W. Szczerbiak, MIN	30.7	21.2
78	E. Najera, GSW	12.3	21.2*
79	Earl Boykins, DEN	29.8	21.2
*80	Marcus Banks, BOS	11.0	21.1*
81	Steve Smith, CHA	24.9	21.0
82	M. Daniels, DAL	25.2	20.9
*83	Mehmet Okur, UTH	20.4	20.9
84	Al Harrington, ATL	38.8	20.7
85	A. Kirilenko, UTH	35.0	20.7*
86	David Wesley, NOR	33.1	20.7
87	Joe Johnson, PHO	36.5	20.5
88	V. Radmanovic, SEA	28.7	20.5
89	Steve Nash, PHO	36.1	20.4
90	Mike Miller, MEM	21.3	20.3
*91	G. Wallace, CHA	30.7	20.3
92	Lamar Odom, LAL	33.4	20.3*
93	Primoz Brezec, CHA	31.6	20.2
94	Raef LaFrentz, BOS	25.0	20.2
*95	Lamond Murray, TOR	15.9	20.1
96	Jason Terry, DAL	25.2	20.1*
97	Caron Butler, LAL	31.2	20.0
98	Juwan Howard, HOU	20.7	19.9
99	Kirk Hinrich, CHI	36.2	19.9
100	Chris Mihm, LAL	27.1	19.9

You can literally see the entire list suffer an utter breakdown the further it goes.

Additionally, Points/48 is not a good indicator of defensive coverage the player recieves. Anybody with half a brain should be able to figure out why Corliss Williamson scores "at the same rate" as Vince Carter, or why Troy Hudson "scores at the same rate" as Marbury, etc.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Looking at stats without being able to analyze the information is meaningless. Of course, more than a few people tend to confuse analyzing with "subjective opinions".

For instance, it doesn't take pace into account.

Of course Amare is going to have lots of points per minute, his team leads the league in possessions per minute. Amare will probably have a higher PP48 than Duncan all season long.

Does that make Amare a better scorer?
Let's see how Duncan does on a high tempo/no defense team with Nash.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Same with Dirk. Who is the better scorer, him or KG?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Yay for Tim Thomas missing the game winner.

Well, the good news is that Artest's value might be low enough that they could trade TT for him. Are you allowed to trade for a suspended player while he's suspended? TT would at least keep them in the race a bit, since their best 3 players (O'Neal/Jackson/Artest) are going to be suspended, and they were already shorthanded with injuries. They may not be able to field enough live bodies to play their next game.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

NY may be the only place you can trade Artest where the fans would still cheer him, because of his St Johns connections.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I'd take Artest in a second. 

Isiah knows him well, he's Isiah's problem, he's got a good contract, and Isiah is the one guy with the temperament to match his.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*You never cease to amaze me, Rashidi*

Artest was not the instigator, nor did he charge into the stands unprovoked. Try being all amped up...getting hammered and pursued by a guy that you would like to get in a conflict with....trying to compose yourself and then having a full cup of cold beer thrown at your face. Wallace way over-reacted. I saw half a dozen harder fouls in the SU game. It wasn't even a flagrant 1 foul. Wallce first..then the fans...then the other players. I'll take him anyday.

BTW, I am not an Artest fan, per se.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Of course Amare is going to have lots of points per minute, his team leads the league in possessions per minute. Amare will probably have a higher PP48 than Duncan all season long.
> ...


Amare is without a doubt a better scorer than Duncan and any other big man in the league for that matter.

Dirk would be second.


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## J19 (Nov 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> 
> 
> Amare is without a doubt a better scorer than Duncan and any other big man in the league for that matter.
> ...


No he isnt, Dirk has way many more offensive moves than Amare, but Amare is great, but Dirk is even better at offense


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> You never cease to amaze me, Rashidi


Uh, I'm on Artest's side. But the fact is he's facing a signifcant suspension that will be Sprewell-esque. He would be a public relations nightmare for any team that picked him up via trade, except NY, ala Sprewell.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

And if I remember, Spree was "provoked" by Carlesmo too. There is no excuse for running into the stands and starting a riot, and the league offices are going to look at it that way. This is a much bigger black eye than the Sprewell incident, whether it's totally Artest's fault or not.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Amare is without a doubt a better scorer than Duncan and any other big man in the league for that matter.


This of course, is coming from a guy named Amareca.

I'd like to see Amare get 30 against Duncan and the Spurs.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,have you seen Amare this year???He is a monster and the addition of nash makes him MUCH better..
He will drop 30 on Duncan,which doesnt mean he has a better offensive game..

Nash is second to Kidd as far as making his teamates better


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> He would be a public relations nightmare for any team that picked him up via trade, except NY, ala Sprewell


you might as well pencil him in at the small foward slot..its a guarantee..

Alfa,the guy is crazy,but he is possibly the best 2 way player in the NBA


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