# Four teams interested in Tim Thomas



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/39351/20060225/four_teams_are_interested_in_thomas/

http://www.bergen.com/page.php?qstr...lRUV5eTY4ODYyMjMmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2


Lousy teams like the Heat, Nets, Sixers and Spurs are all reportedly interested in the player not jibby enough to suit up for the below .500, out of the playoff Bulls.

What on earth are these teams thinking? What do they know about "the right way?"


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

I'm glad you posted this. I wasn't even aware that any of these teams had approached Pax with a deal.... it's a shame he didn't listen to what they had to offer.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

This Bulls team has no idea of what it takes to win in todays NBA. So sad.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

yep four teams out of thirty. 13% in demand. By the way all four teams would want Deng or Nocioni for veteran minimum if we cut them as well. 

It will be interesting to see what he does after he leaves here.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

Wynn said:


> I'm glad you posted this. I wasn't even aware that any of these teams had approached Pax with a deal.... it's a shame he didn't listen to what they had to offer.



those teams aren't interested in trading for him.

they're only interested in him once he's been bought out.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

For one I don't think Billy King knows a damn thing about "the right way."

I think we could use Thomas. But I'm not going to cry about not having him.

Some teams with certain player personalities are better suited to take on non-jib player than a team like us. TT can't come in and screw with Shaq, GP, and Wade. Ditto to a team already established with guys like Kidd, Vince, and RJ. Iverson & Cwebb and certainly not the world champs. 

Obviously our guys are all grown men. But if things get out of hand, who's going to be the player on the Bulls to step up, knock Timmy on his ***, and let him know things aren't going to be that way? I think there's a much bigger chance of a mess happening here than in those places. Maybe we could have given the situation a bit longer of time, but I doubt that would have helped the matter. It looked like it was headed in a very bad direction very fast.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> those teams aren't interested in trading for him.
> 
> they're only interested in him once he's been bought out.


I bet the Bull would also be interested in getting him for the VET MINIMUM and having him sitting on the end of the bench. In fact, rumor has it that the only thing holding up the BUYOUT is that Pax is trying to get Thomas' verbal commitment to re-sign with the Bull for the VET MINIMUM.

_...at least that's what my sources are telling me._


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/39351/20060225/four_teams_are_interested_in_thomas/
> 
> http://www.bergen.com/page.php?qstr...lRUV5eTY4ODYyMjMmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2
> 
> ...


I'd actually love to see him go to the Spurs. Just like Glenn Robinson, maybe he can just play his miniscule minutes per game, come in and help them in one big game, and then find himself out of the league for the rest of his basketball career.

Make no mistake: that's all they want from him. He won't eat into a hot second of Ginobili's minutes.


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## bbertha37 (Jul 21, 2004)

This quote from TT when we aqcuired him really said all I needed to know about him:
“I came out (of Villanova) as a scorer,” Thomas said. “I got drafted by Philly and you had (Allen) Iverson and (Jerry) Stackhouse. I get traded from Philly to Milwaukee with Ray (Allen), Sam (Cassell) and Glenn (Robinson). And I get traded from Milwaukee to New York with scorers all around there.
“I’ve been sacrificing for nine years in my career. Hopefully (Bulls coach Scott Skiles) will put me in a situation where I can go out and prove to people the talents that I really, really have.”

It's unfortunate, but I don't think that there's any way that TT would've handled his role on this team smoothly. From what I infer from this quote, TT simply didn't seem willing to accept a smaller role on a team without any well established stars or scorers. The teams that are currently interested in signing him have players like Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Iverson, Webber, Carter, Kidd, and Jefferson. I just don't see him having trouble deferring to those kind of players. But deferring to guys like Gordon, Hinrich, Deng, and Nocioni? I just don't think he was going to accept that role without putting up a stink.

Anyways, as other posters have mentioned, these teams weren't interested in giving up an asset to aqcuire TT. They merely want to sign him to the vet minimum for the remainder of the year. If we were in a similar situation as these teams, I would've expected us to pursue him as well.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

Wow it really surprises me that Miami is interested in him, they have done so well w/ that roster so far this season, one more "star" player would be what they need.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Tim Thomas gets it and doesn't get it.


> "I just wanted to play basketball," said Thomas, who has posted career averages of 11.9 points and 4.0 rebounds. "I knew it was a young team, but I still thought it was a great opportunity. I really can't pinpoint (what went wrong). I wish I knew what happened, because I'm tired of running into people, having them ask me about it and not being able to give them a real answer. The only thing I can come up with is Chicago has a young group of guys that they like, and they just basically want to stick with that."


ok... but then.


> A lack of playing time prompted Thomas, who suffered two ankle sprains during training camp, to ask Skiles if he the feisty former NBA point guard believed Thomas was "dogging it" in practice. Skiles simply told Thomas he didn't think the versatile former Villanova star was playing at a level comparable to Chicago's other small forwards, Luol Deng (13.2 points, 5.8 rebounds) and Andres Nocioni (11.7 points, 5.1 rebounds).


Skiles said Tim wasn't playing up to the level he wanted in practice. How does that translate to "_I really can't pinpoint (what went wrong). I wish I knew what happened_,"


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/39351/20060225/four_teams_are_interested_in_thomas/
> 
> http://www.bergen.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMjYmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY4ODYyMjMmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2
> 
> ...


It's a good point. Three of those teams made it to the finals in the past decade. That raises the question of if we were a good, veteran club and were in the situation to strengthen our bench, would Paxson pick up a guy like Tim? I say no way. I think Paxson is a stubborn guy and the fact that he wouldn't even _think _of breaking up the core to make our team better shows that. To Pax, he's another "mediocre veteran" He's still a young, unseasoned GM who has and will make mistakes. Hopefully he can learn from them.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

I still don't understand why the Bulls are entertaining the buyout. The one way you make sure Tim doesn't burn you playing for an eastern conference team is by continuing to pay him to sit in Paterson. 
I got a bad feeling Thomas has a alot of Jerome James in him and is going to play hard for atleast a lil while. I might be a ***** but I would play hard ball with him. If I am paying him and he wants to play this season, he'll play for the Bulls under my rules. If he doesn't want to bust his arse playing for the team paying him 14 million, he can continue to sit in Paterson. Hey in Paterson that's just the way things go.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

L.O.B said:


> I still don't understand why the Bulls are entertaining the buyout. The one way you make sure Tim doesn't burn you playing for an eastern conference team is by continuing to pay him to sit in Paterson.
> I got a bad feeling Thomas has a alot of Jerome James in him and is going to play hard for atleast a lil while. I might be a ***** but I would play hard ball with him. If I am paying him and he wants to play this season, he'll play for the Bulls under my rules. If he doesn't want to bust his arse playing for the team paying him 14 million, he can continue to sit in Paterson. Hey in Paterson that's just the way things go.


Here's one reason:
http://www.nj.com/newslogs/nets/



> *Waiting on Tim*
> If there’s any doubt in your mind that the Chicago Bulls will release Tim Thomas to sign with another outfit before Wednesday – thereby making him eligible for the playoffs – you might want to consider something a GM told us yesterday.
> 
> “No way,” he said. “You want to screw with Arn Tellem, you’re basically screwed for the rest of your tenure.”


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> Here's one reason:
> http://www.nj.com/newslogs/nets/


A good reason to eliminate agents from the sport....


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Tim Thomas matters.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Wynn said:


> A good reason to eliminate agents from the sport....


While we're at it, let's get rid of lawyers, doctors, accountants, and anyone else who helps guide laypeople through exceedingly complicated occupational, legal, and financial matters.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

If teams like the Spurs and Heat want a veteran with some playoff experience, rather than an undrafted rookie free agent, then I guess TT makes an ideal 3rd stringer. There's still no way in heck he does anything meaningful, IMO. He does a few things ok (shooting), and does other things pretty atrociously (defense). He just isn't what the Bulls need though. That's all that matters for us.

Btw, VERY interesting quote about Arn Tellam. Thanks for the link, Mike. It's a sad but true fact that playing politics is important as an NBA GM.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> While we're at it, let's get rid of lawyers, doctors, accountants, and anyone else who helps guide laypeople through exceedingly complicated occupational, legal, and financial matters.


Not sure how doctors and accountants fit into this whole thing.....


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Wynn said:


> Not sure how doctors and accountants fit into this whole thing.....


Because they're professionals who provide people with invaluable career, financial, and life advice. That's what good agents (and there are precious few bad agents in the NBA) do for their clients. 

Agents can actually be a very positive force for NBA GMs, too. They help to facilitate trades and can maybe even get a client to take a pay cut to join a good situation where the agent has already placed other guys from his stable. 

In any case, they're a firmly and necessarily entrenched part of the NBA landscape. I was just assuming that if you felt one (albeit small and well-paid) group of society should go it completely alone without any specialized professional advice, you'd feel the same about the rest of the world.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> In any case, they're a firmly and necessarily entrenched part of the NBA landscape. I was just assuming that if you felt one (albeit small and well-paid) group of society should go it completely alone without any specialized professional advice, you'd feel the same about the rest of the world.


Does an agent strong-arming a team into releasing a player who is being paid handsomely fit under the blanket umbrella of "specialized professional advice"? I fully agree that a player should have an agent in the sense of looking over contracts and protecting the physical and financial assets of his career. Having an agent bully a team into forgiving his client millions of dollars of an agreed upon contract so that his guy can go play ball elsewhere, though, is just wrong any way you look at it.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Wynn said:


> Having an agent bully a team into forgiving his client millions of dollars of an agreed upon contract so that his guy can go play ball elsewhere, though, is just wrong any way you look at it.


Unfortunately, it's the Bulls who opened that can of worms by telling a perfectly healthy guy who was ready and willing to play, and meeting or surpassing all standards set forth in the uniform player contract, to go home and stay away from the team. 

It is rational and normal to expect an agent to want his client extricated from such a situation and, since the player has done absolutely nothing to violate the standards of his contract, to not sacrifice a penny of the compensation owed the player.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/39351/20060225/four_teams_are_interested_in_thomas/
> 
> http://www.bergen.com/page.php?qstr...lRUV5eTY4ODYyMjMmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2
> 
> ...


Could it be that those veteran teams feel good enough about their chemestry to take the risk?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> Could it be that those veteran teams feel good enough about their chemestry to take the risk?


If its taking a "risk" versus not taking a "risk," I know what option Paxson will likely choose.

What's the downside risk? Being a losing team that does not make the playoffs?

Do you think Skiles would play Thomas if we had a team mostly of 5th and 6th year players in place of our current mix?


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> It is rational and normal to expect an agent to want his client extricated from such a situation and, since the player has done absolutely nothing to violate the standards of his contract, to not sacrifice a penny of the compensation owed the player.


It is rational and normal that if the player is dissatisfied with fulfilling the terms of his multi-million dollar agreement that he forfeit a portion of his compensation for said agreement. If he feels the Bull needs to fulfill their portion of the contract in full, then he should also be prepared to do the same. If, through negotiation, his agent is able to work out a situation where Thomas forfeits some of his salary for an amicable parting, then I'm all for the agent's intervention. That is not, however, how the quote above characterized the process.

No career, in and of itself, is inherently bad. Many of the sports agents out there are decent and honorable folks. Some of these "superagents", though, go far beyond the scope of what they should be allowed to do. Sometimes, as in this case, it appears they try to strong-arm a team by threatening to "boycott" the team with their clients. Other times, it involves manipulating some of these impressionable kids into situations that are not good for them -- using them until they're are no longer useful. In the case of Tim Thomas, his agent should giggle like a little school girl every time he realizes how much he made off of his client's last contract. Does he really think Thomas is going to get another contract worth any more than the minimum? Thomas should be looking up ERob and exchanging information on the best internet gaming and where to find the prettiest sweaters... not pretending he's ever actually been interested in meeting his end of his multi-million dollar contract.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> If its taking a "risk" versus not taking a "risk," I know what option Paxson will likely choose.
> 
> What's the downside risk? Being a losing team that does not make the playoffs?
> 
> Do you think Skiles would play Thomas if we had a team mostly of 5th and 6th year players in place of our current mix?


The risk? Giving the young core the impression that it's ok not to practice or play hard. That seems like a pretty signicant risk to me compared with a very miniscule reward based on the balance of Thomas' career.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Wynn said:


> Does an agent strong-arming a team into releasing a player who is being paid handsomely fit under the blanket umbrella of "specialized professional advice"? I fully agree that a player should have an agent in the sense of looking over contracts and protecting the physical and financial assets of his career. Having an agent bully a team into forgiving his client millions of dollars of an agreed upon contract so that his guy can go play ball elsewhere, though, is just wrong any way you look at it.


The Bulls agreed upon the contract themselves by acquiring it. While one can argue whether Thomas was a good player or not, this is a pretty open and shut case. He was willing to come and play. The Bulls told him to stay at home. The Bulls are the guys who are trying to get a break here from the agreed upon amount. 

You can't blame them for trying to get the best possible deal for themselves, but I don't see any reason to begrudge Thomas from getting the best possible deal for himself either. The Bulls tried to leverage Thomas into giving up money to get what he wants (back on the court). Thomas is trying to leverage them right back.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> The Bulls agreed upon the contract themselves by acquiring it. While one can argue whether Thomas was a good player or not, this is a pretty open and shut case. He was willing to come and play. The Bulls told him to stay at home. The Bulls are the guys who are trying to get a break here from the agreed upon amount.
> 
> You can't blame them for trying to get the best possible deal for themselves, but I don't see any reason to begrudge Thomas from getting the best possible deal for himself either. The Bulls tried to leverage Thomas into giving up money to get what he wants (back on the court). Thomas is trying to leverage them right back.


Sounds to me like Thomas is the one making noise about wanting to join another team for a play-off run. The Bull simply told him his services weren't necessary, checks are in the mail. Thomas is the one who appears unwilling to meet the demands of the contract. As much as anyone may feel that the Bull has mishandled Tim Thomas, the Bull is acting fully within the rights of the team granted in the contract. It appears, from all sides, that the Bull intends to honor the contract as written. Thomas is the one, it appears, who finds this unsatisfactory.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Wynn said:


> pretending he's ever actually been interested in meeting his end of his multi-million dollar contract.


Who's pretending? And if this were truly the case, why wouldn't the Bulls present it to the league as an open-and-shut case of a player failing to live up to the standards of his contract?

The reality is that Thomas is and always has been in game-ready physical condition. He did not miss a single practice or team meeting. He has repeatedly expressed his desire to play and practice and help the team to the best of his ability.The Bulls would be laughed out of the league office if they attempted to void Thomas's contract. They are well within their rights to send him home, and Thomas and his agents are well within their rights to use their leverage to get Thomas out of Chicago. 

Not surprisingly, I think the Bulls' treatment of Thomas has been a mistake from the jump. For starters, we could have used him on the court. Secondly, it is a disservice to the character of our jib guys to think that they would not be able to withstand Tim Thomas's mere presence. 

However, if this is how Paxson felt it needed to be handled, I respect that. But it's not a point worth belaboring to the extent that it pisses off Arn Tellem. Our relationship with Thomas ends June 30. Tellem, as far as I can tell, intends to represent NBA superstars well into the future.


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## bbertha37 (Jul 21, 2004)

“I came out (of Villanova) as a scorer,” Thomas said. “I got drafted by Philly and you had (Allen) Iverson and (Jerry) Stackhouse. I get traded from Philly to Milwaukee with Ray (Allen), Sam (Cassell) and Glenn (Robinson). And I get traded from Milwaukee to New York with scorers all around there.
“I’ve been sacrificing for nine years in my career. Hopefully (Bulls coach Scott Skiles) will put me in a situation where I can go out and prove to people the talents that I really, really have.”


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## giantkiller7 (Feb 9, 2006)

bbertha37 said:


> “I came out (of Villanova) as a scorer,” Thomas said. “I got drafted by Philly and you had (Allen) Iverson and (Jerry) Stackhouse. I get traded from Philly to Milwaukee with Ray (Allen), Sam (Cassell) and Glenn (Robinson). And I get traded from Milwaukee to New York with scorers all around there.
> “I’ve been sacrificing for nine years in my career. Hopefully (Bulls coach Scott Skiles) will put me in a situation where I can go out and prove to people the talents that I really, really have.”


_And just let her cry...
Let the tears fall down like rain..._


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

bbertha37 said:


> “I’ve been sacrificing for nine years in my career. Hopefully (Bulls coach Scott Skiles) will put me in a situation where I can go out and prove to people the talents that I really, really have.”


This is tantamount to hate speech, frankly.

Does anyone know for sure that Tim Thomas didn't draw those Danish cartoons?


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I believe that *Wynn's!* main point here is that it's unethical and wrong for an agent to strong-arm a team into making a certain transaction. Can anyone really disagree with that? The quote from this anonymous GM suggests that Arn Tellam will hold an eternal grudge against Paxson if he doesn't get his way. That's a terrible business attitude, IMO, as well as an abuse of power.

HOWEVER, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, playing politics in the NBA is inescapable. So if releasing Tim Thomas and letting him walk to a contender will help us as a PR move, then I think Pax should do it. The rewards almost surely will outweight the risks.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Is there any other playoff team in the league that would banish a healthy, eager to play Tim Thomas?

I'd like to hear the argument as to why.

What a bizarre outfit Paxson runs. A backwards, flawed NBA philosophy, IMO.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Wynn said:


> Sounds to me like Thomas is the one making noise about wanting to join another team for a play-off run. The Bull simply told him his services weren't necessary, checks are in the mail.


The Bulls have been making noises about buying him out for quite some time as well.



> Thomas is the one who appears unwilling to meet the demands of the contract.


How so? In any sort of legal terms I can imagine, Thomas has demonstrated willingness to play. The Bulls couldn't make this case if they wanted to, because they publically states, at several points, that it wasn't any inability or unwillingness to play on Thomas' part that they sent him away for.

Now, you can say there are other things going on, that Thomas is a prima donna, etc, and that the Bulls were right to send him away, and I wouldn't even say I much disagreed or cared. But as far as legal rights are concerned, Thomas pretty clearly demonstrated what he'd need to if the case ever went to some sort of arbitration. Put simply:
1) He's stated he wanted to and was able to play on several occasions
2) The Bulls admitted they sent him away when he could play



> As much as anyone may feel that the Bull has mishandled Tim Thomas, the Bull is acting fully within the rights of the team granted in the contract. It appears, from all sides, that the Bull intends to honor the contract as written.


:clown: LOL. They will honor the contract, as written, of course, but I think it's clear they don't find this the best possible outcome. They prefer to buy Thomas out, save some money, and have him play for a team that's not directly competing for them. I don't think you seriously question that, and if you do, I'd wonder why you think they wouldn't prefer an option that provides them a better outcome like that.



> Thomas is the one, it appears, who finds this unsatisfactory.


I can't see that he believes it any more unsatisfactory than the Bulls do. *The real situation here is that neither party really prefers to honor the terms of the contract as its written.* The Bulls would like a bit of money savings and maybe the roster spot, but they don't want Thomas to have freedom to go help a competing team. Thomas wants the freedom, and he doesn't want to leave any money on the table. Why should he? From his persepective, he showed up willing and ready to play and he was sent home. Both sides would prefer to change the arrangement, but they want to negotiate the best possible deal for themselves in the change. There's really not a lot of difference between one and another.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Is there any other playoff team in the league that would banish a healthy, eager to play Tim Thomas?


Poor Timmy. He's so eager to get out there and help the team, but mean old Paxson won't let him.

Knowing his playing history, my money's on him wanting to play because he's a free agent this summer. Playing for a contender might mean getting the mid-level exception instead of the lower-level exception. I'd be eager to play, too!


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Knowing his playing history, my money's on him wanting to play because he's a free agent this summer. Playing for a contender might mean getting the mid-level exception instead of the lower-level exception. I'd be eager to play, too!


A professional working for money. Outrageous.

Fans often complain that *professional* athletes don't "earn" their money or that they are "overpaid." 

With TT, its time to rip him for the desire to work for money. Most human beings work for some type of incentive, usually money. TT is no different.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> A professional working for money. Outrageous.
> 
> Fans often complain that *professional* athletes don't "earn" their money or that they are "overpaid."
> 
> With TT, its time to rip him for the desire to work for money. Most human beings work for some type of incentive, usually money. TT is no different.


That's one key difference between average ballplayers and great ballplayers. Many classic underachievers see basketball as a job/chore. The great ones do it because they're passionate about it. Just like any career choice, really.

Seems to me TT just wants to do just enough to get his next contract. He's coasted basically his entire career because he's naturally gifted enough to do so. Not the sort of guy I want playing a meaningful role on my team.

It's a joke that anyone can really defend this guy. Just another excuse to bash Pax.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

yodurk said:


> That's one key difference between average ballplayers and great ballplayers. Many classic underachievers see basketball as a job/chore. The great ones do it because they're passionate about it. Just like any career choice, really.


I agree that TT could be a better player if he had a passion for the game. As he is right now, he's still more than competent.

That's why the world champion Spurs, the division leading Heat and Nets and the playoff bound and able to defeat our team while undermanned Sixers are interested in him.

Given the W/L records of the above successful teams, and the losing record of Paxson and “the right way,” perhaps their opinion should be valued.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

Anyone think that Thomas has been working on his game during his vacation? I am sure he comes back to the NBA as a much better defender since he had so much free time to improve his game's weak points. 

LMAO


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

L.O.B said:


> Anyone think that Thomas has been working on his game during his vacation? I am sure he comes back to the NBA as a much better defender since he had so much free time to improve his game's weak points.
> 
> LMAO



Who knows?

Successful teams like the Spurs, Heat, Nets and Sixers are interested in him for some reason.


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## bbertha37 (Jul 21, 2004)

They're interested because he's available for the vet minimum, and he's capable of playing a small role on those teams. Do you honestly expect TT to start or play a huge role on these teams? I'm curious if TT will still think "there's no way possible I shouldn't be playing 30, 35 minutes a game" on his new team.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

bbertha37 said:


> They're interested because he's available for the vet minimum, and he's capable of playing a small role on those teams. Do you honestly expect TT to start or play a huge role on these teams? I'm curious if TT will still think "there's no way possible I shouldn't be playing 30, 35 minutes a game" on his new team.


The successul teams mentioned do not seem as hung up on that as you are.

They are interested becuase he's a good basketball player than can help their team.

Good enough to play for a winner but not good enough to even be around the losing Paxson Bulls. LOL.


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## bbertha37 (Jul 21, 2004)

He certainly is good enough to play for us...but in his mind, he deserves more playing time than anybody on this team. This wouldn't have been a problem if TT could've accepted that he had been outplayed by Deng and Noc in training camp/preseason and that his playing time would reflect that. As I stated before, I don't think this will be a problem with the teams interested in him; TT is quite comfortable playing a small and uninspired role next to star players.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Who knows?
> 
> Successful teams like the Spurs, Heat, Nets and Sixers are interested in him for some reason.


It's funny how all those teams you mention have lots of veteran leadership, huh?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

bbertha37 said:


> He certainly is good enough to play for us...but in his mind, he deserves more playing time than anybody on this team. This wouldn't have been a problem if TT could've accepted that he had been outplayed by Deng and Noc in training camp/preseason and that his playing time would reflect that. As I stated before, I don't think this will be a problem with the teams interested in him; TT is quite comfortable playing a small and uninspired role next to star players.


This does seem like the kind of stuff that Paxson would be worried about.

That and Skiles’ inability to get along with him or play him if he didn't bust his arse in practice.


But, given Paxson's losing ways, perhaps his focus on such issues in the wrong way to approach things.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

Yo K2E,

The real shame is pax does not know how much POTENTIAL TT has. I mean in four or five years he could be an allstar due to his great POTENTIAL. Just think if we had not traded JC we would have both TT and JC two of the greatest POTENTIAL playes in the nba. All they need is a great coach to bring out there overwhelming POTENTIAL. How could we let TT go. With his work habits in five or six years he could be a STAR in the NBA. 

Dude, seriously TT is a cancer. His whole career his coaches have done nothing but complain about his tude and practice habits. Lazy, bad tude, only cares about himself. The guy is washed up at 29 years of age. My understanding he was one of the most hated players on the knicks and no one was upset that he was traded. He falls into my all Cancer head case team. JR Rider, J. Rose, Tim Thomas, Baron Davis, and Marbery.

These guys are the worst and i dont want any of them on the bulls no matter how much POTENTIAL they seem to have. The one thing they all have in common. LOSING TEAMS.

david


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

giusd said:


> He falls into my all Cancer head case team. JR Rider, J. Rose, Tim Thomas, Baron Davis, and Marbery.
> 
> These guys are the worst and i dont want any of them on the bulls no matter how much POTENTIAL they seem to have. The one thing they all have in common. LOSING TEAMS.
> 
> david


You are wrong.

Jalen Rose was the best player (EFF wise) on a team that went to the NBA Finals.

Baron Davis has played in 35 playoff games in his career. 5 seasons on a team in the playoffs. 2 time all-star. 

Marbury has been on 4 playoff teams and is a two time all star.

Tim Thomas has been on 5 playoff teams in his career. He easily has the most playoff experience of any Bull. In 2002-2003 TT averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds a game for the Bucks in the playoffs!


Just wrong.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

:sigh: 

Deng, 13 pts 6 rebounds 2 assists. Almost 1 steal a game and shooting 46%, 33% from threes. 20 years old. 31 minutes a game

Nocioni 11.6 26 minutes, 45% 42% in threes. 5.2 rebounds 1.3 assists. 

TT career...11.9 26.3 minutes. 44% 37% in threes. 4 rebounds 1.4 assists. 

TT was #3 on the depth chart. Where would he get his minutes from on this team if he was unwilling to win the position in practice? Both guys are better than he is. Period. Not only are they better now, they will continue to outplay him in the future. 

I dont see TT all of a sudden becoming a superstar once he hooks up with anothe team. You get what you get with Tim. A player not as good as Deng and Nocioni, Now can he help a playoff team that is not as deep as we are at the 3? Sure! But again, it would not be the same as adding a Deng or Nocioni to their team either!! 

I may have felt different if TT had tried once he got here. I get the feeling he didnt. I mean this was his last year of a huge contract, It would have behoved him to play hard so some team could pay him more than the MLE or even the veteran minimum. 

13% of all nba teams want him...now that the salary will not be an issue. If someone REALLY wanted him that bad he would not be here after the deadline.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> This does seem like the kind of stuff that Paxson would be worried about.
> 
> That and Skiles’ inability to get along with him or play him if he didn't bust his arse in practice.
> 
> ...


K4E,

Of course it's what Paxson is worried about. You don't tell the team that hard work and dedication to the game will lead them to greatness, then bring in max player Tim Thomas in his contract year.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

J. Rose cancer.

Baron Davis cancer

Marybery cancer

I am just plain right. I dont care how many games these guys have in the playoffs they are cancers period. All i read is how you hate pax in skiles. Fine but come up with something solid instead of the constant bs.

david


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

giusd said:


> J. Rose cancer.
> 
> Baron Davis cancer
> 
> ...



If cancers = deep runs into the playoffs, give me a cancer or two.

Beats being a jibby, boring, loser, IMO.

That being said, a team full of Baron Davis types would not be all that successful, IMO, but to write off a player like Baron Davis as a cancer is just wrong, IMO.

I would not mind the Bulls having more swagger/attitude at all.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Successful teams like the Spurs, Heat, Nets and Sixers are interested in him for some reason.


*Adrian Griffin* is playing very well for the Maverick. How far back in the *kukoc4ever!* archives do I have to go to find "Pax scrub" talk about Griffin?

Ditto *Hassell*.

*Dupree* has spent time with Dallas & Minnesota.

Philly, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Seattle, & Indiana have all found good use for *Kevin Ollie* 

Where's *Linton Johnson III* now?

Successful teams seem to thrive on our cast-offs. Why should *Tim Thomas* be any different.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Wynn said:


> Ditto *Hassell*.


Hassell was a Krause player.

If the players you mention are doing so well, why did Paxson let them go.

Seems like a losing team like ours could use them.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Hassell was a Krause player.
> 
> If the players you mention are doing so well, why did Paxson let them go.
> 
> Seems like a losing team like ours could use them.


These are all players who serve a similar role to that which Tim Thomas would play on any of the teams you mentioned.

They are also players who would have been defined by you as CBA scrubs on a Pax team, but integral cogs of their current teams.


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## Bolts (Nov 7, 2003)

There just seems to be no end to the lengths that some Bull's "fans" will go to justify every malcontent player that has ever been with the Bulls. It is the same ones every time.

Tim Thomas was banished only after joining the team. He wasn't told to not even bother showing up. He had a chance and showed himself to be a net negative for the team by the coach and gm. He must have really been a negative for the Bulls to tell its highest paid player not to come to work.

He is not going to play for the Bulls so why are some people so dead set on slamming the Bulls for not caving instantly to every whim of TT? I know why. Because those are not "bulls" fans but "player" fans.

I prefer the team.

Don't release TT unless it betters the team.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

It will be interesting to see if Tim Thomas is banished from any teams in the future.

Had be been banished from any teams in the past? Told to stay home?

Looking at his career, he's played pretty much a full season every year in the league.

Save for this one of course.

Maybe he could help show some of our players how to be an important cog on a team that actually wins a playoff series, or heck, even makes the playoffs.

I guess it’s a good thing that we kept Tim Thomas home this season. Meanwhile, the losses just keep piling up.


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## bbertha37 (Jul 21, 2004)

Simple Questions: Do you think TT should've displaced or supplanted Deng and Noc? If not, what role did he deserve to play on this team?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

bbertha37 said:


> Simple Questions: Do you think TT should've displaced or supplanted Deng and Noc? If not, what role did he deserve to play on this team?



Thomas can play the 2, 3 or 4.
Noc can play the 3 or 4.
Deng can play the 2 or 3.

These #1 picks and FAs that we are trumpeting up so much? Where are their minutes going to come from? Are Deng, Nocioni, Hinrich, Duhon, Gordon or Chandler going anywhere next season? 

There are minutes available. Any minutes on a losing team should be up for grabs.


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## bbertha37 (Jul 21, 2004)

Yes, but the whole point I've been trying to make and you've been ignoring, is that there aren't 30-35 minutes for TT. That's what he wanted. With the current makeup of our team, he felt he was entitled to them. He still does. The minutes we had up for grabs was a smaller role. He didn't appear to be down with that, and that's the issue. I've never doubted that TT could've played a small role on this team. I'm sure Pax and Skiles felt the same way. It's just a shame that TT couldn't accept the notion that his play and performance with respect to Deng and Noc (or whomever he'd be stealing minutes from at the 2) would dictate the amount of playing time he received.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

bbertha37 said:


> Yes, but the whole point I've been trying to make and you've been ignoring, is that there aren't 30-35 minutes for TT. That's what he wanted. With the current makeup of our team, he felt he was entitled to them. He still does. The minutes we had up for grabs was a smaller role. He didn't appear to be down with that, and that's the issue. I've never doubted that TT could've played a small role on this team. I'm sure Pax and Skiles felt the same way. It's just a shame that TT couldn't accept the notion that his play and performance with respect to Deng and Noc (or whomever he'd be stealing minutes from at the 2) would dictate the amount of playing time he received.


You are right, TT is accustomed to playing between 25-32 minutes a night (not 30-35). He's played between that range each of the last 7 seasons. 5 of those seasons his team made the playoffs. 

Is banishment the proper way to solve this issue? I wonder what Al Harrington, another average to slightly above average starting player that's accustomed to big minutes is going to think about this when picking out future destinations.

Also, bertha, I know you are referencing some quote Thomas made when you bring this point up.... would you mind reposting it and the article you got it from. Thanks.


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## bbertha37 (Jul 21, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> You are right, TT is accustomed to playing between 25-32 minutes a night (not 30-35).


I know the minutes he's played in the past. But his game is clearly on the decline. Everyone can see that. The contract he receives this summer will reflect that. In training camp and preseason, he was outplayed by Deng and Noc. You won't even deny that. He simply didn't earn the minutes he was accustomed to. But his ego said otherwise. As I've already referenced in this thread, this was a different situation for TT: “I got drafted by Philly and you had (Allen) Iverson and (Jerry) Stackhouse. I get traded from Philly to Milwaukee with Ray (Allen), Sam (Cassell) and Glenn (Robinson). And I get traded from Milwaukee to New York with scorers all around there." He felt like this would be his chance to shine because he finally wasn't playing next to any all-star vets. And as you requested, here's what he said in that other article: "To tell a veteran player that he's going to have a hard time playing for you ... I look around and see there's no way possible I shouldn't be playing 30, 35 minutes a game at any position he can play me in" (http://www.nj.com/nets/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1139637945124950.xml&coll=1). Does that sound like someone that's willing to play a considerably smaller role off the bench?



kukoc4ever said:


> 5 of those seasons his team made the playoffs.


You can probably thank Ray Ray, G-Rob, and Cassell for that. Anyway, I'm not saying he couldn't play a role on a good team. We could use him. Other teams can use him too. But he simply doesn't deserve the minutes he's played in previous seasons. And with those other teams, TT would simply look like a dummy if he complained about deferring to Duncan, Parker, Manu, Iverson, Kidd, Carter, Jefferson, etc. He's already been there and done that. It's never worked out. But on a team like ours...with no well-stablished veterans or stars...I could've easily seen him whining. But hey, that might just be me. 



kukoc4ever said:


> Is banishment the proper way to solve this issue? I wonder what Al Harrington, another average to slightly above average starting player that's accustomed to big minutes is going to think about this when picking out future destinations.


No, I don't think this was the proper way to solve the issue. But I understand it. Optimally, TT would've accepted his role. But that didn't seem like it was going to be the case. Personally, I would've let it play out a little longer and seen how TT reacted to getting 10-20 mpg and some DNP-CDs, but I surmise that would've developed into a distraction that we simply couldn't afford. And as far as Al Harrington is concerned, this is definitely something to be considered. He doesn't really fill a particular position of need. If we do sign him though, I could definitely see either Noc or Deng being used in a trade later. I mean, when it came time to resigning Crawford, didn't you essentially believe that even if a player doesn't fill a team's need, that acquiring/maintaining assets makes it easier to consolidate and trade later? Wouldn't signing Al make it more feasible to consolidate our other young talent for an all-star? But I guess that's an entirely different topic.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Tim Thomas is very likely to sign with the Phoenix Suns as soon as he clears waivers, heard that on the Suns radio station.


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