# Telfair stepping up



## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Telfair's Progress is clear in recent games



> A 20-point lead had disappeared, and the Celtics faced a 1-point deficit against the Knicks with 4:22 remaining last Saturday night in New York. Madison Square Garden was rocking. The deficit lasted exactly 23 seconds -- and Sebastian Telfair was the one who erased it.
> 
> He drove to the basket and missed. He got a second chance after Kendrick Perkins grabbed the rebound, and this time, Telfair connected. The Celtics never trailed again.
> 
> That, according to Telfair and coach Doc Rivers, was the Telfair that we should expect to see a lot more of now that the third-year guard is getting more comfortable in his new surroundings.





> He's done a lot more of that in the last 2 1/2 games, or ever since Danny Ainge went on WEEI and said Telfair was playing "fantastic basketball." At the time of Ainge's comments, Telfair was averaging 9.8 points and 3.1 assists while shooting 45.4 percent from the field. His defense could charitably be described as "evolving," as opposing point guards were killing the Celtics. If he was playing fantastic, few saw it.
> 
> But in the last three games, all Celtics wins, Telfair has averaged 13.7 points, 5.7 assists, and shot 56 percent. He outplayed his more celebrated cousin, Stephon Marbury, in New York, as Marbury scored only 8 points on 3-of-10 shooting in 44-plus minutes. That led Rivers to say yesterday that he was happy to see Telfair's "defensive intensity" being raised.
> 
> Even more impressive, Telfair's assists-to-turnover ratio is 3-1. In 256 minutes, he has committed only 13 turnovers. Paul Pierce had 12 in one game.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

as somebody who owns Telfair in a fantasy league but doesn't watch Boston play much can somebody explain why I never know what kind of production he'll give me? he's averaging like... 3 pts over the last 4 games or something!


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

We did not need his points last night.


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## Aznboi812 (Nov 9, 2005)

as long as hes dishing out assists hes fine


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## AMΣRICAN GOD™ (Jun 4, 2005)

Aznboi812 said:


> as long as hes dishing out assists hes fine


that's what he's here for i hope.:cheers:


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Aznboi812 said:


> as long as hes dishing out assists hes fine


I realize that but I assumed they wanted him to have an impact on games. Last night he had 6,3, and 5 so I assume from the stats he just wasn't very involved in running the team. I assumed he would blossom a little more this year.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

He's having a bad streak, but has performed above expectations this season, save his defense.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Premier said:


> He's having a bad streak, but has performed above expectations this season, save his defense.


What, you expected more?


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## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

Nice to see Telfair doing good in this young team!


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## pokpok (Jul 26, 2005)

hes stepping up, but hes not to the level i'd expect him to be..maybe thats why i rather see rondo on the court. i think telfair should really take it to the basket more often since he can easily get lay ups with his quickness..and please stop shooting 3's


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

Questions, Comments, Concerns please cantact aquaitious


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Quote has been edited, along with the respons. Once again Questions, Comments, Concerns please cantact aquaitious.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

It's not his fault that he was hyped so much coming out of high school, but he certainly hasn't lived up to it, or came even close, so far. The kid can, however, get his shot whenever he wants and literally blow by 95% of the guards in the NBA. He just never seems to want to.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

P-Dub34 said:


> It's not his fault that he was hyped so much coming out of high school, but he certainly hasn't lived up to it, or came even close, so far. The kid can, however, get his shot whenever he wants and literally blow by 95% of the guards in the NBA. He just never seems to want to.


I gotta be honest I thought it WAS partly his fault he was hyped so much, since he was a willing part of the marketing machine.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

essbee said:


> I gotta be honest I thought it WAS partly his fault he was hyped so much, since he was a willing part of the marketing machine.


Please show me a 17 year old kid from the projects, that is going to say "please don't hype me, I want to stay in the shadows of Coney Island".

Also when you are the highest scoring player in NYC HS history - and you win three city championships (never been done before) there will be hype.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Telfair shoots less, passes more when organizing an offense for suddenly hot Celtics



> He has a keen interest in all things Telfair, which is why [John] Nash paused on the subject last week before saying, “He’s playing more tentatively than I thought.”
> 
> The Celtics [team stats] point guard wasn’t in the mood to hear those words yesterday, saying, “*What’s this all about? We’re in the middle of a five-game winning streak, man.” *


Exactly.



> “He’s basically unselfish, and he’s doing what’s best for the team,” said Pierce. “I’ve told him that he’s doing a good job getting us into our offense. I don’t think his numbers are showing how good he has played for us. He’s doing a good job getting us into our sets.”





> “When you have five guys doing this well, there’s no need for me to search for points. My job is to push the ball and get us into plays. The way we’re playing makes my job a lot easier, and the biggest thing is that we’re winning games.”


Great attitude from the young guy.


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## Baller_8 (Dec 20, 2006)

its good that telfair is stepping up. its always good to have a pass 1st point gaurd on ur team


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> I gotta be honest I thought it WAS partly his fault he was hyped so much, since he was a willing part of the marketing machine.


I'd have to disagree, Causeway already covered it. And I still have that issue of SI kicking around my old house somewhere...


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Causeway said:


> Telfair shoots less, passes more when organizing an offense for suddenly hot Celtics
> 
> 
> 
> ...


do you think this stuff applied last night? He had 5,4, and 5. I think he's talented but I don't see his value to this team.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

essbee said:


> do you think this stuff applied last night? He had 5,4, and 5. I think he's talented but I don't see his value to this team.


Telfair played 22:51 minutes last night. He had a rough shooting night. 2-5 from the field. 1-4 on threes. 0 FT's. 5 assists and 4 rebounds. Not a great night. But not the reason we lost (by one point).

D West off the bench - with 33:54 minutes - also had a tough shooting night. 

Big Al was 5-7 from the field in 28 minutes. If you are 5-7 you should be getting the ball more - and shooting more. 

Gomes was 5-8 in 33 minutes - ditto above. 

Pierce 9-19 FG's and 4-9 on threes.


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## cgcatsfan (Jun 10, 2005)

I agree. I am very concerned that Gomes is being under utilized, after the year he had last year it shouldn't even be a question. 
Ditto for Al, he's been stepping it up too. Our guards had a rough night. It was kind of a heartbreaker.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

cgcatsfan said:


> I agree. I am very concerned that Gomes is being under utilized, after the year he had last year it shouldn't even be a question.
> Ditto for Al, he's been stepping it up too. Our guards had a rough night. It was kind of a heartbreaker.



Kind of??? It was a heartbreaker, no doubt about it that game sucked! We lost by 1, should have won it despite playing like crap. Al should have been given the ball a lot more. 
Telfair not impressing me. When game matters Delonte has to be put in, that says something.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

According to a yahoo article i read today telfair is 37th in the league in assists which seems to counter the "as long as he's passing" argument.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

essbee said:


> According to a yahoo article i read today telfair is 37th in the league in assists which seems to counter the "as long as he's passing" argument.




you cant just pick out assists per game and say hes not passing cuz hes 37th...hes only playing 27 mpg where most of the top 20 or 30 in apg play the majority of minutes in the game...as big of a critic as i am of telfair this arguement doesnt hold any weight


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> you cant just pick out assists per game and say hes not passing cuz hes 37th...hes only playing 27 mpg where most of the top 20 or 30 in apg play the majority of minutes in the game...as big of a critic as i am of telfair this arguement doesnt hold any weight


He's the starting pg, and if he were more effective he'd play even more minutes. It seems to follow logic that the reason he isn't playing more minutes is because of ineffectiveness, exemplified by him also shooting 42% from the field. It's not as if the mpg are unrelated to his play, and based on those apm numbers a few extra minutes wouldn't make much of a difference in his stats or impact on the game.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3711


tj ford is only playing 32 mpg if this is correct and averages almost double Telfair's nightly output as well as scoring more.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> According to a yahoo article i read today telfair is 37th in the league in assists which seems to counter the "as long as he's passing" argument.


He's passing the ball, he's just not a huge playmaker. 



> tj ford is only playing 32 mpg if this is correct and averages almost double Telfair's nightly output as well as scoring more.


What's your point? T.J. Ford is a vastly superior point guard with college and more pro experience. That's like saying Steve Nash is owning Jarrett Jack in terms of assists.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

P-Dub34 said:


> He's passing the ball, he's just not a huge playmaker.
> 
> 
> What's your point? T.J. Ford is a vastly superior point guard with college and more pro experience. That's like saying Steve Nash is owning Jarrett Jack in terms of assists.


It's not complicated, the post said that Telfair's numbers were low because he's not playing enough minutes so I found someone who plays a relatively low number of minutes and produces in a much better capacity. I'm trying to figure out what Telfair's value is if he isn't a playmaker and can't shoot.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

He can shoot. And he can score. But he choosing to move the ball. It's not complicated.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: Telfair stepping up"*



Causeway said:


> He can shoot. And he can score. But he choosing to move the ball. It's not complicated.


Really?

He shot under 40% his first two seasons and is shooting 41.9% this year including 27% from three pt land. Your definition of "can shoot" seems to be "physically capable of throwing the ball somewhere near the rim" but that's not what I meant by it.

Do you guys actually do any basketball analysis here or do all your arguments come down to "nuh uh" vs. "uh huh"?


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: Telfair stepping up"*



essbee said:


> Do you guys actually do any basketball analysis here or do all your arguments come down to "nuh uh" vs. "uh huh"?



Unnecessary -aqua


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> so I found someone who plays a relatively low number of minutes and produces in a much better capacity. I'm trying to figure out what Telfair's value is if he isn't a playmaker and can't shoot.


Wasn't Ford an ex-SI College Player of the Year?


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: Telfair stepping up"*



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> Quote deleted.


Same as above. -aqua


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

*Re: Telfair stepping up"*



essbee said:


> Really?
> 
> He shot under 40% his first two seasons and is shooting 41.9% this year including 27% from three pt land. Your definition of "can shoot" seems to be "physically capable of throwing the ball somewhere near the rim" but that's not what I meant by it.
> 
> Do you guys actually do any basketball analysis here or do all your arguments come down to "nuh uh" vs. "uh huh"?



Do you actually watch any games, or players? Your deep analysis has said nothing other than spitting out box scores. Impressive.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: Telfair stepping up"*



Causeway said:


> Do you actually watch any games, or players? Your deep analysis has said nothing other than spitting out box scores. Impressive.


yes I do, I've only watched a few games with the Celts which is why I asked if there was something beyond Telfair seeming to be a non-factor. Do you have an explanation yet for why a guy you say can shoot has never shot over 42%? It seems like you guys just duck behind each other's support when you're faced with reality.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

His shooting has been off.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

for his whole career? lmao


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Yup it's been a real long career. He's done.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

See, it's obvious you aren't used to making points and actually backing them up, because whenever your logic is criticized you have to fall back on weak sarcasm that doesn't actually address anything. 2 and a half years to begin a career would be considered by most people to establish trends. The idea that you say he can shoot despite no evidence that he can is absolute nonsense.

All this can be solved of course by you proving that 40% is a good shooting percentage for a guard, or showing that my numbers are wrong, but that would require that you actually understand something about basketball which might be asking too much at this point.

He's very talented and should be a good playmaker, but obviously something is wrong.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

oh yeah, I want to take this time to say Inka Dare was a great passer. Not because there's any proof of it but because I say so, which I think should be enough.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

You are a pain in the *** - that's why I am sarcastic. You have no desire to actually talk hoops - just get into it with whoever will take your bait.

However since all you seem to be able to come up with - besides snide remarks - is number, and you admit to not really even having seen Telfair play, here's some numbers.

Your boy TJ Ford is a career .413 from the field and .304 from 3's.


Billups in his first season had a fg % of .349 and .316 from 3's.

I could go on but you'll come back with some sarcasm. Telfair is 21. He'll be fine. FOr a 21 year old point guard I have no problem with his shooting.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

I understand what you're trying to say, essbee, but you're facetious remarks about "his whole career" - what a long one that's been - only annoy people and makes them not want to get into it with you. The point is Telfair's not a great shooter right now, but he did begin the year shooting well and he's liable to improve if he puts the effort into it.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

BTW, you are still guilty of trying to compare a kid fresh out of high school with a guy who has won the most prestigious individual award in college hoops. Something's not right here.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Causeway said:


> You are a pain in the *** - that's why I am sarcastic. You have no desire to actually talk hoops - just get into it with whoever will take your bait.
> 
> However since all you seem to be able to come up with - besides snide remarks - is number, and you admit to not really even having seen Telfair play, here's some numbers.
> 
> ...


actually I watched him quite a bit in Portland, I said I haven't seen him play much in Boston. Try paying attention. 

Billups shot poorly in his first season, and TJ Ford has a weak outside shot. Yet Ford still manages to have an actual impact on games. Unlike you I don't have opinions that are defied by reality.

Unnecessary personal attack. -aqua


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

P-Dub34 said:


> BTW, you are still guilty of trying to compare a kid fresh out of high school with a guy who has won the most prestigious individual award in college hoops. Something's not right here.


Well when I said he was 37th in the league in assists somebody said it was because of minutes. So I had to use the comparison to Ford because Ford plays a close amount of minutes to him. 

Then somebody said Telfair could shoot and I pointed out that he's never shot well since coming to the NBA. EVER. And I have to hear that i'm being an ******* for using... stats. While there's a time and a place for stats to be ignored, I don't think SHOOTING PERCENTAGE is something to ignore when you're talking about whether or not somebody can SHOOT.

Are you saying Telfair should only be compared to garbage time players? They're both starters. Am I not supposed to compare one starting point guard to another just because one decided to skip college?


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

essbee said:


> Quote deleted -aqua




Unnecessary response to personal attack. -aqua


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Unnecessary. -aqua


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

essbee you continue to accuse people - other than you of course - of being idiots, being shallow, and not having deep insights into hoops. What the **** have you added to this thread that was so insightful? That TJ ford is better than Telfair. Nice. Thanks for that one. 

Ideally your PG shoots well enough to keep the D honest. Telfair does that. And his shooting and decision making should improve. He is 21. He'll be fine. Come back with your ******** in a few years to really get an idea of Telfair. 


Unnecessary personal attack. -aqua


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

essbee said:


> Billups shot poorly in his first season,



Only his first season? Wrong. Again.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Telfair stepping up"*



essbee said:


> Really?
> 
> He shot under 40% his first two seasons and is shooting 41.9% this year including 27% from three pt land. Your definition of "can shoot" seems to be "physically capable of throwing the ball somewhere near the rim" but that's not what I meant by it.
> 
> Do you guys actually do any basketball analysis here or do all your arguments come down to "nuh uh" vs. "uh huh"?


Some of us believe in that sort of thing. But we generally get shouted down.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Causeway said:


> Only his first season? Wrong. Again.


Actually it didn't say he only shot poorly in his first season. You quoted the stats from his first season and I said it was a reflection of the fact that he shot poorly that year. Your post specifically said:

"Billups in his first season had a fg % of .349 and .316 from 3's."

My response said 

"Billups shot poorly in his first season"

How can you possibly be confused by something that simple? 
whereas with you, I quote that Telfair shoots around 39-41% every year and you say he can shoot. The real answer is no, he can't shoot, and he needs to learn to. In fact you're now going from the "he CAN shoot" to the "come back in a few years when he improves" argument. 

Personal attack edit. -aqua


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Well when I said he was 37th in the league in assists somebody said it was because of minutes. So I had to use the comparison to Ford because Ford plays a close amount of minutes to him.


Okay, but don't you see that we know that Telfair can't see T.J. Ford's level right now? That's pretty obvious.



> I don't think SHOOTING PERCENTAGE is something to ignore when you're talking about whether or not somebody can SHOOT.


Not saying Telfair can shoot the rock real well, but Shaq must be a hell of a shooter if FG% is what we're using here.



> Are you saying Telfair should only be compared to garbage time players? They're both starters.


You can compare him to whoever you want. Why not compare him to a guard that has similar ability?



> Am I not supposed to compare one starting point guard to another just because one decided to skip college?


It's like comparing Ford to Steve Nash. There is no comparision. You also forget that one played in one of the top colleges in the country, undoubtedly paying huge dividends in terms of refining his game, and during his time there he was the 2003 PoY. So why compare Telfair to somebody who quite obviously is a better player? It just doesn't accomplish anything.



> Quote deleted. -aqua


Reply deleted. -aqua


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Same as below. -aqua

I will say it again for you essbee - slowly this time. 

Would I like to see Telfair shoot better? Yes. Is is capable of shooting better? I believe so. Do defenders respect his shot enough now as to not slack off him on D? Pretty much. 

And yes - saying he's 21 is a valid statement. 
Quote deleted and let's not bring another person into it. -aqua


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

The original point of this thread was during a win streak where Telfair was playing particularly well:



> But in the last three games, all Celtics wins, Telfair has averaged 13.7 points, 5.7 assists, and shot 56 percent. He outplayed his more celebrated cousin, Stephon Marbury, in New York, as Marbury scored only 8 points on 3-of-10 shooting in 44-plus minutes. That led Rivers to say yesterday that he was happy to see Telfair's "defensive intensity" being raised.
> 
> Even more impressive, Telfair's assists-to-turnover ratio is 3-1. In 256 minutes, he has committed only 13 turnovers. Paul Pierce had 12 in one game.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

essbee said:


> I quote that Telfair shoots around 39-41% every year and you say he can shoot. The real answer is no, he can't shoot, and he needs to learn to. In fact you're now going from the "he CAN shoot" to the "come back in a few years when he improves" argument.Quote deleted. -aqua



Get a better arguement please. Allen Iverson has a career FG% of 42 and a 3PT% of 31...sit there and tell me with a straight face that Allen Iverson can't shoot because of his percentages.

Personal attack edit and some grammar and spelling mistakes have been taken care of. -aqua 

Oh yeah, Merry Christmas everyone.


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## AMΣRICAN GOD™ (Jun 4, 2005)

The love in this thread is palpable.


I think it's much better now with all the red...I should have added some green to make it Christmassy. -aqua.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

And my two cents.

At the begining of the season Telfair was knocking jump shots regulary, but right now he's gone back to the same way he was shooting at Portland, a low percentage.

When he came over here he was advertized as a awful shooter, so I guess that he's making his shots at 42% we've learned to appreciate.

Personally, I wouldn't call him a "bad" shooter, rather I'd call him "avererage" when compared to most of today's NBA.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> Get a better arguement please. Allen Iverson has a career FG% of 42 and a 3PT% of 31...sit there and tell me with a straight face that Allen Iverson can't shoot because of his percentages.
> 
> Personal attack edit and some grammar and spelling mistakes have been taken care of. -aqua
> 
> Oh yeah, Merry Christmas everyone.


Allen Iverson is a streak shooter, not a pure shooter, which accounts for all the games where he shoots poorly. One of the main reasons he scores so much is that like most great modern scorers he's relentless in taking it the paint -- which it takes to get to the free throw line constantly -- which is why he'll often have 10-11 points a game just from the charity stripe. He's also a bulk scorer, and though I love him as a player if he were forced to play in more structured offenses he wouldn't score as much because he has to shoot himself into rhythms. If you think Iverson has a good consistent jump shot you should stop talking about basketball forever. For COMPARISON, while I don't like Kobe, his jump shot is outstanding, and the times where Kobe has had low shooting percentages is usually due to the difficulty of the shots he's been willing to take over double and triple teams instead of passing the ball.

It probably helps if you've actually played any basketball.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

P-Dub34 said:


> Okay, but don't you see that we know that Telfair can't see T.J. Ford's level right now? That's pretty obvious.
> 
> 
> Not saying Telfair can shoot the rock real well, but Shaq must be a hell of a shooter if FG% is what we're using here.


Either that or the criteria for Centers and Point Guards are as different as night and day, which is why Telfair is being compared to OTHER POINT GUARDS. It's one of those, but even in comparing him to other starting pg's you say it's unfair. 



> You can compare him to whoever you want. Why not compare him to a guard that has similar ability?


His skillset is remarkably similar to TJ Ford's actually. They're both 6 ft., 160lbs soaking wet, lightning fast point guards with good dribble penetration and poor outside shooting ability (Which i still think is due to lack of strength training or muscle percentage for both). They're both in their third season of pro play since TJ missed the season after the bad fall. Who would you like him compared to? Gilbert Arenas? Eric Snow? Dennis Johnson?




> It's like comparing Ford to Steve Nash. There is no comparision. You also forget that one played in one of the top colleges in the country, undoubtedly paying huge dividends in terms of refining his game, and during his time there he was the 2003 PoY. So why compare Telfair to somebody who quite obviously is a better player? It just doesn't accomplish anything.


 Well if he's 37th in assists and can't shoot the idea is that comparing him to better players allows us to MEASURE HOW WELL he's playing. It's called benchmarking. I never thought of this as a foreign concept.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Comparing Ford to Telfair - is not apples to apples. You continue to ignore the value of Ford's stellar college career and experience to Telfair's zero college experience. It matters.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Comparing Ford to Telfair - is not apples to apples. You continue to ignore the value of Ford's stellar college career and experience to Telfair's zero college experience. It matters.


Danke. I thought that was fairly clear, but I guess not. When you consider this would the start of Telfair's junior year and that Ford went to the NBA to forego his junior and senior seasons, it makes a world of difference. Not everybody is LeBron James and can make the jump from high school to pro with no sweat. Look at what college has done for a guy like Ryan Gomes.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

P-Dub34 said:


> Danke. I thought that was fairly clear, but I guess not. When you consider this would the start of Telfair's junior year and that Ford went to the NBA to forego his junior and senior seasons, it makes a world of difference. Not everybody is LeBron James and can make the jump from high school to pro with no sweat. Look at what college has done for a guy like Ryan Gomes.


So you guys seriously think Telfair should only be compared to point guards who have come straight out of high school? Telfair wasn't forced to come straight to the pros, he CHOSE to. Again, just go ahead and say WHO it is Telfair deserves to be compared to since based on your current checklist he can't be compared to:

-Good point guards 
-Veteran point guards
-Point guards with a lot of minutes per game
-Great point guards
-point guards who went to college and did well


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

You know, most people that are as obtuse and condescending as yourself generally like to make sure that they, you know, actually read the posts they're responding to.



essbee said:


> So you guys seriously think Telfair should only be compared to point guards who have come straight out of high school?


Umm, comparing him to those players would actually make a lot of sense in seeing where he's at in this stage of his career. But, as I mentioned and you completely ingored (go figure):



P-Dub34 said:


> *You can compare him to whoever you want.* Why not compare him to a guard that has similar ability?


Ordinarily I'd break this down further, but since you've proven yourself incapable of grasping the concept I've been hammering in the last however many posts, I don't even want to waste my time with it. That being said, unless I dissect this into a way you can comprehend, you're just going to fire back with another snide post. So here goes.

There is no comparision between T.J. Ford and Sebastian Telfair in terms of how good they are. You cited Ford as putting up better assist numbers in the same amount of minutes; this is largely due to his college experience and the fact that he is, in fact, a better player. Tell me, exactly, what the point you're trying to make is - that Telfair isn't a great playmaker? Oops. We've conceded that one already. Your inability to understand the point I'm trying to make here is mind-boggling.

So what's your problem?


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Actually the issue is that you DON'T have a point to make. You guys have gone from saying he was playing fine, scoring as much as the team needed, and a good shooter to admitting he's not a good shooter, isn't a playmaker, and doesn't measure up to hardly any other point guards in the league in a span of a few pages. That's plenty for me.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Actually the issue is that you DON'T have a point to make. You guys have gone from saying he was playing fine, scoring as much as the team needed, and a good shooter to admitting he's not a good shooter, isn't a playmaker, and doesn't measure up to hardly any other point guards in the league in a span of a few pages. That's plenty for me.


"You guys." I don't recollect saying his shooting, passing, scoring, defense, etc. was that great. In fact, in _another_ post you neglected to read (stunning!) I even said:



P-Dub34 said:


> *It's not his fault that he was hyped so much coming out of high school, but he certainly hasn't lived up to it, or came even close, so far. *


You know, ordinarily to make a point with somebody, you have to know what the hell you're talking about. Now, if you have a beef with something contradictory _I've_ said, I'm more than willing to hear it. If you're going to keep feeding me this nonsense about non-existent posts I've made about Telfair being this and that, then stop wasting my time.

Oh, and I'm _still_ waiting on what your point was comparing Telfair to Ford, other than Ford's a better playmaker. Because I know I've never said Telfair's passing abilities were anything more than average.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Other than attempt to contradict almost every post in here - and to compare Telfair to Ford - essbee has not made any basketball point at all.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

P-Dub34 said:


> "You guys." I don't recollect saying his shooting, passing, scoring, defense, etc. was that great. In fact, in _another_ post you neglected to read
> 
> 
> You know, ordinarily to make a point with somebody, you have to know what the hell you're talking about. Now, if you have a beef with something contradictory _I've_ said, I'm more than willing to hear it. If you're going to keep feeding me this nonsense about non-existent posts I've made about Telfair being this and that, then stop wasting my time.


I lump you all together because you're so eager to defend one another even when you're making asinine comments like saying that Telfair can shoot and that his percentages are irrelevant. The key is that if somebody says something that stupid and they're a Celts fan you won't correct them no matter how stupid it is, so why wouldn't I lump all of you together? Whenever I quoted someone else and pointed out how they were wrong, you jump into the conversation and respond. Just like Antoinewalkerfan's post that he didn't have the numbers because of limited minutes. That's WHY Ford was brought into the conversation since their minutes are comparable. But i'll go ahead and outline the things you've said that make no sense, namely:



> "T.J. Ford is a vastly superior point guard with college and more pro experience.that's like saying Steve Nash is owning Jarrett Jack in terms of assists."


That's wrong I pointed out that they've both played for three years because Ford missed a year with injury. Ford has played 154 total games in the pros. Telfair has played 161 total games in the pros. Please, go ahead and explain to me how Ford has more pro experience. I'll wait.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> I lump you all together because you're so eager to defend one another even when you're making asinine comments like saying that Telfair can shoot and that his percentages are irrelevant.


Odd. Don't remember saying that, either. Man, you are really making this difficult.



> The key is that if somebody says something that stupid and they're a Celts fan you won't correct them no matter how stupid it is, so why wouldn't I lump all of you together? Whenever I quoted someone else and pointed out how they were wrong, you jump into the conversation and respond.


Nope, sorry - wrong yet again. I actually agree that Telfair isn't a really good shooter, and I haven't really been impressed with him this year. However, I did have some qualms with things you said, yes. So if you could focus on what I've said, and not what other people have said that you hold me accountable for in some twisted way, that'd be outstanding.



> That's wrong I pointed out that they've both played for three years because Ford missed a year with injury. Ford has played 154 total games in the pros. Telfair has played 161 total games in the pros. Please, go ahead and explain to me how Ford has more pro experience. I'll wait.


Odd - I thought Ford had played longer. I was wrong. So their pro experience is more or less equal. Too bad one of them played two years in one of the best college programs in the country.



> But i'll go ahead and outline the things you've said that make no sense


Anything else you'd like me to cover? And I mean things I've said, not what others have, because I can't read minds. Sorry. Aside from the neglible difference in their pro games, which I was, admittedly, off on, you really have absolutely nothing of any substance left to say to me, do you?


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

P-Dub34 said:


> Odd. Don't remember saying that, either. Man, you are really making this difficult.
> 
> 
> Nope, sorry - wrong yet again. I actually agree that Telfair isn't a really good shooter, and I haven't really been impressed with him this year. However, I did have some qualms with things you said, yes. So if you could focus on what I've said, and not what other people have said that you hold me accountable for in some twisted way, that'd be outstanding.


 Sure, from now on I'll only address the points you've made.



> Odd - I thought Ford had played longer. I was wrong. So their pro experience is more or less equal. Too bad one of them played two years in one of the best college programs in the country.


That's because the other one CHOSE not to play in college, which is entirely his own decision. In making the decision to skip college he was declaring that he didn't NEED it to work on his game and was ready for the pros immediately, so there's no excuse just because someone else chose to go the longer route. This insistence you have that Telfair not be compared to players who deferred large paydays to become better players is the other way you're glaringly wrong. It ties into your previous comment which was:

"It's not his fault that he was hyped so much coming out of high school, but he certainly hasn't lived up to it, or came even close, so far. The kid can, however, get his shot whenever he wants and literally blow by 95% of the guards in the NBA. He just never seems to want to."

It absolutely IS his fault for being hyped, because if you combine the limited production and progress (I had him pegged as a breakout player this year on the basis of speed and agility alone) he shows with his lack of interest in college it becomes pretty apparent that his main concern in coming to the NBA was either a big pay day or a lack of interest in hard work. Either way he manufactured and used that hype around him (as well as his relation to Marbury) to parlay name recognition into being a 1st round pick.It's pretty clear he was perfectly comfortable taking advantage of the hype while not being nearly qualified for the NBA. Is it really TJ Ford's fault that he worked harder than Telfair and went to college? If I ask two people to do the same job and they have similar skillsets and one of them fails, him turning around to me and saying "it's not my fault, I didn't study for as longa s he did" would get me to laugh in his face. It's a ridiculous excuse.



> Anything else you'd like me to cover? And I mean things I've said, not what others have, because I can't read minds. Sorry. Aside from the neglible difference in their pro games, which I was, admittedly, off on, you really have absolutely nothing of any substance left to say to me, do you?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

This is good, we're actually getting somewhere now.



> That's because the other one CHOSE not to play in college, which is entirely his own decision. In making the decision to skip college he was declaring that he didn't NEED it to work on his game and was ready for the pros immediately, so there's no excuse just because someone else chose to go the longer route.


Whoa, hold on there, you're making assumptions. Reasons to go to the pros could include the money (obviously very important to a kid in his situation) and the risk you take going to college - if he blows out his knee in college, he doesn't make a dime. He could also hurt his draft stock considerably by playing in college and performing below expectations. So, unless you have a link where Telfair said he didn't NEED college, you cannot say that's why he skipped it. It may be - but you can't infer that.



> This insistence you have that Telfair not be compared to players who deferred large paydays to become better players is the other way you're glaringly wrong.


I'm sorry, I really didn't understand this. I'm wrong because I said that there's no need to compare him to Ford because Ford is clearly a better player? That doesn't make sense. 



> It absolutely IS his fault for being hyped


Explain. Did he go to Sports Illustrated and make them put him on the cover? No. If by "his fault," you mean he was playing too damn good to not be noticed, then you're right. Otherwise this, too, doesn't make much sense.



> because if you combine the limited production and progress (I had him pegged as a breakout player this year on the basis of speed and agility alone) he shows with his lack of interest in college it becomes pretty apparent that his main concern in coming to the NBA was either a big pay day or a lack of interest in hard work.


Wait, I thought Telfair skipped college because he didn't need it, not because he didn't want to work hard or wanted a big pay day? Because that's what you said earlier. I, too, am disappointed with him. That being said, he still is twenty-one and he has all the time in the world to improve. Look at Tracy McGrady, or Jermaine O'Neal. Kids fresh out of HS often need time. As I said, not everybody's LeBron James.



> Either way he manufactured and used that hype around him (as well as his relation to Marbury) to parlay name recognition into being a 1st round pick.


You really need to elaborate how he did that. How is it his fault that major publications like SI were raving about him? If SI asks to put you on the cover, do you think a high school kid is going to say no? Are you insane? Additionally, in another contradiction, which was it: Telfair knew he wasn't ready for the pros but evilly swindled the Blazers, or he thought he was ready for the pros so he skipped college? Which is it, bud? Because it can't be both. 



> It's pretty clear he was perfectly comfortable taking advantage of the hype while not being nearly qualified for the NBA.


Again, is he supposed to say, "no, don't draft me in the first round and give me millions of dollars?" And, despite not being a superstar, he is a legit NBA player capable of playing an effective 25-30mpg. So, yes, he is qualified for the NBA.



> Is it really TJ Ford's fault that he worked harder than Telfair and went to college?


Putting words in my mouth again. Never blamed Ford for anything. This is baseless.



> If I ask two people to do the same job and they have similar skillsets and one of them fails, him turning around to me and saying "it's not my fault, I didn't study for as longa s he did" would get me to laugh in his face. It's a ridiculous excuse.


Irrelevant, too, because I never said it's _not_ Telfair's fault that he's not as good as Ford. You continually try to manufacture things I've said in order to prop up your argument (which is getting so effing old, I gotta say). You pointed out Ford is better than Telfair - I said it's largely in part to his college experience, which, as much as you hate it, is true. You seem to think I'm defending Telfair - I'm not. I'm just speaking the truth.

Considering the "points" you've brought up, a simple "no" to my original query would have been equally effective, and saved us both time. Your post is chock-laden with half truths, things I didn't say, and an inordinate amount of contradiction (he didn't think he needed college, oh wait, he knew he was ready but wanted the money, which is it again? Can you even keep track of what you're saying?)

Ironically, you're doing the _exact_ same thing you've been bagging on Causeway for - changing your mind mid-post when it's convenient for you.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

P-Dub34 said:


> Whoa, hold on there, you're making assumptions. Reasons to go to the pros could include the money (obviously very important to a kid in his situation) and the risk you take going to college - if he blows out his knee in college, he doesn't make a dime. He could also hurt his draft stock considerably by playing in college and performing below expectations. So, unless you have a link where Telfair said he didn't NEED college, you cannot say that's why he skipped it. It may be - but you can't infer that...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From watching Through the Fire it seemed to me that Telfair felt he was NBA-ready without college. In fact his family had some editorial control over that documentary, and the filmmaker was welcomed to chronicle Telfair's life. This again addresses the point of whether or not the hype had anything to do with him, since he and his family are clearly the ones who manufactured the national press. I'm sure I can find links where people address the fact that his family had partial editorial rights over the documentary as well as showing that it gave an inside perspective which he agreed to. They AGREED to give the maker of Hoop Dreams an inside look at his life, it wasn't some kind of random media phenomena. Let me know if you need them.



> I'm sorry, I really didn't understand this. I'm wrong because I said that there's no need to compare him to Ford because Ford is clearly a better player? That doesn't make sense.


In other words when people say he's doing fine and we look at someone else who's doing much better it shows that they aren't making sense, unless its' somebody like Kirilenko whose contributions are largely intangible. The fact that Ford is much better is the entire point. Again, you're more than welcome to find a player who you think we should compare telfair to. Chris Paul? I think Chris Paul is around 21 years old and this is only his 2nd year in the league. If you guys prefer I can use him as a comparison instead. The fact is he's a starting pg, he should be compared to other starting pgs. It's really that simple. Chris Paul only had two years of college, want me to break out his numbers this year and last? That would get rid of the crappy "he's only 21 years old" argument. Says here he was born in May of 1985. Sounds like a 21 year old to me.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3930







> Wait, I thought Telfair skipped college because he didn't need it, not because he didn't want to work hard or wanted a big pay day? Because that's what you said earlier..
> 
> 
> Are you insane? Additionally, in another contradiction, which was it: Telfair knew he wasn't ready for the pros but evilly swindled the Blazers, or he thought he was ready for the pros so he skipped college? Which is it, bud? Because it can't be both...


 I said he was DECLARING (I thought I put that in caps) that he didn't need college, which announcing your readiness for the NBA draft out of high school should be saying. I think the real reason behind the declaration is that he isn't a hard worker and wanted an instant payday. And I think he used the hype machine to help himself on both fronts.





> And, despite not being a superstar, he is a legit NBA player capable of playing an effective 25-30mpg. So, yes, he is qualified for the NBA.


Sorry but 37th in the league in assists from a third year player who starts at point guard is not effective especially when he's scoring less than 10 points a game. What standards are you using now for "effective"? 




> Irrelevant, too, because I never said it's _not_ Telfair's fault that he's not as good as Ford. You continually try to manufacture things I've said in order to prop up your argument (which is getting so effing old, I gotta say). You pointed out Ford is better than Telfair - I said it's largely in part to his college experience, which, as much as you hate it, is true. You seem to think I'm defending Telfair - I'm not. I'm just speaking the truth.


And I'm saying that if college made that big of a difference, Telfair shouldn't have come straight to the NBA at all. Again, by doing so he declared that he was ready to play, when in reality he wasn't.



> Considering the "points" you've brought up, a simple "no" to my original query would have been equally effective, and saved us both time. Your post is chock-laden with half truths, things I didn't say, and an inordinate amount of contradiction (he didn't think he needed college, oh wait, he knew he was ready but wanted the money, which is it again? Can you even keep track of what you're saying?)


 That's addressed above. Are you able to keep track of how many games people have played? Because you know... the whole "Ford has more experience in the pros than Telfair" thing has the ring of somebody who doesn't pay much attention before speaking.



> Ironically, you're doing the _exact_ same thing you've been bagging on Causeway for - changing your mind mid-post when it's convenient for you.


That wouldn't be irony, that would be hypocrisy. And no, i'm not. Let me know if you need any more words defined.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Jesus, we're certainly not getting anywhere. Perhaps I'll address you point-by-point tomorrow, but I don't feel like any more tonight.

Except this, I found funny:



> That wouldn't be irony, that would be hypocrisy. And no, i'm not. Let me know if you need any more words defined.


Very elitist. 

One of irony's definitions (according to dictionary.com) - "an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected." You contradicting yourself after condemning it fits the bill for that quite nicely. So if you could at least take the time to make sure you were correct, aqua that'd be greatly appreciated.


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

ok,im not one or long wind arguments and re-pasting **** people said so ill just give my two-pence and shut up 

I have intimate knowledge of telfair and his game,he`s basically a poor mans allen iverson,stop him from driving and he cant do anything else,his shot selection is poor at best and he spends too much time worrying about his image and bad mouthing stephon to ever improve(or try to) his game

Kids attitude is bad


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

P-Dub34 said:


> Very elitist.
> 
> One of irony's definitions (according to dictionary.com) - "an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected." You contradicting yourself after condemning it fits the bill for that quite nicely. So if you could at least take the time to make sure you were correct, aqua that'd be greatly appreciated.


Giggidy-goo. -aqua.

The use of irony when it's relating to "surprising outcomes" pertains to things like 'peace-keeping' efforts which escalate violence in a region; in other words an ironic series of events where the intention, or stated goals, have opposite effects. Saying that someone is doing something after accusing someone else of doing it doesn't even fall into the definition you quoted. It falls under the definition of hypocrisy. Hypocrisy, which is what you were attempting to describe, is something entirely different. This should've been one of the first thing covered in any beginning English courses you've taken.


Definition of hypocrite

"a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, *principles*, etc., *that he or she does not actually possess*, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs."



vs what you said:

" Ironically, *you're doing the exact same thing you've been bagging on Causeway for*"

let's correct it so it sounds like English is your first language:

"hypocritically, you're doing the exact same thing you've been bagging on Causeway for"


Let me know if you need any other basic terms of our language explained to you.


Also, please keep all spelling test questions in the off topic forum. Another definition will result in the whole post being deleted.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

essbee said:


> I said he was DECLARING (I thought I put that in caps) that he didn't need college, which announcing your readiness for the NBA draft out of high school should be saying. I think the real reason behind the declaration is that he isn't a hard worker and wanted an instant payday. And I think he used the hype machine to help himself on both fronts.


I don't follow this point. I'm not sure if you "declare" for the NBA it means you're ready. After a few years half the picks made don't have a contract. Teams take long term chances. In fact, more than half the Celtics roster isn't NBA ready. Perkins wasn't, Jefferson wasn't, Green wasn't, and until about two weeks ago you could say all three still were not.



essbee said:


> Sorry but 37th in the league in assists from a third year player who starts at point guard is not effective especially when he's scoring less than 10 points a game. What standards are you using now for "effective"?


I don't speak for either Causeway nor P-Dub, but I'm gonna say the "long term" standard, where we've seen what we like out of the point guard position coming from a player that's removed just two years out of high school. No he's not perfect, nor would he be a starter on almost any other NBA team (he wasn't on last year's 2nd worst team in the NBA) but so far he's exceeding many people's expectations...and disappointing others. (The Boston media made Telfair a savior in the offseason.)



essbee said:


> And I'm saying that if college made that big of a difference, Telfair shouldn't have come straight to the NBA at all. Again, by doing so he declared that he was ready to play, when in reality he wasn't.


Put yourself in his shoes. You're 18 years old, you have a chance to go to college play basketball and then fullfil your dream and go to the NBA...or you're 18 years old, you're guaranteed you'll be picked in the 1st round and can live your dream as soon as the draft comes by.

Once again, just because he declared himself, it didn't mean he was ready to step him. There are not five high school players in the NBA who've made an impact in his first season. There are probably not 15 who've made an impact the 2nd year.


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