# Official 108,398,433rd Kobe v. LeBron Slugfest



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

The results are in, and at a staggering rate. Kobe thumps LeBron 73% > 27%.

The Nation and World has spoken.

Link and opportunity for you to vote here.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/index

Thoughts ?


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

I agree...next


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

yes. because we all know that nba fans are always right in terms of voting.


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## P-Rez25 (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

LeBron might end up having a better career than Bryant but until he gets some rings i cant say hes better than Kobe Bryant


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

ESPN readers are idiots. i know this because i am one.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

All Tim Duncan does is anchor championship teams. That doesn't count for much in fan voting, though.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> The results are in, and at a staggering rate. Kobe thumps LeBron 73% > 27%.
> 
> The Nation and World has spoken.
> 
> ...


Thoughts?

You must have spent a lot of time voting.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

I dont know how people on here dont recognize that Kobe is clearly the better player. Yes, 'Bron is a physical beast but other than slashing and maybe finihing in transition, there is nothing that he gives u that Kobe doesn't do better. Kobe has all the intangibles you could ask for in a player..... Take off your hater-shades.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Power_Ballin said:


> I dont know how people on here dont recognize that Kobe is clearly the better player. Yes, *'Bron is a physical beast but other than slashing and maybe finihing in transition, there is nothing that he gives u that Kobe doesn't do better*. Kobe has all the intangibles you could ask for in a player..... Take off your hater-shades.


Passing and rebounding?


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

^says the guy with the CP avatar from FL so you know he isnt biased...i mean it


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Power_Ballin said:


> I dont know how people on here dont recognize that Kobe is clearly the better player. Yes, 'Bron is a physical beast but other than slashing and maybe finihing in transition, there is nothing that he gives u that Kobe doesn't do better. Kobe has all the intangibles you could ask for in a player..... Take off your hater-shades.


Yeah, there's never been any problems w/ Kobe's game.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



HB said:


> Passing and rebounding?


Check out the overrated stats thread Rebounding is one of them. LeBron get's half his rebounds standing by the rim. Don't be fooled by stats. Watch the game more in depth. Look at whos really banging in the paint and fighting for rebounds. LeBron just out jumps guys, or stands and grabs missed free throw rebounds half the game. He's not a Rodman by any stretch of the imagination.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SeaNet said:


> All Tim Duncan does is anchor championship teams. That doesn't count for much in fan voting, though.


He wasn't an option on the poll...it was between Kobe/LeBron.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Check out the overrated stats thread Rebounding is one of them. LeBron get's half his rebounds standing by the rim. Don't be fooled by stats. Watch the game more in depth. Look at whos really banging in the paint and fighting for rebounds. LeBron just out jumps guys, or stands and grabs missed free throw rebounds half the game. He's not a Rodman by any stretch of the imagination.


You dont see too many 6'8 players averaging 8 rpg. Regardless of how he gets it, you can't just throw it out the window.


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## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ; said:


> Check out the overrated stats thread Rebounding is one of them. LeBron get's half his rebounds standing by the rim. Don't be fooled by stats. Watch the game more in depth. Look at whos really banging in the paint and fighting for rebounds. LeBron just out jumps guys, or stands and grabs missed free throw rebounds half the game. He's not a Rodman by any stretch of the imagination.


i still think lebron is the better rebounder. he's just bigger and stronger than kobe. but better passer? if anything they're even. both rely a lot on drive and kick, which to me, aren't as impressive as hitting a guy going to the hole for an easy two. you know, the way assists *used* to be counted. lebron is young, and has plenty of time to improve his game. all the tools are there for him to be in the argument for top ten player when he is done. i know youngens hate hearing this, but he's still gotta pay his dues.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



HB said:


> You dont see too many 6'8 players averaging 8 rpg. Regardless of how he gets it, you can't just throw it out the window.


You don't ? Please look up rebounding stats. I'm sure there are plenty of guys who do. I mean Kobe himself is only 6'6" and averages 6 rebounds a game. My main point was that its not really an advantage for Lebron Just because the stat says 8 rebounds per game. More importantly by the time the season is over LeBron will be at 7 boards a game. Especially now that he has good interior big men in Smith, and Wallace to help on the boards. Or logically you would think that right ? Or maybe Bron cares more about getting stats then winning championships. Shrug...time will tell.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

It seems like Lebron is already beyond the point where everyone takes him for granted, he just makes it look too easy. I have no other explanation for it because he has definitely been the best player this season.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Check out the overrated stats thread Rebounding is one of them. *LeBron get's half his rebounds standing by the rim.*


Yup. Most people do. lol



> Don't be fooled by stats. Watch the game more in depth. *Look at whos really banging in the paint and fighting for rebounds.*


Lebron raises his intensity on the boards in the clutch. That answers your question.



> LeBron just out jumps guys, or stands and grabs missed free throw rebounds half the game. He's not a Rodman by any stretch of the imagination.


Wait, he out jumps guys to get rebounds? And this is somehow....bad? You seem to be quite confused.

And you complete this silliness with a complete strawman argument about Dennis Rodman. LOL


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



> You don't ? Please look up rebounding stats. I'm sure there are plenty of guys who do. I mean Kobe himself is only 6'6" and averages 6 rebounds a game. My main point was that its not really an advantage for Lebron Just because the stat says 8 rebounds per game. More importantly by the time the season is over LeBron will be at 7 boards a game. Especially now that he has good interior big men in Smith, and Wallace to help on the boards. Or logically you would think that right ? Or maybe Bron cares more about getting stats then winning championships. Shrug...time will tell.


He does everything to get his team wins, if that means getting over 8 boards a game to keep them competitive then so be it. I am sure he wouldn't mind if his rebounding numbers took a dip as long as the team wins. Don't you agree?


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> You don't ? Please look up rebounding stats. I'm sure there are plenty of guys who do. I mean Kobe himself is only 6'6" and averages 6 rebounds a game. My main point was that its not really an advantage for Lebron Just because the stat says 8 rebounds per game. More importantly by the time the season is over LeBron will be at 7 boards a game. Especially now that he has good interior big men in Smith, and Wallace to help on the boards. Or logically you would think that right ? Or maybe Bron cares more about getting stats then winning championships. Shrug...time will tell.


Lebron's always had good interior big men. They always are at the top of the league in rebounding.

Lebron's a large part of the reason why.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> He wasn't an option on the poll...it was between Kobe/LeBron.


I know.


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## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname; said:


> Lebron's *always had good interior big men*. They always are at the top of the league in rebounding.
> 
> Lebron's a large part of the reason why.


ilgauskus? gooden? varejao? james carried a pretty weak team to the finals. i don't really consider any of these guys as board monsters.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

It's close.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KillWill said:


> i still think lebron is the better rebounder. he's just bigger and stronger than kobe. but better passer? if anything they're even. both rely a lot on drive and kick, which to me, aren't as impressive as hitting a guy going to the hole for an easy two. you know, the way assists *used* to be counted. lebron is young, and has plenty of time to improve his game. all the tools are there for him to be in the argument for top ten player when he is done. i know youngens hate hearing this, but he's still gotta pay his dues.


Honestly? Kobe isn't on Lebron's level when it comes to passing. Lebron's passing skills are what separates him from the rest of the explosive wing scorers in the league. 

And I'm not even talking about assists per game or anything like that. I'm talking about vision. Lebron hasn't had many guys around him who can shoot very well most of his career, and a lot of his passes are ones that only Nash and Kidd could pull off. And frankly, a lot of his snap passes are too fast for either of them to pull off. (Of course, they obviously have a lot of passes in their arsenal that Lebron could likewise not pull off). 

Kobe's no slouch when it comes to passing, but there is no evidence to suggest that they are even in terms of passing ability.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

its funny this topic is being debated everywhere right now in particular when it comes to who should get the MVP, Bryants team is the top team in the west, BUT he never got it when he was the best player in the league these past couple years (he led the league in scoring) cuz of his teams record and them not being among the elite, now that they are, WHY SHOULDNT HE GET IT ? and why should Lebron ? just cuz everyone is on his nuts?
his team is 8 games over 500 and not even the 3rd best team in the East, no one 8 games over 500 in the EAST should get ****


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KillWill said:


> ilgauskus? gooden? varejao? james carried a pretty weak team to the finals. i don't really consider any of these guys as board monsters.


Yeah, they're all good rebounders. 

Lebron carried the team offensively, but we wouldn't have gotten the team to the finals without the rebounding of our big men (and Lebron I guess, but I fail to see how it could be a knock against him).


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



ElMarroAfamado said:


> its funny this topic is being debated everywhere right now in particular when it comes to who should get the MVP, Bryants team is the top team in the west, BUT he never got it when he was the best player in the league these past couple years (he led the league in scoring) cuz of his teams record and them not being among the elite, now that they are, WHY SHOULDNT HE GET IT ? and why should Lebron ? just cuz everyone is on his nuts?
> his team is 8 games over 500 and not even the 3rd best team in the East, no one 8 games over 500 in the EAST shouldnt get ****


Kobe had a legitimate argument two years ago, when he got 45 wins. But even then, Lebron had just as good of a season individually with 50 wins. Either would have been appropriate for MVP, but of course neither of them got it.

Kobe should be the favorite for MVP right now. Lebron's been the better player this year, but you can't argue with #1 in the West alongside Kobe's excellent season himself. Especially based on the way that MVP voting goes, it's hard to make an argument against Bryant for the award.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SeaNet said:


> Yeah, there's never been any problems w/ Kobe's game.


there will be alot of people who will state that kobe has now figured out how to play unselfishly and that's the reason the lakers are now good - because kobe has learned! he used to be totally overrated because he was a selfish statpadder, and now he's figured out how to win! so those who said kobe would never win without shaq can say they were right - the old kobe would never win! but now he changed! he finally listened to them! and now he can rely on his teammates. 

not that they've won anything yet, but it seems pretty clear that they can be a pretty good team with kobe as the #1 option! who'd of thunk it? 

fact is, both guys are awesome, complete players. they play different roles within their teams at the moment, but they both have tremendous impact on their teams success. both beyond their stats because of how much teams have to focus on them.


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## Mr.Prince (Jun 7, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



ElMarroAfamado said:


> its funny this topic is being debated everywhere right now in particular when it comes to who should get the MVP, Bryants team is the top team in the west, BUT he never got it when he was the best player in the league these past couple years (he led the league in scoring) cuz of his teams record and them not being among the elite, now that they are, WHY SHOULDNT HE GET IT ? and why should Lebron ? just cuz everyone is on his nuts?
> his team is 8 games over 500 and not even the 3rd best team in the East, no one 8 games over 500 in the EAST should get ****



GREAT post, so so true. Repped.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Power_Ballin said:


> I dont know how people on here dont recognize that Kobe is clearly the better player. Yes, 'Bron is a physical beast but other than slashing and maybe finihing in transition, there is nothing that he gives u that Kobe doesn't do better. Kobe has all the intangibles you could ask for in a player..... Take off your hater-shades.


Passing, rebounding, equal defense.

Lets see kobe take his team out of the first round without a prime shaq .


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Yup. Most people do. lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


btw 

BRANDNAME - 1
AJ23 - 0 

LMAO OWNED!


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

There's actually very little in which Kobe is superior.He's not a better defender,he's not a better passer nor is he a better rebounder.That only leaves scoring and Kobe isn't scoring more,nor is he scoring much more efficiently despite playing with a much better offensive team.That doesn't leave much.If Kobe isn't a substantially better scorer then this is no contest.

At any rate Timmy is still the best player in the league exactly like he has been since he overtook Shaq five years ago.He's been the best defensive player over the course of his career and he's led four separate teams to titles.He still has a better PER than Kobe even though he's never been about numbers and everyone claims he's having a down year.The Spurs have the best record in the West despite having all sorts of injuries and all the naysayers predicting their demise.All without a lick of help from Chris Wallace


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SamTheMan67 said:


> Lets see kobe take his team out of the first round without a prime shaq .



Kobe took a team in the WEST to the playoffs two years in a row with a starting lineup including Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, and Luke Walton. Get off his nuts


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SamTheMan67 said:


> Passing, rebounding, equal defense.
> 
> Lets see kobe take his team out of the first round without a prime shaq .


and what happens if he does? i mean, you acknowledge its a pretty real possibility this year, no?


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> Kobe took a team in the WEST to the playoffs two years in a row with a starting lineup including Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, and Luke Walton. Get off his nuts


DaRizzle ftw.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



kflo said:


> and what happens if he does? i mean, you acknowledge its a pretty real possibility this year, no?


I mean obv , but if they get a tough matchup like GSW and lose in the first round then what are Kobe supporters going to say? honestly what arguement would you have.. kobe has no help?? Please LeBron took a bunch of scrubs and roleplayers to the NBA finals. Kobe choked away a 3-1 lead to phoenix..


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> Kobe took a team in the WEST to the playoffs two years in a row with a starting lineup including Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, and Luke Walton. Get off his nuts


And Lebron took a backcourt of Hughes, Pavlovic, and Snow to the finals


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Lebron has been having the best individual season out of all players, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is the best player in the league. Teammates, injuries and other factors play a part regarding individual production. I still think Duncan and Kobe are the top two players in the NBA right now.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SamTheMan67 said:


> And Lebron took a backcourt of Hughes, Pavlovic, and Snow to the finals


In the jv league... I dare you to theorize how that team would have held up in the west. Furthermore Hughes, while hated, can do some thing on the bball court and Zeke is not a pushover in these times of not many dominant big men


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> In the jv league... I dare you to theorize how that team would have held up in the west. Furthermore Hughes, while hated, can do some thing on the bball court and Zeke is not a pushover in these times of not many dominant big men


Who the hell is zeke first off? Second off Hughes had some lame heel injury and played minimal minutes past the ec semi's. is it Lebrons fault he is in the east? He still beat the "best" team in the east and the team that beat your lakers dream team 3 year prior with the goldenboys last trip out of the first round.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

the lakers are #3 offensively this year, and #6 defensively. they've been top 8 offensively the last 3 years. this year, defensively they're finally competitive again (and holding steady without bynum). kobe's the centerpiece. he controls the tempo of the offense, the flow of the offense, dictates everything, but not by controlling the basketball at all times. but the offense, and the defense played against them, is predicated on kobe. it's really been a testament to him that they play efficiently, this year extremely efficiently. lebron is easily a better instinctive passer, sees the court better, makes snappier passes. but kobe has a feel for the lakers offense, for operating within that offense. he had it on the title teams, and he has it now. there's more to offense than making direct passes that lead to a shot, and scoring. 

i have no problem with giving either guy an edge - but this goes deeper than just looking at a statsheet, or even a breakout of who does what better separately.

forgot who made the early/late jordan analogy, but there's alot of truth to that, even if it's not spot on on all aspects. they play different roles within different offenses, both arguably the better for their respective teams.


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Wow, this debate has not been overdone... 

It gets to the point when I'm beginning to not be interested in LBJ and what he's doing due to the fact of your diminishing and downplaying of what Kobe has done to make your boy look better (talk about an insecure fanbase ha?. And I was in love (no ****) with the guy when he was still in high school. But despite what I've said, I try to watch Cavs games; I don't want greatness passing me by when I'm not watching. 

By the way, since you're bringing supporting casts up. I will not feel sorry for LeBron's supporting cast. Not since I had a pleasure of seeing a starting line up of Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook/Chris Mihm and Lamar Odom as the second option somehow finishing 10th in the league (45-37) with a bunch of scrubs and soon-to-be-retired players coming off the bench. I just won't. 

I also like the fact how all of a sudden they are equal on defense. Really, is there anything "King" James can't do? 

I seriously think we could lump all the comparisons in one thread considering how many of these we've had.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SamTheMan67 said:


> Who the hell is zeke first off? Second off Hughes had some lame heel injury and played minimal minutes past the ec semi's. is it Lebrons fault he is in the east? He still beat the "best" team in the east and the team that beat your lakers dream team 3 year prior with the goldenboys last trip out of the first round.


Apparently the best team in the East wasn't quite as good as you imply after what San Antonio did to the Cavs.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

In the head to head matchup, although a small sampling size the cavs have won the last 5 meetings head up. LeBron shut kobe down in the 4th quarter theres no arguing if you watched the game, and hit a kobe-esque jumper to seal the game. He has consistantly shut down the opponents best offensive player this year.. whether it be kevin martin, or michael redd.. etc


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Bartholomew Hunt said:


> Apparently the best team in the East wasn't quite as good as you imply after what San Antonio did to the Cavs.


The cavs were still an overachieving team, and LeBron struggled with his jumper at the wrong time.. who knows what would have happened if he had still been hot with his jumper..

doesnt diminish how they got to the finals.. still pointing out kobe has not been past the first round without prime shaq.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Lebron is a much improved player from last year, on both ends.


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Okay, he shut Kobe down in the 4th. That proves that their defense is equal. Good point. In fact, let's start a petition to re-nickname him to LeBron "The Kobe Stopper" James. God knows he hasn't achieved anything worthy of his current nickname, yet.

(I am kidding, of course, before someone jumps all over me)


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

This debate will continue for years to come...and it's already getting really old, really quick...

Both great players. Leave it at that. Whoever wins MVP, kudos to them. If either one wins the NBA Championship, they're not going to care about the MVP award or who others consider the best player. You don't play to be considered the best by the ****ing media.

You play to win the game!


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Plastic Man said:


> Okay, he shut Kobe down in the 4th. That proves that their defense is equal. Good point. In fact, let's start a petition to re-nickname him to LeBron "The Kobe Stopper" James. God knows he hasn't achieved anything worthy of his current nickname, yet.
> 
> (I am kidding, of course, before someone jumps all over me)


Reread my post.. i said albeit small sampling size, and didn't just use that example.. watch some cavs games this year against some of the better players in the league and their 4th quarter stats vs lebron defending them


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

I really do hope for a lakers vs. cavs finals just so the battle will be put to rest


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SamTheMan67 said:


> I really do hope for a lakers vs. cavs finals just so the battle will be put to rest


I guarantee you that even if they did play in the Finals, it still wouldn't be put to rest. Because the way both teams are set up, they have a chance to meet in the Finals on more than occasion.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Lol that would be funny if they faced like 3 straight times in the finals. Oh well cheers to them even getting their first


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> This debate will continue for years to come...and it's already getting really old, really quick...
> 
> Both great players. Leave it at that. Whoever wins MVP, kudos to them. If either one wins the NBA Championship, they're not going to care about the MVP award or who others consider the best player. You don't play to be considered the best by the ****ing media.
> 
> You play to win the game!


Exactly. This is the best way to put the debate to rest.

@SamTheMan67: Come on, man, I was kidding . I've watched more games recently and I have no problem to admit that LeBron has vastly improved his defense (and his "clutchness" too for that matter) and I'd probably see nothing wrong with him getting 2nd All-D team. However, I wouldn't quite call them "equal" on defense just yet. But, to each his own I guess.

At least this year we have 3, 4 or maybe even 5 MVP-worthy candidates... opposed to previous years.

peace


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Plastic Man said:


> Exactly. This is the best way to put the debate to rest.
> 
> @SamTheMan67: Come on, man, I was kidding . I've watched more games recently and I have no problem to admit that LeBron has vastly improved his defense (and his "clutchness" too for that matter) and I'd probably see nothing wrong with him getting 2nd All-D team. However, I wouldn't quite call them "equal" on defense just yet. But, to each his own I guess.
> 
> ...



I just watched kobe when he had shaq and how elite of a defender he was, then the years following where he wasn't a crappy defender but he just couldn't exert enough to be the defender of old. The year where he scored 35ppg he was terribly overrated on defense. This year its picking up again, but its all about your rep and if the media praised lebron for being an amazing defender everyone would begin to watch and notice


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

No reason to put either guy down. They're both separating themselves from the rest of the NBA more and more, especially this year.

As always of course, it's hard to stack their abilities as wing players up against the likes of a Tim Duncan or Chris Paul, so I dunno, they deserve to be in the conversation as well. 

Regardless, each of the two players has advantages over the other in certain areas. For one thing, it's not really arguable that Kobe is a better shooter. Lebron is a better rebounder and (up until this thread I believed it was consensus) a better passer. 

They're very close to being equal in many aspects, as well. Scoring (overall), defense (this is probably the first year they can be legitimately compared defensively, and they've both really stepped it up here this year), and late game heroics (I understand Kobe has an extra 8 years or so of history here, I'm referring to their current abilities only). Leadership is almost entirely subjective and who really knows the answer to that one. 

But ultimately *23AJ*, in working so hard to bring Lebron down, you're truly overlooking the fact that we're witnessing two players who will go down as all-time greats in the NBA playing at or near their prime (of course Lebron has a little ways to go before his prime, but he's playing at a high level nonetheless). They both have a chance at becoming top 10-15 players of all time or so, and at some point we're going to reminisce about the days we got to see them compete against each other.

I'd even venture to say that even you, *23AJ*, might one day fondly think back to being able to watch these guys play at the same time.


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SamTheMan67 said:


> I just watched kobe when he had shaq and how elite of a defender he was, then the years following where he wasn't a crappy defender but he just couldn't exert enough to be the defender of old. The year where he scored 35ppg he was terribly overrated on defense. This year its picking up again, but its all about your rep and if the media praised lebron for being an amazing defender everyone would begin to watch and notice


This is such a garbage post...How about you look at all the facets Kobe had to fill post Shaq. NOBODY could score on that team. He had to fill up the bucket those years for the Lakers to come close to sniffing a win, its obvious he chose to take it down a notch on D or he would have had a heart attack on the floor. Now that he can RELY on teammates he is back to being amazing on D. Bring me more Kobe hate! BRING IT!!!


----------



## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> This is such a garbage post...How about you look at all the facets Kobe had to fill post Shaq. NOBODY could score on that team. He had to fill up the bucket those years for the Lakers to come close to sniffing a win, its obvious he chose to take it down a notch on D or he would have had a heart attack on the floor. Now that he can RELY on teammates he is back to being amazing on D. Bring me more Kobe hate! BRING IT!!!


Are you drunk? I stated that I can understand the reason Kobe's "elite" level defense dropped was because of his tremendous offensive output, but those years he was still considered elite , but only based on his rep. Chill out


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



> ESPN readers are idiots. i know this because i am one.


*Yahoo MVP poll has Kobe winning...more 110,000 votes in *

Kobe - 59% 
Lebron - 30% 
Other - 11% 


Last time I checked.



*CNNSI.com also has Kobe over Lebron with similar percentage 69% infavor of Kobe 21% for LBJ.*

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/david_dupree/03/04/kobe.lebron/index.html?eref=T1



*Even well known relentless hater Tim Legeler picked Kobe*


http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3275806&categoryId=2459788&n8pe6c=2


*Bill Walton,Plaschke,Marty Burns to name a few who have dogged Kobe in the past have all picked him this year over Lebron.*



People needs to stop looking at numbers alone. Watch the games and see how Kobe has totally sacrificed his game for team success. Kobe could easily drop another 30ppg this year and aim for his third consecutive scoring title. But its all clear that he wants _what matters the most_.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> This debate will continue for years to come...and it's already getting really old, really quick...
> 
> Both great players. Leave it at that. Whoever wins MVP, kudos to them. If either one wins the NBA Championship, they're not going to care about the MVP award or who others consider the best player. You don't play to be considered the best by the ****ing media.
> 
> You play to win the game!


Good post. Bron and Kobe are 1a and 1b as far as I am concerned


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KDOS said:


> People needs to stop looking at numbers alone. Watch the games and see how Kobe has totally sacrificed his game for team success.


It's a bit naive to think that those of us who think Lebron is the better player don't watch the games. In fact, I've had the pleasure of watching both of them play dozens of games this year.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KDOS said:


> *Yahoo MVP poll has Kobe winning...more 110,000 votes in *
> 
> Kobe - 59%
> Lebron - 30%
> ...


Legler picked Kobe as the guy he'd choose for ONE game. But Legler last night also stated that LeBron is the MVP this season. Just thought I'd point that out.


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SamTheMan67 said:


> Are you drunk? I stated that I can understand the reason Kobe's "elite" level defense dropped was because of his tremendous offensive output, but those years he was still considered elite , but only based on his rep. Chill out


Please quote yourself where you stated where you understood why Kobe's D dropped off. If you said it then it was only to yourself


----------



## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

I personally have seen every game this year. bn


----------



## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SamTheMan67 said:


> I just watched kobe when he had shaq and how elite of a defender he was, then the years following where he wasn't a crappy defender but he just *couldn't exert enough to be the defender of old.* The year where he scored 35ppg he was terribly overrated on defense. *This year its picking up again*, but its all about your rep and if the media praised lebron for being an amazing defender everyone would begin to watch and notice


@ Darizzle


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

I took your use of the word "couldn't" as he physically could not be that good anymore on defense because of diminishing skill/age...use "chose not to" next time:biggrin:


----------



## jman23 (Aug 13, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Kobe,he's The Greatest


----------



## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> I took your use of the word "couldn't" as he physically could not be that good anymore on defense because of diminishing skill/age...use "chose not to" next time:biggrin:


Well Darizzle in the English language sometimes we use conjunctions. Now couldn't bridges out to could not, and if you had reread that you would perceive the notion i was trying to convey. Kobe has a maximum energy output and he could not output the same amount on defense because of his effort of putting up a million shots on offense.


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> Legler picked Kobe as the guy he'd choose for ONE game. But Legler last night also stated that LeBron is the MVP this season. Just thought I'd point that out.


Ok. So whats your point? The question was asked to establish a consensus and persuasive answer on the never ending debate about whose better _right now_.



And I never said or implied that Legler picked Kobe for MVP. Just want to point that out as well...


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

to samtheman67

^well, it wasn't obvious what you were trying to say and could have worded it much better, so thanks for the lame sarcasm.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KDOS said:


> Ok. So whats your point? The question was asked to establish a consensus and persuasive answer on the never ending debate about whose better _right now_.
> 
> 
> 
> And I never said or implied that Legler picked Kobe for MVP. Just want to point that out as well...


I wasn't trying to make a point; just making mention of it.


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> It's a bit naive to think that those of us who think Lebron is the better player don't watch the games. In fact, I've had the pleasure of watching both of them play dozens of games this year.


There's a difference between those who watch a game and those who really watches games. And Im not about to put you in either group, categorically speaking. You know who you are.


----------



## The Solution (Jan 2, 2008)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

before I start let me say this "There is no one in the NBA that can fill up the stat sheet like Lebron James, he is the most unstoppable player in the league today when driving to the basket."


That being said...

Cons
Lebron is horrible at the free throw line.
Lebron doesn't have a consistant jumpshot.
Lebron in the clutch relies heavily on his athleticism to drive to the basket. Because like I said before when he drives to the basket NO ONE can stop him.

Pros
Lebron is a freak of nature first an foremost. Standing at 6'8 weighing in at 250 lbs, no one can really stop him (not even Kobe's defense for long)
Lebron is becoming more of a clutch player, usually in the fourth quarter he'll drive to the basket for either a foul call or an easy game winning shot.
Lebron is an amazing passer for his size.
Lebron is a rebounding machine when he wants to be.


before I start let me say this, "Kobe Bryant has finally become the leader that MJ was when he won his championships."

Cons
Kobe with the game on the line tends to take a hard fade away shot instead of something easier.


Pros
Kobe is the best offensive player in this league
Kobe is a great passer for his size
Kobe is a great defensive player for his position
Kobe knows now when to take the game into his own hands
Kobe has 3 championship rings, has been to the dance on more than one occasion.

Come on people its not to hard to understand that Kobe Bryant is the better player.


----------



## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



The Solution said:


> before I start let me say this "There is no one in the NBA that can fill up the stat sheet like Lebron James, he is the most unstoppable player in the league today when driving to the basket."
> 
> 
> That being said...
> ...


Damn glad we got that figured out. Did you use the scientific method to come up with that?


----------



## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> to samtheman67
> 
> ^well, it wasn't obvious what you were trying to say and could have worded it much better, so thanks for the lame sarcasm.


If it was obvious why would you get angry and call it a garbage post and not understand it ... oh well , Lol.


----------



## The Solution (Jan 2, 2008)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SamTheMan67 said:


> Damn glad we got that figured out. Did you use the scientific method to come up with that?


Hey man, I was helping out anyone who thought that Lebron James is better than Kobe Bryant.


----------



## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



The Solution said:


> Hey man, I was helping out anyone who thought that Lebron James is better than Kobe Bryant.


Thanks man, let me forward this post to ESPN Human resources, maybe they have a spot for you next to Skip Bayless


----------



## The Solution (Jan 2, 2008)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SamTheMan67 said:


> Thanks man, let me forward this post to ESPN Human resources, maybe they have a spot for you next to Skip Bayless



Hey I like Skip, he's entertaining every once in a while.


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SamTheMan67 said:


> Thanks man, let me forward this post to ESPN Human resources, maybe they have a spot for you next to Skip Bayless


Which one are you?
http://www.thephatphree.com/features.asp?StoryId=4104&SectionID=15&spage=2


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Interesting to contrast these results of the casual sports fan, versus the views of the average BBF poster, who has voted Lebron as the best player in the NBA as in the last top 25 player poll that has been done. I think Lebron has won it the last two times we've done the poll. And this is people who really watch the game closely, and discuss it constantly with others. Whereas the ESPN poll is well...the ESPN demographic(have you read their message boards lol).


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

I'd also say that what is lost in this whole Lebron vs. Kobe kerbabble is that neither one is clearly better than the other, and with both possibilities for the Finals, we could be seeing a truly special rivalry develop. Jordan after 91 never really had a perimeter player to duel with. With Lebron, Kobe has all he can handle. And if DWade gets healthy again, he'll be right in this conversation too. We really are in a special time for the NBA. The level of talent in the league is probably at it's highest point in 20 years. The amount of great players we have all playing at a prime level is astounding. The glory days are really back.


----------



## The Solution (Jan 2, 2008)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> I'd also say that what is lost in this whole Lebron vs. Kobe kerbabble is that neither one is clearly better than the other, and with both possibilities for the Finals, we could be seeing a truly special rivalry develop. Jordan after 91 never really had a perimeter player to duel with. With Lebron, Kobe has all he can handle. And if DWade gets healthy again, he'll be right in this conversation too. We really are in a special time for the NBA. The level of talent in the league is probably at it's highest point in 20 years. The amount of great players we have all playing at a prime level is astounding. The glory days are really back.



I don't think DWade will ever be able to get back to that form, he just looks slow, and almost lazy. One thing is for sure he needs to stop doing those commericals. Look at Lebron he stopped (I loved them by the way) and he had this season.


Also the glory days are back but in a different way, cause we don't have a lot of amazing centers.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



The Solution said:


> I don't think DWade will ever be able to get back to that form, he just looks slow, and almost lazy. One thing is for sure he needs to stop doing those commericals. Look at Lebron he stopped (I loved them by the way) and he had this season.
> 
> 
> Also the glory days are back but in a different way, cause we don't have a lot of amazing centers.


Wade is also nowhere near 100%.


----------



## The Solution (Jan 2, 2008)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> Wade is also nowhere near 100%.


Shouldn't he be near 100% by now? its almost been a full season now.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



The Solution said:


> Shouldn't he be near 100% by now? its almost been a full season now.


Whether he should or shouldn't be doesn't matter. He's not.


----------



## The Solution (Jan 2, 2008)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> Whether he should or shouldn't be doesn't matter. He's not.


It could be that the injury is far worse what we all thought, or he's become lazy. Riding that Finals MVP, he can just keep doing commercials with Chuck, don't know why Dwade is on Chuck's fav five now though.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



The Solution said:


> Shouldn't he be near 100% by now? its almost been a full season now.


Remember how long it took Amare to get over his knee injury.


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

As far as im concerned, this year has been an absolute manifestation of Kobe's growth and leadership. His scoring numbers has dipped, sure, but its palpable for a good cause. I have always express concern about Kobe's shot selection and decision making in the past, but his development in that aspect of the game this year has magnified and inspiring to a point where it created a ripple effect among his teammates and made them much better.



Lebron may be the best player statistically, but if we have to consider how much Kobe's intangible impact has evolved, its easier to see why Kobe and the Lakers are winning a ridiculous amount of games in a very tough conference.


----------



## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> Which one are you?
> http://www.thephatphree.com/features.asp?StoryId=4104&SectionID=15&spage=2


Nice link! :rofl2:


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Oh, goodie... Another The New One vs The Great One debate... How refreshing!

My thoughts about this are:
1- I thought Kobe jockers were annoying. But boy, how Lebron jockers are stampeding all over this Forum!
2- They are preety much at the same level. I give the nod to Kobe, still. That could change in the near future (like, this years' playoffs);
3- The playoffs are all that matters. Duncan is the living proof of that saying. This year both players have the chance and the roster to make some serious damage. there are no excuses left for either of them (even if Bynum doesn't come in in game shape);
4- Some people remember Lebron leading the Cavs to the Finals as a great accomplishment. My recollection is about him completely embarassing himself at the Great Stage. And needing a guy nicknamed Boobie to get him there. Maybe this year it will be different...

5- After the playoffs have ended, some light will be put in this discussion...


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Interesting to contrast these results of the casual sports fan, versus the views of the average BBF poster, who has voted Lebron as the best player in the NBA as in the last top 25 player poll that has been done. I think Lebron has won it the last two times we've done the poll. And this is people who really watch the game closely, and discuss it constantly with others. Whereas the ESPN poll is well...the ESPN demographic(have you read their message boards lol).


Hilarity ensues.




No offense to this board and its posters but what makes a small fraction of posters in this board (compared to thousands of fans worldwide) as the the designated messenger of universal truth in the universe?


Wow. This is getting ridiculous, lol.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KDOS said:


> There's a difference between those who watch a game and those who really watches games. And Im not about to put you in either group, categorically speaking. You know who you are.


Yeah, I know which one I am.

But you seem to be implying that those who 'really watch the game' are going to pick Kobe, as if you're not a true basketball fan unless you understand that Kobe's the best. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's not what you mean. 

It is interesting as futuristxen said to compare the results of the casual fan poll on ESPN vs. the basketballforum poll. It does seem to indicate that Kobe has a lot of casual fans compared to a lot of other NBA players. Maybe it's the market he plays in, maybe it's that he's been so good for so long. But the poll results are very different from what you get when you poll people who discuss basketball on a daily basis, when the results are much closer.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KDOS said:


> Hilarity ensues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is no universal truth when it comes to these things, just a bunch of opinions. They're pretty close, there's really no doubt about that.

The results are very different though, and it's interesting to see how the votes are split.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Yeah, I know which one I am.
> 
> But you seem to be implying that those who 'really watch the game' are going to pick Kobe, as if you're not a true basketball fan unless you understand that Kobe's the best. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's not what you mean.
> 
> It is interesting as futuristxen said to compare the results of the casual fan poll on ESPN vs. the basketballforum poll. It does seem to indicate that Kobe has a lot of casual fans compared to a lot of other NBA players. Maybe it's the market he plays in, maybe it's that he's been so good for so long. But the poll results are very different from what you get when you poll people who discuss basketball on a daily basis, when the results are much closer.


Brandname: a couple of days after Kobe pulled of the 81 point game, there was a thread in this Board about the best player in the NBA. Kobe got like 95% of the votes.

We are the same as ESPN.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



PauloCatarino said:


> Oh, goodie... Another The New One vs The Great One debate... How refreshing!
> 
> My thoughts about this are:
> 1- I thought Kobe jockers were annoying. But boy, how Lebron jockers are stampeding all over this Forum!
> ...


You make a lot of good points, but frankly #4 is a bit silly. Any player who gets to the NBA finals is going to need at least one teammate to step up sooner or later. Saying 'Lebron needed a guy nicknamed Boobie to get him there' sounds like some kind of knock against him, which I wouldn't understand.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Yeah, I know which one I am.
> 
> But you seem to be implying that those who 'really watch the game' are going to pick Kobe, as if you're not a true basketball fan unless you understand that Kobe's the best. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's not what you mean.
> 
> It is interesting as futuristxen said to compare the results of the casual fan poll on ESPN vs. the basketballforum poll. It does seem to indicate that Kobe has a lot of casual fans compared to a lot of other NBA players. Maybe it's the market he plays in, maybe it's that he's been so good for so long. But the poll results are very different from what you get when you poll people who discuss basketball on a daily basis, when the results are much closer.


Who's to say that the voters on ESPN don't discuss basketball on a daily basis, though? Just because they don't all post on this website, it doesn't mean they don't discuss basketball on a daily basis. 

Anyway, this debate is just becoming so tiresome now. Nobody's going to change their mind on who the best player really is, unless maybe one of them wins a championship. And even then, most people won't change their minds.


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SamTheMan67; said:


> Damn glad we got that figured out. Did you use the scientific method to come up with that?


edit - no need for that

your sarcasm has convinced us all.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



PauloCatarino said:


> Brandname: a couple of days after Kobe pulled of the 81 point game, there was a thread in this Board about the best player in the NBA. Kobe got like 95% of the votes.
> 
> We are the same as ESPN.


Yeah, you are right. We're just as impressionable as anyone else. But at least the poll in question wasn't taken after any kind of big performance by either.

But you're right, we're all kind of the same way.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> *Who's to say that the voters on ESPN don't discuss basketball on a daily basis, though? Just because they don't all post on this website, it doesn't mean they don't discuss basketball on a daily basis.
> *
> Anyway, this debate is just becoming so tiresome now. Nobody's going to change their mind on who the best player really is, unless maybe one of them wins a championship. And even then, most people won't change their minds.


Maybe they do, but if their discussions are anything like the actual ESPN message boards, I would definitely lend more credibility to a place like this. 

And I don't think it's so much that they're ignorant or something like that, but rather they just took the poll after a big game by Kobe. Like Paulo pointed out, the same thing would happen here. Bad timing on their part, I think. Maybe intentional, who knows.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Maybe they do, but if their discussions are anything like the actual ESPN message boards, I would definitely lend more credibility to a place like this.
> 
> And I don't think it's so much that they're ignorant or something like that, but rather they just took the poll after a big game by Kobe. Like Paulo pointed out, the same thing would happen here. Bad timing on their part, I think. Maybe intentional, who knows.


The thing is, though, that they made sure to do it when LeBron had a big game as well. Sure, he didn't hit 52 points and he didn't do it against a team like Dallas, but he still had a big game.

I think the only reason anyone is even discussing this at length right now is because both teams did it on ABC in the national spotlight.

If both LeBron and Kobe had the same games on Sunday, but not on National TV, I don't know that ESPN would even be giving them all of this coverage.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> You make a lot of good points, but frankly #4 is a bit silly. Any player who gets to the NBA finals is going to need at least one teammate to step up sooner or later. Saying 'Lebron needed a guy nicknamed Boobie to get him there' *sounds like some kind of knock against him*, which I wouldn't understand.


A better knock against him would be saying something like the refs gave him (and the Cavs) a playoff game against Washington because they refused to call a travelling (is that the name) on James' winning basket. That was a complete fabrication and brought back memories of players who were so marketed by the league that they could go on with impunity (like, i don't know... the MJ/Russell incident).

The fact that the Cavs got swept by the Spurs and that Lebron played awfully in that series only showed me that the East was weak as hell and that Lebron failed. It was NOT the same as the Bulls being swept by the Celtics while Jordan was playing out of his mind...


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57; said:


> The thing is, though, that they made sure to do it when LeBron had a big game as well. Sure, he didn't hit 52 points and he didn't do it against a team like Dallas, but he still had a big game.
> 
> I think the only reason anyone is even discussing this at length right now is because both teams did it on ABC in the national spotlight.
> 
> If both LeBron and Kobe had the same games on Sunday, but not on National TV, I don't know that ESPN would even be giving them all of this coverage.


bingo! it's all about marketing and merchandising, and we're all buying in.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> The thing is, though, that they made sure to do it when LeBron had a big game as well. Sure, he didn't hit 52 points and he didn't do it against a team like Dallas, but he still had a big game.
> 
> I think the only reason anyone is even discussing this at length right now is because both teams did it on ABC in the national spotlight.
> 
> If both LeBron and Kobe had the same games on Sunday, but not on National TV, I don't know that ESPN would even be giving them all of this coverage.


Lebron didn't have a big game the other day. He had a pretty average game.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



PauloCatarino said:


> A better knock against him would be saying something like the refs gave him (and the Cavs) a playoff game against Washington because they refused to call a travelling (is that the name) on James' winning basket. That was a complete fabrication and brought back memories of players who were so marketed by the league that they could go on with impunity (like, i don't know... the MJ/Russell incident).
> 
> The fact that the Cavs got swept by the Spurs and that Lebron played awfully in that series only showed me that the East was weak as hell and that Lebron failed. It was NOT the same as the Bulls being swept by the Celtics while Jordan was playing out of his mind...


Why aren't you up in arms about the missed goaltending violation by Haywood shortly before that?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> Who's to say that the voters on ESPN don't discuss basketball on a daily basis, though? Just because they don't all post on this website, it doesn't mean they don't discuss basketball on a daily basis.


The average ESPN poll voter is probably something of a neanderthal. Given the type of sports "journalism" that network promotes these days.

Plus their message boards will actually make you dumber if you read them.


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

screamin' a. smith's take: http://query-origin.andohs.net/8000...ia.com/origin/mp3/espnradio/sas/sas080303.mp3


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> There is no universal truth when it comes to these things, just a bunch of opinions. They're pretty close, there's really no doubt about that.
> 
> The results are very different though, and it's interesting to see how the votes are split.



Nope. There is no universal truth when analyzing 1a and 1b, but repetitve remarks and statements from not just fans but GM's and players around the league affirming Kobe's status should at least give anyone an indication that he has a slight edge over Lebron.



People griped about Kobe's leadership,shot selection and his insistance to shoot rather than pass, but Kobe has made a major improvement on all three categories.



So really, what else do they want from him to completely seal the best player status?


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Why aren't you up in arms about the missed goaltending violation by Haywood shortly before that?


LOL.

so it made it OK?

Lol


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Lebron didn't have a big game the other day. He had a pretty average game.


37,6,6 is still considered a big game, and he did it on 15/29 shooting. That, and the fact that he started to take over in the 4th quarter when Chicago had the lead.


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KillWill; said:


> screamin' a. smith's take: http://query-origin.andohs.net/8000A6/content-root3.andomedia.com/origin/mp3/espnradio/sas/sas.mp3





> - Kobe Bryant is MVP
> - Stop talking about Chris Paul, waste of time, although loves his game. best pg in the league.
> - Lebron love his game too. is a stud.
> - During NBA Shootaround. Question was posed: if it was crunch time Kobe Bryant or Lebron james? whose hands?
> ...


also says:


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KDOS said:


> Nope. There is no universal truth when analyzing 1a and 1b, but repetitve remarks and statements from not just fans but GM's and players around the league affirming Kobe's status should at least give anyone an indication that he has a slight edge over Lebron.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not a question of whether Kobe improved. It's a question of whether he's better than Lebron. 

And like I've said before, part of what influences players' opinions (as well as GMs and whatnot) is the honoring of establishment. Naturally they're going to lean towards taking the veteran just as a part of respecting the establishment, all else being equal. 

Kobe has improved a lot of the areas of his game, but that doesn't necessarily make him the best. Lebron's having a historic season this year that's somewhat flown under the radar a little bit.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



PauloCatarino said:


> LOL.
> 
> so it made it OK?
> 
> Lol


No, it didn't make it ok at all. My point was that calls were missed down the stretch of a lot of those games, on both sides. Nobody was 'gifted' any game. He still had to hit a difficult shot because he was getting fouled after he traveled.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> 37,6,6 is still considered a big game, and he did it on 15/29 shooting. That, and the fact that he started to take over in the 4th quarter when Chicago had the lead.


That's pretty average for him.


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



> Who's to say that the voters on ESPN don't discuss basketball on a daily basis, though? Just because they don't all post on this website, it doesn't mean they don't discuss basketball on a daily basis. .



Its funny for some people in this board to discredit ESPN polls and correlate casual voters with ESPN message board members.


FYI: You dont necessarily have to become a member to express your opinion via voting. Its safe to say that at least 90% of BBB posters may have even voted there as well. Its not an intricate process, you just click and view the results afterwards.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> That's pretty average for him.


That's fine, but it's still a big game.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KDOS said:


> Its funny for some people in this board to discredit ESPN polls and correlate casual voters with ESPN message board members.
> 
> 
> FYI: You dont necessarily have to become a member to express your opinion via voting. Its safe to say that at least 90% of BBB posters may have even voted there as well. Its not an intricate process, you just click and view the results afterwards.


Thank you for that. And if you're worried about ESPN's polls, go look at the other polls on other websites.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

This is unfair to Kobe. He's the most complete player in the game, and Lebron has a lot to work on before he compares on either side of the ball. His offensive game is too limited at this point, and until Lebron becomes a better overrall shooter and doesn't just rely on his size to do the job, they're not going to compare player to player.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Kobe has the advantage on defense and as a scorer. LeBron has the advantage as an all-around player. Neither player is bad at anything though. Kobe is a good passer and rebounder for his position, and LeBron is a good scorer and defender for his position. Just depends what you value.


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> It's not a question of whether Kobe improved. It's a question of whether he's better than Lebron.


Well lets play the improvement game then. Ive yet to see Lebron hit 80% at the line. His jumpshot and overall perimeter is still suspect.



Hard to qualify him being better than Kobe when Bryant made a dramatic improvement on his weakness while Lebron is still stuck in his.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Sorry Brandname but I have to vote for Kobe on this one. I don't even like Kobe but he's a damn good player. So is Lebron but he's still very young. A few more years of what he's been doing though and i'll vote for Lebron.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

I don't have a problem with people who vote for Kobe at all. Kobe received a lot of votes when we took this poll a couple of weeks ago, it's silly to think that's he's not going to get a lot of votes now.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> No, it didn't make it ok at all. My point was that calls were missed down the stretch of a lot of those games, on both sides. Nobody was 'gifted' any game. He still had to hit a difficult shot because he was getting fouled after he traveled.


Sure he was.

Look, Brandname, i have been spoonfed mr. Lebron James for years now by the media and it just won't fly. Maybe you are more impressionable (sp?) than i am, so you can see though all the BS that's been made about this player...

First, it was the "he's so young" excuses...
Now, he is 23 years of old. No championships. No MVPs.
Then, it was "he is Magic and Jordan comined"...
Then he stopped playing PG. And stopped playing SG.
Then, it was the whole "firdst player to get back-to-back-home-games-whatever-in-the-playoffs"
then, refs were bailing him out.

I'm sick of all this crap!

Is Lebron James having a monster year?
Is Lebron James one of the best 5 players in the League?
Right in both counts.
HAs it mean much so far?
Absolutely not.

I hated Kobe Bryant with a passion (resulting in my voicing that the Lakers should kick his *** outta Dodge after his public tantrums this off-season). But i can see and apretiate what he has developed into.

the Lakers are at top of the Western Conference.
The same Conference who has some MVPs aorund.
The same Conference that has Duncan and the Spurs, Dallas, Phoenix, and the Eastern imports like Iverson, Shaq and Kidd.
The Lakers are at top without their Center and with guys like Fisher and Wanton starting.
That's a freaking feat.

The Cavs are #4 in the Eastern Conference where there are only 2 teams worth been giving a damn, in Boston and Detroit (and Detroit is going nowhere).

So, please marvel at Lebron James' stats. I would rather watch Kobe and the way he is blending into the underdog Lakers.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Dre™ said:


> This is unfair to Kobe. He's the most complete player in the game, and Lebron has a lot to work on before he compares on either side of the ball. His offensive game is too limited at this point, and until Lebron becomes a better overrall shooter and doesn't just rely on his size to do the job, they're not going to compare player to player.


This is silly, to be frank. Shooting is simply one aspect of what makes someone a good basketball player. I definitely believe that Kobe is the better shooter than Lebron. He's just not as good in a lot of other areas.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> I don't have a problem with people who vote for Kobe at all. Kobe received a lot of votes when we took this poll a couple of weeks ago, it's silly to think that's he's not going to get a lot of votes now.


I was just teasing you :angel:

I think I actually like Lebron more personally but I got to vote for Kobe. I even think I would rather have Lebron on the Bulls than Kobe, but that's just me. I just hate the person Kobe, that's all.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



PauloCatarino said:


> Sure he was.
> 
> Look, Brandname, i have been spoonfed mr. Lebron James for years now by the media and it just won't fly. Maybe you are more impressionable (sp?) than i am, so you can see though all the BS that's been made about this player...
> 
> ...


Well it's not like you've ever been particularly unbiased when it comes to LBJ.  You've always hated the guy. 

What Lebron has done this year goes way beyond stats by the way. He's just got 'it'. He's killing teams at the end of games. Just crushing their spirit. My arguments in this thread haven't been based on stats. 

If your argument is that the Lakers are a better team than the Cavs, I will readily concede that, even though it hasn't been shown in their recent head to head matchups.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> I was just teasing you :angel:
> 
> I think I actually like Lebron more personally but I got to vote for Kobe. I even think I would rather have Lebron on the Bulls than Kobe, but that's just me. I just hate the person Kobe, that's all.


I think it just depends on what you need for your team. There will be teams that would need a Lebron more than a Kobe, and there are teams that would need a Kobe more than a Lebron.

It's the people who act like this somehow isn't close that are being ridiculous.


----------



## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Why are all the LeBron fans too scared to say he is better than Kobe? Seriously. Futuristxen?

I think Kobe is a slightly better scorer and a marginally better defender. LeBron is a significantly better passer and rebounder. Both guys' value go beyond the stat sheets, but in similar ways. I understand that Kobe is playing less of a scoring role in his team's offense, but I don't think he has improved as a player since the 35 ppg season, and LeBron this year is better than Kobe was that year too. I also think LeBron would play at least as well in a situation like Kobe's right now.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Hakeem said:


> Why are all the LeBron fans too scared to say he is better than Kobe? Seriously. Futuristxen?
> 
> I think Kobe is a slightly better scorer and a marginally better defender. LeBron is a significantly better passer and rebounder. Both guys' value go beyond the stat sheets, but in similar ways. I understand that Kobe is playing less of a scoring role in his team's offense, but I don't think he has improved as a player since the 35 ppg season, and LeBron this year is better than Kobe was that year too. I also think LeBron would play at least as well in a situation like Kobe's right now.


I'm not scared to say he's better. I've said that I believe he's the better player.

But the reason I'm not speaking in absolutes is because I see how ridiculous is sounds when people like Dre do it. Makes me think they haven't seen the two guys play that much. Being as objective as I can when I watch the two, they're pretty damn close in the way they can completely command a game. I just happen to think Lebron's a little more effective. And it's not just me being a homer because I've tried to account for that when deciding how I'm ranking them. I thought Kobe was the better player last year.

It's also why I'm not going to insult Kobe to make Lebron look better. It's silly what some people will do. But of course I'm the one who's going to be labeled as the fanboy, but whatever. I'm just trying to be as honest as I can.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> I think it just depends on what you need for your team. There will be teams that would need a Lebron more than a Kobe, and there are teams that would need a Kobe more than a Lebron.
> 
> It's the people who act like this somehow isn't close that are being ridiculous.


Yeah it's definitely close. Lebron is just insane and something I don't think the NBA has ever seen before. I think some people just want to see if he can keep it up. At this pace Lebron WILL pass up Kobe, as long as Lebron gets a ring. 

So hit the gym Lebron and work on that jump-shot.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Well it's not like you've ever been particularly unbiased when it comes to LBJ.  You've always hated the guy.


that doesn't affect my way of judging players. Like i've said, Lebron James is Top-5/4 in the NBA today (in no particular order - Duncan, Paul, Kobe)



> What Lebron has done this year goes way beyond stats by the way. He's just got 'it'. He's killing teams at the end of games. Just crushing their spirit. My arguments in this thread haven't been based on stats.


It will take more than a couple dozen regular season games to prove it. and that's what i've been talking about: playoffs will tell the difference. One way or the other.



> If your argument is that the Lakers are a better team than the Cavs, I will readily concede that, even though it hasn't been shown in their recent head to head matchups.


My argument is that Kobe is leading the Lakers (that have two starters named Fish and Walton) to the top of the Conference who not only was multiple MVP winners (Nash, Duncan, Dirk) but also teams that have been regarded as championship contenders (San Antonio, Dallas, Phoenix), and also the Conference that has just landed a Top-4/5 Pg in Kidd and a Top-4/5 Center in Snaq.


----------



## Kaas (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Every time this topic comes up, you have the same people arguing for Kobe, the same people arguing for Lebron, the same people trying to tear down Kobe, and the same people trying to tear down Lebron. What the **** is the point? Discussion is all well and good, but it feels like every single time there is so much repetition in arguments. Whenever one person makes a valid point or counter argument, the person who got proven wrong seems to conveniently forget it and go back to the same tired argument they had to begin with in the next Kobe vs. Lebron thread.

No one is convincing anyone to switch sides here. This is more a gauge of public opinion than it is a method of persuasion. If you came in championing Lebron or Kobe, you'll go out still thinking that same person is the best player.

I think discussion is healthy, but too many people come in with the attitude of having to "defend my guy."


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> This is silly, to be frank. Shooting is simply one aspect of what makes someone a good basketball player. I definitely believe that Kobe is the better shooter than Lebron. He's just not as good in a lot of other areas.


Shooting is a _major_ part of a wing player's game. Like I've said before, Kobe has a better offensive arsenal, so I'm more comfortable choosing him. Until Lebron broadens his offensive game, Kobe's going to continue to be a notch above the other perimeter players in the league, and that's just how I feel. Lebron is a great scorer, but it's not because of his wide range of skills, it's moreso because he's physically superior. That's not a knock, but when you compare him to the best, that's his downfall.

Kobe's not only physically superior to his opponents, he's a lot more skilled. When you look at how many different ways you see him score during a game, he's just the best. I know they have roughly the same production, but in a direct comparision of two equal players, it becomes about how you score, not how much. 

It's a close comparision, they're both on the same tier, but Kobe's just slightly better for the reasons I slated. I don't think it's all that bad, seeing as how young Lebron is to Kobe. He has years to refine his game.


----------



## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

For a guy who has almost universally been accepted by a lot of top critics as being the best player in the world, Kobe. Why is it he has never faired too well in the PER ranking? His best year was a score of 28 and has never finished better than 3 overall which was 1 time. Meanwhile in his short career, Lebron has already finished a year with a better per ranking(his third year) than Kobe has ever placed and finished top 3 twice with a current PER of over 30!

Not saying that these numbers are a clear indication, more of why hasnt Kobe faired better in this particular stat which is regarded as the best player evaluation stat out of all the popular ones?


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TyGuy said:


> For a guy who has almost universally been accepted by a lot of top critics as being the best player in the world, Kobe. Why is it he has never faired too well in the PER ranking? His best year was a score of 28 and has never finished better than 3 overall which was 1 time. Meanwhile in his short career, Lebron has already finished a year with a better per ranking(his third year) than Kobe has ever placed and finished top 3 twice with a current PER of over 30!
> 
> Not saying that these numbers are a clear indication, more of why hasnt Kobe faired better in this particular stat which is regarded as the best player evaluation stat out of all the popular ones?


By that stat (PER) Tracie McGreedy has had a season who rivalled the best ones of a player named Wilt Chamberlain.
The same Tracie who has never won a playoff series...

And i think i can remember someone saying Fat Lever had, once, a better PER season than Magic Johnson...

LOL


----------



## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



PauloCatarino said:


> By that stat (PER) Tracie McGreedy has had a season who rivalled the best ones of a player named Wilt Chamberlain.
> The same Tracie who has never won a playoff series...
> 
> And i think i can remember someone saying Fat Lever had, once, a better PER season than Magic Johnson...
> ...


According to basketball reference, fat lever never finished top 20, so I highly doubt that. Tracy mcgrady had that one really awesome year where he finished above 30. Since then he has declined significantly in this particular stat.

I never said it was perfect, im just wondering why Kobe hasnt faired better on this particular stat. So maybe instead of tryign to tear it down, come up with a reasonable explanation?


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TyGuy said:


> According to basketball reference, fat lever never finished top 20, so I highly doubt that. Tracy mcgrady had that one really awesome year where he finished above 30. Since then he has declined significantly in this particular stat.
> 
> I never said it was perfect, im just wondering why Kobe hasnt faired better on this particular stat. So maybe instead of tryign to tear it down, come up with a reasonable explanation?


I'm kindof old school myself. Can PER explain Kobe's 14 straight points for the Lakers in the 4th quarter of a game against the Mavs? Can PER explain his crazy 3pointers against the Blazers in that game?
Off course not.
PER will tell you that Tracie McGreedy had a season comparable to a peak Wilt Chamberlain's. Must i say anything more? It's obviously flawed... (unless, off course, you think that, in that season, Tracie was one of the greatest players the game has ever knowned)...


----------



## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



PauloCatarino said:


> I'm kindof old school myself. Can PER explain Kobe's 14 straight points for the Lakers in the 4th quarter of a game against the Mavs? Can PER explain his crazy 3pointers against the Blazers in that game?
> Off course not.
> PER will tell you that Tracie McGreedy had a season comparable to a peak Wilt Chamberlain's. Must i say anything more? It's obviously flawed... (unless, off course, you think that, in that season, Tracie was one of the greatest players the game has ever knowned)...


Once again, this doesnt answer my question, merely dodging it like borris dodges bullets. Shoveling dirt on tracy mcgrady isnt going anywhere and this isnt an argument, merely a question.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TyGuy said:


> Once again, this doesnt answer my question, merely dodging it like borris dodges bullets. Shoveling dirt on tracy mcgrady isnt going anywhere and this isnt an argument, merely a question.


As far as i'm concerned, there's no armunet to be discussed. a stat (PER) that, taken seriously, would mean T-Mac once had a season who could rival Wilt Chamberlain's peak seasons is, per se, a mockery.

If THAT is the result of regarding PER as a stat, i say it's a waste of time. I don't feel the need to debunk a theory that, in itself, shows that it shouldn't be taken seriously.


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

I wanna see this thread go over 100 pages


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> I wanna see this thread go over 100 pages


no baiting.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TyGuy said:


> For a guy who has almost universally been accepted by a lot of top critics as being the best player in the world, Kobe. Why is it he has never faired too well in the PER ranking? His best year was a score of 28 and has never finished better than 3 overall which was 1 time. Meanwhile in his short career, Lebron has already finished a year with a better per ranking(his third year) than Kobe has ever placed and finished top 3 twice with a current PER of over 30!
> 
> Not saying that these numbers are a clear indication, more of why hasnt Kobe faired better in this particular stat which is regarded as the best player evaluation stat out of all the popular ones?


PER's creator, John Hollinger, readily admits his statistic isn't all-encompassing. Additionally, PER doesn't factor in defense or intangibles like dribble efficiency or clutchness. PER is used as a general gauge of player impact, but IMO the difference between a player with a PER of 25 (Kobe) and 30 (LeBron) is insignificant when you take their roles into account. Bryant was over a PER of 28 just two years ago but his impact that season wasn't as good as it has been this year, on average, due to his superior defensive impact, passing, and general possession/dribble efficiency this year, especially off the ball. Yet the difference in PER this year versus his 05-06 season of 28 PER is 12%, a seemingly noticeable difference. 

I will say, though, that the difference between 20 and 30 PER is much more significant, and at that point it would be very very unlikely you could argue a player with a 20 PER is better than one with a 30 PER unless the former had tremendous defensive/intangible impact (like a Pippen, for example) while the later did not (like 02-03 Tmac for example, who also had a PER of 30). 

Also, it must be said that players like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson never broke PERs of 27 during their prime. According to PER, players like Tmac, LeBron, Kobe, and Wade were all better players than Bird/Magic at their peak. A ridiculous assertion, especially WRT Tmac and Wade, if you ever watched the impact Bird and Magic had intangibly. Bird as a shooter spreading the floor like basically no one in history could, and being an absolute magician off the ball, and Magic's ability to see the court exceptionally well resulting in the relentless hitting of the open man or relentlessly feeding a mismatch.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



HB said:


> Passing and rebounding?


True, ill give you rebounding but in terms of passing, thats debatable.



HB said:


> *You dont see too many 6'8 players averaging 8 rpg.* Regardless of how he gets it, you can't just throw it out the window.


They're actually not that uncommon tho....Off the top...guys like Melo, J. Smith, Haslem, Lee, they do it all night in and night out.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

edited


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

*no baiting.*


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> edited


That's funny because everyone else wants to see you banned.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> That's funny because everyone else wants to see you banned.


not true.:whistling:


i get numerous profanity laced reps but thats about it :thinking2:


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Let's stay on topic.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> not true.:whistling:
> 
> 
> i get numerous profanity laced reps but thats about it :thinking2:


That isn't good man!


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

i think lebron is better than kobe. why?


because not a lot of people can put 30 7 and 8. kobe's numbers are good but keep in mind he's only doing this to win a championship, but if lebron has help like kobe i think lebron can average 24 pts 10 rebs and 10 assists a game.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> i think lebron is better than kobe. why?
> 
> 
> because not a lot of people can put 30 7 and 8. kobe's numbers are good but keep in mind he's only doing this to win a championship, but if lebron has help like kobe i think lebron can average 24 pts 10 rebs and 10 assists a game.


I think Lebron plays to get a championship also


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> That isn't good man!


 yeah man




i dont even know why. sure im annoying, sure i suck at thread making,sure i fail at everything but doesnt mean i deserve that ******* and ******* and ***** and finally **********!**!!:eek8:


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> yeah man
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah you are pretty annoying, i think I count 1 good thread you've ever made


----------



## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> I think Lebron plays to get a championship also


as long as there is a western conference lebron will never win a championship


----------



## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

why do ppl say kobe is the better scorer? lebron scores more than him, with better efficiency. baffles me. so what if kobe can shoot better than lebron? so can jason kapono. leborn is better than kobe in every other aspect of the game. he is better at goin to the hole, better at finishing. since he came into the league, he has been better at the end of games than kobe during that same span...ppl talk about lebron being a good scorer because his body is bigger...so they penalize him for that..well iverson has a better career scoring average than kobe does, while being signficantly smaller...scoring is the best thing that kobe does...yet he isn't even the best at that right now. 

people overlook lebron as a scorer because he does everything else so well. i mean... in his third year dude averaged 32ppg. kobe;s defense is vastly overrated, and i think lebron is at least as good as him this year. kobe gets the benefit of the doubt from the refs. ive seen him grap and scratch players numerous times every game..and only a fraction of those fouls are actually called. lebron is also smarter than kobe on a basketball court.

kobe isnt even a top 3 player in the NBA. i would chose lebron, duncan, and garnet over KB.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



ElMarroAfamado said:


> as long as there is a western conference lebron will never win a championship


well it depends on if he gets help or not...


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



duncan2k5 said:


> why do ppl say kobe is the better scorer? lebron scores more than him, with better efficiency. baffles me. so what if kobe can shoot better than lebron? so can jason kapono. leborn is better than kobe in every other aspect of the game. he is better at goin to the hole, better at finishing. since he came into the league, he has been better at the end of games than kobe during that same span...ppl talk about lebron being a good scorer because his body is bigger...so they penalize him for that..well iverson has a better career scoring average than kobe does, while being signficantly smaller...scoring is the best thing that kobe does...yet he isn't even the best at that right now.
> 
> people overlook lebron as a scorer because he does everything else so well. i mean... in his third year dude averaged 32ppg. kobe;s defense is vastly overrated, and i think lebron is at least as good as him this year. kobe gets the benefit of the doubt from the refs. ive seen him grap and scratch players numerous times every game..and only a fraction of those fouls are actually called. lebron is also smarter than kobe on a basketball court.
> 
> kobe isnt even a top 3 player in the NBA. i would chose lebron, duncan, and garnet over KB.


because Kobe can shoot a 3 and a jumper, lebron can't. It's not that hard man. Only you and aznzen don't seem to get it.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



duncan2k5 said:


> why do ppl say kobe is the better scorer? *lebron scores more than him, with better efficiency. baffles me. so what if kobe can shoot better than lebron? so can jason kapono. leborn is better than kobe in every other aspect of the game. he is better at goin to the hole, better at finishing. since he came into the league, he has been better at the end of games than kobe during that same span...ppl talk about lebron being a good scorer because his body is bigger...so they penalize him for that..well iverson has a better career scoring average than kobe does, while being signficantly smaller...scoring is the best thing that kobe does...yet he isn't even the best at that right now. *
> 
> people overlook lebron as a scorer because he does everything else so well. i mean... in his third year dude averaged 32ppg. kobe;s defense is vastly overrated, and i think lebron is at least as good as him this year. kobe gets the benefit of the doubt from the refs. ive seen him grap and scratch players numerous times every game..and only a fraction of those fouls are actually called. lebron is also smarter than kobe on a basketball court.
> 
> kobe isnt even a top 3 player in the NBA. i would chose lebron, duncan, and garnet over KB.


Wake me up when Lebron James scores +50 points against the Dallas Maveriks playing with a dislocated finger IN HIS SHOOTING HAND!


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> yeah you are pretty annoying, i think I count 1 good thread you've ever made


not really i have about 10 threads with 15 + pages each.



try again NOOB :whistling:


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> because Kobe can shoot a 3 and a jumper, lebron can't. It's not that hard man. Only you and aznzen don't seem to get it.


duncan2k5 speaks the truth though


stfu anyway. ur one of the biggest kobe homer in this thread.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> not really i have about 10 threads with 15 + pages each.
> 
> 
> 
> try again NOOB :whistling:


i'm the noob with 6100 posts? :laugh: 

You must be an uber noob then or something


----------



## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



EHL said:


> PER's creator, John Hollinger, readily admits his statistic isn't all-encompassing. Additionally, PER doesn't factor in defense or intangibles like dribble efficiency or clutchness. PER is used as a general gauge of player impact, but IMO the difference between a player with a PER of 25 (Kobe) and 30 (LeBron) is insignificant when you take their roles into account. Bryant was over a PER of 28 just two years ago but his impact that season wasn't as good as it has been this year, on average, due to his superior defensive impact, passing, and general possession/dribble efficiency this year, especially off the ball. Yet the difference in PER this year versus his 05-06 season of 28 PER is 12%, a seemingly noticeable difference.


Wouldn't you have to say though that Kobe passing more readily this season, playing with greater intensity on the defensive end and being more efficient controlling the ball has a lot to do with playing with better teammates? I know Gasol is only a recent acquisition, but if you combine his and Bynum's games, that's over 80% of the season so far. Also, Derek Fisher, Jordan Farmar and Sasha Vujacic have all been really good. Yet, with all these upgrades, the Lakers have only gone from the 8th best offensive side in the league to the 4th. That's certainly a significant climb, but it's not huge. If Kobe really has become a more impactful player on the offensive end, you would expect a greater rise than that, given the sizable improvement in the supporting cast.

I don't think he's any better now than he was that season. The situation has simply allowed him to do different things.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> duncan2k5 speaks the truth though
> 
> 
> stfu anyway. ur one of the biggest kobe homer in this thread.


please he thinks kobe isn't even top 3 in the league

kobe is #2

FACT. 

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron

turn on espn man


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> i'm the noob with 6100 posts? :laugh:
> 
> You must be an ignorant,stupid, dumb,know nothing,scum uber noob then or something


post reported for personal attacks.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> please he thinks kobe isn't even top 3 in the league
> 
> kobe is #2
> 
> ...



#1 duncan
#2 chris paul
#3 kevin garnett
#4 lebron 
#5 kome


as you can see kobe has no place among # 12 or slots.:rules:


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

If this thread has one more off-topic post it's getting closed.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> #1 duncan
> #2 chris paul
> #3 kevin garnett
> #4 lebron
> ...


The only one you have correct is Duncan. Otherwise it's just horrible. All Chris Paul can do is pass. KG is just an epic whiner. LEbon is number 3. Who is Kome? Silly goose! Kobe deserves to be number 1. he has earned it.

:thinking2:


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Dre™ said:


> If this thread has one more off-topic post it's getting closed.


ok im sorry


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> The only one you have correct is Duncan. Otherwise it's just horrible. All Chris Paul can do is pass. KG is just an epic whiner. LEbon is number 3. *Who is Kome?* Silly goose! Kobe deserves to be number 1. he has earned it.
> 
> :thinking2:


nice for you to correct me. who is LEbon?:whistling:


----------



## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



PauloCatarino said:


> Wake me up when Lebron James scores +50 points against the Dallas Maveriks playing with a dislocated finger IN HIS SHOOTING HAND![/QUOTEKobe does get to play the mavs more often being that both teams are in the west. You can make the same argument for lebron destroying the pistons and al ot of other east coast teams.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> nice for you to correct me. who is LEbon?:whistling:


What? We aren't at school get a grip.


----------



## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



ElMarroAfamado said:


> as long as there is a western conference lebron will never win a championship


Is there a method to your madness? it seems like you have a quota for sly remarks you must make of lebron each day.

Never say never when you deal with greatness, the future is never written in stone.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TyGuy said:


> Is there a method to your madness? it seems liek you have a quota for sly remarks you must make of lebron each day.



I hope Lebron gets some help cause he deserves a ring


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Holy cow, see what happens when I leave a thread? I come back later and this thing is in shambles. 

Anyhow, one thing I want to mention before we go back to throwing feces at each other is that Lebron's offensive arsenal is way undervalued by the posters on this board. His scoring touch 10 feet and in is second to none, and yes that includes Kobe. He has an arsenal of hook shots, sweeping banks, floaters, left-handed scoop shots, and some pretty amazing layups that nobody else in the league could complete.

And this goes back all the way to his rookie season. Go back and watch Lebron's first game in the NBA. He was running down the court and Brad Miller tried to take a charge on him, but he deftly stepped aside and made an underhanded, left-handed scoop shot that not even Kobe could complete with consistency. I figured it was luck at the time, but it didn't take long to realize that it's actually a shot he has in his arsenal that he completes quite frequently.

Everyone tries to say that Kobe is more skilled offensively because he's a better shooter, but he doesn't have Lebron's moves 10 feet and in. Because as much as you guys like to talk about how easy it is to stop Lebron by packing the lane, no team in the league can do it consistently. It's because of his offensive arsenal that's underrated here than he can still score so efficiently without being a great jump shooter.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Kobe does things that Lebron will never be able to do in his career. His degree of difficulty shots, his offensive explosions where he's just locked in and nothing can stop him from scoring. Those are things I don't see Lebron ever having in his career. And they definitely leave quite an impression on people (including me). 

Maybe that's why so many people immediately think of Kobe when talking about the best player. He's got some really memorable performances and shots. This especially hurts a guy like Duncan, who just gets the job done with very few extremely memorable performances.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Holy cow, see what happens when I leave a thread? I come back later and this thing is in shambles.
> 
> Anyhow, one thing I want to mention before we go back to throwing feces at each other is that Lebron's offensive arsenal is way undervalued by the posters on this board. His scoring touch 10 feet and in is second to none, and yes that includes Kobe. He has an arsenal of hook shots, sweeping banks, floaters, left-handed scoop shots, and some pretty amazing layups that nobody else in the league could complete.
> 
> ...


Kobe, is able to do more with less then LeBron is able to do. LeBron doesn't have the heart/tenacity that Kobe has. Even LeBron has admitted this. So don't say I'm Wrong Bron Bron Homer.

Also as far as I'm concerned one average season of LeBron playing defense in no way is comparable to Kobes defense.

By the way anyone watch the Bucks Cavs game last week ? LeBron tried playing defense against Mo Williams, well Mo lit LeBron up like it was the 4th of July when Mo blew by LeBron for buckets.

The only thing LeBron is really good at on defense, is being a help defender, and sneaking up on guys from behind for blocks. Thats really it.

As for lay ups that LeBron can make I mean who cares... We've all seen the greatest wing destroyed for dunks/lay ups the past 20 years. Dude name was MJ the guy that LeBron wears the number 23 for. The beautiful thing about Kobe is that he's made such an amazing impact by sharpening his tools to a level we may have never seen before. Kobes jump shot is murder, Kobes defense is relentless. Kobe can pass the ball as well as LeBron, and Kobe is really good rebounding guard.

Check it out Bron is putting up big numbers on a team that will end in the middle of the pack in the weak weak East. His impact hasn't really translated to a great season for the team that pays him the duckets. And it seems the Cavs will continue to go down hill in the terrible east, if Lebron and his fan boys care more about stats then they do about winning ball games.

And this trade the Cavs just made was horrible, the Raptors will end up with a better record then the Cavs.


----------



## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Well atleast lebron fans throw bones Kobes way. Kobe fans make lebron look like he doesnt even belong in the nbdl.


----------



## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Kobe, is able to do more with less then LeBron is able to do. LeBron doesn't have the heart/tenacity that Kobe has. Even LeBron has admitted this. So don't say I'm Wrong Bron Bron Homer.
> 
> Also as far as I'm concerned one average season of LeBron playing defense in no way is comparable to Kobes defense.
> 
> By the way anyone watch the Bucks Cavs game last week ? LeBron tried playing defense against Mo Williams, well Mo lit LeBron up like it was the 4th of July when Mo blew by LeBron for buckets.


Apparently Lebron never took a team full of pieces people claim they want no part of on their team to the nba finals. Lebron has played everybody from tony parker and allen iverson(successfully I might add) to Dirk.

Way to bring up one game where he wasnt even guarding mo the majority of the time. Bron will only step up and take on a point guard, if they are melting hot and nobody else seems to be doing the trick. very small sample size, and shouldn't even be brought up in discussion as far as defense goes.

As for Lebron saying he doesnt have Kobes heart? Why don't you provide a link for that, he has been known to give Kobe a lot of respect, mainly because he has respect for his elders and people who laid the building blocks down for himself. Its also not like his quotes havent been mangles in the past...

You know there are ways to make your point valid without shoveling dirt on said person or who you are arguing against. Maybe if you had respect for other players and posters, people would return that to you.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

How about this, Lebron will never put up the stats he does on a team that is competitive for the championship. No championship caliber team will have one player with the ball in hands controlling the offense just about every possession on the floor.


----------



## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> #1 duncan
> #2 *chris paul*
> #3 kevin garnett
> #4 lebron
> ...


:lol:


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TyGuy said:


> Apparently Lebron never took a team full of pieces people claim they want no part of on their team to the nba finals. Lebron has played everybody from tony parker and allen iverson(successfully I might add) to Dirk.
> 
> Way to bring up one game where he wasnt even guarding mo the majority of the time. Bron will only step up and take on a point guard, if they are melting hot and nobody else seems to be doing the trick. very small sample size, and shouldn't even be brought up in discussion as far as defense goes.
> 
> ...


figures


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TyGuy said:


> Well atleast lebron fans throw bones Kobes way. Kobe fans make lebron look like he doesnt even belong in the nbdl.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TyGuy said:


> Apparently Lebron never took a team full of pieces people claim they want no part of on their team to the nba finals. Lebron has played everybody from tony parker and allen iverson(successfully I might add) to Dirk.
> 
> Way to bring up one game where he wasnt even guarding mo the majority of the time. Bron will only step up and take on a point guard, if they are melting hot and nobody else seems to be doing the trick. very small sample size, and shouldn't even be brought up in discussion as far as defense goes.
> 
> ...


You're right - I don't think LeBron ever said that. What he said was that he doesn't have Kobe's killer instinct yet, but that was a couple of years ago.


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

34 pts and 10 rebs plus another takeover performance on the fourth.




More MVP chants, this time in Sactown. Ho-Hum...


----------



## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

To be fair LeBron took over in the 4th in his last game too. They're both damn great.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Kobe Bryant is fire. An average game through 3 quarters tonight. Then the Kidd jumps off in the 4th quarter with Artest hanging all over him. Who cares though Kobe shook Ronnie off , and murdered him and the Kings with his jumper and drives to the bucket.

One thing is true about Kobe.. He has the greatest never say die attitude I've seen since Big Mike use to bust peoples backsides on the hardwood.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Kobe Bryant is fire. An average game through 3 quarters tonight. Then the Kidd jumps off in the 4th quarter with Artest hanging all over him. Who cares though Kobe shook Ronnie off , and murdered him and the Kings with his jumper and drives to the bucket.
> 
> One thing is true about Kobe.. He has the greatest never say die attitude I've seen since Big Mike use to bust peoples backsides on the hardwood.


That was below-average through 3 quarters - we should not have won that game - but Kobe definitely came through when it mattered most.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KDOS said:


> 34 pts and 10 rebs plus another takeover performance on the fourth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


10/26? and they give him mvp shouts? :thinking2:

:whistling:


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> 10/26? and they give him mvp shouts? :thinking2:
> 
> :whistling:


stop cherry picking man...


----------



## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

*edited*


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> 10/26? and they give him mvp shouts? :thinking2:
> 
> :whistling:


If you didn't watch the game, don't talk about it.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> If you didn't watch the game, don't talk about it.


:clap: thank you


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> stop cherry picking man...


no im not cherry picking. just the truth imo :yes:

i dont think 34 points on 26 shots under 50% shooting is amazing


:whoknows:


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> :clap: thank you


dude since when did you become such a kobe jockstrapper?


wow. i lost all my respect for you.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> dude since when did you become such a kobe jockstrapper?
> 
> 
> wow. i lost all my respect for you.


I think I have a little bit left for you! :wink: ... until you make your next thread


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> I think I have a little bit left for you! :wink: ... until you make your next thread


thanks man.


where's newageballer? i like him too


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> no im not cherry picking. just the truth imo :yes:
> 
> i dont think 34 points on 26 shots under 50% shooting is amazing
> 
> ...


Don't be difficult, you didn't see the game. You didnt see the Warrior Ron Artest, and his Kings battle. The west is a tough conference buddy. Road win's are tough to come by. Just ask the Hornets, Jazz, Mavericks, and Pistons... just to name a few who all have lost at Arco this season to the Kings.

And Kobe shaking the Warrior Artest in the 4th quarter was beyond description and is a big part of what makes Kobe so great. He can have a tough 3 quarters, but channel it, and raise his game when it matters most. It's what the great players do. Kobe is the most consistent in the game at doing it. Even when you have a great defender trying to smother him.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Maybe it's a tribute to LeBron that he can so realistically be compared to Kobe at this point in their careers. Kobe is 29 and already a legend, LeBron is just peaking through the door. Kobe is the smart veteran with all the playoff and championship experience in the world, but is still at the top of his game physically. LeBron is the up and comer who doesn't have that same experience yet. You can argue ability until you're blue in the face, but I think it's Kobe's iron will and presence that stems from experience that gives him the nod for now. This is why Kobe commands such respect and is so feared around the league. LeBron hasn't quite reached that plateau because he hasn't circled the block enough times.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Artest is actually a Tru *Warier*, FYI.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Check out the overrated stats thread Rebounding is one of them. LeBron get's half his rebounds standing by the rim. Don't be fooled by stats. Watch the game more in depth. Look at whos really banging in the paint and fighting for rebounds. LeBron just out jumps guys, or stands and grabs missed free throw rebounds half the game. He's not a Rodman by any stretch of the imagination.


"Lebron just out jumps guys to get his rebounds, they shouldnt count."

Are you insane?


As per topic, everyone but Clevland fans knows Kobes better at this point in time.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Maybe it's a tribute to LeBron that he can so realistically be compared to Kobe at this point in their careers. Kobe is 29 and already a legend, LeBron is just peaking through the door. Kobe is the smart veteran with all the playoff and championship experience in the world, but is still at the top of his game physically. LeBron is the up and comer who doesn't have that same experience yet. You can argue ability until you're blue in the face, but I think it's Kobe's iron will and presence that stems from experience that gives him the nod for now. This is why Kobe commands such respect and is so feared around the league. LeBron hasn't quite reached that plateau because he hasn't circled the block enough times.


Yeah. Thats a very interesting angle to look at. Quite a compliment really for Lebron James that he's already been compared side by side to one of the greatest player in our era. No shame in losing to a guy like Kobe in the popularity contest, especially since the disparity between both is not that far off.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Hakeem said:


> Wouldn't you have to say though that Kobe passing more readily this season, playing with greater intensity on the defensive end and being more efficient controlling the ball has a lot to do with playing with better teammates? I know Gasol is only a recent acquisition, but if you combine his and Bynum's games, that's over 80% of the season so far. Also, Derek Fisher, Jordan Farmar and Sasha Vujacic have all been really good. Yet, with all these upgrades, the Lakers have only gone from the 8th best offensive side in the league to the 4th. That's certainly a significant climb, but it's not huge. If Kobe really has become a more impactful player on the offensive end, you would expect a greater rise than that, given the sizable improvement in the supporting cast.
> 
> I don't think he's any better now than he was that season. The situation has simply allowed him to do different things.


I have no doubt that the other players around him have helped, but that applies to any player. And while the improvements in Bryant this season have been subtle, they are real. I was merely pointing out that the context of the situations should be heavily weighted, perhaps as heavily weighted as PER itself.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Kobe, is able to do more with less then LeBron is able to do. LeBron doesn't have the heart/tenacity that Kobe has. Even LeBron has admitted this. So don't say I'm Wrong Bron Bron Homer.
> 
> Also as far as I'm concerned one average season of LeBron playing defense in no way is comparable to Kobes defense.
> 
> ...


Let me start by saying quite honestly that you're one of the most fanboy-ish posters here. And I'm talking about your posting style. Gotta try to bring down Bron to make Kobe look better, huh? lol

Anyway, Lebron's winning percentage of .642 is not that bad compared to Kobe's winning percentage of .705, especially when you take into account the talent disparity of the teams. 

If saying Lebron fans only care about stats makes you feel better about how good your favorite player is, that's fine. Just don't bring that junk into a real argument, because you'll get run out of the room.


*EDIT *- And regarding the point in red, do you remember when the Lakers played the Cavs and Lebron shut Kobe down in the 4th quarter, while hitting the gamewinning jumper in his face? Of course you do, I know you were watching the game. Especially because you didn't post in here for a while after that. hahaha

The point is, I am not going to try to use that game or any other single game to try to say that Lebron is better than Kobe. In reality, that game against the Lakers means very little as far as I'm concerned in the overall big picture. So I don't use it to back up my arguments. Just to counter your extremely poor point.

Oh and by the way, your facts are wrong about the Milwaukee game anyway, lol.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Here, I'll feed the fire some more:



Maybe people haven't seen it enough, but people aren't talking about how ridiculous Lebron has been in the clutch this year. Both he and Kobe are obviously the two best in the league in these situations, but even then Lebron separates himself significantly from Kobe.

And don't forget, these numbers are normalized for minutes played. So Lebron's numbers aren't higher because he's in clutch situations more often.

He averages 6.3 points more on 1.3 more FGA, rebounds at a higher rate, assists at a higher rate, blocks over twice as many shots, and comes up with 7 times as many steals per 48 minutes. Kobe turns the ball over twice as often in the clutch. And they're essentially equal on the FT line, with a slight edge to Kobe. 

There's a big gap between Kobe/Lebron and the rest of the league in these situations. But Lebron has even separated himself by a good margin over Kobe in the clutch this year. 

It's also important to note I'm not basing my opinions off these stats. By watching games all around the league this year, I have seen that Lebron is the best in clutch situations. So this morning I went to see what the current stats are, and they indeed agree with my observations.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

That should go in the Lebron ridiculous stats thread on the Cavs board.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> That should go in the Lebron ridiculous stats thread on the Cavs board.


You do realize with that sentence, you're going to bring out all of the idiots who are going to say, "Lebron fans only care about stats!!!!!!"

But on this note, I want to point out to everyone else that statistics are used because nobody watches every minute of every game of these guys. And we're all limited somewhat by our own biases when we watch games. The things that are quantifiable can be compared objectively when you look at the numbers, so they're very useful to supplement your knowledge of what happens during the game.

As long as you know what the limitations of the statistics are, they're very useful when comparing production. Things that cannot easily be measured by statistics such as defense have to be observed, and those are often subject to strong bias. People who complain about using statistics are generally the ones without a firm grasp on what information statistics give.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> You do realize with that sentence, you're going to bring out all of the idiots who are going to say, "Lebron fans only care about stats!!!!!!"
> 
> But on this note, I want to point out to everyone else that statistics are used because nobody watches every minute of every game of these guys. And we're all limited somewhat by our own biases when we watch games. The things that are quantifiable can be compared objectively when you look at the numbers, so they're very useful to supplement your knowledge of what happens during the game.
> 
> As long as you know what the limitations of the statistics are, they're very useful when comparing production. Things that cannot easily be measured by statistics such as defense have to be observed, and those are often subject to strong bias. People who complain about using statistics are generally the ones without a firm grasp on what information statistics give.


The only reason people get upset about Lebron fans using stats is because the case is so overwhelmingly in his favor if you use statistics. That's why almost all of the attributes people talk about with Kobe are now intangibles and team oriented things. Whereas they used to cite statistics as well.

I don't really use Lebron's stats except for his very basic points, rebounds, assists averages. I mostly just go on what I see of him. Which is actually more eye popping than the stats. Like that three play demolition of the Bulls the other night, where he basically took the bulls heart out and did a hat dance on it.

Can we get a that GIF of that dunk in here? Luol Deng wanted no part of that.


----------



## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Some Dirk haters should also take a good look at those stats and rethink whether he is "clutch" or not.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

How can Kobe be the MVP of the NBA when he isn't even the MVP of the Lakers? (That would be the Pilsbury Draftboy.)


----------



## iversonfan 349 (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Kobe is better because hes a better shooter.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Hakeem said:


> Wouldn't you have to say though that Kobe passing more readily this season, playing with greater intensity on the defensive end and being more efficient controlling the ball has a lot to do with playing with better teammates? I know Gasol is only a recent acquisition, but if you combine his and Bynum's games, that's over 80% of the season so far. Also, Derek Fisher, Jordan Farmar and Sasha Vujacic have all been really good. Yet, with all these upgrades, the Lakers have only gone from the 8th best offensive side in the league to the 4th. That's certainly a significant climb, but it's not huge. If Kobe really has become a more impactful player on the offensive end, you would expect a greater rise than that, given the sizable improvement in the supporting cast.
> 
> I don't think he's any better now than he was that season. The situation has simply allowed him to do different things.


they're essentially tied with utah at 113.5 eff for 2nd right now. cle is 17th (19th last year). 

guys simply are more efficient playing on the lakers than they would be somewhere else. fisher, farmer, sasha, vlad, all these guys.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



iversonfan 349 said:


> Kobe is better because hes a better shooter.


Lebron's better because he's better at scoring in the paint.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Here, I'll feed the fire some more:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Finally you have ended the debate and proved Lebron is better... 

Until the next time he misses a shot. :yes:


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Hmmm...LeBron's currently waxing Kobe 86% to 12% on the MVP Poll at NBA.COM. 200000+ votes already in.


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

^^Yep. SamTheMan67, Futur, Bradname, I know you like your boy, but hacking a poll to prove a point? Which one of you was it? 

Here's a post off RealGM on the matter:
"It's obviously hacked.

The Poll just got 100,000 votes in less than an hour. In fact, it's generating 1,000 new votes per minute... on a Midnight (3 AM ET).

It's easy to hack NBA.com polls.

Unlike ESPN, all you have to do is "Turn-Off" your Cookies, and you can vote as many times as you want on NBA.com.

You can even download an online Automated Clicker to help you out. Feel free to PM me for links to one."

Funny stuff either way you spin it. The World has apparently finally came to a revelation and people outside of Ohio are starting to think that not only is he a better player but also the MVP this year.


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Plastic Man said:


> ^^Yep. SamTheMan67, Futur, Bradname, I know you like your boy, but hacking a poll to prove a point? Which one of you was it?
> 
> Here's a post off RealGM on the matter:
> "It's obviously hacked.
> ...


Awwww. Kobe groupies don't have to be sore losers about this. 1000+ votes per minute is nothing new. I've seen ESPN polls get more than that and they don't even get as much traffic as NBA.COM does.

Besides, given the NBA's popularity in Europe and Asia, there's nothing remotely fishy abt that many votes coming in at that time.


----------



## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Jesus I didn't know you kept the statistical average of votes per hour on the poll lmao. finally some real nba fans voting =)


pss. Just when I think AJ23 can't get owned any harder brandname gives him a new *******


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Plastic Man said:


> ^^Yep. SamTheMan67, Futur, Bradname, I know you like your boy, but hacking a poll to prove a point? Which one of you was it?
> 
> Here's a post off RealGM on the matter:
> "It's obviously hacked.
> ...


It's funny because my mom emailed me yesterday because she saw the ESPN poll and the only two states that Lebron won were Ohio and Rhode Island, and I live in Rhode Island, so she wanted to know if I was stuffing the ballots.

I actually very rarely vote in online polls.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> It's funny because my mom emailed me yesterday because she saw the ESPN poll and the only two states that Lebron won were Ohio and Rhode Island, and I live in Rhode Island, so she wanted to know if I was stuffing the ballots.
> 
> I actually very rarely vote in online polls.


:lol: your mom emailed that to you? That's hilarious.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

futur , If there was a woman in las vegas who liked LeBron as much as you no matter how unattractive some of her traits were I would still go on a date hahaha. If only you werent the only one


----------



## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Kobe groupie? Lol. Why don't you try something different for a change? I have other things in life to worry about than who gets how many votes on an internet site and I clearly stated from where the quote was. I just think that neither of the polls is worth getting your panties wet just yet. (btw, SPMJ, I'm from Europe and when the time is 0:00 ET I'm sound asleep as well as the majority of the continent... you should at least check up timezones before you post stuff. Not that it matters, I just thought I'd enlighten you).

Thinking that someone "rigged" the results is funny or maybe slightly paranoid/unsecured. Thinking that 75 vs 25 on ESPN or 15 vs 85 on nba.com is something that solidifies the opinion of the majority of basketball fans or makes LBJ > Kobe or vice versa a fact is idiotic. 

For all the amount of hate you people have, you do post an awful lot in topics regarded to your so hated player. And to think I myself and many other Lakers fans give credit to James where it's due... 

peace

p.s.: futuristxten... hahahha good one  that makes the two of us. These polls are usually so badly positioned that I don't even notice 90% of them.


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Here, I'll feed the fire some more:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Considering that Kobe's team has been so efficiently good this year that the normal clutch shots usually dedicated to Kobe is now spread around to players like Fisher,Farmar,Pau and Vujacic, Kobe's slightly lower stat rate on clutch situations is bit unfair for him for comparisons.



If you're watching games all around the league this year, you know that the Lakers have won 28 games by double digit points. The Cavs have won 7 games by double digit points. So this explains Lebron's greater statistical clutch numbers. Simply, its because Kobe's in a better situation right now so his game play doesnt merit takeover unlike the past few years.


Kobe hasn't even played a lot in the 4th quarter this season in comparison to others to think of it. Ive seen so many games where Kobe's completely well rested sometimes as early as the third quarter.


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Plastic Man said:


> ^^Yep. SamTheMan67, Futur, Bradname, I know you like your boy, but hacking a poll to prove a point? Which one of you was it?
> 
> Here's a post off RealGM on the matter:
> "It's obviously hacked.
> ...


Wow @1000 votes per min. That poll revolutions as fast as a LS1 Corvette engine.:rofl2:


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TakaraJinRoh said:


> Considering that Kobe's team has been so efficiently good this year that the normal clutch shots usually dedicated to Kobe is now spread around to players like Fisher,Farmar,Pau and Vujacic, Kobe's slightly lower stat rate on clutch situations is bit unfair for him for comparisons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually Brandname said that that stat accounts for Kobe's blowouts. It doesn't matter how many clutch situations you've been in. That's not what is swinging it. It's that in the clutch situations they've both been in Lebron has been a lot better. And the teammate thing doesn't really wash, because Lebron is beating Kobe in clutch assists too.

You don't really even need statistics to see this. Lebron has just been taking over fourth quarters all year. Moreso than anyone has a right to. He's basically been doing what he did to the Pistons last year in every single game every night it's needed. Look at the defensive numbers as well. Lebron's clutch defense has been out of this world.


----------



## kbird (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Cavs have already lost almost 30 games, and they've played about 5 real games ( San Antonio, Celtics, etc.... )

WTF! 

LeBron should be in basketball special olympics. 

Parker, better Duncan, better, Ginobili, about twice as good as Lebull****

Guy is not even top 10 player, just another Nike/Stern stat faking machine.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Yeah, like I said, Lebron just produces a lot more and produces more efficiently in the clutch for the same amount of time.

One legitimate argument I could see against those stats is that Kobe just doesn't have the ball in his hands as much at clutch time as Lebron does. This agrees with what I see when I watch games. And it obviously works for the Lakers.

If that's the case, you have to concede that the combination of offensive system and players that the Lakers have made Kobe's job a lot easier. Which makes Lebron's higher efficiency pretty significant, in my opinion.

Usually, when someone produces more out of overusage, efficiency will tend to drop. It's characteristically the mark of a better player when he has a higher level of production *as well as* higher efficiency.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Actually Brandname said that that stat accounts for Kobe's blowouts. It doesn't matter how many clutch situations you've been in. That's not what is swinging it. It's that in the clutch situations they've both been in Lebron has been a lot better. And the teammate thing doesn't really wash, because Lebron is beating Kobe in clutch assists too.
> 
> You don't really even need statistics to see this. Lebron has just been taking over fourth quarters all year. Moreso than anyone has a right to. He's basically been doing what he did to the Pistons last year in every single game every night it's needed. Look at the defensive numbers as well. Lebron's clutch defense has been out of this world.


we're still talking about only 4% of kobe's total minutes this year. lebron's #'s are freakish and his sample size is much larger. 

what it does do is take the kobe is more clutch argument out of the equation, at least for this year's mvp. it's a notch for lebron. not a huge one, but one nonetheless.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

also note that the lakers being the better team in the much better conference are likely to have their closer games against better competition. coupled with the smaller sample size, it makes it tough to compare. what you really have to do is look at the numbers for both guys and say wow.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Yeah, by no means is it supposed to be some conclusive determination of the better player.

Rather, I think some people might genuinely be missing what this guy has been doing in the 4th quarters this year, and a comparison to Kobe gives a good idea how good he's been.


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Actually Brandname said that that stat accounts for Kobe's blowouts. It doesn't matter how many clutch situations you've been in. That's not what is swinging it. It's that in the clutch situations they've both been in Lebron has been a lot better. And the teammate thing doesn't really wash, because Lebron is beating Kobe in clutch assists too.
> 
> You don't really even need statistics to see this. Lebron has just been taking over fourth quarters all year. Moreso than anyone has a right to. He's basically been doing what he did to the Pistons last year in every single game every night it's needed. Look at the defensive numbers as well. Lebron's clutch defense has been out of this world.



Not necessarily a clear cut _better_ like you said it. Clutch situations doesnt take the other side of the game, like defense. Kobe's just a better defender than Lebron in clutch situations. I am a witness. IF you guys just watched how Kobe shut Kevin Martin Dwon on the fourth when they are trailing, then completely demoralized Sacramento on the offensive end, then you guys would have access to a much clearer picture.


Also the Lakers plas a very pass oriented team than the Cavs, even in the fourth quarter. When lebron passes, normally to say Boobie or Damon Jones, chances are they will take that shot. Kobe does the same thing and its not unusual to see the ball spread around even further before a shot is released.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TakaraJinRoh said:


> Not necessarily a clear cut _better_ like you said it. Clutch situations doesnt take the other side of the game, like defense.* Kobe's just a better defender than Lebron in clutch situations.* I am a witness. IF you guys just watched how Kobe shut Kevin Martin Dwon on the fourth when they are trailing, then completely demoralized Sacramento on the offensive end, then you guys would have access to a much clearer picture.
> 
> 
> Also the Lakers plas a very pass oriented team than the Cavs, even in the fourth quarter. When lebron passes, normally to say Boobie or Damon Jones, chances are they will take that shot. Kobe does the same thing and its not unusual to see the ball spread around even further before a shot is released.


Sorry man, but this isn't true. Lebron's clutch defense this year has been second to none in terms of wing players, including Kobe. The knock against Lebron's defense is that he doesn't play that way during the first 3 quarters, but make no mistake, when the game is on the line he's just as good of a defender as Kobe.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> If that's the case, you have to concede that the combination of offensive system and players that the Lakers have made Kobe's job a lot easier. Which makes Lebron's higher efficiency pretty significant, in my opinion.


I dont think Lebron's higher efficiency is pretty significant when his team is not winning more.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TakaraJinRoh said:


> Considering that Kobe's team has been so efficiently good this year that the normal clutch shots usually dedicated to Kobe is now spread around to players like Fisher,Farmar,Pau and Vujacic, Kobe's slightly lower stat rate on clutch situations is bit unfair for him for comparisons.


Take a look at the minutes covered and Kobe's shot rate (hint, it's virtually the same as LeBron's) and get back to me.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TakaraJinRoh said:


> I dont think Lebron's higher efficiency is pretty significant when his team is not winning more.


It is. 

So Kobe's team is better. Yeah I'm not going to argue that. They're really talented right now. Are you trying to imply that Kobe is sacrificing efficiency for the good of the team?


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Sorry man, but this isn't true. Lebron's clutch defense this year has been second to none in terms of wing players, including Kobe. The knock against Lebron's defense is that he doesn't play that way during the first 3 quarters, but make no mistake, when the game is on the line he's just as good of a defender as Kobe.


We just have to agree to disagree since there is no way we can prove whose really been better in that category.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Sorry man, but this isn't true. Lebron's clutch defense this year has been second to none in terms of wing players, including Kobe. The knock against Lebron's defense is that he doesn't play that way during the first 3 quarters, but make no mistake, when the game is on the line he's just as good of a defender as Kobe.


which means you believe he's just as skilled a defender as kobe. and i'd question whether that's true yet. even when he's focussed. not that he doesn't have a strength and length advantage.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



kbird said:


> ...i ... should be in .... special olympics.


I'm glad to see that you've finally achieved a modicum of self awareness.


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> It is.
> 
> So Kobe's team is better. Yeah I'm not going to argue that. They're really talented right now. Are you trying to imply that Kobe is sacrificing efficiency for the good of the team?


No sir. No implications about the latter part of your statement. I was just merely inferring that at the grandest scheme of things, Lebron's efficiency is not much significant than Kobe's when his team is not winning more. People can say that Kobe's lakers are better which is true and undeniable but if we are speaking relatively of clutch situations, which the main point is to close games, then I cant see why Lebron gets a much signifcant nod over Kobe.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



kflo said:


> which means you believe he's just as skilled a defender as kobe. and i'd question whether that's true yet. even when he's focussed. not that he doesn't have a strength and length advantage.


On what basis would you question it though?


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TakaraJinRoh said:


> We just have to agree to disagree since there is no way we can prove whose really been better in that category.


Well there aren't really any statistics that will tell you a player's individual defense during crunch time, so you just have to watch the games and find any information you can to help. 

One thing that might be of interest is that the Lakers' defensive efficiency is 3.4 points worse for Kobe's crunch time minutes vs. his normal minutes. The Cavs' defensive efficiency is 11.4 points better for Lebron in the same situation. That doesn't give us much information since it's team defensive efficiency rather than individual, but both Kobe and Lebron are the defensive trendsetters for their respective teams.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TakaraJinRoh said:


> No sir. No implications about the latter part of your statement. I was just merely inferring that at the grandest scheme of things, Lebron's efficiency is not much significant than Kobe's when his team is not winning more. People can say that Kobe's lakers are better which is true and undeniable but if we are speaking relatively of clutch situations, which the main point is to close games, then I cant see why Lebron gets a much signifcant nod over Kobe.


Since Kobe's team is better, wouldn't it stand to reason that he would be more efficient than Lebron in the clutch, since teams couldn't load up their defense on Kobe as well as they do Lebron? I'm just trying to follow your logic.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TakaraJinRoh said:


> No sir. No implications about the latter part of your statement. I was just merely inferring that at the grandest scheme of things, Lebron's efficiency is not much significant than Kobe's when his team is not winning more. People can say that Kobe's lakers are better which is true and undeniable but if we are speaking relatively of clutch situations, which the main point is to close games, then I cant see why Lebron gets a much signifcant nod over Kobe.


Well maybe I can give you some information to supplement this then.

In close games that come down to crunch time (i.e. excluding blowouts), here is the win% of each team:

Cavs: 73.5%
Lakers: 73.9%

So despite the Lakers' obvious talent advantage, the Cavs win just as high of a percentage of their games when it comes down to crunch time. So really, asking why Lebron isn't winning more in the clutch is overlooking the fact that he's actually winning just as often as Kobe in the clutch, despite being on a worse team.

Heck, Lebron always tells his teammates: "Just try to keep in close going into the 4th quarter, and I'll win the game for us". And he usually does.


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



kflo said:


> which means you believe he's just as skilled a defender as kobe. and i'd question whether that's true yet. even when he's focussed. not that he doesn't have a strength and length advantage.


This answer goes into the maybe pile. I, for one thinks Lebron has vastly improved on his defense. There were talks about that being a fluke when numbers showed that he was a capable one in the playoffs, but that trend carried over this year as well, which makes him I guess a bonafide good defender.



I still dont know if he's in the same breathe as Kobe defensively, but some fans thinks so, and you cant really dispute that without any concrete proof.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> On what basis would you question it though?


hmmmm, watching them play?


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



kflo said:


> which means you believe he's just as skilled a defender as kobe. and i'd question whether that's true yet. even when he's focussed. not that he doesn't have a strength and length advantage.


Well this is what the debate usually devolves to with Lebron and Kobe, isn't it? A question of skill vs. production.

On offense, people say Kobe is better because he's 'more skilled', despite the fact that he doesn't put up the same production Lebron does. So if you are the type of person who would say that, then maybe you would think the same on defense.

But the fact is, whether he's got all the defensive 'skill' as Kobe that you refer to, the results are still there. He manages to shut people down in the 4th. Now whether it's because he's executing with precision footwork and impeccable form on defense or he's just so ugly that the offensive player doesn't even want to go near him, I don't know. Don't really care frankly, as long as he's getting the job done.

If you're asking whether he can achieve the same results as Kobe on defense when they're both focused, I would say absolutely. I've been watching him do it all year.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Since Kobe's team is better, wouldn't it stand to reason that he would be more efficient than Lebron in the clutch, since teams couldn't load up their defense on Kobe as well as they do Lebron? I'm just trying to follow your logic.


You cant follow my logic because I try to involve clutch situations on both ends of the floor. You're strictly basing yours on offense.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TakaraJinRoh said:


> This answer goes into the maybe pile. I, for one thinks Lebron has vastly improved on his defense. There were talks about that being a fluke when numbers showed that he was a capable one in the playoffs, but that trend carried over this year as well, which makes him I guess a bonafide good defender.
> 
> 
> 
> I still dont know if he's in the same breathe as Kobe defensively, but some fans thinks so, and you cant really dispute that without any concrete proof.


i think lebron has played excellent defense this year and has really improved as an on-ball defender, and now does it very well. i think kobe currently does it better.


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> If you're asking whether he can achieve the same results as Kobe on defense when they're both focused, I would say absolutely. I've been watching him do it all year.


He sure can. But. not as consistent as Kobe though...


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



kflo said:


> i think lebron has played excellent defense this year and has really improved as an on-ball defender, and now does it very well. * i think kobe currently does it better*.


Exactly my point. But we both know arguing defense against Lebron fans is an endless and futile debate. Not because they cant make a good case, but its more on there's really no incriminating evidence (stats) that will prove one is slightly inferior to the other.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TakaraJinRoh said:


> He sure can. But. not as consistent as Kobe though...


I'm talking in the clutch. Maybe throughout the rest of the game, Kobe stays more focused on defense, but during clutch situations, Lebron is as consistent as anyone. I haven't seen him get lit up yet this year.

Which games are you thinking of this year when Lebron didn't get it done defensively? Maybe I can remember some specifics about each one...


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Well this is what the debate usually devolves to with Lebron and Kobe, isn't it? A question of skill vs. production.
> 
> On offense, people say Kobe is better because he's 'more skilled', despite the fact that he doesn't put up the same production Lebron does. So if you are the type of person who would say that, then maybe you would think the same on defense.
> 
> ...


i wouldn't call it skill vs production. i'd call it effectiveness vs effectiveness. individual production is part of the equation in assessing effectiveness, but there are other parts of effectiveness harder to measure at the individual level. the production of their teammates, and the overall effectiveness of the team, are in part a function of their individual effectiveness as well. simply not possible to resolve, as each has advantages to support their case.


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> I'm talking in the clutch. Maybe throughout the rest of the game, Kobe stays more focused on defense, but during clutch situations, Lebron is as consistent as anyone. I haven't seen him get lit up yet this year.
> 
> Which games are you thinking of this year when Lebron didn't get it done defensively? Maybe I can remember some specifics about each one...


Again, we have to agree to disagree. When it comes to whose better defensively between Kobe or Lebron.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



kflo said:


> i wouldn't call it skill vs production. i'd call it effectiveness vs effectiveness. individual production is part of the equation in assessing effectiveness, but there are other parts of effectiveness harder to measure at the individual level. the production of their teammates, and the overall effectiveness of the team, are in part a function of their individual effectiveness as well. simply not possible to resolve, as each has advantages to support their case.


I'll agree with this. 

If you mean effectiveness vs. effectiveness individually on defense, I would say they're both equal in clutch situations. But of course that's just my eyes and people will dismiss me as biased as they wish.

All I have to go by is the feeling as a fan, that if the other team has a star that is going to be dangerous in the clutch, we can put Lebron on him and he will get shut down. It's happened numerous times this year. Lebron has caused guys like Pierce, Kobe, Brandon Roy, Michael Redd to have miserable 4th quarters because of his pressure. And those are just the games I can think of off the top of my head in this minute here. 

It's hard for me to get a sense of where people are coming from because I'm not sure which Cavs' games they've watched this year.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



kflo said:


> i wouldn't call it skill vs production. i'd call it effectiveness vs effectiveness. individual production is part of the equation in assessing effectiveness, but there are other parts of effectiveness harder to measure at the individual level. the production of their teammates, and the overall effectiveness of the team, are in part a function of their individual effectiveness as well. simply not possible to resolve, as each has advantages to support their case.


Yes.


And this is why im more than willing to give Kobe my vote for MVP, if it only counts. Kobe's spectacular play this year has made me such a fan and believer. Ive always viewed him as a guy who can score but would never get it until he retires. But some of the most important intangible qualities of a leader has manifested in his game.



Kobe has shown he can win a lot of games and bring his team into contention, so as long as he has capable and dedicated teammates. He was winning with Bynum and now he's doing the same with Pau.


----------



## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Power_Ballin said:


> I dont know how people on here dont recognize that Kobe is clearly the better player. Yes, 'Bron is a physical beast but other than slashing and maybe finihing in transition, there is nothing that he gives u that Kobe doesn't do better. Kobe has all the intangibles you could ask for in a player..... Take off your hater-shades.


Lebron can get to the hoop consistantly and generate points. Lebron uses a combination of power and speed to get to the rim. 
Kobe is a better shooter and has more of a finess game in terms of getting to the rim, so his scoring should not be as consistant, but it is because of his shooting and the fact that he gets so many shots. 
Personally, I'd take lebron, although kobe has better intangibles. Kobe's game is based a lot on his confidence. Not to say he isn't a great athlete and basketball player, but if his confidence started to slip, he would not be nearly as good. Lebron could be effective no matter what. Lebron would be a lot better if his team had more offense. Look at the olympic team with lebron playing basically shooting guard. He is scary going to the basket, which is really the most important thing.


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



mo76 said:


> Kobe's game is based a lot on his confidence. Not to say he isn't a great athlete and basketball player, but if his confidence started to slip, he would not be nearly as good


And this is what puts Kobe above and beyond. His mental aspect of the game is second to none in this league right now. It seems like the more people doubt him,criticizes him and hates him the more he gets better in game situations.


Thats a mark of a warrior...a true champion.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Wow. I do sound like AJ23 with that post ^


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TakaraJinRoh said:


> Wow. I do sound like AJ23 with that post ^


Dear god... you might want to get that checked out.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



TakaraJinRoh said:


> And this is what puts Kobe above and beyond. His mental aspect of the game is second to none in this league right now. It seems like the more people doubt him,criticizes him and hates him the more he gets better in game situations.
> 
> 
> Thats a mark of a warrior...a true champion.


Lebron is no slouch mentally either. Especially this year and in last year's playoffs. He likes to downplay it publically, but he has the killer instinct. And he may actually exude more arrogance on the floor than even Kobe. Whether he is at home or on the road, he plays the game like it's his living room.

He's actually a lot more animated of a leader than Kobe as well. Lebron yells at people and fans. Talks trash to other superstars constantly. And then backs it all up(which is why he does it, to put more pressure on himself). 

I'd love to see these two go at it in the Finals. Because I think Lebron has caught up with Kobe mentally, but he has the extra arrogance of youth. He believes he is invincible and can do anything right now. On either end of the floor. It would be interesting to see how they played each other. Because right now, when they play each other, Lebron seems to be the one with the edge to his game.


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Lebron is no slouch mentally either. Especially this year and in last year's playoffs. He likes to downplay it publically, but he has the killer instinct. And he may actually exude more arrogance on the floor than even Kobe. Whether he is at home or on the road, he plays the game like it's his living room.
> 
> He's actually a lot more animated of a leader than Kobe as well. Lebron yells at people and fans. Talks trash to other superstars constantly. And then backs it all up(which is why he does it, to put more pressure on himself).
> 
> I'd love to see these two go at it in the Finals. Because I think Lebron has caught up with Kobe mentally, but he has the extra arrogance of youth. He believes he is invincible and can do anything right now. On either end of the floor. It would be interesting to see how they played each other. Because right now, when they play each other, Lebron seems to be the one with the edge to his game.



Hahaha. Believe me. I know Lebron is up there with Kobe in the mental aspect of the game. Everytime you beat the Pistons and advance to the FInals with the rag tag group that he had along with the numerous takeovers he has done for Cleveland this year, his heart truly belongs amoing the greatest.


I was just mocking AJ23. all in good fun


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



mo76 said:


> Lebron can get to the hoop consistantly and generate points. Lebron uses a combination of power and speed to get to the rim.
> Kobe is a better shooter and has more of a finess game in terms of getting to the rim, so his scoring should not be as consistant, but it is because of his shooting and the fact that he gets so many shots.
> Personally, I'd take lebron, although kobe has better intangibles. Kobe's game is based a lot on his confidence. Not to say he isn't a great athlete and basketball player, but if his confidence started to slip, he would not be nearly as good. Lebron could be effective no matter what. Lebron would be a lot better if his team had more offense. Look at the olympic team with lebron playing basically shooting guard. He is scary going to the basket, which is really the most important thing.


The Olympic Team? In FIBA '06 LeBron actually played like garbage.....he played better in '07, but still Melo was the one carrying both those teams, not LeBron.....i kno this cuz i actually watched.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

The +/- numbers are interesting. Lebron leads pretty signfiicantly in net +/-. Net +/- is probably stacked in Lebron's favor because his teammates aren't as good as Kobes.

Using adjusted +/- to take quality of teammates into account (it doesn't do it perfectly), Lebron maintains a lead but it's much smaller over Kobe. The Std. Error though seems to suggest that Lebron's numbers are a bit more stable. I guess this isn't surprising either as I think Lebron is a much steadier player in terms of production while Kobe tends to put up more explosive numbers

<table align="center" border="0"><tbody><tr><td class="pageheading"> Top Players </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center"> Data through March 3, 2008 from the 2007-2008 season. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="raw" align="center"> *Top 10 Players, minimum Top 25% in minutes (1,539.43 minutes) * Expanded list </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <table class="datatable" align="center" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr class="datatableheaderrow"> <th class="tableheaderspacercell" colspan="4"> </th> <th class="tableheadercell" colspan="2">Adj. Plus-Minus</th> <th class="tableheaderspacercell"> </th> <th class="tableheadercell" colspan="3">Overall Rtg</th> <th class="tableheaderspacercell"> </th> <th class="tableheadercell" colspan="3">Off Rtg</th> <th class="tableheaderspacercell"> </th> <th class="tableheadercell" colspan="3">Def Rtg</th> <th class="tableheaderspacercell"> </th> <th class="tableheadercell" colspan="3">OReb Rate</th> <th class="tableheaderspacercell"> </th> <th class="tableheadercell" colspan="3">DReb Rate</th> </tr> <tr class="datatableheaderrow"> <th class="tableheaderfirstcell"> Teams </th> <th class="tableheader2ndcell2ndrow"> Player </th> <th class="tableheader2ndcell2ndrow"> Min </th> <th class="tableheaderspacercell"> </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> +/-







</th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> StdErr </th> <th class="tableheaderspacercell"> </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> On </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> Off </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> Net </th> <th class="tableheaderspacercell"> </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> On </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> Off </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow">  Net </th> <th class="tableheaderspacercell"> </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> On </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> Off </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> Net </th> <th class="tableheaderspacercell"> </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> On </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> Off </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> Net </th> <th class="tableheaderspacercell"> </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> On </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> Off </th> <th class="tableheadercell2ndrow"> Net </th> </tr> <tr><td class="datatablefirstdatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">WAS</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">Jamison, Antawn</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">2,308.90</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">15.56</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">6.44</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">3.59</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-15.58</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">19.18</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">109.86</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">95.24</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">14.62</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">106.27</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">110.83</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">-4.56</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">32.4%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">26.2%</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">6.2%</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">71.8%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">68.5%</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">3.4%</td></tr> <tr><td class="datatablefirstdatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">CLE</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">James, LeBron</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">2,189.12</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">15.04</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">4.83</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">3.67</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-13.30</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">16.97</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">109.03</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">94.39</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">14.65</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">105.37</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">107.69</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">-2.32</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">31.7%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">31.3%</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">0.5%</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">73.5%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">71.5%</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">2.0%</td></tr> <tr><td class="datatablefirstdatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">LAL</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">Bryant, Kobe</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">2,302.08</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">14.69</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">6.29</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">9.75</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-2.60</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">12.35</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">112.87</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">103.91</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">8.96</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">103.12</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">106.51</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">-3.40</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">28.2%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">28.2%</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-0.0%</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">72.0%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">69.0%</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">3.0%</td></tr> <tr><td class="datatablefirstdatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">BOS</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">Pierce, Paul</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">2,195.18</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">13.04</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">5.86</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">11.97</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">5.79</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">6.18</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">110.32</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">105.26</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">5.06</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">98.35</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">99.48</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">-1.12</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">28.5%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">26.8%</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">1.7%</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">72.3%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">68.7%</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">3.6%</td></tr> <tr><td class="datatablefirstdatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">NOH</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">Stojakovic, Peja</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">1,832.20</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">12.27</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">6.55</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">9.05</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-0.42</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">9.47</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">114.14</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">102.35</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">11.80</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">105.09</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">102.77</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">2.33</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">28.3%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">30.0%</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-1.7%</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">74.2%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">72.0%</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">2.2%</td></tr> <tr><td class="datatablefirstdatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">ORL</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">Howard, Dwight</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">2,363.40</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">12.12</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">13.62</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">6.10</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-4.58</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">10.68</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">113.36</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">99.35</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">14.01</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">107.27</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">103.93</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">3.34</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">26.5%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">27.5%</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-1.1%</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">72.8%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">69.5%</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">3.3%</td></tr> <tr><td class="datatablefirstdatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">TOR</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">Bosh, Chris</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">1,865.72</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">11.72</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">5.28</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">8.32</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-2.29</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">10.61</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">113.53</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">105.08</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">8.45</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">105.21</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">107.37</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">-2.16</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">26.1%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">26.1%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">0.0%</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">71.9%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">71.8%</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">0.0%</td></tr> <tr><td class="datatablefirstdatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">DAL</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">Nowitzki, Dirk</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">2,256.13</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">11.62</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">5.98</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">8.03</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-8.61</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">16.65</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">113.37</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">97.94</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">15.43</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">105.33</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">106.55</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">-1.22</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">28.7%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">29.3%</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-0.6%</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">72.6%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">73.0%</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-0.4%</td></tr> <tr><td class="datatablefirstdatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">NYK</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">Crawford, Jamal</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">2,454.88</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">11.44</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">6.09</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-6.44</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-10.95</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">4.52</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">104.59</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">96.42</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">8.17</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">111.03</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">107.37</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">3.66</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">30.4%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">35.1%</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-4.7%</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">70.6%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">68.7%</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">1.9%</td></tr> <tr><td class="datatablefirstdatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">SAC</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center" nowrap="nowrap">Miller, Brad</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">2,062.17</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">11.29</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">5.67</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">1.63</td><td class="rawnegpm" align="center">-12.48</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">14.11</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">109.66</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">98.51</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">11.15</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">108.03</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">110.99</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">-2.96</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">29.6%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">26.5%</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">3.1%</td><td class="datatablespacercellraw"> </td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">71.4%</td><td class="datatabledatacellraw" align="center">67.7%</td><td class="rawpospm" align="center">3.7%</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>
http://basketballvalue.com/index.php


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Power_Ballin said:


> The Olympic Team? In FIBA '06 LeBron actually played like garbage.....he played better in '07, but still Melo was the one carrying both those teams, not LeBron.....i kno this cuz i actually watched.


Tournament of the Americas? Lebron and JKidd were running **** on that team.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Pioneer10 said:


> The +/- numbers are interesting. Lebron leads pretty signfiicantly in net +/-. Net +/- is probably stacked in Lebron's favor because his teammates aren't as good as Kobes.
> 
> Using adjusted +/- to take quality of teammates into account (it doesn't do it perfectly), Lebron maintains a lead but it's much smaller over Kobe. The Std. Error though seems to suggest that Lebron's numbers are a bit more stable. I guess this isn't surprising either as I think Lebron is a much steadier player in terms of production while Kobe tends to put up more explosive numbers
> 
> ...


Wow. Jamal Crawford! More evidence about his season. Look at the company he's in.


----------



## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

kobe!


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Tournament of the Americas? Lebron and JKidd were running **** on that team.


Jason Kidd didn't play, and the team won the bronze medal. Nobody was running ****.

EDIT: Unless you're talking about 2007, in which case, everyone on Team USA was running ****. But since you quoted Power_Ballin, I was a little confused since he also mentioned the 2006 FIBA Championship.


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Lebron is no slouch mentally either. Especially this year and in last year's playoffs. He likes to downplay it publically, but he has the killer instinct. And he may actually exude more arrogance on the floor than even Kobe. Whether he is at home or on the road, he plays the game like it's his living room.
> 
> He's actually a lot more animated of a leader than Kobe as well. *Lebron yells at people and fans*. Talks trash to other superstars constantly. And then backs it all up(which is why he does it, to put more pressure on himself).


^^ just for the fun of it, you should somehow get the 4th quarter of Lakers yesterday game. 5 minutes to go and 5 points down with Kobe scorless in the 4th, a fan from the public yelled on a no-call for Kobe:"Does this remind you of Colorado?"

He then proceeded to score 17 points, shut Martin down and looked like he was going to kill someone / that fan with his look. It was great, he even talked trash after the game to presumably the same person in the crowd. I bet that guy couldn't go to sleep yesterday knowing what his comments had unleashed . It somewhat reminded me of Cle @ Tor when Bosh's girl (or sister?) talked some trash to LeBron and he snapped and brought the Cavs to a victory. 

Or another recent occasion; when Pryzbilla was hacking him all the time, they exchanged some mean looks and then on the x-th trip to the foul line after a hard foul, he just stood at the FT line and it was pretty visible that he was touting Joel and saying:"I ****ing love it... I ****ing love it." Yes, he can be an arrogant ***** sometimes, but damn it, it's hard to hate him for it... you just kind of get the feeling of the team's invincibility when he's like that. Don't know, maybe it's just me .

I seriously believe that these two have something else than blood flowing through their veins .


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Plastic Man said:


> ^^ just for the fun of it, you should somehow get the 4th quarter of Lakers yesterday game. 5 minutes to go and 5 points down with Kobe scorless in the 4th, a fan from the public yelled on a no-call for Kobe:"Does this remind you of Colorado?"


lol


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> Jason Kidd didn't play, and the team won the bronze medal. Nobody was running ****.
> 
> EDIT: Unless you're talking about 2007, in which case, everyone on Team USA was running ****. But since you quoted Power_Ballin, I was a little confused since he also mentioned the 2006 FIBA Championship.


I think she was just talkin bout last years team, but i was talkin bout both in response to mo76. He said Bron could be effective no matter what and pointed to the olympic team. I said Bron played terrible in '06, which he did and then Future responded to me....In '06 Bron couldn't hit a clutch shot if his life depended on it, and that's just being real....Melo was really the only consistent one on that team, with exception to maybe wade. In '07, Bron did improve tho and that was with the addition of Kobe, Kidd, etc, when he was shooting 3's at 62%. All i basically said tho was that between both years tho, Melo played more consistently then both of them and carried both teams, at least moreso the Bron did imo and i didnt undertand what his point was with that reference. Last year tho it was more of a team effort tho then anybody realy runnin sh!t individually.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Plastic Man said:


> ^^ just for the fun of it, you should somehow get the 4th quarter of Lakers yesterday game. 5 minutes to go and 5 points down with Kobe scorless in the 4th, a fan from the public yelled on a no-call for Kobe:"Does this remind you of Colorado?"
> 
> He then proceeded to score 17 points, shut Martin down and looked like he was going to kill someone / that fan with his look. It was great, he even talked trash after the game to presumably the same person in the crowd. I bet that guy couldn't go to sleep yesterday knowing what his comments had unleashed . It somewhat reminded me of Cle @ Tor when Bosh's girl (or sister?) talked some trash to LeBron and he snapped and brought the Cavs to a victory.
> 
> ...


GOOD POST!


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> Jason Kidd didn't play, and the team won the bronze medal. Nobody was running ****.
> 
> EDIT: Unless you're talking about 2007, in which case, everyone on Team USA was running ****. But since you quoted Power_Ballin, I was a little confused since he also mentioned the 2006 FIBA Championship.


Uh...I was talking about the tournament of americas. Which is why I said Tournament of Americas. But even if I didn't the lack of Jason Kidd on those other teams should have tipped you off. Sheesh.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Plastic Man said:


> ^^ just for the fun of it, you should somehow get the 4th quarter of Lakers yesterday game. 5 minutes to go and 5 points down with Kobe scorless in the 4th, a fan from the public yelled on a no-call for Kobe:"Does this remind you of Colorado?"
> 
> He then proceeded to score 17 points, shut Martin down and looked like he was going to kill someone / that fan with his look. It was great, he even talked trash after the game to presumably the same person in the crowd. I bet that guy couldn't go to sleep yesterday knowing what his comments had unleashed . It somewhat reminded me of Cle @ Tor when Bosh's girl (or sister?) talked some trash to LeBron and he snapped and brought the Cavs to a victory.
> 
> ...


Haha does anyone have a youtube of that yet?

I really do hope they get to play each other in the finals. It would be a show for everyone.

I think they are both the best player in the league, but they both dominate in slightly diffrent but equally exciting ways. You can't really compare them because of how diffrently they do play the game, even though their results are similar.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

When it comes down to it the only people I see touting Lebron are people who watch him every night. That's understandable, and I'm not putting any negative connotations on your fandom, but I think it's possible you're sentimentality is a factor in your decisions. 

I tend to overrate players on the Mavericks and Wizards because I have a lot of access to them, so it's no biggie.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Dre™ said:


> When it comes down to it the only people I see touting Lebron are people who watch him every night. That's understandable, and I'm not putting any negative connotations on your fandom, but I think it's possible you're sentimentality is a factor in your decisions.
> 
> I tend to overrate players on the Mavericks and Wizards because I have a lot of access to them, so it's no biggie.


That's why I try to use every statistic I can think of to supplement my knowledge. Nobody watches all the games of everyone, but I've at least seen a lot of Lakers games and Cavs games this year.

Numbers don't lie. They don't tell the whole story of course, but they aren't influenced by sentiment. That's how I can state my opinions with confidence. I have objective evidence on my side to back me up.

And quite frankly, if you've been paying attention to the kind of season he's been having, the statements in this thread have not been overrating him.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

I have a question, since LeBron's performance will definitely cause more of a debate for MVP.

Has there ever been co-MVPs in the regular season? And if not, do you think that could potentially happen? I know we each have our own opinions on who the MVP is and who the best player is, etc. But is this possible?


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> I have a question, since LeBron's performance will definitely cause more of a debate for MVP.
> 
> Has there ever been co-MVPs in the regular season? And if not, do you think that could potentially happen? I know we each have our own opinions on who the MVP is and who the best player is, etc. But is this possible?


I don't think it's happened, or at least I can't think of any instance off the top of my head.

I think it should have happened in 05/06 though.


----------



## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

CO MVPS! a solutioN!


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

They should give co-MVP's this season because if not someone is getting screwed big-time.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

By the way, since it seems everyone has forgotten about Chris Paul, his stat line tonight was 23 points and 18 assists. Just another day at the office.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Naw, there has to be a winner.

Co-MVP's don't do it for me. Somebody always gets shafted regardless, this year shouldn't be any different


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

What was 05-06, Shaq and Nash?


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



SamTheMan67; said:


> CO MVPS! a solutioN!


how 'bout EAST and WEST mvp's like mlb.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Dre™ said:


> What was 05-06, Shaq and Nash?


No, that was 04-05. 05-06 was the second year Nash won it.

Incidentally, he shouldn't have been one of the co-MVPs, in my opinion.


----------



## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

umm there's never been a Co-MVP in the history of the NBA. what are you talkin about


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> I have a question
> 
> Has there ever been co-MVPs in the regular season? And if not, do you think that could potentially happen? I know we each have our own opinions on who the MVP is and who the best player is, etc. But is this possible?


:lol:

wth is next co-nba champions? should we also merge nba and wnba since sharing seems like a great idea nowadays. how about clone a cat and dog, a parrot and bat,tiger and shark for those people who cant seem to decide which pet is better.


dude, my boy basel. thats like a ballscientitis question right there


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DuMa said:


> umm there's never been a Co-MVP in the history of the NBA. what are you talkin about


I never said there was; I was asking if it had ever happened.



aznzen said:


> :lol:
> 
> wth is next co-nba champions? should we also merge nba and wnba since sharing seems like a great idea nowadays. how about clone a cat and dog, a parrot and bat,tiger and shark for those people who cant seem to decide which pet is better.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying it should happen; I'm asking if it _could_ happen. And I'm not your boy.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

really lebron should not get it plain and simple kobe is leading the best team in the west
lebron is leading the what 4th 3rd best team IN THE EAST
its really been stated alot already but people cant seem to get it through their heads


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



> Or another recent occasion; when Pryzbilla was hacking him all the time, they exchanged some mean looks and then on the x-th trip to the foul line after a hard foul, he just stood at the FT line and it was pretty visible that he was touting Joel and saying:"I ****ing love it... I ****ing love it." Yes, he can be an arrogant ***** sometimes, but damn it, it's hard to hate him for it... you just kind of get the feeling of the team's invincibility when he's like that. Don't know, maybe it's just me


They lost that game...


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

^^ No, really? I mean it was late when I was watching it, but I could've sworn that they won.

What is your point?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

There's nothing to indicate that Lebron would play worse if he had a team in the West.
Put him on the Trailblazers instead of Roy, and he can probably win the conference.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Lebron is better than kobe. kobe's best attribute is his scoring. lebron has a better career scoring average...will win the scoring title this year at age 23...while better than kobe in every other aspect of the game. not by far...but still better.


----------



## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Kobe does things that Lebron will never be able to do in his career. His degree of difficulty shots, his offensive explosions where he's just locked in and nothing can stop him from scoring. Those are things I don't see Lebron ever having in his career. And they definitely leave quite an impression on people (including me).
> 
> Maybe that's why so many people immediately think of Kobe when talking about the best player. He's got some really memorable performances and shots. This especially hurts a guy like Duncan, who just gets the job done with very few extremely memorable performances.


lay off the herbal bro...lebron doesnt have offensive outbursts where he seems unstoppable??? what planet were u on for game 5? sorry for coming across the way i am, but im baffled as to how ppl make kobe out to be some guy who can just do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and no one is on his level. he isnt even top 3 ACTIVE player with highest scoring average for his career. lebron has better career averages than kobe despite being a lot younger and not in his prime yet. be serious guys...dont create an aura for kobe that isnt real. he is a great player. but not the best in the NBA. if there are players that have a higher output than your best asset...(kobe's scoring)...you are not the best player in teh NBA. not only is lebron the leading scorer, but he rebounds like a pf, and passes like a pg.


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



duncan2k5 said:


> sorry for coming across the way i am, but im baffled as to how ppl make kobe out to be some guy who can just do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and no one is on his level. he isnt even top 3 ACTIVE player with highest scoring average for his career. lebron has better career averages than kobe despite being a lot younger and not in his prime yet. be serious guys...


I really do wonder why Bryant is only at about 25 ppg for his career. Hm, hm, what could possibly be the cause of this. If there were only some sort of statistics or videos available of that time when he didn't score as much, I could find an answer...


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Yeah, career scoring averages don't mean very much. Especially because they tend to underrate players coming out of high school or players who saw limited minutes early in their careers.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Yeah, career scoring averages don't mean very much. Especially because they tend to underrate players coming out of high school or players who saw limited minutes early in their careers.


Though Lebron's career scoring average is kind of impressive because he did play so well coming out of high school. I think he'll retire with the highest career scoring average of players who made the jump from high school to the pros(since there isn't anyone coming after him).


----------



## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Power_Ballin said:


> The Olympic Team? In FIBA '06 LeBron actually played like garbage.....he played better in '07, but still Melo was the one carrying both those teams, not LeBron.....i kno this cuz i actually watched.


I was refering to the one this summer. Not the actual olympics. Sorry, when i see nba players playing on an international court, I just call it "olympics", lol.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Plastic Man said:


> ^^ No, really? I mean it was late when I was watching it, but I could've sworn that they won.
> 
> What is your point?


You said you feel like the team is invincible when Kobe gets like that. I was just pointing out that they lost in the example you used.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

I think Lebron is close enough to Kobe as a scorer, that it's not a deciding factor in Kobe's favor.


----------



## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Hibachi! said:


> You said you feel like the team is invincible when Kobe gets like that. I was just pointing out that they lost in the example you used.


Oh, okay. Yeah, it was a bummer. The game did seem winnable at that point though.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



duncan2k5 said:


> Lebron is better than kobe. kobe's best attribute is his scoring. lebron has a better career scoring average...will win the scoring title this year at age 23...*while better than kobe in every other aspect of the game.* not by far...but still better.


And how do u reach that conclusion.....? Cuz from watchin the two, i see it differently. Other then slashing, rebounding, and just straight up size, i dont see what he brings that is better then Kobe. Kobe brings the all-around game that everybody wants in a player. His awareness and efficiency cant be matched by anybody in the league when he's at his best and he has been at his best a lot lately. 'Bron is good but dont get it twisted.......Kobe is the best player in the league, 'Bron second, Duncan is third.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> I think Lebron is close enough to Kobe as a scorer, that it's not a deciding factor in Kobe's favor.


As explained to you before, with similar roles Bryant was a clearly superior scorer. i.e. LeBron is averaging 30.6 on 56.8% TS% this season, while Bryant averaged 35.4 ppg on 58% TS% with similarly bad teammates to the ones LeBron has had this season. Even despite the massive difference in touches and roles this season (LeBron more, Bryant less), their per minute scoring averages are nearly identical (29.5 to 30.2 per 40), with Kobe ahead in scoring efficiency 57.9% to 56.8% TS%.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



EHL said:


> Even despite the massive difference in touches and roles this season (LeBron more, Bryant less), their per minute scoring averages are nearly identical (29.5 to 30.2 per 40), with Kobe ahead in scoring efficiency 57.9% to 56.8% TS%.


Massively diffrent roles? What's Kobe's role that's massively different from Lebron's this year? He's not taking as many shots? He's playing within a team concept? He's the playmaker for his team? Sounds like they are playing the exact same roles to me. And their scoring numbers attest to that and back up what I said as far as Kobe not being significantly better at scoring than Lebron. At least not so much that it's a deciding factor between the two players. Both are 30ppg type of scorers. At best you're just comparing great to great in terms of scoring. And any diffrence is more than made up for by Lebron's superiority in passing and rebounding.

Sorry, but they are both pretty much the same cup of greatness right now.


----------



## Kaas (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Yes they're both the primary options and both are the primary facilitators as well. They might both be the "top dog" of their team on offense, but what EHL was trying to get at was the the difference in the offenses their teams run. Kobe plays in the triangle. Very structured, with his teammates having a role and getting their touches to set up scoring opportunities. Sure it can turn into a "get the ball into Kobe's hands and let him work his magic", but that's when things for everyone else are going bad or when things for Kobe are going really well. Mike Brown's entire offense is pretty much non-stop "get the ball into Lebron's hands and let him work his magic". The percentage each player has the ball on offense easily favors Lebron. I don't have numbers to back it up, but I do have eyes.

This is not a knock on either player nor is it a compliment. Both players do what their teams ask them to do and they do it as close to perfection as you can get. 


Can't we just enjoy watching two of the all-time greats instead of arguing which one is better? Thank god message boards didn't exist during the Magic and Bird days.


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Kaas said:


> Yes they're both the primary options and both are the primary facilitators as well. They might both be the "top dog" of their team on offense, but what EHL was trying to get at was the the difference in the offenses their teams run. Kobe plays in the triangle. Very structured, with his teammates having a role and getting their touches to set up scoring opportunities. Sure it can turn into a "get the ball into Kobe's hands and let him work his magic", but that's when things for everyone else are going bad or when things for Kobe are going really well. Mike Brown's entire offense is pretty much non-stop "get the ball into Lebron's hands and let him work his magic". The percentage each player has the ball on offense easily favors Lebron. I don't have numbers to back it up, but I do have eyes.
> 
> This is not a knock on either player nor is it a compliment. Both players do what their teams ask them to do and they do it as close to perfection as you can get.
> 
> ...


So you are saying Kobe is better? :biggrin:



DaRizzle said:


> I wanna see this thread go over 100 pages


21% there...keep it up guys...we will find the answer!!!


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Tmac is better than both of these BUMS


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Lebron is sooo over-rated


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Tmac is like toilet paper, toothpaste, and ur other basic aminities.....he's proven to be good.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Massively diffrent roles? What's Kobe's role that's massively different from Lebron's this year? He's not taking as many shots? He's playing within a team concept? He's the playmaker for his team? Sounds like they are playing the exact same roles to me. And their scoring numbers attest to that and back up what I said as far as Kobe not being significantly better at scoring than Lebron. At least not so much that it's a deciding factor between the two players. Both are 30ppg type of scorers. At best you're just comparing great to great in terms of scoring. And any diffrence is more than made up for by Lebron's superiority in passing and rebounding.
> 
> Sorry, but they are both pretty much the same cup of greatness right now.


As I alluded to and as *Kaas* touched on, their roles simply are not the same in terms of opportunties. LeBron is given the green light to create for himself or his teammates on a larger majority of possessions on Bryant, and it's not all that close. Controlling for other factors such as pace, LeBron is given more touches and opportunities to score the basketball than Bryant. This is plainly obvious from watching them play. I'm not sure what there is to argue there.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Kobe definitely doesn't have as much of a green light as Lebron anymore. 

For one, Phil Jackson isn't having it. You see how quick he got benched for taking that bad shot during the Cavs game a month or so ago? 

Also, with the team he has now he gets his points within the flow of the offense. Lebron _is_ the offense in Cleveland.

I have no idea what I'm arguing in the context of the larger debate, I'm just responding to the posts I saw about both of their roles.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Dre™;5347607 said:


> Kobe definitely doesn't have as much of a green light as Lebron anymore.
> 
> For one, Phil Jackson isn't having it. You see how quick he got benched for taking that bad shot during the Cavs game a month or so ago?
> 
> ...




yeah. lebron's game reflects more of the Doug collins coached Bulls team with jordan. kobe obviously has always played with a team oriented one. i dont think kobe had a full license in a full year to takeover anytime he wants like lebron has the past 2-3 years, the only exception for kobe was the 2005-06 season, and we all know how many record breaking numbers he accomplished.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

see im not a kobe hater


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Anyone else catch the Cavs vs. Bulls game tonight ?

Yeah that's what I thought. LeBron is a piece of dookie. What a joke he was tonight.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Basel57 said:


> I never said there was; I was asking if it had ever happened.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying it should happen; I'm asking if it _could_ happen. And I'm not your boy.


i never said ur my boy :azdaja:


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Anyone else catch the Cavs vs. Bulls game tonight ?
> 
> Yeah that's what I thought. LeBron is a piece of dookie. What a joke he was tonight.


The Bulls are back baby! :yay:


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Anyone else catch the Cavs vs. Bulls game tonight ?
> 
> Yeah that's what I thought. LeBron is a piece of dookie. What a joke he was tonight.


everyones entitled to bad game :whoknows:


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Anyone else catch the Cavs vs. Bulls game tonight ?
> 
> Yeah that's what I thought. LeBron is a piece of dookie. What a joke he was tonight.


Hatahhhh.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> The Bulls are back baby! :yay:


LOL, clearly they are capable to play well against the Cavs. Especially when LeBron is trying to showboat and score like crazy. I mean people would have had Kobes neck right now if he played like LeBron did tonight. But No LeBron is unselfish, and the better team player then Kobe and etc

I call BS LeBron was a joke tonight and he's a piece of dookie. Did you see all the guys LeBron hooked on the baseline. Thats a foul on any other guy in the league. LeBron gets a pass every time he runs his shoulder, and head full blast into the defender, and it's either a no call or a foul on the defender. By the rules it should be a charge. But no because it's mr hype Lebron.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> LOL, clearly they are capable to play well against the Cavs. Especially when LeBron is trying to showboat and score like crazy. I mean people would have had Kobes neck right now if he played like LeBron did tonight. But No LeBron is unselfish, and the better team player then Kobe and etc
> 
> I call BS LeBron was a joke tonight and he's a piece of dookie. Did you see all the guys LeBron hooked on the baseline. Thats a foul on any other guy in the league. LeBron gets a pass every time he runs his shoulder, and head full blast into the defender, and it's either a no call or a foul on the defender. By the rules it should be a charge. But no because it's mr hype Lebron.


lebron smells blood. he wanst that mvp award.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

By the way Cavs fans, I thought your Cavs were clearly going to win 50 games this season. Uhh yeah sure.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Joakim Noah bust out this game. 20 boards. Next Marcus Camby man.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Hatahhhh.


HHayaaaaaaaaaaa


----------



## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> everyones entitled to bad game :whoknows:


co-sign, kobe was having a terrible game vs sacramento couple nights ago but picked it up in the 4th.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> By the way Cavs fans, I thought your Cavs were clearly going to win 50 games this season. Uhh yeah sure.


reg season hasnt even ended yet


check neg j/k


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> lebron smells blood. he wanst that mvp award.


Exactly, LeBron cares more about personal glory then he really cares about winning a championship. Its clearly whos he's not as mature as people try to make him out to be. And when the Celtics stomp the Cavs backside right out of the playoffs in the 2nd round. LeBron wont care caue he put up "nice stats".


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

39 points in 33 minutes qualifies you as dookie? Then on most nights everyone in the NBA is dookie. Why be a fan of basketball?


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Undefeated82 said:


> co-sign, kobe was having a terrible game vs sacramento couple nights ago but picked it up in the 4th.


exactly.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Exactly, LeBron cares more about personal glory then he really cares about winning a championship. Its clearly whos he's not as mature as people try to make him out to be. And when the Celtics stomp the Cavs backside right out of the playoffs in the 2nd round. LeBron wont care caue he put up "nice stats".


Yeah because the Celtics have done so well against the Cavs already. You're just playing yourself.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Exactly, LeBron cares more about personal glory then he really cares about winning a championship. Its clearly whos he's not as mature as people try to make him out to be. And when the Celtics stomp the Cavs backside right out of the playoffs in the 2nd round. LeBron wont care caue he put up "nice stats".


i have agree as well. lebron is known playing for achievements.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> 39 points in 33 minutes qualifies you as dookie? Then on most nights everyone in the NBA is dookie. Why be a fan of basketball?


Becasue LeBron gets an unfair advantage. If you give every single superstar the right to bull doze over the player guarding them, every superstar will average another 10 points If you let other superstars to have the advantage of hooking their defender on the baseline they will put up better numbers. Second thing is LeBron cares more about a show at this point in the season then he' does winning. Dont count on the Cavs getting past 45 wins this season. It wont happen.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> 39 points in 33 minutes qualifies you as dookie? Then on most nights everyone in the NBA is dookie. Why be a fan of basketball?


He should of scored 50 in this game and won it for the Cavs. But alas, he sucked it up. Pretty bad too. I could barely watch him crumble under the lock-down defense of Joakim Noah.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Yeah because the Celtics have done so well against the Cavs already. You're just playing yourself.


dudette

reg season domination doesnt mean playoff success.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Yeah because the Celtics have done so well against the Cavs already. You're just playing yourself.


Uhh.. shut up dumb ***, the Celtics just beat down your Cavs in their last meeting. LeBron aint ish.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Becasue LeBron gets an unfair advantage. If you give every single superstar the right to bull doze over the player guarding them, every superstar will average another 10 points If you let other superstars to have the advantage of hooking their defender on the baseline they will put up better numbers. Second thing is LeBron cares more about a show at this point in the season then he' does winning. Dont count on the Cavs getting past 45 wins this season. It wont happen.


great post man :clap:


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

LeBron was the chucker in this game not Gordon baby.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

gordon homers make me sick


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Becasue LeBron gets an unfair advantage. If you give every single superstar the right to bull doze over the player guarding them, every superstar will average another 10 points If you let other superstars to have the advantage of hooking their defender on the baseline they will put up better numbers.


Awwww. Is it unfair? Poor baby. Someone should call you a whambulance. Lebron should go to the line a lot more than he does. If he got all the calls Wade and Kobe got he'd get another 5 points per game.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

where's futrisxtens clark kent? (brandmane)


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Awwww. Is it unfair? Poor baby. Someone should call you a whambulance.


id take a whamburger whilke riding the whambulance pls.

kthxbye


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

LeBron banged out a whopping 2 for 8 from the 3 point line tonight...that really demonstrates a winning game plan by LeBron. Heck no! call it what it is. Kobes off the hook right now, and LeBron is going for MVP instead of playing smart basketball. LeBron is the new Chucker the rest of the way for the NBA season. Mark it down.


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Hey AJ23 while your on your little power trip riddle me this one, has Kobe ever had 50 points and 10 assists in the same game?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Awwww. Is it unfair? Poor baby. Someone should call you a whambulance. Lebron should go to the line a lot more than he does. If he got all the calls Wade and Kobe got he'd get another 5 points per game.


It's all good. We all know that LeBron will have an asterisk next to his name when it's all said, and done. The guy that could only get it done with his unfair advantage. And who knows maybe he takes steroids too. I mean after all Carmelo Anthony was bigger then LeBron in high school.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



bball2223 said:


> Hey AJ23 while your on your little power trip riddle me this one, has Kobe ever had 50 points and 10 assists in the same game?


Yeah cause we all know 50/10 equals GOAT 

Puzzle me this... Who's the third one? 

Stephen Marbury. Enough said.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



bball2223 said:


> Hey AJ23 while your on your little power trip riddle me this one, has Kobe ever had 50 points and 10 assists in the same game?


Thats dopey talk there. Come on little buddy, I guess you think Marbury is the greatest ever ? Since he put up those numbers too, and was more efficient then LeBron. Exactly enough with your dopey talk.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> LeBron banged out a whopping 2 for 8 from the 3 point line tonight...that really demonstrates a winning game plan by LeBron. Heck no! call it what it is. Kobes off the hook right now, and LeBron is going for MVP instead of playing smart basketball. LeBron is the new Chucker the rest of the way for the NBA season. Mark it down.


lol lebron fell in love with his three from last night's residue lol


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



bball2223 said:


> Hey AJ23 while your on your little power trip riddle me this one, has Kobe ever had 50 points and 10 assists in the same game?


Kobe has had a 50+pt 10+ reb game


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



bball2223 said:


> Hey AJ23 while your on your little power trip riddle me this one, has Kobe ever had 50 points and 10 assists in the same game?






liekomgj4ck said:


> Yeah cause we all know 50/10 equals GOAT
> 
> Puzzle me this... Who's the third one?
> 
> Stephen Marbury. Enough said.



:worthy:


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> Kobe has had a 50+pt 10+ reb game


Wait, didn't kobe have a 81 pointer?


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



aznzen said:


> :worthy:


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> Wait, didn't kobe have a 81 pointer?


:clap::worthy:


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

Well thought out rebuttals bball2223


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> Yeah cause we all know 50/10 equals GOAT
> 
> Puzzle me this... Who's the third one?
> 
> Stephen Marbury. Enough said.


Actually, five people have accomplished the feat.


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> Well thought out rebuttals bball2223


:cheers:


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*

By the way, folks, let's tone down the rhetoric here or the thread's getting locked.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> Well thought out rebuttals bball2223


Yeah, I can't argue smiley faces


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> It's all good. We all know that LeBron will have an asterisk next to his name when it's all said, and done. The guy that could only get it done with his unfair advantage. And who knows maybe he takes steroids too. I mean after all Carmelo Anthony was bigger then LeBron in high school.


<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OP4aMOFhm7M"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OP4aMOFhm7M" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Yeah Melo was soooo much bigger than Lebron in High School.

It's funny to watch these clips and realize Lebron is doing the exact same things he did in high school to NBA players. The game is too easy for him.


----------



## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

cavs go down by 20 plus and the final score wanst even an indicator of how bad the cavs got whooped.....but yeah its lebron, so it was his teammates fault


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

So we can pretty much deduct that Kobe is winning today?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OP4aMOFhm7M"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OP4aMOFhm7M" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
> 
> Yeah Melo was soooo much bigger than Lebron in High School.
> 
> It's funny to watch these clips and realize Lebron is doing the exact same things he did in high school to NBA players. The game is too easy for him.


And as you see at the end Melo was bigger then LeBron.

Also note Melo had the sickest dunk in that game.


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> And as you see at the end Melo was bigger then LeBron.
> 
> Also note Melo had the sickest dunk in that game.


Can we also note that the Lakers have sucked ever since Shaq left?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> And as you see at the end Melo was bigger then LeBron.



Hahahaha what!? He somehow grew over the course of the game?!
You also have to remember Melo's a senior in that game. Lebron is a junior. But I don't really think he's bigger.

Is it important that he is? I forget why we're arguing this point again. How did it come up?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Uhh someone changed the thread title. Nice going , must of been a LeBron fan. Since the World voted that Kobe is better then LeBron James.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



bball2223 said:


> Can we also note that the Lakers have sucked ever since Shaq left?


They have ? Hmm I guess making the playoffs in the West is sucking. Wow must be an eastern biased supporter.


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



bball2223 said:


> Can we also note that the Lakers have sucked ever since Shaq left?


Go play with Smush, Kwame, Walton, and Cook then take them to the playoffs in the west...then take a sip of..


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Hahahaha what!? He somehow grew over the course of the game?!
> You also have to remember Melo's a senior in that game. Lebron is a junior. But I don't really think he's bigger.
> 
> Is it important that he is? I forget why we're arguing this point again. How did it come up?


Umm..

Go to your eye doctor for one.

Second, the reason this was brought up is because LeBron may be the first NBA star that used the roids. Becasue we already know he get's an unfair advantage in the NBA by the way he can bulldoze over his opposition with out a foul being called against him. Even though if that was anybody else its a charge. So the steroids would just be fitting, LeBron was getting stuck in the butt with a needle to achieve a higher success. I mean it really wouldn't be that shocking in this day, and age, and especially considering who were talking about here.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Umm..
> 
> Go to your eye doctor for one.
> 
> Second, the reason this was brought up is because LeBron may be the first NBA star that used the roids. Becasue we already know he get's an unfair advantage in the NBA by the way he can bulldoze over his opposition with out a foul being called against him. Even though if that was anybody else its a charge. So the steroids would just be fitting, LeBron was getting stuck in the butt with a needle to achieve a higher success. I mean it really wouldn't be that shocking in this day, and age, and especially considering who were talking about here.


lol


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> Go play with Smush, Kwame, Walton, and Cook then take them to the playoffs in the west...then take a sip of..


Yeah because LeBron is playing with a bunch of all-stars. LeBron would kill to have Andrew Bynum, and Lamar Odom.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

23AJ said:


> Umm..
> 
> Go to your eye doctor for one.
> 
> Second, the reason this was brought up is because LeBron may be the first NBA star that used the roids. Becasue we already know he get's an unfair advantage in the NBA by the way he can bulldoze over his opposition with out a foul being called against him. Even though if that was anybody else its a charge. So the steroids would just be fitting, LeBron was getting stuck in the butt with a needle to achieve a higher success. I mean it really wouldn't be that shocking in this day, and age, and especially considering who were talking about here.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Umm..
> 
> Go to your eye doctor for one.
> 
> Second, the reason this was brought up is because LeBron may be the first NBA star that used the roids. Becasue we already know he get's an unfair advantage in the NBA by the way he can bulldoze over his opposition with out a foul being called against him. Even though if that was anybody else its a charge. So the steroids would just be fitting, LeBron was getting stuck in the butt with a needle to achieve a higher success. I mean it really wouldn't be that shocking in this day, and age, and especially considering who were talking about here.



:rofl2: what the ****? awesome post.

And you accuse Lebron of sticking needles up his butt? Come on it's Kobe we're talking about. Remember Colorado?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Umm..
> 
> Go to your eye doctor for one.
> 
> Second, the reason this was brought up is because LeBron may be the first NBA star that used the roids. Becasue we already know he get's an unfair advantage in the NBA by the way he can bulldoze over his opposition with out a foul being called against him. Even though if that was anybody else its a charge. So the steroids would just be fitting, LeBron was getting stuck in the butt with a needle to achieve a higher success. I mean it really wouldn't be that shocking in this day, and age, and especially considering who were talking about here.


Two things:
1. How old are you?
2. <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TaKLmrmAg84"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TaKLmrmAg84" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
If nobody in the NBA had been able to bulldoze like Lebron before, Kobe's hand wouldn't have any rings on it, and Charles Barkley wouldn't have an MVP. Welcome to the NBA. If you want a bunch of flop calls you better watch a different game.


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Umm..
> 
> Go to your eye doctor for one.
> 
> Second, the reason this was brought up is because LeBron may be the first NBA star that used the roids. Becasue we already know he get's an unfair advantage in the NBA by the way he can bulldoze over his opposition with out a foul being called against him. Even though if that was anybody else its a charge. So the steroids would just be fitting, LeBron was getting stuck in the butt with a needle to achieve a higher success. I mean it really wouldn't be that shocking in this day, and age, and especially considering who were talking about here.


So all Kobes titles should be stripped because Shaq bulldozed?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

And yes I do get that responding to 23AJ is like throwing marshmellows at the pygmy squirrels at the zoo. But I think it's fun to pretend that he's actually making reasonable points, and that there is actually some one out there whose perception is so skewed that they could actually realistically hold the views he posts on Lebron.

He's said before the only reason he hates Lebron is because Lebron plays in Cleveland and he hates Cleveland sports.


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



bball2223 said:


> Yeah because LeBron is playing with a bunch of all-stars. LeBron would kill to have Andrew Bynum, and Lamar Odom.


Bynum wasnt playing and Odom is/was a wallflower...Nice try to change the years we are talking about


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

futuristxen said:


> is like throwing marshmellows at the pygmy squirrels at the zoo


Hey I've done that, It's reeeeal fun.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

I like that he's a glutton for punishment though. He keeps coming back for more.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



bball2223 said:


> So all Kobes titles should be stripped because Shaq bulldozed?


Shaq was the real thing. A modern day giant. LeBron on the other hand is a player with skills but that are elevated with the unfair advantage the NBA refs give him. And as I already speculated It wouldn't be all that shocking if it came to light that he did steroids.


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> Bynum wasnt playing and Odom is/was a wallflower...Nice try to change the years we are talking about


So answer me this who has more talent on their team this year Kobe or LeBron? If Kobe is the player you guys make him out to be (MJ reincarnated) the Lakers will be a shoo-in for a title.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



futuristxen said:


> Two things:
> 1. How old are you?
> 2. <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TaKLmrmAg84"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TaKLmrmAg84" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
> If nobody in the NBA had been able to bulldoze like Lebron before, Kobe's hand wouldn't have any rings on it, and Charles Barkley wouldn't have an MVP. Welcome to the NBA. If you want a bunch of flop calls you better watch a different game.


I'm a 30 year old professional Born raisied in Oakland California, and been transplanted to Portland Oregon the past 10 years.

Second how you going to throw a Blazer clip in the face of an Oregon resident ? Not happening peep.


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Shaq was the real thing. A modern day giant. LeBron on the other hand is a player with skills but that are elevated with the unfair advantage the NBA refs give him. And as I already speculated It wouldn't be all that shocking if it came to light that he did steroids.


Please stop..You are making people arguing for Kobe look bad


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Come on guys, don't forget, 23AJ is completely fair and objective when he talks about basketball now... 



23AJ said:


> My move...LOL game of chess is it with you ? Thats probably the difference between us, I don't play the game. Instead I study it, and can give fair, and objective analysis about the game of basketball. Something you know nothing about.


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> Please stop..You are making people arguing for Kobe look bad


root for the suns


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> Please stop..You are making people arguing for Kobe look bad


Check your own self, this is my thread for one, I'm the creator. Maybe you should rep for Kobe your own way in your own thread ?


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Check your own self, this is my thread for one, I'm the creator. Maybe you should rep for Kobe your own way in your own thread ?


oh god no please don't tell him to make another Kobe thread :lol:


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



liekomgj4ck said:


> oh god no please don't tell him to make another Kobe thread :lol:


Kobe will never have a chance when his own fans are against each other. Dumb stuff. oh well Kobe is playing ball friday night. LA vs LA should be a good one.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Almost missed this little note of tonights game for Bron. He only had one assist. I know that when ever KoBe has a big scoring game with very little assists hes called selfish. So in turn we are seeing LeBron the selfish one now. This will continue I'm sure as the season continues. Nice 3 rebounds for the entire game too Bron Bron.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

23AJ said:


> Almost missed this little note of tonights game for Bron. He only had one assist. I know that when ever KoBe has a big scoring game with very little assists hes called selfish. So in turn we are seeing LeBron the selfish one now. This will continue I'm sure as the season continues. Nice 3 rebounds for the entire game too Bron Bron.


I take it you think Kobe is selfish when he scores big with only an assist or two?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Brandname said:


> I take it you think Kobe is selfish when he scores big with only an assist or two?


Take it how ever you want little buddy. But You Bron fan boys know that every time Kobe has a big scoring game with little assists to attribute to the game you call him selfish. Well guess what, LeBron is the new Chucker in the NBA.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

23AJ said:


> Take it how ever you want little buddy. But You Bron fan boys know that *every time Kobe has a big scoring game with little assists to attribute to the game you call him selfish.* Well guess what, LeBron is the new Chucker in the NBA.


I do? 

When?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Brandname said:


> I do?
> 
> When?


I group you all in the same boat. I can't decipher one LeBron fan form another. You all annoint him as the greatest thing since sliced bread. So I have to direct my points of contention I have with LeBron towards you Lebron fan boys as a group. So it may not have been you per se, but it has been a collective thought coming from the LeBron groupies on this board directed towards Kobe. However It's no longer the LA Kobes baby, its the Cleveland LeBrons. Bron Bron is the new chucker, and will do nothing but put up stats for his own personaly glroy for the next few seasons as the Cavs are going no where. Then Bron will leave to play with a contender. I called this melt down about a month ago regarding the Cavs season. It's in the works, and the bottom is going to be a mess when it's all said , and done. At least Bron will be out of Ohio, and will play for a decent franchise.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

23AJ said:


> I group you all in the same boat.


I stopped reading there. This is hilarious.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

:lol:


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

The impression from the last few pages is that the guy who is eight in the league in assists and had 10 assists just one night ago is suddenly going to average one assist a game the rest of the year because of one game. Strange sort of logic

The Cavs are being killed by injuries right now. Need to get healthy before the playoffs. These big scoring games by Lebron will tail off once Boobie and Z return


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Pioneer10 said:


> The impression from the last few pages is that the guy who is eight in the league in assists and had 10 assists just one night ago is suddenly going to average one assist a game the rest of the year because of one game. Strange sort of logic
> 
> The Cavs are being killed by injuries right now. Need to get healthy before the playoffs. These big scoring games by Lebron will tail off once Boobie and Z return


Actually all I could think about tonight is how much we miss Sasha, actually.

In the 4th, we put Lebron on Ben Gordon, but then Deng went crazy. So we switched Lebron to Deng and Gordon started going crazy. We really missed that second perimeter defender to tighten things up at the end of the game.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



23AJ said:


> Kobe will never have a chance when his own fans are against each other.


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



ehmunro said:


> By the way, folks, let's tone down the rhetoric here or the thread's getting locked.


I dare you...You dont have the balls...Prove me wrong...please


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I want to see the two threads merged into one massive humongous thread before it's closed.


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

23AJ; said:


> I group you all in the same boat. I can't decipher one LeBron fan form another. You all annoint him as the greatest thing since sliced bread. So I have to direct my points of contention I have with LeBron towards you Lebron fan boys as a group. So it may not have been you per se, but it has been a collective thought coming from the LeBron groupies on this board directed towards Kobe. However It's no longer the LA Kobes baby, its the Cleveland LeBrons. Bron Bron is the new chucker, and will do nothing but put up stats for his own personaly glroy for the next few seasons as the Cavs are going no where. Then Bron will leave to play with a contender. I called this melt down about a month ago regarding the Cavs season. It's in the works, and the bottom is going to be a mess when it's all said , and done. At least Bron will be out of Ohio, and will play for a decent franchise.


he'd sure look good in a knicks uni. a brooklyn nets jersey would go nicely w/ that yanks cap.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

yeah I'm sick and tired of going back and forth between these two threads, lets merge em!


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle; said:


> Bynum wasnt playing and Odom is/was a wallflower...Nice try to change the years we are talking about


niether of these guys have been all-stars, and gasol has only been on one AS team in his 7 nba seasons. where are the rest of these all stars?


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Wow.I know some people like to argue just for the sake of arguing,but I didn't know people liked to argue just for the sake of embarassing themselves.


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

Diable; said:


> Wow.I know some people like to argue just for the sake of arguing,but I didn't know people liked to argue just for the sake of embarassing themselves.


rubbernecker.:wink:


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

What did we learn tonight....? Kobe is in anotehr league when it comes to closing out games... all the other dopes in the league just need to sit back and take notes till Kobe passes the torch down to them, as MJ once did to him. This is Kobe's league. When he leaves it will then be LeBron's....the youngin needs ta wait his turn, his time is around tha corner.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

What an absolutely ridiculous thread this has turned into. 

Wow.


----------



## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

Power_Ballin said:


> What did we learn tonight....? Kobe is in anotehr league when it comes to closing out games... all the other dopes in the league just need to sit back and take notes till Kobe passes the torch down to them, as MJ once did to him. This is Kobe's league. When he leaves it will then be LeBron's....the youngin needs ta wait his turn, his time is around tha corner.


Yea man as we've witnessed only just a couple of times this season LeBron must really suck in 4th quarter.

But then it's not really fair because in 4th quarter points per game, if your team is just so good you don't need your star player playing in the 4th.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Power_Ballin said:


> What did we learn tonight....? Kobe is in anotehr league when it comes to closing out games... all the other dopes in the league just need to sit back and take notes till Kobe passes the torch down to them, as MJ once did to him. This is Kobe's league. When he leaves it will then be LeBron's....the youngin needs ta wait his turn, his time is around tha corner.


Wait, I'm confused. Then what did we learn when Cleveland played LA earlier this year?


----------



## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

Basel57 said:


> What an absolutely ridiculous thread this has turned into.
> 
> Wow.


Exactly. 

I feel like my IQ has dropped a bit after reading the last 8 pages.

To all the unstable "fans" (there are actually just two, but you know... ) saying that LeBron's chances for the MVP drop because of tonight's game... wow, simply wow. Bad games happen (I don't even know if it was a bad one, I'll go watch it now). Bad losses to bad teams happen. That's the NBA. It's not like they lost to the Los Angeles Sparx damn it, it was on a back to back and the Bulls played well the last time they met.

peace


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



DaRizzle said:


> I dare you...You dont have the balls...Prove me wrong...please


Who the hell do you think changed the title in the first place? Believe me, I have the balls. In fact, I am in the server room as I'm typing this and I just finished doing the _Sam Cassell Giant Testicle Dance_ and will probably do it again when I'm done. 



futuristxen said:


> I want to see the two threads merged into one massive humongous thread before it's closed.


Don't tempt me.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



ehmunro said:


> Who the hell do you think changed the title in the first place? Believe me, I have the balls. In fact, I am in the server room as I'm typing this and I just finished doing the _Sam Cassell Giant Testicle Dance_ and will probably do it again when I'm done.


So YOU were the raving Lebron homer who changed the thread title!! Damn you ehmunro!!


----------



## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

wah wah wah ....lock smock.....


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> So YOU were the raving Lebron homer who changed the thread title!! Damn you ehmunro!!


Thankfully I'm a fan of both players, so I don't feel threatened by the greatness of either.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



ehmunro said:


> Thankfully I'm a fan of both players, so I don't feel threatened by the greatness of either.


Psh, we'll have none of that here! Pick a side and hurl mindless vitriol towards the other one!


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Brandname said:


> Psh, we'll have none of that here! Pick a side and hurl mindless vitriol towards the other one!


Yeah, seriously. A fan of both players? PLEASE!


----------



## Dean the Master (Feb 19, 2006)

For the 108,398,433rd time, KOBE BRYANT! He's got the style that makes basketball an art. LeBron's game is just not beautiful, and that's it.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Dean the Master said:


> For the 108,398,433rd time, KOBE BRYANT! He's got the style that makes basketball an art. LeBron's game is just not beautiful, and that's it.


lol, nice.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



ehmunro said:


> Thankfully I'm a fan of both players, so I don't feel threatened by the greatness of either.


pssshh....coward.



:biggrin:


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



CubanLaker said:


> pssshh....coward.
> 
> 
> 
> :biggrin:


Don't make me ban you.


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

<a href="http://s196.photobucket.com/albums/aa75/psychoskier614/?action=view&current=funny-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa75/psychoskier614/funny-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

**Didnt draw this, have no idea what the skinhead nazi dude is about.***


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

I will take the good fela appraoch in this debate. Kobe=LeBron. They are equal


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Yeah what IS the skinhead doing?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

It's early in March, but neither of these guys is going to give up this trophy willingly.

Kobe is averaging 34/9/3 right now for March.
Lebron: 42/6/6

That's without factoring in Lebron's game today where he had 38/11/4. So his scoring average will be a little lowered and his assists as well, but his rebounds might come up a bit. Obviously I'm not a math major 

Point being, it's not Kobe or Lebron who is winning this year...
It's us...NBA basketball fans  Seeing perhaps two of the greatest players of all-time in over-lapping primes. With Lebron beginning to enter his, and Kobe square in the middle of his.


----------



## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

^^ I agree, except for the prime thingy. I think that LeBron, as scary as it sounds, has not yet entered his prime. And I also wouldn't say that Bryant is already in the middle of his. He is "only" 29 still. It would be nice to see a Lakers - Cavs finals somewhere along the line. And so very fitting...


----------



## Kaas (Apr 8, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Point being, it's not Kobe or Lebron who is winning this year...
> It's us...NBA basketball fans  Seeing perhaps two of the greatest players of all-time in over-lapping primes. With Lebron beginning to enter his, and Kobe square in the middle of his.


:yes:


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



ehmunro; said:


> Don't make me ban you.


i respect your position and your opinions, but please don't throw your weight around. mods should act above the fray, not revel in it.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KillWill said:


> *i respect your position and your opinions*, but please don't throw your weight around. mods should act above the fray, not revel in it.


Why on Earth would you do such a thing???? :eek8:



J/k


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



PauloCatarino; said:


> Why on Earth would you do such a thing???? :eek8:
> 
> 
> 
> J/k


i understand the responsibilities that moderators have. it's not always an easy job. but there are a number of guys on this site who love to take shots, and then hide behind their title. who's the head nerd around here anyway?


----------



## Kaas (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KillWill said:


> i respect your position and your opinions, but please don't throw your weight around. mods should act above the fray, not revel in it.


Pretty sure ehmunro was just joking around there...


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



Kaas; said:


> Pretty sure ehmunro was just joking around there...


hope so. i've never had a prob w/ the dude, especially since he is obviously a long time fan and an intelligent poster. i've just been seeing too many examples of what i deem as abuse of power by mods, and i find it lame to say the least.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

He was obviously joking. Come on people...


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Brandname said:


> Wait, I'm confused. Then what did we learn when Cleveland played LA earlier this year?


watch it - BN


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



KillWill said:


> hope so. i've never had a prob w/ the dude, especially *since he is obviously a long time fan and an intelligent poster.* i've just been seeing too many examples of what i deem as abuse of power by mods, and i find it lame to say the least.


lol.
Don't need to get on your knees, bud.
Ehmunro was only joking around...


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

John said:


> edit


A john sighting!!!


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



PauloCatarino said:


> Why on Earth would you do such a thing???? :eek8:


We haven't banned you yet? Must be a mismanagement oversight. We'll need to get on that right away. :bsmile:



KillKobe said:


> i understand the responsibilities that moderators have. it's not always an easy job. but there are a number of guys on this site who love to take shots, and then hide behind their title. who's the head nerd around here anyway?


The Trimuverate, blessed be their names, rule this place with an iron fist. I am but their humble servant.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



ehmunro said:


> We haven't banned you yet? Must be a mismanagement oversight. We'll need to get on that right away. :bsmile:


Celtic-lover!
Hah! See you on the Finals!


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



PauloCatarino said:


> Celtic-lover!
> Hah! See you on the Finals!


I thought you were a Lakers fan? Have you switched allegiance to the Spurs? :bsmile:


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



ehmunro; said:


> We haven't banned you yet? Must be a mismanagement oversight. We'll need to get on that right away. :bsmile:
> 
> 
> 
> The Trimuverate, blessed be their names, rule this place with an iron fist. I am but their humble servant.


nice name edit. maybe i'll keep it. god knows i've felt that way more than a few times over the years.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: ESPN Poll: Who's the best Player Kobe or LeBron*



ehmunro said:


> I thought you were a Lakers fan? Have you switched allegiance to the Spurs? :bsmile:


Blyme! I forgot you root for Orlando!


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

bump (ha ha)

You can contain/shut down Lebron if you make him a jump shooter...cant do that to Kobe :biggrin:


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

DaRizzle said:


> bump (ha ha)
> 
> You can contain/shut down Lebron if you make him a jump shooter...cant do that to Kobe :biggrin:


No need to bump this at all... :sigh:


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

DaRizzle said:


> bump (ha ha)
> 
> You can contain/shut down Lebron if you make him a jump shooter...cant do that to Kobe :biggrin:


That's news to you??


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

no, but people on here will dispute it unless it happened that day :cheers:


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

DaRizzle said:


> bump (ha ha)
> 
> You can contain/shut down Lebron if you make him a jump shooter...cant do that to Kobe :biggrin:


The Pistons beg to differ.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Basel57 said:


> No need to bump this at all... :sigh:


Seriously. You done ****ed up DaRizzle. Go to bed.


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Just for fun


Here is a general rundown of each players' offensive repetoire. This is offense only. No need to mention that Kobe is an elite defender. 

LeBron: 
- dunk 
- layup 



Kobe: 
-dunk 
-layup 
- scoop shot 
- finger roll 
- hook shot 
- left handed hook shot 
- running hook shot 
- left handed running hook shot 
- post up, up-and-under 
- post up, spin move, either direction 
- post up, fadeaway 
- post up, spin-move, bank shot 
- post up, spin-move, fadeaway 
- post up, spin-move, fadeaway bank shot 
- post up, spin-move, fadeaway double-clutch bank shot 
- 180- fadeaway bank shot 
- 180- double-clutch fadeaway bank shot 
- mid range jumper 
- mid range fadeaway 
- mid range bank shot 
- baseline fadeaway 
- long range jumper 
- long range fadeaway 
- long range bank shot 
- 3 point jump shot 
- 3 point fadeaway 
- 3 point bank shot 
- 35 foot 3 point shot 

:biggrin:


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

EHL said:


> Seriously. You done ****ed up DaRizzle. Go to bed.


Yes I did...i was in a haze


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

KDOS said:


> Just for fun
> 
> 
> Here is a general rundown of each players' offensive repetoire. This is offense only. No need to mention that Kobe is an elite defender.
> ...


And yet Bron scores more points on a higher percentage... Amazing with just that small repertoire...


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Hibachi! said:


> And yet Bron scores more points on a higher percentage... Amazing with just that small repertoire...


Right now is probably not the best time to brag about Lebron's "scoring more" on "higher percentage" shot argument.


----------



## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

Why, man, why?

(you better pray to whoever you pray that Kobe has a brilliant game tonight )


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Obviously it's easy to shut Lebron down. That's why only 2 of the top 3 defenses of this decade have been able to do it. The other top 3 defense shut Kobe down in the Finals.

But really, I have no problems with Kobe. I feel for his fans that have to deal with people DaRizzle who just make them look bad and obnoxious. I have a feeling most Kobe fans are shaking their heads at this.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

KDOS said:


> Just for fun
> 
> 
> Here is a general rundown of each players' offensive repetoire. This is offense only. No need to mention that Kobe is an elite defender.
> ...


Obviously this post was a joke, but I really did laugh quite a bit at that one.


----------



## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Ugh...why, that's all I wanna know? I'm a huge Kobe fan but the Celtics did the same thing to him this year.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Can't have cuss words showing.*


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Ugh...why, that's all I wanna know? I'm a huge Kobe fan but the Celtics did the same thing to him this year.


Im not going to say Kobe will do better, but that one game at Staples with his shorts short, Kobe was just off his rhythm. It's not because he was shut down, he was missing some wide open jumpers and other shots he normally makes. If I remember correctly, that was a week after Kobe was shooting 36% from the field in a few string of games, because of his pulled groin.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Ugh...why, that's all I wanna know? I'm a huge Kobe fan but the Celtics did the same thing to him this year.


He wasn't terrible in the first game @ Boston.

9/21 shooting, 3/7 threes, 7/9 free throws, 28 points, 2 turnovers

But in the 2nd game, he was terrible. 6/25 shooting, 0/6 threes, 10/11 free throws, 22 points, 3 turnovers


----------



## G-man-sc (May 9, 2008)

I don't think people will ever agree upon this subject, a person will never be able to have a truly objective sight upon this discussion, people want basketball played different ways, stats can lie on who is actually the best, and so can the rings. i will not say any1 is the bether 1, but i personately likes lebrons game bether, because of his court-vision, he is so excellent at setting up his teammates, also i will add that he has majorly disappointed me against boston, looking unwilling to bear the burden of taking his team further. although i would like to add that kobe is a tremendous player as well, and maybe the one with the best offensive repetoire, and undeniably the most killer-instinct, but i simply likes lebrons physical dominance and his highlight plays.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Basel57 said:


> He wasn't terrible in the first game @ Boston.
> 
> 9/21 shooting, 3/7 threes, 7/9 free throws, 28 points, 2 turnovers
> 
> But in the 2nd game, he was terrible. 6/25 shooting, 0/6 threes, 10/11 free throws, 22 points, 3 turnovers


And on top of that, the Lakers have a lot more offensive weapons that the Celtics have to guard than the Cavs do.

The story of this series so far isn't Lebron's immense suckage (which is indeed immense), it's that the Celtics are playing otherworldly defense. I am only hoping that they don't come with the same intensity on the road.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

So do Cavs fans on here think they should fire the coach, no if ands or buts?


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Brandname said:


> And on top of that, the Lakers have a lot more offensive weapons that the Celtics have to guard than the Cavs do.
> 
> The story of this series so far isn't Lebron's immense suckage (which is indeed immense), it's that the Celtics are playing otherworldly defense. I am only hoping that they don't come with the same intensity on the road.


LeBron has absolutely no help. The whole Cavs offense is give it to LeBron and get the hell out of the way. There is no proven second option on that team that is consistent. Gibson, Szcerbiak, Big Z, Varejao neither of these 4 are consistent on offense. Gibson (when he is shooting well) provide some help for LeBron, Szcerbiak is streaky also. Varejao isn't much of an offensive player and Big Z is just really really old. Because of this the Celtics can sag 3 or 4 guys into the lane to help on LeBron on penetration which is why it looks like they are playing some of the best defense ever. The Cavs offseason/trade/draft/free agent priority needs to be a guy who can provide some help on the offensive side of the ball so teams have to respect something else other than LeBron's penetration.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Brandname said:


> I feel for his fans that have to deal with people DaRizzle who just make them look bad and obnoxious.


I let you have that insult for the sake of peace even though it is the furthest from the truth. 

First off I am NOT a Kobe fanatic like you are trying to portray me. Do I think Kobe is better? Sure. Thought that before the playoffs started. Im just a *Lakers* fan and they happen to have Kobe. Secondly, I was a little buzzed when I had the stupid idea (it really was) to bump this thread but at the same time wasnt my comment in the bump factual? Do you really want to argue that Lebrons J is on par with Kobe's? Dont try to herd all Laker fans into "Im a Kobe fan, who cares about the Lakers". If you were to go back to the threads when he wanted to get traded you would see my opinion for Kobe...What can we get for him? Dont let the door hit you on the way out Kobe...

There are indeed blind Kobe jockers on here my friend but I am not one of them


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

DaRizzle said:


> I let you have that insult for the sake of peace even though it is the furthest from the truth.
> 
> First off I am NOT a Kobe fanatic like you are trying to portray me. Do I think Kobe is better? Sure. Thought that before the playoffs started. Im just a *Lakers* fan and they happen to have Kobe. Secondly, I was a little buzzed when I had the stupid idea (it really was) to bump this thread but at the same time wasnt my comment in the bump factual? Do you really want to argue that Lebrons J is on par with Kobe's? Dont try to herd all Laker fans into "Im a Kobe fan, who cares about the Lakers". If you were to go back to the threads when he wanted to get traded you would see my opinion for Kobe...What can we get for him? Dont let the door hit you on the way out Kobe...
> 
> There are indeed blind Kobe jockers on here my friend but I am not one of them


What can I say? You came off as quite obnoxious by doing that, and I have no doubt most Kobe fans hate the kind of backlash that stuff causes.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Was the "ha ha & :biggrin:" not clue enough that this is a fruitless thread and I was just having a little fun?

eace:
lets both get over it


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

By the way, just to end this argument once and for all, Kobe is better because his name is cooler. And he has better nicknames. Mamba > King.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

John said:


> watch it - BN


Thanks to the Admin staff who activate my account once again. I told you I will be back. My career is not over!


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> My career is not over!
> __________________
> "I can still play this game" - Penny Hardaway


love the irony.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

kflo said:


> love the irony.


:bump:


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

kflo said:


> love the irony.


okay, good post. But every championship player needs to go through the pain and failure. I will be back.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

OMGBaselRocks! said:


> :bump:


So you are Scottie Pippen age? What were you doing when Pippen was having 22/7/6 type season? What ashame!


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

Oh hell no, not him again...mg:


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

you bumped this ancient thread to say you are back?


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