# Change is good.



## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Ainge clearly has turned this team over. The only player who is still on the team from when he arrived is Paul Pierce - who is having a career season.

There's lot's of talk about how "Ainge Sucks" and "Kiss My *** Ainge" (with all due respect #1AW )etc. but as my signature shows I feel that given what Danny had to work with when he arrived - the job he has done in changing this team is fantastic.

Last night really was a lot of fun to watch and that to me is a testament to Ainge's work. I saw much more positive than negative last night. I don't know if finally cutting off the dead weight of Blount has freed this team - but something has changed even from the begining of the season. We don't get into these big holes that we then have to try and dig out of. The ball movement has been fantastic. Pierce while having a fantastic season has taken it to an even higher level. I am loving what I have seen of Gomes. Wally is better than I expected. Much more than a jump shooter. He hustles, moves the ball very well, has some decent post moves, tough player, and seems to have a great thing going with Pierce.

I enjoy watching this team, even though they are 20-32, much more than the team that won 49 games a few seasons ago. It's a much better brand of hoops. If you can look past the current record...something very good is brewing here.

Get your season tickets while you can. The wait is almost over.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

The way I think of it is we were only getting worse before Ainge got here, and I expected to only get worse as the moves he made. I am still 100% behind Ainge because so far he has done what he said he would do which is get a young group of guys to surround Paul Pierce and has kept the captain happy over the course of this season, I dont expect this team to contend until 07-08 but there are deffineatly already flashes of a good future from our lemonade.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

lol...with all due respect causeway u forget to mention how he has crippled us salary-cap wise in having somethign like 90% of the cap tied into raef wally and paul for the next few years...and also none of us know how good any of those kids will be as much potential as they show so far thats all it is is potential


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Ainge's tenure won't look so sweet without Pierce in two seasons.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Premier said:


> Ainge's tenure won't look so sweet without Pierce in two seasons.


Not even with Oden?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Will Pierce be re-signed after his contract ends? Because if we're not planning on re-upping him, better to get something for him than nothing, especially with his value where it is right now. If he goes into the last year of his deal and the C's have no intention of re-signing, then we're not going to get nearly the value we could've because teams will just sign him in free agency.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

We won't get Oden. First of all, we're not that bad. Secondly, David Stern would fix the lottery (a la Ewing; forget Illuminati, this is _the real_ conspiracy theory [oxymoron, right?]).

Perhaps my worst post ever?


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Premier said:


> We won't get Oden. First of all, we're not that bad. Secondly, David Stern would fix the lottery (a la Ewing; forget Illuminati, this is _the real_ conspiracy theory [oxymoron, right?]).
> 
> Perhaps my worst post ever?


Heh...speaking of fixing the lottery, Barkley asked Stern tonight if he thinks he needs to see Boston and New York come out to the top again and he responded with a "no" I thought that was an interesting conversation.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> forget Illuminati, this is the real conspiracy theory


In the words of Immortal Technique in probably the best political rap ever, "You think Illuminati's just a ****in' conspiracy theory?"


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

You like IT? Cool.

_Slow Down Gandhi _(Sage Francis) is better than _Cause of Death_. Nothing touches PE though.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

I really like Immortal Technique, yeah, although since my move nothing but country music has graced my pickup.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> lol...with all due respect causeway u forget to mention how he has crippled us salary-cap wise in having somethign like 90% of the cap tied into raef wally and paul for the next few years


I am not worried about the cap. That will get worked out. 



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> ...and also none of us know how good any of those kids will be as much potential as they show so far thats all it is is potential


so far so good with the young guys. I have faith. You never know what the future will hold but you should by now be able to see signs that we have some great young talent.  It's not a total unknown shot in the dark.

Tony Delk, J.R. Bremer, Joseph Forte, Shammond Williams, Walter McCarty, Vin Baker, Bimbo Coles, Eric Williams, Kedrick Brown, Grant Long, Bruno Sundov, Ruben Wolkowyski, Mark Bryant, Mark Blount...I already know what those guys are doing now and don't want any of them back because now "all we have is potential". We have more than that. And the above was not a better option.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Causeway said:


> I am not worried about the cap. That will get worked out.


How do you figure? Our cap situation is pretty bad with two long-term contracts for overpaid players that are practically unmoveable unless Ainge compensates with multiple 1st round picks or young players. With the near max deal Jefferson will recieve, the relatively high contract Delonte West will recieve, and the at least MLE contract Kendrick Perkins will recieve, the future cap situation is bleak.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> How do you figure? Our cap situation is pretty bad with two long-term contracts for overpaid players that are practically unmoveable *unless Ainge compensates with multiple 1st round picks or young players.* With the near max deal Jefferson will recieve, the relatively high contract Delonte West will recieve, and the at least MLE contract Kendrick Perkins will recieve, the future cap situation is bleak.


Many people said Blount was "unmoveable". He moved. And we happen to _have_ "multiple 1st round picks and young players". Ainge will not keep all those picks. Someone will want one or two of those - and will have to eat a contract in the process. Happens all the time.

The cup is more than half full.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

I never said that Blount is unmoveable. He is an average center being paid what average centers recieve. His trade kicker slightly raises his contract, but he was far from unmoveable. In my opinion, we did not need to trade Ricky Davis to move Blount but that's an entirely different argument that I don't care for anymore.

1st round picks (especially those in the '07 draft) are very valuable and I do not wish to trade them just to move an albatross (LaFrentz) that Ainge acquired. Why would we want to trade 1st round picks? The only one that I would consider trading is the second '06 first. Ainge is a good scout. He'll turn those picks into good talent.

Which young player would you trade? I would not move any in a deal with LaFrentz or Szczerbiak (who will not be traded under any circumstance). Tony Allen is a lock-down defender, something very valuable on any team. Delonte West is the percieved "future point guard of the franchise" dead, Kendrick Perkins may develop into a solid center of a great backup, Al Jefferson has enough potential to become a star and will be a starting power forward at the very least (disregarding injuries).

The cap situation sucks.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

At this rate Al is not going to get anywhere near a Max contract....I love the kid but he's not there yet and I'm not sure when he will be. Perk, yeah, he'll definately get MLE or better, good big men don't grow on trees. DWest it remains to be seen, I mean if he were up this year then I could see him getting something like Kyle Korver got......decent but not crazy money. TA is gonna get traded, that kid isn't the same this year, I think the injury ruined him. We'll see though. Raef will go over the summer and if a draft pick goes with him so be it, we have enough of them and a ton of young guys. I don't want an all under 23 team.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Jefferson's starting salary will be atleast eight million dollars. He should be seeing a sixty-five million dollar contract over six years. Jefferson and his agent know that he is percieved as the future of the franchise, which makes it that much harder to sign him to a cheap deal. Like him or not, he has an ego and he is talented and if Ainge doesn't extend him, Celtics fans would revolt. He basically can dicate his value.

Perkins would be signed for the Early-Bird Exception.

Delonte West will make somewhere in between those two if he keeps it up and/or improves.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

From what Al has shown us thus far, I would be extremely, EXTREMELY wary to give Jefferson that kind of money. Actually, going by what he has shown right now, you'd have to actually clinically retarded to give Al 6/65.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

wasnt everyone saying he'd average 15-9 this year???...i hope im wrong but at this rate he wont average that for a season ever in his career


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

I said 12/8, but I was a ways off, too.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Premier said:


> Ainge's tenure won't look so sweet without Pierce in two seasons.


Pierce won't be here next year. They have to shed his salary if they want to re-sign Perkins, Jefferson & West without paying through the nose in luxury tax. Theoretically they could shed Szczerbiak or Lafrentz instead, but it took McHale two years to find someone willing to take Szczerbiak's contract, I doubt that the rest of the league will chance its mind about him any time soon.



Premier said:


> Jefferson's starting salary will be atleast eight million dollars. He should be seeing a sixty-five million dollar contract over six years. Jefferson and his agent know that he is percieved as the future of the franchise, which makes it that much harder to sign him to a cheap deal. Like him or not, he has an ego and he is talented and if Ainge doesn't extend him, Celtics fans would revolt. He basically can dicate his value.
> 
> Perkins would be signed for the Early-Bird Exception.
> 
> Delonte West will make somewhere in between those two if he keeps it up and/or improves.


Perkins was a first round pick, they can sign him for whatever they want. The danger is that after next year he'll be a restricted free agent, and while his athletic shortcomings will prevent him from getting Sam Dam money, he'll get an above MLE offer from someone (like Atlanta or maybe Chicago). And that's where the trouble lies, as the year after that they have West & Jefferson to deal with. And something tells me that Big Al will have his breakout season in his contract year. That will put them well over the luxury tax line (if they even attempted to keep Pierce) for a team that isn't a title contender, and doesn't even have a shot at title contention (because it lacks star players). That's the real problem of tying up money in mediocrity.



> Not even with Oden?


I have this sneaking suspicion that in a three star draft, Boston will end up drafting fourth. This the WWEBA, and Stern's soap opera scripts will continue unabated until he drinks himself to death.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> I never said that Blount is unmoveable. He is an average center being paid what average centers recieve. His trade kicker slightly raises his contract, but he was far from unmoveable. In my opinion, we did not need to trade Ricky Davis to move Blount but that's an entirely different argument that I don't care for anymore.
> 
> 1st round picks (especially those in the '07 draft) are very valuable and I do not wish to trade them just to move an albatross (LaFrentz) that Ainge acquired. Why would we want to trade 1st round picks? The only one that I would consider trading is the second '06 first. Ainge is a good scout. He'll turn those picks into good talent.
> 
> ...


It's a "is the cup half full or half empty" issue. Is it a negative that Ainge has acquired all this great young talent that he now needs to find money and cap space to hold onto? Or is that a positive. I see it as a positive. Yes it will not be simple. To move Raef he'll probably have to move a young guy and/or a pick. It's ususally not perfect. But I see these as good problems to have.

To me it's better than having the Grant Longs and Bruno Sundovs etc. and having no cap worries.

:cheers:


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

I'm not arguing that he has acquired great talent. I'm arguing that after he has drafted good prospects, he has put the Celtics in a situation where to retain them, he will have to trade away our best player since Larry Bird. Though Al Jefferson, Delonte West, and Kendrick Perkins are nice to have but they do not make up championship teams. With LaFrentz and Szczerbiak, we cannot build onto our core unless the owners want to go in Luxury Tax land (they don't; why Antoine was traded for LaFrentz and Mills' contract [covered by insurance]). We're tying up all of our money into players that cannot take the Celtics anywhere but the first round of the playoffs. Ainge has done a nice job of getting talent but some of his latest moves have really hindered the rebuilding process that the Celtics were doing well.

Trading LaFrentz without ruining our future is impossible. Unless Ainge can find a suitor without dealing _multiple _first-round picks in good drafts ('07 where Ainge would have likely selected a very good player as he is a good scout). If Baron Davis was traded in a cap dump and the Hornets only recieved mediocre players, what makes you think that Raef LaFrentz can be dealt in a flash?


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

The only one of our young players who we will need to resign before the contracts of Raef and Wally expire in '09 will be Perk's in '08. So worrying about not being able to retain our young guys I think is misguided. By the time we need to pony up the money for Al and Delonte , Raef will be packing his bags or agreeing to stay at a drastically reduced price. Wally's situation is less clear for a lot of reasons, but he may be gone too, depending on what happens with Pierce and how Green develops. It's quite possible that Wally either won't be here for the '09-'10 season or will be back in a reduced role for fewer dollars. So I don't think the contracts of Raef and Wally hurt us at all in keeping our young guys. 

Perk's contract comes up for renewal in 2007 (we can make a qualifying offer to make him a restricted free agent) and by then not only Kandi's but Vin Baker's salaries will be "off the books." The next year, summer of 2008, West, Jefferson and Allen's contracts will be over (assuming we excercise their fourth year options, and again, we can make them free agents with a qualifying offer) and by then Pierce's contract will be over, and Raef and Wally will have one year remaining on their contracts. So by then it will depend on if we want to keep all three of those players (or do we trade Allen before then) and obviously can we resign Pierce and also resign Wally and/or Raef, and if so, for how much. It is possible we resign Perk with the $ we save on Kandi + Baker, then use the "Larry Bird" exception to resign Paul, West, Jefferson and Allen, swallow the luxury tax for one year, then waive good-bye to Raef once his contract is done, and possibly Wally if Green develops according to our hopes. 

We also have 5 first round picks over the next three years that will add talent at a bargain price.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> It's a "is the cup half full or half empty" issue.


Actually I have a threory that proves both of those wrong...I've been using it since middle school, it's pretty neat, but I don't want to get into it. 


The other post:

Perk goes up for renewal at the end of 08, which will put us over the cap already (1st rounders and Perk's new contract will be over 50M). The other thing everyone seems to be forgeting is that Pierce has a 16 million player option. He won't be getting anther contract like that in two years no matter how good he plays. No matter how much the team stinks (which it won't at that time) he'll be taking 16 million that year, which would put us over 65 million of salaries.

Not to be as negative as one can be, but the best way to look at these salaries is in the short run, you pay for this year and worry about next, but in all honesty it would be much easier to look at it that way if Raef and Wally weren't a few injuries from turning into Grant Hill.


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## BackwoodsBum (Jul 2, 2003)

Causeway said:


> It's a "is the cup half full or half empty" issue.


Every time I see this quote I think of a t-shirt a friend of mine has. It says:

"An optimist thinks the glass is half full,
A pessimist thinks the glass is half empty,
I think you have too damn big a glass!"

:biggrin:


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

The thing to keep in mind is that no one, NO ONE, knows exactly what is going to happen between now and then. Just think of one variable, Gerald Green. If in three years Gerald's game grows to match his athleticism (and after Kedrick Brown believe me I know that's a _big _ IF) then a 31 year-old Pierce seeking the max might be seen in a different light than if Gerald flounders. We just don't know that now. We also don't know what Paul himself might want. If Delonte, Al, Perk, Gerald etc look like they could help him to a title, maybe he doesn't try to break the bank and wants to stick around for a shot. 

The great news is that we have at least another full year, and in most cases more, to evaluate each of the young guys. Things have a way of clarifying themselves. Some of the young guns will prove worthy of keeping and finding $$ for and others not so much.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

I love this team.


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## Attila (Jul 23, 2003)

Causeway said:


> Ainge clearly has turned this team over.


 I agree that things are looking up, but let's not get too carried away. A 5-2 run is nice, but the team is still below 500. Remember that the Knicks started the new year with a 6-0 run?

Believe me, I'm happy if the team finally starts to turn things around. I just think we're getting ahead of ourselves based on one good run.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Attila said:


> I agree that things are looking up, but let's not get too carried away. A 5-2 run is nice, but the team is still below 500. Remember that the Knicks started the new year with a 6-0 run?
> 
> Believe me, I'm happy if the team finally starts to turn things around. I just think we're getting ahead of ourselves based on one good run.


There is no comparing our Celtics to the Knicks. And what is going on in my opinion has little to nothing to do with the 5-2 run. In fact if we ended up 0-6 in those games my opinion would change little to none. It's not about the W's - it's watching and seeing what's happening on the fllor and how we are playing and jelling. We play hard. We do not quit. We move the ball very well. We crash the boards. We are positive. The chemistry seems fantastic. We are young and hungry. And we still have 5 #1 picks. And Paul All-World Pierce.

The Knicks? Come on.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Pierce for Maggette. After all, they're "pretty much the same player."


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