# Bulls and Blazers in trade talks



## mvP to the Wee

www.rumorpress.net

This is TechN9ne's rumor page.


> The Portland Trail Blazers are in an intense search to find a point guard, and they’re interested in one on the Chicago Bulls. The Blazers have offered Forward Travis Outlaw and Center Joel Przybilla to Bulls in exchange for Kirk Hinrich and possibly a future draft pick. The Bulls are mildly interested in the deal, but are still reluctant to trade Hinrich. The Bulls are trying to see if the Blazers have any interest in Ben Gordon instead, that of course if Gordon is interested in accepting a deal to go to the Blazers. Outlaw, a five year veteran, averaged 13.3 points and 4.6 rebounds per game last season. Przybilla, an eight year veteran, averaged 4.8 points and 8.4 rebounds per game last season.


Tech9 is a very good source. He reported the Wallace/Hughes trade discussions months before the trade went through.


----------



## Da_O

P to the Wee said:


> www.rumorpress.net
> 
> This is TechN9ne's rumor page.
> 
> 
> Tech9 is a very good source. He reported the Wallace/Hughes trade discussions months before the trade went through.



That would absolutely be a terrible. If KP actually did that, we take away the phrase pritchslap forever.


----------



## HispanicCausinPanic

Don't do it! Leave good enough alone!


----------



## Tortimer

Well with having a Memphis trade rumor for Outlaw maybe there is something to these rumors. I think both the Memphis and this rumor are both bad trades for the Blazers. I just can't believe KP would do these trades. I just think trading Joel without at least seeing Oden play one game is something KP wouldn't do. We would have way to many PG's and short on SF's with either trade and unless there is another trade I just don't think it makes sense for the Blazers.


----------



## BlazerFanFoLife

I have long said the Kirk Hinrich would be a target of KP's. He played for KP's alma mater and seems to need a change of scenery to help his growth. I'm starting to think that Nate might just run a big 3 gaurd lineup and just have Oden and LaMarcus clog up the middle. My only gripe is that I think Pryzbilla is a better fit for this team than Frye is but both are good players in their own rights and they contribute to the game in different ways, that said I would do this trade and maybe even throw in some of those 2nd round picks we have stocked up.


----------



## Sambonius

I don't buy it.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Sambonius said:


> I don't buy it.


Tech9 reported tons of stuff before they actually happened. He's legit for sure.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

As a Bulls fan, I like this trade, but we really don't need depth. What are Outlaw ad Przybilla's strength and weaknesses?


----------



## Sambonius

Oh I'm sure, and I don't doubt that talks between the two might have gone on before the draft, and even until now. But I don't see an actual deal going down. Not at all.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Sambonius said:


> Oh I'm sure, and I don't doubt that talks between the two might have gone on before the draft, and even until now. But I don't see an actual deal going down. Not at all.


Oh ok. From the rumors I've read, it seems as if Outlaw is on his way out for a PG.


----------



## stupendous

Ugh, seriously. This looks to be pulled out of thin air. I honestly have NO clue why the Blazers would pull the trigger on this trade. It makes no sense if you take into account what the balance amongst positions would be if that went through:

Hinrich/Blake/Sergio
Roy/Rudy/Bayless
Webster/Batum
Aldridge/Frye/Diogu
Oden/LaFrentz

It just enthralls me a lot less than what we already have. Przybilla and Outlaw are CRUCIAL for the success of that second unit. We are FINE at point guard right now, so this trade really makes no sense to me.


----------



## dreamcloud

This better be just a rumor. KP couldn't possibly be giving up our SF, but mainly Joel Pryzbilla. An opportunity to have excellent interior defense 48 min a game, for HINRICH. ANOTHER PG. That would bring it up to 6 people who can play PG. If this is somehow legit, then it'll be KPs first bad trade. Oden needs Joel when he'll for SURE get in foul trouble early on. KP don't let it be.


----------



## RoyToy

What a retarded trade idea. Hell no.


----------



## RoseCity

Wait until we see Oden for a month or two Mr. Pritchard -- Please! Last thing we need is Channing as our starting and backup center! I might do Lafrentz and Outlaw for Hinrich swap in February. Only IF Hinrich picks up his game this year. Hinrich played horrible last year which could be attributed to injury, sluggishness or just poor chemistry with an out of synch Bulls team. Whatever the reason, lets see how things play out. Besides, Pritchard isn't stupid enough to trade two bigs for one small.


----------



## Sambonius

P to the Wee said:


> Oh ok. From the rumors I've read, it seems as if Outlaw is on his way out for a PG.


I'd be surprised. I'm not the biggest proponent of Outlaw but with Roy, Rudy F, Bayless, and Blake all showing the ability to play point guard and the uncertainty of Martell Webster, I think Outlaw stays, at least until we see how Bayless and Fernandez play in their respective roles.


----------



## Iwatas

This trade had better not be real. Hinrich does not impress me at all.

iWatas


----------



## Miksaid

Only way I see this happening is if somehow Pritchard had a second deal lined up for a small forward. Otherwise, not liking this one a whole lot.


----------



## BlazerFan22

P to the Wee said:


> Oh ok. From the rumors I've read, it seems as if Outlaw is on his way out for a PG.


Good I don't see him fiting in vary well at SF and I don't see him getting much time at PF either. I like Outlaw but it might be best for him to move to another team. Although if thats the case you might as well kiss the idea of Bayless starting at PG goodbuy.


----------



## PapaG

There will not be any trades by the Blazers before camp opens.


----------



## yuyuza1

All I have to say is that I have full faith in KP. If he feels that we need a PG now, then that thought is probably correct.


----------



## craigehlo

A Steve Blake and Outlaw package works for Kirk. I'd rather keep Joel since Frye and Ike are a little undersized to play backup C for a team that expects to make the playoffs in the West.


----------



## BG7

This trade would be pointless for the Bulls. It would be completely unsatisfactory for the Bulls if they didn't demand Rudy Fernandez back in this trade. Maybe you could slide this through if Hinrich is the center piece, but Fernandez is a must, coming back in this type of trade if Gordon is the center piece.

The one thing is that it seems like the Bulls are deadset getting a legit center.

Bulls have no need for Travis Outlaw, who at best, would be 3rd on the depth chart.


----------



## BlazerFan22

BG7 said:


> This trade would be pointless for the Bulls. It would be completely unsatisfactory for the Bulls if they didn't demand Rudy Fernandez back in this trade. Maybe you could slide this through if Hinrich is the center piece, but Fernandez is a must, coming back in this type of trade if Gordon is the center piece.
> 
> The one thing is that it seems like the Bulls are deadset getting a legit center.
> 
> Bulls have no need for Travis Outlaw, who at best, would be 3rd on the depth chart.


Isen't Darek Rose the Bulls center piece?


----------



## dreamcloud

If we give away Joel, I think KP is getting burned out and needs to take a rest. Like until All star break. -.-


----------



## mvP to the Wee

If the Bulls do trade Gordon rather than Hinrich, what would you guys think of Gordon, Nocioni, Simmons for Outlaw and Przybilla? If Gordon is in the trade, another one of Chicago's big contracts have to be involved(Hughes,Gooden,Nocioni,Hinrich) due to the BYC.


----------



## BG7

P to the Wee said:


> If the Bulls do trade Gordon rather than Hinrich, what would you guys think of Gordon, Nocioni, Simmons for Outlaw and Przybilla? If Gordon is in the trade, another one of Chicago's big contracts have to be involved(Hughes,Gooden,Nocioni,Hinrich) due to the BYC.


Any Ben Gordon sign and trade basically has to involve Andres Nocioni, which would bring up the question, "Why the hell is John Paxson trading Ben Gordon and Andres Nocioni in the same trade and getting crap in return".


----------



## mvP to the Wee

BlazerFan22 said:


> Isen't Darek Rose the Bulls center piece?


He's talking about the centerpiece of the trade. If it was the centerpiece of the Bulls, it would probably be Ben Gordon


----------



## BG7

BlazerFan22 said:


> Isen't Darek Rose the Bulls center piece?


Speaking about the center piece of the trade.


----------



## nikolokolus

I'm not saying that this rumor and the Outlaw for Conley/Lowry/Crittenton rumor before it are totally bogus but they all leave me scratching my head; I can envision almost no scenario wherein the blazers take the floor with Nicolas Batum as their primary backup 3, not unless channing has been adding explosive hops to his game in addition to a newfound 3-ball.

Przy/Outlaw for Hinrich also seriously depletes depth in the frontcourt while crowding an already overstuffed backcourt.

Blech.


----------



## Balian

P to the Wee said:


> If the Bulls do trade Gordon rather than Hinrich, what would you guys think of Gordon, Nocioni, Simmons for Outlaw and Przybilla? If Gordon is in the trade, another one of Chicago's big contracts have to be involved(Hughes,Gooden,Nocioni,Hinrich) due to the BYC.


Why the hell do we need another combo guard ...an expensive one at that?


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Balian said:


> Why the hell do we need another combo guard ...an expensive one at that?


Well Tech9 does say that the Bulls are trying to talk the Blazers into taking Ben Gordon so it would be a possibility.


----------



## BlazerFan22

P to the Wee said:


> If the Bulls do trade Gordon rather than Hinrich, what would you guys think of Gordon, Nocioni, Simmons for Outlaw and Przybilla? If Gordon is in the trade, another one of Chicago's big contracts have to be involved(Hughes,Gooden,Nocioni,Hinrich) due to the BYC.


I like Nocioni I think the Blazers could use his physical toughness. Gordon woulden't make much sence for the Blazers as we already have enough gaurds.


----------



## BG7

BlazerFan22 said:


> I like Nocioni I think the Blazers could use his physical toughness. Gordon woulden't make much sence for the Blazers as we already have enough gaurds.


Ben Gordon would be the perfect complement to Brandon Roy.

Although you're right, you guys do have a lot of guards. If you guys didn't get a guy who should have been the #4 pick in the draft, and ended up someone more at your position in the draft, I think you guys would have been gunning hard at getting Gordon.

Pritchard probably sees it as, Blake becomes a spot bench player.

PG- Kirk Hinrich
SG- Brandon Roy

with Jerryd Bayless as the PG/SG 6th man, like Gordon played a bit for the Bulls, and then Rudy Fernandez as the 2/3 backup.


----------



## BenDavis503

P to the Wee said:


> Oh ok. From the rumors I've read, it seems as if Outlaw is on his way out for a PG.


Why on Earth would we need a PG when we have Blake, Bayless, Roy, Rudy and Sergio? 

Why on Earth would we trade our 6th man SF for a PG when we only have 2 SFs right now and have 5 players who can play PG?

This trade is not going to happen. Unless we plan on playing Roy and\or Rudy at 3 and that would be stupid.


----------



## BenDavis503

P to the Wee said:


> Well Tech9 does say that the Bulls are trying to talk the Blazers into taking Ben Gordon so it would be a possibility.


You know that is not the real Tech N9ne right? Don't you?



> Tech N9ne is the screen name for Victor Bellan on the NBA Basketball site Realgm. Tech broke out onto the scene in 2002 as one of Chicago’s top Bulls Insiders, breaking numerous Bulls stories weeks before the news went public.


----------



## RoyToy

Been about an hour since my original post. Yup, still a retarded trade idea. Don't want either Hinrich or Gordon, especially for Outlaw and Przybilla. Neither would make the Blazers better than they were before when you figure in losing Outlaw and Przybilla.


----------



## BlazerFan22

BenDavis503 said:


> Why on Earth would we need a PG when we have Blake, Bayless, Roy, Rudy and Sergio?
> 
> Why on Earth would we trade our 6th man SF for a PG when we only have 2 SFs right now and have 5 players who can play PG?
> 
> This trade is not going to happen. Unless we plan on playing Roy and\or Rudy at 3 and that would be stupid.


Well KP did say that he did like wheeling and deeling.


----------



## craigehlo

nikolokolus said:


> I can envision almost no scenario wherein the blazers take the floor with Nicolas Batum as their primary backup 3


Backup SF is probably the easiest hole to fill in the NBA right now so I'm not worried.

I think a Kirk/Roy backcourt would be absolutely lethal in terms of shooting from distance and capitalizing on the double teams Oden and LMA might see this season.


----------



## BenDavis503

craigehlo said:


> Backup SF is probably the easiest hole to fill in the NBA right now so I'm not worried.
> 
> I think a Kirk/Roy backcourt would be absolutely lethal in terms of shooting from distance and capitalizing on the double teams Oden and LMA might see this season.


Either way, I would rather play Bayless then Hinrich.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

BenDavis503 said:


> You know that is not the real Tech N9ne right? Don't you?


Tech9 posted his site on realgm so it is him.


----------



## BenDavis503

P to the Wee said:


> Tech9 posted his site on realgm so it is him.


Did you not read my post? It is not him man. It is some dude named Victor who works for RealGM.

http://www.rumorpress.net/?page_id=2


> Tech N9ne is the screen name for Victor Bellan on the NBA Basketball site Realgm. Tech broke out onto the scene in 2002 as one of Chicago’s top Bulls Insiders, breaking numerous Bulls stories weeks before the news went public.



Tech 9 real name is Aaron Yates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tech_N9ne


> *Aaron Dontez Yates* (born November 8, 1971 in Kansas City, Missouri) *better known by his stage name Tech N9ne,* is an American rapper. His musical career has spanned 20 years, during which he has performed sold out shows from Los Angeles to New York City. He is also the best selling MC out of his hometown of Kansas City.


IT IS NOT THE RAPPER TECH9 NOOB!!!


----------



## SheedSoNasty

I wonder if the Blazers are feeling that Bayless really wont be a point guard for us and are looking to slip him into a Ben Gordon kind of role off the bench. Otherwise, I feel like our crop of point guards is pretty good.


----------



## meru

We had a thread on Hinrich a while back.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

lol I was talking about the Tech9 from Realgm, not the rapper :lol:

I kinda thought that you were talking about the rapper, but then I didn't


----------



## mediocre man

Ahem.....People need to realize that Kirk Hinrich had a bad year last season. He wouldl become the undisputed best PG on our roster if we acquired him. He is also a good shooter, 3pt shooter and FT shooter. He would easily be our best perimeter defender as well. 

On salary: Hinrich has a beautiful declining salary. Something that will help the Blazers luxury tax number when Roy, Aldridge and Oden are all extended.

Replacing Outlaw: His name is Rudy Fernandez. You might have seen him play in the olympics. He can easily play SF, and guard then as well as Travis does. It also would give Portland yet another ball handler on the court, making it all but impossible to Pressure us. 

Replacing Joel: You do this with Aldridge and Frye. Frye showed last year when Joel went down that he can put up some decent numbers. 

Let's also remember a few things. Joel does not want to be a back up to Oden, which Nate has already said he is going to be. Portland is also building for the future. Losing Joel may hurt a bit this season, but not in the long run. 

Hinrich is probably the best PG we could realistically hope to get on our team. I would consider him in the 2nd tier behind players like Paul and williams, but ahead of players like Blake. It also wouldn't hurt minute distribution because it's a 2 for 1 freeing up minutes for Frye and Rudy can get his minutes at the 3

Hinrich also doesn't command the ball on offense making him a good fit with Roy. 


Obviously I would love this deal for the future of the team. If KP could actually get a pick as well we would be talking about a brilliant move at that point


----------



## STOMP

P to the Wee said:


> Well Tech9 does say that the Bulls are trying to talk the Blazers into taking Ben Gordon so it would be a possibility.


you've got a whole board of diehards telling you these "trades" don't make sense. Portland doesn't need guards at all. If they have any needs it's at SF. Gordon's impending Free Agency and reported expectations of max type dollars make him seem completely unlikely. 

Sorry but Tech9's claims relayed here don't pass the sniff test. 

STOMP


----------



## chairman

All this Tech dude did was take another existing rumour and switched the trading partner to make it sound legit. It is absurd. I suppose if KP really believed Rudy was a SF then it would make SOME sense, but Rudy is not a SF in the NBA.


----------



## BG7

Fernandez is 6'6". He could easily play both the 2/3 positions. I think most shooting guards, who are big enough, easily are able to slide over to small forward. I think Rudy falls into that category.

And Kirk Hinrich was awful last year. It was unbelievable how bad he was. He was also, one of the worst players in the clutch in the NBA last year, (yet Ben Gordon, who I believe was #5 in clutch scoring, and #6 in super clutch scoring is the guy who gets knocked for not being clutch anymore...just because he can't be superman all the time, but just some of the time). I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I think Hinrich's scoring efficiency in the clutch was around 13% and around 7% during the super clutch.

But if you get the 2006-2007 Hinrich, it's an absolute steal of a trade for you guys. And Gordon would be an absolute steal in this trade for you guys as well, although he doesn't make too much sense anymore with Bayless looking strong.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

STOMP said:


> you've got a whole board of diehards telling you these "trades" don't make sense. Portland doesn't need guards at all. If they have any needs it's at SF. Gordon's impending Free Agency and reported expectations of max type dollars make him seem completely unlikely.
> 
> Sorry but Tech9's claims relayed here don't pass the sniff test.
> 
> STOMP


Well the boards don't make the trades, do they 
I guess every GM has to screw up on a trade at some point in their career, but maybe KP has another move up his sleeve.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

chairman said:


> All this Tech dude did was take another existing rumour and switched the trading partner to make it sound legit. It is absurd. I suppose if KP really believed Rudy was a SF then it would make SOME sense, but Rudy is not a SF in the NBA.


That would probably mean that the Blazers are shopping Outlaw


----------



## nikolokolus

P to the Wee said:


> That would probably mean that the Blazers are shopping Outlaw


Frankly I wouldn't be completely surprised, but I would have to think management has something up their sleeves regarding the small forward spot; with the departure of James Jones, and the supposed departure of Outlaw we'd be asking a very green rookie (Nicolas Batum) to provide substantial minutes backing up Martell Webster and this leaves the team completely exposed should somebody go down with an injury.

I guess we'll all just have to wait and see what happens, but for now this trade sounds pretty iffy, and doesn't seem to make a whole helluva lot of sense from Portland's perspective.


----------



## mgb

mediocre man said:


> Replacing Joel: You do this with Aldridge and Frye. Frye showed last year when Joel went down that he can put up some decent numbers.


You can do that short term, not long term especially without knowing how long Oden will be able to stay on the floor. Last year when Joel went out there was a big drop on D. Anyone could go inside on us.



mediocre man said:


> Let's also remember a few things. *Joel does not want to be a back up to Oden,* which Nate has already said he is going to be. Portland is also building for the future. Losing Joel may hurt a bit this season, but not in the long run.


Really? That's news to me. From everything I've heard Joel is more than happy to play as the coach asks him including backing up Oden. He's a team player. Do you by chance have a link to him saying anything about not wanting to backup Oden?


----------



## STOMP

P to the Wee said:


> Well the boards don't make the trades, do they
> I guess every GM has to screw up on a trade at some point in their career, but maybe KP has another move up his sleeve.


that might be possible, but why blow up a club with this sort of potential and positioned as well as they are cap space wise for Ben Gordon?

the other possibility is maybe your guy is just relaying the smoke he's had blown up his backside? Has Tech9 ever been wrong about his relayed info? Is there some sort of reason we should be taking this guy's word without question?

there is no doubt that GM's put all sorts of names into conversations with each other... does that mean that most every guy in the league is constantly on the block? 

STOMP


----------



## Tortimer

P to the Wee said:


> That would probably mean that the Blazers are shopping Outlaw


I really don't think the Blazers are shopping Outlaw. Also usually if you hear a trade rumor there is no way the trade happens. I think both of the rumors with Memphis and the Bulls are just rumors from interest the Blazers had earlier before the drafting of Bayless and Rudy signing.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

STOMP said:


> that might be possible, but why blow up a club with this sort of potential and positioned as well as they are cap space wise for Ben Gordon?
> 
> the other possibility is maybe your guy is just relaying the smoke he's had blown up his backside? Has Tech9 ever been wrong about his relayed info? Is there some sort of reason we should be taking this guy's word without question?
> 
> there is no doubt that GM's put all sorts of names into conversations with each other... does that mean that most every guy in the league is constantly on the block?
> 
> STOMP


Well maybe not for Ben Gordon, but I would prefer it being Ben than Kirk 

Tech has reported a ton of stuff before it's happened. He doesn't report much, but when he does report, it is accurate. The one trade that he has reported that may not happen is the Nocioni/Simmons for Brad Miller.


----------



## STOMP

Tortimer said:


> I really don't think the Blazers are shopping Outlaw. Also usually if you hear a trade rumor there is no way the trade happens. I think both of the rumors with Memphis and the Bulls are just rumors from interest the Blazers had earlier before the drafting of Bayless and Rudy signing.


the source of most rumors is the agents trying to drum up some attention/interest in their client. 

STOMP


----------



## chairman

P to the Wee said:


> but maybe KP has another move up his sleeve.


He always as another move up his sleeve. That goes without saying. It will be interesting to see how big Rudy really is. Hoopshype has him listed at 6'5" 185. That is fine for a FEW minutes at the end of a game at SF. But he is not what I would call a solid 6'5. I see him closer to playing Kirks position than Travis' in limited time.


----------



## BBert

nikolokolus said:


> Frankly I wouldn't be completely surprised, but I would have to think management has something up their sleeves regarding the small forward spot;.


I think his name is "Luke" something or other. :biggrin:


----------



## Minstrel

P to the Wee said:


> If the Bulls do trade Gordon rather than Hinrich, what would you guys think of Gordon, Nocioni, Simmons for Outlaw and Przybilla? If Gordon is in the trade, another one of Chicago's big contracts have to be involved(Hughes,Gooden,Nocioni,Hinrich) due to the BYC.


Gordon is definitely not worth giving up Outlaw and Przybilla for, especially if Portland has to take back a big contract. Gordon is a one-dimensional scorer, and not an elite scorer. In fact, he basically does what Outlaw does, score off the bench, except he's smaller and rebounds less.

And for that Gordon wants a max contract.


----------



## <-=*PdX*=->

I saw Tech N9ne at the Roseland


----------



## drexlersdad

BG7 said:


> Ben Gordon would be the perfect complement to Brandon Roy.
> 
> Although you're right, you guys do have a lot of guards. If you guys didn't get a guy who should have been the #4 pick in the draft, and ended up someone more at your position in the draft, I think you guys would have been gunning hard at getting Gordon.
> 
> Pritchard probably sees it as, Blake becomes a spot bench player.
> 
> PG- Kirk Hinrich
> SG- Brandon Roy
> 
> with Jerryd Bayless as the PG/SG 6th man, like Gordon played a bit for the Bulls, and then Rudy Fernandez as the 2/3 backup.


gordon had a bad year, but he would be DAMN good on the blazers, with all our scorers he would get a ton of open looks.

i know that chicago fans think that they can get alot in a trade for him, but his contract situation is pretty bad over there. you dont see this too often in basketball, basically calling each other out in the media.

chicago has to try and get whatever they can for him.


----------



## BG7

Minstrel said:


> Gordon is definitely not worth giving up Outlaw and Przybilla for, especially if Portland has to take back a big contract. Gordon is a one-dimensional scorer, and not an elite scorer. In fact, he basically does what Outlaw does, score off the bench, except he's smaller and rebounds less.
> 
> And for that Gordon wants a max contract.


Gordon is in a completely different strosphere than Outlaw.

If you were to rank the players on the Blazers in terms of production, and throw Gordon in there, you would probably end up with:

1. Brandon Roy
2. Ben Gordon
3. LaMarcus Aldrdige

Although Oden should, if he pans out, be ahead of Gordon as well.

Travis Outlaw isn't worth crap on the offensive end of the court. He has a 50 TS%. That'd bad. He doesn't score very efficiently. 

Gordon is leaps and bounds better than everyone on the Blazers scoring wise. You guys could definitely use a scorer of Gordon's magnitude on your team. You can't just look at the average, you have to look at their scoring efficiency as well, and Gordon is quite a bit better than Aldridge/Roy in that category too, and that was in Gordon's "bad year".


----------



## #10

I agree with Minstrel, Gordon, while not a bad player, is the type who get overpaid. At $4 million a year, like Outlaw, sure. For the money he wants, no way, he's the next Rashard Lewis. The Blazers already take too many jump shots, he's the last thing the Blazers need. He also doesn't get to the line much. With how good Rudy looks, I'd rather just wait and see what he and Bayless can do.

I also doubt the Blazers give up Prz this season. Even if he really is unhappy being a backup, his minutes probably won't change this season, with Oden's fouls and the Blazers being overly cautious. Someone already said it, but I love the idea of 48 minutes of interior D. There was a huge difference in defense last season with and without Prz, I don't see any reason to trade him yet unless the deal is too good to pass.

The only trade I would go for would be for Nocioni and Hinrich. Something like...
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...456~1994~454~2015&teams=22~22~4~4~4&te=&cash=
Hinrich, Bayless, Sergio
Roy, Rudy
Nocioni, Webster, Batum
Aldridge, Frye, Diogu
Oden, Prz


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Hinrich/Nocioni for LaFrentz/Outlaw?


----------



## Tortimer

BG7 said:


> Gordon is in a completely different strosphere than Outlaw.
> 
> If you were to rank the players on the Blazers in terms of production, and throw Gordon in there, you would probably end up with:
> 
> 1. Brandon Roy
> 2. Ben Gordon
> 3. LaMarcus Aldrdige
> 
> Although Oden should, if he pans out, be ahead of Gordon as well.
> 
> Travis Outlaw isn't worth crap on the offensive end of the court. He has a 50 TS%. That'd bad. He doesn't score very efficiently.
> 
> Gordon is leaps and bounds better than everyone on the Blazers scoring wise. You guys could definitely use a scorer of Gordon's magnitude on your team. You can't just look at the average, you have to look at their scoring efficiency as well, and Gordon is quite a bit better than Aldridge/Roy in that category too, and that was in Gordon's "bad year".


I do agree with Gordon being a better offensive player but I wouldn't say Outlaw isn't worth crap on offense. He is a player that takes and makes many big shots. I haven't watched the Bulls more then 3-4 games a year but there is no one outside of maybe Gorden that I would want to take the last second winning shot. There are quite a few teams/GM's that have been interested in Outlaw. If his offense is crap I doubt NJ, Memphis etc would be interested in him.


----------



## Driew

#10 said:


> I agree with Minstrel, Gordon, while not a bad player, is the type who get overpaid. At $4 million a year, like Outlaw, sure. For the money he wants, no way, he's the next Rashard Lewis. The Blazers already take too many jump shots, he's the last thing the Blazers need. He also doesn't get to the line much. With how good Rudy looks, I'd rather just wait and see what he and Bayless can do.
> 
> I also doubt the Blazers give up Prz this season. Even if he really is unhappy being a backup, his minutes probably won't change this season, with Oden's fouls and the Blazers being overly cautious. Someone already said it, but I love the idea of 48 minutes of interior D. There was a huge difference in defense last season with and without Prz, I don't see any reason to trade him yet unless the deal is too good to pass.
> 
> The only trade I would go for would be for Nocioni and Hinrich. Something like...
> http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...456~1994~454~2015&teams=22~22~4~4~4&te=&cash=
> Hinrich, Bayless, Sergio
> Roy, Rudy
> Nocioni, Webster, Batum
> Aldridge, Frye, Diogu
> Oden, Prz


I'd be happy with that trade personally.


----------



## ProZach

I like Hinrich. But this trade blows.

And I have no interest in the one-dimensional Gordon for this particular team. He is not leaps and bounds over everone on the Blazers roster in scoring. He's the second coming of Steve Francis and Starbury. The fact BG7 thinks Outlaw is worthless on offensive end shows how ignorant he is. I think there's a reason a lot of Chicago fans would rather trade Ben than Kirk. Neither is worth Outlaw and Joel.

Pritchard hasn't done anything close to this stupid, so I don't see him starting now. But all these rumors of getting another PG when we have Blake, Sergio, Bayless, Roy, and Rudy is getting annoying. Trade one or two of them if you're getting another PG in return. Don't trade your bigs away.


----------



## BG7

drexlersdad said:


> gordon had a bad year, but he would be DAMN good on the blazers, with all our scorers he would get a ton of open looks.
> 
> i know that chicago fans think that they can get alot in a trade for him, but his contract situation is pretty bad over there. you dont see this too often in basketball, basically calling each other out in the media.
> 
> chicago has to try and get whatever they can for him.


Agreed, when I say things like, "Bulls better get Rudy Fernandez in a trade involving Gordon", I'm speaking about making this trade feasible in terms of being a passable trade for the Bulls with the goal of being a winning team. But in reality, Gordon's value, due to the situation, isn't that high. And given that Outlaw/Pryzbilla may be all you can get for Gordon (and considering you'd have to give up Nocioni with him, since few teams will take Hughes instead), the trade isn't one I want the Bulls to make, so they need to back away from it.

Personally, I think the Bulls should start the season with Hinrich at PG, and Gordon at SG, both playing heavy minutes, with Rose getting around 20 minutes off the bench or so. Then on December 15th, or whatever this year's trade date thing is, trade Hinrich when you've recouped a lot of his value. Then make the rest of the year an audition to see whether Rose/Gordon work together. 

You never know, Ben Gordon could blow up next year, and Rose doesn't work out, and Rose ends up being the one traded. (Actually, this won't happen, since Rose is from Chicago and the golden boy. Gordon could be averaging 30 PPG on perfect efficiency, while Rose is averaging 5 points and 4 assists, with 3 turnovers, and somehow it would be spun that Gordon is screwing the team over, and that the Bulls need to trade Gordon : D )


----------



## #10

P to the Wee said:


> Hinrich/Nocioni for LaFrentz/Outlaw?


Yep. The Blazers have absolutely no need to trade, and would be better off waiting. If the Bulls are trying to get rid of some of their big contracts so they can resign Gordon, they're not going to be getting the better end of the deal.


----------



## BG7

ProZach said:


> I like Hinrich. But this trade blows.
> 
> And I have no interest in the one-dimensional Gordon for this particular team. He is not leaps and bounds over everone on the Blazers roster in scoring. He's the second coming of Steve Francis and Starbury. The fact BG7 thinks Outlaw is worthless on offensive end shows how ignorant he is. I think there's a reason a lot of Chicago fans would rather trade Ben than Kirk. Neither is worth Outlaw and Joel.
> 
> Pritchard hasn't done anything close to this stupid, so I don't see him starting now. But all these rumors of getting another PG when we have Blake, Sergio, Bayless, Roy, and Rudy is getting annoying. Trade one or two of them if you're getting another PG in return. Don't trade your bigs away.


Travis Outlaw - 50 TS%. It's a fact that Outlaw isn't an efficient scorer. With the exception of bigmen, and lockdown defenders (such as Bruce Bowen, who is more efficient than Outlaw actually, ranging from below average to slightly above average in recent years). I only watched maybe 5-6 Blazers games last year, so maybe Outlaw makes some big shots. But overall, he isn't a guy you can depend on for offense.

It's really simple in building a basketball team. Get a good defensive anchor big man (you guys have that in Oden), then surround that anchor with a playmaker (you guys have that in Roy), and then with efficient scorers all around, with at least one of these guys being able to score efficiently in volume. You guys don't quite have that right now. Although I wouldn't count Brandon Roy/LaMarcus Aldrdige out yet, as their scoring efficiencies are pretty much in line with Gordon's 1st/2nd years, although it isn't a given that they take the step up either, as there is a laundry list of players who never made that step up.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

BG7 said:


> Agreed, when I say things like, "Bulls better get Rudy Fernandez in a trade involving Gordon", I'm speaking about making this trade feasible in terms of being a passable trade for the Bulls with the goal of being a winning team. But in reality, Gordon's value, due to the situation, isn't that high. And given that Outlaw/Pryzbilla may be all you can get for Gordon (and considering you'd have to give up Nocioni with him, since few teams will take Hughes instead), the trade isn't one I want the Bulls to make, so they need to back away from it.
> 
> Personally, I think the Bulls should start the season with Hinrich at PG, and Gordon at SG, both playing heavy minutes, with Rose getting around 20 minutes off the bench or so. Then on December 15th, or whatever this year's trade date thing is, trade Hinrich when you've recouped a lot of his value. Then make the rest of the year an audition to see whether Rose/Gordon work together.
> 
> You never know, Ben Gordon could blow up next year, and Rose doesn't work out, and Rose ends up being the one traded. (Actually, this won't happen, since Rose is from Chicago and the golden boy. Gordon could be averaging 30 PPG on perfect efficiency, while Rose is averaging 5 points and 4 assists, with 3 turnovers, and somehow it would be spun that Gordon is screwing the team over, and that the Bulls need to trade Gordon : D )


Rose being traded? lol

There is no way the Bulls give Rose 2 months to prove he's worth the number 1 pick. There is no deadline for Hinrich to be traded. There is only one for someone who's just re-signed a contract the previous off-season.


----------



## ProZach

BG7 said:


> Travis Outlaw - 50 TS%.


I don't know what TS% is. Nor do I care. I've watched every Blazer game for as long as I can remember and I know he is a good offensive player. 



BG7 said:


> I only watched maybe 5-6 Blazers games last year, so maybe Outlaw makes some big shots. But overall, he isn't a guy you can depend on for offense.


You only watched 5-6 Blazer games last year and think you know what you're talking about? His offense is the best part of his game...





BG7 said:


> It's really simple in building a basketball team. Get a good defensive anchor big man (you guys have that in Oden), then surround that anchor with a playmaker (you guys have that in Roy), and then with efficient scorers all around, with at least one of these guys being able to score efficiently in volume. You guys don't quite have that right now. Although I wouldn't count Brandon Roy/LaMarcus Aldrdige out yet, as their scoring efficiencies are pretty much in line with Gordon's 1st/2nd years, although it isn't a given that they take the step up either, as there is a laundry list of players who never made that step up.


How can you assume to know that we don't quite have that right now? They haven't even gotten to training camp yet since adding Rudy, Bayless, and ODEN. We have plenty of scorers, Gordon is literally the last thing we need. 

You sound like a used car salesman trying to sell us on some piece of **** with a nice paint job. No means no.


----------



## Da_O

#10 said:


> I agree with Minstrel, Gordon, while not a bad player, is the type who get overpaid. At $4 million a year, like Outlaw, sure. For the money he wants, no way, he's the next Rashard Lewis. The Blazers already take too many jump shots, he's the last thing the Blazers need. He also doesn't get to the line much. With how good Rudy looks, I'd rather just wait and see what he and Bayless can do.
> 
> I also doubt the Blazers give up Prz this season. Even if he really is unhappy being a backup, his minutes probably won't change this season, with Oden's fouls and the Blazers being overly cautious. Someone already said it, but I love the idea of 48 minutes of interior D. There was a huge difference in defense last season with and without Prz, I don't see any reason to trade him yet unless the deal is too good to pass.
> 
> The only trade I would go for would be for Nocioni and Hinrich. Something like...
> http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...456~1994~454~2015&teams=22~22~4~4~4&te=&cash=
> Hinrich, Bayless, Sergio
> Roy, Rudy
> Nocioni, Webster, Batum
> Aldridge, Frye, Diogu
> Oden, Prz



I was going to propose that trade. I don't think that deal is bad at all.


----------



## nikolokolus

BBert said:


> I think his name is "Luke" something or other. :biggrin:


excuse me, I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Hell, why don't we just phone up the Bobcats and see if the "stache" is available?


----------



## Draco

BG7 said:


> Although I wouldn't count *Brandon Roy/LaMarcus Aldrdige out yet*, as their scoring efficiencies are pretty much in line with Gordon's 1st/2nd years, although it isn't a given that they take the step up either, as there is a laundry list of players who never made that step up.


I'm glad you give Roy a chance of someday being the player Gordon is, it gives us hope. Everytime I watch Roy I think to myself "Maybe someday he'll be more like Ben Gordon"


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Draco said:


> I'm glad you give Roy a chance of someday being the player Gordon is, it gives us hope. Everytime I watch Roy I think to myself "Maybe someday he'll be more like Ben Gordon"


BG7 is possibly the biggest Ben Gordon homer you could ever find so don't be surprised if you read Ben Gordon being the best player on this planet. I'm a Tyrus Thomas homer though


----------



## chairman

why do I feel like i am in a downtown chicago used car lot with two sales reps trying to convince me that I need to take their unreliable, undersized, and over priced gas guzzler in exchange for my comfortable reliable sporty car that uses half the gas. Will gas prices really improve this year?


----------



## mvP to the Wee

chairman said:


> why do I feel like i am in a downtown chicago used car lot with two sales reps trying to convince me that I need to take their unreliable, undersized, and over priced gas guzzler in exchange for my comfortable reliable sporty car that uses half the gas. Will gas prices really improve this year?


I do think Hinrich for Outlaw/Przybilla is being discussed so you guys not wanting it to happen doesn't change the possibility of it happening. I am however hoping you guys take Ben Gordon instead of Hinrich


----------



## dreamcloud

I hope this entire deal is BS, or KP is just on drugs atm and will realize his senses by tomorrow and keep Joel.


----------



## nikolokolus

P to the Wee said:


> I do think Hinrich for Outlaw/Przybilla is being discussed so you guys not wanting it to happen doesn't change the possibility of it happening. *I am however hoping you guys take Ben Gordon instead of Hinrich *


Sign me up, cause what team doesn't want a 6'3" shooting guard who can't play D, has a streaky jump shot and thinks he's worth 12 million a year?


----------



## Tortimer

P to the Wee said:


> I do think Hinrich for Outlaw/Przybilla is being discussed so you guys not wanting it to happen doesn't change the possibility of it happening. I am however hoping you guys take Ben Gordon instead of Hinrich


Like I have posted earlier I really don't think Joel/Outlaw for Hinrich is being discussed. I'm sure maybe Paxson or KP were discussing a trade for Hinrich before the draft but not now. At least not a trade for 2 bigs for another PG. I think we would have at least half our team that could play PG with only one SF - No Way!!


----------



## mvP to the Wee

nikolokolus said:


> Sign me up, cause what team doesn't want a 6'3" shooting guard who can't play D, has a streaky jump shot and thinks he's worth 12 million a year?


Exactly, players such as Ben Gordon don't come around often


----------



## Tortimer

12 million. I read Gordon turned down close to 12 million a year(5 year contract). I think he wants at least 14 million.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Tortimer said:


> Like I have posted earlier I really don't think Joel/Outlaw for Hinrich is being discussed. I'm sure maybe Paxson or KP were discussing a trade for Hinrich before the draft but not now. At least not a trade for 2 bigs for another PG. I think we would have at least half our team that could play PG with only one SF - No Way!!


I doubt Tech9 would post some old rumor. We'll see what happens during the next few weeks.


----------



## chairman

P to the Wee said:


> I do think Hinrich for Outlaw/Przybilla is being discussed so you guys not wanting it to happen doesn't change the possibility of it happening. I am however hoping you guys take Ben Gordon instead of Hinrich


Thank you Sam Smith.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Tortimer said:


> 12 million. I read Gordon turned down close to 12 million a year(5 year contract). I think he wants at least 14 million.


Last off-season Gordon rejected 5 years 50 million. This year he's being offered 59 million over 6 years. He's never been offered 12 million a year unless I'm forgetting something.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

chairman said:


> Thank you Sam Smith.


lol what happened to that dude? did he retire or something?


----------



## silverpaw1786

Is there a way to merge this thread with the thread from the bulls forum? Bulls fans think it's unfair for them. Blazers fans think it's unfair for them. I want to see you all forced to debate.


----------



## King Joseus

Much ado about nothing.


----------



## Tortimer

P to the Wee said:


> I doubt Tech9 would post some old rumor. We'll see what happens during the next few weeks.


I wouldn't be surprised if KP or Paxson let this leak to try and get more from a different trade. There is just no way Hinrich would work for us with giving up Joel/Outlaw. Trust me!


----------



## mvP to the Wee

silverpaw1786 said:


> Is there a way to merge this thread with the thread from the bulls forum? Bulls fans think it's unfair for them. Blazers fans think it's unfair for them. I want to see you all forced to debate.


Yeah I found that pretty weird as well lol

I told this to my friends who are not Blazers or Bulls fans(one of them Celtics fan, one of them Spurs fan, one of them Knicks fan, and one of them that just watches the NBA and doesn't have a favorite).

The Celtics fan, and the NBA fan think it favors the Blazers.
The Spurs fan thinks it favors the Bulls.
The Knicks fan thinks it favors both teams.


----------



## dreamcloud

We should all be honoring Kevin Duckworth, not talking about this BS trade


----------



## Tortimer

silverpaw1786 said:


> Is there a way to merge this thread with the thread from the bulls forum? Bulls fans think it's unfair for them. Blazers fans think it's unfair for them. I want to see you all forced to debate.


I don't think it is super unfair trade. It is just a trade the Blazers wouldn't make with the roster they have. Most teams don't need half their players being PG's.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Tortimer said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if KP or Paxson let this leak to try and get more from a different trade. There is just no way Hinrich would work for us with giving up Joel/Outlaw. Trust me!


Maybe KP has been seeing Shawn Kemp lately


----------



## dreamcloud

P to the Wee said:


> Yeah I found that pretty weird as well lol
> 
> I told this to my friends who are not Blazers or Bulls fans(one of them Celtics fan, one of them Spurs fan, one of them Knicks fan, and one of them that just watches the NBA and doesn't have a favorite).
> 
> *The Celtics fan, and the NBA fan think it favors the Blazers.*
> The Spurs fan thinks it favors the Bulls.
> *The Knicks fan thinks it favors both teams.*


Just as I suspected, only the Spurs fan is knowledgeable about the game.


----------



## whatsmyname

if you're gonna trade for a pg .......why dont you drop some of our current ones. We have too much.


----------



## Minstrel

P to the Wee said:


> The Celtics fan, and the NBA fan think it favors the Blazers.
> The Spurs fan thinks it favors the Bulls.
> The Knicks fan thinks it favors both teams.


You have exactly one smart friend. I'll leave it as an exercise to you to decide which one.


----------



## nikolokolus

P to the Wee said:


> Yeah I found that pretty weird as well lol
> 
> I told this to my friends who are not Blazers or Bulls fans(one of them Celtics fan, one of them Spurs fan, one of them Knicks fan, and one of them that just watches the NBA and doesn't have a favorite).
> 
> The Celtics fan, and the NBA fan think it favors the Blazers.
> The Spurs fan thinks it favors the Bulls.
> The Knicks fan thinks it favors both teams.


By that metric it's probably a perfect trade.

Honestly I don't "hate" the trade from a talent or value standpoint, but it's the giant holes that it creates for the Blazers in the frontcourt that seem to make it untenable ... I just keep thinking there must be something going on that we haven't heard about, like a 3rd trading partner or something.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

nikolokolus said:


> By that metric it's probably a perfect trade.
> 
> Honestly I don't "hate" the trade from a talent or value standpoint, but it's the giant holes that it creates for the Blazers in the frontcourt that seem to make it untenable ... I just keep thinking there must be something going on that we haven't heard about, like a 3rd trading partner or something.


Josh Howard? AK47? G-Wallace? Tay Prince? Al Harrington? Would a trade with LaFrentz's expiring for one of those guys interest both teams? Just throwing out names of available SF's.


----------



## Tortimer

P to the Wee said:


> Josh Howard? AK47? G-Wallace? Tay Prince? Al Harrington? Would a trade with LaFrentz's expiring for one of those guys interest both teams? Just throwing out names of available SF's.


Sure, I would love to get Prince and maybe Wallace or Howard. Prince would be a perfect fit for the Blazers IMO. I just can't see Dumar's letting him go. I heard Dumars wanted Roy for Prince when KP ask about trading for Prince. I think it probably took a total of about 2 seconds for KP to hangup.


----------



## nikolokolus

P to the Wee said:


> Josh Howard? AK47? G-Wallace? Tay Prince? Al Harrington? Would a trade with LaFrentz's expiring for one of those guys interest both teams? Just throwing out names of available SF's.


I'd love Tayshaun Prince or Josh Howard (and even Gerald Wallace) ... but hard to see any of those guys being available.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Tortimer said:


> Sure, I would love to get Prince and maybe Wallace or Howard. Prince would be a perfect fit for the Blazers IMO. I just can't see Dumar's letting him go. I heard Dumars wanted Roy for Prince when KP ask about trading for Prince. I think it probably took a total of about 2 seconds for KP to hangup.


Haha this Piston dude I know on this one forum told me Rip and Sheed for Roy and Aldridge would be fair. He said that 6 straight ECF made both of them valuable.

Of course this guy lives in his mom's basement and collects checks from the government, which would explain his ridiculous trade ideas


----------



## chairman

I wouldn't doubt that the Bulls are trying to get Rudy. Maybe this was discussed several pages back, but I see no reason why they would want another SF. Isn't SG what they lack? They are probably dangling Kirk to see if KP is interested at all. I am guessing no.


----------



## PapaG

P to the Wee said:


> That would probably mean that the Blazers are shopping Outlaw


For the garbage deals I've seen offered the past few days? :lol:


----------



## mvP to the Wee

chairman said:


> I wouldn't doubt that the Bulls are trying to get Rudy. Maybe this was discussed several pages back, but I see no reason why they would want another SF. Isn't SG what they lack? They are probably dangling Kirk to see if KP is interested at all. I am guessing no.


The title of the his rumor says the Blazers offered Outlaw to the Bulls so KP probably started the talks. He also says the Bulls are reluctant to trade Hinrich which would further prove that Blazers came up with the offer.


----------



## Minstrel

To be perfectly honest, the only player on the Bulls I'm interested in is Luol Deng. Unless he's on the table, I don't see any real match.


----------



## Minstrel

P to the Wee said:


> The title of the his rumor says the Blazers offered Outlaw to the Bulls so KP probably started the talks. He also says the Bulls are reluctant to trade Hinrich which would further prove that Blazers came up with the offer.


Unless the report is, you know...wrong.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Minstrel said:


> To be perfectly honest, the only player on the Bulls I'm interested in is Luol Deng. Unless he's on the table, I don't see any real match.


We would never trade LUOLZ!!!!


----------



## Balian

With the performance in the gold medal game, I am sure Rudy Fernandez is wanted by many NBA teams right now. Chicago is trying to stir the pot. KP will not take the bait. LOL


----------



## chairman

Minstrel said:


> Unless the report is, you know...wrong.


LOL! Exactly what I was thinking. I mean seriously what percenatge of these rumors of "discussions" are accurate. Let alone completely accurate. Maybe 5%


----------



## SheedSoNasty

Don't we already have a Ben Gordon type of player in Jerryd Bayless?


----------



## dreamcloud

SheedSoNasty said:


> Don't we already have a Ben Gordon type of player in Jerryd Bayless?


Under rookie contract as well, unlike Ben 12+ million Gordon


----------



## BG7

Also, for the record, I think Brandon Roy is a better overall player than Gordon, Gordon is a better overall player than Aldridge. Gordon is just a better SCORER than those two.

Wow at the guy saying that offense is the best part of Outlaw's games. If that's the best he has going for him, well I don't know what to say. The stats don't lie. Just because you don't care about a stat doesn't mean it's not a great metric to measure a player by. Just because you imagine that Outlaw is a good offensive player, doesn't make him one. You don't have a TS% of 50 if you are a good offensive player. You have to be a pretty bad offensive player to get that. 

Gordon, Nocioni, Deng, Noah, Gray, Deng, Joe Smith, Drew Gooden, Chris Duhon, and Kirk Hinrich were all more efficient scorers than the Blazers.

So just based on my interpretations of their TS%, this is where the guys fall.

1. Ben Gordon - Good scoring efficiency.
2. Andres Nocioni - Pretty good scoring efficiency.
3. Joakim Noah - Slightly above average scoring efficiency, low volume scorer.
4. Aaron Gray - Average scoring efficiency, low volume scorer.
5. Luol Deng - Average scoring efficiency.
6. Drew Gooden - Below average scoring efficiency.
7. Chris Duhon - bad scoring efficiency.
8. Kirk Hinrich - very poor scoring efficiency, hardly cutting it.
9. Thabo Sefolosha - so bad, he shouldn't see floor time.
10. Tyrus Thomas - so bad, so bad, send him to the D-League.
11. Larry Hughes - you have to be kidding me, how the hell is this guy in the league!
12. Ben Wallace - this has to be the most inefficient scorer in the history of the league!

Look at that. Not hard to see why the Bulls sucked last year. They didn't score efficiently. Why Nocioni/Gordon, the Bulls only two scorers with any kind of good scoring efficiency last year, are the two guys that all fans are trying to ship out of town is beyond me. Completely idiotic imo.

Same metric on the Trailblazers.

1. James Jones - Elite efficiency.
2. Joel Pryzbilla - Elite efficiency.
3. Jarrett Jack - good efficiency.
4. Martell Webster - pretty good efficiency.
5. Brandon Roy - average scoring efficiency.
6. Channing Frye - average scoring efficiency.
7. LaMarcus Aldridge - very slightly below average scoring efficiency.
8. Steve Blake - slightly below average scoring efficiency.
9. Travis Outlaw - bad scoring efficiency, right on the unacceptable mark.
10. Raef Lafrentz - take a seat on the bench, and never come off.
11. Sergio Rodriguez - GTFO of the league...well you won't be staying long anyhow.

See how the Blazers are clearly better across the board than the Bulls. No surprise, they were better than the Bulls last year. The Blazers are an interesting case, since they had a quartet of role players that were their most efficient players, while their two stars were average for the most part, and Greg Oden is a wildcard. If Roy/Aldridge can get in that 55-56% range next year, and the role players (although you traded some of those guys already!) keep their elite efficiency, then it would easily be expected for the Blazers to make the leap up to at least around 50 wins.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

chairman said:


> LOL! Exactly what I was thinking. I mean seriously what percenatge of these rumors o discussions are accurate. Let alone completely accurate. Maybe 5%


Tech9 is one of those few people that post few rumors, but accurate rumors.

This is everything that he's reported coming from his profile on his site:



> Tech is noted for breaking several stories days and sometimes weeks before major newspapers had picked up on the stories. Such information includes the Donyell Marshall signing, both Jalen Rose trades, the Eddie Robinson signing, the Jamal Crawford trade, Hoops the Gym information such as Roger Mason Jr’s injury, draft choices such as the picks of Gordon and Deng, fights and confrontations in practice, the Tyson Chandler trade among many other news, information and rumors.
> 
> Most recently Tech broke the Ben Wallace for Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden trade. Tech announced the potential deal in December of 2007, almost a full two months before the trade finally went through and was by the far the first person to announce the trade.


----------



## Tortimer

SheedSoNasty said:


> Don't we already have a Ben Gordon type of player in Jerryd Bayless?



I know Gordon is already shown he is a real good outside shooter but I actually like Bayless(upside) better because he can drive to the basket and seems to get his shot off in traffic. The Blazers need more players that can drive to the basket and make a shot. We have Roy and Bayless and maybe Rudy look like they can.


----------



## chairman

P to the Wee said:


> This is everything that he's reported coming from his profile on his site:


What's wrong with that picture? 

Anyway thanks for your contribution tonight P Wee. It was fun if nothing else.


----------



## Tortimer

BG7 said:


> Also, for the record, I think Brandon Roy is a better overall player than Gordon, Gordon is a better overall player than Aldridge. Gordon is just a better SCORER than those two.
> 
> Wow at the guy saying that offense is the best part of Outlaw's games. If that's the best he has going for him, well I don't know what to say. The stats don't lie. Just because you don't care about a stat doesn't mean it's not a great metric to measure a player by. Just because you imagine that Outlaw is a good offensive player, doesn't make him one. You don't have a TS% of 50 if you are a good offensive player. You have to be a pretty bad offensive player to get that.
> 
> Gordon, Nocioni, Deng, Noah, Gray, Deng, Joe Smith, Drew Gooden, Chris Duhon, and Kirk Hinrich were all more efficient scorers than the Blazers.
> 
> So just based on my interpretations of their TS%, this is where the guys fall.
> 
> 1. Ben Gordon - Good scoring efficiency.
> 2. Andres Nocioni - Pretty good scoring efficiency.
> 3. Joakim Noah - Slightly above average scoring efficiency, low volume scorer.
> 4. Aaron Gray - Average scoring efficiency, low volume scorer.
> 5. Luol Deng - Average scoring efficiency.
> 6. Drew Gooden - Below average scoring efficiency.
> 7. Chris Duhon - bad scoring efficiency.
> 8. Kirk Hinrich - very poor scoring efficiency, hardly cutting it.
> 9. Thabo Sefolosha - so bad, he shouldn't see floor time.
> 10. Tyrus Thomas - so bad, so bad, send him to the D-League.
> 11. Larry Hughes - you have to be kidding me, how the hell is this guy in the league!
> 12. Ben Wallace - this has to be the most inefficient scorer in the history of the league!
> 
> Look at that. Not hard to see why the Bulls sucked last year. They didn't score efficiently. Why Nocioni/Gordon, the Bulls only two scorers with any kind of good scoring efficiency last year, are the two guys that all fans are trying to ship out of town is beyond me. Completely idiotic imo.
> 
> Same metric on the Trailblazers.
> 
> 1. James Jones - Elite efficiency.
> 2. Joel Pryzbilla - Elite efficiency.
> 3. Jarrett Jack - good efficiency.
> 4. Martell Webster - pretty good efficiency.
> 5. Brandon Roy - average scoring efficiency.
> 6. Channing Frye - average scoring efficiency.
> 7. LaMarcus Aldridge - very slightly below average scoring efficiency.
> 8. Steve Blake - slightly below average scoring efficiency.
> 9. Travis Outlaw - bad scoring efficiency, right on the unacceptable mark.
> 10. Raef Lafrentz - take a seat on the bench, and never come off.
> 11. Sergio Rodriguez - GTFO of the league...well you won't be staying long anyhow.
> 
> See how the Blazers are clearly better across the board than the Bulls. No surprise, they were better than the Bulls last year. The Blazers are an interesting case, since they had a quartet of role players that were their most efficient players, while their two stars were average for the most part, and Greg Oden is a wildcard. If Roy/Aldridge can get in that 55-56% range next year, and the role players (although you traded some of those guys already!) keep their elite efficiency, then it would easily be expected for the Blazers to make the leap up to at least around 50 wins.


I'm not sure what TS% stand for either but from how you rated the players on the Blazers from that stat I wouldn't put much stock in it. I wouldn't consider any of the top 4 players to be efficient scorers. I have watched I think every game that all of these players have played for the Blazers and the only one that I would consider a efficient scorer is Jones and he is more inconsistent then Outlaw.


----------



## nikolokolus

BG7 said:


> Also, for the record, I think Brandon Roy is a better overall player than Gordon, Gordon is a better overall player than Aldridge. Gordon is just a better SCORER than those two.
> 
> Wow at the guy saying that offense is the best part of Outlaw's games. If that's the best he has going for him, well I don't know what to say. The stats don't lie. Just because you don't care about a stat doesn't mean it's not a great metric to measure a player by. Just because you imagine that Outlaw is a good offensive player, doesn't make him one. You don't have a TS% of 50 if you are a good offensive player. You have to be a pretty bad offensive player to get that.
> 
> Gordon, Nocioni, Deng, Noah, Gray, Deng, Joe Smith, Drew Gooden, Chris Duhon, and Kirk Hinrich were all more efficient scorers than the Blazers.
> 
> So just based on my interpretations of their TS%, this is where the guys fall.
> 
> 1. Ben Gordon - Good scoring efficiency.
> 2. Andres Nocioni - Pretty good scoring efficiency.
> 3. Joakim Noah - Slightly above average scoring efficiency, low volume scorer.
> 4. Aaron Gray - Average scoring efficiency, low volume scorer.
> 5. Luol Deng - Average scoring efficiency.
> 6. Drew Gooden - Below average scoring efficiency.
> 7. Chris Duhon - bad scoring efficiency.
> 8. Kirk Hinrich - very poor scoring efficiency, hardly cutting it.
> 9. Thabo Sefolosha - so bad, he shouldn't see floor time.
> 10. Tyrus Thomas - so bad, so bad, send him to the D-League.
> 11. Larry Hughes - you have to be kidding me, how the hell is this guy in the league!
> 12. Ben Wallace - this has to be the most inefficient scorer in the history of the league!
> 
> Look at that. Not hard to see why the Bulls sucked last year. They didn't score efficiently. Why Nocioni/Gordon, the Bulls only two scorers with any kind of good scoring efficiency last year, are the two guys that all fans are trying to ship out of town is beyond me. Completely idiotic imo.
> 
> Same metric on the Trailblazers.
> 
> 1. James Jones - Elite efficiency.
> *2. Joel Pryzbilla - Elite efficiency.*
> 3. Jarrett Jack - good efficiency.
> 4. Martell Webster - pretty good efficiency.
> 5. Brandon Roy - average scoring efficiency.
> 6. Channing Frye - average scoring efficiency.
> 7. LaMarcus Aldridge - very slightly below average scoring efficiency.
> 8. Steve Blake - slightly below average scoring efficiency.
> *9. Travis Outlaw - bad scoring efficiency, right on the unacceptable mark.*
> 10. Raef Lafrentz - take a seat on the bench, and never come off.
> 11. Sergio Rodriguez - GTFO of the league...well you won't be staying long anyhow.
> 
> See how the Blazers are clearly better across the board than the Bulls. No surprise, they were better than the Bulls last year. The Blazers are an interesting case, since they had a quartet of role players that were their most efficient players, while their two stars were average for the most part, and Greg Oden is a wildcard. If Roy/Aldridge can get in that 55-56% range next year, and the role players (although you traded some of those guys already!) keep their elite efficiency, then it would easily be expected for the Blazers to make the leap up to at least around 50 wins.


This is why stats have to be accompanied by a "naked eye" test. Joel Przybilla is not an offensive threat more than 5 feet from the basket, has bad hands recieving passes, has terrible ball handling skills, no jumper and is only effective on put backs and the occasional dunk. Travis on the other hand you would be amazed by the number of times he hit shots from about a foot inside the 3 point line last year, if he'd only taken a step back to fire up his shot his TS% would have been substantially different ... generally I would agree that he's not a lights out shooter though.

None of this really matters anyway since the crap we say or write has zero bearing on the decsions that John Paxon (Jerry Reinsdorf really) and Kevin Pritchard make.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

chairman said:


> What's wrong with that picture?
> 
> Anyway thanks for your contribution tonight P Wee. It was fun if nothing else.


Yeah it's been a while since I've been in an active basketball discussion on here. The Bulls forums have been pretty dead lately, so I'm glad that the Blazers forums are this active to discuss this rumor.


----------



## King Joseus

chairman said:


> What's wrong with that picture?
> 
> Anyway thanks for your contribution tonight P Wee. It was fun if nothing else.


While I see what you're saying, I don't think your point is as valid as you think. If you talk to the Bulls fans who are on RealGM, they can verify these things that he's written on his site.

All the same, though, this really didn't need an eight page thread.


----------



## BG7

Well if the Bulls forums mods didn't squash a lot of potential discussion, it would be more active.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

BG7 said:


> Well if the Bulls forums mods didn't squash a lot of potential discussion, it would be more active.


I don't see a problem with any of the Bulls mods. I don't have a problem with any of them unlike Realgm where most of the mods(dougthonus and TB1 being the exception) think they are superior to others.


----------



## HispanicCausinPanic

All this over this?? And who is this fool who came on here and is claiming that PRYZ has ELITE EFFICIENCY when it comes to scoring?!?!?!?!?!? That right there should have been enough to lock this BS thread down! I know how guys get crazy on here when a trade rumor comes up, but this is getting ridiculous!


----------



## PapaG

BG7 said:


> And given that Outlaw/Pryzbilla may be all you can get for Gordon (and considering you'd have to give up Nocioni with him, since few teams will take Hughes instead), the trade isn't one I want the Bulls to make, so they need to back away from it.


May be all you can get???

Outlaw is basically a larger Gordon who has length and is short on the minutes of Gordon, and Pyrz averaged more rebounds than anyone on the Bulls' roster last season per/48.

This trade is a steal for Chicago. Trading a 6'7" scorer for a 6'9" scorer and then a no-defense scoring SG for a 7' rebounder/shot-blocker does not make any sense to me.

Terrible deal for Portland IMO considering Oden's uncertain health. If Oden is 100%, then I might consider an Outlaw/Pyrz deal for Hinrich and Nocioni. But Gordon would never enter the equation to me. 

Why does every proposed deal have the Blazers giving up athletic tall players for smaller players???


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Anyways, lets get back on to the discussion instead of talking about the Bulls forums


----------



## BG7

PapaG said:


> May be all you can get???
> 
> Outlaw is basically a larger Gordon who has length and is short on the minutes of Gordon, and Pyrz averaged more rebounds than anyone on the Bulls' roster last season per/48.
> 
> This trade is a steal for Chicago. Trading a 6'7" scorer for a 6'9" scorer and then a no-defense scoring SG for a 7' rebounder/shot-blocker does not make any sense to me.
> 
> Terrible deal for Portland IMO considering Oden's uncertain health. If Oden is 100%, then I might consider an Outlaw/Pyrz deal for Hinrich and Nocioni. But Gordon would never enter the equation to me.
> 
> Why does every proposed deal have the Blazers giving up athletic tall players for smaller players???


Trading a higher volume scorer with a much greater scoring efficiency for a lower volume scorer, with a much lower scoring efficiency, who would be #3, on our small forward depth chart best case scenario, maybe #4 even if Thabo pans out, is not a steal of a trade. It's a dumb trade.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

BG7 said:


> Trading a higher volume scorer with a much greater scoring efficiency for a lower volume scorer, with a much lower scoring efficiency, who would be #3, on our small forward depth chart best case scenario, maybe #4 even if Thabo pans out, is not a steal of a trade. It's a dumb trade.


If we trade Nocioni, how could he still be our backup SF?


----------



## King Joseus

BG7 said:


> Well if the Bulls forums mods didn't squash a lot of potential discussion, it would be more active.


Cheap shot. Stop plugging your site.


----------



## BG7

HispanicCausinPanic said:


> All this over this?? And who is this fool who came on here and is claiming that PRYZ has ELITE EFFICIENCY when it comes to scoring?!?!?!?!?!? That right there should have been enough to lock this BS thread down! I know how guys get crazy on here when a trade rumor comes up, but this is getting ridiculous!


It's not that hard to understand. With the opportunities Pryzbilla has to score the ball, he uses those opportunities well. He might not be the most crafty scorer, or the most talented, but he makes good use of his scoring opportunities. 

Of course if you increase the volume of shots Pryzbilla takes, his efficiency might go down. But for the shots he does take, he is an elite scorer efficiency wise. He just probably can't do it in a high volume manner. Do you know what this makes Pryzbilla? A pretty good role player. 

It's not that hard to understand. You look at scoring efficiency. Then you look at what volume they are doing that scoring efficiency at, and then make your judgments off that. 

Whether a player is a good scorer isn't too hard to determine. The stats for it are so great, that you can easily determine who is a better scorer for the most part. 

Joel Pryzbilla is an elite scorer efficiency wise. He doesn't do it in any terms of great volume though. He's not a great scorer, but he's an efficient one.

This stuff really isn't too hard to understand.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

King Joseus said:


> Cheap shot. Stop plugging your site.


E-BEEF!! 

Who's going to be taken under the buss? :biggrin:


----------



## BG7

King Joseus said:


> Cheap shot. Stop plugging your site.


So it's alright for a Community Mod to plug his site, but not a regular joe poster? (Well above regular joe, read that <-- premium member).


----------



## HispanicCausinPanic

STOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go AWAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Could Outlaw play the SG occasionally?


----------



## mvP to the Wee

HispanicCausinPanic said:


> STOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go AWAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Who you talking to? lol


----------



## dreamcloud

P to the Wee said:


> Could Outlaw play the SG occasionally?


No. Because he won't be on the Bulls. Neither will Joel.


----------



## Tortimer

P to the Wee said:


> Could Outlaw play the SG occasionally?


No Outlaw couldn't play SG. He can only play the SF/PF postion. He is actually a real tough player for a true PF to guard.


----------



## PorterIn2004

Tortimer said:


> No Outlaw couldn't play SG. He can only play the SF/PF postion. He is actually a real tough player for a true PF to guard.


I disagree. He's done a really nice job guarding Bryant over four or five possessions several times in the last few years. 

It's true he doesn't really have the handles a SG should have but if you've got a Nash-like PG (like Rose might become) or a SF who can help with those duties, it could be just fine.


----------



## dreamcloud

PorterIn2004 said:


> I disagree. He's done a really nice job guarding Bryant over four or five possessions several times in the last few years.
> 
> It's true he doesn't really have the handles a SG should have but if you've got a Nash-like PG (like Rose might become) or a SF who can help with those duties, it could be just fine.


This deal will not happen, so it's all good.


----------



## nikolokolus

P to the Wee said:


> Could Outlaw play the SG occasionally?


It depends, would he be required to dribble to his left?


----------



## mvP to the Wee

dreamcloud said:


> This deal will not happen, so it's all good.


Thanks for telling us if the trade would happen, Kevin Pritchard.


----------



## ebott

I gotta think where there's smoke there's fire. Two days in a row we're hearing rumors of Outlaw being offered for a point guard. I'm with the people that say there's gotta be something else going on here. 

I just don't get that we need a point guard so bad.

Especially with this Joel and Outlaw for Hinrich trade idea. I can't imagine that we'd just do that deal and be happy. Talent for talent I think it's a good deal for both teams. But for us we end up way out of balance.

The other idea that came to me is that due to Rudy's performance in the Olympics maybe we're desperate to deal Outlaw so we can free up some playing time for him. We could have a 1 through 3 lineup something like this...

3- Webster (30), Rudy (18)
2- Roy (35), Rudy (13)
1- Hinrich (35), Blake (13)

But then Bayless doesn't play at all and we're down to just Frye and Diogu as our reserve big men. The whole thing just doesn't make sense to me. But what the hell do I know?


----------



## KingSpeed

Why are we trading Outlaw for PG???

Bayless/Roy/Rudy is our backcourt of the future!


----------



## Ballscientist

*Rumor means shooting a bird randomly.*Both Ben Gordon and Hinrich worths MLE. Blazers fall in love with bad contracts?


----------



## B-Roy

Ballscientist said:


> *Rumor means shooting a bird randomly.*
> 
> Both Ben Gordon and Hinrich worths MLE. Blazers fall in love with bad contracts?


And this is coming from you? :lol:


----------



## wastro

I don't this has any legs. To wit:

The proposed trade would create an insane logjam in the backcourt: Kirk, Blake, Bayless, Roy, Sergio and Rudy fighting for PG/SG minutes? Yikes.

The proposed trade also leaves the Blazers thinner than thin at the center position. Let's pin our hopes on a rookie coming off serious knee surgery. And his backup will be a stiff who hasn't been that effective for at least three years now.

The trade would also give Martell no back-ups. Well, there would be Batum, but he's raw. You could also theoretically slide Rudy or Brandon to the SF slot, but when you have Travis doing his thing (and doing it well), why mess with a good thing?

The trade, as it stands, wouldn't happen.


----------



## Ed O

ebott said:


> I gotta think where there's smoke there's fire. Two days in a row we're hearing rumors of Outlaw being offered for a point guard. I'm with the people that say there's gotta be something else going on here.


Uh... yes. The Memphis beat reporter says that Portland has been calling, and some Blazers posters call it fabricated.

Now a rather legit internet source says that Portland has been calling Chicago, and the same Blazers posters are calling it fabricated.

Maybe teams around the NBA, and the news sources that report on them, are all out to sell papers by reporting old or fake news about the Blazers, but I think it's much more likely that Pritchard is doind what he does best: make phone calls.



> I just don't get that we need a point guard so bad.
> 
> Especially with this Joel and Outlaw for Hinrich trade idea. I can't imagine that we'd just do that deal and be happy. Talent for talent I think it's a good deal for both teams. But for us we end up way out of balance.


I think that IF the Blazers think Hinrich is a big step up (and he might be a huge upgrade over Blake in the starting lineup), then it makes sense. Portland can sign or trade for a backup small forward, or use Rudy, and stay at close to the level of Outlaw... not in terms of net present value (since Outlaw still has considerable upside) but in terms of what he gives the team as a backup small forward right now.

Ed O.


----------



## Schilly

I don't think it has legs as reported... But it could have legs.


----------



## Schilly

FWIW Wd, I believe that KP has no interest in going into camp as is. There's a reason we are bringing in Luke Jackson, and it's not to be a camp cut, it's to back up whoever is left at the 3 between Webster and Outlaw.

Just MO.


----------



## Sambonius

Ed O said:


> Now a rather legit internet source says that Portland has been calling Chicago, and the same Blazers posters are calling it fabricated.


I don't think you're differentiating what posters think is fabricated and what isn't. I think most here believe that there have been discussions but the deal as it is reported, is not seriously being discussed between the two teams. And why should they? Just look at the Lowry deal, and look at this one. Neither satisfy what the fans want. Of course fans are going to call out a bunk deal when they see one.


----------



## Sambonius

Schilly said:


> There's a reason we are bringing in Luke Jackson, and it's not to be a camp cut, it's to back up whoever is left at the 3 between Webster and Outlaw.
> 
> Just MO.


Really? You're sure of this? Luke Jackson hasn't been able to backup anyone in the NBA consistently, not even being a backup of a backup. I don't think anyone in their right mind plans on having him be a primary backup small forward.


----------



## Schilly

Luke would split time with Batum... Not sure I love it either, but I think it's a backup plan.

BTW IMO if we are getting a player like Hinrich back we need to move a guard to make room for him. If we are sending a SF to Chicago they need to move a SF to make room for him. They would be wanting a Guard capable of Starting but more likely content with backing up Rose.

Blake, Joel and Travis/Martel
for
Hinrich and Nocioni


----------



## STOMP

BG7 said:


> It's not that hard to understand. With the opportunities Pryzbilla has to score the ball, he uses those opportunities well. He might not be the most crafty scorer, or the most talented, but he makes good use of his scoring opportunities.


no he doesn't. Passes to him that should be assists are TOs more often then not. His positive contributions are on the boards and guarding the paint. Ask any Blazer fan.

STOMP


----------



## PapaG

Schilly said:


> FWIW Wd, I believe that KP has no interest in going into camp as is. There's a reason we are bringing in Luke Jackson, and it's not to be a camp cut, it's to back up whoever is left at the 3 between Webster and Outlaw.
> 
> Just MO.



Really???

Luke Jackson with the bad back and even worse game is going to back up either Travis Outlaw or Martell Webster?

I don't see it. I don't see it at all. Jackson's another body in practice during camp.


----------



## PapaG

Schilly said:


> Luke would split time with Batum... Not sure I love it either, but I think it's a backup plan.


It's not a backup plan, it's a desperation plan.

That said, I'd consider a Batum for Kyle Lowry trade to tie in another lengthy thread.


----------



## #10

BG7 said:


> It's not that hard to understand. With the opportunities Pryzbilla has to score the ball, he uses those opportunities well. He might not be the most crafty scorer, or the most talented, but he makes good use of his scoring opportunities.
> 
> Of course if you increase the volume of shots Pryzbilla takes, his efficiency might go down. But for the shots he does take, he is an elite scorer efficiency wise. He just probably can't do it in a high volume manner. Do you know what this makes Pryzbilla? A pretty good role player.
> 
> It's not that hard to understand. You look at scoring efficiency. Then you look at what volume they are doing that scoring efficiency at, and then make your judgments off that.
> 
> Whether a player is a good scorer isn't too hard to determine. The stats for it are so great, that you can easily determine who is a better scorer for the most part.
> 
> Joel Pryzbilla is an elite scorer efficiency wise. He doesn't do it in any terms of great volume though. He's not a great scorer, but he's an efficient one.
> 
> This stuff really isn't too hard to understand.


It's easy to understand, but stats always need to be accompanied by scouting. In this case, scoring efficiency doesn't take into account that Prz has bad bad hands, which would bump his efficiency stats down some. I do agree though, he's still an efficient, effective role player, much more on defense than offense. Which makes you wonder why Portland would even consider trading him for an overpaid chucker...

As for the Bayless - Gordon comparisons, Gordon takes a lot of jump shots, which I don't see Bayless doing (fortunately).


----------



## Sambonius

Schilly said:


> Luke would split time with Batum... Not sure I love it either, but I think it's a backup plan.
> 
> BTW IMO if we are getting a player like Hinrich back we need to move a guard to make room for him. If we are sending a SF to Chicago they need to move a SF to make room for him. They would be wanting a Guard capable of Starting but more likely content with backing up Rose.
> 
> Blake, Joel and Travis/Martel
> for
> Hinrich and Nocioni


I like what Nocioni can bring as a player for the Blazers FAR more than what Hinrich can. For the money, Blake is a more valuable commodity than Hinrich. I would be very surprised to see the Blazers pay for a guy with a contract as bad as Kirk's. For the money, Blake, Joel, and Martell more valuable than Kirk.


----------



## PapaG

Sambonius said:


> I like what Nocioni can bring as a player for the Blazers FAR more than what Hinrich can. For the money, Blake is a more valuable commodity than Hinrich. I would be very surprised to see the Blazers pay for a guy with a contract as bad as Kirk's. *For the money, Blake, Joel, and Martell more valuable than Kirk*.



Outlaw has to be added to this list making it a perfect 4/4, especially considering that Martell is in the final year of his deal.


----------



## NateBishop3

I think it's funny because last summer this trade proposal would have been laughed off the forum... by the Bulls fans. Outlaw and Prz for Hinrich? That would have been a steal last summer, so what's changed? He had one bad season, but he wasn't the only one. The Bulls, as a whole, were terrible last year. All of them. They fired their coach, they got the #1 draft pick, and now they're looking to shake things up a bit.

Personally, I have always had my eye on Kirk Hinrich. He's a bigger guard at 6'3, he can defend, and he can shoot. So what if he had ONE bad year in five. In '06-'07 he averaged 16.6 pts, 6.3 assts, 3.4 boards, and he shot 41.5% from downtown. Yes, he had a significant drop last year, but that was only one season. Three of his first four years in the league he was solid. I think Hinrich is EXACTLY the kind of point guard this team needs. The only reason the Bulls are looking to move him is because they drafted Rose. Period. 

Yes, it would throw our roster into upheaval, but that would be why KP is doing it now, in August, to give himself more time to balance things out. Trust me, if this trade went down, others would follow. Let's say the trade is as it was proposed:

Outlaw and Prz for Hinrich and a 1st rounder.

PG Hinrich, Blake, Bayless, Sergio
SG Roy, Rudy
SF Webster, Batum
PF Aldridge, Frye, Diogu
C Oden. LaFrentz

This would give us two available slots for our roster. I have felt that KP would start to make moves if he felt that next summer wouldn't yield us a big name free agent. Most of the restricted free agents signed (Iggy, Josh Smith, Childress, etc) so I think it's verry possible that KP is making his move now, before training camp opens. 

This trade would open up a spot at small forward, but leaves us extremely crowded at point guard. Conclusion? Another trade is coming and it would be for a small forward from a team that needs a point guard. Who is out there? Miami. They don't have a starting quality point guard on that roster. Mario Chalmers isn't ready. So here's how it goes down: 

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=1994~454~510&teams=14~14~22&te=&cash=

We trade Blake and LaFrentz to Miami for Shawn Marion. We sign Steven Hill to a minimum contract. Now it's:

pg Hinrich, Bayless, Sergio
sg Roy, Rudy
sf Marion, Webster, Batum
pf Aldridge, Frye, Diogu
c Oden, Hill

Tell me you're not happy with that team next season? Tell me you don't think we're a legit contender?


----------



## PapaG

NateBishop3 said:


> We trade Blake and LaFrentz to Miami for Shawn Marion. We sign Steven Hill to a minimum contract. Now it's:
> 
> pg Hinrich, Bayless, Sergio
> sg Roy, Rudy
> sf Marion, Webster, Batum
> pf Aldridge, Frye, Diogu
> c Oden, Hill
> 
> *Tell me you're not happy with that team next season?* Tell me you don't think we're a legit contender?


Why take Marion???? The guy whined his way out of a winning situation in Phoenix because he wanted to be "the man". Now he plays for the cruddy Heat, where he has a fat contract and is still second fiddle to Wade.

At best in Portland, he'd be the 4th offensive option behind Roy, LMA, and Oden.

What a horrible trade.


----------



## Sambonius

PapaG said:


> Outlaw has to be added to this list making it a perfect 4/4, especially considering that Martell is in the final year of his deal.


Him too.


----------



## Minstrel

wastro said:


> The proposed trade would create an insane logjam in the backcourt: Kirk, Blake, Bayless, Roy, Sergio and Rudy fighting for PG/SG minutes? Yikes.


Sergio? He'd be fighting for try-outs with other teams. Blake would be essentially finished as a Blazer. His only role remaining is to give a "steady hand" at point guard while Bayless and Fernandez learn. Hinrich provides that steady hand and more talent.

I can see this trade happening if Pritchard feels Portland needs a proper point guard. Hinrich is about the same level of player as Outlaw, in terms of production, but plays much better defense at his position. So he's slightly better overall, in my opinion, than Outlaw.

However, I don't think Portland needs a "proper point guard."


----------



## #10

> pg Hinrich, Bayless, Sergio
> sg Roy, Rudy
> sf Marion, Webster, Batum
> pf Aldridge, Frye, Diogu
> c Oden, Hill
> 
> Tell me you're not happy with that team next season? Tell me you don't think we're a legit contender?


ok, that lineup is just sick, I'll give you that. But don't you think the idea of giving up Prz right now is extremely risky?


----------



## Sambonius

NateBishop3 said:


> Personally, I have always had my eye on Kirk Hinrich. He's a bigger guard at 6'3, he can defend, and he can shoot. So what if he had ONE bad year in five. In '06-'07 he averaged 16.6 pts, 6.3 assts, 3.4 boards, and he shot 41.5% from downtown. Yes, he had a significant drop last year, but that was only one season. Three of his first four years in the league he was solid.


I stopped reading after this. I don't know if your assertion is dishonest for ignoring his career stats or just plain lazy, but either way it is completely false. 

While it is pretty much the consensus that Kirk had a bad seasson last year, he actually shot WORSE from the field his first two seasons in the league, and almost identical in his third season. Now I'm not sure what your definition of solid is, but Kirk Hinrich is anything but with his constant shooting slumps.


----------



## NateBishop3

PapaG said:


> Why take Marion???? The guy whined his way out of a winning situation in Phoenix because he wanted to be "the man". Now he plays for the cruddy Heat, where he has a fat contract and is still second fiddle to Wade.
> 
> At best in Portland, he'd be the 4th offensive option behind Roy, LMA, and Oden.
> 
> What a horrible trade.


Marion was one of the biggest contributing factors on the great Phoenix teams over the last four years and you think it's a "horrible trade"? Are you serious? If we could get him for Blake and an expiring contract, that would be a steal. Marion is a shooter, a defender, a rebounder. He's one of the best small forwards in the league. He's played on some really good teams. Sure he's 30, but that means he has at least four or five more years. I think with that team we could easily win a championship in that window.


----------



## dreamcloud

PapaG said:


> Why take Marion???? The guy whined his way out of a winning situation in Phoenix because he wanted to be "the man". Now he plays for the cruddy Heat, where he has a fat contract and is still second fiddle to Wade.
> 
> At best in Portland, he'd be the 4th offensive option behind Roy, LMA, and Oden.
> 
> What a horrible trade.


Agreed. Some people just don't think trades through well.


----------



## Sambonius

PapaG said:


> Why take Marion???? The guy whined his way out of a winning situation in Phoenix because he wanted to be "the man". Now he plays for the cruddy Heat, where he has a fat contract and is still second fiddle to Wade.
> 
> At best in Portland, he'd be the 4th offensive option behind Roy, LMA, and Oden.
> 
> What a horrible trade.


Why not trade Raef for him? It's likely that Marion would end up bolting, but you get one season of production with him, with Raef... you don't. The Heat wouldn't do it anyways.


----------



## Minstrel

Sambonius said:


> For the money, Blake is a more valuable commodity than Hinrich.


That may be true, but "for the money" isn't particularly important. This deal would have to be money neutral (since Portland doesn't have big cap room yet), so it wouldn't jeopardize the cap room in summer. Once that cap room is used next off-season, the team will be over the cap anyway. Being even more over, due to Hinrich's deal, won't hurt the team at all. Having the better talent, even if lower value-per-dollar, will make the team stronger.

Twelve Steve Blakes at minimum contracts might make the most efficient per-dollar team in the league, but also the worst in terms of wins. Unless it limits making other, more important moves, which I don't think this does, you have to accept some lesser cost efficiency to add better talent.


----------



## NateBishop3

Sambonius said:


> I stopped reading after this. I don't know if your assertion is dishonest for ignoring his career stats or just plain lazy, but either way it is completely false.
> 
> While it is pretty much the consensus that Kirk had a bad seasson last year, he actually shot WORSE from the field his first two seasons in the league, and almost identical in his third season. Now I'm not sure what your definition of solid is, but Kirk Hinrich is anything but with his constant shooting slumps.


So in your estimation, 16 pts, 6 assists, 3.6 rebounds, and 1.2 steals per game over three of his first four years isn't solid? I didn't say All-Star, I said solid.


----------



## NateBishop3

dreamcloud said:


> Agreed. Some people just don't think trades through well.


Did you even look at the trade? Are you seriously mkaing that statement over a trade of Steve Blake and Raef LaFretnz for Shawn Marion? :lol:

Ok, so maybe Miami doesn't do it. The point still stands, they need a point guard, we need a small forward.


----------



## BlazerFan22

Da_O said:


> That would absolutely be a terrible. If KP actually did that, we take away the phrase pritchslap forever.


I never did like that phrase anyway. I also remember KP saying in Blazer chat that he thinks the phrase "pritchslap" is disrespectful to other GM's around the league.


----------



## Sambonius

Minstrel said:


> That may be true, but "for the money" isn't particularly important.


Sure it is, Kirk's deal would strap us for several more seasons while guys we'd have to give up like Joel, Travis don't cost us anything. Kirk would obviously mess with our future cap space. If Raef was involved, it would effect it even more. Furthermore, ask yourself is Kirk THAT much better than Blake? My answer might be different than yours, but it's no. Kirk is a marginal improvement over Blake, but not one that warrants the drastic increase in money paid.


----------



## Balian

KP regretted trading Steve Blake once. He is not going to to trade him again. At worse, Steve Blake will settled in as a high quality backup point guard and will probably end his career here transitioning into coaching/management.

We do not need another Steve Blake clone(Hinrich). Get off this rumor. It is just that. A lot of teams float rumors with Portland's name attached to it to get the pot stirring. You guys should know better by now. No way, now how is KP going to trade Outlaw + Joel for a scrawny combo guard.


----------



## Dan

Not to nit-pick, but KP didn't trade Blake the first time.


----------



## ProZach

BG7 said:


> Wow at the guy saying that offense is the best part of Outlaw's games. If that's the best he has going for him, well I don't know what to say. The stats don't lie. Just because you don't care about a stat doesn't mean it's not a great metric to measure a player by. Just because you imagine that Outlaw is a good offensive player, doesn't make him one.


After extensive searching I found the definition of your obscure TS%. It's below:

True Shooting Percentage; the formula is PTS / (2 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA)). 

:raised_ey

I realize you dug this obscure statistic up for the sole purpose of making Ben Gordon look as good as possible, but gimme a break, you're seriously basing your entire opinion of a players offensive ability on this? 



BG7 said:


> You don't have a TS% of 50 if you are a good offensive player. You have to be a pretty bad offensive player to get that.


Iverson's is .519... In fact through his first 8 seasons it was .505... During that time he averaged 27.15 points per game, including 3 NBA scoring titles... Would you care to re-think your statement? 

Over the past three years Tracy McGrady's TS% is below .500, his career is only .522. Compare that to Kwame Brown's career TS% of .521. I guess they're pretty equal, huh? 

The bottom line is you can't make a blanket statement that if their TS% is around .500 then they're not a good offensive player. Just like you can't say Joel Pryzbilla, Scot Pollard, and Jerome James are amazing offensive talents since they had a TS% of .590 or higher last year. It does not tell the story.

Ben Gordon shot .434 from the field last year and Outlaw was .433. So essentially all the difference in their TS% comes from their free throw shooting, and Travis shot .741, which is not horrendous. If that's how you base your opinion that Travis is right on the unacceptable mark but Ben Gordon has good scoring efficiency... Uh, okay.

Since you like to use the phrase, "It's not hard to understand", how about - It's not hard to understand, watch an actual basketball game instead of looking up obscure statistics.


----------



## #10

Balian said:


> KP regretted trading Steve Blake once. He is not going to to trade him again.


Patterson made that trade, not KP.


----------



## NateBishop3

Balian said:


> KP regretted trading Steve Blake once. He is not going to to trade him again. At worse, Steve Blake will settled in as a high quality backup point guard and will probably end his career here transitioning into coaching/management.
> 
> We do not need another Steve Blake clone(Hinrich). Get off this rumor. It is just that. A lot of teams float rumors with Portland's name attached to it to get the pot stirring. You guys should know better by now. No way, now how is KP going to trade Outlaw + Joel for a scrawny combo guard.


Won't trade Blake again eh? Do you remember how KP tossed Freddy Jones into the wind after he sacrificed a year on his contract to come here? KP will make moves in the best interest for the team. This isn't 4th grade soccer. He isn't worried about hurting feelings. If Pritchard feels he can upgrade the point guard position while trading Steve Blake in the process, the trade will happen. Period.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

I completely agree ProZach. Those stats he's been throwing at us on the Bulls forums give me a headache


----------



## Sambonius

NateBishop3 said:


> So in your estimation, 16 pts, 6 assists, 3.6 rebounds, and 1.2 steals per game over three of his first four years isn't solid? I didn't say All-Star, I said solid.


That is solid, but I don't think he would put numbers anything resembling that for the Blazers. He played predominantly with the ball in his hands, that won't happen in Portland. And again, I don't think he's that much of an improvement over Steve Blake to warrant the give away in assetts and higher payroll.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Sambonius said:


> That is solid, but I don't think he would put numbers anything resembling that for the Blazers. He played predominantly with the ball in his hands, that won't happen in Portland. And again, I don't think he's that much of an improvement over Steve Blake to warrant the give away in assetts and higher payroll.


Hinrich started off at the 2 most of those games with Duhon playing the point and Gordon coming off the bench.


----------



## Oldmangrouch

When our backcourt was Roy/Blake/Jack, and we still had Jones as a back-up for Webster, this deal would have looked very interesting. Right now, not so much.

No offense, but some fans have a fetish for defense and/or experience. Replacing Jack with Kirk would have made sense (despite the questionable contract). Bumping Rudy and Bayless for Kirk is much harder to rationalize. It would make us a different team, but would we actually be a better team? 

You could argue, quite correctly, that Kirk would be a solid placeholder while the youngsters develop. You have to balance that against the loss of cap flexibility (not a huge issue IMHO), and the fact that this deal would weaken what is already our worst position. Would the next step be dealing Rudy or Bayless for an upgrade at SF? That seems like an impatient, short-sighted approach.

Personally, I would like to see how our 5 new players fit into the mix, rather than chasing deals that aren't a clear upgrade. Sometimes, patience is a virtue.


----------



## NateBishop3

Sambonius said:


> That is solid, but I don't think he would put numbers anything resembling that for the Blazers. He played predominantly with the ball in his hands, that won't happen in Portland. And again, I don't think he's that much of an improvement over Steve Blake to warrant the give away in assetts and higher payroll.


I've always thought Hinrich was a much better defender than Blake though. They're both streaky shooters, but I think Hinrich had a better all-around game. They're both smart players, but I think Hinrich has the edge. 

Are you sure he had the ball in his hands most of the time? I haven't watched many Bulls games, but with Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, etc I wouldn't think he would be dominating the ball, quite the opposite.


----------



## Minstrel

Sambonius said:


> Furthermore, ask yourself is Kirk THAT much better than Blake? My answer might be different than yours, but it's no. Kirk is a marginal improvement over Blake, but not one that warrants the drastic increase in money paid.


Yes, our answers are different. I think Hinrich is a very large upgrade on Blake. Blake has a been an okay stopgap, but his value has been quite overstated by Blazers fans, in the manner of any low-talent player who becomes a fan favourite for playing hard and not making key mistakes.

I don't think Hinrich is a star but, outside of last year, he's been a good starter, in terms of production. In addition, his defense is very good. Defense at the point is very important, as an opposing point guard who isn't bothered by the defense on him is free to focus all his attentions on quarterbacking his team. Blake is nothing special in production or defense.

Even if it did affect cap space, that's not much loss. Cap space rarely lands a star and the free agent market next season has quickly dried up, with so many high-profile RFAs signing long-term extensions. If Pritchard believes a good point guard is necessary (as opposed to using three combo guards in Roy, Bayless and Fernandez), I'd rather see him take opportunities to upgrade as they come, rather than hold off in the likely vain hope that he can land a star/superstar with cap space.


----------



## NateBishop3

Minstrel said:


> Yes, our answers are different. I think Hinrich is a very large upgrade on Blake. Blake has a been an okay stopgap, but his value has been quite overstated by Blazers fans, in the manner of any low-talent player who becomes a fan favourite for playing hard and not making key mistakes.
> 
> I don't think Hinrich is a star but, outside of last year, he's been a good starter, in terms of production. In addition, his defense is very good. Defense at the point is very important, as an opposing point guard who isn't bothered by the defense on him is free to focus all his attentions on quarterbacking his team. Blake is nothing special in production or defense.
> 
> Even if it did affect cap space, that's not much loss. Cap space rarely lands a star and the free agent market next season has quickly dried up, with so many high-profile RFAs signing long-term extensions. If Pritchard believes a good point guard is necessary (as opposed to using three combo guards in Roy, Bayless and Fernandez), I'd rather see him take opportunities to upgrade as they come, rather than hold off in the likely vain hope that he can land a star/superstar with cap space.


Exactly. While I think a backcourt of Bayless and Roy could work, I don't know if you pass up a chance at Hinrich. 

Don't you think the next obvious move would be to trade a point guard for a small forward then Minstrel?


----------



## #10

Would Hinrich really be a good defender though, especially in the West? He seems to be from the last 'wave' of the ideal point guards, ie a poor man's Jason Kidd. The new 'wave' is the quicker PG, Tony Parker, Deron Williams and Chris Paul. Can Hinrich stay in front of them?


----------



## Sambonius

NateBishop3 said:


> I've always thought Hinrich was a much better defender than Blake though. They're both streaky shooters, but I think Hinrich had a better all-around game. They're both smart players, but I think Hinrich has the edge.


I agree 100%. I don't think the debate is Blake vs Kirk because I think we can all agree Kirk takes it. But when we factor in Joel and or Travis/Martell? Plus factor in the committment in money. I say no.


----------



## Minstrel

NateBishop3 said:


> Don't you think the next obvious move would be to trade a point guard for a small forward then Minstrel?


A small forward would definitely be the priority if this deal happened. It would be nice to package Blake, at least as a throw-in. I could see Pritchard trying to land a veteran small forward, along the lines of a Shawn Marion. I'm not sure Miami, specifically, is a match...expiring contracts wouldn't land him, since Marion, himself, is an expiring contract. If New Jersey wants to dump salary and would deal Vince Carter for expiring deals, I could see him as a possible target. Oden won't be a primary scorer for a few years, in my opinion, and Roy and Aldridge are more complementary scorers. Carter as a go-to scorer for a few years may not be a bad idea.

I'd prefer someone younger, like a Danny Granger, but good, young players are generally off-limits unless you are willing to trade good, young players. Dealing a Fernandez or Bayless for someone like Granger would be an interesting move.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Hinrich made all defensive 2nd team in 2006/2007. He always guarded the taller guards of the opposition due to Gordon and Duhon being so short.

If Hinrich returns to 2006/2007 form, you guys will like the trade.


----------



## #10

P to the Wee said:


> Hinrich made all defensive 2nd team in 2006/2007. He always guarded the taller guards of the opposition due to Gordon and Duhon being so short.
> 
> If Hinrich returns to 2006/2007 form, you guys will like the trade.


That's the problem, Roy can't really guard Parker, D-Will, or Paul, so it would have to be Hinrich, and he'd probably get torched. Maybe he's a good defensive player, but it wouldn't really help the Blazers.


----------



## NateBishop3

Minstrel said:


> A small forward would definitely be the priority if this deal happened. It would be nice to package Blake, at least as a throw-in. I could see Pritchard trying to land a veteran small forward, along the lines of a Shawn Marion. I'm not sure Miami, specifically, is a match...expiring contracts wouldn't land him, since Marion, himself, is an expiring contract. If New Jersey wants to dump salary and would deal Vince Carter for expiring deals, I could see him as a possible target. Oden won't be a primary scorer for a few years, in my opinion, and Roy and Aldridge are more complementary scorers. Carter as a go-to scorer for a few years may not be a bad idea.
> 
> I'd prefer someone younger, like a Danny Granger, but good, young players are generally off-limits unless you are willing to trade good, young players. Dealing a Fernandez or Bayless for someone like Granger would be an interesting move.


The only reason why I would think Miami might be interested in doing it is because they might lose Marion next summer regardless. If you're Miami, do you trade Marion for a starting point guard and an expiring contract? They get their point guard to go next to Wade and Beasley, but they also are able to shed the cap space next summer when LaFrentz comes off the books. I thought I had heard somewhere that they weren't wanting to offer him the huge deal he wants.

Marion wants one more big contract because he knows, at 30 years old, he isn't going to get another chance at max-money. Miami doens't want to give him that, or so I heard. 

The Blazers get their big name free agent that would have been available next summer, but without having to cut Frye, Webster, and Diogu in the process because they would have Marion's bird rights. So we get to keep Frye and Webster, but still add Marion.

I really like the idea of adding Marion and Hinrich to this team. It might take a little more to get Marion, but I've been saying all along that we need to consolidate some talent. I had hoped we could at least wait a few months into the season to see how Bayless, Oden, and Rudy do though. If KP feels like he needs to make a trade now, so be it. Nothing we can do about that. He might be more worried about sacrificing team chemistry if he were to make a trade mid-season. 

Hinrich and Marion would give us shooting, great defense, and a couple of heady veterans to take this team deep in the playoffs.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

#10 said:


> That's the problem, Roy can't really guard Parker, D-Will, or Paul, so it would have to be Hinrich, and he'd probably get torched. Maybe he's a good defensive player, but it wouldn't really help the Blazers.


Hinrich could probably guard D-Will, Paul, Parker since he's been known as the Wade stopper, right? The point is Hinrich wasted much of his energy on defense guarding bigger players which led to less energy on the offensive end.


----------



## TTTone

Ship Webster before Outlaw. But at least ship one of them.

Only keep them both if you plan on a Sergio-Reaf-Outlaw/Webster mid-season package to lure a team in sending us a vet.


----------



## slickyseenis

Bad on so many levels.

Subtraction by addition. Why would the team not want to play Roy, Bayless, and Fernandez BIG minutes? Why would it bring in another 30 mpg guard?

Hinrich isn't that good. He's not a pure point guard, which would indeed be a nice addition to the backcourt for stretches where Brandon Roy isn't on the floor. Hinrich is a combo guard, very similar to Roy. He's considered more of a "pure point guard" because he isn't actually good at doing things like scoring and rebounding, things that bigger, better combo guards are good at. But he's not significantly better at passing than Roy.

Outlaw is a nice role player, and an especially nice complement to Martel Webster. Not that he should be untouchable by any means, but trading him for Hinrich won't make the team better.

Even though Ben Gordon would result in the same backcourt glut, a worse one even, since he's not as good of a passer, I'd rather have him than Hinrich because he's a better player.

The only upside to a Hinrich acquisition is as future trade value: if he plays a lot, and plays well, maybe he can be dealt for a better player.


----------



## NateBishop3

slickyseenis said:


> Bad on so many levels.
> 
> Subtraction by addition. Why would the team not want to play Roy, Bayless, and Fernandez BIG minutes? Why would it bring in another 30 mpg guard?
> 
> Hinrich isn't that good. He's not a pure point guard, which would indeed be a nice addition to the backcourt for stretches where Brandon Roy isn't on the floor. Hinrich is a combo guard, very similar to Roy. He's considered more of a "pure point guard" because he isn't actually good at doing things like scoring and rebounding, things that bigger, better combo guards are good at. But he's not significantly better at passing than Roy.
> 
> Outlaw is a nice role player, and an especially nice complement to Martel Webster. Not that he should be untouchable by any means, but trading him for Hinrich won't make the team better.
> 
> Even though Ben Gordon would result in the same backcourt glut, a worse one even, since he's not as good of a passer, I'd rather have him than Hinrich because he's a better player.
> 
> The only upside to a Hinrich acquisition is as future trade value: if he plays a lot, and plays well, maybe he can be dealt for a better player.


combo guards don't usually average over 6 assists a game for their career.


----------



## dwood615

leave us weak at small forward and center and gives us 1 too many point men

makes no sense at all


----------



## World B. Free

meru said:


> We had a thread on Hinrich a while back.


Oh really? Well crap. Delete all these posts and lets all move to the old Hinrich thread.


----------



## BG7

Once again, just because you don't understand a stat, doesn't mean it's invalid. The sole reason TS% exists is to measure scoring efficiency. 

Take for example, Zach Randolph. He averaged 23.9 PPG and 10.2 RPG his last year with the Blazers. He was a franchise player, and the Blazers were really good, right? Well he did have a positive impact on the Blazers, and caused them to overachieve, getting 32 wins with two rookies, other guys on rookie contracts, and other scrubs. Then look at the 3 years surrounding that. 18.9 PPG, but only on 51.1 TS%. 27 wins. 18.0 PPG, but only on 48.3 TS%...21 win team. Then last year, 17.6 PPG on 51.3 TS%, 23 wins. 

You just cannot have an inefficient scorer taking a lot of the shots in your offense. 

Tracy McGrady should probably have his shots cut. The guy just isn't an efficient scorer. He's horrible. True chucker department, although this guy does make some big plays, but he is straight up a chucker. Tracy McGrady's inefficient scoring probably has played a large role in the Rockets underachieving, even with Yao Ming. The only reason the Rockets have been as good as they have been the past few years is because they've been a top defensive team the past few years. Never better than average offensively, and that has a lot to do with them giving so many of their shot opportunities to an inefficient scorer in McGrady.


Also, there is a cut off that you need to look at regarding TS%, which is the 2004-2005 season. That is when the NBA instituted the new foul rules on the perimeter, which made it easier for perimeter players to score. Since then, Iverson's had years of average, above average, and very good scoring efficiency. Having a high volume scorer who scores with above average efficiency isn't necessarily a bad thing to have either. Of course a guy like Kobe, who has elite level of scoring efficiency, and scorers at high volume is way more valuable of a scorer.


----------



## King Joseus

World B. Free said:


> Oh really? Well crap. Delete all these posts and lets all move to the old Hinrich thread.


For the record, a lot of the ridiculous bashings of Hinrich here have been repeated from that thread.

I understand your (general Blazers fan) thoughts. It's very similar to the Bulls when they were on the way up. Every player has upside, everybody's great, all that good stuff. Yes, Oden is a way better prospect than anyone we have had. Still, I feel that this whole "bake the cake" idea is something that potentially would be biting the Blazers in the ***. What happens if the cake that gets baked isn't as great as expected? The ingredients lose value from where they are now (still with "great potential"), and the team ends up worse than it could have been. You guys understandably have faith in KP - if he proactively makes a move that trades Outlaw (who gets a bit too much credit here), he probably knows what he's doing.


----------



## King Joseus

And don't get me wrong, I definitely think the Blazers are going to be a very good team if they stay as presently constructed. I just feel that they'd be a better one with Hinrich at point and a trade for a SF...


----------



## MrJayremmie

You gotta wait and see what we have. Can't trade right now, not even seeing what thye do in scrimmages before camp. Specially the PG position. What if Bayless is perfect for our team? What if Roy and Rudy play amazingly well together, and Hinrich is an odd man out? I think we should let the cake bake.

the MSP on the Game is talkin' about Outlaw for Conley.



> What happens if the cake that gets baked isn't as great as expected?


Well waht if it does work out? What if it works out better than expected? Its just a risk you have to weigh pro's vs con's. KPs been talkin' about letting the "cake bake" for a while now. I just think you need to see what you have before you trade. Worst case scenerio you can make a trade at the deadline after you see how the gel. Why not that?


----------



## gatorpops

MrJayremmie said:


> You gotta wait and see what we have. Can't trade right now, not even seeing what thye do in scrimmages before camp. Specially the PG position. What if Bayless is perfect for our team? What if Roy and Rudy play amazingly well together, and Hinrich is an odd man out? I think we should let the cake bake.
> 
> the MSP on the Game is talkin' about Outlaw for Conley.
> 
> 
> 
> Well waht if it does work out? What if it works out better than expected? Its just a risk you have to weigh pro's vs con's. KPs been talkin' about letting the "cake bake" for a while now. I just think you need to see what you have before you trade. Worst case scenerio you can make a trade at the deadline after you see how the gel. Why not that?



Looks to me like KP is gearing for a run at the Championship this year or next. Get all the pieces this year and run for it next year. 

Seems maybe that KP and Nate saw enough with Rudy to say he is going to be more productive than Outlaw. Rebounding, passing, moving, and shooting and finishing. 

If we can get a very serviceable PG in the mix we may be set, hedging his bet with Sergio's past play and letting Blake go at the end of this season.


----------



## jwhoops11

stupendous said:


> Ugh, seriously. This looks to be pulled out of thin air. I honestly have NO clue why the Blazers would pull the trigger on this trade. It makes no sense if you take into account what the balance amongst positions would be if that went through:
> 
> Hinrich/Blake/Sergio
> Roy/Rudy/Bayless
> Webster/Batum
> Aldridge/Frye/Diogu
> Oden/LaFrentz


I know this is from early in the thread, and perhaps this has been discussed already, but seems to me that Pritchard might look at this depth chart differently.

A trade for Hinrich propbably opens up playing time for Bayless and Diogu with 2/3 deep that looks like this:

Hinrich/Blake/Rodriquez
Roy/Bayless
Webster/Rudy
Aldridge/Diogu
Oden/Frye/Lafrentz

I know that Rudy at the 3 has been questioned, and in the end if it doesn't work out, he can move back to primarily the 2 and Lafrentz's expiring contract can be moved for a SF, maybe a Battier?

Honestly, and I might be seen as anti-Outlaw, if you could add Hinrich and an upper tier SF around the Trade deadline, then I actually like the deal, as far as finding playing time for deserving players.


----------



## MrJayremmie

> Looks to me like KP is gearing for a run at the Championship this year or next. Get all the pieces this year and run for it next year.


thats a mistake, imo. We should be focused more on the next 10 years than trying to make a push now.


----------



## nikolokolus

BG7 said:


> Once again, just because you don't understand a stat, doesn't mean it's invalid. The sole reason TS% exists is to measure scoring efficiency.
> 
> *Take for example, Zach Randolph. He averaged 23.9 PPG and 10.2 RPG his last year with the Blazers. He was a franchise player, and the Blazers were really good, right? Well he did have a positive impact on the Blazers, and caused them to overachieve, getting 32 wins with two rookies, other guys on rookie contracts, and other scrubs. Then look at the 3 years surrounding that.* 18.9 PPG, but only on 51.1 TS%. 27 wins. 18.0 PPG, but only on 48.3 TS%...21 win team. Then last year, 17.6 PPG on 51.3 TS%, 23 wins.
> 
> ...


With that you should lose your license to post on the Blazers forum. 

But on a more serious note, you clearly never watched Z-Bo play for the Blazers as that fat, black hole killed ball movement, never met a double team he didn't like, and generally "selfished" his teams into the dirt as he made sure he got his ... I've got a more telling stat for you; with Zach traded and no Greg Oden the team posted 9 more wins riding the backs of two sophomores and a collection of role players who overachieved because they played team oriented, pass-first, basketball as well as showing a commitment to playing defense, something Z-Bo will never do.

As for TS% being a worthwhile metric for measuring the quality of a player it's certainly one aspect to consider, but the fact that you keep using it like a bludgeon to prove somehow that Ben Gordon, Joel Przybilla, and Zach Randolph are superior offensive players due to efficiency is just completely disingenuous. The simple fact of the matter is that Ben Gordon makes his living off of perimeter shots, is streaky as hell, can't defend, and is s shooting guard in a point guard's body. I admit that he's a pretty damn good 3 point shooter and foul shooter but more than anything that's what the TS% is demonstrating, not that he's a hyper efficient, high percentage scorer.


----------



## Ballscientist

PapaG said:


> Why take Marion???? The guy whined his way out of a winning situation in Phoenix because he wanted to be "the man". Now he plays for the cruddy Heat, where he has a fat contract and is still second fiddle to Wade.
> 
> At best in Portland, he'd be the 4th offensive option behind Roy, LMA, and Oden.
> 
> What a horrible trade.



to get Marion, you will need to add Outlaw.


----------



## King Joseus

MrJayremmie said:


> thats a mistake, imo. We should be focused more on the next 10 years than trying to make a push now.


Again, I feel where you're coming from. But what happens if you become the Mavs and always manage to fall a step short of the championship - never good enough to win it all, but always very good?

If there's a deal that will put you over the top (Hinrich by himself is not that move), you do it (IMO).


----------



## Ed O

MrJayremmie said:


> thats a mistake, imo. We should be focused more on the next 10 years than trying to make a push now.


I find it impossible to believe that any GM or NBA team in the last 20 years has had a 10 year plan. They ALL know that there are too many variables and opportunities and challenges to worry about years down the road too much.

Am I for mortgaging our future? Absolutely not. Would I like to see us up our overall talent level without losing our core and without compromising our future? Absolutely.

Outlaw is a pretty good player, but there's probably no where for him to play here long term. And, in spite of what Blazers fans are claiming, his present production isn't so great we can't afford to move him.

Getting a big upgrade at the PG spot like Hinrich, and ESPECIALLY if we could follow that up for a move for Marion or Kirilenko to play the 3 spot, helps us this year without severely impacting our future. Other than, perhaps, the cap space next summer that may not be worth anything, anyway.

Ed O.


----------



## Fork

MrJayremmie said:


> thats a mistake, imo. We should be focused more on the next 10 years than trying to make a push now.


We can do both.

It's not like the talk is trading young core guys for 30+ year old guys. So far, we're talking about trading a young bench player for either Hinrich (27) Conley (20) or Lowry (22) all of whom would be an upgrade at the starting PG spot. We'll still have Oden, Roy and Aldridge for 10 years.


----------



## Masbee

Minstrel said:


> Gordon is definitely not worth giving up Outlaw and Przybilla for, especially if Portland has to take back a big contract. Gordon is a one-dimensional scorer, and not an elite scorer. In fact, he basically does what Outlaw does, score off the bench, except he's smaller and rebounds less.
> 
> And for that Gordon wants a max contract.


What?!

Gordon is an ELITE long distance shooter.

That would be a very valuable asset to have on the floor with the core guys.

Outlaw had a high percentage from 3 for one season only, but didn't shoot enough attempts to matter.

Gordon also has a higher bb iq (as does most every other player over Outlaw).

Gordon rebounds less because he is a guard. Period.

Outlaw is below average rebounder for a forward.

Gordon would be excellent on our team. Gordon is much better player than Outlaw.

The real questions are based on acceptence of roles, fit for team, contracts, etc. There is no question in my mind who is the better player.


----------



## MrJayremmie

> Again, I feel where you're coming from. But what happens if you become the Mavs and always manage to fall a step short of the championship - never good enough to win it all, but always very good?
> 
> If there's a deal that will put you over the top (Hinrich by himself is not that move), you do it (IMO).


That will all depend on Oden. And whats to say that we can't make a trade if KP feels we need a roster change? What i'm saying is we don't have to make a move now until we see how the players play together.

One of the reasons that I don't think we should put too much stock into winning now is because i'm not sure Oden is ready to lead us deep into the playoffs right now.

And of course if there is a good deal on the table, you do it. Nobody is saying not to. But unless its a really nice deal, I think patience is something we need right now.



> It's not like the talk is trading young core guys for 30+ year old guys. So far, we're talking about trading a young bench player for either Hinrich (27) Conley (20) or Lowry (22) all of whom would be an upgrade at the starting PG spot. We'll still have Oden, Roy and Aldridge for 10 years.


If the deal is good, you have to make it. But trading Outlaw and Przybilla for Hinrich certainly isn't the good deal that you can't wait to pull the trigger on. Specially since it will only further the logjam at the guard position.

If by trading Outlaw we help our team get better than we would be with him, i'm all for it. But Outlaw and Pryzbilla would not make us better this year, or in the future. Specially with the Rudy and Bayless wildcard we have right now, imo. I don't think Outlaw is as important to this team as some people are making him out to be though.


----------



## Minstrel

Masbee said:


> What?!
> 
> Gordon is an ELITE long distance shooter.


That's fine. I said he wasn't an elite _scorer_. And I don't think he is. He's got good efficiency and takes a good amount of shots, but he doesn't shoot enough and at such high efficiency as to be considered an elite scorer. I don't think very many people consider him on the level of a Wade, Bryant, James, Nowitzki, etc, as a scorer.



> Gordon rebounds less because he is a guard. Period.
> 
> Outlaw is below average rebounder for a forward.


That largely depends on whether Outlaw is a power forward or small forward. As a small forward, he's fairly average. As a power forward, he's below average.



> Gordon would be excellent on our team. Gordon is much better player than Outlaw.


The stats certainly don't bear that out. Even with Gordon's superior TS%, his PER was pretty similar to Outlaw's. Despite Outlaw coming into the league younger and rawer than Gordon, their career PERs are separated by only 1 point. And while I don't think Outlaw is a particularly good defender, I think he's a better defender than Gordon. Only slightly, but that's enough to wipe out the very slight edge Gordon has in terms of production.

As to whether he'd be excellent on this team, I think he'd fit in okay. I think he'd be a lateral move from Outlaw, and Outlaw is actually a year younger, so has more chance to improve.


----------



## SPIN DOCTOR

Bulls fan here.

I have never been a Kirk ....sniffer, but I have got to ask based on the strong reaction of some Blazer fans; how many of you have seen Kirk play much the last few years? No better than Steve Blake...really, lets take a quick poll of GM's. Kirk is a pretty damn skilled combo guard on both sides of the ball, and easily could be considered a top 15 point guard if thats where he plays. Kirk was a Team USA member for 2 years, so he must be considered to be at least OK (and on a very reasonable contract to boot). I wonder what it would cost to get a top 10-15 point in the trade market today, how many do you think could be available, it's likely Kirk is the only one.

From my perspective, this trade would net us a Journeyman Back-Up Center, and a Back-Up Forward. I cannot see Bo (who game I like) beating out Deng or Noch, maybe you see this differently. Giving up by far the most valuable player in the deal for a slightly stronger post rotation, seems like a deal that the Bulls could do better than in the future. I am not at all against Kirk getting moved, but the fit of the return pieces of this deal leave me underwhelmed, and thats not a slight to your guys. If Joel had an offensive game my opinion would be very different, then we would be addressing a need.

I can't see this being good from the Bulls perspective.

I think the Blazers are going to be a blast to watch this year, good luck to everyone!


----------



## MrJayremmie

> I cannot see *Bo (who game I like)* beating out Deng or Noch, maybe you see this differently.


Ya like his game, yet you don't know his name. 

But no. He isn't on Deng's level.

I don't like it much from the Bulls perspective either. They are gettin' a SF, which is a position they have plenty of. And giving up Hinrich, who I think they will need for at least the first half of the year, as Rose is coming in pretty raw.


----------



## Tortimer

SPIN DOCTOR said:


> Bulls fan here.
> 
> I have never been a Kirk ....sniffer, but I have got to ask based on the strong reaction of some Blazer fans; how many of you have seen Kirk play much the last few years? No better than Steve Blake...really, lets take a quick poll of GM's. Kirk is a pretty damn skilled combo guard on both sides of the ball, and easily could be considered a top 15 point guard if thats where he plays. Kirk was a Team USA member for 2 years, so he must be considered to be at least OK (and on a very reasonable contract to boot). I wonder what it would cost to get a top 10-15 point in the trade market today, how many do you think could be available, it's likely Kirk is the only one.
> 
> From my perspective, this trade would net us a Journeyman Back-Up Center, and a Back-Up Forward. I cannot see Bo (who game I like) beating out Deng or Noch, maybe you see this differently. Giving up by far the most valuable player in the deal for a slightly stronger post rotation, seems like a deal that the Bulls could do better than in the future. I am not at all against Kirk getting moved, but the fit of the return pieces of this deal leave me underwhelmed, and thats not a slight to your guys. If Joel had an offensive game my opinion would be very different, then we would be addressing a need.
> 
> I can't see this being good from the Bulls perspective.
> 
> I think the Blazers are going to be a blast to watch this year, good luck to everyone!


I agree with most of what you posted. I really like Hinrich and would rather trade for him instead of the other rumor of Conley/Lowry trade for Outlaw. I do think your underestimating Outlaw about the same way some of the Blazer fans are with Hinrich. Outlaw just came into his own last year. I think the trade is probably fair for both teams but really doesn't address a need for either. I think both Outlaw and especially Joel are very important for the Blazers. It seems from the rumors KP is making offers for another PG (Hinrich/Conley) but IMO isn't a need for us especially giving up our backup center before Oden has even play one NBA game. I just can't see this trade or the other rumor trade going down. It does sound like KP is shopping Outlaw but if there is a trade before camp starts I think it will end up being with different players/teams(Bulls/Memphis).


----------



## SPIN DOCTOR

MrJayremmie said:


> Ya like his game, yet you don't know his name.
> 
> But no. He isn't on Deng's level.
> 
> I don't like it much from the Bulls perspective either. They are gettin' a SF, which is a position they have plenty of. And giving up Hinrich, who I think they will need for at least the first half of the year, as Rose is coming in pretty raw.


Thats what happens when an old fart tries to multi-task!

Kirk could have serious value in a 3 guard rotation in Chicago, nobody knows what is going to happen with Ben Gordon. If they make a deal like this then they need somebody that can back-up the point. 

I actually think Ben would be a perfect fit next to Roy, but I completely understand that his contract demands are a deal killer. Where is Isiah when you need him?


----------



## Foulzilla

I don't like this trade in isolation, but presuming some follow up trade I might. I do think Hinrich is a significant upgrade over Blake. However, I'd like to see Bayless get a shot at the PG spot with Roy as I think they'll complement each other well, so I'm not sure I want this trade to happen yet. I'd also hate to lose the only real backup C (though Aldridge/Frye could spend some time there against most teams, so it wouldn't be a huge deal).

I'm not a Gordon fan. He's definitely a better player than Outlaw, but he also wants a huge contract and presumably a starting spot. I just don't think he's the right choice for this team unless he's willing to take significantly less and be happy with a sixth man role. 

Finally, TS% is not a very obscure stat. I'd argue it's probably the second most common non-official stat after PER. It's simply a method to try and account for the benefits of 3-point shooting and free throws all in one stat. Just like any other stat, it's a useful tool, but can sometimes be misleading. Regarding Joel, I don't think it's misleading at all. The conclusions people draw might be wrong, but Joel is pretty good about not taking shots he can't make (i.e. anything other than a dunk), and as such is a pretty efficient scorer. However, he's got no real offensive moves, so if he tried to take more shots his % would plummet, and thus he's not much of a scoring threat.


----------



## andalusian

With all due respect to BG - I do not see him as a perfect fit next to Roy - he is not a good defender nor a great ball-handler. Yes, he can shoot in volume - but this team will not have an issue of scoring with Roy, Aldridge, Oden, Bayless and Rudy - and I expect Rudy to be a prolific shooter and scorer anyway. 

Bayless seems like a better fit next to Roy thanks to defense and he will come much cheaper.

Captain Kirk is a bit more interesting - but he only makes sense if Rudy spends most of his time at the SF position with Webster - while Roy/Bayless split time at SG. Seems like the current set that includes Outlaw/Webster at SF is more balanced - and again - a much lower salary and flexibility - not to mention a good backup center to help ease Oden into the league.

If there is any truth to the rumor that KP contacted the Bulls for this - this smells like a decoy to me - maybe he can pressure Memphis for Connley with this move - that's the only thing that could make sense - otherwise - I can think of this as bogus from Portland's view..


----------



## BG7

nikolokolus said:


> On that note you should lose your license to post on the Blazers forum.
> 
> But on a more serious note, you clearly never watched Z-Bo play for the Blazers as that fat, black hole killed ball movement, never met a double team he didn't like, and generally "selfished" his teams into the dirt as he made sure he got his ... I've got a more telling stat for you; with Zach traded and no Greg Oden the team posted 9 more wins riding the backs of two sophomores and a collection of role players who overachieved because they played team oriented, pass-first, basketball as well as showing a commitment to playing defense, something Z-Bo will never do.
> 
> As for TS% being a worthwhile metric for measuring the quality of a player it's certainly one aspect to consider, but the fact that you keep using it like a bludgeon to prove somehow that Ben Gordon, Joel Przybilla, and Zach Randolph are superior offensive players due to efficiency is just completely disingenuous. The simple fact of the matter is that Ben Gordon makes his living off of perimeter shots, is streaky as hell, can't defend, and is s shooting guard in a point guard's body. I admit that he's a pretty damn good 3 point shooter and foul shooter but more than anything that's what the TS% is demonstrating, not that he's a hyper efficient, high percentage scorer.


How did you construe that I think Zach Randolph is a superior offensive player? He had one slightly above average year where he produce in volume, which allowed his team to overachieve a bit. I was using Zach Randolph as an example of how a high volume scorer, who doesn't score efficiently completely ****s up a team, and makes them horrible.


----------



## BlazerFan22

Kirk Hinrich would be the perfect PG for this Blazers team. That idiot Scott Skiles played Hinrich out of position at SG and even SF last year.


----------



## andalusian

BG7 said:


> How did you construe that I think Zach Randolph is a superior offensive player? He had one slightly above average year where he produce in volume, which allowed his team to overachieve a bit. I was using Zach Randolph as an example of how a high volume scorer, who doesn't score efficiently completely ****s up a team, and makes them horrible.


The biggest issue with Zach was defense and taking time from people that played both sides of the floor (Aldridge). Ben Gordon will present the same problem and take time from Bayless. He makes no sense for the Blazers since he is not a good or even average defensive player.


----------



## SPIN DOCTOR

andalusian said:


> With all due respect to BG - I do not see him as a perfect fit next to Roy - he is not a good defender nor a great ball-handler. Yes, he can shoot in volume - but this team will not have an issue of scoring with Roy, Aldridge, Oden, Bayless and Rudy - and I expect Rudy to be a prolific shooter and scorer anyway.
> 
> Bayless seems like a better fit next to Roy thanks to defense and he will come much cheaper.


What I see as Ben's value to the Blazers is a cold-blooded finisher at crunch-time during the playoffs. I am guessing that the Blazers are strong enough to make it out of the 1st round. Ben Gordon is a luxury item, a specialist that is hard to quantify value, when the big game is on the line he will score the ball without hesitation. 

I have no idea what your young'ins will do under extreme pressure on a big stage. Yes, Ben is not great on D, he is not great with the ball (I thought in would be in Brandans hands), but he can finish games much better than anybody currently available.

The deal I would push for if KP trades Outlaw, is to see if he can tempt Paxton with a Joel for Noch swap. Andres would be an awesome fit for you guys, but I do not know if he is available, Pax has a mancrush on Noch.


----------



## #10

King Joseus said:


> For the record, a lot of the ridiculous bashings of Hinrich here have been repeated from that thread.
> 
> I understand your (general Blazers fan) thoughts. It's very similar to the Bulls when they were on the way up. Every player has upside, everybody's great, all that good stuff. Yes, Oden is a way better prospect than anyone we have had. Still, I feel that this whole "bake the cake" idea is something that potentially would be biting the Blazers in the ***. What happens if the cake that gets baked isn't as great as expected? The ingredients lose value from where they are now (still with "great potential"), and the team ends up worse than it could have been. You guys understandably have faith in KP - if he proactively makes a move that trades Outlaw (who gets a bit too much credit here), he probably knows what he's doing.


I'm not sure that there are many Blazer fans arguing that Outlaw should be kept at all cost. The problem with the Hinrich deal is 
A) he's not really very good, or at least not good enough to be worth his contract
B) the trade leaves the Blazer roster extremely unbalanced.

I do see what your saying though and I agree, I'm all for trading away Outlaw. Just not necessarily this deal.


----------



## MrJayremmie

Hey SPINDOCTER, i've really enjoyed reading your posts. You seem very knowledgeable, and like a cool guy to have a conversation with. You make good points. You should post on this board more often. 

Anyway, about your post. The thing is, is that the Blazers already have our clutch, go-to guy in Roy. We are bringing in 2 cold blooded players in Rudy and Jerryd. And we have travis Outlaw, who besides some holes in his game, is a very clutch player. We definitely haven't proved we can do it in the playoffs when it really counts, but B-Roy is our man. I think Gordon loses a little value because he is only a SG, which is a very deep position with Roy and Fernandez. And then we have a player like Bayless that is similar to Gordon in some respects. So I don't think, personally, that Gordon works for our team, as it just doesn't seem as the right fit. Not just with Roy (which i'm sure he wouldn't be a bad fit with Roy, but we need Roys backcourt mate to bring the ball up under pressure, be able to oguard those quick PGs, be able to run the break, etc.) but with the team needs.

that is what i think.


----------



## nikolokolus

BG7 said:


> How did you construe that I think Zach Randolph is a superior offensive player? He had one slightly above average year where he produce in volume, which allowed his team to overachieve a bit. I was using Zach Randolph as an example of how a high volume scorer, who doesn't score efficiently completely ****s up a team, and makes them horrible.


You're argument was that because Z-Bo posted one season of 23 and 10 he somehow drove the Blazers to a 32 win mark (overachieving in your words), when the simple fact is that his TS% in that year and any other year had about as much to do with the Blazers' and Knicks' records as Lunar exlipses effect the price of gasoline -- there's zero correlation. Z-Bo makes his teams suck because he's a black hole and doesn't play defense. In retrospect I probably should have just called out the Z-bo stuff for what it is, a complete red herring that has not bearing whatsoever on the discussion at hand.

As for the real topic at hand I get the impression that you are trying to paint Ben Gordon as some kind of deadly efficient scorer, when in point of fact he is kind of chucker, with a streaky shot who makes his living from beyond the arc. Beyond that he's got so-so ball handling skills, poor defensive skills and is demanding money that he is not worth. I don't care what his TS% is, I know I don't want him in a Blazers Uniform.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

MrJayremmie said:


> Hey SPINDOCTER, i've really enjoyed reading your posts. You seem very knowledgeable, and like a cool guy to have a conversation with. You make good points. You should post on this board more often.
> 
> Anyway, about your post. The thing is, is that the Blazers already have our clutch, go-to guy in Roy. We are bringing in 2 cold blooded players in Rudy and Jerryd. And we have travis Outlaw, who besides some holes in his game, is a very clutch player. We definitely haven't proved we can do it in the playoffs when it really counts, but B-Roy is our man. I think Gordon loses a little value because he is only a SG, which is a very deep position with Roy and Fernandez. And then we have a player like Bayless that is similar to Gordon in some respects. So I don't think, personally, that Gordon works for our team, as it just doesn't seem as the right fit. Not just with Roy (which i'm sure he wouldn't be a bad fit with Roy, but we need Roys backcourt mate to bring the ball up under pressure, be able to oguard those quick PGs, be able to run the break, etc.) but with the team needs.
> 
> that is what i think.


Yeah definitely. The Bulls boards is in need of some active and knowledgeable posters.


----------



## PapaG

#10 said:


> *I'm not sure that there are many Blazer fans arguing that Outlaw should be kept at all cost.* The problem with the Hinrich deal is
> A) he's not really very good, or at least not good enough to be worth his contract
> B) the trade leaves the Blazer roster extremely unbalanced.
> 
> I do see what your saying though and I agree, I'm all for trading away Outlaw. Just not necessarily this deal.


Count me in on this. I'd trade Outlaw for Hinrich, but not if it also takes Pyrz to do it. Replace Pyrz with Frye/Sergio and I'd do it without thinking twice.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

I might have brought this up already but I'm too lazy to see if I did 

Nocioni/Hinrich for Outlaw/LaFrentz

You guys probably won't have much cap space next off-season, but you guys would roll with:

PG-Hinrich/Bayless/Blake
SG-Roy/Fernandez/Bayless
SF-Nocioni/Fernandez/Webster
PF-Aldridge/Diogu/Nocioni
C-Oden/Przybilla

Probably make one more move to get rid of all the depth, but I would be comfortable rolling with this team in 2 or 3 years.


----------



## PapaG

P to the Wee said:


> I might have brought this up already but I'm too lazy to see if I did
> 
> *Nocioni/Hinrich for Outlaw/LaFrentz*


The Bulls would be getting ripped off on that deal IMO. The 3 for 1 I posted above is probably a better deal for the Bulls. Raef is nothing more than a $$$ on a piece of paper at this stage of his career, so giving up Nocioni and Hinrich for Outlaw is lopsided in the Blazers' favor. Even more so considering the dwindling 2009 FA class.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

PapaG said:


> The Bulls would be getting ripped off on that deal IMO. The 3 for 1 I posted above is probably a better deal for the Bulls. Raef is nothing more than a $$$ on a piece of paper at this stage of his career, so giving up Nocioni and Hinrich for Outlaw is lopsided in the Blazers' favor. Even more so considering the dwindling 2009 FA class.


It seems as if the Bulls are gunning for 2010, so Raef would be quite useful.


----------



## Crimson the Cat

This would be fantastic news if true. Adding Hinrich may make Portland one of the strongest defensive teams in the league.


----------



## Crimson the Cat

If the rumors we've heard over the past few months were true, Pritchard isn't necessarily looking to add a guard with a specific skill set. We've heard whispers of Kirk Hinrich, Mike Conley, Jose Calderon, Leandro Barbosa, and T.J. Ford. These are all different types of guards - facilitators and scorers. The three things they all have in common is they're solid all-around players, young, and experienced.

Steve Blake is another player I'd like to keep in a Blazer uni for life, just not as a starter. He'd played well for Portland last year. I don't see him improving on his game much. Unfortunately Portland still got outplayed regularly at the point guard position. An upgrade is the next logical step.

We already have Jerryd Bayless, who in his own right, is another solid all-around player. He just doesn't have the experience yet. He may very well fit nicely next to Brandon Roy in the starting line-up, but for a team with a brutal beginning schedule and Playoff hopes, he isn't ready. Also, this team already has Oden learning the ropes in the starting unit. Bayless needs to learn the ropes with the second unit.

Teaming up Fernandez and Roy in the backcourt is a mistake. The other team would be able to set up their offense at ease AND it would wear down Rudy and Brandon (chasing after the guards and bring the ball up).

This team needs as good of a guard as it can get. One that can defend smaller guards, play off the ball, shoot well from outside, and is a strong leader. Kirk Hinrich is that guy. Offering Joel and Travis may be steep, but let's be real, they're bench players. Of course they're excellent role players, but they're role players nonetheless. Paying Joel that amount of money to come off the bench doesn't make much sense. Playing Travis at a position that's he proven he can't do very well isn't the best for the team. Now I will contend that they each could start on different teams given the right circumstances. And because of that I'd certainly expect to get another asset, such as a draft pick.

The other thing this move does that I love is it allows Rudy to eventually start at the 3 and increase his role. Yes, he'd be overmatched with most NBA small forwards on the defensive end, but that's fine. At all of our other positions we'd be very strong. Teams would only be able to take advantage of us at that one position. With a smart defensive scheme, McMillan could cover up any defensive deficiencies easier. This allows Rudy more court time which is awesome!


----------



## SheedSoNasty

Crimson the Cat said:


> This team needs as good of a guard as it can get. One that can defend smaller guards, play off the ball, shoot well from outside, and is a strong leader.


Isn't that the kind of player that Bayless is being touted as? Adding another guard to this roster doesn't make much sense to me.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Well Bayless is coming in as a freshman out of college, and how many freshman guards not picked in the top 2 come in and play 30 minutes?


----------



## SheedSoNasty

P to the Wee said:


> Well Bayless is coming in as a freshman out of college, and how many freshman guards not picked in the top 2 come in and play 30 minutes?


Even then, we'll have enough time to let him adjust before we're truly contending for a title.

Plus, there's Blake, Roy, Fernandez, and Rodriguez that can play the guard position. I'm very against making any moves that doesn't involve a top tier player or a very nice young up and comer; I'm thinking along the lines of Granger or Prince, for instance.


----------



## STOMP

Wages of Wins weighs in on Gordon's value.

_"When we look at Wins Produced, though, it is clear Gordon’s productivity is inconsistent with the money he is demanding. In fact, given Gordon’s lack of production, it’s not clear that the Bulls should even bother signing Gordon to the offer the team has already made."_

STOMP


----------

