# Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!!!)



## rosenthall

This time of year always makes for good conversation, and especially this season, where it looks like a lot of our FA targets our rumoured to be on the market, and our #1 stunna Isiah Thomas looks to be getting an itchy trigger finger. So, I figure this could be a good place to centralize any discussion about the trade market that isn't directly bulls related, post links, etc.


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## GB

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

An article:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=cnnsi-letsmakeadeal&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns



> But let's leave the Knicks out of this for a change and pick on somebody else. What other teams need to make a deal? One could argue that there are, oh, 25 of them, so far ahead of the pack are the Detroit Pistons, San Antonio Spurs, Dallas Mavericks, and, to a lesser extent, the Phoenix Suns and Miami Heat. But this is a five-pack format, so here are five. Keep in mind that the Free Darko Movement has already succeeded in getting Mr. Milicic out of Detroit (he's in Orlando) and that several other deals might come down after I write this on Thursday morning.


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## rosenthall

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



GB said:


> An article:
> 
> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=cnnsi-letsmakeadeal&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns


Yeah, with all the smoke that's surrounding some teams, I'd be surprised if some deals weren't consummated between them. If I had to bet, I'd say Steve Francis and one of Denver's point guards are the most likely to leave. And Isiah looks like he's aching to make a trade, if for little other reason than to shake things up and divert attention away from the team.


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## anorexorcist

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

^^From what I've been reading, Franchise to NY is a lock, my guess is they'll probably shoot Orlando Jamal, Frye, and/or Ariza (the latter two since Brown apparently hates dealing with rookies). Orlando is gonna become a better version of Charlotte with all the deals they're pulling off, while the Knicks will continue to serve as the dump for once-were or never-were NBA talents.

How about Rashard Lewis for K-Mart? Seattle would get some more D and size (since both names have been on the trading block) and Denver would rid itself of that atrocious contract.

As for us, I really want to see us do something but I get the feeling if we don't, we can kiss the playoffs goodbye.


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## rosenthall

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

And speaking of Steve Francis........





> Chris Sheridan/ESPN Insider - Chris Sheridan of ESPN is reporting that it is no longer a matter of whether Steve Francis is dealt, but whe. New York and Denver are the leading candidates as of now, but Minnesota is trying to engineer a three-team deal that would put Francis alongside Kevin Garnett and Ricky Davis.
> 
> A long-shot possibility is Francis returning to Houston. Wednesday night's Orlando-Detroit trade removed the possibility of Kelvin Cato going to New York in a Francis trade, but the Knicks can still do a Hardaway-Francis deal by removing Jamal Crawford from the equation and substituting Trevor Ariza and rookies David Lee and/or Nate Robinson.


And there's also this:




> NEW YORK -- A Steve Francis-Stephon Marbury backcourt? Don't hold your breath.
> 
> Francis and all his behavioral baggage, plus the $48.7 million he's due the three seasons after this one, may not be in Orlando by the NBA trade deadline a week from today.
> 
> 
> Yet, although the Knicks and Magic have talked, league sources indicated Wednesday it's more likely he'll end up elsewhere. That's because there's a theory throughout the league that Knicks president Isiah Thomas is generating talk about such big-ticket players to divert attention from his free-falling team.


[URL]http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap/ 

If there's any truth to these rumours, (a BIG if), it looks like Isiah has gone into full fledged desperation mode. Generating rumours just to distract fans from your actual team seems like a pretty last straw thing to do. Also, everyone of his rookies has been mentioned in trade rumours as well, which puts question marks around the youth movement he was supposedly trying to put in place. Of course, it may be that other teams are just asking for them, and he didn't initiate any of it, but if there's enough smoke, I tend to think there's probably at least a hint that something like that may have been discussed.

Any takers on where Steve Francis will end up? And if he ends up on the Knicks, would that help or hurt? I'm a bit torn on the issue. On one hand, he's extremely talented, and is someone that needs to be accounted for, but on the other, he's just more of the same of what that team has. I think it's a move that would either really work or really not work. For the most part, I'm rather ambivalent, as long as he doesn't go to Denver, which I imagine would necessitate Nene being moved, which would probably decrease our chances of signing him this summer.


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## rosenthall

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



anorexorcist said:


> ^^From what I've been reading, Franchise to NY is a lock, my guess is they'll probably shoot Orlando Jamal, Frye, and/or Ariza (the latter two since Brown apparently hates dealing with rookies). Orlando is gonna become a better version of Charlotte with all the deals they're pulling off, while the Knicks will continue to serve as the dump for once-were or never-were NBA talents.
> 
> How about Rashard Lewis for K-Mart? Seattle would get some more D and size (since both names have been on the trading block) and Denver would rid itself of that atrocious contract.
> 
> As for us, I really want to see us do something but I get the feeling if we don't, we can kiss the playoffs goodbye.


Anorexcorcist, I thought Francis to NY looked like a done deal as well until I read that article. I definitely think he'll be moved though. I'd say Denver is most likely, since they seem to have the most tradeable pieces and seem to want him, but who knows. I also find it interesting that Isiah seems willing to move the young players he's recently acquired. If he really is willing to move Frye, I'd consider trading him our pick for him. 

Hah, and if he does move Frye for Francis......yeesh. I've never heard that mentioned, but trading young, talented big men, for undersized, malcontent shooting guards on a team full of them doesn't strike me as a good idea.

And I doubt the Sonics would move Lewis for Kmart. For one, they seem to be a fiscally conscious team, and moving a blue-chip player for Kenyon, who seems to be a health risk and has 5 more years on his contract doesn't seem like a move they'd make. And I think they're pretty optimistic about Robert Swift too. If anyone gets traded, I'd imagine it's Ray Allen.


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## GB

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



rosenthall said:


> Any takers on where Steve Francis will end up? And if he ends up on the Knicks, would that help or hurt? I'm a bit torn on the issue. On one hand, he's extremely talented, and is someone that needs to be accounted for, but on the other, he's just more of the same of what that team has. I think it's a move that would either really work or really not work.


Thats what the NY media thinks.



> A Marbury-Francis pairing would be dynamic, and highly problematic. They are shoot-first point guards who have driven coaches and teammates to distraction. Neither has the size to defend shooting guards — Marbury is 6 feet 2 inches, Francis 6-3.
> 
> Marbury and Francis were coincidentally named by their peers as two of the most overrated players in the league, according to a poll in this week's Sports Illustrated. Marbury topped the list, garnering 12 percent of the responses from 248 N.B.A. players. Francis received 9 percent.


Who else was on that list?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/16/sports/basketball/16knicks.html


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## ScottMay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



GB said:


> Who else was on that list?


Marbury 12%

Yao 10%

Francis 9%

Carmelo 5%


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## butr

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

Wanted to see what you guys would think of this?

You guys are still going for the playoffs.

Not sure how much you like Mike James but his name is out there. We know AD is CHI-bound next year.

Does this sound reasonable?

Mike James + a released AD

For

Piatkowski

And a conditional 2006 1st rounder 

Example of conditions could be as follows.
(Conditions: IF CHI makes the playoffs and NYK pick is 4th or later, TOR receives the NYK pick. If CHI fails to make the playoffs OR the NYK pick is 1 thru 3, TOR gets the later of the two picks)


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## anorexorcist

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

AD is done next year, and while James would be nice where would he fit on the team? If his ppg was about 5 higher I'd be interested, but otherwise no thanks.

-Z-


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## giantkiller7

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

I would love AD back but we're set at the point IMO and it would not be worth a first rounder--also, Mike James has only had really one good year, and he's more of an undersized 2 than a true 1. Additionally, there are much more pressing needs on our team, like a scoring big man. I'd love to have AD back as a coach or advisor though.


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## butr

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

I suppose I was listening to a lot of the rumours about one of Ben or Chris leaving. So this idea was working based on those ideas at the point.


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## step

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

Interesting.


> Talks involving the Knicks' interest in Portland's Theo Ratliff and Darius Miles have moved back to the forefront, according to a Western Conference personnel expert. Orlando's Steve Francis and Denver's Kenyon Martin seem to be fading as Knicks trade targets.





> If the Knicks want Ratliff and Miles, all they have to do is include Lee -- "the finishing piece," as the Western Conference personnel expert put it -- along with Hardaway's contract.


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## rosenthall

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

That seems like an awful lot for Portland to give up. If they do that, they'd have to be either in extreme cost-cutting mode, or know something nobody else does about Darius Miles' injury problems.

David Lee is alright, but he's still just a marginal player, who I think would have a hard time seeing the floor on that team, and even with this trade, I don't think they're underneath the cap all that much. It's a little bit, but I don't think even as much as the MLE, it doesn't really seem to help them in anyway.


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## rosenthall

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

It looks like the Lakers are in the hunt for Francis as well. 

Orlando Sentinel - Add the Los Angeles Lakers to the list of possible suitors for Orlando Magic guard Steve Francis. 

Personally, I think Lamar Odom on the Magic would be an interesting scenario. With Dwight and Odom, and Darko and Vasquez coming over, they'd have a productive frontcourt right now, and wouldn't need to rush either of the young guys along, and I imagine Lamar could play with any of them. 

The only thing that makes me think the Magic wouldn't want to do it is his contract. I don't think Odom's drastically overpaid, but 4 years and 51 million is nothing to sneeze at for a team that seems to be facing financial hardships.


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## MikeDC

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



rosenthall said:


> It looks like the Lakers are in the hunt for Francis as well.
> 
> Orlando Sentinel - Add the Los Angeles Lakers to the list of possible suitors for Orlando Magic guard Steve Francis.
> 
> Personally, I think Lamar Odom on the Magic would be an interesting scenario. With Dwight and Odom, and Darko and Vasquez coming over, they'd have a productive frontcourt right now, and wouldn't need to rush either of the young guys along, and I imagine Lamar could play with any of them.
> 
> The only thing that makes me think the Magic wouldn't want to do it is his contract. I don't think Odom's drastically overpaid, but 4 years and 51 million is nothing to sneeze at for a team that seems to be facing financial hardships.


I'd take Odom over Francis every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Especially for the Lakers. How does his game fit the triangle? (It doesn't).

If they want him, I can't imagine they'd give up Odom to get him. Maybe if the Magic were giving up Hill too. That'd be a power play for the Lakers if Hill gets healthy, and it'd make some sense for the Magic to clear salary.

Lakers trade: Odom, Kwame, Devean George, Medvedenko
Magic trade: Hill, Francis, Bo Outlaw, Mario Kasun

The Lakers
1- Francis, Smush, Sasha
2- Kobe, McKie
3- Hill, Walton
4- Cook, Turiaf, Outlaw
5- Mihm, Kasun, Bynum


I don't think they'd beat the Spurs or Mavs with that team, but they might make it interesting.

The Magic get some cap relief, the only bad contract they take back is Kwame. Odom is reasonable for his age and production, and makes a very nice complement to Howard. 

1- Nelson, Dooling, Diener
2- Stevenson, Augmon
3- Hedo, George
4- Odom, Darko, Garrity
5- Howard, Kwame

From a rebuilding perspective, not bad... they grab a few guys (Darko, Kwame) off the scrap heap who may one day do something interesting. They've got young guys at most every position and a few guys (Odom, Hedo, Howard) who are pretty good already and may get better.


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## rosenthall

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



Mikedc said:


> I'd take Odom over Francis every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Especially for the Lakers. How does his game fit the triangle? (It doesn't).
> 
> If they want him, I can't imagine they'd give up Odom to get him. Maybe if the Magic were giving up Hill too. That'd be a power play for the Lakers if Hill gets healthy, and it'd make some sense for the Magic to clear salary.
> 
> Lakers trade: Odom, Kwame, Devean George, Medvedenko
> Magic trade: Hill, Francis, Bo Outlaw, Mario Kasun
> 
> The Lakers
> 1- Francis, Smush, Sasha
> 2- Kobe, McKie
> 3- Hill, Walton
> 4- Cook, Turiaf, Outlaw
> 5- Mihm, Kasun, Bynum
> 
> 
> I don't think they'd beat the Spurs or Mavs with that team, but they might make it interesting.
> 
> The Magic get some cap relief, the only bad contract they take back is Kwame. Odom is reasonable for his age and production, and makes a very nice complement to Howard.
> 
> 1- Nelson, Dooling, Diener
> 2- Stevenson, Augmon
> 3- Hedo, George
> 4- Odom, Darko, Garrity
> 5- Howard, Kwame
> 
> From a rebuilding perspective, not bad... they grab a few guys (Darko, Kwame) off the scrap heap who may one day do something interesting. They've got young guys at most every position and a few guys (Odom, Hedo, Howard) who are pretty good already and may get better.



Yeah, the deal didn't immediately make a lot of sense to me for the Lakers, but if Grant Hill were included, that would make it more plausible. Especially since I think his contract comes off the books in 07', so it wouldn't hurt their cap room that they seem to be saving up, but it might be a reasonable risk to take.

I have a difficult time seeing Steve Francis and Kobe Bryant co-existing in the same backcourt, although I actually think Steve Francis could be pretty dangerous in the triangle, if he'd be willing. (But of course, he hasn't really been willing to play any other way but his own for his entire career, so I guess the odds of that happening probably aren't that good). Grant Hill, however, would be custom made for it, if healthy. Actually, the thought of him and Kobe Bryant in that offense together is pretty daunting. 

Hah, also, if that deal went through Orlando would have to be the biggest junkyard of big man reclamation projects in the League with Odom, Kwame, and Darko.


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## rosenthall

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

Also, I just looked on trade-checker and 

Hakim Warrick
Lorenzen Wright
Bobby Jackson
#1 draft pick

for 

Steve Francis
Mario Kasun

works. I think it'd be a reasonably fair trade. The magic would get rid of Francis' salary, and the only guy with any salary beyond this year coming back would be Hakim Warrick, who's on his rookie deal. With cap space being equal, I think I'd prefer Hakim and a draft pick to Jamal Crawford, especially if I was being cost conscious. 

I also think that if you're going to get rid of Francis for salary reasons, then it kinda makes to try and unload Grant Hill also. (Although, knowing Steve Francis, there may be other reasons as well). Orlando is actually one of the teams that would really benefit from being underneath the cap, since they'd probably have an inherent advantage in attracting FA's with their location and tax laws. Clearing space for 07' makes about as much sense for them as much as any other team. If they could sign one marquee free agent to go along with Dwight Howard, they could be set.


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## The ROY

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

I like a Odom for Gooden + change Swap myself (say maybe, damon jones)...

G 
G Hughes
F James
F Odom
C Ilgauskus

they'd litterally be a POINT GUARD away from the ECF


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## rosenthall

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/39230/20060219/kgs_status_holding_up_other_trades/



> Mercury News - Kevin Garnett's status, perhaps more than anything, is holding up any truly major deals involving the elite stars of the game. The feeling around the NBA remains - based more on observation than actual information - that something inevitably will crack in Minnesota and Garnett will be traded or ask to be traded.


Interesting rumor. Maybe this is the reasons guys like Kenyon, Francis, and everyone the Knicks are rumoured to be interested haven't been moved around yet? It also mentions the Bulls as possible suitors. Would you trade our 2 picks, Luol, and TT for KG?? I'd think long and hard about it. So far, I'm surprised at the lack of deals that have taken place so far, but I get the impression that it's more or less turning into a waiting game, where everyone is waiting to see what everyone else will do, which is slowing things down. If I had to guess, I'd say there's a bunch of posturing, and then a flurry of activity starting 24-48 hours before the deadline.


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## El Chapu

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



rosenthall said:


> http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/39230/20060219/kgs_status_holding_up_other_trades/
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting rumor. Maybe this is the reasons guys like Kenyon, Francis, and everyone the Knicks are rumoured to be interested haven't been moved around yet? It also mentions the Bulls as possible suitors. Would you trade our 2 picks, Luol, and TT for KG?? I'd think long and hard about it. So far, I'm surprised at the lack of deals that have taken place so far, but I get the impression that it's more or less turning into a waiting game, where everyone is waiting to see what everyone else will do, which is slowing things down. If I had to guess, I'd say there's a bunch of posturing, and then a flurry of activity starting 24-48 hours before the deadline.


I thought that guy was Ron Artest with his domino effect...


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## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



El Chapu said:


> I thought that guy was Ron Artest with his domino effect...


:biggrin: 

Hey, I still think the Wally/Davis trade vindicated my domino theory! But no, there weren't quite as many trades as I expected right after Ron Ron was dealt.


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## Rhyder

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



rosenthall said:


> http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/39230/20060219/kgs_status_holding_up_other_trades/
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting rumor. Maybe this is the reasons guys like Kenyon, Francis, and everyone the Knicks are rumoured to be interested haven't been moved around yet? It also mentions the Bulls as possible suitors. Would you trade our 2 picks, Luol, and TT for KG?? I'd think long and hard about it. So far, I'm surprised at the lack of deals that have taken place so far, but I get the impression that it's more or less turning into a waiting game, where everyone is waiting to see what everyone else will do, which is slowing things down. If I had to guess, I'd say there's a bunch of posturing, and then a flurry of activity starting 24-48 hours before the deadline.


As I posted in the other thread mentioning this:

_Chicago sends Luol Deng, Tim Thomas, Eric Piatkowski, Chris Duhon, Malik Allen and two 2006 first-round picks (New York's and Chicago's) to Minnesota for Garnett and Jaric.

Our depth chart
PG Hinirch/Jaric
SG Gordon/Jaric
SF Nocioni
PF Chandler/Songaila
C Garnett/Harrington/Sweetney

We re-sign Songaila and use our MLE to grab the best available wing (can be a combo player but a 3/2 would make more sense then another 3/4 in the Nocioni mold). We then sign a big vet to the minimum. AD would probably be ideal since he knows our system already and is probably unlikely to sign elsewhere.

This could be our team heading into next season:
PG Hinrich/Jaric/Pargo
SG Gordon/Jaric/Pargo
SF Nocioni/Posey (or another FA)
PF Chandler/Songaila/Harrington
C Garnett/AD (or another FA)/Sweetney

That looks like a team that can make it past the first round on paper already. In this sort of deal, I'd actually rather trade Minnesota Sweetney and keep Allen. That might allow us to keep our own draft pick as well._


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## ScottMay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

Marty Burns is saying the Orlando-Knicks deal is basically done, but minor details are being hammered out and the Magic could wait until the last second just in case something better comes along.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/marty_burns/02/21/francis/index.html


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## step

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



> Neither team's officials will comment on any ongoing trade talks, but it is likely Jamal Crawford and Maurice Taylor would be included.


Dear god, is that the best they can get for Francis.
I'd be more inclined to the Lakers offer.


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## jnrjr79

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

Is this a trade that actually hurts both teams involved?


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## step

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



> Is this a trade that actually hurts both teams involved?


When you consider a lineup that has Francis, Marbury and Rose, poor Frye and Curry will never see the ball.
I'm tempted to offer our pick for Frye!


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## ScottMay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



jnrjr79 said:


> Is this a trade that actually hurts both teams involved?


I think that Orlando is at exactly the same point with Steve Francis that we were with Jalen Rose -- they just need to move him, even if it hurts in the short term. 

Luckily for them, I think Crawford is a better player than Francis right now.


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## rosenthall

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



jnrjr79 said:


> Is this a trade that actually hurts both teams involved?


I'm a bit torn on the Francis trade. You can't deny his talent, and paired with Marbury, they'd create a lot of mismatches, but it's still more of the same of what the Knicks have been doing since Isiah took over. And I don't know if I could think of a worse situation for Steve Francis to go into, with an irritable, demanding coach, a bad team w/ internal conflict and the NY media to deal with, the whole scenario seems like a paper tiger. 

Right now, I'm leaning towards it helping in the short term, possibly for the rest of the season, but starting sometime next year the foundations will start to crack and the situation will cave in on itself.


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## The ROY

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



step said:


> When you consider a lineup that has Francis, Marbury and Rose, poor Frye and Curry will never see the ball.
> I'm tempted to offer our pick for Frye!


u could offer it...but u still wouldn't get him


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## step

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



> u could offer it...but u still wouldn't get him


Nevermind, you missed it.


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## truebluefan

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

Awful quiet for a trade deadline isnt it? IT hasnt made a trade either!


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## bigdbucks

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

would the bulls like to have Jamaal Magloire? i've been reading that he is possibly on the block....what would the bulls give up?


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## TripleDouble

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



bigdbucks said:


> would the bulls like to have Jamaal Magloire? i've been reading that he is possibly on the block....what would the bulls give up?


I don't think the Bucks will be able to get good value for Magloire considering his outrageous contract demands and only solid play. 

If I were the Bulls I'd be willing to give up something like Sweetney, Pike, Harrington and the Bulls pick this season.


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## fl_flash

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



ScottMay said:


> I think that Orlando is at exactly the same point with Steve Francis that we were with Jalen Rose -- they just need to move him, even if it hurts in the short term.
> 
> Luckily for them, I think Crawford is a better player than Francis right now.


If the deal really is Crawford and Mo Taylor for Francis, I think Orlando did well. I think Crawford might well have found a home in Orlando and I think he'll flourish. Right now, I'd agree with you and call Jamal the best player in the deal. Away from the glare and drama that is the Knicks, this might well be the kind of situation that Crawford can solidify his play and become a very solid guy night in and night out.

For the Knicks, this just smaks of Zeke making a move simply to make a move and not considering whatsoever the baskeball ramifications. Just something to divert attention from both his off-court and on-court failures. Francis is a damn good player but him joining the asylum in NYC isn't going to do anybody any good. I just can't see so many guys who need the ball in their hands co-existing in Gothem. Also, Francis is hardly a stellar defender, so he'll fit right in in that respect!


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## HuntDizzle

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

What would you all think of this deal? It's a less Major deal that I think would actually be considered by all 3 teams. 


Chicago:
Outgoing: Duhon: $2,799,983 
Pargo: $985,000

Incoming: Mihm: $3,813,750

Benefit: Bulls get a legit starting Center to pair w/ Chandler and at a cheap price which doesn't jeopardize their cap space this summer. Helps to relieve the backcourt logjam.


Lakers: 
Outgoing: Mihm: $3,813,750

Incoming: Gooden: $4,065,811
Pargo: $985,000 

Benefit: Lakers get starting PF for future who they can resign, and pickup speedy defensive PG. They may not want to trade Mihm, but what's the likelyhood that they'll resign him in 2 years when Bynum is ready to step up? Plus, they can move Kwame to start at Center until Bynum is ready. Lakers waive Slava or send him off in another deal to make room for Pargo.


Cleveland:
Outgoing: Gooden: $4,065,811

Incoming: Duhon: $2,799,383

Benefit: Cavs get great value in the expiring contract of Gooden, whom everyone kows they don't plan to re-sign. Duhon is the perfect fit as a smart PG who can pass, defend, and has improved his jumper. HUGE upgrade in the Cavs backcourt.



What do you guys think? I think that would be a great deal for all teams involved. AS a Laker fan, I'd almost rather have Duhon end up here, but we REALLY need someone who can score in the post. Giving up Mihm doesn't help that, but I don't think he's part of the future in a couple years, so may as well get good value for him while we can.

Werd.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->


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## Wynn

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



bigdbucks said:


> would the bulls like to have Jamaal Magloire? i've been reading that he is possibly on the block....what would the bulls give up?


I'd be willing to give up a pretty good amount. Some package involving Deng or Noc, our own 1st rounder, and any of O'Fella, Songaila, Sweets, Allen, Pargo, Piatkowski, Basden, Duhon.

Let's say Nocioni, Duhon, Sweets, and our own first rounder.


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## TripleDouble

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



Wynn said:


> I'd be willing to give up a pretty good amount. Some package involving Deng or Noc, our own 1st rounder, and any of O'Fella, Songaila, Sweets, Allen, Pargo, Piatkowski, Basden, Duhon.
> 
> Let's say Nocioni, Duhon, Sweets, and our own first rounder.


Are you Canadian?


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## The ROY

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



Wynn said:


> I'd be willing to give up a pretty good amount. Some package involving Deng or Noc, our own 1st rounder, and any of O'Fella, Songaila, Sweets, Allen, Pargo, Piatkowski, Basden, Duhon.
> 
> Let's say Nocioni, Duhon, Sweets, and our own first rounder.


why kinda crack are u smokin??

magloire is nowhere NEAR that good...


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## SausageKingofChicago

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

Props to the Magic 

I like Nelson and Crawford in the backcourt and I am a big believer in the Milicic/Howard front court

They need some vet support at guard to go with Dooling , Stevensen and Diener 

Battie and Taylor backs up the front court 

And Hill , if healthy is backed up by Hedo at the 3 

Plus a good crack at a wing player in the top 10 in this draft 

Hill and Taylor's contracts come off next year and they should have a boatload of cap space in 2007 ( probably with another lottery pick next year as well ) 

If Darko pans out and Jamal can finally find a home they really seem to be heading in the right direction

I like what they're doing


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

LOL @ Jamal doing ANYTHING in orlando...

he hasn't been good enough to start in two major markets on bad teams...

no way he's gonna do much out there...


----------



## truth

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



step said:


> Dear god, is that the best they can get for Francis.
> I'd be more inclined to the Lakers offer.


My feelings exactly....

One year you are traded for Tmac and the next year all you are worth is MoT and JC??


----------



## bigdbucks

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



TripleDouble said:


> I don't think the Bucks will be able to get good value for Magloire considering his outrageous contract demands and only solid play.
> 
> If I were the Bulls I'd be willing to give up something like Sweetney, Pike, Harrington and the Bulls pick this season.


I think there is no way that Milwaukee would want anything other than that pick....There is absolutely no chance of Magloire signing in Milwaukee with Redd at the max and Mo Will, TJ and Andrew all prolly lookin for money....I look forward to seeing what happens to Magloire.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



The ROY said:


> why kinda crack are u smokin??
> 
> magloire is nowhere NEAR that good...


Which piece do you feel is too much? A true center (6'11") who keeps defenses honest, provides a presence in the paint, and pulls down 10 boards/game has got to be worth more than spare parts. While I like Noc and Du, and think we can get a useful player witht the pick, I think all are easier to replace than what Magloire could provide.

Do you have an offer?


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



Wynn said:


> Which piece do you feel is too much? A true center (6'11") who keeps defenses honest, provides a presence in the paint, and pulls down 10 boards/game has got to be worth more than spare parts. While I like Noc and Du, and think we can get a useful player witht the pick, I think all are easier to replace than what Magloire could provide.
> 
> Do you have an offer?


The problem is that Magloire is apparantly demanding the max -- hence the Bucks plan to trade him. He is in no way a max player and a lineup of he and Chandler would cost a pretty penny and barely touch 20 ppg combined. The Bulls would end up paying 1 million a year per point per game averaged with those two.


----------



## truebluefan

*OT:Knicks close in on Francis*

Could Stevie Franchise soon be bound for Broadway?

The Knicks and Magic are close to a deal that would send three-time All-Star guard *Steve Francis* to New York for a package of players, according to two league sources. Details of the trade were still being worked out, according to one of the sources, who emphasized that it had yet to be completed. The Magic apparently have decided to wait until the last minute before Thursday's trade deadline to see if any better offers come up.

If the trade goes through, it would represent yet another high-profile acquisition for Knicks president *Isiah Thomas*, who already has added *Larry Brown*, *Quentin Richardson*, *Eddy Curry* and *Jalen Rose* this season alone. The 6-foot-3 Francis has averaged 19.4 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.4 assists over his seven-year NBA career. He would join *Stephon Marbury* to form a backcourt with a combined five All-Star appearances.

The Knicks apparently are ready to send three players, including two regular members of the rotation, to Orlando in the deal. Neither team's officials will comment on any ongoing trade talks, but it is likely *Jamal Crawford* and *Maurice Taylor* would be included. The Magic are in a rebuilding mode, and the 6-5 Crawford is considered an intriguing young talent who would be able to step in and help fill the team's hole at shooting guard. Taylor would likely be included to help make the salaries match Francis' $13.7 million a year.

Complete Article


----------



## Scinos

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

Here's a tidbit from the Sonics rumor man David Locke. Take it for what it's worth... 



> The Sonics and the Chicago Bulls have had conversations about Chris Duhon for Reggie Evans. The Bulls are all over the map at this time and there is no deal that is imminent. The Sonics would probably rather do this deal then the Denver deal if Chicago buys in. According, to some sources the Bulls are unwilling to move Duhon.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



TripleDouble said:


> The problem is that Magloire is apparantly demanding the max -- hence the Bucks plan to trade him. He is in no way a max player and a lineup of he and Chandler would cost a pretty penny and barely touch 20 ppg combined. The Bulls would end up paying 1 million a year per point per game averaged with those two.


I understand where you're coming from, but demanding the MAX and getting the MAX are two different things..... "find an offer and we'll match it." Unlike Milwaukee, we can afford to pay for a winner. Magloire is a big inside presence good for 10 and 10 a night who has shown he can play 30 minutes/game.

Magloire + Tyson = 15.6ppg + 19rpg
Wallace + Wallace = 23.1ppg + 18.8rpg

How much is it worth?


----------



## nanokooshball

*Re: OT:Knicks close in on Francis*

you've gotta be kidding me? 

A Francis/Marbury 1/2 backcourt?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!??! 

LOL.... Brown is going to shoot himself.........


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT:Knicks close in on Francis*

If this trade goes down the Knicks are going to miss Mo Taylor. Some say Lee will also be included. 

If they give up Taylor and Lee for Francis, they will be very thin on the front line. They will struggle to rebound and their interior defense will be entirely absent. Exactly when and where will their phenom Robinson play?

Knicks will look like a poor man's Harlem Globetrotters. This trade will make them worse both in the short term and the long term -- particularly if Lee is included.

IT appears to have lost it altogether. We will get a very good pick this year, and probably next year as well.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT:Knicks close in on Francis*



> The Sonics and the Chicago Bulls have had conversations about Chris Duhon for Reggie Evans. *The Bulls are all over the map at this time* and there is no deal that is imminent. The Sonics would probably rather do this deal then the Denver deal if Chicago buys in. *According, to some sources the Bulls are unwilling to move Duhon.*


thanks *scinos* for this tidbit. 



are they kidding? the bulls i mean. mancrush gone wild. why do i think ben or even kirk would get moved before duhon? 

sorry. feeling super cynical today! 

oh, and LOL at the knicks. classic.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT:Knicks close in on Francis*

Marbury/Francis/Rose.

LOL.


----------



## dsouljah9

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



> The Sonics and the Chicago Bulls have had conversations about Chris Duhon for Reggie Evans. The Bulls are all over the map at this time and there is no deal that is imminent. The Sonics would probably rather do this deal then the Denver deal if Chicago buys in. According, to some sources the Bulls are unwilling to move Duhon.


_*Another* _"tweener" power forward?!! Please! I'm with the Bulls on this one, I'm unwilling to move Duhon, especially for Evans. Now if they said the name "Rashard Lewis" then I'd be more than willing to free up Duhon.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT:Knicks close in on Francis*



kukoc4ever said:


> Marbury/Francis/Rose.
> 
> LOL.


1 basketball for these three guys? HA! It's like throwing a steak to the dogs.


----------



## narek

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*

Larry Harris was on the Bucks pre-game show and the hosts asked him if he had any trades brewing and he said no. They didn't ask specifically about the Magloire trade rumors - Harris said he told the GMs Friday in Houston that he was happy with his team and wanted to see where it would go. Trading Magloire now when they're fighting for position in the playoffs doesn't make a great deal of sense.

Harris was also wearing the a very loud suit.


----------



## BG7

*OT: Rumor - Allen Iverson Traded to Denver!*

That is what is being reported on NBA Coast 2 Coast.


----------



## giantkiller7

*Re: Allen Iverson Traded to Denver!*

I had it on 5 minutes ago and they didn't say he was traded, they said he was almost traded, but wasn't. They had a discussion on it for about ten minutes and never once did they imply that he was still available for trade, or that any kind of deal for him was anywhere close to going through. They certainly never said he was traded.

I think we would have heard about it if it had happened. Do you seriously think they wouldn't blow this up like crazy? You would have heard about it. I think we wait until tomorrow before any serious moves are made.


----------



## BG7

*Re: Allen Iverson Traded to Denver!*



giantkiller7 said:


> I had it on 5 minutes ago and they didn't say he was traded, they said he was almost traded, but wasn't. They had a discussion on it for about ten minutes and never once did they imply that he was still available for trade, or that any kind of deal for him was anywhere close to going through. They certainly never said he was traded.
> 
> I think we would have heard about it if it had happened. Do you seriously think they wouldn't blow this up like crazy? You would have heard about it. I think we wait until tomorrow before any serious moves are made.


Thats not the way arenas told it.


----------



## giantkiller7

*Re: Allen Iverson Traded to Denver!*



sloth said:


> Thats not the way arenas told it.


Who the heck is Arenas? Not Gilbert.

Did you actually watch it, or did you just see the line of text that said "AI ALMOST traded to Denver" and immediately jump all over this forum? I'm leaning towards the latter... He was nowhere near being traded. They blew it up immediately.


----------



## BG7

*Re: Allen Iverson Traded to Denver!*

arenas is a guy with the last name arenas, known for his bulls hate, lets put it that way. He made a thread on NBA general, and no one in that thread that watched it is saying what your saying, they all say its a good posisbility.


----------



## giantkiller7

*Re: Allen Iverson Traded to Denver!*



sloth said:


> arenas is a guy with the last name arenas, known for his bulls hate, lets put it that way. He made a thread on NBA general, and no one in that thread that watched it is saying what your saying, they all say its a good posisbility.


So you didn't see it. If you had, you would have known that they shot it down immediately. I guess everyone else that watched the show is blind and deaf, then.

Do you even know who it was for? Nene and Earl Watson.


----------



## Showtyme

*Re: Allen Iverson Traded to Denver!*

WOW. Even this rumor is beyond comprehension.


----------



## giantkiller7

*Re: Allen Iverson Traded to Denver!*



sloth said:


> arenas is a guy with the last name arenas, known for his bulls hate, lets put it that way. He made a thread on NBA general, and no one in that thread that watched it is saying what your saying, they all say its a good posisbility.


LOL did you read the thread? "no one that watched it is saying what you're saying"... "it's a good possibility..." only ONE PERSON watched it, and he said don't immediately rule it out, and the majority of the thread is everyone else disagreeing with him

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?t=244002

"they all say it's a good possibility," LOL, nobody said that. at all.


----------



## spongyfungy

*Re: Allen Iverson Traded to Denver!*

I thought Billy King told him specifically that he would not be traded


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Allen Iverson Traded to Denver!*

Edit: edit to topic title soothed my anger.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Allen Iverson Traded to Denver!*



spongyfungy said:


> I thought Billy King told him specifically that he would not be traded


never, EVER believe a GM


----------



## The ROY

*OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*

Christopher Reina/RealGM - A source close to the participants in the talks told Christopher Reina late Tuesday night that New York and Minnesota are in serious and ongoing discussions about a deal which would send Kevin Garnett to the Knicks in exchange for Penny Hardaway and Channing Frye. Isiah Thomas, who has called Frye untouchable all season, is willing to give up the sought after rookie to land the future Hall of Famer.

Garnett has made it clear to the front office that should he be dealt, he wants to go to New York and that wish will be fulfilled if the Timberwolves decide to end the KG era and begin to rebuild. They reportedly respect Garnett and all that he has done for both the franchise and the area would try to trade him to his preferred team.

The question of if the Wolves want to move on without Garnett will be the deciding factor in whether a trade gets completed before Thursday.

This deal delayed last week's Knicks discussions with the Magic regarding Steve Francis and it is why it will be Jamal Crawford and Maurice Taylor going to Orlando for their first time, instead of Hardaway’s second. That deal is all but complete, but Orlando is waiting to see if Denver returns to the table before the deadline.

If the Wolves choose to retain Garnett, the Knicks will turn to Denver and Kenyon Martin, a player that Larry Brown covets


----------



## The ROY

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*

G Marbury
G Francis
F Rose
F Garnett
C Curry

yeah..I'll believe it when I SEE it...


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*

Wow, Channing Frye and cap space might be all it takes for Garnett? 

Man, is it important to draft well or what?

Edit: We can top this deal, can't we? Isn't Gordon/Deng plus Thomas and New York's pick a better deal?


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...YF?slug=sk-rankings022106&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

*28.* Portland Trail Blazers (18-33, Last ranking: 28) – Darius Miles' name is being thrown around as the trade deadline approaches.


----------



## giantkiller7

*Re: Allen Iverson Traded to Denver!*



spongyfungy said:


> I thought Billy King told him specifically that he would not be traded


Yeah, Danny Ainge told Toine the same thing twice.


----------



## mizenkay

*merged!*

one big happy trade rumors thread!





> Garnett has made it clear to the front office that should he be dealt, he wants to go to New York and that wish will be fulfilled if the Timberwolves decide to end the KG era and begin to rebuild. They reportedly respect Garnett and all that he has done for both the franchise and the area would try to trade him to his preferred team.



KG _wants_ to go to the knicks? wow. 

Penny and Channing is all it takes? double wow.

The Jamal and Eddy BFF era over in NYC? words fail. 

and no deals on the horizon for the bulls. pax is gonna play these.


----------



## T.Shock

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

If Paxson heard this and didn't call McHale right away offering Deng, Thomas, Knicks 1st round pick, and what the hell Duhon too, then this doesn't make sense to me. He's gotta beat the Knicks to the punch. Gotta.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

BTW, if the Knicks successfully trade for Garnett, New York's winning percentage would probably pick up, and their 06 first rounder would start decreasing in value.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

the guy who posts as *jgeils* over at realgm and is *kelly dwyer* of SI in real life, says that the knicks are using the realgm writer to get the story out to drive up the value of frye.

no way in a rational universe is KG worth penny and channing freakin' frye.

lol.


http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=482292&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=12



best part is that there are knicks fans at realgm that think that's TOO MUCH for KG. god bless 'em.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

NO is trading J.R. Smith...they say he won't be on the team by the deadline..

um, big, GUARD? athletic? how come we aren't trading for this kid??!


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

McHale would need to be ejected from the league if did that trade.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



The ROY said:


> NO is trading J.R. Smith...they say he won't be on the team by the deadline..
> 
> um, big, GUARD? athletic? how come we aren't trading for this kid??!


It begins with a J and ends with a B?


----------



## jbulls

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



The ROY said:


> NO is trading J.R. Smith...they say he won't be on the team by the deadline..
> 
> um, big, GUARD? athletic? how come we aren't trading for this kid??!


Good question.

Has anyone seen much of Smith this year? Has there ever been a HS player who averaged double digits his first year in the league and fell off this dramatically in year two? Smith hasn't played 10 minutes since Jan 21. He hasn't played 20 since January 7. What's the deal?


----------



## step

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



> best part is that there are knicks fans at realgm that think that's TOO MUCH for KG. god bless 'em


Oh that's great, made me laugh for a good while.


----------



## The ROY

*Anybody else Afraid That The Knicks Might...*

drastically improve after they're trades and turn our top 3 pick into something 5-13?

they're also talking about moving quentin to minnesota for marko jaric...

G Marbury
G Francis
F Rose
F Frye
C Curry

given, on paper, the trades don't make them much better but hell they COULD go on a run.

I want RUDY GAY! dammnit *edited* he's PERFECT for this team.

http://www.youtube.com/w/Rudy-Gay?v=iufzhFl1VGI


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Anybody else Afraid That The Knicks Might...*

Marc Stein reported :

That leaves New York as the only known trade partner in circulation for Francis. In what would be an audacious double swoop -- even by Knicks standards -- it appears that Isiah will have an opportunity to package Jamal Crawford, Maurice Taylor and a youngster like Trevor Ariza for Francis . . . and then use Penny Hardaway's expiring contract (along with at least one first-round pick) to acquire Portland's Darius Miles and Theo Ratliff.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: Anybody else Afraid That The Knicks Might...*

While I share your anxieties somewhat, I also can't think of a marquee player that the Knicks _haven't_ been rumoured to be in discussions about. Isiah Thomas is an attention slut of a GM if there ever was one. I imagine a part of it is just due to the media intensive nature of the NY sports scene, and also due to Isiah's gunslinging approach to GM'ing. But whatever the reason, the Knicks have been involved in every trade rumour until Kingdom-come.

If I had to guess, I'd say the Francis rumour has some real legs to it, although there have been conflicting reports coming out of Orlando. I'd imagine there's some truth to the Portland rumours as well, but I doubt it happens for just Penny and a pick.

The KG rumour however, I think is complete mularkey. To quote The Sausage King, I'll slam my nuts in a drawer if KG gets traded for Channing Frye and Penny Hardaway.

So, while I'll be surprised if the Knicks don't make some sort of deal, somehow I don't think they'll be trading for KG, Jaric, Francis, Theo Ratliff, Darius Miles and the Queen of England in the next two days like they've been rumoured to, and I'll reserve judgement until after the deadline has passed.


----------



## 4door

*Re: Anybody else Afraid That The Knicks Might...*

I think these trades hurt them in the long run, not help them. They might be able to put together a few more wins, but it will come down to luck of the draw for us because Atlanta and Charlotte will finish worse than the Knicks either way. Gay will not go #1 anyways so I think we have a real shot, the draft order will really come down to who wins the draft. I couldn't see Atlanta picking ANOTHER smal forward, they would go with alderidge. 

zeke is going to load up his team with head-cases, max contracts, 30 year old former all-stars, and shoot-first tweeners. Oh, yea he already has. Francis and Marbury will be a joke! Curry down low with Jerome James backing him up? JALEN ROSE!!! These are some of the worse defensive players in the NBA at their positions, I can not see them doing that much better with these trades. Games are not played on paper, you need a group that are willing to work hard on winning within the system. I don't think they have one player (other than the rookies) that could care less about winning more games this season.


----------



## Showtyme

*Re: Anybody else Afraid That The Knicks Might...*



The ROY said:


> Marc Stein reported :
> 
> That leaves New York as the only known trade partner in circulation for Francis. In what would be an audacious double swoop -- even by Knicks standards -- it appears that Isiah will have an opportunity to package Jamal Crawford, Maurice Taylor and a youngster like Trevor Ariza for Francis . . . and then use Penny Hardaway's expiring contract (along with at least one first-round pick) to acquire Portland's Darius Miles and Theo Ratliff.


Thus leading to the absolute most punk and gangster roster of guys in the history of the entire NBA. This team won't be able to get 20 wins this season because they'll be busy punching each other in the face.

Instead of heading towards an Ariza-Frye-Lee-Nate Robinson focus, Isaiah feels like he's ready to turn his assets into more endless talent. The problem with IT is that while he has a great eye for talent (he generally drafts really very decently), he doesn't understand that sometimes, after a few yeras in the NBA, it's too late to capitalize on that potential. Every single one of his guys are poster boys for Potential. Marbury has all the skills and physical talent to be the best point guard in the league. So does Francis, for that matter. Curry is probably the most agile and offensively dominant low block player in the league, maybe after Shaq. Crawford has been labeled the quickest and sickest player in the league by some of his peers. Darius Miles was supposed to become KG-lite. Jalen Rose was the Future of Pacers basketball at one point, almost viewed like the hero of the franchise.

But talent just doesn't win championships. He can't run this team like the Yankees. Basketball requires too much teamwork. We've seen really talented teams sputter in the past, like the Big Three Wizards, or the pre-Wade Heat, or the pre-Kobe Lakers. The Knicks may eventually turn it around, but too many egos in one locker room...

You have to hand it to Isaiah, he's rolling the dice. But if this doesn't pan out, he'll be considered second maybe to Rick Pitino for worst GM in recent memory.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Wow, Channing Frye and cap space might be all it takes for Garnett?
> 
> Man, is it important to draft well or what?
> 
> Edit: We can top this deal, can't we? Isn't Gordon/Deng plus Thomas and New York's pick a better deal?


It doesn't matter if we can or not. That's the other thing about trading for a superstar... they're often calling their own shots about where they're going to go. If this is true, KG is calling the Knicks (somewhat like Shaq limited the number of places he'd go) and there ain't a hell of a lot we can do about it.


----------



## Fizer Fanatic

*Re: Anybody else Afraid That The Knicks Might...*

The types of players Isaiah has been getting aside, if Isaiah keeps turning over the roster every second day, Brown won't get time to teach them anything before they go and they'll form no chemistry. Trade away, Isaiah, I think it's probably in our best interests in the short-term.

Random thought: I think there really should be some kind of a 'hard' salary cap (can't be exceeded no matter what) somewhere around 130-150% of our current 'soft' salary cap. It's crazy how Isaiah turns their ending contracts into many more years of overpaying to get talent/picks (ala, the Rose deal).


----------



## step

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



> That's the other thing about trading for a superstar... they're often calling their own shots about where they're going to go. If this is true, KG is calling the Knicks (somewhat like Shaq limited the number of places he'd go) and there ain't a hell of a lot we can do about it.


It was easier for Shaq to call the shots due to him being up for an extension, no sane GM would of gave up ~$30M in players unless they were certain he'd stay.
I would try to accommodate KG on this, only due to the fact that he hasn't taken it to the media, but if all they can get back is Penny and Frye, you'd have to pass. McHale screwed the T-Wolves once before, if he does this deal he'll be screwing them again.


----------



## step

*Re: Anybody else Afraid That The Knicks Might...*

I can see them slightly improving, but I can also seem them digging a deeper hole. In the end I'm not too worried, even if they do this their schedule isn't too kind:
22 - Miami
24 - New Jersey
25 - @ Washington
27 - @ San Antonio
1 - @ Memphis
3 - Chicago
4 - @ Milwaukee
7 - @ Indiana


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: Anybody else Afraid That The Knicks Might...*

I think Francis=Crawford, they almost even themselves out. The idea that they trade Crawford, Ariza and Taylor for Francis? This is a nice trade for Orlando. In essence they keep Francis so to speak and add a nice SF and a backup pf free!

As for NY...Some nights one of the guns will get hot and carry the knicks. Other nights they will take turns jacking up shots. Trying to get their share of attempts. 

If I were LB, I would become ill all of a sudden and take a leave. 

As for NY getting Miles, Ratliff for Hardaway...I dont see Portland giving them away.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



step said:


> It was easier for Shaq to call the shots due to him being up for an extension, no sane GM would of gave up ~$30M in players unless they were certain he'd stay.
> I would try to accommodate KG on this, only due to the fact that he hasn't taken it to the media, but if all they can get back is Penny and Frye, you'd have to pass. McHale screwed the T-Wolves once before, if he does this deal he'll be screwing them again.


I dunno... would you want to take the chance of acquiring KG and having him be unhappy here? My take is that if a guy says he doesn't _want_ to come to you, then you're taking a pretty big risk in acquiring him.

That's a little different than McHale having to say yes. He's got more leverage there... if KG wants the Knicks and they want him, they have to give McHale something to get the deal done. Bargaining is pretty cool like that... everyone has a pretty much a veto in the situation.

The point I was making was that the threat of KG not wanting to go to a team is probably enough to scare away most suitors.


----------



## Showtyme

*Re: Anybody else Afraid That The Knicks Might...*



Fizer Fanatic said:


> The types of players Isaiah has been getting aside, if Isaiah keeps turning over the roster every second day, Brown won't get time to teach them anything before they go and they'll form no chemistry. Trade away, Isaiah, I think it's probably in our best interests in the short-term.
> 
> Random thought: I think there really should be some kind of a 'hard' salary cap (can't be exceeded no matter what) somewhere around 130-150% of our current 'soft' salary cap. It's crazy how Isaiah turns their ending contracts into many more years of overpaying to get talent/picks (ala, the Rose deal).


It's a good idea. Or if you want to go Cuban on us, just add a tier of luxury tax. Say, when you start approaching double the salary cap, the next dollar you spend above 180% of the cap gets tripled.

I think I like the luxury tax as an aversion to overspending, simply because it invites some owners to try and test the waters. And with a hard cap, we'd be in trouble with our Bird contracts, right? If we extend Hinrich, Gordon, Deng and Noch, we're looking at $35 million a year between the four of them. What about the rest of our players? 

A hard cap would basically become a matter of underpaying players compared to what they've been getting. But it's a good idea, still.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*

Mchale wont trade KG for just Frye and Hardaway.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Anybody else Afraid That The Knicks Might...*



truebluefan said:


> I think Francis=Crawford, they almost even themselves out. The idea that they trade Crawford, Ariza and Taylor for Francis? This is a nice trade for Orlando. In essence they keep Francis so to speak and add a nice SF and a backup pf free!
> 
> As for NY...Some nights one of the guns will get hot and carry the knicks. Other nights they will take turns jacking up shots. Trying to get their share of attempts.
> 
> If I were LB, I would become ill all of a sudden and take a leave.
> 
> As for NY getting Miles, Ratliff for Hardaway...I dont see Portland giving them away.


That's the way I see it too. Francis' game has just plain fallen apart. His head seems like a bigger risk than, say, KMart's knee IMO.


----------



## step

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



> The point I was making was that the threat of KG not wanting to go to a team is probably enough to scare away most suitors.


It would and wouldn't, due to the fact he's on the books for like 3 years.


----------



## Hustle

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



truebluefan said:


> Mchale wont trade KG for just Frye and Hardaway.


I agree, but he really needs to consider trading KG by this summer. Same with Pierce and Iverson. I'm not saying this because of my hopes one of them ends up a Bull, but because it really time for those GM's to admit these great players have zero chance at a title before their careers are over. Right now they all look like they have reached their ceiling, with no where to go but down.


----------



## giantkiller7

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*

Ultimate props to KG for never once complaining about being on the T'wolves. I feel like he was hurting himself by not even considering being traded before this... he's too committed for his own good. Which is something you look for in an athlete, but he's hurting himself by being so dedicated. Props to him for being that way though.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



giantkiller7 said:


> Ultimate props to KG for never once complaining about being on the T'wolves. I feel like he was hurting himself by not even considering being traded before this... he's too committed for his own good. Which is something you look for in an athlete, but he's hurting himself by being so dedicated. Props to him for being that way though.


Maybe he should have complained, though. I think the anger boiled and simmered and seethed until he ended up doing stupid things like sucker-punching teammates and bullying them in general.

I've never really bought into the mythology of Kevin Garnett -- that he tries so hard it hurts, that he can't get along with his teammates because they aren't as invested in it as he is, that he'd have multiple rings if he'd ever had talent to play alongside, etc.

It all reminds me a lot of Patrick Ewing. Both guys will be first-ballot Hall of Famers. Both guys weren't clutch players and both guys were lousy leaders. What gets lost in all the cries of "but I never had anyone good to play with!" is that both guys' egos probably couldn't have handled having anyone good to play with.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



Mikedc said:


> It doesn't matter if we can or not. That's the other thing about trading for a superstar... they're often calling their own shots about where they're going to go. If this is true, KG is calling the Knicks (somewhat like Shaq limited the number of places he'd go) and there ain't a hell of a lot we can do about it.


Maybe, but if it gets to the point where KG really wants to leave, we can offer a great package and see if the TWolves brass can sway KG. But you're right, if they want to take care of him and he wants New York, he may get his wish.

Then again, his wish may destroy the TWolves franchise if they don't have enough cap friendly assets to pass back. I'm guessing Paxson would not necessarily accomidate such a request if he were in the same situation.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Maybe, but if it gets to the point where KG really wants to leave, we can offer a great package and see if the TWolves brass can sway KG. But you're right, if they want to take care of him and he wants New York, he may get his wish.
> 
> Then again, his wish may destroy the TWolves franchise if they don't have enough cap friendly assets to pass back. I'm guessing Paxson would not necessarily accomidate such a request if he were in the same situation.


I think DC is quite right. I also think that Pax wouldn't want any part of a ~$20M salary.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



DaBullz said:


> I think DC is quite right. I also think that Pax wouldn't want any part of a ~$20M salary.


Didn't Paxson make some comment which several of us thought bordered on tampering last summer about how much he would love to have Garnett? Coming from a GM, that kind of comment comes with a knowledge of the player's salary.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Didn't Paxson make some comment which several of us thought bordered on tampering last summer about how much he would love to have Garnett? Coming from a GM, that kind of comment comes with a knowledge of the player's salary.


I don't remember that.

There was PJax talking about how he'd like to have Bosh. Maybe you're confused?


----------



## narek

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Didn't Paxson make some comment which several of us thought bordered on tampering last summer about how much he would love to have Garnett? Coming from a GM, that kind of comment comes with a knowledge of the player's salary.


He made a remark on the Mike North show that he dreams about getting a player like Kevin Garnett. And somewhere on this site there's a discussion on it.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



DaBullz said:


> I don't remember that.
> 
> There was PJax talking about how he'd like to have Bosh. Maybe you're confused?


Nope. Paxson said something about Garnett too, before the Jackson Bosh comment. It might have been in an interview, not a article.

I will never be able to find a link anyhow for something like this. But I will ask any other bbb.netters if they remember the comments that I am speaking of.

edit: narek already on it! Thanks.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Didn't Paxson make some comment which several of us thought bordered on tampering last summer about how much he would love to have Garnett? Coming from a GM, that kind of comment comes with a knowledge of the player's salary.



yes, he did. he was asked on one of the radio shows about KG, and he did say "he thinks about KG" a lot, but hedged and didn't go any further with it. whether that's actually "tampering" is debatable. he was asked a question and he answered it.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



mizenkay said:


> yes, he did. he was asked on one of the radio shows about KG, and he did say "he thinks about KG" a lot, but hedged and didn't go any further with it. whether that's actually "tampering" is debatable. he was asked a question and he answered it.


Doesn't come close to tampering, if it were true.

It'd be tampering if KG was about to become a FA and Pax' comments were able to be construed as a message to KG that if he wouldn't re-sign with Minny that the Bulls would go after him. There'd have to be a component of screwing up the relationship between Minny and KG...

Any GM or coach thinks about players on the other teams "a lot" in all kinds of contexts.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT : Garnett 2 The Big Apple??*



DaBullz said:


> Doesn't come close to tampering, if it were true.
> 
> It'd be tampering if KG was about to become a FA and Pax' comments were able to be construed as a message to KG that if he wouldn't re-sign with Minny that the Bulls would go after him. There'd have to be a component of screwing up the relationship between Minny and KG...
> 
> Any GM or coach thinks about players on the other teams "a lot" in all kinds of contexts.


Right, I didn't think it was tampering either. It was a bit over the line of what I'm sure the NBA would want a GM to talk about, but certainly not punishable. 

I brought it up only to say that we have some sort of proof that Paxson is a great admirer of Garnett.


----------



## narek

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

the only deal that seems to be happening is this one:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/sports/articles/0222colangelo0222.html



> Suns President and General Manager Bryan Colangelo appears to be close to becoming the Toronto Raptors' next general manager after meeting with Raptors officials Tuesday in Toronto.
> 
> Three league sources said Colangelo appears ready to accept the position in Toronto as soon as the "final details," as one Eastern Conference source put it, are worked out. That would include salary talks that may more than triple his salary, said to be among the bottom third of NBA general managers at an estimated $1 million.
> 
> For one source to call it "done" and another to say he "can't see him not doing it" is a startling turn after Suns Managing Partner Robert Sarver just granted Toronto's request to woo Colangelo earlier this month.


The whole salary thing does make me wonder yet again how much Pax is getting from Jerry.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



narek said:


> the only deal that seems to be happening is this one:
> 
> http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/sports/articles/0222colangelo0222.html
> 
> 
> 
> The whole salary thing does make me wonder yet again how much Pax is getting from Jerry.


Even though our chances were slim before this happened, I'd say Bosh is pretty much officially out of reach now. 

Good hire by the Raptors.


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

Apparently the knciks get Francis accoridng to radio 

Ariza and penny 

for Franchise 

Oh Isiah !! Larry is gonna get you both out of there by next years time 


Also rumblings are jamal going to the nuggets for Watson oh boy kiki with highway robbery 

also a possible expanded deal of 

Kmart and Watson for Crawford,Mo taylor, Butler and a pick 

this is crazy and the knicks still dont make the playoffs


----------



## narek

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

And according to ESPN, Francis to New York is a go for Hardaway and Ariza:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2339941


Highest paid backcourt in the NBA.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

so i guess that rumored hardaway + frye deal for KG is dead? LOL!

omg. there are not enough balls to go around. 



> Record aside, Thomas said the Knicks were "still in a better place" than they were a year ago, because the roster has better talent and depth. But he conceded that the current group might have chemistry problems.
> 
> "Thus far, you'd have to say that's true," he said, adding, "Maybe it's not the right mix."
> 
> Thomas dismissed suggestions that he and Brown had conflicting agendas but did not try to dispel the notion that players had grown weary of Brown's relentless criticism.
> 
> "If I could wish for anything right now, I would just wish that the players and the coaches could really find that happy medium," Thomas said, "because when you talk about the chemistry and everything else, that may be a problem."
> 
> Thomas, standing firmly behind Brown, said it was up to the players to adapt.
> 
> *"If the players can't get along with the coach, then the players will have to go," Thomas said. "We're not getting rid of the coach. We're riding with the coach."*


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/sports/basketball/22knicks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


----------



## lgtwins

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



narek said:


> And according to ESPN, Francis to New York is a go for Hardaway and Ariza:
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2339941
> 
> 
> Highest paid backcourt in the NBA.


If this deal is done deal, either marbury or JC is on the move most definitely. More likely JC. So mcuh for the love between IT and JC.


----------



## T.Shock

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



mizenkay said:


> so i guess that rumored hardaway + frye deal for KG is dead? LOL!
> 
> omg. there are not enough balls to go around.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/sports/basketball/22knicks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


Ladies and gentlemen, the starting backcourt for your New York Knicks, the reserve point guards for the 22001 Western Conference All-Stars. Good lord.


----------



## theanimal23

*Official - Francis for Penny, Ariza*

ESPN Article

The article points out, how the Magic become have the most salary cap room for the strong FA class of 2007

Edit: I do not know how to put the Html tags to quote the article, so could someone teach me, and do that for me? Thanks.


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



mizenkay said:


> so i guess that rumored hardaway + frye deal for KG is dead? LOL!
> 
> omg. there are not enough balls to go around.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/sports/basketball/22knicks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


apparently Larry brown was pushing for Francis :eek8: hes apparently a Brown type guy. :biggrin:


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

So I guess the Magic passed on the great Jamal Crawford, huh?


----------



## SecretAgentGuy

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

Rumor is that Crawford is part of a bigger deal to bring KMart to town. Weird stuff.

Poor Magic. All that they got out of TMac was Ariza. Was there even a draft pick involved?


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



Frankensteiner said:


> So I guess the Magic passed on the great Jamal Crawford, huh?


Or Isiah pulled him out to send him to Denver 

the magic also now have Arroyo,Stevenson,Nelson,Dooling,Diener in the backcourt


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: Official - Francis for Penny, Ariza*



theanimal23 said:


> ESPN Article
> 
> The article points out, how the Magic become have the most salary cap room for the strong FA class of 2007
> 
> Edit: I do not know how to put the Html tags to quote the article, so could someone teach me, and do that for me? Thanks.




here is the article (again). i merged your thread into this one.



> Steve Francis is headed to New York under a deal agreed to Wednesday by the Knicks and the Orlando Magic.
> 
> The teams agreed to a trade of Francis for Penny Hardaway and Trevor Ariza, two league sources with knowledge of the deal told ESPN.com.
> 
> The trade was expected to be announced later Wednesday afternoon after being called in to the league office.
> 
> *In New York, Francis will be paired with Stephon Marbury as the highest-paid backcourt duo in the NBA.*
> 
> The Knicks were still talking with several other clubs as team president Isiah Thomas worked at remaking a roster that has stumbled to the league's second-worst record, 15-37.
> 
> For the Magic, the trade will provide salary cap relief to a franchise that can now go further beneath the cap than any of the league's 30 teams in the summer of 2007 when a bumper crop of free agents will be on the market, giving Orlando several options in figuring out how to rebuild around 20-year-old power forward Dwight Howard.



deal was just reported on espn news also.

as far as jamal goes, i was reading that IT is still trying to swing a deal that would send crawford to denver for kmart + watson. but i can't remember where i saw it.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Official - Francis for Penny, Ariza*



theanimal23 said:


> ESPN Article
> 
> The article points out, how the Magic become have the most salary cap room for the strong FA class of 2007
> 
> Edit: I do not know how to put the Html tags to quote the article, so could someone teach me, and do that for me? Thanks.


I would trade our roster/cap situation for the Magic's in a heartbeat.

Dwight Howard + gazillions under the cap + a proven track record in luring elite FAs?

Nice.


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



TRUTHHURTS said:


> Apparently the knciks get Francis accoridng to radio
> 
> Ariza and penny
> 
> for Franchise
> 
> Oh Isiah !! Larry is gonna get you both out of there by next years time
> 
> 
> Also rumblings are jamal going to the nuggets for Watson oh boy kiki with highway robbery
> 
> also a possible expanded deal of
> 
> Kmart and Watson for Crawford,Mo taylor, Butler and a pick
> 
> this is crazy and the knicks still dont make the playoffs


Ariza and Penny for Francis? Actually not a bad deal for the Knicks - player personalities aside. I'm surprised Orlando didn't hold out for more. Zeke dealt his last real barganing chip in Penny. I wonder how that set's orlando up. Especially if Hill decides to hang 'em up after this season. Would they then be under the cap? It may work for the Knicks but they better hope on outscoring teams because they sure as hell won't be stopping anybody.

The Denver deal - might work for both clubs. It's no secret the Nuggents have been looking for a decent 2-guard and the Knicks looking for another point guard. That expanded deal looks great for the Nuggets and could only work for the Knicks if K-Mart stays completely healthy (a premise I doubt happens). Butler is decent and maybe Denver simply gets their pick back the roundabout way! K-Mart has a monster deal and if he isn't playing he's hurting whatever team he's on.


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: Official - Francis for Penny, Ariza*



ScottMay said:


> I would trade our roster/cap situation for the Magic's in a heartbeat.
> 
> Dwight Howard + gazillions under the cap + a proven track record in luring elite FAs?
> 
> Nice.


Yeah. Possibly another summer like the year of 2000 (a la TMac and Hill)

The only thing that limits our cap flexibility next year is that we have to sign Kirk. He would cut into the cap room. This summer, we do not owe anyone a new contract.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Official - Francis for Penny, Ariza*



theanimal23 said:


> Yeah. Possibly another summer like the year of 2000 (a la TMac and Hill)
> 
> The only thing that limits our cap flexibility next year is that we have to sign Kirk. He would cut into the cap room. This summer, we do not owe anyone a new contract.


There's a lot more hamstringing our cap space next summer than just Kirk -- we've got three incoming first-rounders and quite a bit in raises for Tyson, Ben, and Luol. 

We've all tried to figure out ways to carry over our Cap Space to 2007, but I don't think it can be done.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



fl_flash said:


> Ariza and Penny for Francis? Actually not a bad deal for the Knicks - player personalities aside. I'm surprised Orlando didn't hold out for more.


I agree -- I couldn't have a lower opinion of Francis, but the Knicks basically got him for free (Ariza is an outstanding athlete but a terrible basketball player). I think that Francis is basically finished, but I guess there's always the chance he's just been "Cartering."


----------



## SecretAgentGuy

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

Looking back at T-Mac, gosh, I can't believe he's escaped us two times now and in both cases the different parties involved would have been better off with TMac in Chicago. First he shot himself in the foot by going to Orlando rather than play with Brand and company and next Orlando trades TMac for what eventually turns out to be Ariza. 

Hindsight is always 20/20.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

so NOBODY on here is nervous that these knicks trades might jepordize our pick being higher???


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

NY is paying Francis, Marbury & Crawford more than four times as much salary (>$37M) than the Bulls are paying Duhon, Hinrich and Gordon. The Bull's are getting a bargain. I wouldn't trade any of our guards for any of theirs.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



The ROY said:


> so NOBODY on here is nervous that these knicks trades might jepordize our pick being higher???


Dude, have you seen Steve Francis PLAY?

He couldn't beat Eric Piatkowski off the dribble if you set a double-screen for him. His shot is completely screwed up. He plays no defense at all.

Throw in the Brokeback Mobley mental diva stuff, and it's a recipe for disaster. I say the Knicks barely win 20 games, even with a KMart deal.


----------



## BullSoxChicagosFinest

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

LOL, Penny is coming home, praise the Lord!

I like Ariza, but thought Crawford would be involved. I guess Isiah didn't want to break up the OldBulls


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



The ROY said:


> so NOBODY on here is nervous that these knicks trades might jepordize our pick being higher???


In the short term? Nah. Sure, Francis adds overall talent to the Knicks insomuch as they gave up two guys who aren't even playing for them. I think they'll have a hard time getting Francis on the same page as the rest of them. If they move Crawford/taylor/Butler et.al for Martin an Watson, that'll also delay whatever positive chemistry could be squeezed out of these moves. The Knicks are such a mess right now that it will probably take the rest of the season at a minimum to get them all going in the same direction.

I read a quote on RealGM's Knick board which stated that this move was an entertainment move and not a basketball one. I thought that was pretty insightful.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



ScottMay said:


> Dude, have you seen Steve Francis PLAY?
> 
> He couldn't beat Eric Piatkowski off the dribble if you set a double-screen for him. His shot is completely screwed up. He plays no defense at all.
> 
> Throw in the Brokeback Mobley mental diva stuff, and it's a recipe for disaster. I say the Knicks barely win 20 games, even with a KMart deal.


yeah, i've seen francis..

and i don't think he's a good fit there BUT that doesn't mean they can't go on a nice run for the rest the year...even bad teams have GOOD moments...


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



BullSoxChicagosFinest said:


> LOL, Penny is coming home, praise the Lord!
> 
> I like Ariza, but thought Crawford would be involved. I guess Isiah didn't want to break up the OldBulls


if i was orlando, i'd be happier with ariza over crawford..

they have NO cancers on their team..just YOUNG talent

Darko, Arroyo & Ariza were all good pick-ups


----------



## SALO

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

I'm worried about the Knicks getting Earl Watson. I think he would be a much better option at PG for them than the likes of Francis, Robinson, Crawford, etc. Watson would get them more wins. 

K-Mart could definitely help the Knicks but he's just breaking down physically. He is not worth his contract even if completely healthy.


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

I dont see Nowitzki leaving Dallas for Orlando, so its a moot point. I dont have a problem with Orlando signing Pierce or Carter for the 2007-08 season and beyond (at least 4 years). Good luck to them if they do so.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



SALO said:


> I'm worried about the Knicks getting Earl Watson. I think he would be a much better option at PG for them than the likes of Francis, Robinson, Crawford, etc. Watson would get them more wins.


I was thinking the same thing. Watson ain't perfect, but he strikes me as a gamer. Francis...eh not so much.

It is definitely _possible_ that Francis gets his act together for a while and the Knicks rattle off a few wins if he and Starbury are both playing at high levels. I just don't think it's all that likely. and I agree with ScottMay - Stevie's game just seems incredibly out of tune right now in almost all facets.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spknix0223,0,1027030.story?coll=ny-knicks-print




> In a stunning move sure to be the talk of the NBA, the Knicks completed a trade for Orlando point guard Steve Francis this afternoon. A formal announcement is expected tonight at Madison Square Garden before the Knicks' scheduled game with Miami.
> 
> *The trade sets up a marriage of inconvenience between Francis and Knicks point guard Stephon Marbury. In return for Francis, the Magic receives the expiring $15.75 million contract of Penny Hardaway plus second-year swing man Trevor Ariza.
> 
> Francis' arrival at the Garden also likely signals the end of Jamal Crawford's Knicks career. Francis is likely to assume Crawford's shooting guard position, and Crawford could be dealt to Denver for backup point guard Earl Watson by Thursday's 3 p.m. NBA trade deadline.*
> 
> Knicks president Isiah Thomas has pulled off plenty of trades in his two years running the team, but none more shocking than this one. In most NBA circles, Francis and Marbury are perceived as the same player. Both have been shoot-first point guards who need the ball to drive to the basket or create their own shot. Even their birthdays are close. Francis turned 29 Tuesday, the day after Marbury turned 29.
> 
> *Neither Francis nor Marbury is regarded as a very good defender, which makes their backcourt partnership on a team coached by Larry Brown so puzzling. "It will be fun to watch, but it seems like it wouldn't work," one Eastern Conference official said yesterday afternoon.*
















breakin' up is hard to do *sniffle* awwww!




:biggrin:


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

a Jamal/Watson swap makes a lot of sense for both teams. Earl makes the Knicks a better team IMO, and Jamal fills the Nugs' need for a SG with a little height and range.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

New York won this trade on talent, and that's the only thing that counts. 

Good trade, Zeke.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



El Chapu said:


> I dont see Nowitzki leaving Dallas for Orlando, so its a moot point. I dont have a problem with Orlando signing Pierce or Carter for the 2007-08 season and beyond (at least 4 years). Good luck to them if they do so.


The draft class of 2003 enters restricted free agency the summer after next. I'm sure a talented player or two will shake loose.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Official - Francis for Penny, Ariza*



ScottMay said:


> I would trade our roster/cap situation for the Magic's in a heartbeat.
> 
> Dwight Howard + gazillions under the cap + a proven track record in luring elite FAs?
> 
> Nice.


I think I'd trade any two of our guys and a pick for Howard.

Has any team ever turned so much into as little as the The Magic? Shaq and Penny?
Grant Hill. TMac for Francis, and back to Penny. What a series of complete ****ups.


If the Knicks turn around and basically get Watson and KMart for Jamal... well, I'll find that rather ironic.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



ScottMay said:


> The draft class of 2003 enters restricted free agency the summer after next. I'm sure a talented player or two will shake loose.


Names, names, names. I want some names.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: Official - Francis for Penny, Ariza*



Mikedc said:


> I think I'd trade any two of our guys and a pick for Howard.
> 
> Has any team ever turned so much into as little as the The Magic? Shaq and Penny?
> Grant Hill. TMac for Francis, and back to Penny. What a series of complete ****ups.


So true. And yet, Dwight Howard might be in my top 3 as far as players I'd like to build a team around from scratch. And at the least, they've cleared away the long-term trash and found some young, cheap talent to evaluate. To borrow a phrase from Brent Barry, they've turned a lot of chicken salad into chicken dung, but at least they're smart enough to throw it away now.


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

The real question is, whom will Isiah trade for next year using Jalen's expiring contract? Possibly Foyle?


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



Frankensteiner said:


> New York won this trade on talent, and that's the only thing that counts.
> 
> Good trade, Zeke.


Good trade if you have all the money in the world. The contracts keep piling up. 

The question is whether New Yorkers will continue to fork over their money and time to watch Marbury, Q, Rose, Francis and Robinson (and maybe Crawford) all try to dribble the ball at the same time. Never have so many ball hogs been gathered together in one place.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



Frankensteiner said:


> Names, names, names. I want some names.


LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Chris Kaman, Kirk Hinrich, TJ Ford, Mickael Pietrus, David West, Boris Diaw, Josh Howard.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Official - Francis for Penny, Ariza*



Mikedc said:


> I think I'd trade any two of our guys and a pick for Howard.


I doubt they'd trade him for anything short of Wade or James....

Howard & Amare are the NEXT dominant bigmen in the NBA for the next 10 years or so...


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



McBulls said:


> Good trade if you have all the money in the world. The contracts keep piling up.
> 
> The question is whether New Yorkers will continue to fork over their money and time to watch Marbury, Q, Rose, Francis and Robinson (and maybe Crawford) all try to dribble the ball at the same time. Never have so many ball hogs been gathered together in one place.


Nah. I was just being sarcastic with my statement.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



ScottMay said:


> LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Chris Kaman, Kirk Hinrich, TJ Ford, Mickael Pietrus, David West, Boris Diaw, Josh Howard.


How many of those players will they have a realistic chance at signing? Please, enlighten me.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



Frankensteiner said:


> How many of those players will they have a realistic chance at signing? Please, enlighten me.


I haven't the slightest idea. But I'd prefer a 5% chance of overpaying any two players on that list than an 80% shot at overpaying Al Harrington and Nazr Mohammed.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



ScottMay said:


> I haven't the slightest idea. But I'd prefer a 5% chance of overpaying any two players on that list than an 80% shot at overpaying Al Harrington and Nazr Mohammed.


Yup. Mickael Pietrus and TJ Ford are All-NBA talent.

The Bulls have a 5% chance of overpaying for Ben Wallace, too.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



Frankensteiner said:


> The Bulls have a 5% chance of overpaying for Ben Wallace, too.


The Bulls should offer Wallace the max just so Detroit will have to match it. It only costs a week during the free agent derby.


----------



## truth

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



ScottMay said:


> Dude, have you seen Steve Francis PLAY?
> 
> *He couldn't beat Eric Piatkowski off the dribble if you set a double-screen for him*. His shot is completely screwed up. He plays no defense at all.
> 
> Throw in the Brokeback Mobley mental diva stuff, and it's a recipe for disaster. I say the Knicks barely win 20 games, even with a KMart deal.


Francis may be a complete headcase,but its clear you have NEVER seen him play


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

howard beck in the NY Times has some good quotes:






> The Knicks, mired in one of the worst seasons in franchise history, shook up the roster again today, acquiring former All-Star Steve Francis from Orlando in a splashy and potentially risky trade, the teams announced today.
> 
> Francis, a 29-year-old guard, has career averages of 19.4 points, 6.4 assists and 6 rebounds. He made the Western Conference All-Star team three times with Houston before the Rockets traded him to the Magic two summers ago.
> 
> *"Acquiring a player of Steve's level and talent is very exciting for this team," Larry Brown, the Knicks head coach, said in a statement posted this afternoon on the team's Web site. "In him, we have added a veteran that could help us in many areas, and assist with our young players' development."* The Knicks, who had earlier dangled guard Jamal Crawford in negotiations, agreed this afternoon to instead acquire Francis for a minimal package: the expiring contract of the injured Penny Hardaway and the 20-year-old swingman Trevor Ariza.
> 
> *"This is a trade that we all feel makes us a better basketball team for both now and in the future," the Knicks president of basketball operations, Isiah Thomas, said in a statement.*
> 
> Just 24 hours ago, the teams had a larger deal on the table. Crawford, Ariza and Maurice Taylor would have been sent to the Magic in exchange for Francis and Pat Garrity. But the proposal was changed this morning, at the request of the Orlando general manager, Otis Smith, according to a person involved in the discussions.
> 
> *The Magic wants to pare payroll to rebuild around Dwight Howard and apparently did not want to take on the hefty contract of Crawford, or the final year and a half of Taylor's deal, which will pay him $9.7 million next season.*
> 
> So the Knicks obtained Francis without even denting their rotation. Ariza, a second-round pick in 2004, has shown little progress and played sparingly this season. The perpetually injured Hardaway has been working out on his own in Houston since Jan. 1.
> 
> *Magic head coach Brian Hill said in a statement posted on the team's Web site, "The moves we have made during the last few days are geared to grow and improve our team."*




steve francis will assist in the development of the younger players? that's just so rich.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



truth said:


> Francis may be a complete headcase,but its clear you have NEVER seen him play


Incorrect. I've seen him play quite a bit, especially in past years.

In fact, it is because I've seen him play quite a bit in the past that makes his current predicament so shocking. His lateral quickness is gone and he struggles mightily to beat below-average defenders off the dribble.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

Wow, did you see video of that? Did LB actually say it with a straight face?

I guess Stevie can show the young'uns how to demand a trade by refusing to sign with the team that drafted you, or how to cry like a jilted lover when your best friend gets traded, or how to whine about every non-call you get (just in case Jalen isn't getting through).

Oh well, I guess Stevie and Jamal can exchange pointers on playing defense?


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



bullsville said:


> Wow, did you see video of that? Did LB actually say it with a straight face?
> 
> I guess Stevie can show the young'uns how to demand a trade by refusing to sign with the team that drafted you, or how to cry like a jilted lover when your best friend gets traded, or how to whine about every non-call you get (just in case Jalen isn't getting through).
> 
> Oh well, I guess Stevie and Jamal can exchange pointers on playing defense?


Nah. That's why it had to be released in a statement. I can just picture Brown at a press conference struggling to even get the words out, let alone actually sound like he's convinced it's a good move.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

I agree with scottMay and his take on Francis. 

I also agree with bullsville and I am just as shocked to see LB say what he did. 

Will be interesting to see what happens next.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

So, are the Knicks, for this season, better, worse or the same after making this Francis deal?


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



kukoc4ever said:


> So, are the Knicks, for this season, better, worse or the same after making this Francis deal?


Hard to really say. From a pure talent standpoint, they're better. Francis, for all his faults/shortcommings was far and away the best player in the deal. From a team/chemistry standpoint, I think the Knicks just made things worse. Kinda like throwing alcohol on a burning building - I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the buildng, but in a morbid kind of way it sure is fun to watch!

Overall, I think it makes them a little better but not enough to really make much of a difference.


----------



## SALO

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



mizenkay said:


> howard beck in the NY Times has some good quotes:


So Orlando chose cap space over Crawford. I thought JC had a reasonable deal considering all his talent and upside.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



kukoc4ever said:


> So, are the Knicks, for this season, better, worse or the same after making this Francis deal?


I say better. Francis taking Crawford's minutes is an improvement.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

Someone correct me if I am wrong but hasnt Rose, Francis and even marbury publically complained during their careers when things were not going well for each one individually? If so it will be interesting to see what is going to happen. If they keep Crawford....wow.....And even LB has complained publically during his career. The media will have a lot to write about. Wonder when Robinson will speak up? Maybe even Q? 

Right now, without trading Crawford, they are better. But in Francis I see another Crawford. So add another Crawford to the mix of players and the team slightly improves. How many wins will that be? Will this team play .500 ball all the way out? Right now, I have my doubts.


----------



## giantkiller7

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

So the Knicks now have Crawford, Franchise, Marbury, Rose, and Nate Robinson, possibly the single largest collection of shoot-first, ball-hogging players that could play point ever.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



truebluefan said:


> Right now, without trading Crawford, they are better. But in Francis I see another Crawford. So add another Crawford to the mix of players and the team slightly improves. How many wins will that be? Will this team play .500 ball all the way out? Right now, I have my doubts.


You think they're better with Crawford than with Watson? Watson plays some defense and is relatively judicious in his shot selection. He's not a pure point either, but he has more of a team-oriented skill set than anyone on the Knicks' roster right now. I think NY gets better if they make a Jamal/Watson trade, even if it does make them even shorter in the backcourt.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

The Knicks can't really get any worse, they've lost 17 of 19 games so how can you possibly get any worse?

Of course, the Knicks were a bottom-5 team when they brought in Jalen, and he managed to make them worse, so maybe I am speaking too soon?

Even if they miraculously play .500 ball the rest of the season, that only gets them to 30 wins. Still a bottom 5 team, easily.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

I think the Knicks are slightly better, even though its just a comic mess.

Let's say they do trade Crawford for Watson.... how many minutes could Watson play? 15-20? Brown needs a pure point, that's for sure.

Crawford would seemingly fit in well in Denver at the 2.

Let's hope the Knicks are the same or worse, since every Knicks win is trouble for the Bulls.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



SALO said:


> So Orlando chose cap space over Crawford. I thought JC had a reasonable deal considering all his talent and upside.


Moreover, how could the Magic give up Francis for NOTHING? 

By my count, that's 4 straight trades (Crawford, Curry, Rose, Francis) in a row that the Knicks have won on talent. Why aren't they better?

:boohoo:


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



ViciousFlogging said:


> You think they're better with Crawford than with Watson? Watson plays some defense and is relatively judicious in his shot selection. He's not a pure point either, but he has more of a team-oriented skill set than anyone on the Knicks' roster right now. I think NY gets better if they make a Jamal/Watson trade, even if it does make them even shorter in the backcourt.


I didnt address that rumor because the trade has not been announced yet. But yeah. If Watson comes to NY and Crawford leaves, then Watson will help. But then, they still have only 1 basketball. Only one player can shoot at one time.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



kukoc4ever said:


> I think the Knicks are slightly better, even though its just a comic mess.
> 
> Let's say they do trade Crawford for Watson.... how many minutes could Watson play? 15-20? Brown needs a pure point, that's for sure.
> 
> Crawford would seemingly fit in well in Denver at the 2.
> 
> Let's hope the Knicks are the same or worse, since every Knicks win is trouble for the Bulls.


Yes, I've been wondering why Richardson or Crawford hasn't yet been traded for Watson. That trade would make a little less sense now that Francis is on board -- another small guard -- but it could still make some sense in that the Knicks still don't have anyone resembling a pure point guard, in particular someone who can distribute, be choosy about when to shoot, and play good defense. Watson could provide that. Meanwhile, the Nuggets are in desperate need of a 2 guard, and amazingly they have been for all three of Melo's years with the team.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



Frankensteiner said:


> Moreover, how could the Magic give up Francis for NOTHING?
> 
> By my count, that's 4 straight trades (Crawford, Curry, Rose, Francis) in a row that the Knicks have won on talent. Why aren't they better?
> 
> :boohoo:


The truly comical thing is that the Knicks' record has gotten progressively *worse* after each of these trades.

I guess it just goes to show once again that selfish, no-defense All-Star talent that ranks a '-2' on the Right Way Scale is doomed to failure.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



Frankensteiner said:


> By my count, that's 4 straight trades (Crawford, Curry, Rose, Francis) in a row that the Knicks have won on talent. Why aren't they better?


Why are the Bulls still losers now that all the cancer is removed?


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



kukoc4ever said:


> Why are the Bulls still losers now that all the cancer is removed?


We're still recovering from the surgery. 
Check in next fall when rehabilitation finally begins in earnest.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



kukoc4ever said:


> Why are the Bulls still losers now that all the cancer is removed?


I would say because we have only cashed in about 5% of the assets we got from the trades.

We have Sweets, Harrington and Pike as players that we received in the trades.

We still have ~$16 million in cap space, a top-5 pick, a swap option, and 2 second-round picks to go- and yet with Sweets, Harrington and Pike instead of JC, EC and Jalen, the Bulls are currently a BETTER team than they were WITH those 3 on the roster.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

insider hoops reported :

· The Sonics and the Chicago Bulls have had conversations about Chris Duhon for Reggie Evans. The Bulls are all over the map at this time and there is no deal that is imminent. The Sonics would probably rather do this deal then the Denver deal if Chicago buys in. According, to some sources the Bulls are unwilling to move Duhon.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

I don't see why L.A. & Utah wouldn't do a Odom for Boozer swap. It works according to the checker also.


----------



## BG7

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

Not to mention if I remember correctly the Knicks also got Marbury for dicksquat. If they get a better coach, that is willing to work than yell, they can go somewhere, not this year though, it is a chemistry clash, none of the players are too used to playing with each other. Maybe next year, but I want that top 3 pick dammit.

Reggie Evans is garbage, only trade Duhon in that Gooden trade.


----------



## NYKBaller

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

we'll go on a run just to make sure ya'll get like the 8th pick


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



The ROY said:


> insider hoops reported :
> 
> · The Sonics and the Chicago Bulls have had conversations about Chris Duhon for Reggie Evans. The Bulls are all over the map at this time and there is no deal that is imminent. The Sonics would probably rather do this deal then the Denver deal if Chicago buys in. According, to some sources the Bulls are unwilling to move Duhon.


 this is what i was kinda harpin' on in the thread easymoney started.

it's not so much about reggie evans for me, literally, but just the *concept that the bulls would be unwilling to move duhon* when pax went ON CAMERA last week and said nobody was untouchable!!

conceptually this really bugs the **** out of me.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



McBulls said:


> We're still recovering from the surgery.
> Check in next fall when rehabilitation finally begins in earnest.





bullsville said:


> I would say because we have only cashed in about 5% of the assets we got from the trades.
> 
> We have Sweets, Harrington and Pike as players that we received in the trades.
> 
> We still have ~$16 million in cap space, a top-5 pick, a swap option, and 2 second-round picks to go- and yet with Sweets, Harrington and Pike instead of JC, EC and Jalen, the Bulls are currently a BETTER team than they were WITH those 3 on the roster.


Both good points that have been continuously ignored.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

Concerning the Knicks:

The Francis deal doesn't concern me too too much, since he doesn't really bring anything that they don't already have, although I imagine it will improve them a bit, but not enough to make that big of a difference, IMO. 

However, it would've been nice if the Magic could've squeezed a _little_ bit more out of NY. Come on Orlando!! You couldn't even get David Lee or their draft picks?!?! Hah, I guess that's what you get when you have one incompetent front office trying to do something with another one. 

And I hope they don't do the Watson deal. He's not a savior or anything, but I think he'd bring more balance to the team. Crawford is completely redundant w/ Francis around.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



mizenkay said:


> this is what i was kinda harpin' on in the thread easymoney started.
> 
> it's not so much about reggie evans for me, literally, but just the *concept that the bulls would be unwilling to move duhon* when pax went ON CAMERA last week and said nobody was untouchable!!
> 
> conceptually this really bugs the **** out of me.


I'm getting the impression that they're unwilling to move Duhon FOR EVANS, although the article doesn't make that clear.

But yeah, if Duhon is an untouchable, someone needs their head examined.


----------



## calabreseboy

*Francis for Ariza, Hardaway*

EDIT: Had no idea trade threads were merged. No wonder there were no other threads on the topic. Sorry guys.

Bad deal imo anyway lol


----------



## YearofDaBulls

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



Frankensteiner said:


> Moreover, how could the Magic give up Francis for NOTHING?
> 
> By my count, that's 4 straight trades (Crawford, Curry, Rose, Francis) in a row that the Knicks have won on talent. Why aren't they better?
> 
> :boohoo:


Because NONE of these players play defense.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

I like Evans, but I'm not sure I'd trade Duhon for him straight up. (and they can't, since that wouldn't be CBA compliant). Then again, I'm not sure I wouldn't.

Evans gives us another $3M in cap space (though we might just end up using it to resign him) and a big with the right skillset (he's a strong rebounder and defender). It's really the same skillset as AD, except without the "polish" AD has on the offensive end (meaning yeah, AD's offensive game is ugly, but Evans' is super ugly). Still, he's 25, a decent defender, a chiseled body, a very good rebounder. In short, he's everything AD was when he was 25. Of course that doesn't mean that Evans will end up being as good as AD, but those are nice skills to bring to the table and they're skills we have a shortage of.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



YearofDaBulls said:


> Because NONE of these players play defense.


That's pretty much it. Its a horribly balanced team.

You could have a team of all defensive specialists that would pretty much suck as well, IMO. Let's say a team of all Bowen, Chandler, Wallace types. 

Balance is the key. The Bulls seemed to have it last year. Oh well. Back to all the chest-thumping about being a losing team that's better than the Knicks.


EDIT: I'd rather have Curry, Crawford, Marhsall and Rose on the Bulls than Sweetney, Othella and Pike and whoever. I think we'd be a better team, IMO. We'd still have all our core guys, unless the cancers sticking around would have actually prevented us from being so horrible in Paxson Year 1.


----------



## YearofDaBulls

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



kukoc4ever said:


> That's pretty much it. Its a horribly balanced team.
> 
> You could have a team of all defensive specialists that they would pretty much suck as well, IMO. Let's say a team of all Bowen, Chandler, Wallace types.
> 
> Balance is the key. The Bulls seemed to have it last year. Oh well. Back to all the chest-thumping about being a losing team that's better than the Knicks.


I'm not worried about it as much as I was a couple of years ago. I think we have good pieces to the puzzle in place. We are in a much better situation next year if Pax makes the right moves. He has the picks, he has the money..Let's see if he can execute.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*

scottie on the knicks trade and other things. good stuff.



> I am pretty much befuddled with what New York has done.
> 
> I am not a great fan of Steve Francis. He rubbed me the wrong way when he came into the league and demanded that Vancouver trade him. He just isn't the type of player that can make your team better or that can get you where you are trying to get to. He is very talented, but his skills are built around his individual success and not around the success of a team.
> 
> Any time you take on such a brilliant nickname as "Franchise," that name has to have some validity behind it and I don't think he has shown that he is a franchise player. It is not going to work for him even moving to New York.
> 
> This is another in a long list of desperate moves for the Knicks, going back to the Eddy Curry deal. Eddy Curry's success coming to New York has been about as good as my success coming back to Chicago when my career was pretty much done. He hasn't made any impact on that team, which, I am sure for John Paxson, is the best thing to happen. He just let his No. 1 draft pick go and got another one back. It was a good wash for them, because they didn't lose that draft pick. They sort of gambled on it, played with it, let it go, but then they got it back.
> 
> Isiah has brought in players on top of players. He isn't giving one player an opportunity to succeed. You have Stephon Marbury there. Then you bring in Jamal Crawford. Now Steve Francis.
> 
> What are you going to do with these guys?
> 
> These are three guys that love to pound the basketball and create their own shots. Who is going to succeed at that position? To me it seems like they have just told Isiah to just go out there and continue to see if we can have the highest payroll.




http://www.nba.com/news/movement_2006.html


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*

That was a good article, miz. Here's another interesting part not really specific to the deal:



Pip said:


> It is going to be the same type of situation. A lot of it has to do with the individual players. Players in today's game are not geared for winning. They aren't geared for a team concept. They're basically trying to get into the game and they have no knowledge as to what the game is really about.


IMO this sounds like something Skiles, or maybe Paxson, but definitely Skiles would say when talking about the "right way." Thought I'd point that out since this opinion has been labeled as racist when coming from them.


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



Mikedc said:


> I like Evans, but I'm not sure I'd trade Duhon for him straight up. (and they can't, since that wouldn't be CBA compliant). Then again, I'm not sure I wouldn't.
> 
> Evans gives us another $3M in cap space (though we might just end up using it to resign him) and a big with the right skillset (he's a strong rebounder and defender). It's really the same skillset as AD, except without the "polish" AD has on the offensive end (meaning yeah, AD's offensive game is ugly, but Evans' is super ugly). Still, he's 25, a decent defender, a chiseled body, a very good rebounder. In short, he's everything AD was when he was 25. Of course that doesn't mean that Evans will end up being as good as AD, but those are nice skills to bring to the table and they're skills we have a shortage of.


The big difference between Davis and Evans is size. I don't think Evans can play big minutes at center. Also, while AD's not nearly as athletic as he used to be, he's still a much better shot blocker than Evans.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*

marty burns on the human side of the trade deadline and how it affects the players.



> With Thursday's 3 p.m. ET trade deadline fast approaching, dozens of players around the league are nervously wondering where they might be playing next.
> 
> *Steve Francis, Earl Watson and Ben Gordon are just a few who have recently admitted to being affected by hearing their names mentioned in trade rumors.*
> 
> While most players understand it's part of the job -- and that they are well compensated for the trouble -- it doesn't make it any easier. No matter how much money you make, it's no fun to have somebody tell you where to live.
> 
> "It's hard because most guys have families, maybe kids in school," says Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal. "You have a foundation in place. When you hear you might be traded, it can be a hard thing to deal with. [It] does affect our families, especially the kids.
> 
> "A lot of fans don't really think about that. They only think about the actual basketball part. Wins and losses. They don't think about how we do have families, that we do bleed. It's almost like our lives are superficial or something. Like we're not human. They don't expect us to be sad about [it] or be disappointed."
> 
> ...
> 
> *In this day of sports talk radio and Internet chat rooms, meanwhile, it is almost impossible to insulate families from the daily swirl of trade rumors. O'Neal says his wife recently came to him after seeing a picture on the Internet showing him in a Bulls jersey. He had to explain to her that it was just a rumor, that they probably wouldn't have to pack their bags again.*



:raised_ey





> Changes to the NBA's trade rules over the past decade have exacerbated the situation, leading to an increase in the number of players, especially the younger and lesser-paid ones, being discussed in deals. O'Neal believes some of his Pacers teammates were distracted during last month's long Ron Artest saga. "They were all wondering if they were going to be included to make the salaries match up," he says.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Web has spawned a 24-hours-a-day source of trade rumors. Even if players shouldn't believe 95 percent of the stuff they hear, they often can't help it -- especially the younger ones. Bulls GM John Paxson recently went out of his way to talk to Gordon after the second-year guard expressed some concern over a report that had him headed to Boston for Celtics guard Paul Pierce.




http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/marty_burns/02/22/trade.rumors/index.html


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*

The knicks might be super successful running Indy's offense. Indy runs a lot of isolation plays for its various players... It makes it easier to take advantage of whatever mismatches might be on the court at any time.

Between Francis and Marbury, they have a pretty solid PG on the floor for all 48 minutes. Between Crawford and QRich, they have height at the PG/SG and SG positions when the situation calls for it. QRich is a decent enough SF, too.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



TripleDouble said:


> The big difference between Davis and Evans is size. I don't think Evans can play big minutes at center. Also, while AD's not nearly as athletic as he used to be, he's still a much better shot blocker than Evans.


Yes... he's a 100% better shotblocker. He blocks .24 a game and Reggie blocks .12!

In short, neither is a shotblocker, so there's not a meaningful difference there. 

AD was an OK shotblocker, but he hasn't even had a block a game, on average, I think, in several years. Evans will never be a shotblocker at all, but AD was still quite useful for us without that, and Evans could be too.

As far as their size, AD is listed at 6'9 and 245, Evans is 6'8 and 245. Maybe he's shorter than that, but it looks about right to me, and again, not a really huge difference.

The more I look, the more I think Evans could help. He's certainly not a fancy or flashy player, but he seems decent to me at the skills we lack.


----------



## Machinehead

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*



mizenkay said:


> marty burns on the human side of the trade deadline and how it affects the players.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :raised_ey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/marty_burns/02/22/trade.rumors/index.html


Note to Jermaine O'Neal 

I hear ya bro 

But your being paid $15M a year 

Suck it up 

You want solidity and consistency in lifestyle ..then damn man , life's a biyatch that requires you to make your choices


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



Mikedc said:


> Yes... he's a 100% better shotblocker. He blocks .24 a game and Reggie blocks .12!
> 
> In short, neither is a shotblocker, so there's not a meaningful difference there.
> 
> AD was an OK shotblocker, but he hasn't even had a block a game, on average, I think, in several years. Evans will never be a shotblocker at all, but AD was still quite useful for us without that, and Evans could be too.
> 
> As far as their size, AD is listed at 6'9 and 245, Evans is 6'8 and 245. Maybe he's shorter than that, but it looks about right to me, and again, not a really huge difference.
> 
> The more I look, the more I think Evans could help. He's certainly not a fancy or flashy player, but he seems decent to me at the skills we lack.


You're right about AD and shotblocking -- he's been bad the past few seasons.. I guess I was remembering him from back in the day. 

Anyway, I've always though of Evans as an undersized PF whereas Davis can be an undersized C. Has Seattle played Evans at C?


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged)*



TripleDouble said:


> You're right about AD and shotblocking -- he's been bad the past few seasons.. I guess I was remembering him from back in the day.
> 
> Anyway, I've always though of Evans as an undersized PF whereas Davis can be an undersized C. Has Seattle played Evans at C?


Pretty sure he did. At least last year some of the Sonics best lineups were Daniels/Ridnour at PG, Allen, Lewis, Radmanovic, and Evans at C. 
http://82games.com/04SEA10B.HTM

The trick is he's ugly on offense. Still, he'd be the right backup to Chandler... put him out there to clean the glass when Tyson needs a blow or has the inevitable foul trouble, and we're looking good. The Sonics made it work by putting four quality scorers around him. We're not quite there, but Kirk, Ben, Lou, Songaila is probably comparable, and while they're worse offensively they're better defensively.


----------



## GB

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*

I'm somewhat intrigued by the Knicks line-up, and I think a problem that many of the pundits are making is that they are judging the aquisition of Steve Francis against a normal season.

It's no longer a normal season for the Knicks. It's a lost season.

And thusly freed to play loosely in the thirty odd games left, this is a pretty high octane roster of players who just might go out every night and try to run the score up. Rose, Steph, Francis, Curry and Frye are going to find someone to beat up on in every starting five they play against the rest of the season. And when teams adjust they'll find the next mismatch and have someone who can exploit it too.

If Larry loosens up a bit, lets them run up a few 112-115-118 point games, lets them have a tiny bit more on-court control, they might just gel together and naturally start playing the minimum of defense necessary to let them win a few. You never know.

In fact, I'd view Watson as more of threat to this scenario, because it would prompt Larry to go after more on court control, instead of less.


K4, in answer to your question about why we're still "losers" (I don't understand why you insist on phrasing in a way that will anger people) even though we've gotten rid the cancer, those "cancerous" players were not untalented. A lot of basketball talent went out the door with them. I think though, that it's letting us get better use of some of the other basketball talent we have though, and as Bullsville said, we have to see how all the pieces we acquired work out.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*

DIME MAGAZINE 

Kevin Garnett to the Lakers

Other teams interested: Knicks, Bulls

KG has had that forlorn, "Please God, get me out of here" look on his face for about two years now. All of the rumors are that if and when he gets dealt, he wants to go to New York to ball in the NBA's largest market. Can't really blame him, can you? Is there any doubt that if he was in a larger market since he came into the L we'd be talking about KG in the same breath as some of the all-time greats? Garnett would have been everywhere for the last decade. Unfortunately, after the Knicks made the move for Francis, KG to NYC is unlikely.

We have been hearing, though, that the Lakers are making a late push for Garnett. And by all accounts they'd be crazy to refuse giving up any of their young talent if they have a legit shot at KG (and if we were Kevin McHale, we'd settle for nothing less than Andrew Bynum and Lamar Odom). Can you image Garnett and Kobe on the same team? They can ...


----------



## narek

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*



The ROY said:


> DIME MAGAZINE
> 
> We have been hearing, though, that the Lakers are making a late push for Garnett. And by all accounts they'd be crazy to refuse giving up any of their young talent if they have a legit shot at KG (and if we were Kevin McHale, we'd settle for nothing less than Andrew Bynum and Lamar Odom). Can you image Garnett and Kobe on the same team? They can ...


It be a win now for the Lakers.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*

Sorry to go off-topic and have the off-topic not concern Eddy Curry like most of the threads, but I have a question for *GB*:

What the hell does the "Chicago Sky" in your sig mean?


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*

If utah really is down for that Boozer for Thomas/Sweetney/change, I say go for it. Boozer put up 14 and 8 tonight. If he is coming back to form, he'd be a steal for us.


----------



## giantkiller7

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*



bullsville said:


> Sorry to go off-topic and have the off-topic not concern Eddy Curry like most of the threads, but I have a question for *GB*:
> 
> What the hell does the "Chicago Sky" in your sig mean?


Chicago WNBA team


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*



narek said:


> It be a win now for the Lakers.


IMO, I think Kobe would make it work with KG. You can add any scrubs to that team, and they'd be decent.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*


----------



## Salvaged Ship

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*

Man, Isiah is the worst GM in sports history. He is messing that team up for years. Trading for past their prime, ball hog, no defense, whining bums that tie up the cap for years. Add to that his obsession ballers who play with no heart or baskeball IQ in Jerome James, 8 assists for the whole year Ed Curry, and playground toothpick Crawford. Trade for Jalen Rose. Now Francis, who is a big loser. This is hilarious unless you are a NY fan. No team players. How many basketballs does that team need to keep everyone happpy. They have one of the best coaches in the league and have the second worst record and highest payroll. Even Brown can't get these guys to play .500 ball. Not even close!

How can the owner of that team keep letting these trades happen? The GM's from other teams who get to dump these bums must be pinching themselves. How can Larry Brown handle this? I guess he is collecting a huge paycheck like all those bums who are playing for him. A great year to destroy the team, as we seriously benefit. 

Have you ever seen a collection of such high priced, non-winner, big whining losers in your life? I wouldn't trust Isiah selling popcorn. He can't even sniff Krause, and I hated him more than any GM who ever lived.

C'mon Isiah. you must still have one big contract out there you can bring in.


----------



## narek

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*

A little tidbit in the Sun-Times this morning:


> Bulls general manager John Paxson passed on taking the trip to the United Center for his team's game against the Milwaukee Bucks on Wednesday.
> 
> The league trade deadline is 2 p.m. today which is why Paxson was said to be at the Berto Center, the team's Deerfield headquarters, manning the telephone.
> 
> Unlike the New York Knicks, who obtained Steve Francis from Orlando on Wednesday and are rumored to be in just about every trade scenario making the rounds, there has been almost no trade chatter concerning the Bulls


http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bullnt23.html


----------



## step

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*

Well this ain't a rumour, but not a big enough trade scenario to warrant its own thread:

Pargo for Evans


----------



## giantkiller7

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*



step said:


> Well this ain't a rumour, but not a big enough trade scenario to warrant its own thread:
> 
> Pargo for Evans


idk... SEA wants a PG, but Evans is another undersized PF w/ no offensive game


----------



## step

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*



> idk... SEA wants a PG, but Evans is another undersized PF w/ no offensive game


Pargo would be a cheap attempt, they're really not losing anything at all with this trade. Since the ball will be in the hands of Allen and Lewis majority of the time, he really won't be doing much of the playmaking, all he'd be required to basically do is hit the jumper.
Evans would give us another big, considering how poorly Othella and Sweets have been playing recently, it can't hurt.


----------



## Rhyder

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread*



blowuptheraptors said:


> Wanted to see what you guys would think of this?
> 
> You guys are still going for the playoffs.
> 
> Not sure how much you like Mike James but his name is out there. We know AD is CHI-bound next year.
> 
> Does this sound reasonable?
> 
> Mike James + a released AD
> 
> For
> 
> Piatkowski
> 
> And a conditional 2006 1st rounder
> 
> Example of conditions could be as follows.
> (Conditions: IF CHI makes the playoffs and NYK pick is 4th or later, TOR receives the NYK pick. If CHI fails to make the playoffs OR the NYK pick is 1 thru 3, TOR gets the later of the two picks)


I would trade the Bulls pick (top three protected), but I wouldn't potentially trade a #4 pick for a Mike James.

That said, we already have four undersized guards. Adding another wouldn't make much sense unless we were giving one back in a multiplayer deal.


----------



## greekbullsfan

*3-way deal in works*

denver sends watson to seattle portland receives paterson and denver receives potapenko,take it or leave it


----------



## greekbullsfan

*Re: 3-way deal in works*

it is also being said that flip murray will go to an east coast team,maybe to cleveland


----------



## The ROY

*Re: 3-way deal in works*

and the bulls still.......do........nothing


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)*

Chicago paper trade columns collected (I know some are already posted and some even have threads – just putting all together in one place)

Trib: Downey

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...2downey,1,7843873.column?coll=cs-home-utility



> The worst of these by far was the Elton Brand deal of 2001 that has come back to bite the Bulls in the rump.
> 
> Brand now is not only a star for the Clippers but is among the NBA's top candidates for most valuable player this season. All the Bulls have to show for that transaction is Tyson Chandler, who barely has made as many shots this season as Ben Gordon has made three-point shots.
> 
> So anytime a fan begs the Bulls to go out and "please, make a deal," I remind them of that. Or how they once gave away Ron Artest, Brad Miller and several more years of the team's rebuilding program in one incredibly bad move.
> 
> For some reason, the Bulls let their most popular players get away from them too soon. They let Michael Jordan leave twice before his time in the NBA was up. They let Scottie Pippen get away. They let Horace Grant get away. They once traded away Artis Gilmore, traded away Reggie Theus, traded away Brand.
> 
> Somebody recently asked me what the best trade in Bulls history was.
> 
> "Flynn Robinson for Bob Love and Bob Weiss," I answered, "in 1968."
> 
> If this organization has made an indisputably successful trade for a player (not a draft pick) in the 38 years since, I have forgotten it.
> 
> So I don't want to see Ben Gordon go. And assuming he is a sincere and truthful young man, Gordon doesn't want to go.
> 
> On his blog, he wrote: "This is where I want to be for my entire career. I hope I can play here for the next 15 years until I retire."
> 
> That was my desire as well as the trade deadline neared—to be able to see Air Gordon retire in a Bulls uniform in the year 2021.
> 
> You trade him now, you'll pay for it later.


Tribune: Smith

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...mith,1,4859067.column?coll=cs-bulls-headlines



> The Bulls have less than 24 hours to acquire Kevin Garnett, Allen Iverson, Lamar Odom, Al Harrington, Theo Ratliff, Earl Watson, Quentin Richardson, Kenyon Martin, Bonzi Wells, Voshon Lenard, Drew Gooden, Damon Jones, Marko Jaric, Jamal Crawford, Nate Robinson, Reggie Evans, Nene, Darius Miles, Speedy Claxton, J.R. Smith, Carlos Boozer, Eric Williams, Tyronn Lue, Melvin Ely, Brevin Knight, Marc Jackson, Ronald Murray and Derek Fisher.
> 
> Is this a great league, or what?





> The Bulls are watching all this carefully because they hold the Knicks' No. 1 draft pick from the Eddy Curry trade. The Bulls are not expected to make a major move, although a minor change is possible with players on expiring contracts, such as Malik Allen and Eric Piatkowski.
> 
> A deal for Tim Thomas seems unlikely because the Bulls refuse to take on contracts not expiring unless it is for a great player. Garnett's name has been floated at times, and although the Bulls have the kind of pieces—young players and high draft picks—that presumably would interest a rebuilding team, the Timberwolves seem loath to make a big move now.
> 
> Based on their history, it seems unlikely the Bulls would let Thomas go in a buyout to an Eastern team they could battle for a playoff spot, such as the 76ers and Nets, who have expressed interest in him.
> 
> San Antonio is said to have some interest and Thomas could end up there, as another veteran, Glenn Robinson, did late last season.



Herald: Rozner

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/rozner.asp?id=159285



> But if Gordon isn’t dealt by 2 p.m. today, everyone’s going to smile and say it’s all good, when it seems obvious that what’s best for Skiles and Gordon is an amicable divorce.
> It’s difficult to sell the idea that the Bulls will be better off without Gordon, or that Paxson can get equal value in players or draft picks, but it’s nearly certain Gordon will be better off elsewhere.
> This neither makes Skiles a bad guy, nor Gordon a problem child, but Skiles likes grinders, and Gordon has superstar potential. They’re oil and water, and Gordon’s never going to find his ceiling as long as Skiles keeps hammering away at him.


Southtown Paul:
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/ladewski/x23-lad2.htm



> The trade deadline is hours away. Your team has a 23-29 record. Your team is the No. 9 seed in a conference that smells like armpits. Your team has a bunch of kids with growth potential, but other than the statue outside the United Center, there's no go-to guy to be found.
> If you're the general manager, what would you do? What would you do?
> If I'm Bulls boss John Paxson, I know exactly what I would do.
> I'd supercharge my cell phone and call Minnesota Timberwolves general manager Kevin McHale every 15 minutes until he finally said the magic words.
> "OK, it's a deal. Kevin Garnett is yours."
> Look, despite their record, there are several things to like about this Bulls team. The players break a sweat at both ends of the court almost every game. They share the ball. There's not a rotten apple in the group. But unless a bunch of them brings "A" games and the sun and the moon are in alignment, the Bulls struggle to win games, pure and simple.
> So keep Gonzaga star Adam Morrison. The Bulls need another kid the way, well, Shawn Kemp needs another kid. Their top priority should be a superstar talent, someone who can be counted on to put up big numbers night in and night out. Because if your team doesn't have a reasonable facsimile, it doesn't have a chance in Haiti to contend for the big prize.
> Enter Garnett, the former Farragut Academy star.


----------



## step

*Re: 3-way deal in works*

The trade doesn't make sense, and doesn't work.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: 3-way deal in works*

espn breaking news from ric bucher:

*earl watson to SONICS in a four man deal. details to come...*


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: 3-way deal in works*



mizenkay said:


> espn breaking news from ric bucher:
> 
> *earl watson to SONICS in a four man deal. details to come...*


This was speculated...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/260587_sonx23.html



> The three players rumored to be ex-Sonics by noon today did not play in Seattle's 114-109 victory over the Atlanta Hawks on Wednesday night.
> 
> Reggie Evans, Vitaly Potapenko and Flip Murray sat at the end of the bench at Philips Arena and watched as their more secure teammates snapped a seven-game road losing streak and allowed some hope to breeze into the locker room.
> 
> But the Sonics could be a dramatically different team by this time today as club officials are close to a deal that would bring former Sonic Earl Watson back to Seattle for Potapenko and Murray, according to two NBA sources. Evans could be involved in another deal.
> 
> Watson, 26, signed a five-year, $29 million deal to be the Nuggets' reserve point guard but has been displaced by sparkplug Earl Boykins. Watson has been expendable since the Nuggets have sought rebounders and a legitimate shooting guard.
> 
> Murray and Evans would have to approve any deal, but Evans has already requested a trade.


----------



## greekbullsfan

*trade rumor*

the rumor is sweetney to wizards and cash for etan tomas ,i like it


----------



## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls!

*ESPN Insider Rumors: KG to NY*

Saw this headline on the ESPN site: what in the world would the Knicks have that would entice Minny??? This move would seriously affect our plans for sure. I hope it's just Chad Ford being his usual self (I don't have a ESPN insider sub, so I don't know the details...)


----------



## step

*Re: ESPN Insider Rumors: KG to NY*

Obsolete rumour with the Francis deal.
It was supposedly Penny and Frye for Garnett.


----------



## L.O.B

*Re: ESPN Insider Rumors: KG to NY*



Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! said:


> Saw this headline on the ESPN site: what in the world would the Knicks have that would entice Minny??? This move would seriously affect our plans for sure. I hope it's just Chad Ford being his usual self (I don't have a ESPN insider sub, so I don't know the details...)


I believe Chad Ford has been having too much fun w/ ESPN's new trade checker.


----------



## step

*Re: trade rumor*

Add it to the current thread - Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)

This one's interesting. I'd rather use Sweets for Boozer though.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: trade rumor*



greekbullsfan said:


> the rumor is sweetney to wizards and cash for etan tomas ,i like it


Where did you hear this rumor?


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: ESPN Insider Rumors: KG to NY*



step said:


> Obsolete rumour with the Francis deal.
> It was supposedly Penny and Frye for Garnett.


This is a separate entry. It says that the Knicks are planning to run at Garnett this summer. There's an article in Newsday today about it.


----------



## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls!

*Re: trade rumor*



step said:


> Add it to the current thread - Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!)
> 
> This one's interesting. I'd rather use Sweets for Boozer though.


In normal (i.e., non-NBA) conversation, "I'd rather use Sweets for Boozer" has a strangely different connotation :biggrin:


----------



## Zeb

*Re: trade rumor*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Where did you hear this rumor?


It's from the Washington Times.



> One deal that has been discussed involved the Wizards sending Thomas, the Wizards' longest tenured player, to Chicago for former Georgetown power forward Michael Sweetney and cash.


http://washingtontimes.com/sports/20060222-115916-2081r.htm


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!!)*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2341845



> The Seattle SuperSonics have reached an agreement on a three-way trade that will bring guard Earl Watson back to the Sonics, who drafted him in 2001, ESPN.com's Marc Stein reports.
> 
> The deal, which is expected to be announced later Thursday, sends Seattle forward Reggie Evans and Portland swingman Ruben Patterson to the Nuggets.
> 
> Portland, in its ongoing quest for salary-cap relief, was eager to part with Patterson and acquire Denver guard Voshon Lenard (whose contract expires at season's end) and Seattle center Vitaly Potapenko (who has only one season left on his contract).
> 
> The Sonics also receive a future second-round pick from Denver in the deal, which has been sent to the league office for official approval


----------



## dsouljah9

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!!)*

If that Sweetney deal is true, I'd do it. Thomas is a solid player and would provide some help inside. Sweetney didn't play last night...


----------



## step

*Re: trade rumor*



> In normal (i.e., non-NBA) conversation, "I'd rather use Sweets for Boozer" has a strangely different connotation




*bleh* Miz is too quick.

I wonder if the Nuggets will try hard to shop K-Mart in the offseason. The upcomming offseason is going to be interesting: AI, Garnett, K-Mart.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Semi OT: Official Deadline Rumours/Trades thread (merged!!)*



dsouljah9 said:


> If that Sweetney deal is true, I'd do it. Thomas is a solid player and would provide some help inside. Sweetney didn't play last night...


agreed

how long is thomas's contract for?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: trade rumor*

Sweets for Thomas doesn't work, Sweets makes ~$2.8 million and Thomas $5.3 million.

Unless, of course, the Whiz have a Trade Exception?


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: trade rumor*



bullsville said:


> Sweets for Thomas doesn't work, Sweets makes ~$2.8 million and Thomas $5.3 million.
> 
> Unless, of course, the Whiz have a Trade Exception?


Or we use ours from the Eddy trade. Right?


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: trade rumor*

I have always liked E.Thomas. But would we have traded Curry for Thomas? This is what the trade amounts to! 

Are we going to give up on Sweetney? 

Add to all of this we would need to send another player to them in the deal. I dont look for this to happen.


----------



## step

*Re: trade rumor*

We're offering them cash aswell, supposedly. Or we could just as easily add Pike.

Etan Thomas:
05/06 5,393,300 
06/07 5,883,600 
07/08 6,373,900 
08/09 6,864,200 
09/10 7,354,500 

Contract has trade kicker


----------



## narek

*Re: trade rumor*



theanimal23 said:


> Or we use ours from the Eddy trade. Right?


We would send cash as the quoted part of the article said. Pax said earlier this year he had $3 mill in cash he could use in a trade.


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: trade rumor*



step said:


> We're offering them cash aswell, supposedly. Or we could just as easily add Pike.
> 
> Etan Thomas:
> 05/06 5,393,300
> 06/07 5,883,600
> 07/08 6,373,900
> 08/09 6,864,200
> 09/10 7,354,500
> 
> Contract has trade kicker



Wow thats a long contract. How has Etan done this year? I know he did well against us in the playoffs. He is a bruiser down low. I would have tried to get Reggie Evans instead, but he is gone. Etan would give us some needed bulk. He doesn't bring Sweet's O.

How much does Sweet make next year? I am wondering how this would impact our cap situation. I know it won't cause a drastic change, but every penny counts.

Crap, I gtg to class. Too bad I won't be able to see a computer till 4 hours from now. This and draft day are my two favorite days of the year. Your team can go from pretender to contender, or vice versa.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

Its looking like the Pax bashing will be from the "Damned if you Don't" angle

Can't write off the possibility that the bashing will be "Damned if you Do" but the deadline is coming up pretty quick now...


----------



## step

> How much does Sweet make next year? I am wondering how this would impact our cap situation. I know it won't cause a drastic change, but every penny counts.


$2,696,956

If this is true, we've gone down from ~$15M to $12M. I really wouldn't mind shipping O off for an expiring contract.


----------



## The ROY

I'd rather draft Shelden Williams


----------



## bullsville

*Re: trade rumor*

$3 million in cash can be added to any trade, but it doesn't change the fact that the salaries still have to match up.

You can't trade a $3 million salary plus $3 mil in cash for a $6 million salary.

And IIRC, our Trade Exception from the Curry deal is just under $4 million, which isn't enough to acquire Thomas' $5.3 million salary. You cannot combine a Trade Exception with a salary, so that won't work.

We could add Pike and make the deal work, though, as step pointed out.

Also, I am pretty sure that you can combine Trade Exceptions, so if the Whiz have a TE that they can use to trade for Sweets, that would give us a TE that we could combine with the TE we have to acquire Thomas.


----------



## Frankensteiner

From the latest Chad Ford chat:



> DH (Atlanta): Chad, reports are saying NY's long term plan is to trade for Garnett. Following yesterday's horrible Francis trade, who would be involved in a trade for KG if a trade were to go down? Are the Knicks planning any other moves prior to today's deadline?
> 
> Chad Ford: (12:21 PM ET ) I don't think Kevin McHale wants what Isiah has. I think the Wolves might, MIGHT, have considered a deal with Penny Haraway's expiring contract, Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and David Lee ... but that's over now. Not sure Minnesota would want anything else. I think the Bulls remain a better possibility for KG. If Paxson could offer Luol Deng, the Knicks No.1 (which could be No. 1 overall) and the Bulls No. 1 ... I think that's probably the best McHale could do.


I'd do that.


----------



## step

> Its looking like the Pax bashing will be from the "Damned if you Don't" angle


Pretty much.
I want Paxson to stand pat with the core, but I also want to ship off the people who aren't in our long term picture - Othella, Pike, Sweets etc.

This trade isn't too bad, it's growing on me more and more due to the fact that we probably won't go after Harrington (YAY!).
If we can get Gooden and a big 2, via the draft or someone like Salmons, we'd be in a pretty good position, superstar trade or not.


----------



## step

> I'd do that.


For sure, though the 3 would be a bit thin :S, which means probably trying to sign Al. Eek.


----------



## Frankensteiner

Gooden mention:



> cleveland, ohio: are the cavs gonna make a trade? gooden, jones, snow?
> 
> Chad Ford: (12:27 PM ET ) Lots of interest around the league in Gooden, but so far, it looks like the Cavs have been unwilling to pull the trigger in a deal for him. Not sure that's the right call. He's a restricted free agent this summer and I'm not sure how much I'd pay for him as a GM. Someone will overpay. I don't see him in a Cavs jersey past this season.


----------



## dsouljah9

Ohter than Al Harrington, there is really no one on the market worth spending the max on. 12 mil should be able to get either Harrington or 2 solid MLE level players.

Look at this list:

1. Peja Stojakovic, SF, Sacramento (Player option)
2. Ben Wallace, PF/C, Detroit
3. Jason Terry, PG, Dallas
4. Al Harrington, PF, Atlanta
5. Drew Gooden, PF, Cleveland (Restricted)
6. Bonzi Wells, SG/SF, Sacramento
7. Nene, PF/C, Denver (Restricted)
8. Matt Harpring, SG/SF, Utah
9. Joel Przybilla, C, Portland
10. Speedy Claxton, PG, New Orleans
11. Vladimir Radmanovic, SF/PF, Seattle
12. Bobby Jackson, PG/SG, Memphis
13. Keith Van Horn, SF/PF, Dallas
14. Melvin Ely, Charlotte (Restricted)
15. Sam Cassell, PG, Minnesota
16. Chris Wilcox, PF, LA Clippers (Restricted)
17. Mike James, Toronto (Player option)
18. Alonzo Mourning, Miami
19. James Posey, SG/SF, Miami (Player option)
20. Reggie Evans, PF, Seattle
21. John Salmons, Philadelphia (Restricted)
22. Ronald Murray, Seattle
23. Nazr Mohammed, C, San Antonio
24. Jared Jeffries, Washington (Restricted)
25. Michael Olowokandi, C, Minnesota 

Wallace and Peja will re-sign with thier team; we don't need Terry. So that leaves either Harrington or 2 other players on that list.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

> Chad Ford: (12:21 PM ET ) I don't think Kevin McHale wants what Isiah has. I think the Wolves might, MIGHT, have considered a deal with Penny Haraway's expiring contract, Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and David Lee ... but that's over now. Not sure Minnesota would want anything else. I think the Bulls remain a better possibility for KG. If Paxson could offer Luol Deng, the Knicks No.1 (which could be No. 1 overall) and the Bulls No. 1 ... I think that's probably the best McHale could do.


Sounds great. CBA be damned.


----------



## Frankensteiner

step said:


> For sure, though the 3 would be a bit thin :S, which means probably trying to sign Al. Eek.


He'd be out of our price range at that point. More likely try to entice someone like James Posey with the MLE.


----------



## The ROY

Deng, Knicks #1 & Bulls #1 for KG?

HELL Yeah..that's a win-win for both sides

I wouldn't even doubt that Mchale is THINKING of something like that...

They'd have Deng, potentially Morrison or Gay & S. Williams with our pick? That would be one of the best rebuilding teams in the nba.


----------



## truebluefan

Deng, TT and our two picks for KG? Hell yeah!


----------



## TripleDouble

KG is 29 FYI.


----------



## Frankensteiner

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Sounds great. CBA be damned.


It would work in the summer, would it not?


----------



## step

> He'd be out of our price range at that point. More likely try to entice someone like James Posey with the MLE.


Well we'd have to hope he hates it in Miami and doesn't pick up his player option. Other than that I don't see that many 3's there, which worries me.
Radmanovic? Would he even sign for the MLE. Would we even want him is another question.
The only other person on that list that I'd consider would be Salmons. Rotate him with Gordon at the 2 and Nocioni at the 3, probably the smallest 3 combo in the league.


----------



## step

> It would work in the summer, would it not?


We can't trade this years pick I believe.


> KG is 29 FYI.


I still see him being effective for probably another 5 years.
His contract situation concerns me, 2 more years before his player option of $24M.


----------



## Frankensteiner

dsouljah9 said:


> Ohter than Al Harrington, there is really no one on the market worth spending the max on. 12 mil should be able to get either Harrington or 2 solid MLE level players.


Matt Harpring is a solid player, didn't realize he was a free agent. If the Bulls could make that Garnett deal and sign him with the MLE, they'd be set to compete with any team in the East.


----------



## Frankensteiner

TripleDouble said:


> KG is 29 FYI.


KG will be great untill he's 35 IMO.


----------



## TripleDouble

Frankensteiner said:


> KG will be great untill he's 35 IMO.


I disagree but neither of us has any evidence to convince the other. I just think that his game is so predicated around athleticism that when that slips, as it invariably does during the early 30s, he'll slip. Plus, he's got a lot of wear on his tires.


----------



## Rhyder

I like the Sweetney for Etan Thomas deal quite a bit. While it doesn't solve our low post scoring deficiency, it definately helps our size, rebounding, and allows Tyson to roam more freely when they are on the court together.

With Wilcox probably likely to re-sign with Seattle following the trade, Nazr was really the only guy that I might want more than Etan--and I still think I prefer Etan. However, we don't know how much money Nazr would command in a weak FA class and Nazr might not even sign wih us anyways.

Sweetney is just not ideal in the offensive system we run. If he was already in shape, it would be worth the risk to keep him. What do we do next year with him if he comes into camp in shape in his contract year and still plays inconsistantly, or conversely, improves on his skills but makes no progress with his conditioning. I just never saw Mike in a Bulls uniform past next season.

Even though Etan is scheduled to make ~$5.9mil, Sweetney was scheduled to make ~$2.7mil. In terms of how it affects our chances in FA, it is like signing Etan to a $3.2mil deal (assuming Sweetney's production is irrelevant). While we will have to pay more for his service in future years, this seems like an excellent deal from the Bulls perspective.

A possible trade might be:


> Chicago Trade Breakdown
> 
> *Outgoing*
> Eric Piatkowski
> 6-7 SG from Nebraska
> 2.1 ppg, 0.7 rpg, 0.7 apg in 8.1 minutes
> 
> Mike Sweetney
> 6-8 PF from Georgetown
> 9.2 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 1.0 apg in 20.5 minutes
> 
> *Incoming*
> Etan Thomas
> 6-10 PF from Syracuse
> 4.4 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.2 apg in 14.2 minutes
> 
> Donnell Taylor
> 6-4 SG from Alabama-Birmingham
> 3.0 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.9 apg in 7.5 minutes
> Change in team outlook: -3.9 ppg, -2.3 rpg, and -0.6 apg.
> 
> Successful Scenario
> Due to Chicago and Washington being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Chicago and Washington had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out unless trade exceptions were used for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.


----------



## TripleDouble

I'd think Washington would have to throw in a future pick to get the Bulls to eat all of Etan's salary.


----------



## L.O.B

I am not sure what to make of this 3 way. 

Denver gets: Ruben Patterson and Reggie Evans

Portland: Lenard, Potapenko

Seattle gets: Earl Watson

Denver gets more depth at 4, a malcontent 3 and loses another shooter. The Nuggets didn't have many players that would make you get out and guard them at the stripe before this trade. The do gain alot of toughness though. I don't think Patterson addresses their need for a 2 guard. 

Seattle gets a back up 1

Portland gets cap relief.


----------



## step

> I am not sure what to make of this 3 way.


The shooter Denver lost hasn't played since mid December, so that wasn't a huge loss. Watson was made redundant with Boykins stepping up. They basically gave up nothing, and what they received might end up to be nothing aswell, Patterson has a player option next year but has expressed his wishes to go to a contender, Evans is an UFA in the offseason, but will atleast provide some relief this year.

Seattle gets a much needed PG.

Portland gets cap space and finally rid themselves of Patterson.

It's pretty much a win-win situation for all.


----------



## Showtyme

step said:


> The shooter Denver lost hasn't played since mid December, so that wasn't a huge loss. Watson was made redundant with Boykins stepping up. They basically gave up nothing, and what they received might end up to be nothing aswell, Patterson has a player option next year but has expressed his wishes to go to a contender, Evans is an UFA in the offseason, but will atleast provide some relief this year.
> 
> Seattle gets a much needed PG.
> 
> Portland gets cap space and finally rid themselves of Patterson.
> 
> It's pretty much a win-win situation for all.


I think you're right on the reasons for the trade, but none of them were THAT much added value.

Seattle already has a great PG, just needed one that plays a little defense.

Portland gets not much cap space and Patterson is one of their most consistent players on the court (not off the court, perhaps)

Denver comes out on top, sort of, because they were able to relieve the logjam at PG (three short guards) and turn it into a perimeter defender. I think the Nuggets will be a really good fit for Ruben Patterson. But again... Earl Watson for Ruben Patterson (essentially) isn't that much of a team-changer.

It's pretty much an okay-sure-fine situation for all.


----------



## narek

Showtyme said:


> I think you're right on the reasons for the trade, but none of them were THAT much added value.
> 
> Seattle already has a great PG, just needed one that plays a little defense.
> 
> Portland gets not much cap space and Patterson is one of their most consistent players on the court (not off the court, perhaps)
> 
> Denver comes out on top, sort of, because they were able to relieve the logjam at PG (three short guards) and turn it into a perimeter defender. I think the Nuggets will be a really good fit for Ruben Patterson. But again... Earl Watson for Ruben Patterson (essentially) isn't that much of a team-changer.
> 
> It's pretty much an okay-sure-fine situation for all.


Portland is getting rid of someone who really didn't want to be in Portland, but was going to pick up his player option next year. Patterson and McMillan have had some issues this year, so that's another reason for the trade.


----------



## step

> Seattle already has a great PG, just needed one that plays a little defense.


They needed depth there, Ridnour is injured, Brunson is gone, Murray isn't really a PG.



> Portland gets not much cap space and Patterson is one of their most consistent players on the court (not off the court, perhaps)


Pity he had to be a ***** all the time and take his requests to the media... weekly. They removed a thorn out of their side.



> Earl Watson for Ruben Patterson (essentially) isn't that much of a team-changer.


I agree, but it'll sort of help, even if only for the short term. Atleast they managed to remove Watson's long term contract.

It's no blockbuster, but it makes sense for all.


----------



## ScottMay

I think Watson will have a positive effect on the Sonics that goes beyond his individual ability.

I can't stress enough how poor of a defender Ridnour is. I mean, they are a team chock full of poor individual defenders, but it starts with him. 

If Watson does a better job there, and there's no reason to believe he won't, maybe that'll encourage the other players to step it up defensively. They weren't a horrible defensive unit last year, after all.

I think Watson can do everything Ridnour can offensively, too. He might not push the ball as quickly, but he should have an advantage in just about every other area.

The only downside is that Seattle should have made the deal two months ago when they could have salvaged their season.


----------



## The ROY

and about that KG deal..

Mchale wouldn't do it now ANYWAY

1. KG would make us better, ALOT better...thus meaning we wouldn't get a lotto pick anyway

2. Mchale would probably wanna see how much better NY gets...he'd atleast wait til' they're pick position in the draft to pull that move..


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: trade rumor*



step said:


> We're offering them cash aswell, supposedly. Or we could just as easily add Pike.
> 
> Etan Thomas:
> 05/06 5,393,300
> 06/07 5,883,600
> 07/08 6,373,900
> 08/09 6,864,200
> 09/10 7,354,500
> 
> Contract has trade kicker


That is just disgustingly ugly.

Etan was benched Tuesday night for getting into a fight with Brendan Haywood, too.

http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20060222-010222-4155r.htm

It's an ugly contract, the guy's always hurt, and he's a bit of a hothouse flower/powder keg/nutcase. 

I'd much rather keep "Sweets" and cling to the (faint, unrealistic) hope that he'll get in shape.


----------



## step

> 2. Mchale would probably wanna see how much better NY gets...he'd atleast wait til' they're pick position in the draft to pull that move..


Hence why it was rumoured for the offseason.


----------



## The ROY

step said:


> Hence why it was rumoured for the offseason.


oh, didn't see that part


----------



## step

> oh, didn't see that part


It was more implied, especially with the details of the trade. That and nobody wants TT, no matter the circumstance.


----------



## socco

I'm hearing Griffin, Madsen, and Frahm for Harrington and Piatkowski. Any of you guys hear anything like that? Makes no sense for Minny, but McHale's running things so I guess I wouldn't be shocked.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: trade rumor*



ScottMay said:


> Etan was benched Tuesday night for getting into a fight with Brendan Haywood, too.


How soon can he be in Chicago? I was pretty fond of the last guy to go after Brenda.

I kid. I appreciate what a healthy Etan brings to the floor, but that contract, plus the fact that he misses a fair amount of games, makes it a no-go for me.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

socco said:


> I'm hearing Griffin, Madsen, and Frahm for Harrington and Piatkowski. Any of you guys hear anything like that? Makes no sense for Minny, but McHale's running things so I guess I wouldn't be shocked.


I don't see that it makes too much sense for either team.

Where have you been hearing this hot nugget?


----------



## UMfan83

I just IMed Ben to check on his trade status, but he hasn't responded to me


----------



## socco

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I don't see that it makes too much sense for either team.
> 
> Where have you been hearing this hot nugget?


Not a real reliable source. But he did know that Taylor and McHale were going to talk to the Knicks on Monday (which later was confirmed by others, and I assume is where the KG rumors came from), and he knew about the Davis-Wally trade before it happen. The guy I usually get info from isn't around, otherwise I'd ask him about it.


----------



## Scinos

ScottMay said:


> I think Watson will have a positive effect on the Sonics that goes beyond his individual ability.
> 
> I can't stress enough how poor of a defender Ridnour is. I mean, they are a team chock full of poor individual defenders, but it starts with him.
> 
> If Watson does a better job there, and there's no reason to believe he won't, maybe that'll encourage the other players to step it up defensively. They weren't a horrible defensive unit last year, after all.
> 
> I think Watson can do everything Ridnour can offensively, too. He might not push the ball as quickly, but he should have an advantage in just about every other area.
> 
> The only downside is that Seattle should have made the deal two months ago when they could have salvaged their season.


I think Ridnour's problems have really been exaggerated with the lack of a backup PG. He's forced to play 40+ minutes a night, and he was running on fumes by the all-star break. His body is just not suited to that kind of wear and tear. He was supposed to sit out 3 weeks with a sprained knee, but he only missed 1 game. I give him credit for playing through injuries, but it's affected his performance.

Where I think the Earl Watson trade helps is you can cut Luke's minutes back to 28-30 a night and have Earl playing the other 20 minutes. Both guys can then go balls out on both sides of the floor.


----------



## step

> I'm hearing Griffin, Madsen, and Frahm for Harrington and Piatkowski. Any of you guys hear anything like that? Makes no sense for Minny, but McHale's running things so I guess I wouldn't be shocked.


Unless they feel Othella would actually produce more.


----------



## truebluefan

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I don't see that it makes too much sense for either team.
> 
> Where have you been hearing this hot nugget?


Rumor has it that the bulls have interest in Griffin. Last rumor was sweetney/griffin. Maybe this is another version?

Griffiin is the prize. He can blocks shots. 

Frahm. 6-5 guard. Shoots 37% and 60% in fts. 

Madsen 6-9, career 47%. 2.5 pts, 3 rebounds in 13 minutes. 

Griffin and madsen are signed. Griff through summer of 2007 at less than 3 mill. Madsen through 09-10! less than 3 mill each year.


----------



## socco

Alright, talk to my man now, and he says: "i dont buy it, yet" and "hmm, person i talked to didn't mention it". But he's been busy all day and says he's kinda out of the loop on this one. Other people are talking about it some now though, so who knows :whoknows:


----------



## greekbullsfan

Twin Cities radio is stating a deal has been reached:

Piatkowski and Harrington for Griffin, Madsen and Frahm.

Yawn


----------



## socco

No, they didn't report it was a done deal. Just said it was a rumor.


----------



## fl_flash

greekbullsfan said:


> Twin Cities radio is stating a deal has been reached:
> 
> Piatkowski and Harrington for Griffin, Madsen and Frahm.
> 
> Yawn


Well, if this is true, we've got the roster space for a two for three swap. Kinda puts a kink in that whole 'jib or bust' model I keep reading about. Griffin is talented but one of the NBA's supreme headcases. Not an earth-shattering put-us-on-the-map-and-guarantee-us-more-than-a-first-round-exit type deal, but it ain't bad - if it's true.


----------



## Qwerty123

I've always based salary figures off of HoopsHype (which shows Madsen with 4 more years), but I should point out that ESPN's Trade Machine says that both he and Frahm have expiring deals. If that's the case, it's a good deal talent and cap-wise, though I'm not sure about swapping a vet for someone with a reputation as a problem child.


----------



## T.Shock

If this does happen, it could very well be because of the minutes Malik Allen has been seeing and playing well in. Griffin does a lot more than Harrington. He can block shots, rebound, and hit the outside shot. Frahm is a throwaway and Madsen is ummmm interesting. Skiles doesn't play Piatkowski at all really, and Othella is older and has a longer deal than Malik Allen who brings many of the same things. Now let's expand that to Deng, two first rounders, Duhon for Garnett and I'll be realllly interested.


----------



## SALO

truebluefan said:


> Rumor has it that the bulls have interest in Griffin. Last rumor was sweetney/griffin. Maybe this is another version?
> 
> Griffiin is the prize. He can blocks shots.
> 
> Frahm. 6-5 guard. Shoots 37% and 60% in fts.
> 
> Madsen 6-9, career 47%. 2.5 pts, 3 rebounds in 13 minutes.
> 
> Griffin and madsen are signed. *Griff through summer of 2007 at less than 3 mill*. Madsen through 09-10! less than 3 mill each year.


Is that all Griffin is signed for? I thought he was making more than that, sign me up!

Sweets for Griffin straight up. 

When Tyson isn't in the game we have zero interior presence. Griffin is an excellent shot blocker. 

If it's really true that both Madsen and Frahm have expiring deals then I would also do the Othella + Pike deal.


----------



## Qwerty123

I did some more investigating into Madsen's contract, and it appears the ESPN Trade Machine is incorrect in this case. He signed a 5-year extension before the season.



> Madsen, a free agent who had spent the two previous seasons in Minnesota, signed a five-year contract.


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=nba&id=2129662


----------



## step

> If it's really true that both Madsen and Frahm have expiring deals then I would also do the Othella + Pike deal.





> Madsen through 09-10!


Truebluefan said it in his post - Madsen is signed till 2010.


----------



## mizenkay

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2342131




> The New Jersey Nets have agreed to send center Marc Jackson and forward Linton Johnson to the New Orleans Hornets in exchange for Bostjan Nachbar, ESPN.com has learned.
> 
> The deal is pending league approval.
> 
> *The Nets' motive for the deal was to get under the tax level to sign Tim Thomas if and when the Bulls buy out his contract.*
> 
> The Hornets acquire some much needed size in the veteran Jackson.


----------



## Rhyder

I'm not a fan of Griffin at all and feel his upside is overrated by a lot of people. However, he would be a relatively low-risk acquisition at his contract. If he improves on his shot selection he could fufill the role Songaila has for us, and be a better defender and rebounder to boot. With Malik stepping up, I'm fine with either trading Sweetney, Harrington, or Songaila himself for Griffin.


----------



## The ROY

pax reported on the score that no deals have been made

got it off realgm...


----------



## socco

The two teams DID get an extension, so it's possible they could still be working something out.


----------



## mizenkay

_The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later._

i've been listening to the score, and there are no deals to report. and no buyouts either. 

but interesting rumors over on realgm via a twolves message board is that the bulls and the twolves have been granted an extension till 6pm to get a deal done?

stay tuned.


http://www.twolvescentral.com/


----------



## step

> but interesting rumors over on realgm via a twolves message board is that the bulls and the twolves have been granted an extension till 6pm to get a deal done


WOW.


----------



## mizenkay

score update at 3:05 CT

_"forget about PP or ray allen wearing a bulls uniform. pax wants to keep his young core together." _

so who knows!


----------



## step

> "forget about PP or ray allen wearing a bulls uniform. pax wants to keep his young core together."


That's good.

Now the questions is, did we get KG?


----------



## truebluefan

mizenkay said:


> _The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later._
> 
> i've been listening to the score, and there are no deals to report. and no buyouts either.
> 
> but interesting rumors over on realgm via a twolves message board is that the bulls and the twolves have been granted an extension till 6pm to get a deal done?
> 
> stay tuned.
> 
> 
> http://www.twolvescentral.com/


I saw that rumor myself. I would not mind having Griffin. He does not answer our need for a scorer, but other players will have a difficult time scoring against him. He can hit a three every once in a while.


----------



## rosenthall

mizenkay said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2342131


LOL, the Hornets sure are cornering the market on crappy big men, it seems.


----------



## truebluefan

Twolves board is going wild. They seem to think KG has been traded. Said Bulls have until 6pm to iron out specifics with Wolves. 

If 6pm is true, then why does it take that long for a minor trade of griffin and change for Harrington and change? 

Then again, this is a messageboard. all of it could be bogus.


----------



## step

> It is unclear if it is a deal for KG but KG was seen leaving the Target Center in a very upset manner.


Interesting.


----------



## bullsville

I hope that we trade for Griffin for the simple reason that it should put an end to all the ridiculous "jib central" and "Hoosiers" and "choir boy" garbage that we have to read here far too often.

Not to mention "Pro-active".

Besides that, Griffin is a great shot-blocker, a pretty good rebounder, and he has some definite skills on offense.


----------



## theanimal23

Man, I was gone for 4.5 hours b/c of Class and Mtgs. What trades have I missed?

I know Francis was gone last night, and I heard of the Sea/Den/Ptl trade earlier today. I then read about the trade between NJ and NO/OK. Were any draft picks exchanged in that trade?

Any other trades occur, or got extensions?

Is the Bulls/Twolves trade for Griffin? Not KG? Did I read earlier that Minn wanted Penny's contract, Frye, Ariza, and Lee for KG?

Any info be greatly appreciated. I would throw in like 3 future 1sts, as long as we can keep the NYK pick this year, and Luol, and a few 2nd rounders, and all our expiring contracts for KG.


----------



## rosenthall

To me, Eddie Griffin would be an okay risk to take, but unless he's signed to something very close to the minimum, it'd be hard to stomach the fact that we'd be stuck w/ Mark Madsen for another 4 years. Blech. 

Of course, if taking on Mark Madsen meant we could take KG too, I'd be alright w/ that .


----------



## socco

theanimal23 said:


> Did I read earlier that Minn wanted Penny's contract, Frye, Ariza, and Lee for KG?


No, New York wanted KG for free. The Wolves aren't looking to trade him.


----------



## kukoc4ever

Just heard a quote from Paxson on THE SCORE, regarding the lack of activity (shocker!) at the trade deadline for the Bulls.

"I never talked to anyone about our core."

He also said he did talk to some teams about our picks and some smaller deals, but nothing worked out.

If he never talked to anyone about our core, it would be highly unlikely that he put any kind of respectable trade proposal together, or had one offered to him, for a legit "star," unless all it takes to get one is a draft pick without any of our core included.


----------



## narek

I just heard Pax on the Score from when he addressed the Press at the Berto Center - doesn't sound like there's a deal going on. Sounded like there were some minor things going on that didn't pan out because the other teams involved moved in another direction.


----------



## theanimal23

socco said:


> No, New York wanted KG for free. The Wolves aren't looking to trade him.


Hahaha. Man, I'm suprised they didn't try to use their Fool's Gold of Star-Franchise to get KG.


----------



## Zeb

> Vienna, Va.: I read that the Bulls offered Mike Sweetney and cash for Etan Thomas. Why wouldn't the Zards take them up on this offer? Sweetney is a big body who can put up points and grab boards, not to mention he's a local boy. Sweetney has to bring more to the table than what Etan's brought this season..
> 
> Ivan Carter: Be careful about what you read. The issue is that the Bulls were not going to take on Etan's contract which runs through 2009-2010 and is hanging on the Zards' leger like an unmovable rock. If Etan were having a solid season, maybe but since he's all but fallen out of the rotation, no team is going to take on that kind of salary. *I heard, and this is pure rumor, that Ernie actually asked for Luol Deng and the Bulls laughed.* That's how these negotiations go. A GM throws out an offer, usually one asking for the moon, and the other side scoffs. That's why you see a whole lot more rumor than actual movement.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/02/22/DI2006022201139.html?sub=AR


----------



## truebluefan

hahaha Deng and sweetney for Thomas? Yeah, right. Or even Deng for Thomas? Still done match and I wouldnt do that one eithr.


----------



## theanimal23

Zeb said:


> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/02/22/DI2006022201139.html?sub=AR


Hahahahahhaa. Deng for Etan? I know we should shoot for the stars, but C'mon.


----------



## ScottMay

> I heard, and this is pure rumor, that Ernie actually asked for Luol Deng and the Bulls laughed.


I'm sure there were probably other outrageous offers for Deng, what with all the talk from Bulls' assistant coaches about how selfish he is.


----------



## theanimal23

I read on another forum, that Skiles is suppose to be on a local Chicago radio station in 15 min. Any locals with details? Can you guys listen for us out of towners.

I gotta think Skiles would say something. I know Pax has said he isnt trading the core, but I still think we can package something without the core. Expiring contracts, and loads of picks.


----------



## mizenkay

theanimal23 said:


> I read on another forum, that Skiles is suppose to be on a local Chicago radio station in 15 min. Any locals with details? Can you guys listen for us out of towners.
> 
> I gotta think Skiles would say something. I know Pax has said he isnt trading the core, but I still think we can package something without the core. Expiring contracts, and loads of picks.



dude, check the espn update thread up at the top. there is a LINK, and you can listen LIVE! that's right. as it happens!!!

he will be on at the top of the hour.


:smilewink


----------



## theanimal23

I don't want Madsen. He has a long contract, and is HORRIBLE.

I like Griffin, but don't want to give up Darius.


----------



## GB

My one post for the day comes to us by way of Truehoop:



> Mr. Ford nicely sums up what a lot of people are thinking:
> 
> Steve Francis isn't the missing piece. Neither is Marbury, Crawford, Curry or Rose. There's a reason teams are willing to trade these players for draft picks and expiring contracts -- they don't want them.
> 
> No one denies their individual talent. What they all have in common is that wherever they go, chemistry disruptions ensue and losing follows. They are me-first players, more interested in the stat sheet than the win column, and they all think they are better than they actually are. They'll give you highlight plays, amazing individual performances and huge number of lottery balls in May.
> 
> I can understand why Isiah believes he's on the verge of building a winner this way. He's been drinking from the same cup that David Stern has been feeding us all of these years -- that somehow basketball is really about a handful of individual superstars who can make our jaws drop on the fly.
> 
> Stars can win you a championship. In recent decades, the Lakers, Spurs, Bulls, Rockets and Celtics have proved that. But putting too many players on the floor who think they are stars is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> It makes you wonder whether Isiah really played on the same team Joe Dumars did in the late '80s. Dumars looked at his years playing with the Pistons and came to the conclusion that chemistry, work ethic and guys who could fill a particular role were the foundation of a contender. Isiah came to the opposite conclusion.
> 
> I would add one other point: yes, championship teams have stars. In this league, most teams have stars, and Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, and Michael Jordan have scooped up most of the titles of late. But "having stars" is not as good a predictor of success as is having a collection of great role players, who give 100% and help their team a lot without needing the ball. That's what Chicago had around Jordan. That's what the Lakers had with O'Neal, and San Antonio with Duncan. All of those teams had some low-salaried guys on the floor in crunch time. (Joe Dumars told me that the exact reason he got Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton was because they were both players who could do their thing while only having possession of the ball for a tiny percentage of every possession.)
> 
> Every championship team has great role players. Guys like Rick Fox. Tayshaun Prince. Avery Johnson. John Paxson. They play their brains out, don't pout, and let the stars be the stars while not hurting the team in any way. That's what's rare. That's what's precious.
> 
> And that's what the Knicks have less of, right now, than any team in memory.


http://www.truehoop.com/new-york-knicks-1358-chad-ford-on-the-steve-francis-trade.html


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

I don't believe it for a second, but just hearing that KG rumor gave me that feeling like when I buy a lottery ticket.

_just maybe, just maybe, if only..._


----------



## kukoc4ever

Another Paxson quote.

"Really, the philosophy has always been to not tamper with what we can do this summer with our picks or our money."


----------



## ScottMay

kukoc4ever said:


> Another Paxson quote.
> 
> "Really, the philosophy has always been to not tamper with what we can do this summer with our picks or our money."


*celebrate*

Yeah! I can't wait for feel-good stories about Benny the Bull meeting Al Harrington and Nazr Mohammed at O'Hare!

*whoot*


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

ScottMay said:


> *celebrate*
> 
> Yeah! I can't wait for feel-good stories about Benny the Bull meeting Al Harrington and Nazr Mohammed at O'Hare!
> 
> *whoot*


At least we didn't show Ben Gorden the door in a deal lopsided against us.

And we didn't have a round of "Stock em deep and sell em cheap."


----------



## Wynn

ScottMay said:


> *celebrate*
> 
> Yeah! I can't wait for feel-good stories about Benny the Bull meeting Al Harrington and Nazr Mohammed at O'Hare!
> 
> *whoot*


Remind me again who were the big FA winners that summer? 

*Orlando* got TMac and Grant Hill and proceeded to sink into the toilet.....

*San Antonio* resigned Duncan, which some of us knew was going to happen all along.....

*Detroit* agreed to S&T for heart and hustle in favor of losing Grant Hill for nothing, and turned their franchise around.....

I may be remembering wrong, but wasn't that the summer we drafted Brand and Artest, and brought in Miller and Mercer? Seems to me that an awful large contingent on this board complains about losing Brand, Artest, and Miller. Maybe we didn't do so badly as the "Benny the Bull" courtship comments may imply.


----------



## ScottMay

Wynn said:


> Remind me again who were the big FA winners that summer?
> 
> *Orlando* got TMac and Grant Hill and proceeded to sink into the toilet.....
> 
> *San Antonio* resigned Duncan, which some of us knew was going to happen all along.....
> 
> *Detroit* agreed to S&T for heart and hustle in favor of losing Grant Hill for nothing, and turned their franchise around.....
> 
> I may be remembering wrong, but wasn't that the summer we drafted Brand and Artest, and brought in Miller and Mercer? Seems to me that an awful large contingent on this board complains about losing Brand, Artest, and Miller. Maybe we didn't do so badly as the "Benny the Bull" courtship comments may imply.


Errr . . . so you're saying not to sign any free agents?

I'm not being obtuse, I honestly don't see your point.


----------



## SecretAgentGuy

Wynn said:


> Remind me again who were the big FA winners that summer?
> 
> *Orlando* got TMac and Grant Hill and proceeded to sink into the toilet.....
> 
> *San Antonio* resigned Duncan, which some of us knew was going to happen all along.....
> 
> *Detroit* agreed to S&T for heart and hustle in favor of losing Grant Hill for nothing, and turned their franchise around.....
> 
> I may be remembering wrong, but wasn't that the summer we drafted Brand and Artest, and brought in Miller and Mercer? Seems to me that an awful large contingent on this board complains about losing Brand, Artest, and Miller. Maybe we didn't do so badly as the "Benny the Bull" courtship comments may imply.


 Eddie Jones went to Miami and Tim Thomas resigned with Milwaukee. Brand and Artest were already on board. We ended up drafting Fizer and Jamal.


----------



## step

Anything new on the Wolves and the extension?


----------



## socco

step said:


> Anything new on the Wolves and the extension?


It's dead.


----------



## step

> It's dead.


It's just strange that they'd go to the trouble to ask for an extension and come up short.


----------



## spongyfungy

I love what Pip said about the Francis trade 

<center>
</center>


> <center>*Pippen on Francis Deal*
> </center>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am pretty much befuddled with what New York has done.
> 
> I am not a great fan of Steve Francis. He rubbed me the wrong way when he came into the league and demanded that Vancouver trade him. He just isn't the type of player that can make your team better or that can get you where you are trying to get to. He is very talented, but his skills are built around his individual success and not around the success of a team.
> 
> Any time you take on such a brilliant nickname as "Franchise," that name has to have some validity behind it and I don't think he has shown that he is a franchise player. It is not going to work for him even moving to New York.
> 
> This is another in a long list of desperate moves for the Knicks, going back to the Eddy Curry deal. Eddy Curry's success coming to New York has been about as good as my success coming back to Chicago when my career was pretty much done. He hasn't made any impact on that team, which, I am sure for John Paxson, is the best thing to happen. He just let his No. 1 draft pick go and got another one back. It was a good wash for them, because they didn't lose that draft pick. They sort of gambled on it, played with it, let it go, but then they got it back.
> 
> Isiah has brought in players on top of players. He isn't giving one player an opportunity to succeed. You have Stephon Marbury there. Then you bring in Jamal Crawford. Now Steve Francis.
> 
> _What are you going to do with these guys?_
> 
> These are three guys that love to pound the basketball and create their own shots. Who is going to succeed at that position? To me it seems like they have just told Isiah to just go out there and continue to see if we can have the highest payroll.
> 
> I don't see any chemistry with New York. I don't see that trade helping the Knicks in any way and as for Orlando, they have written this season off and are preparing themselves to continue rebuilding their young team. They want to get guys in there that can in the next three or four years be part of what they have been able to establish.
> 
> It is going to be the same type of situation. A lot of it has to do with the individual players. Players in today's game are not geared for winning. They aren't geared for a team concept. They're basically trying to get into the game and they have no knowledge as to what the game is really about.


http://www.nba.com/news/movement_2006.html


----------



## step

He's right on the money.


----------



## McBulls

So, as advertised, the Bulls stand pat for this season. 
It's a good thing, I think. None of the internet rumors seemed like very good ideas.

Sometimes the best trade is the trade you don't make. 
Bet the Bulls make the playoffs this year.


----------



## theanimal23

McBulls said:


> So, as advertised, the Bulls stand pat for this season.
> It's a good thing, I think. None of the internet rumors seemed like very good ideas.
> 
> Sometimes the best trade is the trade you don't make.
> Bet the Bulls make the playoffs this year.


Yeah. I wouldn't want to trade a superstar by gutting our core. I know we would have to trade away talent to get some, but we would become the TWolves part II. We would have no cap room, and little support for the superstar we could get.

This offseason is make it or break it for the next 5 years. I know we can always groom our assets for good trading pieces. But we can't wait to do that always. I have a feeling though, Pax won't go out on a spending spree. I think he'll keep the NYK pick, try to trade our 1st rounder for a Vet. In FA, he will go for guys like Gooden or AH (if he doesn't take the Max), and possibly a guy like Nazr. I think we will be slightly better next year, but no more than 10 wins better in the win column. It really comes down to how aggressive Paxson can be this offseason. I feel like he is a no-risk type of GM. I'm not saying that is bad, b/c Isiah shows you what that is like. But w/o any risk, there is little chance of a championship.


----------



## Frankensteiner

Was watching the TNT half-time show and David Aldridge said the Bulls made a late push for Al Harrington using Sweetney as bait. Mentioned Atlanta wanted to keep Harrington and re-sign him in the summer. Aldridge seemed to think Al wouldn't stay with the Hawks with teams like Chicago and the Hornets having cap room.


----------



## SALO

Frankensteiner said:


> Was watching the TNT half-time show and David Aldridge said the Bulls made a late push for Al Harrington using Sweetney as bait. Mentioned Atlanta wanted to keep Harrington and re-sign him in the summer. Aldridge seemed to think Al wouldn't stay with the Hawks with teams like Chicago and the Hornets having cap room.


I wonder what their best offer was for Harrington. He's not coming back to Atlanta, they should have tried to get something for him. Would have been a good move by Pax, renting Harrington for the year and seeing how he meshes with Skiles and the rest of our young guys. 

I'm kinda disappointed we didn't get Eddie Griffin. I think he would have had a big impact on our team defensively paired with Tyson.


----------



## Wynn

ScottMay said:


> Errr . . . so you're saying not to sign any free agents?
> 
> I'm not being obtuse, I honestly don't see your point.


No. I just think clever remarks about Benny the Bull -- obviously meant to point out our ineffectiveness in the "2 full boat FA" summer of Jerry -- are maybe not nearly as clever as you might think. I think just about everyone felt Orlando was the big winner there......... actual history (20/20 and all) tells a clearer story. Since that summer, Orlando has never recovered.

Now pardon me for being obtuse, I've been assuming that your remarks are denigrating the plan to go into the summer with cap flexibility, high draft picks, and an intact core of good young players. I agree that I'm not as bright as your average fellow, so maybe you need to "dumb it down" some and explain exactly which part of the plan doesn't work for you.


----------



## ScottMay

Wynn said:


> No. I just think clever remarks about Benny the Bull -- obviously meant to point out our ineffectiveness in the "2 full boat FA" summer of Jerry -- are maybe not nearly as clever as you might think. I think just about everyone felt Orlando was the big winner there......... actual history (20/20 and all) tells a clearer story. Since that summer, Orlando has never recovered.


Orlando has Dwight Howard and $20+ million in Cap Space next summer. I think they landed on their feet quite nicely.

Anyway, you've got me: Grant Hill got hurt, and Orlando didn't experience much success during the Hill/McGrady era (although at the same time, we were suffering through the worst six-year stretch in NBA history, so it's all relative).

Signing proven, highly sought-after elite FAs to big contracts is much less risky to me than relying on not-so-good FAs and picks in a lousy draft, regardless of what happened to Grant Hill. That's just my opinion.



> Now pardon me for being obtuse, I've been assuming that your remarks are denigrating the plan to go into the summer with cap flexibility, high draft picks, and an intact core of good young players. I agree that I'm not as bright as your average fellow, so maybe you need to "dumb it down" some and explain exactly which part of the plan doesn't work for you.


It's simple -- the free agents absolutely suck, the draft is very spotty at the top, and if the intention is to trade in the offseason for a superstar, we'll have far more competition for that player's services than we would have prior to the deadline.


----------



## Wynn

ScottMay said:


> *Orlando has Dwight Howard and $20+ million in Cap Space next summer*. I think they landed on their feet quite nicely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Six years later they have Dwight Howard and Cap Space *next summer*.......  and yet you take every opportunity to rise up against any poster who even mentions our caop situation. When is it okay to judge Orlando? 2025? 2050?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Signing proven, highly sought-after elite FAs to big contracts* is much less risky to me than relying on not-so-good FAs and picks in a lousy draft, regardless of what happened to Grant Hill. That's just my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> How many "proven, highly sought after FAs" have actually been signed outright? ...ever?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's simple -- the free agents absolutely suck, the draft is very spotty at the top, and *if the intention is to trade in the offseason for a superstar*, we'll have far more competition for that player's services than we would have prior to the deadline.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is the intention to trade for a superstar? That's not mine. FAs absolutely suck? I ask again where is this mythical summer with all of the amazing FAs that just lept up and signed outright with a new team.
> 
> A lot of talk is coming from a lot of posters about how horrible this team is. What will it take to make this season satisfying? A winning record? I believe we'll end this season above .500. Play-offs? I beleive we'll make the play-offs. A play-off win? I believe we'll get a play-off win. Second round? Can't help you there. Frankly, if we make the play-offs this season (I believe we will), than Pax and Skiles will have taken the team with the worst six year stretch in the history of the NBA and made them playoff contenders two years in a row. Using the two draft picks and signing a couple of FAs -- I've already gone on about who I want -- will elevate us to one of the top three teams in the east.
> 
> What else do we need???
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## McBulls

Wynn said:


> What else do we need???


A little luck in the lottery would be nice.


----------



## fl_flash

ScottMay said:


> Orlando has Dwight Howard and $20+ million in Cap Space next summer. I think they landed on their feet quite nicely.


this is where I don't get you Scott. You guys are alluding to the FA class of 2000 and how Orlando made out - at least on paper. You're saying that it's OK that they've been below average for all this time and that in the summer of 2007 they're looking pretty good - and that's acceptable to you? Dwight Howard and cap space. So, for seven years, they've been a pretty bad to mediocre team but that's OK. Pax took the worst team in any six year span in the history of the league and at least bought them back to respectability and has the exact same thing as Orlando with respect to cap space. We don't have a Dwight Howard, but Ben Gordon ain't no slouch. I'd argue our core is better than Orlando's at this point in time. Pax did it in less than three years on the job and that's not OK?





> Signing proven, highly sought-after elite FAs to big contracts is much less risky to me than relying on not-so-good FAs and picks in a lousy draft, regardless of what happened to Grant Hill. That's just my opinion.


As a general principle, I'd agree with you. The problem I see is in the execution. The young big-ticket guys who might come available in the summer of '07 I don't think will be there - James, Anthony, Bosh, Wade or even Hinrich will all probably be locked up this summer. The veteran FA's out there might not be as interested in going to a rebuilding situation like Orlando. That one is hard to guage. Guys like Michael Finley or Antoine Walker don't want to go with a young, rebuilding team. They want a shot at a title and at least to be on a winner.




> It's simple -- the free agents absolutely suck, the draft is very spotty at the top, and if the intention is to trade in the offseason for a superstar, we'll have far more competition for that player's services than we would have prior to the deadline.


I'd agree, there aren't very appealing FA's out there. The best that any team/GM can do is to identify how much they're willing to give up for any specific player and to amass whatever assets and flexability they can in order to even be in a position to bid on a particular players services. In that aspect, I'd have to say the Bulls are in good shape. Young players, cap space and draft picks. If a high-end player becomes available, I'd like to think that Pax and the Bulls can at least put themselves in the running. Your no-brainer full-boat free agent types will dictate where they're going to want to play anyway. For them, they're getting the cash no matter what so it boils down to what they want. Joe Johnson gave up winning for more money and a chance to be, for the most part, the man for the Hawks. Every situation is different. We'll just have to see how it plays out.


----------



## kukoc4ever

Paxson inherited a team that won 37% of its games the previous season and was on an upswing. Not a great team the previous year, but far from the worst in the NBA.

This whole "Paxson inherited the worst team in a six year span" is inaccurate. None of the meaningful players from the first 3-4 years were even around the season before Paxson took over and blew up that team.

Paxson created, after the playoff guarantee and team blowup one month later, one of the, if not the worst team that the Bulls fielded post Jordan. Paxson's first year team was the 2nd worst team in the league.

Kendall Gill, JYD, EROB, Duper, Fizer … all getting between 16 and 24 minutes a night. What a horrible team Paxson gave us in his first year. Much, much worse than the one he inherited.


----------



## kukoc4ever

As for "What else do we need?".... I want growth.

If the team wins 47 games and gets home court in the 1st round of the playoffs the year before, I want a better team and better results the next year. 

That's what we need.


----------



## fl_flash

kukoc4ever said:


> Paxson inherited a team that won 37% of its games the previous season and was on an upswing. Not a great team the previous year, but far from the worst in the NBA.
> 
> This whole "Paxson inherited the worst team in a six year span" is inaccurate. None of the meaningful players from the first 3-4 years were even around the season before Paxson took over and blew up that team.


This stuff just cracks me up. When it's convienent for you, you'll trump up how bad this team was. All this past summer you bemoaned how we were a 47 win team that had no chance of getting past the first round and how we were "swept" by the Wizards. Over and over again.

This is a real simple question. Did John Paxson take over a basketball team that had just completed the worst six year span of any team in the history of the league? 



> Paxson created, after the playoff guarantee and team blowup one month later, one of the, if not the worst team that the Bulls fielded post Jordan. Paxson's first year team was the 2nd worst team in the league.
> 
> Kendall Gill, JYD, EROB, Duper, Fizer … all getting between 16 and 24 minutes a night. What a horrible team Paxson gave us in his first year. Much, much worse than the one he inherited.


Yes, but his second year he created a 47 win juggernaut - right? That's what I've read over and over again these last few months. Must be hard to keep track of where you stand on things, huh?


----------



## kukoc4ever

fl_flash said:


> This is a real simple question. Did John Paxson take over a basketball team that had just completed the worst six year span of any team in the history of the league?


Yes, but my point is that it is irrelevant.

He took over one of the more successful teams in a 15 year span.

You can **** around with the timeframe all you want to make your case, but it does not matter. The most relevant team is the one he inherited, which won 37% of their games and was on an upswing, and looked so good to Paxson that he issued a playoff guarantee. The team led by Harper and Kukoc and the team when Brand and Artest were rookies are irrelevant, just as the 72 win Bulls team was. 

Why you would choose to heavily weight any of these teams in your analysis is beyond me. 




> Yes, but his second year he created a 47 win juggernaut - right? That's what I've read over and over again these last few months. Must be hard to keep track of where you stand on things, huh?


Paxson did a great job taking the remaining assets he inherited in Curry and Chandler and surrounding them with the good jib atmosphere they needed to develop and thrive, as we saw last year. Unfortunately, we're back to being middle of the pack, slightly better than the 37% win percentage team he inherited, but not much better. Our current team sure does give its all though. 110%.


----------



## Frankensteiner

fl_flash said:


> Yes, but his second year he created a 47 win juggernaut - right? That's what I've read over and over again these last few months. Must be hard to keep track of where you stand on things, huh?


LOL. Yeah, I'm confused too. Are there degrees of bad which are acceptable and which are not?


----------



## giantkiller7

HILARIOUS link


----------



## ViciousFlogging

fl_flash said:


> Must be hard to keep track of where you stand on things, huh?


didn't you get the memo, flash? Paxson had nothing to do with the fact that we doubled our win total last season. It was a fairy sprinkling pixie dust on the Berto Center.

And despite all this moaning about how we've taken a step back this season (yes, we have, and I'm not thrilled with it either), this year's team is still quite a bit better than any of the teams put on the floor post-MJ until Pax took over, and personally I think we're getting better as the season goes on. So if we take Pax's first day on the job as a starting point and today as an end-point, we've still made a fair amount of the progress that k4e wants so badly (yes, I realize that's somewhat arbitrary, but so are the criteria used to criticize Pax in many instances).

moving the goalposts when it's convenient is just par for the course.


----------



## kukoc4ever

Frankensteiner said:


> LOL. Yeah, I'm confused too. Are there degrees of bad which are acceptable and which are not?



Apparently so. Young team that wins 37% of their games on an upward trend is AWFUL while a young team that wins 45% of their games on a downward trend is the work of genius.


----------



## remlover

kukoc4ever said:


> Apparently so. Young team that wins 37% of their games on an upward trend is AWFUL while a *young team that wins 45% of their games on a downward trend* is the work of genius.


:banghead: 

Just stay on message....stay on message.


----------



## Zeb

Just when I thought I've seen it all, he begins trumpeting the great 37% winning team on an "upswing". The team that only won more than two games in a row once.

Behold, the 30-win team on an upswing!










Bagaric, Dalibor
Baxter, Lonny
Blount, Corie
Brunson, Rick
Chandler, Tyson
Crawford, Jamal
Curry, Eddy
Fizer, Marcus
Hassell, Trenton
Hoiberg, Fred
Marshall, Donyell
Mason, Roger
Robinson, Eddie
Rose, Jalen
Williams, Jay


----------



## ViciousFlogging

kukoc4ever said:


> The most relevant team is the one he inherited, which won 37% of their games and was on an upswing, and looked so good to Paxson that he issued a playoff guarantee.


What percentage of the games is this year's team, which you can't stop reminding us is a huge disappointment and step backwards, winning? 

and even though we've been over this and over this, I just can't see how you could watch the same team I was watching at the open of the 03-04 season and tell me they were on an upswing. They were selfish, they quit on games, and on their admittedly overmatched coach. Go ahead and blister Pax for misjudging that team's makeup and character by thinking they would build on the previous season's (modest) success, though. Nearly everyone here besides DaBullz was fooled by that team, including me, including Paxson. I'm just glad he made the quick decision to go in another direction and was able to field a playoff team by the _very next season_. But that's not progress, I guess.


----------



## kukoc4ever

ViciousFlogging said:


> and even though we've been over this and over this, I just can't see how you could watch the same team I was watching at the open of the 03-04 season and tell me they were on an upswing.


You could say the same about last year's team after 15 games.

Things can change. 

A healthy, productive Chandler, as we've seen both last year and this season, is a big factor.

A mature, productive Curry, as we saw last season, is a nice asset to have in your corner as well.


The three best players from our successful team, Curry, Chandler and Hinrich, were already on the squad, although Chandler was gimpy, Curry out of shape, Hinrich anemic and having rookie jitters and our starting SG suffering from a broken hand.


----------



## Frankensteiner

kukoc4ever said:


> Apparently so. Young team that wins 37% of their games on an upward trend is AWFUL while a young team that wins 45% of their games on a downward trend is the work of genius.


For your argument to make even the slightest bit of sense, you would have to consider the Bulls team of Paxson "year 1" to have a better present and future than the Bulls team of Paxson "year 3." Do you really, honestly believe that? Seriously?


----------



## remlover

Frankensteiner said:


> For your argument to make even the slightest bit of sense, you would have to consider the Bulls team of Paxson "year 1" to have a better present and future than the Bulls team of Paxson "year 3." Do you really, honestly believe that? Seriously?






























Come on, these guys are still oozing with potential!! Upswing in progress!!! ((must be a mighty big pendullum!!!!)


----------



## ViciousFlogging

kukoc4ever said:


> You could say the same about last year's team after 15 games.
> 
> Things can change.
> 
> A healthy, productive Chandler, as we've seen both last year and this season, is a big factor.
> 
> A mature, productive Curry, as we saw last season, is a nice asset to have in your corner as well.


Fair point. However, last year's team didn't visibly quit on games. Didn't turn on their coach. They kept working their arses off. I admit this is my opinion, but I don't think the 03 team had that kind of resolve. They had enough raw talent to match up with most NBA teams, but weren't interested in earning respect or victories. Last year's team wanted it, even when they were starting 2-13. The 03 team just didn't have the right chemistry IMO and spent too much time believing their hype. I'm not hating on those guys individually, but as a unit they didn't work and IMO weren't going to.

I don't think the last chapter of the Curry trade has been written yet, but I'm nowhere near calling it a victory for us. Right now, I say it's a mild loss, but that could change once we use NY's pick. I'm on record as being disappointed in how Currygate shook out and that the trade happened, but relieved we got something valuable back.


----------



## giantkiller7

Frankensteiner said:


> For your argument to make even the slightest bit of sense, you would have to consider the Bulls team of Paxson "year 1" to have a better present and future than the Bulls team of Paxson "year 3." Do you really, honestly believe that? Seriously?


Are you implying that you would take a team-oriented, solid-fundamentals group of young players who experienced great success in college and who will develop together for a long time over a group of overpayed, me-first walking turnovers who can't play, had piss poor attitudes, and had no semblance of chemistry whatsoever?


----------



## kukoc4ever

Frankensteiner said:


> For your argument to make even the slightest bit of sense, you would have to consider the Bulls team of Paxson "year 1" to have a better present and future than the Bulls team of Paxson "year 3." Do you really, honestly believe that? Seriously?



I think Hinrich, Crawford, Rose, Marshall, Curry, Chandler, Duhon, Nocioni and couple backup bigmen of the AD/Othella ilk with Skiles as the coach would be a good team right now and going forward.


----------



## GB

kukoc4ever said:


> I think Hinrich, Crawford, Rose, Marshall, Curry, Chandler, Duhon, Nocioni and couple backup bigmen of the AD/Othella ilk with Skiles as the coach would be a good team right now and going forward.



We know.

Lots of basketball talent sure. But not a lot of 

A. Work ethic
B. Basketball Savvy/Intelligence
C. Leadership

and too much

A. Cancer/Poison


----------



## mizenkay

i'm not sure what this discussion has to do with trade rumors. shall i split the thread and make a new one for you guys?


----------



## kukoc4ever

GB said:


> We know.
> 
> Lots of basketball talent sure. But not a lot of
> 
> A. Work ethic
> B. Basketball Savvy/Intelligence
> C. Leadership
> 
> and too much
> 
> A. Cancer/Poison


Hinrich, Duhon, Nocioni, Chandler, Skiles? Not enough work ethic?

Do you think Rose is a stupid basketball player? He's not a dive on the floor jib player, but he knows what he's doing out there. Rose is a cancer? Toronto fans sure didn't think so.

What leader that we currently have is missing? Deng? 

Its the same team that we currently have, except I guess we don't have the basketball smarts and defensive prowess of Ben Gordon. Heck, even the current Bulls coaching staff considers Deng a selfish player.


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## Wynn

kukoc4ever said:


> Rose is a cancer? Toronto fans sure didn't think so.


What did they trade him for? What has happened to their record since trading him. If they didn't think he was a cancer, maybe they're not too bright...


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## Frankensteiner

kukoc4ever said:


> I think Hinrich, Crawford, Rose, Marshall, Curry, Chandler, Duhon, Nocioni and couple backup bigmen of the AD/Othella ilk with Skiles as the coach would be a good team right now and going forward.


That was not the question I was asking.

That team would be quite poor, IMO. Much worse than this year's team, and with no lottery pick (outside of their own of course) or cap space to improve.


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## kukoc4ever

Wynn said:


> What did they trade him for?


Cap Space. In 6 months.



> If they didn't think he was a cancer, maybe they're not too bright...


The fans on the Toronto board all seemed perplexed about Jalen's Chicago reputation as a "cancer." Perhaps they are not bright. You'd have to take that up with them. 

I wonder how they would rate the intelligence of a devout follower of a losing GM?


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## kukoc4ever

Frankensteiner said:


> That team would be quite poor, IMO.


That's a jaw-dropper, IMO.


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## Frankensteiner

kukoc4ever said:


> That's a jaw-dropper, IMO.


I would also like to ask you what you see as acceptable progress for next season? I'm looking for number of wins, playoff seed, that type of stuff.


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## kukoc4ever

Frankensteiner said:


> I would also like to ask you what you see as acceptable progress for next season? I'm looking for number of wins, playoff seed, that type of stuff.


> 47 wins, 2nd round of the playoffs.

That may be tough to do, given the likely still gaping wound of losing Curry/Davis.


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## Frankensteiner

kukoc4ever said:


> > 47 wins, 2nd round of the playoffs.
> 
> That may be tough to do, given the likely still gaping wound of losing Curry/Davis.


So a team of Hinrich, Crawford, Rose, Marshall, Curry, Chandler, Duhon, Nocioni would get to 47 wins and the 2nd round of the playoffs?


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## kukoc4ever

Frankensteiner said:


> So a team of Hinrich, Crawford, Rose, Marshall, Curry, Chandler, Duhon, Nocioni would get to 47 wins and the 2nd round of the playoffs?


I think that team beats the Washington Wizards last season.


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## Wynn

kukoc4ever said:


> Cap Space. In 6 months.


Team would rather have cap space in six months than Jalen?! How could that be?



> I wonder how they would rate the intelligence of a devout follower of a losing GM?


I fail to understand the relevance of your relationship with Isaiah to this thread. Inform?


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## kukoc4ever

Wynn said:


> Team would rather have cap space in six months than Jalen?! How could that be?


Beats waiting 3 years.





> I fail to understand the relevance of your relationship with Isaiah to this thread. Inform?


Yikes. Now there is a personal attack.


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## Frankensteiner

kukoc4ever said:


> I think that team beats the Washington Wizards last season.


Ok, I will attempt to poll the board to see whether or not I'm the only person who thinks that team wouldn't get to 47 wins or the 2nd round.


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## mizenkay

hey this was an awesome thread everyone. thanks for posting. deadline is over. stick a fork in it.



gonna lock this sucker up (aww miz, such a hardass) - but please continue the discussion (if you must) in one of the two pax trade/summer move threads we have going already.


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