# BC throws away another pick on James Johnson



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

BC with another stupid, stupid move. So far every pick BC has given away has had a very good player available in our spot. Those are the extra chances we need to land a stud. Plus this pick was the only real value we got back for Bosh. We never should have had to give MIA our pick in the first place - that was a horrible decision.

James Johnson is never, ever going to be a difference maker for us so why give away a first round pick that at least has some potential to be one. Right now we have no clue what college or overseas player might have a huge run to end their season, or what player might unexpectedly drop that far. We know what JJ is and its not great.

Its just a bad, bad move. Especially with DD, Weems, Barbosa, Wright and Kleiza already on board on the wings and being loaded at the PF spot as well. No way will JJ be a better all around player than any of those guys.

James Johnson has already had weight and conditioning issues, word is he has an attitude problem and poor bball IQ as well, and certainly has no potential to be a star. Same old moves from BC bringing in very limited players when we need real basketball talent and all around abilities. JJ hasn't even found his nba position yet. Is he a 3 or a 4? Right now he's a 0.

Please fire BC now.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Are you really ranting about a #29 or #30 pick?

I don't think this move is going to be relevant at all. Late first rounders can always be bought for cash and some teams even go as far as preferring 2nd rounders to late firsts.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

to be fair.. i think james johnson has a unique talent and that is his passing. for a guy who is 6'8 he is an incredibly gifted passer. i really like sonny weems but I always thought james johnson was the kind of SF the raptors needed. he just has better nba size. whether he has the game to back it up remains to be seen. but this is a guy who the raps were considering at the #9 spot along with derozan, earl clark. i think we got a early-mid first rounder for late first rounder, which isn't too bad.

I don't really like what BC has done for the raps either but bringing in james johnson could be interesting... i would already move him ahead of wright and kleiza actually. he has great strength at the 3 spot and despite these weight concerns james johnson is fast and athletic. 6'8 250lbs is the kind of SF our team needs to keep up with the athleticism of the rest of the league and the raps had little to lose.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

He's a SF according to BC. 



> Colangelo: “James Johnson is a strong, athletic and versatile small forward that we have had our eye on dating back to the 2009 NBA Draft."


I know it's only D-League, but here are his numbers after he was sent down in late Jan



> 19.3 ppg
> 8.9 rebs
> 4.3 assist
> 2.5 blks
> ...


Link


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

The kid was considered a lottery pick back in 2009, I remember discussing him in some threads in here. I'm sure he's into MMA, not a bad thing to have a bit more toughness added to the team. 

I read somewhere BC had him behind Jrue Holiday and DeMar DeRozan for our pick. Both of those have turned out well, let's hope BC wasn't off on JJ either. 

I'm going to see this one out before I jump on BC. The likelihood of picking up a stud with that Miami pick was absurdly remote, the chances of picking up a player better than this kid were significantly higher but I'd like to see him in some court time before really lambasting the move.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> Are you really ranting about a #29 or #30 pick?
> 
> I don't think this move is going to be relevant at all. Late first rounders can always be bought for cash and some teams even go as far as preferring 2nd rounders to late firsts.


BC has proven time and again that he just doesn't value draft picks. And time and again history has shown that there are very good players available at those spots.

You need a ticket to win the lottery. And snagging a top talent with a late first gives us the kind of huge discount for multiple years a team owned by a pension board needs. Raps are not going to sign Marc Gasol or DeAndre Jordan this summer, but a pick like this *could *land us such a player.

Buying picks is great for soundbytes to sell the fans, but the Raps have either cheaped out or not been able to get a pick when they wanted.

I don't see JJ being any better than Kleiza, Weems, or wright.


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

Yea - wait it out lucky, let's see what he's got against his old team tonight. 

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2011/02/johnson-prepares-to-face-former-team.html

Coach has good things to say about him, but hard to give him minuts over Luol Deng, Carlos Boozer and Gibson - all can get strong double doubles in a given night. 

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/james-johnson

black belt toughness - very nice thing to have. The kid just turned 24, so adds to a young core. 

A late first rounder for a mid first rounder talent would seems as a good deal, but the problem is that his stock is lower because he really hasn't produced. So in that sense, I think it is a fairly equitable deal. Not lopsided like other deals going on. NBDL stats are awesome, hopefully his all-around skill translates to the NBA game.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i don't know what this team is doing anymore. to me, on the court, it looks like a total tank job- so i can only hope that it is; otherwise we've got some major problems moving forward. 

they need a crux. they need an axis. but they're doing everything backwards imo- they're painting the house before laying the foundation. i mean, the wall _is_ still going to collapse regardless of the paint quality. so can we please re-visit our priorities? we're running in circles like this. we already have complementary pieces that aren't doing much (and look even worse) because they're not complementing anything. and we keep adding more to the mix. what's the strategy here? insanity personified? i can't relate anymore. imo, it's getting out of control. 

this is not an important move in and of itself but it's symptomatic of a front office in denial, a front office whose biggest enemy is still in the mirror. and that's the real danger. i mean, i like some of these players- i adore amir johnson, for one. but none of them are standouts. they don't make any sense here, and you can tell by the apathy pasted on their faces. derozan is a rich man's morris peterson. calderon is standing in the way of bayless' development. bargnani is the worst rebounding big i've ever seen at the pro level. davis is not a gamechanger at this point in his career. barbosa looks utterly confused, square peg in a round hole. weems is pfft... wright just the same.

how will james johnson fit in now? does it even matter? are we supposed to take comfort in the fact that he impressed the raptors' scouting team in draft-time workouts two years ago, the same scouts who've been unable to uncover a single diamond in the rough over the first 15 years of this franchise's futile existence?

last summer was a different story. i was adamant that they needed stability. i still feel they did... i mean, look at their record today after losing the axis around whom the rest of the operation spun. but i don't think it's possible to make the same argument anymore without breaking out into hysterics. if anything, this franchise needs major change at the top to cause a ripple effect throughout the entire organization. i don't believe they're starting again because the faces are all the same- the same faces who've made it impossible to trust this franchise over the past 24 to 48 months. 

i want colangelo gone, too. i don't think there's any other way. i don't think he can help himself anymore. i think he's caught in the vortex and the executive team ought to save him (and us) from himself. there's way too much negative energy around this team and it absolutely needs to be extinguished by the time the lottery hits in may. it feels like vancouver '99... and we all know how that played out.

peace


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Here are the 29-30 pick of the last 10 years. Tell me if we really missed out.

2010 - Lazar Hayward, Daniel Orton
2009 - Christian Eyenga, Toney Douglas
2008 - J. R. Giddens, DJ White
2007 - Petteri Koponen, Alando Tucker
2006 - Joel Freeland, Mardy Collins
2005 - *David Lee*, Wayne Simien
2004 - David Harrison, Anderson Varejao
2003 - Maciej Lampe,Josh Howard
2002 - Steve Logan, Roger Mason Jr.
2001 - Gilbert Arenas, Trenton Hassel
2000 - Marko Jarić, Mark Madsen

I mean outside of David Lee and Arenas, are you really expecting any impact players?

Heres my view of the draft. If you believe in BC's drafting ability, then trust that he will get somebody useful through the draft. If you don't believe in BC's drafting ability, then he can have all the first rounders in the world and will still get guys that will be in Europe in a few years. Either way, it has nothing to do with a pick that 90% of the time will yield you a guy like Steve Logan.

I'd rather we focus on the guys that we have and the upcoming top 5 pick than worry about whether we get a guy like Maciej Jampe. In my opinion we should look to trade Bargnani amidst the current trade storm. Amir Johnson has proven to be at least worth his contract and we should explore the combo of Amir + Ed Davis. DeRozan is slowly turning into an Andre Iguodala type player and he is someone that we should keep adding pieces around.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

The move seems to indicate a lack of faith in our scouting team, as does Colangelo's freewheeling with our second round picks.

However Johnson was a draft target a few years ago. So... do we believe in our scouting or not?


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

seifer0406 said:


> In my opinion we should look to trade Bargnani amidst the current trade storm. Amir Johnson has proven to be at least worth his contract and we should explore the combo of Amir + Ed Davis. DeRozan is slowly turning into an Andre Iguodala type player and he is someone that we should keep adding pieces around.


Agree, I think many teams are interested in Bargnani, and he is quite a potent scorer (unstoppable at times). But his defense, rebounding, shot-blocking, hussle .... is not great. Portland is shopping Oden ... could something work out with a deal based on Oden+Batum? Maybe based on Iguodala+Spreights? Or take a chance on Yao's expiring deal? Or maybe let him finish the season strong, and flip him come draft time for a high lotto pick and a role player.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

That's the sort of pick you use to take some clumsy Alexis Ajinca type guy and stash him him in Europe. Hell teams dump picks like this for cash so that they don't have to give some random dude a guaranteed contract and a roster spot. Seriously Johnson has an NBA body and a skillset that might develop. If you got something better than him with that pick it'd be surprising. He really has the tools to be an excellent defender if nothing else.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

I really hope he pans out. I've talked to him a handful of times and he's a terrific person. Very hard worker. He'll have his moments where you want to slap him with his dumb decisions, but if he gets it together he's a very good player.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

james johnson reminded me of a bigger poor man's brandon roy. his ball handling and passing at his size is quite special. i'll say again that from a talent standpoint he's the best fit for our starting SF spot going forward. i love weem's game but james johnson's size and overall talent is better. james johnson with demar derozan at the 2/3 looks a lot better on paper than derozan+weems(though i would love to keep weems to backup the 2/3). i'll say again he's 6'8-6'9 and a mobile 250lbs! some ppl will say he's a tweener between a 3/4 but hey, he has the ball handling and passing game to be our 3 for the future.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

i for one was pretty high on JJ 2 years ago around draft time; even wanted the raptors to reach for him so we'll see how he ends up playing for us now. i hope he starts in the near future.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

So are we letting Money walk?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Letting Sonny walk would be a mistake in my opinion. This little back injury has probably knocked his asking price down to where its a no brainer to keep him even if he falls out of the rotation. And I doubt he does fall out the rotation. He has shown me a lot more than I ever thought he had. Before the injury he was playing great and the last couple of games he looks to be coming around again.
If BC can ever land a true star wing then I think we have a nice rotation there.

When you look at a late first round pick you are talking about a gamble, for sure, but you have to look deeper than just who was picked with the 29 or 30 pick. You get guys like Mehmet Okur, Luis Scola, Boozer, DeAndre Jordan, and on and on that we would kill to have a shot at with any pick.

The odds of JamesJohnson being any better than JoeyGraham, AntoineWright, JulianWright, Dorel Wright, Brandon Wright, James(flight)Wrhighte or any other failed wing of the last 10 years is probably even worse than the odds of landing a stud at 27+. Lets see how he plays out the final 20. Most guys look good the first few games they get a chance, especially against their old team, and then fade. Julian Wright showed a lot in his limited time earlier.

Draft picks are ways to lock in star talent without having to chase and overpay FAs who don't really want to be here or aren't really stars. I have said for years our rebuild should include buying lots of picks and praying for that star pick. You can dump them after 2 years now. And MLSE can use its money to buy those picks outside of the salary cap. So you dont' have to be a genius GM, just have good scouts.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

What you are failing to understand is that getting those late draft gems has more to do with scouting than having a bunch of late round picks. Those guys are always available if you are willing to spend the money or make the necessary moves. The hard part is to actually know what you are getting. If the Raptors have the ability to recognize late round talent then they will get late round talent even without picks. Those picks can be obtained easily, that's not the hard part.

Just look at the Blazers. With all the late round picks that they bought over the years, which ones really panned out? It's not quantity that teams should look for, it's quality.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> Here are the 29-30 pick of the last 10 years. Tell me if we really missed out.
> 
> 2010 - Lazar Hayward, Daniel Orton
> 2009 - Christian Eyenga, Toney Douglas
> ...


that tells me you have a 20% shot at an impact player.. whats the odds of Johnson turning into anything more than barely rosterable player?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

roux2dope said:


> that tells me you have a 20% shot at an impact player.. whats the odds of Johnson turning into anything more than barely rosterable player?


The point of my statement was that there are many ways for teams to acquire late first rounders. If you trust your GM's scouting ability then trust that he will see someone that's worth picking and acquire him via trades.

I mean if you want to look at the percentages, every year there are 2nd rounders that become impact players. If people look at things that way then nobody would be giving away 2nd round draft picks for minimum return.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Bad teams *shouldn't* be giving away any picks unless it is for a proven stud. Especially bad teams in markets that cannot attract FAs, and with owners that do not want to pay tax. Those teams need more picks and hope to get lucky. Good teams, and rich owners, can afford to give away more picks obviously.

You keep saying the picks are easily attainable yet every time BC has actually tried to get one he failed. He has talked about getting an extra first almost every year - never happens. And the dirty little secret out there is that he did not really want those picks because the team was too close to the tax line and MLSE would only consider that for a 'guaranteed' deep playoff run and possible championship which isn't possible. BC is not going to get himself fired over buying a couple of late firsts.

MLSE would gamble for a year on a big name guy and *maybe* pay tax 1 year, but are they willing to invest in the growth of the club over 5 years and pay tax for that period? No Chance. Rookie contracts are the only way the Raps can build the talent they need.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> You keep saying the picks are easily attainable yet every time BC has actually tried to get one he failed. He has talked about getting an extra first almost every year - never happens. And the dirty little secret out there is that he did not really want those picks because the team was too close to the tax line and MLSE would only consider that for a 'guaranteed' deep playoff run and possible championship which isn't possible. BC is not going to get himself fired over buying a couple of late firsts.
> 
> MLSE would gamble for a year on a big name guy and *maybe* pay tax 1 year, but are they willing to invest in the growth of the club over 5 years and pay tax for that period? No Chance. Rookie contracts are the only way the Raps can build the talent they need.


A couple things wrong with your post.

The Raptors are not going to be over the cap this summer so the cap situation doesn't apply this year. If BC wants to buy picks he has the means to do it.


Secondly I would like to think that our GM at least can make the decision on a money figure in the range of 1-2 mil. If he can't even do that then the Raptors should just pack it in and move somewhere else because it will never mount to anything and we're just wasting our time. What is likely the case is that either BC didn't see anyone worth buying in previous years or that our scouts failed in recognizing talent. It doesn't change the fact that late firsts and 2nd round picks are easy to acquire and that not having them doesn't make much of a difference because you can always get them if you need them.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> Secondly I would like to think that our GM at least can make the decision on a money figure in the range of 1-2 mil. If he can't even do that then the Raptors should just pack it in and move somewhere else because it will never mount to anything and we're just wasting our time. What is likely the case is that either BC didn't see anyone worth buying in previous years or that our scouts failed in recognizing talent. It doesn't change the fact that late firsts and 2nd round picks are easy to acquire and that not having them doesn't make much of a difference because you can always get them if you need them.


We have just about beaten this topic to death but you are absolutely wrong about the second point. The 'behind the draft' shows clearly proved that BC wanted an extra pick but was unable to find one to go after the player he wanted. Its just not that easy when you are chasing a specific player. And the going rate for picks has gone up recently as most teams have been asking, and getting, the 3 mill max figure. It is better to have the pick. Worst case you can usually flip it for a future 1st or 2 seconds if you really don't think any player is worth a shot.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> We have just about beaten this topic to death but you are absolutely wrong about the second point. The 'behind the draft' shows clearly proved that BC wanted an extra pick but was unable to find one to go after the player he wanted. Its just not that easy when you are chasing a specific player. And the going rate for picks has gone up recently as most teams have been asking, and getting, the 3 mill max figure. It is better to have the pick. Worst case you can usually flip it for a future 1st or 2 seconds if you really don't think any player is worth a shot.


And who did that player turn out to be? Was it David Lee or Gilbert Arenas?

In 2010 the #25 pick was swapped for cash, in 2009 the 29, 32, 34 picks were swapped for cash. I can go down the list but every year these picks are moved for minimal assets. To use one fail example to overturn this obvious fact just doesn't make any sense at all.

I'll say it again. Not only is it very unlikely for the team to acquire an impact player with the 29th/30th pick, it is very easy to obtain these picks if you really want them at a later date. You can bring this anywhere and you won't find a different opinion. You're just trying to blow something this tiny and make it into something that's suppose to be franchise changing. Makes absolutely no sense and just shows your hatred for Colangelo. I'm not someone who always defend him but this isn't a move that's necessarily a terrible move.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Just because a pick is moved for cash doesn't mean YOUR TEAM can get that pick. Other teams have interest in them too, especially if a player falls or they see a 2nd round ranked player they think has big long term potential. The fact that BC's 1 or 2 attempts have failed is far more relevant than some abstract theoretical argument you make based on stats. These were actual events. Nothing can be more true than the Raps not being able to get a pick when they wanted it.

When you own a pick you actually HAVE something. Its not theoretical or possible - its yours.

Johnson is the type of meaningless pick up you have criticized on this board routinely. We should be agreeing on that. You just don't value the potential of the pick. You keep throwing out the names Arenas and Lee like nobody else exists. Why don't you talk about guys like Kendrick Perkins, Tony Parker, Marc Gasol, DeAndre Jordan, Carlos Boozer and other guys you would be drooling to sign to big FA contracts today but would never choose to come here. That MIA pick could end up being 26-30 with BOS, SAS, LAL, DAL, and OKC having legit shots to end up ahead of MIA.

There is a *chance* we could find that kind of player with an extra first round pick if we take a home run swing and not look for the single. I don't care if that chance is only 10 or 20%. If I told you 1 in 10,000 people to walk out of the gate 5 exit at the ACC were going to be killed would you just walk out of that exit without a care? Not likely. It would be empty. The importance of the Raptors getting a star isn't life and death to the franchise, but its close.

I am just frustrated by another shortsighted move by BC that deviates from what I see as a better strategy going forward. Their is no cap limit on scouting or draft picks. A bad team with rich owners should use that advantage by investing in picks and scouting. 1st round picks only have 2 years guaranteed now, not 3. The risk is far less, especially for late firsts. Most stars explode into the league and don't take years to develop, so you can cut ties earlier and swing for the fences again.

The Lebron draft was called 3 deep that year. It turned out to be an exceptional draft. You just never know.

BC is a failed GM here in TOR. Word is the board had to stop him from blowing out his cash again to bring in Vets to chase the 8 spot this year. There has been no long term plan under BC. In fact other GMs have learned from his mistake and moved key pieces (Perk and Dwill) while they could still get solid value. Hate is way too strong a word for my feelings about BC. I see him as a proven failure here that needs to go.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

James Johnson > Sonny Weems.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

If we traded the pick for someone like antoine wright or Julian wright or Joey Graham I would be upset but this is James Johnson. I don't know where you based the assumption he's no better than the guys I already mentioned but I believe he has more potential than your typical late first round picks. He's played well so far and I hope he keeps it up.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

James Johnson's skillset is similar to Josh Smith. He's pretty good at blocking shots as a small forward and can pass the ball. Like Smith his jump shot is really inconsistent. If he can commit to playing defense then he can be a good fit in Toronto.


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

seifer0406 said:


> James Johnson's skillset is similar to Josh Smith. He's pretty good at blocking shots as a small forward and can pass the ball. Like Smith his jump shot is really inconsistent. If he can commit to playing defense then he can be a good fit in Toronto.


That's a good comparison ... a poor man's Josh Smith so far. But Johnson seems to be more aggressive and have better handles as well. Can't leap as high as Smith or shoot very well. So far, I think he's been playing better than your average late first round pick ... more like a an average mid first rounder. Colangelo's trade for late first rounder surely wasn't a terrible move, but also not a steal of a trade.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

LOL this guy was jumping all over the trade before the kid even played a game. Then he compares him to a bunch of early/mid 1st rounders and how he won't be better than them. We were going to get one of the last picks of the first round, and based on previous drafts, teams with those picks are lucky to find guys who can actually fit in their rotation. After the top ten, it's usually just a crapshoot. Get a hold of your asthma inhaler and relax.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i don't think he's a josh smith.. his athleticism isn't nearly as world class as josh smith. i still think he's a poor man's brandon roy; his passing and ball handling skills at his size is quite special and i'm sure that's what made him so attractive to scouts 2 years ago. if he can get a midrange game as good as brandon roy then he will be quite a special player. i really like his upside. you can't teach that kind of passing to players.. he just has it. here's to hoping he plays like a prime brandon roy than a boris diaw.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Brandon Roy doesn't block shots or rebound that's why the two aren't similar. James Johnson is obviously a tier or 2 or 3 below Josh Smith's talent level but the two are similar because they help you in similar areas of the game. AK47 is another guy that JJ's game is similar to. He has the tools to be a very good glue guy that provides excellent help defense. I don't know if he has the talent to be a starter but he can definitely be a solid rotation player in this league.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

worst case: jarred jefferies
best case: shane battier/ak47


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

kirk_2003 said:


> worst case: jarred jefferies
> best case: shane battier/ak47


shane battier? if james johnson plays 32min a game like shane he would be getting far superior numbers than battier this sophomore season. i don't think shane battier is his best case scenario at all. i think brandon roy with some shot blocking ability or josh smith with passing skills depending on how you look at it. kid has the tools to be pretty good.

i will be happy if he turns out to be boris diaw too.. solid bigman who knows his limitations and how to pass the rock.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

If I can add one more thing. I think it's right to criticize Colangelo for a lot of his recent moves over the past few seasons (ie not trading Bosh when we had the chance. This franchise was not going to go anywhere with him being paid as a max player anyways so why would we keep him) But overall, some deference should be given to Colangelo here. He and his scouting staff were probably aware of the type of talent that would be available at the end of the first round, and they thought that James Johnson would be as good or better than anything that we would with Miami's pick.


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