# Melo would prefer trade to Bulls or Knicks



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

> Carmelo Anthony(notes) still hopes to persuade the Denver Nuggets to trade him, preferably to either the Chicago Bulls or New York Knicks, an NBA source with knowledge of Anthony’s wishes told Yahoo! Sports.
> 
> The Knicks have limited assets to offer the Nuggets, which makes the Bulls a more appealing potential trade partner. The Bulls can offer a replacement small forward in Luol Deng(notes), as well as two young forwards in James Johnson(notes) and Taj Gibson(notes). New York officials would like to make a run at signing Anthony next summer if he were to opt to become a free agent. The Knicks will have salary-cap room with Eddy Curry’s(notes) contract expiring after the season.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Ah3.oykamt6VsIYE2qmUqLo5nYcB?slug=mc-anthonywish090810


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## Juggernaut (Jul 20, 2010)

Rose
Brewer
Melo
Boozer
Noah

Sexy team. Would give any team fits.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

:drool:


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Trade next years 1st to Portland for Rudy Fernandez.

Trade Deng(can go to a 3rd team that would offer expirings for Deng, assuming he can re-up his value during the season just like last year which got killed with his late season injury), Johnson, Gibson, Charlotte 1st, future Bulls 1st for Melo. Pray they accept.


PG-Rose/Watson
SG-Fernandez/Brewer
SF-Melo/Korver
PF-Boozer/minimum guy
C-Noah/Asik


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

No thanks, rather stick with Deng


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

someone said:


> No thanks, rather stick with Deng


Why?


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

FX™ said:


> Why?


Sure he's good but his 3 point shot AND defense is worse than just about anyone on this team.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Carlos Boozer's defence is better than Melo?


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

someone said:


> No thanks, rather stick with Deng


:wtf:


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

FX™ said:


> Carlos Boozer's defence is better than Melo?


I would say so, but eh, maybe it's just me. :whiteflag:


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

I don't think so, if Carmelo could get it drilled into his head that he needs to give it all night in night out on defence, then I think he could be an okay defender. He's shown glimpses, it's just whether he can consistently do it.

A foursome of Rose/Melo/Boozer/Noah is something you can't pass up on if you ask me.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

That's a strange thing to say. Is Deng's defense or 3pt shot any better? Deng doesn't even have a 3pt shot.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

garnett said:


> That's a strange thing to say. Is Deng's defense or 3pt shot any better? Deng doesn't even have a 3pt shot.


Actually, yes and yes.

Deng's defense is absolutely better. Seems like nobody outside of Chicago seems to realize what a good defender Deng is.

His 3-pt shooting is quite simply an underused weapon, but when he takes it they go in. They past three seasons, he's shot 36%, 40%, and 38%. Sure it's low volume but it can't be mere luck that he's been over 35% for three straight seasons. 

He sucked at 3's before that because of poor shot selection and just being a young player who hadn't fully developed it yet.

Melo by contrast shoots the 3 more often but has been less accurate. 

Over their careers, Deng and Melo have similar 3-pt % (which doesn't tell the whole story but is all we have right now).

Edit: BTW, I am in no way implying Deng is equal to or better than Melo. Quite the opposite. Deng is undoubtedly limited by his inability to create his own shot and by what is currently very average quickness. If he had those things, he'd be an all-around superstar!


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

Repeat after me:

I'm not going to follow this on twitter.

I'm not going to follow this on twitter.

I'm not going to follow this on twitter.

Rinse and repeat.

Que sera, sera!


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## JonH818 (Aug 31, 2006)

Denver wants Joakim Noah

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5550421


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## easy (Mar 28, 2005)

if to get Melo we trade Deng, Taj and JJ + Melo resigns ... yeah do it. If Denver wants Noah + Deng and fillers, that needs alooooot of thinking but i probably wouldnt do it. Thats a bit too much in my opinion


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I'm not too high on trading Noah away for Melo.

Yeah Melo is better obviously, but Noah is a huge advantage against a team like Miami. And very much required against Howard and the Magic.

Plus, I really want to see what Boozer & Noah can do together. They supplement each other so well on the court.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Here's hoping Melo says he won't extend if the Bulls can't keep Noah.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Even for one year I would trade Deng for Melo any damn day of the week! Melo would at the very least make us a title contender this year and even if he decides to walk next season we atleast got rid of Dengs contract. 

The only way I would include Noah in the trade is only if Melo signed a long term deal.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

yodurk said:


> I'm not too high on trading Noah away for Melo.
> 
> Yeah Melo is better obviously, but Noah is a huge advantage against a team like Miami. And very much required against Howard and the Magic.


Melo would be an even bigger advantage over those teams, you think those teams even think about guarding Luol Deng, at least with Melo the Bulls have another player on the court who they absolutely have to double team when he gets hot. Noah honestly will not make that much of a difference against the Magic or Heat, sure his rebounding would be valuable but nobody is going to stop Howard especially not Noah and the Heat are a team that will not try to score using their 5 so honestly Melo would be much more valuable.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

First off I love Melo's game. His scoring and the way he does it is beautiful. 

That being said I would *hate* to trade Noah and Deng for Melo.

For one I think it would be a terrible teammate for Rose's continued growth. Rose can take over games with the best of them, but his problem was always his willingness to defer to teammates. As last year progressed the thing I noticed more than anything was how much more Rose was attacking as the season went on. To me that was his biggest and most important area of growth.

I think if we add melo to the mix, that we would see a huge regression in this area. And we would get a lot more of the "passive Rose" which is a role he is completeley unsuited for.

Noah and Deng really compliment Rose perfectly. Both will play off of him on O and also make huge contributions in rebounding and Defense. Melo won't. 

IMO we already have enough scoring on our roster.

Rose 20
Boozer 20
Deng 15
Brewer 10
Noah 10

That is a very loose and conservative estimate. But still that's 75 points out of our starting lineup. If we can get our greatly improved bench to chip in 25 we have a 100 point per game squad. A 100 ppg squad that is almost guarunteed to be the best rebounding team in the NBA and likeley and elite Defensive team.

I'm sorry but I just would hate to regress rose, and lose a huge chunk of our defense and rebounding in order to add Melo (more offense).


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> First off I love Melo's game. His scoring and the way he does it is beautiful.
> 
> That being said I would *hate* to trade Noah and Deng for Melo.
> 
> ...


So wait, Rose playing next to a truly great player = Him regressing as a player? 

Chauncey Billups dint regress as a player, JR Smith a guy we got rid for nothing actually looked like a player in Denver also.

I just dont see how Rose is better off playing next to an injury prone center who cant create offense for himself and SF who is slightly above average who has injury issues, as opposed to playing next to a guy who can drop a 50 point game on any night. To be honest the Bulls have a much better chance of finding the next Noah or Deng than they do finding the next Carmelo Anthony.


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## Ragingbull33 (Apr 10, 2005)

I doubt we land Melo and I'm not sure I'd want to since I read somewhere recently (probably ESPN) that his dedication to bball has decreased dramatically. Any dela for Melo would have to return us a good backup or decent starting center. Chris Andersen?


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Melo would be an even bigger advantage over those teams, you think those teams even think about guarding Luol Deng, at least with Melo the Bulls have another player on the court who they absolutely have to double team when he gets hot. Noah honestly will not make that much of a difference against the Magic or Heat, sure his rebounding would be valuable but nobody is going to stop Howard especially not Noah and the Heat are a team that will not try to score using their 5 so honestly Melo would be much more valuable.


Frankly I think the Bulls' rebounding is the one chance we have to beat Miami. 

They seem quite vulnerable in that area, whereas the Bulls as currently constructed have THE best rebounding team in the league, IMO.

That will mean ALOT of offensive rebounds (2nd chances) for the Bulls and very few for opponents.

If we trade Noah, we immediately lose that advantage. That's a big worry.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> So wait, Rose playing next to a truly great player = Him regressing as a player?
> 
> Chauncey Billups dint regress as a player, JR Smith a guy we got rid for nothing actually looked like a player in Denver also..


Maybe you dont have the same impression I do but all to often I have seen Rose be the type of pg that dribbles up the court and then pases to the wing, without really doing anything. Rose is all to willing to defer to other players. (evidenced by his lack of production on team USA). We finally got Rose to really buy into him being "the man" and once he did he was an elite player in the NBA.

I think this team is built very well for him. He will still be the man but has guys around him that will compliment him now.

You bring Melo in and I can already see Rose deferring to him. Rose dribbles down throws it to melo and thats it. 

Rose is much different then Billups. Billups is a spot up shooter that plays a much more controlled, slower, and physical game then Rose. It makes sense that Billups plays well with Melo. In no way does that mean Rose will. 2 totally different players and mentall makeup.



> I just dont see how Rose is better off playing next to an injury prone center who cant create offense for himself and SF who is slightly above average who has injury issues, as opposed to playing next to a guy who can drop a 50 point game on any night. To be honest the Bulls have a much better chance of finding the next Noah or Deng than they do finding the next Carmelo Anthony


I don't think this is in response to my post. Because I clearly discussed why we don't need more scoring but how we would soreley miss rebounding and D. But I fail to see our need for a center that "creates for himself". With Rose and Boozer already on the team.


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

caseyrh said:


> Maybe you dont have the same impression I do but all to often I have seen Rose be the type of pg that dribbles up the court and then pases to the wing, without really doing anything. Rose is all to willing to defer to other players. (evidenced by his lack of production on team USA). We finally got Rose to really buy into him being "the man" and once he did he was an elite player in the NBA.
> 
> I think this team is built very well for him. He will still be the man but has guys around him that will compliment him now.
> 
> ...


With the current team, i am not sure if we can/will win a championship with the ever improving Miami, Los Angeles, and Orlando. We have to do something to counter the other teams. How good can Rose get? Lebron level? Kobe level? I highly doubt it. I would trade for Melo if the opportunity presents.


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## TheDarkPrince (May 13, 2006)

someone said:


> No thanks, rather stick with Deng


Why?!


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## TheDarkPrince (May 13, 2006)

JonH818 said:


> Denver wants Joakim Noah
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5550421


Good for them, too bad they have no chance in hell of getting him. Denver if they are smart will move Melo, before he bolts like Bosh and Lebron and then they won't get anything. If they won't go for Deng, Johnson, Gibson, I say we just wait until the end of next season and try to sign him.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

PD said:


> With the current team, i am not sure if we can/will win a championship with the ever improving Miami, Los Angeles, and Orlando. We have to do something to counter the other teams. How good can Rose get? Lebron level? Kobe level? I highly doubt it. I would trade for Melo if the opportunity presents.


I dont think this is a good arguement against my post. For two reasons:
1.) This years team is very different from last years and much improved. So it's not like you can point to last year and say. "hey we only won x amount of games last year how will we get over the hump without making a big change?" Because we did make a big change and made dramatic improvements in our two biggest problem areas: interior scoring and depth. The results of that are to be determined...
2.) My point was that I think our team is better with Deng and Noah then it would be with Melo. So you won't sway me by simply saying we need to add carmelo to have a shot at a title. Because I think said trade gives us less of a chance.

Anyways I also think it is silly to point out that Rose won't be as good as Lebron or Kobe. Because by that logic we wouldnt have a chance with Melo anyways. Because a team built with all of it's hopes pinned to Rose+Melo+Boozer Is never going to be comparable to Lebron+Wade+Bosh. Lebron>>>>Melo, Wade>>Rose, Bosh>Boozer.

The only chance we have at beating a healthy Miami team is if we can beat them in a way not soleley based on talent. Like Rebounding, Defense, and team Chemistry. Thats our shot. Not: "damn they got 3 really good players, lets build a team like them but with 3 worse players."


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## easy (Mar 28, 2005)

caseyrh said:


> The only chance we have at beating a healthy Miami team is if we can beat them in a way not soleley based on talent. Like Rebounding, Defense, and team Chemistry. Thats our shot. Not: "damn they got 3 really good players, lets build a team like them but with 3 worse players."


I agree with this. Thats why I think our best chance of beating Miami is showing as much loyalty to our players as possible, keeping them away from rumors and trade possibilities. The Bulls need to really connect as a team and by adding Booz, Brewer and Korver to the good group on Noah, Rose, Deng, Taj really helps. 

Melo IS a big upgrade over Deng, talent wise, but if getting Melo in the expense of team chemistry and/or Noah I don't think its a good idea


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

easy said:


> I agree with this. Thats why I think our best chance of beating Miami is showing as much loyalty to our players as possible, keeping them away from rumors and trade possibilities. The Bulls need to really connect as a team and by adding Booz, Brewer and Korver to the good group on Noah, Rose, Deng, Taj really helps.
> 
> Melo IS a big upgrade over Deng, talent wise, but if getting Melo in the expense of team chemistry and/or Noah I don't think its a good idea


I also agree for the most part.

This is really the same way Detroit won their title back in 2004. Just incredible balance and chemistry. They didn't have a single star on that team but they also didn't have a single weakness as a team. And they knew how to play perfectly together.

However, I'll change my tune if Denver caves in, realizes Melo is leaving next summer, and accepts a package of Gibson + Deng + multiple 1st rounders. THAT is a trade I'll do, and that reason being is that:

- Rose
- Brewer/Korver
- Melo
- Boozer
- Noah

...is a flat-out nasty starting 5, and IMO an equally talented and MORE BALANCED team than Miami. 

The key is to get Melo without losing Rose, Boozer, or Noah.


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## easy (Mar 28, 2005)

yodurk said:


> The key is to get Melo without losing Rose, Boozer, or Noah.


If Denver caves in and accepts that trade, Melo resigns with us and accepts the team concept Ill do it on a heart beat. That starting five is a killer. I really want to see Miami loose to the Bulls in the ECF and Lebron, Wade and Bosh crying on the sidelines :headbang:


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## Firefight (Jul 2, 2010)

People need to stop drinking the Homer Kool-Aid...

Fans tend to fall in love with their own players and over value them so much. 

To say you wouldn't trade Noah for Melo is a joke. I'm a HUGE Noah fan. I believe he is one of the better young centers in the league and puts the team first. He is a hard worker that can defend and block and rebound. Because of the limited centers in the league, his value has to be even higher...
With that said, you have a chance to land a Top 10 player in his prime. But you don't do it because you have to include Noah? Just doesn't make much sense to me. Look at this from Denver's stand point. If you were a Nuggets fan, how would you feel about giving up Carmelo Anthony for Noah, some fillers and picks? No way. 
Now of course Denver is in a bad spot because they essentially have to get what they can for Melo because if they don't trade him he walks for nothing at the end of the year. But, if the Bulls don't make a good offer, you know someone else will...

The Bulls/Paxson has has done enough of falling head over heals for their guys (Deng/Hinrich/Naoh, etc) ... you don't win rings with hard-working role players...You win them with Stars. Is Rose enough with good role players? I don't think so... but add Melo to Boozer and Rose and Brewer and Korver and you have a much better chance...


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

TheDarkPrince said:


> Good for them, too bad they have no chance in hell of getting him. Denver if they are smart will move Melo, before he bolts like Bosh and Lebron and then they won't get anything. If they won't go for Deng, Johnson, Gibson, I say we just wait until the end of next season and try to sign him.


The Nuggets are better off with nothing than Deng's contract (since any team signing him will likely work out a sign & trade leaving the Nuggets with a valuable trade exception). And, unless you expect Anthony to take a smaller contract than Deng's, or expect the Bulls to decline the options on Rose & Noah, you won't be signing Carmelo this summer.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Firefight said:


> People need to stop drinking the Homer Kool-Aid...
> 
> Fans tend to fall in love with their own players and over value them so much.
> 
> ...


Well, first off, if you believe what Sam Smith has to say, the Nuggets aren't even considering any offers for Melo right now anyways. And the Bulls are very close to extending Joakim Noah: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors/post/Bulls-and-Joakim-Noah-working-on-extension?urn=nba-261117

So, this trade isn't actually on the table, making this discussion completely irrelevant anyways.

BUT, since we're just dealing in hypotheticals I'm happy to keep going along here.

Let me just say, this is not [just] homerism. It's a legit basketball concern. I don't see anyone saying Noah is a better player than Melo or makes a bigger impact, in general. If you're starting a team from scratch, you take Melo 100% of the time.

However, basketball does not work in a way such that the team equals the sum of its parts. What happens to the Bulls if they have 3 big-time scorers (Rose, Boozer, Melo), but nothing else to support them? You've gotta have rebounders and defenders, and guys willing to be unselfish.

I saw a stat recently that showed nearly every title winner in the past 20 years has been top 10 defensively. The only exception was one of the Shaq-Kobe tandems (and I suspect that was more laziness during the regular season due to their pure dominance). The vast majority of those teams were top 3 in team defense.

I'm not convinced it'll be so easy to fill the center position with a good reliable defensive/rebounding big man if we lose Noah. Asik is too uncertain. And guys like Brendan Haywood or Samuel Dalembert get $10M bucks a season.

You might rebute this and say that Rose-Melo-Boozer would be so potent, we could get a D-Leaguer in there and be fine. If so, I completely disagree. How is Rose-Melo-Boozer any better than Wade-Lebron-Bosh? Answer: They aren't. So, our only chance is to maintain our advantage over them, which is size, rebounding, and interior defense. Noah is CRITICAL to that. 

Melo is clearly the better player, but our defense and rebounding drops dramatically without him. Perhaps more dramatically than the offensive impact Melo would bring. 

If this doesn't get us past Miami, then what's the point?


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

By the way, I reserve to right to change my opinion depending on what scenarios could play out.

If we get a 3rd team worked into this for example and net back Melo + a Kendrick Perkins type of center (great defender, not too expensive), then we're talking.

Problem is, where do we get that Perkins type of center? You can't win jack in the NBA without a good reliable defense in the paint, no matter how many 20-point scorers you throw out there. (This is reason #1 why I think the Lakers will beat Miami this season; Miami can't win it all with Ilgauskas and Joel Anthony as their defensive anchors).


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

yodurk said:


> By the way, I reserve to right to change my opinion depending on what scenarios could play out.
> 
> If we get a 3rd team worked into this for example and net back Melo + a Kendrick Perkins type of center (great defender, not too expensive), then we're talking.
> 
> Problem is, where do we get that Perkins type of center? You can't win jack in the NBA without a good reliable defense in the paint, no matter how many 20-point scorers you throw out there. (This is reason #1 why I think the Lakers will beat Miami this season; Miami can't win it all with Ilgauskas and Joel Anthony as their defensive anchors).


Durk makes heap big sense!


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## BenDengGo (Feb 1, 2004)

i dont think melo is that much better than deng to warrant noah as a throw in to get him.
yes melo is better than deng but for what we need him he's a solid fit.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> Maybe you dont have the same impression I do but all to often I have seen Rose be the type of pg that dribbles up the court and then pases to the wing, without really doing anything. Rose is all to willing to defer to other players. (evidenced by his lack of production on team USA). We finally got Rose to really buy into him being "the man" and once he did he was an elite player in the NBA.


I'm actually with you on this 100%, I have posted countless threads and post's about Rose's potential to score that is being stunted by at the time Ben Gordon and Salmons but it became pretty clear last year that he got over it and he became the man and really took it to another level in the playoff's. That being said as talented as he is I just dont think Rose is capable of dropping a 50 point game just yet. 



> I think this team is built very well for him. He will still be the man but has guys around him that will compliment him now.


It does but it still lacks a true ballz out scoring machine. Lakers have Kobe, Miami has a handful of them, the Celtics are done but had a couple of guy's who could on occasion could drop 40 on any given night. 



> You bring Melo in and I can already see Rose deferring to him. Rose dribbles down throws it to melo and thats it.


But what if he doesn't? What if Rose embraces the duo and becomes star 1a? IF Rose embraces what the two of them can do together the team is much better, but if he defers and becomes a 15 and 8 PG then yeah its a negative, but Rose has shown that he can be the man. His lack of scoring production in the Worlds is a bit baffling but maybe its a role that coach K wanted out of him and hes just doing what is best for the team.



> Rose is much different then Billups. Billups is a spot up shooter that plays a much more controlled, slower, and physical game then Rose. It makes sense that Billups plays well with Melo. In no way does that mean Rose will. 2 totally different players and mentall makeup.


True but if Rose regresses then its on him, there are no questions about his physical talents or abilities, so if Rose stops being a great player because another great player is playing next to him then honestly its a huge negative on Rose's game. 

Rose is too talented, too big, too fast to not be a dominant PG. The pair can work wonders if Rose doesn't take a step back.


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## Firefight (Jul 2, 2010)

yodurk said:


> *If this doesn't get us past Miami, then what's the point?*


I don't think Melo, Rose, Boozer and supporting cast gets us past Miami, but I also don't think Noah, Rose, Boozer gets it done either. 

So moving forward, who is easier to replace. Noah, who averaged 10ppg/11rpg/1.4blk or Anthony who averaged 28ppg/6.6rpg/1.3stl. I think it's going to be a lot easier to find a 11/10 guy who hustles then a player capable of being a top3 scorer in the NBA.

Assuming either direction we go we aren't good enough to beat Miami, I think I'd rather build with Anthony then Noah.


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## easy (Mar 28, 2005)

Actually its Anthony, Rose and Boozer or Rose, Boozer, Noah, Deng (at 18ppg + 7 rebs) and Taj from the bench. Although Melo is really good I think i take my chances with the 2nd one.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

easy said:


> Actually its Anthony, Rose and Boozer or Rose, Boozer, Noah, Deng (at 18ppg + 7 rebs) and Taj from the bench. Although Melo is really good I think i take my chances with the 2nd one.


^Exactly.

Ive been labled a "Deng lover" by quite a few people on here. And I really think that is silly. THe simple fact is the guy is a good starter in the NBA. He is young, contributes well above average in every major aspect of the game... Rebounding, Defense, and Offense. Best of all he plays his offensive game mostly of the ball. (slashing, shooting, fastbreaks...etc). Meaning he is basically a perfect fit as a third option.

And yet for some reason because he might be overpayed by a couple mil a year, there is a huge portion of our fan-base that acts like he is a completeley worthless basketball player. Like the dude should not even be mentioned as a legitamate part of our team. He averaged basically 18 and 7 with very good D! How many players in the NBA do that? He is a key part of our team and should not be wholly overlooked because someone might think he is over payed by a couple mil. It's crazy.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

easy said:


> Actually its Anthony, Rose and Boozer or Rose, Boozer, Noah, Deng (at 18ppg + 7 rebs) and Taj from the bench. Although Melo is really good I think i take my chances with the 2nd one.


Agreed


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> ^Exactly.
> 
> Ive been labled a "Deng lover" by quite a few people on here. And I really think that is silly. THe simple fact is the guy is a good starter in the NBA. He is young, contributes well above average in every major aspect of the game... Rebounding, Defense, and Offense. Best of all he plays his offensive game mostly of the ball. (slashing, shooting, fastbreaks...etc). Meaning he is basically a perfect fit as a third option.
> 
> And yet for some reason because he might be overpayed by a couple mil a year, there is a huge portion of our fan-base that acts like he is a completeley worthless basketball player. Like the dude should not even be mentioned as a legitamate part of our team. He averaged basically 18 and 7 with very good D! How many players in the NBA do that? He is a key part of our team and should not be wholly overlooked because someone might think he is over payed by a couple mil. It's crazy.


As usual...a priceless comments (like one of my favorite moderators likes to say):clap:

Casey, again you are missing the point! No one even trying to compare Deng vs. Melo...so please don’t confuse the subject. The issue was related to Noah vs. Melo comparison. 

Thanks God, by now it is clear to everyone that *Deng and his contact is Bulls modern days disaster ! * Deng easily overpaid by $4-5M/year...the least to say. For example, we could have a better services from J Salmons just for app. $7.5 M/year.

For some teams, wasting $4-6M per years on bad contracts may not be a big deal. But it is definitely not for Chicago. Our greedy owner JR, constantly makes us to “suffer” because of that mistake ("thanks" to Pax, Scottie and VDN judgments) !!! 

For example, we lost a center - B. Miller just in order to safe $0.8M...and ended up with almost “0” resources at one of the most important positions on the court. 

Boston in mean time (who is truly seeking a championship and respects its fans accordingly), added Shaq ($1.3M), JO ($5.5)- two more Gladiators to their six big man group. 

In comparison, our "genius" in front office did replace the strong and reliable Miller (who signed $4.3M /year contract with Rockets) with retired 38 years old senior citizen PF - Kurt Thomas for $ 1.8M and not ready fragile turk for $1.7M...what a freaking nonsense !? 

BTW, loosing the best guard defender (Kirk) just to safe $0.3M was also one of this off season’s “brilliant” moves.

*IMO, we are cursed for at least four more seasons or until Deng is gone, whatever comes first !!!*

P.S. Dornado please check the grammar and report the errors at EBD. Don’t forget to bill your time.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Bulls96 said:


> As usual...a priceless comments (like one of my favorite moderators likes to say):clap:
> 
> Casey, again you are missing the point! No one even trying to compare Deng vs. Melo...so please don’t confuse the subject. The issue was related to Noah vs. Melo comparison.
> 
> ...



1. Stop the unnecessary call-outs.

2. I don't understand your salary numbers. They don't seen to line up with reality.

3. Shaq and J.O are "gladiators?" Do you have a time machine to 2001? Can I borrow it? That sounds nifty.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Bulls96 said:


> As usual...a priceless comments (like one of my favorite moderators likes to say):clap:
> 
> Casey, again you are missing the point! No one even trying to compare Deng vs. Melo...so please don’t confuse the subject. The issue was related to Noah vs. Melo comparison.
> 
> ...


The thing I always wonder about you and DaBabyBullz is this: When you guys read each others posts do either of you question whether or not it is a good thing to support each other. 

I mean how does DaBabyBullz read your nonsense, and not think "man that post is retarded. Why would someone writing sheer nonsense, always agree with me?"

Just curious. Thanks, I will ignore the rest of your......Letters, colors, numbers, and words.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> ... will ignore the rest of your......Letters, colors, numbers, and words.


Of course you will ... because you have no answers.
Plus you are already exceeded amount of idiotic posts for this month.

P.S. As one of my favorite moderator likes to say, stop the unnecessary call-outs.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> 1. Stop the unnecessary call-outs.
> 
> 2. I don't understand your salary numbers. They don't seen to line up with reality.
> 
> 3. Shaq and J.O are "gladiators?" Do you have a time machine to 2001? Can I borrow it? That sounds nifty.


What exactly you want to verify ?! What is your “reality “...rumor that you like to hear or what is contract amount between Miller and Houston ?!

Internet is filled with different information...just go to the top of the page and type the subject in the “search” area and hit Enter. You will surprise how fast you can get a response. 

BTW, your comments are always so priceless.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Bulls96 said:


> What exactly you want to verify ?! What is your “reality “...rumor that you like to hear or what is contract amount between Miller and Houston ?!
> 
> Internet is filled with different information...just go to the top of the page and type the subject in the “search” area and hit Enter. You will surprise how fast you can get a response.
> 
> BTW, your comments are always so priceless.



Stop the personal attacks, please. I should not have to warn you repetitively. At some point, this will earn you a vacation. I really don't mind vehement disagreement, but calling people "idiotic" and whatnot is unnecessary. 

Casey, the same applies to you.

As to your salary numbers, your angry missive misses the point. I wasn't saying your salary numbers individually were incorrect, but rather meant that we didn't let Brad walk to "save" money, nor did we with Hinrich. So that discussion is thinking about the issue wrong. Hinrich was dished to make a run at the big free agents, pure and simple. Reinsdorf has said unequivocally he regrets having traded Hinrich since they struck out on those big names.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

The truth is, the Bulls will be closer to winning a title with Carmelo Anthony than it would with Deng and Noah. This fear that Noah's rebounding and Deng's intangibles would be extremely difficult to replace is just silly. If you have an opportunity to trade for a top 5 player in the NBA you freaking do it, an organization can alway's find guys that do what Noah and Deng do. Finding guy's that are similar to Noah and Deng would take some work but its a hell of a lot easier to find those guy's than it would to find a Melo. 

Just off the top of my head for guys that can replace Noah and Deng.

Kendrick Perkins is an unrestricted FA next season, maybe you make a move for him if things totally fall apart in Boston. 
Boris Diaw is a guy who we can look at next season as well. 
Nene is also available next season. 
Shane Battier
Marc Gasol is restricted but I would honestly trade Noah for him straight up
David West

Heck I think Greg Oden is up next year as well. 

The point is, there is no reason to be afraid of letting go of Noah and Deng. They will not win a title this year as is and they will not win a title this year with Melo minus Deng and Noah but Melo on this team gives us a better chance to win a title in the next couple of seasons because we can add players similar to Noah and Deng, we will not be able to find a player similar to Melo to add to a team with Noah and Deng.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

^Jay Cutler would like to speak with you.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> The truth is, the Bulls will be closer to winning a title with Carmelo Anthony than it would with Deng and Noah. This fear that Noah's rebounding and Deng's intangibles would be extremely difficult to replace is just silly. If you have an opportunity to trade for a top 5 player in the NBA you freaking do it, an organization can alway's find guys that do what Noah and Deng do. Finding guy's that are similar to Noah and Deng would take some work but its a hell of a lot easier to find those guy's than it would to find a Melo.
> 
> Just off the top of my head for guys that can replace Noah and Deng.
> 
> ...


I'm not worried about replacing anything in Deng's skill-set if we trade him for Melo. All of the center replacements you list though would be pretty good downgrades from Noah. Also, if we can't offer anyone more than the MLE, so bear that in mind when you're thinking finding a replacement would be easy.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> I'm not worried about replacing anything in Deng's skill-set if we trade him for Melo. All of the center replacements you list though would be pretty good downgrades from Noah. Also, if we can't offer anyone more than the MLE, so bear that in mind when you're thinking finding a replacement would be easy.


Players have taken less money to sign with title contenders so its not impossible IMO. 

Perkins is a better man defender than Noah, while not as active on the boards I think his man defense would be very valuable to the Bulls. 

Marc Gasol is an upgrade.

Nene is a downgrade but lets be honest people, Noah is a good player not great so its not like we are losing a lot if we replace him.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Stop the personal attacks, please. I should not have to warn you repetitively. At some point, this will earn you a vacation. I really don't mind vehement disagreement, but calling people "idiotic" and whatnot is unnecessary.
> 
> Casey, the same applies to you.
> 
> As to your salary numbers, your angry missive misses the point. I wasn't saying your salary numbers individually were incorrect, but rather meant that we didn't let Brad walk to "save" money, nor did we with Hinrich. So that discussion is thinking about the issue wrong. Hinrich was dished to make a run at the big free agents, pure and simple. Reinsdorf has said unequivocally he regrets having traded Hinrich since they struck out on those big names.


Once again, you took my retaliation post as an aggressive attack.

It is so easy to check who has started the latest quarrel...and moderator should be more objective in his judgment. 

Anyway, it was so apparent to millions of Bulls fans that we let Brad walk just to save money, but you. I don’t know what to say to convince you about it. Initially it was rumor that Brad wants at least $5M and we can not afford that…then $5M turned to be only $4.4M.

Same thing about KT. It was a rumor that we will sign him for $1.3M (vet. min.)... but in reality the senior citizen did cost us $1.85M 

Turk , according to rumors supposed to be purchased for $1M...in reality he did cost us $1.75M

In summary , we preferred to have KT and turk – combined for $3.6M instead of paying Miller $4.4

So why do think Pax/JR preferred that option instead of keeping Miller ?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Players have taken less money to sign with title contenders so its not impossible IMO.
> 
> Perkins is a better man defender than Noah, while not as active on the boards I think his man defense would be very valuable to the Bulls.
> 
> ...



Noah is one of the top centers in the league. We are losing a lot if we lose him. You're right though that he is less than "great." Of course, 95% of players fit that description.

Perkins is a downgrade, but yeah, he is a nice big bodied man defender, so he would fill the role well. I don't see Marc Gasol as an upgrade. Nene is a significant downgrade. 

I also think it's risky to think "hopefully we'll attract ringchasers and therefore we don't need to have the money to pay these guys market value." That's dangerous business.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Bulls96 said:


> Once again, you took my retaliation post as an aggressive attack.
> 
> It is so easy to check who has started the latest quarrel...and moderator should be more objective in his judgment.
> 
> ...



Give me a break. You do realize I can actually read the thread and see that you were the first one to come in and start calling out other posters, right? I don't think "retaliation" means what you think it means.

It was apparent to "millions" of Bulls fans that we let Brad walk to save money? Come on. The Bulls would only be saving money if they didn't use their cap space to sign other players, but they did. They didn't want to sign Brad for the amount he was paid, sure. You'll notice the vast majority of people thought his deal was too expensive and that it was a wise move not to try to beat/match it. But the Bulls did go out and sign other players. So, what you say is "saving" money is really just allocation. That seems pretty basic.

I note you also seem to have backed off the idea that Kirk was moved to "save" money. So it appears we agree on that, at least.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Noah is one of the top centers in the league. We are losing a lot if we lose him. You're right though that he is less than "great." Of course, 95% of players fit that description.
> 
> Perkins is a downgrade, but yeah, he is a nice big bodied man defender, so he would fill the role well. I don't see Marc Gasol as an upgrade. Nene is a significant downgrade.
> 
> I also think it's risky to think "hopefully we'll attract ringchasers and therefore we don't need to have the money to pay these guys market value." That's dangerous business.


You are overvaluing Noah, if hes one of the top centers in the league than so is Perkins. 

Noah rebounds more but Perkins is flat out the better interior defender which is very valuable. 

Nene is a downgrade but a significant one, I honestly dont think hes a good fit for our team but off the top of my head hes not a terrible replacement, especially considering that hes a better offensive player than Noah. 

Gasol has way more potential than Noah, Gasol could easily be a beast on a better team. 

The drop off from Howard, Lopez and Kaman is a pretty steep one, Noah is a good player but hes not one of these un replaceable players.


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## easy (Mar 28, 2005)

thebizkit69u said:


> The drop off from Howard, Lopez and Kaman is a pretty steep one, Noah is a good player but hes not one of these un replaceable players.


Noah is replacable in numbers. You can certainly find a lot of centers that average the same or more than what Noah averages, for a good price aswell. But how easy is it to find players (not just centers) that have the numbers WITH the dedication, heart, emotion and leadership that Noah brings to the table, that doesnt show on paper? 

I want Melo on the Bulls but not in the expense of Noah. Im happy to trade Deng, Taj, JJ and every draft pick in the next 100 years for Melo. 

Im happy that the team is now trying to work out an extension for him. Now if they could find another good SG that has a 3pt shot ...


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> You are overvaluing Noah, if hes one of the top centers in the league than so is Perkins.
> 
> Noah rebounds more but Perkins is flat out the better interior defender which is very valuable.



Perkins is older, has been in the league for 7 years, and only averages 10.1 and 7.6. He is a better interior defender, but an inferior in rebounding, speed, help defense, ball handling, shooting, dribbling, and passing. Though still a good player, he is markedly worse than Noah.



> Nene is a downgrade but a significant one, I honestly dont think hes a good fit for our team but off the top of my head hes not a terrible replacement, especially considering that hes a better offensive player than Noah.


I agree Nene is a significant downgrade. He has worse rebounding ability and is considerably older. He is a marginally better scorer than Noah.



> Gasol has way more potential than Noah, Gasol could easily be a beast on a better team.


The fact that Gasol plays on a terrible team should inflate his numbers, not deflate them.



> The drop off from Howard, Lopez and Kaman is a pretty steep one, Noah is a good player but hes not one of these un replaceable players.


I agree he is not as good as Howard (gee, the best C in the league). Lopez is also better. Kaman is also a better player. What does that prove? Do you think Howard, Lopez, or Kaman would be easily obtainable? Of course not. 

The idea that Noah is easily replaceable is lunacy. The Bulls have not had a center this good in my lifetime. If they were so easy to come by, you'd think in the last 30 years they would've had someone as good, right? Noah is a top 10 center in the league, and players like that are not easily acquired. A skilled true center is probably the most rare commodity in the NBA. 

None of this is to say that Noah is as good or as valuable as Carmelo. It's clueless, though, to act as though Noah is just a run-of-the-mill guy who can be replaced easily. He has shown marked improvement over his short NBA career and long-term probably figures to be a top 5 player at his position. He might look like him, but he's not a stiff/hustle guy like Varejeo. He is a skilled, valuable player.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

easy said:


> Noah is replacable in numbers. You can certainly find a lot of centers that average the same or more than what Noah averages, for a good price aswell.



Blatantly false. There is, count 'em, 1 center in the NBA that averages more rebounds per game (2 if you count David Lee as a center). There are some that score better, but there certainly aren't many that you could "find for a good price."



> But how easy is it to find players (not just centers) that have the numbers WITH the dedication, heart, emotion and leadership that Noah brings to the table, that doesnt show on paper?
> 
> I want Melo on the Bulls but not in the expense of Noah. Im happy to trade Deng, Taj, JJ and every draft pick in the next 100 years for Melo.
> 
> Im happy that the team is now trying to work out an extension for him. Now if they could find another good SG that has a 3pt shot ...



I agree Noah's leadership qualities are important, especially on this team. But keep in mind the actual quantifiable production is good, too!


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## easy (Mar 28, 2005)

jnrjr79 said:


> Blatantly false. There is, count 'em, 1 center in the NBA that averages more rebounds per game (2 if you count David Lee as a center). There are some that score better, but there certainly aren't many that you could "find for a good price."


That came out wrong. What I meant is, its not too hard to find a player that averages the same numbers with another player for a certain team. 

To give an example, lets say you replace James from the Cavaliers with Granger. Granger is cheaper than James, so a better price and if you put him on the same system as Lebron he might average close to the numbers Lebron averaged. Cheap example but this is what I was trying to say. You can replace numbers but not the character and importance of a player to a team


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

easy said:


> That came out wrong. What I meant is, its not too hard to find a player that averages the same numbers with another player for a certain team.
> 
> To give an example, lets say you replace James from the Cavaliers with Granger. Granger is cheaper than James, so a better price and if you put him on the same system as Lebron he might average close to the numbers Lebron averaged. Cheap example but this is what I was trying to say. You can replace numbers but not the character and importance of a player to a team



Ah, gotcha! It is a good point.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

The simple truth is that neither Deng nor Noah are even remoteley close to being easly replaceable. This is something i hear fairly frequently but the fact is there are only handful of players that are not superstars that can put up their all around production. If you factor in age you will find their is almost nobody who could reasonably replace ther production and fit on our team.

The funny thing is that Perkins and Battier are the types of guys that you might try and replace them with. And that is the whole point really. Far worse players that are much older. 

The other obvious truth is that Melo is not a top 5 player in the league. If you look into that dudes numbers you will realize he is not the most efficient scorer. Then if you factor that he is only a mediocre rebounder and a poor defender, you begin to realize that it is quite clear that Melo is more of a volume scorer that's production is helped by his teams unusually fast pace of play. I love his game but he is not at this elite level that some of you are making him out to be.

But I don't want to look into this more because it looks like Bulls management agrees with me, and is not interested in trading Noah.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Perkins is older, has been in the league for 7 years, and only averages 10.1 and 7.6. He is a better interior defender, but an inferior in rebounding, speed, help defense, ball handling, shooting, dribbling, and passing. Though still a good player, he is markedly worse than Noah.


Well I will look at it this way, if we think Miami is the main rival to a title then I would rate Noah over Perkins but if we feel that Orlando would be the bigger opponent then I would go with Perkins. 



> The fact that Gasol plays on a terrible team should inflate his numbers, not deflate them.


This is a lame excuse because a lot of great players in the history of the game have had good numbers on terrible teams, does that mean that they are inflated numbers at all times or that they are very good players performing at a high level regardless of the team? To be honest I would rather have a guy like Gasol who puts up numbers on a bad team over a guy like Rondo who puts up good numbers on a stacked team, you can switch the argument the other way also. It drives me crazy when players numbers are overlooked because they played on bad teams. 




> I agree he is not as good as Howard (gee, the best C in the league). Lopez is also better. Kaman is also a better player. What does that prove? Do you think Howard, Lopez, or Kaman would be easily obtainable? Of course not.


What this proves is that saying that Noah is one of the top centers is not the same as saying that so and so is one of the top SF's in the league. There just aren't that many good centers in the NBA, Noah is a good center but he is a legit notch or two below the top 3 centers and with his injury history and the rise of Gasol and Horford I think Noah will slip father. 



> The idea that Noah is easily replaceable is lunacy. The Bulls have not had a center this good in my lifetime. If they were so easy to come by, you'd think in the last 30 years they would've had someone as good, right? Noah is a top 10 center in the league, and players like that are not easily acquired. A skilled true center is probably the most rare commodity in the NBA.


Its not lunacy its reality, if Noah was a top 3 center then hell yeah I would keep on to him but lets not go over board here and talk up Noah like hes the second coming of Wilt Chamberlain. Hes a high motor player who will decline sooner than improve because of his foot problems, while its not super easy to find guy's like him its not the same as looking for the next Howard, Kaman or even Lopez. There have been some pretty good centers drafted in the past 5 years so its not like Noah is a once in a decade talent lol. What Noah does is valuable its just not that rare of a skill.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> The funny thing is that Perkins and Battier are the types of guys that you might try and replace them with. And that is the whole point really. Far worse players that are much older.


The point is who would you rather have guarding Lebron and Kobe, Deng or Battier? The answer is simple its Battier
Who would you feel more comfortable guarding Howard? Noah a guy who gets dominated by Bogut or Perkins a bigger Center who can slow down the more dominant center. 

Its about winning titles, Carmelo brings us closer to a title.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> The point is who would you rather have guarding Lebron and Kobe, Deng or Battier? The answer is simple its Battier
> Who would you feel more comfortable guarding Howard? Noah a guy who gets dominated by Bogut or Perkins a bigger Center who can slow down the more dominant center.
> 
> Its about winning titles, Carmelo brings us closer to a title.


it wouldnt matter who we were playing against, there is no way in the world i would rather have battier over deng or perkins over Noah. Once you throw in that we are building a team for the next 5 years or so and this becomes even more apparent.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> What Noah does is valuable its just not that rare of a skill.



Name the other centers in the NBA that do the same thing as Noah.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> The point is who would you rather have guarding Lebron and Kobe, Deng or Battier? The answer is simple its Battier
> *Who would you feel more comfortable guarding Howard? Noah a guy who gets dominated by Bogut or Perkins a bigger Center who can slow down the more dominant center.*


Andrew Bogut averaged 25 points and 15.5 rebounds against the Celtics this year.... 21.7 and 13.7 against the Bulls... so your knock on Noah for not being able to guard Bogut really doesn't help you out here.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Name the other centers in the NBA that do the same thing as Noah.


What rebounding?

Dwight Howard
Marcus Camby
Zach Randolph
David Lee
Pau Gasol
Bogut
Duncan
Horford

Nobody is saying that Noah sucks or is bad but if there is an opportunity to trade for Carmelo Anthony you go ahead and do it. Rose is the only real untouchable on this team.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Noah is one of the top centers in the league. We are losing a lot if we lose him. You're right though that he is less than "great." Of course, 95% of players fit that description.
> 
> Perkins is a downgrade, but yeah, he is a nice big bodied man defender, so he would fill the role well. I don't see Marc Gasol as an upgrade. Nene is a significant downgrade.
> 
> I also think it's risky to think "hopefully we'll attract ringchasers and therefore we don't need to have the money to pay these guys market value." That's dangerous business.


this to me is overrating Noah, he's young and he's good ...but by any objective measure Nene is better than him , far from a significant downgrade....in fact he probably the worst of the 4 currently although with noah's youth its a hope he gets stronger and continues improving.

Nene's PER 18.9 and according to 82games.com he outproduces his match-up by 3.7 and his +/- +5.1 

Noah'S PER 17.9 he outproduces his match-up by 2.3 and his +/- is -1.3

m. gasol's PER 19.2 outproduces his match up by 4.2 and his +/- is + 9.5

perkins PER is 15.1 outproduces his match up by 0.1 and his +/- is +6.0

on a per minute basis the other 3 all score more often and significantly more efficiently , while Noah has large advantage over all 3 on the boards , but all 3 on a per minute basis had blocks+steals than him.

Noah is still a developing talent and he has a nice future but last season the bulls top 5 line up all featured Rose and miller ...noah was in one so for now they really dont play all that well with him generally...while typically all 3 of the other centers were usually out there when their team was at their best.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> What rebounding?
> 
> Dwight Howard
> Marcus Camby
> ...



No, not just rebounding. Reducing Noah to that shows you don't understand what he is as a player.

Also, note none of the guys you cited would be a realistic Noah replacement.

I agree Noah is not untouchable. You are just undervaluing him. Badly.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> this to me is overrating Noah, he's young and he's good ...but by any objective measure Nene is better than him , far from a significant downgrade....in fact he probably the worst of the 4 currently although with noah's youth its a hope he gets stronger and continues improving.



By any objective measure, Nene is better than Noah? That can't be a serious position. Nene is marginally better at scoring. Noah is a significantly superior rebounder (that's an objective measure, no?). Noah has better handle, better passing, and better shooting. Noah is still developing. Nene is a 29 year old finished product.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> By any objective measure, Nene is better than Noah? That can't be a serious position. Nene is marginally better at scoring. Noah is a significantly superior rebounder (that's an objective measure, no?). Noah has better handle, better passing, and better shooting. Noah is still developing. Nene is a 29 year old finished product.


Nene can post up and be counted to score in that fashion , thats not insignifcant ...he's noolajuwon but he's fairly competent at it , he finished 6th in the league in TS% ...Perkins and gasol were 16th and 11th respectively ....noah was 85th ...25 spots behind jamal crawford not exactly known as a sniper around these parts ...so lets not act like noah's lack of scoring and his level of efficiency means nothing

and dont forget something i'm talking about now not 2018 or some point in the distant future ...but now and in all probability the near future as well, all he does better thats important for a center than nene is rebound , passing and dribbling is nice but if i have a choice between if a center is a better scorer and defender or a better passer and dribbler ...i gotta assume a rational person is gonna pick option 1.

brad miller is a better passer and dribbler than noah ...if it were that important miller would still be a bull.

PS you said Gasol's numbers are inflated because he is on a terrible team ...the grizzlies won 40 in the west ...the bulls won 41 in the east ...i dont think there is much of a difference between the 2 teams ...how are noah's #'s ok but gasol's are discredited?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> Nene can post up and be counted to score in that fashion , thats not insignifcant ...he's noolajuwon but he's fairly competent at it , he finished 6th in the league in TS% ...Perkins and gasol were 16th and 11th respectively ....noah was 85th ...25 spots behind jamal crawford not exactly known as a sniper around these parts ...so lets not act like noah's lack of scoring and his level of efficiency means nothing



I didn't say it meant nothing, so you can set up some other strawman to break down. Noah's scoring ability has markedly improved from year to year. I would expect him to equal or pass Nene's output in the next season or two. He's only 2 PPG behind at the moment, I believe.

You are right Nene's ability to score in the post is an asset for him.

You ignore that Noah is a vastly better rebounder.

Noah's speed, handle, and passing ability are important. Obviously the Brad Miller argument is just a silly non sequitur.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> I didn't say it meant nothing, so you can set up some other strawman to break down. Noah's scoring ability has markedly improved from year to year. I would expect him to equal or pass Nene's output in the next season or two. He's only 2 PPG behind at the moment, I believe.
> 
> You are right Nene's ability to score in the post is an asset for him.
> 
> ...


i dont ignore it , not at all in fact i said in my initial post that "Noah had a large advantage on the boards" but i think that how you and your coach meld your talents into winning basketball is more important.

the fact of last season is this this on that the bulls were better with miller on the floor instead Noah...that in itself says Noah is overrated around here if you want to prop him up on his rebounding #s , David Lee at center is a better rebounder, passer , dribbler and a better scorer but he's such a worse defender , Noah is better and he's better because all those attributes doesn't make up for the one thing he loses to Noah.

at the end of the day the individual #'s say Nene(PER which is basically boiling all the stats to one number) is better as well as Gasol.

teamwise as in how their teams play when they are on the court all 3 centers are better than Noah...for a center depending on your particular team needs defense and offense are more important than rebounding which is basically an aspect of offense and defense.

activity & animation is nice but winning and a player's contributions to winning always trumps that, and the brad miller argument just proves how unimportant those things are for a center especially a center like him a low volume scorer who doesn't get many touches, Noah is not David Robinson or Pau Gasol with the ball and he doesn't get the ball nearly as much to be able to use that ability, he cant be counted on consistently to be a threat with his dribbling and passing , in fact Nene and Gasol even avg. more assists that Noah...so how important is it really?

and you never did answer why you discredit Gasol's #'s earlier...but not noah's.


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## easy (Mar 28, 2005)

One thing that i see people forgetting is that Noah had better numbers before he got injured. He had 11.7ppg, 12.4rpg and 1.8bpg. He was 2nd behind Howard in rebounding. If healthy theres no reason for him not to improve on those numbers


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> and you never did answer why you discredit Gasol's #'s earlier...but not noah's.



I don't think you read my post carefully. bizkit said Gasol could be a beast if he was on a better team. I responded that the fact his team wasn't great meant that his numbers could be inflated now. My only point was that it's not always fair to assume that if you go to a good team your numbers will go up. Sometimes numbers will be gaudier if you are the big fish in the small pond.


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