# Hypothetical Speaking Facts



## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*Hypothetically speaking*, what if Isiah Thomas Knicks have a forth season (in a row) where they could not WIN more than 33 games this 2007-8 season? or they made it to a 38 WIN season in the 2007-8 season? Read it twice to soak in. 
This is hypothetical speaking, but has some strong facters in it that may become a reality with the poor defensive effort, and the lack of team chemistry amongst the players inwhich we been seeing the last three seasons. Not to mention three teams in the Atlantic Division improved dramatically. 

*Do the Knicks have one of the Deepest Benches in the NBA?* Yes or No?
*How well is the Knicks Starters vs NBA Team Starters?* 60%? 50%? 40%? or are we waiting to see by being optimistic because we have a new additional player in the Starting lineup that we assume Stat sheet record says he is better with this Knick roster than the guy he is replacing? 

*As a Knick-Fan what 6 to 7 Players on this Knick Roster you depend on the most for well consistent performances?* please dont add Zack Randolph we have not seen him play in a Knick Uniform. 

Knick-Fan members only


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

Is English your first language? Cos you do realise you're not actually making a point with half you say, right?



> How well is the Knicks Starters vs NBA Team Starters?


How well are they?! Well Curry just got robbed, so I can imagine his mental health might be shaky.
Randolph got traded away because ownership thought he'd hurt the team, so he probably isn't feeling great either.



> what 6 to 7 Players on this Knick Roster you depend on the most for well consistent performances?


You mean which 6 or 7 players on the knicks roster do you depend on the most for consistent performances?
Well, only David Lee really. Don't get me wrong, there's other consistant performers.. but their peformances don't really do much for the Knicks win/loss collumn.

And before anyone questions my Knick-ness.. I'm wearing a Houston#20 jersey :biggrin:


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

different_13 said:


> Is English your first language? Cos you do realise you're not actually making a point with half you say, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


if you actually spent any time here(in the knicks forum) before, you would already know that thats pretty much routine for a kiyaman post/thread....

:lol:



sorry kiya:biggrin:


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

ChosenFEW said:


> if you actually spent any time here(in the knicks forum) before, you would already know that thats pretty much routine for a kiyaman post/thread....
> 
> :lol:
> 
> ...



Oh, I know..
I just usually ignore him..

Speaking of the Knicks forum, that great dunks thread needs revising.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Thanks, you guys really know how to make a guy feel welcome. But Hypothetically speaking another season under 35 WINS will make FOUR in a row for Isiah Thomas. 
Making Laydumb have more Wins then him each season. Now thats BAD.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Different...*

You might try a little civility. If you don't hold Kiyaman's colorful written expression against him, I won't hold your ignorance against you. The man is a tough read sometimes, but he has forgotten more than you know. A little respect, please.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thomas > layden 

we are talking about a guy who in a year's(13 months actually) time traded pat ewing and basically only had the bloated contracts of shandon anderson and howard eisley to show for it.

http://www.n-c-systems.com/hoops/Se...04&EndMonth=1&EndDay=1&submit=Search&start=50

layden inherited a team that went to the finals 2 months before he was hired and was exciting and fun to watch, and left a 10-19 team in shambles in his 4 years, an old slow team with no future , that no one talked about.

you might say thomas hasn't improved the team much ...i would disagree zeke inherited 1 guy who could start around the league and he didn't even make it through the year scott left.

this knicks team probably has 7 guys who could start on most teams around the league...its just a matter of watching that team gell into a cohesive unit.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> thomas > layden
> 
> we are talking about a guy who in a year's(13 months actually) time traded pat ewing and basically only had the bloated contracts of shandon anderson and howard eisley to show for it.
> 
> ...


*Wazup DaGrinch,* which 7 guys have you selected? 

I ask not to put Zack Randolph in the lineup of the (6 to 7) consistent Knick Players that we watched last season to see if alot of Members in this forum have somewhet of the same players as each other. 
Specifically if Coach Isiah Thomas plays these consistent players alot next season with Zack Randolph to get him to become cohesive in a 8 to 9-man rotation. 
This Knick-Roster has loads of talent on it that Head Coach Isiah Thomas should be able to get "JELLIN" in his second season as Head Coach. 

*My 6 to 7 dependable players are:* 
David Lee
Balkman
Crawford
Nate (is the suprise weapon if not monitored by Head coach)
Collins
Marbury (plays consistent with Crawford)
Curry (plays consistent with Lee)
And Q.Richardson is a consistent player when he is playing alongside of certain Teammates.


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## bosiydid (Feb 26, 2006)

different_13 said:


> Is English your first language? *Cos you do realise* you're not actually making a *point with half you say, right*?


If this isn't the blind leading the blind, I don't know what is. And no, English is not my first language. If my command of the written word was as "strong" as yours I'd probably stay clear of lecturing someone else.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

There's a world of difference between something that is grammatically incorrect (such as that quote) and something which is just plain jibberish.

And my post was directed at Kiya, but I'm assuming you know that.

I'd argue my command of the written word is strong enough to merit several years of A's in an English language class, from the moment I entered the damn country (I've been speaking English from birth, but have only been educated in English from my 12th year)

edit:
I agree with the players Kiya listed above, though Q's consistency depends on his health as well as which teammates he's on the floor with. Btw, does anyone know if he plays better at SF or SG?


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

Knicks won't win 38 this year IMO, unless Randolph can really build some chemistry with this team.


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## bosiydid (Feb 26, 2006)

Quite Frankly said:


> Knicks won't win 38 this year IMO, unless Randolph can really build some chemistry with this team.


Thank you for your prediction. I'm picking the Bucks to go to the Finals! :yay:


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Most Consistent List:

Lee
Marbury
Curry
Crawford
Balkman
Nate/Q./Collins

BTW, no offense, but what is a hypothetical fact?


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

There's one problem when discussing consistency - you can be consistent without being good:
putting up 2/2/1 for 600 games in a row is consistent. 

I think this year chemistry is more important than consistency - if the Knicks can finally develop a starting roster and designate which players will be coming off the bench, and in what roles, they'll have taken a big step forward.

One key in the success of teams such as 90's Bulls or the 80's Lakers is stability - if you look, most of those teams have a similar roster each year, with each player playing a similar role each year too.
On the Knicks, the annual influx of lottery picks, MLE players and the single big trade means the roster lacks stability (which makes the chemistry problems worse).

Isiah needs to bite the bullet - Jeffries clearly hasn't played as well as Balkman. Therefore, Balkman should get Jeffries' minutes.
There have been many discussion on the Knicks' finances, and the general conclusion is that the Knicks aren't bound by the salary cap in the same way as most teams: they can afford to have a 90 million dollar roster. They can afford to pay average players a huge salary.
If they can afford to pay them, they can afford to not play them.
If playing Balkman 30 minutes rather than playing Jeffries 30 minutes has better results, then that is what they should do.

I've seen several Knicks posters say that certain players on their team work well with others (Lee and Curry, for example).
I think this year they should sort out a solid 9-man rotation and develop chemistry with _those_ players.
_If_ Jerome James is hopeless, they shouldn't waste time trying to fit him into the rotation.

I do lise things aren't as simple as that.

Curry/Randolph/Lee as the bigman rotation, with Morris filling in when needed (or James if he proves to be a better fit..)
Q and Balkman as the primary SF players (with either Chandler or Jeffries filling in as needed)
Crawford, Marbury, Nate and Collins as the primary guard players (Q can fill in as needed).

Does anyone agree playing something like that, consistently, for a few months would do more to develop chemistry and consistency that the previous methods have?

I can't predict how many games the Knicks will win, as a lot depends on their chemistry. They have a lot of talent, they just need to put it together.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

bosiydid said:


> Thank you for your prediction. I'm picking the Bucks to go to the Finals! :yay:


If only, If only.

I just really think the Knicks will suck it up in the division, just like us with the Bulls, Pistons, and Cavs in our division. IMO both of our teams take it in the butt Harry Potter style.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Kiyaman said:


> *Wazup DaGrinch,* which 7 guys have you selected?
> 
> I ask not to put Zack Randolph in the lineup of the (6 to 7) consistent Knick Players that we watched last season to see if alot of Members in this forum have somewhet of the same players as each other.
> Specifically if Coach Isiah Thomas plays these consistent players alot next season with Zack Randolph to get him to become cohesive in a 8 to 9-man rotation.
> ...


eddy 
stephon
jamal
qrich
dlee
zack
balkman 

i think mardy, jared and nate could be starters depending on the team and circumstances, but the number of teams they could start for is less.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

I am not a Knicks fan, or a Zac*H* Randolpn fan for that matter, but he is already your most consistant player. He brings it every single game, on offense anyway. 


Please for the love of God, it is Zac*H*, not Zac*K*


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

mediocre man said:


> I am not a Knicks fan, or a Zac*H* Randolpn fan for that matter, but he is already your most consistant player. He brings it every single game, on offense anyway.
> 
> 
> Please for the love of God, it is Zac*H*, not Zac*K*



question
why are you writing zack with a capital H?



:biggrin:


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

i have a fact for everyone here.


KNICKS will make the playoffs.....and all the bandwagon fans will be overcrowding these boards mid season when they see how good we are.


now lets hope i didnt jinx us


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

So you expect a ten game improvement? (or thereabouts)

Pistons, Bulls, Cavs, Wizards, Raptors, Nets and probably Celtics are all locks barring injury.
Then there's still the Heat (who you can't discount purely because they have Wade and Shaq), the Bucks (who when healthy have a solid team) and the Magic (who made it last year and improved this year).

That's 10 teams right there. The Knicks have the potential to be better than some of them, but a lot of it relies on injuries (or lack thereof) and chemistry.

It would be good for the NBA to have the Knicks in the playoffs though (and I think the experience would do wonders for the team too).


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Well, the Bulls, Cavs, Pistons, Raptors, Celtics are locks. 

Heat is one shaq/wade 20-game injury away from missing the playoffs imo. Meaning if either one of them plays less than 60 games next season, they will be fighting for that last spot.

With the Nets, if Kristic makes a full recovery and Kidd/VC stays healthy, they can win 50 games. But if Kristic doesn't play like his pre-injury self and something happens to any of the "big 3", they are going to be floating around .500 again.

The Wizards can move up and down depending on Gilbert Arenas. If he comes back with a vengeance they will be in the playoffs for sure.

Lastly with the Magic, I think they actually got worse this offseason despite the huge Lewis signing. They are going to miss Grant Hill's leadership and their bench is really thin now that Darko is gone. They need to start off hot like last year since the team will probably go through some nasty losing streaks throughout the season.

With all that said, the Knicks definitely has enough talent to compete for anywhere from seed 6 to 8. But I wouldn't necessarily say that their chances of moving in is any better than say the Hawks or Bobcats. Both teams are going to be a tad better this year and you figure that will just be enough to fight for that 8th seed.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Think about this..*

The Knicks are as potentially loaded as any team in the East.....and much deeper. No single injured player will bring them down, and, in fact, they could get better. THIS is a fact. If the Knicks work hard on defense and become one of the better defensive teams, they WILL be the team to beat in the East. Some teams are better...some are MUCH better (Knicks included here), and some of the teams stayed the same or got worse (Pistons, Cavs, Heat, Nets(unless they get JO), Wizards. If the Knicks miss out, IT should be fired on the spot as coach.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

To be honest, it's kind of pointless to ask the fans whether Thomas should be fired if the Knicks fail again this year. Isiah Thomas should've been fired a long time ago both as a GM and a coach, anything that happens beyond this point is too late already. The squad that the Knicks currently have has the max potential of being a first round team, second if they face the Wiz of last year. After all these years of messing with the roster this is the best that Thomas can come up with is quite pathetic in my opinion.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

the thing people fail to realize is that 2-3 in each conference teams can say they would have made the playoffs if they were relatively healthy .

in the east last year , the bucks, & knicks could easily make that claim.

in the west the hornets could say they would have made it if not for injuries...the clippers too.

the nets whom people seem to regard as locks only won 41 games last season , it wouldn't have taken much for them to miss the playoffs , something as simple as mikki moore not emerging would have sealed their fate.

there are really only a few teams that i would say cant make the playoffs, the hawks , philly and pacers because i dont think they are good enough .

boston's big 3 missed about 60 games combined last season their health issues make them pretty far from a lock , although its pretty likely they will make it.

nothing is a cinch , but i am satisfied with the knicks progress as a team that could have sneaked into the playoffs but didn't to a team that most likely will make it, and could concievably make some noise when it does. 

its hard to understand how people think adding a guy who will most likely be the team's best player at the spot where they were currently weakest at having little to impact. 

if you took any team in the league and added a player at that team's weakest point that was as good or better than the team's remaining best player , how do you not see a significant rise in that team's chances no matter that guy's weaknesses as a player?


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

Wouldn't be so sure about the Knicks last year, they still lacked chemistry (though it's improving, which was apparant in the second half of last year)

The Nets last year were missing kristic (sp?), and I'd expect them to have at least 42 wins this season - they'll be over .500 imo.



> its hard to understand how people think adding a guy who will most likely be the team's best player at the spot where they were currently weakest at having little to impact.


Chemistry. 
Both Randolph and Curry are feeble defenders - actually, Zach isn't a bad man defender as long as he doesn't have to leave the paint, but I don't see Curry rotating out on a pick'n'roll..
He adds rebounding and scoring, but is a black hole on offense. You'll be getting little benefit from the doubleteams he and Curry draw, as neither's great at passing out of a doubleteam.
Your best shotblocker is still (I think) a backup SF (balkman).

Noone's denying the Knicks have talent in abundance, and on paper they should be the 7th seed or so for sure.
But getting Randolph and Curry to co-exist is going to be very difficult.
Expect Randolph's numbers to take a hit also, as he'll be both sharing shots with another post player _and_ some trigger-happy guards.

The starting lineup (assuming Q plays SF) is looking like Curry/Randolph/Q/Crawford/Marbury.
6'11, 6'9, 6'6, 6'5, 6'2.
There's no great defender there, but there are 5 players who look to score.
Marbury did make some improvements to his pg game last year though, so hopefully he'll keep at that.

The backup crew looks something like 7'1, 6'9, 6'8, 6'6, 5'8. (James, Lee, Balkman, Collins, Nate. And yes, I know James won't be a primary rotation player, you can swap him with Lee and then put Jeffries at PF if you want).
Now there's 4 hustle guys there, 3 of whom are solid defenders and rebounders. At least one of those has to go in the starting lineup, probably at SF.

Btw, am I the only who finds it unlikely that Zach only weighs 215? For a comparison, Marbury is listed at 205, Nichols at 216 and Chandler at 230..


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

different_13 said:


> Wouldn't be so sure about the Knicks last year, they still lacked chemistry (though it's improving, which was apparant in the second half of last year)
> 
> The Nets last year were missing kristic (sp?), and I'd expect them to have at least 42 wins this season - they'll be over .500 imo.
> 
> ...


the nets big 4 get hurt virtually every year , the year before their big 4 only missed 11 games and they won 49 games.

but before that season RJ missed 49 games by himself in 2004-05.

kidd missed 29 games combined in 2003-04 & 2004-05

vc has been relativly injury free in nj , but he was often out of the line up in toronto .

the fluke was the 49 win team when they missed as a 4some 11 games...most should assume some1 will get hurt and the win total to be less than that.

as for the knicks , it not like david lee or channing frye were actually good defenders last season in fact zach stands to be a slight improvement for no other reason the opposing 4's have to expend so much more energy on defense against him it would make them less effective matching up with him....historically he tends to be an avg man to man guy who doesn't help his teamates much , as opposed to lee and frye who were _below_ avg man to man guys who didn't help their teammates much .

i think in most cases unless a guy is truly a top tier (kobe , duncan etc)talent its extremely difficult to expend so much energy on both offense and defense and most choose to only really dedicate themselves on the offensive end until there is significant help.

i tend to look at both zach and eddy of being guilty of that last season , but neither really have that excuse this season because they have each other to help with the burden, I expect both guys defense to be improved and i expect their rebounding #'s to slightly improve...i dont think either will be good especially , but i expect it to look like they care some...on the rebounding front i think the knicks will be the top rebounding team in the league as they try to blugeon opposing teams from the inside out.

and its true zach did get down to 215 , i dont know if he's still there though , i saw a pic of him and he didn't weigh as much as he seemed with a nba jersey on , he was actually pretty thin.

http://www.nba.com/media/blazers/zach_atl8.jpg

but back to the knicks season prospects , if they can score well it will be enough to make the playoffs.

both the wizards and the lakers made the playoffs despite being as bad as the knicks on defense (lakers finshed 24th on defense and the wizards were even worse than the knicks at 28th ) the knicks finshed 25th in the league on defense last season .

but both the lakers(7th) and wizards(5th) were in the top 10 on offense.

in mid march when the knicks were in the made it up to the 7th seed , they were 10th overall on offense , when the injuries took hold and they had to play inferior offensive players , they fell to their eventual ranking of 17th.

it may not mean much in the long run if they are just a 1st round and done team , but as long as they can score they should make it no matter how bad they are on defense.

the mavs were a bad defensive team for years and won 50+ every year just because they scored well.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

The three locks imo are from the central division -- Det, Chi, and Clev -- considering they had the 3 best records lat year and there teams are pretty much the same(aside from the added draft picks, of course). 

The next wave of teams will likely come from the much improved atlantic division, which is probably the deepest division in the conference now. Boston, NY, Tor, NJ all have legit rosters and anything can happen. One of those teams will likely be left out....my guess is NJ.

That leaves two more spots for southeast teams. Miami, Orl, and Wash are the likely contenders possibly w/ Cha making a case for themselves as well. This is the toughest division to predict due to past injury setbacks and what not but I'll go out on a limb and say Dwight and Rashard will showcase the division and Maimi will find a way to keep it together for one more run and beat out Wash.

I would say:

(1)Chi -- Young team with even more inside depth(Noah, Gray).....they can be lethal.
(2)Bos -- KG, PP, R. Allen.......'nuff said.....im expecting ECF appearence
(3)Det -- This where i think they will end up. they're starting to age a little but they're still a Great TEAM --
(4)Orl -- here due to winning SE division, not for 4th best record --
(5)Clev -- Probably should be the #4 seed but we all know what Lebron can do...Clev v. Orl woul be a good matchup tho
(6)Toronto -- Solid team but i dont see them getting out of the 1st --
(7)NY -- Have the peices and depth, just need the chemistry to make some noise --
(8)Miami -- old and banged up but they are still a legit threat --

That Leaves Wash and NJ outside looking in -- mainly due to lack of a quality big man. It will be an interesting season.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

1) Cleveland (Lebron)
2) Chicago (got youth and veteran leadership) 
3) Nets (The Big-3 got lots of help to stay healthy) 
4) Detroit (got both side of the court Chemistry)
5) Toronto (building great chemistry) 
6) Boston (KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen)
7) Miami (Wade return in January) 
8) Wizards (Arenas), Bucks (Redd), Bobcats (Jason Richardson)

With all the potential-talent, with such a deep long bench the Knicks could knock-out any team above from the 4th-spot to the 8th-spot. 
But last season showed "POOR-COACHING" that could not put together a simple rotation of players to build a chemistry on offense, so Knick oponents took advantage of the NonDefensive effort that was never established to these Knick Players as a team-defense. 

*I see a crucial WINNING Lineup on this Knick-Team that could WIN alot of games next season in Zach, Lee, Balkman, Crawford, and Nate Robinson.[/B] 
I'm sure alot of other Knick-Fans could find a WINNING lineup too with all the talented players on this Knick Team. 
Hopefully, in Zeke second season coaching these players he could make a drastic change from last season.*


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

nets at #3 is a bit of a reach dont you think?


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Not if the Nets Win the Atlantic Division Title this season.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

I think he prefers the Raptors or even Celtics over the Nets for the division (though all 3 have an equal chance imo)

The East is definitely getting more interesting these days..


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Here is a post that was printed on December 2005, when the Knicks had THREE Centers battling it out for playingtime with Curry being the Starting Center and James being his backup on the Knicks. 

The POST was about the Knicks Centers and what would be expected from Eddy Curry each game: 16 pts, 14 rbds, 2 blks, per game or stats simular to that. 

*



Jackie Butler seems to show the most promise, younger than all of them but aside from fouls, probably plays the most like a true center. curry has been through a lot with the heart thing in chicago and i think nows the time to put that behind and play like an all star. the potential is there, he has to work on d, rebounding, playing smart, and free throws.

Click to expand...

*
This above response was posted in December 2005, when Jackie Butler was really into his first season in the NBA, playing like Raw Rookie Bynum but better when on the court with Rookie Frye and Lee (molding a Future frontcourt lineup out of the rookies). 
These Three Guys *(C-Butler, PF-Frye, SF-Lee)* was supposed to be the Knicks Second-Unit frontcourt lineup in their second season together in the 2006-7 season. 
If this second-season frontcourt lineup was their last season with Rookie Balkman off the bench too, the Knicks would have had a successful Post Season making it to the second round. 
The Knicks did not need Jerome James or Jared Jefferies on this Knick Roster once they seen how well *Butler, Frye, and Lee *kept playing so well together on offense/defense everytime they all three were on the court together.


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