# Richard Jefferson to Spurs (close to official)



## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Ill find the link but it sounds official, chad ford says its awaiting approval.

Bucks trade Richard Jefferson
Spurs trade Bruce Bowen Fabricio Oberto and Kurt Thomas


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4281291


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*

The Bucks get out of salary cap hell and keep their 10th pick, and can now make a legit offer to resign at least one of sessions or villanueva, i wouldnt be shocked if bowen gets released right off the bat

Good luck to all teams in the west... the spurs starting 5 is just filthy now


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

What does RJ's contract look like?


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Great trade for the Spurs. In the event that they're all healthy at one time, that's a championship contender.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Spurs still need more in my opinion to compete in the West.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Oh my...Spurs going to be tough.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

myst said:


> What does RJ's contract look like?


29 million over the next 2 years


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

myst said:


> What does RJ's contract look like?


$29.2 million over the next 2 years.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Where's Gregg Popovich *****ing about getting a fringe All-Star for practically nothing? 

I thought we needed a league investigation last time this happened.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Where's Gregg Popovich *****ing about getting a fringe All-Star for practically nothing?
> 
> I thought we needed a league investigation last time this happened.


The Bucks needed cap relief, if they can resign Sessions or Villanueva then you can basically include them in the deal for Jefferson, without cap relief the bucks werent going to be able to bring back any young pieces, and Oberto and Thomas are massive depth upgrades for the Bucks as well


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## lakeshows (Mar 17, 2009)

myst said:


> What does RJ's contract look like?


He gets paid like a super-star, but it's only 2 years so it's not that bad considering he's still capable of being a fringe all-star. He's got 2 years and $29.2 mil left on his contract.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Wow, he is highly overpaid, terrible contract.

And I have no problem with teams giving up an all-star for expiring contracts/draft picks. It helps fast track that teams rebuilding process.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

This is a great deal for the Spurs. The guys they got RJ for are pretty much done or close to done. He's a good scorer and can be a good defender when he is up to it. They've got a potent scoring force once again, dont know if that puts them over the Lakers though.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Where's Gregg Popovich *****ing about getting a fringe All-Star for practically nothing?
> 
> I thought we needed a league investigation last time this happened.


I'd take any one of those 3 guys over Kwame Brown 700 days a year. This is far more even than the Gasol trade even if it was a straight 1 for 1 swap.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Good trade, vaults them right back up with L.A., but they're going to have make a couple of signings to help their depth, which they gutted in this deal (well, frontcourt depth).


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## lakeshows (Mar 17, 2009)

HB said:


> This is a great deal for the Spurs. The guys they got RJ for are pretty much done or close to done. He's a good scorer and can be a good defender when he is up to it. They've got a potent scoring force once again, dont know if that puts them over the Lakers though.


If Ginobli stays healthy (along with Duncan and Parker) then they are a legitimate threat to the Lakers.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Ginobili, Parker, Jefferson, Mason. That's crazy. Spurs lose some depth up front but nothing to cry over.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



roux2dope said:


> The Bucks get out of salary cap hell and keep their 10th pick, and can now make a legit offer to resign at least one of sessions or villanueva, i wouldnt be shocked if bowen gets released right off the bat
> 
> Good luck to all teams in the west... the spurs starting 5 is just filthy now


What are the chances that the Bucks release Bowen and he resigns with the Spurs? 100%?


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> I'd take any one of those 3 guys over Kwame Brown 700 days a year. This is far more even than the Gasol trade even if it was a straight 1 for 1 swap.


I'd take those guys over Kwame Brown, too. How about Marc Gasol, Darrell Arthur or the 2010 first round pick that you apparently had no idea were included in the Pau Gasol trade?


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Cinco de Mayo said:


> I'd take those guys over Kwame Brown, too. How about Marc Gasol, Darrell Arthur or the 2010 first round pick that you apparently had no idea were included in the Pau Gasol trade?


It was a financial move.. if the Bucks resign Sessions because of this then it was a perfect trade for them.. i value sessions more than Jefferson anyways. No doubt talent wise the Spurs got the better end of this deal, but for the Bucks it makes perfect sense.. i wouldve loved to have gotten the Spurs first out of it but oh well


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



Hyperion said:


> What are the chances that the Bucks release Bowen and he resigns with the Spurs? 100%?


Part 2 of why this makes sense for the Bucks is they have Moute and Alexander at the 3 as well, moving Jefferson frees up playing time for them, and i dont see them hanging on to Bowen cause it would take minutes away from those 2. I'd agree that Bowen will be a spur next year


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

jefferson is about 4mil overpaid but he seems like the perfect fit for the spurs. the spurs got younger extremely quick and this move has significantly improved their team. jefferson is one of the most underappreciated players.. he has a nice offensive game and has even developed 3 point range, and has always been a feisty defender. great for the spurs.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I think that it's a good deal for both teams. 

The Spurs finally have some more offensive firepower, scoring shouldn't really be a problem any more with Duncan/Parker/Ginobli/Jefferson, but still, they're lacking in quality bigs (Besides Timmy, of course) and trading away Kurt Thomas isn't going to help that. All in all it's a good trade though.

The Bucks get some cap relief and now they can resign Sessions. Oh, and it doesn't hurt them that they got rid of one of the many chuckers they have, either.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

roux2dope said:


> It was a financial move.. if the Bucks resign Sessions because of this then it was a perfect trade for them.. i value sessions more than Jefferson anyways. No doubt talent wise the Spurs got the better end of this deal, but for the Bucks it makes perfect sense.. i wouldve loved to have gotten the Spurs first out of it but oh well


I totally understand why Milwaukee made the deal. They unload a bloated contract and get the future flexibility to re-sign their own players. 

Just wanted to point out Popovich's hypocrisy and laugh at how when Memphis deals Pau Gasol for building blocks, it's a punchline for a year-and-a-half, but when Milwaukee gives San Antonio Richard Jefferson for expiring-contract fossils who won't play in Milwaukee, there won't be a peep.


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## Spoiled Milk (Jun 22, 2009)

Good deal on the Spurs' part. Once the trade becomes official, now we got to see if they're actually worth the trade.


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## TYO23 (Feb 2, 2009)

Woah great deal imo for the spurs.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Has Jefferson declined much since he was in New Jersey? I haven't been following what Milwaukee has done the past couple seasons.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

So, do the Spurs have a deal in place with Splitter to renounce his draft rights and sign him with either the LLE or part of the MLE? Splitter & McDyess might be enough depth to put them back at the top of the heap out west. (Since they'd be able to severely limit Ginobli's minutes until the postseason.)


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

It's a good deal, but hardly a move to vault them back into contender status. Jefferson is a fine player and a massive upgrade over anyone not named Parker, Duncan or Ginobili, an All-Star he is not. He will probably become one of the better wing defenders with all the support and within the defensive system again and add someone else who can score. I don't think this is truly a big deal though, literally in the original sense.

Good first step for the Spurs in the offseason, more needs to be done to overhaul the roster.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

ATLien said:


> Has Jefferson declined much since he was in New Jersey? I haven't been following what Milwaukee has done the past couple seasons.


He only played for the Bucks in this past season, and he was pretty unimpressive. He'll most likely get back on his feet in San Antonio though.


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## Spoiled Milk (Jun 22, 2009)

Spurs is still not getting ALOT younger but Jefferson is a better all-around player than Bowen.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

c_dog said:


> jefferson is about 4mil overpaid but he seems like the perfect fit for the spurs. the spurs got younger extremely quick and this move has significantly improved their team. jefferson is one of the most underappreciated players.. he has a nice offensive game and has even developed 3 point range, and has always been a feisty defender. great for the spurs.


Underrated by whom ? Certainly not on this board or in this particular thread, rather the opposite.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



roux2dope said:


> The Bucks get out of salary cap hell and keep their 10th pick, and can now make a legit offer to resign at least one of sessions or villanueva, i wouldnt be shocked if bowen gets released right off the bat
> 
> Good luck to all teams in the west... *the spurs starting 5 is just filthy now*


i must be out of the loop.....did the spurs sign a decent center recently??? excuse me, i meant a filthy center.....


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Jefferson will play very well in San Antonio. The Spurs will obviously going big in the offseason. Their wing rotation is one of the best in the league now:

Starters: Parker, Ginobili, Jefferson
Bench: Hill, Mason, Finley

Amazing what one deal and a little health can do for a team. Spurs are back to being a solid #2 in the West with this move. Retain Gooden, Bonner and bring in one more big (Mahinmi isn't ready) and the Spurs can compete for the title. If they could somehow pry Rasheed or McDyess off the scrap heap for a run at the title they are contenders once again.

Jefferson didn't have a great year, but Redd and Bogut were out and he is an ironman. He plays much better when he's playing with good talent.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

ATLien said:


> Has Jefferson declined much since he was in New Jersey? I haven't been following what Milwaukee has done the past couple seasons.


When Redd and Bogut were out last year and Jefferson became our lead guy we sucked out loud, but it wasnt his fault, he averaged well over 20 a game when he was the go to guy. He will be able to lead the spurs in some games but in reality he is going to be their 4th option on the floor, his numbers will go down next year just because of that. I loved Jefferson last year and i cant think of too many guys id want to be my 4th scoring option in the league right now that are better than him


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



bootstrenf said:


> i must be out of the loop.....did the spurs sign a decent center recently??? excuse me, i meant a filthy center.....


Thats right they won those couple of titles with a hall of fame center named...? Tim Duncan makes up for a lack of center.. always has and yes i am aware they won two with Robinson, but they won one without him as well


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## FreeMason Jr. (Jul 12, 2004)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



Hyperion said:


> What are the chances that the Bucks release Bowen and he resigns with the Spurs? 100%?


Give or take a percent. Seriously, how are the Spurs losing any depth? Oberto was out all season cause of his heart condition, and it's almost a given Bowen will be released. Kurt Thomas for Richard Jefferson? Hell yeah!


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



roux2dope said:


> Thats right they won those couple of titles with a hall of fame center named...? Tim Duncan makes up for a lack of center.. always has and yes i am aware they won one with Robinson


Yes, because he _is_ the center.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

croco said:


> It's a good deal, but hardly a move to vault them back into contender status. Jefferson is a fine player and a massive upgrade over anyone not named Parker, Duncan or Ginobili, an All-Star he is not. He will probably become one of the better wing defenders with all the support and within the defensive system again and add someone else who can score. I don't think this is truly a big deal though, literally in the original sense.
> 
> Good first step for the Spurs in the offseason, more needs to be done to overhaul the roster.


How do you figure? Jefferson should be good for 17 ppg at least, gives San Antonio another quality defender, and as HKF said the Spurs have the best wing rotation in the NBA now. A couple of signings can be made to address the frontcourt depth, such as (again as mentioned) McDyess and Splitter. They're in great shape.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



FreeMason Jr. said:


> Give or take a percent. Seriously, how are the Spurs losing any depth? Oberto was out all season cause of his heart condition, and it's almost a given Bowen will be released. Kurt Thomas for Richard Jefferson? Hell yeah!


Christ, it's nearly a given that Kurt Thomas gets bought out and returns. Let them have Diceman and Splitter to go along with Bonner and they'll have all the bodies they'll need at the 4/5 to compete again.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



FreeMason Jr. said:


> Give or take a percent. Seriously, how are the Spurs losing any depth? Oberto was out all season cause of his heart condition, and it's almost a given Bowen will be released. Kurt Thomas for Richard Jefferson? Hell yeah!


The Suns traded KT and their unprotected 2010 draft pick for cash so this is a way better deal.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



ehmunro said:


> Christ, it's nearly a given that Kurt Thomas gets bought out and returns. Let them have Diceman and Splitter to go along with Bonner and they'll have all the bodies they'll need at the 4/5 to compete again.


Id be cool if the bucks bought all three out, i want sessions and CV back, and BPA at the 10 spot


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## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Where's Gregg Popovich *****ing about getting a fringe All-Star for practically nothing?
> 
> I thought we needed a league investigation last time this happened.


:rofl:



> “What they did in Memphis is beyond comprehension,” said Popovich. “There should be a trade committee that can scratch all trades that make no sense. I just wish I had been on a trade committee that oversees NBA trades. I’d like to elect myself to that committee. I would have voted no to the L.A. trade.” -popovich


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Yeah RJ's not getting a lot of credit. He's become one of the best midrange shooters in the game, he'll get a ton of open looks with the guys he's playing with. Their starting five will be hard to stop, too much offense. Its the bench that's really weak, even with Bowen likely going back, its still a weak bench.


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## FreeMason Jr. (Jul 12, 2004)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



bootstrenf said:


> i must be out of the loop.....did the spurs sign a decent center recently??? excuse me, i meant a filthy center.....


Parker
Ginobili
Jefferson
Gooden
Duncan

It's obvious who the weak link is, but that's still one helluva line-up. Hill and Mason off the bench isn't too shabby either.


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## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Where's Gregg Popovich *****ing about getting a fringe All-Star for practically nothing?
> 
> I thought we needed a league investigation last time this happened.


:rofl:



> “What they did in Memphis is beyond comprehension,” said Popovich. “There should be a trade committee that can scratch all trades that make no sense. I just wish I had been on a trade committee that oversees NBA trades. I’d like to elect myself to that committee. I would have voted no to the L.A. trade.” -popovich


bring out the NBA trade comittee, pop.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



roux2dope said:


> Id be cool if the bucks bought all three out, i want sessions and CV back, and BPA at the 10 spot


I'd assumed that was their intention all along, shave enough payroll to bring back Charlie Eyebrows & Sessions and not feel compelled to choose a PG at #10 in fears that they couldn't match any offer. As far as I can tell, if they have the space for both players, that's a great trade for them.


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## FreeMason Jr. (Jul 12, 2004)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> How do you figure? Jefferson should be good for 17 ppg at least, gives San Antonio another quality defender, and as HKF said the Spurs have the best wing rotation in the NBA now. A couple of signings can be made to address the frontcourt depth, such as (again as mentioned) McDyess and *Splitter*. They're in great shape.






ehmunro said:


> Christ, it's nearly a given that Kurt Thomas gets bought out and returns. Let them have Diceman and *Splitter* to go along with Bonner and they'll have all the bodies they'll need at the 4/5 to compete again.


Splitter can't join the spurs until next year at the earliest.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> How do you figure? Jefferson should be good for 17 ppg at least, gives San Antonio another quality defender, and as HKF said the Spurs have the best wing rotation in the NBA now. A couple of signings can be made to address the frontcourt depth, such as (again as mentioned) McDyess and Splitter. They're in great shape.


It's an upgrade for sure, what they need in addition to Jefferson is a healthy Ginobili and more depth. Also, Tim Duncan has shown some signs of slowing down last year, that trend needs to stop if they want to be in contention for another title.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



FreeMason Jr. said:


> Splitter can't join the spurs until next year at the earliest.


Splitter's agent didn't include a buyout clause in his contract? Is he an idiot?


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

DANNY said:


> :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> bring out the NBA trade comittee, pop.


Except that Gasol is light years better than Jefferson.


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Where's Gregg Popovich *****ing about getting a fringe All-Star for practically nothing?
> 
> I thought we needed a league investigation last time this happened.


you guys actually think this is a lopsided trade? it's not the best you can get with RJ but it's old players for old players who are all serviceable

Bruce Bowen Fabricio Oberto and Kurt Thomas are all very good defenders who can knock down their shots and all have very high bball IQ

what did Kwame do except pick up as many fouls as his turnovers?



bootstrenf said:


> i must be out of the loop.....did the spurs sign a decent center recently??? excuse me, i meant a filthy center.....


lol filthy

the Spurs have to get healthy to stay competitive, not on the Lakers' level yet but anything's possibleeeee


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Here's the thing, Michael Finley will probably have a better year next year, as will Ginobili because plugging Jefferson into the lineup is plugging a guy who can play 35 minutes a night (every night) and is durable and big enough to play the 3 spot (6'7-6'8). The minutes for Ginobili and Finley is a major concern and both are expiring in 2010, so keeping their minutes down in the mid 20's for Manu and teens for Finley is a beautiful thing.

He also will be super thrilled to be on an actual contender and not on a Bucks team that gives away good players for salary relief yet they want to re-sign Sessions and Villanueva. 

Think about this for a second. The Bucks are giving away two high-level players in back to back offseasons in Mo Williams and Richard Jefferson and all they have to show for it is Luke Ridnour (bum), Damon Jones (expiring), Fabricio Oberto (heart condition), Kurt Thomas (gonna be bought out) and Bruce Bowen (over the hill)

Meanwhile Bogut is paid 60 million, Redd has max money and he's one dimensional and now they are going to overpay to keep Sessions and Villanueva more than likely. This is not how you run a franchise. Kohl needs to just sell the team. There is no reason for Milwaukee to be an also-ran into perpetuity.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



ehmunro said:


> I'd assumed that was their intention all along, shave enough payroll to bring back Charlie Eyebrows & Sessions and not feel compelled to choose a PG at #10 in fears that they couldn't match any offer. As far as I can tell, if they have the space for both players, that's a great trade for them.


Thats how you have to look at it..

I hope it turns out that Bucks traded Jefferson for the ability to keep CV and Sessions, when you look at it that way the Bucks made the absolute perfect mve for their team, the Spurs getting Jefferson for old bodies looks bad but it will make the Bucks better in the long run, this is a case where both teams get better, despite the names in the trade


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

croco said:


> Except that Gasol is light years better than Jefferson.


of course marc gasol and a first round pick are light years better than what the bucks got for jefferson.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

HB said:


> Yeah RJ's not getting a lot of credit. He's become one of the best midrange shooters in the game, he'll get a ton of open looks with the guys he's playing with. Their starting five will be hard to stop, too much offense. Its the bench that's really weak, even with Bowen likely going back, its still a weak bench.


the bench is weak? mason, finley, and hill coming off the bench on the perimeter isn't weak at all. the frontcourt depth is weak, but it would be assumed that the spurs will address that next.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

people are underrating the spurs. If they had a healthy ginobli this past season, they would be competeting with the Nuggets to play in the conference championship, and probably would beat the nuggets. Their major problem wasn't being able to put enough points on the board, and richard jefferson is a legit scorer who can put up 20 points a night. I can see sheed or mcdyess signing with either cleveland or the spurs. But all they need is another big and they'll be fine.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Let me also mention from the Bucks side, I hate this deal, but if it frees up more minutes for Joe Alexander and Luc Richard, then it's probably a good deal, but now having Michael Redd on the team with his bloated salary makes zero sense. Too bad his deal is now an albatross and untradable (until he's expiring).


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



roux2dope said:


> Thats right they won those couple of titles with a hall of fame center named...? Tim Duncan makes up for a lack of center.. always has and yes i am aware they won two with Robinson, but they won one without him as well


why so defensive???

i asked a simple question.....i was just wondering if i missed out on a trade or something.....


relax there corky, you're going to give yourself a migraine...


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

HKF said:


> Let me also mention from the Bucks side, I hate this deal, but if it frees up more minutes for Joe Alexander and Luc Richard, then it's probably a good deal, but now having Michael Redd on the team with his bloated salary makes zero sense. Too bad his deal is now an albatross and untradable (until he's expiring).


They are transitioning to become a younger team, Redd blowing out his knee was the worst thing that couldve happened to them last year, it made him untradeable. The fact is that the Jefferson -Redd bucks were at best an 8 seed team in the east, a Bogut,Sessions,Moute, Alexander,Cv and #10pick team gives them hope for the future


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## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

croco said:


> Except that Gasol is light years better than Jefferson.


fair trade since there's no first round picks involved?


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

chairman5 said:


> you guys actually think this is a lopsided trade? it's not the best you can get with RJ but it's old players for old players who are all serviceable
> 
> Bruce Bowen Fabricio Oberto and Kurt Thomas are all very good defenders who can knock down their shots and all have very high bball IQ


None of those old players want to go from San Antonio to Milwaukee, and my guess is that only one of them at most will stay there.



> what did Kwame do except pick up as many fouls as his turnovers?


I didn't realize so many casual NBA fans posted here. God have mercy.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> of course marc gasol and a first round pick are light years better than what the bucks got for jefferson.


The thing is giving up those players to Memphis didn't hurt the Lakers, just like trading three veterans who are close to the end of their career doesn't hurt the Spurs. All things being equal it is not a similar trade because Jefferson is clearly the inferior player.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

DANNY said:


> fair trade since there's no first round picks involved?


There is no such thing like fair trades in the NBA, both have to agree and eventually someone will always be declared the winner of a trade. As long as all parties have to agree, it can't be considered unfair.


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## FreeMason Jr. (Jul 12, 2004)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



ehmunro said:


> Splitter's agent didn't include a buyout clause in his contract? Is he an idiot?


The buyout clause made it to where he can't be bought out until 2010. I believe the contract isn't actually up until 2012.


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## lakeshows (Mar 17, 2009)

DANNY said:


> :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> bring out the NBA trade comittee, pop.


Getting 20/9/2 from the 4/5 position is much more valuable than getting 17/4/3 from a wing position. And lol at Rawse claiming the 30th pick in 2010 and Darrell Arthur or Marc Gasol are building blocks for anything other than mediocrity or the lottery.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



FreeMason Jr. said:


> The buyout clause made it to where he can't be bought out until 2010. I believe the contract isn't actually up until 2012.


So he is an idiot then. When in 2010 can he buy himself out? In any event, with enough money anything's possible. I doubt the Spanish team stands in Splitter's way when he could basically go all Iverson on them and ruin their chances next year. The Spurs might need to use the full MLE to get the deal done, though.


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

Dunno exactly what's going on with the Bucks. I barely keep up with them even though I live in Milwaukee. Redd got hurt last season, and it was downhill for them. Bogut hasn't really panned out. The management must be kicking itself since they had an opportunity to take CP3, D-Will. 

As for Spurs, this is a great deal for them. Not only it puts them back as contenders in the West but also as one of NBA favorites.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

I'm usually impressed by the Spurs FO; this is a great move by them and definitely puts them back into championship contendor territory. They do need to get some frontcourt depth but if Gooden stays on and Ian Mahimi (spelling on that one) plays at least on a Francisco Elson-level - things look good for the silver and black.

Oh yea and I think its pretty naive to compare this move to the likes of Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol. Its understandable though since Spurs and Lakers have somewhat of a rivalry and I'm sure many Laker fans are quick to pull the trigger on that infamous Pop quote.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Jefferson has never made the all-star game, but he has had some all-star caliber seasons (keep in mind he is 29 years old and only has two seasons left on his deal):

2003-04: 82 games, 18.5 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.1 spg, 49.8 FG%, 36.4 3PT%, 76.3 FT%
2004-05: injured a lot of this season, so I won't count this...
2005-06: 78 games, 19.5 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 3.8 apg, 0.8 spg, 49.3 FG%, 31.9 3PT%, 81.2 FT%
2006-07: 55 games, 16.3 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 2.7 apg, 0.6 spg, 45.6 FG%, 35.9 3PT%, 73.3 FT%
2007-08: 82 games, 22.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 3.1 apg, 0.9 spg, 46.6 FG%, 36.2 3PT%, 79.8 FT%
2008-09: 82 games, 19.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 2.4 apg, 0.8 spg, 43.9 FG%, 39.7 3PT%, 80.5 FT%


Jefferson's career playoff averages:

78 games played, 15.1 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.8 spg, 47.4 FG%, 30.8 3PT%, 73.8 FT%

If we are honest with ourselves here, Pau Gasol was not considered the player he is playing with Kobe that he was in Memphis. The game is much easier for him playing with one of the best two players in basketball and playing with Parker and Duncan, will do the same thing for Jefferson. The Spurs did not have a slasher other than Parker, before this trade (George Hill was still very green).

This guy is not as good as Gasol, but then again he also isn't vastly inferior to him either.


----------



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



ehmunro said:


> So he is an idiot then. When in 2010 can he buy himself out? In any event, with enough money anything's possible. I doubt the Spanish team stands in Splitter's way when he could basically go all Iverson on them and ruin their chances next year. The Spurs might need to use the full MLE to get the deal done, though.


They absolutely better be willing to use the MLE. If I'm Splitter and they renounce my rights I'm instantly maneuvering for an MLE contract somewhere. No way in hell should he abide by any handshake agreement for the LLE.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

RJ wasnt exactly giddy about playing in Milwaukee, he was going to get traded one way or the other.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

The Spurs still need someone at the PF/C which i'm sure they'll adress.

RJ gives them insurance in case Ginobili gets injured again to be that 3rd scorer behind Parker and Timmay.


- Lnyx wth with that Signature? That's too much man.


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

Prolific Scorer said:


> The Spurs still need someone at the PF/C which i'm sure they'll adress.


Even though, Spurs won 'chips without him, they haven't really addressed this issue since The Admiral retired.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

croco said:


> The thing is giving up those players to Memphis didn't hurt the Lakers, just like trading three veterans who are close to the end of their career doesn't hurt the Spurs. All things being equal it is not a similar trade because Jefferson is clearly the inferior player.


the trades are very similar. in both cases teams gave up very little to get a player who will have a much bigger impact on their team than the players who left. pau gasol definitely is a better player than richard jefferson, which is why the lakers had to give up marc gasol and a first round pick while the spurs only gave up expiring contracts.

if you're against one deal for it being unfair, you should be against both.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



The '93 Heat said:


> They absolutely better be willing to use the MLE. If I'm Splitter and they renounce my rights I'm instantly maneuvering for an MLE contract somewhere. No way in hell should he abide by any handshake agreement for the LLE.


Well, as I indicated in the initial post, it wouldn't be a handshake agreement. They'd need to find out how much he has to pay to buy himself out of his deal in Spain, and then make it worth his while. I don't know the details of his Spanish contract, and don't know how much money that is, but they can absolutely negotiate a deal with him beforehand, they only need to renounce his draft rights to make it official.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Hmm at least on forums Richard Jefferson seemed like a likely trade candidiate anyway; I still remember threads about Spurs trying to sign on Vince Carter and RJ earlier in the season.

Was this trade as "secretive" as Memphis was with Pau? In that situation it seemed like only the Lakers even knew of the opportunity whereas RJ has been in trade-talks. 

In any case you fight fire with fire although RJ doens't have anywhere near the impact as a big man of Pau's skill and talent. Kurt Thomas is also a good big to have on the bench and Bruce Bowen barely played at all last season so I'm not really sure if he has much in the tank; but he'll probably go back to the Spurs. Oberto's heart condition kept him sidelines last season but imo he is one of those underrated players with a high IQ who plays to his limited strengths and brings intangible qualities on the court.


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> the trades are very similar. in both cases teams gave up very little to get a player who will have a much bigger impact on their team than the players who left. pau gasol definitely is a better player than richard jefferson, which is why the lakers had to give up marc gasol and a first round pick while the spurs only gave up expiring contracts.
> 
> if you're against one deal for it being unfair, you should be against both.


But it's not the Lakers, so in this case Oberto, Thomas and Bowen are good defenders and serviceable players when in reality at least two of the three are as good as done. 

I think it's a good trade for the Spurs. They needed a change. Now if they can stay healthy (especially Gino), I think they'll be a tough out in the Playoffs.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

HKF said:


> Jefferson has never made the all-star game, but he has had some all-star caliber seasons (keep in mind he is 29 years old and only has two seasons left on his deal):
> 
> 2003-04: 82 games, 18.5 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.1 spg, 49.8 FG%, 36.4 3PT%, 76.3 FT%
> 2004-05: injured a lot of this season, so I won't count this...
> ...


Jefferson will benefit from playing alongside Parker and Duncan (and Ginobili if he ever becomes healthy again), but he is not one of those role players who can simply move around the perimeter, spot up and wait for an opportunity. He is a slasher and I'm not sure if he is going to get as many touches as he would like to, much like Bowen wasn't asked to do a whole lot as the small forward in the system. I think on defense is where he can really shine, apply pressure knowing that Duncan is waiting behind him and maybe they will add another shot blocker again. The Spurs might get back to their old moniker and try to play suffocating defense instead of going small more than Popovich might have liked to.

Have to disagree about the other point though, Gasol is vastly superior as comparing their PERs and trend in recent years is showing, plus Gasol being a big man adds even more value to his. Jefferson might close the gap a little since he is likely to be one hundred percent motivated like you said, however he hasn't had an All-Star caliber season in years either.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> the trades are very similar. in both cases teams gave up very little to get a player who will have a much bigger impact on their team than the players who left. pau gasol definitely is a better player than richard jefferson, which is why the lakers had to give up marc gasol and a first round pick while the spurs only gave up expiring contracts.
> 
> if you're against one deal for it being unfair, you should be against both.


I never said I'm against either trade, see above.

My point is that the Lakers gave up future value, not current players, they didn't weaken their team that year by giving up two or three role players. Relatively speaking, the Lakers gave up more to get more, but they were also able to delay the process of giving up value one season into the future as opposed to immediately.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

HKF said:


> Jefferson has never made the all-star game, but he has had some all-star caliber seasons (keep in mind he is 29 years old and only has two seasons left on his deal):
> 
> 2003-04: 82 games, 18.5 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.1 spg, 49.8 FG%, 36.4 3PT%, 76.3 FT%
> 2004-05: injured a lot of this season, so I won't count this...
> ...




you make some good points.....and i do agree that in terms of skill, jefferson is not vastly inferior......however, due to positional scarcity, jefferson is vastly inferior in terms of value.......


it's not easy to find a big with gasol's level of skill......however, swingmen like jefferson are a dime a dozen in this league......


that is why i don't really think that the two trades are comparable......it's obvious that there were similar circustances surrounding the two trades, but there is a huge difference in terms of value changing hands.....


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Croco, the Spurs lost to the Mavs because they had no one who could create their own shot outside of Parker and Duncan in the playoffs. I mean they got stomped by the Mavs, Jefferson doesn't have to spot up exclusively and what would be the point of trading for him to do that. This guy is one of the best slashers in the league and with a guy like Duncan there to finish, having him and Parker out there makes the team even more dangerous.

Finley used to be a great slasher, but he's too old now. Like I said, Gasol is better than Jefferson, but let's remember that when Pau was getting swept out every year and RJ was making runs with the Nets, no one thought Gasol was "THAT" much better. I think Pau is better, but Jefferson isn't a Corey Maggette or Al Thornton here. He's been a contributor on some really good playoff teams as part of a big 3.


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## eddymac (Jun 23, 2005)

This is a good trade for the Spurs.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

bootstrenf said:


> ,swingmen like jefferson are a dime a dozen in this league......


No they're not.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

HKF said:


> *Croco, the Spurs lost to the Mavs because they had no one who could create their own shot outside of Parker and Duncan in the playoffs. I mean they got stomped by the Mavs, Jefferson doesn't have to spot up exclusively and what would be the point of trading for him to do that. This guy is one of the best slashers in the league and with a guy like Duncan there to finish, having him and Parker out there makes the team even more dangerous.*
> Finley used to be a great slasher, but he's too old now. Like I said, Gasol is better than Jefferson, but let's remember that when Pau was getting swept out every year and RJ was making runs with the Nets, no one thought Gasol was "THAT" much better. I think Pau is better, but Jefferson isn't a Corey Maggette or Al Thornton here. He's been a contributor on some really good playoff teams as part of a big 3.


You could say that, but you could also say they had Matt Bonner starting at the 4. 

I agree with what you're saying though.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

bootstrenf said:


> you make some good points.....and i do agree that in terms of skill, jefferson is not vastly inferior......however, due to positional scarcity, jefferson is vastly inferior in terms of value.......
> 
> 
> it's not easy to find a big with gasol's level of skill......however, swingmen like jefferson are a dome a dozen in this league......
> ...


I made this comparison the other day, but what did Minnesota get from Boston? The goal in the NBA is to win. If you trade for young players and you lose, then it doesn't matter what you received. 

Milwaukee for the past two years have just given away players (look what happened to Cleveland and next year San Antonio is back to winning 55+ games), while the Bucks miss the playoffs again. Memphis is constantly dissed for giving away Gasol when they were not even winning with him. Meanwhile, no one says anything about Minnesota giving up KG and being just as bad if not worse than Memphis.

Now I know it's because people hate the Lakers, so they deride the deal, but Memphis did not make a bad deal and if they played in the East (where they could move up quicker), their owner would probably go for a quick rebuild. 

If the Memphis did is a bad deal, then so is the Minnesota deal and so are the last two Milwaukee deals IMO. Then again I don't see any of the deals being bad deals with the exception of Milwaukee, because Milwaukee seems like a franchise without a direction. Their youth movement is behind guys who are no longer on rookie contracts, which means these are young players who are veterans and mediocre. 

Minnesota has a cornerstone in Jefferson, but every other potential piece is on a rookie contract except Mike Miller, Craig Smith, Sebastian Telfair and Ryan Gomes who are role players who need to come off the bench and in each case none of them are overpaid. Memphis actually has three really impressive young players in Gay, Mayo and Gasol, but their problem is they are too young. 

What does this team look like in five years?

Michael Redd, Luke Ridnour, Andrew Bogut, Kurt Thomas, Dan Gadzuric, Luc Richad Mbah Moute, Joe Alexander, Charlie Bell, Ramon Sessions, Charlie Villanueva, #10 pick.

This team still doesn't have a present or a future.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

roux2dope said:


> The Bucks needed cap relief, if they can resign Sessions or Villanueva then you can basically include them in the deal for Jefferson, without cap relief the bucks werent going to be able to bring back any young pieces, and Oberto and Thomas are massive depth upgrades for the Bucks as well


He was being sarcastic.

When the Lakers got Pau Gasol, Popovich whined like a little girl and said that an investigation should be held.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Damian Necronamous said:


> He was being sarcastic.
> 
> When the Lakers got Pau Gasol, Popovich whined like a little girl and said that an investigation should be held.


i did get that


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

So should we expect Bowen and Oberto to re-sign with the Spurs this offseason when they are released from the Bucks?

I think the Spurs are going to try to lock up Drew Gooden with their MLE - something like a 3yr/$15M deal.

PG: Tony Parker...George Hill
SG: Roger Mason Jr....Manu Ginobili
SF: Richard Jefferson...Bruce Bowen
PF: Drew Gooden...Matt Bonner...Ian Mahinmi
C: Tim Duncan...Fabricio Oberto

They probably still need one more decent big to come off the bench, but that's definitely a Top 3 squad. In the (ridiculously) early forecast forecast for next season, they have jumped ahead of Cleveland and Orlando.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

ESPN is reporting that Bowen and Oberto will be released after the deal is announced


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Now if they could only get rid of Matt Bonner for a decent big then it'd be even more sweet for the preseason Spurs.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I mean if they release Bowen and Oberto and both guys go back to San Antonio as minimum salary players, the Spurs essentially got Jefferson for Kurt Thomas.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Yea much like a trade they did with Brent Barry a couple years back but I can't even remember the details. Barry was traded as fodder but then was later released and picked up by the Spurs again.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

HKF said:


> I mean if they release Bowen and Oberto and both guys go back to San Antonio as minimum salary players, the Spurs essentially got Jefferson for Kurt Thomas.


Pretty Much


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

HKF said:


> I mean if they release Bowen and Oberto and both guys go back to San Antonio as minimum salary players, the Spurs essentially got Jefferson for Kurt Thomas.


As if this wasn't expected.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

HKF said:


> Croco, the Spurs lost to the Mavs because they had no one who could create their own shot outside of Parker and Duncan in the playoffs. I mean they got stomped by the Mavs, Jefferson doesn't have to spot up exclusively and what would be the point of trading for him to do that. This guy is one of the best slashers in the league and with a guy like Duncan there to finish, having him and Parker out there makes the team even more dangerous.
> 
> Finley used to be a great slasher, but he's too old now. Like I said, Gasol is better than Jefferson, but let's remember that when Pau was getting swept out every year and RJ was making runs with the Nets, no one thought Gasol was "THAT" much better. I think Pau is better, but Jefferson isn't a Corey Maggette or Al Thornton here. He's been a contributor on some really good playoff teams as part of a big 3.


This is true, much of his role also depends on Ginobili though. If he is healthy and ready to go, Jefferson will be relegated to the fourth option and not touch the ball as much, thus making him less effective offensively. 

I don't think this is the last we have heard from the Spurs over the summer.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Wouldn't shock me to see David Lee signed and traded for Ginobili.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

HKF said:


> Wouldn't shock me to see David Lee signed and traded for Ginobili.


That would be incredible for the Spurs.


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## Brandon Real (Mar 14, 2006)

Would have been more formidable if this was 2005 IMO. But it does keep the Spurs window open in Duncan's final productive years.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Pretty good trade if their core can stay healthy.


But I don't see SA trading Manu. They'll keep him longer than they should.


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## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

lakeshows said:


> Getting 20/9/2 from the 4/5 position is much more valuable than getting 17/4/3 from a wing position. And lol at Rawse claiming the 30th pick in 2010 and Darrell Arthur or Marc Gasol are building blocks for anything other than mediocrity or the lottery.


it's still lopsided deal nonetheless. both trades are salary dump. I don't really mind these kind of trades, it's just funny how pop complains about it and does it right after. so he is going to veto his own trade? **** no



croco said:


> There is no such thing like fair trades in the NBA, both have to agree and eventually someone will always be declared the winner of a trade. As long as all parties have to agree, it can't be considered unfair.


i was being sarcastic. though i'm surprised milwaukee didnt end up with a 1st round pick.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Blech. I've never really liked Jefferson, but this should definitely help the Spurs improve. Here's hoping for some more big moves this offseason. Always fun to have things shake up.

Hoping for the Rockets to do something good - Brent Barry needs another title.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

ehmunro said:


> No they're not.


they aren't a dime a dozen, but is jefferson even an above average starter at his position?

lebron, carmelo, durant, granger, pierce, igoudala, and butler are all significantly better than he is. then you've got hedo, josh howard, salmons, gerald wallace, prince, and gay that i'd take over him as well. that's 13 guys at his position i'd take over him and puts him in the stephen jackson/corey maggette range. not dime a dozen, but by no means a special player.

that said, he's a big pickup for the spurs and is a huge upgrade over finley/bowen at the 3. as long as duncan stays relatively healthy, the spurs should win 60 games next season and now they do have the backcourt depth they need if manu can't stay healthy.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> they aren't a dime a dozen, but is jefferson even an above average starter at his position?
> 
> lebron, carmelo, durant, granger, pierce, igoudala, and butler are all significantly better than he is. then you've got hedo, josh howard, salmons, gerald wallace, prince, and gay that i'd take over him as well. that's 13 guys at his position i'd take over him and puts him in the stephen jackson/corey maggette range. not dime a dozen, but by no means a special player.
> 
> that said, he's a big pickup for the spurs and is a huge upgrade over finley/bowen at the 3. as long as duncan stays relatively healthy, the spurs should win 60 games next season and now they do have the backcourt depth they need if manu can't stay healthy.


Prince isn't better than Jefferson. Neither are Salmons, Gerald Wallace or Gay. He's easily J-Ho's equivalent. Is he an all star? No. But he's a damned good player, and just what the doctor ordered for San Antonio.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Rocketeer, come on. When did Iguodala, Gay, Wallace, Salmons, Butler or Prince become better than RJ? That is the definition of arguable. Heck Granger is in there as well. Gerald Wallace and John Salmons have never been better than Richard Jefferson and neither are Iggy or Gay. Jefferson always destroys Prince head to head, which leaves Caron Butler and Jefferson has performed much better than Butler has when it counts... in the playoffs.

I just don't see how you can with a straight face say all those guys are better.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

HKF said:


> Rocketeer, come on. When did Iguodala, Gay, Wallace, Salmons, Butler or Prince become better than RJ? That is the definition of arguable. Heck Granger is in there as well. Gerald Wallace and John Salmons have never been better than Richard Jefferson and neither are Iggy or Gay. Jefferson always destroys Prince head to head, which leaves Caron Butler and Jefferson has performed much better than Butler has when it counts... in the playoffs.
> 
> I just don't see how you can with a straight face say all those guys are better.


igoudala and caron aren't arguable. both are significantly better than jefferson.

the other guys are arguable, but i can and just did say that i feel they are better. and really, you can say some of those guys aren't better than jefferson was a few years ago, but he's not exactly the same player either. he's always been a little overrated defensively and i'm not sure why you're pretending he's been some huge postseason performer. of all the times he's been in the playoffs, he only had a huge performance one year.


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

It's like the Spurs can never be written off.


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## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

RJ just looks like a Spur. What a great pickup. All they need now is another formidable big and they're good to go.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> igoudala and caron aren't arguable. both are significantly better than jefferson.
> 
> the other guys are arguable, but i can and just did say that i feel they are better. and really, you can say some of those guys aren't better than jefferson was a few years ago, but he's not exactly the same player either. he's always been a little overrated defensively and i'm not sure why you're pretending he's been some huge postseason performer. of all the times he's been in the playoffs, he only had a huge performance one year.


I'm in agreement with rocketeer on this one...


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

rocketeer said:


> igoudala and caron aren't arguable. both are significantly better than jefferson.
> 
> the other guys are arguable, but i can and just did say that i feel they are better. and really, you can say some of those guys aren't better than jefferson was a few years ago, but he's not exactly the same player either. he's always been a little overrated defensively and i'm not sure why you're pretending he's been some huge postseason performer. of all the times he's been in the playoffs, he only had a huge performance one year.


What makes Caron Butler better than Richard Jefferson? Seriously I really need to know what makes him significantly better. Iguodala is certainly not significantly better than RJ right now and Jefferson has always been consistent in the playoffs when the stakes were much higher. 

I just don't see how you can claim either guy is better. What makes them better? Butler has had all-star seasons, but Jefferson has put up considerable numbers and has been snubbed. Iggy still can't make a jumpshot and has had a few good seasons, but what makes him "significantly better." Neither guy is making their teams outstanding. 

To me, they are all in the same boat and putting RJ down to build those two up and others who are just mediocre is weird. I mean you named John Salmons and Gerald Wallace of all players.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

To me, the four best small forwards in the NBA are:

1. Lebron 2. Carmelo 3. Pierce 4. Durant 

And then 5 is a bunch of guys who can lay claim to being the 5th best in the league.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

RJ has regressed into a poor defender, he substituted defense for offense. RJ is a poor one on one player, RJ is a poor passer. His offense doesn't elevate him over some of the guys on rocketeer's list. I still think he is a great addition to the Spurs and a solid 3rd option.

As for the Spurs on second thought, they are probably below the Lakers and Nuggets as is.


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

now if only all the contenders can stay HEALTHY, word of the day, till the postseason


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

HB said:


> RJ has regressed into a poor defender, he substituted defense for offense. RJ is a poor one on one player, RJ is a poor passer. His offense doesn't elevate him over some of the guys on rocketeer's list. I still think he is a great addition to the Spurs and a solid 3rd option.
> 
> As for the Spurs on second thought, they are probably below the Lakers and Nuggets as is.


a healthy Spurs would destroy the Nuggets


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

chairman5 said:


> a healthy Spurs would destroy the Nuggets


You wish


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

HB said:


> RJ has regressed into a poor defender, he substituted defense for offense. RJ is a poor one on one player, RJ is a poor passer. His offense doesn't elevate him over some of the guys on rocketeer's list. I still think he is a great addition to the Spurs and a solid 3rd option.
> 
> As for the Spurs on second thought, they are probably below the Lakers and Nuggets as is.


He's defense will look better in the spurs systems with tim duncan behind him than it did when he was with milwaukee


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

What a great trade for the Spurs, immediately vaults them back into contender status with the Lakers in the West. The only thing stopping them from serious contention is an old, declining bench, which they can still address. However, they have to assume Ginobili isn't going to be hurt again, which is iffy, and hope that Duncan can put together another year of prime ball. Tim looked old last season, is 33, but IMO should still have another prime year left before declining noticeably (but still putting up All Star numbers). 



VanillaPrice said:


> That would be incredible for the Spurs.


You mean incredibly bad? That would make them worse, Lee isn't as good as Manu by any stretch unless we're assuming Manu will never be the same after his last two injuries.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> igoudala and caron aren't arguable. both are significantly better than jefferson.
> 
> the other guys are arguable, but i can and just did say that i feel they are better. and really, you can say some of those guys aren't better than jefferson was a few years ago, but he's not exactly the same player either. he's always been a little overrated defensively and i'm not sure why you're pretending he's been some huge postseason performer. of all the times he's been in the playoffs, he only had a huge performance one year.


How is Caron Butler better than Jefferson? 
Please tell me you have something more than PER.


Jefferson is more complete at both ends. He is better defensively, he is better at drawing fouls, and you can't sag off him or he will drill the 3 at a high rate. Get up on him and he can get to the hoop or draw the foul.
That completeness is what all perimeter players strive to achieve, and Butler has never gotten there.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Pimped Out said:


> He's defense will look better in the spurs systems with tim duncan behind him than it did when he was with milwaukee


Man you guys act like Tim is still 24, he's not that all world defender anymore. He cant do it all. He'll do his fair share, but he's not going to be dissuading anyone from going into the paint thats for sure.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HKF said:


> To me, the four best small forwards in the NBA are:
> 
> 1. Lebron 2. Carmelo 3. Pierce 4. Durant
> 
> And then 5 is a bunch of guys who can lay claim to being the 5th best in the league.


I'd probably take Durant at #3 over Pierce, but we're quibbling at that point. Those four are definitely better than the rest.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

HKF said:


> What makes Caron Butler better than Richard Jefferson? Seriously I really need to know what makes him significantly better. Iguodala is certainly not significantly better than RJ right now and Jefferson has always been consistent in the playoffs when the stakes were much higher.


caron is a better scorer, a better creator, a better passer, a better rebounder, a better defender. he's basically just better at every aspect of the game. jefferson is a better 3 point shooter and that's it.

it's pretty much the same story with igoudala as well except that igoudala has a bigger defensive edge and it's arguable how much better of a scorer igoudala is.

i'm seriously shocked that there are multiple people here arguing that jefferson is on the same level as those guys.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> caron is a better scorer, a better creator, a better passer, a better rebounder, a better defender. he's basically just better at every aspect of the game. jefferson is a better 3 point shooter and that's it.
> 
> it's pretty much the same story with igoudala as well except that igoudala has a bigger defensive edge and it's arguable how much better of a scorer igoudala is.
> 
> i'm seriously shocked that there are multiple people here arguing that jefferson is on the same level as those guys.




Neither of these guys are known as playmakers. There is no way you can state with any certainty who the better playmaker and passer is. Butler is not the better defender. He used to have one of the worst defensive stances in basketball. It has improved, and he forces steals, but Jefferson has always been the smarter defender, and better at keeping his man in front of him. Butler is maybe the more aggressive scorer and has a better pull-up game off the dribble, but Jefferson tops him overall because he doesn't have the hole in his perimeter game that Butler has.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I just don't see how Caron Butler is all those things. You know Bogut and Redd went down and RJ at least held the fort down, Haywood and Arenas go down and the Wizards season goes right into the tank. I just don't see where Butler is better in all those categories. I think Butler is the one who is a run of the mill player, maybe because he's paid less, but you make it seem like he's worlds better than Jefferson and that's just not true.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Should Spurs sign Sheed MLE?


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

some people here really need to relax.. the comment pop made about the gasol trade was in banter. you don't need to take it personal. pop actually jokes around, and so does tim duncan.


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## eddymac (Jun 23, 2005)

Jefferson always looks to create for others, he us unselfish. But Caron is the better scorer, Jefferson is the better passer, and rebounder, and he gets the edge defensively.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Good trade for the Spurs - they'll be in contention yet again.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

HKF said:


> I just don't see how Caron Butler is all those things. You know Bogut and Redd went down and RJ at least held the fort down, Haywood and Arenas go down and the Wizards season goes right into the tank. I just don't see where Butler is better in all those categories. I think Butler is the one who is a run of the mill player, maybe because he's paid less, but you make it seem like he's worlds better than Jefferson and that's just not true.


The Bucks were over .500 when Bogut and Redd went down and their season went right in the crapper with Jefferson in the lead


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

the milwaukee journal sentinal is reporting that the bucks have traded obeerto to the pistons for amir johnson


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



bootstrenf said:


> why so defensive???
> 
> i asked a simple question.....i was just wondering if i missed out on a trade or something.....
> 
> ...


hey dornado, you gave me an infraction for this post??? are you ****ing kidding me???


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

HKF said:


> I just don't see how Caron Butler is all those things. You know Bogut and Redd went down and RJ at least held the fort down, Haywood and Arenas go down and the Wizards season goes right into the tank. I just don't see where Butler is better in all those categories. I think Butler is the one who is a run of the mill player, maybe because he's paid less, but you make it seem like he's worlds better than Jefferson and that's just not true.


that wizards team started mike james for 50 games and dominic mcguire for 56 games. it's hard to put their season going into the tank on caron butler not stepping up when there were injuries. the wizards were a 3 man team and lost one of those guys along with their defensive inside presence. it's no shocker they were bad.

and i'd dispute jefferson holding down the fort. arenas played 2 games. redd played 33. haywood played 6 games. bogut played 36. that right there seems like enough to explain the bucks winning 15 more games than the wizards.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



bootstrenf said:


> hey dornado, you gave me an infraction for this post??? are you ****ing kidding me???


Take it up with him via PM


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

bballlife said:


> Neither of these guys are known as playmakers. There is no way you can state with any certainty who the better playmaker and passer is. Butler is not the better defender. He used to have one of the worst defensive stances in basketball. It has improved, and he forces steals, but Jefferson has always been the smarter defender, and better at keeping his man in front of him. Butler is maybe the more aggressive scorer and has a better pull-up game off the dribble, but Jefferson tops him overall because he doesn't have the hole in his perimeter game that Butler has.


there's a reason that butler and igoudala have been among the league leaders in assists at their position the last few years. it's because they are playmakers.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



roux2dope said:


> Take it up with him via PM


i mean, did you feel like i was maliciously attacking you???


i've seen a lot worse with nary a warning......this is crap.....


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



bootstrenf said:


> i mean, did you feel like i was maliciously attacking you???
> 
> 
> i've seen a lot worse with nary a warning......this is crap.....


You did make a retard referance to another member, lets handle this via the pm


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

so anyways, Richard Jefferson is not a bad player, i think he can help the Spurs


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Cap said:


> What a great trade for the Spurs, immediately vaults them back into contender status with the Lakers in the West. The only thing stopping them from serious contention is an old, declining bench, which they can still address. However, they have to assume Ginobili isn't going to be hurt again, which is iffy, and hope that Duncan can put together another year of prime ball. Tim looked old last season, is 33, but IMO should still have another prime year left before declining noticeably (but still putting up All Star numbers).
> 
> 
> 
> You mean incredibly bad? That would make them worse, Lee isn't as good as Manu by any stretch unless we're assuming Manu will never be the same after his last two injuries.


Manu is somewhat of an injury risk at this point, and Lee is a very nice player who would work extremely well with Duncan, if only for the fact that he wouldn't be camping behind the three point line. I'd love that trade for San Antonio.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



roux2dope said:


> You did make a retard referance to another member, lets handle this via the pm



one more for the public to see before i go to pm......


people make jokes about kids getting decapitated at magic mountain, about people getting beheaded, dismembered, and canibalized on a greyhound bus, people joke about domestic violence....and posters attack each other all the freaking time with much harsher words....someone actually told chris richards to go shoot himself, or kill himself.....


people make comments that raping your wife is okay because she owes her vagina to you......all these things are okay to post, but a simple reference to Life Goes On, is infraction-worthy???


smells like a load of crap to me......



if a *CM* sees this, would you remove the infraction points? i'm not troll poster, i've been here a while, and i don't cause trouble.....i get heated some times, but that's only because i'm passionate about some things......i contribute regularly, and the board would be a worse place without me...


it's not even about the points, it's the principle......

if a CM genuinely thinks i deserve it, then fine, but in my heart of hearts, i know it's crap......


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Ballscientist said:


> Should Spurs sign Sheed MLE?


No.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



bootstrenf said:


> one more for the public to see before i go to pm......
> 
> 
> people make jokes about kids getting decapitated at magic mountain, about people getting beheaded, dismembered, and canibalized on a greyhound bus, people joke about domestic violence....and posters attack each other all the freaking time with much harsher words....someone actually told chris richards to go shoot himself, or kill himself.....
> ...


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

FreeMason Jr. said:


> RealGM reports that Oberto's been traded to the Pistons for Amir Johnson.


I reported it...dammit :evil:


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## FreeMason Jr. (Jul 12, 2004)

RealGM reports that Oberto's been traded to the Pistons for Amir Johnson.

Edit: and Yahoo reports that the Pistons will buy Oberto out.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Damn, hot potato Oberto-style.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> there's a reason that butler and igoudala have been among the league leaders in assists at their position the last few years. it's because they are playmakers.


Playing nearly 40 minutes a night in a noonball offense and getting 4 assists a game doesn't make you a playmaker.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

FreeMason Jr. said:


> RealGM reports that Oberto's been traded to the Pistons for Amir Johnson.
> 
> Edit: and Yahoo reports that the Pistons will buy Oberto out.


And anyone with common sense reports he's signing right back to the Spurs..... possibly before the draft.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

When Butler was in Miami he started some games at PG. He's a good playmaker.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

HB said:


> Man you guys act like Tim is still 24, he's not that all world defender anymore. He cant do it all. He'll do his fair share, but he's not going to be dissuading anyone from going into the paint thats for sure.


He's regressed, but he's not shawn bradley. He is still one of the best defensive PF/C in the game.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Jefferson to Spurs*



bootstrenf said:


> hey dornado, you gave me an infraction for this post??? are you ****ing kidding me???


LAME! Free Boots! (the poster not the footwear)


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Cap said:


> You mean incredibly bad? That would make them worse, Lee isn't as good as Manu by any stretch unless we're assuming Manu will never be the same after his last two injuries.


I think that after all the wear and tear on Manu's body that he's a complete shell of his former self, so yeah, I highly doubt that we'll be seeing anything close to a prime Manu next year. He's not as effective unless he can play recklessly, and his body can't take the beating anymore, he's done.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> And anyone with common sense reports he's signing right back to the Spurs..... possibly before the draft.


quite possibly.. not that he's a difference maker. i really wonder why the spurs like to overstock on stiffs when they have tim duncan. another half decent bigman would solidify their front court.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> And anyone with common sense reports he's signing right back to the Spurs..... possibly before the draft.


That wouldn't be possible.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

VanillaPrice said:


> I think that after all the wear and tear on Manu's body that he's a complete shell of his former self, so yeah, I highly doubt that we'll be seeing anything close to a prime Manu next year. He's not as effective unless he can play recklessly, and his body can't take the beating anymore, he's done.


maybe you're right....


manu was already pretty old when he came into the league.....i think he was either 25 or 26 as a rookie......it figures that he already had a lot of wear and tear on his body before he even stepped foot on an nba court.....couldn't have been all too good for his longevity...


and once his athleticism goes, so does the style of game he plays.....


funny thing is, i think he would make a great point guard in this league.....


he has great court vision, he is a good passer, he has good handles, and he would create a lot of matchup problems on the offensive end because of his size.....he might struggle on defense, but his size would make up for a lot...


he is one of the smartest players in this league and he always knows what he and his team need to do to win a game.....that is why i think he would make an excellent pg in this league...


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

bootstrenf said:


> maybe you're right....
> 
> 
> manu was already pretty old when he came into the league.....i think he was either 25 or 26 as a rookie......it figures that he already had a lot of wear and tear on his body before he even stepped foot on an nba court.....couldn't have been all too good for his longevity...
> ...


Why would they want to take minutes away from Parker? And watching him try and keep up with someone like Chris Paul or Devin Harris would be painful.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

He might have size but he would be too slow to keep up.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

lakeshows said:


> Getting 20/9/2 from the 4/5 position is much more valuable than getting 17/4/3 from a wing position. *And lol at Rawse claiming the 30th pick in 2010 and Darrell Arthur or Marc Gasol are building blocks for anything other than mediocrity or the lottery.*


Yeah, Einstein, LOL at Rawse not going along with the rest of the sheep who said Marc Gasol was a mediocrity or a nothing.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Are there still any losers left that think the Gasol trade was terrible? Nope.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

i sometimes wonder what the lakers would be like if they had kept m.gasol and traded kwame's expiring contract for a real pg.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Cap said:


> Are there still any losers left that think the Gasol trade was terrible? Nope.


I like Marc Gasol alot, now that thats out of the way nobody can say with certainty that the Lakers would have won it all last year without Gasol, that trade netted them a championship and they are clearly the favorite this year, further more nobody knows what Marc Gasols development may have been like in LA, he may have been buried behind Bynum and may have not gotten his shot.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

roux2dope said:


> I like Marc Gasol alot, now that thats out of the way nobody can say with certainty that the Lakers would have won it all last year without Gasol, that trade netted them a championship and they are clearly the favorite this year, further more nobody knows what Marc Gasols development may have been like in LA, he may have been buried behind Bynum and may have not gotten his shot.


Yeah, but he's saying that the trade doesn't look as bad as people seemed to think it was.

That's very fair to say.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Yeah, what I'm saying is that the Grizzlies netted themselves a 15/10/2/62%FGP C who is fantastically adept with the ball and makes very few genuinely dumb mistakes. He slimmed down compared to his rookie year and he improved noticeably from 1st to 2nd season skill-wise. Which means he's showing some semblance of work ethic and he's only 24. I'd say it's pretty clear the trade was extraordinarily fair considering their main concern was to get out from under Pau's contract and save millions, which they also did. 

Barring injury, the Gasol trade was no worse than about the median in superstar/border-line superstar trades, be it Rasheed at the 04 deadline, the original Carter trade to the Nets, KG to the Celtics, etc.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

roux2dope said:


> I like Marc Gasol alot, now that thats out of the way nobody can say with certainty that the Lakers would have won it all last year without Gasol, that trade netted them a championship and they are clearly the favorite this year, further more nobody knows what Marc Gasols development may have been like in LA, he may have been buried behind Bynum and may have not gotten his shot.


Yup, the trade only looks somewhat decent in hindsight and if you rate Marc Gasol on a high level. That trade was still one of the most lopsided and game changing trades in the NBA; I remember the ESPN crew was trying to pry that rant out of SVG earlier in the season about how he felt on that trade even after Marc's decent numbers this season and his opinion is still the same. Its great for Memphis that a late second round pick has performed above expectations but it doesn't change the horrible nature of the trade in the first place.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*AS for the Spurs, not a positive article*



> LOS ANGELES – The San Antonio Spurs had wanted his old running mate, Vince Carter(notes), but the Orlando Magic made the offer that most intrigued the New Jersey Nets. So, the Spurs’ front office turned to the Milwaukee Bucks for younger legs and a modestly smaller contract, believers that Richard Jefferson(notes) could make a dramatic difference in their chase of the Los Angeles Lakers.
> 
> The Bucks wanted Jefferson out of there so badly, they took nothing but expiring contracts and washed-up vets. This wasn’t cost-cutting as much as cutting their losses. Bucks coach Scott Skiles had little use for Jefferson, found him to be a shell of his old self and was glad to move him. San Antonio didn’t need Jefferson to be a star, but they did need him to be a competent complement to their championship core.
> 
> ...


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Popovich is using him wrong. You have Parker, Jefferson and Ginobili on the wings. Stop playing strictly half-court basketball. Why not get a few baskets in transition? And before someone remarks that I am wrong, just remember that Pop turned Hedo Turkoglu into a standstill jumpshooter when he's obviously proven he's much better than that. I honestly think Pop just doesn't know how to adjust his system at all to the talent on the team.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Jefferson's offense isn't even the biggest problem the Spurs have with him. Its everything else: defense, rebounding, chemistry, hustle, etc. He's simply been an empty stat sheet in all regards and his offensive role on the team is at best a fourth option and even fifth since George Hill has found his shot better than Dick has.

You can't utilize him in transition because the Spurs are struggling to get the defensive stops to get in transition in the first place. That said, Jefferson is getting all sorts of open opportunities but his confidence seems to be at an all time career low. The past two times he's tried to go for his trademark reverse dunks he's been blocked. He's definitely in a funk and its not so much the system but the entire team's lack of focus on the defensive end. 

The only bright spots I seen in RJ is that he can't get any worse, he's still better than last year's combo of Udoka and an ancient Bowen, and that his contract will be a good trading chip for a team looking to make space in a year or two.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

HB said:


> *AS for the Spurs, not a positive article*


That is definitely a very unflattering article on him. That's why I like Popovich, he doesn't sugarcoat his thoughts.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

I haven't watched them this season. Why is he playing so badly? Has he lost a step?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Sliccat said:


> I haven't watched them this season. Why is he playing so badly? Has he lost a step?


It's a combination of that and the system he plays in. He was really only effective in an offense where he had an elite playmaker dishing him the ball in transition. He simply just isn't a good halfcourt player, and the Spurs trying to make him something that he's not is just going to make him ineffective.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Honest to god, if you gave me my choice of Kurt thomas and Jefferson right now I would take Thomas ($ has nothing to do with that), and that doesnt include all the money we saved to sign guys like ilyasova, delfino and warrick. It may have not looked like it at the time but this was a very good deal for John Hammond and the Bucks


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

VanillaPrice said:


> It's a combination of that and the system he plays in. He was really only effective in an offense where he had an elite playmaker dishing him the ball in transition. He simply just isn't a good halfcourt player, and the Spurs trying to make him something that he's not is just going to make him ineffective.


Wow, 20 fast break points a game by Jefferson! He must be the best outlet runner in NBA HISTORY!!!! Sessions must be the best PG in the NBA!


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Hyperion said:


> Wow, 20 fast break points a game by Jefferson! He must be the best outlet runner in NBA HISTORY!!!! Sessions must be the best PG in the NBA!


He was fed early and often in transition and it opened up the other parts of his game. It's also not a secret that he benefited playing in an up tempo system that didn't require him to isolate in a halfcourt situation.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Hyperion said:


> Wow, 20 fast break points a game by Jefferson! He must be the best outlet runner in NBA HISTORY!!!! Sessions must be the best PG in the NBA!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

roux2dope said:


> Honest to god, if you gave me my choice of Kurt thomas and Jefferson right now I would take Thomas ($ has nothing to do with that), and that doesnt include all the money we saved to sign guys like ilyasova, delfino and warrick. It may have not looked like it at the time but this was a very good deal for John Hammond and the Bucks


But if you had to pick between Ridnour and Jennings who do you take?


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## FreeMason Jr. (Jul 12, 2004)

VanillaPrice said:


> He was fed early and often in transition and it opened up the other parts of his game.


You're right. And that's still true to this season. The few good games he's had for San Antonio, the Spurs made a point to get him the ball early and often.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Finley and Bowen were the SF's in that system before Jefferson. Finley could shoot from anywhere anytime. Bowen was really good for the corner 3. RJ really is not a player who can rely on his jumper. He has to slash and occasionally hit a J. 

They already have Parker and Manu who slash. They need RJ to open the floor and he doesn't do that. That's why Bonner, Hill and Mason become more important as they can shoot.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Sliccat said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


or he's just making things up to sound like he really analyzed Jefferson's career. Jefferson was an All Star player. He had a solid jumpshot and was very good at getting to the lane and was an above average defender. He's tanked in ALL categories. He misses open shots, layups, blows defensive assignments, and is generally not helping the team in any way. These are dumb arguments that try and paint a player as "lucky" rather than good. Here's a news flash for you: you have to be excellent to make it to the NBA and you have to be elite to be a starter let alone an All Star regardless who plays next to you.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Hyperion said:


> or he's just making things up to sound like he really analyzed Jefferson's career. Jefferson was an All Star player. He had a solid jumpshot and was very good at getting to the lane and was an above average defender. He's tanked in ALL categories. He misses open shots, layups, blows defensive assignments, and is generally not helping the team in any way. These are dumb arguments that try and paint a player as "lucky" rather than good. Here's a news flash for you: you have to be excellent to make it to the NBA and you have to be elite to be a starter let alone an All Star regardless who plays next to you.


RJ was never an All Star


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Once RJ learned to shoot, he became a mediocre player.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

cpawfan said:


> RJ was never an All Star


meh, close enough. I took a shot that he was since nearly anyone could be an All Star in the East from 2001-present


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

> or he's just making things up to sound like he really analyzed Jefferson's career. Jefferson was an All Star player





> meh, close enough. I took a shot that he was since nearly anyone could be an All Star in the East from 2001-present


Irony. Far out.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)




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## HB (May 1, 2004)

> On his SIRIUS XM Mad Dog Radio show “Stack’s House,” Bucks' swingman Jerry Stackhouse talks about Richard Jefferson's performance in San Antonio: "I just don’t think he’s as good as everybody talked him up to be, to me. I mean, I think he has some talent, he’s an athlete but a lot of the best basketball we’ve seen from Richard Jefferson came when he played with Jason Kidd, when he was just pretty much spoon-fed at the basket and was able to run out and just be an athlete. When it comes down to a half-court set and just being able to play half-court basketball I don’t think he’s that special of a player, in my opinion. It’s just one of those things where it’s just not a good fit. It wasn’t a great fit for him in Milwaukee when he was here. He had some big games but really nothing special. He wasn’t a guy that really helped them go to another level as far as wins and losses. And I think they’re finding out in San Antonio that he may not be the right fit for what they want to do. If I know [head coach Gregg] Popovich like I know him I could very easily see him not in a San Antonio uniform next year."


.....


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Hyperion said:


> or he's just making things up to sound like he really analyzed Jefferson's career. Jefferson was an All Star player. He had a solid jumpshot and was very good at getting to the lane and was an above average defender. He's tanked in ALL categories. He misses open shots, layups, blows defensive assignments, and is generally not helping the team in any way. These are dumb arguments that try and paint a player as "lucky" rather than good. Here's a news flash for you: you have to be excellent to make it to the NBA and you have to be elite to be a starter let alone an All Star regardless who plays next to you.


Jefferson hasn't been a good defender in a couple of years now. He's never been that good of a shooter (if anything he's doing it better now than he has in the past, but he still isn't terribly good). When he gets the chance to get into the lane he still finishes effectively, but in San Antonio he doesn't get those opportunities as he did in the past. Compare his shot chart from this season to his shot charts from 2006 & 2008 and you'll notice the difference. He's a square peg that the Spurs are attempting to force into a round hole. At least they'll have a fat expiring contract to deal next winter.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Jakain said:


> Yup, the trade only looks somewhat decent in hindsight and if you rate Marc Gasol on a high level. That trade was still one of the most lopsided and game changing trades in the NBA; I remember the ESPN crew was trying to pry that rant out of SVG earlier in the season about how he felt on that trade even after Marc's decent numbers this season and his opinion is still the same. Its great for Memphis that a late second round pick has performed above expectations but it doesn't change the horrible nature of the trade in the first place.


Honestly, if the Lakers had dealt Bynum rather than Gasol there'd be no hope of anyone beating them. They accidentally dealt the better center.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

That is funny coming Stackhouse. His best seasons came on losing teams.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Stack's more or less right but the biggest surprise, offensively, is that RJ's 3P% has fallen from 39% to 34%. That just doesn't work in the Spurs system since it creates open 3's. His free throw percentage is also down 9% but he also has much less attempts. However offensively isn't his biggest issue (he's a fourth, and with the continued improvement from Hill, fifth option) and he's actually shooting better from the field than last year - its his hustle, rebounding, and effort defensively...all of which seem to be improving.

His time in San Antonio has been bumpy to say the least. He cancelled his wedding nearly at the last minute in the summer, he suffered injuries that affected his durability (RJ played every game of the last two seasons), he played several minutes as a PF in San Antonio even though he's a SF, and he's in a system where he's standing still more than he is moving around which hurts his game. At least he's been a class act about it and has acknowledged his disappointments; he also has no problem coming off the bench (and on a team with Manu on the bench..no one should I suppose).

Still an improvement over Ime Udoka and an ancient Bruce Bowen; but definitely a disappointing use of $$$. It'll be interesting to see if they can move him in the offseason or not; in a more uptempo system he can still play.





E.H. Munro said:


> Honestly, if the Lakers had dealt Bynum rather than Gasol there'd be no hope of anyone beating them. They accidentally dealt the better center.


That would be an interesting "what-if". However I don't think the Lakers would've been as strong as they have been without a healthy Bynum. Marc Gasol was also fat and not in NBA ready shape IIRC; not sure how that would've worked with Kobe and LA. Not sure if Memphis was looking to pick up more contracts either but I don't remember what Bynum had then or if its different then his deal now.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Jakain said:


> That would be an interesting "what-if". However I don't think the Lakers would've been as strong as they have been without a healthy Bynum. Marc Gasol was also fat and not in NBA ready shape IIRC; not sure how that would've worked with Kobe and LA. Not sure if Memphis was looking to pick up more contracts either but I don't remember what Bynum had then or if its different then his deal now.


Bynum hasn't exactly been in game shape either. And he was on rookie scale back then. Marc Gasol has been much tougher than Bynum since day 1, and toughness, outside of Mr. Bean, has been a real problem for the Lakers. Having someone like Marc Gasol in the middle would have made them unbeatable.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> Bynum hasn't exactly been in game shape either. And he was on rookie scale back then. Marc Gasol has been much tougher than Bynum since day 1, and toughness, outside of Mr. Bean, has been a real problem for the Lakers. Having someone like Marc Gasol in the middle would have made them unbeatable.


Take this with a truck load of salt, Munro claims Marc is the better of the two Gasol brothers.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

He is. Power forwards that cry don't impress me. Unlike ***** Galore, Marc Gasol is one tough mofo.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

dp


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

^ Yeah, except one Gasol played Dwight Howard to a standstill in an NBA Finals on his way to a title while the other, uh, hasn't. Plus they're going to do it again this year anyway.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Howard was more done in by the inability of Jameer Nelson to get him the frigging ball.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> caron is a better scorer, a better creator, a better passer, a better rebounder, a better defender. he's basically just better at every aspect of the game. jefferson is a better 3 point shooter and that's it.


Agreed. Mavericks 13-1 since the Butler trade.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> He is. Power forwards that cry don't impress me. Unlike ***** Galore, Marc Gasol is one tough mofo.


Luckily its basketball, one of the pansiest sports in the world, and not boxing.

To even try to say Marc Gasol is better than Pau is insane.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

R-Star said:


> Luckily its basketball, one of the pansiest sports in the world, and not boxing.
> 
> To even try to say Marc Gasol is better than Pau is insane.


Ice skating is the gayest. Hockey is done on skates, hence even gayer. Hockey players only fight on the ice because they can't lift their teammates up and throw them for a perfect triple toe loop combo to double axle. 



P.S. Baseball is for pansies.


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