# Jon's 2005 NBA Draft Mock



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

2/12/05

- This is using nbadraft.net's draft's most recent draft order (trades included), as I don't have the time or the energy to figure it all out for myself. 
- I don't know anything about the foreign prospects, so I have tried to place them in the first round with teams either have a history of drafting foreigners or a positional need. 
- My early entry candidates are all players that I think are likely to enter the 2005 draft. I have added a note on additional early entry candidates after the mock. 
- I will update my mock regularly in my personal forum from now until draft night
- To read more of my draft-related thoughts, head over to draftcity.com

1. New Orleans - WF Marvin Williams, 6'9, 230, UNC, (fr)
2. Atlanta - PF/C Andrew Bogut, 7'0, 250, Utah (so)
3. Charlotte - PG Chris Paul, 6'0, 175, Wake Forest (so)
4. Golden State - C Martynas Andriuskevicius, 7'3, 240, Lithuania
5. Utah - PG Raymond Felton, 6'0, 190, UNC (jr)
6. Milwaukee - PF Tiaggo Splitter, 6'11, 240, Brazil
7. New York - PF Chris Taft, 6'10, 260, Pitt (so)
8. Toronto - PG Jarret Jack, 6'3, 200, Georgia Tech (jr)
9. Portland - WG Gerald Green, 6'8, 200, High School
10. New Jersey - PF Fran Vasquez, 6'10, 230, Spain
11. Denver - PF Charlie Villanueva, 6'11, 230, Connecticut (so)
12. Indiana - F Hakim Warrick, 6'8, 220, Syracuse
13. LA Clippers - F Nemanja Aleksandrov, 6'10, 210, Serbia
14. Minnesota - PF Wayne Simien 6'8, 260, Kansas 
15. Toronto - PF Shelden Williams, 6'8, 260, Duke (jr)
16. Phoenix - C Johan Petro, 7'0, 260, France
17. Boston - G Luther Head, 6'3, 190, Illinois
18. Orlando - PG Deron Williams, 6'3, 210, Illinois (jr) 
19. Boston - PF Rony Turiaf, 6'9, 260, Gonzaga
20. Memphis - WG Rudy Fernandez, 6'5, 180, Spain
21. Houston - WF Joey Graham, 6'7, 230, Oklahoma State
22. Denver - WG Rodney Carney, 6'7, 210, Memphis
23. Charlotte - G Guillermo Diaz, 6'2, 180, Miami (so)
24. Detroit - WG Antoine Wright, 6'7, 210, Texas A&M (jr)
25. Utah - PF Vladimir Veermenko, 6'11, 230, Belarus
26. Sacramento - WF Dijon Thompson, 6'7, 210, UCLA
27. Seattle - WG Kennedy Winston, 6'6, 220, Alabama (jr)
28. Miami - PF/C Andray Blatche, 6'11, 230, High School
29. Phoenix - G Louis Williams, 6'2, 175, High School
30. San Antonio - PF Brandon Bass, 6'7, 250, LSU (jr)

Other Potential First Rounders: 
WG Julius Hodge, 6'7, 190, NC State 
WF Danny Granger, 6'8, 220, New Mexico
WG Fransisco Garcia, 6'6, 190, Louisville (jr)
F Jawad Williams, 6'8, 220, UNC
WF Sean Banks, 6'8, 210, Memphis (jr)
WF Quemont Greer, 6'7, 230, DePaul
PG Nate Robinson, 5'7, 170, Washington (jr)
F Ryan Gomes, 6'7, 240, Providence 
PF/C Channing Frye, 6'11, 240, Arizona
PF Lawrence Roberts, 6'8, 250, Mississippi State

Other Underclassmen: Every year, talented kids who haven't had the chance to produce in college/aren't expected to declare, end up declaring because of their draft status. Not only is it the lure of the millions, but it's the smart thing to do. Here is a group of potential first rounders, should they decide to go, at least half of which I expect to declare. I'm not endorsing them to declare, but simply agknowledging the fact that a large number will end up doing just that. They will be added to the mock as I see fit. 

PG John Gilchrist, 6'2, Maryland (jr)
WF Rudy Gay, 6'7, UConn (fr)
PG Daniel Gibson, 6'2, Texas (fr)
PF/C Josh Boone, 6'10, UConn (so)
WG Malik Hairston, 6'6, Oregon (fr)
WG Ronnie Brewer, 6'7, Arkansas (so)
WF Adam Morrison, 6'8, Gonzaga (so)
PF Torin Francis, 6'10, Notre Dame (jr)
WG Hassan Adams, 6'4, Arizona (jr)
PF Lamarcus Aldridge, 6'11, Texas (fr)
PG Mardy Collins, 6'6, Temple (jr)
WG Brandon Roy, 6'5, Washington (jr)
PF Taj Gray, 6'9, Oklahoma (jr)
PG Curtis Stinson, 6'2, Iowa State (so)


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Charlotte has the No.1 and No.3 picks?


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Heh...corrected. 

Two years later, and I'm still thinking the Hornets play in Charlotte...


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

No way that Jarrett Jack goes at #8.....

Rudy Fernandez gets drafted at #9 with Portlands pick......

Replace Francisco Garcia with Dijon Thompson

Besides that a decent mock....


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Fransisco Garcia simply isn't as good of a prospect as Dijon Thompson. If it wasn't for last year's failed attempt to leave early, I'd have Thompson even higher. Everybody has Garcia as a first rounder, but I think that's just because it's the popular thing to do.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

I think the #10 pick belongs to Toronto (this is Philly's pick through the VC trade)


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## Don Corleone (Sep 24, 2004)

I don't think Deron Williams will get drafted.


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## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

Out of the guys you said potentially may go here are the ones I see going.

PG John Gilchrist, 6'2, Maryland (jr)
WG Ronnie Brewer, 6'7, Arkansas (so)
PF Torin Francis, 6'10, Notre Dame (jr)
WG Hassan Adams, 6'4, Arizona (jr)
PF Taj Gray, 6'9, Oklahoma (jr)

Also I don't think Marvin Williams will leave after his frosh year. I think Roy has him convinced to stay at least one or two more years, especially if they don't win the National Championship this year.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Interesting pick for Orlando. If that were to happen, I think it would signal the end of Francis in Orlando.

More likely this draft, Orlando would be either looking for a SG to come off the bench or a tough big man.

Maybe Antoine Wright or Carney - or Simien or Warrick if they are available.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm glad you're not one of those people who think Simien's injuries in college will cause him to drop out of the first. But Minnesota desperately needs some tough wing players right now, not another PF. They will trade down and draft Ismail Muhammed and Francisco Garcia. Or if they aren't intent on resigning Cassell, they can always give Gilchrist a lottery guarantee.

Eventually I think Charlotte will move up to get Bogut. Whether that's a #1 or #2 pick, Bickerstaff will realize putting him next to Emeka gives the Bobcats a great future. But Nyarleans or Atlanta wouldn't mind picking him either, so we'll see what happens.

zagsfan: Jarrett Jack goes 8 because Toronto needs to keep Bosh in Toronto. These guys have GT ties and are close friends.

What's up with no Rashad McCants?

I like Boston's selection of Luther Head. This guy is going to be a rich man's Jason Terry.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> I'm glad you're not one of those people who think Simien's injuries in college will cause him to drop out of the first. But Minnesota desperately needs some tough wing players right now, not another PF. They will trade down and draft Ismail Muhammed and Francisco Garcia. Or if they aren't intent on resigning Cassell, they can always give Gilchrist a lottery guarantee.


I disagree that Minnesota doesn't need another big man. Griffin and Garnett are essentially outside shooters. There is absolutely no low post offense/offensive rebounding on that team, and Simien perfectly fills that Joe Smith/Marc Jackson/Gary Trent role that was so important to the Wolves' previous success. Given the outside shooting ability of Garnett and Griffin, the overall scoring ability of Wally (very underrated), the defensive ability of Hassell, and the presence of one of league's top shooting specialists in Hoiberg, I think the Wolves are set at wing. Like last year proved, the Wolves don't need a superstar athlete at the wing to succeed. They are a shooting team, for sure. 

I could see the Wolves going after a PG if the right one dropped. Jack, Gilchrist, or Deron Williams would be tough to pass up. 



> Eventually I think Charlotte will move up to get Bogut. Whether that's a #1 or #2 pick, Bickerstaff will realize putting him next to Emeka gives the Bobcats a great future. But Nyarleans or Atlanta wouldn't mind picking him either, so we'll see what happens.


I could see it, but I also think GM's don't want to put "all their eggs in one basket", especially when it's not a guarantee that the Okafor/Bogut frontcourt would ever be good enough to lead the Bobcats against some of the titans in the west. Maybe htey would take Bogut if they got the opportunity, but I doubt he slips out of the top 2 and trading up to get him might be a stretch. Chris Paul is a local guy who has many of the same intangibles that Bickerstaff clealry liked last season in Okafor. These are my reasons for the Bobcats being very happy to take one of the two Carolina PG's, Paul or Felton. 



> What's up with no Rashad McCants?


I really don't like McCants as a draft prospect at all. He is a 6'3 wing with no handle and unspectacular athleticism. Furthermore, he is quite soft, and goes entire games without attacking the basket. I don't know why people are hyping so much as a draft prospect. If he played for a non-storied program, nobody would be talking about him. 



> I like Boston's selection of Luther Head. This guy is going to be a rich man's Jason Terry.


He seems like a guy who fits in with what Danny Ainge is trying to do in Boston. Someone on the realgm draft board made a comparison between Head and Devin Harris, and I really like it. Head isn't quite the PG that Harris is, but he also hasn't gotten 2 years of college to practice it. He's the better offensive player of the two.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

> Fransisco Garcia simply isn't as good of a prospect as Dijon Thompson. If it wasn't for last year's failed attempt to leave early, I'd have Thompson even higher. Everybody has Garcia as a first rounder, but I think that's just because it's the popular thing to do.


Dijon Thompson is one dimensional...He can shoot the ball but thats about it....He cant rebound, cant play a lick of defense....Garcia is a very versatile 6'8" SG who is also a decent defender and can pass the ball.....I think that Garcia is a better prospect then most people think, I could see him going around #15 or so.....


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

You must have read last year's scouting report. 

One of the prospects being discussed averages 8.2 rebounds per game and is third in his freaking conference in rebounding. 

The other prospect averaged 4.9 rebounds per game.

I'll let you figure out which one is which. 

Garcia is frail, slow, and always struggles against good competition. He's a great shooter, but I don't think he's got the overall athleticism to do much in the NBA other than be a specialist. I don't know where you get 6'8 from. He's never been listed there, and is actually closer to 6'6 than his listed 6'7. 

Thompson, on the other hand, has the athleticism and body type to make it. Contrary to last year's scouting report, Thompson is putting forth a lot more effort on the glass and on the defensive end. He scores off the dribble, and his midrange dribble-drive jumper is one of the more unstoppable moves in college hoops. He also can take it all the way to the basket. 

Again, why is Garcia the better prospect?


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

I dont see why the wolves would take wayne simeon instead of johan petro... THye need a 7 footer that plays both positions. I would like to see the wolves take fernadez though.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

> Garcia is frail, slow, and always struggles against good competition. He's a great shooter, but I don't think he's got the overall athleticism to do much in the NBA other than be a specialist.


The same could be said for Reggie Miller.....




> Again, why is Garcia the better prospect?


Thompson is a liability on defense....I also see him turn the ball over way too much on fastbreaks.....Meanwhile, I think that their is a lot of interest in a 6'8" shooting guard who lead his teams in blocks.....


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## Charlotte_______ (May 18, 2003)

Don't the Bobcats also own Toronto's pick (lottery-protected) ? Well as much as I want to say your wrong, you more than likely aren't. If Bogut does go 2nd then Paul will be our likely pick. In past I have liked Paul, but after watching him play this season, I regret every compliment I said. He's TJ Ford with a jumper, I just dislike his height. Players I would love to see Charlotte get, Bogut, Splitter, Head, Petro, and Carney.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>zagsfan20</b>!
> 
> 
> The same could be said for Reggie Miller.....
> ...


It's interesting that you have to go back 15 years worth of drafts to find a comparison for Garcia. And you know that he's not 6'8. Why do you keep saying it? 

And nice work. You looked up the stats, and found something bad about Thompson, something good about Garcia. Did you figure out who the better rebounder is? 

Your next step: watch these two play.


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

garcia is an all around player. That is exactly what miller isnt. I dont see any comparison between these 2.

If you are going to say shotting 3s, then you may as well have compared every other 3 point shooter to reggie.........


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Charlotte_______</b>!
> Don't the Bobcats also own Toronto's pick (lottery-protected) ? Well as much as I want to say your wrong, you more than likely aren't. If Bogut does go 2nd then Paul will be our likely pick. In past I have liked Paul, but after watching him play this season, I regret every compliment I said. He's TJ Ford with a jumper, I just dislike his height. Players I would love to see Charlotte get, Bogut, Splitter, Head, Petro, and Carney.


I think it's top 17 protected. I'd be suprised if you saw it before 2007.


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## pspot (Jul 14, 2004)

I agree, that TO doesnt take Jack with their first pick...especially if Green declares because i know they are big on him

here is what i think will happen for the lottery

these are the way i think the teams will finish
and assuming who declares, so that will defintetely have an effect, but for now this is what i think

I did 2 versions just for fun.....

Version 1
1st Pick Atl - Bogut 
2nd Cha - Marvin Jr (assuming he declares, biggest x factor right now)
3rd NO - Taft
4th Mil - Splitter
5th GS - Andriuskeviskius
6th TO - Paul
7th Port - Green (if Declares) if not McCants
8th Uth - Felton
9th NY - Warrick
10th NJ - Villanueve
11th TO - Aleksandrov/Vazquez/Diogu/Francis/Petro ... not sure who we take

Version 2
1st Pick Atl - Paul
2nd Cha - Marvin Jr
3rd NO - Taft
4th Mil - Splitter
5th GS - Bogut (Splitter and Bogut are interchangble)
6th TO - Green (If Declares) if not Felton
7th Por - McCantss
8th Uth - Felton (if available) or D Williams
9th NY - Warrick
10th NJ - Villanueva
11th TO - Jack (if we took Green with the 6th) if Felton refer to first version


For the standings i think Den will have a solid second half, and Bos will win the Atlantic, therefore putting Phi at the 11th pick

For TO, obvioulsy getting Paul would be awsome but not sure who to take at the 11, so im not sure which version i like more, adding Green and Jack would be great 

for the Picks, a lot depends on Marvin Jr, if NC wins the Madness which i think they will, i think he will declare, if they dont its more likely hell go back for unfinished business, so if he doesnt declare then Cha goes for Paul. 
As good as Paul is i think NO, Mil and GS need help upfront more then they are willing to take a chance on Pual's size
I think Port goes for a 2, they just draft Telflair and they for sure arnt going big, so wouldnt it be perfect if they got a bad attitude in McCants, but other then Green there arnt to many good 2s in this draft
I think Warrick is an explosive player which NY would love to bring to their market
and NJ will love Villanuvas size and atheltiscm


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

Every single year there's a player in the draft that gets compared to Reggie Miller. Last year it was Kevin Martin, this year it's Francisco Garcia.

Even though I haven't seen either guy play much, I have a funny feeling that neither of them will have a Hall of Fame career.


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

why is hodge not getting any respect in any mock drafts? The guy is an all around talent.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Charlotte_______</b>!
> Don't the Bobcats also own Toronto's pick (lottery-protected) ? Well as much as I want to say your wrong, you more than likely aren't. If Bogut does go 2nd then Paul will be our likely pick. In past I have liked Paul, but after watching him play this season, I regret every compliment I said. He's TJ Ford with a jumper, I just dislike his height. Players I would love to see Charlotte get, Bogut, Splitter, Head, Petro, and Carney.


Raps aren't making the playoffs. And I think its either top 14 or even 17 protected. 

__________________

If the Raps get out on the other side with Jarrett Jack and Shelden Williams I will jump for cussing joy.

I litterally begged Babcock on live radio to take every look he can at Shelden, not leave leave him like Boozer was left.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sheefo13</b>!
> why is hodge not getting any respect in any mock drafts? The guy is an all around talent.


What does he do well in the league? He's skinny, not overly quick, can't shoot outside...you get the point. Classic college star that doesn't translate into a successful pro.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

> It's interesting that you have to go back 15 years worth of drafts to find a comparison for Garcia. And you know that he's not 6'8. Why do you keep saying it?


I thought of the first person who came to mind, that I thought has a game like Garcia's, and Reggie was who came to mind....I would even say that Garcia is a more complete player then Reggie....

There is such little difference between 6'7" and 6'8" how is that relevant in any way? Have you measured him with a tape measure? Do you know the person that measured him? Anyway whether he is 6'7" or 6'8" he is still a good sized shooting guard who will be hard to defend at the next level.....



> And nice work. You looked up the stats, and found something bad about Thompson, something good about Garcia. Did you figure out who the better rebounder is?


Actually, I didnt look up anything....I live in Pac-10 country and have watched nearly every game that Thompson has played and have seen him get burnt by players like Stoudamire, Tre Simmons and Grunfeld....Flat out the guy is a lazy defensive player.....



> Your next step: watch these two play.


How would you know if i have seen these two play or not??? 

Do you get angry when someone disagrees with you?


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>zagsfan20</b>!
> I thought of the first person who came to mind, that I thought has a game like Garcia's, and Reggie was who came to mind....I would even say that Garcia is a more complete player then Reggie....


So do you think he'll break Reggie's all-time record for three-pointers and be a first-ballot Hall of Famer then?


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> So do you think he'll break Reggie's all-time record for three-pointers and be a first-ballot Hall of Famer then?


I don't think they're saying he'll be as good as Reggie Miller was, but that he has a similar style of play. That's all comparisons should be used for when it comes to players entering the NBA, because it's way too difficult to project the career a player is going to have.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

Francisco Garcia is garbage. Get ready for Reece Gaines 2.0.


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

i am going to have to say i agree with that statement......


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Looks alright. I disagree with the Boston picks though. I don't see us going PF and PG again like we did in the last draft. I'm hoping that Hakim Warrick falls to us, but as we keep winning games, that seems less and less likely. We need a big small forward and the best available Euro who will stay overseas for a year or two with our two picks.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>zagsfan20</b>!
> 
> 
> I thought of the first person who came to mind, that I thought has a game like Garcia's, and Reggie was who came to mind....I would even say that Garcia is a more complete player then Reggie....


Why don't you address the issues I have brought up about his game? How he isn't athletic enough to play the two in the NBA, and not strong enough to play the three. How about how he gets noticeably worse against tough competition? In other threads, you ridiculously inflate Derek Ravio's abilities because he plays well against good competition. Therefore, you have to agree that Garcia's poor play against better, more athletic teams is a serious issue. 



> There is such little difference between 6'7" and 6'8" how is that relevant in any way? Have you measured him with a tape measure? Do you know the person that measured him? Anyway whether he is 6'7" or 6'8" he is still a good sized shooting guard who will be hard to defend at the next level.....


It must be a big deal to you, because you have inflated his height on several occasions now. Why not talk about his height where it is listed? And if you know half as much about college hoops as you purport, you know that players are never listed shorter than they actually are, and in many cases have 1-2 inches added to their height. This is certainly the case with Garcia. 

And just how will he be hard to defend? Because he leads his team in blocks? 



> Actually, I didnt look up anything....I live in Pac-10 country and have watched nearly every game that Thompson has played and have seen him get burnt by players like Stoudamire, Tre Simmons and Grunfeld....Flat out the guy is a lazy defensive player.....


He WAS a lazy defensive player. My guess is that you haven't watched him this year. He's a different players in all areas of his game. Given your warped opinion of Stoudamire, I can understand why you might think it's a bad thing to get burnt by him. But come on. The guys you mention burn defenders on a nightly basis, and are three of the top scorers in the Pac-10. Surely you realize how absurd you sound? 

And the day that Dijon Thompson guards Salim Stoudamire for a long period of time in a basketball game...

Well, that just proves how much basketball knowledge you actually have in your "left pinky". 



> Do you get angry when someone disagrees with you?


I'm not angry. I have no problem when people disagree with me, but what someone comes on this board spouting the unsubstantiated fluff that you have been the last couple of days, don't be surprised when people attempt to confuse you with the facts. It's what we do around here. 

So next time you disagree, attempt to back up your arguments with something other than a blanket "you are wrong" type statement. I don't know if you are capable of this, but please feel free to prove me wrong.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> Looks alright. I disagree with the Boston picks though. I don't see us going PF and PG again like we did in the last draft. I'm hoping that Hakim Warrick falls to us, but as we keep winning games, that seems less and less likely. We need a big small forward and the best available Euro who will stay overseas for a year or two with our two picks.


Do you expect Pierce to be traded? I guess I would think the last thing the Celts need is a bigger SF. But I probably don't know much about the Celts, so fill me in on their situation. It sounds like you think Boston wants a player like Joey Graham. 

It seems that there is a pattern to the kinds of players Danny Ainge drafts, and I tried to pick guys that seem like Ainge-type players. I see Luther Head as a combo in the league, and Turiaf could be a guy that can contribute right away down low.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you expect Pierce to be traded? I guess I would think the last thing the Celts need is a bigger SF. But I probably don't know much about the Celts, so fill me in on their situation. It sounds like you think Boston wants a player like Joey Graham.
> ...


If Pierce keeps up like he has been of late with hustling down the floor and getting into the motion offense and posting up, I do expect Pierce to stay. I think Jiri Weslch is going to be dealt. Hopefully so we can move up and draft Hakim Warrick. As for Joey Graham, if he's at all like Tony Allen, I know they were OSU teammates, then yes, I'd take him to be our backup SF.

As for PG, I think we have an outside shot to keep Payton. If not, its time to give Banks and West a shot instead of getting another young PG to develop. 

Turiaf would be an alright pick if he can play center. Al Jefferson is going to be our PF for 35 minutes a night fo years. Kendrick Perkins is looking like he'll be a starting center for us, but we could use a third young big there. I would prefer it to be a Euro who will stay over there for a season or two while we see what we have on the roster already.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

> Why don't you address the issues I have brought up about his game? How he isn't athletic enough to play the two in the NBA, and not strong enough to play the three.


Athleticsm isnt always the determining factor in a SG.....If you can shoot the ball like Garcia does you'll find your place in the league....You say he's not strong enough to play the three in the league....But neither was Tayshaun Prince coming out of college....What about Josh Childress and Mike Dunleavy all who are not any stronger than Garcia who are making names for themselves in the league......



> Therefore, you have to agree that Garcia's poor play against better, more athletic teams is a serious issue.


Louisville hasnt played much competition this year for this to really be an issue for me....The only true competition he has really faced would be Kentucky in which he struggled from the field but played good defense....He played crappy against Cincinnati this year, however he also played good against your hawkeyes......Last year he ate Cincinnati alive and tore up Marquette while he was at it....He has been struggling this year...but i think anyone would struggle after there brother had been gunned down in front of their house less than a year ago...



> And if you know half as much about college hoops as you purport, you know that players are never listed shorter than they actually are, and in many cases have 1-2 inches added to their height. This is certainly the case with Garcia.


Yeah thats the true deciding factor in knowing alot about college hoops.....Knowing that a player is always listed an 1-2" above what they really are, boy thats true sports knowledge....



> And just how will he be hard to defend? Because he leads his team in blocks?


He will be hard to defend because he is a quick 6'8" shooting guard that can shoot over just about anyone...He will also be a tough player to score on, on the defensive end with his huge wingspan......



> The guys you mention burn defenders on a nightly basis, and are three of the top scorers in the Pac-10.


Well if your expecting him to be a first rounder and be able to play in the NBA he better first learn how to defend the guys in college....We arnt comparing what other college players do defending these players, were talking about Dijon Thompson and he doesnt do it.....



> And the day that Dijon Thompson guards Salim Stoudamire for a long period of time in a basketball game...


Did you not watch the first Arizona/ UCLA game this year?? Salim was tearing up Brian Morrison the first 10 minutes of the game so they switched Thompson over onto Salim and he tore him up from outside too....



> So next time you disagree, attempt to back up your arguments with something other than a blanket "you are wrong" type statement. I don't know if you are capable of this, but please feel free to prove me wrong.


When did i ever use "your wrong" type of statements...?? 

I think sometimes you pull things out of your arse......


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> I would prefer it to be a Euro who will stay over there for a season or two while we see what we have on the roster already.


Yeah, now that I think about it, the Celts are surprisingly balanced. It will be tough to find two guys that really fit, position wise.


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

I don't see the Knicks drafting anyone under 6'10"...period. As amazing and intriguing as Hakim is, he is not what the Knicks need or WANT. There isn't a big man FA out there for Isiah to try to hustle for, so he is looking for a young guy who can anchor the frontline for the next few years. If the Knicks make the lottery, they will go BIG and whoever mocks them drafting someone shorter than 6'10" doesn't really know the Knicks.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

C'mon blabla,

What kind of nit picking comebacks do you have this time???


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, now that I think about it, the Celts are surprisingly balanced. It will be tough to find two guys that really fit, position wise.


Its true. We're looking pretty solid with our depth. I think it all depends on what trades Danny Ainge makes between now and the draft. Jiri Welsch and Mark Blount are, in my opinion, the two that are most likely to be moved. I think both could very well be gone. Ideally, we'd deal them with a first and a second to move up into better first round position. If they both go, then we'd take a big three (maybe Graham, can he shoot?), and another one of those 6-10/11, 260-280 guys like Jefferson and Perkins who can play and defend both center and powerforward.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>zagsfan20</b>!
> 
> 
> Athleticsm isnt always the determining factor in a SG.....If you can shoot the ball like Garcia does you'll find your place in the league....You say he's not strong enough to play the three in the league....But neither was Tayshaun Prince coming out of college....What about Josh Childress and Mike Dunleavy all who are not any stronger than Garcia who are making names for themselves in the league......


Athleticism is very determining for a shooting gaurd. If you don't have at least some of it, you don't make it in the league. The fact that you would even attempt to argue this is downright laughable. It's no different than saying shooting guards don't need to be able to shoot. Every standout wing in the league is at least a competent athlete. Prince and Dunleavy are decent wings, and Childress is garbage. Both Prince and Dunleavy have two inches on Fransisco. Dunleavy is better off the dribble, and Prince is stronger.




> Louisville hasnt played much competition this year for this to really be an issue for me....The only true competition he has really faced would be Kentucky in which he struggled from the field but played good defense....He played crappy against Cincinnati this year, however he also played good against your hawkeyes......Last year he ate Cincinnati alive and tore up Marquette while he was at it....He has been struggling this year...but i think anyone would struggle after there brother had been gunned down in front of their house less than a year ago...


So your response to the fact that he plays poorly against good competition is that he plays poorly against mediocre competition? Try again. 



> Yeah thats the true deciding factor in knowing alot about college hoops.....Knowing that a player is always listed an 1-2" above what they really are, boy thats true sports knowledge....


Nobody ever said it was the determining factor. But you have to pretty far into denial to say that exaggerating heights doesn't exist and you seriously follow college basketball. You are doing it yourself...



> He will be hard to defend because he is a quick 6'8" shooting guard that can shoot over just about anyone...He will also be a tough player to score on, on the defensive end with his huge wingspan......


He's not 6'8. You know this. He can't shoot over just about anyone, because he struggles to shoot over even mediocre college competition. And he's not athletic. Up above you were claiming that he doesn't need to be athletic. Your position changes with every reply...

And he's not going to be a good defender. Where Prince is tough, Garcia is weak. He doesn't have the explosiveness or the strength to be a good defender. 



> Well if your expecting him to be a first rounder and be able to play in the NBA he better first learn how to defend the guys in college....We arnt comparing what other college players do defending these players, were talking about Dijon Thompson and he doesnt do it.....


NOBODY defends Salim Stoudamire at the college level. You know this. I could give you quite a list of guards that have played well against Louisville, but I'm not going to trouble you with it. We both know it exists




> Did you not watch the first Arizona/ UCLA game this year?? Salim was tearing up Brian Morrison the first 10 minutes of the game so they switched Thompson over onto Salim and he tore him up from outside too....


So your argument as for why he stinks at defense is that Salim Stoudamire, one of the top 4 or 5 most unstoppable offensive threats in all of college hoops, was hitting 3's from 25 feet, and Dijon should have stopped him. I think this speaks for itself...



> When did i ever use "your wrong" type of statements...??


Here you are...



> No way that Jarrett Jack goes at #8.....
> 
> Rudy Fernandez gets drafted at #9 with Portlands pick......
> 
> Replace Francisco Garcia with Dijon Thompson


You make no attempt to back up why I am wrong in these instances. Only that I am wrong. I have been able to converse amicably with everyone on this thread, except for you. That's because they bring well thought out, reasonable questions and responses. You should take a look at some of them, and maybe you'll eventually learn how to behave on a message board.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

> Athleticism is very determining for a shooting gaurd. If you don't have at least some of it, you don't make it in the league. The fact that you would even attempt to argue this is downright laughable.


Why are you trying to convince me that Garica is not athletic....He is a guard who leads his teams in blocked shots and steals.....

and it seems like I'm not the only person who thinks so.....Scouting Report 



> Nobody ever said it was the determining factor. But you have to pretty far into denial to say that exaggerating heights doesn't exist and you seriously follow college basketball. You are doing it yourself...


You are trying to imply that i dont know that much about college basketball because i didnt agree with you that college players are listed 1-2" taller than they actually are....Often times they are but it is not always the case...I would like for you to prove to me that ALL players are listed taller than they actually are.....



> He's not 6'8. You know this. He can't shoot over just about anyone, because he struggles to shoot over even mediocre college competition. And he's not athletic. Up above you were claiming that he doesn't need to be athletic. Your position changes with every reply...


How do either of us know whether he is 6'8" or 6'7" and even if he is either height, how much does it really matter....Was Charles Barkeley 6'4", 6'5" or 6'6"???? Or is it really relevant to anything because he was a good power forward anyway....

He doesnt really need to be athletic...Reggie Miller isnt a tremendous athlete and he is a hall of famer....but thats not the case because he is athletic...



> And he's not going to be a good defender. Where Prince is tough, Garcia is weak. He doesn't have the explosiveness or the strength to be a good defender.


How can someone lead their team in every defensive category and be a weak defensive player???? I dont get it ...



> NOBODY defends Salim Stoudamire at the college level.


I beg to differ.....Justin Gray of Wake Forest, Winsome Frazier of Mississippi State, or what about Marc Jackson of Utah they all played Salim great this year defensively.....



> You should take a look at some of them, and maybe you'll eventually learn how to behave on a message board.


Thanks for the message board etiquette 101.......


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

PF Angelo Gigli will be almost surely between the 10th and 20th pick, IMO.


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## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

I'm really intruiged with Torin Francis as a pro prospect, and hope that he drops to the Spurs. He is a big, athletic guy who has decent ability on both ends of the floor. I have only seen 8 or 9 Notre Dame games this year, but from what I've seen, I think he is a mid-late first rounder. What are your thoughts on him, and is there a chance he drops to the Spurs?


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## rapsfan4life (Apr 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Don Corleone</b>!
> I don't think Deron Williams will get drafted.



WTF????? DO you pay attention to mock drafts:no:


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>zagsfan20</b>!
> 
> 
> Why are you trying to convince me that Garica is not athletic....He is a guard who leads his teams in blocked shots and steals.....
> ...


I happen to be a colleague of the guy who wrote that profile - we discuss draft prospects on a nightly basis. Just recently, we both agreed that Garcia is quite overhyped. Did you see nbadraft.net's "stock watch" article? They've got Fransisco Garcia in the "falling" section, and Thompson in the "rising" section. Of course, I have been saying this for the past month. ...kind of sheds a new light on this discussion, doesn't it? 



> You are trying to imply that i dont know that much about college basketball because i didnt agree with you that college players are listed 1-2" taller than they actually are....Often times they are but it is not always the case...I would like for you to prove to me that ALL players are listed taller than they actually are.....


Actually, I'm not trying to prove that at all. I am trying to get you to admit that you knew that colleges either inflate or at the very least accurately list heights, and knowingly listed him taller than he actually is. 



> How do either of us know whether he is 6'8" or 6'7" and even if he is either height, how much does it really matter....Was Charles Barkeley 6'4", 6'5" or 6'6"???? Or is it really relevant to anything because he was a good power forward anyway....


If it truly didn't matter to you, you would call him the 6'7 he's listed at. Which I am doing. I'm not the one going against what's in print. If you think he's 6'8, you better have something to prove it. Asking me how either of us know whether he's really 6'8 proves my point, not yours. 



> He doesnt really need to be athletic...Reggie Miller isnt a tremendous athlete and he is a hall of famer....but thats not the case because he is athletic...


Like I have previously said, you've listed one player, that entered the league 20 years ago. He also happens to be one of the top 5 or 10 greatest outside shooters in the history of the game, and was still significantly more athletic than Garcia. (did you see buzzer-beater dunk he had 2 years ago against NJ? Garcia could never have done that) 



> How can someone lead their team in every defensive category and be a weak defensive player???? I dont get it ...


Because we are talking about college...not all good college players translate into good NBA players. You know, I can't believe I just had to explain that to somebody posting in a draft board. 



> I beg to differ.....Justin Gray of Wake Forest, Winsome Frazier of Mississippi State, or what about Marc Jackson of Utah they all played Salim great this year defensively.....


I congratulate you for going to espn.com, looking at Salim's game log, picking out 3 bad games he had, and listing a shooting guard from the opposing team. You really are talented at that...

Now, back to reality...

When Salim's shot is falling, you can't defend him. You know full well it wasn't falling at the beginning of the year, when he went up against all three of the players you mention. When was the last time somebody did a good job defending him? Maybe it's just that the entire Pac-10 sucks at defense...


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

> I happen to be a colleague of the guy who wrote that profile - we discuss draft prospects on a nightly basis. Just recently, we both agreed that Garcia is quite overhyped. Did you see nbadraft.net's "stock watch" article? They've got Fransisco Garcia in the "falling" section, and Thompson in the "rising" section. Of course, I have been saying this for the past month. ...kind of sheds a new light on this discussion, doesn't it?


Will have to wait to see how Garcia's does in the NCAA tournament until i can say his stock is falling....I agree he hasnt played well against the better competition.....but they havent really played that great of competition yet for that to really matter...Thats good that you and your buddy agree that his stock is falling....Just because you and your "colleague" think his stock is falling doesnt mean that NBA scouts think it is as well.....Wait until he plays competition in the tournament and his predraft work outs until we can make judgement......I remember last year i was arguing with someone about whether Luke Jackson should be a first rounder or not.....I thought he should be and the other guy said he wouldnt even be drafted because he isnt athletic enough.....Jackson ended up doing really well in the predraft camps and he ended up being picked 10th to the Cavs.....



> Actually, I'm not trying to prove that at all. I am trying to get you to admit that you knew that colleges either inflate or at the very least accurately list heights, and knowingly listed him taller than he actually is.


Your "colleague" over at draftcity has him listed a 6'8" as well......But whether he is a 6'7 or 6'8" is pretty irrelevant in the big picture of things.....



> Like I have previously said, you've listed one player, that entered the league 20 years ago. He also happens to be one of the top 5 or 10 greatest outside shooters in the history of the game, and was still significantly more athletic than Garcia. (did you see buzzer-beater dunk he had 2 years ago against NJ? Garcia could never have done that)


20 years ago or yesterday, does it really matter....I have seen Francisco make some highlight type dunks and really athletic defensive, so i disagree there.....

Luke Jackson wasnt considered by many athletic either......



> Because we are talking about college...not all good college players translate into good NBA players. You know, I can't believe I just had to explain that to somebody posting in a draft board.


That could be said for tons of players though....Thats why the draft is a big gamble....I bet when Shane Battier was drafted by Memphis with the 6th pick, they thought he would be better then he was.....What about Jayson Williams and pretty much any Duke guard...or about any player that came out of Syracuse....Personally i thought that Tayshaun Prince was going to be a scrub, but he has turned out to be a pretty damn good player....



> Maybe it's just that the entire Pac-10 sucks at defense...


That might be true....The pac-10 is a very overrated conference....I would make a case that C-USA or WCC are better conferences....But the future is bright in the Pac-10 with the past couple recruiting classes for Oregon, UCLA and Washington......


The bottom line of this discussion is that you dont think Garcia should be a first rounder.....and you think that Thompson should.....I follow college basketball as much or more than most people and I disagree......


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

no response....


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## vadimivich (Mar 29, 2004)

There's no response because he finally became tired of arguing with your nonsense, the same as everyone else on this board. There is literally not a soul who frequents here who agrees with you, you simply have no clue what you are talking about.

You've quickly become therealdeal2.0


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

I consistantly bring facts to the table to back up my statements and people look beyond them because its not the popular choice....

Vadimich, i'm not sure where you came into this conversation......



> You've quickly become therealdeal2.0


Whatever that is suppose to mean....


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## Kekai (Jan 12, 2005)

Yeaya that is a tight draft for the Suns. I hope they get Louis Williams and Petro. That would be awesome. Im kind of hoping for Hassan Adams, Ike Diogu or Channing Frye too for us Suns.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> I disagree that Minnesota doesn't need another big man. Griffin and Garnett are essentially outside shooters. There is absolutely no low post offense/offensive rebounding on that team, and Simien perfectly fills that Joe Smith/Marc Jackson/Gary Trent role that was so important to the Wolves' previous success. Given the outside shooting ability of Garnett and Griffin, the overall scoring ability of Wally (very underrated), the defensive ability of Hassell, and the presence of one of league's top shooting specialists in Hoiberg, I think the Wolves are set at wing. Like last year proved, the Wolves don't need a superstar athlete at the wing to succeed. They are a shooting team, for sure.
> 
> I could see the Wolves going after a PG if the right one dropped. Jack, Gilchrist, or Deron Williams would be tough to pass up.


Szczerbiak, Cassell and Hudson are terrible perimeter defenders. Personally I think they need some toughness besides Hassell on the perimeter, they really should try trading for James Posey. I don't like Griffins game at all considering he is such a weak shooter, but yeah the Wolves would do well with another big man. EJ is getting old, and Olowakandi... is just not a factor.


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## BagFullOTreez (Apr 6, 2003)

Great mock but i dont see Charlie Vilanueva coming out this year. Every on has been complaining about Chris Tafts effort , yet you have Charlie going in the lotto whitout a peep about his motovation. Chris Taft is going to be a beast in the mold of a younge Antonio McDyess. Charlie although skilled, i dont see him doing much more than say Joe Smith.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

That was a great game winning 3 by Garcia....


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

So hitting a 3 makes you a first rounder? We all know he can shoot...


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

> So hitting a 3 makes you a first rounder? We all know he can shoot...


Where did I ever say that? I just said he hit the game winner...


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Raivio had a pretty good game tonight....

29 pts. 6-10 Fg, 5-6 3pt., 12-12 Ft's, 7 assists, 6 Reb, 1 TO.....


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

On draft night you will finally see that Jarrett Jack isn't a lottery pick.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

adam said:


> On draft night you will finally see that Jarrett Jack isn't a lottery pick.


Care to give any reasons?


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

TheATLien said:


> Care to give any reasons?


Glut of PGs. I like him, a lot. But several PGs are going before him. It will come down to how many underclassmen/Euros actually stay in. If they all pull out, he could slide in, IMO.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

adam said:


> On draft night you will finally see that Jarrett Jack isn't a lottery pick.


Why, because nbadraft.net doens't have him as a lotto pick? 

Maybe he does fall out of the lottery...that has nothing to do with the fact that he is a lotto-caliber prospect.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

blabla97 said:


> Why, because nbadraft.net doens't have him as a lotto pick?


Come on now, I think we have all seen Jack play before. Nobody on this site needs nbadraft.net to tell them what to think about him. I just think he isn't any good. I'm not gonna waste my time looking up stats or making dumb comparisons. I'll just leave it that I think he's not good enough for the NBA. We will just have to wait and see on draft night because if it was up to me I wouldn't even waste a second rounder on him.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

I agree, I dont think that Jack is everything everybody cracks him out to be....He turns the ball over to much for a PG and his jump shot is way to inconsistent....


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

I can't see Fransico Garcia not being a 1st round pick....there have been too many guys listed as too slow, too weak, too unathleitc, that nonetheless were drafted in the 1st round....Tayshaun Prince, Luke Walton, Kevin Martin to name a few. I don't think Garcia is a top 15 pick, but IMO he will be selected in the twenties....

Maybe Thompson will go 1st round as well, but I sure as heck woudln't want him on my team...the guy defines the word "overated".



> Childress is garbage


and yet he scored 20pts in an NBA game as a rookie....

He wasn't worth where he was selected, but he ain't garbage.....


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## Matthew Maurer (Oct 17, 2002)

> I agree, I dont think that Jack is everything everybody cracks him out to be....He turns the ball over to much for a PG and his jump shot is way to inconsistent....



I think Jack is a great prospect based on his body strength, reboudning ability, and the fact that he a tough nosed player. I think he gonna be better than some high profiled PG. Furthermore If I had to choose him or say Gilchrist from Maryland I'm taking Jack all the way.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Kmurph said:


> and yet he scored 20pts in an NBA game as a rookie....
> 
> He wasn't worth where he was selected, but he ain't garbage.....



Actually he has had about 4-6 20pt games.. as well as about 6 double doubles..

He just has had a tough transition playing SG. If he played SF full time, he would easily be in the ROY chase.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

> there have been too many guys listed as too slow, too weak, too unathleitc, that nonetheless were drafted in the 1st round....Tayshaun Prince, Luke Walton, Kevin Martin to name a few. I don't think Garcia is a top 15 pick, but IMO he will be selected in the twenties....


Luke Walton was a second round pick, but nevermind that, you bring up a good point...Larry Bird was slow, unathletic and considered weak...That didnt stop him from being the most fundamentally sound player and a top 50 greatest player to boot.....


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> Luke Walton was a second round pick, but nevermind that, you bring up a good point...Larry Bird was slow, unathletic and considered weak...That didnt stop him from being the most fundamentally sound player and a top 50 greatest player to boot.....


Yeah, and Larry Bird was a dominant, dominant, dominant college player. Garcia is a quite mediocre college player.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> Luke Walton was a second round pick


oops my bad....


I don't recall Tayshaun Prince being an awesome college player....nor Pat Garrity or Matt Harpring....


and what about Casey Jacobsen or Kareem Rush?


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Kmurph said:


> oops my bad....
> 
> 
> I don't recall Tayshaun Prince being an awesome college player....nor Pat Garrity or Matt Harpring....
> ...


All much better college players than how Garcia is turning out...


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Updated 3/1 (I always forget somebody or do something stupid, so feel free to point out what it is this time right away) 

1. Atlanta - PF/C Andrew Bogut, 7'0, 250, Utah (so)
2. New Orleans - WF Marvin Williams, 6'9, 230, UNC, (fr)
3. Charlotte – PG Raymond Felton, 6'0, 190, UNC (jr)
4. Golden State – C Martynas Andriuskevicius, 7'3, 240, Lithuania
5. Utah - PG Chris Paul, 6'0, 175, Wake Forest (so)
6. Portland – PF Charlie Villanueva, 6'11, 230, Connecticut (so)
7. New York - PF Chris Taft, 6'10, 260, Pitt (so)
8. Milwaukee - PF Fran Vasquez, 6'10, 230, Spain
9. Toronto - WG Antoine Wright, 6'7, 210, Texas A&M (jr)
10. LA Clippers – F Nemanja Aleksandrov, 6'10, 210, Serbia 
11. New Jersey - PF Tiaggo Splitter, 6'11, 240, Brazil
12. Toronto - PG Jarret Jack, 6'3, 200, Georgia Tech (jr)
13. Denver - WG Gerald Green, 6'8, 200, High School
14. Minnesota –WF Joey Graham, 6'7, 230, Oklahoma State
15. Boston - PF Shelden Williams, 6'8, 260, Duke (jr) 
16. Indiana - PF Ike Diogu, 6’8, 250, Arizona State (jr)
17. Orlando - PF/C Andray Blatche, 6'11, 230, High School
18. Atlanta - PG Deron Williams, 6'3, 210, Illinois (jr)
19. Phoenix - C Johan Petro, 7'0, 260, France
20. Memphis - G Guillermo Diaz, 6'2, 180, Miami (so)
21. Orlando - PF Rony Turiaf, 6'9, 260, Gonzaga
22. Houston - WG Rudy Fernandez, 6'5, 180, Spain
23. Charlotte - F Hakim Warrick, 6'8, 220, Syracuse
24. Sacramento - WF Danny Granger, 6'8, 220, New Mexico
25. Detroit – G Luther Head, 6'3, 190, Illinois
26. Utah - WG Kennedy Winston, 6'6, 220, Alabama (jr)
27. Seattle - PF Wayne Simien 6'8, 260, Kansas
28. LA Lakers – WF Dijon Thompson, 6'7, 210, UCLA
29. Phoenix – WF Shawne Williams, 6’9, 205, HS
30. San Antonio - F Ryan Gomes, 6'7, 240, Providence

Just Missed: 

PF Brandon Bass, 6'7, 250, LSU (jr)
PF/C Channing Frye, 6'11, 240, Arizona
PG Nate Robinson, 5'7, 170, Washington (jr)
WG Julius Hodge, 6'7, 190, NC State 
WG Fransisco Garcia, 6'6, 190, Louisville (jr)
F Jawad Williams, 6'8, 220, UNC
WF Sean Banks, 6'8, 210, Memphis (jr)
WF Quemont Greer, 6'7, 230, DePaul
PF Lawrence Roberts, 6'8, 250, Mississippi State
PF Vladimir Veermenko, 6'11, 230, Belarus
G Louis Williams, 6'2, 175, High School
PG Roko Leni-Ukic, 6'5, 180
PF Antonio Gigli, 6'11, 205
WF Mickael Gelabe, 6'8, 175


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

If POR picks Villanueva, I'll be pissed...That kid is a headcase, and POR has had enough guys like that. Besides, I don't see Villanueva going that high at all...

Felton at #3? Explain that one to me...especially over Chris Paul....


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Blabla, 

Are you going by best available talent at each position or a mixture of best talent and teams needs.....If its team needs there is no way that Portland picks Villanueva.......Portland management has made it clear there target in the draft is a SG.....

Also, do you think that Marvin Williams is going out this year?


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## celticsfuture34 (Jan 6, 2005)

Is Aaron Miles going to be drafted in the 2nd round?


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

Simien ahead of Sheldon?

Head ahead of Deron?

:naughty: :naughty:


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