# OT: Kobe accomplishes basketball feat MJ never matched



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2006010913&prov=ap



> LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Kobe Bryant accomplished something Michael Jordan never did.
> 
> Or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
> 
> ...


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

He's on fire, if only he was with us. I hope he can keep this streak going.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Kobe is on fire but the man is a GIGANTIC ball hog.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Kobe is on fire but the man is a GIGANTIC ball hog.



Worst I've ever seen.

Call me when he has 6 rings.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

The Krakken said:


> Worst I've ever seen.
> 
> Call me when he has 6 rings.


Whats so funny is that the AP article makes it sound like Larry Bird, MJ and Karem "Could not have" done it. 

What Kobe is doing does not impress me at all. MJ in his rookie year averaged 29 points per game averaging only about 19 FGA per game thats good and thats about 20 FGA per 40 minutes! Kobe is averaging 34 ppg in a whopping 32 FGA per 40 Minutes!!! Jordan in his ENTIRE career has never averaged 22.9 FGA and about 23.9 FGA per 40 minutes. 

MJ could have easilly averaged 45 ppg for an entire season if he really wanted to and the same goes for Bird and Kareem.

And Kobe is playing in the WORST defensive NBA i have ever seen in my entire life. For those of you guys who actually watched defense in the 80's-90's you would understand.


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## nanokooshball (Jan 22, 2005)

the thing is its not Kobe who is being selfish..... I mean who does he have on the team that he can share his attempts with?

Lamar Odom? But he doesn't have a scorer mentality..... Parker? He's so streaky ...and tehy don't have anyone up front either as a legit offensive presence....

so it falls primarily on Kobe to score


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## nanokooshball (Jan 22, 2005)

thebizkit69u said:


> Whats so funny is that the AP article makes it sound like Larry Bird, MJ and Karem "Could not have" done it.
> 
> What Kobe is doing does not impress me at all. MJ in his rookie year averaged 29 points per game averaging only about 19 FGA per game thats good and thats about 20 FGA per 40 minutes! Kobe is averaging 34 ppg in a whopping 32 FGA per 40 Minutes!!! Jordan in his ENTIRE career has never averaged 22.9 FGA and about 23.9 FGA per 40 minutes.
> 
> ...


i thought it was a general consensus that Defense has been much better nowadays than back then...


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> And Kobe is playing in the WORST defensive NBA i have ever seen in my entire life. For those of you guys who actually watched defense in the 80's-90's you would understand.


Now I'm normally game for a round of Kobe-bashing, but I've almost always been fairly impressed with his defense. Sometimes he can just bottle people up. I haven't seen as much of him this season, so maybe he's resting on defense so that his arms don't get tired on offense and he can get his 30+ shots up. But I would have to disagree about him being any worse than above-average on defense in general, and borderline All-NBA when he puts his mind to it.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> Now I'm normally game for a round of Kobe-bashing, but I've almost always been fairly impressed with his defense. Sometimes he can just bottle people up. I haven't seen as much of him this season, so maybe he's resting on defense so that his arms don't get tired on offense and he can get his 30+ shots up. But I would have to disagree about him being any worse than above-average on defense in general, and borderline All-NBA when he puts his mind to it.


He's talking about the rest of the league....not Kobe.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Let's do a Kobe v. MJ statistical comparison, just to know where each player stands. The first thing you hear is "well it's unfair, because Kobe entered the league at such a young age." Jordan was 21 when he entered the league and Kobe Bryant is 28 now, so let's just do a comparison of both players from ages 21-28:

Kobe Bryant 1999-2006, 459 games, 39.64 minutes per game
26.94 PPG 
6.00 RPG 
5.33 APG 
1.64 SPG 
0.66 BPG
45.34% FG
83.32% FT
0 NBA MVPs
0 NBA Defensive Player of the Year Awards
0 NBA Finals MVPs
3 Rings won as second best player on team

Michael Jordan 1984-1991, 509 games, 38.65 minutes per game
32.60 PPG
6.25 RPG
5.92 APG
2.77 SPG
1.07 BPG
51.95% FG
84.85% FG
2 NBA MVPs
1 NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award
1 NBA Finals MVP
1 Ring won as best player on team

Michael Jordan wins all 7 major statistical categories against Kobe Bryant *at the same ages*. Michael Jordan also wins all awards. Basically the only thing Kobe has on MJ at this point is something that Shaq Diesel got for him (as much as MJ did for Pippen). So basically in 1.01 less minutes per game, at the same age you could expect the following from Michael Jordan relative to Kobe Bryant:

5.66 more points
0.25 more rebounds
0.59 more assists
1.13 more steals
0.41 more blocks
6.61% higher FGs (that's a ridiculous difference)
1.53% higher FTs

Why the higher FG% number? Why was it so alarmingly high? The answer is the biggest difference between MJ and Kobe. The difference between MJ's ability to penetrate and finish over contact with dunks compared to Kobe Bryant is about like comparing Reggie Miller's jumper to Luol Deng. MJ, playing in an area where maneuvers by defenders that would be borderline as to whether they'd even be a FOUL would now be flagrant fouls, had the ability to leave one defender in the dust, jump from distance, receive full contact from two more defenders, and power through them for a tomahawk jam. I have two MJ dunks on tape where they show at even angle (from ten feet up) Jordan's eyes coming above the rim on a dunk.

If I would make a recipe for Kobe Bryant, I would say he's:

40% Michael Jordan
10% Reggie Miller
15% Glen Rice
15% Adrian Dantley
10% Haywoode Workman
10% Lafayette Lever


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> The difference between MJ's ability to penetrate and finish over contact with dunks compared to Kobe Bryant is about like comparing Reggie Miller's jumper to Luol Deng.



:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Funniest thing I've read all day.

+rep.

Otherwise, excellent analysis.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

nanokooshball said:


> i thought it was a general consensus that Defense has been much better nowadays than back then...


Yeah that's the consensus amongst Stu Scott fans who've never watched a game that occured before 1999. Because players are "so much longer and more athletic." To those fans I say this. Players are more athletic now in terms of jumping, players are LESS athletic now in terms of agility and side-to-side movement. Players now aren't even 10% as effective as they were when Jordan played in terms of cutting off spots. People seem to think that that has nothing to do with defense. They laugh when you say "players cut off spots better back then." To me cutting off a spot to which you can dribble is much much more important than being able to jump high defensively. To illustrate, in today's game, Chris Duhon is considered an elite player in terms of cutting off the dribble. He showed it in the game last year that Iverson almost got tossed out of. Iverson's lucky Isiah or Dumars never guarded him in their primes because he would have cried and fell on the floor ten times, not once. When MJ played, most players beat the offensive player to the spot as fast as Chris Duhon. Now this is considered a rarity.

Then you consider the fact that you can take any foul today that is a Flagrant penalty 2, and back then it probably would have only received minor consideration as a Flagrant penalty 1, and even then probably waived off. I remember in the 1992 finals Jerome Kersey basically flat out shoved Scott Williams 4 feet out of bounds. It was a flagrant 1, but today would have drawn a 5 game suspension. Then later in the series, Kersey lowered his shoulder and tried to basically football-tackle Stacey King. I remember Marv saying "And the Bulls are asking for a flagrant foul," Adelman was acting like the official was Hitler or something. Bulls were regularly clotheslined against Detroit and it wasn't uncommon to see a CENTER throw his full body weight into Jordan on a dribble drive. Of course Jordan would usually just dunk throw that contact. The main difference between him and his imposter that stole Derek Harper's nose and back in 2001 had the same hot air balloon "halfro" as Jared Jeffries, yes, Kobe Bryant; walking around with his head looking like a light bulb.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Just watch the battles between the Bulls and almost every other Eastern Conference team and tell ME that todays defense is better then thos of the past. 

Kobe has never had to keep an entire team from killing him like Jordan did against the Pistons. 

On a side note i like Lebron James a lot, but sometimes i wish someone would just knock him on his ***, he just walks to the basket and scores. Someone needs to just wipe him out and make him earn his points.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> On a side note i like Lebron James a lot, but sometimes i wish someone would just knock him on his ***, he just walks to the basket and scores. Someone needs to just wipe him out and make him earn his points.



Maybe you missed the part where he's 6'8 and 245 lbs. Not exactly an easy guy to knock over, and even if he was knocked over, you know he'd come right back at em.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

kobe is the best finisher in the game now. i dont think jordan was better than kobe in driving and finishing around the rim.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Kobe right now, is very close to what Jordan was before he got Pippen. The main difference is Kobe started his career on a great team, which is why he already has 3 titles on teams where he was the co-leader. All the same criticisms that Jordan had, is what Kobe is getting now, even from Bulls fans. Jordan is a ballhog, he is good but he'll never win titles like Bird and Magic because he isn't a team player. All that bologne. 

As far as their games go, Jordan was more of a Dwyane Wade type player (other way around actually), always going to the rim and finishing, not much longrange game but a real nice midrange jumper. Kobe is a more talented all-around scorer, he can beat you going to the hoop and finishing, with the midrange, longball, post up game, you name it. Some of the things he is doing are just ridiculous. Jordan needed overtimes to get 63 and 69, Kobe scored 62 in three quarters. I think they're pretty comparable in every aspect, but with Jordan beating him out _slightly_ in every category.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

The Krakken said:


> He's talking about the rest of the league....not Kobe.


ahh, I see. my mistake.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

thebizkit69u said:


> What Kobe is doing does not impress me at all. MJ in his rookie year averaged 29 points per game averaging only about 19 FGA per game thats good and thats about 20 FGA per 40 minutes! Kobe is averaging 34 ppg in a whopping 32 FGA per 40 Minutes!!! Jordan in his ENTIRE career has never averaged 22.9 FGA and about 23.9 FGA per 40 minutes.


Maybe you're exaggerating or maybe you're misinformed. Jordan shot 27.8 times per game in 1986-1987 and 25.6 times per game in 1992-1993. Kobe is shooting 27.1 times per game this season, not 32 times like you claimed.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Maybe you're exaggerating or maybe you're misinformed. Jordan shot 27.8 times per game in 1986-1987 and 25.6 times per game in 1992-1993. Kobe is shooting 27.1 times per game this season, not 32 times like you claimed.


Jordan did score 37ppg with those 27.8 shots, though. That's pretty insane.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

ViciousFlogging said:


> Jordan did score 37ppg with those 27.8 shots, though. That's pretty insane.


Yes true, it is great. Kobe is at 34 points per game though almost an attempt less per game, which is nothing to sneeze at either. Regardless, I was just pointing out how if Kobe is a "GIGANTIC ballhog" for shooting 27.1 shots per game, then Jordan must be the same thing to a greater extent for shooting even more shots per game for an entire season.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Yes true, it is great. Kobe is at 34 points per game though almost an attempt less per game, which is nothing to sneeze at either. Regardless, I was just pointing out how if Kobe is a "GIGANTIC ballhog" for shooting 27.1 shots per game, then Jordan must be the same thing to a greater extent for shooting even more shots per game for an entire season.


No disagreement here. The only nitpick I would throw out is that Lamar Odom is a much better #2 guy than anyone on that year's Bulls team. But even with him, the fortunes of the Lakers rest almost entirely on Kobe scorching the nets.


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## RipDirty (Jun 17, 2002)

If the young MJ was playing right now he'd avg. damn near 50/game. With all the touch fouls on hand checks. The way the game used to be called you had to be damn near raped to get a foul. Hand checking, body bumps and grabs were legal. Can you imagine having to guard MJ without being able to touch him. Can we please stop the comparisons. The names shouldn't be spoken in the same breath.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sith said:


> kobe is the best finisher in the game now. i dont think jordan was better than kobe in driving and finishing around the rim.


Are you serious? Have you actually seen Jordan in the 80s and early 90s? OMG I can't even believe I'm reading this! You tell me what CENTERS Kobe has up and dunked all over despite them trying to full out knock him out of mid air. You need to seriously watch come fly with me if you think that his is the case. And if Kobe is so good at finishing close to the basket why the 6% lower FGs?


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

in that run he's had games with over 40 shots. his arms are going to fall off. it;s a team sport last I checked.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

RipDirty said:


> If the young MJ was playing right now he'd avg. damn near 50/game. With all the touch fouls on hand checks. The way the game used to be called you had to be damn near raped to get a foul. Hand checking, body bumps and grabs were legal. Can you imagine having to guard MJ without being able to touch him. Can we please stop the comparisons. The names shouldn't be spoken in the same breath.


I actually see it the other way around. There is no way the Pistons and Spurs could get away with what they do back in the 80's.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe right now, is very close to what Jordan was before he got Pippen. The main difference is Kobe started his career on a great team, which is why he already has 3 titles on teams where he was the co-leader. All the same criticisms that Jordan had, is what Kobe is getting now, even from Bulls fans. Jordan is a ballhog, he is good but he'll never win titles like Bird and Magic because he isn't a team player. All that bologne.
> 
> As far as their games go, Jordan was more of a Dwyane Wade type player (other way around actually), always going to the rim and finishing, not much longrange game but a real nice midrange jumper. Kobe is a more talented all-around scorer, he can beat you going to the hoop and finishing, with the midrange, longball, post up game, you name it. Some of the things he is doing are just ridiculous. Jordan needed overtimes to get 63 and 69, Kobe scored 62 in three quarters. I think they're pretty comparable in every aspect, but with Jordan beating him out _slightly_ in every category.


If you call almost double steals, almost double blocks, 5+ more PPG and 6% higher FGs beating him out slightly I don't know what to say. Kobe is not like Jordan before he got Pippen. Jordan's teammates were MUCH worse than Kobe's now before he got Pippen.

And it's not like "oh Kobe has Jordan's scoring game AND he can hit the jumper on you." No, it's more like Kobe can't even come close to finishing at the rim like MJ (or his FG% would be higher), and has a better jumpshot from deep. But Jordan didn't need a deep jumpshot. Why do you need a deep jumpshot when you can take 2 and 3 defenders to the rim and poke on them WHENEVER YOU WANT. You tell me when Kobe has taken off from ten feet out and dunked over what today would be a flagrant foul. Absolutely ridiculous. Also did you miss the part where MJ at the same age had 2 more MVPs, a DPOY Kobe didn't have and a Finals MVP Kobe didn't have?? 

The difference between Kobe now and MJ at 28 is that despite not winning a ring at age 26, in fact despite being on a team that was just barely a winning team he beat MAGIC JOHNSON out for the MVP award. I keep hearing this crap that Kobe is the best individual player in the NBA today. I've been hearing it for 5 years now. Shouldn't the BEST player in the NBA today have at least 1 MVP by his TENTH season in the league?


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## xPAGANx (Dec 19, 2005)

Sometimes I feel like the people trying to hype up Kobe to be as good as Jordan are simply youths that want their generation to be the best. They want one of their players to rival those of earlier times.

I could be wrong, but that is the feeling I get.

IMO Kobe isn't nearly what Jordan was. Jordan was a true icon of pure greatness everywhere on the floor.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Yes true, it is great. Kobe is at 34 points per game though almost an attempt less per game, which is nothing to sneeze at either. Regardless, I was just pointing out how if Kobe is a "GIGANTIC ballhog" for shooting 27.1 shots per game, then Jordan must be the same thing to a greater extent for shooting even more shots per game for an entire season.


Jordan scored those 37.1 PPG on 48.2%. When you have a guard that can fill it up like that you keep shooting. Also, Scottie Pippen and Ho Grant weren't on the team yet. Who was he supposed to pass it to? Quick, name the second best player on the Bulls that year.

Also people forget that Jordan scored 35 PPG the following year on *53.5% FG* a season in which he shot a higher FG% than *Hakeem Olajuwon and Karl Malone*. You show me Kobe shooting a higher percentage than an perhaps the elite offensive center and power forward combo of today and I hope he shoots it 50 times a game. Seriously, you know your hoops dude but you are way way way the F off on this whole deal. Don't take this personally. There isn't a single contention made about TODAY's Bulls that could get me half as riled up as a Kobe fan who subconsciously thinks MJ was never THAT much more athletic than the 1998 version thinking that Kobe is anything like Jordan.

In fact in 1989 Scottie Pippen was only in his second year, his first year starting, hardly a respected player and nothing close to an All Star. Jordan led the team to the Eastern Conference Finals where they lost to the eventual NBA Champions, and while LEADING A TEAM TO THE ECF, put up the following stat line:

32 PPG 8 RPG 8 APG on 53.8% FG! And that's not with the whole "oh he'll never win" deal going on. He did have the pressure of winning because that team almost made the finals and was widely considered the third best team in the NBA that year! And Pippen at that point was not considered as good as Lamar Odom is today.

Kobe on the other hand is shooting *44.3%*

You choose which season is the best out of these three:

Kobe Bryant 2005-06 34.1 PPG 44.3% FG 80.7% FT
Michael Jordan 1986-87 37.1 PPG 48.2% FG 85.7% FT
Michael Jordan 1987-88 35.0 PPG 53.5%FG 84.1% FT

Oh how about Jordan's DEFENSIVE stat line from those same seasons where *apparently* all he was doing was ballhogging it up:

Michael Jordan 1986-87 2.88 SPG 1.52 BPG
Michael Jordan 1987-88 3.16 SPG 1.60 BPG 

Perhaps MJ was doing more than just ball hogging and perhaps he was creating some of his own opportunities. 

Kobe fans, when confronted with the ACTUAL numbers, and without Stu Scott to sit behind them and yell "Kobe was straight as dope as MJ done ever been yo!" the picture actually starts looking quite different.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Steals and blocks from a perimeter player don't mean much. Kobe is just as good of a defender as Mike was. Mike was able to take plays off defensively because of Pippen being a better perimeter defender and being able to cover the other teams best perimeter player. 

Jordan also never had to deal with the new zone rule, which allows teams to hard double team you. That rule change alone throws off the statistical comparison. If Kobe could go at a defense that wasn't allowed to touch you and couldn't double team you, he would probably average close to 40 points too my friend. 



Pippenatorade said:


> Shouldn't the BEST player in the NBA today have at least 1 MVP by his TENTH season in the league?


No, because the voters are like you and create stupid stipulations that the MVP must have. Kobe can't win MVP because he has Shaq, even when he is clearly carrying the team. A player can't win MVP unless they're on one of the 3 or 4 best teams. That's the reason a guy like Chauncey Billups is the favorite for MVP over clearly better players like LeBron James and Kobe Bryant.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I never said Jordan was a ballhog, I said if Kobe is a ballhog for shooting 27 times per game, then so is Jordan for shooting nearly 28 times per game.


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## Zeb (Oct 16, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe right now, is very close to what Jordan was before he got Pippen. The main difference is Kobe started his career on a great team, which is why he already has 3 titles on teams where he was the co-leader. All the same criticisms that Jordan had, is what Kobe is getting now, even from Bulls fans. Jordan is a ballhog, he is good but he'll never win titles like Bird and Magic because he isn't a team player. All that bologne.
> 
> As far as their games go, Jordan was more of a Dwyane Wade type player (other way around actually), always going to the rim and finishing, not much longrange game but a real nice midrange jumper. Kobe is a more talented all-around scorer, he can beat you going to the hoop and finishing, with the midrange, longball, post up game, you name it. Some of the things he is doing are just ridiculous. Jordan needed overtimes to get 63 and 69, Kobe scored 62 in three quarters. I think they're pretty comparable in every aspect, but with Jordan beating him out _slightly_ in every category.


Seeing as you were about 2 years old when Pippen was drafted, I question how much you can really compare the two.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Zeb said:


> Seeing as you were about 2 years old when Pippen was drafted, I question how much you can really compare the two.


There is this new invention called video tape and even newer inventions called DVD's. Check them out my friend.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Causeway said:


> in that run he's had games with over 40 shots. his arms are going to fall off. it;s a team sport last I checked.


They always do fall off, but don't worry because Kobe fans have pulled this routine before. When Kobe was scoring 40 PPG for a month back in 2003 without Shaq it was generally accepted that he was the better player than MJ amongst Kobe fans. When they lost to San Antonio: silence. When Kobe shot 36% FG in the NBA finals against the Pistons? Silence. (Shouldn't a player with MJ's finishing ability be able to shoot higher than 36% on the biggest stage in basketball?) Kobe fans are hilarious. When Kobe is not playing close to what MJ played like (at least 75% of the time) they are hiding in caves. Kobe has one great week and or month and it's 2001 on realgm all over again; "he's like a young Jordan ONLY BETTER!!" But it's not like they update you when his team doesn't go to the playoffs and his statline doesn't look anything like MJ's at the same age (LAST SEASON). They don't come out and say "well man, based on THIS month, Kobe is nothing like MJ." There is this fantasy world where MJ was never more athletic than 1996, his best move ever was that stupid hand changing move against the Lakers (I can find 200 dunks from the 80s and early 90s way sicker than that move but you never see them on the commercials cause they weren't in the "FINALS"), and the times when Kobe is playing lights out are really his whole career.


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## xPAGANx (Dec 19, 2005)

I think it is funny when everyone jumps all over the fact that Kobe did something that Jordan did not.

Lets reverse the roles... How many things has Jordan done that Kobe has not?


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## Zeb (Oct 16, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> There is this new invention called video tape and even newer inventions called DVD's. Check them out my friend.


Yeah, I'm sure checking a few highlight reels makes you know it all.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I never knew Bulls fans were this threatened. I know that Jordan is better, which is why I can realistically compare the two without getting upset.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Zeb said:


> Yeah, I'm sure checking a few highlight reals makes you know it all.


No, my friend. ENTIRE GAMES! THEY HAVE THEM! These video tapes and such that I speak of, they can hold like 6 hours of footage.


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## xPAGANx (Dec 19, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I never knew Bulls fans were this threatened. I know that Jordan is better, which is why I can realistically compare the two without getting upset.


I'm not a Bulls fan. In fact I am not even a Jordan fan. I still clearly know where to draw the line.


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## Zeb (Oct 16, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> No, my friend. ENTIRE GAMES! THEY HAVE THEM! These video tapes and such that I speak of, they can hold like 6 hours of footage.


And I'm sure you have an entire archive of 80's games you study religiously.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

xPAGANx said:


> I'm not a Bulls fan. In fact I am not even a Jordan fan. I still clearly know where to draw the line.


Pistons fan I assume? Honestly, with the way they were playing in the 2004 finals, I think they could have given the showtime Lakers or the 80's Celtics a run for their money. I also think that two of the five best forwards of all time are in their prime right now in the NBA, that is Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. People love to make past players into gods, and take for granted our current superstars and legends, but I refuse to.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Zeb said:


> And I'm sure you have an entire archive of 80's games you study religiously.


Not anymore, I've seen enough of the 80's by now, and especially our Bulls. If I pull out anything nowadays, it'll be my ultimate Jordan DVD. That 63 point game against the Celtics is worth watching every now and then. Of course, if someone was to do that nowadays, it would be downplayed because the Bulls lost the game.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Steals and blocks from a perimeter player don't mean much. Kobe is just as good of a defender as Mike was. Mike was able to take plays off defensively because of Pippen being a better perimeter defender and being able to cover the other teams best perimeter player.
> 
> Jordan also never had to deal with the new zone rule, which allows teams to hard double team you. That rule change alone throws off the statistical comparison. If Kobe could go at a defense that wasn't allowed to touch you and couldn't double team you, he would probably average close to 40 points too my friend.


Pippen wasn't on the team in 1987!! HA HA!! Pippen didn't start 1 game in 1988 when MJ took home DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR!!! Quit living in this fantasy world where, because Pippen became a better defender eventually, Jordan wasn't the best SG defender of all time. So steals and blocks don't mean much right? Not as much as *the opinion of a Kobe fan* right?

First of all Kobe never had to deal with the "Jordan Rules." You show me a team with two hall of fame talented guards that can take away the dribble, that run to you every time you get the ball, then you get by them and get clotheslined by Laimbeer, Mahorn, Rodman and Salley and Kobe would be crying on the bench by the second quarter. Don't have this discussion with me son, it's going to turn into an embarassment. You just brought up Pippen helping Jordan's defense for two seasons where he wasn't on the team one year and he was a rookie who played 16 minutes a game and never started the second year. You obviously don't have the knowledge of JORDAN's game at those ages to compare. Honestly, IMO, if you've never seen Jordan play WITH HAIR live then you shouldn't be having this discussion. 



> No, because the voters are like you and create stupid stipulations that the MVP must have. Kobe can't win MVP because he has Shaq, even when he is clearly carrying the team. A player can't win MVP unless they're on one of the 3 or 4 best teams. That's the reason a guy like Chauncey Billups is the favorite for MVP over clearly better players like LeBron James and Kobe Bryant.


Magic Johnson was on a team that had Kareem, a five time MVP who was not much older than Shaq when he joined the Lakers and even won an MVP with the Lakers and yet Magic won the award fairly early on. Stipulation = blasted to shreds. Bird won the MVP with McHale, Parrish, Johnson and Walton on his team, all hall of famers. Jordan won 5 MVPs despite Pippen finishing in the top ten I believe 3 of those times. And btw you're now defeating your own arguments. Chauncey Billups is on a team with BETTER players than Lebron and Kobe. So by your Kobe/Shaq rationale shouldn't Kobe be in better MVP position?

Jordan won his first MVP at age 26 over two guys named Magic Johnson and Larry Bird with players like Hakeem Olajuwon, John Stockton, Isiah Thomas and Karl Malone in the mix. Kobe has had Kevin Garnett, Allen Iverson and Steve Nash (who won the award when Kobe was playing without Shaq) win MVPs while he's sat trophyless. So please. Jordan would kill Steve Nash. In fact if Jordan was in the MVP running and Nash was the favorite he'd guard Nash on one end and dunk all over the Suns on the other and by the end of the game any time anyone mentioned Nash people would say "but yeah, if you're gonna consider Nash you have to consider the way that Mike Jordan has demoralized him and the Suns in 4 Bull wins."


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## xPAGANx (Dec 19, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Pistons fan I assume? Honestly, with the way they were playing in the 2004 finals, I think they could have given the showtime Lakers or the 80's Celtics a run for their money. I also think that two of the five best forwards of all time are in their prime right now in the NBA, that is Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. People love to make past players into gods, and take for granted our current superstars and legends, but I refuse to.


I will agree with you to a point. I will say that Kobe is an excellent player and probably better than a lot of those players from the past that are highly regarded.

I truly believe though that MJ is one of those guys that will be incredibly tough to de-throne in the talent department. When I see that player that does it, hats off to him.

I totally understand where you are coming from. There is some awesome talent out there right now that doesn't get the attention it deserves. When some of todays stars near retirement, their names will shine as well.

I think a lot of the legends are formed over a career, not just a couple spectacular years.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I never said Jordan was a ballhog, I said if Kobe is a ballhog for shooting 27 times per game, then so is Jordan for shooting nearly 28 times per game.


When you consider the percentage difference and the fact that the teams second leading scorer was CHARLES OAKLEY Jordan was not a ballhog at all.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I never knew Bulls fans were this threatened. I know that Jordan is better, which is why I can realistically compare the two without getting upset.


Threatened? Hardly. You're just having the discussion grossly incorrectly. Blocks and steals don't mean much, Pippen made Jordan the defender he was despite the fact that I was talking about two seasons in which Pippen wasn't even a starter, Jordan is a ballhog for being able to score over 35 PPG two times on 48.2% FG and 53.5% FG (and I know you said if Kobe is he is, but I contend Kobe is and he wasn't), Kobe can drive like Jordan, Kobe would do this in Jordan's day, Jordan would do this in Kobe's day, Kobe doesn't have an MVP TEN years into his career because the system was rigged against him by having Shaq, but Chauncey Billups also has the system rigged in his favor despite having Rip, Ben, and Rasheed just like Kobe had Shaq while Kobe has, ODOM. You're grossly incorrect on most accounts. A true fan of today's games who talks (on this subject anyway) and has me hearing Stu Scott's voice the whole time.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> Pippen wasn't on the team in 1987!! HA HA!! Pippen didn't start 1 game in 1988 when MJ took home DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR!!! Quit living in this fantasy world where, because Pippen became a better defender eventually, Jordan wasn't the best SG defender of all time. So steals and blocks don't mean much right? Not as much as *the opinion of a Kobe fan* right?


Good point, although Jordan was considered a great defender through many years when he did take many plays off and Pippen covered for him. Like I said before, Jordan is a great defender, and so is Kobe. Both have made 1st team defense more than once in their careers. You can say that there is a distinct advantage between them defensively, but it's your bias speaking. 



Pippenatorade said:


> First of all Kobe never had to deal with the "Jordan Rules." You show me a team with two hall of fame talented guards that can take away the dribble, that run to you every time you get the ball, then you get by them and get clotheslined by Laimbeer, Mahorn, Rodman and Salley and Kobe would be crying on the bench by the second quarter. Don't have this discussion with me son, it's going to turn into an embarassment. You just brought up Pippen helping Jordan's defense for two seasons where he wasn't on the team one year and he was a rookie who played 16 minutes a game and never started the second year. You obviously don't have the knowledge of JORDAN's game at those ages to compare. Honestly, IMO, if you've never seen Jordan play WITH HAIR live then you shouldn't be having this discussion.


Kobe has to deal with "Jordan rules" every night, simply because teams are allowed to focus their whole defense on one player now. Jordan never had to deal with the defenses like that. Never. With so much of Jordan's game being off the dribble and at the basket, it would severely hurt him to play in today's game, where most perimeter players eventually end up settling for jumpers, because the team defensive concepts are much more advanced and the NBA allows more contact. That is one of the reasons scoring is lower nowadays. 



Pippenatorade said:


> Magic Johnson was on a team that had Kareem, a five time MVP who was not much older than Shaq when he joined the Lakers and even won an MVP with the Lakers and yet Magic won the award fairly early on. Stipulation = blasted to shreds. Bird won the MVP with McHale, Parrish, Johnson and Walton on his team, all hall of famers. Jordan won 5 MVPs despite Pippen finishing in the top ten I believe 3 of those times. And btw you're now defeating your own arguments. Chauncey Billups is on a team with BETTER players than Lebron and Kobe. So by your Kobe/Shaq rationale shouldn't Kobe be in better MVP position?
> 
> Jordan won his first MVP at age 26 over two guys named Magic Johnson and Larry Bird with players like Hakeem Olajuwon, John Stockton, Isiah Thomas and Karl Malone in the mix. Kobe has had Kevin Garnett, Allen Iverson and Steve Nash (who won the award when Kobe was playing without Shaq) win MVPs while he's sat trophyless. So please. Jordan would kill Steve Nash. In fact if Jordan was in the MVP running and Nash was the favorite he'd guard Nash on one end and dunk all over the Suns on the other and by the end of the game any time anyone mentioned Nash people would say "but yeah, if you're gonna consider Nash you have to consider the way that Mike Jordan has demoralized him and the Suns in 4 Bull wins."


Name an MVP in the past 15 years who has won an MVP without his team winning 56 games, and we'll talk. And while you're digging that up, find yourself a box of tissues and clean yourself up so you can defend yourself like a man. I feel like I'm talking to a child here. Seriously though.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Pistons fan I assume? Honestly, with the way they were playing in the 2004 finals, I think they could have given the showtime Lakers or the 80's Celtics a run for their money. I also think that two of the five best forwards of all time are in their prime right now in the NBA, that is Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. People love to make past players into gods, and take for granted our current superstars and legends, but I refuse to.


1988 NBA Centers
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Moses Malone
Robert Parrish
Tree Rollins

2006 Centers
Shaquille Oneal (OLD, FAT Shaq)
Yao Ming (not as good as any of the top 6 despite his hype)
???? (Remember you just called Duncan a forward, and we're talking about true centers. Dirk is overrated and any one of those players would pee all over him)

Consider when comparing eras that today Eddy Curry is considered one of the better offensive post centers in the game and he would have struggled to stay in the league in 88.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

xPAGANx said:


> I will agree with you to a point. I will say that Kobe is an excellent player and probably better than a lot of those players from the past that are highly regarded.
> 
> I truly believe though that MJ is one of those guys that will be incredibly tough to de-throne in the talent department. When I see that player that does it, hats off to him.
> 
> ...


True, and I know that Jordan is better than Kobe, which is why it's hard to argue in this case, because my argument is that Kobe isn't as good as Jordan, but does come somewhat close, and that people need to appreciate him more. But since he shoots a lot, people like to label him a ballhog, which was something Jordan was labeled too, but when I bring up Jordan, everyone gets all offended. So it's lose-lose for me. 

Kobe is the best scorer in the league, has a terrible Lakers team at 18-14 with him playing, and his will to win and competitive nature are really Jordan-like. Please appreciate this man and stop hating. Thanks.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Good point, although Jordan was considered a great defender through many years when he did take many plays off and Pippen covered for him. Like I said before, Jordan is a great defender, and so is Kobe. Both have made 1st team defense more than once in their careers. You can say that there is a distinct advantage between them defensively, but it's your bias speaking.


And first of all it's your OPINION that MJ took plays off. I'll trust Bill Russell's opinion better. Russell has always maintained that he was better than Jordan but once said "the one thing I'll say about Michael Jordan is that he's the one player who impresses me in that he's Michael Jordan, every game, every play." Now the idea that MJ took plays off is hilarious. Have you ever heard of the doberman defense? Bach would unleash the dobermans in the fourth quarter and Pippen, Jordan and Grant would run more fullcourt pressure in a quarter than Kobe runs in a season. 

No I can say it because I've seen them both play. Your last paragraph implores me to name a player, well I have one for you. You name me the last guard other than Jordan who even received serious consideration for the DPOY award (finished in the top 3 in voting)! Scottie Pippen never won a DPOY award and I don't think he was ever seriously considered if that tells you anything! Kobe Bryant will never sniff one. That's not bias, that's an award, given by a ton of guys who know more than me or you (many of whom were from places like Boston and giving him the nod despite saying "oh he'll never win"). 



> Kobe has to deal with "Jordan rules" every night, simply because teams are allowed to focus their whole defense on one player now. Jordan never had to deal with the defenses like that. Never. With so much of Jordan's game being off the dribble and at the basket, it would severely hurt him to play in today's game, where most perimeter players eventually end up settling for jumpers, because the team defensive concepts are much more advanced and the NBA allows more contact. That is one of the reasons scoring is lower nowadays.


Are you serious? Kid, you don't know what the F you are talking about! Do you know what the Jordan rules were? This was back when players got their noses broken and MAYBE it was a flagrant. If Jordan got close to the rim for a dunk, Daley's rule was "go up and take him out of midair." Clotheslines, grabbing and pulling him to the ground, bridging, it was all fair game and the worst that could happen was MAYBE a flagrant. You had to punch someone in the face to get SUSPENDED back then, and flagrant penalty 2s were almost never given. Scottie Pippen in fact DID have his nose broken during the Piston battles. And Dennis Rodman was a SF type back then. He'd guard the best player on the team. He was like Pippen only better as a defender on guards. Julius Erving called Rodman's perimeter athleticism "astounding" in his early years. If Kobe had to deal with 1988 Rodman guarding him he'd shoot 40% without Dennis even needing help from anyone. If he was being doubled, tripled, and flagrantly fouled on top of it? Sheet! 

Kid, before Pippen arrived any time Jordan got the ball 4 guys would run at him. I've seen him split two defenders with a behind the back dribble, take off from right in front of the free throw line, and dunk all over two more defenders. And that was the year he got injured for 64 games AFTER he came back from that injury. You were allowed to quad-cover a guy if you wanted too, you just had to do it when he had the ball. Even the people who used to say MJ was just a scorer admitted that with those teams he had a better chance of scoring on a triple team than most of those guys did all by themselves. In 1987 the second and third option on the Bulls was Charles Oakley and John Paxson! Think about that!

Did you honestly just say that? Did you honestly just say that the NBA allows more contact now!? OMG. Dude you could keep your hand plastered on a players waste as he drove to the basket back then. And I've already discussed the foul differences. Players are suspended now for things that wouldn't even have been considered close to a flagrant 1 back then. Kobe's elbow last week? That was "part of the game" in the 80s. Have you ever seen the play where Rambis got full out WWF clotheslined in a playoff game v. the Celtics? You literally DONT KNOW WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT. 



> Name an MVP in the past 15 years who has won an MVP without his team winning 56 games, and we'll talk. And while you're digging that up, find yourself a box of tissues and clean yourself up so you can defend yourself like a man. I feel like I'm talking to a child here. Seriously though.


1988 Chicago Bulls: 50-32 (Pippen's rookie year when he didn't even start and played 16 MPG)
1988 NBA MVP: Michael Jordan

And it's on Kobe to win 56 games, not MJ. Kobe doesn't win so he doesn't get MVP? KOBE's fault!

Are you serious? Your arguments have been destroyed lol. You've said some of the most ridiculous things in this thread that I've ever heard by anyone in an NBA discussion EVER. Everything you have is based on your opinion of a few video tapes you've seen back in the days. In fact, name 1 opinion you have accurately stated, based on the numbers, where you didn't misrepresent the numbers.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> True, and I know that Jordan is better than Kobe, which is why it's hard to argue in this case, because my argument is that Kobe isn't as good as Jordan, but does come somewhat close, and that people need to appreciate him more. But since he shoots a lot, people like to label him a ballhog, which was something Jordan was labeled too, but when I bring up Jordan, everyone gets all offended. So it's lose-lose for me.
> 
> Kobe is the best scorer in the league, has a terrible Lakers team at 18-14 with him playing, and his will to win and competitive nature are really Jordan-like. Please appreciate this man and stop hating. Thanks.


It is lose lose for you because how can you call a player a ballhog when in 1988, he scored 35 PPG and shot as much as Kobe, but:

His team won 50 games with a ROOKIE Pippen who didn't start (Grant didn't either)
He shot 53.5% FG
He won the MVP award
He ALSO won the DEFENSIVE player of the year award

That's a player who shoots a lot and is a NOT a ballhog.

Kobe on the other hand:

Is most likely not going to be playing on a 50 game winner
Is shooting 44% (that's almost 10% lower, an amazing difference)
Is not winning the MVP award
Is not even going to sniff minor consideration for the DPOY
(His teammates hate him and challenge him to fights, Jordan's feared him more than the coach)

BALLHOG


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> (His teammates hate him and challenge him to fights, Jordan's feared him more than the coach)


You clearly have no idea what's going on in LA. All of Kobe's teammates love him right now, that's a fact. I live in LA, and everything I've heard in interviews and in the papers suggests that they love playing with him. I'll admit your knowledge of Jordan is greater than mine, but I still you think make the past players a lot greater than they were, a lot of people do. 

You swear that players could pull out a baseball bat and knock you out with it and it wouldn't be called a foul back then, but that just isn't the case. More contact is allowed nowadays without a whistle being blown. Sure, Jordan might have been roughed up, but they were called fouls. I'm talking about contact on a play-to-play basis that officials don't call that severely limit what an offensive player can do. That's why stats are down even though athletes are getting bigger, faster and stronger, while basketball has been one of the few major sports in America for years now. There is no explanation for players statistically declining and getting worse as much as you claim, unless defenses have become a lot more advanced. And the latter is the case. 

And yes, it's my opinion that Jordan took plays off defensively, just like it's your opinion that he didn't. As far as your question, my guess would be Gary Payton off the top. 

As far as being a ballhog, Jordan took more shots than Kobe in the season he scored 37 points per game. Being a ballhog isn't based on how much you score, it's how much you shoot and hog the ball. Jordan in that year, shot more than Kobe ever has. That makes him more of a ballhog, using standard logic. 

I'm kind of curious as to what you think of Kobe Bryant though, not comparing him to Jordan, but just comparing him to the players of today. I can understand thinking Jordan is better than him, as he is, and I can even understand getting upset at the comparisons like you did, because you're a Bulls fan and Jordan is our guy, but that doesn't really help me gauge what you think of him (Kobe) as a player compared to the top players of today.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Having watched both eras closely, I can't agree that more contact is allowed today. Not even close.


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## xPAGANx (Dec 19, 2005)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Having watched both eras closely, I can't agree that more contact is allowed today. Not even close.


Personally I think contact changes game to game these days. In the past I think refs called a more consistant game.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> You swear that players could pull out a baseball bat and knock you out with it and it wouldn't be called a foul back then, but that just isn't the case. More contact is allowed nowadays without a whistle being blown. Sure, Jordan might have been roughed up, but they were called fouls. I'm talking about contact on a play-to-play basis that officials don't call that severely limit what an offensive player can do. That's why stats are down even though athletes are getting bigger, faster and stronger, while basketball has been one of the few major sports in America for years now. There is no explanation for players statistically declining and getting worse as much as you claim, unless defenses have become a lot more advanced. And the latter is the case.


That's just it, they weren't always even called fouls. That's what you don't get. I've seen the Bulls knock Magic Johnson flat on his *** and no foul, it was a different game. More contact is not allowed. Take that to any reporter on any newspaper (go ahead email someone on the tribune) and they'll laugh in your face. Dude half of Jordan's career had legal hand checks! Stats are down because the NBA is expanded beyond belief, players aren't going to college nearly as much, and the quality of their offensive game is down. The defense is much worse than 88. At least the whole Eastern Conference and the Lakers and Blazers (there were some Western teams that didn't play any D back then like GSW). The latter is not the case.



> And yes, it's my opinion that Jordan took plays off defensively, just like it's your opinion that he didn't. As far as your question, my guess would be Gary Payton off the top.


I backed my opinion with Russell's opinion. Me + Russell v. You = you lose. 



> As far as being a ballhog, Jordan took more shots than Kobe in the season he scored 37 points per game. Being a ballhog isn't based on how much you score, it's how much you shoot and hog the ball. Jordan in that year, shot more than Kobe ever has. That makes him more of a ballhog, using standard logic.


Not really. When you're capable of shooting a higher percentage from the SG position than ELITE OFFENSIVE post players like Karl Malone and Hakeem you're supposed to shoot it as much as possible. That's called being good, not a ballhog. What you're saying is like calling Barry Bonds selfish for swinging for the fences like Sammy Sosa when the fact is that Bonds is so effective doing it that he's just damn good. With that teams offensive options and Jordan's higher FG% the Bulls best option was for Jordan to continue to take it to the hoop over and over and over. Remember, Jordan averaged more assists both of the seasons where he scored 35+ than Kobe is this year. Isn't Kobe hovering somewhere around 4.something assists this year? And before you say look at his team, Jordan's main passing options were Charles Oakley and John Paxson, neither of whom have the scoring ability of Lamar Odom. 



> I'm kind of curious as to what you think of Kobe Bryant though, not comparing him to Jordan, but just comparing him to the players of today. I can understand thinking Jordan is better than him, as he is, and I can even understand getting upset at the comparisons like you did, because you're a Bulls fan and Jordan is our guy, but that doesn't really help me gauge what you think of him (Kobe) as a player compared to the top players of today.


You're reaching for me to say something about Kobe that clearly goes too far so you can write off all of my legitimate points in this thread. Something like if I said "Kobe isn't even as good as TMac." Kobe fans do this all the time. So you can respond with "how can anything you said in this thread be true when you don't even agree that Kobe is better than McGrady!"

Kobe isn't going to have as good of a career as Lebron James or Dwyane Wade. When Kobe goes into a game with Tim Duncan and the Spurs it isn't like when Jordan played Ewing or Olajuwon where you couldn't compare them because they are different positions but MJ just had a much larger presence. Duncan will clearly go down as the better player and is right now with the fact that he's led more teams to rings and has MVPs and Finals MVPs. Is Wade better than Kobe right now? No, but he plays a more Jordanesque style of game and he's better than Kobe at that age and just downright "gets it" more. So I think the players in today's league who are going to go down as "better at any given age than Bryant" are Wade, James, S. O'neal (obviously), and Duncan. I may have missed someone but being about the fifth best player of his era sounds about right. This is assuming that you count players like Jordan, Malone, Pippen, Stockton, Olajuwon and Robinson as being "of a previous era." 

Kobe's eventual legacy is going to be what he does having things "his way." He wanted his own team without the encumberance of Shaquille O'neal on his legacy (DUMB, see Wade "getting it"), he got it! Now if he wins maybe 2 rings, 2 MVPs and 2 finals MVPs with a swingman 3 years younger than him and 10 role players, then you start to have the discussion. However if Kobe never wins another ring, he's really really really going to start looking like more and more of a Shaquille creation over the years. Paxson is more like a young John Havlicek right now than Michael Jordan in terms of individual greantess. He was the second best player on 3 title teams. Hondo went on to lead two teams to greatness later in his career and I certainly don't think that Dave Cowens and Jo Jo White were so much ammo that Havlicek failed to show his true greatness. I think if Lebron becomes considered a SG as time goes on the list of greatest SGs will eventually look like this:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Lebron James
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Jerry West
5. Kobe Bryant

If not then take James out and move everyone else up. 

*So I think I have proper perspective on what Kobe is and how good he is.*


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Patch, PS, please do not take disrespect from my posts. I get very heated on some issues. I respect you. I think your opinions are way the F off on this issue, but opinions are like you know whats and I've seen other ones you've had on other issues that I greatly concurred in. I'm dismissing your opinions, not you.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Maybe you're exaggerating or maybe you're misinformed. Jordan shot 27.8 times per game in 1986-1987 and 25.6 times per game in 1992-1993. Kobe is shooting 27.1 times per game this season, not 32 times like you claimed.


 Kobe is averaging 32 times per 40 minutes. Jordan per 40 minutes in 1986-87 and in 1992-93 still shot less shots then Kobe. Kobe has shot a whopping 102 FGA in his last 3 games!! This guy granted doesnt have much around him, but its not like hes playing with absolute nobodies.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Sith said:


> kobe is the best finisher in the game now. i dont think jordan was better than kobe in driving and finishing around the rim.


What?! you must be to young to remember Jodan Dunking on Ewing and Mutombo. Wow it must be really hard for Kobe to beat someone like Chris Duhon to the basket.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

thebizkit69u said:


> What?! you must be to young to remember Jodan Dunking on Ewing and Mutombo. Wow it must be really hard for Kobe to beat someone like Chris Duhon to the basket.


Kobe fans = are all going to receive a copy of Come Fly with Me for Christmas next year.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> That's just it, they weren't always even called fouls. That's what you don't get. I've seen the Bulls knock Magic Johnson flat on his *** and no foul, it was a different game. More contact is not allowed. Take that to any reporter on any newspaper (go ahead email someone on the tribune) and they'll laugh in your face. Dude half of Jordan's career had legal hand checks! Stats are down because the NBA is expanded beyond belief, players aren't going to college nearly as much, and the quality of their offensive game is down. The defense is much worse than 88. At least the whole Eastern Conference and the Lakers and Blazers (there were some Western teams that didn't play any D back then like GSW). The latter is not the case.


So everyone is actually worse today than they were 20 years. I refuse to believe that, the game evolves, that's a fact. 



Pippenatorade said:


> I backed my opinion with Russell's opinion. Me + Russell v. You = you lose.


Backing your opinion with another opinion? Brilliant. 



Pippenatorade said:


> Not really. When you're capable of shooting a higher percentage from the SG position than ELITE OFFENSIVE post players like Karl Malone and Hakeem you're supposed to shoot it as much as possible. That's called being good, not a ballhog. What you're saying is like calling Barry Bonds selfish for swinging for the fences like Sammy Sosa when the fact is that Bonds is so effective doing it that he's just damn good. With that teams offensive options and Jordan's higher FG% the Bulls best option was for Jordan to continue to take it to the hoop over and over and over. Remember, Jordan averaged more assists both of the seasons where he scored 35+ than Kobe is this year. Isn't Kobe hovering somewhere around 4.something assists this year? And before you say look at his team, Jordan's main passing options were Charles Oakley and John Paxson, neither of whom have the scoring ability of Lamar Odom.


Maybe you're not familiar with Lamar Odom's game, but he is not a guy who is going to give you assists. When you pass him the ball, he is looking to create for himself or other players. 

And no, I'm not saying Michael Jordan is a ballhog, I'm saying it's ridiculous to call a player as gifted as him a ballhog, and the same logic applies to Kobe. Kobe shoots more in the games they win than in the games they lose. That's a fact. So he should shoot less to lose more? You're supposed to win the easiest way possible. And with how the Lakers are assembled right now, Kobe shooting 27 times per game is best for the team. Fact. 



Pippenatorade said:


> You're reaching for me to say something about Kobe that clearly goes too far so you can write off all of my legitimate points in this thread. Something like if I said "Kobe isn't even as good as TMac." Kobe fans do this all the time. So you can respond with "how can anything you said in this thread be true when you don't even agree that Kobe is better than McGrady!"


Actually, I wanted to gauge your opinion on Kobe, because we're comparing him to the consensus greatest player of all-time, which will make any player look bad. But Kobe haters do this all the time, you know, create ridiculous strawman arguments. See I can do it too. You should kill the generalizations. I assume you like this site, because you wanted to come back. Don't ruin it for yourself. 



Pippenatorade said:


> Kobe isn't going to have as good of a career as Lebron James or Dwyane Wade. When Kobe goes into a game with Tim Duncan and the Spurs it isn't like when Jordan played Ewing or Olajuwon where you couldn't compare them because they are different positions but MJ just had a much larger presence. Duncan will clearly go down as the better player and is right now with the fact that he's led more teams to rings and has MVPs and Finals MVPs. Is Wade better than Kobe right now? No, but he plays a more Jordanesque style of game and he's better than Kobe at that age and just downright "gets it" more. So I think the players in today's league who are going to go down as "better at any given age than Bryant" are Wade, James, S. O'neal (obviously), and Duncan. I may have missed someone but being about the fifth best player of his era sounds about right. This is assuming that you count players like Jordan, Malone, Pippen, Stockton, Olajuwon and Robinson as being "of a previous era."


Wade and James are still unproven, and Kobe is better than both of them right now. James has a better chance than Wade, who I think is a great player, but won't ever be as good as Kobe. Kobe would really have to turn it up to pass Duncan and Shaq though. 



Pippenatorade said:


> Kobe's eventual legacy is going to be what he does having things "his way." He wanted his own team without the encumberance of Shaquille O'neal on his legacy (DUMB, see Wade "getting it"), he got it! Now if he wins maybe 2 rings, 2 MVPs and 2 finals MVPs with a swingman 3 years younger than him and 10 role players, then you start to have the discussion. However if Kobe never wins another ring, he's really really really going to start looking like more and more of a Shaquille creation over the years. Paxson is more like a young John Havlicek right now than Michael Jordan in terms of individual greantess. He was the second best player on 3 title teams. Hondo went on to lead two teams to greatness later in his career and I certainly don't think that Dave Cowens and Jo Jo White were so much ammo that Havlicek failed to show his true greatness


What if Shaq never wins another ring, which is looking pretty likely these days? Does that make him Kobe's creation? Surely not. Kobe, like Wade, is a great player independant of Shaq. Teaming him up with another great player is what created the success. Shaq didn't create these guys, or vice versa. 

I also disagree that Kobe will be remembered as the guy who wanted it his way. Shaq demanded a trade, and didn't get along with Buss. Buss said he would re-do that trade 100 times out of 100. Not because of Kobe, but because Shaq and him didn't get along, and Buss didn't like how he kept coming into the season out of shape and lazy, while wanting a huge contract extension longterm. Kobe felt the same way, he just wants to play with players who want to win and work hard at it. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Wade jetted from Miami for the same reason. That's not wanting it your way, that's wanting to win. Shaq is making big money for a long time and doesn't seem to care about winning right now. Same out of shape and lazy player he was in his last days in LA. 



Pippenatorade said:


> 1. Michael Jordan
> 2. Lebron James
> 3. Dwyane Wade
> 4. Jerry West
> ...


Kobe and LeBron could be close down the stretch of their careers, in my opinion. I'd take Dwyane Wade out, he is great, but not that great. I'd move Kobe up to 2/3 with LeBron, unless of course, LeBron becomes greater than Jordan, which is entirely possible. But so much with LeBron is still uncertain though, and I guess the same could be said for Wade.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Pip and Patch, how about cooling your jets on the topic for a little while?

The thread is starting to harsh my mellow.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

thebizkit69u said:


> Kobe is averaging 32 times per 40 minutes. Jordan per 40 minutes in 1986-87 and in 1992-93 still shot less shots then Kobe. Kobe has shot a whopping 102 FGA in his last 3 games!! This guy granted doesnt have much around him, but its not like hes playing with absolute nobodies.


Where are you getting these numbers from? 

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant/index.html

866 attempts in 32 games equals 27.01 attempts. 



thebizkit69u said:


> Kobe has shot a whopping 102 FGA in his last 3 games!!


And he is averaging 47.5 points in those games. He has made 50 of those 102 attempts (51.65% eFG%), and 16 of them have been three pointers. The Lakers are 3-0 in those games.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> Patch, PS, please do not take disrespect from my posts. I get very heated on some issues. I respect you. I think your opinions are way the F off on this issue, but opinions are like you know whats and I've seen other ones you've had on other issues that I greatly concurred in. I'm dismissing your opinions, not you.


 :cheers:


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> So everyone is actually worse today than they were 20 years. I refuse to believe that, the game evolves, that's a fact.


The game does evolve. Sometimes for the better sometimes WORSE! Did you read what I wrote. Players spending less time in college = evolution. Evolution does not have to be positive, it is simply something evolving commensurate with the changing circumstances. More teams and thus more roster spots = a lot more scoring opporunities against guys who wouldn't even have been in the league 20 years ago. So yes, while if you took the same amount of roster spots as there were in 88, and just took THOSE guys, and then sent them all to college, and then had them playing under a collective bargaining agreement where it wasn't just run of the mill to get a 30 million dollar deal, then yes, that sample of players may actually be better because of the greater athletic ability. Oh and that is of course keeping the same officiating rules and standards. But add it all up and yes, the league has actually gotten progressively worse since about 93 (the 92 Bulls for example were better than the 96 Bulls but won 5 less games playing in a far better league). 



> Backing your opinion with another opinion? Brilliant.


The opinion of one of the 5 most respected people to ever touch a basketball, yes. 



> Maybe you're not familiar with Lamar Odom's game, but he is not a guy who is going to give you assists. When you pass him the ball, he is looking to create for himself or other players.
> 
> And no, I'm not saying Michael Jordan is a ballhog, I'm saying it's ridiculous to call a player as gifted as him a ballhog, and the same logic applies to Kobe. Kobe shoots more in the games they win than in the games they lose. That's a fact. So he should shoot less to lose more? You're supposed to win the easiest way possible. And with how the Lakers are assembled right now, Kobe shooting 27 times per game is best for the team. Fact.


First please tell me the shot differential on that. Show me the stat. Also what is the percentage differential. Yes shooting that much is being a ballhog when you average low assists on a mediocre team. Maybe he could do a better job setting his teammates up. I'm not really even saying he is one, or at least I wasn't until egged on. Someone else said it. And you said if he is then Jordan is. And what I'm saying is that if you try to say he is then Jordan is, you're wrong because Jordan is not. If we assume Kobe is one, based on the contention of the first poster and then try to say Jordan is one, we will come up with a different result. If I expressly called Kobe one, it was in response to that logic. 



> Actually, I wanted to gauge your opinion on Kobe, because we're comparing him to the consensus greatest player of all-time, which will make any player look bad. But Kobe haters do this all the time, you know, create ridiculous strawman arguments. See I can do it too. You should kill the generalizations. I assume you like this site, because you wanted to come back. Don't ruin it for yourself.


LOL @ losing an argument and going back what they always go back to, focusing on me despite an express statement of my respect for you. What ridiculous strawman argument did I create? Was it that, or are you fighting a losing battle like it's a winning one.



> Wade and James are still unproven, and Kobe is better than both of them right now. James has a better chance than Wade, who I think is a great player, but won't ever be as good as Kobe. Kobe would really have to turn it up to pass Duncan and Shaq though.


Again you didn't read. I said "at the same age." You can say what you want about Lebron James but here is your opinion against my fact. Lebron AT his age is better than Kobe at the same age, statistically, by leaps and bounds. Lebron in fact, is far better at Jordan at the same age, but as I always told Kobe fans, Michael Jordan is a gold standard that rises as the years go on, and Lebron will have to be better not only at 21, but at 24 and so on. Dwyane Wade at 24 beats Kobe Bryant at 24 in 6 of 7 stats, go check. So like I said, at the same age. I didn't say Wade at 24 is better than Kobe at 28. That is an unfair comparison anyway.



> What if Shaq never wins another ring, which is looking pretty likely these days? Does that make him Kobe's creation? Surely not. Kobe, like Wade, is a great player independant of Shaq. Teaming him up with another great player is what created the success. Shaq didn't create these guys, or vice versa.


Your arguments on this matter are equally foreseeable as they are incorrect. I was talking about level of greatness. We already know that Kobe without Shaq is easily a top 4 player in today's game, I think 5th when the careers of Wade, Lebron, Shaq and Duncan are said and done and all four are better than Bryant at any given SAME age. However, Shaq was the finals MVP on those teams. He was the best player. So if Shaq never wins another ring he'll be known as "the best player on 3 title teams." If Kobe doesn't he'll be known as "the second best player on 3 title teams." He'll be forever remembered with players like Cousy, Havlicek, Frazier, Hayes, Mchale and Pippen (although I'd take Pippen), NOT with players like Jordan, Duncan, O'neal, Bird, Magic, Abdul-Jabbar. Those are different levels of greatness. 



> I also disagree that Kobe will be remembered as the guy who wanted it his way. Shaq demanded a trade, and didn't get along with Buss. Buss said he would re-do that trade 100 times out of 100. Not because of Kobe, but because Shaq and him didn't get along, and Buss didn't like how he kept coming into the season out of shape and lazy, while wanting a huge contract extension longterm. Kobe felt the same way, he just wants to play with players who want to win and work hard at it.


I'm not gonna get into it with someone who thinks that everything that Jim Grey says is the way that it is. Go ask NBA players who they think was at fault in that whole deal. Has Shaq ever been called "the GM" by a player? Yeah too bad Shaq could be as fat and lazy as he wanted to (Kobe and Buss are both way off on that) and he still wins finals MVPs and Kobe hasn't. Kobe fandom opinions on O'neal and Busses idiotic opinions are as laughable as they are irrelevant. Shaq is so fat, lazy, and unlikable that 99% of players in the league love him, he dominated for a decade, he's got an MVP and multiple finals MVP, all media members who don't toss Kobe's salad love Shaq, AND he's so good that Jordan looked like a kid in a candy store practicing with Shaq before the 1996 All Star game. Jordan looked like he was introduced to a young Wilt Chamberlain when he and Shaq were out there going one on one before the All Star Game in 1996 (in the video Above and Beyond). 



> I wouldn't be surprised if Wade jetted from Miami for the same reason. That's not wanting it your way, that's wanting to win. Shaq is making big money for a long time and doesn't seem to care about winning right now. Same out of shape and lazy player he was in his last days in LA.


Shaq won. That's what you don't get. He ate ribs, ate steaks, sat on the couch, whatever you kobe fans want to say he did, and then got up and won 3 rings and 3 finals MVPs. He shot 63% when they lost to Detroit, Kobe shot 36% and yet Kobe wouldn't give the ball up. If you want to get personal on O'neal then O'neal's fans can write an encyclopedia on therapist. 



> Kobe and LeBron could be close down the stretch of their careers, in my opinion. I'd take Dwyane Wade out, he is great, but not that great. I'd move Kobe up to 2/3 with LeBron, unless of course, LeBron becomes greater than Jordan, which is entirely possible. But so much with LeBron is still uncertain though, and I guess the same could be said for Wade.


Wade right now at age 24 has a better stat line than Kobe at 24. That's a FACT.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Pip and Patch, how about cooling your jets on the topic for a little while?
> 
> The thread is starting to harsh my mellow.


Perhaps we should take it to PM Patch. If you want to PM me and we'll keep it civil there. I'm on a short leash as it is so I don't want to be ticking the big cheese off.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

why cant you guys just accept the fact that Kobe Bryant is the best player right now in the National Basketball Association?


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sith said:


> why cant you guys just accept the fact that Kobe Bryant is the best player right now in the National Basketball Association?


This I will respond to. AGain, shouldn't the best player in the NBA have 1 MVP by his 10th season?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Where are you getting these numbers from?
> 
> http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant/index.html
> 
> ...



Ranks #1 in the NBA in Field-Goal Attempts Per 48 Minutes(32.2)

Thats from his NBA.com Profile. And to think that hes going to finish with a 27.01 FGA per game average well his shots are actually on the rise and i would not be surprised if he ended the season averaging over 30 FGA per game.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> The game does evolve. Sometimes for the better sometimes WORSE! Did you read what I wrote. Players spending less time in college = evolution. Evolution does not have to be positive, it is simply something evolving commensurate with the changing circumstances. More teams and thus more roster spots = a lot more scoring opporunities against guys who wouldn't even have been in the league 20 years ago. So yes, while if you took the same amount of roster spots as there were in 88, and just took THOSE guys, and then sent them all to college, and then had them playing under a collective bargaining agreement where it wasn't just run of the mill to get a 30 million dollar deal, then yes, that sample of players may actually be better because of the greater athletic ability. Oh and that is of course keeping the same officiating rules and standards. But add it all up and yes, the league has actually gotten progressively worse since about 93 (the 92 Bulls for example were better than the 96 Bulls but won 5 less games playing in a far better league).


I disagree. Expansion is a result of having a larger pool of talent to choose from. The game has evolved for the better. Why would spending time in college make a player better? Logically, spending those years playing against better competition would make them better players. 



Pippenatorade said:


> First please tell me the shot differential on that. Show me the stat. Also what is the percentage differential. Yes shooting that much is being a ballhog when you average low assists on a mediocre team. Maybe he could do a better job setting his teammates up. I'm not really even saying he is one, or at least I wasn't until egged on. Someone else said it. And you said if he is then Jordan is. * And what I'm saying is that if you try to say he is then Jordan is, you're wrong because Jordan is not.* If we assume Kobe is one, based on the contention of the first poster and then try to say Jordan is one, we will come up with a different result. If I expressly called Kobe one, it was in response to that logic.


The only way I can be *wrong* with that contention is if Kobe is a ballhog, but he isn't. I said if Kobe is a ballhog, then so is Jordan, since he took more shots per game in the year he scored 37 points per game. If you don't think Jordan is a ballhog, then Kobe can't be either. 



Pippenatorade said:


> LOL @ losing an argument and going back what they always go back to, focusing on me despite an express statement of my respect for you. What ridiculous strawman argument did I create? Was it that, or are you fighting a losing battle like it's a winning one.


There is a reason you've been banned in the past, and it's because you attack people. That much is obvious. So you should take that as advice instead of wondering why people end up focusing on you all the time, when you're the one who can't make an argument without attacking people. Your strawman arguments include "You're the type of Kobe fan that says this" type statements, then going out of your way disprove those things, like I ever said them. 



Pippenatorade said:


> Again you didn't read. I said "at the same age." You can say what you want about Lebron James but here is your opinion against my fact. Lebron AT his age is better than Kobe at the same age, statistically, by leaps and bounds. Lebron in fact, is far better at Jordan at the same age, but as I always told Kobe fans, Michael Jordan is a gold standard that rises as the years go on, and Lebron will have to be better not only at 21, but at 24 and so on. Dwyane Wade at 24 beats Kobe Bryant at 24 in 6 of 7 stats, go check. So like I said, at the same age. I didn't say Wade at 24 is better than Kobe at 28. That is an unfair comparison anyway.


Kobe at 24 is better than Wade at 24. 30/7/6 vs. 26/7/6. If you want to stick with the "at the same age" argument, then you have to stick with it. You can't just not include players when it's not conveniant to your argument. I personally think the age argument is silly, because different players develop at different paces. Elton Brand was better than Kevin Garnett at 20 years old, but Garnett was still developing and filling out his game. 



Pippenatorade said:


> Your arguments on this matter are equally foreseeable as they are incorrect. I was talking about level of greatness. We already know that Kobe without Shaq is easily a top 4 player in today's game, I think 5th when the careers of Wade, Lebron, Shaq and Duncan are said and done and all four are better than Bryant at any given SAME age. However, Shaq was the finals MVP on those teams. He was the best player. So if Shaq never wins another ring he'll be known as "the best player on 3 title teams." If Kobe doesn't he'll be known as "the second best player on 3 title teams." He'll be forever remembered with players like Cousy, Havlicek, Frazier, Hayes, Mchale and Pippen (although I'd take Pippen), NOT with players like Jordan, Duncan, O'neal, Bird, Magic, Abdul-Jabbar. Those are different levels of greatness.


Jordan, Duncan, O'Neal, Bird, Magic and Jabbar. They are greater than Kobe, and will likely always be. When you start including Wade and James in individual greatness over Kobe, that's where you went wrong. I was arguing against that. 



Pippenatorade said:


> I'm not gonna get into it with someone who thinks that everything that Jim Grey says is the way that it is. Go ask NBA players who they think was at fault in that whole deal. Has Shaq ever been called "the GM" by a player? Yeah too bad Shaq could be as fat and lazy as he wanted to (Kobe and Buss are both way off on that) and he still wins finals MVPs and Kobe hasn't. Kobe fandom opinions on O'neal and Busses idiotic opinions are as laughable as they are irrelevant. Shaq is so fat, lazy, and unlikable that 99% of players in the league love him, he dominated for a decade, he's got an MVP and multiple finals MVP, all media members who don't toss Kobe's salad love Shaq, AND he's so good that Jordan looked like a kid in a candy store practicing with Shaq before the 1996 All Star game. Jordan looked like he was introduced to a young Wilt Chamberlain when he and Shaq were out there going one on one before the All Star Game in 1996 (in the video Above and Beyond).


More attacks. I hope you get banned again, buddy, you can say you respect me all you want, but when you come off like this, it's just not worth having around. 

As far as Shaq, everything you mentioned ended in 2002. He has been lazy, fat, out of shape and just not nearly as effective as he could be since then. All of his teams in the past 3 seasons plus this season have underachieved. 



Pippenatorade said:


> Shaq won. That's what you don't get. He ate ribs, ate steaks, sat on the couch, whatever you kobe fans want to say he did, and then got up and won 3 rings and 3 finals MVPs. He shot 63% when they lost to Detroit, Kobe shot 36% and yet Kobe wouldn't give the ball up. If you want to get personal on O'neal then O'neal's fans can write an encyclopedia on therapist.


And the Lakers failed to win his last two years there, because he was too lazy and out of shape. Billups killed the Lakers on the break and on pick and rolls, simply because of Shaq. Then he goes to Miami and the Pistons do the same thing to them, even though Miami had a great supporting cast around him and Wade. 

Shaq used to win. He is done. 



Pippenatorade said:


> Wade right now at age 24 has a better stat line than Kobe at 24. That's a FACT.


Might want to check that again.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

thebizkit69u said:


> Ranks #1 in the NBA in Field-Goal Attempts Per 48 Minutes(32.2)
> 
> Thats from his NBA.com Profile. And to think that hes going to finish with a 27.01 FGA per game average well his shots are actually on the rise and i would not be surprised if he ended the season averaging over 30 FGA per game.


PER48, okay I see. You kept saying per 40 minutes, which is the amount of minutes Kobe plays, so I misunderstood what numbers you were using. Jordan, in 1986-197, averaged 33.36 shots per game per 48 minutes.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I disagree. Expansion is a result of having a larger pool of talent to choose from. The game has evolved for the better. Why would spending time in college make a player better? Logically, spending those years playing against better competition would make them better players.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When you want to have the discussion with no mention of me, let me know. If you want to lose arguments and bring out the "you're attacking me card" then have it over PM. I will admit I compared Bryant at 23 to Wade at 24 on accident my mistake. My bad. As far as your arguments, you're trying to bate me into attacking you, and I won't do it. As far as Lebron and Wade you've done what most Kobe fans do when they start smacking Jordan comparisons and get dealt with. You've found another topic where you think that by winning that topic you can say "ah ha! How can your position on Kobe v. MJ be somewhat accurate when you think THIS guy is better than Bryant." It's not only what every Kobe message board fan I've ever known has done, but every Kobe hypester I've ever worked with, gone to school with or known in any capacity has done. Discussion over unless you PM me.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> When you want to have the discussion with no mention of me, let me know. If you want to lose arguments and bring out the "you're attacking me card" then have it over PM. I will admit I compared Bryant at 23 to Wade at 24 on accident my mistake. My bad. As far as your arguments, you're trying to bate me into attacking you, and I won't do it. As far as Lebron and Wade you've done what most Kobe fans do when they start smacking Jordan comparisons and get dealt with. You've found another topic where you think that by winning that topic you can say "ah ha! How can your position on Kobe v. MJ be somewhat accurate when you think THIS guy is better than Bryant." It's not only what every Kobe message board fan I've ever known has done, but every Kobe hypester I've ever worked with, gone to school with or known in any capacity has done. Discussion over unless you PM me.


You've already attacked me several times, I don't know what I'd have to bate you for. You have greatly misunderstood my intentions if you think I tried to "sucker" you into saying something bad about Kobe in comparison to today's player. Listen, if I compare Ray Allen to Jordan, it's going to make Ray look bad, so I wanted to get your stance on Kobe compared to today's players, because comparing him to Jordan will make him look a lot worse than you actually think he is. And I was right, your opinion of Kobe is a lot higher than I thought it was when you were arguing him against Jordan. See what I did there? 

My argument is that Kobe is a great player who gets little respect from folks like yourself, and that he isn't as far from Jordan as people think. Jordan is better than Kobe in every aspect of the game, not a great deal better. Scoring, both great, Jordan slightly better. Rebounding and passing, same thing. Defense, same thing. Both have the same dictator leadership qualities, except Jordan had Pippen who was there to pat guys on the back, so it was a great balance. 

If you want this discussion to be over, fine. I don't come to this site to PM people. As a suggestion, quit attacking people if you plan to stick around. You didn't get banned the first time for nothing.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> My argument is that Kobe is a great player who gets little respect from folks like yourself, and that he isn't as far from Jordan as people think. Jordan is better than Kobe in every aspect of the game, not a great deal better. Scoring, both great, Jordan slightly better. Rebounding and passing, same thing. Defense, same thing. Both have the same dictator leadership qualities, except Jordan had Pippen who was there to pat guys on the back, so it was a great balance.


No it's not the same thing. When you score 5 more PPG on 6% higher FGs over a span of 7 seasons than another player it's not slightly better. Is Kobe not even close to Jordan as a scorer? No. But Jordan is clearly better. Jordan is SLIGHTLY better as a rebounder and passer. And when you almost double someone up in SPG and BPG again over a 7 year period at the same ages, while also being the only guard in my short memory to win a DPOY you are clearly better. Not ridiculously better, just clearly. That's all I'm saying. And I've always found it curious that Kobe fans dare bring up Pippen like Kobe didn't have one of the greatest players of all time in O'neal. Now if you want to say "yeah well that obviously will affect Kobe's stats" that is partially true (having Shaq should make your APG, SPG, BPG and FG% better, and have no effect on FT%) but then if you take Shaq away from Kobe, does he get those 3 rings? I know Jordan would have won rings with 10 other guys in the NBA besides Pippen, maybe even 15-20. In fact I'd go so far as to say that if you gave Jordan Reggie Miller and 10 role players, he still wins rings and would have played PG (as he did so successfully for 50 games in 1989). 

Kobe is better than your more staunch Jordan fans are going to admit. If a guy has Michael Jordan towels in his bathroom you are right, there is probably a good chance he'll go so overboard in his pro-Jordan arguments as to discredit Kobe to the point that he tries to say Kobe's game is not as valid as it is. But when you see scoring you can't take this year or February 2003 and compare it to Jordan as if that's Kobe's whole career as a scorer. What I did was take 7 years of comparisons at the same age and you see that although Kobe sometimes will remind you of Jordan, there are many other times when he's a lot farther than you probably want to admit. You can't take Kobe this season and say "Jordan's only a slightly better scorer." Take the whole body of work and look at it. Jordan scored like he did consistently over time shooting 49.7% for his career despite playing his first game at age 21 and his last game at age *40*. As a 40 year old the man shot 44.5% in TODAY's NBA. That's insane. Kobe is shooting 44.3% this year as a 28 year old, only 3 years later. Has the league changed that much? Because if MJ could do that at 40, imagine what he could do in today's NBA at age 28. I look at it more like this. MJ v. Kobe =

Clearly better as a scorer
Slightly better as a rebounder
Slightly better as a passer
Convincingly better as a defender
Slightly better at free throws

That's what I see *over time*. Now if Kobe were to keep playing like this (but remember he's only averaging 5.8 RPG and 4.5 APG this season) and his CAREER scoring average (again after the age of 20 because it's unfair to compare Kobe at 17-20 to MJ) improves over time and his FG% improves over time, then in 4 years you may be able to say "yeah, now if you compare 11 years of Jordan and Kobe at the same ages, through his consistent play, Kobe is only slightly worse than Jordan as a scorer." And that's fine. But he has to do that first. That's all I'm saying. Tell me when Kobe's career PPG after the age of 20 is within 3 PPG of Jordan, or when his career FG% in this same time is within 3% of Jordan's, again compared at the same age over time. Then I'd grant you "slightly."



> If you want this discussion to be over, fine. I don't come to this site to PM people. As a suggestion, quit attacking people if you plan to stick around. You didn't get banned the first time for nothing.


This is a non-topic to me. You are a good poster and I respect you. If that is not enough for you and you perceive what I have said in this thread as an attack, then PM me. If not, it's a non-discussion. I don't think I've broken any rules in this thread. And yes, I fully acknowledge that I did not get banned the first *two times* for nothing. I hope I've improved and that's one reason I implored you to take it to PM if you view it as personal.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Steals and blocks from a perimeter player don't mean much. Kobe is just as good of a defender as Mike was. Mike was able to take plays off defensively because of Pippen being a better perimeter defender and being able to cover the other teams best perimeter player.
> 
> Jordan also never had to deal with the new zone rule, which allows teams to hard double team you. That rule change alone throws off the statistical comparison. If Kobe could go at a defense that wasn't allowed to touch you and couldn't double team you, he would probably average close to 40 points too my friend.
> 
> ...


You are living in a dream world.....


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Anybody who thinks Kobe's just as good a defender as MJ or even close has obviously never watched MJ play. You've never had any credibility regarding Kobe anyway, Patchwork, but this is the absolute WORST. How old are you?


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> Anybody who thinks Kobe's just as good a defender as MJ or even close has obviously never watched MJ play. You've never had any credibility regarding Kobe anyway, Patchwork, but this is the absolute WORST. How old are you?


Dude don't you know. The only reason that MJ could average 2.88 SPG in 1986-87 is because Scottie Pippen was showing up in his Central Arkansas uniform and killing the other teams best scorer


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> Anybody who thinks Kobe's just as good a defender as MJ or even close has obviously never watched MJ play. You've never had any credibility regarding Kobe anyway, Patchwork, but this is the absolute WORST. How old are you?


Coming from someone who admits he roots against the guy, aka hates him, that means a lot. Your credibility on Kobe is shot.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> Dude don't you know. The only reason that MJ could average 2.88 SPG in 1986-87 is because Scottie Pippen was showing up in his Central Arkansas uniform and killing the other teams best scorer


And Kobe is only good because Shaq "created" him.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Coming from someone who admits he roots against the guy, aka hates him, that means a lot. Your credibility on Kobe is shot.


I do root against Kobe, but I'm not blind. Saying Kobe's on MJ's level defensively is a JOKE, period. Even the biggest Kobe homers who worship him 24/7(and have seen someone called MJ play) won't agree with you here. MJ's bar none the greatest 1-on-1 perimeter defender I've seen and is largely regarded as the best perimeter defender EVER. Kobe on the other hand.....uhhh....if u've seen him play, then u know where he belongs(and that's not anywhere close to MJ's league).


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

SPMJ said:


> I do root against Kobe, but I'm not blind. Saying Kobe's on MJ's level defensively is a JOKE, period. Even the biggest Kobe homers who worship him 24/7(and have seen someone called MJ play) won't agree with you here. MJ's bar none the greatest 1-on-1 perimeter defender I've seen and is largely regarded as the best perimeter defender EVER. Kobe on the other hand.....uhhh....if u've seen him play, then u know where he belongs(and that's not anywhere close to MJ's league).


Hmmm I always thought Pippen was a better defender than Michael. Didn't Pippen always take the opposing team's best player?


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## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

if mj needed to, hed put up 50 EVERY SINGLE NIGHT...


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## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> And Kobe is only good because Shaq "created" him.


what has kobe done w/o shaq? seriously?


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> I do root against Kobe, *but I'm not blind.*


Very debatable.


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## Cyanobacteria (Jun 25, 2002)

Here's the problem(s) I have with arguing Kobe's D versus MJ's....

It is often argued that MJ took plays off on D. Granted, Pip often guarded the opposition's best player so MJ could conserve energy. This, in and of itself, does NOT constitute _taking plays off_. MJ was still ALWAYS either the #1 or #2 defensive player on one of the greatest defensive teams OF ALL TIME! A team that pressured all over the floor at times and disrupted other teams to no end. 

Here's part of why Pip usually took the other teams best player: For a while it was thought that to beat the Bulls you should attempt to wear out MJ when he was playing D, run him through tons of picks, post him up repeatedly, etc. Usually this resulted in the other player's repeated embarassment, but if you have the privaledge of coaching 2 of the best defenders of all time, then why even _risk_ the season-long wear and tear on MJ when you have Pip?

Here is what I call taking plays off on D: guarding your guy on the perimeter, getting picked, and then not fighting through the pick or even helping on the picker. I've been picked, I'm out of the play, might as well head to the other end, maybe one of the interior guys will block my man's shot. I've seen Kobe do this so many times I call it "the Kobe special."

IMO, Kobe gets _recognized_ for occasionally _looking_ ferocious on the perimeter when his man has the ball. You cannot convince me, however, that this is in attempt to play great team D and not so that Kobe can get a steal and an open-court highlight dunk, because I cannot remember a single instance of Kobe looking that ferocious at any other aspect of defense. For crying out loud, the Kings useed to isolate Bonzi Wells on him in the post because Kobe could not handle him.


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## Cyanobacteria (Jun 25, 2002)

Oh yeah, and I hate Kobe too.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

I don't hate Kobe, but I do agree that he is far overrated.....


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