# Jamison to the Cavs



## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Cavs get Jamison*

According to Washington Post...details to come.

Interestingly enough, Amare was told he will be playing against he Mavs.

Sigh of relief, Jamison is a darn good player, but he's no Amare.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

According to Brian Windhorst's twitter:



> Washington Post reports the Cavs have traded for Antawn Jamison


Link


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*

Damn. I was really interested to watch that Cavs with Amare.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*

It's a shame they didn't get Amare...


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*

HB, who was first with this thread, you or me?


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## Futurama_Fanatic (Jul 21, 2005)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*

i wonder what they gave up


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*

The Wizards are getting Zdrunas and a 1st although there is a 3rd team involved. Drew Gooden is also getting moved to that 3rd team.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*

Sucks to see them get one high quality big, but it's better then them getting Amar'e.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*

This is definitive proof that Kerr was just using Cleveland to leverage Miami into including Beasley in the deal for Amare. Miami probably never offered Beasley.

Phoenix could have accepted that Hickson deal, Riley called Kerr's bluff but of course Steve wasn't going to actually OK that deal. Hickson is nothing. Poor Kerr, he has the right idea but he's so far outclassed going up against the master.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*

They haven't given up Hickson? Wow, Jamison/Hickson is brilliant. 

He's no Amare, but overall that might be a better trade.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*



FX™ said:


> They haven't given up Hickson? Wow, Jamison/Hickson is brilliant.
> 
> He's no Amare, but overall that might be a better trade.


We don't know the details yet but I'm sure it's Big Z + Hickson + pick.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*



Adam said:


> This is definitive proof that Kerr was just using Cleveland to leverage Miami into including Beasley in the deal for Amare. Miami probably never offered Beasley.
> 
> Phoenix could have accepted that Hickson deal, Riley called Kerr's bluff but of course Steve wasn't going to actually OK that deal. Hickson is nothing. Poor Kerr, he has the right idea but he's so far outclassed going up against the master.


It's not definitive proof of anything. It's entirely plausible that Cleveland decided they were better off picking up Jamison and keeping Hickson than giving Amare a max contract. Nobody ever talks about this, but Jamison is having a very similar season to Amare. His shooting percentage isn't as good, but then again he doesn't have Steve Nash and several shooters spreading the floor. I'm not convinced Amare was a better move for the Cavs, all things considered.

EDIT: This is assuming, of course, that Hickson is indeed staying in Cleveland.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*

Clippers are in on the deal too. Its Jamison and Shaq by the way not Jamison/Hickson.

Adam I'll merge posts.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*

From Woj's twitter:



> Cavs get Jamison and Telfair, Clippers get Drew Gooden and Wash gets Illgauskas, Al Thornton and Brian Skinner and Cavs 1st round pick


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*



Bogg said:


> It's not definitive proof of anything. It's entirely plausible that Cleveland decided they were better off picking up Jamison and keeping Hickson than giving Amare a max contract. Nobody ever talks about this, but Jamison is having a very similar season to Amare. His shooting percentage isn't as good, but then again he doesn't have Steve Nash and several shooters spreading the floor. I'm not convinced Amare was a better move for the Cavs, all things considered.
> 
> EDIT: This is assuming, of course, that Hickson is indeed staying in Cleveland.


The Heat have maintained that they have not offered Beasley. Even Mickey Arison who has never spoken once before during a trade deadline said that he wasn't trading Beasley. And JA Adande reported the Miami deal as being without Beasley.

The Cavs were waiting on Phoenix to give the nod. This was their #2 deal. Phoenix never OK'd which is why they went after Jamison.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Good deal for Cavs, their key guys remain untouched. Though Z wasn't a bad option of the bench.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Zero doubt now that Washington is going ahead with voiding Arenas. No way can you have Arenas and Thornton on the same team.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

wow Jams for a ****ty 1st and Ziggy...christ.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Al Thornton and Telfair for Drew Gooden? Wtf?


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*



Adam said:


> The Heat have maintained that they have not offered Beasley. Even Mickey Arison who has never spoken once before during a trade deadline said that he wasn't trading Beasley. And JA Adande reported the Miami deal as being without Beasley.
> 
> The Cavs were waiting on Phoenix to give the nod. This was their #2 deal. Phoenix never OK'd which is why they went after Jamison.


Definitive proof would be some sort of firsthand statement from Kerr that they were never seriously considering Cleveland's offer. What you're stating is plausible, but it's also possible that either Phoenix or Cleveland changed their mind at the last moment or any other number of potential situations. A plausible theory is not the same as a proven fact.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

HB said:


> Good deal for Cavs, their key guys remain untouched. Though Z wasn't a bad option of the bench.


Big Z will probably get bought out and go back to Cleveland.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

The Wizards have really ****ed this up. They've given away the three best players on the team for almost nothing. You have to do something to make it look like there is something your fans can hope for.The last pick in the first round sucks. You're giving a guaranteed contract to some random guy who isn't likely to help you. I'd rather have the 31st pick.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Good move for the Cavs and even better since they'll likely get Z back. Although Amar'e would've been even more exciting...I suppose he's heading towards Miami now.



Diable said:


> The Wizards have really ****ed this up. They've given away the three best players on the team for almost nothing. You have to do something to make it look like there is something your fans can hope for.The last pick in the first round sucks. You're giving a guaranteed contract to some random guy who isn't likely to help you. I'd rather have the 31st pick.


Yup...just one of many reasons why major changes are needed in the upcoming CBA.


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

are you kidding me? Jamison essentially for a 1st rd pick? Danny Ferry just ****ed WAS in the arse, methinks.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Not a bad move. Jamison will help spread the floor but I wouldn't be too happy about him. He tends to wander around the perimeter too much and has always put up hollow stats. 

But from a talent perspective, this was a good deal for the Cavs.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

The worst move Washington made was trading their top 5 pick for two veteran players that were going to make them a top team in the East (HA!)


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

myst said:


> The worst move Washington made was trading their top 5 pick for two veteran players that were going to make them a top team in the East (HA!)


It was semi-defensible at the time, but in hindsight that move was an complete disaster, more so than Memphis picking Thabeet over Evans. At least Thabeet might turn into a decent defender in time, Washington's likely to have nothing to show for the fifth pick in the draft one year later.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

This is a great deal for Cleveland. Jamison is a GREAT player and can extend his range to allow him and Shaq to operate. He's great on the pick and roll, and he's a rebounding machine. They also don't even give up Hickson and will most likely get big Z back. Which means they got Jamison for a worthless first round pick. Their front line depth is insane. Andy, Jamison, Shaq, Hickson, Big Z.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Telfair on the Cavs, I no longer hate the Cavs


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## Daniels (Jan 24, 2009)

The fact that they didn't give up Hickson is crazy. Cavs must either be really high on him, or the Suns deal was never legit.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Hickson sucks. He has to start because he gives you nothing as a sub. Varejao and Jamison will get all the minutes and I'll be shocked if Hickson scores a single meaningful basket in the playoffs.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

You should watch some basketball...It's pretty clear that you haven't. I don't know why you should get so buttsore because noone loves Beasley. He's just being misused...which is why his coach doesn't trust him not to doze off in crunch time.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Diable said:


> You should watch some basketball...It's pretty clear that you haven't. I don't know why you should get so buttsore because noone loves Beasley. He's just being misused...which is why his coach doesn't trust him not to doze off in crunch time.


You're so ****ing random. What does Beasley have to do with anything? I wasn't even aware that noone loved Beasley let alone was I buttsore about anything related to that. The only thing that's evident is you taking another thread off on a tangent because of some North Carolina association.


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## Daniels (Jan 24, 2009)

Adam said:


> Hickson sucks. He has to start because he gives you nothing as a sub. Varejao and Jamison will get all the minutes and I'll be shocked if Hickson scores a single meaningful basket in the playoffs.


I donno if he sucks or not from first hand knowledge, to be honest I haven't seen much of the Cavs this year. That said, consensus has been he's a pretty good player and rookie, and if I were a trading partner, I'd ask for that chip. He's been discussed with the Suns as such, and it has been taken seriously, so I'd assume he doesn't just plain suck.

So that leads me to believe that if I'm the Wizards, and I'm obviously in rebuilding mode, the things I'd want are expiring contracts and solid rookies. The fact that they only got one of these two things leads me to believe that Hickson is obviously valued highly by the Cavs, and from the reports that have occurred over the past couple weeks, likely other teams out there as well.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Daniels said:


> I donno if he sucks or not from first hand knowledge, to be honest I haven't seen much of the Cavs this year. That said, consensus has been he's a pretty good player and rookie, and if I were a trading partner, I'd ask for that chip. He's been discussed with the Suns as such, and it has been taken seriously, so I'd assume he doesn't just plain suck.
> 
> So that leads me to believe that if I'm the Wizards, and I'm obviously in rebuilding mode, the things I'd want are expiring contracts and solid rookies. The fact that they only got one of these two things leads me to believe that Hickson is obviously valued highly by the Cavs, and from the reports that have occurred over the past couple weeks, likely other teams out there as well.


I'm using a fair amount of hyperbole. He doesn't "suck" but he isn't going to be much more than a glue guy.


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## TheBowski (Jun 12, 2002)

I feel bad for Z, he better get bought out and sign back with the Cavs. If they win the championship without him, I'll feel significantly less happy about it.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

If Was can void the Arenas deal, then it would be a perfect implosion. Arenas wasn't ever taking them anywhere, their best seasons were barely over .500. It wasn't gonna work.

I would rather start new with Blatche, McGee and youth. That old overpaid team wasn't gonna do anything.


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## Daniels (Jan 24, 2009)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*

Interesting, I can still say that the trade that went down is pretty light, and I'd think you'd agree as well, yes?



Adam said:


> We don't know the details yet but I'm sure it's Big Z + Hickson + pick.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

It's shocking that Washington didn't get Hickson when you consider that the Cavs pick will be #30. I'm done defending Ernie Grunfeld. I've always had his back since he got Sprewell and Camby for absolutely nothing and then got canned in New York because they struggled for a mere month and then his players that he brought in led the team to the finals.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Z will be back with the Cavs within 30 days: that's a buyout waiting to happen.
Sweet Jamison for a ****ty 1st rounder: Ferry with another slick move

He's basically this offseason till now will have traded Ben Wallace, Pavlosuck, and Wally World, plus late first rounder for Shaq and Jamsion.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Well, I have yet to see Jamison do anything meaningful in the playoffs so I am not overly impressed by this. Amare would have taken the Cavs to the title with Lebron at the helm. As it stands Jamison still doesn't give them length to combat the Lakers.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

*Re: Cavs get Jamison*



Adam said:


> This is definitive proof that Kerr was just using Cleveland to leverage Miami into including Beasley in the deal for Amare. Miami probably never offered Beasley.
> 
> Phoenix could have accepted that Hickson deal, Riley called Kerr's bluff but of course Steve wasn't going to actually OK that deal. Hickson is nothing. Poor Kerr, he has the right idea but he's so far outclassed going up against the master.


Kerr commented this morning he didn't have to do anything with him though. Whether he was trying to gain leverage and ****ed up, by those comments and waiting it out, I don't care. I'm just so glad he didn't give away Amare for that Cleveland garbage. 

And I'd rather he walks away for nothing instead of showing the NBA they can get bent over AGAIN in another trade. It's worse.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Pioneer10 said:


> Z will be back with the Cavs within 30 days: that's a buyout waiting to happen.
> Sweet Jamison for a ****ty 1st rounder: Ferry with another slick move
> 
> He's basically this offseason till now will have traded Ben Wallace, Pavlosuck, and Wally World, plus late first rounder for Shaq and Jamsion.


They still have Wally's rights, he's working as an analyst for ESPN U or something. Theoretically, Cleveland could resign Wally to a deal with only this year guaranteed, package him with Hickson, and take back Jason Richardson or some other vet with an unsavory contract.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Jamison is a great fit for the Cavs. He's gonna kill it next to Shaq and LeBron.

Very underrated player.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Wiz fans should definitely stop showing up to games. Thats how you send a message to a ****ty front office.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

If you get Jamison for essentially nothing it's hard to see how you criticize it. I mean this is the kind of pick you use on some Euro that you're going to let develop for three years before you bring him over...Sort of pick teams dump on draft day if they don't see someone who can make their roster.

I don't know who is in charge in Washington, but they must figure the snow will protect them from mobs with pitchforks and torches. They must not think anyone cares if they give away the entire team for nothing.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Well, at least it's no Amare...but still a damn good trade for Cleveland.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

If they don't get Z back, I don't like this deal. They better hope Washington is willing to waive him. A Shaq-Jamison-Hickson-Varejao unit does not scare me because only Shaq is the only one who could bother Gasol or Bynum in the paint (I would say Varejao, but he's not a shotblocker).


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

HKF said:


> If they don't get Z back, I don't like this deal. They better hope Washington is willing to waive him. A Shaq-Jamison-Hickson-Varejao unit does not scare me because only Shaq is the only one who could bother Gasol or Bynum in the paint (I would say Varejao, but he's not a shotblocker).


I've watched every Cavs/Laker game over the last few years. Anderson does a very good job on Gasol: Anderson can't handle bulldozers like Bynum or Howard but he has lot of length and tenacity to bother post guys who depend more on there post moves like Gasol.

Odom has created havoc for the Lakers on the Cavs but now with Jamison that's a much better matchup as Odom has to defend both ways. Jamison is the guy for the Odom and Lewis' of the world. They'll have Shaq for Bynum and Howard and AV for the rest. 

Plus I'd be shocked if Z isn't bought out: that would save the Wiz a few more million


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

This trade is a perfect example of what's wrong with the NBA


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol says the guy whose team also robbed others to win a championship. Shots are being fired in the East, I like it.

This move was made because of Orlando and the Lakers though.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

How is this a perfect example? To date, what has Antwan Jamison done in his career that makes this some horrible thing? I mean he has pretty stats, but he has only been out of the first round once in his 12 year career and he was swept that year. This guy has barely played any meaningful basketball in his NBA career.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Marcus13 said:


> This trade is a perfect example of what's wrong with the NBA


Not really, if this was the NFL then Washington would have just terminated his contract and he would have signed with Cleveland anyway. This way Washington gets a pick out of it. The MLB is even worse.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

buahahahaha

this means Riley has all the leverage in the world vs Kerr now. Amare to Miami?

you would think Kerr would have learned his lesson when dealing with Riley The Flim Flam Man after the Shaq trade. Riley could sell ice to eskimos.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

ChrisRichards said:


> buahahahaha
> 
> this means Riley has all the leverage in the world vs Kerr now. Amare to Miami?
> 
> you would think Kerr would have learned his lesson when dealing with Riley The Flim Flam Man after the Shaq trade. Riley could sell ice to eskimos.


Did you see Shaq in PHX (especially that 2nd yr)? He played great. 

Marion was a DISASTER in Miami.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

hahahahahahahahahaha

Thank you Washington


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

ChrisRichards said:


> buahahahaha
> 
> this means Riley has all the leverage in the world vs Kerr now. Amare to Miami?
> 
> you would think Kerr would have learned his lesson when dealing with Riley The Flim Flam Man after the Shaq trade. Riley could sell ice to eskimos.


Yeah Riley did great with the Shaq trade. He trade Shaq for his crappy younger brother Jermaine.

That was sarcasm by the way. Riley hasn't had a great trade since Posey and Williams for Eddie Jones.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Jamel Irief said:


> Yeah Riley did great with the Shaq trade. He trade Shaq for his crappy younger brother Jermaine.
> 
> That was sarcasm by the way. Riley hasn't had a great trade since Posey and Williams for Eddie Jones.


Don't forget the Bulls loom as a dark-horse candidate to put together an attractive package for Amare at the last minute, and the Thunder could offer two first rounders(their own and Phoenix's) plus expirings and any number of players on rookie contracts. It's not like Miami is now the only team that can make an offer on Amare.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

Diable said:


> If you get Jamison for essentially nothing it's hard to see how you criticize it. I mean this is the kind of pick you use on some Euro that you're going to let develop for three years before you bring him over...Sort of pick teams dump on draft day if they don't see someone who can make their roster.
> 
> I don't know who is in charge in Washington, but they must figure the snow will protect them from mobs with pitchforks and torches. They must not think anyone cares if they give away the entire team for nothing.


As someone in the DC area who's lived through the last nine seasons of (most often) ill-conceived Wizards maneuvering, I'd say that at this point they're doing what they have to do. They simply can't move Arenas. They had to move their other three really tradeable assets by the trade deadline, and every opposing GM had them over a barrel and everyone knew it. Washington had zero leverage. 

Make no mistake - they plan to suck the rest of this season and next. The highest priority was to empty the roster of big veteran contracts, to the extent possible. Getting future value in return was a distant second, and you don't want any meaningful current talent that might endanger the squad from sucking as badly as it needs to. 

The typical Wizards fan (and I know lots of them, and listen to at least 90 minutes of local sports radio a day) is pretty content with/resigned to what's happening. The more delusional among them are still hoping the team will find a way to void Arenas' contract. And pretty close to a person, they are happy to see Jamison go, both because the team wasn't going anywhere with him as the remaining big gun and because he's widely perceived as a classy professional who played his guts out for the team and deserves a better fate elsewhere.

Hickson would've been great, but a few stale crumbs are better than no deal at this point.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

prophecy fulfilled


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

> And pretty close to a person, they are happy to see Jamison go, both because the team wasn't going anywhere with him as the remaining big gun and because he's widely perceived as a classy professional who played his guts out for the team and deserves a better fate elsewhere.


After getting over the disappointment of not seeing Amare and Lebron together, I felt exactly the same way. I've always liked Jamison, and this will probably his last chance to really do something meaningful.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

So what is the pick that that Washington got? The crawl on ESPN says future 1st rounder. If it's a 2011 pick and Lebron leaves then maybe you get lucky...If Lebron left and they didn't replace him with another big name the Cavs could really be bad next year.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Great trade for CLE. The fact we get to keep 21 year old Hickson to develop at PF means we basically swapped a late 1st rounder (it's 2010 pick) for Jamison. That's pretty much highway robbery any way you slice it. 

Amare would have been nice due to the age difference, but realistically MIA could have easily come in at the last second and trumped our offer. PHX was stalling waiting for Riley to offer up Beasley, etc. I doubt they were seriously considering CLE proposal, just using it as leverage as Riley wouldn't want to see two top FA targets off the market (James + Amare).

Basically for what we had to give up relative to what we got back, this was a home-run deal for CLE. 

CLE roster:

PG - Mo / Delonte / Gibson / Telfair
SG - Parker / Delonte / Danny Green
SF - LBJ / Moon / Jawad Williams
PF - Jamison / Hickson / Powe 
C - Shaq / Varejao / Z 

That is a nice lineup around Lebron's strengths. Teams really will have to pick their poison and the spacing will be great for Shaq and LBJ.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

I have to say, with the lack of big men, the Wiz now sport one of the tallest, youngest frontlines in the east. If you're gonna lose, do it with young and cheap players ! 

Blatche, McGee and Thornton have as much upside as anyone. And there is no pressure so they can just go play. Might be special by 2011 or 2012.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Is this payback for Larry Hughes?

Cavs extinguish the Wizards' chances again. This is like Chicago on the Daugherty Cavs or Barkley.

Who knew that the '05-06 Wizards were basically on their final run? If you had told me they would be in the ECF this year with the same three and maybe a SG like J-Rich I would've believed it.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Really hoping Dallas goes after Z


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## kidd2rj (Jan 29, 2005)

i really want the NBA to close this loophole that allows players to get traded, waived, and sign back with the team that traded them. it is happening way too often and teams are abusing it. simple fix is to make the deadline for players to be eligible for the playoffs occur before the 30 days are up and a player can resign with their old team


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

LA68 said:


> I have to say, with the lack of big men, the Wiz now sport one of the tallest, youngest frontlines in the east. If you're gonna lose, do it with young and cheap players !
> 
> Blatche, McGee and Thornton have as much upside as anyone. And there is no pressure so they can just go play. Might be special by 2011 or 2012.


Thornton is 26 years old, so what you see is pretty much what you get. He's a good bench player and not much else


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

kidd2rj said:


> i really want the NBA to close this loophole that allows players to get traded, waived, and sign back with the team that traded them. it is happening way too often and teams are abusing it. simple fix is to make the deadline for players to be eligible for the playoffs occur before the 30 days are up and a player can resign with their old team



If you're going to make it more difficult for teams to orchestrate salary dumps then you also have to address guaranteed contracts somehow. Bad teams need a way to extricate themselves from contracts that no longer make sense or they're stuck in a hopeless situation for several years. This years' contenders and the teams looking to get Lebron in free agency may not like this trade, but Washington is better off tonight than they were two weeks ago.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Diable said:


> Thornton is 26 years old, so what you see is pretty much what you get. He's a good bench player and not much else


Being with the Clips is like a wormhole where time stands still and injuries multiply. 

There have been quite a few players who left the Clips and became good players. I have always liked Thornton. But, when your team loses faith in you , not much you can do. 

He only needs a new address and a chance. He doesn't have to be a superstar, just get the Clipper stink off him and play his game.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

LA68 said:


> Being with the Clips is like a wormhole where time stands still and injuries multiply.
> 
> There have been quite a few players who left the Clips and became good players. I have always liked Thornton. But, when your team loses faith in you , not much you can do.
> 
> He only needs a new address and a chance. He doesn't have to be a superstar, just get the Clipper stink off him and play his game.


Thornton is a big, strong forward who can score in bunches and rebound, but doesn't defend, shoot from range, or make anybody else better. He's Corey Maggette on a franchise-friendly contract. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, just that it's the reality.


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## kidd2rj (Jan 29, 2005)

Bogg said:


> If you're going to make it more difficult for teams to orchestrate salary dumps then you also have to address guaranteed contracts somehow. Bad teams need a way to extricate themselves from contracts that no longer make sense or they're stuck in a hopeless situation for several years. This years' contenders and the teams looking to get Lebron in free agency may not like this trade, but Washington is better off tonight than they were two weeks ago.


so are you saying cleveland doesn't make this deal if Z doesn't get waived and return? that's exactly why the loophole should be closed. I'm sure the Magic and Celtics are thrilled that Cleveland got a very good player without having to give up anything substantial. i really hope cuban throws the monkey wrench into this and throws a ton of money at Z to come to Dallas


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Just saw a quick interview with Dunleavy, he says the Clips will try to grab a big FA in the off season.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

What a bullcrap foul call against Josh Smith. All ball.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

kidd2rj said:


> so are you saying cleveland doesn't make this deal if Z doesn't get waived and return?


No, I'm saying in other instances the kind of restrictions you're looking for can hamper a rebuilding teams' ability to unload a bad contract, or reduce the other assets they're offered with the buy-out candidate. I understand your concern regarding top teams picking up additional talent for nothing, but if you're going to restrict the ability of teams to start the rebuilding process one way it seems reasonable to provide another means for them to do so.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

HKF said:


> What a bullcrap foul call against Josh Smith. All ball.


I don't know what he was supposed to do there ? It was textbook !


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

So is Big Z more than likely going to be bought out and picked back up by the Cavs?


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

If I were Z and this could be his last season, I wouldn't buy out a thing. I would take every cent and enjoy my retirement. When he goes, so does the gravy train.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Please don't tell me anyone thinks Hickson is better than Al Thornton.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

LA68 said:


> If I were Z and this could be his last season, I wouldn't buy out a thing. I would take every cent and enjoy my retirement. When he goes, so does the gravy train.


Big Z would make a considerable amount of money on the Cavs since they would probably be a deep playoff team.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

f22egl said:


> Big Z would make a considerable amount of money on the Cavs since they would probably be a deep playoff team.


There is this thing call the "salary cap". You may have heard of it. The Cavs are light years beyond it therefore can only offer the minimum salary to any player such as Z. 

He would be a fool to accept a buyout more than that minimum. Otherwise he would lose money to play four months. Now is the time to pile up money as that train is ending very soon for Z.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

LA68 said:


> There is this thing call the "salary cap". You may have heard of it. The Cavs are light years beyond it therefore can only offer the minimum salary to any player such as Z.
> 
> He would be a fool to accept a buyout more than that minimum. Otherwise he would lose money to play four months. Now is the time to pile up money as that train is ending very soon for Z.


Yup they would offer Big Z the minimum. For some reason, I thought NBA players receive additional money depending on far they go in the playoffs.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

BTW, the Wizards are under the luxury tax threshold since Brian Skinner wasn't included in the deal, so they have no incentive to buy out Big Z unless he decides to take less money.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

f22egl said:


> Yup they would offer Big Z the minimum. For some reason, I thought NBA players receive additional money depending on far they go in the playoffs.


Of course. What I mean is I would not lose more on the buyout than what what I would get from a playoff run. You make sense there !


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

If the Wizards can void Gilbert I'll be tumescent nh.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Finally LeBron James has another all star caliber player along his side other than Mo Williams and Shaq. So if the Cavs lose again in the playoffs, we shouldn't be hearing the old song and dance about how LeBron James plays with a bunch of scrubs, and thats why the Cavs lost in the playoffs.

By the way good trade for the Cavs.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Question: Does this put added pressure on Miami ? The Cavs made a deal, Boston and Chicago made little deals. 

Isn't Wade looking around and asking" Where is our deal? "


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

LA68 said:


> If I were Z and this could be his last season, I wouldn't buy out a thing. I would take every cent and enjoy my retirement. When he goes, so does the gravy train.


He's already made 75 percent of his contract this year. If he gets a good buyout, and resigns with the Cavs for the max available (BAE?) he'd make the same, possibly more, with a chance to come back again next year if he wanted. And he wouldn't have to move or adjust to a new city or anything.

I think it would be shocking if Z didn't come back to the Cavs. The guy is Mister Cav. He bleeds wine and gold, and wants to win a championship for the city more than anything. You don't stick out the Ricky Davis and Darius Miles years with bad feet, if you don't really like the franchise you are with.

He may be the surest bet of anyone to ever be traded to return. Though the next 30 days he's going to have to act like he's entertaining other offers. I think Mark Cuban is just doing Dan Gilbert a solid by pretending to have interest in Z.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Finally LeBron James has another all star caliber player along his side other than Mo Williams and Shaq. So if the Cavs lose again in the playoffs, we shouldn't be hearing the old song and dance about how LeBron James plays with a bunch of scrubs, and thats why the Cavs lost in the playoffs.


It would be a huge shock if they lost. Now that they have Jamison they might have arguably the best team talentwise in the league. And on paper it looks like the perfect players for hte perfect roles.

What could hurt them though is, like anyone else, injuries. But if everyone stays healthy, this is a team that even the Lakers should fear.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

The Clips announcers act as if they get the best of the deal ! Now they are thinking they can get LeBron or Wade themselves ! 

All through the fourth the put up a graphic of LeBron,Wade, Amare, Bosh and Johnson as if its possible to acquire one. :funny:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

There was a time when Telfair and Lebron being on the same team would have been a big deal  Lebron must just remind Telfair of how far he's fallen.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Yeah...I think Z will be back soon 










Lebron will make sure of it.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I don't know why Z wouldn't be back. I assume he has a family in Cleveland...He must be pretty settled there after what must be close to a decade. He can just lay around the house and rest up. I'm not sure that you have to wait 30 days if you don't go back to your own team, so maybe there's a small incentive for him to sign somewhere else and get the veteran's minimum prorated for a month longer...Don't think that's worth the trouble of moving if you don't have to.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Z will be back. CLE can offer him the bi-annual exception, DAL only has the vet min. 

Assume other teams looking for bigs like DEN will target him also but it's basically a given that Z will want to come back and play for a chance to win a ring in CLE. No way Ferry deals him without having some level of comfort Z would be back.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Will Z suit up for the Wizards for a game or two? That would be really really weird. I can't imagine him in a Wizards jersey after all the things that have happened between the two teams.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The Wizards don't "HAVE" to waive him though. Has Grunfeld ever bought anyone out? I need to see this happen first.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HKF said:


> The Wizards don't "HAVE" to waive him though. Has Grunfeld ever bought anyone out? I need to see this happen first.


They would be stupid not to. If they don't wave him they won't be under the luxury tax, so they'll not only have to pay the rest of Z's salary in full, they'll also have to pay the luxury tax. As opposed to not getting the luxury tax, and getting money back from Z in the buyout. I think I read somewhere that the Wizards would make like 7 million dollars by waiving Z.

So I mean...they can keep him...but why? Is their hatred of the Cavs 7 million dollars worth? Doubtful since they just gave the Cavs Jamison for pretty much nothing.

I doubt Z even suits up for the Wizards.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

You people are crazy if you don't think Z will be back. The guy has spent his whole career in Cleveland and never won a championship. This may be his last shot. No way in hell would he rather just sit on his ***.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

If Washington wants to be evil about things they won't keep Z, but they will wait till after March 1st to release him so he won't be eligible for the playoffs. But that's assuming the Wizards are soulless monsters. Which I doubt their franchise needs even more bad PR.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

They can't just waive him. He has to accept a buyout.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

That's what I meant.
And Z actually makes money on this deal because he had a trade kicker, so between that and the buyout he's probably coming out ahead. Cavs pretty much did him about as right as you can.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

HKF said:


> The Wizards don't "HAVE" to waive him though. Has Grunfeld ever bought anyone out? I need to see this happen first.


Grunfeld has bought out Chucky Atkins back in the 2005-06 season.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> They would be stupid not to. If they don't wave him they won't be under the luxury tax, so they'll not only have to pay the rest of Z's salary in full, they'll also have to pay the luxury tax. As opposed to not getting the luxury tax, and getting money back from Z in the buyout. I think I read somewhere that the Wizards would make like 7 million dollars by waiving Z.
> 
> So I mean...they can keep him...but why? Is their hatred of the Cavs 7 million dollars worth? Doubtful since they just gave the Cavs Jamison for pretty much nothing.
> 
> I doubt Z even suits up for the Wizards.


Again, the Wizards are already under the luxury tax with the Butler and Jamison, especially since they didn't take back Brian Skinner. I still see the Wizards buying out Big Z but it would be pretty funny if they kept him on the Wizards.


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## eddymac (Jun 23, 2005)

Good deal by Cleveland they now have a bonafied 2nd option to go alongside LeBron.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Third you mean
*
Charley loves the deal though*



> There’s no doubt that by obtaining the services of Antawn Jamison in a three-team trade, the Cleveland Cavaliers have greatly increased their chances of winning the championship.
> FOX SPORTS POLL
> With Antawn Jamison, the Cavs ...
> 
> ...


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

Word out there is that the Wiz are talking to Miami and Utah about a possible 3 way trade, where Z could be involved...this could be bad for Cleveland, because Utah could use a backup C and may not buy Z out in case they get him.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

It would be more sad for Z than it would the Cavs. Z is only relevent for when the Cavs play the Lakers, other than that this is their frontcourt currently:

Shaq/Varejao/Jackson
Jamison/Hickson/Powe

That's on top of Lebron being able to play the 4 as well as Jawad Williams. So I mean...it's hard enough to get minutes for all of these guys, without Z coming in. Z not returning would just mean that Powe might get more playing time.

I would feel bad for Z because he's given so much for the franchise, he deserves to be there when the Cavs win the title. But if a team wants him, what can you do?

If the Jazz traded Boozer, wouldn't Z be their starting center?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Millsap would play 4, Okur would conceivably play 5.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Deadline is over, doubt thats happening. Z's going back to CLE .

Or is he?



> Wiz will still buyout Ilgauskas, source says, but they've created lot of leverage by getting under tax. He'll have to pay for his freedom.


 - Woj


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Michael Lee on Big Z:

Dom McGuire move officially put the Wizards under the luxury tax, source says. A Z buyout would just be gravy on "stale" mash potatoes.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

HKF said:


> How is this a perfect example? To date, what has Antwan Jamison done in his career that makes this some horrible thing? I mean he has pretty stats, but he has only been out of the first round once in his 12 year career and he was swept that year. This guy has barely played any meaningful basketball in his NBA career.


A 20 point scorer guy on a meidicore (sp?) team can be a 10-12 point scorer on a championship team.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

You know what, HKF brings up a good point. Jamison has minimal playoff experience, and for the most part he has a knack for disappearing in the clutch. Is this the guy Cleveland wants to hang their hat on the season after they lost because all the jumpshooters on the roster suddenly stopped making shots? Especially when Amare, he of multiple playoff runs, was an option? Who does Orlando or Atlanta have that can really contain Amare :laugh:...The Cavs would've had two of the top 5 biggest mismatches in the league.

As opposed to Jamison, just another jumpshooter. If Jamison wilts this postseason not taking JRich back with Amare is going to bite them in the ***, especially if Lebron leaves. In essence, Jason Richardson (and the 24 hours the Cavs didn't want to risk waiting for the Suns to decide) could change this franchise's entire history.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Amare has played in 36 playoff games in his career while Jamison has played in 31 playoff games. I wouldn't call Jamison anti-clutch, while you wouldn't want him to create a shot for others during the final seconds of a game, he is certainly capable of performing down the stretch.

If I was a Cavs fan, I would worry that Jamison is the worst possible defender that you could have at the power forward position. Too slow to cover quicker power forwards and too small to cover bigger power forwards. He doesn't block shots nor is he a flopper like Varejao. Rashard Lewis has routinely torched Jamison in Washington, and typically can't stay in front of perimeter players, so I'm unsure how he helps the Cavs in a matchup against the Magic. 

I would also characterize Jamison as streaky, there can periods where he makes every shot, but there will be periods where he goes cold. He takes ill advised shots outside the paint early in the shot clock. Sure they are nice when they go in, but when they don't they can be momentum killer. 

Let's not forget that Jamison is also playing with a separated shoulder. While it hasn't hurt him statistically early on in the season he has struggled as of late. His field goal percentage for the last 6 games has been at around 30%. His 3 point percentage has been under 20% in that same period. Maybe he's just going through a rough stretch and playing in a smaller role will allow Jamison to perform more efficiently. And he's due $28 million over the next two season so it made sense why the Wizards wanted to dump him since they aren't going to be competitive anytime soon.

And in Washington, Jamison was pretty stubborn about starting, I believe it was one of the bigger reasons that he wanted out in Dallas. I have to think he will eventually fall in line with guys like LeBron and Shaq who would calm him down


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

f22egl said:


> Amare has played in 36 playoff games in his career while Jamison has played in 31 playoff games. I wouldn't call Jamison anti-clutch, while you wouldn't want him to create a shot for others during the final seconds of a game, he is certainly capable of performing down the stretch.
> 
> If I was a Cavs fan, I would worry that Jamison is the worst possible defender that you could have at the power forward position. Too slow to cover quicker power forwards and too small to cover bigger power forwards. He doesn't block shots nor is he a flopper like Varejao. Rashard Lewis has routinely torched Jamison in Washington, and typically can't stay in front of perimeter players, so I'm unsure how he helps the Cavs in a matchup against the Magic.
> 
> ...


Very informative post.

:cheers:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I think he'll still start.

And Jamison may have slightly less playoff games than Amare, but let's be real. The Suns have been to the WCFs, and they played in the West.

The Wizards have only been out of the first round once.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

I'm sure there are Cavaliers who remember being torched by Jamison for 30 ppg in the playoffs. Yes, he has limited postseason experience compared to some players, but 31 games is plenty to know what it's like and how to prepare. The guy is a consummate pro and badly wants to win...he'll do what he needs to do to fit in with Cleveland's system. 

Hopefully he drinks enough of Mike Brown's kool-aid to improve as a defender. That's the thing to watch.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The thing is Jamison to me is a fake all-star and he's without a position. I just don't believe that Jamison makes them favorites over the Lakers, the way Amare would have.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

I don't disagree. But Jamison has some strengths, and neither is an all-world defender.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Against the Lakers the Cavs are closing with Shaq and Varejao anyway. Jamison eases the pressure to play Amare down the stretch of games. Against Artest they can even play Jamison at SF and force Kobe into a difficult matchup. I think the Lakers better hope Cleveland doesn't make it out of the East because Shaq will be super motivated in that series and the Laker bigs are not built for combat.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I'm sure the Cavs are content in Jamison's playoff experience given that we've played the Wizards in the playoffs so many goddamn times. Plus he was like the only one of them that showed up last year.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

The funny thing is that if you took Amare out of the equation (as in if the Cavs never had a shot at Amare) then everyone would be talking about what an awesome deal this was for the Cavs. But somehow getting a fantastic player like Jamison for a draft pick just isn't that good of a deal because they may have had a chance at Amare.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Hibachi! said:


> The funny thing is that if you took Amare out of the equation (as in if the Cavs never had a shot at Amare) then everyone would be talking about what an awesome deal this was for the Cavs. But somehow getting a fantastic player like Jamison for a draft pick just isn't that good of a deal because they may have had a chance at Amare.


I don't know if the Cavs really ever had a chance at Amare. They offered up Z, Hickson, and a first round pick and the Suns refused. That's the best offer you could expect Cleveland to make. Considering that Jamison has been putting up the same numbers(on lower percentages, but also without Nash to help him) as Amare, neither defends well, Jamison is a better chemistry guy, and Hickson is putting up the same numbers as Al Jefferson at that age, I'm of the opinion that Jamison was the better deal.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Jamison is a good player, dont know about fantastic. Classy guy though, UNC player too, one of my fav players, just not sure if he puts the Cavs over the top.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Hibachi! said:


> The funny thing is that if you took Amare out of the equation (as in if the Cavs never had a shot at Amare) then everyone would be talking about what an awesome deal this was for the Cavs. But somehow getting a fantastic player like Jamison for a draft pick just isn't that good of a deal because they may have had a chance at Amare.


I also don't get this...

People were saying they had a brilliant chance at the title before this, and now they'd been made a hell of a lot stronger, and we don't know if they've got a chance now? Come on.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Great opening game for him last night

26.5 mins, 0-12, 0-4 3pt, 7 REB, 5 BA's, 2 points.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

You guys do realize that its one game without little to no practice. He looked lost out there. Dont be shocked if he goes off against Orlando tomorrow.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

OneBadLT123 said:


> Great opening game for him last night
> 
> 26.5 mins, 0-12, 0-4 3pt, 7 REB, 5 BA's, 2 points.


Hey, he was 100% from the free-throw line though.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

HB said:


> You guys do realize that its one game without little to no practice. He looked lost out there. Dont be shocked if he goes off against Orlando tomorrow.


I know. I just wanted to point out the 0-12. Because come on, you can at least make one shot... lol


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

HB said:


> You guys do realize that its one game without little to no practice. He looked lost out there. Dont be shocked if he goes off against Orlando tomorrow.


I won't. Especially if the epic Ryan Anderson is guarding him.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol you do realize that Rashard Lewis is the Magic' starting forward right? Actually come to think of it if SVG was smart he'd play Bass tomorrow. Jamison doesnt like to bang with physical forwards.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Jamel Irief said:


> I won't. Especially if the epic Ryan Anderson is guarding him.


:laugh:


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

HB said:


> Lol you do realize that Rashard Lewis is the Magic' starting forward right? Actually come to think of it if SVG was smart he'd play Bass tomorrow. Jamison doesnt like to bang with physical forwards.


And what's the likelihood of that, seeing as he hasn't played him much all year?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

40% SVG plays hima against physical frontcourts


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

HB said:


> Lol you do realize that Rashard Lewis is the Magic' starting forward right? Actually come to think of it if SVG was smart he'd play Bass tomorrow. Jamison doesnt like to bang with physical forwards.


I didn't realize that no. All sorts of things I am learning in this thread!

- Jamison was playing in his first game as a Cav
- Rashard Lewis starts for the Magic

You are like a fountain of knowledge blessing me!


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

lol you fail at humor


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

> Friday was the night for some big-name players who’d been dealt at the NBA trading deadline to debut with their new teams. And none of them will have a more direct impact on the 2010 championship race than Antawn Jamison … The moment Jamison checked into Cavs/Bobcats in the first quarter, LeBron got a steal and looked off his new teammate on the break, barreling through two defenders for a statement dunk instead. (Statement: This is my show, homie.) Jamison responded by jacking up two shots the next two times he touched the ball — missing a three and getting a layup blocked — and then it all went downhill from there. Jamison finished 0-for-12 with 2 points and 7 boards, and generally carried himself like an overwhelmed rookie as the Cavs lost decisively. Worse than missing shots were the defensive lapses, as he lost track of his man for easy buckets and got smashed on once or twice … Not sure if it was just leftover frustration from the Denver loss, annoyance with Jamison’s mistakes, or if they’re somehow mad at Jamison because he helped usher Big Z’s departure, but it felt like the rest of the Cavs don’t really like the new guy. LeBron (22 pts, 9 asts, 4 stls), Mo Williams and Shaq often ignored Jamison when he was wide open. One time LeBron appeared to hurt his ankle, and when Jamison was the first guy to run over and offer a hand, LeBron waved him off. Then another time, Delonte West threw a bad pass that Jamison couldn’t catch, and Delonte stared at Jamison like he was covered in pigeon poop


http://dimemag.com/2010/02/premiere-night-new-faces-debut-in-nba-trade-deadline-fallout/


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

HB said:


> lol you fail at humor


Then you apparently fail at knowing what lol means.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

f22egl said:


> http://dimemag.com/2010/02/premiere-night-new-faces-debut-in-nba-trade-deadline-fallout/


wow, that's drastic.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

f22egl said:


> http://dimemag.com/2010/02/premiere-night-new-faces-debut-in-nba-trade-deadline-fallout/


LeBron and the Wizards players have never really gotten on, no? Give it time and they'll be fine. It may even be an overreaction.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

People need to stop trying to spin it in Jamison's favor. FOH with that nonsense. This guy went 0-12 and was blocked 5 times. This ain't Washington no more, mother****er, pass the damn ball.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

HKF said:


> People need to stop trying to spin it in Jamison's favor. FOH with that nonsense. This guy went 0-12 and was blocked 5 times. This ain't Washington no more, mother****er, pass the damn ball.


lol. I like how he gets block 5 times. He needs to find when he can be assertive and he has to pass the damn ball.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Lo] at people talking **** about Jamison. What a joke. This guy is a classy hard working player with a wide skillset. He will make the Cavs better no doubt about it.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

^ rofl. Dude sucks. He's a glorified chucker on the level of Shareef Abdur-Rahim.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Cap said:


> ^ rofl. Dude sucks. He's a glorified chucker on the level of Shareef Abdur-Rahim.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Jamison will be the kiss of death to the Cavs this season. Because you know everyone blames somebody other than LeBron James when the Cavs fail in the playoffs. This post season the fall guy will be Antwan Jamison. No wonder why no high level players ever actually want to play with LeBron James. If you don't win championships your deemed a failure and no show.

Guys like Amare are smart, they rather carve out their own legacy being the man, versus playing a part of LBJ's life support to win a championship.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Ummm Amare had no choice in who he plays for


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

It is way to early to call this marriage a bust.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

The glorified chucker part is absolute crap though. He's not Amare but this guy is sure as heck not SAR


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

HB said:


> Ummm Amare had no choice in who he plays for


He is entitled to his opinion though. One several marquee players subscribe to as well. Which is when Amare was asked where he would prefer to play Miami or Cleveland, he choose Miami. He said last season, and this season numerous times he's not to eager on playing in Cleveland. You don't see many big time players calling to play with the Cavs and James for a reason. It's championships or career tarnish. For all of LeBrons talents, he's not the guy everyone wants to play with. And I don't blame them.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Sit y'all a**es down and watch the season unfold. A dude can't have one game either way before people overreact.


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

I am so happy Cleveland has Mike Brown and Ferry...


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Babir said:


> I am so happy Cleveland has Mike Brown and Ferry...


Danny Ferry is the worst human being ever. Mike Brown is a good coach, but not a great one. And it has less to do with the x's and o's and more to do with managing players. Essentially its the LBJ show in Cleveland, that's who's really in control, not Mike Brown.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Hmmm...


> WojYahooNBA Mark Heisler of LA Times is reporting that NBA has informed other teams that it won't let Z return to Cavs after a buyout.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Organized Chaos said:


> Hmmm...


If that's right then that's a travesty. Gives the appearance that Stern is favoring L.A. You can't change the rules in the middle of the game, and this wasn't a problem when the Spurs did it 500 times.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

That seems unlikely to me since it would clearly be a case of changing the rules in the middle of the game. If this was the case then the League would have had to have informed everyone beforehand. Cleveland probably doesn't make this trade if they know they can't keep Z and they probably would have done something else instead. Perhaps the LA Times is engaging in wishful thinking.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

LA Times is trying to bate someone on the Cavs or with Z to fight this and let something slip, like Stackhouse did. LA Times just trying to help the Lakers because Z destroys them. Shady shady business.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jamison looked a lot better today by the by. The Magic can't really guard him apparently. That's good. I like how our team looks, we just need time to sort everything out and get everyone back on the same page. I'm predicting right now we may lose 2 of the next 3.

Should have a good March though once everyone gets re-settled. Jamison makes us ridiculous.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

If SVG used Bass more, he could bother Jamison. Jamisons' a really good player though, when he's on, no one can stop him.

I hope Z doesnt return to the Cavs by the way.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HB said:


> I hope Z doesnt return to the Cavs by the way.


I hope he does. It would be really sad if he couldn't finish his career with the Cavs. He's Mr. Cavalier.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

If Z doesn't return, the Cavs aren't winning. Shaq can't play more than 25 minutes.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Hurray to that!

Why's that a bad thing?


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Hope this is true. Jamison is good but I think CLE becomes alot tougher if they get Z back, imo. :gopray:


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

They do need to close that loophole, but they can't do it now. Has to be prior to the season. Though if they did it I wouldn't be mad.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

http://www.nbpa.org/sites/default/files/ARTICLE XIII.pdf

^^Interesting stuff in there about the circumvention rules in the CBA... NBA might have a case here regarding Z going back to CLE...


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Hawks want Z*

I dont think they have a shot, but they do need him more than the Cavs. Their big man rotation is woeful and if they face the Magic, Dwight is going to eat them up.


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## big furb (Feb 24, 2006)

HB said:


> *Hawks want Z*
> 
> I dont think they have a shot, but they do need him more than the Cavs. Their big man rotation is woeful and if they face the Magic, Dwight is going to eat them up.


Dwight would eat them up even if they got Z (what he did to z last year in the playoffs was downright inhumane)


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Babir said:


> I am so happy Cleveland has Mike Brown and Ferry...


 :bluesbros:


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Blue Magic said:


> http://www.nbpa.org/sites/default/files/ARTICLE XIII.pdf
> 
> ^^Interesting stuff in there about the circumvention rules in the CBA... NBA might have a case here regarding Z going back to CLE...


They don't have a case at all. If the NBA wants to change the rules then it needs to be done before the season starts, not mid-stream. I can't see any owners wanting the rule changed as too many title contenders benefit and the non-contenders don't benefit at all. Because the sort of marginal vet roleplayers that change teams this way don't turn first round playoff fodder into contenders.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Z is coming back to Cleveland. Anything else is just his people trying to make it seem like that wasn't what was going to happen so he doesn't get Stackhoused. but the clues are already there. Z's family is in cleveland and his agent has already said "z's a family man, and at the end of the day it's not going to be about money, it's going to be doing right by his family". Read also: Z coming back to Cleveland.

The guy is Mr. Cavalier. He's even paying over odds just to get his buyout and hurry up and return to the team. Shame people get so wound up about this with a player like this. Would anyone really be happy to see a lifelong Cav like Z not be able to return to his team to win the championship ring? After all that he's been through in Cleveland, the guy deserves to be able to be there during the good times.

Z used to play with Darius Miles and Ricky Davis. He deserves a little leaway!


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

I could see Z leaving if the Hawks offer him the MLE. But that's unlikely.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

futuristxen said:


> Z is coming back to Cleveland. Anything else is just his people trying to make it seem like that wasn't what was going to happen so he doesn't get Stackhoused. but the clues are already there. Z's family is in cleveland and his agent has already said "z's a family man, and at the end of the day it's not going to be about money, it's going to be doing right by his family". Read also: Z coming back to Cleveland.
> 
> The guy is Mr. Cavalier. He's even paying over odds just to get his buyout and hurry up and return to the team. Shame people get so wound up about this with a player like this. Would anyone really be happy to see a lifelong Cav like Z not be able to return to his team to win the championship ring? After all that he's been through in Cleveland, the guy deserves to be able to be there during the good times.
> 
> Z used to play with Darius Miles and Ricky Davis. He deserves a little leaway!


True, as much as I hate to see Cleveland get him back and get a good player like this he deserves it if anyone. That's 6 more fouls to use on Dwight, and anothyer big body to relieve Shaq, so Cleveland is gonna be hella tough to beat now...


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

IF the Wizards release him before the playoff deadline then Z will return to the Cavs. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Now it's up to the Wizards to follow suit.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Z is coming back to Cleveland. Anything else is just his people trying to make it seem like that wasn't what was going to happen so he doesn't get Stackhoused. but the clues are already there. Z's family is in cleveland and his agent has already said "z's a family man, and at the end of the day it's not going to be about money, it's going to be doing right by his family". Read also: Z coming back to Cleveland.
> 
> The guy is Mr. Cavalier. He's even paying over odds just to get his buyout and hurry up and return to the team. Shame people get so wound up about this with a player like this. Would anyone really be happy to see a lifelong Cav like Z not be able to return to his team to win the championship ring? After all that he's been through in Cleveland, the guy deserves to be able to be there during the good times.
> 
> Z used to play with Darius Miles and Ricky Davis. He deserves a little leaway!


The Cavs were the ones that traded Z! You make it seem like everyone else but them is trying to shaft him. The Wizards are under no obligations to just outright waive a player because they feel for his family.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dont know where they are going to get enough minutes for all their bigs. In trying to match up with Orlando, they've tinkered with their chemistry.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jamel Irief said:


> The Cavs were the ones that traded Z! You make it seem like everyone else but them is trying to shaft him. The Wizards are under no obligations to just outright waive a player because they feel for his family.


That's kinda how I feel, it's not about anyone tryna shaft Big Z it's about the Cavs essentially getting a free player. But it's a loophole in the system, and the only reason Washington has to buy him out is if Z practically walks away for free... Assuming he does that, i mean what more can you do? 

If the guy wants to give up millions just to be with CLE and is forcing a buyout like this, I guess you gotta do it... Now if Z's not willing to give up _all_ or a _majority_ of his money, if im Wash I probly dont move him cause I have no reason too, and he could have a good influence on my young bigs if nothin else.. Washington is really in a good position where the money doesn't matter to them, so it's all about what Z can do for them @ this point and how much he's willing to give up for his freedom.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

There's no issue with minutes. Shaq and Z are both incapable of maintaining effectiveness if you play them starter's minute. I don't remember the last time Z played more than around 30 minutes a game, his effectiveness is drastically reduced when he is overtaxed. Shaq is 37 or whatever. The two of them are going to split the center minutes more or less evenly. You'd have a real issue if you didn't have both of them though. Neither of them would be very good if you had to play them a lot.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Blue Magic said:


> That's kinda how I feel, it's not about anyone tryna shaft Big Z it's about the Cavs essentially getting a free player. But it's a loophole in the system, and the only reason Washington has to buy him out is if Z practically walks away for free... Assuming he does that, i mean what more can you do?
> 
> If the guy wants to give up millions just to be with CLE and is forcing a buyout like this, I guess you gotta do it... Now if Z's not willing to give up _all_ or a _majority_ of his money, if im Wash I probly dont move him cause I have no reason too, and he could have a good influence on my young bigs if nothin else.. Washington is really in a good position where the money doesn't matter to them, so it's all about what Z can do for them @ this point and how much he's willing to give up for his freedom.


Bingo. Z has a decision to make, does he want the 7 million or so he is owed while being away from his family two months (seems more ludicrous that his family is an issue when it's only two months) or does he want to be back in Ohio and have a chance at a ring?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Ilgauskas won't give up all the money. How does buyout mean give away? The Wizards will pay Ilgauskas less than he's owed, but not a great deal. When the blazers bought out Steve Francis he got every penny they owed him. In this case the Wizards probably save more or less what Ilgauskas will get from his next team. It'll probably be around a million they'll save or whatever Cleveland has an exception to give him.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Diable said:


> Ilgauskas won't give up all the money. How does buyout mean give away? The Wizards will pay Ilgauskas less than he's owed, but not a great deal. When the blazers bought out Steve Francis he got every penny they owed him. In this case the Wizards probably save more or less what Ilgauskas will get from his next team. It'll probably be around a million they'll save or whatever Cleveland has an exception to give him.


Difference is the Blazers wanted to buyout Francis, Francis wasn't initiating the buyout... If a player is gonna demand a buyout like this, they're not just gonna walk away w/o paying a price, especially when a team has no financial incentive to move you. Washington is already under the cap and has saved 10's of millions already by dumping Jamison and Butler's and Stevenson and Haywoods contracts, it's not like a mere 1 or 2 million in payroll is gonna make them let a player just walk away... I think Z is gonna have to give up alot of money, im thinking around 3-4 million or so depending on whats left on his contract, to be released... Cavs really ****ted on him in that sense, but it's a business.. If that's where his heart is tho and where he wants to be right now, there's nothing you can do if he's giving that amount of money


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Diable said:


> There's no issue with minutes. Shaq and Z are both incapable of maintaining effectiveness if you play them starter's minute. I don't remember the last time Z played more than around 30 minutes a game, his effectiveness is drastically reduced when he is overtaxed. Shaq is 37 or whatever. The two of them are going to split the center minutes more or less evenly. You'd have a real issue if you didn't have both of them though. Neither of them would be very good if you had to play them a lot.


This. Shaq is already starting to see his minutes inch up with Z gone over the 30 min territory. 

Z is needed to keep Shaq fresh, and as Blue Magic mentioned, put some fouls on Dwight. Z also did a nice job defensively on Gasol.


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## MojoPin (Oct 10, 2008)

futuristxen said:


> Z is coming back to Cleveland. Anything else is just his people trying to make it seem like that wasn't what was going to happen so he doesn't get Stackhoused. but the clues are already there. Z's family is in cleveland and his agent has already said "z's a family man, and at the end of the day it's not going to be about money, it's going to be doing right by his family". Read also: Z coming back to Cleveland.
> 
> The guy is Mr. Cavalier. He's even paying over odds just to get his buyout and hurry up and return to the team. Shame people get so wound up about this with a player like this. *Would anyone really be happy to see a lifelong Cav like Z not be able to return to his team to win the championship ring? After all that he's been through in Cleveland, the guy deserves to be able to be there during the good times.*
> Z used to play with Darius Miles and Ricky Davis. He deserves a little leaway!



Yes, I would be happy. That's how real business works. There isn't, nor should there be a sympathy clause in his contract. This practice is despicable, horrible for the game, and I can't wait until it's banned.

I guess the Cavs have already won the championship huh? You talk as if the season is already over.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

Blue Magic said:


> That's kinda how I feel, it's not about anyone tryna shaft Big Z it's about the Cavs essentially getting a free player. But it's a loophole in the system, and the only reason Washington has to buy him out is if Z practically walks away for free... Assuming he does that, i mean what more can you do?
> 
> If the guy wants to give up millions just to be with CLE and is forcing a buyout like this, I guess you gotta do it... Now if Z's not willing to give up _all_ or a _majority_ of his money, if im Wash I probly dont move him cause I have no reason too, and he could have a good influence on my young bigs if nothin else.. Washington is really in a good position where the money doesn't matter to them, so it's all about what Z can do for them @ this point and how much he's willing to give up for his freedom.


Pretty much agreed on all counts. If Z agree to walks away from all money is owed for rest of season, Wiz should agree. If he doesn't, then Wiz should keep him.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

I'd feel bad for Z, but if I was a fan of LA/Orlando/Denver/whoever else is contending, I'm very happy if Z's not allowed to return to Cleveland. It's a ridiculous loophole and if it isn't clamped down on, I'd be very surprised.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

> Pretty much agreed on all counts. If Z agree to walks away from all money is owed for rest of season, Wiz should agree. If he doesn't, then Wiz should keep him.


 So the Wiz should aim to save nothing instead of saving something? That makes a great deal of sense...How?


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Diable said:


> So the Wiz should aim to save nothing instead of saving something? That makes a great deal of sense...How?


What? Where in my post did I mention the Wizards? Why would they make this trade if they can't buy-out Z and save money? They wouldn't, which was my point.

edit: I see you quoted the wrong post or something?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

We haven't even reached the postseason and the Laker fans are already doing their best Pau Gasol imitations.



FX™;6211060 said:


> What? Where in my post did I mention the Wizards? Why would they make this trade if they can't buy-out Z and save money? They wouldn't, which was my point.
> 
> edit: I see you quoted the wrong post or something?


Oh, he quoted the right post...


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Diable said:


> So the Wiz should aim to save nothing instead of saving something? That makes a great deal of sense...How?


They've already save 28mil by dumping Jamison... They've saved 10's of millions more by dumping Butler, Stevenson, and McGuire... I really dont think the buyout money is why they traded for Z, especially if it is only gonna be 1-2 mil like you speculate... The 28 mil on Jamisons deal was the real money saver, and at this point they can leverage Z for as much money as they want. Why settle for 1-2mil in buyout, when you have 100% leverage in the situation and can get more?? 

Z is not a bad player, it's not as if he is a liability to the Wizards if they were to keep him on the roster. He's an asset, and they're doing him a favor letting him go to another team... In this case it makes the most sense to try and maximize gains.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Blue Magic said:


> They've already save 28mil by dumping Jamison...


Not this year they didn't. They're still on the hook for luxury tax payments, so every dollar they shave off of Ilgauskas' deal is two dollars saved.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

E.H. Munro said:


> Not this year they didn't. They're still on the hook for luxury tax payments, so every dollar they shave off of Ilgauskas' deal is two dollars saved.


I thought I read that they traded McGuire to get under the cap?? I dont they're in luxury, but it's hard to know what they're paying with the whole Gilbert/Crittenton fiasco, honestly....


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Like I thought, Z is handcuffed...



> A league source indicated Tuesday that the Wizards want savings *far in excess of the approximately $590,000 "trade kicker"* Ilgauskas is due after being traded last week from Cleveland to Washington as part of a three-team deal that sent Antawn Jamison to the Cavaliers. While no specific dollar amounts have been disclosed, the source indicated Washington was going to be firm in holding out for the most money possible -- likely $1 million or more -- from Ilgauskas.
> 
> *The Wizards no longer are under the pressure of having to work out a buyout with Ilgauskas in order to get under the $69.9 million luxury tax threshhold.* Washington got under by trading forward Dominic McGuire to Sacramento last Thursday for a second-round pick.
> 
> http://www.nba.com/2010/news/02/23/ilgauskas/?ls=iref:nbahpt2


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

That isn't a big deal. Cleveland has the biannual exception so Ilgauskas isn't going to lose anything. That's exactly what would be expected. While it's illegal to make side deals everyone probably knows that the Wizards have agreed to buy out Ilgauskas. If they screw over Cleveland on this noone is going to trust them the next time they want to deal. It's obvious that the Magic fans would like for the Wizards to screw over Cleveland, but it's not going to happen. There are 30 GM jobs in the NBA, everyone knows who they can trust and if you doublecross Cleveland you'll be screwing yourself when you need someone to wink and nod for you. The Wizards are going to make the best deal they can make, that's obvious. They are going to make a deal and it's just a matter of numbers. If Ilgauskas refused their demand they'd make another one until he agreed.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Blue Magic said:


> Like I thought, Z is handcuffed...


Handcuffed? The Cavs have the Bi-Annual left, which works out to $750k, so Z leaving a million behind isn't a big deal.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

If I'm not mistaken the Wizards would not owe Ilgauskas whatever Cleveland paid Ilgauskas, so they'd get whatever the buyout was and then whatever Cleveland paid Ilgauskas would be deducted from his contract. If that's the case then they'll save approximately 2 million by buying him out.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Washington has little reason _not_ to buy-out Z's contract. He doesn't fit into their long-term plans at all, and does little to nothing for them over the course of this season. Developing Andray Blatche and seeing what they can get out of JaVale McGee by giving them as much playing time as possible are frontcourt priorities #1 and #2, and figuring out if James Singleton is worth bringing back on a small contract as an enforcer/banger is a distant #3. Z isn't going to become a cancer in the Wizards locker room, but keeping a depressed 34-year-old who won't be playing much for you and won't be back next year on the roster makes zero sense. It's much, much, much more sensible to buy him out and use the savings to sign a top D-league center for the rest of the year as an extended try-out. 

I understand trying to maximize the savings in a buy-out, but keep in mind that other players take notice of these things and Z is a respected player around the league. Gaining a reputation as a team that treats players poorly in an effort to save every last penny isn't a smart move right before going into a rebuilding summer with $20+ million in cap room. Save what you can, but reach the buyout in a timely and respectful fashion, and above all don't look like jerks in the process.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Actually I think Z going back to Cleveland is in the Magic's best interest. Right now, they have taken away minutes from Varejao and Hickson to accommodate Jamison, when Z comes back, they'll have to figure out minutes for all those guys. Jamison doesnt play defense, those other 3 guys do.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MojoPin said:


> Yes, I would be happy. That's how real business works.


What real business? Since when are you not allowed to sign with an employer who has just fired you? If this was like real business Z would be able to come back to work tomorrow. 

Plus if this was like real business the Cavs wouldn't have traded for Jamison, they would have just bought him.

This is an instance where the "that's how real business works" arguement doesn't work.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HB said:


> Actually I think Z going back to Cleveland is in the Magic's best interest. Right now, they have taken away minutes from Varejao and Hickson to accommodate Jamison, when Z comes back, they'll have to figure out minutes for all those guys. Jamison doesnt play defense, those other 3 guys do.


Hickson and Jamison are pretty much a wash defensively. Once Z comes back it helps the Cavs because Z would be the backup center, not Varejao. Which allows Varejao to do what he does best, which is play the 4.

Shaq/Z
Jamison/Varejao

I doubt Hickson will be playing much for the Cavs in the playoffs. Probably just situationally. Which I think is fine. He's only in his second year. He's one for the future, and Jamison and Varejao are both better than him right now.

Rashard Lewis has to guard Jamison, he never guarded Hickson. And the truth is, he can't.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Zydrunas Ilgauskas' agent says buyout terms have been reached with Washington Wizards
By Brian Windhorst, The Plain Dealer
February 24, 2010, 7:43PM
UPDATED: 11:42 p.m.

BOSTON -- Zydrunas Ilgauskas isn't a Cavalier, but he's soon no longer going to be a Washington Wizard.
The Wizards and Ilgauskas agreed to terms on a buyout of his contract Wednesday night and all that is left to be done is paperwork to be finalized.

"We're very close," Herb Rudoy, Ilgauskas' agent, said via e-mail. "I hope to finish it up (Thursday) morning."

A source said Ilgauskas got the deal done by agreeing to give back around $1.3 million to the Wizards from his $11.5 million salary. He will be able to recoup that by signing with another team if he so chooses.

Once the buyout becomes official, the Wizards will put the veteran center on waivers. He will clear waivers 48 hours later because no team has enough salary cap space to claim his contract. He would then become an unrestricted free agent.

It is expected Ilgauskas will listen to offers from a handful of teams, with the Dallas Mavericks and Denver Nuggets expected to be the most vigorous contenders. Of course, the Cavs will be involved. All three teams have their $1.99 million bi-annual exception to offer and can offer a $1.3 million veteran's minimum contract.

Ilgauskas, who is widely expected to return to Cleveland, can sign with any team but the Cavs as soon as he clears waivers. If he chooses to re-sign in Cleveland, he would have to wait under March 21 under NBA rules.

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/02/ilgauskas_agent_says_buyout_is.html


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Well Hickson at least tries to defend, and just as Shard cant guard Jamison, though he puts more effort on D than Jamison, the same can be said the other way round. Jamison has to run around chasing Lewis, the guy can't be left alone.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

HKF said:


> Well, I have yet to see Jamison do anything meaningful in the playoffs so I am not overly impressed by this. Amare would have taken the Cavs to the title with Lebron at the helm. As it stands Jamison still doesn't give them length to combat the Lakers.


This dude did nothing all playoffs. Way to be another faux all-star.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

Tonight's game made it really clear to me. Lebron needs another player with some confidence. You can look at the team and say they need an outside shooter, more rebounding, a low post scorer, it doesn't really matter. What they really need(ed) is a player that wants the ball when lebron is triple teamed. Amare would have been a good fit. 

Lebron is the best player of all time in the open court. A great player off the dribble from the perimeter. But he isn't the greatest half court scorer. When he tried to back people down like kobe does he didn't look that good.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

He had a good series against the Bulls but was nowhere to be found against the Celtics.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> You know what, HKF brings up a good point. Jamison has minimal playoff experience, and for the most part he has a knack for disappearing in the clutch. Is this the guy Cleveland wants to hang their hat on the season after they lost because all the jumpshooters on the roster suddenly stopped making shots? Especially when Amare, he of multiple playoff runs, was an option? Who does Orlando or Atlanta have that can really contain Amare :laugh:...The Cavs would've had two of the top 5 biggest mismatches in the league.
> 
> As opposed to Jamison, just another jumpshooter. If Jamison wilts this postseason not taking JRich back with Amare is going to bite them in the ***, especially if Lebron leaves. In essence, Jason Richardson (and the 24 hours the Cavs didn't want to risk waiting for the Suns to decide) could change this franchise's entire history.


...


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I don't think the Cavs ever had a legitimate chance to get Stoudamire. I really don't think that Kerr was going to do any deal that was offered for Amare. Hickson is a very good player so long as you've got Lebron drawing his man and spoonfeeding him. He's not going to get you Amare. Only way Stoudamire would have been traded for that sort of bargain was if he'd come out and said he didn't want to play for PHX. Instead he seems to like playing for Gentry.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Jamison finally beat the Cavs!


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> hahahahahahahahahaha
> 
> Thank you Washington


No thank you


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