# Why does everyone hate kobe?



## beautifulkobe

What did he do seriously.I dont get it.Every magazine or paper and sports critic and coaches compare him to jordan and they say Jordan passed the torch to him.Hes won already 3 titles at 23.Can take over games whenever he wants.Hes an amazing player who is the youngest player to win three titles in the nba.He scored more ponits in highschool then Wilt Chamberlain.Hes becoming one of the greatest but yet noone gives him any credit for anything.
Everyone thinks hes overrated.Geez hes worked so hard to get here and deserves evry bit if success hes had.
hes the only player in teh nba right now who could take over 4th quarters like if the team is down like 10 points.
Hes an amzing talented player but noone gives him any respect.

Seriously whats so bad about kobe?

Obviously I know all the other fans of other teams hate him cause they want him on their team and they are jealous that we have him.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

The thing they hate most about him is that he wins...but I have heard many people say he is a "wannabe-arrogant-cocky..etc"


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## Sean

jealousy, envy, hateritis....

Jordan had his "critics" too. I'll never understand these types of people.


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## Jamel Irief

Like you said every magazine, analyst (you know people that KNOW basketball) like him and fans of teams that he continues to beat hate him. Not that hard to figure it out.


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## Chops

What is a Kobe hater? Am I a Kobe hater if I don't think he is a top 5 player?


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## DP

Haters, as I understand it, are the ones who show "clutch posting" ability every time Kobe misses a potential gamewinner (even Mike did that at least half the time he attempted), has an occasional bad game or gets into altercation like he did with Reggie last year but the same posters fail to show up to give him props every time Kobe hits a gamewinner, has a great game or does something amazing on and off court. 

Now tell me if you're a Kobe hater.


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## Chops

No, I just don't think he is a top 5 player....


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## BizzyRipsta

it's definitely not jealousy or envy for me. i'm not all that fond of kobe, but i'm not jealous. i have jason kidd on my team.


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## DP

That's fine. That's <b>your</b> opinion, an <b>uncommon</b> one and I can respect that. We will see if you have that *clutch posting* ability in you next year, won't we ?


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## Chops

I guess so, but I was here to gloat when Kobe missed a clutch shot in Game 5 and I have been here to defend the Kings all offseason, but at the same time I give credit where credit is due....


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## [email protected]

> Originally posted by *KC *
> I guess so, but I was here to gloat when Kobe missed a clutch shot in Game 5 and I have been here to defend the Kings all offseason, but at the same time I give credit where credit is due....


I wouldn't necessarily say that, but your dedication is admirable


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## Prico

KC what players do you rank higher than Kobe?


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## hOnDo

> Originally posted by *KC *
> I guess so, but I was here to gloat when Kobe missed a clutch shot in Game 5 and I have been here to defend the Kings all offseason, but at the same time I give credit where credit is due....



Kobe is definately Top 5 material, and I'm pretty sure that Jordan missed an important shot somewhere in his career.

I think that KC is just a Laker hater because he is all over bashing Shaq and Kobe and the Lakers.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by *Prico *
> KC what players do you rank higher than Kobe?


Tracy McGrady
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd
Vince Carter
Shaquille O'Neal

All of these players are higher IMO.....


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## Chops

> Originally posted by *hOnDo *
> 
> 
> 
> Kobe is definately Top 5 material, and I'm pretty sure that Jordan missed an important shot somewhere in his career.
> 
> I think that KC is just a Laker hater because he is all over bashing Shaq and Kobe and the Lakers.


Please, you are not a psychiatrist and you don't even know me. Don't try and analyse why I am what I am or why I think the way I think....


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## hOnDo

> Originally posted by *KC *
> 
> 
> Please, you are not a psychiatrist and you don't even know me. Don't try and analyse why I am what I am or why I think the way I think....


HAHA i dont have to try, I've seen your posts in a bunch of threads and they have all been negative towards the lakers and kobe & shaq.


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## hOnDo

> Originally posted by *KC *
> 
> 
> Tracy McGrady
> Tim Duncan
> Kevin Garnett
> Jason Kidd
> Vince Carter
> Shaquille O'Neal
> 
> All of these players are higher IMO.....



What does Vince do better than Kobe?? And please dont use the stupid excuse that "kobe and shaq, vince does it alone".


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## Prico

No Kings on your list KC

All the players on your list are excellent but I'll stick with Kobe & Shaq & that is my opinion.

Kobe is a very instrumental piece to the Lakers puzzle, he has three world championships in which he has played a vital part.

anyone who is ever seen Kobe play knows he is the toughest player with the chips on the table.

Kobe has intangibles which go beyond just skill, he has heart, he has the killer instinct and he has a competitive drive that keeps him motivated.

I don't care what other people think of Kobe, I think Kobe is an absolutely fantastic player and the most exciting player to watch game in an game out.


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## beautifulkobe

I totally agree with you prico.Tracy,vince etc dont have half the talen or skill that kobe does.
I dont see tracy or vince ever being compared to mj or getting as much praise and attention as Kobe.


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## Chops

> No Kings on your list KC
> 
> All the players on your list are excellent but I'll stick with Kobe & Shaq & that is my opinion.
> 
> Kobe is a very instrumental piece to the Lakers puzzle, he has three world championships in which he has played a vital part.
> 
> anyone who is ever seen Kobe play knows he is the toughest player with the chips on the table.
> 
> Kobe has intangibles which go beyond just skill, he has heart, he has the killer instinct and he has a competitive drive that keeps him motivated.
> 
> I don't care what other people think of Kobe, I think Kobe is an absolutely fantastic player and the most exciting player to watch game in an game out.




I respect your opinion as well. I'm glad some people in here can actually discuss things in a civil manner instead of just blurting out their meaningless banter....


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## BballChickaDee

> Originally posted by *beautifulkobe *
> ...Tracy,vince etc dont have half the talen or skill that kobe does.
> I dont see tracy or vince ever being compared to mj or getting as much praise and attention as Kobe.


Now I wouldn't say that...Tracy and Vince are talented players, and I don't think attention makes a player any better. Now don't get me wrong I am a big fan of Kobe, but he does a get a little arrogant, and I think that's why people analyse him so much.


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## jvanbusk

I think people dislike Kobe and the Lakers because they are the winners, or champs. Arrogance may be a small part of it, but every player has a little swagger. If they don't, maybe they should not be playing. You've got to believe you are talented, if you don't you're not going to play to your full potential. As far as arrogance goes, I see nothing more arrogant than coming out to the media and saying that "my team s*cks" or something along those lines. People may perceive Kobe to be arrogant because of celebration, but that's because his team is winning. He's earned the right to celebrate. Once Tracy and Vince earn that right, I'm sure they will act in a similar manner and we will all say the same things about them. 3 rings will hurt your perception in the eyes of opposing teams fans.


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## Chops

Nice story. I think that's just a myth made up by Lakers fans to make themselves feel good about their players when someone offers up criticism. "You're just jealous!" Spare me.....


By the way, I don't dislike Kobe.


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## Patrick

I think Kobe haters will never go untill he does what Tracy and Vince do and that's lead a team to atleast the playoffs and hit shots consistently even when double teamed unlike Bryant.

I'm sick of these type of topics anyway, i've stated my oppinion and it's stays the same about Kobe.


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## STING

> Originally posted by *beautifulkobe *
> What did he do seriously.I dont get it.Every magazine or paper and sports critic and coaches compare him to jordan and they say Jordan passed the torch to him.Hes won already 3 titles at 23.Can take over games whenever he wants.Hes an amazing player who is the youngest player to win three titles in the nba.He scored more ponits in highschool then Wilt Chamberlain.Hes becoming one of the greatest but yet noone gives him any credit for anything.
> Everyone thinks hes overrated.Geez hes worked so hard to get here and deserves evry bit if success hes had.
> hes the only player in teh nba right now who could take over 4th quarters like if the team is down like 10 points.
> Hes an amzing talented player but noone gives him any respect.
> 
> Seriously whats so bad about kobe?
> 
> Obviously I know all the other fans of other teams hate him cause they want him on their team and they are jealous that we have him.


Basically, its like this

There are two types of Kobe haters

1) People who hate Kobe because he is a dominant player that beats their teams

2) People who hate Kobe because he is arrogant, disrespectful to other players, thinks he is all-that, and because they are pissed that his wife married him instead of them.


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## BullsAttitude

I don't hate Kobe, but I don't think he deserves all the recognition he gets. Michael carried teams of unestablished players to the Conf. Finals. Scottie didn't become a star until the '91 season, a superstar until the '92 season. Yet, the Bulls were in the Conf. Finals 8 times in 10 years. Why, cause Michael carried them there, he didn't have a Shaq to throw it into, a Shaq to dunk on everybody's heads, a player who is bigger and dominant. Kobe has that and has Shaq to fall back on if he has a bad game. Don't get me wrong, Kobe has tremendous talent and is one of the best players, but he hasn't carried the Lakers. At the age of 22, Michael didn't have titles but he did something that Kobe hasn't done. He almost beat the eventual champions himself. He carried his Bulls, which consisted of nobodies, to double overtime loss to the Celtics. Those Celtics were considered to be one of the best teams of all time. 

Kobe gets all this attention of being the next Michael when he has a long way to go. Kobe is great but he is no Michael, the true test for Kobe will be when Shaq is gone and Kobe is the leader. Then we will see if he can carry a team or take over games.


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## Sean

> Originally posted by *BullsAttitude *
> Then we will see if he can carry a team or take over games.


Umm, I think we have already seen this.


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## Chops

He means for a whole season, not once or twice, here and there....


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## SLiM9287

the hate cuz they cant be him and he has the thing everyone in the nba wants a RING


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## Jamel Irief

Wasn't Kobe's career high in a game Shaq sat out? It was higher than anything Carter or McGrady have done. I believe he only played 35 minutes in that game to!


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## Chops

Yeah, the Grizzlies made a mistake by choosing not to double-team Kobe... That was incompetence on their part.


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## DP

Oh I get it. Kobe <b>has</b> to be double teamed now. Gosh, is he *that* good ?


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## Chops

Yeah, when he plays the Grizzlies without Shaq it would be wise for them to double-team Kobe instead of having a rookie defend him full time. Common sense.....


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## DP

So now Sidney Lowe lacks a common sense. Oh ok. Kobe scored those points because Grizzlies coach is a fool rather than because Kobe is any good, right ?


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## Chops

Well, you have to admit that it was foolish to defend Kobe with a rookie and not double-team him all night, especially after they realized Battier couldn't get it done......

<strike>Chill on the attitude.</strike>


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## DP

Just because a poster doesn't agree with you, he is said to have an attitude ?  Stick to basketball. Anything else will be deleted from this point on.

As far as single teaming Vs double teaming, who cares ? He <b>still</b> had to make shots and he <b>did</b>. So I give him props for that. You choose not to and that's fine. I am sure Kobe won't lose any sleep over it and neither will I.


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## Chops

Yeah, props to Kobe for lighting up a rookie one-on-one. He is the greatest.....

Edited : No personal attacks and I mean it - DP


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by *KC *
> Yeah, when he plays the Grizzlies without Shaq it would be wise for them to double-team Kobe instead of having a rookie defend him full time. Common sense.....


When I watched that game, it was Grant Long, the long-toothed veteran on Kobe, not Battier.


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## hOnDo

KC is just a kobe hater anyways, he doesn't want to admit that kobe has more game than his sac town kings do. kobe can light up whoever he wants.


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## hOnDo

hey how come KC isn't a mod anymore? :upset:


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## SLiM9287

> Originally posted by *hOnDo *
> 
> 
> 
> Kobe is definately Top 5 material, and I'm pretty sure that Jordan missed an important shot somewhere in his career.
> 
> I think that KC is just a Laker hater because he is all over bashing Shaq and Kobe and the Lakers.


IN JORDANS CAREER HE MISSED 30 GAME WINNING SHOTS AND DO I NEED TO REMIND U OF WAT HAPPENED AGAINST ORLANDO IN 95'. AND ALL THE PPPL THAT HATE ON KOBE ONLY HATE HIM BECAUSE HE HAS THE ONE THING EVERYONE WANTS A RING AND HE HAS THE MOST DOMINANT CENTER IN THE HOSTORY OF THE GAME ALONG SIDE THE BEST COACH EVER.


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## SLiM9287

> Originally posted by *Jemel Irief *
> Wasn't Kobe's career high in a game Shaq sat out? It was higher than anything Carter or McGrady have done. I believe he only played 35 minutes in that game to!


HE HIT 56 POINTS IN 32 MIN WEN SHAQ WAS OUT. AND THE NEXT NIGHT IVERSON HOT 57 IN OVERTIME AND HE PLAYED THE WHOLE GAME AND TOOK LIKE 15 MORE SHOTS THAN HIM SO U DO THE MATH AND SEE WHO IS A TOP 5 PLAYER IN THE NBA


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## I Hate You

The reason why people hate on Kobe is because he seems spoiled and he's a Laker and they right now are the team to beat. People hate the Yankees, Duke, the Red Wings, The Rams etc. for the same reason. Also, I get the feeling Kobe's overrated because he plays in LA. Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady are 2 players who I feel are just as good as Kobe but they get nowhere near the respect he does because they play in small markets. So, anyways, Kobes real good, but as good as he is he still suffers from the "Overhyped cause I play in a huge market" disease more commomnly referred to as the "PatrickEwing" or "LatrellSprewell" disease.


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## 3PeatComplete

People hate Kobe for the same reason they hate the Lakers, which a lot of people do. A commentator once said it best, the first time they win, people are happy for them, the second time, they're okay with it, but by the third time, people are just hatin'. And it's true...fans of other teams are probably sick of seeing the Lakers being so dominant...they dont like to see their hometeams gettin beat.

And well, when I ask people why they hate Kobe, they say hes arrogant and lots of people thought he was a ball-hog after the All-Star game. 

To whoever ranked Vince higher than Kobe, I definitely wouldn't agree with that. And to whoever said Vince doesn't get compared to MJ, that's also not true. I'm a Torontonian that watches all 82 games of a Raptors season and he definitely does get compared as well, maybe not as much as Kobe, especially since Vince had injury trouble this year, but he still does.


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## JerryWest

Why people hate Kobe
1)Lakers won last 3 championships, he was a big reason
2)They like a different team, so obviously they won't one of the two key players of the team their team is trying to overcome
3)They were huge bulls fan, and obsessed w/ jordan and don't like it when announcers say he is better or compare him to jordan at "his age".

As a Laker fan, I don't like Jordan comparisons either, and I know Kobe doesn't like to be compared to Jordan either. Kobe wants to be the best, have the most rings ever, etc... Whether or not he ever becomes the "best" no one can know until his career is over. I think it's a little to early to say is, or to say that he isn't... 

he doesn't want to be the next anything, which is a reason why I like him.


As for "lighting up a rookie", T-mac had a chance to light up that same rookie, he's a had the chance to light up numerous inexperienced players, but he didn't top kobe, now did he?


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## Chops

> Originally posted by *KennethTo *
> As for "lighting up a rookie", T-mac had a chance to light up that same rookie, he's a had the chance to light up numerous inexperienced players, but he didn't top kobe, now did he?


Well, in all fairness to T-Mac, he gets double-teamed every night. The Grizzlies decided not to double-team Kobe.....


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## Dr. J

There is no top five players. Not in the NBA now. There is the top one- O'Neal

then there is a gap to Duncan. Then there is a gap again.

At this point comes a bunch of players. I would put Kob ein that mix. The T MAC, Kidd, Garnett, Iverson, maybe Nowitzski if he plays D.

I am not a Kobe hater. I admire him. That rebound he made against the Spurs was very Jordan like (almost when Mike stripped Karl Malone of the ball). That said, he is overrated. I don't want to hear how he won 3 championships. Mark Madsen has more championships than Ewing, Barkley, Malone and Stockton, doesn't mean he is a better player. During the drive for the champs, the Lakers have been against the wall twice. Once against Portland during the 1st win, down by 15 in the 4th. THe last time against the Kings, down 3-2. IN both times, it was O'Neal that brought them through. When the chips were really down (sorry for the bad cliche), O'Neal got them out. Kobe was a great contributor-like Pippen which is great company.

If Vince or McGrady were on the team, the Lakers still would have won. I think alot of people are like me, not Kobe haters, just trying to ***** the Lakers fan balloon who want to get Kobe put in the hall of fame today. IN 15 years sure, but lets see if he can keep it up and lead a great team.


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## beautifulkobe

Not nice, beautiful. - DP


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## beautifulkobe

DR J you are wrong in more ways then one.


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## jazzy1

I think two reasons why people hate Kobe haven't been said one he's not street enough didn't grow up in the hood sort of like the anti-Iverson speaks well, well groomed ,wears clothe's that actually fit him and two people like to pull for the underdog Tmac and Carter in the eye's of experts are clearly not as good as Bryant but because they don't play on championship teams people want to give them props like Kobe gets unwarranted press or something, Horace Grant who played with Jordan ,Kobe and Tmac said that TMac doesn't have Jordans and Kobe's day in and Day out focus thats coming from someone who should know,check the slam magazine for his comments.


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## IV

*why people hate Kobe Bryant*

We have all been hearing about the so called next Jordan. Hill, Penny, Stack, Harold Miner, Rider, and so forth. There is only one "the next Michael Jordan." His name is Kobe Bryant and this is why people hate him so. He is a winner, has a killer instinct, and just flat out is unguardable.


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## Lizzy

> Originally posted by *beautifulkobe *
> What did he do seriously.I dont get it.Every magazine or paper and sports critic and coaches compare him to jordan and they say Jordan passed the torch to him.


Because they all compare Kobe to Jordan and he has yet to accomplish many of the things Jordan did. He's been compared to Jordan for 4 years. It gets old but it's not his fault.



> Hes won already 3 titles at 23.Can take over games whenever he wants.Hes an amazing player who is the youngest player to win three titles in the nba.He scored more ponits in highschool then Wilt Chamberlain.Hes becoming one of the greatest but yet noone gives him any credit for anything.
> Everyone thinks hes overrated.Geez hes worked so hard to get here and deserves evry bit if success hes had.


I agree. His work ethic is one of the best. I admire his detirmination



> hes the only player in teh nba right now who could take over 4th quarters like if the team is down like 10 points.
> Hes an amzing talented player but noone gives him any respect.


He's the only player who can take over in the 4th quarter? Try watching some other teams. There's some guys named Paul Pierce, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Baron Davis, Steve Francis, Jason Kidd, SHAQ, - all these guys can lead their teams from a deficet. Maybe giving Kobe so much credit is why people tend to dislike him.



> Seriously whats so bad about kobe?


Not much. He's one of the league's best.



> Obviously I know all the other fans of other teams hate him cause they want him on their team and they are jealous that we have him.


Not really. Sure, any team would be better with him but most people, you may find this hard to believe, love the guys on the teams that they root for. Toronto would rather have Carter. Philly would rather have Iverson. Boston would rather have Pierce. Chicago would rather have our young, exciting team. 

Saying other fans are jealous is like the fat girls in spandex on Ricki Lake saying that the crowd is jealous. Yeah he's a great player. He's fun to watch. But the rest of the league doesn't have to love him. Who cares? He gets mad respect but people don't have to worship him. What's the big deal?

Are you jealous of Orlando for having McGrady? No? Then why should Orlando fans be jealous of Kobe?


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## LupinIV

Pleazz. One spectular 4th quarter doesn't make up for the poor 3 quarters that went before. Kobe doesn't shoot a high %, he forces bad shots, he missed more FT against the Kings than Shaq! When Shaq was out, Kobe stunk it up by missing over 65% of his shots. Needless to say, Lakers were pretty average when they had to rely on Kobe. 

Yeah, he turns it on in the 4th quarter but where was he the other three? MJ brought his A game to all 4 quarters, my boy. If it was T-Mac who partners Shaq, the Kings would not be able to out play them. 

The media wants to hype him, sure. But that's just hype.


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## TwinkieTowers

I might be able to point out one thing that could bring Kobe-haters, if it wasn't already mentioned.

Kobe Bryant pulled a "Steve Francis" (even before Francis was drafted), meaning, he whined and whined and whined at the then-Charlotte Hornets when they drafted him until he got his wish, and was then traded to the Lakers for Vlade Divac.

Would the Hornets have moved if they kept baby Kobe in Charlotte?


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## JerryWest

yep, they still would have moved, because the fans would still hate the owner...

Only thing that could have saved charlotte was a change in ownership or giving Jordan some ownership a couple years ago, but they didn't...

As for his FT shooting for a series being a representation of himself, I guess the Kings players all suck at FT huh, because alot of their stars shot worse from the FT compared to shaq as well during the series  

Look at Kobe's FT any other time and it's one of the league's tops, it's better then TMacs


Kobe shoots a better Field goal percentage then TMac, can't imagine how bad Tmac is then


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## Bean the pimp

> Kobe shoots a better Field goal percentage then TMac, can't imagine how bad Tmac is then


Kobe has a career .458 FG%
T-Mac has a career .452 FG%

there isnt much difference


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## SLiM9287

he did go to rucker so i guess tracy is the pretty boy now?


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## Lizzy

Nobody here has said that Kobe sucks. Everyone is saying that he's one of the very best in the league. Lakerfans are getting angry and arguing b/c people aren't saying Kobe is THE BEST. I really don't understand this at all. It has been my experience talking about basketball on message boards off and on for 2 years that Kobe isn't hated. Kobe fans are. And it's for the reason mentioned above. When all is said and done Kobe might go down in history as the best basketball player ever. Why does it have to be a fact now?


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## Turtle219

woah, VC better than Kobe.. i consider myself a Kobe hater but i wouldn't say that...i feel T-Mac is better than Kobe thou...

My personal reason why i hate Kobe:
i LOVED Eddie Jones (he's too old to play with the young athletic kids today thou) The whole arena would chant his name in unison, and when Jerry West said "He's not going anywhere" and then BAM!, he's gone? it gave me a little tick against the person who forced the issue... KOBE

I don't like Kobe because he is over hyped (like VC) and they believe in it as well, he doesn't play GREAT defense, almost no one in the league plays great defense, he doesn't shut anyone down the whole game. TV analysts say something stupid and it carries thoughout the nation like wild fire... i have many a time seen him watch the guy go by him (they do have Shaq thou so its not an issue)
i remember one really DISTURBING game where NBC Matt Guckas and Bob Costas starting drooling over KObe so bad that they forgot they were supposed to do the game... i thought they were almost gonna go onto the court and give Kobe a dirty sanchez

That whole Shaq/Kobe thing was, in my opinion, Kobe's fault... and i bet he believes that he would be even better if not for Shaq... 

You can tell he poses for the cameras, he loves the attention and how people put him on a pedestal and praise him like a god...

But he is one of the best players in the league, his drive to become the best is matched only by a few in the league today. His athleticism and skills are crazy as well. But i just don't like the guy...

just my opinion...

harold miner.... hahaha fond memories...


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## Jamel Irief

> Originally posted by *KC *
> 
> 
> Well, in all fairness to T-Mac, he gets double-teamed every night. The Grizzlies decided not to double-team Kobe.....


Lol, ok. Even when Shaq doesn't play its the old "Kobe gets single teams!" Maybe the Grizzlies were scared of Shaq sitting on the bench in street clothes and decided to keep a second man off Kobe.

Give him his props, he is better than McGrady and so is Shaq. You can praise T-Mac when he wins a playoff series.


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## twolvefan11

because he complains after every shot!


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## DP

> Originally posted by *twolvefan11 *
> because he complains after every shot!


What/who the hell are you talking about ? 
I saw the post directly above your's and your post isn't in the context so I am wondering who/what you're responding to.


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## Jamel Irief

I'm pretty sure twolve was answering the thread title DP


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## DP

Sure that makes sense Jemel. *On the 4th friggin page !* 

BTW twolvefan11, name a player in NBA that doesn't whine about fouls called on them. Kobe does it much less than most.


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## <<<D>>>

Why does everyone hate KOBE???
Hmmmmmm???
Can you say 3-Rings and a Dagger for the haterz hearts!!!

Twolvefan11.....Make sense " NOT NON-SENSE "


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## Chops

> Originally posted by *Jemel Irief *
> 
> 
> Lol, ok. Even when Shaq doesn't play its the old "Kobe gets single teams!" Maybe the Grizzlies were scared of Shaq sitting on the bench in street clothes and decided to keep a second man off Kobe.
> 
> Give him his props, he is better than McGrady and so is Shaq. You can praise T-Mac when he wins a playoff series.


Say what you will, but the Grizzlies didn't double-team Kobe. That is a fact. The rest of your post is pure conjecture.


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## Louie

Let me give all the Laker fans the perspective of someone who rooted agaisnt the Lakers. I actually used to really like this team. I called that they were going to be the next great team back when the Bulls were still winning, and i rooted for them to beat the Blazers in 2000 (i rooted for Indy in the Finals cause i knew it was gonna be Reggie's last chance while Kobe was still young). However, this team as a whole has really turned me off over the past two years, as it has most of the people you all label as "Laker haters". I never enjoyed watching Shaq play, but i never considered that a reason to hate him. After they won their first title, however, he really started jawing alot about how great he was. When he said that his Lakers would kill Jordan's Bulls, that was the final insult. With all due respect to these Lakers, if it took them 7 games and 1 OT to beat the peja-less Kings, they wouldn't have much of a chance against one of the greatest dynasties ever. As for Kobe, the more i learn about him and hear him talk, the more i dislike him. He really does seem arrogant, but it's more than just that. Lots of players are arrogant. What annoys me about him is that it seems like the league wants him to be their next superstar, so they help him out here and there. How else to explain when he elbowed Bibby in the face in Game 6, drew blood, and was not even called for a foul, much less a flagrant. I could name alot more incidents. I'm not saying that he doesn't desreve his rings, cause he does. I'm just saying that he'll never replace Jordan or even touch his greatness. He'll come just about as close as anyone else, but when people compare him to Mike it drives me nuts. I know he's 23 and he's already won 3 titles but 1.)he had Shaq and 2.)he came into the league at 18 yrs., so he had an earlier learning curve. At age 23( or even at age 29 when he won his third title), Jordan could do things athletically and make shots that Kobe can only dream of. Is athleticism everything? No, but it counts for something. And not only is Kobe not Jordan's peer athletically, I don't think he has the same grit and determination. He had like 5 points in the 4th qtr. and OT of Game 7 on 0 for 2 from the field. Did Jordan have bad games? Of course, but never in a situation as big as that. Kobe is still a great player because he is one of the best 4th quarter players in todays game, as well as one of it's best overall players. I just can't stand listening to people call him the next MJ. Why can't the just call him one of the greats, which is what he is.


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## bebop

> Originally posted by *Louie *
> I never enjoyed watching Shaq play, but i never considered that a reason to hate him. After they won their first title, however, he really started jawing alot about how great he was. When he said that his Lakers would kill Jordan's Bulls, that was the final insult.
> 
> And not only is Kobe not Jordan's peer athletically, I don't think he has the same grit and determination. He had like 5 points in the 4th qtr. and OT of Game 7 on 0 for 2 from the field. Did Jordan have bad games? Of course, but never in a situation as big as that.


Right on. 

Basically it comes down to attitude. And it’s not just Kobe that people hate, it’s Shaq, Fox, Horry, Walker, etc. Like I said – attitude. People expect certain behavior from the champ -- a champion acts like a champion. Fans watch pro sport to witness greatness. And that greatness should be exhibited on and off the court. 

So when the champ acts like morons. It really turned people off. Like Shaq disrespected the MJ Bulls, or when Kobe delivered cheap shots in front of the media, or other stupid things said by Walker, Fox, and Horry took place; it made many fans shook their heads and say, “We want another champ.” 

So what is the bottom line? Class. The Bulls had class. So did the Rockets and the Spurs. 

Class people. Not farce.


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## <<<D>>>

*This again!!!*

YOU EITHER HATE EM OR YOU LOVE EM!!!
And we know how all of you feel.....
No surprises, just the same old story, same old opinions....year in and year out


 :laugh:


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## beautifulkobe

Wow thanks for all your insults, bashing,responses,and opinions.
I just wish I could see what would happen if kobe was on a losing team.How would you feel about him then?It sucks that for atleast 5 more years Ill never know.I know not just from reading peoples opions there are haters. In every state kobe gets booed.Phil said its a badge of honour.Hmm I dont know.

Everyone who said kobe is arrogant is such a hypocrite because all nba players are.Hell I would be arogant as well if I won 3 titles at 23.From reading all this stuff you guys said.I know some of you hate that kobe is compared to MJ 24/7 but I think what you hate more is that hes living up to it.He is proving each year how good he really is and every year hell probably get better.

Whatever say what you want about him and hate him as much as you want.I guess the naysayers will just wait and watch to see how far kobe goes up the ladder to greatness.


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## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by *beautifulkobe *
> Everyone who said kobe is arrogant is such a hypocrite because all nba players are.


yeah, but some nba players are more humble than others and don't flaunt their arrogance.


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## Louie

Exactly. I wouldn't say that i hate Kobe (I dislike him), but beautifulkobe, he is not nor will he ever live up to the MJ comparisons. That's not a fault- maybe noone ever will be as good as Mj. Then again, maybe someone will, but not Kobe. I think he does deserve credit as the best all-around player in the league, though (tied with T-Mac). He just seems to convey a certain brattyness that turns people off. He never had to struggle with a losing team like Jordan, Iverson, and most every other great player. He inherited the best imaginable situatiion (playing alongside Shaq) and all he could do was fight over the ball with the big man. Yes, all great playesr have a certain arrogance about them, but not all are percieved as being spoiled the way Kobe is. And the attitude of some (not all) Laker fans, that he and Shaq are invincible and unguardable, is also annoying. Did they not watch the Western finals? Did they not see Kobe harassed by Ron Artest during the regular season? Kobe will never be shut down, he'll always be able to get his points cause he's a great player and that's what great players do, but he can be guarded and harassed. What the Kobe/Laker hating comes down to is the attitude of Shaq, Kobe and a few other guys on that team. They do alot more whininng and trash-talking than Jordan's Bulls (although Pippen was a bit of a whiner too), and as a result most every basketball fan outside of L.A. roots for Sacto. Not only do they come off as a classier team, they are from an working class city with great fans (similar to Chicago, Boston, Philly, Detroit) and are a striking contrast to the smug, white collar, fame and fortune, showing-up-in-the-3rd-QTr.-of-a-playoff-game attitude of some (once again, not all) Laker fans.


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## Damian Necronamous

uhh..about that first line, he will never live up to MJ comparisons. He is living up to them. He's 23 years old, plays almost excatly like MJ, some teams are scared of him when he walks onto the court. By the time Kobe Bryant retires (13, 14, or 15 more years) he'll be known as the greatest to ever play.:yes:


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## beautifulkobe

I agree with xfactor.There is a reason why noone has been closely compared to mj as Kobe has.I think every article Ive read in a magazine or by a columnist has compared him to Mj.Its not gonna go away anytime soon either.You cant say kobe cant be as good or better then Mj cause you havent seen him even in his prime yet.Hes only 23.Who knows what he will and wont become.
If he is already regarded at 23 as the best player in the league what do you think people will say about him 2 years from now?Just think and maybe watch a tape of kobe and what he can do with a basketball.


Its not just the media that compares him to mj the fans do it too whether its negative or positive.Its inevidable that hell be compared to him(The majority of things he does are similar to mj)


Oh and now about the kings being classy.Thats funny.The kings are still whining today about the finals.The coach wrote a letter about reffing or some crap when the lakers were playing game 1 of the finals.The kings and there fans are the least classiest team Ive ever seen.


Back to the subject of kobe hating keep the opinions coming.


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## Ice

Well first of all I think everybody should just stop getting so worked over these Kobe and MJ comparisons. They're going to keep on coming no matter how unwarranted they are. Its just a waste of time to respond to them.

Now to the business at hand. My take on Kobe is that yeah he comes off as arrogant and cocky but hey he has a right to have a little swagger when you're a three-time defending champion and happen to be one of the best players in the league. But the fact of the matter is he is one of the hardest working players in the NBA, he's at where he is right know because he's worked so hard. You don't have to like him but you have to at least admire his work ethic and that he is one of the best players in the league.


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## Louie

Yeah, I agree with you Ice, I'm explaining why people don't like him. But X factor and beautifalkobe, I admire your belief in your players, but don't kid yourself. Kobe does not play exactly like Jordan because he can't do the thing physically that Jordan could. He's easily the closest thing to Jordan that the league has now, but at age 23 Jordan was a freak of nature athletically. He wasn't the winner that Kobe is at that time, but that's because he was like a rookie or a second year player. And Kobe is in his prime now. Forget the fact that the average player peaks around age 27- the average player doesn't enter the league at age 18, and the average player isn't the fast learner that Kobe is. Physically, most players are at their most potent around age 23. Jordan could do things at that age that he couldn't do by the time he won his first title. 27 was considered the beginning of his prime because that's when he started to learn how to win as a team player. Kobe already has learned that, as well as alot of other things that most don't figure out till age 27 or later. But just cause he's an earlier bloomer than Jordan does not mean that he's a better (or even as good of a player). Even when Jordan was 27 or 28 and in the middle of his first title run, he was still a better athlete than Kobe is now at 23. Watch the old tapes if you don't believe me. I would say Kobe now is comparable to Jordan in 1997-98. However, just cause Kobe peaked early, I don't buy the arguement that he'll decline early too. His prime will just last way longer than most other players. He won't begin to decline physically for at least two years or so, and even then it will be barely noticeable and will be made up for by the fact that he'll improve mentally. So don't worry Laker fans, you'll have a great player for a long time. But people, I really don't think he'll go down as the best Laker ever. Shaq is better anyway (at 7'2 380 he'd better be), and it will be debateable whether he'll be better than Magic. Forget about him being the next Jordan- he's not it! What he'll be is one of the great 2-guards ever, and another Laker great.
Oh and by the way, if the Kings and their fans are so un-classy. how come everyone outside of L.A. cheers for them and not for the Lakers?(and don't gimme the jealosy excuse because Jordan's Bulls and Magic's Lakers were extermely popular when they were winning)


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## beautifulkobe

How could you say he wont do this or that.You or anyone else has no idea how far he'll go.Serioulsy look at his work ethic.He takes 10 days off after winning his third title,then goes right into working out.He is one of the hardest working nba players.He is also one of the most confident guys in the league.Jordans era is over.Now there are new young guys like kobe who could surpass him one day or equal him.Right now kobe is the closest to achieving that.When your 23, people still call you a kid.Kobe is not in his prime.He has long ways to go.


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## Louie

Nobody can say what Kobe will or won't do, but you can look at his physical abilities and get a pretty good idea. I agree with you totally that Kobe's one of the hardest working players in the L as well as one of the best, I just disagree with the claim that he is living up to the Jordan comparisons. He's coming as close as anyone currently in the league will, but he is not living up to the Jordan comparisons and I would be willing to bet that he never will. That's not a knock- just for anyone to mention your name in the same sentence as MJ is a huge honor. I just hate when people say he'll go down as the greatest player ever, cause he simply can't do what Jordan could. Where he does resemble MJ the most is where it counts- his heart. I have heard that he's one of the hardest workers around before- but Jordan worked at least as hard as he does now. I once heard someone say (i think it was Danny Ainge) that Larry Bird and Michael Jordan were the two hardest workers ever, and Jordan was the best athlete he'd ever seen on top of it. Maybe if Kobe keeps it up he can be mentioned with those guys in terms of work ethic.


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## beautifulkobe

Here is a blurb frrm Espn:


Just like Mike:After winning his third straight title,Kobe Bryant took off 10 days,then was right back in the gym,starting workouts with his trainer.Kobes relentless drive reminds Magic Johnson of only one other player:Michael Jordan.Agreed.



See Magic Johnson compares him to MJ even.Every sports illustarted Ive read hes been compared to Mj,all the nba gms,coaches,commentators,sports writers and analysists etc. compare him to Mj.The press treates him like Mj.


They do this for a reason a lot of his moves he has are very similar to Mj.Your right about one thing they both have the same wil to win and both werent afraid to take the last shot.


I suggest you dont bet money on the fact kobe wont be equal to him or better.He has years ahead of him.Phil even said when Mj was Kobes age all he really did was go straight to the hoop.He didnt develop his jump shot till later in his career.Kobe did that way earlier then him.Thats one of kobes best skills.


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## Louie

I said earlier that I agree that Kobe had one of the fastest learning curves ever, which is why he was able to enter the league at 18 and win a title at 21. 
But Magic Johnson is a part of the Lakers organization. Of course he's going to say stuff to promote his player. Theres no doubt that Kobe does things that remind people of Jordan- that's where alot of the comparisons come from- the fact that he's the closest thing to Jordan in today's game. The rest of the comparisons come from the NBA's marketing dept. or the television stations who need someone to take Jordan's place as the superstar who drives up the ratings. But if you ask any basketball mind (who's not affiliated with the Lakers) about it, and they'll probably tell you what I've been telling you. I saw a TV interview with Jerry West, one of the greatest basketball minds in the world and the man who traded for Kobe no less. In it, he said something to the extent of, "Kobe is not the next Michael Jordan. He may do some things that remind people of Michael on the basketball court, but he'll never be what Michael Jordan was." I'm not sure if those were his exact words, but that was the basic jist/context of it. I also saw a documentary about Jordan where an NBA analyst (think it was Ric Bucher) was commenting about what Jordan could do physically in terms of speed, leaping, and body control, and how Vince Carter was the only one in today's game who comes close. Kobe is a way better player than Carter, but he simply is not the physical specimen that Jordan was at his age. You have to realize that while some of the comparisons are warranted, others are cooked up by the league and it's TV affiliates who are hungry for someone to replace Jordan's ratings.


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## JerryWest

Yup I agree w/ you on that Louie, kobe isn't that athletic, if he's going to be the "best" it'll have to be form other attributes...


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## Louie

Exactly, KennethTo. I think actually a better comparison for Kobe, odd as it sounds might be Larry Bird. Kobe doesn't quite have his range, but he is much more athletic and a better defender, and with that same fast learning curve. I think Larry actually won his first title in one of his first seasons, so just like Kobe he figured out how to win very early. But that still didn't make him the greatest player ever.


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## beautifulkobe

Kobe wont be the greatest player ever.But he could end up in the top 5.Its so annoying a lot of people say kobe is gonna end up as penny or scottie pippen.He is a much better player then penny or scottie pippen ever was.None gives kobe credit.Shaq doenst make him better.He does that all himself.


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## jazzy1

KENNETHTO AND LOUIE COME ON MAN HOW CAN YOU MAKE THE STATEMENT THAT KOBE'S NOT ATHLETIC THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KOBE AND JORDAN ATHLETICALLY IS THAT JORDAN IS PHYSICALLY STRONGER IN THE ARMS AND SHOULDERS, hell Vince Carter is the best athlete the NBA's ever seen but Kobe and Mj have very similar hops but thats neither here nor there you guys are watching to many come fly with me tapes of Jordan I like Jordan's skill but Face It Kobe may surpass his accomplishments, Jordan maynot go down as the greatest player all time thats an evolving thing no one has ownership of it, it will change as the years go by, If not KObe could be Lebron James or some other kid but Kobe's definetly in the conversation,and with his youth talent and work ethic he could very well surpass Jordan ,YOU act like it's a bad thing, Jordan is great but not omnipotent someone will pass him maybe Kobe does,maye not but it will happen,

VINCE CARTER COMES CLOSE HE'S A MUCH BETTER ATHLETE THAN JORDAN WAS HE JUMPED COMPLETLY OVER A 7 FT GUY athletically you should be comparing Jordan to Him, not him to Jordan, Jordan is like Kobe one of the great athlete's in history not the greatest athlete, many guys are on par or better than them but thats not all that makes a great player

When Jordan came into the league as you say check the tapes there was no where near the great athlete's in the league that there are now just a fact look at the 63 pt CELTIC Game who did he have guarding him DENNIS JOHNSON a great athlete and DANNY AINGE who was a pretty good athlete but much smaller some of Jordan's stats may have been inflated because he was a run jump athlete ahead of his time with the advancement in training the new strength shoes and supplements and weight lifting most all kids have 40 inch verticle leaps there were great athlete's in the 80's but nowhere near like there are now. just a fact. I was being sarcatic about DJ being a great athlete he just couldn't keep up with Jordan.


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## k^2

> Originally posted by *beautifulkobe *
> Kobe wont be the greatest player ever.But he could end up in the top 5.Its so annoying a lot of people say kobe is gonna end up as penny or scottie pippen.He is a much better player then penny or scottie pippen ever was.None gives kobe credit.Shaq doenst make him better.He does that all himself.


Obviously he will be better then Penny and Pippen. People are just saying that those guys just put up better numbers when they played with Shaq which is obviously true. Saying that Shaq doesn't make Kobe better is obviously wrong. Compared to all the other top wing/guard players in the league (AI, Vince, T-Mac, Pierce) Kobe is the only player who doesn't have defenses focus on him and doesn't command the most double teams. Teams can simply not double Kobe because Shaq will murder them (even more). Kobe is greatly benifited by playing with Shaq. Kobe is also fortunate enouph to not have any injurie problems either, which is difficult for any player to overcome. Saying that Kobe isn't a great player is wrong, saying that he doesn't benifit greatly from playing with Shaq is also wrong.


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## JerryWest

I don't think anyone will ever truly be the best ever because someone will always come along that is better due to the nature of athletes getting taller, stronger, etc in general.

Could Kobe be considered better then Jordan someday? I think it's very possible, but it's too early to determine. it's to early to say he can never be better then Jordan either, because their are still aspects of his game he can still improve(IE 3 point shooting), and alot of basketball is drive, mental aspects, which Kobe has and is improving. He still has a long career ahead of him, and has the determination that might make it possible for him to win many rings, post shaq era.

I don't think Kobe has reached his peak yet though. He's not the "most athletic" but he's certainly one of the top 5 athletes right now and by far has the best work ethic of any "stars" in the league right now or any player in league right now for that matter, so he has a chance of best best from 2k to 2010 or so depending on how well he keeps on going, and what he does in 3 years or so when Shaq is either retired or severly diminished in skill level.

jazzy, yup jordan did go up against less superior swingmen in terms of athletics, that's why I don't like comparing players from different eras that much...

IE Wilt avged 60 pts a game a season, scored 100 pts but looked what he was going up against in terms of size of opposition at the time.

You can only say a player is the best of his time period IMO, IE Wilt in his time, Magic in the 80's, Jordan in the 90's, Shaq right now...

In the end, I can only say wait, as to how Kobe will rank in the history books  Of course, the more rings he gets, the better his case will be, here's to hoping he gets a bunch more


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## Louie

> Forget the fact that the average player peaks around age 27- the average player doesn't enter the league at age 18, and the average player isn't the fast learner that Kobe is. Physically, most players are at their most potent around age 23. Jordan could do things at that age that he couldn't do by the time he won his first title. 27 was considered the beginning of his prime because that's when he started to learn how to win as a team player. Kobe already has learned that, as well as alot of other things that most don't figure out till age 27 or later. But just cause he's an earlier bloomer than Jordan does not mean that he's a better (or even as good of a player). Even when Jordan was 27 or 28 and in the middle of his first title run, he was still a better athlete than Kobe is now at 23.


I said that earlier, I just didn't feel like saying it again. Saying that Jordan was ahead of his time physically isn't really a valid aguement cause he was still the best in the game when he retired the second time a few years ago. Things haven't changed that much since then, or even since the late 80's for that matter. You could make this arguement for Dr.J, but not Jordan.



> Face It Kobe may surpass his accomplishments, Jordan maynot go down as the greatest player all time thats an evolving thing no one has ownership of it, it will change as the years go by, If not KObe could be Lebron James or some other kid but Kobe's definetly in the conversation,and with his youth talent and work ethic he could very well surpass Jordan ,YOU act like it's a bad thing, Jordan is great but not omnipotent someone will pass him maybe Kobe does,maye not but it will happen,


Jazzy, I know very well that someone may one day surpass Jordan, but I'm pretty damm sure it won't be Kobe. Maybe LeBron, maybe someone else, I don't know anything about them. And when it does happen, it won't be a bad thing. But I've watched Kobe for a long time, and I'm telling you it won't be him. Jazzy, there is alot more that is different about Kobe and Jordan's physical abilties than his arm and shoulder strength. Jordan was unbelieveably athletic. He may not have been the dunker Vince Carter is, but he had an uncanny ability to hang and change direction in the air that noone else had-ever. Remember that move he did in the 1991 Finals when he switched hands in mid-air? He was 28 when he did that. When's the last time you saw Kobe do that? That being said, I agree with Kennethto that Kobe will probably go down as top 5 ever, being mentioned in the same breath as Jordan, Magic, and Larry. I believe he has the desire and the talent to do that, just not enough to be the next Jordan.


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## QBF

Kobe is a fabulous player at age 23. Obviously, one of the best in the game. I am just concerned that we as fans are blinded by Kobe's partnership with Shaq. Kobe is winning titles with Shaq, because of Shaq. He is not the leader of this team. His attempt to be the star of this team two seasons ago caused so much turmoil and dissent on the Lakers that there were persistent rumors that he would be traded. The Lakers have played .500 basketball when Shaq has not played, and Los Angeles would probably win about 42 games next season if Shaq decided to retire tomorrow.

Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway and Scottie Pippen were all fabulous players who would have made excellent compliments to Shaq. Age and injuries have taken their toll on all of them, but that does not take away from the players that they were.

Actually, the comparison with Pippen is the most appropriate one for Kobe at this stage of his career, because Pippen was the best of the bunch. There is a reason that Pippen played on 69 and 72 win teams and Kobe has not. There is a reason that Pippen won 6 NBA titles (and would have won 8 in a row, had Jordan not suddenly and unexpectedly retired). 

Kobe is the second fiddle, and he plays the same role for Jackson's Lakers that Pippen played for Jackson's Bulls. Pippen was the primary ball-handler and play-maker on offense for the Bulls, which is just what Kobe does for the Lakers today. Pippen would also guard the other team's best scorer or ball-handler, which is what Kobe now does.

When Pippen ran the Bulls for a year in 1993-94, the Bulls won 55 games (the Lakers have won 58 and 59 the last two years with Shaq and Kobe), took the Eastern Conference champion Knicks to seven games, and would have won the series and wound up in the NBA Finals except for a blown call by referee Hugh Hollins at the end of Game 5 that gave Hubert Davis three free throws with no time remaining. Pippen was MVP of the All-Star game, he came in second in the league MVP voting to David Robinson, and his ability to elevate his teammates' games got Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong into the All-Star Game.

If you compare Pippen's eight years between the Bulls' first and last NBA titles with Kobe's three years from the Lakers' three titles, you will see that, in less minutes, Pippen had a higher field goal percentage, a higher three-point field goal percentage, averaged more offensive, defensive and total rebounds, averaged more assists, steals, and blocked shots, and committed less turnovers and less fouls than Kobe. Kobe scored more points and had a higher free throw percentage. Kobe is the the better clutch shooter, while Pippen was the better clutch defender. In fact, Pippen is perhaps the greatest perimeter defender in the history of the game.

Kobe has won nothing without Shaq, as Pippen won nothing without Michael, and Kobe also has a little ways to go as a second fiddle to catch Pippen before we can even start thinking about putting him in Jordan's class. 

Let's all have this same discussion in about 10 years. If Kobe becomes the driving force of this team and they win eight titles in a row, then we may have an argument we can all agree on.


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## bjunkie11

listen all u playas....kobe is the best one on one player in the league.....mj admitted it,,,, ahmad rashad...byron scott....bill walton....shawq(the most dominant player in the nba).... any and every nba analysists said that kobe is the most talented and best one on one player in the league....even when steve jones and bill walton and kenny "the jet" smith were analyzing the playoffs... they all said that no one uses the same moves,dunks,etc. the way kobe does compared to mj...i know all the sacramento *edited* and **** arent going to agree...specially divac and his oscar wont agree....this kid came outa high school....proved jerry west he was for real...started as rookie...wont the dunk contest...and earned the respect of every other player in the nba...if jason kidd(true mvp) told the press that kobe is the future of the lakers franchise and there chances of getting 10 rings..for god sakes hes 23 and has 3 rings., mj didnt accomplish one until he turned 29. he doesnt need mvp when he and superman are ownin every other freakin team in the league...dallas and sac can make a all star lineup and the lakers will still be invincible...thats the anthem im out


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## jazzy1

First off Louie you're mistaken things have changed greatly since 98, even back then Mike got his lunch handed in the all star game by whom KOBE BRYANT they gave JORDAN that COURTESY MVP in that game Kobe ade Mike look like he was stuck in the floor, TMAC,Vince Carter, Paul Pierce Emerging all the young guys came into their prime since Mike's been out, How can you say it won't be Kobe who takes that mantle did you look into a crystal ball, maybe that was a cheap shot Didn't mean to take a shot at you, but seriously Kobe has the same knack,there are difference's in their game,some things Kobe does better than Jordan, Kobe has the same ability to hang in the air ,Just Listen to PHIL JACKSON WHO"S COACHED BOTH he say Jordan's stronger,same hops Kobe's a better ball handler, 

I have to agree with KENNETH TO who sums things up wonderfully, Kobe and Michael are from different ERA"S when Mike was a champion Kobe was a young buck when Kobe's a champion Mike's an old warhorse, so they never really dissected at the same prime. way to put your point KENNETH TO and LOUIE you make a hell of a point also.

QUESTION IF SHAQ AND JORDAN PLAYED ON THE SAME TEAM WHO WOULD BE THE FIRST OPTION 
answer SHAQ for obvious reasons.

For those who say Shaq makes Kobe's job easier you'd be right Kobe says so himself that he's has something alot of other great players don't have which is a dominant post player. But check this out Kobe makes Shaq's job easier too, 

and lastly to QBF SCOTTIE PIPPEN WAS A GREAT PLAYER A REALLY SPECIAL TALENT BUT ON HIS BEST DAY HE COULDN'T CARRY KOBE'S JOCK, Pippen is a natural facilitator Kobe's a natural scorer on his best day Pipopen couldn't score with Kobe's efficiency that's why Kobe had such a hard time filling his current role because he's a natural scorer it come's instinctually he had to go against his instincts to fill his playmaker role. Now Penny did play with SHAQ and got swept out of the finals Penny was more of a natural playmaker also nor is he the athlete Kobe is .

and all that banter about pip stat are window dressing for the fact that the man punked out of a big playoff game because of a headache, pulled himself out of a game because Phil had no confidence in him to call his name at the end of a playoof game get the pattern Pip was great but he was a fraud at key times, KOBE WON A CRUCIAL FINALS GAME WHILE SHAQ FOULED OUT MAKING EVERY BIG PLAY AGAINST THE PACERS, 

Now how well would the Lakers do without Kobe I figured they'd when 45 games and teams would Sag in on him frustrate him and get swept out of the playoffs, All Big men need superior perimeter play to win titles, 

Shaq and Kobe beat Portland 
Kobe beat San Antonio
Shaq and Kobe beat Sacrenmento
Shaq beat New Jersey

And I'll refer you to bjunkie 11 last sentence


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## Sir I Gotta Go

He may be as good as Jordan one day, but as of right now he is not even in Jordan's league. Which is not that bad because nobody else is either.


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## QBF

Jazzy1,

I totally agree with you. Kobe is a natural scorer and Pippen was a natural facilitator. He was not the pure scorer that Kobe is. But, then again, Magic was a natural facilitator, not a natural scorer, and I would say he was better than Kobe is also.

Pippen was a more efficient offensive player than Kobe is. He was able to score points within the context of the triangle offense and shoot at a fantastic percentage for a perimeter player. This allowed Pippen to co-exist with a pure natural scorer like Jordan and to elevate the play of role players around him. Kobe still tries too often to make his points on his own. This is why Kobe's shooting is still erratic, especially during the playoffs.

Penny played with a young Shaq who was not as good as the Shaq Kobe gets to play with and a coach who was nowhere near as good as Jackson is. Penny also had to contend with the '95-96 Bulls team that essentially destroyed the Magic franchise. Put that Penny on this Laker team, and they would be able to win more than 58 or 59 games a season.

You are also right to criticize Pippen's primary fault, which was his phobia for taking the last shot. Nevertheless, don't forget that it was his defense on Magic Johnson after Game 1 during the 1991 NBA Finals that turned the tide in that series. Jordan had the flashy, hand-switching lay-up, but Pippen turned in the best defensive series against Magic that I have ever seen. He also scored 32 points and grabbed 14 rebounds in the fifth and final game of that series. 

Additionally, if you look at Chicago's last championship in 1998, you will see that after Game 4, which put the Bulls up 3-1, Pippen was widely regarded as the MVP of the series. His suffering and aggravation of a back injury (one that I'm not sure his game has ever really recovered from) before Game 5 altered the course of that series. It allowed Utah to win Game 5 and return to Utah, where Jordan made two legendary plays in the final 30 seconds that won himself the MVP. Forgotten is the fact that it was Pippen's gutsy play in Game 6, when he should have been in street clothes, that allowed Chicago to even be in that game. Also forgotten is the fact that if he hadn't hurt his back, there would have been no Game 6, and he would have been the MVP.

Could he have carried Kobe's jock? Easy. Certainly easier than Kobe could carry Jordan's. Kobe shouldn't be compared to team leaders when he is the second fiddle on his own team. As a complementary player, he certainly belongs up there close to Pippen.


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## Louie

I would say that Kobe will easily go down as a better player player than Pippen. Pippen was a great facilitator, a capable scorer and the best one-on-one defender the games ever seen, but I'd take Kobe over him any day (unless i already had Jordan on my team) because of how he comes up big at the end of the game. Shaq is the first option through the first three quarters, but Kobe gets the rock in the 4th. Reason being you never want a big man as your 4th quarter go-to guy. Big men are easier to double and triple-team, they are easier to foul, and they tend to be worse free throw shooters. Kobe is similar to Jordan in that he comes up big for his team when it counts. I have a few problems with this quote though:


> things have changed greatly since 98, even back then Mike got his lunch handed in the all star game by whom KOBE BRYANT they gave JORDAN that COURTESY MVP in that game Kobe ade Mike look like he was stuck in the floor, TMAC,Vince Carter, Paul Pierce Emerging all the young guys came into their prime since Mike's been out, How can you say it won't be Kobe who takes that mantle did you look into a crystal ball, maybe that was a cheap shot Didn't mean to take a shot at you, but seriously Kobe has the same knack,there are difference's in their game,some things Kobe does better than Jordan, Kobe has the same ability to hang in the air ,Just Listen to PHIL JACKSON WHO"S COACHED BOTH he say Jordan's stronger,same hops Kobe's a better ball handler


First off, i don't remember Jordan getting his lunch handed to him- I remember that since it was an all-star game noone was really trying except Kobe at first. When Jordan started taking it as a challenge, he started turning it up a notch, but it was still an all-star game for God's sake. Secondly, while some young guys have emerged since Jordan left, some better old guys have faded. Guys like Barkley, Hakeem, Ewing, Clyde, Dominique- all those guys played against Jordan and were defeated time and again. In fact, the late 80's and early 90's are considered to be a golden age of basketball because of all the talented players who were in their primes at the same time. The league isn't necesarily worse now, but's it's not tougher. Kobe has never faced a great defensive team like the Knicks, Pistons, or Heat in their heyday. As far as he goes, I would say that he does have the same knack and may be a comparable ballhandler, but I'm sorry, Kobe does not have the same hops or the same ability to hang and twist in the air. Of course Phil's not gonna come out and say that Jordan was better- he doesn't want to alienate his player. Kobe is similar to Jordan in alot of ways, but it is a fact that he doesn't have the unstoppable athleticsim Jordan did. It's not a matter of different eras- Jordan would have been able to do that hand-switch in mid-air move in any era.


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## JerryWest

Kobe can jump just as high if not higher IMO, he doesn't have the same hang time though. It is harder to tell though because Kobe uses his mid range fadeaway alot more then Jordan did early in his career(who would go straight at the basket more often). Kobe has tremendous hops though, you can see it when he goes for the baseline reverse and he can jump very high and grab balls out for ally oops... I never really saw jordan leap as high, but like I said they are different players. Kobe's jumps for dunks and such are usually near point blank w/ tremendous elevation, Jordan "glided" more from mid range. Not to say jordan couldn't go as high, his style just made him choose not too... and Kobe's style doesn't allow him to hang as much because he can't grip the ball as well.

He just can't make some of Jordan's moves because he usually has to hold the ball with both hands going up initially, Jordan had huge hands so he could just palm it so he jump at the basket from mid-close range more often. but I think he can jump as well.

For what it's worth, Kobe didn't play against better team defences but he does play against better athletes/players in his respective position(2 spot). The 2 guard is the most loaded position in terms of talent/athlethism right now in the league. While the centers in the league have gone down the drain, the swingmen are better then ever.


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## Louie

Good analysis, Kennethto. You are right about there being more athletic swingmen nowadays, but Jordan did face some great athletes in his day. Gerald and Dominique Wilkins, Drexler, Dumars, Sprewell (one of the best stoppers anywhere in his day), and later on Eddie Jones. Plus he was facing the greatest wing defender ever, Scottie Pippen, in practice everyday. You make an excellent point about why Jordan was able to do so many moves in the air, but i don't think that Kobe can elevate higher than him going straight up. Remeber than move in the 1991 (or was it 1992?) playoffs against the Knicks where he went around Starks and Oakley and jumped straight up over Ewing and dunked in his face? Other than Carter's dunk over Frde Weiss, that was the highest I ever saw anyone jump up to dunk over someone. Without getting a legitimate team trainor on here to analyze Kobe vs. Jordan athletically I can't prove it, I can only offer evidence. But I'm telling you guys, Kobe is a great, great player, but he simply isn't the athlete MJ was.


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## beautifulkobe

OK first QBF Ill start with the allstar game this year.Hmm who was the leader on the west team.Kobe.When he came back in the second quarter after mgradys little splurge the west went on a 25-2 run.The west won.Kobe got MVP.No player has scored more then 30 points since Jordan did it in 1993.Also a nice tidbit Kobe and Julius Erving are the only players in history to finish with mroe then 30 points,5 assists, and 5 rebounds.It wasnt cause kobe hogged the ball it was because his teammates passed it to him and wanted him to shoot.The allstar game although its not a real game showed kobe can easily be a leader.The three games after the all star game(no Shaq) showed this as well.Especially when he killed jordans wizards.He only scored 23 points but had like 15 assists and like 12 rebounds.When they played Memphis without Shaq kobe scored 56 points in three quarters.He could of scored over 70 points that night but phil took him out cause they were up by so much.So kobe loses some games without Shaq.Do people really expect a 23 year old to win 10 games by himself with not so good role players and injured players at the time.


The thing is he doesnt act 23.He acts like hes been in the league for 16 years not 6.Maybe people dont notice but kobe isnt just the intiator,passer,creator,ball handler etc.Hes also the scorer.See kobe has pippens and jordans roles.He has the total game.Thats why so many people call him the best player in the league.Hes not thsecond fiddle espceially when he has so many roles to play on the team.He also plays three positions.Yes he gurads those point gurads like jason kidd,bibby etc. because none else can.Shaq needs kobe to do all this.He cant do it and only kobe can.Its like kobe runs the whole team with everything he does.
I know the offence runs through Shaq but kobe is a huge part of this team.One day kobe will run his own team and hell show people how good he really is if people dont get it.His contract is up in 2004 so who knows where hell go but he will go by himself.They lost those 2 sacremento games because kobe was ill.I bet if he was healthy sacre,ento would of been finished in 5.Kobe is teh co captain of the team.Hes not pippen,penny,etc.Hes kobe.None does what he does rigth now.Mgrady,pierce,carter etc may be better at some things then kobe but kobe is the better overall player.Box Scores dont have to show it all the rolese he plays shows it.


One more thing.Kobe said that hes gonna wait till hes 27.28 to strt jumping high and dunking like crazy.He said he doesnt want to burn out his legs so early.So wait and see....


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## Louie

> The thing is he doesnt act 23.He acts like hes been in the league for 16 years not 6.


Exactly. However, whether or not Kobe jumps as high as he can all the time, I'm sure he did in the Sacto series. When your team is on the brink of elimination, you're gonna leave it all on the floor. And I don't think you can say that the Lakers would have won in five had Kobe not been sick, because I really don't think that affected him for more than one game. And that's not even ,mentioning the fact that the Kings were missing Peja thorughout most of the series, and even when he returned, his J was still missing. He could have helped them alot.


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## jazzy1

BeautifulKobe I'm very impressed with your analysis you brought it real strong , Now LOUIE we going to the mat with this one I watched mostly all of Jordans games back in the first 5 years of his career when his was at his best athletically, and I'll give you this he was startling alot of people got on Jordan's jock when he started to win titles I like to watch him in his rawest form which was his first 5 years when he didn't trust his teamates and tried to win games single handedly, But like KENNETH TO and I have been saying you can't put his athleticism in it's proper context because he was a far superior athlete to many of the guys he played against, There WILL NEVER BE AN ATHLETE THAT SUPERIOR ATHLETICALLY EVER AGAIN IN THE NBA because that sort of athleticism is par for the course nowdays, 

I disagree with the comment that he didn't play against as great a team defenses like back then ,those teams you mentioned were more physical but not better than most of todays defense's I think now teams domuch better job scouting and preparing using videotape to break down every portion of the game, while the rules don't allow for the grab and pull down defense teams play much better help defense and with the zone limits some of the drives to the basket forays of many years ago thats why Kobe shoots that runner because teams try to set up more charges now like the college game.


Believe Me I think Mike is a better player than Kobe is but I think the gap isn't as far apart as some people may think I also believe before all is said and done KOBE will surpass all of Jordan's records but that won't deter from the greatness of Jordan because Stats aren't an accurate indicator of true greatness, KARL MALONE may one day soon pass KAREEM but is no way the PLAYER KAREEM WAS, FOR MY MONEY MAGIC JOHNSON STILL AND WILL ALWAYS BE THE GREATEST PLAYER TO PLAY THE GAME IN MY EYE'S the effect he had on the game as far as I'm concerned is unmatched, 

One more thing in Jordans favor athletically he was a much faster player than Kobe is in the open court I've seen fewer player get to the hole faster than Jordan,MATTER of fact DEAN SMITH said when Jordan got to carolina he ran a 4.5 40 when he left he ran a 4.2 40 that comes fro DEAN SMITH .

The young players are much better now ,I think the game is steadily improving not regressing I think the league's just young but there are more players emerging every year and in about 5 years the league will be back in it's HEYDAY.


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## Louie

You make alot of really good points. You are right about today's defenses doing a better job preparing, but the 2-time champion Detroit Pistons would be an unbelieveable defensive team in any era, just like the 95-96 Bulls would. Rodman was on par or better athletically with most of todays forwards, Dumars was an athlete as well, and the rest of that team just knew how to get inside your head. If they were in today's league, I bet they'd be the best defensive team anywhere. But overall I agree with alot of your analysis.


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## Sean

*props to you all*

Usually you don't hear from me unless there's a problem, but today I felt the need to give you props. I just wanted to thank you all for keeping this clean & civil. Each of you has your very firm opinions, but you're at least willing to discuss others without animosity or starting little back and forth tirades. Usually these types of threads get closed, but you are all doing a great job of keeping this one alive. Agreeing to disagree is a difficult thing to do. Thanks again.


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## beautifulkobe

Louie I respect your opionion.But kobe was sick for like 4 games.Game 2 he could hardly do anything and was collapsing on the court.Game 3 he still had little but no enegy because he had ivs pumped into him.Although at the end of game 3 he got extremely hot in the 4th quarter.Game 4 he was like 50 percent.He really was extremely sick.They needed kobe those games especially at the end.You think if kobe was like how he was in game 1 they would of lost.No way.If they were down in the fourth kobe would do his little heroics in the 4th and save them.It would be done in 5. I know this is old news I just wanted to clear that up.


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## Louie

I wasn't trying to say that he wasn't sick-I'm sure he was- but I didn't think it affected him that much in any game other than game 2 because he's a determined player who rose to the occasion. I guess we have no way of really knowing how much it affected his performance in those other games, but he looked pretty good to me, anyway. You could very well be right though, he probably wouldn't have let on how he was really feeling.


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## QBF

BeautifulKobe, you're right. Kobe is the best swingman today, better than McGrady, Jordan, Pierce and Carter. However, I disagree that the swingmen today are better than the swingmen in, say, 1995. The 23-year-old Penny and 22-year-old Grant Hill were fabulously-skilled players in the Kobe/McGrady class, and you also had Pippen and Jordan playing at an even higher level. Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell and Gary Payton were in their primes, and Clyde Drexler was aging ever so gracefully.

Additionally, you have to consider that Jordan had to fight through so many tougher team defenses than Kobe has had to face. I'm sorry, but the Knicks and Heat were so much more brutal than the Kings and Mavericks, LA's top challengers today that Kobe has to face today. The Eastern Conference has always been more physical, hasn't it?

Additionally, when you look at the flood of quality centers in their primes in the mid-90's, you realize how much more difficult it was to get to the hoop then than it is today. Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Motumbo, Shaq and Smits composed a group of centers that would dominate in today's NBA. Pierce, McGrady and Carter's teams would be fodder in the playoffs in the mid-1990's, just like Grant Hill's and Penny's (after Shaq) were. Kobe would be the only swingman to survive against the giants of the mid-1990's, and that is because he has Shaq.

This is why my respect for Jordan and Pippen is so high, because in the middle of an era that should have been dominated by centers, they dominated. With a center named Luc Longley, they toyed with the violent defenses, super-talented centers and young, hot-shot swingmen (Penny, Hill) that challenged them.

Once again, I go back to the fact that when Pippen was alone, with no Jordan, he won 55 games in that league and went down to the wire as league MVP. He was stopped by Hugh Hollins from pulling off what might have otherwise been considered the most unexpected season in the history of the NBA. His year without Jordan was the most versatile performance I have ever seen, doing for the Bulls even more than Jason Kidd did for the Nets this year. It proved for me how phenomenal Pippen's game was and how underrated he had been. Prior to that season, no NBA team had ever suffered the loss of a superstar and won even 50 games.

I just don't believe Kobe has reached that point yet. He is playing in a league that celebrates and encourages pure scorers, even though the league is dominated by one big man in the center. Until Jordan, we all knew that pure scorers could not win titles. I believe that holds true today. It took a super-versatile swingman in Pippen playing with Jordan to overturn the conventional wisdom, which is that centers win championships. That conventional wisdom is back today as Shaq wins title after title, and I don't believe Kobe is good enough to change it yet. He is very young and, if his game continues to grow, someday might be.

I agree with you that Kobe's game is kind of a cross between Jordan and Pippen. Still, he is not as great a scorer or athlete as Jordan or as versatile and efficient as Pippen.

Jordan led his team to titles, which Kobe has not done. Therefore, I rate Jordan ahead of Kobe. 

Pippen, Penny and Hill were all swingmen who led their teams. Pippen was the best of that bunch. Kobe has not led an NBA team through a season yet, and, when he has for short stretches during Shaq's increasing injuries, the results have been mixed. Therefore, at this point, I don't see how we can fairly put him above the Penny/Hill class. I have an open mind, though, and believe his game can potentially grow beyond theirs.


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## Pinball

*I disagree.*

But I can't agree with the athleticism notion. I think Kobe is as athletic as any player in the league. When I talk about athleticism I factor in a couple of different things:
1.Leaping ability-I think Kobe is as good as leaper as almost anyone in the league. Fact he he can sky and I've seen him head level with the rim a couple of times. The reason people might not think he is as athletic as some other guys is due primarily to the size of his hands. He's only got average sized hands whereas MJ and Vince have huge hands. In addition to allowing them to pull off more creative dunks, this allows them to palm the ball. This is critical. They can hold the ball out and away from the defender, get off better shots with one hand, and pumk fake with their hands giving them a big advantage.
2.Speed/Quickness-No one is in AI's class here but as far as players over 6-6 are concerned Kobe can run with anyone. I think he is 1 step faster than Vince and a half a step faster than Tmc and every bit as fast as MJ. When Dean Smith said that blurb about MJ going from a 4.5 to a 4.2 he was probably referring to how MJ evolved so much physically as an athlete. There is no way he ran a 4.2 40. AI was a football player in HS and was timed vetween a 4.5-4.6 40 so you get what I mean. Also I've seen Kobe on fast breaks outrun guys like Kidd and Tony Parker. He isn't the fastest player in the NBA but he is as fast or faster than anyone his size.
3.Agility/Flexibility-This is where MJ had the biggest advantage. Same with Kobe. I think he is one of the most agile 6-7 guards I've ever seen. His lateral movement is exceptional and he is like a contortionist in midair. Also his game is very smooth like MJs. To me Vince is a little bit hurky jurky and a bit stiff. But Kobe looks very graceful out there.

The biggest defense I can make for today's players when comparing them to MJ is that the athletes in MJ's day and age were inferior to these guys. Sure you had guys Dr. J and Dominique and Clyde who were exceptions but after watching ESPN classic games countless times I get the impression that these guys are faster, quicker, and more athletic than those guys were. And Jordan was a 21st century athlete going up against inferior athletes. He could blow by them at will or jump over them anytime. That is the reason why you had teams like NY and DET playing such physical ball. They had no one who could guard him so they beat him up. Today you can't just blow by guys or outleap them. You have to get creative. You have to use pump fakes, crossovers, jab steps, fadeaways, ..etc just to get a shot off. That is the biggest reason why I thought Jordan looked so athletic back then. Comparing him to Kobe now, I'd say Kobe has to get stronger to be as effective as Jordan. Jordan could outmuscle anyone at his position and it helped defensively as well. Kobe is strong but not nearly in MJ's class yet. The other advantage that Jordan had on Kobe was huge hands. But Kobe can't change that. Basically that is just my opinion.


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## jazzy1

QBF you make a great point when it comes to centers from back in the 80's and early 90's I hadn't thought of that factor, and I count Penny and Grant Hill into the modern ERA of SWINGMEN the Era of which I speak is the 80's and up to 93. The wing players from that Era just weren't as athletic as they are now, There are examples of athleticism but just not on current scales,every team now just about has an athletic wing guy. 

I dig how you respect PIPPEN AND JORDAN,The year in which you talk about Pippen'e team winning 55 games was the year I gained total respect for PIP"S game, that year was one of the great individual years of alltime. But I believe Kob is just a better plyer than is PIPPEN and given the opportunity knowing Shaq wouldn't be there Kobe could lead the Lakers easy to 5o wins, EVERYONE always looks to a short block of games to when Shaq was out and say AH HA KObe can't lead them pass .500 but I believe that isn't an accurate way to dtermine that basing a few games as compared to PIPPENS full season. FIRST OFF PIPPENS TEAM DYNAMIC IS DIFFERENT HE WAS THE UNQUESTIONED TEAM LEADER WHEN JORDAN WAS OUT,evryone on the team accepts that, IN KOBE'S SITUATION HE ALWAYS HAS TO WALK A TIGHTROPE WITH LEADERSHIP,him being a highschool player he came to a team full of vets who were there with him when he shot airballs against Utah and his other struggles, NOW that he is one of the best players in the league, some of those same players have a hard time relinquishing and submitting to his leadership because of his age, Fox,Horry ,Shaw,Fisher are all older and willing submit to Shaq but not Kobe because many still see the brash yung guy theywatched struggle and anytime he plays without Shaq and gets agressive looking for his shot they think he's being selfish, and sit back I think given a chance to lead the team if they knew Shaq would be out for a year he would lead them to similar success Pippen had, KOBE AND MIKE COMPARISON IS VERY ACCURATE BECAUSE THEY HAVE VAST AMOUNTS OF SIMILARITIES,hell Kobe patterned his whole game after Jordan,

And back to Beautiful Kobe's original question why do people hate Kobe it's quite simple people hate the way he mimicks Jordan's game,mannerism, and most of all Jordan's cockiness, But the thing people really dislike is that he has seemed to have mocked Jordan's results,because he's gotten the point other Jordan clones seemed to have missed he's copied Jordans work ethic which is something you can't fake, or pretend,you actually have to bust your butt and for that he honors Jordan everyday as Jordan Honored DR.J which makes Kobe an original that will be copied by others one day,SEE LEBRON JAMES the next KOBE.


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## QBF

Jazzy1,

I agree with most of what you're saying, both about pre-1993 swingmen and the difficulties of Kobe assuming a leadership role on this veteran Laker team. 

Certainly, the athletic swingmen who became a cross between the 1, 2 & 3 is a recent phenomenon. That's why I picked 1995, because that's when guys like Penny and Hill had become established stars and the centers were still around. They were the second wave of athletic swingmen, with Pippen really being the first. The August 2002 issue of SLAM magazine has a really interesting piece on Pippen's role as the "Revolutionary Swingman."

Kobe certainly has more of Jordan's end-of-the-game instincts than Pippen ever had. He is better at creating his own shot for himself than Pippen was, especially in the post.

But, for my money, I need to see Kobe as the unquestioned leader of his team before I can put him in Jordan's class. Previous to Jordan, a great perimeter player always needed a dominant center to win a title. It seems to me that this has never changed, with Tim Duncan, Shaquile O'Neal and Hakeem Olajuwon winning the last 6 non-Jordan titles. I don't believe a Kobe-led team could defeat a Shaq-led team.

As long as Kobe is a dominant swingman who can't win a title without a dominant center, I don't feel that I can elevate him out of the class of other great swingmen of recent times who couldn't win titles without a dominant center: Pippen, Penny, Hill, McGrady, and Carter. I put Kobe above any of those except for Pippen. I believe that if the 27-year-old Pippen had been playing with Shaq the last two years, LA would have won 70 games at least once. (If the more mature, 33-year-old Jordan was on the team, they would have won 80 . . . both times.)

And, Beautiful Kobe, don't worry, I'm not saying any of this because I hate Kobe. I admire how brilliant his game is, and he also bears the distinguishable mark of having been coached by Phil Jackson, who turns great players into winners better than any other modern coach. He will go down as one of the greatest basketball players ever, but in that upper pantheon of stars (Jordan, Magic, Bird), as of now, I can only put Shaq.


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## Louie

> I dig how you respect PIPPEN AND JORDAN,The year in which you talk about Pippen'e team winning 55 games was the year I gained total respect for PIP"S game, that year was one of the great individual years of alltime. But I believe Kob is just a better plyer than is PIPPEN


I really like this quote, and I think QBF made a great point about how they dominated the dominant centers of that day. As far as Kobe vs. Pip, i think Kobe will go down as a better player, but Pippen was absolutely the perfect complement to Jordan- he was exactly what his team needed him to be. I don't think Kobe now can have the same impact on a game that Pip did in his prime, but I believe that when all is said and done Kobe will go down as the better player because he's more of a team leader- remember, it was Kukoc who took the last shot in game 5 of the Knicks series, not Pippen. 


> The biggest defense I can make for today's players when comparing them to MJ is that the athletes in MJ's day and age were inferior to these guys. Sure you had guys Dr. J and Dominique and Clyde who were exceptions but after watching ESPN classic games countless times I get the impression that these guys are faster, quicker, and more athletic than those guys were. And Jordan was a 21st century athlete going up against inferior athletes. He could blow by them at will or jump over them anytime. That is the reason why you had teams like NY and DET playing such physical ball.


Det had Dumars, an excellent athlete at 6'6, and NY at first had Gerald Wilkins, also an excellent athlete at 6'6, and later John Starks, an excellent athlete but a bit undersized. I guess what I'm saying is that while there may not have been as many athletic defenders as today, there were still a bunch of them, and MJ schooled them all. Are Bruce Bowen and Doug Christie really more athletic than Wilkins and Dumars? I don't think so.Plus Jordan had alot more great shot-blocking centers to deal with once he had beaten his man, so it wasn't like he could just "blow by all the inferior athletes whenever he wanted". Ewing, Olajuwon and DRob were more athletic than any of todays centers (though not nearly as strong as the big Diesel, who Jordan also played against by the way). So I really disagree with the idea that Jordan didn't play against the same quality of athletes that Kobe plays against. But Jazzy1, you make a really good point about why people tend to dislike Kobe. David Falk once said that, "when people try to be like Mike, they're trying to invent a persona, and I think that people see through that.."


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## Louie

The following was posted by DetBNyce on the NBA forum, and it supports my earlier claim regarding Kobe's athleticism: 
i visited, 
http://www.jumpusa.com/psj1.html  and they had the listed vertical of: 

Kobe Bryant 38"
Shaquille O' neal 32"
Vince Carter 43"
Steve Francis 40"
Karl Malone 28"

It also had Spud Webb as a 46"
The younger version of Jordan, Nique, and Bird as 43, 42, and 28 respectively.


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## Pinball

*This site doesn't.*

http://www.geocitites.com/wink3online/features.html

It has Francis at #1 with a 45" vertical. AI, Kobe, and Carter are listed with a 42" vertical. So you have a 5" discrepancy with Kobe and Francis. I guarantee you Kobe is alot closer to 42" than 38" though. Why? I have seen him head level with the rim on several occasions which indicates that he has about a 41" vertical considering the difference between his height and the rim's height.


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## Pinball

*Error.*

That should be geocities. Here it is again:

http://www.geocities.com/wink3online/features.html


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## Louie

Alright, but i think that geocities site is a bit off. Francis at 45"? Carter and Kobe with the same vert? I don't know....then again, the site I provided may be a bit off too, cause 38" does seem a bit low for Kobe. Also, I heard that as rookies, Jordan and 'Nique could both get up to 45".


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## Pinball

*Regardless it's stupid.*

I mean every site is going to have a different number. The only way to truly find out is to measure these guys ourselves. I think the main reason Kobe is not as good a dunker as MJ and Vince is due not to his leaping ability but his hand size. I've seen Kobe attempt quite a few fancy dunks and screw them up because he loses control of the ball in midair. And he'll probably never be able to do that thing that MJ did vs. the Lakers in 91' either. That was just sick. Maybe Jordan could jump an inch or two higher but no seven or eight. I think Kobe can sky about as high as any SG out there.


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## Pinball

*Another thing Louie.*

Athleticism and hand size aside, it does seem MJ and Kobe share many similarities in their games. Both have great mid-range games. Neither shoots the 3 that well. Both have mastered that fadeaway shot. Both are great in the clutch. Both guys are very intelligent and can grasp concepts very quickly. And both guys have a killer instinct and a will to win. There are only a few things Kobe needs to work on IMO to reach MJ's level. #1 he needs to develop that overall court sense that MJ used to possess. I'm talking about MJ in the mid 90's. His awareness was incredible. He could sense just the right times to take over the game or sit back and get teammates involved. Nothing seemed forced. I think Kobe still tries too hard to take over the game at times. He forces alot of shots. I'd like to see him improve that this year. Also I remember how MJ was a string bean coming out of college but ended up being a solid 215 afterwards. He was so much stronger than most of the guys at his position. It really helped him on both ends. He could bull his way into the post and it was damn near inpossible to post him up. I think Kobe really needs to become stronger. He weighs about the same as MJ did but he needs to develop a bit more muscle. I think that would do wonders for his game. What do you think?


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## beautifulkobe

I said this before and I'll say it again.Stats do not define a how good a player is.If they did then all the experts,coaches ect. would rank Mgrady,allen iverson , etc ahead of kobe.Kobe is like 6th in scoring this year.He wasnt even in the top 3 for mvp.Mainly cause of him sacrificing his game for Shaq.But coaches etc rank kobe higher then all these guys not cause of his rings or cause he has shaq because he could do everything(not perfect but very well). Vertical Jumps and Dunks dont define a player either.Im actually glad kobes game isnt all about dunking.He hardly ever dunks even sometimes when hes on a breakaway he just lays it in.See kobe is so talented that he doesnt need to be the best vertical jumper or dunker.His perimeter shooting makes up for it.


About this mimicking Jordan.I doubt hes doing this on purpose.You think he goes hmm Ill only take 10 days off in the summer and have a work ethic like jordan.Ill do a fade away jump shot like jordan ect.No he does all this because thats who kobe is.He works his *** off to be the best player he can be, not be like jordan.He wants to be the best ever.He knows what it takes to achive that.I think hes doing a pretty good job of that so far.Hes his own person and has his own goals that he wants to achieve every season.

Now about him leading a team like Pippen did in 95.I dont expect to see kobe do that well Shaq is still here.Barring injury maybe people will see it 5 years from now.Shaq usually only misses like 15 games not even in a row.So its hard for kobe to lead his team for 5 games and let the offence run through him.Then switch back for two months and go back to letting Shaq run the offence.Then keep going back and forth.That doesnt sound to easy does it.G-d forbid if something did happen to Shaq and he could not play for a season I dont know if kobe could do that now. Hes only 23 hes basically younger then his whole team besides newly acquired Rush.Jazzy1 is right who knows if his team would trust kobe considering his past.Also his team is pretty old and a alot of them are soon to be retiring.Remeber when kobe was without Shaq thsi season lots of the role palyers were injured.I beleive kobe could do it one day.But the thing is we kinda only see parts of kobe.WE dont see his full potential yet cause he has to share his points with Shaq.HE does have the talent and will to do it.Many people say they wont give respect to kobe yet cause he has Shaq and dont know what he could fully do on his own.Well I think thats wrong.Kobe has been a huge part of every ring and without him the lakers would be ringless.He adds plenty of excitement and thrill to the team with his creative moves and heroics.


I dont think Kobe is better then Jordan or equal to him right now.But I do think kobe developed some amazing things that jordan couldnt do till later in his career.I think he is better then pippen.He has taken many more roles in his team then pippen.I dont care if he hasnt lead a team to 55 wins himself.I dont expect him to do that when hes not even in his prime and Shaq hasnt retired yet.Pippen would never had gotten the chance to that if jordan didnt retire.But jordan did retire and that is a great accomplishment. But at kobes age now what he could do on the court is pretty impressive.Also to be the youngest player to win 3 titles at 23 when Bill Russell got his first title thats also pretty amazing.Yes Shaq had lots to with these titles .But there is no "I" in team and Kobe and Shaq got those tiltles together ad the roles players to.Years from now people wont say ya Shaq led the team to 3 titles or how many more they get.They will say Shaq adn kobe were the dynasty.


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## Louie

Great points by both you guys.


> I dont think Kobe is better then Jordan or equal to him right now.But I do think kobe developed some amazing things that jordan couldnt do till later in his career.


Exactly- that's what I meant about him having a really fast learning curve, like Larry Bird.


> Athleticism and hand size aside, it does seem MJ and Kobe share many similarities in their games. Both have great mid-range games. Neither shoots the 3 that well. Both have mastered that fadeaway shot. Both are great in the clutch. Both guys are very intelligent and can grasp concepts very quickly. And both guys have a killer instinct and a will to win. There are only a few things Kobe needs to work on IMO to reach MJ's level.


Definitely agree with you here. However, because of the discrepancy in athleticism/hand size, i don't think Kobe will ever reach MJ's level. Not to say it's impossible, just saying I don't think it will happen cause to do so he will not only need to have talents that we don't yet know about (which is very possible), he will have to outwork the hardest worker in the history of the game. I think Kobe (and possibly LeBron) will come closer than anyone else, though.


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## jazzy1

Man this is some really good stuff This thread has brought out the cream of the crop in logical ,exact and fair minded thinking on this subject concerning historical NBA points and current ones, This has been a blessing for me to discuss the NBA with people who actually Know what they are talking about using sound analysis instead of the typical rhetorical fan like banter, WHILE I DON"T AGREE with some of this still I for the first time can say I see your point and actually SEE IT I need to pull you guys into other threads on this board to bring the quality of discussion to this sort of level ,

BEAUTIFUL KOBE,LOUIE ,QBF and others look forward to discussing further topics with you. 

One thing I agree on QBF is that you have to wait and see if Kobe can lead his own team but at the same time he deserves all the props to leading his current team from the perimeter to a championship level. I have a feeling he could lead a team just as well, just give him a Pippen quality player to run with. Kobe's still better though had to take one last shot PEACE


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## Louie

Yeah, this thread really evolved into an amazing thing. I think i;m gonna post more on this forum, and i encourage you guys to post on the Kings forum as well to get some more threads like this. And for the record, IMO Kobe is the leader of the Lakers, and could easily lead a team by himself w/out Shaq.


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## DP

> Originally posted by *Louie *
> And for the record, IMO Kobe is the leader of the Lakers, and could easily lead a team by himself w/out Shaq.


Can't agree with you more. I think Kobe will show one day he can and will win without Shaq but I *can* wait to find that out.


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## shobe42

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> Vertical Jumps and Dunks dont define a player either.Im actually glad kobes game isnt all about dunking.He hardly ever dunks even sometimes when hes on a breakaway he just lays it in.See kobe is so talented that he doesnt need to be the best vertical jumper or dunker.His perimeter shooting makes up for it.


I agree with you on everything(including that Kobes the best in the game) except that Kobe dunks quite often.

TNT kept a stat about who leads the league in dunks and through the second reg. season game between Mil. and LAL they showed a stat that had Kobe dunking more than anyone else in the league and by a considerable margin.

While we are on the dunking subject who remembers Kobe in game four I believe vs. the nets when he leaped thru the lane from just inside the freethrow line and dunked on everybody. That was great.


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## Louie

The discussion wasn't really on whether he dunks alot, it was just about how his athleticism is what IMO is going to be what keeps him from reaching Jordan's level. Noone doubts he's athletic, just not at Jordan's level in that respect.


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## beautifulkobe

Shobe42 I remeber that dunk like it was yesterday.One of the things I love about kobe is that you dont know what hes gonna do next.That dunk came out of the blue and the clock was runing down.I had no idea he was gonna fly to the rim like that.He literally flew from the freethrow line to the rim.That was unbeliavable.Also I didnt know kobe dunked more then anyone in the league in the season.Hmm Interesting.

I think his season is gonna be the best one yet.Kobes talent is on a different level then anyone else.The things he does and his creative moves are awesome.


The other plays that stick out from the finals.Those crazy threes at the end of game 2.Right after the second one Marv Albert called Kobe MJ.That was amazing.Then in game 3 first he shot a clutch three with kmarts hand in his face.Then that shot with kidd and kittles all over him and he shot it in when kidds hand was right infront of his face and kidd was holding his arm.Thats like the most difficult shot to take.


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## shobe42

The dunk was cool but the last two shots you named the one with K-Mart in his face and with Kidd holding his arm is what seperates Kobe from the rest of the league. Those were both very clutch. And you almost could mistake him for Mike cause before he shot it you know it was money.


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## Batman17

I don't know why people hate Kobe, the guy has done nothing wrong. They say he's arrogant and cocky; well ha! who in the NBA isn't in fact McGrady i probably the most arrogant and cocky guy in the NBA! Yet here nobody says anything about i?!!!! They say Kobe is nothing without Shaq?!! Was Tracy nothing without Vince?!! And don't give me that bull of he blossomed! He didn't he just got put into a different situation. In one year you don't just blossom like that. Also McGrady hasn't proven himself with another star on the team. When Hill was alright for awhile McGrady's stats dropped. Well, some would say well he's not used to playing with Hill! To that I say well Kobe's not used to playing without Shaq! You see the offense and all the players are built around Shaq not Kobe. To be Kobe's team there would have to be players more suited to him. The lakers of now aren't athletes or run and gun, they slow the game down and hit shots from outside. Even without Shaq, Kobe scored 29 points per game and had a triple double! You see with Shaq gone just like with Hill gone Kobe's stats went up. There wasn't a superstar to drag him down. And people say Kobe doesn't get doubled! Thats such baloney. Without Shaq he averaged about 29 points per game and he shot about 46 percent from the field. And in games Kobe usually goes on his bursts when Shaq is out of games. What does McGrady have against Kobe? He's not quicker when they played against each other Kobe blew past him at will. T-Mac can't dribble as well as Kobe either. T-Mac is a lazy defender, he could be a better defender but sometimes it doesn't seem he puts forth the effort. As even Ewing and Grant said. T-Mac isn't as good in clutch! Well lets face it he sucks in clutch. He's had a few better clutch games this year but not enough to change that he's not that good in crunch. I will say though that he's stronger and perhaps a better rebounder. I say perhaps because there are no rebounders on Orlando and the Lakers have Shaq. T-Mac is imo a better dunker as well. People say Kobe needs Shaq! Why what makes you think he can't do it on his own? He averages more points without Shaq. In fact Kobe could score over 30 a game if Shaq wasn't there. In the 2001 season Kobe was the top scorer in the leage at 30 ppg and you all know how that ended Kobe had to sacrafice his game as he still does for an out of shape Shaq. Vince Carter even ranked Kobe ahead of himself. So please give Kobe his dues, you don't have to say he's better than T-Mac even though i think he is. Just give him his dues. And acknowledge he's better as Vince even said than himself.


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## BizzyRipsta

batman, i don't want to burst your bubble, but you did mention that there isn't a person in the nba who isn't cocky or arrogant, and then you go off and only compare kobe to t-mac. there are plenty of guys in the nba who aren't on the same scale of arrogance as kobe (and if you want me to be fair, then t-mac either, if that really is the case), and that's one of the reasons why there are so many "haters".

by the way, i see that you're a new member here (am i correct?). welcome to the board! i hope you enjoy it here!


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## Batman17

Quote deleted. No need to quote when you're posting right under the post you're quoting. Thanks - DP 


Thanks for the welcome  This seems like a nice board I think I'll make it my haven for a a couple of days, but then I'll be gone for 3 weeks (traveling to Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, and maybe Eretrea) and then I'll be back


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## BizzyRipsta

you're welcome! 

have fun on your trip!


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## beautifulkobe

This thread was going so well lets not start bashing kobe again.All nba players are arrogant.Kobe has a right to be as arrogant and cocky as he wants.What other 23 year old do you know who plays for a markee nba team, has 3 nba titles,a gorgeus wife,katrillions of dollars,endorsements for many products,an upcoming massive shoe contract with Nike etc..Wouldnt you be a little cocky if you had all this?


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## BizzyRipsta

no, i'm not bashing kobe. i'm only saying that if someone's going to say that *all* players in the nba are arrogant, then don't compare kobe to only one person who can also be considered as arrogant. on the flipside, look at jason kidd. he has a lot going for him, but he doesn't let his arrogance control him. you know what i mean?


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## beautifulkobe

If kobes arrogance controlled him he would be walking around saying he is the best player.Ive never heard him say something even remotely close to that.For what hes accomplished so far thats thanks to confidence not arrogance.


Ive never seen someone so confident like kobe.Ill say it again hes on a different level then other players especially when it comes to his attitude.


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## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> If kobes arrogance controlled him he would be walking around saying he is the best player.Ive never heard him say something even remotely close to that.For what hes accomplished so far thats thanks to confidence not arrogance.
> 
> 
> Ive never seen someone so confident like kobe.Ill say it again hes on a different level then other players especially when it comes to his attitude.


no offense or anything, but of course a kobe fan will have a different opinion than a non-kobe fan. the same goes for any player and his fans. of course, you're not going to want to diss your favorite player, but am i required to have the same opinion as you, especially since i see things from a different set of eyes than you? and plus, i'm not alone on my opinion. most non-kobe fans agree that he is arrogant. if you feel that it's confidence, then fine. i will not try to change your mind, but don't try to change our minds either.


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## CoolHandLuke

Laker fans just don't understand why other people consider Kobe arrogant. It's the way he carries himself ON the court. T-Mac, sure, there are times I'd love to pop him in the jaw. Same with a lot of other players, but it has nothing to do with what they SAY to REPORTERS, it's about the way Kobe carries himself ON THE COURT.


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## beautifulkobe

Could you be more specific about "kobe carrying himself on the court"?



BizzyRista Im not trying to change your mind just giving my opinion like you are and defending kobe.


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## CoolHandLuke

What's the point? Not like you could be reasonable with my response anyway, but hey, here'goes... 

Just watch him. The thing that bugs me the most is when he whines to the refs for not getting a call, when the Lakers are getting a lot of calls. As much as I absolutely hate Shaq, at least he knows when to keep his mouth shut because the calls are going his way. Kobe, on the other hand, can't handle not getting the star treatment, and complains whenever he doesn't. That demeanor on the court will really keep a lot of people from liking him...


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## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> BizzyRista Im not trying to change your mind just giving my opinion like you are and defending kobe.


it's cool. i think that you and i have already settled that we have a difference of opinion and that no one is going to change. i'll leave this between you two now (unless i feel that i have something to add in).


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## DP

> Originally posted by <b>CoolHandLuke</b>!
> Just watch him. The thing that bugs me the most is when he whines to the refs for not getting a call, when the Lakers are getting a lot of calls. As much as I absolutely hate Shaq, at least he knows when to keep his mouth shut because the calls are going his way. Kobe, on the other hand, can't handle not getting the star treatment, and complains whenever he doesn't. That demeanor on the court will really keep a lot of people from liking him...



You just described any other NBA player. I have yet to see NBA player who doesn't whine when he thinks he didn't get the call he deserved. I don't know how many Laker games you watch but I tape the ones I didn't get to watch live and what I see is that Kobe *doesn't* get the star treatment and that's cool with me but I think it's the other way around. The guy gets killed driving in the lane and I see turn over awarded to the other team instead of a legitimate foul called on the defender. 

What does "when the lakers are getting a lot of calls" have to do with Kobe ? A foul is a foul is a foul. Kobe has every right to complain if he thinks he is getting jobbed which he is on most nights. You accuse Kobefans of not being reasonable and I accuse you of being fan of opposing team whose heart was broken by Kobe many a times. Just as unreasonable in my book.


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## CoolHandLuke

Kobe doesn't play any teams I like enough to "break my heart many a times." 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that, when your team is getting the calls, if you don't like ONE, you shut the hell up. Kobe complains when HE doesn't get the calls. As a result, his TEAM stops getting calls. And, I'm not going to believe that ANY player has "every right" to complain to officials, EVER. If he was an average bench player, he'd have more TECHNICALS than he does.


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## DP

So he shouldn't complain because other team is fouling Shaq 50 times in a game ? Lakers are perceived as a team getting a lot of calls because many of the calls are intentional fouls on Shaq. Don't focus on an ocassional miscue by Ref that went in favor of lakers because there are equal number of calls, if not more, that went against Lakers. They even out in the end. There will be a game when they don't and one team will benefit form a call but I have seen that both pro and against Lakers. 

As hard as Kobe gets fouled in the lane, yes he has a good reason to complain when he is getting jobbed even if the over all call stipped in Laker's favor that night. Ever been fouled by NBA PF/C ? I haven't but it looks very painful.


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## hOnDo

> Originally posted by <b>CoolHandLuke</b>!
> Kobe doesn't play any teams I like enough to "break my heart many a times."
> 
> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that, when your team is getting the calls, if you don't like ONE, you shut the hell up. Kobe complains when HE doesn't get the calls. As a result, his TEAM stops getting calls. And, I'm not going to believe that ANY player has "every right" to complain to officials, EVER. If he was an average bench player, he'd have more TECHNICALS than he does.



Maybe you should look at your own team and see who complains about calls. Remeber in Game 7 when Vlade fouled out and started rolling around on the ground :laugh:. Every All-Star gets treatment from the officials, Tim Duncan, Webber, Shaq, Kobe..its to be expected, that they are gonna be looking for calls to go their own way.


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## CoolHandLuke

Are you incapable of understanding my point, or just refusing to respond to it? I'm not talking about the OVERALL GAME. There are times, for example, a 6-minute period, where several calls are going the Lakers' way. Shaq is a crafty enough verteran to know that. That's why there are times that he just shuts up. Kobe, on the other hand, doesn't know when the right time to complain is, and when the right time to stay quiet is. That's why so many fans of other teams dislike him. I'm not talking about what the Lakers are perceived as, I'm not talking about expecting star treatment, and I'm not talking about occasional miscues. I'm talking about small periods of time where Kobe doesn't have enough sense to know when to keep his mouth shut. I'm not talking about an entire game. I'm not even talking about an entire quarter. And I'm certainly not talking about the Lakers' perception over the course of the season. THAT is why many people dislike Kobe Bryant. 

And, BTW, I'm not a Kings fan. That has more to do with my dislike of a certain person than anything else, but I won't get into that here.


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## DP

> Originally posted by <b>CoolHandLuke</b>!
> Are you incapable of understanding my point, or just refusing to respond to it?


Yes it's because YOU DON"T HAVE A POINT. I ask you again, name a player (with a possible exception of Duncan) who doesn't cry about a hard foul he didn't get.


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## CoolHandLuke

Are you READING MY POSTS? 

Okay, here's one: SHAQUILLE O'NEAL. If you refuse to attempt to understand the circumstances under which I'm referring to, that's your problem, but please don't reply to me until you attempt to, and then, at least respond to something I said rather than repeating something that's pretty obvious. 

I don't have a point? Well, excuse me for trying to help beautifulkobe understand more clearly why other fans dislike Kobe Bryant, I thought that was the topic of this thread! What was I thinking, reading the subject line and whatnot...

Oh, and where did 'HARD' foul enter the discussion? I'm not talking about HARD fouls at all...


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## <<<D>>>

> Originally posted by <b>CoolHandLuke</b>!
> Laker fans just don't understand why other people consider Kobe arrogant. It's the way he carries himself ON the court. T-Mac, sure, there are times I'd love to pop him in the jaw. Same with a lot of other players, but it has nothing to do with what they SAY to REPORTERS, it's about the way Kobe carries himself ON THE COURT.



I understand what everyone is saying and what they've noticed about Kobe's attitude/arrogance, but why is everyone caught up with that??

these players are young and very compettetive, For example, To name a few - KG, T-mac, K-mart, Pierce & Walker has the same image.

Now-a-days the young players have that attitude in them, If KG won a championship, I'm sure everyone would bash him for that.

KG is the NBA's atittude no doubt about it.....Everyone just targets Kobe because of his Success.

Like I said he's a fierce competitor, and a 3 time champ, he's gonna floss his pride....

that might come off in a negative manner to many , but attitude is part being compettetive whether it's arrogance or being Cocky (IMO)

It's all just being part of the challenge and having fun with it. It does bring out the best in an athlete.

The bottom line is these players have the talent and Skills to back it up, 

it's very entertaining and that what the NBA needs, look at it as that.


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## CoolHandLuke

Just want to let you know, I appreciate the reasonable response. 

However, I'm really not referring to his arrogance or cockiness. That I really don't have a problem with, and I don't think many other people do, either. It's the way he goes about whining that gets me!

I'm not talking about the OVERALL GAME. There are times, for example, a 6-minute period, where several calls are going the Lakers' way. Shaq is a crafty enough verteran to know that. That's why there are times that he just shuts up. Kobe, on the other hand, doesn't know when the right time to complain is, and when the right time to stay quiet is. That's why so many fans of other teams dislike him. I'm not talking about what the Lakers are perceived as, I'm not talking about expecting star treatment, and I'm not talking about occasional miscues. I'm talking about small periods of time where Kobe doesn't have enough sense to know when to keep his mouth shut. I'm not talking about an entire game. I'm not even talking about an entire quarter. And I'm certainly not talking about the Lakers' perception over the course of the season. THAT is why many people dislike Kobe Bryant. 
- don't know whether or not you read that.


Also, I'll conceed, some of it DOES have to do with his success. You could compare it to the Yankees in baseball; nobody but New Yorkers and fairweather fans can stand George Steinbrenner. Why? Because of his success. If he bought all the players in the world and didn't win anything, would anybody care? Well no, probably not. Kobe's arrogance could be compared to Joe Torre trying to take credit for the Yankees' success when everyone knows that it's George with the bucks that's buying the championships. (Well, everybody knows that but Yankee fans!!) George in this situation would be Shaq, and Torre is Kobe, except, Torre doesn't have that arrogance about him. That's why people that dislike the Yankees, like myself, are Torre fans.


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## Chops

I think you have confused optimism with arrogance....


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## CoolHandLuke

I assume that was in response to me? Again, I'll reiterate, I'm not talking about arrogance. That's not the subject I'm referring to when I talk about why Kobe annoys me. And Tracy McGrady and Allen Iverson really have nothing to do with this discussion as neither of them are Kobe Bryant, however, you're right, they both do come off as pretty arrogant, however that's related to this topic.


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## jazzy1

Luke I feel what you're saying about Kobe with the complaining ,I don't see it but Jordan drove me crazy in his Prime with the exact same thing would chop people up defensively and they would say in the 4th quarter he has gotten his 1st foul I'd be like wow and he is complaining about calls, Kobe gets in far more foul trouble than Jordan ever did. I do here alot of people talk about Kobe's cockiness as a reason for why they don't like him so I don't know if you're reasoning for why so many people don't like him is accurate for the majority of Kobe Haters, Man Kobe needs his own board everybody has an opinion on the guy.


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## beautifulkobe

Ok I get what your saying and I respect your opionion even though I dont agree with it.But this is the first time Ive heard someone say they hate kobe cause of him whining about foul calls and not knowing when to shut up.Usually people say arrogance is the key reason why kobe is hated.Atleast you have an original reason.


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## beautifulkobe

Im gonna expand on this a little.I dont get why kobe never goes to the foul line.The refs really dont give him calls.Och that game 5.Anways maybe its because everytime he drives or gets stipped he yells "hey".I think its extremely unfair for him.I dont blame him for whining about calls its cause he never gets them.For all the time kobe drives into traffic and gets mauled you would think he would go to the foul line more often.


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## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> Im gonna expand on this a little.I dont get why kobe never goes to the foul line.The refs really dont give him calls.Och that game 5.Anways maybe its because everytime he drives or gets stipped he yells "hey".I think its extremely unfair for him.I dont blame him for whining about calls its cause he never gets them.For all the time kobe drives into traffic and gets mauled you would think he would go to the foul line more often.


In 2001-2002, Kobe Bryant played 3063 minutes. In that time, he went to the foul line 589 times. That averages out to 1 free throw attempt every 5 minutes and 12 seconds. 

Bryant's 589 free throw attempts were 5th in the NBA, behind only O'Neal, Duncan, Pierce, and Malone. How often do you WANT him to go to the foul line...?


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## The OUTLAW

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> No, I just don't think he is a top 5 player....


Okay maybe he's not a top 5 player but I would definitely put him in the top 10. I still see no reason to dislike him.

Cocky? Aren't all basketball players cocky? I think that you have to be to get that far in athletics.


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## g-dog-rice

This thread is just Kings fans complaining about how Kobe is not better than Webber Stojacovic Bibby... Kobe is in the top three in skill level in the NBA. 1)Shaq 2)Duncan 3)Kobe 4)Kidd 5)t-mac 6)Garnett 7)Pierce 8)Payton 9)Webber 10)Nowitzki


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## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>g-dog-rice</b>!
> This thread is just Kings fans complaining about how Kobe is not better than Webber Stojacovic Bibby... Kobe is in the top three in skill level in the NBA. 1)Shaq 2)Duncan 3)Kobe 4)Kidd 5)t-mac 6)Garnett 7)Pierce 8)Payton 9)Webber 10)Nowitzki


...No, actually it's not. If you would read the posts and not just look at the Kings avatars next to our names, you might see that there were actually some good discussions about Bryant and the NBA in this thread. Some people just don't like Bryant. Nobody here has said that Stojakovic was better than Bryant...you know this site is more than just a Kings/Lakers flame war, right...?


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## DP

> Originally posted by <b>CoolHandLuke</b>!
> Well, excuse me for trying to help beautifulkobe understand more clearly why other fans dislike Kobe Bryant, I thought that was the topic of this thread! What was I thinking, reading the subject line and whatnot..


Where did I say you were off topic ? 




> Oh, and where did 'HARD' foul enter the discussion? I'm not talking about HARD fouls at all...


Oh but I have seen the *whining* you talk about only after those hard fouls that weren't called. We can argue about this till cows come home. There is no objective way to dispute it. So we will just have to agree to disagree.


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## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>DP</b>!
> 
> Oh but I have seen the *whining* you talk about only after those hard fouls that weren't called. We can argue about this till cows come home. There is no objective way to dispute it. So we will just have to agree to disagree.


I agree.


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## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> Cocky? Aren't all basketball players cocky? I think that you have to be to get that far in athletics.


i think you're confusing cockiness with confidence. those are two different things.


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## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>g-dog-rice</b>!
> This thread is just Kings fans complaining about how Kobe is not better than Webber Stojacovic Bibby... Kobe is in the top three in skill level in the NBA. 1)Shaq 2)Duncan 3)Kobe 4)Kidd 5)t-mac 6)Garnett 7)Pierce 8)Payton 9)Webber 10)Nowitzki


um, i'm not a kings fan.


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## g-dog-rice

No Bizzy- you are not a Kings fan- but you support the people who are kings fans...


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## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>g-dog-rice</b>!
> No Bizzy- you are not a Kings fan- but you support the people who are kings fans...


supporting the people who like the kings and supporting the kings are two different things.


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## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>g-dog-rice</b>!
> No Bizzy- you are not a Kings fan- but you support the people who are kings fans...


Why is that so bad...?  :laugh:


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## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> Why is that so bad...?  :laugh:


lol :laugh:


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

Please let this thread die...


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## g-dog-rice

> Originally posted by <b>BizzyRipsta</b>!
> 
> 
> supporting the people who like the kings and supporting the kings are two different things.


I thought mods were supposed to be fair and not totally bias. When you support Kings fans you do not give Laker fans a fair chance.


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## g-dog-rice

> Originally posted by <b>Wilt_The_Stilt</b>!
> Please let this thread die...


I agree Wilt...


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## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>g-dog-rice</b>!
> 
> 
> I thought mods were supposed to be fair and not totally bias. When you support Kings fans you do not give Laker fans a fair chance.


are you implying that i am not fair? 

and besides, i already said that i don't support kings *fans*, but i do support the team. i am a nets fan, but the kings are probably my second favorite team. i have every right to support them.


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## Sean

> Originally posted by <b>g-dog-rice</b>!
> 
> 
> I thought mods were supposed to be fair and not totally bias. When you support Kings fans you do not give Laker fans a fair chance.


Don't worry dog, just because a mod is a supporter of one team over another, it doesn't mean that they are more or less fair towards others. Bizzy may be a Nets fan (I won't hold that against her ), but she is also *very fair* when it comes to moderating. She is one of the best. If you feel she, I, or any other mods are out of line, please PM one of the admins. Now back to what Wilt said...Let this mofo die!

Peace.


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## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>naesdj</b>!
> Bizzy may be a Nets fan (I won't hold that against her )


lol...what's wrong with being a nets fan, huh? 



> but she is also *very fair* when it comes to moderating. She is one of the best.


thank you


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## beautifulkobe

This thread is not ending with this crap.

Kobe is already the best all around player in the league.He has the whole package.Every year hell get better and better.Hell go into the hall of fame no doubt in my mind.

Soon to be 24 and having accomplished what hes accomplished is unbeleivable and he is a role model to all those young kids out there.Kobe is living up to every positive thing people have said about him or praised him with.


Kobe is on a different level then any other player right now and for years to come hell keep showing and proving that.


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## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> This thread is not ending with this crap.


wait a second...define what you mean by "this crap". are you talking about the response right before yours? i'm confused.



> Kobe is already the best all around player in the league.He has the whole package.Every year hell get better and better.Hell go into the hall of fame no doubt in my mind.


that's what i mean by opinion. i think that jason kidd is the best all-around player in the league. am i wrong?



> Soon to be 24 and having accomplished what hes accomplished is unbeleivable and he is a role model to all those young kids out there.Kobe is living up to every positive thing people have said about him or praised him with.


can't argue with that because whatever i'd say would probably be inacurate, since i don't know what kobe does that is positive (off-court), and i'm not gonna say that he does anything negative either because like i said, i don't know what he does off-court.




> Kobe is on a different level then any other player right now and for years to come hell keep showing and proving that.


every player is on a different level from one another. otherwise, the nba would be full of clones.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

> Originally posted by <b>BizzyRipsta</b>!
> 
> every player is on a different level from one another. otherwise, the nba would be full of clones.


What is that supposed to mean??? Of course they are on different levels-and he just said that Kobe is on the top level. And first you said you were not a Kings fan-then you said they are your second favorite team...now please let this monster die..


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## g-dog-rice

Yes Wilt I agree.


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## STING

I'll throw my other two cents in

I don't hate Kobe Bryant, but he pisses me off

I don't like how he gets in fights with players all the time, I don't like how he trash talks (believe me, even Rick Fox and Derek Fisher said he is one of the worse trash talkers) I don't like how alot of Laker fans go around like they ARE Kobe Bryant just becuase they have him on their team.

Like when BeautifulKobe said that Kobe is the only player that can take over a 4th quarter game?

Hmm, how about Paul Pierce? How come he scores more 4th qurter pts that anyone in the league? How come he and Walker led the biggest 4th quarter comeback in playoff history, and you still ignore it and give the credit to Kobe for being the "only" player that can take over a 4th quarter? 

Personally, I don't think hes a top 5 player either, why?

Well, becuase I'd rank these guys above him

Paul Pierce
Shaq
Duncan
Kidd
McGrady
Iverson

Maybe I'd throw him in after them

Another thing, It annoys me how he seems to care more about impressing people than playing the game

I don't hate him, I just don't like him much


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## twolvefan11

i couldnt agree with you more, but pierce in the top 6, maybe top 10, but not top 6, heres mine:
1.shaq
2.duncan
3.kidd
4.mcgrady
5.vince
6.kg


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## g-dog-rice

McGrady has no rings. Iverson has no rings. Kidd has no rings. Kobe can take over the fourth quarter the BEST out of any player in the league- if you deny that you are just a Kobe hater.


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## twolvefan11

i think pierce is more of a 4th quarter player than kobe is. little less than half his points come from the fourth quarter.


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## STING

Why don't you think hes top 6? He was third in scoring this year, hes a great player

But whatever, that's your opinion (You Laker fans might want to take some advice from that   )


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## STING

T-Mac has no shaq, Kidd has no Shaq, Garnett has no shaq, don't even TRY to convince me he would have won those titles with out shaq, its the combo that does it, not kobe.


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## twolvefan11

> Originally posted by <b>STING</b>!
> T-Mac has no shaq, Kidd has no Shaq, Garnett has no shaq, don't even TRY to convince me he would have won those titles with out shaq, its the combo that does it, not kobe.


good point, shaq is unbeatable, unmatchable, and unstoppable, if you put him on the hawks, they would have 3 peated, too. if it was just kobe on the team, they would be lucky to go to the playoffs.


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## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>Wilt_The_Stilt</b>!
> And first you said you were not a Kings fan-then you said they are your second favorite team...


i'm a nets fan...

nothing wrong with having a second fav team though. and having the kings as my second fav team doesn't qualify me as a kings fan.

i don't think i'm the one not letting people have their opinion here, if you know what i mean.


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## John

You never know that Kobe cant win a championship without Shaq. But it's going to take Kobe sometimes to mature as a basketball player. If a young Pippen is added to Kobe, will Kobe lead a championship? Not right now because he still have to go through Shaq, Duncan and others. 

But a young pippen plus Kobe playing toegther for 5-6 years like when Kobe is at the age of 28? I do think Kobe does have a chance to win a championship without Shaq but a Pippen second option type of player must have to be there to team up with Kobe. 

But what Kobe has benifits that other young stars dont have is that Kobe doesnt have to go through the losng process while being the finisher of the game for a CHAMPIONSHIP team, but there is no way a 21 years old man as a clear SCORING option for the team to win a championship. Not even Jordan at the age of 23 even say Pippen was already there!


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## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>twolvefan11</b>!
> 
> good point, shaq is unbeatable, unmatchable, and unstoppable, if you put him on the hawks, they would have 3 peated, too. if it was just kobe on the team, they would be lucky to go to the playoffs.


i assume youre joking (or maybe you just missed the first 7 years of shaq's career).


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## BizzyRipsta

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> i assume youre joking (or maybe you just missed the first 7 years of shaq's career).


yeah, but he wasn't as big as he is now the first few years of his career.


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## STING

Exactly what bizzy said, in the last 3 years shaq has undoubtably the most dominate player in the league


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## DP

So then you would say Shaq has been in his prime since 3(few) years ago ? Isn't that what kflo was trying to imply ?


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## STING

What? This is confusing

:sigh: 

nevermind, forget what I said, I'm not going to even bother trying to figure it out :laugh:


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## shobe42

Why does TMAC always just drop out of these arguments. I never thought pierce was better than him but I'm starting too. And to who ever said it earlier what's so bad about talking trash. MJ was known to talk more trash than anybody.


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## shobe42

*Bizzy*

I don't think that Kidd is the leagues best all around player solely cause of shooting. I'd give Kobe an edge over him because when his team needs him he can do it himself. I think Kidd is the next best all around star after Kobe and he's damn close.
All Around(not Shaq)
1-Kobe
2-Kidd
3-Duncan
4-Pierce
5-KG


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## STING

I am a huge Celtics fan, but based entirely on the fact that T-Mac's entire team sucks, I give him the edge over Pierce, and that is the only reason I think he is just a little better. 

As far as the trash talking goes, Jordan may have been a big one himself, but it never got to the point where other players disrespected him becuase of it. But Kobe just goes too far, Childs didn't back him down and punch him for nothing, Reggie Miller (who is one of the most respected players in the game) didn't just blow up and get in a fight with Kobe for nothing. That is when i start to lose respect for players. I do admit Kobe is an excellent player. He is definitly one of the best. But I do think he is overatted, and I think he is way overhyped sometimes.


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## beautifulkobe

This thread is really a piece of work.I think its kinda funny he has so many haters.Mavs fans call him showbe and drama queen haha.He definitely is the most hated and loved nba player.

I cant and will never call kobe overrated because of the heroics hes done over the past years and what hes accomplished at freakin 23.Its so fun to watch kobe regardless of how he acts on the court.He does things that drop your jaw well mine anyway.

One thing that comes to mind his his three point shooting.I just think its ironic that kobe sucks at shooting threes and misses them constantly throughout the season and only time he usually makes them is in crucial times of the game(hence his heroics in the 4th quarter).

How could you call little kobe overrated when he does these crazy things.

He would be overrated if he only could shoot jump shots and dunk but he has the total package.Thsi kid could do basically anything.


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## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> This thread is really a piece of work.I think its kinda funny he has so many haters.Mavs fans call him showbe and drama queen haha.He definitely is the most hated and loved nba player.


So I'm a hater just because I have a different opinion than you...? Grow up...


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## STING

Calling people haters just because they don't agree with you? Exactly what Wiggum said, grow up. That is so immature, I don't call people haters when they say they don't think Pierce isn't a top five player, I don't call people haters when they say Antione Walker is a show-off. I don't call people haters when they say Allen Iverson is nothing but an egomaniac thug. 

THESE ARE PEOPLE'S OPINIONS, RESPECT THEM, OR ELSE PEOLE WON'T RESPECT YOU.

Thats the bottom line

Speaking of respect, was that last part necessary?- Jemel


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## beautifulkobe

Ok I meant this thread in general.Did I say wiggum is a hater no.Dont put words in my mouth.I do respect peoples opinions.


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## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> Ok I meant this thread in general.Did I say wiggum is a hater no.Dont put words in my mouth.I do respect peoples opinions.


I was using myself as a hypothetical example. Some people think Bryant is a showoff and a drama queen. YOU started this thread, not Kings fans, not Mavericks fans, YOU started it. Don't get mad when people answer the question YOU asked.


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## STING

> *Origanally posted by beautifulkobe*This thread is really a piece of work.I think its kinda funny he has so many haters.


Oh ok, like we are suppose to know you mean someone else, please man.

People aren't "haters" just becuase they don't like a player anyway. I don't like him becuase i think he is an arrogant, disrespectful player that gets into fights becuase of his coughJack***commentscough, but its not like I go off on some "anti-Kobe" thing. When someone posts "Kobe sucks and is the worst player there is", That is when you can call him a hater.


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## g-dog-rice

Tell me how Kobe is arrogant and disrespectful and T-mac is not. Kobe is one of the best players and role-models in the league. :yes:


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## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>g-dog-rice</b>!
> Tell me how Kobe is arrogant and disrespectful and T-mac is not. Kobe is one of the best players and role-models in the league. :yes:


Those who don't like Bryant have explained it already. They don't need to repeat it.


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## shobe42

Theres nothing wrong w/ KB getting excited and flexing his muscles when he makes a huge shot because he is like any other athlete... Happy that his hardwork is paying off. I'm sure making a game winning shot is exilirating. And hes just letting the excitement out. For being put in the spotlight, Kobes cleancut, has a good work ethic and is great at what he does and I feel that makes him a role model.


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## jimmy

I know why I don't like him. He acts, walks, and talks like Michael Jordan, and he isn't Michael Jordan. He's a great player, so why doesn't he find his own identity. He's not ten years old anymore.


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## STING

lol, JAF311 hit part of it right on the head, there are so many reasons, read the thread and you'll know at least some of them :laugh:


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## Jawold

Interesting Thread. Some of you believe you know what makes people a Kobe hater but the interesting thing is that alot of those same attributes apply to Shaq.

-Cocky, Winner, etc.

However I believe it is more than that. Kobe just doesn't have that fun-loving attitude that Shaq has. He is much more serious in how he holds himself. You won't see him breaking down doors, snorting stuff up his nose, or beating up anybody. For that I respect him although I have noticed others would prefer if he wasn't so serious all the time.

I hate the Lakers, especially Shaq and all the no call fouls he committs. But I do respect Kobe for the above mentioned characteristics and the way ne doesn't need to be bailed out by the refs to dominate. He is a true class act and unfortunately the youth of today would prefer to follow someone like Iverson.


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## beautifulkobe

Fine I respect your opionion jawold but to me kobe is just very focused,mature and very private.Kobe acts like hes 30.Im glad he is not holding people up with guns,beating his wife etc.Thats what makes him a good role model and as oyu said a class act.


Im not ognna bother with jaf311 its not even worth my time.


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## Wiggum

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> Fine I respect your opionion jawold but to me kobe is just very focused,mature and very private.Kobe acts like hes 30.Im glad he is not holding people up with guns,beating his wife etc.Thats what makes him a good role model and as oyu said a class act.
> 
> 
> Im not ognna bother with jaf311 its not even worth my time.


You don't respect a basketball player just because he doesn't beat his wife and doesn't shoot people...shockingly, most of the people I know don't beat their wives nor do they shoot people... 

Your role models are people like your parents...Come on, let's put this in perspective...


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## Jamel Irief

If you guys can't discuss the topic without getting emotional towards other posters I will have to lock this thread. Those of you that dislike Kobe, you said your piece, do you really need to keep repeating yourselves?


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> No, I just don't think he is a top 5 player....


he's top five alright; he may even be number one!


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## IV

*Everyone doesnt hate Kobe*

Everyone doesnt hate Kobe. But I do think he is the most envied player in the NBA. It has everything to do with his success,and the constant comparrisions to MJ. It would seem as though he is hated by many but he is always one of the top three vote getters in the allstar game. that says there are even more people who love him.


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## Pinball

I think Kobe is definately a top 5 player but there is no reason to jump down someone's throat just because they don't agree with you. They see Shaq and come to the conclusion that Kobe has it easier than guys like TMac and Vince. And they a right to a degree. Shaq is usually double and triple teamed and that leaves Kobe one on one. TMac and Vince always draw a couple of defenders and have to struggle just to get a shot off. That being said, I still think Kobe could easily score 35 points a night taking as many shots as AI does. He takes better shots and shoots a much higher percentage. Even w/o Shaq he could definately shoot better than 40%. That is my opinion. Guys like KC and Sting don't agree with that opinion but it doesn't make them wrong. You've gotta learn to deal with it.


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## STING

Jemel, you have no right to blame it on the people who don't like kobe, the kobe lovers argue with us, so we DO have the right to reply, I don't care if you're a laker fan, it isn't right. And this is not getting too "emotional" It is a good topic, and I think you should keep it here.

lmao at what wiggum said BTW


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## OZZY

*Reasons why I Hate Kobe Bryant*

(This is my view on the subject, posted off of my Why I hate Kobe Bryant post)

*****About the Reggie Miller insident. 
Well I just want to say, don't think that NBA players would not fight Kobe, tons of the probably want to pound the crap out of him during the game, or at least get in his face. And if you say that is not true, well sticking with the Lakers theme, ton's of ballers would go "RICK FOX" on him any day.
"RICK FOX", what is that? if you are wondering, well it was in the 1997 playoffs I believe when Rick Fox got into a fight with someone on the other team in ever single series during the playoffs. Don't ask me why but he did, but Kobe could get some of that same treatment in the playoffs, but again no player would ever want to piss off the biggest guy in the league, just ask Brad Miller!!!

*****All Star Game
I would like to see Kobe fight his own battles once, and I hate the way he plays. He just ekes around like a little snake, he doesn't play with much physical force, he acts like he wants the refs to bail him out in the post etc and going to the hoop. Be a man and take it strong, you could not see this any clearer than in the All-Star game. He was playing that like it was a real game, I love competitors and Kobe is one, but come' on, don't shoot a damn 15 foot jump shot on a break in the All-Star game! And when you dunk bend the rim once, and when you can dunk don't freaking lye it in the hoop! Also it would be nice to not shoot 30 damn shots, that little display in the All-Star game I think


*****Main reason Kobe Bryant is not respected by most, Shaquille O'Neal is on his team. 
Why??????
Remember Penny Hardaway on Orlando, great talent concidered the best thing in basketball since Michael Jordan, (Just like Kobe is now!) Penny looked like he could do it all on the court (Just like Kobe is now!) He could dribble, pass, run the PG, was 6-7, quick, athletic, could lead a team and make plays for others (Just like Kobe is now!) Was going to be the next super star and dominate the NBA (Just like Kobe is now!)

To me that is way to close, both players played with Shaq and both looked like they had the NBA in their hand. Now Bryant is a little more athletic and clutch, and probably is more competitive. But both of there games are the same when Shaq is on there team. And Penny would have won a title with Shaq if he didn't leave so don't give me that story. I think that is alittle to close, in a bad way! Another reason why Bryant is not that popular, what is to say he won't turn out the way Penny did, yeah Penny got injured on the Suns but his career when down hill after Shaq left. He did have a 50 50 back to back game in the playoffs but after that down it went.

******ego
And please take a foul and don't look and cry to the ref, and if you want to be a "BAD A$$" NBA baller, start out that way. Don't come in and change you image from a McDonalds good boy to a punk street baller, because it doesn't work. And he is all goody goody with the media and that gets him some fans, oh he is a nice well rounded NBA player, he speaks Italian, who cares!!!


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> he's top five alright; he may even be number one!


That is your opinion. I have my own, and Kobe isn't top 5 in mine....


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## jazzy1

THERE'S TOO MANY POSITIVES AROUND KOBE THATS WHY PEOPLE DISLIKE HIM,he's top five or at least thats what the EXPERTS THINK HE WAS ALL NBA FIRST TEAM WASN'T HE that is a list of the top 5 players in the league so there's your proof right there, who was it

Shaq
Kobe
Tmac
JKidd
Duncan

I'd say they were the top 5 players, you put them in order.


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## GB

I'm coming in late here, but it's pretty obvious to me that most NBA players (and fans) that dislike Kobe do so because he's swaggering, cocky, and arrogant. It's probably a small population of the NBA that dislikes him because he isn't 'keeping it real'.

Shaq, Hill, Jordan, Barkley---none of these guys espoused the street credo either and were well-liked and well-respected by their peers.

As for doing it on his own---that is one of the sillier arguments out there. Individuals don't win rings---teams do. It wasn't until he got Pip, Grant, and Cartwright that MJ got some rings. Kobe came into a great situation for himself, and it's one that every great individual player would like to be in. T-Mac would choose to play with Shaq over Grant Hill if he had the choice. Carter would choose Shaq over Antonio Davis. I bet Cwebb wouldn't shed a tear if Shaq came to Sac-town in a trade. When you play ball, do you pick 4 scrubs for your team so you can shine, or do you pick 4 people that will help you knock off the team on the court?

Kobe will put up the same points he does now when Shaq is gone. We've seen him do it with Shaq on and off the court. But whether that team wins will be determined, not by Kobe alone, but by who is on _that team_.

Kobes a stud. I'd give up anyone on my team to have him (but I'd try hard to make sure Curry wasn't one of the players going out.  )


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## <<<D>>>

*Re: Everyone doesnt hate Kobe*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> Everyone doesnt hate Kobe. But I do think he is the most envied player in the NBA. It has everything to do with his success,and the constant comparrisions to MJ. It would seem as though he is hated by many but he is always one of the top three vote getters in the allstar game. that says there are even more people who love him.




I think all the Kobe Haters would admit, if they had him on their favorite NBA team, they wouldn't be close to even think about bashing him up, They'd feel more of how we Kobe fans feel now.

Like Don Nelson said during the All-Star game last year...
" They only Boo you cause they wished they had you "

All jealousy.......too much of it, Kobe is a true winner, for what he has Fulfilled & Accomplished in the NBA at his age and Comments, Thoughts & Opinions will not change any of that...
Take it or Leave it & keep yappin away!!

:grinning:


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## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> That is your opinion. I have my own, and Kobe isn't top 5 in mine....


I bet C-Webb, Peja or Bibby are in your top 5 though.:yes:


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## Louie

Well of course most everybody would love him if he was on their favorite team, but then again what great player wouldn't you love if he was on your favorite team? Bulls fans, after hating Dennis Rodman for years, embraced him when he joined the team in 95. The best way to measure how much a player is respected is by guaging how people with no particular bias toward any team react to him.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!
> 
> 
> I bet C-Webb, Peja or Bibby are in your top 5 though.:yes:


Actually, no.


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## STING

lol, KC

Ok, can people stop this stupid generalization "haters". I don't know when I got branded a "hater", but its totally not true. I don't LIKE Kobe. Don't call me a hater, a hater is a word commonly used for racist or predjudice people, so why are you labeling the people that don't like a certain player becuase of some of his character flaws, haters???


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## BizzyRipsta

*Re: Re: Everyone doesnt hate Kobe*



> Originally posted by <b><<<D>>></b>!
> I think all the Kobe Haters would admit, if they had him on their favorite NBA team, they wouldn't be close to even think about bashing him up, They'd feel more of how we Kobe fans feel now.


actually, if kobe played for the nets, i wouldn't really change my opinion of him (as in my opinion of him being arrogant).


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## Ron

Enough is enough. For those who wish to discuss this guy, please go to the NBA forum and bash him there.

There is a thread that is stuck at the top of the forum, and I intend to keep it there forever.

It will probably be the longest thread in the history of this board.


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