# Grunwald is out today. (No April fools)



## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

He is gone. Fan Radio report. Presser to come.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> He is gone. Fan Radio report. Presser to come.


MLSE had to do it fans need answers and immediate ones after last nights "mailed-in" effort.

Peddie likely next - more talk of beaston taking over

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...556&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

We need a major shake up in managment and coaching. i hope we can get guys who can get the job done right and have knowledge of the game.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

I think the entire front office needs purging from Peddie to Zuff. 

Beeston on top. He hires a Prez of Ball ops. Prez hires GM. They blow things up and hire a new coach.

I think this spells the end for all players except Bosh somewhere in the next 24 months. 

I don't know how they can appease the Vince-fan-not-basketball-fan because any good guy that comes in will blow this thing up.

See Abdur-Rahim, twice. Whoever it is will need to rebuild in his, not GG's vision.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

Richard Peddie 1PM Major announcement.

Who is our new GM? Doc Rivers?

doug Smith thinks KO is done now too.


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## VinceCarter15 (Oct 21, 2003)

EVERYONE saw this coming so it isnt really much of a shock...but i didnt think theyd do it till the end of the season...I guess they dont feel what hes doing will even get us close to a playoff berth


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

Former Detroit Pistons GM Jack McCloskey is expected to take over the general managerial duties.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

HERE IS THE STORY


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

Interesting quote I found "Jack McCloskey understood the value he was giving away when he gave up vets like Bob McAdoo and Kelly Tripucka..." in order to build a future powerhouse. (Pistons old dynasty)

he also has the (familiar) nickname "trader jack". He is supposedly a 'savvy' judge of college talent. 

he is also supposedly an incredible hard-case. Like Oneil. I think he probably admires Oneil to be honest, and that isn't good news IMO.


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

lol, Isiah Thomas says "I was afraid of Jack. He was a tough guy"

McCloskey made 43 trades in his 13 seasons with Detroit. wow(not 43 players traded, 43 actual trades. Thats crazy)


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Goku</b>!
> Interesting quote I found "Jack McCloskey understood the value he was giving away when he gave up vets like Bob McAdoo and Kelly Tripucka..." in order to build a future powerhouse. (Pistons old dynasty)
> 
> he also has the (familiar) nickname "trader jack". He is supposedly a 'savvy' judge of college talent.
> ...


Well at least they'll get along and have a comperable outlook on the pieces needed for the team. As opposed to GG getting players he liked, that KO wouldn't play.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Numbed One</b>!
> Former Detroit Pistons GM Jack McCloskey is expected to take over the general managerial duties.


Interim. Remeber that trades were easier before the recent CBAs.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

Kind of shocked me to hear that he got fired now. I would have thought end of season. :yes:


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

anyone have info on his NBA profile as a GM?


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

are yall happy now


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> Interum. Remeber that trades were easier before the recent CBAs.


yeah good point.

I think you might get your wish for blowing this thing up though. McCloskey has TONNES of credibility. If anyone has the minerals to trade Vince, this guy does.

I wonder if Tannenbaum would hire his own guy. Or if he even can. Peddie might be sticking with us, if he's the one who hired Jack.


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>CrookedJ</b>!
> 
> 
> Well at least they'll get along and have a comperable outlook on the pieces needed for the team. As opposed to GG getting players he liked, that KO wouldn't play.


yeah, good point. 

Jack will probably bring his own guy in anyways, but he might give Oneil next year as a chance to prove himself. 

Thats only if he doesn't blow it up. If he does, I think he has already been in talks with Tanenbaum for some time, and has a plan in place which he sold to MLSE. Which Oneil would not be part of.


edit: Peddie just said Jack has worked as a long time consultant for the Raps. I'm guessing he sold them on a way to blow this puppy up.

edit: I didn't notice the 'interum' label, thought we actually hired McCloskely. I really hope we do.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

I don't see why they didn't wait 'til the season was over and let GG's contract run out on its own. I agree that GG had to go, but the guy's been w/ the club for all these yrs, the least you can do is give him the little respect he deserves.
And what's w/ the Raps bringing in ex-Pistons guys?


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

From Peddie's presser, I gather that they have no vision for this team. Ie the future of all assets Vince, Bosh et al will be in the hands of the new GM and used toward building his vision. 

The way he used the words "plateau" several times for this team tells me that there are no untouchables.

In other words, the upper management seemingly will not mandate that the new GM keep anyone.


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

Peddie says Jack isn't even a consideration. Damn. He sounded like a great GM. lol,I didn't realize he was 70.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Yao Mania</b>!
> I don't see why they didn't wait 'til the season was over and let GG's contract run out on its own. I agree that GG had to go, but the guy's been w/ the club for all these yrs, the least you can do is give him the little respect he deserves.
> And what's w/ the Raps bringing in ex-Pistons guys?


Mcloskey has no link to KO.
__________

I understand your concern, but....... in essence, he was given that respect. 

They did not wait because they need to find a GM before the draft and did not want to search while GG was still in power.

If you wait 'til the season is over, you have very little time to set your plan before the draft.

And if what I sense will actually happen, this will be the most interesting Toronto Raptor Draft in history. Lots of movement.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

Glen to address the media at 3PM



on a side note they said this desion was made with glen a while back they were just waiting for the right day to tell the media


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Peddie: "The new GM will have the ultimate decision with Vince."


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## ElevatorMan (Jan 8, 2004)

Maybe Vince will play like the MVP that he is capable of being... if Vicne is looking over his shoulder then maybe he will have that fire that he used to have.... i think it was inevitable that GG get fired... KO is gone as well... HELLO Doc Rivers


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ElevatorMan</b>!
> Maybe Vince will play like the MVP that he is capable of being... if Vicne is looking over his shoulder then maybe he will have that fire that he used to have.... i think it was inevitable that GG get fired... KO is gone as well... HELLO Doc Rivers


I don't think it matters how good he plays. His supporting cast is so flawed as a team and individually. He has been playing very well of late and it has not made a difference.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ElevatorMan</b>!
> Maybe Vince will play like the MVP that he is capable of being... if Vicne is looking over his shoulder then maybe he will have that fire that he used to have.... i think it was inevitable that GG get fired... KO is gone as well... HELLO Doc Rivers


I feel scoot & o'brian are both better than rivers


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## hubuki (Mar 8, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Yao Mania</b>!
> I don't see why they didn't wait 'til the season was over and let GG's contract run out on its own. I agree that GG had to go, but the guy's been w/ the club for all these yrs, the least you can do is give him the little respect he deserves.
> And what's w/ the Raps bringing in ex-Pistons guys?


gm is not easy to do, you don't just sit down and wait for the lottery draft. The working is being done right now. GM are reviewing prospect in the draft. This is the adult world, I don't think you need to repect this kind of stuff.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

shrewd move to do it today. gives new management a chance to hire the right man, gives the right man the chance to hire the right scouts, gives the right scouts the chance to find the right draft pick, gives the players the chance to think about their contributions/job insecurity _before_ they hit the beach, etc..

the only possible drawback to dropping glen before the offseason is the potential for the team to enjoy a honeymoon period before they secure the most promising lottery slot. i know that the "honeymoon" notion is related more to new coaches and players, but there's that possibility that the team will react positively to this news (for whatever reason), which may ultimately lead to improved performance on the court from day one (i.e. tomorrow). i don't want that... and we can't have that. 

i mean, to be perfectly honest, i'm surprised that we even lost yesterday's game- it was probably our most favorable result all year!  i've always thought this team gets the worst of every world, losing all games they need to win and winning all games they need to lose. i wouldn't at all be surprised to see them string together 4 or 5 consecutive wins in the wake of being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs (which should happen soon). 

our team culture is pathetic, and that kind of outcome would be apropos. today's news may be conducive to further embarrassment or it may not be. time will tell.

but suffice it to say that with GG's firing, the _complacency era_ in raptors basketball may be nearing its end. i'm happy to see that this team isn't just talking the talk, but also walking the walk. i'm happy to see them acknowledge that our underachievement won't just correct itself, and that the team needs real changes in order to right the ship. 

i've said it before but i'll say it again: this season has been a disaster in every way- EVERY way. to this point, there hasn't been one thing to write home about, not one reason to get the slightest bit excited about the present- or the future. i submit to anyone reading that this team hasn't had one cherishable memory all year.

think about it: even our wins have felt more like non-losses. we haven't upset any team (save for jersey in game 1) and have continued to french kiss rock bottom failure with such regularity that we must've already set futility records the world over. this team has not had the passion it advertises, it has had the look of a depressed in-patient more often than not, has rarely gotten excited (after all, our coach doesn't believe in getting excited- it's not "professional", while spite, stubbornness and lamp-breaking _are_ professional and not worthy of shame or regret) and has had some of its more talented pieces ride the pine while the team (and the fans) have had to endure said failure on a recurrent basis.

on the court, this team hasn't adapted in any way- it still plays man to man defense exclusively while squads like golden state (as we saw last night) smother our attack with the most basic zone schemes ever conceived. the players we play are almost always the same- we could lose 25 games by 50+ points and moiso and lamond would still sit on the bench waiting their turn. i'm not saying that changing things up would bring success- not at all. it's just that it has to be TRIED. like shannon hoon said, "when life is hard, you have to change." amen. 

have we improved at all? in any way? injury, you say? what injury? jalen rose? vince missing ~15 games? 

didn't philadelphia just beat golden state (the night before last) WITHOUT allen iverson (in my opinion, a more valuable player for their team than vince for ours)? hadn't golden state won 7 in a row heading _into_ that game? aren't milwaukee and utah, for example, overachieving admirably? is it too much to ask for this team to just _occasionally_ win the game it _should_ lose? after all, we lose many games we should _win_- i'd like to think the reverse should be true from time to time... just from time to time...

it simply hasn't been.

have we ended ANYONE'S winning streak of 3 games or more all year? has that happened even once? 

what has this team done? how has it improved in any way? some would put forth the idea of being a better defensive team and, well, i can't tell you how much i disagree with that. statistics do not comprehensively prove quality. we give up low ppg totals because, well, we play the slowest game in the league- bar none. we walk the ball up the floor on every possession (no exaggeration there, since we can't run even if we wanted to) and eat 20+ seconds of the shot clock on almost every posssession. that time inevitably comes off the clock in chunks, and our opponents just don't have the same amount of time (in aggregate) to load up on the scoresheet.

in short, the numbers need to be contextualized before they _mean_ anything or can be used to defend policy/behavior. 

also, i personally can't remember many (any?) defensive STOPS our team has made all year when the chips were down. when other teams WANT to score on us, they take apart our self-proclaimed defensive philosophies in a timely, precise and efficient (effortless?) manner. dermarr johnson, avery johnson and pretty much every johnson in the league seem to spotlight their star quality against our squad- oh wait...

but they are bona fide bench players who can be rendered at least _serviceable_- oh wait- at least _some_ of the time- oh wait...

the more i think about it, the more it seems our team has not improved (either individually or collectively) all season. we are underachievers by nature, by habit, and while the "fit" isn't there for many of these players/coaches, there's a lot MORE that isn't there, either. i'm satisfied that this team has today at least chosen to make one significant change on the corporate ladder, and am hoping that the buck doesn't stop there.

i can't think of one fantastic memory that we've enjoyed aside from our first game. at least last year's 24-win team beat minnesota without vince, and sacramento on superbowl sunday. those felt good.

we haven't had anything resembling that kind of modest success all year. our "bad" players haven't developed, our "good" players haven't developed (with the possible exception of vince carter), our defense and offense haven't developed, our acquisitions have offered their best contributions before they knew what they were doing in our much-ballyhoed "system" (cases in point: rod strickland, donyell marshall, dion glover, lonny baxter... even robert archibald), we continue to mail in games in terms of effort (or lack thereof), and we have hardly responded to any significant pressure. i don't even know if chris bosh has really improved from day one to now. 

i mean, he HAS- but at his age, he might've improved anyway. 

blame has to be assigned everywhere. 

peace


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

We need to find a general manager that has some experience.. Who knows what he's doing.. Doc Rivers! :shy:


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Jack is not new blood. He has been an advisor to the Raps since '96. They just showed footage of him in the draft room with GG. Jack was doing all the talking and pointing while GG listened.

The had better hire a new GM soon so the guy will have time to interview new coaches and get rid of KO.

I want our new coach to have a full training camp with our team because there is just no time for practice during the season.

KO backstabbed Glen and the two of them were not even on speaking terms anymore.

KO will never be a head coach in this league again. That rep as a GM killer will follow him everywhere.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

I don't think they'll fire O'Niell.. The only way KO wont be our coach next season is if the new GM fires him.. Then again I could be wrong..


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

Finally 

      :yes: :yes: :yes: :gbanana: :wbanana: :banana: :vbanana: :bbanana: :cbanana: :clap: :clap: :twave: :woot: :greatjob:


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## DINOSAUR (Sep 20, 2003)

Richard Peddie said in an interview that I watched today, that Jack McKulsky (sp?) is only on interim basis and is no way one of the candidates to be the new GM.

He also said that the new GM will be the one who decides if O'neil stays or not.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Yeah.. That's good... We need an experienced GM.. No way someone new.. We need someone who knows what they are doing .. Then we can go from evaluating the rest of the team from there.. But there's still time.. They will probably announce the new manager the week after the season comes to an end..


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jcintosun911</b>!
> Yeah.. That's good... We need an experienced GM.. No way someone new.. We need someone who knows what they are doing .. Then we can go from evaluating the rest of the team from there.. But there's still time.. They will probably announce the new manager the week after the season comes to an end..


Jack was GM for the Pistons before their 2 championship years. He is not new and has plenty of experience. That said, he will only help in the process to find a new GM.

If Doc takes anything it will probably be Atlanta. He may get a dual role there. His family is there. His kid is playing ball there and he wants to be close.


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

if we're gonna hire Doc, hire him as Coach not as GM. He is a horrible talent evaluater.


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## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

Next move: Trade Vince Carter.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Slasher</b>!
> Next move: Trade Vince Carter.


:nonono:


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

thank god


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

Anyone listened to the FAN590?

They were interviewing GG, and he stated KO and him had sum major issues.

GG felt some of the bench players should be getting playing time, but KO dissagreed. It was one of the big problems between KO and GG.

They also never talked much.


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## DINOSAUR (Sep 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> Anyone listened to the FAN590?
> 
> They were interviewing GG, and he stated KO and him had sum major issues.
> ...


You see. GG has some common sense. When KO is the moron.
I feel ashamed that such a nice guy got fired, when this idiot doesn't know what he's doing.

But ya it's been awhile and it's time for a change so I can where there coming from with the gg situation.


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## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DINOSAUR</b>!
> 
> 
> You see. GG has some common sense. When KO is the moron.
> ...


This isn't a nice man's business. It comes down to the fact if you can or cannot get the job done by organizing a winning ball club. Glen didn't do that, and he got the boot.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Demote O'Niel bring in Doc to run the show:yes: :yes: :yes:


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DINOSAUR</b>!
> 
> 
> You see. GG has some common sense. When KO is the moron.
> ...


Hey before you start calling peopel idiots know what your talking about.. Against the Knicks we had what 6 bench points? Yes we only played 7 players.. The players were really tired.. Next game: Memphis.. We played 11 players.. 6 Bench players combined to score 10 points.. Wow big difference.. It's not KO's fault.. And about the post about demoting KO .. I highly doubt he would like to be demoted to an assistant coaching job of a non playoff team.. Why would he leave Detroit in the first place? To hide in the shadows sitting beside Jay Triano?


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## DINOSAUR (Sep 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jcintosun911</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey before you start calling peopel idiots know what your talking about.. Against the Knicks we had what 6 bench points? Yes we only played 7 players.. The players were really tired.. Next game: Memphis.. We played 11 players.. 6 Bench players combined to score 10 points.. Wow big difference.. It's not KO's fault.. And about the post about demoting KO .. I highly doubt he would like to be demoted to an assistant coaching job of a non playoff team.. Why would he leave Detroit in the first place? To hide in the shadows sitting beside Jay Triano?


Ya but the reason the bench isn't scoring or contributing much is because KO hasn't played them all season, and now they have no confidence and are cold cause they haven't been in game situations very often.

Yes maybe our bench does suck (which I think is true), but how can you even try to play good when you barely play. Think about not playing for 5 months and then going to play at the park with your friends, are you gonna be hitting lots of shots?

So to an extent yes it is KO's fault.

KO was an assistant before and he can be an assistant again. It's not like he's gonna be getting any more head coaching positions anytime soon.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

basicly it is everyone's fault execpt the players i mean seriously why hasnt that damn mop boy been fired yet???


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## DINOSAUR (Sep 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Slasher</b>!
> 
> 
> This isn't a nice man's business. It comes down to the fact if you can or cannot get the job done by organizing a winning ball club. Glen didn't do that, and he got the boot.


I know, I agree with firing Glen, but what Im saying is that even he saw that KO was butchering the bench. And he knew that they should get more pt. While KO is to stubborn to listen.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DINOSAUR</b>!
> 
> 
> Ya but the reason the bench isn't scoring or contributing much is because KO hasn't played them all season, and now they have no confidence and are cold cause they haven't been in game situations very often.
> ...


   
You just contradicted your own argument. If KO needs to win he's gonna play the guys who actually have talent. His job was to get this team to win, not bring along raw talent.


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## DINOSAUR (Sep 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> You just contradicted your own argument. If KO needs to win he's gonna play the guys who actually have talent. His job was to get this team to win, not bring along raw talent.


But if he didn't bury some guys like Moiso and Murray maybe they would of played decent and we would of won more games. You got to have trust in your player right?


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## hubuki (Mar 8, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Slasher</b>!
> Next move: Trade Vince Carter.


:uhoh:


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DINOSAUR</b>!
> 
> 
> But if he didn't bury some guys like Moiso and Murray maybe they would of played decent and we would of won more games. You got to have trust in your player right?


No you don't. Who is the only patch job acquisition that has played. Strick. Why? He is not dumb. He is halfway competent. He is positionally sound on D if not laterally quick. He does not take dumb shots. If you can't do these basic things you should not be in the league. KO has no loyalty to him. He just deserves to play relative to others on the team. The others don't.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>hubuki</b>!
> 
> 
> :uhoh:


You're right. Let's wait until we're in the lottery again next year! :yes:


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

This move was for the fans, and I hope their are more to come...
Good or Bad, things will be very different next season

To all Raptors fans...the real drama begins in 8 games, I personally have never been as excited about the Raptors in an offseason as I will be this year

I hope Vince stays and the new GM can surround him with a PG and C to really complement his game, and open up the court for him so he does not have to see triple teams everytime he touches the ball


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>TRON</b>!
> I hope Vince stays and the new GM can surround him with a PG and C to really complement his game, and open up the court for him so he does not have to see triple teams everytime he touches the ball


I think we would all like that in an ideal world. I think it might be impossible. I would love to eat my words.


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## ElevatorMan (Jan 8, 2004)

Now all we need is a smart GM that h=will hire either Rudy T or byron Scott as head coach


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Guys, Kevin will not be demoted to an assistant. That's never happened before in the NBA (non-interm head coach demoted to assistant) and it certainly won't happen if we are looking at taking the team in a new direction. And it ESPECIALLY won't happen if some of our players aren't getting along with him.

The new GM will probably bring in a new coach and a new assistant coaching crew will be chosen by that coach. The times they are a-changin'.


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

Im listening to the FAN590 right now.

- Leo Rautin felt GG never had full control of the Raptors.

- Felt Lenny Wilkins had too much power over GG.

- He question the Draft Picks.

- He felt injuries were one of the cause's of Raptors downfall. 

- Raptors never had a PG in some time, and was never addressed.

- Feels Raptors need to be re-evaluated, Players, scouts etc.

- Raptors picked up bad habits from Lenny Wilkins. Under Butch Carter, the Raptors had more guidence.

- Antonio Davis quited on this team prior to the Bulls trade.

- JYD really hurt this team cause' he tried to plz the fans.

- Toronto needs tough players. They need toughness, they need a identity. i.e. Oakley, Chris Childs.


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## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

Hellbot did a great sum up of how Grunwald screwed up. Those are the exact reasons he got the royal kick. No surprises here. Kevin O'Neill is possibly next, followed by the so called "franchise player" Vince Carter.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Toronto needs tough players. They need toughness, they need a identity. i.e. Oakley, Chris Childs.


too old


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