# Rockets 48 Magic 27 (no tmac)



## LBJthefuturegoat

Why isn't TMac playing... and with 16 points from Yao (Stro's *****) Houston is blowing out the Magic.


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## JNice

Tmac had a family emergency and Orlando is playing absolutely horrible.

That is the story.


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## hobojoe

Worst half of basketball I've ever seen. Like I said in the Magic forum, the Rockets didn't even play well, the Magic just played horrendous, horrendous basketball. It was hard to watch.


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## Nique21

Well Tracy was out because of some Family Emergency, and a good part of the reason the Magic played horrible had to do with Francis going Trigger Happy in Houston....Some things never change :shy:


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## Cap

That was definitely hard to watch, I'm surprised the Magic played so poorly knowing Tmac wasn't on the court.


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## J Blaze

> Originally posted by <b>Nique21</b>!
> Well Tracy was out because of some Family Emergency, and a good part of the reason the Magic played horrible had to do with Francis going Trigger Happy in Houston....Some things never change :shy:


Yup, blame that horrible Magic play on Francis shooting horribly and scoring 2 pts in the 1st half. Yao had a strong half and everyone followed him. No way you can have an 18+ lead and "not play well". Come on now, give credit to where credit is due.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> That was definitely hard to watch, I'm surprised the Magic played so poorly knowing Tmac wasn't on the court.


Worst half of the season for Orlando by far. They usually score at least 27 in the first quarter, let alone the first half.


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## Nique21

> Originally posted by <b>J Blaze</b>!
> 
> 
> Yup, blame that horrible Magic play on Francis shooting horribly and scoring 2 pts in the 1st half. Yao had a strong half and everyone followed him. No way you can have an 18+ lead and "not play well". Come on now, give credit to where credit is due.


? Actually I am a Rocket fan and I'm not making any excuses for the Magic at all, trust me. But Francis went out in that game pretty emotional considering he was back in Houston and it was no shocker to see him try a little too hard

The Rockets are just flat out the better team, with or without Tracy


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## J Blaze

> Originally posted by <b>Nique21</b>!
> 
> 
> ? Actually I am a Rocket fan and I'm not making any excuses for the Magic at all, trust me. But Francis went out in that game pretty emotional considering he was back in Houston and it was no shocker to see him try a little too hard
> 
> The Rockets are just flat out the better team, with or without Tracy


Yeah, I have watched Franchis his whole career and know that it was emotional for him coming back to Houston but the fact that he forced many shots and scored only 2 pts is a reason the Magic looked so horrible in the 1st half. The posters before me didn't even bring it up so I did. Even said Houston didn't play well, which is incorrect. We shot over 50% in the 1st half but oh well, I'll let people believe what they want. And yeah, I agree with you.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Nique21</b>!
> 
> 
> ? Actually I am a Rocket fan and I'm not making any excuses for the Magic at all, trust me. But Francis went out in that game pretty emotional considering he was back in Houston and it was no shocker to see him try a little too hard
> 
> The Rockets are just flat out the better team, with or without Tracy


I disagree Houston is flat out a better team and I think a lot of other people would as well.


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## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Roger's Cardigan</b>!
> I'm not implying that Houston is better without McGrady, just that Yao can do a decent job of carrying the team and the only way you can call him overrated is if you expected him to be Shaq this year.





> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Roger's Cardigan</b>!
> I was giving a general evaluation of the Rockets when Yao is forced to carry the offensive load. If you want to take stats into account, you can use 82games.com to call Weatherspoon and Padgett our most productive players.
> 
> Players like Sura and Wesley who normally don't look for Yao become more conscious of Yao when Tracy isn't on the court. There is more movement from the guards and on occassion Howard or Sura will cut to the basket. 82games.com is a statistical represenation, which takes into account garbage time and other unnecessary situations. I'm more interested in the activity displayed when Yao is the number 1 option because of the attention he gathers. I don't see how any player who certain teams double on every posession of the game (New Jersey the most recent example, did not allow Yao to isolate) is overrated. Just having him on the floor changes the dynamic of the game.
> 
> On the defensive end there isn't a stat for shots altered or the "team rebounding" concept Yao has become so good at.
> 
> The biggest problem with these Tracy off the court stats is that he plays 85% of the game, so it's not a thorough assessment. In this case I would refer to the 2 games he missed, where Yao averaged 28.5 ppg. Unfortunately no one else could get anything going, and the Rockets lost both games. These are cases where Yao has played very well but the statistical representation won't favor him.


Pretty ironic I just posted this yesterday. Sucks to those who say Yao is overrated, the fact is Houston can compete with him as their only option (close, tough losses to Minnesota and LA). Orlando was off on all accounts today, but it's not like Houston was doing anything special in the 2nd half when Sura and Strickland almost shot Orlando back into the game. I love Sura and all, but I'd like to see him pass the ball to Yao just ONCE on the pick and pop.


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## 777

lol, as usual, no love for Yao.


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## The_Franchise

Right now rumor is that TMac's dad passed away. Nothing official, though.


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## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Roger's Cardigan</b>!
> Right now rumor is that TMac's dad passed away. Nothing official, though.


Ah man, I hope not.


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## DuMa

> Originally posted by <b>777</b>!
> lol, as usual, no love for Yao.


Stro's ***** was actually efficient today


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## RP McMurphy

Yao actually had a pretty nice rejection of Swift in that game, but all anyone remembers is the dunk. I guess a lot of fans would prefer a player who just gets out of the way, to a player who steps up and challenges shots, because if you challenge shots, you're going to get dunked on from time to time.


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## shoprite

Yao rejected Swift twice in that game.


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## JT

*thats his job*



> Originally posted by <b>shoprite</b>!
> Yao rejected Swift twice in that game.


he's 7'6", he's supposed to be doing stuff like that.


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## Cambridgeshire

Point being that you all emphasize the one dunk on Yao, yet the two blocks BY Yao on Stro actually had the bigger influence on the game.


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## MightyReds2020

*Re: thats his job*



> Originally posted by <b>sherako</b>!
> 
> 
> he's 7'6", he's supposed to be doing stuff like that.


Same thing as: "Oliver Miller is 350 pounds, he's supposed to be dominating the paint"

Get a clue!


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## JT

*Re: Re: thats his job*



> Originally posted by <b>MightyReds2020</b>!
> Same thing as: "Oliver Miller is 350 pounds, he's supposed to be dominating the paint"
> 
> Get a clue!


no, its not the same at all. and why would i try to get clue, i already have the game at my house.


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## Ballscientist

it would be close game last night if T-Mac played for Magic.


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## Ballscientist

Rockets don't even use the 3 biggest contracts - Mac, Taylor and Spoon.


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## shoprite

*Re: thats his job*



> Originally posted by <b>sherako</b>!
> 
> 
> he's 7'6", he's supposed to be doing stuff like that.


See? Double standards. 

By the same logic, Stro can jump out of roof, he's supposed to dunk on anybody.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> it would be close game last night if T-Mac played for Magic.


No, it would be close if Orlando hadn't had its worst scoring first-half in franchise history. It happens.


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## On Thre3

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> No, it would be close if Orlando hadn't had its worst scoring first-half in franchise history. It happens.


im sorry , no offense but thats just a flat out an excuse


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>On Thre3</b>!
> 
> 
> im sorry , no offense but thats just a flat out an excuse


Explain how that is an excuse in response to the post I was quoting? So you think a 27 point half for Orlando is in any way normal? Teams have terrible nights sometimes. It happens.


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## J Blaze

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Explain how that is an excuse in response to the post I was quoting? So you think a 27 point half for Orlando is in any way normal? Teams have terrible nights sometimes. It happens.


I can explain it in some degree. How about maybe it is because Houston is the 3rd best Defensive team in the NBA? Maybe Houston had _a little_ to do with Orlando's bad first half? Point is maybe, just maybe, Houston had something to do with that and not just "Orlando just had a bad half". Like I said, look at the whole picture.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>J Blaze</b>!
> 
> 
> I can explain it in some degree. How about maybe it is because Houston is the 3rd best Defensive team in the NBA? Maybe Houston had _a little_ to do with Orlando's bad first half? Point is maybe, just maybe, Houston had something to do with that and not just "Orlando just had a bad half". Like I said, look at the whole picture.


No. Houston might be a good defensive team, but San Antonio is a better defensive team and Orlando had no problem scoring against them. Teams just don't regularly have the worst scoring first half in franchise history. Not saying Houston had nothing to do with it, but it was pretty obvious that Orlando was completely off the first half. The only guy who shot 50% was Dwight Howard, hitting 1 of his 2 shots, everyone else was far below 50%.


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## Nique21

Denial....It's what's for Dinner


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## JT

*jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>Nique21</b>!
> Denial....It's what's for Dinner


ultimately, i see houston getting their spot taken by the wolves which means no playoffs, and i see orlando just stumbling in. who will be in denial then? sure won't be jnice.


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## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Ah man, I hope not.


Turns out McGrady missed the game because the mother of his child had to be rushed to the hospital. Dehydrated and passed out.


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## .fusion.

i didn't watch the game.

did francis get booed by the crowd the same way mcgrady did in orlando?


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## J Blaze

> Originally posted by <b>.fusion.</b>!
> i didn't watch the game.
> 
> did francis get booed by the crowd the same way mcgrady did in orlando?


He was booed by some fans in the upper deck. When he was announced in the starting lineup, he got a very nice round of applause, maybe even a stand o but I'm not sure about the ovation. We were much more classy than the Orlando fans, that's for sure.


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## J Blaze

*Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>sherako</b>!
> 
> 
> ultimately, i see houston getting their spot taken by the wolves which means no playoffs, and i see orlando just stumbling in. who will be in denial then? sure won't be jnice.


Since we're into predictions, I believe the Lakers will start to falter soon and fall behind us. We'll move up to at least the 7th spot. And I *"ultimately"* believe we can catch Memphis too with how we're playing right now. Even if Orlando stumbles in, it's a testament to how weak the East still is not to who is the better team. 2-0 for Houston basicly says that but oh well.


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## J Blaze

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> No. Houston might be a good defensive team, but San Antonio is a better defensive team and Orlando had no problem scoring against them. Teams just don't regularly have the worst scoring first half in franchise history. Not saying Houston had nothing to do with it, but it was pretty obvious that Orlando was completely off the first half. The only guy who shot 50% was Dwight Howard, hitting 1 of his 2 shots, everyone else was far below 50%.


Yeah, well you inadvertently agreed with what I'm saying to a degree. Houston's defense did have _at least a little_ to do with the Magic's horrible first half. It made a big difference but as long as you admit something. This is the same team that held the Spurs to 80 and 67 pts respectively. The same Spurs that scored 107 and 123 2 out of their last 3 games. Continue to deny it all you want.


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## Nique21

*Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>sherako</b>!
> 
> 
> ultimately, i see houston getting their spot taken by the wolves which means no playoffs, and i see orlando just stumbling in. who will be in denial then? sure won't be jnice.


Wow, Look who's talking....a Laker fan :laugh: 

Also I just LOVED how you totally tried to throw this off topic and try your best to make a couple of Rocket fans angry, when all I was doing was sitting in my chair with the ROFFLES for about a good 15 minutes. This has to do with the Magic fans running their mouths about how much better they were than the Rockets and that they got the better end of the deal, and now Magic fans are making excuses after they got defeated twice in one week by the Rockets (One of those games without McGrady). Looks like they can't swallow what they chewed


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## JNice

*Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>J Blaze</b>!
> 2-0 for Houston basicly says that but oh well.


Why do people use this logic? So Houston beats Orlando twice so Houston is better than Orlando? Well, Orlando has split two games with San Antonio (nearly winning both), so is Orlando better than San Antonio? Obviously not. 

I'd like one of these defensive Houston fans to go back and point out what I said to get your undergarments in a bunch.


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## JNice

*Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>Nique21</b>!
> 
> This has to do with the Magic fans running their mouths about how much better they were than the Rockets and that they got the better end of the deal, and now Magic fans are making excuses after they got defeated twice in one week by the Rockets (One of those games without McGrady). Looks like they can't swallow what they chewed


Maybe this is about Houston fans being way too defensive? If I recall, a majority of Orlando fans, at least on this board, pretty much said the trade was good for both teams and will work out for both teams in the long run.


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## hobojoe

*Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Maybe this is about Houston fans being way too defensive? If I recall, a majority of Orlando fans, at least on this board, pretty much said the trade was good for both teams and will work out for both teams in the long run.


Not only that, but it's not like we're comparing teams that were on the same level last year. Even if Houston is better than Orlando this year, that doesn't mean they got the better end of the deal or even close to it. The Magic won 21 games last season before making the trade, and they've won more games than that already.


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## The_Franchise

*Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Not only that, but it's not like we're comparing teams that were on the same level last year. Even if Houston is better than Orlando this year, that doesn't mean they got the better end of the deal or even close to it. The Magic won 21 games last season before making the trade, and they've won more games than that already.


So you would prefer this team to a lineup of Nelson, McGrady, Hedo, Okafor and Battie?


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## Cap

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Roger's Cardigan</b>!
> 
> 
> So you would prefer this team to a lineup of Nelson, McGrady, Hedo, Okafor and Battie?


Okafor?


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## JNice

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Roger's Cardigan</b>!
> 
> 
> So you would prefer this team to a lineup of Nelson, McGrady, Hedo, Okafor and Battie?



It is likely that team would be better in the East this year, mostly because Okafor is obviously more ready at this point than Dwight. That is assuming you dismiss the fact that Tmac wanted out of Orlando and probably would not have been happy had he stayed.

But you could also argue that while their future is probably brighter with Tmac and Yao on the team now, that Houston might actually have been better this year with Francis, Mobley, and Cato still on board. Especially if Van Gundy decided to open up the offense for Francis like he has for Tmac.

Like i've said before, I think both teams will be better in the long run from the trade.


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## hobojoe

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Roger's Cardigan</b>!
> 
> 
> So you would prefer this team to a lineup of Nelson, McGrady, Hedo, Okafor and Battie?


Yes, I definitely would. Although I don't know why you included Okafor in the lineup and not Howard, I don't think the McGrady trade affected who the Magic picked. Given the season the Magic had last year, adding Howard, Nelson and Turkoglu and trading Gooden for Battie(assuming we make all the same moves) would not improve them nearly to the degree they've improved this year.


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## Minstrel

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> Given the season the Magic had last year, adding Howard, Nelson and Turkoglu and trading Gooden for Battie(assuming we make all the same moves) would not improve them nearly to the degree they've improved this year.


Isn't Grant Hill a rather large factor?


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## J Blaze

*Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Why do people use this logic? So Houston beats Orlando twice so Houston is better than Orlando? Well, Orlando has split two games with San Antonio (nearly winning both), so is Orlando better than San Antonio? Obviously not.
> 
> I'd like one of these defensive Houston fans to go back and point out what I said to get your undergarments in a bunch.


To answer your first paragraph, Houston has beat SA twice but no we're not a better team than them. We've beat Orlando twice (once without McGrady). So I'm not to assume we're a better team? What do you expect people to think after beating Orlando twice without our best player? If Orlando had beat Houston twice, everyone on this board would be saying Orlando is better blah, blah. Not that it makes it true. I'm sure you've heard of the "looks like a duck, talks like a duck" saying. We've beat Orlando twice, what do you expect a great number of people to think?



> No. Houston might be a good defensive team, but San Antonio is a better defensive team and Orlando had no problem scoring against them. Teams just don't regularly have the worst scoring first half in franchise history. Not saying Houston had nothing to do with it, but it was pretty obvious that Orlando was completely off the first half. The only guy who shot 50% was Dwight Howard, hitting 1 of his 2 shots, everyone else was far below 50%.


The only thing that struck a chord with me is you deny Houston had anything to do with Orlando's horrible first half of basketball. Yes, everyone shot below 50% except for D. Howard but could it have been because Houston was chasing all the Magic players around, staying in front of them, and keeping a hand in the Magic players' face? That's my point. Houston's defense had something to do with that. Houston being the 3rd best defensive team backs up my theory.

That is all. I actually like Orlando except for Steve Francis. I wish you all the best of luck and leave it at that.


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## The_Franchise

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> But you could also argue that while their future is probably brighter with Tmac and Yao on the team now, that Houston might actually have been better this year with Francis, Mobley, and Cato still on board. Especially if Van Gundy decided to open up the offense for Francis like he has for Tmac.


The reason it is working for the Rockets right now (to a degree) is because McGrady is so good at catching and shooting. Francis could never do this, he always had to put the ball on the floor and dominate the posession. McGrady is a better creator than Francis, and is a better of judge of when to get his teammates the ball. Tracy is also a far superior perimeter player, so opening up the offense with Francis in Houston could have been disastrous considering we would need him to play very well for all of our wins. 



> Like i've said before, I think both teams will be better in the long run from the trade.


I don't, because it's going to be very hard for Orlando to get far in the playoffs with Francis as the captain of their ship.

Hobojoe: Lets be honest, no one knew Howard would be averaging a double double in just 31 mpg, he was seen as a bit of a project. If TMac was going to stay in Orlando, chances are they would have picked Okafor. And as Minstrel pointed out, you're also forgetting Grant Hill and the reemergence of Garrity.


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## Nique21

*Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> *Why do people use this logic? So Houston beats Orlando twice so Houston is better than Orlando?* Well, Orlando has split two games with San Antonio (nearly winning both), so is Orlando better than San Antonio? Obviously not.
> 
> I'd like one of these defensive Houston fans to go back and point out what I said to get your undergarments in a bunch.


Well when we defeat you once on your own homecourt, and then a couple of days later beat you again without McGrady even playing, what am I supposed to believe? Should we throw McGrady AND Yao off the team for the next time we play you guys and see if you can finally beat us??

All I kept hearing from ESPN is how Orlando seems to have gotten the better end of the deal just because they started off better than Houston. But when Houston is able to beat Orlando twice and one of those games is without McGrady (Not to mention we were leading by 20+ points at one time in that game) I've pretty much come to the conclusion we are the better team this season


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## J Blaze

*Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>Nique21</b>!
> 
> 
> Well when we defeat you once on your own homecourt, and then a couple of days later beat you again without McGrady even playing, what am I supposed to believe? Should we throw McGrady AND Yao off the team for the next time we play you guys and see if you can finally beat us??
> 
> *All I kept hearing from ESPN is how Orlando seems to have gotten the better end of the deal just because they started off better than Houston.* But when Houston is able to beat Orlando twice and one of those games is without McGrady (Not to mention we were leading by 20+ points at one time in that game) I've pretty much come to the conclusion we are the better team this season


That ticked me off too. But now we're looking like the better team so it's ok. You basicly said what I said in your first paragraph. :laugh:


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## JNice

*Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>J Blaze</b>!
> To answer your first paragraph, Houston has beat SA twice but no we're not a better team than them. We've beat Orlando twice (once without McGrady). So I'm not to assume we're a better team? What do you expect people to think after beating Orlando twice without our best player? If Orlando had beat Houston twice, everyone on this board would be saying Orlando is better blah, blah. Not that it makes it true. I'm sure you've heard of the "looks like a duck, talks like a duck" saying. We've beat Orlando twice, what do you expect a great number of people to think?


You make no sense. Houston beats SA and you say no, you are not a better team than them. Houston beats Orlando and now that is the reason for you being a better team? Head to head matches don't mean anything. Houston beating Orlando twice doesn't make Houston a better team. 




> The only thing that struck a chord with me is you deny Houston had anything to do with Orlando's horrible first half of basketball. Yes, everyone shot below 50% except for D. Howard but could it have been because Houston was chasing all the Magic players around, staying in front of them, and keeping a hand in the Magic players' face? That's my point. Houston's defense had something to do with that. Houston being the 3rd best defensive team backs up my theory.
> 
> That is all. I actually like Orlando except for Steve Francis. I wish you all the best of luck and leave it at that.



Where the hell did I deny Houston had nothing to do with it? Did I somewhere say that Houston was standing around on the other end of the court while Orlando just shot wide open shots? No. Not at all. And there wasn't any sort of inference of that in my original response to another post. 

Houston might be a decent defensive team, but no team's defense alone is going to hold Orlando to 27 points in a half. The only team that can hold Orlando to 27 pts in a half is Orlando. 

Funny, I didn't see any of these Houston marks roaming around when Houston was struggling. Now you are out in full force and full defensive mode.


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## JNice

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Roger's Cardigan</b>!
> I don't, because it's going to be very hard for Orlando to get far in the playoffs with Francis as the captain of their ship.


Maybe, maybe not. But an even bigger part of the deal is that Orlando dumped Ty Lue, Reece Gaines, and Juwan Howard who they absolutely did not want anymore. And whether Francis can lead Orlando anywhere or not, Orlando still got assets back that they can use in the future to acquire other players.


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## hobojoe

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Roger's Cardigan</b>!
> Hobojoe: Lets be honest, no one knew Howard would be averaging a double double in just 31 mpg,


He may be exceeding expectations, but not by all that much in my opinion. Most predicted around 10 and 8 for him. 



> he was seen as a bit of a project. If TMac was going to stay in Orlando, chances are they would have picked Okafor.


I disagree. Why would they? By saying they'd take Okafor you're implying that they'd be "trying to win now" as opposed to building towards the future. Hasn't this trade made them a lot better now rather than for the future? Your logic isn't making any sense to me. 



> And as Minstrel pointed out, you're also forgetting Grant Hill


You think I completely forgot about Hill? Obviously he falls into the equation, but still. We're talking about a 21 team last season, and a team that has more wins than that half way through this season.



> and the reemergence of Garrity.


Don't make me laugh. Garrity has been terrible this year, probably the most disappointing player on the Magic. He's helped the Magic in maybe 3 games all year. The game against the Lakers, the one against Charlotte, and the recent one against Philly, all at home I believe. Other than that he's been useless.


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## Minstrel

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> You think I completely forgot about Hill? Obviously he falls into the equation, but still. We're talking about a 21 team last season, and a team that has more wins than that half way through this season.


A likely All-Star forward out of nowhere will have a huge impact on that. He's scoring nearly 20 ppg on 50% shooting! And adding 4.2 boards and 3.6 assists per game. He's not a superstar like he once was, but he's been playing at star-level.

A team of:

PG: Jameer Nelson
SG: Tracy McGrady
SF: Grant Hill
PF: Dwight Howard
C: Tony Battie

Could very well be at least twice as good as last year's Orlando team (which this current Orlando team is, approximately, based on win totals), if not more so.

Yes, you experience a major drop-off at point, going from Francis to Nelson, but Nelson, McGrady and Hill can all pass well, alleviating the need for a true point guard (and one can debate how devoted to simply play-making Franics is, anyway).

I personally think all trade analyses that credit the team's turn-around to the McGrady trade are being willfully simplistic. Three factors are powering Orlando's turn-around: *A*. the re-emergence of Grant Hill, *B.* the acquisition of Dwight Howard (Emeka Okafor may have led to an even greater immediate turn-around) and *C.* Orlando probably had some bad luck, especially in the 19-game losing streak, that caused them to lose more games than they "should" have. Even with no changes, returning the same lineup, they likely would have won a few games more.

I personally don't think the trade had anything significant to do with the turnaround. They downgraded their starting lineup (from McGrady to Francis) and increased their depth (with Mobley, who became Christie, and Cato). If anything it was a break-even in the present and I think hurts Orlando in the long-run.


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## J Blaze

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> You make no sense. Houston beats SA and you say no, you are not a better team than them. Houston beats Orlando and now that is the reason for you being a better team? Head to head matches don't mean anything. Houston beating Orlando twice doesn't make Houston a better team.


It's not hard to understand. San Antonio Spurs = 34 - 10 and #1 seed in the West. That equals us not being the better team. To be a better team than SA we would have a better record and practically be the best team in the league. You want hard facts? Fine. The Orlando Magic = 22 - 19. We've beaten you twice and once without our best player and we have a better record *in the West.* That's why I believe we're a better team. I'm not trying to stir things up with Magic fans but that's my opinion backed up with facts I see that make sense.



> Where the hell did I deny Houston had nothing to do with it? Did I somewhere say that Houston was standing around on the other end of the court while Orlando just shot wide open shots? No. Not at all. And there wasn't any sort of inference of that in my original response to another post.
> 
> Houston might be a decent defensive team, but no team's defense alone is going to hold Orlando to 27 points in a half. The only team that can hold Orlando to 27 pts in a half is Orlando.


Did I say you said that "Houston was standing around on the other end of the court while Orlando just shot wide open shots"? No. You first said it was all totally chalked up to Orlando having a franchise worst first half. I then replied with Houston is the 3rd best defensive team and that might have something to do with that, to which you replied with "Well, San Antonio is a better defensive team and we had no problem scoring against them". You tried to say that Houston's defense had nothing to do with the bad first half. I totally disagree with what you said for reasons I've stated in my previous posts. 



> Funny, I didn't see any of these Houston marks roaming around when Houston was struggling. Now you are out in full force and full defensive mode.


Well by the same token I didn't see any of you Magic "marks" last year when you were 1 and 19. You sound more in defensive mode than anyone. I just pointed out that Houston's defense had a lot to do with Orlando's bad first half. Sounds like you disagreed and tried to downplay Houston's defensive abilities. In other words, your the most defensive person that's replied in this thread. Not Houston fans, we're just stating the obvious.


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## JNice

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>J Blaze</b>!
> It's not hard to understand. San Antonio Spurs = 34 - 10 and #1 seed in the West. That equals us not being the better team. To be a better team than SA we would have a better record and practically be the best team in the league. The Orlando Magic = 22 - 19. We've beaten you twice and once without our best player and we have a better record in the West. That's why I believe we're a better team. I'm not trying to stir things up with Magic fans but that's my opinion backed up with facts I see that make sense.


No, you and others were using Houston winning two games as a basis for saying Houston is better. 



> Did I say you said that "Houston was standing around on the other end of the court while Orlando just shot wide open shots"? No. You first said it was all totally chalked up to Orlando having a franchise worst first half. I then replied with Houston is the 3rd best defensive team and that might have something to do with that, to which you replied with "Well, San Antonio is a better defensive team and we had no problem scoring against them". You tried to say that Houston's defense had nothing to do with the bad first half. I totally disagree with what you said for reasons I've stated in my previous posts.


I never "totally chalked up" anything nor did I say Houston's defense had nothing to do with it.



> Well by the same token I didn't see any of you Magic "marks" last year when you were 1 and 19. You sound more in defensive mode than anyone. I just pointed out that Houston's defense had a lot to do with Orlando's bad first half. Sounds like you disagreed and tried to downplay Houston's defensive abilities. In other words, your the most defensive person that's replied in this thread. Not Houston fans, we're just stating the obvious.



I was here the whole time. And spent most of last season defending your new trooper Tmac. I am not being defensive. Let me go back to my post -

-----


> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> it would be close game last night if T-Mac played for Magic.


No, it would be close if Orlando hadn't had its worst scoring first-half in franchise history. It happens.
-----


Funny thing is, I didn't even say Orlando would be winning or would have won the game. I said "it would be close" ... 
:laugh: ... and then I get jumped all over. Hilarious. You can credit Houston's defense all you want, but it is more than obvious Orlando's first half was an aberration.


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## J Blaze

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> No, you and others were using Houston winning two games as a basis for saying Houston is better.


?? You must have missed most of my post. Here it is again with the main points highlighted to indicate why I believe we're the better team: 

It's not hard to understand. San Antonio Spurs = 34 - 10 and #1 seed in the West. That equals us not being the better team. To be a better team than SA we would have a better record and practically be the best team in the league. You want hard facts? Fine. *The Orlando Magic = 22 - 19. We've beaten you twice and once without our best player and we have a better record in the West.* That's why I believe we're a better team. I'm not trying to stir things up with Magic fans but that's my opinion backed up with facts I see that make sense.




> I never "totally chalked up" anything nor did I say Houston's defense had nothing to do with it.


Ok fine so you admit Houston's defense had something to do with Orlando's bad first half.



> I was here the whole time. And spent most of last season defending your new trooper Tmac. I am not being defensive. Let me go back to my post -


Point? I was here too when Houston was losing.



> Funny thing is, I didn't even say Orlando would be winning or would have won the game. I said "it would be close" ...
> :laugh: ... and then I get jumped all over. Hilarious. You can credit Houston's defense all you want, but it is more than obvious Orlando's first half was an aberration.


Did I jump on you for saying "it would be close"? No, if I did, point to my post where i said it. 

If you want to believe Orlando's first half was more of an aberration than Houston's defense fine. Obviously I'm not going to change your mind. I'll just leave that part of the discussion believing I'm right and you can leave it thinking your right.


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## The_Franchise

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> I disagree. Why would they? By saying they'd take Okafor you're implying that they'd be "trying to win now" as opposed to building towards the future. *Hasn't this trade made them a lot better now rather than for the future?* Your logic isn't making any sense to me.


I don't see how it has made them better _now_. Nelson, McGrady, Hill, Battie, Okafor/Howard with Hedo coming off the bench is better than their current lineup. 



> Don't make me laugh. Garrity has been terrible this year, probably the most disappointing player on the Magic. He's helped the Magic in maybe 3 games all year. The game against the Lakers, the one against Charlotte, and the recent one against Philly, all at home I believe. Other than that he's been useless.


Exactly, because he doesn't play alongside McGrady anymore. Thrived with McGrady's double teams and hit a good numbers of his treys rolling out to the perimeter. TMac was his bread and butter.


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## farhan007

seriously... 
rockets have a better record
they are getting that record in the WEST
they had a really sloww start and for the past 26 games are 18-8
they sweep the magics this season once without our franchise player

isnt that enough of an argument for us to say the houston rockets are better than the magics.


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## J Blaze

> Originally posted by <b>farhan007</b>!
> seriously...
> rockets have a better record
> they are getting that record in the WEST
> they had a really sloww start and for the past 26 games are 18-8
> they sweep the magics this season once without our franchise player
> 
> isnt that enough of an argument for us to say the houston rockets are better than the magics.


BTW, looking at your sig, you believe JVG should be fired?


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## The_Franchise

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jay, is he nice?*



> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> Maybe, maybe not. But an even bigger part of the deal is that Orlando dumped Ty Lue, Reece Gaines, and Juwan Howard who they absolutely did not want anymore. And whether Francis can lead Orlando anywhere or not, Orlando still got assets back that they can use in the future to acquire other players.


I wish people would stop talking about Lue and Gaines as "salary dumps". Lue has an expiring $1.6 million contract, Gaines has 2 years and $2.5 million before he is out the league. Pocket change in the NBA. 

Juwan Howard is a different story, but he is still being productive for Houston.


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## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Roger's Cardigan</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't see how it has made them better _now_. Nelson, McGrady, Hill, Battie, Okafor/Howard with Hedo coming off the bench is better than their current lineup.


It's really easy to make these hypothetical lineups and say they'd do this and that, but the fact of the matter is that people looked at the talent on the Magic last year and predicted a Top 3 seed for them. There's just no way you can make the kind of assumptions you want to make to strengthen your argument. I'm not making any. 21 wins last seasons, more than that half way through this season. I'm well aware of the fact that the Magic made other moves and that Grant Hill is back this year. 

Look at it this way. The Magic would not have started the year off well, I can almost guarantee that. Nelson played pretty poorly at the beginning of the year, I don't really want to imagine how things would've gone if he was the starter right out of the gate and had to play big minutes. Also look at how the Rockets started out slow with McGrady learning how to play with Yao. He'd have to learn to play with Howard as well, and Hill too for that matter. Having so many ball handlers on the court is not something T-Mac was used to in Orlando. He was forced to have the ball in his hands 90% of the time the team was on offense. If things started out slow again, how do you think T-Mac and the rest of the team would've reacted following their terrible year last year? McGrady would either ask for a trade at that point since we're assuming he didn't over the summer I guess, or he'd start to "slack off" or get frustrated. Either way, I don't think they would be able to overcome the poor start and turn it around into a playoff team. 





> Exactly, because he doesn't play alongside McGrady anymore. Thrived with McGrady's double teams and hit a good numbers of his treys rolling out to the perimeter. TMac was his bread and butter.


No. Sorry MRC, but you're flat out wrong on this one. Take it from someone who's watched almost every Magic game over the past few seasons. Garrity is flat out playing worse this season, nothing more to it. He's getting his shots, they just aren't falling so far this season.


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## Yyzlin

I wasn't a fan of the trade in the offseason, and I'm still not. The team hasn't improved for the future, merely bargaining that for a team that better fits Weisbrod's agenda now. Given the two lineups in discussion, I don't really see either team being vastly greater than the other for the time being and it really would have been a pleasure to see McGrady operate with a healthy Grant Hill and an actual low post presence. I'm pretty positive he would also have been more willing getting the ball to Howard. Perhaps most important though, instead of a Howard/McGrady duo to look forward, we're "stuck" with Howard/Francis. It's not bad, but it could be better. 

But of course, this is all speculation, and it all comes down to if McGrady actually wanted to be in Orlando, which only he knows. He made it evident that he wanted out, but that was only after conflicts had occured between him and Weisbrod. What could have been?


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## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Look at it this way. The Magic would not have started the year off well, I can almost guarantee that. Nelson played pretty poorly at the beginning of the year, I don't really want to imagine how things would've gone if he was the starter right out of the gate and had to play big minutes.


They would have big boy Lue as well, and who is to say they wouldn't of brought in a PG via FA?



> Also look at how the Rockets started out slow with McGrady learning how to play with Yao. He'd have to learn to play with Howard as well, and Hill too for that matter.


You and I both know Howard is not a part of any organized offense. TMac would not have to adjust his game one bit for Howard, and he already did a great job playing alongside Grant Hill at the start of the 02-03 season. 



> Having so many ball handlers on the court is not something T-Mac was used to in Orlando. He was forced to have the ball in his hands 90% of the time the team was on offense. If things started out slow again, how do you think T-Mac and the rest of the team would've reacted following their terrible year last year? McGrady would either ask for a trade at that point since we're assuming he didn't over the summer I guess, or he'd start to "slack off" or get frustrated. Either way, I don't think they would be able to overcome the poor start and turn it around into a playoff team.


I may be making hypothetical lineups and predicting their success, but you are creating hypothetical scenarios here and it doesn't really lead to any conclusion.



> No. Sorry MRC, but you're flat out wrong on this one. Take it from someone who's watched almost every Magic game over the past few seasons. Garrity is flat out playing worse this season, nothing more to it. He's getting his shots, they just aren't falling so far this season.


So you don't think McGrady's absence affects Garrity even a little bit? Francis is getting Garrity the shots he needs? I doubt it, even PG's as talented as Francis won't command the attention of McGrady. And we already know Francis doesn't have McGrady's playmaking skills, so I definitely think Garrity would be having a better season with TMac.


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## JT3000

*edited: Attacking fanbases is not allowed*


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Roger's Cardigan</b>!
> So you don't think McGrady's absence affects Garrity even a little bit? Francis is getting Garrity the shots he needs? I doubt it, even PG's as talented as Francis won't command the attention of McGrady. And we already know Francis doesn't have McGrady's playmaking skills, so I definitely think Garrity would be having a better season with TMac.


You are incorrect on this one. Garrity has had a ton of open shots. He just isn't hitting them except for, as Hobo pointed out, maybe 3 games this year. Otherwise he has been terrible and it is not because he isn't getting the open shots.


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## Cap

I think this may all be moot in two or three years when Dwight Howard becomes one of the best big men in the league.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> I think this may all be moot in two or three years when Dwight Howard becomes one of the best big men in the league.


:yes:


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## JT3000

> Originally posted by <b>JT3000</b>!
> *edited: Attacking fanbases is not allowed*


Yet Rockets fans can call us classless all they want and not a single word is said to them. I don't wanna hear that crap.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>JT3000</b>!
> 
> 
> Yet Rockets fans can call us classless all they want and not a single word is said to them. I don't wanna hear that crap.


If you feel you or Magic fans were attacked, PM me or another NBA mod about it. Don't blast another fanbase.


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## Smooth Lotion

When Dwight Howard does develop into one of the best big men in the game, Orlando fans will be demanding trades for Francis.


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## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>Smooth Lotion</b>!
> When Dwight Howard does develop into one of the best big men in the game, Orlando fans will be demanding trades for Francis.


I was just about to bring this point up. As I've said quite a few times before, in my opinion you can't win a chamionship with a score-first point guard like Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, Gilbert Arenas, etc. The point guard needs to have the role of running the offense, making plays, playing defense, and hitting open shots when they're given to him. With a big man like Dwight Howard already on the team, and already showing that he can be a force down low (but for some reason Francis and the Magic as a team rarely get him the ball in the post) I think the Magic need to seriously consider getting rid of Francis this offseason. His trade value will be high as he's coming off likely his best statistical season and a season in which he likely leads the Magic to the playoffs, so he should be able to get Orlando some nice pieces to put around Howard for the future. I don't think this is going to end up happening, but I'd be kind of surprised if Weisbrod doesn't at least explore the option. 

My perfect scenario would be for Sacramento to get bounced out of the playoffs in the 1st round again, finally causing them to blow things up. Peja gets his wish to be traded finally, C-Webb gets shopped around but no one wants to take his contract, etc. The Magic jump at the chance and offer the Kings Steve Francis for Mike Bibby and Sacramento bites on the deal and reunites Francis with Mobley in Sacramento. Orlando gets itself the ideal PG for the future to play alongside Dwight Howard. The franchise is built around Dwight Howard, and the Magic already have two very good shooters around him in Bibby and Turkoglu locked up for years to come.


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## Smooth Lotion

I guess that is contingent on whether Adelman remains. As long as Adelman is in Sacramento, Bibby isn't going anywhere.

Francis' biggest flaw is that he isn't 3 inches taller.


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