# Is this for real or a bluff? (Jrue Holliday)



## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

(RealGM article saying Knicks starting to be interested in Holliday over Curry)

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_a...knicks_more_enamored_with_holiday_than_curry/

Like I said, gimme Holliday, Evans, Jennings or Rubio (Trade-up) before Curry. For our sake, I hope this isn't a bluff.


For the record, we pick 8th overall. Here are 8 players whom I would much rather select before Stephen Curry. Not all feasible for our pick, just trying to make a point that Curry at our slot is awful value. These are obviously not all PGs.

1. Blake Griffin
2. Ricky Rubio
3. James Harden
4. Brandon Jennings
5. Tyreke Evans
6. Jrue Holliday
7. Johnny Flynn
8. Hasheem Thabeet
9. Demar Derozan
10. Earl Clark

I would take these ALL (in that order) before even considering Steph Curry for our pick. My realistic preference is basically from Jennings down.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

What did Holliday do in college to justify he is a better player than Curry? This guy under achieved for 90% of the college season and he supposedly was a 'diaper dandy'


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*LOl, Knickfan*

Showing off your accumen, again? That looks more like a bust list. Clark? Tim Thomas lite. Jennings? Bustaroni. Harden? Seriously? How impressive was his play in the biggest games of his life? Stiff. Thabeet? See Sene. Evans? Bigger version of Crawford. Willing defender, though. Derozan is not the athlete he was advertised to be. I did like his interview, though. Same with Holiday. Flynn, I believe in.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

To be fair, I think Clark is more like Odom. He really did play well at Louisville, I think his game will translate to the pros. Its guys like Jennings and Holliday who pretty much had mediocre seasons that baffles me how high they are on draft boards. I wont even talk about Harden who pretty much disappeared in the tourney.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*To be fair and give you a shot at me...*

1)Griffin
2)Rubio
3)Curry
4)Flynn
5)Hill
6)Holiday
7)Derozan
8)Trade down


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

HB said:


> To be fair, I think Clark is more like Odom. He really did play well at Louisville, I think his game will translate to the pros. Its guys like Jennings and Holliday who pretty much had mediocre seasons that baffles me how high they are on draft boards. I wont even talk about Harden who pretty much disappeared in the tourney.


to be fair jennings was in just a horrible position , he was not ready for what he put himself into and their coach wasn't about to develop him just so he could leave...you pretty much have to just throw his european vacation out ...which doesn't give you much to go on...i see at best kenny anderson with tj ford's athleticism....at worst telfair...there is a big gap there.

if the nba cant draft him ...they should at least allow the nbdl to...he should never have had to choose between not playing , college or overseas.

holiday ...is an uptempo pg , not only does ucla play a very very methodical game ...but he played off the ball because of collison who is a good player. J'rue holiday is one of those guys everyone knows will look much better as a pro.

i would rather have holiday than curry or jennings he reminds me of duhon ...but with talent.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*As far as PGs...*

For me it's Rubio, Curry, and then Flynn/Holiday. I liked Holiday's interview. I just don't really see a downside with Curry since his combine results.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: As far as PGs...*



alphaorange said:


> For me it's Rubio, Curry, and then Flynn/Holiday. I liked Holiday's interview. I just don't really see a downside with Curry since his combine results.


i dont know he fared as well as some are leading us to believe.

out of the point guards who have 1st round aspirations sans rubio evans , collison , holiday, teague , lawson , maynor and flynn curry looks mediocre athletically.

in the sprint he finished the slowest at 3.28

he finished 7 out of the 8 in agility drill at 11.07

in vertical reach(the important one because it doesn't matter how high your feet are off the floor but how high your hand gets for shots and defense) he finished 5th out of 8 

in vert. leap he was 4th

in the benchpress he finished 3rd ...which is good but is much more important for the post players than the perimeter players ...the best thing it says for Curry is that he has a strong work ethic to be able to do 10 with such a thin body.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Yes, but the point is this:*

With all that he does with excellence, he was be discredited for being slow and nonathletic. He may not be a supreme athlete but he is much better than his detractors said. Larry Brown was wowed during his workouts and knows he will go early. IMO,he will end up a star eventually.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Yes, but the point is this:*



alphaorange said:


> With all that he does with excellence, he was be discredited for being slow and nonathletic. He may not be a supreme athlete but he is much better than his detractors said. Larry Brown was wowed during his workouts and knows he will go early. IMO,he will end up a star eventually.


what exactly did his detractors say he was athletically that was so untrue?


93 hurley lindsay hunter
94 kidd
95 d. stoudamire
96.iverson marbury
97 billups , daniels
98 bibby j-williams
99 baron , francis, andre miller
00 crawford dooling
02 jay will
03 hinrich , tj ford
04 livingston devin harris
05 deron williams chris paul, felton
06 foye 
07 conley
08 d.rose augustine westbrook

28 point guards drafted in the last 15 years in the top 10

how many can you say Curry is superior to from a physical/athletic prospective ?

my guess is not too many .


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Not the point*

They said (pre combine) that he was too small....too weak...to slow to be an NBA guard. Opinions have changed. Also he is superior to many of them in one aspect or another. For example: Bigger than Augustine....more athletic than Kidd....etc.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Not the point*



alphaorange said:


> They said (pre combine) that he was too small....too weak...to slow to be an NBA guard. Opinions have changed. Also he is superior to many of them in one aspect or another. For example: Bigger than Augustine....more athletic than Kidd....etc.



i'll rephrase the question .

from a physical and athletic standpoint how many nba GM's would prefer curry to any of the point guards drafted in the top 10 the last 15 or so years?

and there is no way Curry is more athletic than kidd...Kidd had him in virtually every way coming into the nba...bigger, stronger, faster...i cant say quicker...if the combine tests are any indication they are about equally lacking in quickness.

And to be honest i dont think people were saying Curry was too unathletic to be in the nba (after all the league has had john paxson,sherman douglass and curry's worst case scenerio steve kerr) but that he is to unathletic to be an elite guard or to justify being drafted so high...there is a big difference ...he was after all being discussed for a lottery pick , if it were truly the case they would be talking about whether he would be drafted at all.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Curry is as athletic as Terry at best and in the worst case scenario, as athletic as Bibby. Both have had long careers in the NBA, which bodes well for him.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

HB said:


> Curry is as athletic as Terry at best and in the worst case scenario, as athletic as Bibby. Both have had long careers in the NBA, which bodes well for him.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1IAe5ArmfA
Curry cant even touch that.....

and bibby is a PG who can shoot.......not a shooting guard playing point.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*This is just dumb...*

Athleticism is not the damned end all to being a great player. I have been watching for a long time and through the different eras of players I have seen many, many players who have not been the most athletic at their positions, yet were all stars. Hell, even more than a third of the top 50 players weren't not at the top of their position athletically, including Bird and our own Clyde. Nearly every player gives up something to other players. I prefer to have acceptable(and better) athleticism with brains, honed skills, and fire. Curry has all of these.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

knickstorm said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1IAe5ArmfA
> Curry cant even touch that.....
> 
> and bibby is a PG who can shoot.......not a shooting guard playing point.


A.) Terry's game is not based on dunking over people. He's a guy who runs around screens, break his man off the dribble and uses his really dependable J to score.

B.) Bibby's not a true point, he's never had a 7-8apg season and considering the loaded teams he's been on thats pretty weird for a 'true point'. He's a combo guard no doubt about it.


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## Kiyaman2 (May 31, 2009)

Da Grinch said:


> to be fair jennings was in just a horrible position , he was not ready for what he put himself into and their coach wasn't about to develop him just so he could leave...you pretty much have to just throw his european vacation out ...which doesn't give you much to go on...i see at best kenny anderson with tj ford's athleticism....at worst telfair...there is a big gap there.
> 
> if the nba cant draft him ...they should at least allow the nbdl to...he should never have had to choose between not playing , college or overseas.
> 
> ...



COSIGN!!! 

I'm Back! 

The 4th pick Sacremento Kings are crippled without a PG....SG-Kenny Thomas may have a like to tutor PG-Holiday's skillful talents with the help from coach Sam Cassel, rather than the controversal Rubio, or cross-over athletic Jennings. 

The big N.Y. media has set the stage and minds of Knick-fans by indicating Stephen Curry as the 8th pick in practically every article about the Knicks since the ending of the regular season. 

This past season the Knicks biggest weakness were their frontcourt Bigmen (empty), Blake Griffin is the number one player in this draft-class the Knicks need/want and is urgent for the most. 
Although, Thabeet and Hill maybe 2 to 4 year project bigmen if they are there at the 8th pick we have no other choice but to select them with the 8th pick. 

Our other weakest position this past season were the SG-position (completely empty), poor performance Q.Richardson & Larry Hughes refuse to mix well with our PG and SF while playing the SG position. 
Both players are on their ending contracts (and ending career) if they dont make a 360 turn in their poor veteran performance next season. 
Selecting a natural SG with the 8th pick should be high on the Knicks chart to prepare in one season for the 2010-11 season (Terrence Williams or Henderson). 

The Knicks 32 win season was on the strength of our strongest position covered and dominated throughout the season, inwhich was undoubtedly the PG-position....which fooled us all by a creative 40 mpg Duhon and a 30 mpg Nate this season. The two PG's first time as teammates teamed up to grab NBA wins without any Bigmen in the frontcourt with a decent rotation of SF playing out of positions. 
Giving these two PG's another season together with a couple of veteran bigmen and a young SG to mold would "lure" a couple of star 2010 FA to look our way twice hoping for an offer sheet.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> B.) Bibby's not a true point, he's never had a 7-8apg season and considering the loaded teams he's been on thats pretty weird for a 'true point'. He's a combo guard no doubt about it.


99-00: Playing in all 82 games Bibby averaged 8.1 assists per game
00-01: Playing in all 82 games Bibby averaged 8.4 assists per game

It's been a while and I agree with your general point, just pointing out the facts.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: This is just dumb...*



alphaorange said:


> Athleticism is not the damned end all to being a great player. I have been watching for a long time and through the different eras of players I have seen many, many players who have not been the most athletic at their positions, yet were all stars. Hell, even more than a third of the top 50 players weren't not at the top of their position athletically, including Bird and our own Clyde. Nearly every player gives up something to other players. I prefer to have acceptable(and better) athleticism with brains, honed skills, and fire. Curry has all of these.


You've probably been watching the NBA since there was no such thing as athleticism and teams didn't value hops. This generation of basketball is different, without at least above average athleticism and some decent quickness you don't succeed as a guard.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*You're not the brightest bulb, are you?*

It isn't just an athletic contest. Its a game of skill, will, intelligence, and talent. If you don't get that, and place athleticism above all, you simply are not bright enough to be taught. For every athletic "stud" you can name who is a star, I can give you 10 that are flops, starting with Gerald Green. Btw, Athleticism has ALWAYS been a part of the game, just not the end all. Learn the history of the game and show some respect for it.

Lastly, why do you think the Euros were kicking our *** until recently? I'll give my answer later but I'd love to get your take.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

I'm not the brightest bulb? Person attacks on me again Alphaorange? I'd expect a little more maturity and restraint from a 50+ year old man.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Honestly either of the 3 between Holiday, Curry, or Flynn would be tremendous for us since there isn't much size available that's worth a damn. Curry is going to be one of the best shooters in the league from the get-go. He finally has teammates who are even average so he won't be shooting so many contested shots, which dragged his % down last season. I don't think he is a natural PG but he has good vision, is a willing passer, and in our system those qualities are going to allow him to get quite a few assists and set others up for scoring opportunties. 



People are down on Holiday because he had a sub-par freshman campaign but I think that talk is unfounded. The kid grew up playing point guard, and he was thrust into the SG position because Darren Collison was already the established starter at the 1. He also played in a boring, slow style of offense that inhibited his skills even further. He is 6'4" long, fairly athletic, he can defend really well, he is a good passer, and a good ball-handler. He needs to work on his jumper but he is a solid prospect down the line and he gives us defense.



Flynn is who I want playing in a Knick uniform next season. His size doesn't concern me at all. He has outstanding quickness and leaping ability (youtube him and you will see some of the dunks he has thrown down on centers), he has a yo-yo handle, he has a good amount of toughness, and he would be an absolute terror running the pick and roll. I could see Flynn coming in and giving us some great production from the get go next year, the kid is such an outstanding PG prospect.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Sniff....sniff*

Just an observation and I call it as I see it. I can dish it out and I can take it, too. When you make a ridiculous statement as fact, you should expect to get called on it. What I notice about "your" generation is that you know little about the actual nuances of the game and are enthralled by the entertainment aspect. You love lots of dunking and And1 crap. The fact is, it has little to do with winning basketball games.

You never answered my question about losing to the Euros....well?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Speaking of getting called on stuff.*



alphaorange said:


> Just an observation and I call it as I see it. I can dish it out and I can take it, too. When you make a ridiculous statement as fact, you should expect to get called on it. What I notice about "your" generation is that you know little about the actual nuances of the game and are enthralled by the entertainment aspect. You love lots of dunking and And1 crap. The fact is, it has little to do with winning basketball games.
> 
> You never answered my question about losing to the Euros....well?


this ageism thing you have going is getting old...just because you are in your 50's doesn't mean you are the oracle of basketball.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: You're not the brightest bulb, are you?*



alphaorange said:


> It isn't just an athletic contest. Its a game of skill, will, intelligence, and talent. If you don't get that, and place athleticism above all, you simply are not bright enough to be taught. For every athletic "stud" you can name who is a star, I can give you 10 that are flops, starting with Gerald Green. Btw, Athleticism has ALWAYS been a part of the game, just not the end all. Learn the history of the game and show some respect for it.
> 
> Lastly, why do you think the Euros were kicking our *** until recently? I'll give my answer later but I'd love to get your take.


its very rare a point guard is a star level player without at least above average physical tools.

look at the top pg's today and find 1 who came into the league physically inferior to curry .

chris paul
deron williams 
tony parker
billups 
nash
devin harris
andre miller
jason kidd
derrick rose 
russel westbrook

there arent just physical obstacles for curry if you notice on that list the least athletic players like kidd , nash and miller are true point guards in every sense of the word, they are leaders , they have excellent point guard skills , handle, passing spacial awareness...and you have guys who have great pg skills plus came into the league with awesome physical abilities like williams , paul, billups and guys like rose westbrook and parker who are from a purely physical prospective extremely hard to defend , too quick and fast and in westbrook
's and rose's case also very strong with great leaping ability

i'm not saying its impossible for him to be successful and be a star pg , but the odds are stacked against him.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Curry isn't going to be a star and if you view him as one your always going to be disappointed. The guy is an above-average athlete with a great jumper, and he has good court vision. At his peak I could see him going for 15/5 almost every night out. The guy is going to be one of the best shooters in the league for years to come, and his court vision is going to open up opportunties for others. He will never be an elite PG though. I mean CP3, Deron Williams, OJ Mayo, Derrick Rose, Devin Harris, Russell Westbrook, Ricky Rubio, Jonny Flynn, and John Wall are probably all going to end up better than him (Brandon Jennings, Eric Maynor also having that potential). Curry will firmly place himself as a solid PG/combo guard during his time in the NBA but he certainly won't be a star.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

If Curry is still around the Knicks pick they should get him I doubt they get better value at 8 unless Tyreke Evans is still around and even than its a toss up and I would even lean towards Curry a bit


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

I don't think Curry is a bad pick by any means, but if Flynn is available I think he should be the selection.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*LMAO, Grinch....*

Ageism? Saying that I've watched for long time is relevant as there is no substitute for experience. I did not, however, bring up my age. The other poster did. Now, since this discussion had nothing to do with you in any way, why don't you stick to defending your own lame suppositions. The fact that you say that less athletic PGs are effective because they are true PGs is about as hollow a statement as can be made. Either you can play, or you can't. That applies to every position. Now if Miller or Williams decided to be scoring PGs, they could be. Williams is not an awesome physical specimen. Neither is Miller...nor Nash..In fact, going back over the last 5 years, Curry stacks up well against most of the PGs taken, including your "stars", and including some of the highly regarded PGs in this draft. You can go and check the workout stats if you wish. If you need a link, just ask. Sonny Weems is head and shoulders above all of them, and he sucks. Now, my age isn't everything, but it helps. It also helps to be smarter than 99% of the population. It also helps to have exceptional analytical skills. I can look at things and KNOW what IS and what ISN'T. Arrogant? No, just true. I'll put my opinions against anybody's for accuracy...especially yours. What I can't know without knowing the player is what is inside, but there are clues. Curry will be drafted high and it won't be because he is envisioned as a SG. As I told the other poster (and apparently you weren't paying attention), I can give you a dozen elite athlete failures for every success. It is CLEARLY not the most important aspect. The first PG taken this year will not be an elite athlete.

Psssttt....most of the PGs on your list are inferior to Curry in one form or another. Curry was quicker than Paul in the agility drills, for example. Also, I am not THE oracle....just one of the better ones. I did miss on Lopez and Nichols (so far), though.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Forget all this talk about being a star. Its one of the mistakes GMs make draft wise, always looking for the 'star' rather than guys who can play the game. If Curry becomes a Fisher type player, its a win win for the Knicks. You need guys who can hit big shots, and Curry's that type of guy. Even undersized Redick has value on the Magic.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

HB said:


> Forget all this talk about being a star. Its one of the mistakes GMs make draft wise, always looking for the 'star' rather than guys who can play the game. If Curry becomes a Fisher type player, its a win win for the Knicks. You need guys who can hit big shots, and Curry's that type of guy. Even undersized Redick has value on the Magic.


Curry is going to be better than Fisher, but I agree you need guys like a Curry to help fill out your roster and win games especially come playoff time.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

knicksfan said:


> I'm not the brightest bulb? Person attacks on me again Alphaorange? I'd expect a little more maturity and restraint from a 50+ year old man.


No response Alphaorange? Or do you just like being an agitator/flame?


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Ask a question if you want a response*

Or post one of your ridiculously dumb posts that just amazes. It's hard for me to believe anyone that watches ball could be so clueless. I'm sorry that I have very little tolerance for stupidity. Its a flaw of mine. Hark....I can hear the approach of allies, coming to defend your honor...which will prove my point.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

JEEEEEEEEEEEZ, you guys need to calm down. Whether you're 50, 40, 30, 20, or 10, basketball is basketball. The point of the game is to have more points than the opponent at the end of the day. As for who would be a best fit is really a toss-up, I don't really know. From highlights of these players you guys speak of, I felt Johnny Flynn maybe a pretty good fit. While you can't judge a player from highlight reels, from the ones I saw Flynn was the only who really demonstrated good vision and great play making ability. Stephen Curry obviously has his shot and a young Gilbert Arenas swag to him. Jrue Holiday demonstrated a good ability to score and get into the lane. 

I think our pick could be Flynn, however I am no GM and certinaly not a fortune teller, I don't know what really will hapen. One argument that I will make is that while Curry and Holiday seemed great, they most certainly need to pack on a few pounds. While athleticism is certainly not an required necessity, in most cases it gives an edge to players who are athletic compared to those who are not (note*: there are obviously exceptions, i.e. Paul Pierce, Hedo Turkoglu, etc.)


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Flynn should be the pick. The kid is wired to play in our offense, and he has had some epic performances already in MSG (Big East tourney this year). :champagne:


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

bball2223 said:


> Flynn should be the pick. The kid is wired to play in our offense, and he has had some epic performances already in MSG (Big East tourney this year). :champagne:


From what I've seen he can throw some ridiculous passes, good court vision :10:


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

The thing I fear most is if we wind up with none of the three and Brandon Jennings instead ::FML::


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Gotham2krazy said:


> From what I've seen he can throw some ridiculous passes, good court vision :10:


Great athlete, and he will be a beast in the pick and roll. Knicks fans for Flynn:champagne:


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Flynn is #3 for me..*

I agree with all that you said and if we get him, I'd be happy. I think he might take a little longer to be ready but I like him. As a guy that watches a lot of SU, he is going to surprise the haters. Rubio, Curry, then Flynn. I would not gamble on a guy because he is supremely athletic. He would have to show some body of successful work beyond HS..unless...he was a big with a good motor and mind. Curry simply is a better player than people think and has the potential to grow into a SG. I wouldn't count on it, but it happens to be a real possibility until his plates close.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: Ask a question if you want a response*



alphaorange said:


> Or post one of your ridiculously dumb posts that just amazes. It's hard for me to believe anyone that watches ball could be so clueless. I'm sorry that I have very little tolerance for stupidity. Its a flaw of mine. Hark....I can hear the approach of allies, coming to defend your honor...which will prove my point.


I have very little tolerance for stupidity as well, which is why I'm getting tired of your worn-out, ageist approach. The NBA nowadays isn't won the same way it was when you were young. It's won with skill and athleticism. Old-school approaches aren't bad, but people who are totally out of touch with today's game pretending they know something about the style of Basketball that is currently successful in the NBA is.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Ya know, for the Knicks, if they just pick a point guard, any point guard in this draft, they cant go wrong.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

HB said:


> Ya know, for the Knicks, if they just pick a point guard, any point guard in this draft, they cant go wrong.


I think you could go wrong with Brandon Jennings :whiteflag:


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

Gotham2krazy said:


> I think you could go wrong with Brandon Jennings :whiteflag:


I totally disagree. He's actually who I want, especially if it's instead of Stephen Curry. I said it before, I'll say it again. Give me Jennings, Evans or Holliday. In that order. My 4th guy is Flynn, ahead of Curry as well.


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