# Trading LaFrentz?



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Would you trade Raef LaFrentz in a deal, only to rid ourselves of his salary if it meant trading for a player of lesser ability? LaFrentz is due about ten million dollars next season, and about 44.4 million dollars in all (over the next four seasons). By trading LaFrentz (and with the cap supposedly increasing), we could clear enough space to sign a more useful free agent either this year or next year. For example, we could deal Raef LaFrentz and Delonte West for two of Houston's expiring contracts (David Wesley and Clarence Weatherspoon).

<table align="left" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="content">
 <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="500"><tbody><tr><td class="title_bl">*Houston Trade Breakdown*</td></tr><tr><td class="body_bl_np" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr> <td colspan="2" class="title_dt">*
Outgoing

*</td></tr> <tr><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="75">







</td><td class="tdpad" align="left" valign="top" width="425">Clarence Weatherspoon
6-7 SF from Southern Mississippi
3.1 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 0.4 apg in 13.1 minutes</td></tr><tr><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="75">









</td><td class="tdpad" align="left" valign="top" width="425">David Wesley
6-1 SG from Baylor
10.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 2.9 apg in 34.1 minutes</td></tr><tr> <td colspan="2" class="title_dt">*Incoming

*</td></tr> <tr><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="75">







</td><td class="tdpad" align="left" valign="top" width="425">Raef LaFrentz
6-11 C from Kansas
11.1 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 1.2 apg in 27.4 minutes</td></tr><tr><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="75">







</td><td class="tdpad" align="left" valign="top" width="425">Delonte West
6-4 PG from St. Joseph's
4.5 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 1.4 apg in 13.0 minutes</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="title_gr">*Change in team outlook:* +1.6 ppg, +3.0 rpg, and -0.7 apg.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="500"><tbody><tr><td class="title_bl">*Boston Trade Breakdown*

</td></tr><tr><td class="body_bl_np" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr> <td colspan="2" class="title_dt">*Outgoing

*</td></tr> <tr><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="75">







</td><td class="tdpad" align="left" valign="top" width="425">Raef LaFrentz
6-11 C from Kansas
11.1 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 1.2 apg in 27.4 minutes</td></tr><tr><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="75">







</td><td class="tdpad" align="left" valign="top" width="425">Delonte West
6-4 PG from St. Joseph's
4.5 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 1.4 apg in 13.0 minutes</td></tr><tr align="left"> <td colspan="2" class="title_dt">*
Incoming

*</td></tr> <tr><td class="tdpad" align="left" valign="top" width="75">







</td><td class="tdpad" align="left" valign="top" width="425">Clarence Weatherspoon
6-7 SF from Southern Mississippi
3.1 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 0.4 apg in 13.1 minutes</td></tr><tr><td class="tdpad" align="left" valign="top" width="75">







</td><td class="tdpad" align="left" valign="top" width="425">David Wesley
6-1 SG from Baylor
10.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 2.9 apg in 34.1 minutes</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="title_gr">*Change in team outlook:* -1.6 ppg, -3.0 rpg, and +0.7 apg.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="80%"><tbody><tr align="center"><td class="title_s">*Successful Scenario*</td></tr><tr align="center"><td class="body_s">Due to Houston and Boston being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Houston and Boston had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.</td></tr></tbody></table> 

​ </td></tr></tbody> </table> 

 *
Key:* *Player Option*/* Team Option */* Qualifying Offer */* 80% Scale Offer *

<table align="left" border="0" bordercolor="#ffffff" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr bgcolor="#003366"><td valign="top" width="20%">Player</td> <td valign="top" width="11%"> 2004/05​ </td> <td valign="top" width="11%"> 2005/06​ </td> <td valign="top" width="11%"> 2006/07​ </td> <td valign="top" width="13%"> 2007/08​ </td> <td valign="top" width="13%"> 2008/09​ </td> <td valign="top" width="13%"> 2009/10​ </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="0"> Raef LaFrentz​ </td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="0"> $9,710,000​ </td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="0"> $9,996,250​ </td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="0"> $10,905,000​ </td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="0"> $11,813,750​ </td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="0"> $12,722,500​ </td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top" width="0"> $0​ </td></tr></tbody> </table> 



<table align="left" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="772"> <tbody><tr bgcolor="#006532"><td colspan="14" class="statshead"> SEASON STATS: PER GAME </td><td colspan="3" class="statshead" align="center">REBOUNDS</td> <td colspan="2" class="statshead" align="center">
 </td> </tr> <tr align="right" bgcolor="#aaaaa4"> <td align="left">*YEAR*</td> <td>*G*</td> <td>*GS*</td> <td>*MIN*</td> <td>*FG*</td> <td>*FG%*</td> <td>*3P*</td> <td>*3P%*</td> <td>*FT*</td> <td>*FT%*</td> <td>*STL*</td> <td>*BLK*</td> <td>*TO*</td> <td>*PF*</td> <td>*OFF*</td> <td>*DEF*</td> <td>*TOT*</td> <td>*AST*</td> <td>*PTS*</td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ecece4"><td align="left"> 2004-2005</td><td align="right">80</td><td align="right">80</td><td align="right">27.5</td><td align="right">4.3-8.6</td><td align="right">.496</td><td align="right">1.0-2.8</td><td align="right">.364</td><td align="right">1.5-1.9</td><td align="right">.811</td><td align="right">0.53</td><td align="right">1.2</td><td align="right">0.9</td><td align="right">3.3</td><td align="right">1.9</td><td align="right">5.0</td><td align="right">6.9</td><td align="right">1.2</td><td align="right">11.1
</td></tr></tbody> </table>


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

He's not a bad player, but we're not going to get a good player for him. The best we can pray for is for a cap-clearing deal.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

LaFrentz's salary is handcuffing the franchise and will continue to do so as long as he's on the books. I don't like the idea of giving away young talent just to clear his deal. I honestly haven't the slightest clue what DA was thinking on this one. It's gonna be tough to get rid of him, too, because of his contract. Definitely gonna have to be some other form of enticement in there for another team to give up their expirers. Was there every any indications Raef would ever perform up to his salary? 

Well, I guess when he was a 15/7/3 guy he was playing well, but his injuries have really limited him. I was pleasantly surprised by Raef's season, though...although I'd like to see him learn a post move or two and hit the boards a little more.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

No, I would not trade Raef in a cap clearing deal and here's why:

It will not put us under the cap anytime in the next 2 years, with Vin Baker's compensation lingering, as well as Pierce's max deal. After 2 years, he may be injured for the rest of his career, but he will be tradeable because he'll only have 2 years left. Right now, he is the best big man (not counting 'Toine) that the franchise has and we need his minutes.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> although I'd like to see him learn a post move or two and hit the boards a little more.


It's amazing that Raef rebounded as well as he did this year without any knees.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Delontes Herpes said:


> It's amazing that Raef rebounded as well as he did this year without any knees.


I suppose that's true. LaFrentz was never a great rebounder, and he's in the neighborhood of his career avg. this year. If he mixed it up inside a little more instead of wandering the perimeter he'd collect more rebounds, and that's what I was saying. Unfortunately, that takes away the threat of his perimeter shooting. It's really a shame that Raef is so injury-prone. Call me crazy, but to this day I contend that without his injury problems he could've been a 15/9/2 kinda guy and a legitimate double-double threat every night out if he woulda stayed healthy. There's a reason he was picked before Vince Carter, Dirk Nowitzki, Paul Pierce, et al.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

I agree with you. Injuries definitely hurt his career. However, his perimeter play is a strength in his game and we're just going to have to live with it until we find better options at the 4/5 positions.

Also another reason why he was drafted ahead of those guys is because everyone's always looking for the next great big man and will take risks on borderline players with high draft picks.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Also another reason why he was drafted ahead of those guys is because everyone's always looking for the next great big man and will take risks on borderline players with high draft picks.


Raef LaFrentz wasn't a borderline player coming out of college, though. He finished 2nd in school history in points and rebounds (at a prestigous college in Kansas, no less), and was a two time All-American and Big 12 Player of the Year. Raef LaFrentz was not a borderline player coming outta college. Almost every draft prediction had him going Top 5, as I recall. 

Funny because he wasn't a perimeter player at all in college. NBA defense and injuries can really change your game, huh?


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## Anima (Jun 3, 2003)

P-Dub34 said:


> Funny because he wasn't a perimeter player at all in college. NBA defense and injuries can really change your game, huh?


NBA defenses? No. Dan Issel? Yes.

Issel ruined Raef by forcing him to play center and on the perimeter early in his career. Now every where he plays thats what people expect of him. 

IMO, if Issel never coached Raef he would be a much better, and different, player then he is now.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

LaFrentz was a phenomenal college player, but let's face it, if he was going to be the next tim duncan, or even the next elton brand, he would have gone #1 overall. He probably would have shaped up to be as good as anyone had hoped if he wasn't derailed by issel and injuries.

A better example of a borderline player going before bibby, VC, dirk, and pierce is kandi man. another one was traylor going 6th while pierce and dirk were still around.


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## Attila (Jul 23, 2003)

P-Dub34 said:


> There's a reason he was picked before Vince Carter, Dirk Nowitzki, Paul Pierce, et al.


 There was also a reason why Joe Smith was picked #1 in '95 draft, but it must have not been a very good one. The next four selections were Antonio McDyess, Jerry Stackhouse, Rasheed Wallace and Kevin Garnett.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Attila said:


> There was also a reason why Joe Smith was picked #1 in '95 draft, but it must have not been a very good one. The next four selections were Antonio McDyess, Jerry Stackhouse, Rasheed Wallace and Kevin Garnett.


I think you missed my point. I wasn't saying they picked him because he's a better player, but teams don't just waste picks. It's like the Darko Milicic situation. Obviously the team saw something that made them think that he would be better than guys like PP, Carter, Dirk, etc., and that's why they took him at No. 3.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Attila said:


> There was also a reason why Joe Smith was picked #1 in '95 draft, but it must have not been a very good one. The next four selections were Antonio McDyess, Jerry Stackhouse, Rasheed Wallace and Kevin Garnett.


Joe Smith was a monster in college. There is not one player in college this past year who was better than Joe Smith in college.

Some players don't adjust well to the NBA, others do.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

And there was also a reason why todd fuller went 11th and vitaly potapenko went 12th in 96. the next 5 picks were: Kobe, Peja, Nash, Delk, and Jermaine O'neal. And Ilgauskas went 3 picks after Jermaine O'Neal!

That sequence of picks amuses me more than any other sequence in any draft...well except for maybe lebron-darko-melo-bosh-wade.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> I suppose that's true. LaFrentz was never a great rebounder, and he's in the neighborhood of his career avg. this year. If he mixed it up inside a little more instead of wandering the perimeter he'd collect more rebounds, and that's what I was saying. Unfortunately, that takes away the threat of his perimeter shooting. It's really a shame that Raef is so injury-prone. Call me crazy, but to this day I contend that without his injury problems he could've been a 15/9/2 kinda guy and a legitimate double-double threat every night out if he woulda stayed healthy. There's a reason he was picked before Vince Carter, Dirk Nowitzki, Paul Pierce, et al


Yeah, they also traded a lottery pick for Ron Mercer. And drafted Skita. Yeah, they had a real sharp front office. 



P-Dub34 said:


> Funny because he wasn't a perimeter player at all in college. NBA defense and injuries can really change your game, huh?


7' beanpoles don't have a high rate of success banging bodies down low in the show. It took Issel about three days to realise that Raef wasn't going to repeat his college success against bigger, stronger, and more athletic players. He moved him onto the perimeter because that was the spot he was most likely to succeed. I'm all for hating on Issel, but you can't blame him for admitting the obvious.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Yeah, they also traded a lottery pick for Ron Mercer. And drafted Skita. Yeah, they had a real sharp front office.


Hindisight is 20/20, bud. All I'm saying is that obviously they believed that Raef LaFrentz was the best player available for them at that time.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

And they also believed that Ron Mercer and Skita were the best choices for them at the time. So what's your point? I'd say mine's pretty clear. :biggrin:


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> So what's your point?


My point is, it wasn't as stupid as you thought to take LaFrentz at #3. You act like it was the most retarded thing ever (which you can say now that you've seen the results), but you managed to forget at the time that Raef was coming off equally good (or better) seasons than Jamison, Carter, Pierce, and Hughes.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

P-Dub34 said:


> My point is, it wasn't as stupid as you thought to take LaFrentz at #3. You act like it was the most retarded thing ever (which you can say now that you've seen the results), but you managed to forget at the time that Raef was coming off equally good (or better) seasons than Jamison, Carter, Pierce, and Hughes.


Yes, but collegiate sucess doesn't always translate into potential NBA sucess. The general report on LaFrentz coming out of Kansas was that he wasn't strong and/or athletic enough to become a star. He didn't project to be anything greater than a serviceable starter and the Nuggets' management should of recognized this before they drafted him with a very high selection.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Premier said:


> Yes, but collegiate sucess doesn't always translate into potential NBA sucess.


Perhaps they felt he could work on his strength? 



> The general report on LaFrentz coming out of Kansas was that he wasn't strong and/or athletic enough to become a star.


Not from every draft board/article I read at the time.



> He didn't project to be anything greater than a serviceable starter and the Celtics' management should of recognized this before they drafted him with a very high selection.


Don't forget that "prime" LaFrentz was a 15/7/3 guy and without injuries he probably would've panned out into a very good player. I know I'm being picky, but the Nugs were the ones that drafted him, not the C's. And if Denver wouldn't have taken him, somebody else in the Top 10 would've.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

To get back to the topic, I don't see the point of dealing someone who plays well for cap unless you actually get under the cap. It will be a series of deals for that to happen.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> My point is, it wasn't as stupid as you thought to take LaFrentz at #3. You act like it was the most retarded thing ever (which you can say now that you've seen the results), but you managed to forget at the time that Raef was coming off equally good (or better) seasons than Jamison, Carter, Pierce, and Hughes.


He was a weak, soft player that relied on a size advantage over smaller players. He had _Average White Man_ written all over him.



P-Dub34 said:


> Don't forget that "prime" LaFrentz was a 15/7/3 guy and without injuries he probably would've panned out into a very good player.


I hate to break it to you, Raef's "prime" lasted exactly 51 games, a sample size _way_ too small to project out. Do we now get to say that the "prime" Mark Blount is a 14/10 guy?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> I hate to break it to you, Raef's "prime" lasted exactly 51 games, a sample size way too small to project out.


 His second year he was 12/8/2. The year after that he was 14/7/3 over 78 games. That's like 13ppg, 7.5rpg, 2.5bpg roughly, over 2 years, which isn't all that far off of my projection, and based on that, it's fair to say that had he avoided injury he could've been a 15/7/3 guy. 

I'm not saying LaFrentz should've been 3rd overall pick by any reasons...I'm just saying at the time it wasn't as crazy as you are all making it out to be. He was highly touted coming out of college and every draft board/article I read at the time was lauding him. And, unfortunately, Mark Blount is not a 14/10 guy. He wasn't last year, he wasn't for two years in a row (as Raef was to my stats), so that doesn't really hold water.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

I would not trade Raef simply for cap space - and especially if it menat losing young talent. Cap space does not do much for the Celtics - we are not a hot spot for FA's. In addition Raef had a nice year this year. People had him left for dead but he pretty much played the whole season and had a nice impact. He knows how to play the game and his outside shooting spread the floor nicely for the C's. I am happy with Raef.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Yes, to get back to the original topic, Raef had a very productive year this year and showed people that he could still play. You gotta respect him on the perimeter and often that helps other guys get opportunities. Also I haven't seen anybody give him his rightful props for doing a _very_ good job on Jermaine O'Neal, who is bigger, quicker, stronger, etc. etc. I know JO was hurt, but Raef still did a hell of a job.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

I voted no on this one. 

First of all, I think Raef played well this season. Getting good players is hard enough, and I think Raef is a valuable part of the team.

Secondly, I defy anyone to tell me when the Boston Celtics EVER wooed a quality free agent to town. Why are we clearing cap space? Nobody wants to come here.

I would, however, gladly trade Mark Blount for space. But not Raef.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> His second year he was 12/8/2. The year after that he was 14/7/3 over 78 games.


His final stat line for year 3 was 13.5/7.4/2.7, he was 14.9/7.4/3 for 51 games in Denver, that was his "prime" according to you. In Dallas he was 10.8/7.4/2.2, so his "prime" was over by the time he got there. There is no way to accurately gauge whether his performance in Denver was a predictor for his career or a fluke. If it's a predictor for a career, wheres the 14/10 Mark Blount? He has to be around here somewhere.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Truth34 said:


> Secondly, I defy anyone to tell me when the Boston Celtics EVER wooed a quality free agent to town. Why are we clearing cap space? Nobody wants to come here.
> 
> I would, however, gladly trade Mark Blount for space. But not Raef.


The Celtics have signed free agents every chance they had, the fact that they do it badly is a reflection on the team's management for the last fifteen years. No other sports franchise in town has trouble signing free agents. The Patriots find guys willing to play outdoor football in December and January in New England, so spare me the "free agents won't ever agree to come to Boston in any circumstances because nobody wants to play here," crap. That's just a tired Celtics ownership excuse for why they never sign the right guys (because they certainly threw cash at Sherman Douglas & Dana Barros amongst others). If you could move Blount & Lafrentz you do it. Lafrentz is moving in to the ridiculous out years of his contract, where he'll be giving MLE performance for a near max price. I don't think it's possible to move him, but if they could, you leap at the chance before the other guy comes to his senses.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> The Celtics have signed free agents every chance they had, the fact that they do it badly is a reflection on the team's management for the last fifteen years. No other sports franchise in town has trouble signing free agents. The Patriots find guys willing to play outdoor football in December and January in New England, so spare me the "free agents won't ever agree to come to Boston in any circumstances because nobody wants to play here," crap. That's just a tired Celtics ownership excuse for why they never sign the right guys (because they certainly threw cash at Sherman Douglas & Dana Barros amongst others). If you could move Blount & Lafrentz you do it. Lafrentz is moving in to the ridiculous out years of his contract, where he'll be giving MLE performance for a near max price. I don't think it's possible to move him, but if they could, you leap at the chance before the other guy comes to his senses.


Yes the Celtics sign free agents. That is not the point. The question is do good free agents/top free agents WANT to play in Boston. When was the last time you heard a top or even very good FA say Boston was on their list of places they want to play? Whatever the reasons are it just does not happen. The big reason recently would probably be that we have not been that great. Thanks to Danny this will change. But "dumping" Raef for cap space this offseason is not going to land us a nice FA.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Munro, you haven't named a quality free agent*

Again, I still defy anyone to name ONE quality free agent who ever signed in Boston to play for the Celtics. Don't bring the Patriots or the Red Sox or the Bruins up, I'm talking about the Celtics.

Dana Barros certainly doesn't count, and he is from Boston anyway.

Name one.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Munro, you haven't named a quality free agent*

Even though he was past his prime, Dominique Wilkins.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

*Re: Munro, you haven't named a quality free agent*



Premier said:


> Even though he was past his prime, Dominique Wilkins.


"past his prime" being the important part of that sentence. Googs used to be good as well.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*The question stands*

Again, I defy anyone to name ONE quality free agent that ever signed to play with the Boston Celtics.

Broken down 37 year old players don't count. Name just one. We tried this last year and nobody could name one. Please somebody enlighten me.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> His final stat line for year 3 was 13.5/7.4/2.7


Excuse me for rounding...



> 14.9/7.4/3 for 51 games in Denver, that was his "prime" according to you.


OK, I was wrong about his "prime" stats. What I should've said was his best stats.



> he was 10.8/7.4/2.2


When did he start getting injured? Also chalk one up to the fact that he was in foul trouble all the time...I mean you got guys blowing by Van Exel, Nowitzki, Nash, and Jamison routinely...somebody's gotta guard the net. 



> so his "prime" was over by the time he got there. There is no way to accurately gauge whether his performance in Denver was a predictor for his career or a fluke.


I maintain that had he avoided injury he could've been a 15/7/3 guy. He's got a great wingspan and without his knee injuries he'd have decent mobility and probably be a better rebounder too. You aren't going to convince me otherwise that LaFrentz coulda been a 15/7/3 player in this league, because I'm sold on it.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Munro, you haven't named a quality free agent*



Truth34 said:


> Again, I still defy anyone to name ONE quality free agent who ever signed in Boston to play for the Celtics. Don't bring the Patriots or the Red Sox or the Bruins up, I'm talking about the Celtics.
> 
> Dana Barros certainly doesn't count, and he is from Boston anyway.
> 
> Name one.



What part of "the fact that they do it badly is a reflection on the team's management for the last fifteen years," didn't you get? The team was capped out during the 80s, so they signed guys on the margin, like Walton, who could have made more elsewhere, but wanted another NBA title. Or Joe Kleine. I hate to break it to you, but Sherman Douglas was one of the top free agents in his class (which is why he got the 7 year contract from the Celtics). Barros was highly sought after, and ended up with 6/36 from Boston. Xavier McDaniel was only 29 when he arrived in Boston, and was expected to help return the Celtics to glory. You can stamp your feet and insist they didn't turn out the way that management expected, but then, neither did Edgar Renteria, does that mean that he wasn't a highly rated free agent? 

After Reggie Lewis' death (right _after_ signing a long term deal, which the NBA forced Boston to carry against its cap) and the Barros signing the Celtics were strapped to the cap again, and could only offer exception deals. I mean, what superstar in his right mind wouldn't want to take a paycut to play for one of the worst franchises in the NBA? Then came the Ricktator, who signed the highly sought after Travis Knight (don't ask me why), traded for impending free agent Vitaly Potapenko (giving him a lucrative contract extension in the process) and dealing Chauncey Billups for max player Kenny Anderson, which _again_ strapped the Celtics to the cap. Because of these idiotic moves Boston, _again_, only had exception contracts to offer to outside free agents. And what NBA superstar in his right mind would turn down a pay cut to play for a team that regularly competed for a top 10 draft pick? Is light beginning to dawn on Marblehead yet? Every time that Boston has had even a _little_ breathing room under the cap they immediately spent every dime on the best free agent they could acquire with their available coin. The fact that the moves have been, on the whole, bad ones, does not mean that Ainge will necessarily make a bad signing. And it doesn't mean that "no free agent will ever sign with the Celtics under any circumstances." Because they have, they do, and they will. You just need the room to sign them and choose them wisely.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> When did he start getting injured? Also chalk one up to the fact that he was in foul trouble all the time...I mean you got guys blowing by Van Exel, Nowitzki, Nash, and Jamison routinely...somebody's gotta guard the net.


Do you make this many excuses for Walker? By the way, Jamison played exactly one year in Dallas, last year.



P-Dub34 said:


> I maintain that had he avoided injury he could've been a 15/7/3 guy. He's got a great wingspan and without his knee injuries he'd have decent mobility and probably be a better rebounder too. You aren't going to convince me otherwise that LaFrentz coulda been a 15/7/3 player in this league, because I'm sold on it.


You're easily sold on a lot of dumb stuff. Lafrentz has _always_ been soft. His rebrate has never been as high as 13, seven boards is about all he's good for on a yearly average.


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: Munro, you haven't named a quality free agent*



ehmunro said:


> What part of "the fact that they do it badly is a reflection on the team's management for the last fifteen years," didn't you get? The team was capped out during the 80s, so they signed guys on the margin, like Walton, who could have made more elsewhere, but wanted another NBA title. Or Joe Kleine. I hate to break it to you, but Sherman Douglas was one of the top free agents in his class (which is why he got the 7 year contract from the Celtics). Barros was highly sought after, and ended up with 6/36 from Boston. Xavier McDaniel was only 29 when he arrived in Boston, and was expected to help return the Celtics to glory. You can stamp your feet and insist they didn't turn out the way that management expected, but then, neither did Edgar Renteria, does that mean that he wasn't a highly rated free agent?
> 
> After Reggie Lewis' death (right _after_ signing a long term deal, which the NBA forced Boston to carry against its cap) and the Barros signing the Celtics were strapped to the cap again, and could only offer exception deals. I mean, what superstar in his right mind wouldn't want to take a paycut to play for one of the worst franchises in the NBA? Then came the Ricktator, who signed the highly sought after Travis Knight (don't ask me why), traded for impending free agent Vitaly Potapenko (giving him a lucrative contract extension in the process) and dealing Chauncey Billups for max player Kenny Anderson, which _again_ strapped the Celtics to the cap. Because of these idiotic moves Boston, _again_, only had exception contracts to offer to outside free agents. And what NBA superstar in his right mind would turn down a pay cut to play for a team that regularly competed for a top 10 draft pick? Is light beginning to dawn on Marblehead yet? Every time that Boston has had even a _little_ breathing room under the cap they immediately spent every dime on the best free agent they could acquire with their available coin. The fact that the moves have been, on the whole, bad ones, does not mean that Ainge will necessarily make a bad signing. And it doesn't mean that "no free agent will ever sign with the Celtics under any circumstances." Because they have, they do, and they will. You just need the room to sign them and choose them wisely.


He steps back...shoots...YES! :clap:


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

Oh, I agree the franchise was mismanaged. No doubt about that. I mean, taking Travis Knight and forsaking David Wesley and Rick Fox is foolish. 

But Dana Barros, and Xavier McDaniel? Barros was not highly coveted. He was coming off an All-Star season chucking up shots for the worst team in the East, and Xavier McDaniel was over the hill.

I liked Sherm Douglas, but he did not come here via free agency. He refused to play in Miami, and we traded Brian Shaw for him.

The question stands. Yes, we were mismanaged, but nobody good has ever ELECTED to come here, and until Danny can change the culture, I don't think anybody will. 

I would be happy to trade Blount, because he's part of the problem. But I think we can wait a year on trading LaFrentz. What would we be clearing space for?


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Truth34 said:


> The question stands. Yes, we were mismanaged, but nobody good has ever ELECTED to come here, and until Danny can change the culture, I don't think anybody will.


As ehnumro so deferentially put, "what NBA superstar in his right mind would turn down a pay cut to play for a team that regularly competed for a top 10 draft pick"? Now that we might have money (after we trade LaFrentz) _and _we are a winning team, maybe we can change this.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Premier said:


> As ehnumro so deferentially put, "what NBA superstar in his right mind would turn down a pay cut to play for a team that regularly competed for a top 10 draft pick"? Now that we might have money (after we trade LaFrentz) _and _we are a winning team, maybe we can change this.


In order to have money under the cap, we would have to deal Raef, Blount, and Pierce, and probably Ricky as well. And that's without resigning Walker. That would leave us with Ainge's draft picks. These days its nearly impossible to have a winning team and cap room. I agree that if we had both, we could get an older FA to come (think Ray Allen but not Michael Redd for example), but we aren't going to have both.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Truth34 said:


> But Dana Barros, and Xavier McDaniel? Barros was not highly coveted. He was coming off an All-Star season chucking up shots for the worst team in the East, and Xavier McDaniel was over the hill.


McDaniel turned out to be over the hill, but he was still under 30 when he came to Boston, and Barros, indeed, was highly sought after, which is how he got the 6/36 from Boston. Back in 95 everyone expected Barros to have a breakout season after posting 13/5 numbers for Philly.



Truth34 said:


> I liked Sherm Douglas, but he did not come here via free agency. He refused to play in Miami, and we traded Brian Shaw for him.


It was a sign & trade deal, with Sherm agreeing to a 7 year $17 million extension. He could just as well have become an unrestricted free agent at season's end, but he decided that he wanted to play in Boston.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Just to say something about the Raef topic:

Aren't you supposed to buy low and sell high? Well Raef's as high as he'll get (until his contract year), so why not trade him? He was a big part of the Celtics this year, there's no way this team wins those 44/5 games they won without him. But he's hindering the Celtics ability to sign anyone.

Free Agents not coming to Boston:

Don't kid yourself, money speaks volumes. Today it's all the players care about. Even Jason Kidd, who btw wants a ring as bad as anyone, went with the money. Steve Nash, who loves the Mavs, went with the money. If someone offers you a 80 million contract, no one is going to turn it down for a 60 million one. As ehmunro has mentioned, ever time we did money it was spend on stupid signings, which put is in cap space hell for at least another 5/6 years. Then as we're about to clear cap space, we trade for another guy who had 45 million left on his deal. (Anders-Baker, Walker-Raef).


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> Do you make this many excuses for Walker?


You know what; you got me there. I _am_ making excuses for Raef. I got carried away trying to make a point. Apologies. I'm just saying that I don't think it was unreasonable to pick a guy who had such a promising college career at #3. That's what my original point was, and I got carried away.



> His rebrate has never been as high as 13, seven boards is about all he's good for on a yearly average.


If you can direct me to where I said Raef would be a 13 board guy, it'd be appreciated. I said a prime Raef coulda been a 15/7/3 guy. The 7 part being the rebouds.

Anyways, I admit I got over my head trying to make a point. Once again, my apologies.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

agoo101284 said:


> In order to have money under the cap, we would have to deal Raef, Blount, and Pierce, and probably Ricky as well. And that's without resigning Walker. That would leave us with Ainge's draft picks. These days its nearly impossible to have a winning team and cap room. I agree that if we had both, we could get an older FA to come (think Ray Allen but not Michael Redd for example), but we aren't going to have both.


If, by some miracle of God in Heaven, we could deal Lafrentz for van Exel (straight up) and decline NvE's option, while trading Blount & Tony Allen to Atlanta for a second round pick, Boston's payroll next year would be $31 million. Enough to make a run at Joe Johnson or Tyson Chandler (or even both if they acquired JJ for Ricky D in a sign & trade).


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> If you can direct me to where I said Raef would be a 13 board guy, it'd be appreciated. I said a prime Raef coulda been a 15/7/3 guy. The 7 part being the rebouds.


The RebRate



Basketball-reference.com said:


> *RebRate*
> Rebound rate (available since the 1973-74 season); the formula is (TRB * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm TRB + Opp TRB)), multiplied by 100. Rebound rate is an estimate of the percentage of missed shots a player rebounded while he was on the floor.


This equalises for time, so that you can accurately compare the rebounding of part time players with those of full time ones. For example, just by the numbers you'd get the impression that Walker was a much better rebounder than Lafrentz, he isn't. They're both RebRate 13 guys, meaning the majority of the difference between them is minutes played.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*You are wrong about Douglas*

Douglas was acquired as a straight trade; the Celtics wouldn't have had to give up Brian Shaw in that deal...whose contract was nowhere near what you claim. 

Check your facts before you start making stuff up to corroborate your points.

Barros was highly coveted....by Boston.


The question remains....name ONE QUALITY free agent who ever signed here.

I agree with you that Pitino and Chris Wallace were horrible at managing their free agent funds, but it doesn't change the fact that if money and talent is equal, players would rather go to Orlando, Miami, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Dallas and San Antonio over Boston.

Thank God we have Danny Ainge.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Sherman Douglas signed a seven year seventeen million dollar contract with Boston. Look it up. I'm sorry you don't like the fact that this undermines your claim, but the claim is pretty stupid to begin with. There are far worse places to play than Boston. Wisconsin & Minnesota are as highly taxed, and the weather is worse than anything you Bostonians can imagine during the basketball season. Urban pits? Can I hear a Philadelphia, anyone? How about a Cleveland? Can I get a shoutout for Oakland? How about the worst urban areas in the US, Detroit & Washington D.C.? Indianapolis & Houston may be the two dullest urban areas on the face of the planet, unless one counts Salt Lake City. And _none_ of these places has trouble finding guys that want to play there. All it takes is winning and money. And in Boston, no other sports franchise has problems finding guys to play here. Heck, the Celtics don't have any trouble finding guys that want to play here, they just tend to choose the wrong ones. Two of the local teams have players lining up for the chance to play here. So, you're making the claim that the Celtics are somehow unique, with no evidence aside from the incompetence of M.L. Carr, Rick Pitino, and Chris Wallace. All of which makes my case.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

I think we can agree on the incompetence of those 3 guys.

There may have been precedent of players coming to play for the Red Sox. The Patriots are unique because they are winning; if we ever get back to championship level....things may change.

In the free agency era....partly because of incompetence...partly because of other reasons, no quality free agent has ever come here. Ever.


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