# How good was KJ?



## Nikos (Jun 5, 2002)

How good was he compared to PGs of the last 15 years? Could he be a top PG in todays game?

What are your opinions?

Thanks!


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nikos</b>!
> How good was he compared to PGs of the last 15 years? Could he be a top PG in todays game?
> 
> What are your opinions?
> ...


Yes, one of the best offensive PGs ever. He put up big point and assist numbers. Very smooth player.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

KJ averaged around 20 points and 9.5 assists.

He even averaged over 10 assists and over 20 points in a season once.

KJ was really good, he had hops too, he dunked on Hakeem during the 93 playoffs. He reminds me of a superior version of a PRIME Terrel Brandon.


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## Joe Johnson #2 (Jan 23, 2004)

This is why I hate being young...I can't remember the 1993 Championship. Is there any place you can get tapes?


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

No PG in the league right now is close to KJ.


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## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> No PG in the league right now is close to KJ.


Damn Skippy.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

He was a tremendous talent that was put into a system that allowed him to put up big numbers. He just did what he was told. But i cant tell you how many times the Suns would come up the court and he would just take guys off the dribble and never pass. He was kind of a ball hog that way. And when he did pass, you had to be wide open for a J. When Phoenix added Barkley, KJs game started to unravel. What I also remember about him was how badly he was abused when it counted. Pax and BJ made mince meat out of him and the Bulls used his tendency to over dribble to their advantage in the finals. I played KJ a couple of times in pickup games at ASU. I can tell you that there has never been a quickler or faster player in the NBA since him, but I can also tell you he was as smug a person as youll ever meet. He put up great stats but his team never reached greatness until Barkley came, and KJ couldnt mesh with him at all. And CB wasnt a huge KJ fan either


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## ballstorm (Nov 30, 2003)

I remember a huge barkley's block on KJ when barkley was (i think) in Houston. KJ clearly attempted to posterize Charles who made a great jump to save his honor . This action symbolises pretty well the antagonism between the two men.


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## MightyReds2020 (Jul 19, 2002)

Think Starbury.

I have to admit Starbury is at least as good as what KJ was during his prime, eventhough I don't like Starbury and KJ was one of my favorite players.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> He was a tremendous talent that was put into a system that allowed him to put up big numbers. He just did what he was told. But i cant tell you how many times the Suns would come up the court and he would just take guys off the dribble and never pass. He was kind of a ball hog that way. And when he did pass, you had to be wide open for a J. When Phoenix added Barkley, KJs game started to unravel. What I also remember about him was how badly he was abused when it counted. Pax and BJ made mince meat out of him and the Bulls used his tendency to over dribble to their advantage in the finals. I played KJ a couple of times in pickup games at ASU. I can tell you that there has never been a quickler or faster player in the NBA since him, but I can also tell you he was as smug a person as youll ever meet. He put up great stats but his team never reached greatness until Barkley came, and KJ couldnt mesh with him at all. And CB wasnt a huge KJ fan either


Well that's a pretty spot on analysis, but the Suns were very, very good with KJ before Barkley came over and they had Horny, but obviously having a guy like Chuck vs. Jeff is going to improve your team. Barkely put them over the top. If they had had Barkley when Chambers was in his prime they would have won championships. Johnson also turned a 28-54 into a 55-27 team his first season in Phoenix, and that's when Phoenix LOST their two best players in Larry Nance and Walter Davis, but added Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers. (Chambers was awesome, but Nance was nearly as good at the time)

I've seen some of KJ's games on ESPN Classic from the late 80's during the Suns playoff runs with Chambers, KJ, Eddie Johnson, Hornacek, and Armen Gilliam and also watched him a lot during the mid 90's.. He had some injuries that slowed him down (even though in his twilight he was still very fast), but he adapted his game and turned into a good outside shooter the last 2-3 years of his career..

If he was playing today in his prime, imagine Steve Francis on speed, but smaller.. He had those kind of moves but was much faster than Francis and was almost as good of a leaper, on top of being a much, much more efficient/better scorer. 

I agree with BigAmare.. from what I've seen of him during his prime he looks way better than any point guard I watch today.. but then again that's not saying much since there are really only 3 or 4 respectable points in the league today..


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## PhatDaddy3100 (Jun 16, 2002)

KJ is the best PG in suns history. YEs even better than kidd. From what i remember he was a Jason Kidd that could score. he could push the pall and played ok defense. SO think Starbury but a person that passed more. He was a great player and was the second best player on our team in the finals year. And I dont think KJ was a ball hog seeing how Barkley led our team in scoring...


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## nfldraftking (Jan 30, 2004)

KJ played that whole 93 playoffs with a torn hammy, so let's not get carried away with Paxson and BJ Armstrong schooled him talk.

As far as him today, he'd be one of the top PG's in the league. The way defenses are now, he'd very difficult to stop. He could pull up and knock down the open jumper, he could blow defender's and when defender's would collapse down on him he'd hit an open teammate. Very tough to guard.

KJ was more of an AI kind of player in the sense that his first choice was to take it to the hole. He didn't have AI's toughness or his strength, but he was an awsome offensive player. As mentioned before, he did average 20-10 (3 times).


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>nfldraftking</b>!
> KJ played that whole 93 playoffs with a torn hammy, so let's not get carried away with Paxson and BJ Armstrong schooled him talk.
> 
> As far as him today, he'd be one of the top PG's in the league. The way defenses are now, he'd very difficult to stop. He could pull up and knock down the open jumper, he could blow defender's and when defender's would collapse down on him he'd hit an open teammate. Very tough to guard.
> ...


In games 1 and 2, he had MORE TURNOVERS then POINTS. He was schooled. This isnt trolling, this is a fact. 

He was a top PG but lets not include him among the alltime greats. He was far too Me First to be considered a great player, at any position


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

KJ wasn't me first, get a clue.

Charles was much much more of a ball hog. And KJ was it who turned around this franchise in the late 80s.

Not an alltime great? The only PGs who could have matched KJ in his prime would be Stockton, Magic and Big O probably. What did KJ average 20+ppg 12+apg 50%+FG? And his best day were ahead of him if he hadn't been injured.


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> He was a top PG but lets not include him among the alltime greats. He was far too Me First to be considered a great player, at any position


Are u SERIOUS? I agree with big amare, u really havent seen KJ play much. Youre probably judging from seeing him once or twice. 

Dude KJ is one of those extreamly rare guards. Much like Gary Payton in that, KJ was a PURE point guard, who could score. He wasnt a scoring point guard, or a shooting guard in a point guards body like Francis. 

He was a Pure point, he could run offenses to a T. He made everyone around him better, and could score at will. I'd even go as far as say he was one of the best point guards in the history of the game.

The only reason Cleveland got rid of him was because they had Mark price at the time, if they knew what would follow, they would have definatly kept KJ. Even though KJ played well when Price was out, Price was a superstar back then and the cavs had faith in his return. oh well, good for the suns!

I dont call Marbury a pure point, no matter how many assists he hands out. He just doesnt have that ability to carry his team by being a floor general like Kidd, KJ or even TJ Ford SEEMS to have.

In all my years, i have never seen a PURE point guard, who was so athletic, and could score at will. Extremely rare. And that was in a nutshell, Kevin Johnson. 

Hire out some videos, from ur store, I found quite a few at HMV and i live in australia, basically about KJ and his injuries, or about the suns finals run.


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## nfldraftking (Jan 30, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> In games 1 and 2, he had MORE TURNOVERS then POINTS. He was schooled. This isnt trolling, this is a fact.
> ...




Again, he played the ENTIRE 93 playoffs with a torn hamstring. Do you have any idea how painfull that is? The fact the was able to play is remarkable. I'll give you this, he didn't have a great series, but to say he was outplayed by John Paxson and BJ Armstrong is ridiculous.


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

also do u know he had a record minutes played in one game and series or something like that. im pretty sure it was 55 minutes or something crazy like that.


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## peleincubus (Sep 27, 2002)

I remember that dunk on Hakeem. But does anyone here rememeber that block he had on Kevin Johnson against the backboard.

Man those 2 teams had some great playoff series. I wish i could see some of them again.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

KJ a ball hog?

He likes to score, but he didnt put up 20-25 shots a night to do it.

He would average around 15 shots, with the occasional 20+ shots every now and then.

Phoenix was never a very popular team until Barkley got there and brought them to the finals. Thats one reason, many people didnt get to see KJ in his greatness. He's definitely top 15 all-time point guards... even top 10 in my eyes.

Upon his retirement, KJ was actually just behind Stockton in all-time assists... in terms of active players back then.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

While KJ was a good player, let's not get ahead of ourselves on a Jason Kidd comparision. Kidd has been the best PG in the league for the past 6 years, including this year. Kidd has been the best defensive PG in the league, and the best rebounding PG to boot.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

rlucas4257
you are a troll, either that or didn't see KJ play much

KJ was an amazing player, and he shot good shots, thats why he has such a high FG % for a PG,


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Kidd's defense is way overrated. He is versatile but quick PGs torch him.

KJ was a lot better than Kidd in his prime. KJ was every bit as good of a passer, better leader and in a whole different galaxy offensively.


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## MightyReds2020 (Jul 19, 2002)

Let me reframe: KJ was like a Starbury who has found the fine line between passing and getting teammates involved but at the same time don't jeopordised his scoring ability. He was that good. He was a HOF-shoe-in if not for his injury-cut-short career.

By the way, I don't think he was THAT MUCH BETTER than Kidd. This is like comparing John Stockton and Isiah Thomas, two completely different type of players who played the same position.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> While KJ was a good player, let's not get ahead of ourselves on a Jason Kidd comparision. Kidd has been the best PG in the league for the past 6 years, including this year. Kidd has been the best defensive PG in the league, and the best rebounding PG to boot.


Kidd is amazing, he is truelly a versatile point guard. But you have to take into account that KJ was more effective in the offensive side.

KJ averaged 20+ points 12+ assists whilst shooting just under 50% from the field. He also was a 85%+ freethrow shooter.

KJ averaged 20+ and 10+ in 3 straight years. He is a career 17.9 ppg and 9.7 apg. He was and IS better than Kidd in the offensive end. Obviously as a running pg, Kidd is more exciting, Kidd is probably the best ball "pusher" since Magic.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

"best PG in the league for the past 6 years,"

Kidd the best pg the last 6 years? I don't think so, now you are just revising history.

GP was definately better then kidd in the late 90's still


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KennethTo</b>!
> rlucas4257
> you are a troll, either that or didn't see KJ play much
> 
> KJ was an amazing player, and he shot good shots, thats why he has such a high FG % for a PG,


considering i played against him a handful of times in pickup, I would think I would know just a bit more then you. If that makes me a troll so be it. The fact is, with KJ on the Suns, you could figure 10-12 possesions a game where a single pass was never made. KJ might have handed out alot of assts but he still wasnt good for ball movement. KJ also was not an easy person to get along with. Barkley didnt like him, Majerle wasnt thrilled with him either. 

When you compare stats with Kidd, its a joke. Kidd shows up when it counted. The finals. In KJs one stint in the finals, he was absolutely embarrassed. Now 20 pts 12 assts vs Kidds stats. You have to take into account the eras they played in. The suns were able to put up 110-120 on any given night back then. Defenses werent played and in that era the west was a bit of a mini joke. put KJ on say the Knicks back then within the confines of a half court offense and he doesnt do so hot. Also, KJ was not a threat from down town whatsover

what i will say about KJ was inspite of his selfishness, he was the fastest guy in the last 15 years in the NBA. easily. He could drive on anyone. And he didnt have any fear taking it and finishing at the basket. He got to the line a fair amount for a little man. But his D wasnt good, he was let go by Cleveland for mark price (who was probably a better player) and KJ really struggled within the confines of a good team cause of his propensity to over dribble and shoot at the first chance he got. Like I said, he puts up lots of nice stats on so so teams. when Barkley turned that city into a near winner, KJ fell off. In fact, I do remember Frank Johnson finishing alot of games in the place of our top 10 alltime PG KJ

Troll or no troll. These are pretty much facts. To say he was a Jason Kidd or a Gary Payton is a joke. A good modern day comparison is your own ex pg, Stephon Marbury. Which means he is somewhere between the 7th and 12th best PG in the league


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Here are some more of rlucas opinions

Emeka Okafor is better than Amare Stoudemire.
Mickael Pietrus will be the Euro-Jordan, a mix of Ray Allen and Desmond Mason.
Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler are not only much better with better upside they also have more skill while Amare can only finish plays with dunks.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

I used to love watching the Suns with KJ, and he was one of my favorite players. I was too young to really understand the game back then, but I can say that KJ was one hell of a player. He was fearless taking it to the rack. I don't think he had the court vision of Kidd or TJ Ford, but he had the quickness and outside J. 

I would compare him most to Marbury and Iverson. I think these two players can play the point guard position. I don't understand why Marbury is not a "pure" point guard. Just because he can score better than most shooting guards that then makes him "unpure". I think Marbury is the best point guard in the league right now.


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## PhatDaddy3100 (Jun 16, 2002)

KJ has one of the top 5 dunks in playoff history (one over Olojuwon). He was abosuletly fearless going ot the basket. He had the Offensive game of Marbury and the Court presence of Kidd. And i have said it once and will say it again. He is the best PG in suns history. Better than both Kidd and Marbury when they were here.


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