# OT: something I heard on the news, arghhh...



## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

southern oregon radical libs hate US flag


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

You know u gotta have some freedom when you can put your country down like that and not get hung or imprisoned


Maby that woman should go live in Libia or China or India and realize how lucky she is to have the money to send her kids to a private school and give them the chance to succede in life and be a free person


Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........i hate people like that, if u dont like what our country is doing, stop complaining and do something. Run for governor or try to get in congress or DO SOMETHING...DONT JUST COMPLAIN!!!!!





AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Here are 6 steps to greater understanding for Ms. Bungay.

1: Go to www.orbitz.com

2a: Purchase a one way ticket to Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of Congo.
2b: Fly to Kinshasa.

3a: Get a taxi cab.
3b: Take the taxi cab to the town square.

4: Start complaining loudly about the government.

5: Get abducted for 'questioning' by local authorities.

6: End up in an unmarked grave just outside of town with a thousand other people who questioned the government.

I don't agree with everything our country does, but this woman clearly is off her nut and has no perspective on life elsewhere. We have it pretty good here in the US.


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## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

maybe she'd rather have this flag


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

People are crazy generally, and some people are just crazy in different ways. I'd rather have people who disagree get to talk about it than go into their basement and start working on bombs.

Ed O.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Thats some funny stuff


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> "According to Bungay, the flag does not represent a symbol of diversity. It has become a brand or logo for what she feels is an imperialist nation.
> 
> "I feel our country is on a strong push towards imperialism and we're not a democratic nation anymore," Bungay said. "I want to raise my children to be citizens of the world and the flag does not represent ideals I want to instill in my children. It represents dominance, greed, corporate power and not freedom. I think it even represents commercialism and consumerism."


Yeah, we're a terrible country. We stand for all the worst things. That's why millions of Mexicans try to come across our borders every year. That's why Cubans get in leaky boats or swim through shark-infested waters just to get here. That's why immigrants line up for visas at every embassy in New York. 

This woman has a right to her opinion, of course, but she's an idiot. She probably thinks the Soviet Union was a shining example of nationhood. Fidel Castro is undoubtedly her hero. There are hundreds of thousands of disguised communists/socialists just like her in this country. They can't openly state what they are, so they use terms like "citizen of the world" and "evil consumerism." They hate the U.S, they hate anybody who is successful, they want all mention of God removed from society, and they always root for our enemies in every war.


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ThatBlazerGuy</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Maby that woman should go live in Libia or China or India and realize how lucky she is to have the money to send her kids to a private school and give them the chance to succede in life and be a free person



actually its a partially private school and partially public. I know they receive money from the public school fund down there, so that is why they have to add the flag (it is req'd by law). 

so not only is that person hateful of the flag and what it "represents" but they are also spitting in the face of the rest of us people that pay taxes and love America, the same tax money they get for free to help educate their children at this school.

I don't want my money going to that school.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> "People are crazy generally, and some people are just crazy in different ways."


Ah, that's profound. So I guess we're all just as crazy as any child molestor, serial killer, or raving lunatic in a straight jacket. There's really no difference between those folks and people who go to work every day, pay their taxes, love their children, and help their neighbors.

Uh, huh.


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

lol at Talkhard....

true....brutal.

:yes:


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> 
> Ah, that's profound. So I guess we're all just as crazy as any child molestor, serial killer, or raving lunatic in a straight jacket. There's really no difference between those folks and people who go to work every day, pay their taxes, love their children, and help their neighbors.
> 
> Uh, huh.


Are you trying to make a point? If so, would you be so kind as to tell me what it has to do with the point that *I* made?

To equate someone who takes an unpopular political position with a person who kills someone or molests a child is ridiculous. To think that I was saying that she's in that class, and that it's OK for people to be crazy to the point of physical (unprotected) activities is asinine.

Of course I was talking about SPEECH. I was not talking about the right to rape. Or to kill. Or to steal.

Anyone who takes a position ALWAYS takes the chance of having it be an unpopular one. If you polled anyone, there is a good chance of that person being extreme in their beliefs one way or the other... it might be believing in aliens, or in thinking that a star chamber runs the world, or that the UN is evil.

The person who doesn't want the flag flown seems to be one voice of many in her community, so maybe it's not even that unpopular in her area, but even if it WERE a lone voice, to state that she should go to a less free country so she could learn how great this country is simply is a position that I find to be as bad an idea as the one she's expounding.

Ed O.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

Ed O--Here's a hint. Don't make a stupid post if you don't want to get any flak. You claimed that everyone is crazy, just in different ways. That argument is, by itself, absurd. That's the point.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> Ed O--Here's a hint. Don't make a stupid post if you don't want to get any flak. You claimed that everyone is crazy, just in different ways. That argument is, by itself, absurd. That's the point.


Your hint doesn't really have much relevence here, because I don't see me catching any flak. I see you posting a non sequitor in response to part of my original post.

And you haven't really given any reasons why I'm wrong... or why my post is "stupid". You tried to use some sort of weak straw man to make your point because you're either unable or unwilling to use common sense and logic.

Being crazy doesn't mean hacking people up (necessarily). It doesn't mean touching children inappropriately (necessarily).

And paying taxes or loving one's kids doesn't mean that a person is immune from idiosyncracies that makes them different from the the majority of the rest of the population.

Everyone *is* crazy in different ways. That's a truism, IMO.

There are many different ways for people to deviate from the norm (being "crazy"). I've listed just a couple of ways in my previous post. Religious fundamentalism, hypochondriacism, and latex fetishism are just a few more. Posting on a bulletin board several times a day about a professional basketball team might be another.

Ed O.


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i see it differently, i see that person as someone with extreme, myopic and even dangerous ideas that I certainly don't subscribe to and I would be willing to wager that the vast majority like over 90% of the people in the US don't agree with. Since her views are in regards the essence of being American and what that means, I think it is very relevant to suggest that this extremely biased person would be well served by learning in another country just how lucky she is to be in this country and to be a free citizen of this country where no one will chop her hand off or shoot her on site for not wearing a burkha or speaking her mind.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

LOL

The reason Ed O. alwasy wins in verbal fights is he is alwasy on the Blazer boards while other people generally are busy doing other things


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tommyboy</b>!
> 
> i see it differently, i see that person as someone with extreme, myopic and even dangerous ideas that I certainly don't subscribe to and I would be willing to wager that the vast majority like over 90% of the people in the US don't agree with. Since her views are in regards the essence of being American and what that means, I think it is very relevant to suggest that this extremely biased person would be well served by learning in another country just how lucky she is to be in this country and to be a free citizen of this country where no one will chop her hand off or shoot her on site for not wearing a burkha or speaking her mind.


So she's supposed to learn how open and liberal we are with our speech by going to a place where she's physically harmed for what she's "free" to say here?

Is that like a parent showing their kid how kind they are by sending them off to boot camp?

Or is it different that we're only TALKING about shipping her elsewhere? Like it'd be OK for a parent to say, "I'll give you something to cry about!" as they menaced their kid?

As an intellectual exercise, I agree that she SHOULD see how lucky she is (we are) to live here and how by the exercising of her right she seems to be undercutting her own position.

But she either doesn't see this or thinks that freedom of speech doesn't rectify the other sins she sees being committed in the name of the U.S.

Is she biased? Almost certainly. But so are we. I don't think that bias has much to do with it. She just disagrees with us, which is her right. 

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ThatBlazerGuy</b>!
> 
> The reason Ed O. alwasy wins in verbal fights is he is alwasy on the Blazer boards while other people generally are busy doing other things


I'm just good at multi-tasking.



Ed O.


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

i'm not advocating shipping her off.

I'm suggesting that if she's so unhappy then she should voluntarily leave and find a better situation for herself. One of the situations she might want to check out just to get a little flavor of how good it really is here would be Afghanistan or maybe Uganda


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

I don't know why everyone is automatically hating on this lady. For some, America does stand for oppression, dominance, greed, etc...but this woman can't equate everything bad about America with the flag. The flag also stands for freedom and our hard working troops, and you can't just forget about that just because of other qualms you may have with it. But (and don't take it the wrong way please) the typical white, middle class male in America is going to have less problems with America than women, minorities, etc...it's not fair to expect NO ONE to EVER say anything against America just because it's better than any other country. America looks a lot different to someone whose family came over through slavery, or an immigrant who has to take all the crap jobs, or a woman who gets disrespected. That said, America offers unparalleled opportunities to all, though not always equal, and great freedom. I hope this lady has counted her blessings before taking this stance. But it isn't right to tell this lady to leave the country just because she has a qualm with it. She comes from a different perspective and culture, and has been treated differently in the country. But it's definitely not fair to our troops, founding fathers, and honest Americans for their symbol to get overlooked just because of other problems.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

She *is* insane. She'd be better off emulating the people who want to deport anyone who criticizes this country, because God knows this country has reached perfect enlightenment and can't stand to be improved at all.

After all, she should realize something: Saying that the US is flawed in any way is *exactly* the same thing as saying that all other countries in the world are superior and so should go move there.

I think the best characteristic of this country is the *simultaneous* love for the *right* to freedom of speech and the contempt for anyone who actually dares exercise that right.

We have freedom of speech...but you're a hateful nutcase if you use it, and you'd probably prefer to live in Iraq.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Right on.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> "America looks a lot different to someone whose family came over through slavery . . . "


It sure does. Blacks in America have a higher standard of living than blacks in any other country in the world. In fact, there are African nations where blacks are STILL being enslaved by their fellow blacks. And if they're not being enslaved, they're being wiped out by AIDS, or Ebola, or starvation. If you're black, and you live in America, you should thank your lucky stars.



> " . . . or an immigrant who has to take all the crap jobs . . .


A lot of immigrants come here because the "crap jobs" are better than any job they can find in their own country--if they can even find one. Most of them are grateful to live in a land where they can start at the bottom and work their way up. And many do. It's called the American success story. 



> " . . . or a woman who gets disrespected."


You want to see women get disrespected? Go to Iraq, or Iran, or Kuwait, or any Middle Eastern country. Women in the U.S. get a great deal of respect. They have more choices, more freedoms, and a higher standard of living than women in almost any other country. We've practically made a religion out of giving women respect.


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

its really a simple concept folks, if the woman is so ashamed of the American flag and what it stands for then why doesn't she go find some other place she can be more proud of.


nobodys forcing her, its just a question and I sincerely would like to ask it to her and find out her response. 

I can't imagine staying in a country or a city or a place that I despised so much that I wouldn't even want to acknowledge a basic honor such as the flag of that place. I mean really, why would anyone remain in a place they felt so negatively about?


can anyone answer that one?


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> She *is* insane. She'd be better off emulating the people who want to deport anyone who criticizes this country, because God knows this country has reached perfect enlightenment and can't stand to be improved at all.
> 
> After all, she should realize something: Saying that the US is flawed in any way is *exactly* the same thing as saying that all other countries in the world are superior and so should go move there.
> ...


where in that rambling sarcasm can I find the part about the law of the state gov't being subject to negotiation by a small radical group of free speechers? I must have missed that part.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

She gave her opinion about not wanting the flag up there. It being a law is irrelevant. Lots of people have problems with lots of laws. Do you tell people who detest Affirmative Action laws, "It's the law folks, don't dare question it"? Or pick a law you dislike and subsitute that.

It's interesting that when conservatives question the country, about affirmative action or immigration or cutting defense spending, it's a perfectly reasonably endeavour. When liberals question the country (in this case, this woman is clearly taking issue with foreign policy when she calls the flag a symbol of imperialism), it's traitorous and love it or leave it...at least according to conservatives.

Of course, I'm sure liberals do the same in reverse.

It would be quite a concept if both persuasions of political camp could comprehend being civil about the other's right to an opinion. Argue it, debate it...but this "love it or leave it" sentiment is pure, unsophisticated thought.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tommyboy</b>!
> I can't imagine staying in a country or a city or a place that I despised so much that I wouldn't even want to acknowledge a basic honor such as the flag of that place. I mean really, why would anyone remain in a place they felt so negatively about?
> 
> 
> can anyone answer that one?


Uh, economic reasons? Family ties or obligations? Lack of better alternatives? 

barfo


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> She gave her opinion about not wanting the flag up there. It being a law is irrelevant. Lots of people have problems with lots of laws. Do you tell people who detest Affirmative Action laws, "It's the law folks, don't dare question it"? Or pick a law you dislike and subsitute that.


i fail to see what affirmative action has to do with honoring and respecting symbols of your country, or infringing upon other members of the publics right to do so freely because you and your group personally believe those symbols represent evil.
there is no correlation one could draw, nice try though.

a better example would have been you believe that handicap parking is evil and your small radical group agrees with you and furthermore your small radical group owns a co-op grocery store that refuses to create even one handicap parking space near the store because they believe they are evil. Their personal views would be clashing with state laws and general common decency. That would be more along the lines of what happened in Ashland.
Don't forget the fact that school is on the public dole. If they had a private school on private land I'd say do whatever they want but still think they were fruity thinkers with very shallow arguments. I mean one simple refuation of that lady's argument I'm sure you understand would be that the American flag doesn't just stand for the myriad of bad things she mentioned. It also stands for many good things. It stands for all of it, good and bad. TO filter out the good in favor of the bad is very shallow I'm sure you would agree.






> It's interesting that when conservatives question the country, about affirmative action or immigration or cutting defense spending, it's a perfectly reasonably endeavour. When liberals question the country (in this case, this woman is clearly taking issue with foreign policy when she calls the flag a symbol of imperialism), it's traitorous and love it or leave it...at least according to conservatives.
> 
> Of course, I'm sure liberals do the same in reverse.


i would be equally critical to both conservatives and liberals on the issue of simple respect for the flag. I mean, you may not like the flag personally and that's ok with me, but is it really so hard to just acknowledge its existence. Its the only one this nation has. To refuse to fly it based on faulty, negative, emotional logic is absurd no matter the person's liberal or conservative leanings, IMO, especially on publicly owned property. 




> It would be quite a concept if both persuasions of political camp could comprehend being civil about the other's right to an opinion. Argue it, debate it...but this "love it or leave it" sentiment is pure, unsophisticated thought.


my level of contempt is proportional to the absurdity of the argument. Arguing emotional one sided vitriol in regards to a simple symbol like that lady from Ashland did just leaves a person wide open to ridicule and rightly so. If I were to claim the US flag stands for nothing but peace, love, tranquility, harmony, freedom, nobility and moral justice and that all buildings in this country should be required to fly it daily, I would be rightly ridiculed as lost in space, kooky, and radical.

but what irks me the most about that womans attitude is that she is so negative towards this collection of people that is the US but has no problem taking the peoples money to help educate her child. Talk about hypocritical.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

A lot of Blazers fans spend more time ripping the team than they do actually cheering the it... why do they remain fans? And why is it not fair to say to every person who is negative about the team that they should go root for another team?

A nation is obviously MUCH more complex than a sports team in terms of positives and negatives, but even in the simplistic world of pro sports, "Love it or leave it" doesn't make sense.

Ed O.


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> A lot of Blazers fans spend more time ripping the team than they do actually cheering the it... why do they remain fans? And why is it not fair to say to every person who is negative about the team that they should go root for another team?
> 
> A nation is obviously MUCH more complex than a sports team in terms of positives and negatives, but even in the simplistic world of pro sports, "Love it or leave it" doesn't make sense.
> ...



I'm sorry but trying to compare being a fan of a team to being a citizen of a sovereign nation, well lets just say that's a road I'm not even going to try to take.

first of all, it is highly highly likely you are born into citizenship and have no choice in the matter whereas being a fan is by nature a choice.


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> It sure does. Blacks in America have a higher standard of living than blacks in any other country in the world. In fact, there are African nations where blacks are STILL being enslaved by their fellow blacks. And if they're not being enslaved, they're being wiped out by AIDS, or Ebola, or starvation. If you're black, and you live in America, you should thank your lucky stars.


Oh thanks for letin me know jus how lucky I be masta Talkhard.

Im's show is glad I dont live in one dems countries.

..well ei's be lettin you get back to yoe studies masta, Im's a gona go pick me sum cotton.

(Did that cover enough "lucky stars" for you :upset: )


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## brewmaster (Dec 31, 2002)

She's insane, she's crazy, she's stupid, and she just plain SUCKS!

But you know what? To be insane, crazy, and stupid is actually her right in this country.

Sure, it pisses me off, too. But it's her right.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

Thats why i love the USA. 

I just get angry when other people dont realize how lucky they are.


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh thanks for letin me know jus how lucky I be masta Talkhard.
> ...



that's pretty racist. why don't you call him cracker as well, maybe honky or ******...

I'm surprised your post passed the Community Standards test, really. I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate a poster addressing you as though you were a slave so I'm not clear on how its appropriate for you to address another poster as though they are a slave master.


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## trifecta (Oct 10, 2002)

The article (and there are tons of them because the media seems able to dig up this type of opinion on a whim) generally disappoints me and perhaps, I even feel a bit sorry for the 'victim'. Afterall, how would you like to be in a position in which you feel like you hate your current environment yet know in your heart that no better environment exists -- anywhere.

Seems pretty hopeless and bleak.

I do wish that these people would keep their opinions about the flag, god or the nation to themselves but upon furthur consideration there's something that I worry about even more...

That these same clowns (yes, anyone who disagrees with me is a clown IMO) will NOT always be able to spout their opinion on whatever subject freely.

We will always have the common sense to laugh at them but I'd hate to see our ability to state our opinion freely, taken away.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tommyboy</b>!
> 
> i fail to see what affirmative action has to do with honoring and respecting symbols of your country


It has to do with the significance of it being "the law," as you pointed out, like it had some significance. Here's your quote since you seem to have already lost connection with it:

_where can I find the part about the law of the state gov't being subject to negotiation by a small radical group of free speechers?_

Since you now seem to realize that the "law of the state gov't" argument isn't strong, since many people, conservative and liberal, protest laws, we'll turn to your other argument.



> or infringing upon other members of the publics right to do so freely because you and your group personally believe those symbols represent evil.


How did she infringe upon the rights of other members of the public, again? Giving an opinion you disagree with is now a public rights infringement?



> a better example would have been you believe that handicap parking is evil and your small radical group agrees with you and furthermore your small radical group owns a co-op grocery store that refuses to create even one handicap parking space near the store because they believe they are evil. Their personal views would be clashing with state laws and general common decency. That would be more along the lines of what happened in Ashland.


Your attempts to paint this as comparable to a stand that hurt other people is commendable in the scope of hyperbole, even if it has no rational basis. You *did* hold off from comparing this to axe-murdering, so I guess that's a start.

If the American flag's presence allowed disadvantaged people to live their lives more easily, then your handicapped parking example might hold some water. But as you note later, it's "just a symbol" meant for "honoring." It doesn't help certain people with disadvantages better use the school.



> I mean one simple refuation of that lady's argument I'm sure you understand would be that the American flag doesn't just stand for the myriad of bad things she mentioned. It also stands for many good things. It stands for all of it, good and bad. TO filter out the good in favor of the bad is very shallow I'm sure you would agree.


Ah, finally a good, rational argument, minus the insults like "fruity." I do agree that the flag doesn't just stand for one bad thing, and I imagine if you put that point to her she'd agree. My guess is, just as *you* realize that the flag has overseen some bad things by this country but overall feel the flag stands for Liberty, Justice or some other good things, she probably feels that while it also stands for good things, the biggest thing it stands for is Imperialism.

Which is hardly a ridiculous stand. America *has* been an imperial power, as have most superpowers, from Rome through Great Britain. The US has generally used economic power, rather than military might, to subjugate other countries, but it has also used military might and the CIA to knock down governments they didn't care for and install more America-friendly ones. Iraq is just the latest example.

That doesn't mean I think America is contemptable or loathsome, nor does that lady from Ashland, I'd bet. In my view, that's just how superpowers act. While I'd prefer that this country, or future superpowers, act in more enlightened ways, I know that's not reality. Pretty much any country that was in America's position of total dominance would begin to ruthlessly pursue it's agenda around the world.

But that doesn't mean I'm blind to what the US does. Just because others have and would do it, doesn't make the bad things they do right. And very few Americans are even aware of the bad things. Some are aware and, like you, don't really think it's such a big deal (or that's the impression I got when we last talked international affairs). But many aren't even aware of it...and they should be. So it's good that some people actually raise this issue. She's not harming anyone, she's not vandalizing the school or flag, she's not doing *anything* malicious. She's simply giving her opinion.



> To refuse to fly it based on faulty, negative, emotional logic is absurd


First of all, her logic is hardly faulty. Second of all, if "emotional" is a problem, your whole viewpoint has to be tossed out, since it's clearly emotional...your anger at her is leading you to throw insults at her and even led you to post it here with an an "arghhh." So, let's not demonize emotion. "Negative," sure...but that's what protest is.

Second of all, she's not "refusing" to fly it. It's not her decision. She's calling on the people who *do* make the decision not to fly it. The reason I'm even making the distinction is that she's using the proper channels...she's not making some unilateral decision...she's giving her opinion and if enough people agree with her and that influences the decision-maker and the rules-makers, change will happen. That's how you're supposed to do things in a Democratic republic.



> but what irks me the most about that womans attitude is that she is so negative towards this collection of people that is the US but has no problem taking the peoples money to help educate her child. Talk about hypocritical.


You'll have to give me the quote where she was negative towards the people of America. There's a key difference between the acts of the US government, abroad, and the people of the country. Most of the people in this country aren't even aware, as I said, of most of the things we do abroad.

And it's hardly hypocritical, even if she detested the people of the country. She pays taxes, too, I assume. Many people in this country would be perfectly happy to not pay any taxes and deal with paying for schooling themselves. Isn't the school part-private? That would suggest she pays something...and yet she pays a full fare of taxes...private school parents don't get a "schooling" break on taxes that I know of. So, it's not like she's getting more from this society than she's paying in. As long as she paxes her taxes, she has a right to every free service by the state, whether she loves or hates the people.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

In any case, Tommyboy, we can agree to disagree, as I don't really have the energy to have long debates on forums anymore.

I don't agree with our dear lady from Ashland, as I think the flag is a pretty mixed bag in terms of what it represents, but it is the symbol of the country and worth flying over public-owned buildings.

I simply would refrain from calling someone who peacefully and respectfully (she didn't levy insults against those who put the flag up) gives her opinion, with no malicious actions, a kook or a jerk or a crazy.

Please feel free to post a response, I'm not trying to cut you off. I'm simply unlikely to continue it myself. This post pretty much sums up my position.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

Yes, most black people do have it better here than in Africa. 

I wouldnt say they are lucky, i would say they earned their luck through years of horrible slavery. I am glad my ancestors lived in Ireland and came to the North as immigrants during the Civil War(and fought for the north). If i was a desendent of a slave owner or even a southerner i would feel sad and ashamed of my ancestors.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!





> It sure does. Blacks in America have a higher standard of living than blacks in any other country in the world. In fact, there are African nations where blacks are STILL being enslaved by their fellow blacks. And if they're not being enslaved, they're being wiped out by AIDS, or Ebola, or starvation. If you're black, and you live in America, you should thank your lucky stars.


You totally misinterpreted what I was saying and missed the point of my post. First of all, I already said America was the best country on earth, in my opinion. But to say that it is the best country for blacks isn't necessarily true. There are many tribes in Africa that exist that treat the members with an equal level of respect, something America has yet to achieve in regards to its minority citizens. And the point is not that America isn't a good place to live. The point is that there are still problems within it and it's ok to criticize those faults. Just because someone doesn't like someting that goes on in America doesn't mean they don't have the right to live here. Following your logic, someone who disagrees with paying taxes should go live somewhere else. If they don't like it, get out, right? Poor logic. 



> A lot of immigrants come here because the "crap jobs" are better than any job they can find in their own country--if they can even find one. Most of them are grateful to live in a land where they can start at the bottom and work their way up. And many do. It's called the American success story.


No, many do not. There are sucesses and I'm sure immigrants are thankful for the opportunities and standard of living they are afforded here. But the vast majority of immigrants do live at a standard below most natural citizens, and that's the issue. Yes, some of that blame falls on them, but some of it falls on the government and those who are more fortunate. Again, the point is not that America isn't a good place to live, it's that there are PROBLEMS that need to be dealt with. 



> You want to see women get disrespected? Go to Iraq, or Iran, or Kuwait, or any Middle Eastern country. Women in the U.S. get a great deal of respect. They have more choices, more freedoms, and a higher standard of living than women in almost any other country. We've practically made a religion out of giving women respect.


Yes, women do receive a great deal more of respect in the U.S. than some other countries but it's not where it should be. They are still looked down upon in this society and degraded: Playboy, hustler, sexual assault (mainly women are the victims), and a general feeling of machoism. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those radical, "Let the woman play in the NBA...etc...", people. For whatever reason, God blessed women with the duty of childbirth. I feel that is definitely a duty a woman should take on and take seriously. But I also believe women are looked at in a poor manner in this country. Words like *****, hoe, slut, skank, (although they all probably got censored) are prevalent throughout the society. But how many words like those exist for men? Just an example...



Once again, this is a great country but that doesn't mean it is without faults; serious faults. Just because a person is not willing to turn his or her head from the problems in this society and the injustices of the past does not mean he or she is ungrateful for being here, or should go somewhere else. Like I said before, it's easy for those who dominate the society to either be blind to or shrug off the problems here. It's not so easy for those who live through them, despite the many blessings in this country. Try seeing things from another perspective, not just your own. 

And just to let you know, as it seemed you and a few others were implying in your posts, I'm not in the "victim mentality" and neither is Minstrel. I just want a country where everyone's viewpoint is genuinely looked at and considered and everyone's goal is to have a truly equal country. Some of my beliefs are misconstrued too. I have no doubt. But instead of being totally set in our ideals and seeing things from only our eyes, we all should try to step out of our comfort zones and try to understand perspectives from all walks of live. That's all I'm saying.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tommyboy</b>!
> southern oregon radical libs hate US flag


So we've got a 13 year old superpatriot going up against the "radical libs" over flying a flag at a building that supports home-schooling. 

My solution to this intensely important issue would be to turn the building into a real public school and force both sets of kids to go. Maybe that way they, and their parents, would get socialized and cease to be the fringe right-and-left-wing nutballs they are today.

barfo


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

How exactly is she a radical and a left wing nutball? I don't get it.


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## Goldmember (May 24, 2003)

Wow, some people just have to have something to b***h about. Who gives a rip? It's a piece of fabric. It has no real consequence on anything. If you don't like it, don't look at it. This lady is nuts. I used to live near Ashland and it's full of whacked-out hippies like that.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> How exactly is she a radical and a left wing nutball? I don't get it.


Radical was Tommyboy's phrase, you'd have to ask him about that one. Left wing - it would appear that she's on the left side of the political spectrum, unless I've badly misread the article. And nutball - well, anybody who gives a damn whether the flag is flown over some school support building is a nutball in my book. 

barfo


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## blazerfan4life (Dec 31, 2002)

I have 3 words for you all.......................


GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!


THERE oh thats 4 words..oooppss wait thats more words:| :laugh:


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

*ThatBlazerGuy* said this about black people in America:



> "I wouldn't say they are lucky, I would say they earned their luck through years of horrible slavery."


This is specious reasoning. No black American living today earned anything from years of horrible slavery. They were never slaves themselves, so how could they? You can't earn something based on what your ancestors went through 150 years ago. If that were the case, every Irish-American living today earned his or her status in the U.S. based on the rampant anti-Irish sentiment in this country years ago. And every Catholic American today earned his or her status based on anti-Catholicism. Etc. 

ALL of us who were born in this country are "lucky" only in the sense that our ancestors came here, and thus enabled us to be born U.S. citizens. And it's not just U.S. blacks who have a high standard of living. It's Jews and Muslims and Hispanics and Chinese and Japanese and Koreans. We're all "living well" because we're blessed to be living in the greatest country in the world.


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> How exactly is she a radical and a left wing nutball? I don't get it.


when a person takes a political stand that is at the far end of political thought they then qualify for radical label as such:

argument a) the American flag stands for evil, imperialism, corruptness, oppression and should not be honored or shown in front of public buildings (radical left)

argument b) the American flag stands for many things both good and bad and is merely a symbol that represents the nation and its people and should be honored or shown in front of public buildings (centrist)

argument c) the American flag stand for peace, love, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, justice and should be honored or shown in front of every building every day, public and private (radical right)


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

it always strikes me as odd that Americans espousing the wonders of their country compare it to Iraq, Syria, Botswana or North Korea, but never seem to mention Denmark, Japan or Germany. this is a trait i find to be pretty unique to Americans.

if you talk to a Brit (such as my wife's family) about their country, they always seem much more interested in comparing it to France and the US than they do Liberia. 

if you have a great basketball team, you usually compare it to other great teams. why would we bother saying year after year that our Blazers sure are a lot better than those Clippers.

i'm not picking anyone out. it's just something i've often wondered about. if our country is so outstanding, it seems a little beneath us to pick the straw man countries to compare ourselves to.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

Are you kiddiing? I don't mind comparing the U.S. to any country. We're far better than France, Germany, or Japan put together. Maybe we compare our country to places like Iraq, Iran, or North Korea because they are so diametrically opposite us. Or maybe it's because so many people from third-world countries are always trying to come here--rather than say, Japan.

The Brits compare themselves to the French because they are "neighbors," they have a long intertwined history, and they basically hate each other. Denmark is one of the more liberal countries in Western Europe, so I guess it stands as a kind of model for a certain type of government and approach to life. But it would be silly for the U.S. to compare itself to Denmark. That would be like an elephant comparing itself to an ant. What's the point?


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

how many of those countries have you personally visited, TalkHard, and I don't mean for a week while sight-seeing? have you lived in any of them? 

i'm not meaning to pick on you, but I've often found that those who are most confident that ours is the best country in the world also happen to be the ones who have seen the fewest others.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> Or maybe it's because so many people from third-world countries are always trying to come here--rather than say, Japan.


actually, the United Kingdom has received (relative to their nation's population) a much, much larger share of refugees from Bosnia than we did, and that's really the norm as opposed to the exception. France is in the same situation with African refugees. 

[rant]having personal, first-hand experience with our own immigration "service", i think our commitment to being a "melting pot" is not all it's hyped to be. i have never encountered a more backwards, incompetent, unpleasant organization in my life (except for one time on a 25 hour bus ride in central Mexico. *grimace*) [/rant]


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> "how many of those countries have you personally visited, TalkHard, and I don't mean for a week while sight-seeing? have you lived in any of them?
> 
> i'm not meaning to pick on you, but I've often found that those who are most confident that ours is the best country in the world also happen to be the ones who have seen the fewest others."


I've found just the opposite, Wanker. Most Americans who visit other countries come back with an even greater appreciation of our own.

In my case, I've been to over 70 countries, at last count. I've travelled extensively in Europe, Scandinavia, South America, the Orient, and the South Pacific. I was in the Soviet Union before it fell, and I was in Beijing only days before the Tianamen Square massacre. I spent 3 years seeing the world, from the North Cape of Norway, to the tip of Tierra del Fuego, to a 1000 miles up the Amazon River. Believe me, there is no country like the U.S.A. Not even close. Most of the world wants what we have, and they envy our freedom and prosperity. Some of them are even willing to die trying to get here.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> "argument c) the American flag stand for peace, love, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, justice and should be honored or shown in front of every building every day, public and private (radical right)"


I liked your examples, Tommyboy, and I realize you're trying to represent opposite ends of the spectrum, but I think you're pushing it a little with your last example. No conservative that I know thinks the flag should be flown in front of "every" building, public and private. Even hardcore conservatives believe in individual rights, and would respect the right of someone not to fly the flag from their front porch if they chose not to.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> But it would be silly for the U.S. to compare itself to Denmark. That would be like an elephant comparing itself to an ant. What's the point?


So it's ok to compare youself to Liberia, but not Denmark? 

Actually, Denmark is an excellent country for the US to compare itself to, precisely because of it's extremely different style of governemt. They send a much smaller % of their population to prison, have universal health care, public transportation is outstanding, and their cities are generally much cleaner and less crime-infesteed than American cities. (Hmm, better stop now or somebody will say "then why don't you live there?") Of course, their drug problems rival our own and half their income goes to taxes. It's an interesting comparison, really.


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!
> 
> 
> So it's ok to compare youself to Liberia, but not Denmark?
> ...



you left out the part about their economy has no growth potential. All of those Scandanavian socialist countries suffer from being tapped out economically. 

it is hard to compare the US with any other country really because there are no other superpowers currently. That is a role that is unique at this time to us. I would probably choose Canada as the closest, based on their geographical size, their natural resource base (plentiful), their gov't system (somewhat similar) and their people (very similar). The difference would be they aren't a world power and spend miniscule amounts on their defense, knowing they have big brother USA as a protector, and in general their gov't leans much further left on the whole then ours does. If I had to choose a place to move to I'd move to Calgary, AB.

the idea that a person is really unhappy being a US citizen just sparks the counter-idea that if its so bad maybe they should check out _________________ (insert crappy country here).
I think most Americans are pretty happy and proud of being American. I feel pretty fortunate I was born in Oregon instead of Somalia.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

well, "tapped out economically" is a pretty debatable statement. i don't really know if they have any economic growth potential left--nobody really does. a new economic force could spring up at any time (a la the internet) that they could exploit.

i met up with a good friend of mine from Copenhagen a few years ago. he was gleefully riding the dotcom bubble to a $100,000 salary at the age of 26, like so many in the silicon valley. then he lost his job when the bubble burst, like so many others. 

he sure can play a mean game of badminton, though. you've never seen a 6-8 man in shorts and white tube socks look so terrifying with a shuttlecock.


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tommyboy</b>!
> that's pretty racist. why don't you call him cracker as well, maybe honky or ******...


Why exactly would I do that?

That would be a direct insult to roughly 50% of my genetic makeup.

--------------

_Do a little research on the significance of "counting/ thanking ones lucky stars" in relation to slavery, then maybe you will understand why (not what was actually said, but...) the use of *those particular words* in the context of what was being said, ruffled my feathers._


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ThatBlazerGuy</b>!
> LOL
> 
> The reason Ed O. alwasy wins in verbal fights is he is alwasy on the Blazer boards while other people generally are busy doing other things


No, its probably because he has a point.

And he believes in what he is saying.

Thats probably why.

Stuart


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> Wow, some people just have to have something to b***h about. Who gives a rip? It's a piece of fabric. It has no real consequence on anything.


Then why not fly a confererate flag then?

Its only fabric right?

People have the right to complain. Whether some agree with it or not. As mentioned before, that is our right. Its not like she's climbing the pole and lighting it on fire. 

I don't agree with her, but hey, this is the United States. 

Stuart


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i don't care if someone ruffled your feathers or not, where is the justification for slamming someone as though they are a slave master? Thats just inappropriate. You could have responded in a very forceful way without the racist tone.

also I think you'd be better off dealing with what people actually write/say instead of * (not what was actually said, but...)*


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>s a b a s 11</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



people have a right to complain, yes. People do not have a right to prohibit state laws from being followed because of their ideology. The Willow Wind's director and a fair number of the parents from Willow Wind willfully ignored a state law regarding the flag, and if given a choice would CONTINUE to ignore that law because of their political ideology, thereby denying other people at that school that don't share their ideology their freedom of expression. 

so basically freedom of expression is only ok if you share their political ideology, if not screw you. I see how it works, thanks!


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

I would just like to mention that I am anti-death penalty and pro-choice. I kill animals for meat, yet loathe picking up the dead birds my cat drags in. 

I realize that this has little to do with racism, flag waving or the gross domestic product of Denmark, but I figured I might get just a few personal contradictions out in the open since we're all talking about free speech anyway. they've been bugging me lately.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

Props Wanker...

At least you realize that you have contradictions going... 

A lot of people don't put much thought into whether or not they live their life the way they believe. I still haven't quite figured everything out for myself either, you get lots of time though...

And for the record this was not meant to imply anything about anyone posting in this thread. Not sure if I need to say that, but it couldn't hurt.

Cheers


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tommyboy</b>!
> i don't care if someone ruffled your feathers or not, where is the justification for slamming someone as though they are a slave master? Thats just inappropriate. You could have responded in a very forceful way without the racist tone.
> 
> also I think you'd be better off dealing with what people actually write/say instead of * (not what was actually said, but...)*


_I really don’t know why I am responding to you (?) but hey, I felt the itch._

You obviously are completely oblivious to just why (the following):



> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> It sure does. Blacks in America have a higher standard of living than blacks in any other country in the world. In fact, there are African nations where blacks are STILL being enslaved by their fellow blacks. And if they're not being enslaved, they're being wiped out by AIDS, or Ebola, or starvation. If you're black, and you live in America, you should *thank your lucky stars.*


...would be found offensive by someone like myself.

What I did is not what you claim it to be… 

What I did was extract what I found to be a heavy racial/ stereotypical undertone to a particular paragraph and accentuate it in an attempt to draw attention to it.

_I apologize if I went above your head on that one._

-----------------

In terms of your not caring, I too could care less as to whether my writing aesthetic suits your liking. My purpose in life truly and honestly does not involve pleasing Tommyboy.



Sincerely yours

*The Enigma *


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> "I would just like to mention that I am anti-death penalty and pro-choice."


So you despise the idea of putting to death a hardened serial killer, but you don't mind killing an innocent child? Is that what you meant by contradictions?


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## Goldmember (May 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>s a b a s 11</b>!
> 
> 
> Then why not fly a confererate flag then?
> ...


That's right. It's a meaningless piece of fabric, and if some ******* wants to stick one in his front yard I could care less, as long as he isn't hurting anyone. 

To quote George Carlin: symbols are for the symbol minded.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> "What I did was extract what I found to be a heavy racial/ stereotypical undertone to a particular paragraph and accentuate it in an attempt to draw attention to it.
> 
> I apologize if I went above your head on that one."


You went over my head, too. I wrote the darn thing, and I have no idea why you think it's racist. I also have no idea why what I said would offend "someone like you." Are you black? Is that the point? Why not say so? And please explain to all of us why using the expression "thank your lucky stars" is racist.


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you did exactly what I claimed you did, you just admitted it. You read someones words, filtered it and came to the conclusion YOU ASSUMED was racial stereotyping "undertone"

when I read his paragraph, all of it is true except the ONE PART that is an opinion which was the "thank the lucky stars" part.

Can you offer any factual refutation of any of the claims he made? Can you refute any of the following:



Blacks in America have a higher standard of living than blacks in any other country in the world
there are African nations where blacks are STILL being enslaved by their fellow blacks
they're being wiped out by AIDS, or Ebola, or starvation

You have yet to make any rebuttal based on facts, other than to slander him with a racist response based on your own anger and your own conclusions/assumptions of what you assumed he was implying.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> "To quote George Carlin: symbols are for the symbol minded."


If George Carlin actually said that, he's an idiot. Symbols are an indespensible part of human life. The words that you are reading right now are nothing but symbols. Money is a symbol. A road map is full of symbols. So is great literature. Any blueprint is a system of symbols. The red cross is a symbol of humanitarian assistance recognized around the world. The Statue of Liberty is an incredibly important symbol. And so on.

The American flag is hardly just a piece of cloth. It represents something very important to all Americans, and to people of every color around the world. Millions of soldiers fought and died for that flag at places like Normandy and the Battle of the Bulge. That flag was planted at Iwo Jima, on the moon, and even in the rubble of the World Trade Center. The Chinese students who were massacred in Tianamen Square were inspired by the American flag and what it represents. So were dozens of other freedom fighters around the world. To pretend that there is no deeper meaning or emotional significance attached to the American flag is just a sign of ignorance.


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## Goldmember (May 24, 2003)

I have to disagree. It is simply a piece of fabric with few designs. It has no real bearing on anything. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. To get so emotional over a symbol is silly IMO. And yes, George did say that.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> 
> The American flag is hardly just a piece of cloth. It represents something very important to all Americans


It may represent all those things to you, but not to all Americans. I'm an American, and it doesn't represent much of anything to me. Not that I have no respect for the long list of things you think it represents, I just don't see the connection between those things and the flag myself. So I disagree with your use of the word 'all' as quoted above.

barfo


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> I have to disagree. It is simply a piece of fabric with few designs. It has no real bearing on anything. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. To get so emotional over a symbol is silly IMO. And yes, George did say that.




give me all your money then. Its just a symbol.


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## Goldmember (May 24, 2003)

Weak comparison. Money actually has a function. The american flag isn't going to put food on your table.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Why are you hating on Enigma? As soon as I read that post, I understand exactly the point he was trying to make. You said, "Any black person living in America should count his lucky stars." WHAT?! How the heck do you know what it's like being black and living in America. Is it better than a lot of countries in a health wise and freedom wise aspect? Sure. But socially, there are countries out there that more openly accept black people, let alone minorities in general. What you said was offensive, acting like instead of complaining about the problems we face in America we should just grin and bear and get on with it. It seemed to me that Enigma was just making the point that things aren't necessarily equal and you shouldn't talk from such a condescending viewpoint, that's all.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

"Scandanavian socialist countries" 

what exactly is a socialist country, if I may ask?


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> Weak comparison. Money actually has a function. The american flag isn't going to put food on your table.



actually I wasnt being serious, shoulda put a smiley in


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## Anima (Jun 3, 2003)

> what exactly is a socialist country, if I may ask?


Socialism in a nutshell


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> What you said was offensive, acting like instead of complaining about the problems we face in America we should just grin and bear and get on with it.


what he specifically said was:

1) Blacks in America have a higher standard of living than blacks in any other country in the world

2) there are African nations where blacks are STILL being enslaved by their fellow blacks

3) they're (blacks) being wiped out by AIDS, or Ebola, or starvation (in Africa)

4) blacks in America should thank their lucky stars to be born here. (paraphrase)

---------------------------------

no where in there does he say you should stop complaining
and just grin and bear it, those are your assumptions. I took his statement of "thank their lucky stars" to mean that blacks in America COMPARED to blacks in AFRICA (not blacks in Canada or Europe) are much better off. His statement was in regards to blacks in Africa. 




> It seemed to me that Enigma was just making the point that things aren't necessarily equal and you shouldn't talk from such a condescending viewpoint, that's all.


what "things" aren't "necessarily equal"? That is kind of vague. What do you mean specifically? 

On the comparisons he made, based on all available hard evidence it is true that blacks in America are much better off than blacks in Africa. The lucky part I didn't take as offensive because if I think about me being born here in the US vs me being born in say Russia, I feel lucky to be born here. I don't think he meant to imply that black people owe white people gratitude for being brought over as slaves and they should feel lucky about that, if thats what you thought all I can say is I certainly didn't read into it that way based on what he wrote.

I am still curious as to what he wrote that was a) factually wrong and b) condescending. If I wrote a message like Enigma did that addressed him as a slave would you consider that condescending and racist? Why is it ok then for Enigma to address another poster as a slave master?


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>el_Diablo</b>!
> "Scandanavian socialist countries"
> 
> what exactly is a socialist country, if I may ask?


http://william-king.www.drexel.edu/top/pol/FAQ/soc.html



socialist can imply many things. Many people consider countries with large gov'ts that own natural resources, have high tax rates and spend large amounts on social programs like health care, education, infrastructure for the good of the people as "socialist". Canada would be an example in that regard.

socialism and communism are often compared and confused with each other but are a little different


here is a good summary of socialism vs communism


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tommyboy</b>!
> 
> 
> what he specifically said was:
> ...


Let's get a few things out of the way. America isn't necessarily a better place to live than Africa. There are values in life other than health, wealth, belongings...of course America is much less of a health risk than Africa. Yes, there are African tribes that enslave each other. But you can't say Africa, in it's totality, is a worse place to live for blacks than America. In some places in Africa, and other countries in the world, that's simply not true. Again, your viewpoint of America is different than mine and a lot of other minorities. You can't just see things from your view. Would I rather live here than anywhere else? Yeah, probably. It's a great country. But there are problems here I do not care for that need to be addressed. Saying that blacks here should "thank their lucky stars" (in lieu of conditions here compared to conditions elsewhere) is offensive. I mean, why did that even come up? It shouldn't have. America being a safer and healthier and generally more pleasant place to live has NOTHING to do with prejudice, racism, etc...Just because someone brings up a point of prejudice or a complaint against the flag, or government doesn't give someone the right to say, "well, you could be living in Africa with AIDS." That's the equilavent of saying, walk it off. In saying that, he totally disregarded the fact that his view and the view of black people in America are TOTALLY different. He doesn't have to live with some of the crap black people do. I'm sure a lot of black people are very thankful to live here. I'm sure some aren't. But don't tell someone to thank their lucky stars because they could be suffering somewhere else instead of complaining about America. It doesn't work that way.

When I said things weren't necessarily equal, I was talking about society generally when it comes to that of a black person, and minorities in general. We aren't treated equally in this society. I didn't take his comment as saying we should be glad we got taken over here as slaves, not at all. So in summary...

1) His facts on Africa being worse than here aren't totally true and his view of this society is misconstrued

2) What was condescending is saying that we should thanks our lucky stars instead of complaining about problems here in America. It's condescedning because the America he says and the America we see are two different views. Maybe he's just ignorant. Either way, it came across as arrogant. As for the way Enigma said it, it shouldn't have been offensive but maybe he should've given more explanation as to why he acted like that. As far as someone acting like a slave master, it would depend on the circumstance. In this circumstance, there was nothing Enigma did that was wrong, except maybe not explain himself initially. There was nothing wrong with the original act.


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

Although I am white I clearly can see RodneythaRippa's point.



> Originally posted by <b>Tommyboy</b>!
> 
> 1) Blacks in America have a higher standard of living than blacks in any other country in the world


That is certainly true. However they still have not reached equal conditions with their fellow white countrymen. The net wealth (=everything you own - debts) of a black household is ten times smaller than that of white household. (Source : Dalton Conley, professor of sociology at the University of NY)



> 2) there are African nations where blacks are STILL being enslaved by their fellow blacks


35% of the carceral population is black while the black community represents 10% of the whole nation. Currently, there are more black men in prison (791 600) than in college (603 032) and the black carceral population has been multiplied by 5 for the last 20 years. (Source: UNESCO)



> 3) they're (blacks) being wiped out by AIDS, or Ebola, or starvation (in Africa)


In some big inner cities vastly populated by black people, the infantile death rate is greater than in most parts of Sub Saharian Africa.



> 4) blacks in America should thank their lucky stars to be born here. (paraphrase)


I find this very disrespectful. If anybody, blacks should thank historical figures such as Marcus Garvey, WEB Du Bois or Martin Luther King for leading the way in their emancipation. The latter is not achivieved by magic or via a "lucky star", it is obtained through permanent struggle.

The point of this post is not to state America is a bad place to live for blacks (or other people for that matter), because it isn't. However the situation is not as clear-cut as some would like to think. And I must admit that the "US is the best country ever period" argument was getting on my nerves. :|


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

ok Tommyboy, I was afraid that socialism = communism in your book.

"socialism and communism are often compared and confused with each other but are a little different"

but I still wouldn't say scandinavian countries don't differ much from the former soviet union.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

White, european...
Read the whole thread because i thought i would get some more info about americans and the way they pervieve their government and national simbols.

I must cofess i was pretty shocked to read that some posters considerer their country's FLAG a PIECE OF FABRIC.
How can this be (i thought to myself)? I know America is still a young country, and it's a cultural melting pot since almost day one, but i was really, really surprised, for i always thought that american people were much more patriotic and conservative than that.

Don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but just two thoughts:

- Do you consider the image of Jesus Christ in churches a piece of clay (or whatever)?

- Do you know the words of your national anthem?


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> I have to disagree. It is simply a piece of fabric with few designs. It has no real bearing on anything. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. To get so emotional over a symbol is silly IMO. And yes, George did say that.


what if they flew the nazi flag instead of the american flag? would it still be just a piece of fabric? just wonderin'...


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> I must cofess i was pretty shocked to read that some posters considerer their country's FLAG a PIECE OF FABRIC.
> How can this be (i thought to myself)? I know America is still a young country, and it's a cultural melting pot since almost day one, but i was really, really surprised, for i always thought that american people were much more patriotic and conservative than that.


It's a big country, lots of different opinions...



> Don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but just two thoughts:
> 
> - Do you consider the image of Jesus Christ in churches a piece of clay (or whatever)?
> 
> - Do you know the words of your national anthem?


Yes [edit: the first verse anyway... see Ed's later post], and yes. On the latter, I feel about the anthem the same way I feel about the flag - it's just a song (and a pretty awful one at that). I'd really prefer not to have to hear it prior to Blazer games. There is so much really great music in the world - maybe it's time to change the anthem? 

Yeah, I know, if I don't wanna hear it I should just move to Iraq...

barfo


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

symbols, like language, are a two way street. 

a stop sign only means "stop" because your environment has created this association in you. you project this meaning onto the symbol. the symbol supplies color and form, but it is you who decides what that color and form means. 

same goes for a cross and "salvation" and a flag and "patriotism." 

when someone say "a flag is a symbol of freedom to all Americans", they are mistaken. it's presumptuous to assume that 270 million people all project the same meaning onto a symbol the exact same way. 

personally, I ascribe some sense of patriotism and freedom to the symbol of the flag, but I think people get a little silly about it. 

a much stronger symbol to me of freedom is the outline of the state of Idaho. I associate it with independence, vast open mountain ranges, and liberating isolation. (i don't doubt, though, that many would just think of potatoes.)

a much stronger symbol of patriotism for me is the cemetery in northern France where thousands of American soldiers are buried. it is a direct symbol of the price that others have paid so that i can live comfortably. 

a flag and a cross are both indirect symbols, and therefore i project less meaning onto them. in an alternate reality, the American flag could've been designed to look like a swastika and it'd represent the same thing. 

the grave of a dead man, regardless of how the tombstone is dressed up, is a much more serious business.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> - Do you know the words of your national anthem?


No question. I think all Americans know all four verses. (Sarcasm.)

Here's the fourth verse, for you Americans at home, to try out. It's interesting to sing it to oneself... the familiar tune and the unfamiliar words:

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner forever shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Ed O.


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well I guess we just saw his post differently, because I took a very narrow and literal view of what he wrote while you and others maybe saw much wider implications. I see where you are coming from in that context, I just didn't read his paragraph that way.

for what its worth, I actually feel very lucky to be born American even with all of our problems and warts and all. But then, I served 6 years in the military to defend the right of all of us to come onto this message board and voice any opinion they want.
I guess I'm a little biased.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

Just a piece of fabric in Iraq


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

Just a piece of fabric in Iraq








[/IMG]


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> Just a piece of fabric in Iraq


Cute kid. Still be cute if she was holding some other object, tho.

barfo


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> I'm an American, and [the flag] doesn't represent much of anything to me.


Then you're not much of an American, are you?


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
> Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
> ...


I can see why they leave this one out... a little preachy for our supposedly secular nation and for my blood as well.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that you guys all rock. The fact that we can all come on here, with widely differing political views and discuss some pretty sensitive subjects such as these civilly on a sports forum is really something special. It's the reason that I keep reading and posting to this board and have followed many of you around for the last four years to four different locations...

Sure we can get at each other's throats at times, but we always cool off and live to chat another day. Hope I'm not lightening the mood too much.

If anyone cares about my humble opinions, here they are...

As to the racism issue, I can see why Enigma is upset about TalkHard's post, and I can also see why a lot of people would read it as nothing offensive at all, which I am sure was the way that TalkHard meant it. 

I think as a board we're pretty sensitive to other's feelings on issues like race, but we could always be a little more careful. I also think that it is important that we give each other the benefit of the doubt. If someone says something that you find offensive, try and call them on it and ask for clarification before saying something that someone else might view as offensive... often easier said than done, but that's just my two cents.

As far as the flag goes, I find the idea of viewing the flag as nothing more than a piece of fabric pretty foreign. But if that's truly how some of you feel about it, at least realize that this is definitely a minority viewpoint. It is a powerful symbol across the world, for some it means freedom, for others oppression... 

You certainly have the right to your opinion, but realize that if you tell a US Veteran that the flag is "just a piece of fabric" that it will not be well received.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

you suck, Blazer Ringbearer.

















just kidding. too much sentimentality gets a little overwhelming for my fragile, paternalist ego. if we don't nip this in the bud, i'm going to break down and cry and tell you all about how I like that you never laughed at me, even though I was a cronic bedwetter until the age of 14 and.....uh......

*ahem*

you suck, Blazer Ringbearer.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

Wanker, 

Your mother smells of elderberries!


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> Then you're not much of an American, are you?


Gee, Talkhard, I dunno. Is reverence for the flag your sole criterion for being an American? If so, then I guess I'm not much of an American. 

What if I loved the flag but didn't pay my taxes? How much of an American would I be then?

What if I loved the flag but was a serial killer?

What if I loved the (American) flag but was was a Pakistani (born in Pakistan, living in Pakistan, Pakistan citizen, etc)? Would I be an American?

barfo


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> That's right. It's a meaningless piece of fabric, and if some ******* wants to stick one in his front yard I could care less, as long as he isn't hurting anyone.
> 
> To quote George Carlin: symbols are for the symbol minded.


Well it may be meaningless to you but to the ******* and others, they could mean something entirely different. Is a flag with a swastika ok? Where does one draw the line? What does George Carlin think about that?

Stuart


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

come on barfo, we all know your a commie pinko.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tommyboy</b>!
> come on barfo, we all know your a commie pinko.


Actually I just pretend to be because the supermodels are attracted to pinkos... It's all about the hotties.

barfo


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tommyboy</b>!
> people have a right to complain, yes. People do not have a right to prohibit state laws from being followed because of their ideology. The Willow Wind's director and a fair number of the parents from Willow Wind willfully ignored a state law regarding the flag, and if given a choice would CONTINUE to ignore that law because of their political ideology, thereby denying other people at that school that don't share their ideology their freedom of expression.
> 
> so basically freedom of expression is only ok if you share their political ideology, if not screw you. I see how it works, thanks!


I never agreed with her bucking a set law, my argument is with those that do not wany her EXPRESSING her ideas. She breaks the law, thats pretty black and white, but the tenet of my argument is that she has the right to raise her voice no matter how many people in here prefer her to shut up.

Stuart


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

Man, I gotta try that... I haven't dated a supermodel in WEEKS!


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> I have to disagree. It is simply a piece of fabric with few designs. It has no real bearing on anything. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. To get so emotional over a symbol is silly IMO. And yes, George did say that.


Are you familiar with the words "*******" and "******" and their origins?

They are words that were not originally consider slurs or derogatory terms, but over time these terms became associated with a certain definition.

"******" is no longer a bundle of sticks as meant by the creator.

Flags are the same thing, they are associated with certain idealogies and definitions. I don't get worked up by flags whatsoever, then again, I have no direct reason to.

BUt I will tell you what, I am certainly not going to say to a USA patriot that fouhgt in a war that the American flag is just a piece of fabric. Nor would I tell an black person not to get so worked up over the confererate flag.

STuart


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

Just a piece of fabric in Iraq


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

Sorry, guys. I keep trying to paste a picture but I'm having no luck.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> BUt I will tell you what, I am certainly not going to say to a USA patriot that fouhgt in a war that the American flag is just a piece of fabric. Nor would I tell an black person not to get so worked up over the confererate flag.


Excellent point! If symbols and flags mean nothing, then blacks shouldn't get upset about the Confederate flag flying over the state capitol in South Carolina. And jews shouldn't get upset when they see a swaztika. And the "n" word shouldn't matter to anyone, since it's just a meaningless symbol.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> 
> Then you're not much of an American, are you?


Hey, woah there. If you don't like your fellow Americans, you can just move to I-raq, buddy.

Move to Iraq and see peasants ripping down statues of their leader and you'll gain a newfound appreciation for the patriotism of Americans like barfo.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> What if I loved the flag but didn't pay my taxes? How much of an American would I be then? What if I loved the flag but was a serial killer? What if I loved the (American) flag but was was a Pakistani (born in Pakistan, living in Pakistan, Pakistan citizen, etc)? Would I be an American?


Yadda yadda yadda. 

You can dance around the issue all you want, but it doesn't change one simple fact: Anybody who loves this country, believes in what it stands for, and wants to see it continue and flourish, has a certain amount of affection for the flag.

If you feel nothing positive for the flag, if it's just a piece of fabric that has no meaning, no relevance, and no value to you, fine. You're free to feel any way you want to. But I'm also free to call a spade a spade. And you are not a real "American," in the true sense of the word. You just happen to live here.


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## Goldmember (May 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!Then you're not much of an American, are you?


Is that all it takes to be a good American? Worshipping the flag? 


"Good American." What is that really? Shouldn't someone strive to be a good person first? Wouldn't that make one a "good American." Contributing to society, giving to your community, following the laws, being kind to your fellow man, etc. Those ideals hold a little more value to me than worshipping a symbol.


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## Goldmember (May 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>s a b a s 11</b>!
> 
> 
> Well it may be meaningless to you but to the ******* and others, they could mean something entirely different. Is a flag with a swastika ok? Where does one draw the line?
> ...


If a person wanted to wave a flag with a swastika on it, that's their right. It's a free country. You don't draw the line on that because that would be unconstitutional.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>
> Hey, woah there. If you don't like your fellow Americans, you can just move to I-raq, buddy.
> 
> Move to Iraq and see peasants ripping down statues of their leader and you'll gain a newfound appreciation for the patriotism of Americans like barfo.


LMAO!

my nomination for best post on this thread (except, of course, for all of mine). 

can i do that?


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> You can dance around the issue all you want, but it doesn't change one simple fact: Anybody who loves this country, believes in what it stands for, and wants to see it continue and flourish, has a certain amount of affection for the flag.


A certain amount? Yeah. We just disagree wildly on what that amount is.



> If you feel nothing positive for the flag, if it's just a piece of fabric that has no meaning, no relevance, and no value to you, fine. You're free to feel any way you want to. But I'm also free to call a spade a spade.


A spade? I'll have you know I'm a pasty, wonder-bread white boy. 



> And you are not a real "American," in the true sense of the word. You just happen to live here.


Sez you, pal 

barfo


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!
> 
> LMAO!
> 
> ...


I appreciate your recommendation of my post for "Best Post In This Thread (Except, Of Course, For All Of Wanker's)." It's quite the honour.

Mine wasn't even better then that really bad one of yours...? You know, that one that you said, "Gosh, I'm embarrassed I even wrote this post, this is the lowest point of my life"? No, no, never mind...thanks.


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> 
> 
> If a person wanted to wave a flag with a swastika on it, that's their right. It's a free country. You don't draw the line on that because that would be unconstitutional.


Fair enough.

Tasteless, crass, and highly insensitive, but yes, banning a flag with a swastika would be unconstitutional, whatever fabric it is made of.

Stuart


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>starvydas</b>!
> Although I am white I clearly can see RodneythaRippa's point.
> 
> 
> ...


I really appreciate the fact that you're seeing things from a different viewpoint. Thanks for being more compassionate and indedently thinking than others. That's cool.


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>s a b a s 11</b>!
> 
> 
> I never agreed with her bucking a set law, my argument is with those that do not wany her EXPRESSING her ideas. She breaks the law, thats pretty black and white, but the tenet of my argument is that she has the right to raise her voice no matter how many people in here prefer her to shut up.
> ...



hey, I'm all for the freedom of expression. Just remember the freedom of expression doesn't protect that person from the freedom of expression another person has when they rip them a new one for being an idiot.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> hey, I'm all for the freedom of expression. Just remember the freedom of expression doesn't protect that person from the freedom of expression another person has when they rip them a new one for being an idiot.


Ha!! Exactly right.


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