# Paxson on Gasol in pre-game: "We need a guy to score like that."



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

This from the postgame:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=270123004



> Game notes
> Before the game, Bulls general manager John Paxson spoke to reporters about potential trades. Paxson didn't confirm or deny discussions with the Grizzlies involving a potential trade for forward Pau Gasol, but he did discuss what an asset Gasol would be to the Bulls without mentioning Gasol's name. "We need a guy to score like that. We need somebody with length that could score around the basket, take some pressure off of Ben (Wallace)," Paxson said.


Looks like it very well may be just a matter of time.

Off topic, can anyone give me an update on Duhon? Why did he sit out tonight? Was it injury or dog house relegation?


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## bullsger (Jan 14, 2003)

such sweet thunder said:


> This from the postgame:
> Looks like it very well may be just a matter of time.
> 
> Off topic, can anyone give me an update on Duhon? Why did he sit out tonight? Was it injury or dog house relegation?


Perhaps Duhon sit out because of a coming trade?


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

such sweet thunder said:


> This from the postgame:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It definitly seems like talks are becoming serious, and its just a matter of Paxson and West finding a mix to their satisfaction.

This is going to be an interesting next few weeks leading up to the trading deadline. I think Paxson has to be patient, the longer he waits, i think he can put the pressure on West into taking less. But West is no fool, so it would be heated negotiations at the moment. 

I honestly think that West will be adement that the deal invovle either Deng or Gordon.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

bullsger said:


> Perhaps Duhon sit out because of a coming trade?


That could be reason, or it could be that Skiles has just finally realized that Duhon has been on a slump that has lasted for the most part of the first half of the season and that sooner than later Thabo is going to have to recieve his mintues anyhow. So sooner rather than later..


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

kulaz3000 said:


> It definitly seems like talks are becoming serious, and its just a matter of Paxson and West finding a mix to their satisfaction.
> 
> This is going to be an interesting next few weeks leading up to the trading deadline. I think Paxson has to be patient, the longer he waits, i think he can put the pressure on West into taking less. But West is no fool, so it would be heated negotiations at the moment.
> 
> I honestly think that West will be adement that the deal invovle either Deng or Gordon.


I know I would.

I'll be sad to see either of them go, and while we 'need' Gordon more, Deng's my boo.

I'm allowed to cheer for a Gordon trade just out of personal preference, right?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Hopefully Deng & P.J. are the main pieces of this deal. We also need to find a way to add Chris Duhon. Don't get me wrong, I like him, but if you're not gonna play him, trade him. Plus, if you trade Deng, Chris going to another team with him (Deng) should make him a bit more comfortable.

Deng, Duhon, Brown + NY's pick for Gasol? I think that's a VERY fair deal. Expiring contracts, young players & picks. Isn't that a GM's dream in any trade when trading a franchise player?

G Hinrich / Barrett
G Gordon / Sefolosha
F Thomas / Nocioni / Khyrapa
F Gasol / Sweetney
C Wallace / Allen


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Hopefully Deng & P.J. are the main pieces of this deal. We also need to find a way to add Chris Duhon. Don't get me wrong, I like him, but if you're not gonna play him, trade him. Plus, if you trade Deng, Chris going to another team with him (Deng) should make him a bit more comfortable.
> 
> Deng, Duhon, Brown + NY's pick for Gasol? I think that's a VERY fair deal. Expiring contracts, young players & picks. Isn't that a GM's dream in any trade if the deal's not for a star?


Like I said in the other thread about Wallace's contract being reasonable -- big men are just paid more.

I would think that your trade proposal is fair, and I've seen something similar from Memphis posters, but I'm not sure I have any feel on Gasol's trade value. It could be much higher.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Hopefully we can keep Gordon and Deng out of the trade, and maybe ship Nocioni away with Duhon and Brown and the pick. If it comes down to Deng and Gordon, Deng has to go. Gordon is the better player just period. But we also have Viktar Krap, Tyrus, and Nocioni to fill in for Dung.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

kulaz3000 said:


> It definitly seems like talks are becoming serious, and its just a matter of Paxson and West finding a mix to their satisfaction.
> 
> This is going to be an interesting next few weeks leading up to the trading deadline. I think Paxson has to be patient, the longer he waits, i think he can put the pressure on West into taking less. But West is no fool, so it would be heated negotiations at the moment.
> 
> I honestly think that West will be adement that the deal invovle either Deng or Gordon.


I also see West not doing a deal with us or any team if he doesn't get what he wants, unless Ownership forces West to unload Gasol for anything that provides cap relief.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

such sweet thunder said:


> while we 'need' Gordon more, Deng's my boo.


I hope your a woman


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

The ROY said:


> Deng, Duhon, Brown + NY's pick for Gasol? I think that's a VERY fair deal. Expiring contracts, young players & picks. Isn't that a GM's dream in any trade when trading a franchise player?


I hope we can keep the pick by taking on a bad contract. We will be over the cap regardless, and JR claims he would pay the tax. It makes sense *basketball* wise (not fiancial maybe) to keep the pick. In a few years, Gasol will still be young, Wallace will be long gone, and we can have a rotation of Gasol/Tyrus/NYK pick. Who knows, we may get extremely lucky with the NYK pick. 

I would love for this trade to go down:

Deng, PJ, Sweets, Duhon (if West obliges, otherwise keep him on the bench) for Gasol, Cardinal (so we can keep the pick) and Warrick.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I hope your a woman


I'll admit it. I have a man-crush. As any self-respecting straight man can say about another straight man. There's no shame in my game.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

The ROY said:


> Hopefully Deng & P.J. are the main pieces of this deal. We also need to find a way to add Chris Duhon. Don't get me wrong, I like him, but if you're not gonna play him, trade him. Plus, if you trade Deng, Chris going to another team with him (Deng) should make him a bit more comfortable.
> 
> Deng, Duhon, Brown + NY's pick for Gasol? I think that's a VERY fair deal. Expiring contracts, young players & picks. Isn't that a GM's dream in any trade when trading a franchise player?


If we going to give all those players, PLUS the pick. I would atleast want of their young player also, Alexander Johnson or Hakim Warrick?

But id rather have Alexander, just to compensate for the NY pick, because his a wide big body with post moves and will stay in the paint.

Im not saying i like your trade proposal, because i still think thats a little too steep for Gasol, and we can be patient and wait for West to be desperate for a trade. But hyperthically if you were on the right track, and if i were Paxson, you would definitly have to steal one of their young studs in return.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Random thought, and don't blast me since I'm not a mod and don't know anything, but should we keep all Gasol stuff in one thread, so it is easier to follow?


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> Random thought, and don't blast me since I'm not a mod and don't know anything, but should we keep all Gasol stuff in one thread, so it is easier to follow?


Eventually. 

This is the first time Paxson has commented on Gasol though so I thought it was worthy of its own discussion. Given the recent trade rumors, you have to figure that Paxson knew how his statement would be interpreted. This all but confirms for me that talks are getting serious.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

theanimal23 said:


> I also see West not doing a deal with us or any team if he doesn't get what he wants, unless Ownership forces West to unload Gasol for anything that provides cap relief.


Well im hoping that Gasol throws and trantrum and forces a trade..


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

theanimal23 said:


> Random thought, and don't blast me since I'm not a mod and don't know anything, but should we keep all Gasol stuff in one thread, so it is easier to follow?


No, it gets too hard to follow when its all in one big thread, it turns me off, and I don't read it.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

such sweet thunder said:


> Eventually.
> 
> This is the first time Paxson has commented on Gasol though so I thought it was worthy of its own discussion. Given the recent trade rumors, you have to figure that Paxson knew how his statement would be interpreted. This all but confirms for me that talks are getting serious.


Yeah, the other threads are way too large, and to scrummage through all the posts are a little too much. Lets start fresh knowing that Paxson has pretty much admitted by not admitting that his in talks with West, and that something will gradually form from this..


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I agree SST. Negotiations are going on.

I like this trade that I 'proposed'. 

Deng, PJ, Sweets, and Duhon for PJ, Cardinal, and Warrick.

Getting Cardinal, hopefully allows us to keep the pick and hope to get very lucky.
I'd like to keep Duhon, not so he can start in front of Gordon or Thabo, but he isn't a bad player for his contract value and is a serviceable PG if an injury occurs. But, I would definitley throw him in on West's request. It won't stop me from getting Gasol.

I hope we have a choice of taking Cardinal or throwing in the pick. Basketball wise, you take Cardinal for the sake of the pick. Who knows, maybe that pick and Cardinal will be traded on Draft night or ends up being Oden/Durant.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> Hopefully we can keep Gordon and Deng out of the trade, and maybe ship Nocioni away with Duhon and Brown and the pick. If it comes down to Deng and Gordon, Deng has to go. Gordon is the better player just period. But we also have Viktar Krap, Tyrus, and Nocioni to fill in for Dung.


That's not gonna happen, Jerry West is damn near a genius. He won't just GIVE him away. You only make THAT kinda deal when you find out he's injured and may never play again LOL.

Love deng but I have NO problem moving him for Gasol.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

The ROY said:


> That's not gonna happen, Jerry West is damn near a genius. He won't just GIVE him away.


Geniuses don't have 10-32 teams. Period.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

The ROY said:


> That's not gonna happen, Jerry West is damn near a genius. He won't just GIVE him away. You only make THAT kinda deal when you find out he's injured and may never play again LOL.
> 
> Love deng but I have NO problem moving him for Gasol.


If Paxson is smart, whomever West is the most aggressive about wanting whether it be Gordon, Deng or TT, there is a high chance that, that particular player is going to be an all-star knowing West's track record in picking talent. 

I know West has lost it some in the past few years, but he has a killer instinct for talent netherless. I just hope Paxson isn't fooled into giving up one of his young studs..


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

The ROY said:


> That's not gonna happen, Jerry West is damn near a genius. He won't just GIVE him away. You only make THAT kinda deal when you find out he's injured and may never play again LOL.
> 
> Love deng but I have NO problem moving him for Gasol.


I agree. I like Deng, but I don't think he will ever be as good as Marion, and Marion is not a franchise player or a true sidekick. 

I like Deng, but a few things worry me: 1. Killer Instict, he seems to fade at times, and 2. Needs to get to the FT line. Granted he is 20/21, and can develop this. He is young enough to, but I feel that with tight defense, you can limit his game.

The only guy I'm not opposed to trading is Gordon. Only b/c we have players who can step in and fill the other person's role at all other positions. Gordon has that killer instict and clutchness. No one else has that.

I like Deng, but I don't love him. Gasol, I would love if he was on this team. You make this trade. If Deng had a better ability to create on his own, then I would be more hesistant.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> I agree SST. Negotiations are going on.
> 
> I like this trade that I 'proposed'.
> 
> ...


I don't think that'll happen for two reasons.

1. West isn't making this deal without that pick. He knows he needs to rebuild and he's going to try to get as many pieces out of the 2007 draft as he can.

2. In order for them to add Warrick, we're definintely gonna have to give them more than just my proposed deal. I don't see how Deng, Brown, Duhon + NY's pick gets US another player. We don't want Duhon much, Brown means nothing, the only true pieces to the deal are Deng & the NY pick. I think Gasol alone is worth that.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> Geniuses don't have 10-32 teams. Period.


That is a silly thing to say, and you obviously don't follow basketball enough to realize what you said.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

kulaz3000 said:


> If Paxson is smart, whomever West is the most aggressive about wanting whether it be Gordon, Deng or TT, there is a high chance that, that particular player is going to be an all-star knowing West's track record in picking talent.
> 
> I know West has lost it some in the past few years, but he has a killer instinct for talent netherless. I just hope Paxson isn't fooled into giving up one of his young studs..


If it's Deng, he'll put up All-Star numbers, but won't get the honor for several years b/c he'll be out West. Too many super star forwards.

We also would get a perennial All-Star forward in the East in Gasol. I hope Pax can squeeze out Warrick in this trade. Sleeper.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

lougehrig said:


> Geniuses don't have 10-32 teams. Period.


Hey, nobody's perfect but that doesn't stop him from being a very VERY smart GM.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Personally I would rather stand pat, and keep Deng and Gordon, then trade one of them for Gasol.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

The ROY said:


> I don't think that'll happen for two reasons.
> 
> 1. West isn't making this deal without that pick. He knows he needs to rebuild and he's going to try to get as many pieces out of the 2007 draft as he can.
> 
> 2. In order for them to add Warrick, we're definintely gonna have to give them more than just my proposed deal. I don't see how Deng, Brown, Duhon + NY's pick gets US another player. We don't want Duhon much, Brown means nothing, the only true pieces to the deal are Deng & the NY pick. I think Gasol alone is worth that.


I agree with all your points. I hope that West would throw in Warrick, but it likely won't happen.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

theanimal23 said:


> If it's Deng, he'll put up All-Star numbers, but won't get the honor for several years b/c he'll be out West. Too many super star forwards.
> 
> We also would get a perennial All-Star forward in the East in Gasol. I hope Pax can squeeze out Warrick in this trade. Sleeper.


Like i said in an earlier post, i wouldn't mind A.Johnson either. I think he is a definite sleeper..


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> If it's Deng, he'll put up All-Star numbers, but won't get the honor for several years b/c he'll be out West. Too many super star forwards.
> 
> We also would get a perennial All-Star forward in the East in Gasol. I hope Pax can squeeze out Warrick in this trade. Sleeper.


Why Warrick when you have TT? I wouldn't want to jeopardize his growth adding yet ANOTHER forward.

I may try to squeeze out Alexander Johnson to back up Gasol when Sweetney's gone next season though.

C Wallace / MLE? 2nd Rounder?
F Gasol / Johnson
F Thomas / Nocioni / Khyrapa

:cheers:


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I doubt this happens, but I would not be surprised, but definitely amazed, if this trade goes down with Thabo not Deng. Griffin can be our 'big' guard, until we grab one next year with the MLE.


I like Alexander Johnson too kulaz. I remember Mock drafts last year had him going Mid to Late 1st round, and Memphis just bought him from Portland in the 2nd round.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> Personally I would rather stand pat, and keep Deng and Gordon, then trade one of them for Gasol.


Huh? could you re-word that, didn't quite understand.

I wouldn't stand pat when we're one Pau Gasol away from taking over the east. The quicker he gets accustomed to the system, the more dangerous we will become.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> I doubt this happens, but I would not be surprised, but definitely amazed, if this trade goes down with Thabo not Deng. Griffin can be our 'big' guard, until we grab one next year with the MLE.
> 
> 
> I like Alexander Johnson too kulaz. I remember Mock drafts last year had him going Mid to Late 1st round, and Memphis just bought him from Portland in the 2nd round.


I dunno, but I'd gladly ADD Thabo to that package and keep Duhon. I'm not truely SOLD on that kid yet.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't see Thabo as our Guard of the future if he stays. He would be the one to eventually replace Deng and Noce. His shooting is just not consistant.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

According to a poster on realgm who's said to have some 'inside info' on West/Gasol, Grizz/Magic have a deal on the table :



> Grizzlies trade
> Pau Gasol
> Mike Miller
> (Contract Filler)
> ...


That's actually a very VERY good deal. Possibly even better than ours.

C Milicic
F Warrick / Johnson
F Gay
G -
G Nelson / Lowry

The rights to Fran Vazquez + their on 2007 1st? They could probably bring Hill back for cheap to mentor Rudy Gay also.

I like that.

A Gasol / Howard frontcourt would MURDER the NBA.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

The ROY said:


> I dunno, but I'd gladly ADD Thabo to that package and keep Duhon. I'm not truely SOLD on that kid yet.


Really? You'd rather Duhon over Thabo?

I would definitly rather Thabo at the risk of him not developing to what we all expect from him. His got good atheletic ability(though not great), has tremendous length, above average ball handling skills for his size, good defense(will only get better), crashes the boards and he doesn't go around wanting to throw up every shot he gets(Noc, Viktor). I think his definitly worth the gamble of keeping around to watch his development..

Whereas with Duhon, he has obviously limitations to his game, that i can't forsee him improving on. Only thing he can improve on in his shooting.. and all the other things he does well, i don't think we'll ever become great in. 

Thabo has the tools, to become a multi-talented do-it-all spark plug. I think his definitly worth keeping around to see what we have, and to see if he has what it takes to improve his game every year. BUT if he were the difference in whether we get Gasol or not, then i'd gladly give him the the Grizzlies.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Here's K.C.'s update:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...sbits,1,2517122.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

Paxson knows Bulls need guy like Gasol

By K.C. Johnson
Tribune staff reporter

January 23, 2007, 10:58 PM CST

From Media Night to Tuesday night, general manager John Paxson has been more consistent in knowing his needs than the team he assembled has been on the court.

Now, that need has a name—Pau Gasol.

Speaking publicly for the first time since it became public that Gasol wants out of Memphis and the Bulls have been contacted, Paxson addressed why Gasol makes sense—at the right price.

"[His versatility] and his size and his ability to score in the post … we need a guy like that," Paxson said. "We need somebody with length who can score around the basket and take some pressure off Ben [Wallace]. We do ask Ben to defend a lot of different people and clean up the boards.

"I know our main weakness: We need a [power forward] who can score. It's obvious. I'd like to address that. But I'm not going to mortgage the organization for that. I have a responsibility to ownership to not give up too much to get that. I'm going to explore whatever we can explore. If not, we're going to have to survive the way we're built right now."

* * * * *

"In this case, probably not so much," he said. "More will come down to if Memphis is in fact going to make a move, they're going to get the best deal they can get. That's what they should do. For us, it's very difficult to give up too much. If it's just going to be a lateral move, I tend to keep the assets we have and try to find some other way to get better."

"I have to be careful in terms of how we go about this thing and protecting our future," Paxson said. "If there's a deal to be done that makes us better, I'm not going to be conservative. But I'm also not going to throw some guys out there haphazardly to get us a player at a spot we need. Ultimately, what would happen then is we'd be back in a similar position at another spot. Then we'd need a small forward or a guard because we've given up too much."

Asked if he would look elsewhere to address the size issue if the Gasol talks didn't bear fruit, say for a Melvin Ely, Paxson repeated himself.

"If we can, but it's not like we can just pluck one out," he said. "I have to keep the long-term perspective in mind as well. I'm not going to do anything financially that inhibits us going forward. And we have some contracts coming up. So I have to be smart there."

Paxson also addressed the state of the Bulls, who, luckily, reside in the victory-challenged Eastern Conference.

"We've been up and down," Paxson said. "There are times we've looked really good. Offensively, we've moved the ball and made shots and looked really solid. Other times, like the last couple of games, we've looked almost dysfunctional. We're not moving the ball. We're turning it over. We're doing things you can't do if you want to win."

That up-and-down nature also colored Paxson's assessment of Wallace's season.

"He has had some moments where he has been terrific and had some moments where it has been a struggle for him," Paxson said. "Ben still brings intangibles as far as toughness that don't stand out in the box score. We've talked as a staff a lot about how many deflections he gets and how many times he disrupts offenses by reading situations. My hope is Ben's real value will come as we get to the playoffs and he can play with the passion and energy he has shown many times in his career."

In general, that passion and energy hasn't defined this Bulls team like the Bulls teams of the last two playoff seasons.

"There hasn't been that consistency that I think the really good teams have almost every night," Paxson admitted. "That is my worry: I'd like to see us more consistent."


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

The ROY said:


> According to a poster on realgm who's said to have some 'inside info' on West/Gasol, Grizz/Magic have a deal on the table :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That definitly fills their needs more so then what we have to offer. They get another young big in return, who they can sign next year alot cheaper, and they also get a good point in Nelson, AND a draft pick.

Thats a very good deal, whether it be speculation or not.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

The ROY said:


> According to a poster on realgm who's said to have some 'inside info' on West/Gasol, Grizz/Magic have a deal on the table :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope that would is not true. That frontcourt would OWN.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Oops I cut out the most interesting part:

*That's why trading two players from the core of Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and Andres Nocioni won't happen. It smacks of desperation, a sure sign a general manager needs a new occupation.*

"I have to be careful in terms of how we go about this thing and protecting our future," Paxson said. "If there's a deal to be done that makes us better, I'm not going to be conservative. But I'm also not going to throw some guys out there haphazardly to get us a player at a spot we need. Ultimately, what would happen then is we'd be back in a similar position at another spot. Then we'd need a small forward or a guard because we've given up too much."

* * * * * 

The context is interesting, though spoken in K.C.'s own words.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

The ROY said:


> According to a poster on realgm who's said to have some 'inside info' on West/Gasol, Grizz/Magic have a deal on the table :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I prefer the Deng/Thabo/Brown/pick package.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The ROY said:


> According to a poster on realgm who's said to have some 'inside info' on West/Gasol, Grizz/Magic have a deal on the table :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not sure that's a great deal for them. Milicic has done nothing in his career. Jameer is a shoot first PG who's not a great scorer. Vasquez is iffy as to whether he even plays in the NBA. AND, Memphis has to give up Miller too!?


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

If the Magic deal is on the table, we will lose. Unless it is Deng, Thabo and NYK pick, plus expirings. 

Pax won't trade away Tyrus. Deng is the logical choice b/c we have Noce to replace him. After reading the article, I don't know what to think. I know Pax and West have talked. Both would be stupid not to. Both teams have attractive pieces to offer. It comes down to how badly West wants to screw us and what else is out there.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

such sweet thunder said:


> Oops I cut out the most interesting part:
> 
> *That's why trading two players from the core of Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and Andres Nocioni won't happen. It smacks of desperation, a sure sign a general manager needs a new occupation.*
> 
> ...


From the point where he said that he doesn't want holes in either his forwards or guards position obviously means that West wanted Gordon and Deng or maybe even both..

I agree with Paxson, you just can't give up TOO MUCH, because then you'll just be starting over again if it doesn't work out WITHOUT the assets you once had.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

TripleDouble said:


> I'm not sure that's a great deal for them. Milicic has done nothing in his career. Jameer is a shoot first PG who's not a great scorer. Vasquez is iffy as to whether he even plays in the NBA. AND, Memphis has to give up Miller too!?


Now that I think about it, you're probably right.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Rawse said:


> I prefer the Deng/Thabo/Brown/pick package.


Yeah, our pick is going to substantialy better than the magic's and Nelson, unlike Deng, has wholes in his game that aren't going to be remedied with future development. I also remain unconvinced about Darko. I would go with the Bulls' package -- even sans Thabo -- if it has actually been presented.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I'm starting to get the feeling a deal is in the works and will be announced within 2 weeks.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> I'm starting to get the feeling a deal is in the works and will be announced within 2 weeks.


I have a feeling whatever deal happens will be done by the weekend. The Grizz's next home game is Saturday, and Pau will be booed mercilessly if he's still on the roster.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> I'm starting to get the feeling a deal is in the works and will be announced within 2 weeks.


If not sooner. If you're a GM, you stay as far away from a microphone in these situations unless something is actually going to happen.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

What do you guys think will be the package if it gets done? Do you think it is overpaying if we offer Deng, Thabo, and NYK?

Just curious on your thoughts. I think you have to do it. I really do not want to throw in Thabo, but a better opportunity will not present itself to get a big man that is young and without dismantling half the team.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Rawse said:


> I have a feeling whatever deal happens will be done by the weekend. The Grizz's next home game is Saturday, and Pau will be booed mercilessly if he's still on the roster.


Rawse, you've been following this closer than anyone: what do you think the trade will be?


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> Yeah, our pick is going to substantialy better than the magic's and Nelson, unlike Deng, has wholes in his game that aren't going to be remedied with future development. I also remain unconvinced about Darko. I would go with the Bulls' package -- even sans Thabo -- if it has actually been presented.


If Memphis trades Gasol for PJ Brown and smaller salaries, we'd have more than enough money to sign Milicic outright if we really wanted him bad enough.

Provided Orlando doesn't match, but that's another story.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> What do you guys think will be the package if it gets done? Do you think it is overpaying if we offer Deng, Thabo, and NYK?
> 
> Just curious on your thoughts. I think you have to do it. I really do not want to throw in Thabo, but a better opportunity will not present itself to get a big man that is young and without dismantling half the team.


If we throw in Thabo over Duhon, I would like to atleast get Alexander Johnson, Lawerence Roberts, Dahntay Jones or a 2nd rounder from Memphis.

I don't think that's too much at all.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Rawse, are you a Memphis fan? What do you think the deal will be? Think it is done very soon?


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

such sweet thunder said:


> Yeah, our pick is going to substantialy better than the magic's and Nelson, unlike Deng, has wholes in his game that aren't going to be remedied with future development. I also remain unconvinced about Darko. I would go with the Bulls' package -- even sans Thabo -- if it has actually been presented.


Remember, once we trade our pick to another pick, the swapping of picks with the Knicks become void as i recall.

So if we're trading our pick, it will be OUR pick and not the Knicks. And in the instance, we may end up with a better record then Orlando in season end..


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

kulaz3000 said:


> Remember, once we trade our pick to another pick, the swapping of picks with the Knicks become void as i recall.
> 
> So if we're trading our pick, it will be OUR pick and not the Knicks. And in the instance, we may end up with a better record then Orlando in season end..


I think you're mistaken. The swap is still valid, but it would continue to be tied to the Bulls and NY's record. So basically, we would be trading Memphis the rights to New York's pick -- wherever it ends up. New York will get the Bulls's pick, regardless.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

If I were Jerry West and I had to make a deal, it'd be for Gordon. I'd stick him at PG next to Miller and give him the green light. He'll certainly put butts in the seats.

If I'm Paxson and the deal is for Deng, I'd not include Thabo in the deal unless we got back Warrick.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Gasol ends up elsewhere.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> If I were Jerry West and I had to make a deal, it'd be for Gordon. I'd stick him at PG next to Miller and give him the green light. He'll certainly put butts in the seats.
> 
> If I'm Paxson and the deal is for Deng, I'd not include Thabo in the deal unless we got back Warrick.
> 
> I also wouldn't be surprised if Gasol ends up elsewhere.


I don't think Thabo gets us Warrick. When Gasol was done, Warrick looked like a top 3 Most Improved Player. Which is why I said, if Thabo is included instead of Du, Alexander Johnson, Lawerence Roberts or Dahntay Jones (6"6 SG) should ATLEAST be added to the deal.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Can't give Thabo away. That big guard is going to help plenty later in the season, plus Thabo has proved nasty on defense. 

I like the original proposal and feel its a fair deal...

Luol Deng
Chris Duhon
P.J. Brown
New York Knicks 1st Round Pick(via ours obviously)

for 

Pau Gasol
Alexander Johnson

Memphis gets another wing to pair with Gay and Deng is big enough that if West wants to go small, Deng can play the 4. P.J. had a nice game tonight and has that nice expiring contract, he'll get more PT in Memphis and be expected to do more in Memphis. Duhon is a pass-first point guard who is a solid starter especially on a 10-32 team. The Knicks pick should be in the 6-9 range which means Memphis will have two top 10 picks. 

PG-Chris Duhon/Damon Stoudamire/Kyle Lowry
SG-Rudy Gay Jr./Mike Miller
SF-Luol Deng/Brian Cardinal
PF-Kevin Durant/Hakim Warrick/Lawrence Roberts
C-Stromile Swift/Spencer Hawes

over 20 million dollars in cap space

That is a young team, but a lot of young players which West can package for a big-time player. Obviously, if Hawes or whoever doesn't come out, this draft is deep enough where West can find 2 contributors with his picks.

The Bulls will have a team that can win this year and several years after that...

PG-Kirk Hinrich/Thabo Sefolosha
SG-Ben Gordon/Adrian Griffin
SF-Andres Nocioni/Tyrus Thomas
PF-Pau Gasol/Alexander Johnson
C-Ben Wallace/MLE

Not bad at all. That starting 5 is a force, though we'll need to find some quality vet backups at center and PG. Not sure who is a free agent this year.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

T.Shock, I have a feeling if a deal happens, that is it. Duhon is sitting out so he doesn't hurt his back and fail a physical. And we are testing to see how well Thabo can replace Duhon this year for a playoff run.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

T.Shock said:


> PG-Chris Duhon/Damon Stoudamire/Kyle Lowry
> SG-Rudy Gay Jr./Mike Miller
> SF-Luol Deng/Brian Cardinal
> PF-Kevin Durant/Hakim Warrick/Lawrence Roberts
> C-Stromile Swift/Spencer Hawes


Swift @ C? nah. Hawes would be the man there with Durant playing next to him.

C Oden or Hawes
F Durant, Noah, Horford or Wright / Warrick
F Deng
G Gay
G Duhon / Lowry

now THAT is a future.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> T.Shock, I have a feeling if a deal happens, that is it. Duhon is sitting out so he doesn't hurt his back and fail a physical. And we are testing to see how well Thabo can replace Duhon this year for a playoff run.


Also, notice TT has been playing alot of SF (guarding Williams & J.J. on the perimeter).

Looks like Paxson maybe trying to see if TT is the man for the future of that position.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> Yeah, our pick is going to substantialy better than the magic's and Nelson, unlike Deng, has wholes in his game that aren't going to be remedied with future development. I also remain unconvinced about Darko. I would go with the Bulls' package -- even sans Thabo -- if it has actually been presented.


Isn't Orlando's pick going to Detroit via the Darko trade? Sounds like a fake "deal" to me. 

The thing about the Knicks' pick is that so6mewhere around game 70, the Knicks are going to realize that they aren't making the playoffs. Hopefully. So in theory they should lose a much higher % of games around the end of the season. That could be the difference between a 10 and a 6. 

Also, I try not to be too influenced by recent games, but the Knicks looked awful in Miami last night. Defensive breakdown after defensive breakdown. Nate Robinson has come back and is taking minutes from better players like Marbury, Jamal, QRich, or one of their forwards. Isiah refuses to start David Lee over Channing Frye. They may be hope yet. 

---

From West's initial offer, it appears that he is seeking proven talent, not raw players like Thabo and Tyrus. I'd be surprised if he chose to trade for them, or other players who have talent but haven't consistently produced like Green, Vasquez, Aldridge, etc. When you rebuild, you usually favor potential over production, but that doesn't seem to be the case with West. Deng might be more valuable for Memphis than I thought. 

I think Memphis fans and Jerry West have a drastically different vision of what kind of players to rebuild with. Or am I completely wrong?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I don't think Thabo gets us Warrick. When Gasol was done, Warrick looked like a top 3 Most Improved Player. Which is why I said, if Thabo is included instead of Du, Alexander Johnson, Lawerence Roberts or Dahntay Jones (6"6 SG) should ATLEAST be added to the deal.


With Deng gone, Thabo is going to play 20 minutes/game or more at SF.

Trade him and don't get any help back, we'll be playing Krappa.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> From West's initial offer, it appears that he is seeking proven talent, not raw players like Thabo and Tyrus. I'd be surprised if he chose to trade for them, or other players who have talent but haven't consistently produced like Green, Vasquez, Aldridge, etc. When you rebuild, you usually favor potential over production, but that doesn't seem to be the case with West.
> 
> I think Memphis fans and Jerry West have a drastically different vision of what kind of players to rebuild with. Or am I completely wrong?


I think you may be wrong. IMO he didn't ask for Gordon and Deng because they're proven, he asked for them because they are the best players on the Bulls and still very young. He was aiming high with his first offer.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> With Deng gone, Thabo is going to play 20 minutes/game or more at SF.


I seriously doubt that one.

My Deal :



> Chicago Trade Breakdown
> Outgoing
> 
> P.J. Brown
> ...


PLUS the NY Pick, I think that's a very good deal on both sides although I'd much rather give up Duhon over Thabo.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> With Deng gone, Thabo is going to play 20 minutes/game or more at SF.
> 
> Trade him and don't get any help back, we'll be playing Krappa.



I doubt Thabo plays that much at SF. The Bulls still would have solid depth their without Deng, and I would assume that Duhon would be included in the trade too, giving Thabo more backcourt responsibilities. If the trade is really Deng, Duhon and PJ, I could see the minutes breaking down like this:

C: Wallace 34 Gasol 14
PF: Gasol 24 Thomas 16 Allen/Sweetney 8
SF: Nocioni 30 Khryapa 10 Griffin 8
SG: Gordon 36 Thabo 8 Griffin 4
PG: Hinrich 36 Thabo 12


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> That isn't factoring in the NY pick, but I think that's a very good deal on both sides.


Who's our SF rotation?

Nocioni, and ... ?

I think Noc plays some PF still, after such a trade, FWIW. Gasol can't play 48 minutes every game.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> Who's our SF rotation?
> 
> Nocioni, and ... ?
> 
> I think Noc plays some PF still, after such a trade, FWIW. Gasol can't play 48 minutes every game.


Noc is gonna play SF, as will TT & VK.

With Gasol playing 38 mpg, Sweetney should EASILY be able to play those other 10 min, especially when Gasol slides to C. Hell, I actually would prefer to KEEP Sweetney next season if Gasol is added.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

well well, Looks like Gasol will be a bull by deadline at the latest.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Noc is gonna play SF, as will TT & VK.
> 
> With Gasol playing 38 mpg, Sweetney should EASILY be able to play those other 10 min, especially when Gasol slides to C. Hell, I actually would prefer to KEEP Sweetney next season if Gasol is added.


Yikes.

Picture this:

PG: Hinrich/Duhon/Griffin
SG: Gordon/Duhon/Griffin
C: Wallace, Gasol
PF: Gasol, Nocioni
SF: Nocioni, Warrick (or Thabo)

I would re-sign Sweetney in any case, even if we stand pat.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> Yikes.
> 
> Picture this:
> 
> ...



I'm trying to figure out where Tyrus in this scenario?


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> Rawse, you've been following this closer than anyone: what do you think the trade will be?


If I've learned anything about trades with Jerry West as my team's GM, it's that the trade will hardly ever be what you think it will be and that the trade will come totally out of left field. It will, for the most part, still make sense, at least in philosophy, but it won't be the team or players you've ever thought of.

Wes Person + future draft pick (turned out to be Khryapa) for Bonzi Wells? Came out of nowhere.

Drew Gooden + Gordan Giricek for Mike Miller + scrub? Out of nowhere.

Face of the franchise Shane Battier for Rudy Gay + Stromile Swift? Huge surprise.

Jason Williams + James Posey + Bonzi Wells for Eddie Jones and Bobby Jackson? Well, it was known West liked Eddie Jones and that JWill and Posey were as good as gone, but this was part of that eight-team, 56-player trade two summers ago. That was unexpected.

So, besides the JWill/Posey/Bonzi for EJ/BJax trade, there were little to absolutely no rumors about these deals before they were announced. West likes keeping things hush-hush on the trade front, and I'm a little surprised this Gasol mess is as public as it is, let alone West actually admitting who he's talked to.

That being said, the Bulls make the most sense to me as a destination, if they pony up what West is asking for. They'd be my frontrunner if I had to name one. But don't be surprised if it's Boston or Orlando or some darkhorse like Milwaukee. Actually, my biggest darkhorse right now is Golden State (whose roster is just stocked with young talent).

West won't be forced into making a trade by another GM and will stand pat if he doesn't think he's getting the better of the deal. But I think someone will give up an awful lot sometime soon and the deal will be done within a week.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I'm trying to figure out where Tyrus in this scenario?


Getting development minutes, as he is now. Thabo's not a very good guard. But he plays decent enough D as a SF (when we play small ball), is a good ballhandler for a SF (though Deng is way better), and he gets rebounds at a fine rate.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> I think you may be wrong. IMO he didn't ask for Gordon and Deng because they're proven, he asked for them because they are the best players on the Bulls and still very young. He was aiming high with his first offer.


That's true as well. But there are also reports that he turned down a package involving all of Boston's young players for Gasol. Memphis with Gordon and Deng leads to a much more competitive as soon as next year, assuming they get Noah or Oden. West clearly does not want to tank for a few seasons and accumulate talent. I'm guessing that would destroy the team's standing and lower attendance in Memphis even further.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Rawse said:


> That being said, the Bulls make the most sense to me as a destination, if they pony up what West is asking for. They'd be my frontrunner if I had to name one. But don't be surprised if it's Boston or Orlando or some darkhorse like Milwaukee. Actually, my biggest darkhorse right now is Golden State (whose roster is just stocked with young talent).


Good point

Boston (Jefferson, Green etc.), Golden State (Ellis, Biedrins etc.), Orlando (Milicic, Nelson etc.) all would be worthy moves also.

But I would think a move to Boston or G.S. may possibly not get done seeing as how Pau's agent will shoot for Gasol to a contender.

But Orlando :

C Howard
F Gasol
F Ariza
G Reddick
G Arroyo

They'd need some serious help @ the 1,2 & 3 but their frontcourt would be set forEVER!


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Rawse you make some great points. All of those trades left me wondering, what the hell are they thinking, or where did that come from.

I do think West and Pax are talking, but West will find better value elsewhere. Pax won't over pay. A team like GSW has plenty of talent (Ellis, Barnes, JRich, etc) that can be moved. It will be a team we did not expect. Chicago is the most logical destination, but Pax won't overpay. I'm not saying we should, but some team will do that. If a deal is not done by the end of this week with us, I will think this is done, kaput, dead.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> If I were Jerry West and I had to make a deal, it'd be for Gordon. I'd stick him at PG next to Miller and give him the green light. He'll certainly put butts in the seats.
> 
> If I'm Paxson and the deal is for Deng, I'd not include Thabo in the deal unless we got back Warrick.
> 
> * I also wouldn't be surprised if Gasol ends up elsewhere.*


For emphasis.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

pau is 7-0 tall. Career. 18.6, .508 shooting (57% so far after 20 games) .222 in threes(.333 after 20 games) 8.3 rebounds, 3 assists, 1/2 steal and 1.8 blocks a game!!! You have a real chance to get a player like gasol, a player that would fit in well with your offense and defense, you do it. If all it costs us is deng and brown and filler without Gordon being involved, I will be in estasy!


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

If that Orlando deal is real, Pax needs to get a Gasol deal done not only to improve the Bulls, but also to prevent Orlando from having the Easts', really maybe even the league's dominant frontcourt for the next 5-7 years


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Kirilenko now appears to be on the market also. That's another option for 'The Logo'. Although, @ this point, I don't know how he'd feel about his contract.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Rawse said:


> So, besides the JWill/Posey/Bonzi for EJ/BJax trade, there were little to absolutely no rumors about these deals before they were announced. West likes keeping things hush-hush on the trade front, and I'm a little surprised this Gasol mess is as public as it is, let alone West actually admitting who he's talked to.


It appears to me that Gasol's agent may be leading the charge for a deal, hence the public speculation. Sam Smith had an article a couple of days ago quoting Tellum; hinting that Gasol may be making a semi-public demand.


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## BeZerker2008 (Jun 29, 2006)

I think that maybe the increase in playing time for unlikely players (Sweets, TT, Thabo & PJ) might be for showcasing to West their talents? Normally skiles would go with the the normal group of guys he's been with to try and win games & lately we've been seeing this with the guys mentioned. (even though those games we really sucked in)

Also with duhon sitting out, it has me thinking something might go down soon. (at least I hope it does) 

I would have the following players available for trade: Duhon, Deng, Sweets, Viktor, PJ, Pick, Tyrus Thomas

I would try to keep Thabo because if moved deng & sefolosha in a deal we would be extremely short in the guard spots. Sefolosha is someone who can guard teams big players & we would be depleted and vulnerable at the 2-spot if we gave both of those players away.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

BeZerker2008 said:


> I think that maybe the increase in playing time for unlikely players (Sweets, TT, Thabo & PJ) might be for showcasing to West their talents? Normally skiles would go with the the normal group of guys he's been with to try and win games & lately we've been seeing this with the guys mentioned. (even though those games we really sucked in)
> 
> Also with duhon sitting out, it has me thinking something might go down soon. (at least I hope it does)
> 
> ...


That's cool and all but what package are you offering?

Like I said, if Thabo is involved, Dahntay Jones should be coming our way. He's a 6"6 athletic guard who may not be the defender Thabo is but he's much more explosive.

Some of the Memphis posters have made good points about West not wanting to take on 'raw' players. Duhon may work better for Memphis in this scenario.

G Duhon / Lowry
G Gay / Miller
F Deng / Cardinal
F Warrick / Johnson

NY pick, Memphis pick + extra cap (P.J.), they'll definintely have a solid foundation for the future.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Duhon is sitting because other teams are trying to overwhelm our small-ish backcourt with size. Atlanta was using a backcourt of Childress and Johnson at one point. It's a slightly disturbing trend, if you can call two games that.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

I think it is hard to guage what Gasol's NBA value is for most of us.

I think the deal will be similar to the one I have been pimping:

Deng, thabo, Brown as a base

The holdup I think is the Bulls want to protect the NY pick, keep Tyrus and the Grizz want to add a bad contract and not give up another asset.

So here are some of my versions.

A. Base, NY pick, filler for Gasol, Cardinal

B. Base, NY pick, Tyrus for Gasol, Warrick, Dahnyty

C. Base, Tyrus for Gasol, Warrick Cardinal

D. Base, Duhon, NY pick for Gasol, Warrick, Damon Stoudamire

E. Base, NY pick for Gasol


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## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

I like Gasol but personally think he is a little overrated and fear giving up too much. 

Too bad Rashard Lewis is hurt, would've loved to go after him


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## BeZerker2008 (Jun 29, 2006)

The ROY said:


> That's cool and all but what package are you offering?
> 
> Like I said, if Thabo is involved, Dahntay Jones should be coming our way. He's a 6"6 athletic guard who may not be the defender Thabo is but he's much more explosive.
> 
> ...



I can't even image what deal I would do but any combination of those players I mentioned would do for Gasol & filler, unless we're depleted at one spot which in that case I would ask for one of their players.

Since I really haven't seen any of the Grizzlies characters I'm sure Pax is smart enough to know which player to choose from.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Personally, I'm not sure I would include any of Deng, Hinrich, or Gordon in a Gasol deal. Deng is an 18/6 player at 21, and Gordon is a 21 point scorer at 23.

Gasol is highly skilled, a very good player, but he's not one to carry a team singlehandedly. He's better than any Bulls player but I get the feeling this would be a lateral move. Plus we'd be getting older, although not by much.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

I hope we keep the Knicks pick, and I'd be willing to substitute Thabo instead. Houston was going to take Thabo with the 8th overall pick before Memphis came offering Battier. Utah & Phoenix also had him highly rated. 

Thabo is replaceable in the short-term through a combination of Griffin, possibly Dahntay Jones, or my preference which is a deal for Bonzi Wells (who's contract has an out-clause after this year). Memphis will probably buy-out Eddie Jones and he could be a decent stop-gap option too. The long-term replacement for Thabo could come via the Knicks pick (Rudy Fernandez, Marco Bellinini). Sign Ely as a free agent. We're set.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> Personally, I'm not sure I would include any of Deng, Hinrich, or Gordon in a Gasol deal. Deng is an 18/6 player at 21, and Gordon is a 21 point scorer at 23.
> 
> Gasol is highly skilled, a very good player, but he's not one to carry a team singlehandedly. He's better than any Bulls player but I get the feeling this would be a lateral move. Plus we'd be getting older, although not by much.


Positional value matters. Almost every team in the league has a quality small forward. The Bulls have 2 (Deng and Nocioni), 2 more that could grow into the position (Thomas and Thabo), and 2 that could easily fill in if needed (Griffin and Khryapa). Atlanta has Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, and Marvin Williams. Washington has Jamison and Butler. Phoenix has Marion and Diaw. Memphis has Mike Miller and Rudy Gay. Etc.

Deng is strictly a SF. He's not quick enough to play SG, and can only play PF in certain match-ups. He has less value because of this, even though he's young and very good.

Gasol is a *Forward/Center*. There are very few quality F/Cs in the league. The Bulls desperately need a tall big man and Gasol may be their only chance at one. 

Trading two of the core, as long as one is not Gordon, is not a lateral move at all. Let's assume the worst case scenario: Hinrich and Deng for Gasol. 

Gasol-Wallace-Nocioni-Thabo-Gordon is absolutely 5-10 games better than Brown/Nocioni-Wallace-Deng-Hinrich-Gordon. Sure, there's a loss of production at SF and PG, but there's a huge, huge gain at C. The first lineup is better short-term and long-term. 



such sweet thunder said:


> Oops I cut out the most interesting part:
> 
> *That's why trading two players from the core of Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and Andres Nocioni won't happen. It smacks of desperation, a sure sign a general manager needs a new occupation.*
> 
> ...


Hopefully KC is wrong, or perhaps this is media posturing in response to West. Maybe the Grizzlies are demanding Gordon and that's the reason Paxson is holding off. Paxson is a good negotiator, I think.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

I'm changing my mind on the Gasol deal. 

First, after watching the game tonight, I can say without any doubt that the Bulls need to revert back to their past starting lineup. Gordon has proven once again that he does not play as well when he starts. I've become further convinced that Skiles should make Noc a starter again so that he gets more minutes paired with Deng. Noc is a tweener whos best position is power forward. At the four, he can used his handle and his range to draw larger men out, but he is a step too slow to cover guard-like small forwards. 

Of course, his lack of size hurts him on the glass and on defense. And that is why he's such a perfect pairing for Luol Deng. Lou is a pinch faster and can cover small forwards, but is big enough to hit the glass with post players. Together they form an excellent pairing.

Which brings me to the proposed Luol Deng for Gasol trades. If the move happens, the Bulls will be stuck trying to play Nocioni at small-forward again. I'd much rather have a front court of Pao Gasol, Andres Nocioni, and Luol Deng then Ben Wallace, Pao Gasol, and Andres Nocioni. The first lineup is quick, can rebound, is great at moving the ball, and although not lock-down on defense, would be quite versatile. The second lineup just looks like an odd mismatch of parts. As the old boxing saying goes, "styles make fights." That is a lineup not built to do anything well. 

Thus, I would advocate that we ship Gordon. Perhaps Gordon, PJ and the pick at some level of protection?

And to answer the question of what to do with Big Ben, I would say bring him off the bench. If Wallace isn't happy in that role (and I don't doubt that he wouldn't be) ship him for a developing big, or quick-offense guard we can bring off the bench. Maybe Jason Richardson?

I know everyone is clamoring to move Deng because we rely so much on Gordon's scoring -- but a good part of the reason why the Bulls rely so much on Gordon putting the ball in the hoop is that we don't get anything from our front line. Gasol would remedy that.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> I'm changing my mind on the Gasol deal.
> 
> First, after watching the game tonight, I can say without any doubt that the Bulls need to revert back to their past starting lineup. Gordon has proven once again that he does not play as well when he starts. I've become further convinced that Skiles should make Noc a starter again so that he gets more minutes paired with Deng. Noc is a tweener whos best position is power forward. At the four, he can used his handle and his range to draw larger men out, but he is a step too slow to cover guard-like small forwards.
> 
> ...


But we dont really improve, do we? With Gordon staying here his scoring should soar. Gasol will demand a double team. TT, Nocioni and even Thabo can play sf.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

I think a lot of people are overpaying for Gasol. 

Gasol is not worth Deng and PJ. Deng is as good as Gasol and is only 21.
(Remember PJ is worth significant cap space. He is NOT just filler)

As far as Gordon is concerned, we are talking a premier NBA scoring guard. PJ + Gordon might be a fair trade for Gasol, but the Bulls shouldn't make it. Gordon will be too hard to replace. 

The Bulls are obviously offering up Thalbo as the rookie lottery pick who could be the Memphis shooting guard of the future. Otherwise the disproportionate playing time he has been getting in the last two games is hard to explain.

I think the Bulls can offer an attractive package of young players (Andriuskevicius & Thalbo), veteran expiring contracts (PJ, Allen, Sweetney = $12.5 M), and draft picks (2007 & 2009 1st round, 2007 & 2008 2nd round) to the cash-starved Grizzlies. No need to include any core players. 

Grizzlies are looking for new ownership and may very well leave Memphis, so the opinion of Memphis fans is secondary. The primary thing West has to do is to shape Memphis into a saleable property. That means he needs to reduced payroll -- preferably below the salary cap, and acquire future assets -- very young players with upside and draft picks. The Bulls can offer this without including core players.

If the Bulls can't get Gasol without dealing Deng or Gordon, they should tell West to go fish.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

There's a bit in Brian Hanley's Sun-Times story on Pax's litte talk that isn't in KCs:



> PRICE IS RIGHT? The key question now is what will it take to get the Grizzlies to pull the trigger on a trade. Memphis probably would jump at a package that includes Ben Gordon and Deng -- as the New York Post reported Sunday -- but it's doubtful Paxson would agree to that.
> 
> ''[Gordon and Deng] have more value today then they did before the season started,'' Paxson said. ''That's a good thing if we're talking about names.
> 
> ''The one thing I don't like about stuff like this is that their names are out there. *Everybody in this league would love to have Lu Deng and Ben Gordon. I'm glad we have them, but it's very hard for them to read things and, hopefully, they understand. Until something happens, I hope they don't worry about it*.''


Not sure what the heck that means.

Paxson knows Bulls need guy like Gasol


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

McBulls said:


> I think a lot of people are overpaying for Gasol.
> 
> Gasol is not worth Deng and PJ. Deng is as good as Gasol and is only 21.
> (Remember PJ is worth significant cap space. He is NOT just filler)
> ...


:clap2: Hope you are right but really doubt it.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

eymang said:


> I like Gasol but personally think he is a little overrated and fear giving up too much.
> 
> Too bad Rashard Lewis is hurt, would've loved to go after him


Lewis over Gasol? oooooooookay


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

i'll resist the urge to raise the ire of the entire board, but i feel the particulars in the speculative trade are pretty far off. since i'm not a gm, nor have i attempted to put together a team from scratch like paxson is attempting to do, i'll offer this:

can anyone show the results of a trade wherein a (super)star was traded and the trad"or" got equal value for the star player from the trad"ee"? (lol)

if there is evidence of one, then i can see all the deng, gordon, thabo, blah, blah, blah ideas;

if not, then consider a brown, sweetney, and/or duhon(possibly, but least likely), griffin, cash, and/or pick (or less) for gasol + filler. 

i'm sure the armchair GM's will state the obvious "memphis doesn't want our garbage", but i'm looking for evidence where the trador (and i don't care if it is "the logo" making the trade, that's irrelvant) got even what's considered "market value" for a star, especially one who's made trade demands public.

i ain't sayin, i'm just sayin......


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

If this is really going to happen. The guy shipped out better be Deng. Gasol-Gordon 1-2 punch makes more sense than Gasol-Deng. Plus it's harder to replace Gordon than Deng. Gordon is the only guy who can create his own shot. We need that down the line. After watching Gasol all these years, there will be time when you need a player like Ben Gordon to pick it up when going through Gasol is not enough to get you a win. Gordon is lethal as a sidekick to a star low post scorer.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

rwj333 said:


> Positional value matters. Almost every team in the league has a quality small forward. The Bulls have 2 (Deng and Nocioni), 2 more that could grow into the position (Thomas and Thabo), and 2 that could easily fill in if needed (Griffin and Khryapa). Atlanta has Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, and Marvin Williams. Washington has Jamison and Butler. Phoenix has Marion and Diaw. Memphis has Mike Miller and Rudy Gay. Etc.
> 
> Deng is strictly a SF. He's not quick enough to play SG, and can only play PF in certain match-ups. He has less value because of this, even though he's young and very good.


First, Joe Johnson is not a SF, he's more of a SG/PG for the Hawks. Second, I'd take Deng over any other SF on that list. In fact, I'd consider LeBron and Carmelo (McGrady and Pierce, too, if you consider them SFs) as the only players at their position better than Deng. If Deng is already "very good" at 21, how good will he be at 24? 



> Trading two of the core, as long as one is not Gordon, is not a lateral move at all. Let's assume the worst case scenario: Hinrich and Deng for Gasol.
> 
> Gasol-Wallace-Nocioni-Thabo-Gordon is absolutely 5-10 games better than Brown/Nocioni-Wallace-Deng-Hinrich-Gordon. Sure, there's a loss of production at SF and PG, but there's a huge, huge gain at C. *The first lineup is better short-term and long-term.*


I completely disagree there. The Hinrich/Deng team might be better, and I certainly wouldn't expect an improvement of 5-10 games. Nocioni's production is much better at PF, where he can take advantage of slower players. Moving him to SF will produce more than a slight drop off in production at SF. Going from Hinrich to Thabo is another big drop off.


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## bigdbucks (Jun 7, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> I think it is hard to guage what Gasol's NBA value is for most of us.
> 
> I think the deal will be similar to the one I have been pimping:
> 
> ...


So in other words Deng (18/6), Thabo (lottery pick), Brown (HUGE expiring contract/major relief), NY Pick (lottery pick) and maybe Tyrus (lottery pick) FOR Gasol (I think overrated for a guy that doesn't and probably never will average 20/10) and maybe another undersized 4 in Warrick, Cardinal.

Not to mention that this could be the best draft in years so losing NY's pick would be even worse

I think I'll take my chances with what we have. 

Can someone tell me how Memphis has gone from a playoff team to worst team in the league so fast? Pau was out for a while but even while he's been back they still haven't been winning games like they did last year.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

bigdbucks said:


> Can someone tell me how Memphis has gone from a playoff team to worst team in the league so fast? Pau was out for a while but even while he's been back they still haven't been winning games like they did last year.


My theory, that team can't figure out which direction they're going. Early in the season I think they just stuck to their old gameplan. But, without Gasol things didn't work quite right. Then they realize, even with Gasol, they're not going too far. Because they basically don't have a capable second option. Rudy Gay is not ready to step up. Mike Miller is not it. And they don't have trade assets to acquire stars like for instance Paul Pierce who would put them over the top. So they're stuck with Gasol and a not good enough supporting cast. Fratello then got axed. That's a clear sign of change direction. They're definitely going for the lottery. They're looking at different possibilities like what kind of talent they can get for Gasol and at the end of the year they can say... "ok, here's what we got to go forward with the new plan. Let's build on this."


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