# Andrew Bogut has come out of the closet as well



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

He finallly is revealing that he is a bust.

He says it's time to stop hiding behind people that want to blame his coach, and despite playing with a bunch of talented players he can't get the Bucks to a respectful record in the lEast.

He will continue his Chris Mihm level of play regardless of who is out with injury.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

haha. brilliant!


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

I dunno, his last game was rough but before that he was doing some serious numbers, rebounding at least.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

But his coach and conventional wisdom say he shouldn't be judged a) in 2, 3 years or b) with his best player injured.


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## vincedunkedonzo2 (Jan 29, 2007)

Of course he was a bust. Teams always wanna take some international prospect and most of them get busts. I thought by the thread title you were gonna say he is gay.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

My impression from Bucks fans was that they simply don't give Bogut the ball enough. He seems to score reasonably efficiently, he's a good passer and rebounder. Most just seem to think he isn't involved in the offense enough.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I really don't know how people can call Bogut a bust when no reasonable person ever had much expectation that he'd ever be more than what he is.He's a center and it's hard to find a center.How many NBA centers are really more productive than Bogut?

If anything the only people who have ever had any expectations are the ones who've been beating this bust drum.There really isn't any evidence that he's a bust unless you were stupid enough to believe that he was going to be a superstar.If anything the people who expected him to be some huge bust and beat on him like a drum just look foolish.The only players from that draft that are obviously better than Bogut are Deron Williams and Chris Paul.Marvin Williams hasn't done **** and at the time he was the only other player the Bucks considered taking.Is Marvin Williams a bust too?If you compared him to other players at his position and compared Bogut to other centers Bogut would look pretty good and Marvin Williams would look horrible.

Bogut is still a center and I guess he's a top ten center.If he's disappointed anyone it's not because he sucks,but because he doesn't suck enough for them.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Sure would love to have that bust on my team.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Diable said:


> I really don't know how people can call Bogut a bust when no reasonable person ever had much expectation that he'd ever be more than what he is.He's a center and it's hard to find a center.How many NBA centers are really more productive than Bogut?
> 
> If anything the only people who have ever had any expectations are the ones who've been beating this bust drum.There really isn't any evidence that he's a bust unless you were stupid enough to believe that he was going to be a superstar.If anything the people who expected him to be some huge bust and beat on him like a drum just look foolish.The only players from that draft that are obviously better than Bogut are Deron Williams and Chris Paul.Marvin Williams hasn't done **** and at the time he was the only other player the Bucks considered taking.Is Marvin Williams a bust too?If you compared him to other players at his position and compared Bogut to other centers Bogut would look pretty good and Marvin Williams would look horrible.
> 
> Bogut is still a center and I guess he's a top ten center.If he's disappointed anyone it's not because he sucks,but because he doesn't suck enough for them.


You should of read the threads prior to him playing his first game. People comparing him to Duncan, Webber, Pau Gasol or at least Brad Miller. People saying he was better than Yao. People calling him the best center to enter the league since Shaq. Those guys are either dissapointed or liars.

When you draft a center #1 overall and already have an all-star on your team you should at least expect him to keep you in the playoffs. Bogut would of been a decent pick between 5-10, like where Chris Mihm was drafted.

Is Marvin Williams a bust? He probably will be, but I don't think he is far behind where people expected him to be at this point in his career.



> My impression from Bucks fans was that they simply don't give Bogut the ball enough. He seems to score reasonably efficiently, he's a good passer and rebounder. Most just seem to think he isn't involved in the offense enough.


Yeah, that's where my blame the coach remark came from. You can blame Larry Harris as well. With 4 of their 5 starters injured (Bogut being the only healthy one) he traded for Boykins and they still didn't make Bogut the center piece.

Bogy is just a supporting player.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

two words: Terry Stotts


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

*Unecessary*


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> You should of read the threads prior to him playing his first game. People comparing him to Duncan, Webber, Pau Gasol or at least Brad Miller. People saying he was better than Yao. People calling him the best center to enter the league since Shaq. Those guys are either dissapointed or liars.


pretty much everyone big man has been called better than yao at some point in the past couple years, so thats not saying much.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

I always expected nothing more then maybe a 15/7 guy really. That was about it


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## Bon]{eRz (Feb 23, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> You should of read the threads prior to him playing his first game. People comparing him to Duncan, Webber, Pau Gasol or at least Brad Miller. People saying he was better than Yao. People calling him the best center to enter the league since Shaq.


Don't make up flat out lies to support your argument. Which reasonable bball fanbase was saying that Bogut is the next coming of Duncan, Webber, Pau Gasol, Yao or Shaq? 

There might have been a miniscule scattering of extremely biased/delusional milwakee/bogut fans (and I can't say I've seen many of those on this board), but if you start a thread on this topic and it is targeted at that group then you should qualify it. Considering that for any 1 fan on this board who predicted that Bogut would be a good player in this league there were another 3 who without even seeing him play his first game of NBA bball already dismissed him comparing him to white stiffs in the league (Mihm), I would say he is easily living upto the expectations which the broader fanbase had of him. 



> Bogut would of been a decent pick between 5-10, like where Chris Mihm was drafted.


2005 was a weak class, and if the draft was to be re-run the only obvious picks ahead of Bogut might be Deron Williams and Chris Paul. Can you please name your 5, and I'd love to see 10, players from that draft class who you think are a clear cut above Bogut? Thanks



> Is Marvin Williams a bust? He probably will be, but I don't think he is far behind where people expected him to be at this point in his career.


Darko Milicic is only 1 year older than Marvin, they are at the same point in their careers, so just out of curiosity have you been consistent and also defended Darko from being labelled a bust prematurely on the basis of him not being far behind where the people who drafted him as a project expected him to be?

So if Bogut's expectations by the general nba fanbase weren't high to begin with, and if he would still be a top 3 pick if the draft was redone with hindsight, then what is it that you are basing your statement on that Bogut is bust? What's your point of reference? 



> People comparing him to Duncan, Webber, Pau Gasol or at least *Brad Miller*


You lost all credibility when you included Brad Miller in that group. So you would take Miller on your team ahead of Bogut? :laugh:


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Is Marvin Williams a bust? He probably will be, but I don't think he is far behind where people expected him to be at this point in his career.


Did you really perceive that there was that huge an expectations gap between the two when they drafted?

There was not, which is probably why you are incorrectly labelling Bogut as a bust/


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

hahahaha


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## Burn (Feb 2, 2003)

Last game he had 9 8 and 7. Game before that 16 and 17. Seems like a weird time to post this thread, but I guess the timing didn't matter when the prospect of titling it 'Andrew Bogut has come out of the closet' entered your mind. You must have been so excited.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

He's already better than Chris Mihm has ever been, so that's not a real concern. It might turn out that the Vlade Divac comparisons were accurate, but that still remains to be seen, and that's not a bad thing anyways. He really doesn't do anything that you can criticize him about, he just fails to be marvelous consistency.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> He finallly is revealing that he is a bust.
> 
> He says it's time to stop hiding behind people that want to blame his coach, and despite playing with a bunch of talented players he can't get the Bucks to a respectful record in the lEast.
> 
> He will continue his Chris Mihm level of play regardless of who is out with injury.



Get some new material, you keep recycling the same garbage every couple of weeks.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

The guy is a damned BUST.

You hearing me, FruityVixen?

*Who's your daddy?*


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## LeroyJames (Aug 22, 2004)

Luc Longley > Bustgut


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

12 points, 9 rebounds, 3 assists, 55% shooting.

those aren't bad numbers at all. and no he isn't the best player out of his draft, but i only see a few more guys that are actually better than him.

he's not a great #1 pick, but definitely not a bust.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

rocketeer said:


> 12 points, 9 rebounds, 3 assists, 55% shooting.
> 
> those aren't bad numbers at all. and no he isn't the best player out of his draft, but i only see a few more guys that are actually better than him.
> 
> he's not a great #1 pick, but definitely not a bust.



A sane post for a change.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

rainman said:


> A sane post for a change.


Not really.

Picking a Center with the #1 pick in the draft means you are going for a Franchise player.

Guess what? Andrew Bustgut is light-years away from being a franchise player.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Paulo your arguments are just retarded,but you're never going to quit worshipping your own opinion so I'm not going to be retarded enough to care.You start out with one asinine opinion based upon some asinine edict that has no relation to the strength of the 2005.

Here is a simple guideline for you.When you make a draft pick you are trying to help your team win games and there are no idiotic maxims to guide you.You take point guards and centers above other players of comparable ability because they are the most difficult positions to fill in the NBA.It doesn't have a damned thing to do with whether or not the guy is a franchise player or if the pick is the first in the draft or the last one.All your argument has to do iwth is mindless hyperbole intended to bait other posters.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Diable said:


> Paulo your arguments are just retarded,but you're never going to quit worshipping your own opinion so I'm not going to be retarded enough to care.You start out with one asinine opinion based upon some asinine edict that has no relation to the strength of the 2005.
> 
> Here is a simple guideline for you.When you make a draft pick you are trying to help your team win games and there are no idiotic maxims to guide you.You take point guards and centers above other players of comparable ability because they are the most difficult positions to fill in the NBA.It doesn't have a damned thing to do with whether or not the guy is a franchise player or if the pick is the first in the draft or the last one.All your argument has to do iwth is mindless hyperbole intended to bait other posters.


Sonny, don't bother...

The Bucks selected Bustgut as a #1 pick when they already had an all-star center on the team. They didn't try to trade down or whatever. A busted pick.

And if you don't like me saying drafting centers high in the draft as a risky move, just check out Olowokandi, Joe Barry Carroll and, most of all, Sam Bowie, to see how they are quickly(and rightully) called busts...


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## chocolove (Apr 4, 2006)

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Of course he was a bust. Teams always wanna take some international prospect and most of them get busts. I thought by the thread title you were gonna say he is gay.


Wasnt he drafted out of college? I know he wasnt born in the states but I thought international prospect means someone that didnt come out of college in north america.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Did you really perceive that there was that huge an expectations gap between the two when they drafted?
> 
> There was not, which is probably why you are incorrectly labelling Bogut as a bust/


i think there was the perception that marvin williams was and still is a bit of a prospect. bogut is the type of guy that was supppose to have a huge impact immediately


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Well, they didn't really need one of the point guards because they have TJ Ford.... oh wait.

That was a very strange draft in that Chris Paul was CLEARLY the best player yet he wasn't even the first point guard taken. 

I think it's a bit premature to be calling Bogut a bust. Interesting that you mention the Bucks already had an "all-star" center when they drafted him. Bogut is better already than Magloire has ever been.

He's putting up decent numbers and he seems to enjoy playing the game - which seperates him already from Kwame and Olowakandi. 

He's not what you would want out of a number 1 pick most years, but he's a decent enough player.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Bon]{eRz said:


> Don't make up flat out lies to support your argument. Which reasonable bball fanbase was saying that Bogut is the next coming of Duncan, Webber, Pau Gasol, Yao or Shaq?
> 
> There might have been a miniscule scattering of extremely biased/delusional milwakee/bogut fans (and I can't say I've seen many of those on this board), but if you start a thread on this topic and it is targeted at that group then you should qualify it. Considering that for any 1 fan on this board who predicted that Bogut would be a good player in this league there were another 3 who without even seeing him play his first game of NBA bball already dismissed him comparing him to white stiffs in the league (Mihm), I would say he is easily living upto the expectations which the broader fanbase had of him.


Buddy, I can link threads in this very forum where people are making those comparisons. Never said Yao or Shaq... Bogut plays nothing like either of those guys and anyone can tell that. I said people were saying he was better than Yao. He was the popular pick for rookie of the year.



> 2005 was a weak class, and if the draft was to be re-run the only obvious picks ahead of Bogut might be Deron Williams and Chris Paul. Can you please name your 5, and I'd love to see 10, players from that draft class who you think are a clear cut above Bogut? Thanks


I would take Paul, Williams and Villaneauva easily and consider Bynum, Lee and Ellis (better than Mo Williams) as well. Plus the "weak draft class" supports the bust claim maybe, but not the claim that he is dissapointing and isn't doing anything for the Bucks Magloire couldn't do.

Bogut's impact is comparable to Danny Granger. Good player, but he's a 4th option on a 60 win team, and if he's one of your two best players than you are in the lottery.




> Darko Milicic is only 1 year older than Marvin, they are at the same point in their careers, so just out of curiosity have you been consistent and also defended Darko from being labelled a bust prematurely on the basis of him not being far behind where the people who drafted him as a project expected him to be?


I'm not even defending Marvin, so this was a worthless question. I said Marvin would be a bust before he was even drafted, but I think even the Marvin fans didn't expect him to be tearing up the league in year 2. Nobody was calling Darko a bust half way in year 2 either. Darko is in year 4. Age is pretty much irrelevant in comparison to years in the league.

Bogy was the national player of the year, Marvin wasn't even a starter.



> So if Bogut's expectations by the general nba fanbase weren't high to begin with, and if he would still be a top 3 pick if the draft was redone with hindsight, then what is it that you are basing your statement on that Bogut is bust? What's your point of reference?


You're first statement is false, so the question is irrelevant. 




> You lost all credibility when you included Brad Miller in that group. So you would take Miller on your team ahead of Bogut? :laugh:


Brad Miller is a two time all-star, he is sharply declining after turning 30. If I said Bogut isn't as good as Wilt Chamberlin, that doesn't mean I would take Wilt's corpse over Bogut.



Diable said:


> Here is a simple guideline for you.When you make a draft pick you are trying to help your team win games and there are no idiotic maxims to guide you.You take point guards and centers above other players of comparable ability because they are the most difficult positions to fill in the NBA.It doesn't have a damned thing to do with whether or not the guy is a franchise player or if the pick is the first in the draft or the last one


Bogut isn't helping them though. They were an 8th seed last year despite all the fire power around him and now they are a lottery team. The team suffers a rash of injuries and his play stays about the same. He is just a role player.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> I would take Paul, Williams and Villaneauva easily and consider Bynum, Lee and Ellis (better than Mo Williams) as well. Plus the "weak draft class" supports the bust claim maybe, but not the claim that he is dissapointing and isn't doing anything for the Bucks Magloire couldn't do.


i'll give you paul, felton, and deron. but the bucks had ford and mo williams at the time. they weren't taking a pg. i'll give you lee and then bynum could potentially be better. other than that, i don't see anyone.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

rocketeer said:


> 12 points, 9 rebounds, 3 assists, 55% shooting.
> 
> those aren't bad numbers at all. and no he isn't the best player out of his draft, but i only see a few more guys that are actually better than him.
> 
> he's not a great #1 pick, but definitely not a bust.


If after 2 seasons you would not go top 10 in a redraft...YOU ARE A BUST!



> "There's no one I really hate, but Kobe [Bryant] had a demeanor of being very cocky," he said. "What happened with Shaq. . . . If I had a chance to play with Shaq or Tim, if they told me to buy them groceries, I don't care, I buy them groceries. It's a gift to play with somebody like that. Kobe is probably one of the guys that, everybody knows it, he's got that cocky arrogance to him, everything has to surround around him the whole time. Otherwise, he doesn't function. That's the biggest example.
> 
> "If you're playing with Shaquille [O'Neal], a Hall of Famer, you keep your mouth shut and play if you want more rings," Bogut continued.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> If after 2 seasons you would not go top 10 in a redraft...YOU ARE A BUST!


not in the top 10? please name your 10 that you would take over him.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

> Age is pretty much irrelevant in comparison to years in the league.


WTF?


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Bon{eRz said:


> Don't make up flat out lies to support your argument. Which reasonable bball fanbase was saying that Bogut is the next coming of Duncan, Webber, Pau Gasol, Yao or Shaq?


i definitely remember a good number of posters saying bogut would be better than yao when he came in to the league because bogut had that "mean streak" and yao was soft.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

People were comparing him to Duncan on this site. But people also compared Marvin Williams to James Worthy, and Gerald Green to Tracy McGrady. So I guess it could've been worse


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> WTF?


I mean I consider a 21 year old that has been in the league three years more experienced and more likely to successed than a comparably talented 22 year old rookie.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

rocketeer said:


> not in the top 10? please name your 10 that you would take over him.


Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Raymond Felton
Andruw Bynum
David Lee
Monte Ellis
Ike Diogu
Danny Granger
Charlie Villanueva 
Gerald Green


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Andruw Bynum
> Ike Diogu
> Danny Granger
> Charlie Villanueva
> Gerald Green


No.


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Not really.
> 
> Picking a Center with the #1 pick in the draft means you are going for a Franchise player.
> 
> Guess what? Andrew Bustgut is light-years away from being a franchise player.


Uh no... Picking a Center means you're going with the safe bet.

Bogut is a solid center. He's never going to be the weak link on any team. He's not outstanding and he's not terrible, he's just a solid guy and you know what to expect from him.


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

The title followed by the opening sentence of the thread was pretty funny :laugh:


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

There's a lot of revisionist history in this thread.Nearly everyone thought that Villanueva was taken way too high when the Raptors took him and everyone claimed he would be a bust.Based on this year he may be a bust.Nearly everyone on this board and elsewhere were convinced that you had to take either Marvin Williams or Bogut with the top pick.I don't know of anyone aside from me who openly stated that Chris Paul should be taken first and noone except HKF who may have said that Deron Williams should be taken first.I don't know of anyone who mentioned a single one of these other guys who are suddenly deserving of the number one overall pick.The reason is pretty simple.The 2005 draft was based upon what happened before that date and you guys are all inventing arguments(rather lame ones) based upon what has happened since.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

> Don't make up flat out lies to support your argument. Which reasonable bball fanbase was saying that Bogut is the next coming of Duncan, Webber, Pau Gasol, Yao or Shaq?
> 
> There might have been a miniscule scattering of extremely biased/delusional milwakee/bogut fans (and I can't say I've seen many of those on this board), but if you start a thread on this topic and it is targeted at that group then you should qualify it. Considering that for any 1 fan on this board who predicted that Bogut would be a good player in this league there were another 3 who without even seeing him play his first game of NBA bball already dismissed him comparing him to white stiffs in the league (Mihm), I would say he is easily living upto the expectations which the broader fanbase had of him.


Actually, this board was extremely high on Bogut and did dub him the next great center. The fervor was ridiculous. 

I don't consider Bogut a bust. He is a solid center that brings unique passing skills to the table. His block numbers are somewhat disturbing though. The biggest problem with the whole thing is that he went first in lieu of players such as Marvin Williams, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Raymond Felton. It isn't the fact that hindsight is 50/50, it is the fact that Bogut, in my eyes, simply didn't stack up to the likes of those players coming out of college. For some reason, the media latched onto him and made him out to be something he really is not. I do think he has quite a bit of room for improvement and he is still one of the best centers in the league. But you just can't ignore the fact that for a number one pick chosen ahead of players that are now unquestionably superb to him, he has indeed been a disappointment, even if the word bust is a little harsh in this case.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Wow, Jamal Iref, you are pretty ignorant. You don't watch Bucks games, you don't know what's going on in the organization. You don't realize we have a horrible HC who lets Mo Williams and Charlie Bell shoot 25 times a game, each.

12/9/3 for a 2nd year player is very respectable. 

Just because Bogut dissed Kobe doesn't mean you have to target him in one of your ignorant rants.

Keep judging players after 1.5 seasons, it makes you sound even more ignorant than you usually sound.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Brandname said:


> My impression from Bucks fans was that they simply don't give Bogut the ball enough.


Bingo. He is top 10 in the NBA in FG%, but only gets about 9 shots a game. Give him 15-20 FGA, and he would easily be averaging 15/10, and approaching Dwight Howard territory, with Howard being a better defender. I don't see you calling Dwight Howard a bust, Jamel Iref.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> Chris Paul
> Deron Williams
> Raymond Felton
> Andruw Bynum
> ...


LMFAO. I would agree with Paul and maybe Williams.

Otherwise, Bogut goes over the rest of those guys. LMFAO @ Lee, Diogu, Granger, and Green.


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## lw32 (May 24, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> The Bucks selected Bustgut as a #1 pick when they already had an all-star center on the team. They didn't try to trade down or whatever. A busted pick.


PC, Jamaal Magloire is perhaps the worst all-star selection ever. He's a pathetic excuse for a basketball player, an utter waste. To make reference to his all-star selection in defense is crazy. Bogut is lightyears ahead of Magloire even if he was somehow selected for the all-star game.

Memphis X, come on now. That list is a joke. Ike Diogu? Gerald Green? Sure Green is dripping with potential, but if you're to label Bogut a bust, surely these two are in the same category.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Bingo. He is top 10 in the NBA in FG%, but only gets about 9 shots a game. Give him 15-20 FGA, and he would easily be averaging 15/10, and approaching Dwight Howard territory, with Howard being a better defender. I don't see you calling Dwight Howard a bust, Jamel Iref.


How dare you mention those two in the same sentence. If Bogut was really that good, he would be seeing the ball more often. Honestly, I think the Bucks are stupid for not giving him the ball more, but the fact that they don't says something about Bogut. Dwight Howard commands the ball more off of mere athletic ability and desire in the post. It also doesn't help that Bogut is an overrated defender. Nene absolutely gobbled him up. 

Sure, Bogut is yet another sad case, along with Nene, Milicic, Diogu, Howard, Wilcox, and Biedrins of talented big post players that do not get enough touches. That said, he never had the game coming out of college to warrant these high expectations of him. It is sad that the media, fanbase, and league bought into the hype.


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## pr0wler (Jun 8, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Chris Paul
> Deron Williams
> Raymond Felton
> Andruw Bynum
> ...


That list by MemphisX is not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.

Chris Paul - nuff said
Deron Williams - nuff said 
Raymond Felton - Felton is having a good year with Charlotte and is only getting better. This ones debately. 
Andruw Bynum - He's fresh out of high school so of course his growth curve will be different. But to be honest, in all likely hood by next season he'll be as good or better than Andrew. 
David Lee - putting up 11/11 on 60% FG. It's not silly at all to say that he is better than Bogut. 
Monte Ellis - Monta Ellis is a stud. Nuff said. 
Ike Diogu - This guy simply isn't getting the minutes. Didn't get them in GS, and now that he's behind O'Neal in Indiana the same problem is re-occuring. Check out his points per 48 minutes and you'll be amazed. 
Danny Granger - Ok, I don't think this guy is better than Bogut. He doesn't belong on the list. 
Charlie Villanueva - This guy is a 20 PPG slowed down by injuries. Next year when he is full health he'll be a great scorer, and probably an all-star in the near future. 
Gerald Green - Debateable. He's shown some potential so far, but I'd probably say "No" if asked whether he was better than Bogut. 


And not even mentioned - Channing Frye. He's not doing as well in his sophmore season, but he was slowed down by injuries and has been getting better and better as the year has progressed. He probably already is better than Bogut, and when he finally gets back in the grove the gap will widen. 

Bogut may not necessarily be a bust, but he is definitely a big disappointment.


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## Rockstone (Jan 21, 2004)

pr0wler said:


> Bogut may not necessarily be a bust, but he is definitely a big disappointment.


Most definately.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I really think Terry Stotts is holding back his development... but even so, he's still young. I don't really understand the rush to call people busts... what's the point? You're going to know for sure down the line anyway... why jump the gun on a guy that's had varying opportunities to succeed? 

As a Bulls fan, I'd love to have Andrew Bogut at the 4 right now...


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Diable said:


> There's a lot of revisionist history in this thread.Nearly everyone thought that Villanueva was taken way too high when the Raptors took him and everyone claimed he would be a bust.Based on this year he may be a bust.Nearly everyone on this board and elsewhere were convinced that you had to take either Marvin Williams or Bogut with the top pick.I don't know of anyone aside from me who openly stated that Chris Paul should be taken first and noone except HKF who may have said that Deron Williams should be taken first.I don't know of anyone who mentioned a single one of these other guys who are suddenly deserving of the number one overall pick.The reason is pretty simple.The 2005 draft was based upon what happened before that date and you guys are all inventing arguments(rather lame ones) based upon what has happened since.


I said Paul should of been taken first and I can prove it.



DHarrisPhan said:


> Keep judging players after 1.5 seasons, it makes you sound even more ignorant than you usually sound.


Here comes the guy that said he would rather have Bogut than Kobe and now compares Bogut to Howard calling me ignorant. Great.

How come you never updated us on Bogut stats while Williams and Redd were out?


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

THat's ridiculous how Bogut only attempts nine shots a game. Jamel Ireif doesn't know this but Ruben Patterson was actually the focal point of the offense when Redd was out.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> THat's ridiculous how Bogut only attempts nine shots a game. Jamel Ireif doesn't know this but Ruben Patterson was actually the focal point of the offense when Redd was out.


Yeah I do. Patterson, Boykins then Bell. Bogut was the 4th option.

Should tell you something.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Lachlanwood32 said:


> PC, Jamaal Magloire is perhaps the worst all-star selection ever. He's a pathetic excuse for a basketball player, an utter waste. To make reference to his all-star selection in defense is crazy. Bogut is lightyears ahead of Magloire even if he was somehow selected for the all-star game.
> 
> Memphis X, come on now. That list is a joke. Ike Diogu? Gerald Green? Sure Green is dripping with potential, but if you're to label Bogut a bust, surely these two are in the same category.


Did you see Magloire in the all star game that year? He was the only thing the east had going for them.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Averaging roughly 12pts 9rebs 3ast. I'm sure every team in the league will take it.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> Averaging roughly 12pts 9rebs 3ast. I'm sure every team in the league will take it.


Of course they would. Every team would take a healthy Chris Mihm too.

But they wouldn't take it from a #1 pick.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

RSP83 said:


> two words: Terry Stotts


Bingo!


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> You should of read the threads prior to him playing his first game. People comparing him to Duncan, Webber, Pau Gasol or at least Brad Miller. People saying he was better than Yao. People calling him the best center to enter the league since Shaq. Those guys are either dissapointed or liars.


The comparisons to Duncan were largely based on offensive style, not production. Mike Bibby was compared to Kidd, Lamar Odom to Magic, Marcus Fizer to Barkley, and plenty others. Just because comparisons were made regarding style of play or made by a few people in the minority, doesn't mean it ever represented the general consensus. The general opinion regarding Bogut was never that he would be a great player. Bogut may be a disappointment thus far, but he's far from a bust.


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## SirCharles34 (Nov 16, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> He finallly is revealing that he is a bust.
> 
> He says it's time to stop hiding behind people that want to blame his coach, and despite playing with a bunch of talented players he can't get the Bucks to a respectful record in the lEast.
> 
> He will continue his Chris Mihm level of play regardless of who is out with injury.


priceless!

I gotta rep you for this post.


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## Shawne Williams Fan (Feb 17, 2007)

Bogut isn't that good folks. There's plenty of centers that could be just as productive as Bogut is if they played 34 mpg like he does.

Thus far, Andrew Bogut hasn't proven himself to be any better than....*shudder*.....Michael Olowakandi.

Decent center, but worthy of being a #1 overall pick? HA!


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Roddney mentioned Biedrins, so I just wanted to say that I think Biedrins is very good and he is improving rapidly. With all the injuries, it's hard to see the improvement from the Warriors. However next season I see this team being very dangerous and leading the NBA in scoring.


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## DurantDurant (Nov 12, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> You should of read the threads prior to him playing his first game. People comparing him to Duncan, Webber, Pau Gasol or at least Brad Miller. People saying he was better than Yao. People calling him the best center to enter the league since Shaq. Those guys are either dissapointed or liars.
> 
> Bogy is just a supporting player.


 I'm sorry, but anyone that said Andrew Bogut would be near a Webber, Duncan or Yao shouldn't be taken seriously at all.... I've been a Bucks fan my entire life, watched most of the games. When we picked him I said he would could be an 18/10 center who could make a couple AS games and be one of the better passers in the post. 

With Bogut he's always blaming somebody else, he said he would come back and be a different player this year and he has not. Redd, Mo and Villanueva are all too eager to shoot the ball, Bogut doesn't demand the ball and needs to be in position to score unlike out other players who can create. We don't give him the ball enough, thats true, but Bogut has to be more a leader...something he has not shown so far in Milwaukee. He has to play hard all the time, especially on defense, something he has not shown in Milwaukee.

I thought Bogut would be a tougher player when we picked him, but he has not been which is the biggest dissapointment of all for me as a Bucks fan.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

I have been away from my computer for a few days and i finally get home and i see this crazy *** post. I live in Milwaukee and I watch every Bucks game and as far as I know the Bucks get zero nationally televised games so unless all these Bogut haters have League pass and arent just basing it on 3-4 times they have actually seen him play I would respect the anti Bogut members of this site. While I never expected Bogut to be a Duncan type player i expected him to be solid. The main problem with Andrew Bogut is Terry Stotts. Stotts is the worst head coach in the NBA bar none. He runs a perimeter orientated offense to get as many shots to his guards hence mo williams and redd being the top two scorers on the team. Andrew Bogut spends 90% of his minutes standing beyond the free throw line setting screens for redd and mo. Stotts is only utilizing his passing ability. Bogut is not a very good jump shooter so having him 15 feet away from the basket absolutely destroys his scoring ability. The man is shooting 55% from the floor and if were to be more involved in the offense in the post he would easily be scoring about 17-18 points per game. I dont know if he will do it in Milwaukee because it is obvious he is dumbfounded by the role stotts has assigned him, but Bogut will make an all star team at some point in his career. Bogut was an easy pick for the Bucks at #1 because they had ford and mo at the point so taking paul or williams would have made no sense. 

also i have read about 8 times now that the bucks already had an all star center when they drafted him.....WRONG!!!!!!!! they traded for MAgloire about 2 weeks before the season started because Stotts didnt think Bogut was going to be ready to start at center right off the bat. It turned out that he happened to be good enought to start anyways so they started him at power foward, which brings me to my next point. He has only been a starting center in the NBA for half of one season, give the man a break, he is basically a "rookie" center right now.

The only thing most bucks fans seem to not like about him is he is a very poor defender who can get very foul happy. His best defense is his ability to flop for a charge which I heard on a broadcast recently that he has taken the second most chrages in the nba so far this season I dont know if that stat is true or not. He also seems to have a bad attitude at times but I feel that is because him and stotts are clearly not on the same page.

Lastly for those that compare him to Chris Mihm. Bogut is one of the few players to put up a 20 point 20 rebound game this season. Chris Mihm could only do that if he was controlling himself in a game of NBA live.

Andrew Bogut was the #1 pick of a very weak draft and is putting up good numbers at a position that he has only played for half of a season and his coach maybe mentally retarded, if he is still putting 12 and 9 two years from now and he is clearly surpassed by a third of that first round talent, by all means call him a bust.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Hoopla said:


> The comparisons to Duncan were largely based on offensive style, not production. Mike Bibby was compared to Kidd, Lamar Odom to Magic, Marcus Fizer to Barkley, and plenty others. Just because comparisons were made regarding style of play or made by a few people in the minority, doesn't mean it ever represented the general consensus. The general opinion regarding Bogut was never that he would be a great player. Bogut may be a disappointment thus far, but he's far from a bust.


I'm really not trying to jump into this conversation to defend Jemel, but that really was the board consensus. Bogut was supposed to be the next great center.


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## Rockstone (Jan 21, 2004)

roux2dope said:


> Andrew Bogut was the #1 pick of a very weak draft


This post is invalid.

Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Raymond Felton, Luther Head, Charlie Villanueva, David Lee, Ryan Gomes, Marvin Williams, Monta Ellis, Gerald Green, Andray Blatche, Ronny Turiaf, Linas Kleiza, Jason Maxiell, Johan Petro, Jarrett Jack, Nate Robinson, Hakim Warrick, Danny Granger, Nate Robinson, Rashad McCants, Sean May, Joey Graham, Andrew Bynum, Ike Diogu, Channing Frye & Martell Webster are too good to consider the 2005 draft a weak draft.

We still have a bit of undetermined talent to assess from this draft class. 

Mickael Gelabale, Mile Ilic & Ersan Ilyasova are still adjusting to the NBA. International players rarely have a very good impact in their first NBA season.

C.J. Miles, Louis Williams, Amir Johnson, and Yaroslav Korolev entered the league at a very young age and may take some time to develop into good players.

Von Wafer is currently tearing up the developmental league.

Salim Stoudamire, Travis Diener, Antoine Wright, Daniel Ewing, Lawrence Roberts, Wayne Simien & Francisco Garcia could stick around in the NBA if they're given a good opportunity.

We haven's seen anything from Fran Vasquez, Roko Ukic, Ian Mahinmi & Erazem Lorbek and we may not.

The bottom line is, more than half of these players are going to make major contributions to their teams' success over the course of their respective careers.

We have two of the current top 5 NBA point guards in this draft and you say it's weak? How is that possible?

Andrew Bogut is a bust considering the impact he was expected to have and the actual impact he's having. The fact that he was taken first overall in what could turn out to be the best NBA entry draft in history makes him an even bigger bust.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

roux2dope said:


> Andrew Bogut was the #1 pick of a very weak draft and is putting up good numbers at a position that he has only played for half of a season and his coach maybe mentally retarded, if he is still putting 12 and 9 two years from now and he is clearly surpassed by a third of that first round talent, by all means call him a bust.


It is way too early to call that draft weak, especially when you got, arguably, two of the top four point guards in the NBA coming out of there. Raymond Felton is a phenomal talent. Channing Frye doesn't get enough credit. Granger, if he were on a team that actually utilized him, would be putting up huge numbers. Gerald Green has a chance to become the next big wing player in the game. Jarrett Jack and Luther Head have developed into solid players. Monta Ellis will make an all star game one day. Ryan Gomes is nice, David Lee is way underrated. Warrick contributes and so does Sean May (at a pretty high level) when he is healthy. Antoine Wright is turning into a great defender. McCants can fill the bucket up when his head is straight. Diogu is one of the few post players in the league that manhandles opposing teams - he just has had problems with minutes and coaches. Villanueva, despite his play this year, is still really good. Bynum could be one of only a handful of legit centers in the game within the next two years. And if Marvin Williams ever begins to give a damn, he'll be an all-star. Although there are many "on the verge" players in that draft, it looks pretty impressive to me. That's why I was confounded at people's insistence that Bogut was the best player coming out of college.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Rockstone said:


> This post is invalid.
> 
> Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Raymond Felton, Luther Head, Charlie Villanueva, David Lee, Ryan Gomes, Marvin Williams, Monta Ellis, Gerald Green, Andray Blatche, Ronny Turiaf, Linas Kleiza, Jason Maxiell, Johan Petro, Jarrett Jack, Nate Robinson, Hakim Warrick, Danny Granger, Nate Robinson, Rashad McCants, Sean May, Joey Graham, Andrew Bynum, Ike Diogu, Channing Frye & Martell Webster are too good to consider the 2005 draft a weak draft.


Are you kidding me? Maybe 5 of those guys would constitute a good group of players. The other guys are just role players.

2005 was a weak class. Decent in terms of role players, but weak in terms of franchise players.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Rockstone said:


> This post is invalid.
> 
> Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Raymond Felton, Luther Head, Charlie Villanueva, David Lee, Ryan Gomes, Marvin Williams, Monta Ellis, Gerald Green, Andray Blatche, Ronny Turiaf, Linas Kleiza, Jason Maxiell, Johan Petro, Jarrett Jack, Nate Robinson, Hakim Warrick, Danny Granger, Nate Robinson, Rashad McCants, Sean May, Joey Graham, Andrew Bynum, Ike Diogu, Channing Frye & Martell Webster are too good to consider the 2005 draft a weak draft.
> 
> ...



Wow thats alot of average players, hell only 2 of them have truely impacted their teams. Guess we wont find out how strong this class is for at least a few years when all this guys max out their "potential" just dont forget that Bogut is 22 and will improve so while you seem patient enough to defend this draft class why don't you show just a small amount of patience for Bogut.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

roux2dope said:


> I have been away from my computer for a few days and i finally get home and i see this crazy *** post. I live in Milwaukee and I watch every Bucks game and as far as I know the Bucks get zero nationally televised games so unless all these Bogut haters have League pass and arent just basing it on 3-4 times they have actually seen him play I would respect the anti Bogut members of this site. While I never expected Bogut to be a Duncan type player i expected him to be solid. The main problem with Andrew Bogut is Terry Stotts. Stotts is the worst head coach in the NBA bar none. He runs a perimeter orientated offense to get as many shots to his guards hence mo williams and redd being the top two scorers on the team. Andrew Bogut spends 90% of his minutes standing beyond the free throw line setting screens for redd and mo. Stotts is only utilizing his passing ability. Bogut is not a very good jump shooter so having him 15 feet away from the basket absolutely destroys his scoring ability. The man is shooting 55% from the floor and if were to be more involved in the offense in the post he would easily be scoring about 17-18 points per game. I dont know if he will do it in Milwaukee because it is obvious he is dumbfounded by the role stotts has assigned him, but Bogut will make an all star team at some point in his career. Bogut was an easy pick for the Bucks at #1 because they had ford and mo at the point so taking paul or williams would have made no sense.
> 
> also i have read about 8 times now that the bucks already had an all star center when they drafted him.....WRONG!!!!!!!! they traded for MAgloire about 2 weeks before the season started because Stotts didnt think Bogut was going to be ready to start at center right off the bat. It turned out that he happened to be good enought to start anyways so they started him at power foward, which brings me to my next point. He has only been a starting center in the NBA for half of one season, give the man a break, he is basically a "rookie" center right now.
> 
> ...


This post is a great rebuttal to the Opening Post. Although Jamel Iref won't acknowledge it, this is the truth of the matter.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Rockstone said:


> Andrew Bogut is a bust considering the impact he was expected to have and the actual impact he's having. *The fact that he was taken first overall in what could turn out to be the best NBA entry draft in history* makes him an even bigger bust.


:worthy: Comedic Gold!


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## Rockstone (Jan 21, 2004)

roux2dope said:


> Wow thats alot of average players


You obviously haven't paid attention to the history of the NBA draft.

Over the past 10 years, how many NBA drafts have produced as many average and above average players as the 2005 draft?

You think that a draft is weak because it lacks a lot of franchise players even though it was one of the deepest in recent history?


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## Rockstone (Jan 21, 2004)

DHarris34Phan said:


> :worthy: Comedic Gold!


An entire nation with your sense of humour would be a comedian's paradise.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Rockstone said:


> An entire nation with your sense of humour would be a comedian's paradise.


Humour? You mean humor, right?


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> I'm really not trying to jump into this conversation to defend Jemel, but that really was the board consensus. Bogut was supposed to be the next great center.


i really don't think that is true. i remember the board consensus being that bogut would be a good player and make a couple of allstar teams. and so far that doesn't look too far off.

i was expecting 18 and 9-10 with good passing and shooting. his 2nd year numbers make it seem like that is still a good projection of where he will end up in the next year or two.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> Of course they would. Every team would take a healthy Chris Mihm too.


why do you keep bringing up chris mihm? bogut in his 2nd year is putting up numbers better than mihm has ever touched in his career.


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## lw32 (May 24, 2003)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Did you see Magloire in the all star game that year? He was the only thing the east had going for them.


That does not mean he was a worthy all-star. And it's irrelevant to my point of not drafting Bogut because of Magloire. He averaged 13 and 10 that season, and had one good all-star game. He was lucky to be selected. This was all before he landed himself in Milwaukee. If he'd kept it up I'm sure the Hornets would have held on to him.

Look at Magloire since, he's rubbish. Chris Dudley bad. Anyone making reference to Magloire as a reason not to draft another center needs to be banished, perhaps punished to watch Magloire in a Blazers uniform.

I know Magloire is Canadian. I like the guy, I feel sorry for his family due to his brothers death. However he is not a good basketball player. There is no way he'd discourage anyone from drafting Bogut, especially when taking into account his contract when traded. He's only valuable now because his contract is expiring.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Rockstone said:


> You obviously haven't paid attention to the history of the NBA draft.
> 
> Over the past 10 years, how many NBA drafts have produced as many average and above average players as the 2005 draft?
> 
> You think that a draft is weak because it lacks a lot of franchise players even though it was one of the deepest in recent history?


Newsflash! every NBA draft produces average and above average players, thats how the NBA remains in business. Drafts are based on franchise players. Nobody looks at the 2003 draft and says Lebron,Bosh,Carmelo,Wade and Brian Cook.... wow solid up and down.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> i really don't think that is true. i remember the board consensus being that bogut would be a good player and make a couple of allstar teams. and so far that doesn't look too far off.
> 
> i was expecting 18 and 9-10 with good passing and shooting. his 2nd year numbers make it seem like that is still a good projection of where he will end up in the next year or two.


Well, maybe we just need to dig up the old threads. However, most people thought he should go number one (the one notable exception I can remember was HKF, who was talking up Deron Williams) and that wouldn't make sense if people thought he would be a good player and make a couple of all star teams, especially with talent like Williams, Williams, Paul, and Felton. Either way, the guy simply isn't close to being a franchise player.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> why do you keep bringing up chris mihm? bogut in his 2nd year is putting up numbers better than mihm has ever touched in his career.


Because Mihm plays for the Lakers, and Jamel only knows Lakers.

This thread is ridiculous.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Because Mihm plays for the Lakers, and Jamel only knows Lakers.
> 
> This thread is ridiculous.



Have you been satisfied with Bogut so far?


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

The guy is in his second year in the league. You're calling him a bust already. Surprisingly, this thread is from a Lakers fan. Did you start calling Kobe a bust after his second year in the league?

Big men take longer to develop. All of you calling him a bust would more then love to have him on your team.


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## Rockstone (Jan 21, 2004)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Maybe 5 of those guys would constitute a good group of players. The other guys are just role players.
> 
> 2005 was a weak class. Decent in terms of role players, but weak in terms of franchise players.


Are any of these guys even 25 years old yet? 

Gilbert Arenas and Dwyane Wade are 25 and I'd say they're in their prime. At least wait for the young guys to learn how to play at a professional level in front of thousands with the attention of the media. Give the international prospects time to adjust their game to the NBA.

Maybe Bogut just needs some time as well since he's only 22 but he's been given a lot more burn than most of these other kids. Bogut will be nothing more than a solid role player which is not what was expected of him.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Have you been satisfied with Bogut so far?


I really dont know what he can do yet other than stand at the free throw lane and hand off to Mo Williams. Watch a Bucks game and you will see how underutilized Bogut is, its almost criminal.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Have you been satisfied with Bogut so far?


Yes, as one of 5 Bucks fans on this board, I will say that Bogut is not in the best position to succeed, based mainly on coaching. With Stotts as coach, our guards will get 15-20 shots a night, each. We are a guard oriented team, with focus on 3 pt. shooting, but we are not good at it. I thought having Michael Redd was the reason, but it continued even after he got hurt.

Look at Charlie Bell's stats after Michael Redd went down. He has averaged 13 shots a game since Redd went down. That is insane.

Again, if Bogut got 10-15 shots a game, he would easily be averaging 15 points, 10 rebounds and 3 assists a game, which would put him in Dwight Howard territory offensivley. Bogut still needs to work on D, though.


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## Rockstone (Jan 21, 2004)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Humour? You mean humor, right?


Nope. I meant humour. I'm Canadian eh!


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

roux2dope said:


> I really dont know what he can do yet other than stand at the free throw lane and hand off to Mo Williams. Watch a Bucks game and you will see how underutilized Bogut is, its almost criminal.



Exactly. The Bucks offense consists of Bogut at the top of the key and either Mo Williams, Charlie Bell or Redd curling off a screen and getting a jumpshot. Imagine when Bobby Simmons comes back, Bogut will never see the ball again.

They're trying to make Bogut into a high post center when that's not his game. He's a traditional post player and would compliment Redd very well if they had a decent coach who knew what he was doing.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Rockstone said:


> Nope. I meant humour. I'm Canadian eh!


LOL, just messing with ya. I wanna include the 'our' more in my vocabulary.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

roux2dope said:


> I really dont know what he can do yet other than stand at the free throw lane and hand off to Mo Williams. Watch a Bucks game and you will see how underutilized Bogut is, its almost criminal.


I've seen games and I completely agree that he is underutilized. However, I'm not sure how much he would succeed if he got the ball more. Besides, his defense is the biggest knock on him. He's so soft.


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## Rockstone (Jan 21, 2004)

roux2dope said:


> Newsflash! every NBA draft produces average and above average players


I asked you how many recent NBA drafts have produced as much average and above average players as the 2005 draft and this is the best response you can come up with? 

You are clearly just being ignorant. Please take the time to think about what you're saying if you want to challenge me.

Every draft also produces below average players. In 2005, there weren't many. Many of the players taken in previous drafts aren't in the NBA anymore, especially if they were taken in the 2nd round. Most of the players selected in 2005 have a realistic chance to be in the NBA for years.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> I've seen games and I completely agree that he is underutilized. However, I'm not sure how much he would succeed if he got the ball more. Besides, his defense is the biggest knock on him. He's so soft.


I agree about his defense, if you want answer to how he would do if he got more touches look at his game by game when he gets 10 or more touches than tell me how you think he would do.

Ill help with some quick math he took 10+ shots in 24 games this year which is less than half of the games he has played and in those games his averaging 15.8 points per game. You see about 16 and 9 in games in which he gets double digit touches....is he still a bust?
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/andrew_bogut/game_by_game_stats.html


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

roux2dope said:


> I agree about his defense, if you want answer to how he would do if he got more touches look at his game by game when he gets 10 or more touches than tell me how you think he would do.
> 
> http://www.nba.com/playerfile/andrew_bogut/game_by_game_stats.html


Thats 17.2 ppg when he gets more than 10 touches. Bust I tell ya!


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## Rockstone (Jan 21, 2004)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Thats 17.2 ppg when he gets more than 10 touches. Bust I tell ya!


Are you suggesting that this thread should be changed to "Terry Stotts has come out of the closet as well"?

It seems like Bogut's supporters believe that Bogut's being misused.

I wasn't high on Terry Stotts and I'm still not sure why they got rid of Terry Porter.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Thats 17.2 ppg when he gets more than 10 touches. Bust I tell ya!


hmm, my math might be off then. i had 15.8. Either way it proves my "if they gave him more shots theory"


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

roux2dope said:


> hmm, my math might be off then. i had 15.8. Either way it proves my "if they gave him more shots theory"


Nope, your are right. 15.8 ppg, and I calculated its on FG% of 55. It was over 24 games, so its not a very small sample size, either. I also found out that in those 24 games, he averaged 10.4 rebounds a game.

*So, if he got over 10 touches a game, we could assume he'd get about 16 ppg and 10 rebounds a game. *I won't bother looking at his assists, because I know he'd be good for about 3 assists a game regardless of his touches.

Point is, get him more involved, and the more productive he becomes. Funny how that works.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Nope, your are right. 15.8 ppg, and I calculated its on FG% of 55. It was over 24 games, so its not a very small sample size, either. I also found out that in those 24 games, he averaged 10.4 rebounds a game.
> 
> *So, if he got over 10 touches a game, we could assume he'd get about 16 ppg and 10 rebounds a game. *I won't bother looking at his assists, because I know he'd be good for about 3 assists a game regardless of his touches.
> 
> Point is, get him more involved, and the more productive he becomes. Funny how that works.


Isn't it nice when math steps up and knocks one out of the park?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

roux2dope said:


> Isn't it nice when math steps up and knocks one out of the park?


Don't try and use facts against Jamal Iref.


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## E-MO_416 (Oct 17, 2006)

I think the reason why some people have labeled Bogut as a "bust" is because coming out of college people thought he would be an impact player because of the fact that his game was very developed and sound in college, he wasn't raw. Give the guy a chance he is still young, btw fire terry stotts. How he has kept his job is beyond me. 

BTW I wouldn't call the 05 draft class weak when it has 3 point guards in the top 10 in assits. It also has players who have tons of potential(Bynum,M.Williams,Ellis, etc...)


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

DurantDurant said:


> I'm sorry, but anyone that said Andrew Bogut would be near a Webber, Duncan or Yao shouldn't be taken seriously at all.... I've been a Bucks fan my entire life, watched most of the games. When we picked him I said he would could be an 18/10 center who could make a couple AS games and be one of the better passers in the post.
> 
> With Bogut he's always blaming somebody else, he said he would come back and be a different player this year and he has not. Redd, Mo and Villanueva are all too eager to shoot the ball, Bogut doesn't demand the ball and needs to be in position to score unlike out other players who can create. We don't give him the ball enough, thats true, but Bogut has to be more a leader...something he has not shown so far in Milwaukee. He has to play hard all the time, especially on defense, something he has not shown in Milwaukee.
> 
> I thought Bogut would be a tougher player when we picked him, but he has not been which is the biggest dissapointment of all for me as a Bucks fan.


Good post Bucks fan.



> I have been away from my computer for a few days and i finally get home and i see this crazy *** post. I live in Milwaukee and I watch every Bucks game and as far as I know the Bucks get zero nationally televised games so unless all these Bogut haters have League pass and arent just basing it on 3-4 times they have actually seen him play I would respect the anti Bogut members of this site. While I never expected Bogut to be a Duncan type player i expected him to be solid. The main problem with Andrew Bogut is Terry Stotts. Stotts is the worst head coach in the NBA bar none. He runs a perimeter orientated offense to get as many shots to his guards hence mo williams and redd being the top two scorers on the team. Andrew Bogut spends 90% of his minutes standing beyond the free throw line setting screens for redd and mo. Stotts is only utilizing his passing ability. Bogut is not a very good jump shooter so having him 15 feet away from the basket absolutely destroys his scoring ability. The man is shooting 55% from the floor and if were to be more involved in the offense in the post he would easily be scoring about 17-18 points per game. I dont know if he will do it in Milwaukee because it is obvious he is dumbfounded by the role stotts has assigned him, but Bogut will make an all star team at some point in his career. Bogut was an easy pick for the Bucks at #1 because they had ford and mo at the point so taking paul or williams would have made no sense.


I have NBA league pass for the past 9 years, so too bad on that.

And Bogut is out of the closet, no more blaming Stotts. You can't blame Stotts when Harris fires him after this year and Bogut continues to underachieve. 



> Lastly for those that compare him to Chris Mihm. Bogut is one of the few players to put up a 20 point 20 rebound game this season. Chris Mihm could only do that if he was controlling himself in a game of NBA live.


Good counter. Mihm has never cost his team a #1 overall pick.

Pervis Ellsion was drafted #1 overall and put up a 20-10 season. Joe Smith once had a 18-8 season.



> Andrew Bogut was the #1 pick of a very weak draft and is putting up good numbers at a position that he has only played for half of a season and his coach maybe mentally retarded, if he is still putting 12 and 9 two years from now and he is clearly surpassed by a third of that first round talent, by all means call him a bust.


I will, will you still be posting here two years from now?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Don't try and use facts against Jamal Iref.


Or with you, since you can't even spell.

Mo Williams>Jamer Nelson
Michael Redd>Hideo Turkeyglue
Villaneuva>Tony Battie

All facts.

Oh and Bogy for some reason isn't trusted for 10 touches a game. Why did Harris trade for Boykins?

If Harris fired Stotts and replaced him with DHarrisPhan Bucks win 10 games a year.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> Mo Williams>Jamer Nelson
> Michael Redd>Hideo Turkeyglue
> Villaneuva>Tony Battie
> 
> All facts.


Is this supposed to compare the Bucks with the Magic? Well, for one, the Magic get Dwight Howard more than 10 FGAs consistently. Another thing is, add up the number of games Williams, Redd, and Villanueva have missed. Thanks in advance.



> Oh and Bogy for some reason isn't trusted for 10 touches a game. Why did Harris trade for Boykins?


Because Williams and Redd were both out, and Blake didn't want to be here. We took the best trade for Blake available. The injuries haven't changed the coaches gameplan, though.



> If Harris fired Stotts and replaced him with DHarrisPhan Bucks win 10 games a year.


Again, if you knew anything about the Bucks, you would know that Stotts isn't even Larry Harris' guy. He is Herb Kohl's guy. Stotts will stay as long as Kohl wants him too.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> Good post Bucks fan.
> 
> *Hey there arent very many on this site so deal with it*
> 
> ...


*I hope to be, this site needs some common sense*


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> I have NBA league pass for the past 9 years, so too bad on that.
> 
> And Bogut is out of the closet, no more blaming Stotts. You can't blame Stotts when Harris fires him after this year and Bogut continues to underachieve.


LOL. So 12/9/3, and 16/10/3.5 (with >10 FG attempts), is underachieving for a 22 year old Center?

And Stotts will be here as long as Kohl decides. Harris doesn't have the discretion to fire him.

And how exactly is he underacheiving???? When he gets the ball, he puts up great offensive numbers.

If he was averaging 10/5, then you'd have some reason to make this thread. But as of now, it seems like you have some sort of personal vendetta against Andrew Bogut.





> Good counter. Mihm has never cost his team a #1 overall pick.
> 
> Pervis Ellsion was drafted #1 overall and put up a 20-10 season. Joe Smith once had a 18-8 season.


And Pervis Ellison and Joe Smith are FAR better than your Chris Mihm comparison. 

My career Bogut expectation was 18/10/5, and I would be happy with him. He is well on his way to having a very solid, productive career. He's not Shaq or Hakeem, but he will be a top 3 center in the East for the next 10 years. Whether or not he will be the focal point on a great team remains to be seen.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

roux2dope said:


> *Hey there arent very many on this site so deal with it*


I was saying good post to DurantDurant. You know, the one where he said Bogut needs to put up or shut up. Go back and read it, it's like post #54.




DHarrisPhan34 said:


> LOL. So 12/9/3 is underachieving for a 22 year old Center?


For a #1 pick yes. Look Bogut is a good player, so is Chris Mihm. He is a bust for a #1 and not taking the Bucks anywhere. Let's look at all the post players drafted #1 overall since 84 and their numbers at age 22.

1983- Sampson 21/11/2/2
1984- Olajuwon 20/12/1/3
1985- Ewing (did not play at 22, but at 23 years old) 20/9/2/2
1988- Daugherty 20/9/5/1
1990- Robinson (did not play until he was 24) 24/12/2/4
1990- Ellison 8/6/2/2
1991- Coleman 18/10/2/1
1992- LJ 19/11/4/1
1995- Shaq 29/11/3/2
1996- Webber 26/8/5/1
1997- Joe Smith 17/7/1/1
1999- Duncan 22/11/2/3
1999- Olowokandi 9/8/1/1
2002- Brand 18/12/2/2
2001- Martin 12/7/2/2
2005- Brown 7/5/1
2003- Ming 14/8/2/2
2007- Dwight Howard <i>still not even 22, but look at what he is doing</i>


With exception of Danny Manning (and it can be argued that he was a post), Glen Robinson, Allen Iverson, LeBron and Bargani every player taken since 1983 has been a post player. And all of them expect a couple outperformed Bogut drastically at the same age. Most of them didn't have NBA experience under their belts either. So his age isn't a good excuse. 



> And Stotts will be here as long as Kohl decides. Harris doesn't have the discretion to fire him.


He'll be gone after this year unless the Bucks catch fire, quote me on that.



> And how exactly is he underacheiving???? When he gets the ball, he puts up great offensive numbers.


The team has talent and sucks, Bogut is putting up underwhelming numbers and generally doesn't make a big impact you expect from a franchise, or even all-star, caliber player. Again, stop with the "not getting the ball" thing. Stotts knows more about coaching than both of us and Bogy not getting the ball is mostly Bogy's fault.



> If he was averaging 10/5, then you'd have some reason to make this thread. But as of now, it seems like you have some sort of personal vendetta against Andrew Bogut.


You're a flat out liar if you thought Bogy would only be putting up 12/9 in year 2. You said you would take him to start a team over Kobe.


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## MoscowHeel (Dec 25, 2006)

lol @ anybody who has the gall to call a 22 year old a bust. Haven't you dorks learned anything?


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

MoscowHeel said:


> lol @ anybody who has the gall to call a 22 year old a bust. Haven't you dorks learned anything?


From?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Jamal, if you want me to argue you, I will, but it will be hard to change your opinion based on personal vendetta. An unbiased view of Andrew Bogut's situation in Milwaukee would clearly agree with me, imo.

I also feel the 5 Bucks fans on this site are of a higher opinion when it comes to the Bucks than a Lakers fan.

Without enough knowledge of the Bucks organiztion, and watching the games on a regular basis, it's impossible to make such an outrageous claim.

I know you don't like Bogut, mainly because he hated on Kobe, but to make such an uninformed, amateur post when you are in a position of power around here is pretty weak.

I could make up a post about most players I don't like, but I am not going to resort to making things up.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

I wonder if Jamel started calling Kobe a bust after his second season in the league.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> I wonder if Jamel started calling Kobe a bust after his second season in the league.


Oh, when he was a all-star, averaged 18 points a game with Shaq out, and was key bench player as a 19 year old on a 60 win team? Drafted #13?

That is a bust?

The bulls will be thrilled if Thabo Shefolsha does that next year.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Jamal, if you want me to argue you, I will, but it will be hard to change your opinion based on personal vendetta. An unbiased view of Andrew Bogut's situation in Milwaukee would clearly agree with me, imo.


No, but then again I am using facts. Bogut is one of the lowest producing #1 picks in the past twenty years. Even BOGUT HIMSELF is dissapointed and frustrated with his play.



> I also feel the 5 Bucks fans on this site are of a higher opinion when it comes to the Bucks than a Lakers fan.


Or they are partial? I know Laker fans that claim Kobe had nothing to do with Shaq leaving LA and feel Kobe is playing elite defense right now.



> Without enough knowledge of the Bucks organiztion, and watching the games on a regular basis, it's impossible to make such an outrageous claim.


Bucks have good players and the Bucks suck. Bogut didn't step up when injuries happened. Hell Harris felt he had to trade for another scorer since he couldn't count on Bogy.



> I know you don't like Bogut, mainly because he hated on Kobe, but to make such an uninformed, amateur post when you are in a position of power around here is pretty weak.


You can't back up any of your statements and have gotten personal.


> I could make up a post about most players I don't like, but I am not going to resort to making things up.


What did I make up?

Fact 1- Bucks are underachievers
Fact 2- Bogut has done nothing to improve the franchise
Fact 3- Bogut didn't step up when 4 starters were out with injuries
Fact 4- Bogut has produced some of the weakest numbers for a #1 pick in NBA history
Fact 5- There are several players drafted after Bogy that have been better

Now you go ahead and start a post about players you don't like. Like the time you said you would take Bogut over Kobe?


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Oh, when he was a all-star, averaged 17 points a game with Shaq out, and was key bench player as a 19 year old on a 60 win team? Drafted #13?
> 
> That is a bust?
> 
> The bulls will be thrilled if Thabo Shefolsha does that next year.



Only 17pts. with Shaq out, didn't even start. Airballing threes in the playoffs Psssshhhh..

Andrew Bogut is only putting up 12 pts, and had monster games with Redd out. 

Who cares where he was drafted? MJ was the greatest of all time but was he drafted first overrall? You have a stiff on your team drafted first overrall (Kwame) and would you call him a bust? DO you see how your argument is totally flawed and only fueled with your hate for Andrew Bogut?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> Only 17pts. with Shaq out, didn't even start. Airballing threes in the playoffs Psssshhhh..


Airballs was as a rookie. He had two all-stars starting ahead of him in the backcourt. Is there literally one second year guard that would start on the Nets? Familuarize yourself with history please.

Second year 19 year old all-stars are never, ever busts.



> Who cares where he was drafted?


When you call someone a bust you are referring to draft position.



> You have a stiff on your team drafted first overrall (Kwame) and would you call him a bust? DO you see how your argument is totally flawed and only fueled with your hate for Andrew Bogut?


LOL, you think I'm a Kwame fan? Kwame is a huge loser and could only dream to be even as good as Bogut.

Please point out how my arguement is flawed. So far you clearly have demonstrated that you don't remember the 1997-98 season and that Kwame Brown sucks.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

> Airballs was as a rookie. He had two all-stars starting ahead of him in the backcourt. Is there literally one second year guard that would start on the Nets? Familuarize yourself with history please.


He had two All Atars who were ahead of him who attempted more shots and were involved in the offsne. Do you realize that Bogut is the fourth or fifth option on that Bucks team and that's whithout Simmons and CV?



> Second year 19 year old all-stars are never, ever busts.


Same thing they said about Bobo Anderson.





> When you call someone a bust you are referring to draft position.


Not really. You are comparing them to players drafted after them. Second round draftees have outplayed first rounders, would you consider the first rounders busts?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> He had two All Atars who were ahead of him who attempted more shots and were involved in the offsne. Do you realize that Bogut is the fourth or fifth option on that Bucks team and that's whithout Simmons and CV?


The Lakers were a 60 win team. You have to be a damn good player at age 19 to be a first option on a 60 win team. The Bucks are nowhere near a 60 win team so you are wasting everyone's time with this comparison.



> Same thing they said about Bobo Anderson.


Who?


> Not really. You are comparing them to players drafted after them. Second round draftees have outplayed first rounders, would you consider the first rounders busts?


If the first rounders are playing to the relative expectations of their draft position, then no. Bogut isn't playing like a #1 pick and there are numerous players picked after him that are or will be better. Plus he isn't playing up to his own personal expectations or the expectations DHarrisPhan had for him. All the ingredients needed to label him a bust.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

I still remember those Duncan comparisons. I thought they were a bit far fetch back then but stylistically a college Bogut and Duncan did share some similarities. I think some people also only looked at his college stats and determined Bogut's production potential solely based on that and the only thing I can say about that is college stats are very deceptive. Personally, as a draft prospect, Bogut most reminded me of Divac and I think that is what I posted in the draft forums two years ago. 

I also wouldn't say Bogut is a bust as a player but I can see how he could be labeled a bust as a #1 pick. His production is indeed disappointing for a #1 pick but most pro scouts or draft experts/posters never thought Bogut's ceiling was that high anyways. He was more of a "safe" pick like Morrison this year than a pick based on potential. The word potential was mainly reserved for prospects like Marvin Williams and Chris Paul. Bogut has become what most experts expected and that is a reliable center who rebounds gives a solid post presence and is arguably the best or one of the best passing centers in the game today. Nobody in their right mind would ever predict Bogut to be Shaq's heir or that he would be the best center in the league one day. Maybe he will be but at this rate such predictions are best reserved for Yao (now), Dwight Howard, and of course Oden.

Give the guy some time before officially labeling him as a bust people. He is still young and centers take time develop and I agree that Stott's system has resulted in Bogut's disappointing production. But you have to wonder is it because of Stott or Bogut not stepping up to the plate? I think both might have to share some blame but I would definitely like to see how Bogut develops under another coach.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> What did I make up?
> 
> Fact 1- Bucks are underachievers
> Fact 2- Bogut has done nothing to improve the franchise
> ...


Your post answers itself. 

Fact 1 - Bucks had four starters out with injuries
Fact 2 - Bogut improves the franchise by giving them a solid starting center for the next ten years. 
Fact 3 - Bogut *did* step up. You're just too blinded by your personal vendetta that you haven't noticed it even if it happened weeks ago. 
Fact 4 - This is true, but as a basketball player shouldn't you pass judgment until you've seen enough of the guy? He's a smart guy on offense and makes it flow better, stats can't back that up. 
Fact 5 - This is fact.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> Fact 1- Bucks are underachievers


They are having a dissapointing season, but when having 4 outta 5 starters injured, including one who would have been an All Star, underacheiving results.



> Fact 2- Bogut has done nothing to improve the franchise


Can't agree with you here. We made it to the playoffs last year, and were well on our way before Redd and Mo got hurt. Bogut was balling during our winning streak, and as a team we looked like we could beat anyone in the East. He has also played in every game as a Buck. Considering how much basketball he has played in the last few years that is very impressive>



> Fact 3- Bogut didn't step up when 4 starters were out with injuries


He averaged 15/11/3 the first 7 games Redd was out. It seemed like he was getting more involved, but then Stotts went back to his "chuck" offense. 

The game after Redd went down, Mo Williams went down. We went 1-6 in those games, but with Redd, Williams, and Villanueva went out, I didn't expect many victorys. The backups to those guys just are either too young or not going to cut it in the NBA.




> Fact 4- Bogut has produced some of the weakest numbers for a #1 pick in NBA history


Yep. His numbers aren't as impressive as past #1 picks, but when we picked him we knew we were getting a player capable of putting up 18/10/4, and being a top 3 Center in the East for years to come. In a fairly weak draft, getting a top 3 big is a very good pick.



> Fact 5- There are several players drafted after Bogy that have been better


LOL. So because players like Paul and Deron Williams, who the Bucks didn't need, are playing slightly better than Bogut means Bogut is a bust?

In 2 years, the top 5 from this draft class will be Paul, Williams, Bogut, Ellis, and Lee. Bynum and Villanueva could enter the discussion aswell.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> No, but then again I am using facts. Bogut is one of the lowest producing #1 picks in the past twenty years. Even BOGUT HIMSELF is dissapointed and frustrated with his play.


He is more dissapointed in his role on the team. Stotts has made him play in the high post, where he sets screens for Mo and Charlie Bell to take jumpers.

If you want me to explain Stotts's coaching philosophy, I will, but for now, I will just tell you that it is 80% perimeter oriented. Instead of working inside-out, we work outside-in.

This is the same coach that was at his best as an assistant during the Big 3 years.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

what was that old stat about stromile swift? in games where he got at least 30 minutes, he averaged 18/9 or something.

here we go, i found it


Ming_7_6 said:


> If he gets 35 minutes he projects to a 17 point 8 rebound 3 block player................how exactly does this make him garbage?
> 
> See to me if the guy gets 17/8/3 at 35 minutes per game he's a damn good player.
> 
> He's also actually averaged 18/10/3 in his career in games that he played 30 minuts or more.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> Bucks have good players and the Bucks suck. Bogut didn't step up when injuries happened. Hell Harris felt he had to trade for another scorer since he couldn't count on Bogy.


We had good players when we are healthy. When we were almost 100%, we were .500 when Redd went down.

When Redd, Williams, Villanueva, and Simmons (who was already out) went down, our team sucked.

Steve Blake didn't want to be here, which is why Harris traded for that other scorer.

David Noel and Ersan aren't ready to log productive minutes in the league. 

Charlie Bell is a solid 3rd guard off the bench, but if he is your #1 guard, you are in trouble. Brian Skinner is a decent big off the bench, but if you need him to be productive, you aren't going to be very victorious.

Ruben Patterson was very good when the injuries happened, though.

So, my point is that when 4/5 of the lineup went down, it was easy to defend Bogut, considering who was on the court with him, even though he still put up good numbers after Redd went down.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

roux2dope said:


> I agree about his defense, if you want answer to how he would do if he got more touches look at his game by game when he gets 10 or more touches than tell me how you think he would do.
> 
> Ill help with some quick math he took 10+ shots in 24 games this year which is less than half of the games he has played and in those games his averaging 15.8 points per game. You see about 16 and 9 in games in which he gets double digit touches....is he still a bust?
> http://www.nba.com/playerfile/andrew_bogut/game_by_game_stats.html


I've never said he is a bust - as a player. But as a number one pick? Yes.


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## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

Two words. Jermaine. O'neal.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> I've never said he is a bust - as a player. But as a number one pick? Yes.


Maybe, I knew he wasn't the best basketball player in that draft, most considered Paul to be the most talented player. Bogut filled a need for a team that had won 35 games the year before and freakly won the lottery. The starting 5 they had going into that draft was Ford,Redd,Simmons, Joe Smith and Dan Gadzuric. With that being the projected starters prior to the draft any sane person would have selected the clear cut best center of that draft class which the bucks did, it remains to be seen if Bynum will be better but no one would have taken Bynum over Bogut and that includes the Jamels Lakers. Taking Chris Paul or Deron Williams with the first pick would have Atlanta Hawk like in drafting players that play positions that aren't considered weak spots on your team, and they wouldn't have taken Marvin Williams because they were a year removed from making the playoffs and a project player was something that that team didn't need. I am a realistic Bucks fan and I know Bogut is not even close to the impact player that Duncan, Shaq, James (just to name a few) were, but I do at least understand that his numbers look poor in comparison because he went to a team that actually had some scoring talent already on the roster. Most #1's go to very poor teams that need someone to come in and save the day. The Bucks needed Bogut to come in and just be a legitimate presence on the floor and compliment Redd and Mo Williams and Bobby Simmons who when signed was the most improved player in the NBA. I think Bogut could be an all star in this league someday if he is in the right situation, Stotts offense is setup to feature guard play and outside shooting. Boguts real test will be when Stotts is fired and a new coach and a new system are put in play. With that all that said had I known that one year after drafting Bogut that they would trade Ford for Villanueva, Chris Paul would have looked real good in a Bucks uniform. A starting 5 of Paul,Williams(who is a shooting guard playing point), Redd, Villanueva, and whoever at center would have been a terrific team. For everyone that hates Bogut and feels that he isn't living up his #1 billing, there wasn't a player in that draft who to this point is the impact player that Shaq,Duncan,Iverson,Lebron were. Those guys are freaks that single handedly turn teams around. Chris Paul is the closest one to it but even his rookie season wasnt as good many past #1's.
So i decided to look it up just to see how much better Paul is than Bogut statistically:


Bogut
PPG 11.9 
RPG	8.8
APG	3.0
SPG	.75
BPG	.55
FG%	.546
FT%	.582
3P%	.333
MPG	33.6
Paul
PPG 17.6
RPG	4.1
APG	8.6
SPG	1.86
BPG	.03
FG%	.444
FT%	.799
3P%	.328
MPG	36.7

It obvious that Paul would be the better assist man while Bogut would be the better rebounder, so is this bust talk really about 5 points per game? Especially when Bogut is on a team with one of the leagues top 10 scorers in Redd and a shot first point guard averaging 17 a night with a coach that doesnt seem to want to get him shots, i previously posted that Bogut has only been able to get 10+ shots a game 24 times this year, that is based on the system that Stotts runs, and despite Bogut shooting almost 55% from the floor this year you would think he would average at least 10 shots per game, if he did he would score 16 a night.This is not the same arguement to be put towards somone who plays 10 minutes a night and you triple his numbers to show what he would do if he played 30. Bogut is playing almost 34 minutes a night and just simply isnt fed the ball. If he were shooting under 40% from the floor and just simply didnt deserve touches that would be one thing, but he has showed that when given the oppurtunity he is going to make his shots more often than he misses. Paul is the best player on the Hornets and has the ball in his hands 75% of the time he is on offense. Bogut can do nothing but try to get position and hope Stotts calls his number, or that Mo Williams or Boykins decide to pass the ball(which doesnt happen often)
I am by no means trying to slam Chris Paul, it is clear that he and deron williams were the 2 best players in that draft, I am just trying to put in perspective the position that Bogut is in compared to the other top players from that class. Bogut may be a bust based on his numbers but every once in awhile there may be a valid reason for that and I feel this is one case that i feel is proven. I don't know what the future holds, this may be the case for him for the rest of his career and if thats the case I have no problems eating some of my words and admiting i was wrong, but he is only 22 and is being coached by lame duck Terry Stotts, lets give him a chance before declaring him a bust a year and half into his career.
Lastly, this is the longest post i have ever made on this site and alot of it was rambled in the heat of the moment so pardon my run on sentances, lack of grammer and terrible spelling.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

gian said:


> Fact 2 - Bogut improves the franchise by giving them a solid starting center for the next ten years.


Getting sick of seeing this. Is Bogut "solid"? yes. You don't draft solid #1.

Look, when I say that Bogut doesn't improve the franchise I mean he isn't good enough to make an impact by himself. If the Bucks had Magloire or even *gasp* Chris Mihm they would be in the same situation they are now. 500 team with everyone healthy, god awful when Redd and Williams are out. Guys like LeBron, Yao, the Rockets and Cavs literally threw away their entire rosters to get players around them they felt would help those players. Redd is still the franchise player for the Bucks and it's not even close. I like Michael, but if he is your best player you probably will never be higher than a 5th seed.

Look, you have to be a complete idiot to have the #1 pick in the draft and not get someone that doesn't make some type of contribution. Even Kwame Brown helps the Lakers. However if you think any "solid" player drafted #1 isn't a bust then we have maybe 3 #1 picks that were busts in NBA history.




DHarris34Phan said:


> He averaged 15/11/3 the first 7 games Redd was out. It seemed like he was getting more involved, but then Stotts went back to his "chuck" offense.
> 
> The game after Redd went down, Mo Williams went down. We went 1-6 in those games, but with Redd, Williams, and Villanueva went out, I didn't expect many victorys. The backups to those guys just are either too young or not going to cut it in the NBA.


This is exactly what I am talking about. So Stotts woke up one morning after his 30 ppg scorer went down and decided to give Bogy the ball. Then for some odd reason after Bogy played well he changed his mind and told Bell and Boykins to chuck up shots? Are you serious?

How about holding Bogy accountable? He stepped up and was agressive and then lost focus after 7 games. Isn't that more logical?


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> Getting sick of seeing this. Is Bogut "solid"? yes. You don't draft solid #1.
> 
> Look, when I say that Bogut doesn't improve the franchise I mean he isn't good enough to make an impact by himself. Guys like LeBron, Yao, the Rockets and Cavs literally threw away their entire rosters to get players around them they felt would help those players. Redd is still the franchise player for the Bucks and it's not even close. I like Michael, but if he is your best player you probably will never be higher than a 5th seed.
> 
> ...


I really feel that Bogut is not a bust to this point, I think a year and a half and still in his first season as a starting center in the NBA there is just not enough proof to call him a bust. Yes, he was not an impact player in the mold of Duncan, but there was no Tim Duncan available in this draft, Bogut was the best Center available at the the time. The Bucks seem to be cursed when they get the #1, Glenn Robinson in 94' should have taken Kidd, and they took Kent Benson #1 back in 77. Glenn Robinson was a career 20 ppg scorer that did almost nothing else but shoot, he played no D and didn't rebound well, couldn't dribble and didn't know how to pass, but he was solid an filled a nessacary role for that team, they didn't need a point so they passed on Kidd, very similar to what they did with Bogut over Paul, and while not a terrific #1 I don't think too many people consider BigDog to be a bust just because he was drafted ahead of Kidd and Grant Hill.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

also if the bucks had drafted Paul over Bogut he would have split time with Ford and probably would not have won rookie of the year, Bogut probably would have gone 2nd to atlanta and would have been their immediate #2 behind Johnson and he may have been the lock rookie of the year, its all a bunch of what ifs, but when you look at it that way its not that crazy.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm glad I never bought into the hype. I look a lot smarter for that (so far).


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

roux2dope said:


> Newsflash! every NBA draft produces average and above average players, thats how the NBA remains in business. Drafts are based on franchise players. Nobody looks at the 2003 draft and says Lebron,Bosh,Carmelo,Wade and Brian Cook.... wow solid up and down.


Most of us hardcore types consider 2001 to be one of the deepest drafts this decade (2003 & 2005 being the others) despite the fact that its best player was selected in the 2nd round, and the fact that Gil was probably the only franchise player to come out of the draft. But while it might have been short in five star talent, it more three and four star talent than the other recent drafts. And there were a large number of NBA rotation players selected in the second round (as in they're still here 5 years later). Now, I will admit that the second round rotation players are a little out of whack in 2001 & 2003 because the league foolishly allowed the Boston Celtics multiple first round picks in both drafts and Dr. StrAingelove & the Pilsbury Draftboy ****ed the pony in the first rounds of those drafts, but still...


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> This is exactly what I am talking about. So Stotts woke up one morning after his 30 ppg scorer went down and decided to give Bogy the ball. Then for some odd reason after Bogy played well he changed his mind and told Bell and Boykins to chuck up shots? Are you serious?
> 
> How about holding Bogy accountable? He stepped up and was agressive and then lost focus after 7 games. Isn't that more logical?


This is idiotic. Boykins does nothing but chuck up shots. The Denver Front Office hated the Smurf and were pissed that Karl played him so much. Hell, Melo and Camby cheered when they were told Boykins was traded.

Boykins isn't told to chuck up shots, that is the only way he plays.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

cpawfan said:


> This is idiotic. Boykins does nothing but chuck up shots. The Denver Front Office hated the Smurf and were pissed that Karl played him so much. Hell, Melo and Camby cheered when they were told Boykins was traded.
> 
> Boykins isn't told to chuck up shots, that is the only way he plays.


Have you not been listening to the Bucks fans? Stotts tells everyone when and how many times to shoot. The players own aggression and tendencies have nothing to do with it.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> Have you not been listening to the Bucks fans? Stotts tells everyone when and how many times to shoot. The players own aggression and tendencies have nothing to do with it.


Guards are in a position to be selfish and shoot whenever they want, they run the offense and have the ball in their hands, centers on the other hand usually need to be given the ball in order to contribute to the offense. If you only gave the ball to Amare 7-8 times a game he would average about 10 ppg.


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> I'm really not trying to jump into this conversation to defend Jemel, but that really was the board consensus. Bogut was supposed to be the next great center.


That's not what I recall at all. There were a few who might have thought he would be great, but they, like those who thought Bogut would be a bust, were the extremes and did not represent the majority.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

23isback said:


> Two words. Jermaine. O'neal.


2 words. kwame brown.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Why do people try and refute Jamel by saying the Bucks have 4 starters out, as an attempt to excuse Bogut for his lackluster play?

That only reflects on the Bucks as a whole, and by mentioning the starters that are out you only strengthen his argument against Bogut, because he still hasn't stepped up to the plate. A couple good games here and there is cool, but with 4 starters out and him being healthy, maybe he should be more assertive.

Then, you can't say he's the 4th or 5th option as a way of saying its designed as such, when he should be the no.1, because you are assuming that he really is a 1, or 2 option when people who have more experience are obviously saying otherwise.

And damn @ being a 4th or 5th option when you have so many starters out. What would he be when the team is fully healthy, 5th or 6th?


Any coach who has a big man he believes can be great will not waste time trying to get him the ball if it can potentially save his job.

For those saying they drafted Bogut because they had the number 1 pick and they shouldn't draft a better player just because they would have a logjam, i say this. Ever heard of people preferring to have a ton of talent and have the problem of trying to make it work, over having a bunch of good players and be stuck in a poor position.

Also, whatever happened to trading down? 

We already seen what happened to TJ Ford, traded for Villaneuva. Now lets say they have drafted Deron Williams or Chris Paul. They would have had either one of those players and TJ Ford, who would then be traded for Charlie Villanueva. 

At this point a Paul/Redd/Simmons/Villanueva/Gadzuric or a Deron Williams/Redd/Simmons/Villanueva/Gadzuric lineup would be much better than a M.Williams/Redd/Simmons/Villanueva/Bogut lineup.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

roux2dope said:


> Guards are in a position to be selfish and shoot whenever they want, they run the offense and have the ball in their hands, centers on the other hand usually need to be given the ball in order to contribute to the offense. If you only gave the ball to Amare 7-8 times a game he would average about 10 ppg.



But no coach would have that happen on their team. Let's keep in mind that Earl Boykins has ALWAYS been a chucker, and that Carmelo Anthony still averaged 26ppg last season and 31ppg this season with Boykins as a teammate. 

Don't pass blame onto Boykins, and while he is a chuck, if you as a coach know you have a player capable of carrying the team, you will make sure that happens and that he is not overlooked by a midget who's gunning for self. 

They have to know Bogut night in, night out, is not the way to win games. Therefore you see Boykins with the green light.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> Have you not been listening to the Bucks fans? Stotts tells everyone when and how many times to shoot. The players own aggression and tendencies have nothing to do with it.


LMAO. Yep, that is exactly what we have been saying!

No, what we are saying is that Stotts' offense is guard oriented with guards taking the majority of the shots. The reason Mo is being run out of town this season is because he is making more than TJ did last year.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> This is exactly what I am talking about. So Stotts woke up one morning after his 30 ppg scorer went down and decided to give Bogy the ball. Then for some odd reason after Bogy played well he changed his mind and told Bell and Boykins to chuck up shots? Are you serious?


Of course I am serious. Boykins wasn't around immediatly after Redd and Williams went down. Mo went down the game after Michael.

It seemed like after both Mo and Michael went down, Bogut was getting more looks, but we were losing because 4 of our 5 starters were out. Then, because the results weren't there (we were kind of still in the playoff race), Stotts went back to the chuck offense, Boykins was brought it, and you see guys like Charlie Bell and Boykins putting up 15 shots per game, each.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Tragedy said:


> Why do people try and refute Jamel by saying the Bucks have 4 starters out, as an attempt to excuse Bogut for his lackluster play?
> 
> That only reflects on the Bucks as a whole, and by mentioning the starters that are out you only strengthen his argument against Bogut, because he still hasn't stepped up to the plate. A couple good games here and there is cool, but with 4 starters out and him being healthy, maybe he should be more assertive.
> 
> ...



:thumbdown:


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> Why do people try and refute Jamel by saying the Bucks have 4 starters out, as an attempt to excuse Bogut for his lackluster play?
> 
> That only reflects on the Bucks as a whole, and by mentioning the starters that are out you only strengthen his argument against Bogut, because he still hasn't stepped up to the plate. A couple good games here and there is cool, but with 4 starters out and him being healthy, maybe he should be more assertive.
> 
> ...


Its hard to be assertive when you spend the whole game standing beyond the free throw game handing the ball off to the guards. He is shooting 55% from the floor not 35% so why he isn't getting more looks is beyond me, maybe it is Stotts fault for running a guard orientated offense, but I have seen almost every game he has played, its part Stotts and part lack of aggression, Bogut always seems to look for a someone cutting down the lane or to kick it out for a 3, I would love to see him be more aggressive when he does get those rare inside looks, he has a nice post game and shoots well with both hands.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Anyone calling Andrew a bust has not seen the Bucks offensive sets.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Jizzy said:


> Anyone calling Andrew a bust has not seen the Bucks offensive sets.


Wow! and this is coming from someone who appears to be a Nets fan, I am impressed. I figured you needed to be like me a season ticket holder to really understand how this team operates, but apparently you just need to know a little about basketball, well done Jizzy.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

roux2dope said:


> Wow! and this is coming from someone who appears to be a Nets fan, I am impressed. I figured you needed to be like me a season ticket holder to really understand how this team operates, but apparently you just need to know a little about basketball, well done Jizzy.



Thanks!


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Jizzy said:


> Anyone calling Andrew a bust has not seen the Bucks offensive sets.


Exactly.

And I am not making an excuse for Andrew. Would I like to see him put up 20/10 more? Yes. But the fact is that in this offensive, it is impossible for him to be more than a 15/10 player. How great were the big men of the Big 3?

Do I think Bogut is capable of 18/10/5? Yes. Would that be "good enough" for Jamal? Who knows.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> :thumbdown:





Jizzy said:


> Anyone calling Andrew a bust has not seen the Bucks offensive sets.


If this is all you are going to say you should go back to saying Bogut isn't a bust because Kwame Brown sucks.



> LMAO. Yep, that is exactly what we have been saying!
> 
> No, what we are saying is that Stotts' offense is guard oriented with guards taking the majority of the shots. The reason Mo is being run out of town this season is because he is making more than TJ did last year.


As cpawfan pointed out, if you are an aggressive player like Boykins is you will always find your shots regardless of who the coach is. 

Bogut is just a less talented Rasheed. Content to float around on the perimeter (or high post) and let the action come to them. 

Bogut talks a big game saying he wants more responsibility, but he doesn't back it up.



> Do I think Bogut is capable of 18/10/5? Yes. Would that be "good enough" for Jamal? Who knows.


Can't speak for Jamal, but that would be good for me, I would also like to see him get the bucks to the playoffs and contend for the division title, assuming they have the same roster.

Stotts will be fired at the end of this season and hopefully that means you are out of excuses.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> Stotts will be fired at the end of this season and hopefully that means you are out of excuses.


Again, if you knew more about the Bucks organization, you would know that this probably won't be the case.

The Owner hired Stotts, and he will decide whether or not Stotts is gone. If it were up to Larry Harris, Stotts would be gone now.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> As cpawfan pointed out, if you are an aggressive player like Boykins is you will always find your shots regardless of who the coach is.


Do you realize how much easier it is for a guard to find shots than a forward, especially how our offensive sets are run?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

DHarris34Phan said:


> They are having a dissapointing season, but when having 4 outta 5 starters injured, including one who would have been an All Star, underacheiving results.


Dude, they got blown out by the Washington Generals. There was no excuse for that performance.




DHarris34Phan said:


> LOL. So because players like Paul and Deron Williams... are playing slightly better than Bogut


And Hitler was just a little anti-semitic. Just a little.



DHarris34Phan said:


> In 2 years, the top 5 from this draft class will be Paul, Williams, Bogut, Ellis, and Lee. Bynum and Villanueva could enter the discussion aswell.


Next year Bogut won't even be the best center from the 2005 draft.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Well, I am officially giving up, I am getting sick of repeating myself, and the common sense is just starting to run dry. So call him a bust I don't give a ****, I know what he is capable of doing and what kind of situation he is playing in, no sense in arguing with people that just look at numbers and go "you wasted a #1 because he isn't a franchise player like Shaq was"..I am done with this thread, continue comparing him to Chris Mihm and Kwame Brown when at the worst he is putting up numbers like a young Vlade Divac the man who he was directly compared to prior to the draft.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Big men take longer to develop. That is a fact. What's insane is that Jamel is labeling Bogut a bust already, in his second season.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Again, if you knew more about the Bucks organization, you would know that this probably won't be the case.
> 
> The Owner hired Stotts, and he will decide whether or not Stotts is gone. If it were up to Larry Harris, Stotts would be gone now.


Unless the Bucks catch fire when Redd returns Stotts will be fired.

So when Stotts is fired will you admit I know more about the Bucks then you?


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> Unless the Bucks catch fire when Redd returns Stotts will be fired.
> 
> So when Stotts is fired will you admit I know more about the Bucks then you?


Stotts should be fired, the whole world knows that. It is fact though that Harris didn't hire him, Kohl did. I guess Kohl really likes him from assistant days under George Karl. I follow the Bucks religously and I am scared he may be back in 07-08, he is a terrible coach but holds the ever powerful injury card. I wouldnt be surprised if Kohl gave him one more season with a healthy team. I agree with you though, this team will actually be back to full strength tommorow, and if they don't make any progress the final 2 months of the season he probably will get fired.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Bogut was the first player taken in a draft filled with talent, so yes, he is a first pick bust. Stotts may be stupid, but he isn't incompetent. If Bogut isn't getting more than ten shots a game there is a reason for it - part of that has to be Bogut. If I were the number one pick in the draft and felt I wasn't getting the number of touches I warrant on a team that's 19-34, believe I would complain and get the situation changed. Number ones have that luxury. Bogut must be too soft to approach Stotts. He needs to put some bass in his voice. 

And let's not underestimate that this guy is a complete hack on the defensive end. If he were a great defender, he'd warrant the number pick on that alone. Is anyone calling Oden the next great offensive post player? Of course not, but he's going number one because he can shut down the paint. If Bogut was half the defender Oden is, this thread never would've been started. Instead, Bogut is content to get punched in the mouth every night and cave in. You can't have that from a franchise player. You can't have that from a number one pick. You can't have that from your starting center, period.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> Unless the Bucks catch fire when Redd returns Stotts will be fired.
> 
> So when Stotts is fired will you admit I know more about the Bucks then you?


You base that on the fact we will win less than 30 games. You have no idea what goes on within the Bucks organiztion.

Again, with knowledge of the organization, there is a very good chance Stotts stays because Kohl loves him.

Face it, when it comes to the Bucks, and Andrew Bogut, you use stats as the only way to determine whether he meets your standards as a player.

The people, like me and roux2dope, who actually watch the games and see what's going on within the Franchise, know that Bogut is a lot better than you are giving him credit for, mainly based on his 12/9/3 statline.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> Bogut was the first player taken in a draft filled with talent, so yes, he is a first pick bust. Stotts may be stupid, but he isn't incompetent.


The 3 players that were possible picks were Bougt, Marvin Williams, and Paul. Looking at the Bucks situation at the time, Bogut was the OBVIOUS choice, and with the development of Mo Williams, would probably be the choice again.

And yes, when it comes to utilizing big men, Stotts has proven to be incompetent. Name me one time in his coaching, or assistant coaching career where the offense isn't guard oriented. Shawn Kemp is the only exceptation, and even then Seattle was a run and gun team.



> If Bogut isn't getting more than ten shots a game there is a reason for it - part of that has to be Bogut. If I were the number one pick in the draft and felt I wasn't getting the number of touches I warrant on a team that's 19-34, believe I would complain and get the situation changed.


Again, look at the offense. Andrew Bogut doesn't have control on how the coach runs the offense. He has complained many times, but Kohl hasn't allowed Harris to make a coaching change.



> And let's not underestimate that this guy is a complete hack on the defensive end. If he were a great defender, he'd warrant the number pick on that alone. Is anyone calling Oden the next great offensive post player? Of course not, but he's going number one because he can shut down the paint. If Bogut was half the defender Oden is, this thread never would've been started. Instead, Bogut is content to get punched in the mouth every night and cave in. You can't have that from a franchise player. You can't have that from a number one pick. You can't have that from your starting center, period.


Bogut is a very solid average defender. A complete hack is definitly exagerrating, but considering this thread, that will probably be re-hashed once or twice more.

You can't be an average defender at the Center position if you average 18/10, which Bogut will be doing in the next 2 years? (Next year if we hired Rick Adelmen)


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

DHarris34Phan said:


> The 3 players that were possible picks were Bougt, Marvin Williams, and Paul. Looking at the Bucks situation at the time, Bogut was the OBVIOUS choice, and with the development of Mo Williams, would probably be the choice again.


Excuse me young sir, but if we draft Marvin Williams, that's basically like getting Charlie V. So we'd have Mo and TJ platooning the point still (an upgrade), Redd would be Redd, Simmons/Patterson wouldn't change with the possible exception that we wouldn't have signed Simmons, so we'd have cap room, we would have Gadzuric starting, EARNING that contract and by the way Gadz is a better player than Bogut. He defends like a man and runs the court like an athlete. Bogut runs the floor like a fat guy.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

> The 3 players that were possible picks were Bougt, Marvin Williams, and Paul. Looking at the Bucks situation at the time, Bogut was the OBVIOUS choice, and with the development of Mo Williams, would probably be the choice again.


You could throw Deron Williams in there, but that's a side note. Also, you have to consider the fact that there were post talents available in the 5-15 range (Villaneuva, Diogu, Bynum, Frye). Since when was there a rule against trading down? Honestly, Bogut was so dominant in college that I wasn't surprised he went first. That said, I'm also not surprised that he hasn't lived up to expectations. Mo Williams isn't a reason to pass up on talents like Paul and Deron Williams. I probably would've considered taking the other Williams before Bogut too. Obviously, the pick, insofar as it filling a need, made sense. Unfortunately, there were other players available later on in the draft that could've filled the need also. Milwaukee reached on a number one pick and it cost them. If trades needed to be made, they had plenty of leverage to do so. 




> And yes, when it comes to utilizing big men, Stotts has proven to be incompetent. Name me one time in his coaching, or assistant coaching career where the offense isn't guard oriented. Shawn Kemp is the only exceptation, and even then Seattle was a run and gun team.


I think that's besides the point. Again, as bad as the Bucks are doing, I refuse to believe that the blame for Bogut not getting more touches lies solely on Stotts. I already stated that Bogut should be getting more touches from what I can ascertain from the handful of Bucks games I've watched, but how do you explain sub 10? That leads me to believe Bogut isn't capable of being a number one or two option, which people believed he could be coming out of college. 



> Again, look at the offense. Andrew Bogut doesn't have control on how the coach runs the offense. He has complained many times, but Kohl hasn't allowed Harris to make a coaching change.


Well, maybe it is time to ask for a trade. I doubt he wants to piss away his pro career in an organization that is apparently incompetent. If Stotts isn't gone by the end of the season, if not sooner, I'd be absolutely shocked. That said, if he remains for another season, Bogut loses all my respect if he doesn't ask for a trade. He's a number one pick and it is time he started acting like one. 



> Bogut is a very solid average defender. A complete hack is definitly exagerrating, but considering this thread, that will probably be re-hashed once or twice more.


Eh, I don't know. A handful of games, admittedly, probably isn't enough for me to base my opinion on. That said, watching Bogut get his chest chaved in against opposing players has led me to that opinion. Either way, averaging under a block a game for his career is criminal. 



> You can't be an average defender at the Center position if you average 18/10, which Bogut will be doing in the next 2 years? (Next year if we hired Rick Adelmen)


Guys like Eddy Curry beg to differ. Fortunately for him, his unmatched offensive efficiency trumps the fact that he fails miserably at every other aspect of basketball. In a system that utilizes I wouldn't be surprised at Bogut putting those numbers up. He should be doing it already. 

On a side note, I think it is weird that Bogut has received little to no national media criticism for his sub par play. Milwaukee isn't a press hot spot, but you'd think the number one pick with his lack of success would be getting grilled nightly by ESPN. Any theories as to why he has gotten a free ride?


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> On a side note, I think it is weird that Bogut has received little to no national media criticism for his sub par play. Milwaukee isn't a press hot spot, but you'd think the number one pick with his lack of success would be getting grilled nightly by ESPN. Any theories as to why he has gotten a free ride?


because 12, 9 and 3 with his shooting percentage isn't nearly as bad as some people in this thread are making it out to be. it's his 2nd season and he's putting up solid numbers. he's unselfish. the only players out of his draft class to definitely be better than him to this point are guys that played a position that was absolutely not a need when he was drafted(paul, deron, and i'll throw in felton too). and it can't hurt that the one guy who was his main contention for the #1 pick(marvin williams) has been even worse.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> because 12, 9 and 3 with his shooting percentage isn't nearly as bad as some people in this thread are making it out to be. it's his 2nd season and he's putting up solid numbers. he's unselfish. the only players out of his draft class to definitely be better than him to this point are guys that played a position that was absolutely not a need when he was drafted(paul, deron, and i'll throw in felton too). and it can't hurt that the one guy who was his main contention for the #1 pick(marvin williams) has been even worse.


Marvin Williams has been worse but he was a "raw talent" to begin with - no one was expecting him to do great his first couple of years. Besides, he has a few good wing players to contend with for time. He has an excuse. 

The Bucks are 19-34. I just find it odd that the media hasn't used that situation as a chance to create hype. Bogut just hasn't done what is expected out of a number one pick.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Bogut doesn't take crap because Milwaukee gets no press.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Marvin Williams has been worse but he was a "raw talent" to begin with - no one was expecting him to do great his first couple of years. Besides, he has a few good wing players to contend with for time. He has an excuse.
> 
> The Bucks are 19-34. I just find it odd that the media hasn't used that situation as a chance to create hype. Bogut just hasn't done what is expected out of a number one pick.


Williams also was injured for about the beginning third of the season, and then had to come in and fight for minutes with guys who were already established in the rotation. He was a major candidate to breakout this season and just watching him play you can see that potential is there. With more consistent minutes we'll keep seeing more and more improvement by Marvin Williams.

Bogut gets a free pass because Milwaukee was not expected to even make the playoffs by the national press, even though we do have that kind of talent when all players are healthy, the market is small, and Bogut was acknowledged at the time to be a #1 by default.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> You base that on the fact we will win less than 30 games. You have no idea what goes on within the Bucks organiztion.
> 
> Again, with knowledge of the organization, there is a very good chance Stotts stays because Kohl loves him.
> 
> ...


Answer the question. When Stotts gets fired at the end of the season will you "face it" and admit I know more about the Bucks then you? I want a direct answer.

As for stats, you brought them up first, not me. Kind of ironic that you kept using them to defend Bogut and now are saying they are irrelevant.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> As cpawfan pointed out, if you are an aggressive player like Boykins is you will always find your shots regardless of who the coach is.


That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying Boykins is known to not pass the ball to his big men.

Karl gave the smurf the green light to do what he wanted and Stotts is doing the same thing. That wouldn't happen under most coaches.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

I love it when us fans start calling an NBA coach "incompetent"...

As for stats: Andrew Bynum is shooting .547FG%; Kwame Brown, .561FG%. Phil Jackson is certainly a retard for not envolving them much more on offense...


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> Answer the question. When Stotts gets fired at the end of the season will you "face it" and admit I know more about the Bucks then you? I want a direct answer.


No. Because I would love to see him fired. I just think, because I know more about the Milwaukee organiztion, that there is a chance, even when it is obvious that Stotts needs to be fired, that he is retained because of the injuries this year.

Stotts being fired won't mean you know about the Bucks than me. Anybody that looks at a team that is 19-34 and predicts a coaching firing is logical. But, in this case, Kohl hasn't always done the most logical things.



> As for stats, you brought them up first, not me. Kind of ironic that you kept using them to defend Bogut and now are saying they are irrelevant.


I brought stats up because that is the only way that YOU measure a players abilities.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> Williams also was injured for about the beginning third of the season, and then had to come in and fight for minutes with guys who were already established in the rotation. He was a major candidate to breakout this season and just watching him play you can see that potential is there. With more consistent minutes we'll keep seeing more and more improvement by Marvin Williams.


Bogut didn't have a significant leg injury in training camp? The guy was supposed to miss the first month of the season.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> I think that's besides the point. Again, as bad as the Bucks are doing, I refuse to believe that the blame for Bogut not getting more touches lies solely on Stotts.


I don't blame it solely on Stotts. Andrew has a piss poor attitude some of the time, and only he can change that. But running around the high post setting screens all day when your shooting 55% from the field wouldn't make me feel great, either.




> Bogut loses all my respect if he doesn't ask for a trade. He's a number one pick and it is time he started acting like one.


You keep saying this. So basically you think he should act like a primmadonna and get people fired and hired until it meets his standards?

He would be crucified for that, probably by people like you and Jamal, too.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> I brought stats up because that is the only way that YOU measure a players abilities.


That makes a lot of sense. You used stats to back up your case against mine (when you admit they aren't a good measure) despite the fact that I didn't use stats.

This is like me saying "violence is not the answer!" and then shooting a peaceful protester because violence is all that person knows.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

DHarris34Phan said:


> I brought stats up because that is the only way that YOU measure a players abilities.


JI doesn't use stats, rather he uses his own JI scale.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

DHarris34Phan said:


> *So, if he got over 10 touches a game, we could assume he'd get about 16 ppg and 10 rebounds a game. *I won't bother looking at his assists, because I know he'd be good for about 3 assists a game regardless of his touches.
> 
> Point is, get him more involved, and the more productive he becomes. Funny how that works.


I'm sorry, I missed this post the first time through. I need some clarification though, why does he need 10 FGA/g to get the rebounds? Shouldn't he be getting those anyway? Or are you saying that he only puts in the work on the glass when they feed him shots?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

ehmunro said:


> I'm sorry, I missed this post the first time through. I need some clarification though, why does he need 10 FGA/g to get the rebounds? Shouldn't he be getting those anyway? Or are you saying that he only puts in the work on the glass when they feed him shots?


It seems that he has been a better rebounder when he has been more involved in the offense.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Bogut 15/6/5 on 6-9 shooting tonight vs. Detroit. Could of rebounded better, but he was usually boxing out Sheed so Skinner could board up. Very solid performance from Andrew, but our offensive strategy bites us in the butt yet again.

While Bogut got 9 FGAs (more than usual), Michael Redd, Mo Willams, and Charlie Bell shot 46 times, making 19 of them. Boykins was 0-4 also, meaning our guards shot 50 times out of our total 72 shots. That is 69% of the shots coming from the backcourt. 

If you want to continue to blame Bogut for not being able to break out in terms of stats, tonight was a great example of where I am coming from. The offense was the same old, Bogut set screens or pass from the high post. I counted only 5 plays that were either Bogut starting from the blocks posting up, or where a pick and roll was passed to him. He converted 4 of them. His other 2 FGs were off putbacks.

So, continue to bash Bogut all you want JI, but if you watched tonight, you would have seen what us Bucks fans have been watching all year.

15 points when the backcourt shoots nearly 70 percent of the time is pretty impressive, IMO.


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## columbo (Jun 11, 2003)

I think he is a bust, he can't defend at all and he can't create at all and he can't even shoot .He gets ball plenty enough but he can't do anything with it and just looks to get rid of it and of course if he doesn't do anything no one has confidence to give him ball thereafter. 

He is very awkward and robotic in nearly everything he does like his buddies Kwame and Kandi . He is not a natural talent but a learned one and everything he knows about basketball seems rudimentary and unconnected.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

> I don't blame it solely on Stotts. Andrew has a piss poor attitude some of the time, and only he can change that. But running around the high post setting screens all day when your shooting 55% from the field wouldn't make me feel great, either.


Fair enough. I just wish Stotts would get fired and replaced with a decent coach so Bogut could sink or swim on his own accord. I've come to accept that the Milwaukee offense is despicable, but still believe to a point that if Bogut was as good as people claim he was, he would be more involved in the offense. Obviously, he could do more damage if he was put in positions to score more often. 



> You keep saying this. So basically you think he should act like a primmadonna and get people fired and hired until it meets his standards?


Sure, why not? Milwaukee sucks. They run a terrible offense and have a terrible coach who happens to have an awful track record. Bogut is the number one pick. Make something happen, Andrew. It isn't about being a prima donna but, rather, getting your team wins. Albeit, this is only his second season in the league so he may not wanna speak up and I guess I can deal with that. If the BS continues into next season and Bogut doesn't raise hell, there is no excuse left. 




> He would be crucified for that, probably by people like you and Jamal, too.


That makes three. Jamel may join the entourage as well.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Bogut 15/6/5 on 6-9 shooting tonight vs. Detroit. Could of rebounded better, but he was usually boxing out Sheed so Skinner could board up. Very solid performance from Andrew, but our offensive strategy bites us in the butt yet again.
> 
> While Bogut got 9 FGAs (more than usual), Michael Redd, Mo Willams, and Charlie Bell shot 46 times, making 19 of them. Boykins was 0-4 also, meaning our guards shot 50 times out of our total 72 shots. That is 69% of the shots coming from the backcourt.
> 
> ...


I love it. Because Rasheed is usually a terror on the offensive glass right.

You should of said: "Could of scored better, but he was a decoy on offensive to distract Sheed so Redd and Williams could score up."

Keep being the Bogut apologist.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Pretty soon you're going to be adding another B to the Andrew bust... Bynum He'll be solid... Maybe a 10 and 8 guy... But at this point where he is untouchable and is regarded as the future, he will never live up to that...


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> I love it. Because Rasheed is usually a terror on the offensive glass right.
> 
> You should of said: "Could of scored better, but he was a decoy on offensive to distract Sheed so Redd and Williams could score up."
> 
> Keep being the Bogut apologist.


If you watched the game, you would know what I was talking about. But, of course, you didn't, so I suggest keeping your opinion to yourself.

Us that saw the game know what I was talking about. It happened a lot with Magloire last year, too.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Hibachi! said:


> Pretty soon you're going to be adding another B to the Andrew bust... Bynum He'll be solid... Maybe a 10 and 8 guy... But at this point where he is untouchable and is regarded as the future, he will never live up to that...


Disagree, at this point last year 10 and 8 career numbers people would of been very happy with. So he went from short expectations to big. Maybe a 10 and 8 guy? That is what he has averaged since Kwame went down as a first year playing 19 year old.

Should he be untouchable? No. If Gasol was really available for Bynum it was dumb not to trade him. However nobody trades 10 and 8 19 year old centers for 32 year old point guards unless their window of opportunity is closing, considering the Lakers have only one rotation player over the age of 27 that's not the case for them. 

I love you like you love the Lakers s-star.

Dharris, you're excuses for Bogut are becoming silly to anyone that reads this thread. And you keep falling back to the "you don't watch the bucks 80 times a year" BS.

I'ts almost to the point where I want to force myself to watch three Bucks games in a row so you can drop it and come up with something else.

Even BOGUT HIMSELF, is dissapointed in his play, but you are not. Go figure.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> Dharris, you're excuses for Bogut are becoming silly to anyone that reads this thread. And you keep falling back to the "you don't watch the bucks 80 times a year" BS.


Yep. I wouldn't make threads about players unless I have thoroughly evaluated them. You, by watching the Bucks play maybe 5 times this year, have made claims that lack knowledge of the subject.

I could call Andrea Bargnani a bust based on his lackluster numbers, but I have only seen the Raptors play a handful of times. I am not going to make myself look stupid by calling out players I know nothing about.



> I'ts almost to the point where I want to force myself to watch three Bucks games in a row so you can drop it and come up with something else.


So you think actually watching games will help your perspective on evaluating players and team play? Well I'll be damned.



> Even BOGUT HIMSELF, is dissapointed in his play, but you are not. Go figure.


He isn't dissapointed with his play more than his role of the team. He is playing the part of a role playing center quite nicely, when he feels he could be the 1st or 2nd option. Can't say I disagree with him.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> I love you like you love the Lakers s-star.



Shh... Tim Hardaway might be around...


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

DHarris34Phan said:


> I could call Andrea Bargnani a bust based on his lackluster numbers, but I have only seen the Raptors play a handful of times. I am not going to make myself look stupid by calling out players I know nothing about.


Yeah that would be a pretty stupid thing to say.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> Yeah that would be a pretty stupid thing to say.


What?


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

That Bargnani is a bust.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> That Bargnani is a bust.


Exactly. But he's only averaging 10 and 3! What a waste of life!


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Barganani isn't a bust based on his numbers. Whoever says that is retarded.

He is doing better than I expected in terms of numbers. I was expecting Dirk rookie year numbers.

Oh, and I will say this for literally the last time DHarris <b>I NEVER SAID BOGUT WAS A BUST BASED ON HIS STATS</b>. Thanks!


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> Oh, and I will say this for literally the last time DHarris <b>I NEVER SAID BOGUT WAS A BUST BASED ON HIS STATS</b>. Thanks!


I have looked at the thread again, and it took me a few minutes to recover from laughing before typing this.

Basically, you said Andrew Bogut is a bust because to you he won't become another Tim Duncan. You also made the unsubstantiated claims about not being able to lead the team with 4 out of 5 starters out. Well, name me one player that would lead a team with 4 of 5 staters out. Thanks in advance.

But, instead of listening to us and making a realistic observation, you lumped Bogut in with Chris Mihm. That is where my goal of trying to enlighten you started. 

It is one thing to say Bogut isn't living up to his, or our expectations, because he hasn't, some with and some without reason. To call him Chris Mihm is just ridiculous, and shows you a) were going for shock value, b) know very little of the subject, or c) both. I am going with b and c on this one.

So, again, what the hell are you calling him a bust for that we haven't gone over already???


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

I'll bump this one up. Maybe Jamel has a little different view of Bogut after he went 22/6/6 against his Lakers tonight.

Made Andrew Bynum look like a D-Leauger tonight.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Bynum sucks, whats your point?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Drewbs said:


> Bynum sucks, whats your point?


Point is Bogut dominated the Lakers tonight. I don't care if Kobe and Odom are out, if Bogut is bad as Jamel thinks he is he wouldn't have dominated them as much as he did tonight.

And I doubt Jamel would agree with you that Bynum sucks.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Drewbs said:


> Bynum sucks, whats your point?


i think the point is, after scoring 22 points and dishing out 6 assists tonight, bogut is averaging 11 points and 3 assists in his past 2 games


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Pimped Out said:


> i think the point is, after scoring 22 points and dishing out 6 assists tonight, bogut is averaging 11 points and 3 assists in his past 2 games


LMAO.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

You can't judge Bogut by stats, that's what you told me.


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

you cant judge a poster by his stature on the board either 

what a retarded thread


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> You can't judge Bogut by stats, that's what you told me.


I only used his stats as a frame of reference to people that didn't see the game. Did you actually watch this one Jamel??

Of course you did. That explains why you are all of a sudden silent.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Why is Jamel acting like a kid?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Jizzy said:


> Why is Jamel acting like a kid?


He's embarrassed that this whole thread totally backfired against him. Watching Bogut (for probably the first time this year) must have been earth shattering for him.

Bogut DOMINATED the Lakers last night.

I mean, if Andrew Bynum is as good as Jamel thinks he is, shouldn't he have had a great game against the lowly Bucks, with Brian Skinner and Andrew Bogut manning the paint???


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

DHarris34Phan said:


> I'll bump this one up. Maybe Jamel has a little different view of Bogut after he went 22/6/6 against his Lakers tonight.


Where were you when Bogut had 0pts, 3rbds, 3tos and 4pf in 25 minutes against Orlando?



> Made Andrew Bynum look like a D-Leauger tonight.


And who made Bogut look like a D-Leaguer that day (and absolutely NOT a #1 draft pick)?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Where were you when Bogut had 0pts, 3rbds, 3tos and 4pf in 25 minutes against Orlando?
> 
> 
> 
> And who made Bogut look like a D-Leaguer that day (and absolutely NOT a #1 draft pick)?


If someone would have bumped this thread 2 nights ago, I would have agreed. Bogut looked like crap, but so did the rest of the team. After the demoralizing loss vs. Chicago, then travel down to Orlando, nobody played well vs. Orlando.

But yeah, Bogut sucked vs. Orlando. It's hard to score points when you only take 1 shot.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Where were you when Bogut had 0pts, 3rbds, 3tos and 4pf in 25 minutes against Orlando?
> 
> 
> 
> And who made Bogut look like a D-Leaguer that day (and absolutely NOT a #1 draft pick)?



WHere the hell were you on his good nights? Even Kobe has off games. Judging a player by one game is probably the worst logic you can reach for but then again, this is the NBA General forum.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> He's embarrassed that this whole thread totally backfired against him. Watching Bogut (for probably the first time this year) must have been earth shattering for him.
> 
> Bogut DOMINATED the Lakers last night.
> 
> I mean, if Andrew Bynum is as good as Jamel thinks he is, shouldn't he have had a great game against the lowly Bucks, with Brian Skinner and Andrew Bogut manning the paint???


Are we going to update this thread every day? Bogut has good games and Bogut has shut outs.

That's why we have AVERAGES. Look up the word in the dictionary if you need to.

By the way, how good do you think I think Andrew Bynum is? Or do you want to put more words in my mouth.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> WHere the hell were you on his good nights? Even Kobe has off games. Judging a player by one game is probably the worst logic you can reach for but then again, this is the NBA General forum.


Yo, read up, dude. 
Try to stay in context.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> Yo, read up, dude.
> Try to stay in context.


Be patient, he struggles to grasp concepts in his reading.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

It's really silly to argue this with Paulo and Jamel.They decided what was true before they ever saw the guy play and nothing else is true so long as they can craw a breath.Funny how Bogut looks exactly like I thought he would,perhaps because I didn't let hyperbole rule my judgement.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Be patient, he struggles to grasp concepts in his reading.




As your patience does. Did you call Bynum a bust last season? 

Honestly, for 27 year old, you have no patience. Suprising to see that from one of our "older" posters.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Diable said:


> It's really silly to argue this with Paulo and Jamel.They decided what was true before they ever saw the guy play and nothing else is true so long as they can craw a breath.Funny how Bogut looks exactly like I thought he would,perhaps because I didn't let hyperbole rule my judgement.



They will dissapear after he has good games and come back after he has off nights. I stil doubt Jamel has seen Bogut play more then twice.

Classic.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> They will dissapear after he has good games and come back after he has off nights. I stil doubt Jamel has seen Bogut play more then twice.
> 
> Classic.


This is what you don't grasp. I will type it in bold for you: <b>I didn't post after Bogut was shut out. I posted after Bogut scored 22.</b>

You and HarrisPhan didn't post anything the night Bogy was shut out.

Not a single thing I have said has been refuted in this thread, and you and Harrisphan resort to making stuff up like saying I haven't watch Bogy play or I called him a bust based on stats. Or you can just waive the white flag and call me biased like Diable. And of course who can forget your comical arguments where you called Kobe a bust in his second season or said Bogy wasn't a bust because Kwame Brown sucks.

I saw Bogut play twice when he was still a freshman, do you know who Tim Frost is?


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## JK_5 (Mar 9, 2007)

Im gonna jump into this debate late but I have read all the posts to date and wanted to respond:

1.) Im an aussie so naturally im interested in Bogut and how he performs because Australian Basketball is desperately lacking in respect and popularity at the moment (probably for good reason). 

2.) Americans and NBA fans watch too much NBA. All this crap about Bogut is the #1 pick he needs to lead his team, he should demand the ball etc is wrong. He comes from a basketball background not a US "Im the man" background. He does his job, he sets screens, he passes and when his number is called he invariably takes a good shot (and hits 55% of them). Watch some euroleague or olympic basketball games and why the talent athletically may be lower, the game is much better. big men get fed by the guards on the drive and dish, everyone moves on offense, all 5 players on the court are a threat to score etc. NBA is horrible in this regard. Sure the players have talent but the system and the development of "team players" is terrible. Count the number of reckless out of control charges PGs rack up, the number of useless fade aways under pressure with the shot clock winding down, the number of plays that feature no passes - the NBA is a poor excuse for basketball. So how this relates to Bogut, is that he doesnt come from that background. He needs time to realise he has to become an assertive player if he wants to be the best and earn the respect of American fans.

3.) If any of you seriosuly watch the games and can tell me with a straight face that Chris Mihm, Andrew Bynum, Ike Diogu, Amare and even Dwight Howard are better fundamental basketball players that Bogut, you are lying. His skill set is superior to most big men in the league and a number of guards/swingmen in the NBA. Unfortunately, he is not blessed physically like Amare and Howard and is not able to dunk over players numerous times a game. Watching Howard vs Chicago today, I was amazed at his lack of post moves or jump shot but similarly was amazed he is still able to put up 17 and 14 off dunks alone. It is not a league where Bogut can excel off those type of plays. He needs good post position with the floor spread with shooters or to be fed off the drive and dish by a good PG (see Stoudemire and Nash. He is not getting this standing at the FT line for 80% of his mins in Milwaukee.

4.) Enough with the stats comparisons. Ike Diogu would be great if he played 48 mins a game etc. Its crap. If you want to evaluate a player you have to watch him play. See how he moves, what is his IQ like etc. You dont fully appreciate how good a player Kobe is until you watch him, same with Lebron. 

5.) those points aside as an Aussie fan I think Bogut should be producing more. He was a one-man show in college. But go back and watch some of those tapes and count the number of plays that doesnt start with a post feed into Bogut. I dont think the NBA or specifically Milwaukee is a place where you will see the best of Bogut. Unfortunately he was taken number 1 and has to deal with the attached expectations. But calling him a bust is unwarranted. Dissapointing maybe, underutilised definitely, bust NO - he has shown enough to suggest he can play in the league but he will need to start showing that aggression and fire he is known for in Australia to suceed in the NBA

A final pt, do you guys actually enjoy watchin the NBA? I watch probably five games a week in Australia and its safe to say I enjoy watchin 1 maybe 2 of those games at max. Yet I enjoy every Euroleague and college game I see. The NBA commentators and fans seem to be so myopic in their opinion of the NBA as the world's premier league that they dont see how bland most of the games are. It is the most impressive collection of talent, but its also the biggest collection of bad attitudes, sulking, whingeing, crying and bad team basketball. And its hard to enjoy a game when the referees would be better of blindfolded. Seriously, they are disgraceful and such a blight on the NBA. 

Sorry for the long post, but heres hoping Bogut proves some ppl wrong


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

^^^^^^
Best post by a Bogut supporter in this thread, bar none. Jizzy take notes. I have nothing to refute that.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Yeah I do. Patterson, Boykins then Bell. Bogut was the 4th option.
> 
> Should tell you something.


Tells you that his coach is a moron, and his PGs can't feed the post.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> 2003- Ming 14/8/2/2


Looks to me like he's about even with Ming at the same age...

It is ridiculous to blame people for things they can't control.

You know Stotts is, at the very least, a coach who does not believe in using the low post as even a part of his offence.

This is not Bogut's fault. 

I'm not a Bucks fan, but I have NEVER seen a single post clearout play run for Bogut, no matter who the matchup is.

He has a complete array of low-post moves. Hooks, fades, half hooks, up & unders. 

Some time in the next couple of years, he will get a chance, certainly a different coach, and maybe a different team.

People will talk about his sudden "improvement". All it will be is a sudden opportunity. He's ready now. He could easily score 20ppg on 50% shooting if they gave him the ball. EASILY.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

> A final pt, do you guys actually enjoy watchin the NBA? I watch probably five games a week in Australia and its safe to say I enjoy watchin 1 maybe 2 of those games at max. Yet I enjoy every Euroleague and college game I see. The NBA commentators and fans seem to be so myopic in their opinion of the NBA as the world's premier league that they dont see how bland most of the games are. It is the most impressive collection of talent, but its also the biggest collection of bad attitudes, sulking, whingeing, crying and bad team basketball. And its hard to enjoy a game when the referees would be better of blindfolded. Seriously, they are disgraceful and such a blight on the NBA.


All that drama makes the league even more interesting.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

The Mad Viking said:


> Tells you that his coach is a moron, and his PGs can't feed the post.


I can't wait until his coach is fired to see what new excuse is invented.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> I can't wait until his coach is fired to see what new excuse is invented.


Well you might have to wait awhile, because Tater Stotts might be coaching here for another year. But, you already guaranteed a firing so....

Again, what did you think of him against your Lakers. Give me a quick evaluation please.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Again, if you knew anything about the Bucks, you would know that Stotts isn't even Larry Harris' guy. He is Herb Kohl's guy. Stotts will stay as long as Kohl wants him too.


Guess I do know something about the Bucks.



> Again, if you knew more about the Bucks organization, you would know that this probably won't be the case.
> 
> The Owner hired Stotts, and he will decide whether or not Stotts is gone. If it were up to Larry Harris, Stotts would be gone now.


Again, I obviously know something about the Bucks.



> You base that on the fact we will win less than 30 games. You have no idea what goes on within the Bucks organiztion.
> 
> Again, with knowledge of the organization, there is a very good chance Stotts stays because Kohl loves him.


Again, didn't even last the entire season.



> Well you might have to wait awhile, because Tater Stotts might be coaching here for another year. But, you already guaranteed a firing so....


Note to everyone, when I guarantee something it happens.

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