# How good was Jerry West?



## CaliCool (Nov 5, 2004)

I started watching basketball after Jordan's Wizards year.. and have followed it closely ever since. (6+ years maybe of watching for me)

And right now I got the luxury of watching really great players such as Tim Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron James... but one thing that really makes me curious is that how Jerry West is regarded as the second best SG in the game. (Ahead of Kobe Bryant)

6-2 guy who scores a lot and gets a lot of assist... Really, how good was he? Really head and shoulders above Kobe?


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

He must have been pretty good for his era. If he played today he would be compared to Chris Quinn.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

He is the only "short shorts" guy that would fit in, in today's game. He played like a modern day player.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Comparing Jerry West (or Oscar Robertson, if you count him as a shooting guard) to Kobe Bryant is difficult due to the large differences in the game back in the 1960's.

From what I know of West, he was a great scorer, shooter (especially quick pull-ups), and overall competitor. He was also a very active defender with great instincts who would probably rank among the league's leaders in steals. He seems to have been an excellent play maker, which is important, since he would probably be some sort of a combo guard in today's league. Finally, he was brilliant in the clutch (hence his nickname).

My biggest question about Jerry West is how he would fare physically in today's NBA. He was quick in the 1960's and obviously a very intelligent player as far as maximizing his potential, but it's difficult to judge from footage of that era just how athletic a player was - except in obvious cases like Wilt.

Regardless, I believe Jerry West would be an all star combo guard in today's league. Would he be better than Kobe? In some respects yes, and others no. Overall better? I'm not sure; my inclination is to say Kobe has the advantage since he is so physically exceptional in today's league.

To answer your question, West was simply incredible in his era and that is the primary reason why so many rank him as the #2 shooting guard of all-time behind Michael Jordan.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

gi0rdun said:


> He must have been pretty good for his era. If he played today he would be compared to Chris Quinn.


You've got to be kidding me..

Also, Jerry West was closer to 6'4 then 6'2, was an awesome passer, a prolific scorer, the clutchest player of all time, and would be one of the very, very few players from that era that would actually benefit from playing today.

And right now in their respective careers, West is ahead of Kobe.


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## BadBaronRudigor (Jul 27, 2006)

This is true, people would be calling Quinn the next Jerry West much as they called Harold Miner the next Michael Jordan. 

GiOrdon, if you really have that little clue about past NBA players, please just post on the regular boards with the rest of the clueless newbites.

Oh, and West wasn't a shooting guard, he was a PG who with the size to play the two. He was the guy who brought the ball up for the Lakers, initiated the offense, and set up his teammates, leading all Laker guards in assists every year he played and leading the league once with a 9.7/game clip in an era where assists were appreciably harder to get. Calling him a SG is like saying the same about Walt Frazier (who had more size and lower assist totals) or Magic Johnson.


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## CaliCool (Nov 5, 2004)

^
If West is a PG then, Kobe's the second best SG of all time?

Just asking.


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## BadBaronRudigor (Jul 27, 2006)

yes, I'd say so . . . Jordan/Kobe/Drexler/Sidney Moncrief/Ray Allen are my top 5 for today, though I go back and forth on Allen. Historically it's pretty easily the weakest position of the 5 in terms of dominant players though there are always a lot of good scorers.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

CaliCool said:


> ^
> If West is a PG then, Kobe's the second best SG of all time?
> 
> Just asking.


Kobe's definatly the second best if you count West as a shooting guard, the whole crop of SG's is really unimpresive after those three.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

BadBaronRudigor said:


> yes, I'd say so . . . Jordan/Kobe/Drexler/Sidney Moncrief/Ray Allen


I'm assuming that Moncrief's exceptional defensive game is what gets him on your list, but what about Allen? Admittedly, when it comes to shooting guards, I'm not much of a historian, but wouldn't someone like Monroe rank higher?

This is unrelated: would you consider Dwayne Wade a PG or SG? I had always taken West to be SG first and a PG second, although his assist numbers seemed to climb later in his career. Similarly, I would classify Wade as a combo SG/PG.

Perhaps there needs to be a class of guards who were both their team's primary scorer and playmaker. In that light, it seems that both West and Robertson were decades ahead of their time.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

JPSeraph said:


> I'm assuming that Moncrief's exceptional defensive game is what gets him on your list, but what about Allen? Admittedly, when it comes to shooting guards, I'm not much of a historian, but wouldn't someone like Monroe rank higher?
> 
> This is unrelated: would you consider Dwayne Wade a PG or SG? I had always taken West to be SG first and a PG second, although his assist numbers seemed to climb later in his career. Similarly, I would classify Wade as a combo SG/PG.
> 
> Perhaps there needs to be a class of guards who were both their team's primary scorer and playmaker. In that light, it seems that both West and Robertson were decades ahead of their time.


Wade was a point in his first year in the league, but once the Heat got Shaq he moved over to the two guard and has stayed ever since.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

BadBaronRudigor said:


> yes, I'd say so . . . Jordan/Kobe/Drexler/Sidney Moncrief/Ray Allen are my top 5 for today, though I go back and forth on Allen. Historically it's pretty easily the weakest position of the 5 in terms of dominant players though there are always a lot of good scorers.


Ray Allen? lol


JPSeraph said:


> I'm assuming that Moncrief's exceptional defensive game is what gets him on your list, but what about Allen? Admittedly, when it comes to shooting guards, I'm not much of a historian, but wouldn't someone like Monroe rank higher?
> 
> This is unrelated: would you consider Dwayne Wade a PG or SG? I had always taken West to be SG first and a PG second, although his assist numbers seemed to climb later in his career. Similarly, I would classify Wade as a combo SG/PG.
> 
> Perhaps there needs to be a class of guards who were both their team's primary scorer and playmaker. In that light, it seems that both West and Robertson were decades ahead of their time.


Wade is a shooting guard. He was a PG his rookie year out of necessity.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

BadBaronRudigor said:


> GiOrdon, if you really have that little clue about past NBA players, please just post on the regular boards with the rest of the clueless newbites.



+1


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

To VanillaPrice and myst: I too have always considered Dwyane Wade to be a shooting guard first and foremost.

However, in spite of the presence of players like Jason Williams, Gary Payton, Marcus Banks, and now Mario Chalmers, Wade has been the Heat's leader in assists per game every year since his rookie season (when he was tied with Rafer Alston).

Similarly, I have always considered Jerry West to have been a shooting guard first (and perhaps more of a point guard later in his career). This is in spite of West's having been the Lakers leader in assists per game for so many seasons.

I am drawing a parallel here between two somewhat undersized scoring guards who spent considerable time handling the ball and setting up their teammates in addition to shooting the ball. Neither player appears to have been a 'pure' shooting guard or point guard, although I am not fully aware of West's role on his various Lakers squads over the years or of who may have been his backcourt mate.


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## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

anyone willing to ask their grandpa and grandma?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

JPSeraph said:


> To VanillaPrice and myst: I too have always considered Dwyane Wade to be a shooting guard first and foremost.
> 
> However, in spite of the presence of players like Jason Williams, Gary Payton, Marcus Banks, and now Mario Chalmers, Wade has been the Heat's leader in assists per game every year since his rookie season (when he was tied with Rafer Alston).
> 
> ...


Wade has never played with an elite passer, Gary Payton could have been, but he was far to old at the time to be all that effective. It's a lot like Kobe being a shooting guard, but still being the falicitator on those Laker championship squards, as well as being the leading/2nd leading scorer.

It seems like to be, the elite shooting guards that the league has ever seen have developed into good passers, and sort of take over both roles while the point guard turns into a spot up shooter and back up falicitator.


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## BadBaronRudigor (Jul 27, 2006)

Cousy led 3 or 4 of those Boston teams in scoring too (and it wouldn't surprise me if Magic led some of the Laker teams after Kareem started to slip)


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

BadBaronRudigor said:


> Cousy led 3 or 4 of those Boston teams in scoring too (and it wouldn't surprise me if Magic led some of the Laker teams after Kareem started to slip)


Magic led them in scoring from the late 80's to the early 90's until he retired.

Cousy may have led them in scoring, but he did so with God awful percentages, he really wasn't that much of a scorer.


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## BadBaronRudigor (Jul 27, 2006)

I made that point in answer to the idea that a leading scorer can't be a PG because he shoots too much. Cousy's poor shooting percentages only means he took even MORE shots and further weakens the idea that shooting a lot of shots affects whether you are a PG or not. A PG is the guard who brings the ball up and initiates the offense; Wade isn't the primary person for that in Miami where they want the ball in Chalmer's hands to give Wade a bit of rest, West was the primary one in LA at least in the games I have seen.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

It sounds like we're struggling with definitions; clearly, we all know the difference between Michael Jordan and Bob Cousy (both of whom led their team in scoring and assists at various points in their career), but don't know how to formally articulate it.

My question would be this: Is Jerry West more like Michael Jordan or more like Bob Cousy?

Clearly, someone has to carry the ball over the timeline, but if you pair West up with Goodrich (a 'combo' guard himself), somebody has to take the ball across the line. Likewise, if Michael doesn't have Scottie and is paired up with Paxson, he might assume the duty of carrying the ball up against pressure.

The role of the player varies with team composition, so do we classify these multi-talented guards based predominantly on what duties they performed for their teams throughout their career or is there another standard?

I've always used something more akin to statistical matching, wherein a player's overall statistical profile determines "what he is" as much or perhaps more than his actual role does. Even without this as a formal process, I think most of us just use our appraisal of a player's game to assess their 'natural' position.

So, a player like West who averaged 30 points and 7 assists is considered more of a shooting guard since his scoring numbers are so exceptional while the assists are merely very good.***

Is this standard fair or flawed? Probably a bit of both, but consider the alternative: during the second half of the 88-89 season, Michael Jordan took over duties as the team's PG, averaging 30 points and 10 assists with 4 turnovers per game.

Considering everything we know about Michael's game (and his career up to that point), had his tenure at point persisted for longer, to the point where he played more of his prime seasons as the team 'PG', would we then be debating him as the game's greatest PG of all time? His case for GOAT would surely encounter *much* fiercer competition at point guard than at shooting guard and we would be ignoring his actual _game_ to the point of near absurdity.

In truth, Michael was not a classical shooting guard, but more of a hybrid: a small forward on offense who usually guarded the team's opposing shooting guard on defense. That he could move over to the point guard position and put up near Big O numbers only complicates matters. But in the end, despite his unique role on offense, the consensus is that Michael Jordan was a shooting guard.

Could we be doing something similar with Jerry West? Was he the de facto point guard on a team with no real point guard while in reality the greatest shooting guard of his era?

***Note that later in his career, West's assist numbers climbed even higher, suggesting that his role changed along with the team's composition or style of play.


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## T-Mac (Dec 22, 2008)

I've always been impressed when I've seen highlights and full game downloads, he's a fundamentally sound player on both ends of the floor, and his ability to create space and get off a good shot is unmatched (excluding Jordan/Kobe etc). He had underrated and athleticism which allowed him to stay in front of his man. Not to mention his final year in the NBA where he was injured throughout and far past his prime, the first year they recorded blocks/steals, he averaged nearly 3 steals per game and 1 block per game. Imagine how that would be in his prime? Stats adjusted for pace would likely put him at roughly the same spot though (in the modern era)-- around 2.7 steals and 1.1 blocks per game, which would indicate he's an elite weakside defender as well.

And boy was a he a big game performer. Great, great player.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Nice assessment of West - especially if just gleaned from some clips!

As a side note, along with the more common comparisons to Wilt and Dr. J, a very young Jordan's game was compared to that of Jerry West. I always thought that was the highest compliment to young MJ's game and you can really see it with the way West, as you put it, can create space or effortlessly pull up while on the move.


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## Fraulien (May 26, 2015)

I followed West throughout his career....becoming aware of him in 1965. He was definitely a shooting guard for the vast majority of his career. He took over a combination position only later in his career when Gail Goodrich came to the Lakers. Goodrich was a scorer also (although not in West's league when West was younger). West was flexible enough to do more of the point guard stuff but they did not really have a "true"point guard the year they won 33 in a row. West was always listed as being 6 feet 3 inches in height but the story has been told many times that when he was measured when he first came to the Lakers that his wing span was that of a person at least 6 feet 7 or taller. He had remarkably quick hands and a very quick jump shot and was a great scorer and a superb defender. It has been said that he would have led the league in steals multiple years if they had been keeping that category for his entire career. I also understand that he was second in MVP voting on multiple occasions. He could not drive like Kobe....but he was a much better outside shooter and if they had had a three point line then he would have scored much more than the did. I think his overall attitude may have made him a better player than Kobe. As Bill Simmons said in his book on basketball....all of West's teammates considered him a team player and he got along with virtually everyone. When asked to play a point guard later in his career he was more than ready to do so if it would help get a championship....and it did. He even got along with Wilt....which must have been a challenge. If he is not the 2nd best point guard of all time...then he would be 3rd behind Kobe...but..he might be second.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Prime Jerry West:
The best comparison would be Klay Thompson or young Joe Johnson.


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## Fraulien (May 26, 2015)

I don't know. Klay Thompson seems like a good player but West was either the best or the second best guard of his era (depending on how you view Oscar Robertson). I don't think Thompson will be that. He was also a very complete player. Although he did not drive the ball as well as Kobe...he did have a really good drive because he was just so quick. He was also an excellent playmaker. His overall style would be closer to Jordan than to Thompson in my opinion.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

don't mind mr scientist

meanwhile I'm reading Terry Pluto's Tall Tales which is about the NBA in the 50s and 60s and here are some interesting tidbits:

West played forward as a senior in college averaging 17 rpg



> Rod Thorn: Back then you were allowed to block shots after the ball hit the backboard. Jerry would wait until a guy shot a layup off the board, then he'd jump up and swat it away. Now that's goal tending. Then it showed you what a great leaper he was, even though he was a little over 6 foot tall and rail thin





> John Havlicek: Red used to say that you don't judge a player by only his height, you need to consider the length of his arms. Jerry had something like a 39 inch sleeve. He was 6'2" but had the arms of a man 6'7". That made him so tough when he guarded you. He could use those long arms to poke away your dribble, I mean he could really pick your pocket





> Lenny Wilkens: I wish they had kept track of steals when Jerry and I played because we would have been the league leaders. He had hands that were as quick as a snake's tongue


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## keenan (May 26, 2015)

They must have been excellent for his / her age. In the event that this individual played today however become when compared to Chris Quinn.


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## Fraulien (May 26, 2015)

Nice quotes!


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

i would say picture steph curry on offense and tony allen on defense and you have jerry west.


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