# Idea: Bargnani for Team Captan



## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

... my crazy idea. it doesn't make sense on so many levels- and maybe that's why it does imo. have to think outside of the box sometimes.

we've been feeding excuses to andrea since he entered the league. remember the argument for his mouth being open all the time? i mean, he went *under the knife* to 'correct' that. and what happened? i don't know if his nasal passage is any clearer today, it could very well be, but his mouth hangs open now as much as ever. 

the excuses have been overwhelming to me. we honestly forced him into surgery and recovery to facilitate our own denial. smh. 

then before this summer, he somehow became untradeable? on what basis, may i ask? what has he done? should that exclusive treatment not be reserved for the cream of the crop, the outstanding of the outstanding, the absolutely irreplaceable? like, what are we taking about here?

keep in mind: i'm not saying he's worthless. i'm not saying that at all. all i'm saying is that he's not untradeable. why does it have to be one extreme or the other? to me, that's the sign of a major problem right there. we're just making that connection ourselves (not untradeable = worthless?), arguably because we might already feel that way behind our denial. if i said kobe bryant wasn't untradeable, for example, i don't think anyone would say, "so you think he's worthless?!?!"

anyway, so now we've lost our franchise player, perhaps indirectly linked to our refusal to trade bargnani years ago for parts that could have helped the cause. in other words, in my world we effectively picked andrea bargnani over chris bosh- it didn't _really_ happen like that... but it sort of did. it was a decision made over time.

and where are we today? how much further along is our italian golden boy? some would argue not much at all. yes, he has all the talent in the world- but that's nothing new. he's always had that. but in terms of applying it in game situations, aha!, his struggles are similar to what they've always been imo.

what's more, as was mentioned in another thread days ago, he is as socially inept as ever. even emotionally. and he's boring as hell to watch.  that's not to say he isn't burning up inside, only to point out that he's making a staunch effort not to show it. and that alone is a problem. his focus is on the wrong target. 

i can't believe i'm about to write this but, yes, four years into his career, we're still trying to break the ice with this man. not only is he not involved with the young gunz or anything that's going on around the team right now (he isn't even being mentioned by anyone around the league- we just lost chris bosh and we don't even talk about the guy who may be most affected by it all?!?!), he is not involved on the court either. you'd be hard-pressed to find anywhere that he _is_ involved. again, we need an icebreaker.

= captain.

this is ludicrous and that's exactly why i would consider it. it's a decision made to take him out of his comfort zone- because we've compiled all the evidence in the world (four years worth) to prove that having him stay in his comfort zone is not effective. force him into the role of emotional leader, force him to take guys under his wing- put them on his back- force him to speak up.

force _him_ to break the ice.

sure, it might not work- perhaps it'd be a disaster. a total train wreck. but how much worse would that be than what we've already seen and are seeing now? it's already a train wreck. it's already a disaster. we just lost our franchise player and we're still praying to the high heavens for andrea bargnani's 'development'. which is funny, considering this player's skills have been developed for years. we're not waiting for *development*, necessarily; in fairness, i think we're waiting for him to have a epiphany. 

and those are very different things- and should come with very different plans. if i'm right and that's what we're waiting/hoping for, especially after four seasons already, it's come time to force the issue. there's nothing to lose because nearly everything has just been lost.

*andrea bargnani for team captain.* 

he'll be our dr. drea for the young gunz.

peace


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

thats one of the things he needs to do is step into that leadershop position that has opened up with bosh's departure, i feel like Andrew Bogut did that in Milwaukee last year in redds absence and it helped andrew breakout and helped the team breakout..bargnani should embrace this oppurtunity since you really dont have a leader on your roster that jumps out


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Maybe if he could speak proper english this would be a good idea. Jack gets my vote


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Jarret Jack 4 captian


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Andrea for captain would not be a good idea imo. Sure it might help his development as a player but for the Raptors as a whole it's way too risky. We finally got rid of a soft mannered leader in Bosh and the last thing we need is another laid back character in Bargnani. This is the chance for the team to take on another culture and another identity and Bargnani just brings too much of the old stuff back to our young guys.

Jack is my pick. He is competitive, he has swagger, and most importantly he is a true professional.


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## Raptor (Feb 26, 2004)

Captan Jack


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Jack. 

Somebody needs to be in Andreas ear.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

ballocks said:


> ... my crazy idea. it doesn't make sense on so many levels- and maybe that's why it does imo. have to think outside of the box sometimes.
> 
> we've been feeding excuses to andrea since he entered the league. remember the argument for his mouth being open all the time? i mean, he went *under the knife* to 'correct' that. and what happened? i don't know if his nasal passage is any clearer today, it could very well be, but his mouth hangs open now as much as ever.
> 
> ...


+1

Jarrett Jack can still be a vocal leader on the team but making Dre captain would be a big vote of confidence in the lad that could be transformational for the team. If all those personality tests he took are any indication he is ripe for more responsibility and is more than capable of handling it.

He's our most talented player and right now seems to be a lock to be with the team for the next four or five years so it makes sense.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

^

If your plan came to fruition who would get on Andrea when he zones out and starts standing around on the perimeter looking disinterested? 

You'll say Jack. But then doesn't that make Jack the true leader and Bargs would realise he was given a fake title? ... 

I agree Andrea is our most talented player but I think the role of Vice-Captain would be more suited to his game. You can't expect him to go from silent stander to captain material over a summer (a summer he doesn't even seem to be involved in)


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Porn_Player said:


> ^*
> 
> If your plan came to fruition who would get on Andrea when he zones out and starts standing around on the perimeter looking disinterested? *
> 
> ...


He's done everything he's been asked to do so far from playing out of position to developing his body, etc.. He's ready.

The idea is that putting him in a leadership role would force him to stay focused.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

speedythief said:


> The idea is that putting him in a leadership role would force him to stay focused.


This is where the benefits would stop. He would do nothing to help his team gel on court. I understand you want to get the best out of our most skilled player, I just don't believe it is worth risking team morale/play. 

The 'Young Gunz' haven't mentioned Bargnani once this summer. In fact has anyone in the organisation? Does anybody know what Andrea is up to? ... 

Give him some authority yes, he will earn respect through his play. Do not try and make him the leader of a young team, he simply won't be able to do a good job.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Porn_Player said:


> This is where the benefits would stop. He would do nothing to help his team gel on court. I understand you want to get the best out of our most skilled player, I just don't believe it is worth risking team morale/play.
> 
> The 'Young Gunz' haven't mentioned Bargnani once this summer. In fact has anyone in the organisation? Does anybody know what Andrea is up to? ...
> 
> Give him some authority yes, he will earn respect through his play. Do not try and make him the leader of a young team, he simply won't be able to do a good job.


You know that how?


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

I've watched him for four years not show an ounce of leadership.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Porn_Player said:


> I've watched him for four years not show an ounce of leadership.


Now's the time.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

But the skills needed won't miraculously just develop. Give Jack captaincy, he earned it last year and let him take Andrea under his wing and show him whats needed.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Porn_Player said:


> But the skills needed won't miraculously just develop. Give Jack captaincy, he earned it last year and let him take Andrea under his wing and show him whats needed.


Nah I think he's up for it. Leadership isn't that complicated.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

listen, i think it's worth trying. some of you may be right and he may suck as a leader- even totally suck- but what's the difference to what we're seeing now? at least we'll know. at least we'll be more comfortable to move him, and stop making our decisions of today based on a future that will never come. 

jarrett jack is absolutely a better fit based on what we know right now! i completely agree. you'd have to be blind to not see that. but how would that help the raptors? he'd be a conventional leader on, in all likelihood, a lotto team. we'd be neither here nor there. what exactly would we be preserving? why play it safe?

at least with andrea, imo, there might be some payoff. some upside. we might get him to start producing like he can/like he should, to start re-inventing himself, to start believing in himself- to start holding himself accountable- and delivering on the court.

you're all right in that it probably won't work. but what's the use in not trying? now's the time for it. let's see what kind of hand we were dealt. we can't go forward unless we turn over our cards. blind faith won't cut it anymore. 

peace


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

Ya, great idea, lets see if it happens.
:uhoh:


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

ballocks said:


> listen, i think it's worth trying. some of you may be right and he may suck as a leader- even totally suck- but what's the difference to what we're seeing now? at least we'll know. at least we'll be more comfortable to move him, and stop making our decisions of today based on a future that will never come.
> 
> jarrett jack is absolutely a better fit based on what we know right now! i completely agree. you'd have to be blind to not see that. but how would that help the raptors? he'd be a conventional leader on, in all likelihood, a lotto team. we'd be neither here nor there. what exactly would we be preserving? why play it safe?
> 
> ...


What if the move gets JJ's back up? He knows he played his heart out last year and to not reward him with anything may just irk him into not caring. 

What if the 'Young Gunz' don't take to Andrea and his style? They are young and could easily turn against him, not only slowing down their development but also making them want out of Toronto. 

What if Andrea stays the same old passive dude? His stock would drop because everyone would know he had reached his ceiling. 

I'm all for trying new things but until Andrea does something to merit the captaincy of this franchise he in no way deserves it.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

Porn_Player said:


> What if the move gets JJ's back up? He knows he played his heart out last year and to not reward him with anything may just irk him into not caring.


if he's that sensitive, imo, he's not worth having on the team. straight up. this is professional basketball. if your ego is that sensitive that you threaten to revolt after not being named 'captain' for a team that's in shambles, you are not cut out for this job. 



> What if the 'Young Gunz' don't take to Andrea and his style? They are young and could easily turn against him, not only slowing down their development but also making them want out of Toronto.


that's a fair point, imo. but it can't be both- you can't say that you're building around bargnani and then defer to demar/sonny/amir for all the important issues. either he is or he isn't. and even then, D/S/A are entering their second season as raptors. bargnani's entering his fifth. imo, they know they don't have a foot to stand on in this discussion. what's more, yes, they might want out of toronto if they don't like his 'style'- or they might want to stay after he breaks out of his shell and starts producing more significantly, which was the point of the exercise in the first place. 



> What if Andrea stays the same old passive dude? His stock would drop because everyone would know he had reached his ceiling.


another good point. at least we would know. seriously. at least we would have that. we've made so many odd decisions on his account for four years, i'm tired of them more than i'm tired of anything else. "mr. potential" is not worth mortgaging your house over- we need to stop with the insanity. let's see what we have. and if it sucks, hey, more power to us- at least we know. 

because quite frankly, i think we're the only team in the league that still sees him as a key building block. he gets mocked in every conversation i hear. he gets treated like a rich man's darko. we need to find out if he is or he isn't. we need to do this as much for our sake- so that we can change our direction accordingly if need be- as for his.

enough talk about potential and the future. you don't get better 'tomorrow'; you get better _today_. tomorrow never comes. we either need to start seeing it or we need to get off the bus. stop wasting time, imo... and stop hurting our future in the process.



> I'm all for trying new things but until Andrea does something to merit the captaincy of this franchise he in no way deserves it.


honestly, there's not a player left on this team that 'deserves' it. that's the hard truth. and that's the only reason i'm suggesting it.

peace


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

I'd love for you to be correct and for Andrea to flourish so I'll leave this here and concentrate on crossing my fingers instead.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Half the time Andrea Bargnani looks like he has no idea where he is. He never shows any passion. Can you honestly imagine Bargs standing up infront of the locker room and giving the team a motivational speech? Not a ****ing chance. Sure not every captain needs that quality to be one, I'm just saying he seems like an awkward guy and someone that would be hard to respect as a Captain. Jack for captain all the way.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

Knick_Killer31 said:


> Half the time Andrea Bargnani looks like he has no idea where he is. He never shows any passion. Can you honestly imagine Bargs standing up infront of the locker room and giving the team a motivational speech? Not a ****ing chance.


dude, i agree with you. that's exactly why i suggest you do it. he never shows any passion- whether he's a roleplayer or a leader or anything. we need to change that. sticking with what we've been doing has not yielded any results. it's time to try something else. 

it's actually einstein's definition of insanity:

*doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.*

we need to make a serious change with bargnani or he's always going to be the same passionless, boring guy we've come to know. the one thing we haven't tried is captain. now's the time if ever, imo. 

peace


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

ballocks said:


> listen, i think it's worth trying. some of you may be right and he may suck as a leader- even totally suck- but what's the difference to what we're seeing now? at least we'll know. at least we'll be more comfortable to move him, and stop making our decisions of today based on a future that will never come.


I don't know about you guys but I'm extremely comfortable about moving him right now, today. It's been 5 years man, FIVE YEARS. We've done more for Andrea than any team for their underachieving star in recent memory, it's got to stop somewhere. The urgency needs to come from Andrea, not from guys above. If he comes into camp and demands to be the captain of the team, then perhaps we give him a shot. No more force feeding him opportunities because we could offer that to other players. If we're going to try things by ways of giving Andrea things that he doesn't have to work for, how about adding another 5 mil/year to his contract? I'm sure nobody has ever tried that before, perhaps THAT'LL WORK.

Notice how Jack came out after Bosh left and told everyone that he's ready to take on the captain role. Notice how guys like Ed Davis and Amir Johnson expressed excitement for increased playing time and role because of Bosh's departure. We haven't seen a thing from Bargnani. It's almost like he's scared that people would be watching him more closely now that CB isn't around. It's almost like he lost another excuse for not rebounding the ball because the guy that supposedly sucked up all the rebounds is now gone. I'm sorry, I just don't have anymore expectation in the guy. Raptor fans have been praising him over the years for every good that he's done and given him excuses for every shortcoming that he's had. It's enough.

Notice how BC haven't said a word about building around Bargnani, it's obvious that the Raptors haven't made that commitment and rightly so. If Bargnani wants to be a great player in the league, he needs to take the initiative and perform. Demand the ball when the game is on the line and lead by example through hardwork and hustle. Get to the line 8-10 times a game and show that he's willing to take the punishment in order to win. Show that he is willing to fill the void that Bosh left us. 

Before Bargnani do any of that it's best that we leave him as much uncertainty as possible. Have him look over his shoulder for Ed Davis and let him watch BC's expression to see if he's getting traded.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Apparently BC was talking up Bargs big time in an interview with Rick Kamla at summer league. Says he will easily be a 20ppg guy and this is his chance to shine.

Also said that most calls inquire about Bargs and teams want him. If someone has a recap, great, otherwise I will try to find one to copy and paste here.

I dont' think you can create an alpha dog.  Its too late for that with him. Its not his nature and he is too old for such a major shift in his belief system.

The old caliper test failed this one. His lack of passion and competitive fire were misdiagnosed as the icy demeanor of an assassin. Just isn't so.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

You cant really train a guy to be a leader...its a personality trait.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

forget all this... sonny weems and derozan for co-captains. they are the future of this team. i'm not sure what bargnani is but down the road he will not be more valueable than weems and derozan.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

First of all Jose Calderon is still on the roster, so there is your captain right there. 

AS for people who continue to crap on Andrea what is up with that? I know people have super high expectations for him because of where he was drafted, but the guy has been decent and improving. We have a young 7 footer who has increased both his scoring and rebounding numbers every year he has been in the league. His shot blocking and field goal percentage were both at career highs last season, and his personal fouls and turnovers dropped. 

Now I am not saying Bargs will be an all NBA first team guy, but to say lets get rid of him is pure crap. We watched Bosh for years not being able to intimidate anyone on defense, block barley 1 shot per game in 37 minutes of action and miss a dozen or so games a year. I have said it in the past that Bosh was not a superstar, he thought he was, but he is not. He is an allstar and a good palyer, but not a guy that will take a team on its own....now neither is Andrea, but we know that and will build with him, not around him. I am looking forward to this season and seeing what Andrea does without a big ego beside him, if he regresses, I am on the side of looking in a new direction, if he puts up 19, 8, and 2, well then I say lets keep going with the big Italian.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

c_dog said:


> forget all this... sonny weems and derozan for co-captains. they are the future of this team. i'm not sure what bargnani is but down the road he will not be more valueable than weems and derozan.


Sonny Weems? Come on now..


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Knick_Killer31 said:


> Sonny Weems? Come on now..


at least with them leading the summer league team the raps went undefeated. the summer league team could arguably beat the regular season team just because they don't have andrea bargnani.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

c_dog said:


> at least with them leading the summer league team the raps went undefeated. the *summer league team could arguably beat the regular season team just because they don't have andrea bargnani*.


:mrt:


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

c_dog strikes again!


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

so sometimes i take my "andrea hate" to the extreme, but i honestly think andrea is causing detriment to the team when he plays. you're basically rebounding one bigman short and i just hate his attitude. where is his competitive drive?

i'm done waiting for andrea, been done for 3 seasons. please get rid of him. some time down the road all you guys are going to realize i've been right all along.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i have more hope for bargnani than most. at the same time, i don't think he helps the team like _this_. if we're going to give up and just accept him for the player he is today, i think that'd be a major mistake and i'd rather gut the team. he needs to get better. we can't afford for him not to. imo, he is an enormous liability on the floor right now- not in terms of skill, but more in terms of emotion. nobody wants to play with him, nobody seems to enjoy playing with him, nobody has any trouble playing against him.

basketball is an emotional game. sports are an emotional endeavor.

i think he needs to be challenged- but more importantly, i don't think we have a choice anymore. he needs to become that superstar, that leader- whether we think he can or he can't is immaterial because if he can't, there's no use in i) having him around anymore; and ii) making our team's decisions to fit his game.

we need to start seeing it now. and if it can't be seen and there's no hope, we need to find out as soon as possible so we can change direction.

this problem will not solve itself. a move has to be made- whether to wake him up or ship him out.

peace


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Journalists finally caught up with Bargs... 



> Raptors forward Andrea Bargnani was the team's second option last season, but figures to have a more prominent role with Chris Bosh gone.
> 
> "For sure he leaves a big hole because he's a very good player. We're going to miss him because he's an All-Star," Bargnani told HoopsHype.
> 
> ...


The Link doesn't add anything but here you go anyways..Link


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Actually found a better interview. I'll make a new thread.


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