# Bosh - “I don’t care about the numbers,"



## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

> “I don’t care about numbers,” Bosh said. “The only number I care about is winning. You can have great games, you can have great numbers and be at the bottom of the totem pole as far as the league is concerned. I think I can speak for that, too. I’ve experienced it. You can do everything you want, you can average the best numbers, but if you don’t win it really doesn’t matter.”


Take it how you want. Sounds like a cop out to me.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

I don't know. What he's saying makes sense, winning is more important than numbers. If he wins a ring and goes on to be an integral part of the dynasty in Miami, he'll be remembered as one of the greats over time. If he had stayed at Toronto and put up pretty numbers that had no base because he never took them anywhere important, he would have remained a Top 10 candidate during his career but once he was gone, he'd be forgotten to the annals of mediocrity. 

On another note, I'm still baffled as to how he's not managing to get his.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

What he's saying is correct, but it's coming across as he thinks he's doing good stuff outside the box-score, and whichever way you look at it, at the moment he isn't.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

That team isn't going to do much in the playoffs unless he finds a role. They've got Lebron and Wade, but if he's not going to make a significant contribution they're not a legitimate contender. Right now it doesn't matter if he's having trouble figuring out where he fits, but when next spring rolls around they're going to need him to pull his weight.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

another 1 rebound night last night - I dont expect him to score the way he did in the past but when his team is being outrebounded and he has one board and David West is eating his lunch and Emeka Okafor is looking like Bob Lanier inside there is a problem


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

You can't win if you don't rebound the damn ball.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

Diable said:


> That team isn't going to do much in the playoffs unless he finds a role. They've got Lebron and Wade, but if he's not going to make a significant contribution they're not a legitimate contender. Right now it doesn't matter if he's having trouble figuring out where he fits, but when next spring rolls around they're going to need him to pull his weight.


Yep I agree. Bosh seems to be the X-Factor for them. Everyone knew that the coaching would be questioned and that the role players were going to need to play well for them to win a championship but people didn't really think CB4 would struggle like this. He really needs to figure out his role for this team if they expect to do well in the playoffs.


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

Diable said:


> That team isn't going to do much in the playoffs unless he finds a role. They've got Lebron and Wade, but if he's not going to make a significant contribution they're not a legitimate contender. Right now it doesn't matter if he's having trouble figuring out where he fits, but when next spring rolls around they're going to need him to pull his weight.


Exactly.

I mean winning is definitely more important then numbers but when you grab only 1 rebound the whole night and your team loses that's not pulling your own weight. That's why i said it sounded like a cop out, not to mention Okafor had a huge game.


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## S.jR. (May 18, 2010)

Yea, if he's not scoring that's ok if he's rebounding and blocking shots. Since he isn't it just sounds like an excuse. It's a long season though, we'll see how the work things out. 

BTW I'm so glad I didn't draft him, especially as high as I saw him going/rated.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

The weird thing is he looked a lot better in preseason. In so much as he looked confident and like he knew what he was doing.

His problem right now is that he's not putting in work. He's not rebounding. Not running the floor. Not really scoring. He's just kind of there.

His role should be the same as Haslem. He needs to watch what Haslem does and do that. There is no excuse--NONE--for Chris Bosh to have one let alone TWO 1 rebound games.

I know a lot of people hate him and think he sucks...is soft...whatever. But 1 rebound? C'mon. You'd have to actively be trying not to rebound to do that at his size and and athleticism.

The only thing he's doing wellish right now is defensive rotations. But last night he didn't even do that.

Spoelstra should consider benching him and having him as a sixth man or something.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Bosh should be seriously considered as trade bait if he keeps up the Rashard Lewis/Antawn Jamison impression but he probably wouldn't be traded unless the Heat fall really short of reaching the Finals. However I can only imagine his lack of toughness and self respect will only further be exposed in the playoffs especially against playoff veterans in KG, Dwight, Odom, Gasol, etc.

This post basically sums up my thoughts on Bosh so far....



> I cant believe this guy put up the numbers he did in Toronto... people should really use this guy as a case study if theyre in an argument for stats being over rated. He really is pathetic...he is unbelievably soft. He posts up with his back to the basket... but as soon as the defender gives him a little nudge or an elbow in the back he just pussies away and runs out to the three point line to take the pass then either takes a long jumper or just drives middle and flails backwards and puts up a weak runner at the rim.
> 
> I have to admit... i never really watched any of his games live when he was in Toronto because of the lack of tv exposure... but i really though he was a top 15 guy in the NBA based on the numbers he put up and the mix of size and skill etc... But after watching him in 6 games with the Miami Heat.. i dont think they have enough to beat Boston and definately not the Lakers with their size... its only 6 games but i think its probly enough.
> 
> Another thing... im really surprised that he averaged so many free throws in Toronto.. being that he is so soft and shies away from contact - my feeling is that he got a lot of superstar calls being that he was the 'superstar' of his team so the refs gave him that respect... now that he is often the 5th or 6th best player on the floor he isnt getting those calls. When i think of guys like Stoudemire and Boozer who who i always rated BELOW Bosh (same category/level of player though).. i still think of those guys as big men who dont mind the contact in that they will take it strong to the rim even if there is a big man waiting to challenge theiur shot or dish out some physical play.. more so Stoudemire. They obviously have similar flaws in their game in that they dont play any defense and dont have a true back to the basket game.. but at least you know they will man up and not shy away from physical play.


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

In preseason, Wade and Lebron were hurt - so they made an extra attempt to get him the ball b/c they had to, so he looked fine. But with Lebron and Wade dominating the ball as they are now, he's going to have to focus more on the dirty work. But they should work him into the offense more, use him in pick and pops, etc.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

I think Bosh will be fine in the long run, they want him to be the "KG" of this team, but he has never played like that before. He has to completely reinvent himself, and that will take time.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Loss because of one rebound in 34 minutes

As a PF, you need to rebound.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

He needs to understand,

He is the best PF if he can have 18 rebounds a game.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

The Heat are not going to trade Bosh or use him as trade bait.

Although, as an aside, that would just be the most gangster **** ever if Bosh just doesn't cut it and Pat Riley trades him off, considering the fact that Bosh probably worked harder than any of the big three (even Wade) to get everybody in Miami.

It should happen just for the sake of humor.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

Stoudemire has always been better than Bosh. He's struggling so far this year, but he's still much better. James and Stoudemire pick and rolls would be devastating.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Pay Ton said:


> The Heat are not going to trade Bosh or use him as trade bait.
> 
> Although, as an aside, that would just be the most gangster **** ever if Bosh just doesn't cut it and Pat Riley trades him off, considering the fact that Bosh probably worked harder than any of the big three (even Wade) to get everybody in Miami.
> 
> It should happen just for the sake of humor.


Start the rumor now - Bosh for Melo


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

So what is this 4 threads in 7 days


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Dre™ said:


> So what is this 4 threads in 7 days


Bosh said he wanted more attention :devil2:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Hibachi! said:


> You can't win if you don't rebound the damn ball.


That's not their problem though. They think they are the new Suns hoisting up 3's like crazy.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Pay Ton said:


> The Heat are not going to trade Bosh or use him as trade bait.
> 
> Although, as an aside, that would just be the most gangster **** ever if Bosh just doesn't cut it and Pat Riley trades him off, considering the fact that Bosh probably worked harder than any of the big three (even Wade) to get everybody in Miami.
> 
> It should happen just for the sake of humor.


It would be funnier still if they accommodated Bosh by trading the Dead president back to Cleveland. :bsmile:


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Porn_Player said:


> I don't know. What he's saying makes sense, winning is more important than numbers. If he wins a ring and goes on to be an integral part of the dynasty in Miami, he'll be remembered as one of the greats over time. If he had stayed at Toronto and put up pretty numbers that had no base because he never took them anywhere important, he would have remained a Top 10 candidate during his career but once he was gone, he'd be forgotten to the annals of mediocrity.
> 
> On another note, I'm still baffled as to how he's not managing to get his.


But they'd be winning more if he could produce - NUMBERS


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## Maravilla (Jul 6, 2010)

What are you talking about... Bosh is a WIN method player. You just wont see it until after the season.


Seriously though... he needs to step his game up on the inside. Him shooting numbers and only running pick and pops is not helping his team.. its just crowding things even more for the limited number of shooters on the team.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Miami trading Bosh would be hilarious. How about shipping his arse back to Toronto for Bargnani + Calderon? (Bosh = $14.5, Bargs + Calderon = $17.5, so Miami would need some cap fillers, e.g., Chalmers, maybe another).

How good would a lineup of Calderon, Wade, James, Haslem, and Bargnani be? 

IMO, quite a bit better than their current starting lineup. This adds two legit 3-pt gunners to supplement Wade and James' slashing, and Haslem is back where he should be.

Neither team would do this of course, just funny to think about.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Calderon may be the worst defensive PG in the known universe. He's the antithesis of what Miami needs. Banks & Bargage would probably work out for Miami though.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

It is too bad they couldn't con Chicago for Hinrich last summer. He would be the ideal fit for them at PG.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

I never saw bosh as some sort of superstar player, I assumed he was a good PF putting up the numbers on some crap toronto teams and thus the nice stats. His role on the heat team is somewhat outside what hes been doing for 6 years, so things are gonna take some time. theres also the chance that his role never gets defined and he becomes completely expendable. From the get go, Ive considered this new team two superstars and a decent big. Things are going to get exposed time to time because there is flaws in their roster, but a flawed team with as much talent as they have can still win a title.


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

*So what do you guys think? Will Bosh change his game and improve to fit in with this team or should Miami trade him if he's doing the same **** by Jan?*


It's clear though that even the media had never really seen Bosh play much outside highlights. Cause this is how he always played, he was just the first option.


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## BeeGee (Jul 9, 2010)

I thought this guy made it clear that he simply wanted to be on TV above all else, lol.


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

BeeGee said:


> I thought this guy made it clear that he simply wanted to be on TV above all else, lol.


Hahaha


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

So if he said "I need more touches for bigger numbers", youw would all rip him.

He says "I don't care about the numbers", and you rip him for "making excuses."

Wade & LeBron take less money to play together, people rip them.
Athletes go for the money on a losing team, people rip them.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

I think Bosh knows he's the third option behind Wade and Lebron in which is why he's saying he don't care about numbers. But damn only 1 rebound last night? Disgracful by Bosh. Bosh needs to lift weights in a huge way cause he look like he lose alot of weight from last year.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> Start the rumor now - Bosh for Melo





E.H. Munro said:


> It would be funnier still if they accommodated Bosh by trading the Dead president back to Cleveland.





yodurk said:


> Miami trading Bosh would be hilarious. How about shipping his arse back to Toronto for Bargnani + Calderon? (Bosh = $14.5, Bargs + Calderon = $17.5, so Miami would need some cap fillers, e.g., Chalmers, maybe another).
> 
> How good would a lineup of Calderon, Wade, James, Haslem, and Bargnani be?
> 
> ...


See that's why this Bosh trade needs to happen just for comedy's sake.

Whatever destination you suggest for him ends up being pure comedy. These are all classic.

I mean, if Miami traded him away, I probably couldn't help myself but cheer for them to win it all. It would be too good.

Bosh would probably go all Mo Williams on us.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Good because you sure aren't putting up any numbers.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

He's gonna have a problem though when he doesn't make the all-star team.


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

HKF said:


> He's gonna have a problem though when he doesn't make the all-star team.


Rofl, didn't even think about that. Think the "hype" behind the big 3 is enough to get him in alone? Stat wise he's definitely no allstar and i don't know if he's popular enough to play below average and still get in like past allstars (A.I., Grant Hill, VC, KG ect.).


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

Its also going to be a tough pill to swallow realizing your team can win just fine without you, considering he hasnt done jack **** in the couple meaningful games that the heat have played against legit competition. Even after he gets it all together I still wonder how many players could have put up similar contributions to the heat for a much smaller salary.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Noyze said:


> Take it how you want. Sounds like a cop out to me.


Glad Bosh doesn't care about numbers because he ain't gettin' 'em.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

BeeGee said:


> I thought this guy made it clear that he simply wanted to be on TV above all else, lol.


Trade him to Mad Men for Don Draper.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

I bet Draper could get more than 1 rebound in a game.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

-33- said:


> So if he said "I need more touches for bigger numbers", youw would all rip him.
> 
> He says "I don't care about the numbers", and you rip him for "making excuses."
> 
> ...


Yes we are ripping him because he's playing pathetic... he would've been better off not saying anything at all or saying he needs to step up. His numbers are pathetic which is why when he comes out saying "I don't care about numbers" just seems like an excuse.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Bosh needs to find a way to positively impact the game. When Kendrick Perkins says he doesn't care about numbers, it makes sense. When Bosh says it, you think, what is he doing to affect the game if not scoring his 15-25 points and grabbing his 8-12 rebounds? 

I think Bosh may need to renege on this whole unselfish "not about numbers" approach and go the other way. Try to get buckets. Try to grab every board. Aim for 30 and 15 every night. Be a threat. That kind of confidence seems to help his game all-around.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

ha, and ppl were ripping me for predicting 16/8 on the season. i think he can get up to 16ppg but he really needs to step up with the rebounding.

i'm glad he's gone. i've been saying for 2 years that he's a pseudo-star. raptors needed a fan base to sell tickets, that's why they featured chris bosh as their superstar. his game was never up to par with his reputation. he is a jumpshooter, not a post player. the only time he scores in the paint is with layups, which he either misses or gets called for the foul. i've always said aldridge is a much much better scorer than bosh. same range, but with legit inside scoring moves.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

They need him to rebound and defend, but defense and rebounding are about toughness and desire above anything else. So that's a problem.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

i've been calling him overrated for years. i could be wrong though, and maybe he'll tear it up within the coming months. but i doubt it.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I admit I was wrong about Bosh's numbers but I believe it has more to do with a lot of Heat games being blow outs. Heat has only played 1 close game thus far out of 7 and if this continues to be the trend the big 3 will all take significant hits to their numbers.

While the end result is the same I don't know if you can chalk that up as guys sacrificing their stats for victories. Frankly there just aren't many teams out there that requires all 3 of them to go all out like they all did last year when they had to carry teams.

The Heat will be scary come playoff time though. I can only imagine what will happen when Lebron/Wade/Bosh are able to turn it up a notch when they don't have to suffer the grind of the regular season.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

forget about the blowouts.. just look at his minutes. through 5 games, he's played 5 minutes less and is scoring 7 points less. also 4 less rebounds.

7 points and 4 rebounds in 5 minutes is a lot. 

i think his numbers will pick up, but he won't average more than 15 ppg.

above all, it seems like he is having a marginal impact on his team. i think the heat would still be 5-2 without him. i can't say that about wade or lebron though.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

I'll be exceptionally suprised if he averages 15ppg or less. I'd expect by years end he'll be at or near 17.5-18 per game. Rebounds might not get up to 10, but atleast 8.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Porn_Player said:


> On another note, I'm still baffled as to how he's not managing to get his.


I thought it was pretty obvious he wouldn't be able to get his. i thought my 16/8 prediction was fairly 'generous'. you thought it was ridiculous though.

wade and lebron demand touches. bosh gets a lot less usage on offense. the rebounding, however, is inexcusable. i think the low ppg was to be expected but even i did not see him averaging 5rpg. that is pathetic. even with lebron, haslem, and wade being great rebounders at their positions/size there is enough rebounds to go around for bosh to get his. if bosh averaged 13/9 instead of 13/5 the heat could be 7-0 right now.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

afobisme said:


> forget about the blowouts.. just look at his minutes. through 5 games, he's played 5 minutes less and is scoring 7 points less. also 4 less rebounds.
> 
> 7 points and 4 rebounds in 5 minutes is a lot.
> 
> ...


The minutes are one thing, but you also have to recognize that theres a difference in the way you play when your team is up by 20 as oppose in a tight game.

I just don't think all 3 of them are playing as hard as they did individually last year. I would think even Bosh's biggest haters wouldn't predict him to average 5 rebounds a game.

I do think that Bosh's numbers will pick up once they start playing tougher opponents. I also don't expect Lebron to average 20 ppg this year as well.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> The minutes are one thing, but *you also have to recognize that theres a difference in the way you play when your team is up by 20 as oppose in a tight game.*
> 
> I just don't think all 3 of them are playing as hard as they did individually last year. I would think even Bosh's biggest haters wouldn't predict him to average 5 rebounds a game.
> 
> I do think that Bosh's numbers will pick up once they start playing tougher opponents. I also don't expect Lebron to average 20 ppg this year as well.


in the loss to NOH bosh posted 15/1. i don't think the "not playing your best when your team is up 20" works because even when the team needs him produce, he simply can't produce. bosh has been a non-factor so far.

i think bosh will pick it up. but it would take some solid effort for him to even match my 16/8 prediction right now.


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

Sample size is too small. At least wait until 20 games or so before calling him a misfit.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> in the loss to NOH bosh posted 15/1. i don't think the "not playing your best when your team is up 20" works because even when the team needs him produce, he simply can't produce. bosh has been a non-factor so far.
> 
> i think bosh will pick it up. but it would take some solid effort for him to even match my 16/8 prediction right now.


He obviously played terrible in that game. I mean do you actually think a 1 rebound game is normal for Bosh? I know you're excited for being right for once, but come on.

I'm not saying that he has been playing great, I'm only saying that in a lot of those games he wasn't playing that hard, neither was Lebron or Wade.

As long as Miami keeps winning I don't really see why the need for this much criticism for any of the big 3. It's not like they're struggling out the gate and it's time to point fingers. They're only going to get better from here on out and once all 3 of them settles into their roles I expect all their numbers to improve. I still expect Lebron to put up 23-25 ppg with 6 rebounds and 7-8 assists by the year is over. He is too good of a player to put up this sort of numbers.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> He obviously played terrible in that game. I mean do you actually think a 1 rebound game is normal for Bosh? I know you're excited for being right for once, but come on.
> 
> I'm not saying that he has been playing great, I'm only saying that in a lot of those games he wasn't playing that hard, neither was Lebron or Wade.
> 
> As long as Miami keeps winning I don't really see why the need for this much criticism for any of the big 3. It's not like they're struggling out the gate and it's time to point fingers. They're only going to get better from here on out and once all 3 of them settles into their roles I expect all their numbers to improve. I still expect Lebron to put up 23-25 ppg with 6 rebounds and 7-8 assists by the year is over. He is too good of a player to put up this sort of numbers.


being right for once? come on. i always said bosh and bargnani were both soft. i also said derozan is a player. i think i was right on all 3 accounts. i've been right many many times on these boards before you even became a regular (grizzlies making their first playoffs, hedo turkoglu being a legit starter--on magic, etc).

what is bosh's excuse for not playing hard? in the 2 losses and the 1 close game he has been a non-factor being absolutely invisible like he has been all season. 1 rebound is not the norm for bosh but he's already had two games with 1 rebound. even then, no, 1 rebound is not the norm, but apparently 5 rebounds is the norm (which is still unacceptable). he has to step it up, no excuses. i'm just glad he is the heat's problem now and not ours.

and I don't see Lebron's stats being much different either. i think he may very well have 22/6/7 or so, which is still very good but may be lower than what people are expecting. in Lebron's case though, it's fine because he's been making things happen. Bosh is not doing anything on the stat sheet and not doing anything on the court. His play has got to be discouraging/disappointing for heat fans. I don't even see why people even bother defending him at this point. 14/5 from him is absolutely disgraceful.


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

I'll give you some props C-dog. You're 16 & 8 sounded crazy to me but it's still early. So far you've been right, but you got alot of help from Bosh. Alot of us didn't expect Bosh to play like a bitch. So he's losing mentally and physically. 



> Heat should be alittle concerned though for a couple reasons.
> 
> 1) *They are vulnerable to great point guards*.
> 
> ...


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> being right for once? come on. i always said bosh and bargnani were both soft. i also said derozan is a player. i think i was right on all 3 accounts. i've been right many many times on these boards before you even became a regular (grizzlies making their first playoffs, hedo turkoglu being a legit starter--on magic, etc).
> 
> what is bosh's excuse for not playing hard? in the 2 losses and the 1 close game he has been a non-factor being absolutely invisible like he has been all season. 1 rebound is not the norm for bosh but he's already had two games with 1 rebound. even then, no, 1 rebound is not the norm, but apparently 5 rebounds is the norm (which is still unacceptable). he has to step it up, no excuses. i'm just glad he is the heat's problem now and not ours.


Well, pad yourself on the back for figuring out that Bargnani isn't a blue-collar player. It's not like people have been complaining about his toughness all these years. I'm still waiting for Sonny Weems and DeRozan to show me that 3pt shot that you've been telling me about.

As for Bosh, why would he need an excuse? That wasn't my point. My point was because 5 of their 7 games have been blowouts not to mention 4 of those games were against bottom feeder teams like Phi/Min/NJ , Bosh along with Lebron and Wade just haven't had to play their hardest in all 5 of their wins.

They've really only had 1 close game thus far and that was against New Orleans. They got blown out in Boston and we're going to see whether that loss means anything when they play again this week. If Miami gets blown out again by Boston then it's time for some criticism. Until then you can make a fair argument for that first game being the result of Wade missing all of preseason and being out of sync.

Like I said, if Miami continues to blow out teams that they're suppose to beat then they're going to coast for more than half of their games being in the Eastern conference. That's not going to be good for their individual stats but to me that's really no reason for criticism.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I think James Jones, and Mike Miller might be more important to this team than Bosh.

Anyways. Right now what's holding the numbers down is their slow pace. If their pace comes up as they get more comfortable, Bosh will score more. But he needs to rebound regardless because there are a lot of rebounds available there with how their defense plays.

They only scored 101 last night and All of the Big three were over 20 with Wade at almost 30.

I thought Lebron made a concertated effort to get Bosh involved tonight as well. When he gets the ball he needs to be agressive like he was with the Raptors. Get to the free throw line.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I don't know what Bosh will get, but what he SHOULD get is 19.5/9 on 55+% shooting.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

jayisthebest88 said:


> Sample size is too small. At least wait until 20 games or so before calling him a misfit.


speaking of small sample size; it was actually 2 one rebound games in 3 nights, or a healthy3.2 rpg average over the last 4 games (including last night's stellar 5 rebound effort)


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i think bosh should be grateful that so many of us are so patient with him. i think when you're being considered a max player and a star you have no excuses not to produce, especially when all your team really needs is some rebounds.

it's true that it's a small sample size, but really, how much can he step up his game? it just looks like bosh is not interested in playing physical and not interested in playing hard. 20/10 seems impossible right now and i'm not really going out on a limb at this point when i say i'll stick with my 16/8 prediction.

i should mention that i think bosh had his best game against orlando getting 11/10. sure he looked far from his "normal" self in that game but he helped his team blow out the magic that game. if he can just rebound the ball better it would lift his team tremendously.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

c_dog said:


> i think bosh should be grateful that so many of us are so patient with him.


Haha. I don't think we're being patient considering it's only 5 games in.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

c_dog said:


> it's true that it's a small sample size, but really, how much can he step up his game?


He stepped up his game last night after people calling him out last night. He can be more agressive with his touches. Be more efficient in his shooting. Be more agressive rebounding the ball off the defensive glass. It would be hard to imagine him playing worse than he's playing right now. And he's already at 15/5. I think 16/8 is still a shade too conservative.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> i think bosh should be grateful that so many of us are so patient with him. i think when you're being considered a max player and a star you have no excuses not to produce, especially when all your team really needs is some rebounds.


Yes, I'm sure the Heat are losing their patience when their team is off to a 5-2 start.

Come back when the Heat are struggling and it's time to start pointing fingers. As long as they're rolling the way they are people can care less about individual numbers.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

And really, even if you want to make an argument that the Heat could be playing better, do you really think that Bosh grabbing a few more rebounds would be more important than Lebron and Wade figuring out how to play off each other? To me that's the key to the Heat's success, whether Lebron/Wade can do more than just taking turns running isos.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Okay so I'm not one of the guys that are freaking out and saying that the Heat are falling short, ect. But I mean the people that were pimping Bosh as a top ten player and better than Gasol must feel pretty ****ing stupid right about now right? 

I'm sure that Bosh will eventually find his role and not be a waste of space out there, but it's pretty clear that he is not the best that the league has to offer in terms of big men, and he's proving more and more every day that he's not close.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> Okay so I'm not one of the guys that are freaking out and saying that the Heat are falling short, ect. But I mean the people that were pimping Bosh as a top ten player and better than Gasol must feel pretty ****ing stupid right about now right?
> 
> I'm sure that Bosh will eventually find his role and not be a waste of space out there, but it's pretty clear that he is not the best that the league has to offer in terms of big men, and he's proving more and more every day that he's not close.


Because 7 games into the season we can already see that Bosh isn't a good fit on the Heat?

When the Heat win their first championship whether it be this year or next Bosh's stock will indeed rise higher than what it was before. That's just how things work when it comes to fans viewing players that win vs. players that lose.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

seifer0406 said:


> Because 7 games into the season we can already see that Bosh isn't a good fit on the Heat?
> 
> When the Heat win their first championship whether it be this year or next Bosh's stock will indeed rise higher than what it was before. That's just how things work when it comes to fans viewing players that win vs. players that lose.


The Heat would be better if they had any of the other elite big men. Amar'e, Dwight, Duncan, or Gasol would make this team unbeatale. Bosh is a nice player but he's not top ten, or even top fifteen.

And I actually think the Heat will win two to three 'ships with this team probably starting next year so let's not paint me as a hater.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> The Heat would be better if they had any of the other elite big men. Amar'e, Dwight, Duncan, or Gasol would make this team unbeatale. Bosh is a nice player but he's not top ten, or even top fifteen.


That was your opinion before the season even started. It's not like you reached that conclusion after watching the first 7 games of the season. Funny how you expect people to change their minds with such a small sample size. Was Gasol considered a top 10 player 7 games after he joined the Lakers? People seem to forget how KG made him his bitch in the finals.

In 2 years we can look back at this thread and I bet it would look real silly. Like I said a hundred times, if Gasol didn't join the Lakers you wouldn't give 2 ****s about the guy today. Winning has been raising players's stocks for as long as I can remember and as long as the Heat wins, Bosh will be viewed as a better player than what he was before.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

the thing is i think the heat can win *despite* having bosh at pf instead of *with* bosh at pf. that's sad considering he was considered a star by many. heat can win the championship with any half decent pf. all this "it's early; it's 7 games; they're 5-2; wait till he finds his role" are all excuses; if bosh were in fact the best pf in the game or even top 3, he shouldnt need excuses. he should produce. bottom line. no if or buts.

let's not kid ourselves with bosh's value. his value was highest this summer. you think if he puts up 16/8 for a championship miami team that it would increase his value? not with the way he's playing right now. i don't think riley is getting any phone calls requesting bosh for guys like marc gasol, david lee, or aldridge at this point. if it were last summer, teams would have taken that trade without much thought.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> the thing is i think the heat can win *despite* having bosh at pf instead of *with* bosh at pf. that's sad considering he was considered a star by many. heat can win the championship with any half decent pf. all this "it's early; it's 7 games; they're 5-2; wait till he finds his role" are all excuses; if bosh were in fact the best pf in the game or even top 3, he shouldnt need excuses. he should produce. bottom line. no if or buts.


How's that sad for Bosh? Isn't that sad for the rest of the league because the Heat are too good?

Let's visit your logic for a second. So if the Heat can win without Bosh, how would that change if Bosh starts playing better? Are you telling me that Bosh should become more important so that the Heat might lose without him? How does that make any sense. It's not his fault that the Heat is that good.

And no, I don't agree that the Heat can compete with the Lakers with Lebron and Wade alone. Time will tell if Bosh becomes an integral part of the Heat's success but imo he will.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

How can anyone be touting Amare over Bosh right now with the way Amare has played his first 7 games? Both of them have started slow. Amare is at 19ppg right now but only on 41 percent shooting. He's playing three more minutes per game than bosh as well, with only 3 rebounds more to show.

The three guys available were Bosh, Amare, Boozer. I think of the three of those the Heat got the right guy for their team. Boozer is injury prone and definitely undersized. Amare doesn't play D and his arms and eyeballs may fall out. Bosh is the youngest of the three, plays the best defense, and is the best mid range shooter.

The question at the end of the day is going to be whether Bosh can work against Gasol and KG enough to mitigate their contributions. And how he fits in the overall schemes for the Heat. But lets' not act like somehow he's fallen behind the guys he was compared with this summer.

He has tremendous potential and could eventually develop into a Gasol level player. But right now at PF it's Dirk, Pau and that's it. KG and Duncan on their day can be at that level. But of that group of Amare, Boozer, Bosh--Bosh hasn't done anything to take him out of that discussion after only 7 games.


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

Yeah bosh stepped up alittle last night, but against the Nets plus they were always ahead in that game from what i heard. Didn't get a chance to see it.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Noyze said:


> Yeah bosh stepped up alittle last night, but against the Nets plus they were always ahead in that game from what i heard. Didn't get a chance to see it.


That's an improvement from him though. The last time the two teams played he only got one rebound, and made Favors look like an all-star. This time, not so much.

The game was pretty much like the last Nets-Heat game. Close-ish in the first half. Blown open in the second half.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

my problem with bosh is that he's not good enough to be the #1 option on a winning team. he's also not good enough to be a #3 guy because he doesn't offer a whole lot outside of offense. including this season, he hasn't shown a trend where his game has or will evolve. even then, his offense isn't even that great because he doesn't bang with the bigs, or have a low post game. 

still, the heat will win a championship or two in spite of bosh. imo, he's obviously not in the same class as pau.. he has maybe half the versatility that pau brings. if the heat had pau instead of bosh, it would be gg for the league. the good passing and command of double teams DOWN LOW would open up numerous opportunities for wade and lebron when things aren't clicking for them.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

> The conversation was about connection.
> 
> Forward Chris Bosh approached teammate LeBron James on Friday night during the Heat's return flight from New Orleans and wanted to talk -- a simple chat between new friends, friends who still had a lot to learn about each other. It was about basketball, but it was also about bonding. Six games into this grand experiment and things were not happening as easily for Bosh as he had originally envisioned.
> 
> ...


http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/11/07/1914376/miami-heats-bosh-james-trying.html#ixzz14lZKiqXG


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Bosh will find his way. I don't think the numbers will ever skyrocket in his role but 15-17ppg and 10-12rpg would be a success. Especially if he can defend and block some shots.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

15-17 ppg is possible, but 10+ rebounds per game? i am doubtful. he's not physical, and he's not very active without the ball.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Didn't he average 11 last year? And 10 the year before. Miami's defense creates a lot of missed shots. I think he can grab 10+ rebounds.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

The Heat could definitely use 10 a game.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Didn't he average 11 last year? And 10 the year before. Miami's defense creates a lot of missed shots. I think he can grab 10+ rebounds.


probably not. Lebron and Wade are great rebounders for their position, and anthony is an underrated rebounder. He's just on a better team where opportunities for him will be limited. It will be interesting to see how he adjusts. Its only the first month of the season.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

The rebounding opportunities are there. You just have to go get them. The Heat defense forces enough misses that Bosh can certainly pull his weight. And offensively, I think Bosh just needs to not settle for the elbow jumper. Roll to the basket a little more. Statistically in seasons past supposedly he was one of the very best roll big men in the league with Amare. If he rolls Lebron will find him, just like Lebron found Hickson.

Heck for reference last year hickson was 9 and 5 in only 20 minutes per game and he was like the fifth option on the Cavs offense.

Bosh could also just watch Haslem and do what he does. Haslem is averaging 8 rebounds in less time on the floor than Bosh.


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

I'm skeptical that Bosh can grab 10 a night. Heat have alot of solid defensive rebounders. I think he'd have to grab at least 2-3 offensive boards a night and that's not happening. He's also been terrible off the ball, he can't even set and aggressive screen. There was no one to grab rebounds in Toronto, i think his numbers were seriously inflated. Before the pre-season started he said he was gonna focus on defense and rebounding for this team but hasn't. 

I think he'll find his way by mid-December, Heat will be winning so he wont be under fire but his numbers wont be huge. I'm thinking 17/8 with improved defense and blocked shots by the end of the year.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

I think his numbers will be about 15 and 8. or they should be at 15 and 8. thats not too far off what is going on now. the difference is that bosh has not had a good game, i think as he settles into his role and finds his way that his averages wont be much different but he'll have more good games or bigger games.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Pay Ton said:


> See that's why this Bosh trade needs to happen just for comedy's sake.
> 
> Whatever destination you suggest for him ends up being pure comedy. These are all classic.
> 
> ...


Some more suggestions, Bosh to Cleveland for Sideshow Bob, Ramon Sessions, Anthony Parker & draft picks. Or to the Wiz for Hinrich, Blatche, and picks. Cleveland's funnier, though. And now I want it to happen, because there's no ****ing excuse for someone of Bosh's height & length allowing Little Paulie Milsap to go Kobe on your team. I don't care how great a ****ing point guard Deron Williams is.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

E.H. Munro said:


> Some more suggestions, Bosh to Cleveland for Sideshow Bob, Ramon Sessions, Anthony Parker & draft picks. Or to the Wiz for Hinrich, Blatche, and picks. Cleveland's funnier, though. And now I want it to happen, because there's no ****ing excuse for someone of Bosh's height & length allowing Little Paulie Milsap to go Kobe on your team. I don't care how great a ****ing point guard Deron Williams is.


LOL.

Yeah, Bosh can say he doesn't care about the numbers, and to a certain extent he's right.

But he should care about his opponent's numbers. As in, don't let your opponent torch you for 46 points.

Those are important numbers. Care for those.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

What are opposing bigs averaging against Bosh? It must be an astronomical number


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Guys like Gasol and Duncan are what you'd call PF/C's....guys like Bosh and Dirk are strictly PF's. With both Haslem and Bosh playing at the 4/5, they're going to get abused by guys that can exploit their lack of size and shotblocking presence.

The Heat need to get Dampier if he's still in shape...


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

dirk and bosh have no back to the basket game.. not even considered a 4 to me. more like a really tall small forward.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Yeah Bosh is more of a 3/4 IMO. Really a 3. You can guard him with your small forward and still push him around. He really needs to hit the weight room.

Dampier isn't the answer either. He is pretty sucky.

I think the answer is moving Haslem to the starting lineup, and playing Bosh exclusively with Big Z.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

To say that the Heat's weakness is their middle is the understatement of the year.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

this is just getting embarrassing out there. owned hard by millsap. i know you ain't playing for toronto no more but i'm embarrassed that i ever thought you were our franchise guy at one point. shape up, please.


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

Good to see Bosh struggle though, he's been a big douche ever since he thought he was some sort of superstar


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Chris Bosh doesn't care about stat people


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/...ade-Miami-Heat-Big-Three-Dennis-Rodman-110810


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> Chris Bosh doesn't care about stat people


:lol:


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Damn.

I was expecting the backlash to start, but not this early.


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

If the Celtics beat them on Thursday Eric Spoelstra is gonna be in trouble.


Also, i can't remember the last championship team that won with a soft big. Once the Heat start playing those grind it out games they are gonna have trouble.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

The Celtics game is going to be very interesting, I wanna see how Bosh respond.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

OneBadLT123 said:


> http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/...ade-Miami-Heat-Big-Three-Dennis-Rodman-110810


This writer made a lot of sense until he started trade-fantasizing like a Knicks fan.

Cleveland is going to give up Varejao for Bosh? Seriously?

Even more ridiculous is the idea Houston would give up Scola for Bosh.

Keep dreaming, Whitlock.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Cleveland certainly might give up Varejão for RuBosh, because they really need a primary scorer for the rest of their players to play off of. Bosh's problem is that there's pretty much no role for him offensively on that team other than garbageman, and he's not very good in that role. I don't think that NBA GMs are necessarily downgrading Bosh to the extent that bulletin board fans are assuming. From what I've seen of Miami so far, there's no role for a third scorer there, and I don't think that GMs are going to hold that against RuBosh. As for Houston & Scola, that depends. Houston was certainly interested during the free agent signing season, so they might still be interested. However I'm not sure that a relatively small big is what Miami's looking for at the moment.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

"Always with the scenarios!" (C) AJ Soprano

Bosh isn't going anywhere.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I hope not, having Bosh moping because there's no role for him certainly clears the way for Boston to reach the finals. :bsmile:


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

even though KG's older, i think he's likely to have bosh's number.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

He's always had RuBosh's number. CB4 seems to have a mental block about playing Garnett.


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> He's always had RuBosh's number. CB4 seems to have a mental block about playing Garnett.


Well Bosh is a pussy, talk ****, slap him around alittle bit and he'll clam up. Like they said, when he misses a few shots then he holds his head down.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

So Bosh is the scapegoat lol....has it occured to anyone than Lebron Ive...James' style of play in which he dominates the ball and everyone stands and watches might not be good for the team?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HB said:


> So Bosh is the scapegoat lol....has it occured to anyone than Lebron Ive...James' style of play in which he dominates the ball and everyone stands and watches might not be good for the team?


Both he and Wade are high usage players, and Wade's is actually the highest on the Heat. Which is why you've seen me post about 72 times now the thought that there probably isn't a role on the Heat for RuBosh.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

So how does getting a Paul or Melo solve that?


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

HB said:


> So Bosh is the scapegoat lol....has it occured to anyone than Lebron Ive...James' style of play in which he dominates the ball and everyone stands and watches might not be good for the team?


i don't think he's a scapegoat.. he's obviously overpaid, and one of their weakest links when you take into account his salary. if lebron's not doing well offensively, he can at least make up for it by dishing out assists or rebounding the his team. he's also a pretty good defender. wade's the same, although he's not as good as lebron is at doing the "other things." if bosh isn't doing well offensively, there isn't much you can expect from him.

after tonight's game.. cbosh's twitter header will be "KG called me christina bosh"


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HB said:


> So how does getting a Paul or Melo solve that?


Where did I say that trading for either would? I do think that dealing Wade for Paul would help them, but if they were to deal RuBosh, it would need to be for someone that could give them defense & rebounding at the 4 while being happy with a garbageman role on offense. Bosh just hasn't shown any capacity to change his game and fit in. Neither has Wade, frankly (which is why I suggested that Wade for Paul would boost Miami).


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Not you, but I have seen those suggestions around here.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

afobisme said:


> after tonight's game.. cbosh's twitter header will be "KG called me christina bosh"


Shaq's allegedly playing tonight, I expect him to hear a heck of a lot worse than that.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

The game is tomorrow, no?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> The game is tomorrow, no?


Damn you, I've been in a good mood all afternoon thinking that tomorrow was Friday. :mad2:


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

LOL, your statement took me by surprise..."they are playing tonight??? What??"

Not to get too much into hyperbole here, but it is an important game for Miami, and especially their future ex-coach. Just how long he lasts is directly related to how many losses Riley can stomach in the first 20 games...except at the rate Spo is going, that statement might shrink to "first 10 games."


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

By the way, are we still pretending Bosh is as good as Pau Gasol? 

Just looking at that Pau thread about how much more confident he is whereas Bosh has seemed to lose his...not much question who I'd rather have. I doubt Gasol would only be doing 14 and 5 on the Heat.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Give him time. Remember, Gasol is the clear 2nd option for the Lakers. And has been there for like, 3 years now. Obviously Pau is playing much better than Bosh right now though.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

Wade County said:


> Give him time. Remember, Gasol is the clear 2nd option for the Lakers. And has been there for like, 3 years now. Obviously Pau is playing much better than Bosh right now though.


pau's assertiveness and agressiveness (yikes!) has forced himself into being the second option every night. having players like odom and bynum on the roster and hustling your ass off to make sure you get yours and help the team when is what a player should do when they are a star on a team with a superstar. Bosh playing with two other superstars has NO relevance on the lack of defensive intensity and ability to gather boards.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I said back when Gasol was better though. I don't think there's enough time in the world for anyone to ever think Bosh was capable of being more valuable than Gasol again.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Difference is, Pau knows his role and plays it expertly. Bosh has had 8 games to figure it out and has struggled. I'm not saying Bosh is better, im just saying give him time. Everyone jumping off the wagon after 8 ****ing games.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I just dont know how a 6'11" guy on a team dying to have someone clean up the boards logs two 1 rebound games in a week - that's not about skill or even fitting in, that's head and heart stuff


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Wade County said:


> Difference is, Pau knows his role and plays it expertly. Bosh has had 8 games to figure it out and has struggled. I'm not saying Bosh is better, im just saying give him time. Everyone jumping off the wagon after 8 ****ing games.


He doesn't look comfortable out there, and the Heat have a lot to figure out. I'm not saying they won't but look at the last few times teams had major shake ups where superstar players were added; when the Lakers added Gasol, he fit in from day 1 and they started dominating almost instantly and won 12 of their first 13 including 10 straight. And this was after a mid-season trade.

When the Celtics acquired Ray Allen and Garnett, again, the team was pretty much dominant from day 1, started 8-0 and won 11 of their first 12.

These guys all fit from day 1. Bosh isn't like Gasol or Garnett. He's like Gary Payton on the 2004 Lakers.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Are the heat dying for rebounding though? They're pretty efficient on offense, and defensively, Lebron and Wade both are capable of 10 boards on any given night. Haslem is going to board for you. Z. Anthony has been boarding more than you'd suspect.

I think the Heat just need Bosh to do whatever he does aggressive. His value is as an efficient scorer, who can get to the free throw line.

In an ideal world I think Lebron is making 55 percent of his shots, but taking the fewest of the big three. And then Wade and Bosh are the two main scorers, with Lebron averaging a lot of assists and rebounds, and playing lock down defense.

Lebron needs to be the fusion of Scottie Pippen and Magic Johnson. While Wade does Kobe, and Bosh does Gasol.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Drewbs said:


> He doesn't look comfortable out there, and the Heat have a lot to figure out. I'm not saying they won't but look at the last few times teams had major shake ups where superstar players were added; when the Lakers added Gasol, he fit in from day 1 and they started dominating almost instantly and won 12 of their first 13 including 10 straight. And this was after a mid-season trade.
> 
> When the Celtics acquired Ray Allen and Garnett, again, the team was pretty much dominant from day 1, started 8-0 and won 11 of their first 12.
> 
> These guys all fit from day 1. Bosh isn't like Gasol or Garnett. He's like Gary Payton on the 2004 Lakers.


The Celtics have been together for what 4 years? And they have almost the same record right now as the Heat. So I think you have to somewhat put the Heat in the context of who they are playing. It's a tougher league, and the Heat didn't have a good preseason with Wade out the whole time. Let's make our conclusions on this Heat team after 20 games(or after Mike Miller gets back even)


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

futuristxen said:


> Are the heat dying for rebounding though? They're pretty efficient on offense, and defensively, Lebron and Wade both are capable of 10 boards on any given night. Haslem is going to board for you. Z. Anthony has been boarding more than you'd suspect.
> 
> I think the Heat just need Bosh to do whatever he does aggressive. His value is as an efficient scorer, who can get to the free throw line.
> 
> ...



He can't even be like Pau, because he doesn't play in the post. Bosh just needs to be a garabage man, and worry about rebounding and defense.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

futuristxen said:


> The Celtics have been together for what 4 years? And they have almost the same record right now as the Heat. So I think you have to somewhat put the Heat in the context of who they are playing. It's a tougher league, and the Heat didn't have a good preseason with Wade out the whole time. Let's make our conclusions on this Heat team after 20 games(or after Mike Miller gets back even)


Your missing what his point.

The Celtics big three all fit together, you have the one on one scorer in Pierce, the shooter in Ray Allen, and the guy who couuld control a game without touching the basketball in Garnett. The problem with Miami is they don't all have their roles down yet. Wade and Lebron seem to have figured it out, while Bosh doesn't have a clue yet.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Game3525 said:


> He can't even be like Pau, because he doesn't play in the post. Bosh just needs to be a garabage man, and worry about rebounding and defense.


He can play in the post if he turns and drives. He's an exceptional finisher around the rim with either hand, and has a quickness edge on almost every PF in the league.

The Heat have to exploit him a little more. When Fasenko was guarding him in the Utah game Bosh scored like two straight times on him, and then the Heat went away from him. A lot of that is Lebron at the point. He's an excellent passer, but he needs to get to that cerebral level of a Rondo/Chris Paul where he knows where his teammates want it, and how to get them going.

I think a lot of the flack Bosh is getting is really flack Lebron should be getting.

Lebron is hurting Bosh because he's slowing down the Heat offense by walking it up the court. Lebron needs to get rebounds and run like Jason Kidd or Magic. Get Bosh going up and down the court. There's not many bigs who are going to be able to run with Bosh. Plus Lebron is taking too many bad shots right now. He took like 18 shots the other night and maybe 5 were in the paint? Lebron shouldn't be shooting jumpers with Bosh Jame Jones, and House out there. He needs to either get into the paint for drive and kicks, or hit bosh close to the box and let him go to work.

Lebron is also not playing well off the ball. He needs to be making more off the ball cuts. This would take advantage more of Bosh and Wade's excellent passing skills.

Right now the only things Lebron is doing well is defense and finding James Jones or Z on the perimeter. He's stuck in his comfort zone of how he played with teh Cavs. He needs a coach or a Pat Riley to get in his ear and tell him he needs to change how he's playing more.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Game3525 said:


> Your missing what his point.
> 
> The Celtics big three all fit together, you have the one on one scorer in Pierce, the shooter in Ray Allen, and the guy who couuld control a game without touching the basketball in Garnett. The problem with Miami is they don't all have their roles down yet. Wade and Lebron seem to have figured it out, while Bosh doesn't have a clue yet.


If the Celtics big three fit together so well--why do they have basically the same record as the Heat? It says a lot that this heat team supposedly doesn't fit together, and yet they have a similar record to the Celtics who do. If they win tonight, the teams will have the same record.

The Heat are fitting together at an elite level right now--BUT they are not fitting together at a championship level yet. But that's only because of how great the Lakers are. That's a higher standard than the Celtics had to meet when they first got together.

Even Doc Rivers himself said the Celtics were fortunate to get those early wins, because it took time for them to fit together, especially executing at the end of games. Which right now, the heat's 3 losses are all because of execution at the end of games. That stuff just takes time.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> Are the heat dying for rebounding though? They're pretty efficient on offense, and defensively, Lebron and Wade both are capable of 10 boards on any given night. Haslem is going to board for you. Z. Anthony has been boarding more than you'd suspect.


the Heat have been outrebounded on the offensive glass by an average of 2.75 boards a game

in 2 of their 3 losses they were outrebounded and in each of the last two losses they've made Emeka Okafor and Paul Milsapp look like the second comings of Bob Lanier and Dan Issell respectively


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

futuristxen said:


> If the Celtics big three fit together so well--why do they have basically the same record as the Heat? It says a lot that this heat team supposedly doesn't fit together, and yet they have a similar record to the Celtics who do. If they win tonight, the teams will have the same record.
> 
> The Heat are fitting together at an elite level right now--BUT they are not fitting together at a championship level yet. But that's only because of how great the Lakers are. That's a higher standard than the Celtics had to meet when they first got together.
> 
> Even Doc Rivers himself said the Celtics were fortunate to get those early wins, because it took time for them to fit together, especially executing at the end of games. Which right now, the heat's 3 losses are all because of execution at the end of games. That stuff just takes time.


The Celtics losses have nothing to do with the fact they don't fit. They lost to the Cavs on a back to back, which is a pain in the ass for an old team. And then they lost to a very good Dallas team in Dallas, which was another back to back. 

When the Celtics got together, they all knew their roles from the start. The Heat are just not there yet.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

e-monk said:


> the Heat have been outrebounded on the offensive glass by an average of 2.75 boards a game
> 
> in 2 of their 3 losses they were outrebounded and in each of the last two losses they've made Emeka Okafor and Paul Milsapp look like the second comings of Bob Lanier and Dan Issell respectively


It's way too early for stats like that.

And let's not act like Utah dominated us. Millsap beat us because he looked like Reggie Miller not Shaq.

We haven't even been blown out yet so all the panic is pretty much overreaction.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> If the Celtics big three fit together so well--why do they have basically the same record as the Heat? It says a lot that this heat team supposedly doesn't fit together, and yet they have a similar record to the Celtics who do. If they win tonight...
> *did I miss the part where the Heat have gone to the finals 2 of the last 3 years? oh you mean this season? it's 1-0 and if the Celtics win tonight....*
> 
> The Heat are fitting together at an elite level right now--BUT they are not fitting together at a championship level yet. But that's only because of how great the Lakers are. That's a higher standard than the Celtics had to meet when they first got together.
> ...


I really think there is a point to be made about the difference between the Celtics and the Heat in terms of roles and styles of play - because with the celtics you had guys who could play in 3 zones offensively and handle their defensive responsibilities at a high level but with the Heat you have three guys who all want to be at the top of the key - Wade and Bron are figuring it out but near as I can see Bosh is the odd fellow out and he's not doing what he needs to do to contribute - not saying he cant but what it is he needs to do is not a natural fit for him the way it was for KG - in fact what KG did for the Celtics is exactly what the Heat need - can Bosh provide it? I have my doubts


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Adam said:


> It's way too early for stats like that.
> 
> *I dont think it's too early to analyze how these losses have happened - can we draw conclusions with 'scientific accuracy'? probably not - can we begin to spot trends that support our original hypothesis? I think so*
> 
> ...


who is us? I do it too but then I catch myself when I look around my apartment and I dont see 16 O'brien trophies on the book shelves

anyway, I dont think it's time to panic - I do think it's time to stop drinking the BSPN Koolaid and assuming 72 wins, the next 5 straight titles etc


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

They don't only want to be at the top of the key. Wade scores just as much off that screen play we run on the elbow. Always has. LeBron scores from everywhere. The problem is people want to make summations and place labels which don't fit.

The Celtics didn't have a lot of the things we have. I could list things we do that they didn't in their first year, and the Heat up until last game (I haven't checked recently) were the #1 defensive team in the league so all the talk about their defensive inefficiencies 8 games in is an overreaction. They have looked dominate defensively in every game. Even against Utah they outplayed them.



e-monk said:


> anyway, I dont think it's time to panic - I do think it's time to stop drinking the BSPN Koolaid and assuming 72 wins, the next 5 straight titles etc


See, I don't get this. Virtually every NBA analyst at ESPN does nothing but bash us. You hear nothing but how Spoelstra is doing a terrible job even before the Utah game, even when he has the #1 defense in the league.

Bill Simmons and Michael Wilbon are probably the two most nationally respected NBA writers and they do nothing but bash us constantly. Ric Bucher has his tongue so far up Kobe's ass but he will occasionally protract it to say something stupid about how he doesn't think LeBron is a winner or a great player.

Who are the ESPN people supporting us? Do they have a page with all of their picks because I've seen Jon Barry bash us and say we wouldn't win this year and Jalen Rose picked the Celtics as well.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

btw 4 of the Heat's 5 victories have come against the 76ers, TWolves and Nets (x2) - they absolutely killed the magic but their losses have all come against teams likely to go to the playoffs - not a great trend either


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

...and they killed Orlando like you said.

We outrebounded and outplayed Utah for all the gloom and doom that came out of that loss. And rebounding stats are going to be unfair right now because Spo doesn't know how he wants to rotate Haslem and Bosh. He's playing Haslem as a center just to give him minutes and I don't expect that to continue. Again, that's all part of the process of a new team working stuff out. You can't take so much from these early games as I see people taking.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I just think it's weird to compare the Heat to the Celtics of a few years ago when we can compare them right now. Everyone is like "well the celtics big three did this or did that"--what are the celtics big three doing right now? That's what's important, no? That's what the comparison is. And right now they are pretty similar teams. The Celtics don't have chemistry as an excuse like the Heat though. The Heat are already pretty close to the Celtics level and they're not even playing well.

Right now the Heat are being judged on a game to game basis. Every game is either a validation or a refutation of some overarching point about the team. Everyone is so damn desperate to be right, that they can't wait to see what happens first. Create the truth first, then contort reality to fit it. That's what's going on.

It doesn't matter how the Heat are playing in November. What matters is how they are playing in March. And April. May. And we've seen tons of teams that pick it up in the second half of the year, or drop off. The NBA is a marathon not a sprint. Remember the Heat team that won the title the last time was pretty unremarkable in the regular season. They didn't do well against the top teams. But come playoff time they caught lightning in a bottle and ran straight to a title.

Heck look at last year's celtics. They started fast. Fell way off. Everyone thought they were done. Next thing you know they've crushed the Cavs and Magic, and are once again the cream of the east crop.

It's a long game. And it would be foolish to make rash personnel decisions this early on.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

e-monk said:


> I just dont know how a 6'11" guy on a team dying to have someone clean up the boards logs two 1 rebound games in a week - that's not about skill or even fitting in, that's head and heart stuff


Yup.

Bosh = Elden Campbell...very uncomfortable in his role on this team.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Right now the Heat are being judged on a game to game basis.


They knew that was going to happen going into this season. No surprise there.



> It doesn't matter how the Heat are playing in November.


Sure it does. That is why we are talking about it. Some people made the claim that this team will go 74-8, so naturally people are going to talk about "November" when they are 5-3 so far.



> What matters is how they are playing in March. And April. May.


That too. But at this rate, they aren't getting to June.



> It's a long game[season]. And it would be foolish to make rash personnel decisions this early on.


This I agree with.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

i remember a lot of people claiming the heat would win 70 games... or at least 65 games. at this rate, they are not going to.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Ron said:


> Yup.
> 
> Bosh = Elden Campbell...very uncomfortable in his role on this team.


I liked Elden Campbell, but the key difference between him and Bosh is that the reason Campbell didn't work is that he literally played in the space that Shaq needed to be. Bosh isn't in anyone's way. Neither Wade or Lebron play on the block or elbow. 


The comparison right now that I see with the Heat is the Rockets that year they had Pippen, Drexler, and Hakeem(don't remember if they added Barkley yet), and Rudy T was such a bad coach and so reliant on isos that he pretty much turned Scottie Pippen into a corner 3 point shooter.

The Heat's main issue right now is that they play at a slow pace, and on offense there's too much standing around. They still are efficient because of how talented they are. But when Lebron and Bosh don't have the ball in their hands, they aren't making aggressive moves anywhere on the court toward the basket. That's either them not being comfortable with the offense, there not being an offense, or Lebron breaking plays like he did in cleveland.

It's hard to tell because Miami played like this last year too.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I will say it's a bad league to be in and not be able to defend the point guard position. rondo, nash, rose, williams, paul, curry, westbrook, jennings, wall, Brooks, Parker, Kidd, Harris--it's like every team has a good point guard, except for the Heat and Lakers. And the Lakers look like they at least have an answer now at that position with Blake


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

yeah, maybe all 3 of those guys will learn how to play off the ball.. it did take someone like LO 3+ years to figure when to cut to the basket.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

afobisme said:


> yeah, maybe all 3 of those guys will learn how to play off the ball.. it did take someone like LO 3+ years to figure when to cut to the basket.


LO is a moron.

Who cares if the Heat don't win 70? That doesn't matter. Riley has already said 72 wins is not a goal and you don't go for that to sacrifice health.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

the people who are predicting the heat will win 70+ games are the ones who care..

and LO may have his bonehead moments, but but at this point he's certainly a smarter player than bosh. LO knows how to affect the game otuside of his scoring.. and on offense, he knows just when to make cuts to the basket for easy layups. or when to push the ball.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

afobisme said:


> the people who are predicting the heat will win 70+ games are the ones who care..


Okay. I'll say a prayer for them.



> and LO may have his bonehead moments, but but at this point he's certainly a smarter player than bosh. LO knows how to affect the game otuside of his scoring.. and on offense, he knows just when to make cuts to the basket for easy layups. or when to push the ball.


That's your opinion. It really doesn't mean anything or have anything to do with the Heat and what they do.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

e-monk said:


> btw 4 of the Heat's 5 victories have come against the 76ers, TWolves and Nets (x2) - they absolutely killed the magic but their losses have all come against teams likely to go to the playoffs - not a great trend either


And each loss came down to the last minute of the game? Good point.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

-33- said:


> And each loss came down to the last minute of the game? Good point.


So?

If anything it indicates that they can't finish.

They are 1-3 against teams that are above .500. That does not bode well for the playoffs...but they have a whole season to rectify it, which I think they will in time.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

Adam said:


> Okay. I'll say a prayer for them.
> 
> 
> 
> That's your opinion. It really doesn't mean anything or have anything to do with the Heat and what they do.


why are you defecting from my point? my point was that it took LO years to figure out how to play without the ball, to make those cuts. so it's possible the heat could put it together.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

The Lakers have beat:

Houston (1-6), Phoenix (3-4), Golden State (6-2), Memphis (4-5), Sacramento (3-4), Toronto (1-7), Portland (6-3) & Minnesota (2-7). 

So they've played essentially 2 teams with winning records. So it's not like they've had an insane hard schedule to get to 8-0, just like we've won games against crap teams too. And lost to Celtics, Jazz and Hornets - who have all shown they're quality outfits.

Hopefully we get more cohesive and i'm sure we'll be alright in the long run.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

hm is there something im missing here? why are the lakers being brought up?


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Unlike the Heat, LA doesn't have anything to prove. We already know how they stack up against the better teams in the league. It is a privilege you get win you win a championship lol.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

I was merely bringing them up as a comparison, as that seems to be what everyone is doing (Gasol v Bosh, Heat to 72 or Lakers to 72? etc).


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

I haven't heard anyone say LA will get to 72, and Gasol is better then Bosh.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Ron said:


> So?
> 
> If anything it indicates that they can't finish.
> 
> They are 1-3 against teams that are above .500. That does not bode well for the playoffs...but they have a whole season to rectify it, which I think they will in time.


They can't finish after 8 regular season games, some of you guys are *** no personal attacks *** . It's like this is the 1st NBA season that some of you have watched. Stay healthy, improve our chemistryt, and at the end of the season, we will be a top seed and one of the favorites to win the championship. Any other questions?


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

-33- said:


> They can't finish after 8 regular season games, some of you guys are *** no personal attacks *** . It's like this is the 1st NBA season that some of you have watched. Stay healthy, improve our chemistryt, and at the end of the season, we will be a top seed and one of the favorites to win the championship. Any other questions?


This is my 44th NBA season that I have been a fan.

I forgot more basketball than you have seen.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

afobisme said:


> why are you defecting from my point? my point was that it took LO years to figure out how to play without the ball, to make those cuts. so it's possible the heat could put it together.


You don't really have a point except one about Lamar Odom which I wouldn't refute, so I'm not deflecting anything.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Wade County said:


> I was merely bringing them up as a comparison, as that seems to be what everyone is doing (Gasol v Bosh, Heat to 72 or Lakers to 72? etc).


Unlike Miami, no one thought that the Lakers will get to 72...and for sure, no one with their head screwed on straight still thinks that.

It's a very long season, and the Lakers have already shown that they don't take the regular season all that seriously anyway.

Your comparison still shows that the Lakers are 2-0 against playoff teams while Miami is 1-3. I am sure it will change as time goes on but that is the way it is on November 11.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Ron said:


> Unlike Miami, no one thought that the Lakers will get to 72...and for sure, no one with their head screwed on straight still thinks that.
> 
> It's a very long season, and the Lakers have already shown that they don't take the regular season all that seriously anyway.
> 
> Your comparison still shows that the Lakers are 2-0 against playoff teams while Miami is 1-3. I am sure it will change as time goes on but that is the way it is on November 11.


Okay, some people thought Miami would win 72 games. Some people think Kobe is the best player in the league. Let's just agree that there are plenty of crazies out there.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Adam said:


> Okay, some people thought Miami would win 72 games. Some people think Kobe is the best player in the league. Let's just agree that there are plenty of crazies out there.


It is funny how you have to take a shot at Kobe............


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Game3525 said:


> It is funny how you have to take a shot at Kobe............


And Kobe fans. Don't sell me short.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Adam said:


> Okay, some people thought Miami would win 72 games. Some people think Kobe is the best player in the league. Let's just agree that there are plenty of crazies out there.


Total _non-sequitir_.

Which you have done twice now in this thread, first with Lamar Odom and then with Kobe Bryant.

Sounds like Laker-envy to me.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Lakers have had a cakewalk of a schedule but like all veteran teams it ultimately matters how they're playing in the last couple of months of the reg season and obviously the playoffs (especially Kobe's knees). Compared to the Heat and a lot of playoffs teams, the Lakers are also in a pretty easy division as well.

On the one hand its good that the Heat have been challenged early on and taking losses now as long as they can learn and adapt from them. On the other hand, grabbing these losses doesn't do much good for their morale and as expected the media and fans go ape**** over each loss. If I remember right last year's Cavs also started slow before eventually dominating the league and grabbing the no. 1 seed. Pretty scary how dominant the Heat have already been on the defensive end though and thats where champions focus and depend on.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Wade County said:


> The Lakers have beat:
> 
> Houston (1-6), Phoenix (3-4), Golden State (6-2), Memphis (4-5), Sacramento (3-4), Toronto (1-7), Portland (6-3) & Minnesota (2-7).
> 
> ...


24 minutes, 15 point deficit - you sure better hope that you have something a little more clever than 'Hey look over there!' if things dont turn around pretty darn quick


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> The comparison right now that I see with the Heat is the Rockets that year they had Pippen, Drexler, and Hakeem(don't remember if they added Barkley yet), and Rudy T was such a bad coach and so reliant on isos that he pretty much turned Scottie Pippen into a corner 3 point shooter.
> 
> The Heat's main issue right now is that they play at a slow pace, and on offense there's too much standing around. They still are efficient because of how talented they are. But when Lebron and Bosh don't have the ball in their hands, they aren't making aggressive moves anywhere on the court toward the basket. That's either them not being comfortable with the offense, there not being an offense, or Lebron breaking plays like he did in cleveland.
> 
> It's hard to tell because Miami played like this last year too.


The rockets got Barkley two years before they got pippen. Pippen and Drexler never played together. Pippen mainly played poorly because he simply wasn't as good. He confirmed that when he went to Portland.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

as a follow up I suggest you go visit the Lakers forums to see how many threads there are concerned about such errata as the Lakers arent playing defense and PJ wont pull Fish - there are no 72 win threads and further there are hardly any threads in the general forums about the Lakers and none about how many games they may win

hey look over there!


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> The rockets got Barkley two years before they got pippen. Pippen and Drexler never played together. Pippen mainly played poorly because he simply wasn't as good. He confirmed that when he went to Portland.


Pippen was awesome in Portland. What are you talking about?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Pippen was awesome in Portland. What are you talking about?


Right. Looked like the Scottie of old! 

Looks like it's not just your memory of the rockets that's spotty.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> Pippen was awesome in Portland. What are you talking about?


second best player on those blazer teams - didnt fit in the desperation mode rebuild on the fly rockets but was a nice swiss army knife for the blazers - good defense, nice distro from the 3, decent most everything - not a star but he never was - it was a decent ride into the sunset regardless what some might say


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

e-monk said:


> as a follow up I suggest you go visit the Lakers forums to see how many threads there are concerned about such errata as the Lakers arent playing defense and PJ wont pull Fish - there are no 72 win threads and further there are hardly any threads in the general forums about the Lakers and none about how many games they may win
> 
> hey look over there!


That's because no one gives a **** about wins during the season...just banners hanging from the ceiling at Staples Center.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

e-monk said:


> second best player on those blazer teams - didnt fit in the desperation mode rebuild on the fly rockets but was a nice swiss army knife for the blazers - good defense, nice distro from the 3, decent most everything - not a star but he never was - it was a decent ride into the sunset regardless what some might say


Pippen was certainly a star. Arguably the best perimeter defender in the league. We are talking about a man who once lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals and block. How many guys have done that? Garnett, maybe the admiral...

The gap between the second and fifth best player on those blazers team was minimal.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Ron said:


> That's because no one gives a **** about wins during the season...just banners hanging from the ceiling at Staples Center.


The Miami fans tracking quality of wins do. Then again they hang division championship banners in Miami. Right next to the Dan Marino and Michael jordan jerseys!


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Jamel Irief said:


> Pippen was certainly a star. Arguably the best perimeter defender in the league. We are talking about a man who once lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals and block. How many guys have done that? Garnett, maybe the admiral...
> 
> The gap between the second and fifth best player on those blazers team was minimal.


I guess you dont follow much basketball - he was still their best perimeter defender, their second best distributor (as a small forward) and a viable scoring option - it was pretty much him and sheed with some deep talent behind 

none of which jibes with your original proposition which means you're just digging


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

hey look over there!


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## BeeGee (Jul 9, 2010)

Nevermind Chris Bosh. D Wade is 6-28 from the field in 2 games vs. the Cs this year with only 12 attempts from the line (8-12). Will the Heat win 72 games? How much more dumb does that question sound now?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Right. Looked like the Scottie of old!
> 
> Looks like it's not just your memory of the rockets that's spotty.


I always get the Rockets thing wrong. For like ten years. But I am not wrong about Pippen's tenure with the Blazers. Blazers fans loved Pippen. They wanted him to retire with the Blazers instead of the Bulls at the end. You really missed out on Scottie at the end. He was so cerebral those years in Portland. It was like Stockton's final years in Utah, where he was just dominating games with his mind. Both sides of the floor. He was the leader of a Blazers team that was within a choke job of getting to the Finals and altering NBA history forever.

He also was great for the Bulls that year Jordan was out.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Oh and Bosh played goodish today. KG didn't really do that much. Bosh was effective when the Heat used him.

It appears it's impossible for Wade and Bosh to both play well at the same time.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Oh and Bosh played goodish today. KG didn't really do that much. Bosh was effective when the Heat used him.
> 
> It appears it's impossible for Wade and Bosh to both play well at the same time.


They played well together against New Jersey and Utah.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Oh and Bosh played goodish today. KG didn't really do that much. Bosh was effective when the Heat used him.
> 
> It appears it's impossible for Wade and Bosh to both play well at the same time.


KG played well today.

Don't know what you saw.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

KG quietly had a solid game 16 and 13.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Oh and Bosh played goodish today. KG didn't really do that much. Bosh was effective when the Heat used him.


I'm not sure what game you were watching, Garnett posted a 16/13/2/2 line with multiple deflections and some bloody great help defense out there. Christ, even James did his damage at the free throw line, because Garnett & Davis didn't let him get easy penetration after he beat his man. Bosh, on the other hand, spent far too many defensive possessions just standing around watching, that Rondo throwdown in his face just being the worst example.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Glen Davis obliterated Eddie House on a screen in the second quarter - much fun - just saying


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I thought KG played an average game for him. It was a quiet game. I thought most of the damage was done by Rondo, Pierce, and Allen. I didn't say I thought Bosh played great. But I thought he played goodish. A shade north of mediocre. 16/13 tonight from KG is much better than the 46 he gave up to Milsap last night. And I thought he was agressive one on one, more so than before. 

I dunno. Much of my analysis of the game is clouded by the despondent filled goggles I watched most of the game with. The Heat have been very disapointing all year. Lebron was disapointing in the playoffs last year. It's been awhile since I've had fun watching a basketball game in which I had a rooting interest. Plus the teams I'm rooting for have been boring as ****.

Need to watch more Warriors games I think.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Haha DWade "We're the best 5-4 team in the league"...oh denial...The Heat still haven't really grasped how ****ty they are playing. They're using that 20 games thing as a crutch right now to excuse lazy play.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

*Teams with a 5-4 record in the NBA*
The Heat.

*Teams without a 5-4 record in the NBA*
Everybody else.

Good for you, Wade. Good for you.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> I thought KG played an average game for him. It was a quiet game. I thought most of the damage was done by Rondo, Pierce, and Allen.


Well, yes, Rondo, Robinson and Pierce were getting penetration at will and no help defender was there to cut them off, and Miami's perimeter defenders sliding in to compensate left Ray Allen open for a bushelful of treys. Of course, Boston might have had a few offensive problems if Miami's primary help defender wasn't standing around watching the action. As for Garnett, he shot 75% from the floor, and extended several possessions with offensive rebounds and deflections.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Looks like the Celtics have the Heat's number. Miami will need to find a big body somewhere to match with Celtic's size up front.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Just last week, I was hearing about this stifling Heat defense LOL !!

No coach, no frontline defense, no PG... 5-4 mediocrity is about right.


----------



## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

@paulpierce34 It's been a pleasure to bring my talents to south beach now on to Memphis - 12 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone 

Hahaha legend!


----------



## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

edabomb said:


> @paulpierce34 It's been a pleasure to bring my talents to south beach now on to Memphis - 12 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone


Awesome.


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

I hate Celtics but what a great team!


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## BeeGee (Jul 9, 2010)

edabomb said:


> @paulpierce34 It's been a pleasure to bring my talents to south beach now on to Memphis - 12 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone
> 
> Hahaha legend!


aw man lol


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## BeeGee (Jul 9, 2010)

Remember D Wade "If we lose a couple in a row, it'll be like the WTC coming down.."

3 losses in the last 4 games. I don't see anybody freakin out or any towers coming down. Matter of fact, people are kinda gettin' used to the Heat losing. Those dudes got way too gas'd up and ran their mouth way too much in the offseason. Per the "Heat Index", with Wade on the floor, the Celtics are +33 over the two games. That's almost jaw-dropping.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Everybody get your shots in now. Can't wait till this turns in our favour, and it will.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Wade County said:


> Everybody get your shots in now. Can't wait till this turns in our favour, and it will.


Just 11 more games supposedly(20 games)...The schedule is a lot easier from here on out though, which should help as well. Need to rip off an 8 game win streak


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

e-monk said:


> I guess you dont follow much basketball - he was still their best perimeter defender, their second best distributor (as a small forward) and a viable scoring option - it was pretty much him and sheed with some deep talent behind
> 
> none of which jibes with your original proposition which means you're just digging


I said he wasnt the same player he was on the bulls. If you believe that he was then you must be 8 years old.

Speaking of following basketball, did you watch 40 year old pip balling in china? Or limping around on the lottery bound bulls? He retired about as gracefully as dominque Wilkins and Allen iverson.

When i said best perimeter defender I meant in the NBA. Greg Anthony was a better defender then him by then.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Jamel Irief said:


> I said he wasnt the same player he was on the bulls. If you believe that he was then you must be 8 years old.
> 
> Speaking of following basketball, did you watch 40 year old pip balling in china? Or limping around on the lottery bound bulls? He retired about as gracefully as dominque Wilkins and Allen iverson.
> 
> When i said best perimeter defender I meant in the NBA. Greg Anthony was a better defender then him by then.


*what does this have to do with anything - did you see 39 year old Mike getting schooled by Kobe? I guess that means Kobe is the GOAT? no

*


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Wade County said:


> Everybody get your shots in now. Can't wait till this turns in our favour, and it will.


lol @ "our" favor - when you talk crap you breed crap - that's all they did all summer was call for 'all eyes on us' - well guess what, we're looking at 'you'


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

e-monk said:


> lol @ "our" favor - when you talk sh!t you breed sh!t - that's all they did all summer was call for 'all eyes on us' - well guess what, we're looking at 'you'


I don't like you, but good call. It was the summer of Miami on here with everyone cramming the Heat down our throats, so it's more than a little pathetic for some of them to be complaining about the attention now.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

e-monk said:


> *what does this have to do with anything - did you see 39 year old Mike getting schooled by Kobe? I guess that means Kobe is the GOAT? no
> 
> *


Nope, but it means Jordan didn't gracefully ride into the sunset. Already in this thread you claimed Pippen had a nice departure from basketball, was never a star, and was as good in Portland as he was before. Then you claim I don't follow basketball?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Cleveland is 4-4. Just saying.


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## S.jR. (May 18, 2010)

edabomb said:


> @paulpierce34 It's been a pleasure to bring my talents to south beach now on to Memphis - 12 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone
> 
> Hahaha legend!


Win!



e-monk said:


> lol @ "our" favor - when you talk sh!t you breed sh!t - that's all they did all summer was call for 'all eyes on us' - well guess what, we're looking at 'you'


More Win!


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Jamel Irief said:


> Nope, but it means Jordan didn't gracefully ride into the sunset. Already in this thread you claimed Pippen had a nice departure from basketball, was never a star, and was as good in Portland as he was before. Then you claim I don't follow basketball?


I see the problem - we arent reading each other's posts too closely

I do think that Pippen aged gracefully but I never said he was as good in Portland as he was in Chicago I said he was the second best player on that team when you claimed he was crap by that point

as for was he a 'star'? yes, of course he was if you mean a quality player in the league, top 20 kind of guy

but he wasnt 'the star' in Chicago, that other guy was - and in the way that other guy was 'the star' Scottie only played the role one time, in 1994 and that with mixed success

Scottie was otherwise always the sidecar - throughout his career - Chicago, Houston, Portland - a great sidecar, but a sidecar


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

edabomb said:


> @paulpierce34 It's been a pleasure to bring my talents to south beach *now on to Memphis *- 12 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone
> 
> Hahaha legend!


Yeah, not looking forward to tomorrow.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Yeah, not looking forward to tomorrow.


Actually, this is a perfect game for the Celtics to drop. The starters logged big minutes last night in a hard-fought game they actually cared about and the Memphis game is the last of a week-long road trip against a team they don't have any particular animosity towards. When you take into a account that we may or may not have either of the O'neals, leaving us with a big man reserve of just Emih and Harangody, a properly focused Grizz team could surprise the Celtics on Saturday.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Wade County said:


> Everybody get your shots in now. Can't wait till this turns in our favour, and it will.


I am sure it will, and in short order, because you get Toronto next game.

But the bigger issue is the middle...I don't know if you have noticed it yet, but you guys have a REAL PROBLEM there. Mainly, THE HEAT ARE GETTING KILLED IN THE MIDDLE.

You stand NO CHANCE against Boston in any playoff series in which you will meet...none at all...you better hope and pray someone knocks them off before they get to you.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

it sounds like i'm taking the piss (because people always say stuff like this) but in this case it's true: the guy is not the same player he was last year... at least not yet. 

i mean, criticisms about why he's not taking it to the cup, getting to the line or pulling down rebounds are absolutely valid because he's not. 

but he used to. 100%. 

has anyone noticed how much weight he's lost? i'm not even talking about the dreads. i'm talking about the meat on his bones. he's lost, like, 30+ pounds. maybe 40. he's like a shell. he's a decidedly small 6'11" now. he was never very big, granted, but he looks like he hasn't been in the weight room since last season. and maybe he hasn't. and that's all you need to know. 

this guy ain't ready to play basketball. he probably got caught up in the show of it all. maybe approached it like retirement. i mean, *look at him*.

comparing him today to past years is like apples and oranges. this has nothing to do with toronto and miami. it's like he's taken his foot off the pedal, simple as that.

people need question his diet and workout regimen... not his past statistics. hopefully he regains his form soon- literally- or the heat'll be regretting this for years. i mean, he doesn't need to be a tank to get his game off- his skillset is too strong- but if his frail body is in any way reflective what's going on in his head (which is the most important question), it might get ugly in south beach.

peace


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> I dunno. Much of my analysis of the game is clouded by the despondent filled goggles I watched most of the game with. The Heat have been very disapointing all year. Lebron was disapointing in the playoffs last year. It's been awhile since I've had fun watching a basketball game in which I had a rooting interest. Plus the teams I'm rooting for have been boring as ****.
> 
> Need to watch more Warriors games I think.


You'll feel stupid for wanting to jump off the wagon in 2 months or so. 

Then again eventually you will have to admit that you probably misjudged LeBron's ability to lead a team. It's not by chance that people label all these former all-stars "garbage" once they start playing with the King.


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

ballocks said:


> it sounds like i'm taking the piss (because people always say stuff like this) but in this case it's true: the guy is not the same player he was last year... at least not yet.
> 
> i mean, criticisms about why he's not taking it to the cup, getting to the line or pulling down rebounds are absolutely valid because he's not.
> 
> ...


Yeah he does look alot smaller, and he was already small before.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

What does this mean?

Phil Jackson: Heat are talented enough to win 70 games, not Lakers.

Phil makes excuses?

Heat underachieve?


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## Jesukki (Mar 3, 2009)

Mind Games.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Ballscientist said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> Phil Jackson: Heat are talented enough to win 70 games, not Lakers.
> 
> ...


it means that you are being naive about the zen master


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

ballocks said:


> it sounds like i'm taking the piss (because people always say stuff like this) but in this case it's true: the guy is not the same player he was last year... at least not yet.
> 
> i mean, criticisms about why he's not taking it to the cup, getting to the line or pulling down rebounds are absolutely valid because he's not.
> 
> ...


Bosh is still as capable. In the preseason he was playing alongside Mike Miller and some idiots and was scoring at will. When it was just him and LeBron he was still a weapon. 

There just isn't a role for him offensively. This was obvious to me when they signed him, and I'm frantically searching for the thread where I called him averaging 14 ppg.

EDIT- Found it: http://www.basketballforum.com/6316790-post13.html


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Ballscientist said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> Phil Jackson: Heat are talented enough to win 70 games, not Lakers.
> 
> ...


Phil is just ****ing with the Laker players' minds, as usual.

It didn't work at all. They went out and promptly lost their first game of the season. :laugh:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Bosh is still as capable. In the preseason he was playing alongside Mike Miller and some idiots and was scoring at will. When it was just him and LeBron he was still a weapon.
> 
> There just isn't a role for him offensively. This was obvious to me when they signed him, and I'm frantically searching for the thread where I called him averaging 14 ppg.
> 
> EDIT- Found it: http://www.basketballforum.com/6316790-post13.html



People will continue to call "too early"...but in hindsight maybe we're all idiots for thinking two players with the highest usage of the ball and shot clock in the past 5 years need another "option" offensively. Part of me is starting to wonder whether that 14-5 could've been spent on like 2-3 more needed pieces.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> People will continue to call "too early"...but in hindsight maybe we're all idiots for thinking two players with the highest usage of the ball and shot clock in the past 5 years need another "option" offensively. Part of me is starting to wonder whether that 14-5 could've been spent on like 2-3 more needed pieces.


But could they have swung Lebron without Bosh?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Tragedy said:


> But could they have swung Lebron without Bosh?


Probably not, but now that they have him they can trade RuBosh! :bsmile:


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> Probably not, but now that they have him they can trade RuBosh! :bsmile:


I can't see him being traded.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> People will continue to call "too early"...but in hindsight maybe we're all idiots for thinking two players with the highest usage of the ball and shot clock in the past 5 years need another "option" offensively. Part of me is starting to wonder whether that 14-5 could've been spent on like 2-3 more needed pieces.


I'm going to reserve judgment until I see how the Heat perform in the playoffs this year. I'm a believer that quality always wins over quantity in the playoffs and the team with more talent usually wins. Although Lebron/Wade may not be the best match I think eventually the 2 of them will find a way to compliment one another.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I don't doubt they can, but it was Bosh that I was referring to in my post.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I kind of wonder if maybe Bosh would be better as a sixth man on this team, where he could be the focal point of the second unit? I wonder if his ego would let him take that role.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> I kind of wonder if maybe Bosh would be better as a sixth man on this team, where he could be the focal point of the second unit? I wonder if his ego would let him take that role.


He can "I don't care about numbers" all he wants, he likes the spotlight. He wouldn't accept a sixth man role after all the pomp and circumstance he and his two friends made this summer. 

One of the main downfalls of the Heat is going to be a guy like Bosh forcing up shots to prove hes just as good as Bron and Wade. Watch.


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