# "The Celtics are quickly becoming the laughing stock of the NBA."



## TONYALLEN42 (Jan 24, 2005)

> The Celtics are quickly becoming the laughing stock of the NBA. Danny Ainge should have been fired long ago, and this team should be run by a GM with the job security to build for the future. Just as he did a year ago, Ainge traded away a top 7 pick, which could have been another building block for the future (Jeff Green, Yi Jianlian, and Brandan Wright were all available). When a GM is in the position where they make moves to save their job so they can win now, they should be fired before going any further. That is, unless the team's overall goal is to fill seats and make money instead of winning championships. As great a player as Ray Allen is, he can make a good team great, but he can't make a bad team great, and the Celtics are too far away to mortgage the future on a 31 year old SG. The decision to go young but hold onto Paul Pierce never made sense, and now they have mortgaged two drafts on winning now, when they are still too far away. 30 year old GM Sam Presti and Seattle fleeced Boston on draft night.


http://www.nbadraft.net/2007draftgrades001.asp#bos

Your thoughts on the grade, etc.?


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

I don't agree with that assessment. I don't think you can rebuild a team with just young guys. Who do they learn from? Even if Doc was a good coach, he can't be the only one to teach. Young guys learn from the veterans, too. Yes, the older guys will decline and retire, but they will have left their mark. Plus, there is absolutely no shortage of young guys on the team. They acquired Allen, but they also got rid of Wally. They gave up a pick, but they got another one. All they really gave up in youth was Delonte. 

And last I checked, the NBA is still a business, so yes, it is about making money and filling seats. By getting Allen, more people will watch and may actually care. It may also entice other players to come here who wouldn't have considered it before. Getting Allen was more than just about Allen. Sure, the fifth pick could have turned out to be something special, but it's just as likely it may not have been. 

I think both teams came out ahead. Seattle is truly rebuilding and have a future superstar to do it with, so it wasn't that big of a risk giving up Allen for the fifth pick. The fifth pick was not nearly a sure thing to produce a future superstar, so keeping it would have been a gamble for the Celtics. Now we have two proven All-Stars to start winning with and to help the young guys along. Guys like Jefferson, Rondo, and Green can still be the future of the franchise (provided they don't get traded), but in the meantime, they can learn alongside a couple of the best in the game while the franchise continues to make money. I don't think the Celtics got fleeced at all. If they'd given up Jefferson, Rondo, Green, or Theo's contract, then it would be a different story.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

danny definitely should have been fired long ago...thats a given...no other job in the world would let you take over a succesful anything and make it unsuccessful for 5 straight years and still keep your job...but the grade is unfair...last year he deserved an F giving up roy for telfair just to correct his own mistake of lafrentz...this year he needed to correct _another_ of his many mistakes in szczerbiak...but this time he actually got a good player for the mistake...i have no problems with the trade...especially if/when it lands us garnett


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I hope Matt wasn't the author of those, because if he did write those he just jumped the shark with several miles to spare. Boston sucked. It wasn't winning a title in five years with this crew and there was no one on the board at 5 that was going to change that. What the hell was Ainge supposed to do? Replicate Chicago and blow up the youth movement for another youth movement so that they'd suck for four to six years and land lots of high lottery picks? This team sucks a whole lot less today than it did a week ago, that's for sure.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

keep in mind that this is the site that gave us a B after we traded the 7 for telfair and gave charlotte an A- for picking up morrison


http://www.nbadraft.net/2006draftgrades001.asp#bos


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

There was no savior at the 5, and we have enough youth. If we are keeping Pierce we needed a vet to help. We got one. A 7-time allstar vet at that. That's a smart move.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Hmmm... so every team has a chance to win a championship every season huh? This isn't football. Basketball is as much about luck then it is about anything else. To win a championship it usually takes lottery luck. Of the few teams who won a title since the 90's began that had top 5 players.

Jordan was drafted by Chicago (Pippen traded for)
Hakeem was drafted by Houston
Duncan was drafted by San Antonio (Ginobili/Parker also drafted)
Shaq left for LA via FA (however Kobe was drafted and traded to LA)
Even teams like Utah and the New York were lead by Ewing and Stockton/Malone (all drafted by their respective teams)

The only team in the last 20 years that has won a title that wasn't lead by a top 5 player, was a team put almost primarily together via trades and free agency (Billups - FA, Wallace - trade, Wallace - trade, Rip - trade, Prince - draft)

I mean at least the Celtics are trying to make the playoffs. Until the Celtics have a top five player their best bet is to have a bunch of quality players on their team so they can have depth to a) either trade for a star b) play the best team ball in the league and give them a chance to make the playoffs.

Not everyone can compete for the title. It's too hard in basketball.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

I cant wait to hear people laughing at us when we're playing in the Eastern Conference Finals this year


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

nbadraft.net is a fun site but I don't agree with almost any of their grades.


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## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

Marcus13 said:


> I cant wait to hear people laughing at us when we're playing in the Eastern Conference Finals this year


LMAO. I'll give you my soul if that happens. :lol:


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> The decision to go young but hold onto Paul Pierce never made sense, and now *they have mortgaged two drafts on winning now, when they are still too far away.*


Telfair and Ratliff are now considered saviors? Obviously last years trade was for financial reasons.



> The Cavs made it to the finals but had no draft additions this year after trading away their first rounder to Boston back in 2005 for Jiri Welsch.


I got a laugh out of that one.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

ehmunro said:


> I hope Matt wasn't the author of those, because if he did write those he just jumped the shark with several miles to spare. Boston sucked. It wasn't winning a title in five years with this crew and there was no one on the board at 5 that was going to change that. What the hell was Ainge supposed to do? Replicate Chicago and blow up the youth movement for another youth movement so that they'd suck for four to six years and land lots of high lottery picks? *This team sucks a whole lot less today than it did a week ago, that's for sure.*


NOT a good barometer for success.

I suppose the general theme is that, at some point, you need veterans to push the kids over the top, in terms of making and having success in the playoffs. I agree with that. It's just that Danny Ainge doesn't really know what he's doing. He's made panic trades at the last 2 drafts and the panic Szerssezszbereiak trade in the middle of the season a couple of years ago. What more does he have to do to show he doesn't know what he's doing?

Ray Allen is a nice player. He'd be a great complimentary player for the next three years. Except Boston wants to turn on the wayback machine and pretend it's 2001 and Allen's just entering his prime.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

narrator said:


> NOT a good barometer for success.
> 
> I suppose the general theme is that, at some point, you need veterans to push the kids over the top, in terms of making and having success in the playoffs.


Or, you know, kids that actually have a chance to win in the NBA rather than a vast collection of late first round picks and second round picks? I understand that this will come as a shock to some Celtics' fans, but youth movements go belly up all the time. In a 30 team league, in fact, you have to count on them failing because the draft isn't a great tool for rebuilding. Let's look at it in this light, shall we? Jefferson was, in absolute terms, a mid first round pick, or a borderline lottery pick. Yet 30 years ago he would have been a late first round pick. Thirty years ago Ryan Gomes would have been a 3rd/4th round pick. The fact is that the odds of landing NBA stars with those picks are pretty remote. Relying on the draft is a loser's game. That's why teams spend so long on the lottery treadmill.



narrator said:


> Ray Allen is a nice player. He'd be a great complimentary player for the next three years. Except Boston wants to turn on the wayback machine and pretend it's 2001 and Allen's just entering his prime.


Ainge had two choices, deal Pierce, blow up the youth movement (because there's no sense in hanging onto potential roleplayers when you're 4-6 years from playing meaningful games) and enter his fourth rebuilding project in five years. And hope that the fans still turned out to watch the Celtics roll out 20 win seasons until they finally had enough talent to compete in the NBA. Or try and improve the product on the floor. Matt and Aran may think that the logical thing to do is to keep sucking until it comes, but Danny's decided to win, instead. Jeff Green wasn't taking them there, Ray Allen will.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

ehmunro said:


> Or, you know, kids that actually have a chance to win in the NBA rather than a vast collection of late first round picks and second round picks? I understand that this will come as a shock to some Celtics' fans, but youth movements go belly up all the time. In a 30 team league, in fact, you have to count on them failing because the draft isn't a great tool for rebuilding. Let's look at it in this light, shall we? Jefferson was, in absolute terms, a mid first round pick, or a borderline lottery pick. Yet 30 years ago he would have been a late first round pick. Thirty years ago Ryan Gomes would have been a 3rd/4th round pick. The fact is that the odds of landing NBA stars with those picks are pretty remote. Relying on the draft is a loser's game. That's why teams spend so long on the lottery treadmill.


I'm not sure why you're upset. We agree on that point.




ehmunro said:


> Ainge had two choices, deal Pierce, blow up the youth movement (because there's no sense in hanging onto potential roleplayers when you're 4-6 years from playing meaningful games) and enter his fourth rebuilding project in five years. And hope that the fans still turned out to watch the Celtics roll out 20 win seasons until they finally had enough talent to compete in the NBA. Or try and improve the product on the floor. Matt and Aran may think that the logical thing to do is to keep sucking until it comes, but Danny's decided to win, instead. Jeff Green wasn't taking them there, Ray Allen will.


Ahhh, here's where we differ. I view most of Ainge's picks as role players. The only two who could turn out to be exceptions are Green and Jefferson. My issue with the Allen trade is that Allen is nearing the end of his prime (he averaged 26 PPG last year, but only in 55 games). I'm thinking that he's a catastrophic injury waiting to happen. Now, if I'm wrong, fantastic. If I'm right, have fun in a three-quarters empty Garden watching Telfair airmail passes over the backboard trying to hit Gomes or Powe.

As I said before, it appears to me that we agree on most of the issues here. I'm not quite sure why you're so bent out of shape because, basically, you're preaching to the choir.


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

narrator said:


> My issue with the Allen trade is that Allen is nearing the end of his prime (he averaged 26 PPG last year, but only in 55 games). I'm thinking that he's a catastrophic injury waiting to happen.


I don't understand why people think Allen is nearing the end of his prime. 32 is not that bad. Let's look at some of the top players in the league:

Tim Duncan - 31
Kevin Garnett - 31
Steve Nash - 33
Jason Kidd - 34 
Vince Carter - 30
Chauncy Billups - will be 31
Allen Iverson - 32

Now you can argue they're all past their prime, but they all have several very productive years ahead of them. Allen may have only played in 55 games last year, but bone spurs aren't that bad compared to sprains, broken bones, plantar fasciitis, and torn ligaments. The fact that he still averaged those numbers with bone spurs is a testament to his skill. I'm guessing like Pierce, they sat him out when they didn't really have to because they realized they weren't going anywhere. 

Anyone can have a bad injury, young or old. Yes, the chances go up with age, but there's no indication that there's any likelihood with Allen compared to others. Greg Oden or Kevin Durant could also have catastrophic injuries. All it takes is landing on someone's foot. You just never know.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Bah, there are Green's available in the draft every year in the pick 10-15 range. This worst this trade could have done is set us back one year and thats only if Ray really does rapidly decline which I don't expect to happen


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

I'd be shocked if the Celtics made it to the Eastern Finals.
Hell, i'd be shocked if they made it to the second round this year!

I see next season as the vital season though.
They have this season to get the team into gear, get everyone some experience playing together, maybe some minor tweaks (such as dealing Telfair and a first for a decent bigman or pg, and signing a veteran pg or bigman to be the mentor to Rondo/Jefferson)
Then in 2008/09 they make a strong run at the playoffs. 
Of course, all the other Eastern teams are improving also. So it's easier said than done.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

i might take some flak for this, but i think that the celtics might be one of the best teams in the east next year...as long as all the players know their roles and play unselfishly, they do have the talent to make it all the way...

rondo, allen, pierce, gomes, jefferson, and anyone remember how well tony allen played before his knee injury??? imagine if tony could come back and contribute as a 6th man next year...

i think the allen for green move was a brilliant...also getting rid of wally's contract was great for the team(duh)....getting rid of west might hurt, but rondo has the potential to be much better...


all in all, i think you guys are having a great offseason...


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

The argument against Allen is that shooting guards after 32 don't have a good track record. See Alan Houston for example. What also doesn't help, is Allen's recent history of injury.

However, I'm keeping the faith.


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## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

I don't like Danny Ainge but I actually applaud him for this move, the East and that division is too wide open, you won't win it all next year with either route, but maybe you can make some noise next year, get some excitement back, give Jefferson and whoever some playoff experience, and maybe get some guys who want to play for you, not having the likes of KG rejecting a trade. I agree with Rivers on him being happy about the rotation flexibility, and you don't have a disgruntled superstar. Let's face it, the team doesn't get elevated without the #1 or 2 (I don't even think Sea is going anywhere) pick


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

narrator said:


> I'm not sure why you're upset. We agree on that point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what do you suggest? Keep Green, West and Wally? That'd be another season where I could barely watch the games.

The only reason why I went to Celtics games this past season is to watch them lose and keep yelling "Fire Rivers." (Of course the occasional overpriced beer also helped.  )


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

aquaitious said:


> So what do you suggest? Keep Green, West and Wally? That'd be another season where I could barely watch the games.
> 
> The only reason why I went to Celtics games this past season is to watch them lose and keep yelling "Fire Rivers." (Of course the occasional overpriced beer also helped.  )


No, more like fire Ainge and deal Pierce and start over. The Celtics are screwed whether they make a trade for Allen or not. This trade just narrowed the window for success to 2-3 years. Does anyone actually believe the Celtics have a chance to go deep in the playoffs or even win it before Ray Allen turns 35? If they don't do anything this year or next year, the team will just have to go into rebuild mode in 2010. Just fire Ainge, the Celtics are not going anywhere as long as he's at the helm.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> No, more like fire Ainge and deal Pierce and start over. The Celtics are screwed whether they make a trade for Allen or not. This trade just narrowed the window for success to 2-3 years. Does anyone actually believe the Celtics have a chance to go deep in the playoffs or even win it before Ray Allen turns 35? If they don't do anything this year or next year, the team will just have to go into rebuild mode in 2010. Just fire Ainge, the Celtics are not going anywhere as long as he's at the helm.


If they close on Garnett they certainly will.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> If they close on Garnett they certainly will.


The NBA just don't work this way. You don't just jam a bunch of stars from different places and expect to win rightaway. It didn't work the Rockets, it didn't work for the Lakers, it didn't work for the Dream Team when they were matched against real oppositions, and chances are it's not going to work for the Celtics.

But if it does happens, heres to the Celtics winning a chip this decade. If they don't get it done, expect another 5-10 year rebuilding period after the dust settles.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, and Al Jefferson

or

Al Jefferson...

Take your pick. If Boston doesnt make this move, Pierce is likey shipped out of Boston and Ainge has even more young talent to do nothing with. Al Jefferson and Brandan Wright would make a great combo... Not.

The fact of the matter is... Pierce, Allen, and Jefferson can contend for the ECFs. If Ainge doesnt make this move, which I think was a good one, Boston goes down the crapper even more.

To say the Celtics are the laughing stock of the NBA after this trade is completely ill advised.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

I'd say Allen and Pierce are both upper second-tier players.
Jefferson is ranked where in bigmen? Or even just overal players?

First tier is your dominant superstar, your Wade, Lebron, prime Shaq, etc..

Second tier is your excellent supporting cast player, Pippen, Garnett, Ginobili etc.

Third Tier is starter quality on a championship team, but no better than the third option, closer to 4th or 5th. This includes specialists, such as Ben Wallace or Bruce Bowen. Jefferson COULD be this. It's arguable.

Fourth tier, quality players but not really championship material unless the roster is stacked. Now, I see Jefferson as being this, until Boston get a better guard and center - he can improve, and both those pieces would help him improve even more.

Until Jefferson improves, or the overall quality of the roster improves, I just don't see the Celtics going anywhere. Outside of Jefferson, the bigmen kinda suck. (Perkins is decent, but not exactly good - would he start on the Spurs over Oberto?)
Gomes is decent, but best served as a backup.
Rondo has the potential to be good. I see him as more like jacque Vaughn (with better playmaking) than Tony Parker (minus the shot) though.
Gerald Green. Well, he could develop into a decent 6th man, or even a starter somewhere down the road (not with Allen and Pierce though).
Tony Allen - good defensive guard, decent slasher. But a bench player, especially with Pierce/Allen.

Now, who else is there on the Celtics?
Noone that's gonna put them over the Pistons, Bulls, Cavaliers.
You have two good outside shooters (luckily, they can both create for themselves as well). Pierce is a good slasher, so he can draw open looks for Allen. Jefferson could get double-teamed in the post too, so that creates looks for Pierce/Allen.
Outside of them, how is the team gonna score or get easy looks?

The Spurs have three guys that create open looks - Manu, Parker and Duncan. Their centers are average, but Duncan can also play there so it doesn't matter (and Horry is a good backup).
Their starting SF is an excellent defender, and also can capitalise on the open looks he gets - Rondo cannot.

I'm with seifer0406 - the Celtics simply aren't good enough to contend, at least with getting rid of Pierce you get some picks, allowing you to build for the future. 
Imagine if instead of dealing #5 etc to Seattle, you dealt Pierce to Minnesota.
Pierce for Davis, #7 and filler (maybe throw in #5 but get back Foye?)
(this would be before the Mike James for Juwan Howard trade)

The Celtics would still have Green, Jefferson, Tony Allen, Rajon Rondo, Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, and Kendrick Perkins.
At #5 they take Jeff Green - he becomes the starting small forward (backed up by Green/Gomes)
at #7 they take either Noah or Brandan Wright (Noah to play alongside Jefferson at either C or PF, Wright if you think Jefferson is a C)
Let's argue they take Wright.

In 3 years, they still have all these players. Let's say they've converted their draft picks into a defensive bigman (such as Jason Collins), a shooter at the swing spots (think Morris Almond type) and garbage (future picks, cash, etc)


Jefferson/Perkins/'Collins'
Wright/'Collins'/Gomes
J.Green/Gomes/'Almond'
G.Green/T.Allen/D.West
D.West/Rondo

That team, in 5 years, has a chance of contending for the Eastern Conference title.
The team you currently have will struggle to do so in the next 3 years, after which they'll have to do all this anyway, but with worse picks!

I think the Allen deal is only good if you genuinely believe the Celtics can win the East. And I just don't think they can.
Added to this, they have no cap, so can't improve the team either.

The main players are too old to be able to "make a run at the playoffs, then next year they'll have more experience". They can't grow. Young teams can afford to be patient (as Bickerstaff was showing in Charlotte, till Jordan messed it all up). Young Teams can get decent, make the playoffs, and THEN trade for a veteran to put them over the top (like the Bulls have - 1st round, add Wallace, 2nd round)


I'll say this though - Allen and Pierce will be valuable trade chips. Pierce can contribute in a Finley-like manner when his contract expires/is in the last year, so he'll have value.
And Allen, well, that's some cap for ye! (or draft picks, whatever)


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

mrsister said:


> *I don't understand why people think Allen is nearing the end of his prime. 32 is not that bad. Let's look at some of the top players in the league:*
> 
> Tim Duncan - 31
> Kevin Garnett - 31
> ...


First off, I'm not saying this is a good or bad trade because frankly I have no idea. I'll have to see once the season starts, but the bolded part is because Allen is 32 like you said. Is coming off injuries too BOTH ankles. We will have too see how those hold up, if they do good trade for the Celtics. If not, it could _finally_ be Ainge's head.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> The NBA just don't work this way. You don't just jam a bunch of stars from different places and expect to win rightaway. It didn't work the Rockets, it didn't work for the Lakers, it didn't work for the Dream Team when they were matched against real oppositions, and chances are it's not going to work for the Celtics.


The Dream Team had no real competition, I believe Croatia managed to lose one of the games by twenty odd points, which represented the high water mark. If by the Lakers you mean the 2004 squad, they, you know, made the NBA Finals, you might think that failure, but if that's failure, I'll take that sort of failure any day of the week over the "success" of the Ainge Error. They only lost because they played one of the better defensive squads in league history at a time when the handchecking rules were working in the defense's favour. As for the Rockets, they have two stars and a load of crap. Their biggest problem against Utah last year was the fact that they had no one to cover Okur. Their PF was 6'4" Chuck Hayes, who couldn't block Okur's shots and couldn't so much as slow Boozer down. At least they now have a 6'8" PF (Landry).



seifer0406 said:


> But if it does happens, heres to the Celtics winning a chip this decade. If they don't get it done, expect another 5-10 year rebuilding period after the dust settles.


The simple fact is that they have four to five years to win anything. Basketball isn't democracy, it's fascism. Those with the most powerful weapons win. 15 of the last 16 NBA title winners featured Timmeh, Shaq, MJ, or Hakeem. The Celtics don't have a dominant player like that on their roster, and thanks to the events of May 22 have no way of acquiring that sort of transcendent talent. Garnett's about as close as they can get to a talent like that. If they hope to win anything it has to be now, so they may as well take their shot. By the time Pierce got old the Celtics would have no chance at a title anyway. Their kids just aren't that good.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

This trade looks good for Present Ainge - Ray Allen for Jeff Green won't look that bad in history I believe. 

But Future Ainge will still get crucified for this, no doubt. I guiess it just depends who you roll with.. Future Ainge or Present Ainge?


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

aquaitious said:


> So what do you suggest? Keep Green, West and Wally? That'd be another season where I could barely watch the games.
> 
> The only reason why I went to Celtics games this past season is to watch them lose and keep yelling "Fire Rivers." (Of course the occasional overpriced beer also helped.  )


No, getting rid of Wally's (I've given up trying to spell his last name) contract was a good move. Trading Delonte West (who is very, very overrated) was also a good move. Getting Ray Allen back is the iffy part. I'm just not convinced it's a good move, mainly because of his ankles and his age. Boston created a 2-3 year window and that's it. If they barely make the playoffs and get smoked in the first round, was it worth keeping Pierce and dealing for Allen and not firing Ainge and Rivers? That's the ceiling for this team: just making the playoffs.

Yelling "Fire Rivers" sounds like fun, though. :biggrin:


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Currently, I expect that the Celtics will likely win their first-round series, barring injuries, but if Ainge can sign someone like Mo Williams for the mid-level exception and trade for an interior defender like Jeff Foster, the Celtics can realistically make the Eastern Conference Finals, at the very least.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

Carroll and Kapono get over 20 million, but Maurice Williams is gonna settle for the MLE?
Hell, it looks like he may have to, Atlanta and Memphis both drafted pg's. 
I still think he'll end up going back to Milwaukee, for this year at least.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

i am SICK AND TIRED of hearing about allens age and ankles...hes only had 2 seasons where he hasnt played a full season in his career...its not like hes injury prone a la raef and wally...and omg its the end of the world because he turns 32 in 2 weeks...does anyone realize that we traded a 30 year old guy with no legs along with a career role player and ANOTHER 19 year old or however old jeff green is for him...none of which we wanted or needed...its not like we traded al jefferson for ray allen...his ankles are fine his jumpshot is perfect and he is a great addition to this team...from last years team we basically lost delonte and added ray allen, i dont see how this is a bad thing at all


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

Dude, you can't just ignore the #5 in a strong draft..

Btw, when were these 2 seasons?
And when was his last surgery?


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## Basketball (May 24, 2006)

different_13 said:


> Dude, you can't just ignore the #5 in a strong draft..


I don't think he was ignoring it, just making the point that the #5 pick in this draft wasn't that helpful to the Celtics.

We already have young, developing players at PG (Rajon Rondo), the wing (Gerald Green) and PF (Al Jefferson). Therefore, who would we get at #5 that would not be redundant?


different said:


> Btw, when were these 2 seasons?
> And when was his last surgery?


Btw, was there anything structurally wrong with Ray Allen's ankle that caused the surgery?

What was the surgery in fact for?


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

Premier said:


> Currently, I expect that the Celtics will likely win their first-round series, barring injuries, but if Ainge can sign someone like Mo Williams for the mid-level exception and trade for an interior defender like Jeff Foster, the Celtics can realistically make the Eastern Conference Finals, at the very least.


different_13 is right: Williams won't settle for the MLE, at least not in a new place. There is a market for him, which should be obvious. If he has to re-sign with Milliwakay, I don't think he'll mind. And I'm absolutely positive he'd prefer that to Boston at this point in time.

I'm not sure Jeff Foster is the answer re: interior defense... though I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time).


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> i am SICK AND TIRED of hearing about allens age and ankles...hes only had 2 seasons where he hasnt played a full season in his career...its not like hes injury prone a la raef and wally...and omg its the end of the world because he turns 32 in 2 weeks...does anyone realize that we traded a 30 year old guy with no legs along with a career role player and ANOTHER 19 year old or however old jeff green is for him...none of which we wanted or needed...its not like we traded al jefferson for ray allen...his ankles are fine his jumpshot is perfect and he is a great addition to this team...from last years team we basically lost delonte and added ray allen, i dont see how this is a bad thing at all


:cheers:


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

Basketball said:


> I don't think he was ignoring it, just making the point that the #5 pick in this draft wasn't that helpful to the Celtics.
> 
> We already have young, developing players at PG (Rajon Rondo), the wing (Gerald Green) and PF (Al Jefferson). Therefore, who would we get at #5 that would not be redundant?
> Btw, was there anything structurally wrong with Ray Allen's ankle that caused the surgery?
> ...


The surgery was to remove bone spurs. Not for any structural damage to the ankle.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

different_13 said:


> I'd say Allen and Pierce are both upper second-tier players.
> Jefferson is ranked where in bigmen? Or even just overal players?
> 
> First tier is your dominant superstar, your Wade, Lebron, prime Shaq, etc..
> ...


You really underrate Jefferson. He put up 16 and 11 this year. And he's still young. He'll be a top big man in the league next year, not to mention one of the top in the East. Who's the East got? An aging Shaq, Jermaine O'Neal, who Celtics fans would never trade Jefferson for, I'll give you Bosh, and Dwight is arguable. You say he's worse than Bowen? Are you kidding me? And Ben Wallace? The guy who's specialty is rebounding and defense, but Jefferson got more rebounds and Wallace can't guard 1 on 1. 

The Spurs have 3 guys that can create open looks, Duncan, Parker and Ginobili. The Celtics have Pierce, Allen and Jefferson. So the Celtics aren't as good as the Spurs. That's not much of a statement. You don't have to be as good as them to make it out of the East. Cleveland had Lebron and a bunch of below average players.

How would you know that Brandan Wright would pan out? And Jeff Green will never be as good as Pierce or Allen.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

I fail to see how the Celtics would be better off keeping Wally Szczerbiak, Delonte West and Jeff Green, then they are by adding a All-Star player.

The Celtics are a laughing stock because they've upgraded their roster.

As we've seen last year, the team was going nowhere but to high lottery picks, I doubt that Jeff Green would have turned the franchise around.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

Basketball said:


> What was the surgery in fact for?



BONE SPURS!!! Almost certainly non-recurring


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## Basketball (May 24, 2006)

LX said:


> The surgery was to remove bone spurs. Not for any structural damage to the ankle.





silverpaw1786 said:


> BONE SPURS!!! Almost certainly non-recurring


Yes, that was my point.

No reason at all to say or suggest that Ray Allen is injury prone or past it.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

i dont think that most of these people who keep bringing up his ankles actually know what bone spurs are and how harmless they are, especially once they are removed...its just a way to bash allen and claim that hes washed up


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## cgcatsfan (Jun 10, 2005)

Well, They obviously didn't check his STATS for last year before they started bashing. I'm pretty cool with someone that averaged 26.4 PPG and has a 90% FT avg. 4.5 rebounds/game, 4/1 assists, 1.5 steals, and he's been in the top 10 FT% 9 of the last 10 years. 
I'm delighted with this year's draft choices and trade. 
Bone spurs?? BAH!!

I seriously question the statement "you can't ignore a #5 in a STRONG draft". We didn't have a shot at Oden, Durant or Horford. The superstar thing has yet to be proven for anyone else. We don't need more "potential".
I think trading away Rudy Gay last year at #7 was FAR worse as a choice. 

Onward and upward!


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

narrator said:


> Ray Allen is a nice player. He'd be a great complimentary player for the next three years. Except Boston wants to turn on the wayback machine and pretend it's 2001 and Allen's just entering his prime.



Do some research, Allen's stats have done nothing but go up since 2001. 
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3080


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

aquaitious said:


> I fail to see how the Celtics would be better off keeping Wally Szczerbiak, Delonte West and Jeff Green, then they are by adding a All-Star player.
> 
> The Celtics are a laughing stock because they've upgraded their roster.
> 
> As we've seen last year, the team was going nowhere but to high lottery picks, I doubt that Jeff Green would have turned the franchise around.


I agree that the Allen move was a good one. I'm just wondering if the Celtics would have drafted Jeff Green if they kept the pick. They drafted for Seattle, so that wasn't really their pick. You think they might have gone after Yi or something? Boston doesn't have the biggest Asian market, but it's still pretty big. I don't think Yi would have complained.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

It's very simple - no matter who we would have drafted.

Keep the pick = trade Pierce.
Trade the pick = keep Pierce.

Clearly we chose to keep Pierce and upgrade our team at the same time.

We now have Pierce and Allen. Were able to keep Big Al and Rondo. We are more attractive to other quality vets with at least 2 allstar level players. And we still got some nice young players in this draft.

It was a great move.


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