# Nimreitz Mock 2.0



## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Throw in a few rumored trades here and there for fun. Why not right?

*1. Los Angeles Clippers - Blake Griffin*

*2. Memphis Grizzlies - Hasheem Thabeet*

Honestly, I just don't see them taking someone other than Thabeet. Unlike the Thunder and their ridiculous "we like Westbrook at PG" schtick, the Grizzlies actually are telling the truth about Mayo. Thabeet brings great post defense, which they don't have right now, and they can address depth needs later in the draft.

*3. Oklahoma City Thunder - Ricky Rubio*

They've been blowing a nonsense smoke screen about not wanting to take Rubio because of Westbrook, but Ricky's visiting OKC and he's definitely the best player left.

*4. Sacramento Kings - Jrue Holiday*

They really want Rubio, and Rubio really wants to go to Sacramento. Well not all perfect situations end up happening, sorry Kings. Holiday is clearly their backup plan; they've had him in once and are bringing him in for a second look.

*5. New York Knicks (Trade with Wizards) - Stephen Curry*

Tough to know what's going to happen here, but it will almost certainly be a trade. At this point I think the Knicks make the most sense since they really want Steph Curry and could give the Wizards the #8 pick plus something else.

*6. Minnesota Timberwolves - Tyreke Evans*

There's a pretty strong promise rumor here.

*7. Golden State Warriors - James Harden*

Doesn't seem to make much sense they have a logjam at the wings, but with Curry, Evans, and Holiday all off the board the Warriors can't get great value at point guard. Plus the other wings could be part of a potential Baron Davis trade. What also makes Harden attractive is that he can shoot and with that ridiculous wingspan he'll be a good defender if he wants to be.

*8. Washington Wizards (Trade with Knicks) - Jordan Hill*

Hill is a solid player and can really help out the Wizards front court next year.

*9. Toronto Raptors - Demarr Derozan*

Raptors need help on the wing and Derozan can be a pretty good player in a few years if not immediately.

*10. Milwaukee Bucks - Johnny Flynn*

Bucks are going to need a lot of help, but Flynn is the only player left on the board who would fill a need, and also brings some maturity to the table.

*11. New Jersey Nets - Brandon Jennings*

Probably looking at either a PG or Dejuan Blair, but the big guy's height and bad knees are a major concern. Jennings may or may not be a star immediately, but I don't think the Nets are going to be contenders next year no matter who they draft. Plus Harris said he'd be fine if they took a PG because they play with 2 PGs on the floor a lot anyway.

*12. Charlotte Bobcats - Gerald Henderson*

Pretty common mock pick.

*13. Indiana Pacers - Eric Maynor*

Need a point guard and from here it's just a matter of preference. Who really knows who they'll take.

*14. Phoenix Suns - James Johnson*

Not really sure why, but he's a good combo forward type of guy who can run, but also put in work in the post. Good fit for the Suns.

*15. Oklahoma City Thunder (Trade with Pistons) - BJ Mullens*

RUmor that the Thunder will take on some salary and the #15 pick so the Pistons can make a strong run at a few free agents. I buy it. Plus, this way the Thunder have now added their future PG and C in the same draft, assuming either one even scratches their potential.

*16. Chicago Bulls - Tyler Hansbrough*

Let's just move on.

*17. Philadelphia 76ers - Ty Lawson*

Need a point guard, 76ers like him.

*18. Minnesota Timberwolves - Terrence Williams*

Can play both wing positions. There's no one aside from point guards that you can count on as a starter at this point in the draft and Blair could never work with Love and Big Al, but Williams is a workout warrior right now, going on the road and taking on all comers.

*19. Atlanta Hawks - Dejuan Blair*

I think they'll resign Bibby with ease and won't target a PG here. Blair slides because of his knees, but ends up somewhere he won't be needed to jump in right away and provide all that much, but if he's good he can seize a lot of playing time.

*20. Utah Jazz - Sam Young*

I'm still completely convinced that this pick is destined to happen.

*21. New Orleans Hornets - Gani Lawal*

They definitely need front court help after that draft debacle a few years ago.

*22. Dallas Mavericks - Earl Clark*

Would be a good jack of all trades type to bring off the bench.

*23. Sacramento Kings - Austin Daye*

Guy with really good potential, but needs a year or two to bulk up. Kings can afford to take a project since they'll suck next year anyway.

*24. Portland Trailblazers - Omri Casspi*

They don't really have a ton of needs and certainly aren't afraid of taking foreign players. Casspi has REALLY impressed in the run up to the draft, so he makes a lot of sense here. Frankly this is probably his basement.

*25. New York Knicks (Trade with Thunder) - Jack McClinton*

A future protected pick or an option to swap along with some cash would probably get this pick for the Knicks. Thunder don't really need it because they already have added two guaranteed rookie contracts for next year. There are rumors that the Knicks are trying to get a pick at the end of the first for McClinton.

*26. Chicago Bulls - Jeff Teague*

Combo guard who can spell Rose and maybe give some minutes off the bench at shooting guard which would be necessary if Ben Gordon bolts.

*27. Memphis Grizzlies - Chase Budinger*

Gotta grab the next Mike Miller when you have a chance right?

*28. Minnesota Timberwolves - Roderique Beaubois*

They don't really need 3 rookies next year, so why not take a guy who can develop overseas for a year or two. And if the Foye/Evans experiment doesn't work out, hey you have a point guard in France.

*29. Los Angeles Lakers - Darren Collison*

Would be kind of funny to see two UCLA point guards running the show for the Lakers, but Collison could work well in LA. He's a very good three point shooter, and he plays solid defense. The Lakers don't really need much more than that from a PG.

*30. Cleveland Cavaliers - Wayne Ellington*

They need someone who can make a god damn clutch three pointer; that's Ellington's specialty.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Distinct possibility Hill could drop to 11. Nets wont pick Jennings. Its either Flynn, Clark, Lawson or Teague. If Hill is there at that spot, they'll take him. Hansbrough's too high, Clark's too low.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Curry at 5? I don't think Knicks will need to trade up to get him...


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

HB said:


> Distinct possibility Hill could drop to 11. Nets wont pick Jennings. Its either Flynn, Clark, Lawson or Teague. If Hill is there at that spot, they'll take him. Hansbrough's too high, Clark's too low.


You've known me long enough to know that I bump threads where people make predictions. If the Nets take anyone else it's getting brought up.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Gotcha. I just know their preference is a point or some guy dropping like Lopez last year.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

HB said:


> Gotcha. I just know their preference is a point or some guy dropping like Lopez last year.


But not a point who drops like Jennings?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Jennings is a 2 guard


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Clark at 22. No way, not in this draft. Kings already have a project in Donte Greene (who plays the same position), they will not be taking another one in Austin Daye. Greene is a better player than Daye is as well.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

HKF said:


> Clark at 22. No way, not in this draft.


Hey I'll take that :bsmile:

Although I don't think he will fall out of the lottery and even that might be a stretch.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

HB said:


> Jennings is a 2 guard


Somewhere some Jennings might be, Brandon is a point guard.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Its more likely for the GSW to pick Jennings than Harden. Harden's not an uptempo player.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> I don't think Knicks will need to trade up to get him...


That's not what several legit draft sites are saying


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

HB said:


> Its more likely for the GSW to pick Jennings than Harden. Harden's not an uptempo player.


And why would they pick Jennings if he is not a point guard ?


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

TM said:


> That's not what several legit draft sites are saying


I guess Golden state would want him but I don't see why Wizards or Twolves would want Curry...

Arenas and Curry might be the most boneheaded/trigger happy backcourt since Franchise/Starbury.

In Minny they want to pair Carney and Curry???

Ellis and Curry might be dangerous but it is very undersized and they will get killed on D.


I fail to see something here...


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

croco said:


> And why would they pick Jennings if he is not a point guard ?


I didnt know they were looking for a point. Especially when names like Harden and Derozan have been linked to them.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

HB said:


> Jennings is a 2 guard


Really?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

He's 6'1, probably why he will play point, but he's not a natural 1.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

HB said:


> He's 6'1, probably why he will play point, but he's not a natural 1.


How is he not a natural 1? Looked like a gifted passer with good vision and handles when I saw him play...


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> I fail to see something here...


I've been failing to see it with Curry as well, but until some team pays me to evaluate players, I'd rather get the picks right.



HKF said:


> Clark at 22. No way, not in this draft. Kings already have a project in Donte Greene (who plays the same position), they will not be taking another one in Austin Daye. Greene is a better player than Daye is as well.


Good call on Donte Greene, forgot about him. Shoddy research on my part.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

If Ellington drops to the end of the first round, I will hope and pray that the Lakers keep their pick and take him. He could grow into a great backup for Kobe, and his contract would be much more reasonable that Vujacic's.

Taking Ellington could free us up to deal Vujacic to a team like Orlando (for AJ and Redick), San Antonio (for K. Thomas and Mahinmi) or Boston (for Scalabrine and T. Allen).

Collison would be a solid pick, though. I'd be happy with him or Patrick Mills.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

Dornado said:


> How is he not a natural 1? Looked like a gifted passer with good vision and handles when I saw him play...


pretty much

You might be alone on this one HB.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

I'm not a big fan of this draft to be honest. Only way Knicks bother to trade up is if they want to grab Jrue. Trading up 3 spots to get Steph Curry is wasteful and completelyl unnecessary IMO.

Clark will not drop that far. I'd be shocked if he was on the board when Atlanta picks, and if he is I don't see why they wouldn't pick him.

I like Wayne Ellington as a fit for the Cavs, I really do. I just have a feeling he's going to go a lot higher than people are expecting. I could easily be wrong though. Supposing he does get picked higher however, I would expect the Cavs to follow a similar train of thought and pick Marcus Thorton, someone who I am suprised not to see in your mock.

And HB do not be silly, Jennings is NOT a 2 guard.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Nimreitz said:


> I've been failing to see it with Curry as well, but until some team pays me to evaluate players, I'd rather get the picks right.


Because for the Knicks, Curry = _even better_ shot at Lebron come next offseason. Mike D'Antoni knows what he's doing.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Scoring points are not true pg's in my book.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

How many games have you seen him play this year ?


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

HB said:


> Scoring points are not true pg's in my book.


I agree as well, however that doesn't make him a 2 guard.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

He isn't even a score first point guard unless you're stuck in 2007. Every highly regarded high school point guard can be considered score first, pass second becazse they want to and need to score.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Jennings did some growing up overseas croco, that isn't a secret. He is a sick ball handler, and a good passer. However, he has fantastic offensive ability and that's what makes him such a commodity.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

GregOden said:


> Jennings did some growing up overseas croco, that isn't a secret. He is a sick ball handler, and a good passer. However, he has fantastic offensive ability and that's what makes him such a commodity.


Isn't that a positive ?


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

TM said:


> Because for the Knicks, Curry = _even better_ shot at Lebron come next offseason. Mike D'Antoni knows what he's doing.


That MIGHT make sense if it was just the Knicks who are gangbusters about Curry, but it seems like it's the entire league.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

croco said:


> Isn't that a positive ?


Most definetly. But that also will earn him the label as a score first PG.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

By that definition, every point guard in the NBA would be score first.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

There's a difference between wanting/liking to score and being forced to score. 



> He isn't even a score first point guard unless you're stuck in 2007. Every highly regarded high school point guard can be considered score first, pass second becazse they want to and need to score.


Not Lawson, and yes he was a highly touted high school point guard.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

croco said:


> By that definition, every point guard in the NBA would be score first.


How so? I agree that there are only a few true PGs in the league nowadays, but that certainly doesn't make every point guard in the NBA a score first PG. 

Jennings prefers to be a scorer, and he plays that role well.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

GregOden said:


> How so? I agree that there are only a few true PGs in the league nowadays, but that certainly doesn't make every point guard in the NBA a score first PG.
> 
> Jennings prefers to be a scorer, and he plays that role well.


I don't like the term to begin with. Where is the border between a score first and pass first ? Shouldn't it rather be "make a good decision" ? That implies both, if you are in a position to get a good shot off, then try to score. If the defense allows you to make a pass, then pass the ball to a teammate. It's not quite as simple, but you get the idea.

Guys like Chris Paul or Deron Williams are able to do both, that is why they are being considered the two best point guards in the NBA - not because they like to pass the ball. They make a good and more importantly the right decision in the overwhelming majority of situations. If you can do that, you truly are a point guard in the best way. Passing the ball for the sake of passing is just as bad as dominating the ball and scoring inefficiently.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

HB said:


> Not Lawson, and yes he was a highly touted high school point guard.


He means when they were in High School. And it's not really fair to talk about Lawson with everyone else anyway because he played at Oak Hill where there are guys on the bench who will get high major schollies.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I am not sure about the present crop of high schoolers, but guys like Calathes, Rondo all came down the high school pipeline and they arent score first pg's.

Paul and Williams look to create first before scoring. Which would make them pass first guards.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

HB said:


> Scoring points are not true pg's in my book.



:laugh::laugh:


Jennings isn't just a scorer, I don't know what the hell gave you that inclination. Have you ever seen him play? The kid has the best handle in the entire draft, as good a court vision as anyone, and when he has been put in the position has proven to be one hell of a true PG. At Oak Hill he was asked to score, his last year or so of AAU he was asked to score. He played on the same AAU team as Taylor King, Kevin Love, Renardo Sidney, Chase Budinger, Daniel Hackett, etc. and was a pass-first PG. To call him a scoring PG shows you don't know what the hell your talking about.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

They had a game of theirs on NBA TV not too long ago, though to be honest he wasnt dominating the ball, but I didnt come away thinking I was watching a pass first point. Here's a lil tidbit I stumbled upon on his DE page.



> That’s not to say that everything is all rosy at this point with Jennings’ game—he still has a significant amount of work to do on his decision making skills and shot-selection before he can be considered an efficient point guard. While it’s obviously not fair to compare his stats as a rookie in the Euroleague and Italian league with that of his NCAA counterparts, the fact that he’s shooting just 38% from the field on the season can’t be viewed as a positive.


Now I wonder why a 'true point' would have his decision making questioned.

And in discussing his strengths



> The best things that Jennings brings to the table, though, definitely can’t be taught. He’s incredibly fast in the open floor, highly fluid getting up and down the floor, and extremely natural changing directions sharply and attacking the rim. In today’s NBA, where speed is absolutely at a premium like at no other point in time, Jennings has game changing potential as a shot-creator. Look no further than the way a relatively unheralded player like Aaron Brooks has been able to put his stamp on this year’s NBA playoffs for evidence of how valuable a speed demon like Jennings can be in the right offense.


Though to be objective they do praise his play making ability



> What separates him from the Aaron Brooks’ and Monta Ellis’ of the world, though are his playmaking instincts. His talent and creativity with the ball were always evident in the games, scrimmages and practices we saw, as he sees the floor and is capable of making incredibly difficult passes look easy, in a way that no point guard in this draft not named Ricky Rubio can. Over the course of our three days in Rome, we saw Jennings make a handful of mind-blowing plays that hint of an incredible future that is in store, particularly in transition or running the pick and roll.


Sounds a bit like Rose, though I dont consider Rose a pass first point either.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HB said:


> I am not sure about the present crop of high schoolers, but guys like Calathes, Rondo all came down the high school pipeline and they arent score first pg's.
> 
> Paul and Williams look to create first before scoring. Which would make them pass first guards.


Now you're just making **** up. Rondo dominates the ball as badly as Starbury did when everyone whined about Stephy. Passing the ball isn't always a good decision. This is why many "pure, pass first point guards!!!" like Brevin Knight suck donkey dongs, while evil combo guards like Dwyane Wade and Deron Williams are amongst the best players in the game. 

Rajon Rondo for all his passing ability couldn't hit Sasha Grey in a bukkake video and ends up dribbling around aimlessly and wasting possessions. Worse, his decision-making can be so bad that he wastes possessions in such a matter that the blame falls on his teammates. Watch how many times that Rondo dribbles out the first 12 seconds of the shot clock (in the postseason) before making a bailout pass to Pierce or Allen so that they get stuck with the responsibility of creating a quality shot in a drastically shortened clock. Better yet, when they have Doc miked up listen to how many times he shrieks, at the top of his lungs, "Shoot the ****ing ball, Rondo"


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

HB said:


> Now I wonder why a 'true point' would have his decision making questioned.


you did mention rondo as a "pass first" pg, didn't you?


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

HB said:


> Now I wonder why a 'true point' would have his decision making questioned.



Just wanted to point something out. You can be a true PG and have some of your decisions questioned, based on perhaps forcing some passes or not having timing down on certain types of passes, or taking a few bad shots. IMO those things don't have as much to do with being a scoring first PG, is it an area for improvement? sure, not all "pass first" or "true" PGs are great, all-knowledgable and super efficient at what they do when they are in high school. Some young Points get a little out of control in terms of tempo, and forcing the issue (even with passes), which tends to calm down with age and experience, at least for the good-great ones. 

Basically i can definitely see that as a problem or an initial weakness of a "scoring" PG, as well as a "pass first" PG.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Umm Rajon Rondo played as a pass first point at Kentucky. He looked to get people involved before looking for his shot (granted he couldnt hit anything when presented with the opportunity), but there's a reason why he was compared to Kidd by some.

Good point Rather_Unique.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

HB said:


> Umm Rajon Rondo played as a pass first point at Kentucky. He looked to get people involved before looking for his shot (granted he couldnt hit anything when presented with the opportunity), but there's a reason why he was compared to Kidd by some.
> 
> Good point Rather_Unique.


and people question his decision making, something you said shouldn't happen with a pass first pg.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

There's no error free player in the league, but if thats where most of a point's flaws lie, its a huge problem. I'd wager to say, Rondo's lack of an offense is a bigger problem than his decision making in regards to passing.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HB said:


> Umm Rajon Rondo played as a pass first point at Kentucky. He looked to get people involved before looking for his shot (granted he couldnt hit anything when presented with the opportunity), but there's a reason why he was compared to Kidd by some.


Patrick Sparks was Kentucky's point guard. They moved Rondo to the 2. Much the way that UCLA shifted Jrue Holiday to the 2.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol Patrick Sparks was the designated 3 point shooter, if he played the 1 its because he was too short to guard the 2 position. Point duties were definitely Rondo's job. If you have any qualms with that, queue the OT game with Mich. State.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Patrick Sparks was allowed to handle the ball because, unlike Rondo, he could shoot the ball (and thus the other team had to defend him). Also, unlike Rondo, his teammates liked and trusted Sparks to do the right thing with the ball.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

One of the reasons why Tubby was booted off the campus (and there are many) was because they claimed he utilized the talent on the squad wrongly, this was after Sparks was gone btw. Rondo, Randolph, Crawford and Bradley were all playing slow down basketball when they should be getting out and run. Now why would Rondo excel in that type of situation, when his strengths lie in rebounding the ball and getting down the court. Sparks was content bringing the ball up and shooting, dude was lead footed and he sure as heck wasnt a creative passer.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Thing is, if you have to run a transition offense for a guard, you're essentially admitting that the guard in question isn't any use come the postseason when opponents tighten the defensive screws. 

At the end of the day the whole "true point guard" thing is a myth. The guy that basically invented the position was as trigger happy as they came. Some of the greatest PGs in history were "evil scoring guards". Oscar and his heir, Tiny, for example, were both evil scoring guards. There is no "right way" to play the position, and really, guys with complete games are better than those without. Even if the one is a "pure, pass first point guard!!!" and the other is "just a scoring guard".


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

It boils down to making the right decision. Selfishly chuck the rock, or get your teammates involved. On the other hand being too passive can be a detriment to the team.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Yeah, that Dwyane, he's too selfish to ever succeed in the NBA.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Wade played shooting guard at Marquette. Lol and thats quite a disingenuous argument to make, considering combo guards like Baron Davis, Marbury and Stevie Franchise havent done much in the league. Why take the one guy who is the exception and then forget about the many crash and burns?


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

HB said:


> They had a game of theirs on NBA TV not too long ago, though to be honest he wasnt dominating the ball, but I didnt come away thinking I was watching a pass first point. Here's a lil tidbit I stumbled upon on his DE page.


It's how they use him, and how he has been used for the past 4 years now. In High School no one could stay in front of him, and he could finish at the rim, and was a streaky shooter. You would be a fool as a coach to ask him to look to pass first at that level. Doesn't mean he is purely a scoring PG it just shows he has been asked to use his skills to help the team put the ball in the basket. In Europe I highly doubt his coach is asking him to be a pass first type of guy off the bench, or even trying to help him develop as much as the other players on his team because Jennings is gone after a year.


Just because you think he is purely a scoring PG doesn't mean he is a 2 guard. Making him play on the wing takes away his entire skillset. The kid is quicker than lightning, he can absolutely jump (watch some of the dunks he has thrown down), he has a great handle, and he can pass with pretty much anyone. He is absolutely a PG in every sense of the word, and he will be a successful one, possibly more so than any other PG in this draft. His success will be determined by how much his jumper improves. His current skillset is more than enough that with some coaching he will be a masterful pass first PG in the NBA. He isn't Gilbert Arenas, Chauncey Billups, Allen Iverson (although he does have some similar abilities to Iverson), or other scoring PG's. He is more in the Steve Nash, Kenny Anderson mode.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

HB said:


> Wade played shooting guard at Marquette. Lol and thats quite a disingenuous argument to make, considering combo guards like Baron Davis, Marbury and Stevie Franchise havent done much in the league. Why take the one guy who is the exception and then forget about the many crash and burns?


All those guys are crash and burns? Just because they didn't have much team success doesn't mean they weren't good individual players. Davis obviously had weight issues (and knee troubles), and Francis and Marbury are both nimrods but all 3 enjoyed a good amount of success in the league. All 3 were multiple time all-stars, and were consistently among the best in the league in scoring, and passing.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I guess it depends on what qualifies as success. But besides Wade, do you really think any coach worth his ilk, will tell a budding player to be like Francis, Marbury or Davis? Doubt it. Franchise is out of the league. Marbury is a bench player who might not even be in the league next year. Davis is a serious underachiever.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

There was nothing wrong with their skillsets though. Davis had weight issues and knee problems, while the other two had serious attitude problems. Neither had a skillset an NBA team would turn down. If you find a kid with similar skills with better a attitude and motivation you wouldn't want them on your team? Francis was a 20 PPG game guy, Marbury averaged 20 and 8 in his prime (only other guy was Osscar Robertson to carry those averages), and Davis was an all-star who was a terrific player in his own right. If i'm a GM and I find a 6'2"-6'4" guy who is athletic, can handle the ball, score, and pass the ball pretty decently without all the baggage those 3 carried around I take them in a heartbeat. I really don't see what this has to do with Jennings though, as he appears similarly talented and with a much better head on his shoulders.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

HB said:


> I guess it depends on what qualifies as success. But besides Wade, do you really think any coach worth his ilk, will tell a budding player to be like Francis, Marbury or Davis? Doubt it. Franchise is out of the league. Marbury is a bench player who might not even be in the league next year. Davis is a serious underachiever.


in their primes, hell yes, any coach would want players like them on their team.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

It doesnt have anything to do with Jennings, the convo just evolved into that. And yes, those 3 did have the athletic tools and they are fun to watch, but besides attitude, they never understood the 'right decision' aspect of the game.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Decision-Making? How does that even relate to being a crash and burn? They were all all-stars and pretty successful individual players over the course of their careers. A crash and burn is someone like Sebastian Telfair, Sam Bowie, Kwame Brown, etc (guys who got selected high, or had a ton of hype and never amounted to anything). Davis, Francis, and Marbury aren't what most people would call crash and burns.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

How are they not crash and burns when their careers are pretty much at a standstill? Franchise is done. Marbury is close to that. Davis luckily for him, signed a pretty hefty contract and should stick in the league for a while, but no one's counting on these guys to take them to the promised land. Former all stars who are being tossed around the league isn't something to write home about. Telfair and Kwame are doing better than most of those guys, at least they still have roles.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

They have slowed down or are out of the league, but your talking about the tail end or the worst years of their careers. For the majority of their time in the league they were all-star caliber players. 


The only player Bassy/Kwame are doing better than is Francis solely based on Francis being out of the league. Marbury is a backup on a team that would be playing tomorrow night defending their title if KG was healthy, and Davis is still a starter and still a solid player. Bassy gets minutes solely because Minnesota well sucks, and their backcourt is a crapshoot. Brown barely gets any minutes and has been the biggest bust in recent memory. I don't see any difference between a washed-up Marbury, Davis, or even Francis and a Telfair or Kwame playing at their best. Telfair is at best an average NBA player (and even now isn't better than Davis and isn't much better than Marbury if at all), and Brown no matter how you slice it is a terrible NBA player.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Would Vin Baker classify as a crash and burn or because he was a former all star not have that apply?


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