# What's in a name? - Sebastian Telfair



## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Warning:
Many of you will find this ridiculous.

I believe that if Sebastian Telfair was named Fred Smith and hailed from Kansas City instead of New York, no-one would know who he was and he would not even have considered declaring for the NBA Draft.

You have to admit that Sebastian Telfair is maybe the best NAME in the history of basketball. It rolls off your tongue. It sticks in your mind. It is unique without being weird. 

Scouts and GMs are human beings who are susceptible to psychology. Guys whose names stick in their brains come up in their thoughts and conversations more often.

Especially when the New York hype machine is there to throw the name in front of you every week.

*

What attributes exactly does Telfair have that project him to EVER be better than Jameer Nelson is TODAY?

Jameer Nelson's ONLY flaw is that he is short. So is Telfair, but at least Nelson is STRONG. Telfair is built like a 12-year old boy.

Like I said b4, Telfair has a CHANCE to be as good as TJ Ford by the end of his first NBA Contract. 

Jameer Nelson could very easily have a Damon Stoudamire career. That may not be HOF, but it is way better than the average #13 pick.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

The chances are if his name was Fred Smith and from Kansas City and had the same exact skills he may not have been a first round pick out of high school. His blood lines and place of residency made him a big name in high school basketball when he was in just 8th grade. He only got bigger as the time went on. 

To say he is built like a 12 year old boy is silly, the kid is 5'11 and 170 pounds, how many 12 year olds are built like that? How many high school kids at 5'11 are 170 pounds of muscle? I don't get why people are trying to tear down Sebastian he is as a nice a kid your going to meet. 

Sebastian will be better than TJ Ford by the end of his 2nd season maybe the end of his 1st. So many people have no idea how good Sebastian really is. I remember 6 or 7 months ago when people were calling Sebastian, TJ Ford with a jumpshot now all of sudden he can't shoot. He had a couple of off games during his school playoffs and an off game in the Hoop Summit and now he's a bad shooter. It's like people totally forgot about his televised games when against Darius Washington and Edgewater on ESPN2 and the game against Dwight Howard, when Sebastian was knocking down Js. In those games he combined for 57 points and 16 assists, but all of sudden he can't score?


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

He did average 32 points a game and that is pretty good. 

But I agree look at highschoolers taken

Garnett and Curry are Chicago Boys

Chandler is from LA

Howard and Smith are from Atlanta

These are all big places where the players would get noticed.


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## Matthew Maurer (Oct 17, 2002)

> Garnett and Curry are Chicago Boys


Well Garnett his senior year could be called a Chi Town player but his fr-jr years were at Maudlin High School in SC...


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

When I first heard Bassys name, I :laugh:'ed

I think that you might have a point however. I dont think he would necessarily be a basketball unknown if his cousin wasnt stephon marbury, and he was from kansas, but I dont think he would be a lottery pick in this years draft. He would have had to have a year or two of college to get his name out there, instead of the new york "hype machine".


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> To say he is built like a 12 year old boy is silly, the kid is 5'11 and 170 pounds, how many 12 year olds are built like that? How many high school kids at 5'11 are 170 pounds of muscle?


It's called _hyperbole_.

My son, incidentally, is 5-11 and 150, with NO fat, and he is 14.



> I don't get why people are trying to tear down Sebastian he is as a nice a kid your going to meet.


Nothing personal. I just think the scouts and GMs need to read _Moneyball_.



> Sebastian will be better than TJ Ford by the end of his 2nd season maybe the end of his 1st.


:rotf:



> So many people have no idea how good Sebastian really is.


AGREED! But I'm not sure I mean it the way you do. 

No HS point guard has ever been taken in the first round. I think it will take some time to absorb everything to run an NBA team. It's a very steep learning curve to tackle. A little easier to make the transition for a player like Amare Stoudamire.

I'm sure he's an NBA player, if he gets brought along properly, and has the patience to learn. It will be the hardest thing he has ever done in basketball, going from superstar to know-nothing.


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## Derrex (Jul 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> 
> 
> It's called _hyperbole_.
> ...



Congratulations.. I now know of 1.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

It's funny, isn't this almost exactly what Darius Washington Jr's dad said in today's New York Daily News?



> Sebastian Telfair would not have been selected in the first round of last week's NBA draft had he been from anywhere other than New York City, the father of a rival point guard said yesterday.
> "Take him out of New York and put him in North Carolina or somewhere like that, or put him in a gym where nobody knows his name, and he's just another kid," Darius Washington Sr., whose son was one of Telfair's biggest rivals, told the Daily News yesterday.
> 
> Darius Washington Jr., a point guard from Orlando, is heading into his freshman year at Memphis and not into the NBA like Telfair, a first-round pick of the Portland Trail Blazers. Though Washington decided to go to college instead of the NBA, he could make the jump after just one year at Memphis, his father said.
> ...


LINK


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> My son, incidentally, is 5-11 and 150, with NO fat, and he is 14.


Who cares?

The original question was in regards to someone who was 5-11, 170, and 12.

Your son is 20 lbs light and 2 years older so he doesn't fit the criteria...


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> 
> 
> It's called _hyperbole_.
> ...


You obviously don't like Sebastian's game for whatever reason, so you obviously won't think he'll pass TJ Ford so quick (which he will). How many times have you seen Sebastian play, please tell me you have seen him other times then just a couple of all-american games.


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## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> 
> You obviously don't like Sebastian's game for whatever reason, so you obviously won't think he'll pass TJ Ford so quick (which he will). How many times have you seen Sebastian play, please tell me you have seen him other times then just a couple of all-american games.


TJ Ford, McDonalds All-American, College All-American, led a team to the Final Four.

Telfair. McDonalds All-American. Tore up a few summer camps (so did TJ). Recruited to a top 25 school (so was TJ).

Then when considering how they play, I'm not sure why Telfair is going to be better. Either way, I don't think you know nearly enough to be making comments about in 2 years how one is going to pass the other. Telfair will be younger. I'd even go as far to argue he's less athletic (not unathletic, just less). Either way, unless you have a Delorian with a Flux Capacitor, your statements are garbage. Unless you can support them.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PhillyPhanatic</b>!
> It's funny, isn't this almost exactly what Darius Washington Jr's dad said in today's New York Daily News?
> 
> 
> ...


Everything I have seen from DW's dad sickens me. No wonder that kid is a 30 ppg 6apg type of highschool PG.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Springsteen</b>!
> 
> 
> TJ Ford, McDonalds All-American, College All-American, led a team to the Final Four.
> ...


TJ is more athletic, TJ is actually a freak athlete, but I feel Sebastian is going to be a special player, while TJ is just going to be a great passer. 

What is the point of having a forum about basketball if it's "garbage" to state your opinion on two players in the future? 

By the way TJ never tore up camps the way Sebastian did. Sebastian would've been the best player at ABCD camp as a sophomore if it wasn't for a guy named LeBron.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PhillyPhanatic</b>!
> It's funny, isn't this almost exactly what Darius Washington Jr's dad said in today's New York Daily News?
> 
> 
> ...


darius washington's dad is Richard WIlliams times 10!!! I cant stand the guy. I remember watching the Washington vs Telfair game on ESPN, and his dad was cheering like there was no tomorrow when Darius hit the shots, and he looked so lost when Telfair led his team back after injuring his leg, ahahah i just wanted to laugh at washington's daddy's FACE!!!!!

HIs son is a friggan PG, so the fact that Jr's daddy admits he doesnt pass as well as Bassy speaks volumes. The only thing jason kidd does better than baron davis, marbury, francis, is pass and he's head and shoulders, hands down, the best PG out of the 4.

The fact that his son doesnt pass as well means he isnt as good a team player and he doesnt have the trust in his teammates that they can knock down shots. I remember in that game darius took so many stupid shots, he made iverson look like a true PG. And towards the end when the game was decided and Lincoln HS was shooting ft's to ice the game darius starts yelling and going off on the officials. GImme a break, his son isn't better. If telfair all of a sudden decided heck i dont feel like passing, he'd show he can score just as much as darius. Jr is cocky as hell, even Josh Smith said so on the Fox Sports Net adidas hs bball special documentary program they had where they followed howard, smith and darius. 

Sebastian knows what to say, when to say it and how to win. While C-Bass is at home in Brooklyn where someone in his building got shot to death, Darius was busy chilling in Orlando, so you dont even need to know whose the more mature person. Only reason darius went to memphis was prolly cuz they told him you can shoot all you want and not pass at all. Sooner or later darius needs a coach who'll get in his face and tell him to get his act straight and that he's not "the man" everywhere he goes, then maybe we can talk about him and telfair in the same sentence. 

It's ridiculous to say Sebastian got all the attention cuz he's from ny. Dwight Howard's is a devout christian from ATL!!!!! LeBron's from cleveland, not exactly big city bball towns. Telfair gets attention cuz he plays flashy, gets the job done, and wins. The fact that telfair garners all this attention and still stays grounded, also speaks volumes. Daddy Washington's just jealous.


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## QRICH (Feb 2, 2004)

Finally someone defending Telfair. I saw that game, Telfair isn't only a better passer, he penetrates the lane better and is quicker. D.Washington isn't even close imo.


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## Vermillion (Mar 23, 2004)

I agree with the name sentiment. Telfair's name is just so smooth and wicked. 

Admittedly 20% of why I liked him in the 1st place, and up to now.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Who cares?
> ...


perhaps you did not read or understand, the word _hyperbole_

If you look at Telfair next to, say, Jameer Nelson, & GILBERT ARENAS, he does kind of look, well, very BOY-ISH.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Hey, Joe Smith got hyped up to be the #1 pick. It must've been his fancy name, right?

Does anyone think he was TOO good for college? I doubt it.

But the fact is that many things and details about him sort of pushed him to enter the draft. It happens. JR Smith made his shots in the All-American game and he declares. Beno Udrih got to shine in Chicago and became a first rounder.

If Telfair was Bobby Thomas of Omaha, Nebraska his hype would be different. If Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill were healthy their careers would be much different. But they are what they are.


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

NBA teams will not draft a player just because of the hype from where he's from.

Some fans might be drawn to a player because of that, and on the flip side, many fans hate him because of it.

But NBA teams will not draft a player just because of his name. Thats ridiculous to suggest.

Telfair possesses awesome quickness, agility, and acceleration. He has fantastic ball handling ability, great court vision, and is unselfish. He can penetrate at will and put the ball in the hole. And despite what you want to read about his jumper, its not as bad as many make it out to be. The kid has beautiful form on his jumper, and shot 45% from downtown in high school. So he's a little inconsistent - Big deal. What HSer isnt? People started questioning his jumper and it snowballed into people saying it is horrible. That couldnt be further from the truth. 

The only knock on Telfair is that he doesnt possess great size. But, neither do Damon Stoudamire, Mike Bibby(who is only 1" and 10lbs heavier, despite being what, 10 years older?), Bobby Jackson, Allen Iverson, etc ... The size issue is overblown.

Telfair is underrated. People have tried knocking him so bad just because he's an NYC point guard, and its turned into everyone trying to knock him for absolutely ridiculous reasons. The kid is going to be a fantastic pro.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RD</b>!
> But NBA teams will not draft a player just because of his name. Thats ridiculous to suggest.


AFAIK, nobody suggested that.


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

Thats exactly what you are suggesting.

You are saying if he had a different name and was from a different area, he would not have been drafted as high as he was.

In other words, that is suggesting than an NBA team was drafting him purely off of his hype(and when I said off his name, I wasnt suggesting the name Telfair, I meant off of the hype).


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

Better PG longterm Telfair or Chris Paul?


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

Telfair, by far.


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## Vermillion (Mar 23, 2004)

Telfair most definitely. And not just because of the killer name.


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## swift88 (Jul 4, 2004)

telflair got game....he's just like his cousin but quicker and bounces more...

I bet the Clippers had difficulties on deciding which pg to pick...Telflair or Livingston. They picked Livingston hoping because defensive wise. But Telflair is very explosive, much like Wagner from the Cavs, he might win the rookie of the year ....


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

It wasnt difficult for the Clippers at all. 

Livingston was a Top 5 lock, and Telfair was a borderline lotto talent.

There was no difficulty in that choice. 

I am higher on Telfair than most, but even I wouldnt have taken him at 4 in the draft.


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## Pistolballer (May 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Springsteen</b>!
> 
> 
> TJ Ford, McDonalds All-American, College All-American, led a team to the Final Four.
> ...


man back to the future is cool


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

It is a great name but it's a negligible factor compared to his game. 

I thought TJ Ford would turn out to be a good point guard, and he played pretty well as a rook. And I think Telfair will do much the same.

Is Bassy ready to start from day one? No, probably not. Guards coming out of highschool have plenty to learn and he should benefit from healthy backup minutes to start his career. For all we know, he could be one of the better PG backups in the league next year. He's good and he's only going to get better, I don't see what not to like.


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Springsteen</b>!
> 
> 
> TJ Ford, McDonalds All-American, College All-American, led a team to the Final Four.
> ...


That's true. Telfair probably had an outstanding high school career, but TJ Ford had a pretty good one on his own. Didn't his team Willowridge won like 70 games in a row?


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RD</b>!
> Thats exactly what you are suggesting.
> 
> You are saying if he had a different name and was from a different area, he would not have been drafted as high as he was.


Yes, that is what I implied. That he would not have been drafted AS HIGH.

And what you previously said was:


> Originally posted by RD!
> But NBA teams will not draft a player *just because of his name.* Thats ridiculous to suggest.


I NEVER remotely suggested that he was drafted JUST because of his name. 

I suggested that his NAME may have had SOME INFLUENCE on his draft.

Why do rock and movie stars change their names?


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## Im The One (Sep 1, 2002)

Two words

God Shamgod


To bad he could play worth a damn


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is exactly what you said. 

What I meant by saying his name, was the hype that his name has generated, not simply the name Sebastian Telfair. 

What you said was:



> I believe that if Sebastian Telfair was named Fred Smith and hailed from Kansas City instead of New York, no-one would know who he was and he would not even have considered declaring for the NBA Draft.


Therefore, you said that he was drafted where he was solely on hype and his name. That comes damn close to suggesting he was drafted off his name. In fact, its the exact same thing.

When you say a player is drafted off his name, it implies he is drafted off of everything his name means - The actual name along with the hype it has generated. When you think of Sebastian Telfair, you dont just think of an unusual name, you think of a great basketball player(at the HS level as of now). So when I say a player is drafted off his name, I am not saying just off the letters in his name. Im talking about everything that goes with it - And the hype from his game goes with it, when you say he was drafted off his name.

Its like saying Vince Carter is a superstar only because of his name. His name isn't anything special, but the hype he generated earlier in his career has made his name a superstar name in the minds of people. You think of the special talents Carter has when you say his name, you dont think of the letters and how unusual his name is.

You are implying that Sebastian Telfair was drafted off his name and hype, and that is blatantly obvious in that quote above. You can't change your tune now.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

:sigh:

I suggested, and still do, that Telfair's draft position IMPROVED due to his hype, and further, that his hype was not hurt by his wickedly cool name.

I suggested that it is possible that a similarly talented athlete playing in a backwater might not even get known well enough to declare for the draft out of HS.

You put words in my mouth. You added the word "solely". 

I NEVER said or IMPLIED that Telfair was the sole product of hype. 

As you correctly stated, that would be absurd.

Obviously he can play, and obviously the teams drafting him have seen that he can play.

BTW, why do rock stars and movie stars change their names?


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

Rock stars and actors are completely different than basketball players.

They are all about entertainment, and their image is as big as their talent. They can change their names to make it sound better.

The NBA there is a realism about competition. You arent out there worrying about what fans think about you necessarily. You're out there to be a great player and win first.

The fickleness of the acting and music world is shown by them changing their names to create an image for them. They think they have to do that to become popular. There is nothing even remotely close to that in the league.

If athletes and rock stars were the same, how come Joe Smith didn't change his name? 

It's not the same thing. Its a whole different world. You can't compare the two.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

You might be argumentative.



I wonder if he was born Sebastian Telfair, or changed his name to create, you know, the IMAGE of a dynamic young point guard.

If his name was Ivan Gotfungusfoot, would he have a multi-milliion$ Adidas contract?


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kezersoze</b>!
> Better PG longterm Telfair or Chris Paul?


Chris Paul! There has yet to be a successful little man come straight from high school, and there is a reason for this. I can't talk too much about Telfair (I've barely seen him play) but just because he is younger than Chris Paul does not mean he has more potential. 

Springsteen was right on with the TJ Ford comparisions, people have a stereotype that because he was drafted straight from high school his potential has no bounds. His game has more flaws than most PG's drafted in the lottery, but only time will tell if he's worth the hype.


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> Chris Paul! There has yet to be a successful little man come straight from high school, and there is a reason for this.


Yeah, the reason is because nobody has ever done it before.

The first high school guard to be drafted fell because no other guard had made the jump. The Lakers look pretty good taking that chance on Kobe at 13(I know Charlotte took him, but they drafted him for the Lakers).



> Springsteen was right on with the TJ Ford comparisions, people have a stereotype that because he was drafted straight from high school his potential has no bounds. His game has more flaws than most PG's drafted in the lottery, but only time will tell if he's worth the hype.


He's Ford with a J. Telfair is not a bad shooter, and is already an infinitely better shooter. Ford with a jumper would be one of the Top 5 points in the NBA. So saying he's Ford really isn't a bd thing.

Telfair really doesn't have many flaws in his game. He's a great ball handler, great passer, with great court vision. The only questions around his game are his inconsistent J(but he still has one, shot 45% from downtown) and his size. Thats not too many holes in your game. His size problem is overrated, and name one HSer that hasnt had an inconsistent jumper in his game.

I actually think Chris Paul and Telfair have comparable upsides. If Telfair has size issues, Paul has the same ones, as he's the exact same size. I think Telfair will be the better passer and distributor, but Paul will bring a bit more scoring punch. Both will be great point guards in the league.


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## Petrostar (Jul 11, 2004)

Yeh true, ive read alot about Seb Telfair he sounds like a great player i hope he can live up to the hype like LBJ. He can make it, Tj Ford proved size isnt an issue, but hey his got awesome hops like that put back dunk in college. or him at the slam dunk McD's slam contest with James White. Jameer Nelson was a STEAL for Orlando, he'd be a great backup for Francis.
They can make it definately with hard work, Telfair but shouldnt be disappointed straightaway if all doesnt go well, he'll need time to develop in 2 - 3 years he will be a solid starting pg if he develops his shot especially a 3 and bulk ( which will happen easily with time).


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## Nejc (May 6, 2004)

I have a question, but i won't start a new thread since it's about Sebastian Telfair.

Has anybody ever seen Bassy dunk, i am just curious?



Thanks


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> Chris Paul! There has yet to be a successful little man come straight from high school, and there is a reason for this. I can't talk too much about Telfair (I've barely seen him play) but just because he is younger than Chris Paul does not mean he has more potential.
> ...


why are people comparing him to chris paul?? telfair is a true pg, Paul is a scorer, the only thing common is their position and height, but not their games.


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## ChrisGags (Jul 8, 2004)

I am going to agree with the Mad Viking in one aspect and that is that media hype can help with prospects draft spot. This is not to say that a kid will be drafted just on name alone, he has to have some talent already, but sometimes the if two players are close, the hype can help. 

I like Telfair because he is unselfish. His shooting is not excellent but he showed a marked improvement from Junior to Senior year and this should continue if he has the work ethic. Mo Cheeks will help to mold him also. I will take a PG that can pass over one that can shoot any day. Someone made the point that Kidd can't shoot that well but is considered better than Steve Francis and Barron Davis who are shoot first PGs. 

The reason Telfair was taken above Jameer is purely on potential. Jameer has more muscle on Telfair but the heights are equivalent. Telfair is the better passer while Jameer at this time is the better shooter. You can improve on shooting with coaching and practice, but court vision is something that is natural. Most GM's will look and think to themselves these days "if player A and player B are pretty close in comparison to eachother at this time and player A is 4 years younger, then I'll take player A and hope he has more upside". Does it mean that Telfair will be better than Nelson, of course not. But he could be. Nobody will know for a few years. A PG coming out as a high schooler is going to be tough. Leading a high school team is one thing, leading a college team is significantly more difficult, and leading a pro team is even harder. Both Telfair and Livingston will need a few years to live up to potential. Livingston needs to hit a weight room in the worst way (couldn't bench 185 even once). Telfair is in the better situation with Mo Cheeks unless the Clips resign Doug Overton and use him to mentor Livingston as he did last year with Jameer, but that seems unlikely at this point. Telfair shot horribly in the all-star games but had 11 assists in one of them I believe so we know the kid can pass, but most people only saw the all-star brick show not realizing that he can actually shoot and was an excellent scorer for Lincoln. 

The draft is one big crapshot though so we will see who is the best in a couple of years. Once last note on the media hype, most of the high school players drafted in the first round are not from major cities, they are usually from small towns that are within 45 minutes of a city at best. Kwame Brown and Smith are both from tiny Georgia towns and there have been several kids from Mississippi drafted and the media hype from any Mississippi city would have about zero effect on a draft position (no offense to people from Mississippi intended).


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nejc</b>!
> I have a question, but i won't start a new thread since it's about Sebastian Telfair.
> 
> Has anybody ever seen Bassy dunk, i am just curious?
> ...


This is a very good question, I have actually never seen him dunk, but I have seen him get high enough on lob passes and rebounds that I can say he can dunk if he wants to. I have been told by people that he dunks easily with two hands, but he is by no means TJ Ford as far as hops.


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## RunToFreeForFly (Jul 16, 2003)

You see. Mad viking guy prove my point. many nba players have "ll" in their name. scout like "ll". 
e.g.

Armstrong, Darrell
Bell, Raja
Bell, Troy
Butler, Mitchell
Cassell, Sam
Hassell, Trenton
Russell, Bryon
Sprewell, Latrell

the "ll" thing simulate the nerve of scouts.

Telfair has "el". not too bad.


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## RunToFreeForFly (Jul 16, 2003)

The above theory even prove why there are so many freaking willium out there. not there. no. 

people even regard alvin william as the future HOF(know from some threads in the intelligent bbb.net) just because the"ll" factor.


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