# If the Cavaliers win the title this year...



## Smallballs (Nov 19, 2008)

I brought this up in another thread but it wasn't answered, and I think this is a question that deserves its own topic.

Hypothetically, if the Cavaliers were to win the championship this year (not inconceivable), how would you rate that achievement in terms of LeBron's career and his legacy? How would you compare that hypothetical championship run to Wade's title, and those won by Kobe? 

I don't want to make too many assumptions about how LeBron would perform in this hypothetical Finals series, so let's just say, he does whatever you think he would have to do, in order for the Cavaliers to win it all. That leaves it up to your opinion of the Cavaliers' team.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

It will probably rated higher then Wade and Kobe's because he didnt' have Shaq. In considering reality, it would probably match Wade as Shaq wasn't "Shaq" in Miami. Both Lebron and Wade probably will be considered better then any of Kobe's title runs though as the Lakers were really led by Shaq or if want to be obstinate co-Shaq led teams.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

He would absolutely own the basketball world. Considering he would have to go through the Celtics to get to the finals, then would have to beat Kobe and the Lakers to win the title, it would be remarkable. 

Probably more Jordan-esque than anything even Jordan did. LeBron-esque. It would be the equivelant of Jordan beating both the Celtics and Lakers in the 80's.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Not quite that but yeah, it would be really amazing if he did do it and considering the road he would have to go on to get there, it would be better then the Kobes/Wade.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It would be the equivelant of Jordan beating both the Celtics and Lakers in the 80's.


So... Isiah-esque? Zeke-esque? Piston-esque?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

It would be on par with D Wades championship. People forget but the Heat were not the favorite when they won the title. Pistons were favored, and in the finals the Mavs were favorites to win. Heat proved a lot of people wrong.


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## Smallballs (Nov 19, 2008)

23AJ said:


> It would be on par with D Wades championship. People forget but the Heat were not the favorite when they won the title. Pistons were favored, and in the finals the Mavs were favorites to win. Heat proved a lot of people wrong.


So in your view, is Wade's role on that Heat team is equal to LeBron's role on this current Cavaliers team?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Smallballs said:


> So in your view, is Wade's role on that Heat team is equal to LeBron's role on this current Cavaliers team?


Easily. LeBron has all the pieces now, it's just up to him to carry his team to glory. Just like D Wade had all the pieces in 06.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

23AJ said:


> It would be on par with D Wades championship. People forget but the Heat were not the favorite when they won the title. Pistons were favored, and in the finals the Mavs were favorites to win. Heat proved a lot of people wrong.


Heat were the favorites when Detroit faced them in the Conference Finals. They had taken care of business manhandling the Nets and Detroit had struggled to a 7 game win over Cleveland. Probably 70% of pundits were favoring the Heat, citing the fact that Wade was healthy that year unlike the year before when he was injured. However, the Mavericks were definitely the favorites in the Finals over them.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Considering this title team would have the biggest disparity between 1st and 2nd best player ever....I'd say he'd be the man. But one title isn't going to firmly vault him above Kobe or Wade.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

ChrisWoj said:


> Heat were the favorites when Detroit faced them in the Conference Finals. They had taken care of business manhandling the Nets and Detroit had struggled to a 7 game win over Cleveland. Probably 70% of pundits were favoring the Heat, citing the fact that Wade was healthy that year unlike the year before when he was injured. However, the Mavericks were definitely the favorites in the Finals over them.


I stand corrected. However I'm correct about the finals. D Wade and the Heat proved a lot of people wrong, especially being down early in that series. And the whole the West is the best conference etc Heat made it happen though. A great championship for them.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> Considering this title team would have the biggest disparity between 1st and 2nd best player ever....I'd say he'd be the man. But one title isn't going to firmly vault him above Kobe or Wade.


I believe the disparity between Shaq and Wade in the finals would probably be more a disparity, and to top that off, Mo Williams is extremely talented.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Nah. Shaq was still a 20-10 player, but his presence alone was probably worth more than an above average player's production.

Mo Williams is good, but he wasn't more valuable than Shaq was that year. I'm chuckling even typing that out.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Why does every thread containing just one bit of Dwyane Wade have to be related with the 2006 Finals as of late :banghead:


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

23AJ said:


> I believe the disparity between Shaq and Wade in the finals would probably be more a disparity


No. Just no. Stop while you're ahead with the statement that Mo Williams is talented this part... might want to pretend it never happened.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

ChrisWoj said:


> No. Just no. Stop while you're ahead with the statement that Mo Williams is talented this part... might want to pretend it never happened.


Um, you may take my statements personal. However I wouldn't if I were you, just because I disagree with someone, Anyways IMO Mo Williams if reached the finals this year, would play much better than Shaq, and have more of an impact on the Cavs winning the title than Shaq had on the Heat in the 06 finals.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

Dre™;5800595 said:


> Nah. Shaq was still a 20-10 player, but his presence alone was probably worth more than an above average player's production.
> 
> Mo Williams is good, but he wasn't more valuable than Shaq was that year. I'm chuckling even typing that out.


yup!people really comparing mo williams impact with shaq in 06? rofl


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

I've heard everything now: Mo Williams has more of an impact then Shaq did for Miami. :lol:

I wonder why everyone gets the need to knock Miami. It's not like they were a lottery team. The year prior the team went to the ECF and many people had them winning it till Wade got hurt. 

Miami had one of the best 1-2 combos at center. I had a thread that year were I put up Mourning was maybe the best backup center of all time and Shaq was still a 20-10 player. They also had a very good combo at PG: with Payton being a good PG to Jason Williams. Add in Walker, Haslem, Posey (everyone realizes how good Posey is now as a role player after the Celtics) and that team had talent. Sure they weren't the absolute favorites to win the title but it's not like they were a surprise towin.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> I've heard everything now: Mo Williams has more of an impact then Shaq did for Miami. :lol:
> 
> I wonder why everyone gets the need to knock Miami. It's not like they were a lottery team. The year prior the team went to the ECF and many people had them winning it till Wade got hurt.
> 
> Miami had one of the best 1-2 combos at center. I had a thread that year were I put up Mourning was maybe the best backup center of all time and Shaq was still a 20-10 player. They also had a very good combo at PG: with Payton being a good PG to Jason Williams. Add in Walker, Haslem, Posey (everyone realizes how good Posey is now as a role player after the Celtics) and that team had talent. Sure they weren't the absolute favorites to win the title but it's not like they were a surprise towin.


If anyone read's my posts in context. They will see I'm talking about the performance and play Shaq had in the finals series against the Mavs. Enough said.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

Pioneer10 said:


> I've heard everything now: Mo Williams has more of an impact then Shaq did for Miami. :lol:
> 
> I wonder why everyone gets the need to knock Miami. It's not like they were a lottery team. The year prior the team went to the ECF and many people had them winning it till Wade got hurt.
> 
> Miami had one of the best 1-2 combos at center. I had a thread that year were I put up Mourning was maybe the best backup center of all time and Shaq was still a 20-10 player. They also had a very good combo at PG: with Payton being a good PG to Jason Williams. Add in Walker, Haslem, Posey (everyone realizes how good Posey is now as a role player after the Celtics) and that team had talent. Sure they weren't the absolute favorites to win the title but it's not like they were a surprise towin.


qft:lol::lol::lol:


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> I've heard everything now: Mo Williams has more of an impact then Shaq did for Miami. :lol:
> 
> I wonder why everyone gets the need to knock Miami. It's not like they were a lottery team. The year prior the team went to the ECF and many people had them winning it till Wade got hurt.
> 
> Miami had one of the best 1-2 combos at center. I had a thread that year were I put up Mourning was maybe the best backup center of all time and Shaq was still a 20-10 player. They also had a very good combo at PG: with Payton being a good PG to Jason Williams. Add in Walker, Haslem, Posey (everyone realizes how good Posey is now as a role player after the Celtics) and that team had talent. Sure they weren't the absolute favorites to win the title but it's not like they were a surprise towin.


By the way many people on these boards were claiming the Heat the worst championship team ever after they won the 06 title. Funny how peoples attitudes change a few years later. Ahem.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

23AJ said:


> By the way many people on these boards were claiming the Heat the worst championship team ever after they won the 06 title. Funny how peoples attitudes change a few years later. Ahem.


There's only been a few teams to win the title in the last 20 years: Houston, LAL, Detroit, SAS, and Boston last year.

Of those teams Miami and Houston are the weakest. There is no disgrace in that: put in other words if Dallas won they would be considered weaker then those other teams as well. Being a contender in a season is far different then comparing a team in history.

Of course I think Shaq in Miami is worth more then Mo Williams so what do I know


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

23AJ said:


> If anyone read's my posts in context. They will see I'm talking about the performance and play Shaq had in the finals series against the Mavs. Enough said.


rofl what a pathetic argument. W/o Shaq Miami wouldn't have even gotten to the Finals. 
It's kind of sad how you feel you have to find anyway to diss Cleveland that you have to raise Mo Williams (and I like Mo) in comparison to Shaq.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

23AJ said:


> If anyone read's my posts in context. They will see I'm talking about the performance and play Shaq had in the finals series against the Mavs. Enough said.


But... um... you're wrong.

Shaq in the 2006 NBA Finals:
61% FG
10.2 Reb
2.9 Ast
.9 Blk
13.7 Pts

Mo Williams all the time:
45% FG
3.3 Reb
4.1 Ast
.8 Stl
15.8 Pts

Shaq in that Finals is better than Mo Williams is all the time. Mo Williams is not going to magically turn into a top-tier second banana Scottie Pippenesque player just because the NBA Finals roll around. Shaquille O'Neal in the 2006 NBA Finals was HANDS DOWN a better player than Mo Williams.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> rofl what a pathetic argument. W/o Shaq Miami wouldn't have even gotten to the Finals.
> It's kind of sad how you feel you have to find anyway to diss Cleveland that you have to raise Mo Williams (and I like Mo) in comparison to Shaq.


Hardly, but it's funny your so defensive regarding my opinions about players.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

23AJ said:


> By the way many people on these boards were claiming the Heat the worst championship team ever after they won the 06 title. Funny how peoples attitudes change a few years later. Ahem.


One of the worst of the past couple of decades, definitely not a worst-of-all-time candidate as there are definitely far worse champions. They were a great team, no doubt about it they were the BEST team that year. But put them against virtually all other championship teams of the last two decades and they have a hard time standing up to the standard. Its possible to argue they were better than Detroit's 2004 team. But that is only one team. In over 20 years. Houston is a step above them both, though, I disagree with Pioneer there.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

23AJ said:


> Hardly, but it's funny your so defensive regarding my opinions about players.


lol: keep trying. Defensive means that I'm worried about my own opinion: you can keep digging your own hole. I'm just having fun pointing out how deep your digging it.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

ChrisWoj said:


> But... um... you're wrong.
> 
> Shaq in the 2006 NBA Finals:
> 61% FG
> ...


Right, but that's horrible stats wise for Shaq. And IMO Shaq was on the bench during some of the most crucial moments of the Finals. There's a reason why D Wade was the finals MVP. And guy's like Zo and Posey, Walker have some of the most memorable moments in the finals. So you can stick to your guns and believe Shaq was something dominate in the finals, but in reality he was merely average, and IMO wasn't a major factor why the Heat won the finals.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

ChrisWoj said:


> One of the worst of the past couple of decades, definitely not a worst-of-all-time candidate as there are definitely far worse champions. They were a great team, no doubt about it they were the BEST team that year. But put them against virtually all other championship teams of the last two decades and they have a hard time standing up to the standard. Its possible to argue they were better than Detroit's 2004 team. But that is only one team. In over 20 years. Houston is a step above them both, though, I disagree with Pioneer there.


I just don't think that first Houston team was any good. Thorpe was an underrated PF but after that they just had bunch of role player. Cassell is obviously a top notch talent but he was only a rookie back then. Beyond that guys like Horry, Elie, Maxwell, and Smith were nothing special.

I think Miami with Wade and there center combo has more top talent and then a bunch of roleplayers similar to Houston. I actually think Detroit in 04 is stronger then both by a margin


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> lol: keep trying. Defensive means that I'm worried about my own opinion: you can keep digging your own hole. I'm just having fun pointing out how deep your digging it.


If your taking any enjoyment in seeing anyone as you put it "digging your own hole" than you have some insecurities you need to deal with. Good luck with that.

And on that note, I believe I made my case. And have no problems believing in my judgement. Even if the majority disagrees with it.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

You should've stopped at "right". It doesn't matter how that is statwise for Shaq, if he was better than Mo, he was better than him, period.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> I just don't think that first Houston team was any good. Thorpe was an underrated PF but after that they just had bunch of role player. Cassell is obviously a top notch talent but he was only a rookie back then. Beyond that guys like Horry, Elie, Maxwell, and Smith were nothing special.
> 
> I think Miami with Wade and there center combo has more top talent and then a bunch of roleplayers similar to Houston. I actually think Detroit in 04 is stronger then both by a margin


There's this dude they had named Olajuwon. I hear he was pretty good with the ball in his hands! Haha... Dude it was Olajuwon (3rd greatest C of all time), an underrated Thorpe, and some very solid role players.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> You should've stopped at "right". It doesn't matter how that is statwise for Shaq, if he was better than Mo, he was better than him, period.


Please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't do. Your entitled to your opinion as much as I am to my own. I deserve that basic fundamental respect in a debate wether you agree or disagree with me. I give it to these other guy's regardless of the fact they see it different than me. I can respect your opinions, but it doesn't mean I agree with them.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

23AJ said:


> If your taking any enjoyment in seeing anyone as you put it "digging your own hole" than you have some insecurities you need to deal with. Good luck with that.
> 
> And on that note, I believe I made my case. And have no problems believing in my judgement. Even if the majority disagrees with it.


:worthy: How can I argue with such logic? :sarcasm:


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Right, but that's horrible stats wise for Shaq. And IMO Shaq was on the bench during some of the most crucial moments of the Finals. There's a reason why D Wade was the finals MVP. And guy's like Zo and Posey, Walker have some of the most memorable moments in the finals. So you can stick to your guns and believe Shaq was something dominate in the finals, but in reality he was merely average, and IMO wasn't a major factor why the Heat won the finals.


He was on the floor for 46 minutes in the crucial game 5. The only times he wasn't on the floor was when Dallas had to foul to try to hang onto games. In no way did that strategy cost the Miami Heat. Additionally, although Shaq was not the younger version of himself, I *proved to you statistically* that he was considerably better than Mo Williams could hope to be. Regardless of whether or not he is his dominant self he was _better than Mo Williams_ and the numbers back it up.

Can you provide ANY PROOF AT ALL to back up any of the ideas you have put forth? If you can, I would love to see them. If not, you're wrong. You're simply wrong.


-Chris.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

ChrisWoj said:


> He was on the floor for 46 minutes in the crucial game 5. The only times he wasn't on the floor was when Dallas had to foul to try to hang onto games. In no way did that strategy cost the Miami Heat. Additionally, although Shaq was not the younger version of himself, I *proved to you statistically* that he was considerably better than Mo Williams could hope to be. Regardless of whether or not he is his dominant self he was _better than Mo Williams_ and the numbers back it up.
> 
> Can you provide ANY PROOF AT ALL to back up any of the ideas you have put forth? If you can, I would love to see them. If not, you're wrong. You're simply wrong.
> 
> ...


Yeah it's called the eyeball test, and in my judgement Shaq was terrible in the finals. Stats really don't tell the whole story.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

ChrisWoj said:


> There's this dude they had named Olajuwon. I hear he was pretty good with the ball in his hands! Haha... Dude it was Olajuwon (3rd greatest C of all time), an underrated Thorpe, and some very solid role players.


Ohh I'm not knocking on Hakeem but say in a one on one matchup with Miami: I think Wade/Zo/Shaq is better then Hakeem/Otis/Smith?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't do. Your entitled to your opinion as much as I am to my own. I deserve that basic fundamental respect in a debate wether you agree or disagree with me. I give it to these other guy's regardless of the fact they see it different than me. I can respect your opinions, but it doesn't mean I agree with them.


I'm not sure why you're taking that so personal, but if you agree with him, the preamble that coincidentally followed your admission was irrelevant. That's all.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Yeah it's called the eyeball test, and in my judgement Shaq was terrible in the finals. Stats really don't tell the whole story.


Defensively Shaq was a beast though! I watched those same finals, not only did he rebound the ball very well and play a high efficiency offensive game, but he also was an inside PRESENCE on defense. He was continually making great plays down low, playing good physical defense (there's a reason he had so many fouls, but played so many minutes: he was never really in trouble, he was just PHYSICAL). He kept Nowitzki from getting any closer than the elbow all night long, EVERY night. Nowitzki was left to take jumpers with hands in his face because he couldn't get inside. When he did get inside he was hit hard and rattled by Shaq. Zo had a presence as well, but more frequently it was Dirk getting AROUND Zo only to be hit hard by Shaq. Hence Shaq's fouls. Dirk shot 39% that series because Shaq was in the paint. Its the eyeball test, the eyeball test says that Shaq was a bigger presence on the floor than Mo Williams could hope to be.

And not only does my eyeball test show Shaq was a bigger presence, but the numbers back it up at every single turn.


-Chris.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

ChrisWoj said:


> Defensively Shaq was a beast though! I watched those same finals, not only did he rebound the ball very well and play a high efficiency offensive game, but he also was an inside PRESENCE on defense. He was continually making great plays down low, playing good physical defense (there's a reason he had so many fouls, but played so many minutes: he was never really in trouble, he was just PHYSICAL). He kept Nowitzki from getting any closer than the elbow all night long, EVERY night. Nowitzki was left to take jumpers with hands in his face because he couldn't get inside. When he did get inside he was hit hard and rattled by Shaq. Zo had a presence as well, but more frequently it was Dirk getting AROUND Zo only to be hit hard by Shaq. Hence Shaq's fouls. Dirk shot 39% that series because Shaq was in the paint. Its the eyeball test, the eyeball test says that Shaq was a bigger presence on the floor than Mo Williams could hope to be.
> 
> And not only does my eyeball test show Shaq was a bigger presence, but the numbers back it up at every single turn.
> 
> ...


Right well your entitled to your opinion, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Cause I maintain my belief that Shaq was merely average at best in the Finals. And if he would of played above average the Heat would of never been in the crisis they were in the beginning of that series.

Also I never knew Dirk was touted for being an inside player. News to me that Shaq kept him out of the paint. Good stuff though. Happy Holidays.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Right well your entitled to your opinion, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Cause I maintain my belief that Shaq was merely average at best in the Finals. And if he would of played above average the Heat would of never been in the crisis they were in the beginning of that series.
> 
> Also I never knew Dirk was touted for being an inside player. News to me that Shaq kept him out of the paint. Good stuff though. Happy Holidays.


Do you watch the Mavericks play (honest question, not snide)? Dirk attacks to set up his outside and midrange shooting. If he can not get down to the block, no one is going to respect him enough to play a step off of him as many big men have to do. He has a very well developed inside game, a lot of moves he can utilize. If he can't get anything off down there, Zo can keep his hands in Dirk's face out near the elbow and beyond. This is huge when you're trying to contain someone that can score from virtually anywhere like Dirk can. Additionally, you keep avoiding the point which is very frustrating and may just be a sign that you can not defend your opinion... but the fact is that Shaq is a better presence than Mo Williams. I agree with you completely, and will never deny, the fact that Shaq was very average during those NBA Finals. He was a great defensive presence, but overall he was very average as compared to his former self.

However, you haven't said word-one to defend your thoughts that Mo Williams is better than 2006 Finals Shaq. If you can say anything beyond "Mo Williams simply is." I will gladly listen. Thus far you've done your best to stay as far away from defending your point as possible, instead repeatedly pointing out that Shaq was not his former dominant self which is not the true focus of the debate.


-Chris.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

ChrisWoj said:


> Do you watch the Mavericks play (honest question, not snide)? Dirk attacks to set up his outside and midrange shooting. If he can not get down to the block, no one is going to respect him enough to play a step off of him as many big men have to do. He has a very well developed inside game, a lot of moves he can utilize. If he can't get anything off down there, Zo can keep his hands in Dirk's face out near the elbow and beyond. This is huge when you're trying to contain someone that can score from virtually anywhere like Dirk can. Additionally, you keep avoiding the point which is very frustrating and may just be a sign that you can not defend your opinion... but the fact is that Shaq is a better presence than Mo Williams. I agree with you completely, and will never deny, the fact that Shaq was very average during those NBA Finals. He was a great defensive presence, but overall he was very average as compared to his former self.
> 
> However, you haven't said word-one to defend your thoughts that Mo Williams is better than 2006 Finals Shaq. If you can say anything beyond "Mo Williams simply is." I will gladly listen. Thus far you've done your best to stay as far away from defending your point as possible, instead repeatedly pointing out that Shaq was not his former dominant self which is not the true focus of the debate.
> 
> ...


Well if you can't figure out why I have the opinion I do by now, I guess we've exhausted the debate to nothing. No problem.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Well if you can't figure out why I have the opinion I do by now, I guess we've exhausted the debate to nothing. No problem.


I just went back and read all of your posts. Here is your entire argument:


> and to top that off, Mo Williams is extremely talented.


There is a reason I can't figure out why you have your opinion, it is because you haven't actually elaborated on your opinion *at all.* You're not debating a topic, you're avoiding it. We haven't exhausted the debate, I've won it... unless you care to make a point.


-Chris.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

ChrisWoj said:


> I just went back and read all of your posts. Here is your entire argument:
> 
> There is a reason I can't figure out why you have your opinion, it is because you haven't actually elaborated on your opinion *at all.* You're not debating a topic, you're avoiding it. We haven't exhausted the debate, I've won it... unless you care to make a point.
> 
> ...


Okay "you've won it" Although It doesn't really change my opinion. So I guess what you've shared/stats etc has really zero influence on my opinion. Nothing you've shared regarding your opinion on Shaq. Changes the fact that IMO Shaq was merely average at best in the finals. And IMO if the Cavs made the finals this season, Mo Williams would have a much better showing than Shaq. NO question in my mind about that actually. So cheers to you winning!

- Golf clap -


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Okay "you've won it" Although It doesn't really change my opinion. So I guess what you've shared/stats etc has really zero influence on my opinion. Nothing you've shared regarding your opinion on Shaq. Changes the fact that IMO Shaq was merely average at best in the finals. And IMO if the Cavs made the finals this season, Mo Williams would have a much better showing than Shaq. NO question in my mind about that actually. So cheers to you winning!
> 
> - Golf clap -


You haven't validated your opinion with ANYTHING AT ALL. You have basically said "he will because I say he will." You called it a debate, acknowledged that there was a debate, and failed to contribute in any way, shape, or form. You basically have failed to debate your point in every possible way.


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

I'd take the current Shaq over the current Mo Williams for a championship run any day.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

The Heat didn't have to go through a team as good as the Celtics or Lakers to get their title. If the Cavs get a title, it will be an incredible achievement. Lebron's the only possible hall of famer on the Cavs, Kobe was always playing with a couple hall of famers under a Hall of fame coach, and DWade had Shaq, who at that point of his career, was still demanding double teams in the post, which opened Wade's driving lanes. Wade never had to go against a defense like the Celtics.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

gi0rdun said:


> I'd take the current Shaq over the current Mo Williams for a championship run any day.


I think Shaq may be better, but Mo is the perfect point guard to put next to Lebron.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

A lot of '06 Heat topics lately..

Anyway, I think the Lebron-Cavs would be the 'better' achievement than the others (getting past the '08-'09 Celtics/Lakers), but the Wade-Heat would be the 'bigger' achievement if that makes any sense (being real underdogs in the finals, going down 0-2 only to win 4 straight, etc.).

In other words, assuming the Cavs have to get through the Celtics to reach the Finals, and that they have almost unanimously now the best player in the game, I don't think the disparity between the Lakers/Cavs would be considered near as big as the Mavs/Heat.

And more specifically addressing the question, Lebron would be considered a greater player (and perhaps a greater performance personally and whatever, especially given his rep), but it would be a greater achievemnet for the actual Heat championship team than the Cavs championship team.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

I'm waiting for 23AJ to come back and brag about how Mo Williams lit up Washington (4-23 Washington!) tonight. lol. Of course, it so doesn't matter that he's all but disappeared in games against teams like Denver, Boston, and New Orleans this year. But he can light up Washington!


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

mo williams is pretty much average as an nba starting point guard,but cleveland wasn't all that far from being a really good team and williams has managed to maximize his strengths to fit in with Cleveland's needs.

The Cavs had a strong frontline,particularly so long as big Z continues to remain healthy and produce very efficiently.They were a very good defensive team and they had Lebron.However they were using Lebron as a blunt object and this was because they lacked a second scorer and anyone else who could create anything for himself or particularly for Lebron.It would be terrific if you could get a better point guard who'd look for lebron in transition at every chance,but what Williams has done has been quite enough to elevate Cleveland to the next level.He isn't anywhere near an elite player or playmaker,but what he does is almost an exact fit what Cleveland needed offensively.


Just think about the boston series last year.The C's came out and said all you others guys beat us if you can...We're going to focus completely on Mr James.Noone else could do anything and the way they were using Lebron made it incredibly difficult for him.It looked like they were trying to see how hard they could make it for him.Now they can attack people in more ways without putting the ball in lebron's hands at the top of the arc and having him stare down five guys with their feet in the paint.Cleveland has in particular done a vastly better job of getting the ball to lebron in the open floor,almost as if they've been listening to me or perhaps because it was so patently obvious that this is what you would like most.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Considering LeBron's cast isn't as good as either the Celtics or Lakers' casts around Kobe/KG, he'd be:

1) The unanimous best player in the NBA, which he'll cement if he wins his MVP this season.
2) Get closer to the illusive career of Jordan for accomplishments before 30, since he'll have that same team around him the next year (but after that who knows).


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Diable said:


> mo williams is pretty much average as an nba starting point guard,but cleveland wasn't all that far from being a really good team and williams has managed to maximize his strengths to fit in with Cleveland's needs.
> 
> The Cavs had a strong frontline,particularly so long as big Z continues to remain healthy and produce very efficiently.They were a very good defensive team and they had Lebron.However they were using Lebron as a blunt object and this was because they lacked a second scorer and anyone else who could create anything for himself or particularly for Lebron.It would be terrific if you could get a better point guard who'd look for lebron in transition at every chance,but what Williams has done has been quite enough to elevate Cleveland to the next level.He isn't anywhere near an elite player or playmaker,but what he does is almost an exact fit what Cleveland needed offensively.
> 
> ...


Excellent post..


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Probably more Jordan-esque than anything even Jordan did. LeBron-esque. It would be the equivelant of Jordan beating both the Celtics and Lakers in the 80's.



Oh wooooow. Wooooow at LeBron actually getting so deep under peoples skin.

I won't say squat in this topic but this.


LeBron James in the eyes of todays NBA manfan world DOESNT need to win ANY championships and he will be put on a higher pedestal (or is already put, depending on the level of fandome one is subjected) than Magic, Mike, Karl Malone, Kobe and the likes, every All Star in last 20 years between 6'6 and 6'10.

That being said, it's pretty clear where the state of today's NBA actually is.

Nowhere.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

DNKO said:


> Oh wooooow. Wooooow at LeBron actually getting so deep under peoples skin.
> 
> I won't say squat in this topic but this.
> 
> ...


You can play even at the level of Michael Jordan for a period of time and right now Lebron is doing this. It just depends how long that stretch is, the longer the better of course. Playing at an all-time level and being an all-time great are two entirely different things, but through the first 29 games of the NBA season he is arguably playing as well as anyone ever. Lebron is on pace to become an all-time great, he ain't yet.

Cleveland has no business being 25-4 with the talent they have and they are on pace to win 70 games. Hypothetically speaking, if you replace Lebron with anyone else in the history of basketball it would be darn near impossible for this team to be 25-4 again. Whether Lebron keeps it up or not, he has been very, very special so far.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

What LeBron is doing is not unseen.

I have a rough time with this argument. Watching Kobe play is like watching Tyson at his best days...plain knocking others the F down. With style.

Watching Bron...is like that Valuev dude. Big, strong and ugly.

His moves are ugly, he moves stiff, his duck walk isn't a factor but it is really funny to see, one feet at 10 o'clock other at 2...and on top of that, every move he makes gets triple attention, at least.

That's what bothers me. 

Cavs have a great record, don't get me wrong, but the last 10-15 games were played HEAVY against under .50 teams, so let's not blow it out of proportions.

Plus - LeBron is given so much credit now - you can say all you want but if he's presented as this godlike basketball player - please believe me

I ain't expecting nothing but godlike from him. That includes rings, wins and all that stuff. Anything under that is disappointment. 

If someone's gonna get all the kudos - he better live up to them. Ain't no such things as halfway superstars. 

So praising LeBron now isn't really adequate. He is supposed to rock the league, win it all and blah blah blah.

Other than that...he failed. That's the price of getting pedestaled early.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

croco said:


> Hypothetically speaking, if you replace Lebron with anyone else in the history of basketball it would be darn near impossible for this team to be 25-4 again. Whether Lebron keeps it up or not, he has been very, very special so far.


wau


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## Smallballs (Nov 19, 2008)

DNKO said:


> What LeBron is doing is not unseen.
> 
> I have a rough time with this argument. Watching Kobe play is like watching Tyson at his best days...plain knocking others the F down. With style.
> 
> ...


This really takes me back to LeBron's rookie year. I used to hear this kind of stuff all the time back then. 

It was a straw-man argument back then, and it still is.

You sound like one of the really old-school LeBron haters.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Hater? No. I just don't feel like I have to cosign every All Star player because if that's the case I might as well root for the whole freakin league and 30 teams.

I don't like his play. You have a problem with that - that's you.

I don't see one thing remotely interesting about his game. And if you think that you will prove me that his jumpshot is great and unseen or he's beyond quick or that he's whatever, you won't.

He is, I repeat, playing strictly on behalf of his extraordinary physique. How long will his body be this strong and his legs this quick...we'll see.

And then - we'll see what weapon will he use when the ages come around. Probably that beautiful jumper of his.

And a lot of negative points that I give him is basically because everyone is so much on his schlong now it's disturbing, comparing him to Jordan, or he is already better than Jordan...

And he got swept the **** out of a all time lowest watched NBA Finals, last year he screwed up layup in game 7 against Boston all who knows what...

So he is given credit to be mentioned in the same sentence as Michael, meaning that LeBron James, zero time NBA champ, is already past Magic, Shaq, Bird and all them.

Oh wow.

Yes indeed.

And don't come with that lame pityful arguments about him being young and already in the finals.

Penny Hardaway got knocked out of the Finals real easy in his sophomore year, so that makes Penny what, NBA all time second great?


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## Smallballs (Nov 19, 2008)

DNKO said:


> Hater? No. I just don't feel like I have to cosign every All Star player because if that's the case I might as well root for the whole freakin league and 30 teams.
> 
> I don't like his play. You have a problem with that - that's you.
> 
> ...


And you're trying to tell me this isn't personal, or that you aren't bitter?

You ARE a hater. Face it. Your argument is a straw-man. Give me one example of anyone claiming that LeBron is better than Magic or Bird. You can't, because nobody ever has.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Smallballs said:


> Give me one example of anyone claiming that LeBron is better than Magic or Bird. You can't, because nobody ever has.


Oh now you're throwing yourself under the bus.

If you compare LeBron to Jordan - assuming that Jordan is, the best ever that played the game. Logically, that would mean that on some overall impact / championships / playing skills level, Jordan is first, or tied first with this phenom, and Bird and Magic below.

You are hater. You are hating on anybody that doesn't automatically sign on LeBron James.

I watch NBA basketball for a long time and I would be lying to myself if I've said I've never seen any player play like LeBron.

6 years in the game, no rings, I don't know, unless I see some multiple scoring titles in a row, some back to back titles, some multiple MVP's and NBA team records, I won't exactly put him in the sentence like Bird, Jordan and them others.

You are a hater plus a very very slacky fan. Cos Bird had to WORK his way to respect. He had to win it, and not just once, to solidify himself.

Magic too. Jordan too. Everybody did.


But all of a sudden there's this LeBron guy and it's enough for him just to play and already has all the kudos.

That's reaching beyond fandome.

Watching Kobe Bryant is about 5525 times more interesting than watching LeBron. 

But arguing with fans is impossible mission so nevermind me, I'm a hater.


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## Smallballs (Nov 19, 2008)

DNKO said:


> Oh now you're throwing yourself under the bus.
> 
> If you compare LeBron to Jordan - assuming that Jordan is, the best ever that played the game. Logically, that would mean that on some overall impact / championships / playing skills level, Jordan is first, or tied first with this phenom, and Bird and Magic below.
> 
> ...


Nice try. You can make all the facetious arguments you want, but the fact is that nobody thinks LeBron is on Jordan's level, or above Bird and Magic.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Smallballs said:


> Nice try. You can make all the facetious arguments you want, but the fact is that nobody thinks LeBron is on Jordan's level, or above Bird and Magic.





Sir Patchwork said:


> He would absolutely own the basketball world. Considering he would have to go through the Celtics to get to the finals, then would have to beat Kobe and the Lakers to win the title, it would be remarkable.
> 
> Probably more Jordan-esque than anything even Jordan did. LeBron-esque. It would be the equivelant of Jordan beating both the Celtics and Lakers in the 80's.


^ and this is just if he wins one ring.

If LeBron wins a ring, you can type all you want, but he can easily retire that moment.

Cos it's a wrap that moment. For the 90% of bball stans across the world, James will be probably more imporant then sun and air.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

bird's career was cut short by his back injury.I'd say that Lebron has already done as much as he did individually.He's not as skilled a passer as bird and he scores in different ways,but other than that Lebron is already better than Bird.It's not really that big a deal.If Bird hadn't gotten hurt you might have more of a problem arguing that Lebron has been better,but he did get hurt.

When you talk about team success you have to remember that bird played before the era of parity.At that point the nba was dominated by a handful of elite organizations who had more money,better players,better coaches and so forth than nearly all the other teams in the league.The Celtics were a loaded team that gave Bird the perfect oppurtunity to succeed.They really didn't face great competition in the Eastern Conference and it would have been incredible if that team hadn't competed for the title every year.Lebron is facing an entirely different situation.He wasn't dropped into a situation where he was surrounded by hall of fame quality players like McHale,Parrish and DJ.You can talk about rings,but that's stupid.Bird more or less inheritted the right to play for titles when Auerbach drafted him before he left Indiana State(which you obviously can't do now)


Magic is a different story up until this point,but his titles don't separate him from Lebron.Those titles were won by lakers teams stacked with hall of fame players.Lebron has never played with anyone who'd ever merit consideration for the cleveland cavaliers hall of fame.I don't know of any player who has competed for a title with a worse team around him than Lebron took to the finals.I don't know what more can be expected of him to this point while he's never had even good talent around him.You look at what he has now and it certainly doesn't blow me away.


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## Smallballs (Nov 19, 2008)

Comparisons to all-time greats aside, I created this thread to discuss whether or not LeBron, if he wins a title this year, should be elevated above Kobe and/or Wade.

Pardon me for thinking that is a reasonable question. And I don't think whether or not anybody considers Kobe more "interesting to watch" is a relevant factor.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Wade maybe, Kobe no. There.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Smallballs said:


> I brought this up in another thread but it wasn't answered, and I think this is a question that deserves its own topic.
> 
> Hypothetically, if the Cavaliers were to win the championship this year (not inconceivable), how would you rate that achievement in terms of LeBron's career and his legacy? How would you compare that hypothetical championship run to Wade's title, and those won by Kobe?
> 
> I don't want to make too many assumptions about how LeBron would perform in this hypothetical Finals series, so let's just say, he does whatever you think he would have to do, in order for the Cavaliers to win it all. That leaves it up to your opinion of the Cavaliers' team.





> If the Cavaliers win the title this year...


 *I'LL EAT MY SHORTS!*


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## UrFavTeamSux (Jan 17, 2007)

can I signature-quote that and expect youtube video after LeBron hits the game winning 3 over Kobe in game 7?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

And since Lebron's game is so ho-hum and been there done that, just name me 3 players that play(ed) like Lebron. The most inriguing thing about him to me is that he's indeed the first Lebron James, noone's ever even been blessed enough to have his talent at his size, so saying you've seen someone like him before isn't true. We've been trying to find good player comparisions for him for 6 years and the best I can do is some Magic-Grant Hill hybrid.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

UrFavTeamSux said:


> can I signature-quote that and expect youtube video after LeBron hits the game winning 3 over Kobe in game 7?


Yes. Yes you can.


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> *I'LL EAT MY SHORTS!*


Ahah! Paulo is possibly the biggest Lebron hater, but I have to admit, I STILL kind of like him as a poster...:lol:


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Firstly I could give this about either team, but what I saw now was wrong as **** man. And it's bothering me. 

People already take shot at the games integrity and say it's rigged and this did nothing but further their claims. I just seen the refs single handedly take away a six point lead away from the Wizards. 

I've not seen no **** like this since the Miami finals. They called *four* not questionable but blatantly wrong fouls all in the tightest point of the game and the **** was so obvious. 

They called a foul on Butler when he didn't even touch lebron, they waited to call the foul after they saw lebron miss (o rly?) the three. They called an offensive foul on Jamison when Ben had no position. 

They called a offensive foul on Butler again when he was sandwiched and tied up and then they let Varejo clear out up under the basket then called the foul on Jamison when he wasn't even on the spot in time making him foul out. 

They want them to succeed so bad it's not even funny but no one is even buying into this ****. Cleveland got flat out outplayed and they gave them that game. I thought the Jamison offensive foul was a game changer because he really should have had two free throws and he should have not fouled out, but instead he picked up his fifth and they lost the ball. I don't understand why they cheat for them so much. 

They've pumped damn near a half billion dollars into the 'we are witnesses' campaign and the **** has gone absolutely nowhere. And the only way to try and salvage this **** is by letting him win. Then they hope fans will tune in if hes winning because theyre not tuning in now. Also, he can't win game by himself, he doesnt know how, and watch his first years as proof - without traveling or getting bailed out, hell run somebody over airball a freethrow or throw away the ball or shy away from the last shot with that "pass the ball to 3point line move". 

They have to make him appear as what they want because it still stupid cats that will buy into it.

I wish I hadn't took time to watch this travesty. **** is sad. NBA.com has, of course, only 1st half highlights on this game. LOL.

Sad. And if you're not noticing this, pull that Cavs headband from your eyes.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Can't find it on YouTube..but I found this. LOL. It's so sweet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0getoT28MU&fmt=18


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

DNKO said:


> Watching Kobe Bryant is about 5525 times more interesting than watching LeBron.


Skip Bayless is that you?


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

What? No it's not but to say Kobe is less interesting than LeBron I guess you must be Brons trusty stan?

Anyway - did anyone beside me notice how Cleveland played in AWAY jersey at HOME? 

And - note that Lebrick debuted his ugly shoes that day, those blue clogs?

Oh wow. Nice. Nike really is over the NBA.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Diable said:


> bird's career was cut short by his back injury.I'd say that Lebron has already done as much as he did individually.


Larry Bird had a strong 10 years, LeBron is at #6? Not arguing, but just saying.



Diable said:


> They really didn't face great competition in the Eastern Conference and it would have been incredible if that team hadn't competed for the title every year.


Larry Bird's road to the Finals was tougher in the East than it was for the Lakers out West, do your research



Diable said:


> I don't know of any player who has competed for a title with a worse team around him than Lebron took to the finals.


Rick Barry, and he won a championship


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

It's really amusing seeing someone actually willing to go in the argument comparing someone like Larry Bird - to this buffoon, haha...



> Game notes
> The Wizards intended to wear their blue road jerseys, which included a white holiday snowflake on the front. But James wanted to wear blue to match his new Nike "chalk" shoes and the Cavaliers sent an employee to Washington to fetch the Wizards' white jerseys.


Hail Nike!


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

DNKO said:


> It's really amusing seeing someone actually willing to go in the argument comparing someone like Larry Bird - to this buffoon, haha...
> 
> 
> 
> Hail Nike!


How the hell is he a buffoon? That is probably the most ignorant thing I have heard on here in a while, good job making yourself look like a buffoon.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Diable said:


> bird's career was cut short by his back injury.I'd say that Lebron has already done as much as he did individually.He's not as skilled a passer as bird and he scores in different ways,but other than that Lebron is already better than Bird.It's not really that big a deal.If Bird hadn't gotten hurt you might have more of a problem arguing that Lebron has been better,but he did get hurt.
> 
> When you talk about team success you have to remember that bird played before the era of parity.At that point the nba was dominated by a handful of elite organizations who had more money,better players,better coaches and so forth than nearly all the other teams in the league.The Celtics were a loaded team that gave Bird the perfect oppurtunity to succeed.They really didn't face great competition in the Eastern Conference and it would have been incredible if that team hadn't competed for the title every year.Lebron is facing an entirely different situation.He wasn't dropped into a situation where he was surrounded by hall of fame quality players like McHale,Parrish and DJ.You can talk about rings,but that's stupid.Bird more or less inheritted the right to play for titles when Auerbach drafted him before he left Indiana State(which you obviously can't do now)


bird joined a team that won 29 games the year before (and 32 before theat). they had some talent, but won only 29 games. the primary addition the next year was bird, and they won 60 games. no dj, no mchale, no parish. they had cowens (who retired after the season), and tiny averaged 11 and 5 before bird got there. bird turned the franchise around. 

and the competition in the east was strong. the bucks and sixers were legit contenders. 

no comparing the casts bird and lebron enjoyed much of their careers, but it's not like bird stepped right into the defending champs.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

SamTheMan67 said:


> How the hell is he a buffoon? That is probably the most ignorant thing I have heard on here in a while, good job making yourself look like a buffoon.


So this is how things go around here, take the whole issue of refs practically fixing the game, Nike controlling Lebron and Cavs and being above NBA uniform codes and all that, and take the "buffoon" out of the context and make a debate why did I use the word "buffoon"?

:sarcasm:


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

DNKO said:


> So this is how things go around here, take the whole issue of refs practically fixing the game, Nike controlling Lebron and Cavs and being above NBA uniform codes and all that, and take the "buffoon" out of the context and make a debate why did I use the word "buffoon"?
> 
> :sarcasm:


It was a communication mistake by both the teams, not a Nike ploy to override the NBA. If Refs are trying to fix the cavs games they aren't doing a very good job DNKO, or should I show you the same phantom fouls you show Yao getting, Z receiving the same treatment?


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

DNKO said:


> So this is how things go around here, take the whole issue of refs practically fixing the game, Nike controlling Lebron and Cavs and being above NBA uniform codes and all that, and take the "buffoon" out of the context and make a debate why did I use the word "buffoon"?
> 
> :sarcasm:


errrrrrrrrrrrrrrr?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

DNKO said:


> What? No it's not but to say Kobe is less interesting than LeBron I guess you must be Brons trusty stan?
> 
> Anyway - did anyone beside me notice how Cleveland played in AWAY jersey at HOME?
> 
> ...


 
I like pie.


Not really relevant,but it's a more coherent and insightful comment that anything you've contributed here.This is a basketball discussion board.We don't ****ing care if you like long bubble baths and kittens.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Sure that's the smartest you can do, I know, but it's ok tho.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

From glancing over this thread I have learned:

-Mo Williams > Shaq


-LeBron is a bufoon?


-Diable likes Pie


The third observation may be the best and most informative in this entire thread (besides Diable shutting it down the past few pages). 



But if LeBron were to win a title this year it would cement his status as the best player in the league. He still doesn't have great talent around him but Mo Williams has blended in well enough to make this team an even bigger threat to Boston in the playoffs as long as everyone is healthy.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

...


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Great sig!

Apparently it's not even rumors, it's minutes from being inked!


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I think it's awesome that the punk wizards had to wear their home jerseys in cleveland because Lebron James is a superstar and they are a 5 win team. The Wiz are so sad. Even when Deshawn tried to do his I can't feel my face thing when he made a jumper( a rarity for him this season) it was really sad. The downside was that the Cavs didn't blow the wizards out to complete the humiliation. But conceptually it was a nice day to kick the Wizards while they were down.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> He would absolutely own the basketball world. Considering he would have to go through the Celtics to get to the finals, then would have to beat Kobe and the Lakers to win the title, it would be remarkable.


it's a pretty big assumption to make that the celtics will be in the eastern conference finals and the lakers will be in the finals.

hell, the cavs might even have homecourt throughout the playoffs the way they have played so far this season.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Lebron doesn't have to win a title to be the best player in the league. He already is the best player in the league. The guy is practically unstoppable.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

HKF said:


> Lebron doesn't have to win a title to be the best player in the league. He already is the best player in the league. The guy is practically unstoppable.


i'll never understand people who think that someone needs a title to become the best player in the league. winning a title doesn't change how good a player is. lebron is the best player in the league(and has been for a couple of years now) and that is the reason the cavs are so good and have a shot at the title.


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## Smallballs (Nov 19, 2008)

rocketeer said:


> i'll never understand people who think that someone needs a title to become the best player in the league. winning a title doesn't change how good a player is. lebron is the best player in the league(and has been for a couple of years now) and that is the reason the cavs are so good and have a shot at the title.


Yeah, it's interesting. There are so many different factors that are out of the player's control that will affect whether or not that one individual player wins any championships. It takes the right teammates, the right coaching, the right ownership, the right time.. but ultimately it's how individual players are judged.

Few people will remember (maybe not even now?) that there was a time when Tracy McGrady was considered every bit as good as Kobe.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

EDIT

I've edited my whole post now. While surfing around this forum now I've realized what the logo of this forum is.

So all I have to say is - thank god for NBA TV shining a light on us with 24 hours of LeBron. The campaign is underway and HEAVY.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

DNKO said:


> EDIT
> 
> I've edited my whole post now. While surfing around this forum now I've realized what the logo of this forum is.
> 
> So all I have to say is - thank god for NBA TV shining a light on us with 24 hours of LeBron. The campaign is underway and HEAVY.


Not liking Lebron doesn't make you a better basketball mind.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

DNKO said:


> EDIT
> 
> I've edited my whole post now. While surfing around this forum now I've realized what the logo of this forum is.
> 
> So all I have to say is - thank god for NBA TV shining a light on us with 24 hours of LeBron. The campaign is underway and HEAVY.


Stop making yourself into a damn martyr on an online forum. You're not revolutionary or rowing against the tide. You're being a contrarian just to ruffle a few feathers. You can have opposing viewpoints, but find a more respectful way of doing it.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

why are you guys giving him a hard time for his opinions?


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

aznzen said:


> why are you guys giving him a hard time for his opinions?


have you read the guy's posts? they are mostly garbage.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

aznzen said:


> why are you guys giving him a hard time for his opinions?


It's not his opinions, but you already know that.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Smallballs said:


> Few people will remember (maybe not even now?) that there was a time when Tracy McGrady was considered every bit as good as Kobe.


well there was a time when tmac was as good of a player as kobe. tmac just didn't hold up physically(or maybe mentally as well) like kobe did and is no longer close to kobe's level.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Yes I should have known better than to post "against" a dude that's on the logo of the place I'm posting.

Silly me.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

DNKO said:


> Yes I should have known better than to post "against" a dude that's on the logo of the place I'm posting.
> 
> Silly me.


keep pretending that's relevant as if it makes your previous posts better somehow.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

You didn't even read those, you skimmed through them, figured I'm not on board with the logo man here, and proceeded to make shi shi foo foo replies to make me look like a bitter hater and to make you look smart.

Keep looking smart. I'm not saying one thing about the greatest basketball player ever.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

DNKO said:


> You didn't even read those, you skimmed through them, figured I'm not on board with the logo man here, and proceeded to make shi shi foo foo replies to make me look like a bitter hater and to make you look smart.
> 
> Keep looking smart. I'm not saying one thing about the greatest basketball player ever.


i never said you were a hater, just that your posts are complete ****.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

All right, let's stay on topic and stop with the attacking of posters.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

HKF said:


> Lebron doesn't have to win a title to be the best player in the league. He already is the best player in the league. The guy is practically unstoppable.


Do you believe that the best player and the player who has the most impact can infact be two different players?

Edit - DNKO, I know...I never saw 24 Hours of Kobe on his 24th birthday or 24 Hours of KG, Dwight, CP3, etc.

Conspiracy?


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

rocketeer said:


> i never said you were a hater, just that your posts are complete ****.


OK. You are entitled to your own opinion. But so am I.

Just don't try to chump me over the internet. It's not a good look. Now let's carry on.

eace:


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Do you believe that the best player and the player who has the most impact can infact be two different players?


they can be different players, but currently i don't think they are.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> i'll never understand people who think that someone needs a title to become the best player in the league. winning a title doesn't change how good a player is. lebron is the best player in the league(and has been for a couple of years now) and that is the reason the cavs are so good and have a shot at the title.


a few years? no. this year? yes.


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Do you believe that the best player and the player who has the most impact can infact be two different players?


yes. but not this year, because lebron is both.

lebron might not have as much as bird/magic have on their resume yet, but he's playing at a level right now that neither ever did. unless if he gets a major injury or just loses interest in basketball, when it's all said and done, lebron will easily be considered better than magic and bird.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

SlamJam said:


> lebron might not have as much as bird/magic have on their resume yet, but he's playing at a level right now that neither ever did.


:nailbiter::callme:


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SlamJam said:


> yes. but not this year, because lebron is both.
> 
> lebron might not have as much as bird/magic have on their resume yet, *but he's playing at a level right now that neither ever did.* unless if he gets a major injury or just loses interest in basketball, when it's all said and done, lebron will easily be considered better than magic and bird.


I would REEEEAAALLY like to hear your reasoning for this claim.


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> I would REEEEAAALLY like to hear your reasoning for this claim.


defense counts.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

dp


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SlamJam said:


> defense counts.


lol.
And i guess Bird and Magic were knowned for being lit up for 40 a nighy, right?
I suspected you knew nothing...
Oh, but wait: considering Kobe Bryant has made a zillion all-defense teams (and has an MVP to boot), that should also mean he played in a "higher level " than those guys, right?


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> lol.
> And i guess Bird and Magic were knowned for being lit up for 40 a nighy, right?


that's not saying much. no one was light up for 40 a night.



> I suspected you knew nothing...


because i said defense counts?



> Oh, but wait: considering Kobe Bryant has made a zillion all-defense teams (and has an MVP to boot), that should also mean he played in a "higher level " than those guys, right?


who's talking about kobe? anyway, everyone knows kobe is getting a good bunch of those based on reputation. and he doesn't give you what lebron does offensively anyway. to clarify, i think in the past 10 years only shaq and duncan have played at the level lebron is at right now.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Larry Bird and Magic Johnson's level of play and intangible's are easily still superior to what LeBron James has done in his six season's in the NBA. WIll there be a day LeBron might eclipse Bird/Magic. He might, but right now he's not really that close. Look at the stats, achievements, and their all around intangible's they brought to the game. 

Larry Bird

http://www.nba.com/history/players/bird_stats.html

Magic Johnson

http://www.nba.com/history/players/johnsonm_stats.html

Have people already forgotten why these guy's are top 5 top 3 players ever ? No way can you put LeBron in that conversation for peak value or career wise, at this point.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SlamJam said:


> that's not saying much. no one was light up for 40 a night.


Nor Bird nor Magic were great man-to-man defenders. But they weren't push-overs. 



> because i said defense counts?


Yes. 



> who's talking about kobe? anyway, everyone knows kobe is getting a good bunch of those based on reputation. and he doesn't give you what lebron does offensively anyway. to clarify, i think in the past 10 years only shaq and duncan have played at the level lebron is at right now.


lol. Double-standard much, do you?


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

23AJ said:


> Have people already forgotten why these guy's are top 5 top 3 players ever ?


top 3 or 5? based on what?? bird and magic are somewhere in 5-10.



> No way can you put LeBron in that conversation for peak value or career wise, at this point.


peak value, yes you can. it's not about forgetting magic and bird. it's about opening your eyes and appreciating what lebron is doing.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Larry Bird and Magic Johnson's level of play and intangible's are easily still superior to what LeBron James has done in his six season's in the NBA. WIll there be a day LeBron might eclipse Bird/Magic. He might, but right now he's not really that close. Look at the stats, achievements, and their all around intangible's they brought to the game.
> 
> Larry Bird
> 
> ...


Good post :clap:

And this is coming from a Lebron fanboy!


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Nor Bird nor Magic were great man-to-man defenders. But they weren't push-overs.


they were average. lebron is well above average right now.



> Yes.


so i take it you feel that defense doesn't count? then i'm pretty sure i know who is the one who really knows nothing.



> lol. Double-standard much, do you?


what?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SlamJam said:


> they were average. lebron is well above average right now.


Oh i see. That is indeed an humongous difference.



> so i take it you feel that defense doesn't count? then i'm pretty sure i know who is the one who really knows nothing.


No, what i "feel" is that when a guy claims that Lebron James is playing at an higher level than Bird and Magic ever did, and when asked to substanciate such bodacious clajm, he responds "because defense counts", well, there's really not much to say, is there? 



> what?


lol.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

SlamJam said:


> top 3 or 5? based on what?? bird and magic are somewhere in 5-10.
> 
> 
> 
> peak value, yes you can. it's not about forgetting magic and bird. it's about opening your eyes and appreciating what lebron is doing.


Regarding peak, 2 or 3 great seasons by LeBron in no way shape or form is the same amount of years Bird put up in his peak, it's not even really close. Bird dwarfs LeBron at this point. Give it another 5 years and this is an actual debate.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

If Lebron stays healthy, yes he will be considered better than Bird simply because of his longevity and years at peak performance. Remember, his body is indestructible. Bird, eh not so much. Magic well, he's gonna have to win them rings, five titles kind of speaks for itself.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Are you serious? Do you honestly think that Lebron is playing at a higher level then Bird and Magic ever did, or are you kidding?

Considering that Bird and Magic were ridicously better passers, Bird was a wayyyy better shooter ( So was Magic just not to the same degree) Magic and Bird also had far and away better post games and had both had Championships and finals MVP's to their names in a much tougher league.

Lebron may be a better man defender THIS year so far but he still isn't as good of a team defender as Magic and Bird.

And lol at Bird/Magic only being top ten all time.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Magic was a career 30% shooter from three point range dude...He was a much worse shooter than Lebron.I'd think everyone knew that as well.


Frankly I don't see why people use shooting as a distinction in this sort of comparison.It's only relevant if you're comparing two guys who are primarily shooters.Lebron isn't a shooter.He's a guy who drives to the rim and slams the ball through it.Bird didn't do that,but he was a pretty effective and productive scorer...Only Lebron is a better scorer by any conceivable measure.The objective is to put the ball through the hole and a dunk counts the same as a jumper.He's a better rebounder.Bird was a more gifted passer,but it's not like that makes up for everything else.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Random post

OK just a quicky reminder of some NBA player that didn't have hours dedicated to him on NBA, who didn't got away with as many as phantom calls and travels but DID get to the NBA Finals with **** *** team.

Just to remind you, no special purpose. I've just found this picture, off ESPN or whatever website I've used to visit back then.









Impressive? Well, not as Ohio Meister, but I would say respectable.

And yes, I have my flame suit on...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Diable said:


> Magic was a career 30% shooter from three point range dude...He was a much worse shooter than Lebron.I'd think everyone knew that as well.
> 
> 
> Frankly I don't see why people use shooting as a distinction in this sort of comparison.It's only relevant if you're comparing two guys who are primarily shooters.Lebron isn't a shooter.He's a guy who drives to the rim and slams the ball through it.Bird didn't do that,but he was a pretty effective and productive scorer...*Only Lebron is a better scorer by any conceivable measure*.The objective is to put the ball through the hole and a dunk counts the same as a jumper.He's a better rebounder.Bird was a more gifted passer,but it's not like that makes up for everything else.


How do you fogure, considering Bird has the upperhand in FG%, 3PT%, FT%, TS% and EFg%?


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Diable said:


> Magic was a career 30% shooter from three point range dude...He was a much worse shooter than Lebron.I'd think everyone knew that as well.
> 
> 
> Frankly I don't see why people use shooting as a distinction in this sort of comparison.It's only relevant if you're comparing two guys who are primarily shooters.Lebron isn't a shooter.He's a guy who drives to the rim and slams the ball through it.Bird didn't do that,but he was a pretty effective and productive scorer...Only Lebron is a better scorer by any conceivable measure.The objective is to put the ball through the hole and a dunk counts the same as a jumper.He's a better rebounder.Bird was a more gifted passer,but it's not like that makes up for everything else.


rofl, god you suck at posting.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Travesties posted in this thread make me feel extra comfortable with my random ramblings and actually I'm beginning to think that my posts aren't as bad as many of you point out them to be.

This thing now came to epic proportions, with Larry Bird being ditched to the curb in the scoring department to...wait...LeBron James.

I don't know what to say. I don't know which basketball do you watch...


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

i just edited my post...


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Right now James is the same age that Bird was in his second season in the nba.He's led the league in scoring once...And that puts him one scoring title ahead of bird.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Diable said:


> Right now James is the same age that Bird was in his second season in the nba.He's led the league in scoring once...And that puts him one scoring title ahead of bird.


lol.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I think some posters in here are nervous a modern player might knock their idols off the pedestal.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Diable said:


> Right now James is the same age that Bird was in his second season in the nba.He's led the league in scoring once...And that puts him one scoring title ahead of bird.


Wow. Those kinds of comparisons are the best.

Yeah. Compare a guy who actually went playing college basketball for 4 years with a guy who maybe didn't even finish high school and went to NBA.

That's the best argument.

20 years old Larry Bird had less points per game in the NBA than LeBron @ 20 years old. Wow LeBron actually is already NOW better than Larry Bird. What a feat. Remarkable.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Maigc and Bird were also better rebounders, as well as being far more effecient then Lebron throughout their careers, which includes FG%, TS, EFG, and a much higher FT percentage.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Dre™ said:


> I think some posters in here are nervous a modern player might knock their idols off the pedestal.


Yes, already so much championships, scoring titles and MVP's, my ankles are weak...


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

You know exactly that it's true Paulo.At the age of 23 Lebron averaged 30 points per game and led the nba in scoring.Bird was a rookie at 23.He never averaged 30 points despite playing a substantially higher pace factor.Lebron already has more than half as many points as bird and his career has barely begun.You also know that Lebron is already better than Bird was.If you had any real argument otherwise you'd certainly let us see it,but we don't see it.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

DNKO said:


> Yes, already so much championships, scoring titles and MVP's, my ankles are weak...


Don't know about your ankles, but your sarcasm game is pretty weak. I said "might", not any classification that would imply it's already happened or even imminent.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Umm, how about that Bird was a far better passer, a better rebounder, a better help side defender, FAR more clutch, a proven winner and a Finals MVP, he never got embarrassed like Lebron did against the Spurs, the fact is Lebron is a great player, and one day he may even pass Bird, but at this point there is absolutly no aurgument for Lebron being better.

O Bird did average 29.9, and the reason he didn't average more points is because of the players he had around him, and the offense wasn't just "Give it to Bird and watch him go to work" every single play.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

I think it's really trendy nowdays to be real smart about certain subject.

For instance.

Whole sane normal world knows that no player in today's weak league can even wipe Bird's feet for a dime. 

But. There are some fans, like Dibale and similar, who really enjoy, like some really anxious radio broadcasters, to make a whole another science on subjects like this and try real desperate to appear groundbreaking and fresh in their opinions.

Because, saying "who in their right mind even compares mister Larry Bird to lbron jmes" would be something normal to expect from a NBA fan.

So they try to go the other route. The "let me tell you how is lbron better" route.

Wow.

Larry Bird actually made Boston win 32 games more than the year before him. LOL. But Larry Bird was less fortunate not to have natural ability of putting down creative and always different one handed tomahawk travel dunks and bricking the shots and getting broomed cleanly in the NBA Finals.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

its not ludicrous to interject the idea that lebron is better than bird at 23. from an individual skill and ability standpoint, lebron is better than bird and if you're going to look past bird's best attribute, its hard to deny that.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Larry Bird didn't play 1-on-5 basketball. He played in the era when no self centered players could pass. He played along with 4 other guys on his team. Therefore, there is no chance in hell Lebrn is better teamplayer than Larry. And to say that in 1-on-1 game Bird would lose to him seems pretty far fetched.

But if you want to judge strictly by the numbers, then I'm sorry.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Dre™;5804946 said:


> I think some posters in here are nervous a modern player might knock their idols off the pedestal.


In my particular case, I was just marveling that someone would say Bird, a career 10.0 rpg guy who peaked at 11 rpg, was a worse rebounder than LeBron (career 6.9 and peak 7.9), and adjusted for pace the gap is still quite obviously in favor or Bird. Nevermind the ridiculous nonsense about passing, which Bird was simply other-worldly at for his position. Or even worse, that Magic was an inferior shooter than LeBron simply because of a poor career 3-point %. It's like those people who point out that Shaq is a good "shooter" because his FG% is so high.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Yes Lebron at 23 is better then Bird at 23, but that's not what people were saying, Diable said that Lebron was better then a prime Bird, which he pretty clearly was not.

And i do think that plenty of players like the Kobes,Duncan,Lebrons of today would do great back then in the 80's, just not AS good as Bird/Magic.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Dre™ said:


> Don't know about your ankles, but your sarcasm game is pretty weak. I said "might", not any classification that would imply it's already happened or even imminent.


Might? Well that's pretty weak word, wouldn't you say? Len Bias and Bernard King also might...but didn't.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

> Whole sane normal world knows that no player in today's weak league can even wipe Bird's feet for a dime.


Yeah, on that note...I don't think I want to debate this anymore.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

EHL said:


> LeBron (career 6.9 and peak 7.9)


LMAO I've never ever payed attention to his stats. 6.9? :lol:



VanillaPrice said:


> And i do think that plenty of players like the Kobes,Duncan,Lebrons of today would do great back then in the 80's, just not AS good as Bird/Magic.


My main argument here is that players from NOW, as in new era superstars, obviously led by Mr. 24 Hours of Nike commercial and High School Highlights in Ohio (lol) himself - wouldn't NOT even compete 15, 20 or more years ago.

Tell me - how could one player, aside that he doesn't have baskeball fundamentals in his game, but doesn't have feeling for team play AT ALL - how could a player like that survive in the 80's?

Blast all you want, Lebron is self centered players and those assists he puts out are, as I've already said, a product of him hogging the ball, and I don't see him playing good in a situation where you need to actually think about plays and move and adapt accordingly to the situation on the court.

I'll be damned if that guy has high IQ, that's my opinion, and he definitely doesn't have basketball IQ whatsoever. And whoever takes this as a hate talk needs to stop being so emotional over a someone they don't even know.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2008/12/29/nba_20081229_lebronvskobe.nba/

Wooooooooooooooooow LMAO NBA just as of today officially jumped the shark.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Ok, DNKO is taking this a little too far, of course Lebron is a great player with a terrific peak, he;s probobly the best player in the league right now and would probobly play fine in the 80's.

But to this point Bron has done absolutly nothing to put him ahead of Bird/Magic, or even in the remote area of them either.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

i don't see why it even matters at this point who is the better player of lebron and bird/magic.

lebron is playing now and is currently the best player in the league. when his career is complete i have no doubt that he will have proven to be a better player than either of them. but that doesn't really matter right now and that discussion can be left for a later time in his career when his achievements equal or surpass theirs.

and dnko, what was the point of bringing up iverson?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

How can you have no doubt that a player that relies so heavily on his athletisism will be clearly better then two top five players of all time AT WORST?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

EHL said:


> In my particular case, I was just marveling that someone would say Bird, a career 10.0 rpg guy who peaked at 11 rpg, was a worse rebounder than LeBron (career 6.9 and peak 7.9), and adjusted for pace the gap is still quite obviously in favor or Bird. Nevermind the ridiculous nonsense about passing, which Bird was simply other-worldly at for his position. Or even worse, that Magic was an inferior shooter than LeBron simply because of a poor career 3-point %. It's like those people who point out that Shaq is a good "shooter" because his FG% is so high.


Adjust for pace and the comparison is interesting.
Bird was a better rebounder then Lebron but Lebron actually has a better assist% and lower TO%. When Lebron's career is over fans will be talking reverentially about his passing just as people do in hindsight of players like Bird.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

One thing Lebron has going for him is he's already a far better defensive player then Magic and Bird ever were


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Diable said:


> You know exactly that it's true Paulo.At the age of 23 Lebron averaged 30 points per game and led the nba in scoring.Bird was a rookie at 23.He never averaged 30 points despite playing a substantially higher pace factor.Lebron already has more than half as many points as bird and his career has barely begun.You also know that Lebron is already better than Bird was.If you had any real argument otherwise you'd certainly let us see it,but we don't see it.


WTF does this have anything to do with "Lebron is playing at an higher level than Bird or Magic ever did"?
What kind of a silly argument is that? Lebron at 23 vs Larry at 23? Are we gonna crown Magic Johnson the best 20 year old ever because he was Finals MVP in his rookie year? How crazy is that? 

I know many young grasshoppers here have never seen Bird or Magic play besides youtubeing it. I understand there are not many people around who indeed watched 80's ball LIVE. And even that won't fly as an excuse to put Lebron James over Larry Bird or Magic Johnson YET (and i say say "yet" not to turn off completely the possibility, that in fact, for me, doesn't exist).
Does noone read about past players anymore? Does noone study the Legends? 

So far, i've seen ridiculous claims being made that Lebron James is the better scorer than Bird. That he is the better rebounder.

I'm waiting for something better to be said, otherwise there's really no debate to be having (even if there wasn't before).


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Catarino, you might as well stop bothering.

You know that 99% of audience didn't even bother to watch one Bird game, let alone several of them, so how can they even compare.

After seeing that clip on that atrocious and totally uncalled for 24 hours of james segment on NBA, it's obvious where's NBA heading with that guy. 

They've been on his side a lot even up till now, but from now on, I think that people who claimed that Wade was heavily protected in those Finals will see it going on a whole another level.

Now, saying this in December like I am now, is a bit far fetching of the matter. But please belive and do remember, when that April comes around, when those playoffs begin, if your favorite team is playing against Cleveland James', better be prepared for some serious cursing.

No way in hell he dominates as much as they portray him, no way in hell. They won, as I've already said, games against below .50 teams, and games with teams .50, they got busted. Cavs are 6-4 against teams that are above .50. 

But the tactics James army is pulling is an old one. Throw the teammates under the bus, say he done it all by himself, and by that - make excuse for any possible failure or be prepared to get worshiped in case of success.

But hey, OK so whatever record they got, and whatever "power rankings" they've got, it's ok to me.

Those things are just made up so that the mad frustrated sports writers can have their ridiculous job.

We all know how those experts predicted the Finals last year. Hell, even Patriots were the best in those power rankings in 2007. So, we all need to wait till playoffs and see what is that dude made of, hopefully not from 2-19 shots. I bet they didn't show that segment on that fabricated show last night.


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Oh i see. That is indeed an humongous difference.


it is pretty significant. that is, if you have been paying attention to Lebron. but you obviously haven't and choose to pretend the 90s and 00s never happened.



> No, what i "feel" is that when a guy claims that Lebron James is playing at an higher level than Bird and Magic ever did, and when asked to substanciate such bodacious clajm, he responds "because defense counts", well, there's really not much to say, is there?


you really need to get to your point, because you haven't made one yet on this topic.



> lol.


lol at what? you said double standard when there wasn't one. stop dancing around the issues with "lols" and "there's not really much to say", "young grasshopper" comments. come up with something constructive.



23AJ said:


> Regarding peak, 2 or 3 great seasons by LeBron in no way shape or form is the same amount of years Bird put up in his peak, it's not even really close. Bird dwarfs LeBron at this point. Give it another 5 years and this is an actual debate.


what are you talking about? i said peak level of play, not how many years he's been at his peak. lebron is still getting better, obviously he hasn't been at his peak for very long.


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

Dre™ said:


> I think some posters in here are nervous a modern player might knock their idols off the pedestal.


pretty much. i guess there's no reason arguing with them.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

So, basically, if you don't want to be dubbed "hater" or "afraid (afraid of your favorite player being knocked off by James)" you have to ride on the James train?

Really?

No criticism applies? No atrocious playoff games, no chokes, no missed layups in Game 7 agaist Boston, no 6.9 rebs carrer (LOL) no nothing?

Just praises?

Well all right then.

Next year Stern will make Cleveland the 1st and only team in the NBA to have 6 Positions instead of 5.

PG: Mo Williams
SG: Delonte West
SF: Wally
PF: Ben Wallace
C: Z
Running Back: LeBron James

And I've heard his gonna get the deal with Southwest Airlines, so he can travel on and off the court and not get charged for it.

C'mon.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

If Lebron wins a championship this year, his haters won't have a damn thing to say. He's got the stats, the records, the individual awards. All he needs now is some rings. Fortunately he's got a good shot this year, and he's only 24, so he has some more opportunities long term if Ferry keeps the Cavs headed in the right direction.

Bringing a championship to Cleveland will be an incredible achievement for a city who for the most part has built their identity on losing. And he'll have done it all straight out of high school.

There's no precedent for his career, and with the age limit, there will never be another career like it. Lebron has been on the national/global stage since high school.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Indevidual awards? He has got a few All NBA teams and he won a pair of All Star MVP's, that does not matup with anything Bird and Magic did.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Nope, nope, no.

It's already over. If the official NBA.com TV channel is willing to go to such extents to throw NBA's best player and one of the few players who actually won some championships in this post Jordan era, and openly say, totally biased, that LeBron James is better, then yes, there is no use of "fighting" it.

Nike imposes what jerseys which team is going to wear, I won't even start about his status with the refs, and all in all, yeah, Kobe's time is done.

I'm not quite sure if that's fair and I'm not quite sure if, let's say, Marv Albert claimed that Michael was the best in the league in 1989.

I don't think he did. Jordan was a superstar, but back then, no rings - no respect.

But it seems like now, NBA is openly willing to cut James a lot of slack and point him to the shortcut.

For me, as a long time NBA fan, it's borderline disgusting. But who am I to judge...


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

DNKO said:


> For me, as a long time NBA fan, it's borderline disgusting. But who am I to judge...


Man, that must be awful.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Tell me about it...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> Indevidual awards? He has got a few All NBA teams and he won a pair of All Star MVP's, that does not matup with anything Bird and Magic did.


You know what Larry Bird had by Lebron's age at 23? Jack ****. Lebron by the same age has 4 all-star appearences(should have gone his rookie year), 2 all-star MVPs, 2 NBA first teams(should have been three), and a gold medal, to go with multiple runs deep into the NBA playoffs. He's already been to the finals. And he has a chance to win a title this year.

Compare that to December of Bird's Rookie year.

And it's also a statement of fact that Larry Bird never averaged above 30 ppg for his career, and Lebron has already done it twice.

Bird's highest assist average in a season was 7.6. Lebron in his young career already has a 7.9 season.

Add to this that Larry Bird never played with less than two hall of famers on his team at any one point, and that Lebron has never played with a hall of famer on his team.

I'd say if Lebron gets a title this year, you have to put him above Bird as the best Small Forward in league history, and say that his trajectory has him going up as one of the all-time greats.

They already show his highlights in 24 hour cycles on NBA TV, and again, at the same age Bird was just a rookie. Puts it into perspective how far he's come in such a short amount of time.

Lebron still has a ways to go to pass up Magic, but he's passing up Bird this season if the Cavs win a title.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> How can you have no doubt that a player that relies so heavily on his athletisism will be clearly better then two top five players of all time AT WORST?


He doesn't rely on his athleticism anymore than Jordan or Shaq or Hakeem did. He uses his body more than his athleticism, once he gets his shoulder by you, then it doesn't really matter how fast he's going, you're not getting back around him. Plus he finishes at the rim with either hand which is a skill, and he can dribble through traffic like a point guard, despite his size, which is a skill, and he has advanced spatial awareness on the court, so he's adept at finding seems, and knowing where the open spaces on the floor are to pass to or drive into.

If all it took was athleticism to be as good as Lebron, Tyrus Thomas would be running the league.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

No, he's not. Larry Bird led his team to three chamionships ( he only had 2 finals MVP's but he was clearly the best player on that first championship team) while Lebron has led his team to the finals once in his first six years in the league only to get swept while he played awfully. Now im not saying that Lebron isn't a terrific player and that he won't pass up Bird, because it is very possible, but to say that if he wins ONE ring this year then it puts him above a top five player of all time. 

Don't compare ages because wasn't Bird just coming in the league at 23? Compare their first six years in the league and then come back andsay that Lebron is better. I don't get why Bird has to be penalized for playing with great teammates, the fact is all of the contenders back then were absolutly stacked and Bird's team wasn't any more stacked then the Sixer or the Lakers ect.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

futuristxen said:


> You know what Larry Bird had by Lebron's age at 23? Jack ****.


You're absolutely right. And what about when James was rookie? Compare his stats to Bird's when Bird was 18.

These are Larry Bird's NBA stats when he was 18.

0 0 0 0.0 00.0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 0

Wow. Not only he is better than Bird, but it has been a case since James was 18 years old! Holly molly man oh man were we all in denial for 5 years.





futuristxen said:


> Bird's highest assist average in a season was 7.6. Lebron in his young career already has a 7.9 season.


And rising.





futuristxen said:


> I'd say if Lebron gets a title this year, you have to put him above Bird as the best Small Forward in league history, and say that his trajectory has him going up as one of the all-time greats.


And what if he doesn't? Then is he "on the same level" as Bird, below Bird, what?





futuristxen said:


> They already show his highlights in 24 hour cycles on NBA TV, and again, at the same age Bird was just a rookie. Puts it into perspective how far he's come in such a short amount of time.


Oh yeah. Did any television channel back in the day put a whole day of program dedicated to Larry Bird on his birthday? Nope.

Yeah I have to agree, I'm convinced, Larry Bird is yesterdays news, who's next on the list?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I;m just saying that i don't think Lebron is going to age well unless he adds a better post game or gets more range on that jumper, because once he gets into his thirties he's not going to be able to run fast and dominate everyone with his size.

Oh and Lebron does rely on his athletisim more then Hakeem did, and Jordan added more and more to his game to keep up with the rest of the league when he was older.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

DNKO said:


> You're absolutely right. And what about when James was rookie? Compare his stats to Bird's when Bird was 18.
> 
> These are Larry Bird's NBA stats when he was 18.
> 
> ...


In my opinion he has to win a title to be better than Bird. That's what Jordan had to do. He won one title to be better than bird, and then repeating made him better than Magic. I don't know what you'd have to do to surpass Jordan though, no one has ever done that successfully yet.

But yeah, we're watching one of the all-time great players right in front of our eyes. It's pretty special.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Just a question, where do you have Bird and Magic all time?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> I;m just saying that i don't think Lebron is going to age well unless he adds a better post game or gets more range on that jumper, because once he gets into his thirties he's not going to be able to run fast and dominate everyone with his size.


The range on his jumper isn't the problem. He can hit deep three pointers as well as Kobe can. But it's the mid-range jumper he's still working on. Though it's gotten better every year, so it's not like he's not getting the added skills as he gets older. And we've already seen him posting up a lot more this season. So those two things will probably increase as he gets older. He's probably always going to be bigger or quicker than whoever is guarding him though. Well into his mid 30s. He's just so big, if you're playing him at the 3, he's going to be bigger than a lot of 3s, and then if you guard him with a 4, even in his mid 30's he'll be quicker than the 4s.

The main worry you'd have would be injuries, just because he seems to like playing for the national team every summer, you wonder how long he can keep that up. But he hasn't had a major injury yet(knock on wood). Some guys are just lucky(Jordan) some guys aren't (Bird, Magic) when it comes to that. It's a fate thing.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

futuristxen said:


> But yeah, we're watching one of the all-time great players right in front of our eyes. It's pretty special.












Your post is David Robinson, I'm Akeem. Shake. And bake. 

What you've just said is the most biased sentence I've seen here. What about few years ago, when we watched Allen Iverson? What about Kobe Bryant?

Watching Cavaliers win few games all against sub par teams is "pretty special"?

:sarcasm:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> Just a question, where do you have Bird and Magic all time?


Probably something like this:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Duncan
6. Magic
7. Russell
8. Kareem
9. Bird
10. Kobe
Something like that maybe without thinking a ton on it. Bird sort of towards the back of the top ten, Magic more towards the front.

And once Kobe retires, he'll probably knock Bird out of the top 10.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Oh wow our lists are completly different, we have all of the same people in ours ( except Kobe, he's not there yet) just the order is completly differnt.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

DNKO said:


> Your post is David Robinson, I'm Akeem. Shake. And bake.
> 
> What you've just said is the most biased sentence I've seen here. What about few years ago, when we watched Allen Iverson? What about Kobe Bryant?
> 
> ...


Kobe Bryant is pretty special too. So was Shaq. So is/was Duncan. Every era has these players, and Lebron is the one for the current generation. It's a special time to be an NBA fan with the emmergence of Lebron, Chris Paul, DWade, Dwight Howard coinciding with the recession of Duncan/Kobe/KG. It's very similar to the late 80's early 90s when you had Bird and Magic go down, and Jordan/Barkley/Stockton/Malone/Hakeem come up.

We can't wait until the present becomes the past to enjoy it, the future is much too fast.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> Oh wow our lists are completly different, we have all of the same people in ours ( except Kobe, he's not there yet) just the order is completly differnt.


Which is a testement to how close these players are. You can make a convincing arguement for just about any order of those players.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

DNKO just seems like he hates the current players in the league and just doesn't want to accept that it is possible for someone somtime to knock off one of his old favorite players.

I mean i don't think Lebron is as good as Bird or really even all that close yet, but DNKO completly shuts the door on the possibility that Lebron could pass him up, while i think that it might happen in the future it just hasn't happened yet.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Yeah mine would probobly look like this

1.Jordan/Magic
3.Kareem
4.Wilt
5.Bird
6.Russel
7.Shaq
8.Hakeem
9.Duncan
10.West

Kobe-somwhere in the top 20 maybe top 15


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

futuristxen said:


> Probably something like this:
> 
> 1. Jordan
> 2. Wilt
> ...


No Oscar in your top 10?



VanillaPrice said:


> Yeah mine would probobly look like this
> 
> 1.Jordan/Magic
> 3.Kareem
> ...


You too man. No Oscar Robertson? The Big-O was Lebron James, before Lebron James.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I've got Oscar 11th.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

lol, Prime Oscar Robertson > Your favorite player.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

VanillaPrice said:


> DNKO just seems like he hates the current players in the league and just doesn't want to accept that it is possible for someone somtime to knock off one of his old favorite players.
> 
> I mean i don't think Lebron is as good as Bird or really even all that close yet, but DNKO completly shuts the door on the possibility that Lebron could pass him up, while i think that it might happen in the future it just hasn't happened yet.


Partially right. So what. I admit it. I'm from a school of thought that players from 80s and 90s were, simply put, real superstars.

Why?

Well first and foremost, there was no shortcuts to fame back in those days. There were no easy given props. Players earned each step of their way. They went to college, they didn't play for tremendous amount of money, and they actually played team basketball.

No one will convince me that the original Dream Team, in their age, would lose to today's Dream Team. 

Today we're in the faster everything, consumerism peaking, so I know that sports need heros ASAP. I know that. I know that audience can't deal with longevity. As in music, sport "icons" today must rotate FAST. 

And therefore I still think that James isn't THAT amazing or special or unique as they're telling me, but the drought of fans/media/Nike for that new icon, because they're fed up with Kobe.

That, plus the old saying that goes - if you keep telling the lie for long enough - eventually it will become the truth.

Chris Paul is a superstar on the same level as LeBron, yet nobody rambles about him and he didn't get any 24 hours TV on NBA and mark this - if it so happens that NOH win the ring - Paul will be forgotten quickly.

James' stardom is a project, not a deserved thing.

Dwight Howard plays like a freaking monster and nobody is even saying how Magic just ran and stomped 11-1 the west conference.

But Cavs win few games against below .50 teams - DESTINY, HISTORY, Bird comparisons, better than Kobe...

C'mon.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Well it's obvious you just don't like Bron, and while the media does indeed hype him up to much he still is an incredible player, and so far this year as much as i hate to admit it, Bron has played better then Kobe and should be given his props.

Yeah ESPN sucks and they are doing everything they can to turn Lebron into Jordan when he's clearly not, he's Lebron and i would hate to see such a terrific player career go to waste just because he wasn't as good as Jordan (See Kobe Bryant)


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

^ LeBron has averaged over 25ppg, 7rpg, & 7apg for his entire career. That right there imo shows that he is earning alot of his respect as we speak, but I agree that ppl calling him the GOAT already are absurd.... Longevity plays a big role in how ppl view a career, so we'll shall see how Lebron progresses. Guys like Stockton and Malone are examples of ppl great, in alot of ways, becuase of their longeivity.


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## Smallballs (Nov 19, 2008)

Forgive people their hyperbole. I think what most people reasonably believe is that LeBron is a young player who is currently on track to be an all-time great, and that is exciting.

Proclaiming him the GOAT right now is absurd. But shutting the door on him just because of how much attention he's receiving is 10 times more absurd.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

(1)Jordan
(2)Big-O
(3)Russell
(4)Wilt
(5)Magic
(6)Bird
(7)Shaq
(8)Kareem
(9)Hakeem
(10)Moses


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

VanillaPrice said:


> No, he's not. Larry Bird led his team to three chamionships ( he only had 2 finals MVP's but he was clearly the best player on that first championship team) while Lebron has led his team to the finals once in his first six years in the league only to get swept while he played awfully. Now im not saying that Lebron isn't a terrific player and that he won't pass up Bird, because it is very possible, but to say that if he wins ONE ring this year then it puts him above a top five player of all time.
> 
> Don't compare ages because wasn't Bird just coming in the league at 23? Compare their first six years in the league and then come back andsay that Lebron is better. I don't get why Bird has to be penalized for playing with great teammates, the fact is all of the contenders back then were absolutly stacked and Bird's team wasn't any more stacked then the Sixer or the Lakers ect.


This is a weird argument: you don't want to penalize Bird for having good teammates but you do want to penalize Lebron for having bad teammates (i.e. was Cleveland anywhere close to the Suprs or even Detroit that year in terms of talent? Nope). It's the team that determines winning not an individual. Jordan himself even in years where he was clearly better then everyone else didnt' win the title when he got adequate teammates.


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Probably something like this:
> 
> 1. Jordan
> 2. Wilt
> ...


nice list. i would put kareem higher -

1) mj
2) wilt
3) kareem
4) shaq
5) hakeem
6) duncan
7) magic
8) bird
9) russell
10) oscar


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> *You know what Larry Bird had by Lebron's age at 23? Jack ****. Lebron by the same age has 4 all-star appearences(should have gone his rookie year), 2 all-star MVPs, 2 NBA first teams(should have been three), and a gold medal, to go with multiple runs deep into the NBA playoffs. He's already been to the finals. And he has a chance to win a title this year.
> 
> Compare that to December of Bird's Rookie year.*
> And it's also a statement of fact that Larry Bird never averaged above 30 ppg for his career, and Lebron has already done it twice.
> ...


As i was antecipating, future delivers the comic relief regarding the direction the thread was going.
Tight on cue.

Just a thought: at age 23, Larry had played *176 *regular season games, considering College and the NBA. He is known as one of the best NCAA players ever and, in his rookie season, led the Celtics to a 32 wins turnaround.

At age 23, Lebron played *391 *regular season games. All against NBA competition.

Who SHOULD be more ready to take over? (hint: Bird won his first championship at age 24)


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

This is why LeBron needs to win a ring. It will shut people up.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> This is why LeBron needs to win a ring. It will shut people up.


I don't think that will happen until he has won multiple championships.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I certainly think LeBron has the opportunity to be one of the best ever , but to say he's close to guys like Bird and Magic or to say he's playing at a level those listed haven't is crazy. These guys who each have 3 or more rings, MVPs, and are done with their careers..

Whether he wins a ring this year or not, I still can't put him ahead of those guys yet...I'll wait until he's put in another 5-7 years work in the League and then i'll think about it.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> This is why LeBron needs to win a ring. It will shut people up.


The very *best *Lebron can do this year is win an MVP and a chammpionship. *Even *if it does accomplish that, only a lunatic would consider him at the Magic/Bird level.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Well there are a lot of looney toons nowadays...

Anyway, I'm off to watch Heat Cavs game, just to see what this fuss is all about


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> The very *best *Lebron can do this year is win an MVP and a chammpionship. *Even *if it does accomplish that, only a lunatic would consider him at the Magic/Bird level.


What? The Celtics and Lakers are stacked teams led by historically good players themselves. Garnett and Kobe are probably considered atleast top 15 of all-time by most, and they're playing alongside all-stars with a deep bench. Both teams are probably going to be 65 win teams. 

People can talk up the Cavs roleplayers all they want, but they're mediocre. They play good defense and play well together, but the talent level just isn't the same. 

If LeBron can get his team past both of those teams, especially in an MVP season, that would be a historically great accomplishment. 

And no, it's not absurd to think LeBron is on the same level with the very best of all-time. The numbers show it and the impact on his team shows it. The only thing that doesn't show it is the longevity but that's irrelevant when talking about peak value.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Now to set a debate are Cavs (who already won this season's Larry O'Brien in the eyes of many) bigger underdogs than Rick Barry's Warriors?


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

DNKO said:


> Now to set a debate are Cavs (*who already won this season's Larry O'Brien in the eyes of many*) bigger underdogs than Rick Barry's Warriors?


I'm convinced that you're trying to sound ridiculous now.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Wouldn't it just be easier to past my sarcastic remarks and just answer the question?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> What? The Celtics and Lakers are stacked teams led by historically good players themselves. Garnett and Kobe are probably considered atleast top 15 of all-time by most, and they're playing alongside all-stars with a deep bench. Both teams are probably going to be 65 win teams.
> 
> People can talk up the Cavs roleplayers all they want, but they're mediocre. They play good defense and play well together, but the talent level just isn't the same.
> 
> ...


You don't need big all star names on your team to have a better team. Just ask Hakeem about that, dont be so ignorant. This Cavs supporting group around LBJ is one of the top's in the league regardless if they don't have the big names.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

23AJ said:


> You don't need big all star names on your team to have a better team. Just ask Hakeem about that, dont be so ignorant. This Cavs supporting group around LBJ is one of the top's in the league regardless if they don't have the big names.


:azdaja:

Haven't you learned already, Cavs supporting cast are practically a worthless useless bunch and all credit is due to one man and one man only.

"other" Cavs player deserve to get thrown under the bus

Do you think that _____ (insert any player that actually won some championships in his life) would win a title playing with teammates LeBron has now?

Let's all be sad and empathic, poor Bron, has to do it all by himself


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

23AJ said:


> You don't need big all star names on your team to have a better team. Just ask Hakeem about that, dont be so ignorant. This Cavs supporting group around LBJ is one of the top's in the league regardless if they don't have the big names.


Talk them up all you want. Lakers and Celtics are 30 win teams atleast without Kobe and Garnett. Cavs without LeBron are the Thunder.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Talk them up all you want. Lakers and Celtics are 30 win teams atleast without Kobe and Garnett. Cavs without LeBron are the Thunder.


Sounds like the asinine dribble people use to say about the Houston Rockets before they won a title with Hakeem. There were other teams with huge superstars, with bigger names/all stars on their role players as well, when Hakeem/Rockets won the title. So Save it, the days of LeBron not having a solid core are over. The Cavs have upgraded, their players are better, and so is LBJ. He' has guy's playing great right now. Ben Wallace is a stud again, a what 4 time DPOTY were talking about here. Andy V is an awesome defender/rebounder, a game changer on defense. Mo Williams pick up was perfect for the Cavs. They now have a player who can make big shots, create for himself, and take pressure off of LBJ. Now guy's like West/Gibson can play their roles, spot up shoot the 3 ball or drive off the pump fake from 3 point land. The bench is there for the Cavs, and guess what I didn't even mention their All Star Center Z, oh yeah and then they have this guy who's arguably the best player in the game. Great coaching, team chemistry and everything I listed up above are going to win you a lot of games.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

ben wallace was never even the best defender named wallace on the pistons...Who gives a crap if he won a DPOY award...that has to be the most bogus argument ever.DO you even believe that crap?This is an argument so thin we can barely see what the purpose of it is...Perhaps it's comedy?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Diable said:


> ben wallace was never even the best defender named wallace on the pistons...Who gives a crap if he won a DPOY award...that has to be the most bogus argument ever.DO you even believe that crap?This is an argument so thin we can barely see what the purpose of it is...Perhaps it's comedy?


Way to take one single element out of my entire statement to make a point, but your point's not valid. Also That's a lot more bogus than Ben Wallace's defensive player of the year awards.

And to respond to your Ben Wallace comment. He's a great defender one of the best, very deserving of his awards. Sheed also takes to many nights off, and isn't mentally focused enough to win awards. Unfortunately to, because Sheed's potential, and skills are off the charts.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Lebron's team isn't neccassarily as talented as some of the other teams in the league, but over time they have all developed incredible chemsistry and teamwork, and that has turned them into a great team, when on paper they look like a pretty mediocore one.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Sounds like the asinine dribble people use to say about the Houston Rockets before they won a title with Hakeem. There were other teams with huge superstars, with bigger names/all stars on their role players as well, when Hakeem/Rockets won the title.


And Hakeem in those two seasons was not only easily the best player in the game in those two years, but those two seasons put him on the map as one of the all-time great peak players. Putting LeBron in that category only helps his case. 



23AJ said:


> The Cavs have upgraded, their players are better, and so is LBJ. He' has guy's playing great right now. Ben Wallace is a stud again, a what 4 time DPOTY were talking about here. Andy V is an awesome defender/rebounder, a game changer on defense. Mo Williams pick up was perfect for the Cavs. They now have a player who can make big shots, create for himself, and take pressure off of LBJ. Now guy's like West/Gibson can play their roles, spot up shoot the 3 ball or drive off the pump fake from 3 point land. The bench is there for the Cavs, and guess what I didn't even mention their All Star Center Z, oh yeah and then they have this guy who's arguably the best player in the game. Great coaching, team chemistry and everything I listed up above are going to win you a lot of games.


Players getting more than 20 minutes per game on each team: 

Ilgauskas
Williams
West
Gibson
Wallace
Varejao

Gasol
Bynum
Odom
Fisher
Ariza

Pierce
Allen
Rondo
Perkins

Are you kidding me? It's not even close. Like I said, talk up average players all you want, but they're simply not as good as you want them to be. Cavs don't have anyone outside of LeBron that is even better than the Lakers and Celtics top 3. Hell Odom doesn't even start on LA and he might be the 2nd best player on the Cavs. 

There is reason that the Lakers and Celtics *are* better than the Cavs, and I don't think the Cavs can beat either team, but I don't think anyone can deny LeBron's greatness if he and his team did pull it off.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Oh and the Celtics and Lakers have great chemistry too. Just like the Cavs. Talent is the difference.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Sir Patchwork, I agree that the Lakers and the Celtics both have more talented players then the Cavs do, but to say that Odom would be the second best Cav is insane. Big Z and Mo are both definatly better then him, especially this year.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

I kinda stopped arguing with people who determined long ago (often before he came into the league) that they don't like Lebron. It's easy to tell who those people are, and they usually have little to offer in terms of substance in their attempts to feverishly discredit anything that Lebron has accomplished since he's entered the league. They tend to hide behind things like saying he should have been GOAT his rookie year based on his hype and all that. But that's all pretty transparent.

It's kind of sad actually. They're missing out on enjoying a generational talent just because they don't want to like him.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I don't like Lebron but i still respect him. I watch his games all the time and hes fun as hell to watch, just because i don't like him doesn't really hamper my argument in saying that Bird is better then him.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

VanillaPrice said:


> I don't like Lebron but i still respect him. I watch his games all the time and hes fun as hell to watch, just because i don't like him doesn't really hamper my argument in saying that Bird is better then him.


I wasn't referring to you.

Hell, I love Lebron and I acknowledge that a prime Bird was definitely better. I'm not sure the gap is as wide as some would like to make is seem (partially for their dislike of Lebron, partially because we have a habit of deifying past legends), but it's definitely there. However, Bird was a rookie at Lebron's age, and his career also ended pretty early. So there's a lot of time for Lebron not only to have a higher peak, but also to rack up the longevity accolades.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Oh, sorry i just assumed you were because my post was right above yours.

My bad.


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## Smallballs (Nov 19, 2008)

Brandname said:


> I kinda stopped arguing with people who determined long ago (often before he came into the league) that they don't like Lebron. It's easy to tell who those people are, and they usually have little to offer in terms of substance in their attempts to feverishly discredit anything that Lebron has accomplished since he's entered the league. They tend to hide behind things like saying he should have been GOAT his rookie year based on his hype and all that. But that's all pretty transparent.
> 
> It's kind of sad actually. They're missing out on enjoying a generational talent just because they don't want to like him.


Good post. 

A certain poster here reminds me of a poster who posted a lot during LeBron's first couple of years in the league. Anyone remember therealdeal?

You're probably wondering how I know about that. Yeah, I used to follow this board way back in the day.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Edit...naw..naw. I ain't gonna say **** on this matter. It is what it is. I'm a hater. Wave @ me.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

:wave:


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

"Hi my name is DNKO and i'm a hater.."

AA Class : "Hi DNKO"


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Brandname said:


> I wasn't referring to you.
> 
> Hell, I love Lebron and I acknowledge that a prime Bird was definitely better. I'm not sure the gap is as wide as some would like to make is seem (partially for their dislike of Lebron, partially because we have a habit of deifying past legends), but it's definitely there. However, Bird was a rookie at Lebron's age, and his career also ended pretty early. So there's a lot of time for Lebron not only to have a higher peak, but also to rack up the longevity accolades.


This, at least, is a reasonable post.

What people don't seem to grasp is the greatness of Legends like Bird or Magic. I truly believe only an handfull of posters have seen both guys play in their time. So the vast majority doesn't know. They don't know about Bird's 40/20 games. They don't know that he once had a trople double AT HALFTIME. They don't know why a Celtics coach used to call Bird Kojac (sp?).
That's OK.
But, man, just look at the freaking stats and accomplishments. It's easy, they are all over the place. multiple MVP winner, multiple championships. perennial All-Nba, etc., etc. The season before he broke his back he was 29.9/9.3/6.1, for Christ's sake. And scoring +520FG% and .900FT%!
So now, all of the sydden, if Lebron wins a championship he is Bird's par? Or better even? People need to have a sense of ridicule, here. Dudes area saying Lebron can't be stopped in offense and is a better defender than Bird ever was. Well, guess what? Kobe Bryant is the better defender of the trio, is knowned to be one of the most dominant offensive players ever, has 3 championships, one MVP, multiple All-Nba teams on BOTH teams, and even if he won a championship this year as the Laker's main man he would still not be at Bird's (or Magic's level). 

Lebron is a great player. Yes. He is amazing. He can end up being as great or greater than Larry Bird. He has many, many years left in his career to do so. But trying to compare both players right now (considering Lebron wins it all this year) is freaking asinine.

/rant.


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## Smallballs (Nov 19, 2008)

This thread has been seriously derailed. If you recall, the topic of this thread is whether or not LeBron would achieve separation from Wade and Kobe if he won the title this year, with this team.

But I'm starting to think it's a moot point. I'm not sure anymore that the Cavaliers are talented enough to win this year.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I think they're fine. I mean, they were bound to have a down stretch, this is it. This is the point where the season isn't in it's infancy anymore, so teams that blew out of the gate are probably going to hit their first wall. The Lakers had it, the Cavs and Celts are going through it now.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Prolific Scorer said:


> "Hi my name is DNKO and i'm a hater.."
> 
> AA Class : "Hi DNKO"


Hilarious


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

Im just glad there's a player out there of Lebron's caliber who is exceeding every expectations people put on him. There was a time where one player after the other (Penny, Grant Hill, Tmac, Vince) was showcasing failure year in and out after such tremendous task were given to them. This guy is spectacular. Lets all enjoy the ride.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Amen to that.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Did I miss some games? I keep reading about how the Cavs are in a down stretch. They lost one game. Right? The Celtics have lost 3 of their last 4. And the team that Beat the Cavs was the same team that Beat the Lakers a few weeks ago.

Sure the Cavs didn't blow out the Wizards or Heat, but they won those games.

If one loss is the Cavs down period, then the rest of the league better watch out.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Well, they arn't playing as well as they were, although i still wouldn't call this a down period unless they drop a few more.


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## Smallballs (Nov 19, 2008)

Their defense is strong, as usual, and that's why they're still winning the games they're winning. Their offense is hardly looking like the best in the league, though, as it once was. They aren't scoring as much as they were earlier in the season.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

How about Dwight leading that All Star ballot lol


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Smallballs said:


> Their defense is strong, as usual, and that's why they're still winning the games they're winning. Their offense is hardly looking like the best in the league, though, as it once was. They aren't scoring as much as they were earlier in the season.


Well the offense is slowing because Z is coming back from injury and isn't 100 percent yet. And I think Miami was Gibson's like second game back from injury. And Wally Z's rotation playing *** is out right now as well. So they are just experiencing the normal NBA grind. You go through stretches where people are banged up and you are maybe partying too much(X/mas, Lebron's Birthday, and New Years) and not focused on playing basketball like you should be, and then you lose some games you shouldn't lose because the other team is paying attention and gets a nice shooting game.

This is why it's so hard to win 72 and why I doubt anyone is going to do it again anytime soon.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

DNKO said:


> How about Dwight leading that All Star ballot lol


:yay:

That's what's up! He deserves it. Hopefully he'll come out on top in the end.... 

It's amazing to see how his game is evolving. He is becoming alot more patient and poised then he used to be and his passing is getting soo much better. He is also playing every game the same way, instead of pouting when he doesnt get the ball like he used to. This year if he doesnt get the ball or is strugling on offense, he will still rebound and plays D with the same intensity. He definitely deserves the recognition he is getting.

As for the topic, I think the whole CLE falling off talk is rediculous. They're going through some injuries just like every other team does, but dont be rediculous, they aren't going anywhere. The east still runs through BOS/CLE/DET/ORL just like last year. LeBron wont let that team fall though, regardless. As long as LBJ is healthy, that team has a shot to win any game they're apart of and they dont take a backseat to anybody. You could say the same thing about DWade in Miami. As long as he is on the court, that team has a legit chance to win any game.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Plus if the Cavs get desperate they have a couple trades just waiting to get made to upgrade the team. Ferry was reticent to make a trade while the team was on it's win streak, so we'll see what he does now that they've lost a game.

Hopefully Gerald Wallace will soon be in a Cavalier's jersey instead of Pavlovic and Szerbiak.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Gerald Wallace? How?? If you guys got him that wouldn't even be fair...


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Yeah seriously, the Lakers need him way more then the Cavs.

Walton+ filler for Crash.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Z out for 3-4 weeks with a bone chip in his injured ankle. Going to be hard to keep a shot at homecourt. This could seriously dent the Cavs title chances. He was playing maybe the best ball of his career before he hurt it


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Oh wow, that reallly sucks for you guys, Z was doing great and he was really your only inside scoring threat outside of Bron.


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

Yeah, Z being out is terrible. It's just like one of Boston's big 3 or Gasol (for the Lake Show) being out 3-4 weeks. 

We are most certainly not going to keep up our present pace, bye bye homecourt. Aside from the playoff seed, I also hope we win enough games for LBJ to earn his first MVP, he deserves it.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Just make up more stupid trades where the best player on the bobcats goes somewhere for two guys who can't play a lick...eventually you'll think of one stupid enough for MJ to accept.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Diable said:


> Just make up more stupid trades where the best player on the bobcats goes somewhere for two guys who can't play a lick...eventually you'll think of one stupid enough for MJ to accept.


Well in the Cavs deal Nazr Mohammad would have to be included most likely, so you're shedding pretty much all of your long term contracts.

At any rate, the Cavs may need to look at Kaman now that Z is injured, or some kind of deal involving Brad Miller and John Salmons.

Or they could just do nothing. I think Z will hurt, but not as bad as people are suggesting. This opens up time for JJ Hickson, who as you saw tonight is pretty ready to come in and contribute. And Anderson Varejao looks more than happy to pick up some scoring load(26 tonight). But I think all the Cavs will need to do is post Lebron a little more.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

If I deal with the cavs Hickson is coming home


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Diable said:


> If I deal with the cavs Hickson is coming home


Charlotte better get Hickson back otherwise MJ a bigger moron as a GM then I though. Wally for Wallace and Nazr really doesn't help charlotte long terms if winning is your goal


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

None of these idiot onesided trades are going to happen and there's a very simple reason.It would be organizational suicide for the charlotte bobcats.The Cats need Wallace to maintain some semblance of interest in their lousy team.


The only way the bobcats can trade Gerald is if they get back something they can put on the floor and give their fanbase some hope for the future.If they had the audacity to trade him for expirings it would be the end of the charlotte bobcats...What little interest there is in this team would disappear in an instant.Therefore you can only make these idiotic trades if you are interested in moving the team...And that probably can't be done under current economic circumstances.


It's absolutley funny to think that if bob johnson had given me control over who he drafted four years ago he'd probably be something like 100 million the better for it.the mistakes they've made since they took May instead of granger and Morrison instead of Roy have been utterly devastating.If they'd made the right choice either time they'd be a moderately successful organization,and instead they've lost tens of millions.They did get that cute tarheel marketing campaign and the fake moustache marketing campaign...that was amusing.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I was kidding when i made my trade idea in case you didn't get that....


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Diable said:


> None of these idiot onesided trades are going to happen and there's a very simple reason.It would be organizational suicide for the charlotte bobcats.The Cats need Wallace to maintain some semblance of interest in their lousy team.
> 
> 
> The only way the bobcats can trade Gerald is if they get back something they can put on the floor and give their fanbase some hope for the future.If they had the audacity to trade him for expirings it would be the end of the charlotte bobcats...What little interest there is in this team would disappear in an instant.Therefore you can only make these idiotic trades if you are interested in moving the team...And that probably can't be done under current economic circumstances.
> ...


The BobCats are such a dissappointment. I remember back when the Hornets first came into being: Charlotte's stadium, fans, everything was great. It looked like a model franchise and an absolute terrific add to the league.

Stern along with the whole Seattle fiasco really deserves a lot of scrutiny with letting Shinn ruining a viable region and then letting them have to deal with places NO, Memphis, etc.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Diable said:


> None of these idiot onesided trades are going to happen and there's a very simple reason.It would be organizational suicide for the charlotte bobcats.The Cats need Wallace to maintain some semblance of interest in their lousy team.
> 
> 
> The only way the bobcats can trade Gerald is if they get back something they can put on the floor and give their fanbase some hope for the future.If they had the audacity to trade him for expirings it would be the end of the charlotte bobcats...What little interest there is in this team would disappear in an instant.Therefore you can only make these idiotic trades if you are interested in moving the team...And that probably can't be done under current economic circumstances.
> ...


I know as a fan you hate the fact that it's going to happen. But it's going to happen. 

The actual deal I've heard is something like Szerbiak's expiring going to the Knicks, Eddy Curry going to the Bobcats, GForce going to the Cavs, and I think the Bobcats would also get a Cavs first rounder.

The Knicks clear more capspace and move Curry's fat butt. The bobcats get a young big to put with Okafor so they can play him at power forward. And the Cavs turn Wally Szerbiak into gerald wallace.

I think there might be other pieces in there to make the salaries work, but the rumors I've heard, those are the principles. Plus that helps Cleveland avoid taking back Nazr, I think And they keep their core. They MIGHT be sending Jackson to the Bobcats in that trade as well, but I don't remember. It may be either the draft pick or jackson.

But it probably wouldn't be straight up wally for gforce for marketing reasons.

Still be a **** trade for the Bobcats, but look who they got for Jason Richardson. That's a cheap team run by stupid people. They deserve not to be supported. Bob Johnson has done nothing to try and put a legit basketball product on the floor. Them drafting UNC players every year is a farce.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

^ Why would the Bobcats do a complicated 3 or 4-way trade, makes no sense when they can get expiring contracts and youth from many other teams in a straight 2-team trade. Hell, Cavs aren't even the preferred trading partner among the title contenders; Lakers have Odom's $12M expiring contract and throw in Trevor Ariza to boot, and that's better than a bum like Eddy Curry.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

EHL said:


> ^ Why would the Bobcats do a complicated 3 or 4-way trade, makes no sense when they can get expiring contracts and youth from many other teams in a straight 2-team trade. Hell, Cavs aren't even the preferred trading partner among the title contenders; Lakers have Odom's $12M expiring contract and throw in Trevor Ariza to boot, and that's better than a bum like Eddy Curry.


The Bobcats want a young big center. So the deal would most likely be Gasol or Bynum for Wallace. Still want to do that trade?

Hell, you're crazy for offering Ariza and Odom for Wallace. Two of your top rotation players for someone who can't shoot the 3, and gives you basically exactly what Ariza already gives you. If the Lakers are offering that trade, they are stupid and I hope they make it.

Cavs are also looking at Mike Miller and Chris Kaman. They're not as desperate to make a trade as the Lakers are apparently, because they aren't willing to trade any of their core, while the Lakers are.

You really should only trade Odom for an elite player that is definitely better than him.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Yeah i really don't want to get rid of Ariza.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

^ I don't want to get rid of Ariza either, but Wallace is clearly better. And if the Lakers don't trade Odom they definitely get nothing for him this summer, futur. Wallace isn't _that_ bad that Ariza+Odom would be a bad deal, since LO is gone this summer. Ariza is a poor man's Wallace at best, anyway, and would probably benefit a ton from the Lakers' coaching staff and Bryant, much like Ariza has.

And if the Cats want a big, why Eddy Curry? What team is going to win anything meaningfull with Eddy Curry as their starting C? I don't see it.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

IF LeBron wins the title this year, it would be just below Wade's championship. The Cavs have a better roster than the 06 Heat did.

However, LeBron would immediately be vaulted among high in the NBA. He would only be what, 24 years old and already beginning his dynasty? Reminds me of MJ. Took MJ 7 seasons to begin the dynasty from a horrible lottery team to first championship. LeBron came to a horrible lottery team too. The similarities are there.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Eeesh. Cavs may need to trade for a Center afterall. With Z out they just got slaughtered on the boards against the Wizards. They also are really missing his offense. Without Z, the Cavs are pretty much the same team as the Heat, but more veterans.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Yeah, I think the injury to Big Z is definitely going to cause problems for the Cavaliers. That's still no excuse to lose to the Wizards, though. I'm shocked they called LeBron for a travel at the end.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Basel said:


> Yeah, I think the injury to Big Z is definitely going to cause problems for the Cavaliers. That's still no excuse to lose to the Wizards, though. I'm shocked they called LeBron for a travel at the end.


That's the wizards for you though. I'm pretty sure beating the Cavs is the only thing they care about in their season anymore.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Basel said:


> Yeah, I think the injury to Big Z is definitely going to cause problems for the Cavaliers. That's still no excuse to lose to the Wizards, though. I'm shocked they called LeBron for a travel at the end.


Blah the Cavs lost because they played like **** (except for Lebron) for 3 quarters. Getting out rebounded by Wiz by about 20 boards take a lot hard work (or I should say the exact opposite). The Cavs better realize that w/o Z they go from having a big frontline to a small one and that means everyone's got to hit the glass


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

jj hickson power, activate!


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Cavs have been playing poor for awhile now. It will be interesting to see what happens with big Z out, and it will show people how important he is to the Cavs team. Because we always hear how LeBron doesn't have a good team, when the Cavs are healthy it's an extremely good team. Big Z is key, and is going to be a big hole. That said you can't really claim injuries when your playing the Wizards, who are missing key players as well. Like their own center Haywood, and Arenas.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

ChrisRichards said:


> IF LeBron wins the title this year, it would be just below Wade's championship. The Cavs have a better roster than the 06 Heat did.
> 
> However, LeBron would immediately be vaulted among high in the NBA. He would only be what, 24 years old and already beginning his dynasty? Reminds me of MJ. Took MJ 7 seasons to begin the dynasty from a horrible lottery team to first championship. LeBron came to a horrible lottery team too. The similarities are there.


I disagree, if Lebron wins the ship this year he will have had to go through a very goof Celtic team, which by the way is far and away better then any of the teams the Heat faced in their run. In addition the Cavs will have to deal with teams like the Hawks, Magic, Pistons, ect. and more then likely deal with a stacked L.A. team. So if Lebron can keep up his current pace and beat these teams en route to a title, I think that he will and rightfully should be rated higher then Wades finals MVP.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Fw days ago, NBA awarded James & Co. with atrociously and ridiculously given game against one of the worst teams in the league.

Now they lost to them.

January is the month where James will get exposed, looking at their schedule for this month, it's pretty clear what will happen to "70 win Cavs".

Anybody noticed the travel on James' last play? 

It's getting to a point where I think he's doing it on purpose. But never have I thouhg they would actually whistle him for it, especially when he was going for his signature buldozer entrance.

Never did I think I'd see the day...


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

VanillaPrice said:


> I disagree, if Lebron wins the ship this year he will have had to go through a very goof Celtic team, which by the way is far and away better then any of the teams the Heat faced in their run. In addition the Cavs will have to deal with teams like the Hawks, Magic, Pistons, ect. and more then likely deal with a stacked L.A. team. So if Lebron can keep up his current pace and beat these teams en route to a title, I think that he will and rightfully should be rated higher then Wades finals MVP.


Don't sleep on the 60 win Mavericks who the Heat beat in the finals. that was a very impressive team. Not only where they extremely good, but they knocked off the defending champion Spurs, who (spurs) went back to the finals the next season to sweep the LeBron led Cavs in a laugher. However that Mavs vs. Spurs semi finals was epic, and one of the reasons they were the heavy favorites against the Heat in the finals. And the Pistons were no slouches by the way. People do seem to underrate the Heat's championship.

Right now these extremely good teams are coming back down to earth, I wouldn't be shocked at all if the Cavs didn't get 60 wins this season, if boston barely clips 60 wins, and the Lakers only get in the high 50s. Teams tend to come back to their averages, and cool off. This season started out historically, but seems to be crashing back down to earth. Time will tell. So we shouldn't overrate this season, and playoffs until we can actually look back upon it and see how it turns out.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

DNKO said:


> Fw days ago, NBA awarded James & Co. with atrociously and ridiculously given game against one of the worst teams in the league.
> 
> Now they lost to them.
> 
> ...


Yes LeBron is notorious for traveling. Dude get's away with it most of the time though, so I can't really hate the player, but more the ref's for taking exceptions to superstar's. It's the old NBA treatment. Fair ? Not at all, but it's reality. So LeBron and any good superstar is going to exploit any advantage they may have.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

> *"Bad call," said James, who compiled 30 points, 10 assists and six rebounds. "We all make mistakes, and I think I got the wrong end of the bargain. I watched it 10 times after the game, and it was clearly a good play."*
> 
> Without raising his voice or getting particularly animated, James dissected the game's key sequence in extensive detail -- even pointing out that he felt he was fouled as he released the shot, which went in.
> 
> ...


http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290104027


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

It kinda looks like a travel?

Well...if it looks like a horse, sounds like a horse, and has a saddle on it's back, then, probably, it is a horse.

I just watched a replay. I can't describe his move. Some strange bounce step then two step then layup. If that's not traveling then it must be double dribble. Never in my life I've seen anyone going to the basket like that. He got the ball made two small quick steps and then made "normal" long steps that people usually do when they go for a layup.

Either way, he really shouldn't be talking about that as his "signature move".


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

DNKO said:


> It kinda looks like a travel?
> 
> Well...if it looks like a horse, sounds like a horse, and has a saddle on it's back, then, probably, it is a horse.
> 
> ...


Why do you hate every current player in the league so much?


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> He would absolutely own the basketball world. Considering he would have to go through the Celtics to get to the finals, then would have to beat Kobe and the Lakers to win the title, it would be remarkable.
> 
> Probably more Jordan-esque than anything even Jordan did. LeBron-esque. It would be the equivelant of Jordan beating both the Celtics and Lakers in the 80's.



:lol:


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

croco said:


> You can play even at the level of Michael Jordan for a period of time and right now Lebron is doing this. It just depends how long that stretch is, the longer the better of course.


Lebron is not playing at Jordan's ('88-'96) level right now. Production is important, but it's not everything. There's also defensive impact, ability to raise your game on command, game management, leadership etc. He may get there, but he's not there now.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Diable said:


> bird's career was cut short by his back injury.I'd say that Lebron has already done as much as he did individually.He's not as skilled a passer as bird and he scores in different ways,but other than that Lebron is already better than Bird.It's not really that big a deal.If Bird hadn't gotten hurt you might have more of a problem arguing that Lebron has been better,but he did get hurt.


Wow. Lebron isn't as good as Bird was. Bird was a far better shooter, far better post player, better passer, better rebounder, far better clutch player, at least a comparable scorer, better team defender, and had far better intangibles. I'd take '84-'87 Bird any day over Lebron and be confident with my choice.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

VanillaPrice said:


> Why do you hate every current player in the league so much?


Why do you follow me around my every post? I didn't hate, I just said what I saw.

I understand that your comment on that game would be "greatest game I've ever seen, too bad he played alone and no other Cavs showed up, those weren't travels" but I won't say that so quit trying.

I don't hate anybody that I don't actually know. And I don't know any current NBA player.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Umm, i am a Laker fan i don't like Lebron, i think this might be the first time that i've ever replied to one of your posts so i'm not "following you around" as you put it. I like the 80's players better then i do todays players for the most part, but you just blatenly hate on Lebron and it's sort of annoying.

How about you bring something productive to the conversation instead of constantly singling out a certain player and bashing him.

Jesus, your almost as bad as Diplomat.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

I just said what I saw on the replay of that game - and I'm bashing?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

You've been bashing Lebron throughout this entire thread.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Basel said:


> http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290104027


And here's the counterargument from Caron Butler:



> "It's a travel," Butler said. "It was the exact same move two years ago in the playoffs.


From Antawn Jamison:


> "I know what a crab dribble is," Antawn Jamison said.
> 
> Was that it?
> 
> "I don't think it was," Jamison said.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2009/01/lebron_deshawn_and_the_travel.html

Another quote from Butler:



> "I definitely knew he travelled, but I didn't know they were going to call it. That was one of them situations in which a great player made a move, good officiating, and they called the call. And I was like, 'Oh, man, there is a God."'


http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jnKQTIe89J1CPUV89FEWWfEq-iKA


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

> "It's a travel," Butler said. "It was the exact same move two years ago in the playoffs.


Ooohhhh.. No he didnt! :sparta:


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Butler is right though, it does seem like it takes a an act of Divine Intervention to get a travel called on LeBron. Your prayers were answered Caron. Enjoy it, it's probably not going to happen again. for a long time.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Lebron doesn't travel more then any other superstar perimeter player in the league. There's just more attention because of the one last second shot he had against the Wizards and this game was against the Wizards.

I thought it was a good call: Lebron would have had a good shot if he pulled up earlier but he wanted to make it easier. He got caught and it won't be the last time (he had for example two travel call late in a game against the Nets a few years back that cost us that game). So I don't see Lebron getting anymore favorable treatment then other players. Blame the NBA as a whole for not enforcing travels stringently if you want as this is not a Lebron phenomena

In any case much ado about nothing: Cavs lost this game because the Wizards outplayed them and worse for the Cavs outhustled them to get a ton of boards. Team has just not been the same since Z's and Boobie's injuries. Lost a consistent shooter who was finding his stroke and the guy who was having a career year: a 7 footer who can board and has good range to the 3 point line was just opening up the entire offense for everybody not just Lebron. Now the team is looking more like last year's inconsistent one depending on Lebron mode: they have not responded very well unfortunately so far.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

its good the refs finally called it. hopefully they continue to do so with him, and other players. would help a great deal in making the game more legitimate.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Lebron is not playing at Jordan's ('88-'96) level right now. Production is important, but it's not everything. There's also defensive impact, ability to raise your game on command, game management, leadership etc. He may get there, but he's not there now.


He has in fact been better. Your interpretation of leadership and defense is highly suspect in any case. Deal with it homer.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I don't think Lebron is playing better then peak Jordan but, he's been playing better then Jordan in '98 and '97.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

^ Statistically LeBron has been better than Jordan has ever been, this season. He's also a much better passer and rebounder. It's not at all out of line to say he has played better than Jordan this season. Of course, I personally don't expect it to last, it has only been 30 games or something.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Not better then Jordan's 32/8/8 3 steal almost a block with slightly better D.

I hate sticking up for Jordan but whatever.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

VanillaPrice said:


> Not better then Jordan's 32/8/8 3 steal almost a block with slightly better D.
> 
> I hate sticking up for Jordan but whatever.


yeah. i mean come on now. lets not get carried away. 88-96 jordan was god like, especially that year when he won dpoy and lead the league in scoring.


its such a monumental task for lebron to exceed a status like mj's who plays way better defense and offense than lebron.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Like I said in another thread, Lebron's not going to be able to challenge Jordan until he develops a strong post game. Once he can play the 1-4 at an all-star level, it's going to be worth debating. 

For now though, it's next to impossible for any wing player of the foreseeable future to be compared to Jordan, because he had no weaknesses at the 2 position, and he was as efficient as anyone. In order to really get on his level (for more than one season) you're going to have to be an unstoppable offensive player from the inside-out, not to mention a very good all around defender. Either that or be Shaq with free throw shooting, ballhandling ability and a jumper.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Jordan couldn't play the four at an all star level, sorry.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

yeah dre, thats an exaggeration dont you think?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

If versitility was the main factor the Magic would unquestionably be #1( i personally think he has a great arguement but thats a completly different arguement).

I don't think that a player needs to excell at that many positions, as long as the positions that he does play, he plays them incredibly.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I was referring to Lebron playing the 1-4 on an all-star level :yes:

And no, my point wasn't just about being versatile, but no wing player is going to beat MJ, because he's pretty much a perfect perimeter player. A perimeter player aspiring to be better than Jordan would have to have a skillset (and physical gifts) better than him. Magic has flaws that take him out of the conversation.

Can you imagine trying to gameplan Lebron for 48 minutes when he can get it to the basket whenever he wants, run the offense, get whatever shot he wants (and convert), and be an effective player off the postup? And do any one of those things on an all-star level for 40 minutes? That might very well be the most unstoppable player ever. Which is the true point I was trying to make.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Why would Lebron have to play al four at an allstar level, when Jordan didn't?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Because like I said, there's no (very little) way for a wing player to be better than Jordan. Kobe is as close as we'll get for a very long time, and even he needed to have brought more to the table. Jordan had no flaws in his game, and if you get to that level, you're comparable but if you want to be *better*...then you'll need a factor in your game he didn't have.

I wouldn't take this Lebron over Jordan. He's going to have to add to his game.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Well he wasn't an outstanding three point shooter, nor was he amazing at the line, ( good yes, but not great) he wasn't an out of this world passer, and outside of a few earlier years, his rebounding was THAT exceptional.

So yeah, it is pretty hard to top Jordan.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm not sure if that last statement was meant to be facetious, but even with those points you raised, yes, it's very hard to top him.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Anyway, back to the topic I think that if Lebron can win a title with a league which is much deeper then the one that Wade won his in, i think that it would be undeniable that Lebron's is ranked higher.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Cavs have been playing poor for awhile now. It will be interesting to see what happens with big Z out, and it will show people how important he is to the Cavs team. Because we always hear how LeBron doesn't have a good team, when the Cavs are healthy it's an extremely good team. Big Z is key, and is going to be a big hole. That said you can't really claim injuries when your playing the Wizards, who are missing key players as well. Like their own center Haywood, and Arenas.


Having Big Z on top of Lebron is what's important. If Z were by himself or on say the Bobcats, that team would still be a lottery team. Z is as important to the Cavs as any key piece is in championship team. People have always known he's important to the Cavs. He's been their second best player all through Lebron's career. And Cavs fans DEFINITELY respect Z's contribution. He was playing at an all-star level before he got hurt.

Without Lebron the Cavs can't even win a game, but without Z, they SHOULD beat teams like the Wiz.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Having Big Z on top of Lebron is what's important. If Z were by himself or on say the Bobcats, that team would still be a lottery team. Z is as important to the Cavs as any key piece is in championship team. People have always known he's important to the Cavs. He's been their second best player all through Lebron's career. And Cavs fans DEFINITELY respect Z's contribution. He was playing at an all-star level before he got hurt.
> 
> Without Lebron the Cavs can't even win a game, but without Z, they SHOULD beat teams like the Wiz.


I think Illgauskas would add at least 4 more wins to the Bobcats which would land them a playoff spot (if the playoffs started today).


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

EHL said:


> ^ Statistically LeBron has been better than Jordan has ever been, this season. He's also a much better passer and rebounder. It's not at all out of line to say he has played better than Jordan this season. Of course, I personally don't expect it to last, it has only been 30 games or something.


Much better passer an rebounder? Uhh, no. Especially passer. Lebon is a slightly better rebounder (virtually not at all if you account for position and teammates; check their TRB%). He puts up more assists because of the way his offense is structured (as well as other reasons relating to the way the game is played now that I won't delve into). Jordan was putting up 5.5-6+ ast in an offense where he didn't have the ball in his hands much at all, and wasn't the primary distributor. He was able to get 5.5-6+ ast while having a teammate getting 6-7 ast as well. Also, flat out, Lebron is not a better passer than Jordan was, never mind "much better." He does possibly have better vision, though.

And statistically the only metric he's better in is PER (slightly), and there are 50 games left to be played. And then there's defensive impact. And game management. And intangibles. And clutchness and ability to raise one's game.

I have to laugh at anyone who thinks that Lebron this season is playing at a higher level than prime Jordan. It just betrays a shockingly naive and uninformed mentality. I wouldn't expect any better from a Laker fan, though. If Lebron is currently playing better than Jordan ever did, how much better is he than Kobe or Magic ever was? The mind boggles.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

EHL said:


> He has in fact been better. Your interpretation of leadership and defense is highly suspect in any case. Deal with it homer.



LMAO @ a Laker homer telling me that Lebron has been better this year than a player widely considered the GOAT in his prime. My a$$. What a joke. :lol:

LOL @ "my interpretation of leadership and defense." :lol:


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

I also have to laugh at anyone who suggests that Jordan was just a "slightly" better defender than Lebron. I mean, come on now. Some dude on another board actually had the gall to suggest that Lebron's current D = 90's Jordan defense ('90-'96). It's just ridiculous, really. Lebron has made great strides defensively, but he doesn't impact games on that end the way Jordan did. He may never. There are only 2-3 perimeter players in history who can say that they did.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> I
> 
> Can you imagine trying to gameplan Lebron for 48 minutes when he can get it to the basket whenever he wants, run the offense, get whatever shot he wants (and convert), and be an effective player off the postup? And do any one of those things on an all-star level for 40 minutes? That might very well be the most unstoppable player ever. Which is the true point I was trying to make.


I can actually. Because that's what he's doing right now. On top of that he's the leader of the team defensively(one of the best in the league) and has turned many a game with just his defensive intensity. He probably is going to get some votes for Defensive player of the Year this year(won't win it though most likely). Both he and DWade are defending at a very high level, though I'd say Lebron is better at man-to-man defense than Wade. But Wade is a little better at sneaking in on the back side and getting steals and blocks(which is incredible for his size, because Lebron is really good at those things as well).

No one has ever played at the level that Lebron is playing at this season. We'll see if it lasts. But I think your misconstruing numbers that have been lowered by playing time with him not playing at a higher level this season.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

f22egl said:


> I think Illgauskas would add at least 4 more wins to the Bobcats which would land them a playoff spot (if the playoffs started today).


I think you're talking ****. Maybe when Z was younger. But he can't be the focal point of an offense at his age. Have you ever seen what happens when he gets trapped? He never gets triple teamed on the Cavs because of Lebron. And he really doesn't get doubled that much either.

If he didn't play with Lebron he'd be doubled and tripled in the post. And it's doubtful that Raymond Felton could get Z the wide open shots that Z gets from the wings, because teams wouldn't leave Z open to follow Felton.

If Z is worth 4 games, Lebron is worth over 40 games.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> I also have to laugh at anyone who suggests that Jordan was just a "slightly" better defender than Lebron. I mean, come on now. Some dude on another board actually had the gall to suggest that Lebron's current D = 90's Jordan defense ('90-'96). It's just ridiculous, really. Lebron has made great strides defensively, but he doesn't impact games on that end the way Jordan did. He may never. There are only 2-3 perimeter players in history who can say that they did.


Jordan played with two hall of fame defenders on his team during the title days. He always had jump shooters on his team too, and there was no zone defense to collapse the lane. Lebron does a lot more with a lot less than Jordan ever had.

Lebron straight out of high school would have made the playoffs on that Wizards team that Jordan failed to make the playoffs with.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

And anyone who suggests that Lebron isn't a better passer than Jordan ever was, obviously never watched Jordan play. There's a reason that Pippen was made the point forward on that team. Jordan just didn't have the instincts that Lebron has to include his teammates. It took Jordan a long time to trust his teammates, and even to the end in Washington he didn't trust them(to his detriment). Lebron has always trusted his teammates, even when the pressure was on him not to. The guy was making passes to Flip Murray to win games. That's how selfless his ego is. He just makes the right basketball play. Lebron I think has more Bird and Duncan in his game than Jordan. But obviously his explosiveness is the reason people compare him to Jordan, and because Jordan is so revered, so you have to compare the best to the best. But I'd say that Lebron plays the game very diffrently from Jordan and he's not a Jordan clone like Kobe and Wade are. Lebron plays more like Penny Hardaway, Magic, Bird, Duncan--those type of players. I think Lebron admired Jordan's winning ways growing up and wanted to be like him in that respect, but his game does not appear to be patterned on Jordan's game like Kobe and Wade's are.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Yet Z was an NBA all star center before LeBron entered the league. But yeah we know Z wouldn't be what he is with out LeBron James, wink wink.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Jordan played with two hall of fame defenders on his team during the title days. He always had jump shooters on his team too, and there was no zone defense to collapse the lane. Lebron does a lot more with a lot less than Jordan ever had.


Wow, we have another winner here. Are you suggesting that Lebron's defensive impact >= Jordan's? Just come out and say so so that I can disregard any further posts from you. Because that's just a JOKE.

As for Lebron doing more with less, uhh, no. Jordan made games 6 an 7 of the ECF with less than Lebron has now, and with his teammates playing like absolute crap when it mattered. Conversely, I'm pretty sure Jordan could have made it out of the '07 East. Pretty sure.

LOL @ talking about shooters and zone defense. You're the same clown who was talking up Kobe last year in comparison to Jordan, right? Now you've moved on to the new flavor of the month. It's pretty clear you have it out for Jordan.



> Lebron straight out of high school would have made the playoffs on that Wizards team that Jordan failed to make the playoffs with.


:lol:

The Wiz were in the 6th seed and on pace for 44-45 wins (after just 19 wins the previous season) before Jordan hurt his knee and sat out a month. Nice try, though.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> And anyone who suggests that Lebron isn't a better passer than Jordan ever was, obviously never watched Jordan play.


He's not a much better passer, if at all, than Jordan was. More willing passer? Arguably. Better vision? Possibly. But he's not a better passer than Jordan was at his best. 



> There's a reason that Pippen was made the point forward on that team. Jordan just didn't have the instincts that Lebron has to include his teammates.


What a bunch of BS. :lol: Dude, seriously, you're nuts.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> No one has ever played at the level that Lebron is playing at this season.


Wow. Nothing more needs to be said. Lebron is quickly becoming more overrated than even Kobe was.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Woah someone is comparing a defensive player of the year's defense and defensive numbers that dwarfs LeBrons over an entire course of a season to what LeBron has done in 30 odd games as better than that of MJ's. That's blatant sensationalizing the good things LeBron has done this season, but to catapult LBJ to that stratosphere isn't deserved or earned by Lebron yet. Kobe who IMO is a better defender than LeBron was never that great either, but hell no has LBJ got to that level. It's a slap in the face to all the great DPOTY award winners, and all NBA 1st team defenders, and guys who are playing right now in the league who are easily on par on the floor with LBJ on defense. Give its a rest dude. We all realize LeBron has made great strides, but no he's not a defensive player of the year award contender, and no he probably wont even make 1st team all defense. He' will probably get his first 2nd team all defense, much like D Wade did a few seasons ago.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

I have to say there are some seriously bent frivolousness going on here. Pull a brake while it ain't too late. I understand some of you may be infatuated with James and it's nothing unusual, we all have our sports heros, but calm down. It ain't all that. At all.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

DNKO said:


> I have to say there are some seriously bent frivolousness going on here. Pull a brake while it ain't too late. I understand some of you may be infatuated with James and it's nothing unusual, we all have our sports heros, but calm down. It ain't all that. At all.


Rather spend my time talking up something I enjoy, than tearing down something someone else does. Think of how much time you waste bemoaning Lebron James. Why don't you go talk about things you like? It's not healthy to fixate on things you don't like so much.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Holly **** man, you are blind with hate man!

I didn't say ONE BAD DAMN thing about NOBODY I just said you and others need to just chill a bit out on your overwhelming posts about James. Damn man...seriously...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Yet Z was an NBA all star center before LeBron entered the league. But yeah we know Z wouldn't be what he is with out LeBron James, wink wink.



And? Z is a good player. He's the Cavs second or third best player on any given night, and he's a huge part of what they do night in and night out. Without him Lebron's job gets a lot harder. What's to argue there?

Every Cavs fans knows what Z means to the team.
And every fan also knows Lebron means more.

But the team is at their best when they have both.

They'd be even better if it was KG instead of Z though.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

DNKO said:


> Holly **** man, you are blind with hate man!
> 
> I didn't say ONE BAD DAMN thing about NOBODY I just said you and others need to just chill a bit out on your overwhelming posts about James. Damn man...seriously...


Don't be so sensitive. Jeez. All I said was why waste your time talking about things you don't like, when you could spend that time talking about things you like? It's not healthy to spend so much energy on things you don't like. Why do you care about Lebron if you don't like his game or anything associated with him? It's not like there aren't other players in the league you can talk about.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Wow. Nothing more needs to be said. Lebron is quickly becoming more overrated than even Kobe was.


I'm of course referring to his PER which is at a historic level. As was the last person who said that. He's playing at a level this season that has not been played at before, if he can keep it up for the long haul.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> I'm of course referring to his PER which is at a historic level. As was the last person who said that. He's playing at a level this season that has not been played at before, if he can keep it up for the long haul.



Except he's not playing at a higher level than anyone has ever played before. He is having the largest deviation from his peers in history (thus far) aside from some of Wilt's seasons as measured by one particular metric (of many). Those are two different things, though I won't get into why they're different. Secondly, production is very important (I'm a big proponent of production; it's why I don't feel Lebron is as overrated in general as a guy like Kobe, though you're horrendously overrating him here), but it's not everything. I've mentioned some of the other things that are important as well (defense, game-raising, intangibles, game management) and you've disregarded them.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

The reason I believe that Lebron is better than bird is the reason I don't believe he's approaching Jordan's level yet(or indeed if he can).I saw Bird play,I saw him play at Indiana State.In college he was doing what Lebron has done and what the early Jordan did,pretty much the one man team surround by role players.He faced defenses that were focused on him.In the NBA Lebron has been facing great athletes and highly sophisticated defenses tailored to stop him,something that simply did not exist in Bird's era.


Frankly what Bird did is more comparable to the way kobe plays,he's a perimeter player,but one who is a much better jumpshooter than Kobe.However Kobe faces much more difficulty in the modern era where teams devote much effort to defense and they force him to take difficult shots...Actually they just bait kobe into taking bad shots,but I really don't think Bird would be able to put up dominating statistics against similar schemes.As a better passer than kobe I put Bird Firmly ahead of Kobe,but I simply don't believe Bird would be able to dominate the modern era like he did his era.I have no doubt that Jordan would pretty much be Jordan...He wasn't the goat early in his career.By the time he made himself into the goat teams were focused upon him,although the triple post offense makes this difficult once you have the correct pieces to execute it.


People can talk all they want about Bird's numbers,but those numbers predate the real modern era of nba defenses and he played on a team that was too talented for the opponents to more or ignore them in favor of simply guarding the rim.In no way do I think he could dominate this era,in fact I'm pretty sure that Bird would struggle against modern athletes...like lebron.If you had Larry Bird on his best day and Lebron James today in the same park and you had to choose sides only a fool would take bird.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Dude, no matter what you think, Bird would be a 25/9/6/48% player *at a minimum* in today's league along with being the best big game and clutch player in the league. I'm seriously being conservative with those numbers, by the way. I think it could be more like 27-28/10/7.

It was a nice, well-argued post, but I definitely disagree with the conclusion. Bird would dominate in any era. Dude was a straight baller. I would take prime Bird over current Lebron without a second's hesitation if I wanted to win games.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Lebron would have won 10 championships if he played in Bird's day for the Celtics. He would have shot over 70 percent from the field too, because he would have just dunked on everyone everytime down. 

The Celtics starting center back then was Parish who according to basketballreference.com, was 7 foot 230 pounds. Lebron would have dunked him into the basketball every time down the court. Can you imagine McHale trying to give a hard foul to Lebron at 210 pounds? He'd bounce right off of him.

Players back then were so much smaller, and not nearly as athletic. The Celtics could barely deal with Magic and Lebron's like a linebacker version of Magic who will dunk it on you.

For reference, Larry Bird was 6-9 220. Kevin Durant who everyone says looks malnourished is 6-9 225. Take how Durant looks and that's how Bird would look in today's NBA, minus any of the athleticism. He'd be abused defensively by opposing 3's. Can you imagine him trying to guard Melo on the block? It would be disgusting. Or Ron Artest guarding Bird?

And without Parish and Mchale, Bird would have to work with hard double teams designed to get the ball out of his hands.

He'd still be good in the NBA because of his understanding of the game, but he would be at a significant disadvantage athletically in today's game, so much so that I doubt he could win a title in today's NBA just because he would be such a liability defensively.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Lebron would have won 10 championships if he played in Bird's day for the Celtics. He would have shot over 70 percent from the field too, because he would have just dunked on everyone everytime down.
> 
> The Celtics starting center back then was Parish who according to basketballreference.com, was 7 foot 230 pounds. Lebron would have dunked him into the basketball every time down the court. Can you imagine McHale trying to give a hard foul to Lebron at 210 pounds? He'd bounce right off of him.
> 
> ...



You're simply crazy. Especially the beginning of this post. Bird was not 220, btw. More like 235-245 by his prime. I don't think he'd have trouble with Melo in the post considering he played PF for many years. 

Your entire post is ridiculous. I'm done here.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Lebron would have won 10 championships if he played in Bird's day for the Celtics. He would have shot over 70 percent from the field too, because he would have just dunked on everyone everytime down.
> 
> The Celtics starting center back then was Parish who according to basketballreference.com, was 7 foot 230 pounds. Lebron would have dunked him into the basketball every time down the court. Can you imagine McHale trying to give a hard foul to Lebron at 210 pounds? He'd bounce right off of him.
> 
> ...


This is a horrible analysis. You've lost your basketball posting privilege's. And for the Love of the game, put down the crack pipe.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> You're simply crazy. Especially the beginning of this post. Bird was not 220, btw. More like 235-245 by his prime. I don't think he'd have trouble with Melo in the post considering he played PF for many years.
> 
> Your entire post is ridiculous. I'm done here.


I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or stupid. Use the internet.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Chan said:


> I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or stupid. Use the internet.
> 
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html


Uhh, those list college weights. Thanks. Take a look at '84-'87 Bird and tell me that he weighs less than Durant.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Much better passer an rebounder? Uhh, no. Especially passer. Lebon is a slightly better rebounder (virtually not at all if you account for position and teammates; check their TRB%). He puts up more assists because of the way his offense is structured (as well as other reasons relating to the way the game is played now that I won't delve into). Jordan was putting up 5.5-6+ ast in an offense where he didn't have the ball in his hands much at all, and wasn't the primary distributor. He was able to get 5.5-6+ ast while having a teammate getting 6-7 ast as well. Also, flat out, Lebron is not a better passer than Jordan was, never mind "much better." He does possibly have better vision, though.
> 
> And statistically the only metric he's better in is PER (slightly), and there are 50 games left to be played. And then there's defensive impact. And game management. And intangibles. And clutchness and ability to raise one's game.
> 
> I have to laugh at anyone who thinks that Lebron this season is playing at a higher level than prime Jordan. It just betrays a shockingly naive and uninformed mentality. I wouldn't expect any better from a Laker fan, though. If Lebron is currently playing better than Jordan ever did, how much better is he than Kobe or Magic ever was? The mind boggles.





Jordan23Forever said:


> LMAO @ a Laker homer telling me that Lebron has been better this year than a player widely considered the GOAT in his prime. My a$$. What a joke. :lol:
> 
> LOL @ "my interpretation of leadership and defense." :lol:





Jordan23Forever said:


> I also have to laugh at anyone who suggests that Jordan was just a "slightly" better defender than Lebron. I mean, come on now. Some dude on another board actually had the gall to suggest that Lebron's current D = 90's Jordan defense ('90-'96). It's just ridiculous, really. Lebron has made great strides defensively, but he doesn't impact games on that end the way Jordan did. He may never. There are only 2-3 perimeter players in history who can say that they did.


No one here is surprised by anything you say about Jordan my friend. You lost credibility in MJ debates when you said you honestly believe there was a conspiracy among NBA officials to limit Jordan's FTs in the early 1990's. You honestly, seriously believe that tinfoil crap. So it's fruitless to argue about subjective data like clutchness, game management, or defense with you when your automatic response is going to universally be in favor of Jordan. We get it, you'd teabag him if you could. Good for you. 

Btw, yes, LeBron has a superior PER (and I already mentioned it has only been 30 games), as well as EFF or practically any aggregate stat, frankly. He has simply outplayed Jordan statistically. Deal with it kiddo.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23AJ said:


> This is a horrible analysis. You've lost your basketball posting privilege's. And for the Love of the game, put down the crack pipe.


It was a tongue in cheek response to Jordan23forever's wacky anyone who played in the 80s would dominate the game now, argument. Of course it's horrible analysis. But so is saying that Bird would come in and be the best player in the league no matter who he played for in 2009.

Light-en UP.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

EHL said:


> We get it, you'd teabag him if you could. Good for you.


:lol::lol::lol:

EHL = best poster on this board


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

LOL no way.

If Jordan23 poster is on one end of the spectrum, EHL is on the other. He believes the Bulls 72-10 was a product of a weak league and his proof was that 95-96 had -1- more 21-30 win team than 07-08. He hates on Jordan any chance he gets for the most ridiculous reasons.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Benedict_Boozer said:


> :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> EHL = best poster on this board


agreed:lol::lol:


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Diable said:


> The reason I believe that Lebron is better than bird is the reason I don't believe he's approaching Jordan's level yet(or indeed if he can).I saw Bird play,I saw him play at Indiana State.In college he was doing what Lebron has done and what the early Jordan did,pretty much the one man team surround by role players.He faced defenses that were focused on him.In the NBA Lebron has been facing great athletes and highly sophisticated defenses tailored to stop him,something that simply did not exist in Bird's era.
> 
> 
> Frankly what Bird did is more comparable to the way kobe plays,he's a perimeter player,but one who is a much better jumpshooter than Kobe.However Kobe faces much more difficulty in the modern era where teams devote much effort to defense and they force him to take difficult shots...Actually they just bait kobe into taking bad shots,but I really don't think Bird would be able to put up dominating statistics against similar schemes.As a better passer than kobe I put Bird Firmly ahead of Kobe,but I simply don't believe Bird would be able to dominate the modern era like he did his era.I have no doubt that Jordan would pretty much be Jordan...He wasn't the goat early in his career.By the time he made himself into the goat teams were focused upon him,although the triple post offense makes this difficult once you have the correct pieces to execute it.
> ...


You don't know what you are talking about. 
If a guy like Dirk thrives in this NBA in the offensive end, why wouldn't Larry, who could get a shot off against ANYBODY, EVERYTIME?
Do you know that Larry had a higher Rrate, than, say, a Pau Gasol, who is averaging 9 per?
I know players today are more athletic and all-around faster than in the 80's. But that wouldn't hurt a guy whose game DIDN'T rely on athleticism, but more on form. Maybe a guy like Nique wouldn't score close to 30ppg nowadays, due to his somewhat erratic jumper, and his not-so-great post play. But Larry Joe Bird? lol. You must be kidding me. He would tear this league apart.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Benedict_Boozer said:


> :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> EHL = best poster on this board


Yeah. sometimes we get too complacent regarding poster's opinions, no matter how ridiculous they are. It's like being numb, really, reading some kind of "Lebron is better than Jordan" crap and entertaing the thought as it had any merit. Like a mental vacation.

Then comes EHL, kicks butt and all of the sudden we are wide awake EHL rocks. He is like the Chuck Norris of BBF, round-kicking you in the face.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

LeBron is doing historical stuff (regardless of what stat you're looking at), and playing better than anyone else this season. He deserves his props, and people deserve to be made fun of if they don't think he is doing stuff Jordan did in his prime. But yes, it has only been 30 games. 

I'll be sure to be on suicide watch for J23F if LBJ does it for 82 + playoffs + title this year.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Well, I have to defend EHL's point on this one...basically, logically speaking, James IS actually doing historical stuff this season. Because, things he does, already are - a part of the history. So, in certain aspect, James is already, a historical player.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

EHL said:


> LeBron is doing historical stuff (regardless of what stat you're looking at), and playing better than anyone else this season. He deserves his props, and people deserve to be made fun of if they don't think he is doing stuff Jordan did in his prime. But yes, it has only been 30 games.
> 
> I'll be sure to be on suicide watch for J23F if LBJ does it for 82 + playoffs + title this year.


Yes, he's doing stuff at an all-time level by most metrics, but not at an outright HIGHER level than guys like Jordan/Wilt/KAJ aside from PER, which is what you said. That was my point. You said that he's been better than Jordan's ever been, which is a JOKE that could only come from the mouth of a Laker fan.

Hey, if Lebron manages to lead the league in PER/EFF/Win Shares/Player Wins, ends up with a 121+ ORtg, finishes top 4 in DPOY voting, makes the defensive first team, and establishes himself as the CONSENSUS best player (and most clutch player) in the league while finishing top 3 in MVP voting, then good for him. He'll only have to do it another 6-7 more consecutive seasons while winning titles/MVP's/Finals MVP's and then he'll be on Jordan's level.

In other words, he has a chance, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

EHL said:


> Btw, yes, LeBron has a superior PER (and I already mentioned it has only been 30 games), as well as EFF or practically any aggregate stat, frankly. He has simply outplayed Jordan statistically. Deal with it kiddo.


Err, no. He has a higher PER. His EFF isn't even top 50 all-time, and even his EFF divided by team pace (EFF per possession) isn't higher than Jordan's top 6 such seasons. Ditto for Birdies/Tendex. It remains to be seen where he'll finish in terms of Win Shares/Player Wins/Wins Produced. But yes, by PER he's having the best season ever since all stats were kept (1978).

So yeah...you're wrong.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

It's so funny on BBF.com

The Laker Brigade bum rushes any thread with the same handful of people. they think it makes a difference to anyone


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Yes, he's doing stuff at an all-time level by most metrics, but not at an outright HIGHER level than guys like Jordan/Wilt/KAJ aside from PER, which is what you said. That was my point. You said that he's been better than Jordan's ever been, which is a JOKE that could only come from the mouth of a Laker fan. Hey, if Lebron manages to lead the league in PER/EFF/Win Shares/Player Wins, ends up with a 121+ ORtg, finishes top 4 in DPOY voting, makes the defensive first team, and establishes himself as the CONSENSUS best player (and most clutch player) in the league while finishing top 3 in MVP voting, then good for him. He'll only have to do it another 6-7 more consecutive seasons while winning titles/MVP's/Finals MVP's and then he'll be on Jordan's level. In other words, he has a chance, but I'm not holding my breath.





Jordan23Forever said:


> Err, no. He has a higher PER. His EFF isn't even top 50 all-time, and even his EFF divided by team pace (EFF per possession) isn't higher than Jordan's top 6 such seasons. Ditto for Birdies/Tendex. It remains to be seen where he'll finish in terms of Win Shares/Player Wins/Wins Produced. But yes, by PER he's having the best season ever since all stats were kept (1978). So yeah...you're wrong.


Again, you're predictable and transparent, you're setting standards no one was arguing, since no one here said he was or had to be better than Jordan for 6-7 seasons, or that he has or will win a DPOY award (not that he has to, to be considered better than Jordan this season). Again, it hasn't even been half a season, and that fact was already conceded, we're talking in present tense (or really, since November), where by the best statistical measures (PER) he has been superior (at worst equal depending on how you weight eras). 

The rest is subjective and up for debate, and I’m sure very few people here are interested in your *interpretation* of LBJ’s D, game management, or clutchness (as if you can be all that “clutch” in just 30 regular season games) save for maybe the dropout Heat fan roaming somewhere here. And in terms of “consensus”, again, who argued that has to be the criteria, and more importantly what metrics are used to determine consensus? Or are you really saying that _media_ consensus isn’t arbitrary and often times out of touch with reality? And what percentage exactly is consensus? You accuse Laker fans of pimping Bryant with hard to define criteria like dribbling skills or iso creativity, yet come up with nebulous “consensus” as part of your rational (in which case LeBron is the consensus best player, according to knowledgeable basketball enthusiasts of course). 

I personally don't even expect him to maintain his 32+ PER, I fully expect him to come back down around 28-29 (still fantastic and very close to prime Jordan). I have personally seen his D, and it’s fantastic. Any claim that Jordan was a better defender has to be backed up with what exactly (FYI, MJ was a better defender in his prime, I’m just amused that *you* of all people define it with All D teams, which you have claimed in the past as suspect due to Bryant’s many selections :laugh: ). 

As for the rest of your post; LeBron is at 122 ORtg this season which is in a dead heat with prime Jordan (not that it's a particularly good stat in the first place). Secondly, you use win shares for one simple reason; MJ led it universally during his prime, and it the only reason you see fit to even mention it (no mention that it's, essentially, a useless metric). And finally, I'd like to see where you got their EFFs, I get conflicting numbers from two different sites. I get conflicting numbers with PER too actually, but it’s more consistent. EFF isn’t that strong a stat anyhow, since it doesn't adjust for minutes and over-rates rebounds, but the best out there is still PER and it still says LeBron has had a better season than prime MJ (single or aggregate seasons). I don’t expect LeBron to ever better MJ, but of course that was never the argument to begin with now was it?


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

EHL said:


> I have personally seen his D, and it’s fantastic. Any claim that Jordan was a better defender has to be backed up with what exactly (FYI, MJ was a better defender in his prime, I’m just amused that *you* of all people define it with All D teams, which you have claimed in the past as suspect due to Bryant’s many selections :laugh: ).


Backed up with what? I can easily describe why Jordan was a better defender, but ultimately it's subjective. Unfortunately, there are no adequate defensive stats, which is why defensive accolades (not just defensive first team selections, but finishes in DPOY voting, being considered the best defender in the league for a number of years etc.) are used.

Sure, I can say things like that Jordan (from '88-'93 at the very least) exerted more energy defensively more consistently; that he had better lateral movement to contain penetration; that he had far better hands and defensive instincts; that he was the best post-doubler in the league from the weak or strong side and would routinely take teams out of their preferred plays; that he was the best team/help defender in the league for many years; that he was the best fastbreak defender in history (broke up more 2-on-1 and 3-on-1 fastbreaks than anyone else); that he could change entire games with his defense; that he put up gaudy steal/block numbers for a perimeter player and did it without zone allowing him to roam; that his reflexes and reaction time were unmatched. I could say all that and more, but someone could just insist on the opposite, or say that I'm wrong.

I definitely think that the burden of proof when comparing a player who has received no recognition for his defensive prowes yet to a player considered to be a top 5 perimeter defender all-time at the very least would lie with the person making the claim that Lebron's defensive impact >= Jordan's. It's not anywhere cose from what I've seen despite the strides he's made. 



> As for the rest of your post; LeBron is at 122 ORtg this season which is in a dead heat with prime Jordan (not that it's a particularly good stat in the first place). Secondly, you use win shares for one simple reason; MJ led it universally during his prime, and it the only reason you see fit to even mention it (no mention that it's, essentially, a useless metric). And finally, I'd like to see where you got their EFFs, I get conflicting numbers from two different sites. I get conflicting numbers with PER too actually, but it’s more consistent. EFF isn’t that strong a stat anyhow, since it doesn't adjust for minutes and over-rates rebounds, but the best out there is still PER and it still says LeBron has had a better season than prime MJ (single or aggregate seasons).


I use Win Shares because it's a measure of impact and is, at base, an aggregate metric. I love when anti-Jordan nutjobs like you try to act like Jordan fans have to use certain metrics because he was on top in them -- news flash: there doesn't exist a single production or win-related metric that Jordan *isn't* at or near the top in, so accusing me of being selective is silly. You literaly *cannot find* a metric that Jordan did not lead the league in multiple times or lead (or nearly lead) all time in. So that's just foolishness on your part.

As for EFF, I got it from basketballreference.com for Jordan and NBA.com for Lebron this season. I then divided it by team pace (# of poss.). I also love how you call PER "the best out there" yet for many years you were one of the leaders of the anti-PER brigade because Kobe's always been average in terms of PER in an all-time sense.



> You accuse Laker fans of pimping Bryant with hard to define criteria like dribbling skills or iso creativity, yet come up with nebulous “consensus” as part of your rational (in which case LeBron is the consensus best player, according to knowledgeable basketball enthusiasts of course).


So Lebron enjoys the same consensus as the best player in the league right now as Jordan did from '89-'97? Completely false. I'd say that about 40-50% of people believe him to be the best in the league, with the other 50-60% split pretty evenly between Kobe and Wade. With Jordan from '89-'97 it was more like 85-95% depending on the year. There was never any question.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Uhh, those list college weights. Thanks. Take a look at '84-'87 Bird and tell me that he weighs less than Durant.


Your original argument was that Larry Bird was 6'9, 245. Lebron James was 6'9, 245. You're saying Larry Bird is as big as Lebron James.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Chan said:


> Your original argument was that Larry Bird was 6'9, 245. Lebron James was 6'9, 245. You're saying Larry Bird is as big as Lebron James.


You may have me confused with someone else. I said that Bird was likely 235-245 at his max. Could be 235, could be 245. It's not 220, that was my point. I didn't come in taking about his height or weight. I responded when someone said that he was thinner/weaker than Durant. Lebron is not 6'9" by the way (6'8.5" max), and he's way more than 245 (more like 260-265). Bird was more 6'10" than 6'9" (maybe 6'9.5") and maxed out at 235-245.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

No one serious (Hollinger, Rosenbaum) etc uses EFF to prove anything. It's just a weird composite: steals shoot not equal turnovers for example. Steals have not been shown to mean much in terms of judging defense. It also give equal weight to FTA and FGA which makes no sense whatsoever.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Efficiency doesn't factor in minutes played or possession so you can have examples like an Iverson who used to play around 15% more minutes than other players because he wouldn't let the coach rest him or someone playing nellyball who gets many more possessions per game than someone on a normally paced team.It really isn't a metric that gives you the context you need to make a meaningful comparison


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Diable said:


> Efficiency doesn't factor in minutes played or possession so you can have examples like an Iverson who used to play around 15% more minutes than other players because he wouldn't let the coach rest him or someone playing nellyball who gets many more possessions per game than someone on a normally paced team.It really isn't a metric that gives you the context you need to make a meaningful comparison


I know this, which is why I looked at EFF per possession rather than straight EFF. Here's what I'll do since I'm bored -- here are Jordan's top seasons in terms of EFF per possession accounting for minutes played along with Lebron's last 4 seasons. The way I did this is to divide each player's mpg by 48 minutes, and then multiply the quotient by the # of team possessions per game; this yields the approximate number of possessions a player was actually on the floor for. Then, you divide that by EFF to give "EFF per possession played":

*Jordan:*

1987: .400
1988: .437
1989: .455
1990: .440
1991: .444
1992: .408
1993: .417
1996: .404
1997: .380

*Lebron:*

2006: .370
2007: .331
2008: .402
2009: .433


As you can see, Lebron is having a fantastic year by this measure, and last year was excellent too. Btw, I don't really endorse EFF fully because of the reason another poster brought up re: weighting of stats, but it is another metric to look at.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

PER is a much better measure than the EFF you're using here. i don't know why you'd reference it. it has little meaning relative to a far better measure.

one thing to look at would be some of the components of PER:

ts%
jordan88 - .603
jordan91 - .605
lebron09 - .599

trb%
jordan88 - 7.5%
jordan91 - 9.5%
lebron09 - 10.9%

ast%
lebron09	35.1
jordan88	27
jordan91	25.2

STL%
lebron09	2.8
jordan88	3.9
jordan91	3.7

BLK%
lebron09	2.7
jordan88	2.4
jordan91	1.7

TOV%
lebron09	11.1
jordan88	9.6
jordan91	8.7

USG%
lebron09	32.8
jordan88	34.1
jordan91	32.9

i also do believe in some positional adjustment to trb%. high trb% from the 1 spot is, to me, more valuable than a high trb% from the 5 spot. 

what's also instructive about jordan's statistical history is that it's very arguable that his actual peak as a player and his statistical peak do not line up.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

A couple of BIG If's:
-IF the Cavs win the title (possible but maybe not probable)
-IF Lebron plays as well as he has (hard to do over a whole year)
-IF the Cavs win close to or more then 60 games (not guaranteed particularly with Z's injuries)

Then this will be one of the great individual seasons of all-time and at the same level of one of Jordan's prime years.
However, Jordan had a career worth of these seasons and not just one so Lebron will have an incredibly difficult road to match him.


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