# Rumor: Barbosa to Portland?



## Sonny-Canzano

> _One deal would see Barbosa become a member of the Trail Blazers, with Martell Webster, the thirteenth overall pick, and another piece coming back to Phoenix_


 -Arizona republic (via realgm)

:nada:

I hate this deal. Barbosa is not a PG and he cannot handle the ball. I'd be severely disappointed in Pritchard if he goes for Barbosa.


----------



## yuyuza1

ick. Barbosa isn't an ideal PG for us, but he would be an upgrade over Blake. My counter offer would be Jack, 13, and Jones (after he picks up his PO) for LB.


----------



## NateBishop3

I have faith in KP. If he makes this move it's because he has something else up his sleeve. Barbosa is not a pure point by any means.


----------



## BlazerFan22

I think it could work. Playing with a guy like Brandon Roy you really don't need a true PG becouse Roy has PG skills.


----------



## DonCorleone

Another factor to consider with any rumors involving Barbosa is that he has a hurt knee:

Barbosa pulls out of Brazil squad


----------



## audienorrisatomicdog

i dont like it at all. not marty. weve seen the ceiling on barbosa or as wild rice calls him barbarosa. but to give up on martell already is a bad idea. jack and jones and 13 maybe but not marty.


----------



## Mr. Chuck Taylor

I would do that trade in a second.


----------



## Mr. Chuck Taylor

assuming nothing better is on the table, that is.


----------



## Zybot

I am squarely on the fence on this one. We have too many young guys. How are Martell and Trout going to get touches when you add Oden and Rudy into the mix? Kenny Vance makes a good point this morning -- that this team struggled to get opportunities for easy baskets and Barbosa can help us in that area. Supposedly D'Antoni of the Knicks wants to bring Barbosa in too. So Barbosa definitely would fill a need. On the other hand maybe we should see how Martell and Trout play with the new guys and try to make a deal later in the season. Also, Barbosa doesn't really excite me as much as Martell -- but maybet that's just me. Of course, if Barbosa is damaged goods then you pass on it. If we do make the deal, I hope that KP can move up with 2nd rounders to have a shot to draft Brandon Rush.


----------



## craigehlo

Mr. Chuck Taylor said:


> assuming nothing better is on the table, that is.


I would do the deal too if it's the best thing on the table. Barbosa would force Nate to let this team run and he's a solid shooter.


----------



## World B. Free

I wouldn't cry if we did this deal.

Roy\Blake\Jack
Barbosa\Rudy
Outlaw\Jones?
LMA\Frye\McBob
Oden\Joel\Raef

Not bad IMO.


----------



## yuyuza1

Mr. Chuck Taylor said:


> assuming nothing better is on the table, that is.


assuming nothing is better, I'd rather not make a deal just to make a deal. this is horrible value for Webster.


----------



## Tortimer

I'm also on the fence with this trade. I'm leaning on not doing the trade and if we can't find a better fit just trade up and draft Westbrook or Augustin and wait until the trade deadline. I like Barbosa but not sure he is the PG we need for the long-term to play next to Roy. If they make this trade I wouldn't be upset and would wait and see how it would work though.

I'm was all for trying to bring in a veteran PG/SF with trading the 13th pick + Jack and even Webster/Outlaw or someone else but I think if it doesn't look like it really is going to help us I would now rather just try and trade up for the player we want. I would then wait until the trade deadline or next year when we have cap space.


----------



## Mr. Chuck Taylor

yuyuza1 said:


> assuming nothing is better, I'd rather not make a deal just to make a deal. this is horrible value for Webster.


I don't see it as making a deal just to make a deal. I think Barbosa is clearly more valuable than Webster, which is why we have to throw in our first round pick, not the other way around. I always like to get the best piece in a trade, and this year it is even more important to do so as we need to thin out our roster. My only concern is that Barbosa isn't a TRUE point guard, but with Roy around I think Nate could make it work.


----------



## craigehlo

yuyuza1 said:


> this is horrible value for Webster.


Martell hasn't shown the improvement in production and FG% that you would want to see with someone that has the "shooter" label. He got a huge bump in minutes, but didn't do much with it. He just doesn't have a lot of value on the market right now. 
Since Rudy is going to come in and eat into his minutes, he's a most likely a goner at some point this summer.


----------



## nikolokolus

Barbosa can shoot, drive, and has a decent handle ... It does seem like kind of an odd acquisition, since he doesn't really _directly_ address the PG need.

As for value, Martell + the 13th pick for Barbosa is actually probably spot on, Leandro is a former sixth man award winner, is very very quick, and would be amazing on outlet passes from Greg Oden in the open court. Everyone pissed and moaned last year about how down-tempo and plodding our offense was last year, now imagine being both up tempo and having good interior defense.

I approve of this deal.

ps. I hope TP had something to do with this deal materializing :biggrin:


----------



## yuyuza1

craigehlo said:


> Martell hasn't shown the improvement in production and FG% that you would want to see with someone that has the "shooter" label. He got a huge bump in minutes, but didn't do much with it. He just doesn't have a lot of value on the market right now.
> Since Rudy is going to come in and eat into his minutes, he's a most likely a goner at some point this summer.


He's the perfect SF for this team, so I don't see how minutes would be a factor. He fits this team better than Outlaw @ SF, and is probably going to be helped more than anyone on this team by Oden's presence. 

Barbosa is all flash. Dude is a product of D'Antoni's system. I can't believe so many of you guys can't see that. Look at how much he regressed in the playoffs and after the Shaq deal when they were forced to run a slower, half-court offense. He can't run PG at all (there is a reason Phoenix is looking for a backup PG so bad), and struggles to run a set offense. I suppose this flaw is mitigated by Roy, but it is still a major flaw. We can't rely on Roy to run our team every possession, and I'm not convinced that Brandon can be our PG in the end. 

One more thing, Barbosa is a horrible defender even with all his size and speed. He can never keep his man in front of him, and struggles against bigger/stronger guys.


----------



## Blazer Freak

I actually like it. While Barbosa isn't a pure point, that isn't exactly the type of player we need. A good shooter, perimeter defender and a good slasher with good PG size is what we need next to Roy and Barbosa has that. This just means that Roy assumes the PG duties on offense and Barbosa guards the 1 on D. 

Barbosa/Blake/Sergio/Kopenen?
Roy/??
Rudy/Travis/Jones
LaMarcus/Channing/McRob
Oden/Joel/Raef

I think that team would really open up the floor. Rudy and Barbosa are both good outside shooters. Roy does everything, and GO and LA are both great running bigmen, that team would wreck havoc on the break. Then we just need to look into fixing our bench around. Sergio could be traded, as Blake can play most of the backup PG minutes and backup 2.


----------



## Dan

I think that Barbosa is as much of the result of the Suns system as he is his own talents.


----------



## Blazer Freak

The deal would most likely be Webster + JJ + 13 for Barbosa. It works $$ wise.


----------



## yuyuza1

Dan said:


> I think that Barbosa is as much of the result of the Suns system as he is his own talents.


Sure. 

Barbosa > Webster, but Webster + 13 + Another piece (most likely Jack) > Barbosa.


----------



## Mr. Chuck Taylor

yuyuza1 said:


> Sure.
> 
> Barbosa > Webster, but Webster + 13 + Another piece (most likely Jack) > Barbosa.


I think it's pretty even.


----------



## chairman

So why does Phoenix want to trade Barbosa? Especially for someone who is not as good? Barbosa does not want to leave Phoenix and Nash is not getting any younger. Makes you wonder about the value Phoenix places on Webster or the lack of value they place on their own player.


----------



## SodaPopinski

Dan said:


> I think that Barbosa is as much of the result of the Suns system as he is his own talents.


Bingo.

-Pop


----------



## nikolokolus

chairman said:


> So why does Phoenix want to trade Barbosa? Especially for someone who is not as good? Barbosa does not want to leave Phoenix and Nash is not getting any younger. Makes you wonder about the value Phoenix places on Webster or the lack of value they place on their own player.


I think they want draft picks. The article in the arizona republic mentions that they are also in talks with NY for their sixth pick, but it sounds like NY isn't interested in dealing (maybe).

Personally I think this isn't a _perfect_ trade, but it's a very, very good trade and also clears up some room for Travis to slide over and start at small forward full time, or maybe even Jones if his wheel is all healed up.


----------



## HOWIE

chairman said:


> So why does Phoenix want to trade Barbosa? Especially for someone who is not as good? Barbosa does not want to leave Phoenix and Nash is not getting any younger. Makes you wonder about the value Phoenix places on Webster or the lack of value they place on their own player.


They have to start to rebuild, they have a new coach, there is also the rumored deal with the Raptors that has TJ Ford coming back. It looks like the Suns are going to try to rebuild on the fly. If TJ Ford is healthy and adding Webster, Jack, and the 13th pick it would be a nice jump start for them.

Portland is looking for up tempo players, Barbosa fits that mold and he was a player that Portland has tried to aqquire before. :whoknows:


----------



## hasoos

Intriguing. 

I have been on the make all the trades with Steve Kerr while he has a job bandwagon for a while now. If you notice, pretty much every move Steve Kerr has made over the last year has been a serious mistake. GM's like that don't come around to make deals with too often, we should make as many deals to strip that team of talent as we can for very little. Trading Kurt Thomas? That worked out pretty well when he came in for San Antonio and helped guard your bigs. How about Trading Marion for a washed up Shaq? That is a good idea isn't it? Well let's see that didn't work, lets fire the coach who has got you over 50 wins the last several seasons, but has happened to lose to some very good teams in the playoffs. 

The other thing I think you need to look at with Barbosa, he is so willing to come off the bench, and be instant offense while he is in. You have to like that. He also would increase team speed quite a bit. 

Lastly, I think the Blazer coaching staff and KP have the best idea of how good Martell will be. I choose to trust them, if they pull the trigger, I would bet with them, not against them.


----------



## B_&_B

NO WAY Barbosa is worth Webster and our 13th pick.

Another smokescreen... an attempt to drive up the price for Barbosa... and maybe to see how the public reacts.


----------



## Mr. Chuck Taylor

B_&_B said:


> NO WAY Barbosa is worth Webster and our 13th pick.


I agree...he's worth more. The 13th pick really isn't that great. Right now nbadraft.net, draftexpress.com, and Chad Ford have us selecting DeAndre Jordan, JaVale McGee, and Brandon Rush, respectively. Ford even has written an article ranking the tiers of talent in the draft, and unfortunately #13 is the start of the fourth tier. Do you really think Webster and Jordan, McGee, or Rush would be more valuable than Barbosa, a 6th man award winner? I sure don't.


----------



## hasoos

I am very surprised about how folks are reacting to this. IMO best case scenario is Martell Webster turns out as good as Barbosa. The dude is shooting 47% from the field, and almost 40% from the 3 point line, he is fast, and is pretty young overall, probably just about to hit his prime.


----------



## alext42083

Considering Webster's value last summer was a throw-in for the Zach to NY trade before Penn decided it was better to send Freddie and Dickau to get a trade exception, sort of shows Martell's value a little bit.

I wouldn't be against the deal. Barbosa is lightning quick, can hit the 3, is tall enough to play PG and is a good player overall. He doesn't dominate the ball either, and would allow him and Roy to split time at PG and bring the ball up.
Face it, if the guy coming in is not named Chris Paul or Deron Williams, no one will be happy. We need to cut down this roster sometime.
Martell, Jack and 13 is not going to bring in the elite of the elite PGs.

It'd open up time for Jones at SF, Outlaw, Rudy too. That's three guys. Webster is not untouchable by any means..


----------



## Balian

Barbosa can't run a team. Nash runs the Suns and Barbosa is a byproduct of that system. Webster's game is still developing.


----------



## Tortimer

Mr. Chuck Taylor said:


> I agree...he's worth more. The 13th pick really isn't that great. Right now nbadraft.net, draftexpress.com, and Chad Ford have us selecting DeAndre Jordan, JaVale McGee, and Brandon Rush, respectively. Ford even has written an article ranking the tiers of talent in the draft, and unfortunately #13 is the start of the fourth tier. Do you really think Webster and Jordan, McGee, or Rush would be more valuable than Barbosa, a 6th man award winner? I sure don't.


The problem is we have to include more then just Jack because the salaries don't work. I'm not sure what but giving up the 13th + Webster + (Jack + another player) or Webster + Frye is to much IMO. I'm just not sure Barbosa is the PG we want next to Roy long term. You can go to the Pho board on many of the forums and they are going crazy hoping this trade goes through. I really haven't seen many trades happen when a rumor happens this long before the draft and I'm hoping and praying it is just a smokescreen from Pho trying to drive up Barbosa's value.


----------



## Blazer Freak

Yeah, PHX is looking to do this because they need to get younger overall. And a 3 for 1 improves their bench. I forgot who said it, but someone on PHX was quoted as "You can't expect G.Hill to come in and play 40mpg for us next year.". They need youth, and if they pull this deal with us, and the rumored TJ and 17 for Diaw they would get Tj,Webster,Jack,13,17 for Barbosa and Diaw. Add that with the 15 they already have, and they could easily move up to get Alexander if they wanted with the 13/15/17 picks they would have.


----------



## nikolokolus

The only reason I think this trade is a no-go is that it's appearing on the radar too soon before the draft. And if it leaked out this soon, then I'm more inclined to think that it's just Phoenix putting out feelers to see if there are other offers for Barbosa from other teams that are richer than what they are demanding from Portland and/or New York.

I give the odds of this actually occuring at right around 1%


----------



## hasoos

Why is everybody assuming Barbosa will start next to Roy at PG? Did anybody ever stop to think for a second that he has been a 6th man his whole career, and might be pursued for that role here? Think about it folks. One of the hugest Blazer problems over the last season(s) has been getting scoring out of the bench unit. He has never had a problem coming off the bench, in fact, he seems to relish it. He is the type of player we can inject into the bench unit, he won't complain, and he will make the bench scoring much more stable than it has been in the past.


----------



## Blazer Freak

Balian said:


> Barbosa can't run a team. Nash runs the Suns and Barbosa is a byproduct of that system. Webster's game is still developing.


He wouldn't be coming here to run the team. That's Roy's job. They are looking for someone who has good PG size, can defend, and can hit the outside shot. Sounds like Barbosa to me..


----------



## Balian

LOL. According to sources, Phoenix wants Webster + #13 + another player for Barbosa. 

_"A Portland deal would have sent 21-year-old swingman *Martell Webster*, next week's No. 13 pick and another piece for Barbosa."_

No thanks.


----------



## nikolokolus

Blazer Freak said:


> He wouldn't be coming here to run the team. That's Roy's job. They are looking for someone who has good PG size, *can defend*, and can hit the outside shot. Sounds like Barbosa to me..


Despite his amazing speed, incredible wingspan, and quickness, Barbosa is not a very good defender ... then again that could have been partially because he has gotten overpowered by bigger shooting guards ad D'Antoni never really demanded any D out of his players.

If this deal goes down I have no problem with a backcourt that looks like this:
Blake?/Barbosa/Sergio
Roy/Fernandez/Barbosa

and honestly I think Sergio's shelf life is rapidly approaching the "throw out" date and I somehow doubt KP is done shaking up the PG position.


----------



## Blazer Freak

Also here is some Barbosa info from ESPN:

<object id="W45881d714d8ff0fd485bd8a663279af5" width="404" height="318" quality="best" data="http://widgets.nba.com/o/45881d714d8ff0fd/485bd8a663279af5/45881d714d8ff0fd/df5827c2/-DNW/1/player_code/leandro_barbosa/-PUR/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nba.com%2Fplayerfile%2Fleandro_barbosa%2Findex.html/" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"><param name="scalemode" value="showAll"/><param name="menu" value="false"/><param name="wmode" value="transparent" /><param name="allowNetworking" value="all" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /> </object>



> Scouting report: Barbosa's speed in transition is amazing. After a made basket he'll streak up the left sideline, take a lead pass from Steve Nash, and after one dribble be laying the ball in three seconds after the other team scored. Though right-handed, he does most of his damage from the left. He loves to drive in from that side and then lay the ball up with his right hand; I'm not sure I've ever seen him take a lefty layup even though that's his preferred driving side.
> 
> Barbosa has an odd shooting motion, but when his feet are set he's extremely accurate. However, because he shoots with the ball way out in front of his body, he can get the shot off only when it's a catch-and-shoot situation or when the defense has completely fallen asleep. He'll almost never shoot a jumper off the dribble, preferring to drive all the way to the rim.
> 
> Barbosa's defense isn't nearly as far along as his offense. Although he has great quickness and anticipation, his on-ball play and halfcourt help defense leave quite a bit to be desired. He frequently bolts early to try to get layups the other way, and his lack of size makes him vulnerable to post-ups by opposing shooting guards.


----------



## Bwatcher

Hasoos, I think you are right on. This is a trade of Martell -- stand up shooter versus quickness, fast break scoring. Considering that one of Rudy's strengths is shooting, I think we gain from this exchange by getting some qualities we don't currently have. 

Barbosa to me, would be a clear upgrade to the offense. However, I do worry a bit about his defense. But, since most of his time would be with the second unit, I think it probably does work OK.


----------



## It's_GO_Time

Anyone know Barbosa's salary (years and amount)?


----------



## Kmurph

yuyuza1 said:


> He's the perfect SF for this team, so I don't see how minutes would be a factor. He fits this team better than Outlaw @ SF, and is probably going to be helped more than anyone on this team by Oden's presence.
> 
> Barbosa is all flash. Dude is a product of D'Antoni's system. I can't believe so many of you guys can't see that. Look at how much he regressed in the playoffs and after the Shaq deal when they were forced to run a slower, half-court offense. He can't run PG at all (there is a reason Phoenix is looking for a backup PG so bad), and struggles to run a set offense. I suppose this flaw is mitigated by Roy, but it is still a major flaw. We can't rely on Roy to run our team every possession, and I'm not convinced that Brandon can be our PG in the end.
> 
> One more thing, Barbosa is a horrible defender even with all his size and speed. He can never keep his man in front of him, and struggles against bigger/stronger guys.


THANK YOU

You are 100% correct...This is not a good deal for POR at all...If this trade goes through...it would be the 1st mistake Pritchard
has made...

and Webster IS a better fit with Oden and the offense than Outlaw is....Who would you rather see shooting that three pointer off of a post double team other than Webster....Outlaw? Barbosa? :lol:


----------



## STOMP

chairman said:


> So why does Phoenix want to trade Barbosa? Especially for someone who is not as good? Barbosa does not want to leave Phoenix and Nash is not getting any younger. Makes you wonder about the value Phoenix places on Webster or the lack of value they place on their own player.


grant hill isn't getting any younger. When he went down at the end of last season, they had no one at his size who could stick with wings.

STOMP


----------



## B_&_B

nikolokolus said:


> The only reason I think this trade is a no-go is that it's appearing on the radar too soon before the draft. And if it leaked out this soon, then I'm more inclined to think that it's just Phoenix putting out feelers to see if there are other offers for Barbosa from other teams that are richer than what they are demanding from Portland and/or New York.
> 
> I give the odds of this actually occuring at right around 1%


I agree. It's just an attempt for PHX to boost Barbosa's trade value.


----------



## hasoos

Kmurph said:


> THANK YOU
> 
> You are 100% correct...This is not a good deal for POR at all...If this trade goes through...it would be the 1st mistake Pritchard
> has made...
> 
> and Webster IS a better fit with Oden and the offense than Outlaw is....Would you rather see shooting that three pointer off of a double team other than Webster....Outlaw? Barbosa? :lol:


Barbosa shoots a higher clip from the floor than both those guys.


----------



## STOMP

Kmurph said:


> and Webster IS a better fit with Oden and the offense than Outlaw is....Would you rather see shooting that three pointer off of a double team other than Webster....Outlaw? Barbosa? :lol:


since both Barbosa and Travis shot a higher 3 Point % then Martell last year, I'm not sure why you're laughing.

STOMP


----------



## Blazer Freak

STOMP said:


> since both Barbosa and Travis shot a higher 3 Point % then Martell last year, I'm not sure why you're laughing.
> 
> STOMP


Haha that's what I was thinking.


----------



## nikolokolus

STOMP said:


> since both Barbosa and Travis shot a higher 3 Point % then Martell last year, I'm not sure why you're laughing.
> 
> STOMP


Exactly, Martell is nowhere near the sharp-shooter people paint him to be.

Barbosa may not "solve" our PG problem, but it would allow us the opportunity to clear the logjam we're going to have at the 3 and if Jack is thrown in you're basically getting rid of a guy who would be getting at best 5-10 minutes next year with the arrival of Rudy.

People keep harping on the fact that we're not a running team and that Barbosa would force Nate to run ... well here's a fun little factoid, Nate's Seattle teams were much more up tempo and the slow pace stuff since his arrival in Portland probably has more to do with Nate adapting his coaching style to his available personnel rather than vice versa. I think Barbosa, Travis, Jones, Blake, and to a certain extent Roy, being on the court with LMA and Greg gives you the ability to really spread the floor and gives the team another slasher taking some of the burden off of Brandon.


----------



## mook

nikolokolus said:


> Barbosa can shoot, drive, and has a decent handle ... It does seem like kind of an odd acquisition, since he doesn't really _directly_ address the PG need.


actually, I think he does perfectly. both Rudy and Roy are widely regarded for their court vision and their ability to set people up in the half court. however, neither of them are guys you want to really task with bringing the ball up court all the time. (Rudy doesn't have great handles, Roy's energy is better spent elsewhere.) 

Derek Fisher made a career out of bringing the ball up court, handing it to Kobe or dropping it to Shaq, and camping on the three point line. think of Barbosa's offensive role as Derek Fisher on Red Bull. 

besides, how much "setting up" does he really have to do? throw it into the post and let Oden/Aldridge work. give it to Roy and let him drive. frankly, I don't think we really need a PG who dominates the ball and creates for others. 

we want someone who can push the tempo, hand the ball off to others to run the half court offense, and hit three pointers at an amazingly good rate. that's Barbosa's entire game.


----------



## croco

STOMP said:


> since both Barbosa and Travis shot a higher 3 Point % then Martell last year, I'm not sure why you're laughing.
> 
> STOMP


Webster has hit thrice as many threes as Outlaw while shooting almost the same percentage (0,8 % do not really matter), it's a legit claim to say that he is a better shooter.


----------



## wizmentor

I'd rather go something like #13 + Webster for Eric Gordon or Russell Westbrook.


----------



## Blazer Freak

mook said:


> actually, I think he does perfectly. both Rudy and Roy are widely regarded for their court vision and their ability to set people up in the half court. however, neither of them are guys you want to really task with bringing the ball up court all the time. (Rudy doesn't have great handles, Roy's energy is better spent elsewhere.)
> 
> Derek Fisher made a career out of bringing the ball up court, handing it to Kobe, and camping on the three point line. think of Barbosa's offensive role as Derek Fisher on Red Bull.
> 
> besides, how much "setting up" does he really have to do? throw it into the post and let Oden/Aldridge work. give it to Roy and let him drive. frankly, I don't think we really need a PG who dominates the ball and creates for others.
> 
> we want someone who can push the tempo, hand the ball off to others to run the half court offense, and hit three pointers at an amazingly good rate. that's Barbosa's entire game.


Finally! Someone I can agree with. Not only does the deal get Jack off our hands, Barbosa I think fits the role we want our PG to play perfectly. Only other person I would want to see at PG would be DJ or Westbrook, and as the draft gets closer I don't know how possible that is.


----------



## yuyuza1

croco said:


> since both Barbosa and Travis shot a higher 3 Point % then Martell last year, I'm not sure why you're laughing.
> 
> STOMP
> 
> 
> 
> Webster has hit thrice as many threes as Outlaw while shooting almost the same percentage (0,8 % do not really matter), it's a legit claim to say that he is a better shooter.
Click to expand...

Yep. TS% for Webster (54.8%) and Outlaw (49.9%) can support this claim as well.


----------



## mook

Dan said:


> I think that Barbosa is as much of the result of the Suns system as he is his own talents.


I think that's true, but just not the way you think. Barbosa is a great three point shooter on any team. Barbosa is lightening fast on any team. 

he is, however, the defensive product of the Mike D'Antoni system. how many great defenders has Mike D'Antoni ever developed? 

Shawn Marion was a great defender before D'Antoni arrived in Phoenix. Jones was already good. Ditto with Raja Bell. 

if you want to look at the result of D'Antoni's defensive "system," look at Amare Stoudemire and Barbosa. he's had them both since they entered the NBA. 

now look at the guys Nate McMillan has brought along. Zach Randolph went from utterly hopeless to tolerable. McMillan made Telfair look good enough to make the trade for the #6 pick possible. Frye is playing far better defensive in Portland than he ever did in New York. the list goes on. 

McMillan, for all his faults, gets the best defensive possible out of the guys he's given. imagine him licking his chops to teach a fellow combo guard (Barbosa) with far more talent than he ever had how to play defense the right way. 

I don't think it's a lock that Barbosa becomes a defensive stopper under Nate. but after watching the one-year turnaround of the former matadors Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, I think a new environment could make a world of difference in Barbosa's defense.


----------



## craigehlo

croco said:


> Webster has hit thrice as many threes as Outlaw while shooting almost the same percentage (0,8 % do not really matter), it's a legit claim to say that he is a better shooter.


I think what's missing from the conversation is that Webster's main talent is supposed to be his long range shooting. It's actually nothing special when you drill into the numbers. I think we could grab a SF at the #13 like Rush that would already be a better, more complete SF than Webster could ever hope to become.


----------



## noknobs

I like Barbosa but I honestly think this upcoming year is when Webster is really going to start living up to his potential, and I've felt that way the last 12 months. The guy has worked his butt off the last few years and I think he'll be much more consistant offensively. 

I don't think we really need to trade anyone right now, not until we see how they all play together. If a great deal that addressed our specific needs came along, maybe, but this isn't it, IMO. I know we're all bored in the offseason, but Barbosa is not the answer.


----------



## Blazer Freak

craigehlo said:


> I think what's missing from the conversation is that Webster's main talent is supposed to be his long range shooting. It's actually nothing special when you drill into the numbers. I think we could grab a SF at the #13 like Rush that would already be a better, more complete SF than Webster could ever hope to become.


But at the same time we forget about Rudy. We don't need to add a SG/SF in this draft, as we already need to get rid of atleast Webster. Rudy/Roy will man the 2/3 with Roy most likely guarding the 3's. I believe Rudy will have a starting gig before the season starts, and it would work perfectly if we got Barbosa.

Barbosa/Rudy/Roy/Aldridge/Oden

The 1/2/3 can all hit the 3 if left open, the whole lineup can run the court, and Barbosa/Rudy can really get in the passing lanes. IMO, that lineup sounds like what people have been saying is the way we wanna play.


----------



## alext42083

Kmurph said:


> and Webster IS a better fit with Oden and the offense than Outlaw is....Who would you rather see shooting that three pointer off of a post double team other than Webster....Outlaw? Barbosa? :lol:


Yeah, I would actually rather see Barbosa shooting the open 3 than Webster. Barbosa just seems to have a knack of hitting that momentum-changing 3, while with Webster, you never know.


----------



## craigehlo

noknobs said:


> I like Barbosa but I honestly think this upcoming year is when Webster is really going to start living up to his potential, and I've felt that way the last 12 months. The guy has worked his butt off the last few years and I think he'll be much more consistent offensively.


Reality check: He's a bust at the #6 pick from the Nash era. 

One of the telling numbers are his FT attempts. He only went from 1.6 attempted the year before to 2.2 this past season despite a huge increase in minutes. He hasn't been aggressive and displayed an inability to slash to the rim. There's much better options at the SF spot on the trade market and draft that can play a more well rounded and intelligent game.


----------



## noknobs

craigehlo said:


> Reality check: He's a bust at the #6 pick from the Nash era.
> 
> One of the telling numbers are his FT attempts. He only went from 1.6 attempted the year before to 2.2 this past season despite a huge increase in minutes. He hasn't been aggressive and displayed an inability to slash to the rim. There's much better options at the SF spot on the trade market and draft that can play a more well rounded and intelligent game.




Outlaw was a bust till last year too, and I think Webster's ahead of him on the learning curve. I'd personally just wait a year. He's not like Sergio who's regressed. I think Webster's improved in all areas, including defense and his ability to go to the rim. He's not a bust.


----------



## mook

alext42083 said:


> Yeah, I would actually rather see Barbosa shooting the open 3 than Webster. Barbosa just seems to have a knack of hitting that momentum-changing 3, while with Webster, you never know.


to be fair, Barbosa has stunk from three point range the past two years in the playoffs. we're only talking 16 total games, though, so it may just be an aberration. 

I do think Kmurph's comment is kind of strange, though, given that Barbosa is a career 40% three point shooter (Webster is 37%). Barbosa is already shooting the three at Martell's projected upside. 

then you factor in that shooting threes is Martell's entire game, while Barbosa is a huge threat to drive it to the rim. and that Barbosa shot 82% FT to Webster's 73% last year. I don't see how you can't consider Barbosa a huge offensive upgrade.


----------



## alext42083

Blazer Freak said:


> Barbosa/Rudy/Roy/Aldridge/Oden
> 
> The 1/2/3 can all hit the 3 if left open, the whole lineup can run the court, and Barbosa/Rudy can really get in the passing lanes. IMO, that lineup sounds like what people have been saying is the way we wanna play.


What a sweet lineup that would be if the players pan out like we think they would. Just a dangerous offensive team, don't know about the defense, but it would make for some entertaining basketball.


----------



## ThatBlazerGuy

I dont like this deal, and think its overpaying for Barbosa a bit. How about..

Outlaw+Jack+#13+#33 for Barbosa+#15. Draft a replacement SF at 15 such as Greene or Batum.

Either way, I think Barbosa would be a tereffic fit next to Roy. He is kinda like Tony Parker in that way. There are some striking similarities to the Spurs backcourt of Parker/Ginobli in Barbosa/Roy.


----------



## nikolokolus

...


----------



## Ballscientist

Blazers with Barbosa = 50 wins


----------



## mook

nikolokolus said:


> Ok you lost me, something is not adding up, or I'm misreading your post. Do you mean stunk in the playoffs?


yep. I just corrected it. sorry about that.


----------



## mook

Ballscientist said:


> Blazers with Barbosa = 50 wins


call me crazy, but Blazers without Barbosa also = 50 wins. pretty easy to see how adding Oden and Fernandez AND our youngsters naturally improving over time adds 9 wins to our total from this season. 

with Barbosa I think we could be around 55 wins.


----------



## noknobs

Blazer Freak said:


> Barbosa/Rudy/Roy/Aldridge/Oden
> 
> The 1/2/3 can all hit the 3 if left open, the whole lineup can run the court, and Barbosa/Rudy can really get in the passing lanes. IMO, that lineup sounds like what people have been saying is the way we wanna play.



But why do we want to play like Phoenix or Goldenstate? The teams that are winning championships play great defense, can excel in the half-court offense, and just pick and choose when and where to run. We can do all that without Barbosa. 

If we bring in a guard he needs to play defense and distribute the ball well (Yes, he'll be asked to do more than simply speed up the tempo and throw lobs to Oden and Aldridge - Sergio is exhibit A). The argument that Barbosa doesn't play defense because of Phoenix's system is pure speculation and I'm not throwing away Webster and the #13 on that.


----------



## 2k

I love both guys so I'm on the fence. I wish we could have both of them because if you ask me Barbosa is the perfect fit at PG and Webster is at least a great fit in the rotation.


----------



## alext42083

mook said:


> to be fair, Barbosa has stunk from three point range the past two years in the playoffs. we're only talking 16 total games, though, so it may just be an aberration.
> 
> I do think Kmurph's comment is kind of strange, though, given that Barbosa is a career 40% three point shooter (Webster is 37%). Barbosa is already shooting the three at Martell's projected upside.
> 
> then you factor in that shooting threes is Martell's entire game, while Barbosa is a huge threat to drive it to the rim. and that Barbosa shot 82% FT to Webster's 73% last year. I don't see how you can't consider Barbosa a huge offensive upgrade.


Not sure about two years ago.. probably San Antonio's D helped that cause and wouldn't let anyone score.
Last season, I think he just burned out at the end after playing throughout the summer for Brazil in the Tournament of Americas. Barbosa is not playing for them this summer so it might be good for him to re-charge.
I think this could be another case of fans overvaluing their own players in a Zach-to-NY-for-Frye kind of way, and seeing that it might end up being a good deal in the end. Who knows.


----------



## MrJayremmie

I don't think Barbosa is our man, though he is on my list of most wanted PGs.

His lack of defense and his score first PG mentality just isn't what i'd go for, for our team.


----------



## alext42083

noknobs said:


> But why do we want to play like Phoenix or Goldenstate? The teams that are winning championships play great defense, can excel in the half-court offense, and just pick and choose when and where to run. We can do all that without Barbosa.


The thing we have that those teams don't is Greg Oden, LaMarcus Aldridge and to a certain extent, Joel Przybilla, guarding the rim. Roy's a terrific defender too.
We still need to add a defensive SF and a tough, physical backup PF though.
I don't think we'd play like Phoenix or Golden State, but we would be able to run more than we did. Weren't we nearly last in fast-break scoring last year?


----------



## Balian

Barbosa *PG*: *2.6 AST per game*.

I will take my chance with the combo of Roy/Rudy any day of the week. Rudy is a better shooter and passer than Barbosa.

BTW, his assist to turnover ratio is in the same neighborhood as Jack's.


----------



## BlazerFan22

Mr. Chuck Taylor said:


> I don't see it as making a deal just to make a deal. I think Barbosa is clearly more valuable than Webster, which is why we have to throw in our first round pick, not the other way around. I always like to get the best piece in a trade, and this year it is even more important to do so as we need to thin out our roster. My only concern is that Barbosa isn't a TRUE point guard, but with Roy around I think Nate could make it work.


True PG this true PG that. In todays NBA you don't need a true PG if you have a guy with PG skills! Look and Boston is Rondo a true PG? Dark Fisher dosen't bring the ball up the floor for the Lakers it's Odom.


----------



## mook

noknobs said:


> But why do we want to play like Phoenix or Goldenstate? The teams that are winning championships play great defense, can excel in the half-court offense, and just pick and choose when and where to run. We can do all that without Barbosa.


who is saying we want to be Golden State? I just don't want to be one of the very worst fast break teams in the league anymore. we can add one speedster and not be Golden State. 



> If we bring in a guard he needs to play defense and distribute the ball well (Yes, he'll be asked to do more than simply speed up the tempo and throw lobs to Oden and Aldridge - Sergio is exhibit A).


Sergio didn't get minutes because he couldn't hit a damned jump shot. he was bad on defense and useless on offense, because teams could sag off him. nobody sags of Barbosa. 



> The argument that Barbosa doesn't play defense because of Phoenix's system is pure speculation and I'm not throwing away Webster and the #13 on that.


So it's "*speculation*" that Barbosa can improve defensively under a coach with a proven track record of improving players' defense. But it's a *certainty *that Martell will amount to more than a spot up shooter and it's a *certainty *that the #13 pick will still be in the league in three years. 

This is all speculation.


----------



## GOD

I like this trade and would love to see it go down, but Barbosa is BYC which makes actual trades hard. But if we could figure out a Barbosa for Web, jack and #13, I say do it.


----------



## Kmurph

STOMP said:


> since both Barbosa and Travis shot a higher 3 Point % then Martell last year, I'm not sure why you're laughing.
> 
> STOMP


Since that won't be the case when Barbosa is trying to make 3 pointers off double teams in POR offense...He is a great offensive player, but not in the 1/2 court and I don't think he can play PG at all...

I'd love to know how many of Barbosa's 3pt FG were in transistion...and how many were in a 1/2 court offense...I think that the playoffs this year against SA revealed a lot of Barbosa's weaknesses...and those wouldn't dissapear if he were in the playoffs with POR either...

Yeah Outlaw shot a better percentage (40%) in 100 attempts, 3 times as many as he has in any previous year, and he shot 1.2% better...

Webster shot 38.8% in 317 attemps...Now what percentage do you think is more indicitive of the players' _true_ 3pt shooting percentage? 

But I would maintain that just watching the two play in games reveal the fact that Webster is and will be a far better 3pt shooter than Outlaw will be....


----------



## noknobs

alext42083 said:


> The thing we have that those teams don't is Greg Oden, LaMarcus Aldridge and to a certain extent, Joel Przybilla, guarding the rim. Roy's a terrific defender too.
> We still need to add a defensive SF and a tough, physical backup PF though.
> I don't think we'd play like Phoenix or Golden State, but we would be able to run more than we did. Weren't we nearly last in fast-break scoring last year?



If not dead last. But I think we'll improve with Rudy coming in. Also, I think fast-breaks start on defense, so having Oden back there blocking shots will really open up opportunities to run, especially for Aldridge. Barbosa would obviously help as well, but I'd just personally rather have a PG who helped more on defense and passing.

Not to mention, I think our lack of fast-break opportunities is in part due to Nate's coaching style, and that won't change drastically regardless of if we got Barbosa or not. He preaches defense and toughness over fast offense, and I'm okay with that.


----------



## hasoos

I disagree about the fast breaking. A lot of fast breaking is about speed, experience, and being comfortable taking shots in transition. Let's face it, we have a lot of young players who are unsure of themselves on the fast break. They are getting better, but they still hesitate a lot, when they could get easy buckets. Half the battle is having the instinct of when to bust out for an easy transition bucket. Barbosa has that killer instinct. He also is not afraid to shoot the ball, like many of the young players can do right now. You get him the ball, he makes something happen. Not getting in a small rut, and getting the ball, and looking around for somebody else to throw it to when you are wide open.


----------



## Blazer Freak

noknobs said:


> But why do we want to play like Phoenix or Goldenstate? The teams that are winning championships play great defense, can excel in the half-court offense, and just pick and choose when and where to run. We can do all that without Barbosa.
> 
> If we bring in a guard he needs to play defense and distribute the ball well (Yes, he'll be asked to do more than simply speed up the tempo and throw lobs to Oden and Aldridge - Sergio is exhibit A). The argument that Barbosa doesn't play defense because of Phoenix's system is pure speculation and I'm not throwing away Webster and the #13 on that.


I'm not saying we need to play like them. I am just going off what Channing and the Mike's were saying last night on Courtside. The Blazers really wanna play like they started to at the end of last year, faster paced and pushing the ball up a little more. 

With Barbosa and Rudy guarding the passing lanes and Roy playing good D on the teams best perimeter player in crunch time, and then mix in Greg and LA, I think we will be a much better team defensively than PHX or GS anyways.


----------



## noknobs

mook said:


> who is saying we want to be Golden State? I just don't want to be one of the very worst fast break teams in the league anymore. we can add one speedster and not be Golden State.


And we already are - Rudy.




mook said:


> So it's "*speculation*" that Barbosa can improve defensively under a coach with a proven track record of improving players' defense. But it's a *certainty *that Martell will amount to more than a spot up shooter and it's a *certainty *that the #13 pick will still be in the league in three years.
> 
> This is all speculation.


Most of this is speculation, which is exactly why we shouldn't start trading all of our young pieces prematurely, especially for assets we don't need. As KP has said numerous times, this next year is still going to be an evaluation process because we don't know how all the pieces will fit. 

That said, it's not speculation that Martell has improved every year. It's not speculation that Barbosa is a shoot-first, pass-second 'PG' who has sub-par defense. Of course he can improve that over time, but a scoring PG is just not what we need. I felt this way about Gilbert, about B. Davis, and now about Barbosa. This team is in a GREAT position, we can simply do better.


----------



## nikolokolus

noknobs said:


> If not dead last. But I think we'll improve with Rudy coming in. Also, I think fast-breaks start on defense, so having Oden back there blocking shots will really open up opportunities to run, especially for Aldridge. Barbosa would obviously help as well, but I'd just personally rather have a PG who helped more on defense and passing.
> *
> Not to mention, I think our lack of fast-break opportunities is in part due to Nate's coaching style, and that won't change drastically regardless of if we got Barbosa or not. He preaches defense and toughness over fast offense, and I'm okay with that.*


Nate's system is never going to be like D'Antoni's or Nellie ball in Golden State, but I'm guessing you never watched many of Nate's Seattle teams earlier in the decade -- Nate likes up tempo, but in Portland he's never really had the personnel to get it done. You need defensive stops (blocks or rebounds) with good outlet passes to run the break and if Greg turns out to be as good as we hope I think you'll see this team running quite a bit more, and a guy like Barbosa would give this team a lot more easy buckets. The question remains how things would look in the playoffs when things usually slow down into a more half-court oriented game, but Barbosa's ability to hit the outside shot as well as finish at the rim would give Brandon more open lanes, would help spread the floor, and could create some really intriguing matchups.


----------



## Blazer Freak

noknobs said:


> And we already are - Rudy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of this is speculation, which is exactly why we shouldn't start trading all of our young pieces prematurely, especially for assets we don't need. As KP has said numerous times, this next year is still going to be an evaluation process because we don't know how all the pieces will fit.
> 
> That said, it's not speculation that Martell has improved every year. It's not speculation that Barbosa is a shoot-first, pass-second 'PG' who has sub-par defense. Of course he can improve that over time, but a scoring PG is just not what we need. I felt this way about Gilbert, about B. Davis, and now about Barbosa. This team is in a GREAT position, we can simply do better.


We have our core 3 players. Oden, Aldridge, and Roy. Everyone else is expendable. KP has said it before, that you need 3 great players and then role players around them. We need to start turning our young talent at different positions into starters and players who fit roles.

We can't keep everyone. We have Jones, Roy, Rudy, Webster, Outlaw, Jack all fighting for minutes at the 2/3 with Roy taking up 36-40 of them. It's not going to work. IMO, outside of Roy and Rudy(Yet to see what he has done) are all expendable.

As someone said a few days ago, we need to start consolidating our talent, and begin to fit the pieces together to contend in 2-3 years. 

How many more years are going to be "evaluation" years? I believe this is our 2nd or 3rd. We have 3 starters. Now we just need to put some of our extra young talent together and get those other pieces to our starting lineup, and team.


----------



## hasoos

Defensive stops and shot blocking, and big men that can outlet lead to a lot more fast breaks. You need players with speed, confidence, and ability to finish and get those easy buckets. Barbosa has the instinct for that. That being said, I can say there are probably only 2 guys on Portland with that instinct right now, and their names are Roy and Aldridge. I can't even think of one other player on the team who is competant in a fast break situation.


----------



## STOMP

yuyuza1 said:


> Yep. TS% for Webster (54.8%) and Outlaw (49.9%) can support this claim as well.


we've gone round and round on that merry-go-round a few times already. TO's shots as end of the clock bailout option #2 are much much more difficult then Martell's typical wide open camped at the 3 point line looks.

TS% heavily favors guys who shoot a high percentage of their shots from 3s... that doesn't mean that those guys are better shooters. I'm pretty sure if Travis just stood on one side with his feet set waiting for wide open looks all gmae long his percentage would go up... but I don't think MW could do what TO does.

STOMP


----------



## Ukrainefan

I think Hasoos is right, that IF Portland did this, Barbarosa would be used as a 6th man. And I think he would be used more as a shooting guard, always on the floor with Blake or Roy or possibly Kopponen, if he makes the team. Both Blake and Kopponen are big enough that they could guard the other team's shooting guards, apparently something Barbarosa has had a problem with. I also agree with Hasoos that this team needs more speed and attack mentality.


----------



## Sambonius

Well I called this deal sometime ago... I think it is an easy upgrade to our starting lineup and our roster. While I like Webster and still wanted to let him improve with the club, there is no doubt that Barbosa would improve this club tremendously. He would start at the 1 I'm sure.


----------



## Jayps15

STOMP said:


> we've gone round and round on that merry-go-round a few times already. TO's shots as end of the clock bailout option #2 are much much more difficult then Martell's typical wide open camped at the 3 point line looks.
> 
> TS% heavily favors guys who shoot a high percentage of their shots from 3s... that doesn't mean that those guys are better shooters. I'm pretty sure if Travis just stood on one side with his feet set waiting for wide open looks all gmae long his percentage would go up... but I don't think MW could do what TO does.
> 
> STOMP


TS% may favor spot up shooters, but that doesn't excuse Outlaw's from being that low. Of the 62 players that scored more PPG than Travis only 2 had worse TS% (McGrady and Jermaine, both injured and having thier worst statistical years in a long time). His chucker role isn't anything that can't be replaced.


----------



## noknobs

Ukrainefan said:


> I also agree with Hasoos that this team needs more speed and attack mentality.


Let's find a PG with speed who actually passes and doesn't become a SG in a half-court game. Let's find a PG with an attack mentality on _defense._




Ukrainefan said:


> I think Hasoos is right, that IF Portland did this, Barbarosa would be used as a 6th man. And I think he would be used more as a shooting guard, always on the floor with Blake or Roy


Why on earth would be trade Webster and the #13 pick for a guy who'll be used as a sixth man SG??? I mean you just described Rudy's probably role to a T... Talk about things we don't need. I was under the impression we needed a defensive stopper at SF and an upgrade at the PG position.


----------



## Balian

Ukrainefan said:


> I think Hasoos is right, that IF Portland did this, Barbarosa would be used as a 6th man. And I think he would be used more as a shooting guard, always on the floor with Blake or Roy or possibly Kopponen, if he makes the team. Both Blake and Kopponen are big enough that they could guard the other team's shooting guards, apparently something Barbarosa has had a problem with. I also agree with Hasoos that this team needs more speed and attack mentality.


If he is going to use as a 6th man shooting guard, what the hell are we going to do with Rudy? Rudy is a better shooter, better passer, arguably a better defensive player(#1 stealer in ACB). Oh yeah, Rudy gets out on the fast break too.


----------



## noknobs

Blazer Freak said:


> We have our core 3 players. Oden, Aldridge, and Roy. Everyone else is expendable. KP has said it before, that you need 3 great players and then role players around them. We need to start turning our young talent at different positions into starters and players who fit roles.
> 
> We can't keep everyone. We have Jones, Roy, Rudy, Webster, Outlaw, Jack all fighting for minutes at the 2/3 with Roy taking up 36-40 of them. It's not going to work. IMO, outside of Roy and Rudy(Yet to see what he has done) are all expendable.
> 
> As someone said a few days ago, we need to start consolidating our talent, and begin to fit the pieces together to contend in 2-3 years.
> 
> How many more years are going to be "evaluation" years? I believe this is our 2nd or 3rd. We have 3 starters. Now we just need to put some of our extra young talent together and get those other pieces to our starting lineup, and team.


Seeing as Oden and Rudy haven't played a single game, you have to evaluate at least awhile longer... right? But I'm with you on the fact we can't keep everyone, which is why I said if a deal comes along that addresses our needs I'll go for it. I think that's your feeling as well, we just happen to disagree on what we need.


----------



## Sambonius

noknobs said:


> Why on earth would be trade Webster and the #13 pick for a guy who'll be used as a sixth man SG??? I mean you just described Rudy's probably role to a T... Talk about things we don't need. I was under the impression we needed a defensive stopper at SF and an upgrade at the PG position.


I think you're kidding yourself if you don't believe Barbosa will start at the 1. Upgrades at the 3 spot are far easier to fill than upgrades at the 1. Realistically you could fill Martell's production very easily if he was to be traded, a guy like Brandon Rush is available in the mid to late 1st round.


----------



## noknobs

Sambonius said:


> I think you're kidding yourself if you don't believe Barbosa will start at the 1. Upgrades at the 3 spot are far easier to fill than upgrades at the 1. Realistically you could fill Martell's production very easily if he was to be traded, a guy like Brandon Rush is available in the mid to late 1st round.



I was responding to what was posted. I think he'd start, but I personally think you're kidding yourself if you think Barbosa is a starting PG that can put us over the top. He's an upgrade over Blake, but I think only marginally, and not at all in some important areas. With all the movable parts we have we can get someone better than Barbosa as our starting PG.


----------



## Sambonius

noknobs said:


> I was responding to what was posted. I think he'd start, but I personally think you're kidding yourself if you think Barbosa is a starting PG that can put us over the top. He's an upgrade over Blake, but I think only marginally, and not at all in some important areas. With all the movable parts we have we can get someone better than Barbosa as our starting PG.


What other PGs are up there? And please don't say Kirk Heinrich. I'm not at all worried of Barbosa's defensive deficiencies. When you have good team defense you don't need an outstanding man to man defender at the 1, most of all there really isn't many great or even good defensive players at the PG spot. 

I believe this deal is on the table, if Pritchard finds nothing better he will do this deal because it is a clear upgrade. Barbosa is a great shooter, great penetrator, can get past most anyone, can handle the ball well enough. I think those are important factors to why we would make this deal.


----------



## Tortimer

No way KP does this trade. I think it is leaked from Pho to drive up Barbosa's value. Barbosa is a better player then Webster and/or Jack but is a terrible fit at the PG spot for our team. He can't drive in traffic and isn't a good half court player and can't get a shot off if guarded. He is good in a run and gun offense like Pho. I keep hearing we are going to play more up-tempo but nothing like Pho has run in the last few years. I do think Webster and Jack are the players I would like to see traded for an upgrade at SF/PG but even with that I think this a bad trade. We would have to trade Webster + Jack + another player or Webster + Frye and the 13th pick. I would rather trade our 13th + Jack plus all our 2nd round picks and try to move up in the draft for Westbrook or Augustin. 

I would doubt this trade will happen with it being leaked this far ahead of the draft. I don't mind a little over paying for the player if it is the right fit for our team because we do need to clear minutes with adding Oden and Rudy anyway. You can check all the Pho forums and most of their fans would love this trade to happen. I just think this a bad trade and will not happen IMO.


----------



## hasoos

Balian said:


> If he is going to use as a 6th man shooting guard, what the hell are we going to do with Rudy? Rudy is a better shooter, better passer, arguably a better defensive player(#1 stealer in ACB). Oh yeah, Rudy gets out on the fast break too.



All of these guys are very versatile. I don't know about you, but I would imagine you could throw Roy, Rudy and Barbosa out there at the same time, and you would have a very aggressive unit with good ball handling that could switch on D at will. Would you like to see Roy, Rudy and Barbosa coming with 2 7 foot trailers on the fast break? I doubt it. I think a lot of teams would crap their pants.


----------



## Balian

hasoos said:


> All of these guys are very versatile. I don't know about you, but I would imagine you could throw Roy, Rudy and Barbosa out there at the same time, and you would have a very aggressive unit with good ball handling that could switch on D at will. Would you like to see Roy, Rudy and Barbosa coming with 2 7 foot trailers on the fast break? I doubt it. I think a lot of teams would crap their pants.


You plug in any capable point guard with Rudy/Roy/LMA/Oden and your statement still holds true. I much rather have:

Oden/LMA/Rudy/Roy/Augustin
Oden/LMA/Rudy/Roy/Outlaw
Oden/LMA/Rudy/Roy/Westbrook
Oden/LMA/Rudy/Roy/Blake
Oden/LMA/Rudy/Roy/Webster

than

Oden/LMA/Rudy/Roy/Barbosa

2.6 assists per game as a point guard ... NO THANKS.
Webster + #13 + filler for Barbosa? Keep dreaming Phoenix.


----------



## nikolokolus

There's no two ways about it, this a win-win trade for both Phoenix and Portland, and I've always held the belief that you have to give up something to get something (unless you are LA and Memphis).

I really doubt this deal will materialize, which is a shame in my opinion, but it wouldn't preclude the blazers from making other moves on draft day either, KP would still have that bucket full of second rounders and Raef's expiring deal to play around with if so desired.

But like I said, this deal is probably deader than death since we've actually heard about it this soon.


----------



## nikolokolus

Balian said:


> You plug in any capable point guard with Rudy/Roy/LMA/Oden and your statement still holds true. I much rather have:
> 
> Oden/LMA/Rudy/Roy/Augustin
> *Oden/LMA/Rudy/Roy/Outlaw*
> Oden/LMA/Rudy/Roy/Westbrook
> *Oden/LMA/Rudy/Roy/Blake
> Oden/LMA/Rudy/Roy/Webster
> *
> than
> 
> Oden/LMA/Rudy/Roy/Barbosa


Statisitically speaking Barbosa would be a much better option than the lineups in bold, as for Westbrook or Augustin, that's purely academic at this point since none of us has actually seen them play in the NBA.

Barbosa is definitely not a pure point guard, and was never much of a distributor in D'Antoni's system, but Barbosa/Roy/Rudy/LMA/Greg on the break sounds pretty damn good to me, it's the half-court, pick-n-roll offense that I'd be most concerned with.


----------



## dkap

Maybe Barbosa isn't the answer, but could he be a temporary solution that could later be turned into something better? The elite point guards are difficult to come by, and the odds of getting one in a trade figure to be much better if you can offer back a pretty good one (plus a lot of something else) in return.

Dan


----------



## NateBishop3

I think Barbosa is a good player, but I'm tending to lean towards the "he's not the right fit" side of this argument. We need a point guard who can push the tempo, distribute the ball, play solid defense, and hit the open shot. I'm not really sure that Barbosa is that guy. If he's the BPA then I guess you make the trade. We need to do something. I can't stand another year of Jarrett Jack on this team. 

In regards to Webster, I have said before that Martell has one of the purest strokes in the NBA. I stand by the statement. His problem isn't in his mechanics or even in his work ethic, it's psychological and that's a hard thing to fix. You can't compare Martell to Travis because Outlaw never had a confidence problem. TO just needed to develop his game before he was actually ready to contribute. Martell has the game, he just doesn't have the mental toughness right now to be consistant. 

The best comparison for Webster is Jermaine O'Neal. I don't know if you all remember, but JO used to dominate in summer league. He showed real flashes of the talent that he had, he just never could gather himself when he played. He would come into the game, make a couple errors, and then Dunleavy would pull him out for Sheed or Brian Grant. Once O'Neal went to Indiana he finally settled down and found himself. I'm worried that will happen again with Webster. 

Martell simply hasn't figured out how to play within himself. We all saw it in the 24 point quarter. It's like he hits a couple shots and his confidence goes through the roof. He starts to believe he can shoot from anywhere and he just goes off. Then he started getting too confident and he took some bad shots, then it was like it was back to square one. 

So the question right now is this; will Martell ever gain the confidence to be a star shooting guard in the NBA? If the answer is yes, don't trade him. If the answer is no, trade him now for whatever value you can get in return. If the answer is maybe or I don't know, then I think you still hold onto him. Despite what many think, I feel Martell has made progress over the last three years. I think he still needs some work, but what high school player doesn't? It just makes it harder to accept his flaws because we could have had Chris Pual or Deron Williams. 

With that said, I'd probably trade Webster for the right price. I'm just worried it will come back to bite us in the butt.


----------



## chairman

You put Webster in the old Phoenix offense or GoldenState's current offense where the players eventually get into a rhythm due partly to the volume of outside shots they take and also because they spread you out so well, he would haunt us for years.


----------



## Perfection

To be honest, Roy and Rudy can't play consistent minutes at SF. A few, but not starters minutes there. Do you think they can guard a LeBron or Paul Pierce? 

I too do not think that Barbosa is the best fit, but I wouldn't be surprised if KP is high on him. San Antonio did originally draft Barbosa to begin with, and you have to think that KP could have played a role in that. 

A three guard rotation of "PG", Roy, and Rudy, if he's as good as we think, makes sense (ala Drexler, Porter, Strickland). Those three players rotate and two are always on the floor together. Roy can play enough PG in those situations. Then you have the "Big" rotation of Oden, LMA, Pryz, Frye with a bit of Outlaw thrown in. Clearly that is more than enough people with redundant parts, but it is nice to have the versatility of changing the lineup around (such as the case when Outlaw is at the PF). 

SF is an issue but it's probably the most talented position in the league. Through FA or trade block, someone will be available that we'll plug in. Maybe Webster and Outlaw (or Jones) are the answer. Maybe not. I'd feel a whole lot better if Webster was training again with Kobe this summer. 

Overall, I don't buy Barbosa to Portland in the long run. He doesn't have the handle, shrivels under heat (playing against SA) and if we're going after him we might as well get a guy like Ben or Eric Gordon to play PG instead.


----------



## NateBishop3

What if KP intends to get Barbosa with the 13 and Webster. Then trade Raef and a combination of other assets to get Richard Jefferson? 

Barbosa
Roy
Jefferson
Aldridge
Oden

Is that a winning combo?


----------



## Sonny-Canzano

What Barbosa provides on the offensive end Rudy can do better. I really don't see the need for Barbo when we have Rudy coming over.

I'd much rather see KP trade up in the draft for something we really could use, like a true PG.

In two years D.J. Augustin >>> Barbosa

TRADE UP, KP!!


----------



## LameR

Perfection said:


> To be honest, Roy and Rudy can't play consistent minutes at SF. A few, but not starters minutes there. Do you think they can guard a LeBron or Paul Pierce?
> 
> I too do not think that Barbosa is the best fit, but I wouldn't be surprised if KP is high on him. San Antonio did originally draft Barbosa to begin with, and you have to think that KP could have played a role in that.
> 
> A three guard rotation of "PG", Roy, and Rudy, if he's as good as we think, makes sense (ala Drexler, Porter, Strickland). Those three players rotate and two are always on the floor together. Roy can play enough PG in those situations. Then you have the "Big" rotation of Oden, LMA, Pryz, Frye with a bit of Outlaw thrown in. Clearly that is more than enough people with redundant parts, but it is nice to have the versatility of changing the lineup around (such as the case when Outlaw is at the PF).
> 
> SF is an issue but it's probably the most talented position in the league. Through FA or trade block, someone will be available that we'll plug in. Maybe Webster and Outlaw (or Jones) are the answer. Maybe not. I'd feel a whole lot better if Webster was training again with Kobe this summer.
> 
> Overall, I don't buy Barbosa to Portland in the long run. He doesn't have the handle, shrivels under heat (playing against SA) and if we're going after him we might as well get a guy like Ben or Eric Gordon to play PG instead.


I agree with pretty much everything you said. I think we're one guy away from having our guard rotation solidified, and that our big rotation is fine as is. Unlike some people, I'm alright with keeping Webster/Outlaw this year unless KP makes a good move in the off-season. I really think they can be solid players for us, and would prefer if we kept both and used this as another year of evaluation. We haven't seen either play with Oden or Rudy, and I think that is a big part of whether or not they fit with the future. Also, their average age is 22. Talking about going for a "young guy" in the draft when these guys are essentially the same age with NBA experience is stupid.


----------



## Crimson the Cat

If this is true then it shows what direction they're considering going - a combo-guard that can help Brandon man the point guard spot. As far as combo guards go Barbosa is an excellent choice. Just excellent. I really like this move. I would rather not give up Jack also. Preferably a 2nd round pick instead. Not that I'm opposed to moving Jack, but he does hold value and I'd rather keep him rather than use as filler.

Sure there may better options, but are they available? Calderon? No. Devin Harris? Doesn't look like it. Mo Williams? Too big of a contract, IMO. Hinrich? Too expensive? 

I like this!


----------



## STOMP

Jayps15 said:


> TS% may favor spot up shooters, but that doesn't excuse Outlaw's from being that low. Of the 62 players that scored more PPG than Travis only 2 had worse TS% (McGrady and Jermaine, both injured and having thier worst statistical years in a long time). His chucker role isn't anything that can't be replaced.


but from what we've seen from MW, he sure isn't the guy who could do it. I cringe when he puts the ball on the floor... and he has continued to have the yips. Is that a guy who deserves/needs more responsibility?

On the other hand with multiple guys on the Blazers shooting a better % from 3 then Martell, his specialty role of standing in the corner as a relief valve is both easily replaced and upgraded.

STOMP


----------



## Utherhimo

outlaw has peaked sell him while we can!!!!!

I would rather keep both but webster as way more upside, outlaw is pretty much what he is...


----------



## BlazerFan22

Why are people talking like this deal is set in stone? I beleive the deal read Barbosa become a member of the Trail Blazers, with Martell Webster, the thirteenth overall pick, *and another piece coming back to Phoenix*. *So what is that other piece comeing back from Phoenix? No one knows* That means Portland might get more than just Barbosa in this deal depending on that other piece. Personally if the Blazers do get Barbosa I doubt any of us know what the deal is going to be.


----------



## Blazer Freak

It means it'll be Webster/Jack/13 for Barbosa..Hence the "coming back *to* PHX"


----------



## ProZach

Funny, I was just listening to 710 ESPN radio down here in L.A., and they're talking about the Clippers maybe offering their lottery pick (7 i think) and a bench player for Barbosa. The announcers weren't too keen on the idea, stating that Barbosa isn't really a PG (even Steve Nash said as much) and is probably more of a product of Phoenix's uptempo style more than anything else. 

I pretty much agree. Barbosa is great for a team that needs a good combo-guard off the bench, but for a team like us, who needs a starting PG that can get Roy, Aldridge, and Oden sufficient touches in the offense, Barbosa isn't what we need.

No thanks.


----------



## Oldmangrouch

OK, a couple of points.

I tend to take awards with a grain of salt, but Barbosa did finish way ahead of Travis in the 6th man voting. That tells you that he is respected around the league.

I find it interesting that people think we can make do with a Roy/Rudy backcourt, but not Roy/Barbosa. Barbosa is not a pure PG, but he handles well enough to be considered a combo guard. Rudy is a straight SG.

BTW, what makes people think Rudy is going to come into the NBA and kick butt? Parker couldn't do it, Ginobli couldn't do it. If it took them time to adjust to the league, what makes you think Rudy will be any different? Are you honestly arguing that Rudy is *better* than those guys?

Lastly, comparing Webster to Jermaine is a red herring. Jermaine had tremendous raw physical talent, but needed to develop his game. Webster is an exceedingly average talent who was drafted for his "skill"...shooting the ball. That skill proved to be very ordinary, leaving Webster as nothing more than a journeyman who will get too many chances just because he was drafted waaaay too high. If Webster busts his butt to improve his defense, his ceiling is Rick Fox. Whoop-dee-diddle-do. Jack has a better chance of coming back to haunt us than Webster.


----------



## BlazerFan22

ProZach said:


> Funny, I was just listening to 710 ESPN radio down here in L.A., and they're talking about the Clippers maybe offering their lottery pick (7 i think) and a bench player for Barbosa. The announcers weren't too keen on the idea, stating that Barbosa isn't really a PG (even Steve Nash said as much) and is probably more of a product of Phoenix's uptempo style more than anything else.
> 
> I pretty much agree. Barbosa is great for a team that needs a good combo-guard off the bench, but for a team like us, who needs a starting PG that can get Roy, Aldridge, and Oden sufficient touches in the offense, Barbosa isn't what we need.
> 
> No thanks.


True PG or combo G Roy will bring the ball up to portland most of the time anyway. So does it really matter?


----------



## alext42083

Even if there was another piece from Phoenix, it wouldn't be worth much since it wouldn't be Amare or Diaw. Their rotation is like five guys and a bunch of scrubs. Sean Marks anyone?


----------



## BlazerFan22

to bad Kirk Hinrichs contract is so damn long I would rather have him at PG.


----------



## ProZach

BlazerFan22 said:


> True PG or combo G Roy will bring the ball up to portland most of the time anyway. So does it really matter?


So you'd just rather get a guy who would play the same role as Rudy, give up some of our young, valuable assets, AND wear out Roy even more by making him have to bring the ball up against smaller, quicker PG's, just so we can get a combo-guard who fills none of our needs... of course it matters! Who are you, Isiah Thomas???


----------



## Devil in the Details

I think a lot of us need to step back and soberly assess what the Blazers' real weaknesses were last year and then decide which of them we feel *confident* will be fixed by Oden and Rudy.

1) Weak rebounding
2) Little ability to execute the fast break collectively as a team
3) Having no guard other than Roy that can aggressively create his own shot from the perimeter AND take the ball to the rim at will AND competently run the fast break.
4) Weak perimeter defense

Oden should take care of #1. 

Barbosa takes care of #2 and #3. One thing that was painfully clear last year was that Brandon was the only starter that could penetrate and create easy buckets when the offense got stuck. Jack can do this, which is why he played so much in the 4th quarter, but he obviously can't run the break or create his own shot on the perimeter. Barbosa's shot has to be respected and he can drive at will. Watch the video below and imagine Barbosa driving and getting easy buckets or dishing to Oden/Aldridge like he does to Amare in the video. This will really open up our offense. Barbosa is also a very talented finisher and distributer on the fast break and will allow us to maximize the running ability of Aldridge and the rebounding ability of Oden. No one on our team does that effectively, not even Brandon. We have a lot of guys like Martell and Jack that can do one or two things pretty well, but we NEED another guard besides Brandon who can do all three RELIABLY and AGGRESSIVELY.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD5q9bf48uI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSfwHCYOf0Q&feature=related

Now, he's not a great defender, but with a 6'10" reach and his speed, he can easily become one. D'Antoni's failure to spend time working with Amare and Barbosa on their defense is one of the reasons he got fired. McMillan should be able to mold him into a solid, if not very good, on the ball defender. 

* Listen, I like the guy and have been pulling for his since we drafted him, but Martell Webster does not really help much with 2, 3, or 4. He's handle is below average for a starting NBA 2/3. He is a solid but not great spot-up 3pt shooter, but rarely looks to/does create his own shot or takes the ball to the rim effectively. Nor is he much help in transition. Some of Martell's weaknesses come from a lack of aggressiveness, but for whatever reason, he is not there yet and isn't even that close. Barbosa is a much more versatile and deadly offensive player. 

* Rudy Fernandez might also help with #2 and #3. But we really don't know that yet. He hasn't demonstrated the ability to run the fast break against NBA athletes or to finish at the rim against NBA defenders. Barbosa has. Even if Rudy is everything we hope he is, then we'd be "stuck" with three versatile, deadly shooters and scorers in Brandon, Barbosa and Rudy that could alternate or play together in the three guard lineup. This would be insanely difficult to matchup with when Aldridge and Oden are in the picture. 

Finally, Barbosa is young and fits into the timeline of our core AND has a very reasonable contract. He is a very good fit for this Blazers team and will make Lamarcus, Brandon and Greg Oden very happy with the attention he draws and his ability to knock down shots and break down defenses. Finally, he is aggressive - he looks to score and take on the defense on the break. For our team, this attitude and confidence will be contagious and is just what the doctor ordered.


----------



## Oldmangrouch

ProZach said:


> So you'd just rather get a guy who would play the same role as Rudy, give up some of our young, valuable assets, AND wear out Roy even more by making him have to bring the ball up against smaller, quicker PG's, just so we can get a combo-guard who fills none of our needs... of course it matters! Who are you, Isiah Thomas???


There is a difference between being a ball-handler and being a playmaker. Barbosa is not a great playmaker, but there is nothing wrong with his ball-handling. He can, as you say, bring the ball up against the waterbugs who might give Roy trouble. 

Once the ball is over half-court, I think we can all agree we want the ball in Roy's hands.


----------



## RoyToy

I just don't see it working. It doesn't seem like something KP would do.

I saw that someone said the Clippers are looking at Barbosa. Maybe that's why KP is going for Barbosa? Idk.


----------



## Perfection

"Thousands of smokescreens" to quote KP. I'm not concerned about any of it until it actually happens or we find out what is (was) truly on the table.


----------



## Tortimer

Devil in the Details said:


> I think a lot of us need to step back and soberly assess what the Blazers' real weaknesses were last year and then decide which of them we feel *confident* will be fixed by Oden and Rudy.
> 
> 1) Weak rebounding
> 2) Little ability to execute the fast break collectively as a team
> 3) Having no guard other than Roy that can aggressively create his own shot from the perimeter AND take the ball to the rim at will AND competently run the fast break.
> 4) Weak perimeter defense
> 
> Oden should take care of #1.
> 
> Barbosa takes care of #2 and #3. One thing that was painfully clear last year was that Brandon was the only starter that could penetrate and create easy buckets when the offense got stuck. Jack can do this, which is why he played so much in the 4th quarter, but he obviously can't run the break or create his own shot on the perimeter. Barbosa's shot has to be respected and he can drive at will. Watch the video below and imagine Barbosa driving and getting easy buckets or dishing to Oden/Aldridge like he does to Amare in the video. This will really open up our offense. Barbosa is also a very talented finisher and distributer on the fast break and will allow us to maximize the running ability of Aldridge and the rebounding ability of Oden. No one on our team does that effectively, not even Brandon. We have a lot of guys like Martell and Jack that can do one or two things pretty well, but we NEED another guard besides Brandon who can do all three RELIABLY and AGGRESSIVELY.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD5q9bf48uI
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSfwHCYOf0Q&feature=related
> 
> Now, he's not a great defender, but with a 6'10" reach and his speed, he can easily become one. D'Antoni's failure to spend time working with Amare and Barbosa on their defense is one of the reasons he got fired. McMillan should be able to mold him into a solid, if not very good, on the ball defender.
> 
> * Listen, I like the guy and have been pulling for his since we drafted him, but Martell Webster does not really help much with 2, 3, or 4. He's handle is below average for a starting NBA 2/3. He is a solid but not great spot-up 3pt shooter, but rarely looks to/does create his own shot or takes the ball to the rim effectively. Nor is he much help in transition. Some of Martell's weaknesses come from a lack of aggressiveness, but for whatever reason, he is not there yet and isn't even that close. Barbosa is a much more versatile and deadly offensive player.
> 
> * Rudy Fernandez might also help with #2 and #3. But we really don't know that yet. He hasn't demonstrated the ability to run the fast break against NBA athletes or to finish at the rim against NBA defenders. Barbosa has. Even if Rudy is everything we hope he is, then we'd be "stuck" with three versatile, deadly shooters and scorers in Brandon, Barbosa and Rudy that could alternate or play together in the three guard lineup. This would be insanely difficult to matchup with when Aldridge and Oden are in the picture.
> 
> Finally, Barbosa is young and fits into the timeline of our core AND has a very reasonable contract. He is a very good fit for this Blazers team and will make Lamarcus, Brandon and Greg Oden very happy with the attention he draws and his ability to knock down shots and break down defenses. Finally, he is aggressive - he looks to score and take on the defense on the break. For our team, this attitude and confidence will be contagious and is just what the doctor ordered.


The only thing Barbosa would help us with is #2. Barbosa is not very good at creating his own shot unless it is on a fast break. He has a hard time getting a shot off when guarded. Barbosa is a bad fit for our team even from what you say was our needs from last year. I also don't think Barbosa's contract is reasonable. I think he is overpaid 1-1.5 million per year. I don't mind over paying a little if he was a good fit.


----------



## ProZach

Oldmangrouch said:


> There is a difference between being a ball-handler and being a playmaker. Barbosa is not a great playmaker, but there is nothing wrong with his ball-handling. He can, as you say, bring the ball up against the waterbugs who might give Roy trouble.
> 
> Once the ball is over half-court, I think we can all agree we want the ball in Roy's hands.


Sorry but I think whenever we do upgrade at PG, we're going to want a playmaker... That's probably the bare minimum... 



Oldmangrouch said:


> I tend to take awards with a grain of salt, but Barbosa did finish way ahead of Travis in the 6th man voting. That tells you that he is respected around the league.


He's a respected 6th man, and that's something we don't need. We need a starting PG with a pass-first attitude. It's not that hard to understand.



Oldmangrouch said:


> I find it interesting that people think we can make do with a Roy/Rudy backcourt, but not Roy/Barbosa. Barbosa is not a pure PG, but he handles well enough to be considered a combo guard. Rudy is a straight SG.


I don't like either of those backcourts to start games.


----------



## nikolokolus

By the way Devil_in_the_Details, nice first post and welcome to the board.

I think you made some really well reasoned points. Definitely agree with 2), and partially 3); Barbosa isn't spectacular at creating his own shot since he tends to shoot with the ball in front of his body making it easier for defenders to bother, but I do think he'd be pretty good at handling the ball enough to bring it up court then dish it off to Brandon, and maybe even Rudy after he's had time to adjust to the league -- he's known to be a very good passer.


----------



## STOMP

Oldmangrouch said:


> BTW, what makes people think Rudy is going to come into the NBA and kick butt? Parker couldn't do it, Ginobli couldn't do it. If it took them time to adjust to the league, what makes you think Rudy will be any different? Are you honestly arguing that Rudy is *better* than those guys?


We've all heard Blazer management and various international scouts raving about Rudy's talents, I'm sure some here are believing what those guys have to say. Also his offensive game is predicated on his being a lights out outside shooter who can pull up off the dribble. Those skills are rare and very hard to defend in every league. Manu is much more of a slasher so the size and speed of NBA defenders would take more adjusting to and Parker was what, 19 years old? Heck, mix in that Rudy was drafted earlier then either guy dispite the concerns that he might never come over.

but whats kick butt level for RF? I'm guessing he's eventually going to take over the other starting guard spot next season and average around 25-30 minutes and maybe 12-14 PPG. How far off is that from what you're expecting or do you not make predictions until you've seen him?

STOMP


----------



## Balian

Devil in the Details said:


> I think a lot of us need to step back and soberly assess what the Blazers' real weaknesses were last year and then decide which of them we feel *confident* will be fixed by Oden and Rudy.
> 
> 1) Weak rebounding
> 2) Little ability to execute the fast break collectively as a team
> 3) Having no guard other than Roy that can aggressively create his own shot from the perimeter AND take the ball to the rim at will AND competently run the fast break.
> 4) Weak perimeter defense
> 
> Oden should take care of #1.
> 
> Barbosa takes care of #2 and #3. One thing that was painfully clear last year was that Brandon was the only starter that could penetrate and create easy buckets when the offense got stuck. Jack can do this, which is why he played so much in the 4th quarter, but he obviously can't run the break or create his own shot on the perimeter. Barbosa's shot has to be respected and he can drive at will. Watch the video below and imagine Barbosa driving and getting easy buckets or dishing to Oden/Aldridge like he does to Amare in the video. This will really open up our offense. Barbosa is also a very talented finisher and distributer on the fast break and will allow us to maximize the running ability of Aldridge and the rebounding ability of Oden. No one on our team does that effectively, not even Brandon. We have a lot of guys like Martell and Jack that can do one or two things pretty well, but we NEED another guard besides Brandon who can do all three RELIABLY and AGGRESSIVELY.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD5q9bf48uI
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSfwHCYOf0Q&feature=related
> 
> Now, he's not a great defender, but with a 6'10" reach and his speed, he can easily become one. D'Antoni's failure to spend time working with Amare and Barbosa on their defense is one of the reasons he got fired. McMillan should be able to mold him into a solid, if not very good, on the ball defender.
> 
> * Listen, I like the guy and have been pulling for his since we drafted him, but Martell Webster does not really help much with 2, 3, or 4. He's handle is below average for a starting NBA 2/3. He is a solid but not great spot-up 3pt shooter, but rarely looks to/does create his own shot or takes the ball to the rim effectively. Nor is he much help in transition. Some of Martell's weaknesses come from a lack of aggressiveness, but for whatever reason, he is not there yet and isn't even that close. Barbosa is a much more versatile and deadly offensive player.
> 
> * Rudy Fernandez might also help with #2 and #3. But we really don't know that yet. He hasn't demonstrated the ability to run the fast break against NBA athletes or to finish at the rim against NBA defenders. Barbosa has. Even if Rudy is everything we hope he is, then we'd be "stuck" with three versatile, deadly shooters and scorers in Brandon, Barbosa and Rudy that could alternate or play together in the three guard lineup. This would be insanely difficult to matchup with when Aldridge and Oden are in the picture.
> 
> Finally, Barbosa is young and fits into the timeline of our core AND has a very reasonable contract. He is a very good fit for this Blazers team and will make Lamarcus, Brandon and Greg Oden very happy with the attention he draws and his ability to knock down shots and break down defenses. Finally, he is aggressive - he looks to score and take on the defense on the break. For our team, this attitude and confidence will be contagious and is just what the doctor ordered.


Can we please stop with the notion that Barbosa is a good perimeter defender?? He plays little defense. Ask Tony Parker. He does not pass the ball. 2.6 AST per game is anemic for a point guard. Let see what Rudy and Oden can do before we go after someone.


----------



## Devil in the Details

Balian said:


> Can we please stop with the notion that Barbosa is a good perimeter defender?? He plays little defense. Ask Tony Parker. He does not pass the ball. 2.6 AST per game is anemic for a point guard. Let see what Rudy and Oden can do before we go after someone.


I didn't say Barbosa is a good perimeter defender. I said that with his speed and wingspan, he certainly could become one. D'Antoni has been widely criticized for not spending enough time with Barbosa developing his defensive skills. There is plenty of reason to believe that he could become a solid perimeter defender under McMillan & Co. in time.


----------



## Reep

I would certainly do #13 and Jack for Barbosa. I'm not sure how I feel about adding in Webster or other value. W/o Webster it seems like too little, with him it seems like too much.

The thing I like about Barbosa is that he always seems to hit the big three or blow past everyone for the big layup in games. I would love to see how he would look next to Rudy.


----------



## Sambonius

Balian said:


> He does not pass the ball. 2.6 AST per game is anemic for a point guard. Let see what Rudy and Oden can do before we go after someone.


You are drawing some pretty irrational conclusions. Just because he averages 2.6 assists a game, doesn't mean he doesn't pass. In fact, I have never seen Barbosa be overly aggressive and choose to shoot instead of pass when there was a good opportunity for a teammate to score. Also, Barbosa doesn't play PG for Phoenix. So, he got his 2.6 assists at the SG position.


----------



## Blazer Freak

Balian said:


> Can we please stop with the notion that Barbosa is a good perimeter defender?? He plays little defense. Ask Tony Parker. He does not pass the ball. 2.6 AST per game is anemic for a point guard. Let see what Rudy and Oden can do before we go after someone.


The guy plays the 2 in PHX and is behind STEVE NASH AS THEIR POINT GUARD. Stop bringing up this 2.6 apg because it doesn't mean anything. We don't need a playmaker really at the 1, DJ would be nice, but if this is all we could get Brandon is more than capable of being our playmaker. If we can't get a player like DJ, then somebody like Barbosa would fit in great. He might not be a very god perimeter defender but he is more than capable right now, and with Nate would be even better. His real strength on D though is playing the passing lanes, that part of his D he is very good at. 

I just find it funny how we all know Barbosa plays the 2 in PHX with Nash who leads the league in assists the last few years, and you bring up Barbosa's 2.6apg. All we need is someone who is fast to zip the ball up on a fast break. If it isn't a FB opportunity then Roy brings it up and the play starts.


----------



## Balian

Sambonius said:


> You are drawing some pretty irrational conclusions. Just because he averages 2.6 assists a game, doesn't mean he doesn't pass. In fact, I have never seen Barbosa be overly aggressive and choose to shoot instead of pass when there was a good opportunity for a teammate to score. Also, Barbosa doesn't play PG for Phoenix. So, he got his 2.6 assists at the SG position.





Blazer Freak said:


> The guy plays the 2 in PHX and is behind STEVE NASH AS THEIR POINT GUARD. Stop bringing up this 2.6 apg because it doesn't mean anything. We don't need a playmaker really at the 1, DJ would be nice, but if this is all we could get Brandon is more than capable of being our playmaker. If we can't get a player like DJ, then somebody like Barbosa would fit in great. He might not be a very god perimeter defender but he is more than capable right now, and with Nate would be even better. His real strength on D though is playing the passing lanes, that part of his D he is very good at.
> 
> I just find it funny how we all know Barbosa plays the 2 in PHX with Nash who leads the league in assists the last few years, and you bring up Barbosa's 2.6apg. All we need is someone who is fast to zip the ball up on a fast break. If it isn't a FB opportunity then Roy brings it up and the play starts.


If Barbosa is a SG, why do we need him? Rudy is a better shooter, better passer and leads the ACB in steals at shooting guard. As a shooting guard, he averages over 4 AST a game. Thats like 6-8 ASTs over here. What's the point in getting YET another SG when Rudy is on the way?

If Barbosa is not a point guard, then we don't need him.


----------



## Blazer Freak

Balian said:


> If Barbosa is a SG, why do we need him? Rudy is a better shooter, better passer and leads the ACB in steals at shooting guard. As a shooting guard, he averages over 4 AST a game. Thats like 6-8 ASTs over here. What's the point in getting YET another SG when Rudy is on the way?


He's not a SG, they just play him at the 2 when he comes off the bench for the Suns. Good god, your taking everything people say and spin it to make Barbosa look worse.

Now I'm guessing you'll probably say that why are we trading for some guy who comes off the bench right?

If you get Barbosa you play a lineup of Barbosa/Rudy/Roy/LA/Oden.


----------



## Peaceman

Balian said:


> If Barbosa is a SG, why do we need him? Rudy is a better shooter, better passer and leads the ACB in steals at shooting guard. As a shooting guard, he averages over 4 AST a game. Thats like 6-8 ASTs over here. What's the point in getting YET another SG when Rudy is on the way?
> 
> If Barbosa is not a point guard, then we don't need him.



Why do we need Rudy? We have Webster and Roy at SG. Why is Pritchard looking at various combo guards like Ben Gordon, Barbosa, Westbrook(played a lot of 2 at UCLA and isn't a assist guy), and Eric Gordon? The answer is we need specialist to complement what we have. Roy can handle the ball well, so a true PG isn't essential. If we trade up and get Westbrook, I serious doubt he will ever average more then 5 assist per game in his career. He may be a top notch defender, again a specialist, not a traditional PG. Barbosa is way better then Webster and he has had enough playing time to know he won't be a great defender and never a aggressive player. He shoot good, but isn't good at anything else.


----------



## Balian

Blazer Freak said:


> He's not a SG, they just play him at the 2 when he comes off the bench for the Suns. Good god, your taking everything people say and spin it to make Barbosa look worse.
> 
> Now I'm guessing you'll probably say that why are we trading for some guy who comes off the bench right?
> 
> If you get Barbosa you play a lineup of Barbosa/Rudy/Roy/LA/Oden.


ROFL ....yes, lets not have a true point guard and play Rudy at the 3 spot. That lineup is not worth giving up 3 young talents. Thank gawd KP is the GM. This is just one of many trade proposals KP laughed at.


----------



## Blazer Freak

Balian said:


> ROFL ....yes, lets not have a true point guard and play Rudy at the 3 spot. That lineup is not worth giving up 3 young talents. Thank gawd KP is the GM. This is just one of many trade proposals KP laughed at.


Good call, looks like in that lineup Roy is guarding the 3. *******. We have no need for a true point guard if we have Roy. I would by no means call Jack a young talent. More like a career bench player who still cannot run a fast break.


----------



## Samuel

Blazer Freak said:


> It means it'll be Webster/Jack/13 for Barbosa..Hence the "coming back *to* PHX"


I'd do that deal.


----------



## Balian

Blazer Freak said:


> Good call, looks like in that lineup Roy is guarding the 3. *******. We have no need for a true point guard if we have Roy. I would by no means call Jack a young talent. More like a career bench player who still cannot run a fast break.


You actually think one of the three players is Jack? The source specifically stated #13, Webster and another piece. No mention of Jack anywhere. Jack is not your typical Suns type player. If KP waives Jack, the Blazers would be ahead.


----------



## B_&_B

The fact that this rumor has been reported pretty much tells us that its false and not gonna happen. Havent we learned by now that any report of "teams talking about trading x for x" means the deal is dead and isnt gonna happen?


----------



## nikolokolus

B_&_B said:


> The fact that this rumor has been reported pretty much tells us that its false and not gonna happen. Havent we learned by now that any report of "teams talking about trading x for x" means the deal is dead and isnt gonna happen?


Mostly, although the J-Kidd trade does spring to mind -- I'd call that a big time exception.


----------



## BBert

Wow. A 10-page thread on a supposed trade proposal of Webster plus our #13 pick plus another player to match salaries; for Barbosa? I don't have time to wade through this 10-page debate, but I'll just chime in with my opinion anyway.

I have one word for this rumor: "RIDICULOUS!"

I wouldn't trade Martell straight up for Barbosa, let alone throw in a lottery pick and another player. We don't need Barbosa. Martell is a much better fit with our lineup (and coach), IMO. 

eace:


----------



## ChadWick

nikolokolus said:


> Mostly, although the J-Kidd trade does spring to mind -- I'd call that a big time exception.


haha that was a horrible trade for Dallas:lol:


----------



## yuyuza1

You guys are selling me on this deal. It doesn't look as bad now as it did this morning. I especially liked the post highlighting Barbosa's tools to be a good defender and Nate's track record in developing good defenders.


----------



## Sug

I don't like this deal.


----------



## Oldmangrouch

STOMP said:


> We've all heard Blazer management and various international scouts raving about Rudy's talents, I'm sure some here are believing what those guys have to say. Also his offensive game is predicated on his being a lights out outside shooter who can pull up off the dribble. Those skills are rare and very hard to defend in every league. Manu is much more of a slasher so the size and speed of NBA defenders would take more adjusting to and Parker was what, 19 years old? Heck, mix in that Rudy was drafted earlier then either guy dispite the concerns that he might never come over.
> 
> but whats kick butt level for RF? I'm guessing he's eventually going to take over the other starting guard spot next season and average around 25-30 minutes and maybe 12-14 PPG. How far off is that from what you're expecting or do you not make predictions until you've seen him?
> 
> STOMP


Having only seen him on a few YouTube type vids, I am reluctant to make an exact prediction. In general terms, I hope that by late next season he is as productive in the 3rd guard role as Jack. If he becomes a starter in his second season, I will be satisfied.

Just to be clear: I am not dissing his talent. I expect him to be a productive NBA player - I just anticipate a rough transition period. The mere fact that he supposedly hasn't learned any English yet doesn't bode well.


----------



## OntheRocks

No way this happens so let's just move on.


----------



## Oldmangrouch

Balian said:


> You actually think one of the three players is Jack? The source specifically stated #13, Webster and another piece. No mention of Jack anywhere. Jack is not your typical Suns type player. If KP waives Jack, the Blazers would be ahead.


Dude, all this Jack hate is getting downright silly.

JJ has a skill that is badly underappreciated: he goes to the hole strong, draws fouls, and is an assassin at the FT line. It isn't Jack's fault that the team mistakenly thought he was a PG. The same fool who came up with that idea also thought Webster was better than Paul or Williams. :lol:

Save the animosity for Nash!


----------



## Blazer Freak

Balian said:


> You actually think one of the three players is Jack? The source specifically stated #13, Webster and another piece. No mention of Jack anywhere. Jack is not your typical Suns type player. If KP waives Jack, the Blazers would be ahead.


Considering that his salary makes it work, and is the only reasonable player we would throw in there with Webster and 13, yeah I think it is Jack.


----------



## MAS RipCity

trade 13 and webby to move up in the draft..barbs is cool but not my 1st option.


----------



## PorterIn2004

Oldmangrouch said:


> Dude, all this Jack hate is getting downright silly.
> 
> JJ has a skill that is badly underappreciated: he goes to the hole strong, draws fouls, and is an assassin at the FT line. It isn't Jack's fault that the team mistakenly thought he was a PG. The same fool who came up with that idea also thought Webster was better than Paul or Williams. :lol:
> 
> Save the animosity for Nash!


I agree that Jack's got a nice skill set. It just seems to me that Fernandez has that same skill set and then some, as does Roy (though Roy's not nearly as consistent from the line as either Jack or Fernandez... yet). Thus, it seems best to move Jack somehow or other while his trade value is as high as it's likely to be here -- before he's a combo guard stuck on the bench behind two better combo guards. Yes, there are times when one might want all three on the court together, such as the end of games, but even then....


----------



## HispanicCausinPanic

I like his game, but that is giving up too much for him!


----------



## nikolokolus

HispanicCausinPanic said:


> I like his game, but that is giving up too much for him!


So if that's too rich for Barbosa, what kind of player do you think Webster, Jack, and the 13th would be fair value for?


----------



## HispanicCausinPanic

that's tough! I think what you should get back for that much, won't match $$$$ wise. I probably am placing more value on our guys then the rest of the league does. Let me think for awhile!


----------



## Damian Necronamous

If you deal Webster, the 13th pick and (you need to add salary, soo...) Rodriguez (???) for Barbosa, you guys will be getting away with a big steal of a trade.

Outlaw is a much superior player to Webster, and you'd likely have James Jones back, since he'd pick up his option after seeing a clear opening for himself as the backup SF.

Barbosa/Blake
Roy/Rudy
Outlaw/Jones
LA/Frye
Oden/Przybilla

This is a trade the Blazers have to make if it's on the table. Barbosa is explosive as hell, he has come up big in the playoffs before (mostly against the Lakers), and, hell...his slowness on defense would only equate to more blocks for Oden.


----------



## Jayps15

Damian Necronamous said:


> If you deal Webster, the 13th pick and (you need to add salary, soo...) Rodriguez (???) for Barbosa, you guys will be getting away with a big steal of a trade.
> 
> *Outlaw is a much superior player to Webster*, and you'd likely have James Jones back, since he'd pick up his option after seeing a clear opening for himself as the backup SF.
> 
> Barbosa/Blake
> Roy/Rudy
> Outlaw/Jones
> LA/Frye
> Oden/Przybilla
> 
> This is a trade the Blazers have to make if it's on the table. Barbosa is explosive as hell, he has come up big in the playoffs before (mostly against the Lakers), and, *hell...his slowness on defense would only equate to more blocks for Oden.*


1st- Hardly a much superior player, and to some not the best longterm player or best fit of the 2 either.

2nd- That would also equate to more fouls for a guy that will already have trouble enough staying on the floor, you never want to intentionally put your bigs in defensive situations like that. It's like the Nuggets, they suck on D and let people get to the rim seemingly at will, while they lead the league in blocks as a team and Camby lead it individually that didn't translate to good defense.


----------



## MAS RipCity

im warming up to the trade, just don't trade outlaw and try to get a future 1st back from them


----------



## Balian

Oldmangrouch said:


> Dude, all this Jack hate is getting downright silly.
> 
> JJ has a skill that is badly underappreciated: he goes to the hole strong, draws fouls, and is an assassin at the FT line. It isn't Jack's fault that the team mistakenly thought he was a PG. The same fool who came up with that idea also thought Webster was better than Paul or Williams. :lol:
> 
> Save the animosity for Nash!


You mean if he does not step on the sideline first ... he goes to the hole, jump passing into turnovers or into facial blocks strong? At best, Jack is a mediocre backup combo guard in the league.


----------



## Bwatcher

Thanks Damian N. Its good to have an "outside" opinion.


----------



## Dissonance

A steal for the Blazers? I would've never thought the Suns could get that high of a pick for him (if this is true). That alone would make it worth it already. Then add in a young player like Webster, and the filler? I want this trade to go down. I'm sick of Barbosa, and his streaky shooting and disappearances/struggles against good defensive teams. Which nullifies him, because he gives the team almost nothing on defense.


----------



## Entity

All I can say is, if we give up Webster _and_ a lottery pick for him, he'd better be of permanent starter quality. None of this sometimes-backup nonsense.


----------



## BBert

Entity said:


> All I can say is, if we give up Webster _and_ a lottery pick for him, he'd better be of permanent starter quality. None of this sometimes-backup nonsense.


And he's not. So we won't. Barbosa isn't the PG we need; he's not going to start ahead of Roy; and I am confident Rudy will be better than him within 2 years. I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone reading how Barbosa is supposedly worth Martell, a lottery pick, PLUS another player.

Thank you "Dissonance19" for a dose of sanity.

The draft can't get here soon enough for me.


----------



## LameR

MAS RipCity said:


> im warming up to the trade, just don't trade outlaw and try to get a future 1st back from them


Wow, you reallllly want to rob them.


----------



## BlazerFan22

ProZach said:


> So you'd just rather get a guy who would play the same role as Rudy, give up some of our young, valuable assets, AND wear out Roy even more by making him have to bring the ball up against smaller, quicker PG's, just so we can get a combo-guard who fills none of our needs... of course it matters! Who are you, Isiah Thomas???


I'm not saying Roy would be playing PG or being gaurded by smaller gaurds. Odom brings the ball up for the Lakers does that mean he's being gaurded by smaller PG? The Celtics won the championship and rando isen't a true PG. I'm not saying this deal is good. I'm just bring up the fact that in todays NBA you really don't need a true PG to win if you have a guy with PG skills. I also don't believe we Know the full trade.


----------



## LameR

BlazerFan22 said:


> I'm not saying Roy would be playing PG or being gaurded by smaller gaurds. Odom brings the ball up for the Lakers does that mean he's being gaurded by smaller PG? The Celtics won the championship and rando isen't a true PG. I'm not saying this deal is good. I'm just bring up the fact that in todays NBA you really don't need a true PG to win if you have a guy with PG skills. I also don't believe we Know the full trade.


It's Rondo, and if Rondo isn't a PG then what the hell is he? He definitely isn't a SG. Is Rondo a center in disguise?


----------



## Utherhimo

trade outlaw instead


----------



## STOMP

ProZach said:


> Funny, I was just listening to 710 ESPN radio down here in L.A., and they're talking about the Clippers maybe offering their lottery pick (7 i think) and a bench player for Barbosa.


Seems like someone's agent might be calling reporters to stir the pot about interest in their client. Maybe KP is finding out about this deal the same time we are? 

Overall, I don't really think that highly of Barbosa. The best thing I can say about him is that he is a talented athlete and scorer and Portland wants a big time athlete of his size. The worst thing about my impression of him is that he seems mentally weak. That he wilts under pressure. Maybe I'd be for it if Nate made him earn his court time based on his defensive work/results. But like others, I see Portland as giving up too much. Take off the #13 to even it up. 

With Barbosa gone, who is the Suns backup PG? Diaw? Grant Hill? DJ Strawberry? Worts and all Jarrett Jack sounds like an attractive option if I'm Terry Porter. And of course they'd also get Martell as the primary back up both swing spots... geez looking at their roster the talent level dropoff is steeeep after the top 7 guys. This deal gives them two rotation level guys for the price of one... I think both would average 20+ MPG next year for the Suns. 

STOMP


----------



## Five5even

i wouldnt be shocked to see us deal with Phoenix considering we have been a trading partner each of the last 2 draft years. However, i dont know if it will be for Barbosa.

I think if we could get Leandro for Martell, #13 and a player like sergio, mcbob or jack i would probably go ahead and do it. If it involves Outlaw i probably dont pull the trigger.

Then again, 5 years from now we may wish we had Webster back too...


----------



## zagsfan20

Dissonance19 said:


> A steal for the Blazers? I would've never thought the Suns could get that high of a pick for him (if this is true). That alone would make it worth it already. Then add in a young player like Webster, and the filler? I want this trade to go down. I'm sick of Barbosa, and his streaky shooting and disappearances/struggles against good defensive teams. Which nullifies him, because he gives the team almost nothing on defense.


Ahhhh your just still on an emotional high from getting jousted out of the playoffs in the first round.


----------



## BuckW4GM

Oldmangrouch said:


> Lastly, comparing Webster to Jermaine is a red herring. Jermaine had tremendous raw physical talent, but needed to develop his game. Webster is an exceedingly average talent who was drafted for his "skill"...shooting the ball. That skill proved to be very ordinary, leaving Webster as nothing more than a journeyman who will get too many chances just because he was drafted waaaay too high. If Webster busts his butt to improve his defense, his ceiling is Rick Fox. Whoop-dee-diddle-do. Jack has a better chance of coming back to haunt us than Webster.


you really summed my thoughts on webster. i've always compared webster's ceiling to that of george mcloud, a journeyman outside shooting threat, but not much of anything else. i like your rick fox comparison too, and if webster continues to improve his defense, fox might be a better comparison.

this is why i can't understand those who would rather keep webster than outlaw. i think the only thing webster does slightly better than outlaw is outside shooting, and he's not even that much better at it than outlaw. i can understand if people think we would get more in return if we trade outlaw than webster (which i think is absolutely true). but there really is no doubt in my mind who is the better player right now. even though outlaw is a couple years older, i also think his potential is higher than webster.


----------



## MrJayremmie

> A steal for the Blazers? I would've never thought the Suns could get that high of a pick for him (if this is true). That alone would make it worth it already. Then add in a young player like Webster, and the filler? I want this trade to go down. I'm sick of Barbosa, and his streaky shooting and disappearances/struggles against good defensive teams. Which nullifies him, because he gives the team almost nothing on defense.


thank you. I'd rather use our 13, Webster and someone else to move up and get a player in the draft.


----------



## hasoos

I have read several rumors online, and I am sure that once a team gets drift of what is offered, if they feel they can one up the offer, they will. One rumor, which makes some sense, is that NY would trade for him, so D'Antoni could have some personnel there that know his system. 

The other rumor I had read is that Jack is on the Cavs radar...


----------



## Yega1979

Dissonance19 said:


> A steal for the Blazers? I would've never thought the Suns could get that high of a pick for him (if this is true). That alone would make it worth it already. Then add in a young player like Webster, and the filler? I want this trade to go down. I'm sick of Barbosa, and his streaky shooting and disappearances/struggles against good defensive teams. Which nullifies him, because he gives the team almost nothing on defense.


The Blazers would be better off going after Westbrook, because he can play defense as well. But Barbosa may be a better fit in Portland than on the Suns. In Portland he could play next to Roy, wouldn't be required to run a half court offense or guard opposing SGs. He's lack of defense and passing skills doesn't make him an ideal canidate, but I think #13 and Jack would be an upgrade for Portland if we can't find a better deal.


----------



## chairman

Dissonance19 said:


> A steal for the Blazers? I would've never thought the Suns could get that high of a pick for him (if this is true). That alone would make it worth it already. Then add in a young player like Webster, and the filler? I want this trade to go down. I'm sick of Barbosa, and his streaky shooting and disappearances/struggles against good defensive teams. Which nullifies him, because he gives the team almost nothing on defense.


Excellent post. Some people like to use the "HOMER" phrase for the purpose of taking a shot at others. Like somehow we get blinded by being a huge fan. Well I think it works both ways. Watching your team play every minute of every game we tend to remember all the screw ups a players makes. By contrast we only watch players on other teams play a few games a year. We don't focus on their deficiencies as much, and we are also influenced by only the good highlights from ESPN.

My point is we tend to lean towards "the grass is always greener" logic. I think we all agree that other than "the big 3" all our players can be traded for the right player. Is Barbosa that player? Too close to call for me.


----------



## Balian

chairman said:


> Excellent post. Some people like to use the "HOMER" phrase for the purpose of taking a shot at others. Like somehow we get blinded by being a huge fan. Well I think it works both ways. Watching your team play every minute of every game we tend to remember all the screw ups a players makes. By contrast we only watch players on other teams play a few games a year. We don't focus on their deficiencies as much, and we are also influenced by only the good highlights from ESPN.
> 
> My point is we tend to lean towards "the grass is always greener" logic. I think we all agree that other than "the big 3" all our players can be traded for the right player. Is Barbosa that player? Too close to call for me.


Barbosa for Webster/#13/filler? Not that close, my friend. You better off trading up to get either Augustin or Westbrook. Since everyone here seem to agree that Barbosa is not a "point guard", Rudy is a better and bigger version of Barbosa.


----------



## chairman

Balian said:


> Barbosa for Webster/#13/filler? Not that close, my friend. You better off trading up to get either Augustin or Westbrook. Since everyone here seem to agree that Barbosa is not a "point guard", Rudy is a better and bigger version of Barbosa.


Well I agree with you, but after 12 pages on the subject I was just giving those with the other opinion the benefit of the doubt.

But interesting that you brought up Westbrook and Augustin since they are two extremes. I have a lot of close UCLA die hard friends that love Westbrook but do not yet think he has shown NBA PG skills. They compare his PG skills to Barbosa. Augustine on the other hand has awesome PG skills but lacks NBA defensive abilities (Which is Westbrooks strength)


----------



## MrJayremmie

^Barbosa offense (but with a PG mentality in which he understands he needs to play PG and embraces it) with massive defensive skills = win!

Great attitude and being like 20 years old is a plus.

Note: Difference on offense is Westbrooks PG mentality and Barbosa's jumpshot.


----------



## NateBishop3

BuckW4GM said:


> you really summed my thoughts on webster. i've always compared webster's ceiling to that of george mcloud, a journeyman outside shooting threat, but not much of anything else. i like your rick fox comparison too, and if webster continues to improve his defense, fox might be a better comparison.
> 
> this is why i can't understand those who would rather keep webster than outlaw. i think the only thing webster does slightly better than outlaw is outside shooting, and he's not even that much better at it than outlaw. i can understand if people think we would get more in return if we trade outlaw than webster (which i think is absolutely true). but there really is no doubt in my mind who is the better player right now. even though outlaw is a couple years older, i also think his potential is higher than webster.


George McCloud? Are you serious? You guys are grossly underestimating Webster's shooting ability. McCloud was a spot up shooter. Mobility definitely wasn't his biggest strength. Webster has the ability to come off screens, he can pull up and he can shoot on the move. I think he's actually a better shooter when he's moving. You're comparing him to guys who liked to camp on the perimeter and wait for a pass. While I've seen Webster do just that, it's definitely not his biggest strength. 

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RMVXnJDBtnI&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RMVXnJDBtnI&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

George McCloud?


----------



## Spoolie Gee

Barbosa is a slightly better version of Jack. They have VERY similar games. both like to shoot the ball, do a poor job running the team and make total bone-headed mistakes for no apparent reason. I think Barbosa is basically what Jack will be in his prime. Giving up Webster and a lotto pick for him would be a mistake IMO.


----------



## BuckW4GM

NateBishop3 said:


> George McCloud? Are you serious? You guys are grossly underestimating Webster's shooting ability. McCloud was a spot up shooter. Mobility definitely wasn't his biggest strength. Webster has the ability to come off screens, he can pull up and he can shoot on the move. I think he's actually a better shooter when he's moving. *You're comparing him to guys who liked to camp on the perimeter and wait for a pass. While I've seen Webster do just that, it's definitely not his biggest strength. *


i'm absolutely serious. i don't doubt that webster has a lot of offensive skills. i think almost all nba players have a lot of offensiv skills. whether they can effective use it during games is entirely a different matter. sure, webster can score off the dribble, post up, pull up here and there, what nba players doesn't do that once in a long while? the overwhelming majority of webster's offense is spotting up and go off screen.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/x8G7nZy_GG8&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/x8G7nZy_GG8&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

mccloud played 13 seasons in the nba. in his best season, he averaged 19 ppg. i'd be quite shock if webster ever averaged that many points in a season.


----------



## DrewFix

BuckW4GM said:


> i'm absolutely serious. i don't doubt that webster has a lot of offensive skills. i think almost all nba players have a lot of offensiv skills. whether they can effective use it during games is entirely a different matter. sure, webster can score off the dribble, post up, pull up here and there, what nba players doesn't do that once in a long while? the overwhelming majority of webster's offense is spotting up and go off screen.
> 
> 
> mccloud played 13 seasons in the nba. in his best season, he averaged 19 ppg. i'd be quite shock if webster ever averaged that many points in a season.


wow. i really have no more that i can say after that.


----------



## Kmurph

I for one, was happy to see Barrett shoot down this rumour (not to say that it still couldn't happen though)...I don't think that Barbosa is a good fit with this team...I think\hope there are better deals out there to be had...


----------



## B_&_B

from Chad Ford:



> One potential deal that could have an interesting impact on both teams? Sounds like the Suns and Clippers are talking about a deal that would send the No. 7 pick and Corey Maggette to Phoenix for Barbosa and the No. 15 pick.
> 
> That deal only works if Maggette decides not to opt out of his contract this week. If he opts out, Maggette couldn't be signed-and-traded until mid-July.


----------



## Crimson the Cat

Hm. I could see Maggette taking a chance and doing this. Good move for him. Especially if PHX can get Ford still.


----------



## Kmurph

BuckW4GM said:


> you really summed my thoughts on webster. i've always compared webster's ceiling to that of george mcloud, a journeyman outside shooting threat, but not much of anything else. i like your rick fox comparison too, and if webster continues to improve his defense, fox might be a better comparison.
> 
> this is why i can't understand those who would rather keep webster than outlaw. i think the only thing webster does slightly better than outlaw is outside shooting, and he's not even that much better at it than outlaw. i can understand if people think we would get more in return if we trade outlaw than webster (which i think is absolutely true). but there really is no doubt in my mind who is the better player right now. even though outlaw is a couple years older, i also think his potential is higher than webster.



I love how Webster = Rick Fox but Outlaw = Tracy McGrady?

Webster was close to performing at the same level as Outlaw in his THIRD year, compared to Outlaw's FIFTH year, and his statistics are significantly better than Outlaw's during his 3rd year and better than Outlaw statistics in his fourth year as well....

I understand that Outlaw had a "breakout" year...which, for a player in his 5th year was nice to finally see...but to categorize Outlaw as a better player or prospect than Webster is not entirely fair...

Webster is 22, Outlaw is 24...Outlaw has had FIVE years to turn into a slightly better version of Webster in his THIRD year, and their statistics are not that far apart IMO...

Outlaw 13.3ppg 4.6rpg 1.3apg 43.3%FG in 26.7min

Webster 10.7ppg 3.9rpg 1.2apg 42.4%FG in 28.4min

and I maintain that Webster..THIS YEAR in particular showed himself to be a much more versatile player when he was on the floor...His defense was better than Outlaw's...He was a much more aggressive rebounder and he started to drive to the basket more, instead of standing behing the 3pt line looking for a pass...

I don't think that Outlaw is anywhere near as useful if he isn't scoring...which of course was all he was really asked to do...come off the bench and score...He wasn't asked to defend, to rebound, to be the sharpshooter to keep defenses honest when they doubled on LA or Roy...No, he was just asked to come in and score...which he did well, but when he was struggling to score\shoot...the team was better off w\o him in the game IMO....

Yes, Webster still needs to improve his ballhandling & work on driving to the basket...two areas which he is comitted to concentrating on this year in the offseason...I am glad that Outlaw has comitted himself to working out in the summer THIS year, Webster has done that EVERY year since he has been here...

I think both will be decent to good players...Outlaw IMO will likely be a 14-18ppg scorer, flash some athletic plays here and there on offense & defense and little else...Webster IMO, has the ability to be that long range threat (a key NBA skill many teams lack IMO), and flash athletic ability in driving to the rim, and has the ability to be a better defender, a better rebounder...just an overall much more versatile player...

I would much rather have a guy like Webster on this team than a guy like Outlaw, if I had to choose b\t the two....


----------



## hasoos

Kmurph said:


> I love how Webster = Rick Fox but Outlaw = Tracy McGrady?
> 
> Webster was close to performing at the same level as Outlaw in his THIRD year, compared to Outlaw's FIFTH year, and his statistics are significantly better than Outlaw's during his 3rd year and better than Outlaw statistics in his fourth year as well....
> 
> I understand that Outlaw had a "breakout" year...which, for a player in his 5th year was nice to finally see...but to categorize Outlaw as a better player or prospect than Webster is not entirely fair...
> 
> Webster is 22, Outlaw is 24...Outlaw has had FIVE years to turn into a slightly better version of Webster in his THIRD year, and their statistics are not that far apart IMO...
> 
> Outlaw 13.3ppg 4.6rpg 1.3apg 43.3%FG in 26.7min
> 
> Webster 10.7ppg 3.9rpg 1.2apg 42.4%FG in 28.4min
> 
> and I maintain that Webster..THIS YEAR in particular showed himself to be a much more versatile player when he was on the floor...His defense was better than Outlaw's...He was a much more aggressive rebounder and he started to drive to the basket more, instead of standing behing the 3pt line looking for a pass...
> 
> I don't think that Outlaw is anywhere near as useful if he isn't scoring...which of course was all he was really asked to do...come off the bench and score...He wasn't asked to defend, to rebound, to be the sharpshooter to keep defenses honest when they doubled on LA or Roy...No, he was just asked to come in and score...which he did well, but when he was struggling to score\shoot...the team was better off w\o him in the game IMO....
> 
> Yes, Webster still needs to improve his ballhandling & work on driving to the basket...two areas which he is comitted to concentrating on this year in the offseason...I am glad that Outlaw has comitted himself to working out in the summer THIS year, Webster has done that EVERY year since he has been here...
> 
> I think both will be decent to good players...Outlaw IMO will likely be a 14-18ppg scorer, flash some athletic plays here and there on offense & defense and little else...Webster IMO, has the ability to be that long range threat (a key NBA skill many teams lack IMO), and flash athletic ability in driving to the rim, and has the ability to be a better defender, a better rebounder...just an overall much more versatile player...
> 
> I would much rather have a guy like Webster on this team than a guy like Outlaw, if I had to choose b\t the two....



I agree. I would also point out there were several games this year where Webster did a very nice job containing a major small forward on the other team, only to be pulled off that player late in the game and have them go off on the Blazers late, because Nate swapped somebody else on to them to finish the game.


----------



## MrJayremmie

> I love how Webster = Rick Fox but Outlaw = Tracy McGrady?
> 
> Webster was close to performing at the same level as Outlaw in his THIRD year, compared to Outlaw's FIFTH year, and his statistics are significantly better than Outlaw's during his 3rd year and better than Outlaw statistics in his fourth year as well....
> 
> I understand that Outlaw had a "breakout" year...which, for a player in his 5th year was nice to finally see...but to categorize Outlaw as a better player or prospect than Webster is not entirely fair...
> 
> Webster is 22, Outlaw is 24...Outlaw has had FIVE years to turn into a slightly better version of Webster in his THIRD year, and their statistics are not that far apart IMO...
> 
> Outlaw 13.3ppg 4.6rpg 1.3apg 43.3%FG in 26.7min
> 
> Webster 10.7ppg 3.9rpg 1.2apg 42.4%FG in 28.4min
> 
> and I maintain that Webster..THIS YEAR in particular showed himself to be a much more versatile player when he was on the floor...His defense was better than Outlaw's...He was a much more aggressive rebounder and he started to drive to the basket more, instead of standing behing the 3pt line looking for a pass...
> 
> I don't think that Outlaw is anywhere near as useful if he isn't scoring...which of course was all he was really asked to do...come off the bench and score...He wasn't asked to defend, to rebound, to be the sharpshooter to keep defenses honest when they doubled on LA or Roy...No, he was just asked to come in and score...which he did well, but when he was struggling to score\shoot...the team was better off w\o him in the game IMO....
> 
> Yes, Webster still needs to improve his ballhandling & work on driving to the basket...two areas which he is comitted to concentrating on this year in the offseason...I am glad that Outlaw has comitted himself to working out in the summer THIS year, Webster has done that EVERY year since he has been here...
> 
> I think both will be decent to good players...Outlaw IMO will likely be a 14-18ppg scorer, flash some athletic plays here and there on offense & defense and little else...Webster IMO, has the ability to be that long range threat (a key NBA skill many teams lack IMO), and flash athletic ability in driving to the rim, and has the ability to be a better defender, a better rebounder...just an overall much more versatile player...
> 
> I would much rather have a guy like Webster on this team than a guy like Outlaw, if I had to choose b\t the two....


I totally agree with this man. Really nice post. 

The one part that is iffy for me was your last statement.



> I would much rather have a guy like Webster on this team than a guy like Outlaw, if I had to choose b\t the two....


I just couldn't choose. They are really both huge parts of this team. They both bring different things to the table, and i'm really comfortable with a MArtell/Travis rotation at the SF spot. They are young, and as long as they continue to improve, i think that Webster can turn into what we need at the SF spot, and Outlaw will be a great bench player!


----------



## nikolokolus

Choosing between Martell and Travis is kind of a draw for me talent-wise, but when you throw in Martell's upcoming caphold and Travis' very reasonable contract, it's easy to decide -- I'll take Outlaw.


----------



## andalusian

I have to admit that if I had to choose between Outlaw and Webster - I would choose Outlaw, only because of the following:

1. I think he is much tougher mentally than Webster - things get to Webster and he can get moody and be in a funk - so I do not trust him to really overcome the rough spots - where Outlaw seems to just shrug it off and go along. I think I have heard Roy saying something about that as well when asked what he likes about Travis.

2. I think it is a lot easier to find someone that has Webster's skill set than the raw, sheer, crazy athletic ability of Outlaw - Outlaw can create a shot for himself against anyone, Webster needs a lot of pick and rolls and the team to work for him to get it going - this leads me to believe that Outlaw has the ability to bail you out of a tough situation all by himself when the rest of the team is not hitting on all cylinders every once in a while.

The entire Martel is only in his 3rd year vs. Outlaw's 5th does not really matter to me much - since we all knew that Outlaw was a major project when he was drafted - and they both have the same amount of time under a coaching staff that can really develop young players.


----------

