# The difference between Kirk and Jamal according to Skiles



## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

> Are you hopeful that backcourt will break out?
> “Of course, I am hopeful. Kirk, I don't get too concerned about his shooting right now because number one, he is a rookie, number two, it is late in the season. He does so much for us. He is all over the place guarding. Last night he was guarding 4 or 5 guys on the same possession, being active and helping. He is our best defensive player. He brings so much energy, I don't get too concerned about him.”



This is in essence why Skiles and Paxson for that matter are so high on Kirk and not on Jamal. Kirk can have a bad shooting night and still have an enormous effect on the game. When the shot is not there for Jamal everything else suffers. Question is can Jamal improve on that or is this mostly a matter of style of play differences between the two?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IntheBlinkofaDeng</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> This is in essence why Skiles and Paxson for that matter are so high on Kirk and not on Jamal. Kirk can have a bad shooting night and still have an enormous effect on the game. When the shot is not there for Jamal everything else suffers. Question is can Jamal improve on that or is this mostly a matter of style of play differences between the two?


Thats funny, I didn't see Skiles even say anything about Crawford.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

At least this isn't another one of those Kirk vs. Jamal threads. That would really bite.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

The question was about our backcourt yet Skiles proceeds to rave about Kirk despite a bad shooting night but does not even mention Crawford. I remember an old saying if you can't say something nice then don't say anything at all. Seems like that is what is going on here.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IntheBlinkofaDeng</b>!
> The question was about our backcourt yet Skiles proceeds to rave about Kirk despite a bad shooting night but does not even mention Crawford. I remember an old saying if you can't say something nice then don't say anything at all. Seems like that is what is going on here.


or he chose this particular instance to say some nice things about Kirk. I guess people will read what they want to read.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Kirk v. Jamal, part 114


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Phil Jackson On the Bulls' play:
> * "I'm impressed with their guard play* and with how Chandler performed tonight. He played a steady game defensively. He caused some of our passing to be suspect at times. We kept them in the game most of tonight with our turnovers and inconsistent play."


blinkofabasghetti: so just because skiles doesn't mention jamal in his answer how is that pointing out the difference between them. i think you are reading into it a little. 

besides, this jamal vs. kirk. stuff is so ancient at this point dontcha think? 

hey, phil was impressed with them both.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Mizenkay you are right. It is just I am so frustrated by Crawford. Obviously there is talent there but not much else. 4 years into the league and he is still skinny as a rail, basketball IQ is still really low, and outside of putting big scoring numbers up about every 5th game or so what does he bring to the table? His mentality as a basketball players is just something I can't seem to get over. Way too nonchalant for me.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I agree with Ace20004u on this one. Skiles talked about Kirk and nothing was said about Jamal. This thread is a real stretch.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IntheBlinkofaDeng</b>!
> Mizenkay you are right. It is just I am so frustrated by Crawford. Obviously there is talent there but not much else. 4 years into the league and he is still skinny as a rail, basketball IQ is still really low, and outside of putting big scoring numbers up about every 5th game or so what does he bring to the table? His mentality as a basketball players is just something I can't seem to get over. Way too nonchalant for me.


Crawford has added probably 10-12lbs of muscle last offseason. Crawford was mentioned as one of the players that showed up at the Berto and worked more than anyone else during the offseason. Previous offseasons were spent working with Gary Payton in Seattle. Crawford came back from his ACL injury early. Crawford is one of the few Bulls who appreciates the history of the NBA and loves watching old tapes of the NBA, in fact, he wears his headband in tribute to Slick Watts. I think Jamal has a very good basketball IQ. I do think sometimes he gets frustrated when he looks out on the floor and sees AD, Linton Johnson, Ronald Dupree, and JYD. Whats he suppossed to do? Sure, he trys to make more happen than he should but thats the hand he has been dealt. I'd bet hard cash that if you transplanted Jamal onto a roster that had better NBA talent he would thrive. He would look great in Miami, or Cleveland, or even the Clippers. And even when Jamal doesn't score he generally helps out with his assists and such. I think it is easy to forget that Jamal isn't a finished product yet. I think Jamal is a LOT less "non chalant" than you give him credit for. Haven't you ever seen him talking with Skiles or yelling at players to get into the right spots? Or talking to someone after a missed defensive assignment? Saying the right things to the media? I would guess that his frustration at playing on a really BAD team is the only thing that would ever make him appear "non chalant".


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: The difference between Kirk and Jamal according to Skiles*



> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats funny, I didn't see Skiles even say anything about Crawford.


I know. Jamal should be embarrassed that all those superlatives are mentioned and his name doesn't even come up to take hold of _one_ of them.


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## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

if hinrich is the bulls best defensive player, how come he didn't guard kobe?? i can only think of two reasons....

1) he isn't that great defensively
2) skiles is a moron
3) jamal is better defender than hinrich

I know many of you don't think its option #3....so it should be 1 or 2. take your pick....

you know whats another difference between hinrich and jamal??? jamal has the potential to be a superstar in this league while hinrich can only be at best a good point guard. i dont see him ever being as good as marbury, kidd, payton (in prime), davis, nash, etc...i think he will at best be an andre miller type of player....now, is a miller really someone to rave about???


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## willieblack (Jun 5, 2002)

Yep, and as a Bulls fan I'm embarrassed that our coach has the nerve to spend superlatives on any one player when the "team" still looks like a big heaping pile of steaming you know what. You know the whole we win as team we loose as a team...:|


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> if hinrich is the bulls best defensive player, how come he didn't guard kobe?? i can only think of two reasons....
> 
> 1) he isn't that great defensively
> ...


option #4.) Jamal has more size than Kirk who is only about 6'2" and therefore is a better option to put on the taller Kobe.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> option #4.) Jamal has more size than Kirk who is only about 6'2" and therefore is a better option to put on the taller Kobe.


http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/lottery_vitals_03.pdf

6'2.75" w/o shoes, 6'3.75" w/ shoes, 6'6" wingspan


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>willieblack</b>!
> Yep, and as a Bulls fan I'm embarrassed that our coach has the nerve to spend superlatives on any one player when the "team" still looks like a big heaping pile of steaming you know what. You know the whole we win as team we loose as a team...:|


Good point!


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Last night he was guarding 4 or 5 guys on the same possession


WOW 

I knew he was a good defender, but I didn't realize he was *6X* the defender Crawford is...


:laugh:


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/lottery_vitals_03.pdf
> ...


How tall is he in Lizzy's shoes?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> 
> 
> Good point!


Not really True.


You still gotta encourage your team for individual jobs well done...


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## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

jamal is maybe an inch or two taller than hinrich....

so what your telling me is that those two inches matter thaat much??? for a guy that can't play a lick of defense (according to many of you), he is now suppose to guard one of the best offensive players in the nba??? because of that 1 inch or 2??

and since jamal was doing such a bad job of guarding kobe, why not make the switch???? like i said, either skiles is an idiot or hinrichs d is overrated....


many of you like to criticize jamal for his d on kobe...but hinrich would have done the same or maybe worst.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Not only are they fairly close in height (give or take an inch), JC and Hinrich are the same weight, too.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/chi/roster

Jamal Crawford SG 6-5 190 
Kirk Hinrich PG 6-3 190 

So one of these guys is somehow too light to fight through picks. Explain that one to me.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> jamal is maybe an inch or two taller than hinrich....
> 
> so what your telling me is that those two inches matter thaat much??? for a guy that can't play a lick of defense (according to many of you), he is now suppose to guard one of the best offensive players in the nba??? because of that 1 inch or 2??
> ...


Actually Tyson Chandler is taller than both of them. He should have guarded Kobe. Skiles is an idiot.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/lottery_vitals_03.pdf
> ...


Not that this matters, but I'm confused as to why Kirk didn't get listed at 6'4", and Wade at 6'5" for that matter. I thought NBA players were given their listed heights with their shoes on.


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## robert60446 (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually Tyson Chandler is taller than both of them. He should have guarded Kobe. Skiles is an idiot.


But Tyson jumps for every fake…


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## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

where are all the skiles supporters??? how come you don't respond to my questions??? and what about the ones that think hinrich is the next artest defensively???? 

why didn't he guard kobe??? we all know height doesn't matter since jamal and hinrich are only an inch or two apart....why????

its gotta be that skiles is a moron or hinrichs d is overrated....

awaiting your reply....


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>robert60446</b>!
> 
> 
> But Tyson jumps for every fake…


yes but he screams and kicks his legs when he rebounds. It balances out.


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## robert60446 (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> where are all the skiles supporters??? how come you don't respond to my questions??? and what about the ones that think hinrich is the next artest defensively????
> 
> why didn't he guard kobe??? we all know height doesn't matter since jamal and hinrich are only an inch or two apart....why????
> ...


Jc76ers, you are very angry man…:laugh:


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> where are all the skiles supporters??? how come you don't respond to my questions??? and what about the ones that think hinrich is the next artest defensively????
> 
> why didn't he guard kobe??? we all know height doesn't matter since jamal and hinrich are only an inch or two apart....why????
> ...


Not awaiting any of yours chief. So if 1) you're a Skiles supporter than 2) you automatically have to be a Hinrich supporter as well? Who exactly called Hinrich the next Artest defensively?

I'll take a shot. Point guards usually guard point guards. Jamal is our shooting guard so I'd venture to guess that he'd guard the opposing shooting guard. Just a guess. Now if you have some other agenda to your postings, there are 114 other threads on the subject so go pick one


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> The foul-filled game featured nine lead changes and eight ties. The Bulls were only down 74-72 with 5 minutes 25 seconds remaining.
> 
> That's when Kobe Bryant, who led all scorers with 35 points, took over.
> 
> ...


ok, let's "blame" gill - would that make everyone feel better?? 

hinrich's D is not overrated. he was too busy guarding 4 people at a time according to skiles.

man, why are we even bothering with this at this point.


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## willieblack (Jun 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Not really True.
> ...


As a coach heading a team in termoil (yes termoil) that type of encouragement would serve the "team" better if done behind closed doors and away from the press. Sometimes I believe that the speculation that will come from an interview like this does more harm than good to fan attitude and support that the team may want from it's fans. Respectfully.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Someone tell me what exactly does Crawford bring to the team as a SG other than scoring the ball? He can't defend the position, he takes really bad shots and shoots a very low percentage from the field? There are plenty of people who could score at least that many points and more efficiently, not to mention defend better if put in same situation JC is in. I honestly believe that.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IntheBlinkofaDeng</b>!
> Someone tell me what exactly does Crawford bring to the team as a SG other than scoring the ball? He can't defend the position, he takes really bad shots and shoots a very low percentage from the field? There are plenty of people who could score at least that many points and more efficiently, not to mention defend better if put in same situation JC is in. I honestly believe that.


Ding, ding, ding.....

:starwars:


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Lost in this commotion is the fact that guarding Gary Payton, as I assume Kirk did, isn't exactly taking the night off on defense.


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## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

come on guys, we all know that is a huge group of you here think that are skiles supporters as well as think hinrichs d is so great. i'm not saying all of you, but most of you. 

i brought up a situation where i thought there was some inconsistency and i wanted to know why? I think many of you are just so into believing the hype about hinrichs d that you don't see the inconsistencies...

about the pg guarding pg....if you have a shut-down defender in hinrich, wouldn't most coaches want him to guard the player that is tearing them apart?? i mean, its still a guard guarding a guard...i can see your point if its a center. but no...i don't buy your reasoning of PG guarding pg...just my opinion.


and mizenkay....that was a typical response for someone without a response. ...."oh why are we even talking about this now"

so its okay for someone to bash jamal, while when i say something negative about hinrichs d, then its "why are we even talking about this now"


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## robert60446 (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> come on guys, we all know that is a huge group of you here think that are skiles supporters as well as think hinrichs d is so great. i'm not saying all of you, but most of you.


Yes we all know, so what is your real name Jc76ers? Let me guess…Truthhurts?:laugh:


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> 
> and mizenkay....that was a typical response for someone without a response. ...."oh why are we even talking about this now"
> 
> so its okay for someone to bash jamal, while when i say something negative about hinrichs d, then its "why are we even talking about this now"


um, noooo. because as superdave pointed out there are about 114 zillion other kh vs. jc threads on this board since the season began and it is OLD AND TIRED at this point. and i am frustrated that we are still debating it. there are what, 17 games left. you are a little late to the party if you really want to know what i think and if you care to research it a little, i am on the record (ask ace2004u) about wanting to resign jamal in the off season. i am just tired of the moaning and whining. 

have a great day...


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## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

i see your point mizenkay, but why is it that its okay for people to open threads everyday about bashing jamal in some sort of way....you should tell them to quit doing it too...you all know who the typical bashers are...

off to lunch now...


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> i see your point mizenkay, but why is it that its okay for people to open threads everyday about bashing jamal in some sort of way....you should tell them to quit doing it too...you all know who the typical bashers are...
> 
> off to lunch now...


cool. and you'll have to ask intheblinkofadeng aka basghetti that one...and i called him out on it.


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## robert60446 (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> ....you should tell them to quit doing it too...you all know who the typical bashers are...


We are in USA. It’s ok to have different opinions here…Example: Crawford sucks!:laugh:


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> come on guys, we all know that is a huge group of you here think that are skiles supporters as well as think hinrichs d is so great. i'm not saying all of you, but most of you.
> 
> i brought up a situation where i thought there was some inconsistency and i wanted to know why? I think many of you are just so into believing the hype about hinrichs d that you don't see the inconsistencies...
> ...


Actually, Hinrich did gurad Kobe for certain times during the game. Mostly on switches and such. Here's the thing and I'll preface this by stating that I have no proof for the following assertion: If Crawford were guarding Gary Payton, I firmly believe that the lakers would have gone to Payton in the post on most every possesion. As it was, Hinrich played pretty well on Payton for the most part. I remember more than a few instances of Payton using pump fakes and multiple dribble fakes to get Hinrich to bite and he didn't. Kirk stayed on his feet and kept his feet moving. Also, regarding Kobe, I believe it was Gill who primarily was on him, especially down the stretch. Kobe simply got hot and nobdody is gonna stop him when he gets going.

JC is a pretty bad on the ball defender. I think every coach and scout in the league knows this. Watch the games. You'll see whomever JC is guarding start running him thru multiple screens and before you know it his man is getting a pretty wide open jumper or is getting the ball in a position to get into the lane and break the defense down further. Hinrich gets run off screens also yet you can see that he fights thru them and sticks with his man to a far greater degree than Jamal does.

I'm not getting what all the hub-bub is about. Kirk Hinrich is a better defender than Jamal Crawford. So what? They're both Chicago Bulls and until such point in time that one or both of them aren't - I probably won't care too much one way or the other. I simply hope that Jamal works on his strength this summer which will help him to become a better defender and I hope Kirk works on his outside game because we're gonna need it.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> JC is a pretty bad on the ball defender. I think every coach and scout in the league knows this. Watch the games. You'll see whomever JC is guarding start running him thru multiple screens and before you know it his man is getting a pretty wide open jumper or is getting the ball in a position to get into the lane and break the defense down further.


Word.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> So one of these guys is somehow too light to fight through picks. Explain that one to me.


Mass distribution and core strength. But strength per se is secondary to the two main factors in fighting through picks, which are:

1. desire
2. intelligence


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> 
> about the pg guarding pg....if you have a shut-down defender in hinrich, wouldn't most coaches want him to guard the player that is tearing them apart??


No. If you have a shut-down defender at PG, you have him try to shut down the opposing team's PG. All good offense starts with the point guard. Shut him down, limit him, you limit the team's entire offense. And, as mentioned earlier, Kirk was guarding *Gary Payton.* Do you not realize this?


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

You guys want the video of Skiles saying this stuff? I have the postgame recorded, but i forgot to encode it. He praises Hinrich a bit more.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

I think the reality is that we all want better players on the floor than what we currently have, including the sacred Cow ...errr, I mean Bull, Kirk Hinrich.

I got no problem if the entrie team was traded and we ended up with better players replacing them. The problem isn't whether we should IMHO, it's whether we can.

Would you trade Jamal for Paul Pierce - hell yeah. Then you'd wake up and find that we are only offer Darvin Ham for Crawford. Does that make the Bulls better? No

Would you take Yao Ming for Tyson Chandler - hell yeah, then you'd wake up and find that we are only offered Daruis Songalia. No thanks.

It's all about our option for improving the team.

Would you rather resign Jamal Crawford or watch Ronald Dupree as your starting SG?

That's the problem. Last year Paxson was faced with signing Pippen or Posey. He chose Pippen - Bad decision. 


We'll have to wait to see what's offered.

OT - Gordon giricek is looking solid right about now.

oh well.....

Go Bulls.....

BTW - Wasn't the motto here "No Excuses" - "Kirk's tired. It's been a long season. He's hitting the wall. He's dealing with being on a losing team for the first time ever. He's......from Kansas where watching corn grow is a talent, not a hobby."

Give it a rest - root for the players playing in the Bulls Uni's!


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> 
> 
> Mass distribution and core strength. But strength per se is secondary to the two main factors in fighting through picks, which are:
> ...


I saw this vintage interview with Dr. J. He was talking about improving his defense. 

I disagree that it has anything to do with intelligence - that's just a slap at Crawford.

What Dr. J said was that it took desire and concentration. You have to focus on staying with your man through picks. You have to stare at your man's belly button instead of the ball, so you don't bite on ball fakes. And so on.

Peace!


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

How did this thread go 3 pages? Good grief. We've heard all the arguements before. No one is going to magically come up with an new observation about Jamal Crawford, especially in relation to Kirk Hinrich.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> I disagree that it has anything to do with intelligence - that's just a slap at Crawford.


Intelligence = Basketball IQ. This is a very, very big part of anticipating and fighting through screens.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Skiles video Divx 5.1 

MP3 of skiles (same as above no video 1.5 megs


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## jimmy (Aug 20, 2002)

Why would Skiles even say something like that?

Say Kirk is having trouble with his shot because he's only a rookie and doesn't have proper conditioning.

Don't say because he's the best defender and plays with a lot of energy. He's supposed to do both. It's not OK to have a below 40 FG%.

He doesn't worry about that? That's part of the reason we're losing games. Start worrying.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Its a shame that Bulls fans can't even agree on a point so simple - that Hinrich embodies just about everything we want in our players. He's talented, intelligent, and has heart and desire. The guy gives 110% every night. Maybe its just the lingering affects of a board divided so long over Jamal, but I really find it hard to believe we've got posters who could have a problem with Hinrich. Its got nothing to do with sacred cows or anything else. Its really just over-analyzing by a fan base craving something more meaningful to talk about.

Nonetheless, if shooting % is your biggest gripe, how come Carmelo is only shooting .428 (59/.328 3FG) and Lebron .416 (51/.328 3FG) compared to Hinrich's .389 110/.382 3FG? I don't get overly excited about 43% for a SF or 42% for a finisher like Lebron either. I think all these percentages are pretty darn low, but I suspect they'll all get better in years to come. Kirk's biggest problem remains finishing and when he learns how to do that in the NBA theres no reason his % won't climb significantly.

Jason Kidd
37.5 minutes
.387 FG%
.321 3FG%
.820 FT%
6.7 RPG
9.5 APG
1.8 SPG
.22 BPG
3.3 TPG
16.3 PPG

Kirk Hinrich
35.2 minutes
.389 FG%
.382 3FG%
.785 FT%
3.4 RPG
6.5 APG
1.3 SPG
.23 BPG
2.69 TPG
11.7 PPG

Personally, I'm pretty heartened after comparing the two knowing that one is a rookie and one is a guy whose an all-star, been in the league ten years, and would literally be welcomed on every team in basketball.


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## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

yeah, i am tired of skiles making excuses for himself and hinrich. Hinrich is a professional. he should be in condition. 

I still don't see why everyone thinks hinrich is so great. yeah, sure he hustles...well, so does derek fisher. he draws charges, so does derek fisher. he hits a lot of threes, so does derek fisher. let me rephrase that...OPEN threes. I don't see hinrich ever hitting a 3 over someone. his shots are usually WIDE open, and he still shoots a low percentage. as for PG skills, his passing is not that great. he has so much difficulty creating the entry pass into the post. you guys don't believe me? watch closely. it takes forever for an entry pass. I also don't ever see him creating the nifty pass or any alley oops like what a prototypical point guard does....


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> yeah, i am tired of skiles making excuses for himself and hinrich. Hinrich is a professional. he should be in condition.
> 
> 
> ...


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> 
> 
> Kirk (another double-double) owned Fisher (1-5 FG, 15 minutes, 3 fouls) the other night. Fisher is currently shooting 36% from the field and 28% from behind the arc. Kirk's current stats are better -- across the board -- than Fisher's have ever been in his entire career. Seriously, did you really mean to compare Hinrich to Fisher?
> ...


VV, let you tell it, Kirk owns everyone...

Your definition of "owned" is questionable...

There wasn't anyone on the Bulls owning anyone the other night....

I'll agree Kirk is better than Fisher, but he isn't worlds better...

Kirk and Fisher is a much better comparison than Kirk and Kidd, I mean there is no comparison there.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> VV, let you tell it, Kirk owns everyone...


Really? When else have I said that? Please fill me in.



> Your definition of "owned" is questionable...


Hinrich had a double-double. Fisher had 4 points on 1-5 shooting and collected 3 fouls in 15 minutes trying to stay in front of Kirk.



> Kirk and Fisher is a much better comparison than Kirk and Kidd, I mean there is no comparison there.


At this stage of their careers, sure.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> Its a shame that Bulls fans can't even agree on a point so simple - that Hinrich embodies just about everything we want in our players. He's talented, intelligent, and has heart and desire. The guy gives 110% every night. Maybe its just the lingering affects of a board divided so long over Jamal, but I really find it hard to believe we've got posters who could have a problem with Hinrich. Its got nothing to do with sacred cows or anything else. Its really just over-analyzing by a fan base craving something more meaningful to talk about.
> 
> Nonetheless, if shooting % is your biggest gripe, how come Carmelo is only shooting .428 (59/.328 3FG) and Lebron .416 (51/.328 3FG) compared to Hinrich's .389 110/.382 3FG? I don't get overly excited about 43% for a SF or 42% for a finisher like Lebron either. I think all these percentages are pretty darn low, but I suspect they'll all get better in years to come. Kirk's biggest problem remains finishing and when he learns how to do that in the NBA theres no reason his % won't climb significantly.
> ...


How can you see any comparison between Kidd and Hinrich's numbers? Except that they both have shot poorly from the field this year(though Kirk is a much better 3 point shooter than Kidd, which isn't saying too much). But Kidd's numbers Dwarf Hinrichs.

He's ahead of him in every statistical category, even turnovers. Which we thought early on would be Kirk's calling card. 

Anyhow. Kirk is great. Terrific. But we still suck. And Jamal is still our best player at creating his own shot on offense. Kirk is second. And then it's a long ways finding someone after that.

Kirk and Jamal have been our two best players all year. So I don't see why we need so many threads dedicated to ripping one, just to prop the other. Why not say Kirk is much better than...Kendall Gill. Or Scottie Pippen. Or our dearly departed Rick Brunson.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> Really? When else have I said that? Please fill me in.


How quickly we forget....



> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Kareem Rush is going to be a real nice player when he gets a chance, he looks like another Michael Redd...





> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> Kirk dominated him in college.


He dominates/owns everyone according to you...

Maybe we need some clips of Barbosa's first NBA start (against the Bulls), and the game in Seattle when Ridnour was going nuts...


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## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

come on VV, you gotta be kidding if you want to compare hinrichs shooting to pejas or allens. I know you watch the games VV, and hinrich is always WIDE open on the 3 point line. the guy cannot create his own shot. there is no doubt about that. kinda like fisher. fisher is also deadly at the 3 point line....when he is wide open. remember when he hit like 15 threes in the finals one year?? thats cuz he was WIDE open. peja and allen are always hitting jumpers in the defenders faces. same with jamal. that in part attributes to his low FG%. jamal is always the one taking the tough shots. no one really sets him up. its rare that I see jamal have an open three that is created by someone else (maybe hinrich creates 1 a game for jamal...maybe). when the 24 second shot is widing down, who do you think ttakes the shot?? yup, jamal does. now this doesn't entirely excuse jamal from his poor FG%, but it is part of the reason. Hinrich on the other hand, has open shots all day that are created by opposing teams concentrating on jamal and eddy, yet he still shoots a low percentage. and i don't think anyone will dispute the fact that hinrich can create his own shots.


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## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

oops...that last sentence is suppose to say that hinrich cannot create his own shots


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

[sarcasm]


Dear Coach Skiles,

I respectfully request that the next time a sportswriter asks you a question about the play of the Bulls backcourt that you do not exclude one only to speak of the other. You see, it creates such undue animosity and hostility here in the little universe of bbb.net when you praise Kirk and don't even mention Jamal. I know, I know, they're both on the same team so it's kind of sad really, especially when you consider the Bulls only have eighteen wins on the entire season with only sixteen games left! (Ouch, oops sorry, did that one hit a little close to home? my bad.) Hey call us a little compulsive, but it seems we have nothing much better to do than compare (compare being a very polite term in this context) these two players ad naseum. Your future cooperation in regards to this matter would be certainly appreciated. Thank you for your time. 

mizenkay

P.S. Have fun this summer kickin' butt at the Berto, we'll be thinking of you!!


[/sarcasm]


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> How quickly we forget....


Apparently so. Or maybe others are quick to assume...



> He dominates/owns everyone according to you...


Really? News to me. Please cite examples (plural).



> Maybe we need some clips of Barbosa's first NBA start (against the Bulls), and the game in Seattle when Ridnour was going nuts...


Please.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> come on VV, you gotta be kidding if you want to compare hinrichs shooting to pejas or allens. I know you watch the games VV, and hinrich is always WIDE open on the 3 point line. the guy cannot create his own shot. there is no doubt about that. kinda like fisher. fisher is also deadly at the 3 point line....when he is wide open. remember when he hit like 15 threes in the finals one year?? thats cuz he was WIDE open. peja and allen are always hitting jumpers in the defenders faces. same with jamal. that in part attributes to his low FG%. jamal is always the one taking the tough shots. no one really sets him up. its rare that I see jamal have an open three that is created by someone else (maybe hinrich creates 1 a game for jamal...maybe). when the 24 second shot is widing down, who do you think ttakes the shot?? yup, jamal does. now this doesn't entirely excuse jamal from his poor FG%, but it is part of the reason. Hinrich on the other hand, has open shots all day that are created by opposing teams concentrating on jamal and eddy, yet he still shoots a low percentage. and i don't think anyone will dispute the fact that hinrich can create his own shots.


Okay, I'm done debating this issue with you.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> How can you see any comparison between Kidd and Hinrich's numbers? Except that they both have shot poorly from the field this year(though Kirk is a much better 3 point shooter than Kidd, which isn't saying too much). But Kidd's numbers Dwarf Hinrichs.
> ...


My whole point was that there is no need to continue disparaging Hinrich. He's clearly been a good player and the kind of player that we need. I made absolutely NO comparison between Kirk or Jamal. 

As far as the comparison I made, I clearly pointed out one guy is all-world and one guy is just a rookie. I think the numbers looked pretty good and given one guy had 10 years to get his game to that level, I'm heartened that our guy is producing like this and has just started.

Kidds numbers dwarf Hinrichs?

MPG: 37.5 to 35.2 -2.3 difference
FG%: .387 to .389 no difference
3FG %: .321 to .382 +6% difference
FT%: .820 to .785 -.035 difference
RPG: 6.7 to 3.4 -3.3 difference
APG: 9.5 to 6.5 -3.0 difference
SPG: 1.8 to 1.3 -0.5 difference
BPG .22 to .23 no difference
TPG: 3.3 to 2.69 +.59 difference
PPG: 16.3 to 11.7 -4.6 difference

The biggest differences are points, assists and rebounds. As was pointed out, Hinrich's assist are playing on the worst shooting team in the NBA compared to the Nets who are at least middle of the road at 14th. Kidd is and always will be a better rebounder than Hinrich. As far as scoring, they're both 3rd in scoring and 3rd in shots taken on their team. Kidd has taken about 100 more shots this year. I also didn't get into comparing only a part of Hinrich's season where he'd clearly look much stronger than using his year totals. I didn't try to change the view to fit my comparison. Certainly, there will be posters who will try to conclude I think Hinrich = Kidd and that is completely non-sensical. As I said, I'm heartened by the comparison as is. Our guy is just a rookie and based on his performance this year I hope we've got a "keeper".


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> come on VV, you gotta be kidding if you want to compare hinrichs shooting to pejas or allens. I know you watch the games VV, and hinrich is always WIDE open on the 3 point line. the guy cannot create his own shot. there is no doubt about that.
> ...
> Hinrich on the other hand, has open shots all day that are created by opposing teams concentrating on jamal and eddy, yet he still shoots a low percentage. and i don't think anyone will dispute the fact that hinrich can create his own shots.


I'll dispute it. Hinrich has absolutely no problem taking his player off the dribble. Hinrich's problem is he needs to learn to finish at this level. If that was your argument, I'd buy it. Can't create? Are you kidding me?

BTW, criticizing a guy for not taking contested threes is absurd. I'll take the guy who looks to put up the uncontested three every day over a guy whose jacking up threes with a hand in his face.

Are you serious?


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