# Kobe article that hits home



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I was reading this article on Bryant's incredible 81 point performance, and the points Dan Wetzel makes about player criticism, individual talent sometimes superceding the need for team play, jacking up huge numbers of attempts, Hoosiers references and so forth was striking in the way it mirrored the recurrent themes of the Bulls board.

So I post it here.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=dw-kobe012206&prov=yhoo&type=lgns



> *Kobe Bryant scored 81 points on Sunday – enough to rank second all time to Wilt Chamberlain's immortal 100-point game in 1962 and knock the NFL off the front burner of sports conversations – and yet people still will criticize him.
> 
> Count on it. They'll say he should have passed more (he had just two assists). They'll say he just did it for the spotlight. They'll point to his 18 misses, not his 28 makes.*
> 
> ...


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

David Thompson and George Gervin went into the final game of the season in a close race for the scoring title.

Thompson scored like 73 and Gervin 69 in the final game of the season and Thompson won the title by .00001.

(Sorry if the stats are slightly off)

And then there was Jordan's 63 against the Celtics... That was playoffs, not against some sub-.400 team.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> David Thompson and George Gervin went into the final game of the season in a close race for the scoring title.
> 
> Thompson scored like 73 and Gervin 69 in the final game of the season and Thompson won the title by .00001.
> 
> ...


http://www.nba.com/history/thompson_bio.html



> Thompson and the San Antonio Spurs' George Gervin provided memorable drama in the 1977-78 season, as the two battled for the league scoring title right down to the final game. Before the games of April 9, the last day of the regular season, Thompson and Gervin were in a virtual tie for the scoring lead, with Gervin holding a slight edge. The Nuggets faced the Detroit Pistons that afternoon, and Thompson poured in 73 points. It was the third-highest output ever in an NBA game; only Wilt Chamberlain, who scored 100 in one game and 78 in another, had scored more. But Gervin, not to be outdone, scored 63 that evening against the New Orleans Jazz. It was just enough to give Gervin the scoring crown, 27.22 points per game to Thompson's 27.15, the tightest one-two finish ever.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> http://www.nba.com/history/thompson_bio.html


D'oh

Got some of it right.

Gervin 63, and he won the title.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Anyone who would criticize Kobe Bryant's 81 point game is a nincompoop. 

He shot over 50% and his team won the game. End of discussion. 

I've always been slow to commend Kobe too highly on his career due to the "Shaq-factor" (and probably because I simply don't like the guy) but he has proven me wrong this season. He's been amazing all year. This 81 point masterpiece is just gravy.

The roster on that team stinks. It really does. But they are playing playoff calibur basketball because of Bryant. Kudos to him and the season he is having.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> The roster on that team stinks. It really does. But they are playing playoff calibur basketball because of Bryant. Kudos to him and the season he is having.


That roster sure does stink, sort of makes me curious to see what lineup they'll have in 07/08


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

He is a talent. 

But Jordan could have done this every night. Against weak teams. 

I can see this in the playoffs of a must win game, but I do not understand the need to to it to a bad team at that, halfway through the season. 

He had a great game, no doubt about it, but I wonder what it accomplished? I wonder where its leading to?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

truebluefan said:


> He had a great game, no doubt about it, but I wonder what it accomplished? I wonder where its leading to?


It accomplished a win over the Toronto Raptors. It doesn't have to lead anywhere. It is a "one game" milestone with "one game" implications. 

It is to be praised for what it is: a spectacular and, in my opinion mind boggling, single game accomplishment. Nothing more, nothing less.

But Wetzel is talking about people (in an unecessary inflammatory manner, I hate the article actually) going so far as to being critical of the accomplishment. I can't fathom why anyone would do that.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Anyone who would criticize Kobe Bryant's 81 point game is a nincompoop.
> 
> He shot over 50% and his team won the game. End of discussion.


I don't see it that way at all. His team had the game well in hand by about the three minute mark and yet he kept jacking up shots. His final ten or so points were scored when the game was out of reach.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

TripleDouble said:


> I don't see it that way at all. His team had the game well in hand by about the three minute mark and yet he kept jacking up shots. His final ten or so points were scored when the game was out of reach.


So? This isn't little league where we don't want to hurt the fragile pride of the opponent's 9 year old roster. These guys are grown men. Paid professionals. If someone wants to run up some stats on em, so what. 

This isn't Steve Spurrier beating Central Florida 70-3 in an amatuer collegiate contest. It isn't Lisa Leslie scoring 100 points in a half against a high school girls team, causing the other team to refuse to take the court after halftime due to her, and her coach's, poor sportsmanship. 

When Wilt scored 100 points, he played until the closing seconds, taking shot after shot, even though his team won by 22 points. 

I don't have any problem with what Bryant did at all. The Lakers won by 18, but it was a 6 point game going into the 4th quarter. This wasn't some embarrasing blow out.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> I don't see it that way at all. His team had the game well in hand by about the three minute mark and yet he kept jacking up shots. His final ten or so points were scored when the game was out of reach.


As discussed in the article:



> You know, even if a few of those points were unnecessary – and because the game was in doubt until late in the fourth quarter, not many of them were – who cares? Really, what is wrong with trying to make history? Don't the Raptors get paid, too?
> 
> If a baseball player hits a home run in his first three at-bats, does anyone blame him for swinging for the fences his next time up? Does anyone complain when a manager doesn't even think to take a tiring pitcher out of a no-hitter, even if it is the best move for the team to win?
> 
> ...


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

TripleDouble said:


> I don't see it that way at all. His team had the game well in hand by about the three minute mark and yet he kept jacking up shots. His final ten or so points were scored when the game was out of reach.


...and your point is what? Earlier in the season when Kobe had the opportunity to score 80+ points he sat the entire 4th quarter and people were saying he should have played to see how many he could get. I even heard some say he was selfish in doing that. The point of the article isn't about what Kobe did, but about the hate Kobe will get regardless of what he does. The sad part is we witnessed something great, but because of people's hate for Kobe they are blinded by his performances. The man scored 81 points!!! Who is the last to do that?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

ralaw said:


> ...and your point is what? Earlier in the season when Kobe had the opportunity to score 80+ points he sat the entire 4th quarter and people were saying he should have played to see how many he could get. I even heard some say he was selfish in doing that. The point of the article isn't about what Kobe did, but about the hate Kobe will get regardless of what he does. The sad part is we witnessed something great, but because of people's hate for Kobe they are blinded by his performances. The man scored 81 points!!! *Who is the last to do that?*



















Wilt Chamberlain, March 2, 1962


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> ...and your point is what? Earlier in the season when Kobe had the opportunity to score 80+ points he sat the entire 4th quarter and people were saying he should have played to see how many he could get. I even heard some say he was selfish in doing that. The point of the article isn't about what Kobe did, but about the hate Kobe will get regardless of what he does. The sad part is we witnessed something great, but because of people's hate for Kobe they are blinded by his performances. The man scored 81 points!!! Who is the last to do that?


Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I dont hate kobe. Saying that someone is a hater because they question why he did it is not a reason at all. 

I agree some do dislike him. Some are Shaq fans and not a kobe fan. I know is a super talent. 

As I said earlier, Michael could have done this every night against bad teams. 

Taking nothing away from a great individual game, I just wonder where this is leading? It will be interesting to see what happens the rest of the season with Kobe and the Lakers.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

I dont care about him scoring 80 points but its crazy articles like this that ignore that his team was down big to the Raptors AT Home in the first place .The Lakers had what like 49 points at the half but gace up 63 or so. When will Kobe decide this year to pick up the defense instead of the offense.

I was watching the game and the Raptors did not do everything they could to stop him. They allowed him to dipsy do into the lane and no one even bothered to deliver a good foul and stand up for themselves . They basically laid down and it was pathetic . 

the beef isnt so much with Kobe but so many people who will lose prospective on how and why he accomplished it.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> So? This isn't little league where we don't want to hurt the fragile pride of the opponent's 9 year old roster. These guys are grown men. Paid professionals. If someone wants to run up some stats on em, so what.
> 
> This isn't Steve Spurrier beating Central Florida 70-3 in an amatuer collegiate contest. It isn't Lisa Leslie scoring 100 points in a half against a high school girls team, causing the other team to refuse to take the court after halftime due to her, and her coach's, poor sportsmanship.
> 
> ...


The point is not that he embarressed the Raptors by staying in the whole game (they should have been embarressed long before that), it's that he put personal achievements above the team once again. For one, he could have gotten seriously injured in a meaningless game chasing and individual record, and that would have effectively ended the season for every individual on the Lakers. Secondly, he could have gone a lot furthur towards improving the team by using those unmeaningful final minutes to try to get his whole team involved. 

Everyone points out how little offensive talent he has to work with as justification for him being a ball hog but I really think that's overstated. Compare him and the Lakers with Steve Nash and the Suns. Marion is not that much better an offensive player than Odom; Thomas is not substantially better than Mihm offensively;Bell is not much better than Parker; and Diaw is better than Brown (but was worse than Brown before playing with Nash). Still, the Suns don't out offensive-talent LA by as much as they outperform them (subjective I know) and to me the reason is Kobe and his selfishness/lack of trust of teamates.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

truebluefan said:


> I dont hate kobe.


I do. But what he did is just amazing. To say that MJ "could have done it" trivializes the significance of the accomplishment in my opinion. MJ could have done it? Maybe, but he didn't. And no one else has except Wilt. Ever. 

And even if MJ could have done it, would the greatest player of all time doing it detract from Kobe's accomplishment? I don't think it would. 

There is no reason to qualify or downplay what he did in any way, on any level, in my opinion.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> The point is not that he embarressed the Raptors by staying in the whole game (they should have been embarressed long before that), it's that he put personal achievements above the team once again.


His "personal achievment" led his "team" to a come from behind victory.



> For one, he could have gotten seriously injured in a meaningless game chasing and individual record, and that would have effectively ended the season for every individual on the Lakers.


Thats a reach. Guys stay in games all the time to get triple doubles or to accomplish records. Skiles did it to get his 30 assist game. If you criticize Kobe for this, then there are countless other NBA players, past and present, that you have issue with.

And, regardless, it was a close game.



> Secondly, he could have gone a lot furthur towards improving the team by using those unmeaningful final minutes to try to get his whole team involved.


What human being, anywhere, would sacrifice a chance to make history for 3 minutes of "team development". I mean, come on man.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

I'm just referring to the final 3 minutes of the game when it was out of reach and Kobe kept chucking. 

And a guy who has the supposed "killer drive" to win "at all costs" that Kobe is purported to have wouldn't really give two flying hoots about coming in second place for a record. Right?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

TripleDouble said:


> I'm just referring to the final 3 minutes of the game when it was out of reach and Kobe kept chucking.
> 
> And a guy who has the supposed "killer drive" to win "at all costs" that Kobe is purported to have wouldn't really give two flying hoots about coming in second place for a record. Right?


Of course he would care. Everyone would care. The standard you are applying to him is absurd, especially given the fact that in an *actual blowout*, earlier this season, he *chose* to sit out the entire 4th quarter even though he had 63 points at the time.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

truebluefan said:


> He is a talent.
> 
> But Jordan could have done this every night. Against weak teams.
> 
> ...


Thats the point of the article, it doesn't have to accomplish month. Kobe's team still won, isn't that enough to warrant no complaints? Why are people ridiculing him for accomplishing something great, and making a game damn entertaining, you know people are going to be having on ESPN to watch Lakers games to see what Kobe's going to do next, its good for the league, it makes the league more exciting and fun, thats what it accomplishes.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Of course he would care. Everyone would care. The standard you are applying to him is absurd, especially given the fact that in an *actual blowout*, earlier this season, he *chose* to sit out the entire 4th quarter even though he had 63 points at the time.


Why does the fact that he did the "right thing" earlier discredit my standard for him?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

sloth said:


> Thats the point of the article, it doesn't have to accomplish month. Kobe's team still won, isn't that enough to warrant no complaints? Why are people ridiculing him for accomplishing something great, and making a game damn entertaining, you know people are going to be having on ESPN to watch Lakers games to see what Kobe's going to do next, its good for the league, it makes the league more exciting and fun, thats what it accomplishes.


Sloth, I rarely agree with you. But I'm with you all the way on this one. There is nothing to question or criticize here with what Bryant did. Nothing.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Wilt Chamberlain, March 2, 1962


That is my point!

*1962-------->2006 = 44 years! * 
BTW who played within those 44 years? Downgrading this only shows people's hatered for the man which has NOTHING to do with basketball!


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

TripleDouble said:


> Why does the fact that he did the "right thing" earlier discredit my standard for him?


That presumes he didn't do the "right thing" this time. He did. 

What I'm saying is that given a fact pattern that would actually support (to some) a criticism based on selfishness, Kobe did the unselfish thing.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

I dislike Kobe but no one can take that 81 point game away from him. I didnt see it, but it must have been incredible.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

I know its a moot point, but just for the sake of discussion: what would they be saying if the Lakers were losers, yesterday, against the Raptors?


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Well were not going change each others opinions here. I dislike Kobe and dislike the idea of personal glory being sought in meaningless minutes (the final three). You say, what the hey, anyone would do it -- just because we all might do something in a certain situation does not make it right.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

El Chapu said:


> I know its a moot point, but just for the sake of discussion: what would they be saying if the Lakers were losers, yesterday, against the Raptors?


I think that would totally change the discussion. Guy takes 48 shots and team loses at home to inferior competition. 

But thats kind of the point. Kobe scored 55 points in the second half to lead his team back from a 14 point deficit.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

81 points is incredible. that said, kobe is a fascist.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

TripleDouble said:


> The point is not that he embarressed the Raptors by staying in the whole game (they should have been embarressed long before that), it's that he put personal achievements above the team once again. For one, he could have gotten seriously injured in a meaningless game chasing and individual record, and that would have effectively ended the season for every individual on the Lakers. Secondly, he could have gone a lot furthur towards improving the team by using those unmeaningful final minutes to try to get his whole team involved.
> 
> Everyone points out how little offensive talent he has to work with as justification for him being a ball hog but I really think that's overstated. Compare him and the Lakers with Steve Nash and the Suns. Marion is not that much better an offensive player than Odom; Thomas is not substantially better than Mihm offensively;Bell is not much better than Parker; and Diaw is better than Brown (but was worse than Brown before playing with Nash). Still, the Suns don't out offensive-talent LA by as much as they outperform them (subjective I know) and to me the reason is Kobe and his selfishness/lack of trust of teamates.


they were down 19 early in 3rd. Exactly how would you have handled that situation???

For anyone & I mean ANYONE to have anything negative to say about what he did last night shows they're not really a fan of the game. He didn't emabrass Toronto on purpose....they just couldn't stop him. That game didn't get out of reach until about 3 minutes left in the 4th.

I've witness Tracy McGrady score 13 pts in 35 seconds....a games not over until its over


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> I don't see it that way at all. His team had the game well in hand by about the three minute mark and yet he kept jacking up shots. His final ten or so points were scored when the game was out of reach.



Read the article in the OP's post.


They said it right on ESPN last night: If it had been Tim Duncan on fire like this, they'd write two or three books about it. Kobe? Just scorn. 

Crazy.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I'm going to invoke the name of one Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

There were many times Phil pulled MJ when the game got out of reach.

On the other hand, I can recall MJ playing in blowouts until he "got his 30" when it clearly wasn't necessary for him to be in there. (Similarly, Walter Payton often stayed in the game to "get his 100")

Could he have been hurt? Yes. Could he have made it a "fairer" game by sitting out earlier? Probably.

But I don't fault him. Heck, the fans wanted to see Superman, not the second team playing out the blowout.


And again, going back to the article -- why not let Kobe rack up the points? 

Was Wilt wrong to go for 100? 

Is a pitcher going for a perfect game wrong, even though he would normally get pulled in the 6th or 7th in favor of the fresh arm of a middle reliever?

Should a boxer not go for the KO when he knows he is clearly ahead on points?


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

GB said:


> Read the article in the OP's post.
> 
> 
> They said it right on ESPN last night: If it had been Tim Duncan on fire like this, they'd write two or three books about it. Kobe? Just scorn.
> ...


 imagine if this were Wade or Lebron...

hell, if this were Ben Gordan this place would be flooded with "Jordan who?" post


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

tone wone said:


> hell, if this were Ben Gordan this place would be flooded with "Jordan who?" post


Now lets not get carried away...the day the Bulls faithful start posting "Jordan who?" is the day...my God, its so unimaginable, I can't even think of something to complete the thought.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

Also people dont forget that this guy scored 62 against Dallas in just 3 quarters (didnt play the 4th, blowout). So we could be talking about two 80+ points game for Kobe in one season. Not a bad thing to add to your resume.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

That question about the pitcher going for a perfect game is spot on.

But why invoke the name of MJ? We can surmise all we want to that he could have...but the only fact we have is that he *didn't*.

Kobe's 81 doesn't take anything away from MJ, anymore than Lebrons better stats than Kobe at the same age takes anything away from Kobe. 

Some Bulls fans act like they are scared for their mans legend. I'm content to see Kobe build his own. This is fun.

It's also a double standard. We wouldn't criticize a come from behind +50% FG% 70+ point game from Steve Nash.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

GB said:


> That question about the pitcher going for a perfect game is spot on.
> 
> But why invoke the name of MJ? We can surmise all we want to that he could have...but the only fact we have is that he *didn't*.
> 
> ...


No not really. Nash has a reputation of (get this) PASSING THE BALL. Nash would never get 70+ points in any game, not even pickup against high schoolers, because he would PASS THE BALL.

And even if he did get 70, it would likely be paired up with 15 assists.

The problem with Kobe isn't this game. Its a great accomplishment. But his track record this year (and this is key), is that he is a selfish player and a tremendous ball-hogging chucker, who just happens to score alot, but does little else (his defense this year has been overstated, based on past reputation).

Everyone keeps pointing out how bad his teammates are. I would remind all of you that until Kobe bryant came along, the old adage was "you are not great unless you can make your teammates better).

And look what has happened. Lamar Odom, a former ALL STAR, has actually gotten worse...not better....while playing alongside Kobe Bryant. And he's in his prime years. 

That says it all.


Congratulations Kobe. It was a great game.

You're still a selfish player and a ballhog, that is incapable of making his teammates better, and as a result, will never sniff another title.......


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

this was kobe's 666th game. the devil made him do it!


:devil2:


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

LMAO at assistant mod Premier's thread title for the Kobe discussion on the Celtics board:

Kobe Bryant Scores Points for the Children


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

mizenkay said:


> this was kobe's 666th game. the devil made him do it!
> 
> 
> :devil2:


That explains everything!

BTW, I am indifferent to Bryant - I don't like Shaq though.

Bryant's going to score a lot of points every game until the Lakers get another player who can score at will, too.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> But his track record...


Thus we come to the crux of the matter. People don't want anything positive polluting their or the worlds current and dying view of Kobe Bryant.

It's cool. Shortsighted, but cool. The guy is a great player. One of the best ever.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

One of the greatest offensive performances ever but hes regressing as a player.I watched the game and the first half was raps and not because lakers couldnt score but because the didnt play any defense and the lakers were at home . 

But I have no hate towards Kobe but Sam Mitchell should be fired because when Kobe started hitting those threes you double him and triple him everytime he touches the ball they didnt do that.When they did foul him after he made 4 or 5 spinning playground moves it was a "sorry Mr.Bryant sir " wont do that again type of foul. 

They ran doubleteams at him a few times but it was the dont foul at the end of the game type of double teams not the lests get it out of his hands doubleteams.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

TRUTHHURTS said:


> One of the greatest offensive performances ever *but*
> 
> But I have no hate towards Kobe *but*
> 
> They ran doubleteams at him a few times *but*


Dude, give it up. He's a great player.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by TRUTHHURTS
> 
> One of the greatest offensive performances ever *but*
> ...





> Dude, give it up. He's a great player.


Touche


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## HuntDizzle (Nov 29, 2005)

truebluefan said:


> He is a talent.
> 
> But Jordan could have done this every night. Against weak teams.
> 
> ...



So....you're not a Basketball fan then? That's really what you're saying? That's how it sounds. I am as Die-Hard a Lakers fan as you will find, but guess what, when MJ was playing, I set my schedule around watching Bulls games. That's an appreciation for greatness in the game of Basketball. So many worshipped MJ (rightfully so, I am one of them), but that's what too many haters are failing to do w/ Kobe....sit back and enjoy one of the greatest players in the game. 

You don't see what it accomplished? How about this...uh... it brought his team back from an 18 point 3rd qtr. defecit to get a much needed victory, halting a 2 game slide in which they absolutely were demoralized by blowing the lead in Sacramento. It was also a victory to protect homecourt when they play one more at home on Friday, then head out on the road for a 7 game trip. Wow, it actually accomplished quite a bit for his TEAM now didn't it? Just as Kobe said after the game, it was about the "W" and doing whatever it took to get it. If he hadn't done what he did, his TEAM would have been blown out. Is that good enough for you?




> But Jordan could have done this every night. Against weak teams.


Really? Think of what you are saying. You are saying that someone could have done something on a nightly basis that they have never even done once? How does that work? Logic tends to disprove that theory I believe. Plus, did you happen to see Scottie Pippen on Cold Pizza this morning? He put it into perspective and he said that Jordan couldn't have done that, especially back when the defenses weren't called so tightly. If his wingman doesn't think he could have done it, that's good enough for me.



> I don't see it that way at all. His team had the game well in hand by about the three minute mark and yet he kept jacking up shots. His final ten or so points were scored when the game was out of reach.



Well in hand? Please. We also thought we had the game "well in hand" the other night against Sacto, but that didn't work out so well. We, as Lakers fans, are not too comfortable with late leads at this point. We have lost too many close ones, so whatever has to be done to put it in the FRIDGE and get THE JELLO JIGGLIN', then that's what we want to see! Also, were'nt half of his "final ten or so points" free throws? Yep. They didn't have to foul him, they could have made him have to make the shots to hit 81, but they didn't.

Appreciate greatness, don't degrade it. You only make yourselves look bad.

Haters, admit your plight.

Werrrrrrrd!


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## HuntDizzle (Nov 29, 2005)

> You're still a selfish player and a ballhog, that is incapable of making his teammates better, and as a result, will never sniff another title.......



Hello Ignorance, nice to see you again. I don't think anyone who scores 81 points while shooting 61% from the field is a ballhog. Did you not see that Kobe was trying to get his teammates involved early? But they kept missing, if they had hit some shots, he would have had more assists. He even played less minutes than normal in the 1st half. Truth is, his teammates weren't getting it done. He made his teammates better in the standings tonight, that's what counts. If he hadn't, all of his teammates would be one game worse today, or is that what an "unselfish" player would prefer?

Never sniff another title huh? Well, how about this....when he, and we as Lakers fans, DO sniff another title as we win one, you and all your Haterade drinking homies will not even be allowed to sniff Kobe's, or any of our jocks. Deal? Good, 'cause I'm putting my money on Kobe and the LakeShow winning another Title before anyone on the Bulls ever does again. 

You only hate b/c you can't relate. Think about it.

Werd.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

To put things in perspective, with all that time with the ball in Kobe's hands he only had 3 turnovers, and made 60% of his shots. How is that bad for the team?


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

I'm on record with my opinion that Kobe is a ballhog, but let's stop with the funny stuff and appreciate this for what it is. I've seen enough of that Lakers team to know that the rest of the roster is liable to disappear, in toto, at any moment. And then it's up to Kobe to win the game. He did that last night, in absolutely mindboggling fashion. Yeah, he took a lot of shots - but he hit 60% of them and got to the line TWENTY times. If someone is scoring at that clip, you give him the ball and get out of the way. The Lakers, and Kobe, were smart enough to realize that their ticket to a win was to turn Kobe loose. They did it, Kobe came through enormously, and they won. What's the controversy here? Now, if Kobe takes 40 shots and scores 30 points, we can justifiably discuss whether he's a ballhog or killing team chemistry. 

One game doesn't substantially change Kobe's legacy, but whatever you think of him, he was the best player the NBA has seen in quite a while for this one night.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Honestly, I think the progression of events last night was just about right for this to happen. The Lakers are down by double digits. Kobe scores a bunch, and I mean a bunch, to help the Lakers grab the lead. I happened to turn the game on in the mid 4th quarter (lucky me) thinking I'd take a casual look at Bosh. At this point, the Lakers are up by 7 points I think. It's still a game, and Kobe has just crossed over 60 points. At this point, the Lakers start pulling away, and only then does Kobe start really scoring for scoring's sake. For the rest of the fourth quarter, I don't believe anyone on the Lakers took a shot besides Kobe. I had a lot of fun watching, I'll say that.

If the game had developed a little bit differently, I probably would have been irritated with Kobe for going for all those points. But right at the point at which the game had been won by the Lakers Kobe had a few more than 60 points, and with about 6 minutes left, why not go for it?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Marc Stein: Kobe's 81 is "Greatest Performance Ever"

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/colum...&id=2302749&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines



> Sorry, Wilt: You're no Kobe
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> As I said earlier, Michael could have done this every night against bad teams.


81 points, every night. In wins? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Don't be delusional.

Let's not marginalize the accomplishment. Jordan was a great competitor, but there have been many players who can score as well if not *better* than number 23.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Bryant's performance was more impressive than Wilt's in one way, however. Chamberlain was a 7-foot-1 giant in a game still populated with smaller, slower players. Bryant had to swerve around all types of defenders, most of whom (safe to say) were longer and more athletic than those Chamberlain faced. He also had to do it on a sore ankle (from a previous game), and against a defense that was probably much more sophisticated and prepared in terms of scouting (though the Raptors' D sure didn't look like it on this night).
> 
> But Bryant had one big advantage over Wilt (and more recent players such as Michael Jordan) in that the new rules have made it almost impossible to defend against anyone. It's no coincidence that we've got three players averaging more than 30 points this season (Kobe, Allen Iverson and LeBron James), which would be the first time that's happened since 1981-82. In fact, were it not for Kobe's explosion, we'd probably all be talking this morning about Sunday's 152-149 Sonics-Suns double OT game, the league's highest-scoring game in 11 years.
> 
> As Blazers coach Nate McMillan once said after the NBA instituted the first set of new rules against hand-checking, back in the late '90s: "Michael Jordan would love this. It was almost impossible to guard him when you could touch him. With these rules, he could get 100 points."


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/marty_burns/01/23/notebook.0123/


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Ok 

Maybe the self conferred nickname of Mamba was justified 

If your Mitch Cupcake you really have to seriously consider trading Lamar and/or Kwame 

If Kwame could get you Kurt Thomas and Boris Diaw - you do it

MLE free agency should have Matt Harpring as your first target 

LLE free agency should have a vet big like Tony Battie or Jake Voshkul as your target

And if Lamar gets you Mike Dunleavy Jr and Derek Fischer you do it

If the draft gets you Hilton Armstrong in the 1st round and Gerry McNamara in the 2nd round then great.

*

Mihm
Thomas
Dunleavy
Bryant
Fischer

bench

Battie
Cook
Harpring
Diaw
Parker

projects/reserve

Bynum
Armstrong
Walton
Vujacic
McNamara

*


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

> Really, what is wrong with trying to make history? Don't the Raptors get paid, too?
> 
> If a baseball player hits a home run in his first three at-bats, does anyone blame him for swinging for the fences his next time up? Does anyone complain when a manager doesn't even think to take a tiring pitcher out of a no-hitter, even if it is the best move for the team to win?
> 
> ...


Sounds like the next topic on Stephen A..


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Hustle said:


> Sounds like the next topic on Stephen A..


Quite frankly, I'd rather stick a fork in my eye than watch that show.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I try to like Kobe i really do, but man does he make it hard to. Kobe scored 81 points to prove that he could, he did not care about playing defense or even getting his players involved, Its fine to score all times when your team is trailing but once the lakers got up by double digit points Kobe should have made a 180 and become the all around player that he can be. Instead Kobe just kept on scoring, whats lost here is that Kobe scored 81 points and yet the highest ast player on the Lakers was Odom with 7, Kobe just dribled and shot and forgot he even had teamates. There was no obligation for Kobe to just keep scoring, 

I want to say that Kobe is going to be a top 5 greatest NBA player of all time but i allways remind myself that this guy is just a scorer. To tell you the truth I am not impressed with Kobe scoring 81 beacuse he just keeps proving me right that this guy is just a scorer and nothing else and that this guy does not make his teamates better. There is no excuse for why Kobe only had 2 ast, he chose not to pass the ball and you cant say well he was the leading scorer so he did not have to pass the ball, well Mike James was the leading scorer on the Raptors and was also the leading assist man he had time to score 28 points and dish out 10 ast in 37 minutes, how can you tell me that Kobe Bryant could not get more then just 2 ast in 40+ minutes. Kobe will allways give you his best on offense and its just to bad that thats all he cares about.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> I try to like Kobe i really do, but man does he make it hard to. Kobe scored 81 points to prove that he could, he did not care about playing defense or even getting his players involved, Its fine to score all times when your team is trailing but once the lakers got up by double digit points Kobe should have made a 180 and become the all around player that he can be. Instead Kobe just kept on scoring, whats lost here is that Kobe scored 81 points and yet the highest ast player on the Lakers was Odom with 7, Kobe just dribled and shot and forgot he even had teamates. There was no obligation for Kobe to just keep scoring,
> 
> I want to say that Kobe is going to be a top 5 greatest NBA player of all time but i allways remind myself that this guy is just a scorer. To tell you the truth I am not impressed with Kobe scoring 81 beacuse he just keeps proving me right that this guy is just a scorer and nothing else and that this guy does not make his teamates better. There is no excuse for why Kobe only had 2 ast, he chose not to pass the ball and you cant say well he was the leading scorer so he did not have to pass the ball, well Mike James was the leading scorer on the Raptors and was also the leading assist man he had time to score 28 points and dish out 10 ast in 37 minutes, how can you tell me that Kobe Bryant could not get more then just 2 ast in 40+ minutes. Kobe will allways give you his best on offense and its just to bad that thats all he cares about.


Kobe's made 1st or 2nd all-nba all-defense teams 5 times in his career.
He's averaged 5 rebounds/5 assists per game for the past 6 seasons, and 6/6 twice. 1.5 steals 5 of the last 6 seasons.

I'm not particularly a big Kobe Bryant fan..


His statistics awards and rings make him look a lot like a better scoring Pippen.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Kobe was unselfish, trying to get his teammates involved in the first half. 

Lakers down by 14 at the half. 

Kobe gets more aggressive and decides to do the scoring himself. 

Lakers win by 18. 

I think this trend that it's better to play team basketball and lose than to have one player will you to a win is a terrible one. It's the same as the streetball trend, where winning isn't as important as style. The only difference is the style is different, but it's still putting style over winning. It's the same thing. 

Unbelievable game by Kobe. He is in the same sentence as Jordan and Wilt as far as all-time great scorers. And when he is hot, there is no player in history that is a better scorer.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe was unselfish, trying to get his teammates involved in the first half.
> 
> Lakers down by 14 at the half.
> 
> ...


 But look at the player on your Avatar, that guy CAN score 81 but hes such a team player that all he does is just win championships. Kobe isnt going to win a championship alone and well the arguement is that he doesnt have the talent around him, thats a horrible argument because Kobe HAS to make his players better around him. Jordan made Scotty a top 50 player of all time, Jordan made Luc Longleys career, Jordan made every single player around him much better then they actually where. Chris Mihm is not a horrible player, Smush is not a horrible player and Odom is actually a very very good player, everyone wants to say that Kobe has to score 50 a night for the lakers to win and thats just not true. 

I dont want to hear how "Well Duncan has Gino and Parker." Those guys where not even heard of before they became Spurs and in all honesty Parker isnt that much better then Hinrich. Great Teamates win Championships and i doubt that Kobe will win one alone untill he realizes that he has to trust the guys surronding him.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

On a sidenote, is there any doubt now that the Lakers made the right choice in who to keep? Yeesh.

They have a 27 year old who's the most dangerous player in the game and probably has 6-7 years of primetime basketball ahead of them. The Heat have an injury prone, fading superstar who's perception is much bigger than his reality, is the second best player on his team, and usually doesn't play more than 30 minutes a game.

To be honest, I think Shaq is about a year away from becoming a role player.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> But look at the player on your Avatar, that guy CAN score 81 but hes such a team player that all he does is just win championships. Kobe isnt going to win a championship alone and well the arguement is that he doesnt have the talent around him, thats a horrible argument because Kobe HAS to make his players better around him. Jordan made Scotty a top 50 player of all time, Jordan made Luc Longleys career, Jordan made every single player around him much better then they actually where. Chris Mihm is not a horrible player, Smush is not a horrible player and Odom is actually a very very good player, everyone wants to say that Kobe has to score 50 a night for the lakers to win and thats just not true.
> 
> I dont want to hear how "Well Duncan has Gino and Parker." Those guys where not even heard of before they became Spurs and in all honesty Parker isnt that much better then Hinrich. Great Teamates win Championships and i doubt that Kobe will win one alone untill he realizes that he has to trust the guys surronding him.


 I refuse to buy into the whole "Kobe is holding back his teamates" theory. I just dont see it. Look at the roster. As much as people love to bring up how "talented" Odom is they seem to overlook all of his flaws. He cant function unless the ball in his hands. Can only really play SF on offense but cant guard that position on defense...this is what we call a "tweener". Lastly, he's doing what he always does..15-17ppg 9-11rebs. This is what he's been his whole career. Thats not going to change reguardless of Kobe does or what Phil says.

This Laker team is actually overacheiving....mainly cause of Kobe and weaker than expected Western conference


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

HuntDizzle said:


> Hello Ignorance, nice to see you again. I don't think anyone who scores 81 points while shooting 61% from the field is a ballhog.


Your an idiot. Tell me, what was his FG% in the previous game, and how many shots did he take.

He's a ballhog, not BECAUSE of the 81pt game, but DESPITE the 81 pt game.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

tone wone said:


> I refuse to buy into the whole "Kobe is holding back his teamates" theory. I just dont see it. Look at the roster. As much as people love to bring up how "talented" Odom is they seem to overlook all of his flaws. He cant function unless the ball in his hands. Can only really play SF on offense but cant guard that position on defense...this is what we call a "tweener". Lastly, he's doing what he always does..15-17ppg 9-11rebs. This is what he's been his whole career. Thats not going to change reguardless of Kobe does or what Phil says.
> 
> This Laker team is actually overacheiving....mainly cause of Kobe and weaker than expected Western conference


Exactly. It's a very flawed team, even more than I initially thought it was. People are raving about Smush Parker? This guy hasn't been able to stick with any team in the league in any capacity until now. He wasn't even a reserve on the teams that cut him and now he's starting for the Lakers. That has more to do with how pathetic the Laker's PG situation is than it does with him as a player. Odom is a very talented player but lets not confuse the guy with Scottie Pippen. Pippen had a position at which he could excel and had the capability to play several other positions. Odom has no real position and, as a result, has been moved around from one position to another all his life. He doesn't shoot like a SF and doesn't have the strength to play PF. In addition, he lacks the desire to get the most out of his abilities and often makes crucial mistakes in big spots. Pippen lacked confidence when he first came to Chicago but he was always a far superior talent to Lamar Odom. Quite simply, he was stronger, quicker, more athletic, better defensively, better at scoring, and more driven to Lamar Odom is or ever will be. Odom is one of the top 30 players in the league. Pippen was a top 5 player for most of his career. The other starters are Mihm, an average C and Kwame Brown, a monumental bust. I love the Lakers but this is a garbage roster. I'm hoping that Andrew Bynum develops into 30% of the player that Shaq was but he's a few years from even reaching that point. Despite Kobe's "gung ho" approach, he's got this team overachieving. They are only 4.5 games back in the West. Had Kobe played in the two games that they lost in which he was suspended, they might be even closer.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

This is not the first time I have wished that Pinball posted on the Bulls board more often.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> Your an idiot.


I'd be embarassed to have typed that in.

(figure it out?)


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

thebizkit69u said:


> But look at the player on your Avatar, that guy CAN score 81 but hes such a team player that all he does is just win championships.


Tim Duncan might be better than Kobe Bryant, but he could *never* score 81 points in an NBA game. Never. 



thebizkit69u said:


> Kobe isnt going to win a championship alone and well the arguement is that he doesnt have the talent around him, thats a horrible argument because Kobe HAS to make his players better around him. Jordan made Scotty a top 50 player of all time, Jordan made Luc Longleys career, Jordan made every single player around him much better then they actually where. Chris Mihm is not a horrible player, Smush is not a horrible player and Odom is actually a very very good player, everyone wants to say that Kobe has to score 50 a night for the lakers to win and thats just not true.


The Bulls without Jordan won what, 56 games? This Lakers team without Kobe would probably be around 20 wins at most. Please do not compare them, Jordan clearly had a much better supporting cast.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

People really underrate Pippen, even on the Bulls board. The Bulls were like having Kobe, LeBron, and Ben Wallace on the same team with Lamar Odom as the 6th man. The Bulls had crazy talent on their team.

We are going to see how good Mihm is when he is a free agent. I just cannot even comprehend the criticism. His team sucks. This same team was picked to finish 10-13 by almost everyone and they might win the Pacific.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...owney,1,2158276.column?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed



> Kobe Bryant is in again. Popular again. Which, frankly, didn't seem possible.
> 
> He was hated. He was booed. He was vilified as a philanderer who had to answer charges of abusing a young woman. He was mocked by TV comedians for giving a gargantuan diamond ring to his wife as his way of saying "I'm sorry" for a bad dude's bad deeds.
> 
> ...



http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...01jan24,1,564487.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed



> It may stand as one of those numbers like Joe DiMaggio's 56 or Babe Ruth's 60, numbers that every sports fan knows what they mean without saying any more.
> 
> The NBA was buzzing Monday about the game Lakers coach Phil Jackson said was the most remarkable game he'd seen.
> 
> ...


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Tim Duncan might be better than Kobe Bryant, but he could *never* score 81 points in an NBA game. Never.
> 
> 
> 
> The Bulls without Jordan won what, 56 games? This Lakers team without Kobe would probably be around 20 wins at most. Please do not compare them, Jordan clearly had a much better supporting cast.


 David Robinson scored 71 and IMO Tim Duncan is a better player then Robinson ever was. 

How many playoffs did Jordan miss? Only 2 and that was when he was 40 years old playing for the Wizards. Quintin Daily wasnt lights years better then Smush Parker, Orlando was a better scorer then Odom but Odom is much better all around player in terms of Assts and Rebounds. Was Johnson and Corzine much better then Mihms? Lamar Odom, Smush Parker and Mihms are all shooting over 45%. And you cant ever say that Jordan had a better team in the 86-87 season and Jordan alone got the Bulls in playoffs and got swept by the best team in basketball. DUDE The next year SAM VINCENT was the second leading scorer and still Jordan took his team to a 50 win season and lost to the then best team in the NBA Detroit Pistons. Pippen was on that team and he wasnt even much of a factor. I can keep going on with this, Jordan in the playoffs allways had the luck to play some of the greatest teams in the History of the NBA and just fall short. Ill give Kobe props when he scores 60 on the NBA's best defensive team, Jordan did it against the Amazing Celtics, in 85-86 he averaged 43 points in the playoffs against the Celtics with Bird, MChale, Parrish etc, in 86-87 he averaged 35 against the same Celtics, He averaged 36 against the Cavs and Pistons in 87-88, 88-89 he averaged 34 against the Cavs, Knicks and Pistons. I can go on and on. Kobe is a great scorer but to think that Jordan could not score 81 points if he really wanted to against a team like the Raptors is pretty ridiculos.

And IMO Jordans 69 point game was far more impressive then Kobes 81 point game, Jordan 69 points on 23-37 shots 18 rebounds 6 ast 4 stls 1 block and only 2 turnovers. Even with all that energy Jordan put into scoring he still played like a true teamate and graped 18 freaking rebounds! and dished out 6 ast.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Still don't understand the "Jordan could have done it" posts.

So what? He didn't. Never will either.

Magic, Dominique Wilkins, others could all could have done it too though.


And David Robinson had 9 people helping him get his 71. Kobe was just physically unstoppable that night.









I started to realize that I was about to witness something remarkable when Kobe buried three treys in a two-minute span to bring the Lakers within 10. He was doing that thing that only a handful of elite players can do (Vince, T-Mac, LeBron and Wade are the others), which is to jump higher than any defender could reasonably be expected to jump and rain down shot after shot with terrifying accuracy. Chris Bosh can talk about how his team should have done something, but how do you really defend a player who can jump higher than your whole team and keep hitting shots?
http://www.raptorblog.com/060123a.php


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> This is not the first time I have wished that Pinball posted on the Bulls board more often.


Thanks. After the General Forum and the LA board, I visit this forum the most because of the wide-ranging opinions.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> I'd be embarassed to have typed that in.
> 
> (figure it out?)


:laugh: yup. I saw it the first time I typed it. Even before I hit the "submit" button.

I left it in out of sheer laziness.

He's still.....well....you know.


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