# OT - Kobe says "I want to be traded"



## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

Kobe is on our favorite reporter Stephen A Smith's radio show right now in New York and Kobe just said "I want to be traded". 

Anyone feel sorry for Laker fans right now? :lol:


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

Sweet. Zbo and change for Kobe. 

Starting lineup

Oden
Aldridge
Kobe
Roy
PG of choice.


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## RedHot&Rolling (Jun 26, 2004)

Zach & S&T Magloire for Kobe??


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## stockfire (Jul 17, 2004)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2886927


> "He met with me at the Four Seasons Hotel here [in Los Angeles] across from Fashion Island, which is now the Island Hotel," Bryant told Smith. "I went up to his penthouse suite. [Buss] looks me dead in the face and says: 'Kobe, I am not going to re-sign Shaq. I am not about to pay him $30 million a year or $80 million over three years. No way in hell. I feel like he's getting older. His body is breaking down, and I don't want to pay that money to him when I can get value for him right now rather than wait.
> 
> "This is my decision. It's independent of you. My mind is made up. It doesn't matter to me what you do in free agency because I do not want to pay [Shaq], period.' "
> 
> "Dr. Buss said that," Bryant told Smith. "And I haven't said anything for years because I've always felt like folks were just looking to create controversy. Now I know. I realize what extent [the Lakers] will go to, to cover themselves."


If what what Buss said about Shaq is true (as both Kobe and Shaq seems to point out), I actually feel a little sorry for Kobe having to endure 3 years of "Kobe forced Shaq out" articles.


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## RW#30 (Jan 1, 2003)

RedHot&Rolling said:


> Zach & S&T Magloire for Kobe??


Throw in Dickau and #54 pick :lol: :lol:


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## Spoolie Gee (Feb 3, 2005)

They'll want at least one of Roy, Aldridge or #1 pick I'm guessing.


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## Spoolie Gee (Feb 3, 2005)

And I dont care how much people around here hate Kobe, if we could get him for Zach and filler I'd do it in a second.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

No matter how good he is, no thanks to Kobe the rapist.


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

B_&_B said:


> No matter how good he is, no thanks to Kobe the rapist.


Agree, and I can cite other reasons:

Not a good role model for our young players
Ball hog
Blazers need to develop own team identity
Other players so far seem OK with the idea that Oden would be focus of attention; Bryant would not
He would gripe that Portland is not bright lights big city enough for him
He's a Laker


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

I'll take Kobe, as long as Roy or Aldridge aren't included. 

I hate him, and I'm not sure how he would fit into this supposed culture KP keeps preaching about. 

Kobe 

for 

Zach (yeah)
Sergio
Martell
Outlaw
Whoever else 
2008 unprotected pick
2010 unprotected pick


Will they get better offers....yes
Are they likely to trade to us....no


A line up of 

Jack
Roy
Kobe
Aldridge
Oden 

You would think we should be one of the favorites to win the division. I think he might agree to come here as well with our younf talent.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

> Not a good role model for our young players
> Ball hog



Sounds like another player I love


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## GrandpaBlaze (Jul 11, 2004)

A great a player as Kobe is, I don't want him anywhere near PDX. Anything the Blazers did would be because they got Kobe, and not due to anything the Blazers did as a team.

Do you REALLY want Kobe to be the face of the Blazers?

Read this about Kobe and see if you still want him as a Blazer.

Please, please no. I can't imagine anything alienating Blazer fans more than having "_Mr. It's all about me_" playing here.

Gramps...


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Spoolie Gee said:


> They'll want at least one of Roy, Aldridge or #1 pick I'm guessing.


They can **** in one hand and want in the other...

I don't want Kobe here, but I sure wouldn't mind us being a part of a trade to some 3rd team. Seattle? New York? 

More likely, they start moving pieces to get better now. Andrew Bynum may be available now. Odom is for sure. Luke Walton in a sign and trade? They have some pieces that might be interesting to somebody and we might be able to get involved.


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## chris_in_pdx (Jul 11, 2004)

hasoos said:


> Sweet. Zbo and change for Kobe.
> 
> Starting lineup
> 
> ...


I just threw up in my mouth a little. On the day that happened, I'd have a Blazer Gear Bonfire on my front yard.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Hey guys before you start talking LA would want ALdridge, Roy or Oden...Keep in mind LA would have absolutely zero leverage whatsoever. Kobe has a no trade clause in his contract, meaning he can veto any deal he finds objectionable. If he wanted to come to Portland and he felt like Portland would be too decimated after the trade he would simply say "No dice, try again".

Zach, Jack, Martel and a couple future 1st rounders. But I don't want Kobe.


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## stockfire (Jul 17, 2004)

Not that I am recommending Kobe in Portland, but I don't get the rational of disliking a player after he agrees to "switch sides" and help your team.

I get disliking a team/player on a rival team. He is on the Lakers. Got it. Bad.
I get disliking a Blazers who leaves to play for a rival. Probably the worst. Left us to play for them. The Horor!
But if a rival player leaves his team, a team you want nothing more to do than beat, and he comes to help your team win. How can you dislike that?

Now, I think you can dislike a player for a multitude of personal reasons, but if it makes no sense to me to dislike him because of a team affilication that was in the past when he is on your team currently.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

I'd trade Zach, pg, and picks for Kobe..then turn right around and deal him for dwade,etc.


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## ROYisR.O.Y. (Apr 1, 2007)

i think that we are a good 3 way trade partner because of Zach's contract. 

what would you guys think about that?


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## smeedemann (Jul 16, 2003)

How can people that are so down on Zach for all of his off court issues even think about wanting Kobe? I can understand that Kobe is a great player but talk about hypocritical.


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## FLORIDA MARINE (Jun 22, 2006)

You Guys Are Crazy If You Want Kobe, He Is A Cancer! A Dog In The Playoffs, Career 43% And In The Finals, Only 1 Out Of 4 Over 41%. Overrated, All Of The Talent On The World But I Wouldn't Trade The Beer Vender For Him.


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## stockfire (Jul 17, 2004)

FLORIDA MARINE said:


> I Wouldn't Trade The Beer Vender For Him.



I'd make that trade in a heartbeat.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

stockfire said:


> I'd make that trade in a heartbeat.


Or do the Ammo trade mentioned in the previous thread and then trade him for Kobe. Can Kobe fit in a Yugo?


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## Ukrainefan (Aug 1, 2003)

I'd consider trading for Kobe. What player in the NBA plays with more heart, desire and confidence? And he plays defense also. He is arrogant, but he seems to be intelligent enough to modify his behavior after whatever happened in Colorado.

Randolph, Webster, Pryzbilla, Jack or Sergio and future draft picks would do it maybe.


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## RoyToy (May 25, 2007)

the blazers would have to give up aldridge or roy, or maybe both.


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## Oil Can (May 25, 2006)

Kobe is a glamour pig. He would want a big market. I think that NY, LA, Chicago and maybe SF are the only real markets he would consider worthy of himself. 

He is crying, but really he is jsut trying to spark a trade for a KG level player.


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

Stockfire... it is like marrying a women who had an affair. Do you think she will be any different the next time? Kobe will create a problem wherever he goes. In the Kobe article I just read Kobe says he'd play on Pluto. Not a far stretch for him... his ego is already there.

I would never watch the Blazers again if Kobe joined the team. I think he is the only player in the league I'd say that about.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Bryant is the best swing man in the NBA. Adding him to the Blazers would make us instant contenders.

If we can get him for Zach? No brainer, in my opinion.

PG: Roy
SG: Bryant
SF: Ime
PF: Aldridge
C: Oden

Are you kidding me? That is a top 5 NBA team right out of the gate. Add in some reasonably good bench pieces in Jack and Joel and whomever we sign for our MLE and we'd be a contender.

The beauty of it is that we'd only get better over time, too... a young team with at least two future HoFers.

I'd probably even be willing to give up Aldridge to get Kobe, if we could substitute Raef and other filler for Zach.

PG: Roy
SG: Bryant
SF: Ime
PF: Zach
C: Oden

Then re-sign Magloire to provide depth that Raef might otherwise provide...

I doubt the Lakers do either one, but the Blazers should JUMP at the chance, especially if they don't need to give up Aldridge.

Ed O.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

the guy is the most ruthless winner in the NBA. absolutely fierce competitor by any rational standard. one of the five best players on the planet. maybe even top two. 

I would gladly give up any player but Roy, Aldridge and Oden to get him. and frankly I'd have to think hard about Roy. 

I don't like his personality, but guess what? guys with that kind of competitive motor in them are often jerks. everybody respected Michael Jordan, but I really doubt many teammates liked him personally. 

I doubt LA wants to see him in the same conference. but if we could get him for only Randolph and change, man.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

I will never support Kobe even if it means deserting the Blazers.

Most worthless excuse for a human being in the league.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Ed-

it's all just wild speculation, but I actually think Roy would be more appealing to LA. after all, they have Odom and Bynum already. if they trade Bryant, they are stuck with CBA players at three positions. Roy would help out with that a lot. plus, he fits in to that Magic/Bryant mold of great ball handling guards with nice size that the Lakers have always had. 

I think it'd be easier for me to part with Roy, too. the Aldridge/Oden twin towers is just too exciting to break up before they even play a single game. 

Roy + filler for Bryant?


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## Draco (Jun 28, 2003)

I don't think Kobe is an optimal fit for the blazers. It seems like Chicago or Phx or some other team could offer a better package to LA and be a better fit for Kobe.

Nonetheless if KP can somehow get Kobe for anything except Oden, Aldridge or Roy you have absolutely no choice, you have to make the trade. It sort of reminds me of the Pippen trade where we gave up a bunch of random spare parts for Pippen.


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## stockfire (Jul 17, 2004)

Paxil said:


> Stockfire... it is like marrying a women who had an affair. Do you think she will be any different the next time? Kobe will create a problem wherever he goes. In the Kobe article I just read Kobe says he'd play on Pluto. Not a far stretch for him... his ego is already there.
> 
> I would never watch the Blazers again if Kobe joined the team. I think he is the only player in the league I'd say that about.



Interesting analogy. But I thinking marrying a woman who had an affair is akin to signing a player that has EVER played for another team. Actually, that would be like getting a virgin... Ok, so signing a journeyman, a player known to wander from team to team with disregard for anything more than a paycheck or an easy title (what is the basketball equivalent of Roger Clemens?... Robrt Horry?). Now THAT is like marring a woman who had an affair.


Signing someone in the position of Kobe would be either, marrying a woman after her and her first husband divorced or marrying a girl that you know is no good for you because you think you can change her.

Close though.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

i would throw up if we dealt roy for kobe...


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## Draco (Jun 28, 2003)

Zach, Martell, Sergio, Jack and two future 1st for Kobe works salary wise.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

I hope Portland has a badminton team, because if Kobe is a Blazer I will have to find a different sport team to follow.


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## ROYisR.O.Y. (Apr 1, 2007)

Draco said:


> Zach, Martell, Sergio, Jack and two future 1st for Kobe works salary wise.


they wouldnt take both sergio and jack, they do have an average PG in Farmar.
although i wouldnt try my hardest to get him i would def make the call.

he is the best player of our generation. i dont like the lakers but kobe is amazing to watch. the things he does day in and day out are insane.

that said. his mentality would have to change. he would have to be team kobe that scores 20 a night and dishes 8 assists.


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## yuyuza1 (May 24, 2006)

MARIS61 said:


> I will never support Kobe even if it means deserting the Blazers.
> 
> Most worthless excuse for a human being in the league.



Same here. I love the Blazers as much as anyone else, but I've hated Kobe too much for too long to support him. :hurl:


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

by the way---

we draft the Rookie of the Year, and only give up a scrub point guard to do it. 

we also pick the best big man in the same draft. 

we also pick up the likely best pg in the same draft. 

we win the lottery and get the right to draft Oden. 

Kobe Bryant demands a trade out of LA. 

man, this has got to be the best 31 win season ever.


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

There is a big difference between Bryant and Michael Jordan.

Was Jordan popular with teammates? Not always. On the Bulls, Pippen was the shoulder to cry on. Jordan was the enforcer, the one who would get in a teammate's face if he did not produce. And of course he had the authority to do so. 

But it was tolerated for one reason: Jordan made everyone around him better. The greatest players do just that. Look at the Suns and the players who were mediocre elsewhere until they started playing with Steve Nash. That is why it is said Bryant is more talented but Nash more valuable. Duncan is another like that. 

Does Kobe Bryant make others around him better? Look at the Lakers. Who on that team is playing significantly better than he did elsewhere? Has Kwame Brown turned into a deserving #1 pick? Has Bynum become a star center? What about Farmar? He beat out Jarrett Jack for the soph team but spent time in the NBDL last year. 

He may be "great" as far as stats, but he is no Michael Jordan.


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## GrandpaBlaze (Jul 11, 2004)

ROYisR.O.Y. said:


> his mentality would have to change. he would have to be team kobe that scores 20 a night and dishes 8 assists.


And the chances of that happening? Kobe has always been about Kobe, I just don't see him changing to play in a 'team' fashion.

Gramps...


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## BlazerFanFoLife (Jul 17, 2003)

i would rather hold on to roy than trade him for bryant. Roy was averaging about 5 asts 5 rebs at the end of the season which is about what bryant gets. his points are less but he shoots way less so pretty much roy and bryant are simular stat wise except for kobe shoots more. This is stat wise not how they effect the game. Kobe has a qay greater effect on the defence of the opposing team than roy does but i think roy can develope into a very solid player and he meshes with the culture of portland very well.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

crandc said:


> There is a big difference between Bryant and Michael Jordan.
> 
> Was Jordan popular with teammates? Not always. On the Bulls, Pippen was the shoulder to cry on. Jordan was the enforcer, the one who would get in a teammate's face if he did not produce. And of course he had the authority to do so.
> 
> ...


Smush Parker was playing for the Idaho Stampede before becoming a Laker. 

Kwame Brown was considered a complete bust as a Wizard. 

Andrew Bynum was the youngest player ever to play in an NBA game. he seemed to do pretty well for a second year player. 

Luke Walton and Ronny Turiaf were second round picks. most of those don't even make it in the NBA. 

just look at the pathetic roster they've put around Bryant in LA. how can you possibly say he doesn't make these guys better? for all we know, Bryant is the only reason Parker, Brown, Turiaf and Walton still have NBA careers.


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

crandc said:


> There is a big difference between Bryant and Michael Jordan.
> 
> Was Jordan popular with teammates? Not always. On the Bulls, Pippen was the shoulder to cry on. Jordan was the enforcer, the one who would get in a teammate's face if he did not produce. And of course he had the authority to do so.
> 
> ...


This post sounds more like hate on Kobe than an analysis of how he helps teams. I agree that Kobe is no Michael Jordan . . . but Nash is no Kobe Bryant. Nash with all his greatness of making players better around him (Marion, Amare, Diaw, Barbosa) hasn't won a championship . . . I think he has been to the championship series once. Kobe, not being a great player I guess, has won three championships with role players and Shaq. He took a team with a Walton as a starting SF and Parker as a starting PG to the playoffs. I don't think there is a GM in the league who doesn't think he makes a team better and teammates better.

To say that a player who has been integral in winning three championships, does not help a team get better, don't seem to go together.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

:lol: :lol: Are you people kidding...L.A. is going to get way way better offers then Zach Randolph for Kobe. We would have to throw in Aldridge, Roy or the #1 before L.A. even looked at the offer. 

I could see Minny offerring Garnett for Kobe...good deal for Minny IMO since Kobe is a few years younger. 

Dallas offerring Josh Howard and Jason Terry...

PHX offerring Amare and Barbosa...

IMO almost any offer we can make that excludes our big 3 would be way way down the list.


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

I was listening to Dan Patrick talk about the Kobe situation and weather he will end up in Chicago. When Patrick was talking about Chicago's future and how bright it looked he threw out there real quick that just in today's or yesterday's papaer, Zach has expressed a desire to go to Chicago.

Someday soon, the Blazers will matter enough that national press will take the time to get Blazer stories right (or did I miss something)


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Kiss_My_Darius said:


> Someday soon, the Blazers will matter enough that national press will take the time to get Blazer stories right (or did I miss something)


You might have missed this:

"I'd like the chance to compete for a championship, and if I was able to be with the Bulls, I think I would be able to compete for a championship." 

http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/o.../sports/118049552546150.xml&coll=7&thispage=3

He's not going out of his way to clamor for a trade to Chicago, but he did express some support for the idea...

Ed O.


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

Maybe they'll ship him to the east coast that that they'll quit their *****in about how the east needs more stars. Send him to Boston.


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## Bwatcher (Dec 31, 2002)

I would rather let the new wine age a bit....Portland has a chance to continue developing its own identity that all in the city can support. Part of the fun will be watching the young core mature and grow together. Assuming Oden is really good, then even without a Kobe, there is a good chance that the Blazers can win multiple championships. I vote for sticking with our core as is. Let Kobe try to hijack a team in some other city, though I wouldn't mind helping as a third team to facilitate his wanderings, provided the Blazers get paid well for the help!


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

Ed O said:


> You might have missed this:
> 
> "I'd like the chance to compete for a championship, and if I was able to be with the Bulls, I think I would be able to compete for a championship."
> 
> ...



Thanks. I was laughing at Patrick for slaughtering the article I read when he was actually referring to a different article. 

After the lottery, I have spent more time than ever reading this board and every Blazer article I can find . . . but I guess I haven't read them all . . .


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## RedHot&Rolling (Jun 26, 2004)

Zach and Roy for Kobe?? I'd have to consider that one seriously. Our talent would be mid-round playoffs for sure.

Would it be enough for Buss to ok??


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

mook said:


> Smush Parker was playing for the Idaho Stampede before becoming a Laker.
> 
> Kwame Brown was considered a complete bust as a Wizard.
> 
> ...


Radmanovich had better years in Seattle than next to Kobe.
Odom had better years in Clippers and Heat uniform than he ever had playing next to Kobe.
Butler was marginally better in LA than what he was in his ROOKIE year in Miami, but really blossomed once he moved to the Wizards.
Kwame Brown's production went down in LA - he is only a bust because he was the 1st draft selection - he is no star, but he is a productive NBA player (more productive away from Bryant, however).

I think there is enough evidence to consider the fact that Kobe might not be the best player in the league to play next to as far as making you better.

Kobe is a great individual player. One of the top if not the top in the NBA. But this is a team sport and I would like to point that even Ray Allen was able to take a crappy team with a competent coach and a good small forward as far in the Western Conference finals as Kobe did with the Lakers.

If you were to replace Kobe with Ray Allen for the years that Shaq was in his prime and they had Jackson as the coach I have no doubts they would have won at least 2 if not all 3 of these rings - I still think that Kobe is a better player than Ray Allen - but he should never be put in the same category as Jordan. Never.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

What gets me about Kobe is that he is responsible for breaking the Lakers through his insistance on Shaq being traded and his demands for salary that hamstring Kupchak in trying to rebuild the team. Now, when there's no instant fix on the horizon, he wants to bail. It's perfectly understandable, I suppose. He's in the prime of his career and if he doesn't get a chance to play in some more top-level playoff games, he's never going to have a chance to challenge MJ for the title of best NBA player ever, and I truly believe that that is his main goal in life.

I want nothing to do with the guy.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

mook said:


> Smush Parker was playing for the Idaho Stampede before becoming a Laker.
> 
> Kwame Brown was considered a complete bust as a Wizard.
> 
> ...


Yeah, those guys aren't good examples. But Lamar Odom and Caron Butler are. Odom seemed to get worse when he came to LA, and Butler better when he left. Even if that change was marginal at most, Kobe still isn't making anyone better like Jordan and Nash do. Those guys controlled the ball like maestros and are great leaders, getting everyone to play right.

Kobe still helps his team win, for sure, but that's because he is the most talented and gifted player in league right now. He has the skills and he plays hard (on offense), he just doesn't seem to have a good grasp on how and when to get his teammates involved. That and his effort on defense are the only thing that really separates him from Jordan, IMO.

I still wouldn't want him on the team though, but just because I don't personally like him. We could possibly trade Roy and Randolph for him and be a championship team, but he will always be lavender and urine stained to me.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

sa1177 said:


> :lol: :lol: Are you people kidding...L.A. is going to get way way better offers then Zach Randolph for Kobe. We would have to throw in Aldridge, Roy or the #1 before L.A. even looked at the offer.
> 
> I could see Minny offerring Garnett for Kobe...good deal for Minny IMO since Kobe is a few years younger.
> 
> ...


Kobe is 2 years younger than KG. That isn't a "few".

Kobe being in many more playoff games has played 910 games in his career. KG, 974. Kobe's mileage is not so much less that it means a whole lot. When you consider that bigs have been far more likely to have extended careers, I would say some gms consider the age issue a wash between the two.

Kobe has a trade kicker. $8 million in his pocket due when the trade occurs. Minny is not overflowing with loose cash. They are on a budget.

Thus, why would Minny be interested?

Kobe has a no-trade clause. Why would he approve a trade to Minny?

Dallas is interesting. Rumor is they are seeing what they can get for Jason Terry. They aren't shopping Howard, but they have to consider it if they can get Kobe, while Dirk is still in his prime. Kobe and Dirk and a bunch of quality role players could be formidable. Or, even more interesting, does Dallas trade Dirk for Kobe plus a sweetener?

Phoenix would offer Amare why again? They lose the possibility of an inside-out game which is a recipie for success. If they want to move Amare it's because his knee is funky, in which case L.A. doesn't want him.

No, Phoenix would want to send Marion and sweeteners. Say, Kobe and filler, for Marion, Barbosa and the Atlanta pick they are owed. L.A. would have to consider that deal. Though they prefer sending Kobe back East.

Chicago is the team that would suit Kobe (the ultimate wannabe Jordan destination), suit the Lakers (send him back East), and could work for all parties. Kobe for resigned PJ Brown (salary filler), Deng and Gordon. Or, swap Deng for Thomas and the #9 07 pick. Either way, Chicago still has a good team and the Lakers get good value in a forced trade.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

e_blazer1 said:


> What gets me about Kobe is that he is responsible for breaking the Lakers through his insistance on Shaq being traded and his demands for salary that hamstring Kupchak in trying to rebuild the team. Now, when there's no instant fix on the horizon, he wants to bail. It's perfectly understandable, I suppose. He's in the prime of his career and if he doesn't get a chance to play in some more top-level playoff games, he's never going to have a chance to challenge MJ for the title of best NBA player ever, and I truly believe that that is his main goal in life.
> 
> I want nothing to do with the guy.


I very much doubt this is a correct assesment of what went on.


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## Draco (Jun 28, 2003)

Chicago, Phoenix or Dallas would be my best guess of where he would go if he did get traded. You need a team that has pieces LA would want but also a team that would still have enough talent left after a trade to be a competitor with Kobe. KG would obviously not work because both teams would still suck ***. Dallas is looking to shake something up, Kobe for Howard and Terry could work.


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## Spoolie Gee (Feb 3, 2005)

e_blazer1 said:


> *What gets me about Kobe is that he is responsible for breaking the Lakers through his insistance on Shaq being traded and his demands for salary that hamstring Kupchak in trying to rebuild the team.* Now, when there's no instant fix on the horizon, he wants to bail. It's perfectly understandable, I suppose. He's in the prime of his career and if he doesn't get a chance to play in some more top-level playoff games, he's never going to have a chance to challenge MJ for the title of best NBA player ever, and I truly believe that that is his main goal in life.
> 
> I want nothing to do with the guy.



You're wrong. This is why Kobe is asking for a trade. He didnt demand for them to trade Shaq and the Lakers lied to him about rebuilding. Read some of the articles about this.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

The question is what kind of strategy LA will pursue if they trade Kobe. There are pretty much two discrete options:

1) They seeks to get back as much veteran talent as possible and remain a competitive team. If they get a nice all-sat or near all-star player and some good veteran depth and sign a good MLE free agent they could potentially remain a playoff team going forward.

2) They go for a complete rebuild. IMO they are in prime position to make this happen. Trade Kobe for a great picks and/or young players plus more picks and veterans who will expire in the next year or two. The team will totally suck for the next two years and harvest some great players from the draft as a result, to pair with whatever draft picks they pick up in the Kobe trade. Then on top of their pile of young talent, they lure a top FA in 2009 or 2010 with the glitter of Hollywood and their piles of cap space (their biggest contract then could be Vlad Rad's MLE deal).

If I were them, I'd pick door #2. Rebuilding is tough, but with the stupid way the NBA draft is set up it is very often successful.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

Masbee said:


> Kobe is 2 years younger than KG. That isn't a "few".
> 
> Kobe being in many more playoff games has played 910 games in his career. KG, 974. Kobe's mileage is not so much less that it means a whole lot. When you consider that bigs have been far more likely to have extended careers, I would say some gms consider the age issue a wash between the two.
> 
> ...


Pretty good analysis...I still think two can be considered "a few" though. :biggrin: If not then what is? 3+??


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

Reading this thread has forced me to lose alot of respect for some of you. It's one thing to hate everything Ohio State if you are a Michigan fan or everything Beavers if you're a Duck. But to say that you would no longer support the Blazers is absolutely rediculous! I am a lifelong Blazers fan, born and raised in Northeast P-Town, long-time Laker hater! But Kobe Bryant is the most dominating player in the NBA. The reality of us landing Kobe without giving up BRoy or LaMarcus is slim, but if we could trade them ZBO, 5 other players and next years #1........do it! How could you not cheer for our Blazers with that line-up. I was at the Laker game in LA when he lit us up for 65 this year..........breath taking! As much as I hate everything Laker, he could do that for my Blazers' any time! Bring me Kobe!


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

Hell no, to putting Roy in a trade for Kobe. The Lakers are not bargaining in a position of strength in this trade. I'd offer them Zach, Jack and next years 1st pick, that's it. There aren't many teams in a position to top that.


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## YardApe (Mar 10, 2005)

Here's how I see it, Kobe just watched Portland become the future of the west. Oden and Roy are the new one two punch for years to come. Kobe has no help and he can't get the job done the way it stands. Of course he wants out! He wont win in LA for years. Time for Kobe to go east cause the power in the west has now shifted for many years to come.

Whatever San Antonio doesn't win in the next three years, Dallas, Pheonix and now Portland will clean up. The Lakers are done and Kobe knows it!

Time for his acting to kick in, cause Kobe hates to lose and LA is a loser now!


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## ryanjend22 (Jan 23, 2004)

B_&_B said:


> No matter how good he is, no thanks to Kobe the rapist.


smh @ thinking he raped that trifling whore...


i'm alllllllllll for a sign and trade for zach and anyone else except Aldridge, Sergio, Roy, and the #1 (Oden). we win a championship, next year, with Kobe. It's a pipe dream anyway.


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

Kobe just gave a lengthy (and candid) interview with Patrick. I caught a little more than half of it . . . Kobe isn't going anywhere, he is just frustrated with management.

Love him or hate him (seems to be one or the other with him), he is one of the better spoken superstars in the NBA.


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

I just couldn't get over the rape thing, and HispanicCausinPanic, to bring in that kind of a player seems to go 100% against the direction we are headed. Why screw up a good thing by trying to take a shortcut. 

As for Kobe claiming he had nothing to do with Shaq's departure... I'd like to hear some Laker's fans perspective on that. I vaguely remember it basically being Shaq is leaving or Kobe is. Laker's probably felt Shaq was past his prime and went with the more valuable player. I'm am not an expert on Laker affairs, but even if the situation was exactly like Kobe described today, I still don't think that proves that he didn't influence the departure of Shaq. If it was one or the other... and it sure seemed like that to me... because Kobe was halfway out the door until they tell him Shaq is being traded and then... whoops... ok... I am back now. Again, Kobe may not have demanded Shaq be traded at all... but that still doesn't mean he didn't cause it to happen. As for what Kobe claims Buss said... about calling into the hotel room and telling him they were not going to resign Shaq, I don't doubt that one bit. Exactly what I would have done if I were Buss too, and a pretty smart way to get Kobe back into the fold all the while allowing Kobe's Texas-sized ego to remain fully inflated.

We could look up numerous similar threads from when Kobe was a free agent a few years back and we'd see that many of our views are exactly the same now as they were then.


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## BlazerFan22 (Jul 4, 2006)

Would you do this trade. Blazers recieve: Kobe Bryant

Lakers recieve: LaMarcus Aldridge, Zach Randolph and Freddy Jones/Jarret Jack and a 2nd rounder


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## BealzeeBob (Jan 6, 2003)

My mind says yes, ZR/JJ/08 first is a no-brainer. That team would win multiple championships. But my heart says no way will I EVER cheer for KB.

Go Blazers


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## Draco (Jun 28, 2003)

BlazerFan22 said:


> Would you do this trade. Blazers recieve: Kobe Bryant
> 
> Lakers recieve: LaMarcus Aldridge, Zach Randolph and Freddy Jones/Jarret Jack and a 2nd rounder


No. I don't want to give up LMA, Oden, or Roy for Kobe. That probably means PDX misses out on getting Kobe. Fine let Chicago or Dallas get him.

I question how happy Kobe would be here long term in a smaller market and how well he would mesh with our players to give up one of our big 3.


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## RW#30 (Jan 1, 2003)

I would only do this if the Lakers would take Zach and Miles. (I am sure it would not work under the salary cap). Let the Lakers suffer and waste 4 more years of Kobe's career without the playoff. I would not scrifice Roy or Aldridge for Kobe. Barkley was traded for Jeff Horny, West and an other scrub. It can be done. Unfortunatly other teams have more to offer. i.e. Seattle with #2 and S&T Lewis.
Thus he is one of the best in the league, I rather see the Lakers circle the drain. With Portland, Memphis, GS and Seattle getting better the Lakers are looking at rebuilding and Kobe will be 33-35 before they will compete for the west. Bye-bye Lakers. Enjoy the lottery. With still a semi good team picking #12 for the next 4 years. :clap: :clap:


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Im just reading your guys posts and some of them are ridiculous. Some of you actually dont want Kobe?!? Do you guys have any idea how much b.s. he had to deal with?!? Minus Kobe the Lakers have one of if not the worst lineup in the NBA. He is not a ball hog. Me being a laker fan thought that at one time but Kobe knew what barley anybody else did...his teammates almost all suck!!! It is sorta hard to justify passing to Smush Parker(complete garbage) or Kwame(hands of stone), or Sasha(stagefright) when you know they are gonna do some bone headed play! To his credit he tried, there were games this year where Kobe took only 1 to 3 shots in the first quarter trying to get his teammates involved and when they were playing good he would keep going to them. All year I saw him encourage teammates doing right plays and trying to teah them a thing or two. If you guys wanna know how it is the Lakers front office and not Kobe screwing us Laker fans over, then listen to his radio interview on 570AM KLAC, they have it posted on their website. FYI. Not that it will happen but Roy and Oden would have to be dealt.


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## ProZach (Oct 13, 2005)

B_&_B said:


> Kobe is on our favorite reporter Stephen A Smith's radio show right now in New York and Kobe just said "I want to be traded".


I think the important question here is - Why were you listening to Stephen A Smith's radio show??? That bothers me. Don't do it again.



B_&_B said:


> Anyone feel sorry for Laker fans right now? :lol:


No.


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

I'd rather forfeit the #1 pick if it meant keeping Kobe Bryant out of Portland.


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## Draco (Jun 28, 2003)

DaRizzle said:


> FYI. Not that it will happen but Roy and Oden would have to be dealt.


Its good to know that Oden alone won't be enough for us to get Kobe.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

DaRizzle said:


> FYI. Not that it will happen but Roy and Oden would have to be dealt.


Why would anyone in their right mind deal a potential franchise big man for a wing that proved he can not do it without a great big man to carry the load?

Lets say that Aldridge/Zach/Jack is a better supporting cast than the Odom/Walton/Brown and the rest of the Lakers misfits. At best, this line gets you to the conference finals where it has no chance of winning in 7 games over the Spurs. Most likely - it will get you the to conference semi finals and will succumb to a Phoenix or Spurs or Dallas or Rockets (with a proper coach) that you will meet there.

Oden has proved nothing but Kobe proved he can not do it without major help - so you basically have to ask yourself - do I want to bet on Aldridge becoming good enough to go over the Duncans or Yao Mings of the world as Kobe's number 2 and hope it happens in the shorter time frame that Kobe is still in his prime - or do you roll the dice on Oden becoming the next big center that will grow with a great core of Aldridge, Roy and company.

I think you would be crazy to go with Kobe over Oden in the situation the Blazers are in right now. I can see it with Chicago with Wallace's days numbered, I can see it with PHX during Nash's last days or maybe New Jersey shipping Carter and Jefferson to pair Kobe with Kidd while he still has some juice - but with Portland being as young as they are and with a potential for a dynasty - you roll the dice on Oden.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

"Oden has proved nothing but Kobe proved he can not do it without major help" by andalusian 

Major Help? Every great player has needed great ROLE players. Odom tries hard but is too injury prone, Smush is an idiot, and need I explain Kwame. Lakers trade Caron for Kwame?!? Draft a 19 year old?!? Sign Vlad Rad for 5 years at 25 mil?!? This is all the front offices doing, not Kobe. Kobe is the greatest player in the game and if you think otherwise then you don't know the game of basketball period. Any fan being honest with themselves should know that.
(Need I remind everyone of the amazingly good "supporting cast" Jordan had, one of which was named the top 50 players of all time.)Kobe's supporting cast minus a few are a bunch of stiffs.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

By the way I totally understand why you guys wouldn't trade for Kobe. You guys do have a great young team, but some of the reasons given were not that, and any of those (ballhog, rapist, just hate him, etc.) are stupid.


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## cokeplease (Jun 3, 2006)

Masbee said:


> Kobe has a no-trade clause. Why would he approve a trade to Minny?


Didnt he ask to be traded unless they bring west back? I think thats why he would approve that trade...


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## cokeplease (Jun 3, 2006)

DaRizzle said:


> By the way I totally understand why you guys wouldn't trade for Kobe. You guys do have a great young team, but some of the reasons given were not that, and any of those (ballhog, rapist, just hate him, etc.) are stupid.


It's too bad you will never understand a blazer fans' hatred towards the lakers. "Hating Kobe" falls under the idea that he has been a nemisis to the blazers for years and it would be the ultimate betrayal to many portland fans. The only time i like to see Kobe is when he is walking into the tunnel after a deafeat at the rose garden.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

DaRizzle said:


> By the way I totally understand why you guys wouldn't trade for Kobe. You guys do have a great young team, but some of the reasons given were not that, and any of those (*ballhog, rapist, just hate him, etc.*) are stupid.


I think those are great reasons for us not to want Kobe on the Blazers. You think it would take Oden, I think a package of Roy and Randolph would probably beat any offer the Lakers would get, and I still wouldn't want that deal.

Kobe is the best player in the world, by some standards, but I've never heard anyone call him the best teammate. Why do you think that is?


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

Spoolie Gee said:


> You're wrong. This is why Kobe is asking for a trade. He didnt demand for them to trade Shaq and the Lakers lied to him about rebuilding. Read some of the articles about this.


I probably overstated my case in saying that Kobe demanded that Shaq be traded, but it was pretty clear that the two could no longer co-exist because of their feud. Kobe was a free agent and began talking with the Clippers about signing with them. Phil Jackson's contract was not renewed, supposedly in a move to placate Kobe, and that lead to Shaq to think that management was siding with Kobe and he demanded a trade. However you want to look at it, it's pretty clear that Kobe was intent on being "the man" with the Lakers and didn't want to share the limelight with Shaq. The Lakers with Shaq would still be a tough team in the West. I don't understand why Laker fans still support Kobe.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> :lol: :lol: Are you people kidding...L.A. is going to get way way better offers then Zach Randolph for Kobe.


They won't even get an offer of Zach.

I'll guarantee it.

With all his money, Kobe couldn't buy a spot on the Blazers.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Paxil said:


> I would never watch the Blazers again if Kobe joined the team. I think he is the only player in the league I'd say that about.


I second that emotion. Although, give me a couple of years and I'm pretty sure LeBron will be there. There's just something... insufferable about him. (The Ira Newble Petition and Bruce Bowen Lecture stories certainly don't help.)


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

e_blazer1 said:


> I don't understand why Laker fans still support Kobe.



I really do not think Kobe was responsible for Shaq leaving town . . . Buss didn't want to dish out the cash for Shaq. 

Kobe was silent the first time he was accused of running Shaq out of town, but not this time. He is very firm and candid about his conversation with Buss and how it went down.

I think because of Kobe's arrogance, fans pin a lot on him that he has nothing to do with. And like Zach, Kobe comes to camp in shape and dedicated to his game and winning.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

I guess none of us were there to know exactly what went down, KMD, but Shaq still had two years on his contract when he asked to be traded. I will always believe that Kobe's ego wouldn't tolerate a situation where someone could say about him that he was a great player, but he couldn't win without the big guy. Problem is, so far that's proved to be the case.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

e_blazer1 said:


> I probably overstated my case in saying that Kobe demanded that Shaq be traded, but it was pretty clear that the two could no longer co-exist because of their feud. Kobe was a free agent and began talking with the Clippers about signing with them. Phil Jackson's contract was not renewed, supposedly in a move to placate Kobe, and that lead to Shaq to think that management was siding with Kobe and he demanded a trade. However you want to look at it, it's pretty clear that Kobe was intent on being "the man" with the Lakers and didn't want to share the limelight with Shaq. The Lakers with Shaq would still be a tough team in the West. I don't understand why Laker fans still support Kobe.


The feud definitely couldn't have helped things. Buss didn't want to pay Shaq $30m/year, but he re-signed with Miami for $20m/year. Shaq was happy, so he was willing to take a third less. I don't know if we should blame Kobe for making Shaq unhappy to be in LA, but why else would he have been? He got to win championships and make movies and rap albums. It doesn't seem logical to blame the money, because he signed with Miami for less money.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

meru said:


> I second that emotion. Although, give me a couple of years and I'm pretty sure LeBron will be there. There's just something... insufferable about him. (The Ira Newble Petition and Bruce Bowen Lecture stories certainly don't help.)


No wonder why your franchise has sucked for so long. You guys think with your heart and not your brains. Your team falling to shambles in the 4th quarter of game 7 in the WCF was a long time ago...let it go. Just because Kobe and teammates ripped the heart out of your organization and stomped on it doesn't mean you shouldn't want him if you didn't have to disassemble your team. By reading some of these posts I feel better as a Laker fan knowing that you guys will figure out a way to screw up this great young team you have.:yay:


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

DaRizzle said:


> Im just reading your guys posts and some of them are ridiculous. Some of you actually dont want Kobe?!? Do you guys have any idea how much b.s. he had to deal with?!?


When exactly was this? When he demanded as a rookie to be traded to the Lakers? When he threatened to sign with the Clippers but mysteriously changed his mind after Shaq was traded? When everyone on the planet knew he hated Shaq and longed for him to be gone so that he could be "the man", but discovered that it wasn't so easy? If you buy all the self-righteous horsesh*t this pampered sex-offender is spewing right now, you're unbelievably naive.



> Minus Kobe the Lakers have one of if not the worst lineup in the NBA. He is not a ball hog. Me being a laker fan thought that at one time but Kobe knew what barley anybody else did...his teammates almost all suck!!!


Lamar Odom does not suck. He's injury prone, but a great talent. And when Bryant actually did what Phil said and gave the ball to Kwame Brown against the Suns last year, they nearly got an upset.

Boo hoo for Kobe. He gets to play on a stacked team for at least five years and is now all sad that it has declined, partly because he could never get along with Shaq. (Maybe if he had, Shaq wouldn't have made as extravagant salary demands and scared off Jerry "dirty old man" Buss.) I'm sure Kevin Garnett really feels his pain.



> All year I saw him encourage teammates doing right plays and trying to teah them a thing or two. If you guys wanna know how it is the Lakers front office and not Kobe screwing us Laker fans over, then listen to his radio interview on 570AM KLAC, they have it posted on their website. FYI.


And because of his charming personality and all-around leadership skills, I'm sure they were all ears. 

I've got better things to do than to listen to multi-millionaires who are paid extravagant sums to play a game whine about how they've been dissed.



> Not that it will happen but Roy and Oden would have to be dealt.


Oh would they? I guess you don't really believe Kobe's threat then, because if he's serious about never playing for the Lakers again, then they'll be lucky to get offered Nate Robinson.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

DaRizzle said:


> No wonder why your franchise has sucked for so long. You guys think with your heart and not your brains. Your team falling to shambles in the 4th quarter of game 7 in the WCF was a long time ago...let it go. Just because Kobe and teammates ripped the heart out of your organization and stomped on it doesn't mean you shouldn't want him if you didn't have to disassemble your team. By reading some of these posts I feel better as a Laker fan knowing that you guys will figure out a way to screw up this great young team you have.:yay:


Yeah, we'll just have to console ourselves with Oden, Aldridge and Roy, while the Lakers have the mighty Bynum and whatever they get in trade for Kobe. Woe is us... :lol:


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

DaRizzle said:


> No wonder why your franchise has sucked for so long. You guys think with your heart and not your brains. Your team falling to shambles in the 4th quarter of game 7 in the WCF was a long time ago...let it go. Just because Kobe and teammates ripped the heart out of your organization and stomped on it doesn't mean you shouldn't want him if you didn't have to disassemble your team. By reading some of these posts I feel better as a Laker fan knowing that you guys will figure out a way to screw up this great young team you have.:yay:



Since you seem to have it all figured out, maybe somewhere along the lines you will figure out that the GM doesn't post on this board . . . I know hard concept to grasp, but try to process that. 

Meanwhile (straight from the players mouth and not a poster on a basketball forum) the Laker's best player just demanded to be traded because management sucks and the owner is a liar . . . and you think Ptd management is going to screw things up????


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

DaRizzle said:


> "Oden has proved nothing but Kobe proved he can not do it without major help" by andalusian
> 
> Major Help? Every great player has needed great ROLE players. Odom tries hard but is too injury prone, Smush is an idiot, and need I explain Kwame. Lakers trade Caron for Kwame?!? Draft a 19 year old?!? Sign Vlad Rad for 5 years at 25 mil?!? This is all the front offices doing, not Kobe. Kobe is the greatest player in the game and if you think otherwise then you don't know the game of basketball period. Any fan being honest with themselves should know that.
> (Need I remind everyone of the amazingly good "supporting cast" Jordan had, one of which was named the top 50 players of all time.)Kobe's supporting cast minus a few are a bunch of stiffs.


and if you deal Roy and Oden and whatever is needed to match salaries from Portland for Kobe - his supporting cast is going to be marginally better than what he currently has in LA - which makes it utterly stupid for Portland to do it.

Given this - any deal that includes Oden for Kobe is bad for Portland. Simple as that.


Let us also forget about the nonsense of Kobe being the greatest player in basketball. Tim Duncan is the best player in basketball. Period, end stop. He is doing it year in year out, he is on his way to his 4th ring and would have been on his way to his 6th if it was not for a miracle shot by Fisher and a stupid foul by Manu.

Kobe is a great player, but the best in basketball? Absurd.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

*


meru said:



When exactly was this? When he demanded as a rookie to be traded to the Lakers? When he threatened to sign with the Clippers but mysteriously changed his mind after Shaq was traded? When everyone on the planet knew he hated Shaq and longed for him to be gone so that he could be "the man", but discovered that it wasn't so easy? If you buy all the self-righteous horsesh*t this pampered sex-offender is spewing right now, you're unbelievably naive.

Click to expand...

*


meru said:


> West pulled the deal for Kobe. Do you really think some high school student has any influence?!? He was a free agent, he has every right to test the waters. Dr. Buss told Kobe he was getting rid of Shaq no matter what Kobe did. Sex offender? More like cheating on his wife and having the slut trying to make some money. I don't know what the result was but the DA was in the process of getting punished or losing his job because of this baseless case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He isn't serious, he is frustrated. Your other comment is just retarded.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Above is posted by me responding to meru...not him


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

HispanicCausinPanic said:


> Reading this thread has forced me to lose alot of respect for some of you. It's one thing to hate everything Ohio State if you are a Michigan fan or everything Beavers if you're a Duck. But to say that you would no longer support the Blazers is absolutely rediculous! I am a lifelong Blazers fan, born and raised in Northeast P-Town, long-time Laker hater! But Kobe Bryant is the most dominating player in the NBA. The reality of us landing Kobe without giving up BRoy or LaMarcus is slim, but if we could trade them ZBO, 5 other players and next years #1........do it! How could you not cheer for our Blazers with that line-up. I was at the Laker game in LA when he lit us up for 65 this year..........breath taking! As much as I hate everything Laker, he could do that for my Blazers' any time! Bring me Kobe!


Although I rank Kobe the anal-rapist/liar/aldulterer/ballhog much lower than you do talent and skill-wise, somewhere in the 10-30 best current player range, that's not any part of my decision.

He belongs in jail, he destroyed a young girl's life, and he has no redeeming values as a human being.

None at all.

The supposed "JailBlazers" have never suited up anyone anywhere near as evil and disgusting as Bryant and if they ever do then what really is the point of supporting them? It would mean they have lied to us for the last 5 years (which is why it ain't gona happen) about the pledge, the culture, the whole good citizen routine.


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## Spud147 (Jul 15, 2005)

I hate Kobe as much as any Blazer fan but I can still see that any GM (including KP) has to consider a trade if it's offered up. The last few years Kobe has been on teams with extremely limited talent. He's managed, almost single handedly, to drag them into the play offs (unlike KG). Lamar is the only decent player around him and he's no superstar. 

If you take Kobe's unbearable personality out of the equation and just look at his freakish athleticism and proven winning ability you've got to think LA would have 29 GMs lining up to trade for him. If he really is demanding a trade that does make it more difficult for LA to get equal value back but I still think they'd get a lot of decent offers (and they'd be way better than Zach and a 2nd round pick). Kobe still has quite a few "contending" years in him, I can see considering something like Zach and Aldridge for Kobe... the salaries work. LA isn't getting equal value back but they are getting a lot of scoring/rebounding and a young guy with a huge amount of potential. If you take the emotion out of it and just look at this objectively, KP has to take close look at this deal.

As much as it would gag me to see him in red and black... a team with Kobe, Roy, and Oden looks like a team that is going to be able to compete in the play offs immediately and could potentially win the title in a couple years. 

Also, I actually think that Kobe would fit in with the players we have on the team. He seems to get frustrated with his team mates when they don't perform and then loses trust in them, that's when he becomes a ball hog. He's clearly a very intelligent person and player. He understands that he needs to involve everyone to win. We have potential starters in Roy, Jack, and Oden who are known for their work ethic and intelligence. I think he'd probably do fine here except for the small market thing.


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## ProZach (Oct 13, 2005)

DaRizzle said:


> No wonder why your franchise has sucked for so long. You guys think with your heart and not your brains. Your team falling to shambles in the 4th quarter of game 7 in the WCF was a long time ago...let it go. Just because Kobe and teammates ripped the heart out of your organization and stomped on it doesn't mean you shouldn't want him if you didn't have to disassemble your team. By reading some of these posts I feel better as a Laker fan knowing that you guys will figure out a way to screw up this great young team you have.:yay:


Why do you care so much whether or not Portland fans want to trade for Kobe? Talk about irrelevent. Whether our reasons are personal or not, Kobe isn't going to be a Blazer. I personally don't believe he's a rapist, just like the Duke players weren't. But I don't know.

At any rate, he's already backed off his statements and will probably remain in L.A.

And our franchise hasn't sucked THAT long... We did make the playoffs for two and a half decades (give or take), so these lottery years were bound to happen eventually.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

All these comments are making me laugh. Do you guys REALLY believe all this or just trying to push my buttons? Patterson, a CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER for messing around with a CHILD was on your team. You guys are in a different league when it comes to questionable character players, specifically the NFL. Kobe just cheated on his wife, bad, but not the first time anybody has done that. The chick had somebody else's "deposit" on her three hours after the supposed rape. Honestly, you guys are idiots up in Oregon when it comes to bball, lay off the weed and magic mushrooms.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Spud147 said:


> I hate Kobe as much as any Blazer fan but I can still see that any GM (including KP) has to consider a trade if it's offered up. The last few years Kobe has been on teams with extremely limited talent. He's managed, almost single handedly, to drag them into the play offs (unlike KG). Lamar is the only decent player around him and he's no superstar.
> 
> If you take Kobe's unbearable personality out of the equation and just look at his freakish athleticism and proven winning ability you've got to think LA would have 29 GMs lining up to trade for him. If he really is demanding a trade that does make it more difficult for LA to get equal value back but I still think they'd get a lot of decent offers (and they'd be way better than Zach and a 2nd round pick). Kobe still has quite a few "contending" years in him, I can see considering something like Zach and Aldridge for Kobe... the salaries work. LA isn't getting equal value back but they are getting a lot of scoring/rebounding and a young guy with a huge amount of potential. If you take the emotion out of it and just look at this objectively, KP has to take close look at this deal.
> 
> ...


This guy gets it. If this guy was your GM I would be scared as a Laker fan, but he isn't, so Im not


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Kiss_My_Darius said:


> Since you seem to have it all figured out, maybe somewhere along the lines you will figure out that the GM doesn't post on this board . . . I know hard concept to grasp, but try to process that.


So then i guess you are implying you are a bunch of idiots for the most part since you are saying your GM wouldn't agree with all these opinions you fans have given. Well said


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

MARIS61 said:


> Although I rank Kobe the anal-rapist/liar/aldulterer/ballhog much lower than you do talent and skill-wise, somewhere in the 10-30 best current player range, that's not any part of my decision.
> 
> He belongs in jail, he destroyed a young girl's life, and he has no redeeming values as a human being.
> 
> ...


I can respect your opinion about him off the court, but you can't be serious about your opinion of him on it. I would like you to name the 9 other players that you believe are better then Kobe Bryant. And before you answer, would you want any of your 9 players to have the ball with the game on the line in their hands and not Kobe's?


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

I hate Kobe, but there's no denying his talents. Aside from Jordan, I don't think I've ever seen a player as offensively talented as he is.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

DaRizzle said:


> Honestly, you guys are idiots up in Oregon when it comes to bball, lay off the weed and magic mushrooms.


Says the hip-hop wannabe suburbanite who calls himself "DaRizzle" and goes around calling people idiots on an internet forum. Talk all the trash you want kid, but the Blazers have a dynasty and don't need Kobe, the Lakers are weak with or without him, and all your protest doesn't make Kobe any less selfish or any less of a rapist. Have a great day.


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## Blazed (May 24, 2006)

Kiss_My_Darius said:


> I really do not think Kobe was responsible for Shaq leaving town . . . Buss didn't want to dish out the cash for Shaq.
> 
> Kobe was silent the first time he was accused of running Shaq out of town, but not this time. He is very firm and candid about his conversation with Buss and how it went down.
> 
> I think because of Kobe's arrogance, fans pin a lot on him that he has nothing to do with. And like Zach, Kobe comes to camp in shape and dedicated to his game and winning.


Shaq has come out and said that Kobe is 1000% (yes, one thousand percent) correct about why he was traded to the Heat.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

HispanicCausinPanic said:


> I can respect your opinion about him off the court, but you can't be serious about your opinion of him on it. I would like you to name the 9 other players that you believe are better then Kobe Bryant. And before you answer, would you want any of your 9 players to have the ball with the game on the line in their hands and not Kobe's?


In no particular order, KG, SHAQ, STEVE NASH, TIM DUNCAN, YAO MING, LEBRON JAMES, JASON KIDD, DIRK NOWITZKI, AMARE STOUDEMIRE, CARMELLO ANTHONY, BRANDON ROY, RAY ALLEN...


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## Draco (Jun 28, 2003)

I love how people are claiming Kobe is the best player ever and hands down the best player in the NBA.

Kobe has played 11 season in the NBA. He has 0 MVP's.


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

MARIS61 said:


> In no particular order, KG, SHAQ, STEVE NASH, TIM DUNCAN, YAO MING, LEBRON JAMES, JASON KIDD, DIRK NOWITZKI, AMARE STOUDEMIRE, CARMELLO ANTHONY, BRANDON ROY, RAY ALLEN...


WOW! To each his own my man, to each his own.


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## cokeplease (Jun 3, 2006)

HispanicCausinPanic said:


> I can respect your opinion about him off the court, but you can't be serious about your opinion of him on it. I would like you to name the 9 other players that you believe are better then Kobe Bryant. And before you answer, would you want any of your 9 players to have the ball with the game on the line in their hands and not Kobe's?


I'll take Nash over Kobe any day. Let him drive then dump it to Amare for a behind the back no look Dunk!


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## NOODLESTYLE (Jan 20, 2005)

On a serious note, for the right price...

would the Portland fans who chanted "KOBE SUCKS"....would you welcome KOBE to Portland? Paul Allen can do whatever it takes to make Kobe happy.


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## ProZach (Oct 13, 2005)

MARIS61 said:


> In no particular order, KG, SHAQ, STEVE NASH, TIM DUNCAN, YAO MING, LEBRON JAMES, JASON KIDD, DIRK NOWITZKI, AMARE STOUDEMIRE, CARMELLO ANTHONY, BRANDON ROY, RAY ALLEN...



Wow, you're drinking some serious haterade, my man, if you genuinely believe what you wrote.



Draco said:


> I love how people are claiming Kobe is the best player ever and hands down the best player in the NBA.
> 
> Kobe has played 11 season in the NBA. He has 0 MVP's.


Best player ever is Jordan, but Kobe is pretty special. He's a nine time all-star, two time all-star MVP, he's been on the all-defense team seven times (1st team 5 times), on the all nba team 9 times (1st team 5 times) and has been in the running for MVP of the leauge multiple times. Oh and he's got three championship rings... Name any of the Blazers who have accomplished 5% of that... Too hard? How about 2% of that?

I agree in that I don't think he'd fit in here and he definitely isn't coming here, but c'mon, you guys are being just a little silly with your criticism. And this from someone who hates the Lakers with a passion.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

Wow.

It is one thing to dislike Kobe.....but claiming he isn't a top tier player?


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

man, I'm embarrassed for some of my fellow Blazer fans. it's one thing to "hate" a player, but you have to acknowledge greatness when you see it. Kobe Bryant isn't Jordan (nobody ever will be), but he's an amazing competitor. 

the current Lakers squad is an incredible sad sack of players. that he clawed and dragged that motley lot into the playoffs is a greater testament to his abilities than the three rings. heck, Vince Carter quit on a team with more opportunity. 

you may not like him personally. I know I don't. but as a fan of competitive sports, you have to really respect his career to date. 

I normally don't like to see superstars demand trades, but I don't begrudge Bryant (or Garnett, should he choose to) doing so. next year's team projects to be worse than the one three years ago. there comes a point where you have to realize that management has no intention of helping you compete again for relevance, let alone a title.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

MARIS61 said:


> He belongs in jail, he destroyed a young girl's life, and he has no redeeming values as a human being.
> 
> None at all.


if only you were god. why do some people think they know so much more than they do?

it astound me reading through this thread. i can honestly say i hate kobe and the lakers as much as any blazer fans, but some of the posts here are ridiculous. i'm a blazers fan. only team i love and only team i'll ever love. any player that is willing to wear a blazers uni and go out there and *help the team win* will have my support. kobe can do that almost as well as any player in the nba. i'll take that.


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

Kobe Bryant is amazingly talented. As an individual.
He has shown himself not a good teammate, or citizen.
I don't want him on my favorite team. Not because he's a Laker. Because he's a jerk.
I am glad that the scenario is extremely unlikely since Bryant won't want to come to Portland and I don't think Pritchard is going after him.
I feel no reason to be embarrassed about that opinion.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

crandc said:


> Kobe Bryant is amazingly talented. As an individual.
> He has shown himself not a good teammate, or citizen.


He's showed himself not to be a good teammate?

When? When he was winning championships? Or when he was dragging Smush Parker, Andrew Bynum, et al, into the playoffs?

That's silly.

Ed O.


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## NOODLESTYLE (Jan 20, 2005)

Ed O said:


> He's showed himself not to be a good teammate?
> 
> When? When he was winning championships? Or when he was dragging Smush Parker, Andrew Bynum, et al, into the playoffs?
> 
> ...


probably his hours of dedication in practice to improve his skills. Thus neglecting the fact that he isn't out with the "BOYS" drinking, getting high, or clubbing or whatever they do with all their money.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

Ed O said:


> He's showed himself not to be a good teammate?
> 
> When? When he was winning championships? Or when he was dragging Smush Parker, Andrew Bynum, et al, into the playoffs?


I think she was going for "he does not make his teammates better" - which seems to be supported by empirical evidence.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Kobe is one of the best passing shooting guards ever. He meshed well with Shaq, on the court, which is what allowed championships to be won. On his current terrible teams, he spends time trying to get his teammates involved, only to see them miss open shots. Being a good on-court leader means being a good decision-maker, and most of the time, calling his own number is the best option. It's not fair to call him selfish for that, when he's the highest efficiency scorer on his team. Should he lessen the efficiency of the offense, thereby lessening the Lakers' chances of winning, in order to be "unselfish."

Nash isn't a better player or teammate. His _game_ is to pass the ball and shoot when he's not drawing defenders. He's also in the perfect system, with the perfect teammates, to exploit his skills. He's a perfect point guard for that system, but there are many other systems where Kobe is the significantly more valuable player.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

andalusian said:


> I think she was going for "he does not make his teammates better" - which seems to be supported by empirical evidence.


Only by cherry-picked evidence. If you throw out the players who have done better with Kobe and focus on the players who did worse, of course you're going to have the evidence you seek. That's hardly a sound empirical conclusion, though.

In the past, I've shown that the same can be done for Nash...especially on Dallas, there were various players who had better seasons without Nash.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> Only by cherry-picked evidence. If you throw out the players who have done better with Kobe and focus on the players who did worse, of course you're going to have the evidence you seek. That's hardly a sound empirical conclusion, though.
> 
> In the past, I've shown that the same can be done for Nash...especially on Dallas, there were various players who had better seasons without Nash.


The evidence collected was from the teammates in his recent years where he was the undisputed team leader. I would like to see the list of players that were better with Kobe but worse without him - and I do not expect to see players that were there when Shaq was on the team - because Shaq proved he makes people around him better in 3 different teams and he was the dominant player on the Lakers championship teams.

Odom, Butler, Radmanovitch and even Brown had better years away from Kobe. Turiaf, Walton, Farmar and Bynum played their entire career with him - so we can not really tell. 

I am really interested to see these players that Kobe made better - because I can not think of any (maybe I am overlooking something obvious, but I just can not think of any).


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> Only by cherry-picked evidence. If you throw out the players who have done better with Kobe and focus on the players who did worse, of course you're going to have the evidence you seek. That's hardly a sound empirical conclusion, though.
> 
> In the past, I've shown that the same can be done for Nash...especially on Dallas, there were various players who had better seasons without Nash.


So who are these players that improved playing with Kobe? They are tough to find since he plays with a bunch of draftees now, but are there any?

It's clear that Kobe is trying to get his teammates more involved this season, and was in the second half of last season, for the first time in his career. He makes a big show of talking to his teammates so all the fans can see his leadership, but presumably it isn't all for show and he actually is leading. It's his credit that he is trying to do that now, and his discredit that he waited so long to start. Yeah he won championships before, but I think that's more because of his overwhelming talent, combined with Shaq's overwhelming talent, being on a roster full of great role players rather than due to Kobe being such a great teammate.

Shaq is (or at least was) the kind of player who seems to make others better just by being on the court. Nash, Tim Duncan and others do this as well. Kobe succeeds mostly by being the most talented player in the NBA. It's no coincidence that other players gush about playing with those other guys and you rarely hear anyone saying how much they like to or want to play with Kobe. Maybe KG will say that soon, but he's desperate.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

dudleysghost said:


> So who are these players that improved playing with Kobe? They are tough to find since he plays with a bunch of draftees now, but are there any?


Smush Parker and Chris Mihm are two examples. Devean George dropped off this last season, after leaving Kobe's Lakers.

Kwame Brown statistically hasn't improved (or fallen) but observationally, he's been a bit more highly-regarded in LA than in Washington, from what I've gathered from articles.



> Shaq is (or at least was) the kind of player who seems to make others better just by being on the court. Nash, Tim Duncan and others do this as well. Kobe succeeds mostly by being the most talented player in the NBA.


IMO, the ability of a player to "make his teammates better" stems from two things: their ability to draw the defense and their passing ability. In these, big men and point guards have clear advantages. Premier big men tend to operate near the hoop, so when they draw the defense, it leaves a lot of the court open. Plus, due to being near the hoop, they are more urgent to double-team than a perimeter player. Point guards have an advantage due to their innate court vision and passing skills; as a class, they're the best at it. A premier point guard will be able to set up a teammate with a pass better than a premier player at any other position (generally).

So, I think it's unfair to compare Kobe to big men and point guards in that respect. What non-big men and non-point guards are significantly better at creating for their teammates? The only player I'd say is slightly better is McGrady, because he's developed his passing skills to a remarkable extent. Outside of McGrady, I think Bryant is the non-point guard perimeter player who makes his teammates the best. Which is based on his brilliant scoring ability, which draws double-teams or even entirely collapses defenses when he attacks the hoop, and his strong passing skills.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

andalusian said:


> Odom, Butler, Radmanovitch and even Brown had better years away from Kobe. Turiaf, Walton, Farmar and Bynum played their entire career with him - so we can not really tell.


Brown has basically been the same, statistically. He's been slightly higher regarded, though, as a Laker than as a Wizard.

As I noted in my last post, Smush Parker and Chris Mihm improved as Lakers. Devean George fell off after leaving the Kobe-led Lakers.

I didn't check every player's history, but those were quick examples I could find.

As for Odom, there are two things: by PER, he really hasn't gotten worse. Now, just as I said Brown has been better regarded as a Laker, I agree that Odom has been lesser regarded as a Laker. However, that seems more to do with Odom basically being a poor fit with Kobe due to duplication of role. Both Odom and Kobe are players who need the ball in their hands to initiate the offense. Both create mismatches and then use their passing skills to set up teammates. But there's only one ball and Kobe's clearly the better of the two. If Kobe is the one given that role, Odom is unable to play his game...this isn't Kobe's fault, it's just a bad match. Similarly, if you put Nash and Kidd in the same backcourt, one or both would be sub-optimally used due to duplication of skills and roles. It wouldn't be a black mark against either player, just a bad job of team construction.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

BuckW4GM said:


> if only you were god. why do some people think they know so much more than they do?
> 
> it astound me reading through this thread. i can honestly say i hate kobe and the lakers as much as any blazer fans, but some of the posts here are ridiculous. i'm a blazers fan. only team i love and only team i'll ever love. any player that is willing to wear a blazers uni and go out there and *help the team win* will have my support. kobe can do that almost as well as any player in the nba. i'll take that.


I would like to give you congrats on be 1 of 2 Blazer fans on here that has a brain. I too have been laughing about these all heart no brain comments. I respect you for hating the Lakers, its a compliment.Somebody asked me before why I care if you guys want Kobe. From the side of the Lakers, not yours, it would be a trade Laker fans would want if they had to...but none of that is gonna happen.

Oh and the idiot with 10 better players than Kobe...you cant be serious. You just said it yourself when you said Nash passes to Amare for the last shot. Nash has to pass it, Kobe can do whatever he feels like at that particular moment (including pass, Ive seen it). Yao Ming?!? The guy cant even get into shape. Dirk?!? wow a 7 footer who can shoot a twenty footer, wow! Oh and he has no post game to speak of? amazing! Lebron, could be as good as Kobe but cant take over a game as often as Kobe. He also needs to improve his J and his FT. Shaq(today, not 5 years ago Shaq)?!? The Heat played way better with Alonzo in game during the Playoffs their champ run (look it up). Tim Duncan, this is your most reasonable pick but still not true. If you put in Kobe on that team instead of Manu and got a C/PF of comparable ability of Manu just in big man terms they would have 6 rings in a row. Duncan is great, but he also happens to have an amazing cast of players that make him be able to move around in the post and not get double, triple or quadruple( yes quadruple) which happens to Kobe almost every time he has the ball....Im tired of explaining your stupidity....All your other picks are ridiculous too.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> Smush Parker and Chris Mihm are two examples. Devean George dropped off this last season, after leaving Kobe's Lakers.


George was wounded last year. It is not really relevant.

Parker played only one year as a rookie, had only 11 games with no minutes on a good Detroit team and was basically out of the league before going back to the NBA. In his Rookie year Parker had slightly better production per minute than he had 5 years later with a lot more experience along side Kobe. He was actually more productive per minute in PHX, but he only played 5 games there before they got rid of him.

Mihm's performance per minute with Kobe is virtually the same as he had elsewhere (in his best year as a Laker he shot 0.2 more PPG than his best year in Clevland 3 years earlier)

The evidence is still that he does not make his teammates better.



Minstrel said:


> IMO, the ability of a player to "make his teammates better" stems from two things: their ability to draw the defense and their passing ability. In these, big men and point guards have clear advantages. Premier big men tend to operate near the hoop, so when they draw the defense, it leaves a lot of the court open. Plus, due to being near the hoop, they are more urgent to double-team than a perimeter player. Point guards have an advantage due to their innate court vision and passing skills; as a class, they're the best at it. A premier point guard will be able to set up a teammate with a pass better than a premier player at any other position (generally).
> 
> So, I think it's unfair to compare Kobe to big men and point guards in that respect. What non-big men and non-point guards are significantly better at creating for their teammates? The only player I'd say is slightly better is McGrady, because he's developed his passing skills to a remarkable extent. Outside of McGrady, I think Bryant is the non-point guard perimeter player who makes his teammates the best. Which is based on his brilliant scoring ability, which draws double-teams or even entirely collapses defenses when he attacks the hoop, and his strong passing skills.


I think your assessment of big men vs wing men is right on the money, but McGrady is better at making his teammates better, I would argue that Roy is also (too soon to really make it a definite), So is Wade, MJ was better at it. Was Larry Bird a big man or a wing? He made everyone around him better. Can you believe how far LeBron has taken his teammates? Would anyone talk about Gibson if he was not playing next to LeBron?

The fact of the matter is that in the triangle Kobe has the ball in his hands as much as your average PG - so taking them out of the equation is not really fair. Pippen had the ball a lot in his hands in the same system and he made his teammates better.

Kobe is a great singular talent, maybe the best in the league - but I would argue that there really is no evidence that he makes his teammates better, at best they perform the same next to him.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

andalusian said:


> George was wounded last year. It is not really relevant.
> 
> Parker played only one year as a rookie, had only 11 games with no minutes on a good Detroit team and was basically out of the league before going back to the NBA. In his Rookie year Parker had slightly better production per minute than he had 5 years later with a lot more experience along side Kobe. He was actually more productive per minute in PHX, but he only played 5 games there before they got rid of him.
> 
> Mihm's performance per minute with Kobe is virtually the same as he had elsewhere (in his best year as a Laker he shot 0.2 more PPG than his best year in Clevland 3 years earlier)


There's a reason Parker did not play much before--he was seen as not NBA quality. On the Lakers, he has not been an average NBA starter, but he has definitely been good enough to play in the NBA.

Even then, he's played exactly 82 games prior to joining the Lakers. In those 82 games (1 full season combined), he put up a 10 PER. In the two combined season for LA (82 games each), he's put up a 12.5 PER.

Mihm _did_ have his best season elsewhere, but his overall PER for LA is higher than his overall PER outside of LA.



> The evidence is still that he does not make his teammates better.


Honestly, I would say that, like most players, there's really not a huge positive or negative effect. The players "who did worse" with him are only slightly down (assuming we're not talking about guys who are injured or declined due to age). The players "who did better" are slightly up.

In the past, I've looked at other players, like Nash and McGrady, and found the same. You can create a pile of players who did better and worse with them.



> I think your assessment of big men vs wing men is right on the money, but McGrady is better at making his teammates better, I would argue that Roy is also (too soon to really make it a definite), So is Wade, MJ was better at it. Was Larry Bird a big man or a wing? He made everyone around him better.


I agree on McGrady, but I don't think Wade is appreciably better. I don't feel like looking up more numbers, but anecdotally, Miami had a season of overachieving with him and underachieving. I don't really think either was to do with him. I think Kobe, Wade and Arenas are all very similar in terms of their ability to make teammates better...they all do it by being so dangerous that defenses focus on them, and then they pass it to teammates for better shots that their teammates could have created for themselves.

As for Jordan and Bird, well, now you're talking about some of few greatest players ever. Bird was a freak of nature in terms of passing for his size (as was a guy like Bill Walton, which is why I put "generally" in my comment about premier point guards always being better) and one of the few greatest passers in history. And Jordan is the greatest shooting guard (and, IMO, player) ever. I don't think Kobe being worse at creating for teammates than Bird or Jordan reflects poorly on him.

Pippen and Glide are two guys who I think were similarly talented to Kobe, but with different strengths. I think both were better passers than Kobe, but Kobe trumped both in scoring. But we're still talking upper-tier Hall of Famers, IMO.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> As for Jordan and Bird, well, now you're talking about some of few greatest players ever. Bird was a freak of nature in terms of passing for his size (as was a guy like Bill Walton, which is why I put "generally" in my comment about premier point guards always being better) and one of the few greatest passers in history. And Jordan is the greatest shooting guard (and, IMO, player) ever. I don't think Kobe being worse at creating for teammates than Bird or Jordan reflects poorly on him.
> 
> Pippen and Glide are two guys who I think were similarly talented to Kobe, but with different strengths. I think both were better passers than Kobe, but Kobe trumped both in scoring. But we're still talking upper-tier Hall of Famers, IMO.



The whole reason we are talking about Kobe so much is because he is supposed to be upper-tier hall of fame guy - and some argue that he is the best there ever was.

Kobe is a great player and among the top 5 as an individual in today's game. But, I think he is overrated when you compare him to people like MJ, Bird, Magic - and this is where the debate is. 

Do you think that if we took Kobe out of the great "Shaq in his prime" teams with a good coach and replaced him with T-Mac or Wade or LeBron or even Pippen they would not have got these rings?

Wade already proved he can carry a team with a lesser talent to a ring, Pippen have proven 6 times that he can get a ring playing next to a dominant #1 option. Kobe is a great player, no doubt about it - but I am not ready to buy that he is that much better than T-Mac or anywhere near what MJ was. He was lucky to be in a great situation to elevate his status from really good to all time great.

One of the best players in today's league, no doubt. All time great? I am not convinced.



> Even then, he's played exactly 82 games prior to joining the Lakers. In those 82 games (1 full season combined), he put up a 10 PER. In the two combined season for LA (82 games each), he's put up a 12.5 PER.


And this is not cherry picking? This includes 66 games from his rookie year. Parker's best per game performance year was with PHX - but he only played 5 games there - so at best a much more experienced Parker is as good as he was with much less experience. Given this - I do not see how playing next to Kobe made Parker a better player. It has not.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Smush Parker and Chris Mihm are two examples. Devean George dropped off this last season, after leaving Kobe's Lakers.
> 
> Kwame Brown statistically hasn't improved (or fallen) but observationally, he's been a bit more highly-regarded in LA than in Washington, from what I've gathered from articles.
> 
> ...


Nice post. 

Except, of course, that you obviously forgot about LeBron James. James is clearly the best passer for a 2 or 3 in the game. Ironically enough, he's always being criticized for being too *unlike *Kobe, trying too hard to make his teammates better at the expense of his own game. 

Seems to me that star shooting guards/small forwards are often in a no-win situation for fans. Pass a lot? You're passive. Pass very little? You're selfish.


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## Spud147 (Jul 15, 2005)

I need a definition of what "making team mates better means", are we talking pure statistics, number of wins as a team, or success in the play offs. You really can't say that Butler, Odom, and Radmanovich are markedly statiscally worse either. Butler shows that he's continued to improve statistically every year he's been in the league... that's what you expect/hope young players will do. You could argue that's just because he's more experienced. Nash and Kidd were also better in their 
5th years than in their rookie years. 

Odom and Rad aren't really significantly worse... Odom has never played with a player as good as Kobe, he had to take more of a lead role on the Clippers, which didn't get him anyway and he had a lot more talent supporting him than Kobe does now. It's like Sheed with Portland, great player but just isn't going to lead his team to a championship but is a fantastic 2nd or 3rd option. Is Sheed better or worse now than when he was in Portland? His statistics are much lower than they were in Portland but he's got a ring as a major part of the Detroit team now. As for Rad, if you consider that he's getting quite a bit less playing time he's really not "worse" than he was before.

Also, I think MVP and best player are two different things. The recent winners (Nash and Dirk) are on teams that are more successful but they are surround by much better team mates. They're going to have and advantage in the MVP race with their winning percentage. Surround Kobe with a team with pieces that fit and perform their roles he'd definitely be in the running. Kobe might not be the nicest guy around, he might be a complete jerk to his team mates but so was MJ. I have no doubt in my mind that Kobe could lead his team to a championship if he had enough from his supporting cast. 

And I have to agree with the guy who brought up Ainge, I felt the exact same way when he was playing for Boston. One of the most annoying players I'd ever watched. When he came to the Blazers and was doing all those irritating things to other teams I got over it real quick. I think if we actually did trade for Kobe (and the chances of that are between zero and nothing) you'd see some Blazers fans leave but once the wins started racking up you'd see the Blazer bandwagon filling up fast. 

Bottom line, the average fan just loves winning... Kobe and our young guys would get you a whole lot of wins.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

andalusian said:


> The whole reason we are talking about Kobe so much is because he is supposed to be upper-tier hall of fame guy - and some argue that he is the best there ever was.
> 
> Kobe is a great player and among the top 5 as an individual in today's game. But, I think he is overrated when you compare him to people like MJ, Bird, Magic - and this is where the debate is.


Now you are just making a straw man argument. I haven't seen me, Minstrel, Ed or any of the other rational Blazer fans on this site who acknowledge Kobe's greatness argue that he's in the realm of MJ, Bird or Magic. 

You can be the best shooting guard in the NBA and extremely desirable to trade for and still not be in that category. Clyde Drexler was at one point the best SG around, and yet nobody talks about him in the MJ/Bird/Magic category.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

I really hope Kobe doesn't get traded.

It's just going to be so much fun in a few years watching the Blazers keep him from getting any more rings.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> Smush Parker and Chris Mihm are two examples. Devean George dropped off this last season, after leaving Kobe's Lakers.
> 
> Kwame Brown statistically hasn't improved (or fallen) but observationally, he's been a bit more highly-regarded in LA than in Washington, from what I've gathered from articles.


The fact that those are the best examples is pretty good evidence of what I'm talking about. Mihm's per minute numbers are basically the same in LA. His numbers went up because he got more minutes. George's numbers are nearly identical across the board this season and last. Not much there.

Kwame's scoring and rebs have actually gone down in LA. His FG% has gone up a ton, and that is signficant, but he was a raw 22-year old when he joined the Lakers. One would expect a 22-year old to improve over time, so I think the relative little development he's shown is pretty weak testimony for Kobe's ability to make teammates better.

Smush Parker was a guy on the margins of the NBA who got the chance to play significant minutes because LA had nobody better. Now they are saying straight out they don't even want to keep him, even without a viable replacement in place. I guess that's improvement, but if that's the best example, I think the preponderance of evidence is against Kobe. Even by random chance we'd expect some players to play better after changing teams, but with Kobe nobody seems to do that, and some do the opposite.



Minstrel said:


> IMO, the ability of a player to "make his teammates better" stems from two things: their ability to draw the defense and their passing ability. In these, big men and point guards have clear advantages. Premier big men tend to operate near the hoop, so when they draw the defense, it leaves a lot of the court open. Plus, due to being near the hoop, they are more urgent to double-team than a perimeter player. Point guards have an advantage due to their innate court vision and passing skills; as a class, they're the best at it. A premier point guard will be able to set up a teammate with a pass better than a premier player at any other position (generally).
> 
> So, I think it's unfair to compare Kobe to big men and point guards in that respect. What non-big men and non-point guards are significantly better at creating for their teammates? The only player I'd say is slightly better is McGrady, because he's developed his passing skills to a remarkable extent. Outside of McGrady, I think Bryant is the non-point guard perimeter player who makes his teammates the best. Which is based on his brilliant scoring ability, which draws double-teams or even entirely collapses defenses when he attacks the hoop, and his strong passing skills.


Drawing defenses and passing ability are not the only things that make teammates better. Do you think Nash somehow gets court vision because he plays the PG spot? No. He could run the show from the SG spot, like Kobe does, and get the same results. He does more than draw defenses and make nice passes, he knows how to keep his teammates involved. That's being a leader, and is not the same as racking up assist numbers. Any guard can dominate the ball all game and get a lot of assists, but it isn't a proxy score for making teammates better. Not even close.

Guys who create opportunities specifically for their teammates make them better. Guys who lead, telling everyone what they need to be doing and knowing how and when to berate or encourage make their teammates better. If a guy has the ball all the time and only creates opportunities for himself, he may fall into a bunch of assists but the rest of the team still feels like it isn't involved. If you ever play pickup basketball at the local gym, you are bound to run into guys like this. It usually sucks playing with them, even if they are good enough to carry the team to some wins. OTOH, guys who are really good themselves but still look for you when you cut or pop open are the best guys to play with, and they come at all positions. Players make their teammates better by both enabling and inspiring them to play better.

I don't know if there is great statistical evidence, besides the lack of players who seem to thrive with Kobe (Luke Walton is the best example I can think of for that). The best evidence I can see though is the testimony of other players, or rather the lack of it pertaining to the joy of playing with Kobe. Like I said, players gush over the joys of playing with Shaq or Nash. I don't know why you think Nash gets some kind of bonus just because he is a PG, because Kobe runs the offense in LA. Brandon Roy is a similar point-shooting guard, and we've heard all kinds of players testify to their enjoyment of playing with him. I bet if you go through the local press throughout the league, for most star players at each position you will hear at least some similar praises.

For Kobe though, it doesn't seem like we hear any of that. Doesn't that seem significant? I know we aren't as close to Kobe as we are to Roy, but Kobe has a national profile so we do hear a lot about him. If there are players out there saying what a great teammate (as opposed to just a great player) Kobe is that I'm not aware of, then correct me cause I'm wrong, but from what I've seen it looks like just the opposite. The silent lack of testimony on this is deafening. Actually, didn't Phil Jackson write a book with chapters about how selfish Kobe is?

That's not to say I don't think Kobe can help teams win. He literally is the most talented player in the league, and that alone helps teams win. He does draw defensive attention and he is a dominant scorer and a good defender when he tries. I think our team would be significantly better if we traded Randolph and Roy for Kobe straight across, so I'm not trying to be a hater that says Kobe doesn't win.

All I'm saying is that his reputation for selfishness seems pretty deserved, and he sort of limits his own usefulness a bit because he can't seem to see the court or the world without himself in the center of it. Kobe is the most talented, but if people want to argue that there are other more valuable players who are better because they make teammates better, I think they have a good case.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

mook said:


> Now you are just making a straw man argument. I haven't seen me, Minstrel, Ed or any of the other rational Blazer fans on this site who acknowledge Kobe's greatness argue that he's in the realm of MJ, Bird or Magic.
> 
> You can be the best shooting guard in the NBA and extremely desirable to trade for and still not be in that category. Clyde Drexler was at one point the best SG around, and yet nobody talks about him in the MJ/Bird/Magic category.


There was a ESPN 2 article a little while ago where there was an argument that Kobe is better than MJ.

The reason we talk so much about Kobe but there was no such argument when AI wanted a trade - is because he is annoited one of the greatest ever.

I do not argue that Kobe is not a great basketball player, I agree 100% - but I disagree that he is as good as some make him to be and disagree with the idea that there was cherry picking. The evidence is clearly that he is at best not going to make you worse as a teammate.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

andalusian said:


> The whole reason we are talking about Kobe so much is because he is supposed to be upper-tier hall of fame guy - and some argue that he is the best there ever was.


"Best there ever was" is hyperbole tossed around by Kobe fans who aren't going for objective analysis. Reasonable analysis does place him as an upper tier Hall of Famer. I think he's a top-25 ever guy. I place him in same class as Pippen, Drexler and Havlicek.

I'm not arguing that Kobe belong with Jordan, Bird and Magic. I think that's crazy. I was arguing the idea that Kobe is "better" while Nash is "more valuable" because Kobe doesn't make his teammates better. I think Bryant's main talent is scoring, but he's great because he can also rebound and pass very well for his position, which makes him a benefit to teammates on top of being a dominant scorer. 



> Kobe is a great player, no doubt about it - but I am not ready to buy that he is that much better than T-Mac or anywhere near what MJ was.


Well, until his back injuries began to really slow him, in 2005-06, I think McGrady and Kobe were virtually identical talents and both all-time great players, but neither one in Jordan's class. Now, McGrady's scoring efficiency has dropped (though his play-making has improved), while Kobe has recorded a couple of big-time seasons.



> And this is not cherry picking? This includes 66 games from his rookie year.


This is the very definition of NOT cherry-picking. If I were to cherry-pick, I'd have left those 66 games _out_ because they were easily the best non-LA performance he has. I included _all_ the data. All of his non-LA performance adds up to 82 games...which, being equivalent to one full season, I feel is a decent sample size.



> Parker's best per game performance year was with PHX - but he only played 5 games there - so at best a much more experienced Parker is as good as he was with much less experience. Given this - I do not see how playing next to Kobe made Parker a better player. It has not.


As I said, by PER, which factors in his scoring, rebounding, passing and steals/blocks, Parker has been a little bit better than before he was a Laker. Add in that he wasn't even _seen_ as a NBA-caliber talent before joining LA, and I think these last two seasons have definitely been Parker's best as a pro.

Try this: If Parker had done the same with Nash, what would the story be? Probably that Nash turned an NBA wash-out into a legitimate NBA player. A lot of perception is basically writing the story based on what one already believes.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> "Best there ever was" is hyperbole tossed around by Kobe fans who aren't going for objective analysis. Reasonable analysis does place him as an upper tier Hall of Famer. I think he's a top-25 ever guy. I place him in same class as Pippen, Drexler and Havlicek.
> 
> I'm not arguing that Kobe belong with Jordan, Bird and Magic. I think that's crazy. I was arguing the idea that Kobe is "better" while Nash is "more valuable" because Kobe doesn't make his teammates better. I think Bryant's main talent is scoring, but he's great because he can also rebound and pass very well for his position, which makes him a benefit to teammates on top of being a dominant scorer.


I think we are basically in agreement about Kobe. Great player, not an all-time great and the rest is just variation on specific items of his ability.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

dudleysghost said:


> The fact that those are the best examples is pretty good evidence of what I'm talking about. Mihm's per minute numbers are basically the same in LA. His numbers went up because he got more minutes. George's numbers are nearly identical across the board this season and last. Not much there.


I'm using PER, which is minutes-adjusted. Same thing goes for Smush.



> Kwame's scoring and rebs have actually gone down in LA. His FG% has gone up a ton, and that is signficant, but he was a raw 22-year old when he joined the Lakers. One would expect a 22-year old to improve over time, so I think the relative little development he's shown is pretty weak testimony for Kobe's ability to make teammates better.


Brown has neither improved nor dropped off by PER. One would expect a 22-year old to improve, except that Brown was a bust. A bust of a prospect is not subject to the same development curve as an athlete who has panned out. I don't think Brown is major evidence FOR Kobe, but his playing slightly better according to observers is minor evidence, IMO.



> Drawing defenses and passing ability are not the only things that make teammates better. Do you think Nash somehow gets court vision because he plays the PG spot? No.


I don't see what this has to do with what I said. I didn't say that playing point guard _creates_ court vision and passing ability. I said point guards, as a class, have the best court vision and passing ability...the reason being, the players who are the best at those things are (generally) put at that position. They're a picked population.

Kobe was not put at point guard because his greatest strength is not passing ability (though Phil Jackson has said that Kobe has often run the point for LA quite well). Therefore, it's not reasonable to compare a shooting guard to a point guard in terms of making teammates better. Making teammates better, via play-making, is a point guard's _job_. Scoring the ball is a shooting guard's job. Nash is better at his job, Kobe is better at his.

But _for a shooting guard_, Kobe Bryant is one of the best at creating for others and therefore making them better. In fact, I'd say that he's one of the best ever at his position at doing so, behind Jordan and Drexler (and West, if you count him as a shooting guard).



> Guys who create opportunities specifically for their teammates make them better.


This has been my entire argument--that "making teammates better" is about creating plays for teammates. I believe Kobe does this as well as any non-point guard perimeter player except for McGrady and LeBron James (thanks, Wanker!). I've watched plenty of Bryant and seen him spend lots of possessions setting up teammates.



> Guys who lead, telling everyone what they need to be doing and knowing how and when to berate or encourage make their teammates better.


This is possibly true, but unquantifiable and, IMO, way beyond fans to reasonably judge. We don't see how they are in practice or the locker room, nor do we know their teammates well enough to know if the player praises or berates them at the "right times."


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

andalusian said:


> I think we are basically in agreement about Kobe. Great player, not an all-time great and the rest is just variation on specific items of his ability.


We aren't completely in agreement. I think Kobe is an all-time great player. Top 25 ever is pretty all-time great. I just don't think he's top-10 all-time like Jordan, Magic or Bird.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

mook said:


> Except, of course, that you obviously forgot about LeBron James.


Complete brain freeze.



> Seems to me that star shooting guards/small forwards are often in a no-win situation for fans. Pass a lot? You're passive. Pass very little? You're selfish.


I've noted the same thing, with Kobe and McGrady. However much they pass, they're doing something wrong.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

Ok Minstrel, if the lack of guys who have improved playing with Kobe and the lack of guys who are willing to say he is a great teammate doesn't convince you, and Phil Jackson writing a book about it doesn't either, then I don't think anything could. Kobe must be a great guy to play with but for some unknown reason no players are willing to say so...


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

dudleysghost said:


> Ok Minstrel, if the lack of guys who have improved playing with Kobe


In terms of percentages (raw numbers are silly since Kobe has played with a lot of guys who haven't played for another team), I don't think Kobe is very different from most top players in terms of how many have improved and how many have dropped off.



> and the lack of guys who are willing to say he is a great teammate doesn't convince you, then I don't think anything could. Kobe must be a great guy to play with but for some unknown reason no players are willing to say so...


I'm not arguing that the perception doesn't exist. I'm saying the perception is wrong. And I've really seen nothing to support that perception.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> We aren't completely in agreement. I think Kobe is an all-time great player. Top 25 ever is pretty all-time great. I just don't think he's top-10 all-time like Jordan, Magic or Bird.


I should be clear, I agree 100% with that. He is a great player. Drexler and Pippen and Kobe are in the same class as far as I am concerned. MJ, Bird, Russel and Magic are higher.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

andalusian said:


> I should be clear, I agree 100% with that. He is a great player. Drexler and Pippen and Kobe are in the same class as far as I am concerned. MJ, Bird, Russel and Magic are higher.


Ah yes...that's exactly what I think too.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> In terms of percentages (raw numbers are silly since Kobe has played with a lot of guys who haven't played for another team), I don't think Kobe is very different from most top players in terms of how many have improved and how many have dropped off.


Yes, that seems to be your choice to see it that way.



Minstrel said:


> I'm not arguing that the perception doesn't exist. I'm saying the perception is wrong. And I've really seen nothing to support that perception.


I never said anything about the perception, at least not of fans and media commentators. Straw man on your part for suggesting it.

I'm talking about an argument from authority using the players themselves. Other stars' teammates give us reams of testimony as to how their particular star makes players around them better, which is exactly what we are talking about. I can't prove there is a preponderance, but certainly you can recall reading about how players say they love playing with Brandon Roy, or LeBron, or Shaq, or Duncan, or Kidd and Nash (yes, that is every position). Can you say the same about Kobe? I don't think so. That's not about perception, it's about what teammates, the absolute authority on the question at hand, are willing or not willing to say about the star on their team. Then there is the book PJ wrote.

Do Kobe's coach and other players not have enough credibility on the matter for you to take their testimony, or lack thereof, as credible?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

dudleysghost said:


> I never said anything about the perception, at least not of fans and media commentators. Straw man on your part for suggesting it.


Not a strawman at all. The perception, that you share, includes that players see Kobe as a bad teammate. I really haven't seen anyone say so and, "Players don't clamor to play next to him" is something that could be said about anyone. I've never seen players "clamor" to play next to Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Paul Pierce or anyone else.

Also, teammates clearly aren't close to Kobe due to his aloofness and his keeping to himself outside of games and practice. So, I wouldn't expect an outpouring of love for him in print. But that doesn't mean he's not a good teammate on the floor.

As for Phil Jackson, he's made so many contradictoruy statements about Kobe, I don't know what to believe. He's said that Kobe isn't a selfish player and a very good teammate and then he's also said that Kobe was the reason for the break-up of the Lakers (something Shaq just recently said wasn't the case). His book was very harsh about Kobe..and then he came back to coach a team led by Kobe. I'm sure Jackson _is_ an authority, but what he really believes is quite up to question.

If we're talking about believed-in preponderance that we can't prove, here's mine: I think virtually any player would be very pleased to have Kobe join their team, unless he was basically replacing them in the lineup, and would expect to get better shots because of Kobe.


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

Im just glad I read this whole thread. The first several pages were hillarious and infuriating. Good to see some Blazer fans grounding this debate. I can understand you guys not wanting to trade LMA, Oden or Roy, but to refuse any trade bringing Kobe to Portland is just flat out unreasonable.


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