# McGrady to NYK Trade Proposal...



## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

*McGrady a Knick?*

Why are the Knicks even being rumored to be doing dumb things? I thought they were past this.
*
YahooSports*



> The Houston Rockets are in the discussion stages of a complicated, three-team trade that would send Tracy McGrady(notes) to the New York Knicks, sources told Yahoo! Sports.


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## Punk (Feb 4, 2010)

*Re: McGrady a Knick?*



TM said:


> Why are the Knicks even being rumored to be doing dumb things? I thought they were past this.
> *
> YahooSports*


I know everyone looks to hate the Knicks but how is it dumb? Your getting a superstar. Injures or not, T-Mac being on their roster adds more interest to free agents Lebron or not. 

Samething goes for if they had signed Iverson. 

The reason why they did not sign Iverson is they wanted to give their young talent a chance, which is not working right now. So making a trade by getting a leader who knows how to win is what they are doing.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

*Re: McGrady a Knick?*

How good is he going to be this year? Has he even played 10 games?

I had forgotten that his contract is up at the end of the season. As far as him helping draw interest for free agent - You'd have to be a fool as a superstar to want to play with this guy. Who knows though - maybe they can resign him for peanuts. I doubt it though.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

*Re: McGrady a Knick?*

Knicks still have guys like Jared Jefferies that they can get rid of. Maybe the trade will involve him.

At this point I would say that the only players that the Knicks should keep going into next season are Chandler and Gallo along with the bench guys like Hill and Douglas. After watching Lee more closely he is more of a stat padder than a star and it would be unwise if Knicks end up paying him allstar money.


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## Punk (Feb 4, 2010)

*Re: McGrady a Knick?*



TM said:


> How good is he going to be this year? Has he even played 10 games?
> 
> I had forgotten that his contract is up at the end of the season. As far as him helping draw interest for free agent - You'd have to be a fool as a superstar to want to play with this guy. Who knows though - maybe they can resign him for peanuts. I doubt it though.


They aren't going to resign him yet, obviously. But the problem is, he could help Houston but they do not want him. 

The biggest issue is he does not get along with Yao anymore, which is something nobody talks about in the news. So, his legs are fine right now. He just is not wanted there anymore.

The Knicks can use him to attract free agents and get some wins with a leader, something the Knicks do not have.

If some free agents look at the Knicks roster and are interested in joining, adding T-Mac would only add to their interests.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: McGrady a Knick?*



TM said:


> Why are the Knicks even being rumored to be doing dumb things? I thought they were past this.
> *
> YahooSports*


Dumb things? They'd essentially be getting a player that is still in his prime and one of the league's best players of the decade....for Al Harrington and likely Jared Jefferies. This obviously is no steal when you consider McGrady's poor health and potential to never be the same but what do we have to lose; this team is not going to make the playoffs as currently constructed.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

I guess everyone has heard the rumors. I got an interesting idea that would involve 4 teams (including the Knicks) that would inevitably bring McGrady to New York.

*Knicks Trade:*
Al Harrington...F, Jared Jefferies...F/C, Cuttino Mobley...SG, Nate Robinson...PG, $3 million cash, 2010 2nd round pick

*Knicks Recieve:*
Tracy McGrady...G/F, Glen Davis...F/C, Eddie House...G, Brian Scalabrine...F

*Wizards Trade:*
Caron Butler...SF, Brendan Haywood...C, DeShawn Stevenson...G/F

*Wizards Recieve:*
Al Harrington...F, Jared Jefferies...F/C, HOU's protected 2010 first round pick, NYK 2010 second round pick, $3 million cash

*Rockets Trade:*
Tracy McGrady...G/F, protected 2010 first round pick

*Rockets Receive:*
Cuttino Mobley...SG, Caron Butler...SF, Brendan Haywood...C

*Boston Trades:*
Glen Davis...PF, Eddie House...G, Brian Scalabrine...F

*Boston Receives:*
Nate Robinson...G, Deshawn Stevenson...G/F

...This trade works under the CBA and more importantly appeases all teams involved. The Knicks need to take a gamble at this point in order to make it into the playoffs, which is exactly what McGrady is. Additionally, they free themselves of Jared Jefferies' contract in the process and thus create $6 million additional cap space this upcoming offseason.

The Wizards free themselves of they're contractual obligations to Caron Butler and replace him with a comparable player in Al Harrington, in addition to a solid backup in Jared Jefferies. They also recieve draft picks and cash as key assets in any rebuilding program.

The Rockets acquire two capable players (Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood) to help shore up their team without sacrificing key personnel or assets. Whats to lose in this situation?

The Celtics add additional bench scoring in Nate Robinson; a player the have had they're eyes on for quite some time. They lose some front-court depth but with Tony Battie on the verge of hitting free agent wires, won't lack depth for long.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

This might sound funny, but as a Celtics fan I don't want to give up Eddie House. He's come through in enough big games and fourth quarters that I trust him in the rotation too much to use him as an expiring. Sub in J.R. Giddens and Shelden Williams(works financially), with a promise to buy out Williams' deal so that we can have him as an emergency big for the playoffs, and I like it much, much more.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

The Wizards aren't going to do that. You don't give up Haywood and Butler and get back Harrington and Jeffries. Noone wants Jeffries contract, if they wanted it they would've signed him to it. And those picks aren't going go turn into anything. With these trade scenarios people tend to shortchange teams to fit everything in...but no, from DC I'm telling you that's a no go.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

A follow-up trade the Knicks could make after all of this is with the Bobcats for DJ Augustin. After hearing about the rumors of a Glen Davis-DJ Augustin deal, I figured it would be a savvy move to pursue DJ Augustin using those same assets the Celtics have. A deal essentially for Davis using Robinson as a pawn, satisifies the need for the Celtics to have scoring punch/PG play while putting is in a position to nab a PG better suited for our offense. If that trade went down as I planned then we could feasibly bring back DJ Augustin, Acie Law and Stephen Graham for Toney Douglas, Glen Davis and Eddie House.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Bogg said:


> This might sound funny, but as a Celtics fan I don't want to give up Eddie House. He's come through in enough big games and fourth quarters that I trust him in the rotation too much to use him as an expiring. Sub in J.R. Giddens and Shelden Williams(works financially), with a promise to buy out Williams' deal so that we can have him as an emergency big for the playoffs, and I like it much, much more.


I wouldn't let Eddie House be a dealbreaker. You'd have yourself a deal.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Dre™ said:


> The Wizards aren't going to do that. You don't give up Haywood and Butler and get back Harrington and Jeffries. Noone wants Jeffries contract, if they wanted it they would've signed him to it. And those picks aren't going go turn into anything. With these trade scenarios people tend to shortchange teams to fit everything in...but no, from DC I'm telling you that's a no go.


Yeah no one would want to take Jefferies contract. Just like no one would take Jamal Crawford's contract. Just like no one would take Zach Randolph's contract. Just like how no one would touch a number of contracts belonging to former Knicks who inevitabily were traded. I would think after being bombarded with evidence to the contrary of ridiculous statements like this one, people would get the bigger picture that any deal comes down to asking price. Considering that Jefferies contract has just one year on it, he certainly could be moved but whether he can be moved for an expiring contract remains to be seen. Last year, the Knicks had a deal on the table for Kenny Thomas involving both Nate Robinson and Jefferies that they later turned down. This would suggest to me that he certainly could be if involved in the right deal. Considering the Wizards financial situation pre-trade to post-trade, acquiring Jefferies without a doubt benefits them, so why wouldn't they make the deal? Teams have traded for players they have dealt or let walk via free agency before.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford are exponentially more valuable than Jared ****in Jeffries.


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## Punk (Feb 4, 2010)

Why the hell are people talking crap about Jeffries? The man is a defensive player. Why wouldn't you want him?

I swear, It's not one day I read comments on Yahoo sports that has anything positive to say on him.


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## Punk (Feb 4, 2010)

*Re: McGrady a Knick?*



> Knicks' president Donnie Walsh has gone to watch Tracy McGrady workout, and might go see him again before the February 18 trade deadline.
> 
> The Knicks are reportedly involved in discussions with the Rockets and Wizards about a three-way deal that would bring McGrady to New York.
> 
> http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap/#


It looks serious.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I wouldn't want him because he's a fairly overrated defender who's making 6 million this year and next. I'd rather not trade Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood for him and Al Harrington :laugh:


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## Punk (Feb 4, 2010)

So...leading the lead in charges drawn, be able to guard all 5 positions is overrated?


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Punk said:


> So...leading the lead in charges drawn, be able to guard all 5 positions is overrated?


Jeffries is a useful defender, but he's overpaid and an offensive liability. Honestly, with it becoming clear that nobody's going to give up expirings for Jeffries or Curry, the Knicks should just try to turn them into useful players with (bad)contracts that don't make sense for their particular teams. Just as an example off the top of my head: 

Golden State desperately needs to blow up their team and start over. Trading Jeffries and Curry's expirings this summer with Jordan Hill(or even Toney Douglas) for Maggette and Biedrins doesn't affect New York's cap space and gives them two useful players to help draw to veteran free agents. Golden State gets expiring contracts and a prospect to start their rebuilding, putting them in position to build around Ellis, Curry, Anthony Randolph, Jordan Hill, top ten picks the next two years, and a whole bunch of cap space in the summer 2011.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

it would be a great deal for the rockets, but the wizards would hang up the phone immediately.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Dre™ said:


> I wouldn't want him because he's a fairly overrated defender who's making 6 million this year and next. I'd rather not trade Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood for him and Al Harrington :laugh:


Overrated in what sense? Have you seen what this guy has managed to do to certain players with his defense? He had Chris Paul having a fit when they last played us. And if your spouting around the overrated tag, how could you not lump Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood into the category? It is very evident that Brendan Haywood is playing well mostly because its a contract year; he's essentially Erick Dampier 2.0. As for Butler, he has never been better than the 3rd best player on his team and despite his individual talent never has seemed to be on top tier teams in the league. Makes you wonder just how valuable those numbers of his are. This isn't to say Butler could not help a team but I certainly believe it takes a lot more than meets the eye in order to make what he does on an individual basis useful for the entire team. I think thats why teams are very reluctant to commit anything more than expiring contracts to either player and particularly why a guy like Al Harrington who provides similar basketball effectiveness AND an expiring contract is more valuable than you assume. The Wizards are rebuilding and therefore need financial flexibility to rebuild.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

caron butler only has one more year on his contract. there's no reason to just dump him. and al harrington doesn't provide similar basketball effectiveness. there's just no chance this happens. i could see a scenario in which the wizards would be willing to trade caron for harrington straight up(and with stevenson or other non expiring salary leaving the wizards as well), but they wouldn't take on jeffries in the process. 

it just doesn't make sense to dump caron for salary reasons but pick up jeffries in the deal.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Bogg said:


> Jeffries is a useful defender, but he's overpaid and an offensive liability. Honestly, with it becoming clear that nobody's going to give up expirings for Jeffries or Curry, the Knicks should just try to turn them into useful players with (bad)contracts that don't make sense for their particular teams. Just as an example off the top of my head:
> 
> Golden State desperately needs to blow up their team and start over. Trading Jeffries and Curry's expirings this summer with Jordan Hill(or even Toney Douglas) for Maggette and Biedrins doesn't affect New York's cap space and gives them two useful players to help draw to veteran free agents. Golden State gets expiring contracts and a prospect to start their rebuilding, putting them in position to build around Ellis, Curry, Anthony Randolph, Jordan Hill, top ten picks the next two years, and a whole bunch of cap space in the summer 2011.


I think bringing in a Corey Maggette negates all the suffering we've endured from this team gutting experience. Simply put, the guy is a me-first BUM. Thats the reason why teams were not willing to entertain the notion of trading for him without serious incentives involved. All we'd be doing with those two is spinning the wheel of mediocrity for half a decade until the experiment fails. I like Biedrins but would prefer a full blown rebuilding plan, involving draft picks this time around, to build our team. I think RealGM had an interesting article concerning a proper blueprint to building a team, which is modeled after what the Thunder did. I think you should check it out.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

TwinkieFoot said:


> I think bringing in a Corey Maggette negates all the suffering we've endured from this team gutting experience. Simply put, the guy is a me-first BUM. Thats the reason why teams were not willing to entertain the notion of trading for him without serious incentives involved. All we'd be doing with those two is spinning the wheel of mediocrity for half a decade until the experiment fails. I like Biedrins but would prefer a full blown rebuilding plan, involving draft picks this time around, to build our team. I think RealGM had an interesting article concerning a proper blueprint to building a team, which is modeled after what the Thunder did. I think you should check it out.


You aren't building around Maggette and Biedrins. You're building around the free agents you bring in this summer(whoever they may be). The idea is that having a low-usage rebounding/defensive center in Biedrins and a scorer in Maggette is more attractive than two dead contracts in Curry and Jeffries. I thought that was evident. The move negates nothing because it doesn't affect the Knicks cap space this summer and upgrades their potential supporting cast.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> caron butler only has one more year on his contract. there's no reason to just dump him. and al harrington doesn't provide similar basketball effectiveness. there's just no chance this happens. i could see a scenario in which the wizards would be willing to trade caron for harrington straight up(and with stevenson or other non expiring salary leaving the wizards as well), but they wouldn't take on jeffries in the process.
> 
> it just doesn't make sense to dump caron for salary reasons but pick up jeffries in the deal.


It does when you consider that Jefferies makes roughly half of what Butler makes ($6 million) which is doubled when you factor in luxury tax (totaling $12 million). Add DeShawn Stevenson to the mix like I did in my deal and they'd save an additional $6 million in luxury tax (totaling $18 million roughly). The Knicks would also send them $3 million in the deal, which in essence saves that team $21 million for just one season. Go factor in the 2nd season when Harrington's deal won't be around are your now approaching $30 million in savings. Is that chump change to you?

P.S., What does Butler do on the floor that is appreciably better than Harrington? They do play different spots but are essentially the same player with different names to me at this point: scorers that have the ability to do most of their damage in the paint but are not necessarily good enough to carry a team offensively or get guys shots.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Bogg said:


> You aren't building around Maggette and Biedrins. You're building around the free agents you bring in this summer(whoever they may be). The idea is that having a low-usage rebounding/defensive center in Biedrins and a scorer in Maggette is more attractive than two dead contracts in Curry and Jeffries. I thought that was evident. The move negates nothing because it doesn't affect the Knicks cap space this summer and upgrades their potential supporting cast.


That much was not made evident because you never actually suggested using our cap space; just the meer fact that it would exist. I honestly do not believe Maggette and Biedrins would change our circumstances much even as role players. Maggette is already 31 years old and isn't exactly going to get better. Biedrins is vastly overpaid and talent may be duplicated in some draft pick we'd recieve, if we sucked bad enough. I know all this is hypothetical but the $18 million those two would command together is too steep a price and IMO is what got us into the financial nightmare we've been in the past few seasons.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

TwinkieFoot said:


> That much was not made evident because you never actually suggested using our cap space; just the meer fact that it would exist.


I thought it went unsaid that New York is going to use their cap space to sign free agents this summer. It's been their plan for two to three years now. It's the whole reason that you want to get rid of Jeffries so badly. Anyways, yes, the Knicks should sign players to improve their roster this summer as opposed to going into next year with a 30 million dollar payroll. 







TwinkieFoot said:


> I honestly do not believe Maggette and Biedrins would change our circumstances much even as role players. Maggette is already 31 years old and isn't exactly going to get better. Biedrins is vastly overpaid and talent may be duplicated in some draft pick we'd recieve, if we sucked bad enough. I know all this is hypothetical but the $18 million those two would command together is too steep a price and IMO is what got us into the financial nightmare we've been in the past few seasons.


That hypothetical rookie isn't taking the court until 2011-2012 at the earliest because the Knicks don't have the rights to their pick this year. Right now the Knicks have almost nothing in the way of a supporting cast to entice a top tier free agent, which begs the question of why an elite player in his prime would want to come to New York and be saddled with the worst team in sports. Maggette and Biedrins(when healthy) are at least legitimate starters to give the hypothetical free agents some confidence the team will be more than them alongside minimum salary players.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

TwinkieFoot said:


> It does when you consider that Jefferies makes roughly half of what Butler makes ($6 million) which is doubled when you factor in luxury tax (totaling $12 million). Add DeShawn Stevenson to the mix like I did in my deal and they'd save an additional $6 million in luxury tax (totaling $18 million roughly). The Knicks would also send them $3 million in the deal, which in essence saves that team $21 million for just one season. Go factor in the 2nd season when Harrington's deal won't be around are your now approaching $30 million in savings. Is that chump change to you?


i'm going to disregard your made up numbers. why exactly are you doubling jeffries salary?



> P.S., What does Butler do on the floor that is appreciably better than Harrington? They do play different spots but are essentially the same player with different names to me at this point: scorers that have the ability to do most of their damage in the paint but are not necessarily good enough to carry a team offensively or get guys shots.


a better question would be what doesn't butler do better than harrington? butler is literally better at everything. i guess when playing for the knicks it can be argued that harrington is butler's equal as a scorer but that's it.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

TwinkieFoot said:


> Overrated in what sense? Have you seen what this guy has managed to do to certain players with his defense? He had Chris Paul having a fit when they last played us. And if your spouting around the overrated tag, how could you not lump Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood into the category? It is very evident that Brendan Haywood is playing well mostly because its a contract year; he's essentially Erick Dampier 2.0. As for Butler, he has never been better than the 3rd best player on his team and despite his individual talent never has seemed to be on top tier teams in the league. Makes you wonder just how valuable those numbers of his are. This isn't to say Butler could not help a team but I certainly believe it takes a lot more than meets the eye in order to make what he does on an individual basis useful for the entire team. I think thats why teams are very reluctant to commit anything more than expiring contracts to either player and particularly why a guy like Al Harrington who provides similar basketball effectiveness AND an expiring contract is more valuable than you assume. The Wizards are rebuilding and therefore need financial flexibility to rebuild.



Brendan Haywood has been the same player he's been for years, a fair defender, good shotblocker, pretty good rebounder, and he's got good enough hands to be an effective 4th option. Like it or not that passes as a more than serviceable big man these days.

As for Butler..how's he being overrated? Who's ever said he was anything than a third tier Small Forward at best? Am I saying he's a franchise player, or even a second option?

If you assume I'm overrating them because I wouldn't trade them for Jared Jeffries and Al Harrington than yes, they're more overrated than Adam Morrison coming out of college.

Harrington isn't half the player Butler is when used for full capabilities, numbers be damned. Harrington is athletic and can shoot, but Butler is one of the best players in the league off the dribble, he can pass better than the average wing player, he can run the offense...not the same at all. He's having a bad year because Saunders has him cast wrong within his offense as a pick and pop shooter ala Hamilton or Szceriuiujij..but just last year he was an all-star talent still in his prime.

People holler salary relief as if every team is expected to give up an all-star wing and solid starter at a weak position for that. You need to put Gallinari or Chandler in there to even keep Grunfeld on the phone. 

Why would the Wizards trade for a defensive stopper, as if they're about to contend for anything? Why would he be traded for an all-star wing and a solid Center? I'd rather keep Butler for the extra year then trade for Harrington, as if anyone of note is coming to DC this offseason. 

And teams are shortchanging the Wizards with expirings because they think they're desperate enough to move Jamison and Butler for relief after the ammo hour. They'd rather hold on to the two then get beat in a bad deal for them, and if a team doesn't pony up with at least one young building block they probably won't go anywhere.

At the end of your day, your proposal is:

Haywood = Expiring Center, above average
Butler = Expires in '10, all-star talent

for

Jeffries = Expires in '10, rotation wing
Harrington = Expiring Tweener, above average 

Be real with yourself. All contracts that expire within 2 years, but DC has the two most valuable players involved :laugh:

Like I said, you're stretching this to fit the Wizards in but whatever you're stretching it with popped. No reason for Washington to entertain this. They're better off standing pat.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Bogg said:


> I thought it went unsaid that New York is going to use their cap space to sign free agents this summer. It's been their plan for two to three years now. It's the whole reason that you want to get rid of Jeffries so badly. Anyways, yes, the Knicks should sign players to improve their roster this summer as opposed to going into next year with a 30 million dollar payroll.


No, no, no. New York is going to TRY to use our cap space this summer. There are no guarantees that we'll be able to sign anyone, which is why I never been a strong supporter of this team gutting plan.




Bogg said:


> That hypothetical rookie isn't taking the court until 2011-2012 at the earliest because the Knicks don't have the rights to their pick this year. Right now the Knicks have almost nothing in the way of a supporting cast to entice a top tier free agent, which begs the question of why an elite player in his prime would want to come to New York and be saddled with the worst team in sports. Maggette and Biedrins(when healthy) are at least legitimate starters to give the hypothetical free agents some confidence the team will be more than them alongside minimum salary players.


Cool, we can wait till 2011-2012 to get him rather than handicapping ourselves. In this league (or any business), options are power and commiting to expensive, long-term deals doesn't increase options IMO. Even if we were able to sign a top tier free agent, I'd be hesistant to add contracts like Biedrins and Maggette because it only takes a few losses to turn that player into a disgruntled one that wants a trade. Anyone recall what happened with Vince Carter in Toronto? I think this plan requires a lot more polishing than we're giving credit for.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> i'm going to disregard your made up numbers. why exactly are you doubling jeffries salary?


I actually included luxury tax for the following season, which is why the figure was skewed. The Wizards would not be paying luxury tax next season but who really knows considering that they only have 7 players under contract next season? This proposed trade still makes sense and here is why....

The Wizards would be shipping out $18.5 million worth of contracts in the deal. They'd be receiving $16.4 million in return. That right there is an immediate $2.1 million savings. Because the team is above the luxury tax that amount is doubled to $4.2 million in immediate savings the Wizards would recieve. 

If the Wizards did not make the deal, they would stand to save just $6 million from Haywood's expiring contract and being paying $14.6 million between Butler and Stevenson's contract. If they made the deal, they'd save $10 million from Harrington's expiring contract and be paying just $6.8 million for Jefferies contract. Now the difference between $14.6 million and $6.8 million is $7.8 million. Add that $7.8 million to the $4.2 million for this season and that is $12.0 million they'd save from making the deal. *Add the $3 million the Knicks would hypothetically include and the total increases to $15 million.* This is still a lot of money. Check it out at hoopshype.



rocketeer said:


> a better question would be what doesn't butler do better than harrington? butler is literally better at everything. i guess when playing for the knicks it can be argued that harrington is butler's equal as a scorer but that's it.


When did Butler become a better perimeter shooter than Harrington? 3-point shooter? When did he become a better rebounder? They're just about even in that department. I give Butler the edge as a scorer but again, that difference isn't much.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Dre™ said:


> Brendan Haywood has been the same player he's been for years, a fair defender, good shotblocker, pretty good rebounder, and he's got good enough hands to be an effective 4th option. Like it or not that passes as a more than serviceable big man these days.
> 
> As for Butler..how's he being overrated? Who's ever said he was anything than a third tier Small Forward at best? Am I saying he's a franchise player, or even a second option?
> 
> ...


You know how many seasons Haywood has averaged double digit rebounding? None. If he completes this season, then it would be his first at 10.3rpg. In fact, the guy has almost matched all of his career highs this season...at 30 years old despite playing roughly the same number of minutes a night. You could sit there all you want and talk to me about how the guy is a solid player (which he is) but you'd be lying to yourself if you thought for a second that he's not over-exerting himself for his next contract.

As for Butler, you are overrating him by your assumption he merits anything more than expiring contracts, and mid-first round draft picks in exchange for him. In a league where we've seen franchise players like Shaq, Baron Davis, Vince Carter, etc. moved for expiring contracts and little to nothing else, you got to wonder what makes Butler so special; at least in your opinion. As much as only a fraction of what you said about Butler's talent is true, despite all his individual alcolades, the Wizards won just 19 games on a very deep roster last year. This isn't to say that the injuries they suffered were no devastating but a team with that kind of talent should have at least been contenders for the 8th seed. They weren't, even with Butler "run(ing) the offense" as the teams 2nd option. What does that really say especially when you don't have Flip Saunders to blame?

And like I said, they can always stand pat but it has become abundantly clear that the Wizards as constructed are doomed for failure. The best they can make of the situation really is to save as much money as possible (kinda like $15 million in my proposed deal) and begin they're rebuilding process (kind like what my proposed deal allows).


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

> the Wizards won just 19 games on a very deep roster last year. This isn't to say that the injuries they suffered were no devastating but a team with that kind of talent should have at least been contenders for the 8th seed. They weren't, even with Butler "run(ing) the offense" as the teams 2nd option. What does that really say especially when you don't have Flip Saunders to blame?


It says he's a 3rd tier SF, but shouldn't be anyone's second option obviously. And they weren't all that deep, they relied on a lot of youngins not ready for prime time. Young, Blatche, McGuire, for 3 all logged more minutes then they probably should have. The reason they lost so many games though is because they didn't play defense so most of the close ones went down the drain.



> At the end of your day, your proposal is:
> Haywood = Expiring Center, above average
> Butler = Expires in '10, all-star talent
> 
> ...


Like I said, they already know they're doomed to fail, I mean they already failed, but all those contracts expire in two years. Leonsis is making enough money that he doesn't need to save any tax money trading the two best players in the deal.

P.S. Shaq was traded for Lamar Odom and Caron Butler, not little to nothing. Relative to his value at the time not equal at all, but hardly Alonzo Mourning who doesn't want to stick around and whoever else. Either way Grunfeld isn't looking at his options relative to the market 5 years ago, I don't think he'd be foolish enough to let go of his a or b asset for expiring deals..because no star is going to occupy that cap space and sign onto a team like this. He'd rather sweat it out and let them expire then do something meaningless like this.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

TwinkieFoot said:


> No, no, no. New York is going to TRY to use our cap space this summer. There are no guarantees that we'll be able to sign anyone, which is why I never been a strong supporter of this team gutting plan.


New York will be signing someone this summer, the organization has spent the last two years tearing the roster down specifically for this summer and has no first round pick. The front office needs SOMETHING to show the fans next year to justify what they've done. It may wind up just being Rudy Gay or Carlos Boozer, but it'll be someone. Upgrading the supporting cast(it doesn't have to be Maggette+Biedrins, like I said, that was just off the top of my head) is going to increase the quality of free agent they'll be able to sign, and Jeffries and Curry aren't appealing to other teams. 






TwinkieFoot said:


> Cool, we can wait till 2011-2012 to get him rather than handicapping ourselves. In this league (or any business), options are power and commiting to expensive, long-term deals doesn't increase options IMO. Even if we were able to sign a top tier free agent, I'd be hesistant to add contracts like Biedrins and Maggette because it only takes a few losses to turn that player into a disgruntled one that wants a trade. Anyone recall what happened with Vince Carter in Toronto? I think this plan requires a lot more polishing than we're giving credit for.


If your idea is to keep a low payroll and shoot for the 2013 playoffs after a few draft classes and shrewd signings then that's nice and all, but it's clearly not the way the front office is going to go. There isn't a player on the roster you can build a team around and there's no draft pick coming this year, the Knicks have backed themselves into a corner.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Bogg said:


> New York will be signing someone this summer, the organization has spent the last two years tearing the roster down specifically for this summer and has no first round pick. The front office needs SOMETHING to show the fans next year to justify what they've done.
> 
> If your idea is to keep a low payroll and shoot for the 2013 playoffs after a few draft classes and shrewd signings then that's nice and all, but it's clearly not the way the front office is going to go. There isn't a player on the roster you can build a team around and there's no draft pick coming this year, the Knicks have backed themselves into a corner.


*Bogg....*u just about sum it all up in that response 

_The big question still remain unanswered:_ 

_Does T-Mac still want to play Basketball?_ 
All the money T-Mac made from 2001 to 2010, plus all the super big endorsements in the USA and China....would u still want to work after u gross close to $250M after a decade of Basketball??? 
Vince Carter did'nt gross half as much as T-Mac or Yao (the two made retirement money the past 4 years. check the past All-Star voting.). 

Walsh would be a fool to trade for T-Mac, if Eddy Curry is not included in the deal... 
:whiteflag::whiteflag::whiteflag:


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## Punk (Feb 4, 2010)

Bogg said:


> Jeffries is a useful defender, but he's overpaid and an offensive liability. Honestly, with it becoming clear that nobody's going to give up expirings for Jeffries or Curry, the Knicks should just try to turn them into useful players with (bad)contracts that don't make sense for their particular teams. Just as an example off the top of my head:
> 
> Golden State desperately needs to blow up their team and start over. Trading Jeffries and Curry's expirings this summer with Jordan Hill(or even Toney Douglas) for Maggette and Biedrins doesn't affect New York's cap space and gives them two useful players to help draw to veteran free agents. Golden State gets expiring contracts and a prospect to start their rebuilding, putting them in position to build around Ellis, Curry, Anthony Randolph, Jordan Hill, top ten picks the next two years, and a whole bunch of cap space in the summer 2011.


The Knicks would not look to get rid of Jordan Hill since he's improving and Jeffries is not trade-able unless the season is over. He's still a big part of their defensive rotation. Trading him now is senseless.

The only players the Knicks would trade for is Randolph (which is not happening) and Steph Curry or Monta which is not happen either. 

So, If anyone this year the Knicks could get...It's probably Raja Bell.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Along with Houston's first to Washington and the Knicks second.

Does this sound fair?


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Punk said:


> The Knicks would not look to get rid of Jordan Hill since he's improving and Jeffries is not trade-able unless the season is over. He's still a big part of their defensive rotation. Trading him now is senseless.


Well, that's sort of why I specified that the trade would happen this summer. Maggette/Biedrins for Jeffries/Curry/Hill(or even Douglas would work) makes no sense for either team this season, but on draft night it's not a bad move for either team.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

urwhatueati8god said:


> Along with Houston's first to Washington and the Knicks second.
> 
> Does this sound fair?


Somehow I doubt we'll see a three-team, seventeen-player trade this week.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Bogg said:


> Somehow I doubt we'll see a three-team, seventeen-player trade this week.


Ha ha. I was being facetious with all the rumors and suggestions being thrown around in here.


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## Punk (Feb 4, 2010)

urwhatueati8god said:


> Along with Houston's first to Washington and the Knicks second.
> 
> Does this sound fair?


Jesus Christ, I've never seen trade like that ever. If something like that happens, It would be during the off season.

The Knicks are still well in hand for a playoff push, so a trade like that would just be waving the white flag.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

If that trade went through every team involved would have to do the Opening night introduction all over again.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

It's simple to me. If the Knicks can't land a top level talent in free agency, they need to sign quality players to bang for the buck contracts and stay under the cap if possible.

I'd much rather the Knicks go through another year of losing with cap space for 2011 free agents and a chance to have a high lottery pick than sign guys and stay mediocre. Also by staying under the cap they can reap the benefits of a team that may go bust next season.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Dre™ said:


> It says he's a 3rd tier SF, but shouldn't be anyone's second option obviously. And they weren't all that deep, they relied on a lot of youngins not ready for prime time. Young, Blatche, McGuire, for 3 all logged more minutes then they probably should have. The reason they lost so many games though is because they didn't play defense so most of the close ones went down the drain.


And what 3rd tier SF you know then would command much more than expiring contracts when franchise players have been moved for as much? As for the comment about the Wizards depth, your mistaken because they are plenty deep enough. Youth is no longer an excuse for players/teams when you have teams like the Grizzlies, Blazers and Thunder all in the playoffs on teams whose average age is less than 25. Never mind the fact that those teams do not have the veteran experience of a Caron Butler or Antawn Jamison to boast.





Dre™ said:


> Like I said, they already know they're doomed to fail, I mean they already failed, but all those contracts expire in two years. Leonsis is making enough money that he doesn't need to save any tax money trading the two best players in the deal.
> 
> P.S. Shaq was traded for Lamar Odom and Caron Butler, not little to nothing. Relative to his value at the time not equal at all, but hardly Alonzo Mourning who doesn't want to stick around and whoever else. Either way Grunfeld isn't looking at his options relative to the market 5 years ago, I don't think he'd be foolish enough to let go of his a or b asset for expiring deals..because no star is going to occupy that cap space and sign onto a team like this. He'd rather sweat it out and let them expire then do something meaningless like this.


I'm absolutely sure, no owner would like the idea of shelling out extra money for a losing team, which the Wizards appear to be if they make the trade or not. Saving money is smart business sense, which is what this league is all about.

P.S., Shaq was just moved by the Suns for Ben Wallace and Sasha Pavlovic following an 18ppg, 8rpg campaign on 60% shooting. In spite of Shaq's age when he did it, not many big men at any age are capable of those numbers. As for this type of trade strategy being "relative to the market 5 years ago," obviously then you are not familar with the Pau Gasol deal that was based on little more than expiring contracts. To a lesser extent, Jamal Crawford (who is not worse than a 3rd tier option on any team) was moved for expirers this past summer and it has helped transform the Hawks into a title contender. The fact of the matter is the market 5 years ago in terms of value is not very different from the market today so long as the current Collective Bargaining Agreement is in effect.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Bogg said:


> New York will be signing someone this summer, the organization has spent the last two years tearing the roster down specifically for this summer and has no first round pick. The front office needs SOMETHING to show the fans next year to justify what they've done. It may wind up just being Rudy Gay or Carlos Boozer, but it'll be someone. Upgrading the supporting cast(it doesn't have to be Maggette+Biedrins, like I said, that was just off the top of my head) is going to increase the quality of free agent they'll be able to sign, and Jeffries and Curry aren't appealing to other teams.


I think Knick fans would be disappointed either way, which is why it would be prudent to sit on our hands should the right opportunity not present itself. Walsh has demonstrated his patience throughout his tenure as president and throughout his executive career. I doubt he makes any rash, knee-jerk reactions simply to do them because those kind of moves come back to haunt you e.g. the Bulls signing Ben Wallace, Knicks trading for Eddy Curry.






Bogg said:


> If your idea is to keep a low payroll and shoot for the 2013 playoffs after a few draft classes and shrewd signings then that's nice and all, but it's clearly not the way the front office is going to go. There isn't a player on the roster you can build a team around and there's no draft pick coming this year, the Knicks have backed themselves into a corner.


I think your being incredibly short-sighted. You don't build a team in a season or two making your point about the Knicks needing to do something because of a lack of a first round pick this year, mute. It is abundantly clear that in order to enjoy true success (easiest method), you need a bona-fide star. If you can't acquire that player via free agency, then the draft is your next best option. It's a long tideous process but sometimes you get lucky like the Thunder did and get a Kevin Durant, or lucky like the Bulls and get a Derrick Rose. In the meantime, what we can be doing is laying the groundwork necessary to expediate the process i.e. acquiring multiple draft picks, gaining greater cap flexibility and making prudent trades.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

BTW, to all the posters that believe the Knicks need to overpay some 2nd tier player should we miss out on 2010's creme-de-la-crop, do you realize that 2011 is stocked with excellent ball players? Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Kevin Durant, Jeff Green, OJ Mayo and Derrick Rose may all be made available. Why shoot ourselves in the foot in 2010 if you can be making moves later on? In either case, I prefer to build for the future because I see the Lakers dominating for the next 5 years and LeBron as the only building block capable of doing anything about that. If we can't get him, what would be the point in trying to build a contender during this span?


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

TwinkieFoot said:


> BTW, to all the posters that believe the Knicks need to overpay some 2nd tier player should we miss out on 2010's creme-de-la-crop, do you realize that 2011 is stocked with excellent ball players? Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Kevin Durant, Jeff Green, OJ Mayo and Derrick Rose may all be made available. Why shoot ourselves in the foot in 2010 if you can be making moves later on? In either case, I prefer to build for the future because I see the Lakers dominating for the next 5 years and LeBron as the only building block capable of doing anything about that. If we can't get him, what would be the point in trying to build a contender during this span?


Yeah. Sign a quality guy, to a decent contract if you must. The one true way to rebuild is through the draft... NY will have 17 million coming off the books for 2011, if they feel they cant land a 2011 free agent, trade curry and jeffries for draft picks to teams looking to avoid the luxury tax.


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