# Do the Knicks have a Spending Limit?



## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

> While the Sixers vied for a sign-and-trade for Jeffries, Philly weeks ago approached the Knicks, asking Thomas to make an offer for rejuvenated Chris Webber. A source said Thomas has been discouraged by Dolan to add significantly to the payroll after the Jeffries' splurge ($30 million, $30M luxury tax). New York Post
> 
> Hence, his offer was weak - Richardson ($32M, uninsured), Maurice Taylor's expiring pact and Malik Rose in one scenario for Webber and another player, a package that would not increase the Knick payroll. Obviously, the Sixers passed. But watch out at the trade deadline if the Knicks are in contention and Dolan reopens the vault. New York Post


Good timing Dolan. I think this mean Isiah is going to have to start winning before Dolan dole's out any more cash. It will be interesting what course they take with their expiring contracts this summer, though it won't be as important for Bulls fans.

CWebb would probably have brought in a few wins, I hope Dolan holds his stance for our sake.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Hustle said:


> CWebb would probably have brought in a few wins, I hope Dolan holds his stance for our sake.


Either Webber or K-Mart could bring the Knicks up to mediocrity. I hope for their sakes and for the sake of the Bulls pick next year that Dolan keeps his purse shut for a while longer.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

if webber can't even help the sixers to .500 with AI, i don't see how he's gonna be effective in NY

and kenyon? please, he's not a game changer at all


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

The ROY said:


> if webber can't even help the sixers to .500 with AI, i don't see how he's gonna be effective in NY
> 
> and kenyon? please, he's not a game changer at all


They're a lot better than Eddie Curry and Jerome James.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

The ROY said:


> if webber can't even help the sixers to .500 with AI, i don't see how he's gonna be effective in NY
> 
> and kenyon? please, he's not a game changer at all


They still would make NY better than they are now, which may not say a lot.


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

The scary thing about the Knicks is, despite the ridiculously high payroll and luxury tax concerns, they apparently remained a PROFITABLE team, when revenues are compared to liabilities. Imagine, with all that cash on hand, if they were actually able to make decent personnel decisions..

Whereas, the #3 market in the US masquerading as if were residing in deepest Omaha, remains in mortal fear of said luxury tax; indeed, certain members of the ownership group wake up from nightmare-related "luxury tax" episodes, shaking, with regular "uxury-tax" induced nightsweats, almost akin to post tramautic stress syndrome, as if they were reliving 'Nam or some other horrendous period in their lives....


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> Hence, his offer was weak - Richardson ($32M, uninsured), Maurice Taylor's expiring pact and Malik Rose in one scenario for Webber and another player, a package that would not increase the Knick payroll. Obviously, the Sixers passed. *But watch out at the trade deadline if the Knicks are in contention and Dolan reopens the vault*. New York Post


Contention for what?


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## frank9007 (Jul 4, 2006)

Haha It's nice to see Bulls fans scramble for their last hope the (Knick pick)

Consider yourself lucky last season, thank Larry Brown for the draft pick.

And you basically wasted that pick on Stromile Swift part 2.

The pick should have been early 20's, had Brown just coached and let them play.

Next season there won't be a lottery exchange beetween the Bulls and Knicks.

Isiah doesn't miss the playoffs.


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

frank9007 said:


> Haha It's nice to see Bulls fans scramble for their last hope the (Knick pick)
> 
> Consider yourself lucky last season, thank Larry Brown for the draft pick.
> 
> ...


Yes, indeed, as you definitively say, Isiah does not miss the playoffs at all....!


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## nanokooshball (Jan 22, 2005)

frank9007 said:


> Haha It's nice to see Bulls fans scramble for their last hope the (Knick pick)
> 
> Consider yourself lucky last season, thank Larry Brown for the draft pick.
> 
> ...


we'll see what Knicks fans say when we hear, "And with the number 1 pick traded to the Chicago Bulls from the New York Knicks, the Chicago Bulls select... *drum roll* Greg Oden!"


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

frank9007 said:


> Haha It's nice to see Bulls fans scramble for their last hope the (Knick pick)
> 
> Consider yourself lucky last season, thank Larry Brown for the draft pick.
> 
> ...



Are you serious? Man, thats taking homerism to a new extreme dude.


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## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

Ron Cey said:


> Contention for what?


For the first pick in the draft.


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## frank9007 (Jul 4, 2006)

ace20004u said:


> Are you serious? Man, thats taking homerism to a new extreme dude.


Go look at Zeke's coaching record and get back to me.

Zeke never missed the playoffs as coach of the Pacers, never.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

frank9007 said:


> Go look at Zeke's coaching record and get back to me.
> 
> Zeke never missed the playoffs as coach of the Pacers, never.


That is certainly the truth. 

Its a wonder he was fired.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

frank9007 said:


> Haha It's nice to see Bulls fans scramble for their last hope the (Knick pick)
> 
> Consider yourself lucky last season, thank Larry Brown for the draft pick.
> 
> ...


Last hope to be a dynasty maybe, we are already elite. 

Brown wanted to have a real team(like the Bulls), but over half the roster never played defense.

Tyrus is going to dunk on NY's big men in the Garden something Nasty.

Stay in school. Don't do drugs. 

Well he did last year as a GM, and wasn't it his job to get his group of guys in the right style of play.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

frank9007 said:


> Go look at Zeke's coaching record and get back to me.
> 
> Zeke never missed the playoffs as coach of the Pacers, never.


They made it before Zeke

and haven't missed it since he left.


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## Banjoriddim (Aug 14, 2004)

frank9007 said:


> Haha It's nice to see Bulls fans scramble for their last hope the (Knick pick)
> 
> Consider yourself lucky last season, thank Larry Brown for the draft pick.
> 
> ...


Optimist :biggrin: you may be better but I don't think NY is top 8 team (other teams have talet too if you didn't know) esp. considering they had no cemistry last year).


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

frank9007 said:


> Go look at Zeke's coaching record and get back to me.
> 
> Zeke never missed the playoffs as coach of the Pacers, never.


If past performance is a predictor of future success, Thomas should be coaching the Knicks until he's senile. After all, they will make the playoffs each year.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

frank9007 said:


> Go look at Zeke's coaching record and get back to me.
> 
> Zeke never missed the playoffs as coach of the Pacers, never.



Go look at Browns coaching record! He's worlds better as a coach, one of the elite level coaches and we all saw how that went down. Zeke had some limited success coaching a good Indiana team, what else has he done that I am unaware of coaching wise? I actually am a big Crawford & Curry fan and I like some of your youngsters like Frye, Robinson, & David Lee but lets be realistic here...If the Knick make the playoffs I would be shocked..and if they do make it they will be creeping in and be a first round exit at very best.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Contention for what?


I thought the Knick was pretty contentious last season......


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! said:


> Yes, indeed, as you definitively say, Isiah does not miss the playoffs at all....!



After all, if he actually missed the playoffs, wouldn't he be trying harder to get back to them?!


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

The knicks would be downright foolish to trade away one of their expiring deals now when they're the only team with enough of them to make a sensible offer for Garnett when he finally demands a trade after seeing his team is still a mess in a couple months.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Hopefully the Knicks are able to add Kenyon Martin, Chris Webber, and Lebron James to their roster, it seems every trade that they gain talent in just bumps up their loss total!


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

frank9007 said:


> Haha It's nice to see Bulls fans scramble for their last hope the (Knick pick)
> 
> Consider yourself lucky last season, thank Larry Brown for the draft pick.
> 
> ...


Oh, come on. He probably misses the playoffs a little bit. It's been five or six years since he's been there, and he had some of his best times as a player there. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

Does anybody out there know what the largest increase in wins from one season to the next is? The Knicks won 23 last year. Has any team ever gone from 23 wins to 45 or 50 in a single season? Is there precedent for a 25 win increase?


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Come on Frank, you know the Knicks season is over before it even started, and they'll never be picking in the mid 20's (until after the pick swap)


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

jbulls said:


> Oh, come on. He probably misses the playoffs a little bit. It's been five or six years since he's been there, and he had some of his best times as a player there. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
> 
> Does anybody out there know what the largest increase in wins from one season to the next is? The Knicks won 23 last year. Has any team ever gone from 23 wins to 45 or 50 in a single season? Is there precedent for a 25 win increase?


23 to 47 by the Bulls.

I think the Suns went from like 29 to 62 wins.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

frank9007 said:


> Go look at Zeke's coaching record and get back to me.
> 
> Zeke never missed the playoffs as coach of the Pacers, never.


If Zeke can get this bunch of losers into the playoffs this year by trading terminal contracts or whatever, my hat is off to him. I'm sure he's going to do everything he can to bring a winning season.

However, I'm willing to bet that I'll be able to keep my hat on at the end of the season, and NY will hand the Bulls a lottery pick. Most folks on the Bulls boards feel that the Knicks will be improved this year, if only because they were so bad last year and LB is now gone. 

IMO the Knicks will be even worse this year than they were last. Last year the Knicks won most of their games with Antonio Davis playing in the middle. After he left, the Knicks interior defense was similar to the red sea after Moses did his thing. The Knicks have no-one who can stop opposing big men from scoring or who can reliably defend the paint. Opposing teams will emphasize layup drills before playing them.

The current Knicks have very few players who can or will play defense night in and night out. I doubt IT is going to get Crawford, J Rose, Marbury, Curry, Richardson, James and Francis to start playing tough defense when no other coach has been able to get them to do it. Frye and Robinson aren't very scary in that category either. Even after the acquisition of Jefferies, the Knicks are probably the worst defensive team in the NBA. 

On offense the Knicks have talent, but that talent will be difficult to coordinate. Their guards play a selfish, playground style of BBall, their center can't pass out of a double team and their wingmen (Rose, Q) have a way of jacking up ill-advised shots. The team has a large number of players who are capable of putting up a lot of points fast, so they will have some good scoring nights. But their inability to play team ball -- finding the open man -- will kill them in close games when opposing teams ratchet up their defense.

So I predict that the Knicks will have a worse season this year than they did last year.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

jbulls said:


> Does anybody out there know what the largest increase in wins from one season to the next is? The Knicks won 23 last year. Has any team ever gone from 23 wins to 45 or 50 in a single season? Is there precedent for a 25 win increase?


The Spurs went from 20 wins to 56 wins in Tim Duncan's rookie year. 

Of course, they added Tim Duncan who was a legit MVP candidate as a rookie. They also essentially re-added David Robinson since he only played in 6 games the year before. 

But in all fairness, the Knicks added some players as well: Ronaldo Balkman, Mardy Collins, and Jared Jeffries. Its kinda the same thing.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> The Spurs went from 20 wins to 56 wins in Tim Duncan's rookie year.
> 
> Of course, they added Tim Duncan who was a legit MVP candidate as a rookie. They also essentially re-added David Robinson since he only played in 6 games the year before.
> 
> But in all fairness, the Knicks added some players as well: Ronaldo Balkman, Mardy Collins, and Jared Jeffries. Its kinda the same thing.


My thoughts exactly. I think on that Spurs team that they also added Sean Elliott who had missed most, if not all, of the previous season also. But c'mon! [sarcasm] Balkman, Collins, Jeffries >>>>>>>> Duncan, Robinson, Elliott [/sarcasm]


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## Wishbone (Jun 10, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> The Spurs went from 20 wins to 56 wins in Tim Duncan's rookie year.
> 
> Of course, they added Tim Duncan who was a legit MVP candidate as a rookie. They also essentially re-added David Robinson since he only played in 6 games the year before.
> 
> But in all fairness, the Knicks added some players as well: Ronaldo Balkman, Mardy Collins, and Jared Jeffries. Its kinda the same thing.



yes, it's true, the Knicks added three likely MVP candidates with Balkman, Collins and Jeffries, which just about garuntees 35-40 more wins this year. Not to mention the MVP candidates they already have in Malik Rose, Nate, David Lee, Mo Tayor and Jerome James.
so the sad state of affairs is that the Bulls won't get a lottery pick... 
but it won't matter anyway, since we already have the true Greatest Player of All-Time in our young, precocious Thabo, who will invariably lead the Bulls to championships in every year of his career.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

McBulls said:


> IMO the Knicks will be even worse this year than they were last. Last year the Knicks won most of their games with Antonio Davis playing in the middle. After he left, the Knicks interior defense was similar to the red sea after Moses did his thing.


I love AD and will never forget how important he was to the Bulls in the apparently fluky, meaningless 47-win season of 2004-2005, but he was pretty much the Knicks' worst player last year (him and Taylor and Rose), and a liability in virtually every area -- defense, offense, special teams, you name it.

http://www.82games.com/0506/05NYK15D.HTM


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

MikeDC said:


> The knicks would be downright foolish to trade away one of their expiring deals now when they're the only team with enough of them to make a sensible offer for Garnett when he finally demands a trade after seeing his team is still a mess in a couple months.


Exactly. They are the only team that has the contracts, 'big' names, and the 'talent' to give back to Minnesota. I can see the Knicks getting KG if they give up young guys like Fyre, along with the contracts. KG has always liked playing with Steph. The idea is not far fetched of him going to NY. Its a matter of 3 things happening for this to occur 1) Knicks Winning, 2) Wolves losing, and 3) Isiah not making a dumb move prior to the deadline. It's really hard to count on all 3 to happen though :biggrin: .

The Knicks have talent, but that does not always correspond to winning. Their bigs don't play defense. They aren't great rebounders either. They have the talent on offense to be the Phoenix of the East. But there isn't more than one ball on the court to share. I think there will be some tension between the 'Franchise' and 'Star'bury. Add JC to that mix, along with Nate who isn't a pass first PG. You got issues. Q will have to get his share of time too along with Jeffries and Jalen Rose. If Isiah makes as big of an impact as he and the Knicks roster preaches, it won't be more than 10-15 wins. That's being generous that this team finishes near 40 wins. They got the talent to do so, but I don't see them having that discipline. 

You can expect certain Vets to not play as Isiah will favor the young guys he brought in. Maybe Collins and Balkman will receive lots of PT as Isiah will want to prove that he did not make a boneheaded pick at #21?. 

I see these teams as locks for the playoffs in the East: Miami, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, New Jersey.

Teams very likely to get in: Milwaukee, Washington

And I see these these teams battling out for the final position: Indiana, Philadelphia, *Orlando*, and Yes, *Charlotte*. I think Charlotte is a superior team to the Knicks, and possibly better than Indiana and Philly. They are gritty, disciplined, and now have a scorer for that team. If Emeka can stay healthy, watch out.

NYK has a lot of work to do. I know teams look for a Vet presence, but the Knicks don't really have that leadership you want.


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## nanokooshball (Jan 22, 2005)

frank9007 said:


> Go look at Zeke's coaching record and get back to me.
> 
> Zeke never missed the playoffs as coach of the Pacers, never.


what you didn't hear was that his Pacers teams grossly underacheived with all that talent, they were 40-45 win teams both seasons. The season after he was fired the Pacers went 61-21

...i can just imagine what his record will be with the knicks :biggrin:


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

nanokooshball said:


> what you didn't hear was that his Pacers teams grossly underacheived with all that talent, they were 40-45 win teams both seasons. The season after he was fired the Pacers went 61-21
> 
> ...i can just imagine what his record will be with the knicks :biggrin:


Wasn't Isiah's last season with the Pacers the one where they started off super hot and then had a bunch of weird stuff happen, like Jermaine O'Neal seeing his stepdad blow his head off his shoulders, Tinsley losing a grandma who raised him, multiple suspensions of Artest, etc.?

Just saying the difference between 48 and 61 wins might not be as pronounced as it looks.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> Wasn't Isiah's last season with the Pacers the one where they started off super hot and then had a bunch of weird stuff happen, like Jermaine O'Neal seeing his stepdad blow his head off his shoulders, Tinsley losing a grandma who raised him, multiple suspensions of Artest, etc.?
> 
> Just saying the difference between 48 and 61 wins might not be as pronounced as it looks.


I'm not sure about that, but they also lost to the 6th seeded Celtics I think in the first round. I think they won two games, maybe one, that series. Thus the firing of Isiah, and the hiring of Carlisle. 

We'll see how it goes with the Knicks. He is the coach all of his players want. But that may be because he is more of a friend than a General/Commander (a la Sloan, Skiles, etc). We'll see. He did help the Pacers improve through their initial years as a young team.


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## Bulls rock your socks (Jun 29, 2006)

bulls
pistons 
cleveland
miami
orlando 
milwaukee
boston

indiana or philly will make the playoffs


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> The knicks would be downright foolish to trade away one of their expiring deals now when they're the only team with enough of them to make a sensible offer for Garnett when he finally demands a trade after seeing his team is still a mess in a couple months.


*Garnett:* "Forget this, this team is a mess! All it knows how to do is LOSE! Trade me to the Knick!"

*Wynn!:* "hehehehe....... the Knick. Yeah, that's the ticket. What an upgrade!"


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

frank9007 said:


> Haha It's nice to see Bulls fans scramble for their last hope the (Knick pick)
> 
> Consider yourself lucky last season, thank Larry Brown for the draft pick.
> 
> ...



OMG, how'd you let your life get so out of control?

This is how I felt when I passed that beggarly woman and her baby on Sedgwick yesterday and wanted to give her something but knew it wouldn't be enough.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> Wasn't Isiah's last season with the Pacers the one where they started off super hot and then had a bunch of weird stuff happen, like Jermaine O'Neal seeing his stepdad blow his head off his shoulders, Tinsley losing a grandma who raised him, multiple suspensions of Artest, etc.?
> 
> Just saying the difference between 48 and 61 wins might not be as pronounced as it looks.


I think it was the first round ouster by the Celtics that really did him in, not the win total. I also recall him being ripped relentlessly in the press for horrible in game coaching in that series. Then came the allegations that he was lazy, showed up late/left early from practices, and didn't put in any extra time.


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## Philomath (Jan 3, 2003)

OUR last hope... man. Pot, meet kettle. Stone, meet glass house. Wow. :laugh: 

That's maybe my favorite thing about NY fans in general and Knick fans in particular... They can experience the greatest embarrasment of a season in memory in any sport, and many still come out firing. In the dark ages, would we have started any post about anyone else's team with "Haha"? I really do have to begrudgingly admire their lack of self awareness or shame, in a way. Their team is a warning to mankind on the dangers of hubris, but a good number of them are still cocky. Good for them I guess.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Philomath said:


> In the dark ages, would we have started any post about anyone else's team with "Haha"?


 :laugh:


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## frank9007 (Jul 4, 2006)

LOL Isiah underachived with the Pacers?

That team lost veterans.

Isiah molded that team into a championchip contender.

He was the all star game head coach in his last year as coach and the Pacers were the best team in the east at that point.

Then JO's fathers death came, Tinsley's injuries ect.

O'neal never played the same that year, and Tinsley aswell.

He developed all the players on the Pacers.

They were among the youngest team in the NBA.

If anything he overachived with them.

Just remember this, when he took over the Pacers people din't even expect a playoffs with the youth movement.

They had no starting point guard.

The Knicks will be in the playoffs next season, at the expense Brown who will be exposed.

It's funny how Bulls fans really think the Knicks won't make the playoffs, when the Knicks are more talented and deeper than most teams in the east including the Bulls.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)




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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

Philomath said:


> OUR last hope... man. Pot, meet kettle. Stone, meet glass house. Wow. :laugh:
> 
> *That's maybe my favorite thing about NY fans in general and Knick fans in particular... They can experience the greatest embarrasment of a season in memory in any sport, and many still come out firing. In the dark ages, would we have started any post about anyone else's team with "Haha"? *I really do have to begrudgingly admire their lack of self awareness or shame, in a way. Their team is a warning to mankind on the dangers of hubris, but a good number of them are still cocky. Good for them I guess.


Generalizing an entire fan base without evidence to back up that claim will more than likely make your statement inaccurate.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

Kitty said:


> Generalizing an entire fan base without evidence to back up that claim will more than likely make your statement inaccurate.


He said many not all. And Frank is the evidence.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

frank9007 said:


> LOL Isiah underachived with the Pacers?
> 
> That team lost veterans.
> 
> Isiah molded that team into a championchip contender.


he molded a team that made the conference finals the year before? losing Dale Davis and older than dirt players in Smits and Marc Jackson didn't hurt as much as JO helped.


> He was the all star game head coach in his last year as coach and the Pacers were the best team in the east at that point.


Isiah knew he owed that sucess to the Bulls, because of the Artest/Miller trade, he seems insistant on paying us back though.


> Then JO's fathers death came, Tinsley's injuries ect.
> 
> O'neal never played the same that year, and Tinsley aswell.
> 
> ...


Again they didn't lose quality vets, and they gained very high quality youngsters, and kept their best players from before Isiah came in.


> They had no starting point guard.


so Isiah only molded the youngsters that never played his position.



> The Knicks will be in the playoffs next season, at the expense Brown who will be exposed.


actually the Knicks won't be in the playoffs, and a lot of the NY players will be exposed for being a little stupid and a little lazy, trust us Eddy will lead the way, oh wait I forgot James.


> It's funny how Bulls fans really think the Knicks won't make the playoffs, when the Knicks are more talented and deeper than most teams in the east including the Bulls.


I disagree, but even if your right we are talking 2002 USA Olympic team more talent.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

It's a shame Larry Brown got fired, really. It gave the Knick fans a scapegoat for absolutely everything.

Whereas, more realistically - whilst Larry made the Knicks crap_per_, he didn't make them crap.


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## frank9007 (Jul 4, 2006)

Hustle said:


> I disagree, but even if your right we are talking 2002 USA Olympic team more talent.


Insert Larry Brown.

I bet Carmelo,Wade,Bron are diying for Larry the Clown to coached them LOL.

And i am right about the Knicks talent.

And to everything you saod well your entitled to your opinion, but i disagree.

The 1st year JO was still developing and was still not that good.

And if you think losing your starting front court, and your starting point guard that took you to many conference finals and then the NBA Finals 

I remember Reggie say that losing Davis,Smiths,Jackson was a step back, but it was step to the future.

I trust him more than you.

Writers and fans said the Pacers would be lucky to make the playoffs.

Isiah had a alot do with those Pacers JO,AL,Ron,Miller,Tinsley all benefited and they acknoledge him and respect him.

Isiah will do the same with these Knicks, but with more talent he should do even better.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

frank9007 said:


> Insert Larry Brown.
> 
> I bet Carmelo,Wade,Bron are diying for Larry the Clown to coached them LOL.
> 
> ...


If I remember correctly, every journalist was on the Pacers nuts because how tough they played in the playoffs the year before, and said the future was bright with the way Mercer, Artest, and Miller played for the second half of hte season.


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## frank9007 (Jul 4, 2006)

sloth said:


> If I remember correctly, every journalist was on *the Pacers nuts because how tough they played in the playoffs the year before, and said the future was bright with the way Mercer, Artest, and Miller played for the second half of hte season.*


Yeah but i was talking about 2000-2001 season when Isiah took over the Pacers, who lost Jackson,Smiths,Davis.

The Pacers added a RAW JO and nothing else worth mentioning.

The Pacers din't trade for Miller and Artest until 2002.


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## Salvaged Ship (Jul 10, 2002)

Isiah is a bum. Actually, I apologize for this if it offends bums. He is responsible for this mess of a team, one of which is without a doubt the biggest cast of overpaid selfish overrated crybaby bums ever assembled. Highest payroll in league history for a team that wins 23 games? He hired in a hall of fame coach, a guy who had made the finals two years in a row. They stink and it was all Brown's fault? No one could of made that team win short of someone with the initials J.C. (Not Jamal Crawford)

Again, the over the hill, ball hogging, no defense, overpaid bums are non coachable. Thomas came into Indiana replacing Bird. He couldn't hold Bird's jock on the court or as a coach. That Pacers team then became big time underachievers. Many times I watched Isiah just sit there looking clueless as to what to do with that Pacer team. With these Knicks, you would think he was paid to mess them up entirely.

Seriously, if someone came into the Knicks a few years ago and was asked to ruin the roster, destroy cap flexability, get rid of future draft picks, burn as much money as possible for nothing in return, assemble as many of the worst overpaid, over the hill, non-team playing, no defense bums you can on one roster, alienate all of the fans, then wouldn't you look at what has happened and say it was as if someone was paid to destroy the team for years? And now the cherry on top, the bum himself is going down to the bench to coach this bunch of misfits. Perfect coach for this team. Isiah must have compromising pictures of the owner and various farm animals, or this owner is just plain dumb as a box of rocks.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

frank9007 said:


> The Pacers added a RAW JO and nothing else worth mentioning.


13,10 and leading the league in blocks isn't that raw. It is better than all of those vets. Smit retired, was a shell of his former self. Jackson never played significant basketball again


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

frank9007 said:


> Insert Larry Brown.
> 
> I bet Carmelo,Wade,Bron are diying for Larry the Clown to coached them LOL.


Those guys were nothing compared to what they are today.



> And if you think losing your starting front court, and your starting point guard that took you to many conference finals and then the NBA Finals
> 
> I remember Reggie say that losing Davis,Smiths,Jackson was a step back, but it was step to the future.
> 
> I trust him more than you.


No argument there, they did take a step back.



> Writers and fans said the Pacers would be lucky to make the playoffs.


They had no idea JO was goin to be the most improved player in the league, by a humungous margin.



> Isiah will do the same with these Knicks, but with more talent he should do even better.


I wish I had friends like you, my friends like to gamble.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Frank is saying many of the same things I've said about the Knicks this year.

The Knicks will feel like they got out of jail now that Brown is gone. It's no mistake that the Knicks dropped by the same amount of wins that the Pistons gained after swapping Brown. The Knicks will be at least ten wins better just on the virtue of not having Larry Brown.

I also think that their last year's draft was worth a couple lottery drafts. Lee, Frye, and Robinson are all outstanding players. And I liked what I saw of Balkman in summer league. Isiah knows talent. T-Mac, Camby, Artest, Miller, Frye--he's got a long list of great picks. This year it's just about putting his vision on the floor.

Most of you guys think he's an idiot boob. He's going to suprise people. The only reason he got fired from Indiana was really because Larry Bird has a personal grudge against him. Isiah might be the most disliked guy in the modern game, but he still plugs on. I kind of root for him at this point. Nobody deserves as much stick as Isiah gets at every turn.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Hustle said:


> They had no idea JO was goin to be the most improved player in the league, by a humungous margin.


Isiah did. Just like he knew about Artest. Like he knew about Miller. Like he knew about T-mac. Marcus Camby. Like he knew about Frye, Lee, and Robinson.

He's talking about Eddy Curry the way he used to talk about JO. I think Isiah is going to be the guy who brings it out of Eddy.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Isiah did. Just like he knew about Artest. Like he knew about Miller. Like he knew about T-mac. Marcus Camby. Like he knew about Frye, Lee, and Robinson.
> 
> He's talking about Eddy Curry the way he used to talk about JO. I think Isiah is going to be the guy who brings it out of Eddy.


Bird brought in Miller, Artest, and JO not Isiah. Robinson has a lot to prove before he's considered a good player. Lee was absolutly the best player available at his pick. It seems he has an alright eye for young talent, just not how to put a team together.

Eddy can't get any worse can he? Seriously I wonder how namy times Isiah is going to have to tell Eddy to "jump" for a rebound the way Skiles did.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Frank is saying many of the same things I've said about the Knicks this year.
> 
> The Knicks will feel like they got out of jail now that Brown is gone. It's no mistake that the Knicks dropped by the same amount of wins that the Pistons gained after swapping Brown. The Knicks will be at least ten wins better just on the virtue of not having Larry Brown.
> 
> ...


Seriously? You seriously think the Knicks will be better for NOT having a HOF coach? I don't understand that logic. They didn't listen when Brown preached about things like "defense" and "team ball" why are they suddenly going to buy into what IT has to say? I have a feeling IT will let them run freer and they will come out firing away and chucking and not playing defense and lose just the same way they lost last season. They could win a few more games on pride alone, that wouldn't surprise me, but I definitley don't think replacing Brown with IT is going to help them.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> Seriously? You seriously think the Knicks will be better for NOT having a HOF coach? I don't understand that logic. They didn't listen when Brown preached about things like "defense" and "team ball" why are they suddenly going to buy into what IT has to say? I have a feeling IT will let them run freer and they will come out firing away and chucking and not playing defense and lose just the same way they lost last season. They could win a few more games on pride alone, that wouldn't surprise me, but I definitley don't think replacing Brown with IT is going to help them.


Ace,I agree with many of the Anti Zeke rants,but it was pretty obvious Larry Brown had another agenda besides winning...

Like everyone in NY,Larry Brown naively assumed that 10 million per meant that he was in charge of all basketball operations.As history demonstrates he was incorrect in that assumption,and he has now gone the way of the dinosaur.

As for his coaching of the team,he couldnt have done a worse job if he tried...maybe because he was trying to prove a point..There is no question larry is/was a great coach.But that does not mean he is a great coach for every team.As an example,would you rather have Dantoni coaching the Suns or Larry Brown???

Give Zeke credit where credit is due..He is probably the best in the league at recognising young talent,and young "potential" seems to flourish under him..And to Zekes credit,its clear from the moves he has made this year,that Larrys words ring loudly in his ears...Any other year,Darius Miles would be on our roster...Balkman,Collins and Jeffries may not fill up a stat sheet,but they will give 100% effort and not be a cancer if they recieve a DNP...

I do believe the Knicks will have a breakout season,much to the chagrin of Bulls fans...I expect Zeke to bring out the best in Curry,and Jeffries is just what was needed at the 3.Questions remain regarding Steph and Franchise(he should come off the bench) in the backcourt,but if the Knicks make a collective effort on the defensive end,they are easily a playoff caliber team


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Frank is saying many of the same things I've said about the Knicks this year.
> 
> The Knicks will feel like they got out of jail now that Brown is gone. It's no mistake that the Knicks dropped by the same amount of wins that the Pistons gained after swapping Brown. The Knicks will be at least ten wins better just on the virtue of not having Larry Brown.


It's amazing how Larry Brown was the end-all-be-all before the start of last season and now he's some sort of nincompoop who completely screwed up the Knicks. He's won it all in college and the pro's. He hasn't changed and he still knows more about the game than just about anyone on the planet. How the players are absolved of responsibility for the Knicks downward spiral is just beyond me.



> I also think that their last year's draft was worth a couple lottery drafts. Lee, Frye, and Robinson are all outstanding players. And I liked what I saw of Balkman in summer league. Isiah knows talent. T-Mac, Camby, Artest, Miller, Frye--he's got a long list of great picks. This year it's just about putting his vision on the floor.


Ummmmmm. Lee is a 8th or 9th man-type player. A career journeyman. Frye is decent but soft and not a good defender. Robinson, while capable of exciting plays, is an idiot. I think it's pretty much a stretch to classify any of the three as outstanding players, let alone all of them. Balkman won't amount to much. An undersized PF who has a motor but not much size is going to have a hard time making his way in the league. Artest was chosen by Krause and the Bulls. Miller went undrafted and got his start in Charlotte. I'm not understanding how Thomas gets credit for those "picks".



> Most of you guys think he's an idiot boob. He's going to suprise people. The only reason he got fired from Indiana was really because Larry Bird has a personal grudge against him. Isiah might be the most disliked guy in the modern game, but he still plugs on. I kind of root for him at this point. Nobody deserves as much stick as Isiah gets at every turn.


He is a boob. How this guy still has a job is beyond me. He's ruined pretty much everything he's touched on the business side of the game. He got fired from the Pacers because he kept getting a legitimate NBA Finals-calibre team bounced in the first round of the playoffs. He's currently "guided" the Knicks from a respectable club to being a joke. He did zip with the Raptors. He bankrupted the CBA. With that body of work, he shouldn't be able to get a job as a burger flipper an McDonalds!

Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice - shame on me. Zeke has fooled folks about a half dozen times and yet he still gets praised. He truly is the Teflon Man.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

fl_flash said:


> It's amazing how Larry Brown was the end-all-be-all before the start of last season and now he's some sort of nincompoop who completely screwed up the Knicks. He's won it all in college and the pro's. He hasn't changed and he still knows more about the game than just about anyone on the planet. How the players are absolved of responsibility for the Knicks downward spiral is just beyond me..


Larry Brown did not screw up the Knicks.Larry Brown screwed himself,and it wasnt the first time,nor will it likely be the last...


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

truth said:


> E]Ace,I agree with many of the Anti Zeke rants,but it was pretty obvious Larry Brown had another agenda besides winning...


Do you really think that, or maybe he just wouldn't settle for a team that didn't play d.


> As for his coaching of the team,he couldnt have done a worse job if he tried...maybe because he was trying to prove a point..There is no question larry is/was a great coach.But that does not mean he is a great coach for every team.As an example,would you rather have Dantoni coaching the Suns or Larry Brown???


That may be true, but wasn't it Zeke's call to make.



> Give Zeke credit where credit is due..He is probably the best in the league at recognising young talent,and young "potential" seems to flourish under him..And to Zekes credit,its clear from the moves he has made this year,that Larrys words ring loudly in his ears...Any other year,Darius Miles would be on our roster...Balkman,Collins and Jeffries may not fill up a stat sheet,but they will give 100% effort and not be a cancer if they recieve a DNP...


What great picks has he made? Lee was a no brainer, Frye a no brainer, Robinson is not a player I will conceed is a good talent, this years rookies don't look promising(Collins was my bust predidction before the Knicks took him, even Balkman admitted he was surprised when the Knicks drafted him), Jeffries I like but not at the cost, Eddy is not the cornerstone he thought he would be.He's an alright drafter, but far from elite. 



> I do believe the Knicks will have a breakout season,much to the chagrin of Bulls fans...I expect Zeke to bring out the best in Curry,and Jeffries is just what was needed at the 3.Questions remain regarding Steph and Franchise(he should come off the bench) in the backcourt,but* if *the Knicks make a collective effort on the defensive end,they are easily a playoff caliber team


They have to be better than last year by default. That is the biggest if I've ever heard on this board. So they won't play d for a defensive minded coach, but they will for Isiah? Jeffries will help, too bad Butler and Davis are gone and they have no interior d.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

truth said:


> Ace,I agree with many of the Anti Zeke rants,but it was pretty obvious Larry Brown had another agenda besides winning...
> 
> Like everyone in NY,Larry Brown naively assumed that 10 million per meant that he was in charge of all basketball operations.As history demonstrates he was incorrect in that assumption,and he has now gone the way of the dinosaur.
> 
> ...



I don't think Larry Browns coaching gig at the Knicks was as disengenious as you make it out to be. I think he came in there trying to coach some fundamental principles into the players like defense and team ball and they tuned him out...for whatever reason. They began listening but then when they couldn't win doing things his way he lost control of them. Reversing bad habits takes a lot of time and I think that the players just figured since they played defense that game they should have won...not realizing that playing defense is something you do every game and build on every game too. I'm not sure what "other agenda" he would even have. He took a big payday and the challenge of coming in and fixing the Knicks and the Knicks didn't want to be fixed. Maybe he did expect to have some pull with GM'ing decisions..it isn't that unusual and he probably should have had more input. Personally, if I were a Knicks fan, I would rather have Larry Brown as GM than IT. Not because IT doesn't recognize talent but more because he doesn't seem to understand jib and roster balance. You can't put a bunch of "me first" guys together and have a team. That being said clearly not ALL of the Knick players are "me first" just enough of them to make it a bad mix.

IT is ONE of the best in the league at recognizing young talent...I'll admit that. I don't think he is THE best and I don't really think he is going to be much better at getting the best out of the Knick players than Brown was. With IT the players will have a different mentality, they will feel freer to do their thing, which is great except doing their thing doesn't win ball games..playing good team defense and team ball does...


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

as far as the knicks go if you really want to debate their talent there is easy way to do it.

compare their team of 2 years ago to next season's , last season was basically horrible, and the damning thing to me was there were supposedly players who thought LB was mad that they were winning during their 6 game winning streak , whether or not brown wanted to lose is debateable enough but the big thing to me is that there were players on the team thought that. I doubt very much at any point in Skiles' tenure will a bull ever feel thats the case or even suspect it. that team was lost and in my opinion incomparable. 

Marb/jermaine Jackson
Craw/penny/houston
Tim Thomas/ariza/Jerome williams
Kurt Thomas/malik rose/Jackie butler
Mike sweetney/mo taylor/sundov

This team won 33 games

Marbs/nate robinson/collins
Crawford /steve francis/ jalen rose
Jared Jeffries/ qrichardson /renaldo balkman
Channing frye/ david lee/malik rose
Eddy curry/Jerome james/mo taylor 

With the team most likely not bringing back ime udoka or qyntel woods next season.

I don’t see how the 2nd group cant be at least as successful as the 1st group 

Marbury and Crawford are about as good as they were 2 years ago so I’m calling it a wash.

At small forward tim Thomas that year played horrible until late febuary, he couldn’t shoot and played no defense making him virtually useless for the 1st 45-50 games , in fairness to him he had a hand injury and his sister died as well as a cousin within a week’s time the previous offseason and he had the burden of caring for her kids and it took him quite a while to get healthy and get his home life straight and once he did he was playing very well…similar to playoffs Tim Thomas.

Jared Jeffries is an Ok player more of a glue guy than anything else, plays D , passes unselfishly , plays smart for the most part, not a good scorer …he should be more useful than Thomas was for most of the season, since all they want him to do is play defense and make hustle plays while other guys get shots anything he contributes on offense is gravy , ditto for Richardson who should have a much better season btw as he suffered from hand , leg and back woes last season, if not balkman is a carbon copy of Jeffries with less height and more energy and offense if summer league is an indication, they can also swap in david lee or jalen rose if need be. But unless Jalen starts playing defense I doubt he’ll play much…Zeke would bench him in the 4th quarters for defensive purposes, and he really doesn’t need his offense now.

At the power spots curry and frye are better than sweetney and kurt Thomas, bulls fans after seeing sweetney last season and curry the year before all know curry is better sweetney basically lived in skiles’ doghouse. Curry who wasn’t allowed to break a sweat for 6 months before training camp still shot 56% from the field, frye is better than kurt Thomas he can shoot just as well , and he can post up and makes hustle plays here and there and while curry and frye are considered bad rebounders their overall size make the knicks as a whole very formidable rebounders who outrebounded opponents by 2.8 last season as opposed to the kurt and sweets combo who were outboarded by 2.0 …defensively both were for the most part a step slow on rotations, like sweets tends to be , out of the 4 kurt Thomas is really the only one who play defense , but frye was improving , in the game he got hurt in he had 4 blocks by the midway point in the 3rd quarter showing he was finally getting the hang of things on that end, but if not he will at least be more productive offensively.


The rest although I expect francis to start if he doesn’t his contributions are sure to be at least as good penny hardaway, who was essentially sent home after the allstar break that season leaving Jermaine Jackson as the primary backup at both spots. I can honestly say I think every player on the knicks roster is better than Jackson, nate robinson is a pretty good player he scores well , can shoot well from 3 point range (.397) and is a good defensive guard even as a rookie…his pg skills are weak though, essentially a poor man’s Gordon.

David lee is a good tweener , brown seemed intent on making him a 3 but in summer league he was back at the 4 and playing well, at both spots last year he was good at rebounding and shooting well (.596 fg%)

I don’t expect much from Mardy Collins at best he plays some defense in spot minutes as he learns the nba game…a rich man’s Jermaine Jackson.

Jerome james for all the flack he takes is sure to be of more help than sundov and Jackie butler of that season seeing as they played a combined 78 minutes.

Mo taylor and malik rose were on the roster 2 years ago and are basically the same level of player they were then so to me it’s a wash , but I don’t expect them to play much because the knicks have a lot of better players in front of them which they didn’t 2 years ago.


Basically at the 4& 5 spots they are much bigger and better , on the bench and at the starter spots.

At small forward they get less talented , but that talent sucked for most of the season so it should be about the same.

And at guard its JC and marbury , the same as then , but with steve francis and nate robinson instead of Jermaine jackson and a MIA penny hardaway.

coaching its lenny wilkens and herb williams and now I.Thomas, I'll call it a wash, i think the knicks had a team that had 33 win talent so they combined for a decent job. in indy zeke about the same with the pacers so i'm going to call it even, he took a young team and got them to the playoffs for 3 years.

i think the knicks win at least 5 more game than the team 2 years ago did, just off the talent upgrades alone.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

Grinch, I think you could take NY's roster last year and break it down into having more talent as well. The additions of Jeffries, Balkman, and Collins aren't spectacular, especially considering AD and Butler are two of the guys being replaced, the other Woods is definitly more talented than Collins, though I wouldn't want him on my team either.

also 38 wins would put NY in the playoffs, are you making that bold statement?


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Da Grinch said:


> as far as the knicks go if you really want to debate their talent there is easy way to do it.
> 
> compare their team of 2 years ago to next season's
> Marb/jermaine Jackson
> ...


This is a well thought out analysis. But I don't agree with your conclusion. 

The Knicks front line is much weaker defensively than it was two years ago. They don't have anyone like JYD or even Ariza or Butler who will defend the paint. Malik Rose and Mo Tayor are two years older and slower. Sweetney with all his faults is a better defender than Curry, and, all things considered (rebounding, passing), nearly as good offensively. Lee and James don't improve things.

The backcourt is a traffic accident in progress. The Knicks are missing consumate pros like Hardaway and Houston who might bring sanity to the playground posturing the current crew bring to the table.

The eastern conference is a lot tougher this year than it was two years ago.

Lenny Wilkens was one of the best NBA coaches of all time, and IT is no Lenny Wilkins.


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## 7RINGS? (Sep 28, 2004)

frank9007 said:


> Haha It's nice to see Bulls fans scramble for their last hope the (Knick pick)
> 
> Consider yourself lucky last season, thank Larry Brown for the draft pick.
> 
> ...


Admitting you have a problem is the 1st  step to 
recovery.The Knicks are in big trouble and Isaiah is going to blow it just like he did in Indiana,just like how he's blowing it now. :clap:


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

McBulls said:


> This is a well thought out analysis. But I don't agree with your conclusion.
> 
> The Knicks front line is much weaker defensively than it was two years ago. They don't have anyone like JYD or even Ariza or Butler who will defend the paint. Malik Rose and Mo Tayor are two years older and slower. Sweetney with all his faults is a better defender than Curry, and, all things considered (rebounding, passing), nearly as good offensively. Lee and James don't improve things.
> 
> ...


I don't think the Knicks will be very good next year, but I disagree with a couple points here:

1. Lenny Wilkens had an illustrious career as an NBA head coach, but I'm not sure he was doing much more than running on fumes towards its conclusion.

2. I think Eddy Curry is a better defender than Sweets. I thought Eddy was okay defensively in 04-05, I've never thought of Sweets as anything but bad.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

McBulls said:


> This is a well thought out analysis. But I don't agree with your conclusion.
> 
> The Knicks front line is much weaker defensively than it was two years ago. They don't have anyone like JYD or even Ariza or Butler who will defend the paint. Malik Rose and Mo Tayor are two years older and slower. Sweetney with all his faults is a better defender than Curry, and, all things considered (rebounding, passing), nearly as good offensively. Lee and James don't improve things.
> 
> ...


the knicks frontline was incredibly undersized .

the biggest guy who got time was tim thomas , and when your small forward is your most imposing physical specimen you are in trouble, esecially when that guy play as soft as tim does on defense.

mike sweetney wasn't any thinner as a knick and he didn't have a tyson chandler helping him from the weakside, the interior was a turnstyle that season with kurt the only guy really doing anything , jerome williams was for the majority of the time a small forward.

penny quit on the team and spent the last 2 months home in orlando, he was certainly not the consumate pro, H2O was but he played 20 games and could barely move, and to be honest he had to get over some issues with Zeke Thomas signing crawford to be his replacement for that season because Isiah correctly assumed Houston wouldn't be able to contribute much, but he came around soon enough.

i find it hard to believe that you actually think since neitherH2O or Penny) were around a week after the all star break and the knicks then signed jermaine jackson , that he as their main back up (with ariza chipping some time at the 2) is really better than nate robinson , steve francis, quentin richardson if they choose to slide him over and mardy collins...if a guy isn't playing well Zeke has the option of going to some1 else while if jermaine jackson wasn't playing well his option was to play crawford and marbury more and that was basically it over the last 2 months. and before houston and penny were gone it wasn't like there was great play going on ...at that point both were having career worst seasons.

and for all the chatter about sweets being nearly as good on offense, not just from you but on the board in general, the truth was he wasn't if so he would have played more, the man shot 45% from the field its hard to believe curry will ever have a season where he'll shoot so low, and for guy who basically lives on lay ups and post up shots for both of these guys thats pretty low...sometimes you actually have to put the ball in the basket to be called a good offensive player...he does have comparable skills but even the curry of last season was a substantial upgrade over sweetney of the season before ...and he unlike sweetney could defend his man very well without fouling.

basically sweets is a very strong power forward forced to play center, but its not his best place and on that alone curry will always be a better fit hopefully sweetney will be allowed to defend and be defended by weaker power forwards, he should go back to being very efficient if that were to occur.

mo taylor is 29 and rose is 31 they are older but hardly old and i am pretty sure they as power players are considered in their prime right now.

as for wilkens i think he was a fine coach but you can only consider his job so well since it was essentially equalled by herb williams the 2nd half of the season, i dont think you would say herb did a hall of fame job for 3 month would you?

the 2 of them met expectations considering what they had to work with zeke did the same ...i've actually gone back and read what was thought of indy's chances for success in zeke's years ...in every instance he met expectations , nobody thought his teams were all that good just "promising" until his last year when they played above expectations and then imploded with all that drama.

people get too caught up with jib for the most part, the jazz and blazers over the past 2 decades have been at times incredibly successful putting on long playoff runs of about 20 years and both have fallen off and were in the lotto the past couple years , the point being there are so many ways to build a team, the knicks appear well built now, you may not like the players but outside of a stronger defensive presence out of the post players they really do have everything it takes to be very successful. how successful i dont know how it will play out , but they are now a team with no glaring weaknesses

they are athletic , big , fast, they rebound very well, and now have an ample amount defensive role players to compliment their scorers, and a coach they like and want...there are teams that do very well with less.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

jbulls said:


> 2. I think Eddy Curry is a better defender than Sweets. I thought Eddy was okay defensively in 04-05, I've never thought of Sweets as anything but bad.



Sweets has bad footwork and tends to make reaching fouls on defense, but at least he reaches. Curry often doesn't even bother to try make a stop on a penetrating player or a man who has beaten him. The difference between the two is apparent when you compare the shot blocks each gets. Sweetney 0.85/18.5 min, Curry 0.78/25.9 min. You would think the taller, more mobile player would do better.

When it comes to man defense on opposing centers, I think the two are comparable, even though Sweetney is clearly the smaller player. In the Miami playoff series, I thought Sweets played Shaq pretty well.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

jbulls said:


> Lenny Wilkens had an illustrious career as an NBA head coach, but I'm not sure he was doing much more than running on fumes towards its conclusion.


I hate it when sports commentators comment on Wilkins being a great coach. His winning is up there with his *losing*. Winning coaches have Wins >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Losses. Wilkins has Wins = Losses. 

I agree with the sentiments in favor of Larry Brown. His track record indicates the type of coach he is. His personality did not fit with the Knicks players or the management. You have to blame someone, and it's always easiest to change coaches. So, he was shown the door.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

McBulls said:


> Sweets has bad footwork and tends to make reaching fouls on defense, but at least he reaches. Curry often doesn't even bother to try make a stop on a penetrating player or a man who has beaten him. The difference between the two is apparent when you compare the shot blocks each gets. Sweetney 0.85/18.5 min, Curry 0.78/25.9 min. You would think the taller, more mobile player would do better.
> 
> When it comes to man defense on opposing centers, I think the two are comparable, even though Sweetney is clearly the smaller player. In the Miami playoff series, I thought Sweets played Shaq pretty well.


Sweetney benefits from low expectations against Shaq, IMO. He played him sort of okay in the Miami playoff series, but I don't think we expect anything out of him defensively. When we get a little something we give him credit. The opposite is true with Curry. He looks the part so we expect him to play Shaq with some measure of effectiveness. When he fails to (and yes, I know Shaq absolutely abused him for the most part) we're disappointed. Sweetney is a guy who picked up the first charge of his competitive basketball career LAST SEASON. Anything is a plus with him.

The block statistics you site are a little misleading - Sweetney's career high was 0.4 BPG going into last season. He doubled it last year, and it remains to be seen if that was an abberation or not. Curry posted the worst block rate of his career last season. Curry has blocked an average of 0.9 shots over 23.7 minutes in his career. Sweets has blocked 0.5 over 17.5 MPG. There's not much in it, but Curry generally has blocked more shots than Sweets.

Obviously we're not arguing Bill Russell vs. Ben Wallace here. Neither of these guys are plus defenders. I do think that the '04-'05 model of Eddy Curry was way, way more effective than Michael Sweetney has ever been on the defensive end.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

theanimal23 said:


> I hate it when sports commentators comment on Wilkins being a great coach. His winning is up there with his *losing*. Winning coaches have Wins >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Losses. Wilkins has Wins = Losses.
> 
> I agree with the sentiments in favor of Larry Brown. His track record indicates the type of coach he is. His personality did not fit with the Knicks players or the management. You have to blame someone, and it's always easiest to change coaches. So, he was shown the door.


I understand that the only statistic one can quote about coaches is their won/loss percentage. But coaches have little control over the talent they are assigned to coach. Lenny coached a lot of teams that had mediocre talent at best.

We'll leave aside the accodades Lenny received from players he coached and his peers. Perhaps such things are easily acquired.

But given that NBA coaches tend to have very short tenures on their jobs, another statistic that would be worthy of tracking would be the total number of games they managed to coach in the NBA. After all, if management felt they weren't doing their best they would have been fired (and not picked up by another team). In that statistic, Lenny is the leader.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

jbulls said:


> The block statistics you site are a little misleading - Sweetney's career high was 0.4 BPG going into last season. He doubled it last year, and it remains to be seen if that was an abberation or not. Curry posted the worst block rate of his career last season. Curry has blocked an average of 0.9 shots over 23.7 minutes in his career. Sweets has blocked 0.5 over 17.5 MPG. There's not much in it, but Curry generally has blocked more shots than Sweets.


Well considering neither is much of a shot blocker, how about the fact Sweetney is twice the rebounder soley due to effort. Rebounding is a big part of defense. Eddy's reach and height makes them about equal. It's close, if Eddy one day puts in effort he will have the edge, if Sweets works on his body he may take it.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Hustle said:


> Well considering neither is much of a shot blocker, how about the fact Sweetney is twice the rebounder soley due to effort. Rebounding is a big part of defense. Eddy's reach and height makes them about equal. It's close, if Eddy one day puts in effort he will have the edge, if Sweets works on his body he may take it.


I think you can have a conversation about defense and leave rebounding out of the equation, but since you brought it up I'll bite. The difference between Curry and Sweetney as defensive rebounders is minimal. Career numbers:

Player/Defensive Rebounds/Minutes:

Sweets: 3.1/17.5
Curry: 3.4/23.7

Last season's numbers:

Sweets: 3.5/18.6
Curry: 4.0/26.0

We're really not talking about a very big difference here.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

jbulls said:


> I think you can have a conversation about defense and leave rebounding out of the equation, but since you brought it up I'll bite.


When you are talking about big men, that is absolutly wrong.


> Player/Defensive Rebounds/Minutes:
> 
> Sweets: 3.1/17.5
> Curry: 3.4/23.7
> ...


But I've seen plenty of both and Sweets is noticably better, the margin may be small. Sweets was on a better rebounding team last year, and has improved from his rookie year, Eddy not so much.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Hustle said:


> But I've seen plenty of both and Sweets is noticably better, the margin may be small. Sweets was on a better rebounding team last year, and has improved from his rookie year, Eddy not so much.



Eh?

Curry's rookie defensive rebounding rate: 2.2/16.0
Curry's 05-06 defensive rebounding rate: 4.0/26.0

Sweetney's rookie defensive rebounding rate: 2.1/11.8
Sweetney's 05-06 defensive rebounding rate: 3.5/18.6

Sweetney actually hasn't improved as a defensive rebounder since his rookie season, he's gotten worse. Curry has gotten better.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

I don't understand why you guys are so concerned with the Knicks organization, maybe you should be more concentrated on if the Bulls can get out of the first round without losing 4-2.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Gotham2krazy said:


> I don't understand why you guys are so concerned with the Knicks organization, maybe you should be more concentrated on if the Bulls can get out of the first round without losing 4-2.


Let me see if I can get this straight...

1. You're a Knicks fan.

2. You're posting on the Bulls board.

3. The purpose of your post is to tell Bulls fans to stop talking about the Knicks.

Pot/kettle/black?


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

jbulls said:


> Eh?
> 
> Curry's rookie defensive rebounding rate: 2.2/16.0
> Curry's 05-06 defensive rebounding rate: 4.0/26.0
> ...


Based on the #'s you gave they both improved, but playing with Jalen and MoTaylor is not the same as playing next to Noce and Tyson.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

Gotham2krazy said:


> I don't understand why you guys are so concerned with the Knicks organization,


The swap next year. Curry, Crawford, and Rose being former Bulls.


> maybe you should be more concentrated on if the Bulls can get out of the first round without losing 4-2.


There is a thread or 2 about the Knicks, and how many for the Bulls? Trust me wanting the Knicks to do bad is a very distant second to wanting our Bulls to do well on this board. We lost our 2 leading scorers before our first playoff run, the Heat(champs by the way) players gave the Bulls credit for being the toughest team they played in the east. We have more talent, more experience, are deeper than ever before. Have fun in the lottery, I mean with your midlevel exception next year.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Hustle said:


> When you are talking about big men, that is absolutly wrong.
> 
> But I've seen plenty of both and Sweets is noticably better, the margin may be small. Sweets was on a better rebounding team last year, and has improved from his rookie year, Eddy not so much.


incorrect .

the knicks last year outrebounded opponents by 2.8 boards a game and were one of the top rebounding teams in the league. a 4.8 swing in rebounding from the previous season where the knicks were outrebounded by 2.0 a game.

in the last 2 seasons *curry* has actually been on the better rebounding team...it certainly helps that he is a natural center...while in both situations sweets has been out of position.

also sweets rebounded at a better rate his rookie year than last season , and was 2nd in off. rebounds per minute that year.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> incorrect .
> 
> the knicks last year outrebounded opponents by 2.8 boards a game and were one of the top rebounding teams in the league. a 4.8 swing in rebounding from the previous season where the knicks were outrebounded by 2.0 a game.
> 
> ...


Alright gotta conceed I was wrong about that. I knew Eddy was their leading rebounder and naturally assumed they weren't that good of a rebounding team, but they had a lot of balance through out the roster in that category. NY and Chi both out rebounded on the defensive glass by 1 and .7 respectivily, so I guess that point is null and viod. But I stand by the defensive rebounding is an essential ingredient in a bigman's defensive ability. 

Sweet defensive rebounding rate has improved very little, but his improvement has been better than Eddy's by an even smaller margin. Not even worth bringing #'s into it, it's so close. Bottom line Sweetney currently has an edge on Eddy on the defensive glass by very little, Eddy's man on d gets a very slight edge, they are bout equal defenders, who ever wants it more will eventually get the edge.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Like I've said before, Curry knows how to box out 2-3 people which allows his teammates to grab the rebounds. He's not the guy you want at the end of the game to secure a rebound to clinch the game, but throughout the wear and tear of the main course of the game, he's a good guy to have on your team rebounding wise.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

frank9007 said:


> It's funny how Bulls fans really think the Knicks won't make the playoffs, when the Knicks are more talented and deeper than most teams in the east including the Bulls.


I'm still trying to figure this TALENT thing out from NY fans

Ya'll brag on how talented ya'll players are but you don't realize it takes more than TALENT to win in the NBA.

Ya'll not more talented than the bulls, aren't smarter and don't play harder.

Marbury = career loser
Curry = Underachiever
Crawford = decent combo guard
Frye = best thing going for ya'll
Franchise = been in decline mode for a while now
Mailk Rose? Jalen Rose? Maurice Taylor? Jarred Jefferies? Renaldo Balkman?!?!!?!? Mardy Collins???

Where is this talent? LMAO All ya'll have is players that were SUPPOSED to be something but never amounted to anything.

So, if that's talent and that's what you're banking on for wins, pass me some of that weed homie.

IMO, ya'll got one of the worst rosters in the NBA. Even looking at ya'll on paper makes no sense.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

sloth said:


> Like I've said before, Curry knows how to box out 2-3 people which allows his teammates to grab the rebounds. He's not the guy you want at the end of the game to secure a rebound to clinch the game, but throughout the wear and tear of the main course of the game, he's a good guy to have on your team rebounding wise.


you know people have been on the eddy is an abysmal rebounder kick since his rookie year and for the most part people have been wrong...for instance both tyson and eddy rebounded at virtually the same pace their rookie year but somehow tyson was a dynamo rebounding while eddy was a slouch.

eddy does his job , he is not a great leaper he has some leaping ability and he certainly isn't a quick leaper , he's no ben wallace basically , but he knows that . On a team like the bulls 2 years ago or the knicks last year all he really had to do was go hard on the offensive glass which he certainly did and box out on the defensive end allowing the small guys, and on the bulls tyson and antonio also to swoop in and get the boards. the bulls and knicks the past 2 seasons have some of the better perimeter rebounders in the league .

kirk is a good rebounder ,as are nocioni , deng , steve francis, qyntel woods , david lee, & qrichardson, ...these guys are going to win the rebounding edge most nights against their opposition ...they have a better chance than curry does against most centers so he essentially boxes out and lets them have the glory for the good of the team.

it is worth noticing that sweets went to the bulls and though he is a better individual rebounder and with nocioni's &deng's improvement they had the same + 1.1 rebounding avg. that they had with curry while the knicks without sweetney and kurt thomas actually improved by nearly 5 boards a game with 2 guys whom most consider soft and poor rebounders in frye and curry as their new team leaders in rebounding.

sometimes perceptions are wrong, and guys are actually doing the smart thing by not going for rebounds but instead doing some of the dirty work allowing others to shine.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> sometimes perceptions are wrong, and guys are actually doing the *smart *thing by not going for rebounds but instead doing some of the dirty work allowing others to shine.


Are you still talking about Curry? I know what your saying but in Eddy's case I'd chalk it up to his size, not smarts.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Hustle said:


> Are you still talking about Curry? I know what your saying but in Eddy's case I'd chalk it up to his size, not smarts.


you can chalk it up to whatever you like but the man plays basketball for a living (there are quite a few guys his size actually not good enough to play in the nba ), plus he has alot of coaches over the years watching his game advising him on aspects of it.

to assume you know his capabilities better than he does is foolish, even if you somehow think you know his body than he does do you also know better than the coaches who watch him too?


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> you can chalk it up to whatever you like but the man plays basketball for a living (there are quite a few guys his size actually not good enough to play in the nba ), plus he has alot of coaches over the years watching his game advising him on aspects of it.


There are not many guys with Curry size and natural strength and althetisism that can't play in the league, my guess is there isn't any, at least who have played ball. His coaches have advised him to go for rebounds and jump, all 3 of them. Not to say they haven't also worked on boxing out for teammates but it would be a lot more wise of Eddy to go after a lot of those rebounds himself. Most of the time he is just slow to react and starts boxing out too late. It may be because of foolishness or laziness, probably a little of both.


> to assume you know his capabilities better than he does is foolish, even if you somehow think you know his body than he does do you also know better than the coaches who watch him too?


I have no idea where that is coming from, I'm pretty sure his coaches would like him to rebound considering he is one of the 5 biggest guys in the league with perhaps more athletism than any of the guys ahead of him. Boxing out for teammates is helpful and coached, but it's not the main stay of how coaches want a team to rebound.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I'm still trying to figure this TALENT thing out from NY fans
> 
> Ya'll brag on how talented ya'll players are but you don't realize it takes more than TALENT to win in the NBA.
> 
> ...


have to disagree with you on the talent level of the Knicks..They are very talented..

Your case against Marbury is silly..You could make the same assessment of Garnett by your logic..

Certainly Curry is an underacheiver,but the talent is there

If Franchise has been in decline mode for a while now,what does that say about your prize aquisition,Big Ben??Hes been declining as well..

Jeffries??The guy took a little over 5 SPG...I think its a bit early to judge him


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Hustle said:


> There are not many guys with Curry size and natural strength and althetisism that can't play in the league, my guess is there isn't any, at least who have played ball. His coaches have advised him to go for rebounds and jump, all 3 of them. Not to say they haven't also worked on boxing out for teammates but it would be a lot more wise of Eddy to go after a lot of those rebounds himself. Most of the time he is just slow to react and starts boxing out too late. It may be because of foolishness or laziness, probably a little of both.
> 
> I have no idea where that is coming from, I'm pretty sure his coaches would like him to rebound considering he is one of the 5 biggest guys in the league with perhaps more athletism than any of the guys ahead of him. Boxing out for teammates is helpful and coached, but it's not the main stay of how coaches want a team to rebound.


thats the thing though , his athletic ability is not like that , and height and girth with some mobility does not really compete with the garnett's and the marions in rebounding the only guy as big and wide as curry in the top 40 in rebounding is Shaq at #38, shaq is old but he was always a top rebounder , but he does get off the floor far quicker than curry even at his advanced age. ...most good rebounders do ...i've been watching curry play ball for years and basically some people have that special knack for rebounding and some dont...curry is one that doesn't but he could get more #s but he would not be as useful going for the ball as he is boxing out.

for instance why is shawn marion a better rebounder than amare, all the stuff you say curry has against other centers as an advantage stoudemire has over marion...and no one questions amare's hustle.


and coaches want the ball they dont care who gets it as long as the guy is on their team, a smart team rebounds as one ...the teams with dominant rebounders are not usually the best rebounding squads, in fact 3 of the top 5 rebounders were on teams that didn't outrebound their opponents...all were not as good the knicks were last season .


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

truth said:


> have to disagree with you on the talent level of the Knicks..They are very talented..
> 
> Your case against Marbury is silly..You could make the same assessment of Garnett by your logic..
> 
> ...



Big Ben still HELPS , and at a very high rate...

while Franchise couldn't even get the magic CLOSE to the playoffs in the east....

Yeah, Curry has talent........SO? LOL what exactly does he do with it?

Marbury is garbage....he's the only person I've ever seen that averages 20 & 8 and it means absolutely NOTHING...oh wait, no he's no the only one...and Shareef to that list too....

Jefferies is garbage...don't play yourself


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> thats the thing though , his athletic ability is not like that , and height and girth with some mobility does not really compete with the garnett's and the marions in rebounding the only guy as big and wide as curry in the top 40 in rebounding is Shaq at #38, shaq is old but he was always a top rebounder , but he does get off the floor far quicker than curry even at his advanced age. ...most good rebounders do ...i've been watching curry play ball for years and basically some people have that special knack for rebounding and some dont...curry is one that doesn't but he could get more #s but he would not be as useful going for the ball as he is boxing out.


Oh come on, he played here for 4 years, and always had the knock of being lazy on the boards, by the fans, coaches, media... I didn't see much of him last year, but boxing out was part of that knock on him here as well. When he does box out he is good at it, and it is effective for his teammates, but you don't coach your centers to box out and not go for the boards, and that was definitly not the case here in Chicago. Eddy definilty has crazy athletic ability, there is probably no center in the league that can finish the fast break like him, even despite his mass.



> for instance why is shawn marion a better rebounder than amare, all the stuff you say curry has against other centers as an advantage stoudemire has over marion...and no one questions amare's hustle.


Well Amare isn't more athletic, I don't think anyone is, but regardless size doesn't equal rebounds I'll agree with that. I've actually have heard questions of Amare's d, but haven't seen enough myself to comment.



> and coaches want the ball they dont care who gets it as long as the guy is on their team, a smart team rebounds as one ...the teams with dominant rebounders are not usually the best rebounding squads, in fact 3 of the top 5 rebounders were on teams that didn't outrebound their opponents...all were not as good the knicks were last season .


That's a scewed stat, when a team has bad rebounders the good rebounders are bound to grab a few more.

Bottom line, Eddy should be a better rebounder and should also be better at almost every aspect of the game. He has a ton of potential and has not lived up to it.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Big Ben still HELPS , and at a very high rate...
> 
> while Franchise couldn't even get the magic CLOSE to the playoffs in the east....
> 
> ...


Whether Big Ben helps or not,his game has been on a steady decline...
The topic was talent,so stay on topic....

marbury = garbage is a ridiculous statement...Is Garnett garbage?? Not sure i see your point


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

truth said:


> Whether Big Ben helps or not,his game has been on a steady decline...
> The topic was talent,so stay on topic....
> 
> marbury = garbage is a ridiculous statement...Is Garnett garbage?? Not sure i see your point


Comparing Marbury to Garnette is like comparing Ashlie Lelie to Tory Holt. Its so off base it isn't even funny.

And Marbury IS twice baked @ss.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> Comparing Marbury to Garnette is like comparing Ashlie Lelie to Tory Holt. Its so off base it isn't even funny.
> 
> And Marbury IS twice baked @ss.


Well then,tell me why marburys 20 and 8 is meaningless while KG's numbers make him elite..

I dont see Garnett walking around with a ring on his finger...

Comparing marbury to garnett is just an extension of the originals posters bashing of marburys numbers.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

truth said:


> Well then,tell me why marburys 20 and 8 is meaningless while KG's numbers make him elite..
> 
> I dont see Garnett walking around with a ring on his finger...
> 
> Comparing marbury to garnett is just an extension of the originals posters bashing of marburys numbers.


I think Marbury is overly criticized. Lets just get that out of the way.

But Marbury has been to the playoffs, I believe, once. Ever. 

While KG has not done had much success in the playoffs, he has led numerous under-talented teams to the playoffs and even made the conference finals once.


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## Wishbone (Jun 10, 2002)

truth said:


> Well then,tell me why marburys 20 and 8 is meaningless while KG's numbers make him elite..
> 
> I dont see Garnett walking around with a ring on his finger...
> 
> Comparing marbury to garnett is just an extension of the originals posters bashing of marburys numbers.


it would help your argument if Marbury had ever been on a team with a winning record...
which he was on once. his rookie year.
Marbury has also had some pretty good teammates in his career -- Garnett, KMart, Marion, Stoudamire

Garnett has been on winning teams *most* of his career. the last two seasons have been an obvious slide and not playing with quality teammates has played a factor in that.

the argument gets a little murky once we start talking playoffs. Marbury has never been past the first round in two tries. Garnett has only made it past the first round once, in 8 consecutive years. neither has that good of a track record -- but KG's is clearly superior


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Wishbone said:


> it would help your argument if Marbury had ever been on a team with a winning record...
> which he was on once. his rookie year.
> Marbury has also had some pretty good teammates in his career -- Garnett, KMart, Marion, Stoudamire
> 
> ...


My point was riduculous,but no ore ridiculous than the original posters assessment of marburys talent..And one would think a 7'0 KG should be able to lead his eam past this first round more than once


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

truth said:


> My point was riduculous,but no ore ridiculous than the original posters assessment of marburys talent..And one would think a 7'0 KG should be able to lead his eam past this first round more than once


oh marbury's very talented. especially with the new league rules, he can single handedly keep a team in a game slashing and getting to the ft line, hitting jumpers. but that's his fatal flaw, he trusts his talent more than anyone elses. to be fair he tried to be the setup pg larry brown wanted (and he was pretty good at it) but it wasn't translating to wins. this experiment helped balance his game out, but as the losses mounted he reverted to starbury mode and it didn't help the team much either.

i think the big problem ahead of the knicks is marbury/francis and how they work with the team. they have good big men options in curry and frye. the question will be can they keep those two involved. if they do they could surprise some teams but curry has never been vocal or demanding of the ball. frye was pretty quiet too but who knows. 

so maybe i'm just being hopeful for a lotty pick for the bulls but i see marbury and francis resorting to a lot of 1 on 1 play (it's a recurring theme in their history) and that's much easier to defend as a team as opposed to an offense where everyone can be involved.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

truth said:


> Well then,tell me why marburys 20 and 8 is meaningless while KG's numbers make him elite..
> 
> I dont see Garnett walking around with a ring on his finger...
> 
> Comparing marbury to garnett is just an extension of the originals posters bashing of marburys numbers.


Both players are very talented. I guess one reason why many people value KG more than Marbury is the perception is that Marbury has difficulty playing within a system (as evidenced by the reports of clashes with different coaches he has had), while KG is perceived as being the prototypical team player who give 100% every game, even when it is meaningless.

To my eyes, Marbury is head and shoulders better than the next best player on the Knicks (take your pick) talentwise. He is capable of taking over a game on either end of the floor, and is a talented passer. But more frequently he inexplicably disappears for long periods of time in a game or fails to show up mentally at all. That's a very bad thing for a point guard to do. IMO a good psychoanalyst might improve his performance (and that of the Knicks) considerably.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

truth said:


> My point was riduculous,but no ore ridiculous than the original posters assessment of marburys talent..And one would think a 7'0 KG should be able to lead his eam past this first round more than once


Perhaps. But Garnett really has been hamstrung by the Joe Smith fiasco and, to a lesser extent, his own absurd contract. He's had absolutely nothing around him for most of his career. I hesitate to pass judgement on Garnett for another reason - he's a big, and his strength isn't scoring. Garnett does everything very well, but he's not the kind of guy who can single handedly take over a game, he's not the guy making decisions with the ball and he's not that gifted a scorer. A guy like Kevin Garnett, for all of his value, needs to be complimented by good guard play. It's all for naught if he isn't.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

When I watched Indy play the Bulls last season, their offense was intriguing. They ran a ton of isolation plays to exploit mismatches. That was basically the whole offense.

If the Knicks run this kind of offense, they're going to win a lot more games than people want to believe. It maximizes the kind of overwhelming (on paper) talent that the Knicks appear to have over opponents. It makes a lineup with Francis and Marbury on the court at the same time work extremely well - whichever guy has the best matchup, isolate for him, and the other becomes a decoy. If they can exploit a matchup with Curry inside, the can easily do that, too.

The reverse is true, on defense. The knicks do have to have a lineup that isn't a bunch of matadors. Looking at Francis' history (statistics), he's quite able to play big on the defensive end (look at his rebounding ability!).


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