# Big man situation: What happens when Perk gets back?



## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

By Tuesday we'll probably be 7-1. We've played a tough schedule -- Heat on opening day, the Bucks, the Bulls, and the Thunder. A 7-1 start is impressive for any team, and I'm glad we're on the right track to getting a good seed. But what makes this even more impressive is the fact that we're doing this without our ideal team. We've been playing without perhaps the most important players outside of the Big 4 (Perk and West). Plus, we've played without Shaq most of the time, and we haven't seen Jermaine at 100%.

The depth of this team is amazing. Its just real fun to watch this team beat other teams with 10 players and from all different angles. I don't think any team can compete with our depth when we have everybody. We're deep to the point where its gonna be tough to figure out what to do with this depth. This is true mainly for the big man positions. When Perk is back in starting spot, who do we play at the 2 backup big man positions? The problem is that we have 3 candidates for 2 positions.

The biggest story of the bench has been Big Baby. He's averaging 13 points on 57% shooting, and 5 rebounds in about 30 minutes/game. He's had 6 2-charge games. He's playing like the best sixth man in the league right now. I feel his play is no fluke -- he's figured out his role and a lot of maturation has allowed him to produce this way. I think he's improved too much to be denied. I initially wanted Jermaine to replace him as the backup PF, since I thought Big Baby couldn't provide the rebounding that we sorely lacked. But I think Big Baby's offensive production and defensive awareness outweighs his lack of height/defensive rebounding big time. His offensive game now is deadly, and its gonna be something teams have to adjust to. I think Big Baby, despite his lack of length, is just producing too much to be left out of the rotation. He's got the backup PF spot.

This brings us to the backup C spot. Who's gonna be the primary backup at C? Shaq showed early in the season that he could vastly improve our offense by scoring double digit points in limited minutes, getting teams in the penalty, serving as a 5th shot creator with the Big 4, and finishing at a high rate. His rebounding will always be very good, and just his mere presence on the boards is huge. However, his lack of mobility will be an issue. Jermaine on the other hand, is also a solid rebounder. He doesn't have quite the presence on the boards, nor is he as good a scorer, but he has more mobility, shot blocking, and floor spacing ability.

We know for sure that its gonna be Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Garnett, Perkins, with Robinson, West, and Daniels off the bench. So the question remains, who's gonna play the 2 backup big man spots?

I'm pretty unsure. The only thing I really am sure of is that Big Baby will be playing backup PF for us, and will have starter-like contributions. For backup C, I'm leaning towards Shaq. I know him and Big Baby would make the fattest big man duo ever, but Big Baby's mobility is actually above average. He's proven himself against speed 4's like Odom and Lewis. I think in the end, Shaq will prove to be a bigger presence on the boards than Jermaine, and the Celtics are gonna make a lot of use of his offensive ability. I think in general, the bench is gonna be chalk-full of offensive firepower, and we're gonna see a Celtic team that's a lot better on offense than the previous 3 teams.

So what's your take on the backup big man positions? Who will be in the rotations? Who will play on what occasions?


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

How the minutes are distributed is largely going to depend on the opposition and health. Against teams with big power forwards like the Lakers, you want Jermaine and Shaq in together to deal with Pau and Bynum, Davis will just get shot over. However, if you're going up against Rashard Lewis, or Odom at the 4, Glen Davis' mobility will be more of an asset. Additionally, you say when we're healthy, as if it's a given everyone will be 100% at the end of the year. It's entirely possible that Perk and Shaq both need to limit their minutes or risk doing further damage to their bodies. I don't really think we know enough yet to say that "Players X, Y, and Z should be playing this number of minutes come playoff time, respectively".


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

I'll have more to say later, but Bogg pretty much summarizes my thoughts on the subject.

Also, if Delonte West becomes one of the most important players outside of the big four, we might be in for a long season. Perk, Davis, the O'Neals, and Nate Robinson should all be playing bigger roles than West.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

Jermaine O'Neal is a horrible basketball player. He's almost worthless on offense right now. His defense is still solid and he's a good shot blocker, but his lack of rebounding should be what throws him out of the rotation. If his jumper isn't falling, he can't play with Shaq. If I were the Celts, I'd split the rotation like this:

C - Perk (28)/Shaq (16)/JO (4)
PF - KG (32)/Davis (14)/JO (2)

Now, one thing to consider is, especially if you're playing the Lakers, do you consider playing Glen Davis at the 3? He's obviously very mobile for a big man and has the 18 footer to spread the floor. Should the Lakers go with a lineup of Bynum/Gasol/Odom, I think the Celts could easily counter with Shaq/Garnett/Davis. The only issue would be if Davis has the quickness to guard other 3's, but if any team tries to outsize Boston, I think they can easily counter. Against teams like this, the rotation might look a little more like:

C - Perk (28)/Shaq (16)/JO (4)
PF - Garnett (34)/Davis (8)/JO (6)
SF - Pierce (35)/Quis (6)/Davis (7)

Which gives JO and Davis a few more minutes. Either way, though, it's a very good problem to have until someone starts bitching. I can't see JO getting a new contract after his current one is finished. He's hardly good at anything besides shot blocking anymore.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

West's importance is due to the fact that Boston has zero depth at the 2/3. That and the fact that he can bury open threes. But I'll agree that they should have spent more time working on Ronnie Brewer (who would have been the ideal Tony Allen replacement). As for the bigs, given that Jermany is a walking surgical ward, Perkins is coming off major knee surgery, and that Shaq is rapidly approaching his 50th birthday, having The Baconator playing as well as he is, and Semih Erden's rapid improvement, has Boston primed for the postseason. Fat Andy will have to sit on so many guys to deplete the depth that he's bound to injure himself in the process.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Pacers Fan - Jermaine is actually overqualified for what they're asking him to do. If you expect him to be one of the top two or three guys on a contender, then yea, it'd be a disaster. But as the second or third big off the bench that just needs to rebound and defend? Sure, he'll do.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

Bogg said:


> Pacers Fan - Jermaine is actually overqualified for what they're asking him to do. If you expect him to be one of the top two or three guys on a contender, then yea, it'd be a disaster. But as the second or third big off the bench that just needs to rebound and defend? Sure, he'll do.


Everything I've seen of him this year and the past two years suggests that he's no better than a worse shot blocking Joel Anthony with less explosiveness and an inconsistent jumper.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Pacers Fan said:


> Everything I've seen of him this year and the past two years suggests that he's no better than a worse shot blocking Joel Anthony with less explosiveness and an inconsistent jumper.


He's actually been a more than adequate shot blocker/rebounder off the bench, with the added benefit of being stronger than Anthony and a much better positional defender. Again, he's not being asked to do much in Boston's system, he's the third string center come playoff time, so even if he's not very good anymore, he's still much better than what anyone else has at his position.


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## TheTruth34 (Jul 22, 2006)

Perkins started on this team and won a championship. He deserves his job back when his health allows it. Shaq and Jermaine off the bench will be huge. A fresh SHAQ checking in is always lethal. He'll back you down and dunk on you. :kitty2:


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

He'll get it back eventually, but Boston is going to baby him the entire way. They have one goal, reach the playoffs healthy. As long as they do that they're capable of winning the title.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

> The biggest story of the bench has been Big Baby. He's averaging 13 points on 57% shooting, and 5 rebounds in about 30 minutes/game.


Yeah 5 rebounds in 30 minutes isn't good.


> He's had 6 2-charge games. He's playing like the best sixth man in the league right now. I feel his play is no fluke -- he's figured out his role and a lot of maturation has allowed him to produce this way. I think he's improved too much to be denied.


It's not like he'd have been denied anyway, considering how much Rivers (and the vast majority of Boston fans) just ****ing drool when he starts getting energetic, banging his chest and making funny faces on the court.

He's only useful on offense for hitting mid-rangers. I'd be happy to move him while his stock is (hopefully) high and get something back we really need. Davis will never be a star, and won't give us much in the way of help once our impending downfall occurs.


> I initially wanted Jermaine to replace him as the backup PF, since I thought Big Baby couldn't provide the rebounding that we sorely lacked.


5 rebounds in 30 minutes ain't providing a whole lot.


> But I think Big Baby's offensive production and defensive awareness outweighs his lack of height/defensive rebounding big time.


Possibly in an overall sense but for this team? No.


> His offensive game now is deadly, and its gonna be something teams have to adjust to. I think Big Baby, despite his lack of length, is just producing too much to be left out of the rotation. He's got the backup PF spot.


Would much rather ship him somewhere, hopefully for a backup 2/3 of fairly equal value (who can defend).


> This brings us to the backup C spot. Who's gonna be the primary backup at C? Shaq showed early in the season that he could vastly improve our offense by scoring double digit points in limited minutes, getting teams in the penalty, serving as a 5th shot creator with the Big 4, and finishing at a high rate. His rebounding will always be very good, and just his mere presence on the boards is huge. However, his lack of mobility will be an issue. Jermaine on the other hand, is also a solid rebounder. He doesn't have quite the presence on the boards, nor is he as good a scorer, but he has more mobility, shot blocking, and floor spacing ability.


For what this team needs, it absolutely should be Jermaine and Shaq at the backup big spots. Shaq can give us some points as well, and Jermaine can compensate a bit for Shaq's defensive... shortcomings.


> We know for sure that its gonna be Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Garnett, Perkins, with Robinson, West, and Daniels off the bench. So the question remains, who's gonna play the 2 backup big man spots?


At playoff time, in a perfect world, Robinson (insanely useless if his shot isn't falling) and Daniels (trade upgrade would be nice) would be bumped. West can play good defense and regulary hit outside shots, so he's more than welcome.

Ignoring the health side of the equation, my ideal rotation would be:
Rondo/West
Allen/[guy, traded to us for Davis]/West
Pierce/[guy]/Daniels
KG/JO'N
Perk/Shaq/JO'N


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

I wonder if Charlotte would take him in some kind of deal for Stephen Jackson. S-Jax on this team would be excellent and Brown tends to like guys like Davis.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Floods said:


> I wonder if Charlotte would take him in some kind of deal for Stephen Jackson. S-Jax on this team would be excellent and Brown tends to like guys like Davis.


The trade would have to be Nate and Davis packaged for Jackson, and I doubt the front office would sign off on that because Jackson is slated to make eight figures in 2012-2013, completely blowing up their plan to have a ton of cap space the preceding summer. Additionally, I have trouble believing that Charlotte would be interested in a deal like that because they could presumably get more elsewhere should they decide to blow everything up and move Jackson, Wallace, and Diaw. 

At any rate, you're undervaluing what Davis brings to this team. Perkins, Shaq, and Jermaine are an excellent three-man rotation at center(assuming Perk comes back healthy), but it's also an extremely fragile trio and I'm fully expecting for one or more of them to be in and out of the rotation in the playoffs. Davis has proven for two years in a row that he can play at a serviceable level on the biggest stages, and most importantly, he can be counted on to stay healthy. As much as I enjoy rooting for Semih Erden to put it together(seriously, Semih time is one of my favorite parts of a Celtics game) I have absolutely zero interest in seeing him check into a close Finals game.


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## tianxiang (Dec 23, 2010)

Possibly in an overall sense


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## UNHFan (May 14, 2005)

Could it be good bye Jermaine O'neal? This week he talked about this being his last year.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

I want to see if he ever rounds into mid-season form, or if this is it for him, before judging if he'll be back next year. I still thing he's got enough left in the tank to be a competent third-stringer, but it's possible that Semih surpasses him by the start of next year and gets the third-string minutes, in which case I could see Jermaine walking away. It's also possible that his knee is just completely shot and he's forced into retirement.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Bogg said:


> it's possible that Semih surpasses him by the start of next year and gets the third-string minutes


Unless Cousins gets into a brawl with Evans, in which case I'm all for shipping Semih & Avery Bradley to Sacramento for him. :bsmile:


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Is the duo of Shaq and Big Baby the heaviest frontcourt tandem ever? I don't remember any C/PF combo where both guys are over 300 pounds. Certainly not heavier than the 2 of them combined which is like 750 pounds?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

The Baconator is down to a svelte 285 this year. It's the reason he's been able to draw so many charges (he's that extra step quicker now).


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Is he lighter than his rookie weight? Because I watched him this year and he looks heavier than I remembered.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

His rookie year he was around 330. He's no heavier than last year, though. Boston essentially assured this by tying his contract to weight, if he gets over 300 he loses money.


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## UNHFan (May 14, 2005)

Time to earn your money Jermaine!


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Well, five games back into Perk's early return he's being brought off the bench, although whether that's just to work him back into game shape or permanent has yet to be seen. Jermaine's shut it down for several weeks to work on strengthening his legs in hopes that his knee will be good to go come playoff time, which seems unlikely. Honestly, so long as we have Perk and Shaq at reasonably full strength and Semih around as an emergency big, anything that Jermaine can contribute is just a bonus.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

Shaq and KG and Perk/Davis seem to be excellent combinations up front, so it wouldn't surprise me to see Shaq keep the starting nod now.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

I really hope they keep Shaq as the starter. It's of more benefit to the Big 4 and Shaq, and it helps us get off to the good starts we've had all season.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=6092315

So Jermaine went ahead and had his knee 'scoped yesterday in order to clean out some loose particles and alleviate his ongoing soreness. Target return date is sometime in March, but with Perk playing well since coming back it's not really a concern, provided Shaq is also available throughout the playoffs. 


In unrelated news, I wonder if Ainge is looking at acquiring a backup swingman, given Marquis' propensity to get injured and his status as the ONLY serviceable small forward on the bench. I wake up every day hoping that a Nash trade is in the works, because it increases the likelihood of an additional Grant Hill trade or a Vince Carter buyout, either of which I wouldn't mind coming off the bench.

EDIT: I also wouldn't mind trading for McGrady or being the beneficiary of a Rip Hamilton buyout, the latter of which would require Rip forgoing a large amount of money owed him to make it worth Detroit's while.


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