# Raef LaFrenz



## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

I think that if he returns to last year form and can play 20-25 minutes a game he will help the team. He may not be worth 10 million but he will be a player that will help the team. If Jefferson and Perkins turn out to be studs and Blount remains at level at which he finished the season then he won't be an albatross.

In 4 years when Jefferson needs to be resigned, LaFrenz will be an expiring contract. In the meantime he will give the team a solid big man. I think he is an upgrade over Tony Battie and even Obie played Raef before his beloved Battie last year. 

He also plays well with Pierce so he gives the team a veteran presence while the younger players develop. I would rather have the ability to sign an all-star player as a free agent next year but who could we have been guarenteed to get? It is possible that Walker would have walked and the team would have signed nobody. That would have meant postponing rebuilding for 2 years. I would rather put up with Raef's contract - which honestly has not hurt the team yet and won't really until next year - to get Jiri, Allen, Atkins and West.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SamIam</b>!
> I think that if he returns to last year form and can play 20-25 minutes a game he will help the team. He may not be worth 10 million but he will be a player that will help the team. If Jefferson and Perkins turn out to be studs and Blount remains at level at which he finished the season then he won't be an albatross.
> 
> In 4 years when Jefferson needs to be resigned, LaFrenz will be an expiring contract. In the meantime he will give the team a solid big man. I think he is an upgrade over Tony Battie and even Obie played Raef before his beloved Battie last year.
> ...


 What are you talking about?!? We could have possibly signed a lot of VERY good free agents had our hands not been tied. Also, you NEVER are GUARANTEED to get someone but I'm sure we could have gotten someone decent for a lot less money.

Also, I'm not sure what you are talking about with the next year...Jiri, Allen, Atkins, West thing?!? Allen & West are going to be rookies this year and they were drafted FIRST ROUND, that means we have them locked for 4 years..they have GUARANTEED contracts. As for Jiri, this is only his 3rd season coming up so we still have the option for him for year 4 next season. As for Atkins, I'm not sure but I think his contract goes through next season as well....so I don't know what you meant by that.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

The Celtics traded Walker (14.5 mil/yr ) and Delk (2-3 mil/yr.) for LaFrenz, Jiri, Chris Mills and #1 pick. They then traded Mike James and Mills for Chucky Atkins and #1 pick. This netted them Raef, Jiri, Allen and West and freed up enough money for MLE this year.

My point is that salary wise they have more money to spend this year because of trade for LaFrenz. His contract doesn't really count against them (compared to if they had not made trade) until 2005 when Walker would have come off the books.

If they kept Walker they would not have Chucky, Raef, Jiri, West, and Allen this year and they would be over the cap and luxury tax and therefore unlikely to get ANY free agents this year.

So the question is, would you rather have the roster that got swept by the Nets 2 years ago in 2nd round and the chance to let Walker leave as free agent to sign another free agent or would you rather have Raef, West, Allen, Jiri and Chucky?


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## banner17 (Jun 28, 2003)

Again, name one good Free Agent that Boston has signed over the past 20 years. I'll give you Bill Walton (he was a solid contributor off the bench for 1 year thankfully). Who else? elderly former stars like Dominique Wilkins and Xavier McDaniel?

I don't know what it is, but unlike all other sports, for some reason the no one wants to play for the most storied franchise in basketball.

Trades and the draft seem to be the only angle we can work and it is unfortunate that we have made some horrible decisions in this regard over the past 10 years that have kept us from being a contender.

I'm hoping that this draft is different and I am certainly quietly optomistic about our 3 rooks.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

In today's NBA, money talks. If you give the best offer, you get your player. If you give the same offer, in Boston, you don't get your player. Evidence is Mark Blount.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SamIam</b>!
> The Celtics traded Walker (14.5 mil/yr ) and Delk (2-3 mil/yr.) for LaFrenz, Jiri, Chris Mills and #1 pick. They then traded Mike James and Mills for Chucky Atkins and #1 pick. This netted them Raef, Jiri, Allen and West and freed up enough money for MLE this year.
> 
> My point is that salary wise they have more money to spend this year because of trade for LaFrenz. His contract doesn't really count against them (compared to if they had not made trade) until 2005 when Walker would have come off the books.
> ...


How do you free up money for the MLE? You can be 1 dollar over the cap, or 100 million dollars and you still can use the MLE.

1) We wouldn't be needing Chucky that much if we had a vet PG (Best?), but the Danny doesn't need one because Banks will show the world he can play.
2) Jiri could have been brought here, we had something to give them that they might have liked.
3) West and Allen could have been gotten at a very small price. If Portland can land a mid-round pick for cash, why couldn't we land two late-1st round picks for cash.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

If you have an owner who insists that you don't go over the luxury tax then you can only spend MLE if total payroll = luxury tax level - MLE.

Since the owners in Boston and Ainge have made it clear they do not want to go into luxury tax range you clear up money for MLE by trading a 14.5 million player for a 9 million a year player or you trade for an expiring contract like Chris Mills.

Anyway, according to Ainge the Walker trade made using the MLE this year a possibility. I don't have time to do the math and am willing to take them at their word.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> 
> 
> How do you free up money for the MLE? You can be 1 dollar over the cap, or 100 million dollars and you still can use the MLE.
> ...


:yes: :yes: :yes: 
Yup....and also I DON'T BUY the we can't get free agents to come to Boston deal...I think #1 we've never had the money to offer and #2...we havn't had the guy to convince the players....if Utah can get guys like Boozer and Okur to sign on the dotted line the Boston Celtics with their 16 banners can too.....to say we can't is a COP OUT!


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

That's right! If we can't get second round draft picks to come over as free agents there must be something wrong! If only Boozer played for Boston we'd already have #17. Now that he doesn't have Lebron holding him back.... watch out!


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SamIam</b>!
> If you have an owner who insists that you don't go over the luxury tax then you can only spend MLE if total payroll = luxury tax level - MLE.
> 
> Since the owners in Boston and Ainge have made it clear they do not want to go into luxury tax range you clear up money for MLE by trading a 14.5 million player for a 9 million a year player or you trade for an expiring contract like Chris Mills.
> ...


The MLE could have been used without going over the tax this year.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

Do you mean if Walker and Delk were still here or do you mean now? Clearly, the Baker contract situation has changed as well. At the time of the trade there was little the team could do. Perhaps Ainge could have held on to Walker, allowed his griping to tear up the team (it couldn't have been worse than last year anyway, could it?) and then possibly traded him mid season for something more.

Dallas wasn't able to trade him mid-season so that plan may have failed. The team would not have been better than Detroit, New Jersey, Indiana or Miami but maybe we could have got 5th seed and 1st round elimination in 6 games instead. So with our #1 pick this year being around 23, Eric Williams a free agent we couldn't resign, Battie with sore knees, Pierce, Walker, Banks, Delk, Perkins, James, Jones and McCarty we would be looking at what exactly?

I guess Antoine would walk for nothing at end of this year and who would we be looking to sign in his place? Is there a free agent at end of this year that is going to bring more to the team than Raef, Atkins, West, Allen, and Jiri (and as fate had it ... the future of the NBA... big AL Jefferson!) combined??? Maybe we could have convinced Walker to resign for MLE at that time?


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## Flava D (Sep 27, 2003)

All I can say is that I am one of Walker's biggest fans, and I think the situation in Boston is turning out about as well as one could have hoped (barring toine agreeing to the MLE which would never have happened) The fact that FAs don't come to town is not a cop out - it is the truth. The last major free agent from outside the organization that we brought in was Dana Barros (6 years ago not the last time around) and he came because of his Boston ties. Boston is not an easy sell to pro basketball players because of the climate and the supposed racism (I'm not going to comment on that one way or the other). If you offered me, a lifelong Boston resident 2 mil to work here, or 1.75 to work in say Miami or Sacramento, I'd chose the warm climate. I don't see any major FA signings in our near future, not because of a lack of financial flexability, but because players don't want to come here at least initially. We do have a pretty good track record of keeping guys around, so I think once you play here, you probably like it enough to stay. So building through the draft and trades is the only reasonable option at this point, and with this years draft, the return of Raef, the signing of Blount (though I'm not a big fan of his) and the development of some of our younger guys, and a potential trade or two (I can almost guarantee there will be one for a top 50 player in the league) the next years are looking bright!


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SamIam</b>!
> Do you mean if Walker and Delk were still here or do you mean now? Clearly, the Baker contract situation has changed as well. At the time of the trade there was little the team could do. Perhaps Ainge could have held on to Walker, allowed his griping to tear up the team (it couldn't have been worse than last year anyway, could it?) and then possibly traded him mid season for something more.
> 
> Dallas wasn't able to trade him mid-season so that plan may have failed. The team would not have been better than Detroit, New Jersey, Indiana or Miami but maybe we could have got 5th seed and 1st round elimination in 6 games instead. So with our #1 pick this year being around 23, Eric Williams a free agent we couldn't resign, Battie with sore knees, Pierce, Walker, Banks, Delk, Perkins, James, Jones and McCarty we would be looking at what exactly?
> ...


I'd would have taken my chances with Walker, Davis and Pierce. Danny didn't have much to work with, but he could have done some things.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Flava D</b>!
> All I can say is that I am one of Walker's biggest fans, and I think the situation in Boston is turning out about as well as one could have hoped (barring toine agreeing to the MLE which would never have happened) The fact that FAs don't come to town is not a cop out - it is the truth. The last major free agent from outside the organization that we brought in was Dana Barros (6 years ago not the last time around) and he came because of his Boston ties. Boston is not an easy sell to pro basketball players because of the climate and the supposed racism (I'm not going to comment on that one way or the other). If you offered me, a lifelong Boston resident 2 mil to work here, or 1.75 to work in say Miami or Sacramento, I'd chose the warm climate. I don't see any major FA signings in our near future, not because of a lack of financial flexability, but because players don't want to come here at least initially. We do have a pretty good track record of keeping guys around, so I think once you play here, you probably like it enough to stay. So building through the draft and trades is the only reasonable option at this point, and with this years draft, the return of Raef, the signing of Blount (though I'm not a big fan of his) and the development of some of our younger guys, and a potential trade or two (I can almost guarantee there will be one for a top 50 player in the league) the next years are looking bright!


Give me a break guys, Salt Lake City is a helhole. Denver isn't much better. The weather sucks as badly as Boston and the only African Americans in the state of Utah play for the Jazz. Minnesota & Detroit seem to be able to sign free agents, suck weather & high taxes aside. Philly is a pit of Hades and they seem to be able to manage free agent signings. Boston's problem is pretty simple, prior to Ainge the last even remotely competent general manager was Jan Volk, and he wasn't exactly great. But he did know how to manage the salary cap, something his successors have been pretty bad at. The city of Boston isn't to blame for the incompetence of the Celtics front office.


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ehmunro</b>!
> 
> 
> Give me a break guys, Salt Lake City is a helhole. Denver isn't much better. The weather sucks as badly as Boston and the only African Americans in the state of Utah play for the Jazz. Minnesota & Detroit seem to be able to sign free agents, suck weather & high taxes aside. Philly is a pit of Hades and they seem to be able to manage free agent signings. Boston's problem is pretty simple, prior to Ainge the last even remotely competent general manager was Jan Volk, and he wasn't exactly great. But he did know how to manage the salary cap, something his successors have been pretty bad at. The city of Boston isn't to blame for the incompetence of the Celtics front office.


BRAVO!!!

GREAT NBA PLAYERS WILL PLAY IN BOSTON IF THE MONEY AND MANAGEMENT IS RIGHT!!!

THE POOR MANAGEMENT HAS MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO GET QUALITY FREE AGENTS!


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## KJay (Sep 22, 2002)

AMEN to that. The only thing I am going to add and this is kinda a WELL DA commnent. But you can have the best organization (managment wise) you might not always get the players. SOmetimes players have different motives when picking teams


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## Flava D (Sep 27, 2003)

> Minnesota & Detroit seem to be able to sign free agents, suck weather & high taxes aside. Philly is a pit of Hades and they seem to be able to manage free agent signings.


Hmm, wait one minute, who have these teams signed of significance as free agents who are on their roster..... Minnesota got Olowokandi, Troy Hudson is probably leaving, Hassell left, Rasho left last year, Cassell was a trade, Spree was a trade, Szerbiak and KG were drafted. Who else do they have of importance? Wait Mark Madsen signed as a FA wow! 

Next....Detroit traded for Rip, Ben Wallace, Rasheed, drafted Prince, Darko and Okur (who subsequently left) and signed Chauncy when his stock was low. They also traded for Corliss. They did recently sign another player with fairly low stock in McDyess and Elden Campbell was a good signing. Of those 3 teams, Detroit has been the best for attracting FAs, but its by no means significant.

Philly, oh Philly, AI, Green, Korver, Dalembert were drafted, hey I remember them signing Matt Geiger to a big deal, that was a coup huh? Kenny Thomas, DC, Aaron Mckie were all traded to the team....Where are the big FA signings? Brian Skinner? He's a nice player but not a major market guy or anything.

So now that I have systematically refuted claims that these teams attract major free agents, I would love to see an intelligent response. Teams in less desirable markets are built through trades and the draft, not free agency. Of course huge paydays can attract guys, like Boozer and Okur to Utah, but it is more of an exception than the norm


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## bballin (Jun 3, 2003)

thats a well reasoned post. (which just happens to agree with what I think)


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Flava D</b>!
> 
> 
> Hmm, wait one minute, who have these teams signed of significance as free agents who are on their roster..... Minnesota got Olowokandi, Troy Hudson is probably leaving, Hassell left, Rasho left last year, Cassell was a trade, Spree was a trade, Szerbiak and KG were drafted. Who else do they have of importance? Wait Mark Madsen signed as a FA wow!
> ...


You are completely WRONG! First of all, there are not that many "big name" free agents in the league these days and when there are they usually stay with the team they are already with, like Kobe. But Boston can be just as competitive as anyone with a competant GM and money to throw around (which we NEVER have). Do the Boston Red Sox have trouble getting big name free agents, um lets see, that answer would be a RESOUNDING NO! And I would think the weather, racism, region etc....is the same in Fenway as it is in the Fleet. Do the New England Patriots have trouble with free agents, ahhhh, no!.....do the Bruins, well they wouldn't if the owners wern't to cheap to sign players. Anyway, it's a cop out....yeah Dana Barros 6 years ago but guess what, we havn't had money in all those years either, WE NEVER DO and we also have had some of the worst GM's ever. 
The only teams that DON'T have lousy weather reside in California, Texas, Florida, Pheonix and you could possibly throw in Atlanta, Charlotte, and New Orleans....but they DO have winters there too. That leaves the cold weather climate teams of Seattle, Portland, Minnesotta, Milwaukee, Toronto, Philadelphia, Indiana, Detroit, Cleveland, Boston, New York, New Jersey, Denver, Utah, Chicago, DC, and Tennessee (yes it snows in DC & Tenn and they don't handle it as well and get almost as much since the 90's). That is over half the NBA teams in cold weather climates. COP OUT!


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

I doubt a Raef healthy is not great player so a raef injuried is well nothing

he's overpaid he has injuries problems


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Flava D</b>!
> 
> Hmm, wait one minute, who have these teams signed of significance as free agents who are on their roster..... Minnesota got Olowokandi, Troy Hudson is probably leaving, Hassell left, Rasho left last year, Cassell was a trade, Spree was a trade, Szerbiak and KG were drafted.


Rasho left because Minnesota didn't want him. They were looking for a bargain basement center and got him. Much to their chagrin. As far as I am aware Hudson signed a long term deal with the 'Wolves, did he change his mind and sign elsewhere? Garnett certainly chose to stay, even declining free agency to sign an extension. If Minnesota was so repulsive why didn't he flee for San Antonio?



> Next....Detroit traded for Rip, Ben Wallace, Rasheed, drafted Prince, Darko and Okur (who subsequently left) and signed Chauncy when his stock was low. They also traded for Corliss. They did recently sign another player with fairly low stock in McDyess and Elden Campbell was a good signing. Of those 3 teams, Detroit has been the best for attracting FAs, but its by no means significant.


Wrong. Completely. Chauncey's stock was not "at a low". His stock was rising as a result of his play in Minnesota. Hence the six year max MLE deal. Okur was allowed to leave because the Pistons preferred Rasheed to OK. And hey, 'Sheed decided to stay, even though he only played a third of a season in Detroit. Why didn't Wallace flee for the warm weather of Orlando or Phoenix or Miami? Heck, he could be playing beside Shaq in no tax Florida rather than in high tax Michigan.



> Philly, oh Philly, AI, Green, Korver, Dalembert were drafted, hey I remember them signing Matt Geiger to a big deal, that was a coup huh? Kenny Thomas, DC, Aaron Mckie were all traded to the team....Where are the big FA signings? Brian Skinner? He's a nice player but not a major market guy or anything.


You may want to look at some of those free bust signings that Philly has made. Sure, they didn't turn out, but hey, guys like McCulloch signed. Like McIlvaine did in Seattle, where the sun shines about 8 days a year. Oh yeah, people line up for that Seattle weather. 



> So now that I have systematically refuted claims that these teams attract major free agents, I would love to see an intelligent response. Teams in less desirable markets are built through trades and the draft, not free agency. Of course huge paydays can attract guys, like Boozer and Okur to Utah, but it is more of an exception than the norm


errrr...Not only have you NOT "systematically refuted" the claims, you ended your post by restating my point. That money talks and horseschlitz walks. That _isn't_ the exception in the NBA (or sports for that matter). It's the norm. Hell, Denver gets winter storms in May, didn't seem to stop K-Mart or Andre Miller from signing. If Boston's GMs actually thought about the cap some they'd have better luck. But for fifteen years now Boston GM's have been squandering every inch of daylight the very moment they have it, rather than looking at their five year salary charts and the four year FA charts to figure out which years it's most advantageous to have ten million + in cap room. If warm weather is all that matters to athletes, why do free agents line up to play for the Patriots, where they're guaranteed to play outdoors in suck weather, and not in Miami? It's the winning. You need cap room, and you need to be a contender (and lots of the former if you can't deliver on the latter). It's been a dozen years since Boston really fulfilled either condition.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

He's probably never going to be worth the money he's getting, but he can be a good player. He will be helpful. He's a double digit scorer who can block and alter shots and pull down some boards. He's a nice player, but he's been put in situations that are going to make people ignore that completely. He's not going to be worth the number three pick and he's not going to be worth the contract he got in Dallas. He has been and will be a solid contributor if his knee doesn't fail him again.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

Great last post Elnumero, loved it


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Over at Hoops Boston </shameless plug> we know that the real problem is the lack of a staff capologist. Why they haven't hired Larry **** is beyond me.


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## Flava D (Sep 27, 2003)

Let me first preface this post by understanding that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink...



> Do the Boston Red Sox have trouble getting big name free agents, um lets see, that answer would be a RESOUNDING NO! And I would think the weather, racism, region etc....is the same in Fenway as it is in the Fleet.


First off, last I checked this is basketballboards.net, but baseball is a completely different story than basketball. Where do the Red Sox train in the coldest months? Fenway? No, Florida. What months are the baseball season in? The warmest. I am no expert in baseball, so I can't comment on who exactly the sox have brought over, but the truth is baseball is a more racially diverse game. I realize Manny, Ortiz and Pokey (to a lesser extent) are all free agents of a minority who have come to Boston to play baseball, but we've also brought over guys like Bellhorn, Millar, Mueller, and Johnny Damon (If they were in trades my bad, I assume all these guys were FAs) But anyways, the point is baseball is a more racially diverse game, so the race issue isn't as big. Baseball is a summertime game primarily, so weather isn't as big of an issue either. Boston is a great summertime city to live in. Winter, not so much. 





> Rasho left because Minnesota didn't want him. They were looking for a bargain basement center and got him. Much to their chagrin. As far as I am aware Hudson signed a long term deal with the 'Wolves, did he change his mind and sign elsewhere? Garnett certainly chose to stay, even declining free agency to sign an extension. If Minnesota was so repulsive why didn't he flee for San Antonio?


Rasho and Kandi's contracts are very comparable to each other, until the kicker years of Rasho's deal (where he'll earn about 2 mil more than Kandi does at the end of his deal) Keep in mind Kandi's deal is up sooner, and had he played (or if he plays) up to his potential, he can command at least 8 mil per season. Hudson is still on the market, so thats up in the air. On KG, if you read my earlier post, you'd realize I said that free agents are more likely to stay with their teams, because of loyalty, money, and other intangeable reasons. We're talking about cities players will go to more willingly, and Boston seems to be on the end of the list, as can be seen by recent history.

Furthermore, (I'm not going to bother quoting) Chauncy's contract reflects a player with low to moderate stock. Do you really think his stock was really that high when he signed with Detroit? If you do, then imagine he was an unrestricted free agent right now. Do you think Dallas would only offer him the MLE? How about Utah or Atlanta? Do you think Detroit could keep the Colorado Buffalo alum for less than 9 mil? I certainly don't. 

My overall argument is Boston does not have a competitive advantage over many teams in the league when it comes to signing free agents. It is not because the team is bad, and I really don't think it is exclusively because of bad management. If management was so bad, Pierce would have forced his way out by now. There is a stigma about the city however which keeps players from wanting to initially (emphasis on initially) come here. Once they are here, they tend to stay unless they are forced out involuntarily (IE Rodney Rodgers, Toine, Billups, KA, etc.) Because of this stigma, the only way to build a winner is through, you guessed it, free agency and trades. I would really like to see what people think of these ideas (and witerhino and ehmunro since you seem to channel one mindset, I can already anticipate an interesting response from the two of you) But others, please give your reasons why Boston can't attract free agents. Thanks for reading!


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Flava D</b>!
> Let me first preface this post by understanding that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink...
> 
> 
> ...


If you're coming to play baseball in Boston you're anticipating playing baseball in October and (hopefully) November. When ALL the games are played at night and in temperatures sometimes barely above freezing. I'll take it that you never played as a kid, and hence don't know how badly it hurts to hit in that sort of weather (I doubt that anything can hurt like a hard slider at night in 40º weather).



> Rasho and Kandi's contracts are very comparable to each other, until the kicker years of Rasho's deal (where he'll earn about 2 mil more than Kandi does at the end of his deal) Keep in mind Kandi's deal is up sooner, and had he played (or if he plays) up to his potential, he can command at least 8 mil per season.


Olowokandi's deal was three years, Rasho's six, I can understand why they didn't want to pay for six years of Rasho. But, they began courting Olowokandi from the getgo (because they had decided that Nesterovic didn't fit their team). And, hey, they landed him.



> Furthermore, (I'm not going to bother quoting) Chauncy's contract reflects a player with low to moderate stock. Do you really think his stock was really that high when he signed with Detroit? If you do, then imagine he was an unrestricted free agent right now. Do you think Dallas would only offer him the MLE? How about Utah or Atlanta? Do you think Detroit could keep the Colorado Buffalo alum for less than 9 mil? I certainly don't.


There were other bidders for Billups' services. What there weren't that offseason were teams with a lot of cap space. And those that had it were focused on the two or three franchise players available, Detroit targeted Billups and offered him a max MLE deal (six years), something that was unheard of at the time. That it has now become standard practise doesn't change the fact that it was a novel concept when Detroit did it. Most of the other teams offered two year deals.



> My overall argument is Boston does not have a competitive advantage over many teams in the league when it comes to signing free agents. It is not because the team is bad, and I really don't think it is exclusively because of bad management. If management was so bad, Pierce would have forced his way out by now. There is a stigma about the city however which keeps players from wanting to initially (emphasis on initially) come here. Once they are here, they tend to stay unless they are forced out involuntarily (IE Rodney Rodgers, Toine, Billups, KA, etc.) Because of this stigma, the only way to build a winner is through, you guessed it, free agency and trades. I would really like to see what people think of these ideas (and witerhino and ehmunro since you seem to channel one mindset, I can already anticipate an interesting response from the two of you) But others, please give your reasons why Boston can't attract free agents. Thanks for reading!


Well, competitive advantage in the free agent market is spelled M-O-N-E-Y and no, Boston has not had the ability to offer the sort of money to secure A level talent since the advent of the salary cap. Now, if you have a title contender you can secure the the services of aging stars looking for a title shot (see last years Lakers, for example), but young players in their prime are looking for a payday. The Celtics management has never mastered the cap, simply witness the way they squandered their daylight last decade the moment they had it (rather than looking at contract charts to see which years cap space would be advantageous). Once they change this bad habit, they'll have a lot more luck in the free agent market.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Flava D</b>!
> First off, last I checked this is basketballboards.net, but baseball is a completely different story than basketball. Where do the Red Sox train in the coldest months? Fenway? No, Florida. What months are the baseball season in? The warmest. I am no expert in baseball, so I can't comment on who exactly the sox have brought over, but the truth is baseball is a more racially diverse game. I realize Manny, Ortiz and Pokey (to a lesser extent) are all free agents of a minority who have come to Boston to play baseball, but we've also brought over guys like Bellhorn, Millar, Mueller, and Johnny Damon (If they were in trades my bad, I assume all these guys were FAs) But anyways, the point is baseball is a more racially diverse game, so the race issue isn't as big. Baseball is a summertime game primarily, so weather isn't as big of an issue either. Boston is a great summertime city to live in. Winter, not so much.


Really the only free agents of significance that the Red Sox have signed are Manny Ramirez, Keith Foulke, and Johnny Damon. The other guys, Ortiz, Millar, Reese, Kapler, Mueller, Arroyo, etc that we have signed weren't in high demand. Millar, for example, was going to play in Japan because he couldn't find a MLB team offering money for him. The other guys on the roster, Pedro, Schilling, Lowe, Varitek, etc, were all received via trade. Even the Sox, who spend about a hundred million a year have trouble getting free agents in town.

If you want to look at the Patriots, Rosie Colvin was only FA that had other suitors that we signed. Most people thought Rodney Harrison was washed up. And the Patriots have won two Super Bowls in the last three years.

Its not just the Celtics who struggle to get FAs in town. Of course, most of our struggle is because we never have any money to go out and get good players. If a guy has a chance to get five mil a year and live in Orlando, he's going to take that before he takes five mil a year to live in Boston. Its that simple. Even Utah, which has money, had to over pay to get Memo Okur and Carlos Boozer in town. Atlanta, who also has loads of money, can't get anyone in town.

IF the Celtics had more than the MLE to spend, they could possibly attract FAs to play in the green. Until then, we're stuck.


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## Flava D (Sep 27, 2003)

congrats ehmunro, you were rational and not confrontational with that reply, though I disagree on some points, money does talk...though not always, look at utah last year, they couldn't sign anyone to a max deal, and had to overpay neon keon clark...so money + location = success? work with me here...atlanta couldnt get a top notch fa despite having a ton of cap room this year, and atlanta is a great place to live, so there's definately multiple factors working here. if boston had a ton of cap space, my guess is we still would only attract guys with boston/NE roots, like I could see Ray Allen in celts green in the forseable future


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Flava D</b>!
> congrats ehmunro, you were rational and not confrontational with that reply, though I disagree on some points, money does talk...though not always, look at utah last year, they couldn't sign anyone to a max deal, and had to overpay neon keon clark...so money + location = success? work with me here...atlanta couldnt get a top notch fa despite having a ton of cap room this year, and atlanta is a great place to live, so there's definately multiple factors working here. if boston had a ton of cap space, my guess is we still would only attract guys with boston/NE roots, like I could see Ray Allen in celts green in the forseable future


Actually, Utah did attract quality free agents last offseason, they signed Jason Terry, Cory Maggette, and someone else (I can't recall at this moment) to offer sheets. However, the guys that accepted their offers were matched (as Utah signed RFAs). Because they drew an 0-fer last year, everyone forgets. Neither did they sign Keon, he was their reward for facilitating the Brad Miller/Scott Pollard trade. But, Utah is also an example of cap planning, they arranged to have space last year because it made sense given the available talent. That's where Boston has traditionally failed, arranging cap space. At the present moment they're capped out till 2008. They need to change that. Also, Atlanta is a pit of Hades, ask a resident sometime. And Atlanta suffers from the same general perception that Utah had last offseason (i.e. they're viewed as a losing organisation). The thing is, it takes more than MLE money to attract A talent in its prime, and that's the failing the franchise has had. Sadly it really is that simple.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> 
> Really the only free agents of significance that the Red Sox have signed are Manny Ramirez, Keith Foulke, and Johnny Damon. The other guys, Ortiz, Millar, Reese, Kapler, Mueller, Arroyo, etc that we have signed weren't in high demand. Millar, for example, was going to play in Japan because he couldn't find a MLB team offering money for him. The other guys on the roster, Pedro, Schilling, Lowe, Varitek, etc, were all received via trade. Even the Sox, who spend about a hundred million a year have trouble getting free agents in town.


Obviously I go back further than you because you've just picked the last five years as a sample (when there were economic considerations guiding the team). But the Sox have been active in the free agent market from the beginning, going back to Mike Torrez & Bill Campbell in the late seventies. They've signed a pile of free agents over the years, it's never been a problem, the only constraints have been the revenues.



> If you want to look at the Patriots, Rosie Colvin was only FA that had other suitors that we signed. Most people thought Rodney Harrison was washed up. And the Patriots have won two Super Bowls in the last three years.


Because Pioli & Belichick study the NFL cap, they're good at managing it. Harrison had other suitors. With NE he had a title shot, that's why he chose the Pats. P&B generally scour the June cuts for bargains. That's their modus operandi.



> Its not just the Celtics who struggle to get FAs in town. Of course, most of our struggle is because we never have any money to go out and get good players. If a guy has a chance to get five mil a year and live in Orlando, he's going to take that before he takes five mil a year to live in Boston. Its that simple. Even Utah, which has money, had to over pay to get Memo Okur and Carlos Boozer in town. Atlanta, who also has loads of money, can't get anyone in town.
> 
> IF the Celtics had more than the MLE to spend, they could possibly attract FAs to play in the green. Until then, we're stuck.


That's been my point from the start. Generally speaking, for the last dozen years, coming to Boston meant taking less than market value, and for what? To finish tenth in the conference and get an early start on the links? Money talks, just about everything else walks. When the day comes that Boston's management realises that they need to start looking at salary charts and free agent availability charts they'll get better. Until then I fear they're largely spinning their wheels.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

Great post again Ehmunro : ) Also I'd like to point out that Curt Schilling had a "no trade" clause and we easily convinced him to waive it to come to Boston. Alex Rodriguez, same thing, but of course the league vetoed that one. Also Ehmunro is VERY correct in saying October & November and even April are VERY hard months to play baseball in new england, it hurts like HELL! It's also hard for the pitchers, but the Red Sox spend the money and they are always in title contention so guys WANT to come play for them. 
The bottom line is that when the Celtics get some money (hopefully someday in my lifetime:sigh: ) and start doing better than scratching into the playoffs then they will do just fine with free agents. You have to be able to pay a guy to get him to play for you.....Mark Blount stayed because of the payday, lets be realistic here.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Flava D</b>!
> congrats ehmunro, you were rational and not confrontational with that reply, though I disagree on some points...


Where does this rumour that I am confrontational come from? I am the most rational of debaters. :grinning:


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## theBirdman (Jun 20, 2003)

ehmunro, I dont know where you heard Minny didnt want Rasho back. They wanted him back badly and even offered him a better contract than SAS! I remember him talking about it in slovenian media, but Rasho decided he wanted out, because the team chemistry in Minny was really bad. 
And when Greg popovich comes to your house in Slovenia to try to convience you to play for the defending champion...well it s not really a difficult decision to make...


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theBirdman</b>!
> 
> And when Greg popovich comes to your house in Slovenia to try to convience you to play for the defending champion...well it s not really a difficult decision to make...


(Shh, but this is the part where Doc comes in...)


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Yeah man, when Doc walks down the street in Florida, you have to return to the defending 8th seed. Pop ain't got nuthin' on Doc man.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> Yeah man, when Doc walks down the street in Florida, you have to return to the defending 8th seed. Pop ain't got nuthin' on Doc man.


If the guy can get Hill and McGrady why can't he get other stars?


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> 
> 
> If the guy can get Hill and McGrady why can't he get other stars?


Dolla Dolla Bill Y'all


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> 
> Dolla Dolla Bill Y'all


See that's you're problem agoo, you see thing for next season, but I, I am already looking forward to 2018, when James Adam is a Free Agent and will leave the San Jose Bombers to come to Boston and help Doc win another championship.


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