# Rebuilding the Knicks



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

What would you do to rebuild the Knicks? Their payroll is already the highest in the league. I see this team being mediocre for a while.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

You bomb it. Aside from Houston, who isn't going anywhere, the rest of those players can be delt.

Just don't expect to get anything back from it. I think that's where teams mess up, they want to get rid of their bad contracts and get something back at the same time. That probably isn't going to work here. So you trade Anfernee Hardaway, Tim Thomas, Shandon Anderson, Kurt Thomas, Jerome Williams for *nothing*. Just cap space. Even if it's the worst players in the league you get back, if they have an expiring or near expiring contract or they are filler (lots of smaller contracts which are tradable), you take them. Bomb it for a couple of years, that's what it's going to take.

Then for Houston, who's contract is so awful no one would possibly touch it, you just have to try and convince him for a buyout.

Select a big man in the draft.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

It makes sense to blow up everything, except most NY fans don't even want to go through a rebuilding phase. My friend talked about trading Penny Hardaway and Tim Thomas, since they have expiring contracts in 2006, for another player. I don't see that being a long term solution, but that seem to be the path this franchise has chosen.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

start with a new general manager


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>f22egl</b>!
> It makes sense to blow up everything, except most NY fans don't even want to go through a rebuilding phase. My friend talked about trading Penny Hardaway and Tim Thomas, since they have expiring contracts in 2006, for another player. I don't see that being a long term solution, but that seem to be the path this franchise has chosen.


Everyone says this, and I don't live in New York so I wouldn't know - but wouldn't Knicks fans (if they really are the most knowledgable) be able to accept a few years of re-building? I mean this is New York we're talking about here, with just a bit of cap space they could acquire just about anyone they wanted. And I'm sure in the long run New Yorkers would accept it. So I agree with Pan, just blow the m'f'er up.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

I'm not a knicks fan, and I agree blow it up. But I'd say a large portion of knicks fans are not knowledgeble. 

Knicks fans I came across last year have not been knowledge(in person, not on the board). They claimed that the Knicks would beat New Jersey in the postseason. For instance, one knicks fan told before the season that he would take Jamal Crawford any day of the weak over Gilbert Arenas. Go figure.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

knicks fans wouldn't mind blowing up the knicks. it's msg ownership that would mind. as long as they remain competitive, they'll draw, and make money. however, right now, they're not very competitive.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>f22egl</b>!
> I'm not a knicks fan, and I agree blow it up. But I'd say a large portion of knicks fans are not knowledgeble.
> 
> Knicks fans I came across last year have not been knowledge(in person, not on the board). They claimed that the Knicks would beat New Jersey in the postseason. For instance, one knicks fan told before the season that he would take Jamal Crawford any day of the weak over Gilbert Arenas. Go figure.


There are two types of Knicks fans that have emerged since the Pat Riley years. Those who drink the Kool-Aid and those who don't. Some people think that Isiah is Siddhartha reincarnated and others feel that he's making a bad situation even worse. I fall into the latter category. My beef isn't that they keep adding payroll. The Knicks will never be under the cap, at least not in my lifetime. I just don't agree with some of their moves. It seems like they put little to no effort in scouting talent, both internationally and in the college ranks. It was nice to see them grab Ariza in round 2 because he breaks the trend of short, fat, athletically challenged big men that the Knicks always seem to love. Isiah is supposedly doing some scouting over in Europe right now so maybe he's going to change that trend. However, the biggest adjustment that Isiah needs to make is changing his perception of the Knicks. New York is a "win now" type of town but the Knicks don't have the talent to win right now. He seems to enjoy adding talent for the sake of adding talent. Nevermind the fact that Tim Thomas isn't a catch and shoot type of a player. Nevermind the fact that Crawford does not complement Stephon Marbury. His moves look good on paper but they rarely work on the court. I think he's got the right idea about how to rebuild this franchise. They need to add youth and athleticism to the team. However, he needs to do it in a way that doesn't take away from his current player's talents. He needs to take a look at what the Suns did a couple of years ago. I'd argue that they had more talent when Marbury was on that team. However, he did not fit in well with the other players and they've since replaced him with an inferior talent that is getting more production out of the other players. I'm not saying the Knicks need to dump Marbury. They need to come to the realization that maybe he's not playing the right position. They didn't need to add Crawford to the team in the offseason because they already have a lethal scorer in Marbury. The trick now is getting him to accept a move to shooting guard and bringing in a PG that can make him even more effective. They also need to upgrade their frontcourt. I'd say that they're about 2-3 years away from having a really good team if Zeke makes the right moves.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

They are a true big man away from being good again.

Do they have their pick in 2006? Throw the season and grab Oden.

Also. Play Sweetney more.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> So you trade Anfernee Hardaway, Tim Thomas, Shandon Anderson, Kurt Thomas, Jerome Williams for nothing. Just cap space. Even if it's the worst players in the league you get back, if they have an expiring or near expiring contract or they are filler (lots of smaller contracts which are tradable), you take them


These are the worst contracts in the league, with the exception of Kurt Thomas. No one is touching Hardaway, Thomas or Jerome Williams unless you take a longer contract in return, Your plan is unrealistic.

Even if they were somehow successful at this strategy, your theory is flawed in that the remaining contracts are still well over the cap. So they are still handcuffed either way.

The only possible solution is to let all the contracts die out, and not try to do the short-term fixes that Isiah has been doing (i.e trading away expiring deals for supposedly better players). 

There is no easy way out of this mess other then good drafting / luck at the lottery.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

For as much **** as you give him, Isiah has actually done a pretty decent job. Under Layden the Knicks had NO hope. For just as long a time. Now the Knicks can at least dillude themselves with guys like Ariza, Marbury, and Crawford and win some games here and there. Isiah's biggest mistake was trading KVH for Tim Thomas, because KVH was a perfect fit, for once. It was one deal too many.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Kill Charles Dolan and bring in Rex Banner to break up Cablevision. I doubt either of those are possible though.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> 
> These are the worst contracts in the league, with the exception of Kurt Thomas. No one is touching Hardaway, Thomas or Jerome Williams unless you take a longer contract in return, Your plan is unrealistic.
> ...


Hardaway, Williams, and Tim Thomas' contracts came in trades, the Knicks didn't sign to those deals. So those contracts already _have_ been moved, so they certainly can be moved again. You just have to be willing to do one of 3 things:

*1.* Trade away a good player and force one (or more) of the bad contracts to be included.
*2.* Trade for complete trash, provided their contracts are for fewer years than the traded away player.
*3.* Trade for a package of lesser players (who either have expiring contracts or, if not, can more easily be traded to another team for expiring contracts).


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

i think they need a real center , nazr is a good player but on a defensively challenged team he is a poor fit on the defensive end, he is more of a 4/5 on a good team he should play 25 min. off of the bench.

if i were them i would do this before the deadline

trade nazr and a #1 for kwame brown.

trade vin baker and moochie /w 3 mil. for d.diop and eric snow.

or wait til after the season and

draft johan petro and sign and trade tim thomas, nazr a 2nd rounder, 3 mil. for sam dalembert, corliss marc jax and aaron mckie

why they do it.

nazr is perfect for the wizards needs, he hits the offensive boards has alittle post game andis happy to play a role, and he is only 27 , kwame is not seemingly in their future , they probably need to part ways for both their sakes plus the get what would be a lottery pick if the season ended today.

the cavs dont want diop , he'll never start ahead of big z and he doesn't play for them much at all, they would gladly give him away for a 2nd rounder at this point, eric snow has been a disappointment and he has been clashing with silas.

moochie is a decent backup with a contact that basically can be terminated after next season , and vin baker was actually coveted by the cavs when boozer left before they got gooden, his contract runs out after next year as well. the cavs save 20 mil in total because of snow's contract length.


the 76ers are way over the cap (by about 27 mil. at the moment), the deal proposed saves them money and gets them close to the cap by shaving off 18.4 mil for 2006-07 plus whatever dalembert would be making, with todd mac coming off because of medical retirement they would actually be under the cap while not really taking a hit at all talentwise before hand add to that mckie's deal would have another year after that at 7 mil.


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## LuckyAC (Aug 12, 2004)

The only reason those contracts could be moved was because the Knicks didn't care, since it was already hopeless for them. There is no team in the league like that now. Isiah Thomas hasn't given them hope either, all he has done is ensure mediocrity for even longer by adding even more to their payroll.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

People who say fire IT just reassure me that Americans have the shortest attention spans in the world. The Knicks werea mediocre team with mediocre players and absolutely no youth. The payroll was shot to heck before he came, he has had only one draft and it was pretty good. He has made arguably one bad deal (KVH) and the team has a lot more buzz than it did before he took over.

After Layden the Knicks were looking at being horrible for years, now they will be mediocre. They were never going to have cap room and depending on being lucky enough to get the top pick in a draft with a franchise player is just stupid.

The knicks are waiting for a player to want to get to them bad enough to force a trade. Don't be shocked to see the Knicks get Webber for expiring contracts and picks this summer.

Penny/Kurt Thomas/1st rounder for Webber.

followed with something like

Tim Thomas/Nazr/Moochie for Derek Anderson/Rueben patterson/Darius Miles/Joel Pryzbilla

PG Marbury, MLE
SG Crawford, houston, Anderson
SF Miles, Ariza, Patterson, S. Anderson
PF Webber, Sweetney, Jerome Williams
C Pryzbilla, Baker

This team *looks* the part of Eastern Conference contender and Webber would easily be one of the best big men in the East.


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## LuckyAC (Aug 12, 2004)

Actually, it is Isiah who is proof of Americans' short attention span. Instead of blowing it up and trying to rebuild, he has mortgaged the future for instant gratification, and very little of it at that.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LuckyAC</b>!
> Actually, it is Isiah who is proof of Americans' short attention span. Instead of blowing it up and trying to rebuild, he has mortgaged the future for instant gratification, and very little of it at that.


Exactly how was he supposed to 'blow it up'? Who was he going to give those horrible contracts to....


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>f22egl</b>!
> It makes sense to blow up everything, except most NY fans don't even want to go through a rebuilding phase. My friend talked about trading Penny Hardaway and Tim Thomas, since they have expiring contracts in 2006, for another player. I don't see that being a long term solution, but that seem to be the path this franchise has chosen.


im a knick fan, and thats whats gonna happen. personally, i wouldnt mind blowing up the team and losing for a few years...but its not gonna happen. we know that the owner of the team wont allow the knicks to rebuild. we will trade those expiring deals next season.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LuckyAC</b>!
> Actually, it is Isiah who is proof of Americans' short attention span. Instead of blowing it up and trying to rebuild, he has mortgaged the future for instant gratification, and very little of it at that.


You don't rebuild in New York City, if you knew anything about what you were talking about, you'd know that.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

NYC wasn't built in a day...


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The Knicks were going to be capped out until Houston's contract came off the books anyway, so at least Isiah brought in some talent. The Knicks won't have any maneuverability till two years from now (the same amount of time if Layden was in charge).


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> The Knicks were going to be capped out until Houston's contract came off the books anyway, so at least Isiah brought in some talent


this is the point everyone always misses..with the knicks being so far over the cap,there is NOTHING Zeke could have done,except hire a really good coach.H20,s contract is the nail in the coffin and until that comes off,all any GM for the Knicks can do is shuffle the chairs on the Titanic.Adding Penny,TT made no difference as their contracts come up before H20.It doesnt matter if you are a "Penny" over the cap or 100 million,assuming MSG has the revenue stream to bankroll a losing franchise.

The only moves that Zeke made that have longer term implications is extending KT's contract,acquiring Junk Yards longer term contract and Jamal crawford signing which is long term as well.

The most important move Zeke can make is hire a great coach who either can utilise marbury correcly or can convince Zeke to trade him.And that guy is probably Larry Brown...

While we definetly need a 5,we also need a point guard with a point guard mentailty.The Baron Davis's,Marbury's and Iversons will not lead you to the promise land playing the point,UNLESS you have a Larry Brown..

As for NYC fans refusing to rebuild,that is B.S...Its utterly ridiculous.We put up with much worse by supporting crappy losing teams under layden and Zeke.i dont see much of a difference between a non rebuilding 18-29 team and a rebuilding effort


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> You don't rebuild in New York City, if you knew anything about what you were talking about, you'd know that.


I don't know about that. I don't know whether you follow the NFL, but the Giants showed that they are rebuilding when they decided to play Eli Manning instead of Kurt Warner, and most New York fans don't seem to mind.

I think if the Knicks decided to rebuild, New York fans would accept that. It's just that their owner doesn't want to rebuild, he's more interested in selling tickets and jerseys than he is in winning either now or in the future. The Knicks won't be good until he sells the team.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Truth..*

I'm not sure that I agree with you. First, I was never a supporter of the Marbury trade..as you know. I will give the guy his due, though. He is an immensely skilled offensive player. If...(and a big IF) there is not a character problem with him (i.e. team chemistry), then I think a team could definately win a title with him. i just think it is crucial who you make up the team with. I think AI has never really had a talented supporting staff....same with Davis. I think Marbury actually might be better as a 2 guard who is asked to score but can also dish a bit. Probably a guy with a pass first attitude (like Kidd) would really make a rockin backcourt with Marbury. Stephon is actually a lot like Francis...a little small but very strong and can get to the hole at will...with a questionable J.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Isiah sets table for rebuilding 




> "What I've got to do this summer - and I don't know if I can do it - but you've still got to try to find a way to work within this system to try to acquire some younger players," Thomas said. "New York has always been in a mode of robbing Peter to pay Paul. But at some time you've got to stop and you've got to absorb some pain."





> "I'm definitely disappointed in our record," said Thomas. "However, I'm not disappointed in the effort."


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> People who say fire IT just reassure me that Americans have the shortest attention spans in the world. The Knicks werea mediocre team with mediocre players and absolutely no youth. The payroll was shot to heck before he came, he has had only one draft and it was pretty good. He has made arguably one bad deal (KVH) and the team has a lot more buzz than it did before he took over.
> 
> After Layden the Knicks were looking at being horrible for years, now they will be mediocre. They were never going to have cap room and depending on being lucky enough to get the top pick in a draft with a franchise player is just stupid.
> ...


Great, more cap hell.


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## Keith Closs (May 13, 2003)

my biggets problem with isiah is that his a bs artist..

last year he mentioned nothing of a 4-5 year rebuilding plan..then idiotically got on the court when he knicks clinched a playoff spot and told the knick fasn welcome to the playoffs liek were the clippers who are pumped just makign it and dont know what its like..

the 4 to 5 year plan wasnt said till he realized thsi year the team sucks and he wanted to save face..


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

LOTTERY TICKET 



> Australian 7-foot center Andrew Bogut of Utah. Small forwards Rudy Gay of UConn and Marvin Williams of North Carolina. Point guard Chris Paul of Wake Forest.
> 
> Get used to the names, Knick fans. They are the cream of the lottery — and the Knicks are well on their way to official admission.


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

try hiring flip saunders


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