# Hoiball is now the 2nd worst offense in the NBA



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats

Only the hapless Sixers are worse at offensive efficiency than Hoiberg's Bulls.

To say this is a shocking situation 20 games into the season is an understatement. 

Especially given that this same roster was the 11th most efficient offense in the NBA last season.

Nowhere to go but up from here! 

Wasn't Hoiball supposed to improve the offense from the stubborn, behind-the-times Thibs though? He had this group at 11th last season. Strange times.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Do you have access to a list of last year's final efficiency ratings? Thanks.

The offense is playing like crap, but there are 2 sides to the court and you can't bring this up without also mentioning the #3 rated defense, which is far superior to the middling defense Thibodeau put out last year.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

its not strange at all .

you change the style of play and the pace of play without any changes to the personnel and this is what you get .

this team was built on defense and rebounding and now they are trying to change the philosophy with parts ill suited for it .

it may be time to credit Thibs for his offense as it seems to have been pretty effective (although in my opinion an eyesore, and a slow paced one at that)

at the same time I think people come to grips with the fact that the front office isn't very good , it wasn't good before and now post Thibodeau 

their job supposedly is to put the talent on the floor capable of winning , a pace and space coach with a grind it out team is a poor combination if the desire is success.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Do you have access to a list of last year's final efficiency ratings? Thanks.
> 
> The offense is playing like crap, but there are 2 sides to the court and you can't bring this up without also mentioning the #3 rated defense, which is far superior to the middling defense Thibodeau put out last year.


http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false/year/2015

11th best defense 

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/order/true/year/2015

10th best offense 

if 11th is middling ( I would term it above average )

how do you feel about 29th? 

especially considering he was brought in for offense 

I choose to believe he can coach and that he has inspired a more motivated defense that had to a certain degree begun to tune out the previous head coach but that he has been given a team that makes it extremely difficult to execute his style of basketball on offense .

this team has youth on the perimeter but Gibson , noah, and gasol are all in their 30's and the product on the floor will get even older when Dunleavy and his much needed consistency comes back...this team is simply not built for this style of play .

and the main guys in their 20's (rose, mirotic , butler , McDermott and snell ) have been underwhelming as a unit with only butler being even an average player thus far who has been very good .

I blame the front office for this and their agenda driven style of management is putting the bulls at a disadvantage moving forward .


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Da Grinch said:


> its not strange at all .
> 
> you change the style of play and the pace of play without any changes to the personnel and this is what you get .


This I can agree with for sure. If I'm going to "blame" anyone (kinda laughable for a team that has been decent record-wise this year and beat some elite teams, but I digress), it's the front office...not for firing Thibodeau or hiring Hoiberg, but for hiring Hoiberg without trying to trying to shuffle the players to better fit his planned system. I am still holding out hope they will do this.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Da Grinch said:


> http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false/year/2015
> 
> 11th best defense
> 
> ...


11 is closer to middling territory than it is great. Alot further from the #3 this year. 

I've already said the Bulls offense has been terrible. I don't feel good about it. I've also stated some of the reasons, and agree with you on some of those reasons. 

I'm not so sure about the "same team as last year" argument. We've seen exactly zero minutes from Mike Dunleavy this year, who was a starter and key rotation player last year. Not to mention this alleged blurred vision thing from Rose (though without being able to read Rose's brain, I have no idea how to weight this in the equation). People like to downplay what Dunleavy did for us last year but whatever it was, we have missed it this year, and missed it badly when he was out injured briefly last year.




> especially considering he was brought in for offense


This rationale is way too simplistic. "Offensive guy not bringing good offense...20 games in". Reggie Miller talked about the paradigm shift/system change on TNT last night. I agree with him 100% and have been saying this. 

But I agreed with what you said before. Personnel fit is a big part of the issue. This will need to change.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

Oh dear.



Jimmy Buckets said:


> I believe in the guys in this locker room but I also believe we probably have to be coached a lot harder at times. I’m sorry, I know Fred is a laid-back guy and I really respect him for that, but when guys aren’t doing what they’re supposed to do, you have to get on guys—myself included.


Offense is only the 4th worst in the NBA last I checked. Arrow pointing up?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

K4E said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> 
> 
> Offense is only the 4th worst in the NBA last I checked. Arrow pointing up?


in truth on the court i am gonna say yes.

rose dropping 34 against the pistons is a great sign .

jimmy requesting hoiberg step it up is a great sign (they were playing a back to back on the road after a 4OT game against a team on a 3 game winning streak ...they lost that game before it began)

noah had a 21 & 10 game in gasol's absence.

portis had 20 & 11 in 22 minutes

the last couple of games despite 2 losses show a better future.

the bulls so far have not been playing as well as their record mostly because rose and noah have sucked that they are trending up says the bulls are too.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Just as an update to the thread:

In the 3 weeks since this was started, the Bulls are up to #13 in PPG and #22 in offensive efficiency (adjusted to 20th when factoring in strength of opponent). They are also down to #5 in defensive rating (which stays at 5 when adjusted for opponent).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_ratings.html

I wonder how much of this is basically what you see when Noah is not on the floor.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/order/true

Bulls still tied for 24th in offensive efficiency. Down from 11th last season. Hoiball. Basically same roster.

Defense is on the decline from earlier in the season. 7th now.

This roster is far too talented to have such a poor offense. Nice to see the Bulls are starting to distance themselves from the teams trying to tank and the truly wretched.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Good thing those stats count more than wins, right?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/order/true
> 
> Bulls still tied for 24th in offensive efficiency. Down from 11th last season. Hoiball. Basically same roster.
> 
> ...


Hollinger's rankings had them at 10th last year in offensive efficiency, not 11th. Come on, make your best case on the post-Thibs downfall!


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

King Joseus said:


> Good thing those stats count more than wins, right?


Regular season wins are great!

Its just there was so much talk about how the previous coach was holding back the explosive offensive games of Mirotic and McDermott and how Hoiball would usher the Bulls into the modern NBA.

And now the Bulls have one of the poorest offenses in the NBA. Its good to see it emerging from the cellar though. 

We know the roster has the talent since it was the *10TH* best offense in the league last year. 


---

In all seriousness though, you would like to see the gap between Off EFF and Def EFF be wider. 

Having the two poorest TS% guys on team missing time in Rose and Noah helps the offensive numbers. It would be great if those two could just revert to how they played under Thibs somehow.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

A wider gap would be nice, yes. I don't think it's all sunshine and roses, but I still enjoy great wins...even if they probably won't amount to much come playoff time.


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## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

At least you aren't Raptor fans....... That Jimmy Butler 2nd half show was something else..


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Oh no, panic because our defensive rating is 0.3 points behind the #3 spot. They're slipping! LOL.

Nevermind the 9-2 record against Top 10 teams. 2nd best only to the Golden State Warriors and nobody else is even very close.

Compare that to teams many Bulls fans envy like the Clippers (0-7) or Thunder (2-6). 

Sagarin's formula has the Bulls rated 6th in the entire NBA as of today.

No worries, regular season wins don't matter. Let's cherry pick isolated stats that make Fred Hoiberg look bad. 

Strange the team plays better when Derrick Rose & Joakim Noah sit out. It's almost as if that had something to do with the team not shooting the ball efficiently....


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Oh no, panic because our defensive rating is 0.3 points behind the #3 spot. They're slipping! LOL.
> 
> Nevermind the 9-2 record against Top 10 teams. 2nd best only to the Golden State Warriors and nobody else is even very close.
> 
> ...



Yeah, this. Noah goes out, Rose has basically only the real decent stretch of the season (and then goes out to be replaced by backup guards who sadly have been outperforming him), and the offense picks up. Strange. But Hoiberg was probably making them shoot poorly all along.

Bulls are also up to #5 in ESPN's power rankings.

The Bulls still have some structural problems, but it's still good to see a nice stretch of wins.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I think the team started "playing better" before Rose went down with his most recent injury and I actually think Rose himself started to look a little better (at least based on my ever scientific 'eye-test'). We've obviously continued to win in his absence, but I don't think there's causation there.

It is way too early to tell with this team (which is frustrating since it is January) - I think Hoiberg is still figuring out what works best and I think the players are still learning and adjusting to their roles, not just in the offense, but on the team generally. I think we can all agree at this point that the introduction of "Hoiball" hasn't fundamentally changed or revolutionized the way we play offense. I think that only comes as a shock to those who underrate the previous coaching staff on that front... I don't think Tom Thibodeau's offensive sets were ever a problem (his ability to work/co-exist with the personnel aside). The question is whether or not things can change before the snow starts to melt, at least to the point where we are an effective and dangerous offense by the time the playoffs start. I don't think we're all of the sudden going to become the '80's Celtics or the Steve Nash Suns on offense, but we have enough talent to be a top 5-10 O in the association this year, and that could make for a fun playoff run.

I'm going to try to avoid getting too high or too low... a week and a half ago (or whenever that Brooklyn loss was) I was creeping towards the Bulls fan ledge like everyone else... now things seem to be pointed in the right direction, but who the hell knows.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I still maintain that in spite of the Bulls' offensive rating last year under Thibodeau (which may have been his best offense in the 5 years he was here), he was not a great offensive coach. From all I gathered in his 5 years as coach, it seems he just didn't spend much practice time on offensive sets. He kept offensive sets very basic and slow-paced, and in turn it was predictable for opponents, especially in a playoff series when opponents learn everything you're doing very precisely. How many times did the Bulls just run a basic pick and roll, or pick and pop last year? Like 20-something times per game and I'm probably not exaggerating. That's a 2-man game, the most basic play in basketball other than an isolation. Another large % of Thibs' plays were throw the ball into Pau or Taj on the low-post and let them go to work grind-it-out style. This is why the Bulls were bottom 10 in the league in pace, and we might've led the league in shot clock violations too. You can win games this way but it's not pretty and I rarely see this style advance deep into the playoffs. 

Thibodeau tried to implement a read-and-react offense a few seasons ago, and he abandoned it when guys weren't doing it correctly and the team was suffering. Hoiberg is mostly trying to do the same thing, except he is trying not to give up on it so quickly. Some of this is probably personnel, but you do need to practice offense and I don't think Thibodeau did this enough. Just my opinion.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

yodurk said:


> I still maintain that in spite of the Bulls' offensive rating last year under Thibodeau (which may have been his best offense in the 5 years he was here), he was not a great offensive coach.



The Bulls offensive efficiency under Thibs was as follows:

Last year: 10th
13-14: 28th
12-13: 23rd
11-12: 5th (and #2 in defense - you forget how amazing the D-Rose MVP year was.)
10-12: 12th

A pretty mixed bag, altogether. You can see Derrick Rose playing in basketball games, at least until this year, makes a dramatic difference.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> You can see Derrick Rose playing in basketball games, at least until this year, makes a dramatic difference.



Adding Gasol helped a lot last year. And Rose was decent. And Butler taking a big step up.

Nice to see the team starting to turn it around. If they keep shooting 55% and a perfect 20-20 from the line they will be moving out of the cellar quickly.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> A pretty mixed bag, altogether.



The roster was the mixed bag.

Have not heard much from Nate Robinson and DJ Augistin anymore.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> The roster was the mixed bag.
> 
> Have not heard much from Nate Robinson and DJ Augistin anymore.



DJ has fallen off a cliff. Nate tore his ACL, though, so I'm not sure that's terribly relevant.

Thibs had a very nice record at getting scoring production out of midget point guards.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> The Bulls offensive efficiency under Thibs was as follows:
> 
> Last year: 10th
> 13-14: 28th
> ...


Oh right, easy to forget the lockout year...due to not only the lockout, but Rose's ACL injury as well. But you are right, that 11-12 team was the best Thibs team.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Saw somebody post this over at RealGM:

Before Xmas: 27th Off Rtg, 4th Def Rtg

After Xmas: 4th Off Rtg, 16th Def Rtg

K4E is correct the D hasn't been as good since the offensive surge recently. Quality of opponent has been high so that could have something to do with it. But more likely, I think the team is just trying hard to fix the offense and perhaps overcompensating. The good news is the offense has been elite ever since the loss to the Nets, and the D hasn't completely fallen off, just not playing as elite as they were. 

If they keep this chemistry going, I think they are 1 solid trade (big man for versatile G/F) from being a legit challenger to Cleveland in the playoffs; assuming health and all that. It's been quite a turnaround. Though I still think they need to go find someone in a trade, and to go "all in" it can't be Pau Gasol who gets traded. TBH, I'm having a hard time figuring out who exactly we can/should target in a trade.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Saw somebody post this over at RealGM:
> 
> Before Xmas: 27th Off Rtg, 4th Def Rtg
> 
> ...



I also think the slip in D is the roster shakeup/injury situation. Noah on the bench, Niko starting at the 3, and Rose out for a few games (which, while he's not been playing elite defense by any means, still means more Brooks on the court).


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Adding Gasol helped a lot last year. And Rose was decent. And Butler taking a big step up.
> 
> Nice to see the team starting to turn it around. If they keep shooting 55% and a perfect 20-20 from the line they will be moving out of the cellar quickly.



BTW, the passive aggressiveness of the last sentence here is kind of amazing.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats

Bulls are in free fall. 

Offense is the 5th worst in the NBA. "Championship roster" under Hoiball.

Thibs is gone and Jen Swanson is still around. Tons of injuries.

Bulls have a negative point differential now. Awful.

Pace is up! Hoiball! 

Paxson still collecting paychecks.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

K4E said:


> http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats
> 
> Bulls are in free fall.
> 
> ...



You contradict yourself in your own post. Mocking a team for allegedly being a championship roster when half the rotation is not even playing right now. Of course this is America where we must attribute blame to everything, so tell me who is to blame for Mirotic having his appendix removed, or Butler for landing awkward on his knee. Why don't I start blaming Thibodeau for Dunleavy's back problems since it is obviously somebody's fault.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

yodurk said:


> You contradict yourself in your own post. Mocking a team for allegedly being a championship roster when half the rotation is not even playing right now.



The old coach managed to win regular season games while dealing with injuries.

Now its, waaahhhhh, injuries, its too hard to win.

'Next man up, we have enough' has turned into 'wahhh injuries' and 'this is a bad roster.'





> Of course this is America where we must attribute blame to everything, so tell me who is to blame for Mirotic having his appendix removed, or Butler for landing awkward on his knee. Why don't I start blaming Thibodeau for Dunleavy's back problems since it is obviously somebody's fault.


If a player gets hurt its the head coach's fault for playing them too many minutes. At least that was the story last season.

There is no narrative being spoon fed to the beat writers this season so you don't really see blame stories from them.

There are always excuses for mr. "no excuses."

12 seasons
0 championships
0 finals appearances
1 eastern conference finals appearance.

current state of franchise: complete freaking mess.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

The Bulls have been towards the bottom of the league in off eff all season. This isn't just a current problem. Hoiball.

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats

Now, as a whole, the Bulls have a negative point differential on the year while flirting right around +1 or less for most of the season.

Last season under Thibs this team was +3.2.

Taj Gibson is starting to call out the team. For him, its frustrating to see the Thibs winning ways slowly slipping away while the usual Paxson malaise sets in again.

Sad to see. Rough season. What a mess.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

On the bright side, when I created this thread, the Bulls were the 2nd worst offense in the NBA. 

Now they are the 5th worst offense in the NBA.

Trending up!


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> 'Next man up, we have enough' has turned into 'wahhh injuries' and 'this is a bad roster.'



Wait, isn't "this is a bad roster" the main point of all your posts?


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

*Has a coaching change helped the Bulls?*

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20160210/sports/160219960/

Cowley weighed in yesterday.

Now Mike North is throwing in his two cents. 



> The Chicago Bulls felt Tom Thibodeau was to blame for not moving the team further in the playoffs. Why isn't new coach Fred Hoiberg to blame for their problems now?


The Rebel Inside!


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: Has a coaching change helped the Bulls?*

The purpose is not to improve or help, is overachievement, deepen into playoffs or won too many games. GM does not allow coach to overachieve.

Nuggets fired coach of the year George Karl

Rockets fired Kevin McHale.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Has a coaching change helped the Bulls?*

Simple minds, simple thinking. (these media heads that is)

Hoiberg hasn't helped much, but I really don't think he's actively hurt them either. 

For the 248th time, there are several other problems that need to be addressed. That's on Gar Forman.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

*Re: Has a coaching change helped the Bulls?*



yodurk said:


> Simple minds, simple thinking. (these media heads that is)
> 
> Hoiberg hasn't helped much, but I really don't think he's actively hurt them either.


Its also often not very complex.

Hoiberg certainly isn't helping. Early on, he's a replacement level coach, at best.

The coaching change has not helped the Bulls in any way, shape or form.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

*Things are just worse under Hoiball*

From a team perspective, the team has a negative differential between OFF EFF and DEF EFF. Right now its at -1.

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats

Last year with basically the same roster under Thibs, the team was a +3.2.

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/year/2015


Even more troubling is to see how much poorer some players are playing under Hoiball this season than under Thibs last season.


Most troubling


Derrick Rose
PER Last Year: 15.9
PER This Year: 12.4

Former MVP went from being a decent NBA player last season to a bad one this year. 

Nikola Mirotic
PER Last Year: 17.9
PER This Year: 14.5

Promising rookie last season with a close to 18 PER. This year he's below average. What a dropoff.


Taj Gibson
PER Last Year: 16.1
PER This Year: 14.6

The always solid Taj under Thibs has been a below average NBA player under Hoiball.

Tony Snell
PER Last Year: 10.2
PER This Year: 6.8

This promising D and 3 guy has turned into a really bad NBA player under Hoiberg. Another younger asset moving in the wrong direction.


Aaron Brooks
PER Last Year: 14.4
PER This Year: 12.2

Our instant offense guy is now a bad NBA player under Hoiball. No DJ / Nate signing this year. No Thibs.

A bit worse

Joakim Noah
PER Last Year: 15.3
PER This Year: 14.2

Worse under Hoiberg. Also hurt under Hoiberg.




About the same

Jimmy Butler
PER Last Year: 21.3
PER This Year: 21.9

Playing great and an all-star level talent. Still leading the league in MPG though under Hoiberg / Swanson / GarPax and now he has hurt his knee.

Pau Gasol
PER Last Year: 22.7
PER This Year: 22.3

Not a stout defender by any stretch, but still delivering the goods at an all-star level at an advanced age.


E'Twaun Moore
PER Last Year: 10.3
PER This Year: 10.9

Decent bench guard. Doing about the same.


Big Winner

Doug McDermott

PER Last Year: 6.1
PER This Year: 9.0

Big uptick in production for Dougie. He's been freed from the shackles of Thibs. Problem is that 9.0 is absolutely awful, especially for a guy that is supposed to be an offense first guy. Flawed judgement by many.


Better, but who cares

Kirk Hinrich

PER Last Year: 6.8
PER This Year: 7.5

Hoiball agrees with him. Ha. He's going to turn into dust, wraps, gear and glasses at some point in a game this season.


Cameron Baristow

PER Last Year: 2.1
PER This Year: 3.5

Freed from Thibs.



Oy vey, what a mess.

So many key players doing worse under Hoiberg. Noone meaningful doing better.

And last season was supposed to be the year where Thibs "lost the team."

If last season was "lost the team" what do you call this?


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Things are just worse under Hoiball*

Anyone mind if I merge this with one of the other threads? They all seem to be on the same topic.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Things are just worse under Hoiball*

Just merge this into one of the other threads.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I am going to defend Fred for now. He does not have the players that will buy into his style. Not yet anyway.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> I am going to defend Fred for now. He does not have the players that will buy into his style. Not yet anyway.


then maybe the front office should have drafted , traded and signed such players over the past year....but because they were trying to prove a point about thibs(which actually proved the exact opposite ) 

they threw away a year.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

And now they're talking about potentially trading Butler. I have never seen any team double down on a first year coach like this. The incompetence of this front office is laughable, and here they are still trying to sell the fanbase that Hoiberg is the next Steve Kerr lol. 

To be fair, I said several months ago that this offense will never work with Butler on this team and frankly I think Hoiberg can't even coach in this league. So now we are looking at a situation where the front office is willing to shape this team in a particular fashion, with 0 evidence that it's even the right direction to go in. 

Cutting your losses with Hoiberg is ten times smarter than trading away a legit NBA talent (even though he's incredibly overrated). I'm all for trading Butler for a guy like cousins, but he's not even the type of player that Hoiberg needs. 

At this point, the Bulls would be much better off cleaning house at the front office level, trading away assets for younger players and ending the Hoiberg experiment.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> And now they're talking about potentially trading Butler. I have never seen any team double down on a first year coach like this. The incompetence of this front office is laughable, and here they are still trying to sell the fanbase that Hoiberg is the next Steve Kerr lol.
> 
> To be fair, I said several months ago that this offense will never work with Butler on this team and frankly I think Hoiberg can't even coach in this league. So now we are looking at a situation where the front office is willing to shape this team in a particular fashion, with 0 evidence that it's even the right direction to go in.
> 
> ...


I have seen reports that other teams are trying to get Butler, but not that the Bulls are trying to move him, due to Fred's system or anything else. Have you seen anything to the contrary?


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

The Bulls' playoff chances just took a major nosedive in one huge possession. They slow down Jackson, get the Pistons into the half court - they probably get the stop. Detroit hadn't had ONE good shot in about four minutes in the half court. But they got lazy and.... better start winning and not stop.

GG Hoiball.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Honest assessment - tonight's game was fitting for a pair of teams hovering around the 8 seed in the East. The Pistons won because they made a few less mistakes. Might be the difference in the whole season - a couple of mistakes.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

If I just spoke too soon I'm gonna be kicking myself... not the place for a game thread, but eff it I'm bored. Geez... Butler about to hit some free throws.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Either refs gave Detroit the playoffs - or they determined that although Butler's foot was off the half-circle, it was above it? His heel was clearly not touching the line.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> I have seen reports that other teams are trying to get Butler, but not that the Bulls are trying to move him, due to Fred's system or anything else. Have you seen anything to the contrary?


Depends on who you hear it from. KC Johnson will say the Bulls have no interest in trading Butler and are merely listening to offers, while a guy like Joe Cowley will say that the Bulls are more inclined to trade him in the offseason. The truth probably lies in the middle, Bulls are probably listening to offers and are probably willing to make some in the off-season as well.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Depends on who you hear it from. KC Johnson will say the Bulls have no interest in trading Butler and are merely listening to offers, while a guy like Joe Cowley will say that the Bulls are more inclined to trade him in the offseason. The truth probably lies in the middle, Bulls are probably listening to offers and are probably willing to make some in the off-season as well.


gauging trade value is a part of the job.

a decent front office should know their players worth around the league.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Da Grinch said:


> gauging trade value is a part of the job.
> 
> a decent front office should know their players worth around the league.


You should hear the people in the comments on PistonPowered - its hilarious. They think the Bulls would trade away Butler for Reggie Jackson. Not even kidding. If Stan Van Gundy even proposed that to Chicago it'd be as an April Fools gag.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

This team is fucking unbearable to watch at this point. Why do I subject myself to this torture?


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

It's baseball season. You should have moved on already.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

Bulls are the 5th worst offense in the NBA. Hoiball.

The defense has taken a real turn for the worse as well, as the Thibs slowly leaked out of the team over the course of the year. 15th now and worse than that over the 2nd half of the season.

Awful job by GarPax and Hoiberg taking the #3 seed in the East last year and turning that same talent for the most part into a non-playoff team. 

GarPax without Thibs? So far, pretty crappy.


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