# For Regular Posters on the Blazers Board



## Gym Rat (Dec 30, 2002)

How do you feel about OT threads in this forum? 

We fought for a long time to make sure we could have OT threads in this forum because we have such a strong community. But lately, some of the OT threads have become too political in nature for some of the folks on this forum. Personally, I ignore them. They are labeled OT so I can do that. But they seem to bother other people. 

I would like to know the opinions of the REGULAR posters in this forum. Not the EBB guys that come over to complain about our OT threads... I want the people that consider this "their" community to give us their opinions on OT threads.

Would it help if we allowed OT threads about anything but politics and religion? No OT threads at all? Any OT thread should be allowed as long as it doesn't break the rules of bbb.net?

I chose not to make this a poll because I want to make sure we have the opinions of this "Blazers" community. 

So, please speak up and let us know what you think - if you aren't comfortable posting your opinions, please send me a PM!

P.S. I know Schilly did a poll on this but I really don't want to depend on a poll because anyone can vote. I want the opinions of our regulars!


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## Playmaker0017 (Feb 13, 2004)

No question in my mind that they should be allowed.

Typically, most OT threads are going to be based on politics. Those are current event type of things. If we discuss ANYTHING about current world happenings ... there will be different ways to observe the event and reactions to it. A lot of time, this difference goes along political lines.

I think if people have issues with the topics, then they should avoid the topics. It is that simple.

Personally, I think it is great. It makes me feel part of a close community and it lets me get to know people more then their opinion on "Cheeks and Stoudamire". 

I think that sometimes the topics become TOO charged, but as long as it doesn't spill over, it isn't a bad thing.

I think if all of a sudden in a Randolph Rocks topic... I respond to Talkhard by saying "You are an idiot! Only a republican jerk would think that way!" then there is a problem.... but the people posting in the OT threads seem to keep the OT/Basketball stuff seperate. 

I've seen only one backlash out of an OT thread, but it stayed in PM and OT area, and I somewhat instigated it and hopefully it was resolved. 

Taking away our ability to mesh with one another and just talk is killing a vital aspect of this community, in my opinion. I don't want to go to another place to discuss OT things with people I don't know. I feel like I know people here ... like we are a real group. 

We have personalities. We aren't just log-in names. 

Maybe I'm weird... well okay, I'm definitely weird ... but it is how I feel.

And if on a OT thread I get too strong or hurt someone, I would NEVER take offense to a message in the thread or PM-style that explains how I hurt someone and that they didn't appreciate it. I never set out to hurt anyone and I don't think any of us have the intention of hurting any other members here.


Play.


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## Playmaker0017 (Feb 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Gym Rat</b>!
> So, please speak up and let us know what you think - if you aren't comfortable posting your opinions, please send me a PM!


Please, don't feel uncomfortable. We ARE a community. Even if you disagree with me on OT threads or my personal opinions IN OT threads, I would like to know people's opinions here.

Seriously guys, no biting and snarling in this thread ... I'd really like to know why people do or do not like OT threads.

Play.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

I'm all about 'em, I'm not always interested in what the OT topic may be, but when I am I like to see what people's takes are on issues, maybe offer up my own...

I think there are a lot of intelligent and informed people on this board and it's cool to catch viewpoints and arguments both in line and contrary to my beliefs.

If they get out of hand, I say do the same thing that is done w/ an out of hand BBall thread - shut it down, warn people, etc.

The important thing is that the OT threads don't dominate the board so that those who are not interested can simply avoid them. So long as that is the case and people behave as they have been, I don't see the problem...

Cheers


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

http://basketballboards.net/forum/index.php?s=

The root directory of this site has forums for other subjects, so I am a bit puzzled why they do not go there to discuss such things. So why not just post them there? 

I usually ignore those OT threads as well, but I must admit others intrigue me and I red them, and sometimes comment on them as well. I happen to enjoy ABM and Hap's and many of the other posters fun OT threads. So I think a distinction would need to be made between OT threads that involve our forums flavor of persoanlities of posters.



If one of the reasons the OT threads are posted is an attempt to catch the Chicago forum in total post count, then it shoudl be reviwed again. I am sure it does not really matter if we ever catch them. Kind of like making the playoffs 22 years in a row... on down the line will it matter? Maybe this is contributing to the OT thread count.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

allow OT threads,this blazer board on bbb.net has its own seperate identity from the rest of bbb.net,hence allowing ot threads would be better for this blazers forum.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

I like the concept of an OT posts..but as someone who has to wade through them, it gets old to hear the normally peaceful talks turn into personal attacks, and "I have to have the last word" athons. And this happens far too often in political or religious posts than basketball posts.

Should we have a new pre-fix? 

Like "PP" for Political post? (Political Off Topic would be "POT" and we all know thats not funny anymore).

"PT" for "personal topic" 

"LT" (not to be confused with our own Laurel T) for "Local topic"

"RT" for "religious topic"

I personally dont mind OT posts, as long as they aren't political in nature. There's a time and a place for that, even more so than there's a time and a place for ABM's countless posts with the purple dinosaur dancing.

The problem with allowing political/religious off topic posts is, people are easily offended. And being a mod with that, gets old. What I might find offending, others might not. What i don't find offensive, people might. Sometimes the offensive act doesn't fall within the confines of the "guidelines" we each have to follow. 

Some people are pantently offended by people saying blasphemous things. Personally, I'm not. If you want to say god doesn't exist, or question it, so what? But there are some people who will get personally insulted, offended, and irritated by that. Furthermore, they will take it as a slap in their face, their religions face, and everything they believe in, if Ed, ABM or myself don't edit it out.


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

I'm with Trader Bob. Seems they should go in a separate forum, but I have no problem ignoring them. In my opinion, the only off topic posts that belong in a hoops forum are basketball topics not pertaining directly to the team the specific forum is set aside for. There are plenty of other places to talk about non-basketball stuff.

Dan


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

or

Peaceful Opinion of Politics

aka POOP:

or

come draft time:

Sure or Bust?

affectionately known as SOB:

and lastly, BS: as in this topic is bull****IcantBelieveIrespondedorstartedthisdamnthread

J/K Blazer fans....for those that remember me, you know I am only jesting...


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## bfan1 (Mar 5, 2003)

I like OT threads. If I don't like the topic, I ignore it.

I agree that they can get out of hand but that also happens when the subject is basketball.

Personally, I'd rather have these discussions here in "my" community, rather than in the other forums where some of the OT topics are intended to be by the BBB. I do not roam the BBB for the most part.

I'm stuck at work all day and the OT topics give me a chance to exercise the ol' brain!

So-I guess my vote is to allow them. 

Hap's idea to look at how we post them is interesting. Perhaps OT: and then a CLEAR subject matter should be required?


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Originally I fought my butt off to allow them. My stance has changed.

When I originally defended it I was defnding our right to speak about local issuse in Portland. IE other local sports and community issues pertaining to Portland. In addition part of my motive was to keep the heat off our newness to the board. I felt that as a large group that had migrated we needed our space to acclimate without having other mods going nuts over the OT posts. 

Well I think it's fair to say that we have acclimated. I myself have branched out a bit from the Blazer board. *NEWS FLASH!!* The rest of BBB.Net is really good too! 

I agree that it is a good concept to just ignore stuff, but to me the ammount of stuff to ignor is escalating to the point where I really just avoid the board as the only active threads ar not Portland or even sports related.

To me Politician Bashing or topics regarding politics and religio or even human Morals are 100% EBB material. Also I see that there are "Usual Suspects" who thrive on these types of OT topics. My recommendation to them is to check out the EBB board as there are quite a few people there who also appreciate these topics and can give an even broader perspective.

That's my stance I think the OT topics in question are a good topic, but not for a Basketball forum.


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## Gym Rat (Dec 30, 2002)

Maybe I should remind you all of why we allowed them to begin with.

We are a bunch of elitest that care about each others opinions but could care less about other fans opinions because if they aren't Blazer fans - their opinions don't matter!!!  

OK, the real reason we allowed them. We decided discussion in our community, on a variety of different topics, meant more to us because it is our community, not the entire bbb.net community. We have formed a Blazer community here and many don't venture out to other boards. We liked to have discussions in our community. That was the only reason.

It would be better for bbb.net (as a whole) to have this group venture out to other boards on bbb.net. It would help to grow those communities also. But an exception was made here and in the Bulls forum because of how tight the community is. Maybe that isn't the same here anymore?


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Gym Rat</b>!
> Maybe I should remind you all of why we allowed them to begin with.
> 
> *We are a bunch of elitest that care about each others opinions but could care less about other fans opinions because if they aren't Blazer fans - their opinions don't matter!!!  *
> ...



Was that directed at me?   :laugh:


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

I just had an epiphany..

I think part of the reason some people aren't too fond of the EBB board is...

it can come across as middle school and high-schoolish.

I like posting there, but it's really not the headquarters of mensa...


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Gym Rat you know how hard I fought to allow the OT threads. And what you are saying above is exactly what I feel it's team to branch out and preserve the Blazers forum for Basketball and of course the occasional ORegon related OT announcements or issues. 

I think of it like this. It's one thing if you have nowhere else to post this stuff, but the EBB is there for that reason exactly.

Yeah there is a lot of garbage there too, but it's existence is precisely for the issue we are talking about.


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## Gym Rat (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> I just had an epiphany..
> 
> I think part of the reason some people aren't too fond of the EBB board is...
> ...


I don't like EBB because it seems high schoolish and sexist. 

But what do you expect from a cranky old broad like me?


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Gym Rat</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't like EBB because it seems high schoolish and sexist.
> ...


Mercy, Grace and Wisdom....


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Gym Rat</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't like EBB because it seems high schoolish and sexist.
> ...


hm..if I'm not terribly fond of it for the same reason...what does that say about me?


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## gambitnut (Jan 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> hm..if I'm not terribly fond of it for the same reason...what does that say about me?


You're a cranky old broad too?:laugh:


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>gambitnut</b>!
> 
> 
> You're a cranky old broad too?:laugh:


well, you saw me in high school...I was rather broad.


HA!

thank you!


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

OT topics are good for our board imo , we have the numbers to warrant their being here and enough switched on people to keep the discussion interesting. 

I dont visit much of the other board but there are tons of weak topics in the EBB board and i agree with GR it does often come off a bit schoolish. All up the only peoples opinions that I really read are the people on our part of the board , im not anti the rest of it but I just dont feel the need to have to look elsewhere for an interesting read when we have the bases covered here - and make no mistake , people from the other boards check HERE for our topics to comment on often so we are doing something right 

If the topic isnt of interest to me , i skip it and if the EBB people have issues with us discussing non Blazer topics within our board thats their problem. I guess we are in our own little world here , but hey , thats the way we like it - we're active , opinionated , and love to talk!

Go Blazers!


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

it is of imminent importance that the "OT: You may now ask theWanker a question" thread be allowed to resurface. the legions of faithfull would lose all sense of purpose were it to disappear. 



seriously, though, they're not hard to ignore and they do lend some depth to the relationships of various posters here. 

the biggest question, IMO, is if there are at least one or two moderators who are willing to continue to commit the time and effort it takes to manage these (occassionally) more intense and volatile threads. 

if it's too much of a hassle, we either need to add a few mods who are willing to do it or eliminate OT threads entirely. 

my vote is for keeping them.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!
> 
> the biggest question, IMO, is if there are at least one or two moderators who are willing to continue to commit the time and effort it takes to manage these (occassionally) more intense and volatile threads.
> my vote is for keeping them.


please join me in welcoming TheWanker as the new "Political Threads only" mod!


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## BealzeeBob (Jan 6, 2003)

*I Vote To Keep The OT Threads Here...*

Here, I know who's opinion's I respect, even if I disagree with them. On another forum, I don't have a clue as to whether the people I'm discussing a topic with are Lanny's or Obi's, for example.

It's not a big deal to me either way, though. I stay at this forum, and probably won't venture to other forums regardless of what is decided about OT threads.

My two cents.

Go Blazers


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## gambitnut (Jan 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> well, you saw me in high school...I was rather broad.
> ...


Yes, but since we went to high school together, I find the idea of you being old really scary!


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> please join me in welcoming TheWanker as the new "Political Threads only" mod!



Eehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhxcellent. you shall now all succumb to the fascist regime of the mighty Wanker. no longer will my enemies suckle at the teat of free expression! if you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--forever.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

I reluctantly say let them stay.

I would just as soon see the political/religious type threads barred. The catch is, once you start cracking down on "OT" posts, it always seems to drift towards a zero tolerance policy.

For example? Yes, BBB.net has a forum to talk about the draft, and one for trades, but not being able to discuss those issues here would be silly. When the Lakers signed Malone and Payton, that had a big impact on the Blazers.......but it would technically be "OT".

I would rather navigate around the drek, than see legit threads chased off.

:twocents:


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

:topic:


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

Darn it, Gym Rat! You forgot to label this thread as "OT"! Now I read it and will never get that 3 minutes of my life back!



But seriously, as long as OT threads are labeled "OT", I don't have a problem with them. Sometimes I like to know what other Blazers fans think/feel about topics other than the Blazers.

PBF


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>gambitnut</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, but since we went to high school together, I find the idea of you being old really scary!


well, I were not the smartist guy in hi school


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

TheWanker would get him just the same. He had committed—would have committed, even if he had never set pen to paper—the essential crime that contained all others in itself. Thoughtcrime, they called it. Thoughtcrime was not a thing that could be concealed forever. You might dodge successfully for a while, even for years, but sooner or later they were bound to get you....

You must love theWanker. It is not enough to obey him; you must love him.


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!
> 
> ....You must love theWanker. It is not enough to obey him; you must love him.


Hey, pal....I love you enough to send you -->this link.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

My opinion:

If this were a physical space, where political discussions were heard by everyone and thus disruptive to those who dislike political discussions, I'd be all for disallowing them.

But considering anyone who doesn't want to talk politics can *easily* avoid reading or posting about politics by skipping OT threads, I really don't see the problem.

Nobody's forcing politics on anyone. Unlike loudly talking politics at a game, this doesn't affect anyone else. There's no one holding a gun to posters' heads, forcing them to click on OT threads.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!
> 
> You must love theWanker. It is not enough to obey him; you must love him.


All night long?


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## Nightfly (Sep 24, 2002)

I think we all know how I feel about OT threads.

Here's my general stance:

I don't mind a few OT threads here and there. I especially don't mind them if they are a topic that is sort of local to Portland only (for example, a while back I made a thread about local record stores).

What bothers me is when there are nearly 15 OT threads on the front page of the forum, and often times the *exact* same topics are being discussed on Everything But Basketball.

I come to the *Portland Trail Blazers* forum to talk about the *Portland Trail Blazers*. I don't come here to talk about politics and the like.

Look at the Bulls forum. How many OT threads do you see there? There may be a couple here and there, but often times they relate to all things Chicago (such as the Cubs or the Bears, etc...) They have a lot of posts, but at least 90% of all posts there are Bulls related, and I’d say 95% are basketball related.

I don't think OT threads should be all out banned from the Portland forum, but I sometimes wish that the number of OT threads wasn't so high.

I think that most posters would actually like EBB if they gave it a chance. It seems pretty sad to me that so many posters here are almost afraid to post outside of the Blazers forum.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HearToTemptYou</b>!
> I think that most posters would actually like EBB if they gave it a chance. It seems pretty sad to me that so many posters here are almost afraid to post outside of the Blazers forum.


Good comment.

I know I'm not a regular here, so my opinion probably isn't wanted, but I think you can understand why it seems elitist or xenophobic to not venture out of here.

Not 100% of the threads in the EBB are the 17 year old poster dominated, just go look. It makes zero sense to say ignore the OT threads here if you don't like them, but not the threads you don't like there.

I can understand sticking here if your only read intrest is to talk Blazers, but when I see "OT: Gay marriages," "OT: New Lord of the Rings" or "OT: Boston trades with Miami" and whatnot it clearly seems like you guys are only intrested in mingling amongst yourselves.

It's like going to a 300 person club, with 5 of your friends. Your 5 friends are playing pool, you want to dance. Do you dance at the pool tables because your friends are there or do you go to the dance floor and mingle with other people?

This site would be a lot weaker if everyone only stuck to their respective team forums and posted OT threads there when they wanted to discuss something else.


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## Nightfly (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jamel Irief</b>!
> 
> 
> Good comment.
> ...


I completely agree with everything you've said. In fact, you made a point I was about to come back and make when you said: 



> It makes zero sense to say ignore the OT threads here if you don't like them, but not the threads you don't like there.


Not every post in EBB is about "the hottest female ever!" Threads about such things are usually labeled quite clearly, if such things do offend you.

You guys really miss out on some great posts by people like TomBoerwinkle#1, Petey, rawse, and even our very own Minstrel.

You guys wonder why no Portland regulars are in the BBB.net Hall of Fame? It's because no one here really ventures outside of the Portland forum.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jamel Irief</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thats mainly because it was an issue in Portland.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HearToTemptYou</b>!
> 
> You guys wonder why no Portland regulars are in the BBB.net Hall of Fame? It's because no one here really ventures outside of the Portland forum.


or it be because none of us really give a crap about the "hall of fame"?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> or it be because none of us really give a crap about the "hall of fame"?


Nah.

There are a couple people in the hall of fame who don't give a crap about it.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Hmmm.

Is this really THAT much of a problem? Currently, I see zero off topic threads on the front page of the Blazers forum, aside from threads complaining about off topic threads.

Survival of the fittest. Threads nobody wants to talk about go away. Threads people care about are discussed for a while, then forgotten. I think that's the way it should be.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HearToTemptYou</b>!
> It seems pretty sad to me that so many posters here are almost afraid to post outside of the Blazers forum.


For me, at least, it's got nothing to do with fear. My routine is to come to the Blazer page and then look for threads that interest me. Sometimes I read the OT threads though I only rarely comment. I'm fine enough with their presence here. If I were to *start* one about, say...custom made Pooh Sticks, I'd almost certainly post it here. Why? Because while the greater world at large may have all sorts of valuable and worthy opinions about Pooh Sticks, those opinions don't mean much to me. If, however, people I already "know" want to comment on such sticks, it would mean more. For example, if PBF chimes in, I might get some great new insight regarding the the prediction games. Or if it's Ed I might get a great new understanding of how his mind works to better debate him regarding things basketball related. And who *wouldn't* want to know Wanker's thoughts on custom Pooh Sticks?

More seriously, as much as a reach as it may seem, I consider most of the posters here friends on some level; even the posters I often disagree with and/or am frustated by. I still *care* more about what they think than posters I don't know.

So sure, I could get to know new folks. Know what? I don't feel the need. What's here is great. Also, there's the time factor. I don't feel I'm getting to spend the time I'd like to at the Blazer page. Getting sucked into another page (as I'm sure I would) would only leave me a keener sense of frustration. 

And finally, I can't say enough that I almost never get involved with OT threads *and* I'm quite happy to have them here. In fact, I'd be pretty bummed if we banned them.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PorterIn2004</b>!
> 
> 
> For me, at least, it's got nothing to do with fear. My routine is to come to the Blazer page and then look for threads that interest me. Sometimes I read the OT threads though I only rarely comment. I'm fine enough with their presence here. If I were to *start* one about, say...custom made Pooh Sticks, I'd almost certainly post it here. Why? Because while the greater world at large may have all sorts of valuable and worthy opinions about Pooh Sticks, those opinions don't mean much to me. If, however, people I already "know" want to comment on such sticks, it would mean more. For example, if PBF chimes in, I might get some great new insight regarding the the prediction games. Or if it's Ed I might get a great new understanding of how his mind works to better debate him regarding things basketball related. And who *wouldn't* want to know Wanker's thoughts on custom Pooh Sticks?


The thing is, Ed, PBF and Wanker could just as eaisly comment on Pooh Sticks in the EBB. Just because you go to a new forum doesn't mean Blazer fans can't join you there.


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## basketballrusty (Mar 4, 2003)

Though I rarely post, I'm here daily. The OT posts do not bother me. If I don't want to read them...I don't. Simple as that. I'm too busy pulling against the Jazz/Nugs to worry about much else.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jamel Irief</b>!
> 
> It makes zero sense to say ignore the OT threads here if you don't like them, but not the threads you don't like there.





> The thing is, Ed, PBF and Wanker could just as eaisly comment on Pooh Sticks in the EBB. Just because you go to a new forum doesn't mean Blazer fans can't join you there.


I think you have a basic misunderstanding of how I, and I presume at least some of the other Blazers regulars, visit this site.

I have the Blazers board bookmarked as a favorite. 90% of the time I come to the site at all, I *only* go to the Blazers board. 9% of the rest of the time is the Mod board, and 1% might be everything else (Bulls, Football, EBB) combined.

It is NOT just as easy for me to post on EBB as it is here. I would have to click around to get to the other board, sift through additional topics, and locate what I'm interested in. 

I can ignore OT's I'm not interested in on this board. Easily. But for me to go looking for OTs I *am* interested in on the EBB means I have to wade through two boards worth of stuff.

It's POSSIBLE to go around the whole site on a regular basis, but the Blazers board generally keeps me busy enough, and since it seems like other people in this community tend to agree, I'd argue if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Ed O.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

There *is* a time element in every new board you visit.

Some people like to just hit this board and go.

Again, I'm curious: For those that dislike OT threads on this board, how do they affect you if you simply ignore them (don't click on them)?

I think the answer to that would go a long way in helping understand the no-political/religious-discussion position.


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## Gym Rat (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> There *is* a time element in every new board you visit.
> 
> Some people like to just hit this board and go.
> ...


Me too! Please explain!


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jamel Irief</b>!
> 
> 
> The thing is, Ed, PBF and Wanker could just as eaisly comment on Pooh Sticks in the EBB. Just because you go to a new forum doesn't mean Blazer fans can't join you there.


Jamel, I hear you but I feel you've totally missed my point. 

Hmm....


Okay, picture this: Here we all are in the downtown library. We're there because we love books, we want to support such a thing in our community, someone's hot for one of the checkout clerks, whatever. We also all have our favorite sections: Sci Fi; Home Improvement; Fantasy; Self-Help; etc. Some of us who've been regular hanger-outers in...let's say Pooh Corner have begun having quiet conversations about things other than Winnie the Pooh. Now you, HTTY, and perhaps a few others seem to want to get to move to a more appropriate room. I get that. It might help out dynamics in that room. It would be somehow more "right" and all would be okay in the universe. Thing is, we all know that room is there and we're pretty content to sit here. The couch is comfy, the view is nice and, most importantly, all the folks who's opinions I want are here. I don't need new friends or, if/when I do I can go venturing out when I see a reason to. Your reasons aren't working for me. And really, banning OT threads here won't be reason enough either. See, I'm not actually one of those often talking about anything besides my beloved Pooh Sticks. I like getting to listen in on some of the other conversation but, if that conversation gets banned, I'll accept slightly less richness in my life rather than go find another really cool room with really cool people I think want to spend more and more time with.... You don't seem to understand that I'm *already* spending more time online than I should for the balance of my life. In that sense, banning OT threads here might help me out, though I'll miss them if they go. In as much as fear is relevant for me here, it's not that I'm afraid I wouldn't like the new room, it's that I'm afraid I *would*.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> There *is* a time element in every new board you visit.
> 
> Some people like to just hit this board and go.
> ...


Yes! What's it matter? I feel very much like there are cozy little conversations happening here and suddenly people are bursting in saying, "No no no! Don't have these conversations here, click your mouse three times and you'll be in the "proper" place for such conversation.


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## trifecta (Oct 10, 2002)

Count me in for allowing OT posts. I can't really see any downside at all apart from taking mods' time to monitor and it really does provide some level of depth to individual posters.

Plus, while I don't necessarily rely on my fellow posters for religious or political insight, there are often some pretty interesting links that provide good information.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Well I say if the Blazer posters want OT topics, everyone give them OT threads!!! Some admin should just change the name of the forum to "Portland Trail Blazers / Everything Else", name would be reflective of the content.  

-Petey


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> Well I say if the Blazer posters want OT topics, everyone give them OT threads!!! Some admin should just change the name of the forum to "Portland Trail Blazers / Everything Else", name would be reflective of the content.
> 
> -Petey


Stick it Yankee boy...:grinning:


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> Well I say if the Blazer posters want OT topics, everyone give them OT threads!!! Some admin should just change the name of the forum to "Portland Trail Blazers / Everything Else", name would be reflective of the content.
> 
> -Petey


our motto should be 

"It's a Portland thing. You wouldn't understand"


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

I'm okay with OT threads, I think it helps to establish a better sense of understanding for fellow posters. Instead of being just a name with an avatar that only talks about the Blazers, it lets you explore a little more of each individual's personality and builds a sense of individuality. I post OT threads here (sometimes) because I enjoy what you guys have to say and I don't feel like I would be getting the same responses or elements of a conversation from a different board where I don't know many of the other posters by name. I'm all for it as long as the thread is labeled OT. If you don't like it, skip it. Perhaps, there can be an option on this site where you can ignore all threads that are posted as OT for people who just plain can't stand the sight of "OT". Just a suggestion, if plausible.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

Like Jamel said earlier, I'm not a regular here. Not even close. But I wanted to throw something out there:

I'm a semi-regular on the Everything But Basketball board, but I mainly do my posting at the Pistons board. Now, I noticed a couple of people comment on the high school and middle school mentality of posters on the EBB, and I would have to agree. But, with intellectual people from Portland posting there, the quality of the board as a whole goes up, as it moves away from being a childish board. When Minstrel came to the board, the quality of the board went up, and I'm already noticing a difference in quality with Schilly and Hap around. I like to discuss politics and religion, and it's nice to get opinions from intelligent people. Plus, hey, you get the advantage of hearing this crazy guy from Michigan's perspective.

Thanks (for Sheed  ),
jvanbusk


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## bintim70 (Dec 31, 2002)

If I don't like them, I don't keep reading........I think off topic is fine because a lot of humor is in some of them.


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

Like someone said b4 , this Blazers Forum is bookmarked as my homepage , not the main BBB page - i come directly here as its my main area of interest. This is the community im involved with , the Blazers Forum community - not really the bbb community on a whole , i really just dont have time for it. I get all the relevant info i need and join in on the odd OT discussion within this part of bbb, thats my nutshell and im lovin it.


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## Crazy Fan From Idaho (Dec 31, 2002)

Blazer Board OTs are good. I like the cozy, comfy community we have here. 

I am from Idaho and get intimidated in metropolitan areas like EBB.

Besides I don't mind it if you guys think I'm crazy, but I don't want strangers thinking that!!!!!

Sabonis JEGA!!!!!!


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

One quick word of explanation for *why* we have our OT threads and many people feel protective of them (I'm not one of them, but I say keep 'em unless some harm can be shown from them).

It's not an elitism thing. There's no feeling of disdain for what fans of other teams think. In fact, I've never seen non-Portland fans shooed off the OT threads here, if they choose to come by and comment.

The reason they exist is because this community has been together for a while and, no disrespect to anyone, transcends this, or any other, board. This *is* a great board and obviously I want to help make it good as I am willing to spend the time to moderate, but the community's "history" goes well beyond this board.

Like any other community, people want to get to know one another, on a greater level than the purpose for being here. It's similar to co-workers wanting to get to know one another as people, even though it has nothing to do with why they're together--their job. You work/talk together for long enough, you like to know the other people better. So threads began popping up, long ago, asking what people do for an occupation, what music they like, etc.

The natural progression was to talk "important" topics, see how people thought about issues beyond sports. Since we like many others here, it's a natural venue to get opinions and alternate viewpoints.

The EBB board is set up for such a purpose, and does it well, allowing the regulars from the main NBA board to chat together. But for Portland board'ers, they don't have that history or familiarity with them. They *could* go out and get that familiarity, but you could also go out to all the discussion boards, outside of BBB.net, and do that. Every new community you try to get to know takes a huge amount of time. Lots of people don't wish to invest that kind of time.

So that's a synopsis of *why* Portland fans on this board discuss everything under the sun and do it *here*. At least, in my opinion. And anyone else, fans of any other team, is fully tolerated in joining in.


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

*sniff sniff, the sweet xmell of senophobia*



> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Plus, hey, you get the advantage of hearing this crazy guy from Michigan's perspective.


They already got that in me but it's more a disadvantage.

See? This place already has it all.

I'm for the OT threads, they add the spice of life and ignorance of the rest of the bbb.net (it's scary out there) what could be better?

Stuart


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## Nightfly (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Gym Rat</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't like EBB because it seems high schoolish and sexist.


Then don't click on threads you find to be "high schoolish or sexist." 90% of the time you can tell before clicking on the thread.

One could easily just say "I don't like the Blazers forum because they have so many OT threads."

I realize you all have been a community for a while now, but I don't buy the whole "Oh, I can't spend time to get to know a whole new community!" argument. It's not that hard to click a couple of times to get to the EBB forum.


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## brewmaster (Dec 31, 2002)

*I like OT*

I enjoy the OT threads. I too have this page bookmarked. I don't have time to go to other parts of the board.

I am very middle of the road politically and enjoy the opposing sides in the political debates. It definitely enlightens me and broadens my knowledge.

If you don't like OT threads, there's no need to look at 'em.

I also like when Hap or someone else starts a thread on current events like someone dying (JJ Jackson for instance). I don't have time to go to CNN, too. So, sometimes I get my local (or national) news update just by going to this board. And usually, as it should, the thread rolls off the first page in one day.

The only thing I do NOT like:

I hate it when it's a totally basketball related thread and someone throws a political reference to prove their point. 

<b>The words Bush, Kerry, liberal, conservative, Republican, Democrat, WMD, etc., DO NOT BELONG IN ANY BASKETBALL RELATED THREAD ON THIS BOARD!!!</b>

I respect people and their deep political beleifs. But keep it completely out of the basketball threads.

And I know it's going to be hard for 8 more months in this political season to keep the the political references out of basketball threads. But if everyone could keep the political references out of the basketball threads, I'm all for OT threads.


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## Gym Rat (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HearToTemptYou</b>!
> 
> 
> Then don't click on threads you find to be "high schoolish or sexist." 90% of the time you can tell before clicking on the thread.
> ...


I spent time over there. I was even a moderator for the EBB board for a short period of time. I know the community and know it well enough that it isn't for me on a regular basis. Childish and sexist... I can take it sometimes, other times I simply have no tolerence for it. There are some very solid posters over there too and some good threads but the other stuff seems to take over the place.

It isn't in my best interest to bash any of the forums here at bbb.net - so I will quit with that last response.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

I don't understand the need to typecast a whole entire forum simply because of a few posters. Like HearToTempt said, if the thread title reads "Wut is yur fav rapper of all time!11!1?", it's fairly obvious what the thread content will reveal. There is often thoughtful, witty, and intelligent discussion on the EBB forum that you may miss out on. And personally, I regret this stereotype of all 17 year olds being sophomoric and childish.


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> Hmmm.
> 
> Is this really THAT much of a problem? Currently, I see zero off topic threads on the front page of the Blazers forum, aside from threads complaining about off topic threads.
> ...



damn you're smart.

ditto what he said.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> I don't understand the need to typecast a whole entire forum simply because of a few posters. Like HearToTempt said, if the thread title reads "Wut is yur fav rapper of all time!11!1?", it's fairly obvious what the thread content will reveal. There is often thoughtful, witty, and intelligent discussion on the EBB forum that you may miss out on. And personally, I regret this *stereotype* of all 17 year olds being *sophomoric* and childish.


Big words hurt my head. What do they mean?

I'm sure alot of you know I was joking in my last response, I have joked about spam with alot of you. Remember my posting of all related spam and their photos?

What does sophomoric mean?

-Petey


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> 
> 
> Big words hurt my head. What do they mean?
> ...


A high school sophomore!!11! Durrrrr!111


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> And personally, I regret this stereotype of all 17 year olds being sophomoric and childish.


We meant you, when we said "sophomoric and childish."


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> A high school sophomore!!11! Durrrrr!111


You're 17 and a high school sophomore? You better start crack'n those books better and forget about the Yankees, I remember being 15/16 as a sophomore in high school! 

-Petey


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

I know I haven't been posting the last few months, but I probably qualify as a regular. If the OT threads went away, I'd probably lose interest in BBB.net. I don't care what a bunch of random strangers have to say about random subjects over in EBB. If they all came to this site and posted about the blazers, I still wouldn't care. I care what people say on this board because I 'know' them. I've been reading their posts for a couple of years now, and they seem strangely human to me. Allow them to comment only on one subject, however, and they'll gradually become less and less human, more and more boring, and eventually I'll wander off. 

barfo


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>barfo</b>!
> I know I haven't been posting the last few months, but I probably qualify as a regular. If the OT threads went away, I'd probably lose interest in BBB.net. I don't care what a bunch of random strangers have to say about random subjects over in EBB. If they all came to this site and posted about the blazers, I still wouldn't care. I care what people say on this board because I 'know' them. I've been reading their posts for a couple of years now, and they seem strangely human to me. Allow them to comment only on one subject, however, and they'll gradually become less and less human, more and more boring, and eventually I'll wander off.


Now, if you'll excuse barfo, he has to catch up on "OT American Idol."


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## FeloniusThunk (Jan 1, 2003)

> (much snippage)
> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> The reason they exist is because this community has been together for a while and, no disrespect to anyone, transcends this, or any other, board.
> ...


Great post. I think the off topic threads are necessary simply because this Blazers community is an independent community. Trying to shoehorn the posters here into the rest of the site might help the rest of the site, but doing it by force will actually weaken the sense of community already built.

That said, I don't want this board to turn into something where basketball is not the primary focus. Some of the value would be lost if I see most or all of the posts about other things. I don't have to click the OT threads, but if they vastly outnumber the bb threads, I will start to feel like I'm in the wrong place. There's a sports radio station here in Seattle that has become unlistenable to me in the mornings, simply because they talk about anything except sports. Occasional, even frequent noon-sports topics is one thing, purely non-sports is something else.

I guess the constitutional crisis here is how much can our board be about other things. A third? Half? 10 percent? It's going to be a different ratio for off-season, too. I don't know. I'm guessing it's around a third to a quarter, based on nothing especially rational.

_(big geek stream of consciosness aside)_ 
Maybe implementing a little Blazer-o-meter, hoops-o-meter, and Portland-o-meter off to the side would be interesting. It could show a percentage of posts for the day that are on their topic. Then you could see, or perhaps set, your tolerance and how it's working out at a given hour. Maybe alerts could be sent to the board's keepers that things are getting into the red zone and that somebody ought to be recruited into posting some on topic things. I suppose a busy and savvy enough board could set up some traffic analysis against this and see how viewing patterns are influenced or not by the the meter readings. Geez, throw in some context-sensitive ads (Portland meter is high, throw out some local ads), set up some choicer news feeds to be sold to sports wires (or at least the Blazers' PR flacks), and sell "I pegged the meter" t-shirts and coffee mugs. I need to get a job doing stuff like that, and forget this whole redesigning my company's call center app as a web app thing.


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HearToTemptYou</b>!
> Then don't click on threads you find to be "high schoolish or sexist." 90% of the time you can tell before clicking on the thread.


HTTY

I don't think its that simple with EBB as it's not threads that are simply high-schoolish or sexist, its *some* of the posters themselves. 

Therefore any thread can be high-jacked at anytime with sophmoric comments, sexism, and what have you.

Stuart


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## Nightfly (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>s a b a s 11</b>!
> 
> 
> HTTY
> ...


The ignore function of the board takes care of that problem.


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## Flaming Homer (Jan 27, 2003)

Though I rarely comment on OT-Threads, I like to read them. And mostly because of the reason, that these are all familiar people to me. It's like the thread _Minstrel_ started for a while: "Posters who cause you to click a thread". I care more about the opinion of the users here than others. 
But if it's a problem for the mods, I would say close them or name another mod like _The Wanker_. But I would miss something on this board.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HearToTemptYou</b>!
> 
> 
> The ignore function of the board takes care of that problem.


yes, but then what are we left with?

about 7 posters who regularly post here anyway.


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## Playmaker0017 (Feb 13, 2004)

Again, I don't really understand the debate here.

We ARE a close community. We ARE elitest. We like our own guys and value our own opinions. 

THAT is what a community is. 

We are a sub-community set inside a larger community. 

I don't care what people outside my sphere of "friends" have to say on most subjects. I have no connection to them. 

Anyhow, we value the opinions of our group and thus we create threads for our group to discuss stuff in.

If you don't want to read them ... don't. But, there is no reason to ban them here. If that were to happen, I have to admit, my usage would drastically decline. (maybe that's a good thing)

Play.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> The EBB board is set up for such a purpose, and does it well, allowing the regulars from the main NBA board to chat together. But for Portland board'ers, they don't have that history or familiarity with them. They *could* go out and get that familiarity, but you could also go out to all the discussion boards, outside of BBB.net, and do that. Every new community you try to get to know takes a huge amount of time. Lots of people don't wish to invest that kind of time.


When this community came over here this site was about 5 months old. Since the Portland board has estabilished itself others have joined this site knowing no one and estabilished themselves and made other relationships. Most of the Portland board has made no such effort.

I guess I'll never understand and leave at that. It just really is a shame to me because I think most of you guys would like the rest of this site and vice versa. Its not even about the EBB since I feel that is one of the less signifcant boards here. I mean why would you feel more comfortable talking about a amazing Gilbert Arenas game among Portland fans than people who watch him more frequently?


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jamel Irief</b>!
> 
> ....Since the Portland board has estabilished itself others have joined this site knowing no one and estabilished themselves and made other relationships. Most of the Portland board has made no such effort....


Yes, we're a haughty bunch, aren't we?


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HearToTemptYou</b>!
> The ignore function of the board takes care of that problem.


My thing is, why go through all that skipping over threads and blacklisting posters (which brings up another issue of possibly missing something important mentioned in the thread) what fun is that? 

I know if I started going to a board and have to think about ignoring posters more than twice/thrice, I probably would just rather leave the board entirely... which has actually happend about 8 months ago with the bbb.net NBA board (but has since gotten better) 

Anyways, I like the OT threads, but they aren't my only refuge for political, social and really big fish stories (thanks ABM)... there are other sites I go to also... its just nice to have a little variety in here.

Stuart


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

I officially withdraw my stance. My interest is and always has been the Blazers Board community.

I agree with Jemel. We are in our comfort Zone. The fact of the mattrer is no one joined this community knowing the group, we had to get to know the group. I feel that it is too bad that people who really enjoy debates and non-sports/Blazers/Oregon topics never check out other forums. While yes there is some stupid stuff on other boards there is plenty of stuff that is just fun as well. I think if Blazer fans were to venture out it would help BBB as a whole, potential members will see a more active community within other fourms. You may find that those posting on other boards are more familiar than you realize as most of the really active posters frequent our board already.

KXL


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>s a b a s 11</b>!
> 
> ..Anyways, I like the OT threads, but they aren't my only refuge for political, social and really big fish stories (thanks ABM)...


Hey, no prob.


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## Crazy Fan From Idaho (Dec 31, 2002)

*OSFA Sports Site????*

I don't understand why it bothers some people that many of us wish to stay in our own forum.

It doesn't bother me that there are some of us who go to other team forums or to the NBA board or to EBB.

Each of us different. Some like to mingle. Some don't. Some like to dip their toes in the waters of other boards occasionally. Some divide their time equally among several boards. Why is this a problem?????

What this Blazer Board offers to us is unique. A blend of Blazer items, general news items, and social discussion/debate within the context of a community that has been together for several years. Although our discussions branch out readily, it is still the fact that we are Blazer fans that is our common bond and our common starting point. Discussing players of other teams with people who see them play night in and night out is fine.......unless we are wanting to get a Blazer fan perspective on that player. Here we get a Blazer fan perspective on the things we are talking about.

Maybe it is all we have been through together with our team, with the challenges associated with changing of forum sites and with the associated struggles within our community, that tends to keep us all bunched together on our Blazer board. Whatever it is.....it is a strong force.

Speaking personally and selfishly but honestly, I really am not all that interested in what's good for BBB.net as a whole. I'm not here to promote or maintain a site. I'm here because my internet Blazer pals are here. My favorite player is gone, but I am still here. I have no plans to start frequenting EBB, although I do check it occasionally. I hope Blazer Board OTs won't be discouraged or discontinued to try to "force" us to go to EBB for the good of the site. 

Sorry for rambling....


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> We meant you, when we said "sophomoric and childish."


Of course. The profile fits me perfectly. I was just talking about rukahS capuT. You really shouldn't group him in with the rest of us immature 17 year olds. Anyways, I'm off to post a new "why Alvin Williams belongs in the HOF". Now that my alias Mattsanity was banned, I have no choice but to use this crummy old name.


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jamel Irief</b>!
> 
> 
> When this community came over here this site was about 5 months old. Since the Portland board has estabilished itself others have joined this site knowing no one and estabilished themselves and made other relationships. Most of the Portland board has made no such effort.
> ...


waaaa. that's all i gotta say about that one. We already have a pretty finite amount of time in our day to be spending it on this message board.

human contact > e-contact


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ABM</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey, no prob.


No way that is crazy. Is that a catch from a member of this forum?

-Petey


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## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

That photo is linked to a recent email going around about a state record in Texas...

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_2004_catfish.htm

The recrod breaking catfish was actually a different fish and this photo has been unidentified.


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## HOWIE (Dec 30, 2002)

I think that OT Threads should be kept. No one on this board agrees 100% of the time and I find some threads funny, while others I stay away from.

We all have common ground on whom we root for as a team, but when it comes to political views or religious beliefs not many of us see eye to eye. You can express your ideas, thoughts and beliefs, but it doesn't mean that someone is less of a person for not thinking the way you do, nor is it a reason to attack them.

I had a great time at the Blazer Bash with Ed O. even if he was wrong about the Wells vs. Stackhouse debate. I also get along with my good buddy Hap, even if he was the enemy in that same debate. :bsmile:

Take it for what it is people, an opinion and move on. If we all believed in the same thing this really would be a boring place to post wouldn't it?

I look at it like I am grocery shopping, I don't go into the store and buy everything, I just go in and get what I need and go home. My advice to you is to do the same thing and you'll be much happier.


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

*Sly and the family*



> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> No way that is crazy. Is that a catch from a member of this forum?
> 
> -Petey


Yep, thats actually son of bintim on the left and BlayZa is in backward baseball cap.

And the fish is theWanker.

(whistles "We Are Family")

Stuart


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

dude. I took the hint last week and washed my jock strap. 

why you still dissin on its smell?


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

one of the reason, speaking for myself, why i rarely go to other forums is I simply could care less about other teams besides the Blazers.


i did however check out the EBB board last night and added it to my bookmarks, so I'll probably be in there off and on. But I still think the OT threads in this board are a good thing.

A lot of the Blazer posters on this site have been on other boards and we've sort of moved around through the years. My trek is OregonLive-Fanhome-NewFanhome-BBB.net. And there are several like me. So part of the reason why we tend to sort of stay stuck in our little Blazer board is that a lot of us have already been doing this message board thing for some time at a lot of different stops along the way and now that we have a seemingly permanent home, we like it this way.


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## HOWIE (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tommyboy</b>!
> one of the reason, speaking for myself, why i rarely go to other forums is I simply could care less about other teams besides the Blazers.
> 
> 
> ...


Could not have said it any better than that! :clap:


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Before you go click on this, be warned that this could be offensive. But 

here is a prime example of why some of us avoid EBB.


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## BlazerFanFoLife (Jul 17, 2003)

I enjoy offtopic threads, i look at other forums but i dont always post there because i feel that i dont really care about those peoples oppinions, a great thing about the oppinions here although they might be different and scew from your own, you kinda have a comrodery in all being blazer fans, if I say i enjoy the Willamet river many people in other boards wouldnt understand that, but people here understand how one can love and enjoy the Poluted waters of the 80's and 70's still today in downtown portland... what im saying is we can talk about something here and i feel not offend eachother as much because we are more familiar with this comunity


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

My vote would be to keep the OT threads.

My BBB.net time is probably spent thusly:

90% on the Blazers forum
2% on the Salaries/CBA forum
8% perusing other forums

And I honestly don't have any more spare time to search other forums for "interesting topics of discussion". I often ignore the OT threads, but will read those that are of interest to me personally (even if I don't make a post). I enjoy most of the humorous ones and will sometimes chime in on the political/philosophical/religious threads.

If that makes me elitist or snobbish, so be it. As an earlier poster on this thread said, I'd rather spend more time in face to face relationships than in Internet ones.


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## Gym Rat (Dec 30, 2002)

I think we are good and have enough input now. Thanks for responding!


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## BLAZER PROPHET (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm getting in on this very late, but I like the sports OT threads but the other just take up space. 

Also, all the 'sticky's' and announcements that crowd the top 6 or 7 spots are annoying as well.


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## HOWIE (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> Before you go click on this, be warned that this could be offensive. But
> 
> here is a prime example of why some of us avoid EBB.


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