# KVH is too clutch



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

How did we trade him for that un-clutch player, Tim Thomas? That a travesty. Look at today's game, it was so obvious KVH is so much better in crunch time.


----------



## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

dear lord i hope your joking.


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

keith in the second half- 0-8 scoreless and a few costly turnovers

Tim played well in the second half and hit a bunch of big free throws with thousands of people booing him.

and look who had more rebounds! Tim can pull down boards.


----------



## GONYK (Aug 14, 2002)

Yup, the whole Knick sqaud came to play in the 2nd half. EVEN PENNY made jumpshots!! And TT played like a champ today. He had something to prove, and he was a difference maker. He outplayed KVH in every way, and for 24 mins was the better player of the two.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*Thank You,Thank You*

There is a heaven....During the first half I could just see rashidi's itchy lil fingers ready to start typing away and BLAST the knicks..And I am sure KBF wasnt very far behind.......I cant wait for rashidis sarcastic new post

Once and for all will you guys get off of TT..He really isnt playing that badly,and it is so blatantly obvious if he ever gets it really together he is WAY more talented than KVH..Give the guy a chance

As For the rest of the team,Vin is gonna make a huge difference if he can get in NBA shape and stay off the bottle...And Sweetny is an absolute beast...His RPG per 48 minutes is off the charts....

By the way,is anyone suprised HVH didnt score ion the second half?????The Invisiblle man returns


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

Where is Rashidi anyway?


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NYKFan123</b>!
> 
> Where is Rashidi anyway?


Off stroking his Van Horn.


----------



## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Please tone down your displeasure with Rashidi.

-Petey


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

I went to the game Van Horn just got cold after the 1st qtr. But the nachos were good.


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> Please tone down your displeasure with Rashidi.
> 
> -Petey


Tell him to stop trashing our team and players and to go to the Suns board where he is wanted. That's all we ask.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Off stroking his Van Horn.


LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Petey,we are not at all displeased with Rashidi at this particular moment....You are a member of the board,you see his posts..This is good natured teasing,and it portains to basketball....He was the one who constantly brought upp Van Horn and the trade..I can assure you,had KVH scored the winning bucket,it would have been me hiding and him lambasting me.....

BTW,how can you tell us to calm it down..Did you read what was posted to me when I brought up the game and Ewing vs Hakeem???I liked it,is was fun,but the psyco dude leveled me...

How about a little consistency from the mods??


----------



## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

No sorry. I didn't see the attack on you. I try to read every thread in the Atlantic Divsion but it's very hard to keep track of that. If you have a problem feel free to pm me. If I saw it, it would had been handled. Please remember we as mods don't always get to review every thread, it's not easy.

Yes I know you were not beind super harsh with him. Notice I made no edits? My thing is just toning it down, good banter is fun at times, but everyone should try to keep it going any further.

-Petey


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I cant stop laughing my bulls off thinking about rashidi's first half euphoria turning into utter dispair.....:laugh: 


There is a basketball god and he is a fair one 

anyone check the suns board for a rashidi sighting??


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Petey,as long as the topic is basketball,i am fine with guys busting one another...its the nature of sports rivalrys,though rashidi is a knick fan and i still havea rivalry with him

those posts were NOTHING compared to what i got...

Someone sure is sensitive


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Gotta love the one game decides everything culture around here. 


Tim Thomas put up a good game one time against Van Horn once for the first time. One good game his premier appearance, clearly he is better. Van Horn didn't have one good game, Tim Thomas did have one good game. This is all you need to decide. Let's make more threads about this? Better yet lets all pretend like real fans haven't been going through hell for the last 4 years and focus only on the few positive moments we have. Won't that be great to do a 3 and out in the playoffs?!! Sure it will!


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I don't mean to be harsh with Rashidi. But he's so emotionally attached to his tall Van Horn. You now, he bombards the list with his stats... when he plays big... but after a game like yesterday, when he shrivelled... he's gone.

I just figured Rashidi went to spend some time with his beloved Van Horn... you know, to lend a hand, to help build him back up again.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Gotta love the Irony. Rashidi isn't obessed with Van Horn. You guys are obessesd with him.


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Gotta love the Irony. Rashidi isn't obessed with Van Horn. You guys are obessesd with him.


So what are you trying to say? That Rashidi is right on everything he says? Because he obviously isn't and is a hypocrite of a Knicks fan.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

KBF,what exactly are you trying to say?????

You know as well as i do,you and Rashidi were going to TERRORISE us with anti thomas rants..yes Isiah sukkks and Tim Thomas is garbage,brainless etc.....You guys do it normally,so you knew it was going to be extra ugly after the first half performance....


But it didnt happen the way you noodleheads hoped...And now


justice is served and its payback time 

take your medicine like a man:grinning:


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Gotta love the Irony. Rashidi isn't obessed with Van Horn. You guys are obessesd with him.


Maybe we are obsessed with him in a way, but I think it is because he is obsessed with arguing with us too. To be honest, how many times have you ever seen Rashidi just say, "I agree"? There are times probably, but he usually likes to argue with us, so we argue with him. If we are obsessed with Rashidi, then he is obsessed with us too IMO.


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

All these pro's and con's would have alot more credence if people would stop judging after one or two games. As far as I'm concerned, they both played half a game. The Knicks winning doesn't make TT's game any better or worse than VH's. TT has played one FULL good game and VH has had several since the trade. Let's check at seasons end and we can see which of us is full of crap. I hope it ain't me...you guys are brutal. But for now lets all remember that each game is only that...one game and it proves nothing.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> All these pro's and con's would have alot more credence if people would stop judging after one or two games.... TT has played one FULL good game and VH has had several since the trade. Let's check at seasons end and we can see which of us is full of crap...


If you'd live by your own creed and not pre judge you wouldn't have to worry about being judged wrong. You made your mind up a long time ago about the trade, and all the while TT has played well, but you say it's just one game. You certainly don't tell those who constantly stroke their Van Horns not to judge.

But you think VH is the 5th best forward in the league, so who could expect you to be fair or patient...


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

BTW,if the Anti TT fans took a different approach to get there point across,this "rivalry" wouldnt exist..Ill be ther first to admit that we have played like garbage since the Van Horn trade...

But it is much more fun this way.....

What is intresting is the people who defend TT arent TT supporters..They are fans saying give the guy a chance,and have nothing bad to say about KVH

On the other hand,The KVH supporters have been ripping TT,and making comparisons on a daily basis....

To be honest,I think some od the posters hope the knicks dont make the playoffs just so they can RIP Thomas,marbury,TT and validate their ranting this year


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NYKFan123</b>!
> 
> 
> So what are you trying to say? That Rashidi is right on everything he says? Because he obviously isn't and is a hypocrite of a Knicks fan.



What do you mean what am I trying to say you fool?! It's right there read it. You guys are on his nuts way to much.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> KBF,what exactly are you trying to say?????
> 
> You know as well as i do,you and Rashidi were going to TERRORISE us with anti thomas rants..yes Isiah sukkks and Tim Thomas is garbage,brainless etc.....You guys do it normally,so you knew it was going to be extra ugly after the first half performance....
> ...



In your messed up little world you somehow think that me proving you wrong yet again, supersedes my want to see this team succeed. 

Reality check. I'd love to eat my words and see us win a championship. The difference is ; I have a better grasp of what that takes.


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Hey Oak...KVH is the superior player...period. Check around with quotes from GM, coaches, and guys that have played with them. I haven't seen one guy come out and say TT is a better player...not one. As far as my opinion goes, you are right. I have hated the trade from day one. I have always liked what KVH brings to the table and I have always thought TT was one of the biggest underachievers I have ever seen. The fact that they were traded for each other makes no difference to me. Getting rid of VH was a bad idea unless we got someone that could do the same things. I never wanted TT on the team even before VH was there. I think Spree does the same things as TT and always plays hard. You are very wrong that I am judging on a few games. I have held these beliefs quite a while. What I met, and I gave you credit to understand as much, is that there is no reason to catcall after every game the one or the other does badly. Each game proves nothing. It is the sum of the games. You have not seen me here saying I told you so when KVH does great or when TT does badly. I also said each would have good and bad games. I don't waffle.


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean what am I trying to say you fool?! It's right there read it. You guys are on his nuts way to much.


And you are on his and he is on ours. And were all a big happy family...


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> You have not seen me here saying I told you so when KVH does great or when TT does badly. I also said each would have good and bad games. I don't waffle.


thats true,alfa...and you bring up an interesting point...



> I think Spree does the same things as TT and always plays hard


Were you pro/con in the Spree for Van Horn trade????I always felt that as much as I loved Spree,he was playing out of position,too small,gettin a little older and we had to make a trade..Now that you brought up the TT/spree comparison,I would have traded Spree for TT in a minute....Which in a round about way we did..

To me,Thomas is POTENTIALLY what the team needs,but as you say,can he bring it every night...Someone has to light a fire under his assssss....The more Marbury gets trapped,the more we need a guy to handle the rock and create..It aint Houston,and it really isnt Van Horn..It may not be TT due to his BBall IQ,but we need someone like him,or a younger taller Spree


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NYKFan123</b>!
> 
> 
> And you are on his and he is on ours. And were all a big happy family...



How am I on his nuts. You're delusional kid.


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> How am I on his nuts. You're delusional kid.


Doubt I'm delusional buddy. You go around and defend him in every topic he is arguing in. Don't you think that is hanging on his nuts? Anyway point is, we just want to have a normal Knicks message board and not see a topic a day dissing the Knicks and the entire franchise for no reason(even after they win).


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> How am I on his nuts


KBF,you dissapoint me.......

I think the youngster was implying you are litterally on Rashidis nuts..Please dont ask me to explain it in greater detail:no:


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Truth, I was in favor of the VH trade. However, I envisioned him as a power forward to give us athleticism and scoring there while using our glut of existing PF's to trade for a true SF or high pick. I obviously didn't know about Marbury coming here (and to tell the truth, I wasn't a fan of his...time will tell but he is doing great with what he has to work with). I pictured FW and Vujanic coming later. I thought Lampe would be a new generation center combining with the other guys to form a combination of youth, experience, and athleticism without mortgaging the future. Unlike you guys, I can take the team losing as long as there is a plan. I'm an old guy..I have been through it. How many of you guys remember the Ray Williams/Ken Bannister days? Maybe Harthorne Wingo?  Luther Rackley? I can be patient but give me a plan. Needless to say, KNick management and several of the guys here didn't share my vision. I thought we would get another lottery pick this year and be free of the cumbersome salaries in a couple more...then look out. Melo in NY? LeBron? Dirk? Lots of possibilities. I am disappointed we forfeited our flexibility and future....but thats just me...I'm a worrier.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Alfa,you hit the nail on the head..I was also in favor of the KVH trade,knowing full well Dyss may NEVER play Bball again and Spree is no small foward...The problem with the knicks is,they changed their look and players so many times,i didnt know which player fit the system any more...

Do i like the Van Horn trade???I guess so..Do i think TT is better than KVH..probably not...But Naz is decent and its hard to count on Vin Baker long term..I do think TT makes sense assuming he brings it every night..

I honestly believe Layden destroyed the franchise..He was the one who mortgaged the future with the Mcdyss trade..That was a very bad bet..It had upside,but with a low probability..

We should have nuked the Knicks at that very moment,and played Sweetney and Lampe,hoped for vujanic and a high draft pick..But for whatrever reason($$$$) we chose not to..be honest,if you were Dolan would you trust Layden to rebuild or retool???I think not.....

Give Thomas credit..he has a vision and he wasnt scared to execute..This team was dead in the water until thomas came along..The garden was becooming the meadowlands......

I am not happy with the knicks performance..It befuddles me..maybe its Houston,as he is just not contributing,is a defensive liability and offere marbury no help....Whatever it is,I do think our future is far brighter than anytime in the last 3 years


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> Hey Oak...KVH is the superior player...period. Check around with quotes from GM, coaches, and guys that have played with them. I haven't seen one guy come out and say TT is a better player...not one.


Right, and that includes myself and anyone else I've seen on this board. But some of us have said that because he brings a different and badly needed skillset, and that the trade included Nazr, the trade could work out to be in the best interest of the team. So far it's still too early to say.

The only thing we're arguing about is that you seem to think it grand of those who mours the loss of VH and gush over every good game he has as a Buck, but guys who have respect for TT are allowed no praise of him.



> there is no reason to catcall after every game the one or the other does badly. Each game proves nothing. It is the sum of the games.


Well I've seen you dog anyone who says something good about TT or bad about VH. If I ever saw you telling a VH lover not to post his Bucks stats I'd have more respect for your stated position.




> I don't waffle.


I don't know what to make of that. First, it sounds as though you are saying no eventual reality can change an opinion you've chosen to dig your heels in on, right or wrong. That doesn't sound like something I'd brag about. Second, you're waffling on Marbury, and I respect you for it.




> I can take the team losing as long as there is a plan. I'm an old guy..I have been through it. How many of you guys remember the Ray Williams/Ken Bannister days? Maybe Harthorne Wingo? Luther Rackley? I can be patient but give me a plan. Needless to say, KNick management and several of the guys here didn't share my vision. I thought we would get another lottery pick this year and be free of the cumbersome salaries in a couple more...then look out. Melo in NY? LeBron? Dirk? Lots of possibilities. I am disappointed we forfeited our flexibility and future....but thats just me...I'm a worrier.



I sympathize with a lot of this, especially about taking pain if it were part of a plan. But there was no articulated plan other than to win-now, and I had no trust in Layden. He traded nearly as much of our youth on Mark Jackson (talk about old) and Othella Harrington as Isiah did on Marbury. There was talk of him re-signing McDyess (gasp!), etc, and he himself said the Knicks would never be under the cap in his lifetime. He insured that with Spoon, Eisley, Anderson, Van Horn, and Houston. Not one was good value for the money, not one had or was given a short term contract.

I think the course we were on was prolonged pain. This idea of going for the playoffs as you are rebuilding through the draft is DUMB. If you want to rebuild through the draft then dump talent for picks, tank, and get high drafts picks and impact players. Layden was trying to rebuild a franchise through late first and second round picks. Good luck.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> Do i like the Van Horn trade???I guess so..Do i think TT is better than KVH..probably not...But Naz is decent and its hard to count on Vin Baker long term..I do think TT makes sense assuming he brings it every night..
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure most of us agree that Van Hornis a better player compared to TT if they were traded just for each other. However, I'm sure most of us will agree that Nazr is a better player compared to Dolec. We all agree that Van Horn probably will post better stats in the long run, but Nazr is an important part of the trade. I was wondering if people could just stop comparing the TT/Van Hron trade on those two players only.

And I agree with what Son of Oakley said. I would have been perfectly fine with breaking up the old team and developing for the future, but frankly, I had no confidence in Layden. He hasn't done anything well since coming here. One problem was the Knicks would probably never blow up the team and rebuild. The ownership just doesn't favor that path IMO. I doubt Layden would have tried to rebuild the team anyway. He probably would have traded the future for some other aging player. In comparision, Marbury is only 27 and still young, so we can still build around him for a short while. The Knicks never seemed to have a future plan besides "get into the playoffs NOW and we will figure out the future later."


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Oak...show me one post where I gloated when VH had a good game or condemned TT when he had a bad game(of which there are many). When I say I don't waffle, I mean I don't waffle in a manner of yes...I mean no...I mean yes..I mean no. I can change my mind but not on a daily basis. I usually wait untill the jury is in. With Marbury it is not in, yet. But I may have been mistaken, although there are persistent rumblings wherever he has come from. The talk in Suns land however may have been planted by the agents for Amare and Marion. I agree that TT gives us something different and changes the look of the team. Is it for the better? Not in my view. All the folks that pictured him recieving passes from SM for easy baskets are instead seeing TT score the majority of his points on 1 on 1 moves. Not exciting, nor is it winning basketball. I never said he couldn't score only that he was soft, unmotivated, and an underachiever. He will not only have to erase those opinions but also prove that what he brings to the game actually makes the Knicks better. Last night he got 30 of the softest points you will ever see. and the team beat the 3rd worst team in the league by a few...at home...in OT..with a depleted opponent. Nothing to get too excited about just yet. And while Nazr shows some promise, he has to get a helluva lot smarter with his defense or he will never be on the floor long enough to make a difference. The team is bigger and more athletic but less efficient offensively.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> The team is bigger and more athletic but less efficient offensively.


Cant argue that..There is something off with this team and its hard to define it....Chemistry is hard to define



> All the folks that pictured him recieving passes from SM for easy baskets are instead seeing TT score the majority of his points on 1 on 1 moves.


There is one guy in the league who gets easy baskets and he is 7'1" 380 pounds...We deparately need a guy who can take his opponent off the dribble and still shoot over 40% frm 3 point land..



> Last night he got 30 of the softest points you will ever see.


30 actually 32 is 32 no matter how you slice it..2 days ago you tell me he scores when it doesnt matter,then the guy pumps in 18 in the second half 2 games ago and last night he puts in 10 in OT and hits a huge 3 pointer in regulation..You cant have it both ways



> Nothing to get too excited about just yet.


Very true...and nothing to be down on him just yet...which is our point


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NYKFan123</b>!
> 
> 
> Doubt I'm delusional buddy. You go around and defend him in every topic he is arguing in. Don't you think that is hanging on his nuts? Anyway point is, we just want to have a normal Knicks message board and not see a topic a day dissing the Knicks and the entire franchise for no reason(even after they win).



I didn't read the rest of this paragraph because I am sure it's filled with more crap. But me defending Rashidi in every post? Are fyou ucking stupid? Do you not see us disagreeing in the Ewing Vs Hakeem thread.


Honestly I know you're a kid but think before you type. Stop acting like a complete moron, unless that's who you really are.


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow lets congratulate you for standing up to him and actually arguing that Ewing is better. Congrats. Age has nothing to do with anything my friend so you can erase that from your mind. Your a stuck up loser who refuses to listen to anything. And if you had read the rest of my post you would have seen that the point I'm trying to make is that I don't want to see crap topics flooding this board basically dissing the Knicks even after they win, and praising Layden. That era has been gone for a while now and sucked majorly. It's time to move on. I'm not here to argue nor to diss the Knicks, I'm here to discuss the Knicks and talk about ways we could improve them in the future. No point in continuing this insult-fest man, because I just said I'm not here for that. So, whatever you have to say you can say as I will not bother to argue everywhere. Later...


----------

