# Have you seen this team's roster whoa get ready L.A. da wolves is comin back to eat



## Sir Magic Boi (Aug 6, 2003)

Cassel, Spree, Michael O. oh boy their is nothing much to 


say.:starwars:


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## Muffin (Feb 11, 2003)

The matchups against LAL is very interesting

PG: 
Sam vs. GP - 2 ex-teammates (at least for 1/2 a season) battling! Both are new to their teams system, both are veterans, and both should be exciting to watch.

SG:
Spree vs Kobe - Spree never backs down from a challenge and this will DEFINITELY be one. Their battle may be the most intense of all. :grinning: The battle of the 8's!

SF:
Wally .vs. DeVean? - not sure who will start for LAL but Fox is out with injuries and DeVean just signed a contract last summer so it's time for him to put up or shut up. Wally has the offensive edge but it'll be interesting to see how effective DeVean is in trying to shut him down. :yes: 

PF:
Malone vs KG - KG rules but never count out the crafty veteran Mailman. He'll get his too. :yes: 

C:
Shaq vs Kandi - Shaq will dominate. The question is, will Kandi perform better with hthe surrounding talent than he did in LAC?

I will definitely be watching when these 2 teams play on January 6th.


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

nice post muffin, kobe may be troubled by his legal probalems
then shaq will pobably lite up kandi with like 30 pts, 10 boards and 2 blocks


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## kaniffmn (Jul 29, 2003)

who's deavan george?


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## luciano (Aug 16, 2002)

I think the Wolves v Lakers will be a great game, but I'll be hoping the Wolves can silence the cop-outs!!! (Malone, Payton)


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>luciano</b>!
> I think the Wolves v Lakers will be a great game, but I'll be hoping the Wolves can silence the cop-outs!!! (Malone, Payton)


:no: 

Another anti-Laker mad at Malone and Payton for leaving no-win situations. What do you propose they should have done? Sit there and play for loser teams? In that case, Kandiman is a "cop out" then. Please, I'd like to know what you think they should have done. Can you provide any intellignet argument? We shall see.




> The matchups against LAL is very interesting
> 
> PG:
> Sam vs. GP - 2 ex-teammates (at least for 1/2 a season) battling! Both are new to their teams system, both are veterans, and both should be exciting to watch.
> ...


I agree with your point guard and power forward assessments. However, the rest is wrong and clearly bias. 

Kobe vs. Sprewell, come on...you know Kobe will dominate him. Last year game 1 kobe scored 40 to Sprewell's 14 and game 2 Kobe scored 46 to Sprewell's 24. Lets be serious.

Wally .vs. George-During the playoffs Devean averaged 7.25 pts. against Wally for the 4 games he was coming off the bench!!! Wally averaged 16ppg. When Fox got hurt George started the last two games and averaged 12ppg against Wally's 11.5. In light of the Wolves needing to double on Shaq and/or Kobe, Wally will have to help so I expect George to do even better against Wally. The Lakers dont double team KG, Phil's chioce, so KG will score but Wally will dissapear as usual when they play the Lakers.

Shaq vs Kandi-You did say Shaq will dominate; however, I believe you should have put it in all CAPS, bold type, underlined...you get the idea. The first game last year, Shaq was injured and Kandi scored a whopping 12 pts on Samaki Walker :laugh: . The second game an out of shape Shaq put up 32 pts and Kandi scored 15 pts but got 6 fouls in 26 minutes and fouled out. The last two games, Kandiman was conveniently injured. Kandiman will not perform better with the surrounding talent, because the surrounding talent wants the ball. So Kandi will get less touches on offense and will be relied upon on defense...his greatest weakness.

:soapbox:


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Malone to NO. GP to Portland.


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> Malone to NO. GP to Portland.




   


What are you talking about?


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## luciano (Aug 16, 2002)

What he is saying is Malone should have gone to New Orleans and Payton to Portland- Is it really THAT hard to understand?

What Malone and Payton should have done is at least gone to teams that could offer their respective market values. Accepting those low-ball offers from the Lakers was lame and it undermines the whole idea of the salary cap.


Malone and Payton are rich beyond their needs, so they took the easy way out in an attempt to win a ring.

1. Malone had a legacy on a "loser" team that hasn't lost in close near 20 seasons- nuff said

2. At least Kandi got an offer that resembled his market value, can't say the same for the other two now can we.

3. Call me a hater all you like, but what I am saying is the TRUTH- so don't bother trying to sugar-coat it.

4. I think of provided more than enough "intelligent arguement".

PS- Devean isn't half the player Wally is, so why pretend he is comparable to Wally?


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>luciano</b>!
> What he is saying is Malone should have gone to New Orleans and Payton to Portland- Is it really THAT hard to understand?
> 
> What Malone and Payton should have done is at least gone to teams that could offer their respective market values. Accepting those low-ball offers from the Lakers was lame and it undermines the whole idea of the salary cap.
> ...



Yes, it is hard to understand when you dont post in sentences and dont provide any substance or reasoning to intelligently support your positions. Why would Malone want to be in NO? Why would anyone willingly choose to walk into the Portland situation?

As for your opinion on what Malone and GP should have done...why should they have gone to try and get their market value? They want to win. Why do you think loser teams with tons of cap space still dont get the big time players (Denver, Utah, Clippers...). Its because players want to make money AND win. You are knocking them for being "lame" (poor reasoning on your part by the way-it does not provide any intellectual basis) but what would have people said if they went to loser teams offering the greatest amount of cash. They would have been called greedy. So whatever they did, if they left their teams they would have been called names like you choose to do. So knowing this, and knowing they wanted to leave their teams, they decided to go somewhere they could accomplish their dream...to win a championship, because no matter what, they would have been called names. 

Undermining the idea of a salary cap...LOL. You are funny. How does two veterans taking less money undermine the salary CAP any more than ~25 teams going over the salary cap every year. This is why there is something called a veterans minimum. Get over it my friend, the salary cap was made to be undermined. 

And what do you mean "the easy way out"? How is this the easy way out? Going to a loser team for max money and not being expected to win would be the easy way out. You apparently just dont like the Lakers and don't want them to win. 

1. You didn't clearly identify you point here, but my point was that Malone would have been on a loser team had he stayed. Clearly before this year, the Jazz was not a loser team...look at the playoff streak.

2. As I recall Kandi was offered more by the Clips, but he did not want to go there. In addition, Kandi thoguht he was worth much more than that, but he gave in for less when he knew he could play with KG. Please, get you facts straight. 

3. A little bit of a cop-out eh? This is the type of statement that people who cannot support their claims with intelligent arguments resort to. Yes, you appear to be anti-Laker, and that is the TRUTH. This is why you have no credibility when you say Malone and GP are selling out. Sugar coat that!

4. Think again. You provide many opinions but do not support them with facts or reasonable arguments. Just look at your last comment about Wally and Devean. Look at last year's playoff stats when going head-to-head and you'll see that you are clearly in the dark. You can look at the stats in my post below if you are too lazy to do so.


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## Muffin (Feb 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jstempi</b>!
> I agree with your point guard and power forward assessments. However, the rest is wrong and clearly bias.
> 
> Kobe vs. Sprewell, come on...you know Kobe will dominate him. Last year game 1 kobe scored 40 to Sprewell's 14 and game 2 Kobe scored 46 to Sprewell's 24. Lets be serious.
> ...


No, I think you're the one that's biased. I am looking at both teams very OBJECTIVELY and stating how fun it will be to ewatch the game. You're clearly a Laker fan and it shows in your "biased" comments. I don't have a problem with team allegiance, just don't call me out unless you know what the word you're calling me really means.

Now, it's understood that Kobe is the better player. That's why I said it will DEFINITELY be a challenge to Sprewell to play extremely well. But if you really want to go there, Kobe's butt may be tied up in court (and I don't mean the basketball court!) considering his legal woes and this battle of the 8's might not even be an issue!

Imo, DeVean has been an NBA flop! 4 years in the L and he has yet to provide consistent help to Shaq and Kobe. Most folks don't even know who he is! He should at least be averaging double figures in scoring even if it's just 10 ppg but he's not! And he puts up worse numbers in the playoffs! Don't just give me the stats for 1 or 2 games! 
DeVean playoff stat: 4.8 ppg, .8 apg, 2.9 rpg, .404 FG%
Wally's playoff stats: 13.4 ppg, 1.8 apg, 4.5 rpg, .465 FG%
Dude, put down the pipe if you think DeVean is better than Wally :dead:

As far as Shaq is concerened, I think you just wanted to rant for the sake of ranting. Once again, it's clear that he will dominate. I'll type "dominate" how I see fit. The word itself means to rule and control. What more do you need!? You just need to calm down. :laugh:


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## Muffin (Feb 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kaniffmn</b>!
> who's deavan george?


Exactly! :laugh:


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Muffin</b>!
> 
> 
> No, I think you're the one that's biased. I am looking at both teams very OBJECTIVELY and stating how fun it will be to ewatch the game. You're clearly a Laker fan and it shows in your "biased" comments. I don't have a problem with team allegiance, just don't call me out unless you know what the word you're calling me really means.


I agree, so we are both biased. :grinning: I will also enjoy the matchup. I think the season series will be 2 to 2 or 3 to 1 in favor of the Lakers. What do you think?



> Now, it's understood that Kobe is the better player. That's why I said it will DEFINITELY be a challenge to Sprewell to play extremely well. But if you really want to go there, Kobe's butt may be tied up in court (and I don't mean the basketball court!) considering his legal woes and this battle of the 8's might not even be an issue!


 Oh, please. Don't resort to this speculation. I though this was going to be an intelligent conversation. :grinning: Legal experts indicate that the trail may not even start until after the season. Yes Kobe may get pulled away a few times during the season but I'm sure the court appointments wont be for every Laker-Wolves game. This is a poor argument, is this all you can come up with? :laugh: 



> Imo, DeVean has been an NBA flop! 4 years in the L and he has yet to provide consistent help to Shaq and Kobe. Most folks don't even know who he is! He should at least be averaging double figures in scoring even if it's just 10 ppg but he's not! And he puts up worse numbers in the playoffs! Don't just give me the stats for 1 or 2 games!
> DeVean playoff stat: 4.8 ppg, .8 apg, 2.9 rpg, .404 FG%
> Wally's playoff stats: 13.4 ppg, 1.8 apg, 4.5 rpg, .465 FG%
> Dude, put down the pipe if you think DeVean is better than Wally :dead:


Well, I don't know if he's been a flop. Certainly not as badly as Wally flops when he plays the Lakers. George's market value was more than 6 million when he re-signed with the Lakers, for a bit less than that. For a low 1st rounder, thats not bad after four years in the league. And sure, many do not know who he is when he is a reserve on a team with Shaq and Kobe. Do you know who Micheal Thompson and Michael Cooper are? Reserves turned starters on the showtime Lakers. And why should he be averaging 10ppg when he was coming off the bench? Plus they have 2 of the top 5 highest scorers on the team already. He doesn't get enough touches to do that consistently. And, nice try, but check you numbers my friend. He gets worse numbers in the playoffs because he gets 2/3 his normal minutes. (Jstempi putting down the pipe...whatever that means  ) Check the stats again, head-to-head in last year's playoffs with George starting against Wally. George wins. Besides, Wally's defense compared to George's, hehe. By the way, I noticed you did not refute any of my claims about how bad Wally gets when he plays the Lakers, instead you attacked George's name recognition...weak debating strategy my friend.  



> As far as Shaq is concerened, I think you just wanted to rant for the sake of ranting. Once again, it's clear that he will dominate. I'll type "dominate" how I see fit. The word itself means to rule and control. What more do you need!? You just need to calm down. :laugh:


You are right about the ranting. Please forgive me.:grinning: :grinning:


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kaniffmn</b>!
> who's deavan george?


He is an NBA player on the Lakers. Why are you in the NBA forums if you don't know who plays in the league?

And regarding you signature...it is because of the sport's culture. Every sport has it's own. Why don't NBA fans jump out of the stands and trample over eachother (killing dozens) like in soccer? That would be interesting.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

So Portland is an easy sitch that provides no promise of winning at all?

Malone could've helped healthy NO win the East. He could've perhaps tuaght them some health tips to avoid injury.

He's already a HOF lock like Barkley and Ewing.

If he wants to sneak in the Laker's payroll for cheap and try for a ring while supporting Shaq and the other stars, along with players nobody will know if they didn't see the title run, he's open to criticism. May Kobegate shake things up.


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## luciano (Aug 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jstempi</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Sure, we can look at last years playoff stats, or we can look at the two player's respective careers objectively and compare- and we all know they are not even close. Wally is a much better player than Devean and you know it, so why not just admit it. That was the whole point of my statement, but you just cannot bring yourself to admitting it.

try this link........... http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51417

BTW- attempting to undermine my credibility/intelligence doesn't really add to your post in any way.


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>luciano</b>!
> 
> Sure, we can look at last years playoff stats, or we can look at the two player's respective careers objectively and compare- and we all know they are not even close. Wally is a much better player than Devean and you know it, so why not just admit it. That was the whole point of my statement, but you just cannot bring yourself to admitting it.
> 
> ...


I have no problem admitting that Wally is better than George overall. Their career stats thus far clearly indicate this. However, you clearly have lost the point of this discussion. We were talking Laker starters vs. Wolves starters. This is why I use last year's playoff stats when George played Wally head-to-head...for all other stats Rick Fox started for the Lakers against Wally. 

So get over it, the Lakers have the advantage at that position too.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> The Lakers dont double team KG, Phil's chioce, so KG will score but Wally will dissapear as usual when they play the Lakers.


You have got to be kidding me. The Lakers don't double up KG? The Lakers don't deny KG the ball. They don't double him if he fades away. The minute he looks like he's making a move to the basket, he's got 3 Lakers on him. Absolutely uneducated.


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## luciano (Aug 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jstempi</b>!
> 
> 
> So get over it, the Lakers have the advantage at that position too.


No, you're missing the point, the Lakers do not have the advantage here, so get over it.


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>luciano</b>!
> 
> 
> No, you're missing the point, the Lakers do not have the advantage here, so get over it.



Nice cop-out response. You are clearly missing the point because you cannot refute my argument that George performed better than Wally when they went head to head. So you are wrong.


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> You have got to be kidding me. The Lakers don't double up KG? The Lakers don't deny KG the ball. They don't double him if he fades away. The minute he looks like he's making a move to the basket, he's got 3 Lakers on him. Absolutely uneducated.


There is a difference between double teaming and sending help when KG breaks down the defense or gets past his defender. Duh. The whole point of this discussion was head-to-head matchups. Phil is not going to keep two men on KG at all times like many teams do. And the Wolves may not be one of those, but they will surely be having to send help more often than the Lakers will have to send help on Wolves.


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> So Portland is an easy sitch that provides no promise of winning at all?
> 
> Malone could've helped healthy NO win the East. He could've perhaps tuaght them some health tips to avoid injury.
> ...



GP want's a ring and Gp knew that there was 100 times the risk that he would'nt get one if he went to Portland than if he went to LA. Malone doesn't want to teach people, he wants a ring and the scoring title, and LA gave him the best shot at both. Sure anyone is open to criticism, but if it's unfounded like your's than dont cry when I disagree with you.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jstempi</b>!
> 
> 
> There is a difference between double teaming and sending help when KG breaks down the defense or gets past his defender. Duh. The whole point of this discussion was head-to-head matchups. Phil is not going to keep two men on KG at all times like many teams do. And the Wolves may not be one of those, but they will surely be having to send help more often than the Lakers will have to send help on Wolves.


ANY time KG got the ball with his back to the basket, there was a help defender heading his way. Many times the double-teamer would hassle Garnett so he had less space to turn and face the basket. 

The Lakers DO double Garnett. Constantly. To say otherwise is ridiculous.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

That's great.

Stupid Jordan and Hakeem. I want a RING! With the LAKERS! Only LAKERS MATTER! GO LAKERS!

Actually, it was founded. I had a private session with KM and GP.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

All Right, back on topic…
The Lakers and the Wolves, IMO, are the TWO most exciting and intriguing teams in the NBA right now.
On paper, these teams are stacked (and I mean STACKED!). Can you remeber the last time a team had FOUR players able to give you a 30+ pts game any given night (Olowokandi and George obviously excluded!)?
If it all works well for these teams, (team chemistry and no injuries), they can very well be playing the WCF (and you KNOW this means the Championship!)

HEAD-TO-HEAD:
PG- Payton vs Cassell: Edge Lakers
The Glove’s defense is nowhere near it´s prime, and Cassell is a terrific scorer and team leader, but Payton gets the nod for his ability to orchestrate the offense and setting up his players.

SG- Kobe vs Spreewell: Edge: Lakers
If Kobe´s mind is on basketball and not in his legal issues, the guy is to much for Spreewell to handle. Sure Latrell should be a better defender this year, not being asked to create and score, but Kobe? Nah… he can´t take him.

SF- George vs Wally: Edge: Wolves
Wally is a great shooter; George can´t score. Wally will have more freedom and open looks, and George won´t be able to stop him. If Fox starts later in the season, he would make wally´s job more difficult, but the edge would still go to the Wolves.

PF- Malone vs KG. Edge: Wolves.
Malone will get his points against KG, because the Big Ticket will surely be the weak-side defender on Shaq, and Malone is deadly in his jump shot. On the other hand, KG will give Malone fits on offense. Malone won´t stop KG.

C- Shaq vs Kandiman. Edge: Lakers.
I refuse to elaborate!!! 

Bench, Coach and intangibles: Edge: Lakers.
The Lakers are veterans, savy championship-proven players. Jackson is an old fox. The Wolves are a underachieving, unproven team. No dispute here.

Bottom line: The Lakers should win this battle. 
The Key: The Big Toe: if Shaq is in shape and willing (and that´s a big IF…), the Wolves would have no answer. Olowokandi won´t make it past 3 quarters against Shaq.


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## luciano (Aug 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jstempi</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> So get over it, the Lakers have the advantage at that position too.





> Nice cop-out response.


 I just mimiced you really, so don't you think you're being a tad hypocritical?


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## kaniffmn (Jul 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jstempi</b>!
> 
> 
> He is an NBA player on the Lakers. Why are you in the NBA forums if you don't know who plays in the league?


Oh i know who deavan george is...that was the whole point i was trying to get across. he is a terrible player who got lucky to be drafted by the lakers, otherwise, i seriously don't know that he would be in the league right now. forget all that crap about what he's done against wally. what has he done in an 82-game season that just screams out that he's a decent player. he's nothing. he's not even a starter. i hope he starts this year because he was making his living off playing against the second stringers. when he starts against pippen, bonzi, rashard lewis, peja, dirk or jamison, mashburn, hell even bowen and the new found glory of miami dwayne wade and butler. there are too many talented guys out there playing small forward, his numbers are more likely to stay the same but his field goal percentage is going to drop...BIG TIME. i guess you'll just have to wait to find that out though.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

I'd take George on the Wolves. A great energy guy off the bench who can play some serious D. We need a backup wing right now anyways. 

He's not a starter, though...


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> All Right, back on topic…
> The Lakers and the Wolves, IMO, are the TWO most exciting and intriguing teams in the NBA right now.
> On paper, these teams are stacked (and I mean STACKED!). Can you remeber the last time a team had FOUR players able to give you a 30+ pts game any given night (Olowokandi and George obviously excluded!)?
> ...


You're pretty much right. Both teams still have some issues. MN and LA could both have chemistry issues with egos/sharing shots. Minnesota needs a bench (could sign JJ and Trent very soon), and LA needs Kobe Bryant. 

In short, both of these teams look like contenders, but they certainly can't be considered the favorites yet. The pieces have to fit before we can put any of the "big five" above another.


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>luciano</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I just mimiced you really, so don't you think you're being a tad hypocritical?



The difference is that I backed up my statements with stats/facts but you have nothing to back up your claims so you resorted to this cop-out. Very sad. Please don't join any debate teams. Just stay on internet forums where you can post fluff statements without backing it up with anything.


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kaniffmn</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh i know who deavan george is...that was the whole point i was trying to get across. he is a terrible player who got lucky to be drafted by the lakers, otherwise, i seriously don't know that he would be in the league right now. forget all that crap about what he's done against wally. what has he done in an 82-game season that just screams out that he's a decent player. he's nothing. he's not even a starter. i hope he starts this year because he was making his living off playing against the second stringers. when he starts against pippen, bonzi, rashard lewis, peja, dirk or jamison, mashburn, hell even bowen and the new found glory of miami dwayne wade and butler. there are too many talented guys out there playing small forward, his numbers are more likely to stay the same but his field goal percentage is going to drop...BIG TIME. i guess you'll just have to wait to find that out though.


Oh I knew you did. And don't be rediculous, George is not that bad. Sure he's no all-star but his scoreing average is better than any of the Wolves bench players. Plus, many teams wanted him and were offering more money when he decided to stay with the Lakers...he could easily be a starter for many teams in the league.

I realize you want everyone to forget the "crap" he did agaist Wally, because it proves that you are wrong...you cant just throw out stats because you dont like them. And George played 23 minutes a game, a little less than the Laker's starter, so not all of that could have been against the opposition's bench. Besides, this discussion is about the Laker's potential starting five vs. the Wolves'. And when George started against Wally, George had the edge. And thats the facts.

How can you say his FG% will drop, George will be wide open sooooo many times this year with everyone helping on Shaq, Kobe, malone and GP. Your argument there is simply unfounded.


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## kaniffmn (Jul 29, 2003)

you are only looking at the playoff stats for 6 games last year. there are many more ways we could look at it and wally would win every other time. college stats, league stats, it doesn't matter. you're basing your opinion off of a 6 game series and we are merely trying to base ours of a full time starter vs. bench player, former nba all star vs. former d-3 all star. i realize he didn't play very well in the playoffs and deavan played on cloud nine for the games against the wolves. but where was he when they played san antonio? in a market where he was amongst the best available small forwards available is just terrible. of course teams were offering him more if he is rated as one of the top small forwards in a very very weak pool of small forward free agents. as for the starters, payton and cassell are idle, spree is beat by kobe until playoff time when kobe won't be able to play because he'll be behind bars, then spree will ultimately win that matchup, and wally beats george in a landslide, kg over malone, and shaq...i'm not even gonna go there. everyone knows shaq is the most dominant player in the post. as for bench...i guess you forgot we have t-hud coming off and he is better than anybody on the lakers bench. then we will have jim jackson and hoiberg to round out our backcourt subs, and the front court will slide between ervin johnson, gary trent, mad-dog, and ebi. to the lakers...rick fox, pargo, brian cook, rush, medvendenko or whatever the hell his name is...you can't even compare the bench to ours. phil over flip is obvious. although flip is seriously under-rated as a coach. i'm more worried about the mavericks then your lakers with all the intangibles you are talking about. shaq's toe...kobe, shaq, payton, and malone fighting over the ball, malone trying to go for that record, and he won't get it this year in LA, that's a guarantee, kobe getting ready to go to jail and be somebody's be-otch. the west is too strong for us to just talk about the lakers anyway. the spurs and mavs are in our division and we should not overlook those teams. not to mention the likes of the kings, and potential playoff teams: houston, portland, and seattle.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jstempi</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh I knew you did. And don't be rediculous, George is not that bad. Sure he's no all-star but his scoreing average is better than any of the Wolves bench players. .


Ever heard of Troy Hudson? And if you are talking about last season - Kendall Gill, Joe Smith, and Anthony Peeler all averaged more points per game than Devean George.

Are you serious with this stuff? You come on our board talking crap, telling Minnesota fans how you think they should debate, and you don't even have the basic knowledge you need to carry on a decent debate that involves our team!

Unbelievable...


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kaniffmn</b>!
> you are only looking at the playoff stats for 6 games last year. there are many more ways we could look at it and wally would win every other time. college stats, league stats, it doesn't matter. you're basing your opinion off of a 6 game series and we are merely trying to base ours of a full time starter vs. bench player, former nba all star vs. former d-3 all star. i realize he didn't play very well in the playoffs and deavan played on cloud nine for the games against the wolves. but where was he when they played san antonio? in a market where he was amongst the best available small forwards available is just terrible. of course teams were offering him more if he is rated as one of the top small forwards in a very very weak pool of small forward free agents. as for the starters, payton and cassell are idle, spree is beat by kobe until playoff time when kobe won't be able to play because he'll be behind bars, then spree will ultimately win that matchup, and wally beats george in a landslide, kg over malone, and shaq...i'm not even gonna go there. everyone knows shaq is the most dominant player in the post. as for bench...i guess you forgot we have t-hud coming off and he is better than anybody on the lakers bench. then we will have jim jackson and hoiberg to round out our backcourt subs, and the front court will slide between ervin johnson, gary trent, mad-dog, and ebi. to the lakers...rick fox, pargo, brian cook, rush, medvendenko or whatever the hell his name is...you can't even compare the bench to ours. phil over flip is obvious. although flip is seriously under-rated as a coach. i'm more worried about the mavericks then your lakers with all the intangibles you are talking about. shaq's toe...kobe, shaq, payton, and malone fighting over the ball, malone trying to go for that record, and he won't get it this year in LA, that's a guarantee, kobe getting ready to go to jail and be somebody's be-otch. the west is too strong for us to just talk about the lakers anyway. the spurs and mavs are in our division and we should not overlook those teams. not to mention the likes of the kings, and potential playoff teams: houston, portland, and seattle.


First of all I'd like to introduce you to my friend, his name is Mr. Paragraph.

Secondly, how hard is it to understand? This thread is about comparing the starting 5 head-to-head!!!!! George and Wally have only started head-to-head those few times during the playoffs. That is why I use those stats...because they are the best indication of what will happen when they play eachother this year. Any other stats are useless!!!! If you can come up with something better lets hear it...but I don't want to hear what Wally averaged against all the other players in the league because we are only concerned with what Wally can do against George. So Wally vs. George is no landslide.

And finally, we are not argueing bench in this thread. If you want to do so start a new thread. I agree the Wolves bench is clearly better, but how much has that helped the Kings and the Mavs in recent years? It's not a huge issue until an injury occurs, and if that happens...well...look what happened to the Kings (CWeb), Mavs (Dirk) and the Lakers (Fox, George, and Kobe's shoulder). Its tough to win no matter how deep you are if one of your best players gets injured. 

Oh, and by the way, we are'nt just talking about the Lakers. In case you haven't noticed we are comparing the Lakers and the Wolves. Welcome to the discussion.


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> Ever heard of Troy Hudson? And if you are talking about last season - Kendall Gill, Joe Smith, and Anthony Peeler all averaged more points per game than Devean George.
> ...


Forgive me, an honest mistake. I forgot Troy will be coming off the bench. I misspoke on that one, good catch. So he's better than ALL BUT ONE of your new bench. The Laker's starting 5 still beat the Wolves' 3 to 2 (with Wally-George and Cassel-GP evenly matched). And KG wont nearly dominate Malone like Shaq will dominate Kandi. KG will beat Malone at the same level that Kobe will beat Sprewell. So those matchups will balance eachother out and the difference in the game will be the output of Shaq vs. Kandi. 

You still cannot refute that he at least matches Wally head-to-head, which was the whole point of this thread...all you can do is pick at the little things in my arguments (i.e., the definition of double-team and a stat mistake) but you cant refute the main points. Lets see you try to do that with ant reasonableness!!!


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jstempi</b>!
> And KG wont nearly dominate Malone like Shaq will dominate Kandi. KG will beat Malone at the same level that Kobe will beat Sprewell. So those matchups will balance eachother out and the difference in the game will be the output of Shaq vs. Kandi.


IF Shaq is healthy, and IF Kobe isn't stuck in Colorado. Those are two big IF's bud. 



> You still cannot refute that he at least matches Wally head-to-head, which was the whole point of this thread
> all you can do is pick at the little things in my arguments (i.e., the definition of double-team and a stat mistake) but you cant refute the main points. Lets see you try to do that with ant reasonableness!!!


I sure can refute your main points. I've already done it on the Szczerbiak vs George thread in the general NBA forum, which you haven't gotten involved with for some reason. As for you being blatantly wrong about George's scoring average being a "little" part of your argument - that's total bunk. Your "stat mistake" shows how little you acutally know about the Timberwolves, and reveals the true basis of your argument - homeristic trolling. 

Anyways...

George had one good playoff series against Wally, and all of a sudden he matches him? I don't think so! Troy Hudson averaged 24 per game last year on the Lakers in the first round. Does this mean the PG matchup should be considered a wash? 
'
Wally missed a few open jumpers that George had nothing to do with. If Wally hits even a couple more threes, you can't even come close to arguing this! The fact of the matter is that George had a lot more help last year, and Wally was having to force things, which his game simply isn't designed to do. 

Cassell and Spree are going to open things up a lot for Wally, and George is not going to stand a better chance than anybody else when Szczerbiak is nailing open jumpers. Wally had a bad series, but the Wally vs George comparison is a joke. End of story


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## kaniffmn (Jul 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> Cassell and Spree are going to open things up a lot for Wally, and George is not going to stand a better chance than anybody else when Szczerbiak is nailing open jumpers. Wally had a bad series, but the Wally vs George comparison is a joke. End of story


you took the words right outta my mouth.


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## luciano (Aug 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kaniffmn</b>!
> 
> 
> you took the words right outta my mouth.


exactly.

JS, if want facts take a look at that George vs. Wally thread I started in the NBA forum. Everyone except yourself and other biased Laker fans agree Wally is the better player and will win that matchup, so stop pretending I am not delivering facts and or evidence to support what I am saying.

I am a hornets fan, and have no bias toward either the Wolves or the Lakers, and I see Wally is clearly the better player and would win that matchup. Hear that? UNBIASED- much like the other 80% or so people who agreed with me on the poll.

Cop out that!


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> IF Shaq is healthy, and IF Kobe isn't stuck in Colorado. Those are two big IF's bud.


Poor argument, very sad. Even an unhealthy Shaq would dominate Kandi and you know very well that this year's Shaq cant get any worse than last. And I don’t think the Colorado courts will schedule the hearings on the exact days that the Lakers play the Wolves…everyone knows the actual trial won begin until or after playoff time. Nice try though…not.



> I sure can refute your main points. I've already done it on the Szczerbiak vs George thread in the general NBA forum, which you haven't gotten involved with for some reason. As for you being blatantly wrong about George's scoring average being a "little" part of your argument - that's total bunk. Your "stat mistake" shows how little you acutally know about the Timberwolves, and reveals the true basis of your argument - homeristic trolling.


You have proven by this that you cannot refute my claims. I have said that Wally is the better overall player. My point in this thread however is that head-to-head George has done better than Wally. You still have not refuted this point, which is the whole point of my arguments. And I have not been involved in that thread because I have not seen it. I don’t have all day to spend in here so I have been focusing on this and another thread in the Portland forum regarding Shaq. Since you mentioned it, I looked at the thread and it is a different argument than this debate. Of course Wally is better overall…but as I have said 100 times (but you still cant seem to understand)…head-to-head George beats Wally. Also nice try about my mistake about Troy coming off the bench, at least I have a clue about what this discussion is even about…since you don’t, clearly you are the one trolling. And please, the use of “homeristic” is widely used, at least attempt to come up with your own way to bash someone. 



> George had one good playoff series against Wally, and all of a sudden he matches him? I don't think so! Troy Hudson averaged 24 per game last year on the Lakers in the first round. Does this mean the PG matchup should be considered a wash?


This is the first decent argument about my stats on Wally head-to-head against George (except for the Troy part-Troy has nothing to do with the Wally-George debate). However, that being said, that playoff series is the only head-to-head matchup stats that we have to form and opinion on the matchup. The PG matchup we were discussing was Peyton-Cassel being a wash (please at least try to follow the conversation). Troy put those numbers up on Fisher last year so your argument has nothing to do with this discussion.



> Wally missed a few open jumpers that George had nothing to do with. If Wally hits even a couple more threes, you can't even come close to arguing this! The fact of the matter is that George had a lot more help last year, and Wally was having to force things, which his game simply isn't designed to do.


If, if, if. Signs of failure! And George didn’t have more help last year. The Lakers’ defense sucked. This year looks to be better with GP and Malone who are certainly better on D than Fish and Mad-dog. This Laker defense mistake shows how little you acutally know about the Lakers and reveals the true basis of your argument - homeristic trolling.
 




> Cassell and Spree are going to open things up a lot for Wally, and George is not going to stand a better chance than anybody else when Szczerbiak is nailing open jumpers. Wally had a bad series, but the Wally vs George comparison is a joke. End of story


*Reopening story* Blaming it on a bad serious is a cop out and any athlete knows that. Nice try. Malone and GP’s defense will allow George to focus on Wally and not have to help so much on KG and Cassell/Hudson. So George will continue to shut down Wally and Wally’s poor defense will still allow George to get his points (which were more than Wally during that playoff series). End of story.


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>luciano</b>!
> 
> exactly.
> 
> ...


Oh please, pay attention. That thread is about who is the better overall player. Of course most people pick Wally...I would (except that he has too big of a contract). I didn't notice the thread before because I am a busy guy and have focussed my time on this and one other thread until those discussions die. If I find time I'll chime in but only to say that head-to-head I'd bet on George, but if I was picking in a fantasy L or was an owner I'd pick Wally (if I had the money waste on his contract). Please, pay attention to what my points are and then I may not sound so ridiculous. Of course I'd take Wally over George, but not head-to-head (103rd time I have said this). I presented my facts on the head-to-head matchup but you continue to not be able to present anything to intelligently refute them.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jstempi</b>!
> *Reopening story* Blaming it on a bad serious is a cop out and any athlete knows that.


So players don't perform below their norm from time to time? You can't be serious....



> > So George will continue to shut down Wally and Wally’s poor defense will still allow George to get his points (which were more than Wally during that playoff series). End of story.
> 
> 
> Get off our board. You come here and talk crap, shift your argument every time you get backed into a corner. And you are just plain IGNORANT when it comes to the facts.
> ...


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> So players don't perform below their norm from time to time? You can't be serious....
> 
> ...


Yes they sometimes play below their norm, but Wally did for several games in a row. That shows the Lakers found a way to shut him down...Fox and George's D. 

The rest of your comments just show that you cannot refute my assertions. You still cant admit the FACT that head-to-head George scored more than Wally when the both started, its right there in the box scores. Those averages you quoted included when George was coming off the bench when Fox was starting. I have said this 902 times now and you cant refute it, hence George wins the matchup head-to-head.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jstempi</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes they sometimes play below their norm, but Wally did for several games in a row. That shows the Lakers found a way to shut him down...Fox and George's D.


You have absolutely no understanding of the game of basketball if you think George or Fox shut Wally Szczerbiak down. They stopped Wally's penetration, and with that they needed help. Furthermore, they denied him the ball. When he did get the ball, they dared him to hit outside shots, and he couldn't hit the outside shot the way he normally has. When Wally starts knocking down that shot, they will be forced to come out on him, and won't be able to stop the penetration. I doubt you can comprehend this, but for some reason I'm typing regardless. 




> The rest of your comments just show that you cannot refute my assertions. You still cant admit the FACT that head-to-head George scored more than Wally when the both started, its right there in the box scores.


Show me these box scores that indicate how Wally did George was explicity guarding him. The last time I checked, the box scores only showed the players' per game totals. There's specific about Wally vs George in them, and you know it. Wally averaged 42 minutes per game, and George averaged around 33. Therefore, Wally still holds a slight advantage when it comes to /48 minute scoring. 

The only way to come to the conclusion you are coming to is to watch the game. And you know so little about the actual games that were played that you thought Kevin Garnett wasn't even being double-teamed! you also didn't realize that Wally DID outscore george for the series, and you forgot that Hudson is even on the team. How the heck are you going to tell everybody that George outscored Wally head-to-head? 



> Those averages you quoted included when George was coming off the bench when Fox was starting. I have said this 902 times now and you cant refute it, hence George wins the matchup head-to-head.


How do you expect anybody to buy the garbage that you're typing? 



> Wally’s poor defense will still allow George to get his points (which were more than Wally during that playoff series


This quote says nothing about Fox. Only that George outscored Wally. If you wanted to add in Fox, you would have mentioned him. This is just another example of you getting out-debated and trying to switch the argument. 

As for this new argument about Fox, did it EVER occur to you that Wally has a backup as well?


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> You have absolutely no understanding of the game of basketball if you think George or Fox shut Wally Szczerbiak down. They stopped Wally's penetration, and with that they needed help. Furthermore, they denied him the ball. When he did get the ball, they dared him to hit outside shots, and he couldn't hit the outside shot the way he normally has. When Wally starts knocking down that shot, they will be forced to come out on him, and won't be able to stop the penetration. I doubt you can comprehend this, but for some reason I'm typing regardless.


LOL, all you are doing is supporting my point that they shut him down. If he made this shot, if he made that shot…get over it, he didn’t make it and George gets the credit for that whether you like it or not.

Oh, and nice try at bagging, it needs some work. Hey maybe you can use your own material instead of copying me. 



> Show me these box scores that indicate how Wally did George was explicity guarding him. The last time I checked, the box scores only showed the players' per game totals. There's specific about Wally vs George in them, and you know it. Wally averaged 42 minutes per game, and George averaged around 33. Therefore, Wally still holds a slight advantage when it comes to /48 minute scoring.


Well, I did some research for you. For the games they both started Wally averaged 13.8 minutes per 48 minutes and George averaged 15.8 points per 48 minutes…so you are wrong in that regard. For all games combined during that series Wally averaged 16.6 points per 48 minutes (well under his average) and George averaged 15.0 points per 48 minutes, but George pulled down more rebounds in addition to being better on D.



> The only way to come to the conclusion you are coming to is to watch the game. And you know so little about the actual games that were played that you thought Kevin Garnett wasn't even being double-teamed! you also didn't realize that Wally DID outscore george for the series, and you forgot that Hudson is even on the team. How the heck are you going to tell everybody that George outscored Wally head-to-head?


Oh, get over it. When I said double team, I meant having 2 players on him constantly. The Wolves do this to Shaq but the Lakers do not do this to KG. They just send help when he penetrates and infrequently when he posts up. I knew wally outscored George for the series, this is simply a lie – show me where I said this. I said he outscored him on average for the games they started against eachother. And also, I didn’t forget Troy was on the team…apparently you cannot comprehend the conversations that have been going on. I said I forgot he was coming off the bench. 



> This quote says nothing about Fox. Only that George outscored Wally. If you wanted to add in Fox, you would have mentioned him. This is just another example of you getting out-debated and trying to switch the argument.
> 
> As for this new argument about Fox, did it EVER occur to you that Wally has a backup as well?


For the 905th time I was referring to Wally vs. George head-to-head, both starting. Please get this into your brain somehow. All I said was that the averages you quoted included Fox starting. Let me spell it out for you. My stats do not include anything Fox contributed. The information you used included Fox in the equation, therefore your stats are no good for this debate. So apparently you are being out debated so badly that you have no idea what we are even talking about. :laugh: Very sad.
:no:


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## luciano (Aug 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jstempi</b>!
> 
> 
> That thread is about who is the better overall player. Of course most people pick Wally...I would (except that he has too big of a contract).


The thread says on the very first post to ignore financial and attitude issues, so it is 100% an objective assessment of the player's respective games.



> Of course I'd take Wally over George, but not head-to-head (103rd time I have said this).


 I just want you to explain why the better player will lose the matchup in your opinion. To me, the 'better' player will outplay the lesser player- afterall that is why he is better. Well that's my opinion anyway.

Can you please justify why you believe this and I'll leave it at that and we will just have to agree to disagree!  

PS- js I am sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way and what-not, but I think we may have just had a misunderstanding! I realise you are an intelligent poster, and you just disagree with my thoughts/opinions- and of course there is nothing wrong with that!


TRUCE? 

Peace


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>luciano</b>!
> 
> The thread says on the very first post to ignore financial and attitude issues, so it is 100% an objective assessment of the player's respective games.
> 
> ...


Yes, truce. I am trying to be less arrogant and antagonistic in my posts now, so we can have good conversations. It will be hard though the next time i see someone say GP and Malone are selling out or that the lakers will suck this year because Kobe will be in jail...I loved ripping those children a new one....alas.

As for the explanation you asked for, sometimes star players seem to have trouble with a few mediocre ones...especially the mediocre ones good on defense. For example, Bowen did a good job on Kobe last year, and a few other good defenders (yet mediocre players) were able to shut down Kobe to a degree(i.e., the self-proclaimed Kobe stoppers). Similar to this George was able to limit Wally to a little below his average ppg during those games in the playoffs and George performed much better than normal (likely because he started instead of coming off the bench).

I have more stats for you. Wally was injured the first two regular sean games. So the stats are for the remaining 2 season games and the 6 playoff games.

Wally's stats:

season avg 14.50 5.00 2.20 42.00 


avg over all 8 games 13.75 6.00 2.75 41.13 

avg when both starting 11.50 5.50 3.50 40.00 

48 min when both starting 13.80 6.60 4.20 48.00 

48 min avg over all 8 games 16.05 7.00 3.21 48.00 


George's Stats:

season avg 6.90 3.00 0.90 22.70 


avg over all 8 games 7.75 5.00 2.25 26.75 

avg when both starting 12.00 8.00 5.50 36.50 

48 min when both starting 15.78 10.52 7.23 48.00 

48 min over all 8 games 13.91 8.97 4.04 48.00 

Plus, based on the season averages, wally scores 2 more points and gets 1/2 more assists per 48 minutes, but gets 1/2 less rebounds than George. Plus I think George's intangibles are a little better than Wally's. These stats almost convice me that I'd take George over Wally overall as a starter, not just head-to-head.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Also nice try about my mistake about Troy coming off the bench, at least I have a clue about what this discussion is even about…since you don’t, clearly you are the one trolling. And please, the use of “homeristic” is widely used, at least attempt to come up with your own way to bash someone.


I am trolling my own board? Now I've heard it all from you. I'm not being a homer in the least bit. There isn't a non-Laker fan out there who wouldn't trade George for Wally in a heartbeat. You are the one invading another team's board and spamming it with viewpoints that only a Laker fan could hold. 



> If, if, if. Signs of failure! And George didn’t have more help last year. The Lakers’ defense sucked.


George DID have help. You think that because LA's defense was bad last year that they didn't give extra attention to Wally putting the ball on the floor? If you honestly believe this, there is no doubt in my mind that you didn't even watch the series. 



> This year looks to be better with GP and Malone who are certainly better on D than Fish and Mad-dog. This Laker defense mistake shows how little you acutally know about the Lakers and reveals the true basis of your argument - homeristic trolling.


My mistake about what? That the Wolves added 2 guards who can penetrate on anybody, when they had none last year? Nah, that wouldn't help an outside shooter get more open shots...Nothing I have said on this thread has been factually incorrect. That's 3 for you, 0 for me. 



> If he made this shot, if he made that shot…get over it, he didn’t make it and George gets the credit for that whether you like it or not.


You need to learn that just because you say something, that doesn't mean it's true. In my opinion, George gets credit for playing Wally even AT BEST (when Wally's shot was off - not anything to do with George on that) and he was getting help every time Szczerbiak tried to penetrate. YOU don't just get decide who gets credit for what. You have to provide a bit of evidence, which you haven't done to the least degree. 



> Oh, get over it. When I said double team, I meant having 2 players on him constantly. The Wolves do this to Shaq but the Lakers do not do this to KG. They just send help when he penetrates and infrequently when he posts up. I knew wally outscored George for the series, this is simply a lie – show me where I said this. I said he outscored him on average for the games they started against eachother.


Kevin Garnett was double-teamed every chance the Lakers got. This is a fact. The only difference is that the Wolves have to try and deny Shaq the ball. This is because he plays so close to the basket. KG doesn't, so the Lakers don't have to deny KG the ball. Nevertheless, KG was still constantly double-teamed every time he attempted to move with the ball. 

If you don't think he was double-teamd, you didn't watch the games, or are so blinded by your homerism and the need to be right that you've lost the ability to concede anything, no matter the statement. The sky is blue, not purple. 



> Well, I did some research for you. For the games they both started Wally averaged 13.8 minutes per 48 minutes and George averaged 15.8 points per 48 minutes…so you are wrong in that regard. For all games combined during that series Wally averaged 16.6 points per 48 minutes (well under his average) and George averaged 15.0 points per 48 minutes, but George pulled down more rebounds in addition to being better on D.


This is ridiculous. You did some research, and found out I was exactly right. Wally did slightly outscore George in the series, and I did the exact same research - I told you about it in the very quote you were replying to! Your shifting numbers around does nothing to change the truth. 



> I knew wally outscored George for the series, this is simply a lie – show me where I said this. I said he outscored him on average for the games they started against eachother.



You're just pulling words out of your butt, now. READ YOUR OWN WORDS: 



> So George will continue to shut down Wally and Wally’s poor defense will still allow George to get his points (which were more than Wally during that playoff series). End of story.


It doesn't get more clear cut than that. There's nothing about games in which they started against each other anywhere near this quote.

And you have the nerve to call me a liar? 

Once again, the quote: 



> So George will continue to shut down Wally and Wally’s poor defense will still allow George to get his points (which were more than Wally during that playoff series). End of story.


The fact is that you like George in this matchup because George is a Laker. If we offered the Lakers Wally for George tomarrow, you would be overjoyed, and start spamming Spurs and Kings boards about how Wally is an all-star.


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

First let me say that I have promised a few people and mods that I will tone down he negativity in my posts, and I intend to keep that promise. So I will attempt to have a cordial discussion here with you and I hope you will respond in a similar manner.



> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> I am trolling my own board? Now I've heard it all from you. I'm not being a homer in the least bit. There isn't a non-Laker fan out there who wouldn't trade George for Wally in a heartbeat. You are the one invading another team's board and spamming it with viewpoints that only a Laker fan could hold.


Now do you see how lame it is to tell people they are trolling? This is not your board, it is everyone's. Just because you are a Twolve fan doesn't make this your board. Maybe now you have learned a little lesson. 

Sure non-Laker fans would trade George for Wally...because they don't have George. George is valuable because he knows his role on this team. He could have gone to some other team when he was a free agent and could have done just as well as Wally. Look at the stats I told you, based on the season averages, wally scores 2 more points and gets 1/2 more assists per 48 minutes, but gets 1/2 less rebounds than George. Plus I think George's D and other intangibles are a little better than Wally's. 

If the Lakers took that imagined Wally trade, it would be bad because:

1. He would be a 4th or 5th option on our new starting team.
2. He would put the Lakers is worse salary situation
3. We would be worse defensively which is what we need at that spot (thats why we start Fox over George in the first place.)

Of course other take the trade because of the name recognition. Nobody knows George because he's been on a team with Shaq and Kobe. But they know Wally because the only huge name on his team is KG. 



> George DID have help. You think that because LA's defense was bad last year that they didn't give extra attention to Wally putting the ball on the floor? If you honestly believe this, there is no doubt in my mind that you didn't even watch the series.


I'm not arguing that he didn't have help...of course he did. Thats what you do when he penetrates. But this wasn't the argument. The discussion was about this year's starting five and you said George had a lot more help last year. It's just not true, George will have a lot better defensers backing him up this year if Wally gets by.




> My mistake about what? That the Wolves added 2 guards who can penetrate on anybody, when they had none last year? Nah, that wouldn't help an outside shooter get more open shots...Nothing I have said on this thread has been factually incorrect. That's 3 for you, 0 for me.


Your mistake was not knowing the Lakers defense will be better this year, it is rather obvious. Last year it was Fisher and Madsen, this year it will be Malone and the Glove. Yes you added decent guards, but we added the Glove who can contain them better than anyone in the league. My count on mistakes now is 1 for you and 1 for me. My only mistake was not putting Hudson on the bench in my excel spreadsheet when I was looking at the stats.



> You need to learn that just because you say something, that doesn't mean it's true. In my opinion, George gets credit for playing Wally even AT BEST (when Wally's shot was off - not anything to do with George on that) and he was getting help every time Szczerbiak tried to penetrate. YOU don't just get decide who gets credit for what. You have to provide a bit of evidence, which you haven't done to the least degree.


LOL, George and the Laker defense get credit for limiting Wally, whether you like it or not. His shot could have been off because George made him alter it, or because George and the help defense not allowing him to penetrate and do what he likes to do could have taken him out mentally or taken away his confidence so his shots didn't go in. When Madsen shut down Duncan that one game last season, it was because Madsen did a good job harassing him and making him alter his shot, not beause Duncan was off that game because Duncan adjusted to Madsens defense and worked him the next quarter. When George did this to Wally, Wally wasn't able to adjust.



> Kevin Garnett was double-teamed every chance the Lakers got. This is a fact. The only difference is that the Wolves have to try and deny Shaq the ball. This is because he plays so close to the basket. KG doesn't, so the Lakers don't have to deny KG the ball. Nevertheless, KG was still constantly double-teamed every time he attempted to move with the ball.


I'm sorry, but this is just wrong, there were many times, especially when Hudson was torching Fisher, when they didn't send help and let Madsen or Horry try to handle KG on his own. Last year's Lakers didn't have good enough defense to keep a double team on KG the whole time. The type of double-team I was referring to was two guys camping on Shaq, not sending help when he penetrates. I thinkg KG mill have a more difficult time using the pick and pop, which killed us, now that we have malone and GP. Plus. this year, I'm betting Phil will send even less help because of Wolve's many offensive threats.




> This is ridiculous. You did some research, and found out I was exactly right. Wally did slightly outscore George in the series, and I did the exact same research - I told you about it in the very quote you were replying to! Your shifting numbers around does nothing to change the truth.


Uhhh, no. I knew Wally scored more than George total during the series, thats because Wally started every game, George did not. This is not what we were talking about. The whole basis for my argument was that when they both started, George outscored Wally, and that is a fact!!!!! But you still have not refuted this point, you just keep avoiding it. George also wins the head-to-head starting averaged for 48 minutes.



> The fact is that you like George in this matchup because George is a Laker. If we offered the Lakers Wally for George tomarrow, you would be overjoyed, and start spamming Spurs and Kings boards about how Wally is an all-star.


You're mistaken again, I would be too busy spamming the Laker board telling them not to do it for the 3 reasons i stated above.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Now do you see how lame it is to tell people they are trolling? This is not your board, it is everyone's. Just because you are a Twolve fan doesn't make this your board. Maybe now you have learned a little lesson.


What lesson? What out of what you said would make me learn a lesson? Just because you say something doesn't mean that that something has to be true. It certainly doesn't mean that I am obliged to agree with it in any way. Do you comprehend this? 



> Sure non-Laker fans would trade George for Wally...because they don't have George. George is valuable because he knows his role on this team.


What makes you think Wally doesn't know his role? 



> He could have gone to some other team when he was a free agent and could have done just as well as Wally. Look at the stats I told you, based on the season averages, wally scores 2 more points and gets 1/2 more assists per 48 minutes, but gets 1/2 less rebounds than George.


It's not really valid to compare /48 minute stats between a guy who is the 5th option on a team with 2 of the top 5 guys on the league to a guy who is the second option and doesn't really have the type of game that allows him to create for himself in spite of extra attention. George benefits from double teams. Wally gets extra attention because of double teams.

Furthermore, George is playing 22 minutes, Wally is playing 35. There is a big difference. George gets rest, and plays against other teams' subs a lot of the time. It's really two different situaitons, especially when you consider who George has been playing with and who Wally has been playing with. 



> Of course other take the trade because of the name recognition. Nobody knows George because he's been on a team with Shaq and Kobe. But they know Wally because the only huge name on his team is KG.


Name recognition? If anything, Wally has poor name recogntion. Nobody outside of Minnesota has ever paid serious attention to the Wolves, but Wally has become a national scapegoat for the perception that his defense is terrible. People think he is overrated because he made an all-star team. On the other hand, Devean George plays for the most media-exposed team in the country. The fact that Laker fans overrun the man NBA board with misinformed, biased opions on an almost daily basis only supports this point. People definitely know who George is, and anybody outside of Minnesota who knows who Wally is probably think he is lazy and overrated. It just doesn't make sense to say that Wally has better name recognition.



> I'm not arguing that he didn't have help...of course he did. Thats what you do when he penetrates. But this wasn't the argument.


Yes, it WAS the argument.

Again, quoting you:



> And George didn’t have more help last year. The Lakers’ defense sucked.


Furthermore, you are the one that brought up last year's head-to-head playoff stats. The fact that George was consistently getting help on Wally from other Laker players and that Wolves defenders were actually sagging off George most of the series is in no way an off-topic reply. Again, you were the one who wanted to use last year's head-to-head stats, and I am telling you why those might have been skewed a bit. 




> The discussion was about this year's starting five and you said George had a lot more help last year. It's just not true, George will have a lot better defensers backing him up this year if Wally gets by.


George will have somewhat better help this season, yes. But that's not how Wally is going to get more space. George's help defense last year is going to be preoccupied with helping out on Sam and Latrell. It has nothing to do with how good GP and Malone are. It's about how they aren't going to be in as good of a position to help out. Last season, the Wolves didn't have anybody other than KG to draw defenders. This has changed, and no matter the personel upgrade of an opposing team, Wally is going to get better looks. There's just no way around this fact. 



> LOL, George and the Laker defense get credit for limiting Wally, whether you like it or not. His shot could have been off because George made him alter it, or because George and the help defense not allowing him to penetrate and do what he likes to do could have taken him out mentally or taken away his confidence so his shots didn't go in. When Madsen shut down Duncan that one game last season, it was because Madsen did a good job harassing him and making him alter his shot, not beause Duncan was off that game because Duncan adjusted to Madsens defense and worked him the next quarter. When George did this to Wally, Wally wasn't able to adjust.


This is an opinion, not fact. Whether you like it our not, Wally may just have had a bad series. George DID have a ton of help, and Wally DID miss a lot of wide open jumpers that George didn't even come close altering. There is really no way to prove one way or the other, and to say that George gets all the credit for shutting Wally down because you say so is ridiculous. I'm not blaming it all on Wally's jumper being off, but I am sure that there is a bit of truth in both arguments. 



> I'm sorry, but this is just wrong, there were many times, especially when Hudson was torching Fisher, when they didn't send help and let Madsen or Horry try to handle KG on his own.


Hudson hardly saw a double-team all series. He scored most of his points from beyond the three-point arc, where it would be foolish double up on anybody. 



> Last year's Lakers didn't have good enough defense to keep a double team on KG the whole time.


They doubled KG whenver it was realistic for them to do so. They didn't deny him the ball constantly, because there were times when he would post up on the baseline - Garnett is willing to settle for the seventeen footer, and it wouldn't make much sense to leave your man to try and block a 7-footer shooting a fadeaway, when the shot is going to be off before you get there anyways. ANY time KG put the ball on the floor or got the ball with a perimeter defender in the vicinity, he was immediately doubled. There's just no denying this. 



> he type of double-team I was referring to was two guys camping on Shaq, not sending help when he penetrates.


If your definition of a double-team is two players camping in the paint, denying the player the ball, and getting physical the minute the player makes a move, there is only one player in the entire league that gets double-teamed consistently, and you just mentioned him. 



> I thinkg KG mill have a more difficult time using the pick and pop, which killed us, now that we have malone and GP. Plus. this year, I'm betting Phil will send even less help because of Wolve's many offensive threats.


You could be right about KG getting more single coverage. It will only make him more effective. In the end, the Lakers will do the smart thing, and focus on keeping Garnett from putting the ball on the floor. The next area to focus on would stopping Sam Cassell from getting into the lane.



> Uhhh, no. I knew Wally scored more than George total during the series, thats because Wally started every game, George did not. This is not what we were talking about. The whole basis for my argument was that when they both started, George outscored Wally, and that is a fact!!!!! But you still have not refuted this point, you just keep avoiding it. George also wins the head-to-head starting averaged for 48 minutes.


George barely outscored Wally when they both started, and we are talking about a stinking 2-game sample here. How are you going to base your entire argument on a two-game sample? Furthermore, your original argument was about starting five matchups. Not just the two games that George started against Wally. The original poster made the comment that Fox may very well be starting once he is healthy. If that's the case, then your whole Devean George tangent is what's off-topic. Either way, George didn't do anything to Wally that Fox hadn't been doing earlier in the series. 



> You're mistaken again, I would be too busy spamming the Laker board telling them not to do it for the 3 reasons i stated above.


Well, at least you've finally admitted that you're a spammer. 

This is progress!


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> What lesson? What out of what you said would make me learn a lesson? Just because you say something doesn't mean that that something has to be true. It certainly doesn't mean that I am obliged to agree with it in any way. Do you comprehend this?


Sad, very sad. Read it one more time and then you might understand.



> What makes you think Wally doesn't know his role?


I didn’t say he didn’t. Do you feel the need to disagree with me so badly that you disagree with thing I haven’t even said? 



> It's not really valid to compare /48 minute stats between a guy who is the 5th option on a team with 2 of the top 5 guys on the league to a guy who is the second option and doesn't really have the type of game that allows him to create for himself in spite of extra attention. George benefits from double teams. Wally gets extra attention because of double teams.


Somewhat true, but I would also argue that because George is not the first or second option he doesn’t get the number of shots wally gets. If he did he could average even more than the 48 minute stat. And by the way, the Lakers don’t sit there and double Wally constantly, they may send help if he tries to penetrate but the Wolves do the same if George gets through.



> Furthermore, George is playing 22 minutes, Wally is playing 35. There is a big difference. George gets rest, and plays against other teams' subs a lot of the time. It's really two different situaitons, especially when you consider who George has been playing with and who Wally has been playing with.


LOL, George is our sub and did just fine against Wally, if not better than Wally did during those games. Good point though about getting rest, I guess we shall see how he does starting this year…but so many others on the Lakers will want the ball so I don’t see him breaking out this year either.



> Name recognition? If anything, Wally has poor name recogntion. Nobody outside of Minnesota has ever paid serious attention to the Wolves, but Wally has become a national scapegoat for the perception that his defense is terrible. People think he is overrated because he made an all-star team. On the other hand, Devean George plays for the most media-exposed team in the country. The fact that Laker fans overrun the man NBA board with misinformed, biased opions on an almost daily basis only supports this point. People definitely know who George is, and anybody outside of Minnesota who knows who Wally is probably think he is lazy and overrated. It just doesn't make sense to say that Wally has better name recognition.


Well, if you look at the thread you were talking about where people were discussing George vs. Wally some people didn’t even know who George is and they picked Wally over him. So your argument isn’t valid. And by the way, the laker haters misinform more than any banwagoner laker fan does. The real Laker fans that stuck with them through the 90’s are still biased but certainly do not misinform. 



> Yes, it WAS the argument.


Apparently you cannot understand, the argument wasn’t if he got help, the argument was if he got more help last year than he will this year. You might have to scroll back to see this and read the posts a few times so you can understand. Clearly he will have even more help this year with the additions the Lakers have made defensively. And you even admit this below:



> George will have somewhat better help this season, yes.





> But that's not how Wally is going to get more space. George's help defense last year is going to be preoccupied with helping out on Sam and Latrell. It has nothing to do with how good GP and Malone are. It's about how they aren't going to be in as good of a position to help out. Last season, the Wolves didn't have anybody other than KG to draw defenders. This has changed, and no matter the personel upgrade of an opposing team, Wally is going to get better looks. There's just no way around this fact.


I don’t think you even know what you are typing. First you argue with me that George was getting a ton of help on Wally and now you say KG was the only one drawing defenders. Please get your story straight. Yes, you now have Sam and Sprewell, but last year Fish was so bad we had to send help on Hudson. With GP he can handle Cassell, Kobe will be just fine on Sprewell, George on Wally…etc. When someone gets through we’ll have to send help but not as badly as when Fish was starting, so Wally will likely be in the same position as last year. 



> This is an opinion, not fact. Whether you like it our not, Wally may just have had a bad series. George DID have a ton of help, and Wally DID miss a lot of wide open jumpers that George didn't even come close altering. There is really no way to prove one way or the other, and to say that George gets all the credit for shutting Wally down because you say so is ridiculous. I'm not blaming it all on Wally's jumper being off, but I am sure that there is a bit of truth in both arguments.


Ok, I think we both are partially right on this one.



> Hudson hardly saw a double-team all series. He scored most of his points from beyond the three-point arc, where it would be foolish double up on anybody.


Ummm, I didn’t say they doubled Hudson, I said he torched Fisher so the Lakers couldn’t send Fish to help on KG or Wally.



> They doubled KG whenver it was realistic for them to do so. They didn't deny him the ball constantly, because there were times when he would post up on the baseline - Garnett is willing to settle for the seventeen footer, and it wouldn't make much sense to leave your man to try and block a 7-footer shooting a fadeaway, when the shot is going to be off before you get there anyways. ANY time KG put the ball on the floor or got the ball with a perimeter defender in the vicinity, he was immediately doubled. There's just no denying this.


Oh, see, now you are changing your story. So now you agree that it wasn’t every time. 



> If your definition of a double-team is two players camping in the paint, denying the player the ball, and getting physical the minute the player makes a move, there is only one player in the entire league that gets double-teamed consistently, and you just mentioned him.


This is not how I was defining it, I was just using the word loosely. Maybe I should have been more specific, but I figured people would understand what I was talking about.



> You could be right about KG getting more single coverage. It will only make him more effective. In the end, the Lakers will do the smart thing, and focus on keeping Garnett from putting the ball on the floor. The next area to focus on would stopping Sam Cassell from getting into the lane.


I could be right? Of course I am right!!!  And I agree with you on the KG strategy, but Kobe will do fine on Sprewell.



> George barely outscored Wally when they both started, and we are talking about a stinking 2-game sample here. How are you going to base your entire argument on a two-game sample? Furthermore, your original argument was about starting five matchups. Not just the two games that George started against Wally. The original poster made the comment that Fox may very well be starting once he is healthy. If that's the case, then your whole Devean George tangent is what's off-topic. Either way, George didn't do anything to Wally that Fox hadn't been doing earlier in the series.


Hey, but he did outscore him…and that’s the only sample we have to make a judgement, but I also provided the 48 minutes stats to support my argument. And come on, do you not know that George will be the starter for the most of the season, Fox will be out till ¾ the way through the season? Then Fox will need time to get into shape. Everyone knows George will start except you and the poster you are referring to.



> Well, at least you've finally admitted that you're a spammer.
> 
> This is progress!


LOL, true. But its better than trolling like you right?


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