# Re-tooling the Spurs: Be Buford and Pop



## sasaint

Rather than signing Corey Maggette, I would re-tool the Spurs by:

1) trading Ginobili to the Pistons for Tayshaun Prince,
2) signing Sasha Vujacic;
3) signing either James Jones or Roger Mason, Jr.,
4) re-signing Kurt Thomas.

My lineup would be:

PG: Tony Parker/George Hill/Jacque Vaughn
SG: Sasha Vujacic/James Jones
SF: Tayshaun Prince/Bruce Bowen/Ime Udoka
PF: Tim Duncan/Ian Mahinmi/Matt Bonner
C: Fabricio Oberto/Kurt Thomas

I might try to deal Bonner back to the Raptors. He is still thought of more highly in Toronto than he ever will be in San Antonio. That still leaves room in case Hairston and/or Gist performs better than expected and actually make the team. Prince is a much better defender than Maggette, a proven winner and a near all-star level performer. I think the Spurs might get Vujacic AND Jones or Mason for little more than Maggette alone. I think Vujacic is on the verge of becoming a high-level performer. Spurs would become younger and better all around.


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## hi im new

i wouldn't let go of ginobili until every single drop of 'basketball juice' is squeezed out of him. trading ginobili would probably cause a riot here in san antonio. i like the vujacic idea, but with ginobili here, he wouldnt sign with us.

what do you guys think about Ime taking over for bowen if we dont get anyone? he did a lot of good towards the end of the season (was it the playoffs? i forget) but then got out of the rotation somehow (again bad memory lol)


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## FreeMason Jr.

Sorry sasaint, but you've failed.


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## sasaint

ezealen said:


> Sorry sasaint, but you've failed.


Why don't you stick your neck out and explain how? Have some fun with it. I think that I have upgraded the team at two positions, both offensively and defensively. In order to get value, I had to give value. I think I've done well and done so with reasonable scenarios. I have posted the Ginobili for Prince thread on the Pistons' board and haven't gotten any feedback - positive or negative. I find that interesting. Vujacic isn't Ginobili right now, but I am a little worried that Ginobili is showing some signs of being a little gimpy. Plus I think Vujacic is on his way to a breakout season and a very good career. Is it a gamble? Yes. But it is a gamble not only that Vujacic will be reasonably capable of replacing Ginobili, but in order to make an immediate upgrade at another position: SF. Prince is talented and steady. He is larger than most 3's which makes him a unique player - both offensively and defensively. He would be a perfect fit in SA - a better fit than a swingman with questionable defense like Maggette.

I understand that most fans would react negatively at first. But building a winning team isn't always done by making the fans happy with personnel decisions. Once the team proved itself on the floor, the fans would forgive and forget. It's all about performance, baby. And this team would be set to challenge for a championship. BOTTOM line: Across the board the team I put together is better than the one the Spurs currently have and better than they would be by just adding Maggette.


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## sasaint

One more observation: I think the teams that do best in the FA market are the ones who sign under-appreciated guys who then blossom. Brandon Bass, Hedo Turkoglu, even Beno Udrih are examles off the top of my head. I think Vujacic could be one of those break-out kind of guys. He played superb defense late in the season and in the playoffs (especially against an admittedly injured Ginobili). He brings the ball up the floor. He shoots the 3-ball and he can take it to the basket. I think he will be a big contributor next year and he has star potential. NOW is when you get him under contract and develop him. (I recognize that many people disagree with my assessment of his potential. If that's why I "failed," then we have a typical GM's disagreement over a player's potential. That's why being a GM is difficult in the real world and why it is fun in this forum. But just "you failed" doesn't really engage in a discussion. I thought that's what this forum is all about.)


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## hi im new

you underestimate the wrath of ginobili. anytime the spurs play him he will go on his crazy shooting nights and own us. imagine what happens if we meet in the finals...


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## sasaint

hi im new said:


> you underestimate the wrath of ginobili. anytime the spurs play him he will go on his crazy shooting nights and own us. imagine what happens if we meet in the finals...


There is no denying Ginobili's tenacity and talent. He is capable of going on such tears. But he is also capable of going 1 for 11. With his spirit of reckless abandon, I worry about his longevity. He is still kind of a loose cannon, and does some ill-advised things from time to time. His performance, admittedly while injured, was what cost us the Lakers series - not just poor shooting, but poor judgment. He dribbled into double teams and turned the ball over a ton. He did not play "smart" while injured. Pop should have played Barry much more in his place. Perhaps we would have won game 1 and consequently the series.

Again, I don't expect many people to agree with me or the Spurs to actually do this, but I think putting on a GM cap in this forum is an opportunity to suggest things that are fun, interesting, provoke conversation and can ultimately be verified by players' performances. If Ginobili plays out of his mind next year and becomes an all-star and the Spurs win the title, then I will eat a lot of crow. But if Ginobili falls off (by injury or otherwise) and Prince and Vujacic have great seasons, as I believe they will, then I'll enjoy saying, "Toldya so! I would be a better GM than Buford!" Isn't that the fun of these forums?

To get value, you must give value. Most teams, including the Spurs, are so afraid of giving value that they seldom get value. That's the principle reason there are no more than 2 or 3 trades every year that are really significant. Fear and CYA are the guiding principles of most GMs, not creativity.


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## sasaint

If you're one of those guys who doesn't like Vujacic, then my trade of Ginobili for Prince, and then signing Maggette could result in this lineup:

PG: Tony Parker/George Hill/Jacque Vaughn
SG: Corey Maggette/James Jones
SF: Tayshaun Prince/Bruce Bowen/Ime Udoka
PF: Tim Duncan/Ian Mahinmi/Matt Bonner
C: Fabricio Oberto/Kurt Thomas

Maybe you'd sign Roger Mason instead of James Jones. Heck, maybe you could get them both - I don't know how much they'll command in free agency. That is title contender.


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## ItalianSpurs

I heard about Bonzi Wells....


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## sasaint

ItalianSpurs said:


> I heard about Bonzi Wells....


What did you hear about Bonzi?


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## ItalianSpurs

sasaint said:


> What did you hear about Bonzi?



That we'r speakin with NE for him...but as usual...money talks, bull**** walks.


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## Zuca

And now there are rumors that Spurs will sign Jannero Pargo:

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/53882/20080805/could_pargo_sign_with_the_spurs/

Thoughts?


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## sasaint

Zuca said:


> And now there are rumors that Spurs will sign Jannero Pargo:
> 
> http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/53882/20080805/could_pargo_sign_with_the_spurs/
> 
> Thoughts?


 They currently have Tony, Manu, Vaughn, Mason and Hill in the backcourt. Neither Pargo nor Bonzi really addresses the SF position (although I think Bonzi plays some 3 in small lineups), which I think is a remaining need.

Despite all appearances to the contrary, Bruce will slow down eventually, if not this year... who knows. And as much as I like Udoka, I don't think he has the lateral quickness to defend the quicker 3's in the league like Bruce can. So, I'd like to see them shore up that position. Does Tolliver or Gist project to a 3?

For some reason, Hornets fans don't seem to value Pargo very highly. I was pretty impressed with him last season, and in the Spurs' series against the Hornets. I wonder if the interest in Pargo is a reflection on George Hill... Or maybe they're thinking about dumping Vaughn. 

I've always liked Bonzi Wells on the court, but I have had concerns about him off court - really just based on rumors. Bonzi is tough, and I like that. I don't know if Pargo is as tough. But I see upside to either guy at the right price.


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## FreeMason Jr.

sasaint said:


> I wonder if the interest in Pargo is a reflection on George Hill... Or maybe they're thinking about dumping Vaughn.


Either putting Hill on the Toros or trading Vaughn would be fine with me. They both suck, and I'd easily take Pargo over either of them.


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## sasaint

ezealen said:


> Either putting Hill on the Toros or trading Vaughn would be fine with me. They both suck, and I'd easily take Pargo over either of them.


Yeah, so far the selection of Hill over Chalmers looks like a total bomb. I'm not a fan of Vaughn's, but I like him better than you do. The Spurs need to have another ballhandler good enough to keep the opponents' press from killing us when Tony is out of the game. I think that is the value of Vaughn - good ballhandler to break the press for enough minutes to give Tony a breather.

I think the Hornets' fans are not high on Pargo because he is not a true PG to backup Chris Paul. Mason and Pargo are both combo guards, but maybe one or both handle the ball well enough. No question they're both better than Vaughn at putting the ball in the bucket.

I still wish they not only had re-signed Barry, but utilized him more. I fear he will be sorely missed. I think Mason has some pretty big sneakers to fill, and I sure hope he fills 'em. If not, maybe Pargo...

Wow, that would surely turn over the Spurs' backcourt from last season!


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## FreeMason Jr.

Parker/Pargo/Vaughn-or-Hill/Mason
Ginobili/Mason/Finley
Bowen/Udoka (I'm willing to bet Tolliver gets some play time here as well)
Thomas/Oberto/Tolliver
Duncan/Mahinmi/Gist/Bonner

Me likey.


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## ItalianSpurs

News from Italiy: seems that Angelico Biella signed a one year contract with James Gist. He'll play like 4 in the starting fives.


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## sasaint

ItalianSpurs said:


> News from Italiy: seems that Angelico Biella signed a one year contract with James Gist. He'll play like 4 in the starting fives.


Gist will likely benefit from a year in Italy. Although, I was hoping he would show enough for the Spurs to sign him and bring him along like they did Mahinmi last season.

Is Angelico usually a decent team?


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## sasaint

Over on the Hornets' board, fans are not taking the Pargo rumors seriously. They think his skill set is too similar to Mason's for the Spurs to have any real interest. They also think that he would make more money and get more PT by staying put.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Tony, Manu, Mason and Pargo, with Hill being assigned to the Toros. I don't think Vaughn is tradeable. You either keep him for his ballhandling or cut him. It depends entirely on how the rest of the roster gets filled out.

So, is Tolliver quick enough to be a decent 3 on defense? Or is he more of a 4 with shooting range? I'm still not comfortable with just Bruce and Ime at the 3.


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## ItalianSpurs

Sasaint, Angelico isn't a top team, but they r serious and it's a perfect place to grow, I think he'll take benefits and should improve a lot. I was hoping too in a contract with Spurs, i think Gist should show us really good things and he look a very hard defense as SA tradition. so i'll see Gist in italy live and i'll our scout for next season!


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## sasaint

ItalianSpurs said:


> Sasaint, Angelico isn't a top team, but they r serious and it's a perfect place to grow, I think he'll take benefits and should improve a lot. I was hoping too in a contract with Spurs, i think Gist should show us really good things and he look a very hard defense as SA tradition. so i'll see Gist in italy live and i'll our scout for next season!


Great! Good to have a scout. Incidentally, how did you come to be a Spurs fan in Italy?


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## FreeMason Jr.

No offense ItalianSpurs, but how is that even possible? The Spurs own his draft rights, and if they wanted him to develop somewhere, they'd have sent him to Austin.


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## ItalianSpurs

It's a strange story, but....i tell u (read as _I kill u_of Achmed)
I come in US for a trip years ago, i spend some months up and down on the west coast and by the way i saw a lot ppl play bb(as usual), but only one with a silver n black jersey(and 2 much of LALoser)...i loved his way to dunk, so i started to support da Spurs. While i was growin my passion made the same thanks Admiral n Timmy...and now, during the season i stay up in the nights 2 see SA matches...that's my story, now, let me make a answer...
Why so few bros write here in this glorious team's space?
Oh, i've a reply to ur possible answer....Stern sucks!


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## ItalianSpurs

ezealen said:


> No offense ItalianSpurs, but how is that even possible? The Spurs own his draft rights, and if they wanted him to develop somewhere, they'd have sent him to Austin.


I dunno why, but a lot of sites take that as more than a rumor...and the official presentation is plans for tomorrow....

Ah, btw, Biella signed Trent Plaisted (official)...he's originally from San Antonio.


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## ItalianSpurs

@ Ezealen:
And now it's official:
http://www.pallacanestrobiella.it/pagine/news_dett.php?id=1351

Oh, before come in NBA Thabo Sefolosha staid in Biella

Stay tuned!


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## FreeMason Jr.

Yeah, it's been official for the past few days. And it seems like it was the Spurs decision. Why would they put him on a European team instead of the Toros though?


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## TiMVP2

Trade Manu for Tayshaun? You're a fan of the SPURS?

We're fine now. I think we can win. But we gotta either keep Finley or get Pargo.


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## ItalianSpurs

Uh-oh...Pargo in Russia....


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## TiMVP2

I don't care about Pargo anymore since we re-signed Finley. So I guess no real big changes this offseason except replace Damon and Barry with Hill and Mason


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## MVP.Kobe

The Spurs are probably gunna become an up-tempo team in a couple years anyway. With Duncan, Finley, Thomas, and Bowen near retirement then, the Spurs should build around their fast backcourt of Manu and Parker. I think they should sign Rubio from Spain, whatever team he plays on right now. He would be a perfect backup for Tony Parker. And they should also get Pargo, another fast player.


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## FreeMason Jr.

In a matter of a few years, Ginobili will be useless. Duncan however, will still be around; but this will be Parker's team... that is, if he doesn't ship out to a larger market once the glory years are over and the Spurs start to rebuild.

Here's to hoping Gist, Mahinmi, and Hill become something in the future. And who knows? We may even be able to bring Splitter in in a few years.


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## ItalianSpurs

U r right Ezealen, we need to find ourself new prospects, we haven't Bostons or LAs appeal....
Splitter shell be a good player, but IMHO Mahimi will b better
Remember we'v the rights on Jatokas, he's playin very well in this Olympic


By the way, Finley will be a Spurs player again, rebuffing overtures from a short list of suitors that included the Celtics. Welcome back!


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## Spaceman Spiff

I thought the Spurs were going to go after JR Smith. He'd give them the perfect boost of youth and athleticism they need, and we all know discipline on and off the court is no problem with Pop. Its probably not possible since Denver says they have every intent to match any offer he gets.

Corey Maggette would have been ideal.


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## sasaint

By the end of last season, Finley was clearly over the hill. Bringing him back is a waste of money, roster space and time that could be invested in grooming a younger player.

Mahinmi hasn't show that he will be even a decent player. And regardless of how good Splitter becomes, he has no chance of playing for the Spurs while Duncan, Ginobili and Parker are on the roster. Not enough money under the cap to sign all 4 to huge concurrent contracts. There would be nothing left to fill out the roster - except maybe with guys from the YMCA.

Ezealen, you seem to think that Ginobili will depart before Duncan. Just your gut feeling? I think they will both get out in 3 years. With his style of play, however, Ginobili's career could come crashing down any minute. That was a small consideration in my suggestion to trade Manu for Tayshaun Prince. I think Prince is an all-star caliber SF who will have a longer, more productive career than Mannu, fit in well with the team and shore up our SF position, providing excellent defense as well as offense. Of course, after that, I wanted to sign Vujacic, who has been resigned by the Lakers....The Spurs would have maintined excellent defense and increased their offensive potential, with scoring coming from more players.

I predict that Mason's progress and impact will be hindered by bringing Finley back.

I am still miffed that Brent Barry was so underutilized while he was here, and now he is gone...


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## ItalianSpurs

Giricek in Russia, we had offer a two years contract but our money weren't enought for him...


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## hi im new

i cant believe finely was resigned. next thing you know, the spurs will bring horry back and we'll be stuck in the same situation we were last year.


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## FreeMason Jr.

sasaint said:


> Ezealen, you seem to think that Ginobili will depart before Duncan. Just your gut feeling? I think they will both get out in 3 years.


Whoa now! When did I say I thought either one of them was going to leave? Duncan's going to stay a spur for the rest of his career. I think that's obvious. In fact, if any of the big three leave, it'll more than likely be Parker. I just hope he doesn't, because he's the future of this franchise.


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## sasaint

ezealen said:


> Whoa now! When did I say I thought either one of them was going to leave? Duncan's going to stay a spur for the rest of his career. I think that's obvious. In fact, if any of the big three leave, it'll more than likely be Parker. I just hope he doesn't, because he's the future of this franchise.


You're right. What you said was that Ginobili would be useless in "a few years," but Duncan would still be around. I thought you were implying that Duncan would be around in a few years, but Ginobili would be useless and gone. A "few years" is 3 or more - I don't see Duncan staying beyond that. He will retire. IF Ginobili is useless, then he will be gone, too.

I agree that Parker is the most likely Spur to bolt for a bigger paycheck and a more glamorous city - say, LA, where Eva works.

The point is that the Spurs have spent several years growing older without adding anybody, with the possible exception of Mahinmi, who can make much of a contribution to the future. They struggle to find adequate back-ups for the present, and are totally lacking in guys who have the talent to develop into solid future starters. Re-signing Finley is just the most recent reflection of that course of action. In the next 1-3 years, the Spurs will lose Duncan, Bowen, Thomas, probably Scola and possibly Ginobili and Parker.

San Antonio will not compete with the glamour franchises for superstar free agents WITHOUT offering them a legitimate chance to win a title. That legitimate chance is gradually disappearing as the team and ESPECIALLY Duncan gradually age and decline. Without superstar free agents, the Spurs will have to rely on their homegrown talent; but like old Mother Hubbard's, their cupboard is bare.


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## FreeMason Jr.

It's hard to add anything but role players when the only money they had this off season was in exceptions. In 2010 there will be a ton of quality FA's, and the Spurs will have a **** load of money to throw around to build something around Tony Parker and Tim Duncan... and, as hard as it is for me to say this, it may be wise to try to trade Ginobili before his stock plummets.

That said, the Mason pick up with pretty good signing.


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## ItalianSpurs

there's a problem more for our plains....i think all in NBA know that Manu is near to end of his career on the top, he broke once again in today's olympic match...2 much useless to trade

And Nuggets announced that resign J.R. Smith.

Oh my Gosh....no way, what Buford and Pop could invent now?


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## ItalianSpurs

by the way, another new from my "big throat"------

Nick Fazekas working out with the Spurs


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## FreeMason Jr.

big throat?


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## ItalianSpurs

sorry guts this is a joke with a friend whom i know is reading here(u s**k Andy)
but the news on Fazekas is true


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## hi im new

yea andy, you suck!


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## FreeMason Jr.

And here I thought I was the only one who hated andy.


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## TiMVP2

****in Andy.


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## FreeMason Jr.

TiMVP2 said:


> ****in Andy.


You don't even know Andy.


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## ItalianSpurs

ezealen said:


> You don't even know Andy.



Anh hope 4 ur mental sanity u'll never know him!


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## streetballa

Release all the old farts, finish last in the west next season so we can get like 6 picks in the draft. Sign some other promising young guns, Keep Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, and Bowen.

There you go, the championships will start rolling, and not just on the odd years.


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## streetballa

Also, can we please get some athletisism.....please!


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