# NBA Trade Deadline Thread



## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

I'd bet we don't make any moves by the deadline - but you never know. Names being tossed around associated with the Celtics:

Chad Fraud has this _idea_:



> *Ray Allen and Robert Swift to the Celtics
> 
> Rashard Lewis to the Bobcats
> 
> ...


This trade makes no sense. But some other real ones may pop up.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Is it a bad idea to stop reading after seeing Chad Fords name?

My IQ points are always in danger.


Well, I made the mistake and read a bit...Ford is an idiot.

If the Celtics actually wanted to win they would have gotten a veteran by now.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

^ agreed.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

omg if i ever see robert swift in a celtics uni ill burn the garden down myself...put rashard lewis in there with ray allen and id do it...id even thow in this years first rounder...yes i said this years...for 2 all star players??? give me ray at the2 pierce at the 3 and rashard at the 4 omg what a lineup...


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

That lineup would give up about 150 points per game.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> That lineup would give up about 150 points per game.




and it would score 170...it works for the suns and mavs


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Wrong. The Mavericks play defense.

And we don't have a guy named Steve Nash at the helm of our team. 

Big difference. That team would win 50 games and be gone in the first round because they couldn't D up anyone. In case you haven't watched basketball in the last hundred years or so, trying to simply outscore your opponent without playing defense hasn't been too conducive to winning championships.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

the suns will win the championship this year...and we do not need a guy like nash running the show with 3 superstar players like pierce allen and lewis...the reason the suns need nash and the reason why he is mvp is he makes mediocre players good to great...the only superstar they have is amare and marion is a very good player...other than that nash is needed to make things easier for bell, diaw, barbosa etc...you could be the pg of a team with pp allen and lewis and they would be fine...and if that team won 50 games they would not be out in the 1st round because they would be a one or two seed in the east and they wouldnt lose to orlando or new york or whoever had the 8th seed...that team would dominate the east...there would still be at least 3 teams in the west that were better but in the east they would cruise


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

How the hell do you get Allen, Lewis, and Pierce on the court at the same time?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> the suns will win the championship this year...


No, they won't. But if they somehow manage, it will be because they acquired guys like Raja Bell and Kurt Thomas - proven defensive players - because they haven't been able to stop anyone in the last three years.



> ...and we do not need a guy like nash running the show with 3 superstar players like pierce allen and lewis...


Maybe not Nash, but a legit point guard. Running isos for Pierce/Allen/Lewis isn't going to get you enough points to win.

And simply put - a team of West/Pierce/Allen/Lewis/Jefferson would never win a chip. They'd get hosed by the Detroit Pistons and other teams that actually, you know, play defense. That team has a better chance at a chip than the current team, but really not that much. Lewis shrinks when it matters the most and managed to miss crucial playoff games with a minor injury.

You don't trade this pick to win fifty games and never win anything, because that's the optimum that Pierce/Lewis/Allen can give.



> How the hell do you get Allen, Lewis, and Pierce on the court at the same time?


AWF seems to think you can stick Lewis at the 4 without having every decent power forward in the NBA go off for 35 each night.

To simplify this, take the Sonics minus their legit PG in Ridnour, and add Pierce. It doesn't make them anything close to contenders. It makes them a playoff team. We've been a mediocre playoff team before. I think the ultimate goal is to win championships, not first round exits.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> AWF seems to think you can stick Lewis at the 4 without having every decent power forward in the NBA go off for 35 each night.


every decent pf like who??...cliff robinson?? joe smith?? david lee??? pj brown??? do i have to go on with the pathetic pfs that are in the east (lee isnt pathetic but hes not a great player)...the only ones that he wouldnt be able to defend would be bosh and jermaine and possibly antawn jamison...THIS ISNT THE WEST...he wont have to guard brand, duncan, boozer, amare etc for 4 games each per year...



> To simplify this, take the Sonics minus their legit PG in Ridnour, and add Pierce. It doesn't make them anything close to contenders. It makes them a playoff team.


YOU ARE COMPLETELY RIGHT!! minus one thing...they are in the westttttttttttt...you cant say take off ridnour and put pierce on the sonics because THAT IS THE WEST...do you not realize how pathetic the east is in comparison??


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> every decent pf like who??...cliff robinson?? joe smith?? david lee??? pj brown???


Big men in the East who will have a field day with the 4/5 tandem of Lewis/Jefferson:

Chris Bosh
Nenad Krstic
Eddy Curry
Rasheed Wallace
Drew Gooden
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Jermaine O'Neal
Dwight Howard
Shaquille O'Neal
Emeka Okafor
Antawn Jamison

At least one big from almost every team will absolutely abuse these guys all night long.



> YOU ARE COMPLETELY RIGHT!! minus one thing...they are in the westttttttttttt...you cant say take off ridnour and put pierce on the sonics because THAT IS THE WEST...do you not realize how pathetic the east is in comparison??


Granted, the East is awful, but, as I mentioned, this move makes the Celtics nothing more than a first-to-mid-round exit playoff team. Yippee.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> every decent pf like who??...cliff robinson?? joe smith?? david lee??? pj brown??? do i have to go on with the pathetic pfs that are in the east (lee isnt pathetic but hes not a great player)...the only ones that he wouldnt be able to defend would be bosh and jermaine and possibly antawn jamison...THIS ISNT THE WEST...he wont have to guard brand, duncan, boozer, amare etc for 4 games each per year...


Jesus, Lewis would even struggle against He Who Shall Not Be Named (we really need a way to put THAT name into a language filter for this board, :bsmile: ) Lewis is just a catch & shoot player. That's it. He can't play the 4.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Big men in the East who will have a field day with the 4/5 tandem of Lewis/Jefferson:
> 
> Chris Bosh
> Nenad Krstic
> ...



i never said that in the event we get lewis i would want Al to be our starting center


and you forget to mention that while these players are having a field day on lewis, pierce allen and lewis would be having a field day on EVERY team in the league...most teams have A perimiter defensive stopper...not 3...so the trio of pp allen and lewis would average about 70 a night


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Seattle can't rebuild due to financial reasons. And Lewis can't play the 4. Let's put it this way: When McMillan was coaching. he opted to play Vladmir "Never Posted Up Once in My Life as A Sonic" Radmanovic at the 4 over Lewis. What does that say about Lewis' post defense?


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> i never said that in the event we get lewis i would want Al to be our starting center
> 
> 
> and you forget to mention that while these players are having a field day on lewis, pierce allen and lewis would be having a field day on EVERY team in the league...most teams have A perimiter defensive stopper...not 3...so the trio of pp allen and lewis would average about 70 a night


No, because there's only one basketball, remember?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Ford plays-off the most convoluted trade ideas as both "realistic" and "necessary".

Guy should stick to scouting and fantasy leagues.


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## cgcatsfan (Jun 10, 2005)

Chad Fraud didn't have Lewis coming to US anyway. 
We'd get SWIFT and Allen and give up Telfair, Gomes, Green and (Okay, who cares) Ratliff?? 

Can't see WHY we'd do that. If we could trade for Allen without taking Swift, I'd say okay, but as written, it makes no sense to give all that up for essentially one player.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

We'd need Tim Duncan as our starting center with those three on the floor at the same time.



> and you forget to mention that while these players are having a field day on lewis, pierce allen and lewis would be having a field day on EVERY team in the league...most teams have A perimiter defensive stopper...not 3...so the trio of pp allen and lewis would average about 70 a night


Even provided they did, they'd be giving up twice that. Rashard Lewis can _not_ play the 4, Pierce is no shutdown defender, and Allen even worse. We'd need the best interior defenders in the NBA to make up for them getting blown by every single play.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

cgcatsfan said:


> Chad Fraud didn't have Lewis coming to US anyway.
> We'd get SWIFT and Allen and give up Telfair, Gomes, Green and (Okay, who cares) Ratliff??
> 
> Can't see WHY we'd do that. If we could trade for Allen without taking Swift, I'd say okay, but as written, it makes no sense to give all that up for essentially one player.


All what? Gomes & Green for Allen & Swift? It seems more than fair to me.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

P-Dub34 said:


> We'd need Tim Duncan as our starting center with those three on the floor at the same time.
> 
> 
> Even provided they did, they'd be giving up twice that. Rashard Lewis can _not_ play the 4, Pierce is no shutdown defender, and Allen even worse. We'd need the best interior defenders in the NBA to make up for them getting blown by every single play.


Aim higher. We'd need the second coming of Christ in the form of Bill Russell with those three.

This isn't NBA Live and Allen, Lewis, and Pierce would be awful together. It would be fairly entertaining at times, but it wouldn't work and it wouldn't win us anything. Also, there's no way we'd get Allen and Lewis without giving up Pierce.

Lets keep it simple. Stick with what we have for now and get Oden or Durant in the draft and go from there.

And for Nash, those average players he makes look good? Amare and Marion now? Dirk and Joe Johnson in days gone by? I'll take those average guys anyway.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

OMG what is with you people assuming we are getting oden or durant?!?!?


lets do the math...SAYING we have the worst record in the nba this eyar there is a 45% chance of us getting a top 2 pick...and I say there is about a 50% chance that BOTH oden and Durant come out...thats from a 1 in 5 to 1 in 3 chance of landing one of those 2....is that enough to throw a whole season for??? THIS ISNT THE NFL...THE WORST TEAM DOES NOT GET THE FIRST PICK...ugh


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

agoo101284 said:


> And for Nash, those average players he makes look good? Amare and Marion now? Dirk and Joe Johnson in days gone by? I'll take those average guys anyway.




the suns are 158-42 with nash the last 3 years and 4-12 without...nuff said


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> the suns are 158-42 with nash the last 3 years and 4-12 without.


So Pierce is the MVP then?


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> So Pierce is the MVP then?




omg....the celtics were what 12-22 with pierce and 3-18 without him??? yea...that makes pierce the mvp


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> omg....the celtics were what 12-22 with pierce and 3-18 without him???


The Celtics were 2-22 without Pierce this year (.083). Over the last three it's 3-24 for a .111 winning %


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Juan Dixon for Fred Jones. That was an exciting trade deadline!


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> The Celtics were 2-22 without Pierce this year (.083). Over the last three it's 3-24 for a .111 winning %



ok...and with him they have a winning percentage of 40...with nash the suns winning percentage is like 78 and without him is 25...slight difference bt nash and pierce eh


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> ok...and with him they have a winning percentage of 40...with nash the suns winning percentage is like 78 and without him is 25...slight difference bt nash and pierce eh


The Celtics are a bad NBDL team without Pierce and an NBA team with him. The Suns are a good NBA team with or without Nash. If he went out for an extended stretch as Pierce did, they wouldn't go 6-18. And this is all irrelevant as Dirk's the NBA anyway. He's carrying a less talented squad a whole lot further.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

I think the Celtics would have quite the NBDL team. But I don't think that's the goal.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> The Celtics are a bad NBDL team without Pierce and an NBA team with him. The Suns are a good NBA team with or without Nash. If he went out for an extended stretch as Pierce did, they wouldn't go 6-18. And this is all irrelevant as Dirk's the NBA anyway. He's carrying a less talented squad a whole lot further.



you think a 30 win team constitutes the celtics being a "nba team"...sorry...i dont...i think they are still a nbdl team being carried by a superstar to those 30 wins but that does not make him mvp...they suck with him and they suck without him how is that mvp???...oh and btw Jason terry and his 21, Jerry stackhouse and his 18 and Devin Harris and his 17 points from last night say hello...and thats not even including all star josh howard who turned an ankle and didnt play the whole game...quite the "less talented" bunch huh?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> oh and btw Jason terry and his 21, Jerry stackhouse and his 18 and Devin Harris and his 17 points from last night say hello...and thats not even including all star josh howard who turned an ankle and didnt play the whole game...quite the "less talented" bunch huh?


Worst. Point. Ever.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't think there was anyone that wanted to make a real trade with us anyway : (


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## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

Honestly, I was hoping to see Walker traded back to Boston (with Doleac) for Wally and Kandi


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Worst. Point. Ever.



why?...im just saying that the "less talented" mavs are just as talented as the suposedly more talented suns...its not like dirk is playing with scalabrine the kandi man and leon powe...he has a very good supporting cast...as does nash


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

You made your point by citing point totals for one game. There is no way you even think that's not a flawed example.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> You made your point by citing point totals for one game. There is no way you even think that's not a flawed example.



you are right and i agree totally...here are hopefully some better numbers as they are season stats...


Josh Howard : 19 pts 7 rebs 2 asts per game

Jason Terry : 16 pts 3 rebs 5 asts per game

Devin Harris : 10 pts 4 rebs 2 asts per game

Jerry Stachouse : 11 pts 2 rebs 2 asts per game 


Amare : 20 pts 9 rebs 1 asts per game

Marion : 18 pts 10 rebs 2 asts per game

Barbosa: 17 pts 3 rebs 4 asts per game

Bell : 15 pts 3 rebs 2 asts per game


hey look at that...the suns players have somewhat better numbers...BECAUSE THEY ARE PLAYING WITH STEVE NASH...and the numbers arent even that much better...so the arguement to say dirk is doing soooo much with such a less talented team is ridiculous...switch stackhouse and bell and stackhouse would score more with nash and bell would score less with terry...the numbers are better because of nash...the players on the suns are slightly more talended BUT NOT ENOUGH TO USE THE ARGUEMENT THAT IT MATTERS IN THE MVP RACE...had dirk been on the celtics instead of pierce and he led our bums to a 45-9 record then be my guest and say he has done more with less...but not on his team


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Amare plays better without Nash. Marion had some of his best seasons before Phoenix signed with Nash. Barbosa is instant offense off the bench and doesn't spend a good portion of his court time playing alongside Nash.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> Amare plays better without Nash. Marion had some of his best seasons before Phoenix signed with Nash. Barbosa is instant offense off the bench and doesn't spend a good portion of his court time playing alongside Nash.


as a person who loves stats i would have expected more from you prem...ill give u barbosa but with amare and marion the stats dont lie


amare in his first 2 years with marbury averaged about 15 pts per game while shooting 47% from the field...nice numbers right?? in his first year with nash he averaged 26 points on 56 % from the field...he plays better without nash???

marion in his years with marbury during the 4 full seasons he played had a fg% in order of seasons of 48%, 47%, 45% and 44%...steadily declining each year...as soon as nash shows up, in the last 3 years his fg% has been 48%, 53% and 51%...

so amare increases his ppg by 11 and his fg% by 9% yet he plays better without nash...and marion had some of his "best" seasons before nash yet he is scoring the same without having to take nearly as many shots because nash has helped him increase his fg% by 7 or 8%...umm ok?


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

You're acting like they're average players when Nash isn't on the court.

'04-'05 season [credit to Diophantos for the calculation]

Amare's play due to Nash

 Amare's total per 40 minute numbers:
28.9 pts, 9.9 rbs, 1.8 asts, 1.8 blks, 1.1 stls, 55.9 fg%, 2.6 to's, 11.0 fta's

Amare's per 40 minute numbers with Nash (from 82games.com):
29.5 pts, 10.0 rbs, 1.7 asts, 1.7 blks, 0.9 stls, 58.3 fg%, 2.3 to's, 11.1 fta's

*Amare's per 40 minute numbers without Nash - 817 minutes:
27.0 pts, 9.5 rbs, 2.1 asts, 2.1 blks, 1.5 stls, 50.0 fg%, 3.4 to's, 10.8 fta's

*Marion's play due to Nash

 Marion's total per 40 minute numbers:
20.0 pts, 11.7 rbs, 2.0 asts, 1.5 blks, 2.1 stls, 47.6 fg%, 1.6 to's, 3.5 fta's

Marion's per 40 minute numbers with Nash (from 82games.com):
20.9 pts, 11.7 rbs, 1.7 asts, 1.6 blks, 2.2 stls, 48.1 fg%, 1.3 to's, 3.4 fta's
*
Marion's per 40 minute numbers without Nash - 880 minutes:
17.5 pts, 11.5 rbs, 2.6 asts, 1.3 blks, 1.7 stls, 45.9 fg%, 2.3 to's, 3.7 fta's

*'05-'06 season [credit to Diophantos for the calculation]

Marion's play due to Nash

 Marion's total per 40 minute numbers:
21.7 pts, 11.7 rbs, 1.7 asts, 1.7 blks, 2.0 stls, 52.4 fg%, 1.5 to's, 3.7 fta's

Marion's per 40 minute numbers with Nash (from 82games.com):
21.9 pts, 11.4 rbs, 1.8 asts, 1.5 blks, 2.1 stls, 51.4 fg%, 1.5 to's, 3.6 fta's

*Marion's per 40 minute numbers without Nash - 688 minutes:
20.9 pts, 12.8 rbs, 1.3 asts, 2.5 blks, 1.6 stls, 56.8 fg%, 1.5 to's, 4.1 fta's*


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

i absolutely HATE these ridiculous stat categories tho...along with efg% and rebrates and whatever other concoctions are out there...prem these numbers are ridiuclous...as PER 40 stats what the numbers are basically doing is taking the production from marion and/or amare when nash is not on the court...which is about 8 to 10 minues per game...and multiplying them by 4 or 5 to get a per 40 average...so if marion goes 3-4 scoring 7 pts without nash in the game thats a PER 40 without nash of 35 ppg with a fg% of 75...average that a few times into any numbers and the per 40 will be ridiculously high...in reality he played a handful of minutes without nash and scored a couple of buckets...all anyone has to do is look at the gigantic leap in production amare and marion took from 03-04 to 04-05...and real stats like ppg and fg% 

and im not saying they are average players without nash...im saying amare is a great player that is made into a superstar by nash and marion is a very good player made into a great player by nash


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> as PER 40 stats what the numbers are basically doing is taking the production from marion and/or amare when nash is not on the court.


 700-800 minutes is a rather large sample size.



> and im not saying they are average players without nash...im saying amare is a great player that is made into a superstar by nash and marion is a very good player made into a great player by nash


 Hardly. Nash has a slightly positive impact on Amare and Marion, as shown by those statistics.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

prem...as i said before...per 40 cannot be used in this situation...ok let me give this example...if amare plays 1 minute in a game without nash...and he gets an offensive rebound and a putback dunk...and thats the only minute he played in the game without nash...his per 40 that would be averaged into those stats would be 80 ppg 40 rpg with a 100 fg%...so even if he has 4 terrible games when nash is not on the court he has a 80 ppg 40 rpg 100 fg% game to average into those numbers...it is EASY to put up good numbers over a 6 or 8 minute span...as show by eddie house leaduing the league in ppg per 48 minutes for a long time...but you are not gonna say that eddie house is the best scorer in the league because of his per 48 minutes ppg...all he did was come in for 7 or 8 minues and his a couple of threes so he was averaging about 35 pp 48 minutes...it doesnt apply


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## AMΣRICAN GOD™ (Jun 4, 2005)

This is a ridiculous argument. You can ask any Mav's fan; they'd rather have Amare (all-star w/o Nash), Marion (all star, all defensive w/o Nash), Bell, and Barbosa rather than Terry, Howard, and some bums.

It's not even a close argument.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

AM?RICAN GOD™ said:


> This is a ridiculous argument. You can ask any Mav's fan; they'd rather have Amare (all-star w/o Nash), Marion (all star, all defensive w/o Nash), Bell, and Barbosa rather than Terry, Howard, and some bums.
> 
> It's not even a close argument.


Amen. I find it hilarious that #1AWF posted the stats to "prove his point" when all they illustrate is that the Mavs second best player is _almost_ as good as the Suns third best player and that the Suns have two guys as good as the Mavs third best player, and then we have the Stackhouse v. Diaw argument, and there isn't a person in the NBA that doesn't take Diaw's 10/5/5 with good defense at three positions over Stackhouse's far more limited game. But, #1AWF is just convinced that Amare was a scrub saved by Nash. I guess his sophomore year, where he averaged 21/9 has dropped down the memory hole.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

omg...


raja bell in the 4 years before teaming with nash averaged 7 ppg...woohoo..

diaw in the 2 years before teaming up with nash averaged 4.5 ppg...


yea these guys are ****ing great players without nash really anybody in the nba would have taken them on their team  


and yes amare averaged 21 and 9 on 47% from the field his sophomore year but he averaged 26 and 9 on 56% from the field his next year with nash...i guess that really doesnt matter and it dropped down your memory hole


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

A high-school PF improved in what would be his junior year in college over his second season with the addition of an all-star point guard.

Shocking.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

I guess it's good that fans vote for allstars - but not the MVP. Nash was deserving of the 2 MVP's he was awarded, and he is having another MVP level season this year. If the Suns have better or worse talent than the Mavs is only slightly relevant. Nash does what an allstar and MVP should - puts up amazing numbers, while also helping make the game easier for his teammates. He make them better - no matter how good (or not so good, based on their TEAM record with out him) they are to begin with. Yes many other players improve their team. But I don't think to the level Nash does. He's amazing.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> omg... i'm cluesless


Well, I'm not going to argue that.




#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> raja bell in the 4 years before teaming with nash averaged 7 ppg...woohoo..


Raja Bell in his two years getting regular minutes in Utah 11.2 p/g & 12.3 p/g. Steve Nash is so good at making his teammates better he's able to make his future teammates better when they're playing for other teams!!!



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> diaw in the 2 years before teaming up with nash averaged 4.5 ppg...


Diaw is a product of Mike D'Antoni's offense, which frees him from shooting and allows him to concentrate on what he does best, driving the rim and passing. He'd look equally good playing here under Rivers (because Rivers runs his offense through the 2/3).



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> yea these guys are ****ing great players without nash really anybody in the nba would have taken them on their team


Get back to me when a Smush Parker level player looks like a legit NBAer out there in Phoenix.



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> and yes amare averaged 21 and 9 on 47% from the field his sophomore year but he averaged 26 and 9 on 56% from the field his next year with nash.


A relentlessly driven superstar big man got better between his second and third seasons? That has _never_ happened in the history of the NBA. I am shocked, shocked I tell you.

At the end of the day, Dirk carries a worse team further than Nash takes a team with a future Hall of Famer and a multi-time All-Star. When Simmons was gushing about the Suns "almost 35 game win streak" he didn't notice that even if the Suns _had_ won 35 straight, they'd still be trailing the Mavericks in the standings. The disrespect shown Dirk is truly awe-inspiring. He led a collection of roleplayers to the best record in the NBA last year and didn't finish within spitting distance of the #1 spot in the MVP voting. Heck, LeBron James took a collection of stiffs to a record nearly as good, and got shivved in the voting as well.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

agoo101284 said:


> A high-school PF improved in what would be his junior year in college over his second season with the addition of an all-star point guard.
> 
> Shocking.




did you forget that he had an all star pg his first 2 years in the league before nash too??...you are making the point that i am trying to make...alot of ppl here think nash is irrelevant to amares superstar game...marbury was an all star pg but he couldnt get the most out of amare because he wasnt nash...there are few ppl in the world that can do what nash does for his teammates

and eh...ugh...its not even worth it...


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

#1AWF said:


> did you forget that he had an all star pg his first 2 years in the league before nash too??...you are making the point that i am trying to make...alot of ppl here think nash is irrelevant to amares superstar game...marbury was an all star pg but he couldnt get the most out of amare because he wasnt nash...there are few ppl in the world that can do what nash does for his teammates.


Because Amare didn't improve _at all_ between his rookie and sophomore years. I mean, he averaged what, like 8 p/g after Marbury was dealt 30 odd games into his second season? It's a good thing that Steve Nash came along and saved him from obscurity.


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## AMΣRICAN GOD™ (Jun 4, 2005)

I applaud you taking on the entire board, AWF, but just stop while you're only a little bit behind. You're making good points, but it's not even an argument that Nash has better players surrounding him. Don't get me wrong, I think Nash is an amazing player, and YES, he makes his players better, but he's not doing what Dirk is doing.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Nash deserved the 2 MVP's he won. And I'd be surprised if he did not win his third this season. He is that good. And that important to his TEAM. I really don't care how good his teammates are - or are not. They win with a lot wit him. They lose more than they win, without him. He's the engine and the glue. 

Dirk also is fantastic and I would not be upset if he won. I also would not spend all next season arguing how Nash is better if Dirk wins. They both are excellent. My vote goes to Nash though.


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## BostonBasketball (Jan 10, 2005)

Its crazy to think that Nash and Nowitzki used to play together.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Oh yeah. I don't seem to recall Dirk's production dropping after Nash left Dallas. In fact, it actually improved. Perhaps Nash made Dirk worse?


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Right Prem that makes a lot of sense. Then perhaps Dirk made Nash worse?


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

AMΣRICAN GOD™ said:


> I applaud you taking on the entire board, AWF, but just stop while you're only a little bit behind. You're making good points, but it's not even an argument that Nash has better players surrounding him. Don't get me wrong, I think Nash is an amazing player, and YES, he makes his players better, but he's not doing what Dirk is doing.



i never said that dirk had better players...i said that nash had slightly better players and it was so close that its irrelevant in the mvp race...and the arguement comes down to amare and marion vs. terry and howard because everyone else after that is interchangeable...and yes amare and marion are a little better than terry and howard but all 4 of them are all star level type players...ppl around here are acting like boris diaw and raja bell are untouchable superstars when in fact they are putting up good numbers because they are playing with nash...AND THATS MY POINT...

people keep pointing out oo amare was doing great before nash...but they refuse to acknowledge that for the first 2 seasons he played his fg% was steady, and very good, but when nash came his 3rd season it rose by 10% to put him at the top of the league but i guess nash had nothing to do with it bc pfs always make amazing jumps from their second to third year apparently...and also players like devin harris and leandro barbosa are interchangeable because in the same amount of minutes barbosa gets a few more points but harris gets more assists steals blocks and has a better fg% so if he took as many shots as barbosa he'd be putting up better numbers...but no everyone around here thinks barbosa is the 2nd coming of allen iverson

jerry stackhouse and raja bell or boris diaw are interchangeable too...if stackhouse was playing with nash he'd be putting up better numbers and vce versa....but its impossible to make u guys believe that the reason nashes players are better IS nash so i dont know why im wasting my breath


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## BostonBasketball (Jan 10, 2005)

There's no doubt that Nash helped Amare but there are too many variable to say that he is the entire reason that Amare's stats jumped so much. Many think that a players 3rd year the NBA is when they make the jump from developing to developed, and numbers tend to rise. Just look at Al this year, and Allen before he got hurt.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Causeway said:


> Right Prem that makes a lot of sense. Then perhaps Dirk made Nash worse?


Perhaps D'Antoni's system had something to do with it?


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Diaw and Bell's defensive ability alone makes them better players than Stackhouse. Does Nash improve their perimeter defense? If so, I wonder why he can't teach himself how to play defense like Raja Bell.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> Perhaps D'Antoni's system had something to do with it?


Perhaps. In that case perhaps Avery Johnson's system had something to do with Dirks improved #'s?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

...


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> Pardon me sir, how was your day today?


It was nice my kind sir. Thanks for asking. How about you?


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