# Iverson 2 for 21 tonight



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I think we are beginning to see the decline of AI. The Sixers are going to have to trade if for no other reason than to make up for the rest of the roster. This team is going no where fast. 

2/21 my goodness. Allen stop shooting. :no:


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## onecooljew (Apr 24, 2003)

9% from the field..ada boy Allen!


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

Ouch and I thought Steve Francis was bad....


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

He missed his last 18 shots to finish the game.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

He did have a bad knee, he shouldve stopped playing.


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

Having missed the last four games with a sore shoulder, Iverson made two of his first three shots before bumping knees with Marbury late in the first quarter and taking a seat. 

But he just said he had an off night.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Only 3 worse shooting nights in NBA History. Bob Cousy and Truck Robinson are two of them.

Kid just needs some help out there. And he probably should not have played. Which is easy to say now. Almost all of the shots were very difficult shots though. Most were contested. So you do need to hand it to the Knicks defensive scheme somewhat, in addition to having a very off night.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

Of all the SGs that might be available this offseason I think that AI and Vince might just have the least trade value. I can see teams inquiring about Pierce and TMac before they ask about AI or Vince. Like Vince, AI is always getting injured. To his credit, he does play through pain. However, that willingness to play injured may have contributed to his current decline. This is his already 8th season in the league. I think the pounding that his body his taken over the years is finally catching up with him. You can already see that he's lost some of his explosiveness. Believe it or not, I think that PG might be the best position for him in the long-term. He's still got great vision and court awareness. If he curtailed his shooting and concentrated on passing more I think that he'd make a heck of a PG. He'll still have enough quickness to play that position. Plus, he'll be able to play on the perimeter instead of taking a pounding in the lane. I can see him averaging 15-10 at PG if he really wanted to.


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## VinceCarter15 (Oct 21, 2003)

Well this really doesent seem like something AI would do but if the man is suffering from injuries that are really affecting his game why continue?Why didnt he tell the coach that he wasnt playing to even close to his ability and wants to be benched for rest of game or something


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## Lope31 (Jun 11, 2002)

Well atleast he made up for missing all those games and put up a stellar performance for my BBB.net hoops.sports league team! It's the playoffs!


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## digital jello (Jan 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> He missed his last 18 shots to finish the game.


So tell me, who else is going to shoot the ball? Dalembert? Thomas? Snow? 

This roster is sorry, they need everything they can get out of AI.

You do know he was playing hurt, right? There have been no indications in this thread that you've recognized his playing through pain, therefore I assume you have no idea why he shot so poorly.

Instead of rolling your eyes, maybe you should give him some props for going out there and trying to help his team. There are many others in this league who would have sat their overpaid asses on the bench and watched his team get punished by the opposition.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

Iverson is still the best shooting guard since Michael Jordan.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> Iverson is still the best *shooting* guard since Michael Jordan.


You're damn right he is.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>digital jello</b>!
> 
> 
> So tell me, who else is going to shoot the ball? Dalembert? Thomas? Snow?
> ...


C'mon digital jello, that doesn't mean that he has to miss 18 shots in a row. I watched that damn game and I can see he is playing through pain but he is still horribly forcing all kinds of shots. Why not be a decoy in that situation and get the teammates involved?

The teammates obviously didn't shoot worse than 2/21. That is pretty pathetic. Iverson is not above criticism.:no:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> I can see him averaging 15-10 at PG if he really wanted to.


More like 25 and 10 if he wanted to.(or more like if his teammates didn't suck hard.)

He did have nice assist and rebound numbers last night. So he did try and contribute in other ways than just shooting.

Iverson is still one of maybe 3-4 guys who can get 50 points and 15 assists on any given night.

And I don't buy that he is slowing down.

Keep in mind. He did the whole summer olympic qualifying. That has added wear to him this season.

I don't think he's declining and breaking down as much as he is just tired right now. Tired in body and spirit. The losing and the coaches have had a negative effect on him.


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

How can u miss 18 in a row that is terrible the only reason he should do that is if he was having a bad shooting night with his left hand. He can play but there are no excusses for that.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> More like 25 and 10 if he wanted to.


That's really rare. Who was the last player to average 25ppg and 10apg?


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

Maybe Tiny Archibald.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Starbury03</b>!
> Maybe Tiny Archibald.


He did it in 1972-1973 averaging 34ppg and 11apg!

There may others, but not many.


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

The Big O had to have done it. Oscar had five 30 10 seasons.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> I don't think he's declining and breaking down as much as he is just tired right now. Tired in body and spirit. The losing and the coaches have had a negative effect on him.


Another interpretation of his troubles with coaches:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4432854/


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

He averaged 23 and 7.5 his rookie year.
He's doing 27 and 6.6 this year.
Surely playing point on a team with a touch more talent he could hedge closer to a 25 and 10 year.

Stephon Marbury is doing about 20 and 10 this year.

25 and 10 might be a stretch. Especially in today's NBA. But I just thought 15 and 10 was very low for Iverson. Unless he's playing point for the Lakers or Spurs I don't see his ppg dropping that much and his apg only rising by 3-4.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Another interpretation of his troubles with coaches:
> ...


That's such a terrible article. I couldn't even read it all the way through. Lines like "Allen Iverson is a sissy" tend to lose one his credibilty as a proffessional.

And what's funny about the trouble with coaches is that it is trouble with Chris Ford, because Ford is auditioning for his next job, not doing anything for the Sixers, and Iverson knows it. Iverson didn't want Ayers fired. That was Big Dog Robinson and Aaron Mckie. Iverson was made Ayers got fired and even more mad that he wasn't even told about it before it happened.

And then Chris Ford comes in and starts pulling his ego trip, and now the Sixers are going to hell in a handbasket. I can't even watch their games anymore. I used to love watching the Sixers. But Iverson is rarely playing this year, the team around him has no heart save for Dahlembert, and sometimes Snow. It's all very sad and pathetic. Who knew that bringing Big Dog Robinson on your team automatically doomed your fates. But that's what has happened.

Do you think Robinson ever gets sick of going to teams and ruining them? I don't. Where's the professional pride? I don't know if there's a bigger loser.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

2 of freakin 21.....:no: 


You've got to be kidding me....he doesn't show up to support his team when injured, and then he comes back and shoots 21 shoots, while making *2*. Iverson has been putting up some nice assist numbers, but he still shoots the ball way too much. 


And his injury isn't an excuse for this kind of crappy performance. Either 

A) Don't play

or

B) Pass the ball


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Another interpretation of his troubles with coaches:
> ...


This guy who wrote this article obviously hates Iverson. Iverson is so overrated he lead a team to the finals that had no real 2nd scorer and was the only team to actually beat the Lakers that year, oh yea he won the MVP that season. Iverson gets 27 points and 6.6 assists a game and leads the league in steals but I guess all Michael Ventre can see is the 39% shooting, which shows he has a personal vendeta against AI.

Its funny how Steve McNair is considered tough because he doesn't practice all week long because of an injury but then plays great on Sunday. But AI plays hurt all the time and misses a practice here and there, but never makes the excuse that he missed it because he was hurt, and to this guy he's a "sissy." If he were to call in and say his knee hurts too much or his shoulder is bothering him, he would be doing nothing wrong, but like I said he makes no excuses for missing practice. 

But I do think he should attend practice if he is able too, but he's not the worst guy in the world because he misses a few practices. 

Iverson's main problem with Ford has nothing to do with Ford, it was the way the organization handled everything. AI wasn't even told that Ayers was going to be fired, he definitely has earned that right. The practice he missed at Denver, he missed because his flight was late, and he did call the someone in the organization. He didn't call Ford because he didn't have a cell phone # for him so he couldn't get directly in contact with him. So it wasn't like he said F him he's not important enough.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> 
> This guy who wrote this article obviously hates Iverson. Iverson is so overrated he lead a team to the finals that had no real 2nd scorer and was the only team to actually beat the Lakers that year, oh yea he won the MVP that season. Iverson gets 27 points and 6.6 assists a game and leads the league in steals but I guess all Michael Ventre can see is the 39% shooting, which shows he has a personal vendeta against AI.
> ...




I completely agree with your McNair/Iverson comparison concerning the injuries, but Iverson takes more heat because he criticizes his teammates on a weekly basis. He says guy aren't playing with enough heart, then he fails to show up for practice after the all-star break, then fails to show up for a game to support his teammates. 


If Iverson wouldn't always complain about his teammates and coaches, I think he would be getting even more respect and credit. But since he says one thing, then does another, it's hard to make excuses for the guy.


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## MentalPowerHouse (Oct 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>digital jello</b>!
> 
> 
> So tell me, who else is going to shoot the ball? Dalembert? Thomas? Snow?
> ...


Sometimes it is better for the team if you take yourself out than play through an injury.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Weekly basis? He complained about his teammates playing with no heart once. And he was absolutely right. It's calling a spade a spade. And they all know it. He has never been one to disrespect his teammates and talk poorly about them, especially to the media. That was a big deal for him to come out like that. Don't get it twisted like that's what he is always doing. His teammates as well as the rest of the players in the league respect Iverson. The only people who make an issue out of the few times he has missed a practice are news hounds with an agenda.

I don't know why some in the media want so badly to classify him as dumb, lazy and having an attitude. Where on earth would they ever come up with those attributes? What possible stereotype could they possibly be trying to play to? I don't know.:no: 

I would love to see this guy call Iverson a wimp or a sissy to his face. It's fun to talk tough over the internet. But he would never say that to Iverson's face. Hell...he would never say it to anyone in Philly.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with some of what your saying, but I wouldn't say he does one thing then does another. But you are definitely right, if he didn't make those comments nobody would look to bash him every chance they got. 

I remember the Hornets played at Miami, Mashburn was in Miami, and didn't bother to even stop by practice and say wassup to his teammates. But did Mashburn catch any heat? NO. I think Iverson gets a lot of unfair criticism because of his personality and his appearance, but other players do exactly the same thing and get very little mention of it.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> You're damn right he is.


You're not clever at all. I was saying he's the best 2 guard since Michael Jordan.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> You're not clever at all. I was saying he's the best 2 guard since Michael Jordan.


I know what you were saying.


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## XStitchesX (Jun 8, 2003)

Doesn't really surprise me even though he is already one of the worse shooters in nba history he might beat Bob Cousy for the worse ever.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Weekly basis? He complained about his teammates playing with no heart once. And he was absolutely right. It's calling a spade a spade. And they all know it. He has never been one to disrespect his teammates and talk poorly about them, especially to the media. That was a big deal for him to come out like that. Don't get it twisted like that's what he is always doing. His teammates as well as the rest of the players in the league respect Iverson. The only people who make an issue out of the few times he has missed a practice are news hounds with an agenda.
> ...




Obviously, "a weekly basis" was just an exaggeration. If the guy complained on a weekly basis, everybody would hate him. 



Now, as far as him criticizing his teammates, I don't have a problem with it except....is he perfect? He's by far the best thing on that team right now, but he has his faults too, and you don't see or hear his teammates trashing him all the time. The biggest problem I have with Iverson complaining about his teammates is that the guy misses practices and games for what? Is the team so bad without him that he has a legitimate reason to miss a game? Iverson is one tough SOB, but the easiest thing to do is to blame someone else *publicly*. Even if it isn't Iverson's fault for the team's bad play, he should either suck it up and not say anything, or publicly say what *HE* needs to do to help the team win. Again, Iverson is not without his faults, but again, he's not the reason the team is struggling.


To me, criticizing your teammates, even rightfully so, loses credibility when you don't even show up for practice and games yourself. He expects his teammates to sacrifice themselves for the team, but is missing practices and games non-excused considered sacrificing yourself for the team? I mean, he doesn't show up for practices, so he gets fined, then he whines about how he is being treated. How are you treating your teammates and the franchise by not even showing up for practice, and not even showing up to support your teammates at a game? I just think there is a lot of double-standards for the guy. He's a very good player, and he is seemingly a one-man-team, but criticizing your teammates and coaches publicly, and then not showing up for practice and a game just isn't good for the team.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> That's such a terrible article. I couldn't even read it all the way through. Lines like "Allen Iverson is a sissy" tend to lose one his credibilty as a proffessional.


Those who take offense to him calling Iverson a "sissy" seem to have not understood what he was saying.

He agreed that Iverson was *physically* tough. His "sissy" comment had nothing to do with Iverson's ability to play with pain.

His point was that Iverson is willing to be a tough guy in front of cameras, when he will clearly get great adulation for it, but he doesn't do much, off-stage, to bring the team together...he's not even willing to call up his head coach when he's going to skip something.

And what relevance is there to whether he would say it to Iverson's face? Unless you can physically beat up the other person, you can't hold a negative opinion about them? Whether he's right about Iverson is not relevant to whether he'd say it to Iverson's face.

Iverson has *such* a following on this site that he's almost held in such regard that he cann't be criticized in any way. I guess his (relative) tinyness and willingness to play hurt causes people to feel protective of him as well as to love him.

I like Ivy. I think it's great that he plays with such guts, in a big man's game. I don't agree with the *tone* of the article, which is too harsh.

But it's perfectly valid to note that Iverson seems to be a fairly immature fellow. Not calling his head coach, being willing to skip practices, making homophobic raps, being unable to work with any other scoring threats (is it pure coincidence that *every* scoring threat put alongside Iverson ends up failing as an experiments? Maybe there's a reason, related to Iverson, that he never has any talent around him).

I'll continue to enjoy watching him as a player, and continue to admire him as a gusty individual, but I still don't believe he's a great franchise player. Some of that is not his fault (his size), but some of it is.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After he made his comments I believe he went out and hung up a 40 point 10+ assist game. So he's doing what he can for the team.

Have you had the misfortune of watching the Sixers this season? The problems that Iverson was referring to had been festering for awhile. And he had tried the other avenue. I think you are overstating his missing a practice and a game for health reasons with regards to it casting aspersions on his ability to be a leader for the team.

And not going to the game, it's not like he was pulling a Vince Carter and going to a Nelly concert. It was a health issue.(Some sort of stomach problem, and again, have you watched the Sixers? Having to sit on the bench and watch them would only aggravate any stomach problems Iverson was having.)

And yes there are double-standards. There are always double-standards for every superstar ever. That's the breaks. It's nothing new. But with regards to Iverson the media would like us to think it's new. I don't think you even want to find out how much someone like Wilt Chamberlain went to practice.

But again. The practice problems are overblown. He's not consistently missing them. 

We'll see what happens in Philly. I think Chris Ford has made a bad situation even worse. And for the situation being that bad in the first place I blame Glen Robinson, and amazingly Aaron Mckie.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> After he made his comments I believe he went out and hung up a 40 point 10+ assist game. So he's doing what he can for the team.
> ...


Practice? We're talking 'bout practice? (Sorry, I had to throw in this corny jab at AI)


I suppose I'm overreacting to missing practices or one game, but I only mentioned it in regards of him calling out his teammates for not having heart. To me, if you step out in front of the media and criticize your teammates, then the least you can do is show up for practice. Heart isn't only displayed in the actual games, it is also displayed in practice. I'm not trying to say that because he missed a practice or a game, he is not a leader, since I don't know what goes on in closed doors in the 76ers locker room. 


And yes, I have had the "pleasure" of watching the 76ers play this season, since they do play every other day on national TV. Yes, it's pitiful watching Iverson vs another team, but whining publicly can only hurt the situation, since it seems none of his teammates have responded in a positive way to his comments.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Those who take offense to him calling Iverson a "sissy" seem to have not understood what he was saying.
> ...


My offense was definitely at the word choice. And I do admit to skewing his arguement a little bit because I was very offput by the writing. You're right it is a point that can be made. But to make it the way it was made was clumsy and that made me disregard the entire point. The guy is obviously both a moron(who calls people a sissy or a wimp in this day and age?) and biased against Iverson.

I think the word choice is trying to act tough, because when you say Iverson is a wimp or a sissy, regardless of the context, it is implying that he doesn't measure up to your standard of toughness/ and with the term sissy, manhood. And them's fightin' words. If the guy wants to compare dick sizes with Iverson he needs to go to the locker room and keep it out of print.

As far as Iverson not being as tough off the game floor as he is on it, I think there's two sides to every story that is spun about Iverson. One guy says Iverson didn't call Ford. Another says Iverson didn't have Fords number and he called Philly managment. And he was already upset about Ayers getting fired. Anything after that is just fallout. I think Iverson IS trying to get Ford fired. But I think Billy King IS trying to get Iverson traded. And Ford IS trying to get a job somewhere else. It's one big mess of power struggle that will only be resolved by either Iverson getting traded or Billy King being fired. Until that happens the Sixers will continue to spiral and Iverson will feel less and less inclined to play with the injuries he has played with in the past. That's the article to write. Talk about this from all sides and show it for what it is. But this biased crap, I have no time for. Iverson's been in the league long enough that I've indoctrinated myself against reading this kind of garbage. It's been the same article in one way or another since he was in high school. Until people want to see it from all angles and see the wider picture then it just doesn't intrest me. Beyond simply infuriating me.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

And I appologize that my thoughts on this are running all over the place. I haven't really organized them and I'm kind of distracted right now. If any of that made sense, then jolly you.:bbanana:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, I have had the "pleasure" of watching the 76ers play this season, since they do play every other day on national TV. Yes, it's pitiful watching Iverson vs another team, but whining publicly can only hurt the situation, since it seems none of his teammates have responded in a positive way to his comments.


I think I agree somewhat with what you're trying to say. Because it is true that generally when you air grievences it hurts more than it hurts. (See T-Mac, Kobe, Shaq...ect. No one really gets away with it).

But I don't think it really hurt any of his teammates feelings to the degree that some of T-Mac or Kobe's comments may have. I think for the most part Iverson is VERY well liked on his team and in his city. And that his teammates understood(though I don't think they listened) where he was coming from.

I don't think it really became the issue that the media thought it would be when they reported it.

As I said, the story right now, the real story, seems to be one of a power struggle within the Sixers organization.


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

Everyone was talking about his injury not mentioning that the knicks played good D on him. He got hit more times than George W. Bush looked up a word in the dictionary.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NYKBaller</b>!
> Everyone was talking about his injury not mentioning that the knicks played good D on him. He got hit more times than George W. Bush looked up a word in the dictionary.


I mentioned it somewhere.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I know they lost tonight, but consider me shutting up about AI.

32 points, 9 assists and 4 rebounds.


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## digital jello (Jan 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> I know they lost tonight, but consider me shutting up about AI.
> 
> 32 points, 9 assists and 4 rebounds.


Yay.


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## Kunlun (Jun 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> I know they lost tonight, but consider me shutting up about AI.
> 
> 32 points, 9 assists and 4 rebounds.


13-22 shooting by the way.


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