# Kobe set to break all time record!



## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

for turnovers!

If he plays just 77 games this year, at his current rate of turnovers he will break the ALL-TIME record of 366, set by center Artis Gilmore in 1977-78.

He has a legit shot at busting the 400 mark, quite a feat given that in the entire history of the NBA only 3 players have ever surpassed 350.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

Oh man I smell another long thread coming.... but that's still a very interesting stat, nice find.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

and the homers weep...


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## snowmt (Jan 28, 2003)

good baiting...


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Drewbs</b>!
> and the homers weep...


LMAO, that was actually hilarious


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

people are stretching so much for reasons to bash bryant its pathetic. he's turning the ball over needlessly quite a bit this season, yes... but if they would maybe trade butler and filler fr a competant point gaurd i wouldnt expect him to turn the ball over more than 2.5 times a game.


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## Brian34Cook (Mar 26, 2003)

This doesnt really say anything except he handles the ball more than he should.. Offensive fouls dont help turnovers either.. And when Mihm and others dont catch easy passes that also increases his TO's..

Not to mention he's dishing out 7 assists a game (8TH in NBA : 2ND in WEST )..


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

This is why I laugh at the people who say this is his best season.... that was a couple of years ago.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>snowmt</b>!
> good baiting...


Poor baiting. I bet everyone who read this thread title knew exactly what he was getting at before opening the thread. 


BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Poor baiting. I bet everyone who read this thread title knew exactly what he was getting at before opening the thread.
> ...


:laugh: :laugh:


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

I know the Kobe fans hate this stat, but it is interesting.....not that it is Kobe, but the stat itself is interesting. If it was Brevin Knight instead of Kobe, people wouldn't look down upon this thread.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Poor baiting. I bet everyone who read this thread title knew exactly what he was getting at before opening the thread.
> ...


This is true. Who doesn't know about this record that Kobe is threatening?

Mitch Kupchak needs to get off his *** ang get a real point guard. Kobe isn't anymore of a point guard than Lebron or Dwayne Wade.

The Lakers have a glut of talented 3's, how can they not find a deal for a decent point?


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> This is true. Who doesn't know about this record that Kobe is threatening?
> ...


They have the great Chucky Atkins.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

it doesn't matter who their point is if their philosophy is going to be to get the ball to kobe and let him create.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Poor baiting. I bet everyone who read this thread title knew exactly what he was getting at before opening the thread.
> ...



It worked on you just fine.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*I wrote that I knew what it was before I opened the thread?*



> Originally posted by <b>sliccat</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> It worked on you just fine.


No it didn't.


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## mavsman (Jun 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tooeasy</b>!
> people are stretching so much for reasons to bash bryant its pathetic. he's turning the ball over needlessly quite a bit this season, yes... but if they would maybe trade butler and filler fr a competant point gaurd i wouldnt expect him to turn the ball over more than 2.5 times a game.


Damnit, I knew it was actually Caron Butler knocking it out of Kobe's hands and causing the turnovers.

They need to trade him immediately


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

The other guys with big turnover seasons-

Michealray Richardson (359)- a very creative point guard in his soph season, first as a starter, 24 years old and notching over 10 apg.

Ricky Sobers (352) in his first year as a starting PG for a terrible Pacers team.

Barkley, (350) at 22, in his first year as a starter.

Reggie Theus, (348) at 23, in his first year as a starter.

Kevin Porter, (348) notching 11 apg for a Nets team that finished 31 games back.

How does a Superstar playing in his 9th season join this list???


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

wow, i didn't expect this at all. he is averaging almost 5 TO's a game.. that's a lot of turnovers...


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

This is just stupid: Rudy T needs to grow a backbone and let Odom handle the rock more. Who know Kobe might balk at having to give up the ball but it's the coach's job to tell him he will be more fresh for the 4th quarter, his stats would be better, etc. etc. I don't see any reason why Odom, a terrific point forward who when young was compared to Magic, shouldn't be setting up the Lakers offense


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> for turnovers!
> 
> If he plays just 77 games this year, at his current rate of turnovers he will break the ALL-TIME record of 366, set by center Artis Gilmore in 1977-78.
> ...


if he played 82 games this season, which he probably will since he stays injury free, he is on pace to get 389 turnovers, but look at allen iverson he is averaging 4.24 t.o.'s this year and 4.35 last year, but nobody talks about that because he only played 48 games last year, yeat he was on pace to get 357 turnover but why dont we look at the effiency rating kobe is first in t.o.'s and iverson is second but, in effiency rating kobe is 7th and iverson is 11th,Richard Jefferson is third in turnover's and 22nd in effiency,Dwyane Wade is 4th in turnover's and 8th in effiency, 

so please man who the **** cares about his turnover and least he isn't suspended for the season or has his team at 11-20 and has missed a month of play like somebody


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: Re: Kobe set to break all time record!*



> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> 
> 
> if he played 82 games this season, which he probably will since he stays injury free, he is on pace to get 389 turnovers, but look at allen iverson he is averaging 4.24 t.o.'s this year and 4.35 last year, but nobody talks about that because he only played 48 games last year, yeat he was on pace to get 357 turnover but why dont we look at the effiency rating kobe is first in t.o.'s and iverson is second but, in effiency rating kobe is 7th and iverson is 11th,Richard Jefferson is third in turnover's and 22nd in effiency,Dwyane Wade is 4th in turnover's and 8th in effiency,
> ...


This is ridiculous: TO's are very important and that's why assist/to is a good stat. For example, it's obvious Richard Jefferson shouldn't be handling the rock because he's a turnover machine when he's the primary ballhandler. I like RJ and he is good baller but that team needs Jason Kidd to handle the ball. 

Kobe playing better then I expected this year but to be a great player (on the level of perimeter players like MJ and Magic) like you want him to be he needs to cut down on his TO's. This is not a knock on Kobe's personality, Kobe's greatness, or saying he is worse then another player. Again I blame the coach as much as Bryant for this. Who cares if Atkins sucks, Odom should be point the attack for some of the game. There is no excuse IMHO for Odom not to handle the ball a lot more especially early in the game to conserve Bryant.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

nice look up... i am amazed... but kobe is still doing better than i expected him to... sometimes he does things that dont show up on the stat sheet.... he has alot of energy plays... but thats also what he gets paid 120 million dollars to do..... he's stilla great player


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

yeah^ good point odom doesn't take the ball himself, he could take it up the court easily no other pf could steal it from him


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Didn't I already explain why turnovers were the most overrated stat around!?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Turnovers matter *A LOT* when Kobe is leading the league in them. If he wasn't? It would be just another one of the thousands of stats that are meaningless when you look at them alone.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

I can't believe some people are just writing this off like it is nothing. We are talking the All-Time record for turnovers. Blaming it on the fact that he doesn't play with a good PG is a joke. Chucky is much better than what some other superstars in recent years have had to work with and I don't see them breaking the All-Time turnover record. 

So many hypocrits around here. If it was Tmac headed for demolishing this record, you can bet your sweet bippy there would be a lot of people in this thread saying the exact opposite of what they are now.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

trade kobe right now


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> trade kobe right now


How does Cuttino Mobley and Pat Garrity sound?


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I can't believe some people are just writing this off like it is nothing. We are talking the All-Time record for turnovers. Blaming it on the fact that he doesn't play with a good PG is a joke. Chucky is much better than what some other superstars in recent years have had to work with and I don't see them breaking the All-Time turnover record.
> 
> So many hypocrits around here. If it was Tmac headed for demolishing this record, you can bet your sweet bippy there would be a lot of people in this thread saying the exact opposite of what they are now.


well tmac also has bob sura david wesley and jon barry bringing the ball up the court while kobe only has chucky, and tmac pretty much plays sf for the rockets while kobe pretty much plays pg, so while both are listed as sg kobe is really a pg/sg and mcgrady is a sg/sf


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I can't believe some people are just writing this off like it is nothing. We are talking the All-Time record for turnovers. Blaming it on the fact that he doesn't play with a good PG is a joke. Chucky is much better than what some other superstars in recent years have had to work with and I don't see them breaking the All-Time turnover record.
> 
> So many hypocrits around here. If it was Tmac headed for demolishing this record, you can bet your sweet bippy there would be a lot of people in this thread saying the exact opposite of what they are now.


Honestly, I have never criticized a player for turnovers, never would either, I have better things to do and more important things to consider.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> How does Cuttino Mobley and Pat Garrity sound?


too much. kobe for deshaun stevenson and a player to be named later


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> 
> 
> well tmac also has bob sura david wesley and jon barry bringing the ball up the court while kobe only has chucky, and tmac pretty much plays sf for the rockets while kobe pretty much plays pg, so while both are listed as sg kobe is really a pg/sg and mcgrady is a sg/sf


Tmac was the entire offense in Orlando and played with greats like Ty Lue, Jacque Vaughn, Reece Gaines, and others in Orlando.

The best PG Orlando had last year was the two weeks they had Rod Strickland. Tmac was the primary ball-handler for most of his 4 years in Orlando.

I can't really speak on this year because I have barely seen the Rockets play, but Bob Sura, David Wesley (who they just now got), and Jon Barry are nothing to get excited about and none of them is a true PG.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> 
> too much. kobe for deshaun stevenson and a player to be named later


Nevermind. With Kobe and Steve Francis on the court together, other teams would outscore Orlando on their turnovers alone.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Tmac was the entire offense in Orlando and played with greats like Ty Lue, Jacque Vaughn, Reece Gaines, and others in Orlando.
> ...


4 words: t-mac never played pg 

2 words: KOBE DOES


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> 
> 
> 4 words: t-mac never played pg
> ...



4 Words and a period: Not true at all.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

tmac brought the ball up the court on fastbreaks and off the other team's misses, but he didn't bring it up after the opposing team scored unless he was shooting good or it was a close game


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Who cares? Kobe is still the best player in the NBA despite his high TO numbers this year.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>thug_immortal8</b>!
> tmac brought the ball up the court on fastbreaks and off the other team's misses, but he didn't bring it up after the opposing team scored unless he was shooting good or it was a close game


So you say. But you are wrong. Having watched 80% or so of the games Orlando played the last four years, I think I might know what I am talking about. Tmac played PG in every bit the same sense that Kobe is playing PG this year.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Kobe, so far, has carried a very mediocre team to the 7th seed in a very difficult western conference. Thats a stat thats hard to argue with.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> Kobe, so far, has carried a very mediocre team to the 7th seed in a very difficult western conference. Thats a stat thats hard to argue with.


Same goes for 29,7,7.


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## BallStateCards (Oct 14, 2004)

Its highly unlikely that he keeps up with his current pace. There are 82 games in a season, and it is _very_ difficult for me to comprehend how a player with the work ethic of Kobe can not turn his current pace around. He'll get better as the season goes on like everyone else.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> Kobe, so far, has carried a very mediocre team to the 7th seed in a very difficult western conference. Thats a stat thats hard to argue with.


I agree. The Lakers haven't looked that great on the court and they are still 16-12 and 7th in the west. You can't take that away from Kobe. Kobe has done a decent job of leading. Maybe Rudy T should be the blame for not getting Odom the ball enough?

The one thing I knocked Kobe on was dribbling the ball too much, but maybe it was Rudy T's hairbrain scheme.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>madskillz1_99</b>!
> Who cares? Kobe is still the best player in the NBA despite his high TO numbers this year.


That is completely subjective. I would rather have Tim Duncan on my team than Kobe. In fact, Kobe's low fg% and turnovers are precisely the reason that many don't consider him the best player in the league. It doesn't matter if he gets to the line alot, him shooting a lot of bad shots is just as bad as turning the ball over, along with dominating the ball for at least 40 minutes of the game.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ClayVTrainum</b>!
> Its highly unlikely that he keeps up with his current pace. There are 82 games in a season, and it is _very_ difficult for me to comprehend how a player with the work ethic of Kobe can not turn his current pace around. He'll get better as the season goes on like everyone else.


I agree with this, I don't think he could possibly keep up this rate of turnovers. I do wonder why people are trying to defend this as something that is of no concern. For the most part I think of excessive turnovers are a reflection of a player that is trying to do too much. It is often a reflection of a lack of confidence in your teammates and shows a lack of good decision making. I have not seen many games that the Lakers have played this season but any time you threaten an all time record it is notable especially one like that turnover record.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>madskillz1_99</b>!
> Who cares? Kobe is still the best player in the NBA despite his high TO numbers this year.


Stop being such a homer: you're honestly telling me you think Kobe is better then TD and KG? *edited for the correct best players*

Kobe is having a great season it's OK for his game still have a flaw or two. He's simply not point (just like R. Jefferson shouldn't be handling the ball) and it's as much as his coaches fault as his IMO. Unless of course he demanding to handle the ball over somebody like Odom. Who knows since we aren't able to see inside Laker practices. I'm willing to blame Rudy T since he simply doesn't seem to be great X and O guy


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Iverson and Kobe are both turning it over a lot. 

It's eerily similar to Jerry Stackhouse in 00-01 after the Hill trade. Oh, he was THE scorer. 29.8 PPG, 3.9 RPG, 5.1 APG. But .402 FGP and 4.08 TOPG.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

True baiting.

True thread, true scrubs as well.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> 
> 
> Stop being such a homer: you're honestly telling me you think Kobe is better then TD and Duncan?


Well, either he HAS to be better than both TD and Duncan, or you're talking about Tony Delk. 

Ducan and KG don't have their flaws too? KG hasn't lead his team ANYWHERE this year, and Duncan can't hit foul shots, and sometimes seems to fade in the clutch.

No player is perfect, and to try and disguise that would be foolish. But Kobe is just as good as any player in the league today.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

-


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> 
> For the most part I think of excessive turnovers are a reflection of a player that is trying to do too much. It is often a reflection of a lack of confidence in your teammates and shows a lack of good decision making.


:yes:

As far as those who say he can't keep up the TO pace:

Since Dec 1, he has been worse.

74 turnovers in the last 14 games from Dec 1 to last night's.

That is 5.3 per game.



And if you think saying Kobe's TOs are not that much worse than Iverson's is a defence of his play...

:rofl:


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## Ps!ence_Fiction (Aug 1, 2004)

It's funny to see only the people who love Kobe defending him, most of the time if something is wrong or is blown out of perspective, all knowledgable basketball fans will argue it, but this time it is not happening. Kobe is averaging a lot of turnovers and is shooting a low percentage and there is no real way to argue that, T-Mac had the ball in his hands almost the entire time he was in Orlando and never had this low FG% or this high turnovers (and don't say he had a better team or point guard because his teams were always worse and his point guards weren't any better, Tyronne Lue, Jacque Vaughn...) and the West is tough, from the 6th seed up, when you look at the teams who are below the Lakers, there is no great teams, Houston (T-Mac and Yao haven't meshed yet), LA Clippers (starting to fall back to Clipper territory), Golden State, Memphis, New Orleans, Portland, Denver (this really surpised me, they have a good team, they just can't get it together) and Utah. All of those teams are behind the Lakers and that really isn't a huge accomplisment, and to whoever said KG hasn't lead his T'Wolves anywhere, the T'Wolves have a better record then the Lakers


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ps!ence_Fiction</b>!
> ...and to whoever said KG hasn't lead his T'Wolves anywhere, the T'Wolves have a better record then the Lakers


KG has twice the supporting cast. Spreewell + Cassell + Wally > Odom + Mihm + Atkins

If we're not going to talk about supporting casts, then Kobe has 3 rings already, where KG has yet to make a finals.


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## Ps!ence_Fiction (Aug 1, 2004)

Neither Sprewell or Cassell are playing that well this season, one NBA scout said at times it seems as if they don't even care, especially on defense, and they are both starting to show signs of age, Wally Szczerbiak is a good player though, I'm pretty sure KG would much rather have Lamar Odom and Caron Butler (who is better then Mihm and Atkins) and you make it seem like Mihm is terrible, he has played well this season (he's averaging 10 ppg/7 rpg/1.5 bpg in only 26 mpg, and in all of the games where he plays 30+ minutes he is averaging 14 ppg/11.7 rpg/2.2 bpg, and he is capable of playing 30+ minutes because his play does not decrease when he plays that many minutes and he has yet to foul out this season)

PG - Troy Hudson
SG - Caron Butler
SF - Lamar Odom
PF - Kevin Garnett
C - Chris Mihm
6th man - Eddie Griffin

this looks better then...

PG - Sam Cassell
SG - Latrell Sprewell
SF - Wally Szczerbiak
PF - Kevin Garnett
C - Michael Olowokandi
6th man - Troy Hudson


both Butler and Odom work hard and like to play no matter where they are, Cassell and Sprewell are half assing their season so far and don't really seem to have any drive

as for the Kobe has 3 rings comment, that is talking about supporting casts even though you said not talking about supporting casts, he wouldn't have won a single ring without Shaq


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ps!ence_Fiction</b>!
> It's funny to see only the people who love Kobe defending him, most of the time if something is wrong or is blown out of perspective, all knowledgable basketball fans will argue it, but this time it is not happening. Kobe is averaging a lot of turnovers and is shooting a low percentage and there is no real way to argue that


What is there to argue? Nobody argues a fact. Kobe is averaging a lot of turnovers and a lower field goal percentage than usual, so be it. What people *WILL* argue, is that field goal percentage and turnovers aren't the end all stats that determine the calibur of a basketball player, like you and others imply. 

I mean, the whole jist of your post is "Its funny that the people who usually defend Kobe can't anymore, because there is no denying that his field goal percentage and turnovers aren't good"

I'd sacrafice a few percentage points in those categories for a guy who goes all out every game, does all the intangibles, and plays great defense. Guys like McGrady, Pierce and Iverson don't do those things, and thats why their impact on the court isn't that great. Its why Kobe leads the league in +/- ratings, and McGrady/Pierce/Iverson are 40th or worse. They just don't have impact like Kobe does.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>madskillz1_99</b>!
> 
> 
> Same goes for 29,7,7.


at barely 40% shooting and 4.7 turnovers per game. Not the best player in the NBA...


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ps!ence_Fiction</b>!
> Neither Sprewell or Cassell are playing that well this season, one NBA scout said at times it seems as if they don't even care, especially on defense, and they are both starting to show signs of age, Wally Szczerbiak is a good player though, I'm pretty sure KG would much rather have Lamar Odom and Caron Butler (who is better then Mihm and Atkins) and you make it seem like Mihm is terrible, he has played well this season (he's averaging 10 ppg/7 rpg/1.5 bpg in only 26 mpg, and in all of the games where he plays 30+ minutes he is averaging 14 ppg/11.7 rpg/2.2 bpg, and he is capable of playing 30+ minutes because his play does not decrease when he plays that many minutes and he has yet to foul out this season)
> 
> PG - Troy Hudson
> ...


Effort is a characterization of leadership, don't you think?

I see Mihm and Odom and Atkins and everyone giving it what they have. For some it might not be as great as others, but Kobe has this team believing in themselves, and its been showing.

If KG's teammates don't care, and he is the captain and best player, I think that says something about Kevin then.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

I also agree Kobe is probably the best player in the league. He's turning it over without a legit pg or any one else really capable of creating offense for anyone. 

Kobe like KG has too much responsibility for their respective teams. 

Duncan doesn't always have to be his teams leading scorer or passer everynight nor does he have to create all the offense for that team. 

KG and Kobe have to do most everything. Create offense for others, be the best defender and lead the team in scoring. 

Kobe has proven this season to be a real good team leader as well. 

To's as a stat is not as important for a shooting guard as it is for a pg. 

There are alot of guards who turn it over but still manage to be very productive on their teams. 

Sometimes its more of how that team is built rather than the failure of that particular player. 

Kobe needs to get the to's down but when you're forced to handle the ball that often it's gonna be hard to avoid.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> What is there to argue? Nobody argues a fact. Kobe is averaging a lot of turnovers and a lower field goal percentage than usual, so be it. What people *WILL* argue, is that field goal percentage and turnovers aren't the end all stats that determine the calibur of a basketball player, like you and others imply.
> ...


Very good argument , I was about to mention the same things. 

Prior to this season Kobe's fg% was never an issue for those that sought to discredit him now its the rage to talk fg %. 

fg% alone isn't the only scale to judge who the best shooters are in the league. 

Lebron shoots a higher % because he takes higher % shots because he has a pg to get him the ball in easier scoring postions plus he cheats and plays the passing lanes getting lots of easy run outs in transition also he's the wing filler on the break with McInnis handiling the ball. 

Kobe is usually the guy bring it up on the break not the wing filler. 

Again how your team is structured and how you're utilized on a team determines how you turn out with to's and fg%. 

Shaq, Curry and other bigs who lead the league in fg% aren't better shooters but guys who take higher % shots.

Kobe doesn't have the threats on his team offensively which enable him to have more room to drive and to take easier shots. 

Thats why the argument is insane. 

Its like looking at MJ without Pippen MJ NEVER played on a team with a .500 record but he's given most of the credit for the Bulls winning. When he only got above the .500 mark when Pippen joined the Bulls. 

Conversly Pippen has played on an above .500 team in Chicago without MJ.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> He's turning it over without a legit pg or any one else really capable of creating offense for anyone.


Sorry, but that excuse just isn't going to fly. There are a lot of guys who have played with bad PGs and a couple of superstars who have played with *terrible/b] PGs in the past few seasons. 





To's as a stat is not as important for a shooting guard as it is for a pg.

Click to expand...

How are turnovers not important? Kobe is on his way to breaking the All-Time turnover record, which means he is about to break a record for giving opposing teams more free possessions in a season than anyone ever has.*


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry, but that excuse just isn't going to fly. There are a lot of guys who have played with bad PGs and a couple of superstars who have played with *terrible/b] PGs in the past few seasons.
> ...


*

lol, he'll have more turnovers than anyone in the history of the league.*


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Drewbs</b>!
> 
> 
> lol, he'll have more turnovers than anyone in the history of the league.


It took you till the 60th post in the thread to figure out what this topic is about?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

I don't think Kobe is the best player in the league, I've thought that Duncan and Garnett are the two best for a long time, and they still are. Kobe is right there at 3rd though, with Shaq's decline.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Kobe's TO numbers are horrific, for sure...

And the reason is pretty simple: he is a SG being asked to play PG and be the main (or, as one could put it, sole) offensive option...

The result is plainly visible...

Change the offensive strategy, and the numbers will also change...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

As far as I can tell, Kobe's also going to break the record for most minutes played and most seconds per possession spent with the ball in a season. Not that those things by themselves excuse 4.69 TOpg. But if he were to average 40 mpg instead of 43-44 and if he were to handle the ball for a couple seconds less per possession, he'd be around 4.0 TOpg (or less) instead of 4.69. His assists would go down too, but they'd still stay above 6.0 anyway. Just food for thought.


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## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

T-Mac, AI, and others have played in offense's more structured to their games the last few years. T-Mac didn't have the best PGs in Orlando, BUT he did have an offense that consisted of him running around screens and catching ball first, putting the defense on it's heels from the onset. Much like AI in his MVP 2001 season. Bringing the ball up to half court and then playing off the ball is totally different than ACTUALLY playing PG in a set offense.

Kobe, on the other hand, IS the PG. Once the ball reaches halfcourt, whether it be he or Atkins bringing it up, he initiates the half-court set as a PG would. The offense consists of Kobe holding the ball and waiting for a pick, going around the pick and shooting, driving, or kicking it out to three point shooters. It's the Rudy T offensive PHILOSOPHY. Rudy T from Day 1 wanted Kobe to do EVERYTHING. Just as he did with Hakeem and Franchise. Hakeem got the ball and scored or kicked it out to three point shooters just standing around waiting for the ball. Much like the Laker offense the first 25 games of the season. 

Kobe, at this juncture of his career, is playing like a 23 yr old Michael Jordan. Dominates the ball, puts up gawdy numbers across the board. And was considered selfish for it. Everyone believed that MJ and Kobe this year, was all about getting their stats. When in actuality it's all about winning. For MJ's early Bulls teams and this year's Lakers to even have a CHANCE of winning, MJ and Kobe HAVE to dominate the ball, so that guys like a Paxson, Craig Hodges or Brian Cook and Chucky Atkins can get a good shot off. Which is why Odom, Butler, and Mihm are ALL having career yrs FG% wise. Not until Doug Collins, I mean Rudy T, takes Kobe off the ball will his TOs go down.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Not until Doug Collins, I mean Rudy T, takes Kobe off the ball will his TOs go down.


:laugh: I really did laugh at that. The Collins part. :yes:

Good post by the way.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> I don't think Kobe is the best player in the league, I've thought that Duncan and Garnett are the two best for a long time, and they still are. Kobe is right there at 3rd though, with Shaq's decline.


I'm not saying I think he's the best player either, but to say there is no case for it just nonsense.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

What is important in basketball is scoring more than your opposition.

To do that, you want to score on a very high percentage of your possessions.

A missed shot that is a possession you did not score on. 

A turnover is a possession you did not score on.

They are the ultimate examples of FAILURE in basketball.

Anyone who says turnovers and FG% aren't important knows nothing about basketball.

It is true that Kobe is handling the ball for a ton of minutes. I think that is really the point of the criticism. Share the ball, win it all.

Incidentally - in the monster games of KG and JO, (47 and 55 points) they both had 3 turnovers. Kobe is putting up 7s and 9s in his 40+ games. It really seems sometimes he would rather give the ball to an opponent than a teammate.

Kobe is taking way too many very difficult treys. If he would play without the ball more, he would get better looks, and not have to put up contested treys from 5' behind the arc. I think he is capable of hitting a very nice percentage if he would stop with the circus shots.

The other thing Kobe does, is he often seems to try for the assist, rather than just making the safe pass out of trouble. 

I personally don't buy the Rudy T thing. I mean, he does seem to tolerate Kobe's play, but that is true even when Kobe goes into one of his rare passing obsessions. But it may be true, it could be Rudy's decision to play stupidly.

It is simply absurd how little Odom touches the ball. He is a very unselfish player who makes great decisions with the ball, and is a mismatch for virtually everyone.

Incidentally, Vince Carter ran the Raps offence for most of the last 3 seasons the way Kobe is this year. He didn't come close to leading the league in turnovers.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> Incidentally, Vince Carter ran the Raps offence for most of the last 3 seasons the way Kobe is this year. He didn't come close to leading the league in turnovers.


Kobe needs to learn Carter catach and shoot shot to become the 35 years old Jordan.

I will go on and say that Kobe is capable of doing shorter catch and shoot shot rather than being Vince who can catch and shoot outside of the 3 point line. But it was few years back when his legs were much stronger.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> It took you till the 60th post in the thread to figure out what this topic is about?


LMAO, that kid is smart that he post pads at the 60th post so a$$ like you dont know his true purposes.

Sorry, a$$ is A$$, there is no way you can be as normal as some here.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*somebody please close this thread.*



> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> LMAO, that kid is smart that he post pads at the 60th post so a$$ like you dont know his true purposes.
> ...


If this isn't a donkey calling a horse an a$$, I don't know what is.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

:laugh: 

Drewbs is a horse?

:grinning:


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

a smart horse who knows when to post pad.


But actually, yeah, it did take for the 60th post before the whole turnover thing kind of registered.


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> What is important in basketball is scoring more than your opposition.
> 
> To do that, you want to score on a very high percentage of your possessions.
> ...


 Great post Viking...what say we go pillage and burn the Staples Center ? Haha, but seriously that's a great little point about Carter, considering how much he was penetrating and how well he did to keep possession...you know I still believe that if he loses the headband and the leg sleeve and actually gets some kicks that look nice, he'll go back to his high flying ways...I don't believe for a second that he's lost his edge....at 27 ? You have GOT to me kidding me.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

fwiw, the lakers, as a team, even with kobe's turnovers and missed shots, are 16th in turnovers, and 9th in ppfga.

they are, though, losing the turnover battle - they don't create turnovers, so they have the worst turnover differential in the league.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> Anyone who says turnovers and FG% aren't important knows nothing about basketball.


There is also a thousand other little stats that are "important" in basketball, and they wouldn't be brought up until Kobe isn't doing well in them. Look at Duncan, look at Shaq, look at Garnett. All of them have troubles with free throws. For Duncan and Shaq, its making them, for Garnett, he doesn't get there enough. Whoever says free throw shooting and getting to the free throw line aren't important knows nothing about basketball. Duncan, KG and Shaq must be horrible, horrible basketball players.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Whatever happened to Duncan's freethrows anyway. A few years ago, wasn't he shooting 80% from the line?


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