# Chapu Will Play For Bulls This Season



## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

*Once Andres Nocioni flew home to Argentina and traveled to the national team's pre-Olympic training camp, he told reporters he plans to play for the Bulls next season.

"Everything is in order to assure that next season I will play for the Chicago Bulls," Nocioni told the Clarin newspaper in Argentina. "I appreciate the kindness that Chicago gave me during my stay. We were very comfortable.

"In Tau, I left my best years and a good group of people," Nocioni said. "It hurts me to leave, but it is an important step I must make.

Bulls general manager John Paxson acknowledged that the 24-year-old Nocioni is the Bulls' top free-agent target. The Bulls are thought to be offering a three-year deal worth $10 million.*

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sports_story.asp?intID=3818553

Great news for Bulls fans. Paxson will have added one more piece. Whether Nocioni becomes a big piece or not remains to be seen. But it appears he got a great bang for his buck.

And if, as John says, Andres was the Bulls top free agent, he can now turn his full attention towards trying to get something done with Jamal. If he can re-sign JC he will have added two of the top 15 free agents (JC @ 11, and Chapu @15), at least according to Chad Ford, to the Bulls rotation for the forseeable future. Combine that with the addition of two lottery picks (Gordon @3 and Deng @7) and Pax will have accomplished what he set out to do this summer...acquire multiple assets.

Presuming everyone stays relatively healthy this year, I like the potential look of our nine man rotation:
*Guards:* Hinrich, Crawford, Gordon.
*SF's:* Nocioni, Deng.
*Power Positions:* Chandler, Curry, Williams, Davis.

Though lacking a little in experience, there's a lot of talent for Scott Skiles to work with.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Great news. I still wonder if he will be able to negotiate any wiggle room about the buyout. For the first time in years I'm excited to see the Bulls' performance at the wing.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Pax says Nocioni will play for the Bulls

Nocioni says Nocioni will play for the Bulls

Tau Ceramica says pay up. At the end of it all, it doesnt really matter what Pax and Nocioni says, it only matters what Tau says. So when that article comes, I think the title of this thread is appropriate. 

In Europe, things operate differently. Teams make the decisions, not the players. I mean, we had a thread earlier this year that said Macas a Bull. Tau basically said no. And he is stll unsigned. Its similar to soccer. Real Madrid 2 years ago said Patrick Viera was going there, Viera said he was going there, Arsenal, who owned Vieras rights so no. Guess where Viera plays today? Arsenal. 

Until Tau is paid off, which could happen still and might very well be likely, lets not assume anything. If we were to believe Mike McGraw and other beat writers, the Bulls would have a vet or 2 by now, Al Harrington would be a Bull (he is a Hawk), Macas would be a Bull (he clearly isnt) and now Nocioni. Ill believe it when Tau, who holds the cards, says it done. And if you read their chairmans comments, he seems to say he has no problem with Nocioni leaving, as long as he gets the entire buyout now. Doesnt seem to me to be a guy who really going to bend over backwards for the Bulls. He didnt do it for Philly, who offered the same deal to Nocioni


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> Presuming everyone stays relatively healthy this year, I like the potential look of our nine man rotation:
> *Guards:* Hinrich, Crawford, Gordon.
> *SF's:* Nocioni, Deng.
> ...


What I like about this rotation, is that at least 6 of those guys are on the same philosophical level at Scott Skiles - i.e. hard workers, no shortcuts types. And I presume the others will come on board at some point.

There was a bit of a mismatch between head office direction and playing personnel last year... not so much now.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: Re: Chapu Will Play For Bulls This Season*



> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> 
> 
> What I like about this rotation, is that at least 6 of those guys are on the same philosophical level at Scott Skiles - i.e. hard workers, no shortcuts types. And I presume the others will come on board at some point.
> ...


You raise a very good point. Curry is the type of personality who can be influenced by the people around him. I'm not calling him a chameleon, but if you put him in the right kind of environment, he'll adjust and sincerely try to fit in. He was quite receptive to Skiles' training demands last season because he saw and felt the benefits of his hard work. Though nothing was made of it publicly, he developed a considerable amount of respect for Hinrich's balls-out approach to the game. Davis also played a role in influencing Eddy in a positive way. He had a very similar impact on Al Harrington when he joined the Pacers. But again, nothing was made of these influences in the media because neither Hinrich nor Davis are real big about self-promotion.

Jamal's personality is not quite as pliable. He came into the league as a bit of a lone wolf and frankly, he wasn't very popular with his teammates initially. To his credit he did alot to turn that around and is now considered one of the good guys in the clubhouse. However, he's much more of an independent thinker, and still exhibits some of the old "lone wolf" characteristics now and then. I'm not saying that's good or bad...its just how he is. My point is that while he's quite capable of adapting to a changing environment, he's not going to be influenced by it the same way Eddy would.

So if you're going to look for changes in Eddy's and Jamal's styles of play based on being influenced by their teammates attitudes and aggressive styles of play, look for bigger changes from Eddy than from Jamal. Though this all may boil down to nothing more than wishful thinking, I'm optimistic that by surrounding Curry with doberman personalities, you'll see him become a much more agressive player himself. Jamal I'm sure, will work within the system to the best of his ability, but don't expect him to adopt a Bunker Hill mentality like his teammates and start attacking the rim and taking charges. But that doesn't have to be a bad thing. Its much easier to function successfully with a finesse player in your lineup as long as he's surrounded by a bunch of tough, mean guys. But if you have more than one finesse guy on the court at the same time, chances are you're team will get pushed around.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Tau Ceramica says pay up. At the end of it all, it doesnt really matter what Pax and Nocioni says, it only matters what Tau says. ... Ill believe it when Tau, who holds the cards, says it done.


Damn you are a wet blanket lately, rlucas. 

Chapu (do we really have to call the guy that?) says "everything is in order" for him to join the Bulls-- I take that to mean he has made arrangements to meet the buyout parameters in his contract with Tau. I don't see why you keep saying Tau holds all the cards when, in fact, it is Nocioni who does. If he meets the buyout parameters, there's not a damn thing Tau can do to stop him from leaving.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

How old is he? I get a little Tarlac-esque when I hear statements like "I've left my best years".


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## Aesop (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> How old is he? I get a little Tarlac-esque when I hear statements like "I've left my best years".


He's 24. By "I've left my best years", I think he means his best years are coming up and he's taking them away from Tau. Perhaps a translation thing.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I don't think there's any doubt that the deal can be made to work, even with the full buyout, paid up front. I mean, this isn't some kid out of HS or coming out of the dorms at Michigan State. He's been making some money. He probably has assets sufficient to support himself. Between cash, Bulls share of the buyout and a laon, it could be made to work.

But despite what Tau has said, there is reason to keep talking to them to see if some deal could be worked out.

What incentive would Tau have to compromise a little and ease Chapu's burden? Well, financial reasons.

If Nocioni pays 3.5M to Tau, that is 3.5M in Tau's pocket. Even if it is paid over 2 or 3 years.

If Tau sticks to their guns and the result is scuttling the deal, they do get an unhappy Nocioni back for 1 more year.

But they pay him $800,000 or so for next deason's salary, and he leaves next year for a 2M buyout. That is a 2.3M loss to Tau (1.5M reduction in buyout + salary paid). And what they get for the effort is an unhappy player who could potentially be a cancer for the team and badwill among other players, who may be less willing to sign with Tau.

So it may be worth it to Tau to step off their insistance at a full, lump sum payment. At least it is worth a shot.

Of course, the fact that Chapu has already announced he's coming here one way or another seems to make such negotiations less likely to succeed.

The only other incentive I could think to give Tau would be promotion. An active NBA player is still highly regarded in Europe, as far as I know. Chapu can return in the offseasons to promote Tau, do commercials, make appearances, praise the team for making him NBA ready, etc. The goodwill may be a positive for Tau that would warrant some relief from the contract demands.

I think the only reason the Bulls deal isn't signed yet is the fact that there is no hurry and there's no harm in trying to get some love from Tau. But pessimistic "show me" demands on this board to the contrary, the quotes from Pax and from Chapu seem to make it pretty clear that this is going to happen. This isn't just some rumor and sportswriter puffery.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> Damn you are a wet blanket lately, rlucas.
> 
> Chapu (do we really have to call the guy that?) says "everything is in order" for him to join the Bulls-- I take that to mean he has made arrangements to meet the buyout parameters in his contract with Tau. I don't see why you keep saying Tau holds all the cards when, in fact, it is Nocioni who does. If he meets the buyout parameters, there's not a damn thing Tau can do to stop him from leaving.


He is under contract to Tau. And until Tau releases him, he is Taus property. Their Chairman has said they wont stand in the way as long as they get compensation. And compensation hasnt been paid yet. Same thing happened with macas, and he is still their property. same thing as happened to scola. Tau holds the cards. And until Nocioni actually fulfills his buyout, which is no slam dunk, they hold the cards. So yes, they can do a damn thing about it


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> And until Nocioni actually fulfills his buyout, which is no slam dunk, they hold the cards.


What do you know about Nocioni's financial position to say it is no slam dunk? Between his assets and his credit, a man who has been making in the upper 6 figures should be able to come up with the money. Can't blame the guy for trying to change Tau's mind about a lump sum, but if push comes to shove, I believe it is Chapu who does indeed hold the cards.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> 
> 
> What do you know about Nocioni's financial position to say it is no slam dunk? Between his assets and his credit, a man who has been making in the upper 6 figures should be able to come up with the money. Can't blame the guy for trying to change Tau's mind about a lump sum, but if push comes to shove, I believe it is Chapu who does indeed hold the cards.


How does he hold the cards? He HAS A CONTRACT. If he can honor his contract, then he will be a Bull. If not, then Tau is under no obligation to release him. They hold the cards. 

Dont believe me? Philly offered Nocioni the same deal and literally worked on it for months. Nocioni even said he was going to play for Philly. But guess what? It didnt happen because Nocioni couldnt fulfill his end of the deal. What has happened in the last 6 weeks to change that?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I don't know what happened to the Philly deal. Truth be told, the only thing I know about any potential Philly deal is what I've read on these threads.

I haven't heard anyone say the deal fell through specifically because he was not able to fulfill his buyout.

If anyone has any further information in this regard I'd like to read it.

I agree that until he fulfils his buyout obligation he is under contract.

I have not heard anyone close to the deal suggest that he is incapable of doing so.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> I don't know what happened to the Philly deal. Truth be told, the only thing I know about any potential Philly deal is what I've read on these threads.
> 
> I haven't heard anyone say the deal fell through specifically because he was not able to fulfill his buyout.
> ...


He and Philly agreed to a deal. Tau said the exact same thing. But Nocioni couldnt come to a lump sum 3.5 million to pay it off. Philly started negotiating the deal in january and only up until the draft, a full 5 months, did they figure out that Tau wouldnt accept installments. So what has changed in the last 6 weeks? Not much. This was the same deal offered by Philly and it didnt work. Tau is a very ambitious team. They have managed to hang onto macas and scola even though NBA teams want them. They are not easy to deal with. And right now, they hold the cards cause they have these guys locked into contracts. What we have is a Delfino type of situation for Nocioni. Nocioni could either come up with a huge amount of money and play for free next year, or he can wait a year and sign with the Bulls next summer when his buyout is rumored to drop to slightly under 2 million. Wouldnt surprise me if that is what ends up happening. And with no first round pick next year, might not be a bad thing


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> He and Philly agreed to a deal. Tau said the exact same thing. But Nocioni couldnt come to a lump sum 3.5 million to pay it off. Philly started negotiating the deal in january and only up until the draft, a full 5 months, did they figure out that Tau wouldnt accept installments.


I've been searching the web for a half an hour now.

Link, please.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> 
> 
> I've been searching the web for a half an hour now.
> ...


there was some info on the draft thread. And there was some info on Marca about 6 weeks ago. Its pretty common knowledge. Maybe something on the Philly board as well, though I cant claim to have even been to the Philly board


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

In my searches, I've found suggestions that the Sixers were negotiating with Tau. Mostly in message board discussions. Some threads here, some on other boards. Nothing from newspaper articles, etc.

I'm going to keep looking, because I want some concrete confirmation that the Sixers made a formal offer, that it was the same as the Bulls offer and that it fell through because Chapu couldn't afford the buyout.

Don't mean to sound like I'm calling you out.

As you have pointed out, we have been burned with bad info about these Euro trades before. One way or another, I want to find some solid information about Chapu's situation, past and present, and especially want confirmation that the Sixers deal was firmly in place and scuttled over the buyout.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> In my searches, I've found suggestions that the Sixers were negotiating with Tau. Mostly in message board discussions.
> 
> I'm going to keep looking, because I want some concrete confirmation that the Sixers made a formal offer, that it was the same as the Bulls offer and that it fell through because Chapu couldn't afford the buyout.
> ...


Like I said, its common knowledge. Try Marca. Or try the Philly board. But there is info on the draft thread. It clearly states Philly began negotiating with Tau in January and I can tell you that those negotiations went up to before the draft. Thats the last I have heard of them. 

If Tau were so easy to deal with, why isnt Macijauskas, who was a "lock" to join the Bulls 3 weeks ago, signed yet either? 

I am not saying Nocioni wont be a Bull, but dont count your chickens before they hatch. The media and others have said things to us before to lead us to believe something is imminent. If that was so, jamal would be in NY, Harrington and Macas would be Bulls and so on. When Nocioni gets out of his Tau deal and signs a contract with the Bulls, Ill believe it. And I want to believe it. But lets be reasonable. Nothing is done yet. And 3.6 million is alot of money for anyone, including a guy who has made 800k for a year or 2


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I think we agree that we'd like to see the deal done.

We agree with the obvious: he is under contract and owes a big wad of cash to get out of it.

You are saying don't count your chickens.

I'm saying don't be so dismissive.

From everything I've been able to find and read, the Sixers deal was a lot of fan talk, rather than something that actually happened and was scuttled.

But you are right. Its not done yet and all any of us can do is wait it out and see what happens.


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## Aesop (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> If Tau were so easy to deal with, why isnt Macijauskas, who was a "lock" to join the Bulls 3 weeks ago, signed yet either?


Are you implying Tau is the reason for this? If so, this is news.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

*8/30/03...The story had been rumored on the Internet. There had been a mild buzz in the course of the early games in the Olympic qualifying tournament. But it took until nearly the end of the second round before a source would confirm that the 76ers had negotiated with the agent for Andres Nocioni, a starting forward for Argentina.

Those discussions began in June, but ended because the 6-6 Nocioni is under contract to Tau Ceramica in the Spanish professional league. His agreement with that team includes a large buyout clause.

The source indicated that the Sixers might revisit the situation before the 2004-05 NBA season.*

http://www.philly.com/mld/[email protected]&KRD_RM=0hopnjpjkihggggggggihmhgpg|h|N

Not much detail. It indicates there were discusions last summer but that the amount of his buyout prevented them from getting a deal done.

Here's the deal, though. On 7/16/03 the Sixers signed Kenny Williams to a 7year $40 million dollar deal. They also re-signed Derrick Coleman to a 3 year $13.5 million dollar deal on 8/6/03. And finally, on 10/3/03 the Sixers extended Eric Snow for 4 more years and $26 million.

The Sixers payroll in 02/03 was $64.8 million and in 03/04 it was $60.4 million.

This leads me to a number of possible conclusions:
1. In 2003, Nocioni's buyout amount was larger than it is now.
2. The Sixers had other priorities during '03 that had to be addressed before Nocioni could be added...like signing Thomas and Coleman and extending Snow.
3. The Sixers payroll in 02/03 and 03/04 simply didn't allow them to offer Andres enough to payoff the buyout amount at that time.
4. The fact that they wanted to "revisit" the issue this summer again with Nocioni may suggest his buyour would be more affordable this summer.
5. The Bulls beat the Sixers to Andres.

Take your pick or pick it apart... :grinning:


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## dsouljah9 (Jul 9, 2002)

I think the Bulls wanted Macas because they felt that Nocioni wasn't interested. Macas was sort of a "plan B". Things began to look promising with Nocioni, and they agreed to terms. I still think that the Bulls are interested in Macas(his buyout amount is smaller) and it's possible that the Bulls <i>could</i> sign both if they wanted to, becuase Nocioni's 3.3 mil leaves 1.6 million left of the MLE which should be enough to get Macas(if they so desire). And we still have the vet exception as well.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> *8/30/03...The story had been rumored on the Internet. There had been a mild buzz in the course of the early games in the Olympic qualifying tournament. But it took until nearly the end of the second round before a source would confirm that the 76ers had negotiated with the agent for Andres Nocioni, a starting forward for Argentina.
> 
> Those discussions began in June, but ended because the 6-6 Nocioni is under contract to Tau Ceramica in the Spanish professional league. His agreement with that team includes a large buyout clause.
> ...


They revisted the situation in January and had been talking even during the playoffs. They had problems with Tau and couldnt make it work. I am not sure what has changed since then for Nocioni to make it work now. Maybe he won the lottery, I just dont know? But again, I think its reasonable, not dismissive, to not count your chickens before they hatch


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

BTW, I didn't know this, but while looking for details on the Sixers negotiations with Nocioni last summer I ran across this little blurb.

The article was about the Olympic qualifying tournament held last summer in San Juan, Puerto Rico:

*U.S. big men Tim Duncan and Jermaine O'Neal were named to the All-Tournament team with Manu Ginobili, Steve Nash and Argentine forward Andres Nocioni...Duncan led the U.S. with a 15.6 scoring average.*

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/6671070.htm

That's impressive!


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Well Kismet and rlucas, I hope we get an official announcement soon. I can only assume if Chapu is talking about, he is at very least close to playing off or making arrangements to pay off Tau. So we'll wait and see when we have an official signing which is noted on bulls.com.


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## J-City (Feb 20, 2003)

The "buyout" option is also PART OF THE CONTRACT, therefore if he can come up with the money, which I imagine he can, he's free to go where he pleases. That being so, I would say that it is Nocioni who holds the cards.

Who's to say Macas would definitely be signed right now if a deal was possible? Maybe Pax wants to wait on the whole Jamal situation to play out first. If we end up with Jamal still, then do we really want/need Macas?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>J-City</b>!
> Who's to say Macas would definitely be signed right now if a deal was possible? Maybe Pax wants to wait on the whole Jamal situation to play out first. If we end up with Jamal still, then do we really want/need Macas?


Yes, we do. I don't think the one situation has anything to do with the other.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

You know, its possible that Macas was at the top of Paxson's list at one time. Perhaps he would have been the one visiting Chicago if the draft had gone differently. Remember, the plan was to try to trade for Al Harrington. When that didn't happen and the Bulls ended up with Luol Deng instead, maybe Pax switched gears and went after a more experienced player to share the SF position with the 19 year old Deng.

There are so many things going on that we fans are unaware of. Maybe Pax is now of the belief that there's a better than average chance Crawford will be re-signed. If so, Macas becomes an unnecessary luxury.

I'm just saying that I'd hate to conclude that Tau's the primary reason the Bulls haven't signed, or attempted to sign Macas yet.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, we do. I don't think the one situation has anything to do with the other.


I disagree, TB1. I still think we need a big guard on our team to back up Gordon when we have a big matchup problem. If we sign Crawford, we at least have a bigger guard. But if Crawford somehow leaves for nothing and we have Gordon, Kirk, and Macas in our three guard rotation, certain teams could eat us alive.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

Count me in the group who feels that Macas fell through for reasons other than the Tau contract. After drafting Gordon, Macas becomes even more of a liability and less of an assett. Sharpshooter -- good. Height -- bad. Defense -- bad. This kid just doesn't sound like someone who can help us.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Macas doesn't make much sense with Gordon on board if he did before.

As far as Noicini, I think Euro teams typically have a bit of a different perspective on things than we have here. Why is it in their interest to take less than the full terms of their buyout?

If they play hardball, then at the very worst they get him back for the year and a championship run, then he's gone. Otherwise, they get the full terms of their deal.

If the buyout is $3.6M, I guess it kind of depends on how much the Bulls are offering him in the first year. If they're only offering $3M themselves (and $300k toward the buyout), then I'd imagine it will be somewhat complicated for Noicini to get here.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Macas doesn't make much sense with Gordon on board if he did before.
> 
> As far as Noicini, I think Euro teams typically have a bit of a different perspective on things than we have here. Why is it in their interest to take less than the full terms of their buyout?
> ...


So I discerned for reading elsewhere that an NBA team can offer a signing bonus of 25 percent of the actual contract. 

So let's say he really is getting 3 years, 10 million as we have heard.

25% of 10 mil is 2.5 mil

7.5 mil remains on his contract, split amongst 3 years is 2.5 mil base salary per year. So I compute this figure before taxes:

03/04: 5 million
04/05: 2.5 million
05/06: 2.5 million

The Bulls can also pay 300k towards the buyout, that leaves him a 5 million dollar salary and a 3.3 million dollar buyout. After taxes, that's not going to work so well. It will only work if he either gets a loan or if he has a bunch of investments to liquidate/money in the bank already. But obviously things have proceeded pretty far. I hope he knows what he's doing, because as our roster is currently constituted, we need him.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> I disagree, TB1. I still think we need a big guard on our team to back up Gordon when we have a big matchup problem. If we sign Crawford, we at least have a bigger guard. But if Crawford somehow leaves for nothing and we have Gordon, Kirk, and Macas in our three guard rotation, certain teams could eat us alive.


I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with. I agree that a long guard like Jamal is important. I just don't think our ability or inability to sign Nocioni affects that need, from a player standpoint or from a financial standpoint. They are distinct issues.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> As far as Noicini, I think Euro teams typically have a bit of a different perspective on things than we have here. Why is it in their interest to take less than the full terms of their buyout?
> 
> If they play hardball, then at the very worst they get him back for the year and a championship run, then he's gone. Otherwise, they get the full terms of their deal.


Mike must have me on ignore. Or at least find my reasoning too dumb to warrant comment. :sigh:  

As I said above (post 9):



> What incentive would Tau have to compromise a little and ease Chapu's burden? Well, financial reasons.
> 
> If Nocioni pays 3.5M to Tau, that is 3.5M in Tau's pocket. Even if it is paid over 2 or 3 years.
> 
> ...



So taking a lump sum slightly less than the full amount but more than they would get next year makes sense, as does insisting on the full amount but allowing payment over time.

Does this thinking make any sense at all or am I missing something?


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with. I agree that a long guard like Jamal is important. I just don't think our ability or inability to sign Nocioni affects that need, from a player standpoint or from a financial standpoint. They are distinct issues.


This is getting very jumbled. I'm talking Macas vs. Jamal, and I think you're talking Nocioni vs. Jamal, but I thought you were talking Macas vs. Jamal.

So no, I don't think we disagree ???

But if you want to take it outside, I'm on 83rd St. and Amsterdam.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> If the buyout is $3.6M, I guess it kind of depends on how much the Bulls are offering him in the first year. If they're only offering $3M themselves (and $300k toward the buyout), then I'd imagine it will be somewhat complicated for Noicini to get here.


Briefly, lets consider a worst case scenario. Lets say Tau's buyout amount is $3.6 million. And lets say Tau wants it in a lump sum before they'll release him from his current contract.

Nocioni's new three year contract with the Bulls, valued at $10 million according to reports, has to be considered a pretty good form of collateral by most banks. It's also going to be viewed as strong collateral by the sports agency that represents him. Of course I'm presuming its a guarranteed contract.

Now, we're not talking about a contract backed by some fly by night outfit. On the contrary, its backed by a corporation with a global reputation, the Chicago Bulls.

If Nocioni is willing to honor his buyout obligation as set forth in his contract with Tau, I have got to believe there are numerous ways of securing the necessary funds by borrowing against his Bulls contract, if that's what its going to take. Drafted rookies get advances against their contracts all the time. Sometime the advance is provided by the agency that represents them and sometimes they secure the funds they need through financial institutions and insurance companies who specialize in matters like these.

All we know at this time is that according to the media its a 3 year deal valued at close to $10 million. It could be front loaded to accomodate the Tau buyout. Remember, the full MLE is $4.95 million. 

Consider how the Nuggets structured Kenyon Martin's contract:  Thorn said when the Nets crunched the numbers on the Denver offer -- a maximum $82.3 million, six-year deal that included a $20.5 million signing bonus due immediately...

That shakes out to a front loaded signing bonus (due immediately) equal to 25% of the contract. Based on a $10 million dollar contract, Nocioni could be paid a $2.5 million dollar signing bonus immediately. That gets turned over to Tau along with borrowed funds in the amount of $1.1 million. Thats not an unmanageable amount to repay when you consider he'll average an annual salary of $2.5 million over the next three years. Even if he paid the entire $1.1 million off by the end of the 04/05 eason, he'd still have nearly $1.4 million to live off of his rookie season.

OK, don't crucify me because I didn't account for interest on the loan, agent commissions, etc. Hell, I didn't even take into account the CBA allowable $350,000 the Bulls can contribute to the buyout. The fact is that even after repaying his loan over the course of his rookie season he'll still net more in salary than the 18th pick of this year's draft who will earn $1,005,500.

Having a bit of a commercial banking background in the past, I would feel pretty comfortable suggesting that at this point the delay in consummating the transaction is due more to rate and term negotiations with prospective lenders and other related regulatory technicalities than it is to whether or not everyone gets paid. If Nocioni says its going to happen, and he's the guy who has to come up with most of the buyout money, I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic while at the same time taking rlucas' advice and waiting for all those chicken eggs to hatch!


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## Cochise (Apr 13, 2003)

KC Johnson was just on the Score and said he'd be surprised if the Bulls couldn't get Nocioni. He said that only the buy-out remains and that Nocioni has already said that he'll pay it.

What else could his squad do to stop him from leaving?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Cochise</b>!
> 
> What else could his squad do to stop him from leaving?


Point out to him that he'd be joining the Chicago Bulls.


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## victor_vc (Jul 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Point out to him that he'd be joining the Chicago Bulls.


What's wrong with joining the Chicago Bulls?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> So I discerned for reading elsewhere that an NBA team can offer a signing bonus of 25 percent of the actual contract.
> ...


I think you're close pretty much right on the money, although there are a couple of other rules that alter things a bit.

I thought a bonus would be considered as a % of the specified annual contract. Thus, if the annual salaries are 7.5M, then the max bonus would be 25% of 7.5M or $1.875M. It seems a bit odd to be counting the bonus itself when deciding on what counts in the 25% 

Another thing to consider is that the CBA limits the amounts that annual contracts can be raised and lowered in a given year. 

See http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#44 for more.

Take that into account, and a 3/$10M breaks down as $8M in salary and $2M in bonus. The Bulls could pay him $2.96, 2.67, and 2.37 in annual salary, which is pretty close to what you were saying of course. 

I guess in the end I agree though... he gets a salary of about $1.56M after paying for the buyout. That's not bad, but it does appear to be less than he's making now, especially if they can't get around the tax issues.

------------------------------

TB#1 - I wasn't ignoring you, just came late to the thread... needed to get over my beer and blackjack hangover. 

Anyway, my sense of things is that often times the European business mindset doesn't work in quite the way we would think of as "logical". First, I don't think they think of it in terms of Noicini being a cancer... I think they expect him to show up and play no matter what. They aren't concerned with primadonnas the way we are here because in some respect they don't have to deal with them the way they do here. I think they fully expect that he'll show up and play (and get paid) and I think they will be happy with that.

Second, I think they also, to some extent may see this as a precedent. Think of it in terms of a team back in the older days before the big CBA agreements negotiating a ground-breaking deal with a player... say, for baseball free agency. It's commonplace now, but before it was commonplace it was "just not done" and doing it changed the way everyone had to do business. In some respects this seems to be the situation Tau faces. On one hand, it might make financial sense if they negotiate (although, if you consider the revenues from additional winning that they might get if they have Noicini as the extra piece to win the championship it's unclear), but it might, in the long-run, make things more expensive and complicated for everyone and generally make it harder to retain good players.

Thus, I'm not saying it doesn't make sense for Tau to negotiate in some respects, it clearly does. And from my perspective it's a more equitable and comprehensible means of doing business, but that doesn't mean that there aren't some vested interests in keeping things the way they are. It's evolution.

-------------------------------

Finally, Kismet, let's consider a few complications to the situation you offer.

First, let's imagine Uncle Sam comes along and asks for 33% of what Andres makes this year. That's about $1.65M he has to fork over, leaving him with $3.3M left for the season.

I missed where Fi_flash and others were talking about the tax implications and so I apologize if this was already brought up and dispensed with, but it seems like it makes for a pretty good sized increase in the amount of funds he'd be taking out.

Even if you add in the $300k the Bulls can pay, Andres would still be short $100k just to pay the buyout, much less to live off of.

In the end we're still talking about a loan of maybe $1-1.5M to max what he was getting before, but of course that's money he'll have to pay back too. When you consider all that, I have a hard time seeing how he ends up with a higher after-tax/after-loan income than the one he's leaving behind. In short, he's probably taking a pay cut (although I haven't seen what his salary from Tau is). Maybe he wants to play here that bad... I sure hope so 

As an aside, KMart said to someone the other day that if the Nets had offered a comparable backloaded deal he would have signed it instead, which makes Thorn's statement pretty bogus sounding to me


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Point out to him that he'd be joining the Chicago Bulls.


Shhh! It might ruin it.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>victor_vc</b>!
> 
> 
> What's wrong with joining the Chicago Bulls?


23-59
30-52
21-61
15-67
17-65
13-37

And doing little to change it.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> 23-59
> ...


That's just cruel, man. It's not like the Sixers are on the up and up either.

By the way, 300-350k towards the buyout is no pocket change, especially since his buyout clause must have gone down since last year at least a LITTLE. Say it's around 2? 350k tugs it to 1.7, which they can make the bonus.

Every dollar counts.


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## victor_vc (Jul 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> 23-59
> ...


I have followed the Bulls through each of the dark years and read all threads on this board everyday since I found it in 02, and surprisingly, I am not the only one. Considering the high traffic for this board, it's not unreasonable that some players do want to join them. (Bulls would be my choice if I were a pro basketball player).

I rarely post, but I find it unsettling that a certain negativity has clouded over this board. It seems that with every discussion, some people would propose contrary views just for the sake of it. I know people are being cautious because of last summer, but let's not tilt too much to the other side to compensate.


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## WookiesOnRitalin (Jan 22, 2004)

How many times have this team been revamped in those 6 years?

How many?

We didn't get our free agents in 2000 which conicidentily had to be the worst draft in the last 30 years.

When we start building a team based on hard work and dedication (something, mind you, i've been preaching since my days on ESPN) then we will start being a successful franchise. 

OMG!  

Look what John Paxson is doing. Could it be that he's finally building a team on those principles? 

THE AUDACITY!!! :upset: 

Bulls have never committed to one player they've ever drafted. Not one since the rebuilding. That's SCARY. Which pretty much means every guy we drafted was not worth keeping around. 

The team is moving in the right direction and even Kobe can recognize that fact. Is it so hard to believe that Nocionni could see that too? A team thats being built on his principles and philosophy towards the game of basketball. I can't imagine why anyone would go to a team thats being built to their style of basketball. 

Plus the playing time and the pay don't suck.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> 23-59
> ...


Why? Because they won't package Eddy Curry for Fatty Walker?


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## Maestro (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>WookiesOnRitalin</b>!
> How many times have this team been revamped in those 6 years?
> 
> How many?
> ...


Well said at some levels. Ya gotta hope.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>victor_vc</b>!
> 
> 
> I have followed the Bulls through each of the dark years and read all threads on this board everyday since I found it in 02, and surprisingly, I am not the only one. Considering the high traffic for this board, it's not unreasonable that some players do want to join them. (Bulls would be my choice if I were a pro basketball player).
> ...


VC, its everyones right to be optimisitic. But with this club, its better to sit back and allow things to develop without having any real expectations. So much has gone wrong for 6 years that, IMO, its better to be a fan then someone who has expectations that are unreasonable, therefor setting yourself up for a broken heart. Now will Nocioni be a Bull? Maybe. Probably even. But if you look back at some of the guarantees the press has thrown out this offseason, you can see that their track record has been dismal. This is just this OFFSEASON

Pax to trade pick for vet-Didnt happen
Pax to trade pick for Al Harrington (done deal I believe I read here)-didnt happen
Pax to sign Arvydas Macijauskas, reported in newspapers with quotes from Macas himself-didnt happen
Jamal Crawford to Knicks to be completed today-didnt happen

Where I come from that is 0-4. Im not blaming anyone here, not Pax at all, so dont take it that way. But what i am saying is that the media either A) doesnt know all the facts before they report B) Is getting info from either inside the Bulls or NBA that is a little too optimistic. Either way, I like that Pax has gone for Nocioni, I like that Nocioni wants to come to Chicago but I am not going to count my chickens before the hatch. Philly couldnt get a deal done for Nocioni with Tau and worked on it for a long time. I am not sure that we can do anything differently. Nocioni has to come up 3.5 million bucks. Not easy to do. And my guess is that he has to come up with that money fairly quickly or Pax will be forced to look in other directions. While its progress, its not a done deal. Thats what I believe Dabullz is saying. I also believe Dabullz is saying, if Nocioni CAN BUY HIMSELF out of the contract, AND NBA teams now have confidence that he can, why wont a team like, say Miami, swoop in at the last second and nab him from us? Its possible. Its not negative thinking, its cautious thinking.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> VC, its everyones right to be optimisitic. But with this club, its better to sit back and allow things to develop without having any real expectations. So much has gone wrong for 6 years that, IMO, its better to be a fan then someone who has expectations that are unreasonable, therefor setting yourself up for a broken heart. Now will Nocioni be a Bull? Maybe. Probably even. But if you look back at some of the guarantees the press has thrown out this offseason, you can see that their track record has been dismal. This is just this OFFSEASON
> ...


Pretty much sums it up.

While we can propose trades and make mythical lineups that look good as a Bulls team, we've got some EXPERIENCE (read that history) we can use to set our expectations.

Not only do I point to the Bulls' sorry W/L record over 6 years, there's a lot of acrimony built up against our successful players:
1) Rose gets run out of town
2) Crawford gets his value talked down
3) Brand isn't embraced, but rather traded for a draft pick who had little chance of matching his performance
4) We have a doghouse on the team that a player can join without knowing what he did to get there (see ERob after his best month as a Bull)
5) If you're going to get cut from the team for some strange reason, you're likely to get cut 1 day after you're still eligible to be picked up by a playoff team
6) No top level FA has signed here
7) Those FAs who have signed here for the MLE and performed well (Mercer, Marshall) don't last very long and their contribution isn't appreciated.
8) The team is content to cut quality players and replace them with NBDL guys, and then those NBDL guys get burn for the sake of principle (instead of for the sake of winning games).
9) Year after year (mostly recently), a lot of top quality talent gets traded from team to team but the Bulls aren't involved.

&c


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