# The Variability of Yao



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Is there another very good player in the league who has such high variability to his game? When everything's falling for him and he has confidence, he approaches superstar impact and plays well in all facets of the game.

When shots aren't falling, he loses confidence and is terrible at nearly every facet.

Most stars or very good players are at least decent to good when they aren't on their game. Yao goes to scrub level, fumbling rebounds out of bounds, watching opposing centers dunk put-backs, etc.

He can either be a star center or essentially worthless. I've never seen another player which such variability.


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## lalala (Apr 26, 2005)

sometimes, he is just afraid the comments as yours


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## sherwin (Mar 21, 2005)

its not his shots its his fouls. if he gets 2 quick BS fouls in the beginning he sits from mid first to mid 2nd and tha tkills his rhythm. also rockets have to find him deep in the post.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Is there another very good player in the league who has such high variability to his game? When everything's falling for him and he has confidence, he approaches superstar impact and plays well in all facets of the game.
> 
> When shots aren't falling, he loses confidence and is terrible at nearly every facet.


Yao wasn't to blame for this loss, it's not like he shoot a poor percentage. He had some key turnovers but did what he could considering he was doubled for most of the game and was plagued with foul trouble, some of them absolutely bogus. 



> Most stars or very good players are at least decent to good when they aren't on their game. Yao goes to scrub level, fumbling rebounds out of bounds, watching opposing centers dunk put-backs, etc.


Is it his fault we don't have a PF, and therefore he has to contest everything in the lane? In case you didn't realize he alters a great number of shots, and that requires coming away from his defender. 



> He can either be a star center or essentially worthless. I've never seen another player which such variability.


Yeah, the double and triple teams he attracted tonight were absolutely worthless. Even without the ball the defenders were further away from the perimeter, ready to collapse on Yao. He rebounded well given his minutes and made some gorgeous passes. The game plan tonight didn't involve Yao getting many touches since we knew Dallas would collapse on him instantly, but when he did battle for position he made the most of his opportunities. 

Shame on you for coming down hard on Yao just to make the loss look better for McGrady as an individual.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> Shame on you for coming down hard on Yao just to make the loss look better for McGrady as an individual.


I KNEW IT! :laugh:


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## sherwin (Mar 21, 2005)

MRC, guess you are back home. 

I can't stop saying it but I along with everyone else are so upset with the majority of Houston fans. They sat on their hands the entire game. 

I'm also disappointed with our 4th quarter collapse. There wasn't leadership on the floor during it. Thats not supposed to happen against good defense. TMac didnt bring the same intensity tonight, I wish we were in Dallas where its him against the world. I expected him to come on just as strong after learning his lesson in Detroit 2 yrs ago.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> Shame on you for coming down hard on Yao just to make the loss look better for McGrady as an individual.


Are you ****ing kidding me? This has nothing to do with McGrady.

Why don't you try to use a little of your native intellect and follow along with me here: If I were trying to improve McGrady's image, why would I post this thread on the forum where McGrady is _most liked and admired_? If I were trying to improve McGrady's image, why would I post this thread on a forum that relatively few people read compared to the main NBA forum and the NBA playoffs forum?

I'm sorry that you're so graceless in being able to handle opinions you disagree with. I'd ordinarily have responded to your counter-points, but this last line shows that you lack the civility and maturity to discuss this in good faith.

I wasn't even thinking about McGrady when I posted this thread; it was just the frustration I've felt over the whole season watching Yao, a player I actually like. But you're totally close-minded when it comes to Yao...I should have expected it from the signs you've given off about how unwilling you are to entertain criticism of Yao.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Are you ****ing kidding me? This has nothing to do with McGrady.
> 
> Why don't you try to use a little of your native intellect and follow along with me here: If I were trying to improve McGrady's image, why would I post this thread on the forum where McGrady is _most liked and admired_? If I were trying to improve McGrady's image, why would I post this thread on a forum that relatively few people read compared to the main NBA forum and the NBA playoffs forum?
> 
> ...



I am fully willing to criticize and call out Yao. Tonight was simply not the night to call him out. I've also never called him a superstar, even in his biggest games it has been McGrady who has carried this team and iced the cake. Yao is not a mentally strong person, and allows himself to get thrown out of games by the refs. He becomes hesitant on both ends of the floor, we've seen it throughout the season. But tonight he played well, wrestling with Dirk and Dampier for position in the 2nd half and pushing the ball out to the perimeter. He allowed Dampier to front him in the first half but made corrections in the 2nd.

Maybe the biggest difference between us is that I think Yao is a legit All Star (not just based on his position) and you think he is a superstar. He is definitely not there yet.

The McGrady comment was inappropriate, I am just heated now.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> I am fully willing to criticize and call out Yao. Tonight was simply not the night to call him out. I've also never called him a superstar, even in his biggest games it has been McGrady who has carried this team and iced the cake.


This wasn't about McGrady. I wasn't posting in order to get you to admit this, not at all. I obviously have high opinions of McGrady, but he wasn't in my mind at all in posting this.



> Yao is not a mentally strong person, and allows himself to get thrown out of games by the refs. He becomes hesitant on both ends of the floor, we've seen it throughout the season. But tonight he played well, wrestling with Dirk and Dampier for position in the 2nd half and pushing the ball out to the perimeter. He allowed Dampier to front him in the first half but made corrections in the 2nd.
> 
> Maybe the biggest difference between us is that I think Yao is a legit All Star (not just based on his position) and you think he is a superstar. He is definitely not there yet.


No, I don't think Yao is a superstar, though I think he has superstar talent. Something I should clarify is that I wasn't working at the granular level of full games. His performance varies _within_ games. There are periods of time when Yao is playing very well, drawing the double-team and making the great pass.

Then there are times when he makes one mistake after another. Throws a pass away careless, fumbles away two or three rebounds that he should have had. All in a row, over, say, a five minute stretch.

While that _can_ happen to anyone, it happens to Yao an alarming amount.

While Yao is obviously a smart guy, sometimes I question his basketball IQ.



> The McGrady comment was inappropriate, I am just heated now.


Fair enough. Maybe I should have questioned Yao tomorrow instead of the night of. If it helps at all, I'm actually somewhat emotionally invested in the Rockets this playoffs (though obviously not as much as true Rockets fans) and I've lived and died on the ups and downs of the first three games. That 18-0 run by Dallas ruined my night, so I was certainly not posting frivolously.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> No, I don't think Yao is a superstar, though I think he has superstar talent. Something I should clarify is that I wasn't working at the granular level of full games. His performance varies _within_ games. There are periods of time when Yao is playing very well, drawing the double-team and making the great pass.


JVG said earlier this season he wanted to limit Yao to 1 touch per 4 posessions to keep the defense guessing. He's obviously changed that now, and once Yao proves to be less TO prone with double teams attacking him I'm sure JVG won't mind giving him more touches and letting McGrady play off of Yao. 




> While Yao is obviously a smart guy, sometimes I question his basketball IQ.


Exactly! For a guy who is so smart off the court, he sure makes a lot of decisions on the court that would indicate the opposite. It's one of the most mind boggling aspects about his play, but then again it's also the most correctable.



> Fair enough. Maybe I should have questioned Yao tomorrow instead of the night of. If it helps at all, I'm actually somewhat emotionally invested in the Rockets this playoffs (though obviously not as much as true Rockets fans) and I've lived and died on the ups and downs of the first three games. That 18-0 run by Dallas ruined my night, so I was certainly not posting frivolously.


Agreed, I needed more time to cool off after the game. Even though I expected a loss, it was still very frustrating.


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## TracywtFacy (Mar 29, 2005)

I think MRC's point about the lack of a half-decent PF is the main reason Yao isn't the most consistent performer. Look at how key Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman were to the two Bulls' championship runs, even with their two superstars. 

We need someone tough, who can defend, grab rebounds, bang around inside, do the dirty grunt work that no-one gives enough credit for but is so instrumental in winning, to take the pressure off Yao. It really is a glaring shortcoming on our team. Not even Juwan Howard can bring that kind of game, even if he had been healthy. Who do we have, then? Ryan Bowen, Vin Baker, Clarence Weatherspoon, Scott Padgett. They really don't bring the qualities that I've outlined before. I mean, Scotty the Body is a three point specialist at the 4, for crying out loud. 

Right now, players like Deke and our White Boy Power Squad have tried to fill this void, but they are all too small. They've done a valiant job so far, that's what's so admirable about this team. They're toughing out wins despite their weaknesses, using all their collective skills, experience, courage, will to win, faith in each other, and teamwork.

If you look at it like that, Yao is doing even better than can be expected. So diss yourself, not Yao.


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## kisstherim (Jul 15, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Is there another very good player in the league who has such high variability to his game?


how bout Rasheed Wallace? maybe that's the only player i can think of who has the similiar variability to Yao.

actually i have the same question as u do.it's not because of this game(i think Yao played well in this game),i had the question ever since his first season.i could never figure out what's his problem.hope somebody can give some thoughts.


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## kisstherim (Jul 15, 2004)

TracywtFacy said:


> I think MRC's point about the lack of a half-decent PF is the main reason Yao isn't the most consistent performer. Look at how key Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman were to the two Bulls' championship runs, even with their two superstars.
> 
> We need someone tough, who can defend, grab rebounds, bang around inside, do the dirty grunt work that no-one gives enough credit for but is so instrumental in winning, to take the pressure off Yao. It really is a glaring shortcoming on our team. Not even Juwan Howard can bring that kind of game, even if he had been healthy. Who do we have, then? Ryan Bowen, Vin Baker, Clarence Weatherspoon, Scott Padgett. They really don't bring the qualities that I've outlined before. I mean, Scotty the Body is a three point specialist at the 4, for crying out loud.
> 
> ...


we did have Cato who could at least be considered "half-decent" and played PF when Yao was playing C last season, but Yao showed similar variability. Some ppl in China even call him " Mr.Inconsistent" last season.


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## ABC (Nov 4, 2002)

What can I say? The 3rd best center in the league did not perform well tonight. But you didn't think Houston would sweep Dallas did you?


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## Pasha The Great (Apr 9, 2005)

> But you didn't think Houston would sweep Dallas did you?


I was almost certain we would.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

kisstherim said:


> how bout Rasheed Wallace? maybe that's the only player i can think of who has the similiar variability to Yao.


MRC actually mentioned Rasheed Wallace as a comparison for Yao in another discussion, and I think Wallace is a good comparison as another player who kept being considered "disappointing" for not living up to the talent people saw in him.

But I didn't think Wallace fell off as much as Yao when things weren't going well. He was always an elite defender and he didn't have the turn over issues.

That said, I recognize that it probably is tough on Yao to play at his size, as the body proportions may not be ideal for basketball...he might be _too_ large. Another nice point made previously by MRC.


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## Smooth Lotion (Jan 7, 2005)

I do think it has plenty to do with touches.

Dallas decided they would double Yao early, and they did. They would leave Wesley open off the Yao - Tmac pick and roll so they wldnt get burned in that department. They made alot of adjustments to control Yao's touches, and threw doubles on him when he did get the ball. Still not sure why Yao isn't allowed to shoot some jumpers...


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Is there another very good player in the league who has such high variability to his game? When everything's falling for him and he has confidence, he approaches superstar impact and plays well in all facets of the game.
> 
> When shots aren't falling, he loses confidence and is terrible at nearly every facet.
> 
> ...


i honestly think yao was just as good in game 3 as he was in game 2. the difference was his teammates getting him the ball and when they got it to him. i think that's what causes his variability. if yao has guys feeding him the ball at the right times, mix things up with some drives and dishes to yao, and people that can hit an outside shot when he makes the pass, then he is a superstar player. but so much of his game depends on other people getting him the ball in the right spots.

it's not yao's fault he was bad. why is sura making crazy drives and attempting terrible looking layups when yao has good post position? and you can't blame yao when he makes the pass to a wide open shooter than misses a shot. yao is good, he is just more dependent on other players than the true superstars in the nba right now.


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## kisstherim (Jul 15, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> But I didn't think Wallace fell off as much as Yao when things weren't going well. He was always an elite defender


i think Yao is always an "elite defender" as well.the reason that he sometimes just "watching opposing centers dunk put-backs" is simply b/c he is scared of fouls as the player who probably got the most BS calls in the league. 



Minstrel said:


> That said, I recognize that it probably is tough on Yao to play at his size, as the body proportions may not be ideal for basketball...he might be _too_ large. Another nice point made previously by MRC.


exactly! he is too tall to get many "not so good" passes especially when his teammates passed the ball too low which just turn out to be turnovers.


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## kisstherim (Jul 15, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> i honestly think yao was just as good in game 3 as he was in game 2. the difference was his teammates getting him the ball and when they got it to him. i think that's what causes his variability. if yao has guys feeding him the ball at the right times, mix things up with some drives and dishes to yao, and people that can hit an outside shot when he makes the pass, then he is a superstar player. but so much of his game depends on other people getting him the ball in the right spots.
> 
> it's not yao's fault he was bad. why is sura making crazy drives and attempting terrible looking layups when yao has good post position? and you can't blame yao when he makes the pass to a wide open shooter than misses a shot. yao is good, he is just more dependent on other players than the true superstars in the nba right now.


i have a question,can a player "more dependent on other players than the true superstars in the nba" and "can be great *only* when he is playing with great teammates"(the inference of ur words) be called a great player? I guess many pp doubt it and that's why Amare has not yet been given the same credits as other players who have the Stats of his level.


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## TheRoc5 (Mar 1, 2005)

ABC said:


> What can I say? The 3rd best center in the league did not perform well tonight. But you didn't think Houston would sweep Dallas did you?


the 3rd best center wasnt in this gm, james was in the seatlle gm... o you mean the 4th best center dampier. but yes i see when he has confidence he makes his jumpshots and is more focused. also when he has more confidence his team mates see that and give him the ball


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## kisstherim (Jul 15, 2004)

TheRoc5 said:


> o you mean the 4th best center dampier.


no way,Dampier is definitely the 2nd best center 




of the WNBA


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Guarding the pick and roll is still Yao's kryptonite defensively. Yes, he does a great job trying to trap the PG but it really does send the defense scrambling when Yao gets confused on who to cover while the defense rotates.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

kisstherim said:


> i have a question,can a player "more dependent on other players than the true superstars in the nba" and "can be great *only* when he is playing with great teammates"(the inference of ur words) be called a great player? I guess many pp doubt it and that's why Amare has not yet been given the same credits as other players who have the Stats of his level.


that's why i don't think yao is a superstar player yet.


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## Raxel (Nov 10, 2004)

Yao is half superstar, half good player. but problem is you don't know which night he's in which half. :boohoo:


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

When we make a conscious effort to get Yao the ball, he can carry a team. I think he displayed this in the 4th quarter of Game 5. I think his performances in games 6 and 7 will have a bigger impact on whether this team advances than McGrady. But then again, McGrady has been the one setting him up on those nice feeds and pick and roll plays so hopefully he can balance that with his own offensive game.


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## FirstRocket (Mar 10, 2005)

kisstherim said:


> no way,Dampier is definitely the 2nd best center
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then, who is the best center



of WNBA? :biggrin:


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