# Is Toronto a legit contender in the East?



## ChristopherJ

I think they are. They have one of the most talented big men in the league in Bosh, they have two above average PG's in Ford and Calderon, they have two legitimate 3 point threats in Parker and Peterson, and their bench is one of the deepest in the league.

They're also now above 500. and this is with Bosh, Ford, and Peterson all missing a handful of games during different times in the season.

Considering no one is standing out in a very weak Eastern conference I think they have a shot to contend.

Thoughts?


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## Jizzy

No!


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## @[email protected]

They are contender in the Atlantic!


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## Jizzy

Damn, we lost you.


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## ChristopherJ

Jizzy said:


> Damn, we lost you.


Why is this thread dumb? I know you're a Nets fan, or in other words: an automatic Raps hater, but try and put things in perspective. This is the East were talking about. There is no elite team in the East, everyone is beatable.

I think the Raps extremely underrated and underlooked on these boards. They're in Canada and they have a lot of Euro players who have names that are hard to pronounce, but watch them play, they have the tools to make a run.


BTW, I've watched pretty much every Raps game this year and their better than their record shows. They started of 1-7, but the fact is this team went through a complete overhaul last offseason and it was only inevitable that it would take time to gel. Since then they've climbed their way back to 500 even though they've struggled with constant injuries to their primary players.

So yep..they're legit IMO.


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## Mateo

In about 3 years.


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## JNice

Toronto being a legit contender this year is along the same lines of the Nets being legit contenders this year.

They are playing well and the future is bright ... but come on.


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## HB

They have a chance alright, just about every team that makes the playoffs does. But I'd like them to win the Atlantic first, which I don't even think they will.


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## hroz

Im going to back KidCanada up and say that Toronto is a legit contender in the *East* rememeber they are only 4 games behind the Wizards and only 2.5 games behind the Bulls (4th best record) plus they are closing on these teams. They could get one of the top 4 records in the East and make the Finals. Dont discount it. But what stands against them is that they are a young inexperienced team with no standout player who has been there and done it before.


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## HB

JNice said:


> Toronto being a legit contender this year is along the same lines of the Nets being legit contenders this year.
> 
> They are playing well and the future is bright ... but come on.


Is Orlando a contender?


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## Air Fly

Pretty good team we have and hard to beat at home. I'd give it some time though before I say if they're legit contenders. Bosh is looking scary though, I didn't see it coming. He has been playing great since he came back from the injury.


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## Air Fly

HB said:


> Is Orlando a contender?


After the beatdown they gave the NETS, I'd say they're one swingman away from being a _real_ contender.


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## JNice

HB said:


> Is Orlando a contender?


No. 

There are only 3 teams in the East that _maybe_ have a chance at actually winning it all. Detroit, Miami, and maybe Cleveland.


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## Jizzy

HB said:


> Is Orlando a contender?



They have Dwight Howard. Remeber, Dwight > God.


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## Jizzy

Air Fly said:


> After the beatdown they gave the NETS, I'd say they're one swingman away from being a _real_ contender.



LOL, no they're not.


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## Dissonance

HB said:


> Is Orlando a contender?



What did NJ/Toronto comparison have to do with Orlando? That is what I am trying to understand.


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## One on One

LOL, love these Friday night posts...put the beer down.


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## Jizzy

KidCanada said:


> Why is this thread dumb? I know you're a Nets fan, or in other words: an automatic Raps hater, but try and put things in perspective. This is the East were talking about. There is no elite team in the East, everyone is beatable.
> 
> I think the Raps extremely underrated and underlooked on these boards. They're in Canada and they have a lot of Euro players who have names that are hard to pronounce, but watch them play, they have the tools to make a run.
> 
> 
> BTW, I've watched pretty much every Raps game this year and their better than their record shows. They started of 1-7, but the fact is this team went through a complete overhaul last offseason and it was only inevitable that it would take time to gel. Since then they've climbed their way back to 500 even though they've struggled with constant injuries to their primary players.
> 
> So yep..they're legit IMO.


*
*edited: Make a basketball-related point or statement, not a personal one**


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## HB

Washington and Detroit. The two best teams in the East. Orlando really solid team. Cleveland very spotty team. Everyone else comes after. Thats how I rank the teams in the East. Toronto if they have a favorable first round, could very well advance to the finals.


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## HB

Dissonance19 said:


> What did NJ/Toronto comparison have to do with Orlando? That is what I am trying to understand.


Pulling JNice's legs and he answered that one really well, I am impressed.


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## Air Fly

Jizzy said:


> LOL, no they're not.


If they acquire an elite swingman via trade or whatever, they'll become real contender and a threat to win it all. Dwight Howard is a monster.


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## c_dog

key words "in the east". i say yes because the east is wide open this year. wizards started out poor but is now the best of the east. losing jamison could hurt their record a bit, and with the momentum clearly with the raptors right now they could definitely make a push and get homecourt come playoff time.

i still think the pistons, especially with webber, is the team to beat in the east, but wizards, bulls, raptors, cavs, even the heat if they make the playoffs all have a chance. like it's been said many time, the east is wide open without a team that's clearly better than everyone else.


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## Jizzy

Air Fly said:


> If they acquire an elite swingman via trade or whatever, they'll become real contender and a threat to win it all. Dwight Howard is a monster.



No.

You know what, hopefully Vince gets traded there, Air Fly. Hopefully he does.

A threat to win it all? Let's let them make the playoffs first please. Dwight could be a moster on the boards but his offensive game still isn't very good other then dunking the ball.


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## Air Fly

Jizzy said:


> No.
> 
> You know what, hopefully Vince gets traded there, Air Fly. Hopefully he does.
> 
> A threat to win it all? Let's let them make the playoffs first please. Dwight could be a moster on the boards but his offensive game still isn't very good other then dunking the ball.



I'd take that over soft Krstic and mighty Collins anyday. I don't like my big man to lay it up rather dunk it with power. Dwight does that on the regular. Reminds me of young Shaq.

now back on topic.....


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## Jizzy

Air Fly said:


> I'd take that over soft Krstic and mighty Collins anyday. I don't like my big man to lay it up rather dunk it with power. Dwight does that on the regular. Reminds me of young Shaq.



Me to honestly but you don't really beleive Dwight could survive on dunks alone when the game slows down and it turns into a halfcourt game. A young Shaq was way more polished then Howard is now.

But Air Fly, do you judge a player on his dunking ability? Is that why you like Carter? What if I told you Vince lost his dunking will?


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## JNice

Jizzy said:


> No.
> 
> You know what, hopefully Vince gets traded there, Air Fly. Hopefully he does.
> 
> A threat to win it all? Let's let them make the playoffs first please. Dwight could be a moster on the boards but his offensive game still isn't very good other then dunking the ball.


lol ... same old tired argument. Dwight is shooting about 98% on dunks. Works for me.

If Orlando plays their cards right they could be legit contenders in two years easy. They need to keep the core together, get more experience, and add some 3 pt shooting.


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## Pimped Out

toronto isnt a contender from the east. they might make a splash and scare a team like detroit, but the chances of them making the finals are very slim


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## Air Fly

Jizzy said:


> Me to honestly but you don't really beleive Dwight could survive on dunks alone when the game slows down and it turns into a halfcourt game. A young Shaq was way more polished then Howard is now.
> 
> But Air Fly, do you judge a player on his dunking ability? Is that why you like Carter? What if I told you Vince lost his dunking will?


Dwight puts on the move on his man then dunks it. It's not a free lane you know, dudes knows how to get by his man even if he's yet not as verstatile as Duncan on the offensive end. I like Carter as an overall player.

dammn, this thread is now about Howard and Orlando..


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## Sir Patchwork

HB said:


> Washington and Detroit. The two best teams in the East. Orlando really solid team. Cleveland very spotty team. Everyone else comes after. Thats how I rank the teams in the East. Toronto if they have a favorable first round, could very well advance to the finals.


You severely underrated Chicago, but somehow I'm not surprised. For all this talk about not having a post scorer, Washington sure became the darling of this board in a hurry. 

Realistically, Detroit is still the class of the east, while Miami will be very difficult to beat come playoff time. Cleveland, Washington and Chicago follow after that in no particular order.


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## HB

Sir Patchwork said:


> You severely underrated Chicago, but somehow I'm not surprised. For all this talk about not having a post scorer, Washington sure became the darling of this board in a hurry.
> 
> Realistically, Detroit is still the class of the east, while Miami will be very difficult to beat come playoff time. Cleveland, Washington and Chicago follow after that in no particular order.


My bad, honestly it slipped my mind. I'd say Washington, Chi and Detroit are the top dogs in the East. But really it doesnt say much.


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## Jizzy

Washington is winning the East. Detroit cannot match up with them.


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## ChristopherJ

Hmm Raps really seem to be overlooked. We'll see how they do this month. I think they have 10 games against teams with a better than .500 record.


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## JNice

Jizzy said:


> Washington is winning the East. Detroit cannot match up with them.


Washington won't beat Detroit in a 7 game series assuming relative health. Ain't happening.


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## cpawfan

Besides overrating Bosh, the thread starter has a point. Any team that makes the East playoffs has a chance because the Conference is that bad. Yes Detroit is the best team and Washington, Cleveland and Chicago are better than the rest of the division, but all three of them have to prove it in the playoffs. I expect Miami to get it together and be the most dangerous team in the playoffs, but they are and will continue to be fragile. A tweaked ankle or Shimmy deciding not to play team first basketball is always just a bounce of the ball away.

However, it isn't often that the lesser team wins in a 7 game series, but it happened multiple times last season, so who knows.


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## ChristopherJ

Jizzy said:


> Washington is winning the East. Detroit cannot match up with them.


Toronto has handled the Wizards relatively easily both times this year.


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## HB

KidCanada said:


> Hmm Raps really seem to be overlooked. We'll see how they do this month. I think they have 10 games against teams with a better than .500 record.


Say Bye to the Atlantic division lead


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## JNice

KidCanada said:


> Hmm Raps really seem to be overlooked. We'll see how they do this month. I think they have 10 games against teams with a better than .500 record.


They aren't being overlooked. It is logic and precedence. Raps have a very new group of guys together and are built around a relatively young and inexperienced core. How often do teams like that go far into the playoffs? They have a much better looking future that they used to, that is for sure ... but you are setting unrealistic expectations.


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## Jizzy

JNice said:


> Washington won't beat Detroit in a 7 game series assuming relative health. Ain't happening.



Yes it is. Washington is 2-0, I beleive, against Detroit this season and Gilbert has a high scoring average against Detroit. Not to mention there is no cover for Antwan Jamsion. If the Wizards get Jamal Magloire, that would just seal it.


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## Jizzy

KidCanada said:


> Toronto has handled the Wizards relatively easily both times this year.


Toronto is not even going to make the playoffs.


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## cpawfan

KidCanada said:


> Toronto has handled the Wizards relatively easily both times this year.


The Nets had a winning record over the Heat in the regular season last year. The regular season records mean squat in the playoffs.


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## ChristopherJ

cpawfan said:


> Besides overrating Bosh, the thread starter has a point.


*"Both is one of the most talented big men in the league"*

He's top ten in scoring, rebounds, and effiency for big men. I'd say that puts him as one of the "most talented big men" category.

I don't want to argue semantics though...but...

How do you think I overrated him?


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## One on One

KidCanada said:


> Toronto has handled the Wizards relatively easily both times this year.


Twice in Canada...one time after Gilbert's big party where the whole team was tired, the other on a back-to-back after we beat the Pistons and had to travel from DC to Toronto. We'll see what happens in Washington next time.


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## JNice

Jizzy said:


> Yes it is. Washington is 2-0, I beleive, against Detroit this season and Gilbert has a high scoring average against Detroit. Not to mention there is no cover for Antwan Jamsion. If the Wizards get Jamal Magloire, that would just seal it.


lol .. so Magloire is their saving grace? You're worse off than it thought.

No cover for Jamison? I'd feel fine with either TPrince or Raweed on him.

And regular season records for one vs one mean nothing. You should know that.


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## adhir1

Jizzy said:


> Toronto is not even going to make the playoffs.


care to wager?


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## ChristopherJ

cpawfan said:


> The Nets had a winning record over the Heat in the regular season last year. The regular season records mean squat in the playoffs.


It's just a way of judging how the Raps stand up to some of the "top" teams in the East. Not only do they have a winning record against the Wiz, they've beat them easily.

Of course I'm not saying that means everything, but it means something. They can handle top teams.


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## NetsKnight

Right now I'd say they are more a couple of pieces away from being a legit title contender. If Ford is healthy they can beat anyone b/c he will force the tempo similar to what Nash does. If he improves his shooting it will make them that much more dangerous. They still need a shooter or two and someone else to put alongside Bosh. Maybe a year or two they will be legit contenders. This draft is redonkulously deep so they could find that guy put alongside Bosh, unless they think they already have him in Bargnani, who seems to be playing just fine and adjusting to the NBA game just fine.


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## Jizzy

JNice said:


> lol .. so Magloire is their saving grace? You're worse off than it thought.
> 
> No cover for Jamison? I'd feel fine with either TPrince or Raweed on him.
> 
> And regular season records for one vs one mean nothing. You should know that.



No, Magloire is not there saving grace but he would propell them over Detorit. Jamison, the same Jamsion who dropped 30+ on the road against this same Detroit team. To bad Jamsion kept taking Sheed off the dribble that game and Prince was covering Butler.

Honestly, watch games, make reasonable opinions.


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## ChristopherJ

Jizzy said:


> Toronto is not even going to make the playoffs.


You don't like the Raptors, you've already been edited 3 times for insulting me for making this thread, and now you're just looking for confrontation my making statements that you hope piss of Raptors fans. 

Sorry, but no one is biting.


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## Jizzy

adhir1 said:


> care to wager?



I'll bet you one JNice.


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## Jizzy

KidCanada said:


> You don't like the Raptors, you've already been edited 3 times for insulting me for making this thread, and now you're just looking for confrontation my making statements that you hope piss of Raptors fans.
> 
> Sorry, but no one is biting.



Umm.. If I say the Hawks don't make the playoffs, does that mean I hate them to?

Funny how insecure some of you guys are about your team. One negative comment and you just start the accsuing of how "You hate my team", "You're biased".

A guy can't even have an opinion anymore without some fans just coming in and start bashing.


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## JNice

Jizzy said:


> No, Magloire is not there saving grace but he would propell them over Detorit. Jamison, the same Jamsion who dropped 30+ on the road against this same Detroit team. To bad Jamsion kept taking Sheed off the dribble that game and Prince was covering Butler.
> 
> Honestly, watch games, make reasonable opinions.


Magloire propels them over Detroit? When is the last time you saw the guy play? 4 years ago? Crickey.

I don't care what Jamison has dropped on Detroit. Washington can't be Detroit in a 7 game series, Magloire or not.


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## MrkLrn13

Damn this Nets fans...they're just mad they got pwned by Orlando. LMFAO


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## Jizzy

MrkLrn13 said:


> Damn this Nets fans...they're just mad they got pwned by Orlando. LMFAO


Totally pissed, dude.


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## Jizzy

JNice said:


> Magloire propels them over Detroit? When is the last time you saw the guy play? 4 years ago? Crickey.
> 
> I don't care what Jamison has dropped on Detroit. Washington can't be Detroit in a 7 game series, Magloire or not.



Great elaboration. Your word speaks for itself, JNice.


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## NetsKnight

JNice said:


> Magloire propels them over Detroit? When is the last time you saw the guy play? 4 years ago? Crickey.
> 
> I don't care what Jamison has dropped on Detroit. Washington can't be Detroit in a 7 game series, Magloire or not.


This isn't the same Detroit team as the last few years. The Wizards have proven they can play and win against the elite in the league. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Wizards in the ECF. I wouldn't be surprised if any ECF team that made the playoffs got to the ECF. The Eastern Conference sucks.


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## JNice

Jizzy said:


> Great elaboration. Your word speaks for itself, JNice.


I don't need to elaborate. I know it won't happen. Detroit knows how to win in the playoffs, Washington does not. And Detroit also just added a guy for 1 mil a year who can get 20-10 on any given night. And you want to point to Magloire? Gimme a break. Washington is a good team. Great trio. Their frontcourt is very mediocre and Magloire doesn't help much. Detroit's ability to D far exceeds Washington's. Can't beat Detroit in 7 games.


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## cpawfan

KidCanada said:


> *"Both is one of the most talented big men in the league"*
> 
> He's top ten in scoring, rebounds, and effiency for big men. I'd say that puts him as one of the "most talented big men" category.
> 
> I don't want to argue semantics though...but...
> 
> How do you think I overrated him?


I say it puts him as one the best stat accumulators.


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## ChristopherJ

Jizzy said:


> Umm.. If I say the Hawks don't make the playoffs, does that mean I hate them to?


There's a difference between a 4th place team in the East and a bottom feeder like Atlanta.



Jizzy said:


> Funny how insecure some of you guys are about your team. One negative comment and you just start the accsuing of how "You hate my team", "You're biased".


I'm not insecure at all. You've been edited 3 times now for insulting me for making this thread. That isn't one negative comment. And it's not even the childish insults, it's the failure to elaborate and support your opinion. You're upset about people bashing your opinion, but you havn't provided any substance so of course people are going to ignore what you say.

I mean seriously. You're touting the Wiz as the frontrunners in the East, while claiming the Raptors as a lottery pick team. I hate to bring it up again, but the Raps have handled the Wiz easily in both their meetings. The Raps just won coach, player, and rookie of the month; they are coming on strong, not falling back.

I have reasons to say the Raps are a contender, you have nothing to say as to why the Raps aren't even a playoff team.

And then you actually wonder why I think you're just Raps hater? Get real.


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## Jizzy

I really don't want to get into this much deeper but adding an inconsistent, hobbled Webber doesn't really boost Detroit much further. Sure, he can give you 20-10 any given night, doesnt mean he can't do it consistently or can be relied on night in and night out.

Jamsion and Caron Butler are frontcourt players for Washington. They play the 3 and 4 respectively. And I do think trading for Magloire would be a great addition for that team. Don't really get how you can call Jamsion and Butler mediocre.


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## ChristopherJ

cpawfan said:


> I say it puts him as one the best stat accumulators.


Well you certainly have the right to your opinion, but as someone who watches Bosh play on a frequent basis I can tell you right now he isn't just some stat padder.


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## Sir Patchwork

I still say Miami is the favorite to come out of the east. I look at all these records and just think to myself, these teams still have to beat Miami in a series and I just don't see it happenening. Zo, Shaquille and Haslem can still bully any frontcourt in the east, and Wade is still the premiere guard in the east with the playoff experience and knack for big game performances. Everyone else on the roster is just filling spots, but it's sad that Miami can blow off the regular season this bad and still very conceivably get to the finals. That's how low the east is right now.


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## Jizzy

KidCanada said:


> There's a difference between a 4th place team in the East and a bottom feeder like Atlanta.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not insecure at all. You've been edited 3 times now for insulting me for making this thread. That isn't one negative comment. And it's not even the childish insults, it's the failure to elaborate and support your opinion. You're upset about people bashing your opinion, but you havn't provided any substance so of course people are going to ignore what you say.
> 
> I mean seriously. You're touting the Wiz as the frontrunners in the East, while claiming the Raptors as a lottery pick team. I hate to bring it up again, but the Raps have handled the Wiz easily in both their meetings. The Raps just won coach, player, and rookie of the month; they are coming on strong, not falling back.
> 
> I have reasons to say the Raps are a contender, you have nothing to say as to why the Raps aren't even a playoff team.
> 
> And then you actually wonder why I think you're just Raps hater? Get real.


[/QUOTE]



Elaborate and support my opinion???????? What the hell have I been doing posting in this thread for other then elaborating my opinion. Substance?????? I can't even beleive this.

Who cares if the Raps handled the Wizards. The Wiz are a lock for a playoff spot, the Raps are not. Could they make it? Sure. Doesn't mean they are and IMO, they aren't becuase they are a mediocre basketball team.

This thread is your opinion, stop acting as if it all factual. Your reasoning to me is not good enough to convince me of your point.

Why must you take offense to your team if I personally attack you? I'm not a Raps hater, I just disagree with what you're saying yet you act as if I'm attacking your team for some reason.


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## cpawfan

KidCanada said:


> Well you certainly have the right to your opinion, but as someone who watches Bosh play on a frequent basis I can tell you right now he isn't just some stat padder.


I'm not calling him a stat padder as that is someone that makes it their goal to just get stats. What I'm saying is that just because Bosh accumulates certain stats it doesn't impress me.


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## madman

I would say no, only because of their complete inexperience, the most playoff games played on our team is Sam Mitchell. Thats right the coach has played in more playoff games then anyone on our roster. Other then him the only guys to have made it to the post-season are Mo Peterson, Rasho Nesterovic and Fred Jones. We might be able to pull out a couple of upsets but I dont really see us going to the finals this year.


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## Air Fly

cpawfan said:


> I'm not calling him a stat padder as that is someone that makes it their goal to just get stats. What I'm saying is that just because Bosh accumulates certain stats *it doesn't impress me.*


It doesn't have to. You're entitled to your own thinking. The majority will agree Bosh is one of the most talented big men in the nba.


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## Sir Patchwork

Air Fly said:


> It doesn't have to. You're entitled to your own thinking. The majority will agree Bosh is one of the most talented big men in the nba.


He is more talented than he is effective.


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## Air Fly

Sir Patchwork said:


> He is more talented than he is effective.


So far, he's both. Player of the month baby!


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## ChristopherJ

cpawfan said:


> I'm not calling him a stat padder as that is someone that makes it their goal to just get stats. What I'm saying is that just because Bosh accumulates certain stats it *doesn't impress me*.


Why not?


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## ChristopherJ

Sir Patchwork said:


> He is more talented than he is effective.


Why isn't he effective?

All these general statements and no explanations as to why.


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## firstrounder

Wow. Just wow, Jizzy. Raps won't make the playoffs? And I suppose your Nets will? Thats a laugh and a half.

How about your Nets try not to lose by 30 next game, OK?

LOL

As a Raptors fan I'm really optimistic about our future. In 3 years, Bosh will be just 25, TJ 26, and Bargnani 24. But even though our best days lie ahead, I also feel that this year we could make some noise. I do think we will win the Atlantic, we have an easier schedule than the Nets, and we're really rounding into form. The team started 2-8 because there were so many new faces, a bunch of guys playing NBA ball for the first time. But since that 2-8 start the team is 22-15, theres no reason why they shouldnt end up with a 43 or 44 wins, which should be enough to take the Atlantic. That would mean home court advantage for round 1, and I think we could win the first round, and then probably lose in the conference semis, but who knows? Just getting to see playoff games again in Toronto would be great!

Raptors aren't a contender, but I'm of the opinion that NO ONE from the East is. All of the top teams in the league reside in the West.

Could the Raptors come out of the East? Sure, but ANY team who makes the playoffs could. Its that weak. But whoever emerges will be spanked by whoever comes out of the West (hopefully Phoenix).


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## firstrounder

Sir Patchwork said:


> He is more talented than he is effective.


Have ever seen Chris Bosh play?

Because comments like that are just plain stupid.

Chris Bosh is 22 years old. At 21, he averaged 23 and 9.

At age 22, he is averaging 23 and 11.

He has been extremely clutch for the Raptors as well.

For anyone to question his effectiveness is beyond stupid.

How good will he be in 3 years at age 25?


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## Sir Patchwork

KidCanada said:


> Why isn't he effective?
> 
> All these general statemens and no explanations as to why.


He is effective. I said he isn't as effective as his talent and stats would leave you to believe. He is a top 10 power forward.


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## Air Fly

Yup, it's like they didn't know Bosh has just won player of the month honor. How did he get it though if he wasn't effective? I usually agree with Sir, but he came way off on that one.


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## Air Fly

Sir Patchwork said:


> He is effective. I said he isn't as effective as his talent and stats would leave you to believe. He is a top 10 power forward.


Why because he has yet to make the playoffs or what's your reasoning?


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## ChristopherJ

Sir Patchwork said:


> He is effective. I said he isn't as effective as his talent and stats would leave you to believe. He is a top 10 power forward.


And why is that? Can you please try and elaborate and what you're saying. Geez.


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## Sir Patchwork

Air Fly said:


> Why because he has yet to make the playoffs or what's your reasoning?


For a "big" man he needs to get bigger. He is actually closer to average for a starting power forward than the top. Basically though, he is a good player, but I see him in the same light as Zach Randolph. Not a superstar or a top 10 big man in the league but a good player. I don't see him leading anyone to any titles or even contender status.


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## cpawfan

KidCanada said:


> Why not?


I'm not impressed by stat accumulators such as JON and Zach.


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## ChristopherJ

cpawfan said:


> I'm not impressed by stat accumulators such as JON and Zach.


What's the difference between Bosh, a stat accumulator who doesn't impress you, compared to other players who have the same stats? If he isn't a stat padder then what is a stat accumulator? And why is it any less impressive than other big men?

Hint: Try writing more than one line so people can actually try and understand what you're saying.


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## firstrounder

Sir Patchwork said:


> he is a good player, but I see him in the same light as Zach Randolph. Not a superstar or a top 10 big man in the league but a good player. I don't see him leading anyone to any titles or even contender status.


What did you expect him to do to this point in his career? Averaging 23 and 9 at age 21, and then 23 and 11 at age 22 isnt enough for you? He's almost singlehandedly brought Toronto to the top of the Atlantic division this year, and to a potential top 4 seed in the East, as a TWENTY-TWO YEAR OLD!


Clearly he didnt get your vote, but thankfully enough people out there appreciate him for the star he is that he was voted to start the all-star game.


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## DHarris34Phan

With all due respect, KC, the Toronto Raptors have a snowballs chance in hell to make it to the Finals.

The East is not weak at the top, but from 5-15, they are very mediocre, or they suck. One of Detroit, Miami, Washington, and Cleveland are going to come outta the East. In the East, that is just the way it is. 

Toronto is towards the top of the 5-15 category, thus having no chance at the Finals. They will give someone a good series in the playoffs, but their runs are still a few years away.

The fact they won't make the Finals isn't a knock on them, it is just unrealistic. They also gotta make the playoffs first.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

firstrounder said:


> Clearly he didnt get your vote, but thankfully enough people out there appreciate him for the star he is that he was voted to start the all-star game.


Actually I didn't vote at all, but he would have had my vote, mainly because the forward situation in the east is pretty pathetic. Not in the west though. Too many guys better than him.


----------



## Dee-Zy

raptors are a contendor for the atlantic, not the east



<------- raptors fan.


To be fair, Heat are still my fav team but wtv...


----------



## jayk009

I dont know if they are legit!

NO ONE KNOWS!


Want to know?


DO u like suspense?



DO you like TO?


THen I Got the "answer" for you!


....................


..................


....................






..................





WOWWAWEEEWA


----------



## BDB

my bad double post


----------



## BDB

I want Toronto to make the playoffs the Atlantic needs another good team.
Don't get why a Net fan would hate on them it's a lot like when Kidd came to Jersey and the Nets made the finals.


----------



## firstrounder

DHarris34Phan said:


> With all due respect, KC, the Toronto Raptors have a snowballs chance in hell to make it to the Finals.
> 
> The East is not weak at the top, but from 5-15, they are very mediocre, or they suck. One of Detroit, Miami, Washington, and Cleveland are going to come outta the East. In the East, that is just the way it is.
> 
> Toronto is towards the top of the 5-15 category, thus having no chance at the Finals. They will give someone a good series in the playoffs, but their runs are still a few years away.
> 
> The fact they won't make the Finals isn't a knock on them, it is just unrealistic. They also gotta make the playoffs first.



Whats unrealistic is how you say that Toronto has no chance, while you label Miami as an EC contender. Last time I checked Miami was 21-25.

Toronto is 24-23.

Miami is 4 games below .500, all the while playing in the pathetic East. Can we FINALLY stop considering them contenders now?

And Cleveland or Washington? A 7 game series would be over in 6 games against either of those 2. In favour of Toronto.

Detroit I'll give you, and you could add Chicago. Either of those teams would wipe my Raptors in a 7-game series. But thats it.


----------



## Pain5155

as on now raps are a 2nd round playoff team. Next year they have the potential to go farther.


----------



## Mateo

You really think second round? Well, assuming they win the atlantic which is no guarantee by any stretch of the imagination, they would play Cleveland, who are 7 games over .500 and have experience as a second round team from last year. I wouldn't bet in favor of Toronto in that series.


----------



## firstrounder

I would. We always beat Cleveland. They are overrated because of Lebron.


----------



## slash_010

how is Miami a contender when they cant win games. Let them reach an overall winning record and then talk about contending... Let them hold onto a playoff spot and then talk about contending..for now, they are team competing to get into the playoff... PERIOD

I will believe it when i see it.. 

As for all the other teams with a winning records and are in the playoff spot have more reasons to be called contenders than Miami. Its too premature to call their game when they didnt elevate just yet.


----------



## Mateo

firstrounder said:


> I would. We always beat Cleveland. They are overrated because of Lebron.


they have a _significantly better record_. We're not talking about just abstract arguments for both teams, we've seen half the season. Cleveland has "underachieved" their way to 7 games over .500.


----------



## BG7

I think Bulls are underrated when talking about who is coming out of the East. They match up quite well with Dallas and San Antonio once they get to the finals...Phoenix would be their main problem, and it'd probably be a sweep, and Rockets would be their 2nd biggest problem since Bull don't have a 7 footer right now.

But still, Bulls are the top team within conference. Wins over Washington, Detroit, Cleveland....

Bulls should be better than they are though! Point differential is supposed to be a good indicator of how well a team will do in the playoffs, Bulls are #1 in the East (Pistons #2). The only teams better than the Bulls in this are Suns, Spurs, Mavericks, and Rockets. Kevin Pelton actually did an article a little while back, and the Bulls were the #3 most inconsistent team since 2000, the 2001-2002 Kings, and the 2002-2003 Celtics were ahead of them. Just behind them were last years Cavs (remember how good Cavs played in the playoffs last year.)

If I had to put down the 3 teams I thought were most likely to win the title, it'd be the Central Division Three, Bulls, Pistons, and Cavs. 

3 wins over Miami.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Anyone could win he east. Its all in the matchups. Here are my keys to succes for each team.
Detroit- platy teams that are slower 
Washington- play slower teams 
Chicago- play slower teams and without good defense
Orlando- play less experienced teams and without big men
New Jersey- play teams without big men and who have bad guards 
Toronto-play less experienced teams and without good guards
Indiana- play teams without big men and guards
Cleveland-play bad defensive teams


----------



## Crossword

cpawfan said:


> I say it puts him as one the best stat accumulators.


That is absurd. I wasn't even going to post in this thread, but wow. Bosh, compared to other players of his (all star) caliber around the league, has minimal plays designed specifically for him, and does not rely on isos or plays run for him to get his stats. He plays within the team's concept which is to find the best shot available, whether it's inside or out. Even in situations where the Raptors run plays for Bosh, he often passes up shots for a better look elsewhere, and he's one of the better passing big men out there. The main reason his assist numbers aren't higher is because the Raptors' offense involves lots of passing, so even though he may not get credit for the dish, he still has an impact on the team game. Calling him a stat whore (which is what you are doing) is outlandish and suggests you have no clue what you're talking about. I expect much more out of you man, even if you have a Nets fan bias.


----------



## Crossword

As for this thread, we might not be legit contenders quite yet, but the only teams I don't want to face in the playoffs are the Bulls, Pistons, and healthy Heat. Other than that, nobody scares me as a Raptors fan.


----------



## Crossword

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Anyone could win he east. Its all in the matchups. Here are my keys to succes for each team.
> New Jersey- play teams without big men and who have bad guards


Translation: they're screwed.


----------



## Crossword

HB said:


> Say Bye to the Atlantic division lead


Why so? The Raptors are also a +.500 team, and are just picking up steam now. We've had a tough schedule so far but we've still shown that we can consistently hang with the best teams in the L. I don't think any opponent really fazes this team enough to destroy the momentum we have going. This is going to be a tough month for the team, but more importantly a character building month. If we come out of February at the same place we're at now, I think that's the best playoff preparation you can get right there.


----------



## cpawfan

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Calling him a stat whore (which is what you are doing)


I'm not calling him a stat whore or a stat padder. If I were, I would have used those terms. Some players just end up with nice glory stats (ie, they accumulate them) without trying to pad their stats. 

Bosh and Randolph have similar glory stats but that doesn't mean I place them in the same stratification of players.


----------



## shookem

If the Raps make the playoffs and I think they will, they might be able to take a series or two, which was a pipe dream just a year ago. Next season could be the first you could really call them contenders, for now Id go with "darkhorse". A lot of what happens next season depends on how the team can finish this one. A strong finish that has the team in the playoffs is a huge step in the right direction.


----------



## ATLien

If they are contenders, it's because they don't have any quitters (Vince Carter) on the team. Just guys who ball the right way.


----------



## chocolove

cpawfan said:


> I'm not calling him a stat whore or a stat padder. If I were, I would have used those terms. Some players just end up with nice glory stats (ie, they accumulate them) without trying to pad their stats.
> 
> Bosh and Randolph have similar glory stats but that doesn't mean I place them in the same stratification of players.


I know what youre saying, some players like Randolph for example can get some pretty good stats but they arent necessarily great players. But I think Bosh has the intangibles to be a great player.


----------



## SoCalfan21

I like how toronto is playing right now especially with them beating down the wiz a few nights ago


----------



## Knick Killer

Look at all these Nets fans...not man enough to admit there team is a *JOKE* and that the Raptors are for real. The Raptors can contend and there going to own the Atlantic for many more years to come. New Jersey is just not good..one guy gets injured and there screwed..the raptors have lost 3 main players in Bosh, Ford and Peterson...and did fine. Look at the Nets..Jefferson and Kristic and they struggle to win any games. Nets fans...wake up..your team just cant compete in the pathetic East anymore. Move over New Jersey...Toronto is the top of the Atlantic Now.


----------



## unluckyseventeen

Hahaha.. funny. As soon as a team goes over .500 in the east, they are considered a "contender" for the conference.

Anybody else find it ironic?.. or maybe it's just so pathetic that it's funny.


----------



## mysterio

How about since Bosh returned, the Raptors have won about 70% of their last 16 games beating the Wizards twice, and losing to the Suns and Mavs by 2 and 1 point, respectively? I like our chances.

With Bosh, the Raptors are playing better than a lot of "contenders," however you want to define it.


----------



## Crossword

cpawfan said:


> I'm not calling him a stat whore or a stat padder. If I were, I would have used those terms. Some players just end up with nice glory stats (ie, they accumulate them) without trying to pad their stats.
> 
> Bosh and Randolph have similar glory stats but that doesn't mean I place them in the same stratification of players.


That's fine, but you're still wrong. Because if you know how Bosh accumulates his stats as you claim, you'd recognize that his impact on the court is much greater than what shows on the stat sheet, which is a fair bit to begin with. Keep underrating Bosh though... the Raptors are still 3 games up on the Nets as it stands now, so obviously Bosh is doing something right that you're oblivious to.

And Randolph is great, but he's not on the same wavelength as Bosh right now.


----------



## BG7

I just don't see Toronto winning.

Once the Bulls finish this road trip (which they have a .666 Win% on), they have a cake walk to the finish line.

So Bulls will probably be the #1 seed. Raptors are pretty much a lock to win the Atlantic, so that'll make them the #4. So say Raptors win in the first round and have to play the Bulls. I just don't see Raptors overcoming the Jalen Rose curse.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

The Nets are not screwed. Chicago gets killed by them. Vince will scre up the Raps. I would just stay away from the Magic and Pistons. The Heat does not scare me one bit.


----------



## Theonee

Toronto suprised me a lot. It is amazing how a good GM can turn a franchise around. Colangelo has a Midas touch. I think come play-off time Toronto will surprise everyone.


----------



## BG7

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> The Nets are not screwed. Chicago gets killed by them. Vince will scre up the Raps. I would just stay away from the Magic and Pistons. The Heat does not scare me one bit.


If you considering winning by 3 and 5 killing...well.....

And I don't think anyone is scared about playing a team that won't be in the playoffs.....

It'll probably shape up to be.

1. Chicago
2. Detroit
3. Toronto
4. Washington
5. Cleveland
6. Miami
7. Orlando
8. Indiana


----------



## ss03

Mebarak said:


> If you considering winning by 3 and 5 killing...well.....
> 
> And I don't think anyone is scared about playing a team that won't be in the playoffs.....
> 
> It'll probably shape up to be.
> 
> 1. Chicago
> 2. Detroit
> 3. Toronto
> 4. Washington
> 5. Cleveland
> 6. Miami
> 7. Orlando
> 8. Indiana


I was just wondering, did you mean to place Toronto at 4th as the division winners, or do you really believe that they will have a better record than Washington?


----------



## mysterio

It's going to take a lot for the Raptors to convince people they have become a legit contender. I think this is a good thing... keeping expectations low, Raptors will surprise some people. BTW, now 12-5 since Bosh's return after convincingly beating a healthy Clippers team.


----------



## JNice

I wonder what some peoples definition of contender is. If anyone actually thinks Toronto has a chance to win a ring this year, they are delusional. That is what I define as a contender.


----------



## ss03

JNice said:


> I wonder what some peoples definition of contender is. If anyone actually thinks Toronto has a chance to win a ring this year, they are delusional. That is what I define as a contender.


Yea I was wondering the same thing, and I'm a Toronto fan but I still don't believe that they can win the championship this year. Tehy're a legitimate playoff team, and could win a few games or series', but not the entire thing. Since they say legit contenders in the East I assume the original poster is asking if they have a legit shot at the Finals, not neceassarily will they win it all; however, I'd still have to say no. Maybe next year, or in a few years, but this year they're a playoff team, and I'll take it.


----------



## mysterio

JNice said:


> I wonder what some peoples definition of contender is. If anyone actually thinks Toronto has a chance to win a ring this year, they are delusional. That is what I define as a contender.


The word always depends on the context. The thread defined the scope of contender as in the East, so I'm thinking team with a shot at making it to the EC Finals.


----------



## cpawfan

Budweiser_Boy said:


> That's fine, but you're still wrong.


No, I'm not



> Because if you know how Bosh accumulates his stats as you claim, you'd recognize that his impact on the court is much greater than what shows on the stat sheet, which is a fair bit to begin with.


Obviously Bosh has an impact on the Raptors, but that doesn't make him among the best in the NBA.



> Keep underrating Bosh though...


I'm not, you are overrating him



> the Raptors are still 3 games up on the Nets as it stands now, so obviously Bosh is doing something right that you're oblivious to.


Nice attempt to make this somehow personal, but the Nets are completely irrelevant to this discussion. I expect such inanity from others, but not you.



> And Randolph is great, but he's not on the same wavelength as Bosh right now.


Calling Randolph great demonstrates how little you understand the game


----------



## Adam

cpawfan said:


> Calling Randolph great demonstrates how little you understand the game


Last I checked, Zach Randolph is 1 of only 4 players in the entire league averaging 20 pts and 10 rebounds. Denigrating that kind of skill makes you look idiotic.


----------



## BG7

cpawfan, you have shown so little understanding of the game of basketball, you should be the last one calling someone out over that.


----------



## Crossword

cpawfan said:


> No, I'm not


Of course, that's why the Raptors are 12-5 since his return from injury.



> Obviously Bosh has an impact on the Raptors, but that doesn't make him among the best in the NBA.


That alone doesn't. But that, along with his arsenal of offensive capabilities, his rebounding and shotblocking skills, and his improving defense, does. Right now, only Dirk and Garnett are as or more talented offensively at power forward. He's a top 5 PF in the game right now, and that makes him among the best in the NBA.



> I'm not, you are overrating him


Overrating him? lol, I've barely described his game, how can I be overrating him? All I've said this thread is that he does more for the Raptors than what his stats show, while you're contending the opposite. As someone who actually watches Bosh play on a regular basis, and someone who considers himself to be a fair evaluator of his game, having criticized him on numerous occasions, I can safely say that what I've posted in this thread is accurate. It's no secret that his defense still needs improvement, he's a good rebounder but again could get better there, but for what he is, you're not giving him his due. His offensive repetoire is unparallelled by other eastern PFs - he can score inside, outside, face up, back to basket, whatever defense you throw at him, he either gets a good shot, or more often than not will find a better shot for a teammate. He's also a great passer for a big man, and is generally extremely unselfish. Like I said, the Raptors don't run many isolations for him, and when they do, he looks for the best shot for the team, rather than himself. Stats are deceptive, and Bosh creates a lot more opportunities than he is credited for in the boxscore.



> Nice attempt to make this somehow personal, but the Nets are completely irrelevant to this discussion. I expect such inanity from others, but not you.


It's completely relevant. If Bosh was as you describe him, a mere stat accumulator, the Raptors would not be holding this division lead right now.



> Calling Randolph great demonstrates how little you understand the game


He's a bonafide 20/10 player who can hurt you in several ways, although his defense is week, and that makes him a great player. It doesn't make him one of the league's best, but he's damn good.


----------



## ChristopherJ

Cpawfan can't even explain what he means when he calls Bosh overrated. He says he's a "stat accumulater", but since he doesn't even know what he's talking about, he fails to elaborate beyond that.

I'll ask the queston again: Why is Bosh a stat accumulating, overrated big men, while other players who have the same stats are not? What's the difference?


----------



## ChristopherJ

JNice said:


> I wonder what some peoples definition of contender is. If anyone actually thinks Toronto has a chance to win a ring this year, they are delusional. That is what I define as a contender.


Check the thread title.. it's pretty self explanatory. I'm asking if Toronto is a legit contender to win the East.


----------



## Real

Not this year, but they could win the Atlantic. 

Of course, they are only in contention because the Nets have been playing inconsistenly and hurt the entire season, but I digress.


----------



## ChristopherJ

Real said:


> Not this year, but they could win the Atlantic.
> 
> Of course, they are only in contention because the Nets have been playing inconsistenly and hurt the entire season, but I digress.


They'd be in contention regardless of what division they're in. To actually state they are only in contetion because of the Nets being inconsistent is beyond conceited(I ignored the injury excuse because the Raps have had plenty of them). Only a Nets fan would say something that ridiculous.


----------



## ChristopherJ

Sir Patchwork said:


> For a "big" man he needs to get bigger. He is actually closer to average for a starting power forward than the top. Basically though, he is a good player, but I see him in the same light as Zach Randolph. Not a superstar or a top 10 big man in the league but a good player. I don't see him leading anyone to any titles or even contender status.


Please name 10 big men better than Chris Bosh.


----------



## streetballa

Maybe were not going to be serious contenders in the playoffs, but i see us winning the atlantic division. We are 25-23 and a few games ahead of NJ, if we keep playing like we are now then we will win the division.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

WTF of course the Raps are contending beacause the Nets were plauged by injury. Otherwise the Nets would be a 50 win team just like last year. They are better than last year cause now thay have a bench. Please explain to me how Toronto is a lock to win the Atlanic. Also will someone else please tell me how Miami is a lock to make the playoffs. I dont even konw if they will. Evereyone is a legite contender everyone. The Nets totally dominated Chicago by coming back from an 18 point lead. NJ is going to the playoffs and I hope they get to play Chicago cause they will own thwem.


----------



## cpawfan

adam said:


> Last I checked, Zach Randolph is 1 of only 4 players in the entire league averaging 20 pts and 10 rebounds. Denigrating that kind of skill makes you look idiotic.


No, being easily impressed by stats makes you look idiotic.

Zach's defense and passing are far below average.


----------



## cpawfan

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Of course, that's why the Raptors are 12-5 since his return from injury


That's nice, but not material to the discussion.



> That alone doesn't. But that, along with his arsenal of offensive capabilities, his rebounding and shotblocking skills, and his improving defense, does. Right now, only Dirk and Garnett are as or more talented offensively at power forward. He's a top 5 PF in the game right now, and that makes him among the best in the NBA.


No, of course you aren't overrating him 



> Overrating him? lol, I've barely described his game, how can I be overrating him? All I've said this thread is that he does more for the Raptors than what his stats show, while you're contending the opposite. As someone who actually watches Bosh play on a regular basis, and someone who considers himself to be a fair evaluator of his game, having criticized him on numerous occasions, I can safely say that what I've posted in this thread is accurate. It's no secret that his defense still needs improvement, he's a good rebounder but again could get better there, but for what he is, you're not giving him his due. His offensive repetoire is unparallelled by other eastern PFs - he can score inside, outside, face up, back to basket, whatever defense you throw at him, he either gets a good shot, or more often than not will find a better shot for a teammate. He's also a great passer for a big man, and is generally extremely unselfish. Like I said, the Raptors don't run many isolations for him, and when they do, he looks for the best shot for the team, rather than himself. Stats are deceptive, and Bosh creates a lot more opportunities than he is credited for in the boxscore.


You just called him a top 5 PF, so yes you are overrating him. Additionally, you aren't comprehending what I'm saying. I haven't talked down his contribution to the Raptors at all.



> It's completely relevant. If Bosh was as you describe him, a mere stat accumulator, the Raptors would not be holding this division lead right now.


Again you are having a comprehension problem. I haven't talked about Bosh's impact on the Raptors record and it doesn't matter to this debate.



> He's a bonafide 20/10 player who can hurt you in several ways, although his defense is week, and that makes him a great player. It doesn't make him one of the league's best, but he's damn good.


Randolph isn't great. He has good scoring and rebounding skills, but he isn't a complete player which is necessary to be a great player.


----------



## Dre

...So what does any of this mean? If it's conceded that he's top 10, will he read that and play better?


----------



## cpawfan

KidCanada said:


> Cpawfan can't even explain what he means when he calls Bosh overrated. He says he's a "stat accumulater", but since he doesn't even know what he's talking about, he fails to elaborate beyond that.
> 
> I'll ask the queston again: Why is Bosh a stat accumulating, overrated big men, while other players who have the same stats are not? What's the difference?


Try reading the thread again. I gave examples of other stat accumulators.


----------



## ChristopherJ

cpawfan said:


> Try reading the thread again. I gave examples of other stat accumulators.


Try reading my question again. Hopefully 3rd times a charm.

*Why is Bosh a stat accumulating, overrated big men, while other players who have the same stats are not? What's the difference?*

In other words, can you elaborate on why Bosh is overrated instead of just vaguely calling him a "stat accumulater".


----------



## cpawfan

KidCanada said:


> Try reading my question again. Hopefully 3rd times a charm.
> 
> *Why is Bosh a stat accumulating, overrated big men, while other players who have the same stats are not? What's the difference?*
> 
> In other words, can you elaborate on why Bosh is overrated instead of just vaguely calling him a "stat accumulater".


Asking the same question when you clearly don't understand the material already presented is silly. For starters, you are trying to combine stat accumulating and overrated into once concept when they are distinct items. Secondly, I didn't say Bosh is overrated, rather I said you (and Bud Boy) are overrating Bosh.


----------



## ChristopherJ

Why do you think Bosh isn't as good as other big men who have the same stats? Why isn't he one of the great big men in the league? Why is he a stat accumulator? What characteristics does Bosh have that make him less of a player then his stats show?

This is getting ridiculous. Just flippin elaborate on your opinion of Bosh. I actually don't know what you see of Bosh that makes you post the opinions you have. Hence the questions.


----------



## ChristopherJ

Double post.


----------



## Adam

cpawfan said:


> No, being easily impressed by stats makes you look idiotic.
> 
> Zach's defense and passing are far below average.


_Easily_ impressed? The fact that Randolph occupies a list that includes Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Carlos Boozer, and Chris Bosh (if you don't exclude him for injury) and nobody else in the entire league is supposedly unimpressive? Randolph averages 3 offensive rebounds a game which is a testament to his effort.

Your claim about defense was inaccurate as well. Give me some examples of games in which he did not impress you with his defense. Go ahead and recount them from memory. Don't worry about me because I will probably have seen them and can tell you what I think. Surely if you've watched him play and have made the opinion that he is not a good defender this should be easy for you.

Why is it that Randolph and Bosh aren't good players and overrated by their stats? "You wouldn't understand if I told you," is not a sufficient response. At least support your claim or stop posting.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

KidCanada said:


> Please name 10 big men better than Chris Bosh.


Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Gasol, Brand, Boozer, Yao, Amare, Howard, JO. 

Bosh is right there for 11th, but I wouldn't necessarily take him over Randolph or Camby. Camby is a bigger difference maker with rebounding/defense/shotblocking but health is a big thing with him. Randolph is another talented player but I still wouldn't take him over those I listed.


----------



## ChristopherJ

Sir Patchwork said:


> Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Gasol, Brand, Boozer, Yao, Amare, Howard, JO.
> 
> Bosh is right there for 11th, but I wouldn't necessarily take him over Randolph or Camby. Camby is a bigger difference maker with rebounding/defense/shotblocking but health is a big thing with him. Randolph is another talented player but I still wouldn't take him over those I listed.


I hope your opinion isn't the opinion of the majority. I'd say Gasol, Brand(Bosh totally outplayed Brand today), Boozer, and Howard are debatable, but putting JO infront of Bosh? That's assanine, it really is.

And thinking about taking Camby over Bosh? That just takes the cake. Bosh is offensively better in every aspect. It isn't even close.


----------



## Dre

KidCanada said:


> I hope your opinion isn't the opinion of the majority. I'd say Gasol, Brand(Bosh totally outplayed Brand today), Boozer, and Howard are debatable, but putting JO infront of Bosh? That's assanine, it really is.
> 
> And thinking about taking Camby over Bosh? That just takes the cake. Bosh is offensively better in every aspect. It isn't even close.


I hope you aren't masking with assanine..but everyone Patchwork listed is better.


----------



## firstrounder

You would consider taking Camby over Bosh? Then you are insane. Randolph? Look it, quit being a hater. You clearly have something against Bosh.

And I'm sorry, but Gasol is NOT better than Bosh. Whats Gasol's career best season? 20 and 9 last year! Bosh went off for 23 and 9 last year as a 21 year old! Plus Gasol is injury prone.

Bosh is putting up KG-ish numbers at age 22 in terms of points and rebounds. (look it up people Bosh is 23 and 11 this year, KG is 23 and 12)

Ask any Gm in the league if he'd want Bosh or Gasol, the answer is a no-brainer.

I wouldnt trade Bosh for any PF in the league due to his age and upside. In 5 years Bosh will likely be the best PF in the league.


----------



## firstrounder

_Dre_ said:


> I hope you aren't masking with assanine..but everyone Patchwork listed is better.


Because you say so it must be true.

You are ignorant, and uneducated when it comes to basketball.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

I'm not a fan of JO's game either, for the same reason I'm not a fan of Bosh's game. Too many midrange jumpers, and JO is actually a black hole to boot, but his defensive ability puts him above Bosh in my book. Among bigs, I value defense a great deal because if your last line of defense is good, it picks up your whole team's defensive capablities. If it's not, same concept. 

Which brings me to Camby, who is a 13 rebound and 3 blocks per game type player, who at 7'1 or so, also changes a bunch of shots in the paint. Those things alone make him very valuable, but the fact that he isn't a complete liability on offense (ala Ben Wallace) makes him a very valuable player. He has adaquete hands, will finish around the hoop, and can hit the jumper all the way out to 15-18 feet.


----------



## firstrounder

Dont worry Kid Canada, these Bosh haters are already being made to look foolish and its gonna get worse for them. By the end of this season stupid posts where Bosh doesnt get respect will be extinct. 

Keep disrespecting Bosh people, its OK, I actually think its funny. Meanwhile, he just keeps owning all your teams. 

Recognize!


----------



## firstrounder

Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm not a fan of JO's game either, for the same reason I'm not a fan of Bosh's game.


Thats OK, because I'm not a fan of your game as a poster. 

You arent bringing it with every post.

:lol:


----------



## Sir Patchwork

firstrounder said:


> Ask any Gm in the league if he'd want Bosh or Gasol, the answer is a no-brainer.





> Because you say so it must be true.


:greatjob:

BTW, I just phoned up all 30 GM's in the league, and all 30 agreed with me. Just for the record. Oh and they also said the Raptors are not contenders. lol.


----------



## firstrounder

I believe your post needs some Patchwork, Sir.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

firstrounder said:


> Thats OK, because I'm not a fan of your game as a poster.
> 
> You arent bringing it with every post.
> 
> :lol:


We can reverse roles if you want but I don't feel like whining and calling everyone a hater.


----------



## firstrounder

Im sorry Sir Patchwork I'm not down with that kinky role reversal stuff.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

:greatjob:


----------



## cpawfan

adam said:


> _Easily_ impressed? The fact that Randolph occupies a list that includes Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Carlos Boozer, and Chris Bosh (if you don't exclude him for injury) and nobody else in the entire league is supposedly unimpressive? Randolph averages 3 offensive rebounds a game which is a testament to his effort.


Yes, believing that Randolph is near the same class as those others is being easily impressed. 



> Your claim about defense was inaccurate as well. Give me some examples of games in which he did not impress you with his defense. Go ahead and recount them from memory. Don't worry about me because I will probably have seen them and can tell you what I think. Surely if you've watched him play and have made the opinion that he is not a good defender this should be easy for you.


The fact that you were impressed by his defense in any game is hilarious and goes back to the point that you are easily impressed. Go ahead and break down which games he actually made his rotations or wasn't a matador.

If you're so convinced that Zach is impressive with his defense, I highly suggest you visit and post in the Blazers forum



> Why is it that Randolph and Bosh aren't good players and overrated by their stats? "You wouldn't understand if I told you," is not a sufficient response. At least support your claim or stop posting.


Putting Randolph with Bosh is an insult to Bosh. Randolph isn't near Bosh's stratification of players.


----------



## open mike

Denver would trade Camby for Bosh in a second.
Memphis would trade Gasol for Bosh in a second.
Dwight Howard has in no way proved to be better than Bosh. Equal to, Yes.

Bosh is dominating just as Duncan Garnett and Dirk have been doing for multiple seasons. He is steadily improving each year and his stats never fluctuate. He is consistent, unlike Jermaine O'neal.


The raptors have won 10 out of their last 13 and are poised to become a Top-3 team in the East, record wise. Book it.


----------



## Adam

cpawfan said:


> Yes, believing that Randolph is near the same class as those others is being easily impressed.


I said that he is the only 20 and 10 guy like those guys. I didn't say that he is in the same class as Duncan or Garnett. I jumped on your case to begin with because you were slamming Zach Randolph and I think that it's idiotic to slam a 20 and 10 guy. I'll repeat my original stance: you look like idiotic denigrating a 20 and 10 guy. This isn't Mikki Moore you're slamming so you need to back up a bit and look at who you are talking about.

I never once overvalued him or even said he was a superstar. I think he's probably in the top 10 of guys that Sir Patchwork mentioned. I would take off Gasol, Brand, and/or Howard and replace with Randolph. He is in that second tier of PF's behind Garnett, Dirk, Amare, and Duncan.



> The fact that you were impressed by his defense in any game is hilarious and goes back to the point that you are easily impressed. Go ahead and break down which games he actually made his rotations or wasn't a matador.
> 
> If you're so convinced that Zach is impressive with his defense, I highly suggest you visit and post in the Blazers forum
> 
> 
> 
> Putting Randolph with Bosh is an insult to Bosh. Randolph isn't near Bosh's stratification of players.


Are you actually going to defend why you think Randolph and Bosh are not great players?


----------



## ChristopherJ

KidCanada said:


> Why do you think Bosh isn't as good as other big men who have the same stats? Why isn't he one of the great big men in the league? Why is he a stat accumulator? What characteristics does Bosh have that make him less of a player then his stats show?
> 
> This is getting ridiculous. Just flippin elaborate on your opinion of Bosh. I actually don't know what you see of Bosh that makes you post the opinions you have. Hence the questions.


Cpawfan, answer the question.


----------



## cpawfan

firstrounder said:


> Bosh is putting up KG-ish numbers at age 22 in terms of points and rebounds. (look it up people Bosh is 23 and 11 this year, KG is 23 and 12)


A prime example of the over valuing of numbers. Just because players A and B have similar numbers doesn't mean player B is as good as player A


----------



## Knick Killer

Sir Patchwork said:


> :greatjob:
> 
> BTW, I just phoned up all 30 GM's in the league, and all 30 agreed with me. Just for the record. Oh and they also said the Raptors are not contenders. lol.



...do you watch the nba? You must be talkin about WNBA...i never knew there was a womens raptors team. Or maybe you said raptors by accident and meant to say the NETS. Ohh a typo..yeah we'll just say it was that..we wont blame your stupidity on that one. Cant wait to See your *** on the bandwagon in a year or two!


----------



## cpawfan

adam said:


> I said that he is the only 20 and 10 guy like those guys. I didn't say that he is in the same class as Duncan or Garnett. I jumped on your case to begin with because you were slamming Zach Randolph and I think that it's idiotic to slam a 20 and 10 guy. I'll repeat my original stance: you look like idiotic denigrating a 20 and 10 guy. This isn't Mikki Moore you're slamming so you need to back up a bit and look at who you are talking about.


20 and 10 doesn't mean ****. Yeah, they are nice glory stats, but truly meaningless without context. As I said, you are easily impressed and you continue to prove it by talking about 20 & 10.



> I never once overvalued him or even said he was a superstar. I think he's probably in the top 10 of guys that Sir Patchwork mentioned. I would take off Gasol, Brand, and/or Howard and replace with Randolph. He is in that second tier of PF's behind Garnett, Dirk, Amare, and Duncan.


Placing Zach over Brand, Gasol and Howard is completely overvaluing him. 



> Are you actually going to defend why you think Randolph and Bosh are not great players?


There are at most 10 great players in the NBA and Bosh isn't one of them. Randolph doesn't belong in the sentence.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Knick_Killer31 said:


> ...do you watch the nba? You must be talkin about WNBA...i never knew there was a womens raptors team. Or maybe you said raptors by accident and meant to say the NETS. Ohh a typo..yeah we'll just say it was that..we wont blame your stupidity on that one. Cant wait to See your *** on the bandwagon in a year or two!


What the hell are you even talking about? Please review your thoughts and report back to me.


----------



## Knick Killer

Sir Patchwork said:


> What the hell are you even talking about? Please review your thoughts and report back to me.



Well ive read almost all your posts on this thread and I don't agree at all. How many times do you see the Raptors play in a year? 2 maaybe right? Your knowledge on the game is pathetic. Yeah Randolph is 20/10 but look at his squad...theres nobody. Its not that hes that good..its just hes the best they got. Look..all the people saying Oh Bosh is overated and what not..just cant get over the fact that the Raptors are becoming contenders. If there not contenders then why is everyone talking about the Raptors? Recently they've been one of the most talked about teams. People dont talk about crappy teams. I recommend you buy a copy of "*Basketball for Dummies"* Until then Shhhhhh.


----------



## HB

Knick_Killer31 said:


> Well ive read almost all your posts on this thread and I don't agree at all. How many times do you see the Raptors play in a year? 2 maaybe right? Your knowledge on the game is pathetic. Yeah Randolph is 20/10 but look at his squad...theres nobody. Its not that hes that good..its just hes the best they got. Look..all the people saying Oh Bosh is overated and what not..just cant get over the fact that the Raptors are becoming contenders. If there not contenders then why is everyone talking about the Raptors? Recently they've been one of the most talked about teams. People dont talk about crappy teams. I recommend you buy a copy of "*Basketball for Dummies"* Until then Shhhhhh.


You have no respect for Z-bo's game at all. The guy is averaging 24 and 10, and you say its because he is all the Blazers have. How about the fact that teams can afford to double and triple him at will and he still can put up those crazy numbers. Dont act like he is having it easy out there.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Knick_Killer31 said:


> Well ive read almost all your posts on this thread and there all just garbage. How many times do you see the Raptors play in a year? 2 maaybe right? Your knowledge on the game is pathetic. Putting Randolph and Bosh in the same sentence makes you one of the most insane people ive ever met. Yeah Randolph is 20/10 but look at his squad...theres nobody. Its not that hes that good..its just hes the best they got. Look..all the people saying Oh Bosh is overated and what not..just cant get over the fact that the Raptors are becoming contenders. If there not contenders then why is everyone talking about the Raptors? Recently they've been one of the most talked about teams. People dont talk about crappy teams. I recommend you buy a copy of "*Basketball for Dummies"* Until then Shhhhhh.


I think Colangelo himself would let out a chuckle reading your propaganda. Good stuff fella.


----------



## Pimped Out

firstrounder said:


> You would consider taking Camby over Bosh? Then you are insane. Randolph? Look it, quit being a hater. You clearly have something against Bosh.
> 
> And I'm sorry, but Gasol is NOT better than Bosh. Whats Gasol's career best season? 20 and 9 last year! Bosh went off for 23 and 9 last year as a 21 year old! Plus Gasol is injury prone.
> 
> Bosh is putting up KG-ish numbers at age 22 in terms of points and rebounds. (look it up people Bosh is 23 and 11 this year, KG is 23 and 12)
> 
> Ask any Gm in the league if he'd want Bosh or Gasol, the answer is a no-brainer.
> 
> I wouldnt trade Bosh for any PF in the league due to his age and upside. In 5 years Bosh will likely be the best PF in the league.


I really like bosh and i think he is a very good player. maybe not to the extent as some people here but i still like him as a player. but you really lost me when you likened him to KG.


----------



## Knick Killer

HB said:


> You have no respect for Z-bo's game at all. The guy is averaging 24 and 10, and you say its because he is all the Blazers have. How about the fact that teams can afford to double and triple him at will and he still can put up those crazy numbers. Dont act like he is having it easy out there.



Randolph is a great player. I'd take the guy on my team any day..but to say hes better than Bosh..or even as good as Bosh is just Insane. Just incredibly stupid.


----------



## Knick Killer

Sir Patchwork said:


> I think Colangelo himself would let out a chuckle reading your propaganda. Good stuff fella.



What the hell are you even talking about? Please review your thoughts and report back to me.

Where'd i get that from?


----------



## Marshall_42

Sir Patchwork said:


> I think Colangelo himself would let out a chuckle reading your propaganda. Good stuff fella.


Your a known Bosh Hater, You still think Bogut is better player then Bosh right? This is the same guy who said that Bogut can do everything on the court better then Bosh can except score when Bosh was an All-Star last season. I guess it's pretty easy now to say that Bosh is better player then your boy Brand


----------



## ATLien

Wow. It's like these new Rap fans breeded with the Nets posters to create 1 incredibly a new set of posters


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Knick_Killer31 said:


> What the hell are you even talking about? Please review your thoughts and report back to me.
> 
> Where'd i get that from?


Your idol?


----------



## HB

Knick_Killer31 said:


> Randolph is a great player. I'd take the guy on my team any day..but to say hes better than Bosh..or even as good as Bosh is just Insane. Just incredibly stupid.


But yet you dont explain how Bosh is better. Say I havent watched either, am I just supposed to go by what you say. Why is Bosh better than Z-Bo? Statistically you could say Z-bo has the edge, but what makes Bosh better


----------



## Pimped Out

HB said:


> But yet you dont explain how Bosh is better. Say I havent watched either, am I just supposed to go by what you say. Why is Bosh better than Z-Bo? Statistically you could say Z-bo has the edge, but what makes Bosh better


bosh is a better and more willing passer


----------



## Marshall_42

HB said:


> But yet you dont explain how Bosh is better. Say I havent watched either, am I just supposed to go by what you say. Why is Bosh better than Z-Bo? Statistically you could say Z-bo has the edge, but what makes Bosh better


I think The Blazers would Take Bosh in heart beat over Z-Bo if they could...Z-bo is one of the most selfish players in the league, Bosh has a much better FG% and is a much better teammate as well


----------



## Adam

cpawfan said:


> 20 and 10 doesn't mean ****. Yeah, they are nice glory stats, but truly meaningless without context. As I said, you are easily impressed and you continue to prove it by talking about 20 & 10.


You're a joke if you think that 20 and 10 "means ****." I can make a hierarchy to explain it:

Superstar: Duncan
Great: Randolph
Good: Haslem
Serviceable: Mikki Moore
Lousy: Scalabrine

You think that an accomplishment that only 4 other people in the entire league can do is meaningless? You continue to humiliate yourself by suggesting that it is some simple accomplishment. If it was so easy then more people would be doing it because hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake.



> Placing Zach over Brand, Gasol and Howard is completely overvaluing him.


People are too quick to give Howard props for what he is going to be in the future. He hasn't developed his offensive game yet and commits lots of unnecessary turnovers. Gasol is charmin soft, shows no leadership, and is a completely different player from the one that plays for Spain. Brand is having an off year. Either way they are all 2nd tier after Duncan, Garnett, and Dirk and are great players. They aren't just roleplayers so I'm not going to go further and bash them to prove that Randolph is good.



> There are at most 10 great players in the NBA and Bosh isn't one of them. Randolph doesn't belong in the sentence.


In your universe you seem to think that stats can be manipulated easily and mediocre players can pose as superstars when this is in no way the case. You're so suspicious of guys with good looking stats and think you're cool going against the popular belief and supposedly debunking them as phonies. My advice to you would be to lessen your belief that stats are easily corrupted. You think that it's too easy to manipulate them and that's just completely false. You're too critical of players. There's a *clear* difference in the abilities of Randolph and Mikki Moore so implying that Randolph is some scrub who just packs the box score is a little ridiculous.


----------



## ChristopherJ

KidCanada said:


> Cpawfan, answer the question.


Well..your silence speaks volumes. It takes a pretty big fool to question someones opinion by rebuttling with a vague, substance lacking statement about the player. Not only that, but then when I repeatedly ask you to elaborate to try and understand where you're coming from you either duck the question, or flat out ignore it.

Not surprising to be honest, but pathetic and extremely frustrating nonetheless.


----------



## ChristopherJ

Marshall_42 said:


> Your a known Bosh Hater, You still think Bogut is better player then Bosh right? This is the same guy who said that Bogut can do everything on the court better then Bosh can except score when Bosh was an All-Star last season. I guess it's pretty easy now to say that Bosh is better player then your boy Brand


No one eats their words more than Sir Patchwork. Comparing him to Bogut says it all about his opinion on Bosh. I'm not calling him a hater persay, but he's certainly ignorant about Bosh's game.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Marshall_42 said:


> Your a known Bosh Hater, You still think Bogut is better player then Bosh right? This is the same guy who said that Bogut can do everything on the court better then Bosh can except score when Bosh was an All-Star last season. I guess it's pretty easy now to say that Bosh is better player then your boy Brand


And you think Baron Davis is better than Steve Nash. 

Let's all dig up old posts!


----------



## cpawfan

Rest of crap snipped



adam said:


> In your universe you seem to think that stats can be manipulated easily and mediocre players can pose as superstars when this is in no way the case.


Stats aren't manipulated and no where did I say they were. It is the analysis of the stats that is problematic. You analysis for example of the stats is horrid.



> You're so suspicious of guys with good looking stats and think you're cool going against the popular belief and supposedly debunking them as phonies.


Not at all and please spare me the pop psychology. I call them as I see them and if I'm in the minority oh well. 



> My advice to you would be to lessen your belief that stats are easily corrupted. You think that it's too easy to manipulate them and that's just completely false.


Again, you have no clue what you are talking about. 



> You're too critical of players.


Hilarious. Although there are some Vince fans that will agree with you.



> There's a *clear* difference in the abilities of Randolph and Mikki Moore so implying that Randolph is some scrub who just packs the box score is a little ridiculous.


This clearly demonstrates that you haven't comprehended anything is this thread.


----------



## Adam

cpawfan said:


> You analysis for example of the stats is horrid.


My analysis? Funny because I didn't give one. My so-called analysis was saying that you are an idiot for denigrating a 20 and 10 guy. That's right I think that a guy averaging 20 and 10 is not a mediocre player. I must be out of my mind! And that "crap" that you snipped underscored my point and invalidated your argument so I guess that's why you didn't reply to it and just dodged it. That seems to be your m.o.

You do realize that just saying, "You haven't understood anything," and "You have no clue what you are talking about," is a pretty pathetic way of arguing your point? Go back to dodging KidCanada's question because you fail at retorting my stance. Come with some facts before you say that a guy is a stat padder and he is not a good player even though all the stats indicate that he is great.


----------



## cpawfan

KidCanada said:


> Well..your silence speaks volumes. It takes a pretty big fool to question someones opinion by rebuttling with a vague, substance lacking statement about the player. Not only that, but then when I repeatedly ask you to elaborate to try and understand where you're coming from you either duck the question, or flat out ignore it.
> 
> Not surprising to be honest, but pathetic and extremely frustrating nonetheless.


Gosh you're so clever. 

As I stated before, all of your questions have been answered in this thread. In fact, they've been expanded upon in other responses since you asked the questions. The problem is your comprehension and I'm not going to take the time to hold your hand to find them.

I refuse to elaborate why the Surface Area of a Sphere is the derivative of the Volume of a Sphere.


----------



## Adam

cpawfan said:


> Gosh you're so clever.
> 
> As I stated before, all of your questions have been answered in this thread. In fact, they've been expanded upon in other responses since you asked the questions. The problem is your comprehension and I'm not going to take the time to hold your hand to find them.
> 
> I refuse to elaborate why the Surface Area of a Sphere is the derivative of the Volume of a Sphere.


:lol: Once again you reply without answering why Bosh's stats are not as meaningful as other players with similar stats. You sir are a gem.


----------



## cpawfan

adam said:


> My analysis? Funny because I didn't give one. My so-called analysis was saying that you are an idiot for denigrating a 20 and 10 guy.


Yes you did. You stated where you viewed Zach's ranking among other big men. That's your analysis of his stats




> And that "crap" that you snipped underscored my point and invalidated your argument so I guess that's why you didn't reply to it and just dodged it. That seems to be your m.o.


No, it didn't underscore your point. It demonstrated your analysis. When you tell me over and over that a Water molecule is composed of 2 Oxygen atoms and 1 Hydrogen atom it is obvious that there is no point in continuing to discuss the topic.




> You do realize that just saying, "You haven't understood anything," and "You have no clue what you are talking about," is a pretty pathetic way of arguing your point? Go back to dodging KidCanada's question because you fail at retorting my stance. Come with some facts before you say that a guy is a stat padder and he is not a good player even though all the stats indicate that he is great.


I'm not arguing, rather I'm stating facts. You clearly have a comprehension problem since you want to use the faulty logic that Player A is great and has these stats so since Player B has those stats he is great. By that logic one should pay as much for Cubix Zirconium as they would for a diamond


----------



## ChristopherJ

cpawfan said:


> Gosh you're so clever.
> 
> As I stated before, all of your questions have been answered in this thread. In fact, they've been expanded upon in other responses since you asked the questions. The problem is your comprehension and I'm not going to take the time to hold your hand to find them.
> 
> I refuse to elaborate why the Surface Area of a Sphere is the derivative of the Volume of a Sphere.


No they havn't been answered. You havn't explained once why Bosh is a "stat accumulator" while other players with similar stats are not considered "stat accumulators". I keep asking you what the difference is, and until you can figure out an answer you will continue to look like you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Honestly, I'm trying not to attck you or your posts, but the degree at which you're embarrassing yourself right now is unbelievable.

*I'm not even saying your wrong! I just honestly want to know your reasoning*


----------



## cpawfan

adam said:


> :lol: Once again you reply without answering why Bosh's stats are not as meaningful as other players with similar stats. You sir are a gem.


You're continuing the fallacy that stats have a transitive property. Having similar stats as Tim Duncan doesn't mean a player is an equal of Duncan's.


----------



## cpawfan

KidCanada said:


> No they havn't been answered. You havn't explained once why Bosh is a "stat accumulator" while other players with similar stats are not considered "stat accumulators". I keep asking you what the difference is, and until you can figure out an answer you will continue to look like you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> Honestly, I'm trying not to attck you or your posts, but the degree at which you're embarrassing yourself right now is unbelievable.



You're entire premise starts with the false assumption that there is some magic transitive property about stats. Just because players have similar stats doesn't mean that the players are at similar levels. Bosh and Randolph have some similar stats, but Bosh is a much better player.

The same applies for applying labels. Glory stats aren't something magical. You can find players with similar stats where 1 is an All star and 1 isn't. 

Bosh accumulates nice stats to the point that if one believed there was a transitive property they would say he is as good as those that similar stats. Bosh isn't as good as that simplistic analysis would produce and that is why I term him an accumulator. As this thread demonstrates, that simplistic and false analysis is far to prevalent.


----------



## ChristopherJ

Wow. You still havn't answered my question. You're saying there's a difference between the stats Bosh puts up and the stats other players with similar stats put up. I get that. I'm asking you what that difference is?

If you don't answer me this time then I'll know your elevator doesn't reach the top floor.


----------



## Chad

Yes


----------



## cpawfan

KidCanada said:


> Wow. You still havn't answered my question. You're saying there's a difference between the stats Bosh puts up and the stats other players with similar stats put up. I get that. I'm asking you what that difference is?
> 
> If you don't answer me this time then I'll know your elevator doesn't reach the top floor.


Again, the difference is the analysis, not the "stats". You have to analyze each player individually and stats are only part of the data used in the analysis. It is the same answer that I have given multiple times in this thread.

Deng and Okur have similar stats, yet they are very different players.


----------



## ChristopherJ

cpawfan said:


> Again, the difference is the analysis, not the "stats". You have to analyze each player individually and stats are only part of the data used in the analysis. It is the same answer that I have given multiple times in this thread.
> 
> Deng and Okur have similar stats, yet they are very different players.


Holy ****.


----------



## seifer0406

Bosh is clearly better than Randolph, come on now. Bosh has similar stats across the board and has a higher FG%. Not only that, Bosh's range extends all the way to the 3 point line while his 1v1 skills inside is just as good if not better than Randolph. There isn't a big man that Bosh can't take off the dribble in the NBA, if you guys watche him this year you would know. Of course, these are the tangibles. The most obvious intangible is that Bosh is the leader of the Raptors while you can't say the same about Randolph as he has drifted in and out of that role. Of course, than there is the winning percentage of their teams. Raptors are 25-23 and a team on the rise while the Blazers are heading towards the Oden sweepstakes. If anything, Bosh's stats should be valued more since he isn't the one playing for a losing team.


----------



## firstrounder

cpawfan said:


> A prime example of the over valuing of numbers. Just because players A and B have similar numbers doesn't mean player B is as good as player A



And your post is a prime example of twisting words.

Where did I say Bosh was as good as KG? He is not at that level - yet. He needs to do what he is doing for a few more years, AND up the assist and block totals to reach KG level.

I compared the two in REBOUNDS AND POINTS ONLY. Read my post again.


----------



## firstrounder

cpawfan said:


> 20 and 10 doesn't mean ****.


Wow. Just wow. :lol:


----------



## firstrounder

Pimped Out said:


> I really like bosh and i think he is a very good player. maybe not to the extent as some people here but i still like him as a player. but you really lost me when you likened him to KG.


I really can't believe more than one person is this stupid to misread my post. 

TRUE OR FALSE: Looking just at points and rebounds, 23 and 11 is similar to 23 and 12.

If you say yes, then Bosh's REBOUNDING AND POINTS stats are KG-ish.

He is not, however, as good as KG, as I am not an idiot. Nor did I say he was as good as KG. I simply said his rebounding and points stats were KG-ish, because they are. KG however, gives you 5 assists and an extra block a game, which makes him that much better than Bosh.


----------



## cpawfan

firstrounder said:


> Wow. Just wow. :lol:


Yeah, when Pervis Ellison put up 20 points and 11 rebounds in the 1991-1992 season it meant so much.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> WTF of course the Raps are contending beacause the Nets were plauged by injury. Otherwise the Nets would be a 50 win team just like last year. They are better than last year cause now thay have a bench. Please explain to me how Toronto is a lock to win the Atlanic. Also will someone else please tell me how Miami is a lock to make the playoffs. I dont even konw if they will. Evereyone is a legite contender everyone. The Nets totally dominated Chicago by coming back from an 18 point lead. NJ is going to the playoffs and I hope they get to play Chicago cause they will own thwem.


Because the Nets were playing so well when RJ and Krstic were around...... using the injury excuse is lame... we have had Bosh out for over a quarter of our games as well.


----------



## firstrounder

cpawfan just stop it. No one is saying 20 and 10 = best player of all time.

You however, are trying to downplay it as if 20 and 10 is no big deal.


----------



## cpawfan

firstrounder said:


> cpawfan just stop it. No one is saying 20 and 10 = best player of all time.
> 
> You however, are trying to downplay it as if 20 and 10 is no big deal.


It means as much as a triple double or a 5x5. It is interesting, but not significant. 

This reminds me of people getting excited about how wonderful a PG Marbury was because he averaged 20 & 8


----------



## JuniorNoboa

cpawfan said:


> Yeah, when Pervis Ellison put up 20 points and 11 rebounds in the 1991-1992 season it meant so much.


Well I am certainly an advocate of players aometimes being an overrated because they put up good numbers on bad teams... the differential between great teams and awful teams is less then 10% in counting stats, so somebody will score the ball on bad teams.

That being said the Raptors have moved beyond being an awful team to an average team... and somebody has to get some accolades for taking the team to this level.


----------



## SickGame

Sigh, this is ridiculous. I'm going to slowly deal with each point raised in this topic in order to (hopefully) clear up these dragging disputes.
Do remember that I am a raptors fan, yet one that is unbiased and critical.

A) Toronto is NOT a legitimate contender in the East. I say this for various reasons. First of all, they are not of the same pedigree as the Bulls and Pistons. Second of all, they haven't really won big games against legit contenders from both conferences. We haven't posted up convincing wins against the Bulls or Pistons or Utah. We've come close at times but that means nothing. I find it hard to see that the Raptors could win 4(!) games in a best of seven series. It might be possible against Washington, Orlando and mid-calibre teams such as that but not the pick of the crop.

B) Chris Bosh is a top 5 POWER forward in the league (this can be disputed and I will say why later on). He is nowhere out of the top 10. 
First of all, some posters seem to put Centers up for discussion. Howard, Yao and Camy should not be in the same dicussion as Bosh as they are centers. This means that their job is inherently more defensive minded. Essentially, their role(s) is to grab the majority of rebounds and change the way an opposing offense plays and attacks the paint. It's for this reason that Howard and Camby are great centers, but mediocre power forwards. Their offensive games simply leave little to be desired. 
Now to the top 5 comment. Personally, I only see Garnett, Amare, Duncan and Nowitzki as far superior forwards than Bosh. After that, I find that the superiority becomes less obvious if existing at all. 
Jermaine O'Neal's offensive game has become a stalemate over the past year or two, relying on alot of jumpshots and shying away from his athletecism/playing tough in the paint (probably due to past issues with injuries). I've also found that he's hardly clutch, but I've had little exposure to the Pacers so I could be wrong. However his defensive games is much better than Bosh so it's up for debate.
Carlos Boozer is another great power forward whose offensive games is quite polished, yet his defense is suspect. The debate is open once agin.
I do not put Gasol in the same light as Bosh. He's soft, hardly a leader and dissapears in games quite easily.
Randolph is great at what he does which is score points and get rebounds. However, I would not want him on my team. He's not a leader. He's a tremendous ball-hog. He's somewhat of a malcontent. His defense is awful. He is a stat-stuffer in the sense that he's hardly a winner, reminding me of one Mike James last year (who averaged 20 pts and 8 assists a game last year while doing the same as Zach). He is not the franchise player but his talent says he should be. It is slowly becoming apparent that Brandon Roy is the future first and foremost.
Finally, Bosh is NOT out of the top 10. But he is not a superstar. He is a star powerforward who can hold his own with anyone except for the select few. He can dominate/take over a game when needed and is a vocal leader of the club. He's a solid citizen and loves to involve his teamates during a game. This makes him a great player and close to the total package per say when considering power forwards (defense is his only downfall)

C) Stat stuffers. Bosh's stats are great yet do they show the complete picture? Yes and no. He is a great offensive weapon and can score points in bunches. His rebounding numbers are suspect in the sense that he's not a great rebounder, just a solid one due to his athletecism (he obviously needs to strengthen up some more). His stats really show the main thing: Bosh is a great offensive player. 
However, his numbers, though similar to Garnett's, become askewed as he is not on the same plateau as the player in all sense of the word. 
There are obvious difference in all facets of the games when comparing both players.
Bosh is not a stat-stuffer, his stats merely represent his game. However, stats aren't everything.
Bosh's stats are similar to Garnett's but Garnett is far superior.
Randolph's stats are simliar to Bosh's but Bosh is a much better player.
This argument goes both ways.

Lastly, do not depend on stats so much. Mike James was a 20/8 player last year but it's hardly representive of his game. Nestorivic once averaged 14 points a game but come'on. You can even go on the raptors and see that Calderon has had similar assist numbers as T.J. in the past three weeks but his assists are so much different than T.J. in the way they contribute to the actual game. Calderon looks to get assists while T.J's are bailouts for the most part etc.. etc...

And yes Kid Canada, cwapfan did answer your question without answering it directly. He decided to discuss the theoritical aspect of your question and comments, instead of taking stats and names and using it to build his argument.

Voila, that's it. I think that essentially sums it up.


----------



## cpawfan

JuniorNoboa said:


> Well I am certainly an advocate of players aometimes being an overrated because they put up good numbers on bad teams... the differential between great teams and awful teams is less then 10% in counting stats, so somebody will score the ball on bad teams.
> 
> That being said the Raptors have moved beyond being an awful team to an average team... and somebody has to get some accolades for taking the team to this level.


I agree that the continued maturation of Bosh as a player is helping the Raptors, but I also give credit to the mature, experienced players that management brought in. Having players that have demonstrated they can play in a team system is very useful in successfully executing a team system.

The Raptors have nice parts and they've meshed.


----------



## cpawfan

Sick, very good job hitting on the various points.

For the Top X PF discussion, one thing is that the numbers Top 5 and Top 10 got mingled with two concepts, best PF's and best Big Men. The "debates" are is Bosh a Top 10 Big Man which includes centers and is Bosh a Top 5 PF. No one has said Bosh isn't a Top 10 PF.


----------



## fruitcake

firstrounder said:


> I really can't believe more than one person is this stupid to misread my post.
> 
> TRUE OR FALSE: Looking just at points and rebounds, 23 and 11 is similar to 23 and 12.
> 
> If you say yes, then Bosh's REBOUNDING AND POINTS stats are KG-ish.
> 
> He is not, however, as good as KG, as I am not an idiot. Nor did I say he was as good as KG. I simply said his rebounding and points stats were KG-ish, because they are. *KG however, gives you 5 assists and an extra block a game, which makes him that much better than Bosh.*


Kg is also 5 times the defender Bosh is


----------



## fruitcake

seifer0406 said:


> Bosh is clearly better than Randolph, come on now. Bosh has similar stats across the board and has a higher FG%. *Not only that, Bosh's range extends all the way to the 3 point line* while his 1v1 skills inside is just as good if not better than Randolph. There isn't a big man that Bosh can't take off the dribble in the NBA, if you guys watche him this year you would know. Of course, these are the tangibles. The most obvious intangible is that Bosh is the leader of the Raptors while you can't say the same about Randolph as he has drifted in and out of that role. Of course, than there is the winning percentage of their teams. Raptors are 25-23 and a team on the rise while the Blazers are heading towards the Oden sweepstakes. If anything, Bosh's stats should be valued more since he isn't the one playing for a losing team.


You clearly haven't watched Randolph. His range is just as good as Bosh's. 

They are completely different players. Randolph is a low post machine, but can also hit the jumper. Bosh is a jump-shooting big man, who can drive. Randolph is a better rebounder, but Bosh is a slightly better defender (cause he can block a shot or two a game).

I would say they are pretty even in terms of their position and what they've done in their careers.

And statistically they are pretty even as well. They have an identical PER at 23.46 (14th in league)


----------



## HB

Good work fruitcake, you beat me to it. The guy said Bosh has range up to the 3pt line, well guess what, so does Z-Bo. He has been top 20 in PER the whole season, the guy is severely underrated on this board.

Right now Bosh has the advantage in the shooting percentage areas


----------



## firstrounder

fruitcake said:


> Kg is also 5 times the defender Bosh is


Hey thats great. But I didnt say he wasnt.

I said Bosh is putting up KG-ish #'s in terms of points and rebounds.


----------



## firstrounder

Oh and I agree that Randolph is being underrated in this thread as well. How can ANYONE knock a 20/10 guy?

While I feel that Bosh is certainly better than Randolph, Zach is really having an impressive season this year!


----------



## HB

firstrounder said:


> Oh and I agree that Randolph is being underrated in this thread as well. How can ANYONE knock a 20/10 guy?
> 
> While I feel that Bosh is certainly better than Randolph, Zach is really having an impressive season this year!


24 and 10 to be exact, and thats what is even more laughable. How many players in the league can dream of putting up 24 and 10?


----------



## fruitcake

firstrounder said:


> Hey thats great. But I didnt say he wasnt.
> 
> I said Bosh is putting up KG-ish #'s in terms of points and rebounds.


wasn't trying to knock on you or anything, just wanted to point it out to everybody cause you werent being clear.


----------



## fruitcake

bosh clearly has a better future considering randolph's issues with work ethic and off the court stuff.

but looking at this season, they aren't too far apart.


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## HB

fruitcake said:


> bosh clearly has a better future considering randolph's issues with work ethic and off the court stuff.
> 
> but looking at this season, they aren't too far apart.


There is nothing wrong with Zach's work ethic. Actually one of the most hardworking players in the league. Bosh will be better because he is much better defender and a more willing passer.


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## cpawfan

HB said:


> 24 and 10 to be exact, and thats what is even more laughable. How many players in the league can dream of putting up 24 and 10?


Lots of them could do it if they got 19+ FGA's a game. Zach doesn't get that many shots because he deserves them either. He is a black hole on offense that would rather shot against a triple team than pass out to an open man.


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## HB

cpawfan said:


> Lots of them could do it if they got 19+ FGA's a game. Zach doesn't get that many shots because he deserves them either. He is a black hole on offense that would rather shot against a triple team than pass out to an open man.


Thats not how I see it. 19 FGA for probably the best low post scorer in the game not named TD or EB isnt too bad. Now you look at the Blazers roster and realize he probably should be taking more shots. He could work on his passing game no doubt, but at least this season he has been willing to differ to Roy and Jack in certain situations. Stop evaluating players on past seasons.


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## cpawfan

firstrounder said:


> How can ANYONE knock a 20/10 guy?


Because there is nothing magical about it.


----------



## fruitcake

HB said:


> Bosh will be better because he is much better defender and a more willing passer.


I'm not sure if Bosh is a much better defender. I've seen Bosh play a lot and he does get destroyed in the post. Raps usually put nesterovic or garbajosa on the other team's best post player which is understandable, but I've seen Duncan on Bosh a couple times and Bosh was not very successful in that matchup. Bosh is a better defender because he is athletic, and can block shots. But one one one in the post, he is similar to Randolph. (Also if you look at the 82games.com--opposition production by position stats for both players, Randolph seems to play better defense--but these stats are negligble some times---Bosh gives up a PER of around 16.1, Randolph like around 15.3.

It also depends on what kind of team you are trying to build. A running team will want Bosh, a half-court team will want Randolph, one of the best low post players in the league.


----------



## HB

Lets get this clear, if you are not named TD, no other PF in this league is going to have a better impact on that Blazers squad.

And all this talk about Z-bo being a black hole on offense, he is averaging 2apg. Guess what Bosh is only averaing 2.3apg


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## ChristopherJ

cpawfan said:


> Sick, very good job hitting on the various points.
> 
> For the Top X PF discussion, one thing is that the numbers Top 5 and Top 10 got mingled with two concepts, best PF's and best Big Men. The "debates" are is Bosh a Top 10 Big Man which includes centers and is Bosh a Top 5 PF. No one has said Bosh isn't a Top 10 PF.


I guess it comes down to what you consider to be "one of the most talented big men". That probably should have been addressed at the start of this debate when you said I was overrating Bosh...

And to SickGame, Cpawfan certainly has not answered my question. I'll try my question one more time because maybe I'm not phrasing it right. What are the differences in Bosh's game that make his stats less impressive than other players with similar stats?


----------



## fruitcake

cpawfan said:


> Lots of them could do it if they got 19+ FGA's a game. Zach doesn't get that many shots because he deserves them either. He is a black hole on offense that would rather shot against a triple team than pass out to an open man.


Zach gets a lot of shots cause he is an amazing offensive rebounder. There are sequences where he would put up 3-4 field goal attempts in a span of 5 seconds. Zach also only plays 35 min a game---Portland has good big man depth.


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## HB

fruitcake said:


> Zach gets a lot of shots cause he is an amazing offensive rebounder. There are sequences where he would put up 3-4 field goal attempts in a span of 5 seconds. Zach also only plays 35 min a game---Portland has good big man depth.


Yet another good post Fruitcake.


----------



## osman

The Raptors have barely squeaked above the .500 mark, lets not get ahead of ourselves. They're a decent team, but their defense is no where near the likes of the Pistons, or Bulls.


----------



## cpawfan

HB said:


> Thats not how I see it. 19 FGA for probably the best low post scorer in the game not named TD or EB isnt too bad. Now you look at the Blazers roster and realize he probably should be taking more shots. He could work on his passing game no doubt, but at least this season he has been willing to differ to Roy and Jack in certain situations. Stop evaluating players on past seasons.


Duncan and Brand are under 15 FGA's per game so yes 19 is obscene. Zach taking double the FGA of Roy in games in obscene.

No, Zach shouldn't be shooting that much. Giving him more shots isn't going to win any more games. Rather it will obstruct the critical path for the Blazers improving as a team and that is the development of the new young guys that are the future of the team. Portland can't succeed (i.e. become a championship team) with Zach being a black hole on offense.

Additionally, your entire premise isn't consistent with other arguments that you make. You want to laud Zach for doing the same things that you criticize Joe Johnson for.


----------



## HB

cpawfan said:


> Duncan and Brand are under 15 FGA's per game so yes 19 is obscene. Zach taking double the FGA of Roy in games in obscene.
> 
> No, Zach shouldn't be shooting that much. Giving him more shots isn't going to win any more games. Rather it will obstruct the critical path for the Blazers improving as a team and that is the development of the new young guys that are the future of the team. Portland can't succeed (i.e. become a championship team) with Zach being a black hole on offense.
> 
> *Additionally, your entire premise isn't consistent with other arguments that you make. You want to laud Zach for doing the same things that you criticize Joe Johnson for.*


And what would those criticisms be

The Blazers arent going to win if he Zach takes less than 19 FGA. You think by giving the ball to guys who dont know what to do with it, will 'improve the teams outlook'. I don't know how losing is going to help the confidence of the young players on that team, at least with the few wins they are scrapping with Zach, it gives them some type of mental boost.


----------



## Knick Killer

Sir Patchwork said:


> Your idol?



*EDIT*.


----------



## cpawfan

fruitcake said:


> Zach gets a lot of shots cause he is an amazing offensive rebounder.


What is your basis for saying he is an amazing offensive rebounder? Yes he rebounds his own misses, but how many offensive rebounds is he getting from teammates misses?

His raw stats on this aren't even something you can rest your hat on as there are a sizable number of players that average between 2.5 and 3.4 Offensive RPG.


----------



## Knick Killer

Okay Zach Randolph isnt even in the same league as Chris Bosh. Chris Bosh can hit shots from anywhere...he can now even hit 3's..hes a threat in the paint and outside the paint. He is a terrific passer known for seeing what other big men usually dont see. He creats plays...for himself or a teammate. He is a great rebounder who can also swat shots. He can guard big guys or small guys. He can keep up with the all. He has excellent leadership skills and brings the Raptors together. He is the face of the Raptors. He is a Superstar.


----------



## cpawfan

HB said:


> And what would those criticisms be
> 
> The Blazers arent going to win if he Zach takes less than 19 FGA. You think by giving the ball to guys who dont know what to do with it, will 'improve the teams outlook'. I don't know how losing is going to help the confidence of the young players on that team, at least with the few wins they are scrapping with Zach, it gives them some type of mental boost.


For the criticisms, go back and review your posts comparing JJ to a certain player. Then PM me about it so we don't drag this thread further off course.

Lets go back to basics. 1) Zach is only able to contribute to the Blazers by taking shots or being a decoy on offense. 2) The Blazers record drastically improved when Roy rejoined the lineup. 3) The "must score" plays that Nate is drawing up are being run for Roy and not Zach over the last month. 4) Roy is clearly the leader of the team now.

Bottom line, Zach isn't the reason they are winning games and there are limited ways that he can be used.

Take a look at the top 15 FGA's in the NBA and then count how many of those players are on teams with winning records.


----------



## fruitcake

cpawfan said:


> Take a look at the top 15 FGA's in the NBA and then count how many of those players are on teams with winning records.


Carmelo
Iverson
Arenas
*Allen*
Bryant
James
*Johnson*
Redd
Wade
Mcgrady
*Carter*
*Randolph
Pierce*
Yao
*Garnett*

9 of the top 15 fga players are on teams with winning records.

Ray Allen's team has been decimated by injuries.

Joe Johnson's team affected by injuries as well.

Vince Carter's team...

Paul Pierce has been injured.

and then there's Randolph and Garnett.

There isn't a huge correlation between having players with high fga to losing records.


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## cpawfan

Since when do Milwaukee and Miami have winning records?

That leaves 7 out of 15 with 2 of them being pairs that are on the same team with one of them being 1 game over .500.


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## HB

cpawfan said:


> For the criticisms, go back and review your posts comparing JJ to a certain player. Then PM me about it so we don't drag this thread further off course.
> 
> Lets go back to basics. 1) Zach is only able to contribute to the Blazers by taking shots or being a decoy on offense. 2) The Blazers record drastically improved when Roy rejoined the lineup. 3) The "must score" plays that Nate is drawing up are being run for Roy and not Zach over the last month. 4) Roy is clearly the leader of the team now.
> *
> Bottom line, Zach isn't the reason they are winning games and there are limited ways that he can be used.*
> 
> Take a look at the top 15 FGA's in the NBA and then count how many of those players are on teams with winning records.


Oh you meant on the all star selection thing regarding JJ. Not really much to say on that one, he is on talented Hawks team that is still underachieving in a weak East.

So do you think the Blazers would win a single game with Zach out of the lineup. I am shocked at the comment in bold, if Zach isnt who is then? I hope for your sake you dont mention the rookie Roy


----------



## fruitcake

cpawfan said:


> Since when do Milwaukee and Miami have winning records?
> 
> That leaves 7 out of 15 with 2 of them being pairs that are on the same team with one of them being 1 game over .500.


ya meant to put them. both of those teams decimated by injuries no less.

really on randolph and KG are the two players who are top 15 in fga thats been on a relatively healthy team with a losing record

the health of the team has to be considered here as it skews this so called correlation


----------



## nitric

*If New Jersey continues to struggle, they will win the ATL div, but they won't get past the first round. You need defense to win playoff games *


----------



## cpawfan

HB said:


> So do you think the Blazers would win a single game with Zach out of the lineup. I am shocked at the comment in bold, if Zach isnt who is then? I hope for your sake you dont mention the rookie Roy


If Randolph were injured and missed multiple games, yes the Blazers would win some of those games.

Since Roy has been back in the lineup, the Blazers are playing more like a team instead of individuals which is the beauty of leadership. Additionally, during this time there was a stretch where Nate actually let Sergio play and allowed an up tempo offense that was effective. Aldridge received real playing time as well.

In December the Blazers scored 92.5 PPG with Zach scoring 24.1 PPG while in January the Blazers score 93.6 PPG with Zach scoring 21.8 PPG. Add to this that Zach actually averaged 1 more FGA per game in January than he did in December.


----------



## HB

And you saying the Blazers would win without Zach is untrue, that team just doesnt have many guys that can create for themselves. The attention Zach gets from teams helps a lot of them out.

Does Zach help Roy operate well on the court- YES

What does Roy do to help Zach on the court?


----------



## cpawfan

HB said:


> And you saying the Blazers would win without Zach is untrue, that team just doesnt have many guys that can create for themselves. The attention Zach gets from teams helps a lot of them out.
> 
> Does Zach help Roy operate well on the court- YES
> 
> What does Roy do to help Zach on the court?


I'm experiencing some serious Deja Vu. Replace Zach with Vince and Roy with Kidd and this is the same false logic. As before, you are completely off base.

The Blazers have 3 players that well above average at creating for others in Roy, Jack and Sergio and the Blazers can score points without Zach in the game. They would be able to win games.

You are completely overvaluing and overstating what "help" Zach gives Roy. Roy is the real deal. He is clutch, he makes his teammates better and he doesn't dominate the ball.

No one can help Zach on the court since he is a black hole. Single teamed or triple teamed, he is going to try to score.


----------



## Schilly

HB do you watch BLazers games?


----------



## HB

Essentially saying, without Zach on the team the Trailblazers would be in a better position. I'd love to see who on that team can make up for the 24pts and 10 rebounds Zach provides. Do you also happen to have an explantion for him being top 15 in PER and doing all that in just 35mpg


----------



## HB

Schilly said:


> HB do you watch BLazers games?


When I can yes. I love watching Sergio and Lamarcus and I thought Outlaw was having a great season before he got injured.


----------



## Schilly

Simply put right now Zach is the best player on a bad team, and as long is the best player on a team, then a team will be no more successful than Portland has been the last 2 years. Roy is quickly becoming the best player on Portland, and it's not because of Zach. If you watched many games you would see that Roy creates his own shots. Heck look at this week alone he went for 20ppg and 6.5 apg, so not only created for himself, but created for others. Roy by no means relys on Zach, Zach doesn't do anything to make Roys job easier. He gets the ball holds it for about 5-6 seconds while he decides not if, but how he's going to shoot. 

It's pretty easy IMO to say a team would be worse without it's best scorer...It's true, but to say they wouldn't win any games is misleading. If Zach went down with injury right now and missed the rest of the season I'd be willing to gurantee that they'd win at least 1 game.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

JuniorNoboa said:


> Because the Nets were playing so well when RJ and Krstic were around...... using the injury excuse is lame... we have had Bosh out for over a quarter of our games as well.


I call 49 wins 3 of 4 against Heat 2 of 4 against Pistons 1 of 2 against Mavs and win streaks of 10 and 14 when thee previous season was 42 wins a great season. Dont compare 6 injuries to of which to 2 main starters also 3 of which to our frontline which is very thin and 2 divorces to an ijury to Bosh its not even close. The Raps won a lot to last season they won the lotto. This is not a Bosh vs Randolph thread have this debate elsewhere.


----------



## cpawfan

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> This is not a Bosh vs Randolph thread have this debate elsewhere.


Nor is it a thread to make illogical rants about the Nets vs the Raptors, yet they somehow continue.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

I did not make an illogical rant. I listed facts to defewnd my team. You guys just started bashing Bosh and Randolph randomly.


----------



## Skylaars

KidCanada said:


> I guess it comes down to what you consider to be "one of the most talented big men". That probably should have been addressed at the start of this debate when you said I was overrating Bosh...
> 
> And to SickGame, Cpawfan certainly has not answered my question. I'll try my question one more time because maybe I'm not phrasing it right. *What are the differences in Bosh's game that make his stats less impressive than other players with similar stats?*


Yes cpawfan, I would like you to elaborate on this aswell, since you have so cleverly avoided answering this question.


----------



## Crossword

cpawfan said:


> That's nice, but not material to the discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> No, of course you aren't overrating him
> 
> 
> 
> You just called him a top 5 PF, so yes you are overrating him. Additionally, you aren't comprehending what I'm saying. I haven't talked down his contribution to the Raptors at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Again you are having a comprehension problem. I haven't talked about Bosh's impact on the Raptors record and it doesn't matter to this debate.
> 
> 
> 
> Randolph isn't great. He has good scoring and rebounding skills, but he isn't a complete player which is necessary to be a great player.


I'm done giving you the arguments while having you shoot them down without backing reasons. It's clear you're going to accuse me of homerism all up and down this thread, while yours happens to blind you from analyzing Bosh objectively.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Bosh is better than Randolph ok. Bosh is 21 Randolph is not case closed.


----------



## firstrounder

Actually Bosh is 22 :lol:


----------



## cpawfan

Budweiser_Boy said:


> I'm done giving you the arguments while having you shoot them down without backing reasons. It's clear you're going to accuse me of homerism all up and down this thread, while yours happens to blind you from analyzing Bosh objectively.


Nothing about "homerism" blinds my analysis. Players don't suddenly get better in my eyes if they become Nets or Nuggets.

If Tim Duncan or Jason Kidd were traded to the Raptors, my opinion of them wouldn't change just as if Bosh or Randolph were traded to the Nets I wouldn't suddenly rate them higher.


----------



## Mateo

With the way the Raptors played against the Clips, I certainly wouldn't write them off as a possible East contender. The conference has a lot of parity and no team has shown itself to be able to control their opponents to their will. But that could change after the all-star break. They have many capable outside shooters and two good passing point guards. They run the pick and roll relatively well (this could improve) and have a couple of post options. The only concern is that they could lose production in the playoffs from some of their athletes like Graham and Bargnani when defenses tighten up and they are not able to fill the holes they are currently filling. Their inexperience could be their downfall but they certain have many capable weapons. The parity of the east is their best ally.

I think their chemistry is one of the best in the conference. The Nets, their primary division rival at this point, are the opposite, with almost no chemistry.


----------



## cpawfan

KidCanada said:


> I guess it comes down to what you consider to be "one of the most talented big men". That probably should have been addressed at the start of this debate when you said I was overrating Bosh...
> 
> And to SickGame, Cpawfan certainly has not answered my question. I'll try my question one more time because maybe I'm not phrasing it right. What are the differences in Bosh's game that make his stats less impressive than other players with similar stats?


I rarely get impressed by stats. Averaging 30 points, 12 rebounds and 11 assist in a season is impressive. Averaging 50 points and 25 rebounds in a season is impressive. 

KG and TD are impressive players that happen to put up certain stats. I'm not impressed by them (or any player) because they put X PPG and Y RPG.

Which players are you wanting Bosh compared to? Defense and passing are huge reasons why Bosh isn't in TD or KG's class.


----------



## RC06

TheATLien said:


> Wow. It's like these new Rap fans breeded with the Nets posters to create 1 incredibly a new set of posters


Glad I'm not one of them...

Meh, I wouldn't call the Raps a legit contender in the East just yet, but IMO, we're following right in the footsteps of the Detroit Tigers (even though they play a totally different sport, but you get the concept). No way in hell can I see the Raps making the NBA Finals this year though but this franchise is breaking out and turning around, FAST, just like the Tigers of last year. No one saw this coming. The Raps have to get some playoff experience first, so IMO, in 2-3 years they _will_ be a legit contender in the East...

BTW, I'm loving all the love that Bosh & Co. are getting right now. Just check out the front pages of NBA.com and the NBA front page of SI.com and you'll see what I mean...

http://www.nba.com/features/player_rankings.html

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/ian_thomsen/02/06/bosh.notes/index.html

It's not too late to jump on the Raptors bandwagon...


----------



## NeoSamurai

it all matters on what they do this month with the tough competition that they'll be facing...if they can maintain their division lead or finish the month with a decent record (at least .500, a winning record would be better), then there shouldnt be any doubt as to their status as a top team in the East...


----------



## Knick Killer

All Aboard The Bandwagon!!!!


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

And when the Nets win the division stay on the Raptors band wagon.


----------



## chocolove

nitric said:


> *If New Jersey continues to struggle, they will win the ATL div, but they won't get past the first round. You need defense to win playoff games *


The Suns have won many playoff games and noone has accused them of playing good defense


----------



## MoscowHeel

I know some high school teams that would be legit contenders in the least.


----------



## osman

Chris Bosh stepping it up tonight, with 41pts 8reb 4ast.


----------



## kindred

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> And when the Nets win the division stay on the Raptors band wagon.


:lol:


----------



## JNice

osman said:


> Chris Bosh stepping it up tonight, with 41pts 8reb 4ast.


He was fantastic tonight. It didn't hurt his numbers how many times Orlando's defense completely lost him too. 

Toronto is playing great. Still not a contender, but really playing well.

Both PGs with 10+ assists. That is sick.


----------



## ChristopherJ

Every game they keep playing like this the more I think this thread is justified.


----------



## ChristopherJ

JNice said:


> He was fantastic tonight. It didn't hurt his numbers how many times Orlando's defense completely lost him too.
> 
> Toronto is playing great. Still not a contender, but really playing well.
> 
> Both PGs with 10+ assists. That is sick.


Other than Miami and maybe Detroit, I can see the Raptors handling any team in a 7 game series(in the East). They're far too deep, and far too talented to bow out easily to anyone.

Just my IMO.


----------



## JNice

KidCanada said:


> Other than Miami and maybe Detroit, I can see the Raptors handling any team in a 7 game series(in the East). They're far too deep, and far too talented to bow out easily to anyone.
> 
> Just my IMO.


Of course, because you are a huge Raptors fan.

I thought the same thing earlier this year when Orlando was completely healthy and everything was running good.

I'm sure they won't bow out easily to anyone ... but the reality is they are a new team with little experience, especially playoffs, and also very young. Realistically, the chances of them making it to the Finals are slim to none.


----------



## raptorsrule15

Yes they are, but in the East...however u can say that spots 1-10 are contenders in the East, other than Detroit!


----------



## osman

JNice said:


> Of course, because you are a huge Raptors fan.
> 
> I thought the same thing earlier this year when Orlando was completely healthy and everything was running good.
> 
> I'm sure they won't bow out easily to anyone ... but the reality is they are a new team with little experience, especially playoffs, and also very young. Realistically, the chances of them making it to the Finals are slim to none.


I concur, the Raptors are no where near the Pistons and Bulls in terms of defense. We'll see of the fair in the next three games against the Lakers, Pistons, and Bulls.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Again why Miami. What makes them so ***** special.


----------



## JNice

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Again why Miami. What makes them so ***** special.


What makes Toronto so special? You realize Miami has spent much of the season injured and there is only a couple of games difference between them and Toronto. So why Toronto and not Miami?

Plus, Bosh is great, but he's no Wade. Miami has the more dominant players and a wealth more experience.


----------



## Crossword

JNice said:


> What makes Toronto so special? You realize Miami has spent much of the season injured and there is only a couple of games difference between them and Toronto. So why Toronto and not Miami?
> 
> Plus, Bosh is great, but he's no Wade. Miami has the more dominant players and a wealth more experience.


vincedunkedonzo2 is a Nets fan... you mean to say, "what makes New Jersey so special?"


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Um who said I said Toronto was special. I hate Toronto. I just dont like the idea of Miami being so good when they have done nothing. You assume to much.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

I know right maybe the Vince Dunked on Zo part will give it away.


----------



## JNice

Budweiser_Boy said:


> vincedunkedonzo2 is a Nets fan... you mean to say, "what makes New Jersey so special?"


Toronto or NJ, either one... but yeah ...


----------



## osman

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Again why Miami. What makes them so ***** special.


Miami has won 5 in a row, and plays pretty good defense. Defensive teams ususally have a better winning percentage in the playoffs, just look at the success of the Suns and Spurs in the playoffs. The Raptors have a great offfense but still need to improve defensively.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

I never said NJ is a top team. I said what makes Miami one. They lost their pg who isnt doing anything now. A fat slob who cant recover and 5 games to Wade. NJ had way worse injuries.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Winning 5 games in a row does not make you a great defensive team. Nj was 8-2 at one point before RJ had surgey. Doest that mean they were San Antonio.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

You cant just say yeah NJ same diffirence. Then your argument is not valid. NJ has a whole lot of experience and had way more injuries than Miami.


----------



## JNice

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> I never said NJ is a top team. I said what makes Miami one. They lost their pg who isnt doing anything now. A fat slob who cant recover and 5 games to Wade. NJ had way worse injuries.


lol ... that fat slob is probably still the 2nd best center in the East behind Dwight Howard. 

There is really no sense in arguing. I'll say the same thing I said last year when I told everyone that Miami was a better team than the Nets even though the Nets won a couple of games against them ... we'll see at the end of the year. All they have to do is get healthy and they are still the best team in the East ... only challenged by Detroit.


----------



## JNice

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> You cant just say yeah NJ same diffirence. Then your argument is not valid. NJ has a whole lot of experience and had way more injuries than Miami.


You're right ... they are different situations. NJ has the better trio but Toronto has a far better bench and frontcourt. NJ's frontcourt is pretty craptacular.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Comon now. You konw as well as I do RJ's injury and Kristics subpar preformance greatly impacted the Heat. Nets big 3 healthy against Heat including playoffs
4-0
Injured
0-5
Bosh Parker Resterovich is only marginally better than Kristic RJ Collins.
That fat slob has done nothing to prove he is a top 2 center except gain weigt,


----------



## JNice

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Comon now. You konw as well as I do RJ's injury and Kristics subpar preformance greatly impacted the Heat. Nets big 3 healthy against Heat including playoffs
> 4-0
> Injured
> 0-5
> Bosh Parker Resterovich is only marginally better than Kristic RJ Collins.
> That fat slob has done nothing to prove he is a top 2 center except gain weigt,


All excellent points. And by excellent I mean not very good.

But alas ... again, we'll see who is there at the end of the year. My guess is Miami at least goes to the EC finals while neither NJ or Toronto sniff the 2nd round.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

We will see but my guess is a 2nd round exit for NJ. Same for Miami. Toronto is a no show.


----------



## Adam

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> We will see but my guess is a 2nd round exit for NJ. Same for Miami. Toronto is a no show.


This sounds more like wishful thinking.



In 2005, there were two teams in the Eastern Conference: Miami and Detroit.

In 2006, there were two teams in the Eastern Conference: Miami and Detroit.

In 2007, there...

Nets fans on this forum say that they're better than Miami every year but too bad that the playoff record is contradicting. I remember last year in the regular season game threads telling the Nets fans that Miami vs. Detroit was a foregone conclusion and that there were only two good teams in the East. They mocked me and said that there was 1 good team in the East and that New Jersey would beat Miami in the playoffs. Anyway, what's my point? Quality and athletic, talented bigs win playoff games. Fadeaway jumpshooting wing players go fishing. It's a fact of life.


----------



## arhie

Carter didn't real fadeaway. But none of the less they didn't have any quality athletic or talented bigs. They could have won 4-1 if the nets didn't fold under pressure.


----------



## arhie

I could see the Raptors beat any team in the eastern conference in the seven game series except for Miami, and New Jersey. Against Jersey they have a shot, it will depend on Vince. Against Miami they will lose in 6 games.


----------



## underhill_101

arhie said:


> I could see the Raptors beat any team in the eastern conference in the seven game series except for Miami, and New Jersey. Against Jersey they have a shot, it will depend on Vince. Against Miami they will lose in 6 games.


Please tell your are kidding with the Jersey reference? I got a pretty good kick out of it. Jersey is a sinking ship.


----------



## dwade3

you know its gonna be Miami V Detroit in the ECF if they dont meet in the second round......silly Nets fans still fantasising, the way their going, their gonna be lucky to get the 8th and final playoff spot....Toronto on the other hand, wow havent they been a surprise, they wont beat miami or detroit, but any other team in the east they can match up with quite easily...dark horse for the east...


----------



## JuniorNoboa

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> I never said NJ is a top team. I said what makes Miami one. They lost their pg who isnt doing anything now. A fat slob who cant recover and 5 games to Wade. NJ had way worse injuries.


How many injuries have the two NJ All-Stars had.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

Toronto can upset a top tier team in the first round (I would say they have about a 20-30% chance (numbers pulled out of my butt) in any one seven game series against a Miami, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Washighinton (maybe 30-40% against Cle and Wash). They can pull off one upset, but the odds are against them in every series... not a serious threat for the ECF... it's possible but were talking less then 10%.


----------



## seifer0406

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Hey Im 13 I dont appreciate this you ageists.


Why are you guys even arguing with this dude? When is the last time any of you talked basketball with a middle school student?


----------



## firstrounder

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> We will see but my guess is a 2nd round exit for NJ. Same for Miami. Toronto is a no show.


So Toronto won't make the playoffs, meanwhile NJ will, and will win a series?

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA! :lol:

Did you also bang Scarlett Johansson in this dream?


----------



## RSP83

Toronto is still a very young team despite a lot of nice talents they have. Their success will depend on Chris Bosh and Andrea Bargnani. Especially Bargnani. Bosh is a nice talent. But, I don't think he's going to be a Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett level star. I think he's going to be a Jermaine O'Neal level star. A star who can help his team make the playoff but not good enough to carry the team by himself without another star to win the championship.

If Bargnani develops into the player many scouts believe he can become. Than yes, one day the Raptors are going to be a contender. With Bosh-Bargnani they're going to have a lethal inside-outside combo. I don't think some of the players they have now are still going to be there when Bosh-Bargnani start making some noise. But they really have nice building blocks in Bosh and Bargnani. Definitely a team to watch in the future.


----------



## flushingflash

RSP83 said:


> Toronto is still a very young team despite a lot of nice talents they have. Their success will depend on Chris Bosh and Andrea Bargnani. Especially Bargnani. Bosh is a nice talent. But, I don't think he's going to be a Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett level star. I think he's going to be a Jermaine O'Neal level star. A star who can help his team make the playoff but not good enough to carry the team by himself without another star to win the championship.
> 
> If Bargnani develops into the player many scouts believe he can become. Than yes, one day the Raptors are going to be a contender. With Bosh-Bargnani they're going to have a lethal inside-outside combo. I don't think some of the players they have now are still going to be there when Bosh-Bargnani start making some noise. But they really have nice building blocks in Bosh and Bargnani. Definitely a team to watch in the future.



i think bosh can be that type of guy, because he has a couple of things in common with those players, hes a leader and he has a strong mentality. guys that can help teams but not do it by themselves are playerslike oneal(already mentioned), vince carter, shawn marion, yao ming etc... bosh has the mental goods. im telling you right know that he is the real deal.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Yeah with RJ back NJ can beat whoever is in the 5th spot it will probably be Indiana or something easy win. Adam why dont you check he Nets board and find where the Nets fans have said they are better than Miami. I repeat again NJ's backourt is producing their frontcourt is THIN. And their 2 starters are injured. 
Nets injuries this season
Williams-hand injury missed no time
House- knee injury missed a few months
Boone- shoulder injury missed a few months
Cliffy- knee injury missed a few months
RJ- 3 ankle injuries plauged him through the seaso and made him miss time.
Kristic-season surgey out for season
Collins- constant knee injuries missed a few games
7 players not to mention 5 to our weak front court plus two divorces to our "stars"
Record against Miami
Big 4 healthy (including playoffs)
4-0
Injured
0-6
Now here is for the Nets were not playing well before injuries. There was no time before injuries. They started in the off season. Also here is another interesting fact the Nets have had bad first quarter of the season starts since the Kidd era.
And what gives Miami the right to be a grat team. Miami's injuries
Jason Williams-few months (he isnt producing anyway)
Shaq- a month less than half the year. If the fat slob worked hard he could have been back by December.
Dwayne Wade- 5 games missed. OMG


----------



## RSP83

flushingflash said:


> i think bosh can be that type of guy, because he has a couple of things in common with those players, hes a leader and he has a strong mentality. guys that can help teams but not do it by themselves are playerslike oneal(already mentioned), vince carter, shawn marion, yao ming etc... bosh has the mental goods. im telling you right know that he is the real deal.


I'm not disagreeing with you about Bosh leadership, strong mentality, and also I have to mention his great attitude. But, Elton Brand was the same. Brand is a leader, strong mentality, great attitude, hard working guy. Despite those he's still not considered in the same class as Duncan/Garnet/Nowitzky. Duncan/Garnett/Nowitzky all have something extra that I still haven't seen in Brand or Bosh. The only young big I see who's the closest to the big three is Amare Stoudemire. Now, I'm not a big fan of Amare, but despite playing with an amazing PG Steve Nash I still have to give Amare his credit. Amare got "it". But Bosh is young, so I'm not going to make bold conclusion yet. It took Nowitzky 4 years to become the monster he is today.


----------



## BG7

dwade3 said:


> you know its gonna be Miami V Detroit in the ECF if they dont meet in the second round......silly Nets fans still fantasising, the way their going, their gonna be lucky to get the 8th and final playoff spot....Toronto on the other hand, wow havent they been a surprise, they wont beat miami or detroit, but any other team in the east they can match up with quite easily...dark horse for the east...


Its basically going to crack with the 4 title contenders we were all thinking at the beginning of the year, Miami, Cleveland, Detroit, and Chicago. I'd be shocked if one of those teams wasn't in the finals.

And heck, Nets aren't even going to be in the playoffs, no use arguing with their fans over whether they can beat you in a playoff series or not.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

The Nets are making the playoffs and if they meet you say goodbye baby bulls. MIAMI has no better chance of anyone else in the East. I just cant wait till play off time. Nets Bulls please we match up awesome with them.


----------



## firstrounder

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Yeah with RJ back NJ can beat whoever is in the 5th spot it will probably be Indiana or something easy win. Adam why dont you check he Nets board and find where the Nets fans have said they are better than Miami. I repeat again NJ's backourt is producing their frontcourt is THIN. And their 2 starters are injured.
> 
> And what gives Miami the right to be a grat team. Miami's injuries
> Jason Williams-few months (he isnt producing anyway)
> Shaq- a month less than half the year. If the fat slob worked hard he could have been back by December.
> Dwayne Wade- 5 games missed. OMG


Dude you are on crack, and a laughingstock on this forum.

Wake up out of your dreamworld. NJ isnt going ANYWHERE!


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Why because I think NJ can make the playoffs then I guess a lot of people are on crack. Youu are unknown on this forum. Still angry Shaq would rather eat patato chips thenplay int the NBA.


----------



## ss03

Anyone watch PTI today, with Barkley saying SO FAR he'd make Sam Mitchell COY? Well, if it wasn't for the eating contest comment. He may just have been pushing it a little though. I think BC would have to get EOY before Mitchell could get COY.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Yeah right Mitchel had little to do with the Raps. My vote goes to Mike Dantoni.


----------



## Skylaars

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Yeah right Mitchel had little to do with the Raps. My vote goes to Mike Dantoni.


Mitchell has little to do with raptors success? Apparently players coach themselves.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

The players are way more important than the coach. If your talking about GM of the year then Yeah Ill give it ti the Raps.


----------



## firstrounder

You are freaking hilarious, I'm pi$sing myself reading your posts.

In your dreamworld, the Nets will win the Atlantic, and roll over whoever they meet in the first round. Not only that they will make short work of Chicago? And Miami? And Toronto won't make the playoffs?

Put down the crack pipe and check into rehab man. ASAP.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Man Im obliged to ask which team you like so I can make a sarcastic come back. Benchwarmer.


----------



## Ras

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Man Im obliged to ask which team you like so I can make a sarcastic come back. Benchwarmer.


Why do you need to make any sort of personal come-back towards his team?

Why also do you have to insult him by calling him a 'benchwarmer,' which is a pretty weird way to insult someone considering it's just a site label according to posts?


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Because he is making personal attacks at me. He said I was on crack and being very rude to me. Why dont you read his posts all I said was benchwarmer and Im the one with thee problem. And when I was a benchwarmer I got plenty of those reamarks.


----------



## Phenom Z28

Toronto could be next year if they play their cards right in the off season...This year if they manage to make the playoffs they'll likely be swept in the first round. Two years from now I think they could be top 3 in the east if they keep up this momentum.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

They better get a backup pg in the draft. That could really help them.


----------



## adhir1

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> They better get a backup pg in the draft. That could really help them.


Tell me ur not talking about the Raptors needing a back up pg.you like ur team fine...but dont make dumbfounded remarks like the raptors needing a backup PG. When Jose calderon the raptors back up PG, is avging 13/9 in the last 5 games, while TJ Ford has been out. and could prolly start on 50% percent of the teams in the league. and is being touted, around the whole board and NBA as the best backup PG in the league, ur just making ur self look foolish, like you know nothing about the league, and ur whole world revolves around the Nets. Come on now, i dont think your that clueless.

ps. learn how to spell overRated...if your going to put it in ur sig, atleast get it right.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Sorry I meant sg. God my whole world does not revolve around the Nets. I never say the Nets will win it all. Some posters here riduclously overate nets player. One exapmle Boone fan now he is obsessed. I spell overated my own way its like my sggi thing.


----------



## adhir1

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Sorry I meant sg. God my whole world does not revolve around the Nets. I never say the Nets will win it all. Some posters here riduclously overate nets player. One exapmle Boone fan now he is obsessed. I spell overated my own way its like my sggi thing.


dont lie...u meant PG...the Raptors arent even in need of a backup SG...they have a glut of wign players all that dont cut it


----------



## Mateo

Raptors have really good chemistry. They always cut at the right time and have good passers at most positions. Having guys like Anthony Parker and Jorge Garbajosa, while neither light up the scoreboard, but have experience with knowing how plays are run, really makes the game run smoother. I think the coach has to be have a large role when there is great chemistry. If they won games by playing ISO all the time, then I might think the coach isn't really involved.

I like that Bargnani is a dunker. That's one thing that I think holds Okur back, why he'll always be what he is right now. He almost exclusively shoots jumpers (except the occasional post up), while Bargnani splits jump shots with drives to the basket, and he likes to throw it down hard. That diversity is what makes him a dangerous player already, and why he should be very successful in the association.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

No I meant sg. I type really fast and carelessly ask anyone. I hate speeling and grammer. I only care about it in English where i got an A. What do you mean they are starting Parker.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Bargani needs to rebound before he is the new Dirk. You cant stop working hard after your rookie year. Look at Collins every year after his first his stats are worse and he is starting.


----------



## Marshall_42

Bargnani is doing just fine, every part of his game is getting better every month. We have Mo Pete as our backup SG so we're good their too..Just worry about your pathetic Nets who need help every where


----------



## LuckyAC

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> I hate speeling and grammer.


Who could have dreamed it?

I have definitely been pleasantly surprised by Bosh. I was worried he was turning into SAR, but he's proving a difference-maker.


----------



## Dathomieyouhate

these next 4 games against the lakers, pistons bulls and nets will show us if the raptors have what it takes.


----------



## ChristopherJ

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> They better get a backup pg in the draft. That could really help them.


You have absolutely zero idea what you're talking about. Yikes.


----------



## ChristopherJ

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Sorry I meant sg. God my whole world does not revolve around the Nets. I never say the Nets will win it all. Some posters here riduclously overate nets player. One exapmle Boone fan now he is obsessed. I spell overated my own way its like my sggi thing.


Wrong again.

This the reason I think the Raps can make a run, they're literally deep at every position. Maybe you're just a microcosm of other peoples ignorance towards the Raptors. I wouldn't be surprised if others don't really know who Calderon or Parker are either.


----------



## Adam

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Yeah with RJ back NJ can beat whoever is in the 5th spot it will probably be Indiana or something easy win. Adam why dont you check he Nets board and find where the Nets fans have said they are better than Miami. I repeat again NJ's backourt is producing their frontcourt is THIN. And their 2 starters are injured.
> Nets injuries this season
> Williams-hand injury missed no time
> House- knee injury missed a few months
> Boone- shoulder injury missed a few months
> Cliffy- knee injury missed a few months
> RJ- 3 ankle injuries plauged him through the seaso and made him miss time.
> Kristic-season surgey out for season
> Collins- constant knee injuries missed a few games
> 7 players not to mention 5 to our weak front court plus two divorces to our "stars"
> Record against Miami
> Big 4 healthy (including playoffs)
> 4-0
> Injured
> 0-6
> Now here is for the Nets were not playing well before injuries. There was no time before injuries. They started in the off season. Also here is another interesting fact the Nets have had bad first quarter of the season starts since the Kidd era.
> And what gives Miami the right to be a grat team. Miami's injuries
> Jason Williams-few months (he isnt producing anyway)
> Shaq- a month less than half the year. If the fat slob worked hard he could have been back by December.
> Dwayne Wade- 5 games missed. OMG


Who cares? You are making disparaging remarks about Miami, Toronto, and Chicago in nearly all of your posts while praising the Nets. Nearly all of your comments are fueled by bias so I'm just going to venture a guess that you're 12-14. Am I right? It's not uncommon for an immature kid to be blindly loyal to his team to the point that it distorts his view of reality. Hell, I hated Jordan, so you hating the Heat is nothing surprising to me.

Please don't bother posting in a thread just to say, "Miami is first round out," or "New Jersey will easily beat the Bulls in the playoffs." That's nothing but wishful thinking. Nobody wants to hear it when your team hasn't advanced past the Conference Semis in 3 years. Nobody wants to hear you call Shaq a fat slob because everyone who is willingly objective knows that he is still the 2nd best center in the league. You wouldn't know anything about good centers anyway because the team you obsess over gives major minutes to guys like John Thomas in the playoffs. The playoffs! John Thomas:lol: 

Your little statistic about being 4-0 when playing Miami with no injuries is phony as well. It proves your bias. New Jersey has lost 8 games to Miami with no injuries to any of the "Big 4." Two years ago they lost by an average of around 14 pts a game and got swept and Shaq the runner up MVP hardly had to play over 30 mins a game. Last year RJ was hurt not injured. Big deal. He played major minutes and was fine, so you can just put your false statistic to bed.


----------



## Skylaars

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> *No I meant sg*. I type really fast and carelessly ask anyone. I hate speeling and grammer. I only care about it in English where i got an A. What do you mean they are starting Parker.


Either way, your wrong.


----------



## underhill_101

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> No I meant sg. I type really fast and carelessly ask anyone. I hate speeling and grammer. I only care about it in English where i got an A. What do you mean they are starting Parker.


That's funny because S and P are on opposite sides of the keyboard.


----------



## SickGame

I'm usually very calm in my posts and attempt to explain my points but not this time.
Straight up.
The Nets suck.
Like, they're really not a good team...at all. Even if Kristic and RJ were healthy, they still wouldn't make it to the conference finals. They don't have a bench. Marcus Williams is really raw. Hassan Adam is going to be a journeyman in the league. Cliff Robinson...well is Cliff Robinson. Collins is atrocious and has publically voiced in a sports illustrated column that he's stopped trying to block players (check the issue that had Peyton on the cover before the superbowl). Boone wasn't even that good in college with UConn. Eddie House is a volume shooter without a great shooting perecentage. RJ is always injured and still has a weak jumpshot. Carter is up and down, and tends to fold it at times but the best player on the team for obvious reasons. Kidd is a great pointguard, yet he can't take over games offensively à la Nash as his jumpshot leaves little to be desired. Kidd, RJ and Carter is a great trio of guards but not strong enough mentally and defensively to carry a team into the finals, ever.
That's that, face it, New Jersey's time is over and will be in a rebuilding mode in two years once Carter leaves and Kidd's age catches up to him.
Miami is still the class of the East even if they are struggling as they have the most INFLUENTIAL center(in the sense that he completely changes the way opposing defenses and offenses play when he's on the court) and a great clutch player in Wade whose never shy to take over games. Their bench is deep though rustic.
Detroit looks much better with Webber and can turn it up anytime/shut down teams with their strong defense. Billups is a great well rounded point guard and the team plays with great chemisty and discipline.
Washington will fade as the season progresses in my opinion because their defense is lackluster. However, their trio of Arenas, Butler and Jamison is great and can carry them deep into the playoffs. Yes, they are more effective that New Jersey's trio.
Chicago is a scrappy team that can do alot of noise in the playoffs with a couple of their players heat up and find consistency with their jumpshot. Their defense will take them as far as they go.
Clevland is a weak squad in my opinion. Their offense is atrocious beyond Lebron. Their defense is subpar but not dominant enough to carry them deep. If Hughes and Gooden really up, only then will they have a chance (how big of a bust are those two free agent signings?)
Finally, Toronto. They're a good squad and as hot as anyone right now. They have depth. The team has two solid point guards that change the pace of the game at their will. They have great chemistry. They have an up and coming superstar in Bosh. 
However, they're still too young and inexperienced come playoff time. The team's defense is lackluster as well, though improving. They should make it past the first round and then will need great play from the whole team, solid defense and a little luck in order to continue. 
So there it is, easily explained. I stated obvious points. Shouldn't be too difficult to figure out.
On and vincedunkedonzo, it's okay to be in love with your team, but you really need to build logical arguments when slandering other teams. Don't take this post as an example because I got far too lazy but man....you're wack.


----------



## HB

I wonder how many Nets games Sickgame has watched to reach his conclusion


----------



## JoeOtter15

Air Fly said:


> After the beatdown they gave the NETS, I'd say they're one swingman away from being a _real_ contender.


tmac would be a nice fit :biggrin:


----------



## JoeOtter15

wow this thread is about the raptors and now it turned inot a thread about the nets.

goddamn some nets fans piss me off, and i am a nets fan.

as for the raptors, they are a solid team and have a good core, but this years not their year. in a few years, then yea, we can talk about this.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> They better get a backup pg in the draft. That could really help them.


Yep, Jose Calderon sucks. Marcus Williams is the next Kidd, except better because he will shoot like Steve Nash, and have the strength of Dino Bravo.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Bargani needs to rebound before he is the new Dirk. You cant stop working hard after your rookie year. Look at Collins every year after his first his stats are worse and he is starting.


Well at least your right about the hideous rebounding of AB... you got something right.


----------



## SickGame

HB said:


> I wonder how many Nets games Sickgame has watched to reach his conclusion


I've seen close to 20 in the past two seasons. Not an extreme amount but I feel that what I said was essentially stating the obvious, outside the rash comment about how the Nets suck/aren't a good team which is essentially a biased opinion.
Not really sure where I was off point when I discussed each player.


----------



## HB

SickGame said:


> I've seen close to 20 in the past two seasons. Not an extreme amount but I feel that what I said was essentially stating the obvious, outside the rash comment about how the Nets suck/aren't a good team which is essentially a biased opinion.
> Not really sure where I was off point when I discussed each player.


Because this bench is probably the best the Nets have had in a few years. The real problem with the team is the inconsistent play of the starters.


----------



## RC06

The Raptors win yet again tonight against the Lakers. Make that 5 straight wins for the Raps.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

It seems pretty obvious to me that the Raps have grown into one of the better teams out east. There are better teams, I guess, but are they much better?

We'll start finding out tomorrow as the Raps face off against the "best" team in the east, the Pistons.


----------



## Phenom Z28

JuniorNoboa said:


> Yep, Jose Calderon sucks. Marcus Williams is the next Kidd, except better because he will shoot like Steve Nash, and have the strength of Dino Bravo.


+1 for the acknowledgement of an extremely random dead person.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

No the real problems are the injuries of half our team. Our stars have had divorces maybe that has a little bit to do with incosistent play. This thread had nothing to do with the Nets until people started mentoining the Nets. You can thank the Rap fans for that.


----------



## Phenom Z28

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> No the real problems are the injuries of half our team. Our stars have had divorces maybe that has a little bit to do with incosistent play. This thread had nothing to do with the Nets until people started mentoining the Nets. You can thank the Rap fans for that.


Dude...people of this board have been doing that since as long as I've been here. Any time their poor little brains with huge opinions can't think of a valid counterarguement they just say something about the Nets. Get used to it...


----------



## SickGame

To stay on topic, the Raptors just won against the Lakers and are one step closer to being contenders.
14 out of 18.
5 games over .500.
Meow.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

I hope you like your little strech cause you have only mentoined it in every forum of this thread. Still only 3.5 games ahead. If you beat the Spurs an important division game matchup will occur with us.


----------



## AIFAN3

SickGame said:


> To stay on topic, the Raptors just won against the Lakers and are one step closer to being *contenders*.
> 14 out of 18.
> 5 games over .500.
> Meow.


Please say more ridculous things so I can laugh some more :clap2:

Posters writing off teams in february still haven't learned their lessons from last year.. I for one know many of you this time last year believed the Heat would not make (much less win) the Finals.. So I say ,let the season play out.. Teams get hot (raptors) and teams go through rough stretches.. 

I for one will book mark this thread for some of the bold predictions i've seen in here and bring it back up at the end of the year..


----------



## kg_mvp03-04

AIFAN3 said:


> Please say more ridculous things so I can laugh some more :clap2:
> 
> Posters writing off teams in february still haven't learned their lessons from last year.. I for one know many of you this time last year believed the Heat would not make (much less win) the Finals.. So I say ,let the season play out.. Teams get hot (raptors) and teams go through rough stretches..
> 
> I for one will book mark this thread for some of the bold predictions i've seen in here and bring it back up at the end of the year..


what did he say that will make you laugh more?? he never said that the Raptors were contenders he said they are one step closer to being one which they are. you dont win 14 of 18 if you are not good team. We are NOT contenders this year but we will be sooner than everbody thinks.


----------



## Crossword

HB said:


> Because this bench is probably the best the Nets have had in a few years. The real problem with the team is the inconsistent play of the starters.


It may be their best bench in a while, but it's still not deep.


----------



## Crossword

Phenom Z28 said:


> Dude...people of this board have been doing that since as long as I've been here. Any time their poor little brains with huge opinions can't think of a valid counterarguement they just say something about the Nets. Get used to it...


lol @ acting like vcdunkedonzo is the innocent party here. You might want to check up on some of his posts in the Raptors board.


----------



## Jizzy

Phenom Z28 said:


> Dude...people of this board have been doing that since as long as I've been here. Any time their poor little brains with huge opinions can't think of a valid counterarguement they just say something about the Nets. Get used to it...



So true.


----------



## HB

Budweiser_Boy said:


> It may be their best bench in a while, but it's still not deep.


If they had this same bench last year, they could have gone to ECF


----------



## SickGame

AIFAN3 said:


> Please say more ridculous things so I can laugh some more :clap2:
> 
> Posters writing off teams in february still haven't learned their lessons from last year.. I for one know many of you this time last year believed the Heat would not make (much less win) the Finals.. So I say ,let the season play out.. Teams get hot (raptors) and teams go through rough stretches..
> 
> I for one will book mark this thread for some of the bold predictions i've seen in here and bring it back up at the end of the year..


LEARN TO *READ*
Notice the "*One Step Closer*"
What does that mean?
Well that means that they are *NOT* a contender. They are simply *one step closer *to being one, much like any team going on a win streak. It's a commonly used term. 
"They are one step closer to making the playoffs"
"They are one step closer to winning the series"
Therefore if they go on a 5 game losing streak, they are "One Step FURTHER"
I've never ever said they are contenders. I said they have a chance to be due to their recent play; *A play that would need to continue for the rest of the season (unlikely). *
They are not a top team in the East but they are ONE STEP CLOSER as they are now only 4 1/2 games behind Detroit.
I've never said they are a better team than Detroit or Chicago. I've said that their play of late alongside their favourable schedule gives them a little chance that they could catch up to these teams.
I hope that's clearn enough for you. Learn how to understand my words before jumping the gun like a fifteen year old boy. Analyze them. Think about it. Then give me a response. 
"Ridiculous"...some people.


----------



## SickGame

HB said:


> If they had this same bench last year, they could have gone to ECF


I can agree with that.
Though I still find it unlikely that they would've made it past The Heat.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Yes their bench really sucked last year. And once again 4-0 with big 4 healthy 0-5 without em healthy against Miami.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Budweiser_Boy said:


> lol @ acting like vcdunkedonzo is the innocent party here. You might want to check up on some of his posts in the Raptors board.


I dont say things about the Raps until they say things about theNets.


----------



## firstrounder

vincedunkedonzo2, I think I speak for the majority when I say SHUT THE **** UP!


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

firstrounder said:


> vincedunkedonzo2, I think I speak for the majority when I say SHUT THE **** UP!


Amazing comeback.


----------



## reHEATed

why do people talk about the Nets?

look at the first 5 or so pages of this thread, and see who dominated the conversation.....


----------



## Jizzy

Guys, pay no attention to vincedunkedonzo.


----------



## Jizzy

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Because once again the Raps fans couldnt think of counter arguments so they started attacking the Nets.



How old are you?


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Because once again the Raps fans couldnt think of counter arguments so they started attacking the Nets.


----------



## reHEATed

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Because once again the Raps fans couldnt think of counter arguments so they started attacking the Nets.



na, the first couple pages of this thread were Nets fans with the raps wont win the Atlantic talk...so that implicitly brought the Nets into the conversation....take a look for yourself at the first part of this thread


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

13 pay no attention to Jizzy. Jizzy you can go suck your Jizzy somewhere else.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

No because people brought up they like the Heat to win the East. Then I said no way in Hell thats happening so then they attacked the Nets.


----------



## Jizzy

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> No because people brought up they like the Heat to win the East. Then I said no way in Hell thats happening so then they attacked the Nets.



Your immaturity is showing.


----------



## SickGame

Jizzy said:


> Your immaturity is showing.


No way!
Shocking.

I'm sad to see that this thread got killed after being interesting for the first dozen pages.


----------



## mysterio

Earlier in the season, it was a "given" that the Nets were better than the Raptors... Then when this thread began people started to finally recognize the Raptors as possibly the premier team in the Atlantic division, but it was a "given" that the Bulls were better, even *some* Raptors fans admitted it... but as of today: Raptors 56% (30W-24L) and Bulls 53% (29W-26L). I'm not going to say we're better than the Bulls or anything like that, but just want to say that now nobody in the East can legitimately claim their team can easily beat the Raptors in a series.

Okay, I'm gloating, but can't help it. As of Bosh's return we're 73% 16-6. Considering the last 22 games, the Raptors have the best record in the East. It's about damn time.

<marquee>:yay: :clap: :yay: :clap: :yay: </marquee>


----------



## mjm1

mysterio said:


> Earlier in the season, it was a "given" that the Nets were better than the Raptors... Then when this thread began people started to finally recognize the Raptors as possibly the premier team in the Atlantic division, but it was a "given" that the Bulls were better, even *some* Raptors fans admitted it... but as of today: Raptors 56% (30W-24L) and Bulls 53% (29W-26L). I'm not going to say we're better than the Bulls or anything like that, but just want to say that now nobody in the East can legitimately claim their team can easily beat the Raptors in a series.
> 
> Okay, I'm gloating, but can't help it. As of Bosh's return we're 73% 16-6. Considering the last 22 games, the Raptors have the best record in the East. It's about damn time.
> 
> <marquee>:yay: :clap: :yay: :clap: :yay: </marquee>


I wont argue, the Raptors are Better than the nets are...without Kidd, Krstic, and Jefferson. That is undeniable.


----------



## mysterio

mjm1 said:


> I wont argue, the Raptors are Better than the nets are...without Kidd, Krstic, and Jefferson. That is undeniable.


http://www.nba.com/games/20061215/NJNTOR/boxscore.html

Nets can't seem to beat the Raptors in Toronto and Raptors can't seem to beat the Nets in NJ.


----------



## Mateo

Bargnani's rebounding makes Eddy Curry look like Dennis Rodman. 31 minutes, *0* rebounds.


----------



## f22egl

New Jersey might not make the playoffs this year. Any chance they unload one of their big 3 before the trading deadline?


----------



## f22egl

mysterio said:


> http://www.nba.com/games/20061215/NJNTOR/boxscore.html
> 
> Nets can't seem to beat the Raptors in Toronto and Raptors can't seem to beat the Nets in NJ.


Wow!!! The Nets not win when the Raptors didn't have Bosh.


----------



## Crossword

With the Raptors win and Bulls loss tonight, the Raptors now have homecourt in the east, half a game up on the Bulls.


----------



## speedythief

Say what you will about the Raps, they are just going to keep playing hard (and winning).


----------



## hroz

Another nice win for Toronto many people might start putting them behind Pistons in the East.After all they are only 1.5 games behind 2nd, and closing fast.


----------



## Phenom Z28

hroz said:


> Another nice win for Toronto many people might start putting them behind Pistons in the East.After all they are only 1.5 games behind 2nd, and closing fast.


 I'd compare them to Indiana and Orlando right now. They're not even close to the Detroit/Cleveland plain yet but they'll be close next season.


----------



## seifer0406

I like how 5-6 Nets fans jump on the first 10 pages of this thread and then ask why did the thread derailed to discussing about Nets.

The East suck. As long as you make the playoffs, you are a contender in the East. If you look at the Raptors' schedule the rest of the way, they are likely to end up with around 45 wins. With how bad the East is this year, 45 wins might just get you homecourt advantage in the first round.


----------



## Dathomieyouhate

Mateo said:


> Bargnani's rebounding makes Eddy Curry look like Dennis Rodman. 31 minutes, *0* rebounds.



that doesn't mean he played a bad game..


----------



## firstrounder

Phenom Z28 said:


> I'd compare them to Indiana and Orlando right now. They're not even close to the Detroit/Cleveland plain yet but they'll be close next season.


Not even close to Cleveland? Whatever.


----------



## aussiestatman

IMO they are the best 7 deep side in the east, on form.
bosh, bargnani, the two points, garbajosa, peterson, and parker did almost everything in their last win, shooting 60% between them


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

They're playing really good ball going into the break.

As far as being a contender...I don't know...I'm not sure if they could beat Detroit or (a healthy) Miami in a 7 game series


----------



## Crossword

ToddMacCulloch11 said:


> They're playing really good ball going into the break.
> 
> As far as being a contender...I don't know...I'm not sure if they could beat Detroit or (a healthy) Miami in a 7 game series


Yeah, I think outside of those two teams we'll be fine, but then again beating those two teams is what would define us as a contender IMO.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

I think Toronto could beat a healthy Miami. Detroit it depends.


----------



## Crossword

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> I think Toronto could beat a healthy Miami. Detroit it depends.


If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

WTF I never did not like Toronto. I think its a good team. I think NJ is just a better team. The Raps are not the team I hate I hate their fans. The team I really hate is Miami.


----------



## mysterio

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> WTF I never did not like Toronto. I think its a good team. I think NJ is just a better team. The Raps are not the team I hate I hate their fans. The team I really hate is Miami.


Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you.


----------



## NYKFan

Nope, the knicks will catch up and take the atlantic...


----------



## madman

NYKFan said:


> Nope, the knicks will catch up and take the atlantic...


BUN THAT!!!!

I have nothing against the Knicks making the playoffs, don't get me wrong. Especially if they kick out Vince Carter. And I'll stop frontin on the Nets once Vince leaves, so don't take it personal Nets fans! So yeah, if the Knicks make it but the Raptors still win the division, I'll take that. But the Knicks aren't winning the division, point blank period. You should wake up from that pipe dream cause it's not happening this year.

WE'RE JUST TOO GOOOOOD!

Yo, we got Bosh who's like a starting all star. Nobody else in the Atlantic has a starting all star. AND THEN we have the best point guard combination in the league. Yeah, THE LEAGUE. So you can't compete with TJ Ford and Jose Calderon. And then you can't **** with our bench. We have the deepest team in the East. The Bulls have nice depth too, call it a tie.

But we run the Nets. The Nets suck. Mostly because of Vince, but they do suck.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

NYKFan said:


> Nope, the knicks will catch up and take the atlantic...


For your own sake I hope your joking.
I was not scared about the Heat last year. We beat em 3 out of 4 times. We had a great game in game 1 but ever since RJ hurt his ankle and Clify did pot we were out of that series. I dont fear the Heat. I big reason I hate them is because of all the freaking frontrunners who automaticlly jumped on the Heat bandwagon the minute they won the chip. I also cannot stand D Wade I have nothing against him its just hate way he crushed our dreams last year. I just dont like them its notsomething I can explain.


----------



## madman

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> WTF I never did not like Toronto. I think its a good team. I think NJ is just a better team. The Raps are not the team I hate I hate their fans. The team I really hate is Miami.


Ahahahaha, don't be scared. The Nets will suck in no time like the Raptors fans like me predicted. Jump on the bandwagon now. The Nets are leaving New Jersey, which is your location, anyway. They're moving. They're abandoning you. HOW DO YOU SUPPORT A TEAM THAT ABANDONS YOU?!?!?!?!

The Raptors have the best fans in the league. Raptors fans never abandon the Raptors, and the Raptors never abandon Raptors fans. Choose the team you root for wisely. Choose a team that doesn't abandon you as a fan. Choose the Raptors. But it looks like you already have. I commend you on your choice.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Um thanks for the newsflash but I dont live in NJ anymore I live in Phoniex. I dont care where the Nets move its not the location its the players. I wont be a **** frontrunner and go to the Raps when my team struggles. Nets own atalnticits in my sig. And you have to be kidding. Ford Caldeorn better than Kidd Williams Ha.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

The Raps would have moved out of Canada just like the Grizzlies if not for Carter's fan attention. The Nets are not abondoning us. Its because we dont have a high attendence rate and NY wants a real team. This is because Continenetal Airlines Arena is a Crappy arena and the Knicks are a Crappy team.


----------



## shookem

Name one other team that has left the city of Toronto in the last 70 years.


----------



## Crossword

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Um thanks for the newsflash but I dont live in NJ anymore I live in Phoniex. I dont care where the Nets move its not the location its the players. I wont be a **** frontrunner and go to the Raps when my team struggles. Nets own atalnticits in my sig. And you have to be kidding. Ford Caldeorn better than Kidd Williams Ha.


Good thing I sent you that newsflash lol. Before, your location said New Jersey. I only base my statements on facts. Also, I never stated that either Ford or Calderon is better than Kidd. Kidd is the Nets' only saving grace IMO. But the combination of the two is better than any other point guard combination in the league, and yes, that includes Kidd Williams. How's Williams led you guys? Oh yeah, we won't go there. Meanwhile Calderon has led us to wins in the starting role.


----------



## Crossword

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> The Raps would have moved out of Canada just like the Grizzlies if not for Carter's fan attention. The Nets are not abondoning us. Its because we dont have a high attendence rate and NY wants a real team. This is because Continenetal Airlines Arena is a Crappy arena and the Knicks are a Crappy team.


The Nets didn't sell out games before Vince Carter. The Raptors still sell out games after Vince Carter. And the Nets are leaving because New Jersey sucks. Toronto doesn't suck, that's why the Raptors are staying. Toronto is the 4th largest market in North America, and for that reason alone, was never in any position to move.


----------



## Knick Killer

NYKFan said:


> Nope, the knicks will catch up and take the atlantic...



Isiah Thomas = No chance buddy..


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Allright Bud boy but I wasnt even talking to you. The Nets are not leaving NJ because they suck they have just begun to taste succes. The Nets have a horrible arena. A lot of people go to gamesnot just for the game itself but for the luxuries of the arena. I mean CAA is a really Crappy arena. The main reason you sell out is because you have one arena for an entire country. The Raps fan base was created because of Vince Carter! New York is getting tired of a horrible franchise so Ratner and Jayz wanna give New Yorkers some hope.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

shookem said:


> Name one other team that has left the city of Toronto in the last 70 years.


Yes but Canada was never really involved in bball. Nash himself said it was at time difficult to find apickup game.


----------



## Crossword

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Yes but Canada was never really involved in bball. Nash himself said it was at time difficult to find apickup game.


Steve Nash isn't from Toronto.


----------



## Crossword

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> Allright Bud boy but I wasnt even talking to you. The Nets are not leaving NJ because they suck they have just begun to taste succes. The Nets have a horrible arena. A lot of people go to gamesnot just for the game itself but for the luxuries of the arena. I mean CAA is a really Crappy arena. The main reason you sell out is because you have one arena for an entire country. The Raps fan base was created because of Vince Carter! New York is getting tired of a horrible franchise so Ratner and Jayz wanna give New Yorkers some hope.


Too bad by the time the Nets get there, they'll be back to their usual suckdom.


----------



## vincedunkedonzo2

Oh and how many ECFs and chips do the Raps have? Nash is from Canada and everyone knows back then Canada was not a place where you would find basketball.


----------



## RC06

BUMP.

Oh my, a couple of months later and the Raptors have clinched the Atlantic. Where are the haters now? How times have changed...


----------



## Jizzy

No one thinks they are contenders and nobody wants to waste time arguing over this, that's why the "haters" are not here.


----------



## open mike

raptors are better than 22 teams in the nba. this makes them contenders. period.

Since January, 4th best record in the league. this makes them contenders.

two pass first pgs makes them contenders

Ford, Rasho- Playoffs every year since entering the league- this makes them contenders

Ford, Bosh and Bargnani- 24, 23, and 21- this makes them contenders

Mo Pete- AKA Mr. Clutch AKA new age Dell Curry- this makes them contenders

Anthony Parker- 5 championships and MVP in EuroLeague- this makes them contenders

Jose and Jorge- National Champions OVER US ALL NBA team- this makes them contenders


what doesnt make them contenders, jizzy? ps. what made you think that "jizzy" was a cool name?

was it young jeezy? or jim jones? or juelz bandana?


----------



## Real

Ehhh I look through this thread and I just laugh at what I said. I still believe the Raptors benefited from the Nets injuries, but that was because I thought and still believe the Nets were better than what they have shown me this season, hurt or not.

Anyway, congrats to the Toronto Raptors, they've earned it. 

Now I am sick to my stomach this morning. I'm not sure whether it's because my team horribly underwhelmed me this season, or it's because I ate too much White Castle last night, but I digress.

BTW, how the hell is there a debate between Chris Bosh and Zach Randolph as to who is the better player? I would take Chris Bosh over Randolph every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Bosh is the Atlantic MVP as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Jizzy

> raptors are better than 22 teams in the nba. this makes them contenders. period.
> 
> Since January, 4th best record in the league. this makes them contenders.
> 
> two pass first pgs makes them contenders
> 
> Ford, Rasho- Playoffs every year since entering the league- this makes them contenders
> 
> Ford, Bosh and Bargnani- 24, 23, and 21- this makes them contenders
> 
> Mo Pete- AKA Mr. Clutch AKA new age Dell Curry- this makes them contenders
> 
> Anthony Parker- 5 championships and MVP in EuroLeague- this makes them contenders
> 
> Jose and Jorge- National Champions OVER US ALL NBA team- this makes them contenders


This makes no sense at all.




> what doesnt make them contenders, jizzy? ps. what made you think that "jizzy" was a cool name?
> 
> was it young jeezy? or jim jones? or juelz bandana?


:lol:


----------



## Jizzy

Anthony Parker is still one of my fav players.


----------



## madman

vincedunkedonzo2 said:


> The main reason you sell out is because you have one arena for an entire country.


damn i never realised that all of the 32,874,962 people who lived in canada all lived in Toronto. I wonder what we do with the rest of the 9,976,140 km2



as for the raps being conteders they may win a round but if they can hold onto the 3rd seed but that is as far as i see them going


----------



## Jizzy

You have to admit, Toronto has a great crowd. I'm surpriused they don't have any ESPN or nationally televised games.


----------



## SickGame

Nothing like clinching your division.

And New Jersey was supposed to easily come back and win the division and the Raptors were supposed to fall and play mediocre ball after their "run."
Gotta admit, that was one hell of long run...three months? Marathon almost.

Bless your hearts, haters, bless your hearts.


----------



## Jizzy

Calm down, big man.


----------



## Jizzy

nitric said:


> They play in the worst division and don't play defense. I doubt it.



That puts them in title contention.


----------



## nitric

They play in the worst division and don't play defense. I doubt it.


----------



## Mr. Bold

Real said:


> Ehhh I look through this thread and I just laugh at what I said. I still believe the Raptors benefited from the Nets injuries, but that was because I thought and still believe the Nets were better than what they have shown me this season, hurt or not.
> 
> Anyway, congrats to the Toronto Raptors, they've earned it.
> 
> Now I am sick to my stomach this morning. I'm not sure whether it's because my team horribly underwhelmed me this season, or it's because I ate too much White Castle last night, but I digress.
> 
> BTW, how the hell is there a debate between Chris Bosh and Zach Randolph as to who is the better player? I would take Chris Bosh over Randolph every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Bosh is the Atlantic MVP as far as I'm concerned.


How the heck did Raps benefit from Nets's horrible season? Raps only face them 4 times a year, and it was 2-2. Lets just say Nets swept the Raps and they also won the atlantic. That would leave Raps with a 41-35 record, second in the atlantic, 6th in the playoffs. Better than the Wizards, current Nets and Magics. They would still be in playoffs which according to most of the people, they would have not made.


----------



## ChristopherJ

I'm surprised to see Jizzy rear his ugly personality into this thread after all the embarrassing comments he has made about the Raps.


----------



## Vivaldi

In my opinion, Toronto is a dark horse. I don't think they are contenders because they haven't proven jack ****, but they are a preety good team that should fair well in the playoffs baring they don't meet tough opponents in the early rounds. They have great coaching, and very good guard play. They have your given superstar, and closer. They aren't particularly deep in the bench department, but they aren't horrible either. As long as they're healthy, Toronto is a team that should not be taken lightly. They are also a very fun team to watch this year. Among my favorites in the east.


----------



## Real

Mr. Bold said:


> How the heck did Raps benefit from Nets's horrible season? Raps only face them 4 times a year, and it was 2-2. Lets just say Nets swept the Raps and they also won the atlantic. That would leave Raps with a 41-35 record, second in the atlantic, 6th in the playoffs. Better than the Wizards, current Nets and Magics. They would still be in playoffs which according to most of the people, they would have not made.


You don't think that things would have been a little more interesting if RJ and Krstic were 100 percent healthy? 

We'll never know. Raptors are the chanpions.


----------



## Jizzy

KidCanada said:


> I'm surprised to see Jizzy rear his ugly personality into this thread after all the embarrassing comments he has made about the Raps.



:lol:


----------



## Jizzy

I must admit, I like what they're doing with the Raptors. A ton of nice young pieces. Colenagelo should be GM of the year.


----------



## Dre

If you say contend, you mean contend for the playoffs or the title. They got into the playoffs, but that's it. They're not a title contender.


----------



## HB

I guess playoff experience doesnt apply in this scenario or veteran leadership for that matter

Congrats to the raps though, amazing season


----------



## ChristopherJ

Jizzy said:


> *Washington is winning the East. Detroit cannot match up with them.*





KidCanada said:


> Toronto has handled the Wizards relatively easily both times this year.





Jizzy said:


> *Toronto is not even going to make the playoffs*.



Any other bold statements you'd like to make Jizzy?


----------



## ChristopherJ

_Dre_ said:


> If you say contend, you mean contend for the playoffs or the title. They got into the playoffs, but that's it. They're not a title contender.



No, I mean contend for the east. As the thread title says.


----------



## Dre

KidCanada said:


> No, I mean contend for the east. As the thread title says.


Well that's why I said they're not a title contender, or a finals contender. 

And no cpaw, but if you say "in the east", you can still assume it means to contend for the EC playoffs or the EC title. Difference between "for" and "in" the east. :whoknows:


----------



## Ballscientist

Yes, Raptors are title contender. 

Warriors are better team than Raptors, but Raptors have 1 million times chances to win the title than Warriors.


----------



## Dre

I don't know about that. In a series I probably have the Raptors coming out.


----------



## Skylaars

I can see the raps getting outta the first round. but thats about it... just to young and inexperienced. I hope im wrong tho.


----------



## frank_white

Objectively, the Cavs, Pistons, and Bulls are all better teams than the Raptors. Yet, at the same time, the Raptors have the capacity to upset all three teams -- it's not probable, but it wouldn't be a total shock either. It`s fair to say the Raptors and Heat are darkhorses for the East title.


----------



## frank_white

KidCanada said:


> Any other bold statements you'd like to make Jizzy?


I wish I had a signature. Those quotes are gold.


----------



## Jizzy

KidCanada said:


> Any other bold statements you'd like to make Jizzy?



Bold statements. Sure, if Gilbert Arenas and Caron Butler had been healthy, they might have won the East and Washington has shown to give Detroit fits. They were reasonable picks at the time, you know, the same time the Raptors were not even in the playoffs. Let's try and keep the times straight here.


----------



## The KiBosh

I'm a raps fan but they are not contendors... mainly because the East HAS no contendors. The first round is going to be laughebly predictable (besides the 4th and 5th sead) but after that all bets are off. All teams are capable of beating eachother and IMO none of them would be upsets. So unless your calling all 5 teams contendors then you can't call the Raps one. Only team that miiiiiight have a slight edge over the others in Detroit. Miami is a good team but I wouldn't put them above everyone else. Wade being a %100 for the playoffs is still a question mark and their deluded belief that they are good enough to turn their game on and off like a light switch could come back and bite em in the ***.


----------



## cv3bandwagon

Skylaars said:


> I can see the raps getting outta the first round. but thats about it... just to young and inexperienced. I hope im wrong tho.


I actually don't think inexpereince will be that much of a problem. The raps are pretty savvy, and they play like vetrans. As well most players have been in these pressure situations befor, and are completely ready.

In my opinion if they fail it will be because their game dose not translate to the playoffs very well. They downfall might be when the defense tightens up and the ball movement might get cut down. Then they are only a two man game with Ford and Bosh who are the only two guys that can consistently go out and get their own shot. Which might be hard seeing how I expect Bosh to be doubled at all times in the playoffs.

As well they lack major athletcism on the perimter. So any wings with a first step will continuously get free trips to the line. Which is huge in the playoffs.

However I still have full confidence in my team to do well. I belive that can go out and give any team in the east a good series. I won't be a bold homer, but they'll play well no question.


----------



## AIFAN3

The Raps are not contending for the East this year.. Next year.. But not this year... One thing that the 05-06 miami heats taught me was that experience clowns talent when it comes to playoffs..


----------



## frank_white

Jizzy said:


> Bold statements. Sure, if Gilbert Arenas and Caron Butler had been healthy, they might have won the East and Washington has shown to give Detroit fits.


To be fair, you didn`t say that the Wizards would simply give the Pistons ``fits``. You flat out declared, ``Detroit cannot match up with them``, which wasn`t close to being true even two weeks ago. I haven`t seen backpeddling like this since Melo played the Gardens.


----------



## Deng101

I dont think the Raptors are really a contender to reach the finals, there are 4 teams ahead of themistons, Bulls, Cavs, and Heat.

I do think if they can keep that 3 seed and end up playing the wizards in the 6th seed they got that series in the bag, but outside of that they should lose in the 2nd round.


----------



## open mike

if im not mistaken bulls and cavs are less than THREE games ahead of the raptors.
after tonights game bulls will be like 1 and a half games ahead of raptors ... 

how does that make bulls contenders and raps not? 


ADD in that we started 2-8 (Due to 9 new players) and havea record of 16 games over .500 since then.
that puts us right ahead of chi-town. 

Granted, we lost 15 games in a row to chicago but that streak was ended since our team was revamped this offseason. Chicago lost 16 in a row to us before that so dont try that arguement either.

Playoffs are a different ball game and the top 4 teams from each conference should be considered contenders. period.


----------



## Ballscientist

Toronto is, not doubt, but ....


----------



## Chops

open mike said:


> if im not mistaken bulls and cavs are less than THREE games ahead of the raptors.
> after tonights game bulls will be like 1 and a half games ahead of raptors ...
> 
> how does that make bulls contenders and raps not?
> 
> 
> ADD in that we started 2-8 (Due to 9 new players) and havea record of 16 games over .500 since then.
> that puts us right ahead of chi-town.
> 
> Granted, we lost 15 games in a row to chicago but that streak was ended since our team was revamped this offseason. Chicago lost 16 in a row to us before that so dont try that arguement either.
> 
> Playoffs are a different ball game and the top 4 teams from each conference should be considered contenders. period.


The Bulls started 3-9.

Anyway, I think the main reason people are putting the Bulls ahead at this point is the fact that their players now have 2 years of playoff experience. The Raptors just exploded onto the scene and this will be the first playoff experience for their best player.


----------



## JNice

open mike said:


> if im not mistaken bulls and cavs are less than THREE games ahead of the raptors.
> after tonights game bulls will be like 1 and a half games ahead of raptors ...
> 
> how does that make bulls contenders and raps not?
> 
> 
> ADD in that we started 2-8 (Due to 9 new players) and havea record of 16 games over .500 since then.
> that puts us right ahead of chi-town.
> 
> Granted, we lost 15 games in a row to chicago but that streak was ended since our team was revamped this offseason. Chicago lost 16 in a row to us before that so dont try that arguement either.
> 
> Playoffs are a different ball game and the top 4 teams from each conference should be considered contenders. period.


I can understand fans defending their team but fact is rarely do teams built on as much youth and inexperience such as the Raptors perform real strongly in the playoffs. That is just the way it is. Even their coach is relatively inexperienced. It is nothing against the Raptors. Raptors are talented and really rolling but I'd still take Detroit, Chicago, a healthy Miami, and probably Cleveland over them in a series. I definitely don't think they are contenders because I don't believe they could beat Detroit or a healthy Miami to reach the Finals and therefore they are not a contender.


----------



## speedythief

Toronto handled Miami with relative ease last month but the season series suggests they would struggle in a seven-game scenario, especially without home-court advantage, if that were the case.

I don't think Toronto matches up well with the top-four in the East (IMO: Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, and Miami); it will be extremely important for them to achieve home court and face someone like Washington in the opening round.

I have confidence in the Raptors but realistically it could be a short post-season if they can't get a good first-round opponent.


----------



## speedythief

And right after I say that the Raps come out and put a beating on the Bulls, tying the season series.

Of all people I shouldn't be counting this team out.


----------



## reHEATed

they are the hottest team right now....


----------



## AllEyezonTX

wadeshaqeddie said:


> they are the hottest team right now....


not a bad time to get hot! :biggrin: If they playing this ball & healthy, why not? I'm not sold on Representing the East, but I love watching "this" Raptor team play


----------



## Skylaars

joey graham is a tank


----------



## cv3bandwagon

Skylaars said:


> joey graham is a tank


Which is why it is fustratign to watch him just flat out suck for 50 games a year. He only shows up like he did tonight about once or twice every month. 

However lately he's been finding consistency sine minutes arose with Bargnani, and Jorge's injuries.

Blowing out the Bulls tonight surely put the Raps in contention to win the east now? Dosen't it?


----------



## Crossword

nitric said:


> They play in the worst division and don't play defense. I doubt it.


Sorry come again?


----------



## mjm1

Excellent team with absolutely no postseason expierence. The biggest question...how will they handle the monumental playoff pressure?


----------



## The KiBosh

cv3bandwagon said:


> Which is why it is fustratign to watch him just flat out suck for 50 games a year. He only shows up like he did tonight about once or twice every month.


Its funny how people were so surprised with how far he fell down the draft. He was passed on by a whole wack of teams for a reason. That being said your right. Joey is definetly starting to find his groove this last little bit. He's finding that comfortable zone between his jump shot (which I am becoming increasingly comfortable with) and driving to the lane. His athletisim is really starting to show. But for such a smart kid it can be frustrating that he repeatedly shows such a low BBIQ. Oh well. You just gotta take the good Joey with the Bad I guess.



cv3bandwagon said:


> Blowing out the Bulls tonight surely put the Raps in contention to win the east now? Dosen't it?


Not sure if they are contendors still but after tonight I am DEFINETLY feeling better about a 7 game series with them. On paper they are still a better team (Chicago that is). They just don't match up well against us. Chicago is a great defensive _team._ They work really well as a unit but when they face teams with perimiter shooters at almost all positions you take the _team_ out of the defence by spreading them out. Perimiter shooters + ball movement seems to be the poisin pill for the Bulls D. Add in two speedy guards (who had an off offensive night tonight) and I think were a serious threat to Chicago. Only watch a handful of Chicago games and its just my opinion though... Any Chicago fans want to tell me if I'm anywhere close on my assesment of the Bulls?


----------



## Crossword

mjm1 said:


> Excellent team with absolutely no postseason expierence. The biggest question...how will they handle the monumental playoff pressure?


Absolutely no postseason experience? If we're talking about the TEAM here, then the Raptors have a few guys who have been to the playoffs on other teams, plus guys who played in big games overseas, so the whole pressure factor is overrated IMO. In addition, that mix of veterans and youth, and the fact that they don't rely 100% on Chris Bosh is what makes them a tough team to handle in the playoffs. Today we won the game by taking Bosh out in the 3rd quarter after we'd recaptured the lead, and forcing the Bulls into smallball. From thereon it was never really close. Obviously that's just one game, but this isn't a team that relies solely on inexperienced players.


----------



## HB

I for one hope the Raptors play the Nets in the first round


----------



## Pain5155

give us the bulls in the first round, we have their number.


----------



## JNice

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Absolutely no postseason experience? If we're talking about the TEAM here, then the Raptors have a few guys who have been to the playoffs on other teams, plus guys who played in big games overseas, so the whole pressure factor is overrated IMO. In addition, that mix of veterans and youth, and the fact that they don't rely 100% on Chris Bosh is what makes them a tough team to handle in the playoffs. Today we won the game by taking Bosh out in the 3rd quarter after we'd recaptured the lead, and forcing the Bulls into smallball. From thereon it was never really close. Obviously that's just one game, but this isn't a team that relies solely on inexperienced players.



Which of their guys have significant playoff experience other than Rasho? Not many that I see, if at all. And sure Parker has lots of experience overseas but that is a whole different ballgame. You can't discount playoff experience. Young teams just don't come into the playoffs and head straight to the Finals. It just doesn't happen.


----------



## HB

JNice said:


> Which of their guys have significant playoff experience other than Rasho? Not many that I see, if at all. And sure Parker has lots of experience overseas but that is a whole different ballgame. You can't discount playoff experience. Young teams just don't come into the playoffs and head straight to the Finals. It just doesn't happen.


Especially young teams that dont play defense


----------



## SickGame

Yes but however, this team has WINNERS (and I don't mean in high school etc..)
Rasho Nesterovic - Playoff exp. with the Spurs including a ring

Peterson - Won the NCAA title with the Spartans then played on the Raptors two 
playoff appearences during the Carter Era.

Juan Dixon - NCAA title with Maryland.

Calderon and Garbajosa - World Title with Spain in the summer.

Parker - Euroleague MVP and won 3-4 Euroleague titles I believe

Bargnani - 2 Championship seasons/titles in Italy

T.J. Ford - 3 teams (including College), takes all three teams from mediocrity to playoff apperances.

Now, yes, alot of this experience isn't your prototypical NBA playoff experience. But alot of these players are mature individuals with high basketball IQ that have consistently experienced winning and have therefore, been through the pressures and vigors that come during some type of playoff format or another. So in terms of NBA playoff experience, the team doesn't have much but, they are winners and mature playres which would explain their ability to mesh together so well and change a franchise's fortunes/position so drastically. 
Do not discount winning and its value mentally.


----------



## ATLien

I bet every team in the NBA has players that have won big games in college or over seas. 

doesn't mean squat when the playoffs come here, IMO. You can throw all that out the window.


----------



## Crossword

HB said:


> Especially young teams that dont play defense


Biggest misconception in the NBA right now.


----------



## HB

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Biggest misconception in the NBA right now.


Really? I could swear the Raps are more concerned about throwing up quick shots rather than making stops


----------



## ChristopherJ

HB said:


> Really? I could swear the Raps are *more concerned about throwing up quick shots* rather than making stops


What does that mean?


----------



## HB

It means they are more concerned about outscoring their opponents to be bothered about being a defensive outfit. The Raptors do not play D, that is no misconception. Mitchell has said it countless times that he wants about 100 or so shots a game. Its just not possible to play good d by throwing up that many shots a game


----------



## SickGame

I guess what he's saying is that the Raptors won't be 100% focused on defense as they're always half ready for rushing down the floor and get a quick basket.....which is retarded since the Raptors usually work with what they have and can be found, half the time, to making 5-6 passes around the perimeter for the best shot possible and going deep into the shotclock.

But obviously he's watched alot of Raptors game so I guess I could be wrong and all.


----------



## HB

SickGame said:


> I guess what he's saying is that the Raptors won't be 100% focused on defense as they're always half ready for rushing down the floor and get a quick basket.....which is retarded since the Raptors usually work with what they have and can be found, half the time, to making 5-6 passes around the perimeter for the best shot possible and going deep into the shotclock.
> *
> But obviously he's watched alot of Raptors game so I guess I could be wrong and all*.


Actually yes, and care to disprove the fact that Mitchell has said he wants the Raptors to throw up close to 100 shots a game. You think a team concerned about making stops is so eager to shoot the rock every time down the court. Puhhleasee


----------



## Skylaars

HB said:


> Actually yes, and care to disprove the fact that Mitchell has said he wants the Raptors to throw up close to 100 shots a game. You think a team concerned about making stops is so eager to shoot the rock every time down the court. Puhhleasee



He said that before the season even started.. if u did watch the games u should know thats not the philosophy anymore.


----------



## speedythief

The high volume shooting Raptors went extinct in November. Mitchell himself has said as much. The "100 shatz" team is gone. That strategy has been abandoned in favour of simple spacing and ball movement schemes in the half court. Phoenix North went 2-8. The current Raps are 42-25. The Raps are a middle-of-the-pack defensive team (16th in points allowed, 19th in OPP FG%), not a terrible or disinterested one.


----------



## open mike

hahaha... your way off buddy. Im not gonna Youtube it, but you can. Look through all of Smitches PGI n youll see how dramatically different his philosophy is now than in the beginning of the season. Your wrong. We have amazing shooters and great passers which make our offense run smoothly, we dont chuck shots... ala wizards.




No playoff experience you say?

Rasho has played almost a seasons worth of play off games in his career.
Juan Dixon has played playoff games with Wizards
TJ Ford has lead his team to playoffs each season in the league
Mo Pete has played on 2 playoff teams, One without Carter when he got injured, and he was holding most of the scoring burden along with Antonio Davis during that period.
Derrick Martin has been in numerous playoff games as well and will provide good mentoring for all our players



w/e all i know is we beat chicago two times in a row n that is no cooincidence


----------



## HB

speedythief said:


> The high volume shooting Raptors went extinct in November. Mitchell himself has said as much. The "100 shatz" team is gone. That strategy has been abandoned in favour of simple spacing and ball movement schemes in the half court. Phoenix North went 2-8. The current Raps are 42-25. The Raps are a middle-of-the-pack defensive team (16th in points allowed, 19th in OPP FG%), not a terrible or disinterested one.


Ah my bad then. But from the Raps games I have seen, they seem more like an offensive outfit to me.


----------



## SickGame

At least that percpetion of yours is correct, the Raptors are a top-tier offensive 'outfit'(i like that term for a team...outfit sounds cool). However, that doesn't mean they don't play hard on defense and have some decent playmakers that make a difference (mostly Anthony Parker being a very solid perimeter defender and has played well against superstar players).


----------



## speedythief

That's fine.


Also, for the people arguing that the Raps have playoff experience, they are lacking experience in the post-season playing as a unit. The fact that Rasho played alongside Duncan (and was frequently benched) isn't the same thing as being in the playoffs with Bosh and the rest of the Raps. It will be a learning experience for all of them.


----------



## The KiBosh

speedythief said:


> That's fine.
> 
> 
> Also, for the people arguing that the Raps have playoff experience, they are lacking experience in the post-season playing as a unit. The fact that Rasho played alongside Duncan (and was frequently benched) isn't the same thing as being in the playoffs with Bosh and the rest of the Raps. It will be a learning experience for all of them.


Agreed. But all those people that are saying international experience doesn't mean anything have never really watched international ball. Ask team USA if it didn't "mean anything" when they lost in the olympics and trashed their hotel rooms. Ask Dirk if he played any harder for the Mavs in the playoffs then he did when he played for his country. It doesn't matter where your playing ball. Playoffs are all about being able to handle the pressure of big games and in europe every playoff game is a game 7 situation (they play one and done series like the NFL).


----------



## seifer0406

The Raptors do lack playoff experience, I don't think anyone should argue that point. In fact, when your top players are 23 and 24 years of age, they lack pretty much all experience let alone the playoffs. Chris Bosh has never even experienced a winning season in the NBA until this year.

The Raptors' defense is mediocre, their offense is superb. The thing that people should criticize the Raptors for should be their rebounding. If I'm not mistaken the Raptors are one of the worst, if not the worst rebounding team in the NBA. In games where the Raptors shoot a low percentage, they will look horrible since they have trouble winning a low scoring, grind it out ball game. That is the main thing I'm worried about in the playoffs. In pressure games, the jumpshot is usually the first thing to go. When the raps' shots stop falling, they will have trouble beating even the weakest teams.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

HB said:


> Really? I could swear the Raps are more concerned about throwing up quick shots rather than making stops


Your thinking of Vince Carter.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

HB said:


> It means they are more concerned about outscoring their opponents to be bothered about being a defensive outfit. The Raptors do not play D, that is no misconception. *Mitchell has said it countless times that he wants about 100 or so shots a game *. Its just not possible to play good d by throwing up that many shots a game


Apparently your still stuck in October and November 2006. FYI, it's April 2007.


----------



## HB

JuniorNoboa said:


> Your thinking of Vince Carter.


The Nets usually like to take time off the clock


----------



## seifer0406

HB said:


> The Nets usually like to take time off the clock


I thought he was talking about Vince when he was in Toronto. I heard VC still throws those fadeaways when things start going south though.


----------



## yucatan

HB said:


> Ah my bad then. But from the Raps games I have seen, they seem more like an offensive outfit to me.


The Raptors tried the "100 shots" philosophy started the season 2-8, and then abandoned the 100 shots strategy and shifted to a hybrid offense and have gone 43-25 since then. A lot of their improvement can also be attributed to improved defensive play.


----------



## SoCalfan21

In the east there are 2 teams better than the Raptors. The Bulls and Pistons. The rest is a complete crapshoot.


----------



## Dee-Zy

Well, we just stomped the bulls ... I thought Cavs and Heat should be on that list though...

It would be nice just to be mentionned in the same breath as pistons and Heat though


----------



## Knick Killer

The Raptors are currently the toughest team to predict at the moment...who knows how they will do come playoff time. Theres no team in the NBA like the Raptors..theres really no team to compare them too. It's going to all come down to how they adapt to the playoffs. The whole world is watching now..not just Canada. You cant compare a regular season game to the atmosphere of the playoffs..theres just too big of a difference. Thats why vets like Rasho, Mo-Pete and Darrick Martin got to step up their leadership skills. This team can win..they honestly can, its just nobody knows if they can win on the biggest stage yet. This is the perfect chance for Bosh and the Raptors to show the world how much they have improved. It's time to take Raptors basketball serious kids...like it or not they are going to be competiting in the East for many years to come.


----------



## Dee-Zy

Knick_Killer31 said:


> The Raptors are currently the toughest team to predict at the moment...who knows how they will do come playoff time. Theres no team in the NBA like the Raptors..theres really no team to compare them too. It's going to all come down to how they adapt to the playoffs. The whole world is watching now..not just Canada. You cant compare a regular season game to the atmosphere of the playoffs..theres just too big of a difference. Thats why vets like Rasho, Mo-Pete and Darrick Martin got to step up their leadership skills. This team can win..they honestly can, its just nobody knows if they can win on the biggest stage yet. This is the perfect chance for Bosh and the Raptors to show the world how much they have improved. It's time to take Raptors basketball serious kids...like it or not they are going to be competiting in the East for many years to come.


 
repped:clap2:


----------



## Jizzy

Haha.. Rasho Nesterovic


----------



## AllEyezonTX

I like Toronto chances in the Playoffs, the way they are playing of late they can rep the EAST


----------



## SickGame

Haha.. Collins.


----------



## firstrounder

SickGame said:


> Haha.. Collins.


Exactly! Its not like hes a Magic fan with Howard, or a Suns fan with Marion and Amare.

We're talking about a Nets fan making fun of one of our big men. A NETS fan!

:lol:


----------



## Turkish Delight

SoCalfan21 said:


> In the east there are 2 teams better than the Raptors. The Bulls and Pistons. The rest is a complete crapshoot.


The Bulls? That's arguable to say the least. Raps just beat them without Garbajosa and Bargnani. Andrea will be back this Friday so that's just another added boost that the Bulls and any other team that might face the Raps will have to watch out for.


----------



## Jizzy

LOL, Rasho Nesterovic.

Anyways, I see my man Anthony Parker had 26 the other night with six three pointers. Underrated, baby.


----------



## Jizzy

firstrounder said:


> Exactly! Its not like hes a Magic fan with Howard, or a Suns fan with Marion and Amare.
> 
> We're talking about a Nets fan making fun of one of our big men. A NETS fan!
> 
> :lol:



Well, Collins has played good D on Bosh this season.

Game logs so far: 

12 pts on 3/9 shooting
14 pts on 5/13 shooting

Where is my Bosh?


----------



## SickGame

Jizzy said:


> Well, Collins has played good D on Bosh this season.
> 
> Game logs so far:
> 
> 12 pts on 3/9 shooting
> 14 pts on 5/13 shooting
> 
> Where is my Bosh?


You're such a joke. You just convieniantly forgot to include the game when Bosh tored up New Jersey right?

The first stat is from the first game of the season, which really doesn't mean much. I don't put stock in the 5/13.

The second meeting he didn't even play.

The third meeting, he only took 9 shots and had a bad game. It wasn't because of Collins' defense consider that Bosh scored 21+ points in every game except for that one from a span of January 3rd to February 9th, averaging over 25 points a game against far superior defenders. That's called a bad game, not Collins' amazing defense which nobody has heard about it shutting Bosh down. Do realize that he only put up 9 shots, and that was because T.J. was busy jacking up 8 shots, Bargnani 13 shots and Calderon 10 shots, forgetting to feed him the ball. AND COLLINS ONLY PLAYED 25 minutes! But whatever.

*Lastly, when he was on his game, he went off 25 points, 9 rebounds and six assists. The game that you so conveniantly forgot to mention.*

And I mean, really? Collins? A first round draft pick whose pretty much a bust (picked 8th)? Here's something Rasho can claim.
1) He had a career year where he averaged double digits in points. Collins' highest average? 6.4. Ouhhhhh.
2) He's got a championship ring. 

So let me repeat myself.
Haha.. Collins.


----------



## Jizzy

SickGame said:


> You're such a joke. You just convieniantly forgot to include the game when Bosh tored up New Jersey right?
> 
> The first stat is from the first game of the season, which really doesn't mean much. I don't put stock in the 5/13.
> 
> The second meeting he didn't even play.
> 
> The third meeting, he only took 9 shots and had a bad game. It wasn't because of Collins' defense consider that Bosh scored 21+ points in every game except for that one from a span of January 3rd to February 9th, averaging over 25 points a game against far superior defenders. That's called a bad game, not Collins' amazing defense which nobody has heard about it shutting Bosh down. Do realize that he only put up 9 shots, and that was because T.J. was busy jacking up 8 shots, Bargnani 13 shots and Calderon 10 shots, forgetting to feed him the ball. AND COLLINS ONLY PLAYED 25 minutes! But whatever.
> 
> *Lastly, when he was on his game, he went off 25 points, 9 rebounds and six assists. The game that you so conveniantly forgot to mention.*
> 
> And I mean, really? Collins? A first round draft pick whose pretty much a bust (picked 8th)? Here's something Rasho can claim.
> 1) He had a career year where he averaged double digits in points. Collins' highest average? 6.4. Ouhhhhh.
> 2) He's got a championship ring.
> 
> So let me repeat myself.
> Haha.. Collins.



LOL, so basically you're just saying he has bad game sagainst NJ only but it has nothing to do witht he defense. Bosh never had 15 against the Nets this season. Basically, you;'re just lying out of our *** right now and just saying he had bad games. Bosh never "tored" up NJ this season. 

Homer much?

Collins was picked 18, FYI. Where is Chris Bosh?


----------



## Jizzy

LOL at thinking Rasho will be a factor. The Spurs benched him because he sucks. Another thing you can add to that list of Rasho highlights is that they treade dfor Nazr Mohammed after realizng how much Rasho sucks.


----------



## SickGame

Hey, another point for idiocy.
Let's go over this one more time.

Yes, he had a bad game. When a guy goes for an average of 25 points a game for a whole month against superior defensive players and teams, and then only puts up 9 shots against the Nets and plays poorly, it's called having a bad game, not an awesome defense by the Nets.

And secondly: 
Feb 14 NJN W 120-109 40:34 8 15 53.3 0 0 0.0 9 11 81.8 1 8 9rb 6ast 3 0 0 2 25 pts

Let's go Jeezy.

I'll admit this much though: I was wrong, I thought I read 8th but yeah, 18th is the right draft.


----------



## Jizzy

SickGame said:


> Hey, another point for idiocy.
> Let's go over this one more time.
> 
> Yes, he had a bad game. When a guy goes for an average of 25 points a game for a whole month against superior defensive players and teams, and then only puts up 9 shots against the Nets and plays poorly, it's called having a bad game, not an awesome defense by the Nets.
> 
> And secondly:
> Feb 14 NJN W 120-109 40:34 8 15 53.3 0 0 0.0 9 11 81.8 1 8 9rb 6ast 3 0 0 2 25 pts
> 
> Let's go Jeezy.
> 
> I'll admit this much though: I was wrong, I thought I read 8th but yeah, 18th is the right draft.


I see you are not as up to date as the others but let me try and put this into colors:

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HIS GAMES AGAINST THE NETS, NOT AGAINST OTHER SUPERIOR DEFENSIVE TEAMS. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT??????? I PROVED YOU WRONG USING YOUR OWN METHOD OF PERSUASION, STATS. YOU OBVIOUSLY LIVE BY STATS BECUASE IF YOU WATCHED THE GAMES, BOSH WAS SMUGGLED EVERYTIME HE GOT THE BALL. MIKKI MOORE REJECTED HIM 3 TIMES THIS SEASON IN ONE GAME.


----------



## SickGame

Whatever you say about Rasho doesn't warrant much because he won a ring so he was part of that team and averaged 20 minutes which means something. He was benched because of matchup difficulties. On top of that, he has come to the Raptors and has been an important part of making the team into a playoff contender.
So nevertheless, he's a proven winner.


----------



## Theonee

I wouldn't be surprised if Toronto makes it all the way to the Eastern conferences finals, or even further.


----------



## SickGame

But that can be used for any other star on the Nets. Carter struggled against the Raptors on the one game that Bosh played well. Bad game or awesome defense? Since we all know the Raptors aren't a great defensive club, it's called a bad game.

He had one bad game and one good game, the other being disregarded on the fact that it was the first game of the season, therefore meaningless.
Of the two games that counted in terms of division race and playoff implications, Bosh had a bad game (3/9) and then tore up the Nets. Carter had a great game and then had a bad game (15 points).

Are you going to deduce that it was due to the great defensive work of Collins and Parker that made these stars struggle on those nights or admit that the teams aren't great defensively and the stars just had bad games?

Collins isn't a great defender, and much like any other big man in the league, he can't guard Chris Bosh. No big man can. Not Howard. Not Garnett. Not Ben Wallace. 
It's called a bad game.


----------



## Jizzy

SickGame said:


> Whatever you say about Rasho doesn't warrant much because he won a ring so he was part of that team and averaged 20 minutes which means something. He was benched because of matchup difficulties. On top of that, he has come to the Raptors and has been an important part of making the team into a playoff contender.
> So nevertheless, he's a proven winner.



A PROVEN WINNER?????

You mean getting a piggyback ride in San Antonio by TIm Duncan while doing nothing in Minnesota and nothing in Toronto is a proven winner.


----------



## SickGame

Nevertheless, he's a better scorer and defender than Collins (thus actually averaging over 10 points a game once in his career) and has a ring, therefore making him a more valuable player.


----------



## Dornado

The East is wide-open and Toronto is a legitimate contender. I was very impressed with their effort against the Bulls this week... they looked quick, moved the ball well and bothered shots...


----------



## ChristopherJ

Jizzy said:


> LOL, Rasho Nesterovic.
> 
> Anyways, I see my man Anthony Parker had 26 the other night with six three pointers. Underrated, baby.



Why do you have to preface every post with a big fat "LOL" when you disagree with someone? You just sound like a cocky *****, and really, what the hell do you have to be cocky about?

As far as Rasho goes, he's been a great role player for the Raps. He's what you would call a glue guy. Someone who doesn't get much notoriety, but does lots of little things that help the team win in the end. He's been a solid rebounder, solid post defender, and a fairly good finisher around the basket. 

Saying he "sucks" is similar to the statement you made a few months ago when you claimed, "The Raps won't make the playoffs". It's just another matter of fact statement which you think makes you look intelligent, but only proves you don't watch enough Raps games to give a logical opinion.


----------



## SickGame

What KidCanda says is true. Alot of your statements are rubbish, therefore hindering the value of your logic.
Afterall, the Raptors were not going to win the Atlantic Division, they weren't going to make the playoffs and the Nets were going to overtake the Raptors.
But in reality, which is the beautiful part of it all, you...are...wrong.


----------



## Brandname

Eh, it's hard to say any playoff team *isn't* a contender in the East this year. Every team has shown signs of mediocrity throughout the season.


----------



## Jizzy

> Why do you have to preface every post with a big fat "LOL" when you disagree with someone? You just sound like a cocky *****, and really, what the hell do you have to be cocky about?


Everything you do not have. I can be cocky if I want to and I am.WHo the **** are you to tell me not to? You need a serious attitude adjustment, buddy. If something does not involve Steve Nash or canada, you get pissed off and quite frankly, you're becoming annoying.


> As far as Rasho goes, he's been a great role player for the Raps. He's what you would call a glue guy. Someone who doesn't get much notoriety, but does lots of little things that help the team win in the end. He's been a solid rebounder, solid post defender, and a fairly good finisher around the basket.
> Sounds like Collins.


Thank you for describing Jason Collins.


> Saying he "sucks" is similar to the statement you made a few months ago when you claimed, "The Raps won't make the playoffs". It's just another matter of fact statement which you think makes you look intelligent, but only proves you don't watch enough Raps games to give a logical opinion.


Yeah, the Raps did suck at that time. I give credit to them now. They're a really good and surprising team.


----------



## Jizzy

SickGame said:


> What KidCanda says is true. Alot of your statements are rubbish, therefore hindering the value of your logic.
> Afterall, the Raptors were not going to win the Atlantic Division, they weren't going to make the playoffs and the Nets were going to overtake the Raptors.
> But in reality, which is the beautiful part of it all, you...are...wrong.




OK sure. I just proved you wrong, what does that make you claims? 

I don't car if they win the Atlantic, I hope the Nets play the Raps in the first round. Should make for a good series and IMO, they are the easiest opponent for a high seed.


----------



## open mike

hahahaha NETS

Rasho is the MAIN reason were where we are today. Hes second on the team in blocks, just behind bosh. He doesnt gamble on defense and is a big body that knows how to BLOCK OUT, so yea maybe he doesnt get 8 boards in 25 minutes. but he gets 6. Hes shooting over 50%, collins cant make a 10 foot jumper 2 save his life. He motivates our team,and he does NOT TAKE losing lightly. even Tim duncan said "Rasho is awesome"

he scored 16 against timmy d
12 against garnett

he catches everything we throw him. hes a great role model for bargnani slokar and bosh. hes AMAZING!.

worth every penny of hsi contract


----------



## Jizzy

:lol:

TIm Duncan said Rasho is awesome, :lol: :lol:


----------



## speedythief

Why are four of the five people to post the most in this thread Nets fans?


----------



## ChristopherJ

Jizzy said:


> Yeah, the Raps did suck at that time. I give credit to them now. They're a really good and surprising team.


But they didn't suck. They were 24-23 at the time I made this thread, including a record of 22-15 after their horrid 2-8 start. 

There's a reason no one takes you seriously. Being a know-it-all who doesn't know anything is a bad mix.


----------



## Jizzy

KidCanada said:


> But they didn't suck. They were 24-23 at the time I made this thread, including a record of 22-15 after their horrid 2-8 start.
> 
> There's a reason no one takes you seriously. Being a know-it-all who doesn't know anything is a bad mix.


24-23 is not far from sucking.

Hopefully, you don't take me seriously. Save me the agony of reading one of your suicide posts.


----------



## ChristopherJ

Jizzy said:


> Everything you do not have. I can be cocky if I want to and I am.WHo the **** are you to tell me not to? You need a serious attitude adjustment, buddy.



You rock. :yay:


----------



## mjm1

speedythief said:


> Why are four of the five people to post the most in this thread Nets fans?


75 percent of the board follows or is a fan of New Jersey.


----------



## mjm1

Jizzy said:


> 24-23 is not far from sucking.
> 
> Hopefully, you don't take me seriously. Save me the agony of reading one of your suicide posts.


24-23 buys you a six seed in the Eastern Conference.


----------



## The KiBosh

Jizzy said:


> 24-23 is not far from sucking.


If 24-23 (a plus 0.500 record) is not far from sucking.... Then what do you call a 37-40 record?


----------



## shookem

KidCanada said:


> There's a reason no one takes you seriously. Being a know-it-all who doesn't know anything is a bad mix.


I always thought he was trying to be funny. I mean, why else would he have such a lame sig? I figured it was a joke because no one, even on the internet could be that lame ... could they?

Rasho has been a big part of the turnaround. I certainly don't think his experience in the postseason will steal you any series but he'll show up every night and do a job that's not always fun (guarding the biggest, toughest guy on the other team).


----------



## firstrounder

Jizzy, your team has been getting teabagged by the Raptors all season. You stated numerous times early in the season that the Nets would win the Atlantic. Not only did the Nets not win the Atlantic, but the Raptors were the first team to clinch a division.

Your Nets suck, you are in denial, and to top it off you have perhaps the most hideous avatar I have ever seen.

Enjoy your crappy team!


----------



## Jizzy

All I ahev to say is, I am praying the Nets get the 6th seed and play the Raptors.


----------



## Jizzy

shookem said:


> *I always thought he was trying to be funny. I mean, why else would he have such a lame sig? I figured it was a joke because no one, even on the internet could be that lame ... could they?*
> Rasho has been a big part of the turnaround. I certainly don't think his experience in the postseason will steal you any series but he'll show up every night and do a job that's not always fun (guarding the biggest, toughest guy on the other team).



LOL. I'm sure my sig and my avatar had a huge effect on the Raptors. I can see where this is headed.

Raptors fans sure are feisty.


----------



## seifer0406

Theres one Nets fan here that can't read.


----------



## shookem

Jizzy said:


> LOL. I'm sure my sig and my avatar had a huge effect on the Raptors. I can see where this is headed.
> 
> Raptors fans sure are feisty.


Removed the sig eh? Can't blame ya.


----------



## Jizzy

shookem said:


> Removed the sig eh? Can't blame ya.



Yes and that line was from a Jim Jones song, BTW. the dude in my avatar.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

mjm1 said:


> 75 percent of the board follows or is a fan of New Jersey.


75% of the board, and about 10% of the qaulity posts/


----------



## Jizzy

You know what, the Raps could surprise alot of people. All of the Raptor fans killing me got me thinking of how dangerous a young team like them could be. Like the Bulls of last season. I still think they're one round and out, well maybe not considering they might play the Wizards but I must admit, I like what they're doing in Canada.


----------



## open mike

thanks jizzboy!
u dont mind if i call u that do u ? 


Its lookin more n more likely that the Raps will face the Nets in the first round though... Wizards cant seem to win a game.

How bout we make it interesting. IF either of the NETS or RAPTORS make it past the first round, I, MIKE NOFF THE ILLEST, will change my signature to

Vince Carter is Amazing and the Raptors should have never traded him

and you, Jizzface, will change your sig to 

Raptors are BAAAAALLIIINNN!!

Till the end of the playoffs.


----------



## SickGame

Jizzy said:


> You know what, the Raps could surprise alot of people. All of the Raptor fans killing me got me thinking of how dangerous a young team like them could be. Like the Bulls of last season. I still think they're one round and out, well maybe not considering they might play the Wizards but I must admit, I like what they're doing in Canada.


Where am I?
Is this some sort of bizzaro world?


----------



## The Mad Viking

Jizzy said:


> I see you are not as up to date as the others but let me try and put this into colors:
> 
> WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HIS GAMES AGAINST THE NETS, NOT AGAINST OTHER SUPERIOR DEFENSIVE TEAMS. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT??????? I PROVED YOU WRONG USING YOUR OWN METHOD OF PERSUASION, STATS. YOU OBVIOUSLY LIVE BY STATS BECUASE IF YOU WATCHED THE GAMES, BOSH WAS SMUGGLED EVERYTIME HE GOT THE BALL. MIKKI MOORE REJECTED HIM 3 TIMES THIS SEASON IN ONE GAME.


I disagree with almost everything Jizzy says, except we share respect for Parker. Most underated.

However, he is right about Collins (& Moore) they do a good job on Bosh. Credit to Bosh that he adjusted and responded, but I have to say it was not for no reason Bosh struggled against Collins & Moore. They play him tough, and they got double help a lot. (Hence 6 assists when Bosh adjusted.)


----------



## richboy5head

Not necessary


----------



## Jizzy

open mike said:


> thanks jizzboy!
> u dont mind if i call u that do u ?
> 
> 
> Its lookin more n more likely that the Raps will face the Nets in the first round though... Wizards cant seem to win a game.
> 
> How bout we make it interesting. IF either of the NETS or RAPTORS make it past the first round, I, MIKE NOFF THE ILLEST, will change my signature to
> 
> Vince Carter is Amazing and the Raptors should have never traded him
> 
> and you, Jizzface, will change your sig to
> 
> Raptors are BAAAAALLIIINNN!!
> 
> Till the end of the playoffs.


I don't know if you're insulting me or not but I am def. game. Actually, a Raps fan came to the Nets forum and proposed this deal. I say we get a bunch of Raps and Nets fans who are down for this and make it fun.

After all, the Nets and Raps have two of the biggest fanbases on BBB next to the Bulls. Should be fun.


----------



## -James-

Jizzy said:


> I don't know if you're insulting me or not but I am def. game. Actually, a Raps fan came to the Nets forum and proposed this deal. I say we get a bunch of Raps and Nets fans who are down for this and make it fun.
> 
> After all, the Nets and Raps have two of the biggest fanbases on BBB next to the Bulls. Should be fun.


I am down, my friend.


----------



## Air Fly

I told you people, Raps are tough to beat at home. They are my darkhorse for the playoffs.


----------



## Mateo

took Colangelo 1 year to turn a woeful Raptors team into a probably second round playoff team. Wow. They are going to be really really good in a couple of years. I have a feeling teams are going to attempt to duplicate their building strategy in the future.


----------



## firstrounder

If you lose the bet Jizzface, please kill that horrible picture of that crappy rapper giving a peace sign over his eye in your avatar as well.


----------



## Pain5155

if the nets play the raptors, vince will not be a factor when the play in TO. THe crowd will be on his back even more then the first time he came back. give us the wiz or the nets, it wont matter cause we'll finish any of them in 5 games.


----------



## Jizzy

firstrounder said:


> If you lose the bet Jizzface, please kill that horrible picture of that crappy rapper giving a peace sign over his eye in your avatar as well.


No.


----------



## Air Fly

firstrounder said:


> If you lose the bet *Jizzface*, please kill that horrible picture of that crappy rapper giving a peace sign over his eye in your avatar as well.


:lol: 

Sorry jizzy, but that was hilarious.


----------



## SickGame

Seriously, Jim Jones is wack


----------



## Dee-Zy

How about if we win Nets fan have Vince Carter is ***** and ruins the Nets in their sig? I'd be down for that.

lol @ all the Collins talk as if he is not a scrub, he wouldn't be starting anywhere else in the league. He is like a 8th or 9th man on a playoff team. I actually want to play the Nets now. lol


----------



## open mike

ok then its settled..
honestly i would love for the raptors to lay the nets and its looking more n more likely as the season comes to an end. it would be soooo heated ... from the raps side at least. ps. jason kidd is the most underrated pg of all time.
i love the nets to be honest... josh boone, bostan nachbar, nenad krstic,and to a lesser extent antoine wright and marcus williams all nice young players


ps. air fly, i called him jizzface first so quote mee!! me!


----------



## Jizzy

Dee-Zy said:


> How about if we win Nets fan have Vince Carter is ***** and ruins the Nets in their sig? I'd be down for that.
> 
> lol @ all the Collins talk as if he is not a scrub, he wouldn't be starting anywhere else in the league. He is like a 8th or 9th man on a playoff team. I actually want to play the Nets now. lol



I know that. I am begging for Josh Boone to take his spot in the starting lineup but considering we have the worst coach in the league, not happening. He does play good defense thoguh so he might be useful.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

Pistons, Heat, Bulls, Cavs and Raptors. I think all of those teams are contenders in the East.


----------



## HB

You know its really going to be ironic if this Raptors team gets knocked out in the first round.


----------



## MrkLrn13

Dee-Zy said:


> How about if we win Nets fan have Vince Carter is ***** and ruins the Nets in their sig? I'd be down for that.


But wouldn't they like that? I think that's what they've been moaning about the past few months. 


:biggrin:


----------



## Dee-Zy

ok, let's settle on, Vince Carter is a *****


----------



## speedythief

HB said:


> You know its really going to be ironic if this Raptors team gets knocked out in the first round.


Do you know what irony is?

Carter left Toronto 'to go to a winner'.

Jersey losing to Toronto would be ironic, not the other way around.


----------



## Jizzy

speedythief said:


> Do you know what irony is?
> 
> Carter left Toronto 'to go to a winner'.
> 
> Jersey losing to Toronto would be ironic, not the other way around.



He never left to go to a winner, he never has any say where he was going to go and NJ has been a winner ever since Carter has been traded here with the exception of this year. The irony would be the Raps make the playoffs without Carter and get bounced because of Carter, if that happens to be the scenario.


----------



## HB

speedythief said:


> Do you know what irony is?
> 
> Carter left Toronto 'to go to a winner'.
> 
> Jersey losing to Toronto would be ironic, not the other way around.


Well I dont know too many NBA 'contenders' that get sent packing in the first round. Theres gotta be some irony in there somewhere


----------



## Knick Killer

This has turned into a Nets fans hating on the Raptors thread...as hard as it is to believe the Raptors are contending in the East...thats right Kids the RAPTORS are contending in the East. Who would've thought? Not even us Raptor fans thought. The Raptors have been outstanding this year and all they get from NJ fans is hate? Or should i possibly say jealousy? Common now boys...give the Raps some respect. They deserve it.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

HB said:


> You know its really going to be ironic if this Raptors team gets knocked out in the first round.


What would be the irony, You need that for something to be ironic, don't you think?


----------



## JuniorNoboa

Jizzy said:


> He never left to go to a winner, he never has any say where he was going to go and NJ has been a winner ever since Carter has been traded here with the exception of this year. The irony would be the Raps make the playoffs without Carter and get bounced because of Carter, if that happens to be the scenario.


You don't know the definition of irony.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

HB said:


> Well I dont know too many NBA 'contenders' that get sent packing in the first round. Theres gotta be some irony in there somewhere


I should just read the whole thread before posting.

This is not irony.

What the post does demonstrate is that your a hater. That's cool... I hate VInce and the Nets.


----------



## SickGame

Alot of English majors in the house today.

In no sense was any of that irony (not Socratic, Dramatic or even Comedic irongy). There wouldn't be any irony in Carter trouncing the Raptors out of the playoffs (if it were to happen) as there has to be sort of....well...how do I explain this...hmm.

For example: It would be ironic if an anti-gun activist ended up getting shot by an NRA member.
Awful example, but that would be considered ironic. 
Contrary to popular belief (thank you Alanis Morisette), there is no irony in rain falling on your wedding day (that's just bad luck). 

So to use Jizzy's post as an example, the only way that irony would be present in the situation he describes is that the Raptors had traded Vince Carter because he wasn't leading them to the playoffs (and traded him in order to better the team). Carter then came back and beat the Raptors in the playoffs. That would ironic.
Unfortunately or fortunately, this wasn't the case. Carter forced himself out of Toronto. He was never foced out. 

Actually, the irony would lie in the fact that Carter left the Raptors because he felt they were a losing franchise and wanted greener/more successful pastures. However, three years later, he finds himself with no ring, a sinking ship in New Jersey (in my opinion) and looking up at the Toronto Raptors, his former team, who have a better seeding, record and the Atlantic division crown (formerly owned by the Nets). 
It would be even more ironic if the Raptors faced the Nets and ousted them out of the playoffs.


That's where you would find irony.


----------



## HB

JuniorNoboa said:


> I should just read the whole thread before posting.
> 
> This is not irony.
> 
> What the post does demonstrate is that your a hater. That's cool... I hate VInce and the Nets.


Why would I hate the Raptors? Honestly I am happy for them and the great season they had. I have no reason whatsoever to hate the Raptors. I was happy when Vince left, i'd say both parties benefitted from that split


----------



## Jizzy

JuniorNoboa said:


> You don't know the definition of irony.



I suppose only Raptor fans do.

There is nothing ironic about SpeedyTheif's point he is trying to make.


----------



## HB

Irony: a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form


----------



## seifer0406

HB said:


> Irony: a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form


That does not explain where the humor is coming from. A guy slipping on icy roads could be humorous. A person using words he doesn't understand can be humorous, it does not explain what irony means.

If I'm not mistaken, sardonic means mockery, again, how does that have anything to do with this?

You don't need to be an English major to know what irony means. English isn't even my first language. This was taught somewhere in middleschool.


----------



## SickGame

I actually explained it to you guys, but maybe reading a post bigger than 4 lines proves to be too daunting of a task?


----------



## Ras

I don't understand; why does it say on the NBA Forum that this thread has a post made tonight by 'sick game' but it doesn't have one? How is this bumped without a person making a post? I've actually seen this before too.



It sucks to be a Raptors fan right now though.

*Edit -* I actually shouldn't go that far. I love the Raptors future, but they have a long ways to go still. Hopefully we see a better/more experienced looking team in next years playoff (especially Bosh).


----------



## Jizzy

Great Chris Bosh quotes, BTW.

My favorite one is the one where he admits his nerves are wrecked playing this team. And also, now you can see why Milwaukee opted to trade Ford. He's a shoot first PG who can't shoot and forgets his teammates at times.


----------



## Dre

You guys shouldn't have expected much in your first appearance.


----------



## L

The team still has a very bright future. They just got to hope that Bosh doesnt turn into a Jermaine O'Neal clone.(A big that falls in love with the jumpshot to much till the point he needs to feel motivated to attack in the paint..)


----------



## Jizzy

_Dre_ said:


> You guys shouldn't have expected much in your first appearance.



Some fans did and so did the threadstarter.


----------



## Jizzy

Astral Dragon said:


> The team still has a very bright future. They just got to hope that Bosh doesnt turn into a Jermaine O'Neal clone.(A big that falls in love with the jumpshot to much till the point he needs to feel motivated to attack in the paint..)



Bosh is playing like O'Neal. Soft and afraid of contact. For there sakes, they better hope he gains a couple of pounds and doesn't totally rely on quickness.

I've been REALLY unimpressed with Bargnani. Understand that he's a rookie but he just stands behind the three point line and doesn't contribute elsewhere.


----------



## seifer0406

Bargnani is obviously not 100% or anywhere close to that. An internal injury is not like a sprain ankle or broken finger, your entire body is weakened and it takes a long time to regain your strength. He is only playing because it's the playoffs. Normally a player would take longer time off from an appendectomy instead of only 4 weeks.

Bargnani before he was injured drove the ball inside frequently and was active on the defensive end. We did not see any of that in the playoffs. Of course, the rookie jitters have something to do with it as well, but it's quite obvious to some of us who've watched him over the entire season to see that he's not playing at full force.


----------



## Fray

SickGame said:


> maybe reading a post bigger than 4 lines proves to be too daunting of a task?


Exactly! I'm not trying to read a novel when I log onto this forum. :wink:


----------



## thacarter

yes they are definitely contenders lmfaoooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## R-Star

thacarter said:


> yes they are definitely contenders lmfaoooooooooooooooooooo



Hopefully they can come back next year and play even better. They fell apart against the Nets.


----------



## Brandname

thacarter said:


> yes they are definitely contenders lmfaoooooooooooooooooooo


Accept your win gracefully. There's no need for this kind of stuff.


----------



## thacarter

Brandname said:


> Accept your win gracefully. There's no need for this kind of stuff.


oh yes there is! and hope ur cavs dont lose next cuz its gonna get rowdy in here:cheers:


----------



## VCofMontreal

toronto is indeed a contender in the east!


----------



## PFortyy

Hate to be a raptors fan right now.


----------



## ABargnani

ronna_meade21 said:


> Hate to be a raptors fan right now.


Nah, it sucked losing the series but I'm happy by what we accomplished as a team during this season. A lot of positives came this year.


----------



## PFortyy

ABargnani said:


> Nah, it sucked losing the series but I'm happy by what we accomplished as a team during this season. A lot of positives came this year.


yeah, good point. the raptors had a very good season. Hopefully you guys do better next year in the playoffs. Im sure they will make it.


----------



## Jizzy

Good series by the Raptors. Bargnani and Calderon are some types of players, especially Bargnani. THe kid will be a 20 ppg scorer someday. THey'll be back next season.


----------



## 4BiddenKnight

ABargnani said:


> Nah, it sucked losing the series but I'm happy by what we accomplished as a team during this season. A lot of positives came this year.


Yeah, after I saw that last play, I realized how close they came to possibly being able to get to the second round because they get home court in game 7, and how far they've gone. Bargnani, Ford, Rasho, Dixon, lots of newcomers came together and clinched the Atlantic. Sam went from a scrub to COY. Never disappoints me to see how much the Raps have progressed in one season. And it will certainly not disappoint me seeing them come so close to being able to push the series to 7 games.


----------



## VCofMontreal

Yep, contender indeed. bosh = I'm an idiot


----------



## Dee-Zy

Wow, talking about turning the knife in the wound...

Meh, I don't care. I gave up on the raps this season. **** them.


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## futuristxen

They just traded for Reggie Evans. Surely championships are right around the corner!


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## Chan Ho Nam

lol, not even Raptor fans think Raptors can be contenders


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## MrkLrn13

Now that we've got Reggie Evans.


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## southeasy

this thread was made when we had Mo-Pete ahaha damn.

and well... we were never contenders. but i don't care

Reg-Evs FTW

hopefully we can build on not sucking and making the playoffs again, and maybe , just maybe

2nd round = our championship.


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## Dee-Zy

Raps fans did not believe they were contendors because they were not homers. That was one thing I liked about the raps fans on this board before the change of management of this discussion board and 1/2 of the quality members left and 1/4 of the other quality members just disapeared.

Now the raps suck and the raps board is dead. Doesn't even have a post a day when it used to have like 20+ a day or half a dozen in the off season.

shame really.


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## roux

Dee-Zy said:


> Raps fans did not believe they were contendors because they were not homers. That was one thing I liked about the raps fans on this board before the change of management of this discussion board and 1/2 of the quality members left and 1/4 of the other quality members just disapeared.
> 
> *Now the raps suck and the raps board is dead. Doesn't even have a post a day when it used to have like 20+ a day or half a dozen in the off season.
> 
> shame really.*


No doubt, some of the most fun i ever had on this site was when the Bucks and Raptors swapped Ford for CV, my arguing on the Raps board felt like it was 1 against 100


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## southeasy

one or two quality posters fall down off the raptors board, and it's a domino effect. i stopped posting in there because they stopped posting in there

but with the activity i know we will have as a team this off-season.. WE'LL BRING IT BACK!


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## eddymac

I used to hate those debates between Nets and Raptor fans.


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