# The "Robertson" Report....



## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_4608.shtml



> ..........The Blazers decided late last week not to offer Pippen a contract and this was a decision made almost entirely by John Nash in one of his first actions. Cheeks reportedly wanted Pippen to stay as Pippen is a calming influence but Nash determined that paying $5-6 million per season for Pippen with his health was not worth the ultimate tax payment of $5-6 million in addition to the salary and may have a detrimental effect on the team.
> 
> 
> ...........I think the Blazers made an enormous mistake on letting Pippen go from a fan perspective and I think the Blazers are dangerously treading severe disinterest in this squad. Pippen and Sabonis are the two players most often cited to me by fans as the reasons they watch and enjoy the Blazers and what the Blazers should strive to be. Rasheed has a very solid fan base and is easily the most popular Blazers player, but after him it is a long way down to the next favorite player. The fans do not rise to Bonzi’s support and Derek Anderson would be very popular if he could remain healthy. Zach Randolph may be the next most popular Blazers player due to his seemingly high work ethic on the court and enthusiasm for the game. I’m not sure that Kersey as a possible assistant coach really quenches my stench taste. With the Blazers laying off a huge chunk of the work force, not resigning Sabonis and Pippen all that is left is for the Blazers is to enlist Bob Whitsitt to personally come to each season ticket holder’s house and kick them in the balls to make the bile really boil right up to my lips regarding this team.


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## Gym Rat (Dec 30, 2002)

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## bfan1 (Mar 5, 2003)

*...*

At this point in time-I agree.

knock knock

who's there?


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

Wow. Never seen him so peeved.


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## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

I love the move of pippen leaving , It gets him out and gives young guys more time


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Seems like someone swallowed a bitter pill.

Now I totally agree that firing 90 people is awful and IMO is not justified by the explanation provided. At the same time I feel that we need to be patient and see what Nash is up to. 

Letting Pippen walk...I think you all know how I felt on this one. I am totally aware of the fan's love of Pippen (Yes I like him a lot too). They have told us that trimming expenditures is a main goal, we need to understand that, and unfoortunately resigning Pippen would have equated to$10-$12 mil of expenses for each of the next 2 years.

We have been spoiled...rotten maybe... TO have had an owner that for the last several years didn't care about how much Jack he spent. Well unfortuantelet for us fans now he does care and that means in the near future no unrealistic spending.

I hope there is some truth to the Damon thing, but I won't put a lot of hope in it.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

I think he was being too nice...

considering the last couple of weeks events... he was just too nice.

We want to strive for quality players...

lets just hope Nash can pull a rabbit out of the hat...

DA at PG, and no depth at center will not lead us to the promised land

yes, its hard to be patient


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Hey come on we all screamed for Whitsitts head...We got it, he's gone. Now we have a new GM and we're ticked with him after what...5 days?

Give me a big fat freaking break! Let the guy get some work done. The organization has indeed been upfront about what some of the summers goals are.

Anyone who has ever built or created something will understand that they hate being judged after the firstbrush stroke on canvas. Let's wait till the picture is at leat mostly complete before we start passing judgement.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

Agree 100%

Take a step back, at least give the guy a month to get something done. Sure, if all he did was let a few guys walk and brought back the same team minus a few guys that would be awful. But the dude just got hired, cut him a break...

Discuss moves that YOU would do to improve the team if you must, but don't jump on him for not having done any yet. To get an actual deal done, it takes a lot of time and work.


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## Terrible (Jan 3, 2003)

Pip is an old bull that will second guess moves made by the Blazers in the media, so he's gone! I don't think guys like Patterson like to be raked over the coals for the papers to see. Pip shot his mouth off about the owner and that nailed his coffin, last year. Pip can go to the Bulls and walk down memory lane with Paxon who will let him have a say about anything and I wouldn't be shocked to see him take over as an assistant coach with the Bulls when he's done. It's a good fit for a guy that has alot to say on a team run with a bunch of guys who watched him take them to greatness. 

The Blazers new guys are saying it's our way now or the highway. Sheed is going to be used this year and his arsss is gone next year in New York Minute! Bonzi will fly right or he may be next. Damon may only see the bench this year, and I'm almost sure we've got another PG in mind.

I'm exited for Zach and Q to get some minutes and to see just how good Sheed will be this year when his money is on the line! DA hopefully will be healthy this year for the playoffs and maybe Boumtje will be a rock in the middle.


This team is going to be fast and young, DA , Sheed and Damon might be the only old guard left.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

Yeah, let's run Sheed at the point!

First ever 7' point guard!

Sheed
DA
Bonzi
Randolph
Davis


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## Arizona Bay (Jan 3, 2003)

Oh no. Pippen, one of Portland's most popular players, is gone. What will the Blazers do without their most popular player? 

I don't think anyone should be trashing on Nash yet. He's not Whitsitt, and that's a good thing. Whitsitt's philosophies never brought the Blazers a Championship, so let's go in the other direction and see what happens. It's worth a shot. Be patient.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Some are still trying to get over Clyde leaving.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

On the one hand, I can understand some frustration from Robertson and some of the fans... they've built up their anti-Whitsitt feelings for so long, some of them probably imagined some sort of panacea of change that would make them happier. Now that it's apparent that the team CAN do some "wrong" it's confusing without Whitsitt to kick around.

On the other hand, Nash has been on the job for less than a month. He might have some things that will make almost everyone happy by the end of summer... or at least do something that gives letting Pippen leave more context. It seems too early to get worked up about Nash at this point.

Ed O.


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> Nash has been on the job for less than a month.


Actually he's been on the job for less than a week. I'm gonna hold off on *****ing and complaining until atleast the start of training camp. But if we start the season and we don't have a shooter and Damon's still our best point guard and Patterson's still on the team I'll be rip****.

Kind of a strange report really. Didn't seem to have anywhere near the level of insider info I'm used to recieving from Jeff. Maybe some of his sources were part of the layoff and that's why he's so bitter. I think he's peeved cause he's been telling us for so long that Pippen was definately coming back and then Nash came in and ruined that.

Why he isn't admitting to the obvious build around Randolph and Woods, have a lot of cap room in 05 plan is beyond me. Seems rather plain that Pippen is not a part of that plan. If Woods can produce this year maybe he'll become 

If the indiana deal that sticks us with Croshere is the best we can do for Damon I say we stick with him. Let him be the starter and see if maybe we can get a better deal for him later or just let his contract expire. I don't have any problem with them admitting that Damon is the best point guard we have and we're sorry we couldn't get a better one and we'll try again next off season.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

Jeff isn't worked up over Nash. He is angry over the Blazers Organization.

So far nothing has gone particularly well.

Sure it is too early to render a verdict on the overall change in direction of the organization and the off-season changes. But, when all is negative and neutral so far, the organization needs to start batting 1000 the rest of the way.

The organization announced that they were going to clean house, get rid of the bad apples, and field a team that the fans could love again, all while maintaining the playoff streak. They were also going to reign in the days of unlimited spending on payroll.

What has the Blazers organization accomplished so far?

Took a long time to hire a President and GM. In the case of the GM, too late for him to have any input into the draft, potential draft day trades, or attempt to work sign-and-trades with the most desired free agents. 

This delay likely ruined any chance Nash had for pulling of a major roster overhaul right away. Instead, he will have to tinker this summer, and wait for mid-season trading season and next summer to make his moves. Won't it be fun to watch the opening day roster that will be filled with trade bait?

The Blazers fired a ton of staff to cut costs. There is no way this will make going to the Rose Garden a better experience, interacting with the organization an improvement or the community involvement better.

Quality assistant coaches have left.

The Mo Cheeks wooing by Philly was mishandled.

Sabonis is gone. Pippen is gone. The two most loved Blazers - gone.

Have the Blazers managed to unload any of their bad apples or PR problems? Nope. Not a one.

Have the Blazers brought in a player of impeccable character to set the new standard? Nope.

What have they accomplished so far?

*They have reduced player payroll significantly by letting all free agents walk, regardless of fan popularity or character and have slashed expenses by cutting staff.* 

Do I blame Allen and the Blazers for slashing expenses, and making that priority no. 1? Nope. But I sure don't want to hear from them how fielding a team the fans can be proud of, that will still make the playoffs was their top priority. Because those statements are B.S. Actions speak louder than words and their actions show very clearly what their top priority has been. And now the Blazers are perilously close to being painted in a corner where Nash is left to choose to either keep many of the talented bad apples on the team to stay competitive or dump them for lesser talent. If the Sabonis contract is not used to get the Blazers a Center or Point Guard, we will know a lot.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

Ya, i find it funny that the blazers said they were gonna get rid of the bad attitudes, but instead get rid of 2 good attitudes(AD, Pippen) leaving only DA as the good boy guy.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

I think there has been a basic misapprehension amongst many people that the Blazers have at some point promised to "clean house".

I might have missed a quote or two, but what I read from Paul Allen is that the team won't be putting up with misbehavior, and the team would make the city proud.

While it's easy to read a house-cleaning into some of the comments, based on my recollection of what has been written and said, it's also easy to see that the team was going to deal more harshly with players _on a go-forward basis_, not by getting rid of players that have messed up in the past.

Of course, I could be wrong, and there's a lot of summer left, but those who have had expectations (which are, IMO, false) that the team was going to dump all the players with shady pasts seem bound to be disappointed...

Ed O.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

Dear lord...

So we didn't have a new GM for the draft. Okay, did we really lose out there? Do you think Cleveland, Detroit or Denver were going to give up their picks? Nope, and I'm sure Whittsit tried anyway...

So we missed the early FA period. I forget, how much cap room did we have to woo Kidd, O'Neal, Miller, Arenas, etc? What major free agents left their teams that we could have worked a sign and trade for? There are still plenty of free agents available at the price that this team could afford.

And what in the world do you mean it's too late for a roster overhaul? Training camp doesn't open until October. That's over 2 months away! How many big trades have gone down so far that Portland missed out on? I can't think of one... 

You guys are so freaking impatient, it's unbelievable. Let the new guy get settled, there's plenty of time.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Nash himself has said that he would need a couple of weeks to...

1. Evaluate where the team is.
and
2. Evaluate what they can do roster wise.

From what I understand the Bulls wnated an answer from Pippen immediately and Nash did in fact ask Pippen for more time. That to me is not just letting him walk, what it is, is a new GM saying I"I need some time to figure out what we are needing to do as a team". Pippen couldn't and shoudn't have waited.

As far as Daniels is concerned, I think Ed pointed out that Portland likely would have had to offer him more than the $3mil to come in a get more limited PT in PDX than Seattle. AD made the right decision for himself.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> I think there has been a basic misapprehension amongst many people that the Blazers have at some point promised to "clean house".
> 
> I might have missed a quote or two, but what I read from Paul Allen is that the team won't be putting up with misbehavior, and the team would make the city proud.
> ...


You are kidding right?

How on earth do you field a team the "City can be proud of" while retaining several PR problems and showing the door the two most popular players? 

You can attempt to gloss over what Allen said, what he promised and what it implies, like reading tea leaves (did he imply cleaning house or not?), but the fact remains that if the Blazers were serious about rehabbing their image and drawing fans back that left due to image problems - fields a teams that includes all of: Damon, Ruben, Sheed, and Bonzi, while simultaneously having allowed Pippen and Sabas to walk, that is a clear signal that he didn't mean what he said.

Reacting to the latest bonehead move by people who have proven in the past they were knuckleheads does NOTHING.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

You don't win a game of chess by with the first move either.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

Right, but that doesn't mean that they get rid of every single player that had a problem...

For me, if they get rid of Patterson and Damon, it's enough for one offseason. Especially if they bring back quality guys, or acquire a quality guy on the market. My biggest wish is to establish a solid 8-9 man rotation. I think if we have the right rotation, we could see improvement over last year. Defined roles have been lacking for the last 5+ seasons...

I will be angry like the rest of you if nothing major happens by October, but I will at least reserve judgement until late August...

Cheers


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

For me if they move Patterson it is enough. Moving Stoudamire, while ideal, is so far strething that I have to think that just trying is about the extent of what can happen there.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Blazer Ringbearer</b>!
> Dear lord...
> 
> So we didn't have a new GM for the draft. Okay, did we really lose out there? Do you think Cleveland, Detroit or Denver were going to give up their picks? Nope, and I'm sure Whittsit tried anyway...
> ...


Plenty of time for what?

Plenty of time to slowly and painfully divest the team of it's knuckleheads, losing talent in the process? Yes.

Plenty of time to begin a multi-year process of purging big contract players from the roster and not replacing them? Yes.

Plenty of time to weed the team of redundant talent and develop the younger players (code for lose more)? Yes.

Plenty of time to look for long-term answers at PG and C, since they aren't needed right now on a team that no longer see itself as a contender? Yes.

Plenty of time to retool the team on the fly, making promised character adjustments, and stay right in the thick of the Western Conference contenders? Nope. *Too late*. Pippen a valuable talent or tradeable asset has been allowed to walk. Sabonis has been allowed to walk. Daniels a valuable tradeable asset has been allowed to walk. The Blazers likely have no intention of using their mid-level exception. Their draft pick was a swing for the fences in a long-shot attempt at a future all-star, not snagging a likely role player who could possibly contribute in a year. Nash, now doesn't have enough ammo to make reasonable moves and still field a top team. Yeah, he may still make some big moves, but they will be interim.

And how can I be "freaking impatient" when I waited until the real motives of the team became clear through time by their actions and non-actions and not their words?

I am now 90% confident of this (if the Blazers pocket the Sabonis savings and do not turn it into talent, that will clinch it), the Blazers have thrown in the towel. They are not soon going to attempt to contend for a championship. And since they feel that way and are prepared to enter a rebuilding or retooling period, they have been ordered to become profitable in the meantime. Cost savings will be paramount until this profitability is attained.

I can't blame them, and I hope I am wrong about this as I liked the old way better.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> You are kidding right?


Not in the least.



> How on earth do you field a team the "City can be proud of" while retaining several PR problems and showing the door the two most popular players?


You win basketball games, you place character higher on your priority list when you acquire players in the future, and you punish players more harshly when they slip up.

Letting Pippen go and potentially letting Sabonis go don't really impact PR in the long run, IMO.



> You can attempt to gloss over what Allen said, what he promised and what it implies, like reading tea leaves (did he imply cleaning house or not?), but the fact remains that if the Blazers were serious about rehabbing their image and drawing fans back that left due to image problems - fields a teams that includes all of: Damon, Ruben, Sheed, and Bonzi, while simultaneously having allowed Pippen and Sabas to walk, that is a clear signal that he didn't mean what he said.


That's just not true. It's a clear signal either (a) he didn't mean what he said, (b) he didn't mean what you THOUGHT he said (or, rather, meant), or (c) there's a process that will take longer than a week to put in place. 

I would bet anything it's either (b) or (c).



> Reacting to the latest bonehead move by people who have proven in the past they were knuckleheads does NOTHING.


Again: I disagree. The team's more strict disciplining of Damon shows both the fans and the players that if they mess up the team is going to take it more seriously.

For all of the Blazers' belly-aching, very few Blazers as individuals have been particularly offensive. RP's obviously got the most serious charges against him (both for the 3rd degree attempted rape conviction and the domestic assault allegation), and Damon's drug usage is getting tired.

But Bonzi? Never been in trouble off of the court. He allegedly spit at Danny Ferry and had one quote in a Sports Illustrated after a tough loss that has stuck in the craw of many fans... but in the grand scheme of the NBA this is almost totally insignificant.

Wallace has been in trouble with the law ONCE in a decade... and a minor offense, at that. He had the one bad episode with a ref last year, but generally his attitude towards officials has improved and he's reduced his technicals dramatically.

As a group, the Blazers are a handful... but any given individual isn't enough to make him an automatic-dump candidate. That's why it makes sense to wait for one or more of them to screw up and really drop the hammer than to dump them for lesser value.

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> 
> Pippen a valuable talent or tradeable asset has been allowed to walk. Sabonis has been allowed to walk. Daniels a valuable tradeable asset has been allowed to walk. The Blazers likely have no intention of using their mid-level exception.


What date are you posting this on? It's still mid-July, right?

How do you know they don't plan on using their MLE? The current position of the team seems to be to wait and, if they use it, use it later this summer. Jeff McInnis signed last summer on August 14, remember.

Where did Sabonis go? How are you so sure that he's not going to still be used as the tradeable asset that he is?

Speaking of tradeable assets, how can you honestly think that either Pippen or Daniels were tradeable? Any team in the NBA could have had either of them, whether they traded for them or just signed them as a FA. Daniels, in particular, didn't even manage to get the whole MLE, so I fail to see why any team would have given the Blazers ANYTHING of value for him. Pippen was more interested in the big (relatively speaking) money from Chicago than he was in going to Dallas for the veteran's minimum, and I don't see why any team that wouldn't offer him their MLE would give Portland anything decent in return, either.

With all of this said, I still fear that Portland is going the atrophy route, which is what my primary fear of the team's new direction has been since day 1. I just think that it's too early to confirm that the team is taking the "wither on the vine" approach.

Ed O.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

When did anyone say anything about becoming (they weren't considered one last year) a contender?

It sounds like you've set your expectations way too high, if you expected them to drop payroll, get boy scouts, AND contend for a title all in one offseason... no wait, you expected that to be accomplished a WEEK after free agents could begin signing contracts...

Daniels was not a valuable trade piece, he was an unrestricted FA. He could go wherever he wanted to, in order to use him in a trade we would have had to make a deal with whatever team he decided on going to... and why in the world would Seattle want to work out a deal when they could just sign him for peanuts? 

Pippen's loss is arguable. With or without him, this team isn't a surefire contender, and even with him you have to worry whether he is going to make it through the whole season. He also wasn't a very tradeable commodity for the same reason as Daniels. His price was the exception so potenitally any team could sign him without our help.

Sabonis was not allowed to walk. He is under contract and will likely retire. His contract could still be used as a very valueable trade assett until mid-August.

There is still an incredible amount of talent on this team, even with the loss of these players. What will hopefully be accomplished this offseason will be somewhat of a redistribution of that talent to come up with a rotation with clearly defined roles and lose a problem player or two...

I still see the Blazers making the playoffs with an outside shot at homecourt, which they didn't even get last season. Either way, by working with a set rotation and getting lots of minutes for youngsters they would be much improved the following season. Qyntel and Randolph could very well have a breakout year.

And yes, I think you are being impatient. The GM was just hired. The only thing he has done so far was decide Qyntel over Pippen. That says to me that he is interested in contending in the future, as opposed to trying the same thing that didn't work last season. He's pointing to mid-August for his trade(s), let's see what he has up his sleeve before we start riding his ***.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> You win basketball games, you place character higher on your priority list when you acquire players in the future, and you punish players more harshly when they slip up.
> 
> Letting Pippen go and potentially letting Sabonis go don't really impact PR in the long run, IMO.


 and in the long run we are all dead. In the long run the Rose Garden turns into a masoleum. They made a public statement. There have been lots of changes and lots of activity. Yet so far nothing to address what they claimed was a top priority for them. They need to do something this summer. Not later. They don't have to do it all at once, but there has to be a start. So far the team has actually gone backwards. The net total character of the team has fallen significantly.

Punishing players more harshly when they slip up unfortunately impeds your first critera "You win basketball games", which is actually not a valid criteria. The Blazer have been winning games, and it did little to quell the festering resentment and upset by some of the fans and media toward the team.



> As a group, the Blazers are a handful... but any given individual isn't enough to make him an automatic-dump candidate. That's why it makes sense to wait for one or more of them to screw up and really drop the hammer than to dump them for lesser value.
> 
> Ed O.


 Don't confuse the Blazer's stated criteria with mine. You are preaching to the choir. I don't wan't Bonzi or Rasheed going for anything less than Kevin Garnett, which means they stay if I had anything to do with it. I do want Damon gone - but I never wanted him on the team in the first place. Imagine how I feel now. Ruben needs to go, as his bench contributions are overshadowed by his off-court issues.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> With all of this said, I still fear that Portland is going the atrophy route, which is what my primary fear of the team's new direction has been since day 1. I just think that it's too early to confirm that the team is taking the "wither on the vine" approach.
> 
> Ed O.


So after picking me apart, you have the same feeling about their intentions anyway? Why did you bother? I did say the use or non-use of the Sabonis will be the key signal.

What is so interesting about a post that only points out the obvious of what has already occured? I am posting a prediction here.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

Okay Masbee, I agree, I also want Ruben and Damon gone...

However, what was supposed to be done by July 21st? What move were they capable of making involving these two that would no longer be on the table right now?

I think these are priorities for Nash as well, and I expect him to deal with them but not until he gets settled.


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## Draco (Jun 28, 2003)

I would definitely agree the moves so far haven't been that encouraging. Pippen leaving shows me that the blazers feel they won't contend this year, and they want PT for woods and other younger players to develop. Now it's still real early in the game so there could be some decent moves in the future it is hard to tell this early. My main hope is that Patterson is traded and Sabonis's contract gets something.

I actually think Damon getting busted for pot again might have helped the blazers in their relationship with him, because now he has even less room to ***** about PT or his role. Damon might see that he only has 2 years left on his contract, and if he plays like he did in the Dallas series, he has a good shot of another team trading for him.

Although the start of the offseason hasn't given us fans much hope, I'm optimistic about the future because there are still a number of very talented players on this team, and Wallace playing in the last year of his contract is a big plus. It is way to early to pass any judgement on Nash, he's probably still reading the bio's for his players.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> 
> So after picking me apart, you have the same feeling about their intentions anyway? Why did you bother? I did say the use or non-use of the Sabonis will be the key signal.


Your argument was, IMO, flawed and I don't think that what you're complaining about is very well established based on what's happened this summer. 

I do NOT think that atrophy is their intent. It's just my fear.

Like I do NOT think there will be a nuclear war in my lifetime, but it's a fear.



> What is so interesting about a post that only points out the obvious of what has already occured? I am posting a prediction here.


You're complaining. Which is cool.

But you can't complain, have people disagree with you on it, and then say that it's just a prediction. Because otherwise this board would be filled with people belly-aching about what they think MIGHT happen (rather than people belly-aching about things they perceived have happened).

Ed O.


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Kobe vs. His Accuser

and

Old Blazer Regime vs. New Blazer Regime


Correlations can be drawn.


I agree with Draco, though. It's too stinkin' early to form any solid or meaningful conclusions.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> and in the long run we are all dead. In the long run the Rose Garden turns into a masoleum.


Ladies and gentlemen, John Maynard Keynes.

Are you saying that PR actions are NOT taken with the long run in mind? 

In the short run, PR problems haven't seemed to affect Portland at all. They still have a very high attendance rate. They still are the only game in town.

They're affecting the value of their product in the long run by alienating fans and advertisers. I don't think that losing Scottie and Sabonis will hurt the Blazers in the long run, which is the whole point of being more PR-conscious.



> They made a public statement. There have been lots of changes and lots of activity. Yet so far nothing to address what they claimed was a top priority for them. They need to do something this summer. Not later. They don't have to do it all at once, but there has to be a start. So far the team has actually gone backwards. The net total character of the team has fallen significantly.


Another stated goal (actually one that was more clearly articulated, IMO) was the financial one--reduce the team payroll and the team's operating loss generally. The team has made a lot of progress there (shaving off about 20% of their salary from last year) without even losing Sabas's contract.

As far as net character goes: it's a matter of opinion. Daniels was traded by the Spurs to the Blazers because of his locker-room issues. Pippen has spent the last few years complaining about the front office. I'm not sure that the character of the team has been lowered by the loss of these two players. Of course, the definition of "character" is the key, and that's a pretty hard thing to nail down.



> Punishing players more harshly when they slip up unfortunately impeds your first critera "You win basketball games", which is actually not a valid criteria. The Blazer have been winning games, and it did little to quell the festering resentment and upset by some of the fans and media toward the team.


The Blazers haven't made it out of the first round in 3 years. They're winning basketball games, but not at the level that shuts people up about character issues.

Re-signing Pippen and Daniels and keeping Sabonis would have helped (perhaps) in the short run by showing some fans that the team is interested in keeping "good" guys, but in the long run it would weigh the team down with salaries that aren't really commensurate with their on-court contributions... and this overpayment would harm the Blazers' chances of winning and therefore the view of the team and organization by the city and media.

As far as punishing players more harshly being at odds with winning basketball games: of course it is. The Blazers, like all teams, must operate at cross-purposes: get good players, but don't spend too much... get talent, but don't get troublemakers... win now, but build for the future.

The team, IMO, will crack down on players who mess up even if it costs them on the court because they know that failing to crack down will cause more trouble than winning games will be able to fix.



> Don't confuse the Blazer's stated criteria with mine. You are preaching to the choir. I don't wan't Bonzi or Rasheed going for anything less than Kevin Garnett, which means they stay if I had anything to do with it. I do want Damon gone - but I never wanted him on the team in the first place. Imagine how I feel now. Ruben needs to go, as his bench contributions are overshadowed by his off-court issues.


I don't really understand what your rush is, then. If you don't want to trade our key players for less-than-full-value, why are you so frustrated by the lack of moves to this point?

Ed O.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Blazer Ringbearer</b>!
> When did anyone say anything about becoming (they weren't considered one last year) a contender?


It is all about the attempt by ownership and management to stay or become a contender. It is vastly harder to be a contender if you don't give 100% to the effort and make it your top priority.



> It sounds like you've set your expectations way too high, if you expected them to drop payroll, get boy scouts, AND contend for a title all in one offseason... no wait, you expected that to be accomplished a WEEK after free agents could begin signing contracts...


 My only expectations are for the team to work as hard as possible to field a contender. I don't care about boy scouts, nor do I care about dropping payroll. Those are both new criteria set by Paul Allen earlier this summer. Please don't confuse us. Let me repeat, *I want the best players possible on the team*. That is my expectation. I expect I won't get it.

As for the timing issue, I am making a prediction, based on all that has happened so far this summer, that the priorities of the Blazers organazation has changed - and for the worse from my perspective. Their priorities used to be:

1) 100% effort to win title
2) uhhh... 100% effort to win title
3) you get the point

The new stated priorities are:

1a) Improve character of team/make city proud
1b) Still win games
1c) Player payroll be reduced to sane level

I think their real priorities are:

1) Player payroll reduced a.s.a.p., short of gutting team. 
1a) Play the players on guaranteed contracts. Stop stockpiling redundant talent.
2) Budgets reduced at all operation levels
3) Shake up the organization
4) Crack down on knuckleheads to placate vocal fans/media, even if it hurts team.
5) Oh yeah, wouldn't it be cool if we won too? Maybe we will get lucky and stumble into a great season like Detroit last year.



> There is still an incredible amount of talent on this team, even with the loss of these players. What will hopefully be accomplished this offseason will be somewhat of a redistribution of that talent to come up with a rotation with clearly defined roles and lose a problem player or two...


Ah....no. No superstar. No all-stars. The team currently has no starting quality point guard, small forward (Bonzi is a 2) or center (DD is fine at Center defensively, but is a bad offensive player. Sabonis as a backup was perfect). What has set the Blazers apart was vaunted depth. They don't have it anymore. It's gone. History. So, we have a Blazer team without much depth, woefully thin at key positions, and with no stars. Where is the incredible amount of talent? It is good talent. Better than most teams. But not an "incredable amount". 

Course, this could change. They could still trade the Sabonis contract. Jeff mentioned Sabonis and Damon to Indy for Croshere, Mercer and Harrington (yes!) or Bender (no!). If this deal goes down, ignore everything I have said. It proves Allen is still willing to lose money (if less than recently) to field a solid team. We get our depth back, dump the evil Mouse, obtain a starting SF, a shooter for the bench, and the ability to move DA or Bonzi for a PG or C. 



> I still see the Blazers making the playoffs with an outside shot at homecourt, which they didn't even get last season. Either way, by working with a set rotation and getting lots of minutes for youngsters they would be much improved the following season. Qyntel and Randolph could very well have a breakout year.


 Well I am so glad you are confident that losing two key contributors (future Hall of Famers at that), without replacement will cause the team to magically improve. I am not so sure. Q and Zach could be good someday, but both are very weak defenders. They may well be fun to watch, but I don't see big minutes for either or both leading to more wins, when you give up as many points as you put in. They need time.



> And yes, I think you are being impatient. The GM was just hired. The only thing he has done so far was decide Qyntel over Pippen. That says to me that he is interested in contending in the future, as opposed to trying the same thing that didn't work last season. He's pointing to mid-August for his trade(s), let's see what he has up his sleeve before we start riding his ***.


 I am not riding Nash's ***. Why would I? He just got here. It is what I now fear to be the direction of the organization as set by the owner that I am "riding".


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ABM</b>!
> I agree with Draco, though. It's too stinkin' early to form any solid or meaningful conclusions.


Yes. True. But not too early to develop sinking feelings in the pit of your stomach. :uhoh: :hurl:


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Is the glass half-empy, or half-full?

Well, I guess that depends on if you're gonna take a another drink or add more liquid.

Currently, it's just sitting there.

tic-toc..............


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

What do you guys think of JR's "proposed"lineup?

*PG:* Anderson, McInnis, FA Point Guard
*SG:* Wells, Mercer, Charles Smith
*SF:* Wallace, Woods, Croshere
*PF:* Randolph, Outlaw
*C:* Davis, Camby, Boumtje Boumtje

Fairly action-packed, I think. Certainly not a dropoff from last year's team - along with a much lower payroll.

Hmmmm........I wonder if DA could _really_ play Point.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> As far as net character goes: it's a matter of opinion. Daniels was traded by the Spurs to the Blazers because of his locker-room issues. Pippen has spent the last few years complaining about the front office. I'm not sure that the character of the team has been lowered by the loss of these two players. Of course, the definition of "character" is the key, and that's a pretty hard thing to nail down.


You sure like to go out on a limb to prove your points, don't you? Daniels and Pippen (and Sabas) were not saints, but were positives for the team, no matter how you try to spin it.

Bottom line on this is the Blazers allowed their PR problems to fester with inadequate response for too long. They didn't want over-concern for it to get in the way of fielding the best team on the floor. They now need to act more aggressively and proactively than they would have been able to get away with in years past. They will fail if they attempt to rehab their PR and image and build back lost goodwill if they do it the "easy" way. And now that Pippen and Sabas are gone, the Blazer's are essentially forced to do whatever it takes to make sure Damon and Ruben aren't in training camp. Anything less will further erode goodwill.

The Blazers have been playing the "long-term" game for years - so many years that - surprise - "long-term" has become now. Action is needed now. Not later. Rehabbing will take a long time. They will need a long-term perspective. But I can't understand why you think they will be able to get away with waiting to START the process. It must start NOW. Not next year or the year after, or only in response to yet another incident.




> I don't really understand what your rush is, then. If you don't want to trade our key players for less-than-full-value, why are you so frustrated by the lack of moves to this point?
> 
> Ed O.


The frustration is all about this:

delayed anger over moves Trader Bob made that I disagreed with at the time, but thought could be overcome with the deep pockets of Allen.

Suddenly Allen is changing his tune. Now those "whoops" moves aren't mere inconveniences - they are weights on the team, holding it down.

The trade and contract extension for Damon. Never wanted him. Thought his contract was absurd at the time. It seems 5 times worse today.

The Brian Grant for Shawn Kemp trade. I had watched Kemp play in several Cavs games his last couple of seasons there. I knew then he had lost it, and I wanted no part of his monster contract. He had become a horrible player, though his inflated stats fooled some. He mostly played defense with his hands. Was a foul magnet. Had become slow. Without knowing about a drug problem, I couldn't fathom his desire for this has-been.

And just in general, stockpiling athletic talent, regardless of how that fits into the team as a position or a role. Fine when money is no object. No so good if the team does a 180.

Trader Bobs reckless spending habits didn't make me upset until now. I wasn't paying the bill, why should I care? Now, the remnants of those bad decisions will hurt the team I follow.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ABM</b>!
> What do you guys think of JR's "proposed"lineup?
> 
> *PG:* Anderson, McInnis, FA Point Guard
> ...


Gee. I hope we don't trade with Indy and don't get Harrington or at least Bender.

If Derek could have played PG, he would have by now. But, I would try it anyway, hoping an entire season there would do the trick. Anything to keep Damon off the floor.

How did we get Camby?


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> 
> Trader Bobs reckless spending habits didn't make me upset until now. I wasn't paying the bill, why should I care? Now, the remnants of those bad decisions will hurt the team I follow.


How? I fail to see why you think the team is failing to act based on the current payroll.

Are you talking about not re-signing Daniels? He was, what, the 5th guard on the team?

Are you talking about not re-signing Pippen, who will be 38 by the time the season starts and has been picking on Paul Allen's management style for some time?

Are you talking about not keeping Sabonis around, in spite of the fact that he's at an advanced age and didn't play very significant minutes last year?

Are you talking about not getting Payton? Missing out on Gary Payton is a bummer, for sure, but the only way that the team would have paid his price would be to overpay the way that the team has been willing to in the past... if you think Whitsitt has made errors in the past based on overpaying players, I don't think it's reasonable to have the team only overpay when you or I agree with the overpayment.

I don't see what you think the current financial situation has cost the team so far this summer.

Ed O.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> How? I fail to see why you think the team is failing to act based on the current payroll.
> ...


Do you just like being argumentative? I know you already know the answer to this.

My entire series of posts is predicated on the assumption they will pocket Sabas savings and will not use the full MLE to lure a good FA. If the Blazer's turn Sabas contract into something good, disregard most of what I have said. Ok.

If they don't, however, this is what has occured this summer:

88 Blazer personnel lost their jobs. This will effect the experience of dealing with the Blazers and the events at the Rose Garden. I believe that in part this occured due to Trader Bob's wasteful spending. Now it impacts me.

Sabas and Pippen, both key contributors to the success of the Blazer's team last season, walk without replacements. The main purpose being to effect a large reduction of overall salary. Without a change in financial policy or without the absurd contracts of Damon and Kemp, either those players would have been retained, or they could have been part of trades for more suitable (and younger) replacements.

The Blazers need to work hard to IMPROVE their roster, as they weren't good enough last season WITH Scottie and Sabas. Arguing that they are old and wouldn't have helped that much doesn't make me feel better. I fear the huge payroll and the hinderance of being PR focused is a nasty double whammy that is having and will have a significant impact on the Blazers ability to re-stock the roster and make improvements.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

There are a lot of feelings and emotions going around by all of us...

the one things that stood out for me, was the team salary
http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43660&forumid=14

If indeed Sabas retires out right we save almost $85 mill in salary and luxury taxes.. if my numbers are close.. which I think they are

saving millions and millions is a priority... no question... when you stop and think about it.... its real.... for sure... even to Mr. Allen...

I can understand that.. especially if it was my money... justbecause he has billions does not mean he does not feel it. It might be proportional to us loosing 1% or more of all of our assets..


Every team has good and bad players... we are just the lucky ones to make the national news a lot lately... its actually nice this summer to see other teams make the headlines too. It would have been nice for Damon to have not made it...



With that said... I would be quite happy to get rid of some of our trouble makers. But I agree, you simply can not get rid of everyone who causes a problem... if we got rid of 3 or 4 of the 5 problems.. I would be happy. And I think its a step in the right direction... is there PR involved.. yes...

Masbee and Ed have brought up a lot of issues.. its just not easy. And for every person who loves the Blazers, there is probably a different opinion. Its an opinion, its subjective... we all have our favorites, and we all have an idea in which way the team should go. 

Pippen is getting old... and hurt and not as good. but he still has lots of positives in him left... Chicago and other teams still thought so..

Daniels was not a PG for us, good talent, great charecter, and I enjoyed his hustle...

Sabas.... its just painful to see him go.. I wanted to see him in his prime in a Blazer uniform... but it was not in the cards

A lot relates to expectations. I guess we may hold out for hope that at a snap of the finger we can transform this team into a championship contender. But its just not going to happen. retaining parts of teams who showed glimpses of brilliance is great, but maybe not all that pratical. I never wanted Jermaine or Brian Grant to leave in recent years.. but you know what.. we made another run later on... we have been competitive..

and yes, we got beat by 4 world champions in the last 5 years in the playoffs... this year it ended.. now lets move onward... 


Nash seems to be a good thinker, and I am sure he is.. he communicates well. I am wondering if he is so methodical and logical in his analysis and execution, that everyone sees him coming. I wonder if he reacts too late... and other teams and FA's are ahead of where he should be. He has a varied record of experiences.. I just hope he can pull off some good adjustments without a total rebuild. It seems the coaches are high on our youth and want to give them experience. I liked very much what Phoenix did for Amare Stoudamire last year... essentially throwing him to the dogs.. and making him fight..

it will be a roll of the dice... it will be fun to see what our team is like by the fall of 2004, Its hard to be patient but I think we have a good team in Patterson and Nash...


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## Peaceman (Jan 15, 2003)

Masbee, If you feel that things are going to slow in the way of change, get active. I had 21 of my 27 employees write letters about not buying tickets until they clean up there image and move poor rolemodels like Sheed. Damon, and Patterson. Send weekly emails, talk to your friends and have them write or Email.

I'll judge the summer after September. IMO Sheed is the core problem and is a bad influence on the lockroom. If he leaves as well as PAtterson, I can wait on Damon. His trade value is so low, it would be difficult.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

good one.... :banana:


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## Tommyboy (Jan 3, 2003)

all this news is good news to me. I hope we suck next year and make the lottery and get the #1 pick.


I will be rooting for this team in every hard earned loss.

much more so than last year when we reached the top of the embarassment ladder.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Schilly</b>!
> Hey come on we all screamed for Whitsitts head...


Well, not all of us. I was fine w/ Ol' Bob.

barfo


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> If indeed Sabas retires out right we save almost $85 mill in salary and luxury taxes.. if my numbers are close.. which I think they are


$85 million? Man, that's an awful lot for Sabas... 

barfo


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Peaceman</b>!
> Masbee, If you feel that things are going to slow in the way of change, get active. I had 21 of my 27 employees write letters about not buying tickets until they clean up there image and move poor rolemodels like Sheed. Damon, and Patterson.


Uhm, did they mean it? Did those 21 purchase tickets before? Will they purchase if the trades you want happen? Or are you just jerking your employees around? Why not just write 21 (or 21,000) letters yourself and sign phony names to them?

barfo


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

Since there isn't a whole lot going on to talk about, I revive for your viewing pleasure an old thread at the very beginning of the Nash administration.

I responded to a Jeff Robertson article (rant really) with a series of rant posts on Blazer Management. Boy was I in a bad mood.

I was very upset with how their actions to that time contradicted their promises.

My points may have lacked coherence, but I was very upset with what they had done and not done to that point. I just knew that trying to pull the team in three directions at once was a recipie for failure. And I could see that they were failing to take the proper steps that would allow them to at least do a good job with 2 of the 3 goals.

Sometimes your first reactions are your best ones. With the benefit of hindsight we now know that the Blazers have failed to completely accomplish any three of their stated goals.

EdO has fun picking my posts apart item by item. Typical man. My posts were more about the feelings and the emotions and the impending doom that envelopes you when you instinctively feel something bad is happening. 

Like that horrific knot in your stomach that you get when you realize (with about a 90% certainty) that you will soon get a Dear John or Jane letter. We, the Blazer fans, were not given the courtesy of that letter until this summer. Just strung along, while the Blazers have been having a string of affairs with their Money Men. "No my darling Winning, I still love you. You are the only one for me."

Finally, they admit infidelity, say they are dumping Winning entirely, and are shacking up with Youth. Yeah.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

I don't even remember arguing with you about this, Masbee. I'm glad that the bitter emnity that was sowed that day hasn't been reaped. 

Also, for people who might think me to be a knee-jerk Nash basher... this proves that I was not only willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but to argue with one of my favorite posters over it.

In fact, I think that I was willing to give Nash the benefit of the doubt for almost another year after this thread popped up.

Ed O.


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