# Jay Williams



## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

I heard from people on certain boards here and they said that Jay Williams is rehabbing from his injury quicker than expected. This guy is a former #2 overall pick and may still have potential to be great. And we did trade Frank Williams. I dont know about you but i dont see jamison brewer being the backup pointguard if J-Craw starts at offguard like i assume he will. Especially if Houston's nagging injuries keep nagging our 92 million dollar man. I think this would realy help our team for the playoffs, and the future. GOOD OR BAD IDEA?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Williams already said he would give the Bulls the first shot at signing him, and if they decline he'd be more likely to go to a team that needs a PG, not a team that is going to make him split time with Jamal Crawford, Jamison Brewer, and Moochie Norris. And by time, we mean the 10 minutes or so Marbury will be sitting.

Why go to NY when other teams in the Central need PGs? Indiana needs a backup, Milwuakee needs a backup (since Ford's recovery is anything but a sure thing), even Detroit could probably use a backup. He could probably start for Charlotte. Why would he want to come to a team stacked with guards? And why would the Knicks want to waste another roster spot on a talented guard, instead of seeking a big man? I'd rather bring in Sean Rooks or Kevin Willis than add another big name with no game left.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

kevin willis LMFAO, and as for jay williams having no game left we do not know this yet! as for jamison brewer and moochie norris LMFAO!!!!!! they suck dude........ Can't we trade some of those dudes for bigs bro?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> kevin willis LMFAO, and as for jay williams having no game left we do not know this yet! as for jamison brewer and moochie norris LMFAO!!!!!! they suck dude........


Jay Will sucked when he was healthy, so what's your point? Did DerMarr Johnson improve after his injury? No. Jay-Will's injury was even worse, so the odds of him returning to his rookie season form are iffy at best.

I'd rather take a role player like Brewer over a guy that in the end we'd just be developing for another team. If he got good again, you think there's a chance in hell he'd want to play behind Marbury, Houston, and Crawford? You still haven't answered that question.



> Can't we trade some of those dudes for bigs bro?


No, they don't have trade value. Neither does Jay-Will for that matter. The only big man Norris would bring back is an overpaid one like Evan Eschmeyer, and the only big man Brewer would bring back is a scrub making less than a million like he is.

And why are you saying trade them for a big man, when you could just as easily sign Keon Clark?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Jay Will on the Knicks is a pipedream. 

A team like Charlotte, Atlanta, the LA Lakers and Houston come to mind as teams that could use a good PG if he can prove to be healthy.

A team like the Knicks with Crawford and Marbury have no PT for him.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Jay Will sucked when he was healthy



that is a bit of an exaggeration.not alot..but a definite one..keep in mind he "sucked" within the framework of the triangle offense.Ask Mr payton about that

Unfortunetly you are right about Jwill returning to his prior game..He may be 85% back,but its that last 15 that made him special and a n awesome athlete.Without it,hes plain old ordinairy..

Did you read whereArtest said Brewer is the Pacers best point guard..which isnt saying much


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

J-Will might come back but it doesn't mean he should expect to land a primo starting spot anywhere.

Bobby Hurley came back too, but he didn't exactly return to form.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

we can sign clark for the lle or the rest of the mle, and then give jwill whatever we have left. Jwill would be our first backup point guard. I see it like this

sg- crawford houston marbury
pg- marbury jwill brewer/moochie.


so jwill would be the backup behind marbury and moochie and jamison can fight for third pg honors, if you wanna call it that.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

who needs keon clark when we just signed Bruno Sundv..again


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

That's okay, he's European. He must be fundamentally sound.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

bruno was cut by his cba team last season. i think isiahs gone dilusional with his last two signings


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Artest says Brewer is the man


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Yeah but he and Brewer were apparently best buddies. I wouldn't put too much stock in his words, he's probably just pissed he and his pals may be on the trade block.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Bruno is the tallest player on the Knicks (7'2, the only player over 7 feet), and everyone knows Isiah likes to stick with his favorites.

Sundov is young at least (entered league at 18, now 23). He's a really poor mans Doleac. Most importantly, he doesn't take up MLE space, so they can still get Clark.

C Thomas
PF Baker
SF Thomas
SG Houston
PG Marbury
Bench
SG Crawford
SF Penny
C Mohammed
PF Williams
SG Anderson
PF Sweetney
PG Norris
IR
PG Brewer
SF Ariza
C Sundov

At least the IR is set. Since the Suns are Clark's former team, and need size (specifically a center) perhaps they could swap Mohammed for Clark. 

Or...

Shawn Marion 11.3 million (69 over next 5 seasons)
Tim Thomas 12.3 million (26 over next 2 seasons)

If the Suns are looking to get out of Marion's deal (since they seem committed to JJ and at SF for the future), Tim Thomas and Mike Sweetney would probably make sense. Thomas and Mohammed (5.2 million, 10 over 2 years) would work if they want to bring in Clark as well, and Nazr does fill a need for them..

Still, I would hope that the Suns could get more than Tim Thomas in a deal for Marion (Ray Allen, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Eddie Jones, the usual names).


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

thomas for marion is really a huge pipe-dream. If zeke actually pulls that off id be so happy it wouldnt even be funny!! pipe-dream tho


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Tim Thomas and Mike Sweetney would probably make sense


Too much..do you love marion or hate TT and not a big fan of Sweetneys??


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I really want to see Sweetney starting at power foward


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

dude tt and someone like baker or sweetney PREFIEREBLY BAKER would be a steal for us


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

TT and sweetney is too much..in my mind you are giving up 2 starters for one,and sweetney is the guy i like....

Marion is super talented,but i am very high on sweetney..Other than Vin,and thats a big if,we have no post up players..NONE..


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> I really want to see Sweetney starting at power foward


sweetney is the KING of the tip in...


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

dude, marion is all-star type and will be an allstar in the east. That deal would be monster for the knicks!


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

You're right. Giving up two average starters (Thomas and Sweetney) for an all-star is a lame idea.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> You're right. Giving up two average starters (Thomas and Sweetney) for an all-star is a lame idea.


i see you are backwhere you left off..

I ,unlike you am stating that if sweetney starts or plays apx 30 minutes per,he will average 12 points and 11 boards...

Hopefully,we can have this as part of the pool....

And I think TT wil average 17 and 7 this year...So i am not dying to trade for marions monster contract that has 5 years left..

And,hopefully you will participate in the pool and go on the record..you are a squerily one:yes:


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

if we trade for marion, wouldnt we just be the phoenix suns who sucked *** with stephon(with amare injured)?

the real question is, can we win a championship with marion? i doubt it. id rather let tt's contract expire or trade his massive expiring contract next offseason for a disgruntled star on a bad team looking to rebuild


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## guyinabox (Sep 4, 2004)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Tim Thomas averagin 7 rebounds??? He's atleast the worst rebounder in the NBA I'm going to make a poll in the NBA room and we'll see

:laugh: Tim Thomas 16 - 5 AT BEST please thsi guy is an unederachiever with no heart


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:laugh: Tinsley is a great point guard. Unlike Marbury. Marbury HAS to have the ball to be effective, so does Crawford. So, pretty much one of them is gonna suck. And that will most likely be Crawford.

BFreak.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Tinsley is a great point guard. Unlike Marbury. Marbury HAS to have the ball to be effective, so does Crawford. So, pretty much one of them is gonna suck. And that will most likely be Crawford.


coming from a fan of the only team who makes worse moves than the knicks,ill take that statement for what its worth...pure garbage...

Nice signing of Darius Miles...you guys outbid yourselves,and give my regards to randolph before hes locked up..


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

This is TIMS year........:upset:


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> id rather let tt's contract expire or trade his massive expiring contract next offseason for a disgruntled star on a bad team looking to rebuild


totally agree.. we can not keep on taking on these massive contracts and trading away youth,unless its a Shaq type deal..

Marions contract is Too long,too much


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## guyinabox (Sep 4, 2004)

Marion is one of the best SF on earth he's young...he's probably a top 5 all around player in the NBA He'll be automatically the best rebounder on this team....too long? You guys act like its Felton Spencer with a 7 year deal


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> coming from a fan of the only team who makes worse moves than the knicks,ill take that statement for what its worth...pure garbage...
> ...


:laugh: What ever dude. Blazers make much better moves then the Knicks. Nash came in, wanted Cap space and he got 2 Huge expiring contracts. And Darius Miles is only getting paid 6 mill. a year. In 1-2 years He'll be better than any player on the Knicks except maybe Marbury.

All I said in my first post is true, Marbury or Crawford is gonna suck this year. Crawford needs the ball, Marbury needs the ball. It's not hard to understand. I don't know why I was attacked for it.

And Zach also isn't getting locked up.

Your are a complete dumbass, I am sorry but post about something you know.

Dip****.

BFreak.


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> coming from a fan of the only team who makes worse moves than the knicks,ill take that statement for what its worth...pure garbage...
> ...


I didn't sat Tinsley was the better player, I said he was the better POINT GUARD. Marbury is more of a shoot-first, pass-second point guard. Don't get me wrong, Marbury is an all-star, but Tinsley is a much better point guard.

BFreak.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Your are a complete dumbass, I am sorry but post about something you know.


lets see,mr mr rocket scientist....

from the Portland paers



> The Trail Blazers secured their future at small forward on Wednesday, signing 22-year-old Darius Miles to a six-year, $48 million contract that left Miles grinning at his good fortune.


from you,mr genius



> Darius Miles is only getting paid 6 mill. a year


lets go real slow..Darius Miles is getting 48 million.He signed a six year contract...

48 divided by 6 is how much????? According to you,its 6 

Cmon B freak,you expect me to take a guy seriously,who either can not read,or do simple math???:no:


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> lets see,mr mr rocket scientist....
> ...


:laugh: Sorry, its the summer. I know thats 8 million, but it starts off at 6 mill, and goes up, the max he is getting is 11 mill. Still better than 1/2 the contracts on the Knicks..

BFreak.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Marion is one of the best SF on earth he's young...he's probably a top 5 all around player in the NBA He'll be automatically the best rebounder on this team....too long? You guys act like its Felton Spencer with a 7 year deal


I agree he is super talented..Give them TT,give them Naz ,but Sweetney is our only low post presence..unless baker can turn back time...


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

wow thats a terrible contract. thats like tim thomas' contract, except miles sucks.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Marion is a nice player, I'd like to have him. Because of his defense and rebounding he's a better all round player than TT. But I wouldn't jump at the opportunity to trade TT + Sweeteny for him. Here are a few reasons why:

1) Whatever one's feelings about TT, at his worst he's an average SF, while at his best he can be top tier. I consider lhis time with us so far to be less than his best but still above average.

2) Lenny wants an athletic PF, TT can play some time there. As a tweener he's useful in that way. Could Marion, at 6'7, play PF just as well? I don't know, maybe, he's as good leaper and more aggressive, but I've never seen it.

3) I didn't see a lot of the Suns with Marbury, but I watched a lot of the Olympics, and I did not see a lot of chemistry between Marion and Marbury. Not as much as Marbury and Van Horn, and not even as much as between Marbury and TT. Now that's not to say I think TT would have been better than Marion over there, I think Marion played well. I'm just saying I don't see Marion adding a lot of wins to this team.

Now if someone (Rashidi?) wants to tell me that Marion is a better player than Steph, and we should build around him rather than Steph, and we should take Marion and run the point through Crawford (or Brewer or Barrett, gasp), then try to trade Steph for another all star calibre player to work with Marion (Davis, Carter?) that's a conversation worth having, but a different conversation than this one.

4) We haven't even begun to see what Sweetney can do. Will he ever be a top tier PF? I doubt it, but as a poor mans Elton Brand he could be a very useful role player. Last year, while out of shape, in limited minutes, and while recovering through depression from the loss of a parent, his per 48 offensive rebounds were up there right behind Shaq. And with all the weight, he still exhibited surprising swiftness and grace in his offensive moves around the basket. With his new confidence and conditioning we might just have a nice keeper. All we gotta do is start putting extinguishing cigarettes on his forehead to make him mean. 

5) If TT works out for us, great, we can probably resign him cheaper in '06. If not we might score by trading his expiring contract. Perhaps we'd gat a nice player for it, or more likely, an average role player along with a draft pick or two. By that time Ariza might be making some waves. In that optimistic scenario, rather than just Marion and a weak spot at PF (an older KT or Baker?), we'd have an energetic Ariza (a poor man's Marion), a strong azz Sweetney, and some draft picks. I personally wouldn't mind playing the poor man game for a while. Lets not jump at every big name max contract player we can lay our paws on. Lets see who some of our guys are before we rush for a marquee name. It wouldn't hurt this franchise to drop some fat off it's payroll.

Bottom line, while Phoenix might puke at the thought of trading Marion for TT + Sweetney, that still doesn't make it a smart move for us "at this time." I still think the Knicks have a decent (albeit specilative) youthful core in Marbury, Crawford, TT, Ariza and Sweetney. I think we need to give them a full year to see what they can do together. If they don't perform to expectations we'll at least have a better idea of why, and who needs to go. Right now I'm not convinced that TT is our weakest link, and that SF is the position we most need to upgrade. Only time will tell though.

If the trade were made I wouldn't hate it, but I would feel sad to see those guys go, and I wouldn't expect many more wins from it.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

dude tim thomas MUCH LIKE VAN HORN underacheived all his life! Marion is a superstar, and allstar and TIM ISN'T!. truthfully although i like sweetney we must admit that we do have a glut at the big positions and this deal is definetly well worth it to us.... Phoenix however will pass this deal up because think about this AMARE ALREADY PLAYS PF, so mike really wont get great minutes over there iether and he is moving to a different coast so we dont really have to worrry about him exploding against us. I think it is a win-win situation for us here.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

and furthermore to hear that knicks fans are against this deal is rather shocking to me


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

cause knick fans are sick of change. Tim didnt even play half a season with us yet,neither did keith. Whats next, were gonna bring up Crawford trades when he hasnt even played one game for us?

im sick of trading our entire team every other month.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>knicksfan</b>!
> and furthermore to hear that knicks fans are against this deal is rather shocking to me


You make "this deal" sound so significant. It's not a real rumor, just something tossed out by Rashidi.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

I know, but it is a historic occasion though  ...............


THE FIRST EVER GOOD DEAL PROPOSED BY RASHIDI THAT WILL OVERWHELMINGLY HELP THE KNICKS!

this is definetly a great first on this forum!


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Blazer Freak</b>!
> :laugh: What ever dude. Blazers make much better moves then the Knicks. Nash came in, wanted Cap space and he got 2 Huge expiring contracts. And Darius Miles is only getting paid 6 mill. a year. In 1-2 years He'll be better than any player on the Knicks except maybe Marbury.
> 
> All I said in my first post is true, Marbury or Crawford is gonna suck this year. Crawford needs the ball, Marbury needs the ball. It's not hard to understand. I don't know why I was attacked for it.
> ...



I guess we are right back to baiting aren't we??  


hey but i must admit even tho the knicks are my favorite team, the blazers are my second favorite! GO SEBASTIAN TELFAIR!


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

yeah and they gave omar a chance last year...and they drafted erick barkley


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> I guess we are right back to baiting aren't we??


The guys walks in here,running his mouth saying either crawford or marbury will suck...Completely off topic,and somewhat ironic as the Blazers cant even get Abdul Rahim and Randolph on the floor together...

Then he tells me what a bargain D miles is at 6 per year when hes getting eight.... not too mention the Blazers were the only ones interested in him and they out bid themselves


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> The guys walks in here,running his mouth saying either crawford or marbury will suck...Completely off topic,and somewhat ironic as the Blazers cant even get Abdul Rahim and Randolph on the floor together...
> ...



in that case its a double-bait


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

The Blazer fans are the one group that shoudnt say a word about ANYONE....Yeah,we have some nasty contracts,but at least our players dont have rap sheets or constant drug violations..


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

If only we could lock up the Celtics, Raptors and Blazers trollers in a room until they annihilate each other.

Or stick em in a room and send KBF in there to annihilate them all...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> If only we could lock up the Celtics, Raptors and Blazers trollers in a room until they annihilate each other.


These trollers are unbelievable....The topic is J williams,I am addressing rashidi and talking how the triangle is not a point guards dream,and this freak starts saying either Starbury or JC will suck this year...

Not to mention,they havent played one game together and the guy is a Blazer fan.....Those guys should shut the #$%^ up....The Blazers are the largest embarrasment to the NBA..period....

We need KBF back.....

KBF,suck it up,apologise,and come on back!!!!!!!!!!


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> The guys walks in here,running his mouth saying either crawford or marbury will suck...Completely off topic,and somewhat ironic as the Blazers cant even get Abdul Rahim and Randolph on the floor together...
> ...


All I said was the truth. So your saying that JCraw and Marbury both don't need the ball to be effective? Thats all I was saying. Marbury is a superstar, I know that. I'm just saying that both of those players need the ball to be effective, now maybe Crawford worked on his J this summer, and Marbury can just dish it out to him, but as of last year, Crawford needed the ball to be effective, and so does Marbury. So I said one of them will have a horrible year, and that will most likely be Crawford, because Marbury is the better player. 

I'm sorry if I wrote it wrong but thats what I was trying too say. Now, I wasn't trying too bait, just saying what I thought would happen. It is the USA and there's something called free speech here, so just because I said something bad about a Knick player doesn't mean I'm a hater. 

Also, if you guys think DMiles is overpaid, whats Crawford making again? And, I'm sorry if I mismultiplied, jesus, I'm not that perfect.

BFreak.

PS: Sorry again.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

There are definitely possible issues there, but I'm not terrified yet. I'm not familiar enough with Crawford yet so I wont comment too much on his nuances. But...

1) Marbury can catch and shoot 3 pointers.

2) Who gives a damn if Marbury's point production goes down if the team works. I don't want him to be our first scoring option anyway. Last year this team only worked when Marbury scored 25+ points or shot 50% (or whatever it was). That's an unrealistic burden for any payer to have to maintain.

3) While Houston can catch and shoot his money move is to take a dribble or two to the side to get a moments clear look at the hoop. I don't think Crawford needs a hell of a lot more than that. Kobe isn't a spot up shooter either. Both MJ and Pippen needed to dribble to be effective too, they worked okay together.

4) While we desperately missed Houston's shooting last year we also missed another good ball handler and penetrator. That we'll be picking up in Crawford. When we used F-Will together with Marbury (last 2 playoff games) it worked quite well.

5) This team is still a work in progress. Right now this team is constructed around a *presumed* effective Houston. Without him we can be expected to struggle. Perimeter scorers will be added in time. Lenny has spoken of playing TT at the PF, opening up the possibility of someone like Sczerbiak at SF. (Sweetney at PF next year when TT is traded as an expiring contract?)

Etc.

The point is, yeah, like most teams the Knicks have some issues. I don't see anyone here in denial about that. We're all looking forward to the season to see how they play out.


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> There are definitely possible issues there, but I'm not terrified yet. I'm not familiar enough with Crawford yet so I wont comment too much on his nuances. But...
> 
> 1) Marbury can catch and shoot 3 pointers.
> ...


Yeah, I know every team has issues, I'm just saying that the Knicks definatly need to work something out...I mean, hell, Knicks will make the playoffs for sure this year, its just they could definatly have some chemistry problems.

BFreak.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Bfreak,i hear you..its a valid concern,but when there is a will there is a way..If Earl Montoe and Walt Frazier could make it work(Alfa,where are you),JC and marbury can as well....



You may be right,but You have to give them a chance...Thats all I was saying..

And i was just busting on you regarding the contract,though the Blazers did pull an H20 and outbid themselves....


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> Bfreak,i hear you..its a valid concern,but when there is a will there is a way..If Earl Montoe and Walt Frazier could make it work(Alfa,where are you),JC and marbury can as well....
> 
> 
> ...


I think thats the thing every fan is thinking, if they aren't a real Blazer fan. Miles wanted 9 mill. and Nash offered him a lot lower than he wanted so he was pissed. And the deal actually starts off at about 6 mill, then it slowly goes up, and ends at about 11 mill. in the 6th year. Good contract if he lives up too his potential. If I were you guys, I would personally just buy-out Houston's contract. Gives More PT to Craw. And just gives a lot of players more PT.

Just my :twocent:

BFreak.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Moochie, Shandon, Houston... they salaries of the guys we should buy out could fund another mid-east war...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> If I were you guys, I would personally just buy-out Houston's contract. Gives More PT to Craw. And just gives a lot of players more PT.


What makes you think H20 will be healthy enough to play significant minutes??

I would be shocked if his knees hold up the whole season


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*I'm here...*

.....just lurking and chuckling. I hate that BBall has become a game of specialists. I don't think its in the best interest of the game or to the success of teams. I liked old school ball in this regard....Guys were just guards...or forwards..or centers. All the guards were expected to be able to shoot, pass, and handle. All the forwards were supposed to be able to shoot and board. Centers needed to play de, board and score down low(at least). How well they did these things determined how good they were.

All the young guys have no idea how it was. They only have highlite reels to watch. Time was, that if you humiliated a guy and rubbed his face in it, you would likely pay next time. Do you remember the Hubie/Rory Sparrow, Knick-Celtic series with the "no lay-up "rule? You would not have seen the high flying exploits and face jobs you see today....lol. Actually scared me to watch break-aways.

I am looking forward to the season and having you rub my face in how you told me TT would be so great(or vice-versa). Once we get enough perimeter shooting (we have it if H2O is healthy) we can be good. I still want TT to be a PF and the Knicks trade for Wally to play SF..but I see I am alone in that. Oh, well...nothing new.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

*Re: I'm here...*

Alpha, Alpha, Alpha.... There you go again, over simplifying.



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> .....just lurking and chuckling. I hate that BBall has become a game of specialists. I don't think its in the best interest of the game or to the success of teams. I liked old school ball in this regard....Guys were just guards...or forwards..or centers. All the guards were expected to be able to shoot, pass, and handle. All the forwards were supposed to be able to shoot and board. Centers needed to play de, board and score down low(at least). How well they did these things determined how good they were.



Where is the line of demarcation between old school and new school?

How many PGs in the history of the game were better than Magic, Stockton, Isiah, Kidd?

How many SGs better than MJ, Kobe, Allen.

How many centers better than Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson?

How many forwards better than Webber, Duncan, Garnett, Malone?

That said, I agree fundamentals are on the decline, mostly because of players coming into the NBA so young and without college experience. Also the league expansion has diluted the talent pool. But better defense too has taken it's toll on offensive flow. And I'm not so sure the 3 pt line has been a great boon to the sport.



> All the young guys have no idea how it was. They only have highlite reels to watch. Time was, that if you humiliated a guy and rubbed his face in it, you would likely pay next time. Do you remember the Hubie/Rory Sparrow, Knick-Celtic series with the "no lay-up "rule? You would not have seen the high flying exploits and face jobs you see today....lol. Actually scared me to watch break-aways.


Was it really so much stronger than the Oakley/Mason Knicks, the play of the 90s that created the whole flagrant foul rules to protect players from getting injured from retribution?




> I still want TT to be a PF and the Knicks trade for Wally to play SF..but I see I am alone in that. Oh, well...nothing new.


Huh? Just a few posts up I listed this as a possible prescription for the Knicks:

"5) This team is still a work in progress. Right now this team is constructed around a *presumed* effective Houston. Without him we can be expected to struggle. Perimeter scorers will be added in time. Lenny has spoken of playing TT at the PF, opening up the possibility of someone like Sczerbiak at SF. (Sweetney at PF next year when TT is traded as an expiring contract?)"

I just thing we've shuffled the deck enough for now. Lets see how some of these guys perform before we decide who goes and who stays. Plus, next summer we'll have TT and Penny as expiring contracts, which means their trade value may go up as time goes by.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Oak,mase,Ewing,X,was as old school as it could be....They were sick,in particular Mase and X....

Alfa,you one major point that is well taken isnt on an individual basis,but on a team level.There is way more one on one play today than there was 20 years ago...And it shows in International ball...Our players need the ball,or "want" to display their skills.They dribble way too much.The ball is not moved around as effectively.Great team basketball,is pass more, dribble less..The Pistons are a throwback team..Good D,good fundamentals and good teamwork...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

How does a topic,"Jay Williams" get more posts than any other topic in the last few months..

He hasnt played for 2 years,isnt a Knick,and isnt about to become on


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Oak....*

First I want to say that as far as moving TT to the PF spot I beat you by MONTHS. I was in favor of that move and suggested it here before we were even thinking about Crawford, in an effort to garner more team speed and athleticism. I was very vocal here about it when the Wally rumor surfaced and was torched mercilessly. Next, as far as those guys being great pgs...well, Magic was not just a great PG, he was an outstanding all-around player, maybe the best ever. Stockton is definately old school and so isn't IT. Kidd is the only pure "PG" in that he has no real good perimeter game. He is an allstar in todays game but is no better passer, has less handle(its true) and is less a shooter than Ernie D. was. Kidd has better size and defensive skills plus he boards well for a guard. The centers you mentioned are all old scholl guys with the exception of Hakeem and he is the only center to play with true SF offensive skills. There have been plenty of guards playing the shooting spot that shot the ball better than all 3 of the guys you listed. Their forte to a man is getting to the basket...more of a DR J type with better ball handling. All would starve if left to score from the outside on a consistent basis

Garnett is the real only NEW AGE PF on your list....KM is old school as is Duncan..Webber is a combo old/new. As far a a line of delineation..there is no clear line. It is the same as evolution: what IS is different than what WAS but there is no clear cut place where it happened. It was gradual.

By the way....all those guys would have excelled in any age because what they did well, the did so well as to be unstoppable.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

alpha, see, I'm just not sure what we disagree on, if anything, on a player by player basis. I'm talking about guys who play today or are just recently retired and you call them old school, so do we agree or disagree? Magic played back then, but I think he's new school. Isiah was old school, but he's a scoring combo-guard which is very en vogue nowadays.

Todays guys model themselves on the likes of Dr J, Magic and Isiah, and who can blame them? It's true Magic may have been the single best player of all time. He's "no school", he's just a freak of nature, brilliant from rookie to retirement, could play every position on the floor. 

Nobody before him bedazzled like Dr J, and his highlights still stand up to the best of Jordan or anyone else. He wasn't a pure shooter. He was a decent rebounder and passer, but nothing spectacular. He got a lot of assists for a forward but you would too if you played with Moses Malone, Toney, and Cheeks. But nobody complained about his fundamentals, that's for sure.

Clyde was great defensive PG, but he was an anomaly. Tiny and Oscar weren't as good defensively as Kidd and Snow.

I'm rambling a bit. I guess I'm trying to find what we are discussing. I guess Truth is right, it's more about the style of play today, not enough teamwork. I buy that. That's partly due to the diluted talent pool. There aren't many teams with the talent like Dr J's Philly, Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics. Instead teams overpay one or two studs and make them carry the team. 

One product of todays NBA that I hate is the dunk. I mean a great dunk is as beautiful as any great play, but there is an undue fascination with it today, with sports shows dunk of the day and the like. And nothing kills the energy of a great dunk like slow motion, which is done to death. I'd much prefer to see a great pass, steal, buzzer beater, or best of all, a killer block. Nothing better than a shot being blasted into the stands or to a teammate for a break.

As for TT at PF. Yes you were sounding that trumpet long ago, and to be honest I'm not sure I'm down with it yet. I think he's perfect at SF, and I think Kurt is a pretty good fundamentals guy at PF. Sweetney too. If TT can outplay them at PF, fine, but I think it's taking his strengths away (3 pt range ball handling (for his size), and slashing) and exposing his weaknesses (contact and rebounding). I still like athleticism at the SF spot and pure shooting from the SG. If we were to get Wally I'd look to play him at the two. What then to do with Crawford? I don't know, I don't know his game well enough yet. Maybe trade him, maybe play him at the point and trade Marbury?

What's a better team (listed 1 thru 5)

Marbury, Crawford, Wally, TT, Nazr

or

Marbury, Wally, TT, Sweetney, Nazr?

I don't know...


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Don't really thinkwe disagree...*

By old school, I mean style of play and type of player. Well schooled fundamentally, game intelligent, well rounded positionally, and hard nosed...winning was all that mattered. What we see now are players more interested in the flamboyant. For them, style means something much different than it used to. Its about me and how I look, even while losing. I actually heard a couple of young streetballers say that they would rather lose pretty than win ugly. That is not old school. Tiny was a great offensive guard as you know but I think you underestimate the "big O's" defense. There were plenty of good defensive guards back then. JoJo White, Tom Newlin, Jerry West, Phil Chenier and tons more. I think the good Dr. did indeed usher in a new style. He refined what Connie and Spencer did and took it to a new level. I agree with the dunk. Seeing a guy do something on a fastbreak dunk does nothing for me. Give me the traffic facial or the soaring slamback, though...I love those.

I am not thinking that TT can actually play the PF...I just said I would love to see him there...I think he has the physical assets to be a dominator there, but not the heart (are you listening Truth?). I love WS' offensive game and his strength for the position (2-3) and so I would move guys around to use him. I think we are weak on the perimeter but with him and TT(I admit he is a good shooter) for consistent shooters and Marbury, Crawford, and TT's ability to drive and kick, I like that lineup as an offensive team. I also like Sweets, though, and would use him a lot of minutes. I would LOVE to see Wally on this team, though. I think the flexibility to do so many different things would be unnatural..lol.

Best scoring PF/center I have ever watched was Bob McAdoo. In todays game he would be a feature guy because of the style that is used now. The way he jumped, ran, and shot the ball, he would be a 30ppg player every year. Unstoppable.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I think I agree with you regarding TT..He certainly has the size to play power foward..If he doesnt come out with a major attitude this year,you and all his detractors will be right.....


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

That's true, truth, it's now or never for this guy.

If he doesn't bring it he'll die the slow death from foot-in-mouth disease.


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

> I'd rather bring in Sean Rooks or Kevin Willis than add another big name with no game left.


:laugh: :laugh:


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## Jermaniac Fan (Jul 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> Artest says Brewer is the man


really? i thought this is WNBA!


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

i cant wait for will to come back


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

If J makes it back (a really big if), he would be an excellent prototype for a Pax/Skiles system. If durability / conditioning was clearly settled, the Bulls would have new flexabillity with tradeable assets.

VERY BIG IF... 

But when you lose the #2 player in the draft for no return, all you can do is hope.


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## clownskull (Jun 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> bruno was cut by his cba team last season. i think isiahs gone dilusional with his last two signings


cut by his cba team last season? ouch!
he may well be the worst player in the nba. then there is the brewer sighning-wtf?
i am a pacer fan and look at these two guys who the pacers flushed down the toilet and can say to you guys that you will be scratching your heads as to why these two turkeys are on the team. i can only guess that isiah has been smoking ditchweed if he really thinks he has assembled a team which he descibed as being 2nd only to detroit in the east.


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## knicks235 (May 20, 2003)

knicks have 18 players on roster, obviously their will be cuts. Look at the team and its quite obvious brewew and bruno are outta here.who are the others? you decide


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

The Knicks have 15 players on the roster. Training camp invites don't have guaranteed deals.


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