# If Deng is good for the BULLS, why isn't Adam Morrison?



## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

What in the world does Luol provide that Adam Morrison can't?

One dribble, mid-range jumpers?

Less then stellar athletic ability?

ill-adviced passes?

Hmmmmmm...If people here like Luol Deng...Why in the world wouldn't you like Adam?

Seems as though he does everything Luol can do...BETTER

Just thinkin' out loud.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Some of the stuff Luol did last night against Minne, I've NEVER seen Adam Morrison do in a game.

The kid can SHOOT and he got alot of heart but overall, Luol's a better player than him. Morrison doesn't have much of an overall game.

We've all been hard on Deng this year, but when the offseason comes and he gets to work on his game and strengthening, he should REALLY improve and also greatly improve our team.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

smARTmouf said:


> What in the world does Luol provide that Adam Morrison can't?
> 
> One dribble, mid-range jumpers?
> 
> ...


That moustache is enough to rule out drafting him. Who does he think he is, some 80s player?


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Deng's got more length, to finish in the open court.

Deng might be a better rebounder, when his body fills out.

Deng is already and will continue to become a far superior defender, most importantly.

Morrison is going to be a better offensive talent from the second he sets foot in the league, it's true. He's got such a crazy quick release and can put up a shot in traffic like no one I've seen in recent history. Reminds me a lot of Wally Szczerbiak when he was at Miami of Ohio, but with more insanity. Wally also put up shots while getting pushed and hacked everywhere.

Morrison's size, quickness with the ball, and machine-gun release will make him even better than Wally (who, by the way, isn't really the player that he could have become, because of injuries in his early career).


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

smARTmouf said:


> What in the world does Luol provide that Adam Morrison can't?
> 
> One dribble, mid-range jumpers?
> 
> ...


You sold me.

When we land the #1 and #2 pick like everyone's been doing on their first try with the ESPN Lottery Machine, let's pick up Morrison AND Gay, sign Al Harrington, and have a All-Small-Forward Hoe-Down:

Gay at the point
Deng at off-guard
Morrison at the three
Noce at the four
Harrington at the five

Let the good times roll.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

smARTmouf said:


> What in the world does Luol provide that Adam Morrison can't?
> 
> One dribble, mid-range jumpers?
> 
> ...


Are you joking? Deng may not be Shawn Marion athletically, but he a whole lot better than Morrision athletically. Plus hes a better rebounder, finisher and a far better defensive player. 

An


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Some of the stuff Luol did last night against Minne, I've NEVER seen Adam Morrison do in a game.
> 
> The kid can SHOOT and he got alot of heart but overall, Luol's a better player than him. Morrison doesn't have much of an overall game.
> 
> We've all been hard on Deng this year, but when the offseason comes and he gets to work on his game and strengthening, he should REALLY improve and also greatly improve our team.


Agreed...I can't wait how he comes out after the offseason.


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> Deng's got more length, to finish in the open court.
> 
> Deng might be a better rebounder, when his body fills out.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry...But the way Luol finishes around the the hoop is equivalent that person that's doing the speed limit in the express lane.

GO ALREADY!...He just looks so ugly around the basket...


Adam just get's it done...He just knows how to put the ball in the hoop...draw fouls...AND still score


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

smARTmouf said:


> I'm sorry...But the way Luol finishes around the the hoop is equivalent that person that's doing the speed limit in the express lane.
> 
> GO ALREADY!...He just looks so ugly around the basket...
> 
> ...


Deng's finishing in the open court, I've noticed, is NOT that explosive. He doesn't throw down very often, like most of our Bulls.

But he has the length to get the ball on a fast break and glide over defenders to actually finish pretty well. I've seen him do it multiple times. Maybe it's just the nature of our lineup, but who else would be our finisher in the open court? Noch, sometimes, but otherwise, Deng's length and deceptive speed gets the job done pretty well.

Morrison's athletic in his own way, as well... that shouldn't be underestimated. But he won't be able to pull off a lot of his stunts that he does in the unathletic WCC.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

If we're lookin for Athleticism & scoring on the fast break and FINISHING...

there's only 1 guy we need to look at drafting and he'd be PERFECT for this team..

I'm pretty sure ya'll know who I'm talking about...


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> If we're lookin for Athleticism & scoring on the fast break and FINISHING...
> 
> there's only 1 guy we need to look at drafting and he'd be PERFECT for this team..
> 
> I'm pretty sure ya'll know who I'm talking about...


G-Mac?

Look at these mad ups . . .


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> Deng's finishing in the open court, I've noticed, is NOT that explosive. He doesn't throw down very often


2 points is two points.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> G-Mac?
> 
> Look at these mad ups . . .


LOL! look at the guys on kansas's bench


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Deng is younger and is growing. He may have a higher ceiling. 

I like Morrison, and you know what, we may draft him. If we do then John will have to use either Deng or Nocioni in a package for a big man. Not enough room on this team for 3 fours that all deserve playing time.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Only way I would take Morrison at this point is with the knowledge that he could become a 25+ point "star" scorer at the NBA level. Otherwise, his skills are too redundant on the Bulls and his presence in the lineup would cause the team to make personnel moves with other players (i.e. Gordon wouldn't be a great fit with Morrison, both are jump shooters with below average defense). 

In other words, Morrison has to be good enough to be a centerpiece of a team. As it stands right now, I don't think he's close to that level.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

truebluefan said:


> Deng is younger and is growing. He may have a higher ceiling.
> 
> I like Morrison, and you know what, we may draft him. If we do then John will have to use either Deng or Nocioni in a package for a big man. Not enough room on this team for 3 fours that all deserve playing time.


I'd trade noc, seeing as to how he's a FA next season and may not wanna return.

Don't know if Deng or Morrison would wanna play BEHIND eachother though.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

The ROY said:


> Some of the stuff Luol did last night against Minne, I've NEVER seen Adam Morrison do in a game.
> 
> The kid can SHOOT and he got alot of heart but overall, Luol's a better player than him. Morrison doesn't have much of an overall game.
> 
> We've all been hard on Deng this year, but when the offseason comes and he gets to work on his game and strengthening, he should REALLY improve and also greatly improve our team.


When you say "some of the stuff" I just find myself asking "like what?!" Because last year we all heard how Kirk did "things." Now I know Hinrich does a lot, but it ticked me off that nobody ever exactly said what. Or at least few did. What does Luol do that Morrison doesn't? I'm not saying there isn't anything, I'd just like to know what.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Pippenatorade said:


> When you say "some of the stuff" I just find myself asking "like what?!" Because last year we all heard how Kirk did "things." Now I know Hinrich does a lot, but it ticked me off that nobody ever exactly said what. Or at least few did. What does Luol do that Morrison doesn't? I'm not saying there isn't anything, I'd just like to know what.


he gets into the passing lanes pretty well, he rebounds better at the NBA level than Morrison is right now as a Zag, he plays good (but still room for plenty of improvement) man defense. Those are some of the things Deng does that don't always jump out.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

truebluefan said:


> Deng is younger and is growing. He may have a higher ceiling.
> 
> I like Morrison, and you know what, we may draft him. If we do then John will have to use either Deng or Nocioni in a package for a big man. Not enough room on this team for 3 fours that all deserve playing time.


Growing?? He's 6'9"! At SF how tall do we want him to be? He's already not that athletic for the SF position.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

Luol rebounds more in the NBA than Morrison does in college. He's more athletic. He plays better D. Has Morrison ever blocked shots the way Lou did last night?


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Pippenatorade said:


> Growing?? He's 6'9"! At SF how tall do we want him to be? He's already not that athletic for the SF position.


He'd be a handful in the post if he grew another inch, and still has the lateral quickness to play defense on most 3s. The Bulls seem to be slowly putting sets into the offense where Luol gets the ball in the post, and he looks like he knows what he's doing - could become a staple of his arsenal.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I'd trade noc, seeing as to how he's a FA next season and may not wanna return.
> 
> Don't know if Deng or Morrison would wanna play BEHIND eachother though.


Im with ya on that!

As for morrison not wanting to play behind Deng, well have him beat out Deng in practice! That would put an end to that discussion. 

Nocioni is a team player and morrison coming in as a rookie wanting entitlements will not fly with Skiles or Paxson. Now if he earns it, its all good.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

truebluefan said:


> As for morrison not wanting to play behind Deng, well have him beat out Deng in practice! That would put an end to that discussion.
> 
> Nocioni is a team player and morrison coming in as a rookie wanting entitlements will not fly with Skiles or Paxson. Now if he earns it, its all good.


I agree with you, but I can't help but get chilling flashbacks of the Jamal/Jay days, and Jamal/Kirk after that. I wasn't posting here until the middle of the Jamal/Kirk era, but realgm was almost insufferable at times because of that argument.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

ViciousFlogging said:


> he gets into the passing lanes pretty well, he rebounds better at the NBA level than Morrison is right now as a Zag, he plays good (but still room for plenty of improvement) man defense. Those are some of the things Deng does that don't always jump out.


I don't think Deng's man defense is anything more than average or maybe sufficient, but I like him as a player. My whole thing is this. You want to talk about RIGHT NOW? Right NOW I think Andres Nocioni is a better player, or at least good enough that there isn't an appreciable difference between the two. And it's not like we're waiting on Deng's low fundamentals to catch up to some extremely great athletic ability. It's the other way around. His athleticism is nothing special. It's good, but that's it. And his fundamentals are pretty good. Right now, I'm not seeing these leaps and bounds improvements coming in the next 3 years like everyone else. I see him as a poor man's Chuck Person, nothing more. 

So if Morrison and Gay turn out to be far better than anyone else in this draft as prospects, what do we REALLY LOSE trading Deng, drafting Morrison, starting Noce and bringing Morrison off the bench? I'm sure if Deng is as good as all his fans say he is, and if everyone knows this, and with his salary, we should be able to get quite a lot for him. 

Now, I'm not ready to advocate this strategy YET, but I don't think it should be shot down and I don't think Morrison should be shot down for the Bulls just yet. People say "well he won't be the all around player Deng will be even though Morrison will be a deadlier offensive threat from day one." Well you know what? Maybe that's what we need. Seems to me we have enough defense and enough all-around players. Maybe we need someone who can shoot like Bird or Miller to make this whole thing work. I'm at least willing to ask the question, because I'm sorry, but nothing in particular jumps out at me regarding Luol Deng.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

ViciousFlogging said:


> He'd be a handful in the post if he grew another inch, and still has the lateral quickness to play defense on most 3s. The Bulls seem to be slowly putting sets into the offense where Luol gets the ball in the post, and he looks like he knows what he's doing - could become a staple of his arsenal.


Sorry but I think he's already not that great in the lateral quickness department as it is.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

truebluefan said:


> Im with ya on that!
> 
> As for morrison not wanting to play behind Deng, well have him beat out Deng in practice! That would put an end to that discussion.
> 
> Nocioni is a team player and morrison coming in as a rookie wanting entitlements will not fly with Skiles or Paxson. Now if he earns it, its all good.


thing is, do we really want the headache? I don't think Deng would complain much but Morrison seems like the type that could become FULL of himself real quick in the NBA. Especially since he'll be drafted as high #1 possibly.

Honestly, I don't think Rudy Gay would have a problem coming off the bench at ALL. He seems to have accepted the fact that he's STILL learning the game & he's incredibly unselfish. You don't want a guy like that coming off the bench for your team for the next 5 years but a Deng/Gay SF combo could be LETHAL


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

The ROY said:


> thing is, do we really want the headache? I don't think Deng would complain much but Morrison seems like the type that could become FULL of himself real quick in the NBA. Especially since he'll be drafted as high #1 possibly.
> 
> Honestly, I don't think Rudy Gay would have a problem coming off the bench at ALL. He seems to have accepted the fact that he's STILL learning the game & he's incredibly unselfish. You don't want a guy like that coming off the bench for your team for the next 5 years but a Deng/Gay SF combo could be LETHAL


Actually I'm pretty sure it couldn't be lethal at all. Luol Deng = poor man's Chuck Person. Rudy Gay = less selfish/cancerous version of Jamal Mashburn. Ooooo, shut the train station down ha ha. I'm unenthralled. I'm actually disgusted that Deng and Gay on the floor at the same time doesn't trigger "exposed defense" alarms with anyone.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Pippenatorade said:


> Sorry but I think he's already not that great in the lateral quickness department as it is.


He's not elite in that sense, but he's pretty good. I really don't see him get beaten off the dribble that often, though sometimes when he's guarding SGs it happens. Prince doesn't look quick either, but he can move laterally very well because of his long strides. Deng is similar in the way he moves(though of course I wouldn't put him at close to Tayshaun's level at the moment defensively) 

Fair points. I think he and Noc are about equal also, but Deng has a slight edge and is more likely to continue to improve. Noc either shoots the spot up jumper or puts his head down and goes on offense. Luol can create a midrange jumper for himself and snake his way to the basket with a little bit more craft. They both have solid shooting strokes. I think Luol's a better perimeter defender, but Noc is tougher in the paint. They both rebound well from the 3 spot. In the end, I'm glad we have both of them. 

I'm not against drafting Morrison either, if he's the BPA. As much as I like Deng, if we can trade him for great value while keeping the SF position strong by drafting Morrison/Gay and keeping Noc, I'll be supportive of that. I just hope in that scenario that we either fortify the frontline via FA or a Deng trade.

So yeah, I'm not shy about the fact that I'm a big Deng fan, but he's not more important to me than the team. I'd enjoy rooting for Morrison or Gay too.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Pippenatorade said:


> Actually I'm pretty sure it couldn't be lethal at all. Luol Deng = poor man's Chuck Person. Rudy Gay = less selfish/cancerous version of Jamal Mashburn. Ooooo, shut the train station down ha ha. I'm unenthralled. I'm actually disgusted that Deng and Gay on the floor at the same time doesn't trigger "exposed defense" alarms with anyone.


sure...

you sound like a hater...gay a cancerous version of jamal mashburn? that right there let's me know how much YOU know lol

oh well


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

The ROY said:


> sure...
> 
> you sound like a hater...gay a cancerous version of jamal mashburn? that right there let's me know how much YOU know lol
> 
> oh well


I could be wrong, but I read Pipade's comment as "less selfish AND less cancerous" than Mash.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

ViciousFlogging said:


> I could be wrong, but I read Pipade's comment as "less selfish AND less cancerous" than Mash.


oh lol..

EDIT


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> Sorry but I think he's already not that great in the lateral quickness department as it is.


I think Luol's lateral quickness is just fine. It's his first step that is average to below average. I think this is probably why he seems slow on offense and adequate to good at defense.

He has shown some flashes of being a very good one-on-one defender, although we have not seen as much of that this year. Last season, I remember two games where he basically shut down both Kobe and Vince Carter. I believe both put up some points that game, but Deng held them to low FG% and most points were scored when Luol was not on them.


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## 4door (Sep 5, 2005)

1. We have to draft morrison if we can, he is the only player in this draft that can become a #1 option on offense, and that is what we need even more than another solid wing defender. his jib and intensity on the court are huge a huge bonus.

2. Deng will back up morrison, and play the SG, SF, or PF. Remember Deng was not even the main star on his high school team, not a star in college, and is the 3rd option on the Bulls right now. He is a great team player, and his length and improved shooting will give us the flexibilty that we had with kukuc coming off the bench. Remember, Gordon has proven that starting the game is less important than finishing the game. I think Morrison is the kind of player that needs to touch the ball early and get shots off and that fuels his intensity which can carry over to both sides of the court.

3. Morrison is a 24ppg type of scorer like Chris Mullin was. We need this more than anything else, even more than we need another PF like Harrington or a soft big man like Alderidge. Because knowing that a player will score 20 points+ every night takes so much stress off the other players, Gordon, Kirk, and Loul will not have to push themselves to take over the scoring load. As of now, we don't have a reliable scorer, i know everyone thinks Ben is but he really has not proven that over a long enough period of time. Today we have a team full of guys who could put up 20+ points, and they seem to look around at each other to find out which one will be hot enough to score that night. To have a scorer that can do it every night will allow those other players to play more within themselves and IMO will result in better play. Not to compare Morrison with jordan, but during the jordan era players knew that they did not have to take over games, that was taken care of, so they focused on playing well within the system and if someone got hot it just made the team that much better. I think Morrison is the only player in the draft or FA class that could have this type of impact on our team.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

smARTmouf said:


> I'm sorry...But the way Luol finishes around the the hoop is equivalent that person that's doing the speed limit in the express lane.
> 
> GO ALREADY!...He just looks so ugly around the basket...
> 
> ...


I think Deng is very effective around the hoop. He's not throwing down like Iguodala, but he's a good finisher from a variety of angles and can get up there. He certainly leads the team in alley oops.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

The important thing to keep in mind is that the Bulls needs are primarily at center and power forward. If drafting a 3 and trading him or Deng gets a first class center then perhaps that's what should be done. 

But the small forward position is currently well manned by Deng and Nocioni. I don't understand why one would gratuitously trade in the player who currently leads the Bulls in Roland ratings for a rookie wish & prayer when there are clear needs elsewhere. The funny thing is I bet the rookie will attract more flies on the trade market than the proven quantity we have in Deng.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

good post, 4door. If the Bulls' staff decides that Morrison is the kind of player you're saying he is, then by all means they should draft him. Then Deng or Noc can be safely included in trades without weakening that spot and whoever remains can battle Morrison in practice and hopefully make them both better players.

But why do you think Aldridge is soft? The only "softness" I've seen in the several games I've seen is that he doesn't demand the ball from his guards loudly enough at times. Otherwise I think he's pretty stout - he boards and plays good interior defense.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> I don't think Deng's man defense is anything more than average or maybe sufficient, but I like him as a player. My whole thing is this. You want to talk about RIGHT NOW? Right NOW I think Andres Nocioni is a better player, or at least good enough that there isn't an appreciable difference between the two. And it's not like we're waiting on Deng's low fundamentals to catch up to some extremely great athletic ability. It's the other way around. His athleticism is nothing special. It's good, but that's it. And his fundamentals are pretty good. Right now, I'm not seeing these leaps and bounds improvements coming in the next 3 years like everyone else. I see him as a poor man's Chuck Person, nothing more.
> 
> So if Morrison and Gay turn out to be far better than anyone else in this draft as prospects, what do we REALLY LOSE trading Deng, drafting Morrison, starting Noce and bringing Morrison off the bench? I'm sure if Deng is as good as all his fans say he is, and if everyone knows this, and with his salary, we should be able to get quite a lot for him.
> 
> Now, I'm not ready to advocate this strategy YET, but I don't think it should be shot down and I don't think Morrison should be shot down for the Bulls just yet. People say "well he won't be the all around player Deng will be even though Morrison will be a deadlier offensive threat from day one." Well you know what? Maybe that's what we need. Seems to me we have enough defense and enough all-around players. Maybe we need someone who can shoot like Bird or Miller to make this whole thing work. I'm at least willing to ask the question, because I'm sorry, but nothing in particular jumps out at me regarding Luol Deng.


A poor man's Chuck Person? IMO that's a very weird comparison. Person came into the league as a 20 PPG scorer. He never guarded anyone and had a great shot. Deng isn't nearly the shooter Person was, but he's a much better defender and I think he'll end up being the superior rebounder. 

Database basketball has Jim Jackson, Steve Smith, Allan Houston, John Starks, Vernon Maxwell, Dell Curry, Dan Majerle, Nick Van Exel, Nick Anderson and Damon Stoudamire listed as the players with the highest career similarity scores to Person. None of them reminds me of Deng. Morrison stands a much better chance of becoming a poor man's Chuck Person than Deng. Can you picture Luol Deng with the nickname "The Rifleman"? I can't.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

jbulls said:


> A poor man's Chuck Person? IMO that's a very weird comparison. Person came into the league as a 20 PPG scorer. He never guarded anyone and had a great shot. Deng isn't nearly the shooter Person was, but he's a much better defender and I think he'll end up being the superior rebounder.
> 
> Database basketball has Jim Jackson, Steve Smith, Allan Houston, John Starks, Vernon Maxwell, Dell Curry, Dan Majerle, Nick Van Exel, Nick Anderson and Damon Stoudamire listed as the players with the highest career similarity scores to Person. None of them reminds me of Deng. Morrison stands a much better chance of becoming a poor man's Chuck Person than Deng. Can you picture Luol Deng with the nickname "The Rifleman"? I can't.


Vernon Maxwell?


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> Vernon Maxwell?


Only if he shrinks five inches and develops borderline personality disorder.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

jbulls said:


> Only if he shrinks five inches and develops *borderline personality disorder*.


I've heard Mad Max compared to the late Livia Soprano.


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> Actually I'm pretty sure it couldn't be lethal at all. Luol Deng = poor man's Chuck Person. Rudy Gay = less selfish/cancerous version of Jamal Mashburn. Ooooo, shut the train station down ha ha. I'm unenthralled. I'm actually disgusted that Deng and Gay on the floor at the same time doesn't trigger "exposed defense" alarms with anyone.



Where are you gettin' this Chuck Person comparison to Luol Deng?...LOL


And Rudy Gay is Jamal Mashburn to you?

I'm wondering where are you seeing similarities to be able to draw these comparisons.


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## TheDynasty (Feb 28, 2006)

smARTmouf said:


> What in the world does Luol provide that Adam Morrison can't?


Defense my friend. Luol is a long and agile defender, I'll agree that he is not as a good a scorer as Morrison, but he plays great D and is a beter all-around player. Also Morrison does not seem to be much of a passer if you look at his assists(I haven't seem him play enough to truly know.) 

When I look at Morrison I see a one-sided offensive player who is going to have a hard time in the NBA because of lack of athleticism. I see no reason to get morrison when we are already set at the SF position.


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## 4door (Sep 5, 2005)

ViciousFlogging said:


> good post, 4door. If the Bulls' staff decides that Morrison is the kind of player you're saying he is, then by all means they should draft him. Then Deng or Noc can be safely included in trades without weakening that spot and whoever remains can battle Morrison in practice and hopefully make them both better players.
> 
> But why do you think Aldridge is soft? The only "softness" I've seen in the several games I've seen is that he doesn't demand the ball from his guards loudly enough at times. Otherwise I think he's pretty stout - he boards and plays good interior defense.



I really belive in Morrison, I think he will put up Michael Redd type of numbers in the NBA, and to sign a 20ppg+ player who can add some toughness vocally on the court and fit into our style would be great, and at about 4M per year for 4 years then that is great.

I have watched Aldridge a number of times and early reports I read compared him to howard or amare and it is easy to see that he does not have explosive jumping for shot blocking or dunks or power down low like those players have. A long agile player like Frye is a better comparison. I am not a fan of Frye and would call him soft also. He is listed at 245 but he looks closer to 225 (we'll wait to see during his work outs) but his preference to shoot turn around jumpers at 10 feet out and not dominate players 3 or 4 inches shorter than him in college makes me think he is soft. Shelden Williams is a beast in college in the fact that he lives in the post and does all his scoring by banging for position and getting tip ins or dunks. Maybe Aldridge can play this way, but from what I have seen I think that he is soft. I personally do not think his potential is very high and would put him somewhere between Frye and Joe Smith. Joe Smith looked very similar to me in college, we assumed he would become stronger and keep his skills and soft touch, but it never really happened.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

TheDynasty said:


> Also Morrison does not seem to be much of a passer if you look at his assists(I haven't seem him play enough to truly know.)


I'm pretty sure Morrison is under strict instructions to shoot first and ask questions after they've won the game and he has 35 points. I've seen him make some pretty nice passes that show he has good court vision.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

4door said:


> I really belive in Morrison, I think he will put up Michael Redd type of numbers in the NBA, and to sign a 20ppg+ player who can add some toughness vocally on the court and fit into our style would be great, and at about 4M per year for 4 years then that is great.
> 
> I have watched Aldridge a number of times and early reports I read compared him to howard or amare and it is easy to see that he does not have explosive jumping for shot blocking or dunks or power down low like those players have. A long agile player like Frye is a better comparison. I am not a fan of Frye and would call him soft also. He is listed at 245 but he looks closer to 225 (we'll wait to see during his work outs) but his preference to shoot turn around jumpers at 10 feet out and not dominate players 3 or 4 inches shorter than him in college makes me think he is soft. Shelden Williams is a beast in college in the fact that he lives in the post and does all his scoring by banging for position and getting tip ins or dunks. Maybe Aldridge can play this way, but from what I have seen I think that he is soft. I personally do not think his potential is very high and would put him somewhere between Frye and Joe Smith. Joe Smith looked very similar to me in college, we assumed he would become stronger and keep his skills and soft touch, but it never really happened.


I can't wait to see Texas play in the NCAA's. I've watched them several times this year in hopes of getting a better read on Aldridge - but it's not easy because he doesn't get the ball all that much. Against better competition they're going to have to play a more disciplined style of basketball. Hopefully they'll pound it inside to Aldridge and we'll see if he can be a little more offensively assertive.


----------



## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Defense?

I mean...Does Luol really look like an All-Defensive ANY team?

His movements are so incredibly sloppy...Zero grace...And I can't erase the memory of how Ron Artest just USED the kid.

Granted...Ron can do that...But man...In my eyes...His defense is EH.

I honestly don't think we'd lose much if we had Adam rather than Luol...We'd stand to gain far more then we could lose.

Luol is just a super role player...Adam got that STAR vibe


----------



## 4door (Sep 5, 2005)

TheDynasty said:


> Defense my friend. Luol is a long and agile defender, I'll agree that he is not as a good a scorer as Morrison, but he plays great D and is a beter all-around player. Also Morrison does not seem to be much of a passer if you look at his assists(I haven't seem him play enough to truly know.)
> 
> When I look at Morrison I see a one-sided offensive player who is going to have a hard time in the NBA because of lack of athleticism. I see no reason to get morrison when we are already set at the SF position.



If you haven't seen him play enough how can you say "when I look at morrison I see a one-sided offensive player"?

there is much more to basketball than stats, you can not say that morrison can not pass when you have not seen the offense he runs in. The offense is run around him, there is a reason why his assists are low, and he still gets 6 rebounds a game even though he is out on the wing and usually guards high and not by the hoop. I have watched him enough to say that he has the instinct and shot to be a 20+ppg scorer in this league, and he has high basketball IQ, a willingness to work inside a team, a clutch player that plays better against better teams, and from all reports he is very coachable and has a high desire to win. I can not believe that a player can single handedly score 30ppg and take his small school to the national top 5 and have so many people hate on him? Remember Gay only averages about 2 assists per game, but have you heard one person bring that up?


----------



## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Here are some (offensive) stats of some comparable players at the wing position. The number in parenthesis is an estimation of how good they are inside: (% of inside shots) * 100 * (eFG% of inside shots). The following are ranked by my crude inside efficiency measure.

http://82games.com

Type/% of shots/eFG%

*Rashard Lewis*
Jump, 76%, 49% (37.24)
Close, 18%, 58%
Dunk, 5%, 96%
Tips, 1%, 63%
Inside, 24%, 66% (15.84)

*Tayshaun Prince*
Jump, 68%, 43% (29.24)
Close, 24%, 46%
Dunk, 7%, 93%
Tips, 1%, 78%
Inside, 32%, 57% (18.24)

* Josh Howard*
Jump, 65%, 44% (28.60)
Close, 29%, 55%
Dunk, 3%, 95%
Tips, 2%, 58%
Inside, 35%, 59% (20.65)

*Luol Deng*
Jump, 64%, 39% (24.96)
Close, 30%, 58%
Dunk, 5%, 97%
Tips, 1%, 44%
Inside, 36%, 63% (22.68)

*Manu Ginobli*
Jump, 58%, 47% (27.26)
Close, 40%, 59%
Dunk, 2%, 78%
Tips, 1%, 25%
Inside, 42%, 59% (24.78)

*Richard Jefferson*
Jump, 52%, 42% (21.84)
Close, 32%, 54%
Dunk, 15%, 81%
Tips, 1%, 50%
Inside, 48%, 62% (29.76)

*Andre Iguodala*
Jump, 45%, 43% (19.35)
Close, 30%, 49%
Dunk, 23%, 92%
Tips, 2%, 29%
Inside, 55%, 66% (36.30)

Deng looks like he does finish pretty well around the basket. The one thing that stands out amongst all of this is how poor Deng is shooting jumpers compared to the rest of these guys. If he follows the same path as Richard Jefferson, and tries to increase the number of inside shots to right around 50%, I think he could definately follow a Jefferson-type career.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

smARTmouf said:


> Defense?
> 
> I mean...Does Luol really look like an All-Defensive ANY team?
> 
> ...


Interesting that you bring up Artest to make this point. Artest is hardly a graceful player - he's a little awkward and clunky, but it doesn't matter, he's athletic enough and gets the job done. So does Luol, who I think looks more fluid than Artest and who's putting up better numbers in his second season than Artest did in his.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

The ROY said:


> sure...
> 
> you sound like a hater...gay a cancerous version of jamal mashburn? that right there let's me know how much YOU know lol
> 
> oh well


Saw your edit, and henceforth I edit .


----------



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

4door said:


> 1. We have to draft morrison if we can, he is the only player in this draft that can become a #1 option on offense, and that is what we need even more than another solid wing defender. his jib and intensity on the court are huge a huge bonus.
> 
> 2. Deng will back up morrison, and play the SG, SF, or PF. Remember Deng was not even the main star on his high school team, not a star in college, and is the 3rd option on the Bulls right now. He is a great team player, and his length and improved shooting will give us the flexibilty that we had with kukuc coming off the bench. Remember, Gordon has proven that starting the game is less important than finishing the game. I think Morrison is the kind of player that needs to touch the ball early and get shots off and that fuels his intensity which can carry over to both sides of the court.
> 
> 3. Morrison is a 24ppg type of scorer like Chris Mullin was. We need this more than anything else, even more than we need another PF like Harrington or a soft big man like Alderidge. Because knowing that a player will score 20 points+ every night takes so much stress off the other players, Gordon, Kirk, and Loul will not have to push themselves to take over the scoring load. As of now, we don't have a reliable scorer, i know everyone thinks Ben is but he really has not proven that over a long enough period of time. Today we have a team full of guys who could put up 20+ points, and they seem to look around at each other to find out which one will be hot enough to score that night. To have a scorer that can do it every night will allow those other players to play more within themselves and IMO will result in better play. Not to compare Morrison with jordan, but during the jordan era players knew that they did not have to take over games, that was taken care of, so they focused on playing well within the system and if someone got hot it just made the team that much better. I think Morrison is the only player in the draft or FA class that could have this type of impact on our team.


If we keep Deng and trade Noc, keep both of them, or bring Deng off the bench, I'll puke all over myself.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> If we keep Deng and trade Noc, keep both of them, or bring Deng off the bench, I'll puke all over myself.


Are you saying that having Deng in the line-up will lead to vomiting? Why are you so disatisfied with Deng?

....or am I misunderstanding the intent of the post?


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> If we keep Deng and trade Noc, keep both of them, or bring Deng off the bench, I'll puke all over myself.


Send the memo to Pax. :biggrin:


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

jbulls said:


> A poor man's Chuck Person? IMO that's a very weird comparison. Person came into the league as a 20 PPG scorer. He never guarded anyone and had a great shot. Deng isn't nearly the shooter Person was, but he's a much better defender and I think he'll end up being the superior rebounder.
> 
> Database basketball has Jim Jackson, Steve Smith, Allan Houston, John Starks, Vernon Maxwell, Dell Curry, Dan Majerle, Nick Van Exel, Nick Anderson and Damon Stoudamire listed as the players with the highest career similarity scores to Person. None of them reminds me of Deng. Morrison stands a much better chance of becoming a poor man's Chuck Person than Deng. Can you picture Luol Deng with the nickname "The Rifleman"? I can't.


Their comparsons are very weird. John Starks is more similar to Chuck Person than Luol Deng is? Ok. In terms of athleticism and build that's who I see him as. I mean you aren't ever going to find a player with the same build, athleticism and exact same attributes. Luol is probably a better defender than Person, but I think it's a matter of opinion that he never guarded anyone (I think he did guard people, so it's kinda your subjective opinion against mine), and no one outside of Chicago (NO ONE) is talking about how Deng is this great, or even good, defender.

So yeah... Person... better defense, far inferior offense. That to me = Person minus 1. Now, who do you think Deng is more like. Whenever I ask that question to a Bulls fan I get ridiculous comparisons that overrate Deng by leaps and bounds.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Wynn said:


> Are you saying that having Deng in the line-up will lead to vomiting? Why are you so disatisfied with Deng?
> 
> ....or am I misunderstanding the intent of the post?


No my post was a direct reply to his, so I left out what I was assuming everyone was adding to the equation. It's more like:

If we (draft Morrison or Gay AND) keep both Deng and Noce, trade Noce and keep Deng, or bring Deng off the bench, I'll barf. 

I have nothing against Deng, but under no scenario would I trade Noce and keep Deng. Noce makes far less than Deng will probably command on his next contract, probably won't ever demand more, and has a far lower likely trade value. Plus to me, his defense is far superior to Deng's. Just my opinion. So IF WE DID DRAFT MORRISON, one of Deng or Nocioni has to go, and I can't see how it could be Noce.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> Vernon Maxwell?


Yeah you should see the comparisons for Michael Jordan. I almost died laughing. 

I tend to stay away from comparing players statistically or based on attributes FIRST. That is important, but what I do is find all the players that remind me of a players height, weight and athletic makeup, and then I try to find someone whose game reasonably comes close to that of the subject. That way I don't end up saying that "well you know, except for the fact that he was a FOOT AND A HALF TALLER AND PLAYED the FIVE INSTEAD OF THE ONE (!), Ralph Sampson totally reminded me of Dell Curry." LMFAO


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

smARTmouf said:


> Where are you gettin' this Chuck Person comparison to Luol Deng?...LOL
> 
> 
> And Rudy Gay is Jamal Mashburn to you?
> ...


It's so funny, I ask this all the time and never get an answer. 

Ok, if I'm so wrong about comparisons, who do YOU think they more closely resemble. Again I base comparisons on physical and athletic makeup and then go from there. That way I don't end up saying that one of the most similar players to Chuck Person would be DELL CURRY or VERNON MAXWELL.


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## 4door (Sep 5, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> If we keep Deng and trade Noc, keep both of them, or bring Deng off the bench, I'll puke all over myself.



that is too bad. i have a strong feeling that one of those things will happen, maybe you should take some pepto right now just to prepare yourself.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> Their comparsons are very weird. John Starks is more similar to Chuck Person than Luol Deng is? Ok. In terms of athleticism and build that's who I see him as. I mean you aren't ever going to find a player with the same build, athleticism and exact same attributes. Luol is probably a better defender than Person, but I think it's a matter of opinion that he never guarded anyone (I think he did guard people, so it's kinda your subjective opinion against mine), and no one outside of Chicago (NO ONE) is talking about how Deng is this great, or even good, defender.
> 
> So yeah... Person... better defense, far inferior offense. That to me = Person minus 1. Now, who do you think Deng is more like. Whenever I ask that question to a Bulls fan I get ridiculous comparisons that overrate Deng by leaps and bounds.


Their comparisons are based on statistics. Starks doesn't look like Person from a physical standpoint, but from a statistical standpoint I guess he's more similar than Deng is. Obviously comparison numbers are an inexact science. But Dell Curry (at his peak) and Allan Houston - those seem like pretty good comps for the rifleman.

As far as who to compare Deng to - it's tough to say. He's supposed to be a junior in college. His three highest similarity scores on the same site I referenced earlier are Josh Smith, Carmelo Anthony and LeBron James, pretty much because there haven't been too many 19 year old 3's who have put up good numbers (I note this not to suggest he'll be as good as Anthony or James, but to underscore the difficulty in projecting performance from players as young as Deng). Right now, Deng is an above average defensive player averaging 13, 6 and 2. Given that he's 20 years old I don't think it's a stretch to project a fairly substantial amount of improvement. Ultimately I think Deng will make a couple All Star games and end up with numbers looking something like Richard Jefferson's, though in style he reminds me a bit more of Tayshaun Prince.


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Rhyder said:


> Here are some (offensive) stats of some comparable players at the wing position. The number in parenthesis is an estimation of how good they are inside: (% of inside shots) * 100 * (eFG% of inside shots). The following are ranked by my crude inside efficiency measure.
> 
> http://82games.com
> 
> ...





Doesn't Luol just look out of place in that line up?

survey 100 people and at least 90 would say Luol is the worst out of that bunch.

Manipulated states such as those don't really mean much IMO.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

The ROY said:


> oh lol..
> 
> EDIT


there was NO REASON to edit what i said here..

hell is wrong with you folks


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## ChiSox (Jun 9, 2004)

I truly believe if Deng played for Gonzaga he would average 30 pts and would be the number on pick in the draft. Deng may not have an explosive verticle, but he doesn't need to to. He is extremely long and doesn't have to have freakish jumping ability to be effective. Deng is doing a good job this year. He is a skinny 20 year old kid, coming off a injury, that hasn't lifted weights in over a year. Remember Deng couldn't shoot a basketball with his right hand until right before training camp. Deng is putting up number against grown men that are two to three times stronger than him. I believe when Deng gets stronger he will drive more, shot better from the outside and develop into a very good post player. 

I believe the only thing Morrison can do better than Deng is shoot from the outside. I actually believe Deng has the form to be just as good of a shooter than Morrison in a couple of years. I believe Morrison and Deng will both be 20pt scorers in the league. I just think Deng has a more complete game than Morrison.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

Luol is also the youngest of the bunch...for what its worth.

He isn't done developing...

(Not saying Iggy is done either, or Prince....)


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Pippenatorade said:


> Saw your edit, and henceforth I edit .


your soft man


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> It's so funny, I ask this all the time and never get an answer.
> 
> Ok, if I'm so wrong about comparisons, who do YOU think they more closely resemble. Again I base comparisons on physical and athletic makeup and then go from there. That way I don't end up saying that one of the most similar players to Chuck Person would be DELL CURRY or VERNON MAXWELL.


See...that task is hard IMO.

That's why i stay away from it...but i'll give it a shot since you put yourself out there...LOL

Luol Deng?

I see Eric Williams right now

Rudy Gay?

I see a more skilled Josh Smith


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

smARTmouf said:


> See...that task is hard IMO.
> 
> That's why i stay away from it...but i'll give it a shot since you put yourself out there...LOL
> 
> ...


And what exactly do u see when u watch Adam Morrison?

he's the ONLY option on his team and he plays in a WEAK a** division...chris duhon could score 30 there...

don't get me wrong, he can SHOOT..but overall, he's not really that impressive..


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Deng is a better defender than what is being mentioned here. The Bulls are currently 5th in opponent field goal percentage (.429) while giving significant playing time to Ben Gordon and the sieve-tastic triumvirate of Songaila/Sweetney/Harrington at power forward. Simply by the process of elimination, one would have to assume Deng to be an above average defender.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> Deng is a better defender than what is being mentioned here. The Bulls are currently 5th in opponent field goal percentage (.429) while giving significant playing time to Ben Gordon and the sieve-tastic triumvirate of Songaila/Sweetney/Harrington at power forward. Simply by the process of elimination, one would have to assume Deng to be an above average defender.



Its the collective jib of the team.....


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

The ROY said:


> And what exactly do u see when u watch Adam Morrison?
> 
> he's the ONLY option on his team and he plays in a WEAK a** division...chris duhon could score 30 there...
> 
> don't get me wrong, he can SHOOT..but overall, he's not really that impressive..


I dunno....

He looked "ok" against Michigan State earlier this season....

Methinks Morrison could put up good numbers in the Big East even.....


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## RipDirty (Jun 17, 2002)

I'm not politically correct so here goes. No team will win an NBA championship if there best player is white. It hasn't happen since Bird. This is just the state of the game we love and the times we live in. When was the last time it happened in college? If my memory serves me right it hasn't happened since 92 Duke. Besides Morrison is a horrible rebounder and doesn't play defense. It also helps when you get all of the calls. For some to think he's gonna go anywhere and be a franchise saviour is crazy. Especially with the 25pts per game projections. Get real.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> Deng is a better defender than what is being mentioned here. The Bulls are currently 5th in opponent field goal percentage (.429) while giving significant playing time to Ben Gordon and the sieve-tastic triumvirate of Songaila/Sweetney/Harrington at power forward. Simply by the process of elimination, one would have to assume Deng to be an above average defender.


Here's the telling number:

Effective FG% Allowed 
on court: 45.3% 
off court: 49.5% 
net: -4.2% 

Not even Chandler has that kind of impact on the Bulls team defense. 

And, as you'd guess, Nocioni's numbers are the exact opposite.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

RipDirty said:


> I'm not politically correct so here goes. No team will win an NBA championship if there best player is white. It hasn't happen since Bird. This is just the state of the game we love and the times we live in. When was the last time it happened in college? If my memory serves me right it hasn't happened since 92 Duke. Besides Morrison is a horrible rebounder and doesn't play defense. It also helps when you get all of the calls. For some to think he's gonna go anywhere and be a franchise saviour is crazy. Especially with the 25pts per game projections. Get real.



And you know this because.....?

Your crystal ball?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

The Aldridge/Morrison/Gay lotto isn't impressive.

I don't think Aldridge is ready, he needs another year IMO. If he's the BEST player on his team, his coach needs to make him the #1 option. The guards on that team aren't even good enough to dominate the ball.

Morrison is the most NBA ready of the bunch but although he's a GREAT scorer in college, I just can't see him doing that to Artest, Bowen, hell even T-Mac. Kid is freakin' SLOW!

Gay, my favorite of the bunch also could use another year in college. I think he's the perfect fit for our system being that he already has the same qualities as the majority of our team.

I could see why Paxson would trade the pick, but with two lotto picks, a lotto pick in 07 & 2nd rounders, he should stick to what he's good at, drafting GREAT young talent & molding the team.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

smARTmouf said:


> Doesn't Luol just look out of place in that line up?
> 
> survey 100 people and at least 90 would say Luol is the worst out of that bunch.
> 
> Manipulated states such as those don't really mean much IMO.


I merely posted these stats to show that Luol is not bad at finishing around the basket as a couple of posters were eluding to. Out of those guys, he is in the middle of the pack. He definately has the worst jumper (or shot selection) out of the bunch however. I also would rank him last out of that bunch if based only off of current production. I do believe he _COULD_ end up being closer to the top of that list than the bottom when all is said and done.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Rhyder said:


> I merely posted these stats to show that Luol is not bad at finishing around the basket.  Out of those guys, he is in the middle of the pack. He definately has the worst jumper (or shot selection) out of the bunch however.


Yeah, that jumper really comes and goes. Sometimes he can't miss, other times the opposite. I always _think_ it's going in when he's open, which makes his streaks frustrating.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

The ROY said:


> there was NO REASON to edit what i said here..
> 
> hell is wrong with you folks



There certainly was. If you disagree, feel free to take it up with me via PM.

Also, "hell is wrong with you folks" also isn't acceptable to me, either, assuming "you folks" means the mods.


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## RipDirty (Jun 17, 2002)

Vintage said:


> And you know this because.....?
> 
> Your crystal ball?


I don't need crystal ball. Just stating the obvious. Its fairly safe to say you'll never see it happen in our lifetime. Its just like boxing. You'll never see a white man as the best fighter in the world. I'm not racist. This is just my opinion. If Duke wins the championship this year Redick will get all of the credit, but real basketball people know that Shelden Williams is the best player on the team.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

RipDirty said:


> but real basketball people know that Shelden Williams is the best player on the team.


----------



## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> You'll never see a white man as the best fighter in the world.


Um yes you do. Just look outside of the heavyweight category.


----------



## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

RipDirty said:


> I don't need crystal ball. Just stating the obvious. Its fairly safe to say you'll never see it happen in our lifetime. Its just like boxing. You'll never see a white man as the best fighter in the world. I'm not racist. This is just my opinion. If Duke wins the championship this year Redick will get all of the credit, but real basketball people know that Shelden Williams is the best player on the team.




LOL.

I thought you were dumb at first.

I see otherwise.

You are just crazy.

Shelden better than JJ?

LOL.....


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

RipDirty said:


> If Duke wins the championship this year Redick will get all of the credit, but real basketball people know that Shelden Williams is the best player on the team.


Dick Vitale talked about this about a week ago.

He said it's a shame that Shelden won't get consideration for player of the year when he's just as important on his team as J.J. Redick. They're equally important to that team's success.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

narek said:


> That moustache is enough to rule out drafting him. Who does he think he is, some 80s player?


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## RipDirty (Jun 17, 2002)

step said:


> Um yes you do. Just look outside of the heavyweight category.


Who are you talking about? I love boxing and right now the best fighter in the world is Floyd Mayweather.


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

The ROY said:


> And what exactly do u see when u watch Adam Morrison?
> 
> he's the ONLY option on his team and he plays in a WEAK a** division...chris duhon could score 30 there...
> 
> don't get me wrong, he can SHOOT..but overall, he's not really that impressive..



In all honesty


When I see Adam Morrison

I see Paul Pierce...Less athletic of course.

who says all white basketball players have to be compared to other white players


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

smARTmouf said:


> In all honesty
> 
> When I see Adam Morrison
> 
> ...


true...

hell, morrison ain't even as athletic as Mike Miller.......

I don't know, guess we'll just wait and see...


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

The ROY said:


> Dick Vitale talked about this about a week ago.
> 
> He said it's a shame that Shelden won't get consideration for player of the year when he's just as important on his team as J.J. Redick. They're equally important to that team's success.


That's fine, and an argument could be made for that no question. however, saying that "real" basketball people know this and nobody else gets it...ehhhh, whatever.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Who are you talking about? I love boxing and right now the best fighter in the world is Floyd Mayweather.


For that category, I'd have to go with Ricky Hatton.


----------



## RipDirty (Jun 17, 2002)

step said:


> For that category, I'd have to go with Ricky Hatton.


Are you serious? Hatton is pretty good. Mayweather would punish him. Ask Gatti. He's the perfiect fighter. Speed, power, defense you name it he has it. I'll probably repsect Ricky more if he starts to fight in the states. Until then for me its same song different verse. He can win at home. What can he do on the road? I can't wait for Lacy to knock Calzaghe on his butt Saturday night.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

jbulls said:


> Their comparisons are based on statistics. Starks doesn't look like Person from a physical standpoint, but from a statistical standpoint I guess he's more similar than Deng is. Obviously comparison numbers are an inexact science. But Dell Curry (at his peak) and Allan Houston - those seem like pretty good comps for the rifleman.
> 
> As far as who to compare Deng to - it's tough to say. He's supposed to be a junior in college. His three highest similarity scores on the same site I referenced earlier are Josh Smith, Carmelo Anthony and LeBron James, pretty much because there haven't been too many 19 year old 3's who have put up good numbers (I note this not to suggest he'll be as good as Anthony or James, but to underscore the difficulty in projecting performance from players as young as Deng). Right now, Deng is an above average defensive player averaging 13, 6 and 2. Given that he's 20 years old I don't think it's a stretch to project a fairly substantial amount of improvement. Ultimately I think Deng will make a couple All Star games and end up with numbers looking something like Richard Jefferson's, though in style he reminds me a bit more of Tayshaun Prince.


Yes but you do realize that I said I do my comparisons off of physical/athletic makeup. I realize that statistically they may be similar, but I do my comparisons from the standpoint of:

Say you had Person and he got hurt, who would you bring in to replace him? Luol Deng or Dell Curry? I doubt a coach would say "yeah, let's plug Curry in as the starting 3."

So I know there is another side to it, but I gave the disclaimer that I'm not comparing him statistically, nor am I saying that their attributes line up. 

As far as numbers, I've never put as much stock in that as I have put in what I see when I WATCH the game. Guys play with different players. Danny Ainge is perfect. You can look at his early numbers and mock them when comparing him to Gordon. BUT then you look at the fact that he played on the Boston Celtics of the 80s and that changes things. If every player played with the same 11 players, then numbers would be as absolute as people here often make them out to be. Now I'm not saying they don't matter. They do. But I feel their meaning is a little overexaggerated. At least when people fail to consider that each player has to play a different role with a different cast of characters.

For example, somebody brought up Deng's numbers relative to Prince the other day like it was a home run, and Prince is asked to be a defensive role player with 4 all stars who steps up and cans the open shot on the rotation. Obviously his numbers are gonna be FAR different, EVEN if he's good, than they would be were he in Deng's shoes.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

smARTmouf said:


> See...that task is hard IMO.
> 
> That's why i stay away from it...but i'll give it a shot since you put yourself out there...LOL
> 
> ...


Which leads up back to the original post I responded to. A more skilled Josh Smith and Eric Williams will never be lethal. Hell Glen Rice and Steve Smith weren't even lethal together during their time in Miami and I'd take them in a heartbeat over Eric Williams and a rich man's Josh Smith. 

Thanks for the realism though. If I tried to pre-emptively come out and state that Deng = Eric Williams I'd be getting PMs for a week about how you can't rule out Deng being close to Scottie Pippen lol. I'd take Person as a player over Williams, so I'm being more complimentary no?


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> Yes but you do realize that I said I do my comparisons off of physical/athletic makeup. I realize that statistically they may be similar, but I do my comparisons from the standpoint of:
> 
> Say you had Person and he got hurt, who would you bring in to replace him? Luol Deng or Dell Curry? I doubt a coach would say "yeah, let's plug Curry in as the starting 3."
> 
> ...


I still don't get the Deng/Person comparison. They're not similar players. They're both 6'8'' and play the 3 I guess, but I'm sure when you "WATCH the game" you must see they have totally different skill sets. Don't like Curry as a Person comp? Fine, how about Glen Rice? There are plenty of jump shooting borderline All-Star 3's to compare Person to. The bottom line is that the biggest strength in Person's game (outside shooting) is Deng's weakest point.

Obviously one has to look at Tayshaun Prince's numbers in their context, I never suggested otherwise. Which brings me to the truly idiotic Eric Williams comparison being bandied about it in this thread...

I know you didn't bring it up (though you do seem to be endorsing it). Eric Williams' best season ever he averaged 15/5/2 on a team that went 15-67 (the league's 2nd worst record) at age 24. Deng's put up comparable numbers at ages 19 and 20 on a .500 team. Williams is a career 9 PPG scorer. To me it's really obvious that Deng is the superior talent. In terms of athleticism and style they aren't similar either. Williams doesn't have range past 15 feet, is stockier and defends best in the post.

I leave you with this quote from Ben Gordon about Rudy Gay (skywalker and poor man's Josh Smith according to some): 

"He would give us another long, athletic [player],'' Gordon said. "Rudy's very mobile on the perimeter. With his length and athleticism, he kind of reminds me of Luol."


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

jbulls said:


> I still don't get the Deng/Person comparison. They're not similar players. They're both 6'8'' and play the 3 I guess, but I'm sure when you "WATCH the game" you must see they have totally different skill sets. Don't like Curry as a Person comp? Fine, how about Glen Rice? There are plenty of jump shooting borderline All-Star 3's to compare Person to. The bottom line is that the biggest strength in Person's game (outside shooting) is Deng's weakest point.
> 
> Obviously one has to look at Tayshaun Prince's numbers in their context, I never suggested otherwise. Which brings me to the truly idiotic Eric Williams comparison being bandied about it in this thread...
> 
> I know you didn't bring it up (though you do seem to be endorsing it). Eric Williams' best season ever he averaged 15/5/2 on a team that went 15-67 (the league's 2nd worst record) at age 24. Deng's put up comparable numbers at ages 19 and 20 on a .500 team. Williams is a career 9 PPG scorer. To me it's really obvious that Deng is the superior talent. In terms of athleticism and style they aren't similar either. Williams doesn't have range past 15 feet, is stockier and defends best in the post.


thank YOU lol

that's why i'm not gettin this kid...he must be watching his television in a WHOLE nother light


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

More players I think about when I think of Luol Deng include...

James Posey, Matt Harpring, Bobby Simmons...Ha...I'll even throw Mike Dunleavy Jr. in there.

I'm hard pressed to see Luol surpassing these role players...I really really hope I'm wrong...I'm just keeping it real...


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## RipDirty (Jun 17, 2002)

Vintage said:


> LOL.
> 
> I thought you were dumb at first.
> 
> ...


All you gotta do is wait to see who's name is gonna get called first on draft night. Shelden or JJ but you'd probably chalk that up to team needs. Shelden will be a starter. JJ may be a 7th man.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

RipDirty said:


> All you gotta do is wait to see who's name is gonna get called first on draft night. Shelden or JJ but you'd probably chalk that up to team needs. Shelden will be a starter. JJ may be a 7th man.


Shelden won't start for anybody in the league..


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## RipDirty (Jun 17, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Shelden won't start for anybody in the league..


Come on man. We've started Malik Allen, Othella Harrington and Mike Sweetney.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

RipDirty said:


> Come on man. We've started Malik Allen, Othella Harrington and Mike Sweetney.


you're right...nevermind


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## RipDirty (Jun 17, 2002)

The ROY said:


> you're right...nevermind


 :biggrin:


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Shelden Williams is a BEAST

mark it down.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

RipDirty said:


> All you gotta do is wait to see who's name is gonna get called first on draft night. Shelden or JJ but you'd probably chalk that up to team needs. Shelden will be a starter. JJ may be a 7th man.


That could be true, but being a better NBA prospect doesn't necessarily make Shelden more important to this Duke team than JJ is. People are talking about McRoberts being a possible lottery pick if he declares. Is he more important to Duke than JJ right now too because of that?


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## Main Event (May 30, 2002)

Lets just get Aldridge and run.. No need to look at anyone else unless Aldridge is off the board.. The we can take Bargnani.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Main Event said:


> Lets just get Aldridge and run.. No need to look at anyone else unless Aldridge is off the board.. The we can take Bargnani.


Good to see you again!


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## Main Event (May 30, 2002)

yeah its great to see you also! Im always reading, this board but i never post for some reason.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

Gay and Aldridge had subpar perfomances tonight. Duke lost against FSU.


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## Main Event (May 30, 2002)

Aldridge *always* gets owned when he faces that Jones kid from Texas A&M. The last game Jones held LaMarcus scoreless in the first half... Theres always a player who has your number and Jones just happens to be LaMarcus' kryptonite.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

I'd go for Gay, Morrison, Carney, Williams, Bargnani pretty much in that order.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

step said:


> I'd go for Gay, Morrison, Carney, Williams, Bargnani pretty much in that order.


God I hope we never draft Bargnani, or any player reasonably close to him in style


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Main Event said:


> Lets just get Aldridge and run.. No need to look at anyone else unless Aldridge is off the board.. The we can take Bargnani.


hvave u seen this kid play?

he's hot garbage..

i wouldn't waste a top 10 pick on let alone a top 3


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

The ROY said:


> hvave u seen this kid play?
> 
> he's hot garbage..


LOL. I agree though, I don't get why so many people are enamored with him. I've seen a number of his games this season and he hasn't impressed me once. 

Bargnani showed me more skills in a quick 30 second video clip than I've seen Aldridge show in multiple games. 

If we are in position to draft Aldridge, I pray we move down and take someone else.


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## 4door (Sep 5, 2005)

totally agree that aldridge is way overrated. i was going to start a new thread. I think people watch nbadraft.net/draftexpress.com too much and not watch enough games. I don't care how these website rank players, unless you have seen him, you really should not comment. Alderidge looks very weak IMO, his length and height are great but he in a soft player, and should not be compared to amare, howard, or j. o'neal. he is really closer to joe smith. Morrison and Gay are both going to be studs but in different ways. I personally like the fire that Morrison has, and I think he can mentally lead a team like Bird did, even with his slow foot speed. I think Gay will be more like a Shawn Marion like silent star. Marion is the kind of player you never notice until you look at the box score and see how he filled it all up. I think Gay could be that type of guy, but he could not be a leader like Morrison will be, he will never demand the ball IMO. I think we need morrison, then gay, then shelden williams, then ronnie brewer, and then maybe aldridge. he would probably be in my top 5 not be #1.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

THANK you 4door and Salo

I've been needing SOMEONE to vouch for me...

There should be NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO way we take this kid with our pick unless we TRADE him.

He looks so weak it's pathetic..

I saw him BOX someone out completely this evening and not even TRY To jump up for the rebound when it was CLEARLY his.

He should probably go in the top 15 but nowhere in the top 3....SERIOUSLY...

he doesn't even look READY for the nba imo


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Aldridge certainly could be the best big man prospect. 

He has some things going for him defensively. He contests shots while staying down. I think he could be a decent shotblocker, but not a great one because his quick jump isn't that high. He'll probably be a guy that forces tougher shots, but not really a shot blocking threat man on man. He's active, but instincts seem to be lacking. He boxes out decently, but I didn't see him jump for a single defensive rebound once he had his man boxed out.

Offensively, he is an excellent passer. His recognition of double teams and where his teammates was surprising to me, given his defensive court awareness didn't seem all that great to me. He has a nice little sky hook that I don't see anyone in the NBA being able to block. He seems like he would be a good offensive rebounder, and he should get some easy buckets inside because he puts the ball back up quickly.

Aldridge definately has to get stronger. I don't see him coming into the league and wowing anyone his rookie season. He definately has the potential to be a star, but I think he's going to be a work in progress and needs to work hard to be a good NBA player.

I certainly wouldn't be unhappy if we drafted him with the NY pick. However, a Carney & Williams draft looks more appealing to me the more I see Aldridge play.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Rhyder said:


> Aldridge certainly could be the best big man prospect.
> 
> He has some things going for him defensively. He contests shots while staying down. I think he could be a decent shotblocker, but not a great one because his quick jump isn't that high. He'll probably be a guy that forces tougher shots, but not really a shot blocking threat man on man. He's active, but instincts seem to be lacking. He boxes out decently, but I didn't see him jump for a single defensive rebound once he had his man boxed out.
> 
> ...


I feel like I'm watching a DIFFERENT Texas team play with the way some of you guys are talking. I don't even see him getting PLAYING time his rookie season. Kid isn't even a work in progress to me.

I damn near CRINGE just watching this kid play.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

4door said:


> totally agree that aldridge is way overrated. i was going to start a new thread. I think people watch nbadraft.net/draftexpress.com too much and not watch enough games. I don't care how these website rank players, unless you have seen him, you really should not comment. Alderidge looks very weak IMO, his length and height are great but he in a soft player, and should not be compared to amare, howard, or j. o'neal. he is really closer to joe smith. Morrison and Gay are both going to be studs but in different ways. I personally like the fire that Morrison has, and I think he can mentally lead a team like Bird did, even with his slow foot speed. I think Gay will be more like a Shawn Marion like silent star. Marion is the kind of player you never notice until you look at the box score and see how he filled it all up. I think Gay could be that type of guy, but he could not be a leader like Morrison will be, he will never demand the ball IMO. I think we need morrison, then gay, then shelden williams, then ronnie brewer, and then maybe aldridge. he would probably be in my top 5 not be #1.


 :clap: 

Thank you! I'm watching him play the other night and I'm thinking to myself "THIS is the guy that some people are 'drooling' over??" I see exactly what you said. Joe Smith. And just like Smith, we might be waiting years.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Pippenatorade said:


> :clap:
> 
> Thank you! I'm watching him play the other night and I'm thinking to myself "THIS is the guy that some people are 'drooling' over??" I see exactly what you said. Joe Smith. And just like Smith, we might be waiting years.


I don't even see him being as GOOD as joe smith...

I feel like I'm watching a kid still in H.S. play when I see him on the court...


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

jnrjr79 said:


> There certainly was. If you disagree, feel free to take it up with me via PM.
> 
> Also, "hell is wrong with you folks" also isn't acceptable to me, either, assuming "you folks" means the mods.


LOL ok..do u think I CARE what u consider "acceptable"? I don't know u and wasn't talking to you either


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

The ROY said:


> I don't even see him being as GOOD as joe smith...
> 
> I feel like I'm watching a kid still in H.S. play when I see him on the court...


No crap man. And I was a huge Eddy fan and I used to even get frustrated at Eddy, but by age 22 he had found a niche on this team. And that's the thing. We HAD Eddy at 22 and he was starting to be DECENT. People say "well you cancel AD and Sweetney out and it's Aldridge v. Eddy to see who won the trade (or whatever 'people say')" and I'm thinking to myself, "yeah, but if we have to wait 3 years for Aldridge to even be as good as Eddy, what about the 4 years we'll have lost when we could have ALREADY HAD EDDY CURRY??" I don't think it's that hard to be as good as Curry when you have Aldridge's natural talents, but we'll be waiting EVEN FOR THAT. And to be as good as Curry aint asking much. 

So for me it goes back to asking the question, don't years that we waste waiting on a guy to get us back to where we were last year get factored into the trade equation?? They're factors for me!


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Bargnani?

Why do people like him?

Is it just because of what mock drafts have up?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

jbulls said:


> I leave you with this quote from Ben Gordon about Rudy Gay (skywalker and poor man's Josh Smith according to some):
> 
> "He would give us another long, athletic [player],'' Gordon said. "Rudy's very mobile on the perimeter. With his length and athleticism, he kind of reminds me of Luol."


 :yes: 

Ben knows What's up...


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

smARTmouf said:


> Bargnani?
> 
> Why do people like him?
> 
> Is it just because of what mock drafts have up?


I don't know ANYTHING about him..but he CAN'T be worse than Aldridge...


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

smARTmouf said:


> Bargnani?
> 
> Why do people like him?
> 
> Is it just because of what mock drafts have up?


 :clap: 

:banana: 

My god, I'm thinking "this guy and Chandler, that's an unmitigated frickin disaster waiting to happen." If the Bulls draft this guy I'm DONE until Reinsdorf and Paxson are out of there. I'll still root for Kirk, Deng, Duhon and Noce as individuals and that's IT!


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I feel like I'm watching a DIFFERENT Texas team play with the way some of you guys are talking. I don't even see him getting PLAYING time his rookie season. Kid isn't even a work in progress to me.
> 
> I damn near CRINGE just watching this kid play.


I guess I like him better than you. I do think he is a project, and is going to have a steep learning curve. To me, I see a less polished Andrew Bogut both offensively and defensively, but I do see more potential upside out of him (I was not that high on Bogut either, FYI). He is less athletic than Bogut, but he has length to make up for it.

I don't think he should necessarily be our pick as a lot of people assume he is going to be. If Carney and Gay are off the board, I see no problem taking Aldridge. He might be a good guy to bring along slowly behind a Gooden or Harrington signing in FA.

I think we need to pass on Morrison, unless we already have a deal arranged to trade him or Deng in the works.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

The ROY said:


> LOL ok..do u think I CARE what u consider "acceptable"? I don't know u and wasn't talking to you either



I am the mod that edited your post. You complained about the post having been edited. So, when you complained that your post should not have been edited, you were talking to me.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

smARTmouf said:


> Bargnani?
> 
> Why do people like him?
> 
> Is it just because of what mock drafts have up?


Have you seen him play or are you just bad-mouthing him?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

jnrjr79 said:


> I am the mod that edited your post. You complained about the post having been edited. So, when you complained that your post should not have been edited, you were talking to me.


alllllllrighty then


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> Yes but you do realize that I said I do my comparisons off of physical/athletic makeup. I realize that statistically they may be similar, but I do my comparisons from the standpoint of:
> 
> Say you had Person and he got hurt, who would you bring in to replace him? Luol Deng or Dell Curry? I doubt a coach would say "yeah, let's plug Curry in as the starting 3."
> 
> ...



Interesting post...what I really find to astute is that pips taking the assembled surrounding cast and the lack of turnover on a teams roster into consideration. This can have a dramatic effect on any career and lends meaning to the "victim of circumstances" orr "predetermined fate" arguements. I see merit in this observation of degree of change in the variable has a large effect on the outcome.

FWIW... my comparison for Deng is somewhat old school, since I do not see anyone active today that I can compare him to. I compare Deng to JAMAL WILKES, very smooth and effective, not greatness but very solid overall. I could personally care less if we were to trade ANYBODY off this challenged team, providing we improve our team their are no untouchables.

Nobody cares, but my draftboard for the Bulls has:

Top Gay, Carney
Mid Sheldon, Alderidge
Mid late Pittsnogle, Augustine


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Rhyder said:


> I guess I like him better than you. I do think he is a project, and is going to have a steep learning curve. To me, I see a less polished Andrew Bogut both offensively and defensively, but I do see more potential upside out of him (I was not that high on Bogut either, FYI). He is less athletic than Bogut, but he has length to make up for it.
> 
> I don't think he should necessarily be our pick as a lot of people assume he is going to be. If Carney and Gay are off the board, I see no problem taking Aldridge. He might be a good guy to bring along slowly behind a Gooden or Harrington signing in FA.
> 
> I think we need to pass on Morrison, unless we already have a deal arranged to trade him or Deng in the works.


actually, i agree with the whole post...

maybe he would be someone good to bring along SLOWLY, I just can't see us taking him with a top 5 pick....

I really wouldn't wanna move Deng for Morrison but if they got master plan to aquire a star big, then I'm all for it.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

SPIN DOCTOR said:


> Interesting post...what I really find to astute is that pips taking the assembled surrounding cast and the lack of turnover on a teams roster into consideration. This can have a dramatic effect on any career and lends meaning to the "victim of circumstances" orr "predetermined fate" arguements. I see merit in this observation of degree of change in the variable has a large effect on the outcome.
> 
> FWIW... my comparison for Deng is somewhat old school, since I do not see anyone active today that I can compare him to. I compare Deng to JAMAL WILKES, very smooth and effective, not greatness but very solid overall. I could personally care less if we were to trade ANYBODY off this challenged team, providing we improve our team their are no untouchables.
> 
> ...


I like the Wilkes comparison too, but I think Jamaal was more agile and quicker if I remember from what little I've seen of him. But it's not off base as a comparison. Impressive.


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Rhyder said:


> Have you seen him play or are you just bad-mouthing him?



If you can decipher from my comment exactly how i'm 'bad-mouthing' him...

then i'll give you a million dollars.

It was a simple question.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

smARTmouf said:


> If you can decipher from my comment exactly how i'm 'bad-mouthing' him...
> 
> then i'll give you a million dollars.
> 
> It was a simple question.


Mine was also a simple question. I just didn't know where you were coming from. If I tried to interpret tone from your post I would have guessed sarcastic, which is why I asked.

I wasn't sure if you were curious and looking for a scouting report, or if you have seen the kid play and feel he is overrated. That's all.

I've only seen him play once against TAU. I think he only had 10 or 11 minutes in the game, so I couldn't gauge him hardly at all. He definately is athletic and a pretty good ball-handler. Outside of that I didn't see much else. He looked more like Radmanovic than Dirk physically.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

If anybody thinks Morrison will be an ego-centric jerk when he gets into the league, you are mistaken. From what I've read in newspapers, web sites, etc. Morrison is a humble guy who apparently doesn't say a lot off the court. As for his game...

He's not Larry Bird. Larry Bird was Larry Bird. Bird was a better rebounder, a far better passer (one of the best passers ever), and just overall a better player. Morrison has the same scoring game that Bird does though. He can hit off the board, in traffic, from the corner, in the paint. Wherever he is on the court, he can score there. However, unless I have a pre-arranged deal for Luol Deng that nets us a Chris Bosh/Paul Pierce/etc. player than I couldn't justify picking Morrison. However, let's say we gave Boston: Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, #10-#12 Pick for Paul Pierce. They probably don't take it, but if they do, how does a lineup of...

PG-Kirk Hinrich
SG-Adam Morrison
SF-Paul Pierce
PF-Nene
C-Tyson Chandler

BENCH
Chris Duhon
John Salmons
Andres Nocioni
Darius Songalia
Tony Battie/Kelvin Cato/etc

That's a pretty damn good team.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

T.Shock said:


> If anybody thinks Morrison will be an ego-centric jerk when he gets into the league, you are mistaken. From what I've read in newspapers, web sites, etc. Morrison is a humble guy who apparently doesn't say a lot off the court. As for his game...
> 
> He's not Larry Bird. Larry Bird was Larry Bird. Bird was a better rebounder, a far better passer (one of the best passers ever), and just overall a better player. Morrison has the same scoring game that Bird does though. He can hit off the board, in traffic, from the corner, in the paint. Wherever he is on the court, he can score there. However, unless I have a pre-arranged deal for Luol Deng that nets us a Chris Bosh/Paul Pierce/etc. player than I couldn't justify picking Morrison. However, let's say we gave Boston: Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, #10-#12 Pick for Paul Pierce. They probably don't take it, but if they do, how does a lineup of...
> 
> ...


If he shoots like Bird, or even close to it, I don't care about the rest of his game. People here are obsessed with people being complete players. At this point we just need someone to add something like a shot of that nature to the pot. We'll rebound and defend as a team just fine. Lord knows, we did FINE in those areas with EDDY CURRY as a starter.


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