# A Scary Thought About Araujo/Raptors Centre Position



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

If Araujo comes into camp and is overwhelmed by the vets--he is a fouling machine, he can't hit a shot, he makes poor decisions, he looks out of shape, etc--what do we do?

1st Option-

Bosh starts at centre with Marshall at power forward. I know, I know, that's a scary thought. But what else can we do? If Araujo isn't ready, the most viable option would be to start Bosh. He has experience, he's good enough, and although it would hurt his development (and his body), we don't have any other option if we want to win games.

2nd Option-

Moiso starts at centre. He is thin and we don't know what to expect from him, but in order to keep Bosh out of the fire, Moiso is the only other player who can play centre right away. It would leave us very thin up front, but we are anyways.

3rd Option-

Sign some scrub centre (Scott Williams, Loren Woods, Corie Blount, Lawrence Funderburke) for the minimum and let him start. This is going to make our centre position and our starting lineup much weaker, but we are limited if we want to keep Bosh from playing centre and we know that Araujo can't get the job done. We'd be repeating the same mistakes of the last two seasons but we have very limited options.

4th Option-

What else can we do? Thoughts?


Overall, without a proven player at the 5 spot, or someone with more experience than Bosh, are we putting to much weight on Araujo's shoulders? What if the unthinkable happens and he is just not ready to play major minutes this year, are we screwed?


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

We gotta trade Yell for a center.

Donyell Marshall is our 2nd best player IMO and 'should' be starting the 4. Moiso should be the 10th to 12th man off the bench and Araujo supposedly won't be starting so starting Bosh at center makes sense right? Wrong. Bosh taking on guys 60lbs heavier than him consistently will most likely result in our future franchise player being much like our current franchise player; injury-prone. Sitting Marshall doesn't make that much sense either because he is our 2nd (or 3rd if you count Rose as 2nd) option.. just because Bosh is a soph doesn't mean that he can step ahead of Yell (Donyell is the better player right now), but going from being a rookie starter to a bench soph is pretty detrimental.

If we can maybe pry Potapenko from Seattle our troubles will be solved. Marshall for Potapenko is more than fair value but okay centers are uncommon in the L.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

he's not as bad as you put him out to be. He'll be fine.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i think marshall would be more than serviceable as a backup plan. sure, it wouldn't be the ideal situation, but it's not the ideal situation _now_ either. 

this team will win games at its other positions (pg, sg/sf, pf, coach). we'll probably be outmatched versus every centre in the league, but what's a team without a weakness?

peace


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

Funderburke :dead:, rather see Bosh at center.

Honestly, I think Bosh and Marshall along with Rose will be our starting frontline on opening day, unless Ujo looks like Shaq out there in camp. However, that 4/5 combo won't be out there too long. I think however, the best option is #2. I want see if Moiso can produce starting every night or at least playing significant minutes.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Trade Carter.. Get a decent center and more in return...


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I'm not scared of any of these options- starting Bosh, Raf, or Moiso at center. All three guys should get some time at the 5. 

However, I think Ujo is going to be just fine. He really gets hated on as a rookie big man but I think he's going to suprise a lot of people. Is he going to center our team to the playoffs? You never know I guess but he's going to listen to the coach, rebound hard, and hit some shots.

My solution is play them. This might not make VC too happy but I'm OK with that too. We need to develop our young bigs and this is the year to do so (ie the same year we trade Vince). If that means we land a high lotto pick, all the better.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> My solution is play them. This might not make VC too happy but I'm OK with that too. We need to develop our young bigs and this is the year to do so (ie the same year we trade Vince). If that means we land a high lotto pick, all the better.


i'm just wondering, sky, how many more lottery picks do you think we need? i understand you're hoping for another jewel in next year's draft, and that's understandable, but it's important to remember that this team was a playoff team the year before it selected bosh (at 4), and two years before it selected araujo (at 8). it also improved itself (on the whole) with the jalen for AD trade by getting younger, getting marshall's cheap contract, unloading the underperforming AD and overpaid JYD, and is now ready (allegedly) to start with a clean slate, new management team and coaching staff. 

*in the right situation* (four key words) i think this team can already be great. personally, i don't want to get caught building forever. i mean, i'm sure the spurs would have also loved to have gotten okafor in this year's draft, but they're ready to compete now, and (imo) with that mentality/approach, they DO compete now. 

i think our management pawns are in dire need (and i don't take that term lightly) to have an honest exchange amongst themselves- to get everybody on the same page. if they're hoping to miss the playoffs next year in order to retain their first rounder, and take another player for the future, i think that should change almost everything about how they position this team for the future, and how they make their decisions in the present. 

on the other hand, if they're comfortable with the pieces they already have (and i am), they need to imbue this team with a different philosophy, outlook and *fire*, in order to learn how to "overachieve", in order to maximize vast potential.

if you look around the league, the teams who are currently "great" don't necessarily have "better" players than the raptors- i think, on the whole, they may be marginally more talented, but considerably more seasoned as professionals, and far more ambitious, committed and confident. i don't think we face a dearth of "talent" in toronto, i think it's a matter of playing the hand we're dealt, and conveniently picking up the "right" cards as we go along. 

some may suggest that the team looks very familiar to the team that won 33 games last year, and even the team that won 24 the year before, and that is a valid argument on many levels (imo), but i think it's also a very _different_ team NOW in the sense that given an injury-free season, a vitally new coaching staff and franchise philosophy, this may yet be a very different squad- ironically with the same contingent of players.

i think the importance of intangibles cannot be underestimated here, and i think the raptors have the skeleton profile of a team that can potentially compete as soon as today. it's a matter of striving to win, willing victories, and in order to do that, i think it's important to shelve the seemingly everpresent desires to go to the lottery again.

if not, we need to go about our "rebuilding" (our franchise's makeover) in a different way, from step 1- not by "sitting on the fence", and not by using our lottery picks to select 24 year old centres who can be admirable role players, but probably not *key pieces* to potentially shape the future. 

in short, i think we all have to get off the fence, pick one side or the other, and pursue our chosen direction at 100 mph.

peace


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I'm in complete agreement, great post. I think we do have adequate pieces to compete now. It is only under the assumption that somehow our players are not good enough and we need to trade Vince that I posit a one-year rebuilding plan- stocking up on young players. Adding just one more in the next draft may not seem like a big deal but the difference between getting a lotto pick and getting no pick at all is monstrous. 

I usually try to look at both sides of the argument. I also argue that our players are of the most underrated in the league coming into next season and that we can make a good run with Vince Carter. But this needn't be the case, if things go awry, I think we're in prime position to tank (trade VC for young players) and set ourselves up to be one of the strongest teams in the East. 

I know I push a little hard for the lotto now and that's because I witnessed playoff mediocrity cripple this team as we were hit with Mo Pete, Bradley, and Jeffries three years in a row. 

Looking at the East, I know that we're going to have a very tough time making playoffs, even with Vince. I do think we've turned the corner and I see the characteristics that are most valuable to a team- toughness, intelligence, dedication- in our young guys. Ideally, I'd love to sneak intot the playoffs and still have our pick protected. 

This thread (for me) is about our young frontcourt and how they may not be enough to take us into the playoffs. Personally, I think a Bosh/Araujo combo is going to be a lot stronger than most think but if they struggle (and if Vince is shipped out I think they will) then we're probably going to keep our pick next season. 

This team is getting stronger but I don't know if we're ready to go for it, just yet. We don't have the trade assets or cap room in place so the best way to build in the short term is likely through the draft. 

Our team is stronger but our conference is looking a lot stronger than last year. I want this team to win more than anything but if I don't think we need to fret that much over our frontcourt going into training camp as this is as far from a "make or break" season as you can get.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

I am fairly certain that we are not going to be in rebuilding mode, Vince or not. The Araujo pick signifies that. 

The public stance for a top quality player in return, or "making this team better" for VC signifies that. That statement does not refer to the future. Without such qualification, it refers to the here and now. Otherwise, that Babs quote will come back to haunt him if he gets a 1st, a youngster and cap relief. 

The philosophy to improve from within the team signifies this as well.

Like it or not, this is not going to be a complete re-do.

As for my take on the talent, Coach had better have some serious motivating power to get this group moving. It may not be beyond him, but I don't see any better than being in the race for the last 2 spots. That's with relatively good health. Ie no more than 10 games lost to each top player, you know who they are.


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

Araujo could be a very important player in the up coming months of this franchise.... regardless of how effective he proves to be.

1st case scenario)
IF Hoffa turns out to be a baller there is no need to move any of our current players for a capable center. Right? Therefore I fail to see the point in forcing a donyell or Vince trade this summer while Araujo's status remains uncertain. We would be trading away depth and talent for redundancy. 

2nd case scenario)
Araujo is a complete stiff. If and when this becomes apparent we can use some of our highly regarded players and pick up some frontcourt help and hopefully some young talent. Which would likely mean Vince and donyell are gone. We have more depth at the 1,2,3,4 than the 5. Therefore if he doesn't not contribute we need to trade away some of our depth for a decent center.

My point being it would be a good idea to see how well Hoffa can compete against NBA players before we move ANYBODY.

I won't speculate on how I feel he will produce.... b/c, like everyone here, I have no idea. I hope he's able to contribute. If not, look for Babcock to make a significant move to obtain some help in the middle


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>icehawk</b>!
> We gotta trade Yell for a center.


..and BINGO was his nameo!

been sayin that for months - 

also lets not forget bonner - he *may* be a factor


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Yep.

Lookit, we got a million wings, and 2 starting PGs, with 2 backup PGs.

We got Bosh, Donyell, Moiso & Bonner at PF.

At center, we got a slow guy who can't jump or defend trying to become an NBA player, a guy who couldn't score in the post against summerleague scrubs...
And a 45th overall pick who has busted in 2 cities over 4 years and never played more than 12mpg.

Our choices for starting center are about as good, relateive to the league, as our 4th string PG or PF.

We were 2nd last in the NBA in rebounding.

Every journeyman center in the NBA was like 23 and 17 against us.

AND WE COULDN'T DO ANY BETTER???

Donyell is obviously redundant. And obviously will grab value in return. And our need at center is desparate.

Even IF Araujo does very, very well, - that would be Chris Kaman #s. Say 24 mpg. How would having another legitimate starting center to split the minutes not be a greater asset than Donyell? Marshall is either taking minutes away from Bosh, or putting him at risk by bumping him to center.


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## Critic (Jun 19, 2003)

Big Raf is going to surprise alot of you Raptor fans. His game will transfer very well to the NBA. I think he'll be a 8-10 point, 8 rebound per game center this year easily.

He was a good pick.


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> How would having another legitimate starting center to split the minutes not be a greater asset than Donyell? Marshall is either taking minutes away from Bosh, or putting him at risk by bumping him to center.


B/C moisio has proven he is a legit backup center on any team. KO barely game him a chance. When he did, we saw flashes of a very talented athlete. However he was punished for marginal mistakes and never given the opportunity to develop confidence in his role. Sam appears to be the polar opposite in terms of player development. We have Alex English to help him along. AND we will be running an up tempo offense...which speaks for itself.

So if Araujo proves to be capable, and donyell has been traded for a center we then have pure redundancy at the position. Wasted bodies sitting on the bench.

Isn't two PF's redundancy you ask? No. Two is perfect. We have a backup that will not loose a step. Very important. As well, donyell and CB are two very different players capable of exploiting very different weaknesses.

I still feel donyell could be traded. However I think it is very important for this franchise to spend some time with BOTH araujo and moisio and evaluate their potential. Otherwise we could be trading away one of our best assets for something we don't even need. As well they need to evaluate Bonner and decide if he is ready to contribute. 

People...you are just bored and want basketball to start. This team will not rush into anything just b/c its the off season and there is nothing else to do. Donyell's trade value isn't going down any time soon...be patient. And Viking...what did araujo do to you? Why do you continue to hate on him?


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Option 1- trade Chris Bosh to the Bulls for either Eddy Curry or Tyson Chandler.....your choice.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> Option 1- trade Chris Bosh to the Bulls for either Eddy Curry or Tyson Chandler.....your choice.


How about - No Thanks.


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## AdamIllman (May 12, 2003)

worst case scenario araujo wont be worse than any of the centres you named.


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> Option 1- trade Chris Bosh to the Bulls for either Eddy Curry or Tyson Chandler.....your choice.


:laugh:

I'd be willing to do a Curry, Robinson, and add Gordon or Deng for Carter and a future pick. Pretty risky business though; Curry is lazy, Robinson has a fat contract, and Gordon/Deng hasn't even played a game in the L yet.


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> Option 1- trade Chris Bosh to the Bulls for either Eddy Curry or Tyson Chandler.....your choice.


Option 2 - trade Kirk Hinrich for milt palacio


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> I'm in complete agreement, great post. I think we do have adequate pieces to compete now. It is only under the assumption that somehow our players are not good enough and we need to trade Vince that I posit a one-year rebuilding plan- stocking up on young players. Adding just one more in the next draft may not seem like a big deal but the difference between getting a lotto pick and getting no pick at all is monstrous.
> 
> I usually try to look at both sides of the argument. I also argue that our players are of the most underrated in the league coming into next season and that we can make a good run with Vince Carter. But this needn't be the case, if things go awry, I think we're in prime position to tank (trade VC for young players) and set ourselves up to be one of the strongest teams in the East.
> ...


this is true, and i agree with you, but i'm thinking more in the sense of having the right "approach". if a lottery pick slides into our lap, then all the better- that means we get a lottery pick. but i don't think players/teams like kobe/the lakers, for instance, are going to be thinking, "man, if we tank this season, we might get a top draft pick who'll help to elevate us in the future". i think they're going to go *at it*, i think they're going to be firmly focused on winning ballgames, and letting fate decide whether they do or don't get their valued lottery pick.

in other words, i think it's about approach- if we (even as fans) continue to think "every cloud has a silver lining", then we will (more often than not) fail outright. i don't think it's healthy to be worried about "what happens if we fail". the raptors have actually tanked two seasons in a row already (save for that last game against milwaukee), and i don't know how easy it is to _remember_ how to compete after purposely _forgetting_ how to compete for awhile. i don't know whether it can be done at the flip of a switch.

i think our management team needs to be concerned with the long-term forecast, absolutely. but i think the players need to be absolutely steadfast in their pursuit of _their_ goal, be it to win or rebuild, and cannot let the idea of a *plan B* corrupt their approach to basketball games.

i don't know how our frontline will fit in the grand scheme of things, but i'm comfortable with the 4 players we've earmarked for the jobs. they may not be four david robinsons or hakeem olajuwons- ok, just david robinsons- but there aren't many dominant centres in the league now, anyway. i think araujo will certainly contribute- i can't see him being absolutely useless- and as long as he does, i don't think this will be an issue. 

for one, i think we can use more speed, i don't think skip is enough, but we can surely compensate for that in other areas. what's paramount is that i think this team is ready to win, ready to win now, and should accept no failure at all. 

FA's down the road and lottery picks will sort themselves out. 

peace


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Critic</b>!
> 
> Big Raf is going to surprise alot of you Raptor fans. His game will transfer very well to the NBA. I think he'll be a 8-10 point, 8 rebound per game center this year easily.





> Originally posted by <b>DAllatt</b>!
> 
> And Viking...what did araujo do to you? Why do you continue to hate on him?


I like the guy as a college player. But excuse me if I trust my eyes and not what other people say.

If Big Raf averages 9 and 8 in his rookie season, I will eat Raffy's shorts, and have Critic's for dessert.

Chris Kaman is 7', 268 lbs, and a freak athlete. He has (IIRC) a 32" vert, and beat TJ Ford in the agility drill in the pre-draft at Chicago. He was 6th overall last year in a very deep draft.

He was a very polished junior coming into the NBA, and mustered a total of 6.1 and 5.6 in his rookie season.

It is almost impossible to find rookie big men who put up better numbers than this. You are generally looking at HOF players when you find them. Wilt, KAJ, Shaq. (and Amare!) 

So does Araujo strike you as similar to those guys? Or more like Vitaly Potapenko? The Ukraine Train, 12th overall in 96 when Europeans were not so fashionable. Built just like Hoffa, in his 3rd year in the NBA he mustered 10ppg and 6.6rpg as a starter playing 28mpg. He never got any better.

I think a reasonable expectation for Araujo is 15mpg, 4rpg 5ppg.

And when he performs something in that area, all of you fans will call him a bust.

And me, the so-called hater, will say, decent job kid, let's see you get 6 and 9 next year.





> Originally posted by <b>DAllatt</b>!
> B/C moisio has proven he is a legit backup center on any team.


:rofl: Moiso has "proven" nothing!

He has been dumped by 3 teams in 3 years, and you make it sound like KO is the only guy who had a problem with him.

I have no idea why Raptors fans think he is a center. He is a 6-10, 235 lb guy who was drafted as a PF, and played as a PF everywhere he has been kicked out of.

He is obviously a talented athlete, and I hope Sam gives him a limited role wherein he can be succesful. 



> So if Araujo proves to be capable, and donyell has been traded for a center we then have pure redundancy at the position. Wasted bodies sitting on the bench.


1. You can never have enough bigs. Detroit has 2 Wallaces, Elden Campbell, Derrick Coleman and Darko. (I would love 1 guy as good as any of these 5)

2. Even if Araujo is hysterically successful, you will need another guy to play 20mpg. At PF, you have Bosh who you will try to get 36mpg, and you will have trouble getting enough minutes for Moiso and Bonner.

And while I agree that you don't want to rush into anything, Donyell's trade value may go down as this is the last year he is under contract. And players are moving now. Mihm would have been nice, compared to what we have...


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

Kaman and vitaly entered in the western conference....HUGE difference.

And Kaman plays like an athlete...Araujo plays like a big body. Huge difference.

We don't need Araujo to put up good numbers. We just need an effective big body to sit in the middle, contest inside shots and prevent larger centers from pushing our guys around. Pick up some rebounds here and there, while keeping players off of bosh and away from our wing players. 

All he needs to do is be able to move his feet lateraly and avoid quick fouls. If he can do that mission accomplished.

As for your detroit comment rasheed and coleman are PF's and coleman will likely be released....so maybe we will get him.

We'll just have to agree to disagree but don't pretend that you know Araujo won't be effective just b/c you didn't like the pick. I wasn't a huge fan either but in reality we didn't see his workouts, attend his interviews or really know anything about the kid. None of us know if he'll succeed or not. Have some optimisim, he showed some good signs in summer league. Wait til he gets some legitimate coaching at least.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DAllatt</b>!
> And Kaman plays like an athlete...Araujo plays like a big body. Huge difference.


Kaman plays like a center. Which includes athlete and big body.



> We don't need Araujo to put up good numbers. We just need an effective big body to sit in the middle, contest inside shots and prevent larger centers from pushing our guys around. Pick up some rebounds here and there, while keeping players off of bosh and away from our wing players.


I think we need Araujo to put up good numbers. What happens if Moiso stinks? Or gets injured? And Woods sucks?



> As for your detroit comment rasheed and coleman are PF's and coleman will likely be released....so maybe we will get him.


First, he left of Dice, so they're still set there. But, you want Coleman? I don't want that cancer around Bosh or Araujo.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Marc Jackson came in as an older rookie, drafted 38th, and put up 13 points and 7.5 rebounds, largely because he big and strong enough to handle 30 mpg or so. I think Araujo could get similar minutes, why not the production?


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

I was watching some raptor summer league the other day. Rafeal Aruojo ****ing sucks. That is all.


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>FanOfAll8472</b>!
> 
> Kaman plays like a center. Which includes athlete and big body.


Much of kaman's game comes on the perimeter, He was often abused in the post last season. Don't get me wrong I like him but he isn't the bruiser that Hoffa was drafted to be




> I think we need Araujo to put up good numbers. What happens if Moiso stinks? Or gets injured? And Woods sucks?


The truth is none of these guys need to put up good numbers the rest of our team is good enough to make up the difference. There is more than enough scoring on our roster without them, and as for rebounds bosh will benefit from a large body keeping the opposing center off of him. As well jalen, vince are above average rebounders when they want to...also benefiting from a large body. My point is we need a roll player, not a numbers guy. I don't care if he averages 10 points or 3 points. *I just want a physical front court presence.*



> First, he left of Dice, so they're still set there. But, you want Coleman? I don't want that cancer around Bosh or Araujo.


I don't want coleman. I was responding to his comment that he would take anyone of those 5. Sarcasm. And dice is also a PF. We're talking center's here.



> Originally posted by <b>mo76</b>!
> I was watching some raptor summer league the other day. Rafeal Aruojo ****ing sucks. That is all.


Great post


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Somebody says he thinks Hoffa will get 9 & 8.

That is okay.

I say not.

And then you say "we don't know yet."

Well, I know.

Five centers in the entire NBA got 9 & 8 last year.

FIVE!

Araujo is NOT GOING TO JOIN THAT CLUB.

But I agree with you (DAllatt) that WE DON'T NEED HIM TO!

He can box out and get his share of rebounds.

He can make his free throws.

He won't get pushed around, and may be able to be a bit of an enforcer.

All very useful things on our roster.

I think he is also grounded and fairly intelligent. If we don't mess him up with false expectations (We = The Organizatin, The Media & The Fans) he will likely figure out how to maximize his contributions in a couple of years. I mean, if Najera can score in the post, so can Araujo. 

One thing I really like about him - he has great hands. He catches tough passes, hangs on to loose balls, and can get the ball to drop IF he gets his shot off.

btw, Marc Jackson was a good find. He did play 3 years in Europe after being college, and was 26 in his "rookie" season.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

> I think a reasonable expectation for Araujo is 15mpg, 4rpg 5ppg.
> And when he performs something in that area, all of you fans will call him a bust.


That would be excellent production in such limited minutes. Stats are not accumulated in a straight line fashion. You tend to pick up a bunch of points or rebounds in a short stretch and then sometimes nothing for quite a while.

The ball just doesn't bounce your way some times and you don't get touches. So the less minutes you play the less of these good stretches you may get. Plus its hard to get into the rhythm of the game and get comfortable quickly.

No reason he can't beome a 10/8 guy over the last 20 games of the year. Every 20 games is like another year of college, but with better coaching and against better talent. If he understands the game at all he will improve quickly.



> He has been dumped by 3 teams in 3 years, and you make it sound like KO is the only guy who had a problem with him.


Correction: Moiso has only played for 3 teams in 4 years. 1 year in Boston where he never played a lick. 2 years with the Hornets, the second year being quite good in limited minutes and seemed to break out in the playoffs (6/4/1.75 in 15mpg)

Was only traded ONCE. Silas wanted him in Cleveland but he CHOSE to come to Toronto as a FA. 

Then he went to Toronto and KO destroyed his confidence, never game him a consistent role, and even criticized him to the press after putting up a double-double.

Funny how Moiso could play 51 games for a much better Hornets team with a stacked front line, but could only play 35 games for KO and a crappy Raps team.

The kid deserves a chance. Hasn't proven anything yet, but deserves a chance to prove that he can do the job or cannot do the job. 

He just turned 26 and could have 8 good years left in the league. Runs like a gazelle, doesn't get tired, jumps out of the gym, gets good post position, has a very nice jump hook, intimidator in the lane on D.

Lots of positives to work with. Let's not make the same mistake we did with Skinner and Arroyo.

He can be a solid backup PF/C, or even a starter. Much like Chris Wilcox, Kurt Thomas and other undersized bigs.

Could easily become a 8/8/1.5 guy with PT and confidence. Look at the double-doubles last year with a coach that hated him and wanted him gone.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DAllatt</b>!
> Much of kaman's game comes on the perimeter, He was often abused in the post last season. Don't get me wrong I like him but he isn't the bruiser that Hoffa was drafted to be


Huh? Kaman has a nice inside game as well a pretty good outside game. It's not just ther perimeter. He didn't get abused as much as Bosh did (physically)...he did pretty well down there. I watch a lot being in Cali.



> The truth is none of these guys need to put up good numbers the rest of our team is good enough to make up the difference. There is more than enough scoring on our roster without them, and as for rebounds bosh will benefit from a large body keeping the opposing center off of him. As well jalen, vince are above average rebounders when they want to...also benefiting from a large body. My point is we need a roll player, not a numbers guy. I don't care if he averages 10 points or 3 points. *I just want a physical front court presence.*


I want a physical front court presence too. But a good portion of the time, stats give a pretty good indicator of how they're playing (not complete, but partial). There are exceptions are the hustle guys, but do you really want our first round pick to turn into a Mark Madsen?



> I don't want coleman. I was responding to his comment that he would take anyone of those 5. Sarcasm. And dice is also a PF. We're talking center's here.


Sorry, it's just a _tad_ hard to detect sarcasm through text . But Dice can play center. He played center last year with the Suns. Not to mention that 'Sheed can play "center" as well, he did with the Blazers and it went fine. Against most teams, it doesn't matter whose playing center, especially for the Pistons. Their big men can play either spot.


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## Critic (Jun 19, 2003)

I see your point Mad Viking...

Probably wrong about the 9 and 8 prediction...

Maybe more like 7 and 5....

Does that sound reasonable?? Ive seen him play a few times and he's alot more physical than Kaman will ever be....

Back to u


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

7 and 5 is reachable. As lucky777s pointed out, he could get a lot better late in the season, and bring up the numbers.

The thing is, most casual fans would be inclined to view that as a bust. And in fact, it would be better than Dampier, Magloire & Brad Miller.

It's exactly what Elden Campbell did as a sophomore, starting most games for the Lakers; and what Brendan Haywood did last year, his 3rd.

Everyone should be happy with 7 and 5.


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## Rafaelaraujotody (Jul 16, 2004)

Hoffa will do great... people will still label him as a bust because No.8 was actually too high... but if he puts 12ppg and 8.8rpg it would be great...

The only thing i'm worried are the fouls... Hoffa had this problem in college and i hope he can stay out of trouble... But one of the things great about him is that he likes mix down the rim... he doesn't backoff anybody and will go for the body cotact everytime...


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## MentalPowerHouse (Oct 9, 2003)

He will not put up more than 10 ppg, I am not saying he can't but he wont on this team. They will not be looking for him on offense. With Vince, Rose, Bosh, Marshall... and also Mopete and Alston ahead of him... he will not get alot of shots. Don't really care what his ppg is, if he can put up 6-8 rpg and allow Bosh to play most of his time at PF I will be happy with him and he will make us a better team, better than any other rookies available at #8.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rafaelaraujotody</b>!
> Hoffa will do great... people will still label him as a bust because No.8 was actually too high... but if he puts 12ppg and 8.8rpg it would be great...


12/8.8? You make it sound like those are conservative estimates on your part. If he put's up 12/9 he'll make the Eastern All-Star team!

Don't worry about numbers. The bottom line for Araujo is that he creates space for Bosh, he opens the lane for Vince, he takes a beating from other centres but he protects our team, and he keeps other teams honest inside.



> The only thing i'm worried are the fouls... Hoffa had this problem in college and i hope he can stay out of trouble... But one of the things great about him is that he likes mix down the rim... he doesn't backoff anybody and will go for the body cotact everytime...


This is going to be an especially important issue. He needs to balance his aggressiveness with his playing time. You don't need to be a bruiser to be a good centre in this league. You need to take advantage of your size, not just use your size as a weapon.

Hopefully he is as smart as he is tough.

But keep in mind that even a 24-year old rookie is still a rookie. He is going to make some mistakes. He is going to need a adjustment period that could last a few seasons. He's got an NBA body, but we don't know if and when he'll have an NBA game.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

as long as Hoffa goes out there, takes on opposing centres with no fear, rebounds the ball well, and brings some toughness, i'd be happy with him. those things are all really givens from him though, and i think he will give us some scoring, and i know he has the work ethic to improve his defense, which would be icing on the cake.


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

People get it...they really get it!


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## Rafaelaraujotody (Jul 16, 2004)

> 12/8.8? You make it sound like those are conservative estimates on your part. If he put's up 12/9 he'll make the Eastern All-Star team!


Yeah... sorry about that... but i really like the guy... giving more though and beeing more realistic... 9ppg and 7.5rpg sounds more ok... But he's not going to score just that... his nunbers will increase by the end of the Season IMO... although i don't see him averaging more than 9rpg at all... 8 or 8.5 at best... his vertical leap is really smal..

His jumper and post moves g into a diferent direction... he will get used to it and will score 12 ppg by the end of the season... maybe 14... but that's pushing a little

The most important thing is that he will not backoff of ANY player... and will give guts and spirit to the team...


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rafaelaraujotody</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah... sorry about that... but i really like the guy... giving more though and beeing more realistic... 9ppg and 7.5rpg sounds more ok... But he's not going to score just that... his nunbers will increase by the end of the Season IMO... although i don't see him averaging more than 9rpg at all... 8 or 8.5 at best... his vertical leap is really smal..
> ...


I really, really don't think we'll see Araujo average 12-14 points per game. 

We don't really need him to score that much, he is here to mainly to rebound and provide a big body. And to score that much he would have to be our 3rd-4th option, but he will be behind VC, Rose, Bosh, Alvin, and Marshall when he comes off the bench. 

A more realistic expectation of Hoffa's stats would be around 6 PTS, 6 REB, IMO.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

All my work has not gone for naught. 

Finally, we have reasonable expectations for the man.

:yes:


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> A more realistic expectation of Hoffa's stats would be around 6 PTS, 6 REB, IMO.


Yep, that's what I'm thinking. It's crazy some of these predictions people come up for Araujo (and Bosh). Araujo won't come into the league in his rookie season as a top 10 center so people will have to stop projecting top 10 center stats.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> 
> 
> And to score that much he would have to be our 3rd-4th option, but he will be behind VC, Rose, Bosh, Alvin, and Marshall when he comes off the bench.


I somehow doubt that Ujo will be coming off the bench, after the allstar break in any case. You're right that he won't be a main option but that doesn't mean he won't get a few shots every game. He has some ability to get out on the break and hopefully great ability to hit open shots. I don't think 8-10 points is unrealistic production as a starter.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Shaq
Ming
Ilgauskas
Curry
Brad Miller
Magloire
Dampier
Blount

Those are the eight, count 'em, EIGHT NBA centers who managed to score 10ppg last season. 

It would be a tremendous achievement for Araujo to join that group in his rookie season.


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## esco_rrr (Aug 14, 2004)

Hoffa = 7ppg and 8 rbds.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> Shaq
> Ming
> Ilgauskas
> ...


Your forgot to mention Bosh, Wallace (Ben had 9.5, Sheed 16), Dirk (was playing center most nights), Lorenzen Wright had 9.4, Brian Skinner, Vlade Divac, and last but not least Jason Collier

The fact is that most NBA centers getting more than 25 mpg are getting 8+ ppg.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

:laugh:


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## foul_balls (Jun 25, 2004)

Thought I would toss my useless predictions into the mix. Realistically, I can't see Hoffa averaging more than 5 ppg and 5 rpg. Bosh himself averaged 11.5/7.4 per game playing heavy minutes, and he was a Can'T miss prospect. Some of you have Hoffa averaging more than BOSH! 

5ppg and 6-7 rpg and being in the rotation for 25 min a game, would be a success in year 1, in my opinion.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

*Araujo* was the best center available and he can help now but i think we can do something better like trade that pick for 2 jazz picks and select

*Pavel* and *Jammer* that teal could be a lot better Pavel is a prospect but we could use Jammer at pg position and use the *MLE* in a quality center and not in Rafer but thats the *Past* and we need look into the *future* and lets hope i'm wrong and Araujo is a beast. 

I'm not waiting to Araujo Score a lot of points i dont care if he score 3 ppg but if he can average more than 7rpg in his rookie yr make good defense, and *push* Bosh in the practice so he can develop faster I'll be happy.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

How about playing Marshall at center? 6'9", can rebound and block, worthy of starting somewhere.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

> How about playing Marshall at center? 6'9", can rebound and block, worthy of starting somewhere.


Your kidding right, Marshall cant even guard the better PF's in the league, sure he puts up big stats but he also gets eaten up by stronger competition, Hoffa is going to do fine, by midseason most of you will be heaping praise on him


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> How about playing Marshall at center? 6'9", can rebound and block, worthy of starting somewhere.


Why don't we just pull out a white flag on defense then? .


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> How about playing Marshall at center? 6'9", can rebound and block, worthy of starting somewhere.


haha, and watch the adonal foyle's drop 50 on us every night?

like hbwoy said, marshall is a bad enough defender at PF, he would get absolutely ripped at the 5 spot.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Onyell Marshall?


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> Your forgot to mention Bosh, Wallace (Ben had 9.5, Sheed 16), Dirk (was playing center most nights), Lorenzen Wright had 9.4, Brian Skinner, Vlade Divac, and last but not least Jason Collier
> 
> The fact is that most NBA centers getting more than 25 mpg are getting 8+ ppg.


Bosh is not a center, but he did play there so I will give you that one.

Sheed is certainly not a center. Dirk did not play mostly at center, and is certainly not a center. Brian Skinner is certainly not a center.

And to state the obvious, 9.5, 9.4 and 9.9(Vlade) are all <10.

Jason Collier - 20 games? DNQ.


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