# Hate-fest on Manu



## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

Aside from the people hating on Manu on these boards, the media has started to hate on Manu as well:





> Bernie Lincicome of the Rocky Mountain News in Denver thinks Carmelo Anthony should go instead.
> 
> "This is not to say that (Carmelo) Anthony should be on the team instead of Ginobili. Not at all. This is to say that almost anybody should be on the team instead of Ginobili. Chris Webber for one. Mike Bibby for another. Tony Parker, Brad Miller, Lamar Odom.”



Another hater 



:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 






How can people hate on Manu so much? The guy is one of the most well-mannered and respectable players there is, but everyone hates the guy. Oh well, I can understand why Denver is mad. Manu stayed in SA and left them with the likes of Voshon Lenard and Greg Buckner to play SG. Oh, and Carmelo Anthony? Complete crap. He needs to get his team to sniff mediocrity before Carmelo can be taken into consideration.


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## Nikos (Jun 5, 2002)

Why, where else are your reading hate about Manu?


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

Unfortunately, saying someone doesn't deserve to make the All-Star game is not the same as hating a player. If a lot of people were saying they hope Manu Ginobili dies in a car accident tomorrow, you might call that a hate-fest.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> Unfortunately, saying someone doesn't deserve to make the All-Star game is not the same as hating a player. If a lot of people were saying they hope Manu Ginobili dies in a car accident tomorrow, you might call that a hate-fest.






Maybe so. Or maybe I've just seen one too many people automatically suggest he shouldn't make it various reasons.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

That's part of being disgustingly underrated like Ginobili is. If there was a better player at his position, then that's different, but Ginobili has been the 5th best guard this year (behind Kobe, Nash, McGrady, Allen) and I can't think of anyone more deserving after that. Melo? That's hilarious. Bibby? Absurd.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sir Patchwork</b>!
> That's part of being disgustingly underrated like Ginobili is. If there was a better player at his position, then that's different, but Ginobili has been the 5th best guard this year (behind Kobe, Nash, McGrady, Allen) and I can't think of anyone more deserving after that. Melo? That's hilarious. Bibby? Absurd.





How can the argument possibly be made that Bibby is more valuable to his team than Manu is to the Spurs? Who's to say Bibby is more deserving than Peja? Miller? Who's to say Webber is more deserving than his teammates? 




Manu's value to the Spurs > Bibby's value to the Kings



Spurs > Kings



Manu = All-Star

Bibby = "Snub"



3 of the 4 are facts by the way. 




I'm not roaming into the NBA board anymore about Manu and the All-Star game. Coaches decide who's an All-Star reserve and who's not, not some random guy sitting at a computer. Congrats to Manu.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> Maybe so. Or maybe I've just seen one too many people automatically suggest he shouldn't make it various reasons.


I think what's really happening is, a lot of people are upset that a player they like, didn't make the team. So they look over the All-Star roster and find the the guy on there with the worst stats. Bingo, it's Manu Ginobili, he must be the player to blame that my guy didn't make the All-Star team.

I agree it's silly the way a lot of people (especially Kings fans) are getting all worked up over a game that means nothing, but calling it a hate-fest seems extreme.


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## Nikos (Jun 5, 2002)

Yeah, I don't know about hatefest.

Maybe this guy who wrote the article, but not neccesarily people who might say Webber or someone like that deserved a trip more. But obviously Webber is not a guard, but you know what Im saying.

They look at pure stats, and Ginobilis do not grab you, unless you look at them from a PER MINUTE perspective.

Manus an easy target. I do not have a problem with some people saying a few people were more deserving. But for those who state thatpretty much any player averaging over 18ppg was EASILY more deserving, well then that is sort of borderline dislike or ignorance. Especially if they are basing their opinions on pure stats. 

I guess in general its not hate. But the article is pretty bad in saying how pretty much any King easily deserved it over Manu etc......

Are there a lot of others saying it in that context as well?


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

manu shouldn't be an allstar and i doubt you would have really had much of a chance to make the team had his coach not been the coach of the team.

stats are points, rebounds, assists, steals, block.

manu - 15.8, 4.5, 3.9, 1.75, .4
joe johnson - 16.4, 5.6, 3.6, .76, .3
maggette - 21.1, 5.8, 3.4, 1, .1
jason richardson - 22.5, 6.2, 3.8, 1.5, .4
bibby - 18.5, 4.4, 6.3, 1.5, .4
carmelo - 20, 5.6, 2.9, 1.05, .3
peja - 20.3, 4.3, 1.9, 1.2, .2

now i know stats aren't everything but manu's stats are arguably the least impressive out of all those guys. i'm really still not sure how he made the team. and it's not like lots of people are talking about manu making the team. from what i've seen, it usually isn't really even mentioned except that he's a first time allstar.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> 
> 
> I think what's really happening is, a lot of people are upset that a player they like, didn't make the team. So they look over the All-Star roster and find the the guy on there with the worst stats. Bingo, it's Manu Ginobili, he must be the player to blame that my guy didn't make the All-Star team.
> ...






That's reasonable. 




I called this a "Hate-fest" on Manu because nobody outside of Spurs fans thinks the guy belongs. People are talking about how absurd it is that Player X from Team A didn't get on, and how Player Y from Team B didn't get on and what not......it's disrespect. If you've watched more than enough Spurs games, you know how valuable Manu has been to the Spurs. You can only take so much "This guy doesn't belong" statements until it bothers you.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> I called this a "Hate-fest" on Manu because nobody outside of Spurs fans thinks the guy belongs. People are talking about how absurd it is that Player X from Team A didn't get on, and how Player Y from Team B didn't get on and what not......it's disrespect. If you've watched more than enough Spurs games, you know how valuable Manu has been to the Spurs. You can only take so much "This guy doesn't belong" statements until it bothers you.


what if manu didn't make the allstar team? would you think he had been snubbed?


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

Stats stats stats. 






It's a shame how much stats rule a person's opinion on a player. 





Spurs have been one of the best teams in the league all season long, and Manu has been one of the best players on that team all season long. The coaches voted him in based on value to the Spurs. He's been extremely valuable to one of the best teams in the league. As for Bibby and Peja, there isn't an easy answer to which one has been more valuable to his team. Plus, the Kings have been looking up at three teams in the West all season long. Tough crap for them.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> what if manu didn't make the allstar team? would you think he had been snubbed?





No. Believe it or not, this team winning a championship is my main focus. If along the way are guys are individually rewarded for it, great. I'll congratulate them and move on. If they aren't rewarded, what can you do about it? I love Manu, but I'm a Spurs fan above Manu fan. If he or Parker didn't make it, I would have been a little disapppointed, but overall I know for a fact I wouldn't have thrown a hissy fit about it, and no one can tell me otherwise.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> No. Believe it or not, this team winning a championship is my main focus. If along the way are guys are individually rewarded for it, great. I'll congratulate them and move on. If they aren't rewarded, what can you do about it? I love Manu, but I'm a Spurs fan above Manu fan. If he or Parker didn't make it, I would have been a little disapppointed, but overall I know for a fact I wouldn't have thrown a hissy fit about it, and no one can tell me otherwise.


that's pretty much the point i was trying to make. had manu not made the allstar game, no one would have even thought twice about it. i think that is at least some indication that he may not deserve to be there. and while stats aren't everything(which i said in my earlier post too), stats are something. and while the spurs have been the best team in the league so far, it's not like manu is the whole team. duncan and arguably tony parker have both been more important for the team. i'm not saying that manu is a bad player, i just don't think he deserves to be an allstar.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> that's pretty much the point i was trying to make. had manu not made the allstar game, no one would have even thought twice about it. i think that is at least some indication that he may not deserve to be there. and while stats aren't everything(which i said in my earlier post too), stats are something. and while the spurs have been the best team in the league so far, it's not like manu is the whole team. duncan and arguably tony parker have both been more important for the team. i'm not saying that manu is a bad player, i just don't think he deserves to be an allstar.






Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the coaches pick who's deserving and who's not. According to them, he's deserving. That's all that matters.


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## XxMia_9xX (Oct 5, 2002)

i dunno i mean like i'm way glad manu is an all star, but like i just think parker should be there more than him... i think it's the fact that manu is a flashier player and like has a support from charles barkley, he got more attention than anyone else... 

i just think parker is more important to the team than him, but hey too late now.. manu is an all star and that's it. i'm so glad manu got voted in... manu better bust out his dunking and crazy shot skills!


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

meh, I hear that kinda stuff every day being a Yao fan, and Yao's the nicest guy on the planet.

This kinda stuff happens every year - Yao doesn't deserve to be an all-star, Vince Carter doesn't deserve to be an all-star... I guess Manu is the most borderline all-star this year.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

check out the current poll at nba.com!  

Which first-time All-Star is playing the best?

LeBron James
44%

*Manu Ginobili
25%*

Amaré Stoudemire
15%

Dwyane Wade
10%

Gilbert Arenas
5%

Rashard Lewis
1%

Antawn Jamison
0%


Total Responses: 88124


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## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

Manu deserves to be there. Yes he has the least impressive stats out of the players rocketeer listed, but he has been the most valuable to his team. He has stepped up when TD has been out or not playing well, or when TP has his inconsistent nights. Rocketeer, what you failed to mention is that although Manu only averages 16/4.5/4(and almost 2 steals), he does that while shooting 48% FG's and only playing 30 minutes per game.

Here are the FG%'s and MPG of the players you listed earlier:

Joe Johnson - 40 MPG, 45% FG
Corey Maggette - 36 MPG, 41%
Jason Richardson - 38 MPG, 45%
Mike Bibby - 38 MPG, 46%
Carmelo Anthony - 36 MPG, 40%
Peja Stojackovic - 39 MPG, 45%

He could average 20 ppg and such but he plays minimal minutes and he doesn't pad his stats.


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## mr_french_basketball (Jul 3, 2003)

*Manu is the most deserving Spur this season*

I have to say I'm a Tony Parker fan, but Manu derserves to be an All-Star more than anybody on the Spurs team.

Moreover, my ratings are clear about it.

Best Spurs this season :
1. Manu 7.30
2. Parker 7.23
3. Duncan 6.96

Most consistent Spurs this season :
1. Manu
2. Duncan
3. Rasho

The energy and consistency he brings to the Spurs cannot be measured like a stat, but my ratings take that into account...


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## FreeMason Jr. (Jul 12, 2004)

*Re: Manu is the most deserving Spur this season*



> Originally posted by <b>mr_french_basketball</b>!
> Manu derserves to be an All-Star more than anybody on the Spurs team.


agreed:yes:


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## Moe The Bartender (May 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> manu shouldn't be an allstar and i doubt you would have really had much of a chance to make the team had his coach not been the coach of the team.
> 
> stats are points, rebounds, assists, steals, block.
> ...


I think the NBA coaches, who are much more knowledgable than you or your stats, think otherwise...is there a stat for that? Hmmm, they must know something the stats just can't produce. Using stats as a formula, the league MVP would never be the most deserving player...it would be who wins the scoring title. The word you are searching for is intangibles, when it comes to Manu. He brings it every night and I would argue with anybody that he is a better team player than any of those guys you mention above.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

I'm always puzzled why people are so quick to throw out the phrases "hater", "hate-fest", and other such phrases. Because some people do not believe that Manu deserves to be in the all-star game does not mean they hate the guy. It simply means they think there are more deserving players.

For the record, I'm a fan of Manu and think he's very deserving of his all-star selection. Congrats.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Moe The Bartender</b>!
> I think the NBA coaches, who are much more knowledgable than you or your stats, think otherwise...is there a stat for that? Hmmm, they must know something the stats just can't produce. Using stats as a formula, the league MVP would never be the most deserving player...it would be who wins the scoring title. The word you are searching for is intangibles, when it comes to Manu. He brings it every night and I would argue with anybody that he is a better team player than any of those guys you mention above.


what you say there sounds nice, but a lot of it isn't true. not everything can be measured by stats, but stats can tell a lot about how good a player is. winning a scoring title doesn't mean the player has the best stats, it means they score the most points. points are not the only stat. i did leave off an important stat though that texan pointed out. i forgot to have fg% and minutes per game. i just wasn't thinking about those at that time. so when you stretch the stats out to 48 minutes, manu measures up well against the other guys i listed. his stats are pretty much right online with their's.

minutes are an interesting stat though. many people see it as a bad thing that yao only plays 31 minutes so that reflects negatively on yao. but then they say that manu's stats should really be better because he only plays 30 minutes. so with that people seem to think it can go both ways however they seem fit when they want to under or overrate a certain player for whatever reason.

and your statement about nba coaches just isn't true. you say that nba coaches are more knowledgable than me and my stats. the stats aren't mine. the stats are earned by the players. they are what they are. manu was voted into the allstar game because he is arguably the 2nd best player on arguably the best team. and he is the worst of the allstar guards in the west. and like i said before, if manu wasn't on the allstar team, no one would even really think twice about it. there is a reason for that.


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## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

> minutes are an interesting stat though. many people see it as a bad thing that yao only plays 31 minutes so that reflects negatively on yao. but then they say that manu's stats should really be better because he only plays 30 minutes. so with that people seem to think it can go both ways however they seem fit when they want to under or overrate a certain player for whatever reason.


People think that its bad Yao only plays 31 minutes per game, b/c thats all he can play. He is not conditioned well enough to play 40+ minutes and in close games the Rockets need him for that amount of time.

On the other hand, it is a good thing that Manu only plays 30 minutes per game b/c that way he is fresh at the end of the season. He will play 35 to 40+ in games we need him to, but he averages so few minutes b/c he is taken out in blow outs and b/c the Spurs are so deep at G. 

We are not trying to over/under rate someone, these are two totally different scenarios.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>texan</b>!
> People think that its bad Yao only plays 31 minutes per game, b/c thats all he can play. He is not conditioned well enough to play 40+ minutes and in close games the Rockets need him for that amount of time.
> 
> On the other hand, it is a good thing that Manu only plays 30 minutes per game b/c that way he is fresh at the end of the season. He will play 35 to 40+ in games we need him to, but he averages so few minutes b/c he is taken out in blow outs and b/c the Spurs are so deep at G.
> ...


i had a reply all written out, but the board messed up and i lost it.

but i disagree with you. the spurs have had 23 games decided by less than 10 points(so not a blowout). manu has played 35+ in only 10 games. so you're him only playing when the game is close theory doesn't seem to be true, because there have been several close games(at least 13) that he hasn't played the 35+ that you specified.


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## FreeMason Jr. (Jul 12, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> i had a reply all written out, but the board messed up and i lost it.
> 
> but i disagree with you. the spurs have had 23 games decided by less than 10 points(so not a blowout). manu has played 35+ in only 10 games. so you're him only playing when the game is close theory doesn't seem to be true, because there have been several close games(at least 13) that he hasn't played the 35+ that you specified.


There are many reasons that could effect that.

1. Pop put the scrubs in too soon (like he usually does) and the scrubs blew the lead.
2. Pop went big instead of small down the stretch
3. Gino didn't play much time at the begining
4. Devin, Brent, etc. was hott and Pop thought they could help the spurs better down the stretch.
5. Gino was in foul trouble
6. Gino was injured

There are many other reasons that I'm too tired to think of, but I'm sure you get the picture.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ezealen</b>!
> There are many reasons that could effect that.
> 
> 1. Pop put the scrubs in too soon (like he usually does) and the scrubs blew the lead.
> ...


yes. and they are also many other reasons he may not have played as many minutes and there are lots of reasons yao doesn't always play as many minutes and there are a lot of reasons why other players should be an allstar above manu.

i just feel that it is stupid to use a characteristic that people feel is negative about yao to justify manu being an allstar.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

Well rocketeer, the only thing left is for you to take it up with the coaches. Ask them why they voted him in. We're giving you reasons why we think he should be in, and you reject every single one of them. He made it for some reason. 






Manu has been a very valuable player to a team that has been among the league's best all season long. That's the most basic way of putting it. If the Spurs weren't doing this well, he wouldn't be on the team.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> I'm always puzzled why people are so quick to throw out the phrases "hater", "hate-fest", and other such phrases. Because some people do not believe that Manu deserves to be in the all-star game does not mean they hate the guy. It simply means they think there are more deserving players.
> 
> For the record, I'm a fan of Manu and think he's very deserving of his all-star selection. Congrats.







Are you familar with the "slang" term for hate? "Hate" as in what rappers/hop hop people say? When you take it literal, it doesn't make sense really. "Hate" like I'm saying is that about 90% of the people on this board don't think he's "deserving" because he hasn't done this, hasn't done that. Stats are the most popular reasoning. They refuse to take into account how good the Spurs have been this year and how valuable Manu has been to the Spurs. The Spurs are a three-man team, and the coaches recognized that either Parker or Manu deserves to make it. Notice how I didn't put quotes that time around the word deserving. That's because there's a difference between what the coaches deserving, and the fans "deserving." If they guy is playing in the All-Star game, he's deserving. Why else would he have been put in? 




If you take "Hate" literally, then the only Hate-fest thread out of the three that makes sense is the Bruce Bowen one. People seriously hate him.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> Well rocketeer, the only thing left is for you to take it up with the coaches. Ask them why they voted him in. We're giving you reasons why we think he should be in, and you reject every single one of them. He made it for some reason.
> 
> Manu has been a very valuable player to a team that has been among the league's best all season long. That's the most basic way of putting it. If the Spurs weren't doing this well, he wouldn't be on the team.


i just don't think manu deserved to be in the game. you can call it a hate fest on manu if you want, but he is clearly the least worthy of the allstar guards. and there are several players out there that have very legit cases to be allstars.


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## FreeMason Jr. (Jul 12, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> i just don't think manu deserved to be in the game. you can call it a hate fest on manu if you want, but he is clearly the least worthy of the allstar guards. and there are several players out there that have very legit cases to be allstars.


You really don't fallow Manu's game do you? If you go by stats then of course you're going to think that he doesn't deserve to make it. Manu's more of a role player if anything. How can you have an All-Star game without one of the most entertaining players in league?! That's what it's all about afterall, entertainment.....and ratings.

Oh and I'd say Kobe is the least worthy of the Allstar guards


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## Moe The Bartender (May 7, 2004)

Bottom line: he's in, he deserves to be in, the coaches feel the same way. No evidence has been presented to prove otherwise...case dismissed!


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> i just don't think manu deserved to be in the game. you can call it a hate fest on manu if you want, but he is clearly the least worthy of the allstar guards. and there are several players out there that have very legit cases to be allstars.






Everyone has their own opinion, but the thing I'm seeing is that Manu's being undervalued by many many fans. He's a good talent. He's been a very good contributor for the Spurs. Numbers-wise, it is a stretch for him to be considered for the ASG, but we're not talking fantasy basketball. The coaches recognized Manu's contributions, and they felt he deserved to be in. As a Spurs fan, I'm happy. I was promoting Parker to be a ASG canidate for at least a couple of months and he didn't get in, but you don't see Spurs fans or especially me crying about how Parker got robbed. I've personally seen many posters and publications list Parker as a "snub. " I'm mentioning that because what's automatically put on me is that I only suggest that Manu should be in the ASG because I'm a Spurs fan. Supposedly, if he didn't make it I would cry and complain about it just like the others have. Well, take Parker into account and search for a post where I whined about Parker not making it.


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