# DaJuan



## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

to Cavs fans,

Since now you got Lebron James as the foundation of the rebuilding process, what type of role Wagner is going to play for the team. Is he still going to be given the role as a scorer, while Lebron will play Magic Johnson type of role? or "it's all about LeBron"?

Because, I think Wagner is a very exciting young player you guys have. And After Lebron came to town, it seems like all the talks are about Lebron and he's kinda left out. so, can you tell me what's your view on Wagner's future on this team. Because last year, if he's not injured he's suppose to be an All-rookie first teamer and could've shown a lot more

thanks


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

I also feel that Wagner is being left out in a lot of people's vision of the Cavs' future. I hear a lot about James, Davis, Miles, and Boozer -- but not so much about Wagner. I too wonder what the Cavs' fans think about his position in the franchise's future.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*...*

my take on Wagner? He's still got a lot to prove. More so than Z maintaining his health. More so than Ricky showing he is an important cog. More so than Boozer who showed he will be a factor at starting PF.

Wagner got off to the late start with the bladder infection thing, but then tore it up for a few months. But he seemed to quickly either hit the wall, or he was not able to adjust to the way defenders were playing him. Before he got hurt again and sat out the rest of the season, he was not nearly as effective.

He did show he can hit the outside shot. He did show he could take it to the rim IF he could get by his man (and often he could not). He has a nice short pull-up jumper. He did not excel at defense. He has not managed to stay healthy, and has had some knee problems flare-up already in the summer league. He did not look comfortable at PG, nor did he seem to "grow" into the role. He seemed to know to keep his mouth shut when calls went against him.

Soooo, I'd put DaJaun in the same category as someone like Diop. The potential is there, but the production needs to be seen over 70-82 games. Both are good enough to play in the NBA, not sure either is ready to be a starter in the NBA....yet....hopefully sooner rather then later they both will be!

I think Wags will exclusively come off the bench this season (barring injuries to other starters). He'll be expected to produce when he does come in, and I think he needs to show he can stay healthy. Lot of people compared him to A.I. when he was drafted, but anyone who has watched them both, know they are not at the same level, and don't play the same style. The only thing they have in common, is that they are both undersized SGs.

Some people may not like this, but if everything continues as it is, I think Ricky D and Darius M will both average around 34-38 minutes per game. LeBron will average 20-28 maybe. So Wagner will get 20+ minutes per game easy.... but not as a starter. That is not always easy for a young kid to do... but he's gonna have to keep his head in the game even when he is on the bench, so he is ready to hit the court on the fly night after night. Maybe not the role he was hoping for, but he's gotta prove he's a starter to be a starter.


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

Thank you -- very insightful to us outsiders


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## Cam*Ron (Apr 13, 2003)

I think he might be the 6th man at the beginning of the season and work his way into the starting lineup. He has that confidence like while he is on the court, you can see it in his face that " no one can stop me"


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

Where would he start though? I imagine that Davis is your 2 and James will be your 1.


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## Cam*Ron (Apr 13, 2003)

I think Miles would be better off the bench but anyway:

Start of Season 
C: Ilgauskas
PF: Boozer
SF: Miles
SG: Davis
PG: James

Midway thru the First Half of the Season 

*DEFENSE* 
C: Ilgauskas 
PF: Boozer 
SF: Lebron 
SG: Davis
PG: Wagner

We will be able to run our offense through Ricky, Dajuan, and Lebron with Dajuan bringing the ball up the court.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I think he'll be coming off the bench for at least half the year as well. Just so they can keep him healthy. If he's still running good by mid-season, they might plug him into the starting lineup. But I don't know. Miles and Lebron seem to have bonded very quickly and their chemistry on the court might keep Wagner's minutes down.

I think Darius and Wagner are basically going to be splitting up the minutes. I don't think Wagner will take much of Lebron or Ricky's time. Kevin Ollie will also see minutes in the backcourt. You may actually see more Ollie than Wagner depending on how Wagner responds to coming off the bench. It's really hard to come off the bench and produce. Hopefully Wagner figures it out.

the biggest question to me right now about wagner is just his durability. Can he get in a full 82 games?


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## kennedy (Jun 4, 2003)

In 2-3 years when he'll be scoring 25+ ppg we'll all be laughing at this thread.


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## Cam*Ron (Apr 13, 2003)

Darius isn't self-motivated, the only reason he is showing up in the Summer League is because he sees the lights and knows he will be on TV.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

*Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> my take on Wagner? He's still got a lot to prove. More so than Z maintaining his health. More so than Ricky showing he is an important cog. More so than Boozer who showed he will be a factor at starting PF.
> 
> Wagner got off to the late start with the bladder infection thing, but then tore it up for a few months. But he seemed to quickly either hit the wall, or he was not able to adjust to the way defenders were playing him. Before he got hurt again and sat out the rest of the season, he was not nearly as effective.
> ...


thanks for the response. True, very informative for me as an outsider. 

I assume you mean that DaJuan is in the same level as Diop in a way that both are yet to play 82 games. Because no matter what DaJuan's has to prove, he's definitely not at the same level as Diop. Diop has "project" written all over him, while Wagner can easily score 12 - 15 ppg given that he's healthy the whole season. However, I do agree with the concern questioning his durability. And I agree that I think he should be coming off the bench next season, he can be the Cavs's Bobby Jackson at this stage of his career. But seriously, long term, I like him better than Ricky Davis.

As for the Cavs starters for next season, I like:

C - Z
PF - Boozer
SF - James
SG - Davis
PG - Ollie 

Ollie, Good signing ! he's a solid veteran, he can be your PG while James is learning (If James is really going to play PG and be Magic Johnson). but, IMO, I see James is more of a point forward like Scottie Pippen who does a little of everything. Let's say the upgrade of Scottie Pippen.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>RSP83</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I assume you mean that DaJuan is in the same level as Diop in a way that both are yet to play 82 games. Because no matter what DaJuan's has to prove, he's definitely not at the same level as Diop. Diop has "project" written all over him, while Wagner can easily score 12 - 15 ppg given that he's healthy the whole season. However, I do agree with the concern questioning his durability. And I agree that I think he should be coming off the bench next season, he can be the Cavs's Bobby Jackson at this stage of his career. But seriously, long term, I like him better than Ricky Davis.


Yes, Wags and Diop are the same in terms of needing to be able to play 70+ games, AND, neither is at the level people think they will reach. Obviously they are different type players, but Diop is expected to take over the starting C spot whenever Z is done, and Wagner is expected to be a starter too (though nobody knows if that will be at PG or SG!). Both Diop and DaJaun have shown flashes... Wags with his shooting, Diop with his defense... but they are very much in the same boat, and that boat is called the U.S.S. POTENTIAL

This is just my opinion, but I do not see Wags being a better player than Ricky. I really think the height factor is huge (no pun intended!)... and that is something that is gonna prevent Wagner from being a full-time starter at SG (barring injuries). I think his future is a #6 man off the bench... like Detroit's old Vinnie "the Microwave" Johnson... come in and light things up. Spot starter. Reliable sub. In today's league you have to be extra-ordinary to man any position undersized... which is why you see very few 5"10 starting PG's, and very few 6'5 starting PF's.... there are some, but they've got to be really good.... and I'm not convinced Wagner is THAT good to be a starting SG. He did it in HS, and 1 year in college.... he needs to prove it again in the bigs.

That being said, I'm glad we have him, and he is a great insurance policy for us (if healthy).


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## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

One thing I have noticed about Wags is he doesnt have the incedibly long arms of A.I which is why he doesnt finish as well as A.I. I like his Jumper he very quick, although not as quick as A.I but hes stronger. His Defenisve right now isnt that great and he seems to dissapear from the game from time to time. I think given the youth of the team LeBron will play 30 + minutes becasue they will need him on the floor.


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## Cam*Ron (Apr 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TyGuy</b>!
> One thing I have noticed about Wags is he doesnt have the incedibly long arms of A.I which is why he doesnt finish as well as A.I. I like his Jumper he very quick, although not as quick as A.I but hes stronger. His Defenisve right now isnt that great and he seems to dissapear from the game from time to time. I think given the youth of the team LeBron will play 30 + minutes becasue they will need him on the floor.


If you are going by what you seen tonight he might not have been as agressive as he normally would have because he is hurt and has been hurt since his first summer game. The reason he is always hurt is because he doesn't have a healthy diet and isn't in real top athletic shape to able to play a whole year in the NBA. I hope he figures this out.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TyGuy</b>!
> One thing I have noticed about Wags is he doesnt have the incedibly long arms of A.I which is why he doesnt finish as well as A.I. I like his Jumper he very quick, although not as quick as A.I but hes stronger. His Defenisve right now isnt that great and he seems to dissapear from the game from time to time. I think given the youth of the team LeBron will play 30 + minutes becasue they will need him on the floor.


Wags has very long arms. Not long like AI but they are long enough and Mongolmike. I dont understand how you can compare the 2 when last year was Dajuan's 1st in the league and really hadnt had to deal with injuries before last year?


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## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

His arms a bit longer then average but they arent freakishly long like a.i's


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

I think Dajuan has longer arms than A.I.

I believe the draft had Wagner's reached measured at 6'8.

They came up with 2 categories based on arm length: condors (long-arms) and t-rexes (short-arms). Wagner was one of the condors.

Iverson is really 5'10, so I would be totally shocked if he had a 6'9 or 6'10 reach. Since he is skinner than Dajuan, Allen's arms seem more viney.


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## DocBakk (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm a huge Dajuan fan, but I'm watching him in these summer league games and he plays like he's hurting almost. I hope he can get healthy for you guys by the beginning of the season.

Also today against the Hawks Lebron is dropping some incredible DIMES.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*...*



> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> I dont understand how you can compare the 2 when last year was Dajuan's 1st in the league and really hadnt had to deal with injuries before last year?


BEEZ, I'm comparing the expectations/potential that neither player has met yet. They are not identical in size, or style, nor even similar restrictions both players have faced. Diop's 1st year was a washout. He's faced injuries too. He had hype which he hasn't met (he runs like a gazelle, he's awesome on defense, he can jump out of the gym, etc.) Wags had expectations too... but he did come into the league more ready than Diop. But people compared Wags to A.I., said he's an unstoppable scorer, that he has an NBA ready body, that he is cat quick with strength.... neither player met the early expectations. 

I think both players have a lot to prove this year.... and part of it is they have to prove they belong in contention for a starting role! In fact, (going off topic) every Cav has a lot to prove this year. We have no sure thing.

Z has to prove again that he can remain healthy for a whole year.
(I think he will be fine)

Booz has to prove that what he did last year was no fluke.
(I think he will be even better this year)

Ricky has to prove he can adapt to a new coach, and that he can play next to another stud. (I think he will put up similar numbers this year)

Miles has to prove that last year was an abberation.
(Early indications look good... plus it's a contract year!)

LeBron has to prove everything.
(He will never meet all the hype, but he will be good.... but he will also got worn down if his minutes aren't limited)

Ollie has to prove that he is worth his contract.
(Won't be able to do it. Too big of a contract for a bench role)

Diop has to prove he can stay out of foul trouble, hit some open jumpers, and be able to play 20-24 minutes per game if necessary. (I don't think so. Still to raw)

Wagner needs to prove that he can stay healthy, that he can adjust to the defenses put on him, that he can be a quasi-point guard when needed. (Health is the key. If he stays healthy, he'll get enough minutes to make an impact.... off the bench)

Mihm needs to prove that he can be a journeyman PF/C... (well, I think he has already proven that.)


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Cavs lineup:
Offense
C-Zydrunas Illgaukas
PF-Carlos Boozer
SF-Ricky Davis
SG-Dajuan Wagner
PG-LeBron James

Defense
C-Zydrunas Illgaukas
PF-Carlos Boozer
SF-LeBron James
SG-Ricky Davis
PG-Dajuan Wagner

The thing about Wagner, he may be to slow to guard PG's, and he has to stay healthy, and as you noticed that lineup leaves out Miles, I think they'll trade him for depth on the bench.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> 
> Ollie has to prove that he is worth his contract.
> (Won't be able to do it. Too big of a contract for a bench role)


Isn't the contract only 2 million a year? Granted it's over 5 years--but isn't that about market value for a good backup point guard?

I personally think Ollie has already proven himself worthy of a contract like that in this league. He deserves some security and a place to stay.

I don't know. You tell me. Is 2 mill a year too much for a bench player?

I didn't think so, but what is the average salary for players of that level?

Isn't Diop's rookie contract about that much?


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## AstheFranchiz2K2 (May 24, 2003)

I really like Wags but i think he is overrated. He can score, but his percenteges are terrible. IMO FG %, is often overlooked when rating a player. And you could make an arrgument that he was injured and it was his rookie year but even in college his FG % werent great. These days even gaurds have high percentages in the collegiate level (such as Dwayne Wade, Jarvis Hayes, Marcus Banks, etc..) A low % means he has to take much more shots to score his points. He does get to the free throw line often which is good. He has loads of potential but he will never beat out Davis for the starting spot unless he can show more consistancy and unselfishness.


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Isn't the contract only 2 million a year? Granted it's over 5 years--but isn't that about market value for a good backup point guard?
> ...


It's for $3 million a year, which is probably more than he should get. I personally believe that the $2 million you thought he was getting is about what he deserves.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Yeah. I thought it was for 2. 3 is a slight overpay. But I guess that's the biproduct of the bidding war with the Bucks.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*...*

I dunno.... what HAS Ollie proven? 9 teams in 6 years? How can any player prove anything.... and if he indeed did prove something, why was he continually traded or let go? 9 teams in 6 years??? Come on.... And even if he was only given 2 mil a year, yes, I feel that too is overpaid. Slightly over the minimum would work in my view. Disagree? Check out what Boozer got paid last year, and this year before you disagree.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

As far as Ollie: He's been very solid everywhere he's gone. He has NBA finals experience.

Apparently he led the NBA in assist per turnover at 4.04 last year playing about 26 minutes a game.

Isn't that about what we'd be looking for? He's a good defender as well.

So we get a nice solid guard to come in and get backup minutes for Lebron at point and not do anything to hurt the team.

He's not going to threaten Lebron for the starting job, but he's probably as nice a point the cavs could get for what they needed a point to do.

I don't know. I'm just of the opinion that Ollie is one of those underrated pros who quietly does his job and I'm happy he finally can settle down.

9 teams in 6 years is too much.


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