# No More C-Unit After 2004-05



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

I'm going to call it right now...

First off, I've said it before, JC should write "I'm Gone" on the back of his jersey...

He'd have to be insane to want to remain a Bull, and some of you would have to be insane if you think he's just a MLE player...

He will get paid this summer, and Pax won't match...

As far as I'm concerned, if Pax wanted JC on this team he wouldn't have drafted Hinrich.

I know that statement is going to be interpreted, and I'm ready to debate it if need be...you can read between the lines.

I think Pax will resign if the highest offer for JC was the MLE, there's too much talent there, and the MLE price would be a bargin for a player of JC's talent.

If that were to happen, which it WON'T, JC will eventually become a 6th man on the Bulls to come in and provide some offense off the bench.

Everything possible will continue to be done in order to keep JC from ever being a star on the Bulls.

I didn't post this before, but I heard some fans behind me at the Heat game talking, and one said, "I think #1 is their best player, they'd be much better with him and Wade, they didn't really need Hinrich, he would have been a better fit for us, he's alright, but thank God we took Wade".

This season has determined JC's future on the Bulls, if he could be a star SG, alright, they pay him, he stays, it's clear he can not. He's a much better player from the PG position, but that position is LOCKED.

Guaranteed Pax won't trade down to draft Devin Harris, Telfair, Livingston, etc. Why give Hinrich any competetion for the job? 

It's his to keep or keep...

Doesn't mean he doesn't deserve it, but there's more behind it than what goes on on the court...

Moving on...

If we do draft Okafor, bye bye Tyson...

No point having him rot on the bench to the point of no trade value, and he'll be shipped out at some point...

2 down, 1 to go..

Eddy...

Eddy I think is the only member of C cubed that has a shot to stay, but I don't think he will...

I think next year a better team offers a max contract, and does EVERYTHING possible to turn off the Bulls from matching, such as loading all the money up front, Eddy publicly saying, please Bulls don't resign me, maybe even a sign and trade could take place...

Not sure after another losing season where a miracle would be required to win 30 games that Jerry is willing to hand out a max contract to anyone.

Then again that all depends on next year, maybe Eddy shows up at the beginning of next year and is a beast...

Skiles quits by all-star break?

Pax is canned at the end of next year?

C-Unit is no more by the end of the next season?

Who knows...

As it is, none of these guys are performing at their best, but at the same time, how can they?

They're all still auditioning.

Pax watches from above, are they worth the money or not?

I don't know, they gotta show me something, they gotta show me what I want to see, and if not, see ya...

Only player on this team that can go out there and play with reckless abandonment is Kirk Hinrich.

Maybe even Dupree, Linton, and Pargo...

As long as those guys dive into ball racks and stay after practice to work on their jumpshots, there will always be a jersey for them.

Problem is, we'll see them, but we won't see wins, and the guys we couldn't wait for to 'get it' will 'get it' in other situations...

The track record is there to support that theory, moreso than the fantasy that Skiles and Pax will get everything turned around, and we all be happy again in the blink of an eye, Deng, or Okafor...


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## 2cool4skool (Mar 30, 2003)

Agreed. But why not just blow up the team this off-season? Pax can see that this isn't working. If we wait until 05, then we're just forfeiting a year. We have 4 (?) draft picks this year.

I'm so use to following the Chicago Bears and the NFL, where teams can turn things around in 1 year, but that really doesn't happen in the NBA. Curry doesn't play defense or rebound -- he needs to go. Crawford's best position is PG, which is nailed down by Hinrich -- he needs to go or accept a back-up position.

It seems that Chandler is the only player that will stick around. Considering that he still has a LOT of upside, and yet his trade value is about NIL. I would like to see him back-up Davis or JYD next year.

Okafor will make a fine undersized center (think Zo). The MLE will go to a wing player, there are lots available.

Hinrich
MLE
Junk Yard Pup
Chandler
Okafor

It's ugly, but it's a start. This is the most realistic scenerio. Curry and Chandler don't have nearly the trade value that most people on this board seem to think. Chandler is damaged goods and Curry can't rebound.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I think a lot of people are making a lot of assumptions about what Pax will do and they may not necessarily be correct. I will be very surprised if Pax doesn't match any offer for JC. I will also be surprised if Pax deals Chandler for anything less than an exceptional deal.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> I think a lot of people are making a lot of assumptions about what Pax will do and they may not necessarily be correct. I will be very surprised if Pax doesn't match any offer for JC. I will also be surprised if Pax deals Chandler for anything less than an exceptional deal.


I don't think Chandler's value is that high, plus next year he's a RFA, if someone really wants him, they'll just pay him and not trade for him...

I don't see it in Chicago for JC Ace...

I think you should understand if JC were really wanted by Pax, what's going on right now with JC wouldn't be going on...

Read into that one...

If JC doesn't get a high offer, yes I think Pax will match, but if someone says you're our future PG, run our team, here's 7 million for 6 years, and we'll load the contract up front, Pax will say see ya JC...

The Bulls are the only team in the league that would use this kid at SG...

We use JYD and Linton at SF, both PFs, Linton is Malik Rose with a SF body, we don't know how to use players, we've proven that time and time again...


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I think Paxson is sick of losing and wants to win now. Some of you apparently would rather wait for the hope that one day our 3C's might be a group that could yield us a semi competitive team. Yeah and when you win the lottery let me know.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

Im pretty sure that CURRY is staying in chi-town, but CHANDLER and CRAWFORD could be gone, come summer time. :yes:


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IntheBlinkofaDeng</b>!
> I think Paxson is sick of losing and wants to win now. Some of you apparently would rather wait for the hope that one day our 3C's might be a group that could yield us a semi competitive team. Yeah and when you win the lottery let me know.


I know because adding Lyntion Dupree and Shirley just screams lets win games now to everyone. 

The 3c's have sucked in a Bulls uniform but then again Pax has sucked as a a GM.I honestly wouldnt mind seeing them all gone .

Our post MJ history has shown that players tend to do better when the leave the Bulls because the Bulls dont have aclue to what they are doing .Pax on the other hand is just another notch in the Bulls belt of botching deals to bring in new blood by living in the past .


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IntheBlinkofaDeng</b>!
> I think Paxson is sick of losing and wants to win now. Some of you apparently would rather wait for the hope that one day our 3C's might be a group that could yield us a semi competitive team. Yeah and when you win the lottery let me know.


Everything Pax has done with the exception of drafting Kirk has meant a step backwards for this franchise...

Maybe he wants to win now, but he isn't winning now, and isn't making the right moves to do so...


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Bringing in Linton, Dupree, and Shirley was to bring some people in to bring some energy, life, and effort to the game in the hopes that it would carry over to some of the other players and maybe even finding a hidden gem. Our players are still the same however and they still play the same way. Next step is the bus stop if you know what I mean.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Jamal is probably worth more than the MLE to the right team. The question is -- is that right team shopping this summer? Any team really looking to invest really big bucks in JC probably would have worked a reasonable trade for him so that they could bargain with him from a position of strength. Nobody seemed all that interested.

That's not a knock on Jamal -- as I said, he would probably be worth a lot to a team that is shopping for a PG who plays Jamal's type of game, but that market doesn't appear to be all that hot right now.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> I'm going to call it right now...
> 
> First off, I've said it before, JC should write "I'm Gone" on the back of his jersey...
> ...


I got two word answer to that then.

Good riddance.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> The Bulls are the only team in the league that would use this kid at SG...


Bulls was the only that had to tolerate him jackimg up 25 shot a game and making a fraction of them. Any other team would bench him. Oops ..that actually happened here already.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> Jamal is probably worth more than the MLE to the right team. The question is -- is that right team shopping this summer? Any team really looking to invest really big bucks in JC probably would have worked a reasonable trade for him so that they could bargain with him from a position of strength. Nobody seemed all that interested.
> 
> That's not a knock on Jamal -- as I said, he would probably be worth a lot to a team that is shopping for a PG who plays Jamal's type of game, but that market doesn't appear to be all that hot right now.


No team would trade for a RFA when he doesnt have a agent they could even approach.And with Pax basically saying every chance he got how Curry and Chandler were the cornerstones and never really ever giving jamal a vote of confidence publicly he set himself up for that .

No one pays for something they can get for free .

Paxson talks to much :yes:


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: Re: No More C-Unit After 2004-05*



> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> Good riddance.


You leaving? aww...


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

I don't mean to interupt this JC fest but what is the going rate for a guard who shots 38% and 32% for 3's who is a poor defender and lost his position to a rookie. 

Seriously, JC will be a bull next year and as for JC he is not one of the top 30 guards in the game (at least yet) and cap space is too importent to spend on potential. He will be offer just over the MLE and paxson will match. Also look for him to come of the bench next year in a 6th man role.

david


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> I don't mean to interupt this JC fest but what is the going rate for a guard who shots 38% and 32% for 3's who is a poor defender and lost his position to a rookie.
> 
> Seriously, JC will be a bull next year and as for JC he is not one of the top 30 guards in the game (at least yet) and cap space is too importent to spend on potential. He will be offer just over the MLE and paxson will match. Also look for him to come of the bench next year in a 6th man role.
> ...


He lost his position?

Really?

Or was it just handed to Kirk?

JC's stats have improved every year, he's durable, he's a 6'6 PG, and he's 24 yrs. old and he's shown more than enough that he has superstar ability.

You obviously know nothing about how the business of the NBA works and you allow your hate for JC to cloud reality.

JC will get paid, and he will be another team's PG next season...

Clippers, Golden State, wouldn't surprise me...


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## dsouljah9 (Jul 9, 2002)

Well, JC has said that he wants to remain a Bull(for whatever that's worth). I think JC just needs to add more weight to his frame as well as continuing to share PG duties with Kirk.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> I don't mean to interupt this JC fest but what is the going rate for a guard who shots 38% and 32% for 3's who is a poor defender and lost his position to a rookie.
> 
> Seriously, JC will be a bull next year and as for JC he is not one of the top 30 guards in the game (at least yet) and cap space is too importent to spend on potential. He will be offer just over the MLE and paxson will match. Also look for him to come of the bench next year in a 6th man role.
> ...


What are you talking about ? What nba games are you watching ?

Is he still not starting ?Kirk and JC were our two best guards the entire season it was common sense to get them on the floor together when we traded Jalen who I considered a sf more than a sg .

There are very few players shooting a high percentage in the nba almost everyone is shooting under 45% from the field and the avergane is probably somewhere around 43% .When you factor in that most are not as bad a situation as Crawford is in being the only scorer on the team for a long time while learning a new role .I understand the defensive critcisms because he is not nearly as focused on defense as he should be .But when people make stupid comments like that when they know hes had little to no help it makes no sense.

Youre judging him based on the ****ty position he was put in by the Bulls .Not all teams will se it that way because not all teams have bigman who cant make the wideopen 15ft jumpshot or rebound or set a proper screen or run the floor or the list can go on .

They will see a player who can deliver the ball to the open man ,can make the open shot and at times dominate a game when it is called for .For a team that has pieces in place they wouldnt ask jamal to to be Kobe they would just ask him to be the 16 ppg and 6 apg pg who can drop 30 on you if youre not careful guard he is .

Tonights game was a perfect situation because on a team with some scoring and him at pg he would feed the bigman ,feed the primary wing scorer and then look to for the open shot when it comes to him .Thats what we did at the end of last year and thats what we havent done this year .The poor start kinda killed all that .


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> What are you talking about ? What nba games are you watching ?
> ...


That guy has a dislike for JC plain and simple.

He can't be objective because for whatever reasons he doesn't like the kid...

Nowhere in his post does it mention his near triple double tonight....in a win.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I don't think there is any doubt that JC will get somewhere in the neighborhood of around 7mil a year. ANd if Pax doesn't match he is an idiot. Crawford is one of those players that is really a special sort of player. He has clearly worked hard on his game and his body. He spent more time in the Berto last year than anyone besides Hassell. He takes a lot of shots, yeah, that is true and his fg% could be higher. But who does this team have to score if Jamal doesn't? I think Jamal would be perfectly content to play pg the whole game and only take 10 shots but with Hinrich JC has to play sg. He will have to add more strength to do it next season if he remains a Bull. He wasn't prepared to do it this year, his body isn't developed enough. Plus it shouldn't be any big surprise that Jamal's fg% is low, it seems like he gets every last second, off balance, shot clock winding down, half court, shot that exists for this team. Not because he is looking for it but because his teamates pass him the ball. And that fg% should improve a lot once we get another scorer.. His defense has improved, he still isn't there yet but he is working on it. Plus Jamal is really becoming a solid vocal leader on this team. I reiterate, if Pax doesn't match then he is undoubtedly an idiot and I can virtually guarantee that everyone here, even those of you who now hate Jamal, will regret it at some point down the road in a big way.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

This is the same old JC excuse thread. He has not improved his FG% every year and his D has not improved. Stop with i hate JC junk. I have read you three for the last year about how great JC is this and that. Awful year sums it up for him.

Now you all spend all your time complaining about skiles like it is skiles fault that JC weak game. Seriously he has been benched 6 or 7 times this year. This summer all you all talked about was JC was going to have a break out year, he is going to be one of the best guards in the league. Anyone one who suggested otherwise was talked down. JC game is what it is, perimeter and mostly on the offensive end. He is not now or will he ever be an all star in this league so come to grip with it. He is a complementary player who has a dozen hot games a year.

If you all can not see that get glasses it is obvious to me, the coach, the GM, the press and other GM's in the league. No one is going to offer him big money in free agency. But you are right, paxson must go, skiles must go, everyone must go for Mr. Potential. I don't hate JC i am just sick of all the bs i have to read from the JC kissassss fan club.

david


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> This is the same old JC excuse thread. He has not improved his FG% every year and his D has not improved. Stop with i hate JC junk. I have read you three for the last year about how great JC is this and that. Awful year sums it up for him.
> 
> Now you all spend all your time complaining about skiles like it is skiles fault that JC weak game. Seriously he has been benched 6 or 7 times this year. This summer all you all talked about was JC was going to have a break out year, he is going to be one of the best guards in the league. Anyone one who suggested otherwise was talked down. JC game is what it is, perimeter and mostly on the offensive end. He is not now or will he ever be an all star in this league so come to grip with it. He is a complementary player who has a dozen hot games a year.
> ...


My point exactly.

Those guys in fan club even admit that Pzxon doesn't want JC on team any more.

Yet they think Paxon didn't try hard to trade him before the deadline. I think he did. They weren't any buyer. Period.

Yet they said "Oh, they are just waiting cause he is RFA". Yet they said Paxon is going to match mot offer unless it's ridiculous.

IF other team think him highly , why did they stay ut and not trying to get him through trade? Whatever they can offer, in theory Bulls can match. Why took a gamble on a player they want so much when they had a chance to get him the other way?

And check the offer we had for him during the trade talk? Talk about Isiah's offer?

The point tis that on the contrary to your fan club guys' obsession. most of other GM and lots of Bulls already know him as what he is. 

Even just to end this stupid love-hate fest and move on to something better, I want him to leave. Only then I might not hear anything more from you JC asskisser.

Come to think of it, I never really hate him that much> i was just sick of reading all excuses from you JC fan club members.

Maybe, just maybe once he leave then we can get along better. Maybe not.

I know once I was dreaming the same dream that you guys are in now for JC, I am glad that I woke up and can't wait to see him go.


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## robert60446 (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> My point exactly.
> 
> ...


Bravo!:clap: :clap: :clap:


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> This is the same old JC excuse thread. He has not improved his FG% every year and his D has not improved. Stop with i hate JC junk. I have read you three for the last year about how great JC is this and that. Awful year sums it up for him.
> 
> Now you all spend all your time complaining about skiles like it is skiles fault that JC weak game. Seriously he has been benched 6 or 7 times this year. This summer all you all talked about was JC was going to have a break out year, he is going to be one of the best guards in the league. Anyone one who suggested otherwise was talked down. JC game is what it is, perimeter and mostly on the offensive end. He is not now or will he ever be an all star in this league so come to grip with it. He is a complimentary player who has a dozen hot games a year.
> ...


It seems to me you have some personal issue that need to be worked .DR. Phil maybe ? :laugh:

It case you didnt notice he switched positions this year but you woudlnt care about that you being the master of the JC hate thread .

Before his position switch 15 ppg 5+apg 43%fg 38%3fg 90+% ft 

Thats pretty much where everyone thought he would be this year and thats pretty good for a first year starter. 

The more people like you say " wont ever " it just puts the spotlight on how silly you really are .What will you do is the Bulls resign him to big contract ?what about another team ?What if he makes the all star ? You made sooo many stupid comments but none of them are even anywhere near the truth just some rants to get back at posters who you think think too highly of Crawford.  

You dont hate Crawford ? You sure as hell spend a lot of time ripping him and everything about him AND this is due to other people liking him and you cant stand that :whofarted . 

I dont know whether to laugh at you or cry for you because thats really sad . :sigh:


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> I dont know whether to laugh at you or cry for you because thats really sad . :sigh:


And there are other people who feel sorry for you. You know that, don't you?


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> .What will you do is the Bulls resign him to big contract ?what about another team ?What if he makes the all star ?


Re-signing him....that I can see. And i also easily picture up him getting traded before the Christmas. Seriously. At this point either pay him some and trade later for compensation OR lose him for nothing. I don't think Paxon is stupid enough to opt for latter option.

Allstar? In your dream.....NOT IN MINE.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> Re-signing him....that I can see. And i also easily picture up him getting traded before the Christmas. Seriously. At this point either pay him some and trade later for compensation OR lose him for nothing. I don't think Paxon is stupid enough to opt for latter option.
> 
> Allstar? In your dream.....NOT IN MINE.


I know I mean its a real stretch to think a player who averages 17 ppg and 5 apg cant develop into a all star in one to two seasons on a better team :laugh: 

Who knows what Paxson is gonna do ?Does he even know when the deadline is to file the qualifying offer is ?

The problem is that when you go into the offseason underestimating the value of your players because they havent lived up to your expectations you more than likely get burnt .

Who thought the Wiz would offer Areans that money or even get him ?

Who thought the Heat would get Odom after all they didnt have enough cap room when the season ended ?

Im not saying Crawford has that status yet just that we shouldnt be so naive to think that all the other teams will view him the same way we do .


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> Im not saying Crawford has that status yet just that we shouldnt be so naive to think that all the other teams will view him the same way we do .


Didn't other team already confirm my view before the trade deadline? Did anybody other som posters want him really that bad? Is there any forum on this site crying over JC? Do you know any other thread from other team saying "Gee, We definelty need him (JC) on our team?". Show me any sign that other GM already figured out what you club member coudn't after 4 years?

Believe when I said I was once a member of JC-worship club although back then I wan't posting here (I didn't even know about this forum. I only found this site by accident about 6 month ago.). 

AND I AM NOT A BELIEVER OF JC ANY MORE.


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## 2cool4skool (Mar 30, 2003)

The stats don't lie guys, Crawford is our best player. He leads us in scoring and is 2nd in assists. He's playing terribly out of position at the SG spot. He doesn't have the muscle (or gall) to take it to the lane, draw the fouls, and sink the FT's.

If he could do that, his FG% would be much better, his PPG would be closer to 20 PPG and he'd be a borderline All-Star. He's probably our best PG, but the coaching staff have already made their decision. Since we don't have any wing players, they made Crawford move out there and that's not really where he belongs.

I am grateful that we get to choose between Hinrich and Crawford @ PG because I think both of them can get the job done, but we need some REAL wing players so that one of them doesn't have to play out of position.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> Didn't other team already confirm my view before the trade deadline? Did anybody other som posters want him really that bad? Is there any forum on this site crying over JC? Do you know any other thread from other team saying "Gee, We definelty need him (JC) on our team?". Show me any sign that other GM already figured out what you club member coudn't after 4 years?
> 
> ...


Why would another team pay a high price for something they could get for free this summer ? Pax said he wanted a starter back for jamal why would any team do that during the season when they can wait and go for him this summer .His value is low because he was a rfa with no agent so how do they gauge the interest he would have of resigning with them after the seasons over .What team takes the risk of giving up a starter for that ?

How come people can say Kirk is a top ten pg and they dont get labled as worshippers but you say Crawford can be a good player and you worship him ?

Its silly biased labels like that thats at the root of the problem .I dont like Crawford anymore so if you do you must worship him .What type of  is that ? Its funny that it only seems to apply to Crawford no matter how outrageous the claims have been for Curry,Chandler,or even Hinrich hes the only one that seems to catch this type of BS yet hes been by far our best player this year .


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> How come people can say Kirk is a top ten pg and they dont get labled as worshippers but you say Crawford can be a good player and you worship him ?


With poster like you, aranas, Ace , ... I don't think that label ishuge stretch.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> With poster like you, aranas, Ace , ... I don't think that label ishuge stretch.


and what does it make you ?

I tend to think highly of Jamal,Eddy,Tyson,and Kirk and I wont be so naive to think just because they havent lived up to all of our expectations as Bulls that they wont do better somewhere else .

If history has shown us anything its that careers typically get better after leaving the Bulls not worse . :whofarted


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> and what does it make you ?
> ...


You don't know that. According to you guys, I am Jamal hater and it was forgone conclusion. Old news.


HISTORY.....HISTORY.....HISTORY.....HISTORY.....HISTORY.....

So what? History say what happened, not what is going to happen.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> You don't know that. According to you guys, I am Jamal hater and it was forgone conclusion. Old news.
> 
> ...


Show me where I said you were a Jamal hater 

You basically came out of the closet on your own .Are you that [strike]stupid[/strike] to believe that none of these players if they were the lone developing player on the Twolves or the Lakers or Spurs instead of all suffering growing pains at the same time on the same team.

Do you really think that a young players time with the Bulls really shows what he is capable of ? 

If me Ace,Arenas or anyone else who likes Jamalforces  you to hate him then what does that really say about you ?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Please refrain from personal attacks, folks.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> Please refrain from personal attacks, folks.


That's all JSong has resorted to since yesterday...


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## synthdogg (Jul 14, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> If history has shown us anything its that careers typically get better after leaving the Bulls not worse . :whofarted


Yeah!

DickeySimpkins
Corey Benjamin
Michael Ruffin
AJ Guyton
Khalid El Amin
Dragon Tarlac

These guys have seriously elevated their careers since being Bulls! Just not in the NBA.


Before you reply about the more talented guys the Bulls have lost or let go, this was not meant to be a serious reply...it was just the first thing that came to my mind and made me smile......


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> If me Ace,Arenas or anyone else who likes Jamalforces  you to hate him then what does that really say about you ?


Nothing. cause you know me. Why even bother with this kind of rhetorics? I wonder.


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## synthdogg (Jul 14, 2003)

Yes....I know Ruffin is still officially in the NBA. It was a joke.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> That's all JSong has resorted to since yesterday...


Like you are immune to personal attack, Areana.

In fact it was ussually you guys, Jamal camper, to start calling people names. Just because others don't like your favorite player.

Especially you, Areanas. Of all people you are the one try to put me on the spot is rather amusing. Check your own post and refrain from personal attack yourself. Look in the mirror. 

I mostly react to your stupid name-calling. Not directly to me at first but I am so pissed off by your "I am right . you are all wrong. You don't **** about basketball" logic and reacting this way. 

So stop it yourself. Peace.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

whoops wrong thread.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Question :

*

If Jamal's market is at an all time low , and if you believe that he will end up as a better pro than Kirk Hinrich , and if his market has been suppressed because he has been playing out of position , then with Hinrich's market at sky high why not trade him ? *

Hinrich.. and Curry for that matter .. with our draft pick can get us a lot more than Chandler and Crawford

Yet Crawford and Chandler are being dangled .. and they have their talents which could really help this team and other teams and they will bring back the least in inequitable trades

This is the dutch logic that drives the decision making in management that is crippling this organisation


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Our most tradeable assets right now are a #1 pick, Hinrich, and Curry...

If a team really wants JC, they will just sign him...

Chandler's trade value right now is less than 0.

I think after the expansion draft we'll see who is going to have money and what not and more likely than not someone is going to throw some money at JC that the Bulls will not match.

JC isn't wanted in Chicago, obviously he's a talent, and if Pax could resign him cheap, he would, and then Skiles would make him a 6th man off the bench and JC would have to live with it or ride the pine.

That's beneath JC and isn't giving him the chance to have the kind of career I'm sure he believes he can have.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> If a team really wants JC, they will just sign him...


At the risk of being a broken record, you keep saying this, yet only a handful of teams will be able to offer more than the MLE for him, and anything up to that threshold I think Paxson will match. So it's not as simple as just signing him. Other teams with cap space don't necessarily need him with the exception of perhaps Atlanta, because they have good PG situations already.

Everyone says that the Clips will make a run at him, and it does make basketball sense, but I do remember on realgm, JCbigsis said that Jamal absolutely hates LA and doesn't want to move there (the roughest part of his upbringing took place there I believe), so it's not a given that he'd go there, unless they make an outrageously lucrative offer, and that's not Sterling's style.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> Question :
> 
> *
> ...


crawford cant get anymore than a sevicable vet(most likely a fringe starter like shandon anderson) in return because he is a rFA. the bulls management needs to figure out a core and thats it, keep them through hell or highwater , let them grow and gather cohesion and chemistry and rise as a group ...they really are done in dangling crawford and are into keep or let go mode with him because i can almost guarentee some Gm will take a chance on him for 7 and half mil or better to start and pax will have to bite the bullet or risk looking foolish for letting a young promising guard go for nothing . It might make more sense to trade hinrich or even curry but i hope they wouldn't do anything but keep the young core intact


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> 
> At the risk of being a broken record, you keep saying this, yet only a handful of teams will be able to offer more than the MLE for him, and anything up to that threshold I think Paxson will match. So it's not as simple as just signing him. Other teams with cap space don't necessarily need him with the exception of perhaps Atlanta, because they have good PG situations already.
> ...


Read the post again...

I said AFTER the expansion draft we should know clearly where teams are financially and yes I do find it hard to believe JC won't be offered a nice contract.

You're not saying anything new I didn't say in the post, including what I said regarding Pax's position on JC.

As far as L.A. goes, well I didn't see what his sister said, but I think if he were to go there now it'd be a hell of a lot different for him than when he was a young kid in high school...

Don't you?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> 
> At the risk of being a broken record, you keep saying this, yet only a handful of teams will be able to offer more than the MLE for him, and anything up to that threshold I think Paxson will match. So it's not as simple as just signing him. Other teams with cap space don't necessarily need him with the exception of perhaps Atlanta, because they have good PG situations already.
> ...


truthfully if a team really wants crawford, JC could force a deal by telling the bulls he will accept their qualifying offer if they dont do a sign and trade ...if crawford accepts a 1 yr. deal from the bulls then thats it he's there for a year and then they can do nothing with him ...they cant trade him , they will just have to play out the string and it will make for a miserable year for all involved ...like the kandiman's last year in clipperland, so i'm inclined to agree with arenas that a team just has to want JC bad enough and he is gone unless the bulls do something to make him want to stay


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> truthfully if a team really wants crawford, JC could force a deal by telling the bulls he will accept their qualifying offer if they dont do a sign and trade


Actually, I think Pax would *love* to have Craw sign a Qualifying offer. To get JC for a year and $3.5M and then still have Bird rights to him.

Pax could get crucified if he fails to match an offer to JC. This would absolve him of much of the blame if JC ended up elsewhere.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Read the post again...
> ...


and even AFTER the expansion draft, there will still only be a handful of teams with cap room in excess of the MLE. Things will change somewhat of course, but it's not like half the league will be under the cap. The Bobcats might select and cut one or two bad-contract- players, but they will not become a dumping ground for bad contracts because they still have to PAY that money even though it's not on the cap. So my post remains accurate. Pax should and likely will match up to the MLE and maybe even somewhat beyond, because no matter how he feels about JC's game, he must realize that this team is in no position to allow talent to leave without compensation. If he does let JC walk for a contract in the neighborhood of the MLE, I'll promptly join DaBullz's "fire Pax" club. If Jamal gets an offer in vast excess of the MLE, more power to him, but I don't see it happening for a 40%/32% shooter, despite his obvious gifts. He's streaky and hasn't shown himself to be a winner yet. (not saying that's his fault, but the record is what it is)

As for LA, I'm just mentioning what I remember JCBigsis saying. He doesn't like LA and doesn't want to live there. Of course it would be a different experience than his childhood, but the memories might still be there, plus there are plenty of reasons to dislike LA, independent of that. I personally wouldn't live in LA unless I was making twice what I make now, just because I think the place is foul. Getting a contract offer of 8mil would probably change his tune, but Sterling isn't going to give that kind of money to any shot-happy PG or SG not named Kobe Bryant, if history is any indication. I imagine the Clips would like to add Jamal, but I don't see them making a deal that Pax wouldn't be willing to match. Frankly I think Atlanta might be a bigger risk to offer Jamal a huge contract. They're nearly bereft of talent that they want and might see Jamal as a risk worth taking. I could see them throwing big money his way. Denver, Utah, maybe San Antonio...they have PGs they like already. 

happygrinch, you make a good point. At least if that was the case, we would have some chance of getting something in return for Jamal. It almost certainly wouldn't be fair value, but it would be something. We'll see if Jamal tries a strongarm tactic like that. It's possible, but it's still not as simple as "just signing him", and that was the point I was making.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

If he signs the one year deal you can't trade him...

You still lose him for nothing, he then would be able to sign with any team he wants without ability from Pax to match.

The day JC leaves, I will add him to the list of Bulls players who goes somewhere else and has success...


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Bulls have to make a qualifying offer to Jamal in the first place for Jamal to accept their offer so he's not going to force any sign and trade scenario and hold a gun to the Bulls head as grinch alludes to 

The Bulls won't make any offer initially .. they won't do dick until the market determines his value 

The only teams that can offer him money for teams that "just want to go out and sign him" at least for the $7M that Ace and Grinch seem to think he will command ( I don't ) will be :

Clippers, Utah , San Antonio , Denver and Phoenix 

The only team that I see close to offering that kind of money are Utah who offered Jason Terry that kind of money .. and then why would they offer this kind of dough when they will only be bidding against themselves at this end of the market 

Teams will be interested in him around the MLE and maybe the Clippers will try and pinch him for marginally over the MLE ( read $5.5M ) 

But Phoenix, San Antonio and Denver simply don't need him .. he's be a luxury and why pay $7M for a luxury ?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> If he signs the one year deal you can't trade him...
> 
> You still lose him for nothing, he then would be able to sign with any team he wants without ability from Pax to match.


Pax couldn't lose him until a year from now. And Pax and the Bulls marketing department is intensly focused on next year. 

And Craw is going to have a hell of a time getting another team to agree to a sign and trade b/c it means that they would probably have to take another Bulls player like eRob and Jeffries to get around the BYC year deal.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> If Jamal gets an offer in vast excess of the MLE, more power to him, but I don't see it happening for a 40%/32% shooter, despite his obvious gifts. He's streaky and hasn't shown himself to be a winner yet. (not saying that's his fault, but the record is what it is)


If we're going to go off shooting %s then I guess Hinrich isn't one of our most tradeable assets...

I look at 6'6 PG...

Stats have improved in PPG, RPG, and APG every year in league...

Durable...

24 yrs. old...

Leading scorer in 35 out of 76 games, and 11 of 22 wins...

You did mention his obvious gifts, whoever does want him would obviously feel they can take what he already does well and add on to it.

JC's work ethic can't be questioned, and he's shown improvement throughout this season.

Change the circumstances and you get a better player..

He's not a winner, ya that's his fault, I guess Pargo is because he was on the Lakers...

JC won a state title in high school, and Michigan was 12-5 when he played in 99-00... they were 3-10 without him...

I'm not going to blame him and call him a loser because management can't field a decent team.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Pax couldn't lose him until a year from now. And Pax and the Bulls marketing department is intensly focused on next year.
> ...


We've discussed ad nauseum as to why a sign and trade is next to impossible...

I know what Pax wants to do, but it's not in the best interest of JC...and that's why I'm hoping he gets to go somewhere else.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> Bulls have to make a qualifying offer to Jamal in the first place for Jamal to accept their offer so he's not going to force any sign and trade scenario and hold a gun to the Bulls head as grinch alludes to
> 
> The Bulls won't make any offer initially .. they won't do dick until the market determines his value
> ...


the show members of inside the nba say he'll be the #4 free agent this summer ...for numbers sake remember arenas was offered 60 mil. for 6 years while avg. 18 and 6 assist at pg ..JC gets 17 and 5 at the 2 guard spot ...in truth he may wind up with more than 7.5 mil a year ...if the bulls dont make a qualifying offer they lose their rights to him ...point blank and he becomes unrestricted ...dont believe me, ask dan rosenbaum they have to make that offer by june 30th so its not like they can wait and let crawford stew ...its the other way around if JC really wants to go


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

back of JC's jersey...

"I'm Gone"


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> If we're going to go off shooting %s then I guess Hinrich isn't one of our most tradeable assets...
> ...


so defensive :grinning:

I'm not going to step into the JC/Hinrich crap again. I'll leave that one alone except to say that my only reason to bring that up was in relation to Jamal's contract demands. I just don't see people lining up to give Jamal 7-8 mil when his best season is this one and he's only shooting >40%. That was the only point I was trying to make. That doesn't even mention the fact that only a handful of teams will have more than the MLE anyway. He does have gifts. No argument here. He very well may play much better in a different system with different teammates. But his value will be set by market by what he's already done more so than what he MIGHT be. He's a 4-year player now. His "upside" is still formidable, but he's been around long enough now that teams have a big sample of what he can and can't do. 

I said it's not his fault that he's been on losing teams. As you would say, "read the post again...". His teams have sucked, no doubt. But I think he'd be more likely to get the big deal you think he deserves if he had shown that he can be a difference maker for a team that wins more than 25 games. What he did in HS and college doesn't matter anymore now that he's been in the NBA for 4 years. "Objection, irrelevant". Players that put up stats on bad teams are a dime a dozen - it doesn't guarantee a big contract. Besides, it's the players who go and and win or lose the games, not management. Jamal hasn't won very many. Make whatever excuses you want about that, but that's how it's been.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> 
> Clippers, Utah , San Antonio , Denver and Phoenix
> 
> ...


a team can always get themselves involved if they want to, the kings were capped out and got brad miller personally. i think the knicks will try to swing a deal for him when they fail to land sheed wallace and i also think the magic will get themselves involved because they absolutely have to get another pg who can create some offense . I expect a bidding war of sorts for any team in the market for a pg


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> a team can always get themselves involved if they want to, the kings were capped out and got brad miller personally. i think the knicks will try to swing a deal for him when they fail to land sheed wallace and i also think the magic will get themselves involved because they absolutely have to get another pg who can create some offense . I expect a bidding war of sorts for any team in the market for a pg


if this is the case, at least we'll have a chance to get something in return. You're right that a lot of things can happen. I was mostly just disputing the idea that any team that wants JC can "just sign him". A trade can happen. a S&T could happen but it's unlikely. But a capped-out team can NOT just sign Jamal for more than the MLE. And we'll match the MLE. There's still a lot the Bulls can do to either retain Jamal or get something in return for him, this year at least. The one-year tender would at least keep him here cheap for one more season, and as we all know from this trainwreck of a season, things can change an awful lot in a year.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> 
> if this is the case, at least we'll have a chance to get something in return. You're right that a lot of things can happen. I was mostly just disputing the idea that any team that wants JC can "just sign him". A trade can happen. a S&T could happen but it's unlikely. But a capped-out team can NOT just sign Jamal for more than the MLE. And we'll match the MLE. There's still a lot the Bulls can do to either retain Jamal or get something in return for him, this year at least. The one-year tender would at least keep him here cheap for one more season, and as we all know from this trainwreck of a season, things can change an awful lot in a year.


i never expected him to sign for the MLE i've always expected him to sign for much more if pax doesn't want to pay or JC is deadset on leaving something will be done


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> 
> so defensive :grinning:
> ...


You've made some good points, I just disagree with them...

If you're the leading scorer in 11 of your teams 22 wins, plus the countless games we've lost but been in the game because of him, you're a difference maker.

It should be common knowledge that JC is having a good game, we're at least in the game. When he's not, we lose pretty soundly.

If JC was the starting PG for the Warriors, he'd probably be a 5-7 game difference in the win column for them.

Meaning they'd be staring at the 8th seed in the playoffs...

My point about the HS and college stuff was to combat your he isn't a winner comments, well no ones a winner if you throw them on the Bulls.

I'm not saying GMs would look at what I mentioned and say JC's a winner, but I wouldn't say they'd look at him as being a loser for being a member of the Bulls.

JC's a 4 year player, but I'm not going to break down his 4 years in the league, the first 2 aren't even worth mentioning. I'd even argue this is the first time he's actually getting coached. 2 years of high school, half a season of college, and basically 2 productive years in the years in the pros, and he just turned 24. He still has PLENTY of upside.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

This late in the season, and people are still apologizing for Jamal. 

Wow.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

Eddy and Tyson stuff:

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=607&forumid=27


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> Eddy and Tyson stuff:
> 
> http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=607&forumid=27


:laugh: 

Good one. How long did it take you to find that?

...and the second post in that thread!!


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


I just wanted to check the first post/thread on this board, and that was it. :laugh:


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> the show members of inside the nba say he'll be the #4 free agent this summer ...for numbers sake remember arenas was offered 60 mil. for 6 years while avg. 18 and 6 assist at pg ..JC gets 17 and 5 at the 2 guard spot ...in truth he may wind up with more than 7.5 mil a year ...if the bulls dont make a qualifying offer they lose their rights to him ...point blank and he becomes unrestricted ...dont believe me, ask dan rosenbaum they have to make that offer by june 30th so its not like they can wait and let crawford stew ...its the other way around if JC really wants to go


OK wasn't aware of the date and that they had to offer before other offers if/when they come in 

But I still disagree with the ploy that you refer to as the "leverage" that Jamal will use to force and sign and trade 

There is absolutely no way the Bulls are going to let Jamal force them into a sign and trade just for Jamal to get to where he wants to go 

Pax was not prepared to accept crap for Jamal back in February when he was on the block and therefore revealed his hand that he was prepared to take the risk this summer and lose him for nothing 

I mean if Pax wasn't prepared to accept crap then and get painted into a corner why would he accept crap now and get painted into a corner

OK .. so Jamal pulls his stunt and delivers the ultimatum to try and force the sign and trade after Utah don't come up with the money.. Phoenix and Denver aren't interested at all which leaves the Clippers at around $5.5M - if they even want him 

What do you do if your Jamal ?

Do you take a 1 year deal at $3.5M or do you sign the Clippers offer sheet which ties you up for term at $5.5M starting knowing that Chicago will probably counter sign at around that level .

And if he rejects an offer from a team with money at around $5.5M starting and nah nah's Pax into "threatening" to sign the qualifying offer .. Fine.

Like I said Pax has already demonstrated he is prepared to lose him for nothing if a suitable deal is not reached . So he goes unrestricted the following summer but 

A. We still own bird rights to him and if a team under the cap didn't want to pay him then he still relies on us to do a sign and trade for him to get his money 

B. If he signs a 1 year qualifying offer .. I can almost guarantee he will not see a lot of minutes and we will just make other alternatives at guard through the draft and free agency . Why ? Well for a team trying to get better in a hurry , whilst you can say OK here is a guy with talent who could help us - you also say , can we trust him. That is , like how Kandi screwed the Clippers and himself playing for himself and his stats in a contract year which compromised the effectiveness of the team in the W/L column 

Having said all of that and offering this different slant of perspective , Jamal and his agent would have to be stark raving mad to try and employ such tactic of "blackmail" with the Bulls in accepting the qualifying offer .. which only gets Jamal less money in the short term and ups the individual self serving motives of Jamal playing hor himself in a contract year which only serves to diminish his development as a player and his consequent market value even further .


So for the teams that "just want to sign him " as you allude to .. the only teams that can do that without the sign and trade restriction are those I have mentioned earlier and there are only 2 ( Utah and Clippers ) that are plausible 

For other teams that just wanted to sign him.. well I guess they had their chance at the deadline but either opted out , didn't want to give up players for him when they thought they could pinch him cheap in the summer , or were offering crap which we didn't want ..... read : redux of process this summer . read : chances of sign and trade to get Jamal a boatload of dough - next to none

Which is exacabertaed further when you consider we will have to con someone to take Eddie Robinson or Jerome Williams to a 3rd team under the cap to facilitate it 

That's not happening 

So the reality of all of this is that Jamal has quite a limited market beyond the MLE and I you can be sure that the Jazz, Clips, Suns and Nugz all know this - and when you have two teams that don't even really need him .. his market shrinks further 

Here is what will likely happen ( IMO ) 

Clippers will try and sign him at around $5.25M to $5.5M but will drop out at around that mark and the Jizz if they are reeally desperate may get to $6M - but they need a different type of point guard with Kirilenko and Harpring on the wings - someone that will engage them better given that they aren't totally self engaged types 

I honestly think its the Clips at $5.5M where he fits with Q and Mags on the wings with Elton and Kaman upfront . Jaric backs up 1 - 3 . Wilcox the power positions.. and fill in the blanks

However .. I would expect Pax to match up to this mark - maybe to $6M at a push but not beyond it 

Oh I forgot the Bobcats but would you really want to seed your roster with someone from the losingest team in the league who has had his issues over a 4 year pro career ?? Its a big risk for a start up .. so I discount them entirely


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> JC's a 4 year player, but I'm not going to break down his 4 years in the league, the first 2 aren't even worth mentioning. I'd even argue this is the first time he's actually getting coached. 2 years of high school, half a season of college, and basically 2 productive years in the years in the pros, and he just turned 24. He still has PLENTY of upside.


According to your calculation, then your favorite example of late-developer, Jermaine O'neal, was year-one player when he sign with Pacer since he only managed to play in gabbage time here and there for 4 years with Portland.

Ha, ha.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> According to your calculation, then your favorite example of late-developer, Jermaine O'neal, was year-one player when he sign with Pacer since he only managed to play in gabbage time here and there for 4 years with Portland.
> 
> Ha, ha.


yeah, thats about right. Not sure what you find humorous about it though.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> yeah, thats about right. Not sure what you find humorous about it though.


Cause you guys always used this excuse "Oh, Jamal's first two year means nothing. Add he needs more to develop his game and this is like year 2 actually for him. Blah, blah.".

Again by your logic, Jermaine Orneal become a all star caliber player from YEAR ONE. Where was Jamal in YEAR ONE?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> Cause you guys always used this excuse "Oh, Jamal's first two year means nothing. Add he needs more to develop his game and this is like year 2 actually for him. Blah, blah.".
> 
> Again by your logic, Jermaine Orneal become a all star caliber player from YEAR ONE. Where was Jamal in YEAR ONE?


I don't understand at all what your saying. If anything, Jermaine O'neal is the posterchild for the "it takes projects a few years to develop" train of thought.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't understand at all what your saying. If anything, Jermaine O'neal is the posterchild for the "it takes projects a few years to develop" train of thought.


Actually, O'Neal is the posterchild for the unproven player who rides the bench gets his chance and becomes a superstar that leads his team to awesome records and consistent playoff berths. 

Jamal is the unproven player who rides the bench and gets his chance and becomes... nothing like O'Neal.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, O'Neal is the posterchild for the unproven player who rides the bench gets his chance and becomes a superstar that leads his team to awesome records and consistent playoff berths.
> ...


Jermaine O'neal developed in Portland. If he was as good as he is today don't you think they would have played him more than 3mpg?


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