# DNP - Coach's decision



## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

I'm not trying to start nothing with you guys, but that DNP is for Tinsley... What happened? I mean Tinsley can't beat out Kenny Anderson or Anthony Johnson... Somethings wrong over there... Either Tinsley is vastly overrated (like I've been saying) or Carlisle refuses to put the younger talent out there... Better than Parker, Arenas, Billups... how? He's barely a top 20 PG... what's up with the Tin Man...:whoknows:


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> I'm not trying to start nothing with you guys, but that DNP is for Tinsley... What happened? I mean Tinsley can't beat out Kenny Anderson or Anthony Johnson... Somethings wrong over there... Either Tinsley is vastly overrated (like I've been saying) or Carlisle refuses to put the younger talent out there... Better than Parker, Arenas, Billups... how? He's barely a top 20 PG... what's up with the Tin Man...:whoknows:


Tinsley makes tons of bad shots and turnovers, which is why Carlisle doesn't like playing him. 

As for the because he's young hes not playing BS, it's wrong. How could it be right? Carlisle benched Pollard for Jeff Foster whos pretty young, and started Fred Jones whos young when Reggie couldn't play. And he has Al Harrington as the 6th man, who is very young.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: DNP - Coach's decision*



> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> 
> 
> Tinsley makes tons of bad shots and turnovers, which is why Carlisle doesn't like playing him.
> ...


The whole Pacers team is young, what is Rick suppose to do? He's going to have to start young players. Actually, at one point for the Pistons he started Rodney White for awhile, but that didn't last very long.


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: DNP - Coach's decision*



> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> The whole Pacers team is young, what is Rick suppose to do? He's going to have to start young players. Actually, at one point for the Pistons he started Rodney White for awhile, but that didn't last very long.


I think Detriot fans have this "Carlisle doesn't play young players" way over their head and use it as an excuse so Detriot fans can feel good about letting him go. It's BS. 

Why is Carlisle playing Fred Jones (out of ALL PEOPLE) more then Anthony Johnson? Not by much though. Johnson played alot of shooting guard in the 2nd half vs the Hawks, as a replacement to Jones. 

Why is he playing Foster ahead of Pollard? Why is he not playing Austin Croshere that much??

You know why? Carlisle mind set is "must win everygame" and he is playing the players who WILL WIN GAMES and thats what he did in Detriot too. Was him not playing Prince really effect Prince's future? No. Players like Jonny Bender will develop just fine. 

Detriot fans are so stuck on this not playing young players BS that even if we win the title they'll be saying "yeah, you wont the title, but Bender didn't get much playing time".


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

I'm not fighting this. Rick Carlisle should have played Tayshaun Prince alot more during the regular season. That's a fact. Look at what the guy did in the postseason.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: DNP - Coach's decision*



> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> Detriot fans are so stuck on this not playing young players BS that even if we win the title they'll be saying "yeah, you wont the title, but Bender didn't get much playing time".


Dude, what are you talking about.

All he did was ask why Tinsley got a DNPCD.

The only justification Detroit fans need for losing Carlisle is getting Larry Brown.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

If not starter I think Tinsley could log minutes as a backup, but maybe they dont want his stats hurt.


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: DNP - Coach's decision*



> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Dude, what are you talking about.
> ...


This comment by him: *Carlisle refuses to put the younger talent out there* was not just "asking why Tinsley was DNP CD.


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> I'm not fighting this. Rick Carlisle should have played Tayshaun Prince alot more during the regular season. That's a fact. Look at what the guy did in the postseason.


Detriot still won the divison, did they not? Maybe Carlisle has different ideas of how to make young players. It's oviously working, since Prince played awsome in the playoffs and is starting now. 

Who are we to judge Carlisle's coaching stegety anyways? He wins. Bottom line. 

Maybe it was a wakeup call to Tinsley? Tinsley was getting killed by TJ Ford (as was Kenny Anderson) but Anderson clearly has outplayed Tinsley in first 2 games. If it wasn't for Carlisle's move to not play Tinsley and play Johnson, then we'd be 1-2 right now. Even in the loss vs Milwaukee, Johnson was excellent from 3 point range.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

I said is it because he's overrated, which he is by many Pacers fans *OR* is it because Carlisle doesn't like playing the younger players... The fact is that Kenny Anderson and Anthony Johnson are playing over him, that's says something all in it's self... it's a question, I didn't say it was a fact... be easy. Could it be that you guys are mad because you have been defending Tinsley for who knows how long and giving him labels he doesn't deserve?


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> Somethings wrong over there... Either Tinsley is vastly overrated (like I've been saying) or Carlisle refuses to put the younger talent out there


Read and reassess.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> 
> 
> Detriot still won the divison, did they not? Maybe Carlisle has different ideas of how to make young players. It's oviously working, since Prince played awsome in the playoffs and is starting now.
> ...


I can after we got blown out of the ECF by the Nets, and that might not have happened if Okur and Prince were better developed. But, let's move back to the original point of Tinsley being better than Billups, Arenas, and Parker. Because, right now it sure doesn't look like he's better than those guys sitting on the bench as a cheerleader.


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> I can after we got blown out of the ECF by the Nets, and that might not have happened if Okur and Prince were better developed. But, let's move back to the original point of Tinsley being better than Billups, Arenas, and Parker. Because, right now it sure doesn't look like he's better than those guys sitting on the bench as a cheerleader.


I'v never been a big fan of Tinsley's. Is he overrated? I don't know, because i'v never thought he was that good. Pacers organization seems weakness in him, because first they wanted to get a proven PG in the off-season, when that failed, they got Anthony Johnson and Kenny Anderson, both PG's but not the proven type we expected, but instead of getting just one, we got two. 

I do read topics, and yes, some Pacers fans here really overrate Jamaal Tinsley. But be serious, Detriot fans do the same on some of their players as do Bulls fans on their players and so on. Okur is a solid player, but some Piston fans make him sound as a star, which is he not even close to being. 

Do i think Tinsley's career is over? No. I think Carlisle saw a weak team and benched Tinsley, so maybe Tinsley figures out he needs to step up huge if he wants to play. 

Tinsley was Isiah's boy when IT was coach. No matter how much Tinsley stuggled, IT never put any blame on him, which is one reason why so many people think he's so good, because IT thought he was awsome.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> 
> 
> I'v never been a big fan of Tinsley's. Is he overrated? I don't know, because i'v never thought he was that good. Pacers organization seems weakness in him, because first they wanted to get a proven PG in the off-season, when that failed, they got Anthony Johnson and Kenny Anderson, both PG's but not the proven type we expected, but instead of getting just one, we got two.
> ...


I'm not going to go back and forth and all that, but this was really made about Tinsley being better than Billups, Arenas, and Parker... Like Jvanbusk said he is a cheerleader now and to think that some thought this guy was a top 10 PG, but he can't start on his own team over an aging star... Yes some fans do vastly overrate their players and I'm glad you could see past that and know Tinsley's true value, but some fans overrate their players too, too much as in the case of calling Tinsley a Top 10 PG.


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not going to go back and forth and all that, but this was really made about Tinsley being better than Billups, Arenas, and Parker... Like Jvanbusk said he is a cheerleader now and to think that some thought this guy was a top 10 PG, but he can't start on his own team over an aging star... Yes some fans do vastly overrate their players and I'm glad you could see past that and know Tinsley's true value, but some fans overrate their players too, too much as in the case of calling Tinsley a Top 10 PG.


If i remember correctly, one 1 fan from bb.net said Tinsley was top 10, so you're not being too fair. Pacers have a huge fanbase and theres alot of us on this board too, and 1 persons comment makes everyone think Tinsley is top 10 PG?


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> 
> 
> If i remember correctly, one 1 fan from bb.net said Tinsley was top 10, so you're not being too fair. Pacers have a huge fanbase and theres alot of us on this board too, and 1 persons comment makes everyone think Tinsley is top 10 PG?


I'll give you that, one fan said that in particular (top 10 PG), but I've seen on here plenty of times -- Tinsley's great this, Tinsley's great that... and more than one fan on here has said Tinsley is better than Parker, Arenas, Billups, whoever....

Check the thread it's 3 or 4 guys who post here regularly saying things of this sort, so it wasn't directed at you, but them...

*Tinsley thread*


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll give you that, one fan said that in particular (top 10 PG), but I've seen on here plenty of times -- Tinsley's great this, Tinsley's great that... and more than one fan on here has said Tinsley is better than Parker, Arenas, Billups, whoever....
> ...



lol

You're right. But, if you read those posts, some of the people who say Tinsley is a awsome PG also say Andre Miller is better then Tinsley. I honestly think, Andre Miller is overrated and think Tinsley is better then Miller. But thats another discussion. I think it's just fans being fans, because that topic was talked about during the off-season when nothing was going on.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

First of all, it was me who said he was better than Billups, Arenas, and Parker. The fact is I said that LAST SEASON. Last season, hell yeah Tinsley was better than those players, but this season, I won't be saying that.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> First of all, it was me who said he was better than Billups, Arenas, and Parker. The fact is I said that LAST SEASON. Last season, hell yeah Tinsley was better than those players, but this season, I won't be saying that.


No big deal, but even then your statements were grossly inaccurate. You based everything on statistics, which you just can't do. And to top it off you only chose the statistical categories that bettered your claims, and ruled out important point guard categories such as turnovers (Which Tinsley is one of the worst in the league) and of course field goal percentage. But, you included block shots per game. Seriously, who cares if Tinsley blocks a shot once every 4 games and somebody else once every 5 games? How is that good criteria to prove one player is better than another?


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

I also based it off of how the player fits into his team.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> I also based it off of how the player fits into his team.


Well then watch a Pistons game and you will see how important Billups is. Hell, had he and Hamilton not combined to shoot 6-31 opening night, there is no doubt in my mind the Pistons would have won.

Also there was a point in that thread where you stated, "*points to stats*" as if that was the end all to the discussion. You're whole arguement seemed to be based on that.

Furthermore, is it right for me to assume a point guard's turnover numbers aren't important?


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

Billups and Hamilton did not have a good game because of the Pacer defense, in my opinion at least. 

Regarding the Assist to Turnover Ratio, Tinsley was 13th in the league in that category. Parker was 42nd, Billups was 44th, and Arenas was not ranked.

Full list:

http://tinyurl.com/tdux


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> Billups and Hamilton did not have a good game because of the Pacer defense, in my opinion at least.
> 
> Regarding the Assist to Turnover Ratio, Tinsley was 13th in the league in that category. Parker was 42nd, Billups was 44th, and Arenas was not ranked.
> ...


Who turned the ball over more, Tinsley, Billups, or Parker? I don't care about assists.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> Who turned the ball over more, Tinsley, Billups, or Parker? I don't care about assists.


Tinsley had more turnovers than both of them. But guess what, Kidd had the most turnovers, and Francis, Pierce, G. Robinson, Arenas, Kobe, Iverson, Rose, Marbury, Webber, Terry, Sahq, Mashburn, Garnett, and Stackhouse all had more turnovers than Tinsley.

So obviously, that is not a very reliable statistic. The more reliable statistic is assists to turnover ration, in which, Tinsley was better.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Tinsley had more turnovers than both of them. But guess what, Kidd had the most turnovers, and Francis, Pierce, G. Robinson, Arenas, Kobe, Iverson, Rose, Marbury, Webber, Terry, Sahq, Mashburn, Garnett, and Stackhouse all had more turnovers than Tinsley.
> ...


Turnovers per game is not a reliable statistic? Are you serious?

Tinsley's main job is to protect the ball, something he is obviously not good at. You can't compare a point guard with a bunch of non point guards.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> Turnovers per game is not a reliable statistic? Are you serious?
> ...


First of all, his main job is not to protect the ball but distribute the ball. Turnovers are made up for by assists. Even if you believe it is a reliable statistic, see this part of my post.



> Tinsley had more turnovers than both of them. But guess what, Kidd had the most turnovers, and Francis, Pierce, G. Robinson, Arenas, Kobe, Iverson, Rose, Marbury, Webber, Terry, Sahq, Mashburn, Garnett, and Stackhouse all had more turnovers than Tinsley.


Now you say you can't compare point guards to non point guards. Let repeat: *Kidd* had the most turnovers, and *Francis*, Pierce, G. Robinson, *Arenas*, Kobe, Iverson, *Rose*, *Marbury*, Webber, *Terry*, Sahq, Mashburn, Garnett, and Stackhouse all had more turnovers than Tinsley.

That is six pretty damn good point guards that had more turnovers than Tinsley.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> First of all, his main job is not to protect the ball but distribute the ball. Turnovers are made up for by assists. Even if you believe it is a reliable statistic, see this part of my post.
> ...


That's 4 point guards listed out of your 6, and only 1 of which is a pass first type of guy.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

Which two aren't point guards? Rose and Terry? Fine I'll give you Rose, but Terry is definately a PG (Although I like him better at the SG). And hell, Kidd, Marbury, and Francis are basically the top 3 PGs.

If you're going to make the excuse that only one of them are pass first point guards, then you can't use that excuse for Billups because he isn't a pass first point guard.

And, what does being a pass first point guard have to do with turning the ball over. I can see maybe your passes would go out of bounds or get stolen but shouldn't that make them have _More_ turnovers?

As a final note, I'd like to add that Parker had more turnovers than Tinsley as well.


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

Tinsley is in better shape this year. But he still doesn't help us win better than Anderson. He can't shoot, he can't guard a Pygmy, and he tries to make a highlight when a simple play will do. He does turn the ball over way too much. When I watch the games and the ball is in his hands I always feel a little uneasy because I have a feeling that the ball is gonna be going the other way in any second. I believe he has the physical skills and vision to become a decent point guard, but until he develops his shot and gets better on defense he is gonna be sitting behind Anderson and maybe even johnson. 

His best skill is in the running game, the ability to see the open guy and get it to him for a fast break bucket. But this year we are going to a halfcourt offense which makes him basically useless. and in the halfcourt you can't do stupid behind the back moves because they will steal it before he can say "Doh! Another turnover!"

I think he should shoot 1000 jumpers everyday until he can finally hit a shot.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TLR</b>!
> Tinsley is in better shape this year. But he still doesn't help us win better than Anderson. He can't shoot, he can't guard a Pygmy, and he tries to make a highlight when a simple play will do. He does turn the ball over way too much. When I watch the games and the ball is in his hands I always feel a little uneasy because I have a feeling that the ball is gonna be going the other way in any second. I believe he has the physical skills and vision to become a decent point guard, but until he develops his shot and gets better on defense he is gonna be sitting behind Anderson and maybe even johnson.
> 
> His best skill is in the running game, the ability to see the open guy and get it to him for a fast break bucket. But this year we are going to a halfcourt offense which makes him basically useless. and in the halfcourt you can't do stupid behind the back moves because they will steal it before he can say "Doh! Another turnover!"
> ...


Mad respect for this post. That's a great objective look at one of your own players.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TLR</b>!
> Tinsley is in better shape this year. But he still doesn't help us win better than Anderson. He can't shoot, he can't guard a Pygmy, and he tries to make a highlight when a simple play will do. He does turn the ball over way too much. When I watch the games and the ball is in his hands I always feel a little uneasy because I have a feeling that the ball is gonna be going the other way in any second. I believe he has the physical skills and vision to become a decent point guard, but until he develops his shot and gets better on defense he is gonna be sitting behind Anderson and maybe even johnson.
> 
> His best skill is in the running game, the ability to see the open guy and get it to him for a fast break bucket. But this year we are going to a halfcourt offense which makes him basically useless. and in the halfcourt you can't do stupid behind the back moves because they will steal it before he can say "Doh! Another turnover!"
> ...


I was going to say what Jvanbusk said... great post! Took the words right of my mouth, that describes Tinsley perfectly... I would give you a good rating, but I already did...


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> this year


That completely voids his post's purpose in *this topic*. No #$%* Tinsley is worse this year. Probably not a top 20 point guard. But last year, he was a top 10 point guard.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

So did he just forget how to play?


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> So did he just forget how to play?


Apparently that would be the case.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

Maybe, but there are a lot of factors to consider like the new coach and new style of play. And his confidence might have been hurt when Bird said they were looking for a new point guard.


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## clownskull (Jun 21, 2002)

i would say that jamal's problems lie in the jumpshooting inconsistancies and poor defense. then you throw in the often uneccessary behind-the-back crossovers and stuff where he tries to get too fancy for the sake of being fancy and you have a man who is now the third string p.g., another poster already said pretty much the same thing but, yeh, i'd just have to agree with that.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

I actually like his fancy passes. That's infact one of my favorite parts of his game. Most of the time they work. I think that Knicks game last season (when Artest broke the camera) made his fancy passes look much worse because he did it in the final seconds. At least, that's when I started hearing complaints about it. I mean, just look at his turn over and assist to turnover ratio. I can't argue for his jumper though.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

If I save the URL of this topic, will I always be able to see it, or will it get purged?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> If I save the URL of this topic, will I always be able to see it, or will it get purged?


Im not too sure. But I am under the assumption that every thread from day one is still on the board.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

Okay, cool then, because this is one of my favorite topics.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

From ESPN Insider:



> What's up with Jamaal Tinsley's lack of playing time in Indiana? He went from starter last season to playing in just three games and 13.3 minutes this year.
> 
> "We've never been in a situation before we're we've had other viable options," *Pacers president Donnie Walsh told Insider. "I think Rick prefers to go with experience."*
> 
> ...


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

Thanks Det for the story, since i don't get ESPNinsider. 

As long as we're winning i don't care who plays point, even Jamison Brewer. Like the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. 

But i wouldn't mind trading Tinsley for a guy we could use right now, this season. But i'm sure Pacers camp will wait and see how Bender plays when he returns before making any deals.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> Thanks Det for the story, since i don't get ESPNinsider.
> 
> As long as we're winning i don't care who plays point, even Jamison Brewer. Like the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
> ...


How long is Bender out? I haven't heard anything about him in a minute...


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> How long is Bender out? I haven't heard anything about him in a minute...


From what I last heard he should be back soon. But I havent heard much about him since seasons start.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

Bender just started practicing again.


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