# An B+ for Isiah



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

After 3 months of praising and bashing IT for moving KVH,lampe,rights to Vujanic,this years number 1 for Marbury,TT,Naz and blowing out garbage like Eisly one thing is for sure..IT made the right move

The talent pool in this years draft is as thin as its ever been as evidenced by the Suns literally giving away the number 7 pick in the draft,let alone the lower pick the knicks shipped out.


From everything i have read,Vujanic is nowhere near the second coming of Steve Nash.In fact if he ever does come over he may not be any better than FranK Williams.As for Lampe,it just so happens he plays the same position as Sweetney who is a walking double double....

Regarding the KVH trade,I would still take Naz and TT over KVH,if for no other reasons you got two starters for one...

So for Player Transactions I give Isiah an A,but I am afraid I will have to grade him an overall B+ for the INSANE Bad hire of Lenny Wilkens









:yes: :no:


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

:greatjob: 

I'm still giving him a pass on Lenny cause I think he wants a HOF PG coaching him. Steph still has a way to go and our franchise is committed to him for a long time. He needs to be made better and while I don't think Lenny is a great motivator or situational coach I do think he's a smart guy and he will raise Steph's b-ball IQ.

I also give Isiah high points for player development (I think we'll see improvement in all our frontcourt guys over the off season while Layden never even knew where to find his guys) and setting a tone of toughness and accountability.


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

Amen, truth. The draft is VERY thin. The pick #1 pick we have next year is at our discretion, not Phoenix's. So in that respect, all KUDOS goes to IT. I'm still trying to get over the Lenny Wilkens hire, I still think we need more of a defensive coach and a disciplinarian. Time will tell with that move. Getting back to the draft, I still wouldn't mind if IT were to pull something out of thin air and made a move.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

i have never seen a draft where there is so much speculation and possible movement.

i wonder if Phoenix offered the #7 pick to the Knicks and Isiah passed.They basically gave it away..


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> i wonder if Phoenix offered the #7 pick to the Knicks and Isiah passed.They basically gave it away..


Lets hope that he didn't do that. :gopray:


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

**** Isiah Thomas. **** his love of the " Atheltic " Player. He's a dinosaur whose narrow minded views will only **** this team out of more wins. Everyone runs around thinking he's the anti-layden. Wrong, he's Laydens doppleganger. 


Trevor Ariza? What the **** was that? We had Sato on the board. That guy is the second coming of Matt Barnes.Hell Barnes is probably better than the kid, I mean what the **** kind of 3 can't hit a free throw?

We had Ha Seung Jin Jamie LLoreda, Christian Drejer, and a slew of other guys who could potentially be decent players in this league.


IT's total unwillingness to learn about foriegn players will bite this team in the ***. Lampe is a talented kid who could have hung out and in 2-3 years played excellent ball at the 3-4. Instead we have a bloated cap, a bunch of underachievers who are " athletic" but won't do ****.

I think this team is ****ed in the *** once again. Sweetney seems to be coming a long fine, but he is no way shape or form a franchise player, besides him, we have nothing to look forward too. We know what we have and it's not going to change for a long time. The only thing we can hope for is possible team chemistry and it's not as if Lenny Wilkens can inspire anyone to do anything.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

If you are going to fry IT I would at least wait till the season begins...

The only question is if he could have moved up somehow with a trade with Phoenix and drafted one of the raw high school studs..None of those players you mentioned are worth anything.

The Knicks have a small window of opportunity to take on 3 year bad contracts and be competitive.After that,H20,Penny,Shandon,TT and the rest of the high priced players will be gone and its a fresh start.Isiah has no interest in marginal late draft picks and he is right in his approach.

Isiah is just playing the hand he was dealt


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

I really don't see any reason to get upset over this draft or who we picked over who we didn't. Watching this draft was like a slow DEATH. Most of the draft (I was over at my boy's house) we were 'Never heard of him' or 'What?' or 'Why'. this has got to have been the worst draft ever. And as far as skill level goes, if all those players who dropped out of the draft this past week were worried about their position because of this group of bums, then those guys must be worst. The only good thing I got out of the draft was Chicago drafting Ben Gordon, which in my mind leaves Jamal Crawford all for us. Didn't he say he wouldn't mind playing for NY? He's our athletic 2 and our backup pg. I also paid attention to what Golden State did in the draft. We sign Crawford to the MLE and do a sign and trade with GS to get Dampier here and we're straight. Wait let me put this glass of Jack and Coke down...


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> **** Isiah Thomas. **** his love of the " Atheltic " Player. He's a dinosaur whose narrow minded views will only **** this team out of more wins. Everyone runs around thinking he's the anti-layden. Wrong, he's Laydens doppleganger.
> 
> 
> ...


totally agree, without the trades who knows how bad hte knicks could have gotten and where in the lottery they could've ended up.


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## knicks235 (May 20, 2003)

isiah drafted T-Mac, i think he knows what he's doing. GREAT pick with Ariza, Jin will NEVER be in the NBA because he dosent even know how to play 5-5!!!!! c'mon if u think ha suen jin is gonna be decent i feel sorry for you


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Who are you to be sorry for anyone. Jin doesn't know how to play 5 on 5? What the hell game was he playing in college and for his olympic team then?

Get a clue.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

KBF,I think you are missing the mandate and gameplan...Do anything you can do to be competitive NOW without making any commitments past 3 years when cap relief comes.....

That is why IT would rather play in the F.A market or trade for a proven commodity.

As for


> totally agree, without the trades who knows how bad hte knicks could have gotten and where in the lottery they could've ended up


That is a pretty weak arguement and this was NOT the year to be in the draft. 8 high schoolers?? Cmon...Okafar is very good,but he did fracture his L5 vertebrae and the last thing you need is a player who may be prone to disc injuries.

If your best arguments are Romain Sato,some 7'3" Korean who is a MAJOR MAJOR project or tanking the season for a raw high school player,I would say IT definetly made the right moves


Tap,I am with you..This was the WORST draft ever...Just get Crawford,who looks like the odd man out


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Knicks 235,does this guy Ariza have any game???

never even heard of him


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

answered my own question

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=2143115cap&prov=st&type=lgns


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## knicks235 (May 20, 2003)

heres what i was thinking ,if a team like the pistons pick up euopian like Darko as a project whos to say we cant have projects like Ariza who need to be dusted off alitle and he might have some talent.
Isiah Molded Jermaine O'neal to what he is today,if not him people in his circle like Aguire i mean look what hes doing with Sweetney, so i think Ariza is a project who could end up being a prety nice player in the future if the Knick coaching staff and management .

im SOOO glad he diddent pick a bust like Jin because i know he wont amount to anything because he really dosent know how to play the game.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Ariza is a joke. He was a joke at UCLA he'll be no better than Matt barnes. I've seen him play more than once, well not much more because he's not worth the price of admission.

To have potential you have to have some modicum of talent. At his best he's a journeyman, and that's with Kobe bryant like work ethic,


For you to keep saying Jin is a bust just shows how ignorant you are. You've never seen him, you didn't know he played in Highschool and on the Olympics, and you're labeling him a bust already. Pathetic. Are you part of Knicks management? You act like it.


Since it's obvious you're a teenager or close, let me ask you this. If jin was such a heavy bust, WHY DID SFX FLY HIM AND TRAIN HIM FOR FREE???


As someone else said, use your noodle.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> KBF,I think you are missing the mandate and gameplan...Do anything you can do to be competitive NOW without making any commitments past 3 years when cap relief comes.....


COMPETITIVE NOW??? DID YOU NOT SEE US IN THE PLAYOFFS??? 

WHO THE HELL ARE WE SUPPOSED TO COMPETE WITH ? BOSTON ATLANTA? 

It's sure as hell isn't going to be cleveland anymore, you wanna bet Jackson doesn't tear it up next season fool has a near 40" vertical and sweet stroke.

When cap relief comes what? I mean what? How we tank, grab the 2005 first rounder and lottery it for two more years than in 3 years we have a fun team to watch.


> That is why IT would rather play in the F.A market or trade for a proven commodity.
> 
> As for
> 
> ...


Dude, Ariza is a freshman, and a lousy one. This draft was good for role players and complimentary players. It was filled with them. I don't agree with a lot of highschool picks but a few college and European players went outside the lottery whom I felt would be real beneficial to our system.

Furthermore knock Drejer ( though you'd be a fool to) LLoreda, Sato, Jin all you want, they are still better than Trevor. TREVER SHOOTS GOD DAM 50% at the ****IN FREE THROW LINE and HE'S A ****ING SMALL FORWARD. Seriously WHAT THE **** IS THAT?

In any event I lost a lot of faith in Thomas in this draft I'm sure he'll settle me down by finding a way to get Shandon andersen the hell out of here,
but he failed this draft big time.


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## knicks235 (May 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Ariza is a joke. He was a joke at UCLA he'll be no better than Matt barnes. I've seen him play more than once, well not much more because he's not worth the price of admission.
> 
> To have potential you have to have some modicum of talent. At his best he's a journeyman, and that's with Kobe bryant like work ethic,
> ...


how can you say Ariza wont amount to anything and critisize me for saying Jin is a bust, is that contradiction yourself?

teenager at best?you seem mad, are you mad? i think i have an eye for talent, i knew Rodman was going to be a great player when he was drafted so late, and recently i called Boozer on his succes and those are just 2 examples. Ariza is a project work him out, teach him and he's fine.

Stop hating man


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>knicks235</b>!
> 
> 
> how can you say Ariza wont amount to anything and critisize me for saying Jin is a bust, is that contradiction yourself?
> ...


He isn't "hating," merely stating what's already evident. Jin played in the Olympics, he has played against good NBA level talent. He put up better numbers there than Ariza did against the P.O.S. talent that exists in the west in the NCAA. Not to mention Ha shoots better at 7'3" than Ariza does at 6'8", plus Ha is younger and is in better condition then Ariza. Isiah has done nothing more than a mediocre job as a GM so far in my opinion. I still think Doleac and Van Horn are better than Mohommad and Thomas.


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

ACtually, I like the Ariza pick. He is athletic, has a HUGE upside, and can play decent D now with the potential to become a defensiev stopper you put on the oppossing teams best scorer. Granted, that is the best upside he could get, but Isiah has a rep for developing players. Ariza is only 19 so he should become better. He also has a good feel for the game. The problem with him is his strength, which he can work one, his shooting, which can be worked on too. He is a 50% FT shooter now but FT is probably one of the easiest skills to improve if you work on it. You can't teach the athletic ability he has. One last problem Ariza has is that he has asthma. He had a collapsed lung earlier this year I think. That could be an area of conccern. 

Some people are very high on Ariza and if he developes to the very upside of the ability he is suppose to become a great player in the NBA. I have my concerns but I think he can be a decent player or defensive specialist at the very least in a few years. He won't contribute now but wait a few years, he is a project and Isiah has had good experience with projects.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> COMPETITIVE NOW??? DID YOU NOT SEE US IN THE PLAYOFFS???


I am sure you realised we played without H20 and TT..Take Richard Jefferson and jason Kidd out of the series and how well would the Nets have played.

Plus the NETS are a very good team.I am not making excuses for the Knicks,but lets be somewhat fair.

I have no clue to Ariza's game,but I certainly wouldnt get manic or judge a GM by what he did with the 44th pick in the draft.You cant be serious,but if you are that is your perrogative.
Just make sure you lose just as much faith in Jerry West as Memphis didnt pick your "studs" either...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Here it is KBF,straight from the horses mouth(IT)

"He's 6-8, has a seven-foot wingspan, and has a potential to be a very good defender, ball mover and distributor," said Thomas. "He can handle the ball. He can play three positions for us. And he is the same age as all these high school players you've seen. This kid has a potential for a great upside. We didn't think we'd get a player such as him at 43." 

Indeed, Ariza didn't participate in a workout for the Knicks because "his agent thought he'd go in the first round," according to Thomas. "But we saw him in Chicago (NBA Pre-Draft Camp) -- and we were very impressed. We didn't think we'd get a player with his size and strength. There's no telling what his body and game might grow into with some NBA coaching." 

KBF,take a deep breath,I have NEVER seen someone get worked up over the 44th pick in the draft


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> Here it is KBF,straight from the horses mouth(IT)
> 
> "He's 6-8, has a seven-foot wingspan, and has a potential to be a very good defender, ball mover and distributor," said Thomas. "He can handle the ball. He can play three positions for us. And he is the same age as all these high school players you've seen. This kid has a potential for a great upside. We didn't think we'd get a player such as him at 43."
> ...


IT just proved he has no idea what the hell he is talking about. Ariza did jack **** in college, he left because he couldn't hack the pressure of being a go to guy on offense. 

Whoever thinks this kid can play three position is in for surprise. Actually **** that, whoever thinks that is stupid.
Kevin ollie could take this guy to the hole, his passing is ****, he could crash the boards in college, wonderful, now go outrebound LO, Boozer and bosh. Not gonna happen. When you talk about an atheltic guy who can play 3 positions is a great ball mover and distributor, you're talking about Drejer. That's all he did at Florida, while people fed like vultures off of his playmaking skills.


Get the picture?


I don't care if we pick dead last. Do some god damn research with whatever pick you were given. Sato drejer Lloreda Jin and a few others were availble and will be better players in this league.

Furthermore Trevor addresses 0, nada, zilch, none of the needs we have on this team. I watched martin abuse us, and guess what, he's 85% athleticism at least. 

I've seen Ariza play, he sucks. Again, I don't care if you pick dead last, get the right pick.

As for memphis. I think you need to recheck the draft board. They didn't draft those guys because when they picked none of them were availble save Lloreda and with so many forwards that would have been useless, I don't know why they didn't pick Drejer, a mistake imo.

However what they did was grab a shooter, something the team needs. West grabbed someone to play a role on his team and make it better. IT grabbed yet another " Atheletic" player 
with "potential" who plays a position we are stacked at. 

Waste of draft pick, waste of GM. Besides steph getting here I have yet to cheer for any of these moves.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dcrono3</b>!
> ACtually, I like the Ariza pick.


No reason too.



> He is athletic,


Who isn't athletic in the draft? That term is so useless unless he is atheltic like milicic or igdoula or some other freak.



> has a HUGE upside,


The hell he does. 


> and can play decent D now with the potential to become a defensiev stopper


Average defender with a lot of work. He'll never be that good of a defender, he's to stupid. He bites on every fake ala spreewell.


> you put on the oppossing teams best scorer.


I agree with you here, I want a lottery pick in 2005



> Granted, that is the best upside he could get,


It's not even close.


> but Isiah has a rep for developing players.


Based on what????



> Ariza is only 19 so he should become better.


Same with Pryzbilla and Cleaves.



> He also has a good feel for the game.


If you're trying to imply he has high basketball IQ you're sorely mistaken.



> The problem with him is his strength,


Which is one reason he isn't " Athletic" isn't going to be a defensive stopper, and is a HUGE REASON HE WILL BE A BUST. Guys who can't power it to the rack better knock down a shot. He can't do either.



> He is a 50% FT shooter now but FT is probably one of the easiest skills to improve if you work on it.


Tell that to the league.



> You can't teach the athletic ability he has.


But you can find it littered in the draft.



> One last problem Ariza has is that he has asthma. He had a collapsed lung earlier this year I think. That could be an area of conccern.


So a guy who needs conditioning, has a medical problem to prevent that, can't shoot, can't over power people, and is competeing for a spot that is layden with veteran's is somehow going to develop? Please.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> KBF,I think you are missing the mandate and gameplan...Do anything you can do to be competitive NOW without making any commitments past 3 years when cap relief comes.....
> 
> That is why IT would rather play in the F.A market or trade for a proven commodity.
> ...


HAhah what an idiot, i didnt see no vertebrae fracture ill effects on his way to the national title did you?? If you wanted jamal crawford then why bother trading for marbury in the first place?? houston aint going anywhere, so your gonna play crawford where exactly?? All that is assuming if you even get Crawford!! Who cares about sato or ha, i'm talking about the 1st round pick the knicks dealt, who said anything about the 2nd round. If your telling me the last things the knicks needed was okafor then i'm sorry nobody can help you. If the knicks kept the pick they might have had a chance for a ben gordon, luol deng, devin harris, all established players!! As far as the your incompetent 8 hs'ers argument, what difference does it make?? as far the knicks track record goes lets say they were in the top 10, anyone they picked would have been more talented than anyone they've drafted in over a decade.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

before you call anyone an idiot,i would take a good hard look in the mirror....



> If the knicks kept the pick they might have had a chance for a ben gordon, luol deng, devin harris, all established players!!


established players???Luol Deng?? You are established when you make it in the Pros..And if thats the group of players you think we should tank the season for,that is not a very persuasive argument..Try again...

crawford would play the 2 or the 1...H20 has yet to fully recover and he refuses to get surgery.Let me ask you,Crawford is unneccessary due to an injured H20,but you think we should have tanked the season for Ben Gordon or Harris??That makes alot of sense...

As for Okafor,I was merely trying to say this was the weakest draft in memory.The best player in the draft was coming off a L5 fracture which kept him out for a while.No matter how you slice it,a spinal injury of the L5 vertabrae is reason for concern..maybe not to you...

BTW,you are a year late in your argument for tanking the season.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Waste of draft pick, waste of GM. Besides steph getting here I have yet to cheer for any of these moves.


Seriously KBF,i know you like to go balistic every now and then,but this is the 44th pick in the draft,in a really WEAK draft.

And Memphis picked # 50 so I suggest you do the research once again and see who is mistaken.Ill five you a hint,its not me.. Mr West did pass on 3 of the 4 guys you mentioned and the 4th guy was already selected.And that 4th guy Jin,had horrific workouts in Chicago...

So I ask you once again,is Jerry West the worst GM in the league with IT since he also passed on every guy you like???

KBF,its the 44th pick in the draft..Save your venom for some event that may actually impact the team


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> Seriously KBF,i know you like to go balistic every now and then,but this is the 44th pick in the draft,in a really WEAK draft.


This draft wasn't weak. It just wasn't filled with stars.



> And Memphis picked # 50 so I suggest you do the research once again and see who is mistaken.


I did, and I explained why they didn't need Drejer or Sato.



> Jin,had horrific workouts in Chicago...


But had a decent showing in the olympics... take your pick. Tiago Splitter ahd a ****ty workout too. You can say he's not ready or euro this euro that or you can say that he was in the middle of the Euro league finals.

One workout does not make or break a player, unless you're an idiot.



> So I ask you once again,is Jerry West the worst GM in the league with IT since he also passed on every guy you like???


No, I look at his roster, and again let me restate this point that you skipped over. HE FILLED A TEAM NEED. WITH HIS ****TY DRAFT PICK.



> KBF,its the 44th pick in the draft..Save your venom for some event that may actually impact the team


Again, I don't care if it's the 23098923085032985-089325-4239850-983245-042385-239845-9803245 pick in the draft. Pick someone that can impact or help the team.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Again, I don't care if it's the 23098923085032985-089325-4239850-983245-042385-239845-9803245 pick in the draft. Pick someone that can impact or help the team.


KBF,IT i s not in the business of pulling rabbits out of hats..I REPEAT..Its the 44th pick in the draft,and the guys you mentioned are not going to impact the team or help it in any way..You think any of those guys are better than DJ???

i can nit believe we are arguing over IT and his performance dur to the 44the pick.... in june


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

If Crawford came/comes to NY he is starting...PERIOD over Allan Houston. I don't care how much money H2O is making. Crawford brings a dynamic that Houston just doesn't have...atheleticism. Even if Crawford originally starts on the bench, it won't be long before he starts ala John Starks. You see, H2O has been here before. He needs to know that he is an overpaid, one dimensional player. If Allan's game was all of that he would have helped Patrick, LJ, and John get a ring a long time ago. He came into his game too late, and after last year, I'm not holding my breath that returns to '02 form. I'd rather start the young buck next to Marbury and dare anybody to stop them. This also takes pressure off of Tim Thomas. He can be the third scorer and relax. I'm not going to diss our team nor am I going to resort to name calling. We can disagree and leave it that, but there aren't any gangster's here or chumps. leave all that other stuff alone.


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> No reason too.


Hello! I give my reasons later!



> Who isn't athletic in the draft? That term is so useless unless he is atheltic like milicic or igdoula or some other freak.


The point is Ariza is a lot more athletic the most players iin the draft. He is possibily around the same level as Iguodala or just a notch below. He is athletic even when compared to mos draft prospects.



> The hell he does.


Why doesn't he have a lot of potential? He is athletic with a great feeling for the game. Ask around, that is what most scouts are saying. He hasn't come close to achieveing hispotential yet but that doesn't mean he doesn't have any. Look at Darko this year, he sucked and looked worse than Ariza did playing for UCLA. Does that mean he has no potential. 



> Average defender with a lot of work. He'll never be that good of a defender, he's to stupid. He bites on every fake ala spreewell.


Good defenser with work. Too stupid? Come on, thats not that the majority of people say. He is already decent anyway. He and Iguodala were probably 2 of the best perimeter defenders in the Pac-10 this year. 



> I agree with you here, I want a lottery pick in 2005


??? I don't get this.



> It's not even close.


not even close? That usually means that I am understating his talents and he should be better. 



> Based on what????


Nased on developing Jermaine, McGrady and other Raptor players.



> Same with Pryzbilla and Cleaves.


Also the same with LeBron, Melo, and Darko. Are you saying they can't be better just because they are 19?



> If you're trying to imply he has high basketball IQ you're sorely mistaken.


He doesn't have poor basketball IQ. He has decent court vision and distriutes decently. He isn't clueless on the court.



> Which is one reason he isn't " Athletic" isn't going to be a defensive stopper, and is a HUGE REASON HE WILL BE A BUST. Guys who can't power it to the rack better knock down a shot. He can't do either.


I don;t get your first sentence, but strength can be added. Have him work out a lot during the summer and begining of the season. Sweetney had CRAP strength when we drafted him last year, but look at what he did after only half a year. Ariza could add strength.



> Tell that to the league.


What? Explain please.



> But you can find it littered in the draft.


Not true when Ariza has athletic ability few draft prospects have.



> So a guy who needs conditioning, has a medical problem to prevent that, can't shoot, can't over power people, and is competeing for a spot that is layden with veteran's is somehow going to develop? Please.


His medical problem is suppose to be not as serious now. It doesn't mean he cant condition for sure. I think he can develope for sure. Just because he can't do something now doesn't mean he can't develope.


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

Oh btw, who said Jin has performed well in the Olympics? He has NOT played in the Olympics yet! What are you talking about? The Olympics this year havn't started yet, and unless you are saying he played for Korea when he was 14 he hasnever played in the olympics yet. You are probably talking abuot he World Junior Campionship. Sure he played decently, but it was against people his own age group and a lot shorter than he was. You think he could do that against NBA centers? In the Asian Championship Games he got dominated, especially against China and Yao Ming.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dcrono3</b>!
> 
> 
> Hello! I give my reasons later!


Than shutup til then. Explain yourself stop with the inane speculation.




> The point is Ariza is a lot more athletic the most players iin the draft. He is possibily around the same level as Iguodala or just a notch below. He is athletic even when compared to mos draft prospects.


You didn't watch him at UCLA, you have no clue what you are talking about. He couldn't hold Warricks jock.



> Why doesn't he have a lot of potential? He is athletic with a great feeling for the game. Ask around, that is what most scouts are saying. He hasn't come close to achieveing hispotential yet but that doesn't mean he doesn't have any. Look at Darko this year, he sucked and looked worse than Ariza did playing for UCLA. Does that mean he has no potential.


Horrible comparision. You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. He doesn't have potential because he doesn't have the tools. Read my god damn post you dip****.

Darko did more in the Serbian leagues than Ariza did in college, the fact that you would try and compare the two shows you have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. HALF OF THE PLAYERS ON HIS TEAM COULDN'T MAKE THE NBDL.




> Good defenser with work. Too stupid? Come on, thats not that the majority of people say. He is already decent anyway. He and Iguodala were probably 2 of the best perimeter defenders in the Pac-10 this year.


Oh please, did you even watch washington versus UCLA. Ariza was exposed.



> ??? I don't get this.


Think. What could make us get a higher pick



> not even close? That usually means that I am understating his talents and he should be better.


Not in english.



> Nased on developing Jermaine, McGrady and other Raptor players.


Jermaine didn't develop because of him neither did Mcgrady. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.



> Also the same with LeBron, Melo, and Darko. Are you saying they can't be better just because they are 19?


No, they haven't peaked. What the hell post are you reading to come up with this ****?



> He doesn't have poor basketball IQ. He has decent court vision and distriutes decently. He isn't clueless on the court.


He has low b-ball IQ. Why do you think he left when his stock was somewhat high? He learned from Kapono. He bites on every fake and averaged a lot of turnovers in the games I saw.



> I don;t get your first sentence, but strength can be added. Have him work out a lot during the summer and begining of the season.


Read it again then.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i only saw him play once, and i didnt even notice he was on the court, since the entire team sucked. If he had good court vision, wouldnt he make his teammates better? They got blown out by the worst team in st johns history. im sorry trevor, but if i was a potential nba player, i wouldnt have my team sucking that bad.


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

Yo cool it, what did I ever say to make you curse at me so much? For one, what is wrong with posting your opinion first and backing it up later? That is a form of basic writing, including English. 



> Horrible comparision. You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. He doesn't have potential because he doesn't have the tools. Read my god damn post you dip****.


I say he has potential and you say he doesn't. Why does your opinion mean more than mine? Is your post 100% accurate? I ask you questions about your post because I don't understand. You could just clarify and it would be a lot easier. Whats the point of rereading your post over and over if I don't get your train of thoguht? Instead of yelling profanity you could just explain. 

Since this is obviously going nowhere I won't respond to everything you said. Just cool it ok? I'm here to talk basketball, not to make enemies. And why is the question of English coming up over and over again.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

What question of engish are you talking about?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

KBF,why dont you mellow the $%^& out...Just because someone has a difference of an opinion doesnt make them less knowledgable than you...

The guys you mentioned may or may not be better than Ariza.Time will tell,and no matter how ballistic you go,it wont change the outcome


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Anyway, the Knicks are still taking a look at some of those as yet undrafted, and depending on what moves are made this off-season, who knows how many spots there'll even be on the roster for rookies.

I gotta figure Deke, Othella, and Trybanski will be gone, but it may not be until the Feb trade deadline, and we don't know how many bodies will come back at us in their trade. Also, good chance if Isiah is pursuing bigger fish with the MLE and LLE we'll be losing Baker and Dermarr, but those roster spots will be filled by them or other FAs.

In the meantime, we have 13 guys on the roster now, and that's without Baker and Dermarr, who will be replaced. So we don't even know if there is room for Ariza, or any other rookie for that matter.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> KBF,why dont you mellow the $%^& out...Just because someone has a difference of an opinion doesnt make them less knowledgable than you...
> 
> The guys you mentioned may or may not be better than Ariza.Time will tell,and no matter how ballistic you go,it wont change the outcome


Who asked you? Because I'm not satisfied with the Knick's pick, and happen to have a strong opinion of Ariza I should just " mellow" out deal with it, the guy is an *** clown. 

I'd do the same thing if anyone ran all over these boards thinking Shandon Andersen or Jacques Vaughn had some potential, and was a good draft choice.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Who asked you? Because I'm not satisfied with the Knick's pick, and happen to have a strong opinion of Ariza I should just " mellow" out deal with it, the guy is an *** clown.


Nobody asked me,I offered...As i said over and over you are more than entitled to spew on Ariza.I havent a clue to this guy,nor any of the guys you mentioned, other than what i have read.

Be it contrary or in agreement with you is irrelavant.You have seen these guys play and I havent.But that doent mean your opinion is the only one.Dcrono3 is entitled to his opinion as well ,and you dont have to attack him to get your point across.

How about presenting an argument based on some numbers or scouting reports other than personal attacks.They tend to minimise the validity of your "observations"


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> Nobody asked me,I offered...As i said over and over you are more than entitled to spew on Ariza.I havent a clue to this guy,nor any of the guys you mentioned, other than what i have read.


Here's a tip then, if you're offering don't pretend like what you say has any authority or relevance to anyone but yourself.



> Be it contrary or in agreement with you is irrelavant.You have seen these guys play and I havent.But that doent mean your opinion is the only one.Dcrono3 is entitled to his opinion as well ,and you dont have to attack him to get your point across.


I can attack his judgements as much as I please especially if I know he or anyone else is dead wrong. He wants to build Trevor up with his opinions fine, I'll tear him right back down to reality.



> How about presenting an argument based on some numbers or scouting reports other than personal attacks.They tend to minimise the validity of your "observations"


I already gave you my scouting report, sited a game, and his free throw statistics. Pay more attention if you want anyone to take your observations seriously. Nobody wants to waste time rewriting things for you.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

KBF,you can attack anyones judgement,but dont you think it underscores your argument when you attack the person??

As for being an authority,everything I read is pretty much contrary to your opinion.That doesnt make me right or wrong as all you are doing is speculating on the future and only time will tell..

I am glad you know beyond a shadow of doubt that he is dead wrong.That is a ludicrous statement,but you seem to make them all the time..



> I already gave you my scouting report, sited a game, and his free throw statistics. Pay more attention if you want anyone to take your observations seriously. Nobody wants to waste time rewriting things for you.


KBF,I will satrt paying attention to you when you stop your B.S and stop spewing.Siting a game is a joke,and your opinion on players potential is worthless.Since you LOVE Hakim Warrick,why dont you open your eyes and take a good hard look at his FT percentage his freshman year..It was 38%...And he averaged 6 points per game....

So much for your in depth analysis of Ariza...Lighten up


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> KBF,you can attack anyones judgement,but dont you think it underscores your argument when you attack the person??
> 
> As for being an authority,everything I read is pretty much contrary to your opinion.That doesnt make me right or wrong as all you are doing is speculating on the future and only time will tell..
> ...


What the hell are you talking about?


I love Hakim Warrick? WTF? Are you on Acid?

If everything you've read is contradictory to what I've stated, than you need to get your nose out of the world weekly news. I make ludicrous statements all the time? Name 3? Furthermore, do you not remember your incessant stalking of Rasheed. You were like a jilted lover with that guy, who the hell are you to call anyone ludicrous?


Seriously you're acting like I punched his dog in the nuts, when all I did was call his opinions foolish, and ridicule his understanding of my posts. Grow the **** up, if you can't deal with people who can't stand being misread, and who provide strong facts with strong language, head over the portland board and sing cumbayah or some ****.


God damn cry me a ****ing river.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> I love Hakim Warrick? WTF? Are you on Acid?


After telling Drcrono


> Than shutup til then. Explain yourself stop with the inane speculation


you were the one who said,and i quote



> You didn't watch him at UCLA, you have no clue what you are talking about. He couldn't hold Warricks jock.


So i would have to infer that you feel Warrick is a much better player than Ariza.Yet if you took a minute to actually look at Warrick freshman stats versus Ariza you would see that Ariza has better numbers..Warrick shot 38% from the FT line which is one of your major complaints against Ariza.Warrick also avg 6 points per game and 4 boards his first year,which is also less than Arisa.



> Seriously you're acting like I punched his dog in the nuts, when all I did was call his opinions foolish, and ridicule his understanding of my posts. Grow the **** up, if you can't deal with people who can't stand being misread


I would say you directly attack other posters if they disagree with you,but somehow you dont see it.Remember this??



> You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. He doesn't have potential because he doesn't have the tools. Read my god damn post you dip****.


Strong facts??Doubtful..Strong language?yup,thats you....


Maybe you should go to the Portland board as you seem to have the problem,not me..Lighten up KBF,its June :yes:


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

"Warrick also avg 6 points per game and 4 boards his first year,which is also less than Arisa."

Warricks team was actually GOOD, i think Arizas UCLA team only won 10 games. Thats why Warricks numbers were lower, as Trevors were higher.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Warricks team may have been good,but that doesnt explain why he shot 38% from the free throw line...

I went to Syracuse,so I am certainly a big fan of Warrick.And in no way am i saying Arisa will be the next Warrick...

I was just looking for some consistency in the argument as to why Arisa is such a waste of a pick at 44,when he compares favorably to Warrick...


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> After telling Drcrono
> ...


Let me help you with this one. Since you too seem to misread things to easily. There's a not so hidden meaning in that comparision.

Warrick isn't great by any stretch of the imagination. So, if Trevor can't hold Warrick's jock, what does that make trevor.

To make it simpler, if I say, Blake Stepp can't hold Shandon Andersen's jock what does that make him in terms of how he can play Basketball.



> So i would have to infer that you feel Warrick is a much better player than Ariza.


I would have to infer that you jump to conclusions without looking at all possible angles.



> Yet if you took a minute to actually look at Warrick freshman stats versus Ariza you would see that Ariza has better numbers..Warrick shot 38% from the FT line which is one of your major complaints against Ariza.Warrick also avg 6 points per game and 4 boards his first year,which is also less than Arisa.


Check that against his touches, it's a different story but again, see my comments above.


> I would say you directly attack other posters if they disagree with you,but somehow you dont see it.Remember this??


If you consider that an attack, you need to grab some thicker skin. I've heard worse from Taxi cab drivers.


> Strong facts??Doubtful..Strong language?yup,thats you....


Besides the olympic's and Jin, name 3 things I have posted that were erroneous and not backed up by statistical evidence ?


> Maybe you should go to the Portland board as you seem to have the problem,not me..Lighten up KBF,its June :yes:


Yeah I'd go over well there. I posted once and they got all nervous about my signature.


But then again, they couldn't see the hidden meaning in it.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> Warricks team may have been good,but that doesnt explain why he shot 38% from the free throw line...
> 
> I went to Syracuse,so I am certainly a big fan of Warrick.And in no way am i saying Arisa will be the next Warrick...
> ...


I'm telling you this kid learned from Kapono. Same scenario, worse team. He's the #1 option, he gets a decent portion of the plays run for him. Yet he still finds a way to goof things up.

Maybe he will turn around, hell, if Arenas can do it so can he, but it's not very likely. Again compare him to Jin or one of those other big guys or Sato, or Drejer.


You know, the guys I listed.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> "Warrick also avg 6 points per game and 4 boards his first year,which is also less than Arisa."
> 
> Warricks team was actually GOOD, i think Arizas UCLA team only won 10 games. Thats why Warricks numbers were lower, as Trevors were higher.


Glad someone else noticed this.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

KBF,I actually like your insanity..I am from NYC and can appreciate your style..You can give it and take it ..

I dont find you offensive,i find you entertaining,but you did squash the dialogue with your sparring partner.And calling someone a dip#$%^ may be considered an attack



> Yo cool it, what did I ever say to make you curse at me so much


What i would really like to do is have some sort of a pool where we can back up our prognostications...Then we can see who know what they are talking about


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Warrick isn't great by any stretch of the imagination


Another thing we dont agree on...i say he goes top 3 in the draft barring major injury..


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> KBF,I actually like your insanity..I am from NYC and can appreciate your style..You can give it and take it ..
> 
> I dont find you offensive,i find you entertaining,but you did squash the dialogue with your sparring partner.And calling someone a dip#$%^ may be considered an attack
> ...


I'm down for that.

Oh and Warrick top 3??

No way. Cracks the lottery maybe but not a Top 3 canidate. To many quality Euro's.


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## supaazn (Feb 18, 2003)

b+ for isiah thomas? yea ok. this is basically what thomas did. he screwed the knicks future just to make the playoffs this year. he traded draft picks, traded away players with potential , made the cap space situation worser by taking more bad contracts (hardaway, marbury and signing kurt thomas to that idiotic extension). not to mention the hiring of lenny wilkins. i think he did that just because he had the msot wins and didnt care about the fact that he also had the most loses. the only good thing he did was make the knicks a slightly better and a little more bearable to watch because of marbury. and now he wants to sign jamal crawford with the mle? come on first of all that makes the cap space situtation worser and wut is crawford gona play? pg or sg. marbury will start at pg and houston will probably start at sg. i dont see crawford being any good as a backup unless you want to start him over houston and you'll have a 100 million dollar backup. the knicks need a descent center not someone like crawford.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

supaanz, thanks for your thoughts on Isiah. They are so thoroughly fresh and original. We really need more posters like you to open our eyes for us, cause we don't know what the heck is going on around here. :| 

Houston (Allan) is cooked. He wont start more than half the games next year. I recently read that his knee(s) is still tender and he can't touch the rim yet. Shandon was his big-minutes backup because Penny's legs are at reduced capacity. Shandon must never play another minute for this team. It is imperative we replace Houston with a starter, for now and for the future. Knicks have holes at several positions, but so long as Shandon starts, they need no position filled with greater urgency than SG.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Seriously. I'd rather have that dog that shoots basketballs by crashing it's face into them, than have shandon play.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Can someone please explain to me HOW IT mortgaged the future??

This years draft was the weakest that I can remember in a long long time.So we gave up the 16th pick.Does anyone realistically think that pick was going to be better than DJ??

Unless you think Lampe is the second coming of Dirk,this argument doesnt hold water.It is simply not true.We were in cap hell till 2007,so what is the difference who we sign and to how much??

And do any of the IT bashers remember what it was like to actually watch the Knicks before him???I would happily choose getting drilled in the dentist office without novacaine..Do you guys remember Howard Eisly at the point and Clarance Weatherspoon??

Crawford will start,plain and simple.Do you really think Dolan and IT are happy with H20 getting paid 17 per and refusing to have surgery???? 

You may not like the traders IT made,but in no way did he mortgage the future by the Marbury trade.Think about it.Marbury is a young superstar.We gave up Lampe,RIGHTS to vaporKnick,Dyss,a garbage pick and a conditional pick.

In my book that is an absolute steal


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Right, and it's not like we gave up McDyess. He was in the last year of his contract, so we gave up his salary while he rode the exercise bike. As a FA he's as available to our future as he was when we let him go. Most of the other vets were a blessing to be free of.

And it's looking like Vaporknick is STILL not ready for the NBA, and may never be ready for the NBA, so what's his worth? Zilch to nada.

So we really got Marbury for three draft picks. One was a mid-round pick in a weak draft, the other conditional (I'm still not clear on what decides when it's taken/given) and a nice prospect in Lampe: a Euro highschooler. Not Shaq, Lampe.

Are 3 picks hard to give up? Sure, but are they a future? Lets put that in perspective. Since 1995 we've drafted 17 players. Of them a total of 4 have ever played a single game for us. Those 4 are Sweetney, Postell, McCarty, and John Wallace. Whoopie! Of those 17 picks only one has any possible role in our future, and at that rate I'm not sure any of the 3 picks we gave up would have ever played a single game for us. Steph has already contributed more to our team than all 17 picks combined.

If any of us ever want to establish some security and net worth we will at some point decide to own a home. You will need a down payment and will more than likely pay for the remaining balance with a mortgage. That home, with it's mortgage, is part of your wealth, security and success. 

The biggest real estate developers in the world, from Trump on up, all finance (mortgage) their projects and do phenomenally well by it. You have to stop thinking of a mortgage as a road to ruin. 

Our house is being built with Marbury as one of the cornerstones. Those 3 draft prospects were nothing but a sensible down payment.


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## knicks235 (May 20, 2003)

couldent have said it better son of oakley, also the contitional pick is top 20 protected so that makes the marbury trade even sweeter.

in reality the knicks traded the 16th pick and a pick from 20-30/lampe/vujacic(who i saw play in a game on NBA TV and i was not very impressed) for marbury and penny thats prety damn good


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## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

to be fair, the pick this year would probably have been better than 16 bc the knicks would have lost more games--still it would have been at best 7-10, meaning Deng at best, Luke Jackson at worst (tho NYK might have picked differently). still, this doesn't seem like much to cry over, and remember that we got out from under Eisley as well, who had multiple yrs at an obscene salary remaining. i'm with son of oakley who had an excellent post a month or so ago about it all being about 2007 and just trying to be as competive and exciting as possible until then...when Lebron comes to NYC


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Well said Oak,and may I add...Mr Thomas,please get us Jamal Crawford.......


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

And for all you VaporKnick fans(vujanic),looks like the Suns have given up on his sorry asss..They just came to terms with Steve Nash


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Yeah, his rights will be well traveled before his career is over.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Never will understand that guy's full story, he looks like a great scorer, I wonder if he's all about the money or maybe hates america.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

oak,i hope this puts an end to the marbury trade,and all those vapornick lovers.....the guy was concerned he couldnt beat out eisly and ward..that says it all....


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> oak,i hope this puts an end to the marbury trade,and all those vapornick lovers.....the guy was concerned he couldnt beat out eisly and ward..that says it all....


You don't know that. The guy is talented, that's not where his problem lies.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

oops, quoted the wrong guy before. This should make more sense:



> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> oak,i hope this puts an end to the marbury trade,and all those vapornick lovers.....the guy was concerned he couldnt beat out eisly and ward..that says it all....


Yeah, and don't forget the mighty Barbosa.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> You don't know that. The guy is talented, that's not where his problem lies.


That's what Rashidi always told us, that he didn't want to ride the pine.

The irony is that he could have started for us pre-Marbury at PG, and now he could probably start at SG.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> You don't know that. The guy is talented, that's not where his problem lies.


You are right..I havent a clue to why he never joined the Knicks.I would guess it was a money issue..

Did vaporKnick tell the Suns he wasnt coming over??
Or is he no longer viewed a an NBA point guard?

Regardless,it does make the marbury trade look that much better


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> You are right..I havent a clue to why he never joined the Knicks.I would guess it was a money issue..
> ...


I read somewhere he wanted to stay one more year and finish out his contract.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> I read somewhere he wanted to stay one more year and finish out his contract.


KBF,if that is true layden was a bigger idiot than I ever imagined..

Didnt he ask him apx what year he was thinking about coming over???

Finish out his contract??

What a $%%^&^ ing joke


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> KBF,if that is true layden was a bigger idiot than I ever imagined..
> ...


Yeah remember he wanted to come here but layden didn't want to shell out so he signed I think a 3 year deal for over a million. 

Who knows though, that guy has a weird agenda. I think something's up with him not basketball related.


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## marcus_camby (Feb 28, 2004)

i think maciej lampe does not play in the same position that sweetney...
i say to play maciej in spain in real madrid, and also maciej is tall as a pf he cannot play in that place because he has not lot of movements in low post like a pf needs.

his game is based in speed and perimetral trhows. i think lampe will be a good player if he plays as small forward.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

small foward??? i dont know if he has the quickness to guard small fowards...

phoenix is the wrong place for him behins Amare and Marion


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