# Is Kevin Love a Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited as a #2 Option?



## Basel

@R-Star mentioned in the game thread that Love puts up nice numbers but doesn't help his team win. What's the consensus in that? Can he be the main player on a championship team or is he more like a Pau Gasol type player in that he would be a perfect second option (imagine pairing him with someone like Kevin Durant)?


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## R-Star

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*

You mentioned he can only put up so many nice stats and that he can't do everything on his own, and I agree. Well that's not true, I used to agree. 

There were a handful of posters calling Love a fraud a few years ago. I argued, I posted his stats, I said that when Rubio came back things would all work out, and 2 years later and he's still living off the same excuses.

The guy puts up empty stats. That's all there is to it. If you're putting up those kind of numbers your team should be winning, not struggling to make the playoffs, especially in a year as odd as this one where the Phoenix Suns, who were expected to fight for the number one pick are looking like a legit top 10 team. 

He doesn't get the argument of not having help anymore. KMart is averaging right around 20ppg right now. Who else can say they have a 20ppg guy as their 2nd option? A very small selection of teams, which means the "he has no help, he can only do so much" argument I tried in the past and some are still trying now is debunked. 

You take help away from a star player, a real star player anyways, and they're still going to claw to try to make the playoffs. Lebron and Durant now, Dirk, Wade and Kobe before them and so on, those are guys who could win you games. They gave you the amazing stat sheet, but more importantly they won you games. With Love, you just get the stats. 

Put him as a #2 option beside a real star and you've got a possible dynasty caliber duo. But alone? He just isn't a winner.


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*

I think he could be the best player on a championship team, but I don't think he could be the guy a championship team runs their offense through, if that makes sense. He isn't good enough at creating his own shot and commanding doubles, so you can't really run your offense through him. Obviously he doesn't anchor your defense in any way. 

He adds a lot to your team, but he doesn't really give your team any identity like all franchise players do immediately upon stepping on the floor. Elite scorers and play makers instantly draw defensive attention, and instantly their teammates benefit from better spacing and opportunities. This instantly creates a style of play and an identity that can be polished and honed. Defensive anchors instantly give more room for error for their teammates, creating a defensive identity the same way. 

Love doesn't really do any of that. I'd like to see what kind of team people think he would require to win a championship.


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*

I didn't realize this was in the Timberwolves forum when I clicked your link. This will probably be the last post in this thread.


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## Basel

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*

@Bubbles @NK1990 What do you guys think?


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## Basel

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I think he could be the best player on a championship team, but I don't think he could be the guy a championship team runs their offense through, if that makes sense. He isn't good enough at creating his own shot and commanding doubles, so you can't really run your offense through him. Obviously he doesn't anchor your defense in any way.
> 
> He adds a lot to your team, but he doesn't really give your team any identity like all franchise players do immediately upon stepping on the floor. Elite scorers and play makers instantly draw defensive attention, and instantly their teammates benefit from better spacing and opportunities. This instantly creates a style of play and an identity that can be polished and honed. Defensive anchors instantly give more room for error for their teammates, creating a defensive identity the same way.
> 
> Love doesn't really do any of that. I'd like to see what kind of team people think he would require to win a championship.


What kind of roster do you think you could surround him with in which he would be the best player but the offense wouldn't go through him?


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## MemphisX

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*

I don't think Love is ever going to be a player in which a championship level defense has to double team to slow down from scoring or to keep him off the boards. Which pretty much makes him a sexier Loul Deng type player. 

In fact, the whole thing means his numbers to an extent are fraudulent in that he is not the level of player his numbers would suggest. 

My only caveat is that he needs to get into the playoffs and produce similar numbers.


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*



MemphisX said:


> I don't think Love is ever going to be a player in which a championship level defense has to double team to slow down from scoring or to keep him off the boards. Which pretty much makes him a sexier Loul Deng type player.


Except Deng is a much better man defender. 

I would love to see Love in a situation like what Zach Randolph found in Memphis. With Conley, Gasol, and Allen (and to a lesser extent Prince/Pondexter) taking care of the defensive end, Zach is free to rebound and score. If Love could somehow get himself in that type of situation, he could win a title as the best player on that team.


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## PauloCatarino

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*



RollWithEm said:


> I would love to see Love in a situation like what Zach Randolph found in Memphis. With Conley, Gasol, and Allen (and to a lesser extent Prince/Pondexter) taking care of the defensive end, Zach is free to rebound and score. If Love could somehow get himself in that type of situation, he could win a title as the best player on that team.


This is the correct answer: give Love a team that, defensive-wise, can hide his individual flaws, and his offense can carry a team to the championship (given, off course, the talent of the team).

The key here is: can Love dominate games? Yes. He is a dominant scorer and rebounder. Minny already has a reliable second-scorer (to prevent teams from crowding Love). IF (big if, off course) Love is surrounded by capable defensive players, his team can thrive.

Heck, how exactly did Allen Iverson get to the NBA Finals?


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## R-Star

People make it sound easy though. There really aren't that many good defenders around the league. There's adequate guys, but good defenders? As in being above average at worst? To fill out the rest of a team with guys like that is a tall order.

Not to mention that means you're shipping out Rubio. It would be a rebuild. Kevin Love isn't sticking around for a rebuild.


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## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> Not to mention that means you're shipping out Rubio. It would be a rebuild. Kevin Love isn't sticking around for a rebuild.


Rubio is a well above average defender for a PG. 

Iman Shumpert is gettable. 

Pek can be moved for a defensive center.

It's not impossible.

That being said, I still think Love's best chance to win a championship is to get out of Minnesota as soon as he possible can.


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## Basel

I feel bad for Minnesota fans. First KG leaves and then wins a ring. Love, in all likelihood, will leave. And if he signs with another team and star and wins a ring, that's going to sting. 

Love should be a better defender than he is, by the way. No idea why he can't figure out that part of the game.


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## RollWithEm

Basel said:


> Love should be a better defender than he is, by the way. No idea why he can't figure out that part of the game.


Part of it is his incessant need to rebound. He fails to contest shots on occasion because he doesn't want to loose good rebounding position. This especially occurs on jumpers between 10 and 15 feet near the middle of the floor. He just looks at shooters and then immediately starts boxing out. It's funny to watch when you start noticing it.


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*



Basel said:


> What kind of roster do you think you could surround him with in which he would be the best player but the offense wouldn't go through him?


It depends on where you rank him as a player I guess. If he is in your top 10 in the 6-8 range, then I think this roster would do it. Otherwise, you might think Parker is better than him. 

PG- Tony Parker
SG- Klay Thompson
SF- Nicolas Batum
PF- Kevin Love
C- Tyson Chandler

I think with a dynamic scoring and drive-and-dish point guard like Parker, good to elite shooters like Thompson, Batum and Love spreading the floor, you'd have an offensive identity. It would be kind of like the Spurs, driven by spacing, ball movement and shooting. Keep the driving lanes open. Chandler and Love are both awesome offensive rebounders. Chandler is capable of covering for Love's defensive deficiencies, and Batum, Thompson and Parker are all solid to good defenders. Especially in the right system. This would be an elite offensive team and a good defensive team. 

I think that's a championship team that doesn't run through Love, but instead relies on an offensive identity pieced together by management. He is the best player on the team that doesn't run through any particular player. It has two all-stars and three really good role players which is about what it takes for any team to win a title these days.


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## Basel

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> It depends on where you rank him as a player I guess. If he is in your top 10 in the 6-8 range, then I think this roster would do it. Otherwise, you might think Parker is better than him.
> 
> PG- Tony Parker
> SG- Klay Thompson
> SF- Nicolas Batum
> PF- Kevin Love
> C- Tyson Chandler
> 
> I think with a dynamic scoring and drive-and-dish point guard like Parker, good to elite shooters like Thompson, Batum and Love spreading the floor, you'd have an offensive identity. It would be kind of like the Spurs, driven by spacing, ball movement and shooting. Keep the driving lanes open. Chandler and Love are both awesome offensive rebounders. Chandler is capable of covering for Love's defensive deficiencies, and Batum, Thompson and Parker are all solid to good defenders. Especially in the right system. This would be an elite offensive team and a good defensive team.
> 
> I think that's a championship team that doesn't run through Love, but instead relies on an offensive identity pieced together by management. He is the best player on the team that doesn't run through any particular player. It has two all-stars and three really good role players which is about what it takes for any team to win a title these days.


That would be a great team. Easily championship contenders with Love as the best player. But no way I can realistically see a team like that being built around him.


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*



Basel said:


> That would be a great team. Easily championship contenders with Love as the best player. But no way I can realistically see a team like that being built around him.


Exactly. It's much harder to build a championship team without that foundational player you can anchor your offense and/or defense around. It's why the NBA is thought to be a superstars league.


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> PG- Tony Parker
> SG- Klay Thompson
> SF- Nicolas Batum
> PF- Kevin Love
> C- Tyson Chandler


Obviously not with the same players, but isn't this the same type of team Portland just built around Aldridge?


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## Basel

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*



RollWithEm said:


> Obviously not with the same players, but isn't this the same type of team Portland just built around Aldridge?


Except that Robin Lopez isn't near the defensive player that Tyson Chandler is.


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*



RollWithEm said:


> Obviously not with the same players, but isn't this the same type of team Portland just built around Aldridge?


Yeah basically. Parker is a slight upgrade over Lillard, Klay and Chandler are upgrades over Wes and Lopez. I think Love is a little better than Aldridge also.


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## MemphisX

I don't think Love is better than Aldridge. I don't think he is better than Blake Griffin either.

However, I have never seen Love's opponents gameplan for him. Other team's are not taking the T'Wolves seriously enough. 

Also, the excuses for Love are getting old.


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## Basel

What do you think Aldridge and Griffin do better than Love? Worse?


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## MemphisX

They can create their own shot against good defenders. Love can't.


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## Bubbles

*Re: Is Kevin Love A Legitimate #1 Option or Would He Be Better Suited As A #2 Option?*



RollWithEm said:


> Except Deng is a much better man defender.
> 
> I would love to see Love in a situation like what Zach Randolph found in Memphis. With Conley, Gasol, and Allen (and to a lesser extent Prince/Pondexter) taking care of the defensive end, Zach is free to rebound and score. If Love could somehow get himself in that type of situation, he could win a title as the best player on that team.


That would be the perfect situation for him. Nikola Pekovic isn't much for defense either. Probably the worst post defense in the league.


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## NK1990

As much as it pains me, he is more of a 2nd option player. More times then not he can't be counted on to create his own shot.


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## RollWithEm

Basel said:


> What do you think Aldridge and Griffin do better than Love? Worse?


Aldridge and Griffin are better one-on-one players. None of the three are above average defenders. Griffin is the best overall passer and finisher at the rim of the three. Aldridge is the best midrange shooter and most versatile pick-and-roll player. Love is the best rebounder, 3-pt shooter, outlet passer, and free throw shooter in this group. 

I consider them all fairly equal at the top of the PF rankings. Until one of them truly steps up and carries his team to some playoff success, they'll all be jumbled together pretty tightly for me.


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## Basel

Here's a question for you: do you think Love will get better at those aspects of the game or is this how he's going to continue to be going forward?


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## Sir Patchwork

I think Griffin is the best of the three, and Aldridge is the worst of the three, but they're all jumbled up pretty close together. 

I do think it's unfair to hold it against Love that he can't carry a team, while giving a pass to Griffin who is a sidekick to Chris Paul. Even Aldridge has Lillard, who has probably been 1b to Aldridge this year, in my opinion. 

I agree that Love is the worst of the three at creating his own shot 1 on 1, but I don't think that's all that matters in basketball.


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## Basel

Sir Patchwork said:


> I think Griffin is the best of the three, and Aldridge is the worst of the three, but they're all jumbled up pretty close together.
> 
> I do think it's unfair to hold it against Love that he can't carry a team, while giving a pass to Griffin who is a sidekick to Chris Paul. Even Aldridge has Lillard, who has probably been 1b to Aldridge this year, in my opinion.
> 
> I agree that Love is the worst of the three at creating his own shot 1 on 1, but I don't think that's all that matters in basketball.


I don't know that it's so much them getting a pass as much as it is expectations just aren't as high for them as they are for Love due to the numbers he puts up.


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## Sir Patchwork

Basel said:


> I don't know that it's so much them getting a pass as much as it is expectations just aren't as high for them as they are for Love due to the numbers he puts up.


Which I also don't understand, how can expectations be _higher_ for Love if he isn't as good as Aldridge/Griffin? If you have higher expectations for Love than you do for Aldridge/Griffin, that's basically a concession that he is better, or that your expectations are unfair.


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## Basel

Sir Patchwork said:


> Which I also don't understand, how can expectations be _higher_ for Love if he isn't as good as Aldridge/Griffin? If you have higher expectations for Love than you do for Aldridge/Griffin, that's basically a concession that he is better, or that your expectations are unfair.


That's a very good question and one I don't have the answer to. 

For what it's worth, I think Love is the best of the three.


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## RollWithEm

Sir Patchwork said:


> Which I also don't understand, how can expectations be _higher_ for Love if he isn't as good as Aldridge/Griffin? If you have higher expectations for Love than you do for Aldridge/Griffin, that's basically a concession that he is better, or that your expectations are unfair.


The expectations on Love are higher because so many media talking heads have anointed him with the "best power forward" award.


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## Sir Patchwork

RollWithEm said:


> The expectations on Love are higher because so many media talking heads have anointed him with the "best power forward" award.


Those are the media's expectations though, not yours. It's unfair for Love to have higher expectations if he isn't actually much better than Aldridge/Griffin. 

If the media thought Luol Deng was a franchise player, he would only be a disappointment by those standards, not to others who (rightly) see him as a solid roleplayer. 

Love seems to be the most overrated and simultaneously underrated player in the league. People look at stats and think he is a top 5 or so player, and others reject that claim and write him off completely as a loser and stat-stuffer, etc. That's too black and white. He is a really good player. He can have a ton of impact on games.


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## MemphisX

I will continue to say nobody knows who Kevin Love is as a player until he gets to the playoffs. If the T'Wolves get to the playoffs and he produces his regular season performance then it will elevate his status. If his numbers drop then he will be seen as a fraud. If he continues to lead lottery teams, nobody will care much.


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## Basel

They're 2.5 games out of that 8th spot right now and their schedule isn't TOO bad coming up. They need to be above .500 by the All-Star break. I think they'll make it in as a 6-8 seed. Going to be very interesting if they make it in and Love goes against either Griffin or Aldridge.


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