# Game Thread: Pacers vs. Pistons 11/19



## DetBNyce

vs.*








Indiana Pacers** (6-2) vs. Detroit Pistons (4-3)* 

Time: 8:00 PM
Date: Nov. 19, 2004
Venue: Palace of Aurburn Hills
TV: ESPN

*Starting Lineups:*















































Rematch of the Eastern Conference Finals last year. Last season the Pacers won the Season series last year 3-1. 

Who will Reisedogg cheer for ?!?!?!?


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## DetBNyce

Matchups going into Friday Night's game:

PG: Billups vs. Tinsley

A lot of Pacers' fans like to argue that Tinsley is one of the better point guards/pure point guards in the league, but right now Billups is just the better player. Billups needs to play a lot better than he did against the Pacers in the regular season series last year if we are to have a chance to win. Neither will be able to overpower each other like they do other point guards who are smaller than them. Advantage: Pistons

SG: Hamilton vs. S. Jackson

Jackson will be able to put up more of a fight than the aging Reggie Miller, but if Rip can gets going there's no stopping him. Rip also needs to avoid playing like he did against the Pacers during the regular season series. It's a closer battle this year, but Rip still holds the advantage. Advantage: Pistons

SF: Prince vs. Artest

Ron Artest could possibly be the best small forward in the league, Prince is one of the better role players in the league who could put up better numbers in another situation, but he's no Ron Artest. In the past Prince has been pretty bad against Artest, but in the latter part of the series he played Artest pretty well, by using his length, not strength and he had some good results. Hopefullyt the trend can continue. Advantage: Pacers

PF: R. Wallace vs. J. O'neal

Jermaine O'neal is one of the best big men in the league. Rasheed is one of the better one on one post defenders in the league, so it only makes sense that this is the best individual matchup. Sheed will get the majority of the minutes on O'neal, but Campbell, Ben, and maybe DC will get time against him to get him different looks and to keep someone fresh on him. Advantage: Pacers

C: B. Wallace vs. Pollard

Advantage: Pistons






Bench: Pacers

Coaching: Pistons

Intagibles:

The Pacers own the regular season series last and the Pistons the playoff series. Both teams know they can beat the other. Advantage: Even.


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## Lope31

We will win, since it's on my birthday


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## the wall

happpy birthday kabi


Pistons will win this one...we looked real good against Minnesota, plus Bender is out indefinetely which should hurt the Pacer bench.

I was gonna go to the game, but instead I'll be down in Columbus for the Mich/OSU game!!


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## Midnight_Marauder

Pistons 92
Pacers 85

I also predict a fight....probably between Artest and Hamilton.....


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## MLKG

I don't know if anyone caught this in the paper but it's pretty humorous:

In the locker room after the Minnesota game, the Pistons were listening to the ESPN crew dissect their game. 

Greg Anthony was talking about the Pistons, saying, "Larry Brown is a great coach, but Ben Wallace is the biggest reason the Pistons were able to win the game." 

Wallace, who had four steals, three blocked shots and 10 rebounds and helped limit the Timberwolves to a season-low 20 points in the lane, looked up and nodded. 

"Did y'all hear that?" he said, talking in the direction of Elden Campbell and Rasheed Wallace. "Somebody needs to take me out to dinner." 

To which Rasheed Wallace said, "Yeah, well, Ron Artest is a better defender." 

Ben Wallace: "When he's not rapping."


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## Lynx

Couldn't be a better time to teach J.O. a lesson.


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## DetBNyce

"Any time you get two teams competing the way we compete, two teams that pretty much know your every play, and know what play you're going to call before you call it, know what move you're going to make before you make it, it's always tough," Ben Wallace said Thursday. 

Said Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal to reporters in Indiana: "We're ready. They're not playing their best basketball right now, either, so we're fortunate. But they're going to get the same feeling that we're going to get this week. That's setting the tone and seeing who's better. 

"For us it's personal because we lost to them in the Eastern Conference finals. They're champions right now, and they're going to be champions until somebody dethrones them. We want to send a message."


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## Ron Mexico

couldn't of get a picture of Stephen Jackson in a Pacers unifrom?


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## PacersguyUSA

Jackson should be much better defensively on Hamilton than Reggie. 

Getting a good glimpse of Tinsley? 2 headbusts, a steal, and many many great passes.


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## DetBNyce

Terrible start, at least defensively. 34=27 pacera after one. Ron Artest is unreal right now.


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## DetBNyce

Either the Pacers are playing the passing lanes very well or the Pistons are being very careless with the ball, or both. I'm thinking both.


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## DetBNyce

The Pacers have a lineup of Gill, Jones, Jones, Artest, and Harrison on the floor and are increasing the lead. You would think the pistons would cut into the lead.


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## DetBNyce

Fred Jones for 3. The Pacers are pretty much scoring at will. 45-29 Pacers.


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## PacersguyUSA

The Pistons' rebounding has been great so far. That back up point guard for Detroit is awful though, you know being severly outplayed by Gill and all.

Good game so far.


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## MLKG

We had that beautiful line up of Hunter, Parker, Prince, Dyess, and Elden.  

Good to see despite all the criticism we're still giving up wide open jumper after wide open jumper. Pacers are 5-6 from the 3-point line right now and I don't think we had a defender within 10 of the shooter on any of those shots.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> Good game so far.


For you guys at least. I'm very impressed with you guys depth *and* you guys are missing Reggie and Foster.


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## MLKG

Wow. We look good.


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## PacersguyUSA

I must say that the Piston defense is not impressing me. The Pistons might come back in the 2nd half though.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Wow. We look good.


You would think after the Denver and Utah game the Pistons would realize you must play defense to win.


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## PacersguyUSA

I'm also suprised that Billups hasn't taken advantage of his size over Gill.


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## MLKG

Rip and Chauncey have a combined 0 assists.

I think Larry forgot Ben Wallace is on the team.

Yet another game where we don't play in the first half.

I'll call it now. We'll go on a 15-0 run or something in the 4th quarter but we'll still lose by 5 because we don't care enough to play hard all game.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Rip and Chauncey have a combined 0 assists.
> 
> I think Larry forgot Ben Wallace is on the team.


Terrible, terrible, terrible. I'm most concerned about Billups, he's not aggressive at all out there. Rip is at least taking shots.



> Yet another game where we don't play in the first half.
> 
> I'll call it now. We'll go on a 15-0 run or something in the 4th quarter but we'll still lose by 5 because we don't care enough to play hard all game.


That's what I'm thinking.


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## PacersguyUSA

Man Tinsley is good. Jermaine is dissapointing me little right now though.


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## PacersguyUSA

Good call on the technical on Rasheed. It's nice to see they're going to call that this year.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> Good call on the technical on Rasheed. It's nice to see they're going to call that this year.


God call on the tech, but bad call on the foul.


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## MLKG

I really hope this style of officiating doesn't continue all year. It's like any time there is any doubt the refs are automatically calling fouls. If they're not sure- it's a foul, if they don't see it- it's a foul, if they're on the fence-it's a foul. So annoying.

....but not as annoying as watching the Pistons mail in game after game. I didn't get to watch the Minnesota game so the last three games I've seen are Denver, Utah, and this one. Needless to say, I'm pretty down on them as a squad.


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## PacersguyUSA

You have to expect a Piston run comming out of halftime. I'd say the best bet would be to give it to Artest.


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## Pacers Fan

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> God call on the tech, but bad call on the foul.


I knew JO was going to get rejected; but Sheed just rejected him so hard and far that Jermaine fell back. Nice block on Sheed's side, but apparently Reggie is teaching the Pacers how to get calls.


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## Pacers Fan

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> You have to expect a Piston run comming out of halftime. I'd say the best bet would be to give it to Artest.


I know they're going to make a run. I think we should go with the SL, but insert Freddie and Eddie Gill often.


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## PacersguyUSA

Personally, I saw contact on Jermaine's arm from Rasheed Wallace.. *shrug*


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## DetBNyce

The Pistons have to be embarassed, after talking a big game about how they "are ready" for Indiana and they play carelessly offensively and defensively. Our intensity early on in games is worrying me.


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## DetBNyce

McDyess is Okur post Sheed all over again -- no emotion and just flat out lazy.


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## PacersguyUSA

The Pacers could really use Foster and/or Pollard.


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## rainman

where's delfino?


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## DetBNyce

That particular ref has been calling bad calls both ways the entire night.


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## Pacers Fan

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> That particular ref has been calling bad calls both ways the entire night.


Get used to it; this is how it's gonna be the rest of the year.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>rainman</b>!
> where's delfino?


IR with a hurt knee. Joe D. replaced him with Parker.


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## jvanbusk

There's nothing worse than losing to the Pacers, because then you have to listen to a bunch of kids run their mouths.

I start watching this game halfway through the 4th quarter. The first shot I saw the Pistons make was a Rasheed 3 with about 2 and a half minutes left.


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## PacersguyUSA

Classless move by Wallace.


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## PacersguyUSA

Detroit shouldn't be allowed to host anymore games. This is the worst I've seen. Artest should kill someone. j/k


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## jvanbusk

Ron Artest needs to seek help.


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## Midnight_Marauder

BEN WALLACE IS NO BETTER THAN ARTEST..WTF!

That fan needed his *** kicked.....Real classy Auburn Hills........Real classy.....Take your ******* asses over to Joe Louis.....basketball fans dont act like that


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## SacTown16

YO, WHAT'S GOING ON? WHAT HAPPENED?

I don't have the game live..


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## PacersguyUSA

Pacers get the W though right? Nice fight though.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> Classless move by Wallace.


Artest shouldn't have fouled Wallace after the shot. Yes, Wallace was wrong, but Artest as usual was the culprit.


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## jvanbusk

We are talking huge suspensions here.

Ben Wallace.
Stephen Jackson.
Ron Artest.
Jermaine O'Neal.


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## Midnight_Marauder

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Ron Artest needs to seek help.


You know I respect you jvanbusk but come on....Pistons fans showed no class tonight


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## PacersguyUSA

Detroit shouldn't be allowed to have home games for at least half a season.


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## PacersguyUSA

Booo Detroit!! Booo Detroit! Worse fans than Cleveland and Philly.


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## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> 
> 
> You know I respect you jvanbusk but come on....Pistons fans showed no class tonight


I don't disagree. BUT HE ATTACKED A FAN. AS DID O'NEAL AND JACKSON.


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## Pacers Fan

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> We are talking huge suspensions here.
> 
> Ben Wallace.
> Stephen Jackson.
> Ron Artest.
> Jermaine O'Neal.


I'm guessing Jax and Freddie, too.


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## PacersguyUSA

David Harrison shoulda tackled Wallace. That would have taught him. Wallace should be suspended 10 games+


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## PacersguyUSA

Wallace used to be one of my favorite players. Respect for him now: 0. What a pansy!


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## jvanbusk

John Saunders is dispicable.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't disagree. BUT HE ATTACKED A FAN. AS DID O'NEAL AND JACKSON.


Yup. Remember Vernon Maxwell a few years back. Wallace should get a supsenison because of what was the ultimate outcome and Jax and Artest gfor hitting fans.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> Wallace used to be one of my favorite players. Respect for him now: 0. What a pansy!


Did Ron Artest not give a cheap shot first?


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## jvanbusk

This situation is going to be tough. 5 or 6 Pacers were throwing punches at fans.

Yes, the fans acted real classless. But, you just don't attack fans. Ben Wallace initially started the fight on the floor. Ron Artest is the thug that started the melee in the bench.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest shouldn't have fouled Wallace after the shot. Yes, Wallace was wrong, but Artest as usual was the culprit.


What, so you can't foul in the NBA now? It wasn't even hard. That is in no way to punch a player in the throat.


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## Pacers Fan

Who predicted a fight?

I can't wait till game 2!


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## reHEATed

all ron did was foul ben. It really wasnt that hard wither. Ben overreacted and Artest just backed off and laid on the table. SOme idiot threw something at him and he exploded. 

Artest is gonna be gone a while, but Big Ben and the fans are to blame for this


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## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>wadeshaqeddie</b>!
> all ron did was foul ben. It really wasnt that hard wither. Ben overreacted and Artest just backed off and laid on the table. SOme idiot threw something at him and he exploded.
> 
> Artest is gonna be gone a while, but Big Ben and the fans are to blame for this


Artest shouldn't take any blame?


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> This situation is going to be tough. 5 or 6 Pacers were throwing punches at fans.
> 
> Yes, the fans acted real classless. But, you just don't attack fans. Ben Wallace initially started the fight on the floor. Ron Artest is the thug that started the melee in the bench.


Actually it was the fan that threw the beer with ice in his face from point blank range while he was resting that started the melee.

I imagine Wallace, Hamilton, Hunter will be suspended (they were in the crowd too), along with Artest and Jackson.

Probably more.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> What, so you can't foul in the NBA now? It wasn't even hard. That is in no way to punch a player in the throat.


The game is already decided why foul a guy in the back. Why? It was totally unnecessary. Yes Ben was wrong, but without a Ron Artest "foul" *none* of this happens.


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## PacersguyUSA

Can the league impose any restrictions on Detoit's fans? Worst.fans.ever.

Jackson had a nice hit on one of the fans.

Awww, I wish I was there so bad, so I could yell slurs at the pistons fans and throw crap at them lol. I love fights, immature, yes I know, but it's a guilty pleasure.


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## SacTown16

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> The game is already decided why foul a guy in the back. Why? It was totally unnecessary. Yes Ben was wrong, but without a Ron Artest "foul" *none* of this happens.


You're forgetting something, without a push from Ben NONE of this happens either.


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## BG7

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> The game is already decided why foul a guy in the back. Why? It was totally unnecessary. Yes Ben was wrong, but without a Ron Artest "foul" *none* of this happens.


Ron Artest fouled which is part of the game. Ben Wallace started a player fight by hitting Artest in the throat after the play, that is not part of basketball. A fan started a huge brawl by throwing a beer at his face, that is not part of the game. Artest did nothing wrong, if anything Artest and the Pacers should gain respect points for them standing up to those **** piston fans that think they tough.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>SacTown16</b>!
> 
> 
> You're forgetting something, without a push from Ben NONE of this happens either.


Let's see... which event happened first? Without Ron committing an unnecessary foul does any of this happen?


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## Midnight_Marauder

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest shouldn't take any blame?


No he should.......but I think he was honestly trying to stay out of it with Wallace....I know if someone throws beer on me......I would of did more than that.....I will admit though......the look on Artest's face was scary


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## Midnight_Marauder

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Let's see... which event happened first? Without Ron committing an unnecessary foul does any of this happen?


That was not that bad of a foul....Wallace is still moody from his brother dying.....


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Let's see... which event happened first? Without Ron committing an unnecessary foul does any of this happen?


You'd think an NBA player would be able to take a light foul wouldn't you?


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## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest shouldn't take any blame?


of course he should. He snapped. But Big Ben started the fight and Artest didnt even throw one punch at him. The fans hit him, and he just lost it. The fans and big ben made a big situation over a foul, part of the game


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## SacTown16

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Let's see... which event happened first? Without Ron committing an unnecessary foul does any of this happen?


No, but that's besides the point, without the retaliation, none of this occurs, in terms of the fans getting involved.


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## PacersguyUSA

I'm definately going to try to go to the Dec. 25 game now, shout some stuff at Wallace etc. I wanna be a part of everyone pissing off the Pistons.


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## Midnight_Marauder

I really love Detroit......but this is a big ole black eye on the city tonight......people who live outside of the area view us the way we acted tonight.......that fan fit right into the stereotype of Detroit.....very embarressing.....Why in God's name would you throw beer at a player....let alone one like Artest who has a history


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## PacersguyUSA

I woulda loved to see Artest maul the hell of Wallace like a ravaged dog, but he had restraint against Wallace, which is impressive.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> 
> 
> That was not that bad of a foul....Wallace is still moody from his brother dying.....


C'mon man you know better than that reise... You or I don't know if that had anything to do with his brother, nor is it "classy" for you to bring that up. 

Ron Artest committed an unnecessary foul period. And please stop with this regular foul thing.


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## SacTown16

S Jax is gonna be gone for a WHILE, he didn't even receive any drinks in the face and he went all out whaling his fists in the stands, the dude is gone.


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## Midnight_Marauder

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> C'mon man you know better than that reise...


I know I was still upset and I was trying to get a cheap shot in at Wallace.....Hopefully this isnt going to be a repeat when the game goes to Conseco....or when they play again here.....very sad sight


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> Matchups going into Friday Night's game:
> 
> PG: Billups vs. Tinsley
> 
> A lot of Pacers' fans like to argue that Tinsley is one of the better point guards/pure point guards in the league, but right now Billups is just the better player. Billups needs to play a lot better than he did against the Pacers in the regular season series last year if we are to have a chance to win. Neither will be able to overpower each other like they do other point guards who are smaller than them. Advantage: Pistons[/QUOTE
> 
> Tinsley: 13 Points, 8 assists, 8 steals, 50%, 60%
> 
> Billups: 13 points, 5 assists, 5 rebounds, 30%, 0%


Good game, very enjoyable. Jackson should have stayed out of the fight, that was a bit unecessary, but he had a very good hit on one of the Detroit shmucks. Of course, all of the blame should rest on Ben Wallace's shoulders.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> C'mon man you know better than that reise... You or I don't know if that had anything to do with his brother, nor is it "classy" for you to bring that up.
> 
> Ron Artest committed an unnecessary foul period. And please stop with this regular foul thing.


Why is it unecessary? Ben Wallace was on the way to a clear layup (although with Wallace's percentage from 2ft. in, you could argue that it might not be considered a shoe-in). Of course defensive player of the year, Artest isn't going to let that get in. Indiana news reporter: "Wallace kept comming on after Artest was backing away."


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## DetBNyce

I don't know where the talk of 5 game suspensions, I'm thinking 20 games You can't hit fans period. You just can't. I'd probaly do the same thing, but it's still wrong.

This is not Ben Wallace's fault that the fight escalated to that level. It's the fans fault. Period. Ben Wallace's reactions happens a handful times during the season.


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## PacersguyUSA

I like the interviews of these fans downtown.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Good game, very enjoyable. Jackson should have stayed out of the fight, that was a bit unecessary, but he had a very good hit on one of the Detroit shmucks. Of course, all of the blame should rest on Ben Wallace's shoulders.


Wow, one game stats. Take the season stats and look at 'em. Not impressed at all.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> This is not Ben Wallace's fault that the fight escalated to that level. It's the fans fault. Period. Ben Wallace's reactions happens a handful times during the season.


Yes, it is. Artest was backing away and Wallace was still fighting. Artest was laying down, and Wallace was still fighting. Some Detroit players (the ones not fighting) were trying to keep Wallace away, and Wallace was still fighting. He is just a sore loser.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Why is it unecessary?


You guys were up about 15 with 45 seconds left and Ben is going in for an uncontested layup and gets fouled from behind. Unnecessary. Why foul him? Why? It's no point, it wouldn't have affected the outcome of the game.


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## Midnight_Marauder

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> This is not Ben Wallace's fault that the fight escalated to that level. It's the fans fault. Period.


What is sad is that you cant punish or fine the fans.....what can the league do?....I think the league should ban all alcohol sales in all NBA arenas....

Yeah you are right more than five games are needed....I think Jackson will get more than Artest.....Jackson was unprovoked......The NBA needs to take a stand


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow, one game stats. Take the season stats and look at 'em. Not impressed at all.


Where did I make any inferetions or big picture assumption? I just posted stats. I will say that Tinsley made Billups like an NBDL player today though.

I was gonna post the other players' stats but I got to lazy, and that was the first matchup, and the one most intersting to me.


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## SacTown16

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> You guys were up about 15 with 45 seconds left and Ben is going in for an uncontested layup and gets fouled from behind. Unnecessary. Why foul him? Why? It's no point, it wouldn't have affected the outcome of the game.


Their may have been no point to the foul on Wallace, but fouls are still part of the game, trying to strangle someone isn't.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> You guys were up about 15 with 45 seconds left and Ben is going in for an uncontested layup and gets fouled from behind. Unnecessary. Why foul him? Why? It's no point, it wouldn't have affected the outcome of the game.


There was still 45 secs. If you're going to say that, you have to say that Wallace should have just dribbled it out to the shot clock.


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## froggyvk

New definition of irony:

Next Pistons/Pacers game-Christmas Day.

I am a Pistons fan. HOWEVER - I was not drinking beer. I wasn't the one doing the punching. I'm not classless. At least, I don't think I am.

I'm ashamed.

The Pistons had "the greatest fans in all of basketball" (as quoted by many TV broadcasts, newspapers, magazines, etc.), and they completely **** up. Totally classless. What the hell were they thinking?

The thing that started this whole thing was a complete overreaction by Ben Wallace. It wasn't even a very hard foul, you idiot.

I'm boycotting the Pistons until further notice.



> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> Can the league impose any restrictions on Detoit's fans? Worst.fans.ever.





> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> I'm definately going to try to go to the Dec. 25 game now, shout some stuff at Wallace etc. I wanna be a part of everyone pissing off the Pistons.


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## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> John Saunders is dispicable.


What did he do or say?


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## PacersguyUSA

Alright, I'm calmed down now, and out of the fighting mood, now just worrying about future suspensions.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>SacTown16</b>!
> 
> 
> Their may have been no point to the foul on Wallace, but fouls are still part of the game, trying to strangle someone isn't.


Lies, lies, lies... Don't make things up. I saw it with my own two eyes, at no point and time did Ben try to strangle Ron.


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## rainman

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> John Saunders is dispicable.



i agree, he lost a lot of respect as far as i'm concerned. bottom line is you dont go in the stands, period.


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## Midnight_Marauder

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Lies, lies, lies... Don't make things up. I saw it with my own two eyes, at no point and time did Ben try to strangle Ron.


Actually DetBNyce....after he pushed Artest he did go for his throat


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> There was still 45 secs. If you're going to say that, you have to say that Wallace should have just dribbled it out to the shot clock.


Who in the NBA does that? The team that's up dribbles out the clock, not the team that's down. Even you should know that.


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## SacTown16

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Lies, lies, lies... Don't make things up. I saw it with my own two eyes, at no point and time did Ben try to strangle Ron.


Punch, push to the throat, same difference, enough with the abnegation DetBNyce.


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## ian

I can't believe people are blaming this on the Pistons. Here, a post I made on a different board.



> Artest fouled too hard
> Ben retaliated too hard
> 
> Should have stopped right there, except Artest went psycho because some beer got on him.
> You don't attack fans because you had a plastic beer cup hit you, especially when it's the wrong guy!
> 
> Then Stephen Jackson decides he's a hard *** and punches another fan for throwing beer,
> Those fans definitely acted wrong but ultimately the players can't go into the stands over **** like that.


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## Midnight_Marauder

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Who in the NBA does that? The team that's up dribbles out the clock, not the team that's down. Even you should know that.


Yes I know you cant do that.....but an altercation on the court shouldnt lead to a riot in the Palace...When Barkley and Laimbeer or Bird and Laimbeer used to fight was their riots? What is sad is that this was a good game up until that point


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually DetBNyce....after he pushed Artest he did go for his throat


In the heat of the battle, do you really think he really tried to aim to push him in the throat? Ben was wrong, but without Ron fouling Ben unnecessarily, none of this happens. None.

All Ben did was try to fight Ron, it happens all the time in the league.

Jackson will get supsended the most with Artest coming in second. Count on it.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Who in the NBA does that? The team that's up dribbles out the clock, not the team that's down. Even you should know that.


But you have to say it, if you're going to say that Artest should led Wallace get an easy bucket.


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## PacersguyUSA

delete post


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> In the heat of the battle, do you really think he really tried to aim to push him in the throat? Ben was wrong, but without Ron fouling Ben unnecessarily, none of this happens. None.
> 
> All Ben did was try to fight Ron, it happens all the time in the league.
> 
> Jackson will get supsended the most with Artest coming in second. Count on it.


Earlier in the game, a Piston pushed a Pacer (might have been Gill) in basically the same way. Did the Pacer then go for the death grip on the Piston? No, and that shows the difference in level of class between the Pacers and Pistons. Remember Corliss Williamson starting a fight with Jermaine O'neal by throwing a ball at him? Yeah. Remember Hamilton hitting Artest in the balls? Yeah.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes I know you cant do that.....but an altercation on the court shouldnt lead to a riot in the Palace...When Barkley and Laimbeer or Bird and Laimbeer used to fight was their riots? What is sad is that this was a good game up until that point


I agree, I've already said it was the fans fault that it got to that level. Not Ben, Not Ron -- the fans. There are fights all the time, but the fans went too far.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> But you have to say it, if you're going to say that Artest should led Wallace get an easy bucket.


I reall don't know what you are talking about and no I won't say a team that is losing should dribble out the clock when there is more than 24 seconds on the shot clock.


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## Midnight_Marauder

Well I am going offline......I just wanted to say that this is a bad situation all around.....no one was in the right at all....very sad day for sports overall....why has it come to this?......this happens way too often....

Gonna give a shout out to DetBnyce, Pacers Fan, Pacersguy, Jvanbusk, Froggy and all the Pistons and Pacers fans.....thank god we didnt have a back and forth posting war on here.....:laugh: .....I did see Detbnyce reaching for a bottle or water though....:laugh:


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## ian

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Earlier in the game, a Piston pushed a Pacer (might have been Gill) in basically the same way. Did the Pacer then go for the death grip on the Piston? No, and that shows the difference in level of class between the Pacers and Pistons. Remember Corliss Williamson starting a fight with Jermaine O'neal by throwing a ball at him? Yeah. Remember Hamilton hitting Artest in the balls? Yeah.


Artest flagrantly fouled Ben with his team up 15 and 45 seconds left. 

He didn't even go for the ball.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Earlier in the game, a Piston pushed a Pacer (might have been Gill) in basically the same way. Did the Pacer then go for the death grip on the Piston? No, and that shows the difference in level of class between the Pacers and Pistons. Remember Corliss Williamson starting a fight with Jermaine O'neal by throwing a ball at him? Yeah. Remember Hamilton hitting Artest in the balls? Yeah.


Stephen Jackson...


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> I did see Detbnyce reaching for a bottle or water though....:laugh:


LOL

It's all good man. I'm not mad at all. Have a good one...


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>ian</b>!
> He didn't even go for the ball.


At all. With the bad blood betwen the teams he didn't go for the ball at all. With 45 seconds left.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>ian</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest flagrantly fouled Ben with his team up 15 and 45 seconds left.
> 
> He didn't even go for the ball.


It was called a flagrant? Looked like a light push to me, and I was under the impression that it was only a personal foul.


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## nickrock23

wallace's fault... feel bad for artest


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## YearofDaBulls

anybody have the full clip of the fight?


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## jimo2305

the clips on espn.. espn motion.. 

my friend called me and told me to watch it on there.. oh ya.. i was shocked at what i saw.. in the nba??? sure nobody is right in this situation.. but ooh i wish artest knocked the crap out of that chubby piston fan who confronted him.. i know i would've knocked him out. Anyway.. nba will rebound from this embarassment... christmas day will be a day for nba.. 

pistons vs pacers meet again

shaq vs kobe.. whoo whee


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>jimo2305</b>!
> the clips on espn.. espn motion..
> 
> my friend called me and told me to watch it on there.. oh ya.. i was shocked at what i saw.. in the nba??? sure nobody is right in this situation.. but ooh i wish artest knocked the crap out of that chubby piston fan who confronted him.. i know i would've knocked him out. Anyway.. nba will rebound from this embarassment... christmas day will be a day for nba..
> 
> pistons vs pacers meet again
> 
> shaq vs kobe.. whoo whee


It's funny because the fat guy tried to fight back.


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## jvanbusk

Biggest ***** action of all-time?

Jamaal Tinsley toting a dustpan. What a tool.


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## Priest

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> This situation is going to be tough. 5 or 6 Pacers were throwing punches at fans.
> 
> Yes, the fans acted real classless. But, you just don't attack fans. Ben Wallace initially started the fight on the floor. Ron Artest is the thug that started the melee in the bench.


What!!!! the fan started that mess for throwing beer at artest


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## Midnight_Marauder

Well I have had a night to sleep on this and now that I am back up.......It is a sad day for sports....this never should of happened......


But I just saw it again....I couldnt stop laughin......so many people's eyes bugged out.....The Pacers reminded me of a Terminator movie.....just mowing down people.....then when Tinsley got that dustpan :laugh: ....The "I cant believe that" award for me goes to Rasheed Wallace........I like that dude more than ever....At one point you see him and Reggie Miller discussing how the hell to put an end to this....it was good to see two veterans understand exactly what was going on


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## Brian.

I only saw the first half of the game or so before I turned it off because of how bad the pistons were playing. My thoughts on the debacle are. The artest foul was pretty cheap. Ben shouldn't have pushed him although it was great how Artest didn't want anything to do with Wallace after Ben came after him. I seriously doubt Artest will cheap shot Ben ever again. As for the fan portion of it. I have no problem with Artest attacking the fans on the court. Fans should stay off the court cause in that case the player is defending himself. Going into the stands to fight fans is pretty classless though.


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## jvanbusk

Brian,

What do you think of Jermaine O'Neal's actions? Personally I think they might have been the most dispicable.

Yes, the fan was on the court. But, O'Neal went out of his way to run across the court and cheap shot the fan who was on his knees not threatening anybody at the time. I think he could be facing a lawsuit, as I believe the guy who he punched was knocked out and taken to the hospital.

Jermaine O'Neal was not acting out of self-defense, he was acting out of ruthless aggression. And that was really scary. Right now, I don't know who's in bigger need of psychiatric help between him and Artest.


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## MiamiHeat03

Self Defense??
what from cups and chairs like that is going to kill you but that punched by Artest and JO are uncalled for, that is very dangerous.


It is Artest fault as much as it is for Detroit fans who participated.

I am though expecting a big lawsuit agains JO.


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## rainman

lawsuits dont faze these guys they just settle out of court for a few bucks. what's really going to sink is what the bottom line to the pacers team is. this is in all probability going to cost them a shot at an nba title this year. i wonder how they feel then about overreacting to some guy throwing a cup at them.


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## D.Spartan

> Originally posted by <b>rainman</b>!
> lawsuits dont faze these guys they just settle out of court for a few bucks. what's really going to sink is what the bottom line to the pacers team is. this is in all probability going to cost them a shot at an nba title this year. i wonder how they feel then about overreacting to some guy throwing a cup at them.


I was thinking the same thing about throwing the cup.
I was a bartender for a few years back in college & I saw drinks getting thrown in guys faces almost every night. It was always by girls, but that’s not the point. Artest attacking some guy half his size is the same thing as someone punching a girl that throws a drink in someone’s face. If that happened they would be in jail for sure. 

Does anyone remember a football game a few years ago (I think in Cleveland) where the other team (or maybe the refs) where pelted with hundreds of beer bottles. Isn't that much worse?? Am I wrong to think that idiot fans throw stuff at players fairly frequently? It seems that most players will point out the idiot fan out to security & get them thrown out or arrested. I saw Joe Dumars do that in Boston back in the late 80'S. This is why Joe D. says that Artest overreacted. I can believe that Legler tore up Joe like he did. Legs said he would have done the same thing, He is full of it. Artest was pulling a Rodman move by lying on the scorers table like he was. This could have been avoided if Ben would have thrown a punch, just one punch, Instead of Artest in the stands he would be in the hospital.

WOW am I venting.
Don't get me wrong, the fan that threw the cup is a piece of crap & anyone on the court probably had it coming. Especially the fool who was taking cheap shots on Fred Jones. Jones was the only innocent victim that I saw.

Anyone see Mahorn in the middle of it?


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## Brian.

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Brian,
> 
> What do you think of Jermaine O'Neal's actions? Personally I think they might have been the most dispicable.
> 
> Yes, the fan was on the court. But, O'Neal went out of his way to run across the court and cheap shot the fan who was on his knees not threatening anybody at the time. I think he could be facing a lawsuit, as I believe the guy who he punched was knocked out and taken to the hospital.
> 
> Jermaine O'Neal was not acting out of self-defense, he was acting out of ruthless aggression. And that was really scary. Right now, I don't know who's in bigger need of psychiatric help between him and Artest.


I understand what you are saying and I don't think O'neal should have punched him. Honestly though I really have no sympathy for anybody that goes on the court though. There isn't one good reason for that fan being on that court and if a fan goes on the court he IMO deserves what he gets. 

I feel the same way about players going in the stands. Had artest gone up there and a few guys jumped him and put him in a coma I wouldn't have any sympathy for artest.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>rainman</b>!
> lawsuits dont faze these guys they just settle out of court for a few bucks. what's really going to sink is what the bottom line to the pacers team is. this is in all probability going to cost them a shot at an nba title this year. i wonder how they feel then about overreacting to some guy throwing a cup at them.


Why would it cost us the title. We'll obviously make the playoffs, and we were able to man handle the Pistons pretty easily, and I don't expect anyone else in the east to present a challenge.


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## jimo2305

i dont know if you play basketball.. but ok.. 

was artest's foul really that hard?? ive seen players walk away from harder fouls.. that is no freakin' way a flagrant foul.. now wallace did overreact but im not blamin' him for overreacting.. it's been somewhat a dirty game.. some fouls and dirty plays were bein' overlooked.. 

i dunno if any of u ever play basketball.. but.. realize these players are human beings.. if you're playing ball.. you foul a guy.. the guy pushes you arguments break out.. you seperate yourself away from the fight.. then someone throws a full cup of beer on you.. 

would you really look for a security guard and point out the guy who did it? infact.. if anybody threw a full cup of beer at you.. dont tell me you dont wanna clean the guy's clock.. we're not talking about girls at bars here.. this is some spoiled brat a-hole who wanted to instigate some ish that was gonna end anyway.. 

it's nonsense.. the fans deserved their beatings.. thats how i feel about it :yes:


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## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>jimo2305</b>!
> i dont know if you play basketball.. but ok..
> 
> was artest's foul really that hard?? ive seen players walk away from harder fouls.. that is no freakin' way a flagrant foul.. now wallace did overreact but im not blamin' him for overreacting.. it's been somewhat a dirty game.. some fouls and dirty plays were bein' overlooked..
> 
> i dunno if any of u ever play basketball.. but.. realize these players are human beings.. if you're playing ball.. you foul a guy.. the guy pushes you arguments break out.. you seperate yourself away from the fight.. then someone throws a full cup of beer on you..
> 
> would you really look for a security guard and point out the guy who did it? infact.. if anybody threw a full cup of beer at you.. dont tell me you dont wanna clean the guy's clock.. we're not talking about girls at bars here.. this is some spoiled brat a-hole who wanted to instigate some ish that was gonna end anyway..
> 
> it's nonsense.. the fans deserved their beatings.. thats how i feel about it :yes:


The reason it's so ridiculous is athletes have been doused with beer before. It happens quite often, and yet normally it doesn't incite a riot. 

I recall for one example Robert Fick being doused with beer in the Chicago White Sox bullpen. He was mad, but he didn't charge into the stands and start brawling with the crowd.


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