# How long before Shaun Livingston is labeled a bust?



## clips_r_teh_wieners (Nov 4, 2005)

there has to be a point where reality sets in, and in this case, that reality is livingston might not live up to the hype and potential that everyone once expected. but, the question is, if he continues to play this way with no showing of improvement, how long until he is officially a bust?

time is running out, excuses are running out, i would give him end of december.


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## 9diamonds (Apr 12, 2006)

He played absolutly horrible yesterday,Ill give him until end of december


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## NOBLE (Apr 10, 2005)

I'm not ready to give up on him BUT I'd definitely be concerned if he played like this the entire season.


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

NOBLE said:


> I'm not ready to give up on him BUT I'd definitely be concerned if he played like this the entire season.


yup...


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

I hope he plays horrible, signs a mediocre and small contract extension, then he breaks loose. :biggrin: 

Kind of like Corey's Extension.


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## universal! (Mar 5, 2006)

The problem is, where do we set the bar for Livingston?
I'd be happy to the extent of 10ppg, 7assists, 5rebounds, a few blocks/steals a game... I wouldn't consider him a bust if he never becomes a dominant player .
On the other hand, Livingston's showing himself as a great defender already.

Free Arsenal makes a good point: if Livingston's progress continues slowly, it makes it easier for the Clips to keep him and wait for him to develop.


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## Roscoe_Clipps (Nov 11, 2005)

I blame Dunleavy for having an offensive consisting entirely of Isos and post-ups. How the hell is a play-maker, a creator, like Livingston expected to racked up Dimes if all our points come off of isolations?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

He's always going to be a fairly valuable player so long as he continues to play as well defensively and he can do a reasonable job at the point.

I honestly don't know about the Clippers,but if he becomes a UFA someone is going to take a chance on him with a reasonably big deal.He's still young and he's got a lot of potential.More than that it's difficult to find even a competent NBA point guard.Since so many teams need PG's someone will roll the dice on Shaun.


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

Roscoe_Clipps said:


> I blame Dunleavy for having an offensive consisting entirely of Isos and post-ups. How the hell is a play-maker, a creator, like Livingston expected to racked up Dimes if all our points come off of isolations?


You're exactly right. Dunleavy's offensive system is awful for someone like Livingston. He is the type of PG that needs to run and push the tempo because with his passing ability he would excel. I thing right now if he played with a team like Denver, he would be doing things that us Clipper fans expected from him. With TT, Corey and Livy coming off the bench, I was expecting the Clippers' 2nd unit to run more but Dunleavy doesn't even try to push the tempo when Livy comes into the game.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

i already think he is a bust...but i chose to give him to the end of the season....if he continues playing like he is, then there will be no doubt...


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

ElMarroAfamado said:


> i already think he is a bust...but i chose to give him to the end of the season....if he continues playing like he is, then there will be no doubt...


I disagree, I think he's a bust in Dunleavy's system, but he'd be great in another system. I mean take that philly game for example... Dunleavy called set plays.

EVERY FREAKIN' time down the court Livvy would take the ball down, then pass it to EB or Corey, who would then drive to the hoop or pass it off. Livingston did make good plays however, when he got to do the driving and passing, like his pass to EB.

If Nash were in our system, he'd be almost the exact same thing when it comes to making plays, with the only exception which is that he can easily hit the open 3.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

Trade him to Denver for some front-courtness?


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## clips_r_teh_wieners (Nov 4, 2005)

XMATTHEWX said:


> Trade him to Denver for some front-courtness?


i was thinking a high 2007 draft pick


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

How the tables have turned, eh. Last offseason, when I posted let's trade Livingston while his stock value was HIGH as hell, people thought it was a stupid idea and thought, but now, everyone wants Livingston out, which will leave Daniel Ewing as our backup PG. Unless we can deal him and get a PG prospect in return, or nothing. Livingstons stock is low, so why deal him now? He WILL improve. In fact, in a way, I am glad he is playing how he is for the fact with his extension coming up, maybe Dunleavy can pursue him to take a lower amount as he is not playing that good with huge incentives.


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## universal! (Mar 5, 2006)

Too early for a trade, and too early to call him a bust. If it weren't for his horrible FG% (mostly this season so far), his numbers aren't too bad. Not starter material yet, but not bad as a backup. Livingston plays great defense too.

He's only played in 99games according to the info on nba.com. Not sure if they counted playoffs.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

qross1fan said:


> How the tables have turned, eh. Last offseason, when I posted let's trade Livingston while his stock value was HIGH as hell, people thought it was a stupid idea and thought, but now, everyone wants Livingston out, which will leave Daniel Ewing as our backup PG. Unless we can deal him and get a PG prospect in return, or nothing. Livingstons stock is low, so why deal him now? He WILL improve. In fact, in a way, I am glad he is playing how he is for the fact with his extension coming up, maybe Dunleavy can pursue him to take a lower amount as he is not playing that good with huge incentives.


yeah, to think ...people said no to the idea of getting Iverson for Livingston :laugh: 
so eh, although i want Livingston to do good since he will probably be our pg for a couple years, ive never once "stood up" for Livingston....i bad mouthed him for a reason..and well i guess now all you or seeing what ive seen since last ******* year eh i feel vindicated all those times people "bashed" on me for bashing on Livingston eh...sorry but i think i was right...and when i said Ewing would be a better PG, people laughed....i guess as bad as some of you may think Daniel is...Livingston is not much better....(stop using his damn height to defend him) :curse: :curse:


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

once again, its scary to think whats gonna happen when Sam retires, im optimistic though, becuz it seems Corey is playing much like he did a couple years ago when Elton and him were like a great scoring tandem but no one noticed cuz the Clippers were well... The Clippers....but if Corey keeps this up and Elton plays like we know he can the rest of our guys can play mediocre and i still think we have a very very solid team even after Sam leaves :biggrin: 

GO CLIPPERS!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

I've always been up for trading Livingston for a player that will allow the Clippers to win now. Get the trade offers back on the line, Pierce/Iverson for Maggette & Livingston sounds like a plan to me. 

I could care less about being a playoff contender for years to come, i'd be happy with one championship, even if it all falls apart after a year or two.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

Shaun Livingston is not going to be a bust, me and Shuan play very similar, and I know that he needs to 
be in a certian comfort level, and thats takes time. Another thing that might be the problem is the team maybe this just isn't the team for him, I say trade him to the Hawks for Childress, that dal seems pretty fair to me.


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## cadarn (Feb 1, 2006)

leidout said:


> I've always been up for trading Livingston for a player that will allow the Clippers to win now. Get the trade offers back on the line, Pierce/Iverson for Maggette & Livingston sounds like a plan to me.
> 
> I could care less about being a playoff contender for years to come, i'd be happy with one championship, even if it all falls apart after a year or two.


yeah, people are saying give him 3-4 years. By that time our veterans are really gonna be veterans, if you get my meaning.


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## El chido (Dec 21, 2005)

In the sixers game I notice that Shaun is not being used properly.
I believe that even when his shot is not falling Dun needs to use him along with EB or TT on the pick and roll or pick and pop. There were two plays in the last game where they did the pick and roll with a big man and in one livi got a wide open layup where he was able to use his speed to get to the basket, on the other play the defence picked up shaun and shaun had to look for the pass where he found EB wide open for a layup. Basically all this low production is Dun faults because of the bad play calling. So please look at the games and you will notice that it is not all livi's fault.

Go Clippers Go

Go Livi Go


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

El chido said:


> In the sixers game I notice that Shaun is not being used properly.
> I believe that even when his shot is not falling Dun needs to use him along with EB or TT on the pick and roll or pick and pop. There were two plays in the last game where they did the pick and roll with a big man and in one livi got a wide open layup where he was able to use his speed to get to the basket, on the other play the defence picked up shaun and shaun had to look for the pass where he found EB wide open for a layup. Basically all this low production is Dun faults because of the bad play calling. So please look at the games and you will notice that it is not all livi's fault.
> 
> Go Clippers Go
> ...


yup...


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## Vaught from his Spot (Nov 8, 2006)

universal! said:


> Too early for a trade, and too early to call him a bust. If it weren't for his horrible FG% (mostly this season so far), his numbers aren't too bad. Not starter material yet, but not bad as a backup. Livingston plays great defense too.
> 
> He's only played in 99games according to the info on nba.com. Not sure if they counted playoffs.


I'm glad to see there are a few Clipper fans who aren't overly hasty. 8 games does not a bust make, whether in reference to Livingston, Kaman, or our overall play this season.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

Vaught from his Spot said:


> I'm glad to see there are a few Clipper fans who aren't overly hasty. 8 games does not a bust make, whether in reference to Livingston, Kaman, or our overall play this season.



repped...


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

clipperblog.com said:


> I'm sure the Clips can bring Rick Brunson back for all of these people who are so worried about Livingston and his difficulties as a backup PG.
> 
> Livingston will be fine. If he was the starter and Cassell, Ewing, Brunson or whoever was getting 10-15 minutes a night, Liv would be putting up preseason numbers give or take a few on-the-job missed shots and turnovers.
> 
> ...


just some random clipper fan's thoughts on the exact same subject...thoughts?


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## Futurama_Fanatic (Jul 21, 2005)

ill start to consider him a bust from the allstar break to the end of the season if he doesnt improve.


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

bootstrenf said:


> just some random clipper fan's thoughts on the exact same subject...thoughts?


Thanks for sharing ... funny how those at other sites have a broader vision and independent thought ... so unlike many of the few that post here who 'tow the line', afraid to think for themselves.


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## clips_r_teh_wieners (Nov 4, 2005)

Vaught from his Spot said:


> I'm glad to see there are a few Clipper fans who aren't overly hasty. 8 games does not a bust make, whether in reference to Livingston, Kaman, or our overall play this season.


um that's why i put up so many other options or deadlines of when to consider it.


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## universal! (Mar 5, 2006)

Year G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG TO PPG 
06-07 8 1 26.6 .340 1.000 .737 2.8 4.5 0.8 1.1 2.50 6.5 
Career 99 30 25.8 .415 .250 .716 3.0 4.6 0.8 0.5 2.08 6.3 

Livingston's numbers. Overall not too bad for a young inexperienced player, especially a back up. Only the FG% this year is horrible, though career wise- not great, but not too bad.


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## Vaught from his Spot (Nov 8, 2006)

clips_r_teh_wieners said:


> um that's why i put up so many other options or deadlines of when to consider it.


So? That has nothing to do with my point. A sizeable group of Clipper fans are already writing off Shaun and Chris as busts right now. There is no reason to pass judgement on these guys so quickly. I'm not happy with their slow starts, as I'm sure any Clipper fan is. However, these guys are young, and in the case of Shaun Livingston, largely inexperienced. There shouldn't be any discussion yet.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

Kaman is not a bust....maybe if he doesnt improve to atleast average 15+ a season then he might be considered "overpayed" but eh not a bust...as far as Livingston...i think he is a bust...but i will wait till the end of the season to really lose all Hope completely ....


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## clips_r_teh_wieners (Nov 4, 2005)

Vaught from his Spot said:


> So? That has nothing to do with my point. A sizeable group of Clipper fans are already writing off Shaun and Chris as busts right now. There is no reason to pass judgement on these guys so quickly. I'm not happy with their slow starts, as I'm sure any Clipper fan is. However, these guys are young, and in the case of Shaun Livingston, largely inexperienced. There shouldn't be any discussion yet.


havent u used this excuse for 3 straight years now? this thread is questioning when the "young inexperienced" card will expire, which i woudl think, is sometime soon


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## livingstononefour (Jun 19, 2006)

Shaun Livingston will never be a bust. He will leave the league under his own terms one day whereas a bust is a guy who can't even stay in the league past his rookie contract. His offense might piss you off (he single handedly got us back in the game vs the Lakers last night in the 4th quarter), but he is our second best periemeter defender and being able to be that good at defense will keep him from being a bust. He is starting to build his confidence up and when he does, you people talking bad about him are going to feel pretty foolish.


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## El chido (Dec 21, 2005)

It is always hard to loose to the Lakers. But one thing that I am happy about last nights game was the play of Kaman and Livingston. The stats do not show much, but the way they were playing in the court, and the determination from livingston to score in the 3rd quarter is priceless. You could see some confidence in livi that we have not seen in the whole season. It is like they both just woke up from a comma right in the court. 

Just to give you guys an idea of what I am talking about. There was one play where livi was bringing up the ball and the team was setting up that stupid offense that they have been playing lately where livi gives up the ball and never sees it again, but livi did not go along with the play, you could see him screaming and pointing at TT for a pick so that he could get a pick and roll play going. I saw livi playing a lot better when we play with this offense of the pick and roll or pick and pop, not the post up and outside contested shot.

I hope that this game wakes up the coaches and the players, and that they realise that they need to go bach to last years offense that took us to the playoffs. 

I also hope that this game gave confidence to Kaman and Livi and that they continue to play like this.

I do not worry about Kaman or Livi, The only thing that I worry about is their consistnecy, but I think that it will come with more games into the season.


Go Clippers Go

Go Livingston Go


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

Livingston had a brief stint of good play...but if he is gonna get his cofidence back...especially with shooting he should shoot more...unless they dont go down...but like yesterday in the 4th he gave the ball to Tim thomas and he was posted and Tim Thomas gave it right back to Livingston AND HE WAS OPEN BRIEFLY and could have just launched the 3 right after getting the pass from Thomas..but HE DIDNT....its times like that when he should just shoot it....he had the space....
and well it seemed Kaman played better...but i dont think he is still playing like he did during a span last year where at times he seemed unguardable....he probably gave the impression yesterday that he got better CUZ THEY WENT TO HIM SO OFTEN...but he can do better...we will see..


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

I think you have to give him until the end of the year. He is a great defender and that is worth something right there. Becuae of it, I dont think he will ever be a "bust", just not as good as people's hopes.

People used to compare him to Magic, and that is just ridiculous, he will never be that good. He needs to develope consistency. It looks like it just hasnt "clicked" for him yet. Maybe that day will never come, maybe he just needs more time or a better coach or a new system.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

elcap15 said:


> I think you have to give him until the end of the year. He is a great defender and that is worth something right there. Becuae of it, I dont think he will ever be a "bust", just not as good as people's hopes.
> 
> People used to compare him to Magic, and that is just ridiculous, he will never be that good. He needs to develope consistency. It looks like it just hasnt "clicked" for him yet. Maybe that day will never come, maybe he just needs more time or a better coach or a new system.


I disagree, he has the "physical tools" to be as good as Magic. Just not the mentality, so unless we can kidnap him and brain wash him... or something... :biggrin:


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## universal! (Mar 5, 2006)

elcap15 said:


> I think you have to give him until the end of the year. He is a great defender and that is worth something right there. Becuae of it, I dont think he will ever be a "bust", just not as good as people's hopes.
> 
> People used to compare him to Magic, and that is just ridiculous, he will never be that good. He needs to develope consistency. It looks like it just hasnt "clicked" for him yet. Maybe that day will never come, maybe he just needs more time or a better coach or a new system.


I don't think anyone seriously compared him to Magic.... they have said however, the ceiling for Livingston could be Magic (notice the many uncertainties). Magic is arguably one of the top three players of all time. those are some rather large shoes to fill...

The Penny comparisons are more frequent, but just as ridiculous.

Livingston needs some confidence, some competativeness, some fire, some cajones as they say. He needs to play like he feels no one can stop him from dominating. I believe he has mentioned before on D, that he can shut down any player (I think he was talking about Kobe). He needs to feel that on the other end too.


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