# Steve Nash- worst MVP pick ever



## Delontes Herpes

i know you guys probably already talked about nash's MVP but he's gotta be the worst MVP pick ever. name one other MVP who

1) was the 3rd best player on his own team
2) wasn't a hall of famer


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## Omniscient Eyes

Delontes Herpes said:


> i know you guys probably already talked about nash's MVP but he's gotta be the worst MVP pick ever. name one other MVP who
> 
> 1) was the 3rd best player on his own team
> 2) wasn't a hall of famer


This year he played great, but in terms of their whole career, you could definitely argue a guy like Marion was better, but not Amare imo, as Nash has been doing his thing for significanly longer and just as well (if not better) as Amare has since he's "broken out." For THIS yr I definitely think he was the Suns best player, as the level of a PG he is, and a "pure" one at that, he was extremely vital to their success, especially with all the talent around, without him in the lineup the difference is quite noticeable, as they have so much more trouble getting Amare going as well as getting guys like JJ, JJ 2, Marion, and Q solid three pt looks. The all but fact that Nash isn't quite a HOF calibur guy doesn't matter, as the MVP yr isn't a lifetime achievement award, it's a year to year thing, I mean, if he played like this every yr, he would definitely be a HOF.


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## Delontes Herpes

what i was saying is that nash is the 3rd best player on his team this year.

and he has pretty much played this well his whole career. this year he just had an amazing supporting cast

he doesn't even deserve to be considered for the HoF (seriously, he's going to be the first MVP to miss the HoF. there is a reason for this- because he didn't deserve it) and he didn't deserve to be considered for MVP.

he had a great year and really helped the suns clinch the 1 seed in the west, but there are about 10 guys who i think deserved it more than him.


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## Delontes Herpes

which is the better supporting cast?

finley (64 games)
stackhouse (56 games)
josh howard
jason terry
van horn (29 games)
marquis daniels (60 games)
erick dampier (56 games)

or

marion
amare
Q
johnson
jackson
hunter

it's not even close...nash's supporting cast is about 15 games better than dirk's...and phoenix only won 4 more games than dallas.


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## Sedd

You are a week late with your argument. Get over it.


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## Delontes Herpes

yeah, yeah i know i'm new to these boards.

i just can't get over how f'in ridiculous it is that f'in steve nash won the MVP.


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## Delontes Herpes

for the hell of it, the most accurate MVP predictor of all time says nash jobbed 9 people!

MVP Monitor/Predictor - since the award has been given out (this is the 50th year), whoever has finished 1st on the Monitor has won the award 33 times, 2nd place has won it 10 times, 3rd place has won it 4 times, 8th place once, 12th place once and now 10th place (Nash)

simply put, it's the pct of your teams things that you have done * team wins

44.5 DAL Dirk Nowitzki
42.4 MIN Kevin Garnett
39.9 PHO Shawn Marion
39.3 PHO Amare Stoudemire
37.2 CLE LeBron James
36.6 SA Tim Duncan
36.6 HOU Tracy McGrady
35.9 MIA Dwyane Wade
35.2 MIA Shaquille O'Neal
32.3 PHO Steve Nash
31.8 PHI Allen Iverson
31.2 SEA Ray Allen
29.5 WAS Gilbert Arenas
29.4 HOU Ming Yao
28.9 BOS Paul Pierce


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## Tersk

Thats interesting..do you have a link?


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## Delontes Herpes

some guy posted it in another forum

http://www.whatifsports.com/forums/threads.asp?ForumID=7&TopicID=57609&PagePosition=1&ThreadPage=2


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## sunsaz

Delontes Herpes said:


> i know you guys probably already talked about nash's MVP but he's gotta be the worst MVP pick ever. name one other MVP who
> 
> 1) was the 3rd best player on his own team
> 2) wasn't a hall of famer


I assume that it was strategic to make this conclusion of yours on the Suns' board as opposed to the general NBA board?

We will win this series.


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## Delontes Herpes

maybe i'll check out general NBA.

and i agree, the suns will beat dallas.

i think they'll lose to san antonio though...especially if joe johnson isn't back by then


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## Sedd

Delontes Herpes said:


> for the hell of it, the most accurate MVP predictor of all time says nash jobbed 9 people!
> 
> MVP Monitor/Predictor - since the award has been given out (this is the 50th year), whoever has finished 1st on the Monitor has won the award 33 times, 2nd place has won it 10 times, 3rd place has won it 4 times, 8th place once, 12th place once and now 10th place (Nash)
> 
> simply put, it's the pct of your teams things that you have done * team wins
> 
> 44.5 DAL Dirk Nowitzki
> 42.4 MIN Kevin Garnett
> 39.9 PHO Shawn Marion
> 39.3 PHO Amare Stoudemire
> 37.2 CLE LeBron James
> 36.6 SA Tim Duncan
> 36.6 HOU Tracy McGrady
> 35.9 MIA Dwyane Wade
> 35.2 MIA Shaquille O'Neal
> 32.3 PHO Steve Nash
> 31.8 PHI Allen Iverson
> 31.2 SEA Ray Allen
> 29.5 WAS Gilbert Arenas
> 29.4 HOU Ming Yao
> 28.9 BOS Paul Pierce


That calculation holds little to no weight to me cause that's what it is a calculation. There isn't a equation on exactly how he raised the level of play with his teammates, how he is the leader of the team on the floor and the locker room. That list is points, boards, etc. It doesn't measure the intangibles. I don't like the BCS for the same reason.


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## jibikao

Where is the admin for Suns' board? 

Please either: 

1.) Delete this USELESS thread 

or 

2.) Group it with Nash being the MVP thread


This s a Troll message.


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## Delontes Herpes

Sedd said:


> That calculation holds little to no weight to me cause that's what it is a calculation. There isn't a equation on exactly how he raised the level of play with his teammates, how he is the leader of the team on the floor and the locker room. That list is points, boards, etc. It doesn't measure the intangibles. I don't like the BCS for the same reason.


it also takes into account the 11.5 assists that raised the level of play of his teammates.

it doesn't measure intangibles because intangibles are trivial


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## halfbreed

Your "MVP Predictor" point is moot. Shaq is 9th in that predictor. Would you be calling him the worst MVP pick ever too?

Also, the intangibles are NOT trivial.

Although I dont think Nash should've been the MVP, you are making a bad argument.


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## Jamel Irief

In response to 2)

Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Michael Jordan
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon

None of them are Hall of Famers


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## sunsaz

As far as predictors and statistics go, those are for computers. That's what the IBM Award is for.

We will win this series.


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## Kekai

This is baiting. Going to lock it.


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## RoyWilliams

Jamel Irief said:


> In response to 2)
> 
> Kevin Garnett
> Allen Iverson
> Tim Duncan
> Karl Malone
> Michael Jordan
> David Robinson
> Shaquille O'Neal
> Hakeem Olajuwon
> 
> None of them are Hall of Famers


Im guessing he means future hof, since no one can be a hof and win it.


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## Kekai

Reopened. Go at it guys.


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## jibikao

3 MVP performances... 

I hate Barkley but he really gives Nash the credits. He even compares Nash to MJ and Magic and Bird. He just won't let his team quits. Nash is the engine of Suns. When he goes, everybody goes. 

Oh..did he just got a Triple Double ... tonight? LOL


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## PhatDaddy3100

Hmm, Shaqs team basically wins the 2nd round of the playoffs without him, and Steve Nash throws up two amazing performances in game 4 and 5 of the playoffs, and you say he is not MVP? Shut up.


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## jibikao

I am sorry but Wizard is just not a very good team to begin with. I live in Maryland and I get to watch all their games on TV. 

They basically have two scoring pg and a forward that runs the whole offense. They have the least assists in the league (I think) because all the guards are looking for their shots. 

Heat beating them 4-0 is really not that impressive if you ask me. Yes, it's great to be 4-0 but Mavs ain't no Wizard. In fact, Mavs is the 4th best team in the league and only one game behind Heat. In my opinion, that 58W is more impressive than what Heat got. 

I think heat will lose to Pistons... Pistons will come out from the East.


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## Carbo04

If Nash isn't making you a believer by now, you're too far gone to help.


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## Kekai

BaronMcGrady said:


> If Nash isn't making you a believer by now, you're too far gone to help.


word lol


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## Dissonance

Guys take a look this guys list of PGs from the general section




> Originally Posted by fjkdsi
> 1.Baron Davis
> 2.Gilbert Arenas
> 3.Jason Kidd
> 4.Allen Iverson
> 5.Stephon Marbury
> 6.Steve Francis
> 7.Jason Terry
> 8.Steve Nash
> 9.Jamaal Tinsley
> 10.Mike Bibby




lol, I mean Davis 1? Arenas 2? And Nash 8? LOL. I've seen this guy say how he dislikes but us but geez.. There's no way Francis, Marbury, Terry, Iverson, and those guys aforementioned are better than Nash. Most of them are SGs playing PG. Jason Kidd and that's it. That list is a joke. Nash is a pure PG, he does everything offensively. Those guys do not. I'm sure you could question those other guys defense as well. Which everyone likes to point out for a negative. I know I could get in trouble for this but I bet if Nash was not white everyone would be drooling over how good he was. He's so underrated.


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## G-Force

I have been kinda slammed at work the past couple of days, so this is the first time that I read this thread. At first I thought, "Dang, this guy sure has cajones to come into the Suns forum and start talking like this."

It had the potential to get very nasty, but we all seem to be doing okay. I commend the restraint that has been demonstrated by all. Just remember that this is the Suns Forum, and we defend our turf. Keep the discussion clean and respectful of other posters. And try not to dis Stevie too bad. Check out last night's box score.

:greatjob: 

G-Force


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## #15DENVER#6NUGGETS#23

ok lemme start

steve nash will be a hall of famer

how many people had double digit avg for assist this year? steve nash


steve nash earned it and you know it
just stop being jelous


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## Kekai

#15DENVER#6NUGGETS#23 said:


> ok lemme start
> 
> steve nash will be a hall of famer
> 
> how many people had double digit avg for assist this year? steve nash
> 
> 
> steve nash earned it and you know it
> just stop being jelous


Nash wasn't the only one to average double digit assists. Stockton averaged more than him.


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## PhatDaddy3100

Kekai23 said:


> Nash wasn't the only one to average double digit assists. Stockton averaged more than him.


Hes talking about this year in the NBA.


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## Delontes Herpes

Lotta things to respond to.

First of all, great series by nash thus far, especially last night. Now that was an MVP performance. However, he far exceeded his season averages and one great game doesn't make an MVP. After all, Tony Delk has dropped 50 points twice in his career.

Also, that list of PGs that someone found in GD is retarded. Aside from a blatant anti-Nash bias, the rest of the list is way off as well. Bibby 10th? Chauncey not even top 10? Nash 8th is flat out ridiculous though, he's the best PG in the league right now.

Did Barkley really compare Nash to MJ, Larry, and Magic? If he did he should be shot, Nash doesn't touch their territory.

Anyway, my main beef with Nash winning MVP is that it's such a slap in the face to all of the great PG's before him who never won...Tiny Archibald, John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, and even Jason Kidd. I just don't see how you can say that these guys aren't good enough to win it, but Nash is.


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## jibikao

I think Stockton and Nash are two totally different PGs. Yes, both are "pure" PGs but if you've been a fan of Utah (I was!!) you will notice a big difference. 

Stockton plays in a VERY structured offense. Everything they run has a set play which involves not just Malone/Stockton, Horneset too. Stockton has very precise pass but he is no way a fast breaker like Nash. Nash also penetrates a bit better than Stockton and he can finish with his left just as well as his right. 


Not saying who is better but I just want to point out that Nash and Stockton's PG games are actually quite different. 

Suns' offense generates purly from Nash's creation. We have very little set plays because Nash is the floor general. 

Utah is a very structured team. Slogan won't let his players loss like that. In fact, if a center got a rebound and got stolen from a guard, he would get benched!!! I remember Ostag got benched so many times because of that. LOL


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## Delontes Herpes

#15DENVER#6NUGGETS#23 said:


> ok lemme start
> 
> steve nash will be a hall of famer
> 
> how many people had double digit avg for assist this year? steve nash
> 
> 
> steve nash earned it and you know it
> just stop being jelous


Wow, just wow. Have you followed the history of the NBA at all? Wow, I just don't know where to start.

I suppose this puts Brevin Knight on the bubble for the hall of fame. He did finish 2nd with 9 assists/game this year.

Or how about Andre Miller? He was the only one to average double digits in 01-02 when he averaged 10.9. Let's pencil him in for the hall.

What about Kevin Porter? He did it twice when he averaged 10.8 in 77-78 then 13.1 in 78-79. He's surely in the Hall. Oh wait, he isn't? How did that work out?

And the list goes on: Michael Ray Richardson and Guy Rodgers also were the only ones to average double digit assists in a season and they also missed the hall.

So what makes Nash better than these guys? His 12.8 pts/game career scoring average? His career 2.6 rebounds/game? His 0.8 steals/game? His infamously poor defense? He has had a solid career and he has a few good years left. But he's 31 and if you think he has enough left in him to pile up HoF numbers, you just don't know basketball.

EDIT: Also this is the first year that Nash has led the league in assists and just the 2nd year he was even in the top 7.


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## Delontes Herpes

jibikao said:


> I think Stockton and Nash are two totally different PGs. Yes, both are "pure" PGs but if you've been a fan of Utah (I was!!) you will notice a big difference.
> 
> Stockton plays in a VERY structured offense. Everything they run has a set play which involves not just Malone/Stockton, Horneset too. Stockton has very precise pass but he is no way a fast breaker like Nash. Nash also penetrates a bit better than Stockton and he can finish with his left just as well as his right.
> 
> 
> Not saying who is better but I just want to point out that Nash and Stockton's PG games are actually quite different.
> 
> Suns' offense generates purly from Nash's creation. We have very little set plays because Nash is the floor general.
> 
> Utah is a very structured team. Slogan won't let his players loss like that. In fact, if a center got a rebound and got stolen from a guard, he would get benched!!! I remember Ostag got benched so many times because of that. LOL


OK, I see your point...they have different styles...but Stockton has had much better (and more valuable) seasons than Nash did this year. His D was easily better and he averaged more than 11.5 assists/game 8 times. 8 times!

I see why Sun fans would want to defend their MVP...you need to have pride in your team...but i expected at least a few to at least admit that it was a questionable choice. Because it was a VERY questionable MVP choice.


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## Jamel Irief

RoyWilliams said:


> Im guessing he means future hof, since no one can be a hof and win it.


I sure hope that's what he meant.


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## jibikao

Delontes Herpes said:


> OK, I see your point...they have different styles...but Stockton has had much better (and more valuable) seasons than Nash did this year. His D was easily better and he averaged more than 11.5 assists/game 8 times. 8 times!
> 
> I see why Sun fans would want to defend their MVP...you need to have pride in your team...but i expected at least a few to at least admit that it was a questionable choice. Because it was a VERY questionable MVP choice.


There is always a doubt when a pure PG wins award because their primary job is to run the offense and NOT taking the shots and look good on the stats sheet. 

PG's main job is also to provide leadership which many PGs in the league fails to do. 

Nash provides on-court and off-court leadership. His creation turns this Suns to be the most potent offensive team in the past 10 years. Efficiecy-wise, Suns could be ranked as high as the Top 5 best offensive team in the history of NBA.

Having said that, the primary reason (IMO) that Nash won this year is the "surprise" factor when Suns becomes the 3rd best turnaround team in the history of NBA. Suns broke all kind of club records and NBA records. All THESE came with the addition of Steve Nash and Q and I am sure nobody would think Q is the leader.  So the natural CHOICE of IMPACT PLAYER is Stevie Nash. And since the MVP award can only go to one player, Nash is the obvious choice. 


Remember, NBA is an entertainment and all entertainment is about "current-events". Who is the hottest actress right now? Who is the hottest actor? All the media-based awards usually go to the "hottest" and Nash really makes quite a big story after departing from Mavs - Cuban. The media basically turns this into a headline "Nash VS Dirk", "Nash VS Cuban" and now "Nash VS Dampier". 


Not saying Nash is lucky but the surprising factor really did help him but many doubters should look at what Nash has done in the post season. I am glad Nash stepped up and proved why he is the MVP this season. 


Oh..and one last thing about Stockton's D.... I have to say, he is quite a dirty player. LOL My twin bro and I were huge fans of Malone/Stockton and sometimes they are really quite dirty. 

Oh and did I mention Malone stole Stockton's votes too? I am sure Amare will start stealing Nash' soon.


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## Delontes Herpes

Jamel Irief said:


> I sure hope that's what he meant.


Yes, it was what I meant. All of those guys you listed are in. Iverson is the only one who might not make it due to his thug image but you can make a hell of a better case for him that you can for Nash.


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## Delontes Herpes

jibikao said:


> There is always a doubt when a pure PG wins award because their primary job is to run the offense and NOT taking the shots and look good on the stats sheet.
> 
> PG's main job is also to provide leadership which many PGs in the league fails to do.
> 
> Nash provides on-court and off-court leadership. His creation turns this Suns to be the most potent offensive team in the past 10 years. Efficiecy-wise, Suns could be ranked as high as the Top 5 best offensive team in the history of NBA.
> 
> Having said that, the primary reason (IMO) that Nash won this year is the "surprise" factor when Suns becomes the 3rd best turnaround team in the history of NBA. Suns broke all kind of club records and NBA records. All THESE came with the addition of Steve Nash and Q and I am sure nobody would think Q is the leader.  So the natural CHOICE of IMPACT PLAYER is Stevie Nash. And since the MVP award can only go to one player, Nash is the obvious choice.
> 
> 
> Remember, NBA is an entertainment and all entertainment is about "current-events". Who is the hottest actress right now? Who is the hottest actor? All the media-based awards usually go to the "hottest" and Nash really makes quite a big story after departing from Mavs - Cuban. The media basically turns this into a headline "Nash VS Dirk", "Nash VS Cuban" and now "Nash VS Dampier".
> 
> 
> Not saying Nash is lucky but the surprising factor really did help him but many doubters should look at what Nash has done in the post season. I am glad Nash stepped up and proved why he is the MVP this season.
> 
> 
> Oh..and one last thing about Stockton's D.... I have to say, he is quite a dirty player. LOL My twin bro and I were huge fans of Malone/Stockton and sometimes they are really quite dirty.
> 
> Oh and did I mention Malone stole Stockton's votes too? I am sure Amare will start stealing Nash' soon.


Yeah, the surprise factor is one of the main reasons he won. However, Nash gets far too much credit for the turnaround. Here are some important reasons that get looked over.

1) Amare was hurt and missed 27 games. And it would be ridiculous to assume he was 100% in every game he played after he returned from the injury in early Feb. Add to the fact that he progressed from his 2nd season to his 3rd and this accounts for a large portion of the suns additional wins.

2) Joe Johnson had a year of progression...remember, he's still fairly young.

3) Last year the Suns were constantly shuffling guys in and out of the lineup, making it hard to develop any sort of chemistry. Aside from Marion and JJ, the only guys who played in 60+ games were: casey jacobsen, jake voskuhl, jahidi white, and leandro barbosa. You can't expect to win with that core.

4) Q was a bigger addition than people realize, mainly because Shaq was moved to the East. That allowed Phoenix to remove Voskuhl from the starting lineup and play Amare at C and Marion at PF. Q came in and took Voskuhl's starting spot...that is a HUGE upgrade.

5) These improvements aren't as big as the others, but Hunter over Jahidi and half a season of JJ over Jacobsen are improvements nonetheless.

6) Nash didn't replace an average point guard in the league. He wasn't even replacing and Antonio Daniels. He was replacing LEANDRO BARBOSA. Most any PG would be an improvement over him. And for the hell of it, Barbosa is a better backup than whoever the hell was backing him up last year (and he progressed)

Not to mention that all of these guys blended together perfectly to create a beautiful offense.

Also, people are quick to forget Phoenix's year before last. They made the playoffs with marbury, marion, a young amare, and not much else. They took 2 from the eventual champion spurs with a washed up Penny Hardaway and Scott Freakin Williams rounding out the starting lineup. And off the bench: Voskuhl and a young JJ (who had an awful series). Casey Jacobsen and Bo Outlaw saw limited minutes as well. Basically, things just fell apart for them last year and by adding Nash and Q they were able to put them together and then some.


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## jibikao

Delontes Herpes said:


> Yeah, the surprise factor is one of the main reasons he won. However, Nash gets far too much credit for the turnaround. Here are some important reasons that get looked over.
> 
> 1) Amare was hurt and missed 27 games. And it would be ridiculous to assume he was 100% in every game he played after he returned from the injury in early Feb. Add to the fact that he progressed from his 2nd season to his 3rd and this accounts for a large portion of the suns additional wins.
> 
> 2) Joe Johnson had a year of progression...remember, he's still fairly young.
> 
> 3) Last year the Suns were constantly shuffling guys in and out of the lineup, making it hard to develop any sort of chemistry. Aside from Marion and JJ, the only guys who played in 60+ games were: casey jacobsen, jake voskuhl, jahidi white, and leandro barbosa. You can't expect to win with that core.
> 
> 4) Q was a bigger addition than people realize, mainly because Shaq was moved to the East. That allowed Phoenix to remove Voskuhl from the starting lineup and play Amare at C and Marion at PF. Q came in and took Voskuhl's starting spot...that is a HUGE upgrade.
> 
> 5) These improvements aren't as big as the others, but Hunter over Jahidi and half a season of JJ over Jacobsen are improvements nonetheless.
> 
> 6) Nash didn't replace an average point guard in the league. He wasn't even replacing and Antonio Daniels. He was replacing LEANDRO BARBOSA. Most any PG would be an improvement over him. And for the hell of it, Barbosa is a better backup than whoever the hell was backing him up last year (and he progressed)
> 
> Not to mention that all of these guys blended together perfectly to create a beautiful offense.
> 
> Also, people are quick to forget Phoenix's year before last. They made the playoffs with marbury, marion, a young amare, and not much else. They took 2 from the eventual champion spurs with a washed up Penny Hardaway and Scott Freakin Williams rounding out the starting lineup. And off the bench: Voskuhl and a young JJ (who had an awful series). Casey Jacobsen and Bo Outlaw saw limited minutes as well. Basically, things just fell apart for them last year and by adding Nash and Q they were able to put them together and then some.



One thing you need to know is for a team to win 62 games, you must have more than ONE player's production. You do know Michael Jordan has 4 other players around him right? One is a Hall of Fame and the other one is one of the best rebounders in the league. MJ didn't do it all by himself.  


If you apply that knowledge that Basketball IS a team sports, you should know that at some point during this season, all those young players need to step up in order for Suns to win a championship, which they never did. 

Young players are improving EVERYDAY especially with hungry young players like Amare, Q and JJ. 

Yes, Amare has developed some nice shots and yes JJ has developed his game and yes Q is a nice addition but all these is a part of Suns' team. You can't take away the leadership Nash provides by saying "Oh, all these players' improvement has nothing to do with Nash." 


Duncan had won several MVP awards and can you dare say that Parker, Bowen and Ginobli didn't help Duncan? Parker has improved EVERY YEAR and Ginobli has shaped into an all-star and Bowen is their defensive stop player. All these ARE part of a great team. You don't discredit Duncan by saying "OH, Duncan doesn't deserve sh!t 'cause he has a great team". 

Yes, Suns had a bad year last year but some Suns fans said Suns had a little bit better record after the Marbury trade. Amare/Marion said they get more shots with Nash being the PG instead of Marbury (what they were implying to say is Nash gets them involved!!). Marbury didn't really make use of what Amare can offer. Nash has really helped Amare to be such a dominant force this year. 

Now everybody is going to look at Amare differently and you can't say "Oh, Nash has nothing to do with it." Nash has A LOT to do with the development of those young players! 


You can come up 100+ reasons to discredit a player if you don't believe he is worth it and I think that's what most people are doing because Nash doesn't have the image of a "legend" like MJ, Bird, Magic and Duncan. People always think MVP should go to the "legends" but this is the year for Nash. I can't think of any other player that deserves more than Nash. Not one. Shaq is close but to be honest with you, I would pick Dirk over Shaq this season (but that's another discussion). 

Nash took on A LOT MORE challenges than any other PGs in this league. 

Nash needs to deal with the fact that Cuban said he ain't worth it and many people are waiting for the moment "Ha ha, I told you Nash wears down!". I am a Nash fan and I was so worried that Nash couldn't take on the challenge because he was sort of "overshadowed" when he was in Mavs. I've always thought Nash was the leader, not Dirk, not Finely. He was the heart and soul of that team but sadly, Mavs could never figure out what a real fast-break team is. 

Another thing is people tend to forget the "nature" of a point guard. Point Guard's job is to run the offense and those things don't appear on the stats sheet besides assists. PG needs "puppets" to run the show so naturally people would tihnk "Oh, all Nash is doing is to throw the ball to the guys, nothing special". If you watch Nash's game, he is much more than that. Suns has NO real setplays. It all depends on Nash's creation. And are you telling me Suns' offense sucks?? 


The biggest and probably the stupdiest argument I've heard is "Oh, just throw in any other decent PG and Suns will just be as good!"

The biggest flaw in this argument is YOU CAN'T PROVE IT. You just can't. And awards are NOT based on something that is NOT a fact. When you judge a person's success, you judge by facts. And the facts are Nash has helped this team to be the 3rd best turnaround team in the history of NBA and Suns is the #1 team in the league. That's what media was looking for. They look for "hot stories" every year and Suns IS the hottest story in 2005. 

Let me give you an example. Take Titanics for example. One of the best selling movies of all time. It won tons of award except for best actor and actress. When the people judging this movie, they don't discredit the chemistry of Leonardo and Kay by saying "oh, any decent actors/actresses can take their roles. It's nothing special". The critics can only judge WHAT'S present to them and that's exactly what happens when they judge Suns. They don't judge Suns based on "mmmm, I think if Kidd is here, Suns will be just as good". If you do that, then you are a BAD judge. 


Sorry, I've typed so much but I am just very tired of people discrediting Nash for what he's done. He has already proven why he is the leader and MVP by giving out one of the best performances in the recent playoffs. I am not sure what more you want from him. I really don't. Just give Nash a break... and move on to 2006.


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## Delontes Herpes

I do think that Nash made players better. I do think that he's the best PG in the league. I don't think that they would be as good with an average PG. I just think that his impact is a bit overrated.

I say if you make Jason Kidd (now, not in his prime) their starting PG and I say they win 60 instead of 62. If you make Antonio Daniels their starting PG and they still win 55 and at least advance to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Just some rough estimations.


----------



## Delontes Herpes

I would like to clear that I'm not trying to say that Nash is useless and that he shouldn't even be top 50 in MVP. I think he should be top 10. He's just not as valuable as guys like Dirk, KG, Duncan, Shaq, Amare, Wade, and Lebron


----------



## PhatDaddy3100

Delontes Herpes said:


> I would like to clear that I'm not trying to say that Nash is useless and that he shouldn't even be top 50 in MVP. I think he should be top 10. He's just not as valuable as guys like Dirk, KG, Duncan, Shaq, Amare, Wade, and Lebron



ARe you serious? NAsh was our MVP, Amare is nothing without nash, Amare gets so many easy dunks off the pick and roll they run its quite pathetic. Duncan was injured a lot of the yera, and his team won without him. Dirk's team won less games, Shaq and Wade? YOu say he is less important to a team when you say two mvp canidates are from the same team? 

bAsically, who would you have wanted to win MVP? Shaq? No, as proved with a superstar with wade that wouldnt make sense. Duncan's team proved they could win without him. And We won more games than drik. Only other logical choice is nash, seeing how he was the MVP of this SEASON! Stop comparing him to past players, the past doesnt matter when your talking about this year's mvp.


----------



## ShuHanGuanYu

Delontes Herpes said:


> I do think that Nash made players better. I do think that he's the best PG in the league. I don't think that they would be as good with an average PG. I just think that his impact is a bit overrated.
> 
> I say if you make Jason Kidd (now, not in his prime) their starting PG and I say they win 60 instead of 62. If you make Antonio Daniels their starting PG and they still win 55 and at least advance to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Just some rough estimations.


That comment is terribly wrong. With Kidd, they cannot run their whole pick and roll offense with him and Amare. They have decimated Dallas' defense with the pick and roll. 2 out of every three games, Kidd can barely make a ten footer. He can pass, but he does not have the same scoring ability that is needed to keep defenders honest and not sagging back to double Amare. Plus, Kidd is hurt a lot. With Jason Kidd, Amare's offensive numbers drop back to a more human level.


----------



## Delontes Herpes

wow, phoenix won 4 more games than dirk so that rules him out? compare the supporting casts, it's not even close, nash's is miles better.

the spurs won without duncan? i guess that's why they went 48-13 (if you take out the last 4 games where the spurs went 1-3 playing him 20-28 minutes a game at far under 100%) with him, 10-7 without him?

amare is nothing without nash? you mean the guy who averaged 20.6 last year despite being derailed by injuries? the guy who is obviously going to get better this year because he was only 21 years old last year? maybe nash just gets a lot of easy assists off the pick and roll because of amare.

and shaq or wade can't win because they have 2 MVP caliber players but that rule doesn't apply to the suns who arguably have 3?

and say all you want about the t'wolves not making the playoffs blah blah blah, but they were above .500 and that team is worse than the bobcats without KG's 24, 14, and 6.


----------



## Delontes Herpes

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> That comment is terribly wrong. With Kidd, they cannot run their whole pick and roll offense with him and Amare. They have decimated Dallas' defense with the pick and roll. 2 out of every three games, Kidd can barely make a ten footer. He can pass, but he does not have the same scoring ability that is needed to keep defenders honest and not sagging back to double Amare. Plus, Kidd is hurt a lot. With Jason Kidd, Amare's offensive numbers drop back to a more human level.


a healthy kidd is assumed in my point.

yes he has a worse shot, but his defense and rebounding help atone for that.

by a more human level do you mean 25 points/game w/ a 55 FG %?


----------



## BBB

Delontes Herpes said:


> i know you guys probably already talked about nash's MVP but he's gotta be the worst MVP pick ever. name one other MVP who
> 
> 2) wasn't a hall of famer


I absolutely hate it when people use this point to justify against Nash being the MVP. 

In order to be a HOFer, you'd need stand out throughout your career (well, at least most of your career). Whereas, to become eligible for MVP considerations, you need to be uber-productive compared to other players in that particular season only. 

So by your theory, if a guy has been average for most of his career, but somehow turn his play up by a few notches, playing superbly compared to other players in the league, he should not be considered for MVP because of his inferior career?


----------



## Dissonance

BBB said:


> I absolutely hate it when people use this point to justify against Nash being the MVP.
> 
> In order to be a HOFer, you'd need stand out throughout your career (well, at least most of your career). Whereas, to become eligible for MVP considerations, you need to be uber-productive compared to other players in that particular season only.
> 
> So by your theory, if a guy has been average for most of his career, but somehow turn his play up by a few notches, playing superbly compared to other players in the league, he should not be considered for MVP because of his inferior career?



Yeah, there is no requirement for an MVP to be a franchise player or even a HOFer. I see a lot of people trying to make that point in saying that's why he shouldn't be MVP because you wouldn't take him in some fantasy draft or because of him not being a franchise player. It goes to who had the best season. I mean it's debatable between he and Shaq. Shaq not playing the last few weeks didn't exactly help him. We won quite a bit the last 2 weeks of the yr as well.


----------



## ShuHanGuanYu

Delontes Herpes said:


> a healthy kidd is assumed in my point.
> 
> yes he has a worse shot, but his defense and rebounding help atone for that.
> 
> by a more human level do you mean 25 points/game w/ a 55 FG %?


You rely too much on stats. The Suns would become a team that only works well in the fastbreak. Right now, they are good at scoring in the half court because they rely on Nash-Amare pick and roll. Another aspect to think about is chemistry. The Suns have it like few others, and it starts with team leader Steve Nash. I'm not sure they'd have it the same way if they had Kidd.

Kidd does not just have a worse shot. His offense has little respect, and rightly so. The guy has posted a lot of season in the three hundreds as far as FG%. There's no saying for sure what Amare would have, but I think his FG% would be closer to 50%. It could even be lower, since defenders would have little need to stick tightly to Kidd like they do Nash.


----------



## Delontes Herpes

BBB said:


> I absolutely hate it when people use this point to justify against Nash being the MVP.
> 
> In order to be a HOFer, you'd need stand out throughout your career (well, at least most of your career). Whereas, to become eligible for MVP considerations, you need to be uber-productive compared to other players in that particular season only.
> 
> So by your theory, if a guy has been average for most of his career, but somehow turn his play up by a few notches, playing superbly compared to other players in the league, he should not be considered for MVP because of his inferior career?


it's not a coincidence that every MVP has made the hall of fame or will in the future. MVP caliber fluke seasons don't happen in basketball. Nobody plays their whole career without getting an ounce of MVP consideration and just wins it out of the blue at the age of 31. That just doesn't happen. Nash had a great season but it has been immensely overrated.

Yes he has made the supporting cast better, but even moreso, the supporting cast has made him better.


----------



## Delontes Herpes

dissonance19 said:


> Yeah, there is no requirement for an MVP to be a franchise player or even a HOFer. I see a lot of people trying to make that point in saying that's why he shouldn't be MVP because you wouldn't take him in some fantasy draft or because of him not being a franchise player. It goes to who had the best season. I mean it's debatable between he and Shaq. Shaq not playing the last few weeks didn't exactly help him. We won quite a bit the last 2 weeks of the yr as well.


NO IT DOES NOT COME DOWN TO SHAQ VS NASH!

It can come down to Dirk vs. Shaq. or Dirk vs. KG. or Dirk vs. Shaq vs. KG. or hell, Amare vs. Dirk. but Nash isn't a top 5 candidate.


----------



## BBB

Do you see my point? 

MVP rewards those who had an outstanding season, whereas HOFers are those who had outstanding careers. The two may seem similar, but they're not the same. 

Read through my post again, especially the last paragraph. Can you really not find fault with the theory that you are presenting?


----------



## Delontes Herpes

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> You rely too much on stats. The Suns would become a team that only works well in the fastbreak. Right now, they are good at scoring in the half court because they rely on Nash-Amare pick and roll. Another aspect to think about is chemistry. The Suns have it like few others, and it starts with team leader Steve Nash. I'm not sure they'd have it the same way if they had Kidd.
> 
> Kidd does not just have a worse shot. His offense has little respect, and rightly so. The guy has posted a lot of season in the three hundreds as far as FG%. There's no saying for sure what Amare would have, but I think his FG% would be closer to 50%. It could even be lower, since defenders would have little need to stick tightly to Kidd like they do Nash.


OK, their offense would be worse with kidd.

However, their defense and rebounding would be slightly better.

Add in both factors, and you end up with a slight net loss of 2, maybe 3 games. Case Closed.


----------



## BBB

Delontes Herpes said:


> NO IT DOES NOT COME DOWN TO SHAQ VS NASH!
> 
> It can come down to Dirk vs. Shaq. or Dirk vs. KG. or Dirk vs. Shaq vs. KG. or hell, Amare vs. Dirk. but Nash isn't a top 5 candidate.


Do you honestly feel that KG was a top 5 MVP candidate this year, and Nash wasn't?


----------



## BBB

Delontes Herpes said:


> OK, their offense would be worse with kidd.
> 
> However, their defense and rebounding would be slightly better.
> 
> Add in both factors, and you end up with a slight net loss of 2, maybe 3 games. Case Closed.


Hmm... But sadly, MVP is awarded to whoever contributes to their teams the greatest in *reality*. Nash is the one leading the Suns to an awesome season thus far, not Kidd.


----------



## Dissonance

Delontes Herpes said:


> NO IT DOES NOT COME DOWN TO SHAQ VS NASH!
> 
> It can come down to Dirk vs. Shaq. or Dirk vs. KG. or Dirk vs. Shaq vs. KG. or hell, Amare vs. Dirk. but Nash isn't a top 5 candidate.


I'll give you Dirk. But not KG. And I can't say Amare is MVP candidate yet. Nash had just as much impact as he did. Not saying Amare was some bum before Nash got there cuz it's not true. But I don't see how you can say Nash is not top 5 though. He put up 15 pts a game, and 11.5 assists. Help take us to 62 wins, from 29 last yr? Of course everyone had a role in it though but this argument how he doesn't derserve it cuz he's not a HOFer is not a good one because you do not have to be. There is no rule on that.


----------



## azswami

Delontes Herpes said:


> what i was saying is that nash is the 3rd best player on his team this year.
> 
> and he has pretty much played this well his whole career. this year he just had an amazing supporting cast
> 
> he doesn't even deserve to be considered for the HoF (seriously, he's going to be the first MVP to miss the HoF. there is a reason for this- because he didn't deserve it) and he didn't deserve to be considered for MVP.
> 
> he had a great year and really helped the suns clinch the 1 seed in the west, but there are about 10 guys who i think deserved it more than him.



These two say it all;



Delontes Herpes said:


> what i was saying is that nash is the 3rd best player on his team this year.
> 
> and he has pretty much played this well his whole career. this year he just had an amazing supporting cast


Which is it? Is Nash the 3rd best player on the team, or are they the 'supporting cast' because he is the best player??

Jordan and Pippen were never Rodman or Kerrs supporting cast.

Your fist two paragraphs contradict one another. IF Nash is indeed the third best player, then HE would be part of the supporting cast as opposed to having one.

If that isn't enough, being the best player and being the most valuable player are two different things. It's MVP, not MBP (Most Bestest Player). Nash's 'VALUE' to the team can't be denied.

Amare got the ball in scoring position all season long, and it would appear to me that the guy that slam dunked the entire league (not even close) in that category just may have had something to do with it. Some people just don't 'VALUE' a team player..... They all voted for someone else.


----------



## ShuHanGuanYu

Delontes Herpes said:


> OK, their offense would be worse with kidd.
> 
> However, their defense and rebounding would be slightly better.
> 
> Add in both factors, and you end up with a slight net loss of 2, maybe 3 games. Case Closed.


Half court offense = much worse.
Defense and rebounding = slightly better.

Hmm, interesting. Another cool statistic that shows something. Kidd has never averaged more than 12.7 assists per 48 minutes. Nash 16.1 this year. That is incredible.

That equals 2 games, especially considering Kidd missed 14 games this year and 15 last year? Tough luck buddy, you lose this one.


----------



## Delontes Herpes

dissonance19 said:


> I'll give you Dirk. But not KG. And I can't say Amare is MVP candidate yet. Nash had just as much impact as he did. Not saying Amare was some bum before Nash got there cuz it's not true. But I don't see how you can say Nash is not top 5 though. He put up 15 pts a game, and 11.5 assists. Help take us to 62 wins, from 29 last yr? Of course everyone had a role in it though but this argument how he doesn't derserve it cuz he's not a HOFer is not a good one because you do not have to be. There is no rule on that.


You realize that KG's 24 pts 14 rebs 6 assists is MUCH MUCH MUCH more impressive than 15 pts 11.5 assists right? Yes Nash helped but you don't have to give him credit for every single f'in game of the turnaround dammit. As I pointed out there are too many other factors that people ignore.


----------



## Delontes Herpes

azswami said:


> These two say it all;
> 
> 
> 
> Which is it? Is Nash the 3rd best player on the team, or are they the 'supporting cast' because he is the best player??
> 
> Jordan and Pippen were never Rodman or Kerrs supporting cast.
> 
> Your fist two paragraphs contradict one another. IF Nash is indeed the third best player, then HE would be part of the supporting cast as opposed to having one.
> 
> If that isn't enough, being the best player and being the most valuable player are two different things. It's MVP, not MBP (Most Bestest Player). Nash's 'VALUE' to the team can't be denied.
> 
> Amare got the ball in scoring position all season long, and it would appear to me that the guy that slam dunked the entire league (not even close) in that category just may have had something to do with it. Some people just don't 'VALUE' a team player..... They all voted for someone else.


Did I say that Marion, Nash, and Amare were on Jake Voskuhl and Leandro Barbosa's supporting cast? I'm pretty sure I didn't. Your point is useless


----------



## Delontes Herpes

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> Half court offense = much worse.
> Defense and rebounding = slightly better.
> 
> Hmm, interesting. Another cool statistic that shows something. Kidd has never averaged more than 12.7 assists per 48 minutes. Nash 16.1 this year. That is incredible.
> 
> That equals 2 games, especially considering Kidd missed 14 games this year and 15 last year? Tough luck buddy, you lose this one.


I SAID KIDD IS ASSUMED TO BE HEALTHY. I WASN'T PLUGGING HIM FOR MVP. I WAS JUST SAYING THAT NASH IS REPLACEABLE.

This argument will never be settled so let's just drop it. I don't think the Suns would be more than 2 or 3 games worse with Kidd, you disagree. However, the ultimate point is that if you replace Nash with an average PG (not Kidd) you don't lose that many games. Not nearly as many games as you'd lose by replacing Dirk or KG or Duncan with the average PF


----------



## jibikao

Gee...seems like this debate goes on and on again. lol


----------



## jibikao

Delontes Herpes said:


> I do think that Nash made players better. I do think that he's the best PG in the league. I don't think that they would be as good with an average PG. I just think that his impact is a bit overrated.
> 
> I say if you make Jason Kidd (now, not in his prime) their starting PG and I say they win 60 instead of 62. If you make Antonio Daniels their starting PG and they still win 55 and at least advance to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Just some rough estimations.


I guess you didn't read my post then. (man..what a waste of typing on my part)
... :curse: 

I just said that awards are given out based on "facts" and now you are giving me another "what if" situation. The judges/writers DO NOT CARE "what if Suns has Kidd..." "what if Suns has this and that instead of Nash".... you even said things like "Oh, if Suns has Kidd, then Suns will win 60W" If they have Daniel...they'll have about 55W. This is not only CHILDISH but stupid. Who in the world would give out awards based on this??? If putting players together is as easy as "Oh, this guy with this guy will be the best team!", then why do we have teams like Hawks that just can't get their sh!t together? What about our Olympic team 2004?? They probably have the best group of players but that DOES NOT mean it's the BEST team. There is MORE to it. More than "Oh, Kidd is a better defender so he is > Nash". No. It's MORE to it. There's chemistry, ego-problem, on and off court persona and a whole lot more. 

YOu know what. I was just saying that many doubters never really care what Nash has done. They spend 110% of their energy trying to find HOLES why Nash doesn't deserve it. 

Instead of trashing Nash, why don't you discuss what Shaq has done this season?? From the games I've watched, Wade is the go-to guy. He can lead WITH and WITHOUT Shaq. Yes, Heat won't be as good without Shaq but Wade has proven he can lead the team to a pretty good record when Shaq is out. 

And you doubters seem to forget that Shaq does get A LOT OF VOTES. It's not like Shaq got very few votes and Nash led by 20% of the vote. I think this is one of the closest MVP voting results so Nash only edged Shaq by a little. Peopld DO KNOW Shaq has a great season but Nash has a better one. 


If you have LITTLE, TINY BIT of sportsmanship in you, you should just drop this topic because obviously you would find whatever reason to say how Nash isn't worth it. 


You even go far saying how Nash isn't as important as Dirk, KG, Duncan..blah blah blah. Did you even watch Suns' games??? Stop looking at the stats. Just WATCH the game and you will see why Nash is so important.


----------



## Dissonance

Delontes Herpes said:


> You realize that KG's 24 pts 14 rebs 6 assists is MUCH MUCH MUCH more impressive than 15 pts 11.5 assists right? Yes Nash helped but you don't have to give him credit for every single f'in game of the turnaround dammit. As I pointed out there are too many other factors that people ignore.


Wolves weren't exactly a good team last yr. And I never freaking said he attributed to EVERY game. But he was a big part of it. *No matter what you say*. We ignore things? LOL, YOU IGNORE EVERYTHING!!! You're hopeless, just forget this whole thing. No point in doing this. Waste of time. Steve Nash is MVP, whether you like it or not. You can whine, complain, throw all the numbers at us. This things been debated, dissected, and WHO ARE YOU to say he deserves it or not? Since you started it all.


----------



## jibikao

dissonance19 said:


> Wolves weren't exactly a good team last yr. And I never freaking said he attributed to EVERY game. But he was a big part of it. *No matter what you say*. We ignore things? LOL, YOU IGNORE EVERYTHING!!! You're hopeless, just forget this whole thing. No point in doing this. Waste of time. Steve Nash is MVP, whether you like it or not. You can whine, complain, throw all the numbers at us. This things been debated, dissected, and WHO ARE YOU to say he deserves it or not? Since you started it all.


dissonance19...you are right, he is hopeless. LOL 

This guy is here to troll...really.


----------



## Dissonance

jibikao said:


> dissonance19...you are right, he is hopeless. LOL
> 
> This guy is here to troll...really.



:laugh: Exactly. He even started a thread in Boston Celtics forum about this. I saw it yesterday


----------



## ShuHanGuanYu

SINCE THE LANGUAGE YOU SPEAK IS IN CAPS, I WILL NOW SPEAK THAT WAY AS WELL. I WAS NOT SAYING YOU ARGUED KIDD AS MVP. I WAS SAYING WHY KIDD ON THE SUNS DOES NOT WORK AS WELL AS YOU THINK. YOU CANNOT REPLACE NASH WITH AN AVERAGE POINT GUARD AND HAVE THE SUNS STILL WIN ALMOST AS MANY GAMES. PERIOD.

How can you "assume Kidd to be healthy" when he wasn't? You can keep your opinion, that's cool. But having watched the Suns for 92 games this year, I see everything Nash does that keeps this team going.


----------



## Delontes Herpes

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> SINCE THE LANGUAGE YOU SPEAK IS IN CAPS, I WILL NOW SPEAK THAT WAY AS WELL. I WAS NOT SAYING YOU ARGUED KIDD AS MVP. I WAS SAYING WHY KIDD ON THE SUNS DOES NOT WORK AS WELL AS YOU THINK. YOU CANNOT REPLACE NASH WITH AN AVERAGE POINT GUARD AND HAVE THE SUNS STILL WIN ALMOST AS MANY GAMES. PERIOD.
> 
> How can you "assume Kidd to be healthy" when he wasn't? You can keep your opinion, that's cool. But having watched the Suns for 92 games this year, I see everything Nash does that keeps this team going.


OK, let's just drop the whole Kidd ordeal...it's getting us nowhere and we're having some serious miscommunication on his health issues.


----------



## Delontes Herpes

jibikao said:


> I guess you didn't read my post then. (man..what a waste of typing on my part)
> ... :curse:
> 
> I just said that awards are given out based on "facts" and now you are giving me another "what if" situation. The judges/writers DO NOT CARE "what if Suns has Kidd..." "what if Suns has this and that instead of Nash".... you even said things like "Oh, if Suns has Kidd, then Suns will win 60W" If they have Daniel...they'll have about 55W. This is not only CHILDISH but stupid. Who in the world would give out awards based on this??? If putting players together is as easy as "Oh, this guy with this guy will be the best team!", then why do we have teams like Hawks that just can't get their sh!t together? What about our Olympic team 2004?? They probably have the best group of players but that DOES NOT mean it's the BEST team. There is MORE to it. More than "Oh, Kidd is a better defender so he is > Nash". No. It's MORE to it. There's chemistry, ego-problem, on and off court persona and a whole lot more.
> 
> YOu know what. I was just saying that many doubters never really care what Nash has done. They spend 110% of their energy trying to find HOLES why Nash doesn't deserve it.
> 
> Instead of trashing Nash, why don't you discuss what Shaq has done this season?? From the games I've watched, Wade is the go-to guy. He can lead WITH and WITHOUT Shaq. Yes, Heat won't be as good without Shaq but Wade has proven he can lead the team to a pretty good record when Shaq is out.
> 
> And you doubters seem to forget that Shaq does get A LOT OF VOTES. It's not like Shaq got very few votes and Nash led by 20% of the vote. I think this is one of the closest MVP voting results so Nash only edged Shaq by a little. Peopld DO KNOW Shaq has a great season but Nash has a better one.
> 
> 
> If you have LITTLE, TINY BIT of sportsmanship in you, you should just drop this topic because obviously you would find whatever reason to say how Nash isn't worth it.
> 
> 
> You even go far saying how Nash isn't as important as Dirk, KG, Duncan..blah blah blah. Did you even watch Suns' games??? Stop looking at the stats. Just WATCH the game and you will see why Nash is so important.


I skimmed your long post. It seemed to be just a lot of rambling. I reread it just now and I'd say I was pretty much right.

Anyway to address your point about the fact that you can't prove how the Suns would be without Nash- this is correct. Judging how good they would be with any other point guard is just speculation. And that's what voting for the MVP is- speculating which player has the most value. There aren't any stats or formulas to prove this (even the most accurate MVP formula ever which i posted earlier is very rough).

And the fallacy of your argument is that it's an appeal to ignorance. Just because you can't prove something it doesn't make it untrue.

And I said that Dirk should be MVP and I already pointed out why. Just look at the Mavericks season. They won 58 games with a weak supporting cast for Dirk, where many players missed 15+ games. Also, Don Nelson allowed Avery Johnson to coach random games and stepped down towards the end of the year to let Avery take over. Playing for 2 different coaches does not make things easier. Compare that to Nash, who was accompanied in the starting lineup by a future hall of famer (Amare), an all-star (Marion), and 2 above average starters, none of whom missed more than 3 games! Plus he had half a season of Jackson coming off the bench. Given what each player was working with, if they both had equal value the Sun should have won many more games than Dallas...instead they only won 4 more. Hence Dirk is the most valuable player. Period.


----------



## Delontes Herpes

dissonance19 said:


> Wolves weren't exactly a good team last yr. And I never freaking said he attributed to EVERY game. But he was a big part of it. *No matter what you say*. We ignore things? LOL, YOU IGNORE EVERYTHING!!! You're hopeless, just forget this whole thing. No point in doing this. Waste of time. Steve Nash is MVP, whether you like it or not. You can whine, complain, throw all the numbers at us. This things been debated, dissected, and WHO ARE YOU to say he deserves it or not? Since you started it all.


I only ignore weak points.

You implied that his presence contributed the majority of the games they won this year that they didn't last year. This isn't true.

Who am I to say that he doesn't deserve it? I am a basketball fan who is more intelligent than the *******s who voted this douchebag as MVP.

For the record I am not a troll. I was legitimately upset when Nash won MVP because I knew he didn't deserve it. It was an egregious pick, IMO the worst MVP pick ever. I stopped by here to vent some of my anger. That's all.


----------



## xray

Delontes Herpes said:


> I skimmed your long post. It seemed to be just a lot of rambling. I reread it just now and I'd say I was pretty much right.
> 
> Anyway to address your point about the fact that you can't prove how the Suns would be without Nash- this is correct. Judging how good they would be with any other point guard is just speculation. And that's what voting for the MVP is- speculating which player has the most value. There aren't any stats or formulas to prove this (even the most accurate MVP formula ever which i posted earlier is very rough).
> 
> And the fallacy of your argument is that it's an appeal to ignorance. Just because you can't prove something it doesn't make it untrue.
> 
> And I said that Dirk should be MVP and I already pointed out why. Just look at the Mavericks season. They won 58 games with a weak supporting cast for Dirk, where many players missed 15+ games. Also, Don Nelson allowed Avery Johnson to coach random games and stepped down towards the end of the year to let Avery take over. Playing for 2 different coaches does not make things easier. Compare that to Nash, who was accompanied in the starting lineup by a future hall of famer (Amare), an all-star (Marion), and 2 above average starters, none of whom missed more than 3 games! Plus he had half a season of Jackson coming off the bench. Given what each player was working with, if they both had equal value the Sun should have won many more games than Dallas...instead they only won 4 more. Hence Dirk is the most valuable player. Period.


Maybe...

But being a Mavericks fan doesn't sway my opinion that Dirk had a good year, but not MVP caliber. My HSO (hot sports opinion) is that if not for one Eric Dampier, Dirk's scoring average would not be much different from last year, when he was down from previous years. 

Dampier's play in the lane has been well chronicaled, allowing Dirk to not take so many jumpers, and go the basket. Fact is, without this "luxury", teams would have been keying on Dirk bigtime as we're seeing in these playoffs - 

- because of the loss of you know who.


----------



## jibikao

Delontes Herpes said:


> I skimmed your long post. It seemed to be just a lot of rambling. I reread it just now and I'd say I was pretty much right.
> 
> Anyway to address your point about the fact that you can't prove how the Suns would be without Nash- this is correct. Judging how good they would be with any other point guard is just speculation. And that's what voting for the MVP is- speculating which player has the most value. There aren't any stats or formulas to prove this (even the most accurate MVP formula ever which i posted earlier is very rough).
> 
> And the fallacy of your argument is that it's an appeal to ignorance. Just because you can't prove something it doesn't make it untrue.
> 
> And I said that Dirk should be MVP and I already pointed out why. Just look at the Mavericks season. They won 58 games with a weak supporting cast for Dirk, where many players missed 15+ games. Also, Don Nelson allowed Avery Johnson to coach random games and stepped down towards the end of the year to let Avery take over. Playing for 2 different coaches does not make things easier. Compare that to Nash, who was accompanied in the starting lineup by a future hall of famer (Amare), an all-star (Marion), and 2 above average starters, none of whom missed more than 3 games! Plus he had half a season of Jackson coming off the bench. Given what each player was working with, if they both had equal value the Sun should have won many more games than Dallas...instead they only won 4 more. Hence Dirk is the most valuable player. Period.


*Compare that to Nash, who was accompanied in the starting lineup by a future hall of famer (Amare), an all-star (Marion)*.

For god's sake, can somebody please kick him out of here?? Enough of BS. 

There he goes again saying Amare/Marion are future hall of famer so Nash doesn't deserve MVP. 

Man, what's wrong with you??? I keep ramblilng? YOU KEEP COMING UP THESE BS. Yes, Amare/Marion are great but as a Suns fan, I don't even dare to call them HOF YET. And you discredit Nash by saying because he has two future HOF beside him.... OH my freaking god. 


Did I say Dirk wasn't great? In fact, if YOU READ what I said, I gave Dirk my 2nd MVP vote, over Shaq. 

Man, what is your issue? Ok, since I am at work and I love typing, I'll PROVE how stupid your points are: 

1.) *And that's what voting for the MVP is- speculating which player has the most value. There aren't any stats or formulas to prove this (even the most accurate MVP formula ever which i posted earlier is very rough)*. 

Proof: 
After Nash joined Suns. 
a.) Suns won 62W, the 3rd best turnaround team in NBA history
b.) Suns is the #1 team in the whole league, not just West. 
c.) Suns has one of the MOST efficient offense in the history of NBA because Nash runs the point. Their defense ranks about mid-tier. Not as WORSE as most people think. 


2.) *And the fallacy of your argument is that it's an appeal to ignorance. Just because you can't prove something it doesn't make it untrue*.

Again, where does this "truth" come from when you can't prove it? Are going to start telling me there is "God" in this world? You know what, reading what you said, I won't be surprised if you would agree to it. LOL 

You want the TRUTH? Read my #1. 

3.) *They won 58 games with a weak supporting cast for Dirk, where many players missed 15+ games*.

Dude, do you know HOW MUCH money Cuban spent on their roster?? Do you know? Cuban went mad spent 90 millioin of $$$$ while Suns only spent 43 millions so far. For the amount of money Mavs spent on their roster, it DOES NOT SURPRISE ME A BIT that they can still win quality games without Dirk. They may not win the elite teams but good enough to beat the low-tier teams. 

Yes, injuries suck and that's why I hate it when Nash went down for 5 games. That losing streak does suck so bad and I want more than 62W.  

And how can you discredit Nash by saying Mavs is injured? Is it Nash's fault that Mavs' players were so injury proned???!!! This doesn't make any sense at all. Mavs did have a great season and that's why Dirk has my 2nd MVP vote and he got 3rd highest MVP votes. Enough said. 

4.) *Compare that to Nash, who was accompanied in the starting lineup by a future hall of famer (Amare), an all-star (Marion), and 2 above average starters, none of whom missed more than 3 games*!

This is probably the funniest one of all. 

Hey, why don't you post a message in NBA General by claiming that Nash is not MVP because Amare and Marion are HOF?? I would like to see how many people agree with you. PLEASE DO IT FOR ME. Just for me. I really want to know. 



Even a Mavs fan came here to say Dirk is excellent but ain't MVP yet. Man...you are helpless...really.


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## Dissonance

Delontes Herpes said:


> I only ignore weak points.
> 
> You implied that his presence contributed the majority of the games they won this year that they didn't last year. This isn't true.
> 
> Who am I to say that he doesn't deserve it? I am a basketball fan who is more intelligent than the *******s who voted this douchebag as MVP.
> 
> For the record I am not a troll. I was legitimately upset when Nash won MVP because I knew he didn't deserve it. It was an egregious pick, IMO the worst MVP pick ever. I stopped by here to vent some of my anger. That's all.



:laugh: :laugh: cuz your points are strong? lol 

And yeah his presence contributed the most/part of the games we won this year that they didn't last year. Because he wasn't on our team last yr.

And those guys are more qualified than you to be saying so. You are bball fan? Yes but you can question. I don't see a point in getting so angry or taking it so personal. And calling him some douche bag? If you want your opinion or thoughts to be taken seriously, douche bag is not one way to make it that way.


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## Delontes Herpes

jibikao- how bout you work on your reading comprehension?

A) first of all, I didn't say that marion is a future hall of famer. i said he is an allstar. as for amare, 10 more years like this year (he should get even better) and he should be in. unless he gets derailed by a major injury, its very unlikely that he misses the hall.
B) did i say nash can't be MVP because amare is a future HoF and marion is an allstar? no, i said he has MUCH more to work with than dirk and his team only won 4 more freakin games.
C) look at the knicks payroll! it's $13 mill higher than the mavericks! they must be really good, right?
D) have you considered that it's not a discredit nash, but rather a credit to dirk that he has found a way to win with key players on his team injured? or have you just been assuming that everything i say is an attack on nash?
E) learn to write in english, as well as read.

you're main problem with reading comprehension is that you assume that there is an attack on nash underlying in every single argument i make. en contraire, i already said he had a great season and is a top 10 candidate. what i have been arguing is simply that there are better players out there.


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## Delontes Herpes

dissonance19 said:


> And yeah his presence contributed the most/part of the games we won this year that they didn't last year. Because he wasn't on our team last yr.


Things just aren't cut and dry like this...as I have addressed earlier, other players have been added, other players have gotten better, and the overall allocation of playing time has been entirely altered.


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## BBB

You say you're trying credit Dirk for his season, and not discredit Nash. That's fair. But you have Nash in the top 10 and not even close to being a strong candidate for the MVP award? That seems to me as though you're discrediting Nash... big time.


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## spongyfungy

wow. what a shot. 111-111.


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## jibikao

Delontes Herpes said:


> Things just aren't cut and dry like this...as I have addressed earlier, other players have been added, other players have gotten better, and the overall allocation of playing time has been entirely altered.


Calm down jibikao. No need to say that.


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## Delontes Herpes

BBB said:


> You say you're trying credit Dirk for his season, and not discredit Nash. That's fair. But you have Nash in the top 10 and not even close to being a strong candidate for the MVP award? That seems to me as though you're discrediting Nash... big time.


No, I'm just not blowing him.


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## Dissonance

Someone lock this thread so this [insert insult here] quits posting this crap he keeps spewing from his mouth?


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## #15DENVER#6NUGGETS#23

Delontes Herpes said:


> Wow, just wow. Have you followed the history of the NBA at all? Wow, I just don't know where to start.
> 
> I suppose this puts Brevin Knight on the bubble for the hall of fame. He did finish 2nd with 9 assists/game this year.
> 
> Or how about Andre Miller? He was the only one to average double digits in 01-02 when he averaged 10.9. Let's pencil him in for the hall.
> 
> What about Kevin Porter? He did it twice when he averaged 10.8 in 77-78 then 13.1 in 78-79. He's surely in the Hall. Oh wait, he isn't? How did that work out?
> 
> And the list goes on: Michael Ray Richardson and Guy Rodgers also were the only ones to average double digit assists in a season and they also missed the hall.
> 
> So what makes Nash better than these guys? His 12.8 pts/game career scoring average? His career 2.6 rebounds/game? His 0.8 steals/game? His infamously poor defense? He has had a solid career and he has a few good years left. But he's 31 and if you think he has enough left in him to pile up HoF numbers, you just don't know basketball.
> 
> EDIT: Also this is the first year that Nash has led the league in assists and just the 2nd year he was even in the top 7.



wait did they get double digit points also?.......ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nice try.....and mvp is on how much u mean to your team, steve nash is the man and he got the mvp because he earned it


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## Delontes Herpes

#15DENVER#6NUGGETS#23 said:


> wait did they get double digit points also?.......ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nice try.....and mvp is on how much u mean to your team, steve nash is the man and he got the mvp because he earned it


ummm...actually they all did get double digit points.


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## PhatDaddy3100

I have only got one thing to say, Nash averaged 30 points, 6.5 rebounds, and 12 assists per game against the mavs this series. The last person to average 25+ points, 10+ assists and 6+ rebounds in a series? Magic Johnson. 

And Nash is like Kidd, Kidd was always a great player with the suns, but when he was traded to the Nets that year and they won all those games, he got serious consideration for MVP, but didnt win, I think he lost to duncan not sure. Same with Nash. Nash has always just been underrated and it took turning a team from winning 29 games to 62 to realize just what he means.
And if you have ever watched a suns game, you would realize that most of amares points comes from really really easy dunks from fast break or pick and roll. I bet you he averages 14-16 points a game from incredibly easy dunks given to him from Nash. JJ averaged 20 points a game, and Q made the most 3s in team history, why? because of Nash's ability to penetrate and dish, and give people the ball in the position to score. Your telling me the most important player on the team with the best record in the league doesnt deserve MVP? your crazy. And Marion, Nash and Amare isnt that much better core than Nash, Dirk and Finley in their prime. And yes the Spurs won without duncan, he had many ankle injuries throughout the year and the last two weeks won without him. What happened with the suns didnt have Nash? we lost almost every game.


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## Ryoga

Delontes Herpes said:


> Anyway, my main beef with Nash winning MVP is that it's such a slap in the face to all of the great PG's before him who never won...Tiny Archibald, John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, and even Jason Kidd. I just don't see how you can say that these guys aren't good enough to win it, but Nash is.


well, I see it in the opposite way, this MVP is a way to prize Stockton and other past pure PGs who were never considered MVP candidates bacause they were doing their job too well: making theit teamates look to good, they had to share with them the credit for the wins.


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