# Mirotic



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Mirotic has just gotten better and better as the season goes on. He just had his best game yet against a tough Memphis defense in 27 pts & 8 rebounds (on only 10 shots to boot), and shooting 6-6 on three pointers. Even Thibodeau has to keep playing him, who has a reputation of not playing rookies. Per 36 minutes he is averaging around 16 pts, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1.5 blocks. 44% FG and 40% 3-pt shooting on the season.

I know there was some doubt about if Mirotic's Euroleague production would translate. Even putting the solid #'s aside, IMO he looks even better with the eye test. Here are some of the "special" qualities I am seeing in this guy that makes me optimistic about his future production:

- *Shooting*: While he does have a slow release, his form is always consistent and has a nice smooth high arcing shot. He has shown some great range beyond NBA 3-pt range. The 40% 3-pt accuracy backs this up. His 6'10+ size and length should ensure he always gets that shot off.

- *Ballhandling*: This is the most surprising thing I've seen. He is an outstanding ballhandler for a big man. He takes opposing bigs off the dribble regularly, and has shown the ability to pull down a rebounder and bring the ball up against mild pressure. 

- *Passing*: Another nice surprise. So far he has shown three great qualities: unselfishness (willing to make the extra pass), creativity, and takes care of the ball/reduces turnovers. This is a special combination for a big man. 

- *Rebounding*: Not his strongest suit since he is skinny but he's better better than I expected at 10 boards per 36. The effort is always there, even if he is overpowered at times. Think if he can put on 10-15 pounds of muscle, he should be able to maintain that pace as minutes increase. 

- *Defense*: Again shows a ton of effort almost all the time. Has shown a knack for contesting shots and help defense in particular. Moves his feet very well laterally. Has good instincts and is clearly a smart player. Most of his problems are just positioning & strength related...both correctable in due time (conditioning & coaching).

- *General energy & athleticism*: I love this guy's motor and enthusiasm. Looks like he loves playing ball, and this is bound to be infectious as his role grows with this team. He is not an explosive leaper or anything, but he is fast in the open floor, shows good agility for a big, and has really nice footwork. 

IMO, Mirotic is no doubt going to be a solid starting PF in this league on day. Hell, he is already a worthy of being first big off the bench and is a regular contributor now. My question now is what's his ceiling...thoughts?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Mirotic has just gotten better and better as the season goes on. He just had his best game yet against a tough Memphis defense in 27 pts & 8 rebounds (on only 10 shots to boot), and shooting 6-6 on three pointers. Even Thibodeau has to keep playing him, who has a reputation of not playing rookies. Per 36 minutes he is averaging around 16 pts, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1.5 blocks. 44% FG and 40% 3-pt shooting on the season.
> 
> I know there was some doubt about if Mirotic's Euroleague production would translate. Even putting the solid #'s aside, IMO he looks even better with the eye test. Here are some of the "special" qualities I am seeing in this guy that makes me optimistic about his future production:
> 
> ...


I hope there's more Nowitzki comparisons like you guys threw out in the past.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Mirotic has just gotten better and better as the season goes on. He just had his best game yet against a tough Memphis defense in 27 pts & 8 rebounds (on only 10 shots to boot), and shooting 6-6 on three pointers. Even Thibodeau has to keep playing him, who has a reputation of not playing rookies. Per 36 minutes he is averaging around 16 pts, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1.5 blocks. 44% FG and 40% 3-pt shooting on the season.
> 
> I know there was some doubt about if Mirotic's Euroleague production would translate. Even putting the solid #'s aside, IMO he looks even better with the eye test. Here are some of the "special" qualities I am seeing in this guy that makes me optimistic about his future production:
> 
> ...


Nice rundown, yodurk...don't strongly disagree with any of it, though you kind of apologize for Mirotic's rebounding. Truth is that Mirotic has proven to be a terrific defensive rebounder (2nd on the team in defensive rebounding%, just behind Gasol and well ahead of both Noah and Gibson).

Any Bulls' fan who is not tickled pink about Mirotic's performance this season just hasn't been paying attention.

His ceiling? Solid starter easy. 2nd or 3rd offensive option on a good team...yeah, I can see that. All star? I wouldn't predict it nor rule it out.

Kid's got game.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Mirotic would be ROY if we didn't have 3 other quality bigs. He can definitely be a 20 and 10 guy later on in his career when he's a full time start.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

R-Star said:


> I hope there's more Nowitzki comparisons like you guys threw out in the past.


Well keep in mind, most of those comments refer to style of play more than how good he is projected to be. Don't equate that to mean someone thinks he will be as good as Dirk. Dirk is an all-time great, that's way too high of a ceiling to expect of anyone. This is just something people do with young players and new prospects. That said, Mirotic is looking like a baller and he's fun as hell to watch.


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## KFitz14 (Jun 3, 2014)

Niko will never be as good of a pure shooter as Dirk, but I think he has better upside as a defender as well as a facilitator off the dribble. His ability to put the ball on the floor and either take it to the hoop or kick it out to a shooter has been the biggest surprise for me. Especially considering how well he takes care of the ball when he does so. That combined with his shooting ability really creates a conundrum for defenders closing out on him.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

mvP to the Wee said:


> Mirotic would be ROY if we didn't have 3 other quality bigs. He can definitely be a 20 and 10 guy later on in his career when he's a full time start.


No. He wouldn't. Hes averaging 8 and 5. Lets not act like hes some all world talent. 

Also, again, no he wouldn't to the second part of your post. There's 3 guys currently averaging a 20 and 10. Lets not act like its some easy feat.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Well keep in mind, most of those comments refer to style of play more than how good he is projected to be. Don't equate that to mean someone thinks he will be as good as Dirk. Dirk is an all-time great, that's way too high of a ceiling to expect of anyone. This is just something people do with young players and new prospects. That said, Mirotic is looking like a baller and he's fun as hell to watch.


That's fair. Thanks for the clarification.


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## KFitz14 (Jun 3, 2014)

R-Star said:


> No. He wouldn't. Hes averaging 8 and 5. Lets not act like hes some all world talent.


He also had a stretch early in the year where he never played over 10 minutes. In a more significant role lately, he is scoring in the double digits nearly every night. In his time on the floor he has played better than any other rookie other than maybe Parker. And Parker is done for the year. He probably won't win ROY because he won't put up the counting stats, but he is playing light-years better than Wiggins *right now*, especially efficiency-wise.

I know some people don't like the advanced stats, but among rookies who have played at least 100 minutes (32 qualifiers), Mirotic is:
-11th in minutes (485 to Wiggins' 766)
-12th in usage % (only 3.2% behind Wiggins, and his high usage is being used as an excuse for his horrendous efficiency)
-1st in PER
-2nd in offensive rating
-3rd in defensive rating
-2nd in TS%
-1st in offensive win shares
-2nd in defensive win shares
-1st in total win shares (Wiggins is 2nd to last, in the negatives)
-1st in box plus/minus
-1st in value over replacement player (Wiggins is last, in the negatives)

In the last 3 categories, he leads 2nd place by a wide margin. It is likely due an advantage both in age and professional experience over the one and done's, but he has been the most effective rookie thus far this season. As far as winning the award, it really depends on how much they weigh playing more and putting up bigger counting stats versus being more effective in the minutes one plays. If they are really looking for the *best* rookie, there should be a balance between the two.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

R-Star said:


> No. He wouldn't. Hes averaging 8 and 5. Lets not act like hes some all world talent.
> 
> Also, again, no he wouldn't to the second part of your post. There's 3 guys currently averaging a 20 and 10. Lets not act like its some easy feat.


He's also not getting the minutes right now because there are guys like Noah, Gasol, and Gibson who also deserve their playing time. In any other situation he's probably starting and running away with the ROY at this point. I get that you really want to see this guy flop because you hate him for whatever reason, but you're going to actually have to watch him play rather than read the ESPN player profile.

And I said he could average 20 and 10, doesn't mean he will. Chances are in his prime he will hover around those numbers. Maybe something like 18 and 8, or 20 and 7, etc.. He's a really good player, the Bulls are fortunate to have him.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

12 points on 2 FGA's last night.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

mvP to the Wee said:


> He's also not getting the minutes right now because there are guys like Noah, Gasol, and Gibson who also deserve their playing time. In any other situation he's probably starting and running away with the ROY at this point. I get that you really want to see this guy flop because you hate him for whatever reason, but you're going to actually have to watch him play rather than read the ESPN player profile.
> 
> And I said he could average 20 and 10, doesn't mean he will. Chances are in his prime he will hover around those numbers. Maybe something like 18 and 8, or 20 and 7, etc.. He's a really good player, the Bulls are fortunate to have him.


If Mirotic starts, his usage rate goes up, thus his efficiency goes down. He also then plays against primarily the other teams starters and not their second unit and chances are they play better defense. 

Andrew Wiggins faces off against the opposite teams best perimeter defender most nights. You compare apples to oranges and try to say Mirotic would run away with ROY. It's complete nonsense.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

R-Star said:


> If Mirotic starts, his usage rate goes up, thus his efficiency goes down. He also then plays against primarily the other teams starters and not their second unit and chances are they play better defense.
> 
> Andrew Wiggins faces off against the opposite teams best perimeter defender most nights. You compare apples to oranges and try to say Mirotic would run away with ROY. It's complete nonsense.


When Mirotic plays in the 4th quarter, he's playing the backup players of other teams? When Mirotic is going up against Zach Randolph, he's going up against the other teams backup?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

mvP to the Wee said:


> When Mirotic plays in the 4th quarter, he's playing the backup players of other teams? When Mirotic is going up against Zach Randolph, he's going up against the other teams backup?


Jesus. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to use Wiggins career high game as the only game we can compare him with. 

"What about when Mirotic played in the 4th quarter!" "What about when he played Randolph?"

What about a few games ago when he played Atlanta, got 3 points and shot 14% from the field? 

Do you see what I did there? Probably not, because you're being that much of a homer.


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## KFitz14 (Jun 3, 2014)

R-Star said:


> If Mirotic starts, his usage rate goes up, thus his efficiency goes down. He also then plays against primarily the other teams starters and not their second unit and chances are they play better defense.
> 
> Andrew Wiggins faces off against the opposite teams best perimeter defender most nights. You compare apples to oranges and try to say Mirotic would run away with ROY. It's complete nonsense.


I hate the assumption that usage and efficiency automatically have a strictly inverse relationship. Yeah, if your usage is insanely high, then you're likely forced into more bad shots and thus efficiency will go down. But when you are talking about small bumps (Niko's 18.2% to Wiggins' 21.3%), there is no way to tell for sure. I would assume Niko is also used to a higher usage rate in Europe, where he was also crazy efficient (but it was a different level of competition, etc.).

Anyway, as pointed out in my earlier post, the difference in usage rates are not big enough to explain the massive gap in efficiency. Niko plays in plenty of hybrid units occasionally against starters of the other team (admittedly I am not sure how much he plays against elite or even good defenders). Even if Wiggins is facing elite defenders every minute he is on the floor, his offensive numbers are terrible. Obviously the injuries for Minnesota do not help, but when they start getting people back, Wiggins' offensive role will likely decrease to the point where his usage is around Niko's, and I don't see his efficiency making the huge leap to match.

No one is saying Mirotic runs away with the award, as the minutes played and the perception that he is just riding along as a role player on a good team will weigh him down. However, there is no disputing that he has played better than Wiggins (or any other remaining contenders for ROY) thus far.

If he finishes the season averaging something like 10/6 on similar efficiency in ~20 minutes per game, I think he should win it over Wiggins unless the latter starts playing much better. Obviously I am biased, but the numbers back that choice up. If you give it to Wiggins as poorly as he has played, you are basically saying the award is the rookie who plays the biggest role instead of the rookie who played the best and contributed most to his team's success.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

R-Star said:


> Jesus. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to use Wiggins career high game as the only game we can compare him with.
> 
> "What about when Mirotic played in the 4th quarter!" "What about when he played Randolph?"
> 
> ...


You said he puts up good numbers when going up against backups, I just proved that he put up good numbers while going up against good players. Career games or not.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

mvP to the Wee said:


> You said he puts up good numbers when going up against backups, I just proved that he put up good numbers while going up against good players. Career games or not.


You think bringing up 1 game against Memphis proves hes the rookie of the year and better than Wiggins. 

That's cute.


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## Fergus (Oct 2, 2002)

Can we all at least agree that Mirotic is playing well and may end up being a very valuable member of this Bulls team?


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## KFitz14 (Jun 3, 2014)

Fergus said:


> Can we all at least agree that Mirotic is playing well and may end up being a very valuable member of this Bulls team?


Very much this. The Bulls might run into a problem of too much talent in the front court. As Niko develops they might end up with 4 starting caliber (at least) big men with only so many minutes to go around, unless Thibs gets creative and give Niko some minutes at the 3, which I doubt.

I would say they should trade someone for a wing, but I like all 4 of them and none of them are particularly redundant.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

R-Star said:


> You think bringing up 1 game against Memphis proves hes the rookie of the year and better than Wiggins.
> 
> That's cute.


And again a decent game last night where he was up against starting PF Nene. It must suck for you seeing him do well, as well as having to support that abortion of a team known as the Indiana Pacers.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Fergus said:


> Can we all at least agree that Mirotic is playing well and may end up being a very valuable member of this Bulls team?


I can 100% agree to that. He's already a solid pro and should be in the league for a long time.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

mvP to the Wee said:


> And again a decent game last night where he was up against starting PF Nene. It must suck for you seeing him do well, as well as having to support that abortion of a team known as the Indiana Pacers.


Why would it suck for me to see him doing well? And what does my personal team of choice have to do with not agreeing that Mirotic should run away with the ROY award?

You debate like a 6 year old.


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## Fergus (Oct 2, 2002)

KFitz14 said:


> Very much this. The Bulls might run into a problem of too much talent in the front court. As Niko develops they might end up with 4 starting caliber (at least) big men with only so many minutes to go around, unless Thibs gets creative and give Niko some minutes at the 3, which I doubt.
> 
> I would say they should trade someone for a wing, but I like all 4 of them and none of them are particularly redundant.


I am fine with the added depth. It should allow the Bulls to give players like Noah a lot more rest than in recent years. I really think this will pay off in the playoffs, when the Bulls can field 4 quality big men (plus Nazr).


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I saw someone in the media this past week (sorry, can't remember who) say that Mirotic is the only rookie with an above average Player Efficiency Rating (PER). His PER is around 18 which is terrific for any player, let alone a rookie. It makes sense, the guy is average 16 & 10 per 36 minutes, along with high percentages and low turnovers; that is a recipe for a good PER. No reason to think most of that performance wouldn't extrapolate with bigger minutes. Remember he is only 23 years old and has a skinny frame that can only get stronger. If that happens at all, he is in good position to maintain this efficiency with increased minutes. So I have to agree he would be a good bet for ROY frontrunner if he were playing 30+ minutes, and certainly on paper and with the eye test looks like he could be an all-star caliber player at some point in his career. See post #1 in this thread for why I believe that...this guy has just a really diverse and well rounded game.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

yodurk said:


> I saw someone in the media this past week (sorry, can't remember who) say that Mirotic is the only rookie with an above average Player Efficiency Rating (PER). His PER is around 18 which is terrific for any player, let alone a rookie. It makes sense, the guy is average 16 & 10 per 36 minutes, along with high percentages and low turnovers; that is a recipe for a good PER. No reason to think most of that performance wouldn't extrapolate with bigger minutes. Remember he is only 23 years old and has a skinny frame that can only get stronger. If that happens at all, he is in good position to maintain this efficiency with increased minutes. So I have to agree he would be a good bet for ROY frontrunner if he were playing 30+ minutes, and certainly on paper and with the eye test looks like he could be an all-star caliber player at some point in his career. See post #1 in this thread for why I believe that...this guy has just a really diverse and well rounded game.


The operative point of your post is that he is indeed 23, and he does indeed play on the bench for arguably one of the most stacked teams in the league. 

Wiggins and Parker are 19 year olds starting for bottom feeders. 

Again, we're comparing apples to oranges. 

Kevin Love is 26. That's an equivalent age difference to what you guys are showing. Just take that into account when you're anointing Mirotic to be an allstar and ROY front runner.

You guys do this with every single rookie. I mean just as far back as last year how much Tony Snell love was flowing on your side of the forum? You guys are right in your predictions about 10% of the time.


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

Interesting debate. We all value our team more than others. I love Mirotic's game so far. The more i watch his game the more i see the similarities between him and Dirk. Dirk was and will likely be the better shooter. However, Mitotic is not too shabby. His release is not as quick, but it takes time. Rebounding and defensive IQ, i think Mirotic is probably better than Dirk in Dirk's first year already.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

R-Star said:


> The operative point of your post is that he is indeed 23, and he does indeed play on the bench for arguably one of the most stacked teams in the league.
> 
> Wiggins and Parker are 19 year olds starting for bottom feeders.
> 
> ...


Age does not play a role in ROY voting


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

He's playing very well - going to be tough for him to maintain the production though, as during the playoffs the rotation will shorten and I guarantee you Noah, Gasol and Gibson will be getting those minutes.

Having said that, the Wolves should've had this guy right? Draft day deal? He sure would be a handy 4 man on that team right now...


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Age has no bearing on the ROY argument. He either is best rookie or isn't. As for all-star argument...the numbers and eye test imply he could be one day. And so what, so can a lot of guys in this league...nobody is anointing anything yet. And I call BS on anyone saying Tony Snell was a future all-star. The nicest thing said about Snell is he could be a solid 3 and D guy, and has a lot of untapped talent. "Could be" does not equal "is".


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Wade County said:


> He's playing very well - going to be tough for him to maintain the production though, as during the playoffs the rotation will shorten and I guarantee you Noah, Gasol and Gibson will be getting those minutes.
> 
> Having said that, the Wolves should've had this guy right? Draft day deal? He sure would be a handy 4 man on that team right now...


Well they made the deal because they knew the Bulls wanted him, not because they picked him and liked the Bulls offer after. Supposedly OKC was ready to draft him, which prompted the Bulls to trade up to get him.

As for minutes, I still see him getting time in the playoffs. We worked Noah, Gibson, Boozer, Asik during our ECF run. Thibs just needs to run with the hot hands every 4th quarter.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

R-Star said:


> The operative point of your post is that he is indeed 23, and he does indeed play on the bench for arguably one of the most stacked teams in the league.
> 
> Wiggins and Parker are 19 year olds starting for bottom feeders.
> 
> ...



Thanks for stopping by with your criticisms of our board and misunderstanding of how the ROY award works!


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Thanks for stopping by with your criticisms of our board and misunderstanding of how the ROY award works!


Misunderstanding how it works? ROY is a player award, not team award.

Feel free to let me know the last ROY who averaged 8 and 5. 

Honestly, show me the player who won ROY with stats close to that. 

Thanks in advance,

R-Star


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

go away.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Though he's right, you can't really win ROY with 8 and 5.


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## KFitz14 (Jun 3, 2014)

R-Star said:


> Feel free to let me know the last ROY who averaged 8 and 5.
> 
> Honestly, show me the player who won ROY with stats close to that.


Not many people win it with 13 and 4 either, especially not while shooting the ball as bad as Wiggins has. It is going to be another weak year (at least as far as counting stats go) either way. At least MCW put up huge numbers while being horribly inefficient on a bad team last year.

Wiggins probably wins barring injury, increased playing time for Nikola, or someone else coming out of the woodwork. Nikola has still played way better this year, and whether he wins the award or not will not take away from the season he has had/will continue to have.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

KFitz14 said:


> Not many people win it with 13 and 4 either, especially not while shooting the ball as bad as Wiggins has. It is going to be another weak year (at least as far as counting stats go) either way. At least MCW put up huge numbers while being horribly inefficient on a bad team last year.
> 
> Wiggins probably wins barring injury, increased playing time for Nikola, or someone else coming out of the woodwork. Nikola has still played way better this year, and whether he wins the award or not will not take away from the season he has had/will continue to have.


You seem to be coming up with excuses for Nikolas lack of stats, all while refusing to acknowledge why Wiggins is clearly in a worse situation as far as putting up efficiency stats.

Look, I think Mirotic is a hell of a pick up for the Bulls. I just find it odd that some of you feel the need to act like he'll have a better career than Wiggins, a player 4 years his junior. We just had this discussion a few months back when some Bulls fans were arguing that Mirotic was a better trade chip than Wiggins, which is as laughable now as it was back then.


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## KFitz14 (Jun 3, 2014)

R-Star said:


> You seem to be coming up with excuses for Nikolas lack of stats, all while refusing to acknowledge why Wiggins is clearly in a worse situation as far as putting up efficiency stats.


I am aware of Wiggins' tough situation, especially at his young age, but many top ROY candidates before him have been put in tough situations too and played much better (thus far...Wiggins certainly has time to improve even within this season). Mirotic's per 36 stats are better than Wiggins' across the board. I get that it is easier for him coming of the bench for a good team against other teams' benches, but he has played really really well, whether he wins the award or not.


R-Star said:


> Look, I think Mirotic is a hell of a pick up for the Bulls. I just find it odd that some of you feel the need to act like he'll have a better career than Wiggins, a player 4 years his junior.


Who said this?

I'm just talking about performances this year. There is no way to tell this early, but Wiggins almost certainly has the higher ceiling. I think Mirotic has the higher floor.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

KFitz14 said:


> I am aware of Wiggins' tough situation, especially at his young age, but many top ROY candidates before him have been put in tough situations too and played much better (thus far...Wiggins certainly has time to improve even within this season). Mirotic's per 36 stats are better than Wiggins' across the board. I get that it is easier for him coming of the bench for a good team against other teams' benches, but he has played really really well, whether he wins the award or not.
> 
> Who said this?
> 
> I'm just talking about performances this year. There is no way to tell this early, but Wiggins almost certainly has the higher ceiling. I think Mirotic has the higher floor.


As far as saying Mirotic has played really really well, I agree 100%. I also agree that while Wiggins ceiling is higher, Mirotics floor is higher than Wiggins. Mirotic looks like he'll have a career as a solid pro on winning teams, while Wiggins has a long way to go to be the player he has the potential to be. 

With regards to "who said this"? I honestly don't remember. It was when there was speculation that Chicago should get in the Love trade game, and a poster insisted Mirotic had more trade value at the time than Wiggins. Don't recall which poster.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

R-Star, maybe I misread a few posts, but I thought the claim was that Mirotic would be the ROY frontrunner with more minutes, not that he IS the frontrunner. Wiggins is IMO clearly the frontrunner at the moment, but I also have to agree Mirotic has been the best performer in the minutes he has played. Wiggins has just had more playing opportunity. This situation is not uncommon though, we see alot of young talents putting up #'s on bad teams who go on to win ROY, while mature players (Euros, 4-yr college stars) get a smaller more efficient role on a winning team, yet do not win ROY.

Also do not assume that touting Mirotic's talents means we (or at least I) think he will be better than Wiggins. I do think Mirotic is a more useful contributor today, but I personally think Wiggins is going to a stud, annual all-star for most of his career, and will definitely be more valuable than Mirotic. Both guys are going to be damn good.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Misunderstanding how it works? ROY is a player award, not team award.
> 
> Feel free to let me know the last ROY who averaged 8 and 5.
> 
> ...



Again, please leave.

My quibble was not about stats. It was about you noting his age difference with Wiggins, which is irrelevant to the discussion of who could win ROY.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

R-Star said:


> With regards to "who said this"? I honestly don't remember. It was when there was speculation that Chicago should get in the Love trade game, and a poster insisted Mirotic had more trade value at the time than Wiggins. Don't recall which poster.


I don't recall anyone claiming Mirotic was more valuable than Wiggins, but it is entirely possible I (and others here) said Mirotic over the summer had the value of a top 5 draft pick in this past draft. I stand by that comment and that appears to be a fair comment even today. It wasn't exactly an earth shattering prediction though, several draft coverage outlets were making the same claim.

Another possible comment was that Mirotic + other Bulls assets (say, Taj Gibson) might've been more valuable to Minnesota than Wiggins + other Cavs assets. In other words, Mirotic and Wiggins were close enough in value that the "sweetners" could tilt the trade package in the Bulls favor. Not sure I agree with that necessarily but it's not as absurd as Mirotic being flat out more valuable than Wiggins.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

yodurk said:


> I don't recall anyone claiming Mirotic was more valuable than Wiggins, but it is entirely possible I (and others here) said Mirotic over the summer had the value of a top 5 draft pick in this past draft. I stand by that comment and that appears to be a fair comment even today. It wasn't exactly an earth shattering prediction though, several draft coverage outlets were making the same claim.
> 
> Another possible comment was that Mirotic + other Bulls assets (say, Taj Gibson) might've been more valuable to Minnesota than Wiggins + other Cavs assets. In other words, Mirotic and Wiggins were close enough in value that the "sweetners" could tilt the trade package in the Bulls favor. Not sure I agree with that necessarily but it's not as absurd as Mirotic being flat out more valuable than Wiggins.


It was argued in the thread that since Mirotic would be seen as a more polished and NBA ready prospect, a team like the Wolves who would be desperate for such players could arguably value Mirotic over Wiggins.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

R-Star said:


> It was argued in the thread that since Mirotic would be seen as a more polished and NBA ready prospect, a team like the Wolves who would be desperate for such players could arguably value Mirotic over Wiggins.



I think you're referring to (and, of course, mischaracterizing) my posts in this thread:

http://www.basketballforum.com/chic...n-windhorst-bulls-making-push-kevin-love.html

There was a Chris Sheridan report during the Love thing that the Bulls might have a more appealing offer than the Cavs, because Minny was reluctant to continue a long-term rebuild and might prefer a more win-now approach. In any event, I argued in that thread that the gap between Mirotic and Wiggins as NBA prospects might not be as vast a chasm as people were assuming. I did not argue that Mirotic was the better trade chip, as you misrepresented in this thread. The position I actually took is a position I would stand by. Mirotic has certainly outperformed Mirotic on a per-minute basis, and though Wiggins has shown real flashes of talent, he's putting up only ok numbers and shooting under 40%.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> I think you're referring to my posts in this thread:
> 
> http://www.basketballforum.com/chic...n-windhorst-bulls-making-push-kevin-love.html
> 
> There was a Chris Sheridan report during the Love thing that the Bulls might have a more appealing offer than the Cavs, because Minny was reluctant to continue a long-term rebuild and might prefer a more win-now approach. In any event, I argued in that thread that the gap between Mirotic and Wiggins as NBA prospects might not be as vast a chasm as people were assuming. That is a position I would stand by. Mirotic has certainly outperformed Mirotic on a per-minute basis, and though Wiggins has shown real flashes of talent, he's putting up only ok numbers and shooting under 40%.


He's a 19 year old rookie playing first option and thus getting defenses planned around him. Not the same as being a skilled big man off the bench. 

That being said, I agree Mirotic is a great rookie and a real steal for the Bulls, so this thread has been derailed enough by the likes of me. 

Enjoy your season. I have the Bulls as favorites to win it all this year if Rose has a healthy year (knock on wood).


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

R-Star said:


> He's a 19 year old rookie playing first option and thus getting defenses planned around him. Not the same as being a skilled big man off the bench.
> 
> That being said, I agree Mirotic is a great rookie and a real steal for the Bulls, so this thread has been derailed enough by the likes of me.
> 
> Enjoy your season. I have the Bulls as favorites to win it all this year if Rose has a healthy year (knock on wood).



I agree the roles are different, but Wiggins has the superior opportunity to accrue stats as the lead dog on a bad team.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> I agree the roles are different, but Wiggins has the superior opportunity to accrue stats as the lead dog on a bad team.


Agreed. But to accrue them facing far tougher defense and playing a far more demanding and thus less efficient by design offensive role. 

Put Wiggins back on the Cavs and he's scoring at a much high efficiency as he would be the 4th or 5th scoring option at best rather than being first on Minnesota. 

That's all I'm trying to say.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I am liking that Thibodeau hasn't been afraid to play Mirotic at SF. That kills 2 birds with 1 stone...gets Mirotic more minutes and gives us a little more depth on the wing.

It appears he struggled a bit initially and he probably will against some matchups, but overall I think it has some benefits. Overall he is mobile enough to keep up with alot of SFs in this league, as long as it's not the star level variety. Can't argue with the results last night against Houston...27 minutes, 17 points, 8 rebounds. And some really timely baskets in crunch time.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

yodurk said:


> I am liking that Thibodeau hasn't been afraid to play Mirotic at SF. That kills 2 birds with 1 stone...gets Mirotic more minutes and gives us a little more depth on the wing.
> 
> It appears he struggled a bit initially and he probably will against some matchups, but overall I think it has some benefits. Overall he is mobile enough to keep up with alot of SFs in this league, as long as it's not the star level variety. Can't argue with the results last night against Houston...27 minutes, 17 points, 8 rebounds. And some really timely baskets in crunch time.



I can't tell whether this could be an everyday thing or if it'll just be matchup-dependent, but given the glut of talent at 4-5 and dearth of same at the 3, I think it's a great idea in order to balance out the lineup. It certainly worked again yesterday.


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## KFitz14 (Jun 3, 2014)

He can guard spot-up shooters. He has the quickness and length to close out effectively. Ariza had at least a couple of misses yesterday that he contested well. The nice thing is that Jimmy can take LeBron/Durant/other guys who play off the dribble and Niko could *maybe* even guard less mobile 2s for a short stretch (I'm thinking Mike Miller/James Jones types here). One situation that might not work defensively with him at the 3 is having to chase a guy like Korver around through multiple screens.

I think now that he tried it and it worked pretty well, Thibs is going to keep that option open. It was telling that Snell didn't play at all yesterday even with Dunleavy out when he had been playing almost every game and doing a (slightly) better job lately. It's also hard to say how McDermott fits into all of this when he gets back. I feel like he'll play at least a little, but he might have a short leash, which is probably a new experience for him.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

He's averaging 11/5.3/1.1 in his last 10 games with 46/44/76 shooting percentages. Really starting to round into NBA form now.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

RollWithEm said:


> He's averaging 11/5.3/1.1 in his last 10 games with 46/44/76 shooting percentages. Really starting to round into NBA form now.


Yes, and I also find it encouraging that Mirotic has basically found a role with this team that closely resembles his role with Real Madrid the past few years. I believe that is helping his comfort level while adapting to the NBA.

One of my gripes with Thibodeau the first 10-15 games was he kept putting Mirotic out there with McDermott and Brooks, 1 is a rookie and the other was a new addition who is a shoot first PG. The results were pretty awful; our bench unit was getting massacred. That has pretty much been corrected now.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Mirotic has hit the rookie wall and looks like Wiggins will run away with the ROY now. Nurkic may surpass Miro as well


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

mvP to the Wee said:


> Mirotic has hit the rookie wall and looks like Wiggins will run away with the ROY now. Nurkic may surpass Miro as well


I haven't seen any Bulls games over the past couple weeks. Is he actually visibly playing worse out there, or is it just because of the limited minutes he's been getting?


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

R-Star said:


> I haven't seen any Bulls games over the past couple weeks. Is he actually visibly playing worse out there, or is it just because of the limited minutes he's been getting?


His shot is just completely off right now, whether he's open or not


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

mvP to the Wee said:


> His shot is just completely off right now, whether he's open or not


Might almost be a blessing to get this out of his system and figured out before the playoffs.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

R-Star said:


> Might almost be a blessing to get this out of his system and figured out before the playoffs.


It's pretty standard IMO. All rookies end up hitting the rookie wall. I think Nurkic is hitting it at the moment too. Forgot how long they stay in this funk but it's usually about 2 weeks I think.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

R-Star said:


> I haven't seen any Bulls games over the past couple weeks. Is he actually visibly playing worse out there, or is it just because of the limited minutes he's been getting?


IMO, it's a little of both. 

From what I have seen, teams are already scouting him better, such as closing out quicker on his 3-pt shot and not falling for his pump fake. And like someone else said, he has gone a little cold with his shot even when open, though certainly the 2 can be related if it's a lack of rhythm thing.

The timing of this wasn't great for him b/c we've just now gotten all 3 of our other big men back (Gasol, Noah, Gibson), and those guys are simply getting the lion's share of minutes. Thibodeau also is trying to fix our broken defense by playing Tony Snell at SF who is our best available defender there (Butler is at SG and Dunleavy injured). So the Mirotic at SF experiment seems to be either cancelled or on hold until the team's defense improves. 

I know why Thibodeau is doing all this, but hopefully it's all temporary until the Bulls get back on track. I'd love to see Gasol & Noah's minutes come down a bit (maybe Noah at 28 min/game and Gasol at 28-30), while letting Mirotic take those minutes. His spacing and mobility is a really nice look to have off the bench when used properly.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

He's on fire again. This is just a player that does so much better when he is given big minutes.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

^ He was 5/15 and 2/9 from 3pt range. 'Fire' might be a stretch.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Porn Player said:


> ^ He was 5/15 and 2/9 from 3pt range. 'Fire' might be a stretch.


25 points on 15 shots is all that matters...that is excellent efficiency.

Drawing fouls is a talent in and of itself that generates easy points. Mirotic clearly is very good at it. I think this is why the Mirotic at SF experiment had to end ultimately, he simply doesn't draw fouls when SFs are guarding him, they are too quick to get around. Whereas he frequently blows by opposing big men off the dribble and that's why he is getting to the free throw line so much. Mirotic's mismatch potential at PF is arguably the biggest thing that has allowed him to excel at times. He is faster and more offensively skilled than most of his opposing bigs. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Mirotic has struggled the most when he is relegated to just standing around on the perimeter trying to get an open 3-pt shot. His release is too slow and he is too hesitant with his shot to be that kind of player, even though he is a very good shooter. He's at his best when he is moving and cutting with another big man trying to keep up.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Porn Player said:


> ^ He was 5/15 and 2/9 from 3pt range. 'Fire' might be a stretch.


But his averages over the last 3 are very nice. And rough shooting game? Yes, but he found a way to be efficient and he hit his shots at the end. That's what good players do, they find other ways to contribute positively offensively when the shot isn't falling.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Is Mirotic better than Jordan? Discuss.


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## BobStackhouse42 (Oct 7, 2010)

mvP to the Wee said:


> Is Mirotic better than Jordan? Discuss.


DeAndre Jordan? No. Not quite yet.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

BobStackhouse42 said:


> DeAndre Jordan? No. Not quite yet.


Michael Jordan.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

NIIIIIIIIIIIIKOOOOOOOLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

If he keeps this up @Diable might even return to the site.


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## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

I would trade JV for him in a second


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Mirotic has been just tearing it up lately. He is peaking at the right time, just when we needed him most with guys being out, and with playoffs right around the corner. Really not sure where we'd be without him over the past 2 months.

He is the type of guy who could be an X-factor for this team in the playoffs, and could tip the scales in our favor over a 7-game series if he is playing well...having a guy like him who can generate offense and pose a mismatch can be huge.


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## BenDengGo (Feb 1, 2004)

the bulls dodged a bullet when they declined to trade for melo/love.

imagine if they had traded mirotic and butler...

mirotic in march has been awesome.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

No


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Jeff Mangurten @JeffGurt

Niko Mirotic has scored 738 points this season, the most by a Bulls rookie since Derrick Rose (1361).


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

BenDengGo said:


> the bulls dodged a bullet when they declined to trade for melo/love.
> 
> imagine if they had traded mirotic and butler...
> 
> mirotic in march has been awesome.


Sure Mirotic and Butler are the safer bet longterm, but don't underestimate how good this team could have been with Melo on it.


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## Fergus (Oct 2, 2002)

RollWithEm said:


> Sure Mirotic and Butler are the safer bet longterm, but don't underestimate how good this team could have been with Melo on it.


I think the assumption was the Melo would still have ended up hurt and on injured reserve.

In any case, I am glad the Bulls did not do the trade.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Fergus said:


> I think the assumption was the Melo would still have ended up hurt and on injured reserve.
> 
> In any case, I am glad the Bulls did not do the trade.



Right. That is the assumption. And with Melo's huge contract, injury history, age, etc., it's clear the Bulls dodged a bullet.


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