# "An American hero" - Toni Smith



## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/wiley/030228.html









Quiet protest: Toni Smith turns her back to the flag as the pregame anthem is played.


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>WonderPelekanos</b>!
> http://espn.go.com/page2/s/wiley/030228.html
> 
> 
> ...


Unfortunatelly some american guys of this board failed to see the heroism of her act and critisized her in an (at least) unfair way. At least there are some people that can think rationally and refuse to be part of the "mainstream" as it is defined by some.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

Congrats Toni, I'm with you.
We don't need anymore wars. 
Especially when the wars are all about money (who will get the oil and how we will keep the weapon industry running).


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

All I have to say is that she is not a good american. (see pic)


OK, that was a bit nasty.........


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

lol.
:laugh: 

Anyway, I was watching a documentary today about the resistance of the american people to the war and I'm glad not all americans are buying Bush's propaganda.
My brother who lives in Washington is telling me though that the american media are trying to create an anti-european centiment, mainly against France and Germany, the two biggest european powers that are against the war.
The good thing is that were peaceful marches in Washington against the war in Iraq.
I was listening to Bush the other day on tv saying "we (the americans) are the best people in the world, the best nation in the world etc. etc. and I was shaking my head in despair. That cowboy looked just like Hitler when he was saying those things. 
The US deserve a better president than cowboy George.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>qwertyu</b>!
> I'm glad not all americans are buying Bush's propaganda.


Uh, not many people are buying Bush's crap, and NO ONE wants to go to war.


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

*Geography? Wha'z that?*

Check the photo below and please tell me.....If the americans think that Switzerland lies where it is shown in the photo, then WHO THE HELL ARE THEY GOING TO BOMB IN A FEW DAYS???


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## JoeF (Jul 16, 2002)

I don't see anything particularily heroic in her actions. I think the college basketball court is an inappropriate place for a antiwar statements.
Antiwar statements without solutions are nothing more than idealogical garbage. When I hear a solution that guarantees no war, no Nuclear, Chemical and Biological weapons for Iraq and helps the Iraqi people I will consider it heroic. All I hear and see are two options so far, war or continue on the 12+ year process of international pressure and inspections. If it hasn't resolved the solution in 12+ years how is going to ever resolve the problem? Without new ideas or option I see little chance for anything other than war. I don't want to face a N. Korea type problem 10 years from now because we failed to act today. If it doesn't happen now it will simply be a more horrific war in the future.


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## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

Ideological garbage is the whole American policy, not the great gesture of this girl. 
So your options are "war or continue on the 12+ year process of international pressure": well, is it the American thinking? The process of international pressure has made than one milion deaths in Iraq, most of all children, an amount that Saddam Hussein would have not been able to do in 200 years of presidency. 
Why that? Everyone knows the answer. What America wants to sell to the world, "we are the bulwark of freedom", is the mask of the American imperialism. 
The States need Iraq for it oil, because everyone knows the American reserves are not infinite and most of all the American oil is dirty: to use it a desulphuration is necessary. And at the end it's too much complicated and expensive. It's much better to bomb Iraq. 
Iraq, and why not Israel? Isn't the Israeli regime a fascist? Of course it's, based on the apartheid against the Palestinians. What are the differences between Sabra and Chatila (ask to Mr. Sharon) and the attacks to the Kurds in Northern Iraq? Are there differences? No. 
Let's bomb Israel too, "because this country rapresents a danger for the world peace and freedom too". Why Israel can have the atomic bomb and Iraq no? Just asking. 

I forgot, stop with this boring victism after the 11 of September. It's really pathetic. How long should we enjoy the World Tour of the firefighters of N.Y.C.? Are they like Sting or Bruce Springsteen... the flag of Ground Zero carried to the Olympic Games (where no other symbols then the 5 Circles and the flags of the countries, can't be shown. And the flag of Ground Zero doesn't rapresent the United States, but the tears, the martyrdom, all this crap the US are selling to the world, "or with us, or with the terrorists")... really, it's boring. 
Are there differences between the conditions of prisoners in Guantanamo and the political prisoners of Saddam Hussein? I don't think. I'd prefer to stay in Cuba in a Fidel Castro's jail as dissident than in Guantanamo after having been captured in Afghanistan. 
And wake up, Americans: do you really think the 11 of September was coming from abroad? Don't make me laugh.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: Geography? Wha'z that?*



> Originally posted by <b>Zelena Hracka</b>!
> Check the photo below and please tell me.....If the americans think that Switzerland lies where it is shown in the photo, then WHO THE HELL ARE THEY GOING TO BOMB IN A FEW DAYS???


hahahaha :laugh: 

which country is that Zelena? Former Czechoslovakia? hahaha

and we're talking about freaking CNN!!! (the most reliable news source in America). I wonder if they fired whoever made that map :laugh: 

Anywayz, have you seen "Bowling for Columbine"? I remember Michael Moore (the director) was interviewing this idiot who was against gun-control and Moore asked him what his opinion was about Gandhi and his ideology.. And he didn't even know who Gandhi was!! 

Well this is if not the most ridiculous, one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. CNN should shut down after that because it has lost all the credibility it had. Did CNN even apologize for this?


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## JoeF (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>WonderPelekanos</b>!
> Ideological garbage is the whole American policy, not the great gesture of this girl.
> So your options are "war or continue on the 12+ year process of international pressure": well, is it the American thinking?


What are the other options? I am all for a peaceful resolution. I just don't see any other options.


> The process of international pressure has made than one milion deaths in Iraq, most of all children, an amount that Saddam Hussein would have not been able to do in 200 years of presidency.


Can't he sell oil for humanitarian aid I.E food and medicine? 1 million is way above the estimates that opponents of UN sanctions in the US quote. Do you have a link? No one knows for sure how many Kurds he has killed but if unchecked it wouldn't have taken him long to get to 1 million. If you count Kurds who died from lack of food and medicine Saddam is probably well over a million now.


> Iraq, and why not Israel? Isn't the Israeli regime a fascist? Of course it's, based on the apartheid against the Palestinians. What are the differences between Sabra and Chatila (ask to Mr. Sharon) and the attacks to the Kurds in Northern Iraq? Are there differences? No.


I don't know much about Sabra and Chatila so I don't know how they compare to the Kurdish situation. What about Palestinians attacks on Israeli civilians? Is there a difference? How many attacks from each side are against military targets and how many are on strictly civilian targets. My perception is Israeli attacks are usually against military targets like leaders of Hamas and other groups. There are usually civilian casualties but the civilians aren't the actual target. Many Palestinian attacks are against civilians. The civilians are the actual target not just someone who was in the wrong place. As far as comparing the Kurds and the Palestinians, do the Kurds go into Bagdad and blow up Iraqi civilians on a regular basis just because they are Iraqi and not Kurdish? Do the Kurds want to completely destroy all Iraqis or do they simply want an autonomous homeland? Maybe the press is not reporting Kurdish terrorism but I don't hear much about it.
Another question, I know this won't happen but if Israel stopped all military action against the Palestinians, eliminated their military, granted the Palestinians citizenship and the exact same rights that all Israelis have would the violence stop? I don't believe the Palestinians would stop. I guess I am a pessimist or maybe I am misinformed but I think Israel and the Palestinians will continue to fight until one group is succeeds in genocide. 


> Let's bomb Israel too, "because this country rapresents a danger for the world peace and freedom too". Why Israel can have the atomic bomb and Iraq no? Just asking.


I would prefer that they didn't have nuclear weapons. In fact I think I would prefer that no one has them. Whether it is misguided or not we trust Israel more than Iraq.



> I forgot, stop with this boring victism after the 11 of September. It's really pathetic. How long should we enjoy the World Tour of the firefighters of N.Y.C.? Are they like Sting or Bruce Springsteen... the flag of Ground Zero carried to the Olympic Games (where no other symbols then the 5 Circles and the flags of the countries, can't be shown. And the flag of Ground Zero doesn't rapresent the United States, but the tears, the martyrdom, all this crap the US are selling to the world, "or with us, or with the terrorists")... really, it's boring.
> Are there differences between the conditions of prisoners in Guantanamo and the political prisoners of Saddam Hussein? I don't think. I'd prefer to stay in Cuba in a Fidel Castro's jail as dissident than in Guantanamo after having been captured in Afghanistan.
> And wake up, Americans: do you really think the 11 of September was coming from abroad? Don't make me laugh.


I mentioned nothing of 9/11 and I am not convinced that Iraq and 9/11 are related. They could be but I haven't seen any evidence. Are you saying that 9/11 was carried out by Americans or are you saying we caused 9/11? I haven't seen any of the three places but I think you would get better treatment in Guantanamo Bay. I doubt that they are being starved, beaten or killed. I don't know about Cuban and Iraqi prisons but I have more confidence in the US one.


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## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

I want coherence. Have the States coherence? No. Not at all. For example you're talking about the Kurds (and the US governments too made that, applying the No-Fly-Zone in the Northern Iraq) but... 
but why there's a N.F.Z. and an imminent war in Iraq, while at the same time USA still help Turkey in a military way? Are Turks doing something different than Iraqis in Kurdistan? I don't think so. 
And I don't think that all the other recent crimes committed by Turks (Cyprus, Alevis, Kurdistan) have never opened the eyes to the American government? 
Why that? Because Turkey is the Middle East aircraft carrier of the United States, and America doesn't want to lose this wagging allied. It's difficult to find a criminal country like Turkey in the World, but U.S.A. still support it, giving loans that will never be payed by Turks (I.M.F.). 
Yes, Israel. The good brother of Middle East. You're talking about the attacks of kamikazes against civilians. Right, you're right. Have you ever tried to understand why that happens? 
Let's dismantle the colonies in the Palestinian Territories.
Let's give half Jerusalem (El-Quds) to Palestinians. 
Let's stop to steal lands to the Palestinians. 
And you'll see the attacks will finish. 
Last night after the attack in Haifa the Zionist army in a night of terror killed about 15 Palestinians: a tank shoted against crowd. Isn't it terrorism? Or are they civilian casualties in the long walk till the total freedom, ah? For me it's pure nazism, apartheid. Shouldn't the States bomb this country. Yes, of course, following the reasoning Iraq-Kurds... 
Will we see a "war for peace" against Israel or Turkey? Ohhohohohohoh... 

Should I continue? Yes, why not. 
USA and Chile. Was it a problem in the South America a democratic and socialist regime with Salvador Allende... a big problem. Who was back the putsch against Allende? Have you ever read something about Chile? About the stadiums transformed in concentration camps? This is the great freedom carried there by the United States. 
What about the freedom in Kosovo? I guess that no-one in the States know where Kosovo is, and what Kosovo was. Everyone knew what was happening in Kosovo, listening what was broadcasted by CNN... haha. Well, it has presented like a terrific genocide against the Albanian population of the region, when it was not. At all. The massacre of Racak, the spark, has never happened. To all the World has been told those victims were poor Albanian civilians killed by Serbs, while they were UCK soldiers (armed by the States and by Turkey, in the case you don't know that, as I guess). Then the big exodus of the Albanians from the region started when NATO came to bomb Yugoslavia, before the situation was hot but not tragic. 
And if you go to read a good book, written by a neutral historian, you'll discover something you can't imagine: Albanians started provocations and attacks against the Serb population in Kosovo already after the World War II. This is history. 
And now? Do you know which kind of freedom there's now in Kosovo? The ethnical cleanship has really started and there are not anymore Serbs in the region. Not only: when Kosovo was under the Serbian control, all the minorities were protected: Turks, Roms, Albanians, Vardarians, Bosniaks (and not Bosnians) could live without problems there. Now in Kosovo there are only Albanians. Muslim Albanians, because the Orthodox ones have many problems too. 

Proud America, eh? Is this "freedom" for you? 



Sabra and Chatila: 
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/Fisk_Sabra.html

Guantanamo: 
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0111-05.htm
http://www.arabia.com/news/article/english/0,11827,257053,00.html
http://cisar.org/usa/021014a.htm


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

That is the main problem with the Americans. They think they are informed objectively by their media and they fail to aknowledge athat their media are as biased as those in every other county in the world. 

Has anyone ever mentioned, in CNN for example, the atrocities of Turks in the part of Kurdistan they opperate? No! Has anyone mentioned the genocides commited by them (in the not so far past)? No. Have your media ever mantioned anything about similar to Iraq regimes that exist all over the world. No. 

The media are picky to what they report so as to match their own, and their government's, interests.

I'd like to write much more about this, but I lack the time. Maybe some other time. 

PS: You trust Israel? 

Define, "trust". 

If I had to refrase that, I would have said that....you ARE Isreal. If you know what I mean.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

What's even funnier is that the political situation in many countries that are America's allies, is just as bad if not worse than that in Iraq. 
Turkey is a good example. America even forced the EU to accept Turkey as one of it's members. You really think Germany or any other country would accept Turkey as a member of the EU? But they did because mister Clinton and mister Bush wanted it. The genocide of the Kurds that takes place in Turkey is just as bad as that in Iraq. And America does nothing about it, because they're allies. 
Saudi Arabia isn't the most democratic country in the world either. But they're allies, so I guess nobody cares.
Smae with other countries around the world.. Indonesia for example.. Does anyone really care about the genocide of the people of Eastern Timor in that country. I didn't see any american presidents going to war against Indonesia.
So please don't fool yourselves. The motives of this war are not humanitarian. That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard.
It's all done for the OIL. What America wants is to put "puppet" governments in almost every country that is geopolitically important and so far it looks like it has succeeded in that goal.
That's why former Yugoslavia had to be seperated. Yugoslavia was the only socialist country that had a good economy at the time. 
There has never been a war done by American only to protect America or for... humanitarian purposes.
The american president reads a patriotic speech says things like "we are the best country in the world blah blah blah" and people just believe him. 
I'm really curious, what will the future historians write about our era and about America, it's role in world history and all the wars and sufferings that the 3rd world had to go through so that America could fulfill their imperialistic goals.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Zelena Hracka</b>!
> 
> 
> If I had to refrase that, I would have said that....you ARE Isreal. If you know what I mean.



You know how important the votes of the jewish populations (especially in Florida) are for mister Bush and his party?
I've even heard that Bush had made a promise before the elections to the jewish lobby that if he won the elections there would be a war against Iraq.

and when you say that America IS Israel, all I can say is that I agree wholeheartedly.
Jews control America's economy. The economy controls politics. The biggest companies fund the two political parties. 
It's not difficult to understand then why Isreal is an american allie. I know that it may sound too simplistic, but I really can't explain it any better right now.
I hope that didn't sound anti-Jewish because I didn't mean it to sound that way. I actually admire Jews because they stick for each other (when a Jew does some business the other Jews will help him, something that doesn't happen with other people) and that's why they have been so successful in the business world.


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## JoeF (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Zelena Hracka</b>!
> That is the main problem with the Americans. They think they are informed objectively by their media and they fail to aknowledge athat their media are as biased as those in every other county in the world.


I have no illusions that the media is unbiased. I am absolutely sure they are biased. All you need to do is consider how the 2000 presidential election was reported and any illusion of unbiased fact based reporting goes out the window.


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## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

An American hero: Rachel Corrie, 23 years old. 
Murdered by the Israeli troops while she was defending a the house of a Palestinian doctor in the Gaza strip. 










My love reaches you between the stars, Rachel. 

These are the last moments of her life. 
http://palsolidarity.org/pictures/rachelstanding2.jpg
http://palsolidarity.org/pictures/rach2.jpg
http://palsolidarity.org/pictures/rach3.jpg
http://palsolidarity.org/pictures/rachelhospital.jpg


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