# Just look at this



## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

http://www.sportnet.gr/showreport.asp?ChampID=17&CountryID=47&sport=2&ReportID=59605

For those that do not read Greek here is the story of a typical scandal about the turkish federation taking young playres from other countries, to whom then give turkish passports, often change their names, and some times even change their ages! Here is a brief list of some players that play in the Turkish national teams and that come from abroad:

Mirsad Yahovic (Turkcan). Serbia
Asim Paskanovic (Pars). Bosnia 
Denim Dalic (Dal). Bosnia
Zaza Edenishvili (Eden). Georgia. 
Rasim Basakov (Bashak). Azerbaijan
Oktai Ilmasov (Yilmaz). Bulgaria
Nikolai Pastalov (Pastal). Turkmenistan
Ventat Kuroukov (Kuruk). Ucraine. 
Valentin Pastalov (Pastal). Turkmenistan
Halil Koutrouzas (Kutruza). Occupied Cyprus.
Olug Kacanic (Katsaniku). Kossovo
Selim Fanteikin (Saygin). Kazakhstan. 
Arsan Iliasov (Ilyasova). Uzbekistan (who even though he is 19 years of age, he has been declared to be 16 and he played in the recent european championships where obviously dominated).
And also there is the case of Turkoglu, which is too nicely consealed to be revealed now. 

Great!


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## Gousgounis (Jul 24, 2003)

Good to see that the truth is coming out......They forgot to put Turkoglou on that list though....I think he's from FYROM.......He is 24 year old but I won't be surprised if he's more like 27-28.....You can't trust the figure given by the Turkish federation......


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## Peja Vu (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Zelena Hracka</b>!
> http://www.sportnet.gr/showreport.asp?ChampID=17&CountryID=47&sport=2&ReportID=59605
> 
> For those that do not read Greek here is the story of a typical scandal about the turkish federation taking young playres from other countries, to whom then give turkish passports, often change their names, and some times even change their ages! Here is a brief list of some players that play in the Turkish national teams and that come from abroad:
> ...


 
Wow. Thanks for the info.


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## SEOK (Apr 3, 2003)

Why Sarica isn't included?


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SEOK</b>!
> Why Sarica isn't included?


This is just a sample, the one posted by sportnet. Of course there are more of them, in other sports too. Sarica doesn't play in the NT and that's why he was not included I guess. Where is he from?


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## SEOK (Apr 3, 2003)

HercegBosna, I guess...


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## gantelo (May 19, 2003)

sarica, you guess?
well, he is Turkish. And to say Sarica is not included because he doesnt play in NT is showing how ignorant you are becuase most of the guys you mentioned does not play in the NT which I will come later in this post. This is not good. Really not good to say, Turkey is winning (or try to win) because they get good players from other countries and make them play in their NT as it is bad as lying and believing everything you read on the internet.
First of all hedo is not from MACEDONIA. His parents came to Turkey because of, guess what SEOK ( you are so into this guessing thing), the discrimination and racism towards Muslim people in former Yugoslavia. He is Turkish, he is Turkish for 23 years. 
Zaza Enden(Pachulia)- Plays for Georgia. He is Turkish but doesnt play for Turkey.
Asim Pars, Mirsad Turkcan, Nedim Dal- They are not players which we bought them with money like some western europe countries do in atlethics. They are people who came to Turkey because of the discrimination and war towards Muslims in former Yugoslavia. It is just like Hedos parents came here 25 years ago for the same reason. And I can understand you Greeks because all around the world, you were the only ones who defended the things that those human butchers did to their own people. You refused to send troops or even humanitarian help which you should have sent under the NATO regulations. 
Rasim Basak- came to Turkey as prospect cant disagree.
Ersan Ilyasova- I heard that his age is fake but it is not about Turkish federation it is about as you have mentioned, is the problem of Ozbekistan.
Halil Kutruza- I heard him here so I cant say much about him but because you said he was from so called occupied Cyprus and (I have a big question mark about the actual occupied part of Cyprus which is another topic which we should discuss in another forum), I have to ask which NT team would you like him to play? He cant play in his own and do you agree if he plays in Cyprus NT because as you know he is a Turk and if he played for you, Cyprus would be doing the same thing which you accuse Turkish officials of, playing with players which are not actual citizens. And if this guy cant play in a national team which he cant obviously because Northerh Turkish Republic of Cyprus cannot compete in international games, can you give me the answer? Where should he play? Where can he play or I think SEOK your guess is something like ' that Turkish [edited] should not play basketball because he is from the [edited] occupied Cyprus'. Right SEOK?

I am watching the Germany- Italy game now and can you believe the German coach actually giving his tactics in English. In Euro 2001 only one player in German NT was a pure German- Femerling. They have a Turkish player ( Demirel ) and they have bunch of foreign players such as Okulaja, Nikatbagske, Pesic (guess SEOK, where is he from? )and so more...
In Italy, Radulovic or Fuc-ka. Where are these guys from?
There are many players in todays sports who dont play in their original NT. Like Duncan playing in US. ( As close as Virgin Islands is to USA, the other Turkic nations are as close to Turkey. I am talking about Azebaycan, Turkmenistan,...)

And guys, where is Jake Tsakalidis from?

[I already said a couple of times, please, just post in english - JGKoblenz]


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>gantelo</b>!
> sarica, you guess?
> well, he is Turkish. And to say Sarica is not included because he doesnt play in NT is showing how ignorant you are becuase most of the guys you mentioned does not play in the NT which I will come later in this post. This is not good. Really not good to say, Turkey is winning (or try to win) because they get good players from other countries and make them play in their NT as it is bad as lying and believing everything you read on the internet.
> First of all hedo is not from MACEDONIA. His parents came to Turkey because of, guess what SEOK ( you are so into this guessing thing), the discrimination and racism towards Muslim people in former Yugoslavia. He is Turkish, he is Turkish for 23 years.
> ...


Briefly (I will reply in more length in the evening when I have more time):

Me and SEOK we were the first to say the Tsakalidis is really Ledkov and most of the Greeks do not want him in the NT because of that.

Me and SEOK we were of the first to be [edited] about Germany being a SerbocroatnigerianUSAturkogerman team in reality.

And most importantly of all, all the info I provided was published a few time back by FANATIK.COM.TR. So much of our subjectivity.

I'll return with more.


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## gantelo (May 19, 2003)

I am waiting for you and when you come back can you give me the real link of fanatik.com.tr not that it will change mey opinion which I will later explain after you post


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

Let me just chime in guys. I'd like to say that there is a case to be made for every national team as far as this problem is concerned. If you take France for example : Tony Parker was born in Belgium, his father is American and his mother is Dutch. Circumstances just made that his parents settled in France and Parker was raised there, so he acquired the French citizenship. That's pretty much what happened to Turkoglu I believe (although not for the same reasons). 
I mean rivalry in sports can be a good thing but try not to turn it into a nationalistic argument.


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## ltsook (Jun 8, 2003)

The World is a Ghetto you fools

The same people who create immigrants make the public scream against them

Nothing is bigger than the game

Stick to that


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

germany's coach is Finnish, might that just be the reason they speak english during timeouts?


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## SEOK (Apr 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>gantelo</b>!


As ZH already wrote, I've always condamned the presence of naturalized players in the National Teams. About Alexej Ledkov (Iakovos Tsakalidis) I had discussions too with some Greeks who were always believeing to the history of Jake's Greek mother blablabla... 

And I've never liked the presence in the Italian NT of Fuçka who is 100% Slovenian (he has some problems to speak Italian too), Damiao, Radulovic. 

*But* (bold). Following your words we have to thank Turkey because the TBF has given the possibility to live peacefully to "Turkcan", "Pars" and other players (so we need another country who gives a possibility to live peacefully to the Kurds, the Cypriots, the Alevis who suffer for the awful conditions of non-Turks in Anatolia, eh?). 

Don't be silly, Sarica has played many years with Turkish NT so what was happening some years ago is exactly the same of what is happening now. Reading your considerations about Ufuk, I think it's absolutely useless to discuss with a such narrow minded like you are. There's not someone more stupid than someone who doesn't want to understand... 
Turkey has always tried to hide this market of foreign players (because it's market: some of them have been payed to become Turks...), many times in a ridicoulous way. In the official site of Efes Pilsen Turkcan (whan he was playing there) was "_born in Istanbul_". Everyone, of course, knew he was born in Novi Pazar, Serbia (and now for some strange reasons Turks say "Novi Pazar, Bosnia. Ignorance or what?). 
Why have they to hide the true birthplace of Yehovic, a player who was claiming to have always been a supporter of Partizan Belgrade, "the team I've always dreamt to play with" (interview released in 1997, during the Spanish Eurobasket)? 

There are many differences between the naturalizations of players who become Germans, Spaniards, Italians, Greeks and play in these national teams. Everyone know that Fuçka is Slovenian. Is he called "Gregorio Fusca"? Is he born in Trieste or in Maribor? 
Then there are the naturalizations of players who cannot play in the national teams of their new country: Stojakovic, for example (who has always claimed he would have played with the Hellenic NT, but *the Greek Basketball Federation* refused that. Turks would have payed, to have a Stojakovic in their roster: Stoyakoglu sounds nice, no?), Tarlac, Vuksevic, Prelevic, Nesterovic, Jaric. They all are Greek citizens, and they have played as Greeks in club competitions. 
It has happened everywhere, there are hundreds of Argentinians playing with Italian or Spanish passports (Ginobili, Oberto, Sconochini, Nocioni: practically the whole NT of Argentina), it has happened in Turkey too (Naumoski "Namik Polat", Turner "Uzun"...). 
But no-one has tried to delete the truth like Turkish Basketball Federation made: or do you think that in Germany they still think that we can believe that Okulaja and Nikagbatse are pure Germans? 
No problems, simply admit the truth: Turkey had not a competitive national team, and the TBF made the same steps of a club. They bought players from others... 

P.S. You're right. Turkoglu is not from Macedonia, or is he born in Thessaloniki or Kozani?


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

OK, let me start. It is true that other teams have also naturalised players as well (see Germany, Italy, France, etc). However no country has done so as consistently as Turkey. What if you naturalize players from countries that are close to Turkey? Does it make any difference if a player is from a neighbouring country or if he is from a far away one? (And about the V.I. and the USA. They are essentially one country. See VI’s flag for a clue.)

About the occupied Cyprus thing. I won’t start arguing about this either. The Greek and Turkish politicians have continuously failed to solve the problem for 30 years now. I don’t think we can solve it ourselves in here. Even if you exclude this guy, there are other 12 in my list.

Apart from these players you can just check the NTs in Volleyball (women), track and field, even waterpolo and see how many are Russians, Serbs, Ethiopians, etc…you have.

As for a link of Fanatik.com.tr, I cannot provide you one because I didn’t save it. As far as I know the main report was in the printed version of the FANATIK and there was a much smaller article on this issue on the on-line version (as Fanatik.com.tr has always small articles). (I frequently visit the site and when I spot interesting reports I ask a friend to translate it for me.) 

Apart from all the article in question I have also read similar articles on the “Turkish Sport Industry of naturalizations”, in magazines and newspapers in Serbia, my native Bulgaria, and the US.


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## gantelo (May 19, 2003)

First of all I dont want to get into political things, you are right no one solved it yet and it is useless to have a fight just because you are Greek or Bulgarian and I am Turkish.
But I must admit, I am surprised that you know a group of people called Alevis in Turkey. You know a lot of things about Turkeys problems not just basketball but there is something wrong with what you said about them. They are not a seperate nationality they are pure Turks and many consider them as the real Turks. Their difference is they have a different muslim belief which causes problems. It is like the conflict in N. Ireland. But they are definitely not one of the groups you consider as non-turks. As I said I wont discuss about Kurds or Cypriots. My intention is really not be too nationalistic and as a matter of fact I see myself closer to some of the Greek people than some of the Turks ( my grandfather was born in Thessaloniki- unlike Turkoglu who was born in Istanbul ). 
About the Ufuk Sarica thing, you said he is from Bosnia and you asked why he wasnt listed and and your buddy Zelena responded like 'Sarica doesn't play in the NT and that's why he was not included I guess.' And I said there are 11 players who doesnt play in the NT and still included in that list so it is not about him not playing for the NT which excluded him from that list. It is about him being an original Turkish citizen, I dont understand which part you missed. 
BTW eveybody nows Mirsad is from Novi Pazar and he is not ashamed, he is proud about that. 
Turkoglu is not from anywhere near Macedonia not from Kozani not from Thessaloniki.
Virgin Islands was in the same group with USA in this years qualifying games. So how come two team which are supposed to be different nations can match in an international competiton?
I dont want this thing to last longer because there are some political issues involved and I dont want to discuss them but in Euro2003 we had only two players who wasnt born in Turkey. One of them is Mirsad and the other is Rasim Basak who wasnt used for a second. So we are almost even, you got a foreign player and we got two which one of them didnt even get into the game just brought there to complete the roster. If you can make a Cypriot player Greek and make him play in your team, I think we can make this Azerbaycan( Rasim Basak) guy a Turkish player and use him.


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## parso (Sep 8, 2003)

Wow of all nations the Greeks are the last who could accuse us with such things... how ignorant can people become?
Gianfranco was like this for his whole life so I would not expect much more from him anyway but come on folks whats the deal with all the hate blinding your commonsense...
The Georgian Suns player who once he was out of Greece renounced his Greek nationality is your starting center... there is not much pride these days when it comes to basketball I guess. I won't even think of the pressure your federation has put on the pure kid... thats aweful. I distinctly remember that your federation acted as a mafia organizations in trying to make sure that Tarlac and Stojakovic don't play for their native country(loosing their Greek citizenship!)... thats not friendship!
What about the black Greek palyer sitting on the bench?
Comeon guys you have to be critical of yourself first and than lash out to others... 
Yes we as many other nations in the past and present did the naturalization thing(I don't like it either) but it was mostly done by clubs.... same goes for the Greeks. To make sucha big deal out of nothing is simply showing your hate and disgust. (I won't even argue with yours and Gianfrancos (comments on Turkoglu and Sarica they more Turks than you will ever be Greek or fasict Italians)

Chill it folks because you are about to start the Third World War on the Internet...


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

I’m glad you agree with us on some things, and also it is nice to find eventually somebody from Turkey with whom I can talk about some of these things without swearing and the like, as I used to, up until now in other forums and in here. 

The list I provided is of players that play currently in the NTs from the ones of 16y olds to the men’s one. Some of them may not play all the time in these, or they may have chosen for preliminary rounds of competitions (and they were subsequently cut, etc). My point is not that Turkish NTs have some successes due to Naturalized players, what I’m saying is that they try to do so by those means. The same as my fellow Bulgarians are doing by giving Bulgarian passports to Priest Lauderdale and S.Smith, or as FYROM are doing with Kenion Jones and Ryan Stack, which is even worse because the get the players “ready for use.”

Koutrouzas is not Turkish, is not Greek either. He is Cypriot.

England and Wales, have different national teams, but nobody can argue that if a Welsh player is “moved” to the English that this would be a “naturalization”. Same would be about Holland and Surinam, or France and New Caledonia, or whatever. VIs are basically American soil, even more than Puerto Rico or Aruba are.

About Sarica, I confess ignorance.

And about your last point. I think your example wasn’t successful. Greece has never used a Cypriot in its NT in any sports. All Cypriots that play in the greek leagues are considered as foreigners. Is this the case for Turkish-speaking Cypriots that play in Turkey (I do not know, I’m just asking). 




To Parso: "The black guy that sits on the bench?" Who's the ignorant now?


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## SEOK (Apr 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>parso</b>!
> [...]
> The Georgian Suns player who once he was out of Greece renounced his Greek nationality is your starting center...
> [...]


But could you read what I wrote or not? 
No. You can't. But it's not difficult... 

Ah, who are you? Erciyes? Alper? Ozgur? Ozun? Dak'kon?


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## gantelo (May 19, 2003)

I dont know if any of them play in a major league ( football or basketball), but if they play, they wouldnt be in foreign status. Maybe because they cant travel around the world with their own passport and need a Turkish one to do so.
But at least we agree on something: someone should draw a line and stop this naturalization thing. At least they may try not to use 'ready American players'. My point was not only the Turks did it, almost every nation has done it and accusing Turks like they are the only ones of this or pioneers, I dont agree.
Well anyways, good luck in the rest of the championship. Hope to see you again in Euro2005.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

WTF is wrong with you Turks? I normally don’t hate Turks but you people are really making mad.
So you say that we were wrong because we refused to send troops in Serbia to kill the Serbs when we had no proof they commited those “crimes” you are talking about?

**** you. So what the **** happened to the thousand missing cypriots you captured when you invaded the island in 1974?
What happened to all those people? Do you know that their families still can’t accept the fact their children are dead. So what did you to do them? Did you lock them up in your wonderful prisons? Or did you kill them? Why won’t that fat old pig Dektas ever say what happened to those people?
As I said I don’t hate Turks and I always say that the past is the past and I try to forget all the horrible things you did to our nation for 400 years (that’s why I won’t mention the genocide of the Armenian nation or how you slaughtered the greek populations of Mikrasia) but some things really bother me.
You are so ignorant and stupid (at least some of you). 
Psychological pressure on Tsakalidis? WTF are you talking about? Only the Turks use those methods. It was Tsakalidis that asked to play for our team and it was mostly because of his friendship with Ioannidis. He didn’t have any reason to play for our NT and he didn’t have anything to lose either. You’re such an idiot.

And wtf is that about a black player on our team? Are you a racist or something (I wouldn’t be surprised if you are, afterall you are a Turk). Anyway Schortsianitis’ father is greek, he’s a civil engineer who lived and worked in Cameroon and married a local woman. Same with Kommatos who has a greek father and a mother from Gyuana (a country near Brazil).

Learn some history you stupid people, but why should you, you always were a nation of murderers and rapists that still kills Kurds and funds terrorist organizations in former USSR, there’s nothing to learn that would make you proud. 
As I said I didn’t hate Turks. I knew some kids from Turkey when I was at the university and they weren’t bad people (the only thing that bothered me about them was that they ate like pigs hehe j/k) and Kutluay played in Greece for 3 (or was it 4 years) and I always liked him, despite the fact that he played for Panathinaikos and AEK but you guys have really made me change my mind about Turks. 
Now I’m so glad we kicked your *** at the Eurobasket.


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## gantelo (May 19, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>qwertyu</b>! Are you a racist or something (I wouldn’t be surprised if you are, afterall you are a Turk).


Wow, who is being racist? I said I wont talk about the political stuff but I think you should go and search for some objective articles or books or whatever you find. It is not my problem you hating Turks, as long as you dont harm me, you may want to kill me, I dont mind. In my country there are a lot of people who hate Greek but I call them idiot. 
Past is past and after some time, I think there is a possibility of you loving me. Since you said, 'I didnt hate Turks despite the fact what they did to Cypriots' but then you start to like them with a complete turnaround with the help of your Turkish friends. So from now on I will live with that slight possibility and it will be always on my mind that, 'time will cure'.
Oh please, please dont be mad at me


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## trueorfalse (May 31, 2003)

I have a strong feeling some people will get banned from this forum unless they calm down.

As for nations having athletes from other countries representing their adopted country...
Well is it not great that some nations choose to display their multicultural country by asking some of these athletes to represent them? I strongly belive that a player like Sofokles will make alot of Greeks more open minded.

I dont belive that nationality and whom you choose to represent on a international level should be based on ethnic roots but rather on where you got your sportseducation.

That way the nationalteam would reflect that given nations abillity to develope talents. (Like Tony Parker (Belgian/American), Misan Nikagbatse (Finnish/Nigerian) etc, etc)


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## gvergoulas (Jul 4, 2003)

I have to say that this Thread is spinning out of control. We went from talking about basketball to players playing for different countries down to racism and wars!?!

THIS IS A BASKETBALL BOARD :upset: 

If any of you want to discuss political [edited] go somewhere else. I shouldn't be subjected to your political beliefs on this European chat board

So....i stick to my words and proceed to say that Italy will loose to Greece and Spain will beat Israel, for a very tough semi....Both Greece and Spain beat each other at home during the qualifiers for this Euro, but Spain did not have Gasol at the time...so Spain is favoured. Also Greece almost beat Spain in a very un'friendly' game in Spain a few weeks ago, so anything can happen.

I think France can win it all this time around though.


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>qwertyu</b>!
> I normally don’t hate Turks
> As I said I don’t hate Turks
> As I said I didn’t hate Turks.





> Psychological pressure on Tsakalidis? WTF are you talking about? Only the Turks use those methods.
> 
> Are you a racist or something (I wouldn’t be surprised if you are, afterall you are a Turk).
> 
> Learn some history you stupid people, but why should you, you always were a nation of murderers and rapists


I think I'm neutral in this debate so I can say you are contradicting yourself here dude. The comments on the second quote were filled with hatred in my opinion. Well, I'm willing to believe you when you say you don't hate Turks, but the least I can notice is you have strong negative stereotypes about them.


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## parso (Sep 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>starvydas</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you...starvydas.

There is nothing wrong in talking "some" politics as long its stays civil...

The problem with the Greek guys in this forum and their little helper is that their nationslism is based on hate towards us Turks. And it made sense 150 years ago, there is nothing wrong in it since Greece was struggling for independence. But the problem arises when the young people of today in Greece are still programmed toward hating us with blindfolds on. 
To gain a broader understanding of things you have to be critical of your own beliefs and assumptions before you attack others. Most of the things you mentioned won't get a answer from me because they deserve no attention because they rest on either totaly wrong facts or subjective ones...
Are you people so right in everything you do... why would anyone slaugther a whole family just because they are Turks. Why are your governments always supporting terrorist organisations? Why are the leaders of Turkish minorities imprisoned( What was the name...Dr. Ahmet or something) Why did Greek troops massacre thousands when they invaded my hometown Izmir?

Yes we did some wrong things but so did you and as long as you just ignore one and restate the other over and over again you won't have a shred of credibility! 

To go back to the argument in the first paragraph, we don't hate Greeks normally because our nationalism is not geared toward them. They are just a little country in the west who somehow can't themselfs and mess with us... their whole domestic politics is around their issues with us( I never heard anything over here about Greece though)... somebody needs to get a new life I say!

Peace

Note: I still don't hate you, and please stop arguing you went to an university it sounds silly.


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## parso (Sep 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SEOK</b>!
> 
> 
> But could you read what I wrote or not?
> ...


take a guess you have a 25% chance( You can't be thinking that I am Erciyes after all the lessons I gave you about life...)


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## SEOK (Apr 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>parso</b>!
> take a guess you have a 25% chance( You can't be thinking that I am Erciyes after all the lessons I gave you about life...)


Lessons from someone who can't even read and understand (but we know the average QI there is 90...)? 
It sounds so funny... 
Anyway it doesn't mind who you are. It's exactly the same...


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## Gousgounis (Jul 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trueorfalse</b>!
> I have a strong feeling some people will get banned from this forum unless they calm down.
> 
> As for nations having athletes from other countries representing their adopted country...
> Well is it not great that some nations choose to display their multicultural country by asking some of these athletes to represent them? I strongly belive that a player like Sofokles will make alot of Greeks more open minded.


Is this a joke???The presence of Sofokles will make a lot of Greece more open minded????Sorry dude but the Greeks are minded than the normal american person..The presence of Sofoklis will not change anything.........Don't make comments about things you don't know...


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## JGKoblenz (Jul 19, 2002)

[This is a forum to talk basketball, so let's stick with this subject. This thread isn't going anywhere, it's closed. Any question feel free to PM me - JGKoblenz]


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