# Raef LeFemme



## ShakeTiller (Oct 13, 2003)

First Denver, then Dallas, then George Karl, then Dallas again, and now Boston. For years now, people have been saying Raef would be an 18 and 10 guy and, you know what, the fact of the matter is that he isn't. On the contrary, he is going backwards.

It's not a lack of talent. Raef will give you 18 and 10 every fourth or five game or so, and then disappear for the rest of the week. His problem is that the slightest amount of physical play sends him to bench to adjust his sanitary napkin.

The Celts got bamboozled in this trade and are now stuck with another monster contract on an unproductive big man for 5 years.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ShakeTiller</b>!
> First Denver, then Dallas, then George Karl, then Dallas again, and now Boston. For years now, people have been saying Raef would be an 18 and 10 guy and, you know what, the fact of the matter is that he isn't. On the contrary, he is going backwards.
> 
> It's not a lack of talent. Raef will give you 18 and 10 every fourth or five game or so, and then disappear for the rest of the week. His problem is that the slightest amount of physical play sends him to bench to adjust his sanitary napkin.
> ...


What are you talking about? Its 6 years.


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## theBirdman (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ShakeTiller</b>!
> First Denver, then Dallas, then George Karl, then Dallas again, and now Boston. For years now, people have been saying Raef would be an 18 and 10 guy and, you know what, the fact of the matter is that he isn't. On the contrary, he is going backwards.
> It's not a lack of talent. Raef will give you 18 and 10 every fourth or five game or so, and then disappear for the rest of the week. His problem is that the slightest amount of physical play sends him to bench to adjust his sanitary napkin.
> The Celts got bamboozled in this trade and are now stuck with another monster contract on an unproductive big man for 5 years.



The scary thing is that I agree with you! He is a useful player but not much more! And his contract is horrible! Maybe Bobcats will take him!


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

I didn't like this trade to begin with but I did think we'd get much more out of Lafrentz than we have so far. I mean Mark Blount is outplaying him, give me a BREAK!!!


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

I won't make predictions about Raef in the future and his numbers, but give him some time guys. He A) has to acquaint himself with the offense B) acquaint himself with the defense...


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FanOfAll8472</b>!
> I won't make predictions about Raef in the future and his numbers, but give him some time guys. He A) has to acquaint himself with the offense B) acquaint himself with the defense...


We tried to warn you about this dude when the trade went down. But seriously, hes been in the NBA for 5 years now how long does it take to get "acquainted" to an offense. Put the ball in the hole. If it doesnt go in grab the ball and try again or give it to somebody with the same color jersey on. Its not quite rocket science.


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

*Watch!*

Look screw the offense and defense he is getting like 15 minutes a game. Please tell me the last time a guy avg 15 mins and made the all star team or was even franchise player?uhh never!! I am not sure why Danny made the deal if Raef wasnt gonna start and get starting minutes but mark my words within 2 or 3 weeks he will be starting and avg'ing at least 12 and 7 and 2. Vins trip back to reality kinda hurt Raefs shot at the PF so he will have to work at the starting C spot, and it wont be that hard to do since Tony is sumwhat playing injured. 

And about numbers come on does anyone remember his Denver stats!! (that was against the west, not the (L)east)


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Watch!*



> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> And about numbers come on does anyone remember his Denver stats!! (that was against the west, not the (L)east)


Do you remember Eric Williams in his first few seasons? Do you believe he'll ever average those things again?


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

How old is EWill and how old is Raef? EWill is also alot more physical and the wear and tear has taken a toll on his body.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Re: Watch!*



> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you remember Eric Williams in his first few seasons? Do you believe he'll ever average those things again?


Wasn't his stats like 18 points 7 rebounds? I sure hope he can average that again. Those are quality numbers.


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

EWills best season was the 96-97 season with the C's he avg'ed 15pts and 4.6 rbs. He played 72 games and avg'ed 33 min. EWills career scoring is 9pts, he gets 3.4rbs in career 24 minutes. Oh and by the way EWill is 31 and Raef is 27. Again by the way that year we went 15-67 with ML Carr as coach.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

I belive that Eric Williams has blown out his knee between averaging 17 and 5 and today. 

As for LaFrentz, I think his problem is that he's not actually sure what he is as a player. He has outside shooting ability and a post game, but neither really puts itself out there as being significantly better than the other. I don't think Boston is the place to fix that. Baker, Pierce, and Williams are brilliant post players and occupy the post for 48 minutes. That doesn't really open a lot of room there for LaFrentz. However, he can't just play outside because he's a big man and is needed to rebound. Its a bit of an issue. I think he needs to get into the high post and work with Baker, Pierce, and Williams in the low post, much like Blount should. There, he can use his post game, his shooting game, his passing ability and be available to rebound.


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## NorthSideHatrik (Mar 11, 2003)

Raef is better at the 4 than he is at the 5, i really think he should be seen as a 4 who can give some minutes at the 5. But like other have said he needs the minutes to make an impact. When he's a starter he's good for 15 and 8. He just didn't fit in with the run and gun mavericks. He is without a doubt a better fit in the halfcourt than he is in the run and gun situations.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> How old is EWill and how old is Raef? EWill is also alot more physical and the wear and tear has taken a toll on his body.


Thats not the point how many times will you see a player come back to his old form? Its like 1 in every 100 players, and well that 1 was Vin Baker so you'll have to wait for at least another 100 players till that occurs again.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>NorthSideHatrik</b>!
> Raef is better at the 4 than he is at the 5, i really think he should be seen as a 4 who can give some minutes at the 5. But like other have said he needs the minutes to make an impact. When he's a starter he's good for 15 and 8. He just didn't fit in with the run and gun mavericks. He is without a doubt a better fit in the halfcourt than he is in the run and gun situations.


He is playing the 4

Starters.......Bench
5 Battie........Blount
4 Baker........Raef

also great to hear that he's not a runner, especially on a team thats trying to run.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Pay Attention*

Of all the Celtics, Raef has the best +/- of anyone on the team. When he's on the floor, over the first 8 games, we've outscored our opponents by 12 points. When he's on the bench, we've been outscored by 9 points. That is a +/- of 21 points, or roughly +2.8 points per game. 

He is scoring 8.8 and 5.6rpg and .88bpg in just 22 minutes. He is doing fine. He's done what has been asked and I think he will do more. I like the trade for us, and I'm sure Dallas loves the trade for them. It's a win-win (until the end of this season).


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

OK... lets talk people who return to form...

Pierce-life threating stabbing
Baker-Alcohol
Vince-Multiple surgeries
Kobe-Rape charges
Shaq-toe,stomach,whatever else
Z-Missed like 2 full seasons 2 seasons ago, last year all-star
Dampier-Avg'ed crap for like 5 yrs and now rebounding machine
Zo-Kidney


Thats just a few off the top of my head but the list can go on, so why not Raef?


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Not funny, but...*

Raef is wearing two knee braces....He does have knee issues.....


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> OK... lets talk people who return to form...
> 
> Pierce-life threating stabbing
> ...



Pierce-life threating stabbing--never lost his form
Baker-Alcohol--not proven yet
Vince-Multiple surgeries-- not proven yet
Kobe-Rape charges--definitly not proven yet
Shaq-toe,stomach,whatever else--ill give you this one
Z-Missed like 2 full seasons 2 seasons ago, last year all-star
Dampier-Avg'ed crap for like 5 yrs and now rebounding machine--developed didnt regain form
Zo-Kidney--not proven yet


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> OK... lets talk people who return to form...
> 
> Pierce-life threating stabbing
> ...


In order to return to form, you have to lose the form. Pierce never lost it, though I would put him in the category with Baker regardless of that. Vince Carter never had that serious of a surgery, like EWill did. Kobe wasn't physically affected by rape charges, its not a surgery and it didn't need recovery that kept him away from training, etc. Shaq never lose his form. Dampier isn't a return to form, he just sudden achieved. Zo hasn't returned to form.

I'll give you Pierce, Zydrunas, and Baker.


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

So then there is 297 that wont return to form?

He is avg'ing decent numbers for the minutes he is getting and gaurenteed w/i 2 or 3 weeks he will be starting over Battie.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> So then there is 297 that wont return to form?
> 
> He is avg'ing decent numbers for the minutes he is getting and gaurenteed w/i 2 or 3 weeks he will be starting over Battie.


Decent? So you want your C/PF to shoot 16% form 3? And he's also supposed to be a decent shooter? Hell he's wide open 70% of the time and he still misses shots.


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

If he started at C he would play in the paint. Where C's belong!
Battie plays about 15 foot out and Raef is good from there in. OH yeah career he is a 36.6% 3pt shooter and Pierce is a 36.7% career shooter. Maybe he is in a rut kinda like Pierce and his lazy play and turnovers. Since Pierce is playing so bad do you want to bench him or trade him?


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> If he started at C he would play in the paint. Where C's belong!


So because he's not starting he's playing outside???



> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> Battie plays about 15 foot out and Raef is good from there in. OH yeah career he is a 36.6% 3pt shooter and Pierce is a 36.7% career shooter. Maybe he is in a rut kinda like Pierce and his lazy play and turnovers.


Career, yes this year, no.....he is sucking at 3's...

How can one guy come in here and be lazy?



> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> Since Pierce is playing so bad do you want to bench him or trade him?


Isn't that what we have been doing the past 5-6 years? Trade away players because they aren't the next Bird and Russel?


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

Exactly why dogg Raef for the 8 games he's played give him a chance I dont hear you yelling trade Pierce. IF Raef gets minutes we'll get results. Its just that simple. Please you tell me why Pierce is playing lazy?


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Pay Attention*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> Of all the Celtics, Raef has the best +/- of anyone on the team. When he's on the floor, over the first 8 games, we've outscored our opponents by 12 points. When he's on the bench, we've been outscored by 9 points. That is a +/- of 21 points, or roughly +2.8 points per game.
> 
> He is scoring 8.8 and 5.6rpg and .88bpg in just 22 minutes. He is doing fine. He's done what has been asked and I think he will do more. I like the trade for us, and I'm sure Dallas loves the trade for them. It's a win-win (until the end of this season).


So you got Raef's stats I'll give ya Pierce's -6.8 when he's in, +34.0 when he's out, which is a -40.8 difference....so does that mean we should trade Paul?


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*I'm not saying we should trade anybody*

But to look just at the usual stats and say Raef isn't playing well is stupid.

I hate to say this, but of our big men Battie might be playing the worst. Not LaFrentz.


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

*BATTIE*

GOOD CALL!! He is playing bad.

Battie- GP7, GS3, FG53%, 4.1RBS, .7AST, .7BLKS, 1.14TO, 5.4PTS

Raef-GP6, GS0, FG44%, 6.2RBS, 1.7AST, .83BLKS, .5TO, 9.3PTS

Why aint Raef starting?


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## KBrownFan (Jul 6, 2003)

*Raef...not bad if you know what to expect.*

You guys are wanting too much out of Raef. One thing you can expect to improve is his 3 point shooting - that's about it though.

Raef isn't a bad player. He runs the court well and shoots a high percentage. He is left handed and partly because of this can block some shots. He can pass the ball around fairly well though he can hardly dribble. 

Thing about Raef that people don't really understand though
He is a finesse player. He lacks alot of physical strength. Even Tony Battie is alot stronger then Raef. Accordingly Raef gets pushed out of position when defending guys in the post and gives up really good position. In addition Raef gets pushed around when it comes to rebounding and doesn't get as many defensive rebounds as you might expect. This is how he gets his "soft" reputation. Walter McCarty is "soft" too. Your going to be soft if your playing guys alot stronger then you.

Another problem is that Raef doesn't really create his own shots - and shoots mainly from the outside. He does have a limited post game but its not that great. The main problem here isn't his ability its that he can't get good position. Because of these limitations - he is dependent on others for his game to be set up. This in part accounts for his inconsistent offensive output.

OB is a defense first guy and likes Blount in part because he is physically stronger in the paint. Blount has gotten stronger through the years and now can battle better with the bigger guys. Blount isn't the shooter that Raef is but has a more physical offensive game.

If Baker wasn't doing so well Raef would see more time at the PF. 
That's more his natural spot. 

But Raef can help any team in the NBA. Big man who can stroke it from the outside are rare. And Raef can do that and run the court - and pass the ball decently. When used right he can be an asset. Dallas fans expected him to be like Alonzo used to be a big shot blocking forceful machine. That's just not his game.

Pete


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## ThereisnoIinteam3 (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: Raef...not bad if you know what to expect.*



> Originally posted by <b>KBrownFan</b>!
> You guys are wanting too much out of Raef. One thing you can expect to improve is his 3 point shooting - that's about it though.


 People are expecting him to do as much as Antoine. Which is who he was traded for. Which proves my point about how stupid this trade was.

Don't blame Raef. He didn't ask to be traded for an All Star.
You all know who is to blame but will you ever admit it? Nah


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: BATTIE*



> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> GOOD CALL!! He is playing bad.
> 
> Battie- GP7, GS3, FG53%, 4.1RBS, .7AST, .7BLKS, 1.14TO, 5.4PTS
> ...


The real question is why isn't Blount starting? He's doing much better than Battie and Raef. I don't care about veterans. Put the best players (right now) on the floor! That's why rookies don't develop in Boston.


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

OK your right Blount should be starting but majority of the minuntes should go to him and Raef and Battie should be traded!


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> OK your right Blount should be starting but majority of the minuntes should go to him and Raef and Battie should be traded!


Battie has 13 pts and 4 rebounds in 17 minutes and halftime isn't over yet.  He's shooting great and he's the trailer when their running. Pierce is giving him wide open shots, by drawing defenders toward him.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

I thought Battie hasn't been 100% so far? Give him some time guys, like give Raef some time.


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## Jacres318 (Jun 8, 2003)

ha ha ha, LMAO. Oh give him some time. Give him some time, LMAO. He's been doing it his whole CAREER! he's not going to change. I agree with there's no I in team. Ya'll are stuck with him though for 6 years and it pisses your whole cap situation to hell, couldv'e let Toine go and pick up Curry, now you got a guy with just as bad of a contract who has no bang for a huge buck! 

Sounds like Ainge pissed your team down the toilet. AS of now. You can't sign any major free agents, becuase of LaMarshmallows contract and you now have to trade to get better and your only trade bait is Peirce....your franchise player. 

The reason you don't trade peirce after a slow start is becuase he's a proven all star and an elite player in the NBA, the reason why get pissed at Raef, he's a porven bust and has the most ridiculas contract and it took giving up an all star to get him.

Might I add Peirce is struggling because Walker is gone. Peirce got way more open looks when he had Walker to draw the double team, Raef can't draw one defender on him, so you think it's a great trade for the future?


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jacres318</b>!
> ha ha ha, LMAO. Oh give him some time. Give him some time, LMAO. He's been doing it his whole CAREER! he's not going to change. I agree with there's no I in team. Ya'll are stuck with him though for 6 years and it pisses your whole cap situation to hell, couldv'e let Toine go and pick up Curry, now you got a guy with just as bad of a contract who has no bang for a huge buck!
> 
> Sounds like Ainge pissed your team down the toilet. AS of now. You can't sign any major free agents, becuase of LaMarshmallows contract and you now have to trade to get better and your only trade bait is Peirce....your franchise player.
> ...


Not trying to sound as hard as Jacres, but he is right. Raef has really only had one decent year in Denver and nobody relly knows how good it was because its not like Denvers games where telivised back then. So he got rewarded for his stat sheet. The year and a half he spent in Dallas was enough for us to realise that he talks the right talk and even puts up a heck of a decent game every now and then but he'll disapear for long stretches.

Why do you think the Mavs had trouble with Portland in the 1st round? Nelly did want to body up but because he couldnt trust LaFoulz to grab a board consistintly he had to go small. In game 2 against the Spurs Dirk gets 3 fouls in the 1st 5 min. of the game . Does Nelly let Raef get in there and try to gaurd Duncan? No he trusted Dirk with his horrible defense and 3 fouls more then he trusted Raef with no fouls. Think about it.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*LaFrentz/Pierce*

I think you're right about LaFrentz in essentially saying that what you see is what you get. He may play a little better when he returns from IL, but he's no superstar. I don't think Danny Ainge had any delusions to the contrary. He knows what he got. And he has a plan. And we got cap space in the deal. Would you prefer letting Walker leave and getting nothing? We still would have been over the cap or at least close enough that we couldn't have signed a max guy.


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

Well, we got Welsch. Obviously, Ainge didn't think Raef was enough and wouldn't have done the trade without Welsch. Welsch looked good last night, even though he didn't score. I think he could be a good backup point guard and play some minutes at the two, too. I really think Ainge was thinking addition by subtraction, though. Walker gave the Celtics a lot of good qualities, including leadership, but he didn't fit into the future plans. As much as I liked what Walker brought to the Celtics, I think he's better off in Dallas. They seem to be utilizing his strengths quite well there. Having so many talented players around him makes it easier for him to score, easier for him to pass, and easier for him to play in the post and grab rebounds. It's hard to say whether the Celtics would've taken a step forward with Walker on the team, but I think what Ainge wanted was someone who wasn't such a vocal presence and who filled a couple voids, though not all of them, and that's what they got in Raef. I think they expected him to shoot the outside shot better to draw defenses out of the paing, but if he's injured and not getting any lift (he was quoted as saying he thinks about jumping before he jumps because of his injury), then his shot would suffer. I do like the presence he provides on the offensive boards, though.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

*Re: LaFrentz/Pierce*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> I think you're right about LaFrentz in essentially saying that what you see is what you get. He may play a little better when he returns from IL, but he's no superstar. I don't think Danny Ainge had any delusions to the contrary. He knows what he got. And he has a plan. *And we got cap space in the deal.* Would you prefer letting Walker leave and getting nothing? We still would have been over the cap or at least close enough that we couldn't have signed a max guy.


Can we please put this rumor to sleep? We did not get cap space in this deal. We got farther away from luxury tax land, but we do not get any cap space. The cap right now is at 42.5 mil. Next season, we have 49 mil tied up already. We still won't be under the cap. Two seasons from now, we'll be at 48.8 mil, which probably still won't be under the cap. We won't get under the cap until Baker's deal is up after the 05-06 season. Had we kept Antoine, we would have been under the cap after the 04-05 season, unless we resigned him.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: LaFrentz/Pierce*



> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> 
> Can we please put this rumor to sleep? We did not get cap space in this deal. We got farther away from luxury tax land, but we do not get any cap space. The cap right now is at 42.5 mil. Next season, we have 49 mil tied up already. We still won't be under the cap. Two seasons from now, we'll be at 48.8 mil, which probably still won't be under the cap. We won't get under the cap until Baker's deal is up after the 05-06 season. *Had we kept Antoine, we would have been under the cap after the 04-05 season, unless we resigned him.*


Or after this season (03-04), if he really disliked Ainge that is.....


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## Jacres318 (Jun 8, 2003)

That's what I've been saying, ya'll basically got just talent(or none), it wasn't a cap move. That's why I don't see why it's better for the future for the C's.

I can't say anything for the rest of Mavs fans, but I pretty sure they know what I'm talking about, when now we won't get soar throat every playoff game. From saying the famous phrase "PASS THE DAMN BALL"(of course everytime Lafretnz touchs the ball). Seriously get use to holding your breath eveytime he lays up the ball.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jacres318</b>!
> That's what I've been saying, ya'll basically got just talent(or none), it wasn't a cap move. That's why I don't see why it's better for the future for the C's.


Well some of us HATE this move, but the way it does benefit us, it gives us the mid-exception.




> Originally posted by <b>Jacres318</b>!
> I can't say anything for the rest of Mavs fans, but I pretty sure they know what I'm talking about, when now we won't get soar throat every playoff game. From saying the famous phrase "PASS THE DAMN BALL"(of course everytime Lafretnz touchs the ball). Seriously get use to holding your breath eveytime he lays up the ball.



You guys definitly will benifit from the trade a lot.



> Originally posted by <b>Jacres318</b>!
> Seriously get use to holding your breath eveytime he lays up the ball.


I know what you mean.


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