# Putting Kobe in perspective



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

> By Jemele Hill
> Page 2
> 
> Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan.
> ...


ESPN.com: Page 2 : Putting Kobe in perspective
Some good points, some arguable and some I don't agree with.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Wow, the guy actually says Kobe's as good of a defender as Jordan. I thought he was kidding when he said Kobe was as good a player as Jordan, but I guess not.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

Ras said:


> Wow, the guy actually says Kobe's as good of a defender as Jordan. I thought he was kidding when he said Kobe was as good a player as Jordan, but I guess not.


It was a female who wrote this article. I don't think she was kidding.


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## cadarn (Feb 1, 2006)

Theonee said:


> It was a female who wrote this article.


*edit* Kobe is just as good a defender...Laughable.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Jemele Hill shouldn't be writing for espn. Not good.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Say what you want, and I don't like Jemele Hill either, but this is indisputable



> The best-player argument shouldn't be determined by personal dislike. But if you want to take it there, fine. Jordan was hardly the ideal husband, but only the tabloids were brave enough to venture into his personal life. And what about those gambling issues? If Jordan's life had been covered like Kobe's, we would have an entirely different opinion of His Airness.
> 
> and
> 
> ... All this time we've been looking for a player who is better than Jordan, but most of us can't get beyond whether we like or dislike Kobe as a person to recognize his contributions to the game.


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

Tragedy said:


> Say what you want, and I don't like Jemele Hill either, but this is indisputable


By itself, this may be a reasonable point, and it might be fair to write a column about whether society judges/has judged Kobe differently than it judged Jordan, for whatever reasons.

That, of course, has nothing to do with actual _basketball._ Unfortunately, her column had a basketball hook, and a basketball point--not just that Kobe is judged differently by society, but that Kobe is actually better on the court than Jordan. And the evidence for this claim is just not in the article, nor does Hill make much of an attempt to provide it. There's basically not a single insightful basketball point in the entire article.

If you want to write a column about society and the media, then write about society and the media. Don't pretend to be writing about what goes on on the court, when you really have nothing intelligent to say about it.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

With the exceptions of Kobe being as good a defender and Kobe being a better player than Jordan, which admittedly is the gist of the article, most of it isn't all that far off. Especially the stuff Tragedy pointed out. Still, as good a defender as MJ? Thats where MJ still has, and always will have, a huge advantage over Kobe. And why Kobe will likely never be a better overall player than Jordan. MJ's prowess and consistency on both ends of the court is something you'll find once-in-a-lifetime, BSPN hype be damned. It's just that rare. This writer didn't even bother to back the statement up with anything again, either, literally just said "Kobe is just as good a defender." We have 200 posters on this site that could write a better article.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Kobe can do everything Michael did, and even a few things Michael couldn't do.





> Kobe is just as good a defender.





> Yes, better than Dwyane Wade, who is certainly closer to the Kobe-Jordan level than LeBron James





> In fact, you could argue that Jordan was even worse. Far as we know, Kobe hasn't jacked up any of his teammates the way Jordan punched out Steve Kerr and Will Perdue at practice.





> Jordan was guarded by the likes of John Starks and Joe Dumars, who were fine players but weren't nearly as skilled or physically imposing as LeBron, D-Wade, Tracy McGrady or even Vince Carter.


i'd rather be guarded by those guys than dumars or even starks. also excluded are athletes like drexler, ron harper, paul pressey, gerald wilkins, michael cooper - and that's just the 80s. 



> The NBA is tougher now.





> Michael, is surrounded with mediocre to below-average talent





> Phoenix, Dallas and San Antonio are all better than the Utah, Portland and the Charles Barkley-led Phoenix team that Michael met in the NBA Finals.





> Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing will be among the best centers ever, but none of them affected the league the way Shaq and Tim Duncan have.





> There are two two-time MVPs in Kobe's own conference (Duncan, Nash), which is a problem Jordan never faced during his championship runs.





> Seven-footers weren't launching 3s back then.


is this a plus or a minus? and what about brad lohaus?



> Magic Johnson and the Lakers were on a downward spiral, and the Pistons were on their last legs. It was Michael and everyone else. That's not the case for Kobe.


these are essentially the dubious claims in the article. which covers just about everything.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Most people will not admit it, but Kobe is a lot better than Jordan at a lot of things. Im not saying hes better than Jordan, since he needs to put it all together and lead his team to more success. But Kobe is the better ballhandler, 3 point shooter, and free throw shooter. And Kobe is playing in a harder league with zone defenses, advanced scouting, bigger, stronger, more athletic and skilled players and just plain better teams.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

LamarButler said:


> Most people will not admit it, but Kobe is a lot better than Jordan at a lot of things. Im not saying hes better than Jordan, since he needs to put it all together and lead his team to more success. But Kobe is the better ballhandler, 3 point shooter, and free throw shooter. And Kobe is playing in a harder league with zone defenses, advanced scouting, bigger, stronger, more athletic and skilled players and just plain better teams.


That all has to do with scoring, though, and I think Kobe can safely be considered at this point, if not better or as good a scorer as MJ, as certainly on that same level. It's really the defense that seperates the two so much. As a scorer, Kobe's right there.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> Say what you want, and I don't like Jemele Hill either, but this is indisputable



Again, what the hell does what they do off the court have to do with anything. Most reasonable people who say that Kobe isn't as good as MJ was say so based on his on-court merits. Who gives a damn about their off the court activities?

Dude, stop worrying about what MJ did off the court. That's all you bring up, and it's weak.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

LamarButler said:


> Most people will not admit it, but Kobe is a lot better than Jordan at a lot of things. Im not saying hes better than Jordan, since he needs to put it all together and lead his team to more success. But Kobe is the better ballhandler, 3 point shooter, and free throw shooter. And Kobe is playing in a harder league with zone defenses, advanced scouting, bigger, stronger, more athletic and skilled players and just plain better teams.



Kobe handles the ball more than MJ did. That does not mean he's a better ballhandler.

Kobe shoots more threes than MJ did. It's a bigger part of Kobe's game than MJ's.

And Kobe is not a better free throw shooter. Look it up.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Well... this is just a bad article.

Jordan was a better defender... I don't think that can honestly be disputed.

The author mentions revisionist history... and then makes it seem like MJ TKO'd Steve Kerr and Will Perdue... punched, maybe... "punched out"... well, that seems a bit more severe. And Jordan's numbers... even with Kobe's recent outburst... are simply better.


Also... cheating on your wife is a terrible thing... but should never be compared to what Kobe was accused of doing in Colorado...

Overall, a pretty poorly written article.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Better teammate- no he is not

Better 3pt shooter- thats really irrelevant

Better player- no he is not

Therefore Kobe is not better than MJ

And the wife thing compared to what Kobe did or was accused of doing is just a very poor piece of arguement.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Kobe Bryant is quickly becoming overrated. Can the guy get out of the first round of the playoffs WITHOUT SHAQ before being compared to a guy who has 6 rings without riding the cottails of a big man?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Why is she talking about Rectal exams?

And no, Kobe isn't MJ, but right now he's about as close as we'll get for a long while.

A) He's not the caliber of defender MJ was consistently

B) He's not nearly the passer/playmaker MJ was. I rarely ever see Kobe make the clever move unless it's him about to score. MJ was a better passer than people mention.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

So how many honestly think Kobe is the best player to ever play the game? 

IMO I don't even think he is better than Shaq


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> So how many honestly think Kobe is the best player to ever play the game?
> 
> IMO I don't even think he is better than Shaq


Jeez...noone say "I do" to that.


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## AUNDRE (Jul 11, 2005)

Jizzy said:


> Kobe Bryant is quickly becoming overrated. Can the guy get out of the first round of the playoffs WITHOUT SHAQ before being compared to a guy who has 6 rings without riding the cottails of a big man?


Jordan never won until Pippen came through with his 17/5/6 (at least) a game

with that said... shes reaching, Kobe isnt anywhere near a defender of the caliber of Jordan (although defenders got away with alot more back when Jordan played then they do now)


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> Kobe Bryant is quickly becoming overrated. Can the guy get out of the first round of the playoffs WITHOUT SHAQ before being compared to a guy who has 6 rings without riding the cottails of a big man?


he's had 2 years without shaq. jordan didn't win a title until his 7th year (didn't win anything without a hof sf and all-star caliber pf). was it crazy to compare jordan to magic or bird in 1990?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Jeez...noone say "I do" to that.


But there are some ppl who really believe that Kobe is better than Jordan, and well since Jordan is supposedly the greatest player to ever play the game well.....


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

AUNDRE said:


> Jordan never won until Pippen came through with his 17/5/6 (at least) a game
> 
> with that said... shes reaching, Kobe isnt anywhere near a defender of the caliber of Jordan (although defenders got away with alot more back when Jordan played then they do now)


I'll admit, where people automatically fail in trying to compare Kobe and MJ is by factoring in team success. When you're comparing players, the only criteria you should use is individual IMO.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

kobe's great...

but what kobe has always done is been great for stretches, he doesn't play at this level for 82 games like jordan did...

thats a big difference... if kobe played at this level (not neceserily (SP?) scoring 50 a game) but the level of ball he's playing now for the whole season, he'd be the undisputed MVP....

That's not really a good article... and it also wont be long before people will be talking down about kobe and his "selfishness"....


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> Kobe handles the ball more than MJ did. That does not mean he's a better ballhandler.
> 
> Kobe shoots more threes than MJ did. It's a bigger part of Kobe's game than MJ's.
> 
> And Kobe is not a better free throw shooter. Look it up.


I cant show you any stats to prove Kobe's a better ballhandler, but if you watch Kobe you'll just see he has incredible handles and he's a lot more creative and fluid with his dribble.

Kobe is a much better 3 point shooter. The most Michael Jordan made in a season was 111, Kobe's made more than that many times.

And yes Kobe is a better free throw shooter. His career average is 84% and MJ's is 83. If Kobe keeps up his great percentage (85 and 86) that hes had these past 2 years he'll really seperate himself as a FT shooter.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> Kobe handles the ball more than MJ did. That does not mean he's a better ballhandler.
> 
> Kobe shoots more threes than MJ did. It's a bigger part of Kobe's game than MJ's.
> 
> And Kobe is not a better free throw shooter. Look it up.


Kobe is shooting .838 for FT %, MJ is .835 .


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## AUNDRE (Jul 11, 2005)

O2K said:


> kobe's great...
> 
> but what kobe has always done is been great for stretches, he doesn't play at this level for 82 games like jordan did...
> 
> ...


Kobes gone for 25+ 48 of the 70 games this year.... thats pretty consistent considering hes shooting at a 47% clip



argument I was having with one of my people a few weeks ago though..... if you put Kobe in Jordans era on the Bulls, same exact team except hes in MJs place, how many rings do yall think the Bulls would have won and would his individual stats be better then Jordans?


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

The reason people looked over MJ's problems off the court and not Kobe's is because we live in the information age. Thousands of online sites, millions of blogs, message boards like this, etc. If MJ was playing today surely his personal problems would be splattered all over the internet.


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## Like A Breath (Jun 16, 2003)

> Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing will be among the best centers ever, but none of them affected the league the way Shaq and Tim Duncan have. There are two two-time MVPs in Kobe's own conference (Duncan, Nash), which is a problem Jordan never faced during his championship runs.


Bye bye credibility. Jordan never had to deal with big bad Duncan and Nash? That's because he was beating their equals(Malone and Stockton) AT THE SAME TIME in the finals. Not to mention that the Bulls had to deal the Shaq and Penny Orlando Magic, the Kemp and Payton Sonics, and the Barkeley and KJ suns among other teams on their way to championships. I would take any of those centers(maybe not Ewing over Duncan, but it's close) over today's MVP's.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

kflo said:


> he's had 2 years without shaq. jordan didn't win a title until his 7th year (didn't win anything without a hof sf and all-star caliber pf). was it crazy to compare jordan to magic or bird in 1990?


Yes, it was. It was understood that Magic and Bird were the more accomplished players... Michael had to earn it... had to win multiple titles before people put him ahead of Bird and Magic. It was really around the time of the Dream Team (and after his second title) that people annointed MJ... before that he was a star, but not the legend he is now...

Really quickly... ring count:

Michael Jordan: 6
Kobe Bryant: 3

zzzzzzzzzzz... Wake me up after Kobe's next three-peat...


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Dornado said:


> Yes, it was. It was understood that Magic and Bird were the more accomplished players... Michael had to earn it... had to win multiple titles before people put him ahead of Bird and Magic. It was really around the time of the Dream Team (and after his second title) that people annointed MJ... before that he was a star, but not the legend he is now...
> 
> Really quickly... ring count:
> 
> ...


Whatever. Bird and Magic might have been more accomplished, but he was clearly better.

It's funny people want him to win more titles, then if he actually gets to 6 people will start yapping about his supporting cast being better than Jordan's or something. He can't win.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Kobe is Better than Jordan? Come On now... really?*

ESPN just ran an article saying that Kobe is better than Jordan (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070326&sportCat=nba)because of his multiple 50+ point games. I just can't correlate that statistic with Jordan being better than argubly the best player to ever have played. I mean, it's 4 games! Jordan could have done that many times in his career, but didn't need to do so in order for his team to win. Do you guys agree with the Jordan has been surpassed by Kobe arguments or is it just people looking to replace Jordan with anyone they can?


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

Kobe is still young. 

Kobe is the youngest person to score 16,000 points. If Kobe keeps in shape, and why would you think otherwise, he could legitimately play another 10 years and come close and possibly break Kareems record. 

Rings---------------
Jordan 6
Kobe 3 
----------------------- 

Kobe is still young again.

This is something that doesn't really matter that much but dawned upon me the other day.
Who was the best dunker of all-time?

I honestly think Jordan might be the best dunker of all-time. I used to think it was Vince Carter for the longest time but after I saw some of Jordan's jams here is my analysis. More speed, more heart, more style on his jams. Jordan was and still is amazing to witness in flight. 

How could one single man be the greatest at everything he did???
Jordan comes the closest, moreso then Kobe.

Jordan set the bar and nobody all around has come close yet. The closest is Kobe that is why everybody hypes him up. Is he there yet? Not yet.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: Kobe is Better than Jordan? Come On now... really?*

I'm merging this. Thread about it already.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

In the words of Herm Edwards - "You play...to win...the game"


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Hibachi! said:


> In the words of Herm Edwards - "You play...to win...the game"


Well Bill Russell's better than everybody, case closed  

I love when people try to use one factor and make it the overrall criteria. Quite lazy.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe is Better than Jordan? Come On now... really?*



_Dre_ said:


> I'm merging this. Thread about it already.


awwww..... but mine had a poll.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

_Dre_ said:


> Whatever. Bird and Magic might have been more accomplished, but he was clearly better.
> 
> It's funny people want him to win more titles, then if he actually gets to 6 people will start yapping about his supporting cast being better than Jordan's or something. He can't win.



"he was clearly better"... uh, guy... you were 3 when MJ won his first title... Tell me what was so clear to you about MJ being better than Bird and Magic... 

titles do matter... they aren't the only criteria, but as previously mentioned... you play to win. Kobe has some work to do before he's worthy of being put in the same category as Michael Jordan... some serious work...


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## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife (Nov 9, 2004)

O2K said:


> kobe's great...
> 
> but what kobe has always done is been great for stretches, he doesn't play at this level for 82 games like jordan did...
> 
> ...


Uh, Kobe did that last year, but some people think you have to have a team with all stars and need 50 wins to be considered...


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Kobe's not even as good of a scorer as MJ. Whats even the argument for Bryant being a better player again?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Dornado said:


> "he was clearly better"... uh, guy... you were 3 when MJ won his first title... Tell me what was so clear to you about MJ being better than Bird and Magic...


Magic himself saying in his autobiography noone could touch MJ, among other things..like MJ averaging almost 40 in a season...or averaging like 35 and getting DPOY...no I wasn't there for the games, but retrospectives on the situation influence my opinion that MJ was the better player than either. You said it yourself...Bird and Magic were more accomplished...but not more skilled.



> titles do matter... they aren't the only criteria, but as previously mentioned... you play to win. Kobe has some work to do before he's worthy of being put in the same category as Michael Jordan... some serious work...


Titles don't matter. The better player is the better player, I don't care about team accomplishments. When you start factoring in team accomplishments in player vs. player comparisions, you're skewing the argument. 

Anyone saying he needs to gain team accomplishments to be considered a better player is blinded by the MJ aura, and the false notion that team accomplishments prove how great of a player you are in comparision to another.


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## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife (Nov 9, 2004)

Kobe could win 5 more titles, 3 MVPs, 6 scoring titles etc and people would still **** on him...


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Kobe's not even as good of a scorer as MJ. Whats even the argument for Bryant being a better player again?


I don't think one person has even said Kobe's better like all season. These threads keep coming up comparing them, but I've never seen anyone credible actually say Kobe was better.

I'm more interested in why she's talking about Rectal Exams in a player comparision.


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## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife (Nov 9, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> Kobe's not even as good of a scorer as MJ. Whats even the argument for Bryant being a better player again?


actually, hes better offensively...I think 81, 4 straight 50s, avg 30 a game playing with Shaq, a 9 game stretch of 40+ playing with Shaq etc, show that the reins have been held onto Kobe for far too long now....Its no coincidence that as soon as Shaq leaves, Kobe has put up some historic accomplishments...

and that is without the best SF at his side, or other all stars or HOF players....

Jordan holds the edge in D....no question....


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

_Dre_ said:


> I'll admit, where people automatically fail in trying to compare Kobe and MJ is by factoring in team success. When you're comparing players, the only criteria you should use is individual IMO.


This statement makes the most sense.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

_Dre_ said:


> Well Bill Russell's better than everybody, case closed
> 
> I love when people try to use one factor and make it the overrall criteria. Quite lazy.


No, but it does play a role... Playing for a good team skews your stats, often for the worse.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife said:


> actually, hes better offensively...I think 81, 4 straight 50s, avg 30 a game playing with Shaq, a 9 game stretch of 40+ playing with Shaq etc, show that the reins have been held onto Kobe for far too long now....Its no coincidence that as soon as Shaq leaves, Kobe has put up some historic accomplishments...
> 
> and that is without the best SF at his side, or other all stars or HOF players....
> 
> Jordan holds the edge in D....no question....


How, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jordan score MORE points, MORE efficiently?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> How, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jordan score MORE points, MORE efficiently?


Oh yeah, Jordan was a Bull...you're in here kinda late.

You shouldn't catch so much **** in this thread...Jordan really is the greatest player ever.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife said:


> Kobe could win 5 more titles, 3 MVPs, 6 scoring titles etc and people would still **** on him...


yeah.... because everyone is fawning over him for FOUR games in the regular season. I got an idea, how about Kobe achieves those accolades and then I will agree with you about the whole conspiracy theory that no one likes Kobe because he's Kobe. Jordan received an endless amount of grief for being a "ball hog" and that he couldn't lead his team to a championship. However, all of that ended when he did. A player's greatness is only measured by his success. KG will be forgotten within 5 years of retiring not because he wasn't great, but because he didn't win. 

On top of that, Jordan was just a better athlete than Kobe. He had bigger hands which allowed him to palm the ball better, could jump higher, and was more competitive than Kobe. I don't care how you slice it, if you hurt your teammates during PRACTICE inadvertantly, then you are one of the most competitive people on the planet. That's like one step below giving your son a brush-back throw during a father-son softball game.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

_Dre_ said:


> Oh yeah, Jordan was a Bull...you're in here kinda late.
> 
> You shouldn't catch so much **** in this thread...Jordan really is the greatest player ever.


I was a fan after Jordan, so I really don't have too much preferentialness for him.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

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class="gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="35">*MPG*</td> <td class="gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="35">*FG%*</td> <td class="gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="35">*3P%*</td> <td class="gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="35">*FT%*</td> <td class="gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="45">*OFF*</td> <td class="gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="45">*DEF*</td> <td class="gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="45">*RPG*</td> <td class="gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="35">*APG*</td> <td class="gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="35">*SPG*</td> <td class="gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="35">*BPG*</td> <td class="gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="35">*TO*</td> <td class="gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="35">*PF*</td> <td class="gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid" align="right" nowrap="nowrap" width="35">*PPG*</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> 84-85 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> CHI </td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 38.3</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .515</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .173</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .845</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 2.0</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 4.5</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 6.5</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 5.9</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.39</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .84</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.55</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.50</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 28.2</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> 85-86 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> CHI </td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">18</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">7</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 25.1</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .457</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .167</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .840</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.3</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 2.3</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 3.6</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.9</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.06</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 1.17</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.50</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.60</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 22.7</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> 86-87 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> CHI </td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 40.0</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .482</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .182</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .857</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 2.0</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 3.2</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 5.2</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 4.6</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.88</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 1.52</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.32</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.90</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 37.1</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> 87-88 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> CHI </td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 40.4</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .535</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .132</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .841</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.7</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 3.8</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 5.5</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 5.9</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.16</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 1.60</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.07</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.30</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 35.0</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> 88-89 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid">  CHI </td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">81</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">81</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 40.2</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .538</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .276</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .850</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.8</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 6.2</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 8.0</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 8.0</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.89</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .80</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.58</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.00</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 32.5</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> 89-90 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> CHI </td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 39.0</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .526</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .376</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .848</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.7</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 5.1</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 6.9</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 6.3</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.77</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .66</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.01</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.90</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 33.6</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> 90-91 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> CHI </td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 37.0</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .539</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .312</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .851</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.4</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 4.6</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 6.0</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 5.5</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.72</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 1.01</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.46</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.80</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 31.5</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> 91-92 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> CHI </td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">80</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">80</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 38.8</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .519</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .270</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .832</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.1</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 5.3</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 6.4</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 6.1</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.28</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .94</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.50</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.50</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 30.1</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> 92-93 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> CHI </td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">78</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">78</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 39.3</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .495</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .352</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .837</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.7</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 5.0</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 6.7</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 5.5</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.83</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .78</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.65</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.40</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 32.6</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> 94-95 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> CHI </td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">17</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">17</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 39.3</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .411</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .500</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .801</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.5</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 5.4</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 6.9</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">  5.3</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 1.76</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .76</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.06</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.80</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 26.9</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> 95-96 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> CHI </td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 37.7</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .495</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .427</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .834</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.8</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 4.8</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 6.6</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 4.3</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.20</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .51</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.40</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.40</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 30.4</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> 96-97 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> CHI </td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 37.9</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .486</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .374</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .833</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.4</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 4.5</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 5.9</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 4.3</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 1.71</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .54</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.02</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 1.90</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 29.6</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> 97-98 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> CHI </td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 38.8</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .465</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .238</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .784</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.6</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 4.2</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 5.8</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.5</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 1.72</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .55</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.26</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 1.80</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 28.7</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> 01-02 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> WAS </td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">60</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">53</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 34.9</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">  .416</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .189</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .790</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> .8</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 4.8</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 5.7</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 5.2</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 1.42</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .43</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.70</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.00</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 22.9</td> </tr> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> 02-03 </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> WAS </td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">82</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">67</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 37.0</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .445</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .291</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .821</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> .9</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 5.2</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 6.1</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.8</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 1.50</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .48</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.11</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.10</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 20.0</td> </tr> <!-- career --> <tr style="font-weight: bold;"> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> Career </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> </td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">1072</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">1039</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 38.3</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .497</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .327</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .835</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.6</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 4.7</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 6.2</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 5.3</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.35</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .80</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.73</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.60</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 30.1</td> </tr> <!-- play off --> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> Playoff </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid"> </td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">179</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right">179</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 41.8</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .487</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .332</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .828</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.7</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 4.7</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 6.4</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 5.7</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.10</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> .88</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.05</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.00</td> <td class="gSGRowEvenStatsGrid" align="right"> 33.4</td> </tr> <!-- all star --> <tr> <!-- year --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> All-Star </td> <!-- team --> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid"> </td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">13</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right">13</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 29.4</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .472</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .273</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .750</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 1.7</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 3.0</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right" width="45"> 4.7</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 4.2</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.85</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> .46</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 3.23</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 2.40</td> <td class="gSGRowOddStatsGrid" align="right"> 20.2</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> <td class="playerFileGrid" nowrap="nowrap" width="0">







</td></tr> <tr><td class="playerFileGrid" colspan="3" height="0">









That is Jordan. Kobe is nowhere near Jordan. Kobe's best season isn't nearly as good as Jordan's. Jordan averaged twice as many steals, four times as many blocks, more assists and more rebounds than Kobe. On top of that, he didn't win the MVP in his 37ppg season!

<table class="statsHeader" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="742"><tbody><tr><td class="gSGSectionTitleStatsGrid" width="738">Career Season Averages
</td> <td width="2">







</td> </tr></tbody></table> <table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" bordercolor="#cccccc" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class="title"> <td class="year">Year</td> <td class="team">Team</td> <td>G</td> <td>GS</td> <td>MPG</td> <td>FG%</td> <td>3P%</td> <td>FT%</td> <td>OFF</td> <td>DEF</td> <td>RPG</td> <td>APG</td> <td>SPG</td> <td>BPG</td> <td>TO</td> <td>PF</td> <td>PPG</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">96-97</td> <td class="tm">LAL</td> <td>71</td> <td>6</td> <td>15.5</td> <td>.417</td> <td>.375</td> <td>.819</td> <td>0.7</td> <td>1.2</td> <td>1.9</td> <td>1.3</td> <td>0.7</td> <td>0.3</td> <td>1.58</td> <td>1.40</td> <td>7.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="yr">97-98</td> <td class="tm">LAL</td> <td>79</td> <td>1</td> <td>26.0</td> <td>.428</td> <td>.341</td> <td>.794</td> <td>1.0</td> <td>2.1</td> <td>3.1</td> <td>2.5</td> <td>0.9</td> <td>0.5</td> <td>1.99</td> <td>2.30</td> <td>15.4</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">98-99</td> <td class="tm">LAL</td> <td>50</td> <td>50</td> <td>37.9</td> <td>.465</td> <td>.267</td> <td>.839</td> <td>1.1</td> <td>4.2</td> <td>5.3</td> <td>3.8</td> <td>1.4</td> <td>1.0</td> <td>3.14</td> <td>3.10</td> <td>19.9</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="yr">99-00</td> <td class="tm">LAL</td> <td>66</td> <td>62</td> <td>38.2</td> <td>.468</td> <td>.319</td> <td>.821</td> <td>1.6</td> <td>4.7</td> <td>6.3</td> <td>4.9</td> <td>1.6</td> <td>0.9</td> <td>2.76</td> <td>3.30</td> <td>22.5</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">00-01</td> <td class="tm">LAL</td> <td>68</td> <td>68</td> <td>40.9</td> <td>.464</td> <td>.305</td> <td>.853</td> <td>1.5</td> <td>4.3</td> <td>5.9</td> <td>5.0</td> <td>1.7</td> <td>0.6</td> <td>3.24</td> <td>3.30</td> <td>28.5</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="yr">01-02</td> <td class="tm">LAL</td> <td>80</td> <td>80</td> <td>38.3</td> <td>.469</td> <td>.250</td> <td>.829</td> <td>1.4</td> <td>4.1</td> <td>5.5</td> <td>5.5</td> <td>1.5</td> <td>0.4</td> <td>2.79</td> <td>2.90</td> <td>25.2</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">02-03</td> <td class="tm">LAL</td> <td>82</td> <td>82</td> <td>41.5</td> <td>.451</td> <td>.383</td> <td>.843</td> <td>1.3</td> <td>5.6</td> <td>6.9</td> <td>5.9</td> <td>2.2</td> <td>0.8</td> <td>3.51</td> <td>2.70</td> <td>30.0</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="yr">03-04</td> <td class="tm">LAL</td> <td>65</td> <td>64</td> <td>37.6</td> <td>.438</td> <td>.327</td> <td>.852</td> <td>1.6</td> <td>3.9</td> <td>5.5</td> <td>5.1</td> <td>1.7</td> <td>0.4</td> <td>2.63</td> <td>2.70</td> <td>24.0</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">04-05</td> <td class="tm">LAL</td> <td>66</td> <td>66</td> <td>40.7</td> <td>.433</td> <td>.339</td> <td>.816</td> <td>1.4</td> <td>4.5</td> <td>5.9</td> <td>6.0</td> <td>1.3</td> <td>0.8</td> <td>4.09</td> <td>2.60</td> <td>27.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="yr">05-06</td> <td class="tm">LAL</td> <td>80</td> <td>80</td> <td>41.0</td> <td>.450</td> <td>.347</td> <td>.850</td> <td>0.9</td> <td>4.4</td> <td>5.3</td> <td>4.5</td> <td>1.8</td> <td>0.4</td> <td>3.13</td> <td>2.90</td> <td>35.4</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">06-07</td> <td class="tm">LAL</td> <td>65</td> <td>65</td> <td>40.4</td> <td>.467</td> <td>.359</td> <td>.869</td> <td>1.0</td> <td>4.8</td> <td>5.8</td> <td>5.4</td> <td>1.4</td> <td>0.4</td> <td>3.43</td> <td>2.80</td> <td>31.0</td> </tr> <tr class="career"> <td class="col_1">Career</td> <td class="col_2"> </td> <td>772</td> <td>624</td> <td>36.1</td> <td>.453</td> <td>.339</td>  <td>.838</td> <td>1.2</td> <td>4.0</td> <td>5.2</td> <td>4.5</td> <td>1.5</td> <td>0.5</td> <td>2.92</td> <td>2.70</td> <td>24.5</td> </tr> <tr class="career"> <td class="col_1">All-Star</td> <td class="col_2"> </td> <td>9</td> <td>9</td> <td>29.4</td> <td>.500</td> <td>.350</td> <td>.778</td> <td>1.6</td> <td>3.4</td> <td>5.0</td> <td>5.2</td> <td>2.9</td> <td>0.4</td> <td>3.00</td> <td>3.10</td> <td>20.0</td></tr></tbody></table>
</td></tr> </tbody></table>


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

IceMan23and3 said:


> yeah.... because everyone is fawning over him for FOUR games in the regular season. I got an idea, how about Kobe achieves those accolades and then I will agree with you about the whole conspiracy theory that no one likes Kobe because he's Kobe. Jordan received an endless amount of grief for being a "ball hog" and that he couldn't lead his team to a championship. However, all of that ended when he did. A player's greatness is only measured by his success. *KG will be forgotten within 5 years of retiring not because he wasn't great, but because he didn't win.*
> 
> On top of that, Jordan was just a better athlete than Kobe. He had bigger hands which allowed him to palm the ball better, could jump higher, and was more competitive than Kobe. I don't care how you slice it, if you hurt your teammates during PRACTICE inadvertantly, then you are one of the most competitive people on the planet. That's like one step below giving your son a brush-back throw during a father-son softball game.


Just like Patrick Ewing, right?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

this article brings out interesting tidbits:



> Kobe can do everything Michael did, and even a few things Michael couldn't do.


This is true.



> Kobe is just as good a defender.


I don't agree. 



> His killer instinct is just as pronounced. He can shoot, finish and explode. And just like Jordan, the more he's pissed off, the more unstoppable he is.


This is obvious.



> At the very least, Kobe's scoring spree over the last week should put to rest any lingering doubts that he's the best player in the NBA. Yes, better than Steve Nash, who is the best point guard, but not the lethal force that Kobe is. Yes, better than Dwyane Wade, who is certainly closer to the Kobe-Jordan level than LeBron James, but D-Wade's game is not as polished as Kobe's.
> 
> Kobe's streak of four straight 50-points-plus games is something none of those players can do, and it's something that hasn't been done since Wilt Chamberlain, who had an NBA-record seven straight 50-point games.


Yup, none of those players can get to Kobe-level, scoring-wise.



> Of course, the idea that Kobe is better than Jordan -- or even the best player in this league -- is as repugnant to some folks as a rectal exam. Even though Kobe has proven himself under pressure countless times, he gets the A-Rod treatment.
> 
> Kobe can't please anyone. And it doesn't help that most people suffer from revisionist history when it comes to Jordan, forgetting that he was just as poor a teammate and a ball hog and that he ran off coach Doug Collins like Kobe ran off Phil Jackson the first time.


I like the writer adressing one of the major factors people don't like Kobe: he's too cocky, too selfish, too self-centerered, bla, bla, bla. They are all right. But Jordan was the same.



> In fact, you could argue that Jordan was even worse. Far as we know, Kobe hasn't jacked up any of his teammates the way Jordan punched out Steve Kerr and Will Perdue at practice.


This is true.



> Kobe will never be forgiven for Shaq's departure, but you're delusional if you think Jordan wouldn't have had any ego issues playing alongside a player with Shaq's star power.


If Jordan had played with Shaq, it's either:
a) he would jump ship after 2/3 years;
b) he would never be in GOAT debates.



> The best-player argument shouldn't be determined by personal dislike. But if you want to take it there, fine. Jordan was hardly the ideal husband, but only the tabloids were brave enough to venture into his personal life. And what about those gambling issues? If Jordan's life had been covered like Kobe's, we would have an entirely different opinion of His Airness.


Jordan was sheltered from the media. The "Sacred Cow". 



> Besides a different level of media scrutiny, there was definitely a difference in the level of competition during Jordan's heyday compared to now.
> 
> Yesterday's NBA player certainly was more fundamentally sound, but there's no question that today's player is bigger, stronger and faster. When Jordan played, he was a singular force that could not be equaled. Jordan was guarded by the likes of John Starks and Joe Dumars, who were fine players but weren't nearly as skilled or physically imposing as LeBron, D-Wade, Tracy McGrady or even Vince Carter.
> 
> The NBA is tougher now.


This is true. The only guy Jordan had to face who had similar athleticism and body-type was Drexler. I wander how Jordan would do being defended by guys like Ron Artest, Kobe Bryant, Bruce Bowen, Dwyane Wade, even Tracie... 



> Kobe, like Michael, is surrounded with mediocre to below-average talent,


True.



> and Phoenix, Dallas and San Antonio are all better than the Utah, Portland and the Charles Barkley-led Phoenix team that Michael met in the NBA Finals.


Debatable.



> Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing will be among the best centers ever, but none of them affected the league the way Shaq and Tim Duncan have. There are two two-time MVPs in Kobe's own conference (Duncan, Nash), which is a problem Jordan never faced during his championship runs. Seven-footers weren't launching 3s back then. Magic Johnson and the Lakers were on a downward spiral, and the Pistons were on their last legs. It was Michael and everyone else. That's not the case for Kobe.


True.



> The shame of it is that Kobe might finish his career without a MVP, even though his ability can be compared only to that of Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain. All this time we've been looking for a player who is better than Jordan, but most of us can't get beyond whether we like or dislike Kobe as a person to recognize his contributions to the game.


It's true that peeps don't recognize Kobe's greatness because of non-issues (he is a Jordan wanna-be; he copycated MJ's moves; the Colorado thing, etc.). I, at least, don't recognize Kobe's gretness because of one simple fact: he is no leader of men. But, nor was Jordan.



> Ultimately the MVP award will go to either Nash or Dirk Nowitzki, who are deserving this season, but neither is Kobe. Dallas and Phoenix are strong enough to make the playoffs without their stars. The Lakers, *however, are a lottery team without Kobe*.


the Lakers would be competing for worst team in the league if it wasn't for Kobe.

All in all, a nice article, although i don't agree with some of it.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> How, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jordan score MORE points, MORE efficiently?


playing the same role in phil jackson's offense, I'm pretty sure the numbers they put up are roughly similar. Jordan scored at a higher percentage, but his game was closer to the basket.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> How, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jordan score MORE points, MORE efficiently?


playing the same role in phil jackson's offense, I'm pretty sure the numbers they put up are roughly similar. Jordan scored at a higher percentage, but his game was closer to the basket. Same reason Dwyane Wade puts up the percentages he does, yet no one will say hes better than Kobe in terms of putting the ball in the basket.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Drewbs said:


> playing the same role in phil jackson's offense, I'm pretty sure the numbers they put up are roughly similar. Jordan scored at a higher percentage, but his game was closer to the basket. Same reason Dwyane Wade puts up the percentages he does, yet no one will say hes better than Kobe in terms of putting the ball in the basket.


If you had two players that averaged the same amount of points yet one did it in a higher percentage and fewer shot attempts I'd say that the player is better in terms of putting the ball in the basket.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Hibachi! said:


> If you had two players that averaged the same amount of points yet one did it in a higher percentage and fewer shot attempts I'd say that the player is better in terms of putting the ball in the basket.


I think the difference between Wade/Lebron/anyone else and Kobe are actually the methods they use putting the ball in the basket. 

Kobe has proven himself as the most talented in terms of having the best overrall arsenal, and right now the only comparable comparision in skillset is MJ. Once you get close in comparision as far as talent and ability, you can use percentages and such to decide the debate, which is where Jordan wins IMO.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Jordan made a movie with Bugs Bunny and Danny DeVito. Can Kobe claim that?

Jordan was better at everything than anyone's ever been at anything. I know this because I watched him when I was a kid, and I owned a pair of his sneakers.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Rawse said:


> Jordan made a movie with Bugs Bunny and Danny DeVito. Can Kobe claim that?
> 
> Jordan was better at everything than anyone's ever been at anything. I know this because I watched him when I was a kid, and I owned a pair of his sneakers.


Spike Lee and ESPN ruined Michael Jordan.


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

LamarButler said:


> Kobe is playing in a harder league with zone defenses, advanced scouting, bigger, stronger, more athletic and skilled players and just plain better teams.


Defense was much tougher/harder/better in Jordan's day. Kobe never would have scored 81 points back then. And Jordan would proably average 50 ppg now days with the hand check fouls and the weak defense (I'm obviously exaggerating a bit but you get my point).


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Rawse said:


> Jordan made a movie with Bugs Bunny and Danny DeVito. Can Kobe claim that?
> 
> Jordan was better at everything than anyone's ever been at anything. I know this because I watched him when I was a kid, and I owned a pair of his sneakers.


This is the best. You win for the night. 

These Jordan-Kobe threads are so retarded. 

First of all, the rosey glow around Jordan's legacy is quite sickening. I think kflo said it in another thread, but people pick and choose parts of his career and make into one supergreat player. You'd think Jordan was winning MVP awards, defensive player of the year awards, putting 37 a game with 8 rebounds and 8 assists, along with winning titles every year the way people talk about him. Truth is, when he was putting up huge numbers and playing his best defense, he was exactly where Kobe is, losing because he didn't have a good team beside him. When Jordan was winning titles, his statistics weren't that amazing and his defense wasn't either. Jordan was really really great, and in his prime was clearly a better player than Kobe is, but some of this revisionist history has to stop. 

Second of all, I think that people who hate Kobe like to see him compared to Jordan because it gives them a chance to tear him down knowing that it's pretty difficult to look good in comparison to Jordan. There are some Kobe fanatics who go out on a limb and say he is better than Jordan, but they are a lot more rare in my opinion.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Fray said:


> Defense was much tougher/harder/better in Jordan's day. Kobe never would have scored 81 points back then. And Jordan would proably average 50 ppg now days with the hand check fouls and the weak defense (I'm obviously exaggerating a bit but you get my point).


Jordan played one-on-one in the perimeter.

Kobe would score truckloads if he had to play like that.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Fray said:


> Defense was much tougher/harder/better in Jordan's day. Kobe never would have scored 81 points back then. And Jordan would proably average 50 ppg now days with the hand check fouls and the weak defense (I'm obviously exaggerating a bit but you get my point).


Zone defense pretty much offsets that, though. I don't doubt that Kobe wouldn't have had much trouble scoring big back then, just as I'm sure MJ would have certainly tore it up nowadays. Still, whether they'd be significantly more or less effective, offensively, if they switched eras with each other is pretty much a guessing game. I doubt there would be a very big fall-off for either one, though.


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

Jordan was double teamed plenty in his day, and it's not like zone defense is played 24/7 in the NBA. Man to man is much more common than zone.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Anyone under 21 should leave the thread because it automatically means you think Jordan is god, no matter what you post.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Jordan played one-on-one in the perimeter.
> 
> Kobe would score truckloads if he had to play like that.


You know it is somewhat obvious that you like Kobe and dislike Jordan.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Fray said:


> *Jordan was double teamed plenty in his day,* and it's not like zone defense is played 24/7 in the NBA. Man to man is much more common than zone.


Yeah, whatever...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Ras said:


> You know it is somewhat obvious that you like Kobe and dislike Jordan.


Not really. 

I kinda think of them as being the same ball player.

What pisses me off is people ignoring that Jordan and Kobe played in different eras...


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

I think Kobe plays in a tougher era of perimeter players. IMO, this is the golden age of perimeter players and Kobe has to face more direct challenges than Jordan had to.

That said, Kobe is definitely significantly behind Jordan as a player. For this season and last season, he's been comparable to Jordan as a scorer. It remains to be seen if this is a burst (McGrady had a similar burst prior to his back injuries really limiting his consistent explosiveness) or a rest-of-career thing as it was for Jordan.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> Again, what the hell does what they do off the court have to do with anything. Most reasonable people who say that Kobe isn't as good as MJ was say so based on his on-court merits. Who gives a damn about their off the court activities?
> 
> Dude, stop worrying about what MJ did off the court. That's all you bring up, and it's weak.


Don't be foolish and think for a second that his off the court perception has nothing to do with the mystique and legend around Jordan. It plays a huge part as time passes, considering how memorable it is. I mean he had a MOVIE!

All of that counts. I mean, Bill Russell has 11 titles, but he's not cherished, and plenty other players have many titles and many accolades, but Jordan is the most memorable.

We grew up with the motto "Be like Mike"

The commercials, the sneakers, the image - ALL of it plays a part and THAT is what truly separates Kobe and Jordan. That is the one thing Kobe will NEVER attain. It's far too soon after Jordan's retirement, and Kobe's career overlapped one of the biggest and most recognizable faces on the PLANET.

So don't be naive.


edit* lol glad to see im not the only one who remembers Space Jam


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Tragedy said:


> Don't be foolish and think for a second that his off the court perception has nothing to do with the mystique and legend around Jordan. It plays a huge part as time passes, considering how memorable it is. I mean he had a MOVIE!
> 
> All of that counts. I mean, Bill Russell has 11 titles, but he's not cherished, and plenty other players have many titles and many accolades, but Jordan is the most memorable.
> 
> ...


Interesting post...

Do americans see david Beckham as one of the greta soccer players in the world?


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Tragedy said:


> Don't be foolish and think for a second that his off the court perception has nothing to do with the mystique and legend around Jordan. It plays a huge part as time passes, considering how memorable it is. I mean he had a MOVIE!
> 
> All of that counts. I mean, Bill Russell has 11 titles, but he's not cherished, and plenty other players have many titles and many accolades, but Jordan is the most memorable.
> 
> ...


Maybe Jordan is held so high (higher then Kobe) because of his play as well. It seems possible, no?


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> Interesting post...
> 
> Do americans see david Beckham as one of the greta soccer players in the world?


Soccer? Huh? lol just playing.

I have no opinion on Beckham, so I wonder this also. But then again, why should I argue anything concerning Jordan with someone who's user name is Air Jordan 23. lol.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Ras said:


> Maybe Jordan is held so high (higher then Kobe) because of his play as well. It seems possible, no?


After some time, like Sir Patchwork and others allude to, Jordan's career becomes a little more foggy as people forget about Scottie Pippen altogether, and the quality cast of teammates he played with. They forget his criticisms early in his career, as if 7 years of his career just vanished, 7 years which serve to boost his overrall stats, but where his best play was not found. 

He had a stigma back then too, and him winning was not some magical transformation he did, where he started trusting his teammates and playing a team game, but rather gaining teammates he COULD trust to carry their share of the burden.

I'm not talking about him being held high, or being held higher than Kobe, what I am talking about is him being held at an almost demi-god level, and about those who would trash a player to pump up Jordan.

Our memories are recalled fondly. I can think back to some awful times in my life and find some good, although when I was experiencing it it was far from it.

The fact that Kobe draws such comparison when he still has many years to play is incredible. Think of all those compared to Jordan and how they fared. Only one can challenge it and it's Kobe.

He's still young, and winning even just one title on his own would do A LOT for moving him up the ladder of all time greats.

and like Minstrel said, this is the golden age of perimeter players. You have guys who are superstar level players, all star players, great players, good players.

Name all the great perimeter players we have now - then remember how years ago we only had Kobe-Tmac-and to a lesser, but still relevant degree, Paul Pierce. And although we have a couple elite teams, there is more parity in the league than there was in Jordan's time. It's even harder now that it was 5 years ago.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

> Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing will be among the best centers ever, but none of them affected the league the way Shaq and Tim Duncan have. There are two two-time MVPs in Kobe's own conference (Duncan, Nash), which is a problem Jordan never faced during his championship runs.


LOL that's because MJ racked up 5 of them, and was robbed of at least two more.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

Dornado said:


> Yes, it was. It was understood that Magic and Bird were the more accomplished players... Michael had to earn it... had to win multiple titles before people put him ahead of Bird and Magic. It was really around the time of the Dream Team (and after his second title) that people annointed MJ... before that he was a star, but not the legend he is now...
> 
> Really quickly... ring count:
> 
> ...


By that logic... Devean George has 3 rings, and Wade has 1 ring... so I guess Devean George > Dwyane Wade.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Fray said:


> Defense was much tougher/harder/better in Jordan's day. Kobe never would have scored 81 points back then. And Jordan would proably average 50 ppg now days with the hand check fouls and the weak defense (I'm obviously exaggerating a bit but you get my point).


Were they really? Back when just about the entire NBA shot around 50% from the field and averaged >100 ppg?


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Drewbs said:


> Were they really? Back when just about the entire NBA shot around 50% from the field and averaged >100 ppg?


When we went through the days of Detroit and San Antonio reigning over the NBA many complained about the problem the NBA had for a while. Guys like Popovic, Brown, Van Gundy etc. were slowing down the game to a slow crawl. It resulted in a slower less team ppg overall.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Interesting post...
> 
> Do americans see david Beckham as one of the greta soccer players in the world?


No because we don't/didn't hear he's GOOD too much, just a celebrity.

Ronaldinho, however, after 1 or 2 commercials with Nike we were convinced. He could be much worse by 2010 but with good commercials we'd buy him again.

Clint Mathis, with the mohawk, stood out on the 2002 squad... don't know about his true impact.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Hibachi! said:


> When we went through the days of Detroit and San Antonio reigning over the NBA many complained about the problem the NBA had for a while. Guys like Popovic, Brown, Van Gundy etc. were slowing down the game to a slow crawl. It resulted in a slower less team ppg overall.


But referring to the post I quoted, in comparison to Jordan's 37 ppg year, Kobe couldn't have put up the numbers he did last season that year when 12 of the league's 23 teams averaged over 110 ppg? I find that somewhat hard to believe.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Great thread. Can people stop rehashing the same crap over and over? 

We know how many titles Jordan and Kobe won, we know Kobe is not as good as Jordan, we know, we know... so why do we get the same people in every Kobe thread stating the same exact points over and over again?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Dornado said:


> Yes, it was. It was understood that Magic and Bird were the more accomplished players... Michael had to earn it... had to win multiple titles before people put him ahead of Bird and Magic. It was really around the time of the Dream Team (and after his second title) that people annointed MJ... before that he was a star, but not the legend he is now...


this is revisionist. yes, it was understood that magic and bird were more ACCOMPLISHED, but to say they couldn't be compared as players is ludicrous. many, many thought jordan was the best player in the world. probably a majority at that point. by the '91 finals, you certainly had a minority thinking magic had the advantage over jordan. and you certainly had many thinking jordan was better than either ever was. that's right - many thought the 0 titled jordan was a better player than the 5 titled magic ever was. unbelievable, right? well, that's the way it was. in 1990. heck, jordan had his supporters in '88 (mvp year) even after magic had just won his 5th (i personally remember having arguments with friends in 1987, magic's absolute peak). now, in the post-jordan era, it's absurd to compare players as players until their accomplishments are equal.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Eternal said:


> By that logic... Devean George has 3 rings, and Wade has 1 ring... so I guess Devean George > Dwyane Wade.



No...Wade has to earn it before he's mentioned in the same breath as George.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

_Dre_ said:


> No...Wade has to earn it before he's mentioned in the same breath as George.



If you guys can't tell the difference between a role player and the leader of a championship team, then this conversation is pretty pointless... it may also explain a good portion of the posts in this thread...


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

kflo said:


> this is revisionist. yes, it was understood that magic and bird were more ACCOMPLISHED, but to say they couldn't be compared as players is ludicrous. many, many thought jordan was the best player in the world. probably a majority at that point. by the '91 finals, you certainly had a minority thinking magic had the advantage over jordan. and you certainly had many thinking jordan was better than either ever was. that's right - many thought the 0 titled jordan was a better player than the 5 titled magic ever was. unbelievable, right? well, that's the way it was. in 1990. heck, jordan had his supporters in '88 (mvp year) even after magic had just won his 5th (i personally remember having arguments with friends in 1987, magic's absolute peak). now, in the post-jordan era, it's absurd to compare players as players until their accomplishments are equal.


Great post.


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## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

Dornado said:


> If you guys can't tell the difference between a role player and the leader of a championship team, then this conversation is pretty pointless... it may also explain a good portion of the posts in this thread...



first off it's called a joke. you can laugh, it's okay, no one's looking.

secondly, what is telling is that we can't go a week on these boards (or any other sports/nba boards out there) without comparing kobe to an alltime great, and that's been going on since he left highschool. For ten years it's always been kobe vs. fill-in-the blank. the fact is this debate will only get more and more heated as kobe's career moves forward. it used to be a joke when someone compared ANYONE to jordan. you would giggle, roll your eyes, and move on. i think the outcry of jordan love is showing just how close kobe is getting to this untouchable legacy.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

That's the definition of a fluff article. I hate how writers think that

writing like this.

makes their articles.

more interesting.

and convincing.

It must be because.

if you write one sentence paragraphs.

you must really be confident.

that they are true.

---------

That same article has been written one million times with the sentences mixed around. It's lazy writing. Say something new. Make a new observation if you must write Kobe/Jordan article #934,934,349.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

KillWill said:


> first off it's called a joke. you can laugh, it's okay, no one's looking.
> 
> secondly, what is telling is that we can't go a week on these boards (or any other sports/nba boards out there) without comparing kobe to an alltime great, and that's been going on since he left highschool. For ten years it's always been kobe vs. fill-in-the blank. the fact is this debate will only get more and more heated as kobe's career moves forward. it used to be a joke when someone compared ANYONE to jordan. you would giggle, roll your eyes, and move on. i think the outcry of jordan love is showing just how close kobe is getting to this untouchable legacy.


It was a joke.. but it was a joke to make a point... and a post above made the same point... so, I responded...

I will grant you that Kobe is really the only guy you can compare to MJ at this point... from both a skill-set and statistical vantage point... and it definitely makes for a more heated debate.

But MJ was still clearly better... and I'd love to hear the credentials of the author of that article..


----------



## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

I think many have forgotten or maybe never seen how great of a scoring MJ was. Evrybody keeps bringing up 81 points, 4 fifty point games in a row. Well here is what MJ accomplish just on the offensive side:

Holds the NBA All-Star Game career record for highest scoring average (21.3 ppg)

Recorded only triple-double in All-Star Game history, with 14 points, 11 rebounds and 11 assists, in the 1997 NBA 
All-Star Game in Cleveland

Passed Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to become the NBA's all-time leading playoff scorer (5,762 points) during the 1998 Eastern 
Conference Finals

Passed Dennis Johnson into fourth place on the NBA's all-time playoff assists list (1,006), in an 88-83 victory over the 
Indiana Pacers in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals in 1997-98

Scored his 29,000th career point, posting a game-high 41 points, 6 rebounds and 4 assists, in a 107-93 win over the 
Minnesota Timberwolves on 4/3

Broke Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's NBA record by scoring in double-digits for the 788th consecutive game, scoring a game-high 
33 points, against the Minnesota Timberwolves on 12/30/97

Holds the NBA record for most seasons leading league in scoring -- 10; highest points per game average (minimum 400 
games or 10,000 points) -- 31.5; most seasons leading league in field goals made -- 10; and most seasons leading league 
in field goals attempted -- 10

Shares the NBA career record for most seasons with 2,000 or more points -- 11; and most consecutive seasons leading 
league in scoring --7 (1986-87 through 1992-93)

Holds single-game records for most free throws made in one half -- 20 (December 30, 1992, at Miami); and most 
free-throws attempted in one half -- 23 (December 30, 1992, at Miami)

Shares single-game records for most free throws made in one quarter -- 14 (December 30, 1992, at Miami); and most 
free-throws attempted in one quarter -- 16 (December 30, 1992, at Miami)

Holds the NBA Finals record for highest single-series scoring average -- 41.0 ppg (1993)

Holds NBA Finals record for most three-point field goals made -- 42; and most consecutive games with 20 or more points 
-- 35 (June 2, 1991-June 14, 1998)

Holds the NBA Finals single-game record for most points in one half -- 35 (June 3, 1992 vs. Portland)

Shares NBA Finals single-game records for most field goals made in one half -- 14; and most three-point field goals made 
in one half -- 6 (June 3, 1992, vs. Portland); most free throws made in one quarter -- 9 (June 11, 1997 vs. Utah); and 
most free throws attempted in one half -- 15 (June 4, 1997, vs. Utah)

Holds the NBA Playoffs record for most points -- 5,987; highest points-per-game average (minimum 25 games or 625 points) 
-- 33.4 ppg; most field goals attempted -- 4,497; most free throws made -- 1,463; most free throws attempted -- 1,766; 
and most steals -- 376

Scored a career playoff-high 63 points against the Boston Celtics on 4/20/86, setting an NBA record for most points in a 
playoff game

Holds single-game playoff records for most free throws made in one quarter -- 13; and most free throws attempted in one 
quarter -- 14 (May 21, 1991, vs. Detroit)

Shares single-game playoff records for most field goals made -- 24 (May 1, 1998, vs. Cleveland); most field goals 
attempted in one half -- 25 (May 1, 1988, vs. Cleveland); and most three-point field goals made in one half -- 6 (June 
6, 1992, vs. Portland)

HIT FOR 50 POINTS OR MORE 37 TIMES

And at the age of 38 he did this:

YouTube - Michael Jordan 2002: NBA Record 51 pts at age 38


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I don't know what it is, but all of Jordan's big scoring games seemed like a stretch to me. Like when he scored 69, he needed an overtime and although 69 is a hell of a lot of points, it seemed like it took Mike a lot of energy and focus to do it. The Celtics game too had that feel. Kobe will go out and put up the most effortless 60 points you'll ever see. Even after the 81 point performance he looked ready to do it again. He played 41 minutes that game, which averages out to 97 points per 48 minutes, which is how many minutes Wilt played in his 100 point game. 

To me it's pretty clear cut as far as scoring goes. If Kobe and Jordan were to go head to head on one of their average nights, Jordan would come out on top, but if they were to go head to head with both of them at their absolute best, Kobe would undoubtedly come out on top.


----------



## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't know what it is, but all of Jordan's big scoring games seemed like a stretch to me. Like when he scored 69, he needed an overtime and although 69 is a hell of a lot of points, it seemed like it took Mike a lot of energy and focus to do it. The Celtics game too had that feel. Kobe will go out and put up the most effortless 60 points you'll ever see. Even after the 81 point performance he looked ready to do it again. He played 41 minutes that game, which averages out to 97 points per 48 minutes, which is how many minutes Wilt played in his 100 point game.
> 
> To me it's pretty clear cut as far as scoring goes. If Kobe and Jordan were to go head to head on one of their average nights, Jordan would come out on top, but if they were to go head to head with both of them at their absolute best, Kobe would undoubtedly come out on top.



LOL, Mike put more effort into scoring than Kobe...

Well, I guess he had to seeing how, in the 69 point game, for instance, MJ also had 18 REBOUNDS.

MJ, even in his big scoring games, played defense and rebounded. Kobe basically just scores in his big games, and nothing else.

Check the stats from his recent outburst for proof. Hell, check his 81-point game for more.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> LOL, Mike put more effort into scoring than Kobe...
> 
> Well, I guess he had to seeing how, in the 69 point game, for instance, MJ also had 18 REBOUNDS.
> 
> ...


Mike was a better all-around player than Kobe, but in terms of scoring it has less to do with effort. Kobe just has a much more polished and versatile scoring arsenal than Michael ever did, which makes him much more unstoppable when he is feeling it.


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## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't know what it is, but all of Jordan's big scoring games seemed like a stretch to me. Like when he scored 69, he needed an overtime and although 69 is a hell of a lot of points, it seemed like it took Mike a lot of energy and focus to do it. The Celtics game too had that feel. Kobe will go out and put up the most effortless 60 points you'll ever see. Even after the 81 point performance he looked ready to do it again. He played 41 minutes that game, which averages out to 97 points per 48 minutes, which is how many minutes Wilt played in his 100 point game.
> 
> To me it's pretty clear cut as far as scoring goes. If Kobe and Jordan were to go head to head on one of their average nights, Jordan would come out on top, but if they were to go head to head with both of them at their absolute best, Kobe would undoubtedly come out on top.


Don't even dare compare the raptors to the Celtics. Jordan did this against a legendary team in their backyard in the playoff at the age of 23 !!!!!! Most important statistic is that Jordan also played defense in that game. How was Kobe's defense?


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Jorbroni said:


> Don't even dare compare the raptors to the Celtics. Jordan did this against a legendary team in their backyard in the playoff at the age of 23 !!!!!! Most important statistic is that Jordan also played defense in that game. How was Kobe's defense?


Who won?


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## g-dog-rice#2 (Jan 29, 2006)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> LOL, Mike put more effort into scoring than Kobe...
> 
> Well, I guess he had to seeing how, in the 69 point game, for instance, MJ also had 18 REBOUNDS.
> 
> ...


That's not true. The best example I can think of is the 2001 playoff series against the Kings. In game 4, Kobe scored 48 points to finish off the Kings - but he also had 16 rebounds.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Jorbroni said:


> Don't even dare compare the raptors to the Celtics. Jordan did this against a legendary team in their backyard in the playoff at the age of 23 !!!!!! Most important statistic is that Jordan also played defense in that game. How was Kobe's defense?


Kobe's done it against the Mavericks, who are as close to the Celtics as any modern team gets if you want to draw parallels. Kobe did 62 in three quarters, Jordan did 63 in 4 quarters plus two overtimes. Now go read my previous post to further understand my point. As far as Kobe's defense, it was fine, they won by 30.


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## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Who won?


:whatever: The point wasn't about wins and losses. It was about who had the higher level of difficulty when scoring those points.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> *Kobe's done it against the Mavericks, who are as close to the Celtics as any modern team gets if you want to draw parallels.* Kobe did 62 in three quarters, Jordan did 63 in 4 quarters plus two overtimes. Now go read my previous post to further understand my point. As far as Kobe's defense, it was fine, they won by 30.


WHAT???


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> WHAT???


They probably are...them or the Spurs. Chill out, he didn't say they were better or as good, but they're the best team right now, and they play a bit similiar to the Celtics.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

_Dre_ said:


> Just like Patrick Ewing, right?


Worse. Ewing was in the NBA's biggest market and had a lot of playoff success... just didn't win it all, but he was in the conference finals quite a bit.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Watch the two games people. Jordan was operating with plenty of space, one-on-one, over and over. Because of the zone defense rules, you could easily say the Mavs team defense was more difficult for Kobe to score on than it was for MJ to score on that great Celtics team.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Jorbroni said:


> :whatever: The point wasn't about wins and losses. It was about who had the higher level of difficulty when scoring those points.


Well you brought defense into it and made it look like Jordan's points were so much harder than Kobe's like he wasn't playing against NBA players, so I brought the win into it. 

Bottomline, he scored 12 more points in 2 less *quarters*. C'mon man, get off it.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

bballlife said:


> Watch the two games people. Jordan was operating with plenty of space, one-on-one, over and over. Because of the zone defense rules, you could easily say the Mavs team defense was more difficult for Kobe to score on than it was for MJ to score on that great Celtics team.



Plus the Mavs' athletes were closer to Kobe than anyone on that Celtics team aside from DJ, _maybe_.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HB said:


> WHAT???


We're talking about a 65 win type team, who is built around Dirk who is as close to Bird as anyone in the game in terms of style of play. Mavericks are also deep like those Celtics teams. The parallels are there. I didn't say they were better or worse, because it's different eras, but the Mavericks are the best in the league this year and were 3rd last year.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

_Dre_ said:


> Plus the Mavs' athletes were closer to Kobe than anyone on that Celtics team aside from DJ, _maybe_.




Very true.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

We all know Kobe can shoot lights out, and so did Jordan... but that's where the comparison ends. That and the fact that they're both black and pee standing up. Their personalites are completely different. Jordan left his mean streak on the court, Kobe doesn't. 

I have proof that Kobe is a bad person. Here is a spot on television in which he play against a bunch of 5-year olds in order to get McDonalds. The dude is worth MILLIONS and he has to be a ringer for a little kid's game? What a jerk! Unlike Jordan who saved the 'Toons from being enslaved by the Nerdlucks on Moon Mountain. Jordan= likes little kids and protects their heroes. Kobe= beats little kids in basketball.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RhtwO7uZpOg"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RhtwO7uZpOg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-U34A7tO7eA"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-U34A7tO7eA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

IceMan23and3 said:


> We all know Kobe can shoot lights out, and so did Jordan... but that's where the comparison ends. That and the fact that they're both black and pee standing up. Their personalites are completely different. Jordan left his mean streak on the court, Kobe doesn't.
> 
> I have proof that Kobe is a bad person. Here is a spot on television in which he play against a bunch of 5-year olds in order to get McDonalds. The dude is worth MILLIONS and he has to be a ringer for a little kid's game? What a jerk! Unlike Jordan who saved the 'Toons from being enslaved by the Nerdlucks on Moon Mountain. Jordan= likes little kids and protects their heroes. Kobe= beats little kids in basketball.
> 
> ...


Rawse has the market cornered on these kinds of jokes. Sorry.


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## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Plus the Mavs' athletes were closer to Kobe than anyone on that Celtics team aside from DJ, _maybe_.



Since when did being athletic makes a NBA player better defensively. I'm sick of people bringing up that Kobe plays against better athletes. So What.. Vince is one of the most athletic players in the league. Is he a great defensive player? The big difference between the players now and the players back in the days is passion, heart, and defensive fundamentals.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Jorbroni said:


> Since when did being athletic makes a NBA player better defensively. I'm sick of people bringing up that Kobe plays against better athletes. So What.. Vince is one of the most athletic players in the league. Is he a great defensive player? The big difference between the players now and the players back in the days is passion, heart, and defensive fundamentals.


Since when did being athletic make a player better defensively? Wow.


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## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Since when did being athletic make a player better defensively? Wow.


:nonono: What I meant by my statement was just because a player is more athletic doesn't make him a better defensive player. If you would have read the rest of my post you would have understood that.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Jorbroni said:


> The big difference between the players now and the players back in the days is passion, heart


Courtesy of _Radio Days_:

"Today's story is about a baseball player. His name was Kirby Kyle, a lean southpaw from Tennessee. He played for the old St. Louis Cardinals. He threw fast, and he had a good curve ball. And all the hitters knew it. He was a kid with a great future. But one day, he went hunting. He loved to hunt...just like his father and his father's father.

Chasing a rabbit, he stumbled, and his rifle went off. The bullet entered his leg. Two days later, it was amputated. They said he would never pitch again. But the next season, he was back. He had one leg...but he had something more important. He had heart.

The following winter, another accident cost Kirby Kyle an arm. Fortunately not his pitching arm. He had one leg and one arm...but more than that, he had heart.

The next winter, going after a duck, his gun misfired. He was blind...but he had _instinct_ as to where to throw the baseball. Instinct...and _heart_.

The following year...Kirby Kyle was run over by a truck and killed. The following season, he won 18 games...in the Big League in the sky. 

This has been Bill Kern with another favorite sports legend."


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Jorbroni said:


> :nonono: What I meant by my statement was just because a player is more athletic doesn't make him a better defensive player. If you would have read the rest of my post you would have understood that.



I read your whole post.

And a) there's no difference in the passion/heart the players on todays' winning teams have compared to teams back then, so that's just baseless. I don't know where this rhetoric came from, but it's not true. There's no measure on passion or heart. People let a few players define a generation, and that's just silly.

And my main point was that a player being athletic helps him become a better defensive player this day and age I never said merely being athletic makes you good. 

Where your misconception there lies is within you ignoring the fact that other than a select few athletes, the game was played on an even playing field athletically. Also without the zone, the game was focused more on one on one defense, where I think toughness and that sort of thing defined the best defenders moreso than athletic ability. It was a slower, floorbound game back then, and MJ, a guy who'd still be a freak of nature today, had field day jumping over and blowing by the best defenders, because *athletically* they were inferior. 

My point was in today's game, where players are on an even field athletically for the most part, the gap in athleticism is smaller now than it was then, making Kobe's feat harder IMO, further considering he scored 12 more points in 2 less quarters. 

Nowadays with zones, an athletic player can turn into an above average to good defender just by playing passing lanes and blocking shots, whereas few players would be as good at man D than in an era where man D was the norm. Defense is easier to play nowadays.


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

Jizzy said:


> Kobe Bryant is quickly becoming overrated. Can the guy get out of the first round of the playoffs WITHOUT SHAQ before being compared to a guy who has 6 rings without riding the cottails of a big man?



I couldn't have said it any better


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> I couldn't have said it any better


Hah! I fart in your general directions!

I could swear MJ won an MVP winning NOTHING.

I could swear one of MJ's most talked about "heroics" was the 60+ points he put on the Celtics in the playoffs; that is, if you don't mind a) the Bulls got swept in the series; b) the Bulls benefited from a phantom call to get into overtime in the game; c) The Celtics looked no troubled at all...

Kobe delivered 81 pts in one game.

He had 4 straight 50 or more points. something that MJ never did. 

and you want to talk about winning? Heck, give Kobe a sane Ron Artesr and someone like elton brand and we would see if Kobe would get 6 rings in 6 years...


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

kobe is a great scorer no doubt, possibly better than MJ, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell how much easier it is to score these days. i have a hard time believing kobe would put together a string together like he did if hand-checking and such was allowed. even so, i still believe kobe is the best player on the planet, but still has ways to go before he reaches the jordan level.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

MJ taking young Kobe to school

YouTube - Michael Jordan past his prime VS Young Kobe Bryant


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> Hah! I fart in your general directions!
> 
> I could swear MJ won an MVP winning NOTHING.
> 
> ...


*ahem*

*Here's a list of ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS.

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ,
Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 39
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games in playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 29
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: MJ 23
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: MJ 23
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: Kobe 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40


FULL MJ/KB RECORDS LIST:

KOBE:
NBA Regular-season records Kobe holds:
-All-rookie game (now defunct): 31 points

NBA Regular-season records Kobe Shares:
-Most 3 pointers in one game: 12 (shared with 1
player)
-Most 3 pointers in one half: 8 (5 players)
-Most consecutive 3 pointers: 9 (2 players)
-Most free throws made in one quarter: 14 (5 players)
-Most free throws attempted one quarter: 16 (6
players)

NBA Playoff Records Kobe holds:
-NONE

NBA Playoff Records Kobe Shares:
-NONE

NBA Finals records Kobe holds:
-NONE

NBA Finals records Kobe Shares:
-NONE


MJ:
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan holds:
-Most seasons leading league in scoring: 10
-Highest scoring average, career: 30.12ppg 
-Most consecutive points, one game: 23
-Most seasons leading league in field goals made: 10
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in field
goal attempts: 10
-Most free throws made, one-half: 20
-Most consecutive gms in double figures in scoring:
866
-Most blocks by a guard: 131
-Most consecutive seasons leading PER: 7
-Highest career PER: 27.91
-Oldest player to score 40+ points: age 40 (43 pts)
-Oldest player to score 50+ points: age 38 (51 pts)

NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring:
7 (tied with Wilt Chamberlain)
-Most consecutive seasons, 2,000 plus points: 11 (Tied
with Malone)
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 14 (twice, tied
with 5 other players)
-Most seasons leading the league in steals: 3 (tied
with two others)

NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan holds:
-Highest scoring average, career: 33.4ppg
-Record Total points: 5987
-Record Most FTS made: 1463
-Most points playoffs, one-game: 63
-Most points playoffs, three-game series: 135 (vs.
Miami, 1992)
-Most Points playoffs, five-game series: 226 (vs.
Cleveland, 1988)
-Most field goals made playoffs, three-game series:
53 (vs. Miami, 1992)
-Most field goals made playoffs, five-game series: 86
(vs. Philadelphia, 1990)
-Most field goals made playoffs, six-game series: 101
(vs. Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive 50pt games: 2
-Most consecutive 45pt games: 3
-Most consecutive games, 20 plus points: 60
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 13
-Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 14
-Most 50 point games: 8
-Most 40 point games: 39
-Most consecutive points: 23

NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals, in a game: 24 (vs. Cleveland, May
1, 1988; tied with two others)
-Most three-point field goals made, one half: 6
(first half vs. Portland, June 3, 1992; tied with four
others)

NBA Finals records Michael Jordan holds:
- Highest Scoring average: 33.6
-Most points, six-game series: 246 (vs. Phoenix,
1993)
-Most field goals made, five-game series: 63 (vs.
L.A. Lakers, 1991)
-Most field goals made, six-game series: 101 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most steals, five-game series: 14 (vs. L.A. Lakers,
1991)
-Highest scoring average, one series: 41.0 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive games, 40-plus points: 4 (June 11,
1993 to June 18, 1993)
-Most consecutive 30 point games: 9
-Most consecutive games, 20-plus points: 29 (June 22,

1991 to June 1997)
-Most points, one-half: 35 (vs. Portland, June 3,
1992)
-Most consecutive field goals: 13 (Vs. LA)
-Most consecutive points: 23 (Vs. Seattle)
-Most Finals MVPs: 6

NBA Finals records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals made, one-half: 14 (vs. Portland,
June 3, 1992 and vs. Phoenix, June 16, 1993; tied with
Isiah Thomas)
-Most three-pointers made, one-half: 6 (vs. Portland,
June 3, 1992; tied with Kenny Smith)
-Most free throws made, one-quarter: 9 (at Utah, June
11, 1997; tied with Frank Ramsay)
-Most free throws attempted, one-half: 15 (at Utah,
June 4, 1997; tied with Bill Russell)


MJ/KB Awards:
..............................KB....MJ
Scoring Titles.......1.....10
1St NBA Team......4.....10
1st Defense..........4.....9
Steals Title............0.....3
MVPs......................0.....5
Rings.....................3.....6
NBA Finals............4.....6
Finals MVPs.........0.....6
PER Titles............0.....7
Olympic Golds.....0.....2
DPOYS..................0.....1
ROYS....................0.....1
Totals...................16....66

Kobe must score 36ppg for the next 9 years to catch
MJ's record 30.1ppg

Kobe must score 46.6ppg in his next 100 playoff games
to catch MJ's record 33.4ppg.*


Chew on that for a while.


----------



## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> MJ taking young Kobe to school
> 
> YouTube - Michael Jordan past his prime VS Young Kobe Bryant



Heh, add to that, MJ was sick that day and almost didn't play in the game.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> Heh, add to that, MJ was sick that day and almost didn't play in the game.


Wow, Jordan schools a 19 year old 2nd year player.

And about your list of accomplishments. Kobe spent the first 6 years of his career playing on a team built around Shaq, Jordan played his entire career on a team built around himself. If you don't think Kobe's individual accomplishments and statistics were sacrificed by playing with another dominant offensive option, then I guess its just a coincidence that once Kobe has his own team, hes starting to set his own records.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> *ahem*


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> Heh, add to that, MJ was sick that day and almost didn't play in the game.


That up and under move was nasty! Kobe didn't know what planet he was on. 

MJ was the original Kobe is still the student in my mind.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Some people here must have only started watching basketball in the 00s. The game has changed immensely. No longer is the league a league of men. It's teams that are soft that, and not only that, but the rules have changed the physical basketball that was once the heart beat of the NBA. ALa Celtics, Sixers, Lakers, and Pistons of the late 70s through the late 80s. To the Bulls, Knicks, and Heat of the 90s. You use to be able to put a guy on his backside when driving to the lane with out even being called for a gasp FLAGRANT! or [email protected] that even. Nowadays you may be ejceted from the game, plus get a game or two suspension on top of that! And for everyone talking up the Zone , and athletic ability of todays players. I would encourage you all to go back and do a little research. For one most of the superstar players including Jordan use to eat up the zone like it was candy in college basketball. Second the zone isn't used as much as people make it out to be. Man to man defense is played a lot of the time. Third chcek out this amazing list of your so called non-athletic players of the past, who Jordan all faced.

Julius Erving (Dr. J)
Dominique Wilkins (The Human Hilghight Film)
Clyde Drexler (Clyde The Glyde)
Isaiah Rider
Shawn Kemp (The Reignman)
Allan Houston
Stacey Augmon (The Plasticman)
Kendall Gill
Ron Harper
Mitch Richmond
James Worthy
Charles Barkley 
Doc Rivers 
Kevin Johnson
Sean Elliott
Latrell Sprewell 
Gary Payton
Grant Hill
Penny Hardway


and the list goes on....

Also after saying that up above. I believe Kobe is the best player in todays game bar none. However Jordan was just on a completely higher level in all aspects of basketball just not scoring.


----------



## jordan0386 (Jul 4, 2006)

What if players grew tired of all the roughing up and toughness..if its about making the game better, maybe its a change for the best

It allows players to work, rather than be ****ed up...it never made sense to me to **** cats up in order to stop them 

...slide your feet son


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Some people here must have only started watching basketball in the 00s. The game has changed immensely. No longer is the league a league of men. It's teams that are soft that, and not only that, but the rules have changed the physical basketball that was once the heat beat of the NBA. ALa Celtics, Sixers, Lakers, and Pistons of the late 70s through the late 80s. To the Bulls, Knicks, and Heat of the 90s. You use to be able to put a guy on his backside when driving to the lane with out even being called for a gasp FLAGRANT! or [email protected] that even. Nowadays you may be ejceted from the game, plus get a game or two suspension on top of that! And for everyone talking up the Zone , and athletic ability of todays players. I would encourage you all to go back and do a little research. For one most of the superstar players including Jordan use to eat up the zone like it was candy in college basketball. Second the zone isn't used as much as people make it out to be. Man to man defense is played a lot of the time. Third chcek out this amazing list of your so called non-athletic players of the past, who Jordan all faced.
> 
> Julius Erving (Dr. J)
> Dominique Wilkins (The Human Hilghight Film)
> ...


Don't be all blind about it, you were talking to me. And about none of those players count, because when I was referring to the past I was talking the late 80s, where MJ's best scoring exploits took place. That's a rather modern list of players. 

And I wouldn't say Man is used most of the time at all. Certain teams like the Wizards might force it with their isolations...but for the most part it's a zone. And of course Micheal Jordan played well against the zone, because he was a great scorer, but I wasn't talking about him facing it, I was talking about Kobe. 

And I realise the game was physical, but that reinforces my point that the game was less generally less athletic back then. You're only physical when you're trying to stick a guy or stop him in the lane...but athletic players, those with skills to boot, are generally less susceptible to that kind of defense then a Kevin Mchale, hence the game evolved and the rules got more lax. 

That's just my opinion. I'm not 38, so I don't know as much as some people would on this. I'm leaving this discussion anyway, I'm tired of it.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

jordan0386 said:


> What if players grew tired of all the roughing up and toughness..if its about making the game better, maybe its a change for the best
> 
> It allows players to work, rather than be ****ed up...it never made sense to me to **** cats up in order to stop them
> 
> ...slide your feet son


PASSION is why the league was phsyical And why the league should still be. Second, you bring up moving your feet. Well the league of the past was much more sound with fundementals then it is now. Second it's obvious the league has changed for the worse. And it's obvious stern is trying to soften up the league by changing the rules. I mean come on, don't tell me you already forgot about all the technical fouls early on this season when someone shook their head, or yelled out of agression over some bogus call or situation that elapsed on the court, and etc Also it's much easier to score in todays game obviously when you don't have to worry about Charles Oakley, Xavier McDaniel, David Robinson, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, etc laying the wood on you. Believe me it's human nature not to want to take a lick. SO of course when you know that a guy will be tossed out of game for knocking you on your butt today, ala Stackhouse on Shaq in the finals last season. A play like that would of been two shots and game on 10 years ago.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> Don't be all blind about it, you were talking to me. And about none of those players count, because when I was referring to the past I was talking the late 80s, where MJ's best scoring exploits took place. That's a rather modern list of players.
> 
> And I wouldn't say Man is used most of the time at all. Certain teams like the Wizards might force it with their isolations...but for the most part it's a zone. And of course Micheal Jordan played well against the zone, because he was a great scorer, but I wasn't talking about him facing it, I was talking about Kobe.
> 
> ...


So you want to judge MJ By sample sizes, not put his entire career into context ? If that's the case then remember we can judge any player being compared to Jordan by sample sizes as well. I'm also not blind. I played basketball enough myself in my life to know that the zone isn't going to bother a great player. However physical defense has bothered great players because not only does it hurt, it's mental. Something todays players don't have to contend with like they did in the past. All the players on my list are just as athletic as any player in todays game. By the way there are a lot of average athletic players in the NBA 2007 season as well. One of the most unathletic NBA players in todays NBA may just win his 3rd NBA MVP. Believe me Jordan wouldnt have any problems being the best in todays game.


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## jordan0386 (Jul 4, 2006)

I would say nash is pretty athletic, just because he isnt dunking and getting and-ones doesnt mean he isnt athletic


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

23AJ said:


> So you want to judge MJ By sample sizes, not put his entire career into context ? If that's the case then remember we can judge any player being compared to Jordan by sample sizes as well. I'm also not blind. I played basketball enough myself in my life to know that the zone isn't going to bother a great player. However physical defense has bothered great players because not only does it hurt, it's mental. Something todays players don't have to contend with like they did in the past. All the players on my list are just as athletic as any player in todays game. By the way there are a lot of average athletic players in the NBA 2007 season as well. One of the most unathletic NBA players in todays NBA may just win his 3rd NBA MVP. Believe me Jordan wouldnt have any problems being the best in todays game.


Lol, I'm glad you got the true point out of that post. I was saying MJ couldn't thrive today. Yep.

And I was assuming most of us were judging Kobe's period without Shaq vs. MJ's without Pippen, because those are the two most comparable eras of their career.

And I still maintain that the game is generally way more athletic than it was back then. You can't argue me and tell me that my initial point, which was the Mavericks being more athletic than the Celtics, isn't true. Yes, there are average skilled players now, just like their were spectacular athletes back then, but the game is still generally more reliant on athleticism, evidenced by the fast pace you need to have in your arsenal to even be considered a good offense.

And as far as Jordan, I wasn't discrediting him, and I never mentioned his ability against the zone, so stop trying to stray the conversation.

I was saying Kobe facing zone was harder than what Jordan had to deal with in that game, considering he was playing one of the least athletic teams in the league, and just about blew by anyone in his way trying to manup against him. But you have impressive manipulative abilities regardless.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

The game used to be so much better. 

I used to watch games where the defense was absolutely amazing. It was so physical all the time that scoring was almost impossible. Defenses didn't let you have anything easy. They would put you on the deck before allowing an open shot or a drive to the hoop. 

The offenses were much better too, I remember watching games where teams didn't miss but once or twice in quarters. The best part is they never took bad shots. They were always well-balanced jumpers that were products of nice ball movement and limited dribbling. 

Yeah, those were the days...


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> Lol, I'm glad you got the true point out of that post. I was saying MJ couldn't thrive today. Yep.
> 
> And I was assuming most of us were judging Kobe's period without Shaq vs. MJ's without Pippen, because those are the two most comparable eras of their career.
> 
> ...


Please stop! Jordan would blow by anyone in todays league playing the zone or man to man. His first step and athletic ability woudlnt be matched by anyone in todays game. Jordan has an AI first step but faster, leaping ability of Vince Carter, the strength of LeBron James, the grace of Dr. J, and game decision intelligence of Magic Johnson. Yet you want to talk about past teams vs. new age teams. Didnt you see Jordan at 40 years old playing these great athletic players and lighting them up ? IMagine what MJ would do in his prime. Nothing short of owning everyone just like he did in the 90s.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Please stop! Jordan would blow by anyone in todays league playing the zone or man to man. His first step and athletic ability woudlnt be matched by anyone in todays game. Jordan has an AI first step but faster, leaping ability of Vince Carter, the strength of LeBron James, the grace of Dr. J, and game decision intelligence of Magic Johnson. Yet you want to talk about past teams vs. new age teams. Didnt you see Jordan at 40 years old playing these great athletic players and lighting them up ? IMagine what MJ would do in his prime. Nothing short of owning everyone just like he did in the 90s.


You're still talking about MJ vs. the zone when I never mentioned that  Whatever....


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> You're still talking about MJ vs. the zone when I never mentioned that  Whatever....


And... I also mentioned todays defense, todays players, todays best wouldn't hold a candle to MJ. Just like nobody did when MJ was playing. Jordan would grab you 16 rebounds in a game, 8 assists, and drop 34 points shooting over 50% from the field. The guy was so freaking sick it makes me sick. I'm one of the biggest Kobe supoprters in the world! Bryant is the best in the game now bar none. However I don't even think he's even close to as good as MJ.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

MJ brought a lot to the game. 

You see that fadeaway jumper Kobe has? Who did he get that from? The motions are pure MJ.


Young MJ reminds me more of Dwayne Wade but with Kobe's passion.

Old MJ reminds me of Kobe's game right now. 


MJ was the man. 

Imagine if MJ saw Kobe or Dwade go before him. He would be owning the 3pt line and throwing down 70+ games.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Jordan in the 00s at 38 who had knee surgery.
Drops 50 points over 50 percent shooting, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, and 3 steals. Of course an NBA record.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ye-0ghhY7uw"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ye-0ghhY7uw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Jordan at 40 years old playing against the NBA in 2003. Drops over 40 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists, and 4 steals.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4TkvX356cpQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4TkvX356cpQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


Boy...

That zone defense, and Athletic players of the 00s sure seem scary to an over the hill Michael Jordan. Sheesh people wake up already. Jordan is considered the GOAT for so many reasons by most people for a reason. It doesn't matter what era you put Jordan in. Jordan will always be Jordan, and dominate. Do we really have to delve into how great a prime, and young elite scoring Jordan would be in todays game.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Jordan in the 00s at 38 who had knee surgery.
> Drops 50 points over 50 percent shooting, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, and 3 steals. Of course an NBA record.
> 
> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ye-0ghhY7uw"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ye-0ghhY7uw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
> ...


He had a 113-degree fever in _both_ of those games, too, IIRC. He almost died, and he was still able to do all that.

I think every team should retire his number, even the ones he didn't play for. And not just NBA teams either - without Michael Jordan, those international people overseas would've never even heard of basketball.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

That's it. Close thread. Kobe is great but nowhere near Jordan and never will.

Amazing clips, Thanks 23AJ, how soon we forget? (shakes head at the stupidity in this thread)



23AJ said:


> Jordan in the 00s at 38 who had knee surgery.
> Drops 50 points over 50 percent shooting, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, and 3 steals. Of course an NBA record.
> 
> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ye-0ghhY7uw"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ye-0ghhY7uw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
> ...


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

God, I'm sorry for questioning you. You were the world's greatest zonebuster. I'm sure you invented the zone too, actually.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Not to mention back then hand-check was allowed. (shakes head at the craziness in this thread)


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I bet Jordan could come back and still average like 55 a game in today's sorry league full of players who are the equivelent of what a 1990's NBDL league would have looked like.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I bet Jordan could come back and still average like 55 a game in today's sorry league full of players who are the equivelent of what a 1990's NBDL league would have looked like.


With a fever and mild retardation.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

The facts speak voulmes. It's kind of obvious how a prime Jordan would do in todays game. When you see him eat up Richard Jefferson, Kenyon Martin, and Jason Kidd at 40 years old. Not to mention that oh so scary zone defnese that makes it so hard to score for todays players. If you can shoot the basketball no zone will ever bother you. Ahemm..... Remember Jordan was a career 50% shooter from the field. Plus tack on his athletic ability to fly and dunk on anyone of any era. Yeah case closed. However it's obvious when people have nothing to write MJ off with so they revert to demeaning the merits of Michael Jordans basketball ability, and cracking jokes.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I bet Jordan could come back and still average like 55 a game in today's sorry league full of players who are the equivelent of what a 1990's NBDL league would have looked like.


By the same token, Wilt Chamberlain wasn't all that because he played in the 1960s - an era of bald, white Oompa Loompas.

LOL, the 1960s were so long ago! Way before I was around! There's no way anyone could have been as good as the players _I_ watched growing up!


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Air Fly said:


> That's it. Close thread. Kobe is great but nowhere near Jordan and never will.
> 
> Amazing clips, Thanks 23AJ, how soon we forget? (shakes head at the stupidity in this thread)


Now I see why Christianity bans idol worship.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

23AJ and Air Fly, nowhere to be heard from before tonight.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Now I see why Christianity bans idol worship.


What does that have to do with anything concerning this thread, The Fool. And yah, I'm not Christian.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

It's not about jokes, it's about the disgusting nostalgia of past eras. People look back at an era and claim offenses were much smoother, players were much more skilled, took higher percentage shots and how the ball movement was better and scoring was higher. Then in the same breathe or a different one, will go on about how defenses were tougher and didn't allow anything easy, players handchecked all the time, had passion and moved their feet tirelessly, and would send you to the floor everytime you came near the basket and it happened so often that it wasn't a big deal. Both of these can't be true. Even if both the offenses and defenses were better, one of them would not _appear_ to be because the other would be making it look worse than it is.


----------



## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Lol, I'm glad you got the true point out of that post. I was saying MJ couldn't thrive today. Yep.
> 
> And I was assuming most of us were judging Kobe's period without Shaq vs. MJ's without Pippen, because those are the two most comparable eras of their career.
> 
> ...



You say that team defense is better today because of the zone. Lets put this to rest without insulting each other. 

Name me one team within the past 5 years who were better then any of the teams below defensively.

late 80's to early 90s Pistons
early 90's Knicks
90's Bulls
1995 Sonics


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Air Fly said:


> What does that have to do with anything concerning this thread, The Fool.


Wow, you pulled a term from my avatar with which to insult me. However did you think of it?



> And yah, I'm not Christian.


My comment didn't assume you were.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm so touched.


















-From a charity game the other day. Kobe's in the locker room on an IV, he couldn't keep up.









-6 more than anyone's _ever_ had.









-That mashup is a bunch of players hugging after being brushed by Jordan









-Mike hitting one of his 901 homers I'm sure.









-Mike taking on the entire 97 Jazz team by himself.









-Mike was the best screamer too.









-Mike's tongue, the day he donated it to the NBA hall of fame.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's not about jokes, it's about the disgusting nostalgia of past eras. People look back at an era and claim offenses were much smoother, players were much more skilled, took higher percentage shots and how the ball movement was better and scoring was higher. Then in the same breathe or a different one, will go on about how defenses were tougher and didn't allow anything easy, players handchecked all the time, had passion and moved their feet tirelessly, and would send you to the floor everytime you came near the basket and it happened so often that it wasn't a big deal. Both of these can't be true. Even if both the offenses and defenses were better, one of them would not _appear_ to be because the other would be making it look worse than it is.


No, we are just saying Jordan is a special player that would have no trouble playing in today's era. Matter of fact, he would dominate like crazy. You aren't giving MJ enough credit...


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Wow, you pulled a term from my avatar with which to insult me. However did you think of it?


I'm sorry you thought of it that way. Not my fault.



> My comment didn't assume you were.


Yup, keep saying that to yourself.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> No, we are just saying Jordan is a special player that would have no trouble playing in today's era. Matter of fact, he would dominate like crazy. You aren't giving MJ enough credit...


I don't think anyone on this planet fails to give MJ his credit. It's when people have to take potshots at today's game to big up his legacy that bothers me. Mike was so great, and imagine how great he'd be in today's game! He'd score 50 a night easily!


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## jordan0386 (Jul 4, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't think anyone on this planet fails to give MJ his credit. It's when people have to take potshots at today's game to big up his legacy that bothers me. Mike was so great, and imagine how great he'd be in today's game! *He'd score 50 a night easily!*



Nobody has done 40 in like 40 years how is he doing 50?

How many shots will you justify him taking to get this 50 you seek?*

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............


*Based on how other players are viewed for taking a lot of shots


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

jordan0386 said:


> Nobody has done 40 in like 40 years how is he doing 50?
> 
> How many shots will you justify him taking to get this 50 you seek?*
> 
> ...


Stern would give MJ an extra point per shot in order to pay off his debt. So like...20.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> What does that have to do with anything concerning this thread, The Fool. And yah, I'm not Christian.


How strange.

http://www.basketballforum.com/everything-but-basketball/306064-warning-air-flys-religion-thread.html


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

A quote from Bill Simmons on this topic.....
ESPN.com: Page 2 : Bill Simmons Blog



> 5. Got a ton of feedback about Jemele Hill's "Kobe over MJ" column yesterday. Look, the whole point of a sports column is to take an angle, then argue the hell out of it. That's what she did. I wish more people would do this. Anyway, I didn't agree with the column for two reasons:
> 
> A. Kobe's scoring took off only after they changed the hand-checking rules and made it impossible for anyone to play defense. That's why Kobe scored 50-plus points in four straight games, that's why Steve Nash has a chance to win three straight MVPs, and that's why guys routinely score 50-60 points these days. If the 1987-93 MJ played in the current era, he would have obliterated every non-Wilt scoring record there was. That had to be mentioned.
> 
> B. MJ played in the most competitive era in the history of the league (1987-93) and emerged with three titles from 1991-93. Jemele argued that Kobe's current competition is tougher than the teams from 1991-93, which is just plain wrong. There's no comparison. The league sucks right now. Back in the early '90s, you had Magic's Lakers, Drexler's Blazers, Riley's Knicks, Isiah's Pistons, Price's Cavs, Hakeem's Rockets, Robinson's Spurs, Malone's Jazz, the TMC trio in Golden State, some underrated Celtics teams (they averaged 52 wins a year during Reggie Lewis' prime), some great Suns teams (including a 62-win team in 1992-93 with Barkley) and a Sonics team that was just taking off with GP and Kemp. It was a top-heavy league back then, unlike now, when 80 percent of the teams are mediocre and there are only four good teams (Dallas, Phoenix, San Antonio and Detroit).


I guess that settles it, until the league reinstates hand checking and all of those other factors come into play no player will ever come close to even sniffing Jordan, because that argument could be used against anyone. This isn't even about Kobe anyomore. In most people's mind Jordan is the GOAT today, tomorrow and forever, and that is a lock, and anyone trying to breach that status will be ridiculed and hated upon. The criteria to even be in the same ballpark as Jordan is something that even Jordan himself had nothing to do with.

Even if a player comes into the league 20 year from know and puts up 40/10/6 it won't matter because the argument will be, _"Well, he isn't better than Jordan because, Jordan had to deal with hand checking and played in a more competitive league that included, Magic's Lakers, Drexler's Blazers, Riley's Knicks, Isiah's Pistons, Price's Cavs, Hakeem's Rockets, Robinson's Spurs, Malone's Jazz, the TMC trio in Golden State, some underrated Celtics teams, some great Suns teams and a Sonics team that was just taking off with GP and Kemp."_

Now in saying that, as far as an overall player I don't believe Kobe is anywhere near Jordan right now; however, Kobe is still only 27, so we'll have to see how his career ends. However, due to the nature of Kobe's teammates, I don't think he'll be able to get back to the overall court game that he once had, because at this point his teammates are too dependent on his scoring outburst.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

it's bizarre to me that people actually argue it was tougher to score in the 80s. simply bizarre. equally bizarre that the physicality of the game is lauded as well. the pistons were really the 1st team that was notorious for their physical play, but it was the knicks and riley in the 90s that really bought it leaguewide. but the 80s for scoring difficulty and physical play? lol.

personally, i think one of the things that kept individual scorers lower than one might think (top scorers generally scored a lower % of their teams points than today's top scorers) was that teams put more scorers on the court, specifically because the focus was more on offense. most teams put out multiple offensive specialists. well, jordan didn't have to worry too much about that though on his bulls (at least after 1986).


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

She didn't argue her point though. She made a lot of declarative statements with absolutely no supporting evidence, then listed a lot of cliches in the kobe/jordan debate that have been said a million times. It was a vapid, pointless article.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> and you want to talk about winning? Heck, give Kobe a sane Ron Artesr and someone like elton brand and we would see if Kobe would get 6 rings in 6 years...


Wow, so not only do you want to give Kobe a Pippen-like player in sane Artest, you want him to have a 20/10/2.5 block player like Brand, which is something Jordan never had the luxury of? Why don't you give him prime Wilt Chamberlain while you're at it. :lol:


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

how bout giving him a team that's top 6 in the league defensively WITHOUT HIM, like the bulls were in '94 (6th) and '95 (2nd)?


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## Zei_Zao_LS (Apr 1, 2005)

kflo said:


> how bout giving him a team that's top 6 in the league defensively WITHOUT HIM, like the bulls were in '94 (6th) and '95 (2nd)?


I think that hiring Brian Colangelo would really be all he needs to get a respectable team around him.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

kflo said:


> how bout giving him a team that's top 6 in the league defensively WITHOUT HIM, like the bulls were in '94 (6th) and '95 (2nd)?


Offense > defense. A 20/10/2+ player covers a lot of mistakes.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Offense > defense. A 20/10/2+ player covers a lot of mistakes.


ok - forget about brand. simply give him a defense that can rank top 6 without him (and respectable offensively). you think that could help?


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

LamarButler said:


> Most people will not admit it, but Kobe is a lot better than Jordan at a lot of things. Im not saying hes better than Jordan.


like what? ill give the scoring edge to kobe but keep your delusions aside, mj was a much better all around player than kobe, if your testament of greatness is ballhandling skills and a slighlty better shooting beyond the arc then you need to understand that mj's defensive prowess easily overshadows both.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

kflo said:


> ok - forget about brand. simply give him a defense that can rank top 6 without him (and respectable offensively). you think that could help?


Of course. No one is saying that he needs to win with the crappy defensive team he has now. But a lot of that is leadership and coaching. Kobe's defense this year hasn't been doing them any favors either, you know. They have good athletes/defenders (Kobe, Odom, Brown, Evans, Farmar, Bynum is a good shotblocker etc.).


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## Mohamed_#8 (Jan 24, 2006)

I think it says a lot about Kobe Bryant for people to be comparing him to Jordan *NOW*.

Want some perspective?

Kobe's only 28 man, let him play for 10 more years, retire, THEN compare him to Jordan.

Is that so hard?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

ralaw said:


> I guess that settles it, until the league reinstates hand checking and all of those other factors come into play no player will ever come close to even sniffing Jordan, because that argument could be used against anyone. This isn't even about Kobe anyomore. In most people's mind Jordan is the GOAT today, tomorrow and forever, and that is a lock, and anyone trying to breach that status will be ridiculed and hated upon. The criteria to even be in the same ballpark as Jordan is something that even Jordan himself had nothing to do with.
> 
> Even if a player comes into the league 20 year from know and puts up 40/10/6 it won't matter because the argument will be, _"Well, he isn't better than Jordan because, Jordan had to deal with hand checking and played in a more competitive league that included, Magic's Lakers, Drexler's Blazers, Riley's Knicks, Isiah's Pistons, Price's Cavs, Hakeem's Rockets, Robinson's Spurs, Malone's Jazz, the TMC trio in Golden State, some underrated Celtics teams, some great Suns teams and a Sonics team that was just taking off with GP and Kemp."_


Good post. It's funny how the league keeps getting worse by some people's accounts. It happened in the 90's too when 80's junkies wanted to degrade the ball being played at that time. Now we're starting to do the same thing with the 90's and the current brand of ball. 

It's also easy to come up with a bunch of teams that were good in an era if you can cover a 6-8 year span. Shaq and Kobe's Lakers, Duncan's Spurs, the great Kings teams with Webber, Nash's Suns, Dirk's Mavericks, Wade's Heat, the Pistons with Billups and company, the 60 win Pacers with O'Neal and Artest, Kidd's Nets and so on.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Mohamed_#8 said:


> I think it says a lot about Kobe Bryant for people to be comparing him to Jordan *NOW*.
> 
> Want some perspective?
> 
> ...


That's what I've been saying for quite some time now.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

except noone is comparing their career accomplishments. noone. it's fair to compare them from a point in time standpoint. a skills standpoint. a single-year standpoint. a relative point of career standpoint. we did it for jordan. we can do it now. we have to wait until everyone's career's are over before we can talk about them in relation to any prior player?


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Don't have to...but in regards to comparing their what each has done, it makes more sense to really get into any comparisons once Kobe's career is settled.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Good post. It's funny how the league keeps getting worse by some people's accounts. It happened in the 90's too when 80's junkies wanted to degrade the ball being played at that time. Now we're starting to do the same thing with the 90's and the current brand of ball.


Yeah,I remember when everyone was complaining during the mid 90's that NBA play has become stagnant and dirty, which is why the new rules where even implemented, yet today the league is soft and sucks. I would venture to say outside of the Finals, those who ridicule the league the most don't even watch 3 games a year. I've just become tired of getting in these era debates with nostalgia. I'll be the first to admit that Jordan is the standard, but it stops there. It's sad that this generation of wing players like Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Tracy McGrady, etc have to be ridiculed by people's desire to uplift Jordan to even higher heights. All of those players will go down among the greatest wing players to ever play the game, yet it will be overlooked due to Jordan's immense shadow.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Something that never ceases to amaze me is how come peeps can't seem to recognize Kobe IS MJ without Pippen and Horace Grant...


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> Something that never ceases to amaze me is how come peeps can't seem to recognize Kobe IS MJ without Pippen and Horace Grant...


Except for Jordan's defense, dunking, and tenacity.

Kobe is good, but Jordan was better. 

I am tired of all of these people forgetting how amazing Jordan was. I remember seeing him play against the Suns in the '93 Finals, and whenever he caught the ball, you could hear the entire crowd intake a breath and you could feel that they all thought the same thing at the same time, "Oh ****!" Now I don't mean to deprecate Kobe and his talents, but he isn't anywhere near Jordan yet, and won't because he can't palm the ball like Jordan and doesn't have the same brain type as him. Jordan brain knew of only two modes. Gamble and Kill. He would sometimes hurt his own teammates during practice because he was competing so hard against them! Let me repeat that, he has INJURED HIS OWN TEAMMATES DURING PRACTICE! Kobe shows the closest flashes of Jordan brilliance when he gets mad, but Jordan played mad the whole game, he would make up stuff about the guy just to get fired up about him. 

Oh and when Jordan was 28, he was averaging 30.1ppg/6.4rpg/6.1apg/2.3spg and he did that while only taking 7 FTs a game and taking 22shots per game and only 1 3pter per game!


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Except for Jordan's defense, dunking, and tenacity.
> 
> Kobe is good, but Jordan was better.
> 
> ...


What a load of crap!

Can't you guys bring anything new?


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> What a load of crap!
> 
> Can't you guys bring anything new?


so basically your opinion is right and everyone who dares disagree is wrong? you're an idiot. you have no idea who michael jordan is or what he was to the game. All you know about him is his statistics. Jordan at 28 on the very same Lakers team would have homecourt advantage and would be a strong candidate to win the west. Kobe is just a selfish player. The closest player to compare him to is T-Mac. His passes aren't oppourtune, he calls for the ball too much, doesn't repsect his teammates game enough to let them play. He's a ball hog and doesn't make his teammates better. The only way he can help them is by shooting a million shots. What a PHENOM! I wish every player was Kobe! This is a waste of time if you think that Kobe would EVER challenge Jordan for a starting spot on ANY team at the same age.


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## Blink4 (Jan 17, 2005)

IceMan23and3 said:


> so basically your opinion is right and everyone who dares disagree is wrong? you're an idiot. you have no idea who michael jordan is or what he was to the game. All you know about him is his statistics. Jordan at 28 on the very same Lakers team would have homecourt advantage and would be a strong candidate to win the west. Kobe is just a selfish player. The closest player to compare him to is T-Mac. His passes aren't oppourtune, he calls for the ball too much, doesn't repsect his teammates game enough to let them play. He's a ball hog and doesn't make his teammates better. The only way he can help them is by shooting a million shots. What a PHENOM! I wish every player was Kobe! This is a waste of time if you think that Kobe would EVER challenge Jordan for a starting spot on ANY team at the same age.


Hahahahahaha. LMFAO, do u honestly think that Jordan with this Lakers team would be competing to win the west? That is one of the dumbest statements i have ever heard. What would Jordan have done differently that Kobe? And you obviously have not watched any Lakers games this year, except for the last 5 games where he went off. If you actually watched the teams first 60 games, you would see how he changed his game to "better the team." He took less shots, passed more, and guess what . . . . it didnt ****ing work. Get a clue man, no one would have this Lakers team winning the west, even if Jordan was on it. You say that we obviously never watched MJ, but you seem to have a pretty unclear memory yourself. When Jordan didnt have one of the better supporting casts in the league, how many championships did he win?


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

IceMan23and3 said:


> so basically your opinion is right and everyone who dares disagree is wrong? you're an idiot. you have no idea who michael jordan is or what he was to the game. All you know about him is his statistics. Jordan at 28 on the very same Lakers team would have homecourt advantage and would be a strong candidate to win the west. Kobe is just a selfish player. The closest player to compare him to is T-Mac. His passes aren't oppourtune, he calls for the ball too much, doesn't repsect his teammates game enough to let them play. He's a ball hog and doesn't make his teammates better. The only way he can help them is by shooting a million shots. What a PHENOM! I wish every player was Kobe! This is a waste of time if you think that Kobe would EVER challenge Jordan for a starting spot on ANY team at the same age.


Tmac's passive play is the closest to Jordan? Jordan didn't demand the ball all the time? I remember reading a quote by Doug Collins back when he coached the Bulls about how he tried to get the Bulls into a running team but couldn't because Jordan wouldn't ever let go of the ball. He respects his teammates, yet he still punches them in practice? Thats the sign of a great leader? He respected Bill Cartwright so much that he even told his team not to give him the ball?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

_Dre_ said:


> I'm so touched.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quoted for emphasis.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Drewbs said:


> Tmac's passive play is the closest to Jordan? Jordan didn't demand the ball all the time? I remember reading a quote by Doug Collins back when he coached the Bulls about how he tried to get the Bulls into a running team but couldn't because Jordan wouldn't ever let go of the ball. He respects his teammates, yet he still punches them in practice? Thats the sign of a great leader? He respected Bill Cartwright so much that he even told his team not to give him the ball?


I'm not even gonna separate the quote, so you can just deduce which part i am referring to in my response.

That's why Collins isn't in the NBA anymore right? Because he sucked as a coach. TMac and Kobe are most similar genius. Did I say punch? There is a lot of elbowing and pushing and physical play during games. Is every injury caused by a punch? You are joking right? don't pass to Cartwright? get out of here with that! That is just crazy! The dude was a career 52% FG shooter! You're just trying to make stuff up now aren't you?


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Blink4 said:


> Hahahahahaha. LMFAO, do u honestly think that Jordan with this Lakers team would be competing to win the west? That is one of the dumbest statements i have ever heard. What would Jordan have done differently that Kobe? And you obviously have not watched any Lakers games this year, except for the last 5 games where he went off. If you actually watched the teams first 60 games, you would see how he changed his game to "better the team." He took less shots, passed more, and guess what . . . . it didnt ****ing work. Get a clue man, no one would have this Lakers team winning the west, even if Jordan was on it. You say that we obviously never watched MJ, but you seem to have a pretty unclear memory yourself. When Jordan didnt have one of the better supporting casts in the league, how many championships did he win?


I remember that, AND I rememeber that they had a better team with Odom and no Kobe than with Kobe and no Odom.

YOU WERENT EVEN BORN WHEN JORDAN WON HIS FIRST RING!


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

That article proved one thing. Jemele Hill is the worst journalist in history.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Phenom Z28 said:


> That article proved one thing. Jemele Hill is the worst journalist in history.


repped.
I don't know about in history, but definately up there. *ahem*Stephan A Smith *ahem*


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

IceMan23and3 said:


> I'm not even gonna separate the quote, so you can just deduce which part i am referring to in my response.
> 
> That's why Collins isn't in the NBA anymore right? Because he sucked as a coach. TMac and Kobe are most similar genius. Did I say punch? There is a lot of elbowing and pushing and physical play during games. Is every injury caused by a punch? You are joking right? don't pass to Cartwright? get out of here with that! That is just crazy! The dude was a career 52% FG shooter! You're just trying to make stuff up now aren't you?


You never heard about Jordan freezing out Cartwright when the Bulls traded Oakley for him? And you never head of Jordan punching Will Perdue after knocking him down by setting a screen on him during practice? or punching Steve Kerr in practice? These are pretty well documented occurrences.

And Tmac? Kobe has eclipsed him as a player to the point that they are no longer even on the same level. Not to mention, their games are nothing alike and never were, so I'm not sure where you get that comparison

If you're going to say Jordan is a better player than Kobe, fine. If you want to say he was a better penetrator, a more explosive athlete, making him a more efficient scorer fine. If you want to bring up the fact that Jordan was a superior defensive player, fine. But saying hes better because you think Kobe was a ball hog? or that he doesn't respect his teammates? Thats a completely different story, especially seeing how well documented it is that Jordan wasn't the greatest teammate either.


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## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife (Nov 9, 2004)

Drewbs said:


> *You never heard about Jordan freezing out Cartwright when the Bulls traded Oakley for him? And you never head of Jordan punching Will Perdue after knocking him down by setting a screen on him during practice? or punching Steve Kerr in practice? These are pretty well documented occurrences.*


Jordan was a saint, whachutalkingboutWILLIS????


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Larry Bird put it this way: "It must be God disguised as Michael Jordan."


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Larry Bird put it this way: "It must be God disguised as Michael Jordan."


You're point? Jordan was the greatest player to play basketball, but he wasn't perfect and many of the flaws you find in Kobe were found in Jordan was well.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Drewbs said:


> You're point? Jordan was the greatest player to play basketball, but he wasn't perfect and many of the flaws you find in Kobe were found in Jordan was well.


You make a name in the regular season, you make your fame in the playoffs.

Kobe has averaged over 30ppg in a season ONCE in his career in the NBA, same with the playoffs. Jordan's CAREER AVERAGE is 30ppg and playoff average of 33ppg

my point is that Kobe ain't as good as Jordan, never has been never will be


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

IceMan23and3 said:


> You make a name in the regular season, you make your fame in the playoffs.
> 
> Kobe has averaged over 30ppg in a season ONCE in his career in the NBA, same with the playoffs. Jordan's CAREER AVERAGE is 30ppg and playoff average of 33ppg
> 
> my point is that Kobe ain't as good as Jordan, never has been never will be


Kobe also played on a team built around Shaq where the ball ran through Shaq on offense. Maybe thats why his numbers are lower, and maybe thats also why his numbers have skyrocketed since Shaq's departure.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Something that never ceases to amaze me is how come peeps can't seem to recognize Kobe IS MJ without Pippen and Horace Grant...


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how people can compare a player who has never led the league or even finished top 2 in any aggregate statistical metric (EFF, PER, Birdies etc.) to a player who led the league in such categories 15+ times and finished top 2 nearly half a dozen more.


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player who could not even shoot 47% from the floor *for a single season* under man-to-man rules and despite having the most dominant player of the last 30 years drawing multiple defenders every time down the floor can be compared to a player who shot ~54% several times and was a career 51% shooter prior to his Wizards days despite being the sole focus of every defense he ever faced.


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player with lackluster defensive instincts, who averages an anemic 1.4 steals and .4 blocks per game can be compared to one of the most disruptive defenders to ever play the game -- a player who, *at age 40*, averaged more steals and blocks than Kobe does at age 28. How he can be compared to a player who twice had 235+ stl/125+ blk seasons when he has never come within 78 steals and 64 blocks of the other's best marks. How a player whose highest finish in steals per game (6th, one season) can be compared to a player who led the league in steals per game 3 times and finished top 3 another 4 times.


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how two players are compared when one only has *a single playoff series in his entire 10 year career* (vs. SA in 2001, 33 pts/7 reb/7 ast/1.5 stl/.7 blk/51.4% FG, generated over the course of 4 games) which is comparable to the other's *9 year postseason averages* upon retirement in 1993 (34.8 pts/6.7 reb/6.7 ast/2.4 stl/1.1 blk/51% FG, generated over the course of 9 postseasons, 111 games, 24 series).


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player is seen as "exactly the same" as another player when the latter player was a better rebounder, passer, scorer, leader, and defender (both on and off the ball), and could impact (and even occasionally dominate) games in *all* of those categories, whereas the former player is worse in all areas (scoring's the closest, but he's still worse) and can only impact and control games with his scoring.


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player who has scored 40+ in the playoffs a grand total of 4 times is compared to a player who scored 40+ in the playoffs 42 times. Or a player who's scored 50+ in the playoffs once being compared to one who's done so 8 times.


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how one man can be so consumed with hatred for one player because he ripped his favorite team's heart out in the '91 Finals, stole an entire decade's worth of limelight away from his favorite franchise, and badly outplayed his favorite player on the biggest stage. Badly.


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player who has _not even advanced to the second round as the best player on his team_ can be compared with a player who got to the ECF and took 2 games from the eventual champion Pistons with a squad no better than what the other player has now.


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player who has only finished top 3 in MVP voting *once* is compared to one who finished top 3 *ten times*.


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player with 2 scoring titles on moderate efficiency is compared to a player with 10 scoring titles on outstanding efficiency.


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player whose *best single-season PER is 28.0* is compared to another player whose 11 season career average upon retirement in 1998 was *29.2* (that's right folks -- Jordan's 11 season average was better than Kobe's best year). Or how one whose PER at age 28 is only marginally better than the other's at age 35.


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how two players are compared when one was posting a comparable PER 40 line at age 39 to what the other was posting at age 23:

*Jordan per 40 (2002)-* 26.3 pts, 6.5 reb, 5.9 ast, 1.6 stl, .5 blk (42% FG)

*Kobe per 40 (2002)-* 26.4 pts, 5.8 reb, 5.7 ast, 1.5 stl, .5 blk (47% FG)


...and he did it on one knee.



Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player who has averaged 73 games per full season in his career is compared to a veritable iron man who had averaged 81.4 games per full season upon retirement in 1998, including 8 full seasons of 82 games.


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player who has never had an offensive rating (ORtg) above 114 (and even that for only one season, 2006), and has never been more than *9* points above the league average ORtg, is compared to a player who *averaged* a 121 ORtg until his retirement in 1998, was routinely *15-17 pts above league average*, and who peaked at an absurd 125 ORtg. 


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player who has *never been considered the unquestionable best player in the game* can be compared to someone who was unquestionably the best for nearly a decade.


Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player who shamelessly ripped off another player's entire game, down to specific moves and mannerisms, is -- despite his galling lack of originality and propriety -- compared to the original player. Kobe is second-hand goods; a pretender to the throne; a poseur. 


Get a new act, Paulo. Your old one has grown stale.


*N.B.:* That said, Kobe is a phenomenal player, undoubtedly top 2-3 in the league, and will go down as one of the all-time greats (top 9-14 most likely). But enough is enough already.


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## jordan0386 (Jul 4, 2006)

bailout.gif


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## @[email protected] (Jan 19, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Something that never ceases to amaze me is how people can compare a player who has never led the league or even finished top 2 in any aggregate statistical metric (EFF, PER, Birdies etc.) to a player who led the league in such categories 15+ times and finished top 2 nearly half a dozen more.
> 
> 
> Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player who could not even shoot 47% from the floor *for a single season* under man-to-man rules and despite having the most dominant player of the last 30 years drawing multiple defenders every time down the floor can be compared to a player who shot ~54% several times and was a career 51% shooter prior to his Wizards days despite being the sole focus of every defense he ever faced.
> ...


:clap2: :clap2:


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

PauloCatarino you got owned badly. Next time, think before you post nonsense.

Thank you for the beautiful and well-thought post, Jordan23Forever.



Jordan23Forever said:


> Something that never ceases to amaze me is how people can compare a player who has never led the league or even finished top 2 in any aggregate statistical metric (EFF, PER, Birdies etc.) to a player who led the league in such categories 15+ times and finished top 2 nearly half a dozen more.
> 
> 
> Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player who could not even shoot 47% from the floor *for a single season* under man-to-man rules and despite having the most dominant player of the last 30 years drawing multiple defenders every time down the floor can be compared to a player who shot ~54% several times and was a career 51% shooter prior to his Wizards days despite being the sole focus of every defense he ever faced.
> ...


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

Wait a minute. some dude drops 50 for 4 games straight and is suddenly compared to Jordan? and the journalist has the gall to actually say that hes better than Jordan? :lol:

worst article ever


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Drewbs said:


> Kobe also played on a team built around Shaq where the ball ran through Shaq on offense. Maybe thats why his numbers are lower, and maybe thats also why his numbers have skyrocketed since Shaq's departure.


Uhhh thats not true. Shaq wasn't the main option for the Lakers during their last championship apperance. If you recall, Kobe ignored Shaq and tried to be the dominate number one option. We all saw what that Kobe did, leading the Lakers in that finals apperance against the Pistons. Kobe was pretty much putrid the entire series in the finals.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Air Fly said:


> PauloCatarino you got owned badly. Next time, think before you post nonsense.
> 
> Thank you for the beautiful and well-thought post, Jordan23Forever.














> Sycophant differs from Me-Too in that he is much more concerned with sucking up than he is with actually doing battle. Of course, he WILL engage in some light combat to impress Big Dog and other stronger Warriors, but he never exposes himself to unnecessary danger. Although combatants sometimes employ Sycophant to buttress an attack, his constantly shifting loyalties make him a weak and unreliable ally.


http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/sycophant.htm


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Drewbs said:


> Tmac's passive play is the closest to Jordan?


First of all, McGrady went through a scoring burst for several seasons like Bryant is now. Secondly, McGrady is no more "passive" than Magic Johnson or Jason Kidd. When the Rockets are at their best, he dictates everything...just because his scoring is down, doesn't mean he isn't involving himself as much. Creating for others is extremely active and valuable. McGrady's had a ton of games this year of 8-10 assists, and still has been scoring enough to average near 25 PPG.

I don't think McGrady is the most similar to Jordan in playing style, but he's hardly a passive player. He simply tries to find the best way to get the team playing at its best level, which sometimes means easing off the scoring pedal and getting others involved.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Something that never ceases to amaze me is how people can compare a player who has never led the league or even finished top 2 in any aggregate statistical metric (EFF, PER, Birdies etc.) to a player who led the league in such categories 15+ times and finished top 2 nearly half a dozen more.
> 
> 
> Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player who could not even shoot 47% from the floor *for a single season* under man-to-man rules and despite having the most dominant player of the last 30 years drawing multiple defenders every time down the floor can be compared to a player who shot ~54% several times and was a career 51% shooter prior to his Wizards days despite being the sole focus of every defense he ever faced.
> ...


Take a deep breath haters. MJ was beyond amazingly talented. He did it all at the highest level possible in every facet of the game.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

Rawse said:


> Sycophant


:lol: Good one.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Something that never ceases to amaze me is how people can compare a player who has never led the league or even finished top 2 in any aggregate statistical metric (EFF, PER, Birdies etc.) to a player who led the league in such categories 15+ times and finished top 2 nearly half a dozen more.
> 
> 
> Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player who could not even shoot 47% from the floor *for a single season* under man-to-man rules and despite having the most dominant player of the last 30 years drawing multiple defenders every time down the floor can be compared to a player who shot ~54% several times and was a career 51% shooter prior to his Wizards days despite being the sole focus of every defense he ever faced.
> ...



Damn. Just...damn.:cheers:


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

jordan's peak per years generally came when he was winning jack, and people thought he was a selfish gunner (yeah, many thought that). his per dropped (3 championship per's under 28), and people thought he was better. tmac's per in '03 and wade's per this year are better than jordan's per in 5 of his 6 title years. david robinson's per pisses on hakeem's (and magic and bird's). 

again, it's funny that jordan jockers (to steal a leegenius phrase) love to mix and match jordan's, and hold his entire career up as a single entity. any mention of anyone in jordan's company, and the entire dossier is pulled out. 

take a chill pill. :chill: 

again, noone is saying that kobe's career is better than jordan's. noone. most are comparing them as scorers. kobe today. i do appreciate the passion of the jordan jocker, just use it with some discretion. noone's taking his goat away. we appreciate you standing on guard though.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

kflo said:


> his per dropped (3 championship per's under 28)


Yeah, one at 27.7 (age 29), one at 27.8 (age 34), and one at 25.4 at age 35. I like how you say "3 under 28" as if that's some sort of indictment -- Kobe's *career best* is 28. What point are you trying to make here?



> tmac's per in '03 and wade's per this year are better than jordan's per in 5 of his 6 title years.


Barely better than 2 of them (30.3 vs. 29.4 and 29.7). Interestingly, these came at age 23 and 25, not 29-35. Still, it's a credit to TMac and Wade that they've had such marvelous statistical seasons. Unfortunately, Kobe hasn't. And last I checked, no Wade or TMac fans were trying to favorably compare their favorite player to one of the best ever. 




> david robinson's per pisses on hakeem's (and magic and bird's).


And your point is? No one is suggesting that PER or any other stat is the be-all, end-all of player comparison. However, when you have literally *dozens* of stats (single category, aggregate, vs. league averages etc.) all pointing towards the same conclusion, and then on top of that you have awards/accolades/winning _also_ pointing towards that same conclusion, then one would be foolish to deny said conclusion. It is for this very reason -- the convergence of *all* available evidence pointing towards the conclusion that Jordan is fairly easily better than Kobe -- that the last refuge of "Kobe jockers" is the "skills" argument (which will undoubtedly rear its ugly head soon); and that's because it is entirely subjective and can't be disproved. It's essentially no better than the "fingers in the ear" defense -- they simply frame the discussion so as to admit only subjective evidence which, inherently, cannot be disproved. Mind you, few of these people have ever watched prime Jordan ('88-'93), yet they feel qualified to weigh in on his skillset. Humorous.



> again, it's funny that jordan jockers (to steal a leegenius phrase) love to mix and match jordan's, and hold his entire career up as a single entity. any mention of anyone in jordan's company, and the entire dossier is pulled out.


More like, "any mention of anyone who *does not have any sort of legitimate case* to be mentioned in his company and the entire dossier is pulled out to show how silly such comparisons are."


Lebron and Wade have dominated the league (regular and postseasons) statistically in a way that Kobe never has. Each of them, in their young careers, have posted better PER's and postseason #'s than Kobe ever has. Yet you seldom hear their fans being obnoxious and comparing them to all-time greats.


I'd love to know what has Kobe actually *done* to be mentioned alongside Jordan. His legacy is three titles as an integral, yet secondary member of the team; soon-to-be two scoring titles and some impressive single and multiple-game scoring records; several top 20 level seasons ('02, '03, '05) and one all-time level season ('06); and not doing anything at all yet as the leader of his team. That's it. Tell me what he's *done*.



> most are comparing them as scorers. kobe today. i do appreciate the passion of the jordan jocker, just use it with some discretion. noone's taking his goat away. we appreciate you standing on guard though.


Kobe is certainly one of the best scorers in history, and possibly the most explosive scorer of all-time when he gets super-hot; if his more vacuous fans were content to leave it at that, there'd be no problem. Yet they constantly try to make him into something he's not, and that's where the problem is.

I like how you act as though people are only comparing them scoring-wise when the Paulo Catarino post I quoted which prompted my long response explicitly stated that they are the same player (i.e., equivalent). Yet you get on my case and not his, despite my argument having a metric ton more objective and historical backing. Nice. And oddly querulous.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

this may come as a surprise to you, but kobe and jordan don't actually play against each other. they don't come from the same era. a strict statistical argument doesn't answer the ultimate question. a lifetime team accomplishment argument doesn't. the variables are all different. the competition is different. the style of play is different.

kobe's per last year was .1 off from lebron's, and he's had statistical postseasons better than wade's ('01). 

jordan the final product on paper has everything. it doesn't mean you have to surpass jordan the final product on paper to be compared to him. he wasn't perfect. 

and again, part of the point was that many perceive jordan's best to be the less-statistically dominant jordan. less statistically dominant all around.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

If any of you actually understand how basketball works, you'd know that Jordan would have been a 2nd option to a prime Shaquille too. That's how good Shaquille was. Holding that against Kobe is just stupid, especially since he has only played 2 years without Shaquille, and one of those seasons was an injury-plagued one where he had plantar fasciitus the whole year, and the other year was last year. 

What's funny is, for all the talk about Kobe's selfishness, if he leads a team to a title in the next 10 years, he will be one of the only players in history to win titles as both a 1st option and a 2nd option. To me that's showing how well you understand roles within the team concept.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> If any of you actually understand how basketball works, you'd know that Jordan would have been a 2nd option to a prime Shaquille too. That's how good Shaquille was.


Second option, probably, but also probably not the second best player on the team. Let me ask you: if Jordan was putting up ~29.2 pts/6.7 reb/7.0 ast/2.6 stl/1 blk/52.5% shooting (which I feel is an entirely reasonable statline to assume for a 24-29 year old Jordan playing with a prime Shaq), in addition to the usual All-NBA defense and clutch heroics, would he really be viewed as the second best player on the team? What if Jordan's PER was 30.5 to Shaq's 30, and he did all the stuff Kobe did during that three-peat, too? Would he be considered the second best player on the team? 


Kobe fans usually like to answer this question in the affirmative, because they just can't see how anyone can be considered Shaq's superior, because by implication that would make them Kobe's superior as well. Fact is, though, you have clowns arguing that Kobe was better than Shaq (or at least his equal) from '01-'03 *right now*, and Kobe has never even _approached_ Jordan's statistical dominance (or the statistical dominance he'd quite easily achieve in the same circumstances). What would people be saying about a player like *that*? Yeah...exactly.


The only reason Kobe was considered the second best player on that team was because *he was*. He simply didn't produce anywhere near well enough to make the case for being #1 over Shaq. You can't change what you are by merely hoping it to be so. By contrast, we have *every indication* that Jordan would have produced on a level _at least_ comparable to Shaq while also contributing tons of clutch play. That's what would make Jordan in that situation different from Kobe in that situation -- Jordan's simply the better player, and that would come through on the court in terms of production; that changes the calculus and, ultimately, the conclusion.


I'll deal with kflo's post later tonight.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

I agree with Jordan23Forever here, although I have no use for aggregate player stats. Kobe is a career 45% shooter. Which isn't bad or anything, but it's hardly comparable to Jordan who was scoring significantly more points, while doing so at efficiency levels comparable to bigs.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

And playing tougher defense.

Honestly, look at Kobe's defense during that 5 game stretch. Kobe was able to put aside everything else and just focus on scoring. His defense was non-existant, as was his rebounding and especially assists.

Compare Kobe's and MJ's biggest games, and even though Kobe has had plenty of high scoring games, the rest of his game takes a backseat to his scoring, while MJ kept up his defense, rebounding and the rest of his game.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> Honestly, look at Kobe's defense during that 5 game stretch. Kobe was able to put aside everything else and just focus on scoring. His defense was non-existant, as was his rebounding and especially assists.


Actually, his rebounding was good at 7.0, which is above his season's average. I agree about his passing and defense, however (especially defense; he would have had a couple more assists if guys could hit shots, particularly in that Denver game).


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

I think that we can close this thread now, Jordan wins again, in a fourth quarter blowout.

if you want a really good book about basketball, read The Jordan Rules. It'll give you a great look into the best player in the history of the NBA.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Well...the bottomline from this thread is that there's few on here who can actually put Kobe in perspective against the Jordan aura. I can't, I stopped trying.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Second option, probably, but also probably not the second best player on the team. Let me ask you: if Jordan was putting up ~29.2 pts/6.7 reb/7.0 ast/2.6 stl/1 blk/52.5% shooting (which I feel is an entirely reasonable statline to assume for a 24-29 year old Jordan playing with a prime Shaq), in addition to the usual All-NBA defense and clutch heroics, would he really be viewed as the second best player on the team? What if Jordan's PER was 30.5 to Shaq's 30, and he did all the stuff Kobe did during that three-peat, too? Would he be considered the second best player on the team?


I'll just deal with this part, since the rest of your post deals with your assumption that Jordan would be the best, and I don't agree. 

I'm of the opinion that Shaquille from around 1999 (when Phil came aboard) to about 2002 was better than any player ever has been. Jordan has more sparkle to his career, better longevity, worked harder and has more magical moments, but Shaquille during those few years was simply ridiculous and not even the almighty Jordan measures out against him individually. Shaquille during those years still had his agility and athleticism, and combined it with savvy and intelligence. I do credit a lot of that to Phil, as his impacts on the head game of Jordan, Pippen and Kobe have been similar.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Second option, probably, but also probably not the second best player on the team. Let me ask you: if Jordan was putting up ~29.2 pts/6.7 reb/7.0 ast/2.6 stl/1 blk/52.5% shooting (which I feel is an entirely reasonable statline to assume for a 24-29 year old Jordan playing with a prime Shaq), in addition to the usual All-NBA defense and clutch heroics, would he really be viewed as the second best player on the team? What if Jordan's PER was 30.5 to Shaq's 30, and he did all the stuff Kobe did during that three-peat, too? Would he be considered the second best player on the team?
> 
> 
> Kobe fans usually like to answer this question in the affirmative, because they just can't see how anyone can be considered Shaq's superior, because by implication that would make them Kobe's superior as well. Fact is, though, you have clowns arguing that Kobe was better than Shaq (or at least his equal) from '01-'03 *right now*, and Kobe has never even _approached_ Jordan's statistical dominance (or the statistical dominance he'd quite easily achieve in the same circumstances). What would people be saying about a player like *that*? Yeah...exactly.
> ...


you have little indication how jordan would have done with an offense built around someone else with the objective of getting someone else first opportunity at a good shot. or how an up-and-coming jordan would have played with an established superstar as the main cog. kobe almost invented the role. you never before had a 28+ ppg perimeter player setting up a dominant big man. penny was scoring 28 ppg in '96 when shaq missed the first 22 games of the year, and finished the year at about 22. take a look at tmac's per with and without yao. dr j's per when moses came to town. oscars when he joined kareem.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Second option, probably, but also probably not the second best player on the team. Let me ask you: if Jordan was putting up ~29.2 pts/6.7 reb/7.0 ast/2.6 stl/1 blk/52.5% shooting (which I feel is an entirely reasonable statline to assume for a 24-29 year old Jordan playing with a prime Shaq), in addition to the usual All-NBA defense and clutch heroics, would he really be viewed as the second best player on the team? What if Jordan's PER was 30.5 to Shaq's 30, and he did all the stuff Kobe did during that three-peat, too? Would he be considered the second best player on the team?
> 
> 
> Kobe fans usually like to answer this question in the affirmative, because they just can't see how anyone can be considered Shaq's superior, because by implication that would make them Kobe's superior as well. Fact is, though, you have clowns arguing that Kobe was better than Shaq (or at least his equal) from '01-'03 *right now*, and Kobe has never even _approached_ Jordan's statistical dominance (or the statistical dominance he'd quite easily achieve in the same circumstances). What would people be saying about a player like *that*? Yeah...exactly.
> ...


you have little indication how jordan would have done with an offense built around someone else with the objective of getting someone else first opportunity at a good shot. or how an up-and-coming jordan would have played with an established superstar as the main cog. kobe almost invented the role. you never before had a 28+ ppg perimeter player setting up a dominant big man. penny was scoring 28 ppg in '96 when shaq missed the first 22 games of the year, and finished the year at about 22. take a look at tmac's per with and without yao. dr j's per when moses came to town. oscars when he joined kareem. magic with kareem as the go-to and without.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

kflo said:


> you have little indication how jordan would have done with an offense built around someone else with the objective of getting someone else first opportunity at a good shot. or how an up-and-coming jordan would have played with an established superstar as the main cog. kobe almost invented the role. you never before had a 28+ ppg perimeter player setting up a dominant big man. penny was scoring 28 ppg in '96 when shaq missed the first 22 games of the year, and finished the year at about 22. take a look at tmac's per with and without yao. dr j's per when moses came to town. oscars when he joined kareem. magic with kareem as the go-to and without.


Doesn't matter. His career fg% is 45%. That's with and without Shaquille O'Neal on his team. That's not bad, but it's not great, not Jordan great by any means.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> If any of you actually understand how basketball works, you'd know that Jordan would have been a 2nd option to a prime Shaquille too. That's how good Shaquille was. Holding that against Kobe is just stupid, especially since he has only played 2 years without Shaquille, and one of those seasons was an injury-plagued one where he had plantar fasciitus the whole year, and the other year was last year.
> 
> What's funny is, for all the talk about Kobe's selfishness, if he leads a team to a title in the next 10 years, he will be one of the only players in history to win titles as both a 1st option and a 2nd option. To me that's showing how well you understand roles within the team concept.


I agree completely, and in fact, I said something similar on another board.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

> Tex Winter Compares Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan
> 
> March 29, 2007 1:59 PM
> 
> ...


http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-22-143/Tex-Winter-Compares-Kobe-Bryant-and-Michael-Jordan.html
http://lakernoise.blogspot.com/2007/03/tex-on-kobe-vs-mj.html


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

kflo said:


> you have little indication how jordan would have done with an offense built around someone else with the objective of getting someone else first opportunity at a good shot. or how an up-and-coming jordan would have played with an established superstar as the main cog. kobe almost invented the role. you never before had a 28+ ppg perimeter player setting up a dominant big man. penny was scoring 28 ppg in '96 when shaq missed the first 22 games of the year, and finished the year at about 22. take a look at tmac's per with and without yao. dr j's per when moses came to town. oscars when he joined kareem. magic with kareem as the go-to and without.


Here's the long and short of it:

You're pretty far gone if you think that while Jordan's ppg production would have dropped a bit, his efficieny wouldn't have *skyrocketed* playing alongside a player who drew multiple defenders and prevented him from being double-teamed (and allowed all his drives to go uncontested since their defender wouldn't leave them to help). Young Jordan shot 53-54% as the sole focus of every defense he faced. Yet now I'm to believe that he wouldn't be able to shoot a bit higher above league average than he did while averaging about 15% _fewer_ points? Come on, now...


Jordan routinely shot 5-6.5% above league average FG%. Now we have the following factors which will *help* his efficiency:

- Having to score about 15% fewer points, which means he only had to take the absolute best shots available to him.

- Having the most dominant big man of the last 35 years drawing multiple defenders in every halfcourt set, preventing double-teaming on him and allowing him to have a clear path to the basket once he got into the lane.

- Having to do less offensively would conserve his energy, which would have an effect (though perhaps marginal) on his efficiency.


League average FG% in 2001 was 44.3%; in 2002, it was 44.5%; in '03, it was 44.2%. Assume that, given the above factors, Jordan would have been able to shoot at least 7% above league average (given that he shot 6-6.5% above league average a few times as the lone option, this is reasonable; remember, this was before zone defense, too). That would put him at 51.5%...at the very least. 


Now, based on that 51.5% shooting, give him Kobe's average # of FGA over those 3 seasons (21.9 FGA/gm), and he'd hit 11.3 FG's per game, for 22.6 ppg on FG's assuming all 2-pointers. Now assume .7 3-FGM per game (again, entirely reasonable) and that becomes 23.3 ppg from field goals. Now give him 9 FTA/gm (conservative estimate since Kobe averaged 8.1 FTA/gm those 3 years, and young Jordan was much more aggressive than Kobe was), and given his 83.5% FT average, he hits 7.5 FT's, for a total of 30.8 ppg on 51.5% shooting.


See how easy and reasonable that was? As you can see, my 29.2 ppg/52% FG estimate was *entirely* within bounds. Hell, even if you assume worse shooting (~50%), you still end up with >29.2 ppg. Don't even attempt to tell me that Jordan wouldn't be able to get these numbers; you'll only expose yourself as a contrarian. No reasonable person who looks at the above analysis will take issue with anything I've said, because I've said nothing outlandish. I haven't overestimated -- if anything, I've _underestimated_. Give me a break, kflo...


I also love how -- in your carping manner -- you take issue with my conjecture, yet when Kobe fans baldly state (with no basis, mind you) that "Kobe would have averaged 40 ppg back then!" (yeah, maybe on 40-42.5% shooting), you're dead silent. Selective criticism is the worst kind.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

Everyone agrees that Jordan is the best ever, but that doesn't mean we can't compare Kobe to him, because Kobe is closest to Jordan so far.
I am fan of both Jordan and Kobe, the problem with some Jordan fans is that they think Jordan is a GOD, and he does everything perfect. They think no one even comes close to Jordan, which isn't necessarily true because they play in different eras. If both Kobe and Jordan played in the same era, then yes we can compare them without assumptions.
Some of you Jordan fans act like some old Jack Nicklaus and Sampras fans, who downplay everything Tiger and Federer does.


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## DaGreat1 (May 18, 2006)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Here's the long and short of it:
> 
> You're pretty far gone if you think that while Jordan's ppg production would have dropped a bit, his efficieny wouldn't have *skyrocketed* playing alongside a player who drew multiple defenders and prevented him from being double-teamed (and allowed all his drives to go uncontested since their defender wouldn't leave them to help). Young Jordan shot 53-54% as the sole focus of every defense he faced. Yet now I'm to believe that he wouldn't be able to shoot a bit higher above league average than he did while averaging about 15% _fewer_ points? Come on, now...
> 
> ...


G-S-M (Game-Set-Match) . great post


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

Jordan Career Field Goal Attempts-23 per game
Kobe Career Field Goal Attempts -18.7 per game.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

Jordan was better then Kobe. Have you ever met a Kobe fan that is the most rational person you ever met??? Never!

Kobe has opened my eyes with his scoring ability but don't compare him to Jordan. Kobe tanked game 7 last year. Jordan would never tank a game in the playoffs. Comparison ends at that point alone.

I have been waiting for a thread like this! You know why?
Because every time a Kobe backer talks about Kobe he doesn't do anything wrong. Lamar isn't good enough is one point and Kobe shouldn't pass the ball because everyone on the team sucks is another.

Now you have a thread that compares him to Jordan seriously. Now you get to see how far the Kobe homerism has gone. People are starting to believe he is better then MJ! hahahahahaha
You get to see how far the Kobe people will go to defend him. 

The true Kobe stopper is MJ! How about that!

You can argue all day long how great Kobe is and win because nobody will talk against you, but once you throw MJ out there the Kobe homerism looks lame. 


MJ is the Kobe stopper!


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Here's the long and short of it:
> 
> You're pretty far gone if you think that while Jordan's ppg production would have dropped a bit, his efficieny wouldn't have *skyrocketed* playing alongside a player who drew multiple defenders and prevented him from being double-teamed (and allowed all his drives to go uncontested since their defender wouldn't leave them to help). Young Jordan shot 53-54% as the sole focus of every defense he faced. Yet now I'm to believe that he wouldn't be able to shoot a bit higher above league average than he did while averaging about 15% _fewer_ points? Come on, now...
> 
> ...


again, i've shown you historically how it always happened. per went down when teamed with a dominant center. always, and usually by alot. you're hypothesizing jordan in a role he never had. you're starting point is the jordan we now know, and assuming that's the guy we get if we put him in his rookie year with the most dominant player in the league. kobe had to facilitate the offense, with the objective to get shaq looks, not with an offense built to get him looks. his scoring efficiency without shaq is better than it was with shaq, and this year is again a career high. you're mathematical exercise with jordan in a role he never knew is meaningless (hey, look at his dream team scoring efficiency!). again, we could assume tmac, or penny, or dr j, or oscar, or magic, or pippen, or billy cunningham, or drexler would all have big PER's if teammed with a dominant big man to take the pressure off of them, and we could come up with a formula to predict their stats, but we actually know what happened. it's not always so easy. what we do know is what kobe did with shaq, and what he's doing now. what he did with shaq was unprecedented for a perimeter player alongside a dominant big. what he's doing now, when given the freedom jordan was alloted much of his early career, is scoring in ways that recalls and pretty closely approximates jordan. 

again, i'm not here to argue kobe = jordan or that kobe's career = jordan. it's simply not an insult to jordan to compare them.


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## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

the new wilt vs. russell

let's debate for the next 50 yrs.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Tragedy said:


> I agree completely, and in fact, I said something similar on another board.



You agree? Then it MUST be wrong.


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## g-dog-rice#2 (Jan 29, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> Jordan was better then Kobe. Have you ever met a Kobe fan that is the most rational person you ever met??? Never!
> 
> *Kobe has opened my eyes with his scoring ability but don't compare him to Jordan. Kobe tanked game 7 last year. Jordan would never tank a game in the playoffs.* Comparison ends at that point alone.


I'm so sick of people saying that Kobe tanked game 7 last year. He was the one that kept them in the game in the 1st half. In the 2nd half, the Suns started to pour it on, the Lakers were getting crushed.

Sure, he could have jacked up 20 shots in the 2nd half to try to bring the Lakers back but then people would be saying he is a ball hog. Kobe was trying to get his teammates involved, and tried to feed the ball inside -- which was the plan from the beginning of the series.

People who actually know Kobe say that he is one of the most competitive people they know. He didn't tank game 7.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Jizzy said:


> You agree? Then it MUST be wrong.



LOL:lol:


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

compsciguy78 said:


> Jordan was better then Kobe. Have you ever met a Kobe fan that is the most rational person you ever met??? Never!
> *
> Kobe has opened my eyes with his scoring ability but don't compare him to Jordan. Kobe tanked game 7 last year. Jordan would never tank a game in the playoffs. Comparison ends at that point alone.*
> 
> ...


So what do you call Jordan taking 8 shots against Detroit in the 1989 playoff loss?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

kflo said:
 

> again, i've shown you historically how it always happened. per went down when teamed with a dominant center. always, and usually by alot. you're hypothesizing jordan in a role he never had. you're starting point is the jordan we now know, and assuming that's the guy we get if we put him in his rookie year with the most dominant player in the league. kobe had to facilitate the offense, with the objective to get shaq looks, not with an offense built to get him looks. his scoring efficiency without shaq is better than it was with shaq, and this year is again a career high. you're mathematical exercise with jordan in a role he never knew is meaningless (hey, look at his dream team scoring efficiency!). again, we could assume tmac, or penny, or dr j, or oscar, or magic, or pippen, or billy cunningham, or drexler would all have big PER's if teammed with a dominant big man to take the pressure off of them, and we could come up with a formula to predict their stats, but we actually know what happened. it's not always so easy. what we do know is what kobe did with shaq, and what he's doing now. what he did with shaq was unprecedented for a perimeter player alongside a dominant big. what he's doing now, when given the freedom jordan was alloted much of his early career, is scoring in ways that recalls and pretty closely approximates jordan.
> 
> again, i'm not here to argue kobe = jordan or that kobe's career = jordan. it's simply not an insult to jordan to compare them.


Peeps would even say that Jordan was the star of the title-winning Tar Heels. They will never accept he played second-fiddle to James Worthy (and didn't win again after James getting drafted)...


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Drewbs said:


> So what do you call Jordan taking 8 shots against Detroit in the 1989 playoff loss?


You mean the game where he still finished with 5 rebounds against an intimidating front line (not 4 rebounds against a soft front line), 9 assists (and many more assist-worthy passes off of great playmaking), and played great defense all game? Yeah, I have that game on DVD. It wasn't an elimination game, either. 

You're comparing _that_ to a game where Kobe simply *vanished* in the second half? The criticism leveled against Kobe's game 7 performance was never *only* about the amount of shots he took in the second half (though Kobe fans like to act as if it was and attack that strawman). It was about the fact that he did *absolutely nothing to make any sort of impact on the floor*. He didn't make sharp passes; he didn't make hard cuts and move off the ball, forcing the defense to shift and creating opportunities for others; he didn't look to post up, draw the double team, and kick it to the open man; he didn't get on the glass; he didn't play *any* sort of defense; he didn't penetrate and dish. In short, he did nothing. Zero. Nada. Zilch.


Know what he did all second half of game 7? Stood a couple of feet outside the three-point line and wafted casual passes around the horn to a teammate...and then stood there. That's it. That's the entire extent of his actions in the second half. But you go on believing that people are only criticizing him because he didn't take 15 shots or score 20+ points that half. I'm sure it allows you to sleep at night thinking there was nothing wrong there. The rest of the thinking world -- the part which watches Kobe pretty extensively and realizes that he plays *nothing* like that in any other games -- realizes that that's nonsense, though.


This is why Kobe groupies love to talk about how he was "sticking to the gameplan." Here's a clue: while the gameplan may very well have called for Kobe to defer a bit offensively, I'm absolutely *certain* that Phil Jackson did not explicitly instruct Kobe to not do *anything* positive on the court that second half, and to just sit outside the arc and loaf around. I'm sure Phil didn't say, "Kobe, make sure you don't rebound, move off the ball, penetrate, grab rebounds, or play defense this half, okay?" There are a very limited set of explanations for Kobe's second half that game:


*1)* He gave up, either out of frustration or fatigue.

*2)* He was playing with some sort of agenda, as if to prove to the team that they couldn't win without him scoring big (despite the team-oriented tone that was set earlier in the series by Kobe himself).

*3)* He's just that bad of a ballplayer, and not nearly as good as his fans claim. He doesn't understand how to (or doesn't have the ability to) impact games unless he's firing away offensively.


Choose your poison. No other explanation adequately explains the facts on the floor imo.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Jordan23Forever said:


> You mean the game where he still finished with 5 rebounds against an intimidating front line (not 4 rebounds against a soft front line), 9 assists (and many more assist-worthy passes off of great playmaking), and played great defense all game? Yeah, I have that game on DVD.
> 
> You're comparing _that_ to a game where Kobe simply *vanished* in the second half? The criticism leveled against Kobe's game 7 performance was never *only* about the amount of shots he took in the second half (though Kobe fans like to act as if it was and attack that strawman). It was about the fact that he did *absolutely nothing to make any sort of impact on the floor*. He didn't make sharp passes; he didn't make hard cuts and move off the ball, forcing the defense to shift and creating opportunities for others; he didn't look to post up, draw the double team, and kick it to the open man; he didn't get on the glass; he didn't play *any* sort of defense; he didn't penetrate and dish. In short, he did nothing. Zero. Nada. Zilch.
> 
> ...


Its the same damn thing man. 

You're getting real reveisionist when it comes to MJ he caught alot of flack about his scoring and selfishness and getting coaches fired and players traded. it wasn't all gravy with his gambling and adultery either. The media just loved him because of his breathtaking talent had never seen anything like it before. No matter what Kobe does he'll always be the 2nd coming. people hate Kobe for all the same reason they loved MJ. 

lets keep it real. 

MJ in Detroit was the same as Kobe in Phoenix.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> Peeps would even say that Jordan was the star of the title-winning Tar Heels. They will never accept he played second-fiddle to James Worthy (and didn't win again after James getting drafted)...


Also that without pippen for his career MJ wss below .500 winning percentage. 

Just revisionist history. 

there are critics today that suggest young MJ and prime Shaq would have had real problems. MJ might be more manic about being the man than Kobe is or was with shaq.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

jazzy1 said:


> Its the same damn thing man.
> 
> *You're getting real reveisionist when it comes to MJ he caught alot of flack about his scoring and selfishness and getting coaches fired and players traded. *it wasn't all gravy with his gambling and adultery either. The media just loved him because of his breathtaking talent had never seen anything like it before. No matter what Kobe does he'll always be the 2nd coming. people hate Kobe for all the same reason they loved MJ.


People really don't know stuff.

Craig Hodges once said that he thought black athletes didn't give back enough to the community.
It was seen as a shot at Jordan.
In a matter of time, Craig Hodges was not with the Bulls anymore.

Go figure...


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> Its the same damn thing man.


No, it isn't.



> You're getting real reveisionist when it comes to MJ he caught alot of flack about his scoring and selfishness and getting coaches fired and players traded. it wasn't all gravy with his gambling and adultery either. The media just loved him because of his breathtaking talent had never seen anything like it before. No matter what Kobe does he'll always be the 2nd coming. people hate Kobe for all the same reason they loved MJ.


What does that have to do with the fact that Kobe's production and dominance on the court is nowhere near Jordan's?



> lets keep it real.


Yes, let's.



> MJ in Detroit was the same as Kobe in Phoenix.


Actually, they're not at all similar, and I already explained why. How are 9 assists (should've had about 13, actually, but Grant/Pip were cold) the same as 1 assist and no assist-worthy passes? How is playing great defense all game the same as playing zero defense? How is penetrating and dishing and moving wthout the ball the same as not doing so? How is playing with high energy even while taking what for you is a low number of shots the same as playing with absolutely zero energy and just standing outside, lobbing casual passes around, and then playing the spectator?


The fact of the matter is that I've seen both games and you haven't, yet you desperately want it to be the case that Jordan played the same way Kobe did in the second half of game 7. News flash: he didn't. Stick to speaking about what you know. As I said, Kobe fans like to act as though it's all about the 3 shots when it really isn't -- it's about the total lack of any sort of effort or impact. You're a perfect example of the type of obstinate groupie I was talking about, one who refuses to concede the most basic points even when they're laid out in striking detail. For shame.


As noted, there are only a limited number of explanations for his play that half. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that he had trouble finding any sort of balance in his game and so just "shut down" for whatever reason -- maybe a mental block or something. It wouldn't be the first time Kobe has had trouble finding a balance between scoring/team play; hell, even diehard Laker fans have lamented this phenomenon on a number of occasions -- either Kobe jacks up 16 shots and scores 25 points in one half with 0 assists or he has 5-7 assists and 1-5 points. He's just...odd sometimes. I think that's what happened, personally -- it's just that it happened at the worst possible time. I don't buy that he consciously "quit;" I just think he has some basketball IQ issues he needs to work on and they happened to manifest themselves at an inopportune time.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> What does that have to do with the fact that Kobe's production and dominance on the court is *nowhere near *Jordan's?


Please explain this.
Spetialy (sp?) the bolded part...


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Please explain this.
> Spetialy (sp?) the bolded part...


Perhaps you're the only one who missed my long post directed at you a couple of pages back? Or maybe it just traumatized you so much that you've auto-erased it from your memory.

Fact: Kobe has never been anywhere near as statistically dominant as Jordan.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Perhaps you're the only one who missed my long post directed at you a couple of pages back? Or maybe it just traumatized you so much that you've auto-erased it from your memory.


Oh, that thingy? I thought you were kidding, really...



> Fact: Kobe has never been anywhere near as statistically dominant as Jordan.


Fact: Only in his dreams would Jordan score 80 points in a game.

Fact: Only in his dreams would Jordan score 60 points in 3 quarters.

Fact: Kobe's streak of 40 point games a couple of years ago, and this years streak of 50 point games rival anything Jordan did, scoring-wise.

So, when you are talking stats, are you talking about rebounds? Assists? Blocks? Steals?


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> Fact: Only in his dreams would Jordan score 80 points in a game.
> 
> Fact: Only in his dreams would Jordan score 60 points in 3 quarters.
> 
> ...


The first two are hearsay, and maybe you're confusing yourself with Jordan? 
The third is an opinion, i guess to you, 10-15 games elevates a player to being on par with the best ever. I mean, come on! Kobe scored 81 right? He HAS to be better than Mike to score that many points! The fact of the matter is that while very talented on the offensive end, he has only averaged 30+ppg in a season ONCE before this year, Jordan did that for a career. How many times has Kobe been scoring champ? Once? Jordan has been scoring champ 10x's. You just hate Jordan don't you? Kobe isn't as good as Jordan. He will never be as good as Jordan. In all likelyhood, he will be known as the poor-man's Jordan... homeless, destitute, crazy man's Jordan imo.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

Jordan23Forever said:


> You mean the game where he still finished with 5 rebounds against an intimidating front line (not 4 rebounds against a soft front line), 9 assists (and many more assist-worthy passes off of great playmaking), and played great defense all game? Yeah, I have that game on DVD. It wasn't an elimination game, either.
> 
> You're comparing _that_ to a game where Kobe simply *vanished* in the second half? The criticism leveled against Kobe's game 7 performance was never *only* about the amount of shots he took in the second half (though Kobe fans like to act as if it was and attack that strawman). It was about the fact that he did *absolutely nothing to make any sort of impact on the floor*. He didn't make sharp passes; he didn't make hard cuts and move off the ball, forcing the defense to shift and creating opportunities for others; he didn't look to post up, draw the double team, and kick it to the open man; he didn't get on the glass; he didn't play *any* sort of defense; he didn't penetrate and dish. In short, he did nothing. Zero. Nada. Zilch.
> 
> ...



You can throw the kitchen sink at Kobe groupies and they will still deny the evidence. 

I thought at least Jordan was untouchable when it came to Kobe's hype and praise. 

I'm starting to realize that they are trying to prove an argument that doesn't even exit in my mind. They are trying to prove to me that Kobe is better when he has not come close to Jordans accomplishments except for scoring, and he still falls short in many scoring categories.

Its a no win argument. I tried it many times and logic doesn't win. 
When Kobe is involved there is always a spin to his greatness.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> You can throw the kitchen sink at Kobe groupies and they will still deny the evidence.
> 
> I thought at least Jordan was untouchable when it came to Kobe's hype and praise.
> 
> ...


Just remember it works both ways. Before you pinch someone, try to pinch yourself, if it hurts, then it will hurt others too.
When you throw a handful of dirt in the air, half of the dirt will land on yourself.
Jordan, and some of the Phoenix fans are as bad as some of the Kobe fans.
By the way you are such a bandwagon fan, not a long time ago, you had your signature as Kobe, the next MVP and you were defending Kobe like crazy. Maybe you are trying to make people think Kobe fans are bad, by pretending to be Kobe fan that time.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Fact: Only in his dreams would Jordan score 80 points in a game.


The Raptors game represented the perfect storm for Kobe, not to take anything away from it.



> fact: Only in his dreams would Jordan score 60 points in 3 quarters.


If he took 31 shots and 25 FT's through 3 quarters in a game where he was already hot? He certainly could have.



> Fact: Kobe's streak of 40 point games a couple of years ago, and this years streak of 50 point games rival anything Jordan did, scoring-wise.


Yeah, in terms of games or stretches of games. How about seasons? How about efficiency and consistency? Nice opponents, btw -- what were they again, like a combined 100 wins and 170 losses?



> So, when you are talking stats, are you talking about rebounds? Assists? Blocks? Steals?


Everything. Scoring (efficiently and at volume), rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, TO's...everything. Allow me to post this again for you so you have some idea of the gaping chasm between Jordan and Kobe statistically:



Jordan23Forever said:


> Something that never ceases to amaze me is how people can compare a player who has never led the league or even finished top 2 in any aggregate statistical metric (EFF, PER, Birdies etc.) to a player who led the league in such categories 15+ times and finished top 2 nearly half a dozen more.
> 
> Something that never ceases to amaze me is how a player whose *best single-season PER is 28.0* is compared to another player whose 11 season career average upon retirement in 1998 was *29.2* (that's right folks -- Jordan's 11 season average was better than Kobe's best year). Or how one whose PER at age 28 is only marginally better than the other's at age 35.


Spin it any way you like, but it's even greater than the disparity in production between Kobe and Shaq, which was already huge and is still huge since Kobe's been on his own.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Kobe's not a better player or scorer then Jordan. More importantly Kobe isn't even the best Laker scorer of all time. People put the game of basketball into perspective.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

What's funny is that nobody is even saying Kobe is better than Jordan. I'm not. kflo is surely not. It's really not even about Kobe. Everybody arguing on Kobe's side is really just trying to knock down this idea that Jordan is this untouchable figure who is so overly-protected by his fans. Let's talk about how Wade's numbers this year are as good as almost any Jordan year, and how he has led a team to a title way younger than Jordan. I'm sure we'll hear all about how Wade is just a product of officiating, and didn't have to play in the dreaded handchecking era, and has Shaquille. How about LeBron? I'm pretty sure he is a better passer and rebounder than Jordan, and this is a guy who scores an efficient 30 a night when he wants. Doing all this at an age that Jordan wasn't even in the league. 

These three guys we have in the league are very very good. They may not be as good as Jordan, and may never be, but it's perfectly fair to compare them to Jordan. It's an absolute insult to the modern era of basketball, and those three in particular, to think they're not.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> The Raptors game represented the perfect storm for Kobe, not to take anything away from it.


What? No. Well unless if you mean that being behind motivated Kobe to score 81 then yes but people seem to forget the same defense held Kobe to just 13 points earlier that season. Kobe scoring 81 was more of a product of Kobe being *unstoppable* than the Raps defense. It didn't matter what D the Raps threw in front of Kobe. He was hitting shots after being fouled, knocking down 30 foot three pointers, splitting double teams AND one. It was a masterful performance.

Kobe is not better than Jordan in scoring if we were to compare careers. No way. It is not even close once you add up Jordan's playoff scoring. However if you asked me who is the better scorer disregarding their career numbers and instead focusing on just comparing the scorer Kobe is now or in the last couple years to Jordan in his scoring prime whenever you put that as it gets much closer.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> *What's funny is that nobody is even saying Kobe is better than Jordan. I'm not. kflo is surely not. It's really not even about Kobe.* Everybody arguing on Kobe's side is really just trying to knock down this idea that *Jordan is this untouchable figure who is so overly-protected by his fans.* Let's talk about how Wade's numbers this year are as good as almost any Jordan year, and how he has led a team to a title way younger than Jordan. I'm sure we'll hear all about how Wade is just a product of officiating, and didn't have to play in the dreaded handchecking era, and has Shaquille. How about LeBron? I'm pretty sure he is a better passer and rebounder than Jordan, and this is a guy who scores an efficient 30 a night when he wants. Doing all this at an age that Jordan wasn't even in the league.
> 
> These three guys we have in the league are very very good. They may not be as good as Jordan, and may never be, but it's perfectly fair to compare them to Jordan. It's an absolute insult to the modern era of basketball, and those three in particular, to think they're not.


In my opinion these are the best comments in this thread. Outside of a few Kobe fanboys, no one in their right mind would say Kobe is better than Jordan, because that would foolish, so I don't understand why people are arguing as if people are saying this. At the minimum Jordan is the second greatest player to ever play this game, and that is absolute truth. Jordan by his accomplishments doesn't need defending, but it's perfectly reasonable to draw comparisons to today's elite wing players (Kobe, Wade, James, McGrady, etc) so I really don't understand why people get so bent out of shape when the comparisons are made. However, I think people have just become too emotionally attached to Jordan to be able to understand any of this.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> What's funny is that nobody is even saying Kobe is better than Jordan. I'm not. kflo is surely not. It's really not even about Kobe. Everybody arguing on Kobe's side is really just trying to knock down this idea that Jordan is this untouchable figure who is so overly-protected by his fans. Let's talk about how Wade's numbers this year are as good as almost any Jordan year, and how he has led a team to a title way younger than Jordan. I'm sure we'll hear all about how Wade is just a product of officiating, and didn't have to play in the dreaded handchecking era, and has Shaquille. How about LeBron? I'm pretty sure he is a better passer and rebounder than Jordan, and this is a guy who scores an efficient 30 a night when he wants. Doing all this at an age that Jordan wasn't even in the league.
> 
> These three guys we have in the league are very very good. They may not be as good as Jordan, and may never be, but it's perfectly fair to compare them to Jordan. It's an absolute insult to the modern era of basketball, and those three in particular, to think they're not.


As I type this the Yes network is playing Jordan's top 10 plays from the 72 win season.

LET. IT. GO.

He's gone.


The league will never move on until they let go of Jordan.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> What's funny is that nobody is even saying Kobe is better than Jordan. I'm not. kflo is surely not. It's really not even about Kobe. Everybody arguing on Kobe's side is really just trying to knock down this idea that Jordan is this untouchable figure who is so overly-protected by his fans.


If that's all people are trying to do, then you're going to have a very difficult time explaining some of the comments in this thread, specifically PauloCatarino's. But it's okay -- continue to carp about those who are pointing out what a *clearly* better player Jordan was than Kobe while ignoring those professing deluded beliefs. Very consistent of you.


Also, if that's all you're trying to accomplish, then why kvetch about every post which speaks about Jordan's superiority? The evidence is there. If people don't like it, then they can stop making foolish comparisons. Take kflo for instance -- he'll swear up and down that he's not trying to assert that Kobe >= Jordan, yet every post of mine which factually demonstrates Jordan's superiority is met with some sort of criticism. That's called "being disingenuous" in my book. If you don't disagree, then let the statements stand, same as you guys have no problem letting all the other nonsensical comments stand (e.g., Paulo's).




> Let's talk about how Wade's numbers this year are as good as almost any Jordan year, and how he has led a team to a title way younger than Jordan.


Good for him. And it's absolutely true (except that "as good as almost any Jordan year" excludes about 4-5 seasons of Jordan's; more if we factor in defense). I have never and will never detract from a player so long as he actually _does it_ on the court. Leading a team to a title is something tangible. Producing at the level that Wade is producing is something tangible. Factual. Good for him -- it's a feather in his cap. The difference in these situations is that Wade actually *did stuff*, whereas Kobe never has (speaking specifically of statistical domination and leading a team to a title). Yet his fans would like you to ignore all this. That's why they speak in hypotheticals (e.g., "if Kobe wanted to, he *could* lead the league in scoring/PER/EFF"; "if Kobe wanted to, he *could* average 32/7/7/48%" etc.). How about they stop focusing on what, in their skewed estimation, he "could" do if he "wanted to," and start focusing on _what he's actually done_.


And I've already laid out what he's actually done: 3 rings as an integral yet secondary player on a championship team, soon-to-be 2 scoring titles, a few years at a ~top 20 all-time level ('02, '03, '07) and one season at an all-time level ('06), several defensive team selections, some impressive (yet ultimately meaningless) scoring records over the course of one game or a stretch of games...and that's it. 



> I'm sure we'll hear all about how Wade is just a product of officiating, and didn't have to play in the dreaded handchecking era, and has Shaquille.


Actually no. See above. I'll never cut down a player so long as he produces and gets results on the court, especially season-long or over several seasons. Kobe has simply never produced at a level which would justify his insane hype, to be frank. Never. Last year was by far his best individual season at 28 PER. With his hype train rolling way back in the early 00's, you'd think dude had already posted a few seasons of 29+ PER or something.



> How about LeBron? I'm pretty sure he is a better passer and rebounder than Jordan,


Passer, possibly (by volume yes, by skill, no). Not a better rebounder, though (but comparable). Rebound rate, offensive boardwork, and rebounds per 40 all show this.



> and this is a guy who scores an efficient 30 a night when he wants. Doing all this at an age that Jordan wasn't even in the league.


Again, that's great for him. I don't disparage players who can prove it on the court. If Kobe had led the league in PER twice in the last three seasons (which you'd think a player of his alleged caliber should do), we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Make no mistake, I think Kobe's a phenomenal player -- I have him at top 19-24 all-time, and he's top 3 in the league right now. I just don't think that he's anywhere near what his groupies make him out to be, however, and that rankles them. 



> These three guys we have in the league are very very good. They may not be as good as Jordan, and may never be, but it's perfectly fair to compare them to Jordan. It's an absolute insult to the modern era of basketball, and those three in particular, to think they're not.


Only if the comparison is justified. In none of their cases is it so. If Lebron and Wade continue producing at the level they are for another few seasons and continue improving team-wise while winning an MVP or two, then yeah, start comparing. If Kobe starts producing better and wins another ring as the leader of his team along with an MVP/Finals MVP, start comparing.

Right now, though? The comparison's aren't warranted.



> What? No. Well unless if you mean that being behind motivated Kobe to score 81 then yes but people seem to forget the same defense held Kobe to just 13 points earlier that season. Kobe scoring 81 was more of a product of Kobe being unstoppable than the Raps defense. It didn't matter what D the Raps threw in front of Kobe. He was hitting shots after being fouled, knocking down 30 foot three pointers, splitting double teams AND one. It was a masterful performance.


No, by "the perfect storm," I meant that circumstances conspired perfectly to produce the 81-point game. These circumstances -- many of which aren't under Kobe's direct control -- included:

-- Him being scorching hot (he generally can't control when he gets into the zone like that)

-- Him being allowed to take 46 shots in a game where he was already scorching hot (dictated by the flow of the game as well as his coach)

-- They played the worst defensive team in the league, and they made no effort to get the ball out of Kobe's hands (doubles, traps etc.) until several minutes into the 4the quarter, when they were already in the penalty

-- The game being close enough to justify him playing the entire game (save for some stat-padding after the 3:30 mark, where he scored ~8-10 points)

-- Him getting 21 FT's in a game where all of the above happened (dependent on how the refs are calling the game)


The odds of all that happening in any one game are very, very slim. Some nights you can't buy a call, even when you take a ton of shots (e.g., Jordan took 49 shots but only got 11 FT's in an overtime game, and ended up with 64 points; give him another 9-10 FTA and he's in the 70's). Some nights you'll be hot but the game is well in hand and you sit (happened to Jordan a ton, and will happen to Kobe more as his team improves). Some nights the coach will try to rein you in. 


Again, I'm not trying to take anything away from the performance -- he did what he did, and few, if any, players in history could have duplicated it. All I was saying was that everything had to come together perfectly for it to happen. It's a set of circumstances not a lot of players have found themselves in.


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## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

Tragedy said:


> As I type this the Yes network is playing Jordan's top 10 plays from the 72 win season.
> 
> LET. IT. GO.
> 
> ...



great remark. very zen.

couple extra observations (not that we need any more here really),

over the past 20 years i can't tell whose fans are more miopic and immature, jordan's or kobe's. talk about having your head up someone else's rump.

how many of you jordan lovers were bulls fans before mike? how many of you were even alive before mike? how many of you stayed bulls fans after mike? i find over affection for one player trumping team and/or sport quite dubious.

many of the posters in this thread (and all over this board, really) will tout rock solid stats out of one side of their mouth (er, or keyboard) and then argue that stats don't show the whole story out of the other. a tad schizo, no?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

here's your problem j23f - you cannot factually demonstrate jordan's superiority. you can point to superior production and superior team results, but that does not prove overall superiority. you can claim greater relative dominance, but superiority, as a player, is subjective. there are those who would claim that hakeem was better than jordan, even though his production was lower and he didn't win as much. he also didn't have as strong a supporting cast as jordan had, ever. so, it's possible to have the subjective opinion that hakeem was better, that his defensive impact didn't show up in individual stats. many will claim moses to be superior to robinson, even though he won less titles, and was less dominant statistically. same as kareem vs wilt vs shaq vs russell. different era's, different competition. 

my point is that kobe's ability to score the basketball, today, is comparable to jordan's in his heyday. now, you can bring up facts to support your position that it's not true, but you can't factually prove a subjective opinion. the jordanites tend to speak in absolutes when discussing his airness. 

personally, i rank mj at #1. i've argued that position many times. i don't call it a fact.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

kflo said:


> here's your problem j23f - you cannot factually demonstrate jordan's superiority. you can point to superior production and superior team results, but that does not prove overall superiority. you can claim greater relative dominance, but superiority, as a player, is subjective.


So basically you're of the "anyone can claim anything" school of thought, huh? Opinions are like orifices, after all...

I prefer to have a more or less informed opinion (even if it's ultimately subjective) rather than one which can't be substantiated *at all*.



> my point is that kobe's ability to score the basketball, today, is comparable to jordan's in his heyday. now, you can bring up facts to support your position that it's not true, but you can't factually prove a subjective opinion. the jordanites tend to speak in absolutes when discussing his airness.


Kobe's actually fairly close to Jordan in terms of scoring, but not as close as his fans think. When he's really "on," he's the most explosive scorer ever, but I think anyone would be foolish to take a guy who can explode occasionally but is only moderately efficient at volume overall over a guy who can also explode (though not as high due to lack of range) for 50-60 pts but will also give you 30-40 points consistently at great efficiency.



> personally, i rank mj at #1. i've argued that position many times. i don't call it a fact.


If you'll notice, I've never stated that Jordan >> Kobe is a "fact." I've stated that Kobe has never achieved nearly the statistical dominance that Jordan did, and that *is* a fact.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Theonee said:


> Just remember it works both ways. Before you pinch someone, try to pinch yourself, if it hurts, then it will hurt others too.
> When you throw a handful of dirt in the air, half of the dirt will land on yourself.
> Jordan, and some of the Phoenix fans are as bad as some of the Kobe fans.
> By the way you are such a bandwagon fan, not a long time ago, you had your signature as Kobe, the next MVP and you were defending Kobe like crazy. Maybe you are trying to make people think Kobe fans are bad, by pretending to be Kobe fan that time.


wow, you just had to get a shot in at Phoenix didn't you? We're just the best team in NBA history to never win a title... let us win one?


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## tad (Aug 4, 2004)

i'm pro-MJ to the core, but I can easily acknowledge the fact Kobe (when he's on fire) is way more explosive scorer than Jordan. This is a proven fact now like the fact (healthy) Carter is better and more spectacular dunker than Jordan.

So what? Does it take anything away from Jordan's accomplishments and his status? Of course no.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Good for him. And it's absolutely true (except that "as good as almost any Jordan year" excludes about 4-5 seasons of Jordan's; more if we factor in defense). I have never and will never detract from a player so long as he actually _does it_ on the court. Leading a team to a title is something tangible. Producing at the level that Wade is producing is something tangible. Factual. Good for him -- it's a feather in his cap. The difference in these situations is that Wade actually *did stuff*, whereas Kobe never has (speaking specifically of statistical domination and leading a team to a title).


This is exactly what we're talking about. Wade and LeBron actually have tangible accomplishments in their favor according to you, and Kobe doesn't. 

So why is Kobe widely considered a better player than both of them? 

For the same reason comparing him to Jordan is not out of line. For the same reason Tex Winter and Phil Jackson see Kobe and Michael as almost identical. Because they watch the games.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> This is exactly what we're talking about. Wade and LeBron actually have tangible accomplishments in their favor according to you, and Kobe doesn't.
> 
> So why is Kobe widely considered a better player than both of them?
> 
> For the same reason comparing him to Jordan is not out of line. For the same reason Tex Winter and Phil Jackson see Kobe and Michael as almost identical. Because they watch the games.


You're misunderstanding me. I myself realize that Kobe is closest to Jordan in terms of style and skills. What I'm saying is that *even that fact* means nothing unless you go out on the basketball court and *A)* produce and *B)* win. The end.


Jordan, if he was the same exact player from a skill standpoint, would have been ranked no higher than top 15-18 unless he produced at an all-time level (4 of the top 10 PER's in history and 7 of the top 20, led the league in Birdies and EFF several times) and won (both winning % and championships). Kobe can have all the skills in the world (and while I believe he's less skilled than Jordan overall, he's certainly one of the most skilled players in the game today), but it doesn't mean bubkes unless you produce. Because really, in many ways, production validates skills. "Skills" (alleged skills) without production is just speculation imo. Unless you *actually* grab a rebound, make a play, score a basket, steal the ball, or block a shot, your "skills" don't really mean anything, do they? So Kobe has half the equation (diverse skill-set) and Lebron/Wade have half the equation (on the court results/production). Really, the reasons why Kobe is compared to Jordan more than Lebron/Wade are his mental edge, clutchness, and defense.


But I do think the comparisons are ridiculous when you start to go beyond merely comparing them from a stylistic, mental, or "two-way player" standpoint to comparing Kobe favorably to Jordan as an overall player (overall player, not just scorer). I think that's rubbish, really, and I've seen both of them extensively.


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## Blink4 (Jan 17, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> You're misunderstanding me. I myself realize that Kobe is closest to Jordan in terms of style and skills. What I'm saying is that *even that fact* means nothing unless you go out on the basketball court and *A)* produce and *B)* win. The end.
> 
> 
> Jordan, if he was the same exact player from a skill standpoint, would have been ranked no higher than top 15-18 unless he produced at an all-time level (4 of the top 10 PER's in history and 7 of the top 20, led the league in Birdies and EFF several times) and won (both winning % and championships). Kobe can have all the skills in the world (and while I believe he's less skilled than Jordan overall, he's certainly one of the most skilled players in the game today), but it doesn't mean bubkes unless you produce. Because really, in many ways, production validates skills. "Skills" (alleged skills) without production is just speculation imo. Unless you *actually* grab a rebound, make a play, score a basket, steal the ball, or block a shot, your "skills" don't really mean anything, do they? So Kobe has half the equation (diverse skill-set) and Lebron/Wade have half the equation (on the court results/production). Really, the reasons why Kobe is compared to Jordan more than Lebron/Wade are his mental edge, clutchness, and defense.
> ...


Since when does Kobe not produce? He produces statistically, averaging 30-5-5, and has a team with subpar teammates in the 6th playoff spot. He has won 3 rings, and has performed very well in the playoffs during his career. How is this not producing? And on top of that to talk about Lebrons on the court results? What has he done on the court to make his "production" better than Kobe's? Put up lesser stats? Win less rings? I really dont know what your trying to get at here.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Jordan23Forever said:


> So basically you're of the "anyone can claim anything" school of thought, huh? Opinions are like orifices, after all...
> 
> I prefer to have a more or less informed opinion (even if it's ultimately subjective) rather than one which can't be substantiated *at all*.


no, i'm of the open your ears and eyes and try and look beyond your own ingrained thoughts school. look at the entire picture and recognize different circumstances and how they might contribute to data points. 



Jordan23Forever said:


> Kobe's actually fairly close to Jordan in terms of scoring, but not as close as his fans think. When he's really "on," he's the most explosive scorer ever, but I think anyone would be foolish to take a guy who can explode occasionally but is only moderately efficient at volume overall over a guy who can also explode (though not as high due to lack of range) for 50-60 pts but will also give you 30-40 points consistently at great efficiency.


in 1992, jordan was arguably at the height of his powers. he had a ts% under 45% in 7 of 80 games (8 of 78 in '93). his pace adjusted pts/40 was 29.9. in 2006, kobe had a ts% under 45% in 10 of 80 games (7 of 66 in '07), and had a pts/40 of 34.6. both had a ts% under 40% in 3 of 80 games. jordan had a ts% under his average in 37 games (41 of 78 in '93), kobe in 41 games (34 of 66 in '07). these numbers don't point to the large discrepancy in consistency you're referencing.




Jordan23Forever said:


> If you'll notice, I've never stated that Jordan >> Kobe is a "fact." I've stated that Kobe has never achieved nearly the statistical dominance that Jordan did, and that *is* a fact.


he's in his 3rd year without a dominant offensive force next to him, and his scoring these 2 years has been pretty unique. particularly for stretches when he appears to be given more of a green light to carry the scoring load. his statistical dominance for his career can't be expected to approach jordan's CAREER because of his circumstances. his 2 year run aint bad. 40 ppg month. 50+ 4 straight. he's done things jordan hasn't done. he hasn't done it as long or as consistently. but he's shown stretches, long stretches, that are at least comparable. don't know why that's too much to handle. i know, i know, jordan blah blah blah. just listen up for once. you don't have to agree.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> You're misunderstanding me. I myself realize that Kobe is closest to Jordan in terms of style and skills. What I'm saying is that *even that fact* means nothing unless you go out on the basketball court and *A)* produce and *B)* win. The end.


No, it's not the end, because Kobe has more rings than Jordan did at the same age, but somehow they don't count. I think Kobe has been on an under 500 team once in his career, and it was the year he was out for a month, and had plantar fasciitus the whole year. 

Production is not going to be there for Kobe compared to Jordan, because Jordan was a better all-around player, and my only contention is that Kobe is every bit as good of a scorer as Jordan was.


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## tad (Aug 4, 2004)

btw, the very fact we can seriously discuss this issue itself is a huge compliment to Kobe.


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

I absolutely hate when people go to the same old "how many titles did kobe win by himself excuse".....WTF!!....how many titles did Shaq win by himself?...or wade?....or even jordan??....


GTFOH with that bull****....

nobody wins titles by themselves so give it a rest


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Also, Jordan might have put up some of finest statistical seasons in NBA history, but correct me if I'm wrong, didn't most basketball enthusiasts consider him a loser for the majority of those seasons? Wasn't he bashed for his selfish play for 8 seasons until he finally stopped dominating the offense of his team and won a championship?


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Drewbs said:


> Also, Jordan might have put up some of finest statistical seasons in NBA history, but correct me if I'm wrong, didn't most basketball enthusiasts consider him a loser for the majority of those seasons? Wasn't he bashed for his selfish play for 8 seasons until he finally stopped dominating the offense of his team and won a championship?


He stopped being bashed for being a ballhog circa 1989, '90 at the latest. So that's 3 full seasons, possibly 4 (and that particular criticism didn't begin to manifest itself until '87, anyway, so it's even less than 4 years). It also didn't take him 8 years to win a championship; he won his first in his 7th season.

People didn't consider him a "loser" in '88 and '89. In fact, many people felt he was the best player in the game, and the vast majority had him as top 2 at the very least (along w/Magic).


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Jordan23Forever said:


> He stopped being bashed for being a ballhog circa 1989, '90 at the latest. So that's 3 full seasons, possibly 4 (and that particular criticism didn't begin to manifest itself until '87, anyway, so it's even less than 4 years). It also didn't take him 8 years to win a championship; he won his first in his 7th season.
> 
> People didn't consider him a "loser" in '88 and '89. In fact, many people felt he was the best player in the game, and the vast majority had him as top 2 at the very least (along w/Magic).


many felt he wasn't a winner, and that you weren't going to win with a team built around a high scoring guard. the bulls regressed slightly in '89 from 50 wins to 47 wins. he still had many detractors from a team standpoint, even though he of course had many believers.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

kflo said:


> many felt he wasn't a winner, and that you weren't going to win with a team built around a high scoring guard. the bulls regressed slightly in '89 from 50 wins to 47 wins. he still had many detractors from a team standpoint, even though he of course had many believers.


Having doubts about whether a team could win around a dominant perimeter scorer is different from thinking he's a "loser." Even those who expressed doubts didn't have him lower than top 2-3 in the league by '89.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

Theonee said:


> Just remember it works both ways. Before you pinch someone, try to pinch yourself, if it hurts, then it will hurt others too.
> When you throw a handful of dirt in the air, half of the dirt will land on yourself.
> Jordan, and some of the Phoenix fans are as bad as some of the Kobe fans.
> By the way you are such a bandwagon fan, not a long time ago, you had your signature as Kobe, the next MVP and you were defending Kobe like crazy. Maybe you are trying to make people think Kobe fans are bad, by pretending to be Kobe fan that time.



Lets get something straight...

I support the game of mutha****ing basketball! Your a smart mutha****a thats right!
Not Kobe, not LEbron, and not Mark Madsen. 

When I give Kobe praise its because I feel he deserves it. When I say Kobe should be MVP, which was last year, he deserved it. I wasn't jumping on the bandwagon and I wasn't trying to influence people on how Kobe fans are. 
How can I? Kobe fans are irrational. 



Don't pigeonhole me into the Kobe hater or the Kobe dogger because my opinions go way deeper then you can probably comprehend.


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## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

for those who haven't seen this, i thought an "outside" opinion might spice up this stale sauce.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=sk-mailbag033007&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

much more in link (including some good non-kobe discussion for those of us who still care about this season).


The great Kobe debate
By Steve Kerr, Yahoo! Sports
March 30, 2007

Steve Kerr
Yahoo! Sports

Kobe, Kobe, Kobe. Love him or hate him, the guy generates excitement, both on and off the court.

That's why the overwhelming majority of your latest emails dealt with Kobe Bryant in one way or another.

I knew as soon as I wrote that Kobe might be "the most complete offensive player ever" that I'd be stirring up some controversy. Whether it was Jordan backers calling me crazy or Kobe fans thanking me for my comments, it seemed that everyone had something to say.

So here you go, NBA fans: It's your time to be heard.

ADVERTISEMENT
KOBE VS. M.J. ("L.A.'s comeback kids," March 26, 2007)

While you bring up a good question whether Kobe Bryant should be considered as the best offensive player in the history of the NBA, your statement that "plenty" of players rank ahead of him as the "best" player seems out of place. Many NBA coaches and scouts will attest he is the game's best player today and are even comparing him to Michael Jordan, arguably the best NBA player in history. So, based on those comparisons, it would not be proper to say there are "plenty" of players that rank ahead of him as the best of all time. Kobe has three championship rings, yes with Shaq as his partner when they were together. That is more than Wilt had in his career and same as Larry Bird of the Celtics dynasty. When his playing days are over, I believe Kobe will rank in the top three and definitely top five players of all time.

Syin Chao
Honolulu

Syin, I made a mistake when I said that there are "plenty" of players who are considered better players than Kobe overall. Perhaps the word I should have used is "several." Plenty of you picked up on this and let me have it in your emails, and you're right. The list of players who I consider better than Kobe is not a long one, but here you go: Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Oscar and Jerry West. Six names do not make "plenty." But it is more than several, isn't it? Does anyone out there have the word I'm looking for?

Kobe the best offensive player ever? You have to be kidding me! In the 80's and 90's, you could play defense. Nowadays they have switched all the rules due to the inability of the players to make a hoop. You can't even sneeze close to a player [without being] called for a foul. Now Kobe is thriving in this new system. I would like to see a Dennis Rodman or Scottie Pippen type of defense on Kobe and see if he would score 10 points. If Dennis Rodman or Scottie Pippen would be playing today, they would foul out in five minutes.

Jose
Winston-Salem, N.C.

Jose, you bring up a good point. The hand checking rule has made life much easier on perimeter players these days. But for the past 20 years or so, I've had a front-row seat watching the world's best players, and I'm telling you that Kobe would have been fantastic in any era. I'm sure Rodman and Pippen would have given Kobe a good challenge, but Byrant would have scored on those guys at will, too. He has no weaknesses, and he's incredibly competitive.

I would have to probably agree with you, Steve, on Kobe being the best complete offensive player of all time. And that's saying a whole lot, since we've had some great ones from Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, George Gervin, Kareem Adbul-Jabbar all the way down to Mr. Jordan himself. I haven't seen anyone this skilled in a long time. I think he's even more skilled than M.J. was in his prime. Michael was just a better leader on the floor in terms of getting everyone to step up their play. Let me know what you think on that comment.

Eric Robinson
Detroit

Eric, when I wrote that Kobe may be the most complete offensive player of all time, I was referring to his overall skill set. His dribbling and long-range shooting are better than M.J.'s were, and his creativity and athleticism are practically on par. But I agree with you about the leadership comment. Michael figured out how to lift up the level of his teammates' play, and his defense and overall game management were better than Kobe's. And M.J. won six titles, none with a dominant big man to play next to. That's why ultimately there's no argument that Jordan was the better player.

Steve, how can you legitimately suggest that Kobe Bryant is the most skilled offensive player in the history of the game when you played with the greatest player of all time in Michael Jordan? I think you have forgotten how great Michael was, especially when the rules of the game allowing hand checking made it more difficult to score. Also, the league was more talented and defensive-minded during M.J.'s greatness. Finally, is it not clear to you that Kobe sets out to score and take over the game instead of letting the game come to him and his teammates? Kobe -- great player, yes. But I'm not impressed.

Glenn K.
Aurora, Ill.

Glenn, I feel the Chicago love coming through! Don't worry. I'm still an M.J. guy. I'd better be, because if it weren't for him I never would have had the career that I did. (Or the one that I have now, for that matter.) But the fact is, there are facets of Kobe's game that are better than Michael's – in particular, dribbling and perimeter shooting. Michael was more explosive, and he's by far the greatest player ever, but in baseball parlance, Kobe's "stuff" might be a little better.


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## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

If Kobe scores 48 points tonight, he will have averaged 40 PPG. That will be the 4th time in the last 40 years that a player has averaged 40 points for a calendar month.

All 4 times belong to Kobe. 

But by all means, keep the excuses and criticisms of his game coming. And he'll continue chopping away at records, legends, and myths.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

magic_bryant said:


> But by all means, keep the excuses and criticisms of his game coming. And he'll continue chopping away at records, legends, and myths.


No one ever denied that he's an all-time level, fantastic scorer.


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