# Tanking for 13'



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

To me this is the only way for the Raptors to turn their fortunes around and finally become a team with championship aspirations. I wouldn't say it's a must do but I really can't think of another route that would give us a greater chance of success than go all out tank for next year.

As we are currently constructed I believe we are still capable of winning 30 games. We might even win more considering there are other teams such as the Sixers/Celtics that have already committed to tanking. In my opinion if we don't end up with a top 5 pick next year we may be looking at another fruitless rebuild where we lack a main superstar to build around. I disagree with the notion that stars dislike playing in Toronto but until one actually comes up here it's hard to argue otherwise. We can't be like Houston or Miami, our superstar must come from drafts and the only way to get them is through losing.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Tanking is not the only way to rebuild a franchise. Ujiri proved that with Denver and I trust that he can prove it again in Toronto should that be the direction he chooses to go. 

As much as I would love to get involved in the upcoming draft, unless we unload Rudy Gay and Lowry, we're not in a position to tank. We would also have to move DeRozan due to the kid wanting to win, asking him to play for a loser for another couple of years is not fair in my opinion. 

I'd like to see a couple more moves out of Ujiri before I comment much further.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

he will not tank, he fully intends to try to get a trade sending away Camby, Klieza @ Q-Rich for likely a back up C and vet back up SG


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

Getting Wiggins would make you guys pretty damn good


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

if we were gonna tank we would of traded Rudy by now now to Mo Town


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Junkyard Dog13 said:


> if we were gonna tank we would of traded Rudy by now now to Mo Town


Rudy Gay has more value than what they offered. 

If Ujiri tanks, he is not putting all of his hope on the Raptors pick alone in next years draft.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Oklahoma City won 30 games when they drafted Durant, btw. They were slotted to pick 5th. Shit happens.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

For the first time ever you guys are gonna have a legitamate top 5 player that actually wants to play in Canada (Wiggins) I would tank


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

If we tank we get Wiggins? 

I'd take that deal. Unfortunately that isn't how it works.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

Porn Player said:


> If we tank we get Wiggins?
> 
> I'd take that deal. Unfortunately that isn't how it works.


or Jabari Parker


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

LeGoat06 said:


> or Jabari Parker


I would take either in a heartbeart, we just can't expect to get either one unless we move Rudy, Lowry and DeRozan and go all in. Even then, we would need to try and acquire another pick.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Porn Player said:


> Tanking is not the only way to rebuild a franchise. Ujiri proved that with Denver and I trust that he can prove it again in Toronto should that be the direction he chooses to go.
> 
> As much as I would love to get involved in the upcoming draft, unless we unload Rudy Gay and Lowry, we're not in a position to tank. We would also have to move DeRozan due to the kid wanting to win, asking him to play for a loser for another couple of years is not fair in my opinion.
> 
> I'd like to see a couple more moves out of Ujiri before I comment much further.


It's definitely not the only way but it's the most likely way for us to win. That Denver team ran into a lot of luck(as well as good draft scouting) to get guys like Ty Lawson and Kenneth Faried. Iguodala was also a crucial part of last year's team and Denver kind of lucked out on getting him (The Howard-Bynum saga). It's possible for the Raptors to run into some similar scenarios but it's hard to expect something like that to happen again especially to the same GM. Also we shouldn't forget that some of the winning pieces that Denver has came from the Melo trade. Melo was someone that they got through losing.

Next year's draft has at least 3 franchise caliber players(Wiggins/Jabari Parker/Julius Randle). If a team ever wants to tank this would be the year for them to do it and the current Raptors team are a couple moves away from doing it. Move Gay and Lowry and that should be a 20-25 win team. Those 2 guys are quite movable so as long as MU decides to tank there shouldn't be a problem.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Pretty clear Ujiri is going to ride out this core until December or the trade deadline. Seems to be happy shooting for the last 3 playoff spots. 35 wins looks like the minimum for this club.

BOS seems destined for the lotto and PHI is the hard core tanking team.

ATL, WAS, CLE, MIL, and DET will all be battling with TOR for the last 3 spots. 3 will make it, 3 will be in the lotto. One might get lucky and land a top 3 pick.

It would not take much for the Raps to tank and let all those teams pass them by. Maybe BOS too. A top 5 or 6 pick going into the lotto should be the goal. Hope to get lucky and move up.

Getting a young stud on a rookie deal to pair with JVal is definitely the way to go to build a team that can be top 4 seed for many years.

Just sit guys out with any minor injury they would normally play through. Tell the trainers to 'take no chances' with guys health.


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## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

Play out the season (probably win the race for 9th) and then send everyone except JV for Wiggins. I'm ****ing sick of tanking.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

Why tank? personally I think the better plan is to go for as many wins possible and build towards being a respectable team. Let Wiggins and Parker cut there teeth with the lotto teams that draft them then we can make a move on them when there more developed and become FA in 4 years im just tired of tanking its hard being a Toronto sports fan Leafs choke in epic fashion, Blue Jays was the talk of the town all winter had buzz around them I haven't seen since I was a child......then the season started, TFC a joke Raps all we got left they got a shot at the 7-8 seed with the current roster


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Tanking is stupid at this point. You'd piss off every player on the team who actually wants to be there, and the chances of actually winning the lottery are far too slim.

Their best bet is to just keep the relationship with Wiggins open until he hits free agency.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

That is even more wishful thinking than the lottery. No player walks away from their first big extension after their rookie deal. He will be an UFA and will sign a huge deal. Plus if Wiggins is as good as advertised the team that drafts him should be able to build a winnner around him during those first 7 years.

But this draft is not 1 player deep. It is thought to be the best draft in many years. Raps just need a top 5 or 6 pick going into the lotto and hope to get lucky and move into the top 3.

Raps are going to waste these cheap early years of Val only to have to tank later which will make the rebuild harder. Bite the bullet now and bring in that stud wing to grow alongside Val for the next 5+ years.

Right now this team is heading for a 7-10 place finish in the East. Capped out and will likely have to overpay Gay and Lowry this summer if we make the playoffs. Only real upside is from Val.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

R-Star said:


> Tanking is stupid at this point. You'd piss off every player on the team who actually wants to be there, and the chances of actually winning the lottery are far too slim.
> 
> Their best bet is to just keep the relationship with Wiggins open until he hits free agency.


I used to believe tanking was the only way to turn yourself into a championship contender, but more recently I am thinking it does more harm than good especially when you look at actual numbers.








​ 
R-Star: FWIW, the Indiana Pacers have had ONE top five pick and THREE top ten picks over the last 26 years. They have done OK. Legitimate championship contender at the beginning of the 2000's, the middle of the 2000's, and they are now once again.

If Oklahoma City (who, like I said earlier, moved up from the #5 slot to land Durant) is tanking gone right and Charlotte is tanking gone wrong, then the Washington Wizards are probably your most realistic example of tanking.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

ATLien said:


> I used to believe tanking was the only way to turn yourself into a championship contender, but more recently I am thinking it does more harm than good especially when you look at actual numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice post. 

The thing with a team like the Pacers is, you don't have to worry about players bolting when they hit free agency. Sure there's always a lingering fear when a Hibbert or George is up for a new contract, but its nothing like a team like Washington, NO, Charlotte, etc where you just assume there's a 75% chance their quality players will leave or get grossly overpaid.

If I'm a free agent in Indiana I see my team working toward something, there's a culture there and I want to be a part of it.
If I'm a free agent in Charlotte I'm probably tired of thinking "This year will finally be the year our lotto pick pans out into a superstar..... who takes my starting roster spot."


There's many ways to building a team, and to me tanking would be at the bottom of the list.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

lucky777s said:


> That is even more wishful thinking than the lottery. No player walks away from their first big extension after their rookie deal. He will be an UFA and will sign a huge deal. Plus if Wiggins is as good as advertised the team that drafts him should be able to build a winnner around him during those first 7 years.
> 
> But this draft is not 1 player deep. It is thought to be the best draft in many years. Raps just need a top 5 or 6 pick going into the lotto and hope to get lucky and move into the top 3.
> 
> ...


Not sure I agree at all. These days star players are leaving all the time. Lebron, Howard, Chris Paul. If Wiggins makes it clear he wants to play in Canada, he'll get there. As much as I hate it, players are pretty much able to dictate where they play at this point.

If I was Toronto my only worry would be a young kid like Wiggins thinking "Hey, its not cold here. **** the cold, I'm not going back."


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## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

It's just as cold in a lot of NBA cities........


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxdaddykb (Jun 17, 2012)

Highest tax rate of any nba city.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

AllRim said:


> It's just as cold in a lot of NBA cities........


I live in Canada. There a couple of similar temperature cities, but not many. Whoever wins the draft next year will probably have beautiful weather compared to Toronto.


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## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

The only reason players don't want to stay in Canada in order

1) Losing 
2) Taxes

Tons of players rant about how awesome Toronto is.


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## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

R-Star said:


> I live in Canada. There a couple of similar temperature cities, but not many. Whoever wins the draft next year will probably have beautiful weather compared to Toronto.


Live in Canada and you're a Pacers die hard, damn you


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

ATLien said:


> I used to believe tanking was the only way to turn yourself into a championship contender, but more recently I am thinking it does more harm than good especially when you look at actual numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Toronto's situation is different. The reason for tanking has a lot to do with our inability to sign big name free agents. You can't use a stat like this to conclude that a team building formula for LA would have similar success for Toronto. The fact is we can't get a superstar or even an allstar to sign in TO. People talk about Denver's success because of MU but they had Carmelo as a starting piece.

Moreover, signing Wiggins and tanking are 2 separate things. If we tank next year and end up with the 2nd pick, we can still sign Wiggins in 3 years. Just because we have a chance to get him later doesn't mean that we shouldn't do what's best for the team talent wise right now.


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## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

And how good has tanking done for us these last few years? The only good to come from it is JV.

Tanking doesn't automatically get you good players, it usually will get you role players. eg. Bargs/DD/Ross.

I have faith in our new front office that they will be able to sign good FA's in the upcoming seasons. Making the playoffs this year (even at the 8 seed) will change some views around the league.

And if we can resign Gay to a cheaper contract that may entice a big name to come to Toronto.

If JV has a great year, Gay signs a decent extention, Lowry plays well without the curse of Jose, DD plays like he did alongside Gay. We would really be one big name away from having a team that could compete for home court.

To start from scratch and trade away all our pieces now would drive me nuts. I can't deal with 9 new players at the start of every season again.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

AllRim said:


> And how good has tanking done for us these last few years? The only good to come from it is JV.
> 
> Tanking doesn't automatically get you good players, it usually will get you role players. eg. Bargs/DD/Ross.
> 
> ...


We haven't tanked. Since drafting Bargnani in 06' we've had 4 first round picks in 7 years, DeRozan(9), Ed Davis(13), Jonas(5), Ross(8). If you want to blame our current situation then it would make sense to blame it on us not tanking than tanking. We tried to get players through free agency and trades yet we can only sign role players (Hedo/Kleiza/Fields) and trade for career underachievers (Lowry/Gay). I don't mind Lowry but getting Rudy Gay is hardly a plus for our team. There is a reason why the Raptors are hoping Gay to opt out of his current contract, he isn't in our future plans.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Not sure I agree at all. These days star players are leaving all the time. Lebron, Howard, Chris Paul. If Wiggins makes it clear he wants to play in Canada, he'll get there. As much as I hate it, players are pretty much able to dictate where they play at this point.
> 
> If I was Toronto my only worry would be a young kid like Wiggins thinking "Hey, its not cold here. **** the cold, I'm not going back."


Not one of those players you mentioned left their team after their rookie deal. Not one. They all signed extensions with their original club.

Its not realistic to hope or plan for him forcing his way after 7+ years in the league. That is when he will be thinking championships and legacy.


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