# Final Four: Ohio State vs. Georgetown



## TM

vs.








*Sat., March 31*​


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## HKF

Hoyas will win, but man it will be a battle of future NBA finals centers in Hibbert and Oden.


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## BlueBaron

I like Ohio St in this one. Oden will have his hands full but I believe he will have a huge game.


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## Pain5155

how can u not go with ohio state on this one.


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## MusaSK

Pain5155 said:


> how can u not go with ohio state on this one.


Two words: Jeff Green.


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## Nimreitz

All about Ohio State. I can't see Hibbert doing anything against Oden and don't have enough confidence in Green and Ewing's midrange games.


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## HKF

Ohio State was destroyed by Georgetown in the NCAA tournament just a year ago. I think people are forgetting that. John Thompson III is a better basketball coach than Thad Matta. Please don't overlook this.


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## Nimreitz

Yeah, but there's a slight difference between Terrence Dials and Greg Oden.


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## WhoDaBest23

I think it's going to depend on who doesn't get into foul trouble, Oden or Hibbert. This will certainly have an effect on the game. However, Georgetown has the size to somewhat offset this unlike Ohio St. If Georgetown can contain the Buckeyes' guards and get some production themselves from their backcourt, they'll win this game. Containing Conley so he doesn't drive and dish is key for the Hoyas. The only guy that Ohio St. has to guard Green is probably Lighty. But then they have to worry about Summers and his scoring. I'm expecting both of them to step up huge. After watching them the past couple of games, I'm convinced. Georgetown in this one.


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## rainman

WhoDaBest23 said:


> I think it's going to depend on who doesn't get into foul trouble, Oden or Hibbert. This will certainly have an effect on the game. However, Georgetown has the size to somewhat offset this unlike Ohio St. If Georgetown can contain the Buckeyes' guards and get some production themselves from their backcourt, they'll win this game. Containing Conley so he doesn't drive and dish is key for the Hoyas. The only guy that Ohio St. has to guard Green is probably Lighty. But then they have to worry about Summers and his scoring. I'm expecting both of them to step up huge. After watching them the past couple of games, I'm convinced. Georgetown in this one.


They couldnt stop Lawson from penetrating and i think Conley is the better of those two. OSU should have all the 3pt looks they want, obviously Oden needs to stay out of foul trouble. People pretty much know what to expect from Hibbert, we'll find out a lot about Greg Oden.


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## Nimreitz

WhoDaBest23 said:


> I think it's going to depend on who doesn't get into foul trouble, Oden or Hibbert. This will certainly have an effect on the game. However, Georgetown has the size to somewhat offset this unlike Ohio St. If Georgetown can contain the Buckeyes' guards and get some production themselves from their backcourt, they'll win this game. Containing Conley so he doesn't drive and dish is key for the Hoyas. The only guy that Ohio St. has to guard Green is probably Lighty. But then they have to worry about Summers and his scoring. I'm expecting both of them to step up huge. After watching them the past couple of games, I'm convinced. Georgetown in this one.


That's a joke, Ohio State minus Oden is better than Georgetown minus Hibbert. Conley is the best player on the court in that situation and his ability to drive and kick would be unguardable. Lewis, Butler, Cook, and Harris are all deadeye three point shooters and Othello Hunter is one of the best rebounders in college basketball. Certainly better than anyone on the floor for Gtown if Hibbert is out. OSU has way more options and they can play without Oden.

Now don't get me wrong, I do feel there is some chance for the Hoyas. At this level and this stage obviously anyone can win. However Georgetown is going to have to play much better to win than Ohio State will to win. If Georgetown limits the possessions (which they will), get Oden in foul trouble, and score efficiently, then they have a chance. But they probably have to hope for all of them AND play fantastic team defense to win the game.

But then again my feeling on the Tournament since the bracket was announced has been "Ohio State is just too good"


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## WhoDaBest23

I admit G-Town will have a lot of trouble guarding Conley and having him penetrate and kick out to their shooters. They can easily have a field day raining 3s on the Hoyas. But disregarding Oden-Hibbert, my thought is who on the Buckeyes is going to really match-up against G-Town's forwards? It might be just as tough as G-Town is going to have matching up with Ohio St.'s guards. UNC has some size and they weren't able to really stop G-Town's versatility inside. I'm not going to underrate the Buckeyes' forwards though, this is the Final Four and anything can happen. Like I said, if the Hoyas' backcourt can produce like they did today and SOMEHOW contain the Buckeyes' backcourt, they're going to have a good chance of winning this game. It's definitely not going to be easy.


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## HKF

Georgetown is the best team that Ohio State has played since January. Just remember that. Nimreitz said that Georgetown can't score, yet they just hung 97 on the Tar Heels. It's like people are thinking Ohio State doesn't even have to guard. Othello Hunter has barely done anything in this tournament, and Jamar Butler and Ivan Harris have played like utter crap as well. 

Georgetown is getting production from seven players consistently in Sapp, Wallace, Summers, Hibbert, Green and Ewing. You know what to expect from Georgetown's guys because they are consistent. Vanderbilt was a different kind of team because all they do is shoot 3's. The difference is, if Ohio State has to shoot 3's all game to win due to Oden being in foul trouble they will lose. If Hibbert is not in foul trouble, but Oden is, how the heck is Ohio State going to score in the paint. The answer, they won't.


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## kamego

Even though I know I should be picking OSU, I said Georgetown before the tourny and I can't switch after that UNC game today


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## WhoDaBest23

HKF said:


> Georgetown is the best team that Ohio State has played since January. Just remember that. Nimreitz said that Georgetown can't score, yet they just hung 97 on the Tar Heels. It's like people are thinking Ohio State doesn't even have to guard. Othello Hunter has barely done anything in this tournament, and Jamar Butler and Ivan Harris have played like utter crap as well.
> 
> Georgetown is getting production from seven players consistently in Sapp, Wallace, Summers, Hibbert, Green and Ewing. You know what to expect from Georgetown's guys because they are consistent. Vanderbilt was a different kind of team because all they do is shoot 3's. The difference is, if Ohio State has to shoot 3's all game to win due to Oden being in foul trouble they will lose. *If Hibbert is not in foul trouble, but Oden is, how the heck is Ohio State going to score in the paint. The answer, they won't.*


Ding ding ding.


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## Gtown07

who is covering Jeff Green? the people that are saying he's not as good as Conley haven't watched him play. And the one who said they don't trust his midrange game should just stop watching basketball. 

i'm not sure who's going to win but jeff green will be the most important player on the court.


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## ChristopherJ

HKF said:


> Ohio State was destroyed by Georgetown in the NCAA tournament just a year ago. I think people are forgetting that. John Thompson III is a better basketball coach than Thad Matta. Please don't overlook this.


That's terrible logic in deciding who will win. I think you're forgetting that Ohio State didn't have two pretty important players in Greg Oden and Mike Conley.


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## Nimreitz

Gtown07 said:


> who is covering Jeff Green? the people that are saying he's not as good as Conley haven't watched him play. And the one who said they don't trust his midrange game should just stop watching basketball.


That would be me and me. And I stand by both comments. I just love Conley, I think he's awesome, so don't take that as any disrespect to Green at all. Regarding the other thing, well I have every right to make stupid comments.


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## Gtown07

Nimreitz said:


> That would be me and me. And I stand by both comments. I just love Conley, I think he's awesome, so don't take that as any disrespect to Green at all. Regarding the other thing, well I have every right to make stupid comments.


I'm certainly not taking it as disrespect. It just means you haven't seen these teams play enough. I love Conley too. But he's no Jeff Green.


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## cv3bandwagon

When was the last time Oden was matched-up with an NBA caliber post player? I can only think back to their blow-out loss to Florida. I'm interested in seeing the hype man can actually dominate against a man (Hibbert), and not just 6'5-6'7 kids. Ohio State will not win if Oden loses the match-up with Hibbert.


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## T.Shock

cv3bandwagon said:


> When was the last time Oden was matched-up with an NBA caliber post player? I can only think back to their blow-out loss to Florida. I'm interested in seeing the hype man can actually dominate against a man (Hibbert), and not just 6'5-6'7 kids. Ohio State will not win if Oden loses the match-up with Hibbert.


This is a good point. Ohio St. lost to both Florida and UNC who had pro-level big men. I'll admit Oden was at 100 percent at that point, but it still merits discussion. 

In addition, one of the more overlooked aspects of this whole game is the fact that Ohio State hasn't faced anybody who plays a lick of D in the tournament so far. I mean, CCSU might, but it didn't really matter. Tennessee, Memphis, Xavier are all teams that like to score as much as possible and play little to no team defense. Georgetown OTOH is probably the best defensive team in the country. The key will be the play of Lewis/Butler/Cook. Oden will get his, so will Conley. If G-Town can limit the 3-pt shooters of Ohio St., they'll win. If the Hoya defense becomes pre-occupied with stopping the two freshmen, Lewis and Butler will go off and OSU will win.


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## TheTruth34

Pain5155 said:


> how can u not go with ohio state on this one.


conley is a ball hog, and yea he'll take some points away from oden, because when their down 8 with 2 minutes left in the game. hes gonna drive and get swatted by hibbert,travel, and loose control. its all about maturiy level in the final four, you saw it last year with George Mason, they had never been there, they gave it their all, but just didnt have what it takes. ( and no im not comparing gm to osu).

PLAIN and simple. Florida has too much talent for UCLA.
Georgetown has too much knowledge for Ohio State.

National Championship:

Florida 74 Georgetown 66


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## TheTruth34

TheTruth34 said:


> conley is a ball hog, and yea he'll take some points away from oden, because when their down 8 with 2 minutes left in the game. hes gonna drive and get swatted by hibbert,travel, and loose control. its all about maturiy level in the final four, you saw it last year with George Mason, they had never been there, they gave it their all, but just didnt have what it takes. ( and no im not comparing gm to osu).
> 
> PLAIN and simple. Florida has too much talent for UCLA.
> Georgetown has too much knowledge for Ohio State.
> 
> National Championship:
> 
> Florida 74 Georgetown 66



did i mention conley is a second coming of steve francis?


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## SheriffKilla

seriosly
you guys are hating on the Hoyas

they can't SCORE???? they shoot like 50 percent from the field... and have some of the better 3pt shooters in the country...

Conley the best player on the court???ummm... Jeff Green...??

i'm not even sayin Green is better but how you gonna say somethin like that...

I picked GT but it will be a close game and ya, i agree if Oden or Hibbert get in foul trouble the other team will have a big advantage


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## kansasalumn

Georgetown


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## cadarn

The officials will give ohio state another win.


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## rebelsun

I don't know if I've looked forward to a college big-man matchup more than this. When was the last time two 7'0+, 270lb+ lotto picks went at it in the Final Four? 

Hibbert's stock is high with his tourney play so far and could explode if he somehow manages to dominate Oden.


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## Nimreitz

TheTruth34 said:


> conley is a ball hog, and yea he'll take some points away from oden, because when their down 8 with 2 minutes left in the game. hes gonna drive and get swatted by hibbert,travel, and loose control. its all about maturiy level in the final four, you saw it last year with George Mason, they had never been there, they gave it their all, but just didnt have what it takes. ( and no im not comparing gm to osu).
> 
> PLAIN and simple. Florida has too much talent for UCLA.
> Georgetown has too much knowledge for Ohio State.
> 
> National Championship:
> 
> Florida 74 Georgetown 66


What a horrible take! Georgetown has not been anywhere near this far either. And if you are talking about age, Ohio State starts two 5 year guys and a junior. George Mason was pretty old too, so I don't really understand what you're saying at all. They just have too much knowledge? How vague. I don't buy that at all and Conley just about the least reckless player I have ever seen, he's not going to be driving at Hibbert out of control, he'll drive, draw Hibbert to him, and dish it to Oden for the dunk.

I'm really surprised how many people are saying that Conley is a shoot first point guard.


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## MonStrSquad*JK RJ VC*

I'm really just looking forward to the match up down low on the block. You just don't see true centers going at it anymore like you used to in College. I know one things for sure after the final buzzer. Either Oden or Hibbert stock is going to rise or fall after the game. Depending on their individual numbers head to head and how their respective teams lose because of it.


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## HKF

Oden is still the #1 pick regardless of what happens in this ball game and rightfully so. I'd say Hibbert's stock is a top 5 pick in '08, but what really matters is if the refs call ticky tack garbage fouls on them, which is what will probably happen.

It's not a coincidence that each of these big men have been in foul trouble the entire tournament. NCAA refs don't know how to officiate true big man and haven't known how for years.


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## Dee-Zy

Hibbert is solid in the post on both sides of the floor, especially defensively. Oden has no offense, it will be very hard for him to match up against a 7-2 270+lbs good low post defender. If Hibbert gets position everytime down low on D, Oden will be exposed.

This will be an awsome game


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## Knick Killer

Forget Oden and Hibbert i think it could come down to Green and Ewing Jr. vs. Conley and Lewis.
I think everyone will be soo busy worrying about the two big guys that those 4 will have to step up.

Ohio State wins by 5.


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## SheriffKilla

Ewing Jr???

he is like a bench player

J.Wallace/Sapp or Summers are the more likely candidates if not J.Green or Hibbert


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## Gtown07

fjkdsi- Ewing Jr. is not a bench player. He's the 6th man. Before the last weekend he was actually getting Summers' crunch time minutes. I'm not saying that the guy above you is right but don't belittle Ewing's contributions just bc he's not his father. He will start next year if/when Jeff declares.


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## SheriffKilla

im not belittling his contribution i actually like his game a lot and i think he fits great for the Hoyas but i just don't think I should big them up just because of his father either... basically he is a very solid guy to have of the bench, but Sapp, Wallace and Summers are much more important to this team and if you take out Hibbert and Green its one of those 3 that comes to mind...
Tyler Crawford, Jeremiah Rives and Vernon Macklin are all talented too, and I think Ewing is a better player than them but Hoyas have a lot of options I agree


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## Nimreitz

Dee-Zy said:


> Hibbert is solid in the post on both sides of the floor, especially defensively. Oden has no offense, it will be very hard for him to match up against a 7-2 270+lbs good low post defender. If Hibbert gets position everytime down low on D, Oden will be exposed.
> 
> This will be an awsome game


Hahaha, what bull. Is that why Oden gets 3 more points per game? Because he's weak on offense when Hibbert is "solid"? Take a look around and don't just trust everything you hear. Oden 3 more points, 3 more rebounds, 1 more block per game. Same amount of fouls per game.


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## Gtown07

Nimreitz said:


> Hahaha, what bull. Is that why Oden gets 3 more points per game? Because he's weak on offense when Hibbert is "solid"? Take a look around and don't just trust everything you hear. Oden 3 more points, 3 more rebounds, 1 more block per game. Same amount of fouls per game.




Georgetown plays the 3rd slowest offense (and the MOST efficient according to Ken Pomeroy) in the entire country. So therefore Hibbert gets about half the opportunities that oden gets however his fg% is much higher and he scores almost just as much. Oden in his offense actually got more fg attempts than Hibbert got this season and Oden sat out half the season. What's more is that ken pom has Hibbert rated as the 4th most efficient offensive player in the country (compared to Oden's 162 rating). I promise you Hibbert will get his touches this game. Oden has not came up big against other big men yet. I'm not saying Hibbert will dominate but he's def. a better offensive player than Greg Oden. If you watched some games you'd know Hibbert's post moves are light years ahead of Oden's.


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## HKF

You can't compare the offensive ability that Hibbert and Oden have because they play different styles and with different players. Georgetown is a five man offense that utilizes everyone. Ohio State is a three point happy offense that forces Oden to grab offensive rebounds if he wants points.

Hibbert would do well in the pros as an offensive featured big man. As would Oden. No need to tear down one to build up another. However, Ohio State has selfish backcourt players and that fact cannot be denied.


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## -33-

A few things I'd like to say:

1. After reading this thread, I'm still waiting for how OSU will matchup with Green. The answer is - they can't. Oden and Hibbert will battle. Conley and Wallace will battle. But OSU doesn't have the matchup with Green. Advantage: Georgetown.

2. I think the key that is getting overlooked (I only saw one person mention this) is that Ohio St. is NOT a good 1/2 court team. They are much, much more effecient in an uptempo game (usually when Oden is in foul trouble). Like somebody mentioned, Georgetown runs a very slow, Princeton/Wizards style offense. If they control tempo, they are going to have a great chance to win. I think both teams will use alot of 2-3 zone to neutralize the inside, but if either team's guards get hot (which both can), the advantage will be to the hot team, cuz shooting the other team out of the zone will only open it up for their bigs inside. If both teams look to zones again like they did last game, just another way the tempo is playing towards Georgetown's favor.

I live in Ohio, I've seen alot of OSU all year. I played against both Jamar Butler and Ron Lewis, and I sort of know Ewing Jr. I've got Georgetown winning it all in my pool. So yes, I'm somewhat biased, but these are just some keys I've thought of!


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## TM

There are more players on that team than Conley and Oden. Who matches up with Cook? Lighty? Lewis?


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## Gtown07

HKF said:


> You can't compare the offensive ability that Hibbert and Oden have because they play different styles and with different players. Georgetown is a five man offense that utilizes everyone. Ohio State is a three point happy offense that forces Oden to grab offensive rebounds if he wants points.
> 
> Hibbert would do well in the pros as an offensive featured big man. As would Oden. No need to tear down one to build up another. However, Ohio State has selfish backcourt players and that fact cannot be denied.



Didn't mean to tear down Oden. I just think Hibbert is more developed offensively. 

I love Oden and I think he should go #1.


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## HKF

Gtown07 said:


> Didn't mean to tear down Oden. I just think Hibbert is more developed offensively.
> 
> I love Oden and I think he should go #1.


I was speaking about the post above yours. I just never quoted anyone.


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## Nimreitz

TM said:


> There are more players on that team than Conley and Oden. Who matches up with Cook? Lighty? Lewis?


I don't think Cook or Lighty will be offensive factors. It would really surprise me to see either at 12+ points. Not that it can't happen, it certainly can, but I don't think it will.



> I was speaking about the post above yours. I just never quoted anyone.


I can see how I might have come off as criticizing Hibbert, but I was not. I was trying to point out that it is ridiculous to call Oden awful on the offensive end and Hibbert solid when they compare well to each other.

OSU has 6 more posessions per game. However Oden plays only 58% of his team's minutes compared to Hibbert's 65%. They take a comparable number of their team's shots on the offensive end. They are basically a push offensively.


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## HKF

Nimreitz said:


> I don't think Cook or Lighty will be offensive factors. It would really surprise me to see either at 12+ points. Not that it can't happen, it certainly can, but I don't think it will.
> 
> 
> 
> I can see how I might have come off as criticizing Hibbert, but I was not. I was trying to point out that it is ridiculous to call Oden awful on the offensive end and Hibbert solid when they compare well to each other.
> 
> OSU has 6 more posessions per game. However Oden plays only 58% of his team's minutes compared to Hibbert's 65%. They take a comparable number of their team's shots on the offensive end. They are basically a push offensively.


I was agreeing with you, however, I was also disagreeing, because the offenses are not geared around either man. Hibbert has to share the load with all the players on the court, and Ohio State chucks a million 3's.


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## rocketeer

ohio state can't matchup with georgetown's forwards, but georgetown can't really matchup with ohio state's guards either(though georgetown probably has a larger advantage there. however i think oden's advantage over hibbert equals that out).

i think this game comes down to who does a better job staying out of foul trouble between oden and hibbert and if they are able to play relatively equal minutes it's going to be who plays better out of harris, hunter, and lighty or sapp, wallace, and rivers.


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## kamego

I think you guys are getting pretty deep into this one. All I will say is, how often does a team lead by freshman usually win these types of games? For every SU w/Melo there is a Fab Five making the young mistakes. If Oden doesn't come out with energy and stay out of foul trouble, OSU loses pure and simple. Lets not make this about role players, this is all about star power. OSU wins if Oden blows up and loses if Hibbert gets him in foul trouble and causes him to do nothing all game.

If UofM can almost beat Ohio State, I don't buy the arguement that they are too good to lose this game.


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## T.Shock

kamego said:


> I think you guys are getting pretty deep into this one. All I will say is, how often does a team lead by freshman usually win these types of games? For every SU w/Melo there is a Fab Five making the young mistakes. If Oden doesn't come out with energy and stay out of foul trouble, OSU loses pure and simple. Lets not make this about role players, this is all about star power. OSU wins if Oden blows up and loses if Hibbert gets him in foul trouble and causes him to do nothing all game.
> 
> If UofM can almost beat Ohio State, I don't buy the arguement that they are too good to lose this game.


Yea and the reason Tommy Amaker got fired was because his teams didn't play defense, took horrible shots, turned the ball over x + 10 times per game, and generally made terrible decisions altogether. Georgetown does all those things infinitely better than Michigan, has more talent, and a big man Oden can't simply outmuscle or outheight(not a word) in the post.


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## HKF

It is obvious that both big men will be in foul trouble, because that's how NCAA officiating is.


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## rainman

HKF said:


> It is obvious that both big men will be in foul trouble, because that's how NCAA officiating is.


It is a shame and it's getting worse, maybe they'll let the small stuff go, actually Hibbert got away with a lot against UNC he should of chopped out midway thru the second half.


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## HKF

rainman said:


> It is a shame and it's getting worse, maybe they'll let the small stuff go, actually Hibbert got away with a lot against UNC he should of chopped out midway thru the second half.


Not necessarily. They called cheap fouls on him in the first half and stopped doing it in the 2nd half. The officiating is horrible. Every 7'0 big man seems to be suffering from the same problem. It's the officials.


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## Jonathan Watters

Ohio State should win this, but Georgetown has one heck of a system. They adjust as well as any team in the country, can take advantae of just about anything a defense can throw at them. Ohio State is definitely more likely to lay the egg. You know G'Town is going to be there in the end. 

But as to the person who said that Memphis didn't play team defense this year...time to watch some Memphis.


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## HKF

Georgetown is the best defensive team in the country FG% wise. 38.3%.


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## BallStateCards

Georgetown is playing at Ball State next year...It'd be really cool if they were defending champs at the time...


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## Dre

Whoever is expecting a big post matchup will be dissapointed.


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## crazyfan

Ohio State will win Georgetown. gut feeling


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## TM

That didn't take long... 2 fouls in less than 3 minutes for Oden.


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## HKF

College refs are pieces of ****. These are not fouls on the pro level.

Please do not mask curses.

- *Premier*


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## Like A Breath

Final four and they can't swallow their whistles for a screen and a flop? Ugh...


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## Nimreitz

Losing Oden so early might not hurt OSU all that much. They play a much different style without him, and it can be quite successful. Remember that Carolina game early in the year?


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## rainman

TM said:


> That didn't take long... 2 fouls in less than 3 minutes for Oden.


I didnt see the first one but the second was garbage, why not just give the game to Georgetown and not waste our time here.


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## HKF

For some reason if you're seven feet tall and play in the paint, you're not allowed to make any moves. It's ridiculous.


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## Dre

Give the kids 6 fouls or let 'em play. There's no reason Oden should be out for the half like 5 minutes in, that's ****ing stupid.


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## TM

Nim, Oden goes out and Conley goes nuts. Of course, you'd love to have him in there, but they seem to just adjust any time he goes out. Has OSU played a lot of zine this year?


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## Nimreitz

6 fouls doesn't make sense. NBA games are 48 minutes long. 1 foul per 8 minutes is common to the NBA and NCAA.

Mike Conley is so freakin good. This is the game that puts him in the high lottery.

EDIT: Conley kind of looks like Nash out there minus the three point shooting. His team just gives him the ball and waits for him to set them up.


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## HKF

Georgetown can't be upset. A few of these layups spin in instead of out and they are right there. The Hibbert basket interference was a bad call. The ball was not in the cylinder.


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## TM

10 to 14. EVERYONE should be upset.


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## T.Shock

Lord has anybody taught the guards on Georgetown how to get a post player the ball. Oden goes out, Terwillger for god sakes is on Hibbert and Summers turns it over, Sapp reverses it, Rivers throws it out of bounds. You play the angles guys. If Terwillger is behind Hibbert you pass fake low and throw high. If Terwillger plays the high side, you take two dribbles towards the baseline, let Hibbert seal Terwillger off and put a nice little bounce pass leading Hibbert to the rim. If Terwillger is playing in front, you reverse the ball quickly, let Hibbert roll to the opposite side and feed him the ball up high. Jesus, Georgetown's guards are pissing me off.


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## HKF

Explain to me why the fouls are only on the big men (with the exception of Rivers)? Is the fix in?


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## HKF

And just as I say it, another foul on Hibbert. What the ****?


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## rainman

Nice job by Hibbert on the offensive end, where's Oden?(that's a rhetorical question).


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## rainman

HKF said:


> And just as I say it, another foul on Hibbert. What the ****?


Hibbert is too agressive on the defensive end, works i guess. In Oden's case i'm thinking he's borderline clumsy out there.


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## HKF

It doesn't make sense that the only two guys that are fouling are big men? Are we watching the same game?


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## GNG

Ted Valentine, man. How in the hell is he an official at the Final Four? This is a guy so whistle-happy, he actually T'd up Bob Knight _three times_ in one game. And now he's fouling out both parts of a premier big-man matchup in the first half.

Ted ****in' Valentine. ****..


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## TM

what exactly is a foul anymore?


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## Pioneer10

Conley is a star


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## rainman

Rawse said:


> Ted Valentine, man. How in the hell is he an official at the Final Four? This is a guy so whistle-happy, he actually T'd up Bob Knight _three times_. And now he's fouling out both parts of a premier big-man matchup in the first half.


He's always refereed with a chip on his shoulder, like HKF said they dont know how to referee bigmen.

OSU is the quicker team out there.


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## HKF

Jeff Green is too damn passive. He always plays like this. Sometimes you can't just let the game come to you. Especially when in this offense it rewards people who are moving without the ball.


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## Pioneer10

Good move by putting Green in the post. Looks like son's a better coach then dad


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## rainman

Is that Doc Rivers kid?


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## HKF

rainman said:


> Is that Doc Rivers kid?


Yes.


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## rainman

Pioneer10 said:


> Good move by putting Green in the post. Looks like son's a better coach then dad



That's not saying much.


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## HKF

I hate Ted Valentine.


----------



## HKF

Conley travelled and there sure was no call at the end.


----------



## rainman

HKF said:


> I hate Ted Valentine.


He is brutal. Understatement of the century, OSU lucky to be up 4 at the half.


----------



## GNG

What's the NCAA criteria on assigning officials for the various stages of the tournament? How is Ted Valentine reffing a Final Four game? Can anyone explain this to me?

He's one of the most hotheaded, vindictive refs I've ever even heard of. He makes Steve Javie look sweet and cuddly.


----------



## Geaux Tigers

Damn I got a friggen Tornado Warning taking up 50% of the screen making everything all crowded. This is lame...its two parishes over...:curse:


----------



## rainman

Next 20 minutes could determine whether Oden comes out this year, i honestly dont think he would leave stinking it up and then going pro, may be way off but i doubt it.


----------



## Pioneer10

rainman said:


> Next 20 minutes could determine whether Oden comes out this year, i honestly dont think he would leave stinking it up and then going pro, may be way off but i doubt it.


More bogus foul calls on him and you think he'll stay?

OSU doesn't get him the ball and college refs suck: not much incentive there


----------



## rainman

Pioneer10 said:


> More bogus foul calls on him and you think he'll stay?
> 
> OSU doesn't get him the ball and college refs suck: not much incentive there



Part of it is the calls part is he is slow to react.


----------



## Geaux Tigers

Inbounds passes to Oden are blowing hardcore...


----------



## HKF

This is why Ohio State is better without Oden, because they don't know how to pass the basketball.


----------



## rainman

HKF said:


> This is why Ohio State is better without Oden, because they don't know how to pass the basketball.


Not sure about the passing but the ball moves quicker when he isnt in there, never thought i'd hear this about a consensus #1 pick.


----------



## HKF

Great job by Hibbert, even though he picked up the foul. Damn we're already at a timeout. Is Ivan Harris not one of the biggest HS to college busts in recent memory? This guy was a top 20 player in Lebron's class and he's basically a role player as a senior. Jeez.


----------



## HKF

rainman said:


> Not sure about the passing but the ball moves quicker when he isnt in there, never thought i'd hear this about a consensus #1 pick.


I said they don't know how to pass the basketball. Ohio State has no clue how to feed the post. Not one clue.


----------



## TM

HKF said:


> Great job by Hibbert, even though he picked up the foul. Damn we're already at a timeout. Is Ivan Harris not one of the biggest HS to college busts in recent memory? This guy was a top 20 player in Lebron's class and he's basically a role player as a senior. Jeez.


Shavlick Randolph, Josh McRoberts, Greg Paulus....


----------



## rainman

HKF said:


> I said they don't know how to pass the basketball. Ohio State has no clue how to feed the post. Not one clue.


I heard you the first time, what are they passing to Oden has no lowpost game.


----------



## rainman

TM said:


> Shavlick Randolph, Josh McRoberts, Greg Paulus....


That's not right invoking Dook hate.


----------



## Pioneer10

HKF said:


> Great job by Hibbert, even though he picked up the foul. Damn we're already at a timeout. Is Ivan Harris not one of the biggest HS to college busts in recent memory? This guy was a top 20 player in Lebron's class and he's basically a role player as a senior. Jeez.


Why is green trying to post Oden: take him on the perimeter


----------



## Geaux Tigers

Well they just passed him the first decent entry pass of the game and he bobbled it out of bounds...


----------



## rainman

Pioneer10 said:


> Why is green trying to post Oden: take him on the perimeter


Exactly. Not sure he would follow him out there though.


----------



## Dre

What about that Beard dude for Wisconsin?

To be so disciplined, GT isn't playing too well right now. Finally a nice play as I type this.


----------



## HKF

See the problem with college is that you're whole game plan is revolved around getting people in foul trouble, not about running an offense.


----------



## HKF

Geaux Tigers said:


> Well they just passed him the first decent entry pass of the game and he bobbled it out of bounds...


He was being guarded by two men and the ball was at his feet. If you think that's a decent entry pass, let's not play basketball together.


----------



## Pioneer10

Christ, Green has to take Oden off the dribble when he has the chance


----------



## rainman

_Dre_ said:


> What about that Beard dude for Wisconsin?
> 
> To be so disciplined, GT isn't playing too well right now. Finally a nice play as I type this.


Brian Butch, Joey Beard...we get the theme.


----------



## Dre

Heh, I was talking about Butch. 

Oden's turnaround is ackward looking, but if it works for him, use it :whoknows:


----------



## Dre

Green doesn't feel that urgency to take over yet.


----------



## HKF

If you can't see the difference between an entry feed by Ewing Jr. and the Ohio State guards that's all I need to say again. A picture perfect bounce pass that arrives in the chest, that's soft and allows the big man to make his move.


----------



## 4BiddenKnight

Yeah, that catch, turnaround hook looks kinda awkward, but if it works, use it.

Nice move by Oden on Hibbert the 2nd time around though, he's got explosiveness in him too.

Disappointing 1st half from Oden as he got 2 quick (somewhat of an understatement here) fouls and got benched for that.


----------



## rainman

Geaux Tigers said:


> Well they just passed him the first decent entry pass of the game and he bobbled it out of bounds...



Oden has no range beyond 5ft but he can do some damage if they get him the ball down low which they seem to be looking to do.


----------



## rainman

HKF said:


> If you can't see the difference between an entry feed by Ewing Jr. and the Ohio State guards that's all I need to say again. A picture perfect bounce pass that arrives in the chest, that's soft and allows the big man to make his move.


I think we know the differance, stop acting like you're talking to 5th graders


----------



## Dre

Hibbert's drawing fouls, but he's being fronted well without Oden even being in there.


----------



## HKF

rainman said:


> I think we know the differance, stop acting like you're talking to 5th graders


I would if people would stop reiterating the same ignorance.


----------



## HKF

Jonathan Wallace is the most underrated player in college basketball.


----------



## el_Diablo

hibbert's 4th, worst call ever.


----------



## HKF

Summers just looks like a freshman in this ball game. Where is Jeff Green? You can't always wait till the last 4 minutes to step up.


----------



## TM

el_Diablo said:


> hibbert's 4th, worst call ever.




if you grab a guy by the arm when he's going for the rebound, that's a foul. one-eyed dick vitale could have called that.

HKF, I was just wondering the exact same thing about Green. Did he leave the arena?


----------



## TM

even better - grab the guy's entire body. yes, that was a foul


----------



## HKF

What a terrible call. The rebound wasn't going to either guy and they called it. Yikes.


----------



## el_Diablo

TM said:


> if you grab a guy by the arm when he's going for the rebound, that's a foul. one-eyed dick vitale could have called that.
> 
> HKF, I was just wondering the exact same thing about Green. Did he leave the arena?


if it would have made a difference, then maybe. osu would have got the ball anyway.


----------



## TM

oh please


----------



## Premier

Jeff Green needs to get more involved on offense early on, not just in the closing minutes.


----------



## Dre

I wonder if Sapp knows what he's doing.


----------



## TM

hahahaha.... ok, that was a bad call


----------



## HKF

Now that wasn't a charge? Hmmm... Just questionable officiating all the way around.


----------



## Geaux Tigers

Oden has some great athleticism for a guy his size. If he picks up some better coordination and offensive footwork to go along with his natural athleticism and defense (Which I think he will)...GAME OVER.


----------



## T.Shock

TM said:


> if you grab a guy by the arm when he's going for the rebound, that's a foul. one-eyed dick vitale could have called that.
> 
> HKF, I was just wondering the exact same thing about Green. Did he leave the arena?


Two things. They just showed a replay on Hibbert's fourth. That's a no-call. I'm sorry, but why even make that call especially when they were letting things go in the lane. 

And yes, Green left the arena. Got a hot dog, etc. 

And wow Oden basically launches into Green and they call a block. Georgetown is playing ugly, but the refs are definitely trying to give Ohio State the win. Ugh, this has been one of the most frustrating games to watch in recent memory.


----------



## TM

T.Shock said:


> Two things. They just showed a replay on Hibbert's fourth. That's a no-call. I'm sorry, but why even make that call especially when they were letting things go in the lane.
> 
> And yes, Green left the arena. Got a hot dog, etc.
> 
> And wow Oden basically launches into Green and they call a block. Georgetown is playing ugly, but the refs are definitely trying to give Ohio State the win. Ugh, this has been one of the most frustrating games to watch in recent memory.


They haven't let things go. They just haven't been consistent. If officials are letting things go, you can at least adjust. These goobers are just randomly blowing things. I feel bad for both teams.


----------



## HKF

Well at the 5 minute mark, Thompson has no choice but to put Hibbert back in the ball game, because Summers, Green and Ewing have given the team nothing. 

[sarcasm] Oh and Method Man is going to be on CSI. YES [/sarcasm]


----------



## Geaux Tigers

You have to expect these bad calls when you have a game with two premier banging big men. It's a shame but you had to see this coming at least.


----------



## HKF

Why does Green start playing now? I don't get it.


----------



## TM

But neither one has been in for half the game, GT


----------



## HKF

Green shows how you murder your draft stock.


----------



## T.Shock

I don't know if you can consider what Jeff Green is doing playing right now.


----------



## Dre

Alright...time to pick it up GT...


----------



## HKF

Wallace is just a smart player.


----------



## Dre

Green does this often, you wouldn't be that surprised if you watch a lot of GT games. He's passive to a fault. He could've been abusing Oden.


----------



## TM

This game going to OT? Could be trouble for Oden & his 4 fouls.


----------



## GNG

If the Grizzlies don't get Greg Oden, I will weep.


----------



## HKF

One of the worst officiating crews in the Final Four in recent memory. So inconsistent, so many missed calls, so-many botched calls.


----------



## T.Shock

By the way, Green isn't playing well, but when all is said and done I think he'll be a guy you run an offense through at the next level, not around but through. He is one hell of a passer.


----------



## GNG

I wonder if Jeff Green is a big procrastinator in his everyday life.


----------



## T.Shock

Rawse said:


> I wonder if Jeff Green is a big procrastinator in his everyday life.


I hope so.

Friend: Jeff, you pay your electric bill yet, you only got three hours left.
Jeff: I'll do it in a bit.


----------



## GNG

HKF said:


> One of the worst officiating crews in the Final Four in recent memory. So inconsistent, so many missed calls, so-many botched calls.


It's the Ted Valentine Show - coming this spring to CBS.


----------



## Dre

Rawse said:


> I wonder if Jeff Green is a big procrastinator in his everyday life.


Well he wasn't this good in his fresh. or soph. year :whoknows:


----------



## Kuskid

Oden looks lost guarding the pick and roll.


----------



## T.Shock

Haha. That is a terrible call. Packer makes me angry. I really dispise the announcers and referees of this game.


----------



## Dre

I couldn't trust running it through Green mainly..but he can be a good 2nd or 3rd ball facilitator in the right offense. He can be a Diaw IMO.


----------



## Geaux Tigers

Rawse said:


> It's the Ted Valentine Show - coming this spring to CBS.


They are about to have the CSI crew come out and draw a chalkline around this game...Valentine is the number 1 suspect...


----------



## T.Shock

Ugh. I hate Ohio State. That's game, set, match.


----------



## HKF

Why does no one stop the ball or foul Conley before he can get everyone down? That's what I would do.


----------



## rainman

Geaux Tigers said:


> Oden has some great athleticism for a guy his size. If he picks up some better coordination and offensive footwork to go along with his natural athleticism and defense (Which I think he will)...GAME OVER.


You're right, he needs work but a lot to work with there, he's taking over now.


----------



## HKF

Kickball kills the game. They need to foul now or they are finished. That charging call on Green was a killer. Basically was a 5 point swing just now.


----------



## rainman

Kuskid said:


> Oden looks lost guarding the pick and roll.


He better get used to it at the next level.


----------



## HKF

Georgetown has to foul.


----------



## Kuskid

At least put some ball pressure on them. I mean, letting a guy dribble out the shotclock in the final minute of a game when you're down? Come on.


----------



## HKF

Oden is a game changer. Always has been and he will be on the pro level. Even Ted Valentine's incompetence couldn't stop this man from shining.


----------



## HKF

Well if you were on the fence about whether or not Roy Hibbert could play or if he was a stiff, those questions have been answered. Next year he will be a first team All-American.


----------



## rainman

I was impressed with Hibbert, didnt think he would have any success against Oden and he had a good game, OSU guy just got clobbered under the basket, no call.


----------



## Geaux Tigers

Ya know...I ordered a pizza at the start of the second half and it still isnt here...bummer


----------



## Like A Breath

Is it me or did this game feel like a preseason exhibition? Anticlimactic after all the hype, to say the least.

Hibbert will be a quality big man, but he has to go to a team that is willing to pound the ball into him. He can be like Zydrunas Ilgauskas, probably with better post moves and poorer shooting. Oden has star written all over him, but his team acts like having on the floor is a nuisance.


----------



## rainman

HKF said:


> Well if you were on the fence about whether or not Roy Hibbert could play or if he was a stiff, those questions have been answered. Next year he will be a first team All-American.


Gotta give you that one(you're right once in awhile), seems though he might not come back after a good showing here.


----------



## HKF

Great win for the Buckeyes. Anything that gets Oden to leave college for the pros, is alright with me.


----------



## Dre

Not even close to yet :nonono:


----------



## HKF

Well no **** Billy Packer. Look at how the games are officiated today versus the games of yesteryear. Packer is such an old bastid.


----------



## Like A Breath

HKF said:


> Well no **** Billy Packer. Look at how the games are officiated today versus the games of yesteryear. Packer is such an old bastid.


Seriously, what the hell kind of statement was that?


----------



## Pioneer10

Does anyone who watches basketball like Billy Packer? Ughh

I think Bill Simmons pointed out he was doing the same crap in 1979. I guess he dissed Bird and Indiana State bofore the start of March Madness and then ended up calling most of there games.


----------



## HKF

Pioneer10 said:


> Does anyone who watches basketball like Billy Packer? Ughh
> 
> I think Bill Simmons pointed out he was doing the same crap in 1979. I guess he dissed Bird and Indiana State bofore the start of March Madness and then ended up calling most of there games.


Normally don't care about Packer, but the thing is, he seemed to go out of his way to disparage both players and his flunky Nash set him up. I can't stand either one of those mother****ers. Packer doesn't even watch NBA basketball, so why is pretending to know what these guys can do on the next level?


----------



## rainman

HKF said:


> Normally don't care about Packer, but the thing is, he seemed to go out of his way to disparage both players and his flunky Nash set him up. I can't stand either one of those mother****ers. Packer doesn't even watch NBA basketball, so why is pretending to know what these guys can do on the next level?



I think its Nance, you dont ever seem to be happy, ***** at Tarheel fans when you win, ***** at the announcers/refs when you lose, need to lighten up bro.


----------



## Dre

He was probably basing his opinion off how they played in college, in that sense he kind of has a point.


----------



## TM

No, no one likes him. He's mean, arrogant, and ignorant about most things.


----------



## rainman

TM said:


> No, no one likes him. He's mean, arrogant, and ignorant about most things.



You're on my crap list pal.


----------



## HKF

_Dre_ said:


> He was probably basing his opinion off how they played in college, in that sense he kind of has a point.


Probably not. When you mention those names, you think of their pro careers. So of course if you say Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, you're always going to think pro. If you think college, Oden's numbers are as good as the contemporary centers. 

Doesn't mean he is better than them, but he is comparable and to say they are nowhere close is just retarded.


----------



## jazzy1

well I gotta give OSU props I didn't think they'd beat my Hoyas. No one other than Hibbert and Wallace showed up. Green played waaay too passively. 

As for the big match-up Hibbert really helped his draft stock. He outplayed Oden for the most part he has more experience and it showed. he has more refined moves and is an understated athlete. 

Oden has the big upside but he needs alot of work. He has some bad fundamentals. He has far too low a trajectory on his shots and his footwork is real sloppy but if he improves as Hibbert has in 3 years he could be a monster because he has natural strength and athleticsm. He hasn't even started really lifting weights and adding real strength, he'll end up close to 300lbs when he fills out. 

Hibbert needs another year to work on fitness but he'll be a very good NBA center. Really soft touch showed alittle bit of a jumpshot. Not gonna be Oden good of course but he's a lottery pick when he does come out. 

Ref's are killing bigmen in college I saw only 1 legit foul call between the 8 called on Hibbert and Oden totally bogus. 

ref's are too self important in collee bball. I see why bigs leave and go pro early they aren't allowed to play. 

I'd agree with Billy Packers comments though, neither Hibbert nor Oden have Jabbar or Walton potential neither is an alltime great talent. 

In time Oden might become an nba allstar but he won't dominate games he's not even experienced playing tall guys yet he needs 3-4 more years before he becomes a NBA star. 

He should go 1st in the draft a no brainer.


----------



## Pain5155

just like i predicted, Ohio State demolished the hoyas.


----------



## HKF

Walton was not an all-time great pro. He was a very good pro, but injuries do not make him an all-time great. Oden better not get to 300 lbs. He would ruin the quickness and agility that he has. People who keep putting Walton in the class of Jabbar, Chamberlain, Russell and Olajuwon, I just don't get it. Great player? Yes. All-time great? No.


----------



## jazzy1

HKF said:


> Probably not. When you mention those names, you think of their pro careers. So of course if you say Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, you're always going to think pro. If you think college, Oden's numbers are as good as the contemporary centers.
> 
> Doesn't mean he is better than them, but he is comparable and to say they are nowhere close is just retarded.


Come on HKF what does your eyes tell you about Oden and Hibert to heck with stats. 

Neither guy has alltime talent. Oden is a good athlete not nearly as good as he was hyped to be. He's slow laterally he doesn't have the quick twitch athleticism he explodes after gathering himself but he doesn't just explode like Ewing and Hakeem did when they were in school. 

He's gonna be a good player in time but he's not hardly ready. 

He's not realy as talented as people think he's gonna be a star potentialy but he needs alot of work. Footwork, Hands, strength, lateral quickness, IQ, moves.


----------



## rainman

jazzy1 said:


> well I gotta give OSU props I didn't think they'd beat my Hoyas. No one other than Hibbert and Wallace showed up. Green played waaay too passively.
> 
> As for the big match-up Hibbert really helped his draft stock. He outplayed Oden for the most part he has more experience and it showed. he has more refined moves and is an understated athlete.
> 
> Oden has the big upside but he needs alot of work. He has some bad fundamentals. He has far too low a trajectory on his shots and his footwork is real sloppy but if he improves as Hibbert has in 3 years he could be a monster because he has natural strength and athleticsm. He hasn't even started really lifting weights and adding real strength, he'll end up close to 300lbs when he fills out.
> 
> Hibbert needs another year to work on fitness but he'll be a very good NBA center. Really soft touch showed alittle bit of a jumpshot. Not gonna be Oden good of course but he's a lottery pick when he does come out.
> 
> Ref's are killing bigmen in college I saw only 1 legit foul call between the 8 called on Hibbert and Oden totally bogus.
> 
> ref's are too self important in collee bball. I see why bigs leave and go pro early they aren't allowed to play.
> 
> I'd agree with Billy Packers comments though, neither Hibbert nor Oden have Jabbar or Walton potential neither is an alltime great talent.
> 
> In time Oden might become an nba allstar but he won't dominate games he's not even experienced playing tall guys yet he needs 3-4 more years before he becomes a NBA star.
> 
> He should go 1st in the draft a no brainer.


Quality post there.


----------



## rainman

HKF said:


> Walton was not an all-time great pro. He was a very good pro, but injuries do not make him an all-time great. Oden better not get to 300 lbs. He would ruin the quickness and agility that he has. People who keep putting Walton in the class of Jabbar, Chamberlain, Russell and Olajuwon, I just don't get it. Great player? Yes. All-time great? No.



Like i've said before from 73-77 Walton was the best player in the world, years of playng injured doesnt average into a good not great player, he was a great player.


----------



## jazzy1

HKF said:


> Walton was not an all-time great pro. He was a very good pro, but injuries do not make him an all-time great. Oden better not get to 300 lbs. He would ruin the quickness and agility that he has. People who keep putting Walton in the class of Jabbar, Chamberlain, Russell and Olajuwon, I just don't get it. Great player? Yes. All-time great? No.


You're crazy in his prime during the short Portland years he was every bit as good as those guys , he had it all scoring, passing, shot blocking, rebounding. He was a stud. 

he just didn't have the longevity . he made the Hall Of Fame because those experts know the real, all the guys he played against talk about how great he was. I saw him play in Portland I was old enough to remember he was great. 


he's gonna gain weigt and add size naturally he's 275 now when the training kicks in he's gonna gain weight but good weight. he won't lose the athleticism.


----------



## HKF

jazzy1 said:


> Come on HKF what does your eyes tell you about Oden and Hibert to heck with stats.
> 
> Neither guy has alltime talent. Oden is a good athlete not nearly as good as he was hyped to be. He's slow laterally he doesn't have the quick twitch athleticism he explodes after gathering himself but he doesn't just explode like Ewing and Hakeem did when they were in school.
> 
> He's gonna be a good player in time but he's not hardly ready.
> 
> He's not realy as talented as people think he's gonna be a star potentialy but he needs alot of work. Footwork, Hands, strength, lateral quickness, IQ, moves.


All of what you said could be said about Akeem, that is until Moses Malone schooled him in the fine arts of basketball. He's 19 years old and hasn't learned a damn thin about basketball. He's getting by on being bigger, more athletic and working harder than everyone else. You need to weigh the other factors. 

Since he was 13, he has been bigger than everyone else. That is a fact. Who needs post moves when you're bigger? Can you imagine Oden playing for the old Georgetown teams? Dude would be a dominator. It also bears repeating... if you're a big man in college over 7'0, if you're worth a damn, meaning not a jumpshooting creampuff (unless you have the talent of Dirk, KG), then you will not be allowed to use your post moves, because all guys have to do is flop and you have a foul. 

You watched this game. How could you draw conclusions from what Oden could do, from watching him in college? Remember Sean May in the Final Four two years ago. Big deal. Don't mean **** in the NBA.


----------



## HKF

4 years is not long enough. Four years is the average NBA career. If it wasn't affable likable Bill Walton, he wouldn't be in the HOF. No reason Bill should be in, but Adrian Dantley isn't.


----------



## GNG

Here's what I hope they write on Billy Packer's tombstone:

Here lies Billy Packer.
College basketball analyst.
Completely dismissed Greg Oden as a future great big man (though he did try to rub shoulders with him in the post-game interview).
Also gave Larry Bird zero credit in 1979.

That guy is Charley Rosen with a headset. How can anyone not hate him?


----------



## TM

rainman said:


> You're on my crap list pal.


:biggrin:


----------



## jazzy1

HKF said:


> All of what you said could be said about Akeem, that is until Moses Malone schooled him in the fine arts of basketball. He's 19 years old and hasn't learned a damn thin about basketball. He's getting by on being bigger, more athletic and working harder than everyone else. You need to weigh the other factors.
> 
> Since he was 13, he has been bigger than everyone else. That is a fact. Who needs post moves when you're bigger? Can you imagine Oden playing for the old Georgetown teams? Dude would be a dominator. It also bears repeating... if you're a big man in college over 7'0, if you're worth a damn, meaning not a jumpshooting creampuff (unless you have the talent of Dirk, KG), then you will not be allowed to use your post moves, because all guys have to do is flop and you have a foul.
> 
> You watched this game. How could you draw conclusions from what Oden could do, from watching him in college? Remember Sean May in the Final Four two years ago. Big deal. Don't mean **** in the NBA.


Hakeem was better as a 19 year old. Hakeem was a much better athlete than Oden is and had touch on his shot even then.Hakeem had quick feet from playing soccer. Oden doesn't have great lateral quickness. I'm not closing the book on Oden but come on Hakeem came from another country he didn't grow up playing hoops. Oden has been playing since he was a kid in this country and he's still very raw. You're correct Moses taught hakeem to dominate games on the pro level. 

I just don't see the requisite fire and overall talent level with Oden. 

He could become a star though.


----------



## jazzy1

HKF said:


> 4 years is not long enough. Four years is the average NBA career. If it wasn't affable likable Bill Walton, he wouldn't be in the HOF. No reason Bill should be in, but Adrian Dantley isn't.


I'm in total agreement AD should be in he grew up in my hood I love him. But he didn't single handily lead a team to a title and was never MVP. 

Walton was a stud. 

AD's supposed rep is keeping him out, more player patterned their games after him than anyone. AD was a total beast. 

He was unstoppable 1on1. 

But his rep for selfishness and being surly with the media and Isiah backstabbing him are keeping him out. Had he stayed with the badboys and won a title he'd be in no doubt. 

I think Walton's tv persona works against him most fans hates the things he says about bball on tv. walton's unselfishnessand the joy with which he played really propelled his rep as a player. 

And he was a tremedous sub off the bench for the 86 celtics. He helped them beat hakeem and Ralph in the Finals without him they don't win it. he played hakeem well even then as an aging player.


----------



## Nimreitz

jazzy1 said:


> Oden is a good athlete not nearly as good as he was hyped to be. He's slow laterally he doesn't have the quick twitch athleticism he explodes after gathering himself but he doesn't just explode like Ewing and Hakeem did when they were in school.


Is that a joke? You know that highlight they show on commercials every march where Ewing gets the pass, travels, gets called for traveling, but goes up for that huge dunk? Oden was over the box on the backboard at least, he got UP. That one where they called the block, that was insane. If you don't think he has incredible athleticism after that I just don't know what I can tell you. He's also usually the last guy to jump to get a rebound, but always the first to get it at its highest point. He's standing there 99% of the time on defense with his hands straight up in the air because he's terrified of getting called for garbage fouls, and he should be scared. Oden could block 10 shots a game if fouls were called fairly on him.

Hibbert's better than I thought he was too.


----------



## lw32

jazzy1 said:


> He has far too low a trajectory on his shots


Most of your analysis was decent, but I had to highlight this statement. I realize you weren't stating Oden needs a jumpshot, but one of your qualms was with his shot. I've seen it stated about Oden needing to develop a shot before too. I absolutely despise this train of thought. Firstly, Oden's hook shot has enough trajectory. You didn't see one of them hit front rim. Secondly, who the hell wants to turn Oden into a jump shooting center who will hit the 20 foot jumper? I can't understand this. If I wanted my center to play like Mehmet Okur I'd go out and draft a European big guy. Or I'd trade for Steve Novak. I'm not looking for Sam Perkins part 2. Oden is a banger, not a finese player. He needs to be posting every time. The reason you have a jump shooting big man is to create space for another banger, it drags the defender out of the paint by keeping them honest.

Shaq has absolutely no trajectory on his jumper, which is exactly why he doesn't venture out of the paint. Sometimes, believe it or not, less is more. Nowadays whenever a big guy develops a decent jumper he starts to float out and shy away from the banging. Which is why sometimes, and this is so in the case of Oden, I would rather see absolutely no jumper. Don't even go there big guy, stay down low.

Trajectory is not a problem with any of Oden's close range shots. A hook shot has trajectory, it also creates space. By having your body between your shooting arm for the hook shot and the defender you're creating space so the ball is further along it's path before the defender has a chance to block it. The ball will be higher in it's trajectory obviously. Oden isn't going to be blocked often on his hook, so trajectory is no problem.

Anybody asking Oden to change his shot has absolutely no clue. The ONLY place Oden needs a shot is at the FT line.

How many jump shooting centers are there in the L? Why does everyone believe a center needs a jumper nowadays?


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## 4BiddenKnight

Lachlanwood32 said:


> Most of your analysis was decent, but I had to highlight this statement. I realize you weren't stating Oden needs a jumpshot, but one of your qualms was with his shot. I've seen it stated about Oden needing to develop a shot before too. I absolutely despise this train of thought. Firstly, Oden's hook shot has enough trajectory. You didn't see one of them hit front rim. Secondly, who the hell wants to turn Oden into a jump shooting center who will hit the 20 foot jumper? I can't understand this. If I wanted my center to play like Mehmet Okur I'd go out and draft a European big guy. Or I'd trade for Steve Novak. I'm not looking for Sam Perkins part 2. Oden is a banger, not a finese player. He needs to be posting every time. The reason you have a jump shooting big man is to create space for another banger, it drags the defender out of the paint by keeping them honest.
> 
> Shaq has absolutely no trajectory on his jumper, which is exactly why he doesn't venture out of the paint. Sometimes, believe it or not, less is more. Nowadays whenever a big guy develops a decent jumper he starts to float out and shy away from the banging. Which is why sometimes, and this is so in the case of Oden, I would rather see absolutely no jumper. Don't even go there big guy, stay down low.
> 
> Trajectory is not a problem with any of Oden's close range shots. A hook shot has trajectory, it also creates space. By having your body between your shooting arm for the hook shot and the defender you're creating space so the ball is further along it's path before the defender has a chance to block it. The ball will be higher in it's trajectory obviously. Oden isn't going to be blocked often on his hook, so trajectory is no problem.
> 
> Anybody asking Oden to change his shot has absolutely no clue. The ONLY place Oden needs a shot is at the FT line.
> 
> How many jump shooting centers are there in the L? Why does everyone believe a center needs a jumper nowadays?


Adding on to this, what would Shaq be if he had a 20 ft jumper? 

I don't think he'll be the player he was or is now if he had that jumper.Shaq won't be even half as dominant if he had a 20 ft jumper. He'll be camping out and wasting his 320lb body for a soft jumpshot. Guys won't even be as scared of playing Shaq as they would if Shaq had a jumper and constantly utilizes it because they don't need to body on him everytime. And jumper's percentages aren't nearly as high as any of the post move's percentages.

Its best for centers to not have a jumper at all, especially for guys like Oden and Hibbert. They'll be better off settling by the post than having a jumper.


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## rainman

I think it isnt as easy to camp under the basket in the pros, 3 second calls, bigger people pushing you off the block...Shaq has made a living doing it but i dont think Oden is Shaq, i just dont see him having any mobility by putting on a bunch of weight. I think he's fine where he's at, work on the jumphook and his footwork, he'll be fine.


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## HKF

rainman said:


> I think it isnt as easy to camp under the basket in the pros, 3 second calls, bigger people pushing you off the block...Shaq has made a living doing it but i dont think Oden is Shaq, i just dont see him having any mobility by putting on a bunch of weight. I think he's fine where he's at, work on the jumphook and his footwork, he'll be fine.


The difference is, you post and re-post, the ball returns to you. College not so much.


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## rainman

HKF said:


> The difference is, you post and re-post, the ball returns to you. College not so much.


All i'm saying is they tend to push back in the NBA, if it were that easy to post up 5ft away from the basket a lot of big guys would be stars and they arent.


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## BallStateCards

Pain5155 said:


> just like i predicted, Ohio State demolished the hoyas.


Demolished? What game were you watching? I mean OSU won and all, but the winner was in question for the vast majority of the game...


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## apelman42

I think I've watched every tournament since '93 and not one has been as bad as this one. Refs and commercials are absolutely killing this tournament, and they need to do something about it fast.


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