# Should the Bulls trade Deng for the 1st or 3rd pick?



## ChiSox (Jun 9, 2004)

What do you think about trading Deng for the 1st or 3rd pick in the draft? We draft 2 of the three bigs (Aldridge, Bargnani or Thomas). We then target Peja or Harrington in FA. We could still get a veteran big to help the frontline. We now have a older team with lots of potential! The strength of FA is our strength, small forward. We get some more experience, length and tons of potential. I believe Raptors and the Bobcats need a player like Deng and may be interested in making a trade with us. I know there are a lot of trade threads but I am curious what everyone thinks? A Thomas/Bargnani or Aldridge/Thomas combination could be lethal!


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

damn...

not a bad idea

in fact, it's a SPLENDID one lol


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

ChiSox said:


> What do you think about trading Deng for the 1st or 3rd pick in the draft? We draft 2 of the three bigs (Aldridge, Bargnani or Thomas). We then target Peja or Harrington in FA. We could still get a veteran big to help the frontline. We now have a older team with lots of potential! The strength of FA is our strength, small forward. We get some more experience, length and tons of potential. I believe Raptors and the Bobcats need a player like Deng and may be interested in making a trade with us. I know there are a lot of trade threads but I am curious what everyone thinks? A Thomas/Bargnani or Aldridge/Thomas combination could be lethal!


Hmm. That's not a terrible idea. However, if we do that, we MUST get a big guard with one of those picks. Deng is the only guy on our team who can guard guys like Stephen Jackson, Kobe Bryant, Ricky Davis, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter etc. If you take him out of the mix we're really hurting for athleticism on the wings.

I'd be interested to see if Seattle would be open to something like Robert Swift and the #10 pick for Mike Sweetney and the #2. That would net us Swift, and probably Ronnie Brewer.

I also wonder if Philadelphia would be willing to part with Iguodala for the right price...


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## ballafromthenorth (May 27, 2003)

Granted it's not the same.. but having two top picks in a draft reminds me of Curry/Chandler.. I don't know if we'd really want to risk that.. I'm sure some would though.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Would Portland take Deng? We could then grab LMA/Bags/TT at 2, then Roy at 4. Get Al Harrington in FA with another Big.

We could try for Charlottes #3, but I don't know if they give that up with already having Wallace. I haven't seen this in any mock draft yet, but it would make sense for Charlotte to take Roy. Brezec/Emeka/Wallace/Roy/Felton


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

In answer to the subj.: No.


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

it's a risk. We must answer: how important was Deng on the team? Could we do what we did without him? 

Hinrich.Gordon.Peja.Aldridge.Chandler with NOCIONI and Thomas on the bench would be scary.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

PD said:


> it's a risk. We must answer: how important was Deng on the team? Could we do what we did without him?
> 
> Hinrich.Gordon.Peja.Aldridge.Chandler with NOCIONI and Thomas on the bench would be scary.


If we lose Deng, we've got to get a 3 with more athleticism than Peja. And I don't like the idea of trying to develop Aldridge and Thomas at the same time. I'm not sold on the idea in the first place, but if we did something like this, I think we'd have to spend one of the picks on Roy.


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

I'd rather trade Noc & 16th to Minny if Minny drafts Roy with the 6th, then sign Al Harrington.
Harrington and Noc are similiar players. Both provide the same flexibility at the 3/4. Both on the same team really doesn't make sense.

With the second take Thomas or Aldridge, thus

1- Hinrich, BG, Duhon, 
2- BG, Roy
3- Deng, Harrington
4- Harrington, Chandler, Thomas
5- Chandler, FA


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

If Luol Deng would have stayed in college I think he would have been the 1st pick in this years draft.

A couple of years NBA experience under his belt.... Nocioni and Deng showing that they can be effective on the floor at the same time for spells..... I wouldn't trade him.


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## OziBull (Nov 7, 2004)

I like the idea in some ways.
I wouldnt get Peja as our starting small forward, we need athleticism, we need a slasher and in my eyes i think deng slashes to the rim very well he just has to finish more better.

Pax wont get rid of Deng, he loves the kid, he works hard in the off season and is a great down to earth player.

Look only player i would trade for a pick would maybe be Duhon and Sweets.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

jbulls said:


> And I don't like the idea of trying to develop Aldridge and Thomas at the same time. I'm not sold on the idea in the first place, but if we did something like this, I think we'd have to spend one of the picks on Roy.


I agree, developing two young bigs again, no thanks. The real question for me is would I trade Deng for Roy? They kind of have the same mold, they are true position players that do a little bit of evrything but haven't proved to be dominant at any one thing. Roy maybe a better fit, and considering the FA names it may make sense to make that kind of swap, plus it may help financially down the road a bit. But......

I like having both Deng and Noce, knowing Lebron is about to become the real deal, we need some James stoppers. Peja will not do, and shooting isn't what we need. Adding LA, Roy, 16 and Harrington while only losing Deng doesn't sound so bad at all, a bit young but promising. It would make us completly solid from the 1-4 spots, take a center w/ 16, give Chandler some protien shakes, and call it an offseason.

Personally I'd prefer to trade the 16 and Du to move up and get Brewer, then sign Nene if 100%, or Wilcox (even though I've dogged him in the past, he can finish under the basket better than any other FA).


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## ChiSox (Jun 9, 2004)

Dornado said:


> If Luol Deng would have stayed in college I think he would have been the 1st pick in this years draft.
> 
> A couple of years NBA experience under his belt.... Nocioni and Deng showing that they can be effective on the floor at the same time for spells..... I wouldn't trade him.


I love Deng, I believe he will play in a few All-star games. I believe Deng is better than Peja and Harrington. I would only do the trade if I thought there were two bigs in the draft which were "special". I wouldn't worry about a big guard, they are easier to find than talented "special" bigs. Plus, the big guard probably is only going to play 15 - 20 minutes a game. 

We need a couple more TALENTED veterans on this team. The strength in FA is the small forward position. Every time I think about the off-season I wish we had a need for a small forward. I believe we could sign Harrington and maybe Peja. They both have said they would like to play in Chicago. Ben Wallace doesn't really fit our team. We have the 2nd pick, with three solid bigs but they POTENTIALLY are very good players. The only way I see us maximizing our off season is trading Noc or Deng. I don't want to trade them but it may improve our team the most and better set us up for the future.


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## ChiSox (Jun 9, 2004)

Hustle said:


> I agree, developing two young bigs again, no thanks. The real question for me is would I trade Deng for Roy? They kind of have the same mold, they are true position players that do a little bit of evrything but haven't proved to be dominant at any one thing. Roy maybe a better fit, and considering the FA names it may make sense to make that kind of swap, plus it may help financially down the road a bit. But......
> 
> I like having both Deng and Noce, knowing Lebron is about to become the real deal, we need some James stoppers. Peja will not do, and shooting isn't what we need. Adding LA, Roy, 16 and Harrington while only losing Deng doesn't sound so bad at all, a bit young but promising. It would make us completly solid from the 1-4 spots, take a center w/ 16, give Chandler some protien shakes, and call it an offseason.
> 
> Personally I'd prefer to trade the 16 and Du to move up and get Brewer, then sign Nene if 100%, or Wilcox (even though I've dogged him in the past, he can finish under the basket better than any other FA).


This would be different because we have money to get good veterans to play in front of the young bigs. ie J Prz and/or Nazi M. We still have Sweets, Chandler and we try to keep Songs. Just adding older more talented bigs will help our team. We would be better equiped to mentor the bigs. I only do the deal if Paxson feels the bigs are special.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

I think if you could get the #1 pick for Deng you take it. Bargnani at #1, and Thomas, Aldridge, or Gay at #2 would be pretty sweet.


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## mgolding (Jul 20, 2002)

Forwards not backwards. Our team is inexperienced enough. Im not sure that anyone in this draft will even be better than Deng. I think a few people here are getting draft fever which is where one looks at all the draft prospects and imagines that they all hit there highest possible ceilings. Aldridge = Bosh, Thomas = Amare, Bargnani = Dirk etc. This is a weak draft full of undeveloped prospects. The last time we traded into one of those and drafted two bigs it didnt turn out too pretty.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

mgolding said:


> The last time we traded into one of those and drafted two bigs it didnt turn out too pretty.


We'll see about that around this time next year when we see how well the 07' swap pays off, and we see what the #2 has in store for us. But I guess that doesn't change Chandler.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

mgolding said:


> Forwards not backwards. Our team is inexperienced enough. Im not sure that anyone in this draft will even be better than Deng. I think a few people here are getting draft fever which is where one looks at all the draft prospects and imagines that they all hit there highest possible ceilings. Aldridge = Bosh, Thomas = Amare, Bargnani = Dirk etc. This is a weak draft full of undeveloped prospects. The last time we traded into one of those and drafted two bigs it didnt turn out too pretty.


Yeah, after thinking about it a little more I don't think we should part with Deng for a high pick. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he turned out to be a small forward version of Brand.

I think my ideal off-season would be drafting Brewer and Thomas, dealing Duhon for Mihm, and signing Nene or Wilcox.

If we can't get Brewer I'd be in favor of drafting Hilton Thomas, and going after John Salmons in free agency.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

whoops


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I rather get rid of Chandler if we can. It be a miracle if we can pull of a Brand-for-Chandler trade where we get a player of Brand's caliber back.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

jbulls said:


> I'd be interested to see if Seattle would be open to something like Robert Swift and the #10 pick for Mike Sweetney and the #2. That would net us Swift, and probably Ronnie Brewer.


WTF

LMAO


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## taurus515th (Oct 13, 2005)

no i would not do this one. in my opinion deng is better than everyone in this draft. if deng was in this years draft he would be number #1 so wut is the purpose. just because they are number one in this draft doesnt mean that they are better than Deng. i really do not think we need 2 rookies on our team either. just because experts compare them or say they will be this great or will get u an instant championship doesnt mean nothing if u look at the 98-05 draft not one of the top 5 players have gotten a ring as matter of fact only on one has even made it to the semi-finals except for k-mart and that was only once, if im not mistakin. i say take shelden williams in this draft and call it a day. i bet some of yall who want the 2 picks instead of deng were one of the main ones saying that this is a very weak draft so why trade Deng who was in a good draft and number drafted 7 for 2 people in a weak draft that would be picked 18 and under in a good draft. i want someone from the draft that will make an impact on our team when he gets here. i do not want someone that will take 3 or so years to develop because they came out of college too early. our team is almost their and if we get people that will need to develop we wont get their till those probably 4 or so years when they develop. i would love to trade our 2nd pick and 16th pick for torontos 1st pick and Charlie Villanueva but that will never happen lol but if it did wouldnt this roster be nice.

PG-Kirk Hinrich 6'3/PG-Chris Duhon 6'1
SG-Luol Deng 6'9/SG-Ben Gordon 6'3
SF-Charlie Villanueva 6'11/SF-Luol Deng 6'9
PF-Tyson Chandler 7'1/PF-Andres Nocioni 6'7/PF-Darius Songaila 6'9
C-Nene 6'11/C-Shelden Williams 6'11/C-Malik Allen 6'10 (vet)

and Antonio Davis 6'9 (vet) and and inactive vet would do.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

If we want to draft a big in '07, it would make the front court too crowded to draft 2 of the 3 top bigs this year. That is too many young players at the same position, plus Tyson.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

The ROY said:


> WTF
> 
> LMAO


Sentiments expressed with the deft subtlety we've come to expect from you, ROY.

I think either Robert Swift or Johan Petro has a shot to be a pretty good center pretty soon. Swift, at age 20, averaged 6 and 6 with a block a game in 20 MPG last year. He's skilled, doesn't turn the ball over, and is a legit 7 footer. I think he'll be putting up double doubles with regularity sooner than later.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

I'm beginning to consistently have nightmares about NOT drafting Bargnani.

I didn't think they would be nightmares, but after I wake up, I'm always in a state of panic and sweating.

Just take Bargnani, and move up to take brewer, and in next years draft take Durant.

We'll be one of the top 3 teams for the next 10 years.


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## animalthugism (Aug 23, 2005)

NO... If Pax were to pull of any deals it would be to add more of a veteran presence, not more youth!


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## Bolts (Nov 7, 2003)

oops, misread the post. Bad trade prop with Seattle. Very bad.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

jbulls said:


> Sentiments expressed with the deft subtlety we've come to expect from you, ROY.
> 
> I think either Robert Swift or Johan Petro has a shot to be a pretty good center pretty soon. Swift, at age 20, averaged 6 and 6 with a block a game in 20 MPG last year. He's skilled, doesn't turn the ball over, and is a legit 7 footer. I think he'll be putting up double doubles with regularity sooner than later.


just let me know where you're BUYING it from...cuz i definintely need to be rolling up some of what you're smoking...

those two bigs' are NOTHING, which is why the sonics are still DEPERATE for frontcourt help.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Robert Swift is better than every big in this draft and every big on your roster.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> Robert Swift is better than every big in this draft and every big on your roster.


not YOUUUUU again 

LMAO @ Robert Swift

SUREeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

please don't MAKE me make a SIG out of that line.


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

:banghead:


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

> Should the Bulls trade Deng for the 1st or 3rd pick?


No. 
This years top draftees don't come with guarantees.
But Deng is a very good, maybe someday great, NBA player.
Don't trade the Bird in hand for the Nowitski in the bush.


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## Fizer Fanatic (Jun 20, 2002)

I'd say no, also. Nocioni and Deng could already be our forward combination of the future. Plus, I don't think there are 2 guys better than Deng to draft this year. Deng's ready to play now, but whoever we might get instead of him might take 3-4 years to hopefully develop somewhere close to where Deng is now. I'd just take whoever's left between Aldridge and Bargnani (while also considering Roy and Thomas if we find serious issues with either of the first two), and be happy about it.


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## ChiSox (Jun 9, 2004)

Nobody believe any of the bigs in the this draft will be allstars??? If this is true, then we are in trouble! I believe at least one and maybe two will make a allstar team. This is a weak draft for instant impact but I don't think this draft is as bad as the Martin/Swift/fizer draft. Deng would probably be the number one/two pick in this draft but we already have one sf and there are a couple really good free agent sf. 

To me, there are four/five really good fa Harrington, Peja, B Wallace, J Terry and maybe Bonzi Wells. None of them either fit the current make up of our team, are too old or can't co-exist with Skiles. There are some young bigs with question marks Wilcox, Nene and Gooden. Two of them are restricted fa so their team can match any offer we give them. We may need to change the make of our team to make us better. Small forward is the easiest position to replace someone with a good player.

We won't be replacing Deng with a rookie. We would be replacing a yound Deng with a quality veteran.


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## taurus515th (Oct 13, 2005)

ChiSox said:


> Nobody believe any of the bigs in the this draft will be allstars??? If this is true, then we are in trouble! I believe at least one and maybe two will make a allstar team. This is a weak draft for instant impact but I don't think this draft is as bad as the Martin/Swift/fizer draft. Deng would probably be the number one/two pick in this draft but we already have one sf and there are a couple really good free agent sf.
> 
> To me, there are four/five really good fa Harrington, Peja, B Wallace, J Terry and maybe Bonzi Wells. None of them either fit the current make up of our team, are too old or can't co-exist with Skiles. There are some young bigs with question marks Wilcox, Nene and Gooden. Two of them are restricted fa so their team can match any offer we give them. We may need to change the make of our team to make us better. Small forward is the easiest position to replace someone with a good player.
> 
> We won't be replacing Deng with a rookie. We would be replacing a yound Deng with a quality veteran.


i think the the bigs can someday be allstars. i just think they need to develop but i might be wrong they might show us all wrong u never know.


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## nanokooshball (Jan 22, 2005)

This team doesn't need to get any yuonger by trading Deng. Plus Deng has so much potential.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Nobody believe any of the bigs in the this draft will be allstars??? If this is true, then we are in trouble!


This has been known for ages, this draft does not have a sure thing. We could easily trade Deng for another top pick and walk away with the next twin towers, or we could of easily bought into the hype and traded a future all-star.
Sadly we have seen this happen once before, why would we want to repeat the same mistake.
If we were to trade Deng it better be for an impact player playing in the NBA, not for someone who we hope to become one or hasn't showed signs of becomming one either.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Rudy Gay has the tools to be better than Deng. Question is, does he have the drive? I'm not saying I want to trade Deng, but I think Gay has the tools, build, and potential to be an amazing player. No other UConn player has ever been as hyped as Gay. And they give out some good products in Emeka, Gordon, Allen, Rip, Butler, and Marshall.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Deng will be getting a big contract sooner than a 1st or 3rd pick.

That's all you need to know, if you root for the suits.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> Deng will be getting a big contract sooner than a 1st or 3rd pick.
> 
> That's all you need to know, if you root for the suits.


I am yet to meet the Bulls fan that roots for the ownership group's profit margin. Though certainly you and a couple of others repeatedly make this disengenuous claim.

Backing moves of questionable players to conserve payroll to gain strategic salary cap room as an alternative means to improve the team is not "rooting for the suits". It is rooting for the team. 

And lets see how many of the core get traded for rookie contracts now that we have a core that management appears to have faith in. A core that has actually accomplished something more than the abject embarrassment of earlier "cores".


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

I tell you what I would think about doing. I'd trade Deng + our #16 for Toronto's pick AND Toronto's pick next year, unprotected. Let's say Toronto ends up with a #6 pick next year or so, a manageable prediction. Let's say a vastly improved Josh McRoberts is available at that pick, also a conservative prediction (next year's draft is packed with Oden, Durant, Noah, Brandan Wright, Hansborough, Yi Jianlian... McRoberts is usually a standout talent but he's just another player compared to those guys).

Four years down the line, it would be hard for me to look at a Deng + Shawne Williams for Bargnani + McRoberts trade as anything but a steal. Seriously. Even if it comes out being Bargnani + Al Horford, it'd be worth it. Next year's #10-12 pick is as good as this year's #4.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

If the right deal comes along, I would move Deng. For example, if we could move Deng + 16 for GSW's 9 + Pietrus, I would do it. It would give us a lot of flexibility at 9. We could go O'Bryant, Carney, Brewer, Gay (if he slipped) at 9. 

With that said, I love Noce too. But Noce will be up for a huge contract extension next year. We will really have to decide soon who we want to keep. The thing is, it'll be hard to keep both Noce and Deng b/c both will want contracts bigger than the MLE. 

Noce probably has a lot of trade value right now, coming of a great playoff run. We could use him + 16 (vs using Deng) and trade with a few teams. But, like a point I stated earlier, I don't see management paying a lot to keep two well paid SFs. Whether that be Luol and Noce, or replace one with Al Harrington.

I could see a Vet team like Minny possibly giving up their lotto pick for a guy like Noce. But Pax has said we want to get older, not younger. I think come draft time, we all get a lil fuzzy inside thinking of the potential of all these kids. But, few make the big impact needed to produce quality teams.

With that said, the only trade which I would do, that I be content with would be moving Deng to GSW for Pietrus and their lotto. But, I don't see them doing that with their glut of SFs (Dunleavy and big contract).


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Trade Checker:

Noce for Minn's #6 - Works
Noce + 16 for Minn's #6 - Works

Deng + 16 for Pietrus + 9 - Works
Deng for Pietrus + 9 - Works


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I am yet to meet the Bulls fan that roots for the ownership group's profit margin. Though certainly you and a couple of others repeatedly make this disengenuous claim.
> 
> Backing moves of questionable players to conserve payroll to gain strategic salary cap room as an alternative means to improve the team is not "rooting for the suits". It is rooting for the team.
> 
> And lets see how many of the core get traded for rookie contracts now that we have a core that management appears to have faith in. A core that has actually accomplished something more than the abject embarrassment of earlier "cores".


Management says it has faith in the "core" every year.

Those earlier "cores" were the "cornerstones of the franchise" after all.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

DaBullz said:


> Management says it has faith in the "core" every year.
> 
> Those earlier "cores" were the "cornerstones of the franchise" after all.


Of course it does. What else are they going to say? The fact is that this core has made the playoffs two years straight.


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## mw2889 (Dec 15, 2005)

Why does it seem like no one cares about Deng, I'd say he's our best prospect. He's still at an age where most players are bench warming in the NBA, he's headed for stardom.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> he's headed for stardom


Oh do tell


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## Bulltalker (Jun 2, 2006)

The best players available this year are 3's. Harrington (free agent), Morrison, Tyrus Thomas (looks like a 3 to me), and Gay. I would probably rather have any of those players than Deng. 

I would easily trade Deng for TT, LA, or Bargs, especially if I knew I was going to sign Harrington.

I think Nocioni is an outstanding 6th man at 3, maybe better than Deng. 

We need a real center, and if Deng + assets would get us a real center, I'd be all for it.

I would most like to aquire Pietrus for Deng, I would even overpay. Pietrus and Gordon are a nice 1-2 punch. Roy might be a better fit than Deng.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Deng worths about 10th pick.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> Management says it has faith in the "core" every year.
> 
> Those earlier "cores" were the "cornerstones of the franchise" after all.


First, that does nothing to support the notion that any of us who post on this website "root for the suits". It'd probably be better for discussion all around if you'd drop this fallacy as it is clearly intended to degrade the pro-management contingent of posters on this board you help run. 

Second, this core has actually had prompt success. If, to the detriment of the team, ownership breaks it up by trading guys off for more rookie contracts to avoid paying them extensions, then you will absolutely be right that ownership is more intersted in the bottom line than paying for a winner. 

Buts lets see if it actually happens first, shall we? Preemptive attacks simply display irrational bias.

Reinsdorf has always said he'd pay for a winner - as he did in the past. Now we'll see if he's willing to do it again. He better do it again.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

So we didn't learn our lesson when we traded Elton for Tyson?

:no: :no: :no:


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

I got sidetracked. 

As for the idea of trading Deng, its an interesting one. But it suffers from the same concern that the idea of drafting Roy has. Its a contingent theory with the contingency being satisfied *after the move is made.* In this case it is contingent on getting Harrington or Peja in free agency. I don't believe that any draft moves should be made based on assumptions in free agency.

Draft so you know what you are getting, and then fill in around it through free agency.

Certainly Nocioni's arrival has made Deng more tradeable than he was before. But lets get the draftees and free agents in place first, and then look at consolidating some of our guys in trade. Or consolidate them on draft day if a good option comes up. 

But I don't want this team drafting based on free agency assumptions. Not unless they already have illegal contracts in place.

Also, neither Toronto or Charlotte would trade the #1 or #3 for just Deng. We'd have to give up more.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> I got sidetracked.
> 
> As for the idea of trading Deng, its an interesting one. But it suffers from the same concern that the idea of drafting Roy has. Its a contingent theory with the contingency being satisfied *after the move is made.* In this case it is contingent on getting Harrington or Peja in free agency. I don't believe that any draft moves should be made based on assumptions in free agency.
> 
> ...


I don't like the idea of trading Deng for a pick. There are no sure things, especially in this draft. Meanwhile, we've got a 20 year old who averaged 16 and 8 after the All-Star break last year. Is anybody in this draft a sure bet to do even that?


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I haven't read through this whole thread and if someone has already posted this, then nevermind...

It seems like there's a bit of draftitis going on around here. For six terrible years we've been fed the "this draft is going to be the one" line. It's fun to think about how player X or Y is going to come in and dominate. For six years, that's pretty much all we had to hang our hats on. This team finally starts to become relavent again, has a very nice and very young core and all some folks want to do is to trade possibly the best young piece for someone unproven? I don't think I'd trade Deng for anyone in this draft. Primarily because I don't think there is a single player who'll give us what Deng will next year. Plus, you're pretty much assured that Luol is gonna give you around 15ppg, 5-6 boards and play solid defense. You don't have those same assurances with any of the players in this draft.

Keep the picks Pax. Take the two best players availabe, sign a free agent or two and call it a summer. The last thing this team needs is to get even younger by bringing in three first round picks. Two is plenty.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

jbulls said:


> I don't like the idea of trading Deng for a pick. There are no sure things, especially in this draft. Meanwhile, we've got a 20 year old who averaged 16 and 8 after the All-Star break last year. Is anybody in this draft a sure bet to do even that?


I'm with the two of you on this, in the shocker of the century. Someone above said that they'd rather have Morrison, Al, Peja, Gay, and TT than Luol. I don't understand why. Harrington averaged 18 and 7 on a team that ran a fair amount of plays for him to score. He's a good player, but I think Deng could be his equal within another year or two at most, even without having much offense run for him. Peja is starting to decline and really only brings outside shooting. The rest are rookies and I think if Deng had played 2 more years at Duke, he'd be drafted right with all of them at the top, if not above them. 

Nocioni's breakout does make Deng a moveable commodity, but I hope the Bulls use extreme caution in exploring this possibility. He just put together a really good 2nd season where he improved in every statistical category, he's young, and he seems like a really good guy on and off the court. While I'm not sure he's ever going to be a superstar, I do think he could be an occasional All-star. If we do move him, I want excellent value in return. Another pick in this draft is interesting, but not quite enough, for reasons you and Ron mentioned.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ViciousFlogging said:


> Nocioni's breakout does make Deng a moveable commodity, but I hope the Bulls use extreme caution in exploring this possibility. *He just put together a really good 2nd season where he improved in every statistical category,* he's young, and he seems like a really good guy on and off the court. While I'm not sure he's ever going to be a superstar, I do think he could be an occasional All-star. If we do move him, I want excellent value in return.


That is exactly how I feel about it. 

And I want to add one thing about his second season improvements. He made those improvements despite the fact that the two most important things he needed to work on last summer, shooting and upper body strength, he couldn't work on due to injury.

Frankly, I expected Deng to more or less tread water last season in the improvement department. That he improved so significantly even though he couldn't work on the true weaknesses in his game for an entire offseason, is critical in evaluating his future. At least thats what I think.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I got sidetracked.
> 
> As for the idea of trading Deng, its an interesting one. But it suffers from the same concern that the idea of drafting Roy has. Its a contingent theory with the contingency being satisfied *after the move is made.* In this case it is contingent on getting Harrington or Peja in free agency. I don't believe that any draft moves should be made based on assumptions in free agency.
> 
> ...


I disagree slightly. I don't believe we should be making draft moves contingent on signing *a big man* in free agency. The two best big men, Gooden and Nene, are RFA, which makes them very hard to sign. Harrington on the other hand is an UFA, which makes him extremely gettable. There are 7 teams with capspace: LAC, Charlotte, Toronto, Chicago, Utah, New Orleans, and Atlanta. None of those teams are a serious threat to bid for Harrington. Utah barely has cap space and has Kirilenko at the same position. Atlanta certainly doesn't want him. Charlotte is looking to get a SF in the draft. Toronto has Bosh and Villanueva at the same position. LAC has a very frugal owner and Cassell to resign. Many of those teams will want to roll their cap space over the next summer. Etc. In short, making a draft move with the intention to sign Harrington in free agency is a very small gamble. 

I don't want to trade Deng, anyway, but I would love to trade Nocioni if we could get Roy in return, somehow. Noc and Harrington are very similar players with the same skillset. 

Am I correct in saying that the board would rather keep Nocioni than Deng? If so, why?? I still think Deng is going to be the better player by a fair margin. There's a reason Deng was a starter over Nocioni his rookie season and most of last year, and it's not because Nocioni was great coming off the bench like Ben Gordon.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> First, that does nothing to support the notion that any of us who post on this website "root for the suits". It'd probably be better for discussion all around if you'd drop this fallacy as it is clearly intended to degrade the pro-management contingent of posters on this board you help run.
> 
> Second, this core has actually had prompt success. If, to the detriment of the team, ownership breaks it up by trading guys off for more rookie contracts to avoid paying them extensions, then you will absolutely be right that ownership is more intersted in the bottom line than paying for a winner.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the lecture.

But I have every right to be dubious of the Bulls' likelihood of spending for a winner after a decade of not doing so.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Ballscientist said:


> Deng worths about 10th pick.


No way...the only players with more stock than him right now are LaMarcus Aldridge, Tyrus Thomas, Adam Morrison, Rudy Gay and POSSIBLY Andrea Bargnani.

It's quite probable that only one or two players out of this draft will end up being better than Deng. One could make a case that Deng would be worth the 3rd pick, given Morrison's defensive weaknesses.

However...why would Chicago want to trade Deng for a draft pick?


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

rwj333 said:


> Am I correct in saying that the board would rather keep Nocioni than Deng? If so, why?? I still think Deng is going to be the better player by a fair margin. There's a reason Deng was a starter over Nocioni his rookie season and most of last year, and it's not because Nocioni was great coming off the bench like Ben Gordon.


I think you are correct. And though I'm a huge fan of Deng, I think I know at least a couple reasons why people would rather keep Noc than Luol if forced to choose. 

*I mentioned that Luol's numbers went up across the board in his 2nd year. Nocioni's numbers improved even more dramatically and his per-minute productivity went up a lot, while Deng's stayed pretty steady.

*Noc showed up huge in the playoffs, raising his game to its highest level yet, while Deng's play was mediocre at best. Guys make names for themselves in the playoffs - Noc did, Deng did not.

*Noc has a certain intangible quality for making big plays, getting into the other team's psyche, and being a real emotional beacon for the team. Guys like that can be hard to find. Deng is more low-key, and often has games where he "quietly" puts up 20 points but doesn't seem to be imposing his will on the game. He may not ever be a real leader-type, though it's possible.


Personally, I think we should keep them both, at least for another season. Like I said, I want excellent value for Deng (or Noc for that matter) in a trade. I probably overrate how much each guy could get us right now, so in light of that fact, I'd rather keep them (and play them a lot of minutes together) than feel like we "lost" a trade involving them.


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## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

ViciousFlogging said:


> Personally, I think we should keep them both, at least for another season. Like I said, I want excellent value for Deng (or Noc for that matter) in a trade. I probably overrate how much each guy could get us right now, so in light of that fact, I'd rather keep them (and play them a lot of minutes together) than feel like we "lost" a trade involving them.


I agree with this, I won't include either guy in a trade unless it's for a young emerging superstar, and I'm not talking about Garnett or Ben Wallace here.


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## LIBlue (Aug 17, 2002)

Why all the love for Rudy Gay. *According to Chad Ford at ESPN*, Gay is 6-9, 222. As a sophmore, he averaged 15.2 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 2.1 apg, 2.5 TO, shot .461 from the field and .732 from the line in 30.8 minutes per game.

Tyrus Thomas (6-9, 229), as a freshman, averaged 12.3 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.8 TO, shot .608 from the field and .657 from the line in 25.9 minutes per game. His stats overall were better than Gay's as a freshman (11.5 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 1.5 apg, 2.0 TO, .462 %, .708 FT%, 28.8 minutes per game).

Tyrus Thomas has amazing upside, like Gay. But Gay was a disappointment this year. He is rated as the # 6 player in the draft, while Thomas is rated the # 1 player. Deng was considered a steal as the # 7 pick in a deep draft, and Gay is rated # 6 in a weak draft. If both were in the same draft, I would bet Deng would be rated higher than Gay, so why trade a highly rated, two-year player, at the same position, so you can draft a dissapointing player with potential?


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## Bulltalker (Jun 2, 2006)

ViciousFlogging said:


> I'm with the two of you on this, in the shocker of the century. Someone above said that they'd rather have Morrison, Al, Peja, Gay, and TT than Luol. I don't understand why. Harrington averaged 18 and 7 on a team that ran a fair amount of plays for him to score. He's a good player, but I think Deng could be his equal within another year or two at most, even without having much offense run for him. Peja is starting to decline and really only brings outside shooting. The rest are rookies and I think if Deng had played 2 more years at Duke, he'd be drafted right with all of them at the top, if not above them.
> 
> Nocioni's breakout does make Deng a moveable commodity, but I hope the Bulls use extreme caution in exploring this possibility. He just put together a really good 2nd season where he improved in every statistical category, he's young, and he seems like a really good guy on and off the court. While I'm not sure he's ever going to be a superstar, I do think he could be an occasional All-star. If we do move him, I want excellent value in return. Another pick in this draft is interesting, but not quite enough, for reasons you and Ron mentioned.


Look Luol is a good player, but he is expendable because Nocioni is there and we can get Harrington if we want. I'd rather get 2 pieces than 1. This year will probably be the only chance to sign a meaningful free agent in Harrington. He is very similar to Deng, IMO. I can't trade Harrington, so I'll have to trade Deng. What can I get for Deng? What about Deng and 16? Deng 16 and next year's #1? If we can't get Harrington, the best players this year are 3's--Morrison, Gay, Thomas, Carney. If I could get one of those guys AND Aldredge, I've used my assets to improve the team.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Bulltalker said:


> Look Luol is a good player, but he is expendable because Nocioni is there and we can get Harrington if we want. I'd rather get 2 pieces than 1. This year will probably be the only chance to sign a meaningful free agent in Harrington. He is very similar to Deng, IMO. I can't trade Harrington, so I'll have to trade Deng. What can I get for Deng? What about Deng and 16? Deng 16 and next year's #1? If we can't get Harrington, the best players this year are 3's--Morrison, Gay, Thomas, Carney. If I could get one of those guys AND Aldredge, I've used my assets to improve the team.


That's the second time I've watched you mortgage next years #1 for a talented player who can't lead his team anywhere.

We have the swap with NY. What if its a top 3 or 4 pick? That player would be more valuable than anyone in the above post. Including Harrington, AND deng.

And with that in mind, ANY trade of deng would have to include the other teams 2007 #1 unprotected.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Deng should not be dealt. He is 21 years old or something like that and probably has as much upside as anyone in this draft. He is a good player. Sure I have issues with some aspects of his game, but I think he will get better and better. He works hard and has a God given feel for the game that will certainly lead to higher results down the road. So I dont see how dealing a for sure already good young player for a potential maybe works right now. Even if he and Nocioni are going to get in each others way.


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## Bulltalker (Jun 2, 2006)

The Krakken said:


> That's the second time I've watched you mortgage next years #1 for a talented player who can't lead his team anywhere.
> 
> We have the swap with NY. What if its a top 3 or 4 pick? That player would be more valuable than anyone in the above post. Including Harrington, AND deng.
> 
> And with that in mind, ANY trade of deng would have to include the other teams 2007 #1 unprotected.


It's time to mortgage the future, especially when the assets are overvalued. The Knicks have a talented roster, and I think they will pull together this year to prove it. What if it's an 18 pick and ours is a 16? If you read my post, I was wondering what we could get for Deng and that pick. 

"A talented player player who can't lead his team anywhere" such as Garnett, Pierce, Gasol or O'Neil would be welcomed to a Bulls team with a nice supporting cast in place. All we need is 2 stars to go with our team of 6th men. I want to use the #2 this year to get a star and trade for a star this year. Let's cash in some chips (and overpay if necessary) to get a player instead of looking forward to next year's draft for our savior.

I am only using Deng because he is most easily replaced this year.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Bulltalker said:


> It's time to mortgage the future, especially when the assets are overvalued. The Knicks have a talented roster, and I think they will pull together this year to prove it. What if it's an 18 pick and ours is a 16? If you read my post, I was wondering what we could get for Deng and that pick.
> 
> "A talented player player who can't lead his team anywhere" such as Garnett, Pierce, Gasol or O'Neil would be welcomed to a Bulls team with a nice supporting cast in place. All we need is 2 stars to go with our team of 6th men. I want to use the #2 this year to get a star and trade for a star this year. Let's cash in some chips (and overpay if necessary) to get a player instead of looking forward to next year's draft for our savior.
> 
> I am only using Deng because he is most easily replaced this year.


Fair enough. I still think its giving up too much. But I can see where you are coming from.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Bulltalker said:


> It's time to mortgage the future, especially when the assets are overvalued. The Knicks have a talented roster, and I think they will pull together this year to prove it. What if it's an 18 pick and ours is a 16? If you read my post, I was wondering what we could get for Deng and that pick.
> 
> "A talented player player who can't lead his team anywhere" such as Garnett, Pierce, Gasol or O'Neil would be welcomed to a Bulls team with a nice supporting cast in place. All we need is 2 stars to go with our team of 6th men. I want to use the #2 this year to get a star and trade for a star this year. Let's cash in some chips (and overpay if necessary) to get a player instead of looking forward to next year's draft for our savior.
> 
> I am only using Deng because he is most easily replaced this year.


Where we disagree is the "overpay if necessary" part. If it's not a good value, don't do it, period. I also agree that Deng and Duhon are the two I consider tradeable because they're backups and not starters....and the starters are very high quality guys. I still only move them if it's for a very good value. You simply don't give up more assets than you're getting in return in a trade. If this team was good enough to almost get to the 2nd round of the playoffs this year, why not just keep it intact, take 2 good guys in the draft this year, and try for some free agents, rather than ship off half the team in some trade? Deng for the #1, giving us #s 1, 2, & 16 would be pretty good I think, but do you see Deng going for the #1 pick? And for that matter, is the guy at #1 going to be better anyway? I guess I'm a fan of building a team though the draft, rather than FA and trades. If you have a guy you don't need on the team, trade him for something of more use, but don't just trade for the sake of trading, especially if you're getting the short end of the stick.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> I think you are correct. And though I'm a huge fan of Deng, I think I know at least a couple reasons why people would rather keep Noc than Luol if forced to choose.
> 
> *I mentioned that Luol's numbers went up across the board in his 2nd year. Nocioni's numbers improved even more dramatically and his per-minute productivity went up a lot, while Deng's stayed pretty steady.
> 
> ...


Great post. You're probably correct that it would be best to keep them both and you're absolutely right about Nocioni's emotional impact. I hadn't considered that aspect. However, a few things concern me about Nocioni. First, I feel that he's peaked as a player (though I thought he peaked last year, so I could easily be wrong again.) I also think that part of his statistical breakout is due to playing more minutes at power forward-- where he can get more rebounds and close scoring opportunities. The games logs of March and April show that Nocioni and Deng averaged about 70 minutes a game, but Deng always plays small forward. Next year, we (should) have more big men and Nocioni's minutes should drop as a result. He's good at PF, but not ideal defensively due to his size, unless we plan on imitating Phoenix with an Aldridge-Nocioni-Deng-Hinrich-Gordon lineup. 

I've grown attached to Nocioni because he seems like a good guy and he plays with such emotion, but I think his eventual role is 20-25 minutes a game as a great energy player off the bench. I doubt that the hypothetical Nocioni + filler for Roy scenario would ever occur, but I'm pretty surprised that people on the board aren't jumping at the idea (it makes sense in so many ways), and would rather trade Deng instead. Deng didn't have a great series against Miami, but he's still a better defender, younger, and FWIW the leader in +/- on our team.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> Deng should not be dealt. He is 21 years old or something like that and probably has as much upside as anyone in this draft. He is a good player. Sure I have issues with some aspects of his game, but I think he will get better and better. He works hard and has a God given feel for the game that will certainly lead to higher results down the road. So I dont see how dealing a for sure already good young player for a potential maybe works right now. Even if he and Nocioni are going to get in each others way.



I agree as well. WHy trade a young player with as much upside as Deng for a draft pick in a suppossedly weak draft?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

ace20004u said:


> I agree as well. WHy trade a young player with as much upside as Deng for a draft pick in a suppossedly weak draft?


I was JUST thinking the same thing. I doubt he'd get traded for anything LESS than a Vet.


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