# babcock was bad ... BC proving to be worse.



## charlz

BC has managed to totally deplete the Raptors.

Calderon/ and now Ukic are Babcock finds.
Sam Mitchell was a babcock hire.
Bosh was here already...

Charlie V + Joey -> FORD (older more expensive) -> JO (even older more expensive).
Andrea -> is a wasted pick.
Delfino for one year = 2 lost 2nd round draft picks.
no #17 pick this year?

WTF?

If JO breaks down Bosh is gone in 2 years for sure.. and he may be anyhow because who the he11 wants to play with Bargs.

The cupboards are bare... the writing is on the wall rebuilding will start once they trade JO's expiring contract for an over paid diminishing asset + draft pick(s).

Here we go again...


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## southeasy

you make good points.

you do.

thats all i can say, i'll wait to tell


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## trick

babcock - with a realtively healthy lineup, 55 wins in 2 seasons, 0 playoff appearances
colangelo - with various injuries to key players, 88 wins in 2 seasons, 2 playoff appearances

i don't care what a gm does as long as they put a winning product out there. this doesn't mean i won't criticize any of colangelo's moves but i will wait to see how it pans out before i start calling for his head. so far i have had no problem with his initial plan as it seemed to be working but due to a couple of big surprises (calderon's contributions, garbo's injury) it hasn't panned. the jo move is still up in the air but i'd rather have an inside defensive presence + their 21 mil expiring in 2 years than the group of ford+rasho+baston+hibbert any day of the week.

as for the delfino for 2 2nd rounders, a team would be lucky if a second rounder turns out to be a delfino-type player (i.e. they actually play like they belong in the nba) but the reason why his status in toronto is up in the air is not because lack of skills but lack of money on the raptors front. it was a gamble worth taking.

oh how it wasn't that long ago that the raptors were fighting for top 5 picks. i'd rather be excited throughout the season rather than being excited every year in june.


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## Dee-Zy

The stats look good when you say 88 wins in 2 seasons but the thread starter's argument is that BC is riding Babcock's success (ie: the development of Calderon)


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## trick

Dee-Zy said:


> The stats look good when you say 88 wins in 2 seasons but the thread starter's argument is that BC is riding Babcock's success (ie: the development of Calderon)


...and calderon was solely responsible for those 88 wins? i guess the additions of parker/garbo/ford/rasho had nothing to do with the 88 wins?

how about looking at it this way, colangelo w/ embry are cleaning up his messes regarding the blunderous VC trade, adding depth which turned out to be a quality big man to addresses the franchise ever longing need, and finally having some quality players on the court to actually compete in the playoffs.

don't get me wrong, babcock did do some good things. drafting charlie at 7 when alot have him as in the 10-17 range, getting calderon for cheap when everyone was more enamored with sarunas "i'm not even in the nba anymore" jasikevicius, and built the team to start from scrach and actually be in a true rebuilding mode. personally i think he was partially hired to be the franchise's whipping boy during the harsh losing seasons but at the same time he could have done a way better job throughout the whole process.

i just have a hard time understanding why people are calling for bryan's head after two seasons of rebuilding. 2 freakin' seasons.

remember these lineups?:
alvin/mopete/jyd/davis/olajuwon
rose/alvin/carter/donyell/bosh
alston/carter/mopete/bosh/woods
james/mopete/villanueva/bosh/sow

now compare those with:
ford/parker/garbo/bosh/rasho
calderon/parker/kapono/bosh/o'neal


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## seifer0406

at least Colangelo isn't afraid of making changes. Babcock never did anything other than that horrendous BC trade. Calderon was a great find, but that and drafting CV were the only bright spots of his time here.

Some people praise Babcock for unloading VC's contract. But to be honest for a player of VC's caliber if the Raptors were looking for expiring contracts that should be the least we should get. People also say that VC was traded for crap because of him tanking games, but for it to get to that point Babcock had a large part to do with it.

And as for Smitch, remember he was voted the worst coach in the NBA when he was working for Babcock? You can't really say that he was a "Babcock find" as if he would've become the coach he is today without Colangelo sorting of the team.


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## Balzac

Ridiculous. Parker was sensational his first year with the Raptors. Rasho came in and provided a big body. Garbo gave us a hustle big. Ford was good as well. Without these 4 players we would've been in the bottom 10 again. And if Babcock was drafting for us, who knows what we would've gotten.

Losing 2nd rounders for Delfino wasn't a big deal. Most 2nd rounders never develop into NBA players anyway. Charlie V = overrated when he was on a very bad Raptors team. Swapping him when his value was high proved to be a great move. If JO breaks down in 2 years, we'll have space to sign another star. Bosh will be here for a long, long time. 

I wouldn't fault Babcock too much on the VC trade. When your oft-injured star tanks his way to the bench, it's hard to unload that massive contract. Sam Mitchell, to this day, I am not sold on. Some of his substitutions are hilariously confusing.

Bryan Colangelo is a great GM. He makes a lot of moves, and he makes mistakes. But he strives to get value and accumulate assets. Our cap situation is looking great, we have a good team, we have upside (don't totally write-off Andrea yet), so I don't understand how exactly Colangelo is doing a bad job.


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## a_i_4_life

fred jones as well

When we hired Colangelo a lot of people thought that this was what we needed, well it clearly has lived up to expectations. It's easy to say oh, we got Colangelo that means we're automatically going to be a way better team and maybe make a serious playoff push, i think this what a lot of raptor fans did.


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## changv10

hahaha - nit picking on the bad side of Bryan Colangelo, and highlighting the few good things from Babcock. 

So you like the Rafael Araujo pick better than the Andrea Bargnani pick ? I'd say most prefer Bargnani over Araujo. (BC+1)

How about what came out of Araujo? Do you prefer an Araujo who's playing I don't know where? I stick with Hump... serviceable big man on an NBA bench(BC+1)

Babcock traded VC for scrap. I guess you enjoy Eric Williams and Aaron William days? 
I don't know about you, but I liked what Nesterovic brought. And now he is bringing an all-star for us. (BC+1)

TJ wasn't traded for scrap, we got a 6-time, 29 year old, former MVP nominee, allstar back. At least this is way greater than what RB got for VC. (BC+1)

As some people say, Anthony Parker is a very good player. Now one of the captains. Calderon took time to flourish. Parker was an immediate hit. (BC+1)

Jamario Moon anyone? (BC+1). 

And we haven't seen what Aussie Baby Shaq can do. 

There is a reason why BC was executive of the year dude.


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## osman

Haha, I love how people neglect those two second round picks for Delfino as nothing, yet glamour over Ukic and Jawai coming over, both second round picks, ah the irony.

By the way, we have money for Delfino, its called the MLE. Signing Calderon is not part of the MLE, we have his bird rights and could match any offer he got.

I'm not really happy about how the whole Garbo saga ended as well. But I still prefer BC over Babcock. Bargs was a bad pick, Araujo was just plain horrible. 

Again, I don't know what BC's plan is. Win now? Win later? With a team like Portland you can see what plan is. What is the plan for the TO? And told tell me 2010 Cap Space to sign top notch talent, I'm tired of hearing that, every single team in the league is looking for cap space in 2010. Breaking news, we're not getting Lebron. I'll be happy if we can just keep Bosh.


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## silverpaw1786

You guys just stole Jermaine O'Neal for an aging crappy point guard. Why don't you just enjoy it? You went from being a mediocre team to a decent one.


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## seifer0406

silverpaw1786 said:


> You guys just stole Jermaine O'Neal for an aging crappy point guard. Why don't you just enjoy it? You went from being a mediocre team to a decent one.


TJ Ford is 25 years old. If he's an "Aging" point guard we've got a lot of seniors playing in the NBA.


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## trick

osman said:


> Haha, I love how people neglect those two second round picks for Delfino as nothing, yet glamour over Ukic and Jawai coming over, both second round picks, ah the irony.
> 
> By the way, we have money for Delfino, its called the MLE. Signing Calderon is not part of the MLE, we have his bird rights and could match any offer he got.
> 
> I'm not really happy about how the whole Garbo saga ended as well. But I still prefer BC over Babcock. Bargs was a bad pick, Araujo was just plain horrible.
> 
> Again, I don't know what BC's plan is. Win now? Win later? With a team like Portland you can see what plan is. What is the plan for the TO? And told tell me 2010 Cap Space to sign top notch talent, I'm tired of hearing that, every single team in the league is looking for cap space in 2010. Breaking news, we're not getting Lebron. I'll be happy if we can just keep Bosh.


who's drooling over ukic? jawai? ppl are excited to see what they can do, not because they think they can be productive and already have them pegged as rotational nba players. for all we know they could be busts but i'm excited to see how any new raptor, first round or second round pick, free agent, acquired via trade will do. just like how i'm excited how hassan adams will do. i'm excited to see how jermaine will do. newest additions added to a lineup that's never donned this many big men before. excuse us for being excited over something new.

and what is portland's plan? build around oden and roy? what if oden turns out to be a prolonging injured player? what if roy and bayless can't work together? what if lamarcus wants his own team instead of having to defer to two other players? uh-oh, it's contract extension time, roy and lamarcus are asking for max, what about oden and bayless? rudy fernandez, travis outlaw, channing frye, joel pryzbilla. do you really think they can keep all these players once the huge contracts are going to be dished out? because i sure can't. (unless they all pull an extreme gilbert arenas offer and ask for 6 mil each which i don't see happening) 

wanna hear a gameplan? stockpile on talent then trade them for proven stars. can't get the stars? keep stockpiling talent. lather, rinse, repeat until you have a championship team. because apparently in today's nba teams with disgruntled stars will trade them away for a good young piece, capsapce and prospects. what has bc done? taken a good young piece (ford), capspace (rasho+baston), and a prospect (hibbert) to acquire a former all-star and a key players on a 60-win team. will it pan out? who knows, but it's a risk worth taking IMO. it addresses 2 of the team's 3 biggest needs. if it completely backfires, guess what, suffer through it for one year then trade his expiring ***. oh wait, it does work? let's resign the whole bunch since it's proven there's a chance of winning with this core. you need to take risks like these and stopped hoping the draft picks will pan out, or else we'll become the los angeles clippers or the milwaukee bucks, or freefall like the bulls this past season.

and no, we don't have money for Deflino. we're apparently 5.5 mil under the tax, and it's probably less since we just signed ukic and adams. you think delfino will stay for the same contract? hey i hear the spurs are knocking, they could just give him 4 mil and be done with it. what's that? greece is offering 6 mil? sheesh.


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## lucky777s

People just refuse to look at the situations both GM's inherited. 

Babock walked into the worst of all worlds. An old, capped out team, with a lazy unmotivated 'star' who was constantly injured and who asked for a trade the minute the new GM walked in the door because his personal choice for GM, Doctor J !?!, was not hired. The 'star' quickly made his trade demands public, then gave a half assed effort to begin the season and requested to come off the bench!!, before going on the injured list again. 

People forget what a joke VC had become. Other teams laughed while he lay on the floor milking the slightest injury. US reporters were calling him soft and weak. 

There was no bidding war for VC because hardly any team was willing to take the chance on him. Not because Babcock somehow bungeld it. Rob's only mistake was not trading VC on draft day or in July, but he had only been on the job TWO WEEKS, even though McCloskey pegged him as the man months earlier. That falls on Peddie and Tannenbaum who were big VC fanboys and who bungled that whole search.

The pieces we got for VC helped clear up the cap room BC used to get Parker, Garbo, and Rasho and turn us around. Also the great value on the Bonner signing along with EWill were the trade bait that landed Rasho (a move began by Babcock by the way). And we will never know what Babs may have got for Mourning because Peddie took that deal over and negotiated a buyout right away while Babs was ready to play hardball, knowing Zo badly wanted to go to Miami. We could have been sitting here with Dorrel Wright and an expiring for all we know had Peddie not interfered.

Same thing with the Rose deal. We had to give up a decent draft pick to move Rose's contract. Babs had declined that deal earlier because there was plenty of time til the deadline. Why rush to throw away that pick. But MLSE panicked and Embry jumped at the deal to clear the deck quckly for Colangelo coming in. Babs may have gotten that deal without the pick being wasted. He never had the chance.

And then another gutsy draft choice of Charlie V, a move I hated, turned into gold for Babs. That took balls to go off the board like that when much safer choices were available. Serious balls. And that pick gave BC huge trade bait as Charlie looked like a potential stat stuffer in year 1 and was being billed as a core piece by BC even.

He drafted hoffa on McCloskey's recommendation, without even seeing him workout. Again, 2 weeks notice, and the guy who gave him the job is making a hard push for Hoffa. What would you do? That's a hard spot to be in.


BC walks into the Nirvana of GM positions. Had 5+ months to prepare for the draft and analyze the team in-season. Had BIG capspace we had been waiting on for years, and the first pick in the draft. Could not ask for more.

Did he find a stud in free agency or trade with his capspace and pick? Nope. Just some solid vets, most unproven in the nba. The big trades all involved expiring contracts or talent brought in by Babs. His number one pick looks like a potential bust larger than Kwame Brown, and I was the biggest 'draft Bargnani' guy here for years before.

BC's genius has us with an all-Babcock PG rotation, and Babcock's head coach running the show. Meanwhile Garbo is a total bust now (injuries counted for GG and RB so no way does BC get a pass), his big TJ Ford acquisition has been undone (for yet another injury risk player) and we have ZERO young prospects outside of Bargs. He paid a fortune for Kapono who had a horrible year, and now this year we don't have ANY money to upgrade the wing or even keep our most well-rounded wing player Delfino (more wasted picks). And there are tons of nice wings available in FA this year.

The situations these GM's walked into were completely opposite. It would be almost impossible to not show a major improvement BC's first year with all the ammo he had to use and several EAST teams imploding badly. Babs did the hard work to make it that much easier but never got the chance to show us what he would have done. We could be in a much better situation moving forward had Babs stayed.


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## NeoSamurai

Reserve judgement until game 42 to 82 and into the playoffs and see how this team gels with JO and Calderon along with guys like Kapono getting significant minutes. 

Until then, BC is still good in my books.

Our problem last year was that we had too many role players, not enough star power. JO may not be the most attractive name out there, but when healthy hes one of the best bigs in the league. If he can deliver that type of ability here and be able to play in the playoffs, we should be alright and make another step inwards into the playoffs. If not, then we wait another 2 years and see what developments we can make with our roster but even then we have a lot of flexibilitiy in terms of salary and potentially lotto picks...


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## narrator

Bargnani's looking like a bust bigger than Kwame Brown? Puh-leeze! Brown's averaged double-digit points exactly ONCE in his career and never averaged double-digit rebounds. For an inside player, that's awful. Bargnani has averaged double-digit points in both seasons though his rebounding is worse (and should, in point of face be better, at least 5 RPG, but that's just me). Please, save the hyperbole. Kwame Brown is a 12th man; Andrea Bargnani is a solid rotation player.

Now, should Colangelo have taken him 1st overall? Not with hindsight. But hindsight is 20/20. I'm not prepared to write Bargnani off yet. He's 22 years old, for Pete's sake! You can't be a bust at age 22 (unless you're Rafael Araujo, that is).

This whole debate over which GM is better is ridiculous. Putting the hirings into context makes some sense but the fact of the matter is that Babcock was (a) supremely overwhelmed by the job; (b) not respected by anyone around the league; and (c) undermined by MLSE. But, because of Babcock's miserable tenure the Raptors were able to get Colangelo who (a) brought instant respect throughout the league; and (b) is taken seriously by every single personnel man/woman in the league. Okay, Babcock signed Calderon and drafted Villanueva. That's two points for him. But he drafted Araujo, Albert Miralles and traded for Pape Sow in 2004; Joey Graham (when Danny Granger was still on the board), Roko Ukic, and Uros Slokar in 2005; and, of course, made the awful Carter trade. Mitchell was a Babcock hire and he's proving that perhaps his Coach of the Year award was given to the wrong man. He needs serious help on the bench because he's tactically and defensively awful. With that said, Colangelo gave Mitchell far more to work with than Babcock ever did and he's proving to be a very up and down coach. Babcock's reign of terror was marked by indecision and poor decision-making. Someone brought up the Rose trade. Yes, it could be seen as waiting to drive up the price of Rose. It could also be seen as dithering and being unwilling to make a decision. Given his management style, I'm far more partial to the latter.

Colangelo, on the other hand, makes bold decisions. He moves decisively. I am not a fan of getting Jermaine O'Neal because I think he's overrated. But, in the context of the Raptors defense, it was a good move. Does Colangelo make mistakes? Of course. Is Bargnani the best player of his draft? Don't think so. Is he a solid rotation player? Yes, he is. Colangelo brought in Parker, Kapono, and Delfino at the minimum cost. He also traded Ford and bits plus the 17th pick in the draft for a proven (injury-prone) All-Star. Honestly, if it was anyone other than Jermaine O'Neal, I'd be doing cartwheels. Anytime you can trade some non-All-Stars plus a draft pick that will never be an All-Star for an All-Star, I say do it. Babcock wouldn't have made that deal; he would've sat on his hands.

Should we, as fans, have blind faith in a GM? Of course not. We pay our money so we get to say what we want. We can criticize and praise as the mood strikes. But only a fool believes that Colangelo is a worse GM than Babcock. Use all the context you want but the point is this: the Raptors have made the playoffs twice under Colangelo and zero times under Babcock. That's irrefutable. That, alone, makes Colangelo a better GM than Babcock.

I noticed that Babcock's Wikipedia entry emphasizes the idea that he was a fall guy and that he inherited the worst situation and therefore it's not all his fault. Was that entry, perhaps, edited by one of his apologists here?


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## SkywalkerAC

give me a break. take a look at the squad that we had with Babs (who was a fine whipping boy IMO) and look at the squad that we're taking into next season. we had a massive turnaround. we're well respected at every level of the organization. and BC has already won EOY.


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## SkywalkerAC

and don't forget that BC just signed Babcock's point guards to very reasonable deals (from what i understand). i'm a million times more comfortable with colangelo at the bargaining table.


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## osman

trick said:


> who's drooling over ukic? jawai? ppl are excited to see what they can do, not because they think they can be productive and already have them pegged as rotational nba players. for all we know they could be busts but i'm excited to see how any new raptor, first round or second round pick, free agent, acquired via trade will do. just like how i'm excited how hassan adams will do. i'm excited to see how jermaine will do. newest additions added to a lineup that's never donned this many big men before. excuse us for being excited over something new.
> 
> and what is portland's plan? build around oden and roy? what if oden turns out to be a prolonging injured player? what if roy and bayless can't work together? what if lamarcus wants his own team instead of having to defer to two other players? uh-oh, it's contract extension time, roy and lamarcus are asking for max, what about oden and bayless? rudy fernandez, travis outlaw, channing frye, joel pryzbilla. do you really think they can keep all these players once the huge contracts are going to be dished out? because i sure can't. (unless they all pull an extreme gilbert arenas offer and ask for 6 mil each which i don't see happening)
> 
> wanna hear a gameplan? stockpile on talent then trade them for proven stars. can't get the stars? keep stockpiling talent. lather, rinse, repeat until you have a championship team. because apparently in today's nba teams with disgruntled stars will trade them away for a good young piece, capsapce and prospects. what has bc done? taken a good young piece (ford), capspace (rasho+baston), and a prospect (hibbert) to acquire a former all-star and a key players on a 60-win team. will it pan out? who knows, but it's a risk worth taking IMO. it addresses 2 of the team's 3 biggest needs. if it completely backfires, guess what, suffer through it for one year then trade his expiring ***. oh wait, it does work? let's resign the whole bunch since it's proven there's a chance of winning with this core. you need to take risks like these and stopped hoping the draft picks will pan out, or else we'll become the los angeles clippers or the milwaukee bucks, or freefall like the bulls this past season.


I've read posts where people are putting great expectations on them, not that theres anything wrong with that, but second round picks don't amount to much.

You actually think we have a better plan that Portland? If Oden, Roy, and Aldrige are deserving of max contracts, I think they've done quite well for themselves. Plus they have an owner that is willing to spend and go over the tax limit to win.

If that is the Raptors game plan, why didn't they trade Bargs for proven talent as well, ex. Richard Jefferson, and try to win it all now? So the plan is to wait and see if someone becomes available in a trade? Great plan!!!


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## SkywalkerAC

osman said:


> I've read posts where people are putting great expectations on them, not that theres anything wrong with that, but second round picks don't amount to much.
> 
> You actually think we have a better plan that Portland? If Oden, Roy, and Aldrige are deserving of max contracts, I think they've done quite well for themselves. Plus they have an owner that is willing to spend and go over the tax limit to win.
> 
> If that is the Raptors game plan, why didn't they trade Bargs for proven talent as well, ex. Richard Jefferson, and try to win it all now? So the plan is to wait and see if someone becomes available in a trade? Great plan!!!


dude, portland is the most stacked team in the league, due to being bad for an extended period, lucking out in the draft, and some very shrewd moves. their acquisition of young talent over the last two years has been nothing short of remarkable. if you want this kind of "plan" you should have been ready to tank last season and this coming season.

is a guy like richard jefferson really the answer on the wing? bargnani is our 1st big off the bench - where do we get another 7 footer to play that role in our system? 

this is the plan: we're a two way team that will pick and roll you to death and kill you with the 3 ball. we're not loaded with young talent but we've still got great talent depth and even better roster balance. we've still got two rookies this year, despite trading away our draft pick, one of which will be an effective backup as a rook, the other has pretty solid big man potential. bc hasn't ****ed us over by "going for it" because he's setting up contracts to expire at his desired time. we've got the best shooting 1/2/3 combo in the league (assuming kapono at the 3) to give our elite 4/5 combo all the room they need. our bench is strong as well. what's to cry about?


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## Balzac

Delfino was a great pick up. I wish we could actually keep him. 

No doubt 2nd rounders could amount to something. But if you're a fan of percentages, you wouldn't count on it. When GMs trade their picks they always look at the board and their current standing to see if there's anyone they particularly like. Have you ever considered that he traded the picks because he wasn't high on the prospects?

I have not seen Ukic play besides for a few clips. Jawai I have not seen except for one clip. Hopefully these 2nd rounders will make an impact. However, even if they do become good players, it doesn't mean 2nd rounders have a lot of value. They really don't. A GM who is hesitant to trade 2 2nd rounders for a legitimate NBA player who can help the team is a bad GM.


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## charlz

lucky777s said:


> People just refuse to look at the situations both GM's inherited.
> 
> BC walks into the Nirvana of GM positions. Had 5+ months to prepare for the draft and analyze the team in-season. Had BIG capspace we had been waiting on for years, and the first pick in the draft. Could not ask for more.


EXACTLY! Thank you I could not have said it better myself.:clap:


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## charlz

Balzac said:


> Bryan Colangelo is a great GM. He makes a lot of moves, and he makes mistakes. But he strives to get value and accumulate assets. Our cap situation is looking great...



assetts? what bright young prospects/ draft picks are there?

cap situation is great? they don't have enough money to sign delfino's modest contract - once they ink Jawi and Ukic.


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## osman

SkywalkerAC said:


> dude, portland is the most stacked team in the league, due to being bad for an extended period, lucking out in the draft, and some very shrewd moves. their acquisition of young talent over the last two years has been nothing short of remarkable. if you want this kind of "plan" you should have been ready to tank last season and this coming season.
> 
> is a guy like richard jefferson really the answer on the wing? bargnani is our 1st big off the bench - where do we get another 7 footer to play that role in our system?
> 
> this is the plan: we're a two way team that will pick and roll you to death and kill you with the 3 ball. we're not loaded with young talent but we've still got great talent depth and even better roster balance. we've still got two rookies this year, despite trading away our draft pick, one of which will be an effective backup as a rook, the other has pretty solid big man potential. bc hasn't ****ed us over by "going for it" because he's setting up contracts to expire at his desired time. we've got the best shooting 1/2/3 combo in the league (assuming kapono at the 3) to give our elite 4/5 combo all the room they need. our bench is strong as well. what's to cry about?


If not RJ than someone else, we should trade Bargs and try to win it all now. As for our 1/2/3 combo? Best in the league at shooting? Yes if games were decided on three point shooting contests, then we would win. 

What about defense? passing? rebouding? attacking the hoop? We are no where near the top in any of those categories at the 2/3. I really do hope JO pans out, but I wouldn't bank on it. Our bench is pretty weak, Ukic and Jawai are unproven, so that leaves Moon and Bargs?

Again, I still prefer BC over Babcock, but he is far from great.


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## Balzac

Calderon, Bosh, Bargnani are all young players. Our cap situation is great because we have our main players locked into long term deals, with JO coming off the books in 2 years (meaning he will have a massive expiring contract next year). None of our players are grossly overpaid (except for JO, whose contract we inherited). I would definitely classify this as good cap management.

Why are you all so quick to dismiss Bargnani? He had a really good rookie season. This 3rd year will tell us what kind of player he'll become.

BC has put us in a situation to do massive damage in the east this upcoming season.


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## osman

Balzac said:


> Calderon, Bosh, Bargnani are all young players. Our cap situation is great because we have our main players locked into long term deals, with JO coming off the books in 2 years (meaning he will have a massive expiring contract next year). None of our players are grossly overpaid (except for JO, whose contract we inherited). I would definitely classify this as good cap management.
> 
> Why are you all so quick to dismiss Bargnani? He had a really good rookie season. This 3rd year will tell us what kind of player he'll become.
> 
> BC has put us in a situation to do massive damage in the east this upcoming season.


Bosh and Oneal have the same number of years, I doubt Bosh picks up his option. We could potentially lose him as lots of teams are clearing cap room for 2010. Bosh, and Jose are developed, Oneal is up there in age. 

We should go all out and try to win something now like Boston did, you either rebuild, or go all out, we're in between. Bargs is our only decent asset, I would've traded him for RJ, but we just don't have any other salaries to match up.


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## lucky777s

Year	TeamG	GS MPG FG%	3P% FT% OFF	DEF	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG TO PF PPG
06-07	TOR	65	2	25.1	0.427	0.373	0.824	0.8	3.1	3.9	0.8	0.5	0.8	1.65	2.80	11.6
07-08	TOR	78	53	23.9	0.386	0.345	0.840	0.6	3.1	3.7	1.1	0.3	0.5	1.13	2.70	10.2


It FELT like he had a great rookie season but when you look back at the stats they are remarkably consistent. And just bad.

He had a slow start as a rook, and picked it up big time near the end of the year, but maybe the averages for year 1 were more telling than we thought. Two years of nearly identical production feels like a real trend.

The awkward finishes on drives and the weak inside finishes may never improve. MoP never improved his body control on drives.

I know Sam forced him into a strange new role at C, but that sounds like excuse making.

Another year with similar stats and that may be all we can ever expect. We need to see significant improvement this year in FG%, rebounding, and FT attempts. A guy with his skill set should be getting fouled by slower C's more often outside, and by smaller SF/PF's inside.


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## toprofx

i agree with osman, theres no way we get bron or anything of the ilk. this is the first time in 2 yrs i've begun to question bc. lets just hope the jo move is indeed the right one(if he is healthy) and he fires smitch. if those 2 things happen, heck, just the last one....fire smitch....i'll be happy


----------



## firstrounder

People are quick to point out that it was Babcock who drafted Calderon, and got Smitch, etc. and then throw that against BC

Well I think the fact that BC didnt overreact right away and can Smitch, and kept Calderon and gave him a chance even after a garbage first year that he had under Babs (2005-06) shows something.

He could have just rebuilt completely, but the fact that he didnt completely blow up the team and hire a new coach like most new GM's would in a rebuilding phase shows something.

I am so glad that BC doesnt let his ego get in the way (unlike another Toronto GM I have in mind: JP Ricciardi)

For example, if BC were like JP he would have kept TJ (who HE traded for) and dumped Calderon. Also he wouldnt have kept Smitch.


----------



## trick

charlz said:


> assetts? what bright young prospects/ draft picks are there?
> 
> cap situation is great? they don't have enough money to sign delfino's modest contract - once they ink Jawi and Ukic.


suddenly resigning delfino is that important to you? 

and it sucks that we're building around calderon/bosh. 2 worn out old fogies who can't lead a team anywhere. and that bargnani guy, man does he ever stink. let's just trade him for trash now since i can't stand to see his face with a raptors jersey anymore.

and for the people who think by not getting bron in 2010 the capspace will all have been a waste of assets...


----------



## Balzac

Bargnani was WAY better in his rookie season than last season. Just look at fg%. I'm not saying for sure he will be a lot better this year. It's also possible that he'll play his way out of the league in a few years. I just think it's really early to write him off. People are (or were) high on Bargnani not because of his 10ppg. It's because of how good he could be when his game is on. People are banking on him gaining consistency. If our #1 pick gives you 10 points per game consistently with no flashes of greatness, then I'd be much more worried. We all know Bargnani has potential. We also know he's nowhere near fulfilling it. There are major concerns with his game which, if not addressed, will make him a bust.

I just think you have to give the kid at least a 3rd year to show his stuff.


----------



## MjM2xtreMe

seifer0406 said:


> *at least Colangelo isn't afraid of making changes*. Babcock never did anything other than that horrendous BC trade. Calderon was a great find, but that and drafting CV were the only bright spots of his time here.
> 
> Some people praise Babcock for unloading VC's contract. But to be honest for a player of VC's caliber if the Raptors were looking for expiring contracts that should be the least we should get. People also say that VC was traded for crap because of him tanking games, but for it to get to that point Babcock had a large part to do with it.
> 
> And as for Smitch, remember he was voted the worst coach in the NBA when he was working for Babcock? You can't really say that he was a "Babcock find" as if he would've become the coach he is today without Colangelo sorting of the team.


Babcock had to get the approval from Dick Peddie for transactions being made while BC doesn't.


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## toprofx

i think everyone is getting a little off topic here. You can't really compare babs and bc, there simply is no comparison. Situation accounted for and all, you have to ask yourself, if you let babs go on his course, would he have taken us to the playoffs and first in the atlantic? Babs may not have gone to europe and got two much needed guys that helped us immensely into the playoffs. I mean at the end of the day, you just have to ask urself, if you were hiring right now, who would u hire? or would u replace bc for babs? that should make ur decision real easy.....

plus, i think sam mitchell really messed up last year and not so much bc. bargs hasn't been playing up to the #1 pick and we should all accept that he will never be dirk, but he will be a good player. for a young player, its all about confidence. he doesn't have any, and thats cuz smitch will yank him at any given time. makes him play a brand new position, that he obviously doesn't have the skill to play. 

as for comparing port and toronto, you just can't...they had good draft picks cuz they sucked for a very long time. we couldve done the same, then fans would be all over that too. that's what happens when u have a team that makes the 1st rd of the playoffs, u become a tweener. not rebuilding, not gonna win a championship. I actually like this move of trading for JO, think about it this way, are we better with JO or last yrs team??? Remember folks, we couldn't rebound for **** last yr, we had no interior D and moon had to pick up the slack on that department making him an offensive liability. With JO, we can keep moon from starting and utilize kapono better. I mean at this point, its a wait and see....but i'll say this much, i'm much more excited about this season than any season with babs....

FIRE SAM MITCHELL


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## charlz

toprofx said:


> plus, i think sam mitchell really messed up last year and not so much bc. bargs hasn't been playing up to the #1 pick and we should all accept that he will never be dirk, but he will be a good player. for a young player, its all about confidence. he doesn't have any, and thats cuz smitch will yank him at any given time. makes him play a brand new position, that he obviously doesn't have the skill to play.


I on the other hand felt they gave Bargs too much leeway and ran way to many plays for him considering how low his fgp was. Rasho was giving the Raps way more and yet they kept ramming bargs down our throat. That kid is lost - basic defensive assignments were missed / zero and I mean zero attempt on box out / and piss poor shooting. 

If I am Chris bosh or someone playing along side that type of impotence I am wanting bargs yanked.

Blaming smitch for Bargs horrible 38% from the field and 4 rebounds per game is totally unfair.


----------



## lucky777s

Somehow, every one of us here forgot about that other huge FA signing BC made with all that glorious cap space his first summer. 

Fred Jones, our starting SG.


> “Fred Jones addresses our goal of infusing even more talent and athleticism to our revamped team,” said Bryan Colangelo, president and general manager of the Raptors. “He will benefit greatly from the up-tempo style we intend to play


Ah, yes, the uptempo style. I remember it well. Quite a success. Can't wait to see how well he uses the JO cap space in 2 years when he has to fill every spot other than starting PG and PF.


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## SkywalkerAC

Andrea usually boxed out ok. that was his only saving grace as a rebounder - doing a slightly less than miserable job of keeping his defender from getting the offensive board.

back on topic - does this not look like the best team we've had? it might not be in relation to the rest of the league, as there are so many strong teams but i'd take this team over any of VC's teams, heading into the season.


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## SkywalkerAC

lucky777s said:


> Somehow, every one of us here forgot about that other huge FA signing BC made with all that glorious cap space his first summer.
> 
> Fred Jones, our starting SG.
> 
> 
> Ah, yes, the uptempo style. I remember it well. Quite a success. Can't wait to see how well he uses the JO cap space in 2 years when he has to fill every spot other than starting PG and PF.


care to remind me how much cap space we actually had? what was it, like 7.5 million or something?


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## lucky777s

My recollection is that it was about 12.5 mill or so, which jibes pretty well with:
Parker 4
Garbo 4
Rasho at least 3 we absorbed in that trade (Bonner and EWill just over 6 mill)
FredJones another 3 or was it more. (note: 3yrs 9.9 mill according to Doug Smith, so that is 3, 3.3, 3.6)

That is 14 mill in 'signings' that summer. Not an impact player in the bunch. Filled holes to make us mediocre.


http://nbagmfixit.vsport.tv/2006/06/23/10-toronto-raptors/
This link puts us at about *15 or 16 mill *that summer which is closer to the truth given the above signings. Remember we offered Salmons way more than Jones.

So, he had about double the 7.5 you mention Sky. That change your opinion at all? I imagine not,and await the inevitable excuses for blowing a rare opportunity with max money cap space. Plus the first pick in the draft and a very valuable trade assets in Bonner, CharlieV and even Graham had not been devalued completely by Sam yet.

We got 2 good Euro players who were completely unproven in the nba and could have been busts.
We got a mediocre SG, that could not shoot at all, in FJ.
And a very serviceable C in Rasho.
And of course the #1 pick on a player seemingly not worthy of it.


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## SkywalkerAC

and still managed the biggest turnaround in the nba that year, with bc's moves being good enough to earn him EOY. 

i really can't remember other free agents that summer and i don't remember being particularly interested in anyone but i know we needed depth, a center, and to regain respectability and BC gave us all those things. 

AP has been a fantastic signing. Garbo for 4 mill would have been a very solid signing. the Nesterovic trade was amazing for us.

sure, maybe they were stopgap moves but they got us back in the playoffs and now we're left with an even stronger team. 

what's to cry about? who should have we signed?


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## SkywalkerAC

i mean, salmons walked away from us. we weren't exactly too high on your typical free agent's wish list after the babcock era.


----------



## ballocks

i think lucky's first post made several terrific points. if people really want an objective view on how colangelo has fared to date, it's all in there (imo).

but while i agree with almost everything, i do believe babcock had to go- if only for the fact that he was getting a lot of negative press (deserved or not) and the negative energy that followed the team was crippling.

many of colangelo's moves have been impatient, imo, and have lacked clear foresight, but the one thing he has- still- is his reputation. and so the team still believes in him. heck, the media still believes in him. the fans certainly do. that faith in itself has value, and i don't think it would've ever come with rob babcock. unfortunately, that's often what separates good managers from mediocre ones: perception.

but i am sincerely disappointed with the fact that we are capped out at the brink of the tax already, and are for that reason going to pass on luring a free agent of maggette's calibre for the mle. that's a sign of poor management, imo. and it's not like our payroll's fixed at this level below the tax, either- bosh's salary will be growing 12.5% every year, bargnani's is growing, calderon's is like bosh's and jermaine's 09/10 will be 2+ million more than it is even this year. so not only will the team have to resist using the mid-level now, they're so close to the tax that they'll have to waste limited assets in clearing salary over the next two years to remain below it. that may in the end cause us to lose parker or jamario or whoever else next year *for nothing* (like delfino this year).

i do not like losing players for nothing. this team is simply not good enough for that. it's something that should've been avoided and should not have come as a surprise. but apparently it did.

peace


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## charlz

SkywalkerAC said:


> back on topic - does this not look like the best team we've had? it might not be in relation to the rest of the league, as there are so many strong teams but i'd take this team over any of VC's teams, heading into the season.



Alvin
VC
Christie
Oak/ keon clark
Davis

we way better defensively/ rebounding - too bad Butch lost his mind because he had the right brand of basketball down pat. He was the best of Smitch/ko.


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## holt_81

Hey lucky777s. Remember me from the Fanhome boards? We had some good threads back in the day. Just to let you know, my objections to Babcock's picks have now had a little time to simmer - Iguodala (Hoffa), Bynum (Charlie V), Granger (Graham). Calderon, Iggy, Granger, Bosh, Bynum?

As I disagreed with you then, I think it's been shown that Babcock was far from servicable as a GM. But you are spot on here in your contrast vs. Colangelo. It is undeniable that BC is smarter and more respected. However, this fact drives me crazy as nearly all of his moves have been futile since he joined the Raptors! I would imagine there are people here who agree with me though I'm not afraid to go it alone again. From his first decisions on the job, I have felt that ruining the Raptors for 5+ years is very likely (I don't value one and dones). Babcock, as he tended to do, failed miserably in crushing our championship dreams as we luckily won the draft lottery!

There are a small number of events that define an NBA GM's performance, and are often largely based on luck and timing. However, there are certain keys which I'm sure people are aware of but may forget at some point which is why they will ignore the pile of evidence and and defend the current GM until it forms a mountain.

1) Obtain building blocks: Any contending team without LeBron needs 2 all-stars or 3+ near all-stars. Success is largely based upon this, which is why one must...
2) Draft opportunistically while balancing short and long-term needs: In almost every draft, there is a player who drops further than he should have. Especially if that player fits a need, find a way to pull the trigger. Never be afraid to build depth at the 2/3 (interchangable) and 4/5 - there are always minutes available.
3) Make sure to maintain cap flexibity until the team is in position to contend: or lose your opportunity to contend/handicap it for the foreseeable future.

Colangelo has failed at his job so far because:

1) He has obtained zero building blocks. CB4 and Calderon are the only players on the Raptors which any team covets, no matter how many "inquire" about AB. 

2) He has drafted poorly. With the first pick of a very good (not legendary) draft (no Mike Miller ROY year), he Darko'd. This pick was a failure on multiple fronts as it also failed to address our key weaknesses of defense and rebounding and perimeter skill (in order to draft a taller Donyell Marshall with better ball handling but less toughness, rebounding, inside scoring and 3 point shooting). I can only accept this draft pick under non-competitive reasons understanding the marketing value of Bargnani to the Raptors. My guy was Aldridge - who is TBD for the time being (not a great rebounder or shot blocker but effective and improving). Another failure without a first round pick - letting CDR slip away - the type exact player we need (being reasonable here) and Delfino's replacement.

3) He has repeatedly traded players with attractive contracts for players with unattractive contracts. Bonner and Eric Williams for 3 years of Rasho. Expiring Rasho and TJ Ford for Jermaine O'Neal's mammoth contract. Though TJ has never been a player I enjoy (he is the consumate PG on a bad team or good 4th best player - Tony Parker lite) and combined with Rasho's expiring contract should not have been used to acquire an even larger contract in Jermaine O'Neal. We were barely able to put enough salary into the deal to make it work, yet bought out Garbajosa (4.5m) days earlier. Kapono (though I like him and feel he is misused) is another cap transgression.

From this standpoint, he has done nothing to enhance the Raptors into the long-term nor acquired the prospects or cap space necessary to build the roster in the short/medium term. We are what we are, and no more assets remain in the cupboard barring a steal of a deal.

-------------------------------------------------------
To emphasize my points, we can look at Danny Ainge and Mitch Kupchak who were (undeservedly) known as 1c and 1d to Isiah and McHale.

With Danny Ainge, his teams were consistently bad, but if you look at them - he had acquired some good young pieces in Perkins, Jefferson, Green, West, Gomes, Allen, Rondo, and I'm probably forgetting someone. He just hadn't found the right chance to deal his excess depth of youth for higher quality. Well, this is where timing and luck play a role as he snagged KG and Ray in the same offseason in the offseason. Rondo was a bona-fide steal (who I underestimated) and possibly more important to the Celts than Ray Allen which speaks to the importance of the draft in the mid to late first round.

Mitch Kupchak had Kobe Bryant and Lamar Odom. In a stacked West, that was not good enough for years. But he drafted and drafted, bringing in Jordan Farmar and Andrew Bynum in particular through the draft - taking the risk the Raptors wouldn't on the youngest NBA player ever (17 year olds are allowed to be pudgy). He also dealt for Trevor Ariza this past year, who again, the Raptors could use. A gift from the Grizz put them in the position to become a dynasty (had they won this year, it still may happen). They traded young prospects (which we don't have) and Kwame Brown for Gasol, a bad trade yes, but one the Raptors could not have possibly matched. There is something to be said for stockpiling and biding your time. Remember when he was soundly bashed for not dealing Bynum for Kidd? Kupchak single-handedly destroyed one of the West's biggest powers by NOT trading!

Through the tough times, even with Bill Simmons' best bashing, I never saw totally incompetent GMs. Sure their draft picks hadn't set the world on fire, but they had managed to find legitimate NBA players. Their quick reversals of fortune are something that all GMs should understand. It's simple: put yourself into a position to succeed and don't sell your team or city short.
-------------------------------------------------------

As I said before, he ignored defense and rebounding, but also athleticism. Knowing that you have CB4 and his game, what is the type of player you need beside him to be truly formidable? A Marcus Camby or Tyson Chandler type. Who did we get to start? Rasho (he played well last year, would not mind him in a backup role). Who started at SF for us? Garbajosa (the reason we sucked this year, NOT). Someone joked that Candace Parker has more highlight reel dunks than Anthony Parker. Inaccurate, but not entirely untrue.

I apologize for my lack of focus when Colangelo's acquisitions fail on so many fronts. His European agenda pervaded many of his early acquisitions and eventually hampered the team. They paid off in his first year with a division title in the league's worst. We were not ready to contend and this resulted in us giving up a lottery protected draft pick (iirc) that we needed to further build the roster. Now, Rasho, Garbs are gone, AP has been rumored to be leaving. Was the division title worth leaving us with nothing in 3 years (now) instead of giving Joey Graham (for example) playing time to develop into a rotation player?

I have long felt that the Raptors' success has been built on smoke and mirrors - regular season ball, not playoff basketball. There are many ways to win, but they still involve defending, rebounding and scoring effectively in the half-court if you aren't stacked with freaks like Phoenix. Colangelo has been wasteful and bloated the payroll unnecessarily and has now found himself capped out. Do not waste cap space on role players! That is what the MLE is for.

So aside from the Araujo/Humphries deal (which was quite lucky). Colangelo's best move was trading Charlie V for TJ Ford but hasn't exactly worked out as he planned. CV has proven to be what I thought he was after a moderately intense rookie season - soft, unmotivated, and a player of losing basketball. He was a waste of a first round pick and will be a career bench player. For all of his faults, TJ was and is clearly better than CV. As for Ford - aside from the attitude problems which I was unaware of at the time, I dislike his size (Tony Parker is slightly slower but taller and more effective), defense, passing or lack thereof save Bosh, and lack of 3 point range. In general, I don't want a point guard who needs to drive to the basket to be effective. It ruins floor spacing as defenders sag, and court balance for transition defense. Ford's size, shooting, selfishness were all there when BC made the trade as well as the injury history. It was doomed from the start.

I'm tired, I have more thoughts but I'm rambling and this post is long enough already. My last thoughts - the Colangelo family is overrated, the Raptors need a better GM or to beat some sense into our current one starting now, and CB4 may not be here for much longer.


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## SkywalkerAC

no. i'm sorry. bc has added value with every move and has timed his contracts wisely. sure he's had his stopgaps but he's already moved beyond each of them (aside from AP). sure we're close to the cap but we're not so far from contention either. 

bc is rolling the dice knowing that it's not difficult nor particularly expensive to add the right kinds of roll players around Bosh and JO. in fact, it seems like he already has them. he has his point guards signed up, he's got his 3 young bench bigs, he's got an underrated wing rotation consisting of shooters/defenders. and he's got one more player to add. 

we've got a top 4 (?) frontcourt and one of the most efficient point guards in the league. we're a two way team with above average rebounding. 

i've been following the raps for a long time and this is the best we've ever been as a franchise, at every level. BC is going to take a run at the title and we're going to need a lot of work and luck to get there and i'm still giddy that he's the guy at the steering wheel. 

he's got one more player to add and then we'll have to sit back and watch how it unfolds. this is a monumental year for BC in toronto. if his JO/Bargnani experiments pan out, the Raps will be one of the best teams in the league. if they don't, you look like an ***, reload through the draft, and start planning for 2010. 

i'm comfortable with that. hey, i wanted to lose our draft pick like i wanted a hole in the head but we don't have a lot of room for more rookies or their rookie scale salaries (i'm quite content with our two second rounder thank you).

did Colangelo have nothing to do with Calderon never considering signing elsewhere and taking a reasonable contract? how about ukic? might he still sign delfino to such a deal? 

it is not the easiest task to turn around an NBA franchise and it hasn't been all roses for BC but he's gone about it like a professional, certainly one of the best in the business, and i'm happy to have him.


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## lucky777s

One quick note about the Babcock drafts. The first year #8, I was SURE that Ben Gordon or Devin Harris (my first choice) would fall to us at 8. But there was so much movement ahead of us they were gone. We were going to draft a PG or a C, no question. This draft was a minefield. Starting with us at 8 it went Bad pick, Good pick, Bad, Good(?), Bad, Bad, Bad, Good, Bad, Good That is 6 bad picks and 4 good in the next 10. Not great odds. Be nice to have taken Iggy, Kevin Martin, Al Jefferson, or Josh Smith but we just as easily could have taken Luke Jackson, Kirk Snyder, Hump, Telfair, Dorrel Wright, Robert Swift. Who knows how the Raptor staff had guys ranked.

The second draft Charlie/Graham were solid picks. I wanted Bynum/Green 2 high school players with huge upside. If one of them came through we would have a star. Turns out Bynum may have been the star and Green the bust. Although Green is a good shooter. Celt's did not use him as a slasher at all. Gutsy pick by Babs to go off the board with Charlie. 'Experts' slammed the pick and it turned to gold. Can't argue with Joey at 17.

Babs reluctance to take young HS talent in the draft is what bothered me about him. But he knew the MLSE board had very little faith in him and he had only a short time to turn it around. So he went with mature players. The Hoffa draft was all McCloskey, but it was a sensible pick given Babs knew he had Rafer Alston lined up at PG. Filled both holes. Rafer, by the way was fine in MIA and has been fine in HOU so you have to wonder why Sam could not handle him. And then Babs turned Rafer into a short contract MikeJames which was a great trade and helped clear more cap space for BC.


----------



## lucky777s

Babs had two big things going against him from day one:

1) He was not media savvy at all coming from small market MIN. Media staff at MLSE suck and did not support him.
2) MLSE was never really sold on him and had zero faith in him, which is why he had to bring Embry and English in with him so MLSE could win the press conference again with big names. This is why he got micro-managed by Peddie.

Peddie bungled the search by trying a 'cattle call' approach that pissed off all the experienced GM's. Those guys have to be wooed/courted. You don't say "come in for an interview with 10 other guys and we will let you know". Why would they risk embarassment like that when they have a good job? They would not. McCloskey wanted Babs from day 1 of GG being fired. That would have given Babs some time to prepare for the draft and FA.

Was there a 'search' when Colangelo was available? No. He would never be part of that kind of process. We should have made a big offer to Donnie Walsh before interviewing guys like Babs. Word was he was ready to leave IND back then.


----------



## shookem

how do you know MLSE's media staff suck?


----------



## charlz

lucky777s said:


> Babs had two big things going against him from day one:
> 
> 1) He was not media savvy at all coming from small market MIN. Media staff at MLSE suck and did not support him.
> 2) MLSE was never really sold on him and had zero faith in him, which is why he had to bring Embry and English in with him so MLSE could win the press conference again with big names. This is why he got micro-managed by Peddie.


the bottom line is 75% of BC's success is because of the things that were here in place when got here:
- Bosh
- Calderon
- Smitch
- Prospects (ukic/draftpicks)

Most of what BC has done has been poorly done -> to terrible - 
- barg
- fred jones
- TJ
- Kapono
- Maceo
- the whole debacle with Jorge and Spain lawsuit almost cost them Calderon.

Moon is a jim Kelly find nourished by Sam Mitchell - I am not willing to give BC any credit there.

The best of BC:
-Rasho for Eric Williams/Bonner
-dumping Jones for Dixon (his own mistake)
-Anthony Parker/Garbo but I think those are Mauricio's finds.

Who did Aaron Williams for 2 second round draft picks? was that BC or Babs?... I like that one too.


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## lucky777s

The Rasho trade was first engineered by Babcock. Spurs were not ready to part with him and Nazr yet. But that was a MIN connection with Rasho. And of course the 2 pieces used were Babcock's. Nice signing he made for Bonner.

Imagine if Babs had the Garbo thing happen on his watch? He would be massacred by the press and fans. Just torn apart.


----------



## ballocks

i'm dying to see tomorrow's presser. i can't imagine bryan colangelo is a happy camper- i want to see if he can truly view his work in a positive light. i mean, this is it: we have made our push for the now, we have virtually nothing left in the vault, no flexibility to do anything else save for kapono and/or jamario, and yet all we got was one jermaine o'neal. it's hard to believe. the boston celtics managed to turn their bottom-feeder assets into kevin garnett and ray allen; we're a playoff team, and yet all we could score for delfino, rasho, tj, garbajosa, 1st rd'er, future 2nds and all our space under the tax level was... jermaine o'neal, a star who hasn't been a star in five years.

i'm not really frustrated anymore so much as i'm amused. he must know something we don't.

peace


----------



## Balzac

How is the CV for TJ trade bad? He got rid of one overrated rookie for a solid starting point guard, who we swapped for JO. Fred Jones actually played well when he was given big minutes when injures forced him to play. I know most of you won't remember, but he actually helped the team immensely when he was given the opportunity. 

Kapono is a great signing. The problem with him is that Sam Mitchell has no idea how to run a play for him. Nothing to do with Colangelo. And speaking of assets, believe me when I say that Kapono, if we were to trade him, will garner much interest from the league.

You say that "the bottom line is 75% of BC's success is because of the things that were here in place when got here", but how exactly do you attribute percentages to the roster? Bosh equals 43% of our success? Calderon 20%? You praise Babcock for his moves (and his team sucking which in turn gave us draft picks), but you discredit Colangelo for moves as being others'? How would you know those facts? 

We had one of the worst benches in the league when Colangelo took over. And that roster was definitely Babcock's. Barrett, Graham, Sow, E. Williams, A. Williams, Martin, Woods, Hoffa, Bonner, Calderon, Davis. Our best bench player that season was MATT BONNER. Remember all that talk of moving Calderon when Colangelo took over? Calderon didn't have a very good rookie season, but fortunately Colangelo didn't make a reactionary move.

I agree that Colangelo is not living up to his genius reputation people have of him. But he's so much better than Babcock, who was a terrible GM. This team is in better shape than some of you are suggesting.


----------



## Myth

There's plenty of blame to go around when it comes to the Raptors Mis-management. First they gave up All-Star level talent for virtually nothing:

1.Trading Camby for Oakly -a player who would retire 3 years later and leave Toronto with nothing to show for the second over all pick in one of the best draft years of all time.

2. Trading T-Mac for vertually nothing. The Raptor's brass misread T-Mac's intent to bolt as a free agent and held on to him instead of trading him at the trade deadline. That blunder forced them to take whatever Olando would give them in a sign a trade. Even is this they were unlucky. Orlando trade Ben Wallace & Chucky Atkins to Detroit in a sign a trade for Grant Hill which left the cupboard bare for the Raps.

3. Trading Vince Carter for less than nothing -- they had to pay Zo not to show up and took on contracts of useless bench player Eric and Arron Williams.

Second they overpaid for marginal talent: Signing Junkyard Dog, Alvin Willams, Antonio Davis and Alawan to mega contracts

Third they wasted draft picks: ie. drafting Rafael Araujo(instead of Andre Iguodala, Andris Biedrins, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith, Kevin Martin) , Alek Redojevi (instead of Ron Artest, AK#47, Corey Maggette) Michael Bradley ( instead of Gilbert Arenas,Zach Randolph,Gerald Wallace, Samuel Dalembert, Tony Parker) and Joey Gramham (instead of Danny Granger or David Lee)

But despite all of this the Raptors still had a great opportunity to win a championship and blew it. They were one player away from pulling it off. It was the summer that T-Mac was a free agent. There was another free agent whom if the Raptors had convince to sign with Toronto along with T-Mac would have help deliver a champions. Toronto's Starting line would have been:
PG Alvin Williams (before he was given a 7 year contract)
SG Vince Carter (still on his rookie contract)
SF T-Mac (freshly sign to a max deal)
PF Antonio Davis (before the raptors paid him $12 million per season)
C Tim Duncan (whom if the raptors had convince to sign would have delivered a championship vs the Lakers)

Bench: Del Curry, Charles Oakley, Kevin Willis, Muggs Boggs


----------



## holt_81

Balzac said:


> How is the CV for TJ trade bad? He got rid of one overrated rookie for a solid starting point guard, who we swapped for JO. Fred Jones actually played well when he was given big minutes when injures forced him to play. I know most of you won't remember, but he actually helped the team immensely when he was given the opportunity.
> 
> Kapono is a great signing. The problem with him is that Sam Mitchell has no idea how to run a play for him. Nothing to do with Colangelo. And speaking of assets, believe me when I say that Kapono, if we were to trade him, will garner much interest from the league.
> 
> You say that "the bottom line is 75% of BC's success is because of the things that were here in place when got here", but how exactly do you attribute percentages to the roster? Bosh equals 43% of our success? Calderon 20%? You praise Babcock for his moves (and his team sucking which in turn gave us draft picks), but you discredit Colangelo for moves as being others'? How would you know those facts?
> 
> We had one of the worst benches in the league when Colangelo took over. And that roster was definitely Babcock's. Barrett, Graham, Sow, E. Williams, A. Williams, Martin, Woods, Hoffa, Bonner, Calderon, Davis. Our best bench player that season was MATT BONNER. Remember all that talk of moving Calderon when Colangelo took over? Calderon didn't have a very good rookie season, but fortunately Colangelo didn't make a reactionary move.
> 
> I agree that Colangelo is not living up to his genius reputation people have of him. But he's so much better than Babcock, who was a terrible GM. This team is in better shape than some of you are suggesting.


I would have done the CV/TJ trade again. For a guy with effort issues coming into the league, CV put in a decent rookie season offensively. However, one year of offensive success does not make an NBA starter. NBA starters are starters because they can defend their positions servicably, tweeners and combo guards come off the bench. Instead of developing himself into a strong rebounder and inside defensive presence, Charlie stated his admiration to be like Lamar Odom (instead of Antawn Jamison which was a better fit) and his preference for the outside game. He wasn't useful at SF and wasn't committed enough inside to back up at PF, or we could have kept him. Bargnani has proven himself to be a similar player stylewise to CV, which hasn't worked out very well for us.

Fred Jones is a short shooting guard who shoots 40% from the field and quite poorly from 3 point range. He has never been servicable in any respect. He's end of the bench roster filler.

Kapono was an interesting signing. However, you don't sign a 3 point specialist to a long-term, big money contract. Generally, those players receive short-term contracts worth about 3 million. Coming from Miami, he had a decent role in their offense. I was hoping we'd allow him to do something similar but it was quite the opposite. He could still fill a Voshon Lenard slot for us, a spot up shooter with the capability to take on the scoring load individually when called upon.

If you look at our roster and name the players that give you hope to be part of the Raptors core for the foreseeable future, these players come from the Babcock (Calderon)/Grunwald (Bosh) regimes. Ukic/Jawai are really unknowns at this point and a wash. Admittedly, Jermaine O'Neal will be crucial to our success. But is there really any managerial skill displayed in taking on a contract that nobody in the league wants a part of? People want to call it mutually beneficial, but from a contract/talent standpoint, TJ was much more tradable and valuable than O'Neal. BC seems to have a bad habit of trading managable contracts for longer and unattractive ones instead of reaping the flexibility of having less salary commitments.

As for your assertion that improving our bench was a success - Colangelo merely used the space we were UNDER THE CAP to sign players. Any average GM with cap space could sign average players and stick them beside CB4. A good one would have created a plan instead of handing out rather large contracts to low-impact complimentary players. The bunch of veterans he brought in had limited upside and their limited impact was felt mainly in year 1 - which we saw in our division title year. An average roster + CB4 = above average results. Replacing bad players with average is so much easier than replacing average with good players.

Lucky posted this earlier in the thread explaining how BC wasted our cap space for short-term gains (Embry traded a #1 pick to NY for this space). What a haul...



> My recollection is that it was about 12.5 mill or so, which jibes pretty well with:
> Parker 4
> Garbo 4
> Rasho at least 3 we absorbed in that trade (Bonner and EWill just over 6 mill)
> FredJones another 3 or was it more. (note: 3yrs 9.9 mill according to Doug Smith, so that is 3, 3.3, 3.6)
> 
> *That is 14 mill in 'signings' that summer. Not an impact player in the bunch. Filled holes to make us mediocre.*
> 
> 
> http://nbagmfixit.vsport.tv/2006/06/...ronto-raptors/
> This link puts us at about 15 or 16 mill that summer which is closer to the truth given the above signings. Remember we offered Salmons way more than Jones.


I disagree with you that Calderon had a bad rookie year. He definitely had an effective style of play at point guard that we hadn't seen after years of Alvin Williams. The difference with him now is that he has a much improved shot and NBA experience. But he was by no means lost on the court like most inexperienced PGs would be. The main things that got me were his willingness to pass, safe dribble, and his awareness/ability to drop the shoulder and drive for layups (Stockton-like). If he didn't learn to shoot, he would not be nearly the success that he has been. But there are plenty of backup PGs around the league that can't shoot particularly well (Jacque Vaughn comes to mind) - and Calderon even in his rookie year, displayed equal if not better awareness and ability to run an offense.

As much as I am anti-tanking, I am also against rushing a roster that isn't ready to compete. Colangelo made us competitive without the foundation to have continued success in the future (Bosh and Super PG is not a dangerous core). So we lost our non-lottery protected draft pick then instead of losing it this year. But I guess we have to remember that he expected Bargnani's development to spur us on in future years. I just wish we had a guy like Thaddeus Young on the roster now as we have a short supply of untapped potential.

Colangelo is just the latest in a long line of GMs that has repeatedly failed to maximize our roster and assets. Through non-optimal moves, he has limited our potential success to the undesired position of solidly above average (low playoff seed). It's why I harp on bad draft picks, they pull down the ceiling of the roster for the time being until the next draft (where a higher draft slot can help offset some of the damage caused to the team's maximum potential).


----------



## holt_81

Myth said:


> There's plenty of blame to go around when it comes to the Raptors Mis-management. First they gave up All-Star level talent for virtually nothing:
> 
> 1.Trading Camby for Oakly -a player who would retire 3 years later and leave Toronto with nothing to show for the second over all pick in one of the best draft years of all time.
> 
> 2. Trading T-Mac for vertually nothing. The Raptor's brass misread T-Mac's intent to bolt as a free agent and held on to him instead of trading him at the trade deadline. That blunder forced them to take whatever Olando would give them in a sign a trade. Even is this they were unlucky. Orlando trade Ben Wallace & Chucky Atkins to Detroit in a sign a trade for Grant Hill which left the cupboard bare for the Raps.
> 
> 3. Trading Vince Carter for less than nothing -- they had to pay Zo not to show up and took on contracts of useless bench player Eric and Arron Williams.
> 
> Second they overpaid for marginal talent: Signing Junkyard Dog, Alvin Willams, Antonio Davis and Alawan to mega contracts
> 
> Third they wasted draft picks: ie. drafting Rafael Araujo(instead of Andre Iguodala, Andris Biedrins, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith, Kevin Martin) , Alek Redojevi (instead of Ron Artest, AK#47, Corey Maggette) Michael Bradley ( instead of Gilbert Arenas,Zach Randolph,Gerald Wallace, Samuel Dalembert, Tony Parker) and Joey Gramham (instead of Danny Granger or David Lee)
> 
> But despite all of this the Raptors still had a great opportunity to win a championship and blew it. They were one player away from pulling it off. It was the summer that T-Mac was a free agent. There was another free agent whom if the Raptors had convince to sign with Toronto along with T-Mac would have help deliver a champions. Toronto's Starting line would have been:
> PG Alvin Williams (before he was given a 7 year contract)
> SG Vince Carter (still on his rookie contract)
> SF T-Mac (freshly sign to a max deal)
> PF Antonio Davis (before the raptors paid him $12 million per season)
> C Tim Duncan (whom if the raptors had convince to sign would have delivered a championship vs the Lakers)
> 
> Bench: Del Curry, Charles Oakley, Kevin Willis, Muggs Boggs


That's a hell of a what if, I don't think your assumptions work. If anything, T-Mac and Duncan would have happened in Orlando as T-Mac wanted to leave Toronto, Grant Hill signed with Orlando, and Duncan considered but resigned in SA. I don't think they had the cap space for all three, but even if we did sign T-Mac (big if), Orlando would have been directly in competition with Grant Hill as the draw. Coordinating efforts to stack teams is currently only newly popular in the NBA (Elton Brand isn't even doing it after all of that speculation), and Toronto was really not a popular FA destination at that time which is why we vastly overpaid all of Hakeem, AD, JYD, AW.


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## Balzac

That's a very good post, Holt.

First off, I AGREE with you on CV. I would do that trade again.

Secondly, you say that the core pieces of this squad are Babcock acquisitions. That's also correct. 

Thirdly, I absolutely do not like Fred Jones as a player. But despite my evaluation of him, he did play well when the team needed him. I remember thinking to myself, "why is he dropping 20?" I probably would've kept Jones instead of getting Dixon (if Jones wasn't whining). I dislike Dixon's game even more than Jones'.

But I disagree with you about Colangelo's moves regarding the bench. He took a chance on Garbo and Parker, and that move helped us into the playoffs. Now, you'd say that they were both starters. The fact is that, with those two in the lineup, the depth chart improved. Just because we were under the cap does not mean that his signings were unimpressive. Most GMs would've spent that cap on established NBA players. I do not think the return would've been as good as AP and Garbo. Clearly, Garbo was a short term solution. Even without his injury, I did not think he was going to be a very effective player down the road. Still, Colangelo used the cap space to get help, and we won a division title as a result.

Regardless of how we feel about Colangelo, this year will undoubtedly be the defining point of his tenure. Will Bargnani step up? Will Kapono be integrated into the offense? Will JO stay healthy? Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think we have a very good squad.


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## Myth

holt_81 said:


> That's a hell of a what if, I don't think your assumptions work. If anything, T-Mac and Duncan would have happened in Orlando as T-Mac wanted to leave Toronto, Grant Hill signed with Orlando, and Duncan considered but resigned in SA. I don't think they had the cap space for all three, but even if we did sign T-Mac (big if), Orlando would have been directly in competition with Grant Hill as the draw. Coordinating efforts to stack teams is currently only newly popular in the NBA (Elton Brand isn't even doing it after all of that speculation), and Toronto was really not a popular FA destination at that time which is why we vastly overpaid all of Hakeem, AD, JYD, AW.


Yeah Toronto wasn't even on the radar for Duncan and T-Mac wasn't feeling T.O. after the way he had been treated by Darrel Walker and other team brass, but that only strenghtens my case for mismanagement. Look at what Riley is able to do in Miami with trades and attracting free agents like Zo (who played for peanuts). Orlando had nothing in the way of a championship roster, is not a big market team and yet players like Grant Hill, T-Mac and Duncan were considering going there. Toronto was one player away and wasn't even a consideration. You think that would have happen if Riley was running the show here at the time?


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## lucky777s

Fred Jones was in a season long shooting slump for us, so I have no idea how anyone could call him effective for the Raps. He shot 38% from the field and 31% from 3pt. Beyond horrible. Couldn't throw it in the ocean. Didn't create anything for himself or others. Didn't rebound. He was useless.



> how do you know MLSE's media staff suck?


Let's just say I had some personal dealings with them and have first hand knowledge of how they think and communicate on key issues. And it was shocking. The attitude. The lack of planning. The lack of support for the GM and players when they clearly needed direction and guidance. The problem with these sports teams is that guys can start out as towel boys or ticket sellers in the minor leagues and somehow just end up filling vacant jobs they have no real understanding, training or skill for. Then that 'experience' lets them move up to the big leagues. They can handle the basic grunt tasks but that is about it.


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## shookem

i too have personal interaction with the communications staff at MLSE (on a near daily basis) and they are not nearly as bad as you describe them.

the organization was in cost saving mode when babcock was here, and staffing was effected. 

they aren't the best in the biz but to say they suck is a little extreme.


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## Mr_B

Colangelo bashing? lol I can't believe it , I'm just thankful that the team in the position its currently in I swear some of you guys would rather be the 35 win from years back your never happy


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## lucky777s

Most people here just want to build something that is either:

1) Sustainable for 5-7 year run
OR
2) Competes for the championship now, but with a short window of 2 years.

BC had done neither. We did not do the slow build approach that seems to be working very well for POR as they stockpile young assets. And we did not go the Celtic route in acquiring proven nba stars.
BC chose to use his HUGE cap space on unproven nba players from Europe who were nearer the end of their careers. That is short term fix and does not make us contenders for anything.

A better formula might be to get that second all-star with your cap room and then fill in around them with MLE and vets that see you are a true contender and come cheap. Instead we are capped out and have big questions at the wing and backup PG. BC was eager to throw away our first round pick because the salary would put us at or over the tax line.





> i too have personal interaction with the communications staff at MLSE (on a near daily basis) and they are not nearly as bad as you describe them.
> 
> the organization was in cost saving mode when babcock was here, and staffing was effected.
> 
> they aren't the best in the biz but to say they suck is a little extreme.


I am talking about the top level guys. And like I said they can handle the grunt work but the real value a communications professional should be adding is totally lacking. Nothing has really changed there since the GG days as Peddie and his boy Anselmi are more in charge of that area.


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## A_wildstabatanything

The CV/TJ trade was a huge mistake. BC was offered a top 5-7 pick in the 2006 draft for Charlie. We would of had our choice of Rudy Gay or Brandon Roy. I'd take both those players over TJ & now JO (when you factor in their age).


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## holt_81

I don't ever remember hearing about that, do you know what team offered it up? If so, that's even more depressing.


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## lucky777s

I don't recall hearing anything about that potential trade either. Would not surprise me as CV's stock was very high. But never even a whisper about that.


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## charlz

A_wildstabatanything said:


> The CV/TJ trade was a huge mistake. BC was offered a top 5-7 pick in the 2006 draft for Charlie. We would of had our choice of Rudy Gay or Brandon Roy. I'd take both those players over TJ & now JO (when you factor in their age).



Hind site is 20/20 but Can you imagine having Roy/Alderidge with Bosh Calderon (instead of O'Neal/Bargs) OMG! ... I also did not hear about that trade though.


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## lucky777s

Garbo getting calls from other nba teams? Here is translation of Spanish article:



> Marcos reveals that Garbajosa has an offer from the Lakers
> Jorge Garbajosa has doors open to initiate a second adventure in the NBA. Enter again in the best league in the world treading a red carpet like Hollywood. Precisely the team that is closer to the mecca of cinema is that more has shown interest in him. The daily mark the Lakers ahead of his friend Pau Gasol made him get an offer and the pivot-wing values as it deserves.
> 
> Jose Luis Martinez and Nacho Duke published that Garbajosa would negotiate his contract as a free agent. Jorge would be the replacement for Lamar Odom and Radmanovic, embroiled in rumours of transfers. San Antonio has also shown great interest in him.



Very embarassing to BC if this proves to be true and Garbo plays any kind of role for the Lakers or Spurs. His very own Alonzo Mourning. Yet another smudge on the golden boy? Wait and see I guess.


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## holt_81

Why exactly were we in such a rush to buy out Garbo anyway? Clearly, he didn't have a deal lined up. Also, I never heard what it was for.

He didn't end up being very good bang for the buck considering the injury. And it was questionable even when he was healthy.


----------



## ☆MiﮒFi†☆™

charlz said:


> BC has managed to totally deplete the Raptors.
> 
> Calderon/ and now Ukic are Babcock finds.
> Sam Mitchell was a babcock hire.
> Bosh was here already...
> 
> Charlie V + Joey -> FORD (older more expensive) -> JO (even older more expensive).
> Andrea -> is a wasted pick.
> Delfino for one year = 2 lost 2nd round draft picks.
> no #17 pick this year?
> 
> WTF?
> 
> If JO breaks down Bosh is gone in 2 years for sure.. and he may be anyhow because who the he11 wants to play with Bargs.
> 
> The cupboards are bare... the writing is on the wall rebuilding will start once they trade JO's expiring contract for an over paid diminishing asset + draft pick(s).
> 
> Here we go again...


I think it goes way behind your points. The most important thing BC did was change the culture. The culture was losing now its about winning. And we considered one of the most classy organizations in the league. BC gave us that credibility and here we are today a much better basketball team. You can't look at few points because thats not fair. Babcock had an eye for talent for the most part as it turned out with Calderon, Villanueva, Ukic who we have not seen yet but he turned himself into a really nice player in Europe. Nobody will forget Hoffa over Igodala. But the wins and losses speak for themselves. BC has done a great job rebuilding this organization. Remember he always has a plan and a trick up his sleeve.


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## holt_81

☆MiﮒFi†☆™;5595097 said:


> Remember he always has a plan and a trick up his sleeve.


Maybe he can get his dad to loan us some players from Team USA?


----------



## ☆MiﮒFi†☆™

holt_81 said:


> Maybe he can get his dad to loan us some players from Team USA?


That would be nice, but he will just tell us Bosh is enough.


----------



## holt_81

Since the time Colangelo was brought in, his largest contribution has been culture change - and that's the problem.

The team he imagined we'd become is nothing like the team we are. In analyzing his key decisions, BC took on great risks and could not have fallen flatter on his face. This despite having no shortage of information and everything he could ask for. That things have gone wrong during these two seasons in such a predictable manner is what bothers me the most.

I have always diapproved of his hiring from a basketball standpoint. He was clearly successful in Phoenix, and showed capability in filling out a roster as best he could around his stars. But he was also prone to failure there, as all GMs are. And from the time he showed up in Toronto, it seemed he was more interested in proving how much smarter he and his way were than the rest of the league rather than being flexible and building a successful team. He planned on doing this in two ways, both of which were failures waiting to happen:

1) Focusing on Europe as a relatively untapped source of talent.

The recent draft record of Europeans had been very spotty leading to the draft. A lack of tangible experience had already been identified as a common thread for failure for Europeans draftees, so it amazes me that we went right ahead and drafted Bargnani. He didn't even get the chance to dominate high school, he just sat on the bench for his club team. To aid in the decision we had also just hired Bargnani's club team's executive to be our assistant GM, the person who could supposedly provide the best insight on his potential selection.

And though we were able to sign AP and Garbo, the key failing is that we didn't get them at a great price or good value since European teams are very competitive with the NBA over certain players. I also figured that moving into Europe with the intention being to sign the top players one year earlier than other teams would be a short-lived advantage, so having Europe as a key focus was misguided.

Europe isn't to be ignored as there are good players there, but I feel for the time being that scouts are there to provide information to compare with vs. North American players in order to select the best player. It seems as we've actually been looking for ways to select international players. Scouring Europe for veterans isn't really a significant long-term advantage over the rest of the league as only the best can survive in the NBA and they are easily identified. But if a team could marginally improve its player evaluation, cap management, and contract negotiation skills at home, the advantages and benefits would pay off greatly.

2) Shaping the Raptors in the mold of the Suns.

The Suns have a style that not many teams could duplicate. They had the league's best passing PG and most efficient shooter by far in Nash, the perfect 4 for a fast-break system in Shawn Marion, could field a starting lineup with four very good 3-point shooters, and complemented this outside game with the league's best finisher in Amare. We had none of these pieces and could not hope to acquire anything better. TJ Ford would fail on the Suns simply because he is not a good enough shooter. The Suns succeeded offensively because they stretched the floor for Amare and shot 3s at an equivalent FG% of about 60 - a mark TJ can and will never approach in his wildest dreams.

Without these freak players, it was obvious that a more conventional approach to building a roster would have to take place meaning actually valuing defense and rebounding. Building around our star, Bosh, meant building around a half-court player offensively. His weakness offensively is low-post play, to which we brought in Rasho. And his defensive limitations are/were with rotations, shot blocking and rebounding. Rasho was never much of a shot blocker or rebounder, and has never been quick enough to fit into a fast-break offense. That move also made little sense.

I'm quite glad we forgot about the fast-paced offense and the myth that it can solve a struggling team's woes. It's fun and exciting, but to run it at the highest level it requires a very specialized set of extremely talented players. Otherwise, successful teams need to have the same focus on defense and rebounding as the rest of the league.


One running suspicion that I have is that MLSE has had desires all along to become Europe's team (for monetary reasons). This helps explain Colangelo's hiring from another angle as he was the perfect GM to set the plan into action.

On the surface, we really did have the "Golden Boy" coming into town. People still may not see it this way, but he hasn't merely made mistakes in Toronto. He has never ever had the right mindset to build our team from the ground up into what it should've been. He was just far too misguided and impatient to do the job properly.


----------



## toprofx

i really don't get this thread at all. I guess i'm slowly beginning to rezlize that its just me but i have no qualms with bc at all. i think we rap fans are looking for things to gripe about. 

We were a losing team under BABS

We win under BC

i think we're all forgetting the pain of watching a raps game when babs was the gm

geez people, bc is the man. stop with this nonsense.


----------



## lucky777s

You see, that is a very superficial look at two very different situations.

BC would never have even come here under the conditions Babs had to work with. No cap space, no PG, no C, no young talent other than Bosh, a disgraceful 'superstar' as the face of the franchise and sucking up tons of cap space along with Jalen Rose. Not even a decent coach in place or a decent scouting department. We were at least 2 years away from turning it around and everyone knew it.

And if Babs had come here under the conditions BC had: first overall pick, 16 mill in cap room, Charlie, Joey, Jose, MoP surrounding CB4 with Ukic and Slokar overseas and Bonner at a cheap price along with expiring contracts like EWill and ATrain. Who knows how good a team Babs could have put together with all that going for him.

Add in the fact that Dick Peddie was micro-managing Babs and going behind his back with Embry all the time and you can see that Babs had very little chance for success. I don't even think drafting Bynum and Granger would have helped (CV was better than both) enough in year 2 because the fan/media frenzy over Hoffa and the VC trade. That 'horrible' VC trade that helped clear our cap space, helped dump Jalens contract (with the extra pick), and let Bosh become a leader on and off the court, and allowed Sam to truly start changing the culture of the team.

Look at another story in the news today. Walsh in NY had a sucker lined up to take Zach's contract and did not immediately pull the trigger. If Babs made a move like that, which he did with both Zo and Jalen, he would be overruled or fired (which he was in each case). But a guy with any kind of rep, like Walsh, can get away with it. Same decision, totally different reaction based on pure BS.


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## holt_81

Babcock and Colangelo came in with very different rosters - Babcock's was on the decline while Colangelo's was on the rise. To be fair, that needs to be taken into consideration.

GMs need to be judged based on how well they make decisions, not necessarily the results of them - especially during the building stages. A good/bad break here or there could be all the difference in some cases. The moves they make are similar to poker, they are often dealing with alot of uncertainty and hit or miss outcomes rather than with more predictable veterans. It's like in poker, you can go into a hand with a 15% chance of winning and get lucky, or 85% chance of winning and lose. But whoever is making the consistently better decisions should win in the end.

Looking solely at results ignores the situation and also the great amount of work leading up to the decisions that those results are based on.


----------



## Myth

Interesting post. I'm surprised that you disapproved of Colangelo. I'm not doubting that you did, just surprised. Through a decade of mismanagement, and player misgivings about Canada, Toronto was a laughing stock. It was radioactive. Toronto needed credibility in the worst way! 

1. Babcock lacked credibility within the Raptors organization as well as league wide. His hiring was the reason Vince want to leave in the first place. The mistakes he made in his first year further eroded his credibility.

2. His draft philosophy was flawed. Instead of signing a journeyman free agent to play center so Bosh wouldn't have to, he drafted Araujo declaring him 'ready to play now'. That is ALWAYS a mistaken philosophy. Never use a lottery draft pick to fill a need or because a player is NBA ready. Instead always draft the best available talent. Remember the Howard vs. Okafor debate? It seems ridiculous now that Okafor was even consider to be taken first on the grounds that although Howard had the better potential Okafor was ready now. Closer to home VC urged the team to trade the 4th overall pick (Bosh) in one of the best drafts of all time for some veteran help. That would have been an enormous mistake.

3. His free agent signing didn't work out. Remember Rafer Altson?

4. His trade of Vince Carter is seen as one of the worst in a decade.

That isn't to say Babcock didn't do some things well, but when your credibility is in question you can't make mistakes like that. Free agents were shunning Toronto, signing Bosh was in question and no GM was going to give him a legitimate offer in a trade scenario after the fleecing he got by Jersey. Babcock had to go.

Colangelo made it all better. Fresh off his recently won the executive of the year. Colangelo was a Rock Star that gave the franchise instant credibility. Bosh resigned on Colangelo's reputation alone. Lady luck seemed to shine on the franchise as they won the draft lottery. He seemed to do the impossible by trading Araujo for a serviceable player and finding enough mid-lever talent to lift the team to a division championship. Bargani wins runner up to rookie of the year, Mitchell wins coach of the year and BC wins his second executive of the year. CREDIBILITY. Toronto is sexy to NBA players for the first time. That is HUGE!! So again I'm not sure why you disapprove of Calangelo's hiring.

In regards to your other points: 

I'm not sure Colangelo focused exclusively on Euro talent-- after all he trade for TJ Ford. I think if Oden or Durant were available in that draft BC would have taken them ahead of Bargnani. Instead of being caught up in stereotypes BC seems confident in his ability to determine the best talent regardless of passport. That doesn't mean he's always right but that's the sense I get. 

I disagree that $4 million for Parker (an American player) and Garbo were not good value. In fact, I think if BC tried to trade AP's contract he'd have about 29 other teams interested.

I don't see Europe as a key focus. Colangelo seems confident in his abilities to scout American players; he hired the best Euro scout available as his assistant GM to handle Euro talent and hired the best available African scout to focus on that part of the world. That seems diversified to me.

Instead of being locked into trying to create a Sun's of the East I think BC tried to build a team that best suited the pieces he could get. Do you think if Oden or Dwight Howard were available he wouldn't have jumped at the chance to be a more half court team? That type of player isn't easy to come by. When O’Neal became available he opted to trade for him, in essence going the San Antonio route (twin towers) instead of trading for Shawn Marion or Gerald Wallace and going with the Phoenix model.

I don't think MLSE is smart enough to have planed to hire Colongelo to build "Europe's team". They haven't demonstraded this foresight ever.

BC had an initial play and change it as new opportunities arose. I'm not sure what you mean by "do the job properly". I'm not saying that I wouldn't have done some thing differently than Colangelo, but it sounds like you're building a fantasy team instead of having to deal with the challenges of the real world.


----------



## Myth

Sorry should should have said the above post was in reference to Holt 81 post #70 (permalink


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## bircan

Personally I think you guys are better off with TJ gone, because Calderon is a beast, almost Nash like in his stats, and with even more playing time, look out. O'Neal will probably get all excited and actually show up to play quality minutes for you guys. If he doesn't do as expected, like you guys said, he will expire in 2 yrs.

I think the most controversial activity was the drafting of Bargnani. I think its agreeable that Roy for example is a much better player right now by far, and that there is only hope that Bargnani will develop into a solid player. It seems he has much work to do on his game, and it also unlikely that Bargnani will get extended minutes with Bosh and O'Neal now. Essentially, if he gets 36 + minutes on a rebuilding team, then he will be able to develop on court fast and the stats will be more representative of a no.1 pick. But in this situation, I think it is unlikely that Bargnani will develop quickly, and I'm not even sure if the Raps even need what he brings to the floor?
He's not a Kwame Brown yet anyway, but i think the Raps somehow needed to give this guy as many minutes as they can (foul trouble aside) so he can establish and show himself more on the court. Hopefully, his confidence doesn't take a dip this season with O'Neal. Best case scenario is that he complements what Bosh and O'Neal bring to the floor, and improves in shooting and especially rebounding.


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## DWADE4

What about re-joining JO and Ron Artest again? They formed great success back in the Indiana days going to the eastern conference finals. Giving up Andrea and Joey would be enough. Artests contract runs out pretty soon also so its not a long term investment if he doesn't work out.

Our line up would look like - 
PG- Jose Calderon | R.Ukic 
SG- Anthony Parker | Jason Kapono | Hassan Adams 
SF- Ron Artest | Jamario Moon 
PF- Chris Bosh | Kris Hump 
C - Jermaine O'neal | Nathan Jawai 

Kings would also have to throw in a filler also to make it work.


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## Myth

DWADE4 said:


> What about re-joining JO and Ron Artest again? They formed great success back in the Indiana days going to the eastern conference finals. Giving up Andrea and Joey would be enough. Artests contract runs out pretty soon also so its not a long term investment if he doesn't work out.
> 
> Our line up would look like -
> PG- Jose Calderon | R.Ukic
> SG- Anthony Parker | Jason Kapono | Hassan Adams
> SF- Ron Artest | Jamario Moon
> PF- Chris Bosh | Kris Hump
> C - Jermaine O'neal | Nathan Jawai
> 
> Kings would also have to throw in a filler also to make it work.


Give up Bargnani is too much for a player who will not resign with the Kings, has publically asked for a trade and has Artest's track record. Instead I would offer Kapono, Graham and two second round picks. That aside I still think AB will be a good player. How good, remains to be seen.


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## holt_81

Making a play for Artest would be interesting.

Myth, I'll get respond to you soon, a little busy these days.


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## charlz

holt_81 said:


> Making a play for Artest would be interesting.
> 
> Myth, I'll get respond to you soon, a little busy these days.


for salary purposes it might be something like moon + J-KAP for artest - since BC has rolled this dice this far why stop? 

Raps all defensive 08/09


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## holt_81

Camby for a second rounder = there is a worse GM than Babcock. Denver prepare to meet the 2009 lottery.

Exactly the player we could have used. Wish we could have done some sort of 3 way with Ford to get Camby.


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## lucky777s

They were not going anywhere with him so why pay 10mill in tax plus lose out on maybe another 11 mill in league payments. Owner had enough of this experiment. If Kmart and Nene can stay healthy its not too bad for them.

Read how the Grizz GM stands behind the Pau trade and I have to agree. Not a bad trade for their re-building.

Goal was never to get equal talent back so you can't judge the result like that. Babs was just first to do this and got creamed by press.


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## charlz

charlz said:


> BC has managed to totally deplete the Raptors.
> 
> Calderon/ and now Ukic are Babcock finds.
> Sam Mitchell was a babcock hire.
> Bosh was here already...
> 
> Charlie V + Joey -> FORD (older more expensive) -> JO (even older more expensive).
> Andrea -> is a wasted pick.
> Delfino for one year = 2 lost 2nd round draft picks.
> no #17 pick this year?
> 
> WTF?
> 
> If JO breaks down Bosh is gone in 2 years for sure.. and he may be anyhow because who the he11 wants to play with Bargs.
> 
> The cupboards are bare... the writing is on the wall rebuilding will start once they trade JO's expiring contract for an over paid diminishing asset + draft pick(s).
> 
> Here we go again...



happened sooner than I thought ... and they got less in return than I thought. Ho-Hum just another cellar dwelling year in Rap land.


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## osman

charlz said:


> happened sooner than I thought ... and they got less in return than I thought. Ho-Hum just another cellar dwelling year in Rap land.


haha, good call. The worst part is we gave up pick to trade for him, and now we give up a pick to get rid of him. He has cost us two first round picks. ****ing BC sucks.


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## charlz

osman said:


> haha, good call. The worst part is we gave up pick to trade for him, and now we give up a pick to get rid of him. He has cost us two first round picks. ****ing BC sucks.


Honestly though your right on! In the span of 9 months Toronto has lost.

2 1st round draft picks
TJ ford
Rasho
Moon
Delfino (who cost 2 second round picks)

all of that just to get in to 2nd last place in the weakest division.

Oh gee I wonder why they are stuck using flaccid ero-cast offs willie solomon to fill vital roles? cause the team is bankrupt of talent.


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## Mr_B

charlz said:


> Honestly though your right on! In the span of 9 months Toronto has lost.
> 
> 2 1st round draft picks
> TJ ford
> Rasho
> Moon
> Delfino (who cost 2 second round picks)
> 
> all of that just to get in to 2nd last place in the weakest division.
> 
> Oh gee I wonder why they are stuck using flaccid ero-cast offs willie solomon to fill vital roles? cause the team is bankrupt of talent.


2 first round picks? 1 that turned into Roy Hibbert  in a weak draft year and another we still have remember its protected, we weren't going anywhere with Tj ,Rasho or Moon and his low IQ don't mind seeing them go. Delfino will be here next year the 2nd rounders didn't amount to anything I don't get all the sky is falling theory here I much rather have BC over Babcock hes not doing as bad as you make him out to be


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## lucky777s

This was a really good thread filled with lots of good facts and well thought out arguments. 

Reading it again 8 months later I stand by everything I said in this thread, especially outlining the vastly different circumstances each GM walked into. 

Today it is only Colangelo's reputation and contract that keep him employed as the team has gotten progressively worse each year. The 'cult of personality' on display here in Toronto.


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## Chan Ho Nam

dont blame BC, the raptors suck in addition to all the injuries we have suffered


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## charlz

chairman5 said:


> dont blame BC, the raptors suck in addition to all the injuries we have suffered



IT is his fault that the team does not have the depth to over come injuries. Poor cap management and complete short sightedness are why this team is so frail. 

The two back up point gaurds are so bad that Anthony parker and Jason kapono are now ahead of them. Luckily Ukic is showing some promise (a babcock guy).


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## osman

Mr_B said:


> 2 first round picks? 1 that turned into Roy Hibbert  in a weak draft year and another we still have remember its protected, we weren't going anywhere with Tj ,Rasho or Moon and his low IQ don't mind seeing them go. Delfino will be here next year the 2nd rounders didn't amount to anything I don't get all the sky is falling theory here I much rather have BC over Babcock hes not doing as bad as you make him out to be



Since when do we judge picks after half a year? Who knows what Hibbert will turn into. If we're judging guys based on half a year, well then Bargs is absolute crap. Personally I would have drafted Batum, who is starting on the Blazers.

And I'm sure we could've traded TJ for picks. Picks and prospects are key in developing your team, and yet we give them away for nothing. How did Boston get Allen and Garnett? They had Al Jefferson/Gerald Green/Telfair and a top 5 pick they traded for those guys.

How did the Lakers get Pau? They had Crit/Marc/1st round pick. If we built up our stock of picks/prospects we might be able to pull a trade for a star one day. That is the only way we will succeed, as I don't see any stars signing here as free agents. We need to build a stable of assets, yet all BC has done is given them away.


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## Mr_B

osman said:


> Since when do we judge picks after half a year? Who knows what Hibbert will turn into. If we're judging guys based on half a year, well then Bargs is absolute crap. Personally I would have drafted Batum, who is starting on the Blazers.


Alright I'll change my statement and say as of right nowHibbert looking like trash personally I see no potential or flashes in this guy hey I may be wrong. As for Batum good and we were linked to him all throughout the draft but we were labeled as a win now team and Batum was labeled as a project that would take years to develop. Our focus may have changed but during that time it was a conflict of interest 




> And I'm sure we could've traded TJ for picks. Picks and prospects are key in developing your team, and yet we give them away for nothing. How did Boston get Allen and Garnett? They had Al Jefferson/Gerald Green/Telfair and a top 5 pick they traded for those guys.


2 things First what deal was out there for Tj and Rasho at the time? Both players had low value Rasho a big with a huge contract with no lift in his jump and Tj who nobody wanted to take a chance on due to his history with stingers, breaking his neck as a rookie and then another scare with the Atlanta incident, and complained about starting, nobody was going to give valuable assets for that the pacers only stepped up because they could relate it was a you take my damaged good and I'll take your damaged good kind of deal. Second I wouldn't look too deeply into Boston situation. Its a known fact around the league that the KG was trade was a case of old celtic buddies who jobs were on the line doing each other a favor in a you scratch my back and I scratch yours scenario (Machale more than Ainge) keep in mind KG was linked to the Lakers and Bulls and neither of there offers matched the Wolves Ainge & McHale sweetened the deal for each other and at the end of the day the Wolves are no better now compared to when they traded KG 






osman said:


> How did the Lakers get Pau? They had Crit/Marc/1st round pick. If we built up our stock of picks/prospects we might be able to pull a trade for a star one day. That is the only way we will succeed, as I don't see any stars signing here as free agents. We need to build a stable of assets, yet all BC has done is given them away.


Again look at the situation Pau forced his way out of town in VC like fashion and Memphis was a desparite team they would of given up Pau to anybody outside of the bulls nobody was in the running for Pau. We can still build this team Its in good shape in terms of assets if people will stop over reacting you'll see it 

*Player wise*
-Jose
-Barg(Tradeable if necessary) 
-Roko
-Bosh(Tradeable if necessary)

*Future*

-This year 1st(projected to be around #8)
-A late first rounder in cash
-Next year 1st(Protected from Miami unless we make the playoffs)
-Clippers 2nd round pick( its protected we won't see it for years but its still an asset)
-Our own 2nd rounders
-Cap space

BC currently on his plan B which is to rebuild quickly if plan A failed which was to win now. When you look at the cap outside of Jose and Kapono BC gave nobody a long term deal every contract was 3 years or less which was done on purpose in cases we go through hard times like were going through now AP up, Graham are up(only one of them coming back imo) Kap gone after this season to free up more space just relax a bit , still gotta see where BC takes things he still has players to move a draft a new coach to hire and free agency to deal with lets he how he handles all that first before you hang him


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## Ras

Mr_B said:


> Alright I'll change my statement and say as of right nowHibbert looking like trash personally I see no potential or flashes in this guy hey I may be wrong. As for Batum good and we were linked to him all throughout the draft but we were labeled as a win now team and Batum was labeled as a project that would take years to develop. Our focus may have changed but during that time it was a conflict of interest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 things First what deal was out there for Tj and Rasho at the time? Both players had low value Rasho a big with a huge contract with no lift in his jump and Tj who nobody wanted to take a chance on due to his history with stingers, breaking his neck as a rookie and then another scare with the Atlanta incident, and complained about starting, nobody was going to give valuable assets for that the pacers only stepped up because they could relate it was a you take my damaged good and I'll take your damaged good kind of deal. Second I wouldn't look too deeply into Boston situation. Its a known fact around the league that the KG was trade was a case of old celtic buddies who jobs were on the line doing each other a favor in a you scratch my back and I scratch yours scenario (Machale more than Ainge) keep in mind KG was linked to the Lakers and Bulls and neither of there offers matched the Wolves Ainge & McHale sweetened the deal for each other and at the end of the day the Wolves are no better now compared to when they traded KG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again look at the situation Pau forced his way out of town in VC like fashion and Memphis was a desparite team they would of given up Pau to anybody outside of the bulls nobody was in the running for Pau. We can still build this team Its in good shape in terms of assets if people will stop over reacting you'll see it
> 
> *Player wise*
> -Jose
> -Barg(Tradeable if necessary)
> -Roko
> -Bosh(Tradeable if necessary)
> 
> *Future*
> 
> -This year 1st(projected to be around #8)
> -A late first rounder in cash
> -Next year 1st(Protected from Miami unless we make the playoffs)
> -Clippers 2nd round pick( its protected we won't see it for years but its still an asset)
> -Our own 2nd rounders
> -Cap space
> 
> BC currently on his plan B which is to rebuild quickly if plan A failed which was to win now. When you look at the cap outside of Jose and Kapono BC gave nobody a long term deal every contract was 3 years or less which was done on purpose in cases we go through hard times like were going through now AP up, Graham are up(only one of them coming back imo) Kap gone after this season to free up more space just relax a bit , still gotta see where BC takes things he still has players to move a draft a new coach to hire and free agency to deal with lets he how he handles all that first before you hang him


I think the main gripe people have is that he came into the situation with the perfect opportunity and everything one would need to build a team, and yet, 3 years later, we're right back where we started. We haven't moved forward at all in the grand scheme of things, and now our supposed franchise player probably doesn't want to stick around. Doesn't that not sit well with you?


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## seifer0406

They are both pretty bad with their work with the Raptors. Perhaps Babcock wasn't *as* bad as we thought he was, but he still deserved to be fired after he made those mistakes. Colangelo on the other hand hasn't reach the expectations that people had of him when he joined the Raptors organization.


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## ballocks

i don't know who's better or worse. but what i find interesting is how people used to slag babcock mercilessly while worshipping at the temple of colangelo. i always thought that was ridiculous and spoke to their ignorance of the nba's collective bargaining deal. i was always like, "you don't deserve an opinion- either way."

it's the same as when vince was dealt. there were so many who disagreed with the move at the time, saying that we "gave him" away, pretending like : 1) he didn't demand a trade; 2) he wasn't being a distraction; 3) the team didn't need to rebuild; 4) the draft picks were worth nothing and the key parts of the deal were eric williams and alonzo mourning.

i'm sorry, where are these people now? i'm guessing they're the same ones who are ripping on colangelo for his mess and mocking vince for not being a winner in new jersey.

not saying i don't agree with _some_ of these people _some_ of the time. just saying that it's never as simple as they make it out to be. babcock deserved the criticism in 2006 no more than he deserves the 'glory' today; colangelo deserved the 'glory' in 2007 no more than he deserves the criticism today. these guys both had/have their issues, don't get me wrong, but the point is that you'll never find a gm who keeps the bandwagon-jumpers at bay forever. they will molest you eventually.

peace


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## seifer0406

ballocks said:


> it's the same as when vince was dealt. there were so many who disagreed with the move at the time, saying that we "gave him" away, pretending like : 1) he didn't demand a trade; 2) he wasn't being a distraction; 3) the team didn't need to rebuild; 4) the draft picks were worth nothing and the key parts of the deal were eric williams and alonzo mourning.


I have to say I disagree with your opinion about people that weren't happy with the trade. It is true that at the time, the VC to NJ deal was the best that was on the table and perhaps compare to our other options where we might needed to take on a bad contract, getting the 2 Williams and Zo(Whom we had to buy out) was the smarter choice. However, one must not overlook the fact that we ended up in that situation because of Babcock's inability to deal with VC prior to the start of his last season. There was a lengthy time period between when Vince first asked for a trade and when he was finally traded, and during that time, his trade stock plummeted. There was nobody else to blame but Babcock for this, therefore one way or another, people had the right to be unhappy about what ended up happening.

And of those 4 points, 3 of them were Babcock's fault. The first and 2nd points I have already explained why it was Babcock's fault, the 3rd one is also him since he *was* the GM. You wouldn't need to re-do something if you did it right the first time. If he had not drafted Hoffa and signed Rafer Alston, we wouldn't be in such a bad situation. If he realized that Vince had to go before dog-poo hit the fan, we wouldn't be in that situation. I don't care how bad of a job Colangelo is doing now, there is no excuse to what Babcock did. People are disappointed at Colangelo and I admit I am one of those who expected better things from him, but just because he is doing such a bad job now doesn't mean that Babcock wasn't one of the worst GMs in the league when he was fired. The guy butchered the team, and that's a fact.


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## osman

Mr_B said:


> *Player wise*
> -Jose
> -Barg(Tradeable if necessary)
> -Roko
> -Bosh(Tradeable if necessary)
> 
> *Future*
> 
> -This year 1st(projected to be around #8)
> -A late first rounder in cash
> -Next year 1st(Protected from Miami unless we make the playoffs)
> -Clippers 2nd round pick( its protected we won't see it for years but its still an asset)
> -Our own 2nd rounders
> -Cap space



You know whats funny, 3/4 of the assets you mentioned are because of Babcock, (Jose/Ukic/Bosh). And those future assets don't mean anything. Every single GM has draft picks unless he trades them away. That is not BC's doing.

Again I didn't like Babs, he made some horrible moves, but BC isn't fairing much better.


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## ballocks

seifer0406 said:


> I have to say I disagree with your opinion about people that weren't happy with the trade. It is true that at the time, the VC to NJ deal was the best that was on the table and perhaps compare to our other options where we might needed to take on a bad contract, getting the 2 Williams and Zo(Whom we had to buy out) was the smarter choice. However, one must not overlook the fact that we ended up in that situation because of Babcock's inability to deal with VC prior to the start of his last season. There was a lengthy time period between when Vince first asked for a trade and when he was finally traded, and during that time, his trade stock plummeted. There was nobody else to blame but Babcock for this, therefore one way or another, people had the right to be unhappy about what ended up happening.
> 
> And of those 4 points, 3 of them were Babcock's fault. The first and 2nd points I have already explained why it was Babcock's fault, the 3rd one is also him since he *was* the GM. You wouldn't need to re-do something if you did it right the first time. If he had not drafted Hoffa and signed Rafer Alston, we wouldn't be in such a bad situation. If he realized that Vince had to go before dog-poo hit the fan, we wouldn't be in that situation. I don't care how bad of a job Colangelo is doing now, there is no excuse to what Babcock did. People are disappointed at Colangelo and I admit I am one of those who expected better things from him, but just because he is doing such a bad job now doesn't mean that Babcock wasn't one of the worst GMs in the league when he was fired. The guy butchered the team, and that's a fact.


people always have a right to complain. i don't disagree. i never said i thought babcock was an excellent manager, either. i think he was completely devoid of charisma and it's unfortunately more difficult for such people to lead teams/organizations to success (fair or unfair).

imo, the vince trade would have been better had babcock had the nuggets to play chicken with alonzo mourning. i think that buyout was murder. i think only one team in the league would have conceded to his threats- that being the toronto raptors. i was embarrassed and believe we're still paying for the mistake today.

but on balance, i don't think he was a horrible gm. if you're going to rip him for signing rafer alston, you can't look past the following: 1) that he promptly traded skip for a 20 ppg player (better defender, more energy, shorter and cheaper contract, team leader- good or bad)- so in effect, we were never forced to pay the penalty for the alston signing; and 2) that what colangelo is doing right now is pretty much the same thing. we signed rafer to help vince (colangelo's finding guys to help bosh)- in fact, i think rafer may have been the highest paid free agent point guard in 2004. no one else was available for the mle (since we were so far over the cap... thanks vince) and we couldn't afford to wait. i think colangelo is clearly on a directive from mgmt to keep chris bosh in 2010 (shake up the team _now_)- i don't agree with it and i don't agree with how he's doing it, but he is. it's exactly the same deal.

thing is, i think i agree with you. i don't think one is better (or worse) than the other. they're pretty much repeating the same mistakes. for example, i can't believe colangelo sent a conditional first-rounder to miami in the same way that grunwald sent one to cleveland and forced us to live ball & chain for five years. i can't believe we're enslaved to satisfy chris the same way we were to satisfy vince (where did that lead us?). and as fans, the hypocrisy continues- i can't believe we're nervous about bosh leaving in 2010 when our team hasn't done anything of note and his next deal would be worth 6 yr/127 mil, when we were just complaining about jermaine's huge contract and how we couldn't afford him anymore (imagine what bosh is going to look like in five years! if you thought jermaine was bad...!!!).

as fans, it's all short-term short-term. there is no future until it comes, at which time we revise how we felt earlier ("why did he do that!?! what an idiot!"). our opinions are generally not informed. if we were wise, we'd understand that 2009 is equally important to 2014, and we can't make decisions for the former if we're going to put the latter in great jeopardy. 

when it comes to JO/marion, i can say with confidence that it was a poor decision because it serves neither the present nor the future. i haven't felt that way about any decision since the mourning buyout.

peace


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