# The end of an era(s).



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Once the dust settles from this loss, Pax and co are sure to end the Tom Thibodeau era and maybe even the Noah era. Pax will sell the fanbase that Thibs was the sole reason why the Bulls could not get over the hump again and as usual the gullible fan base will eat it up. 

The truth is, the Bulls franchise has systematically failed to put together a team capable of winning a title. People can go on and say that this was on paper the most talented team in recent history, and while that may be true, the results on the court where far from the best product in recent history. And it wasn't due to poor coaching. 

Gasol was a nice addition but was a consistent defensive liability, Noah became a complete and utter useless piece 1 month into the season, Mirotic was just ineffective as a playoff caliber player, the bench disappeared and McDermott was not ready for the NBA. Pair that with a bellow average season by Rose, and you got yourself all the ingredients for another playoff exit to a team that can defend AND score. Not even Jimmy's breakout season could turn that around.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Thibs is likely gone, but Noah has another year on that contract (and a bone on bone situation in his knee that could cause him to fail physicals if we try to trade him)... not sure the Noah era is over.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

I'd trade Mirotic as the center piece for a star player, should one become available. Hate that we're letting Thibs go, if anything GarPax should leave before him.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

truth be told this is an abysmal situation.

how often do good franchises fire good coaches for the same issue they had with the previous coach(minutes disputes/ general pettiness )?

how often ?

never 

in truth we now live in a world where the clippers have a better organization than the bulls and the jobs of gar , pax and thibs are being done better by 1 man.

if I had my druthers i'd keep gar and thibs but I am not totally against the idea of cleaning house and starting over ...its been 12 years of paxson now and without that 1.7 chance coming to fruition in 2008 this team has been criminally mediocre for the most part under his stead, not quite enough to challenge for anything , not bad enough to believe anything on the horizon will truly change , and when those opportunities have come , max space free agency or a top 3 pick, by my count he is 1 for 5 and if not for that extreme bit of luck most likely instead of derrick rose the bulls would have netted dj Augustine instead who satisfies most of the criteria paxson usually goes for and played a position of need.

paxson has been bad for the franchise , he doesn't get a lot of bad press because he knows how to talk to reporters but his record speaks for itself, he's had his share of public relation gaffes (dnagate, choking VDN, running thibs out of town) he's gutted the team a couple of times for cap space to grab 2 bigs on the downside of their careers (ben Wallace and carlos boozer ) and he has wasted 2 top 3 picks in ben Gordon and tyrus Thomas ....he's not the guy to turn this around .

as bad as people talk about Krause after 12 years he had won 4 titles and was about to win 2 more in the next 2 years .

gar foreman has as general manager coincided with an uptick in player acquisition , they draft better ...much better, taj and jimmy come under his watch ...but they still are unable to get rose that 2nd star to compliment him and make them true contenders...and no gasol and jimmy aren't it , at one time gasol was , but its doubtful jimmy will ever be , an upgrade is still needed.

as for tom thib, he has an excellent defense, a strong relationship with his players , but his offense is boring and predictable and relies on shooters to make it effective , also I kind of agree with management that he runs his players into the ground, but I also think its a coach's prerogative to manage his players as he sees fit , and the players for the most part don't seem to mind. I wish he could manage his players with the foresight of popovich or phil Jackson but that doesn't seem to be in the cards. I don't think he is the coach that can take a team to a title .

with the physical failings of rose and noah, it might be time start over before the wheels completely come off .but I wouldn't want to start over with paxson he's had enough chances , i'm not sure about gar but i'd be ok with giving him a shot at running things, but if not just start over with all of them, a real plan for once.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Bizkit...I know Bulls fans are not happy with Thibodeau right now, but I might be one of the few who thinks the Bulls front office will not set up Thibodeau as the "fall guy". IMO their story will be more like "Thibs did a great job in his 5 years here through alot of adversity. We thank him for that. It's time to move forward with a fresh face and get everyone on the same page".

Also, I strongly believe that everyone should not turn this into "Thibs is gone because X was his fault". Even though I don't like what I saw from Thibs in the post-season during his 5 years here and his flaws drive me nuts at times, this isn't about BLAMING anyone. It has everything to do with what will put the Chicago Bulls in the best position for success moving forward. Fact of the matter is that Thibodeau just isn't on the same page with the front office. They have differing, sometimes conflicting philosophies about how this team should be coached. That is a recipe for failure. You simply can't move forward as a franchise when everyone isn't on the same page.

People can gripe all they want about the Bulls front office being petty, back stabbing, etc...but it doesn't change that basic fact.

Lastly...while Thibodeau wasn't handed an ideal deck of cards this season (injuries, Noah's physical decline, etc.), I do think he deserves a big chunk of blame regardless. I don't think he did a good job adapting his system to his personnel. Elite coaches do that. He knows only 1 way to coach, that being defense first and out work the opponent. Problem is, he did this in spite of his personnel. This squad's offensive talents were often wasted and to this day I remain unimpressed with Thibodeau's ability to coach offensive sets. He is a legitimate defensive genius, though, I certainly admit that. Orlando or New Orleans will be a great fit where he'll have defensive cornerstones to work with that will buy into his approach.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

mvP to the Wee said:


> I'd trade Mirotic as the center piece for a star player, should one become available. Hate that we're letting Thibs go, if anything GarPax should leave before him.


Thing is, if you replace the GM/front office, the replacement will inevitably oust the coach at some point in favor of "his guy". Thibodeau would be gone anyways.

GarPax aren't perfect and I do think they need to do alot better keeping good relationships with their coaches (not micromanaging, better transparency). But in spite of that, I believe they are a top 10 front office in this league, if for no other reason their ability to draft and develop young talent (IMO that's the most important quality in a front office to succeed in this league). I mean, people talk about the cards Thibodeau was dealt, but the front office was the same...they've had to build a team for 3 years with virtual dead weight (Rose contract) taking up 25% of their salary cap for crying out loud. Noah was a bargain contract until his knees gave out this year; I'd blame Thibodeau more for that when he was running Joakim out there 40 minutes a game the previous 2 seasons.

I easily take a good front office over a good coach, 24/7.


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## Ma Baker (May 12, 2015)

I like Thibs but time to let him go now and about our center position, we need a better player who can score also get boards.. Noah is dead, he's not doing anything but get boards so we gotta shape the team all over


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Bizkit...I know Bulls fans are not happy with Thibodeau right now, but I might be one of the few who thinks the Bulls front office will not set up Thibodeau as the "fall guy". IMO their story will be more like "Thibs did a great job in his 5 years here through alot of adversity. We thank him for that. It's time to move forward with a fresh face and get everyone on the same page".


The problem is they already set him up as the fall guy, even before the playoffs started. Anything positive they say will not erase the several months of behind the scenes drama and countless questions about his job security and his relationship with the front office. 




> Lastly...while Thibodeau wasn't handed an ideal deck of cards this season (injuries, Noah's physical decline, etc.), I do think he deserves a big chunk of blame regardless. I don't think he did a good job adapting his system to his personnel. Elite coaches do that. He knows only 1 way to coach, that being defense first and out work the opponent. Problem is, he did this in spite of his personnel. This squad's offensive talents were often wasted and to this day I remain unimpressed with Thibodeau's ability to coach offensive sets. He is a legitimate defensive genius, though, I certainly admit that. Orlando or New Orleans will be a great fit where he'll have defensive cornerstones to work with that will buy into his approach.


I think Thibs doesn't get a lot of respect for his ability to adapt his offenses to the personnel on the floor. Remember last year when Rose was out and the offense ran through Noah? This year the offense created a TON more open 3 point shot attempts but there is no magical offense that will make them just flat out fall in. 

While I agree that Thibs isn't the best offensive tactician, nobody else was going to make these guys play any better or any more efficient on offense. Noah was a zombie out there, Rose is no where near the player he once was and Jimmy is a fine player but you don't win titles if hes your #2 . Mike D'Antonio wasn't going to make Kirk Hinrich a legit 6th man. 

Things will change, they honestly have to try to do something different. I do believe it has to be a top to bottom change. Thibs will and probably should be gone, but so should Garpax who have consistently failed more at their job than Thibs did.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

You can't just expect GM's to be able to go out and get three superstars. It just doesn't work that way. Cleveland was able to pull it off because of Bron's decision and it made them a contender. One wasn't playing and had Gasol played Game 4 and 5, there is a very good chance the Bulls win those games and this series. There is nothing wrong with this Chicago team - they are very good. Winning a championship in this league just involves a certain amount of luck.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> There is nothing wrong with this Chicago team


OBVIOUSLY there is something wrong with this team lol.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Thibs' flaws to me were clearly the most obvious in the playoffs, dating back to his 1st season as Bulls coach. If his level of success in the playoffs matched or exceeded what he accomplished in the regular season, I would be far more on his side. But I can't cite a single playoff series during the Thibs era where I felt he did something creative to really give us an advantage over the other team we were playing. It was always just "we have enough, just work harder", shortening the rotations, or "we just have to execute better". Not to mention how many times did our guys just seem exhausted and unprepared for a playoff run because they were busting ass for 82 games prior. Then opposing coaches will find our achilles heel and exploit it while Thibs can't figure out a counter approach. Most of the time it came down to problems running our offense. I can guarantee there are coaches out there who would've been able to develop better counter measures to those types of problems. But, the real question is can they run a defense like Thibodeau. Thibs is not necessarily a top 3-5 coach in this league, but he is undoubtedly top 3 defensively.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

mvP to the Wee said:


> I'd trade Mirotic as the center piece for a star player, should one become available. Hate that we're letting Thibs go, if anything GarPax should leave before him.


Mirotic isn't getting you a star as the primary in a trade unless a few first rounders and possibly someone like Gibson is going along with him.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Thibs' flaws to me were clearly the most obvious in the playoffs, dating back to his 1st season as Bulls coach. If his level of success in the playoffs matched or exceeded what he accomplished in the regular season, I would be far more on his side. But I can't cite a single playoff series during the Thibs era where I felt he did something creative to really give us an advantage over the other team we were playing. It was always just "we have enough, just work harder", shortening the rotations, or "we just have to execute better". Not to mention how many times did our guys just seem exhausted and unprepared for a playoff run because they were busting ass for 82 games prior. Then opposing coaches will find our achilles heel and exploit it while Thibs can't figure out a counter approach. Most of the time it came down to problems running our offense. I can guarantee there are coaches out there who would've been able to develop better counter measures to those types of problems. But, the real question is can they run a defense like Thibodeau. Thibs is not necessarily a top 3-5 coach in this league, but he is undoubtedly top 3 defensively.


This is just flat out wrong. 

Every coach makes mistakes in the playoffs, EVERY losing coach gets questioned on what they could have been done differently, or why this play was/not called during a specific situation. Heck, 2 seasons ago the Gregg Popovich was heavily questioned for some of his calls in the finals and he is regarded as the best coach in the game. 

At the end of the day you look at what Thibs was given, 2 out of 5 playoffs without Rose and NO second scoring/ballhandling option. 



> But I can't cite a single playoff series during the Thibs era where I felt he did something creative to really give us an advantage over the other team


Really? You can't even just look at this previous series and see that he absolutely had the Bulls play some of the best defense on Lebron James? He put the Bulls in the best position to win that series and yet his 2 stars shot under 40%, Noah was useless and the bench (The same bench that fans bitched about wanting on the court more) ABSOLUTELY sucked. 

I will agree thats its time for Thibs to go, but its also time for Garpax to go and its time for a change of culture around here.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> This is just flat out wrong.
> 
> Every coach makes mistakes in the playoffs, EVERY losing coach gets questioned on what they could have been done differently, or why this play was/not called during a specific situation. Heck, 2 seasons ago the Gregg Popovich was heavily questioned for some of his calls in the finals and he is regarded as the best coach in the game.
> 
> At the end of the day you look at what Thibs was given, 2 out of 5 playoffs without Rose and NO second scoring/ballhandling option.


You stated your opinion, I'm stating mine. I actually agree that every coach makes mistakes, even the very best. This is not my problem with Thibodeau's playoff record, though, so don't misread me. It's the fact there is a consistent problematic trend of this happening. How does 8-seeded Indiana in 2010 and 6-seed Milwaukee this year (with a losing record 2nd half of the year) push us how they did. How do we flat-out roll over and die in the 2011 playoffs against 8-seeded Philadelpha. Rose or not, that was pathetic how we bowed out in 4 straight. Similar complaints with how we lost to Miami in 2010 (lost 4 straight), Cleveland this year (lost 3 straight in spite of them being decimated by injury), and Washington last year. It's not so much we lost these series because we didn't have the horses, rather it's HOW we lost. How does a team like the Bucks nearly take us the distance this year, but we are supposedly a similar defense only team and lost 3-4 games straight multiple times in the playoffs. Something is not right about that given it's a trend spanning 5 years.



> Really? You can't even just look at this previous series and see that he absolutely had the Bulls play some of the best defense on Lebron James? He put the Bulls in the best position to win that series and yet his 2 stars shot under 40%, Noah was useless and the bench (The same bench that fans bitched about wanting on the court more) ABSOLUTELY sucked.
> 
> I will agree thats its time for Thibs to go, but its also time for Garpax to go and its time for a change of culture around here.


Hey, I said Thibs is still a defensive genius. I agree, he puts up great schemes to defend Lebron, no one is questioning that. But what does he sacrifice to make that happen? When you are burning Jimmy Butler's energy 45 minutes per game to defend Lebron with solo coverage, something is going to give.

Re: Noah...yes he was terrible, but isn't Thibodeau the one trotting him out there as much as he did? Thibodeau is also the one who (reportedly) was constantly at odds with the athletic training staff when they set a minutes limit for Noah based on his health problems. Thibodeau wanted to run Noah out there 35+ minutes a game like the past 2 years but the training staff said no until late in the season. Also I know there are complaints out there about Gasol and Noah not fitting well together, and I kind of agree, but again Thibodeau is the one who could've done more Taj-Gasol or Mirotic-Noah lineups, or hell bring Noah off the bench. He chose not to do so.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I respect your opinion but Thibs is so far from the problem. Hes not the reason the Bulls lost any of those playoff series, to even imply that hes the problem is just flat out wrong. 

We can go back and forth about what he could have done differently, but there should be no doubt in anyone's minds that there was nothing he could have done to win those series. Was he at times out coached? Sure. Everyone gets out-coached once in a while. But the fact still remains, he is the second greatest coach this franchise has ever had. 

So its time to move on. I think we both agree, and hopefully I hope the fan base agrees that its time for Garpax to leave to as well. Thibs can't be the only person in this franchise that has to be held accountable for the consistent trend of failing. It has to start at the top.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Yeah Thibs always gets the job done. Shame on the FO for letting this situation get so public where I'm sure it disrupted the team.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> I respect your opinion but Thibs is so far from the problem. Hes not the reason the Bulls lost any of those playoff series, to even imply that hes the problem is just flat out wrong.
> 
> We can go back and forth about what he could have done differently, but there should be no doubt in anyone's minds that there was nothing he could have done to win those series. Was he at times out coached? Sure. Everyone gets out-coached once in a while. But the fact still remains, he is the second greatest coach this franchise has ever had.
> 
> So its time to move on. I think we both agree, and hopefully I hope the fan base agrees that its time for Garpax to leave to as well. Thibs can't be the only person in this franchise that has to be held accountable for the consistent trend of failing. It has to start at the top.



It isn't GarPax's fault that Rose had multiple knee injuries and that Jo's may also be shot. That is the primary reason the Bulls have not been consistent contenders.

It's also not Thibs's fault, but he seems to have lost a good chunk of the team, and when that happens, it is time to go.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I've enjoyed reading the discussion here, Thibs is kind of a maddening character in a lot of ways. I think his positives outweigh his negatives, but he presents a frustrating series of weird dichotomies. He's obviously a very good coach and the 'defensive genius' label is pretty apt. He's also apparently an odd guy that has trouble relating to people. He has helped develop some quality players for us and has been able to turn injury-riddled teams into playoff teams... then again we've seen him get out-coached by Randy Wittman (and arguably Jason Kidd, others) in the playoffs. His players play hard for him, execute, and hustle... but on the other hand I've heard that his offensive play calls are so predictable, longstanding and routine that opposing NBA players know exactly what play is being run, know exactly where everyone is supposed to go, etc... Sometimes we execute so well that it doesn't matter, but I wasn't encouraged to hear that (I think I heard Jason Goff on 670 talking about a conversation he had with an opposing player, or scout, or something, so take that last bit with the appropriate grain of salt.). I'm not one to be bothered by his tendency to play guys big minutes... I don't think he's been as outrageous with it as some people think. That being said, I hate the adjustments he makes to the rotation come playoff time. All of the sudden guys are getting buried, starters aren't getting their usual rest, guys that were spark plugs during the regular season aren't getting their typical run at the end of the 1st and 3rd quarters (not just this season, though we did manage to turn Niko and Aaron Brooks into non-factors in the playoffs this year), we're doing odd things like playing Mike Dunleavy at the 4 for the first time all season, etc... 

I guess overall I'd still like him to stay... but that's almost more out of a fear that there may not be any better candidates on the market. We know Thibs isn't perfect, but we know he's very good at what he does. What do we know about Fred Hoiberg? Maybe he's the next great coach in Bulls history, I'm not ruling that out, but it is a pretty big question mark to tackle when you have a guy under contract that has won at a 53 win pace despite a myriad of injury issues.

If Thibodeau is fired/traded, etc... I'm pretty much with @thebizkit69u on being ready to clean out the entire front office. This shit with not being able to get along with coaches is getting old. Vinny Del ***** never should have been hired in the first place, that personnel decision alone shook my confidence in the current leadership. John Paxson also tried to choke him out. Literally. The only reason he seems to get a pass for that is because people generally thought Vinny Del ***** was an idiot. Now, he and Gar Forman can't seem to get along with Thibodeau. Not a good trend. They've secured some decent assets over the years but have also had their share of misses. Since Paxson's second season in the front office we've been competitive essentially the entire time... Forman is harder for me to judge because his tenure ('09-present) coincides with the Tom Thibodeau era. I also don't know who has done what between Paxson/Foreman during their respective times in the front office, what the division of work/power is. But if Tom Thibodeau is going to lose his job over this teams failure to get to a championship, I see no reason why Paxson and Forman shouldn't have to wear that as well.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I am somewhat holding off on front office discussion for the time being, because in my mind that is a far more convoluted topic. You've got Jerry Reinsdorf who is getting every closer to handing the reigns to his son Michael. Until that happens, I just can't see Jerry firing Paxson unless the team goes down the toilet. Fact of the matter is the team has been very competitive for the majority of Paxson's time here. Jerry views the Bulls franchise as business and seems to love Pax for that b/c it's kept the fans rolling in. 

With Gar, who knows...I have a feeling he would be fired well before Pax. I think it's hilarious we say "GarPax" did this and that (even I say this), yet we really have no idea what decisions are more Pax and which are more Gar. I have a feeling this is deliberate. Regardless, I see Gar as the obvious front office fall guy if things go south, which I am fine with. I am a far bigger fan of Paxson, who in spite of tie gate, I think he is a very smart guy and actually has ethics. (I think this is why he was so beaten down after a few years doing the job by himself). I am not so sure about Gar's ethics from what I have gathered; seems like a guy who doesn't mind doing questionable business tactics. 

In any case, when Michael Reinsdorf takes over the team, he seems like a very different personality from his father. More of a genuine love of the Bulls is what I've heard; not unlike how Jerry feels about the White Sox. I've no idea what Michael's relationship with Pax or Gar is, but I will say that with any sports franchise, any replacements at the top levels very often lead to changes at the bottom levels. A new owner often wants to bring in "his guys" to run the team. Then again this is all the Reinsdorf family so anything can happen.

Bottom line I think Gar and Pax are safe unless one or both of them have a PR disaster (something like tie gate part II), or the team just becomes seemingly hopeless (e.g., Jerry Krause 2003). And even if the latter happens, I could see Pax sticking around while Gar is the one let go and replaced.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Yep I've defended the FO long enough and I still stand by those decisions, but what they're doing with Thibodeau is enough for me to want them out the door ASAP.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I also find it funny that Thibs tenure has been heavily questioned/scrutinized for years now and yet Doc Rivers continues to get a pass by the media. Goes to show you that the Bulls front office has done a better job of getting their side of the story out there than Thibs. 

Thibs may be a complete weirdo, but hes been nothing but a pro since being HC. He easily could have gone to the media and put Garpax on blast, he EASILY could have and justifiably so lean on the fact that hes consistently coached injured teams in the playoffs. But no. Hes never leaned on any excuses. 

Do your job was his motto, and he never stopped doing his. Even when his players and front office did. 

Good luck to Thibs and I hope he finally coaches the superstar he deserves. Thibs with the Cavs would be epic.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> I also find it funny that Thibs tenure has been heavily questioned/scrutinized for years now and yet Doc Rivers continues to get a pass by the media. Goes to show you that the Bulls front office has done a better job of getting their side of the story out there than Thibs.
> 
> Thibs may be a complete weirdo, but hes been nothing but a pro since being HC.* He easily could have gone to the media and put Garpax on blast,* he EASILY could have and justifiably so lean on the fact that hes consistently coached injured teams in the playoffs. But no. Hes never leaned on any excuses.
> 
> ...


He did go to the media and put them on blast... Jeff Van Gundy was happy to oblige.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> I also find it funny that Thibs tenure has been heavily questioned/scrutinized for years now and yet Doc Rivers continues to get a pass by the media. Goes to show you that the Bulls front office has done a better job of getting their side of the story out there than Thibs.
> 
> Thibs may be a complete weirdo, but hes been nothing but a pro since being HC. He easily could have gone to the media and put Garpax on blast, he EASILY could have and justifiably so lean on the fact that hes consistently coached injured teams in the playoffs. But no. Hes never leaned on any excuses.
> 
> ...


If anything, it's Thibodeau who gets a pass from the media. The media is exceedingly kind to Thibs. Look no further than Adrian Wojnarowski and Jeff Van Gundy. Those guys are publicly slanting the Bulls front office as a Dr. Evil organization while Thibs is the good old boy who just wants to do his job well, but the mean old Bulls management won't let him. Please. It is true the Chicago beat writers have to keep a pro-front office spin, but even they tend to write about these topics in a non-controversial tone that avoids berating Thibs. Most commentary articles refer to Thibodeau as an "elite coach" too.

Thibodeau has a stellar work ethic, I don't deny that as he works 24-7 at his craft, but he also takes subtle actions that cross the line into unprofessionalism, IMO. A true professional will adhere to his leadership's requests, at least when they are reasonable requests like hiring an offensive oriented assistant coach or keeping certain guys' minutes in line. Why Thibodeau had to make a stink about these sorts of issues is ridiculous when they were clearly needed; even we as fans could see it, why couldn't Thibs? Because he is stubborn as they come.

Also I'm not about to credit him for opting not to publicly criticize his leadership, LOL. That is a legitimate sure-fire way to get fired in any organization, sports or not. Pretty much the golden rule of keeping your job.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

yodurk said:


> If anything, it's Thibodeau who gets a pass from the media. The media is exceedingly kind to Thibs. Look no further than Adrian Wojnarowski and Jeff Van Gundy. Those guys are publicly slanting the Bulls front office as a Dr. Evil organization while Thibs is the good old boy who just wants to do his job well, but the mean old Bulls management won't let him. Please. It is true the Chicago beat writers have to keep a pro-front office spin, but even they tend to write about these topics in a non-controversial tone that avoids berating Thibs. Most commentary articles refer to Thibodeau as an "elite coach" too.
> 
> Thibodeau has a stellar work ethic, I don't deny that as he works 24-7 at his craft, but he also takes subtle actions that cross the line into unprofessionalism, IMO. A true professional will adhere to his leadership's requests, at least when they are reasonable requests like hiring an offensive oriented assistant coach or keeping certain guys' minutes in line. Why Thibodeau had to make a stink about these sorts of issues is ridiculous when they were clearly needed; even we as fans could see it, why couldn't Thibs? Because he is stubborn as they come.
> 
> Also I'm not about to credit him for opting not to publicly criticize his leadership, LOL. That is a legitimate sure-fire way to get fired in any organization, sports or not. Pretty much the golden rule of keeping your job.


no its the FO that gets the pass .

very few people in front offices can physically attack someone that is a subordinate and keep their job, that is an offense that gets virtually everyone fired , and in sports especially which is a very public job i can think of no one who has engaged in tie-gate or a similar offense and not had only kept his job but with no significant repercussions.

when thibs doesn't something like that and nothing comes of it or anyone else for that matter and gets away scott free i'll reconsider my position.

there is the nearly killing of luol deng with a spinal tap 

playing asik on a broken leg.

the pre thib record of 274-298

dna gate

more than one person has put forth the theory that the bulls FO uses the medical staff in ways that are unethical.

the getting into the same problem with thibodeau as they did with del ***** over noah's minutes which are btw at the coach's discretion as minutes and strategy always are especially when a coach is established and experienced as thibs clearly is.

every couple of years there is a serious thing that paints the bulls org. as a top to bottom as a dysfunctional place to work that places the bulls at a supreme disadvantage when its time to get free agents that the bulls are seemingly always pining to get but never acquire.

in a player's league they are awkwardly fascist, in their minds visionary but reaching for things they shouldn't...and yes its not covered by the media but the players see it and that among other reasons is why they dont get the superstar every couple of years when they sell the fans on another rebuild for a player they have to know wont come.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> there is the nearly killing of luol deng with a spinal tap



To be fair, the Bulls had nothing to do with this one. Lu wasn't under the care of a team physician for the meningitis issue.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> I also find it funny that Thibs tenure has been heavily questioned/scrutinized for years now and yet Doc Rivers continues to get a pass by the media. Goes to show you that the Bulls front office has done a better job of getting their side of the story out there than Thibs.


Weird. I have seen a lot of Doc criticism this season, so I'm not sure where this sentiment is coming from. Maybe you don't notice it as much as you don't live in the LA market?




> Thibs may be a complete weirdo, but hes been nothing but a pro since being HC. He easily could have gone to the media and put Garpax on blast, he EASILY could have and justifiably so lean on the fact that hes consistently coached injured teams in the playoffs. But no. Hes never leaned on any excuses.
> 
> Do your job was his motto, and he never stopped doing his. Even when his players and front office did.


The one thing nobody will ever accuse Thibs of is lacking a work ethic. He clearly puts his job above everything else in life. So, that's great and all, but the question is whether he can be an effective coach for the Bulls moving forward, not whether he's a "pro" or relies on excuses, etc.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Da Grinch said:


> no its the FO that gets the pass .
> 
> very few people in front offices can physically attack someone that is a subordinate and keep their job, that is an offense that gets virtually everyone fired , and in sports especially which is a very public job i can think of no one who has engaged in tie-gate or a similar offense and not had only kept his job but with no significant repercussions.
> 
> when thibs doesn't something like that and nothing comes of it or anyone else for that matter and gets away scott free i'll reconsider my position.


This is Paxson's biggest mistake since joining the front office. He was lucky to not lose his job, but I wouldn't say he got off easy. 



> there is the nearly killing of luol deng with a spinal tap
> 
> playing asik on a broken leg.


These had nothing to do with the Bulls front office. Deng was in a public hospital for a medical condition unrelated to basketball. Asik had an issue that went undetected by an MRI. Unless Paxson or Gar like to screen MRIs in their spare time.



> the pre thib record of 274-298


After inheriting what exactly in 2003? And are you implying the Thibodeau era shouldn't count for some reason? Why not?



> dna gate


Cracking that open? Everyone acted within their rights on this thing and had good reason to do so. When a world renowned doctor tells you a DNA test can help inform whether a player should be playing professional basketball, I'm going to insist it's a good idea to take the damn test. Let's also not forget Paxson offered Eddy Curry a generous package if he failed the DNA test -- $500k per year for the rest of his life. Sign me up for that! Of course Eddy Curry declined the offer and maintained his rights, which is fine. Nobody got hurt in the end which is lucky as far as I'm concerned. 



> more than one person has put forth the theory that the bulls FO uses the medical staff in ways that are unethical.


"Put forth the theory" is a long shot from actual evidence. There was of course the Luol Deng leg fracture that was misdiagnosed a few years back, and yes the Bulls botched that one by taking the side of the doctor over how they player felt. I don't see many examples beyond that. If anything, they have leveraged the medical staff and Jen Swanson to overly protect players' health the past 2 seasons, not the other way around. 



> the getting into the same problem with thibodeau as they did with del ***** over noah's minutes which are btw at the coach's discretion as minutes and strategy always are especially when a coach is established and experienced as thibs clearly is.


The minutes limit should be up to the medical & training staff -- and it was in both of these cases, hence why there was dispute when the coach challenged it in some way. Either a player should be playing without restriction, playing with some restriction (minutes limit), or not playing at all. The training staff makes that decision. Even when a player is unrestricted, it doesn't mean it's a _good _decision to play that player as many minutes as you want, even if it's within his right to do so. It's not a stretch to believe Noah's physical decline this season was related to the large minutes he was playing the previous 2 seasons; a bad idea given his style of play going 100% effort all the time. And Noah's decline clearly hurt the Bulls badly in the playoffs; possibly cost a trip to the EC finals, or perhaps even the NBA Finals, assuming we might've had the Noah we saw last year rather than the one we actually got this year.



> every couple of years there is a serious thing that paints the bulls org. as a top to bottom as a dysfunctional place to work that places the bulls at a supreme disadvantage when its time to get free agents that the bulls are seemingly always pining to get but never acquire.


This just reemphasizes my claim above....The media is always ready and willing to viciously jump on the Bulls organization when there are issues. And for the record I am not claiming (not even close) the Bulls front office never makes mistakes, in fact I just cited a few in this post alone. However I *am *claiming the national media will always jump on those mistakes at a moment's notice and blow them up into a thing. I have suspected for years the media has a particular dislike for the Bulls organization due to Reinsdorf's unwillingness to cooperate with certain media outlets. There are accounts this sort of things happens, for example this article on how Wojnarowski gets his info by slanting pieces for/against certain teams in exchange for insider information: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/...basketballs-reporting-machine-gets-his-scoops



> in a player's league they are awkwardly fascist, in their minds visionary but reaching for things they shouldn't...and yes its not covered by the media but the players see it and that among other reasons is why they dont get the superstar every couple of years when they sell the fans on another rebuild for a player they have to know wont come.


This is being a tad bit dramatic, don't you think? Why ignore all the former players with nothing but love for the Bulls organization. I am not trying to paint the front office as a bunch of saints by any stretch, in fact I strongly suspect Gar Forman is a POS in alot of ways. But there are two sides to this, and the overall point here is the media slants heavily in one direction. In a league full of inflated egos and the harsh business pros sports typically is, there is plenty of blame to go around when these debacles happen.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> To be fair, the Bulls had nothing to do with this one. Lu wasn't under the care of a team physician for the meningitis issue.


luol deng does blame them one would have to assume he knows who's guilty and they have 15 practicing doctors in their staff and why have that many if you option out care.

also the bulls doctors did diagnose him with meningitis for which he was given that spinal tap that nearly killed him....a major problem since he did not have it.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

...


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## taco_daddy (Jun 13, 2004)

yodurk said:


> ...


!!!


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

The completely unnecessary veiled blasting by Reinsdorf was the cherry on the shit flavored sunday that was this Thibs vs Garpax situation.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/id/12890745/tom-thibodeau-tenure-chicago-bulls



> April 16, 2014 -- Gar loses patience
> 
> It's the last game of the regular season, and the Chicago Bulls are in Charlotte, North Carolina. Injured, Derrick Rose watches from the bench in a sharp gray suit. But the remaining Bulls turn in a gritty effort, typical of the Thibodeau era, building a 10-point second-quarter lead over the team then still known as the Bobcats.
> 
> ...





> May 2, 2014 -- The whiff of a rift
> 
> ESPN.com reports that the Los Angeles Lakers plan to ask the Bulls for permission to interview Thibodeau for their open coaching position (which ultimately would go to Byron Scott).
> 
> ...





> Summer 2014 -- The edict
> 
> Thibodeau never subscribed to the notion of resting players for the sake of resting them, believing that players prepare themselves for the grind of the season, a lesson he learned, at least in part, from one of his coaching mentors -- Jeff Van Gundy. He also believed that games were never fully in control, and usually scoffed at the feeling that players should be taken out of games that appeared to be blowouts, even when Noah and Rose were both coming off major injuries.
> 
> ...





> Strong start
> 
> The Bulls started off the 2014-2015 regular season in style. They had championship expectations with Rose back in the fold -- bolstered by the belief that their roster was deeper than it had been in years. Forman and Paxson had found players such as Butler and European sensation Nikola Mirotic (with the help of Director of International Scouting Ivica Dukan) late in the first round of the NBA draft. After missing out on Carmelo Anthony in free agency during the summer, the Bulls made a hard, and successful, push to sign veteran Pau Gasol. It gave the organization the type of back-to-the-basket scorer Chicago had hoped Carlos Boozer would be during Thibodeau's first season.
> 
> ...



truth be told garpax undermined thibs quite a bit a prospective coach would have to look at not just thibs situation but del *****'s and skiles, heck even cartwright ,you can go much further back to jackson and collins if you want to say this starts with reinsdorf ...it doesn't paint a pretty picture.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Let's also go WAY back to when Reinsdorf undermined the then successful Scott Skiles when they forced Ben Wallace into that locker-room and in doing so completely signaled the end of Skiles who wanted nothing to do with Wallace. 

Garpax and Reinsdorf are soo desperate to want recognition from the fanbase that they are continuing to put its hands in coaching decisions. Stuff that I always felt the front office should avoid doing, unless THEY WANT to coach the team themselves. 

Also, there was a rumor that the Bulls wanted Thibs to bring on Doug Collins on his staff... Thats just going above and beyond in trying to undermine their own coach.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> The completely unnecessary veiled blasting by Reinsdorf was the cherry on the shit flavored sunday that was this Thibs vs Garpax situation.


Admittedly, I was wrong the Bulls did not take the high road on Reinsdorf's press release as I thought they would. Reinsdorf basically said out right that Thibodeau was not a team player with other parts of the organization and accused him of leaking stuff to the press. 

As hardcore fans we see this as unnecessary and perhaps it was. From Reinsdorf's perspective, I believe he felt the need to justify the move to the more general fan base. 

I am just glad the move is done and we can move on. You can bet the farm the Bulls are looking for a coach they can work alot more easily with on day to day matters, whether that be Hoiberg or someone else.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

taco_daddy said:


> !!!


I was going to say something, but silence says it all. :laugh:


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Also, there was a rumor that the Bulls wanted Thibs to bring on Doug Collins on his staff... Thats just going above and beyond in trying to undermine their own coach.


Debunked yesterday by KC. Check his Twitter. This was Cowley garbage.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

while I can understand that the cowley point is probably overblown, you also can't just pass off the fact that one of Reinsdorfs best friends called Thibs out of the blue as just a coincident.


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