# Dirk or Jermaine



## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Which player do you think is better, Dirk Nowitzki or Jermaine O'Neal. Personally i'll take Dirk but I can see the reasonin if you want to take Jermaine


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## AMR (Oct 5, 2003)

this isn't the first thread about it...

I think that they're at the same level.. so it would depend on what I want for my team


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

I feel like having a debate though.


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## ljt (May 24, 2003)

Dirk!


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## OG (Aug 12, 2003)

Dirk thinks he's a SF. I'd take JO any day, in fact I'd take Jermaine over most players.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Dirk started off his career as a SF? I think? Besides he could be a MVP candidate at SF aswell. Really, you'll take Jermaine "43%" O'Neal over most players?


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## AMR (Oct 5, 2003)

Dirk has some bad things, but Jermaine is too unidimensional... he can get stuck playing against some defenses..

But both are great players


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## OG (Aug 12, 2003)

Yeah, I would. 
I'm not saying he's the best in the league, or even top 10, but he's the kind of player I'd love to start a team around. 
Great size, long, agile, can score, rebound and block a nice number of shots. 
I'm a huge Zo fan, he does similar things with less intensity. 
Give me a nice PF/C & a PG over a Kobe/Tmac/VC/Pierce everytime.

Dirk is great, no question about that, just not my kind of player.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Im a fan of JO but theres one thing I hate about his game, inconsistency. Dirk seems like Mr. Consistent compared to JO and Jermaine isnt as good an offensive player.

Dirks offense makes up for his average defense more than JOs defense makes up for his ok offense


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Although Dirk can't defend a chair, i'd take him over Jermaine.

Dirk's offensive exploits are simply too great to pass. in fact, i believe he is the most dangerous offensive weapon on the entire league. Therefore...


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

Alot of people hate on Dirks defense, but while he is no Bill Russell, he does play "around-average" defense.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Yeah, althought blocks and steals doesnt mean hes a great defender it does count for *something*. Dirk is above average in pretty much both categories


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## Kicito (Jun 3, 2003)

I'd rather have JO. He's a real big man who play like a big and he's a better defender. Last season, he had an "off-year" FG wise, he usually shoots around .47 - .48, so I think next year it'll be back to the normal. Dirk he's a great player but i'm not a great fan of 3-point shooter when i'm talking about bigmen.


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## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Really, you'll take Jermaine "43%" O'Neal over most players?


I'd take Jermaine "I know how to defend someone" O'Neal


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

I would take Jermaine O'Neal, I want my Power Foward to be a post player.


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## Ryoga (Aug 31, 2002)

I think that Jermaine passed Webber as the most overated player in the NBA.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

JO is a good player, but IMO he's more a C than a PF.

I prefer Dirk, a modern PF with very good offensive skills.

Some years ago in Europe we were calling this kind of PF "atypical", but now here the 90% of the PF have a good if not excellent perimeter shoot.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

If any NBA team could ever establish a solid and consistent zone defense, Dirk would quickly become a legit MVP candidate. Unfortunetly, that whole 3 second rule prevents a team from developing a good zone defense. 

I'd probably take Dirk anyways.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

Jermaine O'Neal, pretty easily. Dirk's a better scorer, but that's the only area I really consider him superior to O'Neal. Both are good rebounders, O'Neal is a better offensive rebounder though. O'Neal has a better post up game. He's a better man to man defender, he's a better help defender, he's a much better blocker. I consider Jermaine to be the second best defensive PF behind Garnett. Dirk is all right, in that he sort of tries, maybe when they get rid of his horrible coach he'll start to look better on the defensive end. I don't think Dirk's superiority in scoring, as great as it is, makes up for J-O's more "all-around" game, and doing the things that PFs are supposed to do.


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## BenDengGo (Feb 1, 2004)

dirk


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

JO easily. Im not a fan of this new wave of big men who act more like an overgrown shooting guard than a real big man. Your backcourt is supposed to be doing the shooting, and your big men are supposed to be banging down low. I keep hearing that Dirk is an average defender, which he is not. Hes one of the worst defending big me who start in the league today, and that is not average.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> Your backcourt is supposed to be doing the shooting, and your big men are supposed to be banging down low.


If a big man is able to shoot well the 3, why he can't do that ? he can become a danger offensive gun, look Galanda what did VS U.S. (6/8 from 3).

Gretz


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>italianBBlover</b>!
> 
> 
> If a big man is able to shoots well the 3, why he can't do that ? he can become a danger offensive gun, look Galanda what did VS U.S. (6/8 from 3).
> ...



FIBA is not the same as the NBA game. Look at all recent champions, outside of maybe Detroit, and of course the Bulls with Jordan, 9 out of 10 championships are won with a strong big man who dominates the paint on both ends of the floor. Not a big man whos pearched out at the 3 line leaving easy rebounds for the other team.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> FIBA is not the same as the NBA game. Look at all recent champions, outside of maybe Detroit, and of course the Bulls with Jordan, 9 out of 10 championships are won with a strong big man who dominates the paint on both ends of the floor. Not a big man whos pearched out at the 3 line leaving easy rebounds for the other team.


Right, but Dirk is a matchup nightmare nevertheless. He gets guys like Duncan and KG out of hte post leaving the paint open for cutters. You see, guys like Duncan have to guard Dirk outside because if they stay in the post, he'll rain 3's on their team all day. Yet if they put a smaller perimeter defender on him, he'll... rain 3's on him all day. He is one of the best pick and roll player in the NBA because he creates so many bad matchups since he can shoot off hte pass or dribble from outside, or midrange, post up, and occasionally score off the drive.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Now that the Mavs have a good defensive center, Dirk will seem much better on defense. I predict him to get more MVP votes than JO


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

I'd take Jermaine, he's a better shotblocker than Dirk, a better player in the post, and better shotblocker. If I want a guy that'll shoot a lot of 3's, drive to the basket, and can't defend at all, I'd just go with a guard.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

What about a guy who creates huge mismatches for the opposition, draws a body out of the post, can single handedly win a game who is very versatile. Dirk is actually a great passer aswell


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

According to 82games.com 73% of O'Neal's shots are jump shots, and 83% of Nowitzki's shots are jump shots. Power forwards such as Brand or Stoudemire have percentages around 55. So when compared to all other power forwards, O'Neal, too, is a weaksauce jump shooter who shoots 37.8% on his jumpshots, while Dirk is an effective jump shooter who shoots 46.9% on his jump shots.


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

I would go with oneal in this one, although dirk averages more points jermaine averages more rebounds blocks and with the exeception of last years fg percentage normally averages about 48 percent field goal percentage. I also believe that oneals points per game will increase next year because carlisle is possibly changing his half court offensive philosophy slightly, raising scoring opportunities.
Scoring= Dirk
Overall=Oneal
Oneal>Dirk


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Dont you think Dirks points will go up? He has Jamison and Walker gone and only Stackhouse who has already said he'd be fine with playing the 6th man role and he knows that he's the 6th man. This years team is more based around 1 player, not 5 like last year. Dirk is undoubtedly the man this year and his stats will go up. A Pacers player doesnt even think that JO was the best player on the team


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

Artest was outta line without JO the pacers wouldnt go very far Artest says whatever pops into his mind... he is a great player tho


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## Zach (May 11, 2003)

The Diggler


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## HippieHair33 (Jul 16, 2004)

jermaine because he plays better defense...


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Dont you think Dirks points will go up? He has Jamison and Walker gone and only Stackhouse who has already said he'd be fine with playing the 6th man role and he knows that he's the 6th man. This years team is more based around 1 player, not 5 like last year. Dirk is undoubtedly the man this year and his stats will go up. A Pacers player doesnt even think that JO was the best player on the team


Ever think Dirk's points might go down with the significant amount of more pressure, and the many, many more shots and misses he'll have?



> According to 82games.com 73% of O'Neal's shots are jump shots, and 83% of Nowitzki's shots are jump shots. Power forwards such as Brand or Stoudemire have percentages around 55. So when compared to all other power forwards, O'Neal, too, is a weaksauce jump shooter who shoots 37.8% on his jumpshots, while Dirk is an effective jump shooter who shoots 46.9% on his jump shots.


When you consider that about 99% of JO's jumpshots are from 12-16 feet, and Dirk's are from anywhere from 18-30 feet, doesn't that make Dirk much less of a PF than Jermaine?

Jermaine took a lot more jumpshots this year compared to last, manly because Indy didn't have any big man that could step out to hit a jumpshot when left wide. Brad Miller was a great compliment to JO on offense, because of the fact that he could hit a wide jumpshot. Jeff Foster has been working on it, to where he'll hit about 1 out of 3, but it still isn't enough.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Ever think Dirk's points might go down with the significant amount of more pressure, and the many, many more shots and misses he'll have?


Yes, Ever think that Jermaine will have another one of those 43% seasons


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> Yes, Ever think that Jermaine will have another one of those 43% seasons


Probably, until we get a reliable 2nd option that can drive in and shoot the 3 consistently. Jeff has been working on his J, but really, I'd rather have both him and JO on the inside. If only Scot Pollard had a jumpshot.:laugh: 

BTW, you still have 5 stars from me, you're putting up one hell of an arguement.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Probably, until we get a reliable 2nd option that can drive in and shoot the 3 consistently. Jeff has been working on his J, but really, I'd rather have both him and JO on the inside. If only Scot Pollard had a jumpshot.:laugh:


I dont really understand that. This is going in my threads to bump thread 



> BTW, you still have 5 stars for me, you're putting up one hell of an arguement.


Thanks, are you being serious


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont really understand that. This is going in my threads to bump thread


:uhoh:





> Thanks, are you being serious


Yes, yes I am.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Jermaine O'Neal
- 78 games this years with 35.7 minutes per game
- 43%FG and 11% 3PT, 76%FT
- 20.1 Points Per Game
- 10 Rebounds Per Game
- 2.1 Assists Per Game
- .76 Steals per game
- 2.55 Blocks Per Game
- 3.20 Fouls Per Game
- 2.32 Turnovers Per Game
- 44 Double Doubles
*Playoff Stats* 
- 16 games with 37.5mpg
- 42%FG, 0% 3pt and 70%FT
- 19.2 Points Per Game
- 9.1 Rebounds Per Game
- 1.2 Assists Per Game
- .5 Steals Per Game
- 2.25 Blocks Per Game
- 1.8 Turnovers Per Game
- 3.80 Fouls Per Game 
*Pros*
Lead Indiana to the Best Record in the League and to the Conference Finals. 
3rd in MVP Voting and a perennial candidate for Defensive Player of The Year. 
Monster at blocking shots and is only turning 26 this year.
*Cons* 
Can be very inconsistent and every so often has games that you wouldn't write home about. 
This year he scored under 20 points 38 times and got under 10 rebounds 43 times. 
Isnt as consisten in the Post-Season as he should be
Horrible FG% for a post player


Dirk Nowitzki
- Played 77 games and averaged 37.9 MPG
- 46%FG, 34%3PT and 88%FT
- 21.8 Points Per Game
- 8.70 Rebounds Per Game
- 2.7 Assists Per Game
- 1.2 Steals Per Game
- 1.35 Blocks Per Game
- 1.75 Turnovers Per Game
- 2.80 Fouls Per Game
- 31 Double Doubles
*Playoffs* 
- Only Played 5 games and averaged 42.4 MPG
- 45%FG, 47%3Pt and 86%FT
- 26.6 Points Per Game
- 11.8 Rebounds Per Game
- 1.4 Assists Per Game
- 1.4 Steals Per Game
- 2.6 Blocks Per Game
- 1.20 Turnovers Per Game
- 3.20 Fouls Per Game

*Pros* 
Dirk is one of the best players in the NBA at creating his own shot, he can shoot the 3 if needed against smaller opponents and can drive against bigger slower opponents. Around the Same age as Jermaine Oneal.
Dirk averaged 21.8 points per game on a team with 4 other players averaging over 10 points. 
Next year Dirks stats will go up because he will undoubtedly be the best player on his team and everyone should know that. 
Is a great Postseason performer with one of the Strongest Playoff stats this year.
*Cons* 
Dirk isnt a great defender. he's average at best. 
Got under 20 points 28 times and under 10 rebounds 46 times. 
Dirk is not the greatest of rebounders but it a work in Progress

*Jermaine O'Neal*
Under 20 points: 38
Under 10 Rebounds: 43

*Dirk Nowitzki* 
Under 20 Points: 28
Under 10 Rebounds: 46


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> :uhoh:


Threads to bump





> Yes, yes I am.


Your getting 5 stars aswell


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

Jermaine O'Neal
- *78 games this years* with *35.7 minutes per game*
- 43%FG and 11% 3PT, 76%FT
- 20.1 Points Per Game
- *10 Rebounds Per Game*
- 2.1 Assists Per Game
- .76 Steals per game
- *2.55 Blocks Per Game*
- 3.20 Fouls Per Game
- 2.32 Turnovers Per Game
- *44 Double Doubles
Playoff Stats 
- 16 games with 37.5mpg
- 42%FG, 0% 3pt and 70%FT
- 19.2 Points Per Game
- 9.1 Rebounds Per Game
- 1.2 Assists Per Game
- .5 Steals Per Game
- 2.25 Blocks Per Game
- 1.8 Turnovers Per Game
- 3.80 Fouls Per Game 
Pros
Lead Indiana to the Best Record in the League and to the Conference Finals. 
3rd in MVP Voting and a perennial candidate for Defensive Player of The Year. 
Monster at blocking shots and is only turning 26 this year.
Cons 
Can be very inconsistent and every so often has games that you wouldn't write home about. 
This year he scored under 20 points 38 times and got under 10 rebounds 43 times. 
Isnt as consisten in the Post-Season as he should be
Horrible FG% for a post player


Dirk Nowitzki
- Played 77 games and averaged 37.9 MPG
- 46%FG, 34%3PT and 88%FT
- 21.8 Points Per Game
- 8.70 Rebounds Per Game
- 2.7 Assists Per Game
- 1.2 Steals Per Game
- 1.35 Blocks Per Game
- 1.75 Turnovers Per Game
- 2.80 Fouls Per Game
- 31 Double Doubles
Playoffs 
- Only Played 5 games and averaged 42.4 MPG
- 45%FG, 47%3Pt and 86%FT
- 26.6 Points Per Game
- 11.8 Rebounds Per Game
- 1.4 Assists Per Game
- 1.4 Steals Per Game
- 2.6 Blocks Per Game
- 1.20 Turnovers Per Game
- 3.20 Fouls Per Game

Pros 
Dirk is one of the best players in the NBA at creating his own shot, he can shoot the 3 if needed against smaller opponents and can drive against bigger slower opponents. Around the Same age as Jermaine Oneal.
Dirk averaged 21.8 points per game on a team with 4 other players averaging over 10 points. 
Next year Dirks stats will go up because he will undoubtedly be the best player on his team and everyone should know that. 
Is a great Postseason performer with one of the Strongest Playoff stats this year.
Cons 
Dirk isnt a great defender. he's average at best. 
Got under 20 points 28 times and under 10 rebounds 46 times. 
Dirk is not the greatest of rebounders but it a work in Progress

Jermaine O'Neal
Under 20 points: 38 (Jermaine averages around 20-21ppg, so he should go under a lot less than Dirk; only 11 times less did he go over 20 points, which is pretty good got a guy that aveages around 20-21ppg
Under 10 Rebounds: 43

Dirk Nowitzki 
Under 20 Points: 28
Under 10 Rebounds: 46 

I had more but this got deleted because of all the people on.*


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> *Jermaine O'Neal
> Under 20 points: 38 (Jermaine averages around 20-21ppg, so he should go under a lot less than Dirk; only 11 times less did he go over 20 points, which is pretty good got a guy that aveages around 20-21ppg*
> Under 10 Rebounds: 43
> ...


Please do it again. Dirk only averaged 21.8 ppg. Whats your point?


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Please do it again. Dirk only averaged 21.8 ppg. Whats your point?


Wow, I thought Dirk averaged around 25-26ppg(my fault for not reading thoroughly), I can't believe how close at scoring Jermaine is when he averages 2.2 less minutes and is considered a much worse scorer. This changes my whole concept on how much better Jermaine is than Dirk.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow, I thought Dirk averaged around 25-26ppg(my fault for not reading thoroughly), I can't believe how close at scoring Jermaine is when he averages 2.2 less minutes and is considered a much worse scorer. This changes my whole concept on how much better Jermaine is than Dirk.


Dirk had to share the ball with ALOT more scorers than JO, look for it this year to be 25-26


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Dirk had to share the ball with ALOT more scorers than JO, look for it this year to be 25-26


And also look for his FG% to go down more. What's sad is that Dallas still has more has scorers than Indiana, but the Pacers will likely be better, still. Don't forget that also, Dirk should have more assists since he had better scorers, right? Per48 minutes he only averages .6 more. I sense a ballhog.

Per48 minute stats

Jermaine 27pts 2.8asts 13.4rbs 4.3PFs 3.1TO's 3.4blks 1.02spg

Dirk 27.7pts 3.4asts 11rbs 3.6PFs 2.2TO's 1.7bpg 1.51spg

Notice how Dirk wins most of the stats by small margins, but the two Jermaine wins, Dirk is blown out of the water.

Dallas also had no rebounders last year, with Erick Dampier (if he tries just a little) Dirk's rebounds and blocks will go down significantly.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

We've been on offense for most of this, how about talking about Dirk's defense? He's not any good at perimeter defense or post defense, he's decent at blocks, and decent at steals. His lateral movement is near null, as is his strength. While Jermaine, is good at post defense (though not great), can sometimes actually guard a perimeter player for a few seconds, but he's very foul-prone out there, he is a great shotblocker, one of the best in the league, unlike most who are best at weakside shotblocking, Jermaine is equally as good or better at post shotblocking (where he probably gets most of his fouls). For a big man, he is also pretty decent at stealing. He does try too hard to go for a steal sometimes, leading to a foul call. Here's a quick summary:

Overall Defense: Jermaine>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dirk

Post Offense: Jermaine>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dirk

Perimeter Offense: Dirk>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jermaine

Which leads to one thinking that Jermaine is better overall than Dirk.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

JO takes too many jump shots because he would rather fade away when faced with defensive pressure. I think it is a bad habit he developed from starting in the league so young. He didn't have the strength to get his shot off so he learned to fade away. Now that he is a man, he still uses it as a crutch.

Right now I would take Dirk, but that is only because of the pre-Olympic game against the US team. I had never seen Dirk show such energy in leading his team back and wanting and making the big shots. That was the first time I had seen either of them act like a leader.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> And also look for his FG% to go down more. What's sad is that Dallas still has more has scorers than Indiana, but the Pacers will likely be better, still. Don't forget that also, Dirk should have more assists since he had better scorers, right? Per48 minutes he only averages .6 more. I sense a ballhog.


He's not a ballhog, more scorers on the team means Nashes assists will go up, not neccesarily Dirk. Dirk still got a .6 more of an assist. Of course the Pacers will be better, you are much better defenders



> Per48 minute stats
> 
> Jermaine 27pts 2.8asts 13.4rbs 4.3PFs 3.1TO's 3.4blks 1.02spg
> 
> ...


Dirk may have lost the two categories but look many others he won. 




> Dallas also had no rebounders last year, with Erick Dampier (if he tries just a little) Dirk's rebounds and blocks will go down significantly.


Walker - 8 rebs, Jamison - 7 rebs, Finley and Daniels roughly 5 rebs. Dallas averaged 43.5 rebounds per game, Indiana averaged 40.1


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>
> Post Offense: Jermaine>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dirk


Except when there is a tough defender on Jermaine. Then he defaults to the fade away. For Jermaine to take the next step, he should watch film of Brand and watch how he gets the ball off in traffic.

This debate just shows how great the Power Forward position is in the NBA. Right now it is my favorite position because the top 15 are all different and have unique styles.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> Overall Defense: Jermaine>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dirk
> 
> Post Offense: Jermaine>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dirk
> ...


How about a few of these stats.

All per 100 possesions

When Dirk is on the floor Dallas averages 115.6 pts but when he's off the floor they only average 109.4. Which is +6.2

When JO is on the floor Indiana gives up 98.7 pts but when he's off they average 101.7. Which is - 3.7.
*Advantage team offense: Dirk*

When Dirk is on the floor Dallas gives up 108.6pts but when he's off they average 110pts. Which is -1.4

Now when JO is on the floor Indiana averages 107.2 pts but when he's off they average 102.9. Which is +4.4
*Advantage team defense: Dirk*


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## KingJ (Mar 18, 2004)

Haha... Who said that Dirk should tally more assist total because his teammates are scoring? Have he heard of Steven Nash?


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>KingJ</b>!
> Haha... Who said that Dirk should tally more assist total because his teammates are scoring? Have he heard of Steven Nash?


Thats what I said, Nashs assists went up 1.5 per game this year. From 7.3 to 8.8


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> He's not a ballhog, more scorers on the team means Nashes assists will go up, not neccesarily Dirk. Dirk still got a .6 more of an assist. Of course the Pacers will be better, you are much better defenders


If Dirk wasn't a ballhog, wouldn't he have passed the ball to his teammates? Look how they did when he didn't........




> Dirk may have lost the two categories but look many others he won.


Missed the entire point there didn't ya?






> 8 rebs, Jamison - 7 rebs, Finley and Daniels roughly 5 rebs. Dallas averaged 43.5 rebounds per game, Indiana averaged 40.1


That still means that Dirk is the leading rebounder for the Mavericks.



> All per 100 possesions
> 
> When Dirk is on the floor Dallas averages 115.6 pts but when he's off the floor they only average 109.4. Which is +6.2
> 
> ...


I don't get what you're trying to show, what you are showing, who you are showing this against, what this is showing against, and if I knew anything more I'd have even more questions. lol



> Except when there is a tough defender on Jermaine. Then he defaults to the fade away. For Jermaine to take the next step, he should watch film of Brand and watch how he gets the ball off in traffic.


I know, Jermaine needs to work on this, but this also adds to his perimeter offense, where he can hit the jumpshot very well for a big man. What are Dirk's post strengths against players bigger than 6'6'' 225?




> Right now I would take Dirk, but that is only because of the pre-Olympic game against the US team.


What I saw there didn't exactly make me think of Dirk any higher, but lower. He is a great player, but he needs to realize that he has teammates. I've seen him on the German team and the Mavericks, where he'll just run up and take a 3 ala Steve Nash or Jason Williams, where he could've just passed the ball to an open teammate.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

Dirk by a fair amount , Once jermaine gets his touch down and his fg percent up then mabye ill take him


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> If Dirk wasn't a ballhog, wouldn't he have passed the ball to his teammates? Look how they did when he didn't........


Not necesarily, Nash had an extra 1.5 assist a game 






> Missed the entire point there didn't ya?


Probably






> That still means that Dirk is the leading rebounder for the Mavericks.


Yes it does, but you said the Mavs didnt have very good rebounders and I said that Dallas averaged more rebounds than Indiana. Dirk will get some of those 15 or so rebounds left by Jamison and Walker





> I don't get what you're trying to show, what you are showing, who you are showing this against, what this is showing against, and if I knew anything more I'd have even more questions. lol


:laugh: What im showing is that Dirk is more important to the Mavs than JO is to Indiana. Per 100 possesions, Dallas scored an extra 6 points when Dirk was on and Indiana only scored and extra 4 points when JO was on. Per 100 possesions of defense, Dirk was still more important than JO




> What I saw there didn't exactly make me think of Dirk any higher, but lower. He is a great player, but he needs to realize that he has teammates. I've seen him on the German team and the Mavericks, where he'll just run up and take a 3 ala Steve Nash or Jason Williams, where he could've just passed the ball to an open teammate.*who would of missed*


He scored 32 points though, his teammates *couldnt* hit those shots, Dirk was forced to do everything for that German team. They all sucked


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

All per 100 possesions

When Dirk is on the floor Dallas averages 115.6 pts but when he's off the floor they only average 109.4. Which is +6.2

When JO is on the floor Indiana gives up 98.7 pts but when he's off they average 101.7. Which is - 3.7.
Advantage team offense: Dirk

I dont reall understand this stat but go to these two sites:

Jermaine O'Neal 

Dirk Nowitzki 

It shows Dirk has an advantage over JO


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## Pejavlade (Jul 10, 2004)

id take dirk becaues not many players cant contain him, hes and excellent shooter and good rebounder. IF he improved his defence a little he could be one of the prime players top 5 in the L


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pejavlade</b>!
> id take dirk becaues not many players cant contain him, hes and excellent shooter and good rebounder. IF he improved his defence a little he could be one of the prime players top 5 in the L


If any at all can contain him. Dirk needs to hit the weights and get tough. Dirk could be a prime candidate to take Shaqs place in the top 5


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## LuckyAC (Aug 12, 2004)

Well, I might take O'Neal over the Dirk of last year, but that was really an off year, his scoring went down from 25 ppg to 22 ppg, his rebounds from 10 to 8.7. his 3pt % went down and his team did much worse. However, I expect Dirk to be better this year(he had some nagging injuries I think?), so I would take him. 

Don't forgot that FG% is far from telling how big the difference in efficiency is. Dirk takes many more three pointers... if that is factored in, Dirk shoots more than 50% to JO's mere 43%, and Dirk's last four seasons he shot considerably better. The main reason that it is better to score inside is that you presumably shoot a higher percentage from close, however that is clearly not the case here.

Other reasons to play inside are to draw fouls, but Dirk does that just as well, and to get offensive rebounds, which JO admittedly does do somewhat better. Lastly there is the concept of spreading the floor with an inside-outside game, but Dirk's offense is so much more dangerous and dynamic than JO's, that he opens up more opportunites for his teammates anyway.

Dirk is definitely far more clutch than JO. He averages 7 or 8 more ppg in the playoffs than the regular season, with many huge games, and his team has been reasonably successful in the tough West, while Indiana has a history of playoff failure, without JO doing much. Dirk is also heroic for team Germany, like his performance against the USA.

Dirk has looked very good recently, perhaps better than ever, in international play and if he returns to form with a 26-27 ppg season on great efficiency, than his defensive deficiencies will be more than compensated for by being one of the four most dangerous offensive players in the game, along with Kobe, Shaq and TMac(and not necessarily worse than any of them).


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## Vanapagan (Aug 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> When you consider that about 99% of JO's jumpshots are from 12-16 feet, and Dirk's are from anywhere from 18-30 feet, doesn't that make Dirk much less of a PF than Jermaine?


I dont know about you, but when somebody hits jumpers from 18-30 feet with 46.9% fgp, then i consider him better that someone who hits jumpers from 12-16 feet with 37.8% fgp.



> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> Jermaine took a lot more jumpshots this year compared to last, manly because Indy didn't have any big man that could step out to hit a jumpshot when left wide.


...while Dallas had such stud big men like Najera and Danny Fortson


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Dirk started off his career as a SF? I think? Besides he could be a MVP candidate at SF aswell. Really, you'll take Jermaine "43%" O'Neal over most players?


Hey. I copyrighted 'Jermaine "43%" O'Neal'.

I expect a quarter to be sent to me ASAP.

Anyway, I'll take Ridirkulous because I believe he is practically a once-in-a-decade offensive player. You just don't pass that up. Not even for Shaq, evidently.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey. I copyrighted 'Jermaine "43%" O'Neal'.
> ...


Actually I made up Ridirkulous the same day I made up LeBronze, Crymelo, Gollum, I even told the announcers to call it bruise a bruce and hack a shaq. I knew i'd heard ridirkulous somewhere else and I thought it was on realGM.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually I made up Ridirkulous the same day I made up LeBronze, Crymelo, Gollum, I even told the announcers to call it bruise a bruce and hack a shaq. I knew i'd heard ridirkulous somewhere else and I thought it was on realGM.


Silly satire. I know for a fact I was the first person to say Jermaine "43%"O'Neal on this board, and it was very recently as well.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Silly satire. I know for a fact I was the first person to say Jermaine "43%"O'Neal on this board, and it was very recently as well.


I honestly didnt know that, sorry. Do you want me to change the post to Jermaine "I hit 4.3 shots from 10" O'Neal or Jermaine "fourtythreepercent" O'Neal


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> Anyway, I'll take Ridirkulous because I believe he is practically a once-in-a-decade offensive player. You just don't pass that up.


Hey, I agree with spriggan9!

Jermaine O'Neal is a nice talent, but nothing special in the grand scheme of things. Just a very good big man, in just about every facet. Love to have him on a team.

But Nowitzki is going to go down as one of the great offensive players, in my opinion. He might just be the best offensive player in the game today. His shot is incredible, he has the size to get it off over anyone and the agility to attack the hoop. Putting that scoring skillset in a body that tall is almost unfair.

His defense is what prevents him from challenging as the best player in the game. It's not very good defense. It's not non-existant, as the hype goes, but it's below average for an elite player.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey, I agree with spriggan9!
> ...


Imagine if Dirk worked on his defense till it was at the level of even KMart, how freakishly good would he be. Who do you think the best offensive players are from the past 14 years


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> I honestly didnt know that, sorry. Do you want me to change the post to Jermaine "I hit 4.3 shots from 10" O'Neal or Jermaine "fourtythreepercent" O'Neal


You can use Jermaine "A PF/C getting 20 ppg on 43% shooting is an MVP candidate?" O'Neal.



> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey, I agree with spriggan9!


I think we tend to agree on most topics, Minister El.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

And here's LE PROOF, Theo:

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=1526405#post1526405


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Spriggzmeister, your pretty crafty


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> Who do you think the best offensive players are from the past 14 years


Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'Neal
Karl Malone
Dominique Wilkins
David Robinson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Dirk Nowitzki
Tracy McGrady
Kobe Bryant


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## JazzMan (Feb 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Michael Jordan
> ...


No Chris Dudley??


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>JazzMan</b>!
> 
> 
> No Chris Dudley??


Chris Dudley got nothing on Shawn Bradley


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

For those of you wondering how 21 ppg makes Dirk an offensive powerhouse, keep in mind that last season seemed to be a fluke. In the previous seasons he raised his ppg every year and reached as high as 26 ppg. His playoff stats and shooting percentage are also a good indicator of his offensive prowess.


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## Jermaniac Fan (Jul 27, 2003)

- Dirk's defence sucks... but his shooting skills has impressed me!
- Jermaine has improved his shooting range and he is great defender too! 

So I would choose Jermaine over Nowitzki to my team! Even I come from Europe


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Another thing i noticed in Dirk's basketballreference.com stats profile :
he seems to step up his game when it counts the most - playoffs.
That's an admirable virtue, IMHO...


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> I'd take Jermaine, he's a better shotblocker than Dirk, a better player in the post, and better shotblocker. If I want a guy that'll shoot a lot of 3's, drive to the basket, and can't defend at all, I'd just go with a guard.


That's pretty much what I'd have to say. Pluse Jermaine has won most of their head-to-head matchups.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> That's pretty much what I'd have to say. Pluse Jermaine has won most of their head-to-head matchups.


Last year vs Dallas

Jermaine O'Neal

16 points, 9 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 fouls, 1 steal, 4 turnovers, 4 blocks on 6-16 shooting

Dirk Nowitzki vs Indiana

21 points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 fouls, 1 steal, 2 turnovers, 3 blocks on 7-20 shooting


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> And also look for his FG% to go down more. What's sad is that Dallas still has more has scorers than Indiana, but the Pacers will likely be better, still. Don't forget that also, Dirk should have more assists since he had better scorers, right? Per48 minutes he only averages .6 more. I sense a ballhog.
> ...


dude what the heck are you talking about? The mavs were SECOND in the entire nba in REBOUNDING LAST YEAR and were first in in offensive rebounding

the mavs had SIX guys that averaged AT LEAST 4.5 boards last year. They were a deep team on the front line as well. 

dirk has stepped it up IN THE PLAYOFFS against some of the best PFS in the league and torched them ALL

Dirk has put up 42 and 18 on duncan in the playoffs after having 2 teeth knocked out and missing part of a quarter

Dirk averaged 33 points 16 boards and 3 steals against kg IN A PLAYOFF SWEEP


Dirk averaged 33 points against rasheed wallace and scored 46 and 42 on him in the playoffs

Dirk led the playoffs in scoring last year and was top five in points, blocks and rebounds. 

There is NO DEFENSE FOR DIRK. Let's stop this "oh jamison and walker are gone he won't score"

dirk put up 32 points 12 boards 3 dimes and 2 blocks against TEAM USA

This team had duncan, odom, amare, marion and even BOOZER trying to defend him. 

Those are some of the best forwards in the WEST and he STILL shot over 50 percent and led a no name german team to a 1 point loss against a team full of allstars

There is NO STOPPING DIRK. Dirk can post up as well. he fades away just like K.G and J.O do. He has a baby hook shot but why would you put him on the blocks when he's a matchup nightmare on the perimeter? 

Dirk draws so much attention on the perimeter that his teammates benefit from receiving open looks because he gets doubled. 

Dirk has also had 3 straight 30/20 games in the reg season. J.O has NEVER EVA EVA EVA DONE THAT.

against the kings 2 years ago Dirk had 16 points 15 boards 9 dimes and 3 blocks. He didn't shoot it well but his passing and defense keyed the mavs to that win. 

I'm so sick of this argument. J.O is nowhere near Dirk Nowitski.

the pacers have only won 50 plus games ONCE with J.O as their leader.

the mavs have won 50 games FOUR STRAIGHT YEARS in the western conference and have been knocked out in round 1 only once

oneal has choked plenty of times and seen his team go home ALOT OF TIMES in round 1 in a pathetic eastern conference. 

Case closed


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

and in that year the pacers had the best season record in the league and put up a better fight against detroit tahtn the WCCs
and oneal was iinjured for much of last season and this is the first offseason that he has had in years that he has had a chance to rehad i expect him to improve next year


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>daschysta31</b>!
> and in that year the pacers had the best season record in the league and put up a better fight against detroit tahtn the WCCs
> and oneal was iinjured for much of last season and this is the first offseason that he has had in years that he has had a chance to rehad i expect him to improve next year


The west as a whole was a better conference. I'll take a team winning 60 games from the west like the mavs did 2 years ago over a 61 win team playing the hawks, wizards and other teams that won less than 30 games 4 times a year. 

And dirk hasn't been healthy in the postseason either until last year.

Knee injury against the spurs sidelined him in the WCF 
played with bone spurs in both ankles the year before than and then had offseason surgery.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Why do people hate on Dirks defense so much? Sure he's no Tim Duncan on D, he's probably not even a Brad Miller caliber defender. But his D is average, it's not so terrible that people run circles around him and just take it to the rim all day...


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> Why do people hate on Dirks defense so much? Sure he's no Tim Duncan on D, he's probably not even a Brad Miller caliber defender. But his D is average, it's not so terrible that people run circles around him and just take it to the rim all day...


Thank you! So true


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> And also look for his FG% to go down more. What's sad is that Dallas still has more has scorers than Indiana, but the Pacers will likely be better, still. Don't forget that also, Dirk should have more assists since he had better scorers, right? Per48 minutes he only averages .6 more. I sense a ballhog.
> ...


Which two stats would these be? The blocks and the rebounds? 2.4 rpg isn't that much more when it all comes down to it... The blocks is much better... But he certainly isn't BLOWN out of the water.... But when you take into account as to who effects the game more, it's Dirk... What he does with the pick and roll, his quickness, his shooting, causes havoc on other defenses... Everyone is out of position, leaving open shots... Gimme Dirk... Add to the fact that his defense is just average, I'd still take Dirk...


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

The pacers were 21-7 against the west that was the highest winning % in the league against the western conference last year.


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## Dallas Cowgirl (Sep 14, 2004)

<strike>You people are dumb.</strike>(<font color=blue>You break the rule of namecalling. Please do not call other posters on this thread "dumb".</font>

Jermaine O'Neal is about 100x the defensive player Dirk is. He's also a better rebounder and team leader.
Dirk can shoot better, wow.
Overall game is much in favor of Jermaine O'Neal.

JO
Offense - 8
Defense - 8
Rebound - 8

Dirk
Offense - 9
Defense - 4
Rebounding - 7

Talk about overrating offense and underrating defense....


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> You people are dumb.
> Jermaine O'Neal is about 100x the defensive player Dirk is. He's also a better rebounder and team leader.
> Dirk can shoot better, wow.
> ...


Sorry, but a guy who shoots 43% foa a season playing almost entirely in the paint or near can't be so near to Dirk as you've put it...


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> You people are dumb.
> Jermaine O'Neal is about 100x the defensive player Dirk is. He's also a better rebounder and team leader.
> Dirk can shoot better, wow.
> ...


JO
Offense - 7 gor 20ppg, 6 for 23%
Defense - 8
Rebound - 8
Playoffs - 6/7

Dirk
Offense - 10
Defense - 6
Rebound - 7
Playoffs - 9


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

lol, you rate JO's offense as a 8? Wow, shows how much you've watched the guy ball. For a guy to primarily stay in the post and to shoot under 45% is embarrassing, especially for a guy like JO who is an elite PF in the league.


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

If Dirk averaging 21 ppg last season in comparison to about 26 in the previous seasons then why cant jermaines fg% also be a fluke 43% last year to about 49% in the previous years and jermaine did take alot of midranged jumpers last year he wasnt soley a post player


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Which player do you think is better, Dirk Nowitzki or Jermaine O'Neal. Personally i'll take Dirk but I can see the reasonin if you want to take Jermaine


The difference between them is the fact that <b>Dirk goes up</b> in almost every meaningful category in the playoffs - against the best teams.

<b>Jermaine goes down</b> in almost all of the categories.

I choose Dirk because he can score better than Jermaine and because he is a BIG GAME player.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

In 40 career playoffs games, Dirks averages are 25.6 points, 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 1.4 steals, 1.1 blocks and only 2 turnovers per game. Thats 40 career playoffs games. I hope he can continue his offseason/playoff form into this next year


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## Dallas Cowgirl (Sep 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> JO
> ...


Dirk's offense isn't a 10. A 10 means absolute best, flawless. Ok, he's a 7 footer who can hit 3's. He's also a 7 footer scared to go to work in the paint. And a 10 would have to lead the league in scoring atleast 1. A 9 is plenty fair.
Defense Dirk is not a 6. He's slow, weak, and timid. His size advantage on the offensive end turns into a negative on the defensive end, where he can be blown past quite easily, not to mention the fact hes afraid to defend in the paint as well. Seems Mr. Dirk has paintophobia.
If Dirk is a 10 offensively, then JO is a 9 defensively and a 9 in rebounding.


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## aboveallodds24 (Sep 22, 2003)

jermaine oneal all the way


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## Dallas Cowgirl (Sep 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>daschysta31</b>!
> If Dirk averaging 21 ppg last season in comparison to about 26 in the previous seasons then why cant jermaines fg% also be a fluke 43% last year to about 49% in the previous years and jermaine did take alot of midranged jumpers last year he wasnt soley a post player


Amen brotha!


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

In last years playoffs oneal did not need ot put up monster numbers for his team to win and then he was injured in the detroit series. Last series that the pacers needed big numbers in and oneal was not injured was in 2002-2003 first round oneal averaged 23 points and 18 rebounds and 3 blocks in 6 games part of the reason for oneals lower career playoff numbers comes from the fact that he did not really get a chance in portland. Last year dirk put up big numbers in the playoffs and his team still lost team success is more important that individual statistics.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> 
> 
> Dirk's offense isn't a 10. A 10 means absolute best, flawless. Ok, he's a 7 footer who can hit 3's. He's also a 7 footer scared to go to work in the paint. And a 10 would have to lead the league in scoring atleast 1. A 9 is plenty fair.
> ...


Dirk is one of the best offensive players in the game today. He can score from *anywhere * on the court. He'll bring his slower guys out onto the perimeter and then drive past them and pull up for a jumper or go in and penetrate and get the foul called. He'll shoot over the small guys, overpower the quick guys and shoot over them. The +/- stats are in Dirks favour, on offense and defense. I know blocks and steals dont equal defense but they are helpful and Dirk gets his fair share of them aswell


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## Dallas Cowgirl (Sep 14, 2004)

Jermaine O'Neal
----------------------
Very Good Scorer
Great Defender
Very Good Rebounder

Dirk Nowitzki
-------------------
Great Scorer
Poor Defender
Good Rebounder

Dirk wins in scoring, however JO absolutely slaughters him in defense (which is every bit as important as defense, perhaps even more so) and is also the better rebounder.
In order to be great you have to have no weaknesses. Jermaine O'Neal has no weaknesses. Dirk has a glaring weakness, his piss porr defense.
Jermaine O'Neal > Dirk Nowitzki


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> 
> 
> Dirk's offense isn't a 10. A 10 means absolute best, flawless. Ok, he's a 7 footer who can hit 3's. He's also a 7 footer scared to go to work in the paint. And a 10 would have to lead the league in scoring atleast 1. A 9 is plenty fair.
> ...


Dirk has paintophobia?

Please explain to me how a guy who blocks 13 shots in 5 playoff games has "paintophobia" you act like J.O is down on the blocks BEASTING. He starts a post up move and FADES away. It's the exact same thing dirk does when he catches the ball on the blocks and he's done more of that the past 2 years.

There is no way in heck you can convince me that J.O is a 9 offensively. 

Every round his numbers dropped in the postseason. 44 percent. 42 percent then 40 percent. Not only does dirk shoot a HIGHER percentage than this "overrated post player" but you've neer seen dirk average under 20 in ANY PLAYOFF SERIES. 

(numbers rounded)

Oneals playoff stats last year 19 points 9 boards 1 dime 1 steal 2 blocks 42 percent from 2 land 70 percent from the line

Dirks playoff stats last year

27 points 12 boards 1 dime 1 steal 3 blocks 45 from 2 land 46 from 3 land 86 from the line. LOl it's not even close man. 


I dare you to say that J.O would torch K.G (all nba defensively)

for 33 points 16 boards and 3 steals while shooting 53 from 2 land and 73 from 3 land. LOL

no way in heck is oneal a 9 on offense. he's a seven at best and I'm being GENEROUS


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> Jermaine O'Neal
> ----------------------
> Very Good Scorer
> ...


Jermaine O'Neal
---------------------
Decent Scorer
Great Defender
Very Good Rebounder

Dirk Nowitzki
-------------------
Awesome scorer
Average defender
Pretty Good Rebounding.

Dirk is not a piss poor defender, he is just a bit over average. How about getting the ball in the basket, that seems like a bit of a weakness for JO for someone whos so good at offense


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## Dallas Cowgirl (Sep 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Dirk is one of the best offensive players in the game today. He can score from *anywhere * on the court. He'll bring his slower guys out onto the perimeter and then drive past them and pull up for a jumper or go in and penetrate and get the foul called. He'll shoot over the small guys, overpower the quick guys and shoot over them. The +/- stats are in Dirks favour, on offense and defense. I know blocks and steals dont equal defense but they are helpful and Dirk gets his fair share of them aswell


Yeah ok, he's a great offensive player. Offense is only 1 part of the game. 
His defense is whack. If you combine each players offense and defense, Jermaine O'Neal wins. Then you also have the fact he's a better rebounder.


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>daschysta31</b>!
> In last years playoffs oneal did not need ot put up monster numbers for his team to win and then he was injured in the detroit series. Last series that the pacers needed big numbers in and oneal was not injured was in 2002-2003 first round oneal averaged 23 points and 18 rebounds and 3 blocks in 6 games part of the reason for oneals lower career playoff numbers comes from the fact that he did not really get a chance in portland. Last year dirk put up big numbers in the playoffs and his team still lost team success is more important that individual statistics.


2 years ago dirk put up big playoff numbers and was HURT IN THE WCF and missed the last three games. It's funny how you bring up injuries and FAIL to point that out right?  

and no one is even mentioning Oneal's playoff stats in portland. We're talking about indiana and it's not EVEN CLOSE

Dirk put up 33, 16 and 3 on K.G. an mvp winner all nba first team player and one of the best defenders in the game.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah ok, he's a great offensive player. Offense is only 1 part of the game.
> His defense is whack. If you combine each players offense and defense, Jermaine O'Neal wins. Then you also have the fact he's a better rebounder.


Thats the whole point, Dirks offense can more than make up for his average defense, his offense makes up for his defense more than JOs defense makes up for 43%


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah ok, he's a great offensive player. Offense is only 1 part of the game.
> His defense is whack. If you combine each players offense and defense, Jermaine O'Neal wins. Then you also have the fact he's a better rebounder.


how so? 

Dirk averaged more boards than Oneal in the playoffs last year.

Dirk averaged 27 points 12 boards and 3 blocks in the playoffs last year (45 percent from the field)
Dirk averaged 25 points 12 boards in the playoffs (48 percent from the field) 2 years ago. 
Dirk averaged 28 points 13 boards in the playoffs 3 years ago (45 percent from the field)


All of dirk's numbers go UP in the postseason. Oneals go DOWN.


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

Thats only true because the pacers competition was sub par until the ECF, we did not need monster numbers to win and oneal is a much better rebounder the dirk on a REGULAR bases. Id rather put up 19 and win that put up 25 and lose. Bringing up one instance that is not a common occurance is no reason to say Dirk is a better rebounder than jermaine on a regular bases. One game does not prove anything no matter who you are playing.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Dirk has a more positive effect on the game... Simple as that...


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## Dallas Cowgirl (Sep 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats the whole point, Dirks offense can more than make up for his average defense, his offense makes up for his defense more than JOs defense makes up for 43%


No it doesnt.
Offensively Dirk & JO are very close. There's like 1 point differential.
Defensively its a blowout. JO is always mentioned as the best defenders in the league and is All-D 2nd team. Dirk is mentioned as one of the worst defenders in the league.
5 things are evident.
1. you're overrating the importance of Dirk's shooting ability. So what if his shots so hard to guard, it's not like hes making some huge %. 
2. Youre underrating JO's offense. He was a 20 point scorer on the leagues winningest team you know.
3. Youre overrating Dirks defense. His defense isnt even average. It's putrid, arguably the worst defensive star big man in the history of the game.
4. Youre underrating JO's defense. We're not talking about just a ho hum solid defender. We're talking about a top-10 defender and top-5 big man defender.
5. Youre making too big of a deal out of JO's fg%. He played hurt most of the year, and thusly had to rely on a jumpshot in which he could barely jump. His career 47% is much more accurate. If you're gonna go on & on about JO's fluke year fg%, then why not point out that this year Dirk wasnt even a top-10 scorer? He wasnt as good as a nobody like Michael Redd, and not even close to Peja Stojakovic.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> Per48 minute stats
> 
> ...



Wow, look at this stat I found about per 48 minute scoring.

Per 48 minute ppg

Jermaine 27 pts on 24.10 FGA per game

Dirk 27.7 pts on 21.5 FGA per game


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and mind you they are using REGULAR SEASON stats. Come playoff time I want them to take the "per 48 minute stats" from the past four playoff years

Dirk would kill him in boards
Dirk would kill him in points
Dirk would be ahead of him in steals
Dirk would be ahead of him in dimes
J.O would be ahead in blocks


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>droppinknowledge</b>!
> 
> 
> Dirk has paintophobia?
> ...



These are numbers all can understand, which leads me to ask why most here seem to believe that JO is a better rebounder than Dirk?? NOT!

NOW - <b>how does Dirk get all of those rebounds - IF he is not in the paint???</b>


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>daschysta31</b>!
> Thats only true because the pacers competition was sub par until the ECF, we did not need monster numbers to win and oneal is a much better rebounder the dirk on a REGULAR bases. Id rather put up 19 and win that put up 25 and lose. Bringing up one instance that is not a common occurance is no reason to say Dirk is a better rebounder than jermaine on a regular bases. One game does not prove anything no matter who you are playing.



are you not listening to me. THESE ARE PLAYOFF AVERAGES THE PAST FOUR YEARS. not individual games. LOL

how so? 

Dirk averaged more boards than Oneal in the playoffs last year.

Dirk averaged 27 points 12 boards and 3 blocks in the playoffs last year (45 percent from the field)
Dirk averaged 25 points 12 boards in the playoffs (48 percent from the field) 2 years ago. 
Dirk averaged 28 points 13 boards in the playoffs 3 years ago (45 percent from the field)


All of dirk's numbers go UP in the postseason. Oneals go DOWN.


and dirk has won alot more in the postseason than Oneal has. Put dirks mavs in the east the past four years an dthey would have made the nba finals at least 2 outta the past 4 years.

The nets haven't beaten the mavs in 3 years. Yet you guys struggled with them.

Even kmart outperforms J.O in the post season.


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

Like it has been said jermaines field goal percentage last year was a fluke if you call dirks lowered ppg a fluke then JO's field goal % (which is not consistant with his normal % is also a fluke) The man was playing hurt for much of the season and had to rely much more heavily on a jumpshot that was not his strenght and still put up his numbers. Well see next year what oneals % is when he is in condition to power in the post. Im sure it will be more consistant with the stats of previous years making him much more effective scorer.


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>daschysta31</b>!
> Like it has been said jermaines field goal percentage last year was a fluke if you call dirks lowered ppg a fluke then JO's field goal % (which is not consistant with his normal % is also a fluke) The man was playing hurt for much of the season and had to rely much more heavily on a jumpshot that was not his strenght and still put up his numbers. Well see next year what oneals % is when he is in condition to power in the post. Im sure it will be more consistant with the stats of previous years making him much more effective scorer.


how was it a fluke? J.O shot the exact SAME PERCENTAGE in the postseason. LOL

Dirk's numbers WENT up in the postseason cause the mavs are HIS TEAM and HE TAKES over games offensively come playoff time

Dirk went from 21 and 8 in the reg season to 

27 and 12 with 3 blocks in the postseason


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## Dallas Cowgirl (Sep 14, 2004)

JO's played hurt in the playoffs.
Dirk has not. Dont give me any crap abou tthe 2002 WCF< because I clearly remember Dirk *sitting out multiple Western Conference Finals games*
Thats very sad that the guys that big of a whimp. He has no heart. Could you picture JO sitting out any of the games with the Pistons after his horrific injury? I dont think so.
JO had one of the best playoffs in recent year, putting up 22+ 18+ and 3+ in 2002.
That completely trumps anything Dirk "I Sat Out Multiple Western Conference Finals Games Because I Had A Minor ANkle Injury" Nowitzkis ever done.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> 
> 1. you're overrating the importance of Dirk's shooting ability. So what if his shots so hard to guard, it's not like hes making some huge %.


46% is quite good. Last year had had the same percent when scoring 26 points a game. Its not like Dirk got "worse" but he didnt get as many shots, he practically stayed the same except for lending 4/5 points to someone else. 



> 2. Youre underrating JO's offense. He was a 20 point scorer on the leagues winningest team you know.


At 43%, last year he was a much better scorer, he got 20ppg at 48% but this year he took extra shots so he'd get an extra point




> 3. Youre overrating Dirks defense. His defense isnt even average. It's putrid, arguably the worst defensive star big man in the history of the game.


No its not, Dirk is an average defender. Sure he may not ge good for a star but nonetheless he is still a decent defender




> 4. Youre underrating JO's defense. We're not talking about just a ho hum solid defender. We're talking about a top-10 defender and top-5 big man defender.


I admit to that but can't I say that about you and Dirks offense. Dirk is probably one of the best if not the best scorers in the game




> 5. Youre making too big of a deal out of JO's fg%. He played hurt most of the year, and thusly had to rely on a jumpshot in which he could barely jump. His career 47% is much more accurate. If you're gonna go on & on about JO's fluke year fg%, then why not point out that this year Dirk wasnt even a top-10 scorer? He wasnt as good as a nobody like Michael Redd, and not even close to Peja Stojakovic.


But Dirk practically had the same type of game. Last year he shot .463 at 25ppg, this year he shot .462 at 21ppg. Its not like he wasnt as good offensively, he had Walker who got a boner if there was a semi open shot. JO got an extra point than last year, at like 5% worse FG


----------



## Dallas Cowgirl (Sep 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Call me crazy, put I think the fact that JO has averaged more rebounds than Dirk each of the past 4 years might play just a teeny weeny part in it.
OWNED.


----------



## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

> The nets haven't beaten the mavs in 3 years. Yet you guys struggled with them.


We didnt struggle with the nets last year, and we swept the season series with dallas making anything we did againgst the nets irrevellant anyway.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Last year vs Dallas
> ...


Regarding the game you presented, Jermaine shot better from the field, as he had in the two previous games as well:

11/28/02

O'neal: 28 points, 18 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 fouls, 3 turnovers, 1 block, 11 of 22 shooting, 40 mins.

Nowitzki: 17 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 5 fouls, 2 turnovers, 3 blocks, 4 for 20 shooting, 42 mins.

12/17/02

O'neal: 20 points, 7 rebounds (5 offensive), 1 assist, 3 fouls, 2 blocks, 7 of 16 shooting, 1 for 2 3pters, 26 mins.

Nowitzki: 20 points, 5 rebounds (1 offensive), 1 assist, 3 fouls, 2 blocks, 8 of 15 shooting, 2 of 6 3pters (JO shot better in threes too ahahahahahah), 28 mins.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> 
> Offensively Dirk & JO are very close. There's like 1 point differential.


Offensively, Nowitzki and O'Neal are not close. There was a one point differential last season because Dallas was sharing the scoring between Nowitzki, Nash, Finley, Walker and Jamison.

Check out the season before that, before Walker and Jamison hit town. 25.1 ppg on 46.3% shooting. For a guy shooting as many threes as he does, his overall field goal percentage is remarkably valuable.

O'Neal is not the same caliber of offensive threat at all. He's a good offensive player. Nowitzki is a great one, potentially a Dominique Wilkins level scorer.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> JO's played hurt in the playoffs.
> Dirk has not. Dont give me any crap abou tthe 2002 WCF< because I clearly remember Dirk *sitting out multiple Western Conference Finals games*
> Thats very sad that the guys that big of a whimp. He has no heart. Could you picture JO sitting out any of the games with the Pistons after his horrific injury? I dont think so.
> ...


No heart? Why didnt Jermaine play for his country then, wanted to rest. Dirk played for his crappy country (at Basketball) and nearly lead the to a massive upset over USA. Dirk plays whole years in pain, you seriously think that ankle doesnt hurt him? Did you see last year what happened to Dirk? Did you see how wrong the position of his ankle looked? Didnt think so, the announcers thought that he broke it and so did everyone else, he hadda be practically carried of and then he was put into a cart and driven away


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

> how was it a fluke? J.O shot the exact SAME PERCENTAGE in the postseason. LOL


he was hurt in the playoffs too


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Offensively, Nowitzki and O'Neal are not close. There was a one point differential last season because Dallas was sharing the scoring between Nowitzki, Nash, Finley, Walker and Jamison.
> ...


However, O'neal is a much, much, much better post scorer, something a team's guards can not generally do, therefore, Jermaine brings a more important aspect to the game for his position.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Offensively, Nowitzki and O'Neal are not close. There was a one point differential last season because Dallas was sharing the scoring between Nowitzki, Nash, Finley, Walker and Jamison.
> ...



The gap between their defense is larger than the gap between their offense.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> 
> 
> Call me crazy, put I think the fact that JO has averaged more rebounds than Dirk each of the past 4 years might play just a teeny weeny part in it.
> OWNED.


Not owned at all. You said Dirk had paintophobia and RifleMan cleverly pointed out how would he get those rebounds if he was scared of the paint.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Not owned at all. You said Dirk had paintophobia and RifleMan cleverly pointed out how would he get those rebounds if he was scared of the paint.


How about you repsond to someone that uses some logic? That's right, you can't because Jermaine O'neal is logically a better power forward than Dirk Nowitzki is.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> However, O'neal is a much, much, much better post scorer, something a team's guards can not generally do, therefore, Jermaine brings a more important aspect to the game for his position.


43%. When he goes into the post he usually fades away


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> 
> 
> Call me crazy, put I think the fact that JO has averaged more rebounds than Dirk each of the past 4 years might play just a teeny weeny part in it.
> OWNED.


how so? 

Dirk averaged more boards than Oneal in the playoffs last year.

Dirk averaged 27 points 12 boards and 3 blocks in the playoffs last year (45 percent from the field)
Dirk averaged 25 points 12 boards in the playoffs (48 percent from the field) 2 years ago. 
Dirk averaged 28 points 13 boards in the playoffs 3 years ago (45 percent from the field)


All of dirk's numbers go UP in the postseason. Oneals go DOWN.


um no. You left out the playoff stats. You're using reg season stats. come postseason dirk's number rise. Oneals fall. Why is that? That's proof that a guy cannot DELIVER when it counts the most. LOL nice try though


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> How about you repsond to someone that uses some logic? That's right, you can't because Jermaine O'neal is logically a better power forward than Dirk Nowitzki is.


Actually i've been replying to everyone in this thread, so are you saying Pacers fans are stupid? How rude, they are smart. Its one hell of an argument and when its done Im probably gonna give out a few 5 stars


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## Dallas Cowgirl (Sep 14, 2004)

JO's defense = Dirk's offense
JO's offense >>> Dirks defense

The guy who's very good at everything is greater than the guy whos great (if you consider 21.8 ppg great) at one thing and horrible at the most important aspect of basketball.
Anything Dirk may gain over JO offensively is when you consider the fact that Dirk's mans more than likely gonna have an above average game while JO's man is more than likely gonna have a below average game.
JO's offense + defense > Dirks offense + defense


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Heres another stat. Dirk averaged 2.6 blocks per game these playoffs. Jermaine averaged 2.25. Or how about the 9.1 rebounds per game that Jermaine pulled down compared to the 11.8 Dirk pulled down?


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> 
> 
> Call me crazy, put I think the fact that JO has averaged more rebounds than Dirk each of the past 4 years might play just a teeny weeny part in it.
> OWNED.


Call me crazy, too, as I generally look at things from a CAREER point of view, instead of a 2 game season match-up.

JO:

<i>Career: 
519 324 25.9m .465 .159 .678 2.10 5.20 <b>7.30rpg</b> 1.1 .48 1.78 1.62 2.70 <b>12.3 </b>
Playoff 
51 31 26.0 .428 .000 .703 1.60 5.50<b> 7.20rpg</b> .7 .29 1.59 1.37 2.60 <b>11.7 </b>
</i>

DN:
<i>Career 
444 420 35.9m .464 .372 .853 1.20 7.00 <b>8.30 rpg</b> 2.4 1.03 1.03 1.81 2.80 <b>20.4 </b>
Playoff 
40 40 42.3 .455 .420 .889 1.50 9.60 <b>11.00 </b>1.9 1.38 1.08 2.05 3.30 <b>25.6 </b>


Do you notice that career wise - Dirk steps it up against the BEST of his western conference PLAYOFFS opponents and that Jermaine does the opposite in his eastern conference playoffs opponents?


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> JO's defense = Dirk's offense
> JO's offense >>> Dirks defense
> 
> ...


Dirk offense >> Jermaines defense
Jermaine offense >> Dirk defense


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

oneal didnt have to carry his team in the playoffs we breezed past the celtics and didnt have too much trouble against the heat he then went down with an ankle injury in the detroit series and played hurt. This simply proves that Oneal did not need to take it upon himself to put up monster stats to win. Dirk put up monster stats in a losing effort.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> 43%. When he goes into the post he usually fades away


And he's still a much, much, much better post scorer than Dirk.


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> 
> No it doesnt.
> Offensively Dirk & JO are very close. There's like 1 point differential.
> ...


http://www.nba.com/statistics/index.html

once again. Dirk wasn't a top10 scorer in the reg season? Come playoff time who was FIRST IN THE POSTSEASON IN SCORING.

Dirk has been topfive in the playoffs in POSTSEASON SCORING 4 STRAIGHT YEARS. How many times has oneal even cracked the top 10? LOL kMART averages just as many points as J.O did this past postseason (as well as shooting 53 percent from da field compared to oneals 43 percent) and I gurantee you won't sit up here and tell me with a straight face that kmarts offense is on the same level as dirks. 

[email protected] oneals offense. he averaged 19 points and 8 boards in the postseason. he shot 43 percent. he averaged 17 points in the WCF. that's no where NEAR DIRK. Go find the last time dirk has averaged LESS THAN 20 in the postseason. 

and you're also lying about dirk not being "top10" in the nba in scoring this past year

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dirk_nowitzki/index.html?nav=page

Ranks #9 in the NBA in Points Per Game(21.8)

also if you look at dirk's shooting from the field from last year and 2 years ago you would see that he shot almost 200 times less last year cause he had more offensive weapons around him.

But he also shot 46 from 2 land. Exact same percentage. his 3 point shooting was a lil bit worse but that right there is the main reason he went from 26 points in the reg season 2 years ago to 21 last year. 

What's the next lie you're gonna tell?


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually i've been replying to everyone in this thread, so are you saying Pacers fans are stupid? How rude, they are smart. Its one hell of an argument and when its done Im probably gonna give out a few 5 stars


Way to put words into my mouth. I said that person, who probably isn't a Pacer fan (has never posted on the Pacer board) has no logic. There is no point in arguing with someone that doesn't present evidence, because then you can't disprove said evidence. Just helping you out there.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>daschysta31</b>!
> oneal didnt have to carry his team in the playoffs we breezed past the celtics and didnt have too much trouble against the heat he then went down with an ankle injury in the detroit series and played hurt. This simply proves that Oneal did not need to take it upon himself to put up monster stats to win. Dirk put up monster stats in a losing effort.


Thats because no-one steps up besides Dirk. Finley, Nash, Jamison all played horribly in the playoffs. And when people step up (NVE) they make the WCF and Dirk goes down and they lose


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>droppinknowledge</b>!
> 
> 
> What's the next lie you're gonna tell?


Dirks not really German?

Thats not his natural hair


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> JO's defense = Dirk's offense
> JO's offense >>> Dirks defense
> 
> ...


well 21.8 ppg was GOOD ENOUGH for 9th in the nba last year and that's a "down year" for dirk? Lol that just goes to show you how "great offensively" dirk is than J.O.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> However, O'neal is a much, much, much better post scorer, something a team's guards can not generally do, therefore, Jermaine brings a more important aspect to the game for his position.


He's not a "much, much, much better" post scorer. Nowitzki is capable in the post, just not in an overpowering way. And O'Neal is hardly a dominant post player. Nobody gets the sense that you simply cannot stop O'Neal, and his field goal percentage is quite terrible for a post-player.

Further, pure shooters who are not specialists, are even rarer than good post players.


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## Dallas Cowgirl (Sep 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Heres another stat. Dirk averaged 2.6 blocks per game these playoffs. Jermaine averaged 2.25. Or how about the 9.1 rebounds per game that Jermaine pulled down compared to the 11.8 Dirk pulled down?


How about this stat - 
Jermaine O'Neal 3rd round
Dirk Nowitzki 1st round bow out

JO played hurt - something Dirk never does btw - and still put up solid near 20/10/3 numbers.
The last playoffs JO played 100% healthy he lead the leaguye in rebounding (18+) blocked shots (3+) and threw in a nice 22 ppg.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> Call me crazy, too, as I generally look at things from a CAREER point of view, instead of a 2 game season match-up.
> ...


Notice that Dirk has average 10 more minutes per game in regular season games, and 16.3 more minutes in playoff games. Personally, that is a big attestment to JO, or sad on Dirk's part, that Jermaine's rebounding numbers are near to Dirk's numbers even when you take into account Jermaine's 12th man days in Portland.


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> JO's played hurt in the playoffs.
> Dirk has not. Dont give me any crap abou tthe 2002 WCF< because I clearly remember Dirk *sitting out multiple Western Conference Finals games*
> Thats very sad that the guys that big of a whimp. He has no heart. Could you picture JO sitting out any of the games with the Pistons after his horrific injury? I dont think so.
> ...


 

Dirk played an entire SEASON with bone spurs in BOTH ANKLES (2001/2002), HAD OFFSEASON SURGERY, AND THEN WAS OUT PLAYING FOR GERMANY IN THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS TWO MONTHS LATER. 


Um Dirk didn't have a "minor ankle injury" in the WCF. He had a strained MCL. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt that refer to your KNEE? 

sO BASICALLY what you're saying is J.O putting up 22, 18 and 3 in 2002 is better than dirk putting up 33, 16 and 3 in 2002 against K.G? 

lol


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> He's not a "much, much, much better" post scorer. Nowitzki is capable in the post, just not in an overpowering way. And O'Neal is hardly a dominant post player. Nobody gets the sense that you simply cannot stop O'Neal, and his field goal percentage is quite terrible for a post-player.
> ...


Nowitzki isn't more than a specialist though. He doesn't have above average defense, he doesn't necessary have great rebounding skills, he isn't an above average passer, hell, he only shoots 34.1% from behind the three point line, which is dispicable if that is supposed to be his most lucrative attribute.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>droppinknowledge</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jermaine had to play against the Pistons though, which is leagues above the level of defense Minnesota could throw at Dirk, and Dirk played 7 more minutes than Jermaine in the 1st round.


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

when you underrate oneals offensive capabilities you also have to take into account that oneal puts up his numbers on the team that had the best record last year. he could easily fill up his stat sheet more effectively if he was on a not so good team whose coach does not call every single play. Would oneal be so much better if he averaged 23/12/3.5 on a **** team opposed to 20/10 on a great team?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> The gap between their defense is larger than the gap between their offense.


I'm not so sure of that, but you may be right.

Still, I think Nowitzki is the more unique player. Would you rather have:

Player 1
Offense: 10
Defense: 4
Rebounding: 6

Player 2
Offense: 7
Defense: 7
Rebounding: 7

I feel that Player 1, while losing two of three categories, still can make a greater impact due to having the single most unique ability between the two of them, the 10 offense.


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## Dallas Cowgirl (Sep 14, 2004)

<strike>PacersguyUSA, youre not making a lot of sense. I wish you'd leave this thread. (no offense)</strike>(It is offensive when a poster tells another to leave a thread. Actually, it is against our rules.trm):nonono:

Dirks a great offensive player, though a bit overrated. Even with noone rarely in his face he only hit's 46%. If Reggie Miller was 7' he'd hit 60% of his shots.
However you people are completely overlooking how horrible of a defender he is. He routinely gets lit up by middle of the pack big men. He's just too weak, too slow, and too timid.
Letme put it this way........
If Dirks offense was defense, he'd be All-Defense 1st team. If Dirk's defense was offense, he'd be a 5 ppg scorer.
If JO's offense was defense, he'd be All-Defense 3rd team. If JO's defense was offense, he'd be 27 ppg on 48% shooting.

Let me ask this question........Who would you rather have in their primes - Scottie Pippen or Dominique Wilkins?


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> 
> 
> How about this stat -
> ...


Dirk played an entire SEASON with bone spurs in BOTH ANKLES (2001/2002), HAD OFFSEASON SURGERY, AND THEN WAS OUT PLAYING FOR GERMANY IN THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS TWO MONTHS LATER. 


Dirk had 2 teeth knocked out against the spurs in a playoff game, put in a mouthpiece and then dropped 42 and 18 on duncan. 


how about this?

dirk= 4 straight 50 win seasons

Oneal= 1 50 win season in the past 4 years


dirk= 1 first round exit the past four years
oneal- 3 first round exits the past four years


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Nowitzki isn't more than a specialist though. He doesn't have above average defense, he doesn't necessary have great rebounding skills, he isn't an above average passer, hell, he only shoots 34.1% from behind the three point line, which is dispicable if that is supposed to be his most lucrative attribute.


How about Voshon Lenard, he must be a dispicible 3pt shooter then? Even though he won the 3pt comp he really sucks eh? Only 36% then


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Jermaine had to play against the Pistons though, which is leagues above the level of defense Minnesota could throw at Dirk, and Dirk played 7 more minutes than Jermaine in the 1st round.



All pathetic Minnesota had to throw at Dirk was poor old All-NBA 1st team defender KG, poor him


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## Dallas Cowgirl (Sep 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not so sure of that, but you may be right.
> ...


Dirk's not a 10 offensively. In order to be a 10 you have to be the best. Dirk's not the best scorer in the league. Tell me, do youi think Dirk is an equal or better scorer than Wilt Chamberlain? Accorind to your 10 you do.
Also, JO was in the top-15 in scoring. He was in the top-15 last year on like 47% shooting. That's more of an 8 than a 7. And his defense is also more a long the lines of an 8 considering the fact he's annualy in the top-5 in blocked shots to go along with 1+ spg.


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Jermaine had to play against the Pistons though, which is leagues above the level of defense Minnesota could throw at Dirk, and Dirk played 7 more minutes than Jermaine in the 1st round.


i don't care. If J.O is on Dirk's offensive level that wouldn't matter. Big Ben can't guard dirk either. Ask him about the 40 points dirk put on him last year. He did hold dirk to 14 in the next game but that's cause it was a blow out and the starters were taken out and even in that game dirk was 6 for 11 from the field for 14 points and 15 boards.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Wow, JO didnt make an All-NBA defensive team, he wasnt even first or second after them with points scored


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> 
> 
> Dirk's not a 10 offensively. In order to be a 10 you have to be the best. Dirk's not the best scorer in the league. Tell me, do youi think Dirk is an equal or better scorer than Wilt Chamberlain? Accorind to your 10 you do.
> Also, JO was in the top-15 in scoring. He was in the top-15 last year on like 47% shooting. That's more of an 8 than a 7. And his defense is also more a long the lines of an 8 considering the fact he's annualy in the top-5 in blocked shots to go along with 1+ spg.



LOL so you're saying that dirk isn't a ten. he was NUMBER 1 in the nba in PLAYOFF SCORING THIS PAST SEASON. So how is that not "the best" Dirk was 2nd in blocks this postseason. So that would make him an "8" defensive right? LOl that logic is just not that smart. HEck dirk was topfive IN POINTS, REBOUNDS AND BLOCKS LAST YEAR IN THE POSTSEASON. DIRK and SHAQ were the ONLY GUYS TO do that in the postseason last year.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> Nowitzki isn't more than a specialist though.


A specialist is someone like Steve Kerr or Del Curry. Nowitzki is a good rebounder, an average defender (compared to the league, not compared to other elite players) and a decent ball-handler and passer. He is no way a specialist.

Nowitzki's numbers fell last year due to having four talented teammates (Nash, Finley, Walker, Jamison) sharing the numbers. The seasons prior to that, his numbers were all much better.


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

oneal is a good post season performer when he is not hurt but fine dirk really does light it up in the postseason but so does reggie miller and are you going to say (at this point and time) that he is a better player than JO just because his post season highs are better than his regular season?


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Notice that Dirk has average 10 more minutes per game in regular season games, and 16.3 more minutes in playoff games. Personally, that is a big attestment to JO, or sad on Dirk's part, that Jermaine's rebounding numbers are near to Dirk's numbers even when you take into account Jermaine's 12th man days in Portland.


naw man that's not gonna work. go take J.O's postseason stats from last year, the year before and the year before and you'll see that oneals stats GO DOWN IN THE POSTSEASON. 

Matter of fact J.O has only had two 20 point scoring seasons and just BARELY that. 

Dirk has had 4 in a row. heck his second year in the league dirk was putting up 18 and 7. and don't gimme that jermaine was highschool player crap either. Dirk is the exact same age kobe is. LOL


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>daschysta31</b>!
> oneal is a good post season performer when he is not hurt but fine dirk really does light it up in the postseason but so does reggie miller and are you going to say (at this point and time) that he is a better player than JO just because his post season highs are better than his regular season?


No thats stupid, but when two players are so hard to distinguish, playoff stats are very helpful. Why do you think some people hesitate with Peja? because hes a bad playoff performer. But if you were to compare Reggie Miller with someone whos in the same position and both kinda the same and one sucks in the playoffs and Reggie rules. Then Reggies your man


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## Dallas Cowgirl (Sep 14, 2004)

Dirk = stat padder
Getting eliminated in the 1st round in the Western Conference aka the Pee Wee League where they dont play defense is sad.
Dirk doesnt play defense, and untill he does he's never gonna have as big an impact as Jermaine O'Neal does.
JO plays great at both end.
Dirk plays great at one end, and disappears at the other.
That right there is all you need to know.
Jermaine O'Neal wins.


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>daschysta31</b>!
> oneal is a good post season performer when he is not hurt but fine dirk really does light it up in the postseason but so does reggie miller and are you going to say (at this point and time) that he is a better player than JO just because his post season highs are better than his regular season?


that only happened LAST YEAR because dirk had so many weapons on offense. But dirk TOO OVER THE POSTSEASON for the mavs. He singlehandidly kept them in every game while fin, nash and walker all shot under 40 percent. The mavs second leading scorer was daniels (a rookie). And although jamison was playing well he was injured and played limited mins. 

Reggie Miller is one of the best sg's of ALL TIME. you're talking about a guy that gave you 18 points a night for 12 STRAIGHT SEASONS. Oneal has barely had 2 seasons averaging at least 18 and now he's better than dirk?

LOL dirk has had 5 straight seasons putting up at least 17 points and 8 boards. He's led his team to four straight 50 win seasons etc etc. I can't believe peeps would even TRY TO argue that someone as CONSISTENT as dirk is on the same level as a playoff choker such as J.O.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> <strike>PacersguyUSA, youre not making a lot of sense.



............... *hypocracy kills*


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

i said at this point and time, reggie miller is my favorite player and i would not try to disrespect him.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> How about Voshon Lenard, he must be a dispicible 3pt shooter then? Even though he won the 3pt comp he really sucks eh? Only 36% then


1. At least Voshon Lenard hits 1/3 of a hundred shots.

2. What does the 3pt shootout have to do with a players 3pt percentage in games?


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> Dirk = stat padder
> Getting eliminated in the 1st round in the Western Conference aka the Pee Wee League where they dont play defense is sad.
> Dirk doesnt play defense, and untill he does he's never gonna have as big an impact as Jermaine O'Neal does.
> ...


You're calling West the Pee Wee league, no way Indiana wins 61 games in West. No way Dalas doesnt win 61 games in the East.

No this is all you need to kow. JO plays good at one end and great at the other end
Dirk plays magnificently at one end and decent at the other end

Hows Dirk a stat padder? Indiana pobably would of lost to Sacramento


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

Oneal has only had 2 20 ppg seasons cuz hes really only had a chance to get any minutes in indy which he has not spent the magority of his career in.

96-97 POR 45 0 10.2 .451 .000 .603 .90 1.90 2.80 .2 .04 .58 .60 1.00 4.1 
97-98 POR 60 9 13.5 .485 .000 .506 1.30 2.00 3.40 .3 .25 .97 .92 1.70 4.5 
98-99 POR 36 1 8.6 .434 .000 .514 1.20 1.50 2.70 .4 .11 .39 .39 1.10 2.5 
99-00 POR 70 8 12.3 .486 .000 .582 1.40 1.90 3.30 .3 .16 .79 .67 1.80 3.9 
00-01 IND 81 80 32.6 .465 .000 .601 3.10 6.70 9.80 1.2 .60 2.81 1.99 3.50 12.9 
01-02 IND 72 72 37.6 .479 .071 .688 2.60 7.90 10.50 1.6 .63 2.31 2.42 3.70 19.0 
02-03 IND 77 76 37.2 .484 .333 .731 2.60 7.70 10.30 2.0 .86 2.31 2.34 3.60 20.8 
03-04 IND 78 78 35.7 .434 .111 .757 2.50 7.50 10.00 2.1 .76 2.55 2.32 3.20 20.1 

look at the massive improvement in the 4 seasons which he has had a chance to show his stuff.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> All pathetic Minnesota had to throw at Dirk was poor old All-NBA 1st team defender KG, poor him


Ben Wallace was the 2X Defensive player of the year though. And since the Pacers have Foster playing center, who is great at rebounding and defense but not an offensive threat, O'neal faced Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace.

Ben Wallace + Rasheed Wallace is not even comparable on defense to Kevin Garnett + Erving Johsnon/Michael Olowakandi. Are you kidding me? Please tell me you're kidding me.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> 1. At least Voshon Lenard hits 1/3 of a hundred shots.
> ...


You said Dirk had a terrible 3pt shot for his skill, and Im asking you if Voshon Lenard is a terrible 3pt shooter. Dirk also hit 1/3 of his 3pt shot

2. Well Lenard is one of the best 3 point shooters in the game right, yet his game 3pt % is terrible


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> Dirk = stat padder
> Getting eliminated in the 1st round in the Western Conference aka the Pee Wee League where they dont play defense is sad.
> Dirk doesnt play defense, and untill he does he's never gonna have as big an impact as Jermaine O'Neal does.
> ...


so now the wcf is the "pee wee league" right? 

denver was the 8th seed in the west last year and they won 43 games. Utah (42 wins) and Portland (41 wins) both missed the playoffs but

Miami was the 4th seed in the east and they won 41 games. New York(39 wins) and Boston (36 wins) both made the playoffs in the east when they would have been seeded 11th and 12th in the west. 

The east had 9 teams that failed to win at least 40 games. The west had 4. So who really "padded their stats and record?" Oneal faced subpar teams that didn't win 40 games 36 times. Dirk faced subpar teams that didn't win 40 games 16 times. And even with that HUGE ADVANTAGE dirk's mavs only lost 8 more games than the pacers did. 

Oneal disappears at the offensive end. What good is playing "great d" when you choke it away on the other end when you team needs a big bucket?


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Ben Wallace was the 2X Defensive player of the year though. And since the Pacers have Foster playing center, who is great at rebounding and defense but not an offensive threat, O'neal faced Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace.
> ...


I wasnt saying that Dirk faced defense harder, but I was saying that Dirk still had to face some terribly hard defense.

What about Milwaukee, did Marcus Haislip guard JO then?


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>droppinknowledge</b>!
> 
> 
> i don't care. If J.O is on Dirk's offensive level that wouldn't matter. Big Ben can't guard dirk either. Ask him about the 40 points dirk put on him last year. He did hold dirk to 14 in the next game but that's cause it was a blow out and the starters were taken out and even in that game dirk was 6 for 11 from the field for 14 points and 15 boards.


And Jermaine also played 7 less minutes in the first round...


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

> You're calling West the Pee Wee league, no way Indiana wins 61 games in West. No way Dalas doesnt win 61 games in the East


The pacers were 21 and 7 against the western conference that is the best % any team in the league had... I think that if the pacers were in the western conference it would not be a stretch to say that they would still be competing for the top spot with SA, DAL, MIN etc... But the west is no pee wee league in general they are much more powerful than the east outside of IND and DET.


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>daschysta31</b>!
> Oneal has only had 2 20 ppg seasons cuz hes really only had a chance to get any minutes in indy which he has not spent the magority of his career in.
> 
> 96-97 POR 45 0 10.2 .451 .000 .603 .90 1.90 2.80 .2 .04 .58 .60 1.00 4.1
> ...


J.O is never gonna be anything more than a 20 ppg scorer. His past 3 seasons have shown that. He can't take over a game offensively or DEFENSILVEY.

at least dirk can CARRY his team offensively when they need him. he has 4 career 40 point playoff games. How many of those oneal got? :laugh:


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

and how do you justify oneal being an "offensive choker"?


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> And Jermaine also played 7 less minutes...


Probably coz the coach saw Dirk killing him :laugh:


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> You said Dirk had a terrible 3pt shot for his skill, and Im asking you if Voshon Lenard is a terrible 3pt shooter. Dirk also hit 1/3 of his 3pt shot
> ...



I'm saying, for 3pt shooting to be your best attribute, you better shoot better than 34.1%, not that 34% is generally bad. Just like Jermaine's greatest attribute is his post game, and you guys rag on him for 43% (even though he shoot a higher percentage of strictly post shots).

And no Dirk doesn't hit 1/3 out of a hundred three pointers.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Probably coz the coach saw Dirk killing him :laugh:


Seeing as the Pacers were playing the Celtics I wonder how that's possible. :whoknows:


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

last year oneal averaged his points while injured and heavily relying on his fade away which he is not known for we'll see just how much he improves next year wont we?


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Ben Wallace was the 2X Defensive player of the year though. And since the Pacers have Foster playing center, who is great at rebounding and defense but not an offensive threat, O'neal faced Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace.
> ...


kevin garnett and Joe smith were on Dirk in that series. K.G is all world defensively. Joe Smith is no slouch defensilvey either. 

And also let's explain why Pippen and Sheed couldn't stopdirk either. He averaged 30 points 9 boards and 2 steals against them and shot 52 percent from 2 land and 56 percent from 3 land and had a 46 point game and a 42 point game. Pippen and Sheed are both GREAT DEFENDERS. 

So what's the excuse for that? :laugh:


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dallas Cowgirl</b>!
> 
> 
> Dirk's not a 10 offensively. In order to be a 10 you have to be the best. Dirk's not the best scorer in the league.


I think Nowitzki might well be the best scorer in the league. He, McGrady and Bryant are the three best.

I'm not going to compare him to Wilt Chamberlain. I have no idea what Chamberlain would do today, in a much bigger, stronger league with far more sophisticated defensive schemes. I do think Nowitzki has the chance to be one of the offensive greats in NBA history.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well if he shoot 34% doesnt that mean that he hits 34 from 100 which is just over 1/3. 3pt shooting is not Dirks best attribute. But are you saying Voshon Lenard isnt good for a 3pt specialist


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Seeing as the Pacers were playing the Celtics I wonder how that's possible. :whoknows:


Oh sorry, must of misread something


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Dirk is not a piss poor defender, he is just a bit over average.





> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Cons
> Dirk isnt a great defender. he's average at best


Contradiction?




> No heart? Why didnt Jermaine play for his country then, wanted to rest.


Hyperextending your knee isn't exactly an illegit injury. If you saw the tape of that play, you'd see why Jermaine didn't play, otherwise he would've.




> Wow, JO didnt make an All-NBA defensive team, he wasnt even first or second after them with points scored


He was 3rd in MVP voting, though.



> Not necesarily, Nash had an extra 1.5 assist a game


I'm talking about their record, one-man teams don't win.....



> Imagine if Dirk worked on his defense till it was at the level of even KMart, how freakishly good would he be.


If Dirk actually tried on defense, he could be average, if he tried even harder, his offensive stats would go down from the energy wasted on the defensive end.



> Dirk has a more positive effect on the game... Simple as that...


As does he have a more negative effect on the game both offensively and defensively......




> Heres another stat. Dirk averaged 2.6 blocks per game these playoffs. Jermaine averaged 2.25. Or how about the 9.1 rebounds per game that Jermaine pulled down compared to the 11.8 Dirk pulled down?


Do the playoffs really matter with Dirk? He can perform, but has not shown yet he is a team player, even with great teammates. One of the key reasons why arguably the most talented team in the league last year didn't go far at all.





> All pathetic Minnesota had to throw at Dirk was poor old All-NBA 1st team defender KG, poor him


KG is not a 1st team defender, he may get the award, but anyone you talk to, will tell you that KG is not a 1st team quality defender



> The gap between their defense is larger than the gap between their offense.


These 13 words can summarize what 200 posts couldn't.





> 3pt shooting is not Dirks best attribute


Then what is? 



> I think Nowitzki might well be the best scorer in the league. He, McGrady and Bryant are the three best.


I'd add KG and Duncan to that list of best scorers. In terms of how hot a player can get though, Bryant, Duncan, and Dirk are tops in the league, the sad thing is, is that when Kobe's off, he's decent, when Duncan's off, he's still good, and when Dirk's off, he's horrible.



> Jermaine O'Neal
> ---------------------
> Decent Scorer
> Great Defender
> ...


What? Jermaine's a decent scorer. 16th in the league is a decent scorer? Boy, I wish we had some bad scorers on the Pacers, they'd really help.


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


dude. the thing is oneal is NOT CLUTCH. Artest plays with more heart than he does. he gets to 20 points and then stops scoring. In the playoffs BIG NAME PLAYERS step it up. J.o.'s STATS drop come playoff time


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

i would take dirk because of one of two reasons 1. he can shoot the 3 and 2 he can make free throws


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> Hyperextending your knee isn't exactly an illegit injury. If you saw the tape of that play, you'd see why Jermaine didn't play, otherwise he would've.


Oh yeah I remember that, I though it had healed. If you saw Dirks ankle you would of understand why he didnt play in those games (Dallas Cowgirl)






> I'm talking about their record, one-man teams don't win.....


We didnt have a Center, Lost NVE and Finley was much worse. Walker didnt help either





> If Dirk actually tried on defense, he could be average, if he tried even harder, his offensive stats would go down from the energy wasted on the defensive end.


But he'd still be a much better offensive player than JO





> Do the playoffs really matter with Dirk? He can perform, but has not shown yet he is a team player, even with great teammates. One of the key reasons why arguably the most talented team in the league last year didn't go far at all.


With great teammates Dallas won 60-22 and made it to the WCF. Just because a player fits well for one team doesnt mean he's good with an another team




> KG is not a 1st team defender, he may get the award, but anyone you talk to, will tell you that KG is not a 1st team quality defender


What about the 122 (something like that) proffesional sports writers and GMs or wateva who vote for the teams





> Then what is?


Offensive ability, being able to shoot over a small guy and make it, being able to drive past slower opponents and penetrate and get a foul or pull up for a midrange jumper




> I'd add KG and Duncan to that list of best scorers. In terms of how hot a player can get though, Bryant, Duncan, and Dirk are tops in the league, the sad thing is, is that when Kobe's off, he's decent, when Duncan's off, he's still good, and when Dirk's off, he's horrible


Thats not true, getting 20 points on 7-19 isnt horrible, thats basically an off game for him..He can still rebound, steal and block



[/quote]What? Jermaine's a decent scorer. 16th in the league is a decent scorer? Boy, I wish we had some bad scorers on the Pacers, they'd really help. [/QUOTE]
43% is decent


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>droppinknowledge</b>!
> 
> 
> dude. the thing is oneal is NOT CLUTCH. Artest plays with more heart than he does. he gets to 20 points and then stops scoring.


O'Neal is not clutch? I don't think the Pistons would say so. We go to JO downlow late in the game a lot, and he contributes a lot of the time. I'm not so sure Artest plays with more heart than JO, or rather he plays with a bigger mouth. Go to pacers.com, check how many times JO scored over 20, and get back to me. 



> Thats not true, getting 20 points on 7-19 isnt horrible, thats basically an off game for him..He can still rebound, steal and block


I'm talking about hot streaks....





> Offensive ability, being able to shoot over a small guy and make it, being able to drive past slower opponents and penetrate and get a foul or pull up for a midrange jumper


It takes such a talent to abuse players smaller than him. Are you a person who congradulates bullies when they steal little kids lunch money?





> What about the 122 (something like that) proffesional sports writers and GMs or wateva who vote for the teams


It's the superstar status that's getting him the award




> But he'd still be a much better offensive player than JO


Dirk isn't even "a much better offensive player than JO" right now; if he gave more energy on defense, what makes you think he wouldn't be worse than JO?

Theo, don't want to respond to your contradiction? What do you have to say for yourself before we hang you?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Dirks offense makes up for his average defense more than JOs defense makes up for his ok offense


Irk, ain't no D in Nowitzki, boy.


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## droppinknowledge (Aug 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> O'Neal is not clutch? I don't think the Pistons would say so. We go to JO downlow late in the game a lot, and he contributes a lot of the time. I'm not so sure Artest plays with more heart than JO, or rather he plays with a bigger mouth. Go to pacers.com, check how many times JO scored over 20, and get back to me.
> ...


show me five games in the past 4 years where J.O has single handidly carried the pacers to victory in the postseason.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Theo, don't want to respond to your contradiction? What do you have to say for yourself before we hang you?


Dirks wonderful defender . That one I posted where it had cons, that was ages ago. Im always changing my posts, I cant consistenly make a predictionss page with 5 things the same every time


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>droppinknowledge</b>!
> 
> 
> kevin garnett and Joe smith were on Dirk in that series. K.G is all world defensively. Joe Smith is no slouch defensilvey either.
> ...


Against only Ben Wallace without even having Rasheed Wallace, Dirk scored 14 points.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Well if he shoot 34% doesnt that mean that he hits 34 from 100 which is just over 1/3. 3pt shooting is not Dirks best attribute. But are you saying Voshon Lenard isnt good for a 3pt specialist


My bad, total mental lapse, I was thinking that 36.67 was 1/3. But anyway, if Veshon only hits 36.7% of his threes, and that's his best attribute, then yes, he is not a very good three point specialist

And what is Dirk's best attribute then? It sure isn't rebounding, defense, passing, or post play. He's known for being a tall guy that can shoot the three and slash, and he's more known for shooting than slashing.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> I'd add KG and Duncan to that list of best scorers. In terms of how hot a player can get though, Bryant, Duncan, and Dirk are tops in the league, the sad thing is, is that when Kobe's off, he's decent, when Duncan's off, he's still good, and when Dirk's off, he's horrible.


Great paragraph right there. When Jermaine's having an off shooting game, he still greatly impacts the game on defense and on the boards. Just look back the series with the Pistons. Jermaine went out for a couple possesions because of the knee (or eye or something) and the Pistons started attacking. Jermaine came right back in and makes a huge block. You don't see that with Nowitzki.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> But he'd still be a much better offensive player than JO


If Dirk even drops 1.8 points per game, he will average less than Jermaine.


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## Ryoga (Aug 31, 2002)

I respect any opinion, but someone needs really to be blind to even start a discussion about who's a better offensive player!

Dirk IN A OFF YEAR (when he started really slow, he wasn't recovered yet from the WCF injury. He even played the EC at a slower pace) did:
-shoot better from the 2pt
-shoot better from the 3pt
-shoot more (and better) FTs
this while making the opposite defence panic as only few players can do.

Jermaine is not a true post player, never really attacks the basket (no FTs), shoots a lot of Js (something Dirk does incredibly better) and is not a great passer.

There are dozens of players better than Jermaine on offence, please!


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ryoga</b>
> -shoot better from the 3pt


Why, Jermaine shooted some 3 ? :laugh:


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## Banjoriddim (Aug 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by Johnny Mac! If any NBA team could ever establish a soild and consistent zone defense, Dirk would quicly become a legit MVP canditate. Unfortunetly, that whole 3 second rule prevents a team from developing a good zone defence.


:yes:


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

> never really attacks the basket (no FTs),


Oneal Ranks #15 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts(460.0)
Dirk- Ranks #28 Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas Mavericks) .877 371 423


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

According to 82games.com, O'Neal drew fouls on 12% of his shots and converted free throws at 75.7% He made 348 and shot 460.

Dirk drew fouls on 12% of his shots and converted at 87.7%. He made 371 free throws and shot 423. 

They both draw fouls at the same rate. But O'Neal is a fearsome post player, while Dirk is a pansy perimeter player, right? So how do you explain this same rate of drawing fouls?

Also according to 82games.com, O'Neal has an eFG% of 0.589 on his inside shots (that's close + dunks + tips) and is blocked on *19%* of his inside shot attempts. Yes, that's 19%.

Dirk has an eFG% of .654 on his inside shots and is blocked just 7% of the time on his inside shot attempts. I thought Jermaine's post offense was better than Dirk's. Maybe that's wrong.

Apparently, Dirk's inside game is better than Jermaine's.


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

JO takes more and his inside shots are mostly posted up so his shots have a better chance of being blocked.


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

I think there is a huge misconception that because one player arguably has a better post game than another player, that player's offense is more valuable than the other's. In this case, some people claim that O'Neal has a better post game than Dirk, and that makes O'Neal's offense more valuable than Dirk's, even though Dirk has a better overall offensive game. This is not true.

There is nothing inherently better about a post game except that post players tend to shoot a better percentage than outside players and draw fouls better than outside players, making them more efficient offensive players. Notice that they *tend* to shoot a better percentage and to draw fouls better. Now, some of you might be saying that all championships except this last one and Michael Jordan's came because of a dominant post player. It's true on a superficial level, but the better statement is that all those championships plus Michael Jordan's championships came because of an *efficient* scorer (and team defense). Often, those scorers on championship teams were one of the most efficient in the NBA (see Jordan, Shaq). And the reason those scorers were often post players is that post players tend to be more efficient scorers.

In this case, with Dirk and Jermaine, the arguably better post player turns out NOT to be the more efficient scorer. Even using Jermaine's 2002-2003 FG%, which was 5 points better than his 2003-2004 percentage, Dirk still has a higher eFG%. 

It doesn't matter where your points come from, but it does matter how efficiently you can get them. Therefore, even though Jermaine might have a better post game, Dirk's offense is still more desirable.


----------



## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

Dirk


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## daschysta31 (Sep 18, 2004)

JO


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>droppinknowledge</b>!
> show me five games in the past 4 years where J.O has single handidly carried the pacers to victory in the postseason.


Jermaine has only had two years in the league as a real offensive threat, he's not a superstar post player like Tim Duncan or Shaq, but he is definately on the star level. There haven't been many games in the playoffs where Jermaine is "our only good player", frankly, due to our depth off the bench. When a starter is not having a good game, most likely a bench player will instead. There've been many games where Jermaine has pulled down like 24/13/4, but there is another player right behind him like Al Harrington, Fred Jones, or Ron Artest that get just as many or near points. Let's also not forget that this is Jermaine's first year out of the playoffs. In the past, the Pacers have only won 2 games at the most in the playoffs. This being Jermaine's first year out of the first round, I think he did quite well on a physical, emotional, and playing standpoint. He will be better next year, guarenteed.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Jermaine was the player who got blocked the most last year


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Dirk has a +18 +/- record and is second in the league, only behind Garnett.

JO isnt even in the top 10 (so I couldnt find him) and hes definately under +10


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Dirk has a +18 +/- record and is second in the league, only behind Garnett.
> 
> JO isnt even in the top 10 (so I couldnt find him) and hes definately under +10


I'm not sure where you're getting these stats or what your trying to prove, but that fact of the matter is that the gap between their defense is larger than the one between their offense, making JO the better player.


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

I gotta go with my boy Jermaine O'neal. In addition, he doesn't have the amazing shooting like Dirk, but it is good for a up and coming PF. His inside game is great and against the Kings his shooting was magnificant. Many people like Dirk because he is a flashy has great shooting ability. I think JO's inside game is underrated because he scores and isn't really noticed. If the Pacers had a lot of 3 point threats like Dallas... JO would have a lot better scoring numbers. There is no sense in arguing because if Dirk doesn't have career highs in points many people are going to be complaining about the lack of supporting cast.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Dirks more important to his team


The top 20 5-man units for Pacers, Jermaine appears 13 times

In the top 20 5-man units for Mavs, Dirk appears 16 times


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Dirks more important to his team
> 
> 
> ...


What the ****? I don't even understand 3/4 of the stats your bringing into this thread.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> What the ****? I don't even understand 3/4 of the stats your bringing into this thread.


Alright, on 82games they have some good stats. The one I just brought up is:

5-Man Units. They are the best 5-man units that each team has. For example the Mavs best one was Nash, Finley, Jamison, Walker and Nowitzki.

What I was saying that Dirk featured in 16 of the top 20 5-man units for the Mavs while Jermaine only got a mention in 13


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## FlyingTiger (Aug 4, 2002)

Dirk no doubt. no brainer..if you think JO is better you prob made 400 on your SAT


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Alright, on 82games they have some good stats.


You don't know that they're good as much as you suspect they are because they're unusual and not kept track of often.



> The one I just brought up is:
> 
> 5-Man Units. They are the best 5-man units that each team has. For example the Mavs best one was Nash, Finley, Jamison, Walker and Nowitzki.
> 
> What I was saying that Dirk featured in 16 of the top 20 5-man units for the Mavs while Jermaine only got a mention in 13


I must not get it. So that was the Mavs best one, how does Dirk get in others?



> Dirk no doubt. no brainer..if you think JO is better you prob made 400 on your SAT


This needs to be edited, insulting people's intelligence based on an opinion. Don't get the thread locked.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> I must not get it. So that was the Mavs best one, how does Dirk get in others?


For example, lets say number 1 is:

Walker, Dirk, Jamison, Nash and Finkey

number 2 could be

Dirk, Jamison, Nash, Finley and Daniels

number 3 could

Dirk, Howard, Daniels, Nash and Walker

etc etc


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>FlyingTiger</b>!
> Dirk no doubt. no brainer..if you think JO is better you prob made 400 on your SAT


As great as it is too have you on my side, could you keep those comments away. This is my most successful thread ever and I'm having fun (im sure others are aswell) debating. We dont want it to get locked now do we?


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> For example, lets say number 1 is:
> ...


I don't get the significance of that stat. If we're going by best lineups, both Dirk and Jermaine should be in all 20.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't get the significance of that stat. If we're going by best lineups, both Dirk and Jermaine should be in all 20.


Its going by how effective each lineup is. The first one that Dirks not in is Nash-Finley-Howard-Jamison-Walker


Anyway heres a link

Dallas 

Indiana 

I was just trying to show that Dirks more valuable


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Its going by how effective each lineup is. The first one that Dirks not in is Nash-Finley-Howard-Jamison-Walker
> ...


I still don't get how that proves who's more valuable, just off of some games in the season? Plus, this is asking who's better, not who's more valuable, in which Dirk is more valuable to the less consistent Mavericks. JO should be a lot more valuable to the Pacers this season as we don't have Mr. Al Harrington to score 40 points when he's gone.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

I wonder how many posts in this thread I've had. I cant wait for this year, Dirk should have a great year now that others have gone and we'll see if 43% was really a fluke. First big Dirk game, ima come into this thread and brag


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> I wonder how many posts in this thread I've had. I cant wait for this year, Dirk should have a great year now that others have gone and we'll see if 43% was really a fluke. First big Dirk game, ima come into this thread and brag


Too bad that I'll get to come in first


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Too bad that I'll get to come in first


Nuh uh, Dallas has an opening night game


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Heres my say

I think Dirk and JO are both "ovveratted" in their games They are both very good, but they do have noticable problems, with Dirks being defense and JO's being offensive efficiency. It depends on what you need. If a need a tough , rebounding sort of pf I want JO, but if a want a shooter, offensive pf, go with Dirk, especially if you have a tough inside minded center to pair off with him

i think they are about even, it all depends on how u want to construct your team


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Nuh uh, Dallas has an opening night game


So, it's too bad that Dirk will get shut down.



> Heres my say
> 
> I think Dirk and JO are both "ovveratted" in their games They are both very good, but they do have noticable problems, with Dirks being defense and JO's being offensive efficiency. It depends on what you need. If a need a tough , rebounding sort of pf I want JO, but if a want a shooter, offensive pf, go with Dirk, especially if you have a tough inside minded center to pair off with him
> 
> i think they are about even, it all depends on how u want to construct your team


Don't forget that with Jermaine, you also get an "inconsistent" 20ppg scorer. It's not like this is Ben Wallace vs Dirk. And with what you just said, I think this thread's about over.


----------



## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> So, it's too bad that Dirk will get shut down.
> ...


Chris Webber tends to shut Dirk down very well, just like the playoffs. 

Shame its over, I was having real fun. I've already given you 5 stars for this debate though


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Shame its over, I was having real fun. I've already given you 5 stars for this debate though


I was having fun too. I find it hard to believe that you're actually 13 years old, but, oh well. You've managed to maintain a 5-star vote from me know for about 3 months, I think.


----------



## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> I was having fun too. I find it hard to believe that you're actually 13 years old, but, oh well. You've managed to maintain a 5-star vote from me know for about 3 months, I think.


Thank you, it was good debating with you coz u had good points and didnt nut when I proved them terribely terribley wrong on numerous occasions


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Thank you, it was good debating with you coz u had good points and didnt nut when I proved them terribely terribley wrong on numerous occasions


What? Well, I'm glad you didn't get all physchotic when I proved once and for all that Jermaine O'Neal is better than Dirk Nowitzki.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

::coughs:: which he's not ::coughs::


----------



## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> What? Well, I'm glad you didn't get all physchotic when I proved once and for all that Jermaine O'Neal is better than Dirk Nowitzki.


I dont remember that


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont remember that


Guess we missed the memo :laugh:


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> I dont remember that


Various posts over 5 pages stating that though Dirk is a better offensive player, the gap between their defenses is much larger than the one between their offenses.

At least I'm not the one who continuously posted strange stats to try to make a point to the topic you didn't even ask, and contradicted myself.

It's all good. No hard feelings.


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## FlyingTiger (Aug 4, 2002)

ive said this a million times..if you ask all the GM's who would they rather have....at least 25 would pick dirk. its not even close. i can understand kobe vs tmac..but dirk vs oneal. ill prob take brand over oneal also..but thats another story.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> I wonder how many posts in this thread I've had. I cant wait for this year, Dirk should have a great year now that others have gone and we'll see if 43% was really a fluke. *First big Dirk game, ima come into this thread and brag *


Didn't have to wait to long

33 points
10 rebounds
5 assists
2 steals
3 blocks
3 turnovers
12-19 FG
2-2 3PT 
7-8 FT


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

Last year Jermaine had a far better season than Dirk, but this year it should be the other way around.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> Didn't have to wait to long
> ...


You're just lucky Jermaine's injured.


----------



## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RiDirkulous</b>!
> 
> 
> Didn't have to wait to long
> ...


Jermaine O'neal 11/12/04:

39 Points
9 Rebounds
3 Assists
4 Blocks
3 Turnovers
14/23 FG
11/11 FT

Ha!


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Um, just last night.

41 points
10 rebounds
4 assists
2 blocks
2 steals
2 turnovers
12-24 fg
4-7 3 pt
13-13 ft

lol


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## felka (Nov 2, 2004)

I'd take Dirk any second-he has brains and plays real basketball.J)-athletic stupid rich african-american with ZERO basketball IQ.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

JO


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> I'd take Dirk any second-he has brains and plays real basketball.J)-athletic stupid rich african-american with ZERO basketball IQ.


so do you racist


----------



## felka (Nov 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> 
> 
> so do you racist


I am not racist, but never saw inteligent afro-american bbballer. ( Duncan is not african)


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Jermaine O'neal 11/12/04:
> ...


With a sprained foot I might add!



> I'd take Dirk any second-he has brains and plays real basketball.J)-athletic stupid rich african-american with ZERO basketball IQ.


So no-passing, only shooting, and no defense is real basketball? Way to stereotype JO, by the way! No one likes a rascist, stereotypical guy that thinks that playing on one side of the court is real basketball.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> I am not racist, but never saw inteligent afro-american bbballer. ( Duncan is not african)


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> I am not racist, but never saw inteligent afro-american bbballer. ( Duncan is not african)


Emeka Okafor? David Robinson? Dikembe Mutumbo?


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

*not a racist?*



> I'd take Dirk any second-he has brains and plays real basketball.J)-athletic stupid rich african-american with ZERO basketball IQ.





> I am not racist, but never saw inteligent afro-american bbballer. ( Duncan is not african)


:upset:

I just wanted to say all "african-american" BBallers are smarter than you.

Well besides that the greatest of all time MJ is a very smart man. See I just have to point out one person and your whole argument goes to ****.


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## felka (Nov 2, 2004)

*Re: not a racist?*



> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


MJ was alien-he doesn't count.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: Re: not a racist?*



> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> MJ was alien-he doesn't count.


Actually, I believe he was African-American

Sam Cassell is another story...


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> I am not racist, but never saw inteligent afro-american bbballer. ( Duncan is not african)


you're a joke


----------



## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> I am not racist, but never saw inteligent afro-american bbballer. ( Duncan is not african)


I guess Reggie Miller is not very intelligent, Scottie Pippen isn't very intelligent. Just to name a couple of the best players to ever play the game.

Are you high right now, or are you 10 years old? Your other posts are pretty bad too, saying stuff about Jews... I think you've been edited about 10 times or more. LOL


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

JO's numbers for 11/13/04 vs. Knicks

33 points
12 rebounds
13-21 from the field
7-10 from the foul line
2 assists
2 turnovers
5 blocked shots
5 fouls
in 39 mins.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Dirks numbers vs NJN

31 points (10-18, 3-4. 8-11), 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 steals, 1 turnover in 43 minutes


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> JO's numbers for 11/13/04 vs. Knicks
> 
> 33 points
> ...


Beat me to it.


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## PoorPoorSonics (Mar 20, 2004)

Look, obviously they are both great players and put up amazing numbers night in and night out.

Dirk is just better however...by far.


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

Dirk Nowitzki

2004-05 Statistics 
PPG 27.3 
RPG 9.3 
APG 3.4 
SPG 1.71 
BPG 1.57 
FG% .500 
FT% .824 
3P% .478 
MPG 38.6 




Jermaine O'Neal 
2004-05 Statistics 
PPG 22.7 
RPG 8.5 
APG 1.3 
SPG .83 
BPG 2.67 
FG% .480 
FT% .731 
3P% .000 
MPG 31.8 

dirk has him in every category except blocks so far.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kmba</b>!
> Dirk Nowitzki
> 
> 2004-05 Statistics
> ...


You should post totals rather than averages, and also Jermaine has a bad foot, and he missed a game.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PoorPoorSonics</b>!
> Look, obviously they are both great players and put up amazing numbers night in and night out.
> 
> Dirk is just better however...by far.


At only one aspect of the game. Jermaine's better...by far at about 5 aspects of the game.


----------



## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> At only one aspect of the game. Jermaine's better...by far at about 5 aspects of the game.



For real, The only thing Dirk has on Jermaine is shooting.

Jermaine's a MUCH better defender,and big man than Dirk.


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: Re: not a racist?*



> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> MJ was alien-he doesn't count.


First you say Duncan isnt african-american now you say MJ doesnt count because he was an alien, stop making stupid excusses. 

Pippen, MJ, Marc Jackson, Emeka Okafor, David Robinson, Dikembe Mutumbo, Magic Johnson, Hakeem the dream, Reggie Miller. Sorry to say man but you are racist. That is like saying sorry to say White people can't dunk well, but that is false. Chris Anderson, Brent Barry, AK, Mike Miller. Just to name a few players who can dunk pretty well.


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> I am not racist, but never saw inteligent afro-american bbballer. ( Duncan is not african)


African-American doesnt mean you came from african?? I hope you know that. It goes back to many generations, even though I am from Jamaica.... I am still an african-american.


----------



## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rock747</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


50 percent shooting for dirk. he's outrebounding jermaine. has more dimes, has more steals per game. shoots it better from the line. the only thing jermaine is outdoing dirk in is blocks.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

Definitely Dirk is better. 

Both rely on jumpshots so much but Dirk has much higher %. Dirk creates the worst matchup nightmare in NBA. 

Sure, JO has a little bit better defense but Dirk aint that bad. He does quite a few steals and has better Defensive Rebounds. Dirk can't have many Offensive rebounds 'cause he takes jumpshots!! How can he get offensive rebound when he takes jumpshots? And most of the time, Dirk will stay outside the paint to draw the opponenet out, so naturally Dirk is NOT inside the paint that much. 

Dirk's passing has improved and if he can get better, he will be VERY DANGEROUS to guard. 

Overall, I can't see why JO is better. Defense aint everything you know. 

Jimmy


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

Wow Dirk has been Killing JO in stats this year and the only reason he doesnt have more all-star appearances is cuase he happens to play in the same division with KG, Duncan, Brand, ect.
So Dirk puts up those # against better compitition and JO cant dominate the East. Dirk is clearly the better player. Thats not to say JO is roadkill. I wouldnt complain if he was on the Mavs. But in the East a player like JO should have unbelievable #'s.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

Exactly! JO plays on the EAST and there are not that many great PF in the east. While Dirk needs to compete with two MVPs Duncan and KG. 

If Dirk is in the EAST, I am sure he'll get that all-star spot all the time.

Jimmy


----------



## Baron Davis (Apr 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> Wow Dirk has been Killing JO in stats this year and the only reason he doesnt have more all-star appearances is cuase he happens to play in the same division with KG, Duncan, Brand, ect.
> So Dirk puts up those # against better compitition and JO cant dominate the East. Dirk is clearly the better player. Thats not to say JO is roadkill. I wouldnt complain if he was on the Mavs. But in the East a player like JO should have unbelievable #'s.


It's not like Jermaine and the Pacers play the east 82 games every season. Remember the Pacers had the best record against the West last year.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I'll go with Dirk, but Jermaine O'Neal is no slouch. The reason why Dirk, is a threat to have 25+ every single night. With Jermaine, you know he is going to give you games where he can't get 20, because he is a Center and he falls in love with the 15 footer.

Yes he is a a Center, not a PF.


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## Zach (May 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>OG</b>!
> Dirk thinks he's a SF. I'd take JO any day, in fact I'd take Jermaine over most players.



He is. He played SF for the German team, and when Nelli plays him at SF, he is most comfortable.


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> It's not like Jermaine and the Pacers play the east 82 games every season. Remember the Pacers had the best record against the West last year.


That means nothing when you only play each team in the West twice as opposed to 4 times if you are in the West. This isnt an arguement about how good the Pacers are and if it was there could be arguement that JO isnt even the best player on his own team. BUT this is a right now whose better Dirk or JO. Dirk has WAY better #'s as it was shown earlier in this thread. But as stated before, thats not an insult against JO he is a monster too.


----------



## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

I'll stick with Jermaine, but Dirk could surpass him this year if he keeps up the dominance.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

The only reason why Dirk has more steals is beacuse he is faster than Jermaine.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> I'll stick with Jermaine, but Dirk could surpass him this year if he keeps up the dominance.


Good for you :greatjob:


----------



## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> The only reason why Dirk has more steals is beacuse he is faster than Jermaine.


lol ok man. that's just a totally blah argument:laugh:


----------



## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

Jermaine:
136 points
6 games played
4 games started
191 mins.
49-102 from the field
0-1 3pt.
38-52 Free throws
16 offensive rebounds
35 defensive rebounds
51 total rebounds
8 asst.
5 steals
16 blocks
21 turnovers
21 fouls

Dirk:
191 points
7 games
7 games started
270 minutes
62-124 from the field
11-23 3pts.
56-68 Free throws
7 offensive rebounds 
:grinning: 
58 defensive rebounds
65 total rebounds
24 asst. (he gets ball out of paint more)
12 steals (he's faster)
11 blocks
17 turnovers
24 fouls

If Jermaine has played as much as Dirk I'm sure their number would be very similar
Dirk avg. mins.: 38.6
Jermaine's avg mins.: 31.8


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kmba</b>!
> 
> 
> lol ok man. that's just a totally blah argument:laugh:


Yeah that was a stupid thing to say, but it's true


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

I think these two are pretty much on even ground. Both of these guys are putting up great numbers and helping their teams win games as the first option. JO is playing hurt right now and Dirk has been healthy for the start of the season and they are pretty much even. So I say wait about 10-15 game and see.


----------



## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> I think these two are pretty much on even ground. Both of these guys are putting up great numbers and helping their teams win games as the first option. JO is playing hurt right now and Dirk has been healthy for the start of the season and they are pretty much even. So I say wait about 10-15 game and see.


I agree, but since JO's the man on my team I have to go w/ him.


----------



## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Dirk vs. Wizards

38 minutes
32 points (10-15 from the field, 3/4 from 3, 9/11 f.t.)
13 rebounds
5 assist
1 steal

Only a bad stat, 7 turnovers


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## FlyingTiger (Aug 4, 2002)

if you think J.oneal is better then dirk, then you have no brain.


----------



## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kmba</b>!
> 
> 
> lol ok man. that's just a totally blah argument:laugh:


Not really. If you watch Dallas games enough when Nash was still there, Dirk actually ran pretty fast for a 7 feet guy. He always runs with Nash and takes jumpshots when the opponents were still behind them. Dirk is NOT slow, that's for sure. 

Dirk just had another great game today.  Good for him. If he can Stackhouse and keep up the numbers, Dallas will have a great year. 

Jimmy


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> The only reason why Dirk has more steals is beacuse he is faster than Jermaine.


Isnt that part of being better then somebody?


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FlyingTiger</b>!
> if you think J.oneal is better then dirk, then you have no brain.


Then I have no brain. 

But hey, I do have the team who had the best record last year, and JO is who led them to that. Dirk and the Mavs can continue to get bounced from the playoffs by better teams.

Take defence into account, which dirk has none. Im tired of dirk fans says hes average on D. Hes horrible on D. One of the worst.


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> Then I have no brain.
> ...


And what, pray tell, have the Pacers done? Nothing the Mavs havent.


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> And what, pray tell, have the Pacers done? Nothing the Mavs havent.


Oh yeah, 1 ecf champ.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> And what, pray tell, have the Pacers done? Nothing the Mavs havent.


Best record in the league last year speaks for itself. As does taking the Pistons farther than anyone else, while being injured. Ask the pistons, the Pacers were the hardest team they faced in the playoffs.

Speaking of the pistons, they won with defence. Keep trying to outscore the league while playing no d, and you'll continue to be a good team, that no one considers a threat for the title.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, 1 ecf champ.


When the Mavs make the finals, come talk to me.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> Best record in the league last year speaks for itself. As does taking the Pistons farther than anyone else, while being injured. Ask the pistons, the Pacers were the hardest team they faced in the playoffs.
> ...


That's why Mavs now has better defense players and Dirk can concentrate more on offense which he does best. :yes: 

Jimmy


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jibikao</b>!
> 
> 
> That's why Mavs now has better defense players and Dirk can concentrate more on offense which he does best. :yes:
> ...


Ill admit to not having watched them much this season. Hopefully your right, the mavs could turn from good to great with a little concentration on the other end of the court.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> Ill admit to not having watched them much this season. Hopefully your right, the mavs could turn from good to great with a little concentration on the other end of the court.


As long as they play "good" defense, that's good enough to win games. Before, there are times when they have almost no defense at all but that's probbably because they were undersize (they were in last playoff) and they have many soft players. 

Jason Terry, Erick and Josh Howard should provide better defense this year. And Dirk isn't doing too bad himself. 

Jimmy


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

Dallas plays defense? Today against the wizards you put up 122 but gave up 113 and let 4 people on the other team get 20 each? It happens every year in the playoffs... you guys won't make it past the second round IMHO. No defense = no chance at a title.


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> Best record in the league last year speaks for itself. As does taking the Pistons farther than anyone else, while being injured. Ask the pistons, the Pacers were the hardest team they faced in the playoffs.
> ...


lol the mavs have won 50 plus games 4 times. the pacers have only done it once with j.o there

the mavs also tied the spurs for the best record in the nba 2 years ago. 

and the mavs are FIRST IN OPPOSING TEAMS FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE AND THREE POINT PERCENTAGE.

what's next?

:laugh:


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Thats how I see it as well. No matter how good you can put it in the bucket, you wont beat another quality team who plays defence in 7 games.


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> Dallas plays defense? Today against the wizards you put up 122 but gave up 113 and let 4 people on the other team get 20 each? It happens every year in the playoffs... you guys won't make it past the second round IMHO. No defense = no chance at a title.


that was the mav first opponent to score 100 on them. they had held 7 consecutive opponents under 100.

they are also 1st in the nba in opponent field goal percentage from 2 and 3 land

stoptrying to use ONE GAME to measure this team. :laugh: the mavs were allowing 91 ppg before todays 113 by the wizards. it'll jump up to maybe 94 or 95 now.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

Okay lets look at how many points Dallas gives up a game so far. 

Sacramento W 107 - 98
New Orleans W 106 - 91
Memphis W 112 - 88
Golden State W 101 - 98
Orlando L 84 - 94
Miami W 113 - 93
New Jersey W 94 - 78
Washington W 122-113

You guys are giving up an average of 94 points a game that is pretty close to that 100 mark and if NJ wasn't so terrible you guys would average giving up pretty much 100 points a game. Now in that streak of not giving up 100 points teams scored 98 twice! People don't talk about not giving up 100 points when just last year Detroit... the eventual champions were holding people to under 70 points. Lets face it Dallas does not defend the basketball good enough to win a championship. Maybe I'm wrong but only time will tell that story.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

If you're only going by the boxscores, then you need to see more Dallas games. Dallas has been well in command in many of those games. Their defense has been very good.

When you score over 100 ppg, more often then not, your opponent will be closer to 100, because there are more possessions, than if both teams slowed it down to a snail's pace.

You should never look at the amount of points given up. Look at the point differential. That's the mark of a great team. 

Although, point differential is meaningless till about 15-20 games into the season.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Yeah. Dallas' team defense has been much improved, they just play such a fast paced offensive game that the otehr team will score pretty high.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> If you're only going by the boxscores, then you need to see more Dallas games. Dallas has been well in command in many of those games. Their defense has been very good.
> 
> When you score over 100 ppg, more often then not, your opponent will be closer to 100, because there are more possessions, than if both teams slowed it down to a snail's pace.
> ...


Good point.  

And come on, Pistons game is so boring to watch. They are so physical too. I dont' think Pistons will make it this year. We'll see how Pistons does when Ben Wallace comes back. 

I would love to see teams like Dallas, Suns and Kings to win a championship to prove that great offense can win. (I hate Kings by the way but they are small balls too).

Jimmy


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

Dallas Is giving up 91.4 ppg as opposed to Indianas 99.1.

So if youre using that as you argement thats a bad idea buddy.


----------



## Kuskid (Aug 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> The only reason why Dirk has more steals is beacuse he is faster than Jermaine.


That's like saying "he only makes 3 pointers because he has a good jump shot." Quickness is a big part of defense, you can't penalize someone for having it.


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

As a matter of fact Dallas is 1st in opponents field goal %. That would give them the #1 D in the league thus far.


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> Okay lets look at how many points Dallas gives up a game so far.
> 
> Sacramento W 107 - 98
> ...


very good argument. the pissedons weren't holding teams under 70 all year. and it's funny you bring up the nets and sucking cause that's the team detroit was holding under 70. plus the pacers have the benefit of playing teams that can't score in the east 4 times a year. also the warriors scored 98 points in an OT GAME. you seem to have left those "2 lil initials at the end of the warriors score" off :laugh: also the kings shot 41 percent against the mavs but they attempted 87 shots. you score more when you shoot more but they couldn't even reach 100 with that many attempts. THAT'S DEFENSE


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> Dallas Is giving up 91.4 ppg as opposed to Indianas 99.1.
> 
> So if youre using that as you argement thats a bad idea buddy.


dargnsmke you gotta include today's 113 for the wiz so it'll go up to around 94 points a game

they are 1st in opposing teams fieldgoal percent from 2 and 3 land though as well as being top 10 in steals as well


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## radronOmega (Aug 1, 2004)

*re*

Jermaine. It's as simple as the KG and TD arguement. JO has intangibles. He is an inside presence. He clogs the lane for oppoents. He can block shots. He plays defense. His team wins.

Simple. Dirk is good and all but he has to prove to me that he can utilize his size on the inside instead of becoming a seven foot jumpshooter all day. WHen your shot is off, it's off. When it's on it's on. When you have an inside presence you can always rely on that every time.

Also, Jermaine plays through injury. He has heart. I'm not sure about Dirk...


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

*Re: re*



> Originally posted by <b>radronOmega</b>!
> Jermaine. It's as simple as the KG and TD arguement. JO has intangibles. He is an inside presence. He clogs the lane for oppoents. He can block shots. He plays defense. His team wins.
> 
> Simple. Dirk is good and all but he has to prove to me that he can utilize his size on the inside instead of becoming a seven foot jumpshooter all day. WHen your shot is off, it's off. When it's on it's on. When you have an inside presence you can always rely on that every time.
> ...


"Also, Jermaine plays through injury. He has heart. I'm not sure about Dirk..."

- No, Dirk is a zombie.... :devil: 

Jimmy


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: re*



> Also, Jermaine plays through injury. He has heart. I'm not sure about Dirk...


Dirk had 2 teeth knocked out in the playoffs against Utah. He came back and led them from 2 games down to win the series. That has some heart to it. I will admit that he didnt seem to take the final shot in crunch time but his options werent bad. When you have Nash and Fin and NVE and Jamison and Walker and Juwon Howard and you get my point.


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

*Re: Re: re*



> Originally posted by <b>jibikao</b>!
> 
> 
> "Also, Jermaine plays through injury. He has heart. I'm not sure about Dirk..."
> ...


dirk has only missed 14 games the past 5 seasons. you wanna compare that to how many games j.o has missed?

dirk also played a full season with bone spurs in both ankles that required off season surgery. 2 months later he was playing for germany in the world ships

what's next?

:laugh:


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

*Re: Re: re*



> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> Dirk had 2 teeth knocked out in the playoffs against Utah. He came back and led them from 2 games down to win the series. That has some heart to it. I will admit that he didnt seem to take the final shot in crunch time but his options werent bad. When you have Nash and Fin and NVE and Jamison and Walker and Juwon Howard and you get my point.


This is why not having those players will make Dirk a better player/leadership. Nash has always been a leader but he is getting old (  ) and Dirk still has quite a few years ahead of him. It's time for Dirk to step up. 

Jimmy


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

*Re: Re: re*



> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> Dirk had 2 teeth knocked out in the playoffs against Utah. He came back and led them from 2 games down to win the series. That has some heart to it. I will admit that he didnt seem to take the final shot in crunch time but his options werent bad. When you have Nash and Fin and NVE and Jamison and Walker and Juwon Howard and you get my point.


that was against the spurs mayne! he scored 42 points and grabbed 18 boards in that same game


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

> Dirk had 2 teeth knocked out in the playoffs against Utah. He came back and led them from 2 games down to win the series. That has some heart to it. I will admit that he didnt seem to take the final shot in crunch time but his options werent bad. When you have Nash and Fin and NVE and Jamison and Walker and Juwon Howard and you get my point.


I remember a playoff series when he hurt his knee or somthing and he sat out the rest of the series. People were questioning his heart then. Saying that you play if you can walk. His reasons for not playing was because he didn't want to injure his knee any more but he could have played. Don't flame me for this maybe I don't know everything about the situation I just remember it like that.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> 
> 
> I remember a playoff series when he hurt his knee or somthing and he sat out the rest of the series. People were questioning his heart then. Saying that you play if you can walk. His reasons for not playing was because he didn't want to injure his knee any more but he could have played. Don't flame me for this maybe I don't know everything about the situation I just remember it like that.


Are you talking about the playoff game against Spurs 1 year ago?? Did you watch that series?

Dirk did hurt his knee and he DID want to play. But his teammates/coaches/owner wanted him to stay out. They can't afford to have Dirk getting hurt more. If you want a clear example, Grant Hill. What a brillant player but suffers from so much injury. 

Jimmy


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

> Dirk did hurt his knee and he DID want to play. But his teammates/coaches/owner wanted him to stay out.


Insert MJ into that sentence here I'll do it for you.



> Michael Jordan did hurt his knee and he DID want to play. But his teammates/coaches/owner wanted him to stay out.


Now do you think MJ WOULD NOT PLAY? I don't think so.


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> 
> 
> I remember a playoff series when he hurt his knee or somthing and he sat out the rest of the series. People were questioning his heart then. Saying that you play if you can walk. His reasons for not playing was because he didn't want to injure his knee any more but he could have played. Don't flame me for this maybe I don't know everything about the situation I just remember it like that.


dirk had a strained mcl. there was NO WAY he could play the final 3 games of the WCF series kid. he couldn't walk so how could he play? lol


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> 
> 
> Insert MJ into that sentence here I'll do it for you.
> ...


Not if your coach doesn't want you to play... 

And plus, letting their franchise player to rest is a good thing in my opinion. You can't afford to have a glass-player like Grant Hill and Marcus Camby. Now JO is injured and Pacers better let him heal well before the playoffs or they'll pay for their mistake. 

Jimmy


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

Well if he couldn't walk that was fine... read my post. I remember he could play that why there was talk about it. It wasn't like the Webber where he just could not play.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

> And plus, letting their franchise player to rest is a good thing in my opinion. You can't afford to have a glass-player like Grant Hill and Marcus Camby. Now JO is injured and Pacers better let him heal well before the playoffs or they'll pay for their mistake.


What? Letting you franchise player rest while you go on to lose a playoff series because of it? This is not the regular season... this is the PLAYOFFS. The great ones play through injures if it is possible. Now if the man couldn't walk he doesn't play. But if the man can walk he plays IMHO.


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

You can sit a player when Your line up is still Nash, NVE, Finley, and LaFoulz. The Mavs felt they could still win and if you remember correctly the Mavs where still DESTROYING the Spurs until the 4th when NVE forgot how to dribble and Steven Jackson and Kerr decided to shoot and MAKE a seasons worth of three pointers in 1 quarter.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> 
> 
> What? Letting you franchise player rest while you go on to lose a playoff series because of it? This is not the regular season... this is the PLAYOFFS. The great ones play through injures if it is possible. Now if the man couldn't walk he doesn't play. But if the man can walk he plays IMHO.


That's in your opinion totally. Magic could have a great team when both T-Mac and Grant Hill were together. But guess what? That damn leg. You are right. That damn leg costs Magic so much trouble. 

Can Dallas afford to have an injured Dirk when he just starts to shine? With Nash and Finely getting old? 

In an owner's point of view (Mark Cuban), he won't let Dirk play even if he wants to. I guess Dirk can hob throughout the game but that doesn't guarantee a win (against Spurs!) and there's a HIGH chance to further injure that leg. I wouldn't take that chance if I were Cuban. 

Jimmy


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> You can sit a player when Your line up is still Nash, NVE, Finley, and LaFoulz. The Mavs felt they could still win and if you remember correctly the Mavs where still DESTROYING the Spurs until the 4th when NVE forgot how to dribble and Steven Jackson and Kerr decided to shoot and MAKE a seasons worth of three pointers in 1 quarter.


That Steve Kerr was sick man! Dallas almost had that game but that old man just kept draining 3.....sigh.

Jimmy


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

> You can sit a player when Your line up is still Nash, NVE, Finley, and LaFoulz. The Mavs felt they could still win and if you remember correctly the Mavs where still DESTROYING the Spurs until the 4th when NVE forgot how to dribble and Steven Jackson and Kerr decided to shoot and MAKE a seasons worth of three pointers in 1 quarter.


My point is you can't miss your opportunites. They could've won that series and won a championship THAT YEAR. They were so close if Dirk would've played they might have won, but he didn't play they lost and they may never win a championship!


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> 
> 
> My point is you can't miss your opportunites. They could've won that series and won a championship THAT YEAR. They were so close if Dirk would've played they might have won, but he didn't play they lost and they may never win a championship!


As a Mav fan I am glad he sat out. Just because hes in the game doesnt mean thats a garranteed win. With him in the Game we were bigger. That made it easier for TD and Robinson. With him out we were really small and SA had a hard time matching up. Who knows what would have happened but I do know the Mavs dominated the Spurs in that game for 3 quarters. And Im talking pure domination. But you only have to win 1 quarter to win the game. Amd they won game 5 without Dirk anyway.


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> Well if he couldn't walk that was fine... read my post. I remember he could play that why there was talk about it. It wasn't like the Webber where he just could not play.



dude webber is one of the most injury pfs in nba history. let's not compare him to dirk . dirk has missed 14 games in the past 5 years man. if he could have played he would have BEEN OUT THERE. he was questionable for game six and doubtful for games 4 and 5. this is ridiculous man. now peeps trying to say dirk is injury prone. mad funny:laugh:


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

This is getting a bit ridiculous...

Just because Dirk sat out one playoff game, he suddenly becomes a "heartless" player and that he is inferior to JO???

And please don't compare Dirk with CWeb. 

Jimmy


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

I didn't compare the two. Who compared Dirk to Cwebb? I sure didn't BUT why not make the comparison? 

Look at their carrer numbers.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dirk_nowitzki/index.html

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_webber/index.html

Now tell me they don't deserve a comparison. Cwebb averges more points, assists, blocks, steals, rebounds and has a better FG% than Dirk for their carrers.

Chris Webber was a controversial call and a Robert Horry shot away from the Finals and most likely a Championship. Can you say the same for Dirk?

I'm just asking WHY can't they be compared.


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> I didn't compare the two. Who compared Dirk to Cwebb? I sure didn't BUT why not make the comparison?
> 
> Look at their carrer numbers.
> ...


Because Webber has constantly clutched defeat from the jaws of victory...


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> I didn't compare the two. Who compared Dirk to Cwebb? I sure didn't BUT why not make the comparison?
> 
> Look at their carrer numbers.
> ...


dirk is a top six nba player. cwebb isnt even top20 anymore. THAT'S WHY. when is the last time webber has played 60 games in a season? 

one thing you failed to point out was what dirk's playoff averages compared to CWEBBS are. nice try though


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Did any of you people actually see the game vs San Antonio when he was out. Did you see what happened to his knee? It had to be one of the more gruesome clips I've ever seen. His knee was in a contortionist-type position, but it was worse


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> Dallas Is giving up 91.4 ppg as opposed to Indianas 99.1.
> 
> So if youre using that as you argement thats a bad idea buddy.


Except for the fact that Indy is the most banged up team in the league right now.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Well LBJthefuturegoat and myself shouldnt bother with this thread anymore. Theres no possible way we're going to convince a bunch of dirk fans they're wrong, just as they wont convince me Im wrong either. The only thing that will settle this argument is to see who gets farther this year.

I dont see any possible argument for the Mavs being better than a full strength Indy team, but I am bias so that could be why.

Regardless, lets let the season do the talking.


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## DaBobZ (Sep 22, 2003)

It's hard to compare a very good and talented classical PF and a player like Dirk.... 
Dirk is all but not a classical PF, he's a unique player !
Compare TD, KG, CWebb and JO as much as you want but Dirk is nowhere near these players, wich one of them can shoot the 3 for example? Dirk is a very special... you can't compare players than aren't in the same category even if they do play at the same position.


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> Except for the fact that Indy is the most banged up team in the league right now.


you act like stack, fin, dirk, and daniels didnt miss damn near all or parts of training camp and the mavs are still 7 and 1

you act like fin aint hurt right now. you act like the mavs didn't have to play to BACK TO BACKS on the road this year and still sit at 7 and 1


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

R-Stars right, it's not like Pacers Fan is going to come in and go "Wow, you've changed my mind, Dirk is better" or like I'm going to come in and say "JO *IS* better than Dirk"

But..It is fun arguing


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## mavsman (Jun 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> Well LBJthefuturegoat and myself shouldnt bother with this thread anymore. Theres no possible way we're going to convince a bunch of dirk fans they're wrong, just as they wont convince me Im wrong either. The only thing that will settle this argument is to see who gets farther this year.
> 
> I dont see any possible argument for the Mavs being better than a full strength Indy team, but I am bias so that could be why.
> ...


Good points however I think most people would agree that it is easier to go farther into the playoffs in the East than it is in the West.

Personally I could not care less who is better Dirk or JO. They are both great players. The only thing I care about is how many wins the Mavs have and how far they make it in the playoffs.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kmba</b>!
> 
> 
> you act like stack, fin, dirk, and daniels didnt miss damn near all or parts of training camp and the mavs are still 7 and 1
> ...


First off, type real words, or I wont reply again. Second, what have you brought up that compares with playing your first 4 games without 3 starters? We still dont have 2 of our starters in the lineup and JO is nowhere near 100%.

Every post of yours reaks of fan boy BS. I bring up 3 starters being out this season, and you bring up training camp? Are you kidding me? Your right, the mavs are the best team, and the most injured team, and the prettiest looking team. 

Does this make you happy, "Mavs are the number 1 team in the league, Dirk will be MVP, Dampier DPOY and Daniels MIP. Without a doubt the mavs will win the title the next 5 years." 
There, that make you happy?

You and HEATLUNATIC should realy meet up, your very similar.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mavsman</b>!
> 
> 
> Good points however I think most people would agree that it is easier to go farther into the playoffs in the East than it is in the West.
> ...


I know Im one in a small few, but I dont agree with the west is better than the east argument anymore. Pistons won the title, its also arguable that the Pistons, Pacers and Hear are top 5 teams (it is arguable).

I do agree though, individual success means nothing if the team doest produce. Both players are easily top 10 guys, so this argument wont be solved.


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## DirtyDirk41 (Nov 15, 2004)

Anyone check the stats so far this season?

Dirk by a HUGE margin.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DirtyDirk41</b>!
> Anyone check the stats so far this season?
> 
> Dirk by a HUGE margin.


You sir need to be shot. Stats don't tell the whole story. JO has been playing hurt and if you look at his last 2 games when he has been getting minutes then you will see that it is way closer that a "HUGE margin" that you say.

Last 2 games by JO.

33 PTS 13-21 FGM-A 7-10 FTM-A 12 REB	2 AST 5 BL	2 TO 39 Min 

39 PTS 14-23 FGM-A 11-11 FTM-A 9 REB	3 AST 4 BL	3 TO 42 Min


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## DirtyDirk41 (Nov 15, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> 
> 
> You sir need to be shot. Stats don't tell the whole story. JO has been playing hurt and if you look at his last 2 games when he has been getting minutes then you will see that it is way closer that a "HUGE margin" that you say.
> ...


Oh boo-hoo, cry me a river. Dirk has had ankle problems the whole offseason and still isnt 100 percent, yet hes averaging almost 30 PPG and 10 RPG.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

> Oh boo-hoo, cry me a river. Dirk has had ankle problems the whole offseason and still isnt 100 percent, yet hes averaging almost 30 PPG and 10 RPG.


Dirk is averging 38.5 MPG he doesn't seem the to be slowed by an ankle by any means. In fact he ranks #4 in minutes played. 

Check back in about 10 games and see what both of these guys are doing. I'm just saying it's a whole lot closer than that "HUGE MARGIN".


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> I know Im one in a small few, but I dont agree with the west is better than the east argument anymore. Pistons won the title, its also arguable that the Pistons, Pacers and Hear are top 5 teams (it is arguable).
> ...



lol YOURE JOKING RIGHT? there are 8 teams in the west who are just as good as the top four teams in the east. hilarious. dirk's stats are better than oneals cept for blocks. case closed


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Enter the Conversation: Amare Stoudemire who is playing like an All-NBA'er


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## XYRYX (Jul 29, 2002)

Dirk is better because he takes his team to the next level right now. Without him, the Mavs are a complete different team. He is the leader!

Jermaine is really good. He Is in the league now for so long and now is one of the elite forwards. But in my opinion he isn't the reason why the pacers are so good. He is part of the story but isn't the reason. Artest easily is as much important as Jermaine. He is a freak, but is the soul of the Pacers team. If he wouldn't be there, they wouldn't be that good. 

It's close compared to stats. But Dirk is more clutch and isn't afraid of taking the game over in close games. O'Neal hasn't shown that type of leadership to me right now. 

It's not even sure if Jermaine is the best player on his team. 

Jermaine = or < Artest

Dirk > Artest

So I'll take Dirk, but not by a huge margin. Just because of his clutchness and his leadership qualitees.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

Jermaine can punch


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## Donkey Wearing Thong (Nov 20, 2004)

O'Neal easily.
Dirk can shoot. Thats it. His rebounding is pretty crappy, and his defense is embarassing.
Dallas had some talented players last year, yet still couldnt get pass the 1st round of the playoffs. That shows me Dirk doesnt have what it takes.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kmba</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> lol YOURE JOKING RIGHT? there are 8 teams in the west who are just as good as the top four teams in the east. hilarious. dirk's stats are better than oneals cept for blocks. case closed


The top two teams in the East, Indiana and Detroit, are better than any team in the West. Then Miami is better than the 3rd best team in the West. Then the West is better the rest of the way down.

1. East
2. East
3. West
4. West
5. East


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## J19 (Nov 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Donkey Wearing Thong</b>!
> O'Neal easily.
> Dirk can shoot. Thats it. His rebounding is pretty crappy, and his defense is embarassing.
> Dallas had some talented players last year, yet still couldnt get pass the 1st round of the playoffs. That shows me Dirk doesnt have what it takes.



Nice...


Dirk drives the ball, hes second in the league behind Kobe in Free throws


Dirk is a good ball handler and passer.


He's not a terrible defender at all, most coaches in the NBA will tell you this

He's just not a man on man NBA defender He's going to get steals and blocks for you but probably 1 a game


THe man averages 9 rebs per game isnt that enough for a 25 ppg scorer??

Dirk is the most talented offensive big man in the NBA You can't guard him he's either too big or too fast for defenders


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## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

Tell Jermaine that Dirk is better than him to his face......do it....:laugh:


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> The top two teams in the East, Indiana and Detroit, are better than any team in the West. Then Miami is better than the 3rd best team in the West. Then the West is better the rest of the way down.
> ...


lol!!!!!!!!!

that's just not smart.


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## J19 (Nov 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> Tell Jermaine that Dirk is better than him to his face......do it....:laugh:



So he can sucker punch me while im on my knees on the floor? :laugh:


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

Well, JO is basically out this season to compete with Dirk (stats wise)....

But Dirk just got an injury...WTF!!!

Jimmy


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## kmba (Nov 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jibikao</b>!
> Well, JO is basically out this season to compete with Dirk (stats wise)....
> 
> But Dirk just got an injury...WTF!!!
> ...


yep he's missed 13 games in six years. j.o has missed about 30 the past 4 years


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kmba</b>!
> 
> 
> yep he's missed 13 games in six years. j.o has missed about 30 the past 4 years


I want Dirk to compete for the MVP!! He can't have injuries... lol 

I hope it's nothing serious... I mean Mavs just lost a nasty game. So many key players are out... shoot.

Jimmy


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

BUMP!


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

lol


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

Bump.

JO with 55/11/3/2 in 36 minutes, 18-28 from the floor, and 19-25 from the line.

2nd All-Time Pacers record.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

He ****ing killed it, I wish he coulda played a bit more.


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## Rafaelaraujotody (Jul 16, 2004)

I still prefer Dirk over J.O.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rafaelaraujotody</b>!
> I still prefer Dirk over J.O.


me too


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rafaelaraujotody</b>!
> I still prefer Dirk over J.O.


I still prefer JO over Dirk. The inside threat JO opposes is just too great.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

Jermaine can't take over the game? 5 out of 6 games with 30+ points plus and great 4th quarters where he single-handedly dominated qualifies as clutch and being able to take over games.


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> I still prefer JO over Dirk. The inside threat JO opposes is just too great.


I still would take JO and a bucket of chicken..he is just that good.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> Jermaine can't take over the game? 5 out of 6 games with 30+ points plus and great 4th quarters where he single-handedly dominated qualifies as clutch and being able to take over games.


Team record = 3-3.

Personally, I'd prefer my team to be better. (Doesn't mean I think Jo's better than Dirk though)


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## mff4l (Dec 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> Jermaine can't take over the game? 5 out of 6 games with 30+ points plus and great 4th quarters where he single-handedly dominated qualifies as clutch and being able to take over games.


lol yall got blown out what 3 times in the past 4 games? I wouldn't be talking at all. And each time the man j.o has been guarding has either outscored him or put out almost identical numbers against him. He's not shutting anyone down (where's the d j.o?) nor is his team winning. They've been getting embarrassed as would I be if I was a pacers fan bragging about beating the grizz right now.


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