# Draft Gooden is a mistake?



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Why West doesn't want to draft Amare or Nene Hilario?

trade Gooden is another mistake.

mistake + mistake = correct?


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## piri (Feb 9, 2003)

I agree with you. Draft Gooden was a big mistake, but...

I think that change a player wh plays in the best covered position of the grizzlies (the only well covered perhaps?) for another player who assures you more ppg and the same rebounds. Miller is a good shooter and Memphis needs that. AND A BIG CENTER, but that is another problem.


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## W1Z0C0Z (Jun 18, 2002)

Like I've said before.. if anyone (other then the Suns if even them) pretend they knew Amare would play like this your definetly lying.

I liked Nene and was exceited when the Knicks drafted him, but how could you pick Nene over Gooden.

Gooden was a huge time player at a big time college program. Nene was going against foreign guys and putting up nice numbers. Same position, everything close, but Gooden owning against college players.. Nene going against no competition and not even putting up better numbers....

Now if you said they should have drafted Caron Butler.. I would argue a little but not nearly as much. Gooden put up better numbers and deserved to be higher, but he doesn't fit in the rotation.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

I didn't like gooden pick, and trade for miller is even worse.

getting successively less value...


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

I do not hold West to the question "Why didn't you draft Amare?"

But there are a few questions I still have for Jerry West.

Before the draft, he was so into Drew Gooden, that he failed to hold workouts with several other of the top 10 picks. Meaning West failed to see some of the best talent out there and just went off of what he felt for Gooden.

To trade away your first round draft pick half way through the season, is like admitting you made a mistake (drafted the wrong person).

Meaning drafting Gooden was a waste if you would only trade him away. I was a guy who said "Why don't the Grizzlies draft Caron or Dajuan?" Everytime I asked that, I got ripped into shreds. But looking at Dickerson's uncertain future (will he be 100% again), such a draft pick my not have been so bad after all. Instead of the Grizzlies drafting a player at a position they already have covered, they should have drafted elsewhere.


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## grizzoistight (Jul 16, 2002)

*it said on espn*

that west wanted dunleavy but he was gone 
so he took the bap
oh well gooden isnt bad.. give him time


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Well, the magic must be glad they drafted Gooden. Once again, the magic organization made a huge steal... 2 starters for Mike Miller and scrub...


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## ?^_^? (Feb 21, 2003)

if they gonna trade gooden then why draft him in the first place ?? they should've drafted amare or nene, either one of them have more up-sides than gooden, amare and nene are same type of player, highly athletic, jump out of gym with no range type, plus nene is about one inch taller.

yes as for now gooden is a more complete player than those 2 but i dont think he will be a better player in the long run.
and its just a dumb decision for grizz to draft gooden, thats all
we'll see who gets the better end of the deal.


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## Lakers_32_4ever (Dec 30, 2002)

draft was fine. trade a nono


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

i think one of the problems with the gms around the league is they draft guys by how they are ranked by the scouts regardless of whether they need that positon or not.dunleavy was the 3rd ranked player and g.s.took him and they didnt need a wing player and memphis took gooden when they already had gasol at the 4 and drew hadnt shown the ability to play facing the basket.i agree with the guy who said nobody knew about stoudemire,as a matter of fact before the draft most people had him going 15th(i believe)to orlando.i cant understand the miller to memphis move because all you were hearing was miller doesnt play defense.how does that fit into what hube is trying to do there?.west makes a move and everyone thinks its the greatest thing in the world but besides trading for bryant,which was actually orchestrated by kobe's agent and addidas,i'm not sure what jerrys' claim to fame is.he sure was a great player though.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

West should've stayed retired. His legend as a GM is going to fade quickly at the rate he's going now. I love Gooden and think he has a chance to be a great player, but if you already have a guy playing that position, what's the point. It was a very talented draft. And now, this trade just seems like an awful deal for Memphis and a terrific deal for Orlando. Oh well, maybe he knows something we don't.


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## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

*I'm the only one.*

Trading Gooden isn't West admitting he made a mistake. You could look at it that way, but I certainly don't. Here's why.

West has always wanted Miller, and with good reason. He's a very good outside shooter, and the Grizzlies are missing this. Good outside shooting is one of their most lacking areas. Getting Miller shores this up. However, to get him, the Magic held him hostage. They were never going to get Gasol, so that left it to Gooden and Swift. Clearly, if you were going to be taking on one of those guys, you'd want the more polished Gooden. So, to West, it came down to which was more important, having 3 powerforwards (1 good, 1 average and 1 poor) or having 2 pf's (1 good, 1 poor) as well as an outside shooting threat. It's no admission of a mistake. It's all done to improve the team.

If I recall correctly, at the time of the draft, the Griz were dying for Dunleavey, couldn't get him, then they worked out both Wagner and Gooden and ultimately they chose Gooden. I still don't think it was a ridiculous pick, as he will turn out to be good. It's possible they thought they could move Gasol over to the 3 spot, and would just get rid of Swift. It's all speculation. But really, all I'm saying is that the Griz haven't given up on Gooden or admited it was a mistake, it's just that they needed Miller more.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: I'm the only one.*



> Originally posted by <b>Springsteen</b>!
> West has always wanted Miller, and with good reason. He's a very good outside shooter, and the Grizzlies are missing this. Good outside shooting is one of their most lacking areas. Getting Miller shores this up. However, to get him, the Magic held him hostage. They were never going to get Gasol, so that left it to Gooden and Swift. Clearly, if you were going to be taking on one of those guys, you'd want the more polished Gooden. So, to West, it came down to which was more important, having 3 powerforwards (1 good, 1 average and 1 poor) or having 2 pf's (1 good, 1 poor) as well as an outside shooting threat. It's no admission of a mistake. It's all done to improve the team.


I think this is all part of the problem. For whatever reason, West obsessed over Dunleavy's game and since he could not get Dunleavy, Miller became the next best thing. For the sake of the trade, if Gooden ever pans out into the player West thought he would be, it would be West trading a player he predicted to be Rookie of the Year (at the season's beginning) to get a sharp shooter that somewhat reminded him of Dunleavy. Gordan was a streak shooter but was fairly sharp when on and Battier was not a bad shooter either. Add Person into the mix and the Grizzlies already had the potential to stroke the long ball. Of course, Miller makes the long distance shooting better. But let's see... the log jam at power forward is cleared but now a log jam around the SG/SF rotation will now arise.



> If I recall correctly, at the time of the draft, the Griz were dying for Dunleavey, couldn't get him, then they worked out both Wagner and Gooden and ultimately they chose Gooden. I still don't think it was a ridiculous pick, as he will turn out to be good. It's possible they thought they could move Gasol over to the 3 spot, and would just get rid of Swift. It's all speculation. But really, all I'm saying is that the Griz haven't given up on Gooden or admited it was a mistake, it's just that they needed Miller more.


I don't think the Grizzlies ever thought Gasol would be a 3. If anything, the original idea was to turn Gasol into a 5 and have Gooden start at the 4 (or perhaps 3 but this SF experiment failed). But if the Grizzlies gave away a PF for a SF capable of swinging down to SG, then in hindsight which is 20/20, the Grizzlies would have done better simply drafting a SF/SG from the draft. West's whole philosophy was "to take the best talent available" regardless of the position. Now West makes a trade to help improve a weakness on the squad. To me, this trade shows his initial idea of simply stacking talented players onto one team failed and now he is trying to meet specific needs. In my book, you go for the specific needs and address that first.


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## carayip (Jan 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> West should've stayed retired. His legend as a GM is going to fade quickly at the rate he's going now. I love Gooden and think he has a chance to be a great player, but if you already have a guy playing that position, what's the point. It was a very talented draft. And now, this trade just seems like an awful deal for Memphis and a terrific deal for Orlando. Oh well, maybe he knows something we don't.


I heard that West didn't have much time to do the scouting and workouts for this draft hence he just picked up the most "NBA ready" player. Give him another spring and see if he can work some drafting magic again. Plus his reputation when as the Lakers GM was always great as drafting but average at trading. Nothing has changed.


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## TheMatrix31 (May 28, 2002)

Everyone thought stoudemire was gonna be like that leon kid..Hands down he was the best player in the draft.


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## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: Re: I'm the only one.*



> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> West thought he would be, it would be West trading a player he predicted to be Rookie of the Year (at the season's beginning)


I really think that if this wasn't the year of Yao, you could make a very strong case for Gooden as ROY. He's putting up quite robust numbers, getting lots of points and boards. His numbers are near identical to Amare, possibly they can even be considered better. Not to hate on Amare, 'cause I think he is a good talent, but Gooden didn't get a lot of press playing in Memphis, and you hear a lot about Amare because he's the best first year high school player in recent years. I really don't think West was too off predicting him as a ROY candidate.

I liked your post.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Drafting him was not wrong because look at what they got for him! They got Mike Miller, and a 1st round pick along with a 2nd round pick and Ryan Humphrey. Sure I believe Orlando got the better end of the trade. But drafting talent is always a must, because if they don't fit you can always trade them away. And that is what they did with Gooden.


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## Hitman (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheMatrix31</b>!
> Everyone thought stoudemire was gonna be like that leon kid..Hands down he was the best player in the draft.


Ummm...have you heard about the Chinese guy?

Hitman


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## Potatoe (Jun 17, 2002)

This move really creates an interesting debate....

Is it ever a good idea to sacrifice talent to make your team better?

Isn't that essentially what the Grizzlies have done here?

Clearly Gooden is a more talented player than Miller, but at the same time the Grizzlies are a better team both short term and long term with Mike Miller.

Drew Gooden could be a very good starting power forward in this league, but he will never be as good of a player as Pau Gasol and therefore he was never going to start for the Grizz.

Worse yet Drew is a horrible bench player. You see Drew fancies himself as a star player and if he doesn't get a lot of playing time he's simply going to go out there and "Jack shots" which is what he has been doing since the season began.

He wasn't helping the Grizz in fact many nights he was hurting them because he did not lay with in the team concept on offense, and he just isn't a good player (especially at the 3) on defense.

What he was in a Grizzly uniform was a selfish, redundant player who was likely growing less and less patient with his current situation. 

He wasn't helping, and I'm just not sure where or when he would begin to help.

The question should not be "Should the Grizz have traded Drew Gooden" but rather "Did the Grizzlies get enough for him".

I believe that by this time next year Drew Will be averaging 17 and 8 for the Magic, and despite the fact that he might never be a good defender and he has demonstrated his "selfishness" early in his career, most teams in the league would take a 17 and 8 power forward, over a 16, 5 and 3 swing player.

As far as I'm concerned the rest of the deal is a wash and anyone who thinks Gordon G, is "almost as good as Miller" needs to watch a few more Grizz games.

So there you have it,,,,

West has given more talent than he received and has probably damaged his reputation in the process, but he HAS improved his team by a fair margin.

And he's created an interesting debate for the fans of this league.


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## TheMatrix31 (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hitman</b>!
> 
> 
> Ummm...have you heard about the Chinese guy?
> ...


yea i've heard of a big 7'4 boxed head chinese guys...but what about em ? Amare still the best player in the 2002 draft class


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> This move really creates an interesting debate....
> 
> Is it ever a good idea to sacrifice talent to make your team better?
> ...


You pretty much hit it on the head. Most non-Grizzly fans have just seen higlights of Drew or his early stats, but Drew was a gun. He is not a team concept player. Look for his minutes to increase in Orlando but his play is going to be erratic on a team in which he does not have the green light every time down(he gave himself the green light in Memphis).

Also Gordan play was about equal to what Rodney Buford did for the Grizz last season when every SG we had was hurt. He is nothing special. If he is starting for Orlando, Orlando is headed for the lottery.

What amazes me is that Orlando got two bench players off a horrible team, is going to insert them into the starting lineup and most people think that is a good thing.:no:


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## FatDaddy (Nov 13, 2002)

Draft gooden is no. Trade is yes. He is not a team player.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> You pretty much hit it on the head. Most non-Grizzly fans have just seen higlights of Drew or his early stats, but Drew was a gun. He is not a team concept player. Look for his minutes to increase in Orlando but his play is going to be erratic on a team in which he does not have the green light every time down(he gave himself the green light in Memphis).
> ...


Um, call Drew and Gordan bench players if you want, but everybody knows that they have potential. You obviously haven't watch the magic play. They desperately need a big man, and Drew is exactly that.

Gordan may not be special, but he is a decent player, and an excellent shooter. Remember that these 2 players are still rookies, so expect major improvement from them for years to come. Gordan should start simply because Orlando is that bad. The only player in Orlando who can actually play is T-Mac, so believe me, Gordan would easily be third option.

This trade is definitely a good thing for orlando.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> 
> 
> Um, call Drew and Gordan bench players if you want, but everybody knows that they have potential. You obviously haven't watch the magic play. They desperately need a big man, and Drew is exactly that.
> ...


I can see how Magic fans would like this trade. I am just trying to tell you guys you did not get the steal you think you did. Drew is not a 'power' forward or shot blocker. Gordan is not a 'shooter'. And neither can defend. You would have been better off with Swift.

It's all about perception. Swift is labled a diappointment but he put up better numbers then Drew last season in similar minutes.


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## FatDaddy (Nov 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> I can see how Magic fans would like this trade. I am just trying to tell you guys you did not get the steal you think you did. Drew is not a 'power' forward or shot blocker. Gordan is not a 'shooter'. And neither can defend. You would have been better off with Swift.
> ...


great post. I agree with you.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> I can see how Magic fans would like this trade. I am just trying to tell you guys you did not get the steal you think you did. Drew is not a 'power' forward or shot blocker. Gordan is not a 'shooter'. And neither can defend. You would have been better off with Swift.
> ...


Well, considering we only had to give up Mike Miller, who was only a good player but by no means a star, getting Gooden and Giricek is well worth it. I agree Swift would be a good fit too, but then Gooden is more polished and has better work ethic... either would fit in Magic just fine.

Gooden is an upgrade over Pat Garrity, and that's good enough for Magic. And Giricek's shooting is above average.

I still think it's a steal. The duo played amazingly tonight. Sure Mike played well too, but not as good as the duo. 37pts vs 23! And Magic also got rid of a scrub(humphrey) who was taking up the roster spot.


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## Genjuro (Jul 17, 2002)

I think West idea of drafting the most talented player available and then trade him for fill the needs of the team is OK.

But if you draft a PF and you already have another PF, Gasol, who is going to start over your drafted guy, you have a problem. Because the stock of your drafted guy is going to drop playing out of possition or simply warming the bench. And you are going to get less out of trading him.

In the end, the Grizzlies gave up more talent than the Magic. That's for sure.

Sure the Grizzlies are probably a best team now with Miller, but maybe they could have landed something better than Miller (who is a very good player, anyway).

Orlando got a great deal. I have seen a lot of Grizzlies games this season (and a cuople of Kansas last season), and I'm sure Gooden is a great player, better than Mike Miller. Giricek is another very good player (by the way, I don't think he is that bad defender). You have to take in account that he is a rookie. Sure both of them are black holes right now, but they will mature.

In few words, Orlando got the better end of the deal by far, and I wonder if West could not have done better, although both teams got better in the short run.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheMatrix31</b>!
> yea i've heard of a big 7'4 boxed head chinese guys...but what about em ? Amare still the best player in the 2002 draft class


Are you talking about this year or in the long run? Anyway, I don't think it matters because I don't think he's the best out of this class in either. Right now he's second behind Ming, in years to come, I wouldn't be surprised to see a handful of guys pass him up.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

amare's problem is impact. He doesn't have impact.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*West screwed up*

Let's face it. 

Mike Miller and a future Sac 1st round could not have gotten close to the #4 pick in the draft last summer. And it's not like Miller is showing more this year.

So the Griz lost value by selecting Gooden. 

This does not mean that the trade was stupid. At some point, you can't keep trying to put a square peg in a round hole.


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## Dabears (Jan 24, 2003)

The Griz made a bad decision with the draft. They should have taken Wagner for a couple of good reasons. 

1)They were drawing more fans to the university games that Wagner played in than they were to Grizzley games. The people in Memphis loved Wagner. 

2) They needed a shooting guard. Dickerson played well when he wasn't injured, but he is never going to be an impact player.

3) The Griz spent their last two top 5 draft picks on young athletic PFs, and they have Wright who is between a PF and a C

It seemed like the Griz wanted depth up front, but forgot that there are four other positions which aren't PF. 

Then the Griz could hve put together a deal for Miller with Swift and Girichek. There line up would be:

PG: Williams/Knight
SG: Wagner/Dickerson
SF: Battier/Miller
PF: Gasol/Humphreys
C: Wright/Archibald

They would definatley be thin upfront, but it's better than having Jason Williams as the only guy who touches the ball above the 3-point line.


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## FatDaddy (Nov 13, 2002)

how about trade Gooden to Denver for next year's first round pick.


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## RiSInG (Dec 15, 2002)

Draft Gooden was a immpresive error.I don't understrand why having a future all star in the team (and a great player right now) like Pau Gasol,Jerry West drafted Gooden.


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## Dabears (Jan 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>FatDaddy</b>!
> how about trade Gooden to Denver for next year's first round pick.


Do you mean the 2003 pick, or 2004 pick? Denver would never give up a shot at Carmelo or Lebron for Gooden. They already have Nene, White and Skits, who can all play 4.


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## carayip (Jan 15, 2003)

They drafted the most "NBA ready" guy. And looking into it, apart from Amare, who's better than Gooden now? Can't say they made a mistake.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RiSInG</b>!
> Draft Gooden was a immpresive error.I don't understrand why having a future all star in the team (and a great player right now) like Pau Gasol,Jerry West drafted Gooden.


Griz need two PFs.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dabears</b>!
> The Griz made a bad decision with the draft. They should have taken Wagner for a couple of good reasons.
> 
> 1)They were drawing more fans to the university games that Wagner played in than they were to Grizzley games. The people in Memphis loved Wagner.
> ...


Your argument lost any chance at credibility the minute you suggested having a backcourt of JWill and Wagner.:no: :no: :no:


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>carayip</b>!
> They drafted the most "NBA ready" guy. And looking into it, apart from Amare, who's better than Gooden now? Can't say they made a mistake.


They don't have Gooden anymore. They turned the #4 pick in the draft into Mike Miller. That's a mistake. The only question is whether the initial pick or the subsequent trade was the error. 

I go with the latter, the pick, since West should have learned from Krause that adding PF after PF is no way to build a team.


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## Dabears (Jan 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> Your argument lost any chance at credibility the minute you suggested having a backcourt of JWill and Wagner.:no: :no: :no:


JWill is on the team. I don't like him either, but he's their point guard and that's not gonna change. Besides, JWill and Wagner are better than JWill and Battier. I concede that the ball would be turned over a ton, but Drafting a SG was what they should have done, and Wagner was the best one available.

They might have taken Butler instead, even thought he's a 3


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## FatDaddy (Nov 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> They don't have Gooden anymore. They turned the #4 pick in the draft into Mike Miller. That's a mistake. The only question is whether the initial pick or the subsequent trade was the error.
> ...


what do you mean? Jerry West is not best GM this season?? The draft is not the best for the season???


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## FatDaddy (Nov 13, 2002)

*Re: West screwed up*



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> Let's face it.
> 
> Mike Miller and a future Sac 1st round could not have gotten close to the #4 pick in the draft last summer. And it's not like Miller is showing more this year.
> ...


Griz spent too much money. Why did West trade the overpaid players?


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