# Sweetney has a better back to the basket game than Curry



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

After watching some footage of Sweetney from last year, I've come to the conclusion that he is much better in the post with the ball in his hands than Curry is. Sweetney has a wide array of moves and amazing footwork, along with the ridiculous touch. He just knows how to get a good shot and put the ball in the hoop. A lot like Kevin McHale in that way (extremely poor mans McHale I know) Plus he is a lot better at reading the defense than Curry is, which will pay off over 4 quarters, because even though Curry could draw the defense, he couldn't read it well enough to make teams pay for doubling him. I think Sweetney can, which will make him more effective spread out the entire game. 

There are still those times where Curry seals his man, and all you have to do is throw it up near the rim and Curry would finish. Sweetney will never be able to replace Curry at that. I'm not sure anyone in the league can do that like Curry outside of your Shaq, Duncan and Amare. 

I was satisfied before with this trade, but I think Sweetney can replace Curry's offensive impact, which will ultimately make the team better because he isn't the defense and rebounding liability that Curry was. Plus, Sweetney was just a part of the package. We got good picks with it, and I have a lot of confidence in Paxson's ability to pick 'em.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Curry is a better defender that Sweetney. That's part of the reason he got more minutes on a better team.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> After watching some footage of Sweetney from last year, I've come to the conclusion that he is much better in the post with the ball in his hands than Curry is. Sweetney has a wide array of moves and amazing footwork, along with the ridiculous touch. He just knows how to get a good shot and put the ball in the hoop. A lot like Kevin McHale in that way (extremely poor mans McHale I know) Plus he is a lot better at reading the defense than Curry is, which will pay off over 4 quarters, because even though Curry could draw the defense, he couldn't read it well enough to make teams pay for doubling him. I think Sweetney can, which will make him more effective spread out the entire game.
> 
> There are still those times where Curry seals his man, and all you have to do is throw it up near the rim and Curry would finish. Sweetney will never be able to replace Curry at that. I'm not sure anyone in the league can do that like Curry outside of your Shaq, Duncan and Amare.
> 
> I was satisfied before with this trade, but I think Sweetney can replace Curry's offensive impact, which will ultimately make the team better because he isn't the defense and rebounding liability that Curry was. Plus, Sweetney was just a part of the package. We got good picks with it, and I have a lot of confidence in Paxson's ability to pick 'em.



Your kidding right?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> Your kidding right?


Not in any way, except for the defense part, Sweetney and Curry are both not that good, but Sweetney is a better rebounder, which makes him a better defender (eliminating 2nd chance points is defense).


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Not in any way, except for the defense part, Sweetney and Curry are both not that good, but Sweetney is a better rebounder, which makes him a better defender (eliminating 2nd chance points is defense).


That's twisted. Then I guess scoring more is a form of defense, too. Then Curry is a much, much better defender than Sweetney.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Not in any way, except for the defense part, Sweetney and Curry are both not that good, but Sweetney is a better rebounder, which makes him a better defender (eliminating 2nd chance points is defense).


Please tell me your kidding

Your telling me he has a better post game then Curry when Curry led the league in FG% as a 19 year old? Over Shaq and Yao? And then you take it a step further by bringing Kevin McHales name in it? Give me a break. If Sweetney were half the player Curry was he would have played a lot more on a terrible team. Curry is a better defender, gulp, a better offensive player and in better shape then Sweetney.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> Please tell me your kidding
> 
> Your telling me he has a better post game then Curry when Curry led the league in FG% as a 19 year old? Over Shaq and Yao? And then you take it a step further by bringing Kevin McHales name in it? Give me a break. If Sweetney were half the player Curry was he would have played a lot more on a terrible team. Curry is a better defender, gulp, a better offensive player and in better shape then Sweetney.


Thank you. Harringon played *twice* as many minutes as Sweetney 2 years ago when they were both Knicks. Michael Doleac player 1.5x as many minutes.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Like I said, the only thing Curry has on Sweetney is his ability to seal his man and catch anything in his area and finish easy buckets. He is really good at that, and it's the most valuable aspect of his game. 

Curry's back to the basket game is not very good. He shrivels up like George Costanza when he sees double teams, turns the ball over too much, and really doesn't have any post moves except for that little hook. 

Defense I'll call a draw, you're delusional if you think Curry is *better* defender. Curry was one of the 10 worst defenders in the league last season. 

Sweetney is a better rebounder.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Like I said, the only thing Curry has on Sweetney is his ability to seal his man and catch anything in his area and finish easy buckets. He is really good at that, and it's the most valuable aspect of his game.
> 
> Curry's back to the basket game is not very good. He shrivels up like George Costanza when he sees double teams, turns the ball over too much, and really doesn't have any post moves except for that little hook.
> 
> ...


Better defender? Wait til you see Sweetney defend. He cant move his feet and wont stay on the court cause he is constantly in foul trouble. Everything is a reach. Plus he is very small for his spot. 

If he had the Kevin McHale like post game, dont you think a team desperate for inside muscle would have played him? Frankly, he got most of his damage done late in the year when the Knicks were out of it and the other half was done in garbage time. 

Offensively, again, Curry led the league in FG% as a 19/20 year old. He gets you 16 ppg in less then 30 minutes a night. Curry is a far better offensive player then Sweetney. Curry has great hands, soft touch and the ability to finish at the rim. Sweetney only has nice hands. He gets his shot blocked a ton.


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## nanokooshball (Jan 22, 2005)

those reports saying that sweetney could be like elton brand kinda puzzled me cuz i didn't think they had teh same body

then i checked yahoo and they're BOTH 6'8 AND 270lbs... i didnt think elton was THAT heavy... 

SO do you guys think it's possible for sweetney to become like elton brand?


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

johnston797 said:


> That's twisted. Then I guess scoring more is a form of defense, too. Then Curry is a much, much better defender than Sweetney.


Nahh, it's not twisted. Defense is when the opposing team has possession of the ball. This scenario ends if either the opposing team attemps a shot and misses and your team rebounds the ball, the opposing team makes the shot, the opposing team turns over the ball, or the opposing team gets fouled and in the instance that they miss free throws, your team rebounds the ball. 

If you don't rebound the ball in the first and sometimes last scenario, then the opponent remains in control of the ball. And your defense has failed. 

Rebounding, like everything else in basketball, falls under either the umbrella of defense or offense. It's not some third aspect like alot of people seems to believe.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

nanokooshball said:


> those reports saying that sweetney could be like elton brand kinda puzzled me cuz i didn't think they had teh same body
> 
> then i checked yahoo and they're BOTH 6'8 AND 270lbs... i didnt think elton was THAT heavy...
> 
> SO do you guys think it's possible for sweetney to become like elton brand?


No. Not even close.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I've said my part. Now we'll see how the trade turns out.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

I agree to an extent with Sir Patchwork in that I believe Eddy's back to the basket post game is a bit overstated, and a great deal of his value on offense came from the fact that he is one of the very best finishers in the league. Skiles even sort of alluded to that. I don't think Eddy is that effective when you slow it down in the half court and dump the ball into him. He's best in the post when can get deep position and make one of his two pet moves quickly. If he doesn't get to his spot, or he is overplayed to his right, he seems to struggle a bit even one on one. He also doesn't handle double teams well, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that, because it took even Shaq and Duncan a few years in the league before the got to the point that they could could read double teams well.

What has dissapointed me with Eddy is that though he has become more refined with the couple moves he has, he really hasn't developed to any new moves in the past few years, or at least none that he has gained enough confidence in to use in game situations on any real basis.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Babble-On said:


> I agree to an extent with Sir Patchwork in that I believe Eddy's back to the basket post game is a bit overstated, and a great deal of his value on offense came from the fact that he is one of the very best finishers in the league. Skiles even sort of alluded to that. I don't think Eddy is that effective when you slow it down in the half court and dump the ball into him. He's best in the post when can get deep position and make one of his two pet moves quickly. If he doesn't get to his spot, or he is overplayed to his right, he seems to struggle a bit even one on one. He also doesn't handle double teams well, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that, because it took even Shaq and Duncan a few years in the league before the got to the point that they could could read double teams well.
> 
> What has dissapointed me with Eddy is that though he has become more refined with the couple moves he has, he really hasn't developed to any new moves in the past few years, or at least none that he has gained enough confidence in to use in game situations on any real basis.


Yep. Curry doesn't do well when he tries to rely on his post game. It's the spin backdoor where he can catch the lob, or the seal where Tyson throws it up from the free throw line, and things like that where he is great. Curry can go get anything, but with the ball in his hands trying to create, he isn't that good.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

The problem is that Sweetney wont get double teams. He cant finish at the rim with power and most of his game comes on garbage points. Plus his defense is soooooooooooooo bad that he cant stay on the floor for a long time. His defense is bad for 2 reasons. His stamina is just terrible, which means he doesnt move his feet and commits a ton of reach fouls. This comes from being in terrible shape. Not even Seargent Skiles could get a player like Sweetney in shape over one camp. It took Curry all summer to do it. Second Sweetney isnt very big or athletic for his spot. Sure, he has Brands reach and height but nowhere near Brands lift. He will need help guarding the big 4s on the block in the east. There is a reason the Knicks didnt go to him when they desperately needed inside help. Its because the guy just isnt that good.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

MongolianDeathCloud said:


> Nahh, it's not twisted. Defense is when the opposing team has possession of the ball. This scenario ends if either the opposing team attemps a shot and misses and your team rebounds the ball, the opposing team makes the shot, the opposing team turns over the ball, or the opposing team gets fouled and in the instance that they miss free throws, your team rebounds the ball.
> 
> If you don't rebound the ball in the first and sometimes last scenario, then the opponent remains in control of the ball. And your defense has failed.
> 
> Rebounding, like everything else in basketball, falls under either the umbrella of defense or offense. It's not some third aspect like alot of people seems to believe.


Sweetney is only marginally a better defensive rebounder. He really only stands out compared to Curry on offensive glass.

So giving Sweetney credit on D for being a good offensive rebounder seems, yes, twisted.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Sweetney is only marginally a better defensive rebounder. He really only stands out compared to Curry on offensive glass.
> 
> So giving Sweetney credit on D for being a good offensive rebounder seems, yes, twisted.


haha

Whats twisted is that no one actually has seen what a fouling machine this kid is. He cant stay on the floor long enough to be a factor cause technically his defense is atrocious, because he lacks size and athletic ability and cause he so far out of shape. People will take a look at him by game 45 and actually miss Curry.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> After watching some footage of Sweetney from last year, I've come to the conclusion that he is much better in the post with the ball in his hands than Curry is. Sweetney has a wide array of moves and amazing footwork, along with the ridiculous touch. He just knows how to get a good shot and put the ball in the hoop. A lot like Kevin McHale in that way (extremely poor mans McHale I know) Plus he is a lot better at reading the defense than Curry is, which will pay off over 4 quarters, because even though Curry could draw the defense, he couldn't read it well enough to make teams pay for doubling him. I think Sweetney can, which will make him more effective spread out the entire game.
> 
> There are still those times where Curry seals his man, and all you have to do is throw it up near the rim and Curry would finish. Sweetney will never be able to replace Curry at that. I'm not sure anyone in the league can do that like Curry outside of your Shaq, Duncan and Amare.
> 
> I was satisfied before with this trade, but I think Sweetney can replace Curry's offensive impact, which will ultimately make the team better because he isn't the defense and rebounding liability that Curry was. Plus, Sweetney was just a part of the package. We got good picks with it, and I have a lot of confidence in Paxson's ability to pick 'em.


I just saw that clip and now I am beginning to feel much, much better about this trade. I am with you. Sweetney has better post game than Curry. Depending on how TT turns out, Paxon quite possibly made the steal of this summer.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

lgtwins said:


> I just saw that clip and now I am beginning to feel much, much better about this trade. I am with you. Sweetney has better post game than Curry. Depending on how TT turns out, Paxon quite possibly made the steal of this summer.


With the pick, the trade is definitely in our favor. Curry is an average player, and we got some (also) average talent back in return, with a top 15 pick most likely.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> With the pick, the trade is definitely in our favor. Curry is an average player, and we got some (also) average talent back in return, with a top 15 pick most likely.



Average players lead the league in FG% over Shaq and Yao, as a 19 year old? Hmmmmmm. Maybe I ought to get myself an agent then


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

Isn't it possible that Sweetney would pull Orthella Harrington this season? OR Even TT to that?

Come on, seriously guys, how many of you thought Harrington had that much of game until he actually played for us?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

lgtwins said:


> Isn't it possible that Sweetney would pull Orthella Harrington this season? OR Even TT to that?
> 
> Come on, seriously guys, how many of you thought Harrington had that much of game until he actually played for us?



TT is far more likely to contribute then Sweetney. And TT might. But lets remember, as pleasant a surprise as Harrington was, he was the 4th big man and a guy who had almost no one pursue him this offseason.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

rlucas4257 said:


> TT is far more likely to contribute then Sweetney. And TT might. But lets remember, as pleasant a surprise as Harrington was, he was the 4th big man and a guy who had almost no one pursue him this offseason.


Can we all just hope that both TT and Sweetney pull Harrington this season instead of arguing over who will or who won't? I mean, we can start talking about it once season starts and after we actullay see them under Bulls system? I am rooting for both of them to pull it off.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

johnston797 said:


> Sweetney is only marginally a better defensive rebounder. He really only stands out compared to Curry on offensive glass.
> 
> So giving Sweetney credit on D for being a good offensive rebounder seems, yes, twisted.


Mmm, I beg to differ, he's a significantly better defensive rebounder too. He averages roughly greater than 2 more rebounds per 48 minutes. To put that in persepctive, that's about the difference in defensive rebounding per 48 minutes between Ben Wallace and Mehmet Okur. Ranking the players in this manner, and only including players that played at least half a season, Wallace is ranked 8th and Okur is 37th. That's not significant? It's the difference between Danny Fortson and Adrian Griffin. Note, Sweetney makes the list, at 73. Curry doesn't make the top 100 defensive rebounders per 48, in fact he's a whole rebound below the 100th best in the league. 

Here's the data I used: 
Top 100 Defensive Rebounders er 48 Minutes 2005, cutoff of 40 games played


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

lgtwins said:


> Can we all just hope that both TT and Sweetney pull Harrington this season instead of arguing over who will or who won't? I mean, we can start talking about it once season starts and after we actullay see them under Bulls system? I am rooting for both of them to pull it off.



Its being ridiculous that irks me. I appreciate being a fan but there is a fine line between being an intelligent fan and someone just spewing rhetoric. To saw some of the things about Sweetney that are being said are uneducated and foolish. And to build up expectations in a player, based on one clip, to the level of having "a poor mans Kevin McHale" are not fair to the fans, the player himself or the organization. Sweetney can be a viable role player, probably off the bench, similar to Harrington. But he is probably playing his contract out here before moving on. Tim Thomas is a great guy, who I happen to know, with great skill who hasnt put it altogether yet. But he will give it 100% and could be a sleeper. The number one pick helps out a ton as well. But to say we got fair value for a 22 year old center who averaged 16 a night and once led the league in FG% (assuming his heart is ok) is just dumb. And then to call him "average" just compounds the rhetoric. Not even Currys biggest detractors would make such an outlandish and dumb statement. Curry is no worse then 5th best center in basketball and probably better then that with Brown behind him. Is that average?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

MongolianDeathCloud said:


> Mmm, I beg to differ, he's a significantly better defensive rebounder too. He averages roughly greater than 2 more rebounds per 48 minutes.


For their career, it's about 1 defensive rebound per 40 minutes. Of course, neither player plays 40 minutes, let alone 48. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryed01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sweetmi01.html

And then on top of that, it's not apples to apples. They play on different teams.

Bulls out-rebounded their opponents last year. And Knicks got out-rebounded.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

rlucas4257 said:


> Its being ridiculous that irks me. I appreciate being a fan but there is a fine line between being an intelligent fan and someone just spewing rhetoric. To saw some of the things about Sweetney that are being said are uneducated and foolish. And to build up expectations in a player, based on one clip, to the level of having "a poor mans Kevin McHale" are not fair to the fans, the player himself or the organization. Sweetney can be a viable role player, probably off the bench, similar to Harrington. But he is probably playing his contract out here before moving on. Tim Thomas is a great guy, who I happen to know, with great skill who hasnt put it altogether yet. But he will give it 100% and could be a sleeper. The number one pick helps out a ton as well. But to say we got fair value for a 22 year old center who averaged 16 a night and once led the league in FG% (assuming his heart is ok) is just dumb. And then to call him "average" just compounds the rhetoric. Not even Currys biggest detractors would make such an outlandish and dumb statement. Curry is no worse then 5th best center in basketball and probably better then that with Brown behind him. Is that average?


Whatever. You are THE MAN! My God. What a comeback? All I am saying is let's wait for a while before pulling out doomsday card? You don't have to get nasty !!!


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

rlucas4257 said:


> haha
> 
> Whats twisted is that no one actually has seen what a fouling machine this kid is. He cant stay on the floor long enough to be a factor cause technically his defense is atrocious, because he lacks size and athletic ability and cause he so far out of shape. People will take a look at him by game 45 and actually miss Curry.



He does need to cut back on his fouls, but it's not that bad for a second year player. He basically averaged as many fouls per 48 as Othella. Less than half a foul per 48 minutes more than Krstic, Stromile, and Pollard. About .68 fouls per 48 more than Dalembert (7.13 fouls per 48 for Sweets and 6.48 for Sammy). He's definitely got room to improve in this respect, but he's not much worse than some other team's starters. He's not as ridiculous as Fortson or Jerome James, for example (10+ personal fouls per 48 minutes).

Top 100 PFs per 48, 2005, limit of 42 or more games played to qualify


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Sweetney's better than Curry? Well good trade by Paxson then. What I don't get is if Isiah had this awesome player, why did he throw draft picks in with the trade?  If anything the Bulls should have given him draft picks.

Eddy was an important part of a 50 win team. And you're telling me we're getting something better than that in Sweetney!! AND Tim Thomas' expiring contract. AND draft picks!!

****ing sweet.

Thank god Eddy had the heart problems otherwise we would have never been able to have his value fall far enough to where we could land a superior player such as Sweetney.

Just think, if Eddy had broken his kneck in an awful heroine accident, we might have been able to trade him for KG!!!

For real, you're out of your goddamn mind. It's really saddening to see the impact this trade has had on normally sane minds. The denial is so strong that we are making Michael Sweetney into something of a savior.

My question is, if Eddy was so unimportant, and so decidedly average, then who gives a **** about what we got back for him? Theoretically we've already covered our *** by signing Malik Allen.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Curry was one of the 10 worst defenders in the league last season.


http://www.dougstats.com/04-05DefensiveTendex.html

Tendrex has him as the 11th best defender as a Center last year. But why stop the hate?


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> http://www.dougstats.com/04-05DefensiveTendex.html
> 
> Tendrex has him as the 11th best defender as a Center last year. But why stop the hate?


 And Dan Rosenbaum has him ranked 38 out of 43. http://82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm 

Pick a source.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> And Dan Rosenbaum has him ranked 38 out of 43. http://82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm
> 
> Pick a source.


Well, Dan's system calls Gordon a much better defender than Hinrich. So I will defer to Sir Patchwork if he believes that is of much value.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> And Dan Rosenbaum has him ranked 38 out of 43. http://82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm
> 
> Pick a source.


 I find it just as strange that Tendrex would rank Curry as the 11th best defensive center in the league. Or Lebron James the best defensive small forward in the league. Or Tony Parker the best defensive point guard in the league.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> I find it just as strange that Tendrex would rank Curry as the 11th best defensive center in the league. Or Lebron James the best defensive small forward in the league. Or Tony Parker the best defensive point guard in the league.


At least, Tendrex does supply their complete list with a stated algortithm. (No knock on Dan. He is understandable trying to get paid for his work.) And, IMHO, Gordon as the 3rd best defensive guard last year is a more aggregious error than the ones you state.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

johnston797 said:


> For their career, it's about 1 defensive rebound per 40 minutes. Of course, neither player plays 40 minutes, let alone 48.
> 
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryed01.html
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sweetmi01.html
> ...


It's still significant. Let me approach this a different way. If Curry rebounded at the same rate Sweetney did last season, he would have 1.2 more boards per game in his 28 minutes played. On average, the Bulls opponents scored 1.03 points per possession, so this 1.2 boards would roughly equal 0.6 points differential average per game. 

The difference between the Bulls and Cavaliers, average point differential per game? 0.3 points. Chicago and Boston? 0.2 points. Chicago and Indiana. 0.3 points.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MongolianDeathCloud said:


> It's still significant. Let me approach this a different way. If Curry rebounded at the same rate Sweetney did last season, he would have 1.2 more boards per game in his 28 minutes played. On average, the Bulls opponents scored 1.03 points per possession, so this 1.2 boards would roughly equal 0.6 points differential average per game.
> 
> The difference between the Bulls and Cavaliers, average point differential per game? 0.3 points. Chicago and Boston? 0.2 points. Chicago and Indiana. 0.3 points.



No but what he said was that they play for diffrent teams. There were more rebounds to be had playing for the knicks. Less rebounders on that team. For the Bulls everyone rebounds really well. Eddy's job was just to box out his man and let the Bulls guards come in and rebound. And he did that pretty well when you look at how well the Bulls rebounded as a team.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> No but what he said was that they play for diffrent teams. There were more rebounds to be had playing for the knicks. Less rebounders on that team. For the Bulls everyone rebounds really well. Eddy's job was just to box out his man and let the Bulls guards come in and rebound. And he did that pretty well when you look at how well the Bulls rebounded as a team.



Thats kind of the way I see it. While not looking at the stats, I dont believe the Bulls were a bad rebounding team. Everyone is saying we are getting a great rebounder back in Sweetney but so what? We already have a good rebounding team without him and is he going to outboard Chandler? What we need is a solid post presence who can score around the bucket. We gave that away. Its my suspicion that Sweetney can not fill those shoes for the Bulls and the Bulls offense will be irrepearably damaged by the loss of Curry, UNLESS, Deng develops into a post option on offense. Luol just might do it.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> No but what he said was that they play for diffrent teams. There were more rebounds to be had playing for the knicks. Less rebounders on that team. For the Bulls everyone rebounds really well. Eddy's job was just to box out his man and let the Bulls guards come in and rebound. And he did that pretty well when you look at how well the Bulls rebounded as a team.


Last season, the Bulls opponents had 3785 missed FGs. The Knicks' opponents had 3454 missed FGs. So more missed shots to rebound for the Bulls, which makes sense considering how awesome they were at limiting opponents shooting percentages. 

The Bulls rebounded 68.5% of their opponents misses. The Knicks rebounded 69.3 % of their opponent's misses. 

As for boxing out, I'll have to take your word for it. In the games I watched, it didn't appear as if Eddy was doing anything special in this regard relative to other centers out there who boxed out and grabbed a significant amount of rebounds. But perhaps I did not get to see enough of Curry, and peception can differ from one to another as well.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> No but what he said was that they play for diffrent teams. There were more rebounds to be had playing for the knicks. Less rebounders on that team.


I disagree that there are "more rebounds to be had playing for the Knicks". The Bulls were a worse offensive team (more missed shots = more opportunities for offensive rebounds) and a better defensive team (more missed shots forced = more opportunities for defensive rebounds). 



> For the Bulls everyone rebounds really well. Eddy's job was just to box out his man and let the Bulls guards come in and rebound. And he did that pretty well when you look at how well the Bulls rebounded as a team.


It's more like, on the Bulls, everyone rebounds really well except Eddy. He was forced into that job, I would say. He was such an inefficient rebounder that he chose to box out his man and let other players get it. Because other players on the floor were much quicker and faster getting to the ball than he was. 

On the Knicks he'll probably get more rebounds, but he'll probably miss a lot of rebounds, too. Unless Larry Brown realizes this, and has Eddy do the same 'job' in NY.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

MongolianDeathCloud said:


> Last season, the Bulls opponents had 3785 missed FGs. The Knicks' opponents had 3454 missed FGs. So more missed shots to rebound for the Bulls, which makes sense considering how awesome they were at limiting opponents shooting percentages.
> 
> The Bulls rebounded 68.5% of their opponents misses. The Knicks rebounded 69.3 % of their opponent's misses.


Great point. Said it before me. There were many more opportunities for rebounds on Chicago, and New York was a better overall rebounding team. I think that directly contradicts futuristxen's post.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> But to say we got fair value for a 22 year old center who averaged 16 a night and once led the league in FG% (assuming his heart is ok) is just dumb.


To speak in such absolutes about the trade isn't particularly prudent, considering we are yet to see what the draft picks will amount to, and it remains to be seen how much Eddy will progress with his game. As it stands right now, Eddy is a useful player, but more than replaceable, if not easily replicated.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Babble-On said:


> To speak in such absolutes about the trade isn't particularly prudent, considering we are yet to see what the draft picks will amount to, and it remains to be seen how much Eddy will progress with his game. As it stands right now, Eddy is a useful player, but more than replaceable, if not easily replicated.


 I wouldn't go that far.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Babble-On said:


> To speak in such absolutes about the trade isn't particularly prudent, considering we are yet to see what the draft picks will amount to, and it remains to be seen how much Eddy will progress with his game. As it stands right now, Eddy is a useful player, but more than replaceable, if not easily replicated.



What???????

WTF are you talking about? Replacable and replicated?

How many 22 year old centers are out there who average 16ppg and shoot in the mid 50s? How many centers out there have led the league in FG%? One maybe (Yao)

Sure the draft picks could be great. But itll have to be the draft picks that even up this deal. As of right now, it isnt fair value. And Im 99% certain that the Bulls management would even agree with that.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MongolianDeathCloud said:


> Last season, the Bulls opponents had 3785 missed FGs. The Knicks' opponents had 3454 missed FGs. So more missed shots to rebound for the Bulls, which makes sense considering how awesome they were at limiting opponents shooting percentages.
> 
> The Bulls rebounded 68.5% of their opponents misses. The Knicks rebounded 69.3 % of their opponent's misses.
> 
> As for boxing out, I'll have to take your word for it. In the games I watched, it didn't appear as if Eddy was doing anything special in this regard relative to other centers out there who boxed out and grabbed a significant amount of rebounds. But perhaps I did not get to see enough of Curry, and peception can differ from one to another as well.


You're not looking at the right numbers. What you are looking for is the percentage of available rebounds that Eddy Curry had available for himself when he was in the game. Meaning how many times did his inability to grab a rebound result in the opponent getting an offensive rebound.

Because what I'm saying is that there are more guys playing with Eddy who rebound exceptionally well, than who play with Michael Sweetney. So Eddy can box out his man, and someone else on the Bulls got the rebound.

On the Bulls Eddy's poor rebounding skills were really not a problem for us last year. When we went into this offseason I did not consider it a need that needed to be addressed. I didn't say, "gee I hope Paxson gets us some rebounding help, because boy do we suck at that".


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> You're not looking at the right numbers. What you are looking for is the percentage of available rebounds that Eddy Curry had available for himself when he was in the game. Meaning how many times did his inability to grab a rebound result in the opponent getting an offensive rebound.
> 
> Because what I'm saying is that there are more guys playing with Eddy who rebound exceptionally well, than who play with Michael Sweetney. So Eddy can box out his man, and someone else on the Bulls got the rebound.
> 
> On the Bulls Eddy's poor rebounding skills were really not a problem for us last year. When we went into this offseason I did not consider it a need that needed to be addressed. I didn't say, "gee I hope Paxson gets us some rebounding help, because boy do we suck at that".



You have been quality foa long time futuristxen and this only shows why. Good F'in post :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

rwj333 said:


> I disagree that there are "more rebounds to be had playing for the Knicks". The Bulls were a worse offensive team (more missed shots = more opportunities for offensive rebounds) and a better defensive team (more missed shots forced = more opportunities for defensive rebounds).


The point was contextual to Eddy's place on the team vs. Sweetney's. Sweetney was expected to rebound when he was on the floor. For the Bulls Eddy was probably the fifth most important rebounder for the Bulls whenever he was on the floor. The numbers would on the surface seem to contradict my point, except that they aren't the right numbers.



> It's more like, on the Bulls, everyone rebounds really well except Eddy. He was forced into that job, I would say. He was such an inefficient rebounder that he chose to box out his man and let other players get it. Because other players on the floor were much quicker and faster getting to the ball than he was.
> 
> On the Knicks he'll probably get more rebounds, but he'll probably miss a lot of rebounds, too. Unless Larry Brown realizes this, and has Eddy do the same 'job' in NY.


So it seems we agree. Rebounding wasn't a problem for the Bulls, so who cares if Sweetney is a better rebounder or not? It won't have much of an effect on our bottom line. He'll just be taking rebounds away from Chandler and others. I don't think his rebounding will make us a better team overall. What we need is a low post scorer to run our offense out of. And only the delusional think Sweetney can handle that role next year. Sweetney has no history of being the primary inside scorer for a playoff team against first team defenses.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> The point was contextual to Eddy's place on the team vs. Sweetney's. Sweetney was expected to rebound when he was on the floor. For the Bulls Eddy was probably the fifth most important rebounder for the Bulls whenever he was on the floor. The numbers would on the surface seem to contradict my point, except that they aren't the right numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> So it seems we agree. Rebounding wasn't a problem for the Bulls, so who cares if Sweetney is a better rebounder or not? It won't have much of an effect on our bottom line. He'll just be taking rebounds away from Chandler and others. I don't think his rebounding will make us a better team overall. What we need is a low post scorer to run our offense out of. And only the delusional think Sweetney can handle that role next year. Sweetney has no history of being the primary inside scorer for a playoff team against first team defenses.



Man your on a roll. preach on brother


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Because what I'm saying is that there are more guys playing with Eddy who rebound exceptionally well, than who play with Michael Sweetney.


But.. the Knicks rebounded a higher percentage of their opponent's misses last season than the Bulls did? I don't follow your logic. If Sweets had much worse rebounders surrounding him than Eddy, than he must have picked up some of that slack since the Knicks rebounded more of their opponent's misses than the Bulls. It's a zero-sum problem, there aren't rebounds that disappear out into the ether.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

Btw, you keep mentioning that I'm looking at the wrong numbers. For the sake of this argument, I would like to see some of the "right" ones. Because it seems like I've offered plenty of objective evidence to back up my point, and have been countered with subjective conjecture (and a little bit of Rlucas cheerleading, no offense bud lol!). 

I'm enjoying the discussion, but at this point I would like to see some objective numbers because I feel we are spinning off into "spin-land"..


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> The point was contextual to Eddy's place on the team vs. Sweetney's. Sweetney was expected to rebound when he was on the floor. For the Bulls Eddy was probably the fifth most important rebounder for the Bulls whenever he was on the floor. The numbers would on the surface seem to contradict my point, except that they aren't the right numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> So it seems we agree. Rebounding wasn't a problem for the Bulls, so who cares if Sweetney is a better rebounder or not? It won't have much of an effect on our bottom line. He'll just be taking rebounds away from Chandler and others. I don't think his rebounding will make us a better team overall. What we need is a low post scorer to run our offense out of. And only the delusional think Sweetney can handle that role next year. Sweetney has no history of being the primary inside scorer for a playoff team against first team defenses.


Well, perhaps we'll play better fast break defense, or offense, because our guards won't have to stick around and rebound the ball. Perhaps we'll become an even better defensive team because we give our opponents even less opportunities. I don't think having a player play the role of 'box-out man' is efficient at all. Those are just two possibilities, and I do think better rebounding will makes us a better team, though I agree it might not help us in a huge way.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

MongolianDeathCloud said:


> Btw, you keep mentioning that I'm looking at the wrong numbers. For the sake of this argument, I would like to see some of the "right" ones. Because it seems like I've offered plenty of objective evidence to back up my point, and have been countered with subjective conjecture (and a little bit of Rlucas cheerleading, no offense bud lol!).
> 
> I'm enjoying the discussion, but at this point I would like to see some objective numbers because I feel we are spinning off into "spin-land"..


No offense taken MDC

What Futs is saying is that rebounding isnt the issue with the club. It was a strength of ours last year and would be this year with or without Eddy Curry. But what has happened is that we traded away what Curry brought to the table without acquiring some semblance of that or without having an established ready made replacement. We can talk about rebounding and defense til we are blue in the face, but if you dont score, you dont win. And I doubt Sweetney can replace that interior scoring and our little guards are not going to have guys sagging off of them preventing the entry pass into the post either.


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## windy_bull (Sep 28, 2005)

as I am from germany I have a hard time when I try to cover the nba. normally I order winning games at www.pontel.com and I am browsing the basketball boards to collect my information. I have been doing this for a couple of years now but this is my first post and it is directed to rlucas ...

I have always loved the potential of eddy curry ... just as I loved the potential of jamal crawford or the potential of jay williams or the potential of marcus fizer ....... the thing I had to realize was that all that potential ( or is upside the better word ? ) lead to nothing but losses .... my love for those "flashy players" has died during this time ....

when I am looking now at the players that pax has brought in during the last 2 years there is one thing that they all have in common ... they are not " flashy " at all - with the exception of ben gordon :clap: 
... but they know how to play this game - 

and what happened ? we turned into winners - just by playing basketball " the right way " .... 

all I have seen from sweetney so far has been the mixtape that has been circulating since this trade and I know that it might be possible to let jared reiner look like a true baller by just adding his few highlights to each other ... but looking at sweetney a few things are obvious :

- he is damn quick 
- he has great hands 
- he uses his wide body perfectly 
- and he has a great "rodmanesque" nose for the rebound ( he starts moving towards the ball in the moment it leaves the hand of the guy who tries to score )

bottomline is: he is a much better basketball player than eddy will ever be .... the only thing that lacks are a few inches ( but hey, chandler has those inches in abundance ... and wasn't barkley about 6.4 ? .... ) 

still ... I am not sure whether I would have traded him straight up for eddy ... but together with all the other pieces we have received ( TT + draft picks ) we have definately won this trade ...

and back to the topic - sweetney has a better back to the basket game as eddy ... in this highlight film I have seen more different moves than from eddy in the last 4 years ....

as english is not my mother language I can only hope that you are able to understand what I was trying to say .... :biggrin:


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> No offense taken MDC
> 
> What Futs is saying is that rebounding isnt the issue with the club. It was a strength of ours last year and would be this year with or without Eddy Curry. But what has happened is that we traded away what Curry brought to the table without acquiring some semblance of that or without having an established ready made replacement. _We can talk about rebounding and defense til we are blue in the face, but if you dont score, you dont win. _ And I doubt Sweetney can replace that interior scoring and our little guards are not going to have guys sagging off of them preventing the entry pass into the post either.


That's a very good point, and I definitely agree, but I'm not sure Eddy is the game-changing offensive force that would lead us to a championship. Especially when you consider his liabilities on defense/rebounding. I also think that Sweetney (and Songaila) are decent replacements for the short term. Patchwork even seems confident that Sweetney is just as good as Eddy, offensively. He can't do a some of the things Eddy can do, but he can rebound better and overall make the Bulls a better team.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

windy_bull said:


> as I am from germany I have a hard time when I try to cover the nba. normally I order winning games at www.pontel.com and I am browsing the basketball boards to collect my information. I have been doing this for a couple of years now but this is my first post and it is directed to rlucas ...
> 
> I have always loved the potential of eddy curry ... just as I loved the potential of jamal crawford or the potential of jay williams or the potential of marcus fizer ....... the thing I had to realize was that all that potential ( or is upside the better word ? ) lead to nothing but losses .... my love for those "flashy players" has died during this time ....
> 
> ...


 I understand what you said. Thanks for posting.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

windy_bull said:


> as I am from germany I have a hard time when I try to cover the nba. normally I order winning games at www.pontel.com and I am browsing the basketball boards to collect my information. I have been doing this for a couple of years now but this is my first post and it is directed to rlucas ...
> 
> I have always loved the potential of eddy curry ... just as I loved the potential of jamal crawford or the potential of jay williams or the potential of marcus fizer ....... the thing I had to realize was that all that potential ( or is upside the better word ? ) lead to nothing but losses .... my love for those "flashy players" has died during this time ....
> 
> ...



excellent post and job well done with your english. But again, I ask the question, if Sweetney were so good, why couldnt he get real PT with the knicks? Are the knicks in the business of losing? Was Lenny Wilkins trying to get fired? What you saw was Sweetney lighting up some bench players in garbage time. He isnt that quick and he has terrible conditioning. And he isnt athletic. Doing things the right way is fine and good but eventually you need that world beater. Pax has brought in 2 guys who have the potential to be that player, Deng and Gordon. But lets not get ahead of ourselves, to say the Bulls "won" this trade is not even something Pax would say I am afraid.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> That's a very good point, and I definitely agree, but I'm not sure Eddy is the game-changing offensive force that would lead us to a championship. Especially when you consider his liabilities on defense/rebounding. I also think that Sweetney (and Songaila) are decent replacements for the short term. Patchwork even seems confident that Sweetney is just as good as Eddy, offensively. He can't do a some of the things Eddy can do, but he can rebound better and overall make the Bulls a better team.



Patchwork is getting his info off a very limited highlights clip. Its so inconclusive that its a travesty that this thread even exists. Sweetney is nowhere near as complete an offensive player as Curry. Not even in the game ballpark. And he is actually WORSE DEFENSIVELY. But yes, he gets more rebounds but did we really need help in that area? Losing Currys offense and presence means alot, and i mean ALOT, less open looks for Gordon, Deng, Hinrich and Duhon, who all got looks as teams sagged in on the post entry pass. And Sweetney, a bench player for a team desperately needing inside help, wont help.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

You guys can spew all you want about Sweetney.

Some of it is right. He does tend to finish or get to the line if you give him the rock down low. He is a good rebounder. 

But, if he fouls people like he does and cannot stay on the floor and gets the other team to the line and gets us in the penalty, then its trouble.

If we really start Chandler and Sweetney.... I can see foul trouble being an issue in many of our games. Poor Tyson. Sweetney is going to have trouble Ding up his guy... Sweets will either have to foul him or ole him and then poor Tyson is going to have to make the play or get fouled.

I think Sweetney does many things well... but its tough to argue that anything the Bulls can fix his weaknesses... which is being fat and slow on D and lazy with the fouls.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Just for the record, if I had never seen Sweetney play (I spend half my time in NY, have gone to about 20 games over the last 2 years at MSG) I would think based on this thread that the Bulls traded Eddy Curry for a Kevin McHale/Dennis Rodman mix. Doesnt anyone, but me, think this has gone just a tad too far? And the basis is on some little clip? 

This is what I see

Knicks 33-49

Michael Sweetney
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3712

We are talking about a player who we are claiming is going to make up for Eddy Curry when in fact, he couldnt provide a big time loser like the Knicks with what we want him to do here? Doesnt anyone else go cross eyed at this logic. I mean, if he had an allstar in front of him, even on a loser, I could see the argument for the diamond in the rough but all the players in front of him were garbage for the most part. And now we have Dennis McHale or Kevin Rodman? Cmon people. Get a grip on reality.


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## windy_bull (Sep 28, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> ........ He isnt that quick and he has terrible conditioning. And he isnt athletic. Doing things the right way is fine and good but eventually you need that world beater. Pax has brought in 2 guys who have the potential to be that player, Deng and Gordon. But lets not get ahead of ourselves, to say the Bulls "won" this trade is not even something Pax would say I am afraid.


I agree with you ... the future of the bulls will depend on the development of deng and gordon .... but additionally we will need a few " good soldiers" who will just execute what they are supposed to .... and in my opinion sweetney has all the tools to be one of those guys ... right behind hinrich and chandler ... and I think he is a better fit to this team than eddy ...

but of course .... if chandler fails to be a true center ... all that I wrote becomes wrong .... and we will miss eddy big time ....


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

rlucas4257 said:


> No offense taken MDC
> 
> What Futs is saying is that rebounding isnt the issue with the club. It was a strength of ours last year and would be this year with or without Eddy Curry. But what has happened is that we traded away what Curry brought to the table without acquiring some semblance of that or without having an established ready made replacement. We can talk about rebounding and defense til we are blue in the face, but if you dont score, you dont win. And I doubt Sweetney can replace that interior scoring and our little guards are not going to have guys sagging off of them preventing the entry pass into the post either.


Well, that's a different argument, I think. A more complex one too. As I understand it, the original point that I was making was that Sweetney was a better defensive rebounder than Curry, and it was significant.

As for whether the Bulls could improve in defensive rebounding - check this out rlucas, a list ranking teams on percentage of missed shots rebounded, 2005:

Team	% Reb
Hou	0.702403457
Atl	0.698056801
Uta	0.693568336
NY	0.693020562
NJN	0.690772346
Ind	0.687713311
Phi	0.687635575
Mia	0.687239583
Chi	0.684544254
Tor	0.683636364
San	0.68247875
Orl	0.679305741
Min	0.677165354
Det	0.676653171
Den	0.676422319
Mil	0.671787709
Dal	0.670909573
Sea	0.669855072
Cha	0.668671249
LaC	0.666757197
Cle	0.666100255
LaL	0.663057829
NO	0.660776362
Bos	0.658207343
GS	0.657489879
Sac	0.65379494
Mem	0.65335599
Was	0.650589203
Pho	0.637960067
Por	0.634970946

The Bulls were certainly good. It was one of their strengths. But they could improve as well.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

windy_bull said:


> I agree with you ... the future of the bulls will depend on the development of deng and gordon .... but additionally we will need a few " good soldiers" who will just execute what they are supposed to .... and in my opinion sweetney has all the tools to be one of those guys ... right behind hinrich and chandler ... and I think he is a better fit to this team than eddy ...
> 
> but of course .... if chandler fails to be a true center ... all that I wrote becomes wrong .... and we will miss eddy big time ....



I just think that Sweetney has been a relatively soilder in NYC. I know he will be painted as a good guy by the Bulls organization, but the fact is that NY drafted him to be an inside presence and ever since then he has shown up overweight and unable to be counted on. Tim Thomas might be the jewel of this trade, but I am 90% sure its not MSweet


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

MongolianDeathCloud said:


> Well, that's a different argument, I think. A more complex one too. As I understand it, the original point that I was making was that Sweetney was a better defensive rebounder than Curry, and it was significant.
> 
> As for whether the Bulls could improve in defensive rebounding - check this out rlucas, a list ranking teams on percentage of missed shots rebounded, 2005:
> 
> ...



Interesting stat. But its still not something that I would putting big time stock in for me. We needed a big defensive 2 guard (not done), a sweet shooting big (done) but now we need a post up option. That was something we didnt need a week ago.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

rlucas4257 said:


> Just for the record, if I had never seen Sweetney play (I spend half my time in NY, have gone to about 20 games over the last 2 years at MSG) I would think based on this thread that the Bulls traded Eddy Curry for a Kevin McHale/Dennis Rodman mix. Doesnt anyone, but me, think this has gone just a tad too far? And the basis is on some little clip?
> 
> This is what I see
> 
> ...


On the flipside, I'd argue that some people here make Eddy Curry sound like Shaq. It's as if his on court production is irreplaceable. Nevermind the fact that he was on some of the worst teams ever. 

So IMO, if a complete outsider was looking in on this thread, it'd seem like people were trying to compare Dennis McHale to Shaq.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

MongolianDeathCloud said:


> On the flipside, I'd argue that some people here make Eddy Curry sound like Shaq. It's as if his on court production is irreplaceable. Nevermind the fact that he was on some of the worst teams ever.
> 
> So IMO, if a complete outsider was looking in on this thread, it'd seem like people were trying to compare Dennis McHale to Shaq.



I actually dont think Currys production is replaceable mate. Sure, he isnt a good rebounder (I never thought he would be since the day he was drafted, I guess thats why I dont care so much) or defensive player (though, scary as it sounds, he is actually much better then Sweetney) but what he has done, as a 22 year, is pretty scary. I mean, how many 5s, 22 year old 5s, have averaged 16 ppg in a season? How many 5s, at the age of 19, have led the league in FG% and beating out Shaq and Yao in the process? I mean, what Curry does, he frankly is pretty F'in (my word for the night) good at. And I cant think of more then 3 centers league wide who can replace that interior offense. Shaq, Yao and since I dont count Duncan or Amare as true 5s, Z.


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## windy_bull (Sep 28, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> I just think that Sweetney has been a relatively soilder in NYC. I know he will be painted as a good guy by the Bulls organization, but the fact is that NY drafted him to be an inside presence and ever since then he has shown up overweight and unable to be counted on. Tim Thomas might be the jewel of this trade, but I am 90% sure its not MSweet



well .. the next couple of months will show where we are heading ... but generally speaking I just think that you overrate athletism - I am aware of your love for iggy and pietrus :biggrin: and I agree that in the nba athletism is a major factor ... but then if you look at a few of the all time greats ( magic / bird / barkley / duncan ... and even bill russell ) .... they were all much more smart than athletic players ...

I think that our current group of players is a good mix of athletism and basketball intelligence ...


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> What???????
> 
> WTF are you talking about? Replacable and replicated?
> 
> ...


First off, why the tone? I didn't come at you disrespectfully. You don't know what the words replaceable and replicated mean? No need to start catching feelings.

As to my point that maybe you wanna see elaborated upon, 16 points *are* more than replaceable. Those points might not necessarily come from the center position, but it is possible to make up those points, though probably not at the same fg% that Curry had. Beyond that, another reason why he is more than replaceable lies with the fact that scoring is but one aspect of the game. His rebounding can easily be replaced and eclipsed, and though you'd be hard pressed to find a guy that'll shoot the same percentage as Eddy, you can find better overall offensive players. I'd much rather have Brad Miller than Eddy for example, since Miller scores at almost the same percentage, but also brings the abilty to rebound and pass the ball to the table, and is more consistent. So yes, Eddy is more than replaceable, in that you can bring in someone who brings a better overall game to the table.

And "if not easily replicated" part, if it need be explained, is simple: yes, I agree with you, there aren't many guys out there at center who who can score as much as Eddy at the percentage that he does.
At the same time, I'd more than happily take someone at the 4 position who scored a simalr amount of points as Eddy, shot in the high 40's but who had a more varied post game, and could get 10+ rebounds a game, who played good man and team D, and could actually pass well enough that his scoring would create good scoring opportunities for the rest of the team. 

One more thing: you treat the single season where Eddy led the league in fg% out there as something to hold out like he's a star, but the next season he shot 9% less and 5% less last season. And even if he were to once again shoot 58%, who's a more valuable player, Eddy at averages of 16,6, and six tenths of an assist at 58%, or Carlos Boozer at 15, 11 and 2 and 18, 9, and 2.8 at 52% the last two seasons?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

windy_bull said:


> well .. the next couple of months will show where we are heading ... but generally speaking I just think that you overrate athletism - I am aware of your love for iggy and pietrus :biggrin: and I agree that in the nba athletism is a major factor ... but then if you look at a few of the all time greats ( magic / bird / barkley / duncan ... and even bill russell ) .... they were all much more smart than athletic players ...
> 
> I think that our current group of players is a good mix of athletism and basketball intelligence ...



I rate athleticism number 1. Yes. A great majority of the great teams all have that in common. I grew up with the Lakers, The Blazers, the Bad Boys and the dynasty Bulls. The Bulls are mediocre offensively. Only Chandler and Deng (who is fairly athletic but not freaky) merit any consideration. The Bulls are smart and grittty, but see what happened against Washington? They arent considered to be a smart team but they athleticism won the day. And in this game, athleticism tends to beat everything else out.


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## windy_bull (Sep 28, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> . Only Chandler and Deng (who is fairly athletic but not freaky) merit any consideration.


you don't consider gordon athletic ??


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Babble-On said:


> First off, why the tone? I didn't come at you disrespectfully. You don't know what the words replaceable and replicated mean? No need to start catching feelings.
> 
> As to my point that maybe you wanna see elaborated upon, 16 points *are* more than replaceable. Those points might not necessarily come from the center position, but it is possible to make up those points, though probably not at the same fg% that Curry had. Beyond that, another reason why he is more than replaceable lies with the fact that scoring is but one aspect of the game. His rebounding can easily be replaced and eclipsed, and though you'd be hard pressed to find a guy that'll shoot the same percentage as Eddy, you can find better overall offensive players. I'd much rather have Brad Miller than Eddy for example, since Miller scores at almost the same percentage, but also brings the abilty to rebound and pass the ball to the table, and is more consistent. So yes, Eddy is more than replaceable, in that you can bring in someone who brings a better overall game to the table.
> 
> ...



So where are we going to get 16 ppg from the 5 spot at a mid 50s clip? Oh, and in the process, someone who can draw fouls? And you answer the question, why not trade Curry for Boozer then? Atleast we wouldnt be left naked on our post offense.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

windy_bull said:


> you don't consider gordon athletic ??



When I talk athletic here is who I am talking about. Rodman, Worthy, Pippen. I like the midsize athletes who can guard multiple spots and finish at the rim. Gordon is athletic, but at 6-1, he cant guard multiple spots and can rarely finish at the rim. Id put Gordon more in the smart column.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

sweetney imo does have more favorable attributes as far as a back to the basket game, (footwork, bball iQ passing ability etc) 

but athletic ability is a great equalizer and curry is way better in that regard. i would rather run my offense through sweetney than curry , but if i had a choice i wouldn't want to run it through either and curry is a better finisher. and finisher should be curry's role in NY with a few exceptions here and there.

sweetney is also a better rebounder...but there is no way is he a better defender, just no way Curry is villified for defense on this board when in reality he isn't that bad at all.

mike sweetney is the definition of non factor on defense, he doesn't get torched(mostly because he makes offensive players post out further than they are comfortable) but he's no bruce bowen and he isn't a good help defender at all.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> So where are we going to get 16 ppg from the 5 spot at a mid 50s clip? Oh, and in the process, someone who can draw fouls? And you answer the question, why not trade Curry for Boozer then? Atleast we wouldnt be left naked on our post offense.


Did you read my post or just skim through it? 


Babble-On said:


> 16 points are more than replaceable. Those points might not necessarily come from the center position, but it is possible to make up those points, though probably not at the same fg% that Curry had.


Again, those points can be prelaced, but the fashion in which Eddy scored them probably won't be replicated. At the same time, Eddy's abysmal 1:6.3 assist to turnover ratio probably won't be replicated either, and with a guy who can pass and help the offense run more smoothly, the field goal percentages of the rest of the team could very well rise. Eddy's poor rebounding probably wouldn't be replicated either, and through better rebounding the team would get more scoring opportunities, whether they be possible transition scores off of outlet passes from defensive rebounds, or second chance points. Eddy's also a less than good team defender, and through better team defense, maybe we'll get more scoring opportunities. As for getting to the line? One of the guys we'll be calling upon to replace some of Eddy's scoring, Tyson, gets to the line more often per shot attempt than Eddy(one free throw in every 1.25 shot attempts for Tyson versus 2.32 for Eddy). 

As for why not trade Eddy for Boozer? Because it'd be so lopsided in our favor that another team most likely wouldn't agree to it.

Anyway, I'll say it again, we might not replicate everything Eddy brought to the table(hence the not easily replicable), but all things taken into account, its not hard to imagine us eventually being better team without him(hence the more than replaceable).


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Babble-On said:


> Did you read my post or just skim through it?
> 
> Again, those points can be prelaced, but the fashion in which Eddy scored them probably won't be replicated. At the same time, Eddy's abysmal 1:6.3 assist to turnover ratio probably won't be replicated either, and with a guy who can pass and help the offense run more smoothly, the field goal percentages of the rest of the team could very well rise. Eddy's poor rebounding probably wouldn't be replicated either, and through better rebounding the team would get more scoring opportunities, whether they be possible transition scores off of outlet passes from defensive rebounds, or second chance points. Eddy's also a less than good team defender, and through better team defense, maybe we'll get more scoring opportunities. As for getting to the line? One of the guys we'll be calling upon to replace some of Eddy's scoring, Tyson, gets to the line more often per shot attempt than Eddy(one free throw in every 1.25 shot attempts for Tyson versus 2.32 for Eddy).
> 
> ...



I skimmed through it, sorry.

Now that I have read it, sure I agree with some and disagree with others. Why does everyone talk about rebounding so much? We are a good rebounding team with or without Curry. What we need from Curry is scoring. And he does it. Now, can we get a 4/5 who can replace that production? Sure. But this trade didnt provide it. And we almost no post offense now. And there is very little post offense coming out of FA next year. So it does appear to me to be very hard to replace. Wouldnt you think? I mean, is there some player out there who is available for trade that we can bring in right this second who can get us 16ppg at over 50% from the floor from the post? I just dont see a player. Boozer was a great idea on your part, and he could be an answer. But how are we going to get him?


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> I skimmed through it, sorry.
> 
> Now that I have read it, sure I agree with some and disagree with others. Why does everyone talk about rebounding so much? We are a good rebounding team with or without Curry. What we need from Curry is scoring. And he does it. Now, can we get a 4/5 who can replace that production? Sure. But this trade didnt provide it. And we almost no post offense now. And there is very little post offense coming out of FA next year. So it does appear to me to be very hard to replace. Wouldnt you think? I mean, is there some player out there who is available for trade that we can bring in right this second who can get us 16ppg at over 50% from the floor from the post? I just dont see a player. Boozer was a great idea on your part, and he could be an answer. But how are we going to get him?


I don't know if we were that good a rebounding team last year. Our rebounding differential was somwhere around 10th, which doesn't measure up well with what we accomplished defensively, and if we were had strong rebounding from the center spot, that would lessen the pressure on the perimeter players to rebound and maybe allow them to get into transition more.

I'd also argue that while Eddy was a useful offensive weapon that we'll miss, most of his points weren't out of the post, and that until he develops another move or two that he's confident in, his effectiveness in the post is going to continue to lessen just as it has the past two seasons, because teams have his baby hook and drop step scouted out. Eddy's absence also lessens the likelihood that we once again lead the league in turnovers.

I don't know about what Boozer's status is now, but I heard several times last season that the Jazz were gonna try to drop him. If Utah struggles, maybe we could swoop in and give them Thomas' expiring contract and the Knicks' pick, and maybe something else and make it happen. Though I have doubts about Pax trying it since his big bro got burned by Boozer.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> I would think based on this thread that the Bulls traded Eddy Curry for a Kevin McHale/Dennis Rodman mix. Doesnt anyone, but me, think this has gone just a tad too far? And the basis is on some little clip?.


Based on your rants and others, I'd think we traded away Shaquille O'Neal. Equally as ridiculous. 

I can't wait until the Bulls are up around 40 wins again and the people predicting them to fall apart look foolish, again, since most of the same people were saying that stuff about Crawford.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I can't wait until the Bulls are up around 40 wins again and the people predicting them to fall apart look foolish, again, since most of the same people were saying that stuff about Crawford.


40 wins is not very good.

certainly nothing to get puffy chested about. 

perpetually average is like kissing yer sister.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> 40 wins is not very good.
> 
> certainly nothing to get puffy chested about.
> 
> perpetually average is like kissing yer sister.


True, but I'd rather win 40 and have a lot of options that will help the team move up to being a 50-60 win team within a couple of years, than to be a 45 win team for several years without really moving up. I admit next year won't be a 50 win season (or maybe it will, last year they won 10 more than I expected), but I think the season after they could realistically compete for a title.

It's all about having a plan and seeing results. I think the Bulls have both going for them right now.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

I agree that Currys 16 ppg are replaceable but How do we replace the 300+fta from a player many around here argue to death only played 3 quarters ? Whether some of you wanna admit to or not those fouls played a key party in setting the tone of the game getting teams in the bonus early and opposing players in foul trouble which softened the defense up for our guards later in the game.If you think any of the players we acquired this summer that will be able to do that or give us a 12-15 pt quarter to start the game your kidding yourself ?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

windy_bull said:


> as I am from germany I have a hard time when I try to cover the nba. normally I order winning games at www.pontel.com and I am browsing the basketball boards to collect my information. I have been doing this for a couple of years now but this is my first post and it is directed to rlucas ...
> 
> I have always loved the potential of eddy curry ... just as I loved the potential of jamal crawford or the potential of jay williams or the potential of marcus fizer ....... the thing I had to realize was that all that potential ( or is upside the better word ? ) lead to nothing but losses .... my love for those "flashy players" has died during this time ....
> 
> ...


Nice post. Welcome to the site.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

similar thoughts on crawford last season at this time. We replaced his scoring and it was not Eddy that did it. We added more players and lost Curry. guess what? We can replace his 16/5. 

We went 10-6 without Curry. All 16 of those games were without Deng. What would our record would have been if Deng had not been hurt? 

I like Eddy as much as any one else on here. We are going to be alright. Especially if AD comes back to us and neither AD or Chandler get hurt. The center spot depth is questionable. That is the only real concern I have this season.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> True, but I'd rather win 40 and have a lot of options that will help the team move up to being a 50-60 win team within a couple of years, than to be a 45 win team for several years without really moving up. I admit next year won't be a 50 win season (or maybe it will, last year they won 10 more than I expected), but I think the season after they could realistically compete for a title.
> 
> It's all about having a plan and seeing results. I think the Bulls have both going for them right now.


LOL - Why would losing one of the "10 worst defenders" cause a team to lose 5 or 7 more games?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

johnston797 said:


> LOL - Why would losing one of the "10 worst defenders" cause a team to lose 5 or 7 more games?


Well losing Davis and Curry together leaves a bit of a hole, but I think the Bulls can cover it up. Losing 5 or 7 more games is because the east has improved a bunch, if you haven't noticed. That's why. LOL.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

WOW!

Who is this Sweetney you guys got for Curry? It can't be that same tub of goo that polluted the Knicks roster. Per 48s? Sweetney has to play 3 games just to get 48 minutes. Sweetney has underachieved since drafted and has shown no desire to become a better player.

I knew Curry was going to be enemy #1 on this board but this is just crazy. I also can't believe somebody evaluated a player that has been in the league 2 years via a clip.

All I know is that before the trade Chicago was considered a solid playoff team (5-8) seed and the Knicks would be lucky to make it in...we will see how things turn out with Curry in NY. (Oh, I know the Curry haters will attribute any success the Knicks have to LB)


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> Curry has great hands, soft touch and the ability to finish at the rim. Sweetney only has nice hands. He gets his shot blocked a ton.


Sweets got 9% of his shots blocked last season.
Eddy got 8% of his shots blocked last season, what's that about 1800 pounds he gets his shot blocked?


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

Mke Sweetney can replace Curry or not, I don't really care. Now, the Bulls need to come up with a new game plan. Back to Sweetney, from the video clip, I think we finally have what we were looking for in Marcus Fizer. A low post scorer off the bench.

I think Othella is going to start at the beginning of the season. And Tim Thomas will start at the 4 too sometime. Sweetney and Songaila are good scorers off the bench. Sweetney has the better post up game and Songaila the better mid range shot. I'm so excited for the new season to come. We have a pretty diverge type of players. We can score in many different ways.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

LMAO, all the same old "Curry had others to rebound for him and defend for him, all he had to do was score" arguments.

Well, Sweets shoots just as high a percentage, and he turns the ball over less. He grabs many more offensive rebounds, which leads to many more offensive chances.

Curry's lovers say "he didn't have to board, the Bulls still rebounded as a team". Well, don't you think the same will go for Sweets? Replace "rebound" with "defend", because from what all the numbers are telling me, Sweets is as effective on the low block as Eddy (with more assists and less TO).

rlucas, you keep ripping Sweets for doing all of his damage in "garbage time" and "late in the season", all the while praising Eddy for leading the league in FG% for a 2003 Bulls team that was worse than the Knicks were last year. I don't see what the difference is?

And I don't see that Sweets was sitting behind a bunch of scrubs last season. For the first 2/3 of the season, Nazr was starting at center and playing 28 minutes a game, and Kurt Thomas was starting at power forward and playing 37 minutes a game. That only leaves 31 possible minutes at PF/C, and Sweets was playing 17 of them. 

Nazr was good enough to start all 23 playoff games for the World Champs and play 23 minutes a game, and Thomas was one of 8 players in the NBA to average a double-double last season. JYD is a good rebounder and defender, and he got some PF minutes as well.

The Knicks didn't give Sweetney nearly as many touches as his same-as-Eddy FG% would have suggested he get. But with Marbury and Crawford taking as many shots as they do, it's no surprise.

Sweets will get his opportunity to fill Eddy's role- low post scorer in the first and sometimes early third quarter- and while I haven't even watched the highlight clip, everything I read from Knicks fans tells me that he has a lot of offensive skills.

Less than 48 hours until the first preseason game, I'm looking forward to seeing what Sweets can give us.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

i didnt read all the posts ,but if u consider tt as the gem of the trade, then we are in some serious trouble. 

IMO, sweetney will definitely produce if given minutes, he will put up nice numbers, the only difference between curry and sweetney is curry is a better finisher, he scores more effortlessly. curry plays over above defenders to score, while sweetney has to use his brute wide body to go and under around the defenders. its much easier for our guards to pass curry the ball and finish with the jam. sweetney doenst have the hieght or the ability to be like that. when he catches the ball he has to go around the taller defenders, do a couple of pumpfakes. but in terms of post game, sweetney is definitely up there with curry.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> He gets his shot blocked a ton.


No more or no less than Eddy Curry

They are exactly similar in this regard..this is where the science of stats is exact


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## Salvaged Ship (Jul 10, 2002)

Curry is as soft as Charmin. He has a body which is wasted by not knowing how to play physical, or simply not willing to. 

His basketball IQ is low, his energy is low, his effort many times is low, and his heart and passion is always an issue. If a player with his physical gifts chooses not to play physical and aggressive, you end up looking at potential and scratching your head. He is too nice, not the kind of individual to confront or use his size to intimidate. He can score a bit, not dominant scoring, yes. That is absolutely all to his game. What else does he do good?

I laugh when people say his job was not to rebound, just to box out. The guy is supposedly a man child 7 foot center, a once in 20 year type player I think Isiah said. Aren't those kind of players supposed to do more than block out so a guard can get the board? Isn't this supposed to be a scoring, rebounding, shot blocking machine? He rebounds, blocks shots, and defends like a girl.

And the problems with his energy, effort, passion, heart seem to be qualities that are not learned. You either have that aggresiveness and energy or you don't. Edward does not. I doubt he ever will. It lead Skiles to sit him in 4th quarters. It will also lead Larry Brown to early retirement. Do people really see Brown putting up with his lack of aggressiveness and heart? We actually got a few serviceable players, cap space, and draft picks which could be good for the question mark above with a uninsurable heart issue. 

If we get AD back, Paxson pulled off a miracle under the circumstances. And Curry is only one heart issue away from retirement. We didn't need that question mark tying up our future cap space.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Salvaged Ship said:


> His basketball IQ is low


Larry Brown was quoted just yesterday calling Curry's basketball IQ high. LOL.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

rlucas4257 said:


> Tim Thomas is a great guy, who I happen to know, with great skill who hasnt put it altogether yet.


Does he play pick-up games with you and Adam Sandler?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Well losing Davis and Curry together leaves a bit of a hole, but I think the Bulls can cover it up. Losing 5 or 7 more games is because the east has improved a bunch, if you haven't noticed. That's why. LOL.


We have the youngest core in the league. We should have massive internal improvement. We are probably going to get AD back. We have Songaila, Allen and Sweetney to replace Curry. Jeez, you apparentely think Sweeteney is better than Curry.



Sir Patchwork said:


> I think Sweetney can replace Curry's offensive impact, which will ultimately make the team better because he isn't the defense and rebounding liability that Curry was.


We won 47 out of our last 73 regular season games. But you think if we win 40 games, then we should salute Pax. What a joke.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> WOW! I also can't believe somebody evaluated a player that has been in the league 2 years via a clip.


I was very surprised by that, too.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Larry Brown was quoted just yesterday calling Curry's basketball IQ high. LOL.


What else is he gonna say? "Eddy Curry is dummer than a sack of hammers." It's called propping a player up. Brown knows what he's got with Curry and he knows better than to bag on his prized new possesion before the season starts. Give him three or four months before Brown starts selling his players out.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

fl_flash said:


> What else is he gonna say? "Eddy Curry is dummer than a sack of hammers." It's called propping a player up. Brown knows what he's got with Curry and he knows better than to bag on his prized new possesion before the season starts. Give him three or four months before Brown starts selling his players out.


Well, he doesn't have to say anything about his IQ, does he? He could just say he has great hands and knows how to establish postion. He could say that the Wallace brothers thought Curry was the toughest guy in the league down low (oh, he did). He could have said that this type of player comes along each 15-20 years (oh, IT did if Brown didn't).


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> After watching some footage of Sweetney from last year, I've come to the conclusion


Are you refereing to the MixTape from the other thread?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Don't get me wrong, I want Sweetney to become the next Eddy Curry/Elton Brand/Wes Unseld/Wilt Chamberlain as much as the next Bulls fan here, but here are a few things I think are hard to square with the probability he actually does.

Without going through this entire gorey thread:

* For those guys who put great amounts of trust in John Paxson's talent evaluation ability, he turned down Curry for Sweetney a couple times, and when he finally did it, he didn't appear too happy with it from a talent perspective. If he's not trying to justify it in terms of "Sweetney's a better basketball player" then why are you?

* I've watched this kid play from Georgetown on up to the pros, and he's very skilled. He's also been very slow. He is, in my opinion, only marginally quick enough for the NBA game. That might be improved upon, of course, but it not only is one root cause of his foul problems but it seriously hampers his ability to fit into a lineup with athletic teammates because he slows them down and reduces their effectiveness.

* After years of watching the "numbers game" argument play out on bad Bulls teams, I've concluded that coaches typically make the best use of players they have. Not always, and sometimes a guy proves a better fit with a new set of teammates, but typically if a guy is buried on the depth chart behind mediocre players, it's because he's also a mediocre player.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Salvaged Ship said:


> Curry is as soft as Charmin. He has a body which is wasted by not knowing how to play physical, or simply not willing to.
> 
> His basketball IQ is low, his energy is low, his effort many times is low, and his heart and passion is always an issue. If a player with his physical gifts chooses not to play physical and aggressive, you end up looking at potential and scratching your head. He is too nice, not the kind of individual to confront or use his size to intimidate. He can score a bit, not dominant scoring, yes. That is absolutely all to his game. What else does he do good?
> 
> ...



Good post! 

I fully expect Eddy to make Larry pull out the rest of his hair this season. 

One more thought:

People say Sweetney is a foul machine, consider this:

Sweetney is a young player that does not get "the calls" or the benefit of the doubt. Compare he and Eddy last season to fouls?

Sweet= 19 minutes, 77 games 224 fouls. 
Eddy= 28 minutes, 63 games 202. hmmm......True, eddy averaged more miniutes. 

But, compare year two of both players??? 

Sweet= 19 minutes, 77 games 224 fouls
Eddy= 81 games 19.4 min 226 fouls. Almost the same as Sweets

So what is my point? Some of the fouls that have been called on him in the past should stop. He will learn as Eddy did when to foul and not foul. To call Sweets a fouls making machine and not talk about Eddy in the same since is foolish. BOTH averaged over 3 a game last season.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Well, he doesn't have to say anything about his IQ, does he? He could just say he has great hands and knows how to establish postion. He could say that the Wallace brothers thought Curry was the toughest guy in the league down low (oh, he did). He could have said that this type of player comes along each 15-20 years (oh, IT did if Brown didn't).


He's right. It's been about 20 years since Benoit Benjamin was drafted. :biggrin:


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

On the subject of this thread...

Why didn't J. O'Neal get PT in Portland?

Some coaches like to play their vets and groom their draftees over time.

There are a lot of political reasons why players don't get PT. So I wouldn't read too much into it that Sweets didn't get more PT in NY than Othella.

There's clearly a big void in the Bulls' offense, and Sweetney's post offense fills it. It remains to be seen if we're going to take advantage of what he brings.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

...................... Min	FGM	FGA	FG%	FTM	FTA	FT%	OR DR	Reb	Ast	TO	Stl	Blk	PF	PPG
Curry .............. 28.7	6.2	11.6	53.8	3.6	5.0	72.0	1.8	3.5	5.4	0.6	2.6	0.3	0.9	3.2	16.1
Sweets ........... 19.6	3.1	5.8 .	53.1	2.3	3.1	74.9	2.2	3.2	5.4	0.6	1.4	0.4	0.4	2.9	8.4
Sweet per Curry	28.7	4.5	8.5 .	53.1	3.4	4.5	74.9	3.2	4.7	7.9	0.9	2.1	0.6	0.6	4.2	12.3


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Why didn't J. O'Neal get PT in Portland?
> 
> Some coaches like to play their vets and groom their draftees over time.


Three coaches got fired since Sweetney has been on the roster. You think one of them would have tried him out to much success if he was sooooo goood.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Mikedc said:


> * For those guys who put great amounts of trust in John Paxson's talent evaluation ability, he turned down Curry for Sweetney a couple times, and when he finally did it, he didn't appear too happy with it from a talent perspective. If he's not trying to justify it in terms of "Sweetney's a better basketball player" then why are you?
> 
> * I've watched this kid play from Georgetown on up to the pros, and he's very skilled. He's also been very slow. He is, in my opinion, only marginally quick enough for the NBA game. That might be improved upon, of course, but it not only is one root cause of his foul problems but it seriously hampers his ability to fit into a lineup with athletic teammates because he slows them down and reduces their effectiveness.


I agree with both of those points whole-heartedly. I think people are under-estimating just how slow this kid is. He makes Elton Brand look like E-Rob in the open court. Does he appear to have strengths where the Bulls need help, since trading Curry? Yes.

But I think the short term key (i.e., before they start filling out more team needs via free agency and their multiple first round draft picks) for the Bulls is to be a fast-paced, athletic, intensely defensive team this year. For that reason, I still think Tim Thomas might get some time at the 4, further reducing Sweetney's playing time. 

I'm not optimistic about Sweetney at all and I have many of the same concerns with his fit for this team that I had with Curry. Clearly his rebounding is superior to Curry's. But that alone doesn't make him a good fit. 

I'll be ecstatic if I'm wrong.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

I go with Sweetney.

I don't know if specifically as a back to the basket player , which is the *only* thing Eddy does well (and yes , it is needed around no doubt) , but as an overall player.

Eddy has big adv' as a C , and size.

Sweets has a better overall offensive game (expected from a PF skillwise) , since he really has the ability to put the ball on the floor (good at it) and even hit an ocasional 16-18 ft shot , unlike Eddy. Bothe have good post scoring skills.
rebounding - no comparison , Sweets is good , Eddy awful.
Hustle - huge adv Sweetney.
defense - so far both ain't great , but due to character , I believe Sweets will improve under Skiles , while Eddy could'nt care less till his career ends (as long as he says the right things)
Character is one of the main standards (imo) to know if a player can improve (in all game fields) - Sweets has it , Eddy yok.

Oh , and Eddy does not belong in a list with Wes or Wilt (neither is Brand)




Mikedc said:


> Don't get me wrong, I want Sweetney to become the next Eddy Curry/Elton Brand/Wes Unseld/Wilt Chamberlain as much as the next Bulls fan here, but here are a few things I think are hard to square with the probability he actually does.
> 
> Without going through this entire gorey thread:
> 
> ...


1. part of the reason Pax turned it down is Eddy has a big advantage being a C , always a position of need. There are about 5 (or more) 6-8 PF's for every true C. Plus Eddy did not have health issues. Plus that was after Sweetneys Rookie year (and after at midseason) where Sweets hardly showed minutes.

2. with this I completely disagree. I don't think he's fast , but he is definately Quick imho. His first step is based on power and is very flashy-like quick (especially with his weight , which is a problem) at PF. 

3. In general , I agree it's usually true. but I do not see it as the case in NY at all.the way NY looked and played last year , it seems the rotation was too much affected by ego , honouring the semi-star brats. Sweets , as a young player , with no ego , had no chance in that lion cage. They ate Williams alive as I see it. I think he should have played more to help them look better , and i also think if he were a 4th year player he'd overtake the brats to show ability.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Sweetney is a great post player but by no means "better" than Eddy with his back to the basket.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ace20004u said:


> Sweetney is a great post player but by no means "better" than Eddy with his back to the basket.


Frankly, when it comes to the scoring part of a back-to-basket game, there are only a small few that are better Curry. I don't claim to be an expert on Sweetney's game, but I have a hard time believing he falls into this select few.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Frankly, when it comes to the scoring part of a back-to-basket game, there are only a small few that are better Curry. I don't claim to be an expert on Sweetney's game, but I have a hard time believing he falls into this select few.



Well said and thats 100% correct. Who has a better back to the basket game than Curry, league wide? Shaq? Amare maybe? Brand? Very few. I have seen a lot of Sweetney though being a Crawford fan I turned into a lot of Knicks games, not to mention watching Sweetney in college and he IS a damn good post player, just not as good as Curry.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

johnston797 said:


> We have the youngest core in the league. We should have massive internal improvement. We are probably going to get AD back. We have Songaila, Allen and Sweetney to replace Curry. Jeez, you apparentely think Sweeteney is better than Curry.


I don't think we'll have massive internal improvement. Young guys don't improve as fast as people want to believe. We are _probably_ going to get AD back, but what if we don't? 

You underestimate the improvement of the east. We could improve as a team and still win less games than last year. Pacers will be back stronger than ever. Cavs look to be almost contender-like. Even the consensus 5th place in our division, Bucks, look to be a 35-40 win team. 



johnston797 said:


> We won 47 out of our last 73 regular season games. But you think if we win 40 games, then we should salute Pax. What a joke.


If 40 games became the norm, I wouldn't salute him, but for the position he put us in for the 2006-2007 season, I give him credit. 

You're the joke.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

johnston797 said:


> Are you refereing to the MixTape from the other thread?


No, that was someone else.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> If 40 games became the norm, I wouldn't salute him, but for the position he put us in for the 2006-2007 season, I give him credit.
> 
> You're the joke.


No, the joke is your talent evaluation. And you're setting zero expecations for Paxson. And me wasting my time arguing with people that think Curry is crap but the team will do worse without him.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Guys lets avoid the personal attacks and stay on topic here with pure basketball discussion, alright?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> Guys lets avoid the personal attacks and stay on topic here with pure basketball discussion, alright?


Thank you.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I must be the only one not impressed with Curry's post game. I mean, 73% of his inside points are assisted, so he wasn't the one that created it with the ball in his hands, it was his off the ball work that did him the most good. 

Eddy is best at working off the ball as a decoy trying to seal his man, and if the defense sleeps on him, he can catch almost anything in his area and finish really well. When trying to slow things down to dump it to him in the post, that's when things get ugly.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Sweetney may have more post moves, but he certainly doesn't have a go-to move as effective as Eddy's seal and baby-hook.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

johnston797 said:


> No, the joke is your talent evaluation. And you're setting zero expecations for Paxson. And me wasting my time arguing with people that think Curry is crap but the team will do worse without him.


Reading comprehension. The Bulls can improve, and still win less games than last year. If we were playing the exact same rosters from last year, with all of our competition playing exactly the same way and being exactly the same age and calibur, then I would say we win 50 games. Unfortunetly, you can't seem to get past basic concepts. I'm the one wasting my time arguing with you. Talking to you about basketball is like talking to Eddy Curry about defense.

But let's talk about how Tyson Chandler or Eddy Curry is better than Elton Brand, shall we? Good lord.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

ace20004u said:


> Guys lets avoid the personal attacks and stay on topic here with pure basketball discussion, alright?


I go where they take me. If they want to call my opinion a joke, then that's on them. If they want to talk basketball without all that, that's what I'm here for. 

The Bulls forum is always filled with a lot of attacks and not as much basketball talk. So I understand that coming in.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The Bulls can improve, and still win less games than last year.


Seven less games? A losing record and still be better. Agree to disagree.




Sir Patchwork said:


> But let's talk about how Tyson Chandler or Eddy Curry is better than Elton Brand, shall we? Good lord.


I never said Curry was better. I never said TC was better. I did say I would do the TC - Brand trade again. I did say I would rather have Tyson in the future. This is still looking very, very good IMHO.

:banana: :banana: :banana:

Is Brand going to sniff the playoffs this year?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

johnston797 said:


> Seven less games? A losing record and still be better. Agree to disagree.
> 
> I never said Curry was better. I never said TC was better. I did say I would do the TC - Brand trade again. I did say I would rather have Tyson in the future. This is still looking very, very good IMHO.
> 
> :banana: :banana: :banana:


Fair enough. 



johnston797 said:


> Is Brand going to sniff the playoffs this year?


I can only hope...that he is traded to another team, because Clippers aren't going anywhere with Cassell, Mobley and Maggette playing on the same court together. Clippers will have one of the worst defenses in the league, with Chris Kaman being soft too. 

I was upset that they let Bobby Simmons go. I think that with Simmons, Jaric and the rest of the team they had last year, plus an actual impact draft pick (like Sean May to back up Brand), and maybe a deal where Wilcox is packaged up for a defensive wing player, they would be right there in the playoff picture. But they went the wrong direction completely.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I go where they take me. If they want to call my opinion a joke, then that's on them. If they want to talk basketball without all that, that's what I'm here for.
> 
> The Bulls forum is always filled with a lot of attacks and not as much basketball talk. So I understand that coming in.


On the contrary, the signal to noise ratio is pretty good here. Minus the influx of useless ad hominem remarks by you and it'd be even better.

Of course, I'd probably be as frustrated as you are if I were trying to say the Bulls have improved their roster in any real terms and yet shouldn't be judged to have not improved if they have a significantly worse record.

That's just not a meaningful position. If I get a 3% pay raise but the cost of living goes up by 5%, then I'm worse off at the end of the day. 

If the Bulls get 3% better and the Eastern Conference gets 5% better, then, in the only terms that matter, we're worse off. You can say things might be different in the long run, and that everyone else will fall apart and our short-term lack of improvement is due to a long-term investment, and that might at least be a believable story. But I don't see how you can take the duplicitous stance you're taking and say the Bulls are somehow better off if their record is a fair amount worse. They might be better positioned for the future but they aren't better at the moment because they didn't improve as much as their competition.

Put simply, you can only measure a basketball team in terms of its competition. Saying it's "gotten better" without comparison to the teams it has to play is a nonsense statement.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> On the contrary, the signal to noise ratio is pretty good here. Minus the influx of useless ad hominem remarks by you and it'd be even better.


Just trying to fit in. 



Mikedc said:


> Of course, I'd probably be as frustrated as you are if I were trying to say the Bulls have improved their roster in any real terms and yet shouldn't be judged to have not improved if they have a significantly worse record.


Who is frustrated when I'm not the one that started throwing out the insults? I just come back with them. Exactly. You're not exactly the model example for civilized conversation. I guess you were frustrated with your position when you called someone a worthless piece of crap? 



Mikedc said:


> That's just not a meaningful position. If I get a 3% pay raise but the cost of living goes up by 5%, then I'm worse off at the end of the day.


This is true. My position is that they aren't getting worse because of losing Eddy Curry. Without Curry, they'd still be worse than last year. When people are claiming I'm inconsistent because I don't think Eddy is all that valuable, but predict them to win less games, it's out of line for me to mention why I think they'll win less games? 



Mikedc said:


> They might be better positioned for the future but they aren't better at the moment because they didn't improve as much as their competition.


I agree, and I think they positioned better for the future. A lot better. If they weren't, I'd be a lot more gloomy about the trade.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> You're not exactly the model example for civilized conversation. I guess you were frustrated with your position when you called someone a worthless piece of crap?


Because I am such a stickler for accuracy, to my recollection MikdeDC's statement was "worthless piece of ****" rather than "worthless piece of crap". Though it is probably a distinction without a difference as both are inappropriate.

Anyway, most of us don't agree with you, Patchwork, but we hope you are right. Not all of us hope you are right, but most of us do. Good for you sticking to your guns on a position that most, including myself, don't agree with.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Based on your rants and others, I'd think we traded away Shaquille O'Neal. Equally as ridiculous.
> 
> I can't wait until the Bulls are up around 40 wins again and the people predicting them to fall apart look foolish, again, since most of the same people were saying that stuff about Crawford.



Where did I compare Eddy Curry to Shaq? Where? The only comparisons that I heard were your Michael Sweetney is a poor mans Kevin McHale and Windy Bulls Sweetney has Rodmans rebounding instincts. Why would the Knicks trade away Dennis McHale for such a tub of **** then? Oh thats right, because Sweetney isnt that good.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

FWIW : Skiles said that Othella had a better postup game than Eddy, last year. 

I'm going through many of the game and Eddy really doesn't put his back to the basket all that much.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

spongyfungy said:


> I'm going through many of the game and Eddy really doesn't put his back to the basket all that much.


Bingo. 

Othello does have a better back to the basket game than Eddy. So does Sweetney. With Curry and Sweetney, it basically comes to Sweetney's advantage rebounding and back to the basket, against Eddy's ability to work off the ball and finish. It's close.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> Where did I compare Eddy Curry to Shaq? Where? The only comparisons that I heard were your Michael Sweetney is a poor mans Kevin McHale and Windy Bulls Sweetney has Rodmans rebounding instincts. Why would the Knicks trade away Dennis McHale for such a tub of **** then? Oh thats right, because Sweetney isnt that good.


Curry has been compared to Shaq, and even recently, I've seen people saying he will improve to reach Shaq's level in the next couple of years. 

Obviously neither Curry or Sweetney are as good as Shaq and McHale. That doesn't mean you can't compare aspects of their game to them.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> Anyway, most of us don't agree with you, Patchwork, but we hope you are right. Not all of us hope you are right, but most of us do. Good for you sticking to your guns on a position that most, including myself, don't agree with.


Well I thought the Crawford trade was good too, in the face of worry warts who swore the Bulls would fall apart. The Bulls got the better of this trade, but I understand I'm probably the only one who thinks that. We'll see how it pans out.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Othello does have a better back to the basket game than Eddy. So does Sweetney. With Curry and Sweetney, it basically comes to Sweetney's advantage rebounding and back to the basket, against Eddy's ability to work off the ball and finish. It's close.



No. It's not close. Sweetney is not as good a player as Eddy Curry. If he was, then he would have played for New York, and they wouldn't have traded him for a player who the Bulls management swore up and down could die on the court.

I mean, honestly, if Sweetney was this beast on the block, all-star in the making, like this thread makes him sound--then why did a team, desperate as **** to get something out of the low post, trade him?

Has Isiah Thomas made a bad trade with the Bulls, yet? He burned us on the Artest deal. He got the better of us in the Crawford trade, and he got the better of us in the Curry trade.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> I mean, honestly, if Sweetney was this beast on the block, all-star in the making, like this thread makes him sound--then why did a team, desperate as **** to get something out of the low post, trade him?


When I say Sweetney and Eddy are comparable, you think I'm making Sweetney out to be an all-star in the making because you think that's what Eddy is. If you have followed my posts in the last year or two, you know I think pretty low of Curry. 

My intention was never to make Sweetney out to be an all-star, just pointing out that he does have a great knack for post scoring, just like Curry has a knack for scoring, but both have huge weaknesses. 



futuristxen said:


> Has Isiah Thomas made a bad trade with the Bulls, yet? He burned us on the Artest deal. He got the better of us in the Crawford trade, and he got the better of us in the Curry trade.


We got burned on Artest, but that was Krause. 

Has John Paxson made a bad trade with the Knicks, yet? He got the better of them in the Crawfrod trade, and he got the better of them in the Curry trade. 

Point made simple, I don't know how you can say he got the better of us in the Crawford trade. We lost Crawford and we won 24 more games, while the Knicks were worse and in the lottery. The Curry deal has yet to show any results for either team, so can't make any judgements on that yet, although I'd say we got the better of it.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Pax got the better of the Crawford trade?
On what planet do you live on?
Paxson got ripped on the Crawford trade, but it didn't matter because of the draft picks he got and the Noce signing.

Othella Harrington and Pike are fringe players on this team now, the rest of the parts in the trade are gone.

As far as the whole "I'm not building Sweetney up, because I think Curry is crap" arguement, I think you're doing a poor job of communicating then, how you really rate Sweetney, because the whole of your arguement has been to build Sweetney up, without context to the rest of the league, which is what really matters. If you think Sweetney is comparable to Eddy, and you thought Eddy wasn't that good, then you think Sweetney sucks. But your comments don't speak to that.

The fact of the matter is that Sweetney is not a comparable player to Eddy. In size, playing style, period, they are not similiar players. Even an out of shape Eddy was more in shape than Sweetney is currently.

I think Isiah could have thrown anybody from the Knicks into the trade in Sweetneys place and you guys would be trying to build him up. And it's completely insane, outside of this world, un-logic.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Just for the record, this "worrywart" supported Paxson on the Crawford deal. Of course, that was mainly so Pax would have cap room for Chandler **AND** Curry plus the rest of the core. If I knew it was likely to get blown on Al Harrington or Chris Wilcox, I might have been of a different opinion.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

i m as big of curry fan as anyone, u guys know that. me and sloth are the 2 biggest curry fans. we loved him the day 1 the bulls drafted him. everyone at some point has doubted him, but me and sloth had never. anyway, the point is even for somoene like me who loves curry so much, i still think paxson did a good job, he has NO choices. he did as good as any GMs could have done. we got 2 nice players back, one essentially is a mini-curry. and some picks. of course,if curry was healthy, then i would be the first one to say "fire paxson" but lets face it, curry is a damaged good, its not worth the riskes to give him 60mil contract.

remember some of u guys (u knw who u r) who were wiling to trade a HEALTHY curry for just about anyone???? names that came out were " sweetney, mark blount, raef refrentz, chris wilcox..etc... u get the pic, remember that was when curry was HEALTHY!! and now some of those guys came back and bashing paxson for dealing a damaged curry for sweetney/TT and picks.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

I'm trying to avoid the whole Sweetney vs. Curry overall tangle.. but I have been reading something that has been bugging me. 

Alot of posters are bringing up the fact that Sweetney only played 19.6 minutes per game last season as an indication that he's no good. Which very well may be true, but I find it odd that this is being brought up in deffense of Curry. Curry only averaged 28.7 minutes per game last season. Significantly less than a starter. Last season, Curry averaged 4.5 fouls per 40, so on average foul trouble shouldn't have been holding him back too much. Why were guys like Harrington and Davis getting minutes that could have gone to the Bulls' only post scoring presence?

I understand that there's a difference in magnitude between the two arguments here. But I still think it's odd that people keep bringing this up about Sweetney when comparing him to Curry, because Curry has definitely not been the poster boy for winning out his spot in the line-up in the eyes of his coach.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Curry has been compared to Shaq, and even recently, I've seen people saying he will improve to reach Shaq's level in the next couple of years.
> 
> Obviously neither Curry or Sweetney are as good as Shaq and McHale. That doesn't mean you can't compare aspects of their game to them.


Again, Where did I compare Shaq to Curry? Now, I reread the thread, and its you who made the most ludicrous comparison in the history of man. 

Now having said that, I respect that you have stuck to your guns. But to say some of the things that you are saying kind of shows that you are going to just spew the rhetoric of being a fan. Its understood but it doesnt reflect greatly on you. And thats disappointing cause you come across as very intelligent on anything else. But why not just say that Sweetney is not Eddy Curry, or Kevin McHale. And if Sweetney were as good as Curry, the Knicks wouldnt have traded Tim Thomas AND a first round pick AND a second round pick AND the right to swap other number one picks. If Sweetney were as good as Curry, why wouldnt he play significant minutes for a club lacking at his spot and terrible? Heck, even Pax wouldnt say Sweetney is in Currys league. So lets keep it realistic here. If most of us wanted to listen to make believe, we would go to some of the other sites.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> Heck, even Pax wouldnt say Sweetney is in Currys league.


Yep, per yours and futuristxen's arguement, let's cut the ****. Anyone that is stating that Sweetney is as good as Curry should state where they think each player's career is likely to wind up. I hear a bunch of hedging going on by the guys knocking Curry and supporting Sweetney.

IMHO, Curry is an average starter that will likely grow into at least boardline all-star and Sweetney is going down the 7th man path.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

rlucas4257 said:


> I actually dont think Currys production is replaceable mate. Sure, he isnt a good rebounder (I never thought he would be since the day he was drafted, I guess thats why I dont care so much) or defensive player (though, scary as it sounds, he is actually much better then Sweetney) but what he has done, as a 22 year, is pretty scary. I mean, how many 5s, 22 year old 5s, have averaged 16 ppg in a season? How many 5s, at the age of 19, have led the league in FG% and beating out Shaq and Yao in the process? I mean, what Curry does, he frankly is pretty F'in (my word for the night) good at. And I cant think of more then 3 centers league wide who can replace that interior offense. Shaq, Yao and since I dont count Duncan or Amare as true 5s, Z.


That's the flaw in this argument in my opinion, peoples' obsession with romantisizing the center position. Because Stoudamire is a few inches shorter then if he were to make an identical contribution as Curry as far as fg % and points per minutes, his offensive production would be less valuable because he's a four in your opinion and Curry is a five? Huh? Points are points. I suppose there's something to be said about a balanced attack and spreading the defense, but it's not as though Amare spends a ton of time out by the arc. Sure Curry is one of the best centers in the league and that's a rare commodity but it's also extremely rare to find a dominant center so in my opinion being the fifth best center in the league doesn't mean a whole lot out of context. I certainly don't believe that the fifth best lefty reliever in baseball or punter in football is worthy of being one of the sport's highest paid players. Center is different in that the best centers are capable of being dominant but being one of the better centers means very little due to the lack of depth at the position. Who's 6th and 7th in your opinion? Okur? Mohammed? Brezec? By your logic these guys are better than 90% of the centers in the league but I certainly would not consider paying them 10 million dollars (though at least the Jazz disagree I suppose), especially not when the 5th or 6th best power forward is Brand, Marion, or Bosh.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

People are acting as though we traded Eddy for Sweetney straight up. Sweetney does not have to be as good as Curry for this trade to work out for the Bulls.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Just trying to fit in.
> 
> Who is frustrated when I'm not the one that started throwing out the insults? I just come back with them. Exactly. You're not exactly the model example for civilized conversation. I guess you were frustrated with your position when you called someone a worthless piece of crap?


Meh. Not particularly. Just doing what you claim to be doing here and returning the favor. In contrast, I've seen you start the name calling on a couple of occasions, including this one.

Beyond that, it might be pointed out that J797 didn't call you a joke, he called the idea if we should be patting Pax on the back for taking a big step back in winning pct a joke. Not a personal insult at all. There's a pretty big difference in saying your argument is (understatement) jokingly unconvincing and saying a person themselves is a joke. Smart people make bad arguments all the time. Smart people, however, rarely start calling other people names without provocation. Especially when they've agreed to take a role here in trying to keep things cool.

And Ron, for the sake of accuracy it's MikeDC, not MikdeDC


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

How many more times will we be reading the "if Sweets was any good, the Knicks wouldn't have traded him" BS?

According to most of the people saying this, Eddy is a certain multi-time All-Star and already a top-5 center, so why does it make Sweets suck because the Knicks traded him for an All-Star? 



rlucas4257 said:


> How many 5s, at the age of 19, have led the league in FG% and beating out Shaq and Yao in the process?


ZERO, Eddy was 20 when he did it, no matter how many times you say he was 19, he was really 20.

And once again I'll ask, how was Eddy's garbage time season leading the league in FG% any better than the good numbers Sweets put up last season in garbage time? For Eddy it means something (enough for you to mention it in at least 4 or 5 different posts), for Sweets it means nothing because it was "garbage time"?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Well I thought the Crawford trade was good too, in the face of worry warts who swore the Bulls would fall apart. The Bulls got the better of this trade, but I understand I'm probably the only one who thinks that. We'll see how it pans out.


Saying the Bulls got the better of the trade is different than the premise of the post, which is that Sweetney has a better back-to-basket game than Curry. That is the part I was talking about and that is the part I don't agree with.

I think, in the long run, its entirely possible that the Bulls will have gotten the better of trade. But I definitely can't say that now. Not based solely on the acquisition of Thomas and Sweetney.

P.S. I was a fan of the Crawford trade too. But that trade and this one are two completely different animals.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Mikedc said:


> And Ron, for the sake of accuracy it's MikeDC, not MikdeDC


Damn typos. I've got to stop drinking Grey Goose at work . . . . . for the sake of accuracy. :wink:


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Damn typos. I've got to stop drinking Grey Goose at work . . . . . for the sake of accuracy. :wink:


Accuracy demands Woodford Reserve Bourbon!


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Pax got the better of the Crawford trade?
> On what planet do you live on?


The planet where the Bulls improved by 23 games after trading Crawford, *AND* the Knicks went from playoff team to lottery team after acquiring him.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> Again, Where did I compare Shaq to Curry? Now, I reread the thread, and its you who made the most ludicrous comparison in the history of man.
> 
> Now having said that, I respect that you have stuck to your guns. But to say some of the things that you are saying kind of shows that you are going to just spew the rhetoric of being a fan. Its understood but it doesnt reflect greatly on you. And thats disappointing cause you come across as very intelligent on anything else. But why not just say that Sweetney is not Eddy Curry, or Kevin McHale. And if Sweetney were as good as Curry, the Knicks wouldnt have traded Tim Thomas AND a first round pick AND a second round pick AND the right to swap other number one picks. If Sweetney were as good as Curry, why wouldnt he play significant minutes for a club lacking at his spot and terrible? Heck, even Pax wouldnt say Sweetney is in Currys league. So lets keep it realistic here. If most of us wanted to listen to make believe, we would go to some of the other sites.


You need to get off the Kevin McHale comparison. You're really holding onto that too tight. I compared Sweetney to him because of his post game and footwork, but even then I said extremely poor mans Kevin McHale. 

And you need to stop acting like this is optimism here, because I don't think highly of either player. Your whole "keep it real" angle is irrelevant.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The planet where the Bulls improved by 23 games after trading Crawford, *AND* the Knicks went from playoff team to lottery team after acquiring him.


Do you really think that 1 player could have such a powerful impact on a team in either direction?

Really? You think the acquisition or departure of one non-all-star level guard could make such a difference?

Because I'm not sure what type of planet that kind of stuff goes down on either.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> Beyond that, it might be pointed out that J797 didn't call you a joke, he called the idea if we should be patting Pax on the back for taking a big step back in winning pct a joke. Not a personal insult at all. There's a pretty big difference in saying your argument is (understatement) jokingly unconvincing and saying a person themselves is a joke. Smart people make bad arguments all the time. Smart people, however, rarely start calling other people names without provocation. Especially when they've agreed to take a role here in trying to keep things cool.


Calling someones opinion a joke is an insult. You can try to sidestep that all you want, that would be like me saying I called him a joke, meaning he is a funny and entertaining and I like that. You can use technicalities all you want, but when someone insults me, that's where I should leave it alone and stop replying but I usually take it a step further. I'll never start it though, and I sure as hell didn't start it here.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> And if Sweetney were as good as Curry, the Knicks wouldnt have traded Tim Thomas AND a first round pick AND a second round pick AND the right to swap other number one picks.


Why would he trade Nazr Mohammed for Malik Rose? Why would Jerry Krause trade Ron Artest and Brad Miller for Jalen Rose? 

This stuff happens. Isiah Thomas especially, gets fascinated with certain players and goes out of his way to acquire them.


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## Nobull1 (Oct 6, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Why would he trade Nazr Mohammed for Malik Rose? Why would Jerry Krause trade Ron Artest and Brad Miller for Jalen Rose?
> 
> This stuff happens. Isiah Thomas especially, gets fascinated with certain players and goes out of his way to acquire them.


Artest was a nut job


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Nobull1 said:


> Artest was a nut job


Yup. People seem to forget this. Or choose to forget this.

Artest was going absolutly bonkers. Yelling at people. Kicking dents in the advertisng courtside. It was a bad scene. He was a great player, but he needed to go. Man, that team Bulls team really, really sucked.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Anyways, I'm going to say my final piece on this. I think Michael Sweetney and Eddy Curry are very comparable. Sweetney is equally good as a scorer, but is pretty foul prone at this point, but Eddy would be too if he wasn't giving up layups when he got beat. I think Sweetney has better defensive instincts though, and will eventually adjust to being an average defender possibly. Maybe Larry Brown can teach Eddy Curry some things about defense, but Curry's problems are more mental than anything. Neither player is a top 50 player, and both are more realistically bench players. But both are one dimensional post scorers, who do it in different ways. Curry works hard off the ball, while Sweetney is more of a back to the basketball player with great moves and touch. Curry is taller and longer, but Sweetney is a better rebounder and they both get their shot blocked a lot, so I don't know what good the height and length is when you rebound like a shooting guard. 

So all in all, they're pretty comparable. Throw in Thomas and the pick, and the trade swings in our favor, imo. The pick could end up being the best player involved.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> I mean, how many 5s, 22 year old 5s, have averaged 16 ppg in a season?



Are you talking guys currently in the league or ever? Cause if you're talking ever, its not a very impressive accomplishment.

And Eddy wasn't 19 when he won the field goal title. His birthday is a few days after mine in December, and I turned 20 that December.


And again why do we need to replace those points from the center position? I figure Tyson will be able to make up four or five of those points, Gordon and Deng will both replace a few, Duhon and Hinrich might replace some of it if they've learned to shoot, Tim Thomas can definitely replace some of those points, Songaila can replace some.

I would've preferred to keep Eddy, because for all his faults, I do think he was useful, and that clearly his faults could be worked around, and maybe improved upon. But I just think his accomplishments are overstated. He is a good scorer, but he isn't the run your offense through him type he is made out to be. He's more like a center version of guys who play off the ball and can score off of being good finishers, and a having a good touch, like Cedric Ceballos. He has at most two moves, and last year, I saw teams have those moves scouted out many times, and when his defender beats him to his spot, and doesn't allow him position, Eddy doesn't work hard enough to get himself to a spot where he can get the ball in a spot where he can likely score. He also struggled when the defender stopped him from going to his right. If he had managed to even learn to make spin move to the left at some point during the years hes been in the league, he would've averaged 20 points a game last season. 

And then going forward, depending on what we do with our picks and cap space, we could get someone at the 4 who can score somewhere around 16 points, but also get us 10 boards, play better D, and actually pass the ball.


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## Nobull1 (Oct 6, 2002)

Actually there eight players who avg 10 bds per game.
G OFF ORPG DEF DRPG TOT RPG 
1. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves) 82 247 3.0 861 10.5 1,108 13.5 
2. Ben Wallace (Detroit Pistons) 74 292 3.9 610 8.2 902 12.2 
3. Shawn Marion (Phoenix Suns) 81 235 2.9 680 8.4 915 11.3 
4. Emeka Okafor (Charlotte Bobcats) 73 275 3.8 520 7.1 795 10.9 
5. Troy Murphy (Golden State Warriors) 70 251 3.6 505 7.2 756 10.8 
6. Shaquille O'Neal (Miami Heat) 73 253 3.5 507 6.9 760 10.4 
6. Kurt Thomas (New York Knicks) 80 170 2.1 661 8.3 831 10.4 
8. Dwight Howard (Orlando Magic) 82 287 3.5 536 6.5 823 10.0 
Only 4 of this players met the 15 pts part. So we are going find a player who will do this and there were only 4 in the entire league last year.


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## Nobull1 (Oct 6, 2002)

Actually there eight players who avg 10 bds per game.
G OFF ORPG DEF DRPG TOT RPG 
1. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves) 82 247 3.0 861 10.5 1,108 13.5 
2. Ben Wallace (Detroit Pistons) 74 292 3.9 610 8.2 902 12.2 
3. Shawn Marion (Phoenix Suns) 81 235 2.9 680 8.4 915 11.3 
4. Emeka Okafor (Charlotte Bobcats) 73 275 3.8 520 7.1 795 10.9 
5. Troy Murphy (Golden State Warriors) 70 251 3.6 505 7.2 756 10.8 
6. Shaquille O'Neal (Miami Heat) 73 253 3.5 507 6.9 760 10.4 
6. Kurt Thomas (New York Knicks) 80 170 2.1 661 8.3 831 10.4 
8. Dwight Howard (Orlando Magic) 82 287 3.5 536 6.5 823 10.0 
Only 4 of this players met the 15 pts part. So we are going find a player who will do this and there were only 4 in the entire league last year.
1.KG 22.2 13.5
2.Matrix 19.4 11.3
3.Shaq 22.9 10.4 
4. Okafor 15.1 10.0
Three of the four are all stars and have went to the Olympics. The are two MVP award winners. 
All those guys are high lottery picks. (In the top 10 actually)

The reason people are upset is because the thought that the Knicks would have this player just sitting on the bench when they suck.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

Nobull1 said:


> Actually there eight players who avg 10 bds per game.
> G OFF ORPG DEF DRPG TOT RPG
> 1. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves) 82 247 3.0 861 10.5 1,108 13.5
> 2. Ben Wallace (Detroit Pistons) 74 292 3.9 610 8.2 902 12.2
> ...



I don't think Sweetney is a 15-10 guy.

How about 15 and 9, something like that, there are a number of guys who are in that 15+ and 10 range. Off the top of my head, Boozer, Brand, Gooden, Randolph, Brad Miller, Bosh.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Don't know why Duncan isn't listed on that list.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

i dont understand how some of you have suddnely became curry lovers after he got traded. if my memory serves me correctly, wasn't Rlucas the one that acted like it was the steal of century if we traded a HeALTHY curry for mike piterius? wasn't he the one who claimed curry would never reach his potentail, hes just a lazy bum. i forgot the other guys names, but alot of you were pushing so hard to trade curry for some marginal talents/scrubs last year. now we got back tt/sweetney/picks for a DAMAGEd curry,and u guys are *****ing? whats with the sudden change of heart?


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> So all in all, they're pretty comparable. Throw in Thomas and the pick, and the trade swings in our favor, imo. The pick could end up being the best player involved.


No Curry is the best player involved and the pick won't amount to much of anything. However, it will give you and the rest of the crew a chance to delay admitting this was a horrible deal for the Bulls talentwise. Trying to spin Sweetney into anything more than the bit, role-player that he will always be is not even a defendable position.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> No Curry is the best player involved and the pick won't amount to much of anything. However, it will give you and the rest of the crew a chance to delay admitting this was a horrible deal for the Bulls talentwise.


No the pick is the most valuable piece involved and Eddy Curry won't amount to much of anything. However, his age/potential will give you and the rest of the crew a chance to delay admitting this was a horrible deal for the Knicks talentwise. 



MemphisX said:


> Trying to spin Sweetney into anything more than the bit, role-player that he will always be is not even a defendable position.


Trying to spin Curry into anything more than the bit, role-player that he will always be is not even a defendable position.


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## Nobull1 (Oct 6, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> No the pick is the most valuable piece involved and Eddy Curry won't amount to much of anything. However, his age/potential will give you and the rest of the crew a chance to delay admitting this was a horrible deal for the Knicks talentwise.
> 
> 
> 
> Trying to spin Curry into anything more than the bit, role-player that he will always be is not even a defendable position.


Here I thought he was the starting Center for a playoff.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I'm just laughing. I don't know which is worse, the undervaluing of Sweetney or the undervaluing of Curry. I will say though that Sweetney is very much a pf version of Curry on offense (has a lil more range on his shot) but better in the rebounding department, similar in defense but Sweetney tries harder, or appears to at least. There is NO comparison between Sweetney and Mchale...none.

I've watched a lot of Sweetney and while I wouldn't trade Curry for him and am not pleased at the trade in general I can say that Sweetney is gonna make a lot of people eat their little comments about what he can and can't do.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Just for the record, this "worrywart" supported Paxson on the Crawford deal. Of course, that was mainly so Pax would have cap room for Chandler **AND** Curry plus the rest of the core. If I knew it was likely to get blown on Al Harrington or Chris Wilcox, I might have been of a different opinion.


And the moral of that story is "a bird in hand is better than two in the bush."


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sith said:


> i dont understand how some of you have suddnely became curry lovers after he got traded. if my memory serves me correctly, wasn't Rlucas the one that acted like it was the steal of century if we traded a HeALTHY curry for mike piterius? wasn't he the one who claimed curry would never reach his potentail, hes just a lazy bum. i forgot the other guys names, but alot of you were pushing so hard to trade curry for some marginal talents/scrubs last year. now we got back tt/sweetney/picks for a DAMAGEd curry,and u guys are *****ing? whats with the sudden change of heart?


I supported a Curry for Murphy/Pietrus trade if we had to trade him. Just so your clear. And I have always been a Curry supporter from the very get go.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> You need to get off the Kevin McHale comparison. You're really holding onto that too tight. I compared Sweetney to him because of his post game and footwork, but even then I said extremely poor mans Kevin McHale.
> 
> And you need to stop acting like this is optimism here, because I don't think highly of either player. Your whole "keep it real" angle is irrelevant.



Again, your getting a Kevin McHale comparison based on what? There has never been a big man in the history of the game with Kevin McHales post game and footwork. PERIOD. And for you to make this comparison is beyond irresponsible.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> I'm just laughing. I don't know which is worse, the undervaluing of Sweetney or the undervaluing of Curry. I will say though that Sweetney is very much a pf version of Curry on offense (has a lil more range on his shot) but better in the rebounding department, similar in defense but Sweetney tries harder, or appears to at least. There is NO comparison between Sweetney and Mchale...none.
> 
> I've watched a lot of Sweetney and while I wouldn't trade Curry for him and am not pleased at the trade in general I can say that Sweetney is gonna make a lot of people eat their little comments about what he can and can't do.


I wouldn't confuse legitimate concerns about Sweetney's conditioning and propensity to foul with "undervaluing" him.

If there were any inkling at all that Sweetney could comfortably play 30 minutes a game for an 82 game season, I'd feel much better about the Bulls' prospects this year. But I think that the likelihood of Sweetney playing 30 minutes a game is very, very small.

Sweetney compares very favorably with Curry on a per minute basis. But as replacement for Curry, it seems we're getting at best two/thirds the player (and that's not factoring in Curry's ability to fairly successfully guard NBA centers by himself). I have yet to see one plausible theory that suggests how Sweetney will be able to play 30 mpg. Does anyone have one?


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> Again, your getting a Kevin McHale comparison based on what? There has never been a big man in the history of the game with Kevin McHales post game and footwork. PERIOD. And for you to make this comparison is beyond irresponsible.


Ever heard of a guy named Hakeem Olijuwan? Just thought I'd ask....


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

fl_flash said:


> Ever heard of a guy named Hakeem Olijuwan? Just thought I'd ask....


McHale had more post moves then the Dream. And inspite of a lack of athletic ability, had better footwork. Hakeem was a superior athlete with the most competive demeanor of anyone not named Jordan during his time. Hakeem was a better rebounder as well. Id take Hakeem. But McHale was the better post player. And at the end of the day, Michael Sweetney is neither the dream or mchale. Though with some of the absolute bs being tossed around, why not call Sweetney a cross between Jordan, McHale and the Dream while we are it.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

fl_flash said:


> Ever heard of a guy named Hakeem Olijuwan? Just thought I'd ask....


Who?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> I wouldn't confuse legitimate concerns about Sweetney's conditioning and propensity to foul with "undervaluing" him.
> 
> If there were any inkling at all that Sweetney could comfortably play 30 minutes a game for an 82 game season, I'd feel much better about the Bulls' prospects this year. But I think that the likelihood of Sweetney playing 30 minutes a game is very, very small.
> 
> Sweetney compares very favorably with Curry on a per minute basis. But as replacement for Curry, it seems we're getting at best two/thirds the player (and that's not factoring in Curry's ability to fairly successfully guard NBA centers by himself). I have yet to see one plausible theory that suggests how Sweetney will be able to play 30 mpg. Does anyone have one?


30 minutes? I doubt it. But then, Eddy has yet to play 30 minutes average per game. So we do not need Sweetney to do that. Not with our pf depth.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> McHale had more post moves then the Dream. And inspite of a lack of athletic ability, had better footwork. Hakeem was a superior athlete with the most competive demeanor of anyone not named Jordan during his time. Hakeem was a better rebounder as well. Id take Hakeem. But McHale was the better post player. And at the end of the day, Michael Sweetney is neither the dream or mchale. Though with some of the absolute bs being tossed around, why not call Sweetney a cross between Jordan, McHale and the Dream while we are it.


Are you serious? McHale was a tremendous post player. No argument there. Hakeem was easily his equal in the post. Just in a different manner. McHale did it with pump fakes, over and under moves and such. Hakeem did the same and he did it with such speed and grace that you had to check your eyesight to make sure you just saw what a man his size could do. I don't necessarily agree with stating that McHale was the better post player. Both were phenomenal. Both had amazing footwork.

As for the whole Sweetney thing - I'm not getting into that and I have never made that comparison. I was simply bringing up a counter to your assertion that McHale was the best post player - PERIOD.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

fl_flash said:


> Are you serious? McHale was a tremendous post player. No argument there. Hakeem was easily his equal in the post. Just in a different manner. McHale did it with pump fakes, over and under moves and such. Hakeem did the same and he did it with such speed and grace that you had to check your eyesight to make sure you just saw what a man his size could do. I don't necessarily agree with stating that McHale was the better post player. Both were phenomenal. Both had amazing footwork.
> 
> As for the whole Sweetney thing - I'm not getting into that and I have never made that comparison. I was simply bringing up a counter to your assertion that McHale was the best post player - PERIOD.



So do you want to discuss something that has nothing to do with the thread? Ok, ill bite. Hakeem had a great post game. The dream shake was the skyhook of my generation, well along with the Jordan fadeaway out of the block. However, Hakeem also played a ton FACING the basket. Alot of his stuff was done off the dribble and with midrange jump shots if people took the drive away from him. McHale, until the end of his career, was purely a back to the basket player. And McHale had a couple of years of high 50s FG% and high 20 ppg averages. And all of that was done on the block. Was McHale a better player then the Dream? Not in my opinion. In fact, within the last month I stated somewhere on this board that there wasnt a more underrated player in the history of the game then the Dream. But having said that, looking purely at post game, McHale was the better post player. No player in the history of the league had more post moves and McHale was a better passer out of the post then Hakeem was. And McHale did it with less, meaning athleticism. But having said that, Id take Hakeem in his prime to Shaq in his. Thats how highly I value the Dream.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

rlucas4257 said:


> So do you want to discuss something that has nothing to do with the thread? Ok, ill bite. Hakeem had a great post game. The dream shake was the skyhook of my generation, well along with the Jordan fadeaway out of the block. However, Hakeem also played a ton FACING the basket. Alot of his stuff was done off the dribble and with midrange jump shots if people took the drive away from him. McHale, until the end of his career, was purely a back to the basket player. And McHale had a couple of years of high 50s FG% and high 20 ppg averages. And all of that was done on the block. Was McHale a better player then the Dream? Not in my opinion. In fact, within the last month I stated somewhere on this board that there wasnt a more underrated player in the history of the game then the Dream. But having said that, looking purely at post game, McHale was the better post player. No player in the history of the league had more post moves and McHale was a better passer out of the post then Hakeem was. And McHale did it with less, meaning athleticism. But having said that, Id take Hakeem in his prime to Shaq in his. Thats how highly I value the Dream.


to say mchale is the greatest post player in the histroy of the game is a little over stretching. what's your definition of post play? someone who plays with back to the basket? if thats true, shaq is easily a better post player than mchale, wilt chamberlin, moses malone, karl malone, charles barkely(just because barkeley doesnt always play back to the basket doesnt mean hes not a great post up player, he was just being smart, knowing to face up and drive when facing a bigger,slower opponent, just taking advantage of his speed).TIM DUNCAN. i could go on and go...


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Some comments were being said about Sweets being more foul proned than Eddy. 

I made comparisons of the two, from last year and in year two of each player. 

I am surprised that many people are not talking about this fact:

Sweets fouled because the NY guards could not defend their man. Someone had to stop them! Or foul them as any second year player will not get the calls. 

Many mentioned Eddys "improved" defense. I say hog wash. We had guards that actually stopped their man. So therefore Eddy "appeared" to be a better defender than he actually is. Eddy will foul in NY until Brown gets the guards to actually defend. Eddy will also foul because of his conditioning. It can't be all that great. Not yet. 

I also predict Sweetnys fouls will go down. It may not be dramatically but it will go down.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sith said:


> to say mchale is the greatest post player in the histroy of the game is a little over stretching. what's your definition of post play? someone who plays with back to the basket? if thats true, shaq is easily a better post player than mchale, wilt chamberlin, moses malone, karl malone, charles barkely(just because barkeley doesnt always play back to the basket doesnt mean hes not a great post up player, he was just being smart, knowing to face up and drive when facing a bigger,slower opponent, just taking advantage of his speed).TIM DUNCAN. i could go on and go...



Lets put it this way, not one of the players that you mentioned, had the amount of post moves that McHale did. McHale could operate on either block (Barkley only operated on the left block) score with either hand around the bucket and could to the middle or baseline. He had scoops, fadeways, up and unders and drop steps that are just crazy. And McHale was so good that he got fouled constantly and was an 80%+ shooter there. Sure, Shaq is more dominant on the block. But Shaq uses size, not fundamentals to beat you. Its turn, lower your shoulder and dunk. In my opinion, McHale was the most complete post player of alltime. I think most who saw him actually play would agree with that. He was just unstoppable at the top of his career. That doesnt take anything away from other players you mentioned, all of which might be and likely are better players. But purely from a post perspective, it was McHale. And thats why I am so offended that anyone would confuse a deep bench player for a guy like McHale.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> Some comments were being said about Sweets being more foul proned than Eddy.
> 
> I made comparisons of the two, from last year and in year two of each player.
> 
> ...



TBF, I watched a ton of Knick games last year and agree with Walt Frazier on this. Sweetney fouled a ton because he wasnt in shape, couldnt move his feet and constantly reached. His fouls were not on guards or on post play, they were on the drive. Not one player, Jamal Crawford included, was isolated as much as Sweetney was last year. He has very limited lateral quickness which according to Frazier was a function of constantly being 30 lbs overweight.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Mchale was good in the post but not the greatest ever. 

Chamberlain, Russell, Dantley, Malone, and others come to mind. Barkley, Duncan, Jabbar( had post up game) Elvin Hayes, he could post. Unseld could post.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

rlucas4257 said:


> Lets put it this way, not one of the players that you mentioned, had the amount of post moves that McHale did. McHale could operate on either block (Barkley only operated on the left block) score with either hand around the bucket and could to the middle or baseline. He had scoops, fadeways, up and unders and drop steps that are just crazy. And McHale was so good that he got fouled constantly and was an 80%+ shooter there. Sure, Shaq is more dominant on the block. But Shaq uses size, not fundamentals to beat you. Its turn, lower your shoulder and dunk. In my opinion, McHale was the most complete post player of alltime. I think most who saw him actually play would agree with that. He was just unstoppable at the top of his career. That doesnt take anything away from other players you mentioned, all of which might be and likely are better players. But purely from a post perspective, it was McHale. And thats why I am so offended that anyone would confuse a deep bench player for a guy like McHale.


i thought ur definition of being the best post player is having the most post moves at the low block, then u said " He was just unstoppable at the top of his career". if this is the true definition of great post play, then all the players i had mentioned were better "post " plaeyrs than mchale. 

as for me, my definition of good post play is " it doesnt matter how many moves u have, it only matters of how dominant and good you are at the post" i think this is a better definition, i mean after all, isnt the main object of post play is to put the ball in the basket at the post area? 

and lastly, shaq isnt a better back to the basket player(again, refering to the definition, shaq is the most unstopppable back to the basket player of all time) than mchale?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> TBF, I watched a ton of Knick games last year and agree with Walt Frazier on this. Sweetney fouled a ton because he wasnt in shape, couldnt move his feet and constantly reached. His fouls were not on guards or on post play, they were on the drive. Not one player, Jamal Crawford included, was isolated as much as Sweetney was last year. He has very limited lateral quickness which according to Frazier was a function of constantly being 30 lbs overweight.


That may be true, but I still say he had to try and stop players that JC and others didn't stop. to say it was all because of conditioing is misleading. It it the entire situation.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Hubie Brown agrees with me.

"He became the most difficult low-post player to defend -- once he made the catch -- in the history of the league," contended former NBA coach Hubie Brown in the Boston Globe. "He was totally unstoppable because of his quickness, diversification of moves and the long arms that gave him an angle to release the ball over a taller man or more explosive jumper."


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> That may be true, but I still say he had to try and stop players that JC and others didn't stop. to say it was all because of conditioing is misleading. It it the entire situation.



TBF, he got isolated a ton. And also, when the guards got beat, he was never able to step in and take a charge. He cant move his feet. And that is why he fouls a ton. His Defense is atrocious and his conditioning is a big reason why. Just the facts.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sith said:


> i thought ur definition of being the best post player is having the most post moves at the low block, then u said " He was just unstoppable at the top of his career". if this is the true definition of great post play, then all the players i had mentioned were better "post " plaeyrs than mchale.
> 
> as for me, my definition of good post play is " it doesnt matter how many moves u have, it only matters of how dominant and good you are at the post" i think this is a better definition, i mean after all, isnt the main object of post play is to put the ball in the basket at the post area?
> 
> and lastly, shaq isnt a better back to the basket player(again, refering to the definition, shaq is the most unstopppable back to the basket player of all time) than mchale?


Reread the post. My definition of post game is who had the most moves in the post and the complete post game. McHale had that. And because of that he was just unstoppable at the top of his career. Shaq is unstoppable as well, but its a function of being very atheletic and big, not based on some fundamental reason. That much is obvious.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

rlucas4257 said:


> Hubie Brown agrees with me.
> 
> "He became the most difficult low-post player to defend -- once he made the catch -- in the history of the league," contended former NBA coach Hubie Brown in the Boston Globe. "He was totally unstoppable because of his quickness, diversification of moves and the long arms that gave him an angle to release the ball over a taller man or more explosive jumper."



again, coaches say those kind of things all the time, words like "most, ever, greatest" are really over used in the NBA. refering to the definition of hubie brown's quote, i would think shaq is easily more unstoppable when he catches the ball at the post.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

McHales greatest year

40mpg, 604 FG%, 26.1 ppg, 9.9 rpg (3.2 offensive), 84% FT, 2.23 blks, 3.1 fouls per, 2.6 apg, 2.6 TO

Thats just staggering. Now, does anyone think Sweetney is going to be anywhere near that?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sith said:


> again, coaches say those kind of things all the time, words like "most, ever, greatest" are really over used in the NBA. refering to the definition of hubie brown's quote, i would think shaq is easily more unstoppable when he catches the ball at the post.



Dont take it up with me, take it up with Hubie. McHale, fundamentally, was the better player in the low block.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Flash, just for the record, here is Hakeems best statistical year.

93-94	Hou 80	80	41.0	11.2-21.2	.528 0.1-0.2	.421 4.8-6.8	.716 1.6	3.7	3.4	3.6	0.1	2.9	9.1	12.0	3.6	27.3

Thats just staggering stats as well. 3.7 blks, 1.6 steals, and the 3.6 apg really jump out at me. He probably faced alot more double and triple teams because he was essentially a one man team then McHale. Very close. But as I recall, Hakeem basically did it from everywhere. He could be a center or a small forward with some of the things he did. Kevin Garnett, in his scoring capacity, did alot of the same things that Hakeem did. But man, what a player the Dream was.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I do agree that Sweetney could have some foul problems this year. He doesn't have great footspeed (although he does do a good job of getting up and down the court) and his conditioning is never and has never been where it needs to be. From what I observed of NY last year they used Sweetney a lot to guard oppossing centers and often he was at a serious height disadvantage that caused a lot of fouls. Despite not being in great shape Sweetney plays a lot better than you would think by just looking at him.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> I do agree that Sweetney could have some foul problems this year. He doesn't have great footspeed (although he does do a good job of getting up and down the court) and his conditioning is never and has never been where it needs to be. From what I observed of NY last year they used Sweetney a lot to guard oppossing centers and often he was at a serious height disadvantage that caused a lot of fouls. Despite not being in great shape Sweetney plays a lot better than you would think by just looking at him.



But having said all that he could never be more then a 4th string big man on a team seriously lacking an inside presence for a team who won 33 games. I mean, if they won 33 games and he was playing behind Chris Bosh or someone I would be excited. But he couldnt beat out some players who were basically garbage players in other places.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> But having said all that he could never be more then a 4th string big man on a team seriously lacking an inside presence for a team who won 33 games. I mean, if they won 33 games and he was playing behind Chris Bosh or someone I would be excited. But he couldnt beat out some players who were basically garbage players in other places.



I disagree. I don't think Sweetney was "4th string" as you put it. They actually seemed to trot Sweetney out pretty early and Sweetney wasn't a perfect fit on the Knicks. Hell, a lot of the time they had Sweetney playing center. Besides which, the Knicks were so defensively challenged that it was hard to keep a guy like Sweetney on the floor for long stretches, that should be mitigated a little on a good defensive Bulls team. From what I saw of the Knicks last season, which was a lot, Sweetney was truly the second best power forward on the team behind Kurt Thomas who is just rock solid. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at what Sweetney is capable of, particularly now that he is in a Bulls uni.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> I disagree. I don't think Sweetney was "4th string" as you put it. They actually seemed to trot Sweetney out pretty early and Sweetney wasn't a perfect fit on the Knicks. Hell, a lot of the time they had Sweetney playing center. Besides which, the Knicks were so defensively challenged that it was hard to keep a guy like Sweetney on the floor for long stretches, that should be mitigated a little on a good defensive Bulls team. From what I saw of the Knicks last season, which was a lot, Sweetney was truly the second best power forward on the team behind Kurt Thomas who is just rock solid. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at what Sweetney is capable of, particularly now that he is in a Bulls uni.



For the first few months Sweetney was definitely the 4th big guy. Thomas, Thomas and Taylor averaged more minutes. Jerome Williams played as many minutes early. And Malik Rose played as many minutes. So he was 4th string when the Knicks were playing to get into the playoffs and 4th string when they werent. And he couldnt beat out Maurice Taylor for minutes. I mean this team had nothing inside. Absolutely nothing. And they were terrible. The guy played 19.6 mpg. If he were good, he would have played 27-33 for a team desperate for muscle. Its not like he was a Chris Bosh backup, which I could then see the argument. For the Bulls, I think he is the 4th or 5th big on the team. And he is nowhere near as good as Tim Thomas.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

truebluefan said:


> That may be true, but I still say he had to try and stop players that JC and others didn't stop. to say it was all because of conditioing is misleading. It it the entire situation.


Cmon youre reaching here 


The way the knicks rebuilt their frontline says it all .They went out and acquired size,athleticism, and quickness all primarily on the frontline.

Last year the knicks didnt lose because of the crap about jamal and marbury not being able to defend anyone .Thats just not true .Im not saying they were great defenders either because they were not !!The reasons for the knick problems last year I saw probably 2 or more quarters of at least 60 games.


Bad team defense - the knicks perimeter players did fine staying in front of their OWN man but were horrible help defenders so the key to beating them was to run your offense and execute well as they would not defend pass the 3rd or 4th pass .

outdated frontline - teams put their size,quickness and athleticism in the game and when the knicks did get stops other teams bigs took the knicks bigs to task mainly Sweetney who was short and slow and Kurt thomas who was a good position defender but was slow and couldnt jump.

The knicks lost because they were out executed and when they did defend they didnt have the frontline to matchup with other teams and in the end thats why they lost so many games down the stretch like 20 games or something under 8pts.Other teams fontline eventually worse them out with theiir speed strength and length.

Thats why they've brought in Curry,Frye,Lee, and want to keep AD.

If someone wants a honest evaluation of Sweetney from someone who likes him and saw the knicks I will give you one name that stood out to me when I saw him last year.

A better version of _Lonnie Baxter_


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

TRUTHHURTS said:


> Cmon youre reaching here
> 
> 
> The way the knicks rebuilt their frontline says it all .They went out and acquired size,athleticism, and quickness all primarily on the frontline.
> ...



Now, finally, a realistic comparison.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

TRUTHHURTS said:


> Cmon youre reaching here
> 
> 
> The way the knicks rebuilt their frontline says it all .They went out and acquired size,athleticism, and quickness all primarily on the frontline.
> ...


Did I say they lost because of the poor defense of their guards????

Please show me where I said that. *I was referring to the fact that Sweeney is foul prone*. I said someone had to stop their players.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

ace20004u said:


> *I disagree. I don't think Sweetney was "4th string" as you put it.* They actually seemed to trot Sweetney out pretty early and Sweetney wasn't a perfect fit on the Knicks. Hell, a lot of the time they had Sweetney playing center. Besides which, the Knicks were so defensively challenged that it was hard to keep a guy like Sweetney on the floor for long stretches, that should be mitigated a little on a good defensive Bulls team. From what I saw of the Knicks last season, which was a lot, Sweetney was truly the second best power forward on the team behind Kurt Thomas who is just rock solid. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at what Sweetney is capable of, particularly now that he is in a Bulls uni.


*I guess if you keep saying it, it becomes the truth?* Because I keep reading that, even though I have already posted the minutes that show Sweets was the 3rd or 2nd big man on the team AT WORST. PERIOD.

Before the trade, Nazr and K Thomas were the starters, playing a combined ~70 minutes. Sweets got the most minutes off the bench, making him the #3 big man (behind a double-double guy and the starting center for the NBA Champs).

After the trade, Sweets started the final 25+ games, and he and Rose played the same number of minutes. So after the Nazr trade, Sweets was the #2 or #3 big man, #2 if starting means anything, #3 if you want to be specific and point out that Rose played one more minute per game.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> Some comments were being said about Sweets being more foul proned than Eddy.
> 
> I made comparisons of the two, from last year and in year two of each player.
> 
> ...



TBF, It kind of says it here that the Knicks guards couldnt stay in front of their man and Sweetney had to stop them. 

Again I say, it wasnt as bad you make it out to be. But Sweetney was isolated alot. and he wasnt exactly someone who could draw alot of charges.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> Now, finally, a realistic comparison.


I never said they lost because of guards defense.

A better Baxter is not a bad comparision. I liked what he did for the Bulls. Sweetney shoots a better pct.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

bullsville said:


> *I guess if you keep saying it, it becomes the truth?* Because I keep reading that, even though I have already posted the minutes that show Sweets was the 3rd or 2nd big man on the team AT WORST. PERIOD.
> 
> Before the trade, Nazr and K Thomas were the starters, playing a combined ~70 minutes. Sweets got the most minutes off the bench, making him the #3 big man (behind a double-double guy and the starting center for the NBA Champs).
> 
> After the trade, Sweets started the final 25+ games, and he and Rose played the same number of minutes. So after the Nazr trade, Sweets was the #2 or #3 big man, #2 if starting means anything, #3 if you want to be specific and point out that Rose played one more minute per game.


Actually Taylor played more minutes and Rose played as much. Throw in Thomas as well. Sweetney only played around 17mpg with the season in the balace. After they were eliminated, his minutes went to 22ish.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> I never said they lost because of guards defense.
> 
> A better Baxter is not a bad comparision. I liked what he did for the Bulls. Sweetney shoots a better pct.



So Lonny Baxter x 1.25 could start for the Bulls? 

And by the way, Baxter is a far better defender then Sweetney.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> TBF, It kind of says it here that the Knicks guards couldnt stay in front of their man and Sweetney had to stop them.
> 
> Again I say, it wasnt as bad you make it out to be. But Sweetney was isolated alot. and he wasnt exactly someone who could draw alot of charges.


Now who is reaching? 

That does not mean their defense was the reason why the knicks lost. Your putting words into my explanation. All I said was, people say Sweetney was foul prone. I was explaining one of the reasons why he may have been foul prone! Nothing more, nothing less. I also compared him to Curry and his fouls he got. Not about losing. 

For the life of me, I cannot see where both of you get the idea that I blamed the guards defense for the Knicks losing! Nothing could be further than the truth.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

bullsville said:


> *I guess if you keep saying it, it becomes the truth?* Because I keep reading that, even though I have already posted the minutes that show Sweets was the 3rd or 2nd big man on the team AT WORST. PERIOD.
> 
> Before the trade, Nazr and K Thomas were the starters, playing a combined ~70 minutes. Sweets got the most minutes off the bench, making him the #3 big man (behind a double-double guy and the starting center for the NBA Champs).
> 
> After the trade, Sweets started the final 25+ games, and he and Rose played the same number of minutes. So after the Nazr trade, Sweets was the #2 or #3 big man, #2 if starting means anything, #3 if you want to be specific and point out that Rose played one more minute per game.


Yeah, hadn't you heard? I have this magical ability to keep repeating things and turn them into truth! (Bulls will win the championship!) :biggrin: 

So what your saying that Sweetney started out buried on the bench and then was used more and more frequently. That sounds about right. In any case, he would be 2nd or 3rd string at worst...not 4th string...4th string is uhmmm....was uhhmmm..Reiner. In any case, it is irrelevant as Sweetney is a better player than his time in NY shows and I think that will be proven here. NY in general played a lot of their big men, they tried to compete with other teams athleticism and skill with fresh legs, not that unheard of really.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> So Lonny Baxter x 1.25 could start for the Bulls?
> 
> And by the way, Baxter is a far better defender then Sweetney.


He started before didn't he? 

I cannot argue with the second point because I have not studied his defense. So you have me on that one. 

I like Baxter. We have a glut of pfs, it does not matter who starts, it's who is in when the game is on the line.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

truebluefan said:


> Did I say they lost because of the poor defense of their guards????
> 
> Please show me where I said that. *I was referring to the fact that Sweeney is foul prone*. I said someone had to stop their players.


I was responding to sweetney being foul prone by having to stop the guards pentration and went a little deeper into the knicks.All of it wasnt directly related to your post tbf sorry 

As for Sweetneys foul trouble this guy picked up more fould due to him being 2-3 steps late on defense.There were so many plays where hes not following the ball the guys has it in scoring position under the basket and he turns late and bumps him and the whistle blows .Thats where he got the majority of his foul calls along with reaching when man faces him up and puts the ball on the floor.he has severe lateral quickness problems.

He reminded me of a bigger Lonnie Baxter in that he can give you two maybe three good games in a row but you have to know when not to go to him.I just dont think hes a 35mpg starter but 25mpg guy who can possibly start games but will only be effective for about 25 mpg .


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> Now who is reaching?
> 
> That does not mean their defense was the reason why the knicks lost. Your putting words into my explanation. All I said was, people say Sweetney was foul prone. I was explaining one of the reasons why he may have been foul prone! Nothing more, nothing less. I also compared him to Curry and his fouls he got. Not about losing.
> 
> For the life of me, I cannot see where both of you get the idea that I blamed the guards defense for the Knicks losing! Nothing could be further than the truth.



I dont know mate, this is your quote

"Sweets fouled because the NY guards could not defend their man. Someone had to stop them! Or foul them as any second year player will not get the calls. "


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> Actually Taylor played more minutes and Rose played as much. Throw in Thomas as well. Sweetney only played around 17mpg with the season in the balace. After they were eliminated, his minutes went to 22ish.


NO, Taylor DID NOT play more minutes. Taylor played 17.0 minutes per game with the Knicks while Sweetney was starting ALL of those games and playing 22.5 minutes per game. Rose played 23.6 minutes with the Knicks.

Sweets played 22.4 min in Feb, 21.3 in March, and 23.3 in April. 

His minutes went to 22ish in Feb, I don't think the Knicks were eliminated in Feb, although mentally they were.

If you are going to make claims like that, you should really look at the stats to see if they are true or not, it only takes about a minute to go to Knicks.com and see last season's stats.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> So Lonny Baxter x 1.25 could start for the Bulls?
> 
> And by the way, Baxter is a far better defender then Sweetney.


He started the season opener 2 years ago 

I don't think saying a guy is 25% better or worse is a very good comparison though, and I think looking at a player like Lonny shows why such linear approximations are inappropriate for Sweetney.

Lonny did a few things really well but he had some critical limitations as well. I do agree Baxter is an appropriate comparison, but saying Sweetney is X% better misses the point that he's still got an unusual mix of things he does really well and things he does really poorly.

Short of unforseen improvement, the only way he's going to be dramatically successful is if the Bulls put him in the right situation on the court.

It's not a matter of being better or worse, but of being in a better or worse situation.

I'll stick by my assessment that he'll be a dismal starter because he'll slow down our athletic team, get outquicked by most front line PFs and shot over by most front line Cs, and he'll get in foul trouble.

As a backup, he could be a guy that everybody loves and thinks should start though. With Duhon feeding him and a guy like AD, Songaila or Thomas creating space around him, and against smaller/slower second line players, Sweetney could be the focal point of our offense in the second quarter and start of the fourth. There he can have his best chance to score and will be least likely to create bonus shots for other teams.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Are we all saying the same thing.

Maybe a bigger Lonnie Baxter is a "poor man that lost his last dollar and goes from homeless shelter to homeless shelter"'s Kevin McHale. :biggrin:


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

bullsville said:


> NO, Taylor DID NOT play more minutes. Taylor played 17.0 minutes per game with the Knicks while Sweetney was starting ALL of those games and playing 22.5 minutes per game. Rose played 23.6 minutes with the Knicks.
> 
> Sweets played 22.4 min in Feb, 21.3 in March, and 23.3 in April.
> 
> ...



watch your tone

I went to Knicks.com and misread the stats, particularly Taylors. But Rose averaged 23.6 mpg for the Knicks, thats more then Sweets did.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

depends on how much u like or hate sweetney, he could easily be compared to:

baxter x1.25 (hate)
elton brand x 0.76544(like)

the fact is, sweetney is neither, hes somewhere between baxter x 1.25 and brand x 0. 76544,though more toward the brand x0.76544 side.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> TBF, he got isolated a ton. And also, when the guards got beat, he was never able to step in and take a charge. He cant move his feet. And that is why he fouls a ton. His Defense is atrocious and his conditioning is a big reason why. Just the facts.





rlucas4257 said:


> For the first few months Sweetney was definitely the 4th big guy. Thomas, Thomas and Taylor averaged more minutes. Jerome Williams played as many minutes early. And Malik Rose played as many minutes. So he was 4th string when the Knicks were playing to get into the playoffs and 4th string when they werent. And he couldnt beat out Maurice Taylor for minutes. I mean this team had nothing inside. Absolutely nothing. And they were terrible. The guy played 19.6 mpg. If he were good, he would have played 27-33 for a team desperate for muscle. Its not like he was a Chris Bosh backup, which I could then see the argument. For the Bulls, I think he is the 4th or 5th big on the team. And he is nowhere near as good as Tim Thomas.


You say he got in foul trouble a lot and then say he must be terrible because he didn't play on a team with poor talent up front. Which factor is responsible for him not playing?

Did he not play because he is horrible or because he is always in foul trouble? 

If the latter, couldn't conditioning remedy that to a large degree?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Are we all saying the same thing.
> 
> Maybe a bigger Lonnie Baxter is a "poor man that lost his last dollar and goes from homeless shelter to homeless shelter"'s Kevin McHale. :biggrin:



Hahaha

The McHale comparison was just so far out in left field that I just cant drop it. I should, but I just cant. Windy_bulls, great guy as well, but to say Sweetney has Rodmans sense of rebouding also rubbed me the wrong way. But Windy is a rookie making a rookie mistake. Patch is a damn good poster who literally just bought the Bulls Kool Aid hook line and sinker. 

I often wondered, if Pax said jump off a bridge, how many of us would? Probably a fair amount actually.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> You say he got in foul trouble a lot and then say he must be terrible because he didn't play on a team with poor talent up front. Which factor is responsible for him not playing?
> 
> Did he not play because he is horrible or because he is always in foul trouble?
> 
> If the latter, couldn't conditioning remedy that to a large degree?



His defense is horrible and that is why he couldnt stay on the floor. Because he is such a poor defender, and I am not kidding when I say Curry looks like an all defensive player next to him, he gets in foul trouble. And having said that, despite the 3 fouls + per 20 mpg, the Knicks didnt think enough of him to put him in there for post offense til he just fouled out. So that doesnt say much about his O either.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

TRUTHHURTS said:


> I was responding to sweetney being foul prone by having to stop the guards pentration and went a little deeper into the knicks.All of it wasnt directly related to your post tbf sorry
> 
> As for Sweetneys foul trouble this guy picked up more fould due to him being 2-3 steps late on defense.There were so many plays where hes not following the ball the guys has it in scoring position under the basket and he turns late and bumps him and the whistle blows .Thats where he got the majority of his foul calls along with reaching when man faces him up and puts the ball on the floor.he has severe lateral quickness problems.
> 
> *He reminded me of a bigger Lonnie Baxter in that he can give you two maybe three good games in a row but you have to know when not to go to him.I just dont think hes a 35mpg starter but 25mpg guy who can possibly start games but will only be effective for about 25 mpg* .


I agree with that last paragraph very much, although I would throw Eddy (the real, current Eddy, not the potential Eddy) in there as well. Some nights he came out like Shaq, other nights he looked like Koncack. (Yes, I used him because his name rhymes with 'Shaq').

And 25 minutes of post offense is all we need out of Sweets if he is very good at it, he's only replacing 29 minutes of post offense. Even if his post offense isn't as effective as Eddy's (it was last season in 20 minutes/game), it should be threat enough that he can make up in other areas what Eddy didn't give us (offensive rebounding, fewer TO, more assists).

I think Sweets can be effective for 25 minutes if he is in shape for it, which should be plenty.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> His defense is horrible and that is why he couldnt stay on the floor. Because he is such a poor defender, and I am not kidding when I say Curry looks like an all defensive player next to him, he gets in foul trouble. And having said that, despite the 3 fouls + per 20 mpg, the Knicks didnt think enough of him to put him in there for post offense til he just fouled out. So that doesnt say much about his O either.


But you said his poor defense is due in large part to conditioning. Why can't that improve?


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> watch your tone
> 
> I went to Knicks.com and misread the stats, particularly Taylors. But Rose averaged 23.6 mpg for the Knicks, thats more then Sweets did.



Watch my tone? How about you stop claiming things to be true that aren't true?

Did you also misread Eddy's age? He was 20 when he led the league in FG%, not 19, he turned 20 in December.

And yes, like I said already many times, Rose averaged one more minute than Sweets did after Rose came to the Knicks.

And I have already pointed out your mistakes in other threads where you made the same claims, and you posted in the thread after I pointed them out. That strongly implies to me that you just ignored the actual facts, but if I am wrong, I apologize.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> But you said his poor defense is due in large part to conditioning. Why can't that improve?



Conditioning is an aspect of it, certainly. But fundamentally it isnt good either. Have you seen the guy play for 10 games in a row? Teams isolated him like crazy. And he reached for everything. His fouls werent physical fouls, there were ticky tack fouls that often times led to 3 point plays. He has some serious issues. First off, he is short for his position. Second, he has no lift to make up for his lack of size. And third he has no lateral quickness. Better conditioning could solve the lateral quickness, perhaps the lift. But he is still short for his spot AND he has picked up 2 years worth of bad habits on the defensive end of the court. What makes you think that conditioning is going to solve that?


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

in case some of u didnt notice, we didnt just get sweetney for curry 1 for 1, we also got picks, TT big expiring contract, while in all, giving away a DAMAGED good in curry. i guess everyone would agree that curry is a better player than sweetney, nobody is arguing that part. but to say sweetny is as bad as baxter is taking a little too far. the fact is, sweetney is not as bad as some of u think, he does have excellent post game(again, who dosent know that). i just think whats done is done, leave it. swetney will do just fine. the bulls will be just fine. the knicks might win the trade by slight, but thats the nature of NBA trades. one team is gonna win out at the end. remember divac for kobe, robert tractor for dirk.... now those are the definition of bad trades. but in our case, the winner of this trade still hasnt even been determined. curry could easily drop dead on the court...(again i hope not, i love curry)

stop the sweetney bashing plesae.... he deserves better than that.

also the fact was that, paxson had no choices, either release curry or get sweetney, big expring contract of tt and picks or nothing. nobody else was interested in curry.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

bullsville said:


> Watch my tone? How about you stop claiming things to be true that aren't true?
> 
> Did you also misread Eddy's age? He was 20 when he led the league in FG%, not 19, he turned 20 in December.
> 
> ...



Curry was 19-20 the year he led the league in FG%. Shoot me. Thats such a blatant lie on my part that I should be reprimanded. :whatever: 

And by the way, who made you sheriff? 

Anyone who knows me knows I own it up to my mistakes. But if you want to be a mini Ron Cey, I suggest you find someone else to fight with.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Ok guys lets stay on topic and tone all the back and forth stuff down. I am sure everyone has made a mistake posting a stat before, no big deal...back on topic...shake hands and make nice.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> Conditioning is an aspect of it, certainly. But fundamentally it isnt good either. Have you seen the guy play for 10 games in a row? Teams isolated him like crazy. And he reached for everything. His fouls werent physical fouls, there were ticky tack fouls that often times led to 3 point plays. He has some serious issues. First off, he is short for his position. Second, he has no lift to make up for his lack of size. And third he has no lateral quickness. Better conditioning could solve the lateral quickness, perhaps the lift. But he is still short for his spot AND he has picked up 2 years worth of bad habits on the defensive end of the court. What makes you think that conditioning is going to solve that?


Not to be a *****, but you did say that conditioning was a big reason for his bad defense. Logically, if what you said was true, wouldn't improved conditioning result in a big defensive improvement?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sith said:


> in case some of u didnt notice, we didnt just get sweetney for curry 1 for 1, we also got picks, TT big expiring contract, while in all, giving away a DAMAGED good in curry. i guess everyone would agree that curry is a better player than sweetney, nobody is arguing that part. but to say sweetny is as bad as baxter is taking a little too far. the fact is, sweetney is not as bad as some of u think, he does have excellent post game(again, who dosent know that). i just think whats done is done, leave it. swetney will do just fine. the bulls will be just fine. the knicks might win the trade by slight, but thats the nature of NBA trades. one team is gonna win out at the end. remember divac for kobe, robert tractor for dirk.... now those are the definition of bad trades. but in our case, the winner of this trade still hasnt even been determined. curry could easily drop dead on the court...(again i hope not, i love curry)
> 
> stop the sweetney bashing plesae.... he deserves better than that.
> 
> also the fact was that, paxson had no choices, either release curry or get sweetney, big expring contract of tt and picks or nothing. nobody else was interested in curry.



Tim Thomas is the jewel in this trade, as is the number one pick. Sweetney was a throw in. And I just dont think he has this excellent post game that everyone is talking about. But thats just my opinion. The Knicks didnt think enough of his post game, or him, to play him big minutes inspite of his weaknesses. Perhaps a change of scenery helps, but I just have hard time believe a guy who was given a total chance in NY (no one of any real merit in front of him) is someone we should be comparing to Dennis Rodman or Kevin McHale. The guy was given a chance in NY and didnt do much. And now he has Chandler, Songailia, Tim Thomas sometimes, Luol Deng sometimes, Malik Allen, Othella Harrington (who played alot more then Sweetney did 2 years ago) and hopefully Davis to compete with and we expect him to deliver? He wont play more then 20 mpg with the competition he is facing in Chicago at his spots. And he most likely will not be re-upped when his contract is up the year after next.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

who was that guy that wanted to send healthy curry+gordon to GWS for piterius, and zarko+ a pick last year? granted the bulls were horrible at the time wiht 2-13 record. i won't name names, u know who u r. 

now why all the praises for curry? even when hes damaged good.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> Curry was 19-20 the year he led the league in FG%. Shoot me. Thats such a blatant lie on my part that I should be reprimanded. :whatever:
> 
> And by the way, who made you sheriff?
> 
> Anyone who knows me knows I own it up to my mistakes. But if you want to be a mini Ron Cey, I suggest you find someone else to fight with.


Really? I still haven't seen you own up to the "mistake" that Sweets was the 4th big man on the Knicks last season. He was 3rd in minutes before the trade, and 3rd in minutes (1 min less than #2) and the starter after the trade.

And I have asked 2 or 3 times in different threads, why do you keep saying that Sweets put up his stats in "garbage time" last season while praising Eddy for a stat that he put up in "garbage time" for a Bulls team that won less games (30) than the Knicks won last season? Why does Sweets gets bashed for "garbage time" production while Eddy gets praised for "garbage time" production?


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

TripleDouble said:


> Not to be a *****, but you did say that conditioning was a big reason for his bad defense. Logically, if what you said was true, wouldn't improved conditioning result in a big defensive improvement?


No, that's too logical.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> Not to be a *****, but you did say that conditioning was a big reason for his bad defense. Logically, if what you said was true, wouldn't improved conditioning result in a big defensive improvement?



Re read my reply, its obvious. I said conditioning will help him but it wont solve the bad habits he has picked. I was pretty damn clear there. Now answer me, why do you think his bad habits will go away?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sith said:


> who was that guy that wanted to send healthy curry+gordon to GWS for piterius, and zarko+ a pick last year? granted the bulls were horrible at the time wiht 2-13 record. i won't name names, u know who u r.
> 
> now why all the praises for curry? even when hes damaged good.



That was clearly before Gordon blew up. But I think GS was interested in Curry recently and certainly could have made us an offer of Pietrus and Zarko plus picks (they have 5 or 6 over the next 3 years) for Curry. 

I have always liked Curry. I think I made that call, as well as Pietrus and Murphy for a healthy Curry, because I was resigned to the fact that Pax didnt want him here. Is there something wrong with that?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

bullsville said:


> Really? I still haven't seen you own up to the "mistake" that Sweets was the 4th big man on the Knicks last season. He was 3rd in minutes before the trade, and 3rd in minutes (1 min less than #2) and the starter after the trade.
> 
> And I have asked 2 or 3 times in different threads, why do you keep saying that Sweets put up his stats in "garbage time" last season while praising Eddy for a stat that he put up in "garbage time" for a Bulls team that won less games (30) than the Knicks won last season? Why does Sweets gets bashed for "garbage time" production while Eddy gets praised for "garbage time" production?


I said I misread the stats sheriff. My mistake.

Currys garbage time stats dwarf Sweetneys garbage time stats. But youll come up with something that proves Sweetney is the far better player.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> Re read my reply, its obvious. I said conditioning will help him but it wont solve the bad habits he has picked. I was pretty damn clear there. Now answer me, why do you think his bad habits will go away?


I don't want to get into slap fight here, but are you backtracking from your statement that conditioning was a big reason for his poor defense? That's fine, but lets just be clear with regard to what we say and what we mean.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> I don't want to get into slap fight here, but are you backtracking from your statement that conditioning was a big reason for his poor defense? That's fine, but lets just be clear with regard to what we say and what we mean.



No, I said conditioning was a big reason for his poor defense. Your right, I said it and still think it. But does being in condition fix the bad habits that he has picked up over 2 years of being in terrible condition? You still havent answered that? Does conditioning suddenly make you 2 inches taller? Conditioning certainly was a big part of his bad D. But he is bad fundamentally as well. Have you actually sat down and watched a full knicks game, not against the Bulls, or a couple of games over a few weeks? Now answer that


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> I said I misread the stats sheriff. My mistake.


So Sweets was actually the #3 big man on the Knicks last season, and he was "#2A or #2B" after the trade. That changes a lot of your argument, it seems, when you kept insisting that Sweets couldn't possibly be any good or he would have been more than the #4 big man on the Knicks last season. That he couldn't get minutes ahead of Mo Taylor, when he actually did.

You made that point at least 10 times, so I assumed it was a big part of your argument against Sweets. It seems like a reasonable assumption on my part.

That's all.



> Currys garbage time stats dwarf Sweetneys garbage time stats. But youll come up with something that proves Sweetney is the far better player.


:rofl:

Garbage time is garbage time is garbage time, if Sweets' garbage stats are meaningless so are Eddy's. Just because the stats are larger, it doesn't make them any more meaningful since they occured in garbage time.

And unlike you trying to prove that Sweets just flat-out sucks, I have no interest in proving that Sweets is a better player than Curry. If you bothered reading my posts, I have said all along that I don't expect Sweets to be the post scorer that Eddy was, but I see no reason why he won't continue to be a better rebounder than who turns the ball over less and assists more.

You don't expect Eddy to rebound? I don't expect Sweets to lead the Bulls in scoring.

After all, he and Eddy are the same age (6 weeks apart), it's a safe assumption that they have the same amount of room to improve.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

rlucas I have a question, how many Knicks games did you watch last season?


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

I only watched a handfull of Knicks games last season.

He may very well have bad fundementals on defense, but is that all that uncommon for a young player? The fact that he is young *and *overweight means that he has the opportunity to improve more than someone who is just young *or *overweight.

I'm not suggesting that Sweetney is or will ever be better than Curry. It seems like this board has gotten to the point where extremes dominate. The opinion that Sweetney is no better than Baxter is the other side of the Sweetney = Curry extreme and this seems to be the extreme that you and others are going to great lengths to try to propagate.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

bullsville said:


> So Sweets was actually the #3 big man on the Knicks last season, and he was "#2A or #2B" after the trade. That changes a lot of your argument, it seems, when you kept insisting that Sweets couldn't possibly be any good or he would have been more than the #4 big man on the Knicks last season. That he couldn't get minutes ahead of Mo Taylor, when he actually did.
> 
> You made that point at least 10 times, so I assumed it was a big part of your argument against Sweets. It seems like a reasonable assumption on my part.
> 
> ...



In garbage time, Curry averaged atleast in the high 20s in minutes for a team who needed him. I think they finished the year 9-11 with him in their. When the Knicks needed Sweetney in garbage time, he averaged low 20s and I dont believe there record was any better. And he still couldnt crack alot of minutes. And your totally not counting how many minutes Tim played at the 4 either. 

Again, now I am going to turn the tables on you cause I have asked it outloud 20 times but since your so much smarter then everyone else youll enlighten me. If Sweetney were so good, why could he only get 19.6mpg for the Knicks with guys like Jerome Williams to compete with, and Malik Rose, Taylor and an out of position Tim Thomas (who played alot of 4 last year that your not counting, but you wouldnt know that since you dont actually watch the Knicks)? Also, knowing that, I would presume that we can agree that Chandler, hopefully Davis, Songailia, Tim Thomas, Othella Harrington (who outplayed Sweetney by a bundle 2 short years ago) a little Luol Deng and Malik Rose are better then what the Knicks had there to compete with Sweetney, so what makes Bullsville so sure he will even play 20 mpg? Enlighten me.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

bullsville said:


> rlucas I have a question, how many Knicks games did you watch last season?



Considering I live half the year in NY, about 50. Which is about 47 more then you I suspect.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> No, I said conditioning was a big reason for his poor defense. Your right, I said it and still think it. But does being in condition fix the bad habits that he has picked up over 2 years of being in terrible condition? You still havent answered that? Does conditioning suddenly make you 2 inches taller? Conditioning certainly was a big part of his bad D. But he is bad fundamentally as well. Have you actually sat down and watched a full knicks game, not against the Bulls, or a couple of games over a few weeks? Now answer that


I have no clue about what kind of shape Sweetney's in right now. I would guess not great. I'm also not sure what his potential is defensively.

That said, there's been a lot of talk about how Larry Brown is going to turn the Knicks into a hard nosed defensive team in a couple weeks of training camp. Given that logic, I don't see why Skiles couldn't have something of the same impact on a willing Michael Sweetney in our camp. If Sweetney gets in shape and Skiles drills him on positioning/technique etc I would expect to see some improvement.

Also, I do not mean to compare the track records of Larry Brown and Scott Skiles. However my impression has been that Skiles can get a team to start d'ing up pretty quickly. Has Sweetney been a good defender in the league thus far? No. But there's room for improvement - I do think that Skiles and some conditioning can make a difference. How big? I'm not sure. But let's not bury Sweets just yet.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> In garbage time, Curry averaged atleast in the high 20s in minutes for a team who needed him. I think they finished the year 9-11 with him in their. When the Knicks needed Sweetney in garbage time, he averaged low 20s and I dont believe there record was any better. And he still couldnt crack alot of minutes. And your totally not counting how many minutes Tim played at the 4 either.
> 
> Again, now I am going to turn the tables on you cause I have asked it outloud 20 times but since your so much smarter then everyone else youll enlighten me. If Sweetney were so good, why could he only get 19.6mpg for the Knicks with guys like Jerome Williams to compete with, and Malik Rose, Taylor and an out of position Tim Thomas (who played alot of 4 last year that your not counting, but you wouldnt know that since you dont actually watch the Knicks)? Also, knowing that, I would presume that we can agree that Chandler, hopefully Davis, Songailia, Tim Thomas, Othella Harrington (who outplayed Sweetney by a bundle 2 short years ago) a little Luol Deng and Malik Rose are better then what the Knicks had there to compete with Sweetney, so what makes Bullsville so sure he will even play 20 mpg? Enlighten me.


Your point is based on the implicit assumption that all coaches always do the rational thing. If that was the case, there would never be a bad coach.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> I only watched a handfull of Knicks games last season.
> 
> He may very well have bad fundementals on defense, but is that all that uncommon for a young player? The fact that he is young *and *overweight means that he has the opportunity to improve more than someone who is just young *or *overweight.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that Sweetney is or will ever be better than Curry. It seems like this board has gotten to the point where extremes dominate. The opinion that Sweetney is no better than Baxter is the other side of the Sweetney = Curry extreme and this seems to be the extreme that you and others are going to great lengths to try to propagate.


His production last year, defensively,was really bad TD. I mean real bad. You cant bash Curry for bad defense and then applaud Michael Sweetney simply because he is a Bull (not saying you are but others are). Thats hypocritical to the 10th degree. Curry is a far better defender then Sweetney and that says something since Curry is no stopper. People just blindly support players cause they are in Chicago without actually knowing the facts. Lets remember, this trade was the trade that Pax turned down and called bizarre only a week before only to take it. It wasnt a move he wanted to make. But getting back to Sweets D, conditioning, as I said, will help. But will it solve fundamental bad habits over 2 years? I dont think so. Thats my opinion. And I also look at the big guy spots with Chandler, Davis hopefully, Harrington, Songailia, Allen, sometimes Tim Thomas, sometimes Luol Deng (who is over 6-9 now) and I compare that to what Sweets had to compete with in NY, where he only got 19.6 mpg, and wonder how we can expect him to get those minutes in Chicago.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

rlucas4257 said:


> Considering I live half the year in NY, about 50. Which is about 47 more then you I suspect.



now i get it, so u r really a knicks fan, ur just mad that u only got back a damaged good curry for a young talent like sweetney+others. whats better way to let out of ur frustrations? none other than bashing the young and talnted sweetney (possibly one of the top3 post players in the NBA right now).
if it makes u feel better, go ahead and bash sweetney more.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Sith said:


> now i get it, so u r really a knicks fan, ur just mad that u only got back a damaged good curry for a young talent like sweetney+others. whats better way to let out of ur frustrations? none other than bashing the young and talnted sweetney (possibly one of the top3 post players in the NBA right now).
> if it makes u feel better, go ahead and bash sweetney more.


Hey come on now...Rlucas is definitley a Bulls fan wherever he happens to be geographically and he has the posts to back it up. Lets not get personal here...we are ALL Bulls fans except the occassional visitor.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

ace20004u said:


> Hey come on now...Rlucas is definitley a Bulls fan wherever he happens to be geographically and he has the posts to back it up. Lets not get personal here...we are ALL Bulls fans except the occassional visitor.


lol i was just kidding...


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> Your point is based on the implicit assumption that all coaches always do the rational thing. If that was the case, there would never be a bad coach.



Coaches are not in the business of getting fired. And NY is not a town that would allow you to half *** it either. There is no such thing as rebuilding in NYC. And the NYers on the board will all back me on saying that. Lenny Wilkens has been around a long time. If he thought Sweetney were special, Sweetney wouldnt only start, he would play 30 mpg. Wilkens obviously felt far more comfortable with other players, players who are basically considered garbage league wide. Herb Williams had a chance to be a head coach. Not only do I not think he would waste his chance but he was also the big mans coach for the Knicks. He didnt think enough of Sweetney to play him 30 minutes a night to save his job and to give him another chance. He played him, as Bullsville points out, the 3 most minutes of the bigs, without taking into account that Thomas played more with some of those minutes at the 4 as well. Now I dont claim to know more then an NBA coach. But clearly the vast majority of Bulls fans are saying Sweetney will be a factor for us and their reason is? Cause the Knicks coaches didnt know what they were doing? I mean, 2 coaches and a GM got it wrong? Are we that sure of ourselves? Thats my opinion.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Bullsville, enlighten me please.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> In garbage time, Curry averaged atleast in the high 20s in minutes for a team who needed him. I think they finished the year 9-11 with him in their. When the Knicks needed Sweetney in garbage time, he averaged low 20s and I dont believe there record was any better. And he still couldnt crack alot of minutes. *And your totally not counting how many minutes Tim played at the 4 either*.
> 
> Again, now I am going to turn the tables on you cause I have asked it outloud 20 times but since your so much smarter then everyone else youll enlighten me. If Sweetney were so good, why could he only get 19.6mpg for the Knicks with guys like Jerome Williams to compete with, and Malik Rose, Taylor *and an out of position Tim Thomas (who played alot of 4 last year that your not counting, but you wouldnt know that since you dont actually watch the Knicks)?* Also, knowing that, I would presume that we can agree that Chandler, hopefully Davis, Songailia, Tim Thomas, Othella Harrington (who outplayed Sweetney by a bundle 2 short years ago) a little Luol Deng and Malik Rose are better then what the Knicks had there to compete with Sweetney, so what makes Bullsville so sure he will even play 20 mpg? Enlighten me.


See, this kind of crap is what I am talking about. You are so damned cocky for someone whose FACTS are so often WRONG.

Tim Thomas played *3 freaking per cent* of the Knicks PF minutes last season. 48 minutes per game at PF times 3 per cent equals 1.44 minutes per game that Tim Thomas spent at PF for the Knicks last season. That's A LOT of PF? We must have blatantly different definitions of A LOT?

Did YOU watch the Knicks last season?

It's basic 3rd grade math, add up the minutes that K Thomas and Nazr and Sweets and Rose and Mo Taylor and JYD played at the 4/5 position for the Knicks last season and there are hardly any minutes left that Thomas even could have played PF.

Watch YOUR tone! (To quote you)

Or do you have more false claims to make? It's impossible for me to respond to a post based in fantasy (the fantasy that Thomas played A LOT of PF for the Knicks, when he barely played any).

As for the other guys, Sweets played more than ALL of them except Rose, who got one more minute than Sweets, and only a few more minutes than he was getting for the World Champs before the trade.

As to why Lenny and Herb didn't play him more? I have no guess even, other than to point out that the Knicks have had 4 straight losing seasons despite having tons of individual talent, so obviously their coaching staff and front office are pretty clueless.

I've seen your "are the Knicks in the business of losing" posts, well over the last 4 years they are. If anything, maybe they should have played Sweets MORE, since playing him LESS led them to sub-.500 records? 

I believe in the clean slate, I don't care how much PT Sweets (or Thomas, or Othella) got with a joke of an organization like the Knicks.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> His production last year, defensively,was really bad TD. I mean real bad. You cant bash Curry for bad defense and then applaud Michael Sweetney simply because he is a Bull (not saying you are but others are). Thats hypocritical to the 10th degree. Curry is a far better defender then Sweetney and that says something since Curry is no stopper. People just blindly support players cause they are in Chicago without actually knowing the facts. Lets remember, this trade was the trade that Pax turned down and called bizarre only a week before only to take it. It wasnt a move he wanted to make. But getting back to Sweets D, conditioning, as I said, will help. But will it solve fundamental bad habits over 2 years? I dont think so. Thats my opinion. And I also look at the big guy spots with Chandler, Davis hopefully, Harrington, Songailia, Allen, sometimes Tim Thomas, sometimes Luol Deng (who is over 6-9 now) and I compare that to what Sweets had to compete with in NY, where he only got 19.6 mpg, and wonder how we can expect him to get those minutes in Chicago.


I don't expect Sweetney to evolve into a 35MPG complete player. My hope is that we can utilize the strengths of Songaila, Sweetney and Thomas. And have a rotation that's pretty effective at the 4, and dictated by matchups.

I'm curious RLucas, how do you feel about Sweetney as opposed to Othella Harrington? Othella seems overmatched by big physical 4's but gets into position and draws charges. He's not gifted with size or quickness. Is there no hope for Sweetney to develop into this kind of a defender? I like O but the one thing that maddens me about his game is his propensity to face up from 10 feet and pump fake until he gets fouled or scores. It's pretty effective but it kind of bogs down the offense. It's my hope that Sweetney can provide servicable D a la Othella, while having a better back to the basket game that facilitates more ball movement/kick outs in the half court set...


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> Hey come on now...Rlucas is definitley a Bulls fan wherever he happens to be geographically and he has the posts to back it up. Lets not get personal here...we are ALL Bulls fans except the occassional visitor.



Thanks ace, alot of this has stepped over the line. Heck I admit I wrangled Patchwork for a terrible comparison but acknowledge that. Now take a look at some of the stuff directed at me? You dont toe the company line in these parts and you get it.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> His production last year, defensively,was really bad TD. I mean real bad. You cant bash Curry for bad defense and then applaud Michael Sweetney simply because he is a Bull (not saying you are but others are). Thats hypocritical to the 10th degree. Curry is a far better defender then Sweetney and that says something since Curry is no stopper. People just blindly support players cause they are in Chicago without actually knowing the facts. Lets remember, this trade was the trade that Pax turned down and called bizarre only a week before only to take it. It wasnt a move he wanted to make. But getting back to Sweets D, conditioning, as I said, will help. But will it solve fundamental bad habits over 2 years? I dont think so. Thats my opinion. And I also look at the big guy spots with Chandler, Davis hopefully, Harrington, Songailia, Allen, sometimes Tim Thomas, sometimes Luol Deng (who is over 6-9 now) and I compare that to what Sweets had to compete with in NY, where he only got 19.6 mpg, and wonder how we can expect him to get those minutes in Chicago.


I agree that Curry is the better defender and at a more valuable position. However, Sweetney does not have to be as good as Curry to contribute. I think he will get his strengths almost perfectly fills a void amoung our big men: he scores down low and he rebounds better than anyone outside of Tyson. Those strengths combined with the Bulls voids should afford him an opportunity to become an important contributer for the Bulls.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> Considering I live half the year in NY, about 50. Which is about 47 more then you I suspect.


So you watched 50 Knicks games last season, yet you didn't know that Sweets played more than Mo Taylor? Sweets played almost 23 minutes to Mo's 17, maybe you weren't paying that much attention to the fact that Sweets played 25% more minutes than Mo?

And you claim that Thomas played a lot of PF, when he only played 3% of the Knicks PF minutes, I guess you weren't paying much attention then, either?

And actually, I watched probably 10 Knicks games, all 4 vs the Bulls plus I saw several different quarters and halfs of games, but I was paying attention to Jamal most of the time which is why I have given no opinion of Sweets' game other than looking at his stats.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

jbulls said:


> I don't expect Sweetney to evolve into a 35MPG complete player. My hope is that we can utilize the strengths of Songaila, Sweetney and Thomas. And have a rotation that's pretty effective at the 4, and dictated by matchups.
> 
> I'm curious RLucas, how do you feel about Sweetney as opposed to Othella Harrington? Othella seems overmatched by big physical 4's but gets into position and draws charges. He's not gifted with size or quickness. Is there no hope for Sweetney to develop into this kind of a defender? I like O but the one thing that maddens me about his game is his propensity to face up from 10 feet and pump fake until he gets fouled or scores. It's pretty effective but it kind of bogs down the offense. It's my hope that Sweetney can provide servicable D a la Othella, while having a better back to the basket game that facilitates more ball movement/kick outs in the half court set...



JB, it will be interesting with O. He has such an unorthodox post game that I openly admitted that his success might have come from lack of scouting or something. But its effective. His game is to pump pump pump and as soon you stretch your arms out he shoots underneath you trying to draw contact, if not, he is able to drive to the middle and get a little J. How does he compare to Sweetney? I think he is clearly a better player though do agree with you that he bogs things down. The guy I am most excited about at that spot is Songaila. He can stretch the floor, plays fluid, and probably has learned a thing or 2 about passing from the perimeter and post from Webber and Divac.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas, you should understand the purpose of comparisons. I've seen you compare Pietrus to Ron Artest or Dennis Rodman when Pietrus will never be a fourth of the players those guys are. The purpose of a comparison is to widen the perspective of a players abilities by comparing those abilities to well known players of the past. If I say he is a poor mans McHale when it comes to post moves, you should understand that means that he has good footwork, a ton of moves, and knows how to get the ball in the hoop. You shouldn't take it so literal like Sweetney is going to average 25 points next season. For future reference, please disregard any comparisons I make unless you can understand the purpose of it. I don't think anyone else but you had a problem understanding what I meant.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

bullsville said:


> So you watched 50 Knicks games last season, yet you didn't know that Sweets played more than Mo Taylor? Sweets played almost 23 minutes to Mo's 17, maybe you weren't paying that much attention to the fact that Sweets played 25% more minutes than Mo?
> 
> And you claim that Thomas played a lot of PF, when he only played 3% of the Knicks PF minutes, I guess you weren't paying much attention then, either?
> 
> And actually, I watched probably 10 Knicks games, all 4 vs the Bulls plus I saw several different quarters and halfs of games, but I was paying attention to Jamal most of the time which is why I have given no opinion of Sweets' game other than looking at his stats.



Thomas played 4 in small lineups for atleast a little bit every game. More so at the beginning of the year but did. 

Again, you can look at stats all day. But what do you actually know about Sweetney?


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> Thanks ace, alot of this has stepped over the line. Heck I admit I wrangled Patchwork for a terrible comparison but acknowledge that. *Now take a look at some of the stuff directed at me?* You dont toe the company line in these parts and you get it.


When you call people out with FACTS that turn out to not be true, what the hell do you expect?

Maybe if you were a little less certain of stuff that isn't true and more respecting of other people's opinions you wouldn't be getting stuff directed at you? 

You know, like how you called me out for ignoring the 1.5 minutes/game that Tim Thomas spent at PF for the Knicks last season?

It seems like a 2-way street to me.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> Coaches are not in the business of getting fired. And NY is not a town that would allow you to half *** it either. There is no such thing as rebuilding in NYC. And the NYers on the board will all back me on saying that. Lenny Wilkens has been around a long time. If he thought Sweetney were special, Sweetney wouldnt only start, he would play 30 mpg. Wilkens obviously felt far more comfortable with other players, players who are basically considered garbage league wide. Herb Williams had a chance to be a head coach. Not only do I not think he would waste his chance but he was also the big mans coach for the Knicks. He didnt think enough of Sweetney to play him 30 minutes a night to save his job and to give him another chance. He played him, as Bullsville points out, the 3 most minutes of the bigs, without taking into account that Thomas played more with some of those minutes at the 4 as well. Now I dont claim to know more then an NBA coach. But clearly the vast majority of Bulls fans are saying Sweetney will be a factor for us and their reason is? Cause the Knicks coaches didnt know what they were doing? I mean, 2 coaches and a GM got it wrong? Are we that sure of ourselves? Thats my opinion.


I don't think anyone is claiming Sweetney is "special" or that he was neccesarily a good player last year. But you, as someone who follows European basketball, should know that a 23 year old player can improve his weakness to the point where it no longer prohibits him from getting the minutes to showcase his strengths. 

Do you deny that Sweetney has strengths or do you think that his weaknesses are too much for him to overcome?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> rlucas, you should understand the purpose of comparisons. I've seen you compare Pietrus to Ron Artest or Dennis Rodman when Pietrus will never be a fourth of the players those guys are. The purpose of a comparison is to widen the perspective of a players abilities by comparing those abilities to well known players of the past. If I say he is a poor mans McHale when it comes to post moves, you should understand that means that he has good footwork, a ton of moves, and knows how to get the ball in the hoop. You shouldn't take it so literal like Sweetney is going to average 25 points next season. For future reference, please disregard any comparisons I make unless you can understand the purpose of it. I don't think anyone else but you had a problem understanding what I meant.



A couple of others have mentioned it patch. You cant make a comparison like that based on a clip. Thats my beef with you. Its not personal. But I am telling you, if you watched the Knicks play alot you wouldnt make that comparison. I think the comparison is made because as Bulls fans we have to feel that we are getting something back for the lost promise of Curry. And guys will say anything to put a positive spin on it. If someone started a thread saying Sweetney is better at setting picks then Curry I wouldnt even post in it. Cause it might be true. But to say he has a better back to the basket game based on a clip then a guy who averages 7 more ppg, is bigger, more atheletic and played for a better team is just over the top. And to throw the McHale thing in there is just too much. Like I said, if others made the comparison, I am not even sure I would have mentioned it. But like I have said atleast 3 times before, cause it was you, a good poster, who I thought just blindly rubber stamped this deal with such a ludicrous comparison, I felt I had to call you out on it.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> Thomas played 4 in small lineups for atleast a little bit every game. More so at the beginning of the year but did.


Yeah, about 1.5 minutes per game, which is a hell of a long way from playing "A LOT of PF", which was your claim.



> Again, you can look at stats all day. But what do you actually know about Sweetney?


I know very little about Sweetney. I know what I've read, that he is a good low-post scorer with a lot of different moves, that he is not a good defender, and that he is a good rebounder.

I didn't watch the MixTape, but if it shows Sweetney making several different moves, doesn't it stand to reason that Sweets actually has these moves? That doesn't mean he will be using them to score 20 points a night, but it doesn't mean that the potential isn't there.

What else have I claimed to know about him?


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> JB, it will be interesting with O. He has such an unorthodox post game that I openly admitted that his success might have come from lack of scouting or something. But its effective. His game is to pump pump pump and as soon you stretch your arms out he shoots underneath you trying to draw contact, if not, he is able to drive to the middle and get a little J. How does he compare to Sweetney? I think he is clearly a better player though do agree with you that he bogs things down. The guy I am most excited about at that spot is Songaila. He can stretch the floor, plays fluid, and probably has learned a thing or 2 about passing from the perimeter and post from Webber and Divac.


I agree that Songaila is the guy to get excited about. I live in LA and see my share of Kings games. He's always been one of my favorite role players. I'm very excited to see what he can do in a Bulls uni. 53% shooting from the floor and the same AST/TO ratio (3/2) as Chris Webber is nothing to sneeze at.

I think watching Harrington and Sweetney this year is going to be really interesting because Harrington is something of a Skiles favorite, and I can't imagine having those two on the floor at the same time.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> I don't think anyone is claiming Sweetney is "special" or that he was neccesarily a good player last year. But you, as someone who follows European basketball, should know that a 23 year old player can improve his weakness to the point where it no longer prohibits him from getting the minutes to showcase his strengths.
> 
> Do you deny that Sweetney has strengths or do you think that his weaknesses are too much for him to overcome?



In my view of Sweetney, I think he can be a nice offensive rebounder, set some decent screens and be a much better Lonny Baxter, a comparison I agreed with. I think if he gets into better shape he will certainly improve his D from terrible to maybe mediocre. His bad habits have been accumulated over time so I dont think he will ever really be good there. Plus he is short. Now having said all that, I see a club in Chicago who has a ton of bodies at those big spots so I dont see 20 mpg for him in Chicago. He just isnt good enough. And if he doesnt get consistent minutes, than I dont see how he can be in condition to defend. So the problem compounds. Will he be given a chance? Probably. But he is sort of in the same boat as Frank Williams. Williams wasnt in condition, came to a team with alot of competition after not making it in NY when they had a spot for him, and was gone in a year. Now Sweetney wont be gone in a year, but that might be more a function of being the 9th pick vs the 25th pick.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> A couple of others have mentioned it patch. You cant make a comparison like that based on a clip. Thats my beef with you. Its not personal. But I am telling you, if you watched the Knicks play alot you wouldnt make that comparison. I think the comparison is made because as Bulls fans we have to feel that we are getting something back for the lost promise of Curry. And guys will say anything to put a positive spin on it. If someone started a thread saying Sweetney is better at setting picks then Curry I wouldnt even post in it. Cause it might be true. But to say he has a better back to the basket game based on a clip then a guy who averages 7 more ppg, is bigger, more atheletic and played for a better team is just over the top. And to throw the McHale thing in there is just too much. Like I said, if others made the comparison, I am not even sure I would have mentioned it. But like I have said atleast 3 times before, cause it was you, a good poster, who I thought just blindly rubber stamped this deal with such a ludicrous comparison, I felt I had to call you out on it.


I still feel like you greatly overrate Curry's back to the basket game. If you want to compare the mixtapes, I watched the Sweetney one after I watched the Curry one, look at the vastly different ways they score. Curry scores on pick and rolls, seals, lobs, fast breaks, etc. He rarely scores in the halfcourt getting the ball dumped to him. Even if you feel like that video doesn't represent Sweetney well, the video of Curry represents his game perfectly, and he rarely is getting the ball on the block and creating. 

Sweetney has great post game. Better than Curry without any doubt. Curry has little to no post game, most of his 16 points per game is set up by others, and the stats back that up.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

And yeah, Songaila is better than Sweetney. He is really underrated, he'll be a key part of the team next season.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> And yeah, Songaila is better than Sweetney. He is really underrated, he'll be a key part of the team next season.



100% agree Patchwork. I see it like this

Chandler and Davis in the middle
Songailia, Harrington and Sweetney at the 4, in that order.

Tim Thomas plays a little bit between the 4 and the 2 depending on where Skiles wants to use him.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Sweetney and Harrington are scorers, Songaila does dirty work roleplayer type stuff. I think that's a good enough power forward rotation for what is easily our worst position. Then if we get Davis back, we're in REALLY good shape.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Sweetney and Harrington are scorers, Songaila does dirty work roleplayer type stuff. I think that's a good enough power forward rotation for what is easily our worst position. Then if we get Davis back, we're in REALLY good shape.


if Chandler can stay healthy and on the court, itll be good. I dont see minutes for Sweetney because I think we have to take into account that we have 3 really good SFs. 2 of those SFs can sneak minutes in at the 4 against small lineups. Deng is nearly 6-10 I read and Thomas is a little over 6-10. I think the Bulls would play either at the 4 with Noc at the 3 to not lose the physical aspect of the game. Itll be interesting to see if Harrington can continue his production. And like I said, I agree on Songaila. He has the face up game, range and passing from the big man spot that we havent had in a long time (Corzine? thats how far back?)


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## KwaZulu (Jul 7, 2003)

If Songalia is a better player than Sweetney, then it seems we could trade with the Hawks. We could offer Sweetney, Pike, and Jermain Jackson for Al Harrington. Hawks get a future PF plus 2 contracts coming off the books after the season. Bulls get another PF to complement Songalia.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> I wouldn't confuse legitimate concerns about Sweetney's conditioning and propensity to foul with "undervaluing" him.
> 
> If there were any inkling at all that Sweetney could comfortably play 30 minutes a game for an 82 game season, I'd feel much better about the Bulls' prospects this year. But I think that the likelihood of Sweetney playing 30 minutes a game is very, very small.


You don't think Skiles can get him into shape and at least competent in the team defensive scheme as he did with Curry last year 

It was probably close too Christmas when Eddy's aerobic conditioning was up to snuff ( as I recall ) and when the smoke and mirror show of his diet pills and his sleekness subsided to reveal the truth

Eddy became better defensively into January/February

Is there some ailment /inability that will prohibit Mike Sweetney responding to Coach Skiles's conditioninig regimen that would render it unreasonable for us to expect that this player may indeed end up playing 30 minutes a night , and be a true factor in our win /loss by Christmas/New Year's ?

I do think Sweetney has a better feel for the game and I do think he's coachable . 

I believe the whip will be cracked ..he'll respond and it will take him at least 2 - 3 months to get into the type of game/aerobic shape he needs to be in 

10 pounds will make a difference to his speed and his capacity to work within team defensive schemes to at least a competent level as was the stage that Eddy Curry got to

I think the big difference between Eddy Curry and Mike Sweetney defensively ( in the capacity to be a competent defender ) is that whilst Sweetney needs greater levels of aerobic fitness and needs to tune up some ... to me he seems more willing and more adept at using his body to seal off 

Sure Eddy is more athletic , has bigger ups and is 3 inches taller. 

But when your fighting on the blocks .. particularly off the ball when your jostling for position or throwing screens ... what I believe is very underrated is a guy's leg strength and centre of gravity 

Its like football...if a guy is not particularly stong through the legs or through the trunk its easier to knock him off his mark. Kind of like really tall, lithe guys in the front row in Rugby..or linemen on the scrimmage in the NFL.. are easier to push off the mark as opposed to guys who are more squat and have genuine core strength that can hold their mark tougher.

I think the latter is where Sweetney can find strength as a defender. Not that he is there yet, but this is what he has to use and work in given the basic structure of his body shape.

He'll never play above the rim and sail' swat..but so what . He can still be very effective by working on his core strength through the trunk and the legs to bustle taller opponents who may not be as strong .


Don't forget the guy also has a 7' wingspan

I understand people are still pissed and fall into a doubting Thomas category and need for the proof to be in the pudding which is fair enough 

But ..just my opinion.. I can see it / sense it with this guy and I really think he's going to be more than a pleasant surprise with some work which I believe he will respond strongly to - because , A) He seems to have that temprement and B) 4 year college players understand system/pecking order and in most cases are usually coachable at the next level as they have that maturity gained from a structured program

Its not that I'm desperate to believe it ..I can just see it coming together

At best I see him physically and stylistically as one or two cuts below Elton Brand 

And if we can get an 80% version of Elton Brand .then hey that's not a bad thing IMO 

That's what I expect out of him


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

And yes.. I would have traded Eddy Curry for Elton Brand - even before all the BS with the heart

So if we get 'an Elton" at 80% when he's worked into our system properly + TT and the draft picks..I think it will prove to be an awesome trade in the circumstances


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

I tend to agree that Skiles has a better chance of getting Sweetney into game shape than any other coach he's had in the NBA. I also agree that if Sweetney is in shape and can therefore stay away from foul trouble and horrid defense, he could be a solid rebounder and low-post scorer for us. 

That said, I don't think he'll be so good that we will feel set at the position. I think he's the type of player who could be a key part of a nice big man rotation. We still need one more quality big, IMO.

If we could get Magloire or Nene or someone of that ilk to add to Tyson, Sweetney and Songalia, I think we'd have a very talented and well balanced frontcourt. We need more size.


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## Deke (Jul 27, 2005)

TripleDouble said:


> I tend to agree that Skiles has a better chance of getting Sweetney into game shape than any other coach he's had in the NBA. I also agree that if Sweetney is in shape and can therefore stay away from foul trouble and horrid defense, he could be a solid rebounder and low-post scorer for us.
> 
> That said, I don't think he'll be so good that we will feel set at the position. I think he's the type of player who could be a key part of a nice big man rotation. We still need one more quality big, IMO.
> 
> If we could get Magloire or Nene or someone of that ilk to add to Tyson, Sweetney and Songalia, I think we'd have a very talented and well balanced frontcourt. We need more size.


what we need is mutombo


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Sweetney will clearly see a lot of time on the court, why? Well, he is basically our only post threat....


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