# If Kobe comes here would you stop watching the Bulls?



## anorexorcist (Aug 3, 2005)

Now that the moment seems to be more "at hand" than ever based on the apparent breakdown of talks on the BG extension and things going from bad to worse in LA, are there any of us so vehemently opposed to Kobe coming here that would cause us to stop watching the Bulls altogether and continue monitoring Ben's and whoever else's progress except in LA?

I never thought I'd do this, but now that this thing is looking like a reality I'm seriously considering it. This has got me feeling really upset, I never thought Kobe would actually end up coming here. It changes the whole dynamic of the team into a circus. It was different in the dynasty era because Jordan was Jordan. This is not Jordan, this is a guy who is willing to have his way even at the cost of playing worse.


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

No, I would try to watch even more. A little off topic, but I think Pax is trying to sign Deng, so the Lakers cannot ask for him. They will have to settle for Gordon and fillers.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

We're Bulls fans. We're not going to stop watching the Bulls because the leagues best player comes here.

This is, IMHO, a non-starter.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

I survived John Starks in a Bulls Uni, anything is palatable after that.


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

PD said:


> No, I would try to watch even more.


co-sign


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## Fred (Sep 18, 2007)

ha i watched the bulls through the crappy years after the dynasty and bought season tix chandler/curry's second year when they still stucked. No way am I going to stop watching them now.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

No, but it would seriously impair my enjoyment of the team. I'd probably be hoping for Kobe to fail, so he opts out in two years and leaves, so we can rebuild if we make the trade.

Lakers have 24 national tv games (ESPN/ABC/TNT). I think I'd definitely watch Gordon play there. He is the heart and soul of the post-Jordan Bulls, and the best post-Jordan Bull. Trading for Kobe will be Paxson's downfall as a GM...while Mitch Kupchak will some how come out looking like a genius.


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## Bullsky (Jun 11, 2006)

I would focus more in college basketball than I do now. I'm not sure if I'd quit following the team, but I wouldn't watch a decent number of games.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Yeah, and I guess u won't be watching the Bulls in the finals either huh? Cause it WILL happen with Kobe here.

Detriot couldn't stop us, NJ couldn't stop us, Cleveland couldn't stop us..the ONLY team that would have a chance is Boston and with Kobe, I have a hard time believing they could stop us either.

lol @ hoping he'd opt out in two years..

that's silly

we're probably going ot be trading 3 young talents only to have Kobe for 2 years? to rebuild with WHAT?! lol c'mon now man


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

No, but I would put my hand over the screen to cover Kobe wearing a Bulls jersey...


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## Flip (Oct 23, 2006)

I find all the talks about Kobe's character quite interesting. I sometimes wonder if things would be different today had he been in a situation more similar to Jordan's. What I mean is, what if Kobe had not been drafted into a team with one of the leagues premier superstars at center? Instead, have a team built around him that would compliment his game. How would Jordan have reacted to taking a backseat to a guy like Shaq? While Jordan was never implicated in anything like sexual assault during his tenure, we know he was hardly a model citizen.I also get the feeling that Michael was no one's favorite teammate when seeing old interview footage. Why is one revered and the other shunned? We could put up with questionable character guys like Pippen and Rodman but not Kobe? If Kobe came to Chicago and won three in a row, would people's perception of him change? While there was a time I disliked Bryant, I realize I would probably dislike over half the league if I knew what kind of people they were. I say, bring him here and bask in the glory of championships. The Bulls could rival Celtic history by the time Kobe's career is over.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

I wouldn't stop watching, but I wouldn't watch as much, and I wouldn't care as much about the team.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

I would watch just as much but I think any joy derived from winning a championship would be lessened because of Kobe (not because I dislike him, but because of the way we would get him).


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Miles Davis was said to beat women. I still listen to his music. FWIW, I still listen to the Jackson 5, too, despite Michael's, ahem, "issues." 

Yes, it will be less fun for me to pull for Kobe than some other guys, but I'd still enjoy watching him play. I'd also still be rooting hard for the remaining guys on the team who I really like. So, no, Kobe's presence isn't going to make me stop watching Bulls basketball.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Flip said:


> I find all the talks about Kobe's character quite interesting. I sometimes wonder if things would be different today had he been in a situation more similar to Jordan's. What I mean is, what if Kobe had not been drafted into a team with one of the leagues premier superstars at center? Instead, have a team built around him that would compliment his game. How would Jordan have reacted to taking a backseat to a guy like Shaq? While Jordan was never implicated in anything like sexual assault during his tenure, we know he was hardly a model citizen.I also get the feeling that Michael was no one's favorite teammate when seeing old interview footage. Why is one revered and the other shunned? We could put up with questionable character guys like Pippen and Rodman but not Kobe? If Kobe came to Chicago and won three in a row, would people's perception of him change? While there was a time I disliked Bryant, I realize I would probably dislike over half the league if I knew what kind of people they were. I say, bring him here and bask in the glory of championships. The Bulls could rival Celtic history by the time Kobe's career is over.


I think alot of Kobe fans are younger and didn't actually watch MJ and the development of the Bulls from the late 1980's to 1998. They didn't see how much different MJ carried himself on and off the court. MJ is an icon in the world rivaling the likes of Babe Ruth and Pele. Kobe has never been geniune and has spent his life trying to imitate MJ.

The truth is MJ didn't have to take a backseat to anybody. Championship teams were built around him. Mediocre first round playoff exit teams were built around Kobe. Those are the facts.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

I enjoyed the first threepeat team much, much more than the second. Part of this was having to endure the loathsome Rodman, but it was mainly so sweet to see a batch of young, mostly homegrown players mature and win a title. 

I don't like having to root for Ben Wallace as it is. To throw in another hated outsider, and one whose whole career, right down to his mannerisms at the free throw line, his gestures during postgame interviews, and the way in which he kibbitzes with refs and other players is an unapologetic imitation of Michael Jordan's . . . 

It'd be a real bitter pill to swallow. I wouldn't stop watching by any means, but a title won under those circumstances would be maybe 1/50th as satisfying as any of the first six.


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## Bullsky (Jun 11, 2006)

The ROY said:


> Yeah, and I guess u won't be watching the Bulls in the finals either huh? Cause it WILL happen with Kobe here.


So because Kobe comes, we automatically win a title? Hmm.

Last time I checked, Kobe can turn water into wine and if you touch his jersey, it doesn't heal the sick.

Some of you think Kobe is the be all and end all and thats scares me.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Bullsky said:


> So because Kobe comes, we automatically win a title? Hmm.
> 
> Last time I checked, Kobe can turn water into wine and if you touch his jersey, it doesn't heal the sick.
> 
> Some of you think Kobe is the be all and end all and thats scares me.


can u read? I said FINALS

In the east, with this team, yes KOBE can take you to the finals


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## Bullsky (Jun 11, 2006)

The ROY said:


> can u read? I said FINALS
> 
> In the east, with this team, yes KOBE can take you to the finals


So, now our goal is to just get to the Eastern Conference Finals? My, how our expectations have changed.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

The ROY said:


> can u read? I said FINALS
> 
> In the east, with this team, yes KOBE can take you to the finals


I think if we trade alot of players for Kobe the new expectation for this team would be a playoff series win, since this something a Kobe led team has never accomplished.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Bullsky said:


> So, now our goal is to just get to the Eastern Conference Finals? My, how our expectations have changed.


are u just trying to be funny man?

obviously we all know what our GOAL is and yes, Kobe puts you closer to that than the current make-up of players we have, PERIOD.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

lougehrig said:


> I think if we trade alot of players for Kobe the new expectation for this team would be a playoff series win, since this something a Kobe led team has never accomplished.


c'mon man, please..

It was litterally him vs. the Phoenix Suns for two straight seasons.

we all know damn well we'd cruise past MOST teams in the east in a playoff series, hell KOBE or not at this point.


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## Bullsky (Jun 11, 2006)

The ROY said:


> are u just trying to be funny man?
> 
> obviously we all know what our GOAL is and yes, Kobe puts you closer to that than the current make-up of players we have, PERIOD.


When you complete a trade like the one proposed now, your goals should be big. Championship big. I don't think Kobe can lead us to a championship. Actually, I know he can't.

I have much more confidence in our roster than I do in Kobe. Again, Kobe isn't god.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Bullsky said:


> When you complete a trade like the one proposed now, your goals should be big. Championship big. I don't think Kobe can lead us to a championship. Actually, I know he can't.
> 
> I have much more confidence in our roster than I do in Kobe. Again, Kobe isn't god.


and what is this 'proposed' trade? cause according to reports, the GOrdon/Noah/Thomas/Noc package was false.

So again, where is the proposed?

If Lebron can take the cavs to the Finals in the east, than so can Kobe. Let's not be SILLY now.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

Bullsky said:


> When you complete a trade like the one proposed now, your goals should be big. Championship big. I don't think Kobe can lead us to a championship. Actually, I know he can't.
> 
> I have much more confidence in our roster than I do in Kobe. Again, Kobe isn't god.


look at the parallels provided by history. what do almost all the recent former championship teams have? A guy who can get to the free throw line a ton. Kobe gets that respect from refs. None of our current guys do.

And to be honest, none of our main scorers are athletic enough to ever get those tons of calls.



for the 100th time, ok,yeah, this Bulls team could win a title if they emulate that recent Pistons championship team. But that great team, which put the T in team (as you seem to want), only took away one title.


You need the big star. If that causes you to defect to the airball-a-thon that is college basketball, so be it. But this is the way the NBA is now, and Paxson has a duty to try to put together a team that can best win in the NBA, in the _specific NBA _we currently have.

You need a finisher. The Bulls, as constituted, are great; when they play perfectly.



Kobe with a supporting cast can win when the team plays less than perfectly. You honestly think the Cavaliers won all those games last year as a team? You can say it's sad, but its reality.

The Bulls were a wayyyy better TEAM than the Cavs. doesn't matter at the end of the day, though, does it? it's noble; but thats about it.


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## Bullsky (Jun 11, 2006)

DengNabbit said:


> look at the parallels provided by history. what do almost all the recent former championship teams have? A guy who can get to the free throw line a ton. Kobe gets that respect from refs. None of our current guys do.
> 
> And to be honest, none of our main scorers are athletic enough to ever get those tons of calls.
> 
> ...


Call me crazy, but I don't want just an Eastern Conference title. I want to WIN the CHAMPIONSHIP. Kobe has yet to prove he can do that by himself. And if we trade a few of our prime players for him, he WILL be by HIMSELF.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

Bullsky said:


> Call me crazy, but I don't want just an Eastern Conference title. I want to WIN the CHAMPIONSHIP. Kobe has yet to prove he can do that by himself. And if we trade a few of our prime players for him, he WILL be by HIMSELF.


where am i setting my goals as ECF? I'm talking about the Cavs ability to rack up tons of wins in the regular season. But there's no question that Hinrich/Deng/Kobe/Smith/Wallace is a better team than the Cavs.

If Gordon/Tyrus are the principals, you do it. If Gordon/Tyrus/Nocioni have to be the principals, you do it. 

That is how valuable Kobe Bryant is. You gut the bench. If they want Deng, you figure out how you'll get by playing small in stretches. The fact that he gets to the line and frees up Deng or Gordon's high % perimeter shooting.... it is absolutely worth all that.



Right now, the Bulls have to get themselves open...and again, you dont address how our scorers just arent athletic enough to really do that. We have to play perfectly, run plays that don't break down.

But plays do break down. All the time, on every team. The guys with the most talent override all that, and get you 20 W's a year you don't deserve.



If you can do the trade and leave Hinrich, Wallace, and one of Deng or Gordon... you do it.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> The truth is MJ didn't have to take a backseat to anybody. Championship teams were built around him. Mediocre first round playoff exit teams were built around Kobe. Those are the facts.


jordan never had mediocre 1st round exit teams. he always won, even without talent around him.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Bullsky said:


> Call me crazy, but I don't want just an Eastern Conference title. I want to WIN the CHAMPIONSHIP. Kobe has yet to prove he can do that by himself. And if we trade a few of our prime players for him, he WILL be by HIMSELF.


kobe's not going to ok a trade that guts the team he's going to.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

kflo said:


> jordan never had mediocre 1st round exit teams. he always won, even without talent around him.


Jordan's teams didn't win a playoff series (or finish over .500 in the regular season, for that matter) until his fourth season.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

I might give it a chance, but I'd probably get disgusted watching that POS and find something else to do than watch the Kobe in Chicago show. I've been a fan for almost 20 years, even the bad years, so it'd be weird to stop but I might not be able to get over my disgust for Kobe. Scott May summed up my feelings over the years quite nicely. I liked the first 3 a lot better than the second 3 championships, because Rodman wasn't here for the 1st and I really liked Horace, and I liked Paxson better than Kerr too. I really do NOT like Benedict Wallace being a Bull either, and every day wish we still had Chandler instead. I think Chandler is better, PLUS I actually liked him.

I said during last season that I almost like watching this team better than the dynasty because it's better baskerball, and I don't just expect to win, so the losses are easier to stomache and the wins are more satisfying. If Kobe comes here, in all honesty I'll watch the news hoping for him to have a career ending injury or better yet get into a major accident (which I've been hoping for for years anyway, but I'll be wanting it even more so he'll finally leave my Bulls alone. I'm not joking either. I could tolerate Rodman, but this guy is 100% pure scum)


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

from my pov, this whole thread sounds like a lot of MAJOR overreacting. most sane internet posters don't believe kobe is god; that's really denigrating the intelligence of the board in general. 

what kobe does do is add a guy who constantly demands double teams, can play defense at an all-star level, AND *carry *the team when and if necessary. for as good as i personally believe the bulls are currently, 
(53-55 wins) they DON'T have that on the roster right now.

imo, this whole ordeal is centered around who the bulls must give up; it's really no more complicated than that (and yes, that is in the grander sense complicated, because LA wants the stars and the moon, and paxson's trying to give as little as possible, which i personally endorse).

i harbor no ill will toward all the perceptions about kobe, because at the end of the day, he wants to win at any and all costs. that's my personal belief, even if sometimes his words and actions don't portray him in the most likeable of lights. i suspect that all will be forgiven if he comes to the bulls and does as i expect; play his *** off to prove the detractors wrong, blend in to the "team" construct and play off (and with) the remaining bulls and *help* (not necessarily lead), the bulls get to the finals. once rodman was on the bulls i only cared about him getting 17-18 boards and playing hellish defense. i had no problem rooting for him whatsoever. phil, scottie and mj had to keep him in check; i doubt if anywhere close will need to happen if kobe comes on board. 

i believe this is paxson's wish/hope, bulls fans hope, and the EC's worst nightmare. a very good team that acquires a superstar on the cheap.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

If we trade Deng for Bryant, it's interesting. we're losing someone in town who appears to be one of the more positive people in sports, as in donating their time, effort and money.

With Bryant, we get a guy who is reportedly an *******.



Let me ask though; how important is this to us? Do we have to have athletes be humanitarians? I hate to say it, but as long as they don't take away from the team... I'm kind of OK with having a jerk on the team.

Now, if some of the world's business leaders and political leaders wanted to start behaving a little more like Luol Deng, then we might have some actual impact. I think athletes can set a good example, but I don't know how much importance I put on it. I honestly would rather have Kobe Bryant's basketball skill.


If JR Smith came here, he would undermine authority with no qualms. If Kobe came here, I could honestly see him getting down to business, and getting serious along with the guys we have here.


Sam Smith wrote an article about how the Bulls locker room is anathema to fun-having. I'm not sure this is a bad thing. I duno, just some thoughts.


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## BeZerker2008 (Jun 29, 2006)

I will watch to see if the Bulls continue the 'team' concept but if it becomes a Kobe only team, I think I'll watch less. If this deal does go through I'm wondering why anyone doesn't think a deal was ever going to be made. 

We certainly can't continue to hold onto every good player we sign/draft especially when their extensions come up, we knew a deal would eventually come up with the stack of players we have. Reindsdorf wouldn't spend top dollar to keep this a mediocre team. Pax knows what he's doing, he's stated if it makes sense for the team and improves the team he'll make a deal. I just hope if he makes the deal it won't seem like a backfire on us like the Chandler deal & I hope it doesn't backfire like when we traded for Jalen Rose.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

Another thing: guys, Kobe scoring 30 pts a game still leaves another 70 out there for his teammates.

All these one-man-show fears really seem to think he'll average 80.

I mean, we'll lose a guy who averages 20, and add a guy who'll get 30. Thats about it.



As far as him taking more shots than said guy... well, if it's a guy who consistently gets calls... you want that guy shooting a lot. 

any other view than that prizes the *aesthetic* quality of team basketball over what is BEST for the team.

I see a few people here falling into that.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

DengNabbit said:


> Let me ask though; how important is this to us? Do we have to have athletes be humanitarians? I hate to say it, but as long as they don't take away from the team... I'm kind of OK with having a jerk on the team.


Me too, under almost every other circumstance.

I hated having Rodman on the team because he brazenly and repeatedly tried to end Pippen/Jordan's career with hard fouls. To me, that's not an easy "forgive and forget" situation.

With Kobe, for me it's not about Eagle, CO, or the douchetastic way he's forcing himself out of LA or any of his other assholish transgressions. It's the fact that he is such a rip-off artist and MJ wannabe. And he'd be playing in a building built on MJ's shoulders while MJ is all but estranged from the organization. 

It just doesn't sit right with me.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> With Kobe, for me it's not about Eagle, CO, or the douchetastic way he's forcing himself out of LA or any of his other assholish transgressions. It's the fact that he is such a rip-off artist and MJ wannabe. And he'd be playing in a building built on MJ's shoulders while MJ is all but estranged from the organization.
> 
> It just doesn't sit right with me.


while i don't have a problem with this sentiment, kobe isn't the first and won't be the last superstar to talk or act out his way out from under an organization. it happens. however, i think the comparisons to mj are, while accurate, unfair. a great many players have been "begat" by their predecessors. baylor begat hawkins and dr.j, those two begat jordan and wilkins, and so on. there are more examples but i'm using those two since they're the closet in style to bryant. that's not a bad thing, yet fans seem to think because they play the same position he's guilty of "ripping off" jordan. i don't believe that's at all a conscious decision; it's just something that happens as a talented kid develops. that's really all that it is, i think the bigger pressure for kobe is in coming to chicago, how great the pressure will become for him to perform jordan like in games and IF he doesn't will that make his "dark side" come to the fore like so many posters seem to believe will happen.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Speaking of Kobe vs. the Suns, how about the second half of the last game, and a couple others in the past in which Kobe pulled the Gilbert Arenas style "OK, you want it to be a team game, I'll refuse to shoot" act?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

BULLHITTER said:


> while i don't have a problem with this sentiment, kobe isn't the first and won't be the last superstar to talk or act out his way out from under an organization. it happens. however, i think the comparisons to mj are, while accurate, unfair. a great many players have been "begat" by their predecessors. baylor begat hawkins and dr.j, those two begat jordan and wilkins, and so on. there are more examples but i'm using those two since they're the closet in style to bryant. that's not a bad thing, yet fans seem to think because they play the same position he's guilty of "ripping off" jordan. i don't believe that's at all a conscious decision; it's just something that happens as a talented kid develops. that's really all that it is, i think the bigger pressure for kobe is in coming to chicago, how great the pressure will become for him to perform jordan like in games and IF he doesn't will that make his "dark side" come to the fore like so many posters seem to believe will happen.


This isn't about being inspired by a player who came before you. That's a normal, healthy, necessary part of basketball.

I'm talking about little mannerisms -- the way he licks his lips, the way he tilts his head to look at an interviewer, the cadence of his speech. There isn't a single thing that's original about Kobe. It's all pattered after what MJ did and how he did it.

It's just creepy and irritating.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> I enjoyed the first threepeat team much, much more than the second. Part of this was having to endure the loathsome Rodman, but it was mainly so sweet to see a batch of young, mostly homegrown players mature and win a title.
> 
> I don't like having to root for Ben Wallace as it is. To throw in another hated outsider, and one whose whole career, right down to his mannerisms at the free throw line, his gestures during postgame interviews, and the way in which he kibbitzes with refs and other players is an unapologetic imitation of Michael Jordan's . . .
> 
> It'd be a real bitter pill to swallow. I wouldn't stop watching by any means, but a title won under those circumstances would be maybe 1/50th as satisfying as any of the first six.


I think you summed up my feelings pretty well here.

Nothing will stop me from watching or even rooting for the Bulls, but having Kobe on the team will severely lessen the joy. I just won't be able to root for the team as passionately as I've done my entire life. I won't derive the same pleasure off good plays and victories like I've always done.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> Jordan's teams didn't win a playoff series (or finish over .500 in the regular season, for that matter) until his fourth season.


Correct. While he was learning to be a great defender, leader and how to play within a team structured offense.

Kobe, who is going into year 12, should have all of this mastered by now shouldn't he? 1st round playoff losses for an experienced and mature player like Kobe only points at one thing. He is not MJ and he can't lead a team by himself.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> This isn't about being inspired by a player who came before you. That's a normal, healthy, necessary part of basketball.
> 
> I'm talking about little mannerisms -- the way he licks his lips, the way he tilts his head to look at an interviewer, the cadence of his speech. There isn't a single thing that's original about Kobe. It's all pattered after what MJ did and how he did it.
> 
> It's just creepy and irritating.


That pretty much sums up how I feel about the whole thing. He's creeped me out since he's come into the league. It's hard to root for someone who is so obviously calculating.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> This isn't about being inspired by a player who came before you. That's a normal, healthy, necessary part of basketball.
> 
> I'm talking about little mannerisms -- the way he licks his lips, the way he tilts his head to look at an interviewer, the cadence of his speech. There isn't a single thing that's original about Kobe. It's all pattered after what MJ did and how he did it.
> 
> It's just creepy and irritating.


you know you love it.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Anyone else finding it interesting to see all these reactions? I expected Kobe to be a polarizing figure, but it's been fun to see exactly who comes down where on all of this. I would have guessed incorrectly if I had been predicting who would enjoy having Kobe on the team and who would not in many instances.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

I haven't missed an aired game since the 87-88 season outside of forgetting to set a timer or a botched recording. I don't see myself doing any less if we did trade for Kobe.

I would enjoy the team a lot less than the current group. Ben Wallace was easy to root for as I have been a fan of the Pistons club (outside of Rasheed). I've always enjoyed rooting against Shaq, Kobe, Barkley, Ewing, Starks, Stockton, Karl Malone, and Reggie Miller. Shaq has been the only one to grow on me during their playing days a bit. Barkley has grown on me a bit after he retired. Perhaps Kobe would grow on me as well, but he certainly would not be my favorite member of the new team.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> I'm talking about little mannerisms -- the way he licks his lips, the way he tilts his head to look at an interviewer, the cadence of his speech. There isn't a single thing that's original about Kobe. It's all pattered after what MJ did and how he did it.
> 
> It's just creepy and irritating.


that's watching him a little too closely for my taste! j/k......but i still don't agree that kobe is a calculating(ly) copiyist of jordan. yes, it's obvious the style part of his game is there, but so what about the way he interviews, or god forbid "the way he licks his lips"? that's a bit more scrutiny than the normal player should endure, no?

he'll be just a cool to root for, as long as he achieves the purpose he'll be brought for. if he doesn't, i can just predict the hate that will spill into the streets for the deal, regardless of who's in it.


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## bigdbucks (Jun 7, 2002)

If the reports are correct and Ben Gordon is looking for a huge max type contract we need to pull a deal for Kobe. Kobe is a very good defender at the two and Hinrich is a good defender at the two. Moving Hinrich to point makes him a premier defender.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

For the record, when he first came into the league, I tried making him my new fav, to replace Jordan. Even going in with that mindset, of wanting to be a fan, I hated him pretty much immediately. Similar thing with Lebron. Went in there with an open mind, hoping to find the next Jordan to be a fan of, and while I don't hate him, he has no appeal whatsoever for me either. 

In a way that's not even really fair to those guys, cause OTHER people hype them up as the next Jordan, and when they pale in comparisons they disgust me. 

BTW, every single one of us that was little when Jordan was the man tried to emulate him, moves and all, so can't blame Kobe for THAT part of the imitation. I distinctly remember my teammates givin me crap in practice in grade school calling me Jordan because I'd go in for layups more like Jordan did than the "traditional" way the coach showed us.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> Me too, under almost every other circumstance.
> 
> I hated having Rodman on the team because he brazenly and repeatedly tried to end Pippen/Jordan's career with hard fouls. To me, that's not an easy "forgive and forget" situation.
> 
> ...



would you have a problem with Arenas being added? Lebron?

I mean, MJ was great, but it's over. we can't be banned from having a score-first guard who can average 30.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

bigdbucks said:


> Moving Hinrich to point makes him a premier defender.



I've thought that for years. If we had a real SG who could play defense, Hinrich would definitely elevate his game up towards the elite side.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

DengNabbit said:


> would you have a problem with Arenas being added? Lebron?
> 
> I mean, MJ was great, but it's over. we can't be banned from having a score-first guard who can average 30.


Nope, no problem with Arenas or LeBron. If you had the time and energy to sort through my post history, you'll see I'm a big-time proponent of "win now". 

I'd feel just as put off by Kobe if he'd chosen to slavishly copy Bob Cousy or Walt Bellamy or Andrew Toney. It makes it worse that he imitates Mike, but it's the fact that he so consciously and studiously imitates *anyone* (yes, right down to facial expressions and verbal tics; I guess I'm weird for being observant and watching someone's face when they talk)that bugs me.

Important distinction: I am not asking that Pax hold up a trade if one can be done that leaves the Bulls with enough left in the cupboard to be better than they are right now.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

BULLHITTER said:


> that's watching him a little too closely for my taste! j/k......but i still don't agree that kobe is a calculating(ly) copiyist of jordan. yes, it's obvious the style part of his game is there, but so what about the way he interviews, or god forbid "the way he licks his lips"? that's a bit more scrutiny than the normal player should endure, no?
> 
> he'll be just a cool to root for, as long as he achieves the purpose he'll be brought for. if he doesn't, i can just predict the hate that will spill into the streets for the deal, regardless of who's in it.


I think he's right about Kobe copying MJ. For those of us who grew up watching every Bulls game and watch Kobe, the things he does are uncanny in their similarity to MJ. The way he talks and his tounge and things like that. He must have studied these things for months and months to get to be the same. I thought I was the only one who thought this too, but now it's obvious to alot of people. It's very creepy in my book.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery? 


All told, he couldn't do that 'scoring thing' he does without some pretty hefty gifts from the athletic department and lots of hard work.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> Isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery?



exactly; why does his style seem to put people off so? i contend "so what?", he's got the "jordan thing" as part of his package. i'd suggest there are far worse players to copy than jordan. let's not forget (for those old enough) his father was an nba player (a decent one too), so it's not like he wasn't given any genes that could be developed; and develop them he did.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> It's the fact that he is such a rip-off artist and MJ wannabe. And he'd be playing in a building built on MJ's shoulders while MJ is all but estranged from the organization.
> 
> It just doesn't sit right with me.





DengNebbit said:


> As far as him taking more shots than said guy... well, if it's a guy who consistently gets calls... you want that guy shooting a lot.


According to some of the reputable posters on here, one way a superstar is defined is by how many times they get to the line (FTA).

I looked a bit at playoff stats and Kobe's and MJ's best playoff average FTAs. 

MJ during his championship years averaged about 8-9 free throws a game. His best average during our championship years was in the very last one, where he averaged 10-11. When he was in his ballhogging years, he averaged over 13 a game.

You'd think that being the only option in LA, Kobe would be averaging double digits, but in fact he's only averaged around 7 FT attempts a game in the playoffs without Shaq. His highest ever was 9 FTA a game in the year they faced the 76ers, but that was more an aberration than the norm. 

To boot Kobe, made his free throws at a wildly fluctuating 77% while MJ made it at a steady 82%.

Also interesting to note that Pip didn't develop an ability to get to the line in the playoffs till he was in his 3rd year.

BTW, Ben Gordon's FTAs the past 2 years has hovered around 6 (6.1 and 5.8).

So Kobe's a little taller, can score slightly better, but he's also quite a bit older. He doesn't get to the line that much more than Ben Gordon. 

If he were to come, his effect will be quite overrated.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> The ambition to win is far and away the most important quality in the NBA, where players are guaranteed the highest average salary of any professional league on earth. Those salaries are awarded entirely upon hope. Teams sign players to eight-figure contracts in hope they'll work harder than ever to win, rather than relax into a state of semi-retirement.
> 
> It's not like players making big money are going to earn appreciably bigger money by winning. The NBA, to its detriment, doesn't operate that way.
> 
> ...


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/ian_thomsen/10/30/kobe/1.html


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

GB said:


> All told, he couldn't do that 'scoring thing' he does without some pretty hefty gifts from the athletic department and lots of hard work.


Too bad Kobe couldn't copy the heart and soul of MJ. Guess you can't pick that up from watching video.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

The 6ft Hurdle said:


> So Kobe's a little taller *if little were to mean much*, can score slightly better* if slightly now means a lot, is the much better defender, rebounds better, has more blocks and steals per minute, has the better A/TO ratio*, but he's also quite a bit older.


Fixed


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Assuming we get, say Deng and Thomas in this deal, players I normally dont care or follow ,especially at the expense of the best player in the league,that doesnt necessarily mean I will stop watching the Lakers.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

lougehrig said:


> Too bad Kobe couldn't copy the heart and soul of MJ. Guess you can't pick that up from watching video.


Why do you act like Kobe doesn't have any heart for the game? He became the player he is today with the heart and the hard work he's put in, into making his game better. He's work ethic and training is the best in league.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Mebarak said:


> No, but it would seriously impair my enjoyment of the team. I'd probably be hoping for Kobe to fail, so he opts out in two years and leaves, so we can rebuild if we make the trade.
> 
> Lakers have 24 national tv games (ESPN/ABC/TNT). I think I'd definitely watch Gordon play there. He is the heart and soul of the post-Jordan Bulls, and the best post-Jordan Bull. Trading for Kobe will be Paxson's downfall as a GM...while Mitch Kupchak will some how come out looking like a genius.


Dont know why I have to keep telling you, but Kobe is a hell of a better player than Gordon.

You would have to be either a mental patient or retarded to think otherwise.


Heart and sole? Seeing as how right now he looks like a money grubbing whore, I'd say Kirk is the heart and soul.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

In my honest opinion, if you answer "Yes" to this question, you're not a true Bulls fan. Period.


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## Bullsky (Jun 11, 2006)

chibul said:


> In my honest opinion, if you answer "Yes" to this question, you're not a true Bulls fan. Period.


So fans that don't want whats best for the team and the organization are not true fans? Interesting...


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

Eternal said:


> Why do you act like Kobe doesn't have any heart for the game? He became the player he is today with the heart and the hard work he's put in, into making his game better. He's work ethic and training is the best in league.


agreed. and i think the Bulls are the perfect situation for him to come in and get business-like. and he seems to have matured in some ways since parting with Shaq. But while the Bulls would be a clean start, he has always been all serious about the game.

all these people who are bashing a Kobe trade, i cant wait til the season starts - how long it takes for them to come to their senses.

probably by that first game where 'the shots arent falling' and - surprise - we lose.

in the playoffs, you have to win the games like that, and the Bulls as presently constituted are incapable.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

Bullsky said:


> So fans that don't want whats best for the team and the organization are not true fans? Interesting...


No. People that would stop watching completely because of a trade aren't true fans.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Morals trump fanship. It's called a life-code Chibul. IMO if you were a fan during the down years, you're a true fan.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

johnston797 said:


> Fixed


While you were busy playing repair man, you actually missed the point. The point is that he doesn't get to the line a whole lot as people think he would. 

Is Kobe that much of a creator whose production we can't just get out of a combination of Ben Gordon and Luol Deng?

Carrying his team alone, he has averaged roughly only 1 free throw a game more in the playoffs than Ben Gordon. 7 free throws a game.

MJ carrying a team alone averaged 13, and 8-9 during the championship years. Elite players like Duncan and Dirk, average 8-9. 

Rip Hamilton, Ben Gordon 6.

How is a guy like Kobe going to create more opportunities for other players that he isn't going to take away?

Would Kobe's abilities have been able to compensate for our short big guys against Detroit?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

No.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

The 6ft Hurdle said:


> The point is that he doesn't get to the line a whole lot as people think he would.


I think the point was lost due to Kobe going to the line 27 times last night.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

johnston797 said:


> I think the point was lost due to Kobe going to the line 27 times last night.


Playoff Stats.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

The 6ft Hurdle said:


> Playoff Stats.


More efficient, more scoring (to the tune of 28 ppg in his last 81 playoff games) + All NBA D


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

I went to every home game when the main man was Ron Mercer.

Yes, I'll keep watching the Bulls if they manage to get the best player in the NBA on their team.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Morals trump fanship. It's called a life-code Chibul. IMO if you were a fan during the down years, you're a true fan.


"Morals"?

You don't like the guy. It's not an issue of morality. Give me a break. If you quit watching your team because of one player, you're not a true fan. I agree with being a true fan if you were there during the down years, but you'd think that if you were, you wouldn't abandon your team when the best player in the league comes to town.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

chifaninca said:


> I survived John Starks in a Bulls Uni, anything is palatable after that.


Man, I forgot Starks played for the Bulls at one time.

Then again, speaking of former foes becoming Bulls, so did Rodman, Salley and Edwards.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

kflo said:


> jordan never had mediocre 1st round exit teams. he always won, even without talent around him.


Excuse me? MJ's first 3 seasons ended in 1st Round exits.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

For that matter, his final two seasons he didn't even make the playoffs.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

johnston797 said:


> More efficient, more scoring (to the tune of 28 ppg in his last 81 playoff games) + All NBA D


Everyone knows Kobe is better individually. It would be a waste of time to argue otherwise. 

I'm trying to tease out what he would mean for this team. 

If he's not getting many free throw attempts in the playoffs, how much better is his offense going to be? Is he just going to take away attempts from Deng and or whoever is left or is he really going to make the team better? 

The Kobe I've seen here the past two years is a guy who creates a dependence on his ability. He can carry a team to a first round playoff exit, but he doesn't make anyone better.

The guards are the least of our problems right now, and I doubt getting Kobe for Gordon and other pieces would offset any of that. I think there would be a heck of a lot more certainty in our offense, but we'd also be a bit more predictable.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

That was a sarcastic statement by kflo.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

The 6ft Hurdle said:


> Everyone knows Kobe is better individually. It would be a waste of time to argue otherwise.
> 
> I'm trying to tease out what he would mean for this team.
> 
> If he's not getting many free throw attempts in the playoffs, how much better is his offense going to be?


I don't really know how to respond to your FT attempts during the playoffs argument. Kobe is still better at finishing or drawing fouls near the basket than anyone on the Bulls. Nobody on the Bulls can match his combination of height, athleticism, ball-handling, and touch. 

Another element he brings to the table is better passing. He has a very low turnover rate. He will be able to take advantage of double teams off the pick and roll that frequently occur in our offense because he is taller and has decent vision - Kirk and Ben are often unable to make difficult pinpoint passes over their usually taller defenders. 



> The Kobe I've seen here the past two years is a guy who creates a dependence on his ability. He can carry a team to a first round playoff exit, but he doesn't make anyone better.


The Lakers haven't gotten out of the first round because the Lakers are poorly constructed. He is surrounded by poor outside shooters and guys who need the ball to be effective, like Odom and Walton. He consistently gets his teammates open shots, but they are not very efficient at making them. Despite that, the Lakers were the 7th best offensive team in the league. The Bulls were 20th. 

The Bulls have 3 elite shooters far superior to anyone on LA's roster - Gordon, Nocioni, and Hinrich - and another that's very good in Deng.


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## Salvaged Ship (Jul 10, 2002)

Getting back to the topic at hand, people would stop watching the Bulls because one of the top players of all time was acquired for some of our marginal players? Stop watching???????? Because he is a shady character? We had 3 previous bad boys on our team in 96, and I don't think anyone stopped watching then. Remember Rodman's foul on Pippen in the 91 playoffs? No one in the history of sports was a bigger jerk than Rodman (especially towards the Bulls) yet we cheered him on unbiasedly. Kobe is a choir boy, an actual saint compared to the Worm. People wouldn't watch because we gave up Gordon and Thomas????????????????????????????? What??????????????????????


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