# The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread (Formerly 'Trade This Week?')



## O2K

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20607408/



> When the season opens for the Lakers on Oct. 30, Kobe Bryant is likely not to be on the team, according to a few L.A. sources. The Lakers are likely to take a trade that isn’t fully equal in talent in order to be rid of Bryant, who has become an extreme nuisance to the Buss family owners. Phil Jackson has apparently been given control to make whatever personnel decisions are necessary but the Busses have made their intentions clear: Get Kobe out. (New York Post)



Is there a least credible source than vescey?

I dont know


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## DaBabyBullz

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

Just as long as he doesn't go to Chicago I don't care.


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## chifaninca

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

I'd take Kobe - For Gordon, Resigned PJ Brown, Duhon, Krapper, Benny the Bull and their choice of any 3 Luv A Bulls.........Plus one matador.



I don't believe he'll be a Bull before December. If he gets traded before then, I find it hard to believe he'd be a Bull.


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## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

Has the Post gotten anything right recently? This rumor is not worth typing a reply on an internet blog.

Oops.


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## PD

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

If the Lakers are willing to settle Gordon and Du or Safo as the principle players and a our first next year. Why not? PJ Brown probably wouldn't mind to be resigned for about $9M and be waived. If that was the case, the Bulls would need to throw in another player or two and some cash to offset Brown's salary. The Bulls would suddently become a top 4 or 5 team in the whole league with Hinrich, Kobe, Deng, Wallace and Thomas/Noah/Smith at PF, and still a decent bench in Nocioni and whoever is left.


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## Ruff Draft

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

LA needs to ask for Gordon & Hinrich or it's not worth it.
--

Although I do see him being traded before the quarter mark, I don't know if next week is reasonable...


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## lougehrig

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



Ruff Draft said:


> LA needs to ask for Gordon & Hinrich or it's not worth it.
> --
> 
> Although I do see him being traded before the quarter mark, I don't know if next week is reasonable...


No offense, but can a Bulls fan really trust a Piston fan's trade suggestion?


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## Wynn

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



chifaninca said:


> I'd take Kobe - For Gordon, Resigned PJ Brown, Duhon, Krapper, Benny the Bull and their choice of any 3 Luv A Bulls.........Plus one matador.


to me, the matador is the deal breaker. We need to kep all of our matadors in place....


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## Ruff Draft

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



lougehrig said:


> No offense, but can a Bulls fan really trust a Piston fan's trade suggestion?


With all homer-ism aside. I'm a fan of basketball, and I can tell who has talent.


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## bootstrenf

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

kobe for gordon and a bunch of fillers??? i freakin hate the lakers and kobe, but he is worth a lot more than that...

personally, i think in terms of talent, you would have to give up two of the "core" players at least, to get kobe...


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## Ruff Draft

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



bootstrenf said:


> kobe for gordon and a bunch of fillers??? i freakin hate the lakers and kobe, but he is worth a lot more than that...
> 
> personally, i think in terms of talent, you would have to give up two of the "core" players at least, to get kobe...


I'll second that, but they NEED to keep Deng. Losing him for Kobe isn't worth it to me. Gordon + Kirk + Filler is perfect I think. Duhon could handle Kirk's PT, and wel... it's Kobe.


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## The ROY

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

They'd get ATLEAST Noah or TT also.

Duhon would be a VERY stable PG for LA. Plus he loves the nightlife, good place for him.

They may POSSIBLY think they can make B.G. their combo guard who puts up 25 ppg.

TT or Noah would be the missing component to their future frontcourt with Bynum.

I'd do it, love Noah & TT but whatever, this is KOBE we're talking about.


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## Ruff Draft

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

Either one of those guys next to Bynum would be cool. They should ask for another PG, but will they really do it? Right now Fisher, Critt, AND Farmar are all battling for time.


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## Rhyder

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

The deal I liked:

Gordon, Thomas, Duhon, Smith
FOR
Kobe, Farmar

Hinrich/Farmar/Curry
Bryant/Sefolosha
Deng/Khryapa
Noah/Noc
Wallace/Gray

Pick up a Vet minimum big if we can


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## bootstrenf

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



Rhyder said:


> The deal I liked:
> 
> Gordon, Thomas, Duhon, Smith
> FOR
> Kobe, Farmar
> 
> Hinrich/Farmar/Curry
> Bryant/Sefolosha
> Deng/Khryapa
> Noah/Noc
> Wallace/Gray
> 
> Pick up a Vet minimum big if we can


you sure you're not giving up too much???:lol:


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## Hustle

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



> *
> As for Bryant, he isn't going anywhere unless Jackson says so. Evidently the entire Buss family - Jerry and Jim, not just Jeanie - has given Jackson personnel power.* Everyone working together suddenly rubberizes Kobe's crutch that the front office is the problem. Not anymore. Meaning, the only way Bryant will be traded is he decides not to play defense and team ball. New York Post
> 
> Some piped-in people out here are convinced Bryant will not be a Laker Oct. 30 when they open the season against the glaringly upgraded Rockets, even if L.A. must accept an inequitable return for the league's preeminent talent; that's how repugnant he supposedly has become to the owner's senses. New York Post
> 
> Though others in the know concede Bryant's incomparable purple and gold scoring salvos are endangered (even should he remain holed up at the office supply store, Phil Jackson has asked him to slab his beast-of-burden act), they refuse to believe Buss will "just take stuff" to exorcise an evil spirit. "You can make a (bad) deal any time you want," an opposing team executive said. "If you're willing to just take stuff, what's the hurry? You've got until the late February trade deadline to afford yourself a chance to see if things can be worked out." New York Post
> 
> Jackson is the lone person who has any shot of disarming this dispute. Both sides trust him more these days than ever before, I'm informed. Buss is listening to Jackson's advice to keep Bryant if compliant. Bryant may not be a true believer but, for the moment, Jackson has his attention; the Zen Hen is trying to persuade Bryant everything is being done within reason to boost a roster that boasts noticeably more positive qualities than given credit. New York Post
> 
> "*I'm trying to make Bryant understand it's not over," Jackson said.* "Just because the season is about to begin it doesn't mean we've stopped trying to improve." New York Post


Deadline sounds more realistic.


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## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



bootstrenf said:


> you sure you're not giving up too much???:lol:


Yeah, he offered too much. We'll keep our young bigs, thank you. Substitute PJ Brown for Thomas and Duhon.
What you don't seem to realize is that the Bulls don't need Kobe to win a title -- this year.


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## bootstrenf

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> Yeah, he offered too much. We'll keep our young bigs, thank you. Substitute PJ Brown for Thomas and Duhon.
> *What you don't seem to realize is that the Bulls don't need Kobe to win a title -- this year.*




has nothing to do with evaluating if a trade is fair for both sides...which it obviously wasn't...


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## Mr.Montross

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

Kobe is a team killer. He's pretty much proven that over the last three seasons.

Why would any team, other than for attendence purposes, give up talent for Bryant?


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## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



bootstrenf said:


> has nothing to do with evaluating if a trade is fair for both sides...which it obviously wasn't...


Whatever happens, you can bet that an LA trade involving Kobe will not be "fair" to LA. Actually, it is easy to over-rate the value of a player who has 33000 minutes logged in his knees. Outsiders are all too eagar to trade Bulls players who are 5+ years younger than Kobe -- who will in all probability play twice as long in the NBA. Not saying they are "better" now or in the future, but they will play for a longer period of time. Fantasy players always seem to undervalue age -- probably because their time horizon is limited to one year. Not saying you are a fantasy player, but your idea of "fairness" seems similar.


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## bootstrenf

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> Whatever happens, you can bet that an LA trade involving Kobe will not be "fair" to LA. Actually, it is easy to over-rate the value of a player who has 33000 minutes logged in his knees. Outsiders are all too eagar to trade Bulls players who are 5+ years younger than Kobe -- who will in all probability play twice as long in the NBA. Not saying they are "better" now or in the future, but they will play for a longer period of time. Fantasy players always seem to undervalue age -- probably because their time horizon is limited to one year. Not saying you are a fantasy player, but your idea of "fairness" seems similar.




what's more important to a franchise, having a good playoff team that never wins a chip, for how ever many years you think your "young" players will hold up....or a championship with a great player???


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## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



bootstrenf said:


> what's more important to a franchise, having a good playoff team that never wins a chip, for how ever many years you think your "young" players will hold up....or a championship with a great player???


Spoken like a true member of the fantasy league -- forget about tomorrow!

Truth is, you have no idea how good a player Ben Gordon, Lu Deng, Joakim Noah or Tyrus Thomas will be five years from now. But we do know how good Kobe will be -- he will be nearly finished, or out of the league altogether. Certainly his contract will be finished. Who cares about 5 years from now? A farsighted fan or owner, that's who.

All I'm saying is that the longevity of a player is an important part of his value. It's weird how few fans seem to be able to comprehend that.


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## KDOS

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> Truth is, you have no idea how good a player Ben Gordon, Lu Deng, Joakim Noah or Tyrus Thomas will be five years from now.



In that same perspective, you have no idea either how bad these players are going to be 5 years from now as well. Ben Gordon could be nothing more but a one dimensional, streaky shooter. Remember Jerry Stackhouse? Stack was more of a complete player compared to Ben Gordon, and how do you define Stackouse's career? Nothing more but a journey man and a solid role player at best. Tyrus Thomas? I dont know, it reminded me of Stromile Swift's upside when he first came in the league, and where is Stro nowadays? Joakim Noah could be a 10 and 7 at best for the next 5 years. But is he worth keeping over a future NBA Hof'er?


Only exception IMO is Luol Deng. I think he's a proven commodity and is an asset for the Bulls organization if they want to build around Bryant. But other than that, the other players mentioned in this trade could be just some borderline, a strong set of spark plugs for the rest of their life.


I agree that age should be of a concern, but Kobe has a superior work ethic and passion to prove his worth in the game of basketball. I think he can easily have another 5 years of playing in an elite level. 



I think basketball owners always look at it in two irrefutable point of views. First and foremost is from a marketing and business stand point, and taking that into consideration Kobe is the leagues biggest attraction. Kobe playing in another big market like Chicago means more revenue for Reinsdorf, his partners and their respective sponsors. Its no coincident that LA has been the top drawer for the past 2 years, despite playing mediocre brand of hoops.



If winning is also a concern, then Chicago is going to get a proven winner in return. Kobe is a certified All NBA type of player. He can get Chicago in that next level. Its really a no brainer, surround Kobe with the type of cast Chicago has and an NBA Finals appearance is not out of the equation.



I think the Bulls should willingly offer and without hesitation a package of Gordon,Thomas,Joakim Noah a 1st rounder as principles. Add a filler for salary purposes and if LA agrees, take it and dont look back.


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## Jib Meister

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

If we keep waiting for tomorrow we'll miss out on our shot today. I'm not suggesting that we give up the farm for Kobe, but holding out because we're afraid of giving up potential lacks balls. This isn't Jalen Rose we're talking about - this is the 2nd best SG ever. One of the few players out there that's capable of putting a team on his shoulders and take over a game. And he wants to play here.


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## Ruff Draft

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

The Bulls have yet to all reach their ceiling, but none of them will ever be Kobe. Nor anything close. If this is for real they have to do it.


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## mgolding

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

I dont think the deal gets done without Hinrich of Deng being involved.

This trade would have to wait until decemeber:

Lakers Get:
Hinrich
Nocioni
Thomas
Chicagos 1st 2008 Pick

Bulls Get:
Kobe

Bulls Line-up
Wallace / Gray
Smith / Noah
Deng / Krapper / Griffin
Kobe / Sefolosha / Griffin
Gordon / Duhon

If the Bulls give up anymore than that, they dont contend with Wests top teams. The question with the Lakers is, if they feel they have to trade him, can they get a better deal with anyone else that Kobe is willing to go to.


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## narek

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

This was in the OC Register:

*For Bryant-to-Chicago trade speculators: Scouting the Lakers' game Tuesday night was Bulls consultant Jim Paxson, brother of Bulls general manager John Paxson. *

http://www.ocregister.com/sports/lakers-los-angeles-1902970-lakers-lakers


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## GB

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

Man, if the Bulls don't know what they'd be getting in Kobe...


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## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



mgolding said:


> I dont think the deal gets done without Hinrich of Deng being involved.


Substitute Khryapa for Thomas and LA has a deal :
Lakers Get:
Hinrich
Nocioni
Khryapa
Chicagos 1st 2008 Pick

Bulls Get:
Kobe

Bulls Line-up
Wallace / Gray
Thomas/Smith / Noah
Deng / Griffin
Kobe / Sefolosha / Griffin
Gordon / Duhon

If the Bulls give up anymore than that, they dont contend with Wests top teams. The question with the Lakers is, if they feel they have to trade him, can they get a better deal with anyone else that Kobe is willing to go to.


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## narek

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



GB said:


> Man, if the Bulls don't know what they'd be getting in Kobe...


He was probably checking out Bynam or Turiaf. Or just watching a game for the heck of it. I just loved that bit about trade speculators.


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## BULLHITTER

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



> Substitute Khryapa for Thomas and LA has a deal :
> Lakers Get:
> Hinrich
> Nocioni
> Khryapa
> Chicagos 1st 2008 Pick
> 
> Bulls Get:
> Kobe
> 
> Bulls Line-up
> Wallace / Gray
> Thomas/Smith / Noah
> Deng / Griffin
> Kobe / Sefolosha / Griffin
> Gordon / Duhon
> 
> If the Bulls give up anymore than that, they dont contend with Wests top teams. The question with the Lakers is, if they feel they have to trade him, can they get a better deal with anyone else that Kobe is willing to go to.


i've been mum on kobe, but if pax can get this kind of deal i think he does it with no hesitation. i respect hinrich's game immensely, but i'm of the opinion gordon's much more lethal fit than kirk next to #24.

character issues aside, i think it's important to point out that pax and skiles likely don't consider kobe as the perceived "team killer" or "cancer" as he's portrayed. he did in fact visit chicago during his FA visits a few years back, and i'm inclined to believe they have a fairly accurate read on guys' character. i just believe firmly that pax wants to make a deal that's going to put the team over the top along with not mortgaging any serious future the bulls might have.

the above deal does that; LA accepting it is the $64,000.00 question.


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## Rhyder

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> Yeah, he offered too much. We'll keep our young bigs, thank you. Substitute PJ Brown for Thomas and Duhon.
> What you don't seem to realize is that the Bulls don't need Kobe to win a title -- this year.


So Kobe is basically being traded straight up for Gordon, and we're keeping PJ Brown on the roster until December 15th? Would you do that deal if you were the Laker GM?

My deal assumes there is no Kobe firesale. Obviously if there is a firesale, we can assume to give a bit less. However I don't think his value will ever get so low that the best offer is Gordon and nothing else. I can't imagine that scenerio.



McBulls said:


> Substitute Khryapa for Thomas and LA has a deal :
> Lakers Get:
> Hinrich
> Nocioni
> Khryapa
> Chicagos 1st 2008 Pick
> 
> Bulls Get:
> Kobe


So Gordon's value is equal to Hinrich, Nocioni, and a pick?


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## Rhyder

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> I think the Bulls should willingly offer and without hesitation a package of Gordon,Thomas,Joakim Noah a 1st rounder as principles. Add a filler for salary purposes and if LA agrees, take it and dont look back.


My deal gets laughed at, yet this guy wants Noah & a pick on top of it from a Lakers perspective.

Perhaps I'm not so far off? Laker fans, would this be a deal even worth consideration or are there better (rumored) offers out there?

Gordon, Thomas, Duhon and Smith 
FOR
Kobe & Farmar


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## Damian Necronamous

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> Substitute Khryapa for Thomas and LA has a deal :
> Lakers Get:
> Hinrich
> Nocioni
> Khryapa
> Chicagos 1st 2008 Pick
> 
> Bulls Get:
> Kobe
> 
> Bulls Line-up
> Wallace / Gray
> Thomas/Smith / Noah
> Deng / Griffin
> Kobe / Sefolosha / Griffin
> Gordon / Duhon
> 
> If the Bulls give up anymore than that, they dont contend with Wests top teams. The question with the Lakers is, if they feel they have to trade him, can they get a better deal with anyone else that Kobe is willing to go to.


Why the hell would the Lakers ever do that? Kobe Bryant is the best player in the league. You think we would trade him for THAT?

Kobe would cost you at least Gordon, Nocioni, Thomas and a 1st rounder. Mark my words.


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## kukoc4ever

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



Damian Necronamous said:


> Kobe would cost you at least Gordon, Nocioni, Thomas and a 1st rounder. Mark my words.


That's the Kobe trade I'd love to do.

I mean, come on, we're going to battle with

Hirnich / Duhon
Kobe / Thabo
Deng / THE HAWK
Smith/Noah
Wallace/Gray

That's a real nice "win now" team, and still plenty deep.

Get it done Paxson.


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## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



Rhyder said:


> So Kobe is basically being traded straight up for Gordon, and we're keeping PJ Brown on the roster until December 15th? Would you do that deal if you were the Laker GM?
> 
> My deal assumes there is no Kobe firesale. Obviously if there is a firesale, we can assume to give a bit less. However I don't think his value will ever get so low that the best offer is Gordon and nothing else. I can't imagine that scenerio.
> 
> So Gordon's value is equal to Hinrich, Nocioni, and a pick?


As far as the details of these trades go, I think it would be stupid to give up our young bigs (TT and Noah). IMO those two players are more important to the Bull's future than Kobe Bryant could be. Keeping one is not enough.

Not that I'm against trading a Big -- Nocioni, Wallace and Smith are all tradable. 

One thing that makes my eyes glaze over is the idea that the Bulls should be "fair". They have an obligation to put together the best possible team, period. They don't owe LA anything. So, IMO it is not in the best interest of the Bulls to add an aging superstar wing player (when they probably already have three excellent wings) at the cost of sacrificing the teams future front line.


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## kukoc4ever

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> Not that I'm against trading a Big -- Nocioni, Wallace and Smith are all tradable.
> 
> One thing that makes my eyes glaze over is the idea that the Bulls should be "fair".


Right, but how about realistic?

They would have 0 interest in Wallace. A Kobe trade for them is punting on the present for the future. 3 years of overpaid, aging Wallace is the last thing they are looking for.

They want young, good players. Deng would be their first option, but if we're lucky, they would settle for Gordon and TT.... in return we get THE BEST FREAKING BASKETBALL PLAYER IN THE NBA!!!!


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## Rhyder

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> As far as the details of these trades go, I think it would be stupid to give up our young bigs (TT and Noah). IMO those two players are more important to the Bull's future than Kobe Bryant could be. Keeping one is not enough.
> 
> Not that I'm against trading a Big -- Nocioni, Wallace and Smith are all tradable.
> 
> One thing that makes my eyes glaze over is the idea that the Bulls should be "fair". They have an obligation to put together the best possible team, period. They don't owe LA anything. So, IMO it is not in the best interest of the Bulls to add an aging superstar wing player (when they probably already have three excellent wings) at the cost of sacrificing the teams future front line.


So would you be willing to give up, say, Kirk and Ben for Kobe instead?

I felt my deal was low balling them a little bit, but I also really would not want to offer any more. I am happy with our current squad and am not of the opinion that Kobe is a necessity to win a championship. However, I do think we could roll the dice and take him at the expense of one of our young bigs.

In any case, we'll have at least until December 15th to see how our team and the Kobe situation plays itself out. If he is traded this week, I don't really see a deal that would work unless the Lakers really wanted Wallace (which I was imagining they did not).


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## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



Rhyder said:


> So would you be willing to give up, say, Kirk and Ben for Kobe instead?


Yeah, I'd trade Kirk and Ben for Kobe; primarily because I think Duhon would fit very well with Kobe, and Sefolosha would be a good backup. That's more than enough value for Kobe. I wouldn't add anything else except PJ Brown -- not even a 2nd round pick.

Realistically at this point, it would be logical to include Ben Wallace and Gordon in the trade (for salary matching purposes), maybe add Sefolosha as well.


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## Rhyder

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> Yeah, I'd trade Kirk and Ben for Kobe; primarily because I think Duhon would fit very well with Kobe, and Sefolosha would be a good backup. That's more than enough value for Kobe. I wouldn't add anything else except PJ Brown -- not even a 2nd round pick.
> 
> Realistically at this point, it would be logical to include Ben Wallace and Gordon in the trade (for salary matching purposes), maybe add Sefolosha as well.


So your issue is more about roster balance post trade. Originally, I thought you were talking unhappy with the value traded away ("offering too much").

I was just curious why a few people thought I was insane, but no one was making any comments on Laker fans voicing their opinions. :biggrin:


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## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



kukoc4ever said:


> Right, but how about realistic?
> 
> They would have 0 interest in Wallace. A Kobe trade for them is punting on the present for the future. 3 years of overpaid, aging Wallace is the last thing they are looking for.
> 
> They want young, good players. Deng would be their first option, but if we're lucky, they would settle for Gordon and TT.... in return we get THE BEST FREAKING BASKETBALL PLAYER IN THE NBA!!!!


Well, I guess part of the problem is that I think Gordon is a pretty good SG, TT could possibly become a superstar, and Nocioni is a great 6th man. 

If the plan to include TT in a trade for Kobe or Gasol, prepare yourself to be possibly chagrined in two years when the kid puts it all together. On the other hand, if you're convinced that TT will at best be an ordinary NBA forward, then I can understand wanting to include him in a trade.

Bottom line is that I don't want Kobe unless he comes at a bargain price -- the kind of price that will make LA fans scream. The hard truth is that he has a long history of being a difficult person to get along with, on and off the floor. His game depends in large measure on his quickness and jumping ability, which are two things that inevitably go into decline after 30. He has 33000 minutes of pounding on his knees, and a brand new system to learn in Chicago -- with no training camp. In two years Kobe has the option to walk away if he's unhappy in Chicago -- and as far as I can tell he spends a lot of time being unhappy. His salary would put the Bulls into the luxury tax, so you can forget about adding MLE free agents. The Bulls will have a good regular season records over the next few years, so forget about picking up any help in the draft.

LA has made their Kobe bed and they should lie in it. Find the guy a teammate or two that will make him happy without sacrificing Bynum. If they want to trade with the Bulls, they should not count on getting any of our 20-21 year old players -- particularly the big ones. Trade a guard, get a guard or SF in return.


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## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



kukoc4ever said:


> Right, but how about realistic?
> 
> They would have 0 interest in Wallace. A Kobe trade for them is punting on the present for the future. 3 years of overpaid, aging Wallace is the last thing they are looking for.
> 
> They want young, good players. Deng would be their first option, but if we're lucky, they would settle for Gordon and TT.... in return we get THE BEST FREAKING BASKETBALL PLAYER IN THE NBA!!!!


http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/48724/20071024/lakers_high_on_nocioni/



> Lakers High On Nocioni
> October 24, 2007 - 12:00 pm
> 
> Orange County Register -
> The Bulls reportedly have made star forward Luol Deng untouchable in any Kobe Bryant deal, so the Lakers made it known they wouldn't agree to a deal *unless the incoming package includes center Ben Wallace*, a choice between guards Ben Gordon and Kirk Hinrich, and others.
> 
> But when the Chicago Tribune reported that Bryant wants to play with Wallace, it meant the Bulls would have to change the package to perhaps include Tyrus Thomas or Joakim Noah, forward Andres Nocioni and a first-round pick.
> 
> The Lakers are reportedly very interested in Nocioni, a former Argentine star who averaged 14.1 points and 5.7 rebounds for Chicago last season. But by rule, he can't be traded until after Dec. 15.
> 
> There also has been speculation in Chicago the Bulls want to find out how good this team will be before making a major trade.


That's coming out of California, K4E. I know it's strange. Maybe this is because the Lakers realize it's almost impossible to trade Kobe to the Bulls without Wallace (before Dec 15), as I've been saying for quite some time. I agree, he's not an ideal fit for that team.

By the way guys, Nocioni and Smith can't be traded until December 15 because of the new deals they signed over the summer.


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## Drewbs

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> Spoken like a true member of the fantasy league -- forget about tomorrow!
> 
> Truth is, you have no idea how good a player Ben Gordon, Lu Deng, Joakim Noah or Tyrus Thomas will be five years from now. But we do know how good Kobe will be -- he will be nearly finished, or out of the league altogether. Certainly his contract will be finished. Who cares about 5 years from now? A farsighted fan or owner, that's who.
> 
> All I'm saying is that the longevity of a player is an important part of his value. It's weird how few fans seem to be able to comprehend that.


In 5 years Kobe will be finished? Or out of the league? Where in the world do you get that idea from? You act as if the guy is an old man by calling him aging. By all indications, Kobe is probably going to be an all star caliber player until the day he retires. Why is that? He can adapt his game. Hes 29, doesn't have nearly the athleticism or quickness he had at 23-24, yet is playing by far the best ball of his career. Think for a moment, the guy had arthroscopic surgery on his knee last offseason, he came back both out of shape, and lacking explosiveness the first few months of the season. I remember the first few games, he could barely dunk without almost getting stuffed by the rim, yet he was still dropping 50 point games like they were nothing. Its more of a stretch to say that Kobe at 34 will be out of the league than it is to say Kobe at 34 will still be at least as good as Ben Gordon at 28.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/48724/20071024/lakers_high_on_nocioni/
> 
> 
> 
> That's coming out of California, K4E. I know it's strange. Maybe this is because the Lakers realize it's almost impossible to trade Kobe to the Bulls without Wallace (before Dec 15), as I've been saying for quite some time. I agree, he's not an ideal fit for that team.
> 
> By the way guys, Nocioni and Smith can't be traded until December 15 because of the new deals they signed over the summer.


So a Wallace + Gordon + Sefolosha + 2008 #1 pick should be enough to get Kobe if LA is in a hurry (which they should be -- Kobe's stock is falling as we speak)

Hinrich/Duhon/Gardener
Bryant/Griffin/Hinrich/JO Curry
Deng/Nocioni/Bryant
Thomas/Smith/Noah/Nocioni/Khryapa
Smith/Noah/Gray


----------



## Drewbs

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> So a Wallace + Gordon + Sefolosha + 2008 #1 pick should be enough to get Kobe if LA is in a hurry (which they should be -- Kobe's stock is falling as we speak)
> 
> Hinrich/Duhon/Gardener
> Bryant/Griffin/Hinrich/JO Curry
> Deng/Nocioni/Bryant
> Thomas/Smith/Noah/Nocioni/Khryapa
> Smith/Noah/Gray


Remind me how Kobe's stock is falling again?


----------



## jnrjr79

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/48724/20071024/lakers_high_on_nocioni/
> 
> 
> 
> That's coming out of California, K4E. I know it's strange. Maybe this is because the Lakers realize it's almost impossible to trade Kobe to the Bulls without Wallace (before Dec 15), as I've been saying for quite some time. I agree, he's not an ideal fit for that team.
> 
> By the way guys, Nocioni and Smith can't be traded until December 15 because of the new deals they signed over the summer.


This is also consistent with LA's desire to have guys with star power. Like it or not, Ben Wallace has the strongest national persona of anyone on the Bulls at present.


----------



## The ROY

*Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*

ocregister.com

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/48724/20071024/lakers_high_on_nocioni/



> There is no urgency to trade Bryant now. The team can sift through potential offers and move him before the February trading deadline, if the Lakers aren't in serious playoff contention at the time, or it can wait until after the season. The team certainly can't wait any longer than that and risk losing him to free agency without any compensation.
> 
> And if the Bulls are the most logical suitor — and all indications are that Bryant would love to play in Chicago, where Michael Jordan became a star — a deal could happen by December.
> 
> The Bulls reportedly have made star forward Luol Deng untouchable, so the Lakers made it known they wouldn't agree to a deal unless the incoming package includes center Ben Wallace, a choice between guards Ben Gordon and Kirk Hinrich, and others.
> 
> But when the Chicago Tribune reported that Bryant wants to play with Wallace, it meant the Bulls would have to change the package to perhaps include Tyrus Thomas or Joakim Noah, forward Andres Nocioni and a first-round pick.
> 
> Word is the Lakers are very interested in Nocioni, a former Argentine star who averaged 14.1 points and 5.7 rebounds for Chicago last season. But by rule, he can't be traded until after Dec. 15.
> 
> There also has been speculation in Chicago the Bulls want to find out how good this team will be before making a major trade.
> 
> So it looks as if Lakers fans will be able to cheer Bryant for at least a few more weeks.


Nocioni, Gordon & Noah for Kobe

let's make it HAPPEN dammit


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*

G Hinrich / Duhon
G Bryant / Sefolosha
F Deng / Khyrapa
F Smith / Thomas
C Wallace / Gray

= ECF


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*

I do not think that will work under trade checker.

The following deals work after Dec 15th, assuming we keep Joe Smith for frontcourt depth and experience.

Gordon, Noce, Duhon, Thomas for Kobe
Gordon, Noce, Duhon, Noah, and Viktor for Kobe.

Its Thomas or (Noah and Viktor) for salaries to match

I choose the latter as I want to keep Thomas. We get a depleted bench but our starting line up is amazing.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*

Yeah, if it's between TT and Noah, I'd have to go with TT

He's a pretty good passer, his B-Ball IQ is raising, shot is improving and he's the one between the 2 that has the most ALL-STAR potential.

I think Kobe will be a Bull this season

I'm also ok with TT & Gray being our future frontcourt. Too many of these defensive types are becoming redundant.


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*

I think Pax pulls the trigger on either of the deals I listed earlier. We know he was shopping Duhon. He has always wanted a superstar at the right price. I assume Pax would do Deal 1 if we need to (as would I), but Ty has too much talent to give him up (vs Noah).

I say Kobe is a Bull near XMas if we are doing well but not leading the conference. Pax may see that as the chance to win the East and win a ring this year and possibly for the next few. I think Kobe gives us a 4-5 year window.


----------



## Mr.Montross

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*

Nocioni is BYC


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> That's coming out of California, K4E. I know it's strange. Maybe this is because the Lakers realize it's almost impossible to trade Kobe to the Bulls without Wallace (before Dec 15), as I've been saying for quite some time. I agree, he's not an ideal fit for that team.



Yah, I was pretty surprised to read that after my post from this morning.

The funny thing is, I think the trade with Wallace involved makes the Bulls a poorer "win now" candidate, but you have to consider that deal as well.

I also read that Kobe didn’t want to go to Chicago if Wallace wasn’t around so it may nix that idea.


----------



## SALO

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

Kobe looked like he was pulling a Vince Carter last night. 

DMD, that's the second article to come out showing the Lakers interest in Wallace. Another report had them asking for at least two of Hinrich, Gordon, & Wallace. 

Wallace & Gordon would be the perfect trade for us. We would probably ask for Mihm or Cook to add another big to our rotation, and them getting Wallace back means they'd likely dump a big anyway. Wallace would eat a lot of minutes.

If we did Wallace & Gordon & Thabo then we should try to get Maurice Evans along with Kobe. Evans is a fantastic athlete, a big SG, and a decent spot up shooter. I liked his energy off the bench when he played for the Kings.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



Mr.Montross said:


> Nocioni is BYC


Yeah, later in the article, the author mentions that Noch can't be deal until the 15th.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

no way, thabo stays


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*

Maybe Kobe would reconsider playing with Wallace... I'd be pretty happy if we could trade him to get Kobe.


----------



## BenDengGo

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*

my ideal trade would be
kobe

for

gordon
wallace
(duhon)
(nocioni)
2 first round pick


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*

Kobe, who is by the way is NOT a Chicago Bull, is already deciding who he wants to play with on our team? Kobe isn't the GM of either the Bulls or the Lakers. I don't mind him specifying where he will play (family, marketing, etc.) but it's over the line when he is trying to decide team makeup. That's Skiles and Paxson's jobs alone.

I'm sure Kobe took a similar approach about Shaq that caused him to be traded. He shouldn't have any input in the choice of who stays, who goes, who's on the team and who's not.

Let's say Kobe doesn't like defense first and the hustle chemistry of our team? Will he tell Skiles which offense and defense to run? 

The only way Kobe will be the next MJ in this town is if he says, "I want to come to Chicago. I want to return a championship to this city. If that means I average 18 ppg and play top notch defense, sobeit. Stats mean nothing to me. Individuality means nothing to me. I'll do whatever it takes." He has never shown this.

That's what made MJ great. He sacrificed his immense individual game and all he ever talked about was winning and leading and making the Bulls better. Kobe is a selfish EDIT. He could certainly change that about himself, but will he?


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



lougehrig said:


> Kobe, who is by the way is NOT a Chicago Bull, is already deciding who he wants to play with on our team? Kobe isn't the GM of either the Bulls or the Lakers. I don't mind him specifying where he will play (family, marketing, etc.) but it's over the line when he is trying to decide team makeup. That's Skiles and Paxson's jobs alone.
> 
> I'm sure Kobe took a similar approach about Shaq that caused him to be traded. He shouldn't have any input in the choice of who stays, who goes, who's on the team and who's not.
> 
> Let's say Kobe doesn't like defense first and the hustle chemistry of our team? Will he tell Skiles which offense and defense to run?
> 
> The only way Kobe will be the next MJ in this town is if he says, "I want to come to Chicago. I want to return a championship to this city. If that means I average 18 ppg and play top notch defense, sobeit. Stats mean nothing to me. Individuality means nothing to me. I'll do whatever it takes." He has never shown this.
> 
> That's what made MJ great. He sacrificed his immense individual game and all he ever talked about was winning and leading and making the Bulls better. Kobe is a selfish ***hole. He could certainly change that about himself, but will he?


Kobe is one of a few players in the league that has a no trade clause, so he does have some powers to dictate where he goes. If he knows the trade to a team takes away a player he likes, he can veto it.

I have this feeling the trade would have been done already if we didn't have a few players that can't be dealt for a few months. I like the looks of some of the post Dec 15 deals better, but frankly, I am not looking forward to this hanging over our team's head until then.


----------



## The 6ft Hurdle

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



The ROY said:


> ocregister.com
> 
> http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/48724/20071024/lakers_high_on_nocioni/
> 
> 
> 
> Nocioni, Gordon & Noah for Kobe
> 
> let's make it HAPPEN dammit


Gordon and Noc are the two guys who I've thought really have made playoff waves and often made the difference between winning and losing. I like Joakim because he has the potential to be one of those guys as well.

If this were to happen, I would actually have reason to watch the Lakers more often.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



lougehrig said:


> The only way Kobe will be the next MJ in this town is if he says, "I want to come to Chicago. I want to return a championship to this city. If that means I average 18 ppg and play top notch defense, sobeit. Stats mean nothing to me. Individuality means nothing to me. I'll do whatever it takes." He has never shown this.
> 
> That's what made MJ great. He sacrificed his immense individual game and all he ever talked about was winning and leading and making the Bulls better. Kobe is a selfish ***hole. He could certainly change that about himself, but will he?


scoring titles were actually a big deal to mj. but whatever. legend over reality.


----------



## SALO

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



MikeDC said:


> Maybe Kobe would reconsider playing with Wallace... I'd be pretty happy if we could trade him to get Kobe.


My thoughts exactly. I honestly don't want to include either Thomas or Noah. We would regret it. Those guys will be getting better each and every season while Wallace will just continue to decline.

It appears Kobe is the one blocking the inclusion of Wallace, not the Lakers. Let's hope Pax could sell Kobe on the readiness of our youth and how we could still win without Big Ben. Maybe Pax could point out some of those online 'statistics' that shows how much better we are when Wallace is on the bench. 

If we could get Mihm or Cook back in the deal, and convince PJ Brown or some other vet still out there such as Keith Van Horn to come play with Kobe, I think we could get by this year, challenge for the Eastern Conference title, and be a MLE/LLE signing a year from now from winning the whole thing.


----------



## Jib Meister

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



kflo said:


> scoring titles were actually a big deal to mj. but whatever. legend over reality.


+1


----------



## Rhyder

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



SALO said:


> My thoughts exactly. I honestly don't want to include either Thomas or Noah. We would regret it. Those guys will be getting better each and every season while Wallace will just continue to decline.


Let's say Ben Wallace is an 90 and declining by 2 every season. Lets also say Tyrus is a 70 and increasing by 3 every season.

Season 1
Wallace 90
Thomas 70

Season 2
Wallace 88
Thomas 73

Season 3
Wallace 86
Thomas 76

Season 4
Wallace 84
Thomas 79

Season 5
Wallace 82
Thomas 82

In this example it takes Thomas 4 years before Thomas reaches Wallace's level. You also have to factor in that Wallace played at a higher level than Thomas in each of the first four years.

Point being, just because Wallace is declining and Thomas is rising does not mean you want to get rid of the guy on the decline.

I see this type of logic in the equity markets all the time. g (earnings growth) starts slowing from some growth company, therefore crush the multiple because earnings are going to zero, never mind the fact that g is still positive. Professionals managing hundreds of millions of dollars do not understand the difference between the first and second derivative (or choose to ignore it).


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



BenDengGo said:


> my ideal trade would be
> kobe
> 
> for
> 
> gordon
> wallace
> (duhon)
> (nocioni)
> 2 first round pick


As a Bulls fan I would not do that deal


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



theanimal23 said:


> As a Bulls fan I would not do that deal


of course u wouldn't...which shows u actually have SENSE lol

that deal is ridiculous


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



kflo said:


> scoring titles were actually a big deal to mj. but whatever. legend over reality.


From 1991-1998 scoring titles mattered to MJ? Do you have evidence of this? I followed the team pretty closely during this time and I don't recall this once. Perception over reality.


----------



## Bulldozer

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

Here's my take on this potential trade:

Ben Gordon birth year: 1983
Ben Wallace birth year: 1974
(1983 + 1974 / 2 = *1978*

Kobe Bryant birth year: *1978 *

Why do I bring this up? Well, first and foremost, it will cancel out the potential regret in losing a player like Gordon, 5 years younger than KB who's a great scorer (26 ppg per 40 min) on the rise. The age group of the team remains balanced, not going younger or older but a perfect blend with our current group. So, we extend KB and he gets the money that BG would have recieved + at the same time, the Bulls could get rid of the (unfortunately) old/overrated Ben Wallace and his big contract. But most importantly, we'd get to keep our two young bigs, IMO we have to keep both these guys if we can. Smith, Noah, TT, Noc and Gray is a more than adequate frontcourt rotation. Hope someone convinces KB that we can do without Wallace, if in fact its true he prefers Big Ben playing alongside him.

Hinrich
Bryant
Deng/Noc
TT/Noah/Noc
Smith/Noah/Gray


----------



## Sith

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

Let's not kid ourself, Wallace WILL NOT be included in the trade for Kobe. As much as we want to believe what the articles are saying, it just doesn't make sense for both teams. What's the point of givingup youngsters for a 29year old superstar then dump Ben wallace? and what's the point of giving up Bryant for Youngsters and get back a 33 year old defensive guy? 

Bottom line, like I said before, nothing will happen between now and Dec 15th, when Noc and Smith can both be included in the trades for salary purpose. As of right now, we have nobody to trade for Kobe that makes the salary match. 

It also gives us some time to find out how good this team really is and how much young players like Deng/Gordon/Tyrus have improved over the summer. Who knows, maybe by Dec15th, Tyrus might totally blossom into someone untouchable. I think by Dec15th, if we are sitting at something like 10-8 record, and none of the youngsters show any significant improvment, Paxson will pull the trigger for Kobe. 

The deal will probably be something like Gordon+Tyrus or Noah + Noc +Picks or duhon. Other type of deals don't make sense for both teams.


----------



## LoyalBull

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



lougehrig said:


> From 1991-1998 scoring titles mattered to MJ? Do you have evidence of this? I followed the team pretty closely during this time and I don't recall this once. Perception over reality.



I remember in a video (not sure if it was a championship vid or a Jordan vid) Jordan comments that "it drove him crazy that people said that a scoring champion couldn't also be a champion"... 

I took that to assume that it WAS something that was important to him to prove false to people.


----------



## O2K

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

jordan did say that he wanted to prove to people that a scoring champion can win a championship.

jordan wasn't exactly the definition of a great team player.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

If Kobe wasn't such a POS that I wanted nothing to do with, Both Bens and Nocioni for him would work for me. Ben will never be half the player the rapist is, Big Ben is over-priced and over-rated, and unless Nocioni gets back to where he was pre-plantar fasciutis (sp?) he isn't worth a damn either. We'd definitely get the better end of that deal. It is possible I suppose that Wallace could improve this year due to familiarity, but I doubt it.


----------



## DengNabbit

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



The ROY said:


> of course u wouldn't...which shows u actually have SENSE lol
> 
> that deal is ridiculous



This is going to seem nitpicky, but it has to be said. Addressing the text/IM generation: the use of "u" as a replacement for "you" completely undercuts the point you are going to make, and reveals age.

As you were.


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



O2K said:


> jordan wasn't exactly the definition of a great team player.


:jawdrop: You're joking right? You truly undervalue MJ with a statement like that. 
That's what made MJ greatness and everything Kobe is not.

9-Time NBA Defensive First team and former Defensive Player of the Year also contradicts this ridiculous statement. MJ is considered one of the top 5 defensive players in NBA history. Not sure if you noticed, the Bulls won championships with defense. Team defense. Led by MJ.

So in the 1993 Finals, MJ acts as decoy and Paxson hits the winning three point.

In 1996 Finals, MJ passes to Kerr (predetermined by the way) and he hits the winning shot.

Don't you think Kobe would have taken (forced) those shots for the Lakers?


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



LoyalBull said:


> I remember in a video (not sure if it was a championship vid or a Jordan vid) Jordan comments that "it drove him crazy that people said that a scoring champion couldn't also be a champion"...
> 
> I took that to assume that it WAS something that was important to him to prove false to people.


You're missing the point. Kobe cares about scoring 81 points and averaging 35 ppg. MJ cares about winning. If winning means MJ averages 30 ppg and shoots 0.500% from the field instead of scoring 35 ppg, then he'd do it. If winning meant averaging 30 ppg and leading the league in scoring sobeit.

Kobe leads the league in scoring, the Lakers have 42-40 and 45-37 record and two first round playoff losses. If Kobe increased his shooting to 0.500%, decreased his scoring to 25 ppg, increased his assists to 8.5 per game, increased his defense to All-NBA first team (all things he is fully capable of), the Lakers would be a much, much better team. If he is willing to do this for the Bulls great, if not, no thanks.


----------



## Eternal

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



lougehrig said:


> You're missing the point. Kobe cares about scoring 81 points and averaging 35 ppg. MJ cares about winning. If winning means MJ averages 30 ppg and shoots 0.500% from the field instead of scoring 35 ppg, then he'd do it. If winning meant averaging 30 ppg and leading the league in scoring sobeit.
> 
> Kobe leads the league in scoring, the Lakers have 42-40 and 45-37 record and two first round playoff losses. If Kobe increased his shooting to 0.500%, decreased his scoring to 25 ppg, increased his assists to 8.5 per game, increased his defense to All-NBA first team (all things he is fully capable of), the Lakers would be a much, much better team. If he is willing to do this for the Bulls great, if not, no thanks.


Yeah... and when he didn't lead the league in scoring the Lakers didn't even have a winning record and missed the playoffs without Shaq.

I really think you need to learn more about Kobe, rather then talking this nonsense. Did you watch the 81 point game? The Lakers were getting killed, until Kobe caught on fire and took the game over. Kobe cares alot more about winning then you think he does.


----------



## Sith

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

I'm a bulls fan, but i'm sick of people disrepcting Kobe as a player. I don't care if you disrepect him off the court, but on the court, it's dumb to even question Kobe bryant's ability as a basketball player. the man is simply the most talented, best player right now in the NBA. no questions. He has everything u want in a basketball player on the court. screw the team /selfish player, it's really overrated and blown out of porportion. MJ was even more selfish than Kobe on the court. 
If I were Paxson, I would do anything i possibly can to bring Kobe to Chicago. Obviously giving up too much is not a option, but Paxson should be sleepless at nights right now exploring ideas/packages to bring Kobe to chicago without gutting the entire team.


----------



## O2K

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



lougehrig said:


> :jawdrop: You're joking right? You truly undervalue MJ with a statement like that.
> That's what made MJ greatness and everything Kobe is not.
> 
> 9-Time NBA Defensive First team and former Defensive Player of the Year also contradicts this ridiculous statement. MJ is considered one of the top 5 defensive players in NBA history. Not sure if you noticed, the Bulls won championships with defense. Team defense. Led by MJ.
> 
> So in the 1993 Finals, MJ acts as decoy and Paxson hits the winning three point.
> 
> In 1996 Finals, MJ passes to Kerr (predetermined by the way) and he hits the winning shot.
> 
> Don't you think Kobe would have taken (forced) those shots for the Lakers?


Jordan is imo the greatest player ever. His individual talent and drive was amazing. He hated losing which is why he passed the ball for the last shot. But that doesn't necessarily make him a great teammate. Jordan also punched out steve kerr in practice. I believe there was a thread about this very thing that had all these quotables by jordan which give you more insight into jordan. The jordan you see on tv isn't necessarily the jordan in the locker room. Basketball wise, he's the greatest ever, but it stops there.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



theanimal23 said:


> As a Bulls fan I would not do that deal


I think he meant:
gordon
wallace
duhon OR nocioni
2 first round picks

I think they'd pick Nocioni, given rumors in the press. Let's face it, the two first round picks aren't going to be very good -- even if Kobe is injured and doesn't play. Still, I think they should settle for 1 pick if they take Duhon, and a 2nd round pick if they take Nocioni. Alternatively, they could send Cook our way to make up for he loss of two bigs.


----------



## KDOS

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

A lot of Bulls fans says a lot of negative things about Kobe with pure conviction. LOL.


I guarantee all of you that once Kobe becomes a Bull, each and every poster in this board who has insulted him, will sing nothing but high praises on # 24 when all is said and done.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> I guarantee all of you that once Kobe becomes a Bull, each and every poster in this board who has insulted him, will sing nothing but high praises on # 24 when all is said and done.


I'm singing praises now.

Jeez... if we can really have Hinrich, Kobe and Deng at the 1,2,3, along with giving up only 1 of Wallace/Noah/TT... ****e... good times ahead.


----------



## KDOS

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



kukoc4ever said:


> I'm singing praises now.
> 
> Jeez... if we can really have Hirich, Kobe and Deng at the 1,2,3, along with giving up only 1 of Wallace/Noah/TT... ****e... good times ahead.


Haha. Word man. I think all Kobe needs is a better supporting cast, and well the Bulls could really use a player of Kobe's calibre.

Good times ahead indeed...at least for Bulls fans.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



Rhyder said:


> Let's say Ben Wallace is an 90 and declining by 2 every season. Lets also say Tyrus is a 70 and increasing by 3 every season.
> 
> Season 1
> Wallace 90
> Thomas 70
> 
> Season 2
> Wallace 88
> Thomas 73
> 
> Season 3
> Wallace 86
> Thomas 76
> 
> Season 4
> Wallace 84
> Thomas 79
> 
> Season 5
> Wallace 82
> Thomas 82
> 
> In this example it takes Thomas 4 years before Thomas reaches Wallace's level. You also have to factor in that Wallace played at a higher level than Thomas in each of the first four years.
> 
> Point being, just because Wallace is declining and Thomas is rising does not mean you want to get rid of the guy on the decline.
> 
> I see this type of logic in the equity markets all the time. g (earnings growth) starts slowing from some growth company, therefore crush the multiple because earnings are going to zero, never mind the fact that g is still positive. Professionals managing hundreds of millions of dollars do not understand the difference between the first and second derivative (or choose to ignore it).


Tyrus = 70+3t
Ben = 90-2t

In your example what's the second derivative? 

The functional form matters... suppose it's something like
Tyrus = 70+3t<super>3</super>
Ben = 90-2t<super>3</super>


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



Eternal said:


> I really think you need to learn more about Kobe, rather then talking this nonsense.


What's the learn? He's a great scorer who could be the best overall player in the game. He isn't right now and looks more selfish than ever. He's an MJ wannabe. Maybe he should have his own legacy. If he's selfish we don't want him in Chicago. You can have him in LA. Enjoy the years of mediocrity ahead.

For all those who idolize Kobe for some reason, why hasn't he put it all together? Why is he still struggling to be a good leader? Why is he still whining? Why is his own team fed up with his crap? Why was Shaq fed up with his crap? 

Prime example of Kobe being Kobe:

Game 7 of the 2006 First Round against Phoenix. Kobe took three shots in the entire second half. Where was the killer spirit? Where was the 81 point Kobe there? Seemed like he quit on his team, his fans, his coach. You want a winner and a leader and you get a moody, whiny child who pouts when things don't go his way. Wow...can't wait until game 7 and Kobe gets into one of his moods and decides to pack it in. We're gonna wish we kept Noc, Gordon, Noah who are fighters.

As for learning about the great Kobe Bryant, read some comments from people who were less than impressed with Kobe's efforts in that game.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2438021


----------



## magohaydz

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> A lot of Bulls fans says a lot of negative things about Kobe with pure conviction. LOL.
> 
> 
> I guarantee all of you that once Kobe becomes a Bull, each and every poster in this board who has insulted him, will sing nothing but high praises on # 24 when all is said and done.


If Tyrus gives him the #24 Jersey! :biggrin:


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> A lot of Bulls fans says a lot of negative things about Kobe with pure conviction. LOL.
> 
> 
> I guarantee all of you that once Kobe becomes a Bull, each and every poster in this board who has insulted him, will sing nothing but high praises on # 24 when all is said and done.


If he grows up and leads us to a championship I will.

If he acts like the selfish ***hole he is now, I won't.

If he leads us to fist round playoff losses every year while leading the league in scoring, I most definitely won't.


----------



## mgolding

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> Substitute Khryapa for Thomas and LA has a deal :
> Lakers Get:
> Hinrich
> Nocioni
> Khryapa
> Chicagos 1st 2008 Pick
> 
> Bulls Get:
> Kobe


Why on earth would the lakers do this? They would be one of the worst teams in the NBA with no great development to be expected from any of the guys the Bulls give them. Krapper gives them nothing, the pick will be in the 20s, you have to add Thomas or Noah, which the Bulls can cover

I dont think Gordons got value (which he will see when he's a RFA) without a guy like Hinrich who can help cover his deficiencies both defensively and offensively. This is why I keep stating that Hinrich or Deng has to be involved to get Kobe.


----------



## Sith

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



lougehrig said:


> If he grows up and leads us to a championship I will.
> 
> If he acts like the selfish ***hole he is now, I won't.
> 
> If he leads us to fist round playoff losses every year while leading the league in scoring, I most definitely won't.



Please dude, do us a favor and stop posting about kobe on this board. [strike]you have no clues about basketball. your comments are bringing down the basketball IQ of all of the posters here at bb.net.[/strike] Uncalled for. - KJ


----------



## Sith

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



mgolding said:


> McBulls said:
> 
> 
> 
> Substitute Khryapa for Thomas and LA has a deal :
> Lakers Get:
> Hinrich
> Nocioni
> Khryapa
> Chicagos 1st 2008 Pick
> 
> Bulls Get:
> Kobe
> QUOTE]
> 
> Why on earth would the lakers do this? They would be one of the worst teams in the NBA with no great development to be expected from any of the guys the Bulls give them. Krapper gives them nothing, the pick will be in the 20s, you have to add Thomas or Noah, which the Bulls can cover
> 
> I dont think Gordons got value (which he will see when he's a RFA) without a guy like Hinrich who can help cover his deficiencies both defensively and offensively. This is why I keep stating that Hinrich or Deng has to be involved to get Kobe.
> 
> 
> 
> I would give up both gordon+kirk for Kobe easily if we don't lose any of the bigs. Duhon can easily start at the PG alongside kobe.
Click to expand...


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



Sith said:


> Please dude, do us a favor and stop posting about kobe on this board. [strike]you have no clues about basketball. your comments are bringing down the basketball IQ of all of the posters here at bb.net.[/strike] Uncalled for. - KJ


Thanks. We basketball fans who support the Bulls appreciate the strikethrough here. 

Kobe criticism is to be expected. He's a great player who hasn't had the smoothest careers in NBA history. It's not expected that Kobe is going to free of criticism like some of the truly great players in NBA history such as MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, West, Baylor, Russell. One day he might earn that respect, but not yet.


----------



## magohaydz

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

seriously, has anyone taken into account that Kobe may not have all that many years left in him at the top of his game?


----------



## mgolding

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



lougehrig said:


> Thanks. We basketball fans who support the Bulls appreciate the strikethrough here.


What are we communists? Freedom of speech people. Let us make up their own mind as to whether someone is going to far. Cut out swearing, fine, children can view the site, but don't cut out people expressing their views whether they're agreeable or not.


Thanks, but the moderators will handle the moderation. The rules are what they are, and personal attacks don't fly. -jnrjr79


----------



## Eternal

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



lougehrig said:


> What's the learn? He's a great scorer who could be the best overall player in the game. He isn't right now and looks more selfish than ever. He's an MJ wannabe. Maybe he should have his own legacy. If he's selfish we don't want him in Chicago. You can have him in LA. Enjoy the years of mediocrity ahead.
> 
> For all those who idolize Kobe for some reason, why hasn't he put it all together? Why is he still struggling to be a good leader? Why is he still whining? Why is his own team fed up with his crap? Why was Shaq fed up with his crap?
> 
> Prime example of Kobe being Kobe:
> 
> Game 7 of the 2006 First Round against Phoenix. Kobe took three shots in the entire second half. Where was the killer spirit? Where was the 81 point Kobe there? Seemed like he quit on his team, his fans, his coach. You want a winner and a leader and you get a moody, whiny child who pouts when things don't go his way. Wow...can't wait until game 7 and Kobe gets into one of his moods and decides to pack it in. We're gonna wish we kept Noc, Gordon, Noah who are fighters.
> 
> As for learning about the great Kobe Bryant, read some comments from people who were less than impressed with Kobe's efforts in that game.
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2438021



That link is from ESPN.... =\ I don't read ESPN, as it's a horrible source.


----------



## Eternal

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



magohaydz said:


> If Tyrus gives him the #24 Jersey! :biggrin:


That's a good point, I wonder if Kobe would want the #24 if he is traded to Bulls. He may want #10, like he wore on Team USA. If he does want #24 I wonder if Tyrus would give it to him or not.


----------



## Salvaged Ship

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

People who call Bryant selfish need to remember he is not exactly loaded with talent around him. Is the Lakers best chance to win Kobe shooting quite a bit, or is it Kobe passing off to Walton and Turiaf....


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



mgolding said:


> Why on earth would the lakers do this? They would be one of the worst teams in the NBA with no great development to be expected from any of the guys the Bulls give them. Krapper gives them nothing, the pick will be in the 20s, you have to add Thomas or Noah, which the Bulls can cover
> 
> I dont think Gordons got value (which he will see when he's a RFA) without a guy like Hinrich who can help cover his deficiencies both defensively and offensively. This is why I keep stating that Hinrich or Deng has to be involved to get Kobe.


Frankly, my suggestion was a reaction to the too often habit of suggesting Noah or Thomas as "throw ins" in a Kobe trade.

There's an old saying that you never trade big for small in basketball. So, when someone just throws in Noah or Thomas in this trade along with one or two of our starters... 

I'm provoked. Kobe can't win without a great front line. The experiment has been done. Only a fool would trade the future front line of the Bulls for the next decade for a guy who will be worn out in less than half that time.


----------



## DANNY

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> Frankly, my suggestion was a reaction to the too often habit of suggesting Noah or Thomas as "throw ins" in a Kobe trade.
> 
> There's an old saying that you never trade big for small in basketball. So, when someone just throws in Noah or Thomas in this trade along with one or two of our starters...
> 
> I'm provoked. Kobe can't win without a great front line. The experiment has been done. Only a fool would trade the future front line of the Bulls for the next decade for a guy who will be worn out in less than half that time.


two mediocre players as your future front line. here comes the championship banners!


----------



## Eternal

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> Frankly, my suggestion was a reaction to the too often habit of suggesting Noah or Thomas as "throw ins" in a Kobe trade.
> 
> There's an old saying that you never trade big for small in basketball. So, when someone just throws in Noah or Thomas in this trade along with one or two of our starters...
> 
> I'm provoked. Kobe can't win without a great front line. The experiment has been done. Only a fool would trade the future front line of the Bulls for the next decade for a guy who will be worn out in less than half that time.


I'm lost by this. Kobe has proven he can win... without a great front line if you mean in terms of a winning record. If you mean championships well then no...

How can you say Kobe can't win without a great front line, when he's never had anything great around him since Shaq left? You can't single handedly win a championship yourself. You need to have a good supporting cast to be able to make some noise in the playoffs. Kobe has had a decent player, but not great in Odom, and a bunch of players that wouldnt be starters anywhere else.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



Eternal said:


> I'm lost by this. Kobe has proven he can win... without a great front line if you mean in terms of a winning record. If you mean championships well then no...


Hate to be Bulls-centric, but this is a Bulls board. The Bulls have a winning team without Kobe. The only reason to make a trade is to get better. Teams without quality front lines don't win championships. That includes LA. 

The idea that there are no superstars on the current Bulls team is a little premature. There are several possible stars, and one possible superstar -- Tyrus Thomas. I'm not saying he's off limits, but I doubt you want to trade Kobe for him straight up. Noah may never be a superstar, but you can't have him either. But you can have Nocioni, Wallace or Smith.



> How can you say Kobe can't win without a great front line, when he's never had anything great around him since Shaq left? You can't single handedly win a championship yourself. You need to have a good supporting cast to be able to make some noise in the playoffs. Kobe has had a decent player, but not great in Odom, and a bunch of players that wouldnt be starters anywhere else.


 He can't win a championship without a great front line. No guard can. Right now, the Bulls are good enough to go to the finals without Kobe. If they give up their future front line, they will never win it all. Better to take our chances without him.


----------



## Drewbs

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



lougehrig said:


> What's the learn? He's a great scorer who could be the best overall player in the game. He isn't right now and looks more selfish than ever. He's an MJ wannabe. Maybe he should have his own legacy. If he's selfish we don't want him in Chicago. You can have him in LA. Enjoy the years of mediocrity ahead.
> 
> For all those who idolize Kobe for some reason, why hasn't he put it all together? Why is he still struggling to be a good leader? Why is he still whining? Why is his own team fed up with his crap? Why was Shaq fed up with his crap?
> 
> Prime example of Kobe being Kobe:
> 
> Game 7 of the 2006 First Round against Phoenix. Kobe took three shots in the entire second half. Where was the killer spirit? Where was the 81 point Kobe there? Seemed like he quit on his team, his fans, his coach. You want a winner and a leader and you get a moody, whiny child who pouts when things don't go his way. Wow...can't wait until game 7 and Kobe gets into one of his moods and decides to pack it in. We're gonna wish we kept Noc, Gordon, Noah who are fighters.
> 
> As for learning about the great Kobe Bryant, read some comments from people who were less than impressed with Kobe's efforts in that game.
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2438021


Really? I remember distinctly there was a game Jordan played during the EC playoffs against Detroit where he only took something like 3 shots in that game, which they lost btw.


----------



## KDOS

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



magohaydz said:


> If Tyrus gives him the #24 Jersey! :biggrin:


That should'nt really be a problem you know. Kobe can easily ask the Bulls to ship Tyrus to LA if he gives him a hard time about the jersey number. :biggrin:


----------



## Simpleton

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



magohaydz said:


> seriously, has anyone taken into account that Kobe may not have all that many years left in him at the top of his game?


MJ was still putting up 28-30 points when he was in his early to mid 30's, Bryant is only 29 and would probably give us at least 4 years and possibly up to 6 of elite play.

Now, not to say Bryant is Jordan, and there is also the fact that Bryant will have played more seasons at the same age as Jordan because he came into the league at a younger age, but it's probably a decent basis for comparison.

As an aside, if the principles of a deal are Gordon, Nocioni and only one of Tyrus/Noah, we more or less have to do it.

We all love the players we've assembled, but the fact remains that you need an elite player to win a championship. Now, we can all wish upon a star that Deng or Thomas turns into a top 10 player, and maybe one of them will down the road, but if we could have arguably the best player in the league right now, for that price, how can you turn that down?


----------



## Eternal

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> Hate to be Bulls-centric, but this is a Bulls board. The Bulls have a winning team without Kobe. The only reason to make a trade is to get better. Teams without quality front lines don't win championships. That includes LA.
> 
> The idea that there are no superstars on the current Bulls team is a little premature. There are several possible stars, and one possible superstar -- Tyrus Thomas. I'm not saying he's off limits, but I doubt you want to trade Kobe for him straight up. Noah may never be a superstar, but you can't have him either. But you can have Nocioni, Wallace or Smith.
> 
> He can't win a championship without a great front line. No guard can. Right now, the Bulls are good enough to go to the finals without Kobe. If they give up their future front line, they will never win it all. Better to take our chances without him.


I disagree with the Bulls being able to win a championship without a great front line with Kobe Bryant. As long as they have decent bigs they have a good/great shot at winning it all. Of course the team I'm thinking of includes Hinrich and Deng.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



Simpleton said:


> MJ was still putting up 28-30 points when he was in his early to mid 30's, Bryant is only 29 and would probably give us at least 4 years and possibly up to 6 of elite play.
> 
> Now, not to say Bryant is Jordan, and there is also the fact that Bryant will have played more seasons at the same age as Jordan because he came into the league at a younger age, but it's probably a decent basis for comparison.
> 
> As an aside, if the principles of a deal are Gordon, Nocioni and only one of Tyrus/Noah, we more or less have to do it.
> 
> We all love the players we've assembled, but the fact remains that you need an elite player to win a championship. Now, we can all wish upon a star that Deng or Thomas turns into a top 10 player, and maybe one of them will down the road, but if we could have arguably the best player in the league right now, for that price, how can you turn that down?


And in two years when Wallace and Smith are in decline or finished, what then? The Bulls will have no quality bigs to defend the middle, rebound or provide inside scoring other than Noah and Gray. They will have a payroll over the luxury tax threshold and no draft picks. Maybe that will be enough, but it's apretty big risk.


----------



## Simpleton

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> And in two years when Wallace and Smith are in decline or finished, what then? The Bulls will have no quality bigs to defend the middle, rebound or provide inside scoring other than Noah and Gray. They will have a payroll over the luxury tax threshold and no draft picks. Maybe that will be enough, but it's apretty big risk.


Sign a vet big or two with the freed up money from Wallace and Smith going off the books?

Smith only has a 2 year deal total and Wallace has just 2 years left after this season.

It's a calculated risk for sure, but are we really going to let Tyrus Thomas or Joakim Noah keep us from getting Bryant?

There comes a point when always looking to and worrying about the future starts to handicap you in the present, and if we let one potentially good, albeit very raw player keep us from getting Bryant, that may be the case.

We all want Thomas to be the key to our frontcourt for years, and I have very high hopes for him, but what happens if he turns out to be just Kenyon Martin, or even worse, Stromile Swift. Even if he does turn into a Martin, are we really a strong championship contender?

I'm going to have to see a hell of alot of progress from him for me to turn down a Bryant trade because of him, and that's even assuming we can't get the deal done with Noah instead of Tyrus, which I'd hope we could.

We'd have a 3 year window with Hinrich, Deng, Bryant and Wallace, to go along with a few complimentary players like Sefolosha, Noah/Tyrus and Gray, as well as Smith for 2 years. Throw in a couple other bit players like Duhon/Griffin (maybe not technically them since their deals aren't for too much longer, but someone like them) and we'd have a decent shot to not just make the finals, but win it.

I also tend to think Paxson is an excellent GM and would be able to field a more than competitive team based around a core of Hinrich, Bryant and Deng with complimentary guys like Noah/Tyrus, Sefolosha and possibly Gray, once the time comes for Wallace to leave.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

I can't believe Rhyder and I's back and forth about calculus and mathematical modeling spawned this many edited posts :clown:

Not looking at any other factors, just my independent "willingness" to not have them, my order for who I want to see go is something like:
1. Wallace - I'm not a huge fan. I think at this point he's pretty over-rated and doesn't have that much left in the tank. His salary going out absorbs most of Kobe's coming in, and I think if we could keep around Thomas, Noah, Smith and Noc, we'd be good enough up front with Kobe for quite a while.

2. Gordon - I am a huge fan of Gordon, but let's face it, he's mostly a SG and Kobe's mostly a SG. He's the obvious guy to trade for many many reasons.

3. Thomas - I'm very on the fence about Thomas. He seems to have a lot more questions and a bit less intensity than I thought when he was my pre-draft fav. If we can get good value for him (I don't think we can otherwise), I'd be willing to have someone else worry about how he'll develop.

5. Nocioni - I like Noc a whole lot, and think playing next to Kobe, even as a short 4, would make him _more_ effective as a player. But the bottom line is he's paid a lot and mans positions we're pretty deep at with Deng, Thomas, Thabo, Noah and Smith.

6. Hinrich - Again, I'm a big fan of Hinrich, and I think a Hinrich/Bryant backcourt is a wickedly strong one defensively. On the other hand, Kirk's never really been a pure PG, he's a streaky shooter, and a fair amount of his utility is that he's a relatively good match with Ben Gordon, who I expect goes in any Kobe trade. At the same time, I think Duhon is a quality player, especially with the right fit, and Kobe is a very good fit next to him, allowing Duhon to be a pure PG type, at which he's better than Hinrich. On the other hand, Duhon's shooting makes Kirk's shooting look positively steady, so given the choice, I'd still rather go with Kirk.

---------------------------

I know Deng has been said to be off-limits, but I'd easily consider a Deng for Kobe trade. Despite the talk this summer, Deng's shown no evidence of developing a 3 point shot.

People really pining for Kobe should consider what the Bulls would look like with the damn ball in Kobe's hands for big parts of the game. Can Gordon play with him? I'm iffy. Are any of Deng, Kirk or Chris the kind of shooters you'd want to put with Bryant. Kirk is pretty close to it, but he's streaky. Noc would look really good with him, I think. Chris... when Chris' head is right. 

Deng... I'm not convinced. Why did MJ work so well with Scottie? Well, Scottie wasn't a great shooter, but he was a competent shooter from distance. And he was practically a PG playing from the 3 spot. Look at Deng, and as wonderful a player as he is, those are the two biggest areas of relative weakness in his offensive game.

Gordon, I said I'm iffy about him with Kobe. Gordon, as the CNNSI article said the other day, does appear to have a scorer's mindset to me. He's always been best with the ball in his hands. Is he as effective or happy with Kobe? If I had to guess, I'd say no. Not because he physically couldn't do wonderfully, but because the evidence shows that's not how he plays. Can Kobe work well at the 3? I really don't know that the answers to any of those questions are yes.

On the other hand, let's put things this way. *If I was purely looking at developing a team that had the best , most compatible offensive capability and was the scariest to play, I'd want 4 of my 5 starters to be* *Gordon, Hinrich, Kobe and Nocioni, with Wallace or Noah at the 5 spot*.

That would leave Deng, Thomas, Smith, Duhon and Thabo as the tradable guys.


----------



## narek

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



MikeDC said:


> I can't believe Rhyder and I's back and forth about calculus and mathematical modeling spawned this many edited posts :clown:


Stat fights are the worst kind, Mike.


----------



## ChiSox

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

The Bulls are a team full of great role players. We don't have a star. I really like Deng but will he become one of the top 10 player in the league? I don't believe he will. History shows it is rare for a team to win a Championship without a great player. In the last 30 years there have been only a couple teams able to win a championship without a top ten player. The Bulls are so deep, to give up three very good role players for one of the top 3 players in the game makes sense. I remember last year people were willing to give up Deng, Thomas and the Knick pick for Gasol. Why won't people give up similar assets for Kobe, who is a better player? I am a Bulls fan and I would love to give up bench players for Kobe but that is not going to happen. I believe to make a trade for Kobe we will have to give up either Ben or Kirk(I would want it to be Ben because it is going to take a whole lot of cash to resign him), one of our Bigs with potential(tyrus or Noah), another role player or two (Noch, Duhon, Kryapa, Smith, AG or Thabo) and maybe a draft pick or two. We can replace role players via free agency and Tyrus or Noah may become allstars but you have to give some thing to get something.

Kobe, instantly would make Deng and the rest of the very good role players better. Teams will have to double team Kobe to stop him. The Bulls players can make contested shot so I know they can make open shots. I hope we pull the trigger on the this one. Paxson has always talked about gaining assets so when a great player is available, he can make a move. It is time for Paxson to pull the trigger. Paxon needs to Man Up!


----------



## jnrjr79

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



MikeDC said:


> Deng... I'm not convinced. Why did MJ work so well with Scottie? Well, Scottie wasn't a great shooter, but he was a competent shooter from distance. And he was practically a PG playing from the 3 spot. Look at Deng, and as wonderful a player as he is, those are the two biggest areas of relative weakness in his offensive game.


I agree that Deng's handle vs. Scottie's isn't remotely as good. But as a shooter? Scottie was a passable 3-point shooter, but his bread and butter was the midrange shot, just like Deng. I actually see them as being very similar in terms of spot-up shooting. Although, I was always partial to Scottie's use of the glass.


----------



## ChiSox

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



jnrjr79 said:


> I agree that Deng's handle vs. Scottie's isn't remotely as good. But as a shooter? Scottie was a passable 3-point shooter, but his bread and butter was the midrange shot, just like Deng. I actually see them as being very similar in terms of spot-up shooting. Although, I was always partial to Scottie's use of the glass.


I believe Deng will be a better scorer than Scottie when he reaches his prime. Deng is a pure shooter. In three years I believe he will be one of the top three point shooters in the league. When Deng gets stronger, his range will move out to the three point line.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

Deng vs Pippen?

Not even close.

He'll never be the defender or have the handle to be the "point-forward" that Pip was.

Its ridiculous for Deng to be "off-limits" if talking about trading for Kobe freaking Bryant.


----------



## Rhyder

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



MikeDC said:


> Tyrus = 70+3t
> Ben = 90-2t
> 
> In your example what's the second derivative?
> 
> The functional form matters... suppose it's something like
> Tyrus = 70+3t<super>3</super>
> Ben = 90-2t<super>3</super>


I know that was in jest, but I was trying to make a comparison with the logic, not the actual math. Hence, the linear equation as an example.

Player A is declining and B is improving so, B > A.
Company C's g is declining and company D's g is increasing, therefore D warrants a higher multiple than C. 

Perhaps I should restrict my Finance vs. basketball analogies :biggrin:

EDIT: Forgot to answer your question. In my example the second derivative is 0.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



ChiSox said:


> *I remember last year people were willing to give up Deng, Thomas and the Knick pick for Gasol. Why won't people give up similar assets for Kobe, who is a better player? * I am a Bulls fan and I would love to give up bench players for Kobe but that is not going to happen. I believe to make a trade for Kobe we will have to give up either Ben or Kirk(I would want it to be Ben because it is going to take a whole lot of cash to resign him), one of our Bigs with potential(tyrus or Noah), another role player or two (Noch, Duhon, Kryapa, Smith, AG or Thabo) and maybe a draft pick or two. We can replace role players via free agency and Tyrus or Noah may become allstars but you have to give some thing to get something.
> 
> Kobe, instantly would make Deng and the rest of the very good role players better. Teams will have to double team Kobe to stop him. The Bulls players can make contested shot so I know they can make open shots. I hope we pull the trigger on the this one. Paxson has always talked about gaining assets so when a great player is available, he can make a move. It is time for Paxson to pull the trigger. Paxon needs to Man Up!


The reason people might have been willing to give up more for Gasol last year is that the Bulls obviously had a shortage of big men -- particularly big men who could score. The Bulls do not have a shortage of guards who can score. Kobe is a great player and I would like to have him come to the Bulls, but not at the cost of two or three young core players who are still on the upside of their careers. 

Calling Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, Thomas, Noah and Wallace role players repeatedly doesn't make it so. If Gordon averages 24 ppg this year, does that make him a role player? Hinrich is considered by most people to be one of the best point guards in the NBA, not exactly the classic definition of a role player. Wallace is still one of the best defensive big men in the NBA. And we have no idea how good Thomas or Noah will be a couple of years from now.

Anyway, I'm not a very big fan of the superstar hypothesis, which roughly stated is that you can't win a championship without a ball-hog who takes all the shots. The Bulls may not need a superstar to win it all -- just the patience and luck it takes to nurture the young talent they already have. The advantage of standing pat is that the Bulls roster is set for the next decade or so, with only minor adjustments. On the other hand, most Kobe trade scenarios leave the Bulls vulnerable to injury of even one of the remaining players. The worst of the proposals include one or both of our recently hard bought top draft pick bigs -- Thomas and Noah; leaving the team paying a luxury tax with a rapidly aging front line and no good draft picks in sight to replace them.


----------



## BULLHITTER

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



> Anyway, I'm not a very big fan of the superstar hypothesis, which roughly stated is that you can't win a championship without a ball-hog who takes all the shots. The Bulls may not need a superstar to win it all -- just the patience and luck it takes to nurture the young talent they already have. The advantage of standing pat is that the Bulls roster is set for the next decade or so, with only minor adjustments. On the other hand, most Kobe trade scenarios leave the Bulls vulnerable to injury of even one of the remaining players. The worst of the proposals include one or both of our recently hard bought top draft pick bigs -- Thomas and Noah; leaving the team paying a luxury tax with a rapidly aging front line and no good draft picks in sight to replace them.


+1; i'm not sure if it was mcbulls who posted it or not, but unless the bulls can pull off a deal that allows the young bigs to stay mostly intact, and even though i'm more of a wallace advocate than most, the bulls are better off for the long haul (as painful as i'm sure it'll be for the impatient "win now" disciples) competing for the ring as constructed, as opposed to a shakier but superstar driven formula just because there's no historical data to help assuage their fears that the team might not reach its potential.

IF a trade is to happen, i look for the bulls to give/offer a lot less than some want to believe.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

We'll be LUCKY if Noah and Thomas are as productive as Curry and Chandler are 4 years from now. When you take injuries, chances of busting, mental problems and how tough it is to develop superstar big men into account, it’s a rocky road to develop young player, especially big men.

Keep that in mind when hoarding them instead of making a Kobe trade. Is giving one of them up for the best player in the NBA that much of a sacrifice? 

Don’t fall in love with p.p.p.p.potential when the best actual production in the NBA may be up for grabs.


----------



## ChiSox

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> The reason people might have been willing to give up more for Gasol last year is that the Bulls obviously had a shortage of big men -- particularly big men who could score. The Bulls do not have a shortage of guards who can score. Kobe is a great player and I would like to have him come to the Bulls, but not at the cost of two or three young core players who are still on the upside of their careers.
> 
> Calling Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, Thomas, Noah and Wallace role players repeatedly doesn't make it so. If Gordon averages 24 ppg this year, does that make him a role player? Hinrich is considered by most people to be one of the best point guards in the NBA, not exactly the classic definition of a role player. Wallace is still one of the best defensive big men in the NBA. And we have no idea how good Thomas or Noah will be a couple of years from now.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not a very big fan of the superstar hypothesis, which roughly stated is that you can't win a championship without a ball-hog who takes all the shots. The Bulls may not need a superstar to win it all -- just the patience and luck it takes to nurture the young talent they already have. The advantage of standing pat is that the Bulls roster is set for the next decade or so, with only minor adjustments. On the other hand, most Kobe trade scenarios leave the Bulls vulnerable to injury of even one of the remaining players. The worst of the proposals include one or both of our recently hard bought top draft pick bigs -- Thomas and Noah; leaving the team paying a luxury tax with a rapidly aging front line and no good draft picks in sight to replace them.


In my opinion Deng, Gordon, Hinrich etc...are role players on a championship team. For a good team (Da Bulls) they aren't role players. I don't believe any of them are currently in the top three in their position in NBA. Maybe I should have been more clear when I said role player. In the last thirty years how many teams have won a championship with a player of Deng caliber being there best player? I can only name one(Detroit in 04). Every other team had at least one player which because of their ability to take over a game, lead their team to a championship. Heck I said top ten, most of the team which won championships had at least one of the top 3-5 players in the NBA. 

We will be very good if we don't make a trade for a superstar, but will we be good enough to be NBA champions? History says no.

Gasol is a very good player but I don't believe he is in the same league as Kobe. I know there is a shortage of good bigs in the league, but there is also a shortage of people who can score 30+ points and create open looks for his teamates. 

Even if you aren't a fan of the superstar hypothesis, it is hard to argue history. History says you need a superstar to win a championship. 

On the Bulls, Kobe wouldn't need to shoot the ball 30 times a night for the us to win.

I agree we don't know how good Tyrus or Noah will be in the future. I believe they are going to be studs. I hope they do become as good as Kobe but I doubt it. We do know how good Kobe is. Kobe is arguably the best player in the world. This isn't just my opinion, I've heard several players in the NBA say this.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Report : Lakers High On Nocioni*



Rhyder said:


> I know that was in jest, but I was trying to make a comparison with the logic, not the actual math. Hence, the linear equation as an example.
> 
> Player A is declining and B is improving so, B > A.
> Company C's g is declining and company D's g is increasing, therefore D warrants a higher multiple than C.
> 
> Perhaps I should restrict my Finance vs. basketball analogies :biggrin:
> 
> EDIT: Forgot to answer your question. In my example the second derivative is 0.


Which, for the record, I don't disagree with at all 

It just made me think of the acceleration I think are likely in their career paths, and I think it'll probably be fairly quick in both their cases.


----------



## BULLHITTER

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



> We'll be LUCKY if Noah and Thomas are as productive as Curry and Chandler are 4 years from now. When you take injuries, chances of busting, mental problems and how tough it is to develop superstar big men into account, it’s a rocky road to develop young player, especially big men.


i'm rather confident that bulls fans will know definitively in far less than 4 years whether or not noah and thomas are productive.


----------



## Nu_Omega

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

As much as i dislike Kobe and how i hope he will not come to Chicago, stats-wise he is the closest to what MJ can bring onto the court and if anyone can bring the bulls over the top, he is the one. 

It's not everyday that we get to see one of the best, if not the best basketball player being possibily traded to a new team. The bulls are really imo in the best position to get the deal done and Deng is no way untouchable in my books. In fact, giving up Gordon and Deng for Kobe is even reasonable as you're getting a future hall-of-famer and superstar that delivers the stats on a nightly basis. The bulls' roster is way deep. The true value of players like Kobe will shine in the post season where the superstar treatment sets in. C'mon lets be frank, have we not seen enough of MJ getting all those nitty-gritty calls in the playoffs? Dare we say Duncan, Lebron or Wade don't get them?

I'll pull the tigger even if it takes 2 of our core and fillers to get Kobe. The only important thing is that our front court players must not be included in the trade. Let's put it in another perspective, if Lebron or the MJ of the second 3 peat era is available, would you trade 2 of your core for either of them? Maybe emotion sometime gets the better of us. 

I doubt Pax will ever push for the deal. The core is his brainchild after all but then again the bulls without Kobe is no slouch just that we MAY be missing that x-factor to bring us all the way to the top.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

Just to refresh my memory, what is the "the core" now?

I remember the "core 4" used to be Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Nocioni. ScottMay's Mt Rushmore avatar clearly explains this. Fine.

Has the untouchable "core" now extended to TT, Noah and Wallace?

If so, then grrrrr. Go get Kobe Paxson. Jeez.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



jnrjr79 said:


> I agree that Deng's handle vs. Scottie's isn't remotely as good. But as a shooter? Scottie was a passable 3-point shooter, but his bread and butter was the midrange shot, just like Deng. I actually see them as being very similar in terms of spot-up shooting. Although, I was always partial to Scottie's use of the glass.


They're actually really similar. This is for each of their first three seasons
<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 288pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="384"><col style="width: 48pt;" span="6" width="64"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="3" class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 144pt;" align="center" height="17" width="192">*Pippen*</td> <td colspan="3" class="xl23" style="width: 144pt;" align="center" width="192">*Deng*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" align="center" height="17">*eFG*</td> <td class="xl24" align="center">*TS*</td> <td class="xl24" align="center">*3PA/G*</td> <td class="xl24" align="center">*eFG*</td> <td class="xl24" align="center">*TS*</td> <td class="xl24" align="center">*3PA/G*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="0.46600000000000003" align="center" height="17">47%</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.48899999999999999" align="center">49%</td> <td x:num="" align="center">0.3</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.45800000000000002" align="center">46%</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.496" align="center">50%</td> <td x:num="" align="center">1.9</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="0.48799999999999999" align="center" height="17">49%</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.52400000000000002" align="center">52%</td> <td x:num="" align="center">1.1</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.47399999999999998" align="center">47%</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.51700000000000002" align="center">52%</td> <td x:num="" align="center">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="0.501" align="center" height="17">50%</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.52800000000000002" align="center">53%</td> <td x:num="" align="center">1.4</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.51800000000000002" align="center">52%</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.56" align="center">56%</td> <td x:num="" align="center">0.1</td> </tr> </tbody></table>


----------



## BULLHITTER

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

i think pax is playing this rather smartly; the longer he waits, the less he will have to give up.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



BULLHITTER said:


> i think pax is playing this rather smartly; the longer he waits, the less he will have to give up.


Let's hope so. I heard the same thing over and over again regarding Gasol and KG. KG is now in our conference and stands in our way.


----------



## jnrjr79

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



MikeDC said:


> They're actually really similar. This is for each of their first three seasons
> <table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 288pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="384"><col style="width: 48pt;" span="6" width="64"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="3" class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 144pt;" align="center" height="17" width="192">*Pippen*</td> <td colspan="3" class="xl23" style="width: 144pt;" align="center" width="192">*Deng*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" align="center" height="17">*eFG*</td> <td class="xl24" align="center">*TS*</td> <td class="xl24" align="center">*3PA/G*</td> <td class="xl24" align="center">*eFG*</td> <td class="xl24" align="center">*TS*</td> <td class="xl24" align="center">*3PA/G*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="0.46600000000000003" align="center" height="17">47%</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.48899999999999999" align="center">49%</td> <td x:num="" align="center">0.3</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.45800000000000002" align="center">46%</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.496" align="center">50%</td> <td x:num="" align="center">1.9</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="0.48799999999999999" align="center" height="17">49%</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.52400000000000002" align="center">52%</td> <td x:num="" align="center">1.1</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.47399999999999998" align="center">47%</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.51700000000000002" align="center">52%</td> <td x:num="" align="center">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="0.501" align="center" height="17">50%</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.52800000000000002" align="center">53%</td> <td x:num="" align="center">1.4</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.51800000000000002" align="center">52%</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.56" align="center">56%</td> <td x:num="" align="center">0.1</td> </tr> </tbody></table>


Which I think supports the idea that your argument about their ability to handle the ball is well-taken, but the argument regarding the shooting doesn't pan out. I think they are similar players when it comes to jump shooting.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

I think there is a deal on the table. It's either:
1) Wallace+Deng(+filler?) for Kobe+filler
or
2) Wallace+Gordon(+filler?) for Kobe+filler

My hunch is that the Lakers are holding out for #1 and Pax is holding out for #2.

With Wallace being one of the players outgoing, there's no room for the Bulls to give up any of their other forwards - especially if it's deal #1. It could well be that the Bulls are looking at Gray as the starting C (or Noah, even), should the deal go down.

Just my take on it...


----------



## BULLHITTER

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



> Let's hope so. I heard the same thing over and over again regarding Gasol and KG. KG is now in our conference and stands in our way.


so you must be of a mind that KG's besting of detroit, nj, orlando, cleveland, washington and toronto is a given, no?


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

The more I think about it, the more I feel pretty comfortable giving up Deng. Noc, playing next to Kobe, would be a very good fit. You also have the opportunity for Thabo to step into that slot as well. And you play Kobe there a good % of the time so you get him on the court with both Ben and Kirk.

Am I completely wrong, or is that a hellaciously dangerous lineup to put around Kobe at the 1-4 slots.

The trick, of course, is to figure out if it'd work without Wallace in the middle. He'd be close to ideal as the man in the middle for that team. I'd feel ok with Smith, but the truth is he's pretty skinny and not tremendously physical. I'm also not sure Tyrus is the guy who fits playing on that team. Noah and Gray, both pretty good looking fits for different reasons.

I think I'd like to have another competent big man. If there were any truth to that Tyrus for Okafor talk, that'd be awesome.


----------



## SALO

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



DaBullz said:


> I think there is a deal on the table. It's either:
> 1) Wallace+Deng(+filler?) for Kobe+filler
> or
> 2) Wallace+Gordon(+filler?) for Kobe+filler
> 
> My hunch is that the Lakers are holding out for #1 and Pax is holding out for #2.
> 
> With Wallace being one of the players outgoing, there's no room for the Bulls to give up any of their other forwards - especially if it's deal #1. It could well be that the Bulls are looking at Gray as the starting C (or Noah, even), should the deal go down.
> 
> Just my take on it...


I'd pass on deal #1. More importantly, I think Kobe shoots down that proposal. He wants to play with Wallace & Deng, _maybe_ he would be ok with us giving up one of them, but definitely not both. 

Trade #2 is the one I'm pushing for. 

Anyone know what the restrictions are on the Lakers dealing either Mihm or Cook? Do they have to wait until Dec. 15th? Because if we trade Wallace we'll be hurting for someone to body up the huge Shaq/Curry/Yao type centers. Gray is a foul machine. Noah/Smith are too skinny. Say what you want about Big Ben being short, but he's still one of the stronger bigs in the league and played great against Shaq in our sweep of Miami. Mihm at least gives us another player with legit center size, and Cook could draw some bigs away from the basket with his shooting range that extends all the way past the 3-pt line. 

We'd probably need to add a 6th big for insurance, maybe convince a PJ Brown or Elden Campbell to come out of retirement. Another option could be Corliss Williamson, who's only 6'7" but is very strong, can score down on the block, and is just another great character guy with championship experience. 

My sleeper big is Justin Williams. Word here in Sactown is that he's going to be waived due to a recent rape allegation. He maintains his innocence but I don't think the Kings want to deal with another distraction when they already have their hands full with Ron Artest.


----------



## Rhyder

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



MikeDC said:


> The more I think about it, the more I feel pretty comfortable giving up Deng. Noc, playing next to Kobe, would be a very good fit. You also have the opportunity for Thabo to step into that slot as well. And you play Kobe there a good % of the time so you get him on the court with both Ben and Kirk.
> 
> Am I completely wrong, or is that a hellaciously dangerous lineup to put around Kobe at the 1-4 slots.
> 
> The trick, of course, is to figure out if it'd work without Wallace in the middle. He'd be close to ideal as the man in the middle for that team. I'd feel ok with Smith, but the truth is he's pretty skinny and not tremendously physical. I'm also not sure Tyrus is the guy who fits playing on that team. Noah and Gray, both pretty good looking fits for different reasons.
> 
> I think I'd like to have another competent big man. If there were any truth to that Tyrus for Okafor talk, that'd be awesome.


What do we do with Gordon? Do we pay him $55-60 million to come off the bench or does he start in front of Kirk? Do we let him walk or S&T him for a vet big on an expiring contract and a lesser talent?

That's why I'm in favor of shipping Gordon over Deng--roster balance. I'm more confident that Noc can be a backup 3 and play some 4 than Thabo being the backup 3 and Gordon being happy to come off the bench for the foreseeable future.


----------



## jnrjr79

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



DaBullz said:


> I think there is a deal on the table. It's either:
> 1) Wallace+Deng(+filler?) for Kobe+filler
> or
> 2) Wallace+Gordon(+filler?) for Kobe+filler
> 
> My hunch is that the Lakers are holding out for #1 and Pax is holding out for #2.
> 
> With Wallace being one of the players outgoing, there's no room for the Bulls to give up any of their other forwards - especially if it's deal #1. It could well be that the Bulls are looking at Gray as the starting C (or Noah, even), should the deal go down.
> 
> Just my take on it...


From a conspiracy theorist angle, I like the idea that the Gray at C during the preseason experiment was to get a look at him for purposes of a Bryant trade.


If this happens, I'll have some pretty mixed emotions. I'm ambivalent about getting Kobe. If it's the right trade, it could make the Bulls big-time contenders. However, I have a pretty strong dislike for Kobe's personality, and it'll be less fun to root for him than it would be other players.

I suppose this all comes down to your view as a fan of the team. Do you care about the personalities of the players, or are they all just chattels to be bartered and sold? To me, who is wearing the jersey matters. Slap a Bulls jersey on a douche, and he's still a douche.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



kukoc4ever said:


> We'll be LUCKY if Noah and Thomas are as productive as Curry and Chandler are 4 years from now. When you take injuries, chances of busting, mental problems and how tough it is to develop superstar big men into account, it’s a rocky road to develop young player, especially big men.
> 
> Keep that in mind when hoarding them instead of making a Kobe trade. Is giving one of them up for the best player in the NBA that much of a sacrifice?
> 
> Don’t fall in love with p.p.p.p.potential when the best actual production in the NBA may be up for grabs.


So I take it that you are in favor of trading Noah and Thomas, leaving the Bulls with two 33 year olds and Gray on the front line. 

IMO, at this point in time Thomas, Noah and Gray look like they will be more than adequate compensation for Chandler and Curry. More mobility, more defense, more athleticism, better basketball IQ, better passing, better ball-handling, and ... here's the surprise ... starting this year, more scoring. Curry is going to be sucked into Zach's black hole.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



Rhyder said:


> What do we do with Gordon? Do we pay him $55-60 million to come off the bench or does he start in front of Kirk? Do we let him walk or S&T him for a vet big on an expiring contract and a lesser talent?
> 
> That's why I'm in favor of shipping Gordon over Deng--roster balance. I'm more confident that Noc can be a backup 3 and play some 4 than Thabo being the backup 3 and Gordon being happy to come off the bench for the foreseeable future.


Why not start Kobe at the 3 and play lot of this kind of lineup?

Kirk 36, _Ben 12_
Ben 34, Kobe 14
Kobe 24, Noc 16, Thabo 8
_Noc 16_, Thomas 24, _Smith 16_
_Smith 16_, Noah 24, Gray 8

As I wrote earlier, my thinking is pretty dependent on Ben being willing to play like a guy who's willing to move and play without the ball in his hands, and I'm not sure that he's willing to do that.

But minutes and starting wouldn't be an issue at all as far as I could tell. Kirk, Ben, Kobe and Noc would be 4 of the 5 guys I'd want starting and finishing games. A year down the road, Noah would be number 5 and Thomas if he puts Noah or Smith on the bench.

But when I look at that lineup, I see a ridiculously scary offensive team. 5 guys who can shoot and pass the ball, and two overpowering scorers. Looks like a winner to me.


----------



## GB

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



kukoc4ever said:


> Let's hope so. I heard the same thing over and over again regarding Gasol and KG. KG is now in our conference and stands in our way.


Except multiple insiders say he was never headed anywhere but Boston....


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



GB said:


> Except multiple insiders say he was never headed anywhere but Boston....


Perhaps... seems fishy though.

We do know that for Gasol, multiple insiders said Paxson was unwilling to part with ANY of the "core 4" to land him. 

We'll see how the Kobe situation plays out.

Long story short, KG is in Boston and is standing in our way. Let's hope we don't say the same about Kobe in a few months. Ulp.


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



kukoc4ever said:


> Perhaps... seems fishy though.
> 
> We do know that for Gasol, multiple insiders said Paxson was unwilling to part with ANY of the "core 4" to land him.
> 
> We'll see how the Kobe situation plays out.
> 
> Long story short, KG is in Boston and is standing in our way. Let's hope we don't say the same about Kobe in a few months. Ulp.


don't personally like it, but out in California, there are rumors of Prince, Hamilton and possibly filler for Kobe + possible fillers

east could get competitive


----------



## Rhyder

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



MikeDC said:


> Why not start Kobe at the 3 and play lot of this kind of lineup?
> 
> Kirk 36, _Ben 12_
> Ben 34, Kobe 14
> Kobe 24, Noc 16, Thabo 8
> _Noc 16_, Thomas 24, _Smith 16_
> _Smith 16_, Noah 24, Gray 8
> 
> As I wrote earlier, my thinking is pretty dependent on Ben being willing to play like a guy who's willing to move and play without the ball in his hands, and I'm not sure that he's willing to do that.
> 
> But minutes and starting wouldn't be an issue at all as far as I could tell. Kirk, Ben, Kobe and Noc would be 4 of the 5 guys I'd want starting and finishing games. A year down the road, Noah would be number 5 and Thomas if he puts Noah or Smith on the bench.
> 
> But when I look at that lineup, I see a ridiculously scary offensive team. 5 guys who can shoot and pass the ball, and two overpowering scorers. Looks like a winner to me.


For a team whose size has seemingly been an issue each of the past two years, that lineup looks undersized at every position but PG. If Thomas and Noah (or Gray) develop into a frontcourt tandem, then that changes the equation. However, that doesn't look very "win now."

Personally, Gordon + one of our young bigs + filler & Duhon if willing to trade Farmar back is as high as I go for Kobe.

Wallace & Gordon for Kobe is also interesting, although I don't think it helps us as win now as trading one of our youngins. However, if the Lakers want Wallace back then it makes potential deals a lot easier to make flexibility wise.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> So I take it that you are in favor of trading Noah and Thomas, leaving the Bulls with two 33 year olds and Gray on the front line.


No, but if giving up ONE of them is what it takes, then its a deal you have to make.

We're talking about the best player in the NBA here, and the Bulls have the depth to make up for it.

And, my point is that we don't have any idea how good any of these guys are going to be. We rip the hell out of Curry and Chandler for ending up to be above average NBA big men. We'll be lucky if Noah and TT end up producing like Chandler and Curry do.




> IMO, at this point in time Thomas, Noah and Gray look like they will be more than adequate compensation for Chandler and Curry. More mobility, more defense, more athleticism, better basketball IQ, better passing, better ball-handling, and


How on earth can you make a comment like this after watching 2 of these 3 guys play nothing but preseason games?

Maybe, long term, but TT and Noah are so raw, its going to be a while until they can match what Curry and Chandler are doing.

---

At the end of the day, if Gordon, Noc and TT is what it takes for Kobe, then its a trade you have to make, IMO. We're 10 deep, and that does not really help us that much. This lineup is capable of making a LEGIT run at the NBA Title the next 2 years. We have no idea what TT or Noah are going to end up being. Best case, Shawn Kemp and Tyson Chandler... BEST CASE... and Kobe is much better than those guys.... and he's actually at that level now.

Hinrich / Duhon
KOBE FREAKING BRYANT / Thabo
Deng / THE HAWK
Smith / Noah
Wallace / Gray


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

Two points:
You have to do the math. Add up the outbound and inbound salaries and take into account BYC and Noc can't be traded until Dec. 15. I don't see how Wallace isn't in the mix if a trade is to be done, simply because we'd have to really gut the team to match the salaries.

Second, Kobe is a SG who can play a little SF. He's too thin to be a regular SF or play big minutes there over the course of a season. He's going to replace Gordon at SG, give us D and replace the scoring.

I guess a third point might be that Kobe might want to play with 4 Wallace types. He'd certainly get to shoot well over 30 times per game that way  However, if we are going to consider Kobe, he's got to fit in with Deng, Noc, Thomas, Hinrich, Noah, and Gray.

As for Gray, he really doesn't have to do much more than be able to stay in the game for as many minutes as he can. Foul trouble for the guy would really put is in a bad way. I remember Luc Longley coming to the Bulls and all he really had to do to make PJax happy was basically take up space in/near the lane with his hands up. Anything else he did was icing on that cake.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



KennethTo said:


> don't personally like it, but out in California, there are rumors of Prince, Hamilton and possibly filler for Kobe + possible fillers


Gulp.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

I guess it's true. On every forum, you're going to have a group of delusional posters who think they can rip off every team in the league with their trades.


----------



## DengNabbit

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



KennethTo said:


> don't personally like it, but out in California, there are rumors of Prince, Hamilton and possibly filler for Kobe + possible fillers



Kobe can veto that trade, and I don't think he'd like playing on the Pistons team that would be left without those guys.

Now, post-bulls-trade, our roster might be about that good too... but I believe he'd rather play in a major US city if all things are equal. and our team would definitely be better than the Pistons+Kobe one in 2, 3 years.

Kobe will want a chance to win for several years, not one.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> A lot of Bulls fans says a lot of negative things about Kobe with pure conviction. LOL.
> 
> 
> I guarantee all of you that once Kobe becomes a Bull, each and every poster in this board who has insulted him, will sing nothing but high praises on # 24 when all is said and done.


Don't think you know me buddy. I've despised Kobe for a decade. I've absolutely hated his guts since he raped that girl. That won't change just because the Bulls are stupid enough to trade for him (if it were to happen).


----------



## Sith

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

We are forgetting that J O'neal is very avaiable as well, he can opt out of his contract after 2008, one year earlier than kobe. say if we can get Joneal for someone like Tyrus(obviously plus salary fillers). do we go for Joneal instead? it makes our lineup incredibly complete with deep bench still.

Kirk
Gordon
Deng
Oneal
Wallace

Noah/sasho/noc and others. we have absolutely no weakness at any position, and will be the best defensive team. Oneal is a 20/10 guy still, who can also play center with his 6'11 260lbs. Which means sometimes Wallace can drop down to the PF spot and guard people more of his height. 

There are many options avaiable for Paxson between now and the Feb trading deadline. I personally think that if all it takes is gordon+tyrus+noc for kobe, we've got to make that trade! no ifs, buts, get it done. no excuses. no brainer.


----------



## Brothaman33

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

Ok I'd like to chime in here.....

The lakers are interested in Nocioni right?

If that the case, then you WAIT, until he can be traded, THEN make a deal....You can't take Noc out and Wallace in just to make it happen now, there have been rumors for weeks and nothing has happened, and I don't think any thing will happen for a few more weeks.....all this is, is arguing over possible deals, some of which arnt even in the realm of possibility.....

HOWEVER

If I were to make a deal, I wait until Nocioni can be trade and start out by giving Gordon, Nocioni, and ONE of our 2 young bigs.....then you start filling in the deal

Hinrich
Kobe
Deng
Noah or Tyrus or Smith or Gray or Benny the bull....no, jk
Wallace

Don't get too excited...


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



Brothaman33 said:


> Ok I'd like to chime in here.....
> 
> The lakers are interested in Nocioni right?
> 
> If that the case, then you WAIT, until he can be traded, THEN make a deal....You can't take Noc out and Wallace in just to make it happen now, there have been rumors for weeks and nothing has happened, and I don't think any thing will happen for a few more weeks.....all this is, is arguing over possible deals, some of which arnt even in the realm of possibility.....
> 
> HOWEVER
> 
> If I were to make a deal, I wait until Nocioni can be trade and start out by giving Gordon, Nocioni, and ONE of our 2 young bigs.....then you start filling in the deal
> 
> Hinrich
> Kobe
> Deng
> Noah or Tyrus or Smith or Gray or Benny the bull....no, jk
> Wallace
> 
> Don't get too excited...


The premise of the thread is that Kobe will be traded this week. If that's so, and the Bulls are the trading partner, then either Wallace is involved or less likely, PJ Brown will get a nice Christmas gift.

If it's Wallace, then I expect LA wants Wallace, Gordon and Nocioni. We should offer them less or at least a swing-man in return plus Kobe. BYC issues aside, salaries probably can be worked out.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



McBulls said:


> The premise of the thread is that Kobe will be traded this week. If that's so, and the Bulls are the trading partner, then either Wallace is involved or less likely, PJ Brown will get a nice Christmas gift.
> 
> If it's Wallace, then I expect LA wants Wallace, Gordon and Nocioni. We should offer them less or at least a swing-man in return plus Kobe. BYC issues aside, salaries probably can be worked out.


no reason why the lakers would take wallace if their theme is rebuilding.

most likely deal would be nocioni,gordon,tyyus or joakim, a 1st rd pick + filler.


----------



## O2K

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

yea i was just posting the link to an article. The original idea of me positing the thread wasn't to get everybody riled up, I'm not quite sure what I was trying to accomplish but I thought I made it clear that I didn't believe it....

Vescey imo hasn't been right about anything.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



O2K said:


> Vescey imo hasn't been right about anything.



vecsey was pretty good with the new york and indiana deals before. but yeah, he sucks with almost anything when it comes to rumors.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



KennethTo said:


> don't personally like it, but out in California, there are rumors of Prince, Hamilton and possibly filler for Kobe + possible fillers
> 
> east could get competitive


That's not a sexy trade for the Lakers, but I think Prince and Rip are one of the best 2/3 combos in the league. In fact, I can't think of any I'd take over them.

Who would play the 3 for the Pistons? They still don't look very deep


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



MikeDC said:


> That's not a sexy trade for the Lakers, but I think Prince and Rip are one of the best 2/3 combos in the league. In fact, I can't think of any I'd take over them.
> 
> Who would play the 3 for the Pistons? They still don't look very deep


lol i dont see any reason why pistons would do this. seeing as how prince always gives kobe the most problem. if the trade does happen with the pistons, then expect prince off the list.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



DaBullz said:


> Second, Kobe is a SG who can play a little SF. He's too thin to be a regular SF or play big minutes there over the course of a season. He's going to replace Gordon at SG, give us D and replace the scoring.


Kobe's listed at 220lbs by the Lakers and by ESPN. Deng's listed at 220, but he's taller, so if anything Kobe's going to be more stout and muscular.




Rhyder said:


> For a team whose size has seemingly been an issue each of the past two years, that lineup looks undersized at every position but PG. If Thomas and Noah (or Gray) develop into a frontcourt tandem, then that changes the equation. However, that doesn't look very "win now."


I agree it's not as "win now", but I like our young bigs and, let's face it, I don't think Wallace has a lot left in the tank. If we're gonna be paying a guy an assload of money for the next several years, Wallace + Deng or Gordon ensures we will sign our younger guys. It's almost a pre-emptive salary dump... the kind of thing the Bulls have done a few times. It's kind of a two steps forward one step back approach though, that's for sure.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*

kobe lost a significant weight.


he's not at 220 anymore.

more like 200-205.


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



MikeDC said:


> That's not a sexy trade for the Lakers, but I think Prince and Rip are one of the best 2/3 combos in the league. In fact, I can't think of any I'd take over them.
> 
> Who would play the 3 for the Pistons? They still don't look very deep


C-McDyess, Mohammed
PF-Rasheed Wallace, Samb
SF-Jarvis Hayes, Amir Johnson
SG-Kobe Bryant, Afflalo
PG-Chauncey Billups, Stuckley, Hunter

That might be the best defensive team in the league right there or at least one of the top five. Kobe, Billups and Wallace can all score. Strong veterans, that is a title contender right there. I don't see Kobe vetoing a trade to Detroit.

Lakers
C-Bynum, Kwame, Mihm
PF-Odom, Turiaf
SF-Prince, Walton,
SG-Hamilton, Evans
PG-Fish/Critt/Farmer


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



> C-McDyess, Mohammed
> PF-Rasheed Wallace, Samb
> SF-Jarvis Hayes, Amir Johnson
> SG-Kobe Bryant, Afflalo
> PG-Chauncey Billups, Stuckley, Hunter
> 
> That might be the best defensive team in the league right there or at least one of the top five. Kobe, Billups and Wallace can all score. Strong veterans, that is a title contender right there. I don't see Kobe vetoing a trade to Detroit.
> 
> Lakers
> C-Bynum, Kwame, Mihm
> PF-Odom, Turiaf
> SF-Prince, Walton,
> SG-Hamilton, Evans
> PG-Fish/Critt/Farmer



buss would need a young exciting player or at least an as performer for kobe. with tayshaun and rip, he's getting neither.

both players are good supporting role players at best. also amir johnson has to be included in the deal to los angeles to make it work.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



aznzen said:


> buss would need a young exciting player or at least an as performer for kobe. with tayshaun and rip, he's getting neither.
> 
> both players are good supporting role players at best. also amir johnson has to be included in the deal to los angeles to make it work.


If I was a Piston's fan, I'd have very mixed feelings about this trade. They're going to miss Prince, and they're going to miss many years of chemistry together. Doesn't sound like something that Dumars would do.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Kobe to be traded this week*



KennethTo said:


> C-McDyess, Mohammed
> PF-Rasheed Wallace, Samb
> SF-Jarvis Hayes, Amir Johnson
> SG-Kobe Bryant, Afflalo
> PG-Chauncey Billups, Stuckley, Hunter
> 
> That might be the best defensive team in the league right there or at least one of the top five.


Um, have I ever mentioned I lived in Washington DC for the last 8 years? I've seen more than I wanted to of Jarvis Hayes and I feel pretty comfortable he's neither a good defender nor a starter on a good team..

McDyess is a bit of a reach as a starter too, with all the miles and injuries he's had. 

Their backups are extremely inexperienced. Samb is a rookie 2nd round pick. Johnson's played 8 career games. Afflalo and Stuckey (who just broke his hand) are rookies. 

Given their aging frontline, I think having those guys as the primary backups is not all that great.


----------



## theanimal23

*Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3082513


> The Kobe Bryant-to-Chicago trade talks are very real, and they've been real for a while.
> 
> The Los Angeles Lakers and Chicago Bulls have been having daily discussions about Bryant trade possibilities for at least the past week, with Bryant's no-trade clause throwing a unique wrench into the situation, according to sources.
> 
> *The Lakers are asking for a package built around Luol Deng, Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah*, which is more than Chicago is willing to surrender. Also, Bryant would not want to play in Chicago if the Bulls surrendered all four of those players, believing there would not be enough talent left to compete for a championship, and he would veto that trade even if the Bulls and Lakers were both in favor of it.





> *One source said the Bulls' supposed opposition to including Deng in any deal had been overstated in recent media reports.*


----------



## ballafromthenorth

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

Wow... Way too much...


----------



## someone

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

Kobe for Joe Smith and Victor Kryphahha get it done pax!


----------



## someone

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*



theanimal23 said:


> The Lakers are asking for a package built around Luol Deng, Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah,


Kirk / Duhon
Kobe / Seph
Noce / Griff 
Smith / Victor
Wallace / Gray

:thumbdown: 

Pax is not one to bend over like that


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

We should offer this for post-Dec 15th, Gordon, Noce, Smith, and Du to counter that rediculous 'offer' by LA


----------



## bigdbucks

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

Why would LA want TT and Noah? They have a full front court with Odom, Walton, Bynum, Mihm, Brown already. This seems ridiculous. I wouldn't include BOTH Deng and Gordon but one will have to go for sure. The next few weeks will be very interesting!


----------



## ballafromthenorth

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*



theanimal23 said:


> We should offer this for post-Dec 15th, Gordon, Noce, Smith, and Du to counter that rediculous 'offer' by LA


Pretty much exactly what I was thinking.. Hopefully the Lakers will get off to a terrible start and Kobe will force the Lakers hand a little more..


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*



ballafromthenorth said:


> Pretty much exactly what I was thinking.. Hopefully the Lakers will get off to a terrible start and Kobe will force the Lakers hand a little more..


With all these rediculous demands by LA and the media making it seem like we need to give them arguably 4 of our best 6 players in most trade scenarios, I think we should just offer them Gordon, Du, Noce, and Smith out of spite. Nothing more, and nothing less. Kobe's agent should push hard on that and Kobe should just 'sit out' due to injury until a trade happens.


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

It makes sense why we may not have extended Gordon, and might just before the clock strikes 12.


----------



## someone

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

i don't even see the point in getting Kobe


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

The Bulls really don't seem to be getting much respect from pundits around the league. It wouldn't surprise me if some GMs felt the same way.

The solution to this is to play the season with the players we have (except, perhaps, trading Khryapa for a 2nd round pick at the deadline).

Gordon and Deng's market value will almost certainly be up at the end of the year. I don't know how well TT and Noah will do, but they should graduate from "throw-in" status by the end of the year. Even Nocioni's value will increase if he manages to avoid re-injuring his foot. On the other hand, Kobe's trade value will almost certainly be reduced. If we still want him at that time we can offer Gordon in a sign and trade and throw in Smith and a 2nd round pick to boot.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*



McBulls said:


> If we still want him at that time we can offer Gordon in a sign and trade and throw in Smith and a 2nd round pick to boot.


C'mon man, u KNOW that's not gonna happen


----------



## chifaninca

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

Screw that trade request.

We don't need Kobe, we'd like to have Kobe...But not at that redicuolous or even similar request.


You want him gone, wait until Dec. 15th. Then we will talk. Until then, anything without Wallace included is rediculous due to money considerations.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

It's Buss's 1st request, so obviously it would be as high as possible. The package will become more reasonable with time.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

Question :

Does anyone think Gray's recent play & potential make Noah expendable if this deal goes down? Obviously he hasn't done anything in the reg season yet but it's not hard to believe that he won't either.

TT & Gray would be a much better scoring frontcourt in the future although TT & Noah would cause much more havoc defensively. Bottom line, TT MUST be kept.

G Hinrich / Curry (poor man's Gordon)
G Bryant / Sefolosha
F Deng / Khyrapa (poor man's Nocioni)
F Smith / Thomas
C Wallace / Gray

= Boston vs. Chicago ECF


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*



The ROY said:


> Question :
> 
> Does anyone think Gray's recent play & potential make Noah expendable if this deal goes down? Obviously he hasn't done anything in the reg season yet but it's not hard to believe that he won't either.
> 
> TT & Gray would be a much better scoring frontcourt in the future although TT & Noah would cause much more havoc defensively. Bottom line, TT MUST be kept.


No. Noah looks to me like a power forward. He's just getting pushed around under the glass. Maybe at some point in his career he will be able to consistently play spot minutes. I think the reason we all have our panties in a bunch for Gray is that he is a legitimate ole' school center on a team without any other legitimate ole' school centers. (Wallace included.)


----------



## Aesop

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

I'm sure this is discussed ad nauseum in other threads, but could somebody list the possible deals that not only fit under the salary cap rules but also make any sort of sense for both teams?

Edit: I ask this because I'm haven't seen one without a P.J. sign-and-trade.


----------



## croco

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

Those four players are a lot more valuable than Kobe, this would be like giving up the entire future and move flexibility for nothing. The Bulls wouldn't even be better in the short term, it would be a slightly glorified version of the Lakers, but not a better ball club by any means.


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*



Aesop said:


> I'm sure this is discussed ad nauseum in other threads, but could somebody list the possible deals that not only fit under the salary cap rules but also make any sort of sense for both teams?
> 
> Edit: I ask this because I'm haven't seen one without a P.J. sign-and-trade.


After December 15th:

Gordon, Noce, Duhon, and Tyrus for Kobe

Gordon, Noce, Duhon, Noah, Viktor, and Griff for Kobe (I think this trade would work with Sefo in place of Griff too).

Gordon, Noce, Duhon, and Smith


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

ROY, I have not seen too much of Gray this preseason, but I find it extremely hard to buy into his hype from many Bulls fans on both boards. I saw Gray in college, and I was not too impressed. I think he will be a solid backup/rotation player one day, but nothing to make any player up front expendable or Gray and 'starting' mentioned in the same breath. I know you did not say he would start, but there was a recent article about that. 

If the choice came down to Noah or Tyrus, I vote for Keeping Tyrus. But I would not throw in Noah in a deal b/c of Gray.


----------



## Aesop

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*



theanimal23 said:


> After December 15th:
> 
> Gordon, Noce, Duhon, and Tyrus for Kobe
> 
> Gordon, Noce, Duhon, Noah, Viktor, and Griff for Kobe (I think this trade would work with Sefo in place of Griff too).
> 
> Gordon, Noce, Duhon, and Smith


Thank you. What about before December 15?


----------



## PD

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

The Lakers need a reality check. Deng, Gordon, Thomas, and Noah for Kobe? It took us years to gather those talent. They want to skip such process.


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*



Aesop said:


> Thank you. What about before December 15?


Without PJ Brown, it is unlikely we would strike a deal for Kobe prior to December 15th. The obvious one is Ben and Ben for Kobe. We could add Noah or Tyrus in that deal too. I'm not advocating that.

Otherwise, we would need to give them a few of our best young players, which no Bulls fan would do. So, if any Kobe trade occurs, it will be after December 15th. This is because of Noce and Smith signing deals and cannot be traded till then. Also, Hinrich is BYC. If Gordon signs an extension, he will be PPP which will cause further issues.

I see a limited chance of a deal happening without Ben and Ben for Kobe or getting PJ and maybe Sweetney or other expirings (Du, Vik) for Kobe prior to Dec. 15th.

I believe, 'The OC Register', it is called (?), had an article out about the Lakers liking Noce. Now if that guy heard from a legit, high exec source, then I think a deal will happen after the 15th along the lines of Gordon, Noce, Du, and Tyrus. That is my gut feeling as I think Pax would do that. Would I? I'm not sure. It depends on how good we do until then as a team, and how much star or bust potential Tyrus is showing.


----------



## theanimal23

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

What would throw a wrench in everything is if Pax would trade Luol, PJ (if he un-retires for a 10mil/year salary), and say a 1st rounder or Sefo for Kobe.

Kobe is the better plyer today and and that move could give us a legit shot in the Finals. But, in the long run its a bad move. I think Luol would be an incredible sidekick due to his style. But, I think I would have to make the move if it was essentially Luol straight up for Kobe. Say Lu, PJ, and a 1st, I'd have to do it.

Also, we must consider who Kobe wants to play beside. The issue becomes, even if Kobe would like to play with Deng, would this be the only deal that LA would accept and also leave the Bulls minimally gutted?


----------



## DaBabyBullz

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

Screw the Lakers, Kobe, and the horse they rode in on. I'm just hoping we don't get him, period. If they do get the scumbag though, it'd better not be at the expense of pretty much the whole team.


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

Why is there a new Kobe thread every other day? Shouldn't this be merged?


----------



## quench23

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

Kobe will be in Chicago before December 16th.


----------



## BG7

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*

Deng and PJ for Kobe is fair. I wouldn't be too upset with that, but I'd rather just keep all our players and roll with that. Hinrich and Brown is the only one I really wouldn't be upset about.

Still, trading for Kobe makes no sense. Lets just wait for one of the Suns or Memphis to stumble, and offer up a package for Gasol or Amare. They're bigs..they fit a need. Kobe...screw him, Gordon and Deng (and maybe even Hinrich) will be better than him in 3 years. Suns/Memphis love the guys we've drafted so far.

Offer up a package consisting of Tyrus, Noah, Thabo as the basis for Amare/Gasol. They're more reasonable because of their smaller contracts. 

Tyrus, Noah, Thabo, and Duhon can get us either Amare or Gasol salary wise. 

PG-Kirk Hinrich/JamesOn Curry
SG-Ben Gordon/Luol Deng/Thomas Gardener
SF-Luol Deng/Andres Nocioni
PF-Amare Stoudemire/Joe Smith
C- Ben Wallace/Aaron Gray

Aaron Gray will end up better than Joakim Noah, so I'm not too worried about trading him. Gray will slide into the starting spot next to Amare when the time comes. This is what we have to be looking at. Not Kobe...this is a championship favorite....the Bulls with a gutted Kobe are looking at some first round exits.


----------



## GB

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*



lougehrig said:


> Why is there a new Kobe thread every other day? Shouldn't this be merged?


Yep.


Until something / anything happens, please keep it to this thread. When something happens, we'll start a brand new one. Thanks, folks.


----------



## King Joseus

*Re: Bulls Lakers Talking Daily About Kobe*



Mebarak said:


> Deng and PJ for Kobe is fair. I wouldn't be too upset with that, but I'd rather just keep all our players and roll with that. Hinrich and Brown is the only one I really wouldn't be upset about.
> 
> Still, trading for Kobe makes no sense. Lets just wait for one of the Suns or Memphis to stumble, and offer up a package for Gasol or Amare. They're bigs..they fit a need. Kobe...screw him, Gordon and Deng (and maybe even Hinrich) will be better than him in 3 years. Suns/Memphis love the guys we've drafted so far.
> 
> Offer up a package consisting of Tyrus, Noah, Thabo as the basis for Amare/Gasol. They're more reasonable because of their smaller contracts.
> 
> Tyrus, Noah, Thabo, and Duhon can get us either Amare or Gasol salary wise.
> 
> PG-Kirk Hinrich/JamesOn Curry
> SG-Ben Gordon/Luol Deng/Thomas Gardener
> SF-Luol Deng/Andres Nocioni
> PF-Amare Stoudemire/Joe Smith
> C- Ben Wallace/Aaron Gray
> 
> Aaron Gray will end up better than Joakim Noah, so I'm not too worried about trading him. Gray will slide into the starting spot next to Amare when the time comes. This is what we have to be looking at. Not Kobe...this is a championship favorite....*the Bulls with a gutted Kobe are looking at some first round exits*.


I think _anybody_ with a gutted Kobe is looking at some hard times, no?

:biggrin:


----------



## lougehrig

Mixed about Kobe coming here. I just hope it's a new Kobe. A mature Kobe. A leader Kobe. This is Skiles team. Not any player's. If he can do all that, we can be unstoppable.

If he wants to run this team like he did the Lakers forget it. He destroyed that team.

Gordon, Noah or Tyrus, PJ, Duhon and a 1st? I'd hate to lose Noah AND Tyrus.


----------



## The ROY

I'm hoping for a Gordon/Nocioni/Noah/Duhon for Kobe deal.

G Hinrich / Curry
G Bryant / Sefolosha
F Deng / Khyrapa / Griffin
F Smith / Thomas
C Wallace / Gray

That team has it all : scoring, defense, experience, youth, speed, discipline

I'm really hoping for this deal.


----------



## Sith

The ROY said:


> I'm hoping for a Gordon/Nocioni/Noah/Duhon for Kobe deal.
> 
> G Hinrich / Curry
> G Bryant / Sefolosha
> F Deng / Khyrapa / Griffin
> F Smith / Thomas
> C Wallace / Gray
> 
> That team has it all : scoring, defense, experience, youth, speed, discipline
> 
> I'm really hoping for this deal.


Lakers will not do the deal. I'm actually pretty contend in giving up Kirk+Gordon+Noah for Kobe. 

Duhon
kobe/Thabo
Deng/noc
tyrus/smith
wallce/gray

u gonna give something for something.

we still retain our 2 guys with the most potential in deng/tyrus. as solid as kirk is, i dont think he's that great. duhon can step in and put up pretty good numbers. ball will be in kobe's hand most of the time anyway with either duhon or kirk. then kobe vs gordon, no discussion needed there.


----------



## BG7

Why would you trade an All NBA First team member and an All NBA Third team member for Kobe? What a waste.


----------



## The ROY

Sith said:


> Lakers will not do the deal. I'm actually pretty contend in giving up Kirk+Gordon+Noah for Kobe.
> 
> Duhon
> kobe/Thabo
> Deng/noc
> tyrus/smith
> wallce/gray
> 
> u gonna give something for something.
> 
> we still retain our 2 guys with the most potential in deng/tyrus. as solid as kirk is, i dont think he's that great. duhon can step in and put up pretty good numbers. ball will be in kobe's hand most of the time anyway with either duhon or kirk. then kobe vs gordon, no discussion needed there.


No way is Kirk being moved if Kobe's coming, none.

Gordon/Noah/Nocioni/Duhon + future 1st is more than enough for Kobe.


----------



## lougehrig

Sith said:


> Lakers will not do the deal. I'm actually pretty contend in giving up Kirk+Gordon+Noah for Kobe.
> 
> Duhon
> kobe/Thabo
> Deng/noc
> tyrus/smith
> wallce/gray
> 
> u gonna give something for something.
> 
> we still retain our 2 guys with the most potential in deng/tyrus. as solid as kirk is, i dont think he's that great. duhon can step in and put up pretty good numbers. ball will be in kobe's hand most of the time anyway with either duhon or kirk. then kobe vs gordon, no discussion needed there.


The Lakers have alot less leverage than you might think. Especially with Kobe owning a no-trade. If they want Kobe gone, they'll do what they have to do to get rid of him. Getting a borderline All-Star (Gordon) is a good take. Look at way Philly got for AI without a no-trade clause. I know it pains alot of Laker fans and Kobe fans that he is only worth Gordon, Noc, Noah, Duhon for example, but no way the Bulls give away two of their core (core being Gordon, Deng, Hinrich, Noc, Wallace (maybe even Tyrus).


----------



## Bullsky

If the Bulls get Kobe, I'm done with them and the NBA all together.


----------



## DengNabbit

Bullsky said:


> If the Bulls get Kobe, I'm done with them and the NBA all together.


reason?

I hear you on not liking him, in a general way. he seems like a jerk, and he takes away from the team game when he wants to.


But in the NBA, you win a championship by having a star. The Pistons were an aberration. the fact that they deserved more than just one title tells you something. Spurs, Heat, Houston, Jordan-Bulls.... all had stars.

LeBron took a team to the finals, and really didnt have anyone else along for the ride.




so, if the other LeBron wants to play for your team, you make a trade for him. if it's anywhere within reason, you just make the trade.


----------



## Bullsky

DengNabbit said:


> reason?
> 
> I hear you on not liking him, in a general way. he seems like a jerk, and he takes away from the team game when he wants to.
> 
> 
> But in the NBA, you win a championship by having a star. The Pistons were an aberration. the fact that they deserved more than just one title tells you something. Spurs, Heat, Houston, Jordan-Bulls.... all had stars.
> 
> LeBron took a team to the finals, and really didnt have anyone else along for the ride.
> 
> so, if the other LeBron wants to play for your team, you make a trade for him. if it's anywhere within reason, you just make the trade.


Why can't we keep our players and develop them into stars? I think Deng, Gordon, Thomas, and Noah can be stars in this league. Hinrich could even be a late bloomer-star.

The Bulls play team basketball and they are one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the league. That is why I watch and root for them. If he comes aboard, I can't watch them anymore. I just can't.


----------



## Sith

I think people have overrated the term "Depth" too much in the NBA. Like it or not, basketball is a game of stars. Unlike 
baseball and football, where depth is probably more important than 1 or 2 star players. Let me ask you this :" what's the good of having 12 deep when you can only play put 5 players at the court at any given moment"? and it's not like you can only play half of the game, you can play 40mins. 

Kirk+Gordon+Noah for kobe is an absolute steal for the Bulls. But I think lakers will ask for Kirk+gordon+tyrus.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

Bullsky said:


> Why can't we keep our players and develop them into stars? I think Deng, Gordon, Thomas, and Noah can be stars in this league. Hinrich could even be a late bloomer-star.
> 
> The Bulls play team basketball and they are one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the league. That is why I watch and root for them. If he comes aboard, I can't watch them anymore. I just can't.


That's how I see it as well. Tyrus could very well turn into a legit star. The others you mentioned could turn into marginal stars, or at the very least, very good players. 

If they get Kobe, the NBA is dead to me till he's gone, maybe forever, unless I can make myself watch Durant, the Blazers, or maybe the T Wolves now that they might not be quite so boring with Gerald Green and Brewer.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

I agree with the ROY rhough, as to what I'd be willing to give for him, if I wanted to get him. Gordon is a must, from both team's perspectives. Nocioni, Noah (I'd actually like to get rid of him anyway) and Duchump (again would like to see him leave). There's no way I'd include Hinrich OR Tyrus either one.


----------



## lougehrig

Sith said:


> I think people have overrated the term "Depth" too much in the NBA. Like it or not, basketball is a game of stars. Unlike
> baseball and football, where depth is probably more important than 1 or 2 star players. Let me ask you this :" what's the good of having 12 deep when you can only play put 5 players at the court at any given moment"? and it's not like you can only play half of the game, you can play 40mins.
> 
> Kirk+Gordon+Noah for kobe is an absolute steal for the Bulls. But I think lakers will ask for Kirk+gordon+tyrus.


More blind Kobe love. How boring. 

What's the good of having 12 deep? Actually most successful teams have a rotation of 8-9 players. There's a hundred times in the NBA where stars have had no help and self destructed. Garnett and AI last year. Saying you can only play 5 players on the court at any given moment is hilarious. Nocioni coming off the bench playing 20 minutes a night can outplay a star who has to play 48 minutes a night. 

The NBA is about efficiency. Maximizing every minute on the floor with efficient offensive and defensive play. This is accomplished with a balance of energy, skill and heart. Not just putting out superstar players on the court. So we get Kobe and you expect Lebron or Bosh or KG to give up?

So in 2004, when Kobe AND Shaq (two of the biggest stars in the league) lost to Detroit and their 8-9 non superstars. What's the explanation for that if the NBA is about stars?

If you are looking for highlight reel dunks and 81 point games, then you are caught up in the flashy side of the game. We're building a winner here. Bringing Kobe in doesn't make us better if we lose our chemistry and give up our players who sacrifice for the team.


----------



## The ROY

LOL

Those saying they won't watch the Bulls if Kobe's traded here are lying to themselves.

We're BULLS fans, regardless of the player.

I watched them when Mark Bryant was on here and we were BUMS. If Kobe becomes a Bull, it brings excitement to the city and the entire league.

I love Ben Gordon, but he'll always be an undersized 2-guard who's about average defensively. Yes, he can hit game winners but he's also streaky.

If he's the main component of the trade without giving up ALOT more, by all means, make the trade.

We're talking about a 50 greatest player of all time (not inducted yet, but he WILL be).

I hope it happens. I love the way Paxson has built this team but it's still flawed. Kobe eliminates two of our most pressing needs : a go-to guy & a bigger sg.

I also believe Kirk's game will excel by just playing PG all game. He'd probably become a 16ppg / 10apg type of pg with Kobe here & Deng becoming bonafide.


----------



## lougehrig

The ROY said:


> LOL
> 
> Those saying they won't watch the Bulls if Kobe's traded here are lying to themselves.


True. We are all Bulls fans. We probably will watch the games. 

I think the thing that alot of people miss is the pride alot of Bulls fans have in this team. The pride in knowing the Bulls are the hardest working team in the NBA. The pride is sacrificing for the good of the team. The pride as being the one team others don't want to play because of this intensity. I know I am proud to be a Bulls fans. It's important to maintain the PaxSkiles commitment, intensity, drive.

Where do you think this comes from? I think it's a precedent created by MJ. MJ was the most talented player of his generation, yet he was the hardest worker. He never quit or complained. His mere will was the foundation of the Bulls championships and it spread to all 15 guys on the roster.

Kobe has spent his entire life trying to be MJ. Well athletically and technically Kobe can do the things that MJ could. Mentally, heart, emotion his cannot. Kobe has the chance to do what MJ did long ago. Sacrifice his game and become the ultimate leader and competitor. 

Alot of fans would be insulted if Kobe came here with his current "me first" attitude. I don't care how exciting he is. I don't care how many points he scores. If he destroys this team and all the progress we've made over the last 10 yeas, I will probably give up being a Bulls fan.

This is a huge decision for this organization. It's a huge risk to sell what we've done for Kobe. It's not a drop in the bucket like trading for a warrior like KG. I heard all the amazing things KG has done for his new team to build the teamwork and spirit. Will Kobe do this? Or will be he worried about parading around Chicago like the second coming of MJ? After he wins us a few titles, then he can do that.


----------



## King Joseus

lougehrig said:


> True. We are all Bulls fans. We probably will watch the games.
> 
> I think the thing that alot of people miss is the pride alot of Bulls fans have in this team. The pride in knowing the Bulls are the hardest working team in the NBA. The pride is sacrificing for the good of the team. The pride as being the one team others don't want to play because of this intensity. I know I am proud to be a Bulls fans. It's important to maintain the PaxSkiles commitment, intensity, drive.
> 
> Where do you think this comes from? I think it's a precedent created by MJ. MJ was the most talented player of his generation, yet he was the hardest worker. He never quit or complained. His mere will was the foundation of the Bulls championships and it spread to all 15 guys on the roster.
> 
> Kobe has spent his entire life trying to be MJ. Well athletically and technically Kobe can do the things that MJ could. Mentally, heart, emotion his cannot. Kobe has the chance to do what MJ did long ago. Sacrifice his game and become the ultimate leader and competitor.
> 
> Alot of fans would be insulted if Kobe came here with his current "me first" attitude. I don't care how exciting he is. I don't care how many points he scores. If he destroys this team and all the progress we've made over the last 10 yeas, I will probably give up being a Bulls fan.
> 
> This is a huge decision for this organization. It's a huge risk to sell what we've done for Kobe. It's not a drop in the bucket like trading for a warrior like KG. I heard all the amazing things KG has done for his new team to build the teamwork and spirit. Will Kobe do this? Or will be he worried about parading around Chicago like the second coming of MJ? After he wins us a few titles, then he can do that.


I think you've painted the wrong picture of Kobe in your head, and I'm not sure where it came from. The guy wants to win, and suggesting that he'll parade around Chicago before accomplishing anything of note (winning the Finals) comes off as silly to me.

http://www.esquire.com/features/the-game/kobebryant1107

There's a good read, at least IMO.


----------



## T.Shock

I'll reiterate my usual statement. Look at recent value for stars who "asked" for a trade.

Shaq, McGrady, and Iverson come to mind. If you look at those deals here is what you see.

1-borderline all-star player
1-up-and-coming young player
1-cap relief
1-future pick

I'd say Gordon, Nocioni, Noah, and a re-signed PJ Brown is a good deal. We'd still have...

Hinrich/Duhon
Bryant/Sefolosha
Deng/Griffin
Smith/Thomas
Wallace/Gray

with Curry, Gardner, Khryapa, and another big man on the deep bench.

I'd love to see a Kobe, Hinrich, Deng led team face off against Jesus Shuttlesworth, KG, and Paul Pierce in the ECF.


----------



## SALO

Jackson worried about Bryant's commitment



> Three days before the start of a season prefaced by a summer of discontent and a fall of uncertainty for Kobe Bryant, the Lakers guard is still not fully committed to the team in the opinion of his coach, Phil Jackson.
> 
> "Obviously he hasn't thrown his heart and soul into performing on the floor," Jackson said after practice Saturday at the team's El Segundo training facility. "That hurts me a little bit. . . . He was going to work at this thing and [would] put his full being into this. Right now, he's having a hard time doing that."
> 
> Asked specifically what Bryant is struggling with, Jackson replied, "Mentally getting himself here and playing hard. . . . Is that a surprise to you guys? I mean I'm not breaking new news."
> 
> It came as news to Bryant, who responded to Jackson's remarks by denying any lack of commitment on his part.
> 
> "That [should be] the least of his concerns or anybody's concerns," Bryant said. "You don't have to worry about that. . . . I'm ready to play. Period. You don't have to worry about me."


So Phil thinks Kobe has been pulling a Vince Carter and is just going through the motions. I think Phil is right, but I bet Kobe feels disrespected right now. The longer this drags on, the better for us... or whichever other team lands Kobe. His trade value will only drop lower the longer they wait. Dogging it in preseason is one thing, but once the real games begin things will get even uglier.


----------



## Eternal

lougehrig said:


> True. We are all Bulls fans. We probably will watch the games.
> 
> I think the thing that alot of people miss is the pride alot of Bulls fans have in this team. The pride in knowing the Bulls are the hardest working team in the NBA. The pride is sacrificing for the good of the team. The pride as being the one team others don't want to play because of this intensity. I know I am proud to be a Bulls fans. It's important to maintain the PaxSkiles commitment, intensity, drive.
> 
> Where do you think this comes from? I think it's a precedent created by MJ. MJ was the most talented player of his generation, yet he was the hardest worker. He never quit or complained. His mere will was the foundation of the Bulls championships and it spread to all 15 guys on the roster.
> 
> Kobe has spent his entire life trying to be MJ. Well athletically and technically Kobe can do the things that MJ could. Mentally, heart, emotion his cannot. Kobe has the chance to do what MJ did long ago. Sacrifice his game and become the ultimate leader and competitor.
> 
> Alot of fans would be insulted if Kobe came here with his current "me first" attitude. I don't care how exciting he is. I don't care how many points he scores. If he destroys this team and all the progress we've made over the last 10 yeas, I will probably give up being a Bulls fan.
> 
> This is a huge decision for this organization. It's a huge risk to sell what we've done for Kobe. It's not a drop in the bucket like trading for a warrior like KG. I heard all the amazing things KG has done for his new team to build the teamwork and spirit. Will Kobe do this? Or will be he worried about parading around Chicago like the second coming of MJ? After he wins us a few titles, then he can do that.


Kobe fits right in with the Bulls in terms of commitment and the heart to win. He is one of the hardest workers if not the hardest worker in the league.


----------



## lougehrig

King Joseus said:


> I think you've painted the wrong picture of Kobe in your head, and I'm not sure where it came from. The guy wants to win, and suggesting that he'll parade around Chicago before accomplishing anything of note (winning the Finals) comes off as silly to me.
> 
> http://www.esquire.com/features/the-game/kobebryant1107
> 
> There's a good read, at least IMO.


Just compare how Kobe is handling LA and how he's handled his career since 2004 (feud with Phil Jackson, feud with Shaq, 2006 1st round playoff game seven no shots, complaining last off-season, asking to be traded this off-season) to KG who said and did all the right things.

KG made sure they announce Pierce last, made sure it's Pierce's team, rented a movie theatre so the 15 Celtics could bond.

Being married to Kobe can be a nightmare for this organization. He gets away with alot because of his play and ability. If Kobe comes here and shuts up and plays hard, great I can't wait.


----------



## ozziesoxbulls

DaBabyBullz said:


> That's how I see it as well. Tyrus could very well turn into a legit star. The others you mentioned could turn into marginal stars, or at the very least, very good players.
> 
> If they get Kobe, the NBA is dead to me till he's gone, maybe forever, unless I can make myself watch Durant, the Blazers, or maybe the T Wolves now that they might not be quite so boring with Gerald Green and Brewer.



no,no guys i say throw in the trade united center too plus skiles,damn u stupid lakers:thumbdown: :thumbdown:


----------



## Sith

lougehrig said:


> More blind Kobe love. How boring.
> 
> What's the good of having 12 deep? Actually most successful teams have a rotation of 8-9 players. There's a hundred times in the NBA where stars have had no help and self destructed. Garnett and AI last year. Saying you can only play 5 players on the court at any given moment is hilarious. Nocioni coming off the bench playing 20 minutes a night can outplay a star who has to play 48 minutes a night.
> 
> The NBA is about efficiency. Maximizing every minute on the floor with efficient offensive and defensive play. This is accomplished with a balance of energy, skill and heart. Not just putting out superstar players on the court. So we get Kobe and you expect Lebron or Bosh or KG to give up?
> 
> So in 2004, when Kobe AND Shaq (two of the biggest stars in the league) lost to Detroit and their 8-9 non superstars. What's the explanation for that if the NBA is about stars?
> 
> If you are looking for highlight reel dunks and 81 point games, then you are caught up in the flashy side of the game. We're building a winner here. Bringing Kobe in doesn't make us better if we lose our chemistry and give up our players who sacrifice for the team.



more blind love for the depth, how boring.

Like it or not, NBA games are for stars. you repeatly brought up the pistons won it all without any superstar. This is the only year in the last 30 years that NBA championship has been won by a team without a clearcut top3 player in the NBA that season? I think your argument of Kobe will mess up the Bulls chemistry is pretty inaccurate, you fear that Kobe will not have the heart and desire to win games? as many of the posters pointed out, kobe is one of the hardest if not the hardest worker in the NBA.The difference between Kobe and other elite guards like T-mac is the heart and desire to win every game. Don't worry, Kobe will always give you 110% every night, he will leave it all on the court. 

I caught up in the flashy side of the game? If you are not in the game to see the exciting things like scoring 81pts, highlight reel dunks, then I think you are in the wrong sport. and your last comment is just laughable " Bringing Kobe in doesn't make us better if we lose our chemistry and give up our players who sacrifice for the team." So you are saying you won't even trade people like Noc and duhon because they sacrifice for the team? Let me borrow a quote from Phil Hellmuth (in case u didnt know who Phil Hellmuth is, he's a poker pro) "Do you know who I'm? Am I not Phil hellmuth? the Best poker player in the world" "Do you not know who we are working to get" It's Mr. Kobe freakin Bryant. 
Who's only still 29, If KG at 32 could get you Al Jefferson, Green, cap reliefs and picks, you damn well not offering the Lakers Gordon/Noc/Noah. I'm as big of Bulls as anyone here, but sometimes the blind love for home players have to go to a clear view of players value. people who are not bulls fans are laughing at some of the offers posted here. what's the point of keeping bringing up offers like gordon/noc/duhon/vik/griffins? yeah everyone else is really dumb, about we just give them all our craps for their stars.

and you wonder why most rumored trades on websites are always seem to be WAY too much for the bulls to give up? this is because this is how an outsider views on players values. that deng/gordon/noah/tyrus for kobe i agree is too much to give u, but it's more closer than the offers like gordon//noc/duhon/vik/griffins. 

I think I have to put you up there with people like John Paxson who cna't let go their young players. yeha it's great yada yada just to see the list of young assets we have on this team. it makes you happy that because every year we will be right there mixed in the pack. We will win some games, but we will never win the championship with our current rosters. When someone like kobe becomes avaiable and wants to come to chicago, you freaking make a nice SMART offer not 
a pansy one and get it done.


----------



## MikeDC

More Kobe talk from ESPN


> The Los Angeles Lakers and Chicago Bulls have been having *daily discussions* about Bryant trade possibilities for at least the past week, with Bryant's no-trade clause throwing a unique wrench into the situation, according to sources.
> 
> The Lakers are asking for a package built around Luol Deng, Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah, which is more than Chicago is willing to surrender. Also, Bryant would not want to play in Chicago if the Bulls surrendered all four of those players, believing there would not be enough talent left to compete for a championship, and he would veto that trade even if the Bulls and Lakers were both in favor of it.


LOL at what the Lakers are asking for, but the phrase "daily discussions" is pretty interesting.


----------



## johnston797

MikeDC said:


> More Kobe talk from ESPN
> 
> 
> LOL at what the Lakers are asking for, but the phrase "daily discussions" is pretty interesting.


Hmmm..... Maybe every day, Mitch calls and asks for to much. And every day Pax says no.


----------



## kukoc4ever

lougehrig said:


> We're building a winner here.


Winning what?


----------



## kukoc4ever

One danger with letting this thing fester in LA until it hits critical mass is that Kobe may become so frustrated that he'll be less picky about what team he'll go to. His strange MJ fantasy is one of the best advantages the Bulls have in this thing.

If he and the Lakers get miserable enough, the list of teams he's willing to go to could expand.

What LA is looking for is clearly ridiculous. A subset of those guys though is fair deal.

His ego is something to worry about as well, but Paxson at some point is going to have to take a risk. This group is a nice feel good story, but we should be trying to build a NBA champion, not a case study in Paxson's "right way."


----------



## DaBullz

The talks between the Lakers and the Bulls do seem to be pretty hot and ongoing at this point in time. However, PJax is talking like Kobe has been distracted by all this and isn't mentally ready to play (for the Lakers). Should a trade come down, it might get Kobe pumped up to play right away, or it might take a while.

Noah is out for the Nets game, and Wallace is questionable.


----------



## lougehrig

kukoc4ever said:


> Winning what?


Basketball games....what's the point of this comment? No NBA titles means we're not building a winner? Ever watch the Bulls before MJ won 6 titles? What were they winning fom 1984-1990? Nothing. They should have blown those teams up and traded MJ for Isiah Thomas I guess.


----------



## The ROY

Personally, I think it will happen eventually. Let us not forget the fact that our team is sort of 'cluttered'. I'd say by mid-season, we'll start hearing some very loud complaints of minutes by some players.

I also remember an article around the draft that said Noah MAY have been dealt to L.A. in a deal @ the time. If they don't wanna trade him (Kobe) to Dallas since their both in the same conference, his only choice may truely be Chicago.

I still believe Duhon & Khyrapa are here for a reason and that's mainly as assets to move and remain here after a trade has been made.

I like our team but we already knew sooner or later we'd have to make a deal @ some point.


----------



## lougehrig

Eternal said:


> Kobe fits right in with the Bulls in terms of commitment and the heart to win. He is one of the hardest workers if not the hardest worker in the league.


I hope that's true. He has to prove that to Hinrich, Wallace, Skiles, Paxson, Deng. Kobe is welcome here as long as he checks the ego at the door.


----------



## kukoc4ever

lougehrig said:


> Basketball games....what's the point of this comment? No NBA titles means we're not building a winner?


It means we have a good but not great team that plays with a lot of energy and outworks teams during the regular season.

If we keep getting steps up from Deng, Gordon and TT comes in to his own, we could have more than that. 

The regular season does not matter. It gains access to and determines home court advantage for the playoffs. That is its only purpose. The goal should be to win conferences and championships.

Its a tough call Paxson has to make here. Content with good but not great, perhaps great in the future (but we don't look to have a top 10 NBA guy on the team, save for perhaps Deng) or consolidate (which we need to do anyway) and get the best player in the NBA and try to win the NBA Championship. I don't envy him.

Hinrich/Kobe/Deng/(NoahorTT and Smith)/Wallace seems like a nice squad to make a run with the next couple years though. That team could win the NBA Championship.



> Ever watch the Bulls before MJ won 6 titles? What were they winning fom 1984-1990? Nothing. They should have blown those teams up and traded MJ for Isiah Thomas I guess.


Who is the young MJ on our team?


----------



## GB

lougehrig said:


> Basketball games....what's the point of this comment? No NBA titles means we're not building a winner? Ever watch the Bulls before MJ won 6 titles? What were they winning fom 1984-1990? Nothing. They should have blown those teams up and traded MJ for Isiah Thomas I guess.


Agreed.


----------



## GB

kukoc4ever said:


> It means we have a good but not great team that plays with a lot of energy and outworks teams during the regular season.


Saying they outwork other teams, IMHO, insults them. They _outplayed_ those teams.


----------



## narek

I was kind of hoping when I got back from a brief vacation in a place where I don't get much NBA news that this story would be over one way or the other. Both Mike McGraw and KC Johnson seem to think there isn't any trade coming soon:



> Another day, another Kobe-Bryant-to-the-Bulls rumor.
> 
> Chris Sheridan of ESPN.com reported Saturday that the Bulls and Lakers are having daily trade talks regarding Bryant, whom many, including me, regard as the best and most dominant player in the game. His report said the Bulls wouldn't part with a package of Luol Deng, Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah. Others say the Lakers haven't asked for that particular package.
> 
> Which brings us to this question: How is this story any different from when Bryant first went public with his dissatisfaction with the Lakers last spring? It's widely known and accepted around the league that Bryant wants out of Los Angeles. It's also widely known that Bryant, the only NBA player with a no-trade clause, has an appreciation for the Bulls after a free-agent dalliance with general manager John Paxson and team Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf.
> 
> What's more locally known is that Paxson simply won't mortgage his team for one player. Would he trade for Bryant? Absolutely. But only on his terms. And the Lakers aren't in fire-sale mode on Bryant, at least not of today.
> 
> This is a fluid situation. Could it result in Bryant wearing a Bulls uniform? Anything's possible. *But even Sheridan, a respected reporter and solid post-game company, doesn't report any sources with a Bulls-Bryant deal that does work. That's because one hasn't been found yet and may never be*.


http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/fullcourtpress/

and 



> At the same time, the Lakers are in no hurry to deal their high-scoring star. The Bulls are not willing to meet the Lakers' asking price and Bryant, who has a no-trade clause in his contract, would not agree to join a team if its roster was gutted.
> 
> Even though Lakers owner Jerry Buss said recently he'd consider trading Bryant, team management seems to be hoping that Bryant will feel better about his current situation if the Lakers get off to a good start when the NBA season begins next week.
> 
> The Bryant-to-the-Bulls speculation could die down in a few days if Ben Gordon signs a contract extension before Wednesday's deadline.
> 
> The Bulls are open to trading for Bryant, but are not likely to package two of their three young stars -- Gordon, Luol Deng and Kirk Hinrich -- in such a deal.
> 
> At the same time, Bryant is owed an average of $22.1 million over the next four years, if he doesn't exercise an opt-out clause in 2009, and the Bulls would need to send back a large contract to avoid a hefty luxury tax bill. The Lakers aren't likely to take on Ben Wallace's contract, which would leave Andres Nocioni as the only other candidate.
> 
> So the Bulls might consider a package of Gordon and Nocioni for Bryant, along with some combination of Tyrus Thomas, Joakim Noah or Thabo Sefolosha. But Nocioni cannot be dealt until Dec. 15 because he signed a new contract during the summer.
> 
> Then if Gordon signs an extension, he and Nocioni could not be traded together until next summer, because of salary-cap rules that restrict trading players for a year after they receive a large salary increase.
> 
> The Bulls are already considered one of the top contenders in the Eastern Conference. They don't figure to have much incentive to acquire Bryant at a high price unless they are playing poorly in February before the trade deadline.


http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=65918&src=150

I wonder how much of this press stuff is an attempt to manipulate things.


----------



## lougehrig

Phil Jackson questions Kobe's commitment and states he's not giving his "heart and soul" to the game.



> "Obviously he hasn't thrown his heart and soul into performing on the floor," Jackson told reporters after practice Saturday. "That hurts me a little bit. … He was going to work at this thing and [would] put his full being into this. Right now, he's having a hard time doing that."


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3083800

Thanks for the warning Phil. Still a true Bull at heart.


----------



## such sweet thunder

Manipulate in which way? I wonder if Sheridan's report came from the Lakers -- I could see that as possible. It's the first time we've heard that Kobe is using his no-trade clause to as leverage to force the Lakers in to a weaker deal. If I was a GM I'd like my fan base to know that before I traded the best player in the league. I know we've heard about a Kobe trade for months, but I actually think something will happen, and should happen, on December 15th.


----------



## narek

such sweet thunder said:


> Manipulate in which way? I wonder if Sheridan's report came from the Lakers -- I could see that as possible. It's the first time we've heard that Kobe is using his no-trade clause to as leverage to force the Lakers in to a weaker deal. If I was a GM I'd like my fan base to know that before I traded the best player in the league. I know we've heard about a Kobe trade for months, but I actually think something will happen, and should happen, on December 15th.


I think someone may be trying to force some action, but I'm not sure who.

It's not a very good attempt, but this all seems so weird. Of course, it could be just one ESPN columnist trying to get a scoop on another ESPN columnist.


----------



## BeZerker2008

Lets say we do go and get kobe at at least for the reasonable sum people want to give up, can't we go after Elton Brand in the summer? or is that only by S&T?


----------



## such sweet thunder

narek said:


> I think someone may be trying to force some action, but I'm not sure who.
> 
> It's not a very good attempt, but this all seems so weird. Of course, it could be just one ESPN columnist trying to get a scoop on another ESPN columnist.


There's no advantage to Bryant or the Bulls in having that information leaked. Of course, it could just be something that got accidentally revealed. If it was leaked, we know its from the Lakers brass.


----------



## The ROY

BeZerker2008 said:


> Lets say we do go and get kobe at at least for the reasonable sum people want to give up, can't we go after Elton Brand in the summer? or is that only by S&T?



With WHAT money? lol

On top of that, Brand already stated he hates Chicago's weather (as did Brad Miller) plus he's doing some directing/producing in Cali so I'm sure he doesn't have plans to leave his comfort zone.


----------



## McBulls

such sweet thunder said:


> There's no advantage to Bryant or the Bulls in having that information leaked. Of course, it could just be something that got accidentally revealed. If it was leaked, we know its from the Lakers brass.


Maybe the Lakers are trying to share some of their discomfort with the situation with the Bulls. Now four rotation players have their names mentioned in the press as possible trade bait. A bit harder to concentrate on New Jersey when you are thinking at least part time about whether there is any place available to live in Southern California right now.


----------



## such sweet thunder

McBulls said:


> Maybe the Lakers are trying to share some of their discomfort with the situation with the Bulls. Now four rotation players have their names mentioned in the press as possible trade bait. A bit harder to concentrate on New Jersey when you are thinking at least part time about whether there is any place available to live in Southern California right now.


I know Pax can't be happy about that, huh. Or the players for that matter. Ben must be beside himself, knowing that he's trying to negotiate a contract that would keep him in Chicago. I really feel for him -- even if it may be in the best interest of the team and therefore the fan base to get Ben at a discount. It sucks.


----------



## narek

Our man Sam chimes in on the smoke and no fire:

This looks like it could be one of the most important weeks in Bulls history. This is the week they may or may not trade for Kobe Bryant.



> I'm told this by sources who may or may not know.
> 
> And by the way, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
> 
> Sure, it's a stupid reference (Saturday Night Live, mid-1970s). But this Bryant saga is getting more and more stupid.
> 
> *I was contacted by an ESPN program Sunday asking if I'd be up early Monday to answer questions about the trade if Bryant is dealt to the Bulls Sunday night. I told them to sleep in, too.*
> 
> Let's see if I can recap this Kobe Bryant-to-the-Bulls thing.
> 
> ESPN came in latest with a deal for Luol Deng, Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah. What, no LuvaBulls, too? I am assured, though, that the Bulls said a definite no to giving up the fat-guy dancers.
> 
> The Lakers also would like the rights to Dragan Tarlac, Dalibor Bagaric and Michael Jordan's lucky underwear. But there appears to be a hang-up about the rights to Kornel David, the Hungarian Jordan.
> 
> That came after talk it would be Gordon, Kirk Hinrich and Ben Wallace ... which was after rumors of Gordon, Hinrich and Andres Nocioni, though that would have to wait until after Dec. 15 when Nocioni can be traded.
> 
> That would basically leave Bryant playing with Thabo Sefolosha, Chris Duhon, Aaron Gray and Viktor Khryapa.
> 
> Can you say Title No. 7?
> 
> This is what I think is going on: Bryant wants to be traded to the Bulls. (News flash there, eh?) The Bulls have a chance to obtain the best player in the NBA and are interested. (Who'd have imagined that?) The Lakers have the best player in the NBA who doesn't want to play for them anymore, but he has two years left on his contract. They are mad at him after they gave him the best contract and the best coach in the league. OK, they said, we'll trade you. But we are running a team here. We know we can't get equal value, but we should get close, which means, say, at least one All-Star player and some pieces.


Kobe wants to go, Bulls are interested. That's it

I think the sub-head on the column says it all.


----------



## SausageKingofChicago

I would think it is in both Ben and Lu's interests to sign a deal by Wednesday , which if they do so , would certainly scotch any immediate prospects of Kobe being traded to the Bulls

I mean they can be here for $50M to early $50M's and have that security , or hold out of say late $50M's to $60M - and not have that security of the money or in their home , if , one of both blow up by Allstar break and are logical trade targets for a Kobe midseason trade

And if that were to happen its a poorer baskteball situation in LA ( meaning that they will go further at the business end of the season with Chicago than LA ) and , Papa Buss may not want to pay either of them in the RFA market and they could be sustepible to lesser bucks , and /or , a worse situation still in a sign and trade

Doomsday analysis insofar as their individual situations are concerned - but I would think signing a contract to lock in the dollars and your home into the foreseeable future on 10% to 15% discount if maybe, just maybe, you blow up and surpass all historical benchmarks...well I think its the smart commercial and basketball decision to make

And if it happens ..bye bye Kobe. At least into the foreseeable future and I'm fine with that


----------



## SausageKingofChicago

Imagine how empowering it is to your team to address them all individually ( in terms of who has been nominated in rumours ) and then collectively and communicate the message that we perhaps had the opportunity of sending a few of you out for the best player in the game but we said no because we chose all of you individually and together 

You can't buy that type of goodwill / chemistry that such communication engenders


----------



## such sweet thunder

SausageKingofChicago said:


> Imagine how empowering it is to your team to address them all individually ( in terms of who has been nominated in rumours ) and then collectively and communicate the message that we perhaps had the opportunity of sending a few of you out for the best player in the game but we said no because we chose all of you individually and together
> 
> You can't buy that type of goodwill / chemistry that such communication engenders


. . . if they lock up Ben Gordon. I'd be pretty concerned if I was him. It's almost as if Kobe is undercutting his negotiation power.


----------



## Ballscientist

Why not sign and trade PJ Brown to match Kobe's salaries so that you do not have to give up too much?


----------



## someone

Ballscientist said:


> Why not sign and trade PJ Brown to match Kobe's salaries so that you do not have to give up too much?


maybe cause PJ sucks and no one wants him? 

Hm just a thought. :rofl2:


----------



## narek

Here's McGraw on the whole situation:



> The Bulls open the season in New Jersey on Wednesday, but the future of the franchise may be determined 2,800 miles to the west.
> 
> As of today, the Bulls are nowhere near making a trade for unhappy Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant. The Bulls don't want to give up anything close to what the Lakers are seeking in return.
> 
> "Chances are very slim," Lakers coach Phil Jackson acknowledged Saturday. "This is not fire-sale time."
> 
> The question is, when the Lakers' season begins will Bryant put everything he has into winning games? Or will he be moody, petulant and anxious to force a trade to a new town?
> 
> It's no stretch to believe the Lakers could get off to a good start, causing Bryant's summer trade demand to be all but forgotten. Keep in mind the Lakers were 26-13 last year in mid-January, they have Chris Mihm and Vladimir Radmanovic back from injury, and young players such as Andrew Bynum, Jordan Farmar and Ronny Turiaf played well in the preseason.
> 
> On the other hand, two prominent NBA players (Ron Artest and Allen Iverson) have abandoned their teams and sought trades in the past two years. If Bryant is serious about forcing the Lakers' hand, he can get it done.
> 
> Jackson addressed that very topic over the weekend.
> 
> "Obviously, he hasn't thrown his heart and soul into performing on the floor," he said. "That hurts me a little bit."
> 
> Bryant's response was terse but defiant.
> 
> "That (should be) the least of his concerns or anybody's concerns," Bryant said. "I'm ready to play. Period. You don't have to worry about me."
> 
> Obviously, this has the potential to be a huge distraction for the Bulls.
> 
> Ben Gordon might wonder if not signing an extension by Wednesday's deadline ends up punching his ticket to Los Angeles. What if the price for Kobe drops in late November, but the Bulls can't make a deal until Dec. 15 because that's the earliest date Andres Nocioni and Joe Smith can be traded?
> 
> If the Bulls get off to a good start, general manager John Paxson will be reluctant to drop Bryant into a unified locker room. Otherwise, if it ever gets to the point where the Bulls could put Bryant on the floor with Kirk Hinrich, Luol Deng and Ben Wallace, they'd probably make the trade.
> 
> Whether that day will come before the February trade deadline is anyone's guess.


http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=66201


----------



## truebluefan

I have a feeling Kobe will be a Bull before long. As early as this week, as late as mid December.


----------



## Philomath

SausageKingofChicago said:


> I would think it is in both Ben and Lu's interests to sign a deal by Wednesday , which if they do so , would certainly scotch any immediate prospects of Kobe being traded to the Bulls
> 
> I mean they can be here for $50M to early $50M's and have that security , or hold out of say late $50M's to $60M - and not have that security of the money or in their home , if , one of both blow up by Allstar break and are logical trade targets for a Kobe midseason trade


Is it possible that Paxson is actually using the Kobe circus as a negotiating tool a bit? Not that he planned it from the beginning... but if I were Ben or Luol, my chances of playing my way into a max contract would seem more remote if there's a decent chance of me being shipped to some new team. Uncertainty and confusion mean they should take the money now, right? (Reminds me of investing in gold in turbulent times.) Given that, is it possible that Paxson's negotiating tactics and actions on the trade front might be slightly... _different _due to the possibility of getting a couple of $8 million discounts? Keeping the intrigue going is in his best interest at the negotiating table, isn't it? Just a little conspiracy theory that I probably don't believe.


----------



## MikeDC

I think the next three days are pretty crucial. The Bulls are probalby using the extension deadline both ways. I think they're trying pretty hard to get Deng locked up so he can't be included in a deal and what they want (Gordon and change) is fait accompli for the Lakers.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

This thing may actually happen.

Assuming an equitable deal can be made, are you excited about the idea of Kobe being a Bull?


I am because Kobe is the type of franchise altering superstar that has typically led teams to an NBA title (he currently is the best player in the NBA, IMO), and the Bulls are so deep that they can cough up 3 valuable assets and still have a NBA title worthy squad post Kobe trade.


----------



## GB

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

A little bit: I'd have to know the final disposition of the team. Equitable means different things to different folks.


----------



## Mr.Montross

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

No, Kobe ends the possibility of team play.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



Mr.Montross said:


> No, Kobe ends the possibility of team play.


guy's never won anything.


----------



## Rhyder

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

From a basketball standpoint, yes if we
a)Don't give up 3 of Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Tyrus, and Noah
b)Don't give up Wallace
c)Don't give up both Noah and Thomas


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

I'm both excited and terrified. I think the Bulls are in a position to get him for a reasonable price, and I have a hell of a time saying no to that.

On the other hand, I think he's a world class jerk with a holes in his record who could just as easily destroy the franchise as he could lead it to a championship. 

I'd prefer a Gordon, Thomas, Thabo, Duhon, +filler for Kobe sort of deal to happen sooner rather than wait until December and add Smith and/or Noc. For one, I like Noc and Kobe on the same team. For two, I'd rather give up some of those "prospect" types (Thomas and Thabo) and keep around the two more veteran bigs (Smith and Noc) if we're bringing in Kobe. We can pick up a backup guard or two somewhere who could approximate Duhon, but I don't see any bigs that could approximate what Smith brings.


----------



## jnrjr79

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



MikeDC said:


> I'm both excited and terrified. I think the Bulls are in a position to get him for a reasonable price, and I have a hell of a time saying no to that.
> 
> On the other hand, I think he's a world class jerk with a holes in his record who could just as easily destroy the franchise as he could lead it to a championship.
> 
> I'd prefer a Gordon, Thomas, Thabo, Duhon, +filler for Kobe sort of deal to happen sooner rather than wait until December and add Smith and/or Noc. For one, I like Noc and Kobe on the same team. For two, I'd rather give up some of those "prospect" types (Thomas and Thabo) and keep around the two more veteran bigs (Smith and Noc) if we're bringing in Kobe. We can pick up a backup guard or two somewhere who could approximate Duhon, but I don't see any bigs that could approximate what Smith brings.


Wow. This encapsulates my sentiments exactly. I really like the players we have now, and I really detest Kobe Bryant on a personal level, but I acknowledge he is a world-class talent that could potentially bring the Bulls a championship. I'm excited about the prospect of that championship, and scared of the possibility he sinks the franchise and its long-term ability to succeed if the team is too thoroughly gutted.

Either way, it sure will be interesting.


----------



## King Joseus

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

Excited about getting Kobe in an equitable deal? Yes.

We'll see if it happens.


----------



## Fred

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

strictly poll answer no, right now i'm not when i see a lot of the potential trade scenarios. Depending on who they gave up, i would be excited after that.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

I'll 3rd the Mikedc post.

Absolutely can't stand Kobe. Would be very difficult for me to root for him, personally. But his addition to the Bulls at a reasonable price could get us over the hump and my loyalty to "the laundry" trumps my disdain for The Mamba.


----------



## PD

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

It is hard not to for bringing in arguably the best player in the NBA. People would change us from pretending to contending. Look at what James did for the Cavs, and Kidd and the Nets actually made to the Finals twice. I wouldn't mind seeing the Bulls in the Finals.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

an equitable trade would be great for the nba, balancing some power and excitement back to the east. lebron, kobe and the celts trio, (etc) battling for the next 5 years would be cool.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

Excited at the prospect? Not unless you count negative excitement. I'm sure EVERYONE is excited about something that big, but for quite a few of us agitated or disgusted is a more accurate description. This will be yet another season where I'm just wanting the trade deadline to hurry up and pass without us making a stupid trade that ruins the team.

Personal hatred for El Rapero aside, if a package of Lil Ben, Duchump, Noc and Lucy could net the rapist it'd really be a big step forward talent-wise, but an even bigger step backwards in every other way imaginable...class, chemistry, character, appeal, etc etc.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



 King Joseus said:


> Excited about getting Kobe in an equitable deal? Yes.
> 
> We'll see if it happens.


Who said anything about equitable? I want as lopsided a deal as possible!:azdaja:


----------



## King Joseus

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



MikeDC said:


> Who said anything about equitable? I want as lopsided a deal as possible!:azdaja:


Haha, good call. I think I meant acceptable moreso than equitable.


----------



## GB

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



MikeDC said:


> Who said anything about equitable? I want as lopsided a deal as possible!:azdaja:


Good one.


----------



## THEbigO

does a trade of gordon, noah, tyrus and a first rounder work financially?


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

THEbigO said:


> does a trade of gordon, noah, tyrus and a first rounder work financially?


nope


----------



## garnett

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

If he plays like he did at the start of last season before all the injuries hit the lakers, then hell yeah. But if he wants to go on his 40-50pt game streaks then I don't want anything to do with him. 

I'd love to watch Kobe vs. Lebron and Wade for the next five years, but of course it all depends on the deal. I like our players and I don't want to get rid of too many of them.


----------



## T.Shock

Nothing really works financially right now unless PJ is signed-and-traded for like 1-year, 8.5 mil or something. Without PJ, it'd be hard. Nocioni can't be traded til Dec 15th and would still be BYC. Hinrich is BYC. If Gordon or Deng are re-signed they'll be PPP (I believe). The most sensible deal would be Gordon, Tyrus, a re-signed PJ, and our 2008 1st Round Pick. I don't know if that is enough. In my mind, Deng is off limits. No point in bringing Kobe here without a 2nd banana for him to play off of. And Deng's move-without-the-ball game is a perfect fit with Kobe. I have dreams of Kobe driving down the lane, three defenders collapsing on him, Deng drifting to the right baseline, Kobe hitting him with a perfect pass and Deng drilling one of those 18-footers. 

I'd be willing to even do Hinrich/Gordon/Tyrus/salary filler for Kobe simply because I believe Duhon can play the point adequately enough next to Kobe. And with Duhon/Kobe/Deng/Smith/Big Ben/?/Thabo/Nocioni/Noah off the bench and Griffin and Gray on the deep bench, we'd still be pretty solid. Sign a backup point guard and we're good to go. Noc, Deng, Kobe, Noah, and Wallace would be locked up for at least three more years. And the Bulls could easily go out and get a PG to replace Duhon. 

So here we go...

BULLS SEND: Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas, Adrian Griffin, Viktor Khryapa
LAKERS SEND: Kobe Bryant, Sasha Vujacic

BULLS STARTERS
PG-Chris Duhon
SG-Kobe Bryant
SF-Luol Deng
PF-Joe Smith
C-Ben Wallace

BULLS BENCH
Sasha Vujacic(PG)
Thabo Sefolosha(SG/SF)
Andres Nocioni(SF/PF)
Joakim Noah(PF/C)

BULLS DEEP BENCH
Thomas Gardner(PG)
JamesOn Curry(SG)
?(SF)
?(PF)
Aaron Gray(C)

We'd need to pick up two min free agents either from the undrafted pool or the NBDL to fill some spots out.


----------



## Bullsky

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

No, I'm not.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

yes I am. I agree he is a jerk, but so was MJ.

Yes, it has to be to our advantage. I dont see Kobe or Paxson having it any other way.


----------



## T.Shock

Just wanted to give everybody a heads up...

Chris Sheridan was just on ESPNNews and basically said that Kobe wants to be a Bull and is only open to going to another team if every option with the Bulls has been exhausted. 

Sheridan said he believes that it is "less than 50/50" that a deal gets done before Opening Night, but "significantly greater than 50/50" that Kobe is dealt by the deadline.


----------



## BG7

Personally, if I was Paxson, I'd be working on resigning Gordon right away. Resigning Luol Deng doesn't matter, since he apparently has already been established as untouchable. This effectively takes Gordon/Deng off the market.

Then you let this thing fester, until BAM! Kobe is sitting out. 

Then you have to part way with Hinrich...but Joakim Noah is the only additional asset I'd trade with Hinrich...yet unfortunately he can't be traded with Hinrich...Tyrus is untouchable, so you send Sefolosha out the door with Hinrich.

So my trade, leaving the Bulls, would be:

Bulls Trade: Kirk Hinrich, PJ Brown, Thabo Sefolosha, Viktar Khryapa, and Chris Duhon, 2008 first round pick, 2010 first round pick, 2020 first round pick, 2022 first round pick (top 3 protected) for Kobe Bryant, Sasha Vujacic, and Vladmir Radmanovic.


----------



## DengNabbit

Mebarak said:


> Bulls Trade: Kirk Hinrich, PJ Brown, Thabo Sefolosha, Viktar Khryapa, and Chris Duhon, 2008 first round pick, 2010 first round pick, 2020 first round pick, 2022 first round pick (top 3 protected) for Kobe Bryant, Sasha Vujacic, and Vladmir Radmanovic.



This is the only trade I've heard where I can honestly say LA would prefer a sitting Kobe. Who wants to have the chefs cook steaks for all those extra guys?


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



truebluefan said:


> yes I am. I agree he is a jerk, but so was MJ.
> 
> Yes, it has to be to our advantage. I dont see Kobe or Paxson having it any other way.


MJ was/is a jerk, but at least the basis of his basketball career wasn't a slavish impersonation of a previous legend. 

It would be awfully tough and weird to watch Kobe doing his "like Mike" routine while wearing a Bulls uniform. And the way he is quitting on the Lakers is downright shameful. I'm not so sure that getting him guarantees the Bulls anything, even if we do steal him for peanuts. 

This is a bizarre situation, and it makes me almost ill with regret that the Bulls didn't go through with the Gasol trade. 

(and to just stave off the inevitable howls of protest, we don't know exactly what Memphis was demanding, but there are numerous reports that claim it wasn't Gordon + Deng, including day-after-the-deadline articles in both Memphis and Chicago)


----------



## DaBullz

Gordon + Wallace for Kobe and filler.


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## BG7

DengNabbit said:


> This is the only trade I've heard where I can honestly say LA would prefer a sitting Kobe. Who wants to have the chefs cook steaks for all those extra guys?


If Paxson is willing to play hardball on contract negotiations, and cross the ethical barrier to attempt to get the best deal possible, why can't he just play hardball in trade negotiations.

Its actually an interesting offer. Lakers dump the bad contract of Radmanovic in this proposal. Lakers get a good young point guard in Hinrich, and a swingman prospect in Thabo. The picks are a bit different. The Lakers get their normal, immediate first roudners, that will be at the end of the first round....but they also get picks much later on, with the potential of being higher lottery picks for in a time when the Bulls could potentially suck again.


----------



## jnrjr79

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



ScottMay said:


> MJ was/is a jerk, but at least the basis of his basketball career wasn't a slavish impersonation of a previous legend.
> 
> It would be awfully tough and weird to watch Kobe doing his "like Mike" routine while wearing a Bulls uniform. And the way he is quitting on the Lakers is downright shameful. I'm not so sure that getting him guarantees the Bulls anything, even if we do steal him for peanuts.
> 
> This is a bizarre situation, and it makes me almost ill with regret that the Bulls didn't go through with the Gasol trade.
> 
> (and to just stave off the inevitable howls of protest, we don't know exactly what Memphis was demanding, but there are numerous reports that claim it wasn't Gordon + Deng, including day-after-the-deadline articles in both Memphis and Chicago)



What???? Gasol??? Are you freaking crazy!?!?! They wanted Gordon AND Deng!!!! No way!!!


:biggrin:


----------



## THEbigO

if someone told you they had "inside information" would you believe it? a guy i interned with over the summer who is a college baseball analyst for espn emailed me this afternoon with some information. he said "a guy i worked with who now works for the bulls has been emailing me all morning with updates and says the kobe trade is official but will not be announced until tomorrow." i dont believe it because the trade the guy says doesnt work financially. but i want the guy has so many connections i want to believe it but im not sure what to think. is "inside information" ever right?

im just asking because im curious what you guys think. clearly i have no link to a website or official source.


----------



## THEbigO

a little typo in there "but the guy has so many..."

im aware that i am a rookie on this board so many of you will bash this post but im just looking for opinions here.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



ScottMay said:


> MJ was/is a jerk, but at least the basis of his basketball career wasn't a slavish impersonation of a previous legend.
> 
> It would be awfully tough and weird to watch Kobe doing his "like Mike" routine while wearing a Bulls uniform. And the way he is quitting on the Lakers is downright shameful. I'm not so sure that getting him guarantees the Bulls anything, even if we do steal him for peanuts.
> 
> This is a bizarre situation, and it makes me almost ill with regret that the Bulls didn't go through with the Gasol trade.
> 
> (and to just stave off the inevitable howls of protest, we don't know exactly what Memphis was demanding, but there are numerous reports that claim it wasn't Gordon + Deng, including day-after-the-deadline articles in both Memphis and Chicago)


Cant argue with that.


----------



## BG7

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

Definitely not excited. One of the likable things about Paxson's teams is that it has all been high character guys. Why ruin that?

In addition, I think as early as next year, Gordon will be a better player than Kobe. So its not even worth trading him for Kobe. 

Kobe also has a ton of games under his belt. He's had knee problems in the past. How long can he hold up. Kobe's really in uncharted territory. He is really one of the first products of generation high school. Will the extra years of NBA conditioning allow him to hold up longer? Or will the grinding of pro season after pro season since a young age lead to a decline at a younger age (but similar amount of seasons).

Just say no to Kobe.


----------



## dsouljah9

*Big O...*

You won't get bashed by me, but I guess the general sentiment would have to be seeing is believing. And your source would have to be a credible one and not blowing smoke up your a...


----------



## BG7

Actually, it does seem like Kobe is getting traded soon. Phil Jackson was on ESPN and he said Chicago has been the most aggressive in the trade talks. And P-Jax said that he wants a deal to happen sooner rather than later. Seemed like he didn't care about gouging more value...just wanted the ordeal over with.

I think P-Jax is going to try to angle a return to Chicago, replacing Skiles.

Hopefully Paxson comes to his senses and avoids all this garbage, avoid both the P-Jax and Kobe drama. Just not worth it.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

I was excited about the idea in June & July. Now I'm just bored.


----------



## jnrjr79

THEbigO said:


> if someone told you they had "inside information" would you believe it? a guy i interned with over the summer who is a college baseball analyst for espn emailed me this afternoon with some information. he said "a guy i worked with who now works for the bulls has been emailing me all morning with updates and says the kobe trade is official but will not be announced until tomorrow." i dont believe it because the trade the guy says doesnt work financially. but i want the guy has so many connections i want to believe it but im not sure what to think. is "inside information" ever right?
> 
> im just asking because im curious what you guys think. clearly i have no link to a website or official source.



Even if it doesn't work financially, I would be interested to hear what the deal would contemplate, if you feel like sharing.


----------



## ScottMay

jnrjr79 said:


> Even if it doesn't work financially, I would be interested to hear what the deal would contemplate, if you feel like sharing.


Yeah, what he said.

The part about it that makes it more credible to me is the fact that you'd have to think both teams would rather get it done with before the season starts. It's not like having a whole summer/training camp, true, but it's got to be easier than having it happen midstream.


----------



## RageofDaBulls

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

i dont think any bulls fan can help but be excited about Kobe Bryant being a Bull..


----------



## jnrjr79

ScottMay said:


> Yeah, what he said.
> 
> The part about it that makes it more credible to me is the fact that you'd have to think both teams would rather get it done with before the season starts. It's not like having a whole summer/training camp, true, but it's got to be easier than having it happen midstream.



What's interesting is that if you're not waiting until December to make a move, I can't envision a scenario where Kobe trade doesn't involve one of the following:

1. Kirk
2. Wallace
3. A re-signed PJ Brown


All things being equal, of course #3 is most desirable, but I bet it's either #1 or 2. I value Kirk more than Ben, all things considered, but if you want to max the chances to make a run in the next couple of years, I think you can afford better to move Kirk and start Duhon rather than to lose Wallace. That said, if Wallace goes, I'd be very interested to track the development of Tyrus and Noah. Additionally, Aaron Gray's extended preseason look may make Paxson feel more comfortable about frontcourt depth.

Going to be interesting...


----------



## THEbigO

the reason i feel it is somewhat credible is the guy works for espn during the college world series. he knows people. he works for espn and played baseball for the brewers so he has connections. anyways aside from trying to give him credibility here is the deal:

kobe for gordon, thomas, noah and a first round pick


----------



## fuzznuts

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



Mebarak said:


> In addition, I think as early as next year, Gordon will be a better player than Kobe. So its not even worth trading him for Kobe.


Wow... I am absolutely a Bulls fan and love Gordon, but that statement is a far reach.

Defense alone, Gordon will never be even compared to Kobe.

Nonetheless, Kobe will put this team over the top. The Bulls are deep enough, even if it means trading two of the big three, with either young big Noah or Tyrus.

Bulls are a great young team, but are nowhere near the go to guy that all championship teams have.


----------



## jnrjr79

THEbigO said:


> the reason i feel it is somewhat credible is the guy works for espn during the college world series. he knows people. he works for espn and played baseball for the brewers so he has connections. anyways aside from trying to give him credibility here is the deal:
> 
> kobe for gordon, thomas, noah and a first round pick



I am no cap-ologist, but I'd imagine that you could throw in PJ to make up for any financial deficiency.

Gordon makes sense. Thomas makes sense. It'd be sad IMO to see Noah go, only because it's been refreshing to have a guy around with a bit of personality. They're welcome to the pick. It's not going to be a high one.

Probably a trade you'd have to do or strongly consider. The big X factor is whether Tyrus turns into something special. 


Kirk/Duhon/JamesOn
Kobe/Thabo/Gardner
Deng/Noc/Thabo/Khryapa/Griffin
Smith/Noc
Wallace/Gray


The frontcourt would be thin and in need of both immediate and long-term attention. Juwan Howard suddenly looks like a solid pickup.

My guess is that team could compete for an NBA title (if Kobe plays team ball). Anyone else agree/disagree?


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

I'm still not sure what to think of a Kobe Bryant trade. If the deal we strike up holds true to the type of superstar trades that have been done in the past (1 blue chip guy, 1 young prospect, draft pick(s), plus extras) it's hard not to like our lineup after the trade. And I think history has shown that these trades generally work well for the team that gets the superstar (Nets, Heat, Celtics.....although I guess we'll have to see on that one).

However, I think it's inevitable that Kobe will clash with the team or organization in one way or the other. The idea that The Mamba and Skiles will get along smoothly is pretty masturbatory, IMO. It's just a matter of how much it will affect the teams ability to function on the court.

It's easy to knock this team as the Cavs, Pacers, or Jazz of the 90's, but I think it's easy to take for granted that that's a _good_ situation to be in, and it shouldn't be treated wantonly. At the worst, it gives you the ability to tread water among the league's elite for a long time with the hope that one year the chips will fall your way and you can break through (like the Pistons in 2004). At best, it gives you the ability to jump on an asymmetrical acquisition that puts you over the top. And the longer you can stay at the top, have a deep talent base, and have a team with tradeable contracts, the better your chances are of that happening over the long run.

It's not just acquiring championship calibre talent, it's being able to do so in a way that doesn't require you to change your team too much.

The Pistons acquiring Sheed, the Lakers signing Shaq, the Spurs getting lucky and getting the 1st draft pick and landing Duncan, getting Kobe w/ the 13th pick, etc.

The fact that we've been in the running to acquire Gasol, Garnett, and Kobe speaks to the advantageous makeup of our team, and that shouldn't be given up lightly.


----------



## DaBullz

THEbigO said:


> the reason i feel it is somewhat credible is the guy works for espn during the college world series. he knows people. he works for espn and played baseball for the brewers so he has connections. anyways aside from trying to give him credibility here is the deal:
> 
> kobe for gordon, thomas, noah and a first round pick


Bulls need about $14.6M outbound to satisfy the CBA for Kobe's ~$19.5M salary.

Gordon makes $4.9M + Thomas makes $3.5M + Noah makes $1.8M = $10.2M or $4.4M short.


----------



## DengNabbit

*Bryant's motivations for wanting Chicago*

If a supermodel asks you out, you don't ask too many questions - you just go along with it.

Now, Kobe Bryant, for whatever reason, really wants to be a Bull. I'm guessing most of us are OK with this, if the deal is right.


Do you feel ill at ease about the way he wants to get here? and what his reasons are?


I mean, he apparently seems obsessed with being Jordan 2. He wants to play in a big city, which is understandable... and the Knicks aren't prepared to help him win at this point. 



Yet, the fact that he hasnt seemed to entertain Washington DC or Boston since this whole thing cropped up........ I dunno. There's something weird about his declaration of "Get yr Bulls jerseys, fellas." It's like redoing Jordan's history is a serious goal of his... and I kind of just want his goal to be helping this team win, if he comes here.


Anyone else ill at ease with this part of it?


----------



## Sith

jnrjr79 said:


> I am no cap-ologist, but I'd imagine that you could throw in PJ to make up for any financial deficiency.
> 
> Gordon makes sense. Thomas makes sense. It'd be sad IMO to see Noah go, only because it's been refreshing to have a guy around with a bit of personality. They're welcome to the pick. It's not going to be a high one.
> 
> Probably a trade you'd have to do or strongly consider.  The big X factor is whether Tyrus turns into something special.
> 
> 
> Kirk/Duhon/JamesOn
> Kobe/Thabo/Gardner
> Deng/Noc/Thabo/Khryapa/Griffin
> Smith/Noc
> Wallace/Gray
> 
> 
> The frontcourt would be thin and in need of both immediate and long-term attention. Juwan Howard suddenly looks like a solid pickup.
> 
> My guess is that team could compete for an NBA title (if Kobe plays team ball). Anyone else agree/disagree?


this is the best scenario for the bulls, a slightly not so good one for the Lakers. I do believe it will take one more piece than gorodn+tyrus. whether it's kirk, Noah or Noc. of course Noc makes the most sense for us, but would Lakers want gordon/noc/noah? i doubt it. at lesat for the point being. bottom line, if lakers only wanted those 3 players as the principle trading pieces, the trade should already be done. I personally would gladly do kirk/gordon/noah for kobe.
not so sure about kirk/gordon/tyrus.


----------



## DengNabbit

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



Mebarak said:


> In addition, I think as early as next year, Gordon will be a better player than Kobe. So its not even worth trading him for Kobe.


Kobe gets to the free throw line with regularity. Gordon does not. 

Kobe creates his own shot with ease, has myriad ways of shooting that HE can make into high percentage shots. Gordon? well, he has myriad ways of shooting... 


Kobe's ballhandling vs. what Gordon calls ballhandling. Gordon's passing has still never gotten right in this league.



I duno. You're comparing an all-time NBA great to a novelty scorer. Gordon has no NBA position, for godsakes.


----------



## BG7

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

People keep comparing us to the wrong Pistons team. We're like the 89-90 championship Pistons teams. Not like the 04-05 team.


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## THEbigO

like i said before...let say this one more time. i am admitting this is from a source that MIGHT NOT be credible. this is the first time this guy has given me any rumors or information. i dont want to turn this thread into a "the bulls got kobe thread" because this is STRICTLY SPECULATION at this point.

i apologize if this is completely wrong, i just wanted to share and get opinions. also, i am aware the salaries dont match.


----------



## vinsanity77

*Re: Bryant's motivations for wanting Chicago*

but, if was to act like Jordan v 2.0, 
doesn't that mean, winning will be part of his plan?
wouldn't that just mean 6 more championship for the Bulls? :biggrin:


----------



## BG7

PJ Brown can be resigned for slightly more than 9.5 million without becoming BYC. 

Also, Joakim Noah cannot be traded before December 15th.


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## Sith

dont worry about the salary part, as long as the principle players are agreed upon, there are always creative ways to make the salary match. i mean its' not like we are doing 1 for 1 deal for Kobe now. We are giving up multiple players who 
were former lottery picks. so their salary should actually be close to the MLE.


----------



## Sith

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



Mebarak said:


> People keep comparing us to the wrong Pistons team. We're like the 89-90 championship Pistons teams. Not like the 04-05 team.



only the 89-90 pistons team had 2 guys who could create their own shots with ease. the current bulls team have NONE. we rely on pick and roll and are basically a jumpshooting team.


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## jnrjr79

THEbigO said:


> like i said before...let say this one more time. i am admitting this is from a source that MIGHT NOT be credible. this is the first time this guy has given me any rumors or information. i dont want to turn this thread into a "the bulls got kobe thread" because this is STRICTLY SPECULATION at this point.
> 
> i apologize if this is completely wrong, i just wanted to share and get opinions. also, i am aware the salaries dont match.



Hey, it's cool. You've adequately warned us the info might not check out. It makes for interesting discussion and speculation if nothing else.


----------



## Sith

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

if kobe become a bull, I will buy at least 3 Kobe jerseys, one white, one red and the black one. and of course i will get 
a couple of new kobe posters in bulls uniform.


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## THEbigO

noah cant be traded until december 15th? does that go for all rookies?


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## DaBullz

THEbigO said:


> like i said before...let say this one more time. i am admitting this is from a source that MIGHT NOT be credible. this is the first time this guy has given me any rumors or information. i dont want to turn this thread into a "the bulls got kobe thread" because this is STRICTLY SPECULATION at this point.
> 
> i apologize if this is completely wrong, i just wanted to share and get opinions. also, i am aware the salaries dont match.


We're not saying this isn't the principle deal. Now we have a real good idea of how far the salaries don't match and what'd it would take in "filler" to make the deal work.

That Gray has been playing so much may be a "tell" - Bulls are looking at him to see if they can use him - and they'll need him.

This deal basically would leave us the same lineup as last year, but with Kobe upgrade over Gordon and Smith upgrade over PJ. Bulls would be minus Thomas, so they'd need to find a few minutes of PF/C time from somewhere.

Thabo, Duhon, Noc, and Gray would pretty much be the bench. Noc can play quite a few minutes at PF, but we'd be playing small-ball. Thabo can spell Deng at the 3 for eight minutes a game, no problem. Between Duhon and Thabo, the backup G position is pretty solid.

If PJ isn't part of the deal (we could sign & trade Sweets, no?), he might be a good guy to re-sign at this point, as insurance. Without one more guy who can play PF/C, we're one injury away from playing guards at the F positions.


----------



## Bulls96

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

Kobe definitely will increase our chances getting the championship, within next two years. 

Not trading for Kobe will increase our chances getting the championship within next five years.

I respect Kobe, but despite his age I am thinking that he got only a few good seasons left in his legs and I am not sure how Skiles will get what Phil failed to achieve. But I personally will take chances now and trade our young assets (BG, TT, First Round , filler) to get Kobe’s couple years of top performance.


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## THEbigO

if noah cant be traded i wonder if the lakers are so fed up they want gordon, tyrus, first round pick, and a pj brown sign & trade.

it would be really nice to keep one of tyrus and noah.


----------



## narek

Ben Wallace on all the trade:



> Lakers coach Phil Jackson, ever the sly individualist, went against the grain again Monday by publicly confirming to reporters in Los Angeles that his team was having trade talks with the Bulls surrounding Kobe Bryant.
> 
> The Bulls, who could try to involve a third team, aren't meeting the Lakers' price.
> 
> While calling him a "great player," Wallace offered an interesting take on the rumors.
> 
> "One player can't get it done," he said. "That's been proven time and time again in this league."


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...sbits,1,6514824.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines


----------



## Bulldozer

How about a 3 way deal...

L.A. needs a "superstar". Bulls don't have one. Agent 0 is an L.A. guy, 4 years younger than Kobe, who I think would be a perfect guy to "settle" for. What I suggest for after Dec 15:

Bulls acquire - Kobe Bryant
Lakers acquire - Gilbert Arenas, Joakim Noah
Wizards acquire - Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni, Bulls '08 1st

Lakers also get a future big man who's an ideal frontcourt partner for Bynum. I don't think they can ask for much more than Gil + Noah taking their situation under full consideration.

Gordon may be a notch below Arenas, but he's still a player on the rise and is a dynamic scorer himself. He'd have more freedom in Washington and will undoubtedly score more, not to mention he'd come much cheaper and is a year+ younger. Jamison and Butler are coming off of injuries, so what better player than Noc to play behind both those guys? Noc gives their lineup some more options/flexibility as well.

Hate to help the Wiz like this, but to get Kobe freakin Bryant...

Hinrich
Kobe
Deng
Thomas/Smith
Wallace/Gray

I'd be willing to take my chances :cheers:


----------



## BG7

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



Sith said:


> only the 89-90 pistons team had 2 guys who could create their own shots with ease. the current bulls team have NONE. we rely on pick and roll and are basically a jumpshooting team.


1990 Pistons

Isiah Thomas= 50.1 TS% (18.4 PPG)
Joe Dumars= 55.5 TS% (17.8 PPG)
Mark Agguire= 54.4 TS% (14.1 PPG)
Vinnie Johnson= 46.7 TS% (WTF!) (9.8 PPG)

1989 Pistons

Isiah Thomas= 52.8 TS% (18.2 PPG)
Joe Dumars= 57.1 TS% (17.2 PPG)
Vinnie Johnson= 50.8 TS% (15.5 PPG)
Mark Agguire= 55.1 TS% (13.8 PPG)

2007 Bulls

Ben Gordon= 57.2 TS% (21.4 PPG)
Luol Deng= 56.0 TS% (18.8 PPG)
Kirk Hinrich= 55.9 TS% (16.6 PPG)
Andres Nocioni= 57.8 TS% (14.1 PPG)

Regardless of how easy our perimeter guys get open...they still hit their shots at a greater efficiency across the board over the Pistons, and score more bulk even across the board. 

Its just a matter of our role playing big man to come through. But in terms of perimeter firepower, our group of guys is better than the championship Pistons teams. Its just up to Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, Tyrus Thomas, Aaron Gray to make the frontcourt competitive.


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## THEbigO

i dont think i can wait until december 15th for this to be settled. i am gettin absolutely no homework done right now because all i do is research bulls rumors. i hope this ends soon with kobe in chicago at a reasonable price.


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## theanimal23

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Anytime a coach mentions something like that, it has to make me wonder about all the possible scenarios of a deal happening (No Gordon extension yet, Kobe inactive for tomorrow, etc). I mean you don't hear all this from the player, the coach, and the owner saying how he is open to offers unless the possiblity of something going down is probable, right?


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## jnrjr79

DaBullz said:


> We're not saying this isn't the principle deal. Now we have a real good idea of how far the salaries don't match and what'd it would take in "filler" to make the deal work.
> 
> That Gray has been playing so much may be a "tell" - Bulls are looking at him to see if they can use him - and they'll need him.
> 
> This deal basically would leave us the same lineup as last year, but with Kobe upgrade over Gordon and Smith upgrade over PJ. Bulls would be minus Thomas, so they'd need to find a few minutes of PF/C time from somewhere.
> 
> Thabo, Duhon, Noc, and Gray would pretty much be the bench. Noc can play quite a few minutes at PF, but we'd be playing small-ball. Thabo can spell Deng at the 3 for eight minutes a game, no problem. Between Duhon and Thabo, the backup G position is pretty solid.
> 
> If PJ isn't part of the deal (we could sign & trade Sweets, no?), he might be a good guy to re-sign at this point, as insurance. Without one more guy who can play PF/C, we're one injury away from playing guards at the F positions.


Good thoughts. Your comments re: Gray from before only look more prescient now. Good thing Gray looked solid when they tried him out.

Playing with Noc at the 4 is small ball, but _dangerous_, spread-the-floor small ball and it would be fun to watch. 


I feel a little pained about this deal, but that probably means it's fair. If the principals were the same as outlined, but only Noah OR Thomas, I'd feel positively peachy about it (aside from my ambivalence about rooting for a guy who seems like such a jerk). Hoping for that though is likely unrealistic.


----------



## rosenthall

jnrjr79 said:


> I am no cap-ologist, but I'd imagine that you could throw in PJ to make up for any financial deficiency.
> 
> Gordon makes sense. Thomas makes sense. It'd be sad IMO to see Noah go, only because it's been refreshing to have a guy around with a bit of personality. They're welcome to the pick. It's not going to be a high one.
> 
> Probably a trade you'd have to do or strongly consider. The big X factor is whether Tyrus turns into something special.
> 
> 
> Kirk/Duhon/JamesOn
> Kobe/Thabo/Gardner
> Deng/Noc/Thabo/Khryapa/Griffin
> Smith/Noc
> Wallace/Gray
> 
> 
> The frontcourt would be thin and in need of both immediate and long-term attention. Juwan Howard suddenly looks like a solid pickup.
> 
> My guess is that team could compete for an NBA title (if Kobe plays team ball). Anyone else agree/disagree?


If we traded for Kobe, I would rather include Thomas than Noah.

Acquiring Kobe would satisfy our need for a superstar, which seems to be the reason most people value Tyrus Thomas right now. Kobe all by himself would bring enough egoism and capriciousness any team needs, so getting rid of one aloof brooder for another would make sense if we're worried about that being a problem, especially if the aloof brooder we're bringing in is the best player in basketball. 

I also think that Noah's hustle and genuine team first attitude would compliment the addition of Kobe Bryant very well, and his style of play would help balance out having a player who would have to have the ball in his hands the majority of the time. 

If at all possible, I'd like to try and keep Noc if we trade for Bryant. Again, the more die-hard team first guys we have on this team when Bryant is on it........the better. And with the loss of Ben Gordon's shooting, Noc's ability to hit open threes would become even more important.

I think people don't appreciate that Ben Gordon is one of the five best shooters in the league. There are only a few guys that hit outside shots with the volume and degree of difficulty that he does. He's right up there with Steve Nash and Ray Allen IMO, and it's the biggest way our team would have to adjust after he leavues, so keeping Noc would really help.

Would a trade of Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas, and Thabo as the principles work? That sure isn't much, but the dark side of Kobe scares me, especially given this teams floor.


----------



## theanimal23

T.Shock said:


> Just wanted to give everybody a heads up...
> 
> *Chris Sheridan was just on ESPNNews and basically said that Kobe wants to be a Bull and is only open to going to another team if every option with the Bulls has been exhausted. *
> 
> Sheridan said he believes that it is "less than 50/50" that a deal gets done before Opening Night, but "significantly greater than 50/50" that Kobe is dealt by the deadline.


Gordon, Duhon, Noce, Smith, and two 1sts if needed


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



Mebarak said:


> 1990 Pistons
> 
> Isiah Thomas= 50.1 TS% (18.4 PPG)
> Joe Dumars= 55.5 TS% (17.8 PPG)
> Mark Agguire= 54.4 TS% (14.1 PPG)
> Vinnie Johnson= 46.7 TS% (WTF!) (9.8 PPG)
> 
> 1989 Pistons
> 
> Isiah Thomas= 52.8 TS% (18.2 PPG)
> Joe Dumars= 57.1 TS% (17.2 PPG)
> Vinnie Johnson= 50.8 TS% (15.5 PPG)
> Mark Agguire= 55.1 TS% (13.8 PPG)
> 
> 2007 Bulls
> 
> Ben Gordon= 57.2 TS% (21.4 PPG)
> Luol Deng= 56.0 TS% (18.8 PPG)
> Kirk Hinrich= 55.9 TS% (16.6 PPG)
> Andres Nocioni= 57.8 TS% (14.1 PPG)
> 
> Regardless of how easy our perimeter guys get open...they still hit their shots at a greater efficiency across the board over the Pistons, and score more bulk even across the board.
> 
> Its just a matter of our role playing big man to come through. But in terms of perimeter firepower, our group of guys is better than the championship Pistons teams. Its just up to Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, Tyrus Thomas, Aaron Gray to make the frontcourt competitive.


You've neglected some very important information, namely that those two Pistons teams were dead-last and second-to-last in pace those two years, and 8th and 11th in offensive efficiency (2nd and 3rd in defense).

Aside from being guard-oriented, the current Bulls offense is mightily dissimilar to the Pistons. They lived in the half-court; the half-court is pretty much the last place in the world the Bulls' offense wants to be.


----------



## jnrjr79

theanimal23 said:


> Gordon, Duhon, Noce, Smith, and two 1sts if needed



Again, everyone suggesting Nocioni must remember such a deal cannot be made until December. If it's happening now, it's not happening with Noc.


----------



## BG7

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



ScottMay said:


> You've neglected some very important information, namely that those two Pistons teams were dead-last and second-to-last in pace those two years, and 8th and 11th in offensive efficiency (2nd and 3rd in defense).
> 
> Aside from being guard-oriented, the current Bulls offense is mightily dissimilar to the Pistons. They lived in the half-court; the half-court is pretty much the last place in the world the Bulls' offense wants to be.


The Bulls score the majority of their points in the halfcourt. In theory, we'd like to be a fastbreaking team, but we haven't had the decision makers or finishers to be truly effective on the break, making us have to score in the halfcourt.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



Mebarak said:


> In addition, I think as early as next year, Gordon will be a better player than Kobe. So its not even worth trading him for Kobe.


I agree with everything you said, except this part. That's just an asinine statement there. I'd say nore like 5 years at a minimum before Ben surpasses Kobe, and that's more because of a decline in Kobe's game at age 34 than Ben actually getting better.


----------



## theanimal23

jnrjr79 said:


> Again, everyone suggesting Nocioni must remember such a deal cannot be made until December. If it's happening now, it's not happening with Noc.


I know that. I meant December.

I don't see a foreseeable deal until December. I just don't.

Maybe if we do something along the lines of Gordon, Vik, Du (10 mil), plus Tyrus and Sefo for Kobe. I would think that works under the trade checker. Its awfully close. 

Would I do it? Probably, even though I hate losing Ty. But I hope we can find a backup PG.


----------



## Bulldozer

*Re: Bryant's motivations for wanting Chicago*

I really don't care what "tickles his fancy". Honestly, I love Kobe's drive and competitive attitude, actually willing to create such a challenge for himself. Let him be jealous or envious...whatever. He can change his jersey #s to 24 and 10 to "1up" MJ's 23 and 9 (olympic) for his cryptic lil symbolism...whatever. All Kobe has to do, is to win a title and maybe more for my Bulls, because anything less, I couldn't accept. No pseudo MJ allowed here. If Kobe wants to walk that fine line and blaspheme (in a b-ball sense, MJ is god), he better make it worth our while and come through for real.


----------



## BG7

I don't see why Paxson would force a trade. Why not let our guys go out there and see how they perform? If our team is 18-5 on December 15th, why make a trade?


----------



## chibul

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



Mebarak said:


> In addition, I think as early as next year, Gordon will be a better player than Kobe. So its not even worth trading him for Kobe.


WOW.

This is the most ridiculous post I've ever read on any message board ever.

Unreal. Gordon better than Bryant? Talk about the ultimate homer comment.


----------



## laso

*Re: Bryant's motivations for wanting Chicago*

This is going to make some of you scream, but I think he will actually fit well with the Bulls culture. One of the things he seemed never comfortable in LA was the off the court activities of his teammates. He was always qualified as remote, cold, not wanting to partake into the Shaq's kiddies clan. 

I think this is also one of the key drivers for him wanting to come here. Kobe is all about business on the court and will enjoy being surrounded with low key teammates who will be completely fine if he doesn't socialize off the court. I think he will be fine with the Pax and Skiles hard-nose philosophy.


----------



## spongyfungy

*Re: Bryant's motivations for wanting Chicago*

He's desperate to prove he can win a championship without Shaq and the Bulls are the most championship ready. He'll be all business here as his motivation is to win a championship and that's it.

I'm ready to live and die by Kobe's shots.


----------



## spongyfungy

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

I'm excited but a part of me still wants to see the young guys develop into a championship team.

but the ultimate goal is to win it all and Kobe is a proven player who can carry a team. I do not see any one person on this team who can do this right *now*


----------



## thebizkit69u

*Re: Bryant's motivations for wanting Chicago*

Why wouldn't he want to come to Chicago is a better question.


----------



## Simpleton

*Re: Bryant's motivations for wanting Chicago*

Three reasons:

1. We're one of the few teams who can give up a reasonable package to the Lakers while still maintaining a core that can compete for a championship.

2. All of our core players are defense-first, good teammate types and have an overall good jib, meaning they'd gladly defer to Bryant and do the dirty work.

3. His dream is to be MJ.


----------



## BeZerker2008

*Re: Bryant's motivations for wanting Chicago*

I think the pitch Skiles/Pax told him left a huge impression that they (Bulls) want to win and have in the past few years shown to want to win by getting pieces and atm are a stacked team. 

Bryant wants to win and coming to Chicago is the best case scenario for getting a Championship and committed to winning. I think that's what Kobe likes, and maybe he likes skiles coaching philosophy & is tired of phil's zen philosophy. 

I heard about Washington wanting in on the mix for a swap of arenas for kobe. While that may look good for both sides I don't see how kobe would want to go to that team, sure they have caron butler but their reserves are nowhere near what we have. 

Personally who knows why kobe wants here, hell we should all embrace it now as years ago nobody would want to touch with a 10 foot pole.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Bryant's motivations for wanting Chicago*

Kobe wants to be "the guy" on a championship winning team. Bulls are the only title contender without "the guy" already on the team. Kobe can probably go to Dallas or Phoenix and win a championship but he'll have to share the spotlight.


----------



## Eternal

Mebarak said:


> I don't see why Paxson would force a trade. Why not let our guys go out there and see how they perform? If our team is 18-5 on December 15th, why make a trade?


Because you could be a better team.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Bryant's motivations for wanting Chicago*



DengNabbit said:


> Yet, the fact that he hasnt seemed to entertain Washington DC or Boston since this whole thing cropped up........ I dunno. There's something weird about his declaration of "Get yr Bulls jerseys, fellas." It's like redoing Jordan's history is a serious goal of his... and I kind of just want his goal to be helping this team win, if he comes here.


I think following in MJs footsteps is the main reason he wants to come here.

He's got the ego to want to do that... and close to having the game. He’s the closest thing the current NBA has to a MJ.

While him wanting to do this turns some people off, I think its kind of weird/cool. 

Part of him would be nervous about Skiles I would think, but Kobe knows that he can have Skiles dispatched once he gets here. Paxson knows this as well I'm sure. 

Its a tough call for Paxson, b/c once he makes this trade, this team is all about Kobe, not Paxson and Skiles. A guy like Hinrich, who Paxson and Skiles have propped up as the icon, would be a dim flashlight to Kobe's superstar. They got away with announching Hinrich last after landing Ben Wallace, but that **** won't fly once the superstar of all superstars is in town. Kobe wouldn't have it any other way, and we better comply or else.

It will be interesting to see what happens. 

Paxson knows the right basketball move is to trade for Kobe, but he'll have to relinquish control.


----------



## GB

I wouldn't be that negative upfront K4.

I also wouldn't let a coach stand in the way of a ring. And I think Skiles knows that too.

He's grown since he's been here. I think he'd try to grow more...


----------



## theanimal23

I wouldn't want us to announce Hinrich last if we had Kobe either.


----------



## kukoc4ever

GB said:


> I wouldn't be that negative upfront K4.


Negative?!?! Not at all. He's our best shot at a NBA Championship. Its going to require some philosophical tweaks, but required philosophical tweaks.

The end goal is to win the NBA Championship, so this Kobe trade is a cause for celebration, not negativity.

Get it done Paxson! Yahoo!


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

Bulldozer said:


> How about a 3 way deal...
> 
> L.A. needs a "superstar". Bulls don't have one. Agent 0 is an L.A. guy, 4 years younger than Kobe, who I think would be a perfect guy to "settle" for. What I suggest for after Dec 15:
> 
> Bulls acquire - Kobe Bryant
> Lakers acquire - Gilbert Arenas, Joakim Noah
> Wizards acquire - Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni, Bulls '08 1st
> 
> Lakers also get a future big man who's an ideal frontcourt partner for Bynum. I don't think they can ask for much more than Gil + Noah taking their situation under full consideration.
> 
> Gordon may be a notch below Arenas, but he's still a player on the rise and is a dynamic scorer himself. He'd have more freedom in Washington and will undoubtedly score more, not to mention he'd come much cheaper and is a year+ younger. Jamison and Butler are coming off of injuries, so what better player than Noc to play behind both those guys? Noc gives their lineup some more options/flexibility as well.
> 
> Hate to help the Wiz like this, but to get Kobe freakin Bryant...
> 
> Hinrich
> Kobe
> Deng
> Thomas/Smith
> Wallace/Gray
> 
> I'd be willing to take my chances :cheers:


Substitute Noah for Thomas and id do it.:cheers:


----------



## GB

kukoc4ever said:


> Negative?!?! Not at all. He's our best shot at an NBA Championship. Its going to require some philosophical tweaks, but required philosophical tweaks.
> 
> The end goal is to win the NBA Championship, so this Kobe trade is a cause for celebration, not negativity.
> 
> Get it done Paxson! Yahoo!


About dumping the coach or GM.


----------



## truebluefan

kukoc4ever said:


> Negative?!?! Not at all. He's our best shot at an NBA Championship. Its going to require some philosophical tweaks, but required philosophical tweaks.
> 
> The end goal is to win the NBA Championship, so this Kobe trade is a cause for celebration, not negativity.
> 
> Get it done Paxson! Yahoo!


Completly agree.


----------



## DaBullz

FWIW, I think the best player the Bulls have had on the team since Pax took over was Pip. Even though he didn't play much, when he did, he was head and shoulders better than everyone else on the court. That was as a cripple, too.

Kobe is going to be like that for us, if a trade goes down. By far, head and shoulders better than anyone else on the court. Deng would make a nice running mate with him, Hinrich would be the best PG he ever played with, and Wallace is/was a player near Kobe's level.

Gordon is a VERY special player, and 5 years from now we'll be remembering how this great little guy was our scoring machine for three-plus years. Maybe the Lakers can rebuild by then and be a real contender so he gets a shot at the ring there. 

As I see it, the Bulls (Paxson) have all the leverage in this trade. If the Bulls pass on a trade, we're a better team than last year's 49 win team. If the Bulls pull the trigger, our expectations better be for finals and a real shot at the championship.

If you think about it, this whole saga parallels the Gordon/Deng contract talks. Pax suggests the players take below market value because it's a sure thing. Well, he's in the same boat - trade for Kobe and it's about as sure a thing as there is in the NBA.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

I voted no. In general, I'd rather see the current team play for a year, or at least a large fraction of the team. If there has to be a trade, my unhappiness will be proportional to the number of young Bulls included in the trade. I'd like to see the Bulls hold onto as many young players as they can, so my ideal trade would be Wallace and Gordon for Kobe, period. If LA wanted more, we could include Duhon (or Smith/Nocioni in December), and/or Khryapa. Any trade that included Noah, TT, Deng, or Hinrich would give me indigestion. 

If Kobe behaved as arrogantly in Chicago as he has in LA, I'd probably find something else to waste my time watching -- championship or no championship. The guy is a putz.


----------



## SausageKingofChicago

I wonder whether you could include PJ Brown in the deal . He basically doesn't report in ( he stays with his retirement intent ) and he has a partially non guaranteed deal 

Which means he gets paid some dough to "play ball" to make the trade work but then is cut after the guaranteed part of his re-executed contract is done 

If you could work PJ in on a deal such as this I would be prepared to deal :

*Ben, Tyrus, Thabo and a future 1st with PJ thrown in as ballast *

I would then look to bring in Juwan Howard to bolster the front court

That leaves :

*

Wallace
Smith
Deng
Bryant
Hinrich

bench

Gray/Noah
Howard
Nocioni
Gardner/Curry
Duhon 

*

That's a team that can win it all now and have a long and sustained window of title opportunity


----------



## SausageKingofChicago

And Sefolosha and Gordon make for a pretty balanced back court - particularly when you take into account the ball handling capabilities of Odom at forward 

Throw a developing Bynum and Tyrus Thomas into that mix and its an attractive starting 5 on paper with a bunch of athleticism and upside 

Add youngsters Farmar and Crittenton supported by Fisher and Evans backing up the guard spots ..plus with depth support upfront in Mihm and Brown and role players Cook and Walton....and the Lakers may end up being better /more successful than the their team as is presently constituted


----------



## BeZerker2008

*Re: Bryant's motivations for wanting Chicago*



kukoc4ever said:


> I think following in MJs footsteps is the main reason he wants to come here.
> 
> He's got the ego to want to do that... and close to having the game. He’s the closest thing the current NBA has to a MJ.
> 
> While him wanting to do this turns some people off, I think its kind of weird/cool.
> 
> Part of him would be nervous about Skiles I would think, but Kobe knows that he can have Skiles dispatched once he gets here. Paxson knows this as well I'm sure.
> 
> Its a tough call for Paxson, b/c once he makes this trade, this team is all about Kobe, not Paxson and Skiles. A guy like Hinrich, who Paxson and Skiles have propped up as the icon, would be a dim flashlight to Kobe's superstar. They got away with announching Hinrich last after landing Ben Wallace, but that **** won't fly once the superstar of all superstars is in town. Kobe wouldn't have it any other way, and we better comply or else.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what happens.
> 
> Paxson knows the right basketball move is to trade for Kobe, but he'll have to relinquish control.



I don't know if that would be true, people were thinking about that with Wallace when he came but aside from the headband incident which was handled during the off season and allowed Big Ben to wear it this season, I think if Kobe comes here Pax/Skiles are going to have to show Kobe who's boss just like they did with Wallace. 

If that means benching him for not doing things right/for the team they'll do it. But I'm sure Pax/Skiles explained to Kobe how things work here when they were wooing him during his free agency. If Kobe didn't like how things were run I'm sure he wouldn't be picking the Bulls as the team he wants to be traded to. 

I just hope Pax can land a reasonable trade for him and not blow it by forcing him to take a trade to let say Washington. I hope he plays his cards right, the only thing that worries me though is that if Kobe's that disgruntled right now and it's not even the regular season yet & Pax wants to wait to December, that time frame might make kobe anxious and take any trade just to get him out of LA.


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

No. I love wining but not at any cost. I do not want my happiness to be in even the smallest degree dependent on the success of such an a-hole as Bryant and I also don't want be put in the hypocritical position of having to root for someone I have despised for years.


----------



## Philomath

If we included a PJ Brown just to make salaries work, how much of his salary could we pay for LA a la Antoine Walker? I have always thought that Bulls ownership would shell out for a real superstar - in fact I think they showed that by paying Jordan 30 million when they really didn't have to do that. So a S&T and then paying the salary for them is really a pitch Paxson could make to management, I think, even if it (gasp) puts us over the luxury tax for a year. Also, it makes us look good to others around the league - look what the Bulls do for their over-the-hill guys.

Also - just because it's fun to think about, and because rosenthall and jnrjr brought it up - who would you rather keep to team with Kobe in a December trade, Noah or Tyrus? In my very humble opinion Tyrus has more raw talent than Noah, and is much more similar to Kobe's temperament - big ego, pri-ckly (darn cursing mask), serious on the court. He's also got a year's NBA experience on Noah, and he was a higher pick. Noah is a wackjob and a rookie, but is also older, cheaper for longer, looser in the clubhouse apparently, better passer, better defender of bigs, better ballhandler, better bball IQ. On the court, I think Noah's game might fit better with Kobe's, but all told, I just have a hunch Tyrus might work out better in the end. I think I go with him by a nose.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

McBulls and TripleDouble, +1


----------



## The ROY

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



rosenthall said:


> However, I think it's inevitable that Kobe will clash with the team or organization in one way or the other. The idea that The Mamba and Skiles will get along smoothly is pretty masturbatory, IMO. It's just a matter of how much it will affect the teams ability to function on the court.


And when this happens, we'll all realize that Skiles wasn't good enough to win a ring anyway and bring in MY PERSONAL favorite coach, Rick Carlisle (sp).

People creating this 'Kobe's a problem child' image need to get a clue, no offense to you or anything, just speaking in general.


----------



## Eternal

THEbigO said:


> the reason i feel it is somewhat credible is the guy works for espn during the college world series. he knows people. he works for espn and played baseball for the brewers so he has connections. anyways aside from trying to give him credibility here is the deal:
> 
> kobe for gordon, thomas, noah and a first round pick


You could have something there. If PJ Brown isn't included in a deal you could still do something like this:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...~3032~110&teams=13~13~13~13~13~13~4&te=&cash=

Not sure though if the Bulls would be willing to gut their bench out like that though.

The Bulls though would still have a core of Hinrich, Kobe, Deng, Nocioni, and Wallace.


----------



## The ROY

Pax brought Ben Wallace here to win a ring. Personally, with this team, I'm not seeing a championship in the next 2 seasons but Kobe definintely raises that possibility.

This deal will get done. May have been his plan all along.


----------



## DaBabyBullz

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*

Comeon The ROY. The lowlife forced them to trade Shaq, and then a few years later he decides his team isn't good enough to win (GEE, WONDER WHY?!) and demands a trade. Way to stay loyal and repay your team buddy! The guy is a problem child, if you want to put it that mildly.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: Are you excited about the idea of Kobe Bryant being a Bull?*



The ROY said:


> And when this happens, we'll all realize that Skiles wasn't good enough to win a ring anyway and bring in MY PERSONAL favorite coach, Rick Carlisle (sp).
> 
> People creating this 'Kobe's a problem child' image need to get a clue, no offense to you or anything, just speaking in general.


Well, he did have a huge fall out with Phil Jackson didn't he? IIRC, Phil almost quit the job because he thought Kobe was uncoachable and couldn't bear the idea of working with him any longer. And his feud with Shaq sure seemed to be real. And he's making public demands for a trade, and it looks like he's "Cartering" to try and make that happen. It's not like the guy hasn't had serious issues with key people that he's worked with.

And if you're concerned about Skiles' ability to handle a team with Kobe on it, replacing him with Rick Carlisle strikes me as rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. Both seem like guys that demand control over their teams, and are pretty big on making sure they get what they want. I don't see how he'd be a big improvement over Skiles in that area. In fact, he may be one of the only guys in the league who'd be worse.


----------



## Fred

On my way to work this morning they were talking on the Score. The reporter was saying a deal could get done as early as today if it did actually happen. He said from what he's heard Deng would NOT be involved in the deal. And it would most likely be Gordon, Noah, and Thomas as the main guys. He said there are two untouchable guys and thats the captains Hinrich and Deng. Should be interesting to see how this all plays out. If they can somehow keep Deng and Hinrich I would definitely be open to the idea of Kobe coming. The only problem I see with that trade is noah and thomas are both gone, so there goes your height up front.


----------



## MikeDC

After playing around a bit, I think something like this would have to happen:
Bulls trade: Gordon, Thomas, Noah, Duhon, Griffin, Khyrapa
Lakers trade: Kobe, Jordan Farmar, Ronny Turiaf
(That works in the ESPN Trade Machine)

The Lakers would still need to waive 3 players (my guess would be Koby Karl, Griffin and Khyrapa) to make room. I don't know what the rules are regarding that. Can they actually take back all those guys in trade and then waive the ones they want to waive?


----------



## GB

Fred said:


> He said from what he's heard Deng would NOT be involved in the deal.


Nice to hear the reporters read the newspapers and the Internet too.


----------



## jnrjr79

Fred said:


> On my way to work this morning they were talking on the Score. The reporter was saying a deal could get done as early as today if it did actually happen. He said from what he's heard Deng would NOT be involved in the deal. And it would most likely be Gordon, Noah, and Thomas as the main guys. He said there are two untouchable guys and thats the captains Hinrich and Deng. Should be interesting to see how this all plays out. If they can somehow keep Deng and Hinrich I would definitely be open to the idea of Kobe coming. The only problem I see with that trade is noah and thomas are both gone, so there goes your height up front.


I'd like to keep Hinrich, because I think he'd be great with Kobe, but deeming him "untouchable" in a trade for Kobe is a little nuts.


----------



## jnrjr79

*Who would you keep in a Kobe trade: Noah or Thomas?*

Now this all may be moot, as rumors lately have both players going in a deal for Kobe. However, if you had to hang on to one and move the other, which would you prefer to keep, and why?

For me, I think Noah is more of a sure thing. He is a rookie and doesn't have the upside of Thomas, but you know he is athletic, ready to work, and smart. Thomas is more of a gamble. His upside is higher, but mentally he doesn't seem to have put it together yet.

Honestly, it's a toss up for me. The tiebreaker might go to Noah just because he's bigger and that is harder to replace. Also, he adds a personality to the team that I enjoy. But honestly, notwithstanding all that, I think the better move may be to hold on to Thomas. With Kobe you'd have to be sending significant young talent to L.A., and I think you try to keep the young freakish athlete and hope that he is coming into his prime as Kobe enters his mid-30s decline.

It's a tough call. Thoughts?


----------



## ballafromthenorth

*Re: Who would you keep in a Kobe trade: Noah or Thomas?*

I hated him in college, but Noah seems like a good fit for us... I love Tyrus but I'd imagine he's gone with any deal for Bryant.


----------



## PD

*Re: Who would you keep in a Kobe trade: Noah or Thomas?*

With Ben Wallace on this team for the next 3 years, I would take the risk and go with Thomas. Plus, we haven't seen Noah yet. Guys like Nene will be available in 3 years...so THOMAS FOR SURE.


----------



## McBulls

Fred said:


> On my way to work this morning they were talking on the Score. The reporter was saying a deal could get done as early as today if it did actually happen. He said from what he's heard Deng would NOT be involved in the deal. And it would most likely be Gordon, Noah, and Thomas as the main guys. He said there are two untouchable guys and thats the captains Hinrich and Deng. Should be interesting to see how this all plays out. If they can somehow keep Deng and Hinrich I would definitely be open to the idea of Kobe coming. The only problem I see with that trade is noah and thomas are both gone, so there goes your height up front.


Salaries don't match on that trade -- guess it would be an early Christmas for PJ Brown and Sweetney.

Not to mention that this trade would be a disaster that would make Bulls fans forget about Jalen Rose.

Bulls front line goes from fragile to pathetic in three years :
2007-8 Wallace, Smith, Nocioni, Khryapa, Gray, Khryapa
2010-11 Nocioni, Khryapa, Gray, MLE,(*2 lux tax) MLE (*2 lux tax), 2009 pick

All in all, LA comes out way ahead in this trade with a young, deep backcourt unmatched by anyone other than perhaps Portland. Plus they'll have a first class, young shooting guard to replace Kobe. Should be enough to keep them in contention for a decade. Throw in Duhon and LA will be a better team than the Bulls right away.


----------



## The ROY

Now, I for one am all for the Kobe deal and I'll be damned if I like any player on our team TOO much not to trade for him BUT I'd hate the thought of moving TT. Out of all the prospects we've had in recent memory, he IMO has the most potential upside of any of them. He still has ALOT of work to do but this is basically his 6th year of organized B-Ball in his life, it'll CLICK one day.

Losing both Noah & TT isn't a deal I'd consider personally.


----------



## 7thwatch

If there is indeed a trade in the works, and the principles are Gordon, Thomas, and Noah . . . I'll be pretty happy. Can't help but be excited at the possibility of having Kirk, Kobe, Deng, Smith, Wallace lineup. It would hurt to give up both of our young prospects on the frontline, but its Kobe, the best player in the game IMO. He would be great defensively next to Kirk, and more importantly I think Deng is an ideal second star - someone who does not require the ball in his hands to score an efficient 20ppg. This may hurt us after 2 or three years as the frontline shows its age, but by that time perhaps we will be able to move Wallace's large expiring contract for some younger help up front.

Best of all, we would have a very good chance at bringing home the trophy this season or next.


----------



## GB

I can see this ending badly.

1. We don't get Kobe
2. The Bulls start slowly or have a really bad patch during the season


----------



## Fred

GB said:


> Nice to hear the reporters read the newspapers and the Internet too.


like Peter King.


----------



## dsouljah9

I don't like the idea of giving up BOTH Noah and Thomas in any deal with L.A. I could live with giving up one of them, but not both.


----------



## Rhyder

MikeDC said:


> After playing around a bit, I think something like this would have to happen:
> Bulls trade: Gordon, Thomas, Noah, Duhon, Griffin, Khyrapa
> Lakers trade: Kobe, Jordan Farmar, Ronny Turiaf
> (That works in the ESPN Trade Machine)
> 
> The Lakers would still need to waive 3 players (my guess would be Koby Karl, Griffin and Khyrapa) to make room. I don't know what the rules are regarding that. Can they actually take back all those guys in trade and then waive the ones they want to waive?


I'm not sure about the waiving rules, but if the Kobe for Gordon, Tyrus, and Noah as principles are true.

Duhon would almost have to be included to make salaries closer, so Farmar back to us makes sense to fill our void at backup PG. We would have to add Viktor and Griffin both as filler (adding less does not work). In adding both as filler, we could take back Turiaf as a depth replacement for one of our exiting bigs.

Basically, the only trade that works and makes sense is the one you listed. I was trying to find a way to add Sasha or Cook instead & couldn't come up with anything without adding even more players from our side.

We could, however, take on the draft rights to Sun Yue or Marc Gasol. Gasol might be a help considering we would be so thin up front. I haven't been following either of their situations. I'm assuming both aren't playing in the NBA this season?


----------



## LoyalBull

Listening to the radio this morning in LA.


Says a big issue is Kobe's reps wouldn't want to waive the 15% trade kicker and are asking for a max extension that would take him to 29 million through the age of 34.


Too big of a pill to swallow for 34 year old legs that have 40 year milage?


----------



## MikeDC

I tried for quite a while and couldn't make a deal with Sasha or Cook worth either.

The only variations I found that might make sense are:
1. You can add Thabo and take out Noah. I'd push pretty hard for this. I think Noah's a whole lot more valuable, long-term, than Thabo. We're soft behind Kobe without Thabo, but we could always move Kirk over to the two and start Farmar in a kobe-less pinch. Or Deng at the 2 and Noc at the 3. 

2. If Noah is going out, then if it made or broke the deal we could take back Maurice Evans or Sasha Vujacic instead of Farmar. I'm not all that high on Farmar, but I'm not that high on those other guys either, so that's kind of a push.


----------



## MikeDC

LoyalBull said:


> Listening to the radio this morning in LA.
> 
> Says a big issue is Kobe's reps wouldn't want to waive the 15% trade kicker and are asking for a max extension that would take him to 29 million through the age of 34.
> 
> Too big of a pill to swallow for 34 year old legs that have 40 year milage?


Kobe's all about winning though! If he's all about winning, won't he play for the Vet minimum?

I'll be a little surprised if Reinsdorf doesn't torpedo that.


----------



## ScottMay

MikeDC said:


> Kobe's all about winning though! If he's all about winning, won't he play for the Vet minimum?
> 
> I'll be a little surprised if Reinsdorf doesn't torpedo that.


It gives Paxdorf a convenient out, imo.

"We just felt we couldn't part with so many great young players and commit our entire financial future to just one player with a lot of mileage on the treads."

Or something along those lines.


----------



## MikeDC

ScottMay said:


> It gives Paxdorf a convenient out, imo.
> 
> "We just felt we couldn't part with so many great young players and commit our entire financial future to just one player with a lot of mileage on the treads."
> 
> Or something along those lines.


In this case, I'm not all that sure he's wrong though. For all the talk about Kobe's work ethic, he's never looked like he was the iron man MJ was. He's always been more of a jump shooter than MJ but most importantly he's already had a couple of fairly serious injuries. 

If I had to establish some level of risks, the risk of Reinsdorf regretting paying a four year deal to Kobe is a lot higher than the risk he had of regretting paying MJ $33M for a single year. Which he famously thought he would regret.


----------



## GB

LoyalBull said:


> Listening to the radio this morning in LA.
> 
> 
> Says a big issue is Kobe's reps wouldn't want to waive the 15% trade kicker and are asking for a max extension that would take him to 29 million through the age of 34.
> 
> 
> Too big of a pill to swallow for 34 year old legs that have 40 year milage?


If negotiations have reached that point, I'd wager the two teams have reached a deal in principle.


----------



## GB

MikeDC said:


> Kobe's all about winning though! If he's all about winning, won't he play for the Vet minimum?
> 
> I'll be a little surprised if Reinsdorf doesn't torpedo that.


Why should he have to? 


The money talks will be out of Paxsons hands. That decision will be 100% Reinsdorf.


----------



## GB

ScottMay said:


> It gives Paxdorf a convenient out, imo.


Pax might be the one to say it, but it will be all Reinsdorf. Pax isn't worried about the financial shape of the organization. He just wants to put a winner on the floor.


----------



## theanimal23

Any more info/truth behind the rumor of BG, Ty, and Jo for Kobe? The guy with the connections posted that trade info.


----------



## McBulls

If the Bulls are including both Noah and Thomas in the trade, they must know something about the two of them that we don't. At the least, Paxson must have concluded from their preseason performances that neither was a long-term starter in the front court. Or, less likely, that Gray is the future center of the team. 

From LA's point of view, why would they want Noah and Thomas as well as the other bigs they currently have? They'd be overstocked on the front line -- good trading bait I guess.

All in all, I find the rumor rather strange and unlikely.


----------



## narek

theanimal23 said:


> Any more info/truth behind the rumor of BG, Ty, and Jo for Kobe? The guy with the connections posted that trade info.


David Schuster on the score(or is it Shuster?) said they haven't agreed on players. And doesn't know if they will anytime soon. In other words, there may be a deal tomorrow, next week, next month, or never.

The main score page now has interviews with KC and Deng up from this morning. Deng was with Mike North. I haven't listened to either one - http://www.670thescore.com.


----------



## The ROY

theanimal23 said:


> Any more info/truth behind the rumor of BG, Ty, and Jo for Kobe? The guy with the connections posted that trade info.


Hopefully we won't hear that one again.

I don't think we can afford to trade both of them, even if it is for Kobe.


----------



## The ROY

> Ric Bucher is on ESPN. Said that the Bulls and Mavs are both trying to get a third team involved to make a trade. Says that at one point Chicago was trying to get Phoenix and Marion involved in the deal but his 'sources' in Phoenix say that fel through.





> Bucher was just saying nothing is imminent. the bulls are trying the get a third party involved in order to satisfy the lakers. he mentioned the suns with marion but that didnt work out.


Couple of real gm posters...


----------



## DengNabbit

The ROY said:


> Hopefully we won't hear that one again.
> 
> I don't think we can afford to trade both of them, even if it is for Kobe.



Both of Noah and TT? I mean, it depletes our bench depth, but how much was Noah really going to play this year anyway?

You go with Joe Smith, Noc, Gray and a FA pickup to bolster rebounding and defense. but even that FA isnt going to get much into the rotation


----------



## The ROY

DengNabbit said:


> Both of Noah and TT? I mean, it depletes our bench depth, but how much was Noah really going to play this year anyway?
> 
> You go with Joe Smith, Noc, Gray and a FA pickup to bolster rebounding and defense. but even that FA isnt going to get much into the rotation


This year isn't much of a big deal but the future of our frontline is.

I'm sure Paxson MAY think that one of these guys are expendable with the potential of Aaron Gray as our future C though.


----------



## DengNabbit

The ROY said:


> This year isn't much of a big deal but the future of our frontline is.
> 
> I'm sure Paxson MAY think that one of these guys are expendable with the potential of Aaron Gray as our future C though.



no rule against using a future midlevel exception to bring in a big man three yrs from now. i'm all for shoring up the top four players on the team, at whichever positions, and filling in the rest as becomes available.

if Noah doesnt pan out, then you end up doing that anyway. 

i dont know, i'm just not a believer that we have to absolutely have the heir apparent to Smith/Noc on the roster right now. yeah, it's nice; but not if it costs you a deal THAT lopsided for Kobe Bryant.


----------



## LoyalBull

3 way deal: Bulls-Lakers- Wiz


Lakers trade: Kobe (without the trade kicker)

Lakers recieve: Gilbert Arenas, Hinrich (yes, factoring in BYC) and a (signed and traded Brown at the 2,031,889 that it would take to compensate for the BYC within the 25%)

Lineup:

C. Bynum
Pf. Odom
Sf. Walton
Sg. Arenas
Pg. Hinrich

Why: Gets DECENT value for a disgruntled superstar by putting a young (and established) backcourt in place to go with "future superstar" Bynum. Additionally, it gives the Lakers a number of pieces to deal.

The team above is already better than a lakers team with a dis-enfranchised Bryant and will only get better.

Wizards trade: Arenas

Wizards recieve: Ben Gordon and Tyrus Thomas

C. Jamison (I know, I know)
Pf. Thomas
Sf. Butler
Sg. Gordon
Pg. Daniels

Whys: Arenas (or so the theroy goes) may be looking to move on. Getting two lotto type players (an established 20 PPG scorer and a young defensive big) may be getting a fairly good return if Arenas has (indeed) indicated he would like to be elsewhere.


Bulls Trade: Ty Thomas, Gordon, Hinrich, signed and traded PJ Brown

Bulls Recieve: Kobe Bryant.

Line up:

C.) Wallace
Pf.) Noah
Sf. Deng
Sg.) kobe
Pg.) Duhon

With nocionni and sofo, smith and gray still coming off the bench.

Whys: Bulls deal their current back court and one of the young bigs for the best two way player in the game and with a supporting (defensive minded, no nonsense cast) gives the bulls a odds on favorite chance of coming out of the east.


----------



## truebluefan

Dave Aldridge just mentioned that the only real way the Bulls could get a deal done now is resign PJ Brown for about 8 mill for one year then present the package. 

Magic said the sticking point now besides the salaries is Deng. He said Bulls do not want to include their "best player" and LA would insist on that. 

He also said Fans would demand a star back! Well good luck Magic...


----------



## Philomath

Wonder if this is the real reason PJ hasn't either retired already, or signed with the apparent multiple interested parties. The season starts tonight and he's just sitting around... hmm.


----------



## T.Shock

In my mind, if the Bulls are so reluctant to give up Deng, and the Lakers are so insistent that they get Deng back in any deal, doesn't this mean that Deng is one good mofo. I still say that you can't deal Deng to get Kobe largely because a 1-2 Kobe-Deng punch is mouthwatering regardless of who is playing the point. I also believe that if Kobe comes to Chicago either Hinrich or Big Ben has to go because paying Hinrich, Wallace, Kobe, and Deng 10+ mil a year would be tough. Oh and you can't trade both Noah and Tyrus. I'd say either Hinrich, Gordon, Tyrus or Noah, filler for Kobe and Vujacic is a fair deal.


----------



## truebluefan

is it me,, or does Magic give you the sense that the Bulls wont have anything left after the trade?

He said Kobe will be in the same position he is now. I dissagree. Yeah IF he gets Gordon, Deng, and both young big men but that's not going to happen. Kobe can say no to that.


----------



## RageofDaBulls

all three parties need to sit down and get a deal knocked out in the next few days or shut up and move on..

Pax: needs to stop trying to low ball the hell out of everyone.just getting kobe is a victory.

LA: needs to get it thur their thick head this isn't going away,and see the onlything they have going for them is that they can hold onto kobe for 2 seasons.but kobe can counter that by just not playing well or come up hurt alot..

Kobe: needs to finish what he started.push hard for a trade in the media,stop saying all the PC things to try and save face.make it look worse on the lakers if they wait around.

i dont know much about how the cap works,so view this as more of an outline then a ready made deal.

Ben Gordon $4,881,669
Chris Duhon $3,248,000
Joakim Noah $2,135,400
Thabo Sefolosha $1,805,160
PJ Brown $7.500.000 1yr NG 1m-3m buyout
2 unprotected 1st's
2 2nds
1.5m-4m cash to pay for pj and maybe sweets buyout's

if they want Andres then we take out noah and maybe a 1st add in Michael Sweetney at something like $3.000.000 1yr NG 500k-1m buyout,then on dec 15th move Andres for Brian Cook.

bulls side 19.570229

Kobe Bryant $19,490,625
Sasha Vujacic $1,756,951
Coby Karl $427,163

Lakers side 21.674639


----------



## BULLHITTER

> Pax: needs to stop trying to low ball the hell out of everyone.just getting kobe is a victory.


quite ridiculous; only a sucker pays sticker price for luxury; and that's what kobe is. whether or not the bulls can win the championship without him is irrelevant. they stand to be better than the lakers without him, and all parties know this,unspoken or not. if i'm paxson i negotiate, bull****, cajole and do whatever it takes to give the least for as long as possible. the longer paxson waits, the better the terms will be for the bulls. 

since it's obvious the lakers want the moon in the seventh house, and they can find someone else let them weaken another contender and hope bryant can carry them. point is, the bulls don't want bryant to *carry* their team; they want bryant as the "over the top piece", which in my mind is the only reason to acquire him since they have most everything else. 

but not if they consider his acquisition just as a "victory"; it's not. it's *the move *to bring the team a championship.


----------



## RageofDaBulls

BULLHITTER said:


> quite ridiculous; only a sucker pays sticker price for luxury; and that's what kobe is. whether or not the bulls can win the championship without him is irrelevant. they stand to be better than the lakers without him, and all parties know this,unspoken or not. if i'm paxson i negotiate, bull****, cajole and do whatever it takes to give the least for as long as possible. the longer paxson waits, the better the terms will be for the bulls.
> 
> since it's obvious the lakers want the moon in the seventh house, and they can find someone else let them weaken another contender and hope bryant can carry them. point is, the bulls don't want bryant to *carry* their team; they want bryant as the "over the top piece", which in my mind is the only reason to acquire him since they have most everything else.
> 
> but not if they consider his acquisition just as a "victory"; it's not. it's *the move *to bring the team a championship.



only a sucker would beleave that everyone else are suckers and allow them selfs to be low balled..sometimes you can get away with it,but most of the time you have to just pony up and pay the asking price..

theres a diff between lowballing and asking for a good deal,and so far all pax does is low ball..


----------



## chifaninca

Kobe is simply an amazing basketball player. Kobe single handedly kept the game in the Lakers reach until the buzzer sounded.

One other major thing I noticed, is that KOBE gets a lot of generous foul calls. Something that we could use alot more of.

I am interested in hearing about his wrist injury is. He looked in pain more than a few times. Of course, just being ont he lakers is painful these days.


----------



## truebluefan

Magic said something has to be done,within a week or two to address the Kobe situation. He said either trade him or say no. One way or the other, the distraction is getting to Kobe and the players.


----------



## Fred

RageofDaBulls said:


> only a sucker would beleave that everyone else are suckers and allow them selfs to be low balled..sometimes you can get away with it,but most of the time you have to just pony up and pay the asking price..
> 
> theres a diff between lowballing and asking for a good deal,and so far all pax does is low ball..


not pax's fault isiah is an idiot lol. too bad more GMs aren't like him. also why do people keep adding PJ Brown and Mike Sweetney? They aren't even on the team. why would they sign to be traded?


----------



## GB

Mariotti says that Kobe is vetoing any deal with Deng in it and both teams know it.


----------



## Fred

GB said:


> Mariotti says that Kobe is vetoing any deal with Deng in it and both teams know it.


good for him. he has the most leverage in this situation.


----------



## GB

Fred said:


> good for him. he has the most leverage in this situation.


Actually, it gives the Lakers the upper hand in keeping him in LA.


----------



## chifaninca

Kobe's not going anywhere until Dec. 15th.

Lamar Odom is out and won't be back for a few weeks.

With Kobe, the Lakers get a few wins they don't deserve. Without him, it's armageddon and fans will melt down. 

Also, the fans who bought Season tickets won't get to demand their money back, Since Kobe will have played 45 days of the season in a Lakers uni.


----------



## Hustle

On sportscenter today Rick Bucher said that all parties with in the Laker organization are finally in consensus that they should trade Kobe.


----------



## BULLHITTER

> only a sucker would beleave that everyone else are suckers and allow them selfs to be low balled..sometimes you can get away with it,but most of the time you have to just pony up and pay the asking price..
> 
> theres a diff between lowballing and asking for a good deal,and so far all pax does is low ball..


all the fans know is that he doesn't want to include deng, and i don't blame him. he's trying to put the team over the top, not build another team around kobe. it's ridiculous to think that because they want to shove it up pax's rear, he should just bend over and take it greaseless. kobe's also indicated he doesn't want to play for a "gutted" team [sic]; so there it is......is that really lowballing?

in my mind no; but if it is in yours, then i've something bright and shiny to show you......:biggrin:


----------



## McBulls

The Lakers have a pretty rough schedule coming up, and are likely to start the season on a losing streak. If there is any sentiment left for keeping Kobe, that would kill it.


----------



## BG7

Fred said:


> not pax's fault isiah is an idiot lol. too bad more GMs aren't like him. also why do people keep adding PJ Brown and Mike Sweetney? They aren't even on the team. why would they sign to be traded?


Its the best way to clear the salary gap. Michael Sweetney would definitely do it, 4 million or so, and another chance at the NBA. PJ Brown, 9 1/2 million for doing nothing.

Brown is more valuable here, as he can go up to 9.5 million without being BYC, I think Sweetney can only go up to about 4 million before he becomes BYC. 

Still doubt anything will happen. Noah, Nocioni, Smith, all can't be traded until December 15th. Same will be true for Gordon/Deng if they sign their extensions. 

In addition, why rush a trade? Kobe's value will only deteriorate over time as he gets more pissed off. Also, it gives Paxson time to evaluate how good our guys will do this year.


----------



## MikeDC

Hustle said:


> On sportscenter today Mitch Kupchek said that all parties with in the Laker organization are finally in consensus that they should trade Kobe.


Wow, that'd make it a pretty sure thing, I think.


----------



## GB

MikeDC said:


> Wow, that'd make it a pretty sure thing, I think.


Not unless they had also reached the consensus that they didn't need Luol Deng.


Question: Is Kobe + Deng better than Kobe + Odom?

Is Deng > Odom?


----------



## GB

> I decided to re-watch the entire fourth quarter and take notes, paying special attention to how Bryant used his teammates.
> 
> Let it be known that Bryant played the entire fourth quarter. On almost every play, the ball got into Kobe's hands with him creating offense for himself. Here are the exceptions:
> 
> * Three times the Lakers were in transition.
> * Four times a half-court offense was run entirely without Bryant touching the ball. Two of those times were missed jumpers. Of the other two, one was a pick and roll with Derek Fisher that got Ronny Turiaf a dunk, the other was Turiaf getting fouled while posting up.
> * Seven times Kobe passed the ball, got it back and made a move.
> * Five times Kobe passed the ball, and didn't get it back.
> 
> To try to get an idea of how Kobe's seeing his teammates, let's examine how these passes turned out.
> 
> * Five passes to Luke Walton. Four times it comes back to Bryant, one time Walton gets fouled.
> * Two passes to Jordan Farmar, leading to two missed jumpers by other players.
> * Twice to Ronny Turiaf. One time it comes back, the other time it's a missed jumper.
> * Once to Maurice Evans, who passes it right back.
> * Once time to Andrew Bynum, who passes it back.
> * Once to Derek Fisher for the game-tying basket.
> 
> After considering how productive Bryant was on his own, and how little came out of his passes, one could make the argument that in his head, most of his teammates were not worth passing to with the game on the line.


It wouldn't be that way in Chicago.


----------



## MikeDC

GB said:


> Not unless they had also reached the consensus that they didn't need Luol Deng.
> 
> 
> Question: Is Kobe + Deng better than Kobe + Odom?
> 
> Is Deng > Odom?


The fact that this is a question worth considering makes me like the prospect of a Kobe/Deng led team not quite as good as I did before.

Odom really tough for me to figure. In terms of pure talent the guy is a terrific player. He also doesn't seem to be a bad guy, and these days he's a pretty hard worker from all I can tell. But he's often hurt and his history isn't exactly filled with success.


----------



## GB

MikeDC said:


> The fact that this is a question worth considering makes me like the prospect of a Kobe/Deng led team not quite as good as I did before.
> 
> Odom really tough for me to figure. In terms of pure talent the guy is a terrific player. He also doesn't seem to be a bad guy, and these days he's a pretty hard worker from all I can tell. But he's often hurt and his history isn't exactly filled with success.



The last two seasons he's averaged 14 to 16 points, 9 rebounds and 5 assists a game.


Why can't these two be the core of LA's team?


In that time period, Deng has done 14 and 19 points, but only 7 rebounds and 2 assists. Unless Kobe thinks Deng's ceiling is sky-high, how much is he gaining by playing with Deng? Why not try to make Odom better with his play?


----------



## Rhyder

GB said:


> Not unless they had also reached the consensus that they didn't need Luol Deng.
> 
> 
> Question: Is Kobe + Deng better than Kobe + Odom?
> 
> Is Deng > Odom?





MikeDC said:


> The fact that this is a question worth considering makes me like the prospect of a Kobe/Deng led team not quite as good as I did before.
> 
> Odom really tough for me to figure. In terms of pure talent the guy is a terrific player. He also doesn't seem to be a bad guy, and these days he's a pretty hard worker from all I can tell. But he's often hurt and his history isn't exactly filled with success.


I'm not sure if Deng > Odom as they are both effective players.

One major difference is that Odom needs the ball in his hands to do what he does best. Kobe needs the ball in his hands to do what he does best. Deng does not, so I think Kobe + Deng would mesh better together than Kobe + Odom.

Also missing from the equation is that the Lakers started Parker, Walton, and Bynum (say him for sake of argument). We would start Hinrich, Smith, and Wallace. As usual, one needs to look at more than one or two players when analyzing (potential) team success.


----------



## GB

Rhyder said:


> One major difference is that Odom needs the ball in his hands to do what he does best...Deng does not.


Explain.


----------



## Hustle

MikeDC said:


> Wow, that'd make it a pretty sure thing, I think.


yes it would, i meant to say rick bucher, not mitch kupchek sorry, not the same at all


----------



## RSP83

I think this is really going to happen. It's just everywhere. If it does, I expect our team to sacrifice at least a couple of core players. It's going to be tough for me to see some of our players being moved. Because I've been watching our team grow and every single player made significant contributions to the team's success over the year. However, I understand that there's no way we can get Kobe caliber without sacrificing some of our best talent.

But if I may choose, I think these are enough for Kobe:

Gordon, Noah, Nocioni, and Duhon/Thabo.

Here are my untouchable players:

Hinrich, Deng, Thomas, and Wallace.


----------



## King Joseus

Magic Johnson to Bulls: No Deng, no deal



> ''A deal can't get done because they won't include [Luol] Deng,'' Johnson said Tuesday on TNT. ''And without Deng, a deal can't get done.''


Not sure if that had been posted or not...


----------



## thebizkit69u

King Joseus said:


> Magic Johnson to Bulls: No Deng, no deal
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if that had been posted or not...


I saw that on TNT, I'm guessing LA wants both Gordon and Deng which is not going to happen Kobe and Pax will not allow that to happen. LA is not in the best possition to negotiate or demand anything, LA needs to get rid of Kobe and fast.


----------



## GB

King Joseus said:


> Magic Johnson to Bulls: No Deng, no deal
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if that had been posted or not...


It's not entirely accurate:

http://www.basketballforum.com/chic...hread-formerly-trade-week-26.html#post5050466


----------



## BeZerker2008

Oh I think a deal can and could be done, regardless of what Magic says. I saw the game last night and Kobe did not look at all content on the court, yes he made his points and such but his face didn't look like someone happy at all. The loss couldn't have made the situation any better. If the Lakers continue a losing streak (with the schedule more than likely to do so) I think the situation will only get worse and worse. 

I also read they were trying to open talks for JOneal again and to be honest, does getting Oneal make the past couple of months disappear? Not to mention does it make them a contender in the West? No. I think the damage has been done and the longer kobe stays there the longer/worse it's going to get.

Right now the Lakers/Bulls both have their poker faces on and seeing who'll bite. I know pax won't bite and include Deng, plus I don't know how the Lakers are going to convince Kobe to take a deal elsewhere. I think Kobe wants to stick it to the Buss' anyway he can.


----------



## King Joseus

GB said:


> It's not entirely accurate:
> 
> http://www.basketballforum.com/chic...hread-formerly-trade-week-26.html#post5050466


Ah. Well take it FWIW, I guess. Rumor-y shenanigans...


----------



## truebluefan

King Joseus said:


> Magic Johnson to Bulls: No Deng, no deal
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if that had been posted or not...


He did say that but at the end of the second game he said that Kobe is distracted. Said something HAS to be done in the next week or two. He said either trade him or not trade him, one or the other. He said Kobe is distracted, the team is distracted. Sure he got 45 pts but missed a lot of fts he normally makes.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

Dan Bernstein just reported that there is a three way deal that the Bulls, Lakers, and Kings have on the table that involves Kirk Hinrich and Ron Artest heading to the Lakers. Bernstein insists that it is real, not talk, and that if Kobe accepts it, it will happen.

Whoa.


----------



## GB

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Dan Bernstein just reported that there is a three way deal that the Bulls, Lakers, and Kings have on the table that involves Kirk Hinrich and Ron Artest heading to the Lakers. Bernstein insists that it is real, not talk, and that if Kobe accepts it, it will happen.
> 
> Whoa.


Who are we sending to Sacto?

Because Pax deserves a banner in the rafter if we get Kobe for Hinrich and keep both Ben and Luol.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

GB said:


> Who are we sending to Sacto?
> 
> Because Pax deserves a banner in the rafter if we get Kobe for Hinrich and keep both Ben and Luol.


Could it be Gordon going to Sacto? Or Thomas? Noah? In either case, we still have to trade 5 or 6 players to make the deal go through unless Wallace is involved.


----------



## rwj333

If both Kirk and Ben leave I'll be kinda sad. I really like both guys and I wanted to pair at least one with Kobe. 

If Sacramento is able to trade Artest for Gordon that's a steal. Artest is pretty much worthless and is seeking a huge payday right?


----------



## GB

rwj333 said:


> Artest is pretty much worthless



.*?*.


----------



## O2K

i think kirk and artest to la and noah to sac town


----------



## McBulls

Artest makes about $7.8 million, so they have to get back salaries of 6-8 million. Artest is not worth Gordon. Deng will not be traded. Nocioni and Smith are unavailable for trades. That leaves Noah, TT, Wallace (doubtful) and/or "filler" like Griffin $1.6 m and Khryapa $1.9 m, Duhon $3.2, Sefolosha $1.8.


----------



## MikeDC

I played around on the trade machine and the only ways I could make that work was if it was
Kirk + Ben Gordon going out
or Kirk + Tyrus + Noah
Neither of those are completely thrilling to me


----------



## GB

O2K said:


> i think kirk and artest to la and noah to sac town



Thats not enough salary.

Would Paxson trade Hinrich to win a ring? Would I give up a body part to be president?

Questions, questions.


----------



## rwj333

GB said:


> .*?*.


I thought this was a generally accepted notion because of his mental issues and general unreliability. He might be one of the 25 best players in the NBA but if he doesn't play then he's not very useful. If Sacramento can get Tyrus or Noah or Gordon for him that would be pretty shocking.


----------



## O2K

GB said:


> Thats not enough salary.
> 
> Would Paxson trade Hinrich to win a ring? Would I give up a body part to be president?
> 
> Questions, questions.



im sure there are other pieces.


personally i'd rather have gordon shipped than kirk, with kobes salary and trying to extend deng im sure that there is little possibility to extend gordon so he'll be a gonner anyways


----------



## GB

rwj333 said:


> I thought this was a generally accepted notion because of his mental issues and general unreliability. He might be one of the 25 best players in the NBA but if he doesn't play then he's not very useful. If Sacramento can get Tyrus or Noah or Gordon for him that would be pretty shocking.



Ok, you're talking _other_ than on-court stuff.

I was about to say...


----------



## theanimal23

I think LA wants Kirk over Gordon. That is not an issue for me. But, my biggest fear is that we lose Kirk, Ben, and Tyrus. Thats 3 valuable assets. I would be fine if the 3rd is Thabo.

If we lose Kirk and Ben primarily, I think I can accept the deal. Initially I will hate it, but I think we would be fine if we retain our young bigs.

That said, I'm not sure what Pax's role is in this deal. Did he sign off on it? Did Reinsdorf take control and bascially close Pax out of negotiations b/c he wants Kobe that badly? I have no idea.

I'm very curious to knowing what else is on the table from all 3 teams.


----------



## bigdbucks

This would be very interesting. Kirk for Kobe? Gordon would become the full time point? IDK?


----------



## GB

bigdbucks said:


> This would be very interesting. Kirk for Kobe? Gordon would become the full time point? IDK?



Duhon.


----------



## spongyfungy

Bernstein says deal is setup but it is up to kobe to approv e. 
Why is it up to Kobe? Why do the lakers want kirk so bad?


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

MikeDC said:


> I played around on the trade machine and the only ways I could make that work was if it was
> Kirk + Ben Gordon going out
> or Kirk + Tyrus + Noah
> Neither of those are completely thrilling to me


Lakers get: 
Kirk Hinrich 
Ron Artest 
Khryapa 
Adrian Griffin 

Bulls get: 
Kobe Bryant 

Kings get: 
Tyrus Thomas 
Chris Duhon

This works, though it leaves us without a traditional point guard. Honestly, though, you've got to make that deal anyway and try to find a pure point guard in another trade, maybe after December 15th. The value in a deal like this is too great to pass up.

BTW, Bernstein just verified that there is a deal that has made it all the way to Bryant. All other teams/GM's have agreed on it. Wow.


----------



## rwj333

theanimal23 said:


> I think LA wants Kirk over Gordon. That is not an issue for me. But, my biggest fear is that we lose Kirk, Ben, and Tyrus. Thats 3 valuable assets. I would be fine if the 3rd is Thabo.
> 
> If we lose Kirk and Ben primarily, I think I can accept the deal. Initially I will hate it, but I think we would be fine if we retain our young bigs.
> 
> That said, I'm not sure what Pax's role is in this deal. Did he sign off on it? Did Reinsdorf take control and bascially close Pax out of negotiations b/c he wants Kobe that badly? I have no idea.
> 
> I'm very curious to knowing what else is on the table from all 3 teams.


Yeah, any 3 asset deal leaves me cold. 

Kobe at PG would be interesting. Last night Doug Collins was talking about how he's just not very good in that role. 

The deal is up to Kobe because he has a no-trade clause, spongy.


----------



## McBulls

MikeDC said:


> I played around on the trade machine and the only ways I could make that work was if it was
> Kirk + Ben Gordon going out
> or Kirk + Tyrus + Noah
> Neither of those are completely thrilling to me


Khryapa $1.9 m, Duhon $3.2, Sefolosha $1.8 should do the trick for Sacramento. Two young expiring contracts and a young wing prospect.

Leaves the Bulls pretty thin at guard, though.

Gordon, Gardiner, Barret
Bryant, Deng, JO Curry, Griffin
Deng, Nocioni, Griffin
TT, Noah, Smith
Wallace, Noah, Gray


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

spongyfungy said:


> Bernstein says deal is setup but it is up to kobe to approv e.
> Why is it up to Kobe? Why do the lakers want kirk so bad?


Kobe has a no trade clause, so he can veto the deal if if guts the Bulls too much for his liking.


----------



## SoCalfan21

We have 4 friggin point gaurds why do we need a 5th from the Bulls? Jus Curious..


There is no talk of this trade on any LA radio stations either.


----------



## rwj333

I'm completely shocked that Paxson agreed on a deal so quickly. I thought for sure that he would wait a few games and see how our team looks.


----------



## rwj333

McBulls said:


> Khryapa $1.9 m, Duhon $3.2, Sefolosha $1.8 should do the trick for Sacramento. Two young expiring contracts and a young wing prospect.


I like the way you think.


----------



## spongyfungy

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Kobe has a no trade clause, so he can veto the deal if if guts the Bulls too much for his liking.


outside the "if the bulls deal deng, I'm not approving" I don't see how Kobe would not approve a trade to the bulls that doesn't involve Deng. 
I mean does Kobe have a list of players he wants on the Bulls? It's going to take some good players and not magic beans and kobe has to accept that.


----------



## TripleDouble

The Bulls would be stupid to trade for Kobe now. Let him play half-assed and create more of a stink thus reducing his value if you're going to do it.


----------



## GB

Folks, if a trade happens there will be a new thread started and this one will be locked for posterity.

At nearly 500 posts, the time is approaching anyway.


----------



## Bulls4Life

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Lakers get:
> Kirk Hinrich
> Ron Artest
> Khryapa
> Adrian Griffin
> 
> Bulls get:
> Kobe Bryant
> 
> Kings get:
> Tyrus Thomas
> Chris Duhon
> 
> This works, though it leaves us without a traditional point guard. Honestly, though, you've got to make that deal anyway and try to find a pure point guard in another trade, maybe after December 15th. The value in a deal like this is too great to pass up.
> 
> BTW, Bernstein just verified that there is a deal that has made it all the way to Bryant. All other teams/GM's have agreed on it. Wow.


Maybe I'm crazy, but I'd rather part with Deng than Thomas! Just the thought of his athleticism on the floor with Kobe is making me salivate!
:drool:


----------



## BG7

LOL at Paxson trading Kirk when I finally came around to liking him more. 

This makes sense. You don't trade your best players in these types of trades. Gordon and Deng are clearly our best. Kirk Hinrich is third best, and a guard, so its logical that he would be traded. Tyrus Thomas, if he gets traded, I won't care. He seems like a bust. Good value for Sacramento for Artest though. 

Maybe Lakers were also sour on Gordon, because they felt he'd bolt after one year, and not stick around on a losing team.


----------



## johnston797

There are all kinds of deals that would work if you give Sweetney or PJ $1.5m or @2m.


----------



## McBulls

TripleDouble said:


> The Bulls would be stupid to trade for Kobe now. Let him play half-assed and create more of a stink thus reducing his value if you're going to do it.


Your definition of half-assed would have to include a player who scored 45 points in the opening game of the season and played both ends of the floor for most of the game like a superstar. The only half-assed thing I saw about his performance last night was he missed a lot of free throws (one of them missed beautifully on purpose that rebounded to himself at the end of the game.)


----------



## McBulls

SoCalfan21 said:


> We have 4 friggin point gaurds why do we need a 5th from the Bulls? Jus Curious..


Well, judging from the performance of LA's point guards in the opening game, Hinrich would be a great upgrade.


----------



## O2K

this is the best thread ive ever started. Im proud.


----------



## BG7

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...32~110~25&teams=23~13~23~23~13~4~13&te=&cash=

That has to be the final deal. 

It should be fun, with Tyrus gone, Aaron Gray getting a larger role in the front court this year. 

Our backup guard depth is killed...but I'm sure we can find someone. Like Warriors got Azubuike out of the D-League last year, and now he's starting. We should be able to find someone. Our frontcourt with Smith/Wallace/Gray/Noah looks pretty good still. Maybe go out and try to shore it up with Chris Webber.


----------



## Fred

rick bucher said that trade you posted with the kings isn't anymore valid than the other. He said from his source who's involved with the lakers said the trade being discussed features these two guys. That Hinrich is in no deal.

Ben Gordon To LA

Kobe to Chicago

That Deng isn't in the discussion. he said though that two teams are just too far away. So basically he's reporting what we know lol. He did say Ben Wallace's name has surfaced in talks now. Probably cap reasons is my guess. BTW, that trade with the Kings leaves the bulls with no real PG

**Edit***
Bucher is on ESPN 1000 talking about it


----------



## TripleDouble

McBulls said:


> Your definition of half-assed would have to include a player who scored 45 points in the opening game of the season and played both ends of the floor for most of the game like a superstar. The only half-assed thing I saw about his performance last night was he missed a lot of free throws (one of them missed beautifully on purpose that rebounded to himself at the end of the game.)


One game. Plus, if the Lakers are convinced that Kobe is going to shut up and play well, why would they trade him?


----------



## O2K

isn't Kirk BYC?


----------



## Rhyder

GB said:


> Explain.


Odom excels at playing the point forward. Put the ball in his hands to initiate the offense or take his man off the dribble from the perimeter and he can usually look to either score for himself or free up a teammate. Unfortunately for Odom, Kobe is better in this role and deserves the ball even moreso. One would think this would be a benefit as you would have two playmakers/scorers, but Odom does not play off the ball well at all.

Most of Deng's game is playing off the ball. He is just starting to be able to put it on the floor a little bit and take his man, but most of his points last year came from opponents setting him up after Deng put himself in a good position to score the ball after a good cut or running his guy through a good screen.

Offensively, Odom is better than Deng right now when he gets to handle the ball. He's better than Deng on the boards too. It might not be so outlandish to say Deng on the Lakers and Odom on the Bulls would make both teams better (this season).


----------



## Rhyder

O2K said:


> isn't Kirk BYC?


Yep, which means his trade value is 50% of his salary, or ~$5.6 million


----------



## DaBullz

Kobe has a trade kicker for $4.5M in each of two years. This means a team needs to come up with $20M to satisfy the CBA.


----------



## step

Well he could waive the kicker, supposedly Garnett did the same to get the Celtics trade to work.


----------



## DaBullz

LOL. Everything I've seen is that Kobe wants a $30M contract extension and won't wave the trade kicker. He's out for the $bucks, too.


----------



## Peja Vu

nothing new here, it's just in the print media now:

Is a Bulls trade for Kobe Bryant in the works?




> _Trade rumors involving Los Angeles Lakers superstar Kobe Bryant coming to the Bulls just won't go away. In fact, they are getting hotter and heavier by the minute.
> 
> The latest, as reported by WSCR 670-AM, has Bryant coming to the Bulls as part of a three-way deal involving the Sacramento Kings.
> 
> Bulls guard Kirk Hinrich and Kings forward Ron Artest, a former Bulls, could wind up in Los Angeles.
> 
> The rumor was also being discussed on WMVP 1000-AM.
> 
> 
> A Bulls source denied any deal was imminent.
> _


----------



## mayobluedemon

*Paxson, PLEASE keep our TEAM intact.*











Dear John Paxson,

You have been successful at rebuilding Chicago basketball from scratch. You have created a team-oriented, high-offense, good defense TEAM. We have incredible individual talent, great teamwork, and even better depth.

Please keep our TEAM together. Trading for Kobe will totally change the dynamic of the TEAM. We want to see Chicago win a championship with the TEAM that you have built. No need for any superstar, especially one who will insert an 'I' to the word TEAM.


----------



## The ROY

lol, sure

sorry to burst yours but THAT team isn't winning a championship


----------



## GB

*Re: Paxson, PLEASE keep our TEAM intact.*



mayobluedemon said:


> Dear John Paxson,
> 
> You have been successful at rebuilding Chicago basketball from scratch. You have created a team-oriented, high-offense, good defense TEAM. We have incredible individual talent, great teamwork, and even better depth.
> 
> Please keep our TEAM together. Trading for Kobe will totally change the dynamic of the TEAM. We want to see Chicago win a championship with the TEAM that you have built. No need for any superstar, especially one who will insert an 'I' to the word TEAM.



I like.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: Paxson, PLEASE keep our TEAM intact.*



GB said:


> I like.


You get to start the "Kirk Hinrich Update Thread"

If we get a #1 pick back, you can start the "Official Kings (or Lakers) just won the Lottery" thread.


----------



## Peja Vu

*Re: Paxson, PLEASE keep our TEAM intact.*



> ESPN is reporting that a three-way trade involving the Lakers, Bulls and Kings is now dead, but has been discussed.
> 
> The Lakers would acquire Ron Artest and Ben Wallace, the Kings would acquire Ben Gordon and P.J. Brown, while the Bulls would get Kobe Bryant. [READ]


http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_a...way_kobe_trade_involving_kings_falls_through/


----------



## O2K

*Re: Paxson, PLEASE keep our TEAM intact.*

didn't kobe want to play with wallace?


----------



## narek

*Re: Paxson, PLEASE keep our TEAM intact.*



O2K said:


> didn't kobe want to play with wallace?


I think there's just a lot of smoke, and no fire, to all of this.


----------



## LoyalBull

Me too.

Game starts in less than an hour... I'd give it legs if aforementioned players are not playing tonight.


----------



## mqtcelticsfan

*Re: Paxson, PLEASE keep our TEAM intact.*



Artestify! said:


> http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_a...way_kobe_trade_involving_kings_falls_through/


How does a team trade a free agent?


----------



## McBulls

*Re: Paxson, PLEASE keep our TEAM intact.*



mqtcelticsfan said:


> How does a team trade a free agent?


Tomorrow he won't be available for a trade without the usual restrictions. But tonight he is.

Actually, that and many other things will turn into pumpkins and mice at midnight and nix any possibility of a trade until December.


----------



## GB

*The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*

News, Commentary, and Updates go here.

Lets keep up the great discussions that we've been having. 


Feel free to start other threads if you wish, but check back here too.


----------



## GB

Lets move to thread 2: http://www.basketballforum.com/chicago-bulls/381185-official-bulls-lakers-kobe-trade-thread-2-a.html


----------



## GB

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*

Last page of thread 1:

http://www.basketballforum.com/chic...kobe-trade-thread-formerly-trade-week-31.html


----------



## THEbigO

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*

Why do we have another thread for this?


----------



## GB

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*

ESPN says the trade is dead: did Kobe kill it?


----------



## GB

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*

Bulls are looking for a new third team --> Sacto has bowed out.


No one is going to want Tyrus after tonight.


----------



## GB

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*

Detroit?

Vecsey says:



> With all due respect to the above mentioned, there may not be a more perfect fit than the Pistons. Obviously, they must give to get; Rip Hamilton and Tayshaun Prince somewhat compensate L.A. for the loss of its crown jewel and also it works contractually.
> 
> Meanwhile, the vets who’d remain with the Pistons have won, as Kobe has won, so the pressure to win wouldn’t be as great as in Chicago, New York, Atlanta or New Jersey, because they know how to done-do a title.
> 
> Then again, maybe Kobe’s stretch-marked ego cannot be gratified performing in an out-of-the-way oasis vs. a sexy city. Still, if his No. 1 priority is to take the season to its triumphant limit for the fourth time in 12 years, what better spot (other than with a West contender) than beautiful downtown Auburn Hills?


----------



## RageofDaBulls

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*



GB said:


> No one is going to want Tyrus after tonight.


good that means he stays here..:clap:


----------



## ¹²³

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*

I prefer unofficial threads. Next.


----------



## chibul

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*



GB said:


> Detroit?
> 
> Vecsey says:


Of course, that'd be assuming Vecsey has any credibility about anything, which he doesn't.


----------



## GB

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*



> Kobe Bryant deserves to have a General Manager/Leadership team that can evaluate players like the Spurs organization; develop them like the Bulls organization; and treat them with the level of deep respect that the Maverick organization does. This current Laker organization--as defined by their actions-- are not overly competent in player personnel matters.
> 
> And, the Lakers deserve a player who wants to be in Los Angeles.
> 
> These two should be divorced.
> 
> Everyone wants to come to L.A. But Kobe wants to leave. The greatest franchise in the history of the game can't treat the greatest player in the game with enough respect to encourage him to remain. This is crazy.
> 
> New England is now the mecca of sports excellence; the President of France is Hungarian; people care more what happens to Britany Spears than the fact 1,000 people are dying every month in Darfur. And, I won’t even bring up the Congo.
> 
> And Kobe Bryant wants to leave L.A. Yes, the end really is near.


http://higherrock.blogs.com/lindells_gospel/2007/10/la-confidential.html


----------



## GB

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*

Update:



> A person with knowledge of the discussions told Newsday before the game that at this point, nothing appears imminent between the two teams. *The person, who would be notified if a trade were imminent, had not yet been brought into the discussions*.
> 
> The Lakers-Bulls talks aren't dead, because right now the Bulls are the only team on Kobe's list. WSCR radio in Chicago started chatter of a potential three-team deal involving Sacramento, but soon was refuting its own report, which is believed to have been off the mark.
> 
> The sticking point has been Deng, whom the Bulls don’t want to include in a deal. Nor does Kobe want to play in Chicago without him. Deng, however, can’t figure out why, if he’s so valuable, would the Bulls not budge from his agent’s five-year, $50 million offer on the extension.


http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/basketball/nba/blog/2007/10/bulls_at_nets_still_no_kobe.html


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*



GB said:


> Update:
> http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/basketball/nba/blog/2007/10/bulls_at_nets_still_no_kobe.html


I'd like to figure out the same thing Deng can't figure out.


----------



## GB

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*



MikeDC said:


> I'd like to figure out the same thing Deng can't figure out.



Co-sign. :cheers:


----------



## GB

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*

Does the first game change your opinion on wanting Kobe?


----------



## GB

*Re: The Official Bulls / Lakers / Kobe trade thread #2!*

Bulls poll on CSN:

35% say the Bulls don't need kobe
28% say get him if you can, but don't trade Luol


----------



## GB

One down:



> During Wednesday night's game against the Cleveland Cavaliers , Mavs' owner Mark Cuban said that the team is not pursuing a trade for the Los Angeles Lakers star.
> 
> "We haven't talked to them," Cuban told ESPN's Lisa Salters during a sideline interview. "It's not gonna happen. We've got a great squad. We like it."
> 
> Cuban was asked if the team has any interest at all in Bryant.
> 
> "We're always looking for bargains, but I don't think they're going to give us any bargains," he said.


----------



## Chops

Ric Bucher said the Bulls, Lakers are trying really hard to get something done at this point and the Kings want to get rid of Artest. It's just a matter of finding the right mix of players to make everyone AND Kobe happy.


----------



## someone

The Lakers without Kobe... lol...

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----------



## GB

MikeDC said:


> The fact that this is a question worth considering makes me like the prospect of a Kobe/Deng led team not quite as good as I did before.
> 
> Odom really tough for me to figure. In terms of pure talent the guy is a terrific player. He also doesn't seem to be a bad guy, and these days he's a pretty hard worker from all I can tell. But he's often hurt and his history isn't exactly filled with success.



This guy thinks the same as you Mike:



> The bizarre aspect to this whole uncomfortable relationship is that, if Bryant could just be patient and wait for Odom to return, he might see a team better than one that he could be traded to, given the restrictions of the teams he wants to go to.
> --
> ...he seemed like he looked forward to Odom coming back, which should be in the next two to three weeks. “That’s the goal, “he said. “We put out a great effort. Rad was out. Lamar is a huge key to this team. We just have to focus on our effort and intensity and try to sustain it until they get back.”
> 
> For a period in the third quarter, it appeared that the Lakers’ 2007-08 season would be a headache to everyone involved. In the end, the pain let up a bit. It might return again Friday in Phoenix, when a team gunning for an NBA title tries to remind Bryant of what a real contender looks like.
> 
> Yet if the Lakers can bottle that last 1:36 or so from Tuesday night and try to ration it until help arrives, Bryant might just find himself facing more basketball questions and fewer trade ones.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21555194/


----------



## MikeDC

On the other hand, misery could continue to follow Odom for no particular reason...
... well, actually, running a red light and t-boning some woman in her Geo is a particular reason:


> L.A. Lakers star Lamar Odom was involved in a two car crash in Hawthorne, Calif., yesterday morning which sent one person to the hospital.
> 
> Police sources tell TMZ they are investigating Odom for allegedly running a red light in his Mercedes and T-boning a Geo Prism driven by a 37-year-old woman. Firefighters had to use the Jaws of Life to extract the victim from the wreckage. The victim's family tells TMZ that she is in serious but stable condition with a head injury and injuries to her left leg.
> 
> Sources tell us neither alcohol nor drugs were a factor in the accident, adding Odom stayed with the victim and was very concerned about her well being.


Seriously, I hope the woman is ok, but man, bad things just happen around Lamar. Really terrible things, actually.


----------



## GB

He got a concussion in that accident.


----------



## MikeDC

By the way, does anyone think the idea of putting Ben Wallace and Ron Artest on the same team is manifestly crazy?


----------



## lougehrig

*Wallace and Artest to LA...?*

LA, Bulls, Kings rumor they mentioned on ESPN. Somehow Wallace and Artest end up in LA. Wow. Wallace in a trade rumor?

Sportscenter had a segment were Chris Shederian was interviewing Deng and he pointed out that Kobe is vetoing trades on the table it makes me think Deng knows hes in the trade but Kobe doesn't want him to go...


----------



## GB

MikeDC said:


> By the way, does anyone think the idea of putting Ben Wallace and Ron Artest on the same team is manifestly crazy?


Somewhere beyond, actually.

I'm sure Phil Jackson will love it. But can a blue-collar defense 1st team make it in LA?


----------



## KDOS

:lol: @ BSPN's crap of an idea of a crappy trade rumor.

Ben Wallace and Ron Artest for Kobe?


:lol:


----------



## bigdbucks

The newest rumor on espn is that Kobe does not want to go to Chicago if Luol is not there. This is a great sign for us hopefully it continues. We should've signed Lu to whatever he wanted. The man is a stellar ball player and human being. He should be rewarded for his hard work. Way to blow it Paxson. You better make amends and make the right move here.


----------



## lougehrig

bigdbucks said:


> The newest rumor on espn is that Kobe does not want to go to Chicago if Luol is not there. This is a great sign for us hopefully it continues. We should've signed Lu to whatever he wanted. The man is a stellar ball player and human being. He should be rewarded for his hard work. Way to blow it Paxson. You better make amends and make the right move here.


I think Kobe's value is dropping by the second. Let's just be patient and we won't have to pay too much. The fans were booing him in LA.

Hinrich and Deng need to stay and I think that's obvious to Paxson and Kobe.


----------



## Eternal

lougehrig said:


> I think Kobe's value is dropping by the second. Let's just be patient and we won't have to pay too much. The fans were booing him in LA.
> 
> Hinrich and Deng need to stay and I think that's obvious to Paxson and Kobe.


The fan's were booing him, but later on were cheering for him shortly after around the 9 minute mark, and then later were chanting Ko-be.


----------



## lougehrig

Eternal said:


> The fan's were booing him, but later on were cheering for him shortly after around the 9 minute mark, and then later were chanting Ko-be.


Well that makes him as well liked and well respected as ARod in New York City.


----------



## Eternal

lougehrig said:


> Well that makes him as well liked and well respected as ARod in New York City.


Pretty much.


----------



## lougehrig

So here's a hypothetical question. Let's say Tyrus isn't traded, what number would Kobe wear?


----------



## Peja Vu

> The Kings were rumored to be involved in a three-way deal with the Lakers and the Bulls, but Petrie said: "There is nothing there. As close to zero as possible."


http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/465261.html


----------



## Showtyme

Kobe Bryant's potential foray to the Bulls may go down as the quietest franchise-ruiner in our post-MJ history. More so than a motorcycle accident, or a DNA test.

Why? 

Because not extending Deng and Gordon is a direct result of Kobe's potential interest. Paxson's strategy for "building young assets" has been working, but working too well. He has much more than a team of good trade assets: he has a team with chemistry, a team that has jelled. A team that believes in each other and in their chances to go deep into the playoffs, a team that if given one season of destiny, just might do the improbable and eclipse the Pistons as the "no-star" championship model of the last 15 years.

Deng, as quoted in the ESPN article, seemed to be in genuine disbelief that he didn't get extended. It's possible that Reinsdorf didn't want to loosen the wallet strings beyond $50 million. But I'll bet that if there was NOT a Kobe rumor circulating, the Bulls would have gotten the deal done. Deng's worth is higher than $50 mil, everyone knows it, and even though this is the only time the team holds leverage, they should have been ready to commit to those guys.

They could have been ready, if not for the Kobe rumor.

Now, we have a potentially disgruntled pair of players. And they will perform at a level that will price them way higher. If Rashard Lewis is a super-max player, then so is 23-year-old Luol Deng after the 07-08 season averaging 22, 9 and 3 on 50% FG.

The Bulls will either financially handicap themselves and damage the flexibility to add the right young vets to complete the formula, or financially handicap themselves by being forced to choose between Deng or Gordon, or handicap themselves financially AND talent-wise by having their hands forced into terrible sign-and-trades. Until now, the Bulls have been able to control their salary cap struggles. After this, they won't be able to.

If they don't get this Kobe deal done, and they missed out on the opportunity to lock in Luol Deng AND Ben Gordon for 11 mil a year, then this will hands-down be the worst move by Bulls management since MJ and in my eyes will inspire a vote of NO CONFIDENCE in management, spelling the end of the story.

The situation may be far more crucial than we can see, and the damage may be too late. 

If we package Gordon, Tyrus and Big Ben and get back Kobe and say, Turiaf, then we'll come out just fine. And by the way, that's a whole lot of talent going to L.A.; three marquee players (one in twilight, one in his prime, and one budding athletic star). Pax will have made the right move, Deng will get paid next summer, the Bulls will have a fierce lineup and own the East.

But if the trade doesn't get done, then we've got a serious, serious problem.


----------



## DaBullz

Great post, showtyme, and good to see you!

To take it one step further, maybe signing Big Ben in the first place was a bad move for the same reasons. Pax has built a team from the ground up through the draft and Ben is a real exception; the headband issue alone kinda puts him in a special class all his own, among the players.

I was and still am a fan of signing Wallace, don't get me wrong, I'm just seeing the logic in what you wrote


----------



## MikeDC

Nice post Showtyme.... I'm stunned myself we didn't make a real offer to Deng. I just can't believe it.


----------



## rwj333

Someone will have to explain to me why we can't make them larger offers next summer, when they are RFA during an offseason where no teams have cap space. Anyone?


----------



## rwj333

MikeDC said:


> Nice post Showtyme.... I'm stunned myself we didn't make a real offer to Deng. I just can't believe it.


Making a large offer to Deng and not making one to Gordon is a slap in the face to Gordon.


----------



## GB

Nice post Showtyme.

Question: Did Paxson lowball the two _only_ because of the Kobe offers?

In retrospect, was KH lowballed?

Double-retrospect: Are the Bulls drafting a certain type of baller with this thought in mind? 

Both KH and LD are the types would take a bit less because of their worldview...and just be grateful for a contract of millions? Is this organization strategy?


----------



## GB

*Stagnate.*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=sheridan_chris&page=Deng_Bryant



> Chicago Bulls forward Luol Deng was a conflicted man on Wednesday night. He had turned down a reported $50 million earlier in the day, and now he sat inside the dank visiting locker room at the Meadowlands, preparing for a game and wanting some answers.
> 
> Bulls forward Tyrus Thomas was looking for answers, too, leaning in to listen to the latest on the Kobe Bryant-centered universe.
> 
> Chicago center Ben Wallace was all ears as well, likewise seeking an accurate reading on the Bryant talks.
> 
> All three had been mentioned as potential trade bait for the Los Angeles Lakers superstar. So on the opening night of the season, a steady ship they were not.
> 
> "No one is telling me much of anything. I don't know what is going on exactly," Deng said regarding the Bryant trade talks.
> 
> And the state of those talks is this:
> 
> Deng is very much in play in the conversations between Chicago and Los Angeles, ESPN.com has learned.
> 
> And it's mainly because of Bryant's wishes that Deng is still wearing a Chicago uniform.
> 
> A source with knowledge of the trade talks said Deng has been included in proposals swapped between the teams, but Bryant has continually threatened to veto almost any deal in which Deng would be included. Bryant wants to be sure that the team he joins has enough talent remaining to compete for the NBA title.
> 
> The source said talks between the teams had stagnated, though by no means were they dead.


----------



## GB

Deng is calling Kobe:



> "I'm definitely surprised we didn't come to terms. I thought we would come to terms, I really did. The last couple weeks we started talking more seriously," Deng said.
> 
> He was asked what the situation said about the Bulls' commitment to him.
> 
> "I understand the question, I just don't really know how to answer it," he said.
> 
> And with that, Deng started pressing to have some information passed his way.
> 
> And after being told of Bryant's veto power and how he was wielding it, Deng was asked if he knows Bryant personally?
> 
> "Yes."
> 
> And was Deng friendly enough with Kobe to give him a casual call or send him a text message?
> 
> "Yes," Deng said. "I guess it's time for me to pull out his phone number."


----------



## GB

500


----------



## MikeDC

I've got some strong and conflicting opinions.

1. I absolutely hate the idea of letting Kobe Bryant be the _de facto_ GM before he even gets here. He'll be his own undoing and everyone else's if he's not careful.

2. On this particular issue I agree with him though. Watching Deng obliterate Vince Carter last night solidified my( previously not solid) feelings that he's NOT the guy we want to give up. It's not a matter of Deng being better than Kobe, but it's for the same reasons the Heat wouldn't give up Wade to get Shaq. You need both of those guys.


----------



## GB

MikeDC said:


> I've got some strong and conflicting opinions.
> 
> 1. I absolutely hate the idea of letting Kobe Bryant be the _de facto_ GM before he even gets here. He'll be his own undoing and everyone else's if he's not careful.


Can't play and be GM too. MJ tossed some weird ideas out there too.

But I'd love the effect that a Kobe would have on a Deng (like how MJ polished Pip?)...much as I'd bet Noah and Tyrus are learning quite a bit about defensive positioning from Wallace.


----------



## GB

New Rumor: Phoenix is back in play, but wants Thabo as a part of any deal.

This is getting tiring.


----------



## RageofDaBulls

i hope Sasha Vujacic comes over with kobe..


----------



## chifaninca

Look Deng has to be the untouchable in this deal. TT playing so pathetic didn't help the cuase any.

I'm seriously wondering if he will get it going before Wallace is done. 

I want to keep one of the two, but right now I lean toward Noah, cause of his ability to also play center.

Thabo in the rumors????????? How could we survive without Thabo? Ummmm, just fine. I'd rather keep him, but Kobe gets 40 mins, Deng gets 40 mins and there's not much left for Thabonator.


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## chifaninca

GB - What exactly is the new rumor


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## GB

chifaninca said:


> TT playing so pathetic didn't help the cuase any.


Trust me...GM's aren't making the call based on one game.


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## rwj333

GB said:


> New Rumor: Phoenix is back in play, but wants Thabo as a part of any deal.
> 
> This is getting tiring.


I'd be surprised if Thabo ended up holding up any deal. I love his skills, but he's not very good right now.


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## BULLHITTER

> i hope Sasha Vujacic comes over with kobe


i hope he doesn't.:whatever:


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## chifaninca

Ture GB, but you look at Aldridge and a GM can sell him to the fans as a real, ready to play NBA player. TT is all about potential and patience. LA has that porblem with Bynum.


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## Fred

GB said:


> This is getting tiring.


my thoughts exactly


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## GB

chifaninca said:


> Ture GB, but you look at Aldridge and a GM can sell him to the fans as a real, ready to play NBA player. TT is all about potential and patience. LA has that porblem with Bynum.


Indiana has wanted to swap JON's talent for Bynums potential for a long time now.

People like 'potential'.


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## chifaninca

They wanted Odom included to balance the "potential" thing.

I'd trade O'Neal for Odom and Bynum in a second. 

I don't know, I'm just disappointed in TT. Not because of the one game, but he just seems to stillb e all energy, no BB smarts. He plays outta control and you cant' do that in NBA and not get in foul trouble.


Still, I'm curious what else we'd give up along with Thabo if Phoenix got involved. I'm assuming Laker send Kobe to Chicago, Phoenix Sends Marion to LA, Chicago send out: Thabo +


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## GB

chifaninca said:


> he just seems to stillb e all energy, no BB smarts.


Same mistake Krause made?


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## Fred

ha E-Rob. he was too busy adjusting his shorts and headband when he was on the court. i wanted to punch him everytime i saw that headband over his ears


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## chifaninca

Ouch - EROBBERY.............

TT should be much better than that.

I'm just concerned his curve is gonna take much longer than we can wait and that we don't have the coaching staff to develop.....well, any of our players.


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## chifaninca

PS - I miss those sweaters. Grandma's everywhere justify sweaters as gifts cause of EROBBERY


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## GB

chifaninca said:


> I'm just concerned his curve is gonna take much longer than we can wait


I wish we knew what went on in practice. I hear its there, more than the games, that organizations make determinations about players futures.



> we don't have the coaching staff to develop.....well, any of our players.


Blasphemy.


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## lougehrig

So the new rumor floating around is LA/Phoenix/Chicago

Phoenix get: Wallace and Thabo

Lakers get: Gordon and Marion

Bulls get: Kobe

Funny part about it, it actually works in the trade checker.

Trade Machine results: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...028~885~110~510&teams=13~21~21~4~13&te=&cash=

Gordon, Wallace, Thabo for Kobe. Hmmmm...I love Wallace, but that's a pretty good deal for us.

This is actually a good trade for all three teams honestly.

Chicago:
Hinrich / Duhon
Kobe
Deng / Noc
Tyrus / Noc / Smith
Smith / Noah / Gray

Phoenix:
Nash / Barbosa
Bell / Thabo
Diaw
Amare
Wallace

LA:
Fisher
Gordon
Marion
Odom
Bynum

Kobe gets what he wants (Chicago with a good core).
Marion gets what he wants (to be the star player on a team).
Phoenix gets what they need (defensive player to help Amare)


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## Fred

Hmm thats an intereseting deal. I think I could definitely deal with that one. You still have a good chunk of your young core players as well.


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## The One

lougehrig said:


> So the new rumor floating around is LA/Phoenix/Chicago
> 
> Phoenix get: Wallace and Thabo
> 
> Lakers get: Gordon and Marion
> 
> Bulls get: Kobe
> 
> Funny part about it, it actually works in the trade checker.
> 
> Trade Machine results: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...028~885~110~510&teams=13~21~21~4~13&te=&cash=
> 
> Gordon, Wallace, Thabo for Kobe. Hmmmm...I love Wallace, but that's a pretty good deal for us.
> 
> This is actually a good trade for all three teams honestly.
> 
> Chicago:
> Hinrich / Duhon
> Kobe
> Deng / Noc
> Tyrus / Noc / Smith
> Smith / Noah / Gray
> 
> Phoenix:
> Nash / Barbosa
> Bell / Thabo
> Diaw
> Amare
> Wallace
> 
> LA:
> Fisher
> Gordon
> Marion
> Odom
> Bynum
> 
> Kobe gets what he wants (Chicago with a good core).
> Marion gets what he wants (to be the star player on a team).
> Phoenix gets what they need (defensive player to help Amare)


Me speaking as a Laker and Kobe fan(and soon Buls fan), This is an Awsome Trade!!


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## GB

Two questions: 

1. Who backs up Kobe?

2. (Ok, not a question): I'd bet the Lakers would then take a good look at sending Bynum out for O'neal. O'Neal, BG, and Marion is a solid, though win-now, core.





lougehrig said:


> So the new rumor floating around is LA/Phoenix/Chicago
> 
> Phoenix get: Wallace and Thabo
> 
> Lakers get: Gordon and Marion
> 
> Bulls get: Kobe
> 
> Funny part about it, it actually works in the trade checker.
> 
> Trade Machine results: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...028~885~110~510&teams=13~21~21~4~13&te=&cash=
> 
> Gordon, Wallace, Thabo for Kobe. Hmmmm...I love Wallace, but that's a pretty good deal for us.
> 
> This is actually a good trade for all three teams honestly.
> 
> Chicago:
> Hinrich / Duhon
> Kobe
> Deng / Noc
> Tyrus / Noc / Smith
> Smith / Noah / Gray
> 
> Phoenix:
> Nash / Barbosa
> Bell / Thabo
> Diaw
> Amare
> Wallace
> 
> LA:
> Fisher
> Gordon
> Marion
> Odom
> Bynum
> 
> Kobe gets what he wants (Chicago with a good core).
> Marion gets what he wants (to be the star player on a team).
> Phoenix gets what they need (defensive player to help Amare)


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## bootstrenf

if i was a phx fan, i would not be very happy with that trade...


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## GB

Wallace replaces Kurt Thomas as their interior defender. The center in their setup really has no other role.


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## lougehrig

GB said:


> Two questions: 1. Who backs up Kobe?


Deng (Noc at SF), Hinrich (Du at PG)


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## King Joseus

Sam Smith on ESPN News right now. 

"Not close." "Not gonna be any deals for Kobe." "Not gonna be in Chicago." "So far from making a deal" 

"No disrespect to the Bulls...it's not a championship nucleus...good players, they're not _great_ players"


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## GB

King Joseus said:


> "Not gonna be in Chicago."


Until I hear Pax say it...


Time to turn our attention to LeBron.





> "No disrespect to the Bulls...it's not a championship nucleus...good players, they're not _great_ players"


The same was said of Ho grant and Pip joining MJ.

Not that we have an MJ...but you can't tell with young players.


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## Fred

Its sam smith. I'll wait for a more reliable source. I dont think he's been right about any of his trade scenarios anyways.


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## chifaninca

I'd jump on that deal so friggin fast everyone's head would spin for years.

Wallace? If Kobe's holding that up - Dude...........don't.

That would be a steal plus a penalty for unbelieveable GMing.

That's why it can't be real.

I do think it helps the Bulls and the Suns, not sure about the Lakers...However, Gordona nd Marion really are better than most of what we could put together.


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## lougehrig

bootstrenf said:


> if i was a phx fan, i would not be very happy with that trade...


Ya? Marion is a bit redundant with Amare, IMHO. If they had Wallace, Amare would be MVP of this league and average 30 ppg. Wallace would make Phoenix a clear favorite to win the title I think.


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## jnrjr79

That is one of the more palatable trade scenarios I've seen. Interesting.


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## MikeDC

lougehrig said:


> So the new rumor floating around is LA/Phoenix/Chicago
> 
> Phoenix get: Wallace and Thabo
> 
> Lakers get: Gordon and Marion
> 
> Bulls get: Kobe


I'd be on that like white on rice. Honestly I think that holds something for every team. Phoenix is sort getting itself in salary cap trouble down the road, but they'd be giving themselves a really good chance at winning a title.

The Lakers don't immediately look like contenders, but they'll end up with a lot of cap room and a lot of talented players. That's about the best they can hope for out of this kind of deal.

And we end up with
1- Hinrich, Duhon
2- Kobe, Griffin
3- Deng, Noc
4- Thomas, _Noc, Noah_
5- Smith, Noah, Gray

Yes, I would prefer another couple years of experience on Thomas and Noah, but by effectively swapping Wallace for a younger, better guy, we're getting a bit of a lease on making that happen. 

This deal really seems like it's got potential to me. The only real snag I see is whether Phoenix will be willing to take on Wallace's contract and go for broke for a championship this year.


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## GB

The deal is dead. For now.

*I'm sure Paxson went back to his office and got right back on the phone with Kupchak.* 



> The Bulls will compete with their current roster until further notice.
> 
> "The reality is, everybody knows we were having talks with the Lakers," Paxson said at the Berto Center. "But there's not a deal done, there's not going to be a deal done.
> 
> "I want to focus on trying to get our guys back on track and end all the rumors swirling around. Because there's not a deal that ever was on the verge of being done, was ever close to being done, or is going to be done right now. It's not there. So that's that."
> --
> "It's not about not being interested. It's about there's not a deal to be done," Paxson said. "We talked a lot about parameters. We never got down to the nuts and bolts of it because there was never a deal to be done. That's the reality of it."
> 
> Paxson shot down recent talk that the sticking point was the Bulls' refusal to include Luol Deng in any deal.
> 
> "I've never thought we were at a point where you say anybody's off limits," he said. "A lot of things that were mentioned were not based on any fact whatsoever. That's the unfortunate thing."


http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=68887


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## kelvinzee

*Kobe 3 way trade with Suns*

We all know the bulls are trying to deal for kobe. We need to include the suns in a 3 way deal. I checked salary through trade machine and i think this is a deal that would work for all parties involved.

Bulls get
Kobe Bryant

Lakers get
Ben Gordon
Shawn Marion
Joakim Noah
#1 unprotected from Phoenix (through Atlanta)

Phoenix gets
Kwame Brown
Tyrus Thomas
Thabo Sefolosha
#1 from Chicago
Chris Duhon

So essentially Chicago is trading
Ben Gordon
Ty Thomas
Joakim Noah
Griffin
Thabo
#1 pick

would be left with

PG Hinrich
SG Kobe
SF Deng
PF Smith
C Wallace
with Nocioni as 6th man. We will need depth, but i can live with that.


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## GB

KC Johnson says Pax did the right thing:



> General manager John Paxson pulled the plug on the Kobe Bryant sweepstakes after Thursday's practice, *doing the right thing* for a 15-man team that he constructed.
> 
> "There's not a deal to be done," Paxson said.
> 
> Players and coaches said all the right things before Wednesday's opener in New Jersey about how the Bryant rumors weren't a distraction.
> 
> But they were. And now they aren't.
> 
> *The solution seemed so simple, and give credit to Paxson for recognizing it as such. He did what he had to do to help the Bulls start focusing on the task at hand: winning the Eastern Conference.*
> 
> There is simply no equal value for Bryant in a trade. And the Lakers weren't interested in conducting a fire sale. So when rumors got out of hand on Wednesday, involving virtually every player on the Bulls' roster, Paxson knew he had to do what he did Thursday.
> 
> "It's time to put it to rest," Paxson said. "Today sends a message that our guys don't have to worry about anything anymore."


http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/fullcourtpress/2007/11/it-was-the-righ.html


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## someone

Griffen, PJ Brown, Victor, and a future first for Kobe straight up


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## lougehrig

MikeDC said:


> This deal really seems like it's got potential to me. The only real snag I see is whether Phoenix will be willing to take on Wallace's contract and go for broke for a championship this year.


You can imagine how much Phoenix would love to win a championship and deny San Antonio and Dallas while they are in their primes. This deal would get them really close.


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## rosenthall

Golly, it'd be hard to pass up that trade. The only thing that makes me doubt it will happen is that I don't think it's a great trade for Phoenix. I actually don't think Ben Wallace is a very good fit on the Suns. He's a good defender, but a guy who absolutely can't make shots hurts their spacing too much. If it was the Ben Wallace of 5 years ago, I'd say he might be good enough on defense that it wouldn't matter, but I don't think Big Ben's game brings that kind of heat anymore. And Shawn Marion is a better player than he is anyways.

But if Steve Kerr wants to go through some rookie GMing pains, I'd be happy to let him learn on us.


----------



## such sweet thunder

GB said:


> KC Johnson says Pax did the right thing:
> 
> 
> 
> http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/fullcourtpress/2007/11/it-was-the-righ.html


I'm sure someone else has written this here, but the "right" thing to do, if he really wanted to end the rumors was re-up Ben and Luol for fair market value.


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## McBulls

liekomgj4ck said:


> Griffen, PJ Brown, Victor, and a future first for Kobe straight up


Paxson is now on record that he would not have agreed to that trade.
I leave it to you to figure out why.


----------



## narek

Brian Hanley started out the radio show saying how people like Chris Sheridan was telling Deng that Kobe was on his way to New Jersey, and Hanley (and I assume the other beat writers) were telling the Bulls players that it was all garbage.


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## mizenkay

such sweet thunder said:


> I'm sure someone else has written this here, but the "right" thing to do, if he really wanted to end the rumors was re-up Ben and Luol for fair market value.




thank you.

and for the record, i voted *no* in the poll. just don't ever see it. and don't think it'd be a good thing. but, on the same note, if wallace were to get traded, he'd get to wear his headband again. 

:|





LOL *GB* on the e-rob shout-out. good times. those sweaters were special.


----------



## Eternal

mizenkay said:


> thank you.
> 
> and for the record, i voted *no* in the poll. just don't ever see it. and don't think it'd be a good thing. but, on the same note, if wallace were to get traded, he'd get to wear his headband again.
> 
> :|
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL *GB* on the e-rob shout-out. good times. those sweaters were special.


Wallace can already wear his headband with the Bulls.


----------



## GB

Agent Zero on Kobe, Bulls, etc...

(dig further for the Tim Thomas quote)



> When I mentioned the trade requests of Kobe Bryant, with whom Arenas was linked in a recently rumored proposal that was instantly shot down by the Wizards, he shut his eyes and shook his head, tsk, tsk.
> 
> "I don't understand that,'' Arenas said. "I don't understand a player like him sometimes.''
> 
> How so?
> 
> "One, you want to get traded because you don't like your team, you don't think your team's good enough,'' Arenas said. "But any team you go to, they're going to have to get rid of a whole bunch of players for you, which basically puts you back in the same situation -- just in a different city. I don't know how a player doesn't see that. If he just doesn't like the organization, then I understand that. *But you hear the Chicago rumors: If they had to get rid of Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, [Andres] Nocioni -- that's your whole nucleus. Now you're stuck with Kirk Hinrich, you, Joe Smith, 'Kim Noah, Ben Wallace. That's great defense, but offensively you're going to be doing the same thing you were doing before.
> 
> "So it's like your situation is not changing. Unless somebody's going to trade you a one-for-one player, he's not going to be in a happy situation there either.*
> 
> "I've never seen [Michael] Jordan act like that. I didn't even see AI [Allen Iverson], when he was going through them bad days, you know? They were always talking about trading him, and he was like, 'If they trade me, they trade me; if they don't, they don't; but this is my city.' And I don't understand how Kobe doesn't feel that about L.A. -- it's his city.''
> 
> According to a fellow All-Star, then, Bryant is wrong to think he would be better off elsewhere.
> 
> "With the Lakers, he's always going to have the opportunity to attract players. A free agent is willing to go to a Laker uniform. Everybody wants to go to L.A. -- KG would want to go there,'' Arenas said of Kevin Garnett. "Jason Kidd would want to go there. Jason Kidd is up next season, right? He's a free agent [in 2009]. Why don't you wait? Maybe he'll just come over there. You never know.''


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/ian_thomsen/11/02/arenas/index.html


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