# T-Mac is training, what's Vince doing?



## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

"McGrady is approaching the 2004-2005 season with a seriousness that must have the Rockets thrilled. During the week, he lifts weights in the morning and plays basketball in the afternoon, then goes to a local high school track to run in the evening -- often after dark. "This is as hard as I've ever worked out in my life,'' he said one night last week on his way home from the track. "But to get to the next level -- which I plan to do -- it's got to be done. I do feel bad for the fans here in Orlando. They're going to miss something really special.'' When McGrady talks of the next level, he isn't referring to anymore scoring titles or all-star appearances or even any All-NBA first-team awards. He's done all those, even though at age 25, he is just entering his physical prime."

This is the kind of training that gets fans, coaches, management, and ownership excited when they have a player like this on their club. I brought this up because I havn't seen one article in the papers that suggests that Vince Carter is doing some hard training for the upcoming season. All I read so far is that he's been chilling in Florida, getting married and then going on his multi-week honeymoon, and then coming back and doing a what is now a pathetic VC Charity Game.

Comments? Thoughts?


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

Vince Carter dont need exercise... :laugh:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Arent the 2 close though, am sure Vince knows what T-mac is doing. But anyways just cause T-mac happens to tell the media what he is doing, doesnt mean other players arent doing the same


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## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> Arent the 2 close though, am sure Vince knows what T-mac is doing. But anyways just cause T-mac happens to tell the media what he is doing, doesnt mean other players arent doing the same


I guess.. but two years ago in the offseason the Toronto media were all over Carter and Davis with compliments how they're training daily in Florida.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Sulking. Playing NBA Live 2004, Vince trades himself to the Knicks for Allan Houston. Getting daily updates from his agent on other teams' interest in him. Depression has set in since he is hearing daily how no team is making a substantial offer for him. Eating chicken McNuggets to drown his sorrows. Groomly duties . Salivating over the prospect of Madden 2005 on August 11. Shooting a Gatorade commercial for the new season. Meeting with Nike for approval of the look of his next shoe. Talking to Nav about buying a new Santa Fe to add to his princely collection of autos. And maybe a game of horse with mom.


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> Sulking. Playing NBA Live 2004, Vince trades himself to the Knicks for Allan Houston. Getting daily updates from his agent on other teams' interest in him. Depression has set in since he is hearing daily how no team is making a substantial offer for him. Eating chicken McNuggets to drown his sorrows. Groomly duties . Salivating over the prospect of Madden 2005 on August 11. Shooting a Gatorade commercial for the new season. Meeting with Nike for approval of the look of his next shoe. Talking to Nav about buying a new Santa Fe to add to his princely collection of autos. And maybe a game of horse with mom.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

The only exercise he is likely getting involves his lovely new bride....The one with the brains and the cahones in the relationship


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## Apollo (Jun 3, 2004)

Even if we did hear about Vince doing any off season exercise, how many of you would believe him anyway?  

Since most people have already made up their mind that Vince is 1) a decent athlete who does work out in the offseason but doesn't do it publically enough to get attention like Shaq and McGrady; or 2) is a bum who does nothing all offseason, shows up automatically in the shape that he's in and mails it in after that, what's the point of getting any more information? :laugh:


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DAllatt</b>!
> 
> 
> he only exercise he is likely getting involves his lovely new bride....The one with the brains and the cahones in the relationship


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

Yah I'm a bigger VC fan than I am a T-Mac fan (seriously, even if he is in Houston I still like Vince better, for now anyway...), but even I gotta admit it doesn't seem like Vince is doing much to prepare himself for next season... he's more concerned about getting traded than playing at a high level again.

And this isn't the first time I heard about T-Mac's training this offseason too, I've been hearing about it from other sources as well.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kirk_2003</b>!
> Vince Carter dont need exercise... :laugh:


You will see skinny Curry to play basketball soon.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

You notice how he can never play a full game? For at least one or two quarters, it's like he's sleeping out there.. Although the stat sheet isn't the most important thing to look at, just take a glance and see how Vince's points are distributed.. There are a few games where you will see something like :
1st: 15
2nd: 5
3rd: 2
4th:6

Talk about cooling down.. Other games you may see 10 in two quarters, and 2 a peice in the others.. This guy rarely plays a full game.. When you see a guy struggling to breathe near the end of games, you know something is wrong.. 
Whether he admits or not, he's out of shape and needs to hire a personal trainer, or get someone who can push him to start working out and getting back to shape...


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## TOballer (Aug 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jcintosun911</b>!
> You notice how he can never play a full game? For at least one or two quarters, it's like he's sleeping out there.. Although the stat sheet isn't the most important thing to look at, just take a glance and see how Vince's points are distributed.. There are a few games where you will see something like :
> 1st: 15
> 2nd: 5
> ...


good point...what bothers me tho is that vince supposedly doesnt work a lot on his game and hes already this good....if he worked on his game like other elite players imagine where hed be...thats what i fear, him turning into a monster once we trade him.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i agree that he's out of shape, and i also agree in the sense that he needs to restructure his priorities. i don't know why he doesn't train (hard), i don't think it's as simple as vince being "lazy", but i can't even speculate as to another reason. it's almost that he's "lazy" (or something similar) by default.

i think players like tracy and kobe (and even lebron) have other problems, but i think their commitment to train incessantly indicates a superstar's "character trait", a will to compete that can carry a team. i've only read interviews with vince on the subject, but it seems like he's going for all the convenient excuses to justify not hitting the gym in the summer- it's almost as if he's trying to convince _himself_. and as long as you do that (or he does it), i imagine it's going to make the situation worse for your team (the raptors).

it's the stars who embrace the reality of their worlds; it's the stars who accept the difficult tasks that are thrown only on them, and not on (for instance) the 12th man on the bench. vince seems to recurrently put himself on his teammates' level when he WANTS to, when it's convenient for him, and then put himself on his own level when he wants to do _that_- not necessarily when he _*should*_.

there are reasons why he *should* be training harder than his teammates, not the least of which is the financial investment made in him by his franchise- and the salary payments he continues to receive on a bi-weekly basis. it might not be fair that the fans ask him to go _harder_ than his teammates, but he's more important than his teammates (to his franchise) and is being paid accordingly. 

i don't know who all of vince's handlers are, but i imagine they look out for what they perceive to be "his best interests" far too often. he seems to be a man who is living in his own world, who makes decisions according to his own, very personal and very biased agenda. that's fine if you ARE living in your own world, but when you're an athlete, it's more complex than that- you are being compensated in a variety of different areas and, in exchange for that ample compensation, are being asked to devote your career/life to athletics. 

vince seems to overlook this last point, has been doing precisely that in so many ways (for such a long time), and i'd probably put it past him to resolve that personality complex at this stage in his career.

peace


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Like Apollo said even if Vince came out and said he was training seriously, i doubt anyone on this forum would take him seriously, considering the fact that most of you have already made your decision on Vince. But am pretty sure Vince is going to be playing harder come the start of the season, going by the fact that he wants to up his trade value and get out of the raptors


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## trees (Jun 11, 2003)

:starwars:


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## KeonBackinTO (May 26, 2003)

Is it just me or does VC seems alot like Ricky Williams. Great talent that lacks passion.

But you can't really blame the guy if he doesn't try or care, he's got himself a great life and hes trying to enjoy it while he can.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

> But you can't really blame the guy if he doesn't try or care, he's got himself a great life and hes trying to enjoy it while he can.


Actually I can.

But I can understand why someone with a KeonClark username might not agree.

Let me throw out some mad props to Hbwoy again as well.

I swear, you could take a story about VC getting herpes from a transexual prostitute and spin it into the feelgood story of the year.

You have a future in PR. Vince should hire you right away.

Or you could be a lawyer because you can always see the other side of an argument. Something that I can relate to.

(Dirty little secret- if this board was 90% anti-Vince I would be taking on your role just for the fun of it.)


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> Like Apollo said even if Vince came out and said he was training seriously, i doubt anyone on this forum would take him seriously, considering the fact that most of you have already made your decision on Vince.


vince was allegedly training hard last summer, and if you were to go back on these boards, you'd see much credit given to vince for his commitment to get stronger, get better and be healthier (and even _lead by example_). of course, who knows how hard he was _really_ training? it's one thing to spend dennis rodman-like hours at the gym, it's another to get props from doug smith. it may have just been exaggerated, but the point is that the fans here (on the whole) were more than willing to give vince some credit for hitting the gym last year.

by all accounts, he's not doing the same thing _this_ year, and is therefore (rightfully- imo) not getting the same reaction. some people may indeed be looking for an excuse to hate on vince, but that doesn't excuse the fact that the man is apparently not doing much (is not even _interested_ in doing much) to get better for 2004/05.

peace


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> I swear, you could take a story about VC getting herpes from a transexual prostitute and spin it into the feelgood story of the year.


Line of the _____ year!!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ballocks</b>!
> 
> 
> vince was allegedly training hard last summer, and if you were to go back on these boards, you'd see much credit given to vince for his commitment to get stronger, get better and be healthier (and even _lead by example_). of course, who knows how hard he was _really_ training? it's one thing to spend dennis rodman-like hours at the gym, it's another to get props from doug smith. it may have just been exaggerated, but the point is that the fans here (on the whole) were more than willing to give vince some credit for hitting the gym last year.
> ...


I thought it was quite the opposite last year. I thought we were all disappointed that Vince was training harder, getting bigger/stronger. He decided to go back to what had worked for him in the past- playing some ball. He was also doing some boxing or something in that vein. I just don't remember a huge dedication from him last offseason in the gym. However, I do know that he came into training camp in excellent shape.

However, I think he'll suprise us this season. He's been healthy for some time so he doesn't have to worry about rehabbing. He's been busy with marriage but I'm sure he has a pretty solid training regiment. This is a big, big year for his career and he needs to get it back on track.


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## mavhaz (Nov 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> Line of the _____ year!!
> ...


i agree had me rolling for a few minutes


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> 
> 
> But I can understand why someone with a KeonClark username might not agree.
> ...



:laugh: 
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

who cares what t-mac doing geez some of you guys sweat vince nuts TOO HARD wanna monitor his every day offseason move then sit back critasise(sp) him "oh hes out of shape, he has no will, waaaa waaa waaaa" and were not even in training camp peeps need to chill out a bit and watch how things play themselfs out


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> who cares what t-mac doing geez some of you guys sweat vince nuts TOO HARD wanna monitor his every day offseason move then sit back critasise(sp) him "oh hes out of shape, he has no will, waaaa waaa waaaa" and were not even in training camp peeps need to chill out a bit and watch how things play themselfs out


Are you sure your 19?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> who cares what t-mac doing geez some of you guys sweat vince nuts TOO HARD wanna monitor his every day offseason move then sit back critasise(sp) him "oh hes out of shape, he has no will, waaaa waaa waaaa" and were not even in training camp peeps need to chill out a bit and watch how things play themselfs out


I kinda fall into this category as well. I don't think it is smart to attack a player's off-season routine when we have so little information to go on.

Obviously Vince had a lot to do this summer, what with the wedding, the charity game, avoiding the media, etc.. But that's over now. None of us really know how hard he is working this summer.

And another thing--T-Mac and Shaq and Eddy Curry have a lot to gain by publicising their workout routines. Even if they are only slightly more strenuous or extreme than the typical NBAer (many of these guys are true gym rats and weight freaks!), they are doing a lot of positive PR by saying "I'm working really hard," "this is the most I've ever trained," "I want to be in the top shape of my career," etc..

There is a subtle elegance to the way Chris Bosh has gone about the off-season. He arguably needs to gain more strength and weight than any young forward in the league. But is he weighing himself daily and reporting it to the paper? Is he telling the media how many calories he is consuming by the hour?

No. He is keeping his nose to the grindstone, he isn't fretting about his weight, his agent isn't telling Doug Smith to glorify him in an article like he's Lance Armstrong fresh off the arduous cancer treatments trying to make it big for his country.

Blah. Nobody here knows Vince's off-season routine. No sense in attacking that aspect of his game by taking his character attributes and parlaying them into assumptions. Last year he tried to go old-school and treat his body the way he treated it in college and in his entry years in the NBA. He wound-up playing 70+ games and doing pretty well for himself, IMO. If he's doing the same this summer, IF, and the results are the same, who are we to question him?


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> 
> 
> I kinda fall into this category as well. I don't think it is smart to attack a player's off-season routine when we have so little information to go on.
> ...


exactly its like ppl want a report everytime vince does a sit up it just get tyring to see ppl jumping on vince all the time ......hey we ain't hear any thing about KG,paul perice,or J-o'neal working out this off season lets jump on them while were at it  the whole thing stupid best thing to do is wait till camp and watch a few pre-season games then judge


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Look, there is obviously not a lot of meat to this topic.

Vince COULD be working out extremely hard somewhere.

But it is extremely interesting that we DO know what all those other people are doing.

Bosh - Was working out in Texas with Kurt Thomas. We knew those plans long ago.

Pierce - Was just at the exclusive NBA camp run by Newell or something. Big article in Boston papers on that camp and all the NBAers there.

Maggette and Brand - are regulars at Grovers gym in the offseason along with many NBA guys.

Eddie Curry - is being closely monitored by the Bulls and they know everything he does.

Jamal Crawford - was making news by not going to the Berto Center to work out.

JO - couldn't go to the Olympics due to an injury and is rehabbing and working out.

KG - may be the hardest worker in the league. No worries there.

TMac bulked up last offseason putting on lots of muscle. Kobe did that the summer before. Shaq's personal trainer is known.

There is SOMETHING to the argument that we don't know what VC is doing. Likely because he isn't doing much. It's not concrete proof, but it is disturbing for those of us who want VC to strengthen his body to hold up for a full season. 

He was on the FAN himself in past offseasons talking about his bike riding around Toronto and his boxing workouts. Didn't touch a basketball until the Olympic qualifying tournament. So he didn't spend any time adding elements to his game such as a low post game that would make his life easier.

His workouts in Orlando with AD and some of the Raptors saw him going against Milt Palacio every day. He was so impressed he pushed GG to sign him.

But at least we knew what he was doing.

If VC really wants a trade and is excited about going to a new team you would think he would be working out harder than ever and letting those other teams know it.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> 
> 
> If VC really wants a trade and is excited about going to a new team you would think he would be working out harder than ever and letting those other teams know it.


teams not media


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

and who are we to demand what vince does in the offseason none of our names on his pay check


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Like someone said earlier, the man played 70+games last year thats a vast improvement he must have done something right, if I were him I'd stick to the same routine


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

The 'same routine' would have included playing high level bball with the US national team and then working out with teammates in Orlando.

Don't see that happening.

And as for:


> and who are we to demand what vince does in the offseason none of our names on his pay check


That is not the point at all. The point is that a superstar should be INTERNALLY DRIVEN to improve. 

And somebody DOES sign his cheque. What about VC's loyalty to the organization that gave him such a huge contract and has suffered through 2 injury plagued seasons with him? Maybe he should feel an obligation towards them to get his butt in peak physical and mental condition.

And finally, the FANS are the ones who made VC a media darling. The FANS are the ones who make it possible for him to get the commercials, the video game covers, the book deal, and even his own charity. Without the fans he is nothing.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^I'll agree with you on that one lucky, Vince does need someone or something to ignite a fire in his behind once more, the fans want to see that Vince again and he should be trying as hard as possible to give them that. But like I said in an earlier post, I hope the fact that he wants out of the raps makes him more hungry to prove to other teams that he still has it going for him


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## Apollo (Jun 3, 2004)

Bottom line, in my opinion, most of this, if not all of it, is pure speculation. We know Bosh SAID he was going to work out with Kurt Thomas in Texas a while ago and then he showed up to summer league and said himself that he was out of shape....that he hadn't played any basketball up until then...I point this out not to bash Bosh but to say that a player's summer regimen is completely unknown to any of us. We hear what people say through agents, and what they say to the media. For some of us, hearing it is enough...that doesn't make it true. We assume because a player like KG plays with passion, he's obviously a hard worker and is nuts about working out in the summer. I haven't heard anything about what he's doing this summer at all. That doesn't mean he's not doing anything. It just means I don't know what he's doing.

I'm disturbed that we're not hearing anything about Vince too. I would love it if we heard all these accounts of him at different camps and testimonials from other players saying how hard he was working. We haven't heard that. Does that mean it's not happening? No. It just means it isn't being reported. It's a HUGE leap to say that he's lazy or isn't doing anything or doesn't deserve his contract just because you haven't heard about him shooting 1000 jumpers a day like Kobe did a couple summers ago. Everything we say here is based on what we've heard. There's zero support for any of it. If Vince shows up this October and is in horrible shape and plays like it, then obviously you'll be able to say all you want about how he didn't prepare in the off season. If he suddenly shows up in amazing shape and plays out of his mind, what's going to happen then? Are we going to say "Wow, he really must have hit the weights hard this offseason"? We won't know whether any of the things he's done or isn't doing this summer is going to pay off until camp and the season start.

Now, if we had a quote directly from him that said he wasn't doing jack all this summer because he was too busy getting married, etc. then I would back up all the bashing. If we had a quote from him breaking down his daily regimen then I would back up all the support. I haven't seen either, so I'm hesitant to comment either way. I will say though that if you're bashing or supporting Vince now, as long as you are willing to change your opinion when we have more proof one way or the other, I got no problem with you.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> 
> 
> And finally, the FANS are the ones who made VC a media darling. The FANS are the ones who make it possible for him to get the commercials, the video game covers, the book deal, and even his own charity. Without the fans he is nothing.


so that gives us the right to monitor his every move right?


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> The 'same routine' would have included playing high level bball with the US national team and then working out with teammates in Orlando.


but if he got hurt overseas you be singing a different tune as for this INTERNALLY DRIVEN thing would you get up for a season if your team was trash every team in your division making moves but yours come on man if you wanna keep him motavated(if thats the problem) then make better moves to put them over the hump I like what the raps have done so far but theres a few things they done that really had me  but I won't get into it in this thread


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

So, according to Mr_B, Vince does not owe the Raptor organization or his fans an honest effort to make himself the best player possible.

He just has to show up for practices and games. Other than that we should have no expectations of him.

And, according to Mr_B, it is unfair to expect VC to care about getting in shape for the season because the rest of the team is 'trash'.

Rose is trash. Bosh is trash. Marshall is trash. MoP is trash. Alvin is trash. Again, according to Mr_B. I suppose you already know that Bonner and Araujo are trash too?

I wonder if Vince mentioned these things during contract negotiations?

The Bucks didn't need a team of all-stars to get into the playoffs. Neither did the Heat. Or the Knicks. Even Philly, the Cavs, and the Celtics had better years than us and they struggled with horrible trades and injuries.

Would VC be motivated if he switched places with Michael Redd?

None of those teams have talent that overwhelms the Raps roster. If VC is all that and a bag of chips he should be the difference maker that puts us ahead of all those teams. He is in his prime, has the experience, and there is no doubt that it is HIS team.

What exactly is the excuse Mr_B?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

i don't understand this.

just because there are no reports of VC's workout being printed on the paper you just assume that he's not doing anything? you're assuming that he's just sitting at home playing nba live 2004 in his room with his wife?

i don't know about you but i believe in the 'no news is good news' motto.

but i guess you want him to be as hard working as kobe, or as intense in his nba duties like garnett?  too many comparisons for my taste. 

ibi'mjustmakingexcuses


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I dont get your arguement tho Lucky, what if Vince does step his game up, what about his teammates, look lets be honest Vince is the only one on that team that is actually consistent day in day out, we all know what to expect from Vince and that is 20+ points, can he do better sure? but like you pointed out to Milwaukee its a team effort, Vince deserves some blame but lets also take a look at who he was playing with.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> I dont get your arguement tho Lucky, what if Vince does step his game up, what about his teammates, look lets be honest Vince is the only one on that team that is actually consistent day in day out, we all know what to expect from Vince and that is 20+ points, can he do better sure? but like you pointed out to Milwaukee its a team effort, Vince deserves some blame but lets also take a look at who he was playing with.


err, i have to disagree with you there.

before the ending stages of last season vince wasn't your prototypical consistent player like marshall was. sometimes he'd get you 26, and then there are times when he'd get 16. 

but like what you said, it's a tem effort. sometimes we wouldn't need vc to score 20+ every night in order to get a win. this team has alot of scorers than ever and with mitch's run-and-gun system, you wouldn't need one person to necessarily be the highest scorer of your team all the time.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Hbwoy,

My point was this.

Look at those other teams that finished ahead of us. Look at their rosters. Look at the injuries they suffered. Look at the lack of a superstar that Vince is supposed to be. Look at how the Celts tore themselves apart with bad trades. They all beat us with a healthy Vince.

Now compare our roster and tell me that a true superstar should not have gotten that team into the playoffs. Instead we win 25 out of 66 games. We lose 49 of 66.

We were not overmatched by any of those teams. Tell me that Magic, Jordan, Bird, Barkley or any real superstar wouldn't have done better with this team. Look what a 40 year old Jordan did for the Wiz.

Vince - supposed superstar
Rose - legit second option, vocal leader
Marshall - almost a 20/10 guy with Raps
Bosh - in a normal year could have been ROY
MoP - 6th man, good D and 3pt shooter
Alvin - low TO's and decent scorer. Clutch.

Plus we had enough big men to provide D and rebounding with Bax, Arch, Moiso, Blount. And had scoring option of Murray and a slasher like MasonJr. 

Coach misused the bench and overplayed starters. The only big negative.

But Vince is an inefficient scorer. Takes a lot of shots to get his points and doesn't get to the FT line for easy points. Plus he doesn't have that feel for the flow of a game to know when his team needs him to carry the scoring load.

Vince scored a lot of points late in games when the Raps were already down 15, or down 8 with 3 minutes to play. A superstar has to prevent the game from getting out of reach.

Not by scoring 40 very often. but by scoring his 20-26 at the right times and getting his teammates to up their games and play with more intensity. By making defensive stops and getting those long rebounds.

You do this in practice. You do it in pre-game. You create a culture of hard work and demand that your teammates work as hard as you do at these times.

It would take a whole book to explain all the tiny things that combine to make a true superstar.

But one huge characteristice is:

They don't make excuses. They just win.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol my fav anti-vince poster, lucky. I really must compliment you though, you do bring up some valid points but as you know by now I am one of the biggest Vince fans on here and more than not I usually am sticking up for Vince. 



> Look at those other teams that finished ahead of us. Look at their rosters. Look at the injuries they suffered. Look at the lack of a superstar that Vince is supposed to be. Look at how the Celts tore themselves apart with bad trades. They all beat us with a healthy Vince.


Oh come on the Raps were like 2 or 3 games out of the playoffs, its not like we were that terrible a team. Please lets not forget that when injuries didnt strike, we were the 5th best team in the east. As bad as the Celts were, they had a reliable point guard and a very good center in Blount. Both of which the Raps had problems in filling last season.



> But Vince is an inefficient scorer. Takes a lot of shots to get his points and doesn't get to the FT line for easy points. Plus he doesn't have that feel for the flow of a game to know when his team needs him to carry the scoring load.


Vince does have off nights, heck who doesnt. But I will disagree with you on the fact that he doesnt have a flow of the game, Vince sees the court and game better than anyone on the team, the fact that he defers to other teammates happens to be his downfall, I can recall numerous times where he turned it on in the 4th and saved the team from many a loss. Heck T-mac scores points all the time and his team still loses, anyone going to argue that T-mac isnt a superstar?

I'll agree wit ya on the fact that winners dont make excuses, they just win. I really hope Vince can do that again, he would save a lot of people time from making all this what if threads


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

This may surprise you but I would not trade VC for TMac straight up. Unless the plan was to trade TMac and get better value in return.

TMac is on a slightly higher level than VC in terms of production. But I think he has more severe mental issues than VC. His ego knows no bounds and he essentially quit on his team last season and sat out a number of games he didn't have to.

I certainly would not put TMac in the all-time great category just yet. But he is still 25 and could develop a better mental approach.

So why is TMac valued so much higher around the league.

1. Age: Only 25 vs. Vince at 27
2. Size: Bigger and stronger than VC
3. Efficiency: #6 in league, VC is #34
4. Rebounds: 6-7 per game, VC 5
5. Total FTA's: Ranks #7, VC #27 while playing 6 more games.
6. Assists: 5.5 over last 3 years, Vince was 4.8 last year but never over 4 before that.


McGrady is perceived as selfish but has career high 13 assist 4 times while VC's high is 12 and only 2 times. Also has much higher assist/game over last 3 years. Higher than VC has ever gotten. Hasn't exactly had a stellar supporting cast.

McGrady has also worked very hard on his body and his game since he came into the league. He and AD were close and he listened to his advice.

But with all this I still wouldn't want TMac as our only star. He should be a lock down defender, was in Toronto, but just doesn't bother anymore. Constantly whines about and calls out his players in the media making them feel like crap and dividing the team. Always speaking about himself as such a star.

We could be a slightly better team with TMac instead of VC but his personality could also destroy the team. Plus he is about to get a HUGE max extension and has back problems, which never go away.

Is he a superstar? By todays standards, yes. But not even close to the Jordan, Magic, Bird level. Maybe not even Dominique Wilkens.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Good breakdown of T-mac but from all the contrasting I got from your post, it all boils down to the fact that VC is a better team player and a leader, I know some will like to argue the fact that Vince isnt a good leader, but just because you dont get into player's faces doesnt mean you arent the leader, heck Tim Duncan doesnt get into anyone's face and I'd be hardpresses to find someone say he isnt the leader of that team


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Vince may be a slightly better teammate, but not any more of a team player. The difference being one is off the court and one is on the court.

Someone could say Vince is a bad teammate right now because he is essentially criticizing his boys and saying they aren't good enough for him to play with.

And McGrady's rebounding and assists and overall efficiency make him a better team player on the court.

As for TD, he is a fierce competitor and does get in teammates faces. He scores much less than he could in order to keep his teammates involved and he accepts the full responsibility of being a leader at both ends of the court. He anchors their D, gets the key rebounds, and scores when his team really needs the score. Inside and outside game. The Spurs rally around TD and have total respect for him. Won't hear former Spurs badmouth TD.

VC is not at that level.


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## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

I am not so sure that the problem is in Vince Carter alone. Just take a look at the Celtics last season. Without a question the Raptors had a better team on paper than the Celtics had - and both teams had their own superstar, Carter and Pierce. But yet, even though the Raps had the "better" team on paper, the Celtics had a more successful season with 36 wins and 46 losses and managed to sneak into the playoffs. 

The same can be said about the Cavaliers. Who would have said that James' Cavs would have more wins than Carter's Raptors before the season began? Last summer nobody would have thought that the Cavs would win over 30 games. But again, they surprised everyone and went on to a 35-47 record.

Other teams in this category of going beyond what was expected of them are New York, Milwaukee, and Miami.

So why is it that teams like these can be better than our Raptors? We're talking about teams that actually lack a real superstar. The Raptors have Vince Carter, and supposedly a solid supporting cast, but yet, they managed to miss the playoffs again.

My point is that even though I don't like Vince Carter all that much anymore, some people tend to put the blame on him. If we have a better overall line-up than the earlier teams that I mentioned then how is it that our team cannot make the playoffs or even win 50 per cent of its games, and teams like Miami, Milwaukee, New York, Boston, and Cleveland can surpass all expectations and go farther than expected?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

The problem is definitely NOT Vince Carter alone. I don't know anyone who says that.

That is why just exchanging Vince with a star from another team can only improve us slightly and not make us a contender by any means.


But that is separate from the point that both you and I have just made Slasher. That point being that the Raps underachieved compared to teams like Miami, Boston, Philly, Milwaukee, NY, and maybe the Cavs. (I personally think the Cavs underachieved at the end of the season and were a pretty balanced team.)

And that is exactly why Vince should get some criticism. Our team, on paper, was probably the best squad since our one playoff series victory. KO has to take some of the blame but the effort and intensity of the players seldom matched that of the coach.

If Vince truly is the special player that he and some of his fans believe then he definitely should have gotten that club into the playoffs or at least to a .500 record.

When has he had guys with the production of Rose and Marshall to play with before? Bosh's numbers were tremendous for a rook.

Instead of separating himself from the second tier stars like PP, AI, Dirk, Peja, Houston, Hamilton, Maggette, Starbury, Francis, Lebron, Carmelo, Parker, Finley, etc, etc, etc Vince has started to just blend into that group and not proven himself to be an elite player that people like ME assumed he would become.

VC is not on the level of Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, or Kidd. No scoring titles, no MVP's, no playoff runs. Just the endorsements and celebrity status.

TMac is in a limbo between these 2 groups. Clearly superior to the lower group but not proven enough to be in the top group.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Vince did not have a good supporting cast.

we had a wannabe PG and an untested C as part of the starting lineup, and as the weeks went by with Mo Pete eventually cracking the starting lineup, we had no bench players.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

With a supporting cast last season VC was doing just fine. It was only when we lost AW and JR that the season went down the drain. Pretrade, with a horrible offensive unit, VC was leading the charge on both ends of the court and getting his fair share of wins.

Our team, on paper, that collapsed, was absolutely abysmal.

http://www.nba.com/games/20040212/TORSEA/boxscore.html

this is the lineup we put on the court when things started going downhill, we were doing just fine beforehand.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Look at the lineup that beat us. Tell me that the Sonics lineup was 20 points better than the Raps lineup that night.

You know that's not true.

If MoP sucks why did we just give him 5 mill?
Alvin put up 20 points in that game on 12 shots.
Marshall - ONLY 16 and 17
Bosh- looks like he injured himself that game
Murray - went 3 for5
MoP - didn't do much in 40 minutes except rebound
Curry - played 20 minutes (damn KO)

Team rebounding was very good.

Who let us down that game? VC.
Vince shoots 8 for 21 with only 2 FTA's and 3 rebounds. And of course no D. That's our superstar?

Ray Allen outplayed VC. Shot 50%, 8 FTA's, 4 rebounds, and 23 points to VC's 19.

The facts do not support your excuse about injuries derailing our team. Philly was decimated with injuries. Boston was decimated by bad trades. Miami had no PG, no C, and no depth. NY was pieced together 20 times and lost Houston to injury down the stretch. (and supposedly NY has nothing we would even want)

Take away that 5 game win streak right after the trade and the Raps went 20-41. That's pathetic and no true superstar would let his team lose like that.


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## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

Like I said before Vince isn't the only one to blame for the Raptors' downfall, but I also cannot think of any other individual to blame - the team as a whole is the problem.

The poor results last season had to do with terrible chemistry between the players. Forget about the talent on paper for a second. When I saw teams such as Dallas, Sacramento, Denver, and Milwaukee play last season the games were actually <i>fun</i> to watch - and I am not a fan of those teams at all. Now imagine this - if you were not a Raptors fan would you actually watch the garbage product they put on the floor nightly? Probably not. 

NBA fans that are not Raptors fans probably turn the channel and watch something else rather than watch the Raps last season. The team just lacks that "fun" factor you look in sports. 

The Milwaukee Bucks never had an all-star line-up, and as a matter of fact they had a terrible line-up on paper; T.J. Ford, Michael Redd, Desmond Mason, Joe Smith, and Dan Gadzuric don't normally attract that much attention. What Milwaukee did have is great team chemistry, great athletes, and a great passion for the game.

When the Raptors players choose to come out of their shell and <i>actually play basketball</i> then maybe they'll have a shot at the playoffs. Vince Carter should see some tapes of the Bucks playing last year to see what team basketball is all about.

Let's home that Sam Mitchell just brings the same passion to the Raptors that he was teaching as an assistant in Milwaukee the past two seasons.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> So, according to Mr_B, Vince does not owe the Raptor organization or his fans an honest effort to make himself the best player possible.
> 
> He just has to show up for practices and games. Other than that we should have no expectations of him.
> ...


thanks for misreading :krazy:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

> VC is not on the level of Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, or Kidd. No scoring titles, no MVP's, no playoff runs. Just the endorsements and celebrity status.


You might want to compare teams this players were playing on to the Raps, we had a pretty good starting lineup, visibly no C and no proven PG, our bench was terrible and we had to deal with injuries, sure why not blame Vince for not somehow leading this team to the playoffs


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> Look at the lineup that beat us. Tell me that the Sonics lineup was 20 points better than the Raps lineup that night.
> 
> You know that's not true.
> ...


I was at that game and not happy with Vince or the Raptors. First time I saw them live in 4 years or so. But the lineup is right there- a hurting AW that was soon to crumble as well and nadda at center. Vince had an aweful game and still got his 19. A horrible performance on his part? Of course? Did this lineup (and coach) give Vince good shots? No, they didn't. 

The lineup got WORSE from here on in. That's the point. Vince was leading us into the playoffs before the LINEUP fell apart.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

So Vince gets all the credit for us winning (you just said he was leading us to the playoffs) but should accept NO responsibility for an underachieving season?

Let me say this one more time because Vince lovers seem to be incapable of understanding this:

*Vince is NOT TO BLAME for us being a bad team. Because he IS NOT THE SUPERSTAR we thought he was or could become.* 

*He is a VERY GOOD player. But NOT a guy that can make a team great or overachieve. He isn't in that class. Few are.* 

If he was a true SuperStar we would have been in the playoffs last year. Truth.

*So he is NOT TO BLAME for our problems, but IS NOT THE SOLUTION for our team that will never be able to put all the talent around him that a player of his level needs to succeed.* 

There are only 2 alternatives. Either I am right and we overrate Vince, OR he underachieves. Because the team around him is not a 33 win team and you can't expect to go through a whole season without injury.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

He underacheives IMO. He always complains that the team needs a better supporting cast and what not, and that the they should have a win now mentality, but what has he done to help the team win? He doesn't workout on the offseason, he doesn't try to improve his game, I don't know if it's because he's lazy or for some other unknown reason, but he just doesn't put out the effort on and off the court, and it's not only showing in his game, but also in the team's performance aswell...


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Sky, I am glad you admit that VC had a horrible game.

But you didn't admit, yet, that the Sonics lineup was probably worse than our own.

And then you blame VC's teammates for not getting HIM great shots. I thought HE was the SuperStar and creator for the team? The offense runs through him, no?

The funny thing is that wasn't my link. Someone put that up as supposed proof that the supporting cast sucked and it proved the opposite. It proved that the opposing team sucked worse, that our supporting cast put up solid numbers, and that VC couldn't make a difference in a very winnable game.

Lets look at the games immediately following:

Very next game vs. Bulls:
Marshall 10pts and 24 boards
MoP 19 and 4
Bosh 9 and 7

Damn KO only plays Curry, Milt, and Arch off the bench. Doesn't play Lamond who went 3 for 5 in previous game.

We lose by 1 point and VC puts up ANOTHER below average performance of 21/4/2 shooting 7 of 20. Four TO's

Chicago Sucks.
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Very next game vs. Spurs"
Marshall 18 and 11
Alvin 19 / 5/ 5
Bosh/Arch/Bax 9 and 6 in 32 minutes Bosh hurt.
KO only plays Curry and Palacio any minutes off the bench. No Murray or Moiso again.

Vince? Yet ANOTHER below average game of 22/6/3 although he had to leave late in the game with the ankle sprain on Bowen.
-------------

Vince comes back after a 13 day rest and has a great game against Miami, although he only shoots 10 of 24. Raps win.

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Next game vs Wiz

Vince scores 16 / 4 / 5. ANOTHER below average game.

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Very next game vs. Knicks:

Whole team plays great. Even KO contributes by benching Curry and playing Moiso (a miracle) who puts up 7 and 6 in only 17 minutes.

Vince score 32 and even shoots well 12 of 25. Only 2 boards, but 9 assists.

But Marbury outplays VC in VC's own building. Puts up 35 / 4 / 9. Goes 12 of 21 from the field. More efficient game and looks physically stronger down the stretch playing the same minutes.

Raps lose a very high scoring game.

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Very next game vs. Hornets

VC has a great OVERALL game 26/8/8 and LEADS the Raps to victory. It can be done. It's not about scoring 40.
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Loss to Indy by 10. Solid game VC. KO play Curry big minutes.

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Big game vs. Cavs

Raps lose 106-92

Carter 19/2/3 in still ANOTHER below average game

KO actually plays Moiso for 15 and he gets 8/4/1/1
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Beat Atlanta (whoo-hoo) and VC probably has his most efficient night of the season.

32/5/7 on 13 of 19 shooting.

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Close win against Utah who collapse in the fourth quarter

Vince 24/9/1 on 9 of 20 shooting. Very nice game. Once again he doesn't have to score big for us to win. Just average if he does it efficiently and does the other things.
Two nice games in a row.
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After this we get Jalen and Alvin back. No more excuses.

So did Vince play like a superstar and carry our team for this stretch?

Not by a long shot in my books.

Very good player. Not a superstar.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Let me also bring you Vince bashers back to Earth, sure we as Rap fans expect the world out of Vince and to some he still has not lived up to those expectations, heck we placed those expectations on him. But that excuse about if Vince was a true superstar would lead us into the playoffs doesnt hold weight, if you are going to compare the Garnetts, the Kidds, the Kobes and Shaqs as superstars then once again please go look at the teams this players were on. Lol at a certain point in time wasn't Janero Pargo our starting point guard, heck we had Dion Glover, Rod Strickland, Corie Blount, Robert Archibald as our bench players names that strike fear in the hearts of any team. During the most important strectch of the playoff race, we lost 3 of our 5 starters, by the way that game that the Vince went down at the spurs, if am right we were leading quite comfortably before that accident. I am willing to give Vince this benefit of the doubt, he and his new teammates wont have an excuse this time for not gelling this year, if the raps once again falter then I'll take the lucky777 route


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> I was at that game and not happy with Vince or the Raptors. First time I saw them live in 4 years or so. But the lineup is right there- a hurting AW that was soon to crumble as well and nadda at center. Vince had an aweful game and still got his 19. A horrible performance on his part? Of course? Did this lineup (and coach) give Vince good shots? No, they didn't.
> ...


i don't know, but does anyone actually _remember_ this game (aside from sky)? some of us are looking up _stats_ to see how well the supporting cast played around vince? seriously, does anyone else remember this game?

let me provide a refresher- this was the last game before the all-star break and it was (by all accounts... at the time, anyway) our worst performance of the season. yes, donyell put up 16 and 17, mo grabbed 10 boards, AW put up 20, but i suggest we go back together to see whether any of us thought those players had "good" games (in this case, "games that would help vince carter") at the time. i doubt it.

off the top of my head, i remember chuck saying something along the lines of, "we admire your patience, folks. this team just did not show up to play tonight", with a discussion ensuing that pertained to the raptors' weak work ethic (in general) and how they could ill afford to play that way if they harboured thoughts of qualifying for the playoffs (i think this was just before the raps took a massive nosedive in the standings). 

the game was abysmal. vince carter surely didn't come to play, but neither did anyone else. if you look at the numbers, i guess you wouldn't notice just how tired they were on the floor, but that doesn't mean they _weren't_. it was a disaster. the lack of energy was palpable, the sonics were amused-

it's all behind the numbers.

peace


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

The point here is that Vince did not have a good team to work with down the stretch. Other teams got stronger down the stretch and we got much weaker. Superstar guards can't get win with weak teams in this league, it's as simple as that.


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## esco_rrr (Aug 14, 2004)

*I agree with Skywalker*

I have to agree with SkyWalker... Superstar guards just can't dominate the league like in times past. With shooters at a premium and big men even more so, what can a superstar guard do if he is double and triple teamed because his weak supporting cast can't hit an open jumper (here is looking at you Milt Palacio - Alvin - Every big man minus Bosh, etc...) 

It doesn't help that Carter doesnt take it to the rack or play with any intensity, but that is beside the point. Even if he did, Toronto is no better than an 8th seed eastern conference squad. Vince needs to be the man getting dished the open shot or the drive to the lane. He needs to be a 1b option.

So... since we arent likely to see a 1a anytime soon, we need to mix this ship up. The organziation has to aim higher than "squeezing" into the playoffs.

I love T.O... for real, but Vince just doesnt have what we need. He is cool and all, but I think we took ill advantage of his "angry years" (the last two when he wanted to prove something). A) Partly becaue he was injured, and B) we gave him nothing to work with. 

T-Mac has those angry years ahead... look out for big time ish in Houston, Kobe in LA too. Vince... he just wants to pout. He is probably really excited about the slam dunk thing in NBA LIVE 2005 - he can relive his glory years. Oh yeah... and LOL to that post about him being a failure because of the two handed dunk from in front of the foul line... that was jokes.


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