# Is Lebron James Overrated?



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Iam impressed by lebron james season, but iam not going crazy like many people are going crazy about lebron, Now hes a great talent but the Jordan Comparisons are ridiculos, Lebron has a team that is light years better then what Jordan had in his rookie season. Iam not bashing Lebron but just saying common guys, their is no and i mean NO comparison whatsoever, 

James 20.6 ppg 5.80 asst and 5.7 rbs 1 stlpg and his 41% isnt bad at all with his 40 minutes a game. 
But common 
Jordan 28.2 ppg 6.5 rbs 5.9 asst 2 stls on 51% shooting is amazing 
And again jordan did not have the team that lebron has around him, nor the amazing NBA ready body that lebron posses. the Rebounds and asst are simmilar, but iam not impressed with his overall game, Lebron doesnt have the great offball movement that A player like stojakovich, Again iam not bashing the kid, but the love affection has got to be towned down, I loved how the chicago fans actyally cheered when Kirk hinrich popped Lebron in the nose trying to steal a pass, This game i did not see any passion in Lebron, and the passion that i saw in him dissapered when he signed that huge contract with NIKE and made him a multi millionaire, Lebron will never have that intensity, i dont see it. I remember his High School days where he would go crazy after an asst or dunk or steal, but this game he strugled and was silent, did not even try to rally his players around him. I dont know about you but when you sign someone straight from high school hope that he doesnt sign a 120 million dollar shoe contract.

Is it just me or is it that Kirk Hinrich out played Lebron in every single way.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

It's just you...

We outplayed them..

We won...

It's a team game...

It wasn't Hinrich vs. Lebron....


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> It's just you...
> 
> We outplayed them..
> ...


dude i dint say did the team outplayed the cavs, i said is it just me or did Hinrich Out Play Lebron! I know that the bulls dominated the cavs.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> Iam impressed by lebron james season, but iam not going crazy like many people are going crazy about lebron, Now hes a great talent but the Jordan Comparisons are ridiculos, Lebron has a team that is light years better then what Jordan had in his rookie season. Iam not bashing Lebron but just saying common guys, their is no and i mean NO comparison whatsoever,
> 
> James 20.6 ppg 5.80 asst and 5.7 rbs 1 stlpg and his 41% isnt bad at all with his 40 minutes a game.
> ...


Wow was this the first Lebron game you have seen all season? because everything you are saying is being based off this one game


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> dude i dint say did the team outplayed the cavs, i said is it just me or did Hinrich Out Play Lebron! I know that the bulls dominated the cavs.


I heard you...

Let's try this again...

IT'S JUST YOU.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Re: Is Lebron James Overrated?*



> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow was this the first Lebron game you have seen all season? because everything you are saying is being based off this one game


no iam ive seen alot of his games, and i just dont see the big deal, hes a great talent amazing talent, all iam saying is that hes Not that GOOD. Ill take Stojakovich over Lebron anyday. But his whole Allstar attitude also made me wonder if he even cares, i mean the whole arrogant Leave me alone i dont care about the Dunk Contest, and the i wont accept to be an alternate, and that being an allstar inst that big of a deal, i mean this kid is a rookie he should be flatttered that hes even being considered to be an allstar.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

YES.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> I heard you...
> ...


OK cause you are the entire board, your speak for everyone. Why is it so hard to accept that Kirk Out played him.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Is Lebron James Overrated?*



> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> no iam ive seen alot of his games, and i just dont see the big deal, hes a great talent amazing talent, all iam saying is that hes Not that GOOD. Ill take Stojakovich over Lebron anyday.


Its therealdeal!!!!  

Or one of his followers! :uhoh:


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> dude i dint say did the team outplayed the cavs, i said is it just me or did Hinrich Out Play Lebron! I know that the bulls dominated the cavs.


no, it isn't just you...on this particular night in this particular game kirk outplayed lebron...which was a LARGE FACTOR in the Bulls winning the game.

yes, it's a team game...he led the team. arenas, is that so hard for you to admit?


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## benfica (Jul 17, 2002)

*Kirk outplayed him big time*

not even a contest. Kirk had the game won by the 3rd quarter and could have had a another triple double if it was a closer game.

Yes, Kirk outplayed Labron. Lebron stunk tonight big time.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

It's not hard for me to admit...

I see as it we outplayed them, we beat them...

These 2 didn't really even guard each other, so it's not like Hinrich locked down LJ and on the other end gave it to him on O...

That's what I'd call outplaying...

Show the statlines again, weren't they fairly similar?


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

Jordan had better Rookie stats, but he also had a year or two (two I think) of college under his belt before coming out. Lets see what Bron Bron does in a couple years and then make comparisons.

I think Lebron is the only guy in the league with chance to be as good or better than MJ. If he works his butt off he might get there. But then again he might not. I'd says its 50/50 . . . he will be a HOF before its all said and done either way though.


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> It's not hard for me to admit...
> 
> I see as it we outplayed them, we beat them...
> ...


Kirk: 22 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 0 TO, 0 ST, 0 BS

Bron: 18 points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 TO, 4 ST, 1 BS


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

Lebron is way overrated. Maybe we could trade Fizer and Erob for him. :laugh:


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

lebron just turned 19, and hes averaging 20/6/6, i will take him over anyone over the last 20years maybe excluding Jordan and Shaq.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Jordan went to UNC for 3 years.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>7thwatch</b>!
> 
> 
> Kirk: 22 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 0 TO, 0 ST, 0 BS
> ...


Thanks 7th...

Pretty similar.

The title of this thread is called Is Lebron James Overrated?

Seems to me that you're basing this off this one game, and that's ridiculous.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Simply put. No. Lebron James is not underrated.

He has put himself into the conversation with all-stars.

And he is straight out of high school.

Process that for a second.

I'm a full-fledged convert of Lebron's. He had me seeing him in high school. His approach to the game, not even his talents, his approach just floors me. Hell. His approach to everything is just so beyond his years.

I consider myself very fortunate to get to experience MJ for the span of my life. And now to get Lebron...special.

Consider. Kirk had a great game. He definitely had a better game than Lebron. But his numbers are for tonight are right around what Lebron has AVERAGED for much of the season.

And I think it's funny that people are now using the "look at the team around Lebron" arguement now that the Cavs are winning. When they were losing it was all Lebron's fault. And now that they are winning it's because of anything but Lebron. Whether it shows up in the stats or not, there's a reason that Lebron is almost always out on the court. Paul Silas is no fool. He's not going to play a kid just to play a kid. He literally can not get Lebron off the floor just because of all of the things that Lebron influences with that team. 41 mpg for a rookie out of high school is unheard of. MPG is a stat that doesn't get a lot of respect, but it should. You can't stay out on the floor that long unless you're an elite player in amazing condition.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

to even say that Lebron Has a 50% chance of being as good or better then jordan is ridiculous, i mean thats allready saying that even if he doesnt become the next jordan hes the second best player of all time, Lebron is no where near the level of Kobe yet, but i do see Lebrons Comparison closer to Magic Johnson then Jordan wich is in no way a knock on the kid.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*On this night, Hinrich is top rookie

By Nancy Armour
The Associated Press

Kirk Hinrich continues to impress, this time outplaying his more-heralded rookie counterpart to lead the Bulls to a 92-81 victory over the Cleveland Cavaliers on Monday night.*



like i said.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...sgamer,1,7501309.story?coll=cs-home-headlines


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

Does Lebron remind anyone of Master P's classic "Make 'Em Say Ugh ?" 

Well, he reminds me of it.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sith</b>!
> lebron just turned 19, and hes averaging 20/6/6, i will take him over anyone over the last 20years maybe excluding Jordan and Shaq.


over Kobe, Dirk, Iverson, KG, Duncan, Scottie Pippen, etc quick someone pass him a glass of Koolaide.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> to even say that Lebron Has a 50% chance of being as good or better then jordan is ridiculous, i mean thats allready saying that even if he doesnt become the next jordan hes the second best player of all time, Lebron is no where near the level of Kobe yet, but i do see Lebrons Comparison closer to Magic Johnson then Jordan wich is in no way a knock on the kid.


I dont understand why is that ridiculous? IT happens all the time. At some point someone will overtake MJ for the greatest player off all time its just life,physics, the natural progression of things. So to say it COULDNT happen is ridiculous


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> to even say that Lebron Has a 50% chance of being as good or better then jordan is ridiculous, i mean thats allready saying that even if he doesnt become the next jordan hes the second best player of all time, Lebron is no where near the level of Kobe yet, but i do see Lebrons Comparison closer to Magic Johnson then Jordan wich is in no way a knock on the kid.


Have you watched any of the Magic-Cleveland games this year?
Lebron is already a step below Mcgrady. To say he is nowhere near Kobe, especially this year, isn't entirely accurate.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> over Kobe, Dirk, Iverson, KG, Duncan, Scottie Pippen, etc quick someone pass him a glass of Koolaide.


You can do it...

You already have a glass in your hand....


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

I didn't see the game, but they say they underestimated the bulls on the radio.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Simply put. No. Lebron James is not underrated.
> 
> He has put himself into the conversation with all-stars.
> ...


so your telling me that if Kobe Bryant got 41 mpg he would not post up numbers like Lebron or even better. We are also forgeting that Amare Came straight out of high school also, and has been the most physical dominating PF in the League. No one here is saying that Lebron is a bad player or will be an average player.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Have you watched any of the Magic-Cleveland games this year?
> Lebron is already a step below Mcgrady. To say he is nowhere near Kobe, especially this year, isn't entirely accurate.


 the magic are a horrible team. I saw the games and lebron had great games against them, but so did Z, and boozer. kobe has been injured most of this year and has been having huge off court problems, but if he was healthy and not in trouble hes in the top 5 in almost every stat. Offensively maybe he is a step below T-mac but not at his overall level, Tmac is one of those players that will score 50 back to back points and can win the game at the last second, Lebron is not there YET.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> so your telling me that if Kobe Bryant got 41 mpg he would not post up numbers like Lebron or even better. We are also forgeting that Amare Came straight out of high school also, and has been the most physical dominating PF in the League. No one here is saying that Lebron is a bad player or will be an average player.


You don't see Lebron's superiority to Kobe and Amare coming out of high school? Are you blind? Just go look at a picture. Lebron has every bit the body Amare has, but he's a SG. And Kobe was a stringbean who played wild and out of control(a stark contrast to Lebron's maturity on the court, I would say Kobe still at times is less mature than Lebron(on and off the court).)

Lebron's been right around 21, 6 ,6 all season.
Kobe has been at 23, 5, 5. To say Lebron is nowhere near Kobe is just wishfull thinking.

Lebron is the truth. He's proven it. Problem is, every game he comes out and doesn't walk on water, people want to cry about the hype. But they never want to talk about the times he's been better than the hype which has been far closer to the norm than it has been to being the exception.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> the magic are a horrible team. I saw the games and lebron had great games against them, but so did Z, and boozer. kobe has been injured most of this year and has been having huge off court problems, but if he was healthy and not in trouble hes in the top 5 in almost every stat. Offensively maybe he is a step below T-mac but not at his overall level, Tmac is one of those players that will score 50 back to back points and can win the game at the last second, Lebron is not there YET.


Yes but you are saying Lebron isn't anywhere close to them right now. And that's simply not the truth. Maybe he's closer than you want to admit. The fact that this conversation can be had, and it not be as absurd as Curry=Shaq, says a whole lot about this kid.

And as far as the Magic being a horrible team. Well. They'll still get more wins than the Cavs got last year pre-lebron.

As far as Kobe. Yeah I know he's been subpar this season. That's all the more reason why THIS year Lebron has been right at his level. Lebron has a ways to go to get to Kobe of last year. But people act like Kobe is still top 5 this year. For much of the season he hasn't been. He's only now getting close to being in shape.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I'm not sure I understand this thread. 

Shouldn't you be discussing why Kirk Hinrich is underrated and improving over why Lebron is overrated and underperforming in this "one" game? 

I mean it's not like the Bulls are contending for the playoffs. You guys are still 18-42. Horri-bulls. Still six games behind Cleveland. 

There is no need to knock Lebron to talk about Hinrich, Hinrich's games are speaking for themselves. He is kicking *** and taking names.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> You don't see Lebron's superiority to Kobe and Amare coming out of high school? Are you blind? Just go look at a picture. Lebron has every bit the body Amare has, but he's a SG. And Kobe was a stringbean who played wild and out of control(a stark contrast to Lebron's maturity on the court, I would say Kobe still at times is less mature than Lebron(on and off the court).)
> ...


 there are players in high school right now that average more points asst and rebounds that Lebron did in high school so you can talk about his dominating high school performance, if Kobes High School games where being parated around TV like Kobes where , we would have had the same hype, Kobe averaged 30.8 points, 12 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 4.0 steals, 3.8 blocked shots per game in high school so dont tell me that Lebron Dominated high school way better then Kobe did.










Skinny yes but not a stringbean.


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## Philo (Feb 13, 2003)

No Lebron is not overrated. However, I don't think he is anywhere close to Kobe just yet. You cannot just look at stats.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes but you are saying Lebron isn't anywhere close to them right now. And that's simply not the truth. Maybe he's closer than you want to admit. The fact that this conversation can be had, and it not be as absurd as Curry=Shaq, says a whole lot about this kid.
> ...


 How can you sit there and say that Lebron is close or as good as Tmac! Tmac is a 4 time allstar, hes the focal point of the opposite teams defense, he gets double and trible teamed almost every time he touches the ball and yet he still average's 27 ppg. Tmac is in that Shaq, Iverson, KG, Level.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

That photo looks distorted.

Look at this:









vs.










Hell even right now. Kobe is 6-6 220.
Lebron is 6-8 240. Even now Lebron is more physically imposing.

And Lebron was considered the best High Schooler for 3 years since Lew Alcindor. And most said best ever. This was before he got on TV. That was never said about Kobe. Kobe was nowhere near where Lebron was in high school. Stats be damned. Is it really suprising to you that Kobe given his attitude had gross stats?

Lebron's game has always been about more than stats. I don't think we've seen that manifested enough on the pro-level. But the core of his game is making his teammates better. Kobe just makes Kobe better.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> That photo looks distorted.
> 
> Look at this:
> ...


No way iam i gonna say that without Shaq the Lakers would not win any tittles, but no way would the lakers win a tittle without Kobe, when the game is on the line who gets the ball last? KOBE.
Dude you put Lebron vs Kobe 1v1 Kobe schools Lebron, so what if Lebron has a better body, Darvin Ham had a way better body then Alot of players had makes no sense. How do we know that Kobe was no where near as ready, Kobe in only his second year out of high school averaged 15 ppg in less than half the minutes that Lebron plays. I think the Boozer, Z, and the vets are making that team better not Just Lebron.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> How can you sit there and say that Lebron is close or as good as Tmac! Tmac is a 4 time allstar, hes the focal point of the opposite teams defense, he gets double and trible teamed almost every time he touches the ball and yet he still average's 27 ppg. Tmac is in that Shaq, Iverson, KG, Level.


Watching Lebron does help one to make these type of proclamations. When they have played each other the last couple of times, T-Mac and Lebron have gone toe to toe. Lebron looks like he belongs in the conversation then. Granted T-Mac still looks a little better. But the diffrence is in experience right now. And Lebron is learning quick. And if the Cavs make the playoffs he's going to learn a ton for next year.

This would be a good conversation to have on the Cavs board instead of the Bulls board. You would get much more informed opinions on Lebron. tbp2 has done very in depth analysis of Lebron. Looked at damn near everything from freshmen year of high school to now. And he has come to very similiar conclusions as myself.

Lebron has a ton to improve still. And that's what is so exciting. But what he is doing RIGHT NOW. Is very underrated by a lot of folks who are too interested in asking the wrong questions about hype.

"Is Lebron Overrated?" is a question that you could have gotten away with in the summer, but there's no real excuse for it at this juncture in the season.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> No way iam i gonna say that without Shaq the Lakers would not win any tittles, but no way would the lakers win a tittle without Kobe, when the game is on the line who gets the ball last? KOBE.
> Dude you put Lebron vs Kobe 1v1 Kobe schools Lebron, so what if Lebron has a better body, Darvin Ham had a way better body then Alot of players had makes no sense. How do we know that Kobe was no where near as ready, Kobe in only his second year out of high school averaged 15 ppg in less than half the minutes that Lebron plays. I think the Boozer, Z, and the vets are making that team better not Just Lebron.


Or you could say that Lebron is making Z and Boozer and the vets better. Giving them a reason to think they can come out and beat anyone on any night. Z and Boozer were on the Cavs last year. Only got 17 wins. Now they expect to beat the Bulls. Expect to make the playoffs. Lebron is a leader.

Kobe when he came out, was just a punk. No one on the Lakers liked him then. None like him now. You put Lebron on that team, and chemistry goes up 500 percent. And that's what's hurting the Lakers right now. Ever since Karl Malone left, the chemistry has been venomous. Shaq and Lebron are friends. That would probably translate into much more than Shaq and Kobe being enemies.

You talk about how clutch Kobe is. But if they had Lebron, maybe they wouldn't need Kobe's clutchness. Maybe getting Shaq 5-8 more shots per game would be all you need? And it's not like Gary Payton can hit clutch shots either.

Has Kobe ever made someone better? I don't know. It's hard to tell.

Lebron you can look right away at what has happened with Boozer and Z. Imagine if that were Shaq instead of Z and Boozer. Scary.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Watching Lebron does help one to make these type of proclamations. When they have played each other the last couple of times, T-Mac and Lebron have gone toe to toe. Lebron looks like he belongs in the conversation then. Granted T-Mac still looks a little better. But the diffrence is in experience right now. And Lebron is learning quick. And if the Cavs make the playoffs he's going to learn a ton for next year.


Whats he gonna learn from making the playoffs with the CAVS that its ok to be 10 games under .500 and make the playoffs. no doubt will he learn alot of players would learn from any playoff experience, but to compare what a player does in high school and what he will do in the NBA is tricky. If you break alot of little stuff down more, Tmac still looks way better then lebron, Movement without the ball on the offensive side is not a strong point with lebron, and overall defense. I see lebron as a good player but no way near Tmac.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> there are players in high school right now that average more points asst and rebounds that Lebron did in high school so you can talk about his dominating high school performance, if Kobes High School games where being parated around TV like Kobes where , we would have had the same hype, Kobe averaged 30.8 points, 12 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 4.0 steals, 3.8 blocked shots per game in high school so dont tell me that Lebron Dominated high school way better then Kobe did.


Please, of course he did. NBA scouts are not idiots, and while LeBron was the consensus first pick in the draft, Kobe was an afterthought who fell to number 13. Does that have to do with the fact that LeBron had a vastly superior high school career? I think so.

However, it cuts both ways. Yes, LeBron right now is far more physically mature than Kobe was in his first year out of high school, but that also means that he has less room for physical development than Kobe had. I expect LeBron to peak at an earlier age than Kobe has peaked, and even Kobe had a better season at 24 than he is having at 25.

I have no doubt that LeBron will be close to Kobe's level, although to say he'll EXCEED that level for sure is jumping the gun. But when you compare their performances at the same age you are simplifying things a little too much.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Or you could say that Lebron is making Z and Boozer and the vets better. Giving them a reason to think they can come out and beat anyone on any night. Z and Boozer were on the Cavs last year. Only got 17 wins. Now they expect to beat the Bulls. Expect to make the playoffs. Lebron is a leader.
> ...


Dude Z was good long before Lebron, and Boozer this year finnaly has gotten a chance to show his stuff, Dude last time i checked a healthy Kobe after the break has got his lakers team in the last 10 games to a 8-2 record. Lebron if he was on the Lakers your telling me that there would be instant Chemistry, ok lets see how long the Lebron and Shaq friendship will last once lebron shoots 30 times a night, oh yeah and i forgot in no way Gary Payton is venom to a team ok.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Please, of course he did. NBA scouts are not idiots


granted yes alot of Scouts are not idiots, but its easy for a scout to get caught up in the hoopla of what media is doing for Lebron. Alot of scouts right now are calling other high school players the next lebron, or better then lebron, alot of scouts thought extreamly highly of Joe Smith also. Alot of Scouts say alot of things.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> Whats he gonna learn from making the playoffs with the CAVS that its ok to be 10 games under .500 and make the playoffs. no doubt will he learn alot of players would learn from any playoff experience, but to compare what a player does in high school and what he will do in the NBA is tricky. If you break alot of little stuff down more, Tmac still looks way better then lebron, Movement without the ball on the offensive side is not a strong point with lebron, and overall defense. I see lebron as a good player but no way near Tmac.


What you learn in the playoffs is most times, for most guys, how much it sucks to get sent home. Playoff losses are responsible for as much as playoff wins in terms of player development.

Look at what losing in the playoffs has done to KG's game. He has come back harder and harder every year. And you can look in his eyes and tell straight off what the story is.

It's very diffrent being on a team that goes to the lottery everyear and being on a team that loses in the playoffs, even if it is the first round. Look at our guys. They still have no clue.

Playoff embarrassment always fuels the great ones. Remember when Kobe air-balled that shot against the Jazz in the closing seconds? He made sure that would never happen again.

When you say "no way near" T-Mac or Kobe, how big of a gap are you talking? I think part of the problem could be that my perception of "no way near" is stronger than you are intending it.

Or you could just place T-Mac and Kobe on a higher level than I do. I personally don't think T-Mac or Kobe have really reached the level of being unquestionable.

I put Lebron right around Paul Pierce. Which is right below Iverson. Which is a skip from this year's version of Kobe. And a hop from T-Mac. So to me he's certainly near Kobe and T-Mac. And given how rapidly he learns and improves, it's not out of the question for me that next year that gap could narrow significantly.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> What you learn in the playoffs is most times, for most guys, how much it sucks to get sent home. Playoff losses are responsible for as much as playoff wins in terms of player development.
> ...


where do you rate Pierce compared to all the other NBA players? Yeah losing gets to you, but KG never got the money that lebron allready has.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> Dude Z was good long before Lebron, and Boozer this year finnaly has gotten a chance to show his stuff, Dude last time i checked a healthy Kobe after the break has got his lakers team in the last 10 games to a 8-2 record. Lebron if he was on the Lakers your telling me that there would be instant Chemistry, ok lets see how long the Lebron and Shaq friendship will last once lebron shoots 30 times a night, oh yeah and i forgot in no way Gary Payton is venom to a team ok.


That's just the thing. There is no way in hell Lebron shoots 30 times a night with Shaq there. Lebron pretty much does exactly what Paul Silas tells him to. Z's touches have not suffered at all because of Lebron's prescence. In fact, I would say he's getting higher quality touches. He actually has a guy who knows how to throw a post-entry pass(a very underrated skill).

I think it's pretty undeniable that Lebron and Paul Silas have both been godsends to the Cavs post players. Hell, even Chris Mihm looked awesome this year for the Cavs. And who really thought that would ever happen.

A lot of the Cavs recent success is a tribute to the fact that Lebron doesn't have Kobe's ego, and has no problems with Boozer and Z getting their shine. Everyone on the Cavs knows their role at this point in the season. Which is more than you can say for the Lakers. Even though the Lakers are obviously the superior team.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Kobe does have an ego, but so does Lebron, the only difference everyone is counting on lebron to lead the team, there is no Shaq on the cavs. Lebron has a very big ego the only difference is that its HIS team.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> where do you rate Pierce compared to all the other NBA players? Yeah losing gets to you, but KG never got the money that lebron allready has.


To the great ones money means nothing. Lebron's improvement since he got the big contract is proof enough that he's not content to just pick up checks. So I don't buy into that arguement, as there is no evidence to it's validity especially as it pertains to Lebron.

As far as Pierce. It's tough off the top of my head to spit the list out.

But I would have Pierce in the 7-11 range. Depending on the night. That's overall. I think overall Lebron is about a 15-20 right now.

But in terms of perimeter players, Pierce is 6 or 7. And Lebron is right after him at an 8.

I don't think the numbers quite work out with that. But basically when you're talking about this year's all-star team, I thought it was a very strong case for Lebron to be on there instead of Pierce. But it wasn't a huge problem either. So for me he's almost to the point of being interchangable with Pierce right now. Which might say as much about where Pierce's game and team are headed as it does about where Lebron and the Cavs are going.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Yeah but dont forget Pirce is the Celtics he has no and i mean no supporting cast at all. Pierce is a hell of a player just a year a go with the help of walker he was droping 25 a night with 7 rebounds.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> Kobe does have an ego, but so does Lebron, the only difference everyone is counting on lebron to lead the team, there is no Shaq on the cavs. Lebron has a very big ego the only difference is that its HIS team.


I don't know. Part of the reason Ricky Davis got traded was because Lebron's ego wasn't asserting itself out of differnce to Davis being a veteran. That's nothing like Kobe going to the Lakers his rookie year and getting percieved by teammates as an arrogant brat. You hear nothing like that about Lebron from anybody on the team. His teammates seem to love him.

That's a weakness for Lebron sometimes. He's at his best when he plays like he knows he's the best out there and all he's thinking about is the W. Which is why the playoffs should be such a big experience for him. Because I think he'll take his game up to another level and learn a lot about himself. I don't think he has any idea about what he can do on a basketball court on this level yet. Right now he'll do something completely dominant, but it will be almost on accident. just instinct taking over. When that becomes an every play thing, then I think he's going to move in as the best perimeter player in the league. Because when you see those flashes, he jumps from a good rookie to the best in the league on the perimeter. I've had to pick my jaw up off the floor too many times this year not to be a huge fan of his. He's quickly becoming my favorite player. Playoffs would cinch it.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I dont think anyone on the cavs is dumb enough to complain about Lebron, Sure alot of players on the Lakers called Kobe a brat, but the only one complaining now is shaq. We dont know what goes on behind the scenes, but alot of bulls players complained about Jordan also. Jordan even dough was tuff on alot of his team mates it is so clear that he made many of them light years better then they would ever be on any other team.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> I dont think anyone on the cavs is dumb enough to complain about Lebron, Sure alot of players on the Lakers called Kobe a brat, but the only one complaining now is shaq. We dont know what goes on behind the scenes, but alot of bulls players complained about Jordan also. Jordan even dough was tuff on alot of his team mates it is so clear that he made many of them light years better then they would ever be on any other team.


Well. If you want to compare Kobe to Jordan, then I'm well within my bounds to compare Lebron to Kobe.

Kobe isn't tough on his teammates though. He just isn't liked by them. Because he never hung with them off the court and had an air of superiority.

That's a little diffrent than the way Jordan interacted with his teammates. They all knew Jordan was the man on the team. He proved it every practice and in every game.

With the Lakers if they don't like what Kobe's selling, they can just be in Shaq's camp.

In that respect Lebron is actually closer to Jordan in that he has his teammates respect. It's interesting that one of the things Jeff Mcginnis commented upon when he first got to Cleveland was Lebron's practice habits. And there have been stories about Lebron running Cavs practices when the coaches were away.

This will be a good arguement to keep a tab on over the years. assuming that neither player gets hurt or sent to jail.


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

> And there have been stories about Lebron running Cavs practices when the coaches were away.


He started a practice early. Silas said he's never seen any player do that.

If you think LeBron's teammates do not respect him, you might want to listen to what the players say. When Ira Newble, a player fighting for his own job, goes out of the way to commend LeBron on the radio, I think that shows respect. Newble wasn't even asked about LeBron. - just an example

I could go really crazy about some of the posts I've seen here, but I won't. I know more detail about LeBron than anyone on this entire board. I am fully aware of bias, and at first (that is, his freshman year in HS) I was very skeptical. I think furturisxten has explained some things well. I think it is impossibile for people to grasp simple concepts such as sample size and era comparrison. 

Whatever. Im really sick of arguing the same things over and over. Maybe when I have time I'll put together a long DETAILED explanation about LeBron that use every time. 

Just to keep things in perspective, how many rookies have averaged 20/5/5? Three. MJ, Oscar, and LeBron. Even with the complex statiscal deflations that occur today and the vast difference in age and college experience, LeBron still sneaks in to this group.

For anyone arguing about minutes, did it ever occur to you that playing more minutes is a quality? Stats don't increase linearly as minutes are added. FG% usually doesnt stay the same as more shots are taken. There are many factors, such as energ, mental mindsets, team roles, that determine how stats are related to minutes. It's not nearly as simple as some think.

These are just a few basic points. 


Next season LeBron will average 24/7/7. Write it down. Somehow I have a feeling that that wont be good enough for some.

I love Hinrich, but you have to compare the whole season.

LeBron: 21/6/6
Hinrich: 12/3/6 

(yes, rounded, because 20.6 is closer to 21 than 20, etc.)


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## Chi_Lunatic (Aug 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Just to keep things in perspective, how many rookies have averaged 20/5/5? Three. MJ, Oscar, and LeBron. Even with the complex statiscal deflations that occur today and the vast difference in age and college experience, LeBron still sneaks in to this group.


thank you..and he's just 19??? HOW THE **** can he be overrated if he's doing that at 19 YEARS OLD man? look how much IMPROVING hes GOING to do, that's prolly thee SCARIEST (sp) thought..

IMO, he has the ability to be better than EVERYONE currently in the league. I'm pretty sure when jordan did what he did his rookie season, there were haters out there JUST LIKE YOU saying the same thing. Of course he ain't at kobe and t-mac's level but trust, he will BE THERE sooner than YOU think. Only time will tell, and YES it's just YOU. lol

1


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> However, it cuts both ways. Yes, LeBron right now is far more physically mature than Kobe was in his first year out of high school, but that also means that he has less room for physical development than Kobe had. I expect LeBron to peak at an earlier age than Kobe has peaked, and even Kobe had a better season at 24 than he is having at 25.


Exactly. Lebron doesnt have as much room to improve as Kobe did, because Lebrons already got a body and cant get much bigger without breaking into PF territory. 

Lebron is overrated, by that I mean hes rated better than what he actually is. I think he'll be a superstar, a top 5 player in the league by the time hes 23 or 24 probably. I dont think he deserves the MJ and Magic comparisons at all, not yet atleast. He should be compared to guys like Kobe and Tmac who are obviously superior to him now.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> 
> Whatever. Im really sick of arguing the same things over and over. Maybe when I have time I'll put together a long DETAILED explanation about LeBron that use every time.


I hope you do this sometime. I would love to read it. As hyped as people say Lebron is, not very many people have taken the time to actually break his game down, or even something as basic as tell his story.

It's amazing that as much as Lebron is talked about, he's actually been undercovered with regards to serious journalism.

Besides just the diffrent aspects of his game and his practice habits, I would really like to read a nice writeup of his story up until now. He seems like an exceptional person, not just player, to come from where he came from, and to be as humble(yet still have a little arrogance--which I find fascinating) as he is. He's not just a unique basketball player. He seems like a unique person. Which I think goes hand in hand.

And at the very least that story would shed a lot of light on the current state of US amateur basketball.

Anyhow. My two cents. I hope you do at some point take the time to write out an in depth analysis. You could probably get it published somewhere with the lack of real substance in media coverage on Lebron.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly. Lebron doesnt have as much room to improve as Kobe did, because Lebrons already got a body and cant get much bigger without breaking into PF territory.


But if you watch him you see that he's far from mature in how he uses his body. Which is just as important as having that body. How often do you see him in the paint posting up guards? Not very often. Yet if he did that would be easy points for him.

Lebron's ceiling is higher because of the diversity of his skills. He has the body. Now it's all about adjusting his mind to the NBA game. It's not really that he doesn't have as much room to improve, it's that he can improve much quicker because for him it's all about learning about his abilities and how to dominate the NBA game. He doesn't need to spend hours in the weight room adding much. He can instead spend that time working on his jumper. Working on his post moves. And so on.

One thing that should be apparent to all here on the Bulls board is that the great ones become great, not just because they are freaks, but because of how they attack the game mentally. Jordan stripped off all of his athleticism was still capable of getting 40 on back to back nights, just on his mental prowess alone.

Look at Kobe now. Since this summer he hasn't had it athletically. But what you see is that he is dominating the game almost entirely on his mind. While his body tries to catch up.

So I think if you are looking at Lebron's finished product body and thinking that's all there is to develop, then I think you are missing 90 percent of what will make Lebron or any player great.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> One thing that should be apparent to all here on the Bulls board is that the great ones become great, not just because they are freaks, but because of how they attack the game mentally. Jordan stripped off all of his athleticism was still capable of getting 40 on back to back nights, just on his mental prowess alone.


I agree with this 100%. Although I dont think Lebron has shown any signs of being able to dominate mentally, but he hasnt shown any signs that he wont be able to do that in the future. 

My main thing with Lebron is, its not what hes done up until this point that will make him great, its the hard work he will have to put in between now and the end of his career that will make him great, assuming he puts in the work. 

Right now, the thing working to his advantage most is time, and its only an advantage if he uses it wisely.


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

Why do you guys talk so much **** after you beat a team? 

This thread would not even be here if Cleveland had won


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

> Although I dont think Lebron has shown any signs of being able to dominate mentally


Alright, you dont watch too many of his games. There have been many games were LeBron has clearly taken the team on his back. And then you go right to generalities by saying that he's at his prime when he hardly ever uses his body.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> Iam impressed by lebron james season, but iam not going crazy like many people are going crazy about lebron, Now hes a great talent but the Jordan Comparisons are ridiculos, Lebron has a team that is light years better then what Jordan had in his rookie season. Iam not bashing Lebron but just saying common guys, their is no and i mean NO comparison whatsoever,
> 
> James 20.6 ppg 5.80 asst and 5.7 rbs 1 stlpg and his 41% isnt bad at all with his 40 minutes a game.
> ...


Lebron is 19 years old and a highschool product. You can't compare his progress to a player who had 3 years college experience. Jordan was one hell of a rookie but it would be unfair to compare Lebron's to MJ rookie season statistically considering that variable. As for their teams...yes...I believe that Lebron has a better supporting cast but it wasn't as if Jordan had nobody. He had Woolridge who averaged 22.9 ppg. In terms of team success I say both are pretty equal. The Bulls won 11 more games and Cleveland is on pace to improve 16 games.

The game vs. the Bulls is not a good indicator of how well Lebron has performed this season considering all variables and his age and experience. He's a marketing machine as was Jordan. The same scrutiny and criticism I am hearing about Lebron being overrated is the same thing I heard about Jordan his first few years. Many people forget the type of hate (more like jealousy) that Jordan received before he won. Jordan is the greatest and most complete offensive player ever to play the NBA. Lebron definitely has a chance to become one of the best if not better. Hopefully he fulfills his potential because that would be great for the NBA product.

21 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg for a HS product is uncanny especially when you consider that only 2 other rookies have achieved 20-5-5...that being the great Oscar and the greatest Michael Jordan.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: Is Lebron James Overrated?*



> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> Lebron is 19 years old and a highschool product. You can't compare his progress to a player who had 3 years college experience. Jordan was one hell of a rookie but it would be unfair to compare Lebron's to MJ rookie season statistically considering that variable. As for their teams...yes...I believe that Lebron has a better supporting cast but it wasn't as if Jordan had nobody. He had Woolridge who averaged 22.9 ppg. In terms of team success I say both are pretty equal. The Bulls won 11 more games and Cleveland is on pace to improve 16 games.
> ...


You're one of my favorite posters to read regardless of the point being made.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

he had 1 bad game, and now he is overatted. Hes leading his team to the playoffs, and is a star already. Kirk or any other rookie is not even close to the same level as him. dont base judgement on 1 game..if u want to bas everything on 1 game, Mark Blount is the best player in the nba


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## honk4tad (Feb 18, 2004)

To answer the question posed by the title of this thread:

NO. 

Is all this discussion really necessary?


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

MJ was 20 when he was a rookie. That is why he has fg 51%.
when Lebron is 20, he will have fg 52%.

51% = top 10
41% = 317th of 348 player


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Overrated? Depends who's doing the rating I s'pose. He's been better than I expected him to be this season.

Overhyped? Oh yeah. Judging by all the media and marketing attention he's gotten, you'd think he was head and shoulders the best player in the game. He's not...yet.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Nah.

He's all that and a chalupa too.


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> MJ was 20 when he was a rookie. That is why he has fg 51%.
> when Lebron is 20, he will have fg 52%.
> 
> ...


Jordan = 51%
average = 49.5%

LeBron = 41%
average = 42.5%

They are not that far off, considering LeBron is strait from HS, where he didn't have to work that hard to get most of his points. 

LeBron doesnt use his body yet and his jumper will get much better. I see him shooting 43-44% next season, which is pretty good. Remember, when guys take more shots they tend to have lower FG%s. A guy that scores 10 points on 6 shots isnt going to score 20 points on 12 shots. There is no linear relationship.


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>transplant</b>!
> Overrated? Depends who's doing the rating I s'pose. He's been better than I expected him to be this season.
> 
> Overhyped? Oh yeah. Judging by all the media and marketing attention he's gotten, you'd think he was head and shoulders the best player in the game. He's not...yet.


But it is your job as a basketball fan to notice that the marketing is based on factors other than his CURRENT game. His situation, age, natural talent, and promise for the future come in to play during marketing. 

I do agree that AT TIMES LeBron can get a bit overhyped. This makes people angry. These include things like commentators increasing the QUANTITY of their LeBron talk. However, I believe they are pretty accurate about what they are actually saying. People often get caught up in emotion, and they forget about the player's game. '


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

In the history of professional basketball, Lebron James would seem to be the best 18-19 year old basketball player ever. Add to that the fact that he didn't have a year of college seasoning. The guy is a flat out freak. The fact that he has been able to anywhere live up to his 90-million-dollar-shoe-contract-before-he-played-an-NBA-game is rather staggering. 

Lebron had a NBA elite body to match with his all court skills. He's got the hops, the handle, the strength, the jumpshot form with beautful rotation and arc, the creativity, the leadership potential, the on-court killer attitude, the off-court charisma, hell he's handsome taboot. He's pretty much a perfect prospect.

But none of this means he will reach his potential, which is as high as potential can be. As of right now he's probably a top 20-25 NBA player. He's not the best player in the league yet, although most would agree he could maybe should be. But to be as good as Michael Jordan, he will have to form himself into one of the elite defensive players in the league for years on end. He must win about 80% of the close games he plays in once he enters his prime. He must modify his game to lengthen his reign as an elite player once his athleticism starts to fail. And he will also need to win several NBA championships. 

Some have suggested Lebron will peak earlier than Kobe, for example, due to his developed body. This could be, but when some players might reach a certain level of greatness and stop pushing themselves, the true great ones push themselves to obtain perfection, not just to be better than all of their current opponents. The most skilled basketball players in the league only shoot around 50% (a bit lower these days). Is it really impossible that a dominant superstar swingman/perimeter player couldn't shoot 55% in today's game if had the ability to be that much better than his competition? Michael Jordan shot 85% for the free throw line almost every year of his career. This number could be bettered; elite shooters such as Reggie Miller and Allan Houston exceed that percentage every year. Could Lebron be one of those elite free throw shooters as well? 

Lebron, much like Neo maybe, would seem to have the tools to do things that just about everyone else can't do. Much will depend on his work ethic going forward. Talent and potential don't necesarrily transform themselves into permanent greatness. But in Lebron we have a candidate to set the new benchmark of NBA greatness, and it should be a joy to watch and see just how far he will get.


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> In the history of professional basketball, Lebron James would seem to be the best 18-19 year old basketball player ever. Add to that the fact that he didn't have a year of college seasoning. The guy is a flat out freak. The fact that he has been able to anywhere live up to his 90-million-dollar-shoe-contract-before-he-played-an-NBA-game is rather staggering.
> 
> Lebron had a NBA elite body to match with his all court skills. He's got the hops, the handle, the strength, the jumpshot form with beautful rotation and arc, the creativity, the leadership potential, the on-court killer attitude, the off-court charisma, hell he's handsome taboot. He's pretty much a perfect prospect.
> ...


"Can I get a Lay-up!"


However...

LeBron does have a nice jumper, but he needs to get his body squared to the hoop more often. In warm-ups, LeBron is above average. It's hard to think that a guy who consistently hits ten threes in a row suddenly drops off the slightly below average during games. It's mainy because he needs to concentrate on getting a good base. 

LeBron, during quite a number of games, has shown an amazing killer instinct. He goes on a tear and either brings the team back or closes the game (at utah, at chicago, portland, new orleans, miami, memphis, boston, detroit....and more). However, there are some games he is out of hit (last night, at detroit, at houston, at clippers, at hawks). These occur less often. In the in-between games, he plays very well, but they dont stand out like the drive he shows in those other games. Partially, this is due to the type of game. Im excited to see so many games where LeBron has shown the killer instinct. Everyone watching it knows it too, when watching these games. I dont see a reason why he wont be able to increase these in the future. I think fatigue has something to do with his down games.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

he can't make outside shots because he has big body. you can't do anything about it.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> he can't make outside shots because he has big body. you can't do anything about it.


What are you talking about?  

Dirk Nowitsky, Peja, and Cliff Robinson are all great 3pt shooters with similar size or bigger bodies.

Next.... :sigh:


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Shooting is all about Form and release, it doesnt matter how big you are, Larry Bird. Lebron doesnt have great form or realease, i think right now in his stage he is relying way to much on his athleticism. Look at Pedja when he shoots its a thing of beuty.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

[sarcasm]Lebron is the greatest player ever and is above reproach.[/sarcasm]

Shoot me now.:uhoh:


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> Shooting is all about Form and release, it doesnt matter how big you are, Larry Bird. Lebron doesnt have great form or realease, i think right now in his stage he is relying way to much on his athleticism. Look at Pedja when he shoots its a thing of beuty.


What the hell is the matter with Lebron's release? I think it looks great. Light years ahead of where he started the season too. 

Please give me one valid criticism of Lebron's release.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Please give me one valid criticism of Lebron's release.



He does it in the wrong uni


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> What the hell is the matter with Lebron's release? I think it looks great. Light years ahead of where he started the season too.
> ...


for one his horrible shotting percentage past the arch. Most of his scoring comes from drives to the basket, even Silas said that his shot needs alot of work, when he shoots sometimes it looks like he realeases the ball not at the top of his jump but on the way down resulting in alot of off the rim shots.


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> What the hell is the matter with Lebron's release? I think it looks great. Light years ahead of where he started the season too.
> ...


His release is fine. He gets great spin and he keeps his elbow in. It's all about facing up to the basket and taking balanced shots - that's what needs to improve on.

He almost never releases coming down, unless he takes an off-balance shot.


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

edit


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Damon Stoudamire beat lebron because Damon is a great defender.
Lebron can't defend Cat Mobley because cat is a shooter.
Lebron can't play against Hinrich because hinrich is a monster.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> 
> 
> His release is fine. He gets great spin and he keeps his elbow in. It's all about facing up to the basket and taking balanced shots - that's what needs to improve on.
> ...


Agreed, and good analysis. But I should also mention that Lebron's balance, while not consistent, is much better than it was at the beginning of the season.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Agreed, and good analysis. But I should also mention that Lebron's balance, while not consistent, is much better than it was at the beginning of the season.


Well just about everything is improved since the begining of the year. Everytime he's been challenged to improve his game he's done it.

That's one of my favorite things about him, in contrast to the 3 C's. You tell Lebron to do something, you teach him something, and it's immediately in his game like he's been doing it all his life. I wonder about his IQ level, because he seems very gifted. Wasn't he an A/B student at SVSM? Which is a college prep school, no?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> Alright, you dont watch too many of his games. There have been many games were LeBron has clearly taken the team on his back. And then you go right to generalities by saying that he's at his prime when he hardly ever uses his body.


Is that the new thing to say when you disagree with someone "you must not watch many of his games" blah. I never said Lebrons in his prime, I said hes closer to his prime than Kobe or Tmac was at the same age. Like I said, Lebron hasnt shown the ability to dominate a game MENTALLY, but that doesnt mean he wont be able to. If you stop taking quotes out of context you'll realize what I said. 

You must not watch any games.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Is that the new thing to say when you disagree with someone "you must not watch many of his games" blah. I never said Lebrons in his prime, I said hes closer to his prime than Kobe or Tmac was at the same age. Like I said, Lebron hasnt shown the ability to dominate a game MENTALLY, but that doesnt mean he wont be able to. If you stop taking quotes out of context you'll realize what I said.
> ...


How is it possible to have two players of the same age, and yet have one of them closer to his prime than the other? Why do you think Lebron is closer to his prime? What does the word prime mean for you? For me it means his peak years. And regardless of how close he is to being the best player in the league, his prime will be in his late 20's, just like it is with nearly every player.

But if we get back to this question of why you think Lebron is closer to his prime...most likely it's because of his body, correct? Now how did he get that body? Answer: Hard work. He worked harder on his body by this stage than Kobe or T-mac. Now why doesn't it stand to reason that he will continue to work harder than Kobe or T-Mac for the next how ever many years? Do you think Lebron is so good already that he could work hard and not improve on anything? That's preposterous. The fact of the matter is, he will continue with the work ethic that made him the best prep player, possibly ever, and as he ages he will reap more and more the benefits of it.

Also take into account as he gets older, there are more and more players coming in who will have less experience than him. Which will only increase his edge. To the point where he is at 27-29 and he is at the premier age for an NBA player playing against kids who don't know as much, and older guys who aren't as physically able as him. That is when his prime will be.

He might surpass T-Mac and Kobe before then. But it doesn't mean he won't get better. So long as he continues to work hard he's going to keep improving. Every single great player adds something to their game every year. Why should Lebron be any diffrent? The game of basketball is not just about being bigger stronger faster, it's so much about the mental. And it's the improvement of that mental that Lebron can focus most on. I would think having more time to focus on the mental aspect of the game than Kobe or T-Mac would mean that he has a chance to be that much better.

I don't see how he can be penalized for the hard work that he has already put in that has placed him ahead of anyone else who has come before him. That hard work will always be the seperation.

Michael Jordan was the greatest ever because he worked harder than anyone(with the exception of other greats like Bird and Magic) BUT he was also blessed with physical skills the other greats weren't. In that respect Lebron is looking very similiar.


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## Like A Breath (Jun 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> I don't see how he can be penalized for the hard work that he has already put in that has placed him ahead of anyone else who has come before him. That hard work will always be the seperation.


Exactly. Right now it's a lose-lose situation for LeBron. If he puts up big stats people will say he's already maxed out, but if he doesn't people will say he's a bust. If he's in superb physical form, people will say he's peaked as a player, but if he doesn't they'll say he didn't work hard enough or will never get stronger. What he's done is work hard enough to make sure that he'd be prepared, and now that he is I can't imagine that he'd just stop working. There are many holes in his game yet he is putting up All-star numbers as a high-school rookie. With his work ethic, that is very exciting for NBA(not just Cavs) fans.


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Is that the new thing to say when you disagree with someone "you must not watch many of his games" blah. I never said Lebrons in his prime, I said hes closer to his prime than Kobe or Tmac was at the same age. Like I said, Lebron hasnt shown the ability to dominate a game MENTALLY, but that doesnt mean he wont be able to. If you stop taking quotes out of context you'll realize what I said.
> ...


Ok, so LeBron will be in peak physical shape longer than those guys, and he'll make better use of his change in abilities as he ages. Physical abilities are greatly controlled by genetics as people age. In exercise science, they'll tell you that overall physical ability runs a different course than your overall body build. A player with the same body build at 18 will not be as physically gifted as himself with the same body build at 25 years old. We all see LeBron's muscle and low body fat, and people make the mistake of connecting that to physical output. It doesnt quite work that way. 

What exactly do you mean by dominating a game mentally? If that means showing uncanny killer instinct during winning time, LeBron has done that on many occassions, and it stands out.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> *How is it possible to have two players of the same age, and yet have one of them closer to his prime than the other?* Why do you think Lebron is closer to his prime? What does the word prime mean for you? For me it means his peak years.


:whofarted

So to clarify, it is your claim that every player reaches his prime at the exact same age? Because if different players reached their primes at different ages, it would seem to be possible for two players to be of the same age, yet one closer to his prime than the other, right?



> And regardless of how close he is to being the best player in the league, his prime will be in his late 20's, just like it is with nearly every player.


In today's NBA people seem to peak around age 26, as shown by looking at the average age of top players over the past few years. For a guy like LeBron who comes out of high school at age 18 and whose body takes the beating of an NBA schedule from such an earlier age, and who relies so much on athleticism, I would expect him to peak a year or two earlier, at around 24, and then wear down, although perhaps he will surprise me and last longer than that. It's not the 90s anymore, people don't peak in their late 20's anymore.

Allen Iverson = 28, past his prime
Vince Carter = 27, past his prime
Paul Pierce = 26, having his worst season in years
Steve Francis = 26, worst season in years
Mike Finley = 30, way past his prime
Rasheed Wallace = 29, way past his prime


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

I really could care less about Lebron James. Why are we having this discussion on a Bulls Board again?? I am a bulls fan and Lebron James Means nothing to me. Time to move along people.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


KG is the first high school level guy to go through the ringer in the modern sense. And he is certainly just now entering his prime at 27.

Iverson is in his prime. Regardless of injuries. When he's been healthy he has played the best all-around basketball of his career.

Vince Carter is injured. Not past his prime.

Paul Pierce is on the celtics as Danny Ainge dismantles the team around him. Nothing to do with his prime. He's still terrific and will be better.

Francis is not past his prime. He's in a system that he doesn't fit in.

Wallace...how is Wallace way past his prime? He's been playing out of position for much of the season, and he's underachieved for much of his career so I don't know what you define as his prime.

Finley is coming out of his prime. Judgment of him is skewed by the fact that he took a lesser role on the Mavs to let Dirk and Nash shine the last few seasons.

I mean... you are saying a player's prime is 24? So that means Kirk and Jamal are almost in their primes. Wow. Talk about a disapointment. We've all been so excited about Kirk. But he's only got a few years and then it's all down hill from there. And forget about Jamal. Jamal's 24. Old timer. Make a place for him in the old folks home. 

Anyhow. You have your opinions about Lebron's future. You're not going to change them no matter what I say. And you've yet to really convince me that you know more about Lebron than tbp2 or many others on these boards.

Your naysaying may be right in a lot of instances, but I think this is an instance where you are reaching a little far.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> KG is the first high school level guy to go through the ringer in the modern sense. And he is certainly just now entering his prime at 27.
> ...


While I don't necessarily agree (or disagree) with his assertion, all of the above amounts to nothing but a bunch of excuses. I don't see any of them as valid, until they prove they can be as good as they were 2-3 years ago (exception: KG, who is ballin out of control).


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## MiSTa iBN (Jun 16, 2002)

lol, Lebron is by far the best high schooler and one of the greatest rookies to ever play the game. To start off your season with 20 6 6 is amazing for anybody let alone a high schooler. Way better than Kobe, Tmac or any other high schooler you want to put out there...You seen how Jamal and the crew got out of the way when he dunked, his athleticism is on another level, even greater than Kobe's.


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## MiSTa iBN (Jun 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> :whofarted
> ...



I guess you missed the dunk Sheed made last night lol, I do think Finley's past his prime, but as far as Vince, A.I. (not to sure about A.I.) and Paul Pierce they still have some super years ahead of them


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> How is it possible to have two players of the same age, and yet have one of them closer to his prime than the other? Why do you think Lebron is closer to his prime? What does the word prime mean for you? For me it means his peak years. And regardless of how close he is to being the best player in the league, his prime will be in his late 20's, just like it is with nearly every player.


Well, a ton of people seem to think Carmelo wont get much better and Lebron will improve leaps and bounds. They are the same age. I dont think theres a set age for prime. 



> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> But if we get back to this question of why you think Lebron is closer to his prime...most likely it's because of his body, correct? Now how did he get that body? Answer: Hard work. He worked harder on his body by this stage than Kobe or T-mac. Now why doesn't it stand to reason that he will continue to work harder than Kobe or T-Mac for the next how ever many years? Do you think Lebron is so good already that he could work hard and not improve on anything? That's preposterous. The fact of the matter is, he will continue with the work ethic that made him the best prep player, possibly ever, and as he ages he will reap more and more the benefits of it.


He worked harder on his body than anyone else, but because he has that body he can use the skills he already has at an NBA level. Who knows how much skill Kobe had at the same age? He wasnt able to use his skills as much as Lebron can now because Kobe didnt have the body. Kobe could have been much much more skilled at the same age, but we didnt know it because bigger stronger guys could just push him around. 



> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Also take into account as he gets older, there are more and more players coming in who will have less experience than him. Which will only increase his edge. To the point where he is at 27-29 and he is at the premier age for an NBA player playing against kids who don't know as much, and older guys who aren't as physically able as him. That is when his prime will be.


I think his prime will come much sooner than that. Theres really no way to say for sure when it will be, so no point debating it. 



> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> He might surpass T-Mac and Kobe before then. But it doesn't mean he won't get better. So long as he continues to work hard he's going to keep improving. Every single great player adds something to their game every year. Why should Lebron be any diffrent? The game of basketball is not just about being bigger stronger faster, it's so much about the mental. And it's the improvement of that mental that Lebron can focus most on. I would think having more time to focus on the mental aspect of the game than Kobe or T-Mac would mean that he has a chance to be that much better.


But he might not surpass Tmac and Kobe, ever. The main phrase in this is "so long as he continues to work hard" thats the main thing. Right now, Tmac and Kobe are superior players to Lebron, by far. 



> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> I don't see how he can be penalized for the hard work that he has already put in that has placed him ahead of anyone else who has come before him. That hard work will always be the seperation.


He worked on his body more. Like I said, having the body this early allows him to use the skills he has moreso than Kobe or Tmac at the same age. Kobe might have had skills he couldnt use as much because he wasnt strong enough to execute and get to the hole and finish. 



> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Michael Jordan was the greatest ever because he worked harder than anyone(with the exception of other greats like Bird and Magic) BUT he was also blessed with physical skills the other greats weren't. In that respect Lebron is looking very similiar.


So basically, he CAN be great. That doesnt mean he will be for sure. Like I said originally, its not the hard work hes put in up to this point that will make him great, its the hard work between now and when he retires. He'll still have to work harder than any other player in the next 15 years in order to be great, because right now, hes not close to being as good as MJ or Magic. The thing hes got working to his advantage most is time, and that time isnt going to do any good if he doesnt use it wisely. 

Lebrons got a good chance to be great, like Carmelo, but I'm not willing to hand them things that special without them earning it first. I prefer taking the method of saying they have potential to be superstars in the next couple years, then go from there. Greatness is so far away for each guy if they are to do it.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Iverson is in his prime. Regardless of injuries. When he's been healthy he has played the best all-around basketball of his career.
> 
> Vince Carter is injured. Not past his prime.
> ...


I totally agree with The Krakken. These are just a bunch of excuses. Besides, players become more and more injury-prone as they get older. That's a big part of what being past your prime means. I don't understand how being injured means you are in your prime.

And dude! Do you really think that even if Vince Carter and Allen Iverson were healthy, they would be as good as they were in 2001? They both were phenomenal that year. PHENOMENAL. And they were 25 and 26, respectively. That was their peak.

Rasheed Wallace led the Blazers to the Western Conference Finals in 1999 and 2000 and one fourth-quarter collapse away from a probable championship, made the All-Star team both years, and had great stats. If that's underachieving then I don't know what you expected from him. This year, he led them to the lottery (at least, that's what level they were at while he was there), didn't come close to making the All-Star team, and had much worse stats. I don't see how he's even debatable.

And I didn't say Steve Francis and Paul Pierce were for sure past their primes. I'm just saying that given that they both got worse this year, we should keep an eye on them, that's all.



> I mean... you are saying a player's prime is 24? So that means Kirk and Jamal are almost in their primes. Wow. Talk about a disapointment. We've all been so excited about Kirk. But he's only got a few years and then it's all down hill from there. And forget about Jamal. Jamal's 24. Old timer. Make a place for him in the old folks home.


That's basically what I'm saying. A player's prime begins at around 24 and lasts until 27 or 28, sometimes earlier, sometimes later. And yeah, I think this is as good as it gets for Jamal Crawford and probably Kirk Hinrich, although Hinrich's got a year or two before I'll feel sure of myself in saying he's as good as he'll get.

I know how excited you Bulls fans have been about Jamal, and I think it's hilarious. Just like I thought it was hilarious a couple of years ago when people were saying Tim Thomas and Hedo Turkoglu were All-Star talents even though they were already 24. Sports fans don't understand when it's time to give up on a player. Al Harrington is another one, he's already 24, this is as good as it gets for him, but there are still Pacers fans who think he's All-Star material. I think they're nuts! 



> Anyhow. You have your opinions about Lebron's future. You're not going to change them no matter what I say. And you've yet to really convince me that you know more about Lebron than tbp2 or many others on these boards.
> 
> Your naysaying may be right in a lot of instances, but I think this is an instance where you are reaching a little far.


Fair enough. I don't claim to know more about LeBron than other people. I mean, tbp2 has been watching LeBron for years and watches every Cavs game, while I've seen him play about 5 games in my life, so OF COURSE he knows WAAAY more about LeBron than I ever will. At the same time, as a Cavs fan, he is very biased and prone to overrating his own players, so it's not unreasonable for me to suspect that his projection of 34/8/8 for LeBron's prime is wildly optimistic.

I spent a summer listening to Bulls fans telling me that the Bulls would make the playoffs and Eddy Curry would make the All-Star team, and that I didn't know what I was talking about because they watched the Bulls and I didn't. And they DID know more about Eddy Curry than I did. But look who was right, me. So I hope you'll forgive me if my respect for the "I watch him more than you so my opinion is more accurate" argument is not at an all time high.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I respect your opinions to be sure. I just disagree with them.

And yeah. I do think Iverson is a better player at this stage in his career. If his teammates weren't a bunch of heartless incompetents you might see the reincarnation of Isiah Thomas out there.

Larry Brown himself said last summer that Iverson was playing the best ball of his career.

Iverson is finally using his skills not just to get his own shot, but to create shots for others. His point guard instincts have definitely developed as he has matured. I think if the Sixers had more talent Allen could move back to point guard and be terrific there.

I do think injuries can cause a player to miss their prime. Like Grant Hill for instance, I think he missed his prime. Vince Carter is seriously marring his prime years.

I just think it's a little extreme to think a player is washed up at 29 when John Stockton played at a high level almost till 40, and when Jordan was an all-star at 40 after a two year layoff.


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## jberg23 (Mar 3, 2004)

don't be so quick to say that 24-28 is the prime of a player. let's not forget a certain number 23 in chicago who played probably the best ball of his life after his first retirement. jordan was a true student of a game. i think that 24-28 is when players bodies reach a physical peak but by no means does that mean that them as players have to have reached their prime. jordan realized that he didn't have the same athleticism that he did in his youth so he developed his arms and a game with his back to the basket.
as far as lebron goes i think it's just ridiculous how well he has handled everything that he's been dealt. he is carrying the weight of a team, a city, and the NBA all at the age of 19. lebron is the future, he isn't the next jordan, he is jordan's successor but he's his own player. the true test to see how great lebron will be is if he studies and loves the game the way that jordan did. if he doesn't get caught up in the millions of dollars and continues to play basketball for the love of the game he will succeed.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

It's pretty weak to base your theory of when a player's prime is on one player.

Here are the past five All-Star game roster, which I think is a pretty good approximation of the top players in the NBA, and the players' age at the time they played in the game. I got these off NBA.com for those who are interested, they have every All-Star roster on there.

*2000*:

Kobe Bryant (21), Vince Carter (23), Tim Duncan (23), Kevin Garnett (23), Ray Allen (24), Allen Iverson (24), Jerry Stackhouse (25), Rasheed Wallace (25), Michael Finley (26), Jason Kidd (26), Chris Webber (26), Grant Hill (27), Shaquille O'Neal (27), Glenn Robinson (27), Allan Houston (28), Eddie Jones (28), Alonzo Mourning (29), Dale Davis (30), Gary Payton (31), Dikembe Mutombo (33), Reggie Miller (34), David Robinson (34), Karl Malone (36), John Stockton (37)

Average Age: 27

*2001*:

Tracy McGrady (21), Kobe Bryant (22), Stephon Marbury (23), Vince Carter (24), Tim Duncan (24), Kevin Garnett (24), Ray Allen (25), Allen Iverson (25), Antonio McDyess (26), Jerry Stackhouse (26), Rasheed Wallace (26), Michael Finley (27), Jason Kidd (27), Chris Webber (27), Glenn Robinson (28), Allen Houston (29), Latrell Sprewell (30), Dale Davis (31), Vlade Divac (32), Gary Payton (32), Anthony Mason (34), Dikembe Mutombo (34), David Robinson (35), Karl Malone (37)

Average Age: 28

*2002*

Elton Brand (22), Baron Davis (22), Tracy McGrady (22), Kobe Bryant (23), Dirk Nowitzki (23), Jermaine O'Neal (23), Steve Francis (24), Paul Pierce (24), Peja Stojakovic (24), Wally Szczerbiak (24), Shareef Abdur-Rahim (25), Tim Duncan (25), Kevin Garnett (25), Antoine Walker (25), Ray Allen (26), Allen Iverson (26), Steve Nash (27), Jason Kidd (28), Chris Webber (28), Alonzo Mourning (31), Gary Payton (33), Dikembe Mutombo (35), Michael Jordan (38)

Average Age: 26

*2003*

Yao Ming (22), Tracy McGrady (23), Kobe Bryant (24), Shawn Marion (24), Dirk Nowitzki (24), Jermaine O'Neal (24), Steve Francis (25), Stephon Marbury (25), Paul Pierce (25), Peja Stojakovic (25), Vince Carter (26), Tim Duncan (26), Kevin Garnett (26), Brad Miller (26), Antoine Walker (26), Zydrunas Ilgauskas (27), Allen Iverson (27), Steve Nash (28), Ben Wallace (28), Jason Kidd (29), Jamal Mashburn (30), Shaquille O'Neal (30), Gary Payton (34), Michael Jordan (39)

Average Age: 27

*2004*

Andrei Kirilenko (22), Yao Ming (23), Ron Artest (24), Tracy McGrady (24), Michael Redd (24), Kobe Bryant (25), Jamaal Magloire (25), Dirk Nowitzki (25), Jermaine O'Neal (25), Steve Francis (26), Kenyon Martin (26), Paul Pierce (26), Peja Stojakovic (26), Vince Carter (27), Tim Duncan (27), Kevin Garnett (27), Ray Allen (28), Allen Iverson (28), Ben Wallace (29), Jason Kidd (30), Shaquille O'Neal (31), Sam Cassell (34)

Average Age: 26

SOOOO....in today's NBA, players peak right around age 26 or 27.

Asking when a player HITS his prime is a different question, because they could make the All-Star game at the beginning of their prime, in the middle of their prime, or even past their prime if they are really, really good. So of the players on that list, here each is when each started playing at All-Star caliber level. They may not have actually MADE the team that year, but they had good enough numbers to be seriously considered. This is of interest if you want to see how far along your favorite team's prospect should be in his development.

*Age 21*
Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Allen Iverson, Michael Jordan, Tracy McGrady

*Age 22*
Elton Brand, Baron Davis, Jason Kidd, Andrei Kirilenko, Jamal Mashburn, Alonzo Mourning, Glenn Robinson, Chris Webber, Yao Ming

*Age 23*
Vince Carter, Grant Hill, Allan Houston, Karl Malone, Stephon Marbury, Dirk Nowitzki, Jermaine O'Neal, Latrell Sprewell

*Age 24*
Ray Allen, Ron Artest, Dale Davis, Michael Finley, Steve Francis, Shawn Marion, Antonio McDyess, Reggie Miller, Paul Pierce, , Michael Redd, David Robinson, Peja Stojakovic, Wally Szczerbiak

*Age 25*
Jamaal Magloire, Kenyon Martin, Brad Miller, Dikembe Mutombo, Jerry Stackhouse, John Stockton, Antoine Walker, Rasheed Wallace

*Age 26*
Vlade Divac, Gary Payton

*Age 27*
Sam Cassell, Steve Nash

*Age 28*
Eddie Jones, Ben Wallace

*Age 30*
Anthony Mason

PS: It's not looking good for Jamal Crawford, guys!


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