# Breaking News - Rose/Marshall/Baxter for Davis/J. Williams/Jeffries - ESPN front page



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

The Bulls and Raptors agreed on a deal Saturday that will send Jalen Rose, Lonny Baxter and Donyell Marshall to Toronto for Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams and Chris Jefferies, ESPN's David Aldridge has learned. The deal gives the Raptors a sorely-needed second offensive weapon behind Vince Carter.


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## archie (May 30, 2003)

*bulls trade final*

Bulls trade Rose, Marshall, Baxter to Toronto for J. Williams, Davis, Chris Jefferies. (espn.com)

Discuss!


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

He's not lying.




http://msn.espn.go.com/





Let me just be the first to say, WOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :yes:


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Do you have the link to this?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/index

Looks like a done deal... it's being reported as "Breaking News"!


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

Im the only Bulls fan that feels raped???

:hurl:


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

Works for me! I'm pumped for Monday's game!


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

wow!! Bulls did trade!!

The Bulls and Raptors agreed on a deal Saturday that will send Jalen Rose, Lonny Baxter and Donyell Marshall to Toronto for Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams and Chris Jefferies, ESPN's David Aldridge has learned. The deal gives the Raptors a sorely-needed second offensive weapon behind Vince Carter.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/index


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I am pleased that we got JYD and Chris Jeffries!!


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Well, our defense just improved by leaps and bounds.

Our offense just became a huge question mark.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Well, our defense just improved by leaps and bounds.
> 
> Our offense just became a huge question mark.


Jamal with more time at 2 guard?


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## Chi_Lunatic (Aug 20, 2002)

who the hell is chris jefferies? i feel like we got raped not gettin morris peterson


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Putting AD next to Curry will hopefully do a lot to hide the latter's deficiencies and make him a more effective player.

Also, this trade almost forces us to play Jamal at the 2 quite a bit. Otherwise I have no idea where we get much scoring from.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Well, our defense just improved by leaps and bounds.
> 
> Our offense just became a huge question mark.


All three players are known for defense. 

JC is going to be the offense. Curry might be too. With chandler hurt, lets let him get well.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Chi_Lunatic</b>!
> who the hell is chris jefferies? i feel like we got raped not gettin morris peterson


Wasn't here their first round pick last year?


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

*Excuse me mods..*

Well **** me.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

*sweet*

I have to say I like it.

The sorrow of losing Lonny and Yell is surpassed by my unfettered joy of saying goodbye to Jalen Rose and his cancerous attitude.

AD and JYD are the two players I liked in all these Toronto talks. Their contracts are somewhat bitter to swallow, but I really think having Rose around this team for the next 3 years would ruin what Paxson and Skiles are trying to do.

Jamal can match what Jalen brings on offense. Sadly, I could match what Jalen brings on defense. Fizer and Jamal need to step up. Let's hope they can. I think they can. Jamal needs coaching. With Jalen out of the picture, I think he'll listen.

No excuses only means something if you are willing to back it up.


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

This trade works for a few reasons:

1. Our backup center is now Antonio Davis instead of Blount... a big upgrade.

2. We were overloaded at the 4 with Tyson/Donyell/Fizer/Baxter. We have knocked one player out of that mix leaving us with Tyson/JYD/Fizer.

3. Without Jalen, Jamal is left as our only outside scoring threat. This will HOPEFULLY lead to him playing extended minutes at the 2. Even if he stays at the 1, at least we didn't pick up another PG in the trade which would've limited Jamal's PT.

4. Erob has been playing well lately. Dumping Donyell and Jalen gets rid of 2 guys who could've played the 3, so Erob should get the minutes he's been waiting for. Don't let us down Erob!

5. We added 3 solid defensive players. We dumped Jalen who wanted to leave anyway, and we dumped Donyell who has "no c omment". More positives! Sorry to see Lonny go though!


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

I don't really know much about these guys except JYD is a pretty good scrapper, right?

How bout AD, is he any good? I haven't followed the Raptors much (not a very big fan) I heard he was pretty old, someone was callin him washed up. Is he a good rebounder/defender?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

AD is a true big man. Coming to where his wifes family lives. Maybe now he will play inspired!! He is at 9 pts and almost 10 boards a game. We traded off two "undersized Pfs"and having Fizer in the mix that made three. Ad gives us D, more size, and someone to push Eddy. AD averages 1.4 t/o 38%. 

JYD is an energy player. He always plays hard. Any deal that we made with Toronto I wanted JYD in it if Donyell was to be traded there. Well I got my wish. This guy makes things happen!! All of the time. Averages just 1.5 T/o a game. 49%! in shooting. 

Jeffries, was their first round pick last year. (I think last year) And he was known for decent defense. He has played in just two games this year for 4 minutes a game. Took 6 shots and hit three of them. 1-3 in threes. Last year he played in 51 games. 39%. 33% in threes. 3.9 pts a game. He averaged less than 4 shot attempts a game.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

We now have...a link!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1673879


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

there are 2 things i really like about his trade. first, by adding AD, we can play him next to curry, sorta like houston's cato/ming, hopefully curry can concentrate on scoring now and let AD do most of the dirty works, and 2nd by getting rid of lonny/marshall, what does that mean?? WELCOME BACK MR.FIZER!! hes gonna wreak a hovac soon. hes a beast. hopefually he gets a 30+min/game from now on.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

OK, so what's our lineup look like?

If I were the Bulls, I'd be pretty inclined to put Tyson on the IL for a while and let him try to build strength and flexibility in his back. I don't think we're gonna make the playoffs this year without a proven scorer, so let's just bite the bullet and let him miss the two months he's said to need.

In the meantime, playing next to a superb defender like AD or JYD can give Curry a chance to do something impressive.

The rest of our roster, however, is now kind of a mess of halfcourt types and full court types that I don't think fit that well together on the court. I guess I'd start Pip, Crawford, and ERob, and be pretty quick to bring in either Gill or Hinrich for Pip.

JYD is going to be a guy who makes us very undersized, but I see him kind of doing what the Suns do with Bo Outlaw and play him some at all three frontcourt positions. His lack of any perimeter game to speak of will hurt us at the 3, but he's probably a better defender than ERob, and will bring a lot of rebounding and tenacity.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

Anyone else not really upset about losing Baxter?

I didn't have a problem with him, and saw some positives, but what he did struck me as something anyone else given those minutes would do.


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## animalthug (Oct 19, 2003)

*This trade means..... Opportunity for Current Bulls*

The Bulls got significantly better on the low blocks w/ DAvis and Williams, but we still have a logjam at pf.... I guess DAvis will back up Curry, or start since Curry is strugling and still out of shape... I wish we could've gotten Mo P out of the deal, but I guess this means more playing time for E Rob at the 3.... Since Baxter is gone hopefully Fizer can get some more burn as well.... Interesting trade.... I"m thinking Chicago may not be done dealing yet, there have been a lot of suitors for Davis with the right offer maybe Paxson can swing a deal for a wing player who can score and defend (Finley Dallas)...

These rotations will be interesting to see from both clubs

PG Hinrich/ Crawford / Mason Jr.
SG Crawford/ Gill/ Jefferies
SF Robinson / Pippen/ Chandler
PF Chandler/ Williams/ Fizer
C Curry / DAvis/ Blount

Who starts in Toronto? Willl Rose or MO P be happy coming off the bench? Will VC and Rose get along? How will Rose handle playing in Canada...


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> OK, so what's our lineup look like?
> 
> If I were the Bulls, I'd be pretty inclined to put Tyson on the IL for a while and let him try to build strength and flexibility in his back. I don't think we're gonna make the playoffs this year without a proven scorer, so let's just bite the bullet and let him miss the two months he's said to need.
> ...


Count me in with the idea of putting Chandler on IR.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Hell yeah.

Jeffries a borderline lottery pick in 2002.


> 27. L.A. Lakers -- Chris Jeffries, SF, Fresno St.
> Pro Comparison: James Posey
> Not to contradict myself, but I'd be pretty surprised if Jeffries falls this far down the board. The book on Chris is that he's a great one-on-one defender with a developing offensive game. Jeffries is a bit of a tweener between the 2 & 3 positions who will need to prove his formerly damaged knee is healthy in order to be let loose on opposing shooting guards. He'd be a great pickup for L.A. where he could be the understudy to Rick Fox while spelling Kobe Bryant on occasion.


http://probasketball.about.com/library/weekly/aa062202b.htm


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## Chi_Lunatic (Aug 20, 2002)

^^ JYD is a SF?? I thought he was a PF?


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Well, our defense just improved by leaps and bounds.
> 
> Our offense just became a huge question mark.


Exactly.

Some guys will have to step up, but this was the only medication for the tumor known as defensive apathy.


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## :TorontoRaptors: (May 25, 2003)

Chris Jefferies has almost no offensive potential... he's useless.

Damn.... you've got a character guy in JYD.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Jeffries a 'lockdown' defender while at Fresno State
http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/chrisjefferies.htm


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I have to think we start with something like:
Jamal, Gill, Pip, AD, Curry

with 
Hinrich, ERob, JYD off the bench.

I keep thinking Fizer isn't ready to play, and I don't think Chandler is either.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Not to be overlooked....

Arguably the Bulls' two biggest malcontents were traded: Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall. This gives Skiles a fresh start with AD and JYD, two players with whom defensive effort has NEVER been questioned.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

this trade makes a lot of sense for both teams, but I am surprised it happened right now. Toronto has won two games in a row and are over .500


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Hinrich, Crawford, Mason
Gill, Crawford, Johnson
Pippin, Robinson, Gill, Jeffries
Tyson, Davis, JYD, Fizer
Eddy, Davis, Blount

Here's my guess as to what our lineup will look like starting out. I put Davis in back of Tyson because I'm guessing he'll be starting our next game at the 4, unless Skiles starts both Davis and JYD at Center and PF. 

Did I miss anybody?


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## Future (Jul 24, 2002)

Yes!!! I am so happy. I am disappointed Mo Peete isn't in the trade, but I'm happy Jerome Williams is in now. He's just pure hustle.


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## :TorontoRaptors: (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> this trade makes a lot of sense for both teams, but I am surprised it happened right now. Toronto has won two games in a row and are over .500


 The Skiles hiring and the 1 point win over Orlando (for Toronto) triggered it.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

HAHA. Jalen Rose in Toronto. Enjoy it Jalen.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>:TorontoRaptors:</b>!
> The Skiles hiring and the 1 point win over Orlando (for Toronto) triggered it.


That is right. You did just barely beat the magic. OK


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## KeonBackinTO (May 26, 2003)

Jefferies sucks.
He's been injured constantly, maybe more injury prone then VC. And we all know what everyone thinks of him.
As a Raps fan I'm so glad they got Jefferies over Mo Pete.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

1.) Does anyone think that the combo of Jamal/Gill can match what Rose brought to the table?


2.) Does anyone think that the Raptors will be an improved team as a result of this deal?


Me
1.) Yes.
2.) No. I don't have much faith in "Mavs East." But, I have not seen much Raptors BB this season.


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## Brian34Cook (Mar 26, 2003)

Looks alright to me! :uhoh:


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

Damn it, who is going to miss all of our last second shots now? J/K guys. I'm really worried about our scoring. We'll improve greatly defensively. Hopefully Pax has another deal in the works for another scorer.

When I saw the title of this thread, I was hoping we were involved in a three way with Washington netting us Jared Jeffries! Oh well. I remember hearing good things about Chris Jefferies when he was coming out of Fresno State. IIRC, he is a 6'8 small forward who can play defense. 

So much for Pax's interview this morning. He said he was going to wait and see what Skiles could do with the talent before he made a move. The guys interviewing him flat out asked if we could expect anything big imminently, he emphatically said no. Pax is learning how to play the media game.


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

This is a great trade because it works on so many levels. It hopefully means Jamal will take Rose's spot. Jamal was always a better Rose than Jalen was. JYD will show help teach Curry the need to be aggressive and rebound. AD gives the Bulls a great 3-4 man rotation at the 4/5. His contract is much shorter than Rose. ERob maybe will get some more playing time. We will rebound better so the fast break offense may become a reality which increases the value of having ERob. Both AD and JYD are hard working solid vets ( like Gill and Pippin and unlike Marshall and Rose). Baxter was a smart, hard working undersized and non-athletic PF. His potential is limited. Hopefully Fizer will be healthy enough to return to last year's form soon.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

toronto

AW
Carter
Rose
Marshall
Moiso

with bosha nd mopete off the bench

Bulls

Hinrich
Crawford
Pippen
Chandler
Curry

both teams get better


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> HAHA. Jalen Rose in Toronto. Enjoy it Jalen.


I love that as well. There is nothing further from the Jalen Rose image than living in Toronto. Ha ha ha.


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## :TorontoRaptors: (May 25, 2003)

Is there something wrong with the city of Toronto?


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

What I don't like is the Pippen/Gill combo that leaves us at 2-3.
Of course, not always, if we work in Crawford, E-Rob, etc..but those names don't strike me as consistent really, especially for the future.

We're gonna need to acquire (through either a deal or draft pick) a good 2 or 3 player, that can score, and hopefully defend.


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## Brian34Cook (Mar 26, 2003)

I would think Jamal, Kendall, Pip, AD, Curry for now would be the lineup!


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KeonBackinTO</b>!
> Jefferies sucks.
> He's been injured constantly, maybe more injury prone then VC. And we all know what everyone thinks of him.
> As a Raps fan I'm so glad they got Jefferies over Mo Pete.


Just for the record:

Rose/Marshall/Baxter for Davis/JYD/MoPete

does work under the salary cap. I'm guessing Pax couldn't get the Raps to include Peterson in the deal and had to settle for Jeffries instead.


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## animalthug (Oct 19, 2003)

*Chris Jefferies anyone....?*

Does anyone know much about Chris Jefferies... I know that he was pretty good at Fresno State, and he orginally drafted by the Lakers and traded on draft day for Kareem Rush (who was originally drafted by the Raptors) Does he have any promise...? I've never seen him playin in the L....


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

my thinking of the starting lineup

HInrich
Craw
Pippen
Chandler
Curry

and with Chandler hurt, put JYD in his spot for now. Davis will be ur 4/5 off the bench


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

eRob will be seeing major minutes. Count on it.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 1.) Does anyone think that the combo of Jamal/Gill can match what Rose brought to the table?
> 
> 
> ...


I think Kevin O'neal has done a great job up in Toronto. Chris Bosh has had some steller moments for them, he looks ready to step in and start at 4. Too thin for 5, although in the east you can get away with him playing there some. The addition of Donyell will help alleviate the loss of Davis and Williams up front.
Jalen will be a #2 option and will not have as much pressure in Toronto. I think he will improve their scoring greatly.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>:TorontoRaptors:</b>!
> Is there something wrong with the city of Toronto?


No, I like it. I don't believe its on the hip-hop radar, although you can correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't hear many shout outs to Toronto in songs.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>:TorontoRaptors:</b>!
> Is there something wrong with the city of Toronto?


Well yes there is!! It's not in Illinois.  :grinning:


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## animalthug (Oct 19, 2003)

*Toronto get really weak in the post....*

The raptors will suffer w/o Davis and Willliams on the low blocks.. Marshalls a decent rebounder, but he wont do it alone.... Bosh and Moiso have a long way to go to be a strong post presence..... Baxter may become a star!


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> eRob will be seeing major minutes. Count on it.


I'm fine with that SD. I like his energy and attitude this year. Hopefully he stays healthy as we are thin at 2-3.


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## Chi_Lunatic (Aug 20, 2002)

you coulda just posted this in the main trade thread....


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkg1</b>!
> 
> 
> I think Kevin O'neal has done a great job up in Toronto. Chris Bosh has had some steller moments for them, he looks ready to step in and start at 4. Too thin for 5, although in the east you can get away with him playing there some. The addition of Donyell will help alleviate the loss of Davis and Williams up front.
> Jalen will be a #2 option and will not have as much pressure in Toronto. I think he will improve their scoring greatly.


Do you think that this team will be able to stop anybody? Dictate a game physically? Do they have enough scoring now to compensate?

We'll see.


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## Chi_Lunatic (Aug 20, 2002)

man..why don't u just post in the MAIN thread? u gotta make a new thread for every thought u come up with?


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## :TorontoRaptors: (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> No, I like it. I don't believe its on the hip-hop radar, although you can correct me if I'm wrong.
> ...


 It actually is on the hip-hop radar.

You don't hear much because you're in the US... as an American, you're secluded from the rest of the world.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

*Re: Chris Jefferies anyone....?*



> Originally posted by <b>animalthug</b>!
> Does he have any promise...?


From what Raptors folk are saying, no.
But I personally have never seen him, so I can't comment.


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## Bulls4Ever (May 6, 2003)

Marshall to Raptors...   :sigh: :upset:  

Baxter to Raptors...:verysad: :verysad: :verysad: :naughty: :sigh: :upset:  :no: 

Rose to Raptors...:mob: :jump: :twave: 

Why not Fizer instead Baxter???:whoknows:


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

hes a great defender. Not good at offense. but that could be worked on


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>:TorontoRaptors:</b>!
> Is there something wrong with the city of Toronto?


Well, it depends who you ask. VC likes it. AD didn't seem to.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you think that this team will be able to stop anybody? Dictate a game physically? Do they have enough scoring now to compensate?
> ...


You're right, we'll see, kukoc4ever. I don't think Kevin O'neill will have it any other way. If Jalen thought BC was tough, O'neill will make Bill look like a cub scout with his demands and language. That will be interesting to watch.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Just for the record:
> ...


Put in MoPete for Jeffries and it'd still work...at least that's what RealGM tells me right now...



> 1.) Does anyone think that the combo of Jamal/Gill can match what Rose brought to the table?
> 
> 
> 2.) Does anyone think that the Raptors will be an improved team as a result of this deal?
> ...


I agree and certainly hope that Jamal and Gill can bring what Rose brought. But the Raptors will the Mavs the East?  Since when did KO become a Don Nelson? He's still a defensive coach.

Sure, AD was the key of the trade, but IMO, JYD will make the biggest impression in Chicago. He hustles and is a fan favorite. The only thing that I worry about is the lack of offense from the bigs. Sure, we get offense from Curry, and Davis gets us around 10 points, but JYD kinda sucks on offense.

I'm happy as a Raptors fan that we didn't give away MoPete and gave away Jeffries instead. Yeah, Jeffries is a lock-down defender, but he's been injured a lot, plus, he has close to no offensive game.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

all i know... http://nbadraft.net/profiles/chrisjefferies.htm


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## jollyoscars (Jul 5, 2003)

*Bulls Raptors trade : agreed on but not yet official*

The Raptors get: Jalen Rose, Lonny Baxter and Donyell Marshall 

While the BULLS get: Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams and Chris Jefferies

Tell me what you guys think. I would have much rather gotten rid of Fizer than Yell, but you can't always get everything.  But I am happy to get Rose out of town although this trade cannot be official until at the earliest this Monday because the league office has a break.


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## :TorontoRaptors: (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, it depends who you ask. VC likes it. AD didn't seem to.


Jerome Williams loves it here.

Last week he said... _"I live for the city of Toronto."_

Just because Davis doesn't like it doesn't make Toronto a bad place.

Once winter roles around in Chicago, you'll probably hear him ***** some more... IMO, Toronto's easily the better place to raise a family... Antonio just didn't like the weather.


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## Potatoe (Jun 17, 2002)

Am I the only one who doesn't understand this trade?

Usually teams make trades to balance out their team, is it me or do both teams now seem to have even less balance....

Toronto is now loaded with perimeter players and has crap on the inside, Chicago is now loaded on the inside and has crap on the perimeter?

What's the deal here?

I hope both teams have some other moves on the back burner because otherwise this makes no sense.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>:TorontoRaptors:</b>!
> Jerome Williams loves it here.
> 
> Last week he said... _"I live for the city of Toronto."_
> ...


Actually, I've never been to Toronto, but I hear it's a great place to live. 

I live in Manhattan now, and most of the people here don't even know there's a world outside of this city!


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

*Re: Chris Jefferies anyone....?*



> Originally posted by <b>animalthug</b>!
> Does anyone know much about Chris Jefferies... I know that he was pretty good at Fresno State, and he orginally drafted by the Lakers and traded on draft day for Kareem Rush (who was originally drafted by the Raptors) Does he have any promise...? I've never seen him playin in the L....


animalthug, no disrespect intended with what I am about to say, but the answers to both of your threads you started are in this thread, 

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64267&forumid=27

that thread was started long before your two were. So wouldn't it be easier to seek out the answers you want in there since most of the posters are in there? I would think so.

Again, I did not intend to belittle you or call you out. Just wondering why you felt the need to start two new threads on the same thing.


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## :TorontoRaptors: (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, I've never been to Toronto, but I hear it's a great place to live.
> ...


 That was my point.

Your not edumacated enough about the rest of the world.

It's not your fault... it's the system! :|


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

Overall, not a bad trade.

The Bulls needed some character- hardworking types,
and got two in AD and Junk Yard dog.

AD is past his prime, but he'll push Blount further down the
pine where he belongs. Blount's play in the loss to San Antonio
was atrocious esp. in the 3rd quarter when he kept 
lacklusterly turning the ball over.

Both JYD and AD give the Bulls a lot of versatility in the
front line with match-ups and defense.

On the down side, the Bulls gave up a lot of their perimeter
scoring. Donyell has nice range, and has been doing pretty
well this season. Rose has the range, though he's been
off target quite a bit.

W/o Rose, I can see the Bulls going to a much faster uptempo
game, since Rose always seemed to prefer the half court sets.

This game tempo will really benefit JC, ERob, Kirk and Tyson
leading to a lot more easy baskets.

Chris Jeffries is a real wild card. If it weren't for knee problems,
Jeffires may have gone in the lottery. Not sure if there is
a legitimate reason for him being on IR, but he hasn't
seen much run.

Of the 3 Bulls players leaving, I'll miss Donyell the most.
He's deifinitely a tweener...too slow to guard opposing 3's
and too long to combat the strong 4's....but he played
hard and well when he got PT.

I couldn't really stand Baxter. He took a lot of stupid fouls,
Though he has good fundamentals, he's still too undersized for
his position. I'm not sorry to see him go at all.


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## :TorontoRaptors: (May 25, 2003)

> Chris Jeffries is a real wild card. If it weren't for knee problems,
> Jeffires may have gone in the lottery. Not sure if there is
> a legitimate reason for him being on IR, but he hasn't
> seen much run.


 Hahahaha... or so you think.

The guy's offensive potential is nil.

He's a decent defensive player though... he's still weak.


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## jollyoscars (Jul 5, 2003)

sorry guys my computer has been messed up of late to where my computer doesn't progress to the current day. like when i came on just now it showed that the thread, "are tyson and eddie to blame?" as the latest thread and it has also messed up my yahoo fantasy sports so i can't see the current standings. if any1 knows how to possibly fix this if you could please help me out and sorry for making the 1,000th thread on this topic. i had no idea there were any.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> Am I the only one who doesn't understand this trade?
> 
> Usually teams make trades to balance out their team, is it me or do both teams now seem to have even less balance....
> ...


In Chicago, it's addition by subtraction.

Bottom line: Raps liked Rose better than AD and Bulls liked AD better than Rose.

I suspect that Pax felt he could live with AD and Williams in his top 8 rotation for the rest of their contracts.

As for the Raptors, if they can get Rose (and Marshall to a lesser extent) to play right, they will come out ahead big-time in the short term. The Raps got a lot more firepower and can probably live with Bosh, Baxter, Moiso and Marshall at the 4/5 in the East.


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

Pax wanted Skiles to give this team an identity. It's only taken less than a week for our team to get a new identity and Pax has molded this team in his image. If you check out our roster, our team doesn't have many wussies anymore. Eddy is the softest, and if yesterday's practice was any indication, hopefully he will get tougher. Without Jalen around, Jamal may feel pressured to actually play hard and smart, too. I think this team will be fun to watch.


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## Chi_Lunatic (Aug 20, 2002)

*Re: Re: Chris Jefferies anyone....?*



> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> 
> 
> animalthug, no disrespect intended with what I am about to say, but the answers to both of your threads you started are in this thread,
> ...


LOL..same thing i said...


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

Ztect, I was just thinking the same thing. We should be able to get out and run more now. Pax mentioned earlier today that he thought they would have been able to get out and run better than they have. He said bad defense and rebounding has kept them from running more. Looks like we took care of that problem!

BTW, Bruce Levine just said Jalen doesn't know he's been traded yet! He said he was able to tell Yell and Lonnie but couldn't locate Jalen.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kramer</b>!
> Pax wanted Skiles to give this team an identity. It's only taken less than a week for our team to get a new identity and Pax has molded this team in his image. If you check out our roster, our team doesn't have many wussies anymore. Eddy is the softest, and if yesterday's practice was any indication, hopefully he will get tougher. Without Jalen around, Jamal may feel pressured to actually play hard and smart, too. I think this team will be fun to watch.


Here, here.

Speaking of playing the right way, Fizer and Crawford have 3-6 months to make some significant adjustments or they will not be on-board any longer.


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

*Chris Jeffries*

*Chris Jeffries*

2002-03:
Averaged 3.9 points, 1.2 rebounds and 13.1 minutes in 51 games … Produced eight double-digit scoring efforts … Scored in double figures in five games in April … Averaged 11.3 points and 39.0 minutes over the final three games of the season … Averaged 8.6 points, 1.9 rebounds and 30.6 minutes in 10 games as a starter … Scored 10 points April 12 at New Jersey … Tallied nine points in a bench-high 28 minutes while recording three rebounds and three assists April 11 vs. Milwaukee … Recorded career highs of 15 points, four rebounds (tied), six field goals, four free throws and 45 minutes April 8 at Miami … Missed three games (March 26 – 30) with an upper respiratory illness … Netted eight points in 17 minutes as a starter March 21 at Miami … Netted five points in 12 minutes March 11 at Denver … Missed 10 games (Jan. 14 – Feb. 4) with a disc injury in the lower back … Scored nine points on four-of-six shooting in 27 minutes Jan. 10 vs. New Jersey … In his first NBA start Jan. 6 at Detroit, he recorded four points, three rebounds and two blocks in 36 minutes … Posted consecutive double-digit scoring efforts netting 11 points Jan. 5 vs. New Orleans and 11 points Jan. 3 vs. Cleveland … Scored a bench-high 12 points on three-of-three shooting Nov. 9 at Indiana … Made his NBA debut Nov. 1 at San Antonio. 
COLLEGE
Career averages of 12.9 points and 4.9 rebounds in 88 games ... Scored in double figures in 47 of 55 career games at Fresno State ... In 2001-02, was second on team in scoring averaging 17.3 points and 6.3 rebounds ... Shot 44.2 per cent from the field (169-382) ... Appeared in and started 21 games before missing the remainder of the season with a knee injury ... Scored in double figures in 20 of 21 games, including nine games of 20 or more points ... Led team in scoring six times ... Posted three double-doubles ... Scored 20 points, including game-winning three-point play with 10 seconds remaining, to lead team past Tulsa on Jan. 6 ... Scored a career-high 27 points at San Diego State on Dec. 8 ... Tallied 23 points and a career-high 15 rebounds Nov. 30 at UNC-Charlotte ... Named Most Valuable Player of the McCaffrey Classic ... In 2000-01, started all 33 games and finished second in team scoring (15.5) ... Led team in scoring 12 times and scored in double figures 28 times ... Recorded six 20-point games, including a season-high 24 versus San Francisco and Georgia ... Led team in dunks (44) ... Averaged 15.2 points in Western Athletic Conference (WAC) games, 10th best in the conference ... Averaged 14.0 points in two NCAA Tournament games versus California and Michigan State ... Named first-team All-Western Athletic Conference, All-Defensive Team and All-Newcomer Team ... Named WAC Newcomer of the Year by conference media ... In 1999-2000, sat out the season as required by NCAA rules after transferring from the University of Arkansas ... Did not practice with Fresno State ... In 1998-99, averaged 7.7 points and 3.9 rebounds while starting 21 of 34 games ... Led team in scoring four times ... Scoring average was fourth on the team ... Tallied a season-high 23 points versus Mississippi State ... Led Razorbacks with 16 points in first-round NCAA Tournament win over Sienna.


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## Killuminati (Jul 30, 2002)

Getting rid of Rose unfortunately had to include our best all-around player in Yell. Scoring is now gonna be a huge issue if Crawford and Curry can't pick up the slack, but at least our D should be better as already said.

This trade is a double-edged sword pretty much, we lose offense but we gain defense. Can't say im happy or disappointed with this one. 

At least Rose is gone and we have some hard workers in AD and JYD.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

Don't be so quick to dismiss Antonio Davis. Being over the hill and disinterested often look the same. Everyone knows Antonio hasn't been happy in Toronto for quite some time. Coming to Chicago and playing in front of family will do wonders.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>:TorontoRaptors:</b>!
> It actually is on the hip-hop radar.
> 
> You don't hear much because you're in the US... as an American, you're secluded from the rest of the world.


OK, then I stand corrected.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FanOfAll8472</b>!
> 
> I agree and certainly hope that Jamal and Gill can bring what Rose brought. But the Raptors will the Mavs the East?  Since when did KO become a Don Nelson? He's still a defensive coach.


I guess I don't see what other style they can play with those guys. I wonder if ONeil is happy about this?


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> 
> 
> Count me in with the idea of putting Chandler on IR.


Ditto


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Chi_Lunatic</b>!
> who the hell is chris jefferies? i feel like we got raped not gettin morris peterson


trust me the bulls are better off


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## Chi_Lunatic (Aug 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> trust me the bulls are better off


got cha...

question : was JYD starting for toronto? or was he like a 6-man?


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

The Bulls are finally making a commitment to Eddie Robinson. They must feel he's ready to produce on a consistent basis. Based on earlier reports that had Skiles setting up a first unit of Hinrich, Gill, Robinson, Marshall and Curry, I'd expect Chandler to replace Marshall if he's healthy.

That leaves us with a second unit of Crawford, Pippen, Jerome Williams, Blount and Davis. The extras would be Fizer, Mason, Johnson, Jeffries and JWill.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

I surprised that so many Bulls fans think this is a good move. I guess many of you are sick of Jalen and all, but it seems to me that you're trading the best two players in the deal and getting back an old, tremendously overpaid center who is lucky to shoot much over 40% and a hustle player who's had difficulty staying in the Raptors rotation because of his inability to understand/play in their offensive scheme.

Guess we'll see how it plays out. I think Toronto wins big-time in this deal at this point.

Ed O.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C Blizzy</b>!
> The Bulls are finally making a commitment to Eddie Robinson. They must feel he's ready to produce on a consistent basis. Based on earlier reports that had Skiles setting up a first unit of Hinrich, Gill, Robinson, Marshall and Curry, I'd expect Chandler to replace Marshall if he's healthy.
> 
> That leaves us with a second unit of Crawford, Pippen, Jerome Williams, Blount and Davis. The extras would be Fizer, Mason, Johnson, Jeffries and JWill.


How on earth are we going to score?

Skiles must think ERob is going to turn into Shawn Marion


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## trees (Jun 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Chi_Lunatic</b>!
> 
> 
> got cha...
> ...


JYD started the season starting at PF, but recently(i think last 2 games) Bosh has been starting at PF.


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## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kramer</b>!
> Without Jalen around, Jamal may feel pressured to actually play hard and smart, too. I think this team will be fun to watch.


Jamal already looks like he's been stepping up his game some. He's been much more aggressive at attacking the basket.

If Jeffries goes on IR, I suspect Linton Johnson will come off.
If not, Mason may get some run.

I see the starting line-up with

JC
Gill
ERob 
AD (if Chandler isn't healthy)
Curry

JC should get a lot of court time with Hinrich too
so the three guard rotation should be pretty well defined
Gill has been playing well

Gill can also play some 3. Pippen some 1, 2, or 3
So I don't think the back court and wings is as big an issue as
people are making it out to be.

There are no superstars in the backcourt, but there are plenty worse in the league. 

JC doesn't need to be a pure position 2. There are so many
scoring or shotting point guards in this league that I'm surprised people get so worked up over trying to make a player fit a limited type. Certainly Marbury, Billups, the other J. Williams, Nash, Arenas all get their shots and points but still are considered pg's. No one seems to label Baron Davis a 2 guard when he scores 30 points. If JC can averaged 20 and 7, consistantly create his own shot and have a major mismatch over a smaller point trying to guard him, Skiles should take advantage of whatever mismatch JC provides.


I really like the front court rotation made possible by this trade esp. when TC is healthy. AD, TC and EC can all play the 5. But having TC and AD or AD and TC on the court together will be a nice three man rotation, plus JYD really brings a ton of energy off the bench.

With the lenght of JYD and AD's contracts though, I can't see a future for Fizer on the Bulls. Unless he's signed cheap, doesn't seem to make much sense to spend that much money on the 4 spot. Most teams will wiat for Fizer to be a RFA to go after him, so he probably has limited trade value, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him moved before the trade deadline.

Again the best thing about these moves is that Blount will not see many minutes, especially if Skiles does what BC seemed incapable of doing, and that's tighten the rotation.


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## Potatoe (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> In Chicago, it's addition by subtraction.
> ...



I don't have a problem with the "value" of the players traded but as of right now the Bulls are HORRIBLE on the perimeter and Raps are DREADFULL on the inside.

I just don't see how the Bulls can compete with Pip, Kirk, Gill, and JC as their primary perimeter guys, and I have no idea how Toronto is going to have enough rebounding and interior defense to win any games.

The only way this trade seems to make sense is if both teams are packing it in, and are going to cover their deficiencies in the offseason.


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

.... 

u guys think jalen can co-exist with VC?



BTW, AD wanted to leave cause he didnt want his kids to be raised in Canada. He didnt want them to learn the metric system . AD will be a nice addition to ur squad. He is a leader, and he'll be missed in Toronto.


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

*...more on Chris Jeffries:*

Strengths: Tark basically throws Jefferies on the top scorer for the opposing team and it's welcome to 'lockdown'. A super defender, with great versatility. Very athletic, specializes in open court play and slashing to the basket.


Weaknesses: Still refining the offensive side of his game. Ball handling must improve.

Notes: Excels in many aspects of the game. Brings alot of energy, can score in a variety of ways. Has the ability to shut down the opposing players quickest player, regardless of size. Shot needs more consistency. Very athletic swingman.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> ....
> 
> u guys think jalen can co-exist with VC?
> ...


Rose will do fine there. He tried to be the #1 guy here when in fact he is not.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think both teams want to give more time to guys currently not playing big minutes.

This is going to put Chris Bosh on the floor a lot for the Raptors... and he's going to be a wonderful player... he might be the guy that really does end up a "Kevin Garnett clone" or close to it.

For us, it pretty clearly means Eddie Robinson, Jamal Crawford and to a lesser extent Kirk Hinrich are gonna get on the floor and either put up or shut up.

I honestly have no idea how it'll work out. They could tear it up or go down in flames.


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

Keep in mind that it's possible Paxson isn't done dealing.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C Blizzy</b>!
> *...more on Chris Jeffries:*
> 
> Strengths: Tark basically throws Jefferies on the top scorer for the opposing team and it's welcome to 'lockdown'. A super defender, with great versatility. Very athletic, specializes in open court play and slashing to the basket.
> ...


Looks like a guy who could suddenly step up pretty nicely if given a chance. Or maybe he's just any number of ok swing-men who never translate their game to the pros.

Either way, I'm happy to take a chance on him. Better to get a couple of young guys who can potentially fill useful roles than hang on to a career third string PF (Baxter) for dear life.


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## Jay-Ballin (Jul 18, 2003)

Just curious, who is going to play center for toronto now? Bateer?


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## Potatoe (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> For us, it pretty clearly means Eddie Robinson, Jamal Crawford and to a lesser extent Kirk Hinrich are gonna get on the floor and either put up or shut up.



Jamal and E-Rob have already had several opportunities to take on big roles, I don't see how this really affects that....

Lets not forget that with the addition of AD and JYD, Tyson and Eddie will now have "less" opportunity.


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jay-Ballin</b>!
> Just curious, who is going to play center for toronto now? Bateer?


either bateer or moiso


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

I thought you couldnt trade players that were on the IL??? Jefferies was on the IL, geez, I was wrong.


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

Besides what Davis will bring while he's on the court, he's going to apply all kinds of pressure to Curry to grow up and perform. If he doesn't he'll be back on the bench while AD starts.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Looks like a guy who could suddenly step up pretty nicely if given a chance. Or maybe he's just any number of ok swing-men who never translate their game to the pros.
> ...


i saw him play for tark and , not really in the nba he was a good player and he can play defense but he shouldn't get any real time he is a poor man's e-rob, he's athletic but not freakishly so , a slasher type he will take baxter's rightful spot on the IL, but i'd still rather have him than peterson


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> I thought you couldnt trade players that were on the IL??? Jefferies was on the IL, geez, I was wrong.


Mercer was on IL when we traded him to Indy.


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## SLSI (Nov 25, 2003)

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">
Chris Jeffries was a TOP 10 draft pick until he hurt his leg, and then dropped to late in the first round. 

He is a very good three point shooter, but thats about it right now in his career. He has the potential to become a poor man's Scottie Pippen at best.

<b>-SLSI-</b></font>


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Its not hard to figure out who the winner in this deal was. Holy cow, what a bad deal for the Bulls. How are we going to score now--Jamal is going to have to be a 30ppg scorer just for us to get near 90 points on most nights. Best of luck to Scott Skiles with this bunch. Jalen will be a perfect fit for what KO wants to do up there. He is actually a good team defender, when you establish a system. He'll be in much the same situation he was in in Indiana that he excelled at. He'll feed off of Carter. And getting Donyell Marshall too, really helps the raps. This move solidifies the raptors as a playoff team in my mind. They may be a little weak on the inside right now, but thats not a huge deal when you look around the rest of the eastern conference.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> 
> Jamal and E-Rob have already had several opportunities to take on big roles, I don't see how this really affects that....
> 
> Lets not forget that with the addition of AD and JYD, Tyson and Eddie will now have "less" opportunity.


The difference is now that we don't have Rose, we'll fall flat on our faces if Jamal and ERob are no shows... come to think of it, things really haven't changed much at all :laugh: 

Tyson and Eddy get less opportunity, but playing next to a strong defender, hopefully they get higher quality opportunities. Also, Tyson is hurting in a major way. He really needs to take a seat for a month or two


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

Pax just said that this trade frees Jamal up to play the 2 guard position. 

Looks like Kirk's the PG and Crawford will focus on becoming a scorer.


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## fear the fro (May 28, 2003)

This looks like addition by subtraction gone wrong...Davis and the JYD won't be able to contribute without taking minutes away from Curry and Chandler, and I'm skeptical as to whether Jeffries can contribute period. I guess Jalen had to go, but getting rid of Marshall will prove to be a mistake IMO. The Bulls really should have tried to figure out a way to get rid of Jalen without having to throw in any other valuable players.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

This is a good move, not a great move. It would have been a great move if we had gotten Mo Pete, but this will still make us a better team. I've always loved JYD, and Davis is still a real good big man. We definitely gave out alot more talent than we brought in, but IMO the attitudes of the players acquired versus those subtracted will more than make up that difference.


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## Bigballershotcaller (Apr 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>C Blizzy</b>!
> *...more on Chris Jeffries:*
> 
> Strengths: Tark basically throws Jefferies on the top scorer for the opposing team and it's welcome to 'lockdown'. A super defender, with great versatility. Very athletic, specializes in open court play and slashing to the basket.
> ...


that was in college man he would get smoked right now by almost anybody.Take T-Mac for example if it's jeffries on him all game T-Mac pops out 50 at least


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fear the fro</b>!
> This looks like addition by subtraction gone wrong...Davis and the JYD won't be able to contribute without taking minutes away from Curry and Chandler, and I'm skeptical as to whether Jeffries can contribute period. I guess Jalen had to go, but getting rid of Marshall will prove to be a mistake IMO. The Bulls really should have tried to figure out a way to get rid of Jalen without having to throw in any other valuable players.


I would have loved this, but I think its unrealistic. Nobody wants that contract. This trade was only made b/c we took on some contracts that Toronto didn't want.


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## Potatoe (Jun 17, 2002)

The other thing I don't get here is the fact that Mo-Peet was left out of the deal?

Wouldn't a AD+Mo-Peete for Rose + Mashal deal have worked better for both teams?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Its not hard to figure out who the winner in this deal was. Holy cow, what a bad deal for the Bulls. How are we going to score now--Jamal is going to have to be a 30ppg scorer just for us to get near 90 points on most nights. Best of luck to Scott Skiles with this bunch. Jalen will be a perfect fit for what KO wants to do up there. He is actually a good team defender, when you establish a system. He'll be in much the same situation he was in in Indiana that he excelled at. He'll feed off of Carter. And getting Donyell Marshall too, really helps the raps. This move solidifies the raptors as a playoff team in my mind. They may be a little weak on the inside right now, but thats not a huge deal when you look around the rest of the eastern conference.


Last five games, all five defeats

Rose 
11, 8, 9, 5, 7, 

Marshall: 
8, 2, 4, 13, 2. 

Gee, i wonder where we will get out scoring? Rose and Marshall quit on us the last five games. We "scored." 

baxter:
19, 10, DNP, 2, 0.


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

*Perfect time for a deal*

Pax did pick the perfect time to bring in new players. Right now the whole team is learning a new offense and defense with the addition of Skiles, so these guys won't be behind on the learning curve.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Its not hard to figure out who the winner in this deal was. Holy cow, what a bad deal for the Bulls. How are we going to score now--Jamal is going to have to be a 30ppg scorer just for us to get near 90 points on most nights. Best of luck to Scott Skiles with this bunch. Jalen will be a perfect fit for what KO wants to do up there. He is actually a good team defender, when you establish a system. He'll be in much the same situation he was in in Indiana that he excelled at. He'll feed off of Carter. And getting Donyell Marshall too, really helps the raps. This move solidifies the raptors as a playoff team in my mind. They may be a little weak on the inside right now, but thats not a huge deal when you look around the rest of the eastern conference.



Just something to consider:
Rose: 13.3
Marshall: 8.7
Baxter: 4.3
----------------
26.3 ppg

Davis 8.6
Williams 5.1
Jeffries 4.0
-------------
17.7 ppg

OK, so we're giving up 8.6ppg of offense.

How much of that slack can be taken up by Curry, Crawford, Fizer, Chandler, Hinrich?

Now the other side of the equation. We have been giving up 101.3 ppg. How many did we just shave off that total by getting two of the Raptors best 3 defenders? The raptors were giving up only 84.4ppg prior to the trade.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> Lets not forget that with the addition of AD and JYD, Tyson and Eddie will now have "less" opportunity.


actually, if Tyson and Eddy are ready to play good basketball, they will start and play big minutes. I wouldn't be surprised to see both Tyson, when healthy, AND Williams on the floor with either AD or Curry as well.

If they are not ready, we are in better shape.

Seems like the Bulls felt that AD utlimetly will better handle a smaller role in the next couple years than the cancer that he was traded for.


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## Zeos (Jun 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> I surprised that so many Bulls fans think this is a good move. I guess many of you are sick of Jalen and all, but it seems to me that you're trading the best two players in the deal and getting back an old, tremendously overpaid center who is lucky to shoot much over 40% and a hustle player who's had difficulty staying in the Raptors rotation because of his inability to understand/play in their offensive scheme.


No offense, but I'm not sure you've been following the Bulls if you think Jalen and Donyell are the two best Bulls.

Jalen is a scorer. It's what he does best. He's being out scored by two other Bulls, namely Jamal and Eddy. In fact, Jamal is leading Jalen in every statistical category but rebounds. Also, consider that Jamal and Eddy are shooting 42% and 49% respectively, while Jalen, our "best scorer," is shooting the team worst 37.5% (excluding Roger Mason and his 11 shot attempts this season). 

Then there's Tyson Chandler who is barely under Jalen in scoring. If it weren't for his back, I'm sure he'd be doing better, and doing better than 13 points and 10.3 boards in 29 minutes.

Kendall Gill is scoring more, and more efficiently than Marshall.

I know this is entirely subjective, but I would say Jalen and Donyell are the 4th and 5th best player on the team. Getting AD and JYD back, they may very well fill that 4th and 5th best players quite well.

The Bulls give up some offense, sure. But realistically, they're only giving up 20 ppg, and getting back 14. That's not a whole lot. The question is then can those two, AD and JYD, help defensively slow opponents down by more than 6 ppg? I think so. 

But then there's the part about addition by subtraction. AD and JYD fit into what the Bulls want to do, while Jalen doesn't really fit any more. The Bulls want to become better defenders, but Jalen doesn't defend. The Bulls want to run, but Jalen doesn't run. The Bulls want to control the boards, but Jalen really isn't strong on the boards. The Bulls need someone who can challenge our big men, and Jalen is a wing player.

Still, one could argue that on the talent scale, the Raptors come out ahead. But for the Bulls, this trade had little to do with talent. The Bulls HAVE talent, lots of talent, and what's that talent gotten them? 4-12. No, this team doesn't need more talent.

This team needs an identity. THAT is what this trade is about. A scrappy, tough, competitive identity. That's where the Bulls come out way ahead.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

I have a recap of the Pax interview from Espn 1000 if anyone is interested,in another thread.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Zeos</b>!
> 
> 
> No offense, but I'm not sure you've been following the Bulls if you think Jalen and Donyell are the two best Bulls.
> ...


:greatjob: Very nice post!!


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

*Re: Perfect time for a deal*



> Originally posted by <b>7thwatch</b>!
> Pax did pick the perfect time to bring in new players. Right now the whole team is learning a new offense and defense with the addition of Skiles, so these guys won't be behind on the learning curve.


Skiles is having them go through two practices a day this weekend. The timing for a new coach and big trade couldn't be any better.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

I like this deal... and heres why:

1) AD. For those of you who haven't followed AD, he is world-renowned for his work ethic. Coming out of UTEP as an undersized 4/5, he wasn't given a chance in hell of making a roster, let alone actually becoming a decent NBA player. He worked himself into a helluva player and him getting good PT alongside Dale Davis and Rik Smits in the primes of their career says a lot. 

Davis is a very capable offensive player in the post with a variety of moves however his lack of size often has him forcing bad shots. Although his prime is probably past him, he is very capable of giving us 20-30 solid minutes a night with good D and rebounding. I also like him because he is the type of guy that will give a guy an elbow in the stomach on a layup... a Charles Oakley type if you will.

In addition, he will become Eddy Curry's mentor. When Indiana drafted Al Harrington, Davis invited Harrington to move in with him and he took him under his wing. Harrington credits a lot of his development, his workout regimen and other tricks of the trade to Antonio. It is no surprise that Harrington's development slowed after Antonio was dealt and his tutoring program ended. I think Antonio can have the same impact with Eddy.

2) JYD. Every team needs a junk yard dog. Yes, the Raptors overpaid him on his current deal, but he does do quite a few things nicely. Obviously his scrappy play and defensive intensity is something we really will capitalize on first. He is a smart player who will probably give the Bulls solid D, 8-10 boards and 5 points in 25-30 minutes of relief per game. Not too shabby.

3) Chris Jeffries. I had Chris on my draft board even after his knee injury because when he was at Fresno State he was one of those guys who could do it all. He can play lockdown D as he was (don't know how much he lost) very quick and somewhat of a ballhawk. At 6'9", he is a lot like Eddie Robinson, only with a jump shot and also loves to finish at the hoop.

MIN FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG TPG BPG SPG PPG
98-99 Arkansas 21.2 44.5 30.4 48.1 3.9 1.0 2.0 1.4 0.7 7.7
99-00 Fresno St Did Not Play - Transfer Student
00-01 Fresno St 30.7 44.2 36.8 68.8 4.8 1.9 2.7 0.9 1.5 15.5
01-02 Fresno St 34.6 41.8 34.7 63.4 6.4 3.0 2.4 1.2 1.2 17.3
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS 28.0 43.6 34.8 62.8 4.8 1.8 2.4 1.2 1.1 12.9

He simply hasn't had a chance in Torono and it is unknown if he was brought to Chicago as filler or if we will give him a real shot to do something. Who knows.

In the end, I like it as we lost Rose who seemed to be spiking our team's chemistry punch but Donyell is probably going to be hard to replace. It is very clear now thought that Curry, Crawford and company will now have to grow up much quicker to replace the traded offense.

Good luck guys..


----------



## realbullsfaninLA (Jan 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>:TorontoRaptors:</b>!
> It actually is on the hip-hop radar.
> 
> You don't hear much because you're in the US... as an American, you're secluded from the rest of the world.


Toronto is known as T DOT in hip hop circles.They have a lot of talented artists up there like Kardinal Official.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>realbullsfaninLA</b>!
> 
> 
> Toronto is known as T DOT in hip hop circles.They have a lot of talented artists up there like Kardinal Official.


OK, then I'm sure Jalen will be happy there.

http://www.eagleson.com/hiphop/toronto/artists/kardinal/

Look for Jalen in the next video.


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

*As Paxson begins the reshaping of the Bulls, much in his own image as much as vision, he probably is going to latch on to the experiments of Dr. Jerry Krause when he took over the Bulls. It then was known as "addition by subtraction," the dealing of top talent for role players and future considerations to improve team chemistry.

Sidney Green, the fifth pick in the draft, went for Earl Cureton; Orlando Woolridge, the sixth pick, went for a future first-rounder; David Greenwood, the second overall pick, went for a washed-up George Gervin; Quintin Dailey, a seventh pick, was waived; Steve Johnson, acquired for Reggie Theus, was traded for Gene Banks.

It was a huge talent drain but an effort to build a sleeker, more aggressive team.

So it must be for Paxson.*

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...28smith,1,5317822.column?coll=cs-home-utility

So says Sam Smith. And to a large extent, its a fair comparision. Addition by subtraction. And I don't think Paxson's through trading. Rose and Skiles just wouldn't have worked out. Marshall opened his mouth earlier in the week expressing concerns about whether SS would treat the players like men...please! 

All three Raptor players are the kind of defenders that will help Chicago shedd its "soft" label.

As for scoring, take a look at Detroit. How many scoring options do they have? There success has been built on the defensive end with a bunch of no names. Potentially the Bulls have more scoring options than the Pistons right now.


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*Raped but got paid for it!*



> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> Im the only Bulls fan that feels raped???
> 
> :hurl:


Yeah, certainly Paxson is clearing cap space to make a run at some free agents this summer. Looks like another run at the lottery too. AD and JYD in their prime were VERY good. Now? uh uh....Chris Jeffries??? Sure the Bulls needed to play better defense and AD an JYD CAN do that...but what positions do they play...right where Curry and Chandler do, eh? and NOW that mr shoot first and pass last Rose is gone, WHOM is going to pick up on the OFFENSIVE end of the court???

The ONLY way I can see this trade a success for the Bulls is, that Jalen "Ballhog" Rose is gone! YES! :yes: 

Bad thing is, we were NOT going to the playoffs this year again, anyways.:upset:


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## Happyface (Nov 13, 2003)

I have to say i like Torontos lineup now, other than center, but they've been high on Moiso and wanted to get him playing time anyways. Jalen will excel in that environment imo, he was expected to do too much in Chicago. I think Jalen will make Chicago look really bad in this deal. Then you get Marshall too, who is has always been underrated. He plays a lanky 4, can board with anyone, and can shoot the perimeter including 3's. That alongside Vince with the year hes having is going to help him much more than AD, JYD, Jefferies ever could. In the shortrun it might look good for the Bulls to try and stabilize the team, but in the longrun its stupid.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

excellant trade... Rose was useless and Donyell was starting to tick me off...

JYD is a hard worker and Davis is that backup center we've been looking for... nice deal...


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Happyface</b>!
> I have to say i like Torontos lineup now, other than center, but they've been high on Moiso and wanted to get him playing time anyways. Jalen will excel in that environment imo, he was expected to do too much in Chicago. I think Jalen will make Chicago look really bad in this deal. Then you get Marshall too, who is has always been underrated. He plays a lanky 4, can board with anyone, and can shoot the perimeter including 3's. That alongside Vince with the year hes having is going to help him much more than AD, JYD, Jefferies ever could. In the shortrun it might look good for the Bulls to try and stabilize the team, but in the longrun its stupid.


I disagree. In the long run it frees cap space. Davis and E-rob both will have contracts ended at the same time. And in the long run we play better D. Thats always a good thing. 100 plus points allowed a game is not good.


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## jimmy (Aug 20, 2002)

I don't like this trade.

We're stacked at the 4 and 5. At least trade Fizer for something. There's no way he'll get any playing time.

I like JYD and I like the fact that Crawford will be playing the 2. Paxson should have waited.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JAF311</b>!
> I don't like this trade.
> 
> We're stacked at the 4 and 5. At least trade Fizer for something. There's no way he'll get any playing time.
> ...


But not any more stacked than we were before the trade. We traded two for two.


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*Scoring options???*



> Originally posted by <b>C Blizzy</b>!
> *As Paxson begins the reshaping of the Bulls, much in his own image as much as vision, he probably is going to latch on to the experiments of Dr. Jerry Krause when he took over the Bulls. It then was known as "addition by subtraction," the dealing of top talent for role players and future considerations to improve team chemistry.
> 
> Sidney Green, the fifth pick in the draft, went for Earl Cureton; Orlando Woolridge, the sixth pick, went for a future first-rounder; David Greenwood, the second overall pick, went for a washed-up George Gervin; Quintin Dailey, a seventh pick, was waived; Steve Johnson, acquired for Reggie Theus, was traded for Gene Banks.
> ...


R U Kidding? Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups, Corliss Williamson..RIGHT THERE are three more than the Bulls have! lol....not to mention Chucky Adkins, Lindsey Hunter, Bob Sura, Eldon Campbell...of whom ALL can hit the freeking nylon instead of drawing bulk iron like most of the Bull shooters! the Bulls will struggle to get over 80 points a game, JUST like when Pink FLoyd was here...watch.

Time to hold your collective breaths and wait for LOTTERY time.....and see which free agents will NOT come to play in chicago, THIS time, eh? I hate Rose but feel thats all we really got outta this trade, more time to wait.:sour:


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

This trade improve's the Toronto Raptors drastically.


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## Siouxperior (Jan 15, 2003)

In hindsight

A.Davis/J.Williams/Jeffries 
for
B.Miller/Artest

That one has got to hurt. But everything is easier in hindsight i guess. B.Miller and Artest are both young, Ron (though a hothead) is the best defender in the NBA. Miller is emerging as one of the best passing Centers in the entire NBA. I don't see why Chicago would want A.Davis thought, he's like 49 years old lol, with a bad contract.


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## jimmy (Aug 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> 
> 
> But not any more stacked than we were before the trade. We traded two for two.


Rose is a SG/SF- Marshall is a SF/PF

Davis is PF/C- JYD is SF/PF- with no offensive game.

At the 4 and 5- Curry, Davis, Chandler, JYD, Fizer

That's really stacked.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JAF311</b>!
> 
> 
> Rose is a SG/SF- Marshall is a SF/PF
> ...


You'r forgetting baxter. We still traded two for two. We had the same number as before. Marshall played the five a lot. 

I love JYD's game. Now this gives both Fizer and Chandler chances to heal.


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## jimmy (Aug 20, 2002)

So what's our lineup now?

Hinrich
JC
Gill
Chandler
Curry

Pippen
Jeffries
Erob
JYD
Davis


Am I forgetting someone? If I'm not, then we'll score about 80 points a game.

Monday vs. Bucks- New coach, new offense, 3 new players- gonna be a ugly, ugly game.


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## Chi_Lunatic (Aug 20, 2002)

we scored over a hundred pts in the preseason without most of our starters........i ain't worried about scoring..just defense and attitude....


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

I hate my life.

In my opinion, Donyell Marshall was the most effective player we have. Most effective and most consistent. I really hate it when we take good hard-working guys and we trade them away.

Jalen Rose, while having his problems, ought not to be hated like the second coming of Ron Mercer. I don't mind trading him, but we are losing a leader, someone that Pippen could identify as having what it takes to really lead the team.

Ron Artest (best guard on the second best team in the league) + Brad Miller (anyone notice Brad Miller getting almost a double-double a game, but dishing 5.4 dimes and averaging more than a block and a steal a game) + Ron Mercer now equals Antonio Davis (old and injury prone, I think) + JYD (good scrappy role player) + Chris Jeffries (may breakout but don't count on it).

We gave up a LOT for Jalen Rose, because someone at some point believed in his place on this team. The players have never really complained about Rose. Pippen openly endorsed him. 

In effectiveness, we lost our most consistent player, a starting quality SF/PF in Donyell, the only decent free agent we've kept in the last five off-seasons.

In importance and weight of the team's history, we've lost our most valuable player, Jalen Rose.

In best value, we've lost Lonny Baxter, a primary backup for most NBA teams with limited skills but good basketball intelligence and incredible work ethic.

We get back two very decent players and more "potential" in Chris Jeffries. I think we've improved our interior defense but we've added weight on the perimeter guys who have PROVEN NOTHING THIS SEASON.

Craw can flat out score and dish the ball, but hasn't shown up strong on the defensive side, average at best.

Hinrich has shown some serious potential but looks overaggressive on defense and opposing guards will run straight at him knowing they can draw an easy foul.

Pippen is seriously showing his age. I guess that's what happens when people get older.

Kendall Gill is a decent standout but cannot be a prime contributor.

Roger Mason Jr. hasn't gotten a chance, and probably for good reason.

Wow, I think the guy that's going to benefit the most from this deal is Eddie Robinson. He's finally going to get a chance to become the All-Star he's wanted to be for so long.

Not. Skiles is going to push him way too hard and he's going to hit his mid-season motivational wall. 

I guess the man to bear the Bulls on his shoulders will have to be Linton Johnson.

:no: 

I hate my life.

Back to the books.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Marshall didnt wanna work hard under skiles tho


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

How would Jerry Stackhouse look at SG for the Bulls?


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

*After Hiring Skiles And Trading Rose...*

Skiles will be here for the rest of the season and more. Rose isnt going to be a scapegoat any longer (At least in Chi-Town) and we may not work any other trade.

The Question: Are the Bulls headed for Playoffs or Lottery?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Bulls are officially a lottery team with little help of getting better.

We traded a 30 year old near all-star talent (yes, Rose was considered for the all-star team last season) for a THIRTY-FIVE year old former all-star.

If people whined about Rose's contract, wait a season or two when Davis is playing 8 minutes a game at age 37 for his max deal. Davis signed a 5 year $60M deal in '01. He'll be a FA in '06.

We'd have been better off doing JYD for Marshall. JYD is the only decent guy we got out of the trade.

Rose is going to be the starting PG in Toronto. At the end of this season, we're really going to regret this deal. If people regret the Artest+Miller+Mercer for Rose deal, they're really going to regret this one. I predict numerous polls on this site to that effect.

The Bulls are going to be lucky to win 15 games this season.

Paxson is proving himself to be the worst pilot I can imagine. He just jetisoned our two engines and pushed the stick so the plane is diving toward the ground.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Siouxperior</b>!
> In hindsight
> 
> A.Davis/J.Williams/Jeffries
> ...


It is amazing, all this sacrificing:

1.	Elton Brand
2.	Miller
3.	Artest
4.	Top draft picks.
5.	Five years of embarrassments.


just in order to develop Curry , who is not ready to perform now and very questionable for the future !

And speaking about future, future is very short in the professional sport.
And who said that Curry would stay in Chicago when finally he will be “developed”?
Are we are going to give him everything he will ask?

I hate Jerry. My dear friends we been screwed up by that men, big time.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Here's the <B>words</B> ESPN (SportsTicker) chose to describe Rose.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=chitortrade&prov=st&type=lgns

Rose would give the Raptors a <B>formidable</B> 1-2 scoring punch, alongside Vince Carter, who is fourth in the NBA at 23.8 points per game but has received little help. Only one other Raptor - rookie Chris Bosh - is in double figures. 

A <B>go-to guy over the past four seasons</B>, Rose is averaging only 13.4 points per game, 6.7 below his career-best total with Chicago in 2002-03. The 6-8 swingman has chipped in 4.0 rebounds and 3.5 assists - second on the team - per contest. 

Rose established himself as a <B>premier player</B> in the league during the 2000 playoffs with Indiana, when he averaged 20.8 points per game. Coming into the season, his career average was 14.4 points per contest for Denver, Indiana and Chicago.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Just for the record:
> ...


Woulda been happier with that combo, but I'm not going to moan just yet. The added defensive presence + Skiles = a whole new ballgame.

Sit back in the Barcalounger and lets see what unfolds!


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C Blizzy</b>!
> How would Jerry Stackhouse look at SG for the Bulls?


Does it matter? I don't see how we'd acquire him.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> 
> 
> Last five games, all five defeats
> ...


 EXACTLY. We lost all of those games with them putting up these numbers. Sadly these are the type of numbers we can expect from what we got back in the deal. On their best nights! So once again, where's the scoring going to come from...


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Zeos</b>!
> 
> No offense, but I'm not sure you've been following the Bulls if you think Jalen and Donyell are the two best Bulls.


No offense taken. I've only seen about half the Bulls games this season, so I'm sure that you know your team better than I do.

I did not, though, say that Marshall and Jalen were the two best Bulls. I said that they were the two best players in the deal. They're CLEARLY, IMO, better than Davis or JYD or Baxter, so they're the two best players in the deal. Whether they're the best 2 or 11th-best and 12th-best on the Bulls isn't very relevant to what I was discussing.



> Jalen is a scorer. It's what he does best. He's being out scored by two other Bulls, namely Jamal and Eddy. In fact, Jamal is leading Jalen in every statistical category but rebounds. Also, consider that Jamal and Eddy are shooting 42% and 49% respectively, while Jalen, our "best scorer," is shooting the team worst 37.5% (excluding Roger Mason and his 11 shot attempts this season).
> 
> Then there's Tyson Chandler who is barely under Jalen in scoring. If it weren't for his back, I'm sure he'd be doing better, and doing better than 13 points and 10.3 boards in 29 minutes.
> 
> Kendall Gill is scoring more, and more efficiently than Marshall.


I'd say you're entirely too fixated on scoring in your analysis... but if we want to examine what's being lost offensively I would say Chicago's perimeter shooting is crippled by this deal. I know others have said it, but Rose and Marshall were two of the Bulls' most consistent outside shooters and neither AD nor JYD are going to be able to fill that void.



> Still, one could argue that on the talent scale, the Raptors come out ahead. But for the Bulls, this trade had little to do with talent. The Bulls HAVE talent, lots of talent, and what's that talent gotten them? 4-12. No, this team doesn't need more talent.


I think you're overstimating the Bulls' talent and depth before the deal. Looking at the Bulls' roster after the trade:

PGs: Crawford, Hinrich
SGs: Gill, Mason
SFs: Pippen, ERob, Jefferies, Johnson
PFs: Chandler, JYD, Fizer
Cs: Curry, Davis, Blount

(I know that some positions might not be spot-on; Pippen, for example, can run the 1 spot, Blount can play the 4, etc.; this is just to get a high-level view on the roster makeup.)

Sorry, I don't think the Bulls were that talented before the deal and a step back talent-wise doesn't mean that they'll be any better.

Right now, the Bulls are razor-thin in the back court and Davis and JYD provide depth in an area where the Bulls already have players worth committing to in Curry, Chandler and (to a lesser extent) Fizer.



> This team needs an identity. THAT is what this trade is about. A scrappy, tough, competitive identity. That's where the Bulls come out way ahead.


Best case scenario, you're right. Realistic scenario (IMO), a bad Bulls team gets worse and if injuries hit them with any force they get MUCH worse.

Ed O.


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Does it matter? I don't see how we'd acquire him (Stackhouse).


Just a suggestion, but how about Crawford and Jay Williams. Crawford can play a little of both guard positions for the Wiz. They can also terminate Williams' contract to create cap room. And they get a RFA's contract for a contract that has more than 3 years to run.

Stackhouse gives us a legitimate SG with enough size and strength to match up with the Finley's of the world. He's a legitimate scoring threat inside and out. He proved in Detroit that he's willing to adjust his game to suit the needs of the team. He's a great FT shooter who draws a lot of fouls.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> EXACTLY. We lost all of those games with them putting up these numbers. Sadly these are the type of numbers we can expect from what we got back in the deal. On their best nights! So once again, where's the scoring going to come from...


Once again, where's the defense going to come from in Toronto?

We're giving up 8.6 points a game in the trade.

How much of that can be made up by guys like Jamal getting more points? Some.

How much of that can be made up by the fact that we've given up two crappy defenders for two good defenders? Even more.

I don't want you to take this as personal criticism, but I find it very interesting that you and a couple of other guys that have been really big supporters of Jamal seem to be really against this trade. To me, this trade is the best think to happen to Jamal in quite a while. It seems to me it opens him up for his most natural role, and it gives him a cast that better suits his strengths (running) and better hides his weaknesses (defense). If you really believe Jamal is gonna get it done though, I would think that now is the time he's gonna step up and start winning games for us. Yet you guys who are his biggest fans seem to think this is a bad day for the Bulls. 

I've got a theory as to why that is, and I'd like your response to it (as well as that of any other guys that fit in the category and wan to put on a happy face and talk about it ).

I think you guys like Jamal because you systematically underrate the role of defense. While you'll admit he's not a very good defender, you emphasize and think offense is way more important. Or, you don't see good vs. bad defense. I don't know what, but I see a big offensive emphasis.

And I think you guys are looking at this trade as a bad thing for the same reason. You're looking at the numbers that Rose and Marshall put up, and thinking we'll never replace them (never mind that this year they've been very replaceable looking numbers). Again, much respect for offense, little respect for defense.

So is this an accurate conclusion on my part? If not, why? If so, why so little respect for D?

Is it so hard to believe that ERob, Jamal, and Kirk will score more than they do now in more minutes and with teammates that can take advantage of their athleticism to run the court? And is it so hard to believe that replacing two of the worst defenders on a very porus defensive team with two of the best defenders off of a very good defensive team will reduce the number of points we need to make up?

Of course, theory and reality are different things. Maybe Jamal will stink things up and AD and ERob will be injury prone wastes. But I see a good case for this trade working for us.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C Blizzy</b>!
> 
> 
> Just a suggestion, but how about Crawford and Jay Williams. Crawford can play a little of both guard positions for the Wiz. They can also terminate Williams' contract to create cap room. And they get a RFA's contract for a contract that has more than 3 years to run.
> ...


It's certainly worth considering. I commented some more over in this thread.


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## bballer27 (Aug 21, 2003)

so they finnaly do the trade


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Or maybe here's the dark side of the trade:

The Raps just play a complete drag-*** slow down game that doesn't let anyone score any points. Even without Vince Carter (got hurt in the game) JYD and AD on the floor tonight, Miami only has 60 mid-way into the fourth quarter.

Maybe Pax got duped into taking a couple of guys who make no appreciable difference... you could replace them with Jerome Moiso and Menk Batteer and not miss a beat.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Here's the <B>words</B> ESPN (SportsTicker) chose to describe Rose.
> 
> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=chitortrade&prov=st&type=lgns
> ...


Premier, then. Go to guy? averaging 13 pts a game for us. He quit on us. That being said all of a sudden Jalen will light it up in Toronto. He will. But he clearly was going through the motions. And his defense? He scored 13 a game but most nights he was out scored by the person he was guarding. 

Yes he should be be the #2 punch there. He didnt want to be that here. Rose played well for us when he was traded from Indy. Thats what he does! I would be surprised if he put up 30 plus points in his first game, which should make every bulls fan as mad a hell. No not at the trade, at Jalen for not earning his money when he was with us this season! 

I will miss Donyell. I really will. But it seems he too quit on us this last road trip.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ed O, Paxon appears to have a plan in place. This thing is not going to get turned around overnight. Looking at the big picture, losing Jalen and Donyell is not somethign that will criple the development of this team. Jalen had to go. So we may struggle a little offensively. Big deal, we're 4-12. We're clearly not as good as many thought we would be. We need to start establishing roles and find out what some of the younger guys are truly capable of. With Jalen around, some of these things would be a lot more difficult. Some of the beat guys were saying Donyell didn't have the best attitude as of late and that he was not happy here. Do we need the younger guys being around disgruntled vets? No! This move had to be made.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> How on earth are we going to score?
> ...


You know .. I said over the summer that I thought Eddie Robinson could be that type of player 

I still think that 

He has all the tools .. just needs tweaking and having the right complements in place


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

Miami 78
Toronto 66










*Jalen Rose:* *"HERE I COME TO SAVE THE DAY!" THAT MEANS THAT MIGHTY MOPE IS ON THE WAY!*


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> 
> 
> You know .. I said over the summer that I thought Eddie Robinson could be that type of player
> ...


I'd really like to see ERob start taking people off the dribble and generally being safe with the ball in his hands. If that happened, I'd see the comparison a lot more.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

I believe that E-Rob can turn into a ricky davis. He's been wanting to step up (profanity and saying that some players just want to score and don't want to play D. and now's his chance (new coach Skiles says no preconceived thoughts of his players)

E-Rob better step up. He does have all the tools and athleticsm. I can see him blow up. Who needs stackhouse? I don't want Crawford being the only go to guy. 

Also does this mean Linton is off the IL and Jefferies on it? or Roger?

Score 670: www.rickbrunson.com OMG LOL :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> I believe that E-Rob can turn into a ricky davis. He's been wanting to step up (profanity and saying that some players just want to score and don't want to play D. and now's his chance (new coach Skiles says no preconceived thoughts of his players)
> 
> E-Rob better step up. He does have all the tools and athleticsm. I can see him blow up. Who needs stackhouse? I don't want Crawford being the only go to guy.
> ...


"I wish that intoxicating thrill I always get from negotiating trades involving gigantic, unwieldy contracts could last forever!" exclaimed Glen Grunwald in a recent phone interview with Rick Brunson .com. "Unfortunately, the high didn't last this time, and *I started getting really nervous about the fact that Jalen Rose's game ain't much better than Mo-Pete's these days, and he costs 14 million bucks! Oooo, I feel a flashback coming on again!*"
Read More...


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## Athlon33.6 (Jul 31, 2003)

Thank God Rose has been traded!  I just wish we would of have also gotten Peterson.


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## allenive21 (Jul 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Athlon33.6</b>!
> Thank God Rose has been traded!  I just wish we would of have also gotten Peterson.


Yeah I agree, I was really hoping that Mo-Pete would have ended up here in Chicago. I guess that they couldn't convince the Raps to add him though.


----------



## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd really like to see ERob start taking people off the dribble and generally being safe with the ball in his hands. If that happened, I'd see the comparison a lot more.


This however is not a big part of Marion's game.. he's just not renowned in this way

In fact from seeing him up close .. his skills in this area are only so so at best 

Like the Kenyon Martins and the Richard Jeffersons of the world .. these players are at their best when others are creating for them OR when they create the opportunity for themselves by using their length/strength to trigger the break 

I really do think he can position himself to this same level with the right accompanying guard play


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> I believe that E-Rob can turn into a ricky davis.


He hasn't got the handle / passing game of Davis


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## Chi_Lunatic (Aug 20, 2002)

BOTTOM LINE :

we ALL should be a bit excited. Of course we don't have a T-MAC/A.I/STARBURY type player on our team but we just got REALLY good defensivly. If you were sick of our team gettin' blown out, your prayer's have been answered. Only problem now is, we just won't score a TON of points LOL. I see our team being sort of a 'pistons' type of team. Alot of role players, play great d but don't score in bunches like a mavs or kings type of team who are ONLY known for offense. We got a brand new coach who wants to start a brand new system. About damn time, because I was sick of this team TRYING to run the triangle with the bunch we've had the last couple years. Besides the fact that we don't have a GO-TO-GUY (well, yet atleast) we're pretty much a new squad. I just want our team to be a decent team in this league again. 5 years of gettin' beat the hell up is just too damn much. I personally would like to sign a PAU GASOL type of player to our team though. Anyways, the bulls (as of next week) :

guards :

hinrich
crawford
williams (ir)
mason
gill

fowards :

jefferies
robinson
fizer
williams
chandler
pippen
Johnson

centers :

curry
davis
blount

I hope Jay Williams comes back to the team next year. We'll finally have that TRUE point guard but I know I'm just being selfish LOL. I don't even know if he started walking again yet . Eddy & Jamal should be able to average 18 pts a piece EASY for the rest of the season though. Oh & Please waive or trade Mason & Blount in the offseason please.


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## Happyface (Nov 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> 
> 
> You know .. I said over the summer that I thought Eddie Robinson could be that type of player
> ...



lol :laugh:


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> EXACTLY. We lost all of those games with them putting up these numbers. Sadly these are the type of numbers we can expect from what we got back in the deal. On their best nights! So once again, where's the scoring going to come from...


1) remember who those games were played against. The losses were no suprise

2) IMO we will gain back much more in the points deferential simply because we got rid of to crappy defenders and got two very good defenders and rebounders.

3) This is just speculation at this point, but I expect Curry and Crawford, not the most cerebral players in the world, to benefit greatly from a simplified offense. They will be able to play more and think less, and I think you will see both of them start to really get it going given a little time to adjust.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

Wow... our team character has totally taken a 180 turn for the better.

At least watching a Bulls game won't be painful now, because even when we lose we should be losing with heart.

Figuring Crawford and Curry put up around 20 a game now (here's hoping, cause who's gonna score?) who else is scoring? Pip, Gill and Chandler with 10 each gets us to 70... 25 more from AD, JYD and E-Rob? I guess it could work.

More realistically, 15 from Craw and Curry, a little less from Gill, a little more from Tyson, more from AD, JYD and E-Rob and Hinrich with 7-9 points a game... I think if we can score 95 points we will win a lot of games with this team.

Exciting stuff, can't wait til Monday... sucks that AD, JYD and Jeffries can't practice with us this tommorow.


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## Potatoe (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> This trade improve's the Toronto Raptors drastically.



It most certianly does not.....


The raps have virtually no interior defense, and will get killed on the boards every night. 

You can't win basketball games without some sort if interior presence.

It's a good thing the Raps play in the East because if they played in the West with that Horrible front court, they probabbly would have the worst record in basketball.


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## Happyface (Nov 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dont sleep on Donyell


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## Nobull1 (Oct 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Happyface</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Dont sleep on Donyell


Yell has never controlled the paint. He is a good Tonto but he is not the lone ranger


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> This gives Skiles a fresh start with AD and JYD, two players with whom defensive effort has NEVER been questioned.


OK then. As long as AD is getting the ball then his defence will never be questioned. I can imagine what the correlation between his effort on defence and lowered playing time will be.


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