# The worst starting backcourt in Cavs history?



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/jh_ALL_PER.htm

If you play enough minutes you get ranked by knickerblogger in the link above. Out of 168 players based on PER, we have the 167th and 168th (yes the worst players in the league by this meausre) starting for us. When you make the old Ricky Davis/Smush Parker backcourts look good you know you're in trouble.

<table width="800"><tbody><tr class="headorange"><td width="21">RANK​</td> <td width="21">TEAM​</td> <td width="250">NAME​</td> <td width="21">POS​</td> <td class="colSpacer" width="1"> </td> <td width="21">G​</td> <td width="35">MIN/G​</td> <td width="45">PTS/40​</td> <td class="colSpacer" width="1"> </td> <td width="40">eFG​</td> <td width="40">FT%​</td> <td width="40">3P%​</td> <td width="40">TS%​</td> <td width="40">FT/FG​</td> <td class="colSpacer" width="1"> </td> <td width="40">PPR​</td> <td width="40">AST-r​</td> <td width="40">TO-r​</td> <td width="40">REB-r​</td> <td width="40">USG-r​</td> <td class="colSpacer" width="1"> </td> <td width="44">PER​</td> </tr> <tr class="greyrow"> <td>160​</td> <td>NJN​</td> <td>Antoine Wright​</td> <td>GF​</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 19</td> <td> 31.8</td> <td> 12.1</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 47.0</td> <td> 68.6</td> <td> 27.9</td> <td> 49.60</td> <td> 14</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 1.2</td> <td> 15.2</td> <td> 7.2</td> <td> 6.3</td> <td> 14.6</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td>10.20​</td> </tr> <tr> <td>161​</td> <td>MEM​</td> <td>Darko Milicic​</td> <td>FC​</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 12</td> <td> 28.5</td> <td> 10.8</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 43.3</td> <td> 48.3</td> <td> 0.0</td> <td> 44.80</td> <td> 16</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> -3.7</td> <td> 10.1</td> <td> 15.9</td> <td> 13.1</td> <td> 14.9</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td>9.86​</td> </tr> <tr class="greyrow"> <td>162​</td> <td>SAC​</td> <td>Mikki Moore​</td> <td>FC​</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 20</td> <td> 26.6</td> <td> 10.7</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 51.3</td> <td> 73.0</td> <td> 0.0</td> <td> 55.30</td> <td> 24</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> -2.9</td> <td> 8.3</td> <td> 14.9</td> <td> 11.9</td> <td> 11.8</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td>9.71​</td> </tr> <tr> <td>163​</td> <td>WAS​</td> <td>DeShawn Stevenson​</td> <td>SG​</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 20</td> <td> 26.4</td> <td> 10.4</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 42.8</td> <td> 61.3</td> <td> 30.8</td> <td> 45.20</td> <td> 14</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 1.7</td> <td> 21.6</td> <td> 10.3</td> <td> 6.7</td> <td> 14.5</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td>8.44​</td> </tr> <tr class="greyrow"> <td>164​</td> <td>SAS​</td> <td>Bruce Bowen​</td> <td>SF​</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 20</td> <td> 30.0</td> <td> 7.6</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 55.3</td> <td> 60.0</td> <td> 43.4</td> <td> 56.10</td> <td> 9</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 0.6</td> <td> 18.4</td> <td> 9.9</td> <td> 6.5</td> <td> 8.7</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td>8.29​</td> </tr> <tr> <td>165​</td> <td>CHI​</td> <td>Kirk Hinrich​</td> <td>G​</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 18</td> <td> 31.8</td> <td> 13.0</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 38.0</td> <td> 94.4</td> <td> 23.5</td> <td> 43.10</td> <td> 17</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 2.0</td> <td> 26.1</td> <td> 14.1</td> <td> 5.0</td> <td> 21.1</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td>8.18​</td> </tr> <tr class="greyrow"> <td>166​</td> <td>NYK​</td> <td>Quentin Richardson​</td> <td>GF​</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 18</td> <td> 31.8</td> <td> 8.9</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 37.7</td> <td> 57.1</td> <td> 28.1</td> <td> 38.80</td> <td> 5</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> -0.3</td> <td> 13.8</td> <td> 10.1</td> <td> 12.1</td> <td> 14.0</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td>6.76​</td> </tr> <tr> <td>167​</td> <td>CLE​</td> <td>Larry Hughes​</td> <td>G​</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 7</td> <td> 27.1</td> <td> 13.3</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 34.0</td> <td> 80.0</td> <td> 29.4</td> <td> 38.60</td> <td> 16</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> -2.1</td> <td> 13.6</td> <td> 12.7</td> <td> 4.5</td> <td> 21.4</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td>6.51​</td> </tr> <tr class="greyrow"> <td>168​</td> <td>CLE​</td> <td>Aleksandar Pavlovic​</td> <td>UN​</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 18</td> <td> 27.7</td> <td> 12.4</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> 39.8</td> <td> 71.0</td> <td> 30.6</td> <td> 42.90</td> <td> 13</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td> -1.7</td> <td> 13.2</td> <td> 12.4</td> <td> 4.9</td> <td> 18.0</td> <td class="colSpacer"> </td> <td>5.96​</td></tr></tbody></table>


----------



## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

Worst back court in the NBA. Ever?


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Yeah, we're looking at worst backcourt in the history of the NBA, not just the Cavs.


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Ruff Draft said:


> Worst back court in the NBA. Ever?


If this keeps up and the coach keeps Gibson/Devin Brown on the bench then it's a distinct possibility


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Knickerblogger isn't working today.That page only shows lebron with 16 games played instead of 24 or whatever it is...Must have mixed up his spreadsheet with one from two weeks ago.Manu was still second in PER...Hollinger has him 5th today


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>*281*</TD><TD align=left>*Larry Hughes**, CLE*</TD><TD>*17*</TD><TD>*27.7*</TD><TD>*.321*</TD><TD>*.886*</TD><TD>*.401*</TD><TD>*14.8*</TD><TD>*13.0*</TD><TD>*21.4*</TD><TD>*2.1*</TD><TD>*9.1*</TD><TD>*5.4*</TD><TD class=sortcell>*7.38*</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>282</TD><TD align=left>Quentin Richardson, NYK</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>31.2</TD><TD>.320</TD><TD>.517</TD><TD>.400</TD><TD>13.5</TD><TD>8.5</TD><TD>13.9</TD><TD>3.9</TD><TD>18.8</TD><TD>11.1</TD><TD class=sortcell>7.24</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>283</TD><TD align=left>Eddie Jones, DAL</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>16.7</TD><TD>.333</TD><TD>.333</TD><TD>.429</TD><TD>36.8</TD><TD>12.3</TD><TD>9.7</TD><TD>1.6</TD><TD>14.3</TD><TD>8.2</TD><TD class=sortcell>7.22</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>284</TD><TD align=left>Acie Law, ATL</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>18.4</TD><TD>.375</TD><TD>.800</TD><TD>.439</TD><TD>26.3</TD><TD>14.7</TD><TD>16.8</TD><TD>1.1</TD><TD>6.1</TD><TD>3.5</TD><TD class=sortcell>7.14</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>285</TD><TD align=left>Quincy Douby, SAC</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>12.3</TD><TD>.357</TD><TD>.882</TD><TD>.441</TD><TD>10.3</TD><TD>15.2</TD><TD>18.4</TD><TD>3.2</TD><TD>10.1</TD><TD>6.7</TD><TD class=sortcell>7.10</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>286</TD><TD align=left>Charlie Bell, MIL</TD><TD>29</TD><TD>19.6</TD><TD>.275</TD><TD>.828</TD><TD>.372</TD><TD>32.6</TD><TD>10.6</TD><TD>15.3</TD><TD>2.1</TD><TD>11.4</TD><TD>6.6</TD><TD class=sortcell>6.92</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>287</TD><TD align=left>Jared Jeffries, NYK</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>15.8</TD><TD>.393</TD><TD>.421</TD><TD>.412</TD><TD>13.8</TD><TD>18.0</TD><TD>11.0</TD><TD>8.9</TD><TD>13.8</TD><TD>11.3</TD><TD class=sortcell>6.72</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>288</TD><TD align=left>Corey Brewer, MIN</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>24.4</TD><TD>.332</TD><TD>.722</TD><TD>.385</TD><TD>16.4</TD><TD>12.9</TD><TD>14.9</TD><TD>5.2</TD><TD>16.4</TD><TD>10.6</TD><TD class=sortcell>6.63</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>289</TD><TD align=left>Jarron Collins, UTH</TD><TD>32</TD><TD>12.9</TD><TD>.488</TD><TD>.644</TD><TD>.565</TD><TD>19.2</TD><TD>13.9</TD><TD>7.8</TD><TD>7.0</TD><TD>11.3</TD><TD>9.2</TD><TD class=sortcell>6.14</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>290</TD><TD align=left>Jeff McInnis, CHA</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>22.9</TD><TD>.383</TD><TD>.800</TD><TD>.424</TD><TD>40.6</TD><TD>16.1</TD><TD>13.2</TD><TD>1.8</TD><TD>6.7</TD><TD>4.2</TD><TD class=sortcell>5.94</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>291</TD><TD align=left>Casey Jacobsen, MEM</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>12.1</TD><TD>.355</TD><TD>.846</TD><TD>.487</TD><TD>10.5</TD><TD>10.5</TD><TD>10.0</TD><TD>1.5</TD><TD>12.0</TD><TD>6.8</TD><TD class=sortcell>5.55</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>*292*</TD><TD align=left>*Sasha Pavlovic**, CLE*</TD><TD>*28*</TD><TD>*26.5*</TD><TD>*.338*</TD><TD>*.723*</TD><TD>*.414*</TD><TD>*13.7*</TD><TD>*12.2*</TD><TD>*17.1*</TD><TD>*2.5*</TD><TD>*9.1*</TD><TD>*5.7*</TD><TD class=sortcell>*5.45*</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>293</TD><TD align=left>Brian Scalabrine, BOS</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>9.6</TD><TD>.320</TD><TD>.875</TD><TD>.439</TD><TD>22.0</TD><TD>16.2</TD><TD>13.1</TD><TD>6.2</TD><TD>10.9</TD><TD>8.7</TD><TD class=sortcell>4.95</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>294</TD><TD align=left>Trenton Hassell, DAL</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>14.8</TD><TD>.438</TD><TD>.000</TD><TD>.448</TD><TD>19.7</TD><TD>7.6</TD><TD>8.9</TD><TD>2.7</TD><TD>7.1</TD><TD>5.0</TD><TD class=sortcell>4.94</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>295</TD><TD align=left>Thabo Sefolosha, CHI</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>11.5</TD><TD>.312</TD><TD>.625</TD><TD>.360</TD><TD>17.1</TD><TD>17.1</TD><TD>18.0</TD><TD>3.9</TD><TD>16.3</TD><TD>9.7</TD><TD class=sortcell>4.79</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>296</TD><TD align=left>Kenny Thomas, SAC</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>13.0</TD><TD>.421</TD><TD>.000</TD><TD>.407</TD><TD>17.7</TD><TD>28.6</TD><TD>9.5</TD><TD>7.9</TD><TD>18.0</TD><TD>12.9</TD><TD class=sortcell>3.04</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>297</TD><TD align=left>Primoz Brezec, DET</TD><TD>25</TD><TD>12.1</TD><TD>.440</TD><TD>.556</TD><TD>.454</TD><TD>10.0</TD><TD>22.5</TD><TD>14.9</TD><TD>6.8</TD><TD>10.1</TD><TD>8.5</TD><TD class=sortcell>2.98</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>298</TD><TD align=left>Jamaal Magloire, NJN</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>12.9</TD><TD>.311</TD><TD>.452</TD><TD>.358</TD><TD>8.1</TD><TD>24.2</TD><TD>14.5</TD><TD>8.7</TD><TD>30.3</TD><TD>19.4</TD><TD class=sortcell>2.18</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>299</TD><TD align=left>Jason Collins, NJN</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>17.5</TD><TD>.419</TD><TD>.250</TD><TD>.389</TD><TD>21.1</TD><TD>26.4</TD><TD>5.5</TD><TD>6.3</TD><TD>9.4</TD><TD>7.8</TD><TD class=sortcell>1.16</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Diable said:


> Knickerblogger isn't working today.That page only shows lebron with 16 games played instead of 24 or whatever it is...Must have mixed up his spreadsheet with one from two weeks ago.Manu was still second in PER...Hollinger has him 5th today


Yeah just noticed that. We're still the worst starting backcourt in Cavs history thought . None of those other players in the bottom of Hollinger's stats start


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

And I don't think Hollinger's are 'qualified' numbers.

Holy crap.


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Quentin Richardson is playing 31 minutes per game...Not like he's a lockdown defender either...And Jeff McInnis started for the bobcats last night...He has another dimension of suckiness you guys haven't seen in awhile.


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Diable said:


> Quentin Richardson is playing 31 minutes per game...Not like he's a lockdown defender either...And Jeff McInnis started for the bobcats last night...He has another dimension of suckiness you guys haven't seen in awhile.


We we have TWO players of that calibre starting though . I also have no clue why Isiah plays Richardson that much: the Knicks have plenty of at least mediocre players on the bench.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Is it worse than Eric Snow-Larry Hughes though? I guess at least Eric didn't turn the ball over and played good defense on shooting guards.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Is it worse than Eric Snow-Larry Hughes though? I guess at least Eric didn't turn the ball over and played good defense on shooting guards.


I guess that's hard to say. Snow hurt us more than the stats, though. Everyone _knew _he can't shoot, so they'd mercilessly double off him and pack the lane. Sasha has somehow gained the reputation as a shooter, so it keeps the defense a little more honest. They're starting to catch on, though.


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Is it worse than Eric Snow-Larry Hughes though? I guess at least Eric didn't turn the ball over and played good defense on shooting guards.


You forgot that has Hughes has regressed. I know he wasn't that good last year but he's been atrocious this year versus just bad last year


----------



## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Is it worse than Eric Snow-Larry Hughes though? I guess at least Eric didn't turn the ball over and played good defense on shooting guards.


I'd say no. That's actually the worst possible backcourt to pair with Lebron if you think about it

Amazing that he could still drive the lane with those 2 on the perimeter


----------



## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

"We may not be better than you but we are taller!" ~Sasha


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

"My defense _is _my offense." - Sasha


----------



## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

Brandname said:


> "My defense _is _my offense." - Sasha


One could only imagine how bad his d would be if this is true lol


----------



## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

It gets better :biggrin:



> There appears to be no shortage of potential destinations for Parker, who Riley confirmed has been shopped in trades in recent weeks.
> 
> Cleveland, Boston, Houston and Golden State are believed to be among the teams the Heat has talked with regarding a deal. Parker has missed the past 18 games since his Nov. 27 altercation with a female valet attendant at a Miami condo.


- Miami Herald


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Smush played alright with Kobe. Certainly better than Hughes has played in his entire career as a Cavalier.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Smush would be a clear upgrade over Larry


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Smush's big problem is that he's delusional.He honestly believes that he's a great player and that the coach should treat him like he was.So long as he's starting and he gets along with the coach he could help out,but then if the coach tells him to do something he doesn't like he starts acting like some sort of crazy prima donna.Hard to say whether or not he could really help anyone since he hasn't seen much PT in a long time.


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

> *NEW ORLEANS: Right now, the Cavaliers are insulting the history and traditions of the game of basketball.
> *
> As John Wooden or any other veteran coach will gladly explain, a comprehensive team should have a point guard and a shooting guard. Or, if you prefer today's terms, a ''one'' and a ''two.'' These are titles that relate to the guards' supposed roles on offense, of course.
> For the past month, the players the Cavs are starting at those positions are simply masquerading.
> ...


More at:
http://www.ohio.com/sports/cavs/12932437.html


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Diable said:


> Smush's big problem is that he's delusional.He honestly believes that he's a great player and that the coach should treat him like he was.So long as he's starting and he gets along with the coach he could help out,but then if the coach tells him to do something he doesn't like he starts acting like some sort of crazy prima donna.Hard to say whether or not he could really help anyone since he hasn't seen much PT in a long time.


If he never played a minute for the Cavs he'd still be an upgrade over Larry Hughes.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

And I whine about Damon Stoudamire and Mike Miller...

I have no idea why they even bothered with Pavlovic's holdout. I would have just cut ties altogether. Guy's horrible.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Rawse said:


> And I whine about Damon Stoudamire and Mike Miller...
> 
> I have no idea why they even bothered with Pavlovic's holdout. I would have just cut ties altogether. Guy's horrible.


The thing is, he _wasn't_ last year. He's significantly worse this year.


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Sasha has always been dumb on the basketball court but he was able to shoot decently and finish at a much better rate last year. I think it's either defenses maybe actually bothering doing a scouting report (or it became more accurate and his weaknesses spread around the league) on a guy who broke out only halfway through last year and/or he didn't have his legs because of his holdout and that now has affected his confidence


----------



## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

^Or he has Larry Hughes syndrome (aka "career year = contract year")


----------



## TheBowski (Jun 12, 2002)

They may not even be the worst in cavs history. We've had quite a few awful point guards since Andre Miller left (Smush, Milt Palacio, Eric Snow, Kevin Ollie). And who can forget the legendary Darius Miles point guard experiment. I don't remember exactly who they were starting along side, but if Ricky Davis was the small forward, it is a good bet Miles/Palacio/Smush + whoever (wagner?) were worse than what we have now. Say what you will about Hughes (I hate him), but I'd rather have him at point guard than Miles. Plus, we didn't trade Andre Miller to get Hughes.


Looking back through past stats, I also see that Ira Newble started quite a few games his first two years here. If he ever happened to start at the same time as Snow or *gulp* Kevin Ollie(and his awful mustache), that is the worst backcourt ever. It could even be argued that Newble and McInnis is worse than what we have now.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Newble played the 3 back then though. And Lebron played the 2 under Silas. I remember the pain of how long it took for Silas to figure out to run the offense through Lebron.

Remember back when Ricky Davis thought he was better than Lebron? Hell he probably still thinks he's better.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Ruff Draft said:


> Worst back court in the NBA. Ever?


No way man. 

Greg Anthony and Blue Edwards.

Kevin Edwards and Rory Sparrow.

Avery Johnson and Mario Elie.

Besides Pavlovich and Hughes don't both start.


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Huh? Both Pavs and Hughes start it's just Gibson finishes games. Danny Ferry would give up a finger to get an avery johnson and mario elie backcourt lol

Our backcourt is becoming like our frontcourt. Gooden/Z start but everyone knows AV will finish the game at one of those two spots. Same thing with Boobie this year


----------



## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

futuristxen said:


> Newble played the 3 back then though. And Lebron played the 2 under Silas. I remember the pain of how long it took for Silas to figure out to run the offense through Lebron.
> 
> Remember back when Ricky Davis thought he was better than Lebron? Hell he probably still thinks he's better.


yea now he's just replaced Lebron with Wade..


----------



## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Newble played the 3 back then though. And Lebron played the 2 under Silas. I remember the pain of how long it took for Silas to figure out to run the offense through Lebron.
> 
> Remember back when Ricky Davis thought he was better than Lebron? Hell he probably still thinks he's better.


Newble wasn't that bad back then - he was more athletic. He was better than Hughes at least.

And yeah the Ricky D. thing was hilarious. Lebron was better than him as like a junior in HS (literally) but Ricky acted like he was the star of that team. Still Paxson got raped in that trade - Davis/Mihm is worth more than what we got back.


----------

