# OT: Greatest Small Forward of All Time



## Stevenson (Aug 23, 2003)

I think this will be more competitive than the MJ romp, we'll see.

Hard to pick between some of these guys, but I say Bird - not for athleticism but his drive and court smarts put him in a league of his own.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Bird Easily. Lebron might surpass him at some point though


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

I pick Bird because I just love him and his style of play

One of my favorite players ever, along with Scottie, so it's tough. 

But Bird is my final answer.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

I probably should have voted 'Bird', just because of his phenomenal shooting and scoring ability, but I voted Pippen who is probably underrated because he played most of his career alongside Jordan; I picked him because of his Defense, versatility, IQ, and the ability to play 4 positions ... to me he was a more 'complete' small forward than Bird.


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## World B. Free (Mar 28, 2008)

LeBron. He is better then everyone on this list.


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## Jayps15 (Jul 21, 2007)

I'm going Pippen here, but I will say that if Lebron keeps up what he's doing and eventually gets some help to get him over the top in the playoffs he'll be at the top of this list sooner or later.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Right now it's Bird. In ten years it will be LeBron.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

mook said:


> Right now it's Bird. In ten years it will be LeBron.


how do you have a gif as your avatar?


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

I've had the avatar for several years, back when you could have them. Somehow I guess I've been grandfathered in.


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## World B. Free (Mar 28, 2008)

mook said:


> Right now it's Bird. In ten years it will be LeBron.


So would you rather have 24 year old Bird or 24 year old LeBron on your team?


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

It's Bird, and right now, it's not close.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

mook said:


> I've had the avatar for several years, back when you could have them. Somehow I guess I've been grandfathered in.


 bad news


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

it's Bird, but 'Nique was my fav


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## Stevenson (Aug 23, 2003)

]'m really surprised Dr. J has not received more votes. He was amazing!


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Stevenson said:


> ]'m really surprised Dr. J has not received more votes. He was amazing!


Not as amazing as Bird though


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

mook said:


> I've had the avatar for several years, back when you could have them. Somehow I guess I've been grandfathered in.


Animated gifs aren't allowed anymore?

Also, Elgin Baylor isn't getting the respect he deserves.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

World B. Free said:


> So would you rather have 24 year old Bird or 24 year old LeBron on your team?


I have to admit that I've seen far more LeBron games than Bird games. But look at the stats:
Bird at 24: 21 ppg, 5 assists, 48% shooting, 11 rebs.
LeBron at 23: 30 ppg, 7 assists, 48% shooting, 8 rebs. 

I'd guess the defense was a push. Bird was clearly the better rebounder at that age, but LeBron scored more points and had more assists. 

Yeah, I'd take the 24 year old LeBron without a doubt.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

mook said:


> Yeah, I'd take the 24 year old LeBron without a doubt.


Me too. So far, it's a bit of a blow out, especially when you look at their PER:

Bird, age 23: 20.5
Bird, age 24: 19.9

James, age 19: 18.3
James, age 20: 25.7
James, age 21: 28.1
James, age 22: 24.5
James, age 23: 29.1

Last season was James' age-23 season. But since his second year, James has been putting up top-tier superstar numbers. Last season and two seasons before that were historically good.

Bird's best season was 1987-88 (age 31) when he had a 27.8 PER.

In my opinion, LeBron James and Michael Jordan are the best two players of my lifetime (I was born in 1978). Jordan is the only perimeter player I'd choose ahead of James among all players in history.

Barring injury, James will surely top this list. In my opinion, his young prime is already the best of any small forward, but his career value isn't high enough yet.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

I went Pippen. He might well be the weakest scorer on the list, but the topper for me was that he could cover 1 through at least 4 defensively _and_ offensively. That was huge for teams to be able to slide him to PG, forcing teams to figure out some other way of attacking. With Bird, great as he was on offense, there wasn't a lot of defense. Pippen might be the best defender to ever play, regardless of era or position.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Me too. So far, it's a bit of a blow out, especially when you look at their PER:
> 
> Bird, age 23: 20.5
> Bird, age 24: 19.9
> ...


Wow, Pippen doesn't even get a _mention_ from you, Minstrel? :eek8:

Edit: I may have to rethink my vote. :sigh:


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

In the first place, Bird spent much of his career at PF. He only became a "SF" when the team could no longer justify keeping McHale as 6th man. On almost any other team, he would have been considered the PF. 

If you want a true SF, Dr J was the best. LeBron, Baylor, even Pippen could not have slowed him down. The only reason he isn't mentioned in the same breath as Jordan, was that he spent too much of his career on a smaller stage.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

PorterIn2004 said:


> Wow, Pippen doesn't even get a _mention_ from you, Minstrel? :eek8:


Well, I voted for Pippen (full disclosure). I guess, at gunpoint, I'd admit that Bird, James and Baylor produced more than Pippen. But Pippen's defense is the wildcard. It's impossible to quantify it's value...not only was he a great individual defender, he was such an active and great team defender that I think his impact on an overall team defense was comparable to that of a great defensive big man (as opposed to players like Jordan, Payton and Moncrief, who were great individual defenders but had much less effect on team defense than great big men...or Pippen). 

Can Pippen's defense overcome the higher production of those others? No comment. But I think he's brings a rarer (and highly valuable) skillset.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Oldmangrouch said:


> If you want a true SF, Dr J was the best. LeBron, Baylor, even Pippen could not have slowed him down. The only reason he isn't mentioned in the same breath as Jordan, was that he spent too much of his career on a smaller stage.


Erving wasn't nearly as good as Jordan, either, offensively or defensively. Erving was of similar quality to Drexler. Which is still damn good, but not nearly Michael Jordan.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

Stevenson said:


> ]'m really surprised Dr. J has not received more votes. He was amazing!



I am with you on that. If he would have had a better team a lot of those years he would compete better with Bird, but he didn't.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Erving wasn't nearly as good as Jordan, either, offensively or defensively. Erving was of similar quality to Drexler. Which is still damn good, but not nearly Michael Jordan.


I disagree. I think he was there offensivly, and to be frank, set the plate for Jordan to come along. He was the "Jordan" before Jordan. The difference being that MJ played defense better. But for at least 6 years there that I remember, the 76ers were in the mix each year when some really good teams were in the league, and the main reason, was Dr. J.


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## Stevenson (Aug 23, 2003)

The other thing Dr. J has going against him, actually this is true of all of the older players, is that *he didn't play at a time when every game was televised*. Word is his ABA days were beyond unbelievable, but few ever saw him play then, at his prime.


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## World B. Free (Mar 28, 2008)

Oldmangrouch said:


> In the first place, Bird spent much of his career at PF. He only became a "SF" when the team could no longer justify keeping McHale as 6th man. On almost any other team, he would have been considered the PF.
> 
> *If you want a true SF, Dr J was the best. LeBron, Baylor, even Pippen could not have slowed him down. The only reason he isn't mentioned in the same breath as Jordan, was that he spent too much of his career on a smaller stage.*


I don't think you can say that. How can you say that Pippen couldn't stop Dr. J ?? You don't know.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

hasoos said:


> I disagree. I think he was there offensivly, and to be frank, set the plate for Jordan to come along. He was the "Jordan" before Jordan.


In that he was a high-flier, yes. But then, Elgin Baylor had already been there, done that a decade before. And Baylor was significantly better. But Jordan was better than all of them. 

Jordan was an easy 30 PPG scorer (easy in that it was so routine for him that it was expected every game) and had great passing skills and was a very good rebounder for a wing. Erving was a mid-20s PPG scorer for whom a 30 point night would have been a good night, he wasn't nearly as good a passer as Jordan and was a similar rebounder. In addition, Jordan scored his points more efficiently (higher points per shot attempt).

Erving profiles most closely with Drexler. Drexler was also a high-flying player who scored in the mid-20s. He was probably a slightly lesser rebounder, but a superior passer. In terms of all-time rankings, I rank Drexler, Pippen and Erving all right next to one another, in the 15-20 range. Baylor I put in the 10-15 range, and Jordan I put in the 1-3 range.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Well, I voted for Pippen (full disclosure). I guess, at gunpoint, I'd admit that Bird, James and Baylor produced more than Pippen. But Pippen's defense is the wildcard. It's impossible to quantify it's value...not only was he a great individual defender, he was such an active and great team defender that I think his impact on an overall team defense was comparable to that of a great defensive big man (as opposed to players like Jordan, Payton and Moncrief, who were great individual defenders but had much less effect on team defense than great big men...or Pippen).
> 
> Can Pippen's defense overcome the higher production of those others? No comment. But I think he's brings a rarer (and highly valuable) skillset.


Excellent -- no need to see a moderator about changing my vote. 


I don't know about All-Time this, that, or the other, but if I'm picking own personal starting five, I'll take Pippen as my SF.


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

If you didn't vote for Bird, you don't know anything about NBA basketball. He was probably the greatest clutch shooter of all time, the greatest shooter of all time, an incredible passer, gave his all defensively...next to Jordan the most feared player in the entire league. It's really quite sad some of you don't realize how great he really was...


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

c_note said:


> *If you didn't vote for Bird, you don't know anything about NBA basketball.* He was probably the greatest clutch shooter of all time, the greatest shooter of all time, an incredible passer, gave his all defensively...next to Jordan the most feared player in the entire league. It's really quite sad some of you don't realize how great he really was...


Okay thanks -- I'll turn in my NBA fan license the very next chance I get.


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

OK, I can't believe Lebron has received so many votes. He hasn't done **** his entire career except fail...

Sure, I'll provide some info...try to argue against this...

Larry Bird

# 3x NBA Champion (1981, 1984, 1986)
# 3x NBA MVP (1984-1986)
# 12x All-Star (1980-1988, 1990-1992) (He played 13 seasons I believe, sat out '89 due to injury)
# 2x NBA Finals MVP (1984, 1986)
# 9x All-NBA First Team Selection (1980-1988)
# 1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1990)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1982-1984)

He possesses some of the most memorable and amazing plays in NBA history as well...

Oh, The Celtics pre-Bird.... 29-53 record.
Celtics record after Bird's rookie year... 61-21. Then they started winning championships...

IMO, greatest SF of all time is not even close. Take away the athleticism factor, and IMO Bird was the greatest basketball player ever, period. Just watch a couple youtube videos to get an idea...


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

c_note said:


> OK, I can't believe Lebron has received so many votes. He hasn't done **** his entire career except fail...
> 
> Sure, I'll provide some info...try to argue against this...
> 
> ...


I wasn't asking for evidence, nor did I hear anyone else asking. _Yes_, Bird is very, _very_ good. We know that. Myself, if I've got guys like Magic and Jordon on the squad, I'm personally more drawn toward defense than offense and, good as Bird was, you won't convince me he was a better or versatile defender than Pippen.

Think of it as a taste difference. I respect your opinion and happen to have a different one. If you can't bring yourself to respect differing opinions about stuff like this... well, good luck! eace:


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

c_note said:


> try to argue against this


Bird's production, on a seasonal basis, was worse, and he surely didn't make up any ground on defense.

That said, clearly Bird's career is better because it's much longer. James has been better the last few years and, barring injury, will quite easily eclipse Bird's career value.


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

PorterIn2004 said:


> I wasn't asking for evidence, nor did I hear anyone else asking. _Yes_, Bird is very, _very_ good. We know that. Myself, if I've got guys like Magic and Jordon on the squad, I'm personally more drawn toward defense than offense and, good as Bird was, you won't convince me he was a better or versatile defender than Pippen.
> 
> Think of it as a taste difference. I respect your opinion and happen to have a different one. If you can't bring yourself to respect differing opinions about stuff like this... well, good luck! eace:


Haha, you think I am mad because you don't agree? I really don't care what you think...

But, let me just get things straight here... YOU think Pippen was a better player than Larry Bird...
If you were building a team, you would pick Pippen before Bird. Ya, that's what I thought, lol.


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## Perfection (May 10, 2004)

i said lbj because I expect him to be the greatest. if he stopped playing today he wouldn't be though.


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

Lebron has to pretty much dominate the league for the next 10 years, multiple championships, MVPs, the best clutch player in the league....to be considered a better player than Bird was. It's definitely possible, but, I don't think it will happen.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

c_note said:


> OK, I can't believe Lebron has received so many votes. He hasn't done **** his entire career except fail...


How many NBA finals did Larry Bird play in by the age of 23? 

And is getting to the NBA finals and not winning considered a "fail"? Because by those standards Charles Barkley and Patrick Ewing were NBA failures.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

c_note said:


> Lebron has to pretty much dominate the league for the next 10 years, multiple championships, MVPs, the best clutch player in the league....to be considered a better player than Bird was. It's definitely possible, but, I don't think it will happen.


I can't think of a guy who is more likely to do all those things you listed. 

The homer in me hopes Oden might do it, but if I were forced to bet, I'd go with James.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

c_note said:


> Lebron has to pretty much dominate the league for the next 10 years, multiple championships, MVPs, the best clutch player in the league....to be considered a better player than Bird was. It's definitely possible, but, I don't think it will happen.


To be "considered" a better player, maybe. Not to actually be one. Championships aren't a measure of the player, but of teams. Just because fans like to confuse team success with the ability of the team's best player(s) doesn't make them actually directly related. Had Jordan played his entire career for the Kings, in the 1990s, and won no titles, he'd still be the same great player. He just would not have had the teammates to win titles.

Anyone who thinks that McHale, Parish, Johnson, Ainge, Wedman, Maxwell and Walton didn't have something to do with Bird winning so many games is a bit disconnected with reality. Who's Cleveland's second-best player been? Ricky Davis? The animated corpse of Zydrunas Ilgauskas? Anderson Varejao? All of these players have taken turns being the second-best player on Cleveland. It's no shock that James hasn't won championships. It's actually a huge shock that he's taken those Cleveland teams, desolate of talent beyond him, to an NBA Finals.


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

mook said:


> How many NBA finals did Larry Bird play in by the age of 23?
> 
> And is getting to the NBA finals and not winning considered a "fail"? Because by those standards Charles Barkley and Patrick Ewing were NBA failures.


Yes, they were failures. Tell me, by how many games did the Cavs improve by during Lebron's rookie year?

Bird was so slow, unathletic, couldn't jump, etc etc... Yet he virtually mastered almost every facet of the game, by his peers standards, by expert's standards... Lebron is much more explosive, but he has NOWHERE NEAR the skill that Bird had. Lebron relies on his athleticism...

He will have to develop his skill to the same level if he wants to be as good, which I don't see happening.

Lebron needs to win one championship BEFORE he's 25 (So next year he needs to win), 2 by the time he's 27, 3 by 29, if he wants to have a better track record than Bird. Do you honestly think that will happen?


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

Minstrel said:


> Anyone who thinks that McHale, Parish, Johnson, Ainge, Wedman, Maxwell and Walton didn't have something to do with Bird winning so many games is a bit disconnected with reality.


Maxwell was the only player from the group you listed that was on the team in '79 when Bird led the Celtics to 61-21. Try again.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

c_note said:


> Tell me, by how many games did the Cavs improve by during Lebron's rookie year?


18. An improvement of 105.9% from the 17 wins the year before. Which is just about the same as the Bird-led improvement of 110.3% from 29 to 61 wins.



> Lebron needs to win one championship BEFORE he's 25 (So next year he needs to win), 2 by the time he's 27, 3 by 29, if he wants to have a better track record than Bird. Do you honestly think that will happen?


You're setting up a ridiculous definition of "track record". Championships simply don't define the greatness of a player. It's a team sport, and while individuals can carry other players, the failure to get rings isn't a litmus test.

Of course, this is just one area where disagreement on standards is obvious with polls like this. Another one is what is meant by "great" in terms of peak or accomplishments over a career. Is LeBron better, now, than Bird ever was? Does he project to have a better career? Would you prefer Bird and a team of nobodies or LeBron and a team of nobodies? Would you prefer Bird with the current Blazers or LeBron? There are simply too many variables to get too granular in this kind of thing.

Ed O.


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## BLAZER PROPHET (Jan 3, 2003)

For those of you under the age of 50, Elgin Baylor was a player that was so unbelievably talented compared to those around him that it was unfair. Yet, he had to harness his skills as he played with many other talented players and played to win rather than accumulate stats. He's on my top 5 best players ever.


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## Napoleon7 (Oct 9, 2007)

Easily Larry Bird


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## OdenRoyLMA2 (May 23, 2008)

8 votes for LeBron? :eek8:

He's only in his 5th year. He could surpass Bird or the others listed in time, but he's not there yet.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

c_note said:


> Maxwell was the only player from the group you listed that was on the team in '79 when Bird led the Celtics to 61-21. Try again.


I was simply listing players that played a big part in their dynasty. The team Bird led in his rookie year had no superstars, but was extremely deep, quite similar to the 1999-2000 Blazers. They went 11 deep with good to useful players. Still a massive difference from the team James inherited, which had been torn down to nothing in order to tank for the #1 pick.


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## Short Bus Ryder (Jun 8, 2007)

I think that I want to vote Lebron, but its hard to vote for him in a best all-time category when he needs to do alot more in his career to get that vote. He's well on his way though.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Well, I voted for Pippen (full disclosure). I guess, at gunpoint, I'd admit that Bird, James and Baylor produced more than Pippen. But Pippen's defense is the wildcard. It's impossible to quantify it's value...not only was he a great individual defender, he was such an active and great team defender that I think his impact on an overall team defense was comparable to that of a great defensive big man (as opposed to players like Jordan, Payton and Moncrief, who were great individual defenders but had much less effect on team defense than great big men...or Pippen).
> 
> Can Pippen's defense overcome the higher production of those others? No comment. But I think he's brings a rarer (and highly valuable) skillset.


geez... not one mention of his ability at 6'7 to run a team? He was held together with pins and duct tape by the time he got to the Blazers, but that team was only dominant when he was on the floor running the show. Like when he was with the Bulls with Harper, his ability to run the point allowed Portland to play two off guards in the back court and punish teams physically.

I put him neck and neck with Bird, but I voted for James. Dude is off the charts. I only wish I could have seen Julius in his ABA days.

STOMP


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

STOMP said:


> geez... not one mention of his ability at 6'7 to run a team?


Well, I was only talking about defense. Most would give Bird the big edge on offense, and a lot of people claim Bird was also a point forward. I watched Bird play, but I was too young to really think about things like whether he was running the offense. So I skipped offense and talked about the area where Pippen had a huge advantage.


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

Ed O said:


> 18. An improvement of 105.9% from the 17 wins the year before. Which is just about the same as the Bird-led improvement of 110.3% from 29 to 61 wins.


Really? Percentages dont matter, it's all relative. The main thing here is, 32 >>>>>> 18.



Ed O said:


> You're setting up a ridiculous definition of "track record". Championships simply don't define the greatness of a player. It's a team sport, and while individuals can carry other players, the failure to get rings isn't a litmus test.
> 
> Of course, this is just one area where disagreement on standards is obvious with polls like this. Another one is what is meant by "great" in terms of peak or accomplishments over a career. Is LeBron better, now, than Bird ever was? Does he project to have a better career? Would you prefer Bird and a team of nobodies or LeBron and a team of nobodies? Would you prefer Bird with the current Blazers or LeBron? There are simply too many variables to get too granular in this kind of thing.
> 
> Ed O.


I agree here. However, if you ask ex-NBA greats, ask experts, all they cared about was winning championships, stats etc don't mean as much when comparing all-time greats. If a player was THAT good, he had the ability to will his team to victory via any means necessary, but the main one to look at is clutch shots and buzzer beaters. It makes that kind of player pretty much unstoppable. Jordan, Magic, Bird, end of story.


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## Perfection (May 10, 2004)

i'm only 23 so I wasn't really around for the time of Larry (aka never saw him play much).


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

These should give you an idea then...

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## HurraKane212 (Aug 2, 2007)

I voted for LeBron. 

Look, I'm a hardcore fan of the NBA, have been all my life, will be no matter what happens with Donaghy...
I've watched the old footage, I've seen the clutch moments and the plays. I still voted for LeBron. He has point guard skills in a power forward's body with amazing speed/agility/athleticism. I think that he is the Michael Jordan of the modern era. I really didn;t want to like him, in fact, I was a bit of a "hater." However, you watch this guy play and there is no denying that he is an all time great player.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

c_note said:


> if you ask ex-NBA greats, ask experts, all they cared about was winning championships, stats etc don't mean as much when comparing all-time greats. If a player was THAT good, he had the ability to will his team to victory via any means necessary, but the main one to look at is clutch shots and buzzer beaters. It makes that kind of player pretty much unstoppable. Jordan, Magic, Bird, end of story.


I completely disagree. Swap Hakeem for Jordan and who wins more championships? The Dream with Scottie and Horace... or Mike with Otis Thorp and Kenny Smith? 

There are many tremendous players who never won it all. Teammates matter a lot

STOMP


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

STOMP said:


> I completely disagree. Swap Hakeem for Jordan and who wins more championships? The Dream with Scottie and Horace... or Mike with Otis Thorp and Kenny Smith?
> 
> There are many tremendous players who never won it all. Teammates matter a lot
> 
> STOMP


...and Cassell and Drexler and Maxwell and Horry...

Jordan wins more with either team.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Larry Bird.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

c_note said:


> ...and Cassell and Drexler and Maxwell and Horry...
> 
> Jordan wins more with either team.


First of all Maxwell??? :callme: I hope you're kidding... dude proves my point.

Cassell, and Horry didn't become Rockets until the Hakeem was on the wrong side of 30... Sam was a rookie for the Rocket's 1st championship, Horry in his 2nd year. Of course Clyde was there on the tail end of his illustrious career and was clearly breaking down averaging just 61 games per year for the 3 years after the 95 championship before retiring. Sampson is the guy who could have made a difference, his knees were a tragedy.

Scottie was a top 50 player and is obviously in the mix of this Best SF ever argument. Horace was a multiple time All-Star. Geez imagine trying to score on that front line. Also Jordan's supporting cast of guards were at least on par with the likes of Vernon and Kenny. Deny the obvious if you want, but Jordan's teammates were far superior to HO's and last I checked hoops was a team game.

STOMP


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

Elgin Baylor. Look it up.


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

STOMP said:


> First of all Maxwell??? :callme: I hope you're kidding... dude proves my point.
> 
> Cassell, and Horry didn't become Rockets until the Hakeem was on the wrong side of 30... Sam was a rookie for the Rocket's 1st championship, Horry in his 2nd year. Of course Clyde was there on the tail end of his illustrious career and was clearly breaking down averaging just 61 games per year for the 3 years after the 95 championship before retiring. Sampson is the guy who could have made a difference, his knees were a tragedy.
> 
> ...



Tell me, who was 2nd, 3rd and 4th in scoring on the '94 champion Rockets? That's right, VERNON MAXWELL #2, then K Smith, then cassell, then Drexler. Just give it up, Scottie Pippen doesn't belong anywhere near a discussion for "Greatest Small Forward of All Time". Top 5 maybe...

The Bulls ALWAYS had a horrific bench as far as NBA championship teams went. Don't know what you're smoking.


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## HurraKane212 (Aug 2, 2007)

c_note said:


> Tell me, who was 2nd, 3rd and 4th in scoring on the '94 champion Rockets? That's right, VERNON MAXWELL #2, then K Smith, then cassell, then Drexler. Just give it up, Scottie Pippen doesn't belong anywhere near a discussion for "Greatest Small Forward of All Time". Top 5 maybe...
> 
> The Bulls ALWAYS had a horrific bench as far as NBA championship teams went. Don't know what you're smoking.


Do you understand that this is a poll asking for opinions and that "greatest" is a normative and very subjective term?

I might think that Mike Dunleavy Jr. is the greatest sf of all time based upon my interpretation of greatest. Hell, even the term "Small Forward" is up for debate. Magic guarded SF's but was a PG. LeBron handles the ball, but he is a Small Forward or "point forward." Is position determined by the role you play on offense? On Defense? What's on your trading card? 

So, you should accept that people have different opinions than you and realize that you cannot prove that your opinion is superior in a matter as subjective as what is "better."


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Bird. He was the ultimate package. I don't really consider Lebron a true SF, he does way more ball handling than any other SF. Pippen was good, but overshadowed by Jordan and probably would be among the tops if he had played with another team. I wasn't around to see Dr. J play and haven't watched enough highlights of him to say that he was the best, but he seems more of a product of his style rather than what how good he actually was as a player.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

c_note said:


> Tell me, who was 2nd, 3rd and 4th in scoring on the '94 champion Rockets? That's right, VERNON MAXWELL #2, then K Smith, then cassell, then Drexler. Just give it up, Scottie Pippen doesn't belong anywhere near a discussion for "Greatest Small Forward of All Time". Top 5 maybe...
> 
> The Bulls ALWAYS had a horrific bench as far as NBA championship teams went. Don't know what you're smoking.


so you're one of those posters who can't have a reasonable discussion without resorting to grade school insults. It all makes sense now.

STOMP


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

STOMP said:


> so you're one of those posters who can't have a reasonable discussion without resorting to grade school insults. It all makes sense now.
> 
> STOMP


Go ahead and check your previous post and tell me it doesn't qualify as the same type of "grade school insult". Here, I'll even copy/paste it.

First of all Maxwell??? I hope you're kidding... dude proves my point.



You reap what you sow...


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

You Blazers fans are a crazy bunch...

(I kid, I kid... :biggrin


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

To me, greatest is a combination of both peak performance (who I'd take at his best, against all other players at their best) and career achievement.

By this definition, I take Larry Bird. The guy led his team to as much success as any player short of Bill Russell and Michael Jordan ever has, and he was quite good for a relatively long period of time.

I expect LeBron James to be my choice by the same definition at the end of his career, but a lot can happen in the next 10 or 15 years, and at the moment I need to go with Bird.

Pippen was in the mix, too. His defensive flexibility and ability to handle the ball are both incredible. He was, though, for better or worse, the second-best player on his team for almost his entire career and while it might not be fair to him he never showed that he was the best player in the NBA the way Bird and even, IMO, LeBron have done.

Ed O.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

c_note said:


> Go ahead and check your previous post and tell me it doesn't qualify as the same type of "grade school insult". Here, I'll even copy/paste it.
> 
> First of all Maxwell??? I hope you're kidding... dude proves my point.
> 
> You reap what you sow...


how is pointing out that Maxwell was certifiably crazy personally insulting to you? Erratic behavior, technicals and arrests were a given. Remember when he went into the stands in Portland because he was hearing voices claiming some guy 30 rows back was taunting him saying things about his dead daughter? Perhaps you can recall his nickname? Here's a refresher...

Putting aside his mental instability issues, dude was a mediocre NBA starter at best. He could get hot with the wide open looks he'd have playing off Hakeem, but he was always undersized against the decent sized off guards of the day. That he is in the argument for most talented teammate of Hakeem during the prime of his career is my main point. I don't think Jordan would have come anywhere closer to a championship in his 20's then HO did with that dreck. Swap out MJ for HO, and who's their SF? Buck Johnson? Who's the 5? Jim Peterson?

STOMP


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

STOMP said:


> how is pointing out that Maxwell was certifiably crazy personally insulting to you? Erratic behavior, technicals and arrests were a given. Remember when he went into the stands in Portland because he was hearing voices claiming some guy 30 rows back was taunting him saying things about his dead daughter? Perhaps you can recall his nickname? Here's a refresher...
> 
> Putting aside his mental instability issues, dude was a mediocre NBA starter at best. He could get hot with the wide open looks he'd have playing off Hakeem, but he was always undersized against the decent sized off guards of the day. That he is in the argument for most talented teammate of Hakeem during the prime of his career is my main point. I don't think Jordan would have come anywhere closer to a championship in his 20's then HO did with that dreck. Swap out MJ for HO, and who's their SF? Buck Johnson? Who's the 5? Jim Peterson?
> 
> STOMP


I misconstrued what you were trying to say then...sorry.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

How would Detroit Era Grant ill factor in?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Schilly said:


> How would Detroit Era Grant ill factor in?


Had he played a full career, I'd rank him behind Bird, Baylor, Pippen and Erving. Ahead of Havlicek and Barry. So fifth all-time. But James will end up #1, barring injury, so that would push Hill down to sixth.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

The Hick from French Lick!

Larry Legend!

Nobody else is even close.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

I'd rank them roughly like this...

1) Bird
2) Baylor
3) Erving
4) Lebron
5) Barry
6) Havlicek
7) Pippen
8) Cunningham

After that it gets murky...King, Dantley, English, Pierce, etc.

I can't really see anyone other than Bird, Baylor or Erving in the top spot, although Lebron has an awfully good chance of getting there. I understand the love for Pippen's game, but I don't understand ranking him ahead of Barry and Havlicek.


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