# Marbury or Francis



## J19

well


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## Drewbs

Neither will either be the number one option on a championship caliber team, so neither.


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> well


lol emotional thread here. LMAO, both sux.


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## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>Drewbs</b>!
> Neither will either be the number one option on a championship caliber team, so neither.


I agree with that. I think they're both on the same level, but neither is the kind of guy you're going to win a championship with as your number one option. I think they're about equal scorers, Marbury's the better passer he doesn't turn the ball over as much, Francis is clearly the far superior rebounder, and neither are stellar defenders, but neither are liabilities defensively. I can't choose one, I think they're equal.


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## J19

Learn how to answer questions correctly, don't display the ADD problems you guys suffer from on threads, its a simple question Marbury or Francis, then you give an explanation, no one is really right I would like just to hear your guys opinion


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## Pan Mengtu

Marbury, hands down. The only thing Francis is better at is rebounding. Marbury is the best point guard in the league. You put shooters around him, and not dribblers, and you have yourself a very, very strong team.


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## J19

Marbury avg 9.3 assist as a NYK last year, basically Allen Houston helped him with that, when Houston gets back I expect a 3 guard line up because Tim Thomas is the worst basketball player in the NBA


Marbury gets no credit for his defense, and hes a better scorer and shooter in my opinion


Francis is superior on rebounding, better defender, I guess better dunker, but rebounding and dunking isnt the most important things when you're a PG


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## Drewbs

Marbury is at his best when he can have the ball in his hands, its the same with guys like Kobe or Tmac, but the difference is that they can single handedly dominate an offense at any given time and Marbury doesn't, and as a number 1 option, he will take his team no where. Its the same way with Francis, unless they can control the ball, they are don't bring much.


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## Amareca

Kobe and TMac haven't lead their teams anywhere as the #1 option either.

I don't see how they would be any different than Marbury in this regard. Marbury can dominate games like they can if he is on fire.


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## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> Kobe and TMac haven't lead their teams anywhere as the #1 option either.
> 
> I don't see how they would be any different than Marbury in this regard. Marbury can dominate games like they can if he is on fire.


The difference is that Marbury has played with Garnett, Amare and Marion at various points in his career. The best player T-Mac's played with up to this season(and you can't conclude anything from 11 games in this season so far) as the #1 option was Darrell Armstrong, Drew Gooden or Mike Miller. Compare that to Garnett or Marion, even at the stages in their respective careers they were at when they played with Stephon. Kobe's never even been the #1 option on a team until this season, so your point is pretty much moot concerning Kobe.


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## J19

if Marbury has never had the Shaq affect like Kobe has had


Marbury only spent 3 seasons with KG, he was a rookie his first year, come give me a f'n break you expect a championship so soon? 

In the 98 - 99 season Season Marbury only played 18 games, so techinally Marbury played 2 seasons with KG thats an Awful agruement right there



Marbury spent 3 seasons with the Suns in the a very tough western conference


Marion isn't Shaq or Tim Duncan get real


Marbury played with an awful nets team, when kidd came here Martin was healthy and played like an all star, Richardson reach a new level

Marbury really had KVH 

Marbury will probably finish off his career in NYK, Marbury can win a championship here if that dumbass Isiah Thomas dies or gets fired


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## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> if Marbury has never had the Shaq affect like Kobe has had
> 
> 
> Marbury only spent 3 seasons with KG, he was a rookie his first year, come give me a f'n break you expect a championship so soon?
> 
> In the 98 - 99 season Season Marbury only played 18 games, so techinally Marbury played 2 seasons with KG thats an Awful agruement right there
> 
> 
> 
> Marbury spent 3 seasons with the Suns in the a very tough western conference
> 
> 
> Marion isn't Shaq or Tim Duncan get real
> 
> 
> Marbury played with an awful nets team, when kidd came here Martin was healthy and played like an all star, Richardson reach a new level
> 
> Marbury really had KVH
> 
> Marbury will probably finish off his career in NYK, Marbury can win a championship here if that dumbass Isiah Thomas dies or gets fired


What are you doing? Why are you just running your mouth disputing things I didn't say and insulting me for things I didn't say. I was just responding to the post saying he's done just as much as Kobe or T-Mac as a number one option. Who said anything about a championship, Marion being as good as Duncan or Shaq or any of the other crap you were having a conniption about? I said he's played with Marion, Amare and Garnett. That's true. I even said the exact words, "even at the stages in their respective careers they were at when they played with Stephon" so once again you're disputing things I didn't say. Actually, you're arguing something that I specifically addressed because I knew someone like you would point out. I then said T-Mac hasn't played with anyone better than Mike Miller, Drew Gooden or Darrell Armstrong while being the #1 option, which is also true. Basically, your entire post makes no sense and shows that you didn't read my post or just can't comprehend what I wrote. Either way, please read more carefully, or bother to read at all before you respond with such nonsensical and irrelevant points next time.


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## The True Essence

marbury because im a knicks fan. 

j19...marbury on the nets was dismal cause van horn was also hurt, kittles too. jefferson and collins, two starters, never played with marbury. there was a point where marburys second option was johnny newman cause the rest of the squad was injured.

and when the suns had a bad record last year with steph, nobody mentions that Amare was out with injuries.

with garnett, marbury screwed up. his ego got him traded.

the thing about the francis argument is that rebounding isnt exactly the most important stat for a point guard. marburys passing is superior to francis, and passing is the most important stat for a guard. even if Jason kidd never rebounded the ball, he would still be known as the best guard in the league (not talking about this year, but just the past few)

as scorers, they are equals. francis shoots better from deep, and steph has a better mid range J.


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## Baron Davis

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> marbury because im a knicks fan.
> 
> j19...marbury on the nets was dismal cause van horn was also hurt, kittles too. jefferson and collins, two starters, never played with marbury. there was a point where marburys second option was johnny newman cause the rest of the squad was injured.
> 
> and when the suns had a bad record last year with steph, nobody mentions that Amare was out with injuries.
> 
> with garnett, marbury screwed up. his ego got him traded.
> 
> the thing about the francis argument is that rebounding isnt exactly the most important stat for a point guard. marburys passing is superior to francis, and passing is the most important stat for a guard. even if Jason kidd never rebounded the ball, he would still be known as the best guard in the league (not talking about this year, but just the past few)
> 
> as scorers, they are equals. francis shoots better from deep, and steph has a better mid range J.


I think you mean Marbury shoots better from deep, and Francis has a better mid range J.


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## JT3000

*Re: Re: Marbury or Francis*



> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> lol emotional thread here. LMAO, both sux.


Almost as much as Penny, right? F!



> What are you doing? Why are you just running your mouth disputing things I didn't say and insulting me for things I didn't say.


He's a troll. That's why.


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## LuckyAC

Well, I think Marbury is more of a proven loser, though obviously Francis is not exactly a winner so far. Marbury is more of a pure point and puts up gaudier numbers, but I think Francis could be a more useful player on a championship team.


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## Idunkonyou

Francis because he is the better player.


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## J19

Fracnis is a terrible PG, he never gets his teammates involved, the seriously has some awful shot selection, and the only thing you can say he has superior to Marbury is rebounding, Marbury the superior passer, he gets the Knicks invovled if you watched them< i doubt you small town guys do, Marbury can dominate a game with his consistant numbers 20 points per game over 8 assist on a AVERAGE game, Francis is becoming one of the most overrated teams in the NBA



Nelson
Tmac
Grant Hill
Dwight Howard
Battie 


Would be a playoff team


the Tmac Grant Hill combo, those guys will make each other better, and Dwight howard is already one of the best PG's in the league



Marbury is a loser? don't remember game 5 in Phoneix?


How is Francis the better player, his numbers aren't even close to Marbury, BTW


Name me a PG in the NBA who can AVG 20 points per game and 8 assist plays over 80 games and shots 43% not under 40%


my point is, Francis will never take his team to a championship his ego way worse than Marbury, he even cried when he was about to go to Vancover


With the collapse of the Pacers, Knicks are now the 3rd best team in the East


Francis because he's the better play, hahahaha what an weak *** agruement nice job:laugh:


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## Drewbs

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> 
> my point is, Francis will never take his team to a championship


And neither will Marbury, unless he has a guy like Garnett and is forced to play a more reserved role. The only players that Marbury will really "make better" are pure catch and shoot players on the perimeter, in a situation like that, he's a guy that has to have hte ball in his hands all the time. Hes a talented player, but the type of player he is, he needs to be a number one option to be really effective and any team where he is will not sniff a championship.


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## J19

> Originally posted by <b>Drewbs</b>!
> 
> 
> And neither will Marbury, unless he has a guy like Garnett and is forced to play a more reserved role. The only players that Marbury will really "make better" are pure catch and shoot players on the perimeter, in a situation like that, he's a guy that has to have hte ball in his hands all the time. Hes a talented player, but the type of player he is, he needs to be a number one option to be really effective and any team where he is will not sniff a championship.



If you watched the Knicks last night< marbury didnt even hold the ball for 60% of the time Crawford and Penny handle it alot


Marbury had 12 points and 10 assist He doesnt need to score for his team to win


Knicks won 98 - 88


BTW, Knicks don't have an option, its auto, who ever gets on fire we pass it ito, Kurt Thomas, Crawford, Marbury etc


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## Idunkonyou

The Knicks are the 3rd best team in the east, yet if the playoffs started tonight, they wouldn't be in them. :laugh:


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## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> Fracnis is a terrible PG, he never gets his teammates involved, the seriously has some awful shot selection, and the only thing you can say he has superior to Marbury is rebounding, Marbury the superior passer, he gets the Knicks invovled if you watched them< i doubt you small town guys do, Marbury can dominate a game with his consistant numbers 20 points per game over 8 assist on a AVERAGE game, Francis is becoming one of the most overrated teams in the NBA
> 
> 
> 
> Nelson
> Tmac
> Grant Hill
> Dwight Howard
> Battie
> 
> 
> Would be a playoff team
> 
> 
> the Tmac Grant Hill combo, those guys will make each other better, and Dwight howard is already one of the best PG's in the league
> 
> 
> 
> Marbury is a loser? don't remember game 5 in Phoneix?
> 
> 
> How is Francis the better player, his numbers aren't even close to Marbury, BTW
> 
> 
> Name me a PG in the NBA who can AVG 20 points per game and 8 assist plays over 80 games and shots 43% not under 40%
> 
> 
> my point is, Francis will never take his team to a championship his ego way worse than Marbury, he even cried when he was about to go to Vancover
> 
> 
> With the collapse of the Pacers, Knicks are now the 3rd best team in the East
> 
> 
> Francis because he's the better play, hahahaha what an weak *** agruement nice job:laugh:


This is the worst post I've ever read.


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## J19

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> This is the worst post I've ever read.



this is the weakest reply i ever read.


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## Captain Obvious

Okay you want a full response:



> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> Fracnis is a terrible PG, he never gets his teammates involved, the seriously has some awful shot selection, and the only thing you can say he has superior to Marbury is rebounding, Marbury the superior passer, he gets the Knicks invovled if you watched them< i doubt you small town guys do, Marbury can dominate a game with his consistant numbers 20 points per game over 8 assist on a AVERAGE game, Francis is becoming one of the most overrated teams in the NBA


I doubt you've watched Francis at ALL this season. His shot selection has been excellent, and he gets guys like Howard and Cato easy shots all the time. You talk about 20 and 8 like it's so great. I'll take the 21,8, and 6 that Francis is putting up on the SUPERIOR team. Also, I didn't know Francis was a team.



> Nelson
> Tmac
> Grant Hill
> Dwight Howard
> Battie
> 
> 
> Would be a playoff team
> 
> 
> the Tmac Grant Hill combo, those guys will make each other better, and Dwight howard is already one of the best PG's in the league


It's a decent team, but Nelson isn't a starter in the NBA and if you think so you haven't watched him this year. Our depth would have also been crappier. Howard is NOT one of the best PG's (or PF's) in the league.



> Marbury is a loser? don't remember game 5 in Phoneix?


Whoopity doo, that's one game. Marbury is perennial loser. Francis' teams have always been decent, and they were even close to .500 that year when they were 28-54 in games that Francis played.



> How is Francis the better player, his numbers aren't even close to Marbury, BTW
> 
> Name me a PG in the NBA who can AVG 20 points per game and 8 assist plays over 80 games and shots 43% not under 40%


His numbers are better. He never shoots below 40%, you just made that up. To answer that other question, Baron Davis put up 23 and 8 last year. How about Francis numbers? I can think of one PG in the entire HISTORY of the NBA whose put up 20, 6, and 6 consistently: Oscar Robertson.



> my point is, Francis will never take his team to a championship his ego way worse than Marbury, he even cried when he was about to go to Vancover


Francis probably won't lead a team to the championship, but Marbury sure as hell won't either.



> With the collapse of the Pacers, Knicks are now the 3rd best team in the East


:laugh:



> Francis because he's the better play, hahahaha what an weak *** agruement nice job:laugh:


That short statement was a better argument than the mess you posted.


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## Drewbs

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> If you watched the Knicks last night< marbury didnt even hold the ball for 60% of the time Crawford and Penny handle it alot
> 
> 
> Marbury had 12 points and 10 assist He doesnt need to score for his team to win
> 
> 
> Knicks won 98 - 88
> 
> 
> BTW, Knicks don't have an option, its auto, who ever gets on fire we pass it ito, Kurt Thomas, Crawford, Marbury etc


And if you watched Marbury in the past (rather than one game), you'd know that he is a score first PG that has to control the ball to be effective. 

Also, the Knicks not having an offensive option is nothing to brag about. That is usually why some teams are inconsistent, because players are not going to be on fire all the time.


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## Ps!ence_Fiction

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> How about Francis numbers? I can think of one PG in the entire HISTORY of the NBA whose put up 20, 6, and 6 consistently: Oscar Robertson.


ok if you kno that then u should also kno that Marbury is the only other player in NBA history to average 20/8 for his career beside Oscar Robertson


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## J19

if your PG is averaging 8 rebounds on your team, you know your team sucks


Baron david average 22 ppg and 7.5 assist, not 8 assist

He shot a terrible % 

therefor

Marbury > Baron Davis

Davis only played around 60 games, thats why I said find me a PG who does 20 8 43% FG that plays over 80 games


Marbury is consistant


Marbury isnt a score first PG, he does everythign, and if you watched the Knicsk he been getting everyone invovled, especially crawford whos been great,and is on a real time, finally




To say Francis is better than Marbury cause Francis averages 6 rebs is retarded, Rebounding isnt a PG stat sorry you have Centers and Poward Rebounds for a reason, to do the dirty work


Steve Francis will never averae 7 assist or more in career, Marbury thats a joke to Marbury, Marbury at average,averages 8 assist a game at AVERAGE, imagine Marbury on a great game usually 29 points 13 assist average game is 19 points 9 assist 

terrible game is probably 15 points 7 assist, haha funny cause thats probably a good game for Francis





lol Francis averages 5 turnovers per game and 6 assist, this guy gives up the ball too many teams to the other team, he's not a franchise PG, Marbury


in Francis's career in 39.6 minutes a game almost 40 mins he can only manage around 6 assist per game, so much for getting his team invovled with his "passing skills"


This guy is a turnover machine ball hog, you will never see this man in an Eastern Conference finals


Dwight Howard and Grant Hill are great players, they deserve a real PG, instead of well known career ball hog


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## Drewbs

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> if your PG is averaging 8 rebounds on your team, you know your team sucks


Just like Magic Johnson eh?


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## YoYoYoWasup

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> if your PG is averaging 8 rebounds on your team, you know your team sucks


That might be the dumbest logic I've ever heard. Magic Johnson got a lot of rebounds too, I guess his teams sucked


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## YoYoYoWasup

> Originally posted by <b>Drewbs</b>!
> 
> Just like Magic Johnson eh?


Great minds think alike.


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## Idunkonyou

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> if your PG is averaging 8 rebounds on your team, you know your team sucks


Francis has been a good rebounder his whole career. 

And I wouldn't call a 6-3 team a sucky team. I think they also lead the league in rebounds and blocked shots per game.


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## Drewbs

> Originally posted by <b>Ps!ence_Fiction</b>!
> 
> 
> ok if you kno that then u should also kno that Marbury is the only other player in NBA history to average 20/8 for his career beside Oscar Robertson


Doesn't Magic average something like 20/7/11 for his career?


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> if your PG is averaging 8 rebounds on your team, you know your team sucks


:laugh: 

Yeah, because it isn't like Orlando is leading the league in rebounding. 

Why ask this question just to so you can rebutt anyone who answers for Francis since you obviously want everyone to answer Marbury? And not only that, but continue to bring up terrible points for Marbury.

I think it is a close call. I don't like either so much but I have never liked Marbury. Just my personal opinion, for no particular reason, I would take Francis.


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## Idunkonyou

For his career, Magic averaged 19.5 points/11.2 assists/7.2 rebounds.


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## YoYoYoWasup

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> For his career, Magic averaged 19.5 points/11.2 assists/7.2 rebounds.


And all his teams sucked. It's not like he won any championships or anything


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## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> if your PG is averaging 8 rebounds on your team, you know your team sucks


Just when I thought your posts couldn't make any less sense, and couldn't be any more ridiculous, you say THAT. I suppose any team that has a _rookie_ averaging over 11 rebounds a game sucks too. Next time you post, could you at least try to make sense?


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## Pan Mengtu

Bringing up the fact that Francis, who's played with Yao Ming and Grant Hill, has played on better teams doesn't help your argument.

Evaluate each players ability, please. Do that, and you'll find that Marbury is far, far, far superior.


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## Idunkonyou

> Originally posted by <b>YoYoYoWasup</b>!
> 
> 
> And all his teams sucked. It's not like he won any championships or anything


:laugh:


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## Idunkonyou

Just for leaving KG, I'd say Marbury is one of the biggest losers in NBA history.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Bringing up the fact that Francis, who's played with Yao Ming and Grant Hill, has played on better teams doesn't help your argument.
> 
> Evaluate each players ability, please. Do that, and you'll find that Marbury is far, far, far superior.


Thats not what their career numbers say. Their career numbers say they are pretty much equal on the scoring end with Marbury being somewhat better passing the ball and Francis being somewhat better rebounding the ball.

I think far, far, far superior is somewhat of an exaggeration. And if Francis hadn't had the aberration of a season he did last year in Houston, his career numbers would probably say he is better.


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## YoYoYoWasup

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Bringing up the fact that Francis, who's played with Yao Ming and Grant Hill, has played on better teams doesn't help your argument.
> 
> Evaluate each players ability, please. Do that, and you'll find that Marbury is far, far, far superior.


Alright, no point in disputing it people. Pan Mengtu has spoken.


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## Drewbs

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Bringing up the fact that Francis, who's played with Yao Ming and Grant Hill, has played on better teams doesn't help your argument.
> 
> Evaluate each players ability, please. Do that, and you'll find that Marbury is far, far, far superior.


Perhaps. But first.

Francis played with Yao, but thats not an accurate showing of his skill. Francis like Marbury needs to control the ball to be effective, just because he played with Yao means nothing because he was often insubordinate to Van Gundy's give it to Yao offensive system. Also, Marbury played with Garnett, and he played with Amare and Marion. Putting guys like Garnett or Yao around Francis and Marbury isn't as effective as putting a great player around... say a Steve Nash. But for Marbury Don't say he didn't play with great players either. As for their abilities. They're both overrated, they might be talented and have great abilities, but they will never get anything done as a team's first option.


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## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats not what their career numbers say. Their career numbers say they are pretty much equal on the scoring end with Marbury being somewhat better passing the ball and Francis being somewhat better rebounding the ball.
> 
> I think far, far, far superior is somewhat of an exaggeration. And if Francis hadn't had the aberration of a season he did last year in Houston, his career numbers would probably say he is better.


_Somewhat_ better passer? _Somewhat_? He's the best playmaker in the game of basketball. Francis is one of the biggest dribbleaholics in the game. That's not somewhat better, that's night and day better. Francis is an undersized SG, and that's the truth.

Of course, statistics don't tell you that. But of course, for a PG, 20/8 is much better than 19/6/6 as well. Statistics also don't tell you how Francis is a bad defender who takes outrageous chances and winds up getting burned for it. Marbury is a solid defender. Plus, _he's the best playmaker in the game_. Sorry if I sound repetitive.


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## J19

Magic Johnson could play all 5 positions


Francis plays PG


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> _Somewhat_ better passer? _Somewhat_? He's the best playmaker in the game of basketball. Francis is one of the biggest dribbleaholics in the game. That's not somewhat better, that's night and day better. Francis is an undersized SG, and that's the truth.


Francis is one of the biggest dribbleaholics in the game? You do realize you're comparing him to Marbury right? Marbury controls the ball more than any player in the league, which is why its hard to value his 2 assists more per game.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> _Somewhat_ better passer? _Somewhat_? He's the best playmaker in the game of basketball. Francis is one of the biggest dribbleaholics in the game. That's not somewhat better, that's night and day better. Francis is an undersized SG, and that's the truth.
> 
> Of course, statistics don't tell you that. But of course, for a PG, 20/8 is much better than 19/6/6 as well. Statistics also don't tell you how Francis is a bad defender who takes outrageous chances and winds up getting burned for it. Marbury is a solid defender. Plus, _he's the best playmaker in the game_. Sorry if I sound repetitive.


Thats fine, but across their careers all Francis' dribble-holicism and Marbury's "best playmaking in the game," Marbury is only averaging 2 extra assists per game. I don't dispute Marbury is a better passer, but I disagree that Marbury is in any way better than Francis defensively.

Personally, I think it is a draw and my personal distate is much stronger for Marbury than Francis, so I would take Francis.


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## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> Francis is one of the biggest dribbleaholics in the game? You do realize you're comparing him to Marbury right? Marbury controls the ball more than any player in the league, which is why its hard to value his 2 assists more per game.


That's a myth. Damon Stoudamire is in his own galaxy dribbling, then Francis is right behind him.

The "Marbury dribbles too much" myth is old. He gives up the ball at the beginning of the possession 4 out of 5 times. When he does have the ball, there's not a second he's not trying to do something with it. He doesn't run around dribbling it not knowing what to do, like Francis. When the ball is in his hands, which isn't much more than the typical PG, he's either making a shot for his teammates or himself.


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> That's a myth. Damon Stoudamire is in his own galaxy dribbling, then Francis is right behind him.
> 
> The "Marbury dribbles too much" myth is old. He gives up the ball at the beginning of the possession 4 out of 5 times. When he does have the ball, there's not a second he's not trying to do something with it. He doesn't run around dribbling it not knowing what to do, like Francis. When the ball is in his hands, which isn't much more than the typical PG, he's either making a shot for his teammates or himself.


Its not a myth. Marbury dribbles more than any point guard I've ever seen.


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## J19

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> Just for leaving KG, I'd say Marbury is one of the biggest losers in NBA history.



Marbury has spent 2 years with KG, lol are you retarded man? he was a rookie and soph more


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## J19

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> Its not a myth. Marbury dribbles more than any point guard I've ever seen.



What are you typing, have you watch any Knicks game this season?


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## Idunkonyou

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Marbury has spent 2 years with KG, lol are you retarded man? he was a rookie and soph more


If he couldn't see that KG was going to be one of the greats, then he is the one that is retarded and a pathetic loser.


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## Gripni

Marbury is a better point guard. I'm not sure if Steve Francis is still waiting to finally get a chance to play SG because I think he is one of the better players in the NBA but would be much better if he got to play his true position, SG. I'm not saying he is bad the way he is, but he is really a scorer, and the point guard is supposed to be the one that makes other people score. Francis is really nothing special as far as setting up teammates, but he is one of the NBA's best as a scorer.

I don't see Marbury as a true point either, but he is definitely a point guard. I always compare the ppg and the apg*2, and a true point guard is the player whose career apg*2 is higher that his ppg. (I use the career stats because some players might have some seasons in which they are relied on more to score because their scorers are out, or something like that.) Very few players fall into that category. Marbury does dribble a little more than the average point does, but he has improved, and now his shot selection is very good.

Even though I am a fan of Steve Francis, I have to say he needs to improve his shot selection and court vision just a little for him to be better than Marbury. I still think both of them are 1st-tier point guards, though.


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## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Bringing up the fact that Francis, who's played with Yao Ming and Grant Hill, has played on better teams doesn't help your argument.
> 
> Evaluate each players ability, please. Do that, and you'll find that Marbury is far, far, far superior.


Grant Hill? That's like saying Dwyane Wade is a loser because he's played with Shaq and hasn't won a championship.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Gripni</b>!
> Marbury is a better point guard. I'm not sure if Steve Francis is still waiting to finally get a chance to play SG because I think he is one of the better players in the NBA but would be much better if he got to play his true position, SG. I'm not saying he is bad the way he is, but he is really a scorer, and the point guard is supposed to be the one that makes other people score. Francis is really nothing special as far as setting up teammates, but he is one of the NBA's best as a scorer.


True. But that being said, I think Francis fits perfectly into the style that Orlando is looking to play. Francis is not as good in halfcourt, but the staple of Orlando's offense is the fastbreak and Francis is great in the fastbreak. And his ability to grab defensive rebounds and take off down the court is very valuable to Orlando, as is his superior scoring ability. 

I think it is a close call, but I think Orlando is a better team with Francis than Marbury for how they are built and the players they have.


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## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Marbury has spent 2 years with KG, lol are you retarded man? he was a rookie and soph more


It's not a coincidence that after Marbury left Garnett really blossomed into a star. Garnett had his first 20-10 season when Marbury left, and did it playing less minutes per game than he had the previous year. A significant increase in points and rebounds despite playing less is not a coincidence, Marbury held back Garnett by dominating the ball so much.


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> It's not a coincidence that after Marbury left Garnett really blossomed into a star. Garnett had his first 20-10 season when Marbury left, and did it playing less minutes per game than he had the previous year. A significant increase in points and rebounds despite playing less is not a coincidence, Marbury held back Garnett by dominating the ball so much.


Marbury dominating the ball is a myth though.


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## J19

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> 
> It's not a coincidence that after Marbury left Garnett really blossomed into a star. Garnett had his first 20-10 season when Marbury left, and did it playing less minutes per game than he had the previous year. A significant increase in points and rebounds despite playing less is not a coincidence, Marbury held back Garnett by dominating the ball so much.



How can you tell, Marbury wasn't even at his prime yet, he was a sophmore

Marbury played 34 ins a game in his rookie year Garnett was an 17 and 8 player at this time


in the next year, KG played 82 games and went 18 ppg and 9 rebs pretty good numbers for a 3 year player

but heres the probably with the chemistry between Marbury and KG


Marbury only played 18 games that season he was one of the best PASSERS in the NBA at the time with averaging 9.3 assist per game 


Guys right now, Marbury and Garnett would be one of the sickest combos ever, and defeninately will make the NBA finals

Stop hating on Marbury, Francis is probably a top 5 - 7 PG and one of the most excitiign basketball players right now


but Marbury's passing ability is great along with his scoring shows he can do alot of things with the basketball You guys agruement is Marbury is a loser, Francis rebounds more, which is pretty pathetic ot back up


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> 
> but Marbury's passing ability is great along with his scoring shows he can do alot of things with the basketball You guys agruement is Marbury is a loser, Francis rebounds more, which is pretty pathetic ot back up


And your argument is that he has great passing ability and can score and do a lot of things with the basketball ... wow, that is convincing. 

Their scoring is pretty much the same and Francis' career numbers would be better if he hadn't had the poor season last year. Other than that, Marbury passes better and Francis rebounds better. Neither guy has won jack and neither guy has proven himself as a leader.

So do you vehemently defend anyone who comes out of NY?


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## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> 
> 
> Marbury only played 18 games that season he was one of the best PASSERS in the NBA at the time with averaging 9.3 assist per game


Stop right there. Since when do assists always indicate who's a better passer? I'm not saying Francis is a better passer than Marbury, I'm saying Stephon was not and still isn't one of the best passers in the league. There are plenty of guys who don't put up the assist numbers Marbury does that are better passers, but they don't dominate the ball like Stephon does.


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## Drewbs

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> 
> 
> Guys right now, Marbury and Garnett would be one of the sickest combos ever, and defeninately will make the NBA finals


No they wouldn't, and the reason is that the Timberwolve's offense is run through Garnett, if Marbury was on the Wolves and the offense was running through Garnett, Marbury's prodcution would not be close to the numbers he puts up now and woudln't play to his potential. Every team where Marbury puts up big numbers the offense is run through him. He dominates the ball and creates for himself and others. I'm not hating, thats just the way he plays and I stick by that he'll never win an NBA championship as the #1 option, and neither will Francis. He is one of the best players at his position but he'll never be THE man on a championship caliber team.


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## J19

Right Right, thats why when Marbury played for 2 different coaches and 2 different teams last year, im sure his numbers went down, OH WAIT he averaged over 9 assist with the "sad" New York Knicks  nice logic


Marbury has played for many different coaches and team, thats not a good excuse, try another

lol Steve Francis winning this poll is a complete joke and shows very little IQ


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## HeinzGuderian

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> lol Steve Francis winning this poll is a complete joke and shows very little IQ


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## J19

Why did i even make a poll in this section of the forum, these are the same guys who said Bibby is better than marbury :laugh:


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## Drewbs

I think Steve Francis is a better player than Stephon Marbury, I hate them both but Francis is a more complete player. Your question was who is better. Francis is really a combo guard while Marbury is an scoring point guard. Looking at it from the view of who is probably the better playmaker and distributor, probably Marbury, so he is realy the better PG, but in overall skills, I think Francis is better.


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## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> Right Right, thats why when Marbury played for 2 different coaches and 2 different teams last year, im sure his numbers went down, OH WAIT he averaged over 9 assist with the "sad" New York Knicks  nice logic
> 
> 
> Marbury has played for many different coaches and team, thats not a good excuse, try another
> 
> lol Steve Francis winning this poll is a complete joke and shows very little IQ


I think my IQ goes down a little every time I read a post of yours. If you know so much about basketball you know that high assist numbers don't make you a good playmaker/distributor. Look at a guy like Andre Miller, he was able to get 11 assists a game but now he's on a good team and that number is way down. Most people don't consider him to be a very good distributing point, just like most people don't think of Marbury as a creator and distributor.


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## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> I think my IQ goes down a little every time I read a post of yours. If you know so much about basketball you know that high assist numbers don't make you a good playmaker/distributor. Look at a guy like Andre Miller, he was able to get 11 assists a game but now he's on a good team and that number is way down. Most people don't consider him to be a very good distributing point, just like most people don't think of Marbury as a creator and distributor.


Are you out of mind? Who in the world doesn't think Marbury is a good distributor?


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## Gripni

Steve Francis is a great player, and so is Stephon Marbury. The difference between them is very slim. Marbury averages two more assists than Francis and no longer has a big problem with holding on to the ball too long, but that doesn't mean he is way better than Steve Francis. Francis is a better scorer, and a better rebounder. Marbury is a better ball distributer and a better defender. They are definitely comparable, and a strong case can be made for both players.


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## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> 
> Grant Hill? That's like saying Dwyane Wade is a loser because he's played with Shaq and hasn't won a championship.


I didn't say Francis is a loser. I'm saying don't use the fact that he's played on better teams than Marbury as an argument that he's better than Marbury. Judge them based on basketball talent.


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## J19

in my opinion Marbury is a better scorer



His career high in points in a game is 50 on the lakers


Funny Francis career high is 44 on the lakers


lol another stat, Allen Houston dropped 53 points on the Lakers(haha lakers suck)


anyway 20.4 ppg in 38.5 minutes per game career wise and 19.3 in 38.6 I think Marbury is better but barely if anything they're less on scoring


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## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> 
> It's not a coincidence that after Marbury left Garnett really blossomed into a star. Garnett had his first 20-10 season when Marbury left, and did it playing less minutes per game than he had the previous year. A significant increase in points and rebounds despite playing less is not a coincidence, Marbury held back Garnett by dominating the ball so much.


Ohh come the hell on. Garnett did not have a break out year the year after Marbury left. Actually, Garnett had 18/9 the year Marbury was only there 18 games. Then he had 20/10 the next year. Garnett improved proportionately every year. His jump after Marbury left was no different than the jumps while Marbury was there.


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## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you out of mind? Who in the world doesn't think Marbury is a good distributor?


Plenty of people. He dominates the ball and that is the biggest reason that he racks up so many assists.


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## J19

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> Plenty of people. He dominates the ball and that is the biggest reason that he racks up so many assists.



:no:


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> in my opinion Marbury is a better scorer
> 
> 
> 
> His career high in points in a game is 50 on the lakers
> 
> 
> Funny Francis career high is 44 on the lakers
> 
> 
> lol another stat, Allen Houston dropped 53 points on the Lakers(haha lakers suck)
> 
> 
> anyway 20.4 ppg in 38.5 minutes per game career wise and 19.3 in 38.6 I think Marbury is better but barely if anything they're less on scoring


Their high points in a single game means nothing.

If Francis hadn't had the year he had last year then his career scoring numbers would be higher.

Tony Delk scored 50 in a game once.


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## Drewbs

Tony Delk dropped 53 once.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Drewbs</b>!
> Tony Delk dropped 53 once.


:laugh: 

Great point!


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## Drewbs

I remember being excited about Delk being traded to Dallas bc he had scored 50. Well, that wore off real quick.


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## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> Plenty of people. He dominates the ball and that is the biggest reason that he racks up so many assists.


No, he doesn't. 

Francis and Stoudamire dominate the ball more, and don't rack up that many assists.

Assists isn't why he's a good distributor. He's a good distributor because of his ability to split the defenders and make the difficult passes through traffic to wide open men. He's the best at doing that in the NBA. You're just competely out of your mind and not worth talking to if you don't at least acknowledge that he's a good distributor.


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## The True Essence

but allan houston dropped over 50 twice in ONE season. lets check the record books on how many guys did that.

and i think j19 has taken homerism to a new level. im a knick fan, but i think its a tossup between steph and francis, but i would rather have marbury cause of his NY roots. and i know both probably wont lead anybody to a championship, but we can hope right? its not like the pistons had any stars.

and howard eisley dominated the ball with the knicks too, and i didnt see him averaging 9 dimes a game.


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## J19

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> No, he doesn't.
> 
> Francis and Stoudamire dominate the ball more, and don't rack up that many assists.
> 
> Assists isn't why he's a good distributor. He's a good distributor because of his ability to split the defenders and make the difficult passes through traffic to wide open men. He's the best at doing that in the NBA. You're just competely out of your mind and not worth talking to if you don't at least acknowledge that he's a good distributor.


:yes:


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## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Ohh come the hell on. Garnett did not have a break out year the year after Marbury left. Actually, Garnett had 18/9 the year Marbury was only there 18 games. Then he had 20/10 the next year. Garnett improved proportionately every year. His jump after Marbury left was no different than the jumps while Marbury was there.


Not proportionally if you look at minutes per game. Notice that he had the same jump in stats that he had the first couple seasons, only he played _less_ minutes and still increased his stats significantly.


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## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> No, he doesn't.
> 
> Francis and Stoudamire dominate the ball more, and don't rack up that many assists.
> 
> Assists isn't why he's a good distributor. He's a good distributor because of his ability to split the defenders and make the difficult passes through traffic to wide open men. He's the best at doing that in the NBA. You're just competely out of your mind and not worth talking to if you don't at least acknowledge that he's a good distributor.


No they don't. If you don't agree with me you're not worth talking to.

See I can do it too. Just because you say he's a good distributor doesn't make him one. I don't understand why you're bringing Stoudamire and Francis into this because I never said they're good distributors. Marbury is more of a point guard than them for sure, but his assists numbers are misleading as far as his distribution skills go.


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## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you out of mind? Who in the world doesn't think Marbury is a good distributor?


I don't. He's average for a point guard in terms of distributing. 



> No, he doesn't.
> 
> Francis and Stoudamire dominate the ball more, and don't rack up that many assists.


That's horse ****. I've watched every second of basketball Francis has played this season, and honestly he's dominated the ball far less that T-Mac did last year playing _shooting_ guard. Francis has yielded the ball to Hill and Nelson to handle plenty. Francis has done a fine job spreading the ball around.


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## Cometsbiggestfan

Steve Francis in every way possible


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## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> 
> Not proportionally if you look at minutes per game. Notice that he had the same jump in stats that he had the first couple seasons, only he played _less_ minutes and still increased his stats significantly.


Not the season Marbury played 18 games. That 18 games held Garnett back. Garnett's minutes dropped last season too, and his stats went up. It couldn't be because he became a better player, it must be some guy on his team who held him back. 

Instead of building arguments built on a big stretch premise, let's just acknowledge the obvious, he was an extremely young player in a completely unique position (pressure of first high schooler in a long time), who just got a lot better several years in a row.


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## Pan Mengtu

*I'm done with this topic*. We all obviously have no common ground since you're all unwilling to at minimum acknowledge that Marbury is a good distributor. I guess I'm just on an acid trip everytime I watch his amazing ability to split the defender and find the open man through traffic.

It obviously has nothing to do with the fact that you're all Magic fans who want to argue Marbury dominates the ball more than Damon Stoudamire. _Damon Stoudamire_.

Have fun in fantasy land with rainbow unicorns and dancing lollipops.


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## Captain Obvious

Let me just say that even though I'm arguing for Francis I don't think he's that much better than Marbury. For some teams Marbury might be a better fit but for other teams (like the Magic) I think Francis is a much better fit. With Hill shaking the rust off he's playing off the ball a bit and that should help his game blossom even more.


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## J19

:no: this is awful


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## BallBiologist

I learned about Francis before Marbury...therefore Francis>Marburry...


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## Drewbs

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> :no: this is awful


Because people aren't agreeing with you?


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## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> *I'm done with this topic*. We all obviously have no common ground since you're all unwilling to at minimum acknowledge that Marbury is a good distributor. I guess I'm just on an acid trip everytime I watch his amazing ability to split the defender and find the open man through traffic.
> 
> It obviously has nothing to do with the fact that you're all Magic fans who want to argue Marbury dominates the ball more than Damon Stoudamire. _Damon Stoudamire_.
> 
> Have fun in fantasy land with rainbow unicorns and dancing lollipops.


:boohoo: 

Unless the 3 Magic fans on this site have 9 screen names apiece there are obviously others out there that share our sentiments. It's pitiful that you'll drop a topic because you're so stubborn and stuck up that you won't budge and consider other views. I'm not just talking about this thread, I'm talking about your posts in general.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> :no: this is awful


Isn't it? 19 people voted for Marbury. Can you believe it?


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## Idunkonyou

JNice - your icon is very pretty. :yes:


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## J19

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Isn't it? 19 people voted for Marbury. Can you believe it?




Bibby won a poll against by a landslipe against Marbury shows the ignorance and bias of you guys. Bibby isn't even top 5 :laugh:


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> 
> Bibby won a poll against by a landslipe against Marbury shows the ignorance and bias of you guys. Bibby isn't even top 5 :laugh:


I could care less about some other poll. I wasn't involved. You should be one to speak on bias.


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## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> Instead of building arguments built on a big stretch premise, let's just acknowledge the obvious, he was an extremely young player in a completely unique position (pressure of first high schooler in a long time), who just got a lot better several years in a row.


That may be true, but that doesn't change my opinion that having a point guard who dominates the ball is detrimental to all of the other players on the team, especially a star like Garnett. He and Marbury would have *never* worked out. Cassell is a great point guard for Garnett, because even though he's a very good scorer, he doesn't dominate the ball and limit Garnett. That's why I think the best point guards in the league are guys who distribute the ball and are also capable scorers and shooters. Guy's like Cassell and Bibby are the ideal point guards for building championship caliber teams. I can't think of an instance in recent years where a team that won the championship was led by a point guard who was their leading scorer, or their #1 option on offense. Chauncey Billups is as close as I think it'll get, and again he's the exception to the rule. 

By dominating the ball and looking for his shot first, Marbury handicaps his teammates. Especially if you're a guy who can't catch and shoot, you would never want to be a teammate of Marbury. Pan, I thought you were one of the people who said there was way too much isolation in today's game? What does Marbury do on offense other than isolation plays, using his speed, quickness and ball-handling ability to penetrate into the lane and either shoot or dish it out to a teammate? The key to a successful offensive system is ball movement, quick rotation, crisp passes and good decision making. When was the last time you saw Stephon run a give and go for an easy deuce? How often does Stephon catch the ball and immediately pass it or rotate it around the key? A good majority of the time he'll put the ball on the floor and try to create something whether it's there or not. My point is that with a point guard like Stephon, you can't run a smooth offense. 

My feelings on score first point guards doesn't just apply to Marbury. It applies to Francis, Baron Davis and Gilbert Arenas. None of those guys will ever be the leading scorer on a championship team. Perhaps if any of them were lucky enough to team up with a Garnett, Duncan or Shaq they would be able to, but that would be only under the condition that they changed their style of play and they suddenly "got it", or had a coach help them "get it" like Chauncey Billups. Knowing those guys though, I sincerely doubt it would happen. I just don't see how an offense built around isolation from the point guard, and little to no ball movement can be part of a championship basketball team. It's hard enough to win a title with your #1 scoring option being a swingman, and that only happens when you have an amazing defense. Point guards need to be point guards, not leading scorers for their teams. Not guys who dominate the ball in the half court. Not guys who don't move the ball around.


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## Idunkonyou

Personally I don't consider Francis as a PG. I just consider him to be a great overall player. That is why his career stats are like 20/6/6/2.


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## Johnny Mac

Pan, I'd be done with this topic too if I were you, you're outnumbered and you've gotten under a few peoples skin with your "anyone with any basketball sense believes exactly what I believe" type posts, which has caused a lot of tension. I like your posts for the most part, even though I disagree with them at times, but I suggest you tone that talk down. It doesn't do anything but irritate people.


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## J19

just like Derek Fisher :laugh:


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## hobojoe

Pan, read my post and explain to me why you disagree. You wanted me to break it down in terms of his basketball abilities and his impact on the game, I did. Let me remind you, I don't think Francis is better. I said they're equal in my first post in this thread.


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## J19

Cassel has 0 assist and 4 turnovers :laugh:


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> Cassel has 0 assist and 4 turnovers :laugh:


That proves it. Francis is better.


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## Idunkonyou

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> Cassel has 0 assist and 4 turnovers :laugh:


 

You and your one game trips. 

If we are talking just PGs, Cassell > Francis and Marbury.


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## J19

Does this guy realize his opinions aren't worth my attention, welcome to the ignore list


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> Does this guy realize his opinions aren't worth my attention, welcome to the ignore list


So what is worth your attention? call you a jerk and say edit ?

Sorry, I just try to understand you more.


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## JT3000

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> Does this guy realize his opinions aren't worth my attention, welcome to the ignore list


I wouldn't be talking at all if I were you since 90% of the people who have read this topic, or any of your other lame troll posts that were made in a desperate plea for attention, more than likely now have YOU on their ignore lists. Make it 91%.

This guy is worse than grizzo and Pan (funny how one troll agrees with another?) combined. That's saying something.


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## J19

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what is worth your attention? call you a jerk and say F U?
> 
> Sorry, I just try to understand you more.


























:laugh:


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## J19

> Originally posted by <b>JT3000</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be talking at all if I were you since 90% of the people who have read this topic, or any of your other lame troll posts that were made in a desperate plea for attention, more than likely now have YOU on their ignore lists. Make it 91%.
> 
> This guy is worse than grizzo and Pan (funny how one troll agrees with another?) combined. That's saying something.



:laugh:


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh:


Edit


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## Greg Ostertag!

John, until you respond to my PM - edit !


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> John, until you respond to my PM - FU!


Oh edit man, I worte a thread in the forum about Luke and you never respond to it and some moderarating punk took the thread away.


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