# OT: "Darko" Nowitzki?



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> I love arguing hoops. That's just me. So when Detroit drafted Darko over Carmelo last June, I felt like a lawyer handed a case I couldn't lose. This was a slam dunk. Not only had the Pistons pulled a Bartman, it was potentially a once-in-a-generation blunder -- right up there with Portland taking Bowie over MJ, or Coppola casting his daughter in The Godfather: Part III.
> --
> Melo is averaging 24 since the break, and his impact on Denver's win total compares favorably with Larry Bird's on Boston's in 1980. And what about his age? At 19, Bird was driving a garbage truck, T-Mac was carrying Vince's water and even Kobe and KG were just getting their feet wet. But here's a baby-faced teen rejuvenating a scarred franchise in an impossibly tough conference.
> --
> ...


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/040407


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

Classic and I fully agree.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

I've said this all season. Bowie over Jordan part 2.

If Dumars can keep Sheed around, it will lessen the blow. Sheed/BigBen/Okur is a very good front line. But they missed on 'Melo big time.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

Joe Dumars on the signing of Darko Milicic:



> “I wanted to announce the signing of Darko Milicic today. It’s a very good day for us to get this young man locked up. It’s been quite a roller coaster to get to this day, but we feel that it is well worth it. We feel that Darko will have a <b>great future</b> here and we feel that he is very fortunate to be coming into this situation. We’re very happy to have him here. This kid is not really known around these parts as of yet. <b>I think as time goes on, we’re patient with him and we don’t throw him out there and expect the world right away, this kid is going to be just fine. We’re not going to put any undo pressure on Darko, other than to come in and work as hard as coach Brown wants him to work, do whatever needs to be done and we think it’s going to pay dividends down the road for us.</b>”


Joe Dumars on Draft Night:



> "Darko Milicic is not going to have to come here and be the savior. We going to push him to be the best that he can be. But he is not going to be judged on whether he carried us or not this year. We think that is an excellent situation for not only him, but for us as well"


For some reason nobody "gets it". It's not the Pistons fans. <b>Nobody</b>, from Pistons fans to the top of the organization expected Darko Milicic to come in and be a player right away. It was fully expected that he would ride the bench for the year. Look at our front court when we drafted Darko, it certainly wasn't a move for an immediate need. It was a move for the <b>future</b>. Carmelo's putting up gaudy statistics, but who here honestly thinks he'd be putting up those same gaudy statistics with the Pistons? He's in a position where he can get playing. Darko is not. It's really as simple as that. Everybody seems to forget that the Pistons already have a pretty solid small forward: Tayshaun Prince, who shoots 46% from the field and is an excellent man defender.

A better example of being patient: Jermaine O'Neal. That's what the organization wants Darko Milicic to be. Certainly not Dirk Nowitzki. If any of you even had the chance to watch the Pistons, I'm sure your opinions would be a little different. Just by watching some of the things that Darko does do as far as talent when he's on the court, you simply can not simply say he's a bust, already. Joe Dumars has said from <b>day one</b> that people would question this pick when they saw the numbers that LeBron and Melo would put up. and he told everyone to be patient. Now, everyone seems to forget that. 

Some of the stuff that Bill Simmons spews in this article is flat out ridiculous. I guess that can be expected with a Page2 column, they are suppose to create controversy. 



> C'mon, Detroit, who would you rather watch? Is this even worth discussing?


Who would we rather watch? We are enjoying the basketball team we have right now. On a collision path to the Eastern Conference Finals with the Pacers, and possibly more than that. With Carmelo Anthony I doubt the Pistons make the trade for Rasheed Wallace, and do you think that team would win the NBA Championship this year? If you do, think again.



> Have you seen our Pistons since the Rasheed trade? We're doing just fine without Carmelo, thanks. Yeah, but you're still not going to beat the Kings or the Lakers.


Yeah, we'll see about that one. Glad you've ruled out the Spurs in the Finals there Simmons. Or is that because the Pistons actually match up pretty well against the Spurs?

Come on guys, I'd expect alot of Pistons hate from many of you, but think critically. Two of the best posters on this site calling him a bust already, sheesh. :|


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

i'll call him a bust when he gets some minutes and dont produce to my expectations. DET is stacked with talented BIGS. with 10-15 MINS i think DARKO playing to his potential can get you 9-10 PTS to 4-6 RPG. :yes:


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Joe Dumars on the signing of Darko Milicic:
> 
> 
> ...


Great post.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Joe Dumars on the signing of Darko Milicic:
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent post. And the fact of the matter is that Darko is a center. Which means if he does develop that's probably going to make the pistons even stronger than if they had taken melo when they already had Prince. Could you have delt Prince for a talent roughly equivent to Darko? No probably not. It's a smart move for the future. Not now.

I'm trying to stay open minded about Darko.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> I love arguing hoops. That's just me. So when Detroit drafted Darko over Carmelo last June, I felt like a lawyer handed a case I couldn't lose. This was a slam dunk. Not only had the Pistons pulled a Bartman, it was potentially a once-in-a-generation blunder -- right up there with Portland taking Bowie over MJ, or Coppola casting his daughter in The Godfather: Part III.
> --
> Melo is averaging 24 since the break, and his impact on Denver's win total compares favorably with Larry Bird's on Boston's in 1980. And what about his age? At 19, Bird was driving a garbage truck, T-Mac was carrying Vince's water and even Kobe and KG were just getting their feet wet. But here's a baby-faced teen rejuvenating a scarred franchise in an impossibly tough conference.
> --
> ...


I like this guy. Not because of his stance on Darko, but because he debates like me. He reminds me of my self.


I have no stance on Darko because right now he seems horrible but who knows what the future holds and I'd still take him over Okur.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Joe Dumars on the signing of Darko Milicic:
> 
> 
> ...


For the record, I don't think Darko is a bust. I think he's extremely talented. But I have been disappointed with some of the defensive effort he has provided when Larry Brown puts him in during garbage time. Surely he is disappointed he's getting less playing time than I'm sure he expected/feels he deserves, but that's no excuse to use your only moments on the court as a place to sulk. He's got to be more active. And sometimes he's been great on D. But other times he's given Eddy Curry level effort, which we know first hand does not endear a player to a coach.

On the other hand, I hate Larry Brown for not giving a special talent like Darko more time on the court. Especially before Detroit picked up Wallace. What would have happened if the Pistons had not been able to swing the big deal and then either Ben Wallace or Okur had been injured late in the season? All of a sudden, a Darko with experience would have been needed, not the "I've only been allowed to play 32 second this season" version. Plus I just think a special talent like that needs some more floor time and can contribute. Look, the guy is already light years ahead of Ben Wallace as an offensive player. Despite his shortcomings and inexperience, Darko had a lot to offer the Pistons this year, IMO.

Also, doesn't the acquisition of Wallace worry you when it comes to Darko's future? If the Pistons resign Wallace, how will Darko get floor time? Some pf and some sf mixed in? Or would he best being traded, but his stock has clearly gone down since the beginning of the season. Hmm.........


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> Also, doesn't the acquisition of Wallace worry you when it comes to Darko's future? If the Pistons resign Wallace, how will Darko get floor time? Some pf and some sf mixed in? Or would he best being traded, but his stock has clearly gone down since the beginning of the season. Hmm.........


Personally, I'd start Ben and Sheed and Prince, and bring Darko in as the 6th man for Prince and have Sheed play a little SF. He likes to shoot 3s anyway and is proving that he can guard anyone, anywhere on the court right now. 

At least for a year or two, this might be a suitable arrangement. Long-term, you have to think Darko needs his chance to start and be a top option on offense. Perhaps BigBen will be the one who goes if Darko develops like they think he can? I don't know.


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: OT: "Darko" Nowitzki?*



> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> I like this guy. Not because of his stance on Darko, but because he debates like me. He reminds me of my self.
> ...


Acutally have you seen Darko's stats per 48 minutes? I don't see how these are horrible.

15 points 12 rebounds 2 steals 5 blocks


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> Classic and I fully agree.


Why? 

Don't you know anything about Larry Brown? He doesn't play rookies........NO MATTER WHAT!

Melo wouldn't be playing more than 5 minutes a game on this team.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> For some reason nobody "gets it". It's not the Pistons fans. <b>Nobody</b>, from Pistons fans to the top of the organization expected Darko Milicic to come in and be a player right away. It was fully expected that he would ride the bench for the year. Look at our front court when we drafted Darko, it certainly wasn't a move for an immediate need. It was a move for the <b>future</b>.


Be careful what you wish for Pistons fans. 'Move for the future' talk hasn't exactly panned out for some teams, mainly the Bulls. But you guys have the luxury of having a winning team already so kudos to you.



> Carmelo's putting up gaudy statistics, but who here honestly thinks he'd be putting up those same gaudy statistics with the Pistons? He's in a position where he can get playing. Darko is not. It's really as simple as that. Everybody seems to forget that the Pistons already have a pretty solid small forward: Tayshaun Prince, who shoots 46% from the field and is an excellent man defender.


The Blazers had the Glyde on board and passed on Michael. The Pistons have Tayshaun and passed on 'Melo? I'm confused. Don't they have Okur, Wallace, and Campbell already? And didn't they trade for Sheed? So either way you're drafting a player who sits and/or doesn't start right away. The argument doesn't hold water. In the NBA draft, you draft the best player, period. IMO that was 'Melo with the #2 pick.



> A better example of being patient: Jermaine O'Neal. That's what the organization wants Darko Milicic to be. Certainly not Dirk Nowitzki. If any of you even had the chance to watch the Pistons, I'm sure your opinions would be a little different. Just by watching some of the things that Darko does do as far as talent when he's on the court, you simply can not simply say he's a bust, already.


I am not calling him a bust altogether. Bowie had a nice NBA career before injuries took its toll. I just believe 'Melo will have the far superior NBA career. And the Jermaine O'Neal reference? Ugh. I've heard that 1000x on these boards for our HS kids. Not all HS kids pan out. Just because you're young and big does not a great career make.



> Joe Dumars has said from <b>day one</b> that people would question this pick when they saw the numbers that LeBron and Melo would put up. and he told everyone to be patient. Now, everyone seems to forget that.


If all is happy in Detroit, why is it that Darko has gone to Dumars asking about his playing time? I understand the company line from Dumars and Brown's hard line coaching but c'mon. If the kid could play now (and it seems he thinks he can) why isn't he playing?



> Who would we rather watch? We are enjoying the basketball team we have right now. On a collision path to the Eastern Conference Finals with the Pacers, and possibly more than that. With Carmelo Anthony I doubt the Pistons make the trade for Rasheed Wallace, and do you think that team would win the NBA Championship this year? If you do, think again.


I would rather watch Detroit with Carmelo  Darko is a shadow and the Pistons would still trade for Sheed even if Carmelo was on board. POR and later ATL was giving him away. 'Melo would contribute this season, the season after, and for a long NBA career... all while the pundits wait for young Darko to 'develop'.

jvan, I'm not hating on the Pistons. They are a top 6 or 7 NBA team and either they or the Pacers will be in the NBA finals. I'm just judging the #2 pick of Darko over 'Melo. IMO it wasn't the best choice for them all things considered. But again, you guys have an awesome team so you were the least in need of an immediate star talent like 'Melo. JMHO.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> Come on guys, I'd expect alot of Pistons hate from many of you, but think critically. Two of the best posters on this site calling him a bust already, sheesh. :|


Careful, 

No one is saying that Darko's a bust. But, Bulls fans know first hand what happens when your GM gets too smart for his own good. Joe D is holding his own -- The Rasheed trade was nothing short of masterful -- but you should temper you confidence in the Darko draft selection. The Pistons passed up a sure thing, for a pouting, soft, no rebounding, power foward. Potential is just that... potential, Darko's going to have be damn amazing for the selection to be worth the risk. Your gut instinct that Darko would actually be getting minutes by now if he were a top flight talent may be speaking truth. ...


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Also, doesn't the acquisition of Wallace worry you when it comes to Darko's future? If the Pistons resign Wallace, how will Darko get floor time? Some pf and some sf mixed in? Or would he best being traded, but his stock has clearly gone down since the beginning of the season. Hmm.........


Just to address this. I think the Bobcats will end up picking up Elden Campbell in the expansion draft. Therefore, in my opinion, Darko will end up getting Elden's minutes next year. It's a gradual process. I don't think anyone expected him to get big minutes right away, but now everybody is second guessing and calling him a bust. I would also have to say Darko is the power forward of the future. He will never be a small forward in this league. People, Darko is <b>not</b> Dirk Nowitzki. He will be a post player, he's being taught to be a post player. Larry Brown wants Bill Russell, not Dirk Nowitzki.

I'm not sure where you've seen poor effort out of Darko. I'm the first one to admit at the start of the season he was a very large step behind, but now he's looked really good in his garbage spot minutes. His defense his far ahead of his offense. The biggest thing I think Darko needs to work on right now, is not settling for the jumper. He needs to take the ball to the rim strong, which he hasn't been doing. On defense, in my opinion, he's looked real strong.

As for being traded: Not a chance.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

This is a valiant attempt, but I don't think it's going to carry the day 



> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> For some reason nobody "gets it". It's not the Pistons fans. <b>Nobody</b>, from Pistons fans to the top of the organization expected Darko Milicic to come in and be a player right away. It was fully expected that he would ride the bench for the year. Look at our front court when we drafted Darko, it certainly wasn't a move for an immediate need. It was a move for the <b>future</b>.


Well sure, but if you'd drafted Carmelo you'd have been making a move for both the present and the future.



> Carmelo's putting up gaudy statistics, but who here honestly thinks he'd be putting up those same gaudy statistics with the Pistons? He's in a position where he can get playing. Darko is not. It's really as simple as that. Everybody seems to forget that the Pistons already have a pretty solid small forward: Tayshaun Prince, who shoots 46% from the field and is an excellent man defender.


Probably Melo wouldn't be putting up as nice stats as he is for the Nuggets if he were playing for the Pistons, but Darko wouldn't be putting up gaudy stats, I think, if he were playing for Denver. The point isn't the quality of stats, its the quality of play. Melo is a difference-making player who's leading a team to unexpected heights. He might not be putting up the same numbers on the Pistons, but he'd still be a difference-making player. And that, my friend, is the entire point.

Heading into the playoffs this year, the Pistons have a nice roster with the Wallaces, Okur, Prince, Rip, Chauncey and a nice supporting cast. But let's not kidd ourselves... adding Melo to that roster makes them an order of magnitude better. They go from "nice team" to "possible favorite to win the title".

And you know what, that's important, because chances like the Pistons have this year are pretty fleeting. It's nice to say "we drafted for the future", but having adding a star calibre player to a playoff team in the present is a chance that doesn't come along every day.

And as I said before, it's not like Melo is going to start sucking in the future.



> A better example of being patient: Jermaine O'Neal. That's what the organization wants Darko Milicic to be. Certainly not Dirk Nowitzki. If any of you even had the chance to watch the Pistons, I'm sure your opinions would be a little different. Just by watching some of the things that Darko does do as far as talent when he's on the court, you simply can not simply say he's a bust, already. Joe Dumars has said from <b>day one</b> that people would question this pick when they saw the numbers that LeBron and Melo would put up. and he told everyone to be patient. Now, everyone seems to forget that.


It's not a matter of saying he's a bust, just that he wasn't the right guy to pick. Bust is, I guess, a relative term. He could turn out to be every bit as good as O'Neal. But if he does, then so what? 



> Who would we rather watch? We are enjoying the basketball team we have right now. On a collision path to the Eastern Conference Finals with the Pacers, and possibly more than that. With Carmelo Anthony I doubt the Pistons make the trade for Rasheed Wallace, and do you think that team would win the NBA Championship this year? If you do, think again.


I don't see any reason to think they wouldn't make the Wallace trade. I mean, presumably they made it because they wanted to maximize their chances of winning the title and also to clear cap room to sign Okur. Whether Carmelo was there or not, the Wallace trade would have made sense on both fronts.

I mean, maybe Dumars would have thought to himself, "OK, with Carmelo we're already good enough, we don't need to try and get better", but that logic always strikes me as EXTREMELY convoluted. In the NBA, you ALWAYS need to be trying to get better, and if you think you're "good enough" then you're not trying to win. I don't doubt that a lot of NBA teams think that way (unfortunately I think the bulls do), I just argue that it's a pretty foolish way to think. 

If I'm going to war, or to a competition, I don't want to ration my strength needlessly. If you're about to go fight 10 guys and you've got the choice whether you want to bring 10 guys with you or a hundred, you're a damn fool if you don't bring the 100. The point is, if you want to win, your best best is to be able to bring overwhelming force to bear. 

People like to try and make things sound difficult, but the basic ideas are still devilishly simple. The team that gets the most of the best quality players will typically go the furthest.

In that respect, I don't see how Darko could be good enough in the future to compensate for the opportunity cost of Carmelo. That means not just that "future Darko" has to be as good as "future Carmelo", he has to be so much better than "future Carmelo" that he makes up for how much better "Current Carmelo" is than "Current Darko". 

Think of it in terms of very simple numbers. Let's imagine something like a 1-10 scale in terms of player contribution. Right now, Melo is about a 7 and Darko is probably something like a 2. Let's imagine that Darko eventually becomes a 10, but only over a long period of time... say 5 years, and Melo tops out in two years as a 9.

Yr: Carmelo / Darko
1 : 7 / 2
2 : 8 / 4
3 : 9 / 6
4 : 9 / 8
5 : 9 / 10
6 : 9 / 10
7 : 9 / 10
8 : 9 / 10
9 : 9 / 10
10 : 9 / 10
-----------------------
Tot : 87 / 80

If something like that were the case... and lets face it, this is about a best case scenario for Darko to achieve... it would still take seven more years beyond their tenth year for Darko to match Carmelo's total production.

If, as you said above, what we're really after is the best overall quality of basketball to watch, it seems more likely that we'll get to watch more "good basketball" from Melo than we will from Darko.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I don't really get all the criticism of Detroit. They had a plan. You can agree or not, but there is a certain about of logic behind the plan. The general rule (or cliche) is that if there is a choice, you draft a big since (all together now) You Can't Teach Size.

Scouting reports from Europe positively drooled over Darko and Detroit had the rare luxury of being able to take a top three pick and draft for the future, rather than immediate need. Most holders of ottery picks do not have that luxury. Will 'Melo have the better overall career? Who knows. We don't know what young Darko is going to develop into. 

My question is this:

If the Pistons by chance were picking third last year instead of second and still ended up with Darko would there be so much barking about a contending team drafting a young center with plans to develop hom while sitting him for a year?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

And as to the MJ draft, don't forget that immediately after the draft, Rod Thorn was almost apologetic, saying more or less "What can you do? The best big men on the board were gone. Mike's a good player, but we wish he was 7 feet tall."

I'm sure you've all seen the quote. I had it in my sig line for ages. Nonetheless, I'll try to dig it up.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> I don't really get all the criticism of Detroit. They had a plan. You can agree or not, but there is a certain about of logic behind the plan. The general rule (or cliche) is that if there is a choice, you draft a big since (all together now) You Can't Teach Size.
> 
> Scouting reports from Europe positively drooled over Darko and Detroit had the rare luxury of being able to take a top three pick and draft for the future, rather than immediate need. Most holders of ottery picks do not have that luxury. Will 'Melo have the better overall career? Who knows. We don't know what young Darko is going to develop into.
> ...


Jerry Krause had a plan, too.

And as for your question, the answer is no IMO. Lebron and Carmello were 1a and 1b in essence and then there was the rest.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> I'm sure you've all seen the quote. I had it in my sig line for ages. Nonetheless, I'll try to dig it up.



*We wish Jordan were 7-feet, but he isn't. There just wasn't a center available. What can you do? Jordan isn't going to turn this franchise around. I wouldn't ask him to. He's a very good offensive player, but not an overpowering offensive player."*

_Rod Thorn, then Bulls general manager, after selecting Jordan as the #3 pick in the 1984 NBA Draft (Chicago Tribune, June 20, 1984) _


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> Melo wouldn't be playing more than 5 minutes a game on this team.


Sorry,

I don't buy that for a second. Melo would be the best scorer on the Pistons by all-star break. If Brown played Prince last season he would be starting Melo on day 1. And, we know alot about per-48-minute stats on this board. They're an easy way to convince yourself that your young tallent isn't as bad as it actually is.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> Jerry Krause had a plan, too.


True. And your favorite player was a big part of that plan. And three years later, "You Still Believe."

The Darko plan is one year old. And since the Pistons drafted him with the intention of sitting for the year, so far, the Darko plan is going according to plan.

since none of us has any idea what kind of player Darko is going to be, what is there to criticize? The Pistons didn't draft 'Melo and are none the worse for it. They are still poised to go deep in the playoffs. They got the guy they wanted and absent pure, completely baseless speculation, noone has any solid reason to disagree with that choice.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> Be careful what you wish for Pistons fans. 'Move for the future' talk hasn't exactly panned out for some teams, mainly the Bulls. But you guys have the luxury of having a winning team already so kudos to you.


I understand that, but the Pistons were in a position to make a move for the future. People also forget that the Pistons are still rebuilding, but unlike alot of teams the Pistons are winning while rebuilding. Players like Richard Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, and Mehmet Okur all play vital roles on the team, but yet are still coming into their own as NBA players. The luxury was there to take a guy that could be the next great center. When you look at the NBA as a whole you don't see many great pivot players, whereas perimeter players, those superstars are plentifull.



> The Blazers had the Glyde on board and passed on Michael. The Pistons have Tayshaun and passed on 'Melo? I'm confused. Don't they have Okur, Wallace, and Campbell already? And didn't they trade for Sheed? So either way you're drafting a player who sits and/or doesn't start right away. The argument doesn't hold water. In the NBA draft, you draft the best player, period. IMO that was 'Melo with the #2 pick.


Yes, the Pistons had Okur, Wallace, and Campbell on board. But Ben Wallace isn't going to last forever. There's going to come a day when his great athleticism isn't what it used to be. And Campbell isn't expected to be around long anyway. In fact, I would expect Campbell to be picked up by Charlotte. It's a good fit, plus it gives the Pistons the ability to sign both Memo and Rasheed Wallace in the offseason. I personally think Sheed could very well play the 3, and besides it's never bad to have loads of big guy talent on your team.




> I am not calling him a bust altogether. Bowie had a nice NBA career before injuries took its toll. I just believe 'Melo will have the far superior NBA career. And the Jermaine O'Neal reference? Ugh. I've heard that 1000x on these boards for our HS kids. Not all HS kids pan out. Just because you're young and big does not a great career make.


Why is it unfair to compare to Jermaine O'Neal, but okay to compare to Dirk Nowitzki? I'm simply telling you the Pistons want Jermaine O'Neal, not Dirk Nowitzki. Darko's style of play far more resembles Jermaine O'Neal than it does Dirk Nowitzki. 




> If all is happy in Detroit, why is it that Darko has gone to Dumars asking about his playing time? I understand the company line from Dumars and Brown's hard line coaching but c'mon. If the kid could play now (and it seems he thinks he can) why isn't he playing?


Of course that he's going to be disappointed about his playing time. In fact, that shows me more about his character. I'd be a touch disappointed if he wasn't upset about his lack of playing time. In fact, Darko later has stated that he understands what is going on. He also said that he's willing to be on the bench this year, but next year is a different story. He isn't playing now, simply because the Pistons have 5 post guys on the roster that are currently better than he is. That's not any knock on Darko, but right now he isn't better than Ben Wallace, Mehmet Okur, Rasheed Wallace, Elden Campbell, or Corliss Williamson.




> I would rather watch Detroit with Carmelo  Darko is a shadow and the Pistons would still trade for Sheed even if Carmelo was on board. POR and later ATL was giving him away. 'Melo would contribute this season, the season after, and for a long NBA career... all while the pundits wait for young Darko to 'develop'.


I'd rather watch the Pistons win. As far as Sheed being on the team if we had Melo, I highly doubt it. Look, I've never said that we'd be a worse team with Darko Milicic than Carmelo Anthony. In fact, truth be told, we'd be a far better team. Therefore, if we did have Carmelo Anthony, the Pistons would be a much better team, and the need to go out and get a Rasheed Wallace wouldn't be there. Added to that, there wouldn't be enough shots to go around, as I'm sure the front office would recognize. And with Carmelo Anthony, do you think teams would be as willing to just 'give us' Rasheed Wallace? I doubt it.



> jvan, I'm not hating on the Pistons. They are a top 6 or 7 NBA team and either they or the Pacers will be in the NBA finals. I'm just judging the #2 pick of Darko over 'Melo. IMO it wasn't the best choice for them all things considered. But again, you guys have an awesome team so you were the least in need of an immediate star talent like 'Melo. JMHO.


Fair enough. It's a legitimate argument, but I think you are wrong. Melo is not going to win a championship for us now, and he isn't going to win a championship for us in the future. That's my opinion. Darko Milicic, on the other hand, if he can develop into the player we all hope he can be, he's the type of guy that could lead us to a championship. I thought we were doing the East a favor, by not letting yet another possible dominant big go over to the Western Conference? It's no secret the reason that the West is so much better is directly rooted to the fact that they have all the great big bodies (outside Jermaine O'Neal).


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> My question is this:
> 
> If the Pistons by chance were picking third last year instead of second and still ended up with Darko would there be so much barking about a contending team drafting a young center with plans to develop hom while sitting him for a year?


I think the chances of the Pistons ending up with Darko had they had the 3rd overall pick are pretty slim. 

But it is a good point, that I don't know the answer too. But, I'm pretty sure there would be people pointing to guys like Chris Bosh in Toronto and saying, "look what you could have had". In fact, I've already seen that about Bosh.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> 
> 
> True. And your favorite player was a big part of that plan. And three years later, "You Still Believe."
> ...


And I still do. Unlike many, I understand the length of time it will take for a high school big man to develop. I watched it step-by-step with the Pacers and am willing to let it happen.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> This is a valiant attempt, but I don't think it's going to carry the day
> 
> 
> ...


All things considered, the Pistons wanted the better player in the <b>future</b>, and they felt that was Darko. 





> Probably Melo wouldn't be putting up as nice stats as he is for the Nuggets if he were playing for the Pistons, but Darko wouldn't be putting up gaudy stats, I think, if he were playing for Denver. The point isn't the quality of stats, its the quality of play. Melo is a difference-making player who's leading a team to unexpected heights. He might not be putting up the same numbers on the Pistons, but he'd still be a difference-making player. And that, my friend, is the entire point.


If the point was "quality of play" and not "quality of stats", we wouldn't be having this conversation, I do not believe. Anybody that has watched the Pistons has seen that the play of Darko doesn't match up with his stats. He's made some great plays, plays that show you the type of potential that he has in this league. Those don't show up in the boxscore, and they don't show up in his season statistics. I've given Melo a ton of credit, but this Denver team is a vastly improved to the team last year that started Junior Harrington and Ryan Bowen at times. There rise hasn't been all his doing. Andre Miller was a huge signing for Denver. But all that said, I think this argument still comes back to who the Pistons thought would be the better player in the future. And they thought and still think that player will be Darko.

Let's not forget that it hasn't been a smooth ride this whole year for Carmelo either. His defense has sometimes been labeled shaky, and of course he did have that infamous incident in Detroit. 



> Heading into the playoffs this year, the Pistons have a nice roster with the Wallaces, Okur, Prince, Rip, Chauncey and a nice supporting cast. But let's not kidd ourselves... adding Melo to that roster makes them an order of magnitude better. They go from "nice team" to "possible favorite to win the title".


If they had that roster, I agree. But I still doubt that they'd have Rasheed Wallace on the team. The sense of urgency to make that trade would not have been there.



> And you know what, that's important, because chances like the Pistons have this year are pretty fleeting. It's nice to say "we drafted for the future", but having adding a star calibre player to a playoff team in the present is a chance that doesn't come along every day.


I agree. But, I don't think Carmelo anything would win the title for the Pistons. Another thing to consider, when the Pistons drafted Darko, they knew that they were drafting for a few years down the line. The NBA has Shaq (some would make a case for Yao) and everybody else at the center position. The Pistons are hoping that when Darko's coming into his own, Shaq's career is winding down.



> And as I said before, it's not like Melo is going to start sucking in the future.


Well, I don't really know where to go with that. I doubt McGrady, Iverson, LeBron, Pierce, Carter, Redd, B. Davis, and Marbury are going to 'start sucking' in the future either.





> It's not a matter of saying he's a bust, just that he wasn't the right guy to pick. Bust is, I guess, a relative term. He could turn out to be every bit as good as O'Neal. But if he does, then so what?


If he turns out to be as good as Jermaine O'Neal, I'll be happy. I'd much rather have Jermaine O'Neal than Paul Pierce or Tracy McGrady. 





> I don't see any reason to think they wouldn't make the Wallace trade. I mean, presumably they made it because they wanted to maximize their chances of winning the title and also to clear cap room to sign Okur. Whether Carmelo was there or not, the Wallace trade would have made sense on both fronts.
> 
> I mean, maybe Dumars would have thought to himself, "OK, with Carmelo we're already good enough, we don't need to try and get better", but that logic always strikes me as EXTREMELY convoluted. In the NBA, you ALWAYS need to be trying to get better, and if you think you're "good enough" then you're not trying to win. I don't doubt that a lot of NBA teams think that way (unfortunately I think the bulls do), I just argue that it's a pretty foolish way to think.
> 
> If I'm going to war, or to a competition, I don't want to ration my strength needlessly. If you're about to go fight 10 guys and you've got the choice whether you want to bring 10 guys with you or a hundred, you're a damn fool if you don't bring the 100. The point is, if you want to win, your best best is to be able to bring overwhelming force to bear.


I disagree. If the Pistons had Carmelo, I doubt they go through a stretch where they played as poorly as they did this year at one point. Therefore the sense of urgency to make that deal wouldn't be there. You don't fix what's not broken either. If the Pistons were as good as everyone said they'd be, then bringing in Rasheed Wallace might actually do more harm than good in terms of chemistry. But, hey I know Chicago knows all well what chemistry is all about. 



> People like to try and make things sound difficult, but the basic ideas are still devilishly simple. The team that gets the most of the best quality players will typically go the furthest.


I agree, but you have to have a healthy balance. While it would be nice to have a bunch of all-stars together on the same team, how would they work together? I'm a firm believer that you need guys on a championship team that are willing to accept their role. Case in point, last year's Spurs.



> In that respect, I don't see how Darko could be good enough in the future to compensate for the opportunity cost of Carmelo. That means not just that "future Darko" has to be as good as "future Carmelo", he has to be so much better than "future Carmelo" that he makes up for how much better "Current Carmelo" is than "Current Darko".
> 
> Think of it in terms of very simple numbers. Let's imagine something like a 1-10 scale in terms of player contribution. Right now, Melo is about a 7 and Darko is probably something like a 2. Let's imagine that Darko eventually becomes a 10, but only over a long period of time... say 5 years, and Melo tops out in two years as a 9.
> 
> ...


I think those numbers are quite arbitrary. But, if you want to use them: A ten at center in this day and age versus a nine on the wing? There's a great discrepency there if you think about the talent of the NBA.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: OT: "Darko" Nowitzki?*



> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> 
> Acutally have you seen Darko's stats per 48 minutes? I don't see how these are horrible.
> ...


Stats per 48 minutes are *very* deceiving. Very. However, I am not considering Darko to be a bust at all. He does need more experience and PT to prove his worth and I feel he will get that next season.


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## JustinSane (May 26, 2003)

A few of points:

1. At the time of the draft, Dumars had no way of knowing he could get Sheed for next to nothing down the road. He had Okur, Robinson and Wallace for the frontcourt, and that pretty clearly was not enough to win a championship. Darko had (and has) the potential to be a dominant center, which, when added to the rest of the team, gives very good chances at a championship.

2. Melo is not good defensively. He's a tremendous scorer and he's got a star's mentality, but I don't think he would have fit in on a blue collar team that prides it self first and foremost on defense. They would have had little use for a 19 year old ball hog who gets burned on defense and thinks he's the second coming of Jordan and should be the unquestioned star of the team.

3. The Nuggets have added far more than Melo this offseason. A healthy Camby, a true point guard in Miller, a sparkplug in Boykins, and a sharp shooter in Voshon Leonard. Melo didn't exactly lift this team on his shoulders and carry it to the playoffs (if they even end up beating our the Jazz). He has been just a piece of the puzzle.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Darko Milicic, on the other hand, if he can develop into the player we all hope he can be, he's the type of guy that could lead us to a championship.


Sounds like Pervis Ellison, Derrick Coleman, Stacey King, Kwame Brown, and Eddie Curry.

Hope you guys are right. Darko has a loooooooooooong way to go to catch up with Melo.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> If they had that roster, I agree. But I still doubt that they'd have Rasheed Wallace on the team.


This is a world class, Sosa swing from the ankles, but I think if you had gotten Carmelo and found that he didn't fit in with what you had...you could have traded him and gotten an even better player than Sheed.

The chance to win rings doesn't come around often.

The old Bulls, or the current Bulls are the team that should take a chance on a Darko. An ascending team like the Pistons should take in as many guns as they can right away and worry about the future later.


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry,
> ...


Brown wasn't the coach last year and even Carlisle didn't play Prince last year until the playoffs really. 

MELO WOULD NOT BE PLAYING ON THIS TEAM! Beeeeleed dat!


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> The old Bulls, or the current Bulls are the team that should take a chance on a Darko. An ascending team like the Pistons should take in as many guns as they can right away and worry about the future later.


but no one thought the Pistons were legit contenders THIS YEAR until they got Wallace. Their defense, good as it already was, is absolutely demoralizing now. Would Carmelo have provided that? Not on your life. And Rasheed is nearly the offensive force that Carmelo is, too, when he actually goes into the post. the Pistons are absolutely loaded in the front court now and probably in the future. As good as Carmelo is, star-caliber SG/SF scorers are easier to find than special big men. And Prince might fit into their defensive system better than Carmelo, but that's just idle speculation on my part. 

I'm on the "give Darko 1-2 years" wagon personally.

hypothetically, if the Pistons had drafted Carmelo and still been able to swing the trade for Wallace, THAT would be the ideal situation for them. But I think they're sitting pretty as is.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Yr: Carmelo / Darko
> 1 : 7 / 2
> 2 : 8 / 4
> ...


I'd argue that it is better to have 6 years as a top-flight player than those numerous years as a just-below top-flight player. Those figures above tell me that the Pistons have inherited a player that will keep them as a prime championship contender for the better part of a decade, whereas Denver have a player who by your reasoning will never be as good as KG. We've seen how Garnett has done in the Western playoffs thus far.

Bottom line, you always make the power play for the championship. Darko will be playing 15mpg next season and beginning his ascent to greatness. The difference with Detroit's case and Chicago's is the Pistons don't need to rely on him straight away, he'll be plugged in whenever he's ready. Imagine if you guys could've taken Curry and Chandler and sent them to college for a year - fundamentally what the Pistons have done.

In many ways this team reminds me of the Blazers in the late 90s - except they get to keep Jermaine O'Neal.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

A couple things everyone has to understand:

Bill Simmons is a HUGE Boston homer. He absolutely despises everything about the Pistons organization and has never allowed one good word about them to come out of his mouth. It is only natural that he is going to write an article like this. He is a comedy writer, not an actual basketball reporter.

Second:

Lebron and Carmelo were NOT 1a and 1b. To say that is complete revisionist history. Darko was to the number 2 pick as Lebron was to the number 1. I'm not sure there is a GM in the league who would have passed on Darko after the workouts he put on in Detroit. Even Denver was dissapointed initially. They were so unimpressed with Carmelo this summer they brought in Chris Bosh to work out and there stories that they were looking to trade down. 

Third:

If Detroit has Carmelo there is no way in hell Danny Ainge, or any GM for that matter, would have helped Detroit get Rasheed Wallace. Remember, they couldn't do it on their own, they had to find that third team. If Detroit had Carmelo, there would be no Sheed.

I am perfectly happy with the team Detroit has now. Carmelo is simply an atrocious defender, which is what Detroit prides itself on. Sheed brings far more to the team than Melo would have.

I think we all realize that right now Carmelo Anthony is a significantly better player than Darko, just like in 1995 Glenn Robinson was a significantly better player than Rasheed Wallace, who, like Darko, was a year younger. In fact Rasheed's numbers have never approached what Big Dog did in his rookie year, but who is the better basketball player?

How about the 1996 draft? 19 year old Antoine Walker was a significantly better player than 18 year old Jermaine O'Neal. Would anybody take Walker over O'Neal today?

Glenn Robinson and Antoine Walker. A couple oversized small forwards with a love for shooting 20+ footers who couldn't defend Fort Knox from an Eskimo uprising. Remind you of anyone we know?

To compare this to Bowie-Jordan implies that Carmelo is the next Michael Jordan. Seriously guys, a lot of big small forwards have come in their rookie year at a young age and put up big numbers, only never to improve. And Carmelo is already showing signs of being a prima dona. 

Like Detroit, I'll pass.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

,,


> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/040407


here's some of the problems i have with this article, mr simmons mentions the names larry bird, mj, t-mac, kobe and dirk to name a few in his article. i hate to break it to this guy but melo isnt in the same league with any of those guys and he isnt in the same stratosphere with the first two i mentioned. the pistons arent stupid, if they thought melo was that much better of a prospect than darko they would have taken him. everyone knew that darko wasnt ready to play, he had to get special dispensation from the pope( david stern) to even get into the draft because he was so young. nothings changed with him, part of the problem for darko has been larry brown's reluctance to play him and if he had gone to orlando or atlanta he would be getting more minutes and that would obviously translate to bigger numbers. as long as the age limit for the draft is at 18 we are going to have kids coming into the league that arent ready, it'll happen again this year with several highschoolers and some more young foreigners coming aboard. to say any of these guys are busts after one year is not only flawed logic its not very bright.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

basic ethno-centric garbage on this thread. Darko is soft, some would say? Same people who probably think black guys are raw and white players are unathletic. Its BS. Darko has a mean streak, and will show it when he is given a chance. I saw the guy play 4 times last year. And he is as rough and tumble as they come. Ask Unbellievable, who happens to live in Greece and saw him play plenty. Lets call him soft! Its about as uneducated an opinion as I have heard in awhile. Obviously, whoever thinks this has no knowledge of Millicic whatsoever. Darko is on a team with a coach who hates rookies, they dont need him to play, and they are going to sit him down. They will bring him along the right way. And by this time next year, I bet most of us will be acknowledging that Darko, not Curry, is the best young center in the east.


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## thrillhouse (Apr 18, 2003)

a lot of people like jvan, tomb and others are making really good points.
this team was not expected to be in contention for a title this year, we were looking more at like 2006


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> basic ethno-centric garbage on this thread. Darko is soft, some would say? Same people who probably think black guys are raw and white players are unathletic.


Where did that come from?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Here the quote GB, from the initial post. 

. You need to be patient; just look at Dirk Nowitzki. Excellent point. Now, I'll let you in on a little secret ... like just about every other European, Dirk is soft. Hasn't gotten better in three years. Can't rebound when it matters. Still settles for his jumper instead of drawing contact. Couldn't guard Paul Mokeski ... now. I love watching the guy, but if he's your "best-case scenario" for passing up a future 10-time All-Star, you need to go back to
the situation room.

This is generalizing at its best. Not a shot at you, but whoever you quoted was so far off


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Here the quote GB, from the initial post.
> 
> . You need to be patient; just look at Dirk Nowitzki. Excellent point. Now, I'll let you in on a little secret ... like just about every other European, Dirk is soft. Hasn't gotten better in three years. Can't rebound when it matters. Still settles for his jumper instead of drawing contact. Couldn't guard Paul Mokeski ... now. I love watching the guy, but if he's your "best-case scenario" for passing up a future 10-time All-Star, you need to go back to
> ...



besides is there anyone foolish enough to say dirk isnt one of the 10 best players in the world.


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## Odomiles (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> A couple things everyone has to understand:
> 
> Bill Simmons is a HUGE Boston homer. He absolutely despises everything about the Pistons organization and has never allowed one good word about them to come out of his mouth. It is only natural that he is going to write an article like this. He is a comedy writer, not an actual basketball reporter.
> ...


Great post. I rated you a 5 for that.

The Glenn Robinson comparison is so accurate it's almost scary. They put up very similar numbers and possess the same attitude on the court. Not to mention the fact that their games are very similar.

Here's a comparison of their rookie seasons:

Glenn Robinson: 21.9 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 2.5 APG, 1.44 SPG, 0.28 BPG, .451 FG %, .321 3PFG%
Carmelo Anthony: 20.9 PPG, 6.0 RPG, 2.8 APG, 1.18 SPG, 0.52 BPG, .426 FG%, .327 3PFG%

We won't know for a long time, but I can see Carmelo's career playing out much like Glenn Robinson's has.

And can we just lay off Darko for now? I'm tired of reading countless posts about him being a "bust". Do you guys really think you know more about basketball talent than NBA scouts? I'm sure you all read the stories about how some GM's would have taken Darko over LeBron, if it wouldn't have been considered PR suicide. If that's true, then clearly they see something in him. By judging him so harshly based on the few minutes he plays here and there, you're just making yourselves look ignorant. Do you really want to be one of the individuals people are laughing at when this thread is brought back a couple years from now?

I just can't stand people jumping on the "bust bandwagon" these days. I understand this is a society where people are judged on what they have done, rather than what they're expected to do, but what's wrong with having a little faith in the assessments of the world's best basketball scouts? If there was even the slightest possibility that Darko would never become a star, or at the least become a serviceable NBA player, do you think Joe Dumars would have put his reputation on the line by taking him? Do you think the scouts for Detroit would have put their jobs on the line by urging the team to take Darko over Carmelo? If they didn't feel like Darko would become the better player they wouldn't have taken him. It's as simple as that.

I liked another post in this thread that stated that everything is going according to plan so far. I couldn't have put it better myself. Detroit never once said they'd give Darko playing time this year and they haven't. What else did you expect to happen?

I'm looking forward to seeing him play in the Summer League during the off-season. Until then, I don't see how anyone can say anything negative about Darko. And no, I'm not naive enough to think that success in Summer League play equates to success in the NBA, but at least we'll have a better idea of where he's at in his progress, by actually watching him play.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rainman</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> besides is there anyone foolish enough to say dirk isnt one of the 10 best players in the world.


Good question. If Dirk isnt top 10, he is certainly close. Pretty good for soft and no D or boards. 

Shaq
Kobe
Tmac
Duncan
Lebron
KG

These are guys I list as for sures

the top 10 bubble

Pierce
Peja
Webber
Iverson
Kidd
Dirk
Davis


I am sure there are people I have missed but that has to be fairly close


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Good question. If Dirk isnt top 10, he is certainly close. Pretty good for soft and no D or boards.
> ...


i think in the case of iverson and webber they are their on reputation,for the same reason i wouldnt have lebron in the top ten, yet. if he's there then yao should be there too.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rainman</b>!
> 
> 
> i think in the case of iverson and webber they are their on reputation,for the same reason i wouldnt have lebron in the top ten, yet. if he's there then yao should be there too.


Yao, thats a big ommission on my part. over the past 2 months, he certainly is a top 10 player in the world. But youll still hear people call him soft. Jeez, I wonder why?


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Melo is not going to win a championship for us now, and he isn't going to win a championship for us in the future. That's my opinion. Darko Milicic, on the other hand, if he can develop into the player we all hope he can be, he's the type of guy that could lead us to a championship. I thought we were doing the East a favor, by not letting yet another possible dominant big go over to the Western Conference? It's no secret the reason that the West is so much better is directly rooted to the fact that they have all the great big bodies (outside Jermaine O'Neal).


Great posts all around everyone, especially jvan. 

As for the Jermaine O'Neal comparison it is a decent one, but not great IMO. I simply do not believe Darko is athletic enough to play at a level as J O'Neal in 4-5 seasons. Can you honestly say that Darko is athletic enough to become a dominant center? More importantly, does he have a similar run/jump/coordination as JONeal? Hmm.. that's a reach.

I actually believe, and please disagree if you must, that Darko compares quite favorably with his teammate Okur. Sweet outside stroke, nice rebounder and defender, likes to mix it up down low. Darko probably has a little more athleticism and bigger frame but I see Darko's game evolving into something like Okur now. JMO from watching 6-7 games of young Darko this season.

As for the argument that Darko will 'dominate as a big man' because there are so little good big men in the NBA... I'll use the same thinking as for Tyson and Eddy. Mainly, its not going to happen. Every year there is an influx of big men in the draft and guess what... all their teams are waiting for them to develop too. Just because you're 1) young and 2) big doesn't necessarily mean you'll be dominating the league in 2-3 years. It doesn't work out like that. There are some rare exceptions, but for grins lets take a look at the young big men in the L.

STUDS under 30:
Jermaine O'Neal - 25 years old
Tim Duncan - 27
Brad Miller - 27
Yao Ming - 23

MADE SPLASH:
Sam Dalembert - 22
Carlos Boozer - 22
Nene - 21
Jamaal Magloire - 25
Chris Bosh - 20
Stromile Swift - 24
Mehmet Okur - 24 (teammate)

DOGGIE-PADDLE:
Eddy Curry - 21
Tyson Chandler - 21
Chris Kaman - 21
Kwame Brown - 22
<b>Darko Milicic - 18</b>

ON THE HORIZON:
Pavel, Howard/Okafor, Perovic, and others

Now I don't know about you, but I'm not expecting the guys listed here to shrivel up and die in 3 years time so that Darko can begin to dominate against them. I could have included some pure 4's in there like Amare or ZBo but it complicates the argument. The point is, just because you're young and big doesn't entitle you to anything in this league. So I'd be careful before putting too many lofty expectations on this kid. Peace.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> basic ethno-centric garbage on this thread. Darko is soft, some would say? Same people who probably think black guys are raw and white players are unathletic. Its BS. Darko has a mean streak, and will show it when he is given a chance. I saw the guy play 4 times last year. And he is as rough and tumble as they come. Ask Unbellievable, who happens to live in Greece and saw him play plenty. Lets call him soft! Its about as uneducated an opinion as I have heard in awhile. Obviously, whoever thinks this has no knowledge of Millicic whatsoever. Darko is on a team with a coach who hates rookies, they dont need him to play, and they are going to sit him down. They will bring him along the right way. And by this time next year, I bet most of us will be acknowledging that Darko, not Curry, is the best young center in the east.


How can you say Darko's play this year has been anything but soft? Granted hes only been getting rare minutes, but when he gets burn he hasn't given a passable effort. It looks like Darko doesn't even care... but I guess thats me just being Ethno-Centric, I love those Americans???

nmuman: I can't believe I made the coach mistake, still Carlisle was also hesitant to play rookies. There is no way in hell Carmelo rides the bench. I've read people in this thread critizing his D--I wonder what the hell they are talking about. He closes so fast... there is just another gear. Much of Detroit seems to be in denial don't of how good he is. The league pulled two legit superstars from the draft this fall. That doesn't take anything away from Darko, but it does take away from the decision to draft him.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> How can you say Darko's play this year has been anything but soft? Granted hes only been getting rare minutes, but when he gets burn he hasn't given a passable effort. It looks like Darko doesn't even care... but I guess thats me just being Ethno-Centric, I love those Americans???
> ...


he hasnt played basically this year. I have seen enough of this kid to tell you he is all effort. To throw him out there in garbage time for 30 seconds isnt going to give a clear picture of who he is. He isnt soft. And the fact that people say that he is, that he doesnt board or doesnt D up, when they havent seen him play, is ethnocentric generalizations


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## thrillhouse (Apr 18, 2003)

also, in the pre-draft camps, darko was scoring equal or better to carmello in many of the athleticism drills.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>thrillhouse</b>!
> also, in the pre-draft camps, darko was scoring equal or better to carmello in many of the athleticism drills.


Was he? i thought Darko couldnt make it over cause of issues with Hemopharm?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

This Darko talk is ridiculous...

If they thought highly enough to take him over Carmelo they must have saw a lot in the kid...

I think I'm going to trust Tony Ronzone and the rest of the Pistons organization's opinion over guys here who have formed their opinions based on seeing him play at the end of blowouts for a couple of minutes.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Was he? i thought Darko couldnt make it over cause of issues with Hemopharm?


He wasn't at the pre-draft camps, they were Pistons workouts. But his times for agility and lateral quickness were better than anybody over 7'0" the Pistons had ever tested.

One thing I definately don't question about Darko is his athleticism. Everybody else seems to because of that incident with the rim in Cleveland. He doesn't run the floor that well, which I think is more an issue of conditioning, but in the half court he is unbelievably quick, expecially on defense. He has shown the ability to cover guards straight up on the perimeter.

Also on defense, he is a pretty physical defender, expecially when you see him compared to other European players. He has really beaten up guys like Tskitishvilli and Brezec in the post and at times has been overly physical and has gotten into foul trouble even in short minutes.

A lot of his problems this year have come from the fact that he has tried to do too much. He gets in the game with 20,000 people chanting his name waiting for him to do something, it has to be tough. I thought he did a really good job against Orlando last night of not forcing things. He was passing the ball (another thing he is very good at) and waiting for the offense to come to him instead of forcing it to please the fans and ended up with an easy dunk. He also had a steal and a block (plus 2 more blocks I think the scorer screwed him on) in only 5 minutes. 

And Melo is a horrible defender. He gets burned all the time and is pretty lazy to boot.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Wow lots of potshots are Melo's defense on this board. Some of it deserved, most of it not.

As fans we can only judge a player based on what we see. After almost one full season, Melo is an A- and Darko a D+. Now I wish I could have rolled with Tony Ronzone and John Hammond and Scott Perry and Chad Ford (who went to the former Yugoslavia btw) and been privy to some of inside scouting that has taken place worldwide for the Pistons. But none of us are (minus maybe rlucas of course), yet all of us are entitled to our opinions.

All we have to go on are the blessings of Tony Ronzone and his lapdog Chad Ford. Right. But scouting is an inexact science, its hit-or-miss and only time will tell. As a bloodied Bulls fan, I would just recommend to be careful of putting too much expectations in young bigs to become the next big thing. More times than not, it won't happen.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

I'd give Darko an incomplete..

Not a D-....

He hasn't played enough meaningful situations to really be warranted a grade...

A guy like Sweeney though has...


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> I'd give Darko an incomplete..
> 
> Not a D-....
> ...


Well I'm grading him on 1 year in the league. As for career, incomplete of course.

As for Sweetney, undersized 4's are a dime a dozen in this league. Yet GMs still insist on drafting many of them high. Eesh.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Well I'm grading him on 1 year in the league. As for career, incomplete of course.
> ...


As I said, he hasn't played enough in this year to really warrant a fair grade.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> As I said, he hasn't played enough in this year to really warrant a fair grade.


Sweetney is averaging 10 minutes a game. Not much to shake at either.

How bout we throw out grades and just say 'one bad year'?


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> he hasnt played basically this year. I have seen enough of this kid to tell you he is all effort. To throw him out there in garbage time for 30 seconds isnt going to give a clear picture of who he is. He isnt soft. And the fact that people say that he is, that he doesnt board or doesnt D up, when they havent seen him play, is ethnocentric generalizations


We've both seen him play. It's not like garbage minutes don't count. His NBA ****s been weak all season. It's fair to say that you have faith in his improvement because you've seen him produce in Europe, but its not acceptable to call people names because they color his season exaclty what it has been--an unmitigated disaster. Oh yeah, go America???


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Sweetney is averaging 10 minutes a game. Not much to shake at either.
> ...


Well if we're going to look at stats...

Sweetney plays 10 MPG
Darko plays 4 PMG

Sweetney's most min. in a game is 27
Darko's is 12...

You also know that Darko's PT comes in blowouts when the game has already been decided, Sweetney has actually been in the game when it still mattered.

I'm not even necessarily saying I'd give Sweetney a terrible grade or say he's had a bad year, I guess he has when you consider him being the pick he was and he really hasn't done that much.

Milicic wasn't expected to do anything from jump and hasn't even been put in a situation to where he could and it would make a difference.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

There are two things that I mainly want to comment on:



> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> DOGGIE-PADDLE:
> Eddy Curry - 21
> Tyson Chandler - 21
> ...


All the guys listed above in this "doggie-paddle" section have received significant playing time, save one. I don't see how he can be classified in the same group as these guys. Do you think Darko has looked poor in the playing time he has received? You say he compares favorably to Mehmet Okur who you list in your "Made Splashes" category. I'm definately missing your point, here and I apologize for that. 

I don't see how it's unfair to expect Darko to be better than alot of the guys that are on your list. Afterall he came into the league with huge expectations and a ton of potential, and I have seen nothing really that would dispute he has that talent.


Second thing I wanted to focus on is that people keep saying Darko doesn't put out the effort when he is on the court. To that I really don't know what to say. I've watched him everytime he's been on the court and I can't ever remember seeing him not put out effort. When he gets out there I would say he's overly agressive and trying to do too much. When he gets the ball he'll make a post move, puts up a shot. On defense, he does a step out on perimeter guys and in the paint he lets no shot be uncontested. I don't know what to say, I haven't seen effortless play out of him, atleast that I can remember off the top of my head. 

Another thing, Darko is not soft. The way he plays is different than other Europeans. Again, I don't know where that is coming from. After watching him on a consistent basis, I can say his defense is well ahead of his offense. He's shown glimpses of being a superb paint defender, and he's strong in the post. He still has loads to learn, but to call him your typical soft European is quite a generalization.

Another thing I noticed and wanted to comment on:



> As for the Jermaine O'Neal comparison it is a decent one, but not great IMO. I simply do not believe Darko is athletic enough to play at a level as J O'Neal in 4-5 seasons. Can you honestly say that Darko is athletic enough to become a dominant center? More importantly, does he have a similar run/jump/coordination as JONeal? Hmm.. that's a reach.


Of course it's not an exact match, but I would say it's a leaps and bounds better comparison than that of Dirk Nowitzki. Wouldn't you agree? Darko's athleticism is actually quite good, as Mike stated earlier. I think one of the reasons Darko could develop into a dominant center is because of his athleticism. He moves around very well, and has good leaping ability along with quickness in his post moves. While Shaquille O'Neal has much athleticism, I'd say he dominated moreso because of brute strength. That's not Darko at all, his forte is being so big with good coordination and good athleticism.

If he keeps working as hard as he has worked this season, I definately think he can develop into the player the Pistons were hoping for. Darko has followed a Ben Wallace weight program and I wish I could find a side by side of his build. There has been quite a noticeable difference in his muscle mass from day one until now. He has shown dedication this year, which is more than you can say for alot of players. This leads me to believe he has a certain drive that you need to be a great player.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> We've both seen him play. It's not like garbage minutes don't count. His NBA ****s been weak all season. It's fair to say that you have faith in his improvement because you've seen him produce in Europe, but its not acceptable to call people names because they color his season exaclty what it has been--an unmitigated disaster. Oh yeah, go America???


Him being in the game when the outcome has already been decided IMO doesn't count.

Let's say they had to play Darko because of injuries for a couple games and he actually got good minutes to produce and actually make a difference in the outcome of a game, if he didn't, I could see where you're coming from, but he hasn't, so I disagree.

He's played in 31 games and the most he's ever played in a game is 12 minutes, and his average MPG is 4.2

That's not time at all to show what kind of player you are, especially in garbage time.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> Wow lots of potshots are Melo's defense on this board. Some of it deserved, most of it not.
> 
> As fans we can only judge a player based on what we see. After almost one full season, Melo is an A- and Darko a D+.


There hasn't been a rookie thats had a statistical impact comparable to Melo's since Elton Brand and Stevie Francis, 4 years ago. Nevermind the fact that Carmelo is younger then the above and contribes on a team that is making a push for the playoffs. If that only merits an A- I am avoiding your class.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> There hasn't been a rookie thats had a statistical impact comparable to Melo's since Elton Brand and Stevie Francis, 4 years ago. Nevermind the fact that Carmelo is younger then the above and contribes on a team that is making a push for the playoffs. If that only merits an A- I am avoiding your class.


Agreed...

If Melo's team makes the playoffs I don't see how he's not ROY.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Him being in the game when the outcome has already been decided IMO doesn't count.
> ...


I think even in garbage time, Darko has shown what kinds of things he is capable of. One of the best plays I've seen him make all year was when he stripped Earl Boykins of the basketball and then proceeded to lead the Pistons on a fast break. Made a very nice pass, and if not for the extra pass, would have been credited with an assist. He had a clean stuff of DaJuan Wagner on a dunk attempt (mind you this occurred as time was running out, hardly the thing someone that's not putting out effort would do). He's shown nice moves in the offensive post, making some sweet moves. I think what you can take out of his garbage time is that the talent is there already to be a very good NBA player. It's all a matter of capitalizing on that talent once he gets his time. Whether he develops into a superstar NBA player, we'll see. But, from what I have seen, he certainly can.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> We've both seen him play. It's not like garbage minutes don't count. His NBA ****s been weak all season. It's fair to say that you have faith in his improvement because you've seen him produce in Europe, but its not acceptable to call people names because they color his season exaclty what it has been--an unmitigated disaster. Oh yeah, go America???


No, what i said is that most of the Darko talk is really ethnocentric generalizations. There was no name calling. Not at you atleast CCCP. The point is, people say Darko is soft. He isnt. I have seen him play. I have heard that he is a nice Outside shooter and no inside game. Well that isnt what I saw in Europe. He doesnt play D, well, again, 5 blks per 48 minutes isnt bad. He doesnt board? 14 bds per 48 minutes. Is he as good as Melo? No, probably not. But to call him a bust, and then throw mass generalizations on a guy we havent seen play is kind of crass in my opinion. That isnt a dig on anyone, well, it kind of is on the original post


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

Sorry if it's already been posted, but I'm too lazy to scroll through everything here. 

A Detroit columnist ripped this article.

http://www.detroitsportsrag.com/articles/mossism040704.asp


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> Of course it's not an exact match, but I would say it's a leaps and bounds better comparison than that of Dirk Nowitzki. Wouldn't you agree? Darko's athleticism is actually quite good, as Mike stated earlier. I think one of the reasons Darko could develop into a dominant center is because of his athleticism. He moves around very well, and has good leaping ability along with quickness in his post moves. While Shaquille O'Neal has much athleticism, I'd say he dominated moreso because of brute strength. That's not Darko at all, his forte is being so big with good coordination and good athleticism.


Wow, nice jab at Shaquille O'Neal the most dominant center of our generation. He doesn't dominate because of brute strength, unless you think the Marcus Fizers and Jahidi Whites of the world are killing fools on the NBA court every night. Shaq has dominating because he is the rarest of rare. A big man with an unheard of combination of strength, coordination and explosiveness. Great body composition (3% bf as a rookie), coordiation, huge hands, and yes the mindset to dominate the opponent. Darko has a long, long way to go before they are mentioned in the same breath.



> If he keeps working as hard as he has worked this season, I definately think he can develop into the player the Pistons were hoping for. Darko has followed a Ben Wallace weight program and I wish I could find a side by side of his build. There has been quite a noticeable difference in his muscle mass from day one until now. He has shown dedication this year, which is more than you can say for alot of players. This leads me to believe he has a certain drive that you need to be a great player.


Again, let me reiterate this point. Darko is not going to dominate the post in the NBA based on his athleticism. Period. Not matter how much weight he lifts or speed drills he runs. We can get all wet about how he timed in pre-draft speed drills, but that doesn't say much... that is, unless you want to put a lot of stock in it. Kirk Penney, JR Bremer, Marcus Banks, and the like have floored scouts with nice workouts but you get on the court and its a different story.

Speaking of getting on the court, Darko looks like he's got a nice amount of coordination when he's out there. As for having a ton of quickness and explosiveness, haven't really seen it. That separates the good post players from the great ones. I'm not meaning to hate on this kid but my god... you can't heap all-world expectations on a kid to develop just because he's young and big and was drafted high. Just trying to give you DP fans an outside opinion of your players.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> You see, this is where the Sports Guy shows that he hasn't been paying attention. Obviously being a newlywed coupled with his stressful job of writing 'Audience Participation Theater ' and making Quentin Tarantino unfunny has caused him to miss a lot of NBA games this year.
> 
> He probably is relegated to watching Carmelo on Sportscenter highlights where he never misses a shot. Unfortunately ESPN doesn't show his defensive abilities or lack thereof.
> 
> ...


Detroit Fans:

This article should petrify you. Its an idictment of the McCarthyistic love being dished on Joe D. First off, the fact that he refers to Mello as Marshmellow the whole article is disturbing. We're talking about an all-star, a legit A level prospect who has established himself as one of the top 15 players in the league. Ole defense--hardly. Mello is so deceptively fast. I never thought he would hold his own in the pros but he closes faster than anyone. Rail on Melo for his shooting percentage all you want, but that is more reflective of the fact that he is the star the rely on when the shot clock is running low, then it is of weak shot selection. Has this cat even seen Anthony play this season? My guess is no. This homer writing style has the heirs of someone who never footed the bill for league pass.



> And I am sure the most unselfish team in pro sports would really be thrilled adding a guy who doesn't get warm until he has heaved his 20th shot up at the basket.


This is my favorite part. Most unselfish team in pro sports! Thats a hell of a statement... dont' you get the feeling that if Carmello was on the Pistons Jeff Moss would be riding his jock like a 16 year old at an Eminem concert.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

Just for the record: I was certainly not taking a 'jab' at Shaquille O'Neal. When people say he's one of the most overrated players in the league, I'm usually one of the first one sticking up for his play. I'd say he is the most dominant player in the NBA since Wilt Chamberlain. But, the fact remains that he has a large size and strength advantage over every player in the NBA. And don't think for a second he doesn't use that. He certainly does have wonderful explosiveness, but that still doesn't change the fact that he's way too strong for any player in the NBA to contain.

Vin, I think I've lost track of our argument here, as it has gone offtrack. I think we would both say that Darko has the potential to be a superstar in the league. You like to point out what you see wrong with his game, but I like to point out what I see is right with his game, obviously. But, I think we'd both agree that he has the type of talent and potential to be a great NBA player. Where I think you are wrong is matching him up against guys like Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, and Tyson Chandler. While they are all still young, Darko is still 2 years younger. And while they have all gotten time on the court, Darko hasn't. I think before we start making definate claims about what Darko <b>will</b> be we need to wait until he actually gets meaningful minutes (Next year?). 

What this argument is about, in my opinion, is Carmelo Anthony vs. Darko Milicic and whether the Pistons made the correct pick. I'm going to wait a few years before I make that ultimate final decision, but as of now, I'll say it was the right pick and you'll say it was the wrong pick. I don't really know where to go from here, so I guess we'll have to do the much underused "agree to disagree" thing.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Just for the record: I was certainly not taking a 'jab' at Shaquille O'Neal. When people say he's one of the most overrated players in the league, I'm usually one of the first one sticking up for his play. I'd say he is the most dominant player in the NBA since Wilt Chamberlain. But, the fact remains that he has a large size and strength advantage over every player in the NBA. And don't think for a second he doesn't use that. He certainly does have wonderful explosiveness, but that still doesn't change the fact that he's way too strong for any player in the NBA to contain.
> 
> Vin, I think I've lost track of our argument here, as it has gone offtrack. I think we would both say that Darko has the potential to be a superstar in the league. You like to point out what you see wrong with his game, but I like to point out what I see is right with his game, obviously. But, I think we'd both agree that he has the type of talent and potential to be a great NBA player. Where I think you are wrong is matching him up against guys like Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, and Tyson Chandler. While they are all still young, Darko is still 2 years younger. And while they have all gotten time on the court, Darko hasn't. I think before we start making definate claims about what Darko <b>will</b> be we need to wait until he actually gets meaningful minutes (Next year?).
> ...


jvan, I guess I've lost track of what the original argument was too  But this thread has been an enjoyable one to read and lots of good verbiage from all sides.

Its a wait-and-see with Darko, as with many young players in this L. I stand by my Melo over Darko at #2 opinion, but we can agree to disagree. The fact is, the Pistons are in great shape the next few seasons whether Darko contributes a lot or not. I don't know if Larry Brown is helping the situation or not, but when you have Joe Dumars and royal-arse kicker Ben Wallace on your side pushing you.. it definitely helps. We shall see.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

The ironic thing is that Darko may have to traded this summer if Detroit wants to sign both Memo and Sheed long term.

I wish we had a GM that was screwing up as badly as Dumars. 

If they keep Sheed long-term, that team is scary for years.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!And Campbell isn't expected to be around long anyway. In fact, I would expect Campbell to be picked up by Charlotte.


This is a bigger pipe dream than assuming that Darko can likely to be as good as Melo in the future.

For the mere fact that they might luck into Memo, the Bobcats will never draft Campbell.


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Care to make a wager??!!?!?

I think it is pretty much set in stone that Easy will be a Bobcat next year.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> The ironic thing is that Darko may have to traded this summer if Detroit wants to sign both Memo and Sheed long term.


Excuse me while I laugh... that would never, ever happen. The most likely scenario is that Okur is gone, Joey D uses the money he was going to spend on the Turk to resign Sheed. If you think Darko would be traded to accommodated Mehmet Okur, you're in for a big surprise.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

The Bobcats have said they are looking for two types of players: young guys at a low price, and veterans in the last year of their deal.

Elden is the second. ESPN insider did a mock expansion draft a couple months ago and they had Elden as the first pick.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> The Bobcats have said they are looking for two types of players: young guys at a low price, and veterans in the last year of their deal.
> 
> Elden is the second. ESPN insider did a mock expansion draft a couple months ago and they had Elden as the first pick.


And Chad Ford has never been wrong. It ain't happening......


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> Excuse me while I laugh... that would never, ever happen. The most likely scenario is that Okur is gone, Joey D uses the money he was going to spend on the Turk to resign Sheed. If you think Darko would be traded to accommodated Mehmet Okur, you're in for a big surprise.


It's a far more likely scenerio than the Bobcats take Elden Campbell. Why would the Bobcats help fix one of Dumar's screwups? The going rate to take a stiff like Campbell to help a team with their cap position is one to two first round draft picks.


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## Brian. (Jul 11, 2002)

The Bobcats will probably take Elden. Even though he is on his last legs he is still a pretty decent center especially in the eastern conference. It doesn't hurt he only has one year left on his contract either.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Brian</b>!
> The Bobcats will probably take Elden. Even though he is on his last legs he is still a pretty decent center especially in the eastern conference. It doesn't hurt he only has one year left on his contract either.


He was decent 2 years ago, maybe.

Stranger things have happened but I don't think it's likely. Corie Blount for $1M will give you as much game.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> He was decent 2 years ago, maybe.
> ...


Agreed.

Pistons fans are off their collective rocker if they think they can get rid of Elden without giving up something pretty good to the Bobcats. I'm not even sure a future first-rounder will be enough, since the Pistons are a great team and will be a great team for quite awhile, so the pick will suck. Maybe Carlos Delfino AND a future first-rounder would get it done.

As someone else said, why can't the Bobcats just not take on any bad contracts and use their cap space to sign Okur themselves?


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> It's a far more likely scenerio than the Bobcats take Elden Campbell. Why would the Bobcats help fix one of Dumar's screwups? The going rate to take a stiff like Campbell to help a team with their cap position is one to two first round draft picks.


The rumoured deal is Campbell, a 1st rounder and $3 million.

And as for any trade scenario for Darko Milicic being any skerrick of "likely" - forget about it.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> The rumoured deal is Campbell, a 1st rounder and $3 million.


Well, I think it's far more likely that Utah since they are out of conference would go for this deal. But that's what it will take to move Campbell at the minimum.



> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> And as for any trade scenario for Darko Milicic being any skerrick of "likely" - forget about it.


Mate, I have no idea what you are saying...


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> Mate, I have no idea what you are saying...


You said Detroit trading to Darko Milicic to accommodate MEHMET OKUR was more likely than Charlotte taking Elden Campbell (I think). I say - Joe Dumars, if he enjoys his position as Detroit GM, would never ever trade Milicic before his talents come to fruition let alone to accommodate you know who.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> 
> 
> You said Detroit trading to Darko Milicic to accommodate MEHMET OKUR was more likely than Charlotte taking Elden Campbell (I think). I say - Joe Dumars, if he enjoys his position as Detroit GM, would never ever trade Milicic before his talents come to fruition let alone to accommodate you know who.


Yes. It is more likely. 

Now, if all the Detroit homers had said, "I bet we can use a first round draft pick and $3M to dump Campbell to the Bobcats or a team with cap space", that's a different story.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> As someone else said, why can't the Bobcats just not take on any bad contracts and use their cap space to sign Okur themselves?


I know the Bobcats only get to use a "part" of the salary cap. I don't know the exact number or percentage, but they only get partial. I don't how much the Bobcats would be willing to throw out to Okur, but Joe D. has said we will match offers for Okur. I gotta believe he'd still do that unless the Bobcats offer him a max or near max deal and I don't know if the Bobcats are willing to use the "little" cap room the have for Okur.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> Yes. It is more likely.


Go ahead and say how it is more likely then, as Joe Dumars will not trade Darko Milicic under the circumstances you mention.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> 
> 
> Go ahead and say how it is more likely then, as Joe Dumars will not (as in WILL NOT) TRADE DARKO F'N MILICIC.


Right. Darko is not getting traded anytime soon, unless he gets an offer for someone like Duncan or Garnett, which of course will also not happen. 

Face it, some fans are already "mad" and disagree with Joe D.'s decision to pass on Melo for Darko. Traded him would be devastating. Fans would be calling for his head if he did something like this so soon. Trading Darko is a lose-lose situation for the Pistons. Trade him now and you are always known for passing on Melo unnecessarily and you also run the risk of him developing into the superstar you thought he would be in another uni. Darko's here to stay.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> I know the Bobcats only get to use a "part" of the salary cap. I don't know the exact number or percentage, but they only get partial. I don't how much the Bobcats would be willing to throw out to Okur, but Joe D. has said we will match offers for Okur. I gotta believe he'd still do that unless the Bobcats offer him a max or near max deal and I don't know if the Bobcats are willing to use the "little" cap room the have for Okur.


By my math, if Sheed resigns with the Pistons for $10M or more in the first contract year, the Pistons will not be able to match more than a MLE deal for Memo unless they move 2 of these players (Wallace (not happening), Rip, Billips, Campbell, Corliss, Darko). 

A team like Utah or even the Bobcats might very well offer a Memo a decent contract above the MLE. Utah gave a solid offer to Terry last summer. Memo would be worth as much to Utah, right?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> Face it, some fans are already "mad" and disagree with Joe D.'s decision to pass on Melo for Darko. Traded him would be devastating. Fans would be calling for his head if he did something like this so soon. Trading Darko is a lose-lose situation for the Pistons. Trade him now and you are always known for passing on Melo unnecessarily and you also run the risk of him developing into the superstar you thought he would be in another uni. Darko's here to stay.


What if they get to the championship or even win with Sheed and Memo?


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> What if they get to the championship or even win with Sheed and Memo?


The cost of keeping Memo would still outweigh the price of not developing Darko, who the Pistons selected to lead them to multiple championships.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> 
> 
> The cost of keeping Memo would still outweigh the price of not developing Darko, who the Pistons selected to lead them to multiple championships.


Joe Dumars isn't as emotional about this as you guys are. His first concern will not be about devasting "mad" fans.

Clearly, he is very comfortable about going a different direction quickly. See Mateen Cleeves, Rodney White, etc.

I guess we will just have to see how everything unfolds. Could be some tough choices.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Joe Dumars isn't as emotional about this as you guys are. His first concern will not be about devasting "mad" fans.
> ...


Cleaves and White weren't exactly the #2 pick in potentially the best draft of all-time, buster. If Dumars trades Milicic after one season see he a) admits that he was at fault for drafting him over Melo and b) risks having him bust out anyway, for another team. Both which would be seen as grounds for termination by the club owner. It's not that hard to understand, surely.


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## nmuman (Nov 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL, you just lost all credibility!

Please, please, please tell me that was a joke!


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> Cleaves and White weren't exactly the #2 pick in potentially the best draft of all-time, buster. If Dumars trades Milicic after one season see he a) admits that he was at fault for drafting him over Melo and b) risks having him bust out anyway, for another team. Both which would be seen as grounds for termination by the club owner. It's not that hard to understand, surely.





> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> LOL, you just lost all credibility!


Looks like we have to agree to disagree.

IMHO, it's the Detroit homers that have lost all credibilty by indicating there is no scenerio (other than getting Duncan or Garnett) that would have Dumars trade Darko even to keep both Memo and Sheed *even if the Pistons win it all this year without any help from Boy Wonder*


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I did not literally mean just Duncan and Garnett. If Darko is traded if will have to be for an extremely talented player, because that's what the Pistons organization still feels he will become. They will not trade him simply because they won the championship without a significant contribution from the "Boy Wonder". Joe Dumars had done nothing but a great job since he's had the GM position obviously -- he has gotten Sheed for nothing, handpicked Ben Wallace, got Rip Hamilton for an aging Stackhouse, etc. There is no reason to believe he won't be able to re-sign Sheed, Memo, and keep Darko in the fold if he so wishes.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

How many people here believe Duncan will one day brace himself for combat with Darko the same way he does for Shaq and even Yao?

How old is Duncan anyway?


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> How many people here believe Duncan will one day brace himself for combat with Darko the same way he does for Shaq and even Yao?
> 
> How old is Duncan anyway?


It's much too early to tell. I don't see how you can make a decision on whether Darko will be a great player, a good player, or a bust afterall.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

Why exactly would Rasheed Wallace demand 5 million more per season than what he would could get with the New York Knicks, where he seemingly wanted to go?

Rasheed Wallace is not going to cost the Pistons 10 million dollars per season. And if for some reason beyond belief that he did demand that kind of money, he wouldn't get it from Detroit.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Why exactly would Rasheed Wallace demand 5 million more per season than what he would could get with the New York Knicks, where he seemingly wanted to go?


Please. This arguement does not float.



> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!Rasheed Wallace is not going to cost the Pistons 10 million dollars per season. And if for some reason beyond belief that he did demand that kind of money, he wouldn't get it from Detroit.


That should be the real question. Not if Darko will ever be as good as Melo. Will he ever be as good as Sheed?


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Ok there is no way in hell Dumars will trade Darko to keep Okur.

It is also very likely that the Bobcats will take Elden Campbell in the expansion draft.

Remember, Charlotte HAS to draft 15 players, and can only take one per team. That means over 50% of NBA teams will have a player drafted by the Bobcats. Elden Campbell will be the only player left unprotected by Detroit, and he has an expiring contract. I'm not even sure there will be 15 teams offering expiring contracts in the draft.

Charlotte doesn't WANT 15 players from the expansion draft, but they have to take them. If Detroit feels the need to persuade them, suggesting they would have to give up 1st round picks is ridiculous. All they would have to do is offer the 4 million dollars that EC's contract is worth. Charlotte would draft Elden, take the money, and then cut him. He wouldn't count against their salary cap and Detroit would have given them the money to pay for his 1 remaining year. They loose absolutely nothing, and they burn off one of those required picks for free.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> It is also very likely that the Bobcats will take Elden Campbell in the expansion draft...
> If Detroit feels the need to persuade them, suggesting they would have to give up 1st round picks is ridiculous.


a. Bobcats need to draft 14, not 15, players

b. Teams like Detroit can only send $3M in a deal, not more

c. Chris Ford said that it would cost the Pistons a first rounder and $3M to entice the Bobcats to take Campbell

d. _To the other posters raving about Campbell's skills._Chris Ford also said that the Bobcats would cut Campbell b/c he is not worth a $4M+ cap hit when they only have $31M to spend this off-season.

Sorry to bust up any dreams......

http://www.bobcatsfans.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6


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