# Top 5 PFs in the NBA coming into the 2012-2013 season



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Who do you think are the top 5 PFs?

Just for argument sake, Melo and Bron are not PFs and Chris Bosh is no more of a C than Howard is a PF.

I'm curious what the results will be.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Kevin Love. Tim Duncan. Kevin Garnett. Pau Gasol. Dirk Nowitzki.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Seems eccentric as James is going to start at the PF spot for the Heat. Anyway, Garnett's Boston's starting center this year, no one knows who their PF's going to be. Honestly if the Hawks could ever find a center I'd stick Horford on my top 5 list. That being said:

Dirk Nowitzki
LaMarcus Aldridge
Kevin Love
Timmeh
Josh Smith


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## TheAnswer (Jun 19, 2011)

Love
Dirk
LMA
Timmy D
Pau Pau Gasol


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

If KG doesn't count, I put forth LMA to complete my list. 

I think the Top 5 is pretty solidified, hopefully we see a couple of new faces enter the discussion this year. (probably a more interesting topic)


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm a huge LMA fan. He's the best of the younger crop, I think.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

E.H. Munro said:


> Seems eccentric as James is going to start at the PF spot for the Heat. Anyway, Garnett's Boston's starting center this year, no one knows who their PF's going to be. Honestly if the Hawks could ever find a center I'd stick Horford on my top 5 list. That being said:
> 
> Dirk Nowitzki
> LaMarcus Aldridge
> ...


I can agree with this list. Aldridge doesn't get the attention that Kevin Love or Blake Griffin do, but I do think he has a bigger impact on the game.


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

A lot of hate on Blake Griffin. From what i've seen in the pre season he has improved his jump shot and his defense! Look for him to emerge into a top pf in the game


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Pau is still a top-5 power forward. 

Dirk, Love, Pau, Duncan, Griffin (in no order).


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

1. LaMarcus Aldridge
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Kevin Love
4. Blake Griffin
5. Chris Bosh


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

NOFX22 said:


> A lot of hate on Blake Griffin. From what i've seen in the pre season he has improved his jump shot and his defense! Look for him to emerge into a top pf in the game


I don't hate Griffin, but my top 5 list only has room for one offense-only player and that's Love for the moment. If Griffin keeps this up into the regular season he'll climb the list quickly.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

Basel said:


> Pau is still a top-5 power forward.
> 
> Dirk, Love, Pau, Duncan, Griffin (in no order).


Agree with this as the likely top 5. Love has the best shot at emerging as consensus top PF. I think it remains to be seen how much time Lebron really ends up logging at the 4 spot for the Heat.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Kevin Love
Dirk Nowitzki
LeMarcus Aldridge
Tim Duncan
Josh Smith

And I'm very interested (and dumbfounded) in the ones that have Aldridge above Kevin Love. Please, do explain your reasoning, because I honestly don't see it. 

And no one's "hating" on Blake Griffin. He has limited offense and his defense is average at best. We'll see if he's made some changes this season but for now, he hasn't done enough to deserve being on any top five list that isn't about dunkers.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

E.H. Munro said:


> I don't hate Griffin, *but my top 5 list only has room for one offense-only player and that's Love for the moment.* If Griffin keeps this up into the regular season he'll climb the list quickly.


Really? It isn't Dirk?

Edit: Actually I take that back Dirk did play some okay defense in his prime.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Basel said:


> Pau is still a top-5 power forward.


Gashole never had much of a defensive impact, and on the 2013 Lakers his offensive impact will be minimal. There's just not enough available production for him to be a top 5 PF given the defense (and his rapid aging).



XxIrvingxX said:


> And I'm very interested (and dumbfounded) in the ones that have Aldridge above Kevin Love. Please, do explain your reasoning, because I honestly don't see it.


There's a lot you don't see, obviously. But LMA is a _really_ good defensive 4 with a _really_ good offensive game. Criminally underrated.



XxIrvingxX said:


> Really? It isn't Dirk?
> 
> Edit: Actually I take that back Dirk did play some okay defense in his prime.


Dirk's an average defender with a high impact offensive game. Love to this day hangs his teammates out to dry to pad his rebounding numbers. The offensive game is finally good enough to overcome the defensive shortcomings, but he still makes Dirk look like a defensive anchor.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

E.H. Munro said:


> There's a lot you don't see, obviously. But LMA is a _really_ good defensive 4 with a _really_ good offensive game. Criminally underrated.


I know Aldridge is a good defender, and I know he's a good offensive player, but Love's offensive game still beats his on any given day and not to mention his rebounding, something that flat destroys the rebounding ability of Aldridge, largely makes up for his lack of defensive ability so I still don't see it. No possible way Aldridge is better than Love.





E.H. Munro said:


> Dirk's an average defender with a high impact offensive game. Love to this day hangs his teammates out to dry to pad his rebounding numbers.


Okay, I can agree with that.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

E.H. Munro said:


> Gashole never had much of a defensive impact, and on the 2013 Lakers his offensive impact will be minimal. There's just not enough available production for him to be a top 5 PF given the defense (and his rapid aging).


Actually, I think with all the attention Kobe, Dwight and Nash will get, Pau's going to have a huge impact. He'll be the forgotten star, so to speak. I'm expecting big things from him. He can focus solely on basketball this season and won't receive nearly as much attention as he has at any time prior in his career.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Dirk
Love
Aldridge
Pau
Griffin


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Even though I like Love I'm not going to put him first or second for the sole reason that a big man's primary responsibility on the basketball court is to be a defensive anchor. That's the most important thing and it's the same reason why Blake Griffin isn't on my list yet. His rebounding and diverse offensive skillset make him an intriuging prospect, but I'm not going to put him over a once in a generation offensive talent that plays adequate defense (Dirk) or a two way power forward that has shown me that he can be the best player on a playoff team (LaMarcus).


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Luke said:


> Even though I like Love I'm not going to put him first or second for the sole reason that a big man's primary responsibility on the basketball court is to be a defensive anchor. That's the most important thing and it's the same reason why Blake Griffin isn't on my list yet. His rebounding and diverse offensive skillset make him an intriuging prospect, but I'm not going to put him over a once in a generation offensive talent that plays adequate defense (Dirk) or a two way power forward that has shown me that he can be the best player on a playoff team (LaMarcus).


This.



Basel said:


> Actually, I think with all the attention Kobe, Dwight and Nash will get, Pau's going to have a huge impact. He'll be the forgotten star, so to speak. I'm expecting big things from him. He can focus solely on basketball this season and won't receive nearly as much attention as he has at any time prior in his career.


If Pau's usage rate surpasses 25 (and it won't) he won't be the other guy anymore. On a team with Bryant, Nash and Howard there just aren't going to be the possessions available for Gasol to be a major impact player on the offensive end. This didn't effect Garnett any when he came to Boston because he was able to dominate games defensively, but Gasol can't.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I mean Gasol is still going to put up some semblance of 16/10/3 out there, it's not like he's just another guy. I agree that Smith will probably have a better individual year next year (as will Horford) just because they will be much more significant components of a potential 8 seed, but I would still take Pau over everyone else. You underrate his defense, it's not stellar or necessarily consistent throughout the regular season, but this is the same guy that has given guys like Tim Duncan and Dwight Howard fits in the postseason.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

When healthy, Zach Randolph is definitely a top 5 power forward.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

If ZBo regains his 2011 form then absolutely.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I just realized how stacked the power forward position was.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Agreed, when a player as talented as Blake Griffin isn't even considered top 5 at his position than you know the position is doing well for itself.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

For Blake Griffin's sake he better be in the conversation by the end of the year. Kid has all of the necessary tools and with tweaks and adjustments here and there he should absolutely be number one on this list. I guess this season will be telling.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Luke said:


> I mean Gasol is still going to put up some semblance of 16/10/3 out there, it's not like he's just another guy. I agree that Smith will probably have a better individual year next year (as will Horford) just because they will be much more significant components of a potential 8 seed, but I would still take Pau over everyone else. You underrate his defense, it's not stellar or necessarily consistent throughout the regular season, but this is the same guy that has given guys like Tim Duncan and Dwight Howard fits in the postseason.


I'd say that playing next to Howard something like 16/8 is more realistic. And he'll be playing out of position this year as the primary helpside defender. So I just don't see the opportunity for him to produce the way he would have to to make the list. Nothing against his talent, let him play center somewhere else and he'd be one of the best in the NBA. It's just that he's playing on an all star team at the moment.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Luke said:


> I just realized how stacked the power forward position was.


probably because some of them should really be considered centers (which is a position with no depth at all league wide)


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

e-monk said:


> probably because some of them should really be considered centers (which is a position with no depth at all league wide)


Qft


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Luke said:


> Even though I like Love I'm not going to put him first or second for the sole reason that a big man's primary responsibility on the basketball court is to be a defensive anchor. That's the most important thing and it's the same reason why Blake Griffin isn't on my list yet. His rebounding and diverse offensive skillset make him an intriuging prospect, but I'm not going to put him over a once in a generation offensive talent that plays adequate defense (Dirk) or a two way power forward that has shown me that he can be the best player on a playoff team (LaMarcus).


So despite the fact that Love is clearly the better player of the two, and not only of the two but possibly in the entire league (at the PF spot anyways), he's automatically worse simply because he doesn't play much defense? First off I'd argue that in the game of basketball, a big man's primary responsibility would be rebounding, not defense, even though the big men who can defend will always be more effective than the small guys who can defend. Second, even if that is the case, it's still very clear who the better player is. It's not up for debate. Love wins. I will admit that he's become one of my favorite players, but that's not why I'm arguing this. People don't seem to realize just how good he's really become, at such a young age never the less.

Regardless, if Love can develop some kind of defensive abilities, the one thing that's keeping him from truly becoming a stand out superstar in the NBA, then we can expect some big things for not only Love, but for the Timberwolves as well.

Oh and am I the only one who's wondering how will Ibaka develop this season?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Wow are you guys overrating the shit out of LMA on the defensive end.

I love this forum for the fact its full of talking heads. 

"Aldridge is a great defender" -Whoever
"Ya! For sure. He's one of the tops! I'll change my list!....(I've never really seen him play)" -Talking heads

Guys ****ing above average at best. What the hell are you guys talking about?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

BlakeJesus said:


> Agreed, when a player as talented as Blake Griffin isn't even considered top 5 at his position than you know the position is doing well for itself.


He isn't in the conversation on this forum right now. Last year? People would be trying to lump him in with Love. This place is as hot/cold, popularity contest as it gets.

Next year people will be saying Love isn't top 5 on this place. That's how it works around here.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

R-Star said:


> He isn't in the conversation on this forum right now. Last year? People would be trying to lump him in with Love. This place is as hot/cold, popularity contest as it gets.
> 
> Next year people will be saying Love isn't top 5 on this place. That's how it works around here.


Herd mentality. I've been saying it for a while, it's the reason according to this site Carlos Boozer, Blake Griffin and Carmelo Anthony are terrible basketball players, Chris Paul was supposedly the 2nd best player in the league, Tim Duncan is one of the 3 best defenders of all-time, etc.

When an opinion is stated by a poster, particularly a popular one, it gets echoed a couple times and before you know it it's the consensus on this site and you're crazy if you don't agree.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

R-Star said:


> He isn't in the conversation on this forum right now. Last year? People would be trying to lump him in with Love. This place is as hot/cold, popularity contest as it gets.
> 
> Next year people will be saying Love isn't top 5 on this place. That's how it works around here.


People are just fickle. Z-bo is a top 5 power forward, he gets hurt and now he's not. Before being a top 5 power forward people started threads asking if teams could even win with him.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Without having read the thread the first names that came to mind were Love, Duncan, Griffin, Gasol and Zach Randolph... having seen Dirk's name I probably would include him and bump someone off, though I'm not sure who, Z-Bo maybe. 

Aldridge has a nice shot and a solid offensive repertoire but isn't a particularly good rebounder or defender for his position, at least not from what these eyes have seen.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

> @daldridgetnt: NBA to do away with the center position on its All-Star ballot. On http://t.co/9Z81Iej6: http://t.co/P6fA56zn


Welp..


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## 36 Karat (Nov 10, 2005)

Whoa, surprised to see so many lists still including Tim D. After two consecutive seasons of 28 mpg amidst the twilight of his career, not sure it can be justified to place him over K-Love, Blake, Pau, Zach Randolph(*), Dirk, Lamarcus..

One of the best PF's to ever play the game, it's just that he's no longer playing near the level he'll be remembered for.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Luke said:


> I just realized how stacked the power forward position was.



LMAO....I was in an out rage about ZBo not making early list and then I looked at the lists and was like...uh...uh...uh...totally reasonable. 2011 ZBo might not be a top 5 PF and that is saying something.

Alos, I think Blake Griffin is better than Kevin Love.. Yeah, I know it isn't popular but I think Griffin is the bigger impact player.

1. Chris Bosh
2. Tim Duncan
3. Blake Griffin
4. Dirk
5. Love


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Tim Duncan hasn't played power forward in many years. He's is not close to being eligible for this list. Kevin Garnett and Chris Bosh will be playing the majority of their minutes at center this season. They are also not eligible. Mine:


Lebron
KLove
Blake
Dirk
Greg Monroe {already better than Aldridge in my mind}


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Monroe plays the majority of his time at C. If you're going to be fickle, be conscientious and fickle at least.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

R-Star said:


> Wow are you guys overrating the shit out of LMA on the defensive end.
> 
> I love this forum for the fact its full of talking heads.
> 
> ...


Well imo Aldridge is definitely all star material, but I can't help but laugh when people say he's better than Love. Love is clearly the better offensive player and the better rebounder, and did a hell of a lot more for the Timberwolves than Aldridge did for the Trail Blazers and that is a fact. 



MemphisX said:


> Alos, I think Blake Griffin is better than Kevin Love.. Yeah, I know it isn't popular but I think Griffin is the bigger impact player.


WOW...that's a good one. I mean, Aldridge was bad enough but Griffin better then Love...wow. Just no. Not only does Love flat out destroy Griffin statistically, but in nearly ever game that they've played against each other, Love has completely outplayed Griffin in every way possible. I'm sure Griffin still has a very good memory of that game winning 3 pointer that Love buried against the Clippers at the buzzer when they played each other last year.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

RollWithEm said:


> Tim Duncan hasn't played power forward in many years. He's is not close to being eligible for this list. Kevin Garnett and Chris Bosh will be playing the majority of their minutes at center this season. They are also not eligible. Mine:
> 
> 
> Lebron
> ...


I don't think Monroe played more than spot minutes at PF, he was a center no doubt about it. Should start the year at C as well, though with Drummond there it is possible Monroe ends up playing more PF this season (could also see Drummond playing most of those PF minutes).


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

36 Karat said:


> Whoa, surprised to see so many lists still including Tim D. After two consecutive seasons of 28 mpg amidst the twilight of his career, not sure it can be justified to place him over K-Love, Blake, Pau, Zach Randolph(*), Dirk, Lamarcus..
> 
> One of the best PF's to ever play the game, it's just that he's no longer playing near the level he'll be remembered for.


I think it has something to do with his past, so you definitely are right there, but he also turned up his game in the playoffs. He's obviously not prime Timmy anymore, but 17.4/9.4/2.8 with 2.1 blocks and only 1.5 TO's in 33 mpg over 14 playoff games is still some high end production. He's probably getting the benefit of the doubt being listed on some of these lists, but he can still bring it.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

what if you split it out by role so that some of these PFs are listed as Cs because that's more of what they do, Pau is better at center, Timmy has been a center his entire career, Z-bo is probably more of an offensive center


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Going to be interesting to see where Anthony Davis is on these lists coming into next season.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Porn Player said:


> Monroe plays the majority of his time at C. If you're going to be fickle, be conscientious and fickle at least.


He will play the majority of his minutes at PF this season (the season we're talking about) because I believe Drummond will start.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I don't think Monroe's quick enough to be the primary help defender. I guess we'll see though. Haven't watched any Detroit games yet.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

XxIrvingxX said:


> WOW...that's a good one. I mean, Aldridge was bad enough but Griffin better then Love...wow. Just no. Not only does Love flat out destroy Griffin statistically, but in nearly ever game that they've played against each other, Love has completely outplayed Griffin in every way possible. I'm sure Griffin still has a very good memory of that game winning 3 pointer that Love buried against the Clippers at the buzzer when they played each other last year.


The thing is with Love is that the only argument people have for him are statistics. Now according to those statistics, he is a top 5 player. However, nobody can seriously say he is a top 5 player, so EVERYONE discounts the one thing that makes him a good player but nobody talks about that fact. Also, I have seen Zach Randolph use Kevin Love like a rag doll. So if one on one comparisons are your thing, Kevin Love ain't your man.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Love was underrated for a while and Blake was overrated during his rookie season. Now Love's put up some nice numbers on teams that were bad to marginal the last few years and he's the best power forward in the league. If the Wolves disappoint this year he'll be written off as a hollow stats guy, and then in two to three years he'll get traded to the Lakers and be a legitimate MVP candidate.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Nonsense!! Dwight, Rubio and Love will all take purple and gold MVP votes away from each other in LA...


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Love needs to show me numbers on a team that isn't awful before I call him the best anything. Do people not remember how bad the Wolves were after their rookie point guard went down for the season? You could attribute just as much credit to Rubio as Love for their start last year.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Luke said:


> Love needs to show me numbers on a team that isn't awful before I call him the best anything. Do people not remember how bad the Wolves were after their rookie point guard went down for the season? You could attribute just as much credit to Rubio as Love for their start last year.


All that's basically saying is that Kevin Love needed another quality player to make the team competitive. That could be said about any NBA star.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Going from fighting for a playoff spot to one of the worst teams in the league because a rookie point guard got injured is not an excuse for a guy who is apparently considered to be the best player at his position.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Luke said:


> Going from fighting for a playoff spot to one of the worst teams in the league because a rookie point guard got injured is not an excuse for a guy who is apparently considered to be the best player at his position.


They quit playing after Rubio was injured. No point fighting for 9th place when you can secure a quality draft pick instead.


You underrate the shit out of Love.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

There's no point in trying to win basketball games as a professional basketball player who has never come close to approaching a .500 season? Yeah that's not an excuse.

And under rate Love? That's news to me. I put him third on my list after a once in a generation offensive talent that isn't a liabilty on defense and another guy who can actually play both sides of the floor and has led his team to the playoffs. That seems perfectly fair for a guy who has won like 25% of the games he's played as a pro.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Luke said:


> There's no point in trying to win basketball games as a professional basketball player who has never come close to approaching a .500 season? Yeah that's not an excuse.
> 
> And under rate Love? That's news to me. I put him third on my list after a once in a generation offensive talent that isn't a liabilty on defense and another guy who can actually play both sides of the floor and has led his team to the playoffs. That seems perfectly fair for a guy who has won like 25% of the games he's played as a pro.


Oh, so we're back to saying Aldridge is a great defensive player because someone else said it?


He isn't. So no, sorry, terrible argument. 


Oh, speaking of LMA, the Blazers sucked for how many years of his career? Nope. Doesn't matter right?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

R-Star said:


> Oh, so we're back to saying Aldridge is a great defensive player because someone else said it?
> 
> 
> He isn't. So no, sorry, terrible argument.
> ...


LaMarcus Aldridge is an above average defensive player. Not great. It's just that Love is so awful defensively and defense is such an important facet of the game for big men that I can't justify putting him higher than third.

And LMA has been to the playoffs multiple times in his career and was the best player on a Trailblazers team that gave the eventual champion Dallas Mavericks their hardest series in the post season. I'll take that over lotto Love, but I actually care about winning more than a boxscore.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Luke said:


> LaMarcus Aldridge is an above average defensive player. Not great. It's just that Love is so awful defensively and defense is such an important facet of the game for big men that I can't justify putting him higher than third.
> 
> And LMA has been to the playoffs multiple times in his career and was the best player on a Trailblazers team that gave the eventual champion Dallas Mavericks their hardest series in the post season. I'll take that over lotto Love, but I actually care about winning more than a boxscore.


So he did a good job leading them in last years playoffs then?


And calm down with the box score schtick little guy. You're by no means some sort of basketball guru on this website.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

R-Star said:


> So he did a good job leading them in last years playoffs then?
> 
> 
> And calm down with the box score schtick little guy. You're by no means some sort of basketball guru on this website.


Nope. The Blazers have self destructed due to injuries and are in a rebuilding phase. He did make the playoffs the three seasons prior to that, though.

And the "box score schtick" has been a staple of my posting since 2008 when I joined this place. I very rarely use numbers to prove my point because I actually watch the games. I don't need a PER over 30 to know how great LeBron James is, but I can recognize that Kevin Love isn't as good as Larry Bird despite statistics telling me otherwise.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Luke said:


> Nope. The Blazers have self destructed due to injuries and are in a rebuilding phase. He did make the playoffs the three seasons prior to that, though.
> 
> And the "box score schtick" has been a staple of my posting since 2008 when I joined this place. I very rarely use numbers to prove my point because I actually watch the games. I don't need a PER over 30 to know how great LeBron James is, but I can recognize that Kevin Love isn't as good as Larry Bird despite statistics telling me otherwise.


Maybe the rest of us should start watching some games so we can be as all worldly as you when it comes to basketball.


That's sarcasm. This is a basketball website, I'm sure I'm not the only one who caught 20+ games that didn't involve my team last season. Not to mention I was blasting people who use PER before you even joined the site. Look it up if you'd like. 

Saying Kevin Love isn't as good as Larry Bird and saying he's worse than LMA are two completely different things.



Also, I don't feel I should have to explain this but.... You saying Portland didn't make it last year due to injuries after ripping Love and the Wolves for falling apart after their PG and second best player went down for the year is laughable. Not to mention its clear the Wolves have been rebuilding around their core of Love and Rubio, proven by the fact of how many fresh faces the team has this year. Something you used as an excuse of LMA and the Blazers, but slammed Love and the Wolves for.


Clearly, you're biased.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

R-Star said:


> Maybe the rest of us should start watching some games so we can be as all worldly as you when it comes to basketball.
> 
> 
> That's sarcasm. This is a basketball website, I'm sure I'm not the only one who caught 20+ games that didn't involve my team last season. Not to mention I was blasting people who use PER before you even joined the site. Look it up if you'd like.
> ...


It's funny how hard you're trying to turn me into the poster that comes into a thread with a holier than thou opinion that immediately shuts down everyone. That couldn't be further than the truth. I'm merely of the opinion that if you're the best player at your position than you should have the results to back up. Love doesn't. He's won a fourth of the games he's played as a pro and he's going into his fifth year.

You can say that Kevin Love is as good as Bird and that is the exact same thing people can put him above Aldridge for - boxscores. That is the only tangible edge that Love has over these guys. Bird, and Aldridge to a significantly lesser degree, have a bigger impact on the game and that's clearly visable from the simple eyeball test. 

Would you rather have Al Jefferson or Tyson Chandler as your starting center? The answer to this question should sum everything up that I've been trying to say this entire thread.

LaMarcus has been to the postseason three times. Love has never been there. That is a fact and you trying to twist a rookie's injury into an excuse as to why the apparent "best power forward in the league" has failed to make the postseason in four tries is not going to work.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Luke said:


> It's funny how hard you're trying to turn me into the poster that comes into a thread with a holier than thou opinion that immediately shuts down everyone. That couldn't be further than the truth. I'm merely of the opinion that if you're the best player at your position than you should have the results to back up. Love doesn't. He's won a fourth of the games he's played as a pro and he's going into his fifth year.
> 
> You can say that Kevin Love is as good as Bird and that is the exact same thing people can put him above Aldridge for - boxscores. That is the only tangible edge that Love has over these guys. Bird, and Aldridge to a significantly lesser degree, have a bigger impact on the game and that's clearly visable from the simple eyeball test.
> 
> ...


So you are going to skip over the clearly hypocritical points of your argument I pointed out then?

Classic.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

R-Star said:


> They quit playing after Rubio was injured. No point fighting for 9th place when you can secure a quality draft pick instead.


The T'wolves traded their 2012 #1 years ago. There was no motivation for the team to lose.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> The T'wolves traded their 2012 #1 years ago. There was no motivation for the team to lose.


But........ yea ok. Can't argue that.



They went 4 and 7 after Rubio's injury, which is bad, but not worst in the league bad like Luke is making them out to be. They then went 1 and 13 to finish the year, which to me seems like everyone just gave up once they saw they weren't making the playoffs.


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

So now going 5-20 over the final 25 games is an excuse because a rookie got injured. Okay.

And I addressed everything in your post.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Luke said:


> So now going 5-20 over the final 25 games is an excuse because a rookie got injured. Okay.
> 
> And I addressed everything in your post.


No, actually it was fleshed out 4 and 7 and finishing 1 and 13 when it was clear they weren't going to make the playoffs. I can elaborate and add thought to arguments and you can keep simplifying to try to muddle the argument though if you'd like.


And no again on you addressing everything, so I'll ask again if it wasn't clear.

You said Kevin Love has no excuse for the Wolves failing last year, even though they lost their second best player and point guard. After that you gave excuses as to why it was ok for LMA and Portland to fall out of the playoffs last year because they had injuries and are rebuilding.

Your posts addressed none of that. So I'll ask in clear and concise questions and you can answer them one by one.

1) Why is team injury an excuse for LMA's failure last season but not Love's?
2) Is it not clear to you the Wolves have been rebuilding around Love and Rubio? Because you seem to have it as an excuse for Portland, but not for Minnesota.


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

R-Star said:


> No, actually it was fleshed out 4 and 7 and finishing 1 and 13 when it was clear they weren't going to make the playoffs. I can elaborate and add thought to arguments and you can keep simplifying to try to muddle the argument though if you'd like.
> 
> 
> And no again on you addressing everything, so I'll ask again if it wasn't clear.
> ...


As EH already stated, the Wolves did not have a draft pick. They had no reason to finish 1-13. That is not an excuse, that's shitty basketball.

You can use the injury excuse with LMA because *he's already been to the playoffs three straight years*. If a team has a bad year because of injuries I can see that, but Love has never been in the playoffs, and the only year it was even a longshot that he had a chance a rookie point guard was apparently just as big of a catalyst based on the results.

Portland never rebuilded around LMA and I never said they did, so I'm not seeing where you're getting this excuse from. LMA was supposed to be the third star next to Brandon Roy and Greg Oden in a potential future dynasty but injuries destroyed two very promising careers, LMA was just good enough to keep the Blazers afloat during the process. Because he's a really good player.

You seem to think that I have some huge vendetta against Love for whatever reason. If KLove matches his production this year and the Wolves flirt with 50 wins then I have no problem giving credit where credit is due, but I'm not going to annoint a big man who plays absolutely no semblance of defense the title of best 4 in the game before he shows me he can do it and win basketball games.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Luke said:


> As EH already stated, the Wolves did not have a draft pick. They had no reason to finish 1-13. That is not an excuse, that's shitty basketball.
> 
> You can use the injury excuse with LMA because *he's already been to the playoffs three straight years*. If a team has a bad year because of injuries I can see that, but Love has never been in the playoffs, and the only year it was even a longshot that he had a chance a rookie point guard was apparently just as big of a catalyst based on the results.
> 
> ...


Uh, it was from you writing "....and Portland is in a rebuilding phase" directly after using injuries as an excuse for them. That's where I got it from... your posts.


The Timberwolves were a laughing stock after KG left, and finally traded Mayo for Love which turned out to be brilliant. Last year they finally got a decent player beside him to play and look what happened. Portland on the other hand has been solid for years. You talk about their playoff runs and refuse to mention that's when Roy was healthy and one of the better players in the league.

I mean, the way you're trying to blast the Wolves and then use the same arguments as excuses for Portland is just sad. You're trying way too hard here.


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

R-Star said:


> Uh, it was from you writing "....and Portland is in a rebuilding phase" directly after using injuries as an excuse for them. That's where I got it from... your posts.
> 
> 
> The Timberwolves were a laughing stock after KG left, and finally traded Mayo for Love which turned out to be brilliant. Last year they finally got a decent player beside him to play and look what happened. Portland on the other hand has been solid for years. You talk about their playoff runs and refuse to mention that's when Roy was healthy and one of the better players in the league.
> ...


Yeah Brandon Roy was certainly one of the better players in the league in 2011. He was really special off the bench against Dallas.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Luke said:


> Yeah Brandon Roy was certainly one of the better players in the league in 2011. He was really special off the bench against Dallas.


You're kidding me right? So that little sentence you made there negates the fact that Roy, not Aldridge was the key player during most of the 3 year playoff run you're talking about?



You're doing a terrible ****ing job here. Fold harder.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

R-Star said:


> You're kidding me right? So that little sentence you made there negates the fact that Roy, not Aldridge was the key player during most of the 3 year playoff run you're talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> You're doing a terrible ****ing job here. Fold harder.


While I'm sure that the 11-12 points per game that Roy was scoring in 2011 were _really_ important points, the fact remains that he only played half the year and only started 20-30 games. Aldridge was far and away the most important player on that team.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> While I'm sure that the 11-12 points per game that Roy was scoring in 2011 were _really_ important points, the fact remains that he only played half the year and only started 20-30 games. Aldridge was far and away the most important player on that team.


I addressed that. Luke is trying to put Aldridge at the helm of all 3 years of those playoff runs though. Lets not try to twist that please.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm pretty sure that like me he was an LMA skeptic until 2011. That year Aldridge opened a lot of eyes because he played a lot better when Roy wasn't around. And he pretty much carried a team whose second best player was Wes Matthews into the postseason.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> I'm pretty sure that like me he was an LMA skeptic until 2011. That year he opened everyone's eyes because he played a lot better when Roy wasn't around.


That's all well and good, but it doesn't make LMA the best player for the two years prior to Roy getting hurt.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Aldridge......is very good. He could definitely be the third-best player on a championship team. He might be able to be the sidekick to an all-time kind of guy, like Lebron or Shaq. I feel the same way about Love and Blake. With Duncan, KG, and Dirk aging/hurt/moving positions I don't know that there's really a franchise power forward left in the league.


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## 36 Karat (Nov 10, 2005)

BlakeJesus said:


> I think it has something to do with his past, so you definitely are right there, but he also turned up his game in the playoffs. He's obviously not prime Timmy anymore, but 17.4/9.4/2.8 with 2.1 blocks and only 1.5 TO's in 33 mpg over 14 playoff games is still some high end production. He's probably getting the benefit of the doubt being listed on some of these lists, but he can still bring it.


This is true. And it's never clear when comparing the value of physical production with experience, knowledge, and outright wisdom.



Luke said:


> *Love needs to show me numbers on a team that isn't awful before I call him the best anything.* Do people not remember how bad the Wolves were after their rookie point guard went down for the season? You could attribute just as much credit to Rubio as Love for their start last year.


If anything, it's more impressive what he has done with the relatively little talent Minnesota had surrounding him. Lack of other outlets puts the focus on him. The fact that he was able to produce in that scenario only validates his game, it doesn't take away from it. If he were on a stacked team you'd be saying "well they have other options, I need to see him on a mediocre team so he can prove himself individually".


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

*"And under rate Love? That's news to me. I put him third on my list after a once in a generation offensive talent that isn't a liabilty on defense and another guy who can actually play both sides of the floor and has led his team to the playoffs.* That seems perfectly fair for a guy who has won like 25% of the games he's played as a pro."

Um, no you didn't. You put him behind a guy who's clearly no longer in his prime, and isn't even coming close to making as much of an impact right now for the Mavericks as Kevin Love is for the Timberwolves, and a guy who clearly had a much better and more talented supporting cast then Kevin Love did, and the only reason he even led the Blazers to the playoffs was because Roy, their best player, got injured and ended up no longer being a starter. Blazers literally had no choice but to rely on Aldridge and Wesley Matthews, another person who deserves some credit here when talking about the Blazer's reaching the playoffs that year. 

I can see you wanting to hold off on saying Love is the best PF because we haven't seen him in the playoffs yet, but you are definitely giving Aldridge a lot more credit then he truly deserves. There's a reason why Aldridge hasn't been an all star yet, and don't bring up the fact that Love's gotten more hype, fact is Love's gotten more media attention because he deserves the attention he's getting. In the two seasons Love has been an all star, he has outplayed Aldridge completely (except for defensively of course but it isn't as one sided as you may think), and you know it.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

36 Karat said:


> If anything, it's more impressive what he has done with the relatively little talent Minnesota had surrounding him. Lack of other outlets puts the focus on him. The fact that he was able to produce in that scenario only validates his game, it doesn't take away from it. If he were on a stacked team you'd be saying "well they have other options, I need to see him on a mediocre team so he can prove himself individually".


_Somebody's_ going to put up points on an NBA squad. It's how we got Mike James: 20 point scorer. What most people want to see is exactly how much help Kevin Love needs for a team to contend. Rip Hamilton as the leading scorer on a championship team wasn't as impressive as Dirk as the leading scorer.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Bogg said:


> _Somebody's_ going to put up points on an NBA squad. It's how we got Mike James: 20 point scorer. What most people want to see is exactly how much help Kevin Love needs for a team to contend. Rip Hamilton as the leading scorer on a championship team wasn't as impressive as Dirk as the leading scorer.


Love and Rubio already showed that together, they're a playoff contender in the West. With the improved team this year, if Rubio comes back healthy I think a lot of people will shut up.


Some won't though. I assume Luke will try to put most of the success on Rubio, and act like its a knock against Love. When in reality, you don't win games with just 1 player.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

R-Star said:


> Love and Rubio already showed that together, they're a playoff contender in the West. With the improved team this year, if Rubio comes back healthy I think a lot of people will shut up.
> 
> 
> Some won't though. I assume Luke will try to put most of the success on Rubio, and act like its a knock against Love. When in reality, you don't win games with just 1 player.


I don't think Luke has any biased views towards Love, I just he's putting way to much emphasis on the fact that Love hasn't been able to lead the Timberwolves to the playoffs yet, which I think is stupid because even with Rubio the Timberwolves talent wise are still a joke of a team. This year will be interesting due to some of the new talent they have gotten.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I don't think Luke has any biased views towards Love, I just he's putting way to much emphasis on the fact that Love hasn't been able to lead the Timberwolves to the playoffs yet, which I think is stupid because even with Rubio the Timberwolves talent wise are still a joke of a team. This year will be interesting due to some of the new talent they have gotten.


I'm waiting on seeing the new team, but if Rubio comes back healthy and the team performs the way I think they should, then I'll accept Luke and others argument on Love if he doesn't make it this year.


This is the first year the Wolves have put a solid team around Love in my opinion.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

I don't know, with Love out to start the season and Rubio's return date murky, I could see the Wolves finishing ninth or tenth this year in a close playoff race. I agree that, if healthy, the Wolves are a virtual playoff lock. I also think Nik Pekovic is going to impress this year.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Bogg said:


> I don't know, with Love out to start the season and Rubio's return date murky, I could see the Wolves finishing ninth or tenth this year in a close playoff race. I agree that, if healthy, the Wolves are a virtual playoff lock. I also think Nik Pekovic is going to impress this year.


Pekovic has turned out to be a solid looking young center. There aren't many out there.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

R-Star said:


> Pekovic has turned out to be a solid looking young center. There aren't many out there.


He just might be good enough in the middle that the Wolves can contend if they turn Derrick Williams into an elite perimeter scorer.


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

R-Star said:


> You're kidding me right? So that little sentence you made there negates the fact that Roy, not Aldridge was the key player during most of the 3 year playoff run you're talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> You're doing a terrible ****ing job here. Fold harder.


LMA was the best player on a playoff team in 2011. That is a fact. He was also a allstar-lite bigman in the two previous years when the Blazers topped 50 games in consecutive seasons. 

I've said this like four times but I'll reiterate. If Love matches his current production and the Wolves make the playoffs then I'd have no problem putting him over LaMarcus. But he needs to show me winning basketball before I do so. It's not that complicated.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

E.H. Munro said:


> I'm pretty sure that like me he was an LMA skeptic until 2011. That year Aldridge opened a lot of eyes because he played a lot better when Roy wasn't around. And he pretty much carried a team whose second best player was Wes Matthews into the postseason.


Thank you.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

R-Star said:


> But........ yea ok. Can't argue that.
> 
> 
> 
> They went 4 and 7 after Rubio's injury, which is bad, but not worst in the league bad like Luke is making them out to be. They then went 1 and 13 to finish the year, which to me seems like everyone just gave up once they saw they weren't making the playoffs.


Not to mention Love essentially missed the last 8 games of the season too. He wasn't even there for half of that 1-13 finish.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

hobojoe said:


> Not to mention Love essentially missed the last 8 games of the season too. He wasn't even there for half of that 1-13 finish.


I actually don't remember that. If that was the case though, then this just essentially killed Luke's argument.


----------



## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

50% of defense is securing the rebound. Love is a top 3 defensive rebounder in the league. Saying he plays "no semblance of defense" is incorrect based solely on that fact.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

hobojoe said:


> Not to mention Love essentially missed the last 8 games of the season too. He wasn't even there for half of that 1-13 finish.


Yes, but the part of it that he was there they were 0-7.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I don't think Luke has any biased views towards Love, I just he's putting way to much emphasis on the fact that Love hasn't been able to lead the Timberwolves to the playoffs yet, which I think is stupid because even with Rubio the Timberwolves talent wise are still a joke of a team. This year will be interesting due to some of the new talent they have gotten.




Lead them to the playoffs? The T'Wolves have been a bottom 5 team his entire time there. I think people find and make excuses for Love. He is god awful defensively and puts up stats on terrible teams. Also, it ain't like he is a total ray of sunshine in sportmanship either but yet and still people keep uplifting him.

I think it is a bit hypocritical that some of the same people that cheerlead Love are some of the same people that led the LeBron smashing campaign on this board because LeBron was not winning enough.

Really should not be any excuse for them not to be in the playoffs this season. Compare the pass Kevin Love gets with the criticism Chris Bosh got when he was putting up 24/10. 

How many streaks of straight shit have the TWolves gone through with Love still being championed? 

I like when people say the TWolves quit...nah, Kevin Love quit.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> Yes, but the part of it that he was there they were 0-7.


Once they were already out of the playoff picture, yea.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Lead them to the playoffs? The T'Wolves have been a bottom 5 team his entire time there. I think people find and make excuses for Love. He is god awful defensively and puts up stats on terrible teams. Also, it ain't like he is a total ray of sunshine in sportmanship either but yet and still people keep uplifting him.
> 
> I think it is a bit hypocritical that some of the same people that cheerlead Love are some of the same people that led the LeBron smashing campaign on this board because LeBron was not winning enough.
> 
> ...


What? So when they lost all those games to end the season, its on Love and not the team?


****ing come on.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

MemphisX said:


> Lead them to the playoffs? The T'Wolves have been a bottom 5 team his entire time there.


And again, why do you think that is? Because he has a terrible team surrounding him. Imagine how much worse the Timberwolves would've been if Love wasn't on their team. 



MemphisX said:


> I think people find and make excuses for Love.


Love being surrounded by a shitty team is a clear and obvious fact, one that people are over looking horribly here. 



MemphisX said:


> He is god awful defensively and puts up stats on terrible teams.


As pointed out before, defense involves defensive rebounding, something Love is very good at, and even taking away that part, he's not as bad as you're making him out to be. And he hasn't just been putting up stats on good teams. He's been outplaying other PF's through out the league on most of the occasions that he faced them. He scored 50+ points against the Thunder, the team that ended up going to the NBA Finals that year. You want to tell me Love only did that because he was on a shitty team? Bullshit. How about the double double record that Love broke? That isn't something you do just because you're on a shitty team, you do it because you're great at what you do.



MemphisX said:


> Also, it ain't like he is a total ray of sunshine in sportmanship either but yet and still people keep uplifting him.


Don't know how Love's sportsmanship has anything to do with it, it was never mentioned at all until you somehow decided it was a good idea to bring it up. I don't know that much about Kevin Love as a person, but from what I've heard he can be arrogant and there have been moments in the NBA were he could be a total dick.



MemphisX said:


> I think it is a bit hypocritical that some of the same people that cheerlead Love are some of the same people that led the LeBron smashing campaign on this board because LeBron was not winning enough.


There's one big problem with this post. Lebron James and Kevin Love are in completely different situations. Lebron James is an extremely rare and special type of talent that we rarely see in the NBA, and was on the best team in the NBA for two straight seasons and ended up blowing it in the last one, failing to make the finals in both ocassions, and then he joined a different team with two other all stars and he puts on a disappointing finals performance and they end up losing. A lot of people failed to give enough credit to the fact that the people Lebron faced are more so the reason as to why he lost, but regardless he had the help and didn't show up when he needed to. 

Kevin Love on the other hand is just a big guy who has great offensive ability and is an incredible rebounder, and has arguably the worst supporting cast out of any of the all stars from last year in the NBA. The second best player on his team was a ****ing rookie point guard. Kevin Love has not been in the situations that Lebron James has been in, he still has yet to get to the playoffs, and even then we've seen Love deliver big time for the Timberwolves when they needed him on numerous occasions. 

So please, don't compare Kevin Love to Lebron, that's a idiotic comparison and you should know that.



MemphisX said:


> Really should not be any excuse for them not to be in the playoffs this season. Compare the pass Kevin Love gets with the criticism Chris Bosh got when he was putting up 24/10.


You mean apart from the fact that Love is going to be out to start the season for 6-8 weeks, and that injuries can occur at any time? What if Brandon Roy's knee's end up giving up on him again? What if AK47 gets injured or if Rubio gets injured again? 

If however no injuries occur and the Timberwolves are perfectly healthy, then yes, they definitely should be able to make the playoffs this season. 



MemphisX said:


> How many streaks of straight shit have the TWolves gone through with Love still being championed?


Again, not Love's fault. Stop putting things on Love that clearly aren't his doing. He's doing all he can and you can see that clearly. But you need a team that can help you. This is a well known fact. Love does not have a good team to help him, hell he doesn't even have a decent team. 

Love is getting attention because right now he's playing at an incredible rate compared to other PF's in the league, it isn't even close. The fact that people are actually using the fact that he hasn't been in the playoffs yet as an excuse to not acknowledge that he is without a doubt the best PF in the NBA atm is not only incredibly stupid but it's also very sad, because we are once again putting people down for something that isn't their fault and apparently it was dumb of me to think that we had gone past that era.



MemphisX said:


> I like when people say the TWolves quit...nah, Kevin Love quit.


So it's Love's fault that they lost all those games, despite the fact that Love had the best performance on his team in all of those games? Great way to end your statement there.


----------



## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

The TWolves have a pretty solid team this year. I guess the upcoming season will be make or break for either argument.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

XxIrvingxX said:


> And again, why do you think that is? Because he has a terrible team surrounding him. Imagine how much worse the Timberwolves would've been if Love wasn't on their team.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just another long list of excuses. I don't remember a single freaking soul on this entire freaking message board saying Zbo was a good defender because he was a good defensive rebounder. This shit just gets hilarious after awhile.

Kevin Love has not played one significant NBA game his entire career. He hasn't even been on a team relevant enough to game plan against. It is totally impossible for anyone to try and compare him to the top PFs. 

Compare the TWolves to some of those shitty Raptor teams Bosh played on though. Bosh still had them always around .500 with zero help. However, you probably think Kevin Love is better than Chris Bosh.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Just another long list of excuses. I don't remember a single freaking soul on this entire freaking message board saying Zbo was a good defender because he was a good defensive rebounder. This shit just gets hilarious after awhile.
> 
> Kevin Love has not played one significant NBA game his entire career. He hasn't even been on a team relevant enough to game plan against. It is totally impossible for anyone to try and compare him to the top PFs.
> 
> Compare the TWolves to some of those shitty Raptor teams Bosh played on though. Bosh still had them always around .500 with zero help. However, you probably think Kevin Love is better than Chris Bosh.


And if you put ZBo on the Wolves in place of Love they're doing something?


Answer the question without trying to squirm out of it please.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

E.H. Munro said:


> Yes, but the part of it that he was there they were 0-7.


The Lakers lost 19 of 21 in 04-05 with a 26 year old Kobe Bryant playing all but two of those games. 

For the record I'm with you and MemphisX for the most part, I want to see Love impact a meaningful game and put up numbers on a good team before I call him the best anything in the league. I just don't put much weight into a small sample size at the end of the season for a team not playing for anything, good or bad. Losing those 7 games doesn't make him a loser to me.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

R-Star said:


> And if you put ZBo on the Wolves in place of Love they're doing something?
> 
> 
> Answer the question without trying to squirm out of it please.


If you put ZBo on the Wolves and they suck, nobody is cheerleading Zbo as a top 10 player in the league. Point blank. Period.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> If you put ZBo on the Wolves and they suck, nobody is cheerleading Zbo as a top 10 player in the league. Point blank. Period.


That's because ZBo isn't as good of a player as Love. 

Kind of the point.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

MemphisX said:


> Just another long list of excuses. I don't remember a single freaking soul on this entire freaking message board saying Zbo was a good defender because he was a good defensive rebounder. This shit just gets hilarious after awhile.


I never claimed Love was a good defender. I was saying that he isn't as bad as you're making him out to be.



MemphisX said:


> Kevin Love has not played one significant NBA game his entire career. He hasn't even been on a team relevant enough to game plan against. It is totally impossible for anyone to try and compare him to the top PFs.


Really? Scoring 50 points against one of the best teams in the NBA isn't significant to you? Or having a 31/31 game? Are you high?? 



MemphisX said:


> Compare the TWolves to some of those shitty Raptor teams Bosh played on though. Bosh still had them always around .500 with zero help. However, you probably think Kevin Love is better than Chris Bosh.


First off the Raptors definitely had a better team than the Timberwolves. Look at the way they played two years ago when Bosh wasn't on the team but Love was and you'll see it for yourself. Second, when it comes to production and stats, Bosh wont be better than Love, but when he's by himself and the one leading the team, Bosh is one of the best PF's in the NBA. But even during his time with Toronto, he was no were close to being as good as Love was during the past two seasons that Love has had.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I never claimed Love was a good defender. I was saying that he isn't as bad as you're making him out to be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Love has not played a significant NBA game. If you don't understand what that means, I can't help you. Saying that Kevin Love is better than PFs that have not only LED teams into the playoffs but carried them to playoff victories while he was winning 25-30 games is just insanity. I don't care how you try and pump it up.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

R-Star said:


> That's because ZBo isn't as good of a player as Love.
> 
> Kind of the point.


Zbo is better than Kevin Love and it really isn't close.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

hobojoe said:


> The Lakers lost 19 of 21 in 04-05 with a 26 year old Kobe Bryant playing all but two of those games.
> 
> For the record I'm with you and MemphisX for the most part, I want to see Love impact a meaningful game and put up numbers on a good team before I call him the best anything in the league. I just don't put much weight into a small sample size at the end of the season for a team not playing for anything, good or bad. Losing those 7 games doesn't make him a loser to me.


I''m not really putting any weight on it. At the end of the day was Al Jefferson a top 5 guy because he was 20/10ing up a storm on a 20 win team? Would anyone have been able to keep a straight face while typing the words "70% of defense is securing the rebound so don't tell me that he's bad defender"?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Zbo is better than Kevin Love and it really isn't close.


Wait what? You can't be serious.


----------



## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Wait what? You can't be serious.


I laughed at that as well. 

Doesn't he realise the reasons he is hating on Love are the ones Zbo used to be tainted with as well?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

a factoid regarding defensive rebounding: Larry Bird generally gathered about 20% of his team's defensive boards while he was on the floor while Kevin McHale usually pulled down high to mid teen %s, the inverse was true of offensive boards with McHale pulling down significantly more than Bird - why? because on defense McHale was the stopper who actually defended someone while Bird played away from the action just as on offense Bird was the initiator and point of attack while McHale generally played away from the ball - my point: the defender trying to defend against the offensive player is the one playing defense, the dude waiting on the weak side pulling down caroms is often being hidden - defensive rebounding is not necessarily evidence of good defense being played it can actually be evidence of the opposite


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

e-monk said:


> a factoid regarding defensive rebounding: Larry Bird generally gathered about 20% of his team's defensive boards while he was on the floor while Kevin McHale usually pulled down high to mid teen %s, the inverse was true of offensive boards with McHale pulling down significantly more than Bird - why? because on defense McHale was the stopper who actually defended someone while Bird played away from the action just as on offense Bird was the initiator and point of attack while McHale generally played away from the ball - my point: the defender trying to defend against the offensive player is the one playing defense, the dude waiting on the weak side pulling down caroms is the one being hidden - ergo defensive rebounding is not necessarily evidence of good defense being played it can actually be evidence of quite the opposite


No one has said Love is a good defender.


That being said, I think his lack of D gets over blown where some on here basically try to paint him as the Steve Nash of power forward.

Hes below average, but he's in no way a terrible defender.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

R-Star said:


> No one has said Love is a good defender.


actually at least one person pointed to his strong defensive rebounding numbers as evidence that he was a good or at least adequate defender




> That being said, I think his lack of D gets over blown where some on here basically try to paint him as the Steve Nash of power forward.
> 
> Hes below average, but he's in no way a terrible defender.


I'd say he's probably average for his position, he's not a great help defender, he's ok positionally but probably doesnt focus much on it


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

E.H. Munro said:


> I''m not really putting any weight on it. At the end of the day was Al Jefferson a top 5 guy because he was 20/10ing up a storm on a 20 win team? Would anyone have been able to keep a straight face while typing the words "70% of defense is securing the rebound so don't tell me that he's bad defender"?


Nope, I agree.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

MemphisX said:


> Love has not played a significant NBA game. If you don't understand what that means, I can't help you. Saying that Kevin Love is better than PFs that have not only LED teams into the playoffs but carried them to playoff victories while he was winning 25-30 games is just insanity. I don't care how you try and pump it up.





MemphisX said:


> Zbo is better than Kevin Love and it really isn't close.


Wow...I mean, there's incredibly stupid posts, and then there's this.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

e-monk said:


> actually at least one person pointed to his strong defensive rebounding numbers as evidence that he was a good or at least adequate defender
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One guy mentioned the rebounding. I think it was just in answer to the people calling him one of the worst defenders in the league though.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

R-Star said:


> Wait what? You can't be serious.




Yes, I am serious.

This is always where the problems comes in with Love. You think I am crazy for saying a player who almost single-handedly led his team to the conference finals is better than a player whose NBA watershed moment was playing on a 32 win pace team. Add to the fact that ZBo always out plays him one on one. 

My question falls back to why do you think he is better than Zach Randolph?

My 2nd question would be do you consider Kevin Love a top 5 player today? If not, why because his stats clearly say that he is a top 5 player.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

MemphisX said:


> This is always where the problems comes in with Love. You think I am crazy for saying a player who almost single-handedly led his team to the conference finals is better than a player whose NBA watershed moment was playing on a 32 win pace team.


Yes, we do think you're crazy. I mean, this is boderline Drizzay territory, that's how stupid it is. You're trying to use something that happened two seasons ago as evidence that Zach Randolph right now is currently better than Kevin Love. That is the most idiotic thing you could possibly do for an argument like this. Randolph is past his prime, he's 31 years old so he's not getting any better. Aldridge at least is still at that point were he's still getting better and nearing his prime, so at least that one is understandable. Last year Randolph wasn't even a starter for his team. Kevin Love on the other hand was the leading scorer and rebounder at his position, was the main reason for many of the wins the Timberwolves had, and was rarely ever the reason for the loses they had. 

And above all of that, lets go ahead and talk about Randolph's performance in the playoffs that year shall we? He was incredible. I won't deny that and I don't think anyone else will either. He was the main reason the Grizzlies upsetted SA and advanced in the playoffs. But here's the thing. How do you think they got there in the first place? Because the Grizzlies had a team, and a very good one. SA had no one that could stop Randolph, it was easy pickings for him.

Now here you are bringing up the Timberwolve's previous records, I got news for you, you're not proving anything. The Timberwolves were not a good team. What part of this are you not understanding?? It should be incredibly simple logic and yet you are continuing to ignore that fact. 

Zach Randolph is not better than Kevin Love. He wasn't better than him last year (Love outplayed Randolph in the one game they had against each other last year) and he won't be better then him this year. Kevin Love became better than him right around the beginning of last years season. I still can't believe you're actually trying to argue that a guy who isn't even the starter on his team anymore is better than Kevin Love, who's already been an all star more times in his career than Zach Randolph.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Andrea Bargnani might enter this discussion if he continues his preseason play.

That would be a fun topic.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Yes, I am serious.
> 
> This is always where the problems comes in with Love. You think I am crazy for saying a player who almost single-handedly led his team to the conference finals is better than a player whose NBA watershed moment was playing on a 32 win pace team. Add to the fact that ZBo always out plays him one on one.
> 
> ...


Quit asking questions without answering the ones asked. I asked if ZBo would have led the Wolves to the playoffs if he replaced Love. Its pretty clear he wouldn't.

Is Love top 5? No. Top 10? I'd argue for it.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

to me the top 5 PF's in the league are according to the criteria

LMA
zach
love 
dirk 
pau

in reality
the best 4 in the league is lebron followed by dirk, after that a few guys who would be centers if they came along at different time(garnett, pau, duncan) and a guy is a 4 playing the 5 so they can stick lebron at the 4 in bosh.

out of the true 4's in the league who among the best love , aldridge zach griffin and bosh ,assuming all are healthy i'd rather have zach than the rest because his game requires less help for him to be impactful. if i were to put love or aldridge or even bosh in his place i strongly doubt they could have taken down the spurs a couple of years ago in the playoffs , their isolation offense is less potent.

in truth its splitting hairs among some very talented but very flawed players. there really isn't that much of a difference in their level of play , mostly whom you find better could be a matter of preference

love is an all time great at rebounding and a very good but not quite title contending 1st or 2nd option on offense and he's not a particularly good defending his man just mediocre and a poor help defender

zach is a great rebounder but not quite the level love is , while being basically a 2nd option level offensive player on a title team , who like love is not particularly good guarding his man and while being a poor help defender.

bosh is pretty good rebounder and a very good scorer who is a good defender on his man as well as a good help defender...but wasn't so great at it when he had to shoulder being his team's 1st option.

since this thread has turned into mostly about Love i'll say this , for someone who avg. 24+ points he really has some improving to do if he is really going to lead his team anywhere.

for a guy who relies so much on a good facilitator . he must be alot more efficient , if he iso'd more and drew double teams that let him pass for easy baskets and garnered more assists it would be different but his role is to be a finisher and on top tier teams finishers tend to be at or above 60% ts without that its unlikely his team will ever be much good. especially when considering they have tended to be a poor defensive team.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Da Grinch said:


> to me the top 5 PF's in the league are according to the criteria
> 
> LMA
> zach
> ...


Well said. I don't think any of the guys (LMA, Love, Zach, Bosh) can be #1 guys who lead their teams anywhere important. If you surround them with a deep quality team that changes things, but even the when you think about it KG was in that situation in his later years in Minny and never really did much. Dirk and Timmy are the only recent guys I can think of who lead their teams to a title, and Duncan doesn't even really count since he's really a 5.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

R-Star said:


> Well said. I don't think any of the guys (LMA, Love, Zach, Bosh) can be #1 guys who lead their teams anywhere important. If you surround them with a deep quality team that changes things, but even the when you think about it KG was in that situation in his later years in Minny and never really did much. Dirk and Timmy are the only recent guys I can think of who lead their teams to a title, and Duncan doesn't even really count since he's really a 5.


you can build a team around anyone , to win a title the guy you build around has to be worth the effort .

KG was an all time great defensively and on the boards, but not that caliber of offensive player, just a really good offensive player and for his teams to be really successful he needed someone to be the man down the stretch. his career would be completely different if he wasn't drafted by minny and went to a team that could get and keep a great scorer next to him.

Dirk could be the man , but he needed dominant defenders and rebounders around him to cover his rather his usually only ok defense and countinually worsening rebounding....but when the mavs supplied that in tyson chandler and shawn marion , he was a better player with them negating his flaws , and they won a title. he always had alot of talent around him , but not the right mix of talent 

its hard for a 4 to be the best player on a title winning team, he has to be physically dominant over other 4's , but too skilled/quick for centers to slide over, if duncan is a 4 he is the best of all time...at center he is maybe top 5 ....maybe, depending on your criteria.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

it's hard for bigs to win regardless, they're too dependent on perimeter players getting them the ball


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

e-monk said:


> it's hard for bigs to win regardless, they're too dependent on perimeter players getting them the ball


everyone but the pg is dependent of getting the ball.

the game inherently gives advantages to the biggest most athletic and the strongest....4's are big but centers are usually bigger so they are kind of caught in between


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Da Grinch said:


> *everyone but the pg is dependent of getting the ball.*
> 
> the game inherently gives advantages to the biggest most athletic and the strongest....4's are big but centers are usually bigger so they are kind of caught in between


I'm sure Lebron would love to disagree with you on that.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Zach Randolph played at a level in the 2011 postseason that Love has never touched. I'm not saying he's better, but there's certainly an argument.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I'm sure Lebron would love to disagree with you on that.


as would Kobe (and tons of other 2s an 3s who dominate the ball), perimeter players get the ball all over the floor relatively early in the clock - bigs have to establish position in a specific location, hold that position and wait (but not for longer than 3 seconds after which they have to give up the position and re-establish it)


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I'm sure Lebron would love to disagree with you on that.


There's always exceptions to the rule, but for the most part the PG is the primary facilitator.


Teams like Miami and LA (prior to Nash) don't have the need for pass first PG's to set the plays for them.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

it's not just the pg role, it's the flexibility of where and how early you can deliver the ball - handing the ball to dwight howard 18' out is not useful unless you're just trying to get it right back from him so you can refresh your dribble


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I'm sure Lebron would love to disagree with you on that.


lebron plays the point quite alot....but even if he didn't he often just brings the ball up when he just intends to shoot...as does kobe to a lesser degree.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Da Grinch said:


> lebron plays the point quite alot....but even if he didn't he often just brings the ball up when he just intends to shoot...as does kobe to a lesser degree.


imagine dwight howard or andrew bynum bringing the ball up the court on a regular basis


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

e-monk said:


> imagine dwight howard or andrew bynum bringing the ball up the court on a regular basis


good big men really dont have trouble getting decent position, or getting the ball for that matter , the issue is more with the 5 second back down rule so they want the ball as close to their comfort areas as possible because they dont have the luxury of backing down very far for position.

you can only fight so hard or for so long before the ref calls a foul on the defender, especially now with the anti-flopping rule in effect.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Luke said:


> Zach Randolph played at a level in the 2011 postseason that Love has never touched. I'm not saying he's better, but there's certainly an argument.


One could definitely argue that the 50 point game Love had against the Thunder was just as impressive, if not more.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

One fifty-point game isn't really comparable to an extended performance in the postseason. However, Randolph's performance that spring also gets overrated, so there's that.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

XxIrvingxX said:


> One could definitely argue that the 50 point game Love had against the Thunder was just as impressive, if not more.


The whole point of a regular season is to get to the playoffs, that's what really matters. One hot shooting night from Love in no way compares to a dominant streak in the postseason.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Luke said:


> The whole point of a regular season is to get to the playoffs, that's what really matters. One hot shooting night from Love in no way compares to a dominant streak in the postseason.


So when Love makes the Playoffs (and he will), you don't expect him to have as dominant type numbers? 

And when he does take his (sometime extraordinary) stats into the postseason, where do you place him?


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Luke said:


> The whole point of a regular season is to get to the playoffs, that's what really matters. One hot shooting night from Love in no way compares to a dominant streak in the postseason.


I'm sorry weren't we just talking about one game? When you compare one game to an entire streak of games, of course there's no comparison. I'm talking about Randolphs best game in the playoffs that year and comparing it when Love's performance against the team that went on to play on the Finals.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

http://www.kfan.com/pages/psn_paulallen.html?article=10659843


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Not a bad bump, I'm curious as to who people would call the top 5 PF in the game right now.

I wouldn't call Lebron a PF but Bosh and KG are IMO...


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

1. Randolph
2. Griffin
3. Aldridge
4. West
5. Smith
6. Horford
7. Lee
8. Milsap
9. Love
10. Ibaka
11. Monroe
12. Davis

Nowitzki and Gasol I have not seen enough of this season to get them a position on this list. 
I consider Duncan and Garnett Cs now. And Anthony a PF. Josh Smith is a PF but so is Horford who is frankly playing out of position. 

I am sure I have missed someone.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*Melo*



hroz said:


> And Anthony a PF.


If you're including Melo in the discussion, how is he not number 1? Moreover, how is he not even in the top 12???


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Oops I thought I had Anthony on there. He is number 1 knock everyone down a spot. Anthony must be the one I missed. I thought about him but must not have added him lol.

I considered whether to include James in there. But I think Shane and Haslem mark the 4s more than James does.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Do people still think I'm stupid for putting Aldridge that high?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

hroz said:


> Oops I thought I had Anthony on there. He is number 1 knock everyone down a spot. Anthony must be the one I missed. I thought about him but must not have added him lol.
> 
> I considered whether to include James in there. But I think Shane and Haslem mark the 4s more than James does.


Using the data from 82games.com, LeBron has played almost twice as much power forward as he has small forward this year.


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