# Vince Carter has demanded a trade



## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1832996


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

Well maybe is the bext option try trade him with Alvin Williams...


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

bye Vince... you gave us all good memories... i still hope this is just rumours...


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

Vince for Marion


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>osman</b>!
> Vince for Marion


God NO !!!

That deal dont help us...

If we trade him is for Young and talented players with pick and some cap space and players for help Bosh


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## WXHOOPS (Jan 15, 2004)

Yeah. It is finally time management woke up and figured out that this team is about building around Chris Bosh. Carter isn't happy so deal him. Bosh is going to be a superstar and it is time to put people around him that will help him develop. Look for the Eddy Curry and Jamal Crawford rumors to start swirling...

However, ten to one that Ray Allen and Vince are swapped.


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

Ding dong the witch is dead!!!!!


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>WXHOOPS</b>!
> 
> 
> However, ten to one that Ray Allen and Vince are swapped.


I doubt The Raptors commented that they will not trade him unless they get someone of equal popularity

And Ray is not exactly the most popular player. A good Chioce is get a good PG and a Good Center with that you can help Bosh a lot.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

well, he certainly helped the franchise move forward, but we're entering a new era in toronto and its good to get new blood flowing through the franchise....the best way to do that, i suppose, is to start at the top...


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Puts our new GM in a tight spot if this is true.

For one, he's already said he wouldn't trade Vince unless he got the right kind of value in return. If Vince has truly demanded a trade, his value just went right out the window. Forget about getting up-to-equal value if the other team knows Vince is putting the heat on our management to trade him.

Also, if Babs can't get enough in return for Vince, he won't trade him. Meaning that we will have the Antonio Davis situation all-over again, where I think VC will be professional enough to play, but won't be up to snuff. He'll be playing waiting to be traded rather than trying to help this team make the playoffs.

I'm not sure whether this rumour is a result of the movement of other players in the league, like Kobe, Tracy, Shaq, etc., getting the better of the writers who just want to pile-on more names to throw into the tumbler and see who comes-out wearing a different uniform. Or maybe this is the reverse, Vince whetting his trade appetite after seeing other players getting good deals (like Twan, his friend, or Tracy, his cousin).


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i'm glad this is vince carter. i've said it before, but if there's one player you don't mind hearing trade demands from, it's vince- simply because there exists the possibility that he doesn't _mean_ them, or that he's just speaking on a reaction.

if we find a good deal for vince, i'm all for moving him. the insurance policy is good, too: if we don't get around to trading him, he'll probably have a change of heart at some point in the future. 

peace


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

one more thing: it's just like vince to issue this kind of a demand one week *after* the draft, isn't it? i mean, the guy just isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. if you're going to force a trade, do it before the draft- otherwise, your team has even less flexibility, and you have less of a chance of being moved.

he may have made the demand earlier, but i wouldn't be surprised if he didn't. i also wouldn't be surprised if vince went through the media _this time_ to shelve the rumours. 

with vc, you just never know. he's an enigma in every way. 

peace


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Carter for Allen straight up.
The Crawford+Curry deal would be sweat.

If he wants out trade for younger cheaper players that have upside.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

well hopefully that is not true but i will suport him and the team no matter what


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## alpngso (May 23, 2003)

Finally...

I want him outta here so bad, I pray almost every night.

This guy only plays a half the season and does not even want to be in T.O.

I hope we trade him for a young, up&coming star.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

hopefully he will continue to do his charity all-star games and continue with all the work that he has done for the city


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

If Vince demanded a trade I'd like to hear it from him, not from a "source"...so until I do, I'll file this one away in the "American Media Wishes" section.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> hopefully he will continue to do his charity all-star games and continue with all the work that he has done for the city


if he does the charity game and is traded the fans will let him hear it.
Like how Camby, Stodadmire, Mcgreedy were greated on thier first visits after being traded.

I really have started to dislike Vince, this past season he did not play with heart everygame, disguised his fear to drive by becoming non selfish and becoming a perimter shooter.

***** about not hiring Dr J, has *****ed about the drafting both Bosh and Hoffa.

If he wants out ship him out.
Gave us some great memerios but he is past his prime and his salery will start to escalate quite a bit now better to deal him for younger/almost 1-1swaps[equal value players] or cheaper players.

Cheaper would be
Crawford and Curry :yes: 
Butler+Grant:yes:   

equal value players
Iverson:| 
Pierce 
Allen


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## rapsfan4life (Apr 10, 2004)

We all must must remember this is just another report. 

Wasn't it a report a few weeks back had the raps in serious discussions with the sixers regarding a swap? (iverson for carter):sour: 

You know how these things are, we heard it from tmac's mouth, we definitly heard it from shaq's mouth as he dissed the whole laker organization. Until we hear it from vince i will be suspicious of any report. Jeezzz.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

lol @ all of you hating on vince when hes the reason why theres still basketball in canada


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

> lol @ all of you hating on vince when hes the reason why theres still basketball in canada


Thats a whole lot of BS :yes:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Its sad VC has demanded a trade but I'ma be happy for the man wherever he goes. He's not getting any younger and he wants to win, is it too much for him to want that. I think toronto fans should appreciate that fact, without him there was no basketball down there.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>McFurious</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats a whole lot of BS :yes:


how? do you understand the whole marketing of the raptors is built around vince most of the merchandise sales are all cuz of vince how many raptor jersey are in the top 20 sellers that don't have carter on the back if vince left the intrest in the raps would drop 110%


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

This is either the end or the beging of basketball in TO, lets face it there are a lot of people in toronto who own season tickets and dont know much about basketball and only know Vince Carter they hear the news and cancel their tickets which would lead to less $ then we already have. 

If VC is traded we can not do it to rebuild, if we rebuild the know-nothing fans will be pissed off and we will be the new Toronto Blue Jays, a good up and coming roster that will take ages to develop. People will constantly think of us as a joke and people will not go to the games except for die hard fans like us.

Besides would it really be so hard just to give Dr J a bull**** job just to keep him happy and hey if he succedes then MLSE looks like a genius and if he dosent then no one would really notice.

Wouldnt it be easier to just see if he can get better (cause there is no way he could get worse according to some of you) and if he dosent then trade him? and if he gets better we could have a really deap team. If VC gets hurt i am all for trading him but i mean if we are not planing to go anywhere with out him lets see how far we can get with him (and a PG) before we trade him

If the trade makes the raptors better then more power to Babcock and his staff but if dosent a big impact and in a good way or else i could see the end of the NBA in canada in the next 10 years.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>alpngso</b>!
> Finally...
> 
> I want him outta here so bad, I pray almost every night.
> ...


yea but if he goes we won't win over 20 games garunteed


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> This is either the end or the beging of basketball in TO, lets face it there are a lot of people in toronto who own season tickets and dont know much about basketball and only know Vince Carter they hear the news and cancel their tickets which would lead to less $ then we already have.
> 
> If VC is traded we can not do it to rebuild, if we rebuild the know-nothing fans will be pissed off and we will be the new Toronto Blue Jays, a good up and coming roster that will take ages to develop. People will constantly think of us as a joke and people will not go to the games except for die hard fans like us.
> ...


truth


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## g_prince_4_lyfe (Sep 10, 2003)

I don't believe this one bit! See, the media will say anything to get ratings. Vince probably said something like "he would welcome a trade" and the media took it the other way. However...

If Vince really did demand a trade, I guess you can't blame the guy. He probably wants a change of scenary. See, we're not living in the days where guys like Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajowon(sp?), David Robinson, and Patrick Ewing would stick to their team until almost the very end. These days, when players experience a few bad seasons, then they want a change of scenary to see if they can be on a better team. McGrady did it, TWICE, so now I guess Vince proabably wants to do the same thing. I sure hope he stays. He's the one who truly put the Raptors on the map as Canada's NBA team. Studamire, Camby, and McGrady couldn't do that. So, for the NON-Carter haters out there, let's hope he stays so that we don't have ANOTHER ex-Raptor to boo.

But IF by any chance we get something very good out of the trade, then I'll accept that!


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

and another thing whats up with all this "build around bosh" talk lets be honest here bosh has potentinal but will he reach it is one question & hes another 2-3 years away from really being a threat (if all goes well) and 2 who says he gonna stay a raptor?


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> 
> 
> God NO !!!
> ...


Marion is a far better defensive player, and also grabs more boards. If it was Vujanic and Marion for Carter, I would do it in second.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>osman</b>!
> 
> 
> Marion is a far better defensive player, and also grabs more boards. If it was Vujanic and Marion for Carter, I would do it in second.


lol @ this marion uncorenated & has a very weak jumper ..glad your not our gm


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Good point, whoever said Bosh is going to want to stay. As a matter of fact it is beginning to look more like Toronto cant hold on to their stars


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

> how? do you understand the whole marketing of the raptors is built around vince most of the merchandise sales are all cuz of vince how many raptor jersey are in the top 20 sellers that don't have carter on the back if vince left the intrest in the raps would drop 110%


Sure, with Vince in the headlines they sell more jerseys but how many Damon Stoudamire jerseys did you see when he was here (Plus they make about million more VC jerseys then compared to any other player). The ACC isn’t selling out games due to the fact ppl want to see Vince Carter (hell he's injured most of the time). We have great fans in Toronto and it's not just one player who there paying to see. The Raptors will more than succeed without Vince... sure he gave us something to hope for but he wont be the reason for the success of basketball in Toronto or in Canada as a fact. It will be the team and the product left on the floor which decides our fate... not Vince. With that I wish Vince luck in the future and looking forward for the Raptors new lineup.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> Good point, whoever said Bosh is going to want to stay. As a matter of fact it is beginning to look more like Toronto cant hold on to their stars


its cuz we make boneheaded moves that send the wrong message to players around the leauge just the other day PTI called toronto a grave yard


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>McFurious</b>!
> 
> 
> Sure, with Vince in the headlines they sell more jerseys but how many Damon Stoudamire jerseys did you see when he was here (Plus they make about million more VC jerseys then compared to any other player). The ACC isn’t selling out games due to the fact ppl want to see Vince Carter (hell he's injured most of the time). We have great fans in Toronto and it's not just one player who there paying to see. The Raptors will more than succeed without Vince... sure he gave us something to hope for but he wont be the reason for the success of basketball in Toronto or in Canada as a fact. It will be the team and the product left on the floor which decides our fate... not Vince. With that I wish Vince luck in the future and looking forward for the Raptors new lineup.


I hope you know that our attendance has droped over the past 2 years now throw that factor in and minus vince carter and what u get ...who can the raptors market jalen? nope not at his age bosh? nope he hasen't steped up yet willams? lol you think raptor fans are be like this forever? I remember ppl said the same thing about the blue jays in the mid 90s and now they struggle to get 20 thousand in a building that holds 70 thousand ppl


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

> I hope you know that our attendance has droped over the past 2 years


We haven’t made the playoffs in two years. 



> who can the raptors market jalen? nope not at his age bosh?nope he hasen't steped up yet willams?


Bosh can easily be marketable.. and is already.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>McFurious</b>!
> 
> 
> We haven’t made the playoffs in two years.
> ...


tell me how many ppl outside toronto you see wearing chris bosh jerseys?...how many TV ads chris bosh is in ..how many mag covers has Chris bosh been on? how many times chris bosh been the main story on sport center?


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>McFurious</b>!
> Bosh can easily be marketable.. and is already.


well what happens if he dosent becomes a superstar but still puts up ok numbers people will want to run him out of town look at VC 22ish ppg is not terrible but everyone assumes that he HAS to be putting up big numbers like T-mac but look at what happened to his team


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

> tell me how many ppl outside toronto you see wearing chris bosh jerseys?


ask me this question in a coulpe of years


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>McFurious</b>!
> 
> 
> ask me this question in a coulpe of years


we ain't talking about a couple years were talking about now cuz if vince leaves the future is now


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

> well what happens if he dosent becomes a superstar but still puts up ok numbers people will want to run him out of town look at VC 22ish ppg is not terrible but everyone assumes that he HAS to be putting up big numbers like T-mac but look at what happened to his team


It's not the fact VC is not producing ppg's and it's not the fact that he has his own shoe, Gatorade, or Vector cereal ads......... it’s the fact he has not stepped up his game and been a LEADER!!!!! This is Vince Carters team the last time I checked, but can you honestly say that Vince is the leader of this team. Rose has taken that title from Vince ever since he stayed in the game played with a broken hand to secure us the win (IMO). We need players who want to win... not who want the spotlight VC is not the caption of the Raptors and never has been (IMO) he is a poster boy who can make the highlight reel plays with a nice jump shot... that is all.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>McFurious</b>!
> 
> 
> It's not the fact VC is not producing ppg's and it's not the fact that he has his own shoe, Gatorade, or Vector cereal ads......... it’s the fact he has not stepped up his game and been a LEADER!!!!! This is Vince Carters team the last time I checked, but can you honestly say that Vince is the leader of this team. Rose has taken that title from Vince ever since he stayed in the game played with a broken hand to secure us the win (IMO). We need players who want to win... not who want the spotlight VC is not the caption of the Raptors and never has been (IMO) he is a poster boy who can make the highlight reel plays with a nice jump shot... that is all.


:laugh: so tell me how many games did jalen single handly steal to win games how many game winning jumpers did jalen hit....tell who gets double & triple teamed and the focus of the other team defense tell me how many times did jalen put the raps on his back...face it your in dinal


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

And you all thought I was being overly dramatic when I said the silence was deafening. Well, I won't say it, but you know what I'm thinkin'.:grinning:


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

I stick by my solution, by a trade with dallas. The oneil saga doesnt look like its going to pan out. And Dallas seem to want to get rid of Finleys contract to make way for Daniels.

Now what does Vince bring to the city of Torronto. He brings

1.) Popularity, and has loyal fans. The guy is loved by Torronto's people because he put the raptors on the basketball map. 

2.) Explosiveness, now this can be argued, but Vince can jam no doubt. People like to see explosive plays. This is another reason why he is so popular and draws ratings.

Now im guessing the raptors would want those things in return from a trade. Steve Nash is a free agent this summer and is a home town hero in Torronto. If theres someone who is loved as much as vince by the Torronto people its Nash. People would buy Nash Raptor jerseys left right and center. Plus they will come to see the guy, hes so marketable in Torronto and not to mention the USA.

The second thing they require is a athletic dunker, who can make the crowd go "oooo...ahhhh" Now that man, imo is michael finley. He is just a master of hitting difficult shots. The guy plays best when he is a focal point in a teams offense. He plays alot smarter too when a team needs his scoring. With Nash and Finley as the new raptors backcourt it would be very exciting to watch.

The PRIMARY focus of this team is to develop Chris Bosh into a superstar. This can NOT happen by throwing a few draft picks together and letting a whole heap of young people play. Theres to many bad habbits to many mistakes, no one learns. Some solid veterans who know the game and know how to utilize a player like bosh will really speed up his development. Just look at chicago, they threw a bunch of young guys together and it did not get them wins, nor increased development speed. They did acquire some vets, but they are much past their prime.

Finleys contract is up in 2-3 years i think, in which they can let him walk,in that time it will be time to resign bosh, or they could re-negotiate. Both vets have many years left of playing IMO. So how is this deal going to work? Well they will also get rid of Alvin Williams horrid contract.

They can trade the 2 straight up
Dallas trades: 
SG Michael Finley (18.6 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 2.9 apg in 38.6 minutes) 
PG Steve Nash (14.5 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 8.8 apg in 33.5 minutes) 

Torronto Trades:
SF Vince Carter (22.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.8 apg in 73 games) 
PG Alvin Williams (8.8 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 4.0 apg in 56 games) 

TRADE ACCEPTED

OR they can pair it up with some others to fill needs of teams. This trade is so flexible, that Tony delk and mo pete can be added. 

OR Fortson and Marshall or Lamond murray can be added, theres a number of ways this can work, and it all depends on what the other team needs. I think the raps might chase Delk or Fortson as well and give up murray or mo-pete.

Either way thats my solution. Both teams would be happy.


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

Let's just wait and see... there's a ton of rumours floating around this off season with almost every star player except Duncan and Garnett... I somehow doubt that most of them are true....


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> I stick by my solution, by a trade with dallas. The oneil saga doesnt look like its going to pan out. And Dallas seem to want to get rid of Finleys contract to make way for Daniels.
> 
> Now what does Vince bring to the city of Torronto. He brings
> ...


how you gonna trade for finley at his age? & nash has signed on with the suns


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

and to say that he has a list of 4-6 teams that he wants to be traded to?? that's just plain silly... he can't opt out like TMac can... he has absolutely no leverage at all... If Vince really wants to be traded, toronto will be smart and keep him around for another season, wait till his trade value jumps back up... and then trade him.


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## KeonBackinTO (May 26, 2003)

I dont think the Raps are gonna trade VC. Babs knew he VC might ask for a trade, but he didn't draft Iggy who could replace him. He obviously has VC as part of his plans and wont trade him unless he gets an amazing deal.

VC will be on the Raps next season i have no doubt about it.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> lol @ this marion uncorenated & has a very weak jumper ..glad your not our gm


Marion has a 46% career shooting percentage, which is better then VInces. What exactly do you think you're going to get for Vince? You're over valuing Vince. Go post your trade proposal in another teams forum..and we'll see how well its recieved.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

Why don't Peddie and the rest of the Raps organization just listen to Vince a lil' more... I mean, as a player, you gotta be happy about the direction of your franchise. If he endorsed Dr. J, then give Dr. J a chance instead of shutting him down publicly like that.
Granted, Vince has been wrong on several occassions, most notably his thoughts on Bosh being not ready... but man, the guy's the icon of your Franchise, the least you can do is make him feel like he's being heard.


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

> Go post your trade proposal in another teams forum..and we'll see how well its recieved.


All fans are extremely bias. They tend to overrate their own players, especially when they are mentioned in trade scenarios, while underrating players on other teams. What a GM thinks a player is worth can be very different than what fans think he is worth(and usually is).


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>osman</b>!
> 
> 
> Marion has a 46% career shooting percentage, which is better then VInces. What exactly do you think you're going to get for Vince? You're over valuing Vince. Go post your trade proposal in another teams forum..and we'll see how well its recieved.


I don't think he's overvaluing Vince here.... Vince is definitely worth much more than Marion... Marion is a borderline all star... maybe 2nd or 3rd option on a team. His high shooting percentage is due to the fact that he doesn't get double teams and doesn't shoot many jumpers (cuz he's not great at it)


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>crimsonice</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think he's overvaluing Vince here.... Vince is definitely worth much more than Marion... Marion is a borderline all star... maybe 2nd or 3rd option on a team. His high shooting percentage is due to the fact that he doesn't get double teams and doesn't shoot many jumpers (cuz he's not great at it)


yup and marion does not have the ability to single handly win a game


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>osman</b>!
> 
> 
> Marion has a 46% career shooting percentage, which is better then VInces. What exactly do you think you're going to get for Vince? You're over valuing Vince. Go post your trade proposal in another teams forum..and we'll see how well its recieved.


1. I don't post trade proposals cuz its foolish to post things that aren't most likly gonna happen

2. I'am not over valuing vince if you be realistic and look at the big picture you would see that theres no fair value for vince right now all the names being thrown around are either at the tail end of there career of avg players with big money who we can't trust to carry the team

3. look at crimsonice reply cuz thats the same thing I was gonna say when I read your reply


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

On a recent draft day poll more than half of Toronto fans responding wanted VC to be traded on draft day.

Chuck Swirsky says his email is evenly split between fans wanting VC out and those wanting him to stay.

Vince Carter is a GUTLESS player. He has no heart and no determination and no desire to dominate the league. He is soft. And basketball fans are sick of it. 

VC fans act like the Raps would not have drafted another player. They think we would be playing with 4 men on the court for the last 5 years.

Well, sometimes it looked like we had 4 men on D the way VC was playing.

Ricky Davis can put up similar numbers to VC when he is the focus of an offense. Doesn't make him a player that we would want.

Winning is what helped attendance for the Raps. Vince winning the slam dunk contest brought in more casual fans and those that are just Vince fans and not ball fans. That is only good for a short term pop in attendance and you can see it falling off as VC's career is falling off.

Who cares if people in other cities wear Carter jerseys? I bet not many people had Hamilton or Billups or Prince jerseys and Detroit now has a title.

The best thing for the franchise is trading VC. He can opt out in 2 years and force us to trade him or re-sign him to a 6 or 7 year contract that will overpay him greatly and use up a huge part of our cap room.

One more injury plagued year and VC's value is ZERO. Who on this board would want to bet their house that VC will be healthy for the full year after a lazy offseason. Why should the Raps bet $50 million on that?

We sucked with him last year. We can't do much worse without him. Better to have the whole pre-season to develop our offense without him than trade him in mid-season after relying on him.

Toronto is a strong basketball city. We will embrace a younger, harder working club that offers promise for the future.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> On a recent draft day poll more than half of Toronto fans responding wanted VC to be traded on draft day.


so what?...the fans ain't the GM the fans have no say in the matter were all just sitting on the sideline watching whats going on






> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> Vince Carter is a GUTLESS player. He has no heart and no determination and no desire to dominate the league.


and you know this how?





> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> Who cares if people in other cities wear Carter jerseys? I bet not many people had Hamilton or Billups or Prince jerseys and Detroit now has a title.


your missing the point the money they generate the better they could improve the team ,build the team better filisties(sp) land a TV deal get more national games etc clevland and lebron james are a prime example of marketing and what it could do for a city and a team








> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> The best thing for the franchise is trading VC. He can opt out in 2 years and force us to trade him or re-sign him to a 6 or 7 year contract that will overpay him greatly and use up a huge part of our cap room.


trade for who..read my last post






> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> One more injury plagued year and VC's value is ZERO. Who on this board would want to bet their house that VC will be healthy for the full year after a lazy offseason. Why should the Raps bet $50 million on that?
> .


how do you know his offseason lazy you there with vince 24/7 ? are you close friend of his or one of his reps please tell us cuz it seems like u know more about vince offseason habbits then we do and how will his trade value go down if he gets hurt if he puts up similar numbers like he did last season there there should be no problemj ust look at penny hardaway his trade value always up and hes always hurt and he carrys a big contract




> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> We sucked with him last year. We can't do much worse without him. Better to have the whole pre-season to develop our offense without him than trade him in mid-season after relying on him.
> 
> .


it wasn't vince fault that the team was bad we had no bench injuries all over the roster mid season trade etc don't point it all the blame on vince he deserves some of the blame but not all of it




> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> 
> Toronto is a strong basketball city. We will embrace a younger, harder working club that offers promise for the future.
> .


oh really?...let me ask you something how much suport do the agos get? how much suport do the blue jays get how much suport do any of our major teams get face it if it ain't the leafs your gonna have a hard time winning over fans in this city














and last I laugh at the way some ppl opinions on vince change with the wind at 1st hes great and everybody loves him but as soon as he does something you all don't like your all ready to throw the book at him


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> 
> We sucked with him last year. We can't do much worse without him. Better to have the whole pre-season to develop our offense without him than trade him in mid-season after relying on him.



We didn't do too bad compared to other teams with just one star... (orlando, boston, philly.. etc etc....)

If we did not have Vince last year, we could have done a lot worse. I think winning double digit games would be difficult for our team. Vince is the only player on the team that can create for others, create for himself and score. He makes all of our other players much better than they really are. (Mo Pete, Marshall, Bosh)

I know Vince needs to improve with his mental aspect of the game... but at least he doesn't lash out on his teamates to the public (Tmac, Pierce), quit on the team (Tmac) or get into trouble (Iverson, Kobe).


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Marion for Vince is a reasonable trade.

Vince is more of a scorer / ball-handler.

Shawn is a true SF. A tremendous rebounder for 6-7, one of the best ballhawks in the NBA, and a very fine defender.

He also missed about 6 games in 4 years. Compared to 6 games every 2 months.

And as a 20ppg scorer over 3 years, you can't call him a 3rd option. He had an off-year behind the arc at 34%, but hit 39% and 38% in the previous 2 seasons.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> I stick by my solution, by a trade with dallas. The oneil saga doesnt look like its going to pan out. And Dallas seem to want to get rid of Finleys contract to make way for Daniels.
> 
> Now what does Vince bring to the city of Torronto. He brings
> ...


1 Nash is signed with PHX
2 If you sign and trade players, they must go alone.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

> how will his trade value go down if he gets hurt if he puts up similar numbers like he did last season there there should be no problemj ust look at penny hardaway his trade value always up and hes always hurt and he carrys a big contract



Penny Hardaways trade value always up?

With that one statement you just lost all credibility that you may have had.

That man has zero trade value. The Knicks were forced to take his ridiculous contract to get Marbury. You think the Knicks could move him now? 

How do I know that VC doesn't have what it takes to dominate the league (heart, fire, determination)? - By watching every game of his career and seeing that he has the talent to be the best perimeter player in the game but has done nothing to improve. By seeing that he can play D in the last minute of a close game but no other time. By watching him lay on the court for 10 minutes every time he gets bumped.

The whole league knows VC is soft. Did anyone ever call Magic, Bird, Malone, Stockton, Isiah, or other great stars soft?

Do people call AI, TMac, Pierce, Nowitzki, Maggette, or other second tier stars soft?

Why just Vince?


And I never said VC was to blame for our losing. Just that keeping him will not help our turnaround.

The Argos are not in the NFL. Toronto would support an NFL team, not a 'minor league' like the CFL.

Baseball is dysfunctional. Without a salary cap teams like the Jays cannot compete. Why go to those games?

Basketball is strong in Toronto. This city produces a lot of great ballers. People love the game. VC is not the franchise. He is just a player. If he died in a car crash this summer we would go on. If we trade him we will go on.

My opinion on VC has been the same for the last 6 months or so. I have given up on him ever reaching his potential or even being a major piece to rebuild around.


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## mavhaz (Nov 17, 2003)

u beat me to it Lucky


> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> how do you know his offseason lazy you there with vince 24/7 ? are you close friend of his or one of his reps please tell us cuz it seems like u know more about vince offseason habbits then we do and how will his trade value go down if he gets hurt if he puts up similar numbers like he did last season there there should be no problemj ust look at penny hardaway his trade value always up and hes always hurt and he carrys a big contract




Penny is a bad example to use , He was nothing more than a throw- in contract in the marbury deal . Penny was a bad contract the Knicks were forced to take if they wanted their man Starbury.

Penny has no trade value on his own, Just like Alvin Williams more than likely will be forced on any team that truly wants Vince . Basically u want Vince u take one of our horrible contract/s 

Penny is worth more as a future expiring contract than he is as a player

U show me a team that values a injury plaqued oversized and overpaid pg who has never really lived up to his potential
Better yet u call the ACC and give that phone # to babs so he can fleece them l


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> Marion for Vince is a reasonable trade.
> 
> Vince is more of a scorer / ball-handler.
> ...


I like Marion, and we might be able to get a young PG as well - Vujancic (sp?) or Barbosa thrown in, since they just signed Nash.
I know Vujancic is staying in Europe for another year.

I think thats as a good of a deal as we can get. They wanted to sign Kobe, but Nash takes that out of the equation so this might be their chance for a big star at the 2/3. 

Joe Johson is a promising young player that they probably would want to hang to, and since he is still on the rookie pay scale his $$ doesnt reflect his trade value, but I'd love to work him in somehow(adding Marshall or basically whoever they want from us)


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I doubt Vince will get traded, the man is just too valuable to the franchise. Lets forget about injury issues and if he has heart or not, this man is a cash cow, there simply is no one that can replace him, maybe cept Kobe, AI and Shaq in bringing in revenues. People will always have their opinions, Babcock in the toronto star has already refuted this demand, and says he and VC are still on the same page. Unlike other so called stars in the league Vince wont hold the organization by its balls if he doesnt get traded. Think about this if for 2 years you knew you had to come to work and be the whipping boy of the whole community, even if you try your best to make your workplace better, wouldnt you have some doubts that the grass could be greener somewhere else. I will always be a Vince fan and I'll stick up for the man, he's not perfect and I know he has his faults, but basically cuz of this man I started watching basketball. If he is traded there goes my interest with the raps and am sure there are many like me.


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> Marion for Vince is a reasonable trade.
> 
> Vince is more of a scorer / ball-handler.
> ...


This past season.. he was definitely the 2nd or 3rd option behind Amare and sometimes Johnson... On a team that won less games than Toronto did... The reason is because he can't create his own shot. Now with Nash coming in, I expect him to be further down the chain.

I think he's in the mold of a SAR... a good player that puts up good numbers... that's about it.... On top of that, he has a max contract. That makes his value worse than it really is. Who wants to be paying Marion 20 Mill at the end of his contract...

If we're gonna trade VC.. let's go all out and rebuild... not trying ot replace him with someone just as old and less talented with the same contract. Meaning, we should target teams like the Bulls, Clippers... who are desperately looking for that one star and have a stockpile of talent...

How about: 
- VC for Gordon/Chandler/Pipen
- VC for Livingston/Magette + fillers
- VC/Alvin for harris/howard/pavel/finley (then dallas can send VC + Walker to LA for Shaq)


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

Carter for Allen, HELL NO!


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

AK47


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spuriousjones</b>!
> AK47


I like AK 47 but his salary is very low (rookie scale) and in checking with RealGm Utah has real low salaries. Googs and Ostertag's contracts are expired, so they would be way under the cap and the salaries wouldn't have to match I don't think. 

Is that right? For instance could we do Kirilenko and Lopez for Carter ( their combined salary is like 1/5th of his) but I think they would still be under the cap even when they got him. 

I'm so used to seeing trades proposed where both teams are over the cap, and that 115% rule comes in, that I don't know what happens if a team is under - does anything go?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

RealGM.com reports that this is only a rumor and that Vince has no intentions of leaving.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>CrookedJ</b>!
> 
> 
> I like AK 47 but his salary is very low (rookie scale) and in checking with RealGm Utah has real low salaries. Googs and Ostertag's contracts are expired, so they would be way under the cap and the salaries wouldn't have to match I don't think.
> ...


teams below the salary cap may take in more salary than they give out up to the cap point.


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spuriousjones</b>!
> 
> 
> teams below the salary cap may take in more salary than they give out up to the cap point.


Thank you, thats what I thought.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I'm glad to see you guys keeping this heated debate clean. That's the way to be.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> I'm glad to see you guys keeping this heated debate clean. That's the way to be.


lol theres no need to get personal its the internet


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

sorry this isn't true. we don't believe DA he needs more people!


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>crimsonice</b>!
> 
> 
> This past season.. he was definitely the 2nd or 3rd option behind Amare and sometimes Johnson... On a team that won less games than Toronto did... The reason is because he can't create his own shot. Now with Nash coming in, I expect him to be further down the chain.
> ...


I would do that deal with the Clippers in a heartbeat. Maggette would replace Vince, and we have our point gaurd of the future. I would evn do Maggette for and unprotected 1st round pick.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>crimsonice</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By Vince making his teammates better, (and being double teamed got him some of those injuries) some fans are all set to hate him if he stays and hate him if he leaves?

How do some fans love a guy's game, but hate him(?) or his game when he wants something every super star wants - HELP?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

For longtime Toronto fans it has become tiresome to hear Vince Carter fans continue to make excuses for every aspect of his game and his life.

I don't think anyone can hate Vince. He's a nice guy with great talent.

But I think everyone is frustrated that Vince will never achieve his potential. 

He isn't a leader. Not in his nature.

He isn't mentally tough. Pouts on the floor and shows his emotions when things go wrong. Just his way.

He isn't physically tough. Vince seems to feel pain more intensely than other people. No other way to explain why he lays on the floor for 5 minutes after seemingly minor contact that he can continue to play with later. Just the way he is wired.

He is a mama's boy who lets his mommy run his life and speak for him publicly.

HIs handling of the media is usually horrible and gets him in lots of trouble.

You can't build a franchise around this type of guy. That is the frustration with VC.

None of this was said in anger or to attack Vince. Just laying out the facts as I see them.

He coud have been a hall of famer. Instead he may only be remembered for his one-time slam dunk championship. Sad.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

The more I read lucky 77's comments the more it just irks me, sure Vince has problems but please tell me another all star that doesnt. Vince played 73 games what else can you ask for, unlike other people do you know how much criticism this man has recieved in his life, if he decides to take time to let his injuries heal am sure fans like you will let him know how soft he is. Please tell me anyother player on the raptors that played more consistent than him, tell me any other player on the raptor that gets the kinda coverage he does. Are you so sure most of the toronto fans are frustrated with vince, last i checked he was the reason why most people even bother watching the raps. If he is traded who's going to care to watch Rose's raptors. Because you dont get into players faces does that make you any less a leader, if am right Duncan is the undisputed leader of the spurs and do you see him yelling at the top of his voice, noooo. He lets his game do the talking. Now on the other hand it seems as if for Vince to make a point, he has to score 50 points, we see how much that has helped T-mac. Compare Vince's game to T-mac, unlike T-mac who can score all the points in the world, Vince has developed a more mature game where he doesnt have to score all the points and still make sure his teammates get better. I am gonna stop now, wow that was mouthful


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

VC has had some bad years. 2? What if we had Grant Hill imagine what the city would be like??


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Even grant hill hasnt gotten this much bashing, wait a min C-Webb has never played a full season but guess what he doesnt get as criticized as VC


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## Mike1155 (Apr 9, 2004)

The key is getting a good return for him. Babcock can wait because he really hasn't had high expectations for the team anyways. He knows getting return is critical for the franchise & can sit & wait for something of his liking to happen.

As far as who the Raps are going to market.....WHO CARES PEOPLE! A GOOD TEAM PUTS PEOPLE IN THE SEATS! This point about how Vince is going to keep all the people in the seats, no matter how good the team is on the court is GARBAGE. Carter is a marketable player but if the team isn't good, those stands are going to get more & more empty no matter who is playing.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike1155</b>!
> 
> As far as who the Raps are going to market.....WHO CARES PEOPLE! A GOOD TEAM PUTS PEOPLE IN THE SEATS!


says who?....didn't see much fans in memphis this year till the playoffs came didn't see much in orlando either when the magic were a playoff team a good team doesn't always put ppl in the seats but a marketable player will


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike1155</b>!
> As far as who the Raps are going to market.....WHO CARES PEOPLE! A GOOD TEAM PUTS PEOPLE IN THE SEATS!


Ask that to the NETS


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Finally some people with sense, i like the memphis and nets examples


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

Toronto is a sports city with great fans....

Ask the Nets.... what about the Devils?

Orlando?.. ya right! 

Memphis? Huge football town and how long have the Grizzles even been there? (but they will sellout)

but fact is all NBA teams are seeing a decrease in their attendance but for the Raptors they are among the teams with high attendance numbers.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

You put that Nets team in Toronto and you sell out virtually every game.

Same with that Grizz team that just won 50 games in Memphis.

I would love to see that Grizz squad with no superstar player in Toronto. They play good basketball.

Why do you 'fans' care about how many tickets we sell anyway. No chance in the world attendance ever falls below 10-12k per game in Toronto even if we have the worst team in the league for two years.

I want to see good basketball. I could care less if I am surrounded by 10k fans or 18k fans.

I think the salary cap in the NBA is based on TV revenue so teams can break even without much attendance. The NFL can play in empty stadiums because their TV deal is so strong and they have a hard cap.

This is a BS argument by people that want VC here at all costs. The NBA is a lot bigger than VC. So are the Raps.


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

> This is a BS argument by people that want VC here at all costs. The NBA is a lot bigger than VC. So are the Raps.


well said...:yes:


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

Remember this 

Maybe if we keep Antawn Jamison instead of Carter maybe right now the Raptors dont exist. What happen to Memphis...

Thanks to Vince we still have the Raptors


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## Mike1155 (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> says who?....didn't see much fans in memphis this year till the playoffs came didn't see much in orlando either when the magic were a playoff team a good team doesn't always put ppl in the seats but a marketable player will


 Why didn't Orlando sell out with McGrady? He is a very marketable player & they weren't selling out the place watching his team finish dead last. A quality team sells more. Thats how you put the asses in the seats.


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

> Maybe if we keep Antawn Jamison instead of Carter maybe right now the Raptors dont exist. What happen to Memphis...


valid point no doubt the VC and Jamison trade helped the Raptors BIG TIME in gaining a fan base (in a hockey town just ask ppl in Vancouver)but that is then and this is now...

but speaking of maybes

Maybe we could have kept Mcgreedy and maybe we would have drafted Lebron James and then maybe we would have had enough cap space to sign Shaq...but that’s just Maybe.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> Marion for Vince is a reasonable trade.
> 
> Vince is more of a scorer / ball-handler.
> ...


I don't think the Suns do it. I wouldn't, I doubt the Raptors do it either. The Suns need the energy and defense Marion gives, not the scoring and sometimes point forward game Vince brings. As you mentioned, the durability of Vince does bring his value down...otherwise it would be fair trade if it fit the teams.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>McFurious</b>!
> 
> 
> valid point no doubt the VC and Jamison trade helped the Raptors BIG TIME in gaining a fan base (in a hockey town just ask ppl in Vancouver)but that is then and this is now...
> ...


Speaking of realistic maybes only The McGrady one

Even with the Money Shaq dont like Toronto (for the Cold weather)


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike1155</b>!
> 
> 
> . A quality team sells more. Thats how you put the asses in the seats.


they would sell more if they had a reason to come to the arena


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## Mike1155 (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> they would sell more if they had a reason to come to the arena


Which is what the quality team gives people.


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> 1 Nash is signed with PHX
> 2 If you sign and trade players, they must go alone.


1.) the post was made before he signed with the suns. 
2.) The deal would have been done before his contract expired. It was a post i made in a previous forum.

ofcourse i wouldnt post that now.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>crimsonice</b>!
> 
> 
> This past season.. he was definitely the 2nd or 3rd option behind Amare and sometimes Johnson... On a team that won less games than Toronto did... The reason is because he can't create his own shot. Now with Nash coming in, I expect him to be further down the chain.
> ...


That's crazy.  

Marion can create his own shot. And bringing in Nash will only bring the best out of Marion because he will finally run fastbreaks in Phoenix again.

Also Shawn Marion isn't making 20M$ anytime.

And please you are judging on wins and losses? You are playing in the East. In the West you would probaby not have 20 wins.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> 
> That's crazy.
> ...


Marion isn't the shot creator that Vince is, few are, but he's going to be absolutely dynamite with Nash. I see him as a superstar role player. I truly can't wait to see the suns play next season along with the raps, cavs, and clippers.

Carter would fit well with the Suns but I think Marion might struggle with Toronto's lack of a true distributor.


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## Red_Bandit (Apr 20, 2003)

L.A. Clippers trades: SF Corey Maggette (20.7 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 3.1 apg in 36.0 minutes) 
SG Marko Jaric (8.5 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 4.8 apg in 30.4 minutes) 
PF Melvin Ely (3.7 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 12.1 minutes) 
L.A. Clippers receives: SF Vince Carter (22.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.8 apg in 38.1 minutes) 
SF Lamond Murray (6.0 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.9 apg in 15.7 minutes) 
Change in team outlook: -4.4 ppg, -3.8 rpg, and -2.7 apg. 

Toronto trades: SF Vince Carter (22.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.8 apg in 38.1 minutes) 
SF Lamond Murray (6.0 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.9 apg in 15.7 minutes) 
Toronto receives: SF Corey Maggette (20.7 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 3.1 apg in 73 games) 
SG Marko Jaric (8.5 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 4.8 apg in 58 games) 
PF Melvin Ely (3.7 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 42 games) 
Change in team outlook: +4.4 ppg, +3.8 rpg, and +2.7 apg. 

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to Toronto being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Toronto had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.


We get our superstar player in Maggette, a great defensive player in Jaric that could play as a starter if Rafer is not up to par and another big body with potential in Ely


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