# Al Jefferson's Trade Value



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Just out of curiosity, what do you think his trade value is so far?


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

it's pretty high. i bet we could get the 4th or 5th pick in the draft with him.

but danny values him more than the rest of the league does and it is VERY unlikely that he gets traded.


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## ZWW (Jan 17, 2004)

Even if we're offered a top 10 for Jefferson, which we won't but hypothetically, I wouldn't take it. 

Jefferson is going to be a stud.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

I don't think it's through the roof right now, but it's decent. He showed flashes of brilliance but he still has issues that need to be worked out. Certainly he can't see the level of Okafor, Gordon, Howard - caliber rookies, but it's still not bad.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

i don't know that i'd trade big al for okafor...emeka is more polished now but i expect al to surpass him in a few years. dwight howard's gonna be a stud though. give him 3 years and he should be a top 10 player in the league.


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## Al Jefferson (Nov 20, 2003)

Delontes Herpes said:


> i don't know that i'd trade big al for okafor...emeka is more polished now but i expect al to surpass him in a few years. dwight howard's gonna be a stud though. give him 3 years and he should be a top 10 player in the league.


Give Howard 3 years or Jefferson ?
I think both Howard and Jefferson will be in the top 10 in years to come.
Gonna be Amare, Al, and Dwight to rule the paint in the future.

AJ


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

I would assume its pretty high, but I'd rather not explore it. You don't get brilliance in the post like Al has the potential for very often and you should hold on to it.


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

I wouldn't trade Big Al for anyone.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Lanteri said:


> I wouldn't trade Big Al for anyone.


I might be looking too much into this, but I'm sure you would trade Al Jefferson for LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh...


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## thekid (Apr 3, 2003)

I don't think you could get the 4th pick for Al Jefferson.


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

Premier said:


> I might be looking too much into this, but I'm sure you would trade Al Jefferson for LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh...


The only one of those guys I would trade Al for is LeBron James.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Lanteri said:


> The only one of those guys I would trade Al for is LeBron James.



chilllllllllllllllax homie...if you say you wouldnt trade al jefferson for dwayne wade i will never read any of ur posts ever again...wade is one of the best players in the nba ALREADY...al has potential...wade IS a star...id trade al and our #18 for wade...and tony allen or delonte if needed...but miami would never even answer the phone if the celtics tried calling for that trade


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Lanteri said:


> The only one of those guys I would trade Al for is LeBron James.


uhh, AJ had a nice rookie season averaging almost 7 points and 5 rebounds, but i'll take d-wade or bosh over him in HEARTBEAT.


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## FatMike58 (May 11, 2005)

id take wade or lebron, no bosh


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

I'm not sold on Wade. His numbers shot way up with Shaq. And Bosh and Jefferson are the same type of player. Bosh is just a little further along than Al. If Al was forced into a starting role like Bosh was he'd play at the same level in due time.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Lanteri said:


> I'm not sold on Wade. His numbers shot way up with Shaq. And Bosh and Jefferson are the same type of player. Bosh is just a little further along than Al. If Al was forced into a starting role like Bosh was he'd play at the same level in due time.



ur not sold on wade but ur sold on al?...lets see wade 24-7-5 al 7-4

without shaaq for 6 games in the playoffs wade regularly put up at least 30 pts upwards of 40 some nights...sure having shaq helps but shaq or no shaq wade is a superstar...u might be the only person in america not sold on him


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

No, his numbers shot way up because he is now a second year player.

How do you argue with 40/8/6?


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

What need do we have for Wade? We have Pierce and Ricky as well as Marcus. Unless you would want to keep Banks on the bench and let Wade start. But why give up Big Al for Wade? Quality big men aren't easy to come by. Al Jefferson has the potential to be a special player. Guards like Wade are easier to come by than a big time post star. At least in my opinion anyways.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Don't start thinking about that trade. It will never happen.

You do not ignore talent using position as your argument. Dwayne Wade is franchise-player talent. He is a legimate first-option player (something we've never had since Larry Bird). 

Guards like Wade come once every ten years. Zach Randolph, Elton Brand, Amare Stoudemire, Chris Bosh, Dwight Howard, etc. can all match Jefferson's impact and productivity (85% will exceed it).


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

good point.

why would you ever take dwyane wade on your roster when you already have marcus banks? he averaged like 5 points and 2 assists last year. wade is a minimal improvement.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Marcus Banks will become a very good player. Wade will become one of the NBA's top five players. I don't see why anyone would object to that trade (although the Heat wouldn't even think twice about rejecting it unless we throw in Pierce and take fodder).


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Delontes Herpes said:


> good point.
> 
> why would you ever take dwyane wade on your roster when you already have marcus banks? he averaged like 5 points and 2 assists last year. wade is a minimal improvement.



aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahha


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

What I'm failing to understand is why everyone is so eager to ship Paul Pierce off. 

He is coming off one of his better seasons in a long time, and seems to have bought into Doc's system for the most part, yet people are willing to write him off over one isolated playoff incident. Yet everyone is willing to give Antoine tons of chances, despite the fact that he's consistently underachieved. 

And Premier if you seriously think Dwayne Wade would have the ability to be the first option on the Celtics then you've got to think about that. In order to acquire Wade the Celtics would have to likely give up Pierce and Big Al. That leaves a pretty lousy supporting cast around Wade. It would leave Wade with Walker, LaFrentz, Ricky, TA, Marcus, Delonte etc. Which is essentially the same type of situation Pierce was stuck with last year, except he did not have Antoine. 

But if you really think Wade would put up 24/6/5 without the supporting cast that he has in Miami, then you'd be in for a rude awakening. Wade was also #2 in the NBA in turnovers at 4.2 per game. That is a ridiculosly high number, especially considering who he had to play with. Shaq, the Jones' Haslem. Imagine that number with a supporting cast of Antoine, Lafrentz Ricky and TA most likely as his fellow starters. IMO if he were to be the first option on the Celtics WITHOUT Pierce, he would not put up anything like 24/6/5. He would go down somewhere inbetween his rookie numbers and this year's numbers. Probably something along the lines of 18/5/4 at best. Even without Shaq Wade had a good supporting cast, with Eddie Jones, who has been the Heat's leading scorer for many years, as well as Alonzo Mourning, Udonis Haslem, and Damon Jones. You can't honestly tell me that's not a solid suporting cast to work with.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Lanteri said:


> And Premier if you seriously think Dwayne Wade would have the ability to be the first option on the Celtics then you've got to think about that. In order to acquire Wade the Celtics would have to likely give up Pierce and Big Al. That leaves a pretty lousy supporting cast around Wade. It would leave Wade with Walker, LaFrentz, Ricky, TA, Marcus, Delonte etc. Which is essentially the same type of situation Pierce was stuck with last year, except he did not have Antoine.
> 
> But if you really think Wade would put up 24/6/5 without the supporting cast that he has in Miami, then you'd be in for a rude awakening. Wade was also #2 in the NBA in turnovers at 4.2 per game. That is a ridiculosly high number, especially considering who he had to play with. Shaq, the Jones' Haslem. Imagine that number with a supporting cast of Antoine, Lafrentz Ricky and TA most likely as his fellow starters. IMO if he were to be the first option on the Celtics WITHOUT Pierce, he would not put up anything like 24/6/5. He would go down somewhere inbetween his rookie numbers and this year's numbers. Probably something along the lines of 18/5/4 at best.



first of all...the original question was would you trade big al for wade...and u said no...we know what it would realistically take to get wade but that wasnt the point of the question.

second of all...r u serious with saying wade has a supporting cast?!...hes got shaq...thats it...a 52 yr old eddie jones...and a pg that does nothing but shoot 3s...and haslem?!...on any other team hed probably coming off the bench but miamis team outside shaq and wade suck so bad that he starts


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> first of all...the original question was would you trade big al for wade...and u said no...we know what it would realistically take to get wade but that wasnt the point of the question.
> 
> second of all...r u serious with saying wade has a supporting cast?!...hes got shaq...thats it...a 52 yr old eddie jones...and a pg that does nothing but shoot 3s...and haslem?!...on any other team hed probably coming off the bench but miamis team outside shaq and wade suck so bad that he starts


Shaq...that's it? Shaq is what made the Heat the #1 seed. Not Dwayne Wade. If Shaq was not on the Heat, they would go from a #1 seed, to a #4 or #5 seed in the east. Look at Dwayne Wade. Sure he put up 24/6/5 on the season. But he averaged FOUR TURNOVERS PER GAME...WITH SHAQ. Shaq attracts all kinds of double teams and frees up guys like Damon Jones so he can make 220 3 pointers, on 43% from behind the arc. Shaq also frees up Dwayne Wade. There is no way that Wade would put up 24 points per game without Shaq over the course of 82 games. 

Look at the series vs. the Wizards, where Shaq didn't play. Wade turned the ball over 6.25 times per game. That is absolutely ridiculous! Sure he put up 31 points per, but if that was against a team better than the Wizards who somehow snuck into the 2nd round he woulda payed for it big time! If he turned it over 6 times per game vs. the Detroit the Heat would get swept. Plain and simple. He is not cut out to be the #1 option.


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## thekid (Apr 3, 2003)

Boston would trade Jefferson for Wade if he put up last year's numbers now no doubt..


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

thekid said:


> Boston would trade Jefferson for Wade if he put up last year's numbers now no doubt..


That goes without a doubt. That's a horribly unrealistic trade however, because the Heat would not give up Wade for Jefferson straight up. The point I'm trying to make is in order to get Wade we'd give up someone like Pierce AND Jefferson to get Wade, and that is not something the Celtics should ever consider doing.


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## thekid (Apr 3, 2003)

Right. Someone mentioned trading Pierce? Why don't you guys trade Antoine? You guys could use a big who shoots from the post rather than a low % with a lot of 3's. Plus the fact he can't make a FT. Maybe it's because I've never liked Antoine but Pierce shot 45%+ this year, something must have clicked.


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

thekid said:


> Right. Someone mentioned trading Pierce? Why don't you guys trade Antoine? You guys could use a big who shoots from the post rather than a low % with a lot of 3's. Plus the fact he can't make a FT. Maybe it's because I've never liked Antoine but Pierce shot 45%+ this year, something must have clicked.


That's what I've been saying all along. However, Walker is a free agent. So we could do a sign and trade, but the only way I'd want the Celtics to consider that is if they definitely have someone lined up that is willing to trade for Walker. If not, then they should just let him walk.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Who said I would give Pierce and Jefferson for Wade and fodder?

I said that is the only realistic deal to get Wade. I didn't say I was in favor of it.


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## UNDISPUTED KING (May 29, 2005)

Premier said:


> Just out of curiosity, what do you think his trade value is so far?


His trade value is probably great but I don't think there is any reason to trade him at this point.


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## GreenFlash17 (May 29, 2005)

UNDISPUTED KING said:


> His trade value is probably great but I don't think there is any reason to trade him at this point.


I agree...


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Well, if Phoenix comes knocking and is offering Amare Stoudemire...


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

But not if Dwayne Wade is offered. I mean, we have Delonte West. That's plenty.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

Wade for Jefferson? That is a tough one. Wade is awesome but he is still a guard. You don't win it all in the NBA without either the very best player or a dominant big man. Even if Jefferson is never as good as Wade he is potentially more valuable. For example, Pierce is a better player than Jermaine O'Neal but JO's are hard to find. It is far easier to pick up pieces like Ron Artest, Stephon Jackson, etc. than it is to get a big man. 

If we traded Pierce for JO we would be a much better team and Indiana would be much worse even though I believe Pierce is a better player.


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## FatMike58 (May 11, 2005)

100% true...good point


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Jefferson hasn't proven that he _will_ become a franchise player. Dwayne Wade certainly has. Al Jefferson will be good and all, but his potential is much lower than Wade's and he hasn't shown that he can be as dominant as Wade is.

Wade is the best player and is far more valuable.


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## FatMike58 (May 11, 2005)

i understand how much more valuable he is RIGHT NOW... and i disagree on the potential, while wade is great and still has an enormous amount of it i still beleive al has way more potential to be a superstar, i was also just pointing out how you need to build your franchise around a dominant big man for it is way easier to win with a bigman bearing the load other than a guard


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Al Jefferson will become a nice Elton Brand type player. His potential on super-stardom is actually quite low, unlike Wade. There is a reason he dropped to #15 (partly because of the previous teams' stupidity). He will become a star, no doubt, but to not trade him because he is a big-man? Star big men are a lot easier to find than superstar guards.


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

Premier said:


> Al Jefferson will become a nice Elton Brand type player. His potential on super-stardom is actually quite low, unlike Wade. There is a reason he dropped to #15 (partly because of the previous teams' stupidity). He will become a star, no doubt, but to not trade him because he is a big-man? Star big men are a lot easier to find than superstar guards.


Um... Star Big Men aren't easier to find. How many star big men are there aruond the league? 

Let's see...

Jermaine O'Neal, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Shaq, Amare Stoudemire, Elton Brand, and maybe Chris Webber. 

That's 8 genuine stars. 

How about Guards? 

Dwayne Wade (according to premier), Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Allen Iverson, Michael Redd, Paul Pierce (depending on how you want to classify him), Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady. There's 8 right there. And that's not even all of them, cause you also have Ray Allen, LeBron James, Steve Nash, Larry Hughes. And so on. Out of all the positions, big men are the hardest to find as far as superstars are concerned...period.

It all depends on how you classify a star. I classify a star big man as someone that will give you 20 and 10. I classify a star guard/forward as someone that will give me 20 points, and a reasonable number of assists, rebounds, or steals. Going by that criteria there's a plethora of guards that could be considered stars, while there's very few big men with that possibility.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Star power forwards and centers:*

*First Tier:
*Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Shaquille O'Neal 

*Second Tier:
*Dirk Nowitzki, Amare Stoudemire

*Third Tier:
*Elton Brand, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Yao Ming

*Forth Tier:
*Zach Randolph, Chris Webber, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace

*Future Stars:
*Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh, Emeka Okafor, Al Jefferson

*Superstar Guards:

*Dwayne Wade, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, and Tracy McGrady


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Lanteri said:


> It all depends on how you classify a star. I classify a star big man as someone that will give you 20 and 10. I classify a star guard/forward as someone that will give me 20 points, and a reasonable number of assists, rebounds, or steals. Going by that criteria there's a plethora of guards that could be considered stars, while there's very few big men with that possibility.


Bill Russell wasn't a star?

 <table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="620"> <tbody><tr class="heading" align="right"><td align="left"><nobr>*YR*</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>*G*</td> <td>*MPG*</td> <td>*FGM*</td> <td>*FGA*</td> <td>*Pct*</td> <td>*FTM*</td> <td>*FTA*</td> <td>*Pct*</td> <td>*3PM*</td> <td>*3PA*</td> <td>*Pct*</td> <td>*Off*</td> <td>*Def*</td> <td>*Tot*</td> <td>*Ast*</td> <td>*Stl*</td> <td>*Blk*</td> <td>*TO*</td> <td>*PF*</td> <td>*Pts*</td> </tr> <tr class="odd" align="right"> <td align="left"><nobr>56-57</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>48</td> <td>35.3</td> <td>5.8</td> <td>13.5</td> <td>.427</td> <td>3.2</td> <td>6.4</td> <td>.492</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>----</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>19.6</td> <td>1.8</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>3.0</td> <td>14.7</td> </tr> <tr class="even" align="right"> <td align="left"><nobr>57-58</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>69</td> <td>38.3</td> <td>6.6</td> <td>15.0</td> <td>.442</td> <td>3.3</td> <td>6.4</td> <td>.519</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>----</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>22.7</td> <td>2.9</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>2.6</td> <td>16.6</td> </tr> <tr class="odd" align="right"> <td align="left"><nobr>58-59</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>70</td> <td>42.6</td> <td>6.5</td> <td>14.2</td> <td>.457</td> <td>3.7</td> <td>6.1</td> <td>.598</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>----</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>23.0</td> <td>3.2</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>2.3</td> <td>16.7</td> </tr> <tr class="even" align="right"> <td align="left"><nobr>59-60</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>74</td> <td>42.5</td> <td>7.5</td> <td>16.1</td> <td>.467</td> <td>3.2</td> <td>5.3</td> <td>.612</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>----</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>24.0</td> <td>3.7</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>2.8</td> <td>18.2</td> </tr> <tr class="odd" align="right"> <td align="left"><nobr>60-61</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>78</td> <td>44.3</td> <td>6.8</td> <td>16.0</td> <td>.426</td> <td>3.3</td> <td>6.0</td> <td>.550</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>----</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>23.9</td> <td>3.4</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>2.0</td> <td>16.9</td> </tr> <tr class="even" align="right"> <td align="left"><nobr>61-62</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>76</td> <td>45.2</td> <td>7.6</td> <td>16.6</td> <td>.457</td> <td>3.8</td> <td>6.3</td> <td>.595</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>----</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>23.6</td> <td>4.5</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>2.7</td> <td>18.9</td> </tr> <tr class="odd" align="right"> <td align="left"><nobr>62-63</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>78</td> <td>44.9</td> <td>6.6</td> <td>15.2</td> <td>.432</td> <td>3.7</td> <td>6.6</td> <td>.555</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>----</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>23.6</td> <td>4.5</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>2.4</td> <td>16.8</td> </tr> <tr class="even" align="right"> <td align="left"><nobr>63-64</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>78</td> <td>44.6</td> <td>6.0</td> <td>13.8</td> <td>.433</td> <td>3.0</td> <td>5.5</td> <td>.550</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>----</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>24.7</td> <td>4.7</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>2.4</td> <td>15.0</td> </tr> <tr class="odd" align="right"> <td align="left"><nobr>64-65</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>78</td> <td>44.4</td> <td>5.5</td> <td>12.6</td> <td>.438</td> <td>3.1</td> <td>5.5</td> <td>.573</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>----</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>24.1</td> <td>5.3</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>2.6</td> <td>14.1</td> </tr> <tr class="even" align="right"> <td align="left"><nobr>65-66</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>78</td> <td>43.4</td> <td>5.0</td> <td>12.1</td> <td>.415</td> <td>2.9</td> <td>5.2</td> <td>.551</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>----</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>22.8</td> <td>4.8</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>2.8</td> <td>12.9</td> </tr> <tr class="odd" align="right"> <td align="left"><nobr>66-67</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>81</td> <td>40.7</td> <td>4.9</td> <td>10.7</td> <td>.454</td> <td>3.5</td> <td>5.8</td> <td>.610</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>----</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>21.0</td> <td>5.8</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>3.2</td> <td>13.3</td> </tr> <tr class="even" align="right"> <td align="left"><nobr>67-68</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>78</td> <td>37.9</td> <td>4.7</td> <td>11.0</td> <td>.425</td> <td>3.2</td> <td>5.9</td> <td>.537</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>----</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>18.6</td> <td>4.6</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>3.1</td> <td>12.5</td> </tr> <tr class="odd" align="right"> <td align="left"><nobr>68-69</nobr></td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>77</td> <td>42.7</td> <td>3.6</td> <td>8.4</td> <td>.433</td> <td>2.6</td> <td>5.0</td> <td>.526</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>----</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>19.3</td> <td>4.9</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.00</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>3.0</td> <td>9.9</td> </tr> <tr class="heading" align="right"> <td colspan="1" align="left">*Totals*</td>  <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>*963*</td> <td>*42.3*</td> <td>*5.9*</td> <td>*13.4*</td> <td>*.440*</td> <td>*3.3*</td> <td>*5.8*</td> <td>*.561*</td> <td>*0.0*</td> <td>*0.0*</td> <td>*----*</td> <td>*0.0*</td> <td>*0.0*</td> <td>*22.5*</td> <td>*4.3*</td> <td>*0.00*</td> <td>*0.00*</td> <td>*0.0*</td> <td>*2.7*</td> <td>*15.1*</td> </tr> <tr class="odd" align="right"> <td colspan="1" align="left">Playoffs</td> <td><spacer type="block" width="1"></td> <td>*165*</td> <td>*45.4*</td> <td>*6.1*</td> <td>*14.2*</td> <td>*.430*</td> <td>*4.0*</td> <td>*6.7*</td> <td>*.603*</td> <td>*0.0*</td> <td>*0.0*</td> <td>*.000*</td> <td>*0.0*</td> <td>*0.0*</td> <td>*24.9*</td> <td>*4.7*</td> <td>*0.00*</td> <td>*0.00*</td> <td>*0.0*</td> <td>*3.2*</td> <td>*16.2*</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

Of course Bill Russell was a star. He got 20 and 10 too, just the other way around :biggrin:. Besides you cannot compare eras. Heck the Celtics have K.C. Jones in the hall of fame and he avearged 7.4 ppg, 4.3 apg, and 3.5 rpg while shooting 38%. Apparently those were outstanding numbers in that day of age. If your going to make comparisons keep it in this era.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

I still cannot believe that you wouldn't trade Jefferson for Wade.


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

Premier said:


> I still cannot believe that you wouldn't trade Jefferson for Wade.


Well. You'll believe it when Al is a 20-10 player in the next few years. In fact write this down:

Al Jefferson will be a 20-10 player.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

<table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td class="bg1" align="left">*STARTERS*</td><td class="bg1" align="right">*M*</td><td class="bg1" align="center">*FG*</td><td class="bg1" align="center">*3FG*</td><td class="bg1" align="center">*FT*</td><td class="bg1" align="righy">*OR*</td><td class="bg1" align="right">*TR*</td><td class="bg1" align="right">*A*</td><td class="bg1" align="right">*TO*</td><td class="bg1" align="right">*STL*</td><td class="bg1" align="right">*BLK*</td><td class="bg1" align="right">*PF*</td><td class="bg1" align="right">*PTS*</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="17" valign="middle"><td align="left">D. Wade, PG</td><td align="right">38</td><td align="center">12-21</td><td align="center">0-0</td><td align="center">12-18</td><td align="righy">2</td><td align="right">7</td><td align="right">2</td><td align="right">2</td><td align="right">0</td><td align="right">1</td><td align="right">5</td><td align="right">36</td></tr></tbody> </table>
Thirty-six points on 12-21 shooting.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

Dwayne Wade for Al Jefferson is an interesting trade. Obviously, Wade is better. But we want to win a championship in Boston. If we make that trade - we perhaps could then trade Wade for Dwight Howard or something - but lets assume that we would have to keep Wade for 8 years.

What would we do then? Wade and Pierce with Davis and Walker would be a ridiculous combo. Almost as good as Eddie Jones, Lamar Odom, Caron Butler and Wade. So we would be a #4 seed forever. Why do you think Miami took on Shaq's 30 million a year contract? If Wade is so great without a big man, why get Shaq's burdensome contract? Wouldn't it be easier to build around Wade? 

If Jefferson becomes a 6-10 260 lb. excellent low post scorer and outside shooter (that his HS coach says that he is) then he could be the next Karl Malone but bigger. A guy like that is rarer. What do Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, JO, Rasheed Wallace all have in common? They perennially make the playoffs, win championships, or win MVP's. What do guys like Pierce, McGrady, Wade, Kobe have in common? They don't go anywhere without a big man.

Jefferson was drafted #15 and Malone was drafted #13. Just because GM's screwed up, you don't just write off his potential. Every one knows this guy is gonna be great. The team isn't marketing him as "The Future" because they are desperate. They know what they have.


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## Al Jefferson (Nov 20, 2003)

SamIam said:


> If Jefferson becomes a 6-10 260 lb. excellent low post scorer and outside shooter (that his HS coach says that he is)


I don't know if you guys saw this.
But someone posted big al's website before last years draft.
Big-Al.net or something like that.
It had some of his HS vids.
It was almost 3-4 mins long.
The majority of the shots he took in that video was Jumpshots.
His jumper is ridiculously smooth.
That's why I'm so high on this kid.
He will be dominate inside.
Then start taking his game outside.

No Weak Al Jefferson

AJ


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

SamIam said:


> Wade and Pierce with Davis and Walker would be a ridiculous combo. Almost as good as Eddie Jones, Lamar Odom, Caron Butler and Wade.




almost as good?...im sorry i would have to disagree...

the wade-wade cancel out obviously

davis is better than caron butler

pierce is MUCH better than eddie jones

and at worst walker-odom cancel out (even though i would give a slight edge to walker)

if you break it down i think the celtics lineup is better than the heats lineup...and also what do you mean we would be a #4 seed forever?...the heat had that lineup for 1 season and they were a #4 seed once...its not like they kept the same lineup for multiple years and never finished higher than 4th


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> almost as good?...im sorry i would have to disagree...
> 
> the wade-wade cancel out obviously
> 
> ...


Good point but you still don't address why they traded for Shaq. They can't do anything for 3 years now and it will get worse after next year when they have to give Wade the max salary. They did it because they know if you have a dominant big man you only need one all star scorer which they had in Wade.

Wade impresses me. So did Penny Hardaway and Kobe. Yet you cannot ignore the fact that Shaq has been to 5 finals and is about to go to #6 with his 3rd team. If you want to credit Wade go ahead. Eddie Jones publicly gushed over the acquisition of Shaq and Shaq has publicly dissed Eddie for years. NBA players know what I am saying to be true. 

Shaq only has to stand on the court and everyone else suddenly becomes better.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

SamIam said:


> Good point but you still don't address why they traded for Shaq. They can't do anything for 3 years now and it will get worse after next year when they have to give Wade the max salary. They did it because they know if you have a dominant big man you only need one all star scorer which they had in Wade.
> 
> Wade impresses me. So did Penny Hardaway and Kobe. Yet you cannot ignore the fact that Shaq has been to 5 finals and is about to go to #6 with his 3rd team. If you want to credit Wade go ahead. Eddie Jones publicly gushed over the acquisition of Shaq and Shaq has publicly dissed Eddie for years. NBA players know what I am saying to be true.
> 
> Shaq only has to stand on the court and everyone else suddenly becomes better.




i agree 100%...BUT...thats saying IF al turns into a dominant bigman ie shaq...thats a big IF...wade has allready proven himself to be a superstar...i think al is gonna be a great player but im saying now wade is 10x better than al....al is still a gamble to some degree...7 pts and 4 rebs a game doesnt prove anything to me...yes i watched the games this yr and he has a great low post game and he has the chance to be elton brand-esqe...but darius miles was supposed to be the next garnett as well...wade is not a gamble and is guaranteed to be a star for the rest of his career


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## FatMike58 (May 11, 2005)

Al Jefferson said:


> I don't know if you guys saw this.
> But someone posted big al's website before last years draft.
> Big-Al.net or something like that.
> It had some of his HS vids.
> ...


i would love to see these videos...where they at?


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

We're not the Heat. *If* an Al Jefferson for Dwayne Wade deal were to go down (even though it doesn't work under the CBA or the rumored new CBA which includes a 125% trade exception), we would be exponetially better both in the present and in the future. *If *that trade were to go down, Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker would be dealt immediatly (in the same deal or in seperate deals) for the star big man you speak of (Pierce and Walker > Odom, Grant, Butler). We would then have a star big man (much like Al Jefferson) and a future superstar in Wade. We would also have a great wing player to go along with Wades' offense in Ricky Davis. Danny Granger could be drafted (who, in my opinion, is a lot like Caron Butler) and LaFrentz would be the other starting big man to strech the defense. That also leaves Banks, Allen, West, Perkins, and Blount as the backups. 

Ratherthan letting me ramble on, let me say that Jefferson could be replaced. Wade is someone who is much harder to replace (only Kobe, McGrady, and LeBron equal his talent)>


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## FatMike58 (May 11, 2005)

Trade marcus banks for caron butler...if he is like granger, then pick up blatche or morris in the draft


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

I wouldn't trade Marcus Banks for Caron Butler. Banks would've been drafted in the top ten in this draft. No thanks.


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## FatMike58 (May 11, 2005)

no chance banks would of been top 20 in this draft plus there no chance of granger even lasting to 14 let alone 18 therefore why not get the same exact player in butler


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

I can't help but crack up at the comparison of Wade to Kobe, T-Mac and LeBron. Sure Wade turns the ball over as much as Kobe and T-Mac but other than that you can't compare a 2nd year player to who got to play with Shaq to guys that have been in the league for years. 

I'm not even going to try and argue against it again, it's just a waste of time. Premier is downright sold that Wade is a superstar already. :sigh: Wade is no better than a Steve Francis, minus the fact that he has no 3 point shot to speak of. Speaking of which I can't remember the last time there's been a superstar guard, that can't shoot the 3 ball...


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Lanteri said:


> I can't help but crack up at the comparison of Wade to Kobe, T-Mac and LeBron. Sure Wade turns the ball over as much as Kobe and T-Mac but other than that you can't compare a 2nd year player to who got to play with Shaq to guys that have been in the league for years.
> 
> I'm not even going to try and argue against it again, it's just a waste of time. Premier is downright sold that Wade is a superstar already. :sigh: Wade is no better than a Steve Francis, minus the fact that he has no 3 point shot to speak of. Speaking of which I can't remember the last time there's been a superstar guard, that can't shoot the 3 ball...



hahaha...who gives a crap if u can shoot the 3 ball when ur as fast and explosive as wade...he doesnt need to shoot the 3...why stand out 28 feet from the basket and jack up shots when u can blow by everyone on the court and get straight to the rim...it actually shows how great he is when he can score 24 ppg without any 3s...thats the most ridiculous arguement ever...wade isnt a spuerstar cuz he cant shoot a 3...lmao...hes smart as hell for not shooting 3s


o btw good arguement as well that u cant compare wade to lebron cuz wades only a 2nd year player...wait a minute...how long has lebron played??...and o yea u cant compare wade to kobe cuz wade got to play with shaq...wait a minute...didnt kobe get to play with someone like that??


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> hahaha...who gives a crap if u can shoot the 3 ball when ur as fast and explosive as wade...he doesnt need to shoot the 3...why stand out 28 feet from the basket and jack up shots when u can blow by everyone on the court and get straight to the rim...it actually shows how great he is when he can score 24 ppg without any 3s...thats the most ridiculous arguement ever...wade isnt a spuerstar cuz he cant shoot a 3...lmao...hes smart as hell for not shooting 3s
> 
> 
> o btw good arguement as well that u cant compare wade to lebron cuz wades only a 2nd year player...wait a minute...how long has lebron played??...and o yea u cant compare wade to kobe cuz wade got to play with shaq...wait a minute...didnt kobe get to play with someone like that??


Man whatever. You are completely missing the point. Speed alone will not get you very far in the league unless you can develop a good outside shot. Wade is the player he is because of Shaq PERIOD. Absolutely unacceptable. You should know better. Dwayne Wade isn't a superstar. Dwayne Wade is just another player that thrives with Shaq running the show. As soon as Shaq goes down with an injury and/or hangs it up, you will see a signifciant decrease in Wade's scoring ability and or "superstar" status. 

And you cannot compare Wade to Kobe or T-Mac they are both vets. You cant compare a 2nd year player to 2 8 year players that have had time to establish themselves as stars. Sure compare him to LeBron James all you want. LeBron James is twice the player that Dwayne Wade will ever be. Who did LeBron James get to play with? A 7' center with a bum foot in Zydrunas Ilgauskas. An underachieving forward in Drew Gooden and a bunch of scrubs that wouldn't see starters minutes anywhere else in the league. 

Wade played with Shaq, Eddie Jones etc. You know, guys that are actually decent. So let's see compared to a fellow 2nd year player, he aint anything. Compared to Kobe and T-Mac, he can't even touch either of them. Kobe and T-Mac are both superior to Dwayne Wade in every facet of their game. Dwayne Wade is no more of a superstar than Steve Francis. And we certainly don't see any Celtics fans drooling over Stevie Franchise now do we? Sure let's trade a guy like Big Al who could be a very good post player for someone like Dwayne Wade. Yeah, real bright. 

You will see. Once Wade gets a chance to play on his own he will not be the "superstar" that everyone makes him out to be. Teams can and will adjust to his speed and cut off his path to the basket. And until he develops a consistent outside shot, he will not reach that next level. When he doesn't have Shaq to bail him out and free up his lanes, that is when the true Dwayne Wade will show.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Lanteri said:


> Man whatever. You are completely missing the point. Speed alone will not get you very far in the league unless you can develop a good outside shot. Wade is the player he is because of Shaq PERIOD. Absolutely unacceptable. You should know better.Dwayne Wade isn't a superstar. Dwayne Wade is just another player that thrives with Shaq running the show. As soon as Shaq goes down with an injury and/or hangs it up, you will see a signifciant decrease in Wade's scoring ability and or "superstar" status.
> 
> And you cannot compare Wade to Kobe or T-Mac they are both vets. You cant compare a 2nd year player to 2 8 year players that have had time to establish themselves as stars. Sure compare him to LeBron James all you want. LeBron James is twice the player that Dwayne Wade will ever be. Who did LeBron James get to play with? A 7' center with a bum foot in Zydrunas Ilgauskas. An underachieving forward in Drew Gooden and a bunch of scrubs that wouldn't see starters minutes anywhere else in the league.
> 
> ...


I also think his opinion is a little far-fetched, but let's try to keep a level of civility here in this forum as in no personal attacks. Thank you.

- Premier


Quote edit. -aqua.

sorry i knew it would be edited but i had to come back to what he said to me


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

I am absolutely shocked that a discussion of dealing Wade for Jefferson has lasted this long. Do you deal Wade for Jefferson, YES! There should be no discussion. I think its ridiculous that we've having this discussion over a big man who can't even defend. I know we all think that he's going to learn defense, but what if he never figures it out? You don't know. Wade is/is going to be a superstar in the league for years. Jefferson might be a guy who can only play on one end of the floor.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

agoo101284 said:


> I am absolutely shocked that a discussion of dealing Wade for Jefferson has lasted this long. Do you deal Wade for Jefferson, YES! There should be no discussion. I think its ridiculous that we've having this discussion over a big man who can't even defend. I know we all think that he's going to learn defense, but what if he never figures it out? You don't know. Wade is/is going to be a superstar in the league for years. Jefferson might be a guy who can only play on one end of the floor.




my views exactly...but the only reason the discussion has lasted this long is there is one person who fails to see this


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> my views exactly...but the only reason the discussion has lasted this long is there is one person who fails to see this


Or maybe it's a couple people failing to tap into reality. It would not be possible to trade Al Jefferson for Dwayne Wade straight up. Therefore it's not even logical to consider it. In order to move Jefferson for Wade you'd have to give up Pierce. Which IMO is not an option. When did I say I wouldn't give up Wade for Jefferson straight up? I'm pretty sure I said a few pages back that I would give up Jefferson for Wade, with no other players involved, but like I said, that cannot happen, therefore it would be a horrible trade to give up a perennial all-star in Pierce, and a guy that has all-star potential in Jefferson. 

If Wade continues at his high level of play over the course of several years, like Kobe or T-Mac, or even Francis who I think he is most comparable to, then I will admit I'm wrong. But until that happens I stand by what I said.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Lanteri said:


> Or maybe it's a couple people failing to tap into reality. It would not be possible to trade Al Jefferson for Dwayne Wade straight up. Therefore it's not even logical to consider it. In order to move Jefferson for Wade you'd have to give up Pierce. Which IMO is not an option. *When did I say I wouldn't give up Wade for Jefferson straight up? I'm pretty sure I said a few pages back that I would give up Jefferson for Wade, with no other players involved*, but like I said, that cannot happen, therefore it would be a horrible trade to give up a perennial all-star in Pierce, and a guy that has all-star potential in Jefferson.
> 
> If Wade continues at his high level of play over the course of several years, like Kobe or T-Mac, or even Francis who I think he is most comparable to, then I will admit I'm wrong. But until that happens I stand by what I said.




in response to "i think you would trade al for lebron, wade or bosh", you said




Lanteri said:


> The only one of those guys I would trade Al for is LeBron James.



then you followed with 




Lanteri said:


> What need do we have for Wade? We have Pierce and Ricky as well as Marcus.



and




Lanteri said:


> I'm not sold on Wade. His numbers shot way up with Shaq. And Bosh and Jefferson are the same type of player. Bosh is just a little further along than Al. If Al was forced into a starting role like Bosh was he'd play at the same level in due time.



i cant believe im even wasteing my time arguing about this


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

I would, absolutely give up Big Al AND Pierce for LeBron James. You can't argue with a 2nd year player that puts up 27/7/7 on a lousy team. 

And yeah, I'm not sold on Wade. I want to see him perform at the level he did this year without Shaq.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Lanteri said:


> Or maybe it's a couple people failing to tap into reality. It would not be possible to trade Al Jefferson for Dwayne Wade straight up. Therefore it's not even logical to consider it. In order to move Jefferson for Wade you'd have to give up Pierce. Which IMO is not an option. When did I say I wouldn't give up Wade for Jefferson straight up? I'm pretty sure I said a few pages back that I would give up Jefferson for Wade, with no other players involved, but like I said, that cannot happen, therefore it would be a horrible trade to give up a perennial all-star in Pierce, and a guy that has all-star potential in Jefferson.
> 
> If Wade continues at his high level of play over the course of several years, like Kobe or T-Mac, or even Francis who I think he is most comparable to, then I will admit I'm wrong. But until that happens I stand by what I said.


You'd rather have Paul Pierce than Dwayne Wade right now? I think you might be making that argument on your own there as well. Have you been watching Celtics games? How about Heat games?


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Lanteri said:


> I would, absolutely give up Big Al AND Pierce for LeBron James. You can't argue with a 2nd year player that puts up 27/7/7 on a lousy team.
> 
> And yeah, I'm not sold on Wade. I want to see him perform at the level he did this year without Shaq.




OMG since when does puttin up big numbers on a lousy team make u better than puttin up big numbers on a championship team?!?!


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

agoo101284 said:


> You'd rather have Paul Pierce than Dwayne Wade right now? I think you might be making that argument on your own there as well. Have you been watching Celtics games? How about Heat games?


I'd rather have a proven 8 year veteran, than a 2nd year player, yes. 

And AW#1. It isn't about great numbers on a crappy team. It's the fact that he nearly lead that crappy team to a playoff berth, while SIGNIFICANTLY improving his game. LeBron stepped his game up from 21/6/5 in his rookie season, shooting 41% and 29% from 3, to 27/7/7 this year, shooting 47% and 35% from 3. A MAJOR improvement. He put those numbers up being the ONLY legitimate option on the Cavaliers. Wade was certainly NOT the ONLY legitimate option on the Heat. Does Shaq ring any bells?


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

How do you know that Wade wouldn't match LeBron's numbers if Shaquille O'Neal wasn't on the team. Let me remind you that Zydurnas Ilgauskas is still a very good player. Sure he is no Shaq, but to not include Dwayne Wade into Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, or LeBron James' level is just plain ludicrous. Next you'll tell me that Pierce is better than Wade.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Lanteri said:


> I'd rather have a proven 8 year veteran, than a 2nd year player, yes.


Even if the second year player is better?


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

Premier said:


> Next you'll tell me that Pierce is better than Wade.


Pierce is better than Wade. :clown: (Because, you know everything.)


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## Joker (Aug 7, 2002)

Lanteri you crack me up... You're smoking some good **** while posting.

You wanna see Wade perform without shaq?
How about single handedly sweeping the Wizards (Arenas/Hughes/Jamison)
and the Nets (Kidd/Vince/Jefferson)?

How about Shaq not even playing in either game in Washington when Wade won? How about averaging 31ppg against the detroit defense?

I can guarantee you're not watching the Miami games... cause if you are then you should stop smoking. Not wanting to trade Jefferson for Wade is your personal opinion (good thing you're not a GM). Also, Wade does not only rely on speed... if you had watched yesterday's game you would have noticed that the majority of his points came outside the paint. and he shot 60% from the field. He developed the jumper over the course of the season... wait for the offseason and he'll come back with a 3 pointer. i can bet on that.

one last thing:
Wade is the only player in the history of the NBA to average
25ppg, 6rpg, 8apg, and 50% fg% in two straight playoff series.

Jordan, Oscar, Magic, and 3 more players did it in their careers, but never in 2 consecutive series.... and a reminder, Wade is only in a sophomore. I'm not saying he's better than any of them.... i can't even compare him to them, not for another 2-3 years, but he's not just "quick".


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## HEATFREAK (May 21, 2005)

if you trade Al for Wade you dont have to put him as a SG like Paul, 

PG Dwyane Wade
SG Paul Pierce

knowing you you would start Delonte West :clap: 

Wade will be better than AL when he is 45, he was just as good as him in his first year of College 

It is alright to maturely discuss this issue with a fellow poster, but attacking him will not be tolerated on this forum.

- Premier


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

SamIam said:


> Good point but you still don't address why they traded for Shaq.


Because he's the most dominating player in all of basketball? Has been for the past 5 years? Will be for the rest of his career?

I would trade everything the Celtics have for Shaq. Just because the Heat didn't build around Wade alone, and got the best player in basketball (maybe not talent-wise, but he's the best) for a ridiculous low price (Butler, Odom and Grant), doesn't mean that Wade is a bad player/non-superstar caliber player.

I would give up any of our players for Wade (not all like Shaq). Wade IS one of the top 4 *superstar* guards.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

Wade> Lebron now. 
Wade = winner. 
Lebron = 2 consecutive seasons his team has choked when it had playoff berth nearly wrapped up.

I will stand by not trading Jefferson for Wade. Wade is clearly better than Jefferson now. Wade is clearly better than Amare was in his rookie year yet I wouldn't trade Amare for Wade right now. 

I've been waiting 16 years for a talented big man to show up in Boston. I am not going to trade that away for a great guard even if Wade could be the best guard in the league right now. 

Wade and 16 more years of no good big man = 16 years without #17.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

SamIam said:


> Wade> Lebron now.
> Wade = winner.
> Lebron = 2 consecutive seasons his team has choked when it had playoff berth nearly wrapped up.


LeBron James has taken a team that won 17 games before his arrival to 42 victories. A 25 victory improvement in the middle of some severe roster chaos (Davis & Miles shipped out, Boozer defection, Gooden & Verajão added) is AOK in my book. Would that Big Al could say the same. Finding a decent power forward isn't hard, finding a franchise player is. LBJ, barring injury, is a Hall of Famer. Big Al may be, but it's hard to say.



SamIam said:


> I will stand by not trading Jefferson for Wade. Wade is clearly better than Jefferson now. Wade is clearly better than Amare was in his rookie year yet I wouldn't trade Amare for Wade right now.


There is a mammoth difference here, though. Amare was clearly an out of this universe athlete when he arrived in the NBA. Big Al isn't even in the same galaxy as Amare. He had more skills when he arrived, but he absolutely lacked the extra athleticism that Wade and Amare have. If you ever could get Wade for Big Al, you make the trade before Riley comes to his senses and then find a big man to throw in around him.



SamIam said:


> I've been waiting 16 years for a talented big man to show up in Boston. I am not going to trade that away for a great guard even if Wade could be the best guard in the league right now.
> 
> Wade and 16 more years of no good big man = 16 years without #17.


Michael Jordan & Scottie Pippen say hi.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> Michael Jordan & Scottie Pippen say hi.



:rotf:


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## Al Jefferson (Nov 20, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> Michael Jordan & Scottie Pippen say hi.


Michael and Scottie didn't win those rings alone.
Big Dennis Rodman was a big piece of the puzzle too.
I would call him a awesome big man.

AJ


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

ehmunro said:


> LeBron James has taken a team that won 17 games before his arrival to 42 victories. A 25 victory improvement in the middle of some severe roster chaos (Davis & Miles shipped out, Boozer defection, Gooden & Verajão added) is AOK in my book. Would that Big Al could say the same. Finding a decent power forward isn't hard, finding a franchise player is. LBJ, barring injury, is a Hall of Famer. Big Al may be, but it's hard to say.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you think Wade is the equal of Jordan? No personal attacks will be tolerated. Wade is good but Jordan not only ate every good defender alive (like Tayshaun types) who tried to guard him, he also guarded the other teams star and more often than not shut them down whenever he needed to. Leave Jordan out of the equation because there has never been anybody with that great a physical advantage over the rest of the league. Even Shaq doesn't have that much advantage. 

Al Jefferson may not be Amare but lets remember that Amare is benifitting greatly from the league MVP. We don't know how good Al Jefferson can be but we know the guy can score at will. He is only going to get better - a lot better. What he lacks in speed and jumping he may make up for with strenght, shooting skill and phenomenal touch. He may have the best hands of any big man in the league. As a 22 year old rookie, Kevin McHale was 5th on the depth chart for big men behind Parish, Robe, Maxwell and Bird. His stats were not that good. I remember wondering why everyone thought he was so special because he was slow, couldn't jump, took weak fadeaway shots etc. In 1987 he was team and league MVP in my opinion until he broke his foot.

Lebron is a superior player. However, the Cavaliers were on the verge of being a playoff team before Lebron, but Big Z got hurt and the team imploded. Big Z's return had a lot to do with their success as did the emergence of Boozer the year before. If a guy lacks the necessary will to get his team into the playoffs - I don't care what his statistics say. He is young and supremely talented and I would not be surprised if he becomes the greatest player since Jordan. However, he has a lot to prove. Lebron has been annointed king but he hasn't earned that title yet. If he doesn't break the pattern of choking at the end of seasons he never will.

Lebron is an exception - he was ready to star at age 18. Some guys mature that early but most do not. I don't think Al Jefferson, Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal should be second guessed because they didn't have dominant rookie years out of high school.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Al Jefferson said:


> Michael and Scottie didn't win those rings alone.
> Big Dennis Rodman was a big piece of the puzzle too.
> I would call him a awesome big man.
> 
> AJ


Funny, I'd call him a 6'8" rebounder & defender. It's not hard to find 4s with those specific skills, even if they aren't as insane as Dennis. And Dennis was only there for the last three titles, for the first three the "talented big man" was the extremely pedestrian Horace Grant.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

SamIam said:


> So you think Wade is the equal of Jordan? Are you on crack? Wade is good but Jordan not only ate every good defender alive (like Tayshaun types) who tried to guard him, he also guarded the other teams star and more often than not shut them down whenever he needed to. Leave Jordan out of the equation because there has never been anybody with that great a physical advantage over the rest of the league. Even Shaq doesn't have that much advantage.


Huge leap there, Sparky. What won those titles for Chicago was the right coach with the right system for the personnel on hand at the right time. No triangle and Jordan probably isn't the GOAT. Also, Wade & Jordan play different positions, Wade's a one guard, a _huge_ advantage. 



SamIam said:


> Al Jefferson may not be Amare but lets remember that Amare is benifitting greatly from the league MVP.


Tony Parker might not be Steve Nash, but let's not forget that Nash is benefitting from the presence of the most ferocious 6'10" center since Hakeem Olajuwon. Without Amare Nash doesn't get _any_ votes in the MVP race. Period.



SamIam said:


> We don't know how good Al Jefferson can be but we know the guy can score at will. He is only going to get better - a lot better. What he lacks in speed and jumping he may make up for with strenght, shooting skill and phenomenal touch.


Al Jefferson will _never_ be half the athlete that Amare is. That's just the reality. Sorry. As for scoring at will? He doesn't do it now. Maybe one day he might have that ability, but it's not a skill he has, no matter how much you claim it.



SamIam said:


> He may have the best hands of any big man in the league. As a 22 year old rookie, Kevin McHale was 5th on the depth chart for big men behind Parish, Robe, Maxwell and Bird. His stats were not that good. I remember wondering why everyone thought he was so special because he was slow, couldn't jump, took weak fadeaway shots etc. In 1987 he was team and league MVP in my opinion until he broke his foot.


First, it was Robey that sunk behind McHale on the depth chart (really, look it up). To the extent that Robey was dumped for DJ because the team thought him superfluous. If that's all you remember about McHale as a rookie, you need a memory course. Even as a rookie McHale had a great low post game and scored in limited time (10 p/g in about 20 m/g). He blocked shots, played tough defense, and wasn't at all slow (that was the post '87 McHale).



SamIam said:


> Lebron is a superior player. However, the Cavaliers were on the verge of being a playoff team before Lebron,


17-65 is being on the verge of making the playoffs? Were they planning on expanding the postseason to 28 teams or something?



SamIam said:


> but Big Z got hurt and the team imploded. Big Z's return had a lot to do with their success as did the emergence of Boozer the year before.


On that 17-65 team Zydrunas played 81 games and averaged 30 m/g, 17 p/g and 7.5 r/g, while Boozer put up 10/7.5 numbers in 81 games (in 25 m/g). The two combined for 31 p/g and 18 r/g the next season. So, the Cav's improvement, despite losing Davis' 21 p/g, wasn't due to the play of Lebron, but the marginal improvement of Boozer. Hey, how did the Booze do last year away from LeBron? Oh yeah, not as well. And how about last year? Gooden seemed to play better with Bron Bron that he did at any other stop along the road, yeah, that has nothing to do with it. I's just coincidental that all these guys get better with LeBron and stop being quite so good without him. 



SamIam said:


> Lebron is an exception - he was ready to star at age 18. Some guys mature that early but most do not. I don't think Al Jefferson, Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal should be second guessed because they didn't have dominant rookie years out of high school.


Two of those four guys had pretty good rookie seasons, a third was stuck behind Rasheed Wallace. The last, despite playing behind mediocrities, couldn't play more minutes, _because he wasn't athletic enough to play more minutes_. Excellent value for the draft position? Yes. Franchise player? No.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

Some good info here. 

But when you say Al wasn't "athletic" enough to get more minutes, that is a laugher. First off, since when is athleticism a prerequisite to getting PT? He didn't get minutes because of his poor defense.

No, he doesn't score at will. But he's very good in the post...much better than Walker or any other F-C we have.

Franchise player? Maybe, maybe not. Would I trade him for Wade or LeBron? Probably. But I think the kid is a future All-Star. Not bad for a 15 pick.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Truth34 said:


> Some good info here.
> 
> But when you say Al wasn't "athletic" enough to get more minutes, that is a laugher. First off, since when is athleticism a prerequisite to getting PT? He didn't get minutes because of his poor defense.


If you saw him on those occasions that he played extended minutes he was sucking wind badly at the end. He simply lacks that extra burst. Great skills for a 19 year old, but he has a ways to go yet.




Truth34 said:


> No, he doesn't score at will. But he's very good in the post...much better than Walker or any other F-C we have.
> 
> Franchise player? Maybe, maybe not. Would I trade him for Wade or LeBron? Probably. But I think the kid is a future All-Star. Not bad for a 15 pick.


That much I would have agreed with. I just found the people that wouldn't consider trading AJ for Wade of LBJ because AJ was better to be funny. AJ's good, but not _that good_.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Am I the only one who thinks that Al is athletic for his position? I mean, he's not going to give Tony Allen, Marcus Banks, or Ricky Davis a run (or leap) for their money, but he does pretty well I'd say. He's not Amare Stoudamire, but he can get up and down the floor pretty well and he can jump some too.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

He'll get better with a lot of body work. But he won't ever hit the Garnett level, much less Amare. He's a bigger Elton Brand, great value for the 15th pick. But he won't ever be Amare, and that's not an insult. The Al fans that object to that are no different than the 'Melo fans that get riled up when you say "He's good, but he's no LBJ".


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

Al Jefferson age19/20 Rookie stats:
14 min/g, 6.7 ppg, 53% FG%, 4.4 reb/g, 0.8 blocks

McHale age 22/23 Rookie stats:
20 min/g, 10 ppg, 53% FG%, 4.4 reb/g, 1.8 blocks

Perhaps you should go back to rooting for Cleveland and Miami. Personally I will happily root for Al Jefferson.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

SamIam said:


> Al Jefferson age19/20 Rookie stats:
> 14 min/g, 6.7 ppg, 53% FG%, 4.4 reb/g, 0.8 blocks
> 
> McHale age 22/23 Rookie stats:
> ...



Darius Miles age 19 Rookie Stats
26 min/g, 9.4 ppg, 50.5% FG%, 5.9 reb/g, 1.54 blocks

and miles is by all intensive purposes...GARBAGE...you cant compare jefferson to mchale by the similar rookie numbers...miles hasnt improved since his rookie year how do you know al wont be like him?


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> Darius Miles age 19 Rookie Stats
> 26 min/g, 9.4 ppg, 50.5% FG%, 5.9 reb/g, 1.54 blocks
> 
> and miles is by all intensive purposes...GARBAGE...you cant compare jefferson to mchale by the similar rookie numbers...miles hasnt improved since his rookie year how do you know al wont be like him?


WOW. You cant compare Darius Miles to Al Jefferson. The guys play two totally different positions. Jefferson to McHale is a valid comparison beecause they both play the same position. Jefferson to Miles is not a valid comparison. Give me a break.

Semi OT: If Walker isn't resigned does that you mean you follow him to whatever team he goes? :biggrin:

edit: And when you say by all intensive purposes, I think you mean for all intents of purpose.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> Darius Miles age 19 Rookie Stats
> 26 min/g, 9.4 ppg, 50.5% FG%, 5.9 reb/g, 1.54 blocks
> 
> and miles is by all intensive purposes...GARBAGE...you cant compare jefferson to mchale by the similar rookie numbers...miles hasnt improved since his rookie year how do you know al wont be like him?


No you can't just look at stats. I watch Al J play and I know what I am seeing. If you can't accept that this guy is a stud and should have been top 3-5 pick in draft this year at a minimum then that is your problem. If you think a 6-10 270 lb. guy with the best hands I have ever seen on the Celtics and a great array of low post moves and a sweet midrange jumper is equivalent to Darius Miles then you just don't watch enough basketball.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Lanteri said:


> WOW. You cant compare Darius Miles to Al Jefferson. The guys play two totally different positions. Jefferson to McHale is a valid comparison beecause they both play the same position. Jefferson to Miles is not a valid comparison. Give me a break.
> 
> Semi OT: If Walker isn't resigned does that you mean you follow him to whatever team he goes? :biggrin:
> 
> edit: And when you say by all intensive purposes, I think you mean for all intents of purpose.


Its intents and purposes, but lets not nitpick.

If you'd like to get technical, the McHale - Jefferson comparison isn't really valid either. McHale was a 23 year-old college grad who was a stick figure. Jefferson is a 20 year-old prep-star who goes 260 pounds. If McHale had the strength had Jefferson has, who knows what he would have done. Of course, if Jefferson had the college training that McHale had, who knows what he would have done.

I think the best comparison for Jefferson is Elton Brand. He could end up better than Brand, but that's the type of guy we're getting. He's going to park in the post and score and board for us. OF course, I'm not complaining at all, as Brand is a guy that I'd really want to play with Pierce.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Lanteri said:


> WOW. You cant compare Darius Miles to Al Jefferson. The guys play two totally different positions. Jefferson to McHale is a valid comparison beecause they both play the same position. Jefferson to Miles is not a valid comparison. Give me a break.
> 
> Semi OT: If Walker isn't resigned does that you mean you follow him to whatever team he goes? :biggrin:
> 
> edit: And when you say by all intensive purposes, I think you mean for all intents of purpose.



good point on the grammar...although its intents AND purposes...i never did well in that aspect of english back in hs

and give u a break cuz i compared miles to jefferson?? and ur trying to compare him to mchale because they play the same position??...ok lets compare pervis ellison to shaq...they play the same position  

and yes i will follow walker to whatever team he goes to because he is my favorite player...this doesnt mean i still wont be a celtics fan...and instead of waiting till you crack on me for saying i will follow walker dont forget u said this



Lanteri said:


> I still don't see why everyone is so eager to trade Pierce. I'd be the newest Portland fan on the board if Pierce we to go .


so before u start running off at the mouth on how id follow walker u stated ud do the same wit pp


im a big al jefferson fan dont get me wrong but some ppl on this board r making him out to be a superstar already...chill wit the mchale comparisons...dont tell me those are valid cuz thats really a joke


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> so before u start running off at the mouth on how id follow walker u stated ud do the same wit pp
> 
> 
> im a big al jefferson fan dont get me wrong but some ppl on this board r making him out to be a superstar already...chill wit the mchale comparisons...dont tell me those are valid cuz thats really a joke


It's not making him out to be a superstar, it's pointing out the potential that he has. His rookie season was very similar to that of McHale's thus making it a valid comparison. As has been said, You can't compare a power forward to Darius Miles. Sure Jefferson could flop and turn out to be a bust. He could also turn into a Jermaine O'Neal-type player or a poor man's Kevin Garnett. That's the point that is trying to be made. 

And in case you didn't notice I was joking about what I said with Pierce. Like Walker, Pierce is my favorite player and I would be sure to catch as many Portland games I could, or whatever team he would get traded to, and like you that wouldn't mean I wouldn't be a Celtics fan.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

No, you cannot compare him to a poor man's Kevin Garnett although you _can_ compare him to Darius Miles as he can play four positons including power forward. 

Let's see what Al Jefferson can do this season with extended minutes up against tougher competion before writing him off as a perennial all-star (although it is fun to)


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> No, you cannot compare him to a poor man's Kevin Garnett although you _can_ compare him to Darius Miles as he can play four positons including power forward.



thaaaaaaaaaank u...lol...and both AJ and miles came out of hs...mchale was 22 when he came out...therefore i dont think its fair to compare him to a 19 yr old


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

Premier said:


> No, you cannot compare him to a poor man's Kevin Garnett although you _can_ compare him to Darius Miles as he can play four positons including power forward.
> 
> Let's see what Al Jefferson can do this season with extended minutes up against tougher competion before writing him off as a perennial all-star (although it is fun to)


LMAO. I'd like to see Darius Miles play the 4. That would be a joke.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

SamIam said:


> Al Jefferson age19/20 Rookie stats:
> 14 min/g, 6.7 ppg, 53% FG%, 4.4 reb/g, 0.8 blocks
> 
> McHale age 22/23 Rookie stats:
> 20 min/g, 10 ppg, 53% FG%, 4.4 reb/g, 1.8 blocks


I suppose this is your official admission that you're putting your fingers in your ears and chanting "LALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU"? Are you going to make the claim that every rookie that's scored fewer than seven points per game in fifteen minutes per game has gone on to the hall of fame? Because there are some pretty mediocre players that had better rookie campaigns than Al.



SamIam said:


> Personal attack edit.


Personal attack edit.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> thaaaaaaaaaank u...lol...and both AJ and miles came out of hs...mchale was 22 when he came out...therefore i dont think its fair to compare him to a 19 yr old


That was actually my point, but you're welcome.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Here, let's have some fun with some other "hall of famers" with rookie year production similar to Al's (on a /minute basis), shall we?

*Al Jefferson 15 m/g 6.7 p/g 4.4 r/g .8 b/g*

LaPhonso Ellis 33.5 m/g 14.7 p/g 9.1 r/g 1.7 b/g
Joe Smith 34 m/g 15.3 p/g 8.7 r/g 1.6 b/g
Antoine Walker 36 m/g 17.5 p/g 9 r/g .6 b/g
Lamar Odom 36 m/g 16.6 p/g 7.8 r/g 1.3 b/g
Chuck Persons 36 m/g 18.8 p/g 8.3 r/g .2 b/g
Terry Mills 15 m/g 5.7 p/g 4.2 r/g .5 b/g
Steve Hawes 16 m/g 5.9 p/g 5 r/g .7 b/g
Swen Nater 30 m/g 14.1 p/g 12.6 r/g .8 b/g
Bill Willoghby 14 m/g 4.7 p/g 4.6 r/g .5 b/g
Danny Schayes 20 m/g 7.9 p/g 5.2 r/g .9 b/g
David Greenwood 34 m/g 16.3 p/g 9.4 r/g 1.6 b/g
LaSalle Thompson 14 m/g 5.4 p/g 5.3 r/g .9 b/g
Sidney Wicks 40 m/g 24.5 p/g 11.5 r/g
Tony Battie 23 m/g 8.4 p/g 5.4 r/g 1.1 b/g
Greg Anderson 24 m/g 11.7 p/g 6.3 r/g 1.5 b/g
Marvin Barnes 40 m/g 24 p/g 15.6 r/g 1.8 b/g
Joe Merriweather 25 m/g 10.2 p/g 6.4 r/g 1.5 b/g


Yep, Al's in some pretty elite company there. Why LeBron & Wade combined couldn't replace Al.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> Here, let's have some fun with some other "hall of famers" with production similar to Al's, shall we?
> 
> *Al Jefferson 15 m/g 6.7 p/g 4.4 r/g .8 b/g*
> 
> ...



LOL that mustve took some diggin up to get those names...but those first 5 players had MUCH better rookie seasons than al...especially that walker fellow...hes a good one :biggrin:


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

Gotta agree with munro, Jefferson may need some improved cardio, but that has nothing to do with his athleticism.

He is strong, and he is pretty quick in the post.

AW fan, how does that Kool-Aid taste? You are so blinded by your love of Walker, you are now, what? Praying Al fails? 

The comparison to Darius Miles was WAY out of line.

I mean, is anyone taking into consideration the kid's personality and makeup?

Expect to see improvement in Year 2.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

So why did you say that it was stupid to compare Big Al to McHale? If stats are meaningless why do you keep bringing up the stats of Wade and Lebron?

I am not the one who compared Al to McHale originally. It has been said many times - including Heinsohn on the air - that management thinks Big Al is the best low post prospect on the team since McHale. Like McHale he is a low post player who can spin to either side, shoot from a variety of angles, can move his man to get a preferred position. Like McHale he is slow laterally but even in limited minutes as a rookie (like McHale) has one of the highest blocks per minute in the league. Unlike McHale who was a below average rebounder for his size, Jefferson also has an outstanding rebound per minute average. Unlike McHale Jefferson can run the court and finish the fast break with authoritative dunks. Unlike McHale he has a great midrange jumper at a young age. He is also an excellent free throw shooter. 

The reason his rookie stats are mediocre like many of the mediocre players you listed (who never showed the talent that Al shows) is because he is clueless on defense. Chauncey Billups was clueless on defense as a rookie and now starts on a top 3 best defensive team in the league. [By the way, Laphonso Ellis was a great prospect and it was injuries that ruined his career]

This kid has upside and if you want to play the game of saying it means nothing go ahead. When you throw in a desire to learn, a desire to get better and the fact that his teammates love him.... you have a coach's dream.

And if you were rooting for the Celtics when I was a baby... you are probably one of those bandwagon fans who liked them because they won 8 championships in a row. I mean if you call yourself a Celtics fan and can't get excited about Al Jefferson..... wow....


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

SamIam said:


> So why did you say that it was stupid to compare Big Al to McHale? If stats are meaningless why do you keep bringing up the stats of Wade and Lebron?


What does this even mean? _You_ made the claim that Jefferson was better than Wade or LeBron because he was a 4, and made, beyond that, the claim that because his /minutes were similar to McHale's rookie year /minutes that Al was likewise Springfield bound. Ignoring the fact that McHale's /minutes were put up on an offensively loaded team and Big Al's were not. I simply made fun of your claim by dragging out a list of mediocrities that played the 4 with similar rookie year /minutes. _Your_ comparison is meaningless because your claim is based on theoretical future performance that may never arrive. It certainly didn't with the players above. I like Al, I think he'll be a top 30 player in this league one day. LeBron & Wade are top ten players today, and tomorrow. And maybe better still. Both have the sort of talent to be top 50 _All Time_ (top 10 all time in LBJ's case), only a drug addled lunatic would make that projection for Al without seeing some serious improvement first.



SamIam said:


> I am not the one who compared Al to McHale originally. It has been said many times - including Heinsohn on the air - that management thinks Big Al is the best low post *prospect* on the team since McHale.


Please see the word that I have put in bold type. Then please drag out the list of "low post prospects" that the Celtics have had since McHale. To put it mildly, if the Celtics had traded up to get Chris Kaman a couple of years ago, you'd have been able to say the same thing about him. Many people said the same thing of Eric Montross during his year here, and it was true (sadly enough). Thankfully Bird eschews Kool Aid for Michelob Lite and traded Montross for Walker (not that I'm a huge Antoine fan, but he was better than the Original Big Bindlestiff).



SamIam said:


> Like McHale he is a low post player who can spin to either side, shoot from a variety of angles, can move his man to get a preferred position. Like McHale he is slow laterally but even in limited minutes as a rookie (like McHale) has one of the highest blocks per minute in the league. Unlike McHale who was a below average rebounder for his size, Jefferson also has an outstanding rebound per minute average. Unlike McHale Jefferson can run the court and finish the fast break with authoritative dunks. Unlike McHale he has a great midrange jumper at a young age. He is also an excellent free throw shooter.


Al does not have a great midrange jumper, he did in high school, but then, it's easy to throw in jumpers over guys 6" shorter. In the pros he has trouble getting shots off outside the paint and, as Indiana showed, if you seal off the paint effectively Big Al vanishes (because he _can't_ step out and knock down a jumper). McHale was also a pretty fair shooter from 12'-18' from the get go, so I'm not sure where you developed the contrary idea (his turnaround was pretty fatal). And Al's speed isn't bad, but an end to end runner he isn't.



SamIam said:


> The reason his rookie stats are mediocre like many of the mediocre players you listed (who never showed the talent that Al shows) is because he is clueless on defense.


There was nothing wrong with Al's /minutes, just as there was nothing wrong with the /minutes of the players I listed. Some of them had _outstanding_ rookie years (such as Marvin Barnes & Sidney Wicks), but they simply didn't pan out. And some of those guys showed a whole lot _more_ game than Al did last year. As the old saying goes, "There's many a slip between cup and lip".



SamIam said:


> This kid has upside and if you want to play the game of saying it means nothing go ahead. When you throw in a desire to learn, a desire to get better and the fact that his teammates love him.... you have a coach's dream.


Combine all that along with Wade's & LBJ's performance and you have a coaches wet dream. 



SamIam said:


> And if you were rooting for the Celtics when I was a baby... you are probably one of those bandwagon fans who liked them because they won 8 championships in a row. I mean if you call yourself a Celtics fan and can't get excited about Al Jefferson..... wow....


ummm...yeah. If you can't appreciate that wearing a Celtics uniform doesn't automatically make a player a HoFer Personal attack edit.. Just because I'm a Celtics fan doesn't mean that I have to pretend that Kendrick Perkins is better than Dwight Howard, and I don't have to pretend that Al Jefferson is the greatest power forward in the history of the NBA to like the kid or his game. I was on his bandwagon in November of '03 after hearing from a friend of mine that saw the Al play while visiting his family (over on another board I had listed Jefferson & Telfair as my two primary wishes for the Celtics 2004 draft, I'll try to find the link, but SoSH is on ezBoard and the search feature sucks) . But as much as I like Al, I'd trade him straight up for LBJ or Wade in a heartbeat. So would Doc & Ainge. Personal attack edit.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Truth34 said:


> AW fan, how does that Kool-Aid taste? You are so blinded by your love of Walker, you are now, what? Praying Al fails?
> 
> The comparison to Darius Miles was WAY out of line.



cmon now lets not be silly...i am a big al jefferson fan theres no way i want him to fail...im just trying to get a couple of points across...

#1) Al hasnt proven anything in the nba yet to even be drawn in the same breath as mchale...he very well could turn out to be a star pf in the league...or he could just turn out to be a solid performer like joe smith...who knows?

#2) im not willing to waste away the prime years of pierces career while surrounding him with rookies and 2nd yr players...this is why we need antoine back and i wouldnt even mind having payton back for one more season splitting time with banks...Al still can have his 20-24 minutes a game...but i just dont think he'll be ready for any more...and if he is great! but he still wont help the team as much as a veteran leader liek toine

#3) how is the comparison to d-miles "WAY out of line"?...someone (i forget who) compared rookie stats between mchale and jefferson...so i threw in rookie stats for d-miles and showed how he NEVER improved...im not sayin they r similar players...im sayin that a player, any player, could have a semi-decent rookie season and just be stuck as a mediocre nba player

i think, and i hope, that one day al wil be as good down low as an elton brand....someoen to build a franchise around...but he isnt right now and he wont be for a little while...u cant rush the kid into things hes 20 years old and he isnt a freak of nature like amare...so let him learn the nba game and get comfortable with it and learn how to play defense befor you put the guys jersey number up in the rafters already....


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Can't we all just get along?


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

aquaitious said:


> Can't we all just get along?


NO! This is excellent conversation aqua, come on... :banana:


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

aquaitious said:


> Can't we all just get along?


Dude, if "you're a lost cause" is verboten on internet forums it's time to close up shop, because conversation is impossible at that point. John posts much worse than that on a daily basis and nobody takes offense. You really need to relax a little, get a hobby. I'd suggest Wild Turkey. :biggrin:


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## Dwyane Wade (Oct 12, 2004)

dude lantari, No personal attacks, please, Wade trade is a no brainer! I hope the heat never give up Dwyane Wade, and the thing about his 3s, its not that he cant shoot them, teh coaches have asked him not to shoot them so all he does is listen to his coach, Have you seen Dwyane Wade's playoffs stats, the company hes in with is crazy, you say hes good b/c of shaq?? yeah he helps but listen he led miami to the playoffs last year, somthing that even lebron failed to do, he was 1 of only 3 players ever to get a triple double in the final four, the numbers he avg last year as a rookie were crazy, the only other player to do the same as him was D. Robinson..

- Premier


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

ehmunro said:


> Dude, if "you're a lost cause" is verboten on internet forums it's time to close up shop, because conversation is impossible at that point. John posts much worse than that on a daily basis and nobody takes offense. You really need to relax a little, get a hobby. I'd suggest Wild Turkey. :biggrin:


I AM RELAXED. 

Seriously I am, kinda skimming through the thing.

BTW who's John?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> But as much as I like Al, I'd trade him straight up for LBJ or Wade in a heartbeat.


Anybody who thinks otherwise needs to take off the blinders, IMO.


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## BackwoodsBum (Jul 2, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> #2) im not willing to waste away the prime years of pierces career while surrounding him with rookies and 2nd yr players...this is why we need antoine back and i wouldnt even mind having payton back for one more season splitting time with banks...Al still can have his 20-24 minutes a game...but i just dont think he'll be ready for any more...and if he is great! but he still wont help the team as much as a veteran leader liek toine


I hate to break it to you, but the best years of Pierce's career have already been wasted. Right now I'm not willing to hurt the future of the team coddling a spoiled whiner whose best years are behind him or letting the young guys rot on the bench while Walker, Payton, Blount, etc. play. Let the young guys play and prepare for the future!


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Paul is two years removed from being a 26/7/4 guy. Last year, despite his poor shooting, he was a Top 5 scorer in the NBA. This year he was among the league leaders in points per shot, had the best FG% of his career, had a drastic turnaround from beyond the arc, had the lowest turnovers since his rookie year, and you say he's in the decline of his career? All I can do is shake my head. Paul managed around 22ppg on about 15 shots, was still among the best in the league at getting to the line, and most of all, despite his problems with Doc, bought into the system and made a conscious effort to avoid it being the Paul Pierce Show. After their problems Doc gave Paul good reviews and said he liked what he saw.

It's ironic. Everybody cries about wanting their star to play unselfishly, one finally does, and people are whining about him being in the decline of his career. 22/7/4 is a pretty sick decline, too. I bet everybody wishes they could go out of their prime like that.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

BackwoodsBum said:


> I hate to break it to you, but the best years of Pierce's career have already been wasted. Right now I'm not willing to hurt the future of the team coddling a spoiled whiner whose best years are behind him or letting the young guys rot on the bench while Walker, Payton, Blount, etc. play. Let the young guys play and prepare for the future!



easssssssssssssssy mah man...hes 27....theres no way that the best years have been wasterd for pierce...he'll stay playin at a superstar status for at least 3 more seasons


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

ehmunro said:


> _You_ made the claim that Jefferson was better than Wade or LeBron because he was a 4, and made, beyond that, the claim that because his /minutes were similar to McHale's rookie year /minutes that Al was likewise Springfield bound.
> 
> Classic misquoting. Ehmunro, I don't know what your problem with Al is okay. I never said Al was better than Wade or Lebron. My point is that an all-star big man is more valuable due to supply and demand issues than an allstar guard. I happen to think Jermaine O'Neal is overrated and that Pierce is a better player. I also said I would trade Pierce for JO because a big man like that is gold in the NBA. You just can't win without 1 or 2 guys like that. That is why teams like Sacramento, Dallas, New Jersey, Denver etc. will never win it.
> 
> ...


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## BackwoodsBum (Jul 2, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> easssssssssssssssy mah man...hes 27....theres no way that the best years have been wasterd for pierce...he'll stay playin at a superstar status for at least 3 more seasons


In my opinion he has never played at "superstar" status and hasn't played at "star" status in over two seasons. He has become spoiled, complacent, self-absorbed, and regardless of his obvious talent I'm not seeing the effort on a consistent basis. People like to quote statistics and say this was his best year but I watched all but a couple of games this season (as I have every season for MANY years) and there is no way anyone who watched the games can say his performance this year was better than it was 3 or 4 years ago. Number alone don't tell the whole story and you can juggle numbers around to justify any point of view. 

Look at it from this point of view...do you think his trade value now is as high as it was 3 years ago??? I can promise you that if you called the GM's of every team in the NBA and asked that question you would be lucky to find 3 or 4 who answered yes. A few years ago most any team would have loved to trade for Pierce and you could just about name your price, but now the trade rumors are all about swapping him for expiring contracts and draft picks or untested prospects. Over last summer the rumor was that Phoenix was interested in swapping Marion for Pierce...do you think they would still do that trade??? If so we need to do it now, but I doubt that Phoenix would even consider it. If he is coming off his best season than why is his trade value declining and why does it seem that for the first time since he has been with the team that not only are they considering a trade they may actively be seeking one (as was rumored before the trade deadline and many times since). 

You're entitled to your point of view, but there are a number of things that point to a rather dramatic decline and one that is not one that is caused by age, injury, etc. I don't see him being motivated enough to reach his true potential at this point so I think he has played his best ball as a Celtic anyway. Who knows, maybe something will light a fire under him but I doubt it.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

SamIam said:


> Ehmunro, I don't know what your problem with Al is okay.


I don't have one, in December of '03 he & Telfair were my stated two choices for the Celtics in the 2004 draft. When I wrote my draft mockery for the late, lamented Hoops Boston I had him down for the Celtics (but not Telfair because everyone knew that Portland was picking him in the lottery). What I _haven't_ done is anoint him the best big man in the NBA based on limited playing time one year removed from high school. You are severely overvaluing him.



SamIam said:


> My point is that an all-star big man is more valuable due to supply and demand issues than an allstar guard. I happen to think Jermaine O'Neal is overrated and that Pierce is a better player. I also said I would trade Pierce for JO because a big man like that is gold in the NBA. You just can't win without 1 or 2 guys like that. That is why teams like Sacramento, Dallas, New Jersey, Denver etc. will never win it.


The reason that Dallas & Sacramento never won it was that their coaches never stressed defense, so come the conference semis & finals, they couldn't stop the opposition from scoring during crunchtime. New Jersey simply wasn't talented enough during their time atop the east. Don't write off Denver, they have firepower, defense & rebounding. It will just take another year or two to put together. 

There are lots of big men around the NBA, franchise players on the other hand, are few and far between. You might dump Pierce for a poor shooting big man, I think I'd hang on to Paul and find a Drew Gooden/Chris Wilcox type that comes cheaper. In 1993 would you have dealt Jordan for a 4/5? Think Utah doesn't say _yes_ before Krauss comes to his senses if he had proposed Jordan for Malone? Players like LBJ are _the rarest_ commodity in the NBA, and if someone is stupid enough to offer you one for a prospect, you grab it.



SamIam said:


> Now you have done nothing but diss Al Jefferson. You spend hours digging up all these failed players and list their stats to prove what exactly? To prove what a great evaluator of talent you are? To prove what a great fan you are? What exactly is you point?


So, _not_ declaring Jefferson a future hall of famer qualifies as "dissing". While some of you all talk an awful lot of trash about the veteran Celts, does that mean you're not a fan either? Or is Celtics fandom measured only by the amount of superlatives you heap on Big Al? 

I have a pretty clear evaluation of what he does well and what he doesn't. He could develop into a great player, he might not. I'm all for not sacrificing future production for present production, but if the deal involves another young player already producing five star numbers, you do it. And whether you like it or not, any NBA GM would say the same (actually, some don't set the bar that high, case in point, Larry Brown).



SamIam said:


> I will enjoy reminding you of these posts in 2 years when Al Jefferson is the toast of the town.


Son, you really need a hobby if this is your idea of fun.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

You keep bringing up Jordan as if we can plan on getting the player of the 20th century. Only one athlete comes to mind that even compares to Jordan and that would be Babe Ruth. Barring having the one player who is without question the best player in the league... not only that but so good that you wouldn't trade him for the 2nd and 3rd best players in the league at that time... I just don't get your point.

Who was MVP this year? Steve Nash. Would you trade Shaq and Wade for him? HELL NO! But you might have traded Olajuwan and Malone for Jordan! In a league where there is no consensus best player..... a guy like Jefferson is money. You actually can create a championship team with a Jefferson. Just look at Detroit - no superstar but because they have 2 solid big men, their above average little guys shine.

We are never going to get a Duncan, a Garnett or a Wade for that matter. Trading Jefferson just isn't an option.... PERIOD. 

And as far as Lebron being the next great thing.... he is what he is.... he is a guy who matured early. Some assume that he will go from where he is to some exalted level just because guys like Kobe and T-Mac weren't that good at 18. I don't. I think 27-7-6 is pretty great .... but Lebron is no Jordan. He may get smarter but there is no next level for him.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

SamIam said:


> You keep bringing up Jordan as if we can plan on getting the player of the 20th century. Only one athlete comes to mind that even compares to Jordan and that would be Babe Ruth. Barring having the one player who is without question the best player in the league... not only that but so good that you wouldn't trade him for the 2nd and 3rd best players in the league at that time... I just don't get your point.


_Your_ claim is that Big Al is more valuable than Dwyane Wade or LeBron James. It's a foolish claim, and you're beginning to look as foolish as BigJohn did in defending his claim that Paul Pierce was only worth an exchange of second round picks. Big Al is not Amare, won't ever be Amare. Amare is a franchise player. LeBron is a franchise player. Wade is a franchise player. Big Al might be a better version of Elton Brand. Good? Yes. Great value for the 15th pick? Definitely. Better than LBJ or Wade? No way, José. To you, this constitutes a "dis" of Big Al. I don't think that even Big Al would agree with you here.




SamIam said:


> Who was MVP this year? Steve Nash. Would you trade Shaq and Wade for him?


Why would I trade a franchise player for the poster boy of frustrated, middle aged white guys?



SamIam said:


> But you might have traded Olajuwan and Malone for Jordan!


Actually, Olajuwon might have been the only big that wouldn't be dealt for Jordan, he was 1B in that era.



SamIam said:


> In a league where there is no consensus best player..... a guy like Jefferson is money. You actually can create a championship team with a Jefferson. Just look at Detroit - no superstar but because they have 2 solid big men, their above average little guys shine.


The reason that there's no consensus best player is that there are 8-10 franchise players in the league. Big Al isn't one of them. He isn't likely to ever be one of them. And Detroit won a title _without_ anyone like Big Al, they built their team around three all stars/near all stars and a ferocious defense. When they acquired a fourth near all star (Rashweed Wallace) that threw himself maniacally into the defense they became pretty tough. If Jermaine O'Neal hadn't been injured, Detroit might have been an also ran, but luck was with them, because as many of us noted last year, the winner of the East was going to be the title winner. 



SamIam said:


> We are never going to get a Duncan, a Garnett or a Wade for that matter. Trading Jefferson just isn't an option.... PERIOD.


This is backpedaling from your original claim that Jefferson was more valuable than Wade or LeBron and that no intelligent person would ever make such a deal. The problem is that the only GMs in league history that'd agree with you are Scott Layden & Jim Paxson.



SamIam said:


> And as far as Lebron being the next great thing.... he is what he is.... he is a guy who matured early. Some assume that he will go from where he is to some exalted level just because guys like Kobe and T-Mac weren't that good at 18. I don't. I think 27-7-6 is pretty great .... but Lebron is no Jordan. He may get smarter but there is no next level for him.


High school players make their biggest jump in their first three years, so you're essentially claiming that the greatest 18 year old in the game's history has already hit his plateau and will never get any better. Let me say that I have my doubts about your talent evaluation skills. The fact is that Jordan wasn't that good at 20. Will he be the next Jordan? He plays a different style game. The player he most resembles is Oscar Robertson, and he most certainly seems to be growing into that role. So, I'll stick with my oft repeated observation that he's the next Oscar, and if I could trade Al for the next Oscar I'd do it before the other guy came to his senses.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

ehmunro said:


> Big Al is not Amare, won't ever be Amare. Amare is a franchise player. LeBron is a franchise player. Wade is a franchise player. Big Al might be a better version of Elton Brand. The reason that there's no consensus best player is that there are 8-10 franchise players in the league. Big Al isn't one of them. He isn't likely to ever be one of them.


You claim Al Jefferson will never be a franchise player. I think you are wrong. That is the basis of our disagreement. I think the Celtics brass would disagree with you. I think several NBA stars have taken notice of Big Al. Several beat writers in Boston - like Bob Ryan - would disagree with you. I respect your opinion but I am surprised that a Celtics fan would actually argue that opinion so forcefully.

Consider that Big Al is still immature (unlike Lebron). Age is just a number. McHale - a fade away jump shooter at age 22 - developed into a feared low post player by age 25 and was more a concern for opposing defenses than Larry Bird. Al Jefferson at age 19 does not take weak fade away jump shots. However, his arms are skinny, he is awkward still and he is definitely clueless at both ends of the court.

Lebron is like those guys I went to high school with who didn't get carded at the package store and had beards in 9th grade. He became a man early. His upside (relative to his current level of play) is actually not that great but for that matter it doesnt need to be. Like Magic Johnson at age 19 Lebron is already there. His outside shooting and defense will improve some but I honestly believe that what you see is what you get. Ditto for Wade. Lebron could be the next Magic or Larry. Wade is exciting and has the killer instinct/leadership that Lebron lacks. I just don't see him as the answer in Boston. Would I trade Pierce and lots of draft picks for him? YES! Big Al? NO!

Al Jefferson at age 19 was not ready for the NBA yet he contributed mightily at times. In game 1 against the Pacers he got the attention of Rick Carlysle. He has a lot to learn. Once he becomes the first option on offense and learns to avoid the double team he will be a force. You don't believe it. You only see Elton Brand in his future. I see a bigger, badder Karl Malone. We'll see who is right and I bet by December of 2005 it will be me.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Over last summer the rumor was that Phoenix was interested in swapping Marion for Pierce...do you think they would still do that trade


I'm glad we didn't, because I know I sure wouldn't want to pull the trigger on that. Marion is a big stats guy but he doesn't really have a huge impact on games. We trade a bona fide first scoring option away for a guy who can't even create his own shot and doesn't even have plays run for him on his own team? A proven playoff and clutch performer for a guy who's a notorious choker in the playoffs (first thing you're gonna do is go look up his stats...well, they aren't bad, but he's had a number of bad series)? Hell, Marion makes Peja Stojankovic look like MJ in terms of playoff heroics. 

This leaves us with Ricky as our #1 option, and Shawn Marion as our #2. Marion can't bear the burden of being a legit #1 option, and I don't think Ricky Davis can either. And although PP has had attitude problems this year Doc has praised him numerous times on his leadership, and he's the team captain for a reason. If Doc thought he was unable to fulfill this position, don't you think somebody else would be captain right now? Reminds me of when Ricky Davis was talking about the dying seconds of the game, and Doc was drawing up a shot for Paul. PP pulled his teammates aside and said, "Do you trust me?" Ricky said that instantly they all nodded yes. Or how about the time against the Rockets that Ricky had the hot hand, and in the huddle RD kept saying they needed to get PP the ball, but Paul kept saying that Ricky had the hot hand and the game-winning shot needed to be drawn for him. Don't forget PP was second in the league in go-ahead FG's in the last two minutes or something.

These are just a few minor examples, but they definitely show that PP's behaviour hasn't been all bad. It wasn't ideal this season but he does possess some leadership qualities and has put the Celtics on his back and carried them numerous times in the past. Do you think Shawn Marion can do that? Because I sure don't.


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## BackwoodsBum (Jul 2, 2003)

You call Pierce a proven clutch performer but other than a few games this year he cost the team more games than he won for them including nearly costing them a playoff game where his actions were an embarassment to the team, the organization, and the fans. To Marions credit he is a class act on and off the court and I can't ever remember hearing a single time when Suns fans have ever had a reaseon to be ashamed that was on their team. Yes there have been games where Pierce has absolutely taken over the fourth quarter, but those games have been fewer and farther between in recent years and usually come after sub-par performances in the first three quarters.

If I was DA and Phoenix offered to trade me Marion for Pierce right now I'd do it in a heartbeat, and I'd be happy to throw in this year's first rounder if it took that to convince them to do it. Would that be enough, probably not IMHO. Right now I'd trade Pierce for a decent water boy just to get him out of town because I think he is a cancer and that the team would be better off without him. You talk about who would replace him, my answer is that you don't need to worry about one player replacing him because there are five players on the court at any given time. Give me five players who play as a team as opposed to one ballhog and 4 people watching and my money is on the people playing as a team. 

As for as I am concerned Pierce has NO leadership qualities and the only reason he is captain is because following the first Walker trade they turned the team over to him hoping he would step up. He hasn't and probably won't, but if they made someone else captain now he would only sulk worse than he is already so they are stuck with him. 

Anyway I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on Pierce.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

BackwoodsBum said:


> You call Pierce a proven clutch performer but other than a few games this year he cost the team more games than he won


PP was #2 in the league in game-winning shots this year. You can't make them all, and though there were some disappointing moments (ie. the missed FT's against Philadelphia) you can't just write off his clutch play. At one point this year he had 3 game winning shots in a row.



> for them including nearly costing them a playoff game where his actions were an embarassment to the team, the organization, and the fans.


And you're prepared to write off what, six years of contribution because of one bad decision?



> To Marions credit he is a class act on and off the court and I can't ever remember hearing a single time when Suns fans have ever had a reaseon to be ashamed that was on their team.


So this is why we should trade for him? Because he's "classier"? 



> Yes there have been games where Pierce has absolutely taken over the fourth quarter, but those games have been fewer and farther between in recent years and usually come after sub-par performances in the first three quarters.


I agree, there have been some of these games. But it's unfair to categorize all of his performances in this fashion.



> If I was DA and Phoenix offered to trade me Marion for Pierce right now I'd do it in a heartbeat, and I'd be happy to throw in this year's first rounder if it took that to convince them to do it.


I'd call you crazy, and DA would laugh in Phoenix's face if they wanted a 1st rounder. Pierce for Marion is conceivable, I wouldn't do it, but conceivable. If you think DA would actually trade Pierce and a 1st rounder you're nuts. Plus why would Phoenix do it? Add another scorer and big ego when they're a team desperately in need of D?



> Would that be enough, probably not IMHO.


If Phoenix didn't have so much scoring already, they'd be crazy not to do it.



> Right now I'd trade Pierce for a decent water boy just to get him out of town because I think he is a cancer and that the team would be better off without him.


That's your opinion so I certainly can't say that you are incorrect and I can see where you're coming from. I just disagree.



> You talk about who would replace him, my answer is that you don't need to worry about one player replacing him because there are five players on the court at any given time.


Five players, none of which are capable of what Pierce can do.



> Give me five players who play as a team as opposed to one ballhog and 4 people watching and my money is on the people playing as a team.


This is the first thing you've said that I strenuously disagree with. You call Pierce selfish, a ballhog, when he actually adjusted to the team concept Doc was trying to implement and cut down on his shots- drastically. I find it appalling that you can call this year's version of PP a ballhog... like I said before, everybody wants their star to be unselfish, now Paul finally gets into the team concept, and he's criticized for it. Let's not forget he also battled hard on the D boards all year, something we desperately needed from him. 



> As for as I am concerned Pierce has NO leadership qualities and the only reason he is captain is because following the first Walker trade they turned the team over to him hoping he would step up.


Fair enough. Pierce isn't a spectacular leader and he'd be better off being second fiddle (in terms of leadership, anyways). But I don't think he's as bad as you make him out to be.



> He hasn't and probably won't, but if they made someone else captain now he would only sulk worse than he is already so they are stuck with him.


That's a good point.



> Anyway I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on Pierce.


Obviously, neither of us are budging. I believe we both make solid points. We'll just have to see how everything pans out.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

BackwoodsBum said:


> You call Pierce a proven clutch performer but other than a few games this year he cost the team more games than he won for them including nearly costing them a playoff game where his actions were an embarassment to the team, the organization, and the fans. To Marions credit he is a class act on and off the court and I can't ever remember hearing a single time when Suns fans have ever had a reaseon to be ashamed that was on their team. Yes there have been games where Pierce has absolutely taken over the fourth quarter, but those games have been fewer and farther between in recent years and usually come after sub-par performances in the first three quarters.
> 
> If I was DA and Phoenix offered to trade me Marion for Pierce right now I'd do it in a heartbeat, and I'd be happy to throw in this year's first rounder if it took that to convince them to do it. Would that be enough, probably not IMHO. Right now I'd trade Pierce for a decent water boy just to get him out of town because I think he is a cancer and that the team would be better off without him. You talk about who would replace him, my answer is that you don't need to worry about one player replacing him because there are five players on the court at any given time. Give me five players who play as a team as opposed to one ballhog and 4 people watching and my money is on the people playing as a team.
> 
> ...


Were you this angry when Bird broke his hand in the barroom brawl? You know, right before game 6 of the 1984 Finals? Costing the Celtics the NBA title? Was Bird a cancer?


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

I have been on vacation the past week so I'm chiming in now. I would not trade Al for too many people in this league because I believe he will be top 10 in this league. I would do a deal that involved KG, Duncan, LeBron, Howard, Amare...but not too many others. I am that sold on the kid and I don't care what anyone else thinks of that, I see a future SUPERSTAR in Al Jefferson and no one is going to change my opinion on that.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

whiterhino said:


> I have been on vacation the past week so I'm chiming in now. I would not trade Al for too many people in this league because I believe he will be top 10 in this league. I would do a deal that involved KG, Duncan, LeBron, Howard, Amare...but not too many others. I am that sold on the kid and I don't care what anyone else thinks of that, I see a future SUPERSTAR in Al Jefferson and no one is going to change my opinion on that.



I couldn't agree more.

As far as Pierce as a ballhog I just want to remind everybody of his playoff stats this year. Yeah, stats can mislead .... but they mean far more that Pierce-bashers opinions. If you hate Paul Pierce's game... say so. But why do you have to lie about him to prove your point. What ball hog averages 13 shots per game, shoots 50% from the field, leads his team in rebounds, blocks, steals, assists and points, and draws more fouls than anybody else on the team?

FGM-A FG% FTM-A FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PPG 
47-93 .505 59-68 .868 1.00 6.70 7.70 4.6 1.86 1.43 2.71 22.9


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

Say what you want about Pierce's behavior during Games 6 and 7, but Pierce was very good in the playoffs.


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## celtsb34 (Apr 22, 2005)

okafor


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## AMΣRICAN GOD™ (Jun 4, 2005)

I wouldn't trade Pierce for anyone in the East. Or any in the West for that. I think that Pierce is the best player that the Celts have seen in a long long time and about his leadership skills...actually, I agree. He's been a #1 guy for a long time, but hasn't shown me much in that department. And when other players stepped up to that postition for a game or two, PP didn't seem to mind. Bring in a vertran who can teach the young kids and drop our big men (minus AJ).


Oh, and it seems that only Boston sees Big Al's potential....hmm...


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

TAllen42 said:


> I wouldn't trade Pierce for anyone in the East. Or any in the West for that. I think that Pierce is the best player that the Celts have seen in a long long time and about his leadership skills...actually, I agree. He's been a #1 guy for a long time, but hasn't shown me much in that department. And when other players stepped up to that postition for a game or two, PP didn't seem to mind. Bring in a vertran who can teach the young kids and drop our big men (minus AJ).
> 
> 
> Oh, and it seems that only Boston sees Big Al's potential....hmm...


You wouldn't trade Pierce for ANYONE in the East? Surely you can't mean that? You wouldn't take LeBron, Dwyane Wade, Shaq, JO, Dwight Howard, Jason Kidd, Chris Bosh, AI, Ilgauskas or anyone else for Pierce???? I mean I don't want to give him away but I'd take some of those guys that's for darn sure.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Other teams see Al Jefferson's potential, they just aren't infatuated with it like Ainge is.

I think he will become a good power forward and potentially a multiple all-star.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

whiterhino said:


> You wouldn't trade Pierce for ANYONE in the East? Surely you can't mean that? You wouldn't take LeBron, Dwyane Wade, Shaq, JO, Dwight Howard, Jason Kidd, Chris Bosh, AI, Ilgauskas or anyone else for Pierce???? I mean I don't want to give him away but I'd take some of those guys that's for darn sure.


Wade, Lebron, Bosh - absolutely. Contracts and age make it a no brainer.
Shaq - no way. He is 30 million a year and declining though it would be fun for a year.
Dwight Howard - sure!
Jason Kidd, AI - reached higher levels than Pierce but better days are behind. AI will never win without a dominant big man like Duncan or Shaq. Kidd is damaged goods now.

Ilgauskas - are you joking???? Cleveland if you recall had #4 seed wrapped up and then pulled a swan dive worse than the 1978 Red Sox!


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