# Dont Forget about Dirk!!!!



## FlyingTiger

seems like everybody leaving him out of the all star game or the top 10 list. sure his numbers are down (played hurt first 2 months of the season) but ask any GM they would put him top 5 easily.  this guy plays basketball year round. no wonder hes the euro player of the year 2 years running. dont give me that bs that he has superstars around him. the mavs was worst team in basketball history. since the mavs made the playoffs 3 years a go the team never lost in the first round.. one more thing..hes 25 years old..nuff said!!


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## Johnny Mac

Good night to praise him. He tore it up tonight. Hes not top 5 I dont think, hes probably top 10, not easily though.


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## Nevus

I agree with John the Cool Kid, Dirk is not top 5 and not easily in the top 10... he's really got to start providing more for his team than just scoring and rebounding to reach that high. A lot of guys can score and rebound.


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## MavsPoke

All right. Name 'em.


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## Nevus

Shareef Abdur Rahim.


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## MLKG

Lamar Odom


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## MavsPoke

Keep going.


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## Scinos

> Originally posted by <b>MavsPoke</b>!
> Keep going.


Zach Randolph


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## MavsPoke

Ok that's good. So we need to compare Dirk to Randolph, Rahim and Odom.

Ok. 

Just for starters lets look at effeciency:

These are not carreer numbers just this year. 

Dirk = 13th
Randolph = 10th
Odom = 35th
Shariff = 17th

Not bad. Looks Rahim and Randolph are strong cases. Lets leave Odom out.

Now sing me their praises and why they push Dirk out of the top 10 player in the league.


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## MLKG

Just saying a lot of guys can score and rebound.

Dirk's a big boy and he needs to learn to play defense

Why isn't Dirk a top 10 player? Because there are 10 players better than him.

In no particular order:

Shaq
KG
Duncan
Kobe
McGrady
Iverson
Webber
J.O.
Kidd
Allen

Dirk is close though, just a little to 1-dimensional. 

1 / Dirk = Ben Wallace


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## Johnny Mac

Shaq, TD, KG, JO, Brand, Tmac, Peja, Kidd, Iverson, Pierce, Dirk

Hes arguably better than 2-3 of those guys. Thats why hes probably top ten, not easily though.


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## FlyingTiger

you make your name in the playoffs..dirk has crazy numbers in the post season. 

2003 17 gms 25.3 pts 11.5 rbs .479 fg% .443 3fg% .912 ft%

2002 8 gms 28.4 pts 13.1 rbs .445 fg% .571 3fg% .878 ft%

2001 10 gms 23.4 pts 8.1 rbs .423 fg% .283 3fg% .883 ft%

now to all the dirk haters. show me anybody with those numbers.


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## Kmasonbx

I would say Dirk is the 8th best player in the league, behind, KG, TD, Kobe, T Mac, Shaq, AI and Pierce. Dirk maye only score and rebound but its how he does it. How many people average 20 and 9, and Dirk was hurt early in the season. He's nearly 7 feet and is a lights out shooter, tonight he was 8-11 from 3, he is a major mismatch. He can't guard a soul though, but he's European how many can actually play D.


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## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> I would say Dirk is the 8th best player in the league, behind, KG, TD, Kobe, T Mac, Shaq, AI and Pierce. Dirk maye only score and rebound but its how he does it. How many people average 20 and 9, and Dirk was hurt early in the season. He's nearly 7 feet and is a lights out shooter, tonight he was 8-11 from 3, he is a major mismatch. He can't guard a soul though, but he's European how many can actually play D.


let's break down the myth that all europeans don't know how to play D.

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72486&forumid=2

Also why are we just focusing on offense. last time i check to be a basketball player you have to play both ends of the court. if it were just offense sure he'd be top 3. he automatically goes down a couple notches because he can't


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> How many people average 20 and 9


Duncan
Garnett
Shaq
Jermaine
Brand
Shareef
Randolph
Dirk

Marion is close.

Not quite as exclusive a club as you think.


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## FlyingTiger

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Just saying a lot of guys can score and rebound.
> 
> Dirk's a big boy and he needs to learn to play defense
> 
> Why isn't Dirk a top 10 player? Because there are 10 players better than him.
> 
> In no particular order:
> 
> Shaq
> KG
> Duncan
> Kobe
> McGrady
> Iverson
> Webber
> J.O.
> Kidd
> Allen
> 
> Dirk is close though, just a little to 1-dimensional.
> 
> 1 / Dirk = Ben Wallace


Shaq better then dirk, getting old and hurt though

KG better, but not much ....remeber the 02 playoffs? 

Duncan better, dirk better in O, but D far worst then duncan

Kobe nope, SG can not carry or make a team just look at the lakers record with out daddy.

tmac nope, look at his team cant even make the playoff in the east. hes great but again..big men just to hard to find.

webber nope, always hurt and dirk better anyways. switch dirk with webber, sac gets better mavs get worst

JO nope.

AI maybe when healthy, 

Kidd nope, mavs didnt even want to trade nash for kidd this summer.

remember dirk plays in the west vs people like sheed, gasol, AK47 that would easily be superstars in the east.


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> I agree with John the Cool Kid, Dirk is not top 5 and not easily in the top 10... he's really got to start providing more for his team than just scoring and rebounding to reach that high. A lot of guys can score and rebound.



man you're such a mavs hater it's not even funny

Dirk is putting up 22 points 9 boards and 3 dimes a game. [email protected] of guys can score and rebound. Can they dominate a game offensively like dirk? Ask kg bout dirk torching him in the playoffs 2 years ago. Ask sheed about dirk busting 42 and 46 on him in the playoffs last year. Ask duncan about dirk having 2 front teeth knocked out in the playoffs 3 years ago and coming back with a mouthpiece and scoring 42 points and grabbing 20 boards. [email protected] lists i'm seeing. [email protected] ray allen, cwebb and joneal better than dirk. Oneal can't even get his team outta round 1. He disappeared last year in the playoffs. Ray Allen is a good scorer that's it. Cwebb is ALWAYS hurt, chokes at the line too much and plays worse DEFENSE than dirk. Dirk is top ten EASILY. there's no way in hell you can convince me that there are ten other players in this league who can do the things that dirk can do on the court


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> Shareef Abdur Rahim.


lol reef is better than dirk? you are truely illogical. That's just rediculous


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Lamar Odom


[email protected] being better than dirk. how many full seasons has he played again? He's just one blunt away from being banned from the nba for life. That's hilarious.


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## nikebasketball

Dirk deserves a starting spot on the West squad IMO.


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Just saying a lot of guys can score and rebound.
> 
> Dirk's a big boy and he needs to learn to play defense
> 
> Why isn't Dirk a top 10 player? Because there are 10 players better than him.
> 
> In no particular order:
> 
> Shaq
> KG
> Duncan
> Kobe
> McGrady
> Iverson
> Webber
> J.O.
> Kidd
> Allen
> 
> Dirk is close though, just a little to 1-dimensional.
> 
> 1 / Dirk = Ben Wallace


so let's get this straight. iverson plays defense? webber plays defense? Ray allen plays defense? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL man cats on this board just hate on any player in a mavs jersey. WEbbers team has won 30 games without him. That's just how much they "need" him


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Scinos</b>!
> 
> 
> Zach Randolph


lol zach randolph? Cmon now man now you're really stretching the truth like professor klump's elastic waist bands. zach randolph doesn't play any defense either. his "D" is worse than dirks. Randolph hasn't evne put up GOOD NUMBERS FOR ONE FULL SEASON and he's better than dirk? *sigh* where do you guys come from?


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> 
> [email protected] being better than dirk. how many full seasons has he played again? He's just one blunt away from being banned from the nba for life. That's hilarious.


Seriously, reading comprehension. We were listing guys who score and rebound but don't do much else. 

Nobody said SAR, Zach, or Odom was better than Dirk.



> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> 
> so let's get this straight. iverson plays defense? webber plays defense? Ray allen plays defense? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL man cats on this board just hate on any player in a mavs jersey. WEbbers team has won 30 games without him. That's just how much they "need" him


Iverson is a former MVP. 

Webber scores just as much, is a better rebounder, and is a WORLD's better passer.

You're right about Ray Allen though, I guees I'd put Marbury in the top 10 before him.

And if Webber's team has won 30 without him that must mean he plays for a pretty damn good team.


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Shaq, TD, KG, JO, Brand, Tmac, Peja, Kidd, Iverson, Pierce, Dirk
> 
> Hes arguably better than 2-3 of those guys. Thats why hes probably top ten, not easily though.



now peja is better than dirk? LOLLLLLLLLLL peja is 6 10 and grabs like 4 boards a game and doesnt play any "D" and has trouble creating his own shot. He's like the foreign version of reggie miller with more height. Peeps seem to forgot how tall peja is because he plays MUCH SMALLER than he looks. why does peja get a pass but dirk is constantly hated on for his average D" Brand is better than dirk? LOl once brand hits 18 points he's done for the night. Pierce is better than dirk? You mean the paul pierce that will score 30 one night and then shoot 4 for 20 the next night? The same paul pierce that leads the league in turnovers? Man yalls lists suck so bad


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Seriously, reading comprehension. We were listing guys who score and rebound but don't do much else.
> 
> Nobody said SAR, Zach, or Odom was better than Dirk.


nope yall said those guys were better. t hat's what the other poster asked you. Odom is a heck of a passer. he's a triple dub threat every night. Zach, reef, and odom haven't proven they can carry a team the way dirk can. DIRK LED ALL SCORERS IN ROUND ONE AVERAGING 31 POINTS A GAME IN THAT BLAZERS SERIES. HE'S A MUCH IMPROVED PASSER AND WILL BLOCK A FEW SHOTS. 

Dirk averages 26 points and 11 boarss in the playoffs FOR HIS CAREER. His game RISES to the ocassion even more so there. kg has been put out of round 1 for 7 straight years and has like 4 career 30 point games. 

last year dirk put up 25 points 10 boards 3 dimes 1 block and a steal a game. How is that one dimensional? One dimensional is ALLAN HOUSTON. NO handles cant take you off the dribble. Just needs open looks. Dirk can take you off the dribble, he can post you up, he can pass it, rebound it, hell block a few shots, and get a few steals. 

Kg is a good defender right? Then why did dirk average 33 points 16 boards 3 dimes and 3 steals a game against him in the playoffs 2 years ago? he shot over 50 percent from 2 land and over 70 percent from 3 land. So if kg's so good why can't he stop dirk? There is NOBODY IN THE NBA WHO CAN STOP DIRK. not duncan not shaq NOBODY. He can shoot over the top of smaller players and elude bigger guys cause he's faster and got handles. How often do you see a seven footer cross someone over like a guard then rise up and busy a 20 footer dead in their face?


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> 
> nope yall said those guys were better. t hat's what the other poster asked you. Odom is a heck of a passer. he's a triple dub threat every night. Zach, reef, and odom haven't proven they can carry a team the way dirk can. DIRK LED ALL SCORERS IN ROUND ONE AVERAGING 31 POINTS A GAME IN THAT BLAZERS SERIES. HE'S A MUCH IMPROVED PASSER AND WILL BLOCK A FEW SHOTS.


OK I guess I didn't know what I was saying. Go read it again. One guy said lots of guys score and rebound, another said name them, so we did. But I guess you would know what I was saying more than I would. 



> Dirk averages 26 points and 11 boarss in the playoffs FOR HIS CAREER.


I was going to tell you Dirk has never recorded 11 assists in his life, but I see you edited that part out.



> last year dirk put up 25 points 10 boards 3 dimes 1 block and a steal a game. How is that one dimensional? One dimensional is ALLAN HOUSTON. NO handles can't take you off the dribble. Just needs open looks. Dirk can't take you off the dribble, he can post you up, he can pass it, rebound it, hell block a few shots, and get a few steals.


Yup, Allan Houston is 1-dimensional as hell. So is Dirk. Okay, he's a decent rebounder, so he's 2-dimensional. He's still a friggin Matador on defense. Ben Wallace is every bit as good on defense as Dirk is on offense, but is limited on offense, does that make HIM a top 10 player?



> Kg is a good defender right? Then why did dirk average 33 points 16 boards 3 dimes and 3 steals a game against him in the playoffs 2 years ago?


This isn't 2 years ago. KG is the MVP this year. Get used to it.


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## Cap

Dirk is as soft as my left butt cheek.


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## solo

> nope yall said those guys were better.


K lets go back through time...look at post #3 by Nevus it says "A lot of guys can score and rebound. Then in post #4 MavsPoke said "All right. Name 'em." Theennnnn players such as Shareef, Odom, and Randolph were named so ya reading comprehension is key.
As of players better pr at least as good as Dirk (Probly better)
Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, KG, J O'neal, Ron Artest, B. Davis, Stephon Marbury, Peja, J Kidd.......etc. 
And as for looking back at how they did before, thats a stupid argument. The pest player is as of now, not 2 years ago not 3 not 8 years ago. If you go by that method you need to have Reggie Miller, Mark Jackson, Scottie Pippen on the list as well.


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## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> now peja is better than dirk? LOLLLLLLLLLL peja is 6 10 and grabs like 4 boards a game and doesnt play any "D" and has trouble creating his own shot. He's like the foreign version of reggie miller with more height. Peeps seem to forgot how tall peja is because he plays MUCH SMALLER than he looks. why does peja get a pass but dirk is constantly hated on for his average D" Brand is better than dirk? LOl once brand hits 18 points he's done for the night. Pierce is better than dirk? You mean the paul pierce that will score 30 one night and then shoot 4 for 20 the next night? The same paul pierce that leads the league in turnovers? Man yalls lists suck so bad


the bait looks mighty tasty today.

You need to take off your Mavericks glasses fanboy and see things objectively. 
"dirk is constantly hated on for his average D"' NO. it is less than acceptable defense.

but you take the bad with the good. he creates matchup problems but his defense is a liability.
Dirk still can't play D. Peja has worked on his D and has improved. so when you say 'doesnt play any "D'" you are incorrect.


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## chapi

wow another fanatic, just what this board needs. :uhoh: 



but Dirk is very very good and top 10 easily but in the range of 9-10


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> now peja is better than dirk? LOLLLLLLLLLL peja is 6 10 and grabs like 4 boards a game and doesnt play any "D" and has trouble creating his own shot. He's like the foreign version of reggie miller with more height. Peeps seem to forgot how tall peja is because he plays MUCH SMALLER than he looks. why does peja get a pass but dirk is constantly hated on for his average D" Brand is better than dirk? LOl once brand hits 18 points he's done for the night. Pierce is better than dirk? You mean the paul pierce that will score 30 one night and then shoot 4 for 20 the next night? The same paul pierce that leads the league in turnovers? Man yalls lists suck so bad


Pejas efficiency alone makes him debatable as better than Dirk. He scores considerably more points shooting a considerably better percentage. Dirk getting three more boards a game doesnt make up for that so much that its a given hes better. 

Brand is obviously better statistically, theres only one player in the league better than Brand statistically, and thats KG. 

Dirks a better shooter and rebounder than Pierce. Pierce is a better all around scorer, passer, defender, creator. 

and like I said originally, these are debatable. Dirk is debatably top 10, not definite.


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## MavsPoke

Just to add to the discussion here are the +/- numbers from the last full regular season.

1MIN Garnett 84% +5.8 -17.1 +22.8 
2DAL Nowitzki 79% +11.6 -6.5 +18.0
3SAS Duncan 80% +8.1 -6.2 +14.3
4DAL Finley 67% +11.9 -0.6+12.5
5ORL McGrady 75% +2.9 -8.9 +11.8

Last full regular season's points leaders

1. Tracy McGrady ( Orlando Magic) 75 829 576 2,407 32.1
2. Kobe Bryant ( Los Angeles Lakers)	82	868	601	2,461	30.0
3. Allen Iverson ( Philadelphia 76ers)	82	804	570	2,262	27.6
4. Shaquille O'Neal ( Los Angeles Lakers)	67	695	451	1,841	27.5
5. Paul Pierce ( Boston Celtics)	79	663	604	2,048	25.9
6. Dirk Nowitzki ( Dallas Mavericks)	80	690	483	2,011	25.1
7. Tim Duncan ( San Antonio Spurs)	81	714	450	1,884	23.3
8. Chris Webber ( Sacramento Kings)	67	661	215	1,542	23.0
8. Kevin Garnett ( Minnesota Timberwolves)	82	743	377	1,883	23.0
10. Ray Allen ( Seattle SuperSonics)	76	598	316	1,713	22.5

Last full regual season rebound leaders

1. Ben Wallace ( Detroit Pistons) 73 4.0 11.4 1,126 15.4
2. Kevin Garnett ( Minnesota Timberwolves)	82	3.0	10.5	1,102	13.4
3. Tim Duncan ( San Antonio Spurs)	81	3.2	9.7	1,043	12.9
4. Jermaine O'Neal ( Indiana Pacers)	77	2.6	7.7	796	10.3
5. Brian Grant ( Miami Heat)	82	2.9	7.3	837	10.2
5. Troy Murphy ( Golden State Warriors)	79	2.9	7.3	806	10.2
7. Dirk Nowitzki ( Dallas Mavericks)	80	1.0	8.9	791	9.9
8. Shawn Marion ( Phoenix Suns)	81	2.5	7.1	773	9.5
9. Jerome Williams ( Toronto Raptors)	71	3.3	5.9	650	9.2
10. P.J. Brown ( New Orleans Hornets)	78	3.1	5.9	701	9.0

Last full regular season effeciency leaders

1. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves)
82	32.07
2. Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs)
81	29.94
3. Shaquille O'Neal (Los Angeles Lakers)
67	29.85
4. Tracy McGrady (Orlando Magic)
75	28.80
5. Kobe Bryant (Los Angeles Lakers)
82	28.02
6. Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas Mavericks)
80	27.73
7. Chris Webber (Sacramento Kings)
67	25.04
8. Elton Brand (Los Angeles Clippers)
62	24.42
9. Shawn Marion (Phoenix Suns)
81	24.22
10. Jermaine O'Neal (Indiana Pacers)
77	23.74

Dirk was also 37th in steals, 33rd in blocks.


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## MagnusPinus

He is just not putting on big numbers but in that team u have to sacrifie some shots. Anyway he is still a top 10 Nba player...and has improved the passing skills from last year... When judging a player u have to look at the team he plays


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## sportsfan

> Originally posted by <b>FlyingTiger</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe nope, SG can not carry or make a team


Um, Michael Jordan?


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## Zach

All I know is that Dirk is a Top 5 Player in the league IMO. And then he is WAY better than Peja. Peja sits at the 3 point line the entire game and then cuts to the basket every now and then. Whereas Dirk 'posts up' gets the ball, turns around, shot fakes, and then drives to the hole. Dirk can set shoot and dribble drive(not as good as others though). Plus I watched the WCSF's against Sac-town and he was abusing Peja. He would get the ball and turn around and drain-o and not even jump. So they put Webber on him. Same thing. Then Webber gets hurt so they go back to Peja and poof 43 points.


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## MLKG

Dirk is a top 5 scorer in the league, sure. But there is more to basketball than scoring points. Realistically, he's in the 9-11 range.


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Dirk is a top 5 scorer in the league, sure. But there is more to basketball than scoring points. Realistically, he's in the 9-11 range.


Yup.


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## antibody

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Dirk is a top 5 scorer in the league, sure. But there is more to basketball than scoring points. Realistically, he's in the 9-11 range.


Very true. Plus, he is not what I call a very good defender...adequate at best. I probably wouldn't even have him in the 9-11 range.


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## merc_cuban

> 11 assists in his life, but I see you edited that part out.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, Allan Houston is 1-dimensional as hell. So is Dirk. Okay, he's a decent rebounder, so he's 2-dimensional. He's still a friggin Matador on defense. Ben Wallace is every bit as good on defense as Dirk is on offense, but is limited on offense, does that make HIM a top 10 player?
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't 2 years ago. KG is the MVP this year. Get used to it.


[email protected] big ben he's HIGHLY OVERRATED ON "d" HE'S A GOOD OFF THE BALL DEFENDER BUT HE'S NOT A GOOD ON THE BALL DEFENDER. There's only like 15 to 20 really great defenders in the nba. Shaq doesn't play a LICK OF DEFENSE. He never leaves the paint, cant guard the pick n roll and isn't that great of a rebounder for his size. Every time peeps wanna try to say a maverick isn't this or that or the mavs won't win it's because of "D". But iverson doesn't play no damn d. Peja doesn't play d. Shaq don't play "D". 

Dirk shoots 46 from 2 land and 36 from 3 land for his career
Peja shoots 47 from 2land and 39 from 3 land for his career

so w hat is the big difference there? 

The difference is peja is 6 10 and only grabs 4 to 5 boards a game. Dirk will grab around 9 or 10.

You wanna know what else is important to me? The playoffs and in the playoffs PEJA CHOKES EVERY YEAR. need proof?

Peja's averages 18 a game for his postseason career to go with 5 boards and 1 assist. His shooting also drops. he shoots 42 percent for his postseason careeer from 2 land and 37 from 3 land. He doesn't step his game up when IT COUNTS. 

Dirk on the other hand?

26 points and 11 boards for his POSTSEASON CAREER

Shooting 46 from 2 land and 42 percent from 3 land and 89 from the line. he averages 2 dimes a steal and a block a game


now let's please end all this madness about peja being better than dirk aight? LOl that's just NOT VERY SMART.


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Dirk is a top 5 scorer in the league, sure. But there is more to basketball than scoring points. Realistically, he's in the 9-11 range.



WHICH IS WHY DIRK ALSO GRABS 9 BOARDS AND 3 DIMES TO GO WITH 1 STEAL AND 1 BLOCK A GAME. peeps are acting like dirk is allan houston who will score 30 points from da field and not GRAB ONE REBOUND OR GET ANY DIMES


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Pejas efficiency alone makes him debatable as better than Dirk. He scores considerably more points shooting a considerably better percentage. Dirk getting three more boards a game doesnt make up for that so much that its a given hes better.
> 
> Brand is obviously better statistically, theres only one player in the league better than Brand statistically, and thats KG.
> 
> Dirks a better shooter and rebounder than Pierce. Pierce is a better all around scorer, passer, defender, creator.
> 
> and like I said originally, these are debatable. Dirk is debatably top 10, not definite.


lol pierce leads the nba in turnovers and I"m sorry there's no way in hell you can convince me that pierce is a better scorer than dirk. What does pierce do that dirk don't offensively? He passes slightly better but he also turns it over 4 times a game which is TERRIBLE. His decision making skills are just not that good. He forces shots and doesn't let the game offense come to him. PIERCE IS SHOOTING 40 PERCENT FROM 2 LAND AND 33 FROM 3 LAND BUT HE'S A BETTER SCORER THAN DIRK? that's hilarious. he just shoots more. instead of being OPINIONATED yall need to come with facts. 


THE BRAND COMMENT. So it's ok for you to overlook dirk outrebounding peja but then yall turn around and try to use that rebounding argument against dirk when bringing up brand? GEEZ WHAT A DOUBLE STANDARD. 

brand is putting up 20, 12 boards 4 dimes and 2 blocks
dirk is putting up 22 9 boards 3 dimes 1 steal and a block a game


and once brand gets to 20 points he stops scoring. He can't carry a game offensively like dirk can either


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> lol pierce leads the nba in turnovers and I"m sorry there's no way in hell you can convince me that pierce is a better scorer than dirk. What does pierce do that dirk don't offensively? He passes slightly better but he also turns it over 4 times a game which is TERRIBLE. His decision making skills are just not that good. He forces shots and doesn't let the game offense come to him. PIERCE IS SHOOTING 40 PERCENT FROM 2 LAND AND 33 FROM 3 LAND BUT HE'S A BETTER SCORER THAN DIRK? that's hilarious. he just shoots more. instead of being OPINIONATED yall need to come with facts.


I'm not going to argue with you because you're obviously a Dallas fan and teams fans tend to overrate their players. I'm a Bulls fan, I know first hand. 



> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> and once brand gets to 20 points he stops scoring. He can't carry a game offensively like dirk can either


Let me just ask you this. What about the 12 times this season Brand has scored over 20? Dirk has scored over 20 19 times this season, but remember, Brand missed the whole month of November. That point doesnt seem valid at all. 

and if it was true, all it says is that Brand is way more consistent and Dirk will score 30 one game, and 10 the next. Most teams would rather know what they are getting every game, then take their chances and hope for the good dirk.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> 
> [email protected] big ben he's HIGHLY OVERRATED ON "d" HE'S A GOOD OFF THE BALL DEFENDER BUT HE'S NOT A GOOD ON THE BALL DEFENDER.


The whole "Ben isn't a good man up defender" thing is getting pretty tired.

In the last 2 weeks alone he has held your boyfriend Dirk to 14 points, Duncan to 17, and Garnett to 22 on 8-23 shooting, Including a 1 on 1 blocked shot on Duncan that would have tied the game with a minute left, and a 1 on 1 blocked shot on Garnett that lead to Chauncey's game winner that was waived off.

Iverson doesn't play D? Get real. He's been first in the NBA in steals for a couple years now. He can stay in front of his guy.

Of course Shaq can't guard guys on the perimeter, but he is a MUCH better post defender than Dirk.



> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> 
> WHICH IS WHY DIRK ALSO GRABS 9 BOARDS AND 3 DIMES TO GO WITH 1 STEAL AND 1 BLOCK A GAME.


OMG DuDE shutUp!!?! 3 assists, a steal, and a block a game?!!?

Almost every single player in the NBA can do that in 30 plus minutes a game.

And I hate to break it to you, but rebounds isn't a defensive stat.


----------



## Starbury03

No IRK!!!!!!!!!! for all-star there are two sides of the court.


----------



## compsciguy78

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> 
> lol pierce leads the nba in turnovers and I"m sorry there's no way in hell you can convince me that pierce is a better scorer than dirk. What does pierce do that dirk don't offensively? He passes slightly better but he also turns it over 4 times a game which is TERRIBLE. His decision making skills are just not that good. He forces shots and doesn't let the game offense come to him. PIERCE IS SHOOTING 40 PERCENT FROM 2 LAND AND 33 FROM 3 LAND BUT HE'S A BETTER SCORER THAN DIRK? that's hilarious. he just shoots more. instead of being OPINIONATED yall need to come with facts.
> 
> 
> THE BRAND COMMENT. So it's ok for you to overlook dirk outrebounding peja but then yall turn around and try to use that rebounding argument against dirk when bringing up brand? GEEZ WHAT A DOUBLE STANDARD.
> 
> brand is putting up 20, 12 boards 4 dimes and 2 blocks
> dirk is putting up 22 9 boards 3 dimes 1 steal and a block a game
> 
> 
> and once brand gets to 20 points he stops scoring. He can't carry a game offensively like dirk can either


I have never done a top 10 players, but I think Dirk is more valuable than Pierce. I have to admit I don't watch Pierce ever and don't think I've seen one of his games this year. I watched Pierce in the playoffs a lot last year when he was scorching. That really impressed me and that might have put him in the top 10. The thing is Dirk is in the top 10 without having to have a great playoffs. The guy is going to give you 20 and 10 without doing too much work. Dirk still has the capability to do what Pierce does, but with a taller version. So if Pierce is a lock in top 10, then I would put Dirk in the top 10.


----------



## compsciguy78

The one thing about Dirk that I have noticed is his heart. When he said last year that he didn't want to come back in the playoffs because of his minor injury(forgot what it was...ankle?) I was highly dissapointed. Do you think Magic would of bowed out when his team was in the confernece finals. Last year was a great chance for the Mavs and Dirk was worried about his future. Its understandable but it shows that character difference between guys like Magic and Bird. They would never bow out of a playoff game unless their legs were somehow cut off.


----------



## MLKG

I don't know, I think one look at Grant Hill can kind of discourage guys from doing that type of thing these days. I won't really hold that against him.


----------



## mavsman

> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> The one thing about Dirk that I have noticed is his heart. When he said last year that he didn't want to come back in the playoffs because of his minor injury(forgot what it was...ankle?) I was highly dissapointed. Do you think Magic would of bowed out when his team was in the confernece finals. Last year was a great chance for the Mavs and Dirk was worried about his future. Its understandable but it shows that character difference between guys like Magic and Bird. They would never bow out of a playoff game unless their legs were somehow cut off.


Where did you make up this B.S? Dirk not only wanted to play in
game 6 against the Spurs but he got into an argument with
Nelson about it.

Dirk plays injured all the time so don't throw out a buch of crap
when you have no clue what you are talking about. Let me
guess you heard that B.S. from someone like Barkley.

Nelson talked about the disagreement with Dirk the day of the
game on the radio the next morning.

Why do you think Dirk's number started off so poorly this year. Its
because he has been playing on bad ankles for more than 1/2 of
this season so far. Take a look at his number since the ankles
have mostly healed.


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> Cwebb is ALWAYS hurt, chokes at the line too much and plays worse DEFENSE than dirk. Dirk is top ten EASILY. there's no way in hell you can convince me that there are ten other players in this league who can do the things that dirk can do on the court


OMG what are you talking about. CWebb playing with one leg can beat Dirk. Worse defense than dirk. :laugh: You must be talking about a different CWebb. I give credit to Dirk on offense just like Peja is. But don't try to make him the best player in the league. 

other PF's better than dirk:

J'Oneal
T.Duncan
CWebb
R.Wallace
Brand
KG


----------



## bigbabyjesus

I don't think I'd put Dirk into the top 10. I think these players are better than him, not in order: 

S.O'Neal
T.McGrady
K.Bryant
C.Webber
J.O'Neal
T.Duncan
K.Garnett
A.Iverson
P.Pierce
J.Kidd
V.Carter
R.Allen
E.Brand
R.Wallace

You could make an arguement for some, but most of them are just flat out better players than Dirk.

I could also put Stojackovic on that list, but IMO Dirk is the better of the two on offense, and although there both bad defenders, Peja's is improving.

Dirk is one of the best offensive player's in the league, he can score at will from anywhere on the court, and has amazing size to use. But we all know he does not play any defense. Yes he can score, and rebound, but he probably gives up more points than he scores most of the time.


----------



## antibody

> Originally posted by <b>mavsman</b>!
> Where did you make up this B.S? Dirk not only wanted to play in
> game 6 against the Spurs but he got into an argument with
> Nelson about it.
> 
> Dirk plays injured all the time so don't throw out a buch of crap
> when you have no clue what you are talking about. Let me
> guess you heard that B.S. from someone like Barkley.
> 
> Nelson talked about the disagreement with Dirk the day of the
> game on the radio the next morning.
> 
> Why do you think Dirk's number started off so poorly this year. Its
> because he has been playing on bad ankles for more than 1/2 of
> this season so far. Take a look at his number since the ankles
> have mostly healed.


People here have to realize that this poster rides the Maverick HOG to the nth degree...maybe even Dirk's as well.


----------



## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> The one thing about Dirk that I have noticed is his heart. When he said last year that he didn't want to come back in the playoffs because of his minor injury(forgot what it was...ankle?) I was highly dissapointed. Do you think Magic would of bowed out when his team was in the confernece finals. Last year was a great chance for the Mavs and Dirk was worried about his future. Its understandable but it shows that character difference between guys like Magic and Bird. They would never bow out of a playoff game unless their legs were somehow cut off.


minor injury? where do you guys get this stuff from? Dirk had his knee twisted in game 3 of the spurs series. Dirk is playing through ankle pain right now. He did it last year and the year before. He always plays through injuries.


----------



## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> OMG what are you talking about. CWebb playing with one leg can beat Dirk. Worse defense than dirk. :laugh: You must be talking about a different CWebb. I give credit to Dirk on offense just like Peja is. But don't try to make him the best player in the league.
> 
> other PF's better than dirk:
> 
> J'Oneal
> T.Duncan
> CWebb
> R.Wallace
> Brand
> KG


sheed have never averaged more than 8 boards in a season and is putting up like 18 and 7 and isn't even the best player on his team anymore. Webber is hurt 60 percent of the time. Brand is solid but that's it. Joneal? He plays in the east. Nuff said. Kg and duncan you can make a case for


----------



## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> I don't think I'd put Dirk into the top 10. I think these players are better than him, not in order:
> 
> S.O'Neal
> T.McGrady
> K.Bryant
> C.Webber (hurt too much)
> J.O'Neal (plays in the east)
> T.Duncan
> K.Garnett
> A.Iverson
> P.Pierce (shoots 40 percent from da field leads league in turnovers)
> J.Kidd
> V.Carter (always hurt JUST LIKE RIGHT NOW)
> R.Allen (nope all he does is score not much of anything else)
> E.Brand (lol now you're really stretching it)
> R.Wallace (has never averaged double digits in boards for his career)
> 
> You could make an arguement for some, but most of them are just flat out better players than Dirk.
> 
> I could also put Stojackovic on that list, but IMO Dirk is the better of the two on offense, and although there both bad defenders, Peja's is improving.
> 
> Dirk is one of the best offensive player's in the league, he can score at will from anywhere on the court, and has amazing size to use. But we all know he does not play any defense. Yes he can score, and rebound, but he probably gives up more points than he scores most of the time.


how can you put peja over dirk? he's 6 10 and grabs 4 boards a game. man I GIVE UP these g uys in here don't know sports. They hate on anyone in a mavs jersey and try to debate rediculous illogical bs that no expert, gm or nba scout believes.


----------



## FlyingTiger

lets recall, 2002 USA Men's World Championship. J. oneal, B. wallace and brand played for the US team. who won the MVP for the tournament????????? DIRK NOWITZKI BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Peja is better then dirk?? who won the european player of the year award?? DIRK NOWITZKI!!! 2 years in a row i must add.


----------



## mavsman

> Originally posted by <b>antibody</b>!
> 
> 
> People here have to realize that this poster rides the Maverick HOG to the nth degree...maybe even Dirk's as well.


Once again antibody shows how immature he is.

If correcting wrong information posted here makes me a homer
than I guess you will never be called a homer. Because you have yet
to post anything correctly yet. But you are always good for a
laugh.


----------



## A Seal Clubber

Why is everybody ignoring the postseason numbers Dirk puts up? Some Mavericks fans brought it up but no one is responding to it. Those are some very persuasive stats. 

And once again, I haven't read any responses to the Mavs fans' posts about Peja's postseason stats or his being 6'10" and only grabbing 4-5 rebounds.


----------



## antibody

> Originally posted by <b>mavsman</b>!
> Once again antibody shows how immature he is.
> 
> If correcting wrong information posted here makes me a homer
> than I guess you will never be called a homer. Because you have yet
> to post anything correctly yet. But you are always good for a
> laugh.


According to you right...:laugh: Give me a break. Everyone else is always wrong but you are right. I can't stand posters like you who play the all high and mighty BS. You were not correcting anything...you were stating opinion or what you think went on.


----------



## mavsman

> Originally posted by <b>antibody</b>!
> 
> 
> According to you right...:laugh: Give me a break. Everyone else is always wrong but you are right. I can't stand posters like you who play the all high and mighty BS. You were not correcting anything...you were stating opinion or what you think went on.


Its not my opinion that Don Nelson was on the radio the next day
after the loss in game 6 and said that he and Dirk had a
disagreement about whether or not Dirk should play in the game.
Nelson said that he was not going to allow Dirk to risk his
career for one playoff game.

You can tell the difference between a statement made by Don
Nelson and my opinion can't you. 

And no I think lots of people on this board are right. I just have
yet to read anything intelligent posted by you.


----------



## Mavs Dude

I am one of Dirk's biggest fans but I don't think he is top 5 but he is top 10. I think the top 5 is McGrady,Duncan,KG,AI, and Bryant. The rest of the top 10 would be J. O'Neal,Dirk,Peirce,Peja,and Kidd. I think he could be top 5 if he lets his ankles fully heal and work A LOT on his D. He needs more strength to be able to defend the post up. I think he and Peja are on the same level right now. J. O'Neal is better than Dirk right now.


----------



## mavsman

> Originally posted by <b>Mavs Dude</b>!
> I am one of Dirk's biggest fans but I don't think he is top 5 but he is top 10. I think the top 5 is McGrady,Duncan,KG,AI, and Bryant. The rest of the top 10 would be J. O'Neal,Dirk,Peirce,Peja,and Kidd. I think he could be top 5 if he lets his ankles fully heal and work A LOT on his D. He needs more strength to be able to defend the post up. I think he and Peja are on the same level right now. J. O'Neal is better than Dirk right now.


I agree Dirk can not be top 5 until he greatly improves his defense.
Every summer I hear about he and his German coach working on
one thing or another. One year it was shooting another year it
was rebounding and the last time I read about it they had been
working on passing. 

Dirk has improved on each thing he has worked on with this guy.
Why haven't they worked on his defense yet????

Maybe next summer.


----------



## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>A Seal Clubber</b>!
> Why is everybody ignoring the postseason numbers Dirk puts up? Some Mavericks fans brought it up but no one is responding to it. Those are some very persuasive stats.
> 
> And once again, I haven't read any responses to the Mavs fans' posts about Peja's postseason stats or his being 6'10" and only grabbing 4-5 rebounds.



because it's factual information taht they can't debate. They'd rather just toss out opinions all day


----------



## MLKG

Because nobody is arguing Dirk's merit as an offensive player. For all the points he scores in the playoffs, he's still a sieve on D.

And nobody is saying anything about Peja's rebounding numbers because they don't matter. Peja is a better shooter, Dirk's a better rebounder. I wouldn't call Peja better than Dirk anyway.


----------



## merc_cuban

yet everyone else in here does. PEJA is a better scorer cause he's open most of the time running off of double screens. Dirk torches peeps off of the DRIBBLE. big diff.


----------



## MLKG

No, Peja is a better scorer because he is a better shooter. Don't try to make excuses for everything.


----------



## sportsfan

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> Joneal? He plays in the east. Nuff said.


You do realize that the Mavs play 30 games against teams in the East, right? I guess you should drop the stats from those 30 games from the Nowitski argument then.


----------



## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> No, Peja is a better scorer because he is a better shooter. Don't try to make excuses for everything.


man who is making excuses? You are. Peja averages 17 points for his playoff career and shoots 42 percent dirk averages 26 and shoots 46. THOSE ARE THE FACTS. DEAL WIT IT


----------



## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>sportsfan</b>!
> 
> 
> You do realize that the Mavs play 30 games against teams in the East, right? I guess you should drop the stats from those 30 games from the Nowitski argument then.


which means oneal pads his stats by beating up on eastern conf teams with no big men for 52 games. If he played in the west he wouldn't even be top 15


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> which means oneal pads his stats by beating up on eastern conf teams with no big men for 52 games. If he played in the west he wouldn't even be top 15


Oneals averages vs. Western teams this year: 
21.2 points per game
10.4 rebounds per game
2.8 blocks per game

Anything else you'd like to make up?


----------



## FlyingTiger

get off dirk Defense..they play a zone most of the time anyways. 
Defense is overrated. i dont ever hear people compain about the kings defense.?? so i guess bruce bowen and doug christie is in everybody top 10 right?? btw only 3 players has 100 blks and 100 3rs in a year. dirk, horry and raef.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>FlyingTiger</b>!
> btw only 3 players has 100 blks and 100 3rs in a year. dirk, horry and raef.


Pretty elite guys you're comparing Dirk to there.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> 
> man who is making excuses? You are. Peja averages 17 points for his playoff career and shoots 42 percent dirk averages 26 and shoots 46. THOSE ARE THE FACTS. DEAL WIT IT


:no: 

Even when someone agrees with you you get all defensive. 

What guys have done in the past is irrelevant. The FACT is RIGHT NOW, Peja is the best shooter in the league. How can you argue with that? And enough of the stats, they don't tell the whole story. Peja was never a number 1 option in the playoffs and still has averaged 17 a game. This year as the focus of the offense he is averaging 25 points on 49% shooting. That is TREMENDOUS.


----------



## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> :no:
> 
> Even when someone agrees with you you get all defensive.
> 
> What guys have done in the past is irrelevant. The FACT is RIGHT NOW, Peja is the best shooter in the league. How can you argue with that? And enough of the stats, they don't tell the whole story. Peja was never a number 1 option in the playoffs and still has averaged 17 a game. This year as the focus of the offense he is averaging 25 points on 49% shooting. That is TREMENDOUS.


oh ok so what peja has done for half a season this year negates everything he's done in the playoffs in years past. HE'S DONE IT FOR HALF A YEAR SO THAT MAKES HIM A BETTER SCORER AND PLAYER THAN DIRK EVEN THOUGH HE'S 6 10 AND GRABS LESS REBOUNDS THAN MIKE FIN.


----------



## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Oneals averages vs. Western teams this year:
> 21.2 points per game
> 10.4 rebounds per game
> 2.8 blocks per game
> 
> Anything else you'd like to make up?


that's great man

den
seattle
clips
seattles
kings
lakers
phoenix
portland
minnesota
memphis
dallas
houston
houston
minnesota
san antonio
phoenix


so that's 5 games against the top teams in the west. Cuase you know beating seattle 2 times with no big men (same wit phoenix) is just so dope man.  Like I said he faces non big men in the east and rarely plays against the top big men in the west. and when he does face them he usually gets outplayed 80 percent of the time.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> 
> oh ok so what peja has done for half a season this year negates everything he's done in the playoffs in years past. HE'S DONE IT FOR HALF A YEAR SO THAT MAKES HIM A BETTER SCORER AND PLAYER THAN DIRK EVEN THOUGH HE'S 6 10 AND GRABS LESS REBOUNDS THAN MIKE FIN.


Oh my God. I'm not even bothering with you anymore, you are so immature and defensive. 

READ READ READ READ READ

I AGREED with you that Dirk is better than Peja, all I said was Peja is a better shooter, because right now he IS a better shooter. And YES what he's done this year negates what he's done in the past because players IMPROVE. He's not the same player he was in his rookie year. 

You REALLY need to work on comprehending what you read.

And then you go and make comments about how Jermaine O'Neil (who IS better than Dirk) can't play against western teams when he clearly can and does perform great against the wests top competition. Jermaine is a better back to the basket scorer, he's a better rebounder, and he is a much better defender than Irk will EVER be. Do you ever even watch any teams other than the Mavs?


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Oh my God. I'm not even bothering with you anymore, you are so immature and defensive.
> 
> READ READ READ READ READ
> 
> I AGREED with you that Dirk is better than Peja, all I said was Peja is a better shooter, because right now he IS a better shooter. And YES what he's done this year negates what he's done in the past because players IMPROVE. He's not the same player he was in his rookie year.
> 
> You REALLY need to work on comprehending what you read.
> 
> And then you go and make comments about how Jermaine O'Neil (who IS better than Dirk) can't play against western teams when he clearly can and does perform great against the wests top competition. Jermaine is a better back to the basket scorer, he's a better rebounder, and he is a much better defender than Irk will EVER be. Do you ever even watch any teams other than the Mavs?


Hes just really bias towards Dirk for some reason, so its hard to argue facts with him because his opinions are so strong that facts dont mean anything to him. 

Thats why I decided to stop arguing as well. Just had to pop in with that JO vs. West stat since its so obvious.


----------



## Linde

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh my God. I'm not even bothering with you anymore, you are so immature and defensive.
> 
> READ READ READ READ READ
> 
> I AGREED with you that Dirk is better than Peja, all I said was Peja is a better shooter, because right now he IS a better shooter. And YES what he's done this year negates what he's done in the past because players IMPROVE. He's not the same player he was in his rookie year.
> 
> You REALLY need to work on comprehending what you read.
> 
> And then you go and make comments about how Jermaine O'Neil (who IS better than Dirk) can't play against western teams when he clearly can and does perform great against the wests top competition. Jermaine is a better back to the basket scorer, he's a better rebounder, and he is a much better defender than Irk will EVER be. Do you ever even watch any teams other than the Mavs?


does he still shoot 44% from the field ?
imo disgusting for someone who took only 11 3p this season
dirk is around 50% from inside the 3p line
and don't forget that he has a career year while dirk had injury problems the whole season yet the stats are almost the same
jo is a great player no doubt about it and he would look great in a mavs uni but what has he done so far that makes him better than dirk ?

mavs fans forget it
they will never get any respect 
not flashy enough - no street cred - no commercials


----------



## sportsfan

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> 
> that's great man
> 
> den
> seattle
> clips
> seattles
> kings
> lakers
> phoenix
> portland
> minnesota
> memphis
> dallas
> houston
> houston
> minnesota
> san antonio
> phoenix
> 
> 
> so that's 5 games against the top teams in the west. Cuase you know beating seattle 2 times with no big men (same wit phoenix) is just so dope man.  Like I said he faces non big men in the east and rarely plays against the top big men in the west. and when he does face them he usually gets outplayed 80 percent of the time.


First the problem was playing in the East. Now when we mention the games vs. the West you bring up how weak THEY are. Tell you what, just list the teams that you think it means something to have a good game against, it'll save all this time for you to keep rephrasing your argument.
BTW do you have the stats to support your "outplayed 80% of the time" theory?


----------



## sportsfan

> Like I said he faces non big men in the east


Really? Go look at how many 6' 10" and taller players are in the east. Do you mean top level, Shaq/Duncan type big men? Then say so, learn how to get your point across and people will not have to question what you mean.


----------



## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>sportsfan</b>!
> 
> 
> First the problem was playing in the East. Now when we mention the games vs. the West you bring up how weak THEY are. Tell you what, just list the teams that you think it means something to have a good game against, it'll save all this time for you to keep rephrasing your argument.
> BTW do you have the stats to support your "outplayed 80% of the time" theory?



games verses SECOND TIer WEST CONF teams that don't have ANY BIG MEN whatsoever. Amare been hurt for the suns, seattle has no big men. Dampier aint guarding joneal. cats is jokes man. Yall hate on the mavs every chance you get don't back your arguments with facts and get mad cause I DO. really really immature if you ask me


----------



## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Linde</b>!
> 
> 
> does he still shoot 44% from the field ?
> imo disgusting for someone who took only 11 3p this season
> dirk is around 50% from inside the 3p line
> and don't forget that he has a career year while dirk had injury problems the whole season yet the stats are almost the same
> jo is a great player no doubt about it and he would look great in a mavs uni but what has he done so far that makes him better than dirk ?
> 
> mavs fans forget it
> they will never get any respect
> not flashy enough - no street cred - no commercials


I know man. Any player in a mavs jersey gets overcritiqued and while other players get passes for being weak in alot of the same areas. IT's called "the mavs double standard"


----------



## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh my God. I'm not even bothering with you anymore, you are so immature and defensive.
> 
> READ READ READ READ READ
> 
> I AGREED with you that Dirk is better than Peja, all I said was Peja is a better shooter, because right now he IS a better shooter. And YES what he's done this year negates what he's done in the past because players IMPROVE. He's not the same player he was in his rookie year.
> 
> You REALLY need to work on comprehending what you read.
> 
> And then you go and make comments about how Jermaine O'Neil (who IS better than Dirk) can't play against western teams when he clearly can and does perform great against the wests top competition. Jermaine is a better back to the basket scorer, he's a better rebounder, and he is a much better defender than Irk will EVER be. Do you ever even watch any teams other than the Mavs?


yep I watch alot of games and I also watched JONEAL disappear in the playoffs last year and his team go home in ROUND 1 in a very weak EASTERN CONFERENCE. joneal is not better than dirk. I'm sorry but he's not. You need to work on BASING YOUR ARGUMENTS ON FACTS RATHER THAN YA BI ASSED OPINIONS. [email protected] half a season of playing well WITHOUT WEBBER negating all the times he has choked in the postseason. THAT'S JUST EXTREMELY dumb.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Linde</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> jo is a great player no doubt about it and he would look great in a mavs uni but what has he done so far that makes him better than dirk ?


Something that Mavs fans would know absolutey nothing about. He plays defense.



> mavs fans forget it
> they will never get any respect
> not flashy enough - no street cred - no commercials


:no: 

Isn't this the same Mavs team that the fans voted funnest to watch last year, had the flashiest high power offense, and starred in their own nationally broadcast credit card commercial?

Apparantly being perenially considered a top 5 team in the NBA equates to geting no respect. 

Don't confuse things. The Dallas Mavericks get a ton of respect around the NBA, it's the obnoxious mavs FANS that get no respect here.

Somehow because I think Jermaine O'Neil is better than Dirk that makes me biased? Wow.


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>sportsfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Really? Go look at how many 6' 10" and taller players are in the east. Do you mean top level, Shaq/Duncan type big men? Then say so, learn how to get your point across and people will not have to question what you mean.


you knew exactly what I meant. You just wanna be smart. I notice how you couldn't refutate my arguments that are backed with facts so you had to point of a ver MINUTE DETAIL which is understood by anyone who watches nba ball and understands it. thought that was a given


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Something that Mavs fans would know absolutey nothing about. He plays defense.
> 
> 
> 
> :no:
> 
> Isn't this the same Mavs team that the fans voted funnest to watch last year, had the flashiest high power offense, and starred in their own nationally broadcast credit card commercial?
> 
> Apparantly being perenially considered a top 5 team in the NBA equates to geting no respect.
> 
> Don't confuse things. The Dallas Mavericks get a ton of respect around the NBA, it's the obnoxious mavs FANS that get no respect here.
> 
> Somehow because I think Jermaine O'Neil is better than Dirk that makes me biased? Wow.


no the mavs don't. even when they started 14 and 0 you had everyone saying they sucked.


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## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>FlyingTiger</b>!
> get off dirk Defense..they play a zone most of the time anyways.
> Defense is overrated. i dont ever hear people compain about the kings defense.?? so i guess bruce bowen and doug christie is in everybody top 10 right?? btw only 3 players has 100 blks and 100 3rs in a year. dirk, horry and raef.


defense is overrated? excuse me? that truly is a slap in the face to defensive minded players. in my mind defense is underrated. Your offense can be up and down but you can always play good defense. 

No one is saying defense alone makes you a top 10 player so that bruce bowen, doug christie argument is irrational.


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## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> 
> yep I watch alot of games and I also watched JONEAL disappear in the playoffs last year and his team go home in ROUND 1 in a very weak EASTERN CONFERENCE.


Jermaine averaged 23 and 17 against the Celtics in the playoffs last year.


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## FlyingTiger

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> 
> 
> defense is overrated? excuse me? that truly is a slap in the face to defensive minded players. in my mind defense is underrated. Your offense can be up and down but you can always play good defense.
> 
> No one is saying defense alone makes you a top 10 player so that bruce bowen, doug christie argument is irrational.


KG is condsider great on Defense, i wonder why dirk hit him up for 35 a game in the playoffs and hit up portland for 2 40+ pt games. you can carry your team to victory with your offense. ask AI. you dont ever see somebody taking over the game with there defense. team defense is important, but not just one person.


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>FlyingTiger</b>!
> KG is condsider great on Defense, i wonder why dirk hit him up for 35 a game in the playoffs and hit up portland for 2 40+ pt games. you can carry your team to victory with your offense. ask AI. you dont ever see somebody taking over the game with there defense. team defense is important, but not just one person.


Offense can win games, but defense wins championships.


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## antibody

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Offense can win games, but defense wins championships.


That is why you will not see Dallas win anything with their current roster...:yes:


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>antibody</b>!
> That is why you will not see Dallas win anything with their current roster...:yes:


Yea I know. I find it funny when people use Kings and Mavs as examples of successful teams who dont play defense. Do they realize, they havent won any titles? 

If you look at the title teams in the past 10+ years, they all have good defense. Lakers have the inside presence Shaq whos a pretty good shotblocker and intimidator. Kobe/Fox/Horry/George are all good defenders who can run guys into Shaq. Thats a defensive system that works. Thats 3 titles there. 

Look at the Bulls, Harper/Jordan/Pippen/Rodman were all GREAT defenders. Longley could hold his own. 

Look at the Rockets, they had a system like the Spurs do now built around the great shotblocker Hakeem. 

Obviously the Spurs are a defensive team as well. A succesful defensive system is almost a must in todays game.


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 
> 
> Jermaine averaged 23 and 17 against the Celtics in the playoffs last year.


wwhich wasn't enough they needed more scoring from him and aint get it and went home. star players put their teams on their back. Joneal aint that type of star


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Yea I know. I find it funny when people use Kings and Mavs as examples of successful teams who dont play defense. Do they realize, they havent won any titles?
> 
> If you look at the title teams in the past 10+ years, they all have good defense. Lakers have the inside presence Shaq whos a pretty good shotblocker and intimidator. Kobe/Fox/Horry/George are all good defenders who can run guys into Shaq. Thats a defensive system that works. Thats 3 titles there.
> 
> Look at the Bulls, Harper/Jordan/Pippen/Rodman were all GREAT defenders. Longley could hold his own.
> 
> Look at the Rockets, they had a system like the Spurs do now built around the great shotblocker Hakeem.
> 
> Obviously the Spurs are a defensive team as well. A succesful defensive system is almost a must in todays game.


man i'm so sick of that argument. the spurs can't score on anyone either. They don't have any offense. the bulls were balanced on both sides of the ball. don't mention those wack spurs with them. The rockets were wayyyyyyy better than the spurs and hakeem in his prime is WAYYYYYY BETTER THAN DUNCAN IN HIS PRIME. he had a quadruple double before. 


if dirk didn't get hurt last year the mavs make the finals. So all this defense crap is bs.


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## Crossword

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> if dirk didn't get hurt last year the mavs make the finals. So all this defense crap is bs.


The Spurs were 2-1 against the Mavs with Dirk healthy.


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> man i'm so sick of that argument. the spurs can't score on anyone either. They don't have any offense. the bulls were balanced on both sides of the ball. don't mention those wack spurs with them. The rockets were wayyyyyyy better than the spurs and hakeem in his prime is WAYYYYYY BETTER THAN DUNCAN IN HIS PRIME. he had a quadruple double before.
> 
> 
> if dirk didn't get hurt last year the mavs make the finals. So all this defense crap is bs.


If, but, would have, could have, DIDNT. No love from the record books. 

I never said Spurs were as good as the Bulls or Rockets. I said defensive teams won the title, and thats the truth. Whether or not they had elite offense, they all could play very good defense. 

I disagree that Hakeem in his prime is "way" better than Duncan in his prime. Better maybe, but its definitely debatable. Their accomplishments are nearly identical.


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> The Spurs were 2-1 against the Mavs with Dirk healthy.


and 2-1 without him healthy, Spurs were the obviously better team. Dirk getting hurt just provided Mavs fans with an excuse for the inevitable.


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## Crossword

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> I disagree that Hakeem in his prime is "way" better than Duncan in his prime. Better maybe, but its definitely debatable. Their accomplishments are nearly identical.


Except that Duncan's done it much earlier in his career.


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## Crossword

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> and 2-1 without him healthy, Spurs were the obviously better team. Dirk getting hurt just provided Mavs fans with an excuse for the inevitable.


Yeah. Really guy quit crying, if C-Webb was healthy the Mavs wouldn't have even made it to the WCF. Either way, the Spurs flat-out outplayed the Mavs.

The problem with last year's Spurs team was inexperience. They had an inability to hold leads some games and in others, had to work their way back up to win. This year I highly doubt we'll be seeing much of that. Not saying they're going to win it all this year for sure, but if they won it last year playing like that, then I don't see why they can't again.


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## shyFX325

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Duncan
> Garnett
> Shaq
> Jermaine
> Brand
> Shareef
> Randolph
> Dirk
> 
> Marion is close.
> 
> Not quite as exclusive a club as you think.


shareef a top 10 player????

Zach Randolph??? the guy has been good for like 6 months of actual in season time. Before the end of last year not many people outside of the blazer forum even remembered who drafted him... not even an allstar game.... you need to be playing this well a lil longer to get on my top 10

the unaminous 5 (on everyones 5 in some ort of order)

shaq
td
kobe
tmac
kg

this is where everyones list starts to differ....

i like the mavs and dirk so i have him at 6th
AI
kidd
cwebb (anyone who thinks cwebb is better than dirk needs to think again.... dirk always lights up the kings, nearly as much as he lights up the twolves)
pierce
blah blah blah
yada yada


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## MLKG

Dear Lord why do Dallas fans have such a hard time READING.

Those players I listed are guys averaging 20 and 9.

READ READ READ READ READ


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## Crossword

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Dear Lord why do Dallas fans have such a hard time READING.
> 
> Those players I listed are guys averaging 20 and 9.
> 
> READ READ READ READ READ


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## merc_cuban

hmmmmm since this thread has been made dirk has a 43 point and a 40 point outburst


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## MLKG

And he still can't play D.

But he HAS been unbelievable with the ball in his hands.


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> And he still can't play D.
> 
> But he HAS been unbelievable with the ball in his hands.


he played "D" tonight in the fourth or did you watch the game? 2 key blocks a few key steals and alot of key rebounds. Peeps don't watch games but run their mouths as usual.


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## MLKG

No he didn't.

The Pistons big guys combined for 45 points which is about 20 points higher than what they usually do.


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## merc_cuban

and that was with fortson on campbell, walker on williamson. Dirk guarded big ben most of the night. he had 10 points which is around his average. stop looking at boxscores and WATCH A GAME


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## FlyingTiger

Defense is wayoverrated..pistons had good defense right? why couldnt they stop dirk from 40?? humm....


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>FlyingTiger</b>!
> Defense is wayoverrated..pistons had good defense right? why couldnt they stop dirk from 40?? humm....


and why did they allow the mavs to shoot 56 percent against them? This is the 4th best "D" in the league? man. I woulda thought the mavs would have only scoredl ike 70 or something against em.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> and that was with fortson on campbell, walker on williamson. Dirk guarded big ben most of the night. he had 10 points which is around his average. stop looking at boxscores and WATCH A GAME


Exactly my point. Nobody on Dallas help anyone in the paint. If Dirk is going to start at center he has to help with that interior D.

And as for Detroit's defense, they kept Dallas away from the rim, Dirk and Nash just went crazy from the perimeter, not much you can do to defend that


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly my point. Nobody on Dallas help anyone in the paint. If Dirk is going to start at center he has to help with that interior D.
> 
> And as for Detroit's defense, they kept Dallas away from the rim, Dirk and Nash just went crazy from the perimeter, not much you can do to defend that


since when is 3 big men combining for 45 points bad? They kept the mavs away from the rim? Since when have the mavs been a team that just slashes to the rim every play. And the pistons didn't defende the pick n roll and pick n pop that well at all. exactly what i'm talking about. You make excuses for why the pistons gave up 112 to the mav but then look for nitty gritty details to use against the mavs even though THEY WON THE GAME


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## sportsfan

> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> 
> you knew exactly what I meant. You just wanna be smart. I notice how you couldn't refutate my arguments that are backed with facts so you had to point of a ver MINUTE DETAIL which is understood by anyone who watches nba ball and understands it. thought that was a given


Sorry but I didn't think a comment about the talent a player faces was a minute detail. THIS is a minute detail- what the hell does "refutate" mean?


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## merc_cuban

> Originally posted by <b>sportsfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry but I didn't think a comment about the talent a player faces was a minute detail. THIS is a minute detail- what the hell does "refutate" mean?


man i was typing at like 2 am in the morning. the word is refute


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## benfica

*Dirk outplays*

all the top 5 players mentioned, including KG. Dirk's defense is not great but not that bad. He is one of the few guys in the league that has guarded Centers, PF, SF and SG. How many players can do that.

In the playoffs he elevates his game, if can stay injury free the Mavs will be dangerous come playoff time.


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## reHEATed

*Re: Dirk outplays*



> Originally posted by <b>benfica</b>!
> all the top 5 players mentioned, including KG. Dirk's defense is not great but not that bad. He is one of the few guys in the league that has guarded Centers, PF, SF and SG. How many players can do that.
> 
> In the playoffs he elevates his game, if can stay injury free the Mavs will be dangerous come playoff time.


how does Dirk outplay KG....:sigh:


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## JNice

*Re: Dirk outplays*



> Originally posted by <b>benfica</b>!
> all the top 5 players mentioned, including KG. Dirk's defense is not great but not that bad. He is one of the few guys in the league that has guarded Centers, PF, SF and SG. How many players can do that.
> 
> In the playoffs he elevates his game, if can stay injury free the Mavs will be dangerous come playoff time.


Dirk does not outplay KG. And I have seen KG guard every position on the court.


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## merc_cuban

*Re: Re: Dirk outplays*



> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> how does Dirk outplay KG....:sigh:



torched him playoffs 2 years ago (wolves got swept
torched him last year (didnt score less than 30 in any game)

there you have it. case closed.


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## reHEATed

*Re: Re: Re: Dirk outplays*



> Originally posted by <b>merc_cuban</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> torched him playoffs 2 years ago (wolves got swept
> torched him last year (didnt score less than 30 in any game)
> 
> there you have it. case closed.


lol...KG is gonna win MVP this year..Dirk is not close to his level this year


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## merc_cuban

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Dirk outplays*



> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> lol...KG is gonna win MVP this year..Dirk is not close to his level this year


never said kg wasn't an mvp candidate. never said dirk will win the mvp. But kg can't guard dirk. 

"The two hardest matchups for my team are shaq and dirk nowitski" Twolves head coach flip saunders

*shrugs*


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## MLKG

*Re: Dirk outplays*



> Originally posted by <b>benfica</b>!
> 
> He is one of the few guys in the league that has guarded Centers, PF, SF and SG.


This is true, but the fact remains he doesn't guard any of them well.


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## panthera_pardus

You Mavs fans should try to keep this argument away from becoming a KG vs. Dirk thread...otherwise you guys will make yourselves look like fools.


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## FlyingTiger

how is comparing KG vs Dirk dumb? how far has KG gone in the playoffs?


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## chapi

i know merc is often annoying in his love for the mavs and biasnes (is that a word??)


BUT HE IS RIGHT ON MANY POINTS IN THIS THREAD

1. dirk is easily better than pierce 
what has pierce proven?? that he can't lead a team without walker.

2. Defence is overrated. if he means individual defence hes right. you wont win with 1 excelent defender and 4 guys who dont defend at all. but u win with 5 average defenders that play good team defence (of course they have to be good offensive players )

u never see games ending 0:0 (even the worst games are around 50:51  ) so u always have to outscore your opponents too. 


3. Mavs don't get the credit.
But that is because they look all like idiots....... nash with his hair, nowitzki with his hair, fat fortson with his hair, josh with his head band, walker with his shimmy shake, bardley well hes just bradley.

No fancy bands / tatoos. no rap cd's no own clothing lines, no street cred..




ok to sum this up. dirk is the best offensive player in the game. good rebounder with average/decent defence.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>chapi</b>!
> 
> 
> Defence is overrated. if he means individual defence hes right. you wont win with 1 excelent defender and 4 guys who dont defend at all. but u win with 5 average defenders that play good team defence (of course they have to be good offensive players )


But if you play great team defense you don't even need to be a good offensive team.

See: San Antonio Spurs.


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## reHEATed

defense is half of the game...how it is ovverated...defense wins championships(spurs)...great offenses with no D dont(Mavs)


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## chapi

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> defense is half of the game...


Exactly.
I just said that INDIVIDUAL DEFENCE is overrated
But offence is the other half
you can keep your opponents to 40pts but that means nothing if u only score 39........
offence=defence 
one defensive player don't make a defensive team. one offensive player don't make a good offensive team..
ballance wins championships not defence and not offense


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## MLKG

Yes, individual defense is overrated, but a center is supposed to be the staple of a squads team defense and can make an entire team better at defense by being a force in the middle. If Dirk is going to play center, he has to get better at controlling the paint.

If Dallas can get a good defensive center though, all of Dirk's defensive short comings will start to fade because a good center helps an entire team play better defense.


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## chapi

i think they should have signed Oliver Miller, he's been playing preaty good for the wolves. hes definatly better than fortson. they are both fat but miller is a bit taller (or??)


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