# Off-Season Plan 2009



## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

The year is over and it is time to start breaking out those ideas for what should be done to improve this team over the offseason. Here are my suggestions....

1.) Trade David Lee and the bird-rights to Chris Wilcox to the Washington Wizards for their lottery pick and Etan Thomas. Why make this deal? We need to establish a young core of players that will inevitability make this team contenders. As good as Lee is, he does not have the ability to carry the team and is more a complimentary player than anything else. The Wizards are likely to have a high enough pick where we will be able to get a top 3 pick in the draft. I think they would be more interested in the deal since they are clearly more interested in winning now, having committed to Flip Saunders.

With that pick (assuming it is not the top pick in the draft) I would select *Ricky Rubio*.

2.) Hope to God we get the no.1 overall pick to select Blake Griffin.

3.) Sign and trade Nate Robinson along with Jared Jefferies and Wilson Chandler to whoever, for the rights to Gerald Henderson and filler.

4.) Using the trade exceptions from making such a deal to bring in Channing Frye. Using part of the MLE to sign Chris Mihm, Damon Jones and Qyntel Woods.

*PROJECTED ROSTER*
*Starters*
Ricky Rubio...PG
Larry Hughes...SG
Danilo Gallinari...SF
Al Harrington...PF
Chris Mihm...C
*Rotation Players*
Chris Duhon...PG
Gerald Henderson..SG
Qyntel Woods...F
Blake Griffin...PF
Channing Frye...C
*Bench Fodder*
Damon Jones...PG
Quentin Richardson...G/F
Patrick Ewing Jr....F
Etan Thomas...C
Eddy Curry...C
(player to be named)


Obviously this is pure conjecture but I think it is necessary to think of methods "outside the box" to improve this team. I personally am not sold on this 2010 plan and prefer not to waste time hoping for our savior to walk through the Garden doors. A better bet would be us being more proactive in our approach to improving this team via the draft. Although there are not many headline names involved in it this year, there are a few players (some of which I just suggested) that can dramatically change our circumstances in the future. Cutting cost and acquiring players to build a foundation on, should be the way to go. To that end, these trades accomplish that and augment the team with veteran players that alleviate some of the burden the rookies are likely to face.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*Nice group of players however....*the 2009-10 NBA season will be ten times better than this season....with all the FA's going after TOP-PAPER for their future... 

The Knicks roster will have to be tough to survive next season....I also see alot of the 2008 draft-class making a name next season.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Lets see what we have to offer this offseason to become a .500 team in the 2009-10 season (41-41). 

*A MIRACLE....*like the JailBlazzers received after their last 33-win season with Zach Randolph....or like the Phoenix Suns received after their last 29-win season with Marbury. 
Do Donnie Walsh have friends like the Ainge & Mchale friendship?


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*Well well well.....*another 20 to 30 win season from the NBA's Top-3 big market teams (Knicks). 

We started this season with 4 bonafide Starters (Nate, Chandler, Lee, and Zach) and a helluv a guard bench (Marbury, Duhon, Collins, Crawful, Q.Rich, Jefferies, and we were in need of an early trade for a bigman off the bench).

My (Kiya) lineup, rotation, and substitutions, has always been different than that of Dantoni's this season....I agree 100% at bringing Marbury off the bench and DNP Marbury the first 5 games (not the entire season that was personal). 
Although, the trade of Crawful was late and should've been done in the offseason it was the brightest and wisest move done by management this season. 

We ended this 2008-9 season as a "no-defensive" team inwhich Knick-opositions (even their rookies) will be looking to have their best performance, their best season-highs, or their best career-highs when playing against us Knicks. 

We do have an upcomming Star-Player on our roster in Wilson Chandler.
We will lose players Nate & Lee whom 2 years ago energy formed to be one of the toughest hustling tandem off the bench in the NBA. 

We do have ending contract players to trade this offseason in: 

PG-Duhon ($6M) 
SG-Hughes ($13.6M)
SF-Q.Rich ($9.3M)
SF-Harrington ($10M) 
Mobley ($9.5M career injury)

O.K. their salaries are large....I know, I know, real Fukkking LARGE....salaries only starters are supposed to get. 
Well, how high should our Starting-5 lineup receive....over or under $57.5M)? 

We also have Curry ($21.7M) 2 year contract 
and Jefferies ($13.2) 2 year contract up for grabs too. 
I know, I know....these two salaries are supposed to belong to players that are part of a 7-8-Man rotation. 

*Last but not least we have 2 rookie contracts to make 9-Knick Players under contract before the 2009 draft night.....*in Gallo (bust or not) and Wilson Chandler whom the only numbers which are important is what is expected from next season in scoring (15 to 20), rebounds (4 to 7), assist (3 to 5), Steals (1), Blks (2), TO (2), Fouls (4), to average each game. 
*Did Wilson Chandler second season performance show he could produce these numbers in his third season???*


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

You'd want to start ricky rubio, but have blake griffin come off the bench?

I'd do it the other way around, personally.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*Lee and Nate will search for winning teams that will give them a contract that the Knicks 2010 plan will not match.* 
Lee and Nate already built up a huge fan-base at the NBA Store in the city, adding another city with ours is a wise money-making decision. 

Two years ago after a 33-win season we were talking about how deep and strong the depth of our Knick bench was. 
Last year we all was talking about what players are Dantoni's type of players. 
This year we are disgusted and want to strip the whole team clean....*Except for Gallo...*


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

The first round of this playoff could be deadly if their are 2 or more teams getting swept....this could lead to teams opening up the trading-market big-time this offseason. 

Teams with no interest in the 2010 FA's will be trading their ending contract players to teams with a 2010 plan. 
And teams with 2010 Star FA's (Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Dirk, Joe Johnson, Prince, and Ginobli) will be open minded this offseason to trade for players with ending contracts. 

*Where does this put our Knicks?* in a bad situation from having another losing season with high contract players whom trade value went down even lower than last offseason (no matter their ending contract) b/c of being apart of another losing season team. 
That is the price we paid for wanting a 8th draft pick rather than go to the playoffs settling for the 14th or 15th draft pick. 

*The Knicks making the Postseason would've put a big difference on the outlook of our ending-contract players "Trade-Value"... 
LET'S GO KNICKS *


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Did somebody say Qyntel Woods lol? According to wikipedia(i didn't look too far), he was suspended by the Greek league for marijuana a couple years ago, he now plays in Poland.

If Rubio or Jennings is on board I think the Knicks should take them. If not it might be a better idea to package the pick with either Curry or Jefferies for Salary relief or young talents.

I would also look to trade Galinari. Wilson Chandler seems to have the SF position locked down and theres no way he moves to the 4 stuff where David Lee is. Despite the injuries I think he still has a lot of value since teams are intrigued at his ability and youth.

And call me crazy but I think Eddy Curry is due for a bounce back year next year. He has had a rough year off the court and perhaps it is finally time he turns it around. If he comes to camp relatively in shape you will at least get a serviceable center out of him.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> You'd want to start ricky rubio, but have blake griffin come off the bench?
> 
> I'd do it the other way around, personally.



That was something of a mental boo-boo. I initially thought it would be better to bring Griffin off of the bench because of his energy and hustle abilities, which could be the spark off the bench that would be missing with Robinson gone. I also thought that Harrington would ***** about coming off the bench. If that really was the case, he wouldn't be difficult to trade with the way he has played and his expiring contract.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> Did somebody say Qyntel Woods lol? According to wikipedia(i didn't look too far), he was suspended by the Greek league for marijuana a couple years ago, he now plays in Poland.
> 
> If Rubio or Jennings is on board I think the Knicks should take them. If not it might be a better idea to package the pick with either Curry or Jefferies for Salary relief or young talents.
> 
> ...


I never said Qyntel Woods was a boyscout. I did happen to suggest that the guy is more than a servicable role layer in this league and might actually be better than Quentin Richardson off the bench.

Under no circumstances would I trade Rubio or Jennings, just for an opportunity to move Eddy Curry/ Jared Jefferies. Draft picks are how you build winning teams in this league.

I'd also consider trading Wilson Chandler before Gallo, although I would give up Gallo in the right deal. Chandler has been unimpressive to me and likely won't be much more than a role player. What we need now aren't role players but foundation players. I think Gallo may be that if healthy but I don't think that will be the case throughout his career. 

Hopefully Curry does bounce back so we can trade him. He is not a fit on this team but at the same time is too good to give up for B.S. I personally would be interested in pursing a deal with the Grizzlies to reshuffle our deck a little bit. Curry, Jefferies and Richardson for Milicic, Jaric and Buckner works. The financial commitments are relatively even as well as the talent.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Different idea, same concept....

*Knicks Trade(to Grizzlies):*
Eddy Curry...C
Jared Jefferies...F
Quentin Richardson...F

*Knicks Recieve:*
Darko Milicic...F/C
Marko Jaric...G/F
Greg Buckner...SG

_I think this trade is a lateral move but gives both teams players who better fit what they do at no loss of financial flexibility or talent; the Knicks add more backcourt depth and uptempo players, while the Grizzlies get the kind of low post scorer that can help open up the game for perimeter players like Mayo and Gay._

*Knicks Trade (to Nets):*
Larry Hughes...SG
Al Harrington...F
Greg Buckner...SG

*Knicks Recieve:*
Vince Carter...SG
Trenton Hassell...SG

_Nets are looking to cut costs and this move allows them to do so while remaining competitive. They also add better depth, which seemed to be an issue for them at times this season._

*Knicks Trade (4-way with Raptors, Bulls and Wizards):*
David Lee...F/C (sign and trade)
Nate Robinson...PG (sign and trade)
Wilson Chandler...G/F 
Future 1st round draft pick (conditional)

*(Bulls get Antawn Jamison; Wizards get Chris Bosh, Tim Thomas and Kirk Hinrich; Raptors get Knick package)

*Knicks Recieve:*
Wizards draft pick (use for Ricky Rubio)
Darius Songalia...PG
Etan Thomas...F/C

_Chris Bosh is unhappy, and likely will demand a trade. I can't think of a better package the Raptors would want for him than what we would be offering. Not only do they get a fairly good supporting cast but they have the added benefit of having them under contract and don't have to risk losing their players. 

I could see the Wizards wanting Bosh because they are interesting in winning now and is an upgrade over Antawn Jamison. They also add Kirk Hinrich who is a HUGE upgrade for their roster since Arenas sucks as a PG but is great as scorer; Hinrich allows Arenas to do what he does and not be a defensive liability.

The Bulls make the deal because they needed an upgrade over the PF position and don't need Hinrich anymore._


I'd pray for the no.1 pick and would get it because this is my pipedream. I'd select Blake Griffin obviously. I'd also buy the Suns lottery pick for $3 million to select Gerald Henderson. I'd sign Channing Frye to half the MLE and Patrick Ewing Jr. to a minimum contract. Raja Bell would be an awesome fit, so Trenton Hassell would be traded for him because I say so. Here's what the roster would look like....

*PROJECTED ROSTER
Starters*
Ricky Rubio...PG
Raja Bell...SG
Vince Carter...SF
Blake Griffin...PF
Darko Milicic...C
*Rotation*
Chris Duhon...PG
Gerald Henderson...SG
Danilo Gallinari...F
Darius Songalia...F/C
Channing Frye...F/C
*Bench Fodder*
Marko Jaric...G/F
Patrick Ewing Jr....G/F
Etan Thomas...F/C


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Here's a crazy idea...

Al Harrington for Carlos Boozer in a sign-and-trade deal.
David Lee (sign-and-trade) for Tyson Chandler, Julian Wright and the Hornets' 2010 First Round Pick
Draft Ty Lawson

PG: Chris Duhon...Ty Lawson
SG: Wilson Chandler...Larry Hughes
SF: Danilo Gallinari...Julian Wright...Quentin Richardson
PF: Carlos Boozer...Jared Jeffries
C: Tyson Chandler...Eddy Curry

Hughes, Mobley, Richardson and Duhon then all come off the books, so the Knicks have cap space to build around Lawson, Chandler, Gallinari, Boozer and Chandler.

The trick will be unloading Curry and Jeffries.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Whew.....*

I think the Knicks need to concentrate on the draft and acquiring talented young guys. I too am praying for the #2 pick, not because of any reason other than I believe Rubio will be a more influential pro than Griffin. Griffin is crazy athletic and a very fine passer. I don't think he will be the monster on the boards that most do and I have not seen much offense outside of 6 feet. Maybe he has it, but I haven't seen it. His overpowering tactics simply won't net the same results in the NBA. Getting #2 takes the hand wringing out of the decision since Rubio is the consensus #2 if Blake is #1. I do not trade Gallo or Chandler. Chandler can indeed play the 2 and Gallo can play the 3. In a few years Gallo will move to the 4 if necessary. That would give them three potential allstars all of whom could be high allstar level. No matter if we get Rubio or Griffin, we should be able to obtain another first rounder via trade/buy. There is enough depth to secure another starter. Trading other assets should yield the remaining piece. We would have limited depth but we could fill out the roster with low money signees such as PE2. Best part about this is that is doesn't jeopardize the chance to sign at least one major FA should we get the chance. A lot can and should happen this year.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Damian Necronamous said:


> Here's a crazy idea...
> 
> Al Harrington for Carlos Boozer in a sign-and-trade deal.
> David Lee (sign-and-trade) for Tyson Chandler, Julian Wright and the Hornets' 2010 First Round Pick
> ...


I like the two first moves; very creative thinking. I just don't agree with drafting Ty Lawson considering how high we'll likely be selecting in the draft. If he's all that is available to us then I strongly suggest using Lee as bait to move up.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Whew.....*



alphaorange said:


> I think the Knicks need to concentrate on the draft and acquiring talented young guys. I too am praying for the #2 pick, not because of any reason other than I believe Rubio will be a more influential pro than Griffin. *Griffin is crazy athletic and a very fine passer. I don't think he will be the monster on the boards that most do and I have not seen much offense outside of 6 feet. Maybe he has it, but I haven't seen it. His overpowering tactics simply won't net the same results in the NBA.* Getting #2 takes the hand wringing out of the decision since Rubio is the consensus #2 if Blake is #1. I do not trade Gallo or Chandler. Chandler can indeed play the 2 and Gallo can play the 3. In a few years Gallo will move to the 4 if necessary. That would give them three potential allstars all of whom could be high allstar level. No matter if we get Rubio or Griffin, we should be able to obtain another first rounder via trade/buy. There is enough depth to secure another starter. Trading other assets should yield the remaining piece. We would have limited depth but we could fill out the roster with low money signees such as PE2. Best part about this is that is doesn't jeopardize the chance to sign at least one major FA should we get the chance. A lot can and should happen this year.


I'm unsure about Griffin's offensive ability as a star but what I am fairly high on is his defensive intensity. Although the no.1 overall pick is very high to draft a defensive player, Griffin is unique because he's not an offensive liability; he would add that initimation factor we been missing in the paint. I think both he and Rubio would be an excellent compliment for us and might be a possibility to have both with the Wizards looking to veteran players. I'm thinking something of a John Stockon-Karl Malone part II.

P.S., if we're going to be playing Wilson Chandler at the 2, I think we might as well go get Gerald Henderson who will likely be a better role player.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

TwinkieFoot, what's up with those Wizard's trades. You think Washington will give up their top 5 pick for backups? Nate Rob and Lee would both be in terrible situations, because they won't be starting.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

TwinkieFoot said:


> I never said Qyntel Woods was a boyscout. I did happen to suggest that the guy is more than a servicable role layer in this league and might actually be better than Quentin Richardson off the bench.
> 
> Under no circumstances would I trade Rubio or Jennings, just for an opportunity to move Eddy Curry/ Jared Jefferies. Draft picks are how you build winning teams in this league.


That's why I said *"If not"*. If you get Rubio or Jennings you draft them and make either one of them your PG for the future. If both aren't on board and you end up with a 7-9 pick, there isn't anyone that is overly intriguing to the Knicks at the moment.

If Qyntel Woods can't stay out of trouble I don't see how he can be a role player in the NBA. I mean, you don't think teams have been giving him chances? The guy blew it because he can't stay off narcotics or fighting dogs or drunk driving. And btw, I looked up his stats even more, when he wasn't high, he was averaging pedestrian numbers in Europe. Not exactly tearing it up in these less competitive league.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Chan said:


> TwinkieFoot, what's up with those Wizard's trades. You think Washington will give up their top 5 pick for backups? Nate Rob and Lee would both be in terrible situations, because they won't be starting.


Toronto would be the team getting Nate Robinson and Lee in addition to Wilson Chandler, Chris Wilcox, a 1st round pick and $3 million cash from the Knicks. The Wizards would be getting Chris Bosh, Kirk Hinrich and Tim Thomas; the former two clearly being starters in this league (the Bulls get Antawn Jamison).


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> That's why I said *"If not"*. If you get Rubio or Jennings you draft them and make either one of them your PG for the future. If both aren't on board and you end up with a 7-9 pick, there isn't anyone that is overly intriguing to the Knicks at the moment.
> 
> If Qyntel Woods can't stay out of trouble I don't see how he can be a role player in the NBA. I mean, you don't think teams have been giving him chances? The guy blew it because he can't stay off narcotics or fighting dogs or drunk driving. And btw, I looked up his stats even more, when he wasn't high, he was averaging pedestrian numbers in Europe. Not exactly tearing it up in these less competitive league.


Then if we can't select Blake, Jennings, Rubio, Harden or Hill, then we shouldn't bother keeping the pick; you are right, move Curry/Jefferies with it.

Qyntel Woods was a never big stat grabber but managed to do everything and do it adequately. As much as he isn't lighting it up abroad, he's in an Italian league that has been producing some solid NBA players as of late and is averaging 14ppg, 5rpg and 2spg in just 25mpg. By contrast, Josh Childress is averaging just 8.8ppg, 4.5rpg, and 0.9spg in the Euro league over 23mpg; 14.5ppg,3.8rpg and 1.5spg in the Greek league over 25mpg. You want to suggest to me that Josh Childress can't be an impact player in the NBA.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

TwinkieFoot said:


> Then if we can't select Blake, Jennings, Rubio, Harden or Hill, then we shouldn't bother keeping the pick; you are right, move Curry/Jefferies with it.
> 
> Qyntel Woods was a never big stat grabber but managed to do everything and do it adequately. As much as he isn't lighting it up abroad, he's in an Italian league that has been producing some solid NBA players as of late and is averaging 14ppg, 5rpg and 2spg in just 25mpg. By contrast, Josh Childress is averaging just 8.8ppg, 4.5rpg, and 0.9spg in the Euro league over 23mpg; 14.5ppg,3.8rpg and 1.5spg in the Greek league over 25mpg. You want to suggest to me that Josh Childress can't be an impact player in the NBA.


He's actually averaging 12 points, 3 reb a game in Poland after getting released by that Italian team for undisclosed reasons. But you're right, perhaps the game is different there and that's why his numbers aren't spectacular, however, one has to wonder why such an impact player keeps bouncing around Europe without finding a team that will keep him. I don't see him making it to the NBA and it is unwise for the Knicks to take on another red flag personality after finally getting rid of some of their own in the last couple of years.


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## NorthSideHatrik (Mar 11, 2003)

Here's a few ideas. and i honestly you guys should forget about the 2010 master plan. Its a long shot.

1- Kirk Hinrich could probably be had for little more than expiring contract. They just have too many people who demand salary. I have a feeling they'd prefer to keep Gordon. Rose is going to have to get paid eventually too. Salmons is only under contract for one more year i think. Decisions need to be made and i think they're regretting paying kirk.

2- Ray Felton is probably still available and I have a feeling Duhon would be a good guy to back up Augustin... Not that, thats enough to get Felton, but its a start.

3- Kirilenko? seems like another one where a salary dump plus a prospect or SG would be enough.

4- Kaman? From the sounds of the clippers board just about anyone could be had.

5- Richard Jefferson? Is he still available?

If your willing to sign and trade Robinson and Lee, move a lot of expirings, maybe package some draft picks/prospects i bet you could end up with at least three of those 5 names, maybe more.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Kirk Hinrich is making 10 mil. HELL NO.

Ray Felton is good.

Kirilenko? ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Kaman? Are you kidding me?

Richard Jefferson. Why trade either lee OR robinson for him? 

You're not a knicks fan, are you?


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## NorthSideHatrik (Mar 11, 2003)

No i'm not a knicks fan. I'm just throwing out of ideas based on whats available. And i noticed yesterday that Felton was a Free Agent now. Whats wrong with Kirilenko or Kaman? Kirilenko as a starter is a 15ppg 7.5rpg 2 block SF. And he's plenty big enough to play PF in a small ball line-up. Kaman is 7 footer who's not a stiff with actual post skills and those are damn hard to find. 

And dont hate on RJ. He's overpaid for sure but he can play. I'd take RJ over anyone on your roster right now. He's almost a 20ppg 5rpg 2.5apg SF. He's only 28. He's exactly in the middle of the middle of the pack (16th)(carmelo is 15th) as far as FG% among SFs. He shot almost 40% on 3s this year. He played 82 games each of the last two seasons so he's healthy now despite two bad years in his past. He's also a model citizen. If i was building or rebuilding a team i'd take him if the price was right for sure.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> He's actually averaging 12 points, 3 reb a game in Poland after getting released by that Italian team for undisclosed reasons. But you're right, perhaps the game is different there and that's why his numbers aren't spectacular, however, one has to wonder why such an impact player keeps bouncing around Europe without finding a team that will keep him. I don't see him making it to the NBA and it is unwise for the Knicks to take on another red flag personality after finally getting rid of some of their own in the last couple of years.


No, actually Qyntel Woods is averaging 17ppg, 5.6rpg, 1.8spg on 63% shooting from 2-point land and 42.9% from 3 point land. The stats you gave were from the Euroleague which was only 5 games.

http://www.eurobasket.com/player.asp?Cntry=POL&PlayerID=49047


Although he's played on 3 different Italian teams since he's been abroad, Woods has played with only one Polish team; maybe he's found some stability. In either case, Qyntel Woods would be a very solid role player in the NBA.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

NorthSideHatrik said:


> Here's a few ideas. and i honestly you guys should forget about the 2010 master plan. Its a long shot.
> 
> 1- Kirk Hinrich could probably be had for little more than expiring contract. They just have too many people who demand salary. I have a feeling they'd prefer to keep Gordon. Rose is going to have to get paid eventually too. Salmons is only under contract for one more year i think. Decisions need to be made and i think they're regretting paying kirk.
> 
> ...



I like some of these ideas: Felton, Hinrich and Kaman. Each of these 3 guys fill needs for the Knicks and are relatively young (with the exception of Hinrich who is 28 years old already). They each will demand a great deal of money but justify the sacrifice with their heady play.

I'm not a fan of these ideas: Jefferson and Kirilenko. Both guys are players that are better utilized on winning teams than on a team looking to rebuild. Their contracts also make it very difficult to justify bringing them in, in our situation.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> Kirk Hinrich is making 10 mil. HELL NO.
> 
> Ray Felton is good.
> 
> ...


Kirk Hinrich has a front-loaded contract, which is very valuable given 2010. By the time that offseason rolls around, he'll be making just $9 million. I personally love his game and what he can do in this system. Kirk would definitely be an upgrade over anything Duhon does for us and also is big enough to slide over to the 2 spot and be effective there defensively. 

Do you realize that Chris Kaman is just 26 years old and already a double-double player at 7 ft? The guy can get out on the break, which clearly makes him a fit for this team. I would even say that he'd be an upgrade over David Lee defensively and yet can still do everything else Lee does offensively and on the boards.

I agree with you about Kirilenko though. Overpaid and overrated.

Somewhat there with you about Richard Jefferson. The guy is a fit but is vastly overpaid and too old for what we'll be doing once we enter the final stages of our rebuilding process.

Otherwise though, I feel like these ideas were excellent so just layoff the guy. He clearly knows what he is talking about.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> Kirk Hinrich is making 10 mil. HELL NO.
> 
> Ray Felton is good.
> 
> ...



I would personally shoot Walsh if he got any of the players above....alot of prime NBA players can not deal with New York media limelight or the New York Knick-Fans emotional Boos after consistent poor performances. 
Star players like Amare, Carmelo, T-Mac, Carter, Ben Gordon, and Nash are not built strong enough to endure the up and down response they will receive from the Gardens Knick Fans. 

Knick-Fans has never been nice to high-price veteran players that come here since Truck Robinson, Webster, Lucas, Charles Smith, Houston, Glen Rice, Mcdyess, Marbury, Penny, Tim Thomas, Crawful, Q.Rich, Francis, Rose, Zach, ect., ect.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Kiyaman said:


> I would personally shoot Walsh if he got any of the players above....alot of prime NBA players can not deal with New York media limelight or the New York Knick-Fans emotional Boos after consistent poor performances.
> Star players like Amare, Carmelo, T-Mac, Carter, Ben Gordon, and Nash are not built strong enough to endure the up and down response they will receive from the Gardens Knick Fans.
> 
> Knick-Fans has never been nice to high-price veteran players that come here since Truck Robinson, Webster, Lucas, Charles Smith, Houston, Glen Rice, Mcdyess, Marbury, Penny, Tim Thomas, Crawful, Q.Rich, Francis, Rose, Zach, ect., ect.


Don't you think your a little old to be making threats online especially to a guy that clearly would be improving the team if he brought in those players (considering what we're working with)? BTW, a number of the players you mentioned that are not "built strong enough" have enjoyed some of there best games at the Garden. I find that odd, dont you?


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Without jumping in the middle*

I have just two things to say on this subject....ok, three. First, how can anyone know who can or can't handle the searing heat of the NY media and fans? You simply can't tell until they try. A perfect example is the Yankees. There have been quiet, meek players who have excelled, and brash, arrogant players who have had complete meltdowns.

Second, we would be absolutely blessed to have a Carmelo Anthony as a Knick.

Third, hate your trades for the most part, Twinkie. I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. Trying to compete for one year before blowing it up again? My personal choice is to make every move with the intention of taking another step up. To me, getting guys like Tmac is not helping anything but is in fact, hurting the chances of developing a young nucleus. That could be critical is we strike out on FAs.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Without jumping in the middle*



alphaorange said:


> I have just two things to say on this subject....ok, three. First, how can anyone know who can or can't handle the searing heat of the NY media and fans? You simply can't tell until they try. A perfect example is the Yankees. There have been quiet, meek players who have excelled, and brash, arrogant players who have had complete meltdowns.
> 
> Second, we would be absolutely blessed to have a Carmelo Anthony as a Knick.
> 
> Third, hate your trades for the most part, Twinkie. I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. Trying to compete for one year before blowing it up again? My personal choice is to make every move with the intention of taking another step up. To me, getting guys like Tmac is not helping anything but is in fact, hurting the chances of developing a young nucleus. That could be critical is we strike out on FAs.


The proposed roster would only be a year older on average than (27) the one we currently have (26) assuming that we keep everybody. Beyond making us more competitive, it also allows for us to have greater financial flexibility come 2010. There would only be about $25 million roughly committed for that season but would retain the bird rights for key players such as Tracy McGrady should we be able to sign a big name free agent. Should we not be able to do so, we'd still have quality young players such as Charlie Villaneuva (25), Marcin Gortat (25), Ramon Sessions (23), Danilo Gallinari (21), Darko Milicic (23), Wilson Chandler (22) and two lottery picks from the 2009 draft and a third draft pick from Houston in 2010 (McGrady trade). None of those guys will be able to carry a team but ALL are solid multi-dimensional role players.


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

*Re: Without jumping in the middle*



TwinkieFoot said:


> The proposed roster would only be a year older on average than (27) the one we currently have (26) assuming that we keep everybody. Beyond making us more competitive, it also allows for us to have greater financial flexibility come 2010. There would only be about $25 million roughly committed for that season but would retain the bird rights for key players such as Tracy McGrady should we be able to sign a big name free agent. Should we not be able to do so, we'd still have quality young players such as Charlie Villaneuva (25), Marcin Gortat (25), Ramon Sessions (23), Danilo Gallinari (21), Darko Milicic (23), Wilson Chandler (22) and two lottery picks from the 2009 draft and a third draft pick from Houston in 2010 (McGrady trade). None of those guys will be able to carry a team but ALL are solid multi-dimensional role players.



haha you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. What's the point of having birds rights if you're already way under the cap. Do you even know what birds rights are? Unless you are planning on paying him a max contract, bird rights are completely irrelevent in the knicks situation and if u actually think T-mac will get ssigned to a max contract then that is laughable as well.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Pretty arrogant guy...*

Too bad you just don't know what you are talking about. Let's just say the knicks were to sign Lebron and Wade. That would bring them to the tippy top of the cap, yes? Let's also say they had Tmac and had an interest in re-signing him. Since signing him would mean having to exceed the cap, having his "Bird Rights" might come in handy, no? You ought to pump your brakes a bit before showing up here and acting like you know it all. That's twice you have been wrong on major CBA issues while berating the other poster. Go to the corner and take a time out.


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

*Re: Pretty arrogant guy...*



alphaorange said:


> Too bad you just don't know what you are talking about. Let's just say the knicks were to sign Lebron and Wade. That would bring them to the tippy top of the cap, yes? Let's also say they had Tmac and had an interest in re-signing him. Since signing him would mean having to exceed the cap, having his "Bird Rights" might come in handy, no? You ought to pump your brakes a bit before showing up here and acting like you know it all. That's twice you have been wrong on major CBA issues while berating the other poster. Go to the corner and take a time out.



Bird Rules were created to allow teams that are over the cap to re-sign their players without any contract limitations. There are rules in the CBA to prevent such thing as you are describing, and it's called "Free Agent Amount", so around 20 million of his salary(from his previous season) is calculated against their cap until he re-signs a new contract so in order to actually have that massive cap space to sign both Lebron and Wade they must first renounce T-mac's birds rights. So no his bird Rights will not help the Knicks situation at all. 

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, you should go take a timeout yourself...


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

*Re: Pretty arrogant guy...*



alphaorange said:


> Too bad you just don't know what you are talking about. Let's just say the knicks were to sign Lebron and Wade. That would bring them to the tippy top of the cap, yes? Let's also say they had Tmac and had an interest in re-signing him. Since signing him would mean having to exceed the cap, having his "Bird Rights" might come in handy, no? You ought to pump your brakes a bit before showing up here and acting like you know it all. That's twice you have been wrong on major CBA issues while berating the other poster. Go to the corner and take a time out.


Your scenario is prohibited by the N.B.A. collective bargaining agreement. Free agents from a current team count against the salary cap until they are signed by another team, re-signed, or have their bird rights renounced. It's there to close a loophole to prevent teams from doing the same exact scenario you just mentioned. In this exact scenario, having Tracy McGrady's bird rights actually hurts the Knicks because McGrady's contract at this point in time is for far more money then he is actually worth. All $23,239,561 of McGrady's contract is on the books until he is re-signed at a lesser value which would likely come before the Knicks went out to sign any other player(s) and remained under the cap or until they renounced his bird rights. This hereby makes the bird rights to McGrady essentially useless.

Here is the link.

To all, let's not get testy here. I'm actually enjoying some intelligent debate.


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

*Re: Pretty arrogant guy...*



urwhatueati8god said:


> Your scenario is prohibited by the N.B.A. collective bargaining agreement. Free agents from a current team count against the salary cap until they are signed by another team, re-signed, or have their bird rights renounced. It's there to close a loophole to prevent teams from doing the same exact scenario you just mentioned. In this exact scenario, having Tracy McGrady's bird rights actually hurts the Knicks because McGrady's contract at this point in time is for far more money then he is actually worth. All $23,239,561 of McGrady's contract is on the books until he is re-signed at a lesser value which would likely come before the Knicks went out to sign any other player(s) and remained under the cap or until they renounced his bird rights. This hereby makes the bird rights to McGrady essentially useless.
> 
> Here is the link.
> 
> To all, let's not get testy here. I'm actually enjoying some intelligent debate.


Thank you for that link, Testy is not so bad, at least it might start soome activity in these forums. 

But I dont see why this idiot is calling me out for no reason and saying im wrong when he clearly has no clue..:whiteflag:


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Pretty arrogant guy...*



jayisthebest88 said:


> Thank you for that link, Testy is not so bad, at least it might start soome activity in these forums.
> 
> But I dont see why this idiot is calling me out for no reason and saying im wrong when he clearly has no clue..:whiteflag:


He's calling you out because up until now (thanks to urwhatyoueati8god), you have been completely off base. Like the link said, however, there are loopholes present in this particular clause and there might be other ways to try and circumvent these rules. We obviously don't have the provisions in front of us verbatim to truly examine it properly but there are always missteps in language that can be exploited. A degree of all this comes down to interpretation and as such, this guy's interpetation of the language in this document maybe very different from what was intended. In either case, I like the idea of holding onto McGrady as an insurance policy should we not able to sign two All-Stars or only able to sign one.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Let's not forget his avocation of trading away or keeping certain players so that the Knicks end up worse this year so that they can get a better spot in the draft with their non-existent draft pick...


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

urwhatueati8god said:


> Let's not forget his avocation of trading away or keeping certain players so that the Knicks end up worse this year so that they can get a better spot in the draft with their non-existent draft pick...


We can't but I'm sure he certainly wishes we could, lol.


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

*Re: Pretty arrogant guy...*



TwinkieFoot said:


> He's calling you out because up until now (thanks to urwhatyoueati8god), you have been completely off base. Like the link said, however, there are loopholes present in this particular clause and there might be other ways to try and circumvent these rules. We obviously don't have the provisions in front of us verbatim to truly examine it properly but there are always missteps in language that can be exploited. A degree of all this comes down to interpretation and as such, this guy's interpetation of the language in this document maybe very different from what was intended. In either case, I like the idea of holding onto McGrady as an insurance policy should we not able to sign two All-Stars or only able to sign one.


There are no loopholes in T-macs case because his previous salary was already in excess of 20 million dollars. The only possible loophole that exists is if a player who you have birds rights to that is in line for a significant pay raise. A good example would be Michael Redd who's previous contract was less then 6 million so his cap hit was only around that for the Bucks, who took advantage of that by signing other players before signing him to a max contract, but that was because, even with his cap hit they still had room under the cap, but in T-macs case his cap hit is so high, that they would have to renounce his birds rights in order to have the ability to sign 2 all star worthy players, so in this case his bird rights are completely useless to the knicks.


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

urwhatueati8god said:


> Let's not forget his avocation of trading away or keeping certain players so that the Knicks end up worse this year so that they can get a better spot in the draft with their non-existent draft pick...



Yeah, I wrongly assumed that the Knicks pick this year had some sort of protection on it, so if they ended up with a top 5 pick they would be able to pick it. I have never seen a traded draft pick have so little protection on it, and thats why I made the wrong assumption that it was protected. and I just found out through the other thread that there is no protection on the pick .

I never made any posts to trade away or keep any players, please show me where I made any of those suggestions other then for the 2010 off season. 

However, IF the knicks DID have a pick, it would be have been the right move to do worse and get a top 5 pick in next years draft. So I was wrong in assuming that they had protection in the pick, but not wrong in my suggestion that they should tank IF they owned the pick in 2009.


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