# Whats Wrong With Vince???



## adhir (Apr 13, 2004)

just a question.....is vince not playing well...or is it that he wants to get traded...or is it that we have a balanced scoring team...the reason that vince is averaging like 16 points a game....i think it is a combination of everything....but hopefully it is the offense....ur thought


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I really hope he is focusing on other aspects of his game and not just the offense. I know he can do better than 16 and it baffles me why his numbers are down. But as long as the team wins it should be a good sacrifice


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

mitchell on the post game comments: "if you're playing good, you earn your right to be on the court."


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## MrTasty (Jul 5, 2003)

doesn't help that he plays 26 minutes, when guys like Lebron are getting 46 minutes.

Vince seemed happy on the bench. The unit out there was getting it done. Vince wanted to leave because the organization was getting anything done, and now they are with this unit-based approach to substitutions. Who cares about stats?


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

His scoring is obviously going to pick up, but when you have Bosh, Marshall, Rose, Alston and Mo Pete/on some nights. Thats great scoring options to have in my opinion. Especially in the Eastern conference. He isnt driving the ball in the paint that much but i do see he makes an effort sometimes, which isnt really enough. I am not hating because I love Vince Carter he is a great player. I think right now he is just being laid back but he needs to start trying to take over the game. For example last night would have been great for him to try and lead the team back against Sac-town but he didnt. I would give him 10-20 games before I assume anything. To me as long as we are winning I could careless what Vince Carter is doing. As long as when he is called upon he delievers in the clutch like in the Pistons game or the Portland game which was more clutch then ever.


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## EBP2K2 (Jun 23, 2003)

hopefully tonight's game was a bit of a motivation for both VC and JR... two max guys not playing in the final minutes of a close game.

can't take minutes for granted.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

Hey your team's 4-1 aren't they? If they're winning w/ Vince scoring less, then who cares!

You can kinda compare this to the Pistons model in a way. Rasheed Wallace would probably be averaging 20-9 with any other team, but he's settled into a role w/ Detroit and has really stepped up in other aspects of his game (esp. defense). As long as the Raps are winning, I see no problem w/ Vince.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

[strike]self-motivation[/strike]


No other reasons.


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## EBP2K2 (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Yao Mania</b>!
> Hey your team's 4-1 aren't they? If they're winning w/ Vince scoring less, then who cares!
> 
> You can kinda compare this to the Pistons model in a way. Rasheed Wallace would probably be averaging 20-9 with any other team, but he's settled into a role w/ Detroit and has really stepped up in other aspects of his game (esp. defense). As long as the Raps are winning, I see no problem w/ Vince.


winning is great, but you have to wonder just how many games the Raps 2nd unit will outplay the opposing team's 1st like they did last night... 

bottom line is VC and JR are shooting poorly, forcing shots, not driving to the basket enough...

Ben Wallace plays in the final 5 minutes, doesnt he?

well VC and JR now knows minutes arent guaranteed at the end just because they started.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Vince does not seem to have much explosiveness this year.

Even when he makes solid drives to the basket or to mid / close range his shot attempts just aren't as easy, as they were in prior years. He's making things look alot more difficult around the basket then he did in prior years.

So besides going inside not enough he does not do that well when he takes it in.

He could have a very old body, a body of a player in his thirties. Having that much jump, takes its toll.


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## MrTasty (Jul 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EBP2K2</b>!
> 
> 
> winning is great, but you have to wonder just how many games the Raps 2nd unit will outplay the opposing team's 1st like they did last night...


The beauty of the way Mitchell coaches is that if they aren't playing well he'll find a combination of players that is, and let them close the game out. You earn your minutes on the floor, unlike a certain ex-coach who would probably play only 2 guys if he had the chance.........


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Vince will be alright, he likes the limelight, I dont think him sitting on the bench for more games would go down well with him. He has to step his game up but regarding the game yesterday I thought it would be foolhardy if you replaced the players that were doing a considerable job on the jazz, the whole feel to the game would have changed and the outcome might have been different


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Mitchell was definitely sending a message to the whole team, but specifically to Rose and Carter, last night.

Your contract and your 'star' status will not guarantee you playing time down the stretch of games. You need to play hard every minute and do the little things the team needs. Like getting to the FT line and rebounding.

Starters lost ANOTHER first Q and then lost the 3rd Q as well.

Look for them to pick up their performance. They do not like being benched during crunch time.

I thought VC showed some leadership to start the game and backed up his words about this game defining the team. But then he fell back into old habits and his FG% fell off dramatically with no FT's to balance that.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^To Vince's credit though, Mitchell said he wasnt planning on keeping them on the bench. The subs were playing really good, it would be foolhardy to change the rhythm of the game. Lets not forget that Vince lives for crunch situations


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## pspot (Jul 14, 2004)

When Carter hit the winning shot two games ago this wasnt an issue, and it shouldnt be now
Mitchell seems to have a great feel for his players and the flow the game and goes with what is working and thats it
Carter was off after the 1st and thats it
but can someone tell me somthing
im not sure if i saw this but at one point late in the game, they showed the Raps bench and everyone was cheering except Vince, he was sitting there with his head down and i swear i saw him put lip balm on....whats up with that
did anyone else catch that?
i guess he is sick :sigh:


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## AdamIllman (May 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> Mitchell was definitely sending a message to the whole team, but specifically to Rose and Carter, last night.


why's he gotta be sending a message? He went with the guys who were getting the job done and he obviously made the right decision. I was very impressed to see Vince and Jalen both had very big smiles on their faces after the game..they were just happy to get the win. Why do we always have to make something huge out of nothing?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

The message was very clear.

Don't tell me that Mitchell wouldn't have played Carter in such a close game unless he was unhappy with the way VC was playing.

If VC had played well earlier, he would have played down the stretch. The bench has played well before and Sam brings the starters back anyway.

And if we had lost this game I am quite certain many of you would be crying about VC not playing.



> everyone was cheering except Vince, he was sitting there with his head down and i swear i saw him put lip balm on....whats up with that


I saw that too. VC looked like a lady at the hair salon with all the towels draped over him and putting that stuff on his lips.

He was not up cheering his teammates at all. He and Jalen gave each other a low five when the game was over and VC was starting to leave but came back to do an interview.



> To Vince's credit though, Mitchell said he wasnt planning on keeping them on the bench. The subs were playing really good, it would be foolhardy to change the rhythm of the game. Lets not forget that Vince lives for crunch situations


How is that to VC's credit? Not sure what you are saying here. If VC is so great and 'lives for crunch situations' how could it be foolish to sub him in? Guess VC didn't feel that the 3rd Q was a crunch situation as the game was in danger of slipping away?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

i don't know where i stand as far as a VC basher / VC apologist is concerned, but it's time to state the obvious:

VC has looked terrible in 4 of the 5 games, that one game being the POR game.

since day one, VC has looked so melancholic and complacent, not really getting into the flow of the as his teammates are. and for VC being the franchise player that he's claimed to be, wishing to accept the responsibility that's before him, it's pretty sad to see his bench mates Mo Pete and Murray contributing as much to the team as he is.

VC is supposed to be in a higher echelon than those two. STEP IT UP...


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> VC has looked terrible in 4 of the 5 games, that one game being the POR game.


I don't quite agree with this statement here... maybe 1 or 2 of the 5 games... the kings game, where basically everyone was horrible... and maybe the Detroit game, tho he did pick it up quite a bit down the stretch of that game.

He didn't have a terrible game last night, but it wasn't great either. He did do a good job initially by being aggressive and did a good job on defence with AK... and he played what? 28 mins?

But one thing I don't understand with these Raps fans are.. if Vince has a great game but the team loses... they bash Vince... if the teams wins and Vince plays within the flow of the team, they bash Vince.

Seems to me there are a lot of fans trying to take every opportunity to take a jab at him, which is quite sad considering we're actually winning now.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

I think it was wise Mitchell kept Rose and Carter on the bemnch as both are liabilities on defence and the 2nd unit was playing solid zone Late in the game.

They also worked the clock, Carter would have if was in the game settle for jump shots when he should penetrate as when Mitchell took him out he was shooting ice cold.

Jalen too many quick shots did'nt try to post up as much as he usaully does.

Vc got of to a nice start by getting easy scorers because he was penetrating but as the game wore on he went to that risky jump shot.

I think we can Win without him and if this trend continues we swhould trade him for Allen/Finley/J.Richardson.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>crimsonice</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't quite agree with this statement here... maybe 1 or 2 of the 5 games... the kings game, where basically everyone was horrible... and maybe the Detroit game, *tho he did pick it up quite a bit down the stretch of that game.*


yay, our franchise player only shows up for the last stretch of the game...



> He didn't have a terrible game last night, but it wasn't great either. *He did do a good job initially by being aggressive and did a good job on defence with AK... and he played what? 28 mins?*


i agree, he did do a good job (even a great job) intitally, and yet he only played 28 mins...why is that? hmmmm....



> Seems to me there are a lot of fans trying to take every opportunity to take a jab at him, which is quite sad considering we're actually winning now.


because we're capable of alot more if VC starts getting his head in the game.

i can't believe my sentiments on VC to get his head into the game is a bash against him...:nonono:


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> i can't believe my sentiments on VC to get his head into the game is a bash against him...:nonono:


no... that's not bashing him, but saying he played terrible for 4 out of the 5 games is.


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> i agree, he did do a good job (even a great job) intitally, and yet he only played 28 mins...why is that? hmmmm....


Because the guys we had on the floor was on a roll... If Utah had gotten closer, no doubt Vince would have been on the floor to close out the game. 

Great move by our coach by the way. His confidence in the bench players will help throughout the long season...


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>crimsonice</b>!
> 
> 
> no... that's not bashing him, but saying he played terrible for 4 out of the 5 games is.


he did not have much of an impact in 4 of the 5 games. that in addition to VC's status with this team as being a franchise player is deemed of being called terrible.


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> he did not have much of an impact in 4 of the 5 games. that in addition to VC's status with this team as being a franchise player is deemed of being called terrible.


I'd beg to differ... he constantly gave guys like Bosh and Woods easy baskets and open looks. And when he was not scoring well during the Detroit game, he was doing all the other things. He had 6 offensive rebounds that game... along with 5 assists... 

hey... I'm not saying I'm satisfied with his play either... we all know he can do better. But he hasn't been terrible and we have been winning.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>crimsonice</b>!
> hey... I'm not saying I'm satisfied with his play either... we all know he can do better. But he hasn't been terrible and we have been winning.


but if we want to keep winning, VC has got to more show more out there.

as much as i like the bench's efforts thus far into the season, know way they're the ones that could lead us into a respectable record.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Terrible is a bit of an overstatement.

But clearly he has only looked like a star player in one game, Portland.

We had control of the Detroit game the whole second half. Most of VC's points in the last 3 minutes were meaningless to the win.

He was horible in SAC and below average in the HOU and UTAH games.

As I said in other threads we could pick from 20 other swingmen in the league and get a similar contribution to what we have seen so far this year.



> i can't believe my sentiments on VC to get his head into the game is a bash against him..


There is a lot of hero worship and living in the past on this board. If you have anything negative to say about VC's game or personality you are quickly labeled a basher. Wanting him to live up to his potential makes you a basher.




> if the teams wins and Vince plays within the flow of the team, they bash Vince.


'Playing within the flow' is the new code for not impacting the game. Somehow it is now a positive that VC is just 1 of 10 guys who play each game and does not impact the game like a star should.

I guess he will be returning some of that max money contract now?

Watching your team lose every first Q is 'playing within the flow' I guess. Not getting to the FT line is 'within the flow'.

The second unit is much more responsible for our record than VC is. That's a fact.

But we have to make excuses about VC 'sacrificing' his game for the betterment of the team. Pure BS.

Swirsky mentioned on the FAN yesterday about conversations he had with KO. KO talked to VC constantly about going hard to the rim. VC was very concerned about the contact and KO would tell him 'yes, you are going to have contact, but you will get the and1 or get 2 FT's'. VC won't do it.


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## EBP2K2 (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>pspot</b>!
> When Carter hit the winning shot two games ago this wasnt an issue, and it shouldnt be now
> Mitchell seems to have a great feel for his players and the flow the game and goes with what is working and thats it
> Carter was off after the 1st and thats it
> ...


VC shouldnt have off nights, he's a max player.

he just showed no effort to get to the line.


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## pspot (Jul 14, 2004)

*I figured it out*

check this out

Vince is actaully really smart
He plays mediocore for a while, his value drops even lower then it was, Raps just want to get somthing for him in the end, he then gets traded to a team which has just given up less then what they would have before and he can play on a good team instead of a rebuilding one
huh, not bad eh
Im just joking i wouldnt give Vince that much credit
Hes playing within the system and thats great for the Raps

As for his value, im not sure what they could get for him now
Do you think they good get a guy like Turkgolu straight up for him now? More? Less?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Vince will be here for 3 more years if all we can get for him is Turkoglu.


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> But clearly he has only looked like a star player in one game, Portland.


I somewhat agree.... I honestly loved the way he played in the first game vs Houston. He was very efficient and effective that game.



> We had control of the Detroit game the whole second half. Most of VC's points in the last 3 minutes were meaningless to the win.


True, a lot of his points came towards the end of the game. But as I said earlier, his shot wasn't falling, but he did all the little things to get the win. I thought he played quite aggressive that game which is a good sign. (the 6 offensive rebounds)




> As I said in other threads we could pick from 20 other swingmen in the league and get a similar contribution to what we have seen so far this year.


Depends on what you mean by contribution. Stats wise, yes, effectiveness I don't think so. 



> There is a lot of hero worship and living in the past on this board. If you have anything negative to say about VC's game or personality you are quickly labeled a basher. Wanting him to live up to his potential makes you a basher.


Hey... I just was estatic about the big win, and then I come to this board and there's a whole thread on what's wrong with Vince. 



> 'Playing within the flow' is the new code for not impacting the game. Somehow it is now a positive that VC is just 1 of 10 guys who play each game and does not impact the game like a star should.


Last year, especially after the all star break when he was avging 26/6/6... people were bashing him cause the team wasn't winning. This year, we're winning, and we're still bashing him. Sounds like my ex girlfriend....

I'm not saying we should go out and praise the guy, but let's save our bashing energy on a game like we had in Sacramento...

Again, we all know Vince can play better, and I'm pretty sure he will. The fact that we could win with smaller contributions from Vince bolds well for the season. In the playoffs, if we do get there, you and I both know the one person to can get us deep is Vince.


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> but if we want to keep winning, VC has got to more show more out there.
> ...


I completely agree...


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> he did not have much of an impact in 4 of the 5 games. that in addition to VC's status with this team as being a franchise player is deemed of being called terrible.


He's avging 16/5/5 with less minutes and higher shooting percentage than last year... and playing much better defence... I agree that he needs to be much more aggressive on the offensive end, but I don't think that makes him terrible. Not great either, just average.

Franchise players playing terrible? How about Peja, Marbury, Melo.. etc etc....


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>crimsonice</b>!
> 
> 
> He's avging 16/5/5 with less minutes and higher shooting percentage than last year... and playing much better defence... I agree that he needs to be much more aggressive on the offensive end, but I don't think that makes him terrible. Not great either, just average.


so is that what we should expect from Vince now? he doesn't have to be great. he doesn't have to have huge impacts in games anymore. being average is something we should come to expect from him, night in and night out?

:sour: 

and my beef with him all this time is on the offensive end. vc's game on the defensive end has been an improvement over last year. but on the offensive end he really just stalls and competely gets away from what sam and the players are trying to instill.


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> i don't know where i stand as far as a VC basher / VC apologist is concerned, but it's time to state the obvious:
> 
> VC has looked terrible in 4 of the 5 games, that one game being the POR game.
> ...



Nice, saved me the trouble of having to type all of this myself. 

While this isn't the popular opinion in Raptorland, it is, at least to me, the truth. Other than 1 shot, Vince hasn't given anything to the Raps this year that is noteworthy. Sam Mitchell, Loren Woods, Chris Bosh and Rafer Alston have had far more to do with the Raptors current record than Mr. Carter. I'm not sure what the reason is and quite frankly I don't care anymore but if this is the way he is going to perform for us I would rather not see him in a Raps jersey down the road. Yes, the season is still young but haven't we all heard that before?


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

VC doesnt seem to be himself this season. He seems a step slower than usual... maybe because he came into camp overweight? He's just too complacent and disinterested in playing. His play is not hurting the Raptors right now, but who knows 20 games from now.

Its time to trade him.


Vince Carter
Milt Palacio

For

Dale Davis
Speedy Claxton
Mikael Pietrus <------ this guy will be real good if he gets a chance!


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I know this might be going of on a wild tangent, but seriously I doubt the raps are trying to trade Vince and I think Vince knows that too. For a player that wants to get traded he sure isnt doing too much to prove that he deserves to be traded for quality players. Look at portland showcasing Rahim, Minnesota Sczerbiak and I bet when Kidd comes back the Nets would do the same. I seriously wont be suprised if Vince is still here after the trade deadline and playing like a crazed man. I just hope this wont cause us games cuz he needs to play better and we all know his much better than what he is showing on court.


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> I know this might be going of on a wild tangent, but seriously I doubt the raps are trying to trade Vince and I think Vince knows that too.


I think that rob babcock will gladly get rid of him, if the offer is right. 

But who would take him at this point? Much like jalen, he's not playing as well as he should based on the amount of money he's making.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^But listen to whats been coming out lately, Babs says even if a good deal comes he would find it hard to trade Vince cuz he's worked hard during camp, Vince also says blah blah blah I have started to believe in the team , I rescinded trade comments in training camp. Just a bunch of propaganda being played by both Vince, Mitchell and Babs


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> I rescinded trade comments in training camp.


you sure of that?

My impression of vince is that he doesn't fit into the philosophy that babcock and mitchell are trying to develop in toronto. I don't think he is doing everything he can to help this team. He is playing below his ability. He's not running, he's not driving/drawing fouls.

He's like the kid in school who does just enough to get by. 

Like 7's said, there are AT LEAST 20 other swing man who can do everything vince has done (except the game winner). Many of those would be at a fraction of the cost. 

Given that we are already over paying one wingman, why are we over paying two?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I don't think Vince has gone-back on his trade request at all. I think he is wallowing in Toronto right now. Yet with the way he is playing, he's doing nothing to agitate trade talks. What's funny is that when he plays well suddenly people talk like he wants to stay. Just because it feels good to hit a game-winning shot doesn't mean he wouldn't like to do it somewhere else.


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> so is that what we should expect from Vince now? he doesn't have to be great. he doesn't have to have huge impacts in games anymore. being average is something we should come to expect from him, night in and night out?
> ...


Like I said, I agree with you that he needs to improve on the offensive end and I fully expect him to improve.

If Vince posts those numbers by the end of the year, I will be the biggest basher of Vince and honestly, I doubt we would make the playoffs if that happened.

Our bench is doing a great job right now, but the season is a long one. I still fully expect Milt to get back to his old ways. Mo Pete/Bosh/Woods/Alston all have proven to be inconsistant through an entire season. We'll still rely heavily on Vince to give us wins, hopefully not nearly as much as before.


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DAllatt</b>!
> 
> He's like the kid in school who does just enough to get by.


I agree. I think VC's talent has been wasted by being handed playing time consistently, no matter his performance, for the past 4 years.

Why work on his game? He was going to be given 40 minutes a night whether he played well or not.

Coaches were probably scared to bench him or criticize him for fear of fan/media outlash, or for fear of VC demanding a trade -- which happened anyways.

Its sad, thinking about what could have been, but I think we've seen the best of Vince Carter. Thanks to his lack of training, he's prematurely on the decline IMO.

EDIT: Lenny probably had a big part in this too... Lenny really wasn't big on practices and training, he wasn't going to be the one to push VC.


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> I don't think Vince has gone-back on his trade request at all. I think he is wallowing in Toronto right now. Yet with the way he is playing, he's doing nothing to agitate trade talks. What's funny is that when he plays well suddenly people talk like he wants to stay. Just because it feels good to hit a game-winning shot doesn't mean he wouldn't like to do it somewhere else.


ya... I was thinking about that as well. It almost seems as if he's deferring to his teamates to see what kind of support he's gonna have around him before he makes another push for a trade or detract his trade comments earlier.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Vince for Magette + fillers

Someone I believe owner of Staples centre said they could get other events that would give significant increases in attendence over the Clips.
Carter could really boast thier fan base dramatically.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Toronto trades: Jerome Moiso (No games yet played in 2004/05) 
SF Vince Carter (16.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.2 apg in 30.6 minutes) 
Toronto receives: SF Corey Maggette (18.8 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 5.2 apg in 38.0 minutes) 
C Zeljko Rebracca (1.3 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 0.3 apg in 8.7 minutes) 
PG Marko Jaric (8.6 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 2.8 apg in 30.2 minutes) 
SF Bobby Simmons (16.6 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 3.6 apg in 34.4 minutes) 
C Mikki Moore (6.6 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 0.6 apg in 19.0 minutes) 
Change in team outlook: +35.7 ppg, +17.4 rpg, and +8.3 apg. 

L.A. Clippers trades: SF Corey Maggette (18.8 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 5.2 apg in 38.0 minutes) 
C Zeljko Rebracca (1.3 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 0.3 apg in 8.7 minutes) 
PG Marko Jaric (8.6 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 2.8 apg in 30.2 minutes) 
SF Bobby Simmons (16.6 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 3.6 apg in 34.4 minutes) 
C Mikki Moore (6.6 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 0.6 apg in 19.0 minutes) 
L.A. Clippers receives: Jerome Moiso (No games yet played in 2004/05) 
SF Vince Carter (16.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.2 apg in 30.6 minutes) 
Change in team outlook: -35.7 ppg, -17.4 rpg, and -8.3 apg. 

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to Toronto and L.A. Clippers being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Toronto and L.A. Clippers had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You have been assigned Trade ID number 1991924

I dont think Clips would give Simmons but I added him to balance the deal cap wise perhaps a 3rd team would be thrown in to equal out the value.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

despite my statements in this thread, i still don't want vince to be traded.

i think it's a matter of bad habits and that he's not fully into the system yet. 

but what i'm really wondering is why he's not following the system yet.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> but what i'm really wondering is why he's not following the system yet.


cause he is being ignorant.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

vince has really made me sick so far this year. this was supposed to be his comeback year, but in KO's system early on last year he was playing much, much better than this. i mean there have been a couple of games where he took it into his own hands and stepped up in the fourth, but was no where to be found the rest of the game (aside from portland). 

i still want vince gone, but if he keeps playing like this, no one is going to want him. he really has to pick it up and get his head into the game. 

heres a trade i thought of:

to TOR
shaun livingston
kerry kittles
caron butler

to LAL
chris wilcox

to LAC
vince carter
brian cook
roger mason

..kittles comes off the books next season, and we get two more solid building blocks in butler and livingston. these two players specifically, ESPECIALLY livingston, really fit perfectly in our run and gun system. clips might be reluctant to trade livingston though, as even trading him for VC straight up would later bite them in the ***.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Wow Vince is arguably the most criticized superstar in the NBA. Even when he drops 25 5 5 some people still think he's doing something wrong. When the team wins, Vince is bashed, when the team loses Vince is bashed. At times some of them are warranted but this is just getting ridiculous. I personally just want the team to succeed. Winning is a very good feeling


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> Wow Vince is arguably the most criticized superstar in the NBA. Even when he drops 25 5 5 some people still think he's doing something wrong.


And then there are those people who think Vince can do no wrong.


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## MangoMangoMango (Jan 23, 2004)

I think vince is ok....he's just laying back becuz he knows his team is doing well.....he will step it up when he needs to....like the game against portland....


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MangoMangoMango</b>!
> I think vince is ok....he's just laying back becuz he knows his team is doing well.....he will step it up when he needs to....like the game against portland....


Well if he wants the team to continue doing well he better stop dropping more than 16 PPG, that is unecceptable for someone who is making 12 mill.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i think vince carter has played fantastic basketball this season. if anyone is to be considered "ignorant", it would probably have to be the fans who continue to rely on statistics as the comprehensive measure for performance. i think this is precisely why you don't evolve into a "boxscore critic"; boxscores don't tell the whole story. 

i'm not vince carter's biggest fan, but i'm not going to criticize the man for "just putting up 16 ppg" in his first five games. in fact, i think mitchell's system has been remarkably suited to vince's game, to his quirks, to his intangibles. vince seems to be the kind of player who has no problem distributing the ball if there's an open teammate. players like kobe and iverson, for example, put up incredible numbers but many of their shots are difficult- some would say "forced". vince hasn't forced anything this season- i don't think anybody on the _team_ has been caught forcing very much, and that's probably led us to some of the success we've enjoyed. 

aside from the sacramento game, i don't think we've endured an extended scoring slump this season. the team is getting open looks. i'm not going to solely attribute that to vince carter (i don't think it's ever that simple) but i certainly think he's been a key contributor. i don't think defenses have yet figured out the latest incarnation of the raptors, they continue to send double and triple teams in carter's direction, and we've destroyed that strategy by simply moving the ball. it's been wonderful.

sooner or later they'll adapt, no doubt, but then we'll have carter and bosh in "single coverage". it'll be perfect. i imagine carter's #'s would then go up (to more "acceptable levels") but that's the point: we're getting it done _now_. i think it probably has more to do with mitchell than carter but that isn't to suggest that carter hasn't been involved. 

don't read the papers- watch the games. the positive energy surrounding this team is palpable, the controversy has been shelved (temporarily?) and the only statistic that matters to our players is our record.

to this point, i think the season has been perfect.

peace


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

Fantastic basketball?

Defense -- He still cheats on almost every screen, gets beat backdoor at least once a game and to this day has never understood the concept of boxing out. Vince is proving once again that he is an average defender at best and average certainly doesn't earn someone a "fantastic" rating for their play.

Offense -- You are correct in stating that it isn't just about stats. But there are a few that are important to consider when judging a players' performance;

FG% - 41%. A clear indication that he's settling for jump shots, yet again. There have been numerous times already this season when Vince has disrupted our offensive game by jacking up unnecessary and unwanted shots. This tendency earned him a bench spot in the 4th Quarter in the Utah game. We aren't expecting him to dunk the ball every possession but I think most fans do expect that he make an effort to get inside every now and then. It's almost as if the fans have a better understanding of the game than Vince does at times. 

Ft's attempted - 15 in 5 games. Just to put this into perspective, he has also attempted 15 3 pointers to date making his 3pt to Ft attempted ratio a staggering 1:1. Fantastic? More like pathetic. He isn't attacking the rim at all this season and we need him to be that guy since he's basically the only one on our team that has the ability to do it.

His play has been very uninspiring so far and has been masked by our current record and by the performance of his teammates.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I don't agree with guys that dog VC based solely on points scored.

There is nothing wrong with VC scoring 16 points in a Win. But he should be scoring those points on about 12 shots, not 18 shots. It's about efficiency, and you can only be an efficient scorer by getting FT's. So that's one of my pet peeves with Vince.

Vince does have the responsibility, as our star, to stop scoring droughts and keep the team in the game by scoring, defending, rebounding, and setting up others at key times in games. That is one of my other pet peeves with Vince, poor recognition of 'key moments' in games.

Now lets look at stats and production (sometimes its the only way).

Going into this season almost everyone was expecting VC to put up around 24/5/5 with many fans expecting much more because of the uptempo offence which was supposed to fit him perfectly.

With that in mind this is what VC has delivered:

31 minutes
16 points
3.8 boards
4.2 assists
.418 FG%
.267 3pt%

If we up his minutes to say 38 you would get about 19/5/5.

So I ask this question. If VC is doing so much more to set up his teammates and play TEAM ball why is this not showing up in his assist and rebound numbers? Essentially all he is doing is giving us the same production in rebounds and assists with far less scoring and horrible efficiency. It takes him 16 shots per game to get his 16 points. That isn't exactly picking your spots.

Is this a good year for our star?

Why is VC the only star in the league whose value to the club doesn't show up on the stat sheet (according to his supporters)?

Djmyte was bang on about his defensive problems so I won't bother re-hashing those.


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

I'm judgin vince, not on stats, but on shot selection and overall effort. He is not taking the 'right' shots plain and simple. He's not taking it to the net nearly as much as he should. Vince should be taking at least 8 foul shots a game. 15 in 5 games is unacceptable

We need him to do this for many reasons. The most important is to draw the oposing big men into fouling him. Our front court isn't very strong, so if we can get oposing big men into foul trouble we will help ourselves exponentially. 

if vince is constantly a threat to take it to the rim, it will open up a lot more shots for him. Right now he can easily be gaurded as a spot up shooter. He hasn't dunked all season!!!

secondly I have not been impressed with his overal effort. He isn't playing like he has something to prove. As I've said before he seems to just be doing enough to get by. He's not playing defense exceptionally hard. Infact he isn't doing anything exceptionally hard.

you can say he's getting assists. well I think most of his assists come when he is too affraid to draw contact in the lane so he dishes it off, and when his defender has taken away a shot he just passes.

And I have one question. if vince hadn't hit the game winner against portland would it have been a great game for him? And to be honest I didn't, and still don't, like that shot. Sure it went in, but when the game is on the line YOU TAKE A HIGH PERCENTAGE SHOT. You don't jack a three pointer while being double teamed. He was lucky, anyone in the league would be lucky....He should have driven the ball to the net.


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

> Sure it went in, but when the game is on the line YOU TAKE A HIGH PERCENTAGE SHOT. You don't jack a three pointer while being double teamed. He was lucky, anyone in the league would be lucky....He should have driven the ball to the net.


I wanted to make this same point the other night but was to lazy to do so. Thanx for saving me the time and most importantly, the effort. Well done.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I just don't think that Vince is going to be content playing this way all season. I'd bet that we'll see an increase in his production over current levels.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

i agree with everyone that the main beef with this thread is not what numbers vince puts up, it's how he does it.

mitchell wants this team to get away from taking quick, long range shots...vince still does it.

mitchell wants this team to be very agressive everytime they step on the floor...from day one, vince has looked so melancholic and plays so soft.

mitchell wants to have a fluid motion offense...vince often stalls the pace.

everyone but vc (and rose, but that's another story) has really bought into the system, why hasn't vince yet? this system is supposed to cater the team overall, not just vince.

i like vince and his playmaking skills, but i hate it when he drives to the bucket having ample oppostunity to draw the foul, but instead dishes it out onto the perimeter, which in itself, is a lower percentage shot.

i'm not saying we should trade vince, or that he's lazy (he's proved otherwise with his improved defense thus far), but he doesn't seem to be on the groove as far as the offensive end is concerned.

all i know is, as the season goes on and teams become more familiar with each other, we'll need vince to make smart plays on the offensive end on some nights to stay in the game.


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## HotShot (Nov 12, 2004)

Yeah, VC has definately got to pick things up. He continues to play the same uninterested style that has really dropped his level of play. Vince has the talent to drop 27 everynight but just doesn't seem to want to. Hopefully he will turn it around tonight against seatle. And man he needs to get some playing time.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I was somewhat hopeful that Vince would play a little more selfishly this season and he's done quite the opposite to this season. I thought he'd be taking a lot of shots from all over the court, coming up on the break, post-up fadeaways, etc. To this point I think he's trying his best to get his points in the flow of the game rather than looking to call his own number. I do think that Vince will magnify his performance thus far as he gets to know our new team. 

Please let this start tonight and show up Ray Allen. Give me something to work with here.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

You know I agree with some points made and disagree with some, but to add to all this I really feel Vince right now is just trying to be one of the guys, the problem is he has to be more than that. He has to stop being so passive and actually look to get his own. Hopefully mitchell can do that and hopefully Vince and Ray go at it tonite


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

If only Vince could play like Steve Francis. He's fearless right now.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i just don't think individual numbers are all that important right now. i like the way vince has been integrated into the offense of the team- i think it gets everyone better looks. we've had certain possessions where we've _needed_ to score and vince has (imo) been pretty reliable in those instances. i think vince recognizes his position as the franchise player but is trying to balance that responsibility with the overriding success of the _team_. i don't think that thought has ever crossed his mind _consciously_, but i think its effect has been seen on the court.

in other words, i think vince carter has struck a fine balance between superstardom and wins. i'm more than content with the basketball we've seen this year- i'm elated. keeping it up for 82+ games is another story but i think we're getting a pretty good grade thus far.

vince too. 

peace


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

He certainly did frustrate me last night against Seattle. Why not take a note from Ray Allen and stop fading on every one of your shots?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> He certainly did frustrate me last night against Seattle. Why not take a note from Ray Allen and stop fading on every one of your shots?


or hope about waiting to get a good look first before attempting long range shots?

:nonono:


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> or hope about waiting to get a good look first before attempting long range shots?
> ...


That's not such a big deal for me. Vince should be one of the best 3-point shooters in the game, whether pulling up off the jab step or recieving the ball off the screen. He hasn't been shooting that well to start the season but getting good looks from 3, he should make a good %. He just needs to get his feet set, it's just a bad habit to fall backwards rather than jumping into your shot. 

Yes, he should take smart shots but 3 pointers, even with a defender chasing, aren't necessarily bad shots for VC.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> If only Vince could play like Steve Francis. He's fearless right now.


Francis has been tremendous for the Magic this year, and its not just like hes putting up the stats.. hes winning games for his team with game winners, and setting up his teammates. 

Remember Weisbrod said he wouldn't trade Francis for VC because Francis is a "warrior". That statement is true, like you said Francis is fearless, whereas Carter is really playing the exact opposite.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Vince leads the team in shots taken, 96. So this crap about getting his shots 'in the flow' doesnt' fly. If they are such good shots why is his % so low?

The next closest is Bosh with 72.

Bosh and Peterson have the same number of FTA's as VC, 19. Rose has only 2 less. Palacio has only 4 less. VC is shooting way too many 3's (at a very low percentage) and not enough FT's. Especially given all the shots he takes.

FG%
Bonner .552
Palacio .520
Bosh .514
Woods .513
Rafer .464
Marsh .415
VC .396
Rose .384

3pt%
Bonner .500
Rafer .400
Jalen .375
Murray .333
Peterson .333
VC .318


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> Vince leads the team in shots taken, 96. So this crap about getting his shots 'in the flow' doesnt' fly. If they are such good shots why is his % so low?
> 
> The next closest is Bosh with 72.
> ...


We all know that he's not getting to the free throw line, driving to the hoop, etc. That doesn't mean that he's not taking open, makable shots. Some do leave me shaking my head because he's missing more than he should but it's not like he's dribbling over half and jacking 3s. Yes, he has to improve but I believe his shot will come along. For some reason he's even struggling from the FT line. He'll find his rythm before lone (ie tonight vs Portland).


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

and yet more proof. the + and - stats thus far:


> Player On Court+/- Off Court+/- Team Net+/-
> Araujo +22.5 +1.2 +21.3
> Murray +13.1 -2.2 +15.2
> Bosh +6.4 -7.8 +14.3
> ...


VC may improve later on the season, but that doesn't excuse the fact that he's hurting the team moreso than helping them in this current state.

alongside Carter are Rose and Marshall, who were the other two best players last year, that have been detrimental to the team. but that's going onto another topic.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

So let me get this straight, Vince is the biggest problem on the raps. If so I hope mitchell benches him and starts Peterson or Murray will see if they can do any better


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> So let me get this straight, Vince is the biggest problem on the raps. If so I hope mitchell benches him and starts Peterson or Murray will see if they can do any better


[strike]Stop being a baby.[/strike] Everyone on this board knows that we need Vince Carter to win ball games, that was evident in the 1st quarter of last night's game. The main reason he is being talked so much about him, is because everyone knows he can do so much better. 

VC is playing lazy basketball right now, settling for jumpshots, and not trying to get in and draw the foul. It's sad to watch to be quite honest.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jcintosun911</b>!
> 
> 
> Stop being a baby. Everyone on this board knows that we need Vince Carter to win ball games, that was evident in the 1st quarter of last night's game. The main reason he is being talked so much about him, is because everyone knows he can do so much better.
> ...


I wouldn't call it lazy basketball as his defense has been quite good. He's just been very tentative to this point.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^I totally agree with ya, but I dont like the fact that at times some posters seem to not understand the difference between criticism and hateful bashing


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Vince Carter absolutely EMBARASSED himself last night. He was pathetic in EVERY part of the game. He contributed NOTHING to his team and leaving him on the court HURT OUR TEAM and dug a hole so deep that we couldn't get out of.

Nobody can dispute that. 

You cannot even use the word 'defense' in the same sentence as VC for this game, because there was absolutely none. He didn't even try. DerekAnderson (not exactly a top 20 player) BLEW by him at will for easy layups and shook him out of his shoes for wide open J's. That was embarassing. You have to at least slow your man down to let help come.

And his shot selection continues to baffle Sam Mitchell and fans alike. After very questionable shots in Seattle and publicly stating that he had to do better VC comes out and proves YET AGAIN, that his words mean nothing. Its all BS. He just comes out and from the very first shot takes a long fadeaway J just inside the 3pt line. Continues to chuck up J's all game with no aggression or hard drives to the rack.

He doesn't even run the court hard when Rafer is pushing. And he is always bent over and holding his shorts during play stoppages. The guy is out of shape.

Does anyone think there are GM's out there watching these 7 games and thinking that they NEED to get VC on their team? Or even want him?

Vince is embarassing himself.

Even Sherman Hamilton was RiPPING Vince on the post game:

"Raps had a chance to win BECAUSE VC was not in the game"
"come sit by me jump shots"
"no excuse for not having any FT's"

That's how bad things have gotten. Even the Raptors own broadcast crew is publicly ripping the 'star'.

Six of Seven games VC has been average to horrible by NBA SG standards. That's unforgiveable.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

It pains me to see that after 7 games he has only one 20 point game. He needs to do some soul searching, cause everyone knows Vince can do way better than what he's putting forth lately. For one though, I know Vince doesnt like the whole idea of sitting on the bench, if thats whats going to take to light a fire under him, then mitchell should go for it.


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## firstrounder (Oct 31, 2004)

When he watches the game tapes how can he not be embarassed by his performances?


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Vince Carter is my second favorite player, but I have to speak the truth to guys who get to watch The Raps everyday.. Sigh.. A HK guy would actually know more than you guys, sound patheic, eh?

Here we go, I did watch Vince Carter played 2 games so far. One against Portland, one against Seattle. But anyone knows how Sam Mitchell is running the team?

1) Point Guard Oriented, by meaning so, Alston is running the show. He gets a green light in pick and rolls, pick and shoots, and pick and slashes. But that is without worrying creating shots for Vince Carter. Sam Mitchel first of all ignored that they have a superstar in Vince Carter. *Most* of the shots Vince Carter was getting, those were never specificly designed to Vince Carter. If Voshel Lendard were on our team, if Derek Anderson were on our team, and if all third tier swingmans were on our team, they both get those shots. Then it's the matter of making those shots. Yeah, Vince Carter us our franchise player so he gets blame for playing crap. But there were the guys I mentioned having Vince Carter bad nites this year and went unnoticed.

2) Alstom is really excited to have the team running the show, but he over runs it in clutch time. Like I said, anyone can put up nice numbers, a good talent can get you close games, a great talent can get you wins. Alstom will lead us many close games, but Vince Carter will lead us wins. The guy needs more catches in the game to warm up insolation situations. Guys can ***** all you want, but by running isolation plays for Vince, I meant the entire team allow Vince to *TAKE HIS TIME* to beat his man off the drrible. It never happened, at least in the games I saw. I remember one play Carter got the ball and wanted to isolate against Ray Allen, but Alstom was *SO EAGER* to have the ball back and Vince Carter waived him off. Remember Vince Carter is a team player, he doesnt waive someone off for an isolation play on a consistent basis. It hurts the team Chemistry. And there is a difference by Alstom saying "Vince, we are going to go theough you right now, get us a bucket, we will be the finishers" That's what Jason Kidd does his best, that's what Penny in his prime does his best. *On purposedly deferring to someone and gives confident to the player on teh court*.

3) This is actually Vince Carter's fault by his one dimensional on drives. Carter had been in teh NBA for 6 years, scouting reports know that you dont use the pull up jumpers on drives to throw defenders off, you dont use pump fakes consistently to throw defenders off, and you dont use the effective between the legs move to change direction and go back to your strong hand for jumpers when you are going full force to your left. AND NO ONE COULD BLOCK YOU SHOT ON THE MOVE, you dont need to fade away so much to get a shot off when driving from baseline in few occassions that he did.

I will be continute later, not being harshed here but at least knows what the problems were before bashing him,


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I dont expect him to play like this for long, its too good a player for that. He's bound to bounce back one time or the other, hopefully its soon so we dont wait too long and go through seeing him play so bad. Oh by the way, good summary John


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## sKiP~2~mY~BLUTH (Aug 11, 2004)

john i realy dont understand u...
r u sayin that vince aint playin good cuz of rafer and rafer's style of play?


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

please trade his useless A$$.

Work some deal to get any of these guys:
Allen
Finley
Maggete
Gordon, Chandler (package)
Redd


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

> john i realy dont understand u...r u sayin that vince aint playin good cuz of rafer and rafer's style of play?


I think his saying Vince isnt the focal point of the offense and doesnt get the ball in his hands as much as he used to


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> 
> 
> I think his saying Vince isnt the focal point of the offense and doesnt get the ball in his hands as much as he used to


no one is the focal point of the offense anymore. mitchell's system is devised so that anyone from carter to palacio can get easier looking shots. 

THIS IS A TEAM-ORIENTED SYSTEM. and if Vince isn't taking advantage of this, then give him limited minutes.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> no one is the focal point of the offense anymore. mitchell's system is devised so that anyone from carter to palacio can get easier looking shots.
> ...


Seriously, last year every play was going through him and look where we ended up. This year everyone is getting involved, and it's obvious if you look at the players' stats.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

And before you all accuse me of homerism, I said in my earlier posts that if Vince is playing bad, Mitchell should bench him, if thats a way to inspire him then let it be. The man has played in the league for 6 years, he should know by now that his plays of the last few games are unispiring and he should step it up


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> The man has played in the league for 6 years, he should know by now that his plays of the last few games are unispiring and he should step it up


and these are the same exact words he stated after that SEA game. he took upon himself to take the blame and vowed to 'step up' for the game last night...

gee, we all know how that ended up.


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## EBP2K2 (Jun 23, 2003)

VC was saying he's playing a team ball for last few years, etc etc... let's see how that works out for him without playing 4th quarter...

bottom line is, VC is a defensive liability and an average jump shooter..... 

When I saw Lamon Murray slashing to the basket, going after rebounds, and only occasionally pulling up for the pointers for the past 2-3 games, I shook my head in disgust of VC... if LM can do those things, why can't VC?


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