# OT: Arenas says he will opt out after 08 season.



## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

What do you guys think?

Arenas is a beast and is very underrated. I was thinking we could ship out either marbury or francis since they will be on the last year of their contract a draft pick maybe and one of our young guys.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Not nearly enough.*

He is a top 10 player. Think along the lines of a Kobe, JO, Garnett, Wade TYPE deal.


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## EwingStarksOakley94 (May 13, 2003)

Obviously it's possible. We've seen superstar players get traded for lesser value plenty of times before (Shaq-Odom/Butler or Iverson-Miller/Smith, for instance).

BUT, in this scenario I think the Wizards would rather just keep Arenas and let him opt out, opposed to getting Marbury or Francis (neither of whom are better than Arenas) and letting one of them come off the books. 

That's just my initial thought. You know I would love to see Arenas in orange and blue. Talk about a guy who could take the focus off Curry!


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*You guys are both nuts...*

Show me ONE time when a guy of that magnitude was traded for an aging, expiring player + a young non-star + a not-so-great pick. They would have a helluva lot better offers than that.


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

crazy....or crazy like a fox lol

arenas is constantly overlooked. all he needs is to play in a big market. If he demands only a sign and trade to the knicks maybe we could pull it off. maybe even a 3 team deal. wiz would get cap space for the 09 FA's anyways.

maybe i was reaching a bit. damit arenas why did it have to be 08 and not 09.....knicks get shafted by bad luck again.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

baron davis was traded for an expiring in dale davis and speedy claxton

AI was traded for andre miller and joe smith expiring deal plus 2 late round 1st rounders

our very own stevie francis was aquired for a peeny expiring and trevor ariza

marbury was had for mcdyess' expiring plus ward , eisley and 2 1st rounders

in the 2008 offseason both marbury and francis become expiring contracts.

so if he does opt out a deal could be done for a large expiring deal and some youth ...thats just where in all likelyhood where the market will be , but it should be noted Arenas has said he is just doing this for more money from the wizards and isn't at all looking to leave.

so this is only a possibility if things sour between him and the wizards.


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## EwingStarksOakley94 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: You guys are both nuts...*



alphaorange said:


> Show me ONE time when a guy of that magnitude was traded for an aging, expiring player + a young non-star + a not-so-great pick. They would have a helluva lot better offers than that.


1) ray allen-gary payton

2) vince carter-alonzo mourning +

Those are two that come to mind. 

Still I agree, they would get better offers for arenas than marbury or francis +


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: You guys are both nuts...*



EwingStarksOakley94 said:


> 1) ray allen-gary payton
> 
> 2) vince carter-alonzo mourning +
> 
> ...


This isn't a response directly to you Ew, but more of a response geared to that whole concept of Marbury and Francis not being enough. I think people forget that not to long ago, Marbury and Francis were considered two of the better players in the league. Both have been forced to change their styles to accomodate their teams. When you give them the kind of freedom Arenas has had though, I feel they can put up those same kind of similar numbers. Because Arenas is younger, you'd probably have to overcompensate the Wizards but I don't think we'd be in a worse position to acquire him considering how many young assets we have.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Nope......*

Marbury in his prime...maybe...just maybe. Francis was NEVER as good as Marbury and they both are on the decline. Neither can, or ever could shoot or score like Arenas. He is special. By the same token, Gilbert is strictly a scorer on offense.



And to Grinch and EW.....none of those guys you mention are in the class of Arenas. He may not even be at his peak yet and all the others except possibly Ray Allen were on the way down. He actually blew up more once a sonic. At the time, Francis was hardly considered a star. More of a distraction, actually.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

ChosenFEW said:


> crazy....or crazy like a fox lol
> 
> arenas is constantly overlooked. all he needs is to play in a big market. If he demands only a sign and trade to the knicks maybe we could pull it off. maybe even a 3 team deal. wiz would get cap space for the 09 FA's anyways.
> 
> maybe i was reaching a bit. *damit arenas why did it have to be 08 and not 09.....knicks get shafted by bad luck again*.


Nah, not bad luck just irresponsibility by a couple of bone head GMs. Anyway, I like Gilbert a lot, he became a favorite of mine over the years. I think he had a shot at MVP, but the 2nd half of the season he drop down a little bit. He is ice cold from the field, it's almost scary. I swear ice runs through his veins. Gilbert in the backcourt at the Garden would just be sick. I also like his personality, he has an ego but not big enough to make you hate him. LOL You should read some of his blogs....it's hilarious. Oh well, guess we can continue to dream, that the Knicks will land a superstar some where down the line.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Nope......*



alphaorange said:


> Marbury in his prime...maybe...just maybe. Francis was NEVER as good as Marbury and they both are on the decline. Neither can, or ever could shoot or score like Arenas. He is special. By the same token, Gilbert is strictly a scorer on offense.
> 
> 
> 
> And to Grinch and EW.....none of those guys you mention are in the class of Arenas. He may not even be at his peak yet and all the others except possibly Ray Allen were on the way down. He actually blew up more once a sonic. At the time, Francis was hardly considered a star. More of a distraction, actually.


Marbury and Francis are both 30 years old so they are still in their physical prime. The only difference between now and a couple years ago is the fact that they are no longer the team's primary offensive option. Neither can shoot the ball as well as Arenas or be as clutch but Marbury at least can run a team from passing the ball moreso than Arenas can (and is why he was not chosen to be on our USA Team). Arenas at this point has the greater upside but if he demands a trade, the Wizards are going to have to settle since those kind of players rarely are traded for equal value. The star power of a Marbury or Arenas with a couple trade assets is about the best they could hope for.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

marbury was like 26 when he was traded to the knicks and coming off a season when he was 3rd all nba.

baron davis was 25 when he became a warrior, also coming off a 3rd team all nba slot.

francis 28.

in the 08 offseason gilbert will be 26 in his prime just like the 3 above ...an ending contract and some youth will most likely be the price .

he's special, but he's not kobe special that is something to remember.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Nonsense...*

Marbury and Francis at 30 are far from being in their physical prime. Both are in a downward slide from a physical and effectiveness standpoint. These are undeniable facts. To state otherwise is ludicrous. Francis never was as good as a player as Arenas. Davis is another player with injury problems. We wouldn't be having this discussion if he hadn't had a great series. He is not as good as he looked. Very good player, but not great. There are real reasons these guys got traded for peanuts and you all know this. Aside from being eccentric, Arenas has no such baggage and, therefore, will be more valuable. 

BTW, I never said he was a Kobe type player, I said it would take a major deal like Kobe, KG, or JO, and it would.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

He's just trying to keep the Wiz on their heels to be serious about contending, while re-upping for major money. That's all.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Nonsense...*



alphaorange said:


> Marbury and Francis at 30 are far from being in their physical prime. Both are in a downward slide from a physical and effectiveness standpoint. These are undeniable facts. To state otherwise is ludicrous. Francis never was as good as a player as Arenas. Davis is another player with injury problems. We wouldn't be having this discussion if he hadn't had a great series. He is not as good as he looked. Very good player, but not great. There are real reasons these guys got traded for peanuts and you all know this. Aside from being eccentric, Arenas has no such baggage and, therefore, will be more valuable.
> 
> BTW, I never said he was a Kobe type player, I said it would take a major deal like Kobe, KG, or JO, and it would.


what in the world are you blabbering about?

you might be having an argument with yourself.

all i was doing was making a comparison of what they garnered in trade their age and where they were in the nba as far as general reputation in the league .

the only person talking about their current age is you and it is very irrelevant to this conversation.

and arenas has alot of baggage which is why the nuggets went for andre miller instead when they were both free agents , stuff like licking the side of women's faces at playoff games and just general quirkyness you would not assume any normal man would do.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Go back and read, Grinch...*

You just go looking for arguments. Everything I said was true and in response to things that were posted. I give you exhibit A:
"Marbury and Francis are both 30 years old so they are still in their physical prime." By Twinkie. 
It isn't always about you.

As far as quirkiness.....if you think anyone is concerned about his strange quirks, you're nuttier than he is. He's weird, but harmless.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Go back and read, Grinch...*



alphaorange said:


> You just go looking for arguments. Everything I said was true and in response to things that were posted. I give you exhibit A:
> "Marbury and Francis are both 30 years old so they are still in their physical prime." By Twinkie.
> It isn't always about you.
> 
> As far as quirkiness.....if you think anyone is concerned about his strange quirks, you're nuttier than he is. He's weird, but harmless.


the people worried about his quirks have already been answered the fact that you are ignorant of this only speaks poorly of you.

he was only really pursued by 3 teams when he was a free agent.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Not real good at this, are you....*

When Arena signed with Washington, he was coming off a 18ppg, 3.5 TO, 43%fg season, and you think his quirkiness was the reason he had so few suitors? ROFLMAO....

I suppose you think there would only be a few this time as well? Denver took Miller because they knew they were drafting a scorer and they were looking for a true pg...not another scorer. Dog eat your homework?


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Go back and read, Grinch...*



alphaorange said:


> You just go looking for arguments. Everything I said was true and in response to things that were posted. I give you exhibit A:
> "Marbury and Francis are both 30 years old so they are still in their physical prime." By Twinkie.
> It isn't always about you.
> 
> As far as quirkiness.....if you think anyone is concerned about his strange quirks, you're nuttier than he is. He's weird, but harmless.


Francis and Marbury are exiting their prime but they are still in it. They've relatively been on chains the past couple of years so you can't necessarily point to the stats because if you allow them to dictate the offense they would put up similar numbers.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*It has nothing to do with stats...*

Both guys are getting dinged up much more frequently. Both are bothered by back to backs, and i don't mean they are annoyed by them. They are affected.They both have high miles...especially Marbury since he came into the league early and has always played big minutes. If you watch any ball with these guys you understand that while they may be capable of very nice bursts or even a mini streak, they are not capable of sustaining like a player in his physical prime. I'm not sure how anyone can even argue this. They are not on the upswing or at their peak. They are on the downside. Now, just how far down is up for debate.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Not real good at this, are you....*



alphaorange said:


> When Arena signed with Washington, he was coming off a 18ppg, 3.5 TO, 43%fg season, and you think his quirkiness was the reason he had so few suitors? ROFLMAO....
> 
> I suppose you think there would only be a few this time as well? Denver took Miller because they knew they were drafting a scorer and they were looking for a true pg...not another scorer. Dog eat your homework?



you are ridiculous , i am seriously beginning to think you just post for the sake of it.

so basically you think kiki lied about his reasons for choosing miller over arenas.

got any proof?

i doubt it because the dog never does his homework, 

i know i read kiki didn't want arenas' personality in sports illustrated when they made the decision and am pretty sure i posted the link , i'm just too lazy to go look it up.

so i know my proof is out there.

why because he was doing things like licking the sides of girl's faces like he was rick james at nba games, and breaking into his GM's house to steal his jersey and then wear it on the team plane.

not shooting the ball in a game until the last 4 minutes of the game because he thought Antawn jamison was shooting too much.

the halftime showers and video poker.

and this is just stuff he did as a warrior.

gil avg 18 at 21(21 you see alot of 21 year olds who can do that and not have alot of suitors do you?)) while establishing his current career highs in rebounds and assists and shoots a slightly lower fg% now than he did then so i dont know how bringing up his FG% is a detriment now when you want to call him "special", you are acting like no one knew he had talent when the truth is no one wants the best player on their team to be a headcase because teams have a tendency to follow their best player(s).

you think after he exploded on the scene people couldn't tell that he could do this at 24 or 25?

are you really that dense?

dont answer that , it was rhetorical.

but by now you must realize how inaccurate your post was.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*You are full of crap*

"The whole situation, keep in mind, is predicated on how much Denver is willing to offer. At least one GM says he isn’t so sure the Nuggets will start at the magic $7 million figure, given the lack of teams with salary cap space. With Andre Miller also a free agent, Denver might try to get him cheaper and save money for other free agents at other positions.

Still, the Nuggets clearly have targeted the 21-year-old Arenas, who won Most Improved Player last year and could be a major building block for their future. Even one Warriors player who shall remain anonymous told me during the season he thought Arenas was a goner." -SI

You should do YOUR homework and take being wrong like a man. 7 mil was the magic number and was considered a bit high. You actually believe he would sign for anywhere near that now? The Nuggets got cheap and took Miller. Was that the same Sports Illustrated you read? lol.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make about Arenas but he was nowhere near the player with the Warriors that he is now. His stats are different because he is playing a different role. You can't think very well at all. All you can do is regurgitate some fluff piece or stat with no idea of what it REALLY means. You've been proven wrong so many times and never once admitted it. You just run and twist. Save it.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: It has nothing to do with stats...*



alphaorange said:


> Both guys are getting dinged up much more frequently. Both are bothered by back to backs, and i don't mean they are annoyed by them. They are affected.They both have high miles...especially Marbury since he came into the league early and has always played big minutes. If you watch any ball with these guys you understand that while they may be capable of very nice bursts or even a mini streak, they are not capable of sustaining like a player in his physical prime. I'm not sure how anyone can even argue this. They are not on the upswing or at their peak. They are on the downside. Now, just how far down is up for debate.


I think both you and I have a different definition of your prime because I include the immediate years surrounding your peak as your prime. Marbury and Francis certainly are not matching the numbers of when they were in their peak but physically they are not that far away from their peak and still can change games by putting up big numbers. They are on their downside but at the same time, so is KG and I still consider him to be in his prime but just the end of it. Like I said before, the Wizards are not going to get much more for Arenas because teams seldom do we they trade that kind of player.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: You are full of crap*



alphaorange said:


> "The whole situation, keep in mind, is predicated on how much Denver is willing to offer. At least one GM says he isn’t so sure the Nuggets will start at the magic $7 million figure, given the lack of teams with salary cap space. With Andre Miller also a free agent, Denver might try to get him cheaper and save money for other free agents at other positions.
> 
> Still, the Nuggets clearly have targeted the 21-year-old Arenas, who won Most Improved Player last year and could be a major building block for their future. Even one Warriors player who shall remain anonymous told me during the season he thought Arenas was a goner." -SI
> 
> ...


since you want to play this game lets play it.

no where in your post does it agree with you that the nuggets passed on him because he wasn't very good....merely that they were being money conscience

where is your admission of being wrong?

and thats why he had so few suitors like teams dont want 21 year olds who avg. 18 points agame .

you sound idiotic with such posts , because its not true.

JC as a FA at 24 or 25 after avg. 17.3 on sub. 40% shooting had 9 suitors initially before the bulls announced they would match any offer....and then it was just the knicks.

but a 21 yr. old shooting 43% avg 6.1 ast and 18 points has only 3 and your reason was he just wasn't good enough to have alot of suitors ?!?

and since the nuggets "targeted" arenas what did they offer?

did they even speak to arenas , no they didn't .

you must have taken the short bus to school because you dont know basketball to post such nonsense.


but i will admit a i did make mistake it wasn't sports illustrated it was espn.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2003/story?id=1558054




> AND ONES: During the Lakers-Spurs series, the game operations did one of those Kiss-Me routines, putting a couple on the scoreboard screen and goading them into a smooch. When the camera turned on Warriors guard Gilbert Arenas and a female companion -- they clearly didn't recognize him -- Arenas licked his friend's face instead. *Sources insist it's that sort of off-kilter behavior, combined with poor practice habits, that have convinced Denver not to pursue him on the free-agent market this summer*. ... While he hasn't been interviewed yet, Kings GM and former Blazers official Geoff Petrie is supposedly high on Blazers owner Paul Allen's list of candidates to replace Bob Whitsitt. Petrie didn't leave Portland on the best of terms so some fence-mending would be necessary to get him back.


this game is over and you lost.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Where did it mention Kiki?*

I missed it. Wrong. JC did not seek 7mil.....Arenas did. Think that may have cut down on his suitors? Arenas had 3 SERIOUS suitors...which means 3 that could afford him and had a need. JC could be had by anyone...even those over the cap. See the difference? You need to be more accurate and analytical. Your posts are full of your opinions disguised as facts. I never said he wasn't any good, nor did I say that the nuggets passed on him because he wasn't any good, did I? Just how many "serious" suitors did Tmac have after Toronto? Guess he must have had serious quirks and baggage, too. There wasn't a single accurate, relevant statement in your last post. You give ignorant a bad name.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Where did it mention Kiki?*



alphaorange said:


> I missed it. Wrong. JC did not seek 7mil.....Arenas did. Think that may have cut down on his suitors? Arenas had 3 SERIOUS suitors...which means 3 that could afford him and had a need. JC could be had by anyone...even those over the cap. See the difference? You need to be more accurate and analytical. Your posts are full of your opinions disguised as facts. I never said he wasn't any good, nor did I say that the nuggets passed on him because he wasn't any good, did I? Just how many "serious" suitors did Tmac have after Toronto? Guess he must have had serious quirks and baggage, too. There wasn't a single accurate, relevant statement in your last post. You give ignorant a bad name.


see now you are being dumb for the fun of it, but ok , i'll indulge you .

Denver's GM at the time was kiki , he was in charge of their player personel decisions .

jamal crawford has a deal that cant be made by a team with an mle smartypants , its a 7 year deal, 56 mil. find me a player with an MLE deal for that much....so no he couldn't be had by any1 unless he wanted to lower his asking price.



> When Arena signed with Washington, he was coming off a 18ppg, 3.5 TO, 43%fg season, and you think his quirkiness was the reason he had so few suitors? ROFLMAO....



those are your words , what do they mean if not that he wasn't good enough to get more suitors?

you are sad. trying to twist your own words like they aren't there for every1 to read in black and white.

and actually T-mac was ready to sign for the MLE for 3 years because the magic were supposedly going to get duncan and hill and he was still on board to go , so every1 was pretty much in play for him until duncan decided to stay in texas.

he was dead set on leaving toronto because he wanted out of Vince's shadow, but when duncan stayed all the teams with cap space were back in the game and orl. had to give him a max deal, he wanted to go home and without duncan he had big time leverage because now they really needed him.

you need to brush up on your nba free agent history or start backing up your "facts" with something other than an annoying sense of bravado.

and i'm still waiting for some proof that denver actually spoke to arenas...you know since they "targeted " him.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Let's take it step by step...*

1) read the quote I posted again. It CLEARLY indicates their interest in Arenas and reasons why they might not pursue him. Your article names unknown sources as saying they (Nugget brass) had concerns about Arenas' quirks and his penchant for poor practice efforts. Brass consists of scouts, GM, owners (in some cases), and coaches. You make an assumption that the un-named sources are reliable (they are more than likely the same type of sources you mock Vecsey for using) AND you have no idea what part of the Nugget front office they are supposedly representing. More of your opinion disguised as absolute truth. If a quote is not directly attributed to a specific confirmed source, you have to question the validity, or at least the motive. If you don't understand this part, you are naive and foolish. 

2)JCs signing was a creative effort to circumvent the Bulls re-signing him. The value is PRETTY MUCH the same as he could have gotten from most teams. The fact is, AND THIS IS THE RELEVANT PART, that JC was a much easier signee than Arenas. If you dispute this, your an idiot.

3)basically, my mention of Arenas' stats were qualified by saying his role had changed when he became a Wizard. Almost all players % goes down as they have to shoulder a bigger part of the offense on their own. He also does not have to board or be a playmaker in Washington...just be an offensive force. There is no doubt in my mind that if he played PG, and made it a point to hit he boards, his # would go up in those spots, too. This, however, is my opinion.

4) Your impression of Tmacs recuitment is revisionist at best and a load of crap at worst. I will research this and either give you credit for being correct or I will call you out again.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

You are both wrong about Arenas and Denver. Kiki wanted Arenas to be a 2 guard, not a PG and Arenas wasn't going to commit to a team that wasn't going to let him be a 1. 

After the fact, Kiki made up stories for the media to make himself look better. In Kiki's last season with the Nuggets he told one of his media buddies that it was the owner that didn't want Arenas because of Arenas' actions.

The entire urban legend around Arenas and Denver has been debunked by people with insider connections and I'm giving you the cliff notes version.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Since I never stated how Denver would use him...*

How am I wrong again? I simply indicated they were interested in him and why they didn't end up with him had nothing (or very little) to do with his "idiosyncrasies". I also stated that unconfirmed "comments" from insiders should be taken with a grain of salt. You are also mistaken that the position difference was the only reason. Denver also did not want to pony up at the rate of 7 mil plus, which Arenas SURPASSED with his Washington deal. Miller was cheaper and thought to be a reasonable 2nd choice. Those are facts.

BTW, since Denver had no pg of ANY consequence on the team, I'm not sure how reliable your argument is about the Nuggets wanting him as a 2 guard are. I have no evidence, but it makes no sense. He was also quoted as saying he loved the Nuggets. Money talks, which is why is maneuvering now to get more money from the Wiz.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Let's take it step by step...*



alphaorange said:


> 1) read the quote I posted again. It CLEARLY indicates their interest in Arenas and reasons why they might not pursue him. Your article names unknown sources as saying they (Nugget brass) had concerns about Arenas' quirks and his penchant for poor practice efforts. Brass consists of scouts, GM, owners (in some cases), and coaches. You make an assumption that the un-named sources are reliable (they are more than likely the same type of sources you mock Vecsey for using) AND you have no idea what part of the Nugget front office they are supposedly representing. More of your opinion disguised as absolute truth. If a quote is not directly attributed to a specific confirmed source, you have to question the validity, or at least the motive. If you don't understand this part, you are naive and foolish.
> 
> 2)JCs signing was a creative effort to circumvent the Bulls re-signing him. The value is PRETTY MUCH the same as he could have gotten from most teams. The fact is, AND THIS IS THE RELEVANT PART, that JC was a much easier signee than Arenas. If you dispute this, your an idiot.
> 
> ...


wow i am shocked by your lack of knowledge.

1.i am not even going to address this part because thats pure jibberish. you are wrong so you want to minimize the info despite the fact you have nothing at all more concrete to back up your own assertions.

...also still waiting for your proof that the nuggets actually spoke to arenas.

2. how do you circumvent a team from resigning some1 ...when they did a sign and trade? , 7 years 56 mil. was JC's price and the bulls could have paid it if they wanted to ...they didn't but they had an asset they didn't want to get away so they were going to at the very least sign him and deal him at a later point like they did tyson chandler, , after Zeke still wanted him and was willing to assume extra salary in JYD plus give up all his expirings in addition to paying JC's contract so a deal was made,that was it, its not rocket science. Which is why they stated they were going to match any deal,to scare teams away , that deal with the knicks helped them clear enough room to sign ben wallace last summer.

feel free to journey over to the bulls board if you dont believe me, you couldn't have gotten that more wrong .

3.thats an excuse and you know it, thats you trying to put forth your opinions as fact , its ironic how guilty you are of the same crimes you try to convict me of, and this is not the 1st time its happened, Arenas is their pg he is their best scorer as well, its his job to balance his scoring and get his teamates just like in G.S. its just his job to shoot more in wash. , just a more shot oriented version of what marbury has been doing his whole career .

just because he shoots more doesn't mean his % have to go down for instance in 05-06 he shot .447 and he put up a career high in points, you are just flailing away now....the great ones adjust and stay 1 step ahead of the defense for the most part.

4. you are funny , you are going to tell me i am wrong even when you admit you dont actually know, and tell me you are now going to check my answers like some nerdy teacher's asst. ...whatever.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

*Re: Since I never stated how Denver would use him...*



alphaorange said:


> How am I wrong again? I simply indicated they were interested in him and why they didn't end up with him had nothing (or very little) to do with his "idiosyncrasies". I also stated that unconfirmed "comments" from insiders should be taken with a grain of salt. You are also mistaken that the position difference was the only reason. Denver also did not want to pony up at the rate of 7 mil plus, which Arenas SURPASSED with his Washington deal. Miller was cheaper and thought to be a reasonable 2nd choice. Those are facts.
> 
> BTW, since Denver had no pg of ANY consequence on the team, I'm not sure how reliable your argument is about the Nuggets wanting him as a 2 guard are. I have no evidence, but it makes no sense. He was also quoted as saying he loved the Nuggets. Money talks, which is why is maneuvering now to get more money from the Wiz.


You are free not to believe what I posted, but that also means you will continue to be wrong. 

What you are attempting to offer as facts are simply not facts. It was never one or the other for the Nuggets. Kiki wanted both players to be his starting backcourt.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

From SI " The Word: The Nuggets won't have this much space unless they renounce their rights to Juwan Howard. Otherwise, his "cap hold" will take up half the Nuggets' space, so it will help if they reach a quick decision one way or another. The Nuggets could sign two free agents, including one for the maximum, and supposedly they have eyes for Golden State's Gilbert Arenas and the Clippers' Michael Olowokandi."

From Rocky Mountain News "Gilbert Arenas' salary demands may be pushing the Nuggets toward point guard Andre Miller. Arenas reportedly wants a contract starting at $9 million for the first year. Arenas' agent, Dan Fegan, may advise his client to stay with Golden State this season for the exception, then next year sign a seven-year maximum deal with the Warriors starting at about $10 million."

From Sporting News: "Three things could happen. First, the Warriors could dump enough salary to clear space for Arenas (and the team has desperately tried to do that). Second, Golden State could curse its luck and watch Arenas walk to a team with cap space. The rebuilding Nuggets are the favorite because Arenas has a good relationship with Nuggets general manager Kiki Vandeweghe--it was Vandeweghe who introduced Arenas to Tiff. Vandeweghe would like to build the Nuggets around speed to take advantage of the thin Denver air, and he knows no one is faster than Arenas."

From Hoopworld.com: "When Kiki started to head a different direction because Arenas’ price tag got too high, I was disappointed. Then we get Andre Miller who does a solid job at the point and leads us to the playoffs and all of a sudden it looks like a decent decision. That same year, Gilbert Arenas spent a lot of time injured and toiled an a non-contender Washington team. Fast forward one year and Gilbert Arenas is an All Star and one of the most exciting young players in the league and critics in Denver and around the country are asking if Andre Miller could ever be the right guy for the job. We could have had Gilbert for about ten million dollars more over six years. Who wouldn’t go back and sign Gilbert now? I sure as hell would." 

Everything I read says it was a matter of money and nothing else. I also found no article indicating any friction or doubt aboubt Arenas' character. I also found nothing citing a desire to sign both Miller and Arenas. Miller and Magette. Arenas and Olawakandi, maybe, but nothing on Miller and Gilbert. I don't need cliff notes. I am quite capable of read grown up articles. BTW, Grinch, just who were those 9 seriuous suitors for JC?

I have furnished sources. Time for you guys to either pony up or shut up. One or the other. I'm betting you won't have the sources and you can't shut up.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

alphaorange said:


> From SI " The Word: The Nuggets won't have this much space unless they renounce their rights to Juwan Howard. Otherwise, his "cap hold" will take up half the Nuggets' space, so it will help if they reach a quick decision one way or another. The Nuggets could sign two free agents, including one for the maximum, and supposedly they have eyes for Golden State's Gilbert Arenas and the Clippers' Michael Olowokandi."
> 
> From Rocky Mountain News "Gilbert Arenas' salary demands may be pushing the Nuggets toward point guard Andre Miller. Arenas reportedly wants a contract starting at $9 million for the first year. Arenas' agent, Dan Fegan, may advise his client to stay with Golden State this season for the exception, then next year sign a seven-year maximum deal with the Warriors starting at about $10 million."
> 
> ...


you furnished nothing, all i asked for was proof that the nuggets spoke to arenas ...arenas made his contract demands well in advance of the free agency signing period and their are no dates on anything or even links for that matter ....so what did you really put up there ?

you could have typed all of this for all I know. and even if you didn't...

nothing saying they spoke to any1 while arenas was a free agent , just that they were thinking about it.

i have a post on this thread where it says the nuggets changed their mind and chose not to chase him.

it has a date and a link...nothing you have refutes that and even if it did , do you honestly believe hoopsworld is the equal of ESPN, c'mon now its obvious whose post has more credibility.

as for crawford 

http://www.basketballforum.com/chic...mi-new-york-sactown-discussing-s-t-jamal.html

8 teams making serious inquiries plus of course the bulls.

link in thread i could put the hoopsworld version of that if you like.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_8897.shtml



> IN PURSUIT OF JAMAL:As many as eight teams are coveting the services of Bulls restricted free agent Jamal Crawford. The Bulls have taken a wait and see approach to Crawford who is expected to demand a serious amount of long-term cash. Teams said to have interest in Crawford include the Indiana Pacers, Denver Nuggets, Miami Heat, Minnesota Timberwolves, Sacramento Kings and Dallas Mavericks.


see thats how it works

i put up , you ...well i dunno.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Yeah, yeah, yeah....*

I know.."sources insist". Thats code for explaining to your fans that you cheaped out. You did you work but I attach no significance to un-named sources. It has been my experience that there is nearly always an agenda behind such quotes.

Your hoopworld link contains nothing about Arenas.

I can go back and reference links to the articles and if I get time, I will. Making up articles to prove a point is cheating and there is no satisfaction in winning that way. Not saying I won the argument, only saying doing so by cheating is meaningless.

This has as much credibility as yours: From Hoopworld.com: "When Kiki started to head a different direction because Arenas’ price tag got too high, I was disappointed." 

With regards to JCs offers, I relent that there were more initial offers than I suspected. However, how serious they were is still a question in my mind. I recall no real offers other than the Knicks S&T, and I cannot find anything online that suggests any hard offers or proposals, so I have to be very suspicious. Besides, serious inquiries and getting close to talking about an offer are 2 different things. I suspect that there were no teams other than NY willing to talk money along the lines of NY. The Bulls for instance planned on offering 3.5million compared to NY which was nearly double that. I can easily imagine other 
teams not willing to approach that number and therefore break off talks.


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## da1nonly (May 8, 2006)

Lets get him, AND Kobe.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*so i guess watergate never happened? they never named a source*



alphaorange said:


> I know.."sources insist". Thats code for explaining to your fans that you cheaped out. You did you work but I attach no significance to un-named sources. It has been my experience that there is nearly always an agenda behind such quotes.
> 
> Your hoopworld link contains nothing about Arenas.
> 
> ...


because if the source isn't named it just not very credible .

you pretty much will say anything huh?

my hoopsworld link was about crawford and right above it i changed the subject to him....reading is fundamental.

and hoopsworld by the way is just a bunch of freelance guys most of whom aren't even paid for their work usually.

its not espn , they really are a glorified blog. and your snippet from them wasn't a quote just some guy's opinion of what happened.

the bulls once again offered the MLE not 3.5 but starting at 5.1 ( 6 Years 39 mil.) crawford said no and that they dhould deal him or he was taking the QO, other teams were willing to pay more , but the bulls said they would match any offer....the only way they were letting go of crawford was if you took a bad deal with him (JYD) for ending deals ...only the knicks were willing to pay that much in addition to paying his deal.

side note rumored but it obviously makes sense Thomas the following week signed another client of the agent that steered the deal of crawford for well above market value, that guy's name vin baker as a bonus.

that whittled away 9 to 1, not crawford's play but moreso the contract demands in addition to the agent steering plus the bulls demands, and in the end both teams were happy.


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