# Pre-season player rankings part 1



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

PG's

1. John Gilchrist, Maryland
2. Chris Paul, Wake Forest
3. Raymond Felton, North Carolina
4. Jarrett Jack, Georgia Tech
5. Dee Brown, Illinois
6. Travis Diener, Marquette
7. John Lucas, Oklahoma State
8. Aaron Miles, Kansas
9. Deron Williams, Illinois
10. Curtis Stinson, Iowa State
11. Carl Krauser, Pittsburgh
12. Chris Thomas, Notre Dame
13. Mario Moore, Vanderbilt
14. Drew Lavendar, Oklahoma
15. Fili Riviera, UTEP

Five to Watch: 
Mitchell Baldwin, Charlotte
Aaron Brooks, Oregon
Lamar Hurd, Oregon State
Tyrone Jackson, Arizona State
Sammy Mejia, DePaul

Five Freshmen to Watch: 
Sean Singletary, Virginia
Jordan Farmar, UCLA
Daniel Gibson, Texas
Ronnie Steele, Alabama
Darius Washington, Memphis


----------



## ugabball2k4 (Sep 10, 2004)

That's a good list. I really like John Lucas & Deron Williams, I think they could be better than Diener & Dee if they play their cards right. Also Kentucky has a couple of guards entering the SEC who people should keep an eye on.


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Just an FYI, the "five to watch" category isn't meant to be my next five, just five guys that I think could break out and make the list next season. 

I'll do wings and post players tomarrow when I get time.


----------



## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

Gilchrist at 1 :|


----------



## ugabball2k4 (Sep 10, 2004)

Gilchrist is a very good guard man, did you catch the ACC Tournament last year? He was killing them.


----------



## 22ryno (Mar 17, 2003)

Yeah he did good in the ACC tournament but he was also dominated by Will Bynum in the Georgia Tech game who at the time was a back up point guard.


----------



## Brian34Cook (Mar 26, 2003)

Deron Williams > Dee Brown but other than that I dont have anything wrong with this.


----------



## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Dee Brown is a 5'10" SG. Deron Williams is a 6'3" PG.

Deron Williams is the best PG in the nation, IMO.


----------



## HanesOnU (Nov 10, 2004)

Lucas is gonna be really good this year. Last year he averaged 15 points a game and had an assist to turnover ratio of 2.4/1. He also shot 45%.

He worked on his shot a ton in the offseason and he was already an amazing shooter in the clutch. He won like 2 or 3 games for Ok State last year in the last seconds. I don't think he missed a last second shot.


----------



## pharcyde (Jun 22, 2002)

Both Horton brothers are also worth mentioning. Daniel had a bad sophomore season at Michigan, regressing from his freshman year, but is he progresses this season like people thought he would in the past he could be pretty damn good. Jason will be handed the reigns at Mizzou as a freshman, and they do have some other good young players, so if things work out he could have an outstanding first year.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Where's Turner Battle (Buffalo), DeAndre Haynes (Kent State), Shaun Davis or Alex Acker (Pepperdine)?

All the best PG's do not come from the major conferences. There are sleepers in other leagues too.

Darren Brooks is a do everything type of player for SIU who can play the 1 or the 2.


----------



## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ugabball2k4</b>!
> Gilchrist is a very good guard man, did you catch the ACC Tournament last year? He was killing them.


He's a good guard, but he isn't better than Felton/Paul/Jack/Williams. Once he learns to dribble with his off hand and shoot pull up jumpers maybe we can talk but until then he is the 4th best in his conference.


----------



## ugabball2k4 (Sep 10, 2004)

Well he is way better than Felton, but that's not saying much.


----------



## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HeinzGuderian</b>!He's a good guard, but he isn't better than Felton/Paul/Jack/Williams.


Definitley agree. He's arguably a better scorer than Paul/Felton and maybe Jack, but those three are better _true_ PG's... No Chris Hernandez? ... Don't ya love it how people always look for a negative  Great job though.


----------



## ugabball2k4 (Sep 10, 2004)

Gilchrist is a true PG.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Gilchrist is better than Felton and Jack as well. 

Paul is not much better than Gilchrist if at all.

The best PG in America is Deron Williams.


----------



## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Gilchrist is better than Felton and Jack as well.
> 
> Paul is not much better than Gilchrist if at all.


Thats simply not true :no:


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HeinzGuderian</b>!
> 
> Thats simply not true :no:


Felton is so overrated by UNC fans it's ridiculous. He has not improved one bit. Gilchrist is literally like a young Sam Cassell. He has the most natural ability of any PG in the conference and he's learning from Gary Williams no less. He's terrific.


----------



## kansasalumn (Jun 9, 2002)

finally someone placed Aaron Miles on a top PG list. He is one of hte most underrated PG in the nations


----------



## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Gilchrist is literally like a young Sam Cassell.


You're comparing two different things. And if you don't think you are - you proved that you are by saying he's like Cassell. Cassell is the guy the brings the ball up so ya call him a PG if you want but that dude's out there to shoot. Old school definition of a PG - not Sam Cassell and not Gilchrist... I agree with you though - he good, real good.


----------



## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TonyM</b>!
> 
> 
> You're comparing two different things. And if you don't think you are - you proved that you are by saying he's like Cassell. Cassell is the guy the brings the ball up so ya call him a PG if you want but that dude's out there to shoot. Old school definition of a PG - not Sam Cassell and not Gilchrist... I agree with you though - he good, real good.


Gilchrist is as true a point guard you are going to find in the NCAA. People like to use the argument that because he scores well, he isn't a true point. Right now, Gilchrist is the best point guard in the nation, and one of the best overall players in the nation.

Last season Gilchrist averaged 15.4 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 5.0 apg, shot 47% from the field, and 38% from 3, as a sophomore. No one progresses his players better than Gary Williams. I wouldn't put a 18/7/6 season past Gilchrist. He's the top point right now and the sky is the limit.


----------



## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

Manny Quezeda is a big freshman point to look out for.


----------



## UKfan4Life (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> PG's
> 
> 1. John Gilchrist, Maryland
> ...


How can you not put Rajon Rondo under the five freshman to watch? The man had an awesome high school career, and a very stellar one even before he went to Oak Hill. His showings during the exhibition games and scrimmages only prove he's going to be one of the premier freshmen in the nation overall.


----------



## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> Right now, Gilchrist is the best point guard in the nation, and one of the best overall players in the nation.


I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Paul 25pts, 6assists, 4 rebs. Granted it was vs. GW, but yes, he is the best PG and player in the nation... And no, just because you score, doesn't mean you're not a true PG. But as far as running the team/getting assists/scoring, Gilchirst is beat.


----------



## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>TonyM</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Paul 25pts, 6assists, 4 rebs. Granted it was vs. GW, but yes, he is the best PG and player in the nation... And no, just because you score, doesn't mean you're not a true PG. But as far as running the team/getting assists/scoring, Gilchirst is beat.


Best player might be pushing it, but I agree he is better than Gilchrist. Jesus Gilchrist wouldnt cut my top 5 PGs...


----------



## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TonyM</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Paul 25pts, 6assists, 4 rebs. Granted it was vs. GW, but yes, he is the best PG and player in the nation... And no, just because you score, doesn't mean you're not a true PG. But as far as running the team/getting assists/scoring, Gilchirst is beat.


You're 100% correct. 1 game determines who the best player in the nation is.

Last year Paul averaged 14.8 ppg, 3.8 rpg, and 5.9 apg. Gilchrist had 15.4 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 5.0 apg. That was with Gilchrist playing with only one player older than a sophomore.

Of course there is always more than stats, though. Chris Paul is 6 foot 168 lbs, and the 6 foot is generous. He's a small player. The very opposite can be said of Gilchrist. At 6 foot 3 201 lbs, Gilchrist is one of, if not the strongest point in the nation. 

Paul is a great player, and maybe the #2 PG in the country, but he's neither the top point nor player.


----------



## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HeinzGuderian</b>!
> 
> Best player might be pushing it, but I agree he is better than Gilchrist. Jesus Gilchrist wouldnt cut my top 5 PGs...


Then who would?

And, please this time a little bit more back up than "That's simply not true."


----------



## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

Gilchrist played with one of the worst /youngest supporting casts last year of any of the top pgs.


----------



## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> You're 100% correct. 1 game determines who the best player in the nation is.


:laugh: 

Ah yes, take it to the extreme. What I'm saying is that coming in, he was voted as the top player on some of the major All-American lists. That first game could have been a fluke, but I doubt it. I'm pretty sure that's signs of things to come.



> Paul is a great player, and maybe the #2 PG in the country, but he's neither the top point nor player.


No. 2 behind Gilchrist? Please, put your bias aside.

As for best player. I laughed too when I first heard ESPN and others talking like he was, but now, I honestly can't think of any better player that's of the All-American status more valuable to his team. I can think of guys equally worthy (Hodge, Simien, Diogu, Roberts, Garcia), but none _more_ than Paul.


----------



## Middy (Jul 16, 2002)

Mustafa Shakur?

not having him in the top 15 is more than an oversight, its just plain stupid. 

23pts, 8 rebs, 7 assists. what else could you ask for. You will look like a fool for not making Staf a top 10 PG.


----------



## ugabball2k4 (Sep 10, 2004)

Sundiata Gaines could be a player for Dennis Felton this year.

To the guy above, are those Shakur's averages from last year? Dayum.


----------



## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TonyM</b>!
> 
> No. 2 behind Gilchrist? Please, put your bias aside.


You have still not said one single thing about either player's game. All you are saying is that Paul is better, but for no particular reason. 

There's this guy down the street. Name's Joey D. He's the best basketball player of all-time.


----------



## Jonesy (Nov 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> You're 100% correct. 1 game determines who the best player in the nation is.
> ...


You should give the rest of the statistics...

Paul: 
2.2/1 assist to turnover ratio
2.7 spg
50.0% fg percentage
46.4% 3pt percentage
84.1% ft percentage

Gilchrist: 
1.6/1 assist to turnover ratio
1.8 spg
47.4% fg percentage
38.4% 3pt percentage
70.2% ft percentage

... and all that as a freshman.


----------



## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

:stupid: Cross out stupid and put in "smart guy"

my new best friend said it all. actually, i just think Paul's better. although whoever said it is right - Paul's supporting cast is better. just my opinion.


----------



## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jonesy</b>!
> 
> 
> You should give the rest of the statistics...
> ...


And all that as a freshman with a superb supporting class. Gilchrist had a lot of talent around him last year, but very inexpereinced and inconsistent talent at that. He ran the show for them. He did everything.

Paul is a top notch point guard, make no doubt about it, but Gilchrist is better.


----------



## AzDave (Jul 2, 2004)

Shakur's numbers are just from last night, so take them with a grain of salt. Still, I think Mustafa will really shine this year. Last year he was overshadowed by Iggy, Hassan, Frye, and Salim...not to mention the (relative) lack of success the Cats had last year. Iguodala was our primary ball handler last year, while Mustafa deferred (way too much) to him and others. However, there were a couple games that showed me all I needed to see to know that he's one of the top pgs. 

The home game vs. Stanford, and @ SC to be specific. In both cases the Cats fell behind, and Shakur was deferring as usual, but toward the end of both games he was the only guy who seemed to believe we could make a comeback, and he played like it. It was a though he said "enough of this deferring bs, we need to win this game" and just took over. 

I can understand not including him on this list because his raw #'s from last year don't look very impressive, and if you didn't see much of UA he might not have stood out.

However, it is becoming quite clear that Mustafa is the best player on the Wildcats and will be on this type of list by the end of the season, if not sooner. Hopefully the Cats and Deacs meet in the PNIT finals so we can see how Paul and Shakur look against one another. The guy is a f'in stud and now that the Cats are basically his team, I think he'll prove it.


----------



## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> Gilchrist had a lot of talent around him last year, but very inexpereinced and inconsistent talent at that.


Ya, and that's why I said...



> Paul's supporting cast is better


and not, "Paul had a good team and Gilchrist didn't"



> but Gilchrist is better.


ok. i respect your opinion.

As for Shakur... I only saw the highlights on sportscenter. guy was a thief last night. again, i only saw a little, but I was impressed.


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Some people seem to have a hard time understanding how many good point guards there are this season. Shakur could have, probably should have, been on the list. He's certainly not a given, however. Look at the 15 I have and tell me who he's clearly better than. 

As for Rondo not making the freshmen to watch category, I just there are going to be some freshman PG's playing bigger roles than Rondo will. He'll probably back up Sparks most of the time. The five freshmen to watch are all stepping in and playing huge roles on potentially very good teams.


----------



## LionsFan01 (Aug 7, 2002)

Daniel Horton should be on there somewhere. He was outstanding in leading UM to the NIT Championship last season and will only get better with not only his own experiance but the continued improvement of the young players around him.


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

There is not much difference between the four ACC point guards, 

The only people that are wrong are the people that are saying one player is way better then the others. And surprise, surpirse, most of those fans are supporting Ray Felton. Overrating UNC individual talent once again.


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

IF, and that's a big if, Billy Edelin comes back to his form from last year, is he in the top 15?

Certainly he does not deserve to be their right now. But if all those personal issues had not occurred would he be in your top 15?


----------



## rhodyruckus (Dec 22, 2003)

I would add Jon Lucky from Rhode Island in your "freshmen to watch" list. He was injured so didn't play preseason, but played a majority of the season opener & put up 11 pts., 5 assists, 2-3 from 3-pt range. He's a tallish PG @ 6'5" and will be given every opportunity to get P.T. from the start. Dawan Robinson, the star point guard from last season, will be moved to his natural shooting guard position when he gets healthy.


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> IF, and that's a big if, Billy Edelin comes back to his form from last year, is he in the top 15?
> 
> Certainly he does not deserve to be their right now. But if all those personal issues had not occurred would he be in your top 15?


If Edelin had built upon his success late in the Syracuse's national championship run and was coming off a successful season, he would probably be there. Unfortunately, other than that stretch of games two seasons ago, we don't know much about Edelin. 

People just don't understand how many good point guards there are out there.


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> If Edelin had built upon his success late in the Syracuse's national championship run and was coming off a successful season, he would probably be there. Unfortunately, other than that stretch of games two seasons ago, we don't know much about Edelin.
> ...


Actually Edelin did a pretty good job of building upon his frosh success,

Last season, over about a dozen games, he essentially averaged (backing out the 2 games he played a few minutes because of personal reasons):
15 pts
5.5 assists
4.5 rebounds

He had a pretty successful season (pre-personal problems)

And please don't assume that I fail to understand how many PG's there are - I certainly do. It is the best crop in the last 10 years IMO.


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> 
> And please don't assume that I fail to understand how many PG's there are - I certainly do. It is the best crop in the last 10 years IMO.


I know that you know. It's the other people on this thread promoting largely unproven players that I am generally talking to.


----------



## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Middy</b>!
> Mustafa Shakur?
> 
> not having him in the top 15 is more than an oversight, its just plain stupid.
> ...


Shakur got absolutely humiliated today. He got lit up like a Christmas tree on defense, couldn't hit anything on offense, provided zero leadership and pouted on the bench as Arizona got waxed by Virginia today.

From Goazcats.com:



> *Mustafa Shakur- Grade F* I am stunned at Stafs performance today. Short of Jason Gardner missing about 50 straight shots vs UCLA in 2003, I don't know if I've ever seen a UA point guard play such a horrendous game. Staf was just not there today and I also caught him pouting on the bench during some TV timeouts. He was sloppy. Slow and ineffective on defense. Could not hit the broad side of a barn with his shot. And gave this team nothing. No leadership, no poise and no character. He deserves to be benched after this effort where he was totally dominated by the smaller, hungrier, less balleyhooed Singleton.
> 
> *********************
> 
> *UA Nonfactor Tonight- Shakur-* He did not look like a mediocre college point guard today, let alone an NBA prospect. He gave the Cats no leadership, no control, no poise and no heart today. Staf is a long way from entering the Pantheon of great UA point guards at this point in time.


I'm not sure leaving Shakur off the list is as foolish as you make it out to be.


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> I know that you know. It's the other people on this thread promoting largely unproven players that I am generally talking to.


Agreed - When fans say there player should be on the list, they should argue who he is better then on the list. The your on cracl or your an idiot responses are not that convincing.

So that's my challenge to you all.


----------



## dmase_24 (Feb 1, 2003)

how about joey graham outta ok state? he has really improved. and what about jameson curry as a freshman to watch? he looks impressive from what i've seen... just a few names to throw in the mix


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dmase_24</b>!
> how about joey graham outta ok state? he has really improved. and what about jameson curry as a freshman to watch? he looks impressive from what i've seen... just a few names to throw in the mix


Not point guards.


----------



## dmase_24 (Feb 1, 2003)

omfg lol no wonder. sorry guys... i guess i should actually take some more time in reading these posts! :banghead: i just looked at the topic and looked at the names and didnt see my man joey and thought somethin must be wrong but obviously not. i guess i didnt notice the trend of PGs lol thanks for catchin my mistake Jr. because i probably never would have


----------



## CP26 (May 8, 2003)

Not like this matters or anything but I just had to post this.


----------



## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

You're right. It doesn't matter.


----------



## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

Very dominating performance by Gilchrist tonight, scoring 16 points on 7/11 shooting, grabbing 11 rebounds, dishing out 7 assists, and picking up 5 steals while holding Washington to 9 points on 4/12 shooting. 

Through his first 3 games, Gilchrist is averaging 14, 7, and 7.


----------



## bigalw1414 (May 20, 2003)

Why is Nate Robinson note mentioned? Do you guys not consider him to be a point guard?


----------



## TheChampion (Nov 28, 2004)

did you read the article about nate robinson in todays USA today? it was pretty good. it talked about how he used to be a 2-sport star (bball & football). i didnt finish reading up on it though... but anyways, you are right, he should be mentioned as long as he is considered a point guard. he is only 5'9'' but has over a 40" vertical. he obviously is very athletic. he is averaging 21.5 ppg, 4.3 rpg & 4.8 apg. not too shabby


----------



## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Another sleeper PG*

Watch out for Tack Minor at LSU. He is super quick and can pass and score with the best of them. Other than that:

I'd put my list of the top PG's as this:
1. Chris Paul
2. Raymond Felton
3. Jarrett Jack
4. John Gilchrist


----------

