# does hinrich suffer from racism?



## Bull_Market (Aug 13, 2005)

foxsports.com just came up with a top 50 list. only one bull on that list, at #44. but anyway - look what it says:


"44. Kirk Hinrich, Chicago Bulls: A younger, *more athletic version of Jeff Hornacek*, he led the Bulls into the playoffs and continues to blossom as their floor leader and an excellent scorer going to the basket all the way out to 3-point range"

now what the heck does that mean? if he's more athletic, then why compare him to hornacek? why does kirk always have to be compared to white guys? especially when he's athletic, can slash inside, has some nice crossover moves, and at 6'3'', he can dunk in a game. 

why can't kirk ever be compared to a black guy? i mean - was mark jackson more physically gifted than kirk? 

also - a YOUNGER version of hornacek??? that's the dumbest line i've ever read. younger than the present hornacek? i think hinrich is a thousand times better than a 40 year old hornacek, so exactly what does that line mean. i mean - surely hornacek WAS 23 years old at one point, right?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Yeah. I see on the main board people talking about being a sharpshooter, which isn't true but people assume because he is white that he has a deadly stroke. Then people assume he isn't athletic for the same reason. Hinrich is a lot like Joe Dumars to me in his style of play and his defense. Hinrich is more well rounded as a player though, better passer, playmaker and rebounder.


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

Just another fine example of the reverse discrimination the white man must endure.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

Joe Dumars, yeah, I like that comparison. Hinrich does have some Dumars in him. Solid both offensively and defensively.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

a direct quote from Kirk on the very subject, from the ESPN Magazine article last year:


*On the other hand, he'll tell you that it can get bothersome to always be compared to a white player. "There's so few white guys in this league, that's what happens," he says. "I realize it, but what do you do? You'll never see anybody compare me to a black player."*


http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2009362&num=3

(an ESPN Insider article, yes, and i posted a direct quote - but it did appear in the print issue first)


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## jimmy (Aug 20, 2002)

Bull_Market said:


> also - a YOUNGER version of hornacek??? that's the dumbest line i've ever read. younger than the present hornacek? i think hinrich is a thousand times better than a 40 year old hornacek, so exactly what does that line mean. i mean - surely hornacek WAS 23 years old at one point, right?



lol


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

This works in all ways. Black players are always compared to black players. White players are always compared to white playera. Chinese players are always compared to Chinese players. European players are..........etc etc etc. It transcends all races and many aspects of life, such as music, for example. That's just the way it is with humans. I'm sure we can all acknowledge that subconsciously and instinctively, we do this. 


What annoys me is that, when there isn't a perfect comparison withou switching race, they try and force the issue, as with above. That's annoying,


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

A better, in-race comparison is Mark Price. 










Awwww. Isn't that Pax? They're arm in arm! No wonder he loves Hinrich so much... :grinning: 

Hinrich IS a good 3-pt shooter, by the way, it's just that he's the primary ball-handler (regardless of who is "running the point"), and he doesn't really take most of his outside shots from created opportunities off the ball. Usually it's him shooting off a screen, or jacking a bold shot all by himself, or something like that.

You could say the same for Mark Price, but I think Hinrich will probably be catching up in the 3-pt category. One area where Kirk could be more like Mark is in FT shooting. One area where Kirk is much more than Mark is in athleticism, but I think that's almost a result of just being a point guard in this decade, and not in the last.

But I think Joe Dumars might be a better comparison, yes.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> A better, in-race comparison is Mark Price.


Elbow to the rib cage?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

He's clearly a white version of Jamaal Crawford, only he shoots a little less.


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## mr.ankle20 (Mar 7, 2004)

mark price was really good in his prime , he could been a hall of famer if he stayed healthy


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

DaBullz said:


> He's clearly a white version of Jamaal Crawford, only he shoots a little less.


A smarter version of Jamal Crawford who shoots less, and plays *a lot* more defense. Decent comparison.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> A smarter version of Jamal Crawford who shoots less, and plays *a lot* more defense. Decent comparison.


He's a white version of Gilbert Arenas without the shot blocking ability.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

DaBullz said:


> He's a white version of Gilbert Arenas without the shot blocking ability.


He is? I'll take 26, 5 and 5 from a guy who averages .02 less blocks and plays ten times better defense.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> He is? I'll take 26, 5 and 5 from a guy who averages .02 less blocks and plays ten times better defense.


You're so ... serious.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

DaBullz said:


> You're so ... serious.


Nah, I just feel like you could have been more creative.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

ShamBulls said:


> This works in all ways. Black players are always compared to black players. White players are always compared to white playera. Chinese players are always compared to Chinese players. European players are..........etc etc etc. It transcends all races and many aspects of life, such as music, for example. That's just the way it is with humans. I'm sure we can all acknowledge that subconsciously and instinctively, we do this.
> 
> 
> What annoys me is that, when there isn't a perfect comparison withou switching race, they try and force the issue, as with above. That's annoying,


Sports reporters (except Mike!) tend to think and write in cliches. Remember all those articles that said Paxson was drafting himself? Pax responded that Hinrich was far more talented than he was.

And why can't sports sites and newspapers spell Hinrich correctly?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

They say you shouldn't judge someone till you walk a mile in their shoes, so I hearby offer to switch places with whichever young, twenty-something millionaire athlete is willing to let me take up his personal burden of dealing with racial adversity and huge bank account.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Hinrich is a white version of Damon Stoudamire.


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## Krstic All-Star (Mar 9, 2005)

DaBullz said:


> Elbow to the rib cage?



Looks like a good old-fashioned Square Dance step to me


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Hinrich is the white version of John Stockton...


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Bull_Market said:


> foxsports.com just came up with a top 50 list. only one bull on that list, at #44. but anyway - look what it says:
> 
> 
> "44. Kirk Hinrich, Chicago Bulls: A younger, more athletic version of Jeff Hornacek, he led the Bulls into the playoffs and continues to blossom as their floor leader and *an excellent scorer going to the basket all the way out to 3-point range"*


Whoever this white guy is, he definitely does not play for the Bulls.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

SPMJ said:


> Whoever this white guy is, he definitely does not play for the Bulls.



LOL! I was thinking that.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

He's a white version of Shaquille O'Neal, except he has a somewhat worse post game, doesn't block quite as many shots, and doesn't dominate every single player in the NBA, but he can shoot free throws better and has a little better range on his shot.

And he's a foot shorter. And a hundred pounds or so lighter.

And he plays a different position.

And he doesn't name himself things. Or try to tell Jim Gray how to spell podiatrist.

And he's not a cop.


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## Anima (Jun 3, 2003)

No one has compared Kirk to Deanna Nolan yet? You guys are slipping.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

This has all gone a bit Bill Walton.......


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

To bring this back to the original post....I think that Hinrich is very similar to Billups. Kirk passes the ball a bit better, but Chauncy has that extra something that comes out in big games.


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## canadianbullsfan07 (Sep 19, 2005)

> Hinrich is the white version of John Stockton...


Umm... maybe a younger version of Stockton, but last time I checked Stockton wasn't African-American. He's as white as a guy can get.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Kirk is like Deanna Nolan. Feel better?


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## Anima (Jun 3, 2003)

I would but I expect none of you know who she is.

Deanna Nolan


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Does comparing a black basketball player to a black basketball player, or a white basketball player to a white basketball player constitute racism? Racism is some pretty serious ****. I'm not sure comparing Kirk Hinrich to Jeff Hornacek qualifies. 

If it does, I better go back and edit posts wherein I wrote that Dwyane Wade attacks the rim like no one since MJ. 

On the other hand, I have repeatedly compared Deng to Bird. So maybe I'm not a racist after all. I might have trouble sleeping tonight now that I feel so conflicted.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

canadianbullsfan07 said:


> Umm... maybe a younger version of Stockton, but last time I checked Stockton wasn't African-American. He's as white as a guy can get.


Okay, I meant he is the white version of the black Joe Dumars.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

How's Gary Payton for a comparison? Not the HOF version of Payton, more the pre All-Star version. Average on the scoring end, fantastic defense, runs the team well, good ball-control.

Gary Payton in 93-94 posted: 16.5 ppg, 3.3 reb, 6.0 assists, 2.1 turnovers, 2.29 steals, 50% FG, 27% 3-pt, 59% FT.

Hinrich in 04-05 posted: 15.7 ppg, 3.9 reb, 6.4 assists, 2.3 turnovers, 1.6 steals, 40% FG, 35% 3-pt, 79% FT.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

canadianbullsfan07 said:


> Umm... maybe a younger version of Stockton, but last time I checked Stockton wasn't African-American. He's as white as a guy can get.


I went to school with an African-American Canadian


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

yodurk said:


> How's Gary Payton for a comparison? Not the HOF version of Payton, more the pre All-Star version. Average on the scoring end, fantastic defense, runs the team well, good ball-control.
> 
> Gary Payton in 93-94 posted: 16.5 ppg, 3.3 reb, 6.0 assists, 2.1 turnovers, 2.29 steals, 50% FG, 27% 3-pt, 59% FT.
> 
> Hinrich in 04-05 posted: 15.7 ppg, 3.9 reb, 6.4 assists, 2.3 turnovers, 1.6 steals, 40% FG, 35% 3-pt, 79% FT.


I like the Dumars or Price comparisons better.

Payton was in a way different league than Hinrich as a defender -- imagine Ron Artest playing the point, and you get an idea of how Payton was back then. He would completely take a team out of its offense, and a lot of coaches wouldn't even let their point bring the ball up the floor against him. He won a DPOY not too long after 93-94, and I think all of us can agree the possibility of that for Kirk is nothing but a pipedream.

I will grant you that they were statistically similar offensive players, but with pretty different styles. Payton used to post up all the time when he was young, and he scored a bunch in transition as well.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> I like the Dumars or Price comparisons better.
> 
> Payton was in a way different league than Hinrich as a defender -- imagine Ron Artest playing the point, and you get an idea of how Payton was back then. He would completely take a team out of its offense, and a lot of coaches wouldn't even let their point bring the ball up the floor against him. He won a DPOY not too long after 93-94, and I think all of us can agree the possibility of that for Kirk is nothing but a pipedream.
> 
> I will grant you that they were statistically similar offensive players, but with pretty different styles. Payton used to post up all the time when he was young, and he scored a bunch in transition as well.


I admit I didn't see alot of the young Gary Payton, other than his time in the Finals against the Bulls in '96 (in fact, I'm not much of an NBA historian in general since I never followed until I was about 17). I wasn't aware he posted guys up back then; I was under the impression that he was more about quickness/athleticism in his youth, then as he reached his prime, he began to use more saavy such as posting up other PG's (which is rare nowadays).


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Yeah Scott:

Back in the day, Payton was a beast. Payton's genius was in his ability to read offenses and play passing lanes. He must have worked his *** off in the film room. I always thought it was interesting how as a man, he was completely inarticulate -- barely able to connect sentences -- but, his knowledge for the game in that context was unrivaled. 

I'm not sure Artest is good comparison. Crazy Ron is more of a lockdown man defender who dominates through his physical gifts.

But, I completely agree with your underlying point. Payton had special skills, that are out of Hinrich's league.


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## canadianbullsfan07 (Sep 19, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Okay, I meant he is the white version of the black Joe Dumars.


Oh, ok then, never mind. You just made it sound like John Stockton was a black guy.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

canadianbullsfan07 said:


> Oh, ok then, never mind. You just made it sound like John Stockton was a black guy.


Yeah. This thread went out the window with all the comparisons. Don't take any of my comparisons seriously, except Joe Dumars, because that's pretty on point I think.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

You don't even have to know history to see that Payton is not only a smart player but is still better than Hinrich. I'm not saying I would start a franchise with the current Payton over Hinrich but if you watch the Celtics bulls game this past year, he was just dominating him in the post. One of few PG's who can do that.

Dumars is a good comparison.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> Yeah Scott:
> 
> Back in the day, Payton was a beast. Payton's genius was in his ability to read offenses and play passing lanes. He must have worked his *** off in the film room. I always thought it was interesting how as a man, he was completely inarticulate -- barely able to connect sentences -- but, his knowledge for the game in that context was unrivaled.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean to compare Artest and Payton physically. But in addition to the passing-lane mayhem you mention, Payton *did* lock down his own man, and in nasty fashion. When he was going full force, it was difficult for even the best point guards to advance the ball against him, let alone get by or effectively initiate offense. That's why he gave Jordan such a hard time in 96 -- if MJ tried to dribble facing GP, he couldn't go anywhere, and GP was strong enough to stop MJ from backing him down.


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

Hinrich is soooooo Joe Dumars....

Particularly if you look at Joe Dumars photo negatives


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> I didn't mean to compare Artest and Payton physically. But in addition to the passing-lane mayhem you mention, Payton *did* lock down his own man, and in nasty fashion. When he was going full force, it was difficult for even the best point guards to advance the ball against him, let alone get by or effectively initiate offense. That's why he gave Jordan such a hard time in 96 -- if MJ tried to dribble facing GP, he couldn't go anywhere, and GP was strong enough to stop MJ from backing him down.


I never thought Payton played Jordan all that well 

In fact I always thought Jordan prettty well pimp slapped him and I believe that was because Payton was mentally mature enough at the time to handle MJ.. I always felt that MJ had him spooked in the head

From memory .. Jordan always said JoeD was always the guy that played him toughest and that always gave him the greatest challenge


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Machinehead said:


> I never thought Payton played Jordan all that well
> 
> In fact I always thought Jordan prettty well pimp slapped him and I believe that was because Payton was mentally mature enough at the time to handle MJ.. I always felt that MJ had him spooked in the head
> 
> From memory .. Jordan always said JoeD was always the guy that played him toughest and that always gave him the greatest challenge


You don't think Payton played Jordan well in Games 3-6 of the 96 Finals, when Karl finally realized it would probably be best to check MJ with his best defender?

I've never seen Jordan held in check by a single defender that way. Dumars, remember, had a lot of help in guarding Mike.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> You don't think Payton played Jordan well in Games 3-6 of the 96 Finals, when Karl finally realized it would probably be best to check MJ with his best defender?


Duh..( as to the Glove being the Supes best defender and most appropriate guy to take him )

And no I don't remember Glove's capacity to hamper him being super effective or memorable ( which is why I don't remember )

What I do remember was Glove's feeble attempts to start trying to mind f-ck MJ when MJ just kept busting him down ..which just fired up MJ some more to rub Glove's nose in it some more. Glove gave his best and MJ had to work but to me it always seemed as though MJ was in control of the contest and could do whatever the f'k he wanted. No shame in that though. Plenty have fallen by that wayside before the fabled Glove


When I think of memorable scraps on involving MJ I think of Joe Dumars . I also think John Starks played him well through the 93 series



> I've never seen Jordan held in check by a single defender that way. Dumars, remember, had a lot of help in guarding Mike.


And Payton didn't ?

Maybe JoeD had a _ lot more_ help in the Pistons defensive depth but the last time I checked they only let 5 players on the floor at any one time 

Anyway..I'll take the word from the man himself who has categorically said that Dumars was the toughest guard that came to cover him


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> Duh..( as to the Glove being the Supes best defender and most appropriate guy to take him )
> 
> And no I don't remember Glove's capacity to hamper him being super effective or memorable ( which is why I don't remember )
> 
> ...


I remember Jordan saying that a lot in the early nineties, which is before the games I'm talking about.

Here is a great, long, in-depth piece that just goes to show exactly how much help Dumars had in covering MJ (while admitting his individual defensive prowess, which I'm not denying). Again, what made Payton's D on Jordan so great in 1996 was that Seattle did not at all have this kind of comprehensive, double/triple-team at all costs plan to stop MJ. Payton accomplished much of it on his own.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/flashbacks/jordan/891106/



> When Jordan posts up near the basket, Detroit typically puts three men on him, with Dumars most often behind him, using his strong hips and legs to "body" Jordan away from the basket. When the entry pass comes in from the point guard, Thomas leaves that guard and double-teams Jordan. If that means the point guard is free, so be it. Meanwhile, another defender, perhaps Laimbeer or Salley, will have come over and planted himself in the lane, maybe on the baseline side, maybe toward the middle. Dumars will then turn Jordan toward that help. Jordan loves the baseline. "Even though there's less room down there, I can be more creative," he says. But by and large, the Pistons take it away from him.
> 
> When Jordan comes off a screen set near the baseline -- his most frequent maneuver when he's playing shooting guard -- a host of Jordan Rules come into play. Dumars must follow him around the screen -- no matter if he has to go into the bleachers -- to prevent Jordan from making a backdoor cut and receiving an alley-oop pass for an almost certain dunk. The Piston -- usually Laimbeer -- guarding the Bull setting the pick will step out to make Jordan receive the ball farther from the basket. In addition -- and this is important -- that man will guard against Jordan's making a "tight curl" off the top of the screen and suddenly looping back into the middle to take a short pass on the dead run, a circumstance that is almost always disastrous for the defense.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

Ok admittedly this is completely unrelated, but speaking of white people that Kirk is compared to, doesn't he strike a resemblence to Bob Dylan on the cover of his album The Times They Are A-Changin'?











Tangled up in boo?

Or am I the only one that sees it?


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## WestHighHawk (Jun 28, 2003)

O.M.G.! There is a slight resemblance! 

Let's just hope Kirk doesn't start looking more and more like Dylan as he ages


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

Heh, I like that one.


Consider it stolen.


:worship:


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## mr.ankle20 (Mar 7, 2004)

spongyfungy said:


> You don't even have to know history to see that Payton is not only a smart player but is still better than Hinrich. I'm not saying I would start a franchise with the current Payton over Hinrich but if you watch the Celtics bulls game this past year, he was just dominating him in the post. One of few PG's who can do that.
> 
> Dumars is a good comparison.



you have to be kidding me , you would the older declining gp over kirk. Is defense has really regress the past the 3 years. I think he also a overrated defender. Look at his defense when he was with the lakers , it was awful . Every starting point guard would had a career a against him


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

> you would the older declining gp over kirk




.........





> I'm not saying I would start a franchise with the current Payton over Hinrich




:raised_ey


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

lorgg said:


> Just another fine example of the reverse discrimination the white man must endure.


haha Nice.. One.. :boohoo: I love that Smile for some reason.. Anyways, who cares.. Kirk Hinrich is an all-world talent to have on your team. It doesnt matter who anybody compares him too. At the end of the day Hinrich is gonna be good.. He is strong.. and I think next year he gotta start posting up and taking advantage of his size. A Mark Jackson comparsion I dont think so because Mark was a great assist man. Hinrich doesnt have his passing ability. I think Joe Dumars is a solid solid comparison for Hinrich.


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> Does comparing a black basketball player to a black basketball player, or a white basketball player to a white basketball player constitute racism? Racism is some pretty serious ****. I'm not sure comparing Kirk Hinrich to Jeff Hornacek qualifies.
> 
> If it does, I better go back and edit posts wherein I wrote that Dwyane Wade attacks the rim like no one since MJ.
> 
> On the other hand, I have repeatedly compared Deng to Bird. So maybe I'm not a racist after all. I might have trouble sleeping tonight now that I feel so conflicted.


Solid post


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## Nobull1 (Oct 6, 2002)

Joe dumars is a pretty good comparison but dumars was a better shooter. But both are overrated players.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Does Kirk Hinrich suffer from racism? Yes

I even admit I didnt think an undersized white boy would make it. But he has won me over.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> Does Kirk Hinrich suffer from racism? Yes
> 
> I even admit I didnt think an undersized white boy would make it. But he has won me over.


Does he suffer or benefit?

(He got punked by Arenas in the playoffs... one of the three most impressive blocks I've seen in my life. The other two being Reggie getting his shot blocked, and David Thompson blocking 2 or 3 of Bill Walton's shots in the NCAA tourney).


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## Nobull1 (Oct 6, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Does he suffer or benefit?
> 
> (He got punked by Arenas in the playoffs... one of the three most impressive blocks I've seen in my life. The other two being Reggie getting his shot blocked, and David Thompson blocking 2 or 3 of Bill Walton's shots in the NCAA tourney).


Amen


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

He suffers and he benefits. I get alot of flak for my Skiles comments but he gets the green light from Skiles more based on the way he looks I feel then his game. So he benefits there. But he is a good player and he doesnt get the league wide respect because, lets face it, he is a dorky looking white kid. So he suffers. I feel he suffers more then benefits, either way, its racism.


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## Cyanobacteria (Jun 25, 2002)

Is it annoying that scouting reports are shallow enough to compare the vast majority of white players to white players and black players to black players? yes

When Kirk was a kid, did he get picked up for a run after other kids that he was better than because of his appearance? probably

Is it on the same order of magnitude as to what many minorities are subjected, even now, every day in this country? No

Bottom line: Kirk has probably encountered a great deal of racism, but I wouldn't exactly say he _suffers_ from it.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> Does he suffer or benefit?
> 
> (He got punked by Arenas in the playoffs...


KH should have gone up strong -- what a dumb, costly mistake. Regardless, it's not as if he was continually punked by Arenas. KH was probably the best guard on the floor the entire series.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

VincentVega said:


> KH should have gone up strong -- what a dumb, costly mistake. Regardless, it's not as if he was continually punked by Arenas. KH was probably the best guard on the floor the entire series.


No no VV, that play was the only one that mattered. 

Sometimes I think DaBullz roots for Hinrich/Paxson/Skiles to fail. Maybe the Bulls fan thing is a cover.


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## j0se (Sep 22, 2005)

You guys are race obsessed.


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## Chicago N VA (Oct 31, 2003)

Kirk Hinrich suffers from racism ....... I find this thinking ridiculous. 


Someone please go find David Duke, someone has to deal with inequality!


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