# Should of Traded Dirk When He Had Some Value!



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Been a while since I've posted but after a 2nd early exit from the playoffs I have to vent. Once again the 2006-2007 NBA MVP is a non-factor in a playoff series. As the star of a team that is considered a contender I would expect more. This goes back to thousands of posts that Dirk is this or Dirk is that but its a fact, he's past his prime... he will not learn how to play solid D nor gain the aggressiveness needed to succeed as a premier player in the NBA. Similar to what people say Yao Ming lacks from time to time looking timid or awkward when pressured like a young euro player in his 1st NBA game all over again. This brings me to the title of this thread... too bad everyone has seen Dirk struggle when most need as he's aged to the point of no where to go but down hill. There is little or no value here. It would be like building a team around Rashard Lewis or Peja. You can't do it. You build a team around a player who is complete. One who is an example of excellence at his position. Yes he is a mismatch nightmare for other teams... no wait... everyone has figured out how to guard him if you've watched the Mavs play against the best of the West this year. 


Others will look to the Kidd trade for blame but Cuban's desire to stay with the German Jumpshooter has sealed our destiny as a Playoff under achiever. Jason Kidd cannot be our saviour. He's at his best with an athletic team around him. Our veteran (or as I would call it old and slow.. but veteran is more plesant word for over the hill) players aren't active like the young kids Kidd has had success with in the playoffs in past years. 

I'm tired of his "strong move to the basket" looking like an awkward uncontrolled attempt at drawing the foul, a la Manu (the best actor in the leauge). 

I'm tired of his half other word for a donkey defense.

I'm tired of other teams nobodies punking our star player. 

I'm tired of winning meaningless regular season games just to have REAL NBA stars out shine someone earning a max contract.

And I'm tired of posting for now... I will return...


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## VeN (May 10, 2005)

all true


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## VeN (May 10, 2005)

well regardless, they have a LOT of work to do this offseason.


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## xray (Feb 21, 2005)

Good God Steve, it's been forever!!! eace:

You guys know my feelings - 3-4 years ago when his value was overrated - that's the time to feel out the market. Now, probably not what you would've got back then.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

dirk was a non factor in the playoffs? you must have been watching a different series than me. the non factors were kidd, stackhouse, dampier, and most of all howard.

three guys came to play for dallas and those were dirk, terry, and bass. no one else even bothered showing up.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

if you guys feel that upset, dirk for melo then.......them nugget fans wanna blow the team up anyway.


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## VeN (May 10, 2005)

jho, stack, and filler?


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## edwardcyh (Dec 13, 2005)

I will still vote "no" because Dirk's value hasn't really dropped much.

Dirk has had plenty of excuses for the collapse of past 2 years:

1. Nellie knows him better than he knows himself.
2. The rest of the supporting cast never bothered to show.

Plus, with a salary of:
$18,077,904 08-09
$19,795,714 09-10
$21,513,524 10-11

It's still a bargain for a 7 footer who churns out 24/10 night in and night out.

His value is still up there.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Why is Dirk getting heat for this? He was solid in general.

Why not talk about trading Kidd, Howard, or Stackhouse? You know, those guys who didn't show up?


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Drewbs said:


> Why is Dirk getting heat for this? He was solid in general.
> 
> Why not talk about trading Kidd, Howard, or Stackhouse? You know, those guys who didn't show up?


Stackhouse and Kidd couldn't get them anything. Howard has some value, but they wouldn't get anyone who could make them better.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Dirk a non-factor ? What series did you watch ? Him and Bass were the only ones who showed some consistency during the series. Dirk is not the problem, but I think forcing him to be the #1 option every night isn't going to work anymore because teams have found ways to take away the spacing we had. It did work in 06 because we had a better defense and the players around him were complementing his game, this hasn't been the case since. I'd say trade him if there is a good deal, but that would have to include great young players and/or draft picks because he is still a Top 15, maybe Top 10 player in the league and in his prime.

Other than that I totally agree with your post and hope you'll stay around.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

24 and 10 is great when your able to stop someone too. Otherwise your 24 points are erased by giving up just as many and your 10 boards are a wash from the inability to actually block out. Incomplete players aren't worth building a team around. Dirk is still a constant defensive liability on the floor and any decent team in the league can and has slowed him offensively just by putting an athletic guard on him. People say why blame Dirk? Well as the 2006 MVP I expect a little more. Period. I understand that other players did under perform but it all starts with the face of the team being an overrated euro baller who's shortcomings make him better fit as a number 2 guy on a team. 

As for the old tired legs surrounding Dirk, I can't say any team will actually trade for them and give us anything of value. Especially after they've looked so old and tired two playoff series in a row. Has Damp ever been a factor when not guarding someone as big and slow as he is? It's not the 90s anymore.. Stack and Kidd are two steps slower than this whole generation of players in the league now. 

Here's the question... Would Harris been able to slow Chris Paul from his domination of the Mavs? Would Diop's above average athleticism for a big been more effective guarding the Hornets' undersized bigs? Lots of ifs and buts.. but if it wasn't for them this board wouldn't be around 

As for Howard, he's feeds off the success of other players. He has become better at creating his own shot over the years but is still not a viable offensive weapon yet. 

Side note... Raja Bell sure turned out alright. Too bad we let someone who can actually defend premier guards in this league walk.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

His defense on West wasn't terrible and you can't say he wasn't trying because he obviously was. Let's not forget that he still can't be a hundred percent with the high ankle sprain he suffered, it's impossible to make a full recovery while competing at the highest level. He also deserves some of the blame, but if you consider that he has had a PER of 26 in the playoffs there isn't really much more you can expect from him. 

In a perfect world he is probably better suited to be a second option because it is hard to create for a seven footer who doesn't like to post up. Having said all that I still think it is time for both to move on unless there is a deal that nods a superstar while keeping, that of course is totally unrealistic like I mentioned a few times before. It's probably in the best interest of both to make a decision because at the end of the day we still haven't won that championship and that is what it's all about.


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## VeN (May 10, 2005)

stevemc said:


> Side note... Raja Bell sure turned out alright. Too bad we let someone who can actually defend premier guards in this league walk.


come on, thats the definition of hindsight. when he was here he stunk the place up on D and O. I remember he cut an interview a season ago where he said he worked hard before he joined the suns on improving his D.


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## Redeemed (Feb 2, 2008)

He still has value, The Pacers would give you Jermaine O'Neal and Shawne Williams for him.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

DienerTime said:


> He still has value, The Pacers would give you Jermaine O'Neal and Shawne Williams for him.


:raised_ey


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

croco said:


> His defense on West wasn't terrible and you can't say he wasn't trying because he obviously was. Let's not forget that he still can't be a hundred percent with the high ankle sprain he suffered, it's impossible to make a full recovery while competing at the highest level. He also deserves some of the blame, but if you consider that he has had a PER of 26 in the playoffs there isn't really much more you can expect from him.


Thats just it tho... I do expect more. This is where Amazing is supposed to happen right? True super stars find a way to make big things happen regardless of injuries, slumping teammates, questionable coaching etc. So with out this the other option is to try and be a well rounded team like the Spurs and Pistons. We're not the Spurs or Pistons as much as Avery has tried to gear us in that direction. 


croco said:


> In a perfect world he is probably better suited to be a second option because it is hard to create for a seven footer who doesn't like to post up. Having said all that I still think it is time for both to move on unless there is a deal that nods a superstar while keeping, that of course is totally unrealistic like I mentioned a few times before. It's probably in the best interest of both to make a decision because at the end of the day we still haven't won that championship and that is what it's all about.


I agree.

Now for the outlandish trade portion of my post... This wouldn't give us that super star to save us from playoff early exits but would be a step in the right direct of building a Spurs/Pistons type team.

Dirk to Toronto for Bosh... at least Bosh can score with his back to the basket and blocks shots despite his inability to bulk up like most people say he needs to do (he's still young tho). Dirk could benefit from playing Euro ball in the leastern division with the other foreign kids up there. Just a thought...


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

VeN said:


> come on, thats the definition of hindsight. when he was here he stunk the place up on D and O. I remember he cut an interview a season ago where he said he worked hard before he joined the suns on improving his D.


Your absolutely 100% correct but its the case of letting youth walk and over paying our old tired legs that has us in the boat we're in. He was actually showing promise in his last year with the Mavs. Nothing too amazing but it was enough to where some us around the boards at the time didn't like seeing him go.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

DienerTime said:


> He still has value, The Pacers would give you Jermaine O'Neal and Shawne Williams for him.


Don't know about Shawne Williams but I'd take O'Neal for sure. We'd actually have someone using the that colored box area near the basket... what's that called again? Been so long since a Mav used it I forgot what it's called...


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## xray (Feb 21, 2005)

The Mavs would flourish if they could add a power player and relegate Dirk to #2 status, where his scoring would probably increase to 26-30 ppg because of the defensive attention the other star would garnish. That's of course easier said than done - we've got pieces, but they're overvalued. 

I think we can all agree that Dirk is still the most in-demand piece on the roster. If Cuban is willing to break up with his boyfriend, there could be some decent pieces added, imo.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Sometimes I wonder if its a whole marketing ploy to keep the hicks in and around Dallas remotely interested in basketball by keeping Dirk around.


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## xray (Feb 21, 2005)

Adding a monster that could rip down the backboard would have more people interested, imo. :raised_ey


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

DienerTime said:


> He still has value, The Pacers would give you Jermaine O'Neal and Shawne Williams for him.


lol. That's not having value if the Mavs only get players of that nature in any deal.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

stevemc said:


> Thats just it tho... I do expect more. This is where Amazing is supposed to happen right? True super stars find a way to make big things happen regardless of injuries, slumping teammates, questionable coaching etc. So with out this the other option is to try and be a well rounded team like the Spurs and Pistons. We're not the Spurs or Pistons as much as Avery has tried to gear us in that direction.


if you'd posted this last year when dirk was terrible in the playoffs, you may have had a point. i don't understand how this season suddenly killed dirk's value. if anything did, it was his meltdown in the playoffs last year and him actually showing up this year in the playoffs and playing well should help it.


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## edwardcyh (Dec 13, 2005)

stevemc said:


> Here's the question... Would Harris been able to slow Chris Paul from his domination of the Mavs?


To answer your question with another question:

Would Harris be able to slow BARON DAVIS from his domination of the Mavs?

Kidd sure slowed that over-sized guard....

What if Dallas ended up play UTA and did not make the Kidd trade, would you be wondering if Dallas should have made the trade to secure that big guard (Kidd) to slow down Deron?


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> if you'd posted this last year when dirk was terrible in the playoffs, you may have had a point. i don't understand how this season suddenly killed dirk's value. if anything did, it was his meltdown in the playoffs last year and him actually showing up this year in the playoffs and playing well should help it.


It's the back to back melt downs and him being a hair under 30 years old now that leads me to believe his value is less than last years. 

It's the 1st round curse KG faced in Minny.. but with a far more talented roster. It makes the star of a team look far less impressive if he can't put his team on his back and take you somewhere in the playoffs. Tmac gets the same treatment.. Prior to the label of unable to win in the playoffs was bestowed upon him he was seen as a much hotter commodity.

Anyone know the last meaningful game Dirk has taken over like someone with an MVP trophy should?


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

edwardcyh said:


> To answer your question with another question:
> 
> Would Harris be able to slow BARON DAVIS from his domination of the Mavs?
> 
> ...


but kidd is no longer a good defender and harris would be a better job than him defending any guard.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

I say we trade the Dirk, Kidd, & the FDLS mess in West Texas to Utah for Boozer and Deron. Might need to ad a filler on Utah's side but the FDLS Mormons can't be making much a year...


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## edwardcyh (Dec 13, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> but kidd is no longer a good defender and harris would be a better job than him defending any guard.


ummmm.... did you see Baron Davis abuse Devin last playoff?

How about Deron dropping 41 points on him earlier this season?

How about Kidd holding Baron to 7-17 and 8-17 in two meetings, and 7-16 for Deron?

Do Baron and Deron just have "bad" games against Kidd? :whistling:


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## edwardcyh (Dec 13, 2005)

stevemc said:


> I say we trade the Dirk, Kidd, & the FDLS mess in West Texas to Utah for Boozer and Deron. Might need to ad a filler on Utah's side but the FDLS Mormons can't be making much a year...


I'd take Deron, but we don't need Boozer.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

edwardcyh said:


> ummmm.... did you see Baron Davis abuse Devin last playoff?
> 
> How about Deron dropping 41 points on him earlier this season?
> 
> ...


Kidd gets away with things only a vet like him can get away with. Call it playing D on your Rep. Bruce Bowen Style. You see him reach and poke at the ball the same way younger players do but not get called for it. His size does help him quiet a bit when it comes to guarding stronger PGs like Deron and Baron... not so much for faster smaller PGs like Paul or Parker.


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## edwardcyh (Dec 13, 2005)

stevemc said:


> Kidd gets away with things only a vet like him can get away with. Call it playing D on your Rep. Bruce Bowen Style. You see him reach and poke at the ball the same way younger players do but not get called for it. *His size does help him quiet a bit when it comes to guarding stronger PGs like Deron and Baron... not so much for faster smaller PGs like Paul or Parker.*


Exactly! That's why Devin Harris' size, or lack of, gets him in trouble with bigger guards. The exact same reason I hate people talking about Harris being a "better defender" than Kidd.

Kidd shouldn't be guarding Paul or Parker in the first place! Terry or Lue should have been there defensively; hence, AJ's GONE.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

stevemc said:


> It's the back to back melt downs and him being a hair under 30 years old now that leads me to believe his value is less than last years.


dirk didn't have back to back meltdowns though. the team may have, but not dirk.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

He's not a primary player, everyone besides Cuban knows that and has for years, I wouldn't want to trade him though. He's still one of the best offensive talents in the league, and in the right system his presence would impact his teammates a lot more. He catches hell as the face of a relatively underachieving team, but he consistently produces.

People act like we could realistically trade him and be better the next year. We'd never get immediate equal value, so dealing him would spell the end. 

Are we really ready to win 30 games a year?


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

edwardcyh said:


> Exactly! That's why Devin Harris' size, or lack of, gets him in trouble with bigger guards. The exact same reason I hate people talking about Harris being a "better defender" than Kidd.
> 
> Kidd shouldn't be guarding Paul or Parker in the first place! Terry or Lue should have been there defensively; hence, AJ's GONE.


:yes:


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## xray (Feb 21, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> He's not a primary player, everyone besides Cuban knows that and has for years, I wouldn't want to trade him though. *He's still one of the best offensive talents in the league, and in the right system his presence would impact his teammates a lot more.* He catches hell as the face of a relatively underachieving team, but he consistently produces...


Exactly - you've got a nice donkey with 500 lbs of crap stacked on his back - I believe his production would actually go up if they took some pressure off of him.


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## edwardcyh (Dec 13, 2005)

xray said:


> Exactly - you've got a nice donkey with 500 lbs of crap stacked on his back - I believe his production would actually go up if they took some pressure off of him.


You can either take the load off the donkey, or you can trade the donkey for an elephant.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> dirk didn't have back to back meltdowns though. the team may have, but not dirk.


Dirk is the face of the team... the star.. He is the Mavs for the most part so he had the meltdown. Just like everyone blaming Bush for everything, he's the face of our crap gov and being held directly responsible. In both cases the increased responsibility comes with the job. I for one, am ready for a new face for both. 

Dirk is the leader of this mentally weak, loosing playoff record team. I'm ready to go a new direction. Away from the constantly punked Euro kid.

Here's the real question, will everyone have the same opinion if we make another 1st round exit next year?


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

So Kevin Garnett was also the main problem because Minnesota never got out of the first round ?


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## xray (Feb 21, 2005)

stevemc said:


> Here's the real question, will everyone have the same opinion if we make another 1st round exit next year?


IDK, but I'm starting to wonder if Cuban is thinking about keeping the roster intact (for the most part), and just adding a new coach...

...it's a LOT easier to hire a coach than to hit the phones, employ 4 extra accountants and tax advisors, etc. You get what I mean.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

croco said:


> So Kevin Garnett was also the main problem because Minnesota never got out of the first round ?


In a way.. but he did get out of the 1st round when he had two decent players around him. If you remember he was labeled as a guy who couldn't win in the playoffs for the longest despite the obvious lack of talent around him. You could argue Sam and Latrell were about as even as the combination of Stackhouse or Jho and Jet. Did he ever have as much talent around him as Dirk in any of his playoff runs (excluding this year)?

Replace KG for Dirk and we wouldn't be the cake team of the league and would prolly even have a shiny new ring. Would Dirk even have made it to the playoffs with the limited talent pool KG played with in Minny?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I don't think it's a question Cuban is still trying to compete. Stephen A said all he talked about to him was about winning a title, so I don't think things are going to be blown up.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> I don't think it's a question Cuban is still trying to compete. Stephen A said all he talked about to him was about winning a title, so I don't think things are going to be blown up.


Trading Dirk doesn't mean we blow anything up... Swap him for Elton Brand (or any other legit PF) and we're looking pretty solid. I guess I think it'd make more sense to have a PF who isn't as soft as most 2 guards who can score with his back to the basket. Dirk can't even do that with someone half a foot shorter than him.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

stevemc said:


> Trading Dirk doesn't mean we blow anything up... Swap him for Elton Brand (or any other legit PF) and we're looking pretty solid. I guess I think it'd make more sense to have a PF who isn't as soft as most 2 guards who can score with his back to the basket. Dirk can't even do that with someone half a foot shorter than him.


We wouldn't be any better with Brand. We'd be in the same spot, what's the point of making lateral moves?


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Yeah, let's trade him for Jermaine O'Neal. :angel:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Rasheed Wallace. At least we'd be entertained.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

^That would be lame for the PA announcer in DET...

Dirk Now Now Now Nowitzki!


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> We wouldn't be any better with Brand. We'd be in the same spot, what's the point of making lateral moves?


I can't say we'd be in the same spot since Brand is a true PF not some tweener who can't guard anyone. It'd be far from a lateral move since we haven't had someone who can score with their back to the basket since...... I can't even think of anyone here for an example.

Or we could continue to die by the jump shot in post season play, since we manage to live by it all regular season. 

Guess its just a difference in basketball philosophy... I like the ol' school approach of bangin in the middle then taking it outside if needed.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

You will have a hard time finding people who believe that Brand is better than Dirk.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Brand would also go further away from Kidd's style.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

croco said:


> You will have a hard time finding people who believe that Brand is better than Dirk.


Better all around? yea... Dirk does have him beat there. Pick Dirk for NBA Superstars thats great.

But a better true PF and a better piece to a team? I'll it argue all day. Only knock would be his injuries.

With Dirk's limitations you have to find players to make up for it. why not fill the position with a real PF and take the traditional route to a championship. To me it seems Dirk is more of a gimmick player. Kinda like the pass heavy offenses some college football programs use. Works for the most part but pretty worthless once people figure out how to defend the gimmick. 



btw, I didn't really want to sound like this much of a Dirk hater but I'll argue my opinions for the sake of board traffic and our own entertainment.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

stevemc said:


> Better all around? yea... Dirk does have him beat there. Pick Dirk for NBA Superstars thats great.
> 
> But a better true PF and a better piece to a team? I'll it argue all day. Only knock would be his injuries.
> 
> ...


You sure sound like one though. 

Also, if you know people who could post here, bring them to us, more traffic is always something to look for. 

I'm not sure if teams have figured out, he still had a PER of 24 over the season and 26 in the playoffs, that is very good. Not superstar good because I believe there are only a handful, but still good enough to be a major threat. It's not like he has had a Golden State flashback this year.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

stevemc said:


> Dirk is the face of the team... the star.. He is the Mavs for the most part so he had the meltdown. Just like everyone blaming Bush for everything, he's the face of our crap gov and being held directly responsible. In both cases the increased responsibility comes with the job. I for one, am ready for a new face for both.


you can say that all you want, but it's still wrong. the blame should not go on the best player because the players around him aren't as good or play terrible. you should only be blamed for things that you have control over. to say dirk had a meltdown when he was one of the few dallas players that actually stood up and had a good series is just stupid and wrong.

and as unpopular as this may be, the same has been happening to an extent with bush. by no means has he done a good job, but he gets blamed for many things that are out of his control(such as the economy).


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> you can say that all you want, but it's still wrong. the blame should not go on the best player because the players around him aren't as good or play terrible. you should only be blamed for things that you have control over. to say dirk had a meltdown when he was one of the few dallas players that actually stood up and had a good series is just stupid and wrong.
> 
> and as unpopular as this may be, the same has been happening to an extent with bush. by no means has he done a good job, but he gets blamed for many things that are out of his control(such as the economy).


Whats stupid and wrong is sheltering a Star from the criticism he deserves. He's the 1st place we look when the team under achieves. The Star of an NBA team is like a QB in the NFL. Both often get too much credit or too little but the blame starts there. Besides, you keep throwing stats at me like that makes a difference. Of course he's going to points thats all he can do. How many of those points were well after the Hornets already had a lead and had the 2nd team in? Of Course he'll get around 10 boards a game, he's 7 foot tall playing against a team with only 3 players close to his size (no more than two on the floor of those 3 at any given time). How many were offensive boards? What it comes down to is the W. Stats tell you only a limited part of the story that can be twisted at times to be misleading. Yes, Dirk did better this series compared to last year (could he have done much worse?). Personal Meltdown this year? No, but he was the Captain of the ship that sunk so take that for what it is. Captain who blames his crew isn't much a captain. Dirk didn't seem very vocal towards his team, didnt' see him trying to rally the troops even.. but hey he got 26 points a game.

As for Bush...Economy was and IS his fault.. don't you remember the pep talk for people keep spending money after 9/11? How about this worthless war thats costing billions? How about his brash actions towards other countries and his oil company friendly policies causing the price per barrel to hit new records? As many bills as he has Vetoed its hard not to associate his face with our countries' current situation handcuffing any change that might effect someone in that top 5%'s wallet and help individuals.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

stevemc said:


> Whats stupid and wrong is sheltering a Star from the criticism he deserves. He's the 1st place we look when the team under achieves. The Star of an NBA team is like a QB in the NFL. Both often get too much credit or too little but the blame starts there. Besides, you keep throwing stats at me like that makes a difference. Of course he's going to points thats all he can do. How many of those points were well after the Hornets already had a lead and had the 2nd team in? Of Course he'll get around 10 boards a game, he's 7 foot tall playing against a team with only 3 players close to his size (no more than two on the floor of those 3 at any given time). How many were offensive boards? What it comes down to is the W. Stats tell you only a limited part of the story that can be twisted at times to be misleading. Yes, Dirk did better this series compared to last year (could he have done much worse?). Personal Meltdown this year? No, but he was the Captain of the ship that sunk so take that for what it is. Captain who blames his crew isn't much a captain. Dirk didn't seem very vocal towards his team, didnt' see him trying to rally the troops even.. but hey he got 26 points a game.


he shouldn't be shelter from criticism but just receive the criticism he deserves rather than just ridiculous criticism thrown around for no reason. it happens all the time, but that doesn't mean that is incorrect and stupid every time.


> As for Bush...Economy was and IS his fault.. don't you remember the pep talk for people keep spending money after 9/11? How about this worthless war thats costing billions? How about his brash actions towards other countries and his oil company friendly policies causing the price per barrel to hit new records? As many bills as he has Vetoed its hard not to associate his face with our countries' current situation handcuffing any change that might effect someone in that top 5%'s wallet and help individuals.


i don't really feel like having this discussion, but you're not really correct. the president doesn't have as much control over the economy as people pretend he does(and as he says he does when trying to get elected).


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> he shouldn't be shelter from criticism but just receive the criticism he deserves rather than just ridiculous criticism thrown around for no reason. it happens all the time, but that doesn't mean that is incorrect and stupid every time.


Ridiculous criticism would be if we actually weren't knocked out of the 1st round again and I was saying such things. I have the right to my opinion and after watching a guy for this long with similar post season results regardless the teammates one has to think its time for change. You can keep your glorified jump shooter.. I'll wait for a real basketball player.

I'm not getting my hopes up with the Mavs until a drastic player personnel change is made. Plain and simple. Either find someone with some toughness to even out Dirk's Euro softness or move him.



rocketeer said:


> i don't really feel like having this discussion, but you're not really correct. the president doesn't have as much control over the economy as people pretend he does(and as he says he does when trying to get elected).


I listed examples of how he did and has individually effected our economic situation but whatever.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Cut out this Euro crap please.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

croco said:


> Cut out this Euro crap please.


Why? How many Euros are there with "heart"?


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

stevemc said:


> Ridiculous criticism would be if we actually weren't knocked out of the 1st round again and I was saying such things. I have the right to my opinion and after watching a guy for this long with similar post season results regardless the teammates one has to think its time for change. You can keep your glorified jump shooter.. I'll wait for a real basketball player.
> 
> I'm not getting my hopes up with the Mavs until a drastic player personnel change is made. Plain and simple. Either find someone with some toughness to even out Dirk's Euro softness or move him.


so now dirk isn't even a real basketball player? sure thing.



> I listed examples of how he did and has individually effected our economic situation but whatever.


he can effect it, but he doesn't control it as much as people want to think. that was my point. just like dirk can have an effect on his teammate's play, but he can't make kidd or howard or stackhouse knock down a jump shot.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> Why? How many Euros are there with "heart"?


What does that even mean ? Does Dirk not have "heart" because he isn't pumping his chest or talking trash ? Ironically heart equals with being a winner, not choking and all that stuff which is quite ridiculous because if you don't win a title you always get that label. It has absolutely nothing to do with being European or not and it's one of most ridiculous things in the NBA. It doesn't always have to be black or white, good grief. 

Of course someone like Slava Medvedenko does have heart because he has won a title. :krazy:


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## VeN (May 10, 2005)

croco said:


> Yeah, let's trade him for Jermaine O'Neal. :angel:


not too long ago, you ppl were serious about that trade.. wow



stevemc said:


> Replace KG for Dirk and we wouldn't be the cake team of the league and would prolly even have a shiny new ring. Would Dirk even have made it to the playoffs with the limited talent pool KG played with in Minny?


I doubt it. Avery just got outcoached time after time. The Celts have him and 2 other all stars and they arent even out of the first round yet. we really cant say, just speculate. and please please stop overrating Brand... dirk has been far better than him in the playoffs anyways. 

we need young athletic guys that will get to the rim and arent afraid of contact. and we need a system of offense that doesnt involve iso after iso. the mavs problem isnt at the PF position. its our guard and center positions. and has been for awhile. we cant stop wings and bigs eat us alive. 



stevemc said:


> Whats stupid and wrong is sheltering a Star from the criticism he deserves. He's the 1st place we look when the team under achieves.


believe me, he got reamed last offseason by just about everyone, so dont think he gets off easy.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

VeN said:


> believe me, he got reamed last offseason by just about everyone, so dont think he gets off easy.


exactly. last off season dirk got everything he deserved. but if you're looking for someone to blame this off season, it has to be howard, kidd, stackhouse, dampier, whoever wanted to make the kidd trade, and then obvious avery has been blamed as well.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

croco said:


> What does that even mean ? Does Dirk not have "heart" because he isn't pumping his chest or talking trash ? Ironically heart equals with being a winner, not choking and all that stuff which is quite ridiculous because if you don't win a title you always get that label. It has absolutely nothing to do with being European or not and it's one of most ridiculous things in the NBA. It doesn't always have to be black or white, good grief.
> 
> Of course someone like Slava Medvedenko does have heart because he has won a title. :krazy:


All I'm saying is that most European NBA players are soft. I don't think that can be denied. I wish there was a list of every European player, I bet you wouldn't disagree with about 75% of them being considered soft.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> All I'm saying is that most European NBA players are soft. I don't think that can be denied. I wish there was a list of every European player, I bet you wouldn't disagree with about 75% of them being considered soft.


i disagree.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> i disagree.


As do I.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Too many people to quote here so I'll just try cover everything. If I missed something call me out on it. 

Sorry about the Euro player thing but traditionally players who come to play in the physical American leagues have to adjust to it. Its a fact. When they don't adjust they gain the label as soft. Plain and simple. In recent years the international players have show more toughness but theres still players that keep the stereotype alive.

I'ma pull a Bush and not associate with Terrorists.. or who ever I want to label as evil or just has a different opinion than mine. So, Rocketeer I'm breaking of diplomatic relations. No crossing into political topics for us since you sound like I did around Bush's re-election.. Oh its not his fault. Now, I realize he's driving this vehicle of Americans decent.

KG has more help more now than ever and is looking to have his hands full with the Hawks. Then again this is only their 1st year together so its still pretty impressive. The comparison tho was KG in place of Dirk. He doesn't score like Dirk but sure makes up for it everywhere else which I feel would make us a far better team.

I'm prolly a little hard on Dirk since I wasn't around last season to vent about our embarrassment. So this is two years of frustration speaking. Bottom line is we need to surround him with more players that fit his style or move him for pieces that fit what we have now. We've been trying to find pieces that complement Dirk for several years now and Cuban can't seem to find the right fit. So something has to give...


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

stevemc said:


> I'm prolly a little hard on Dirk since I wasn't around last season to vent about our embarrassment. So this is two years of frustration speaking. Bottom line is we need to surround him with more players that fit his style or move him for pieces that fit what we have now. We've been trying to find pieces that complement Dirk for several years now and Cuban can't seem to find the right fit. So something has to give...


i thought the mavs did a pretty good job finding complimentary pieces when they made the finals(and were robbed) and then won 67 games the following season. problem was they faced the one team they couldn't beat in the playoffs, tried to match the 8th seed's style(bad call by avery), and dirk had a meltdown going against don nelson and a bunch of athletic defenders. i realize they were having a down year this year, but they were still 35-17 before the kidd trade so it's not like they were terrible and a lot of that could probably be attributed to them realizing the regular season didn't mean all that much because of what happened the season before. had dallas just kept things together, i imagine the team would have probably started playing better as the playoffs got closer and there's a good chance they'd still be alive right now. instead the team panicked, made a bad trade that didn't help the present and gave up the future and they have to deal with that.

but to say they never really found the pieces to go around dirk? then why did they make it to the finals and then have the best record in the league back to back seasons?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

croco said:


> As do I.



How many European players would you consider tough, clutch or tenacious? I can't think of 10.

Most are very skilled players, but physicality and tenacity aren't strongpoints for very many European players.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> i thought the mavs did a pretty good job finding complimentary pieces when they made the finals(and were robbed) and then won 67 games the following season. problem was they faced the one team they couldn't beat in the playoffs, tried to match the 8th seed's style(bad call by avery), and dirk had a meltdown going against don nelson and a bunch of athletic defenders. i realize they were having a down year this year, but they were still 35-17 before the kidd trade so it's not like they were terrible and a lot of that could probably be attributed to them realizing the regular season didn't mean all that much because of what happened the season before. had dallas just kept things together, i imagine the team would have probably started playing better as the playoffs got closer and there's a good chance they'd still be alive right now. instead the team panicked, made a bad trade that didn't help the present and gave up the future and they have to deal with that.
> 
> but to say they never really found the pieces to go around dirk? then why did they make it to the finals and then have the best record in the league back to back seasons?


They were ahead of the curve in talent and style of play for a time but it seems the league has caught up. 

Anyway, those who've voted to keep Dirk what offseason moves would you like to see?


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> How many European players would you consider tough, clutch or tenacious? I can't think of 10.
> 
> Most are very skilled players, but physicality and tenacity aren't strongpoints for very many European players.


Tell me who you consider tough, clutch and tenacious (all at the same time) in general.


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## xray (Feb 21, 2005)

croco said:


> Tell me who you consider tough, clutch and tenacious (all at the same time) in general.


The only foreign player I can think of would be Manu, but he's not a Euro. 

Maybe that's a trivia question? :clap2:


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

xray said:


> The only foreign player I can think of would be Manu, but he's not a Euro.
> 
> Maybe that's a trivia question? :clap2:


I meant in general, that includes American players as well. It's BS to say that player X from nation Y is not tough. It all comes down to winning. If you win, you do everything right and can't do no wrong, if you dont, you are a loser and not tough. How come that the Spurs win the title with so many international players ?

Not to mention that Europe is not a country. :whistling:


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## xray (Feb 21, 2005)

croco said:


> I meant in general, that includes American players as well.


Oh, well that would be MJ - and no, I don't consider Kobe to be at that level. Before Jordan had Pippen and Co., he gave his heart and soul to will his teams to victory.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

That's a pretty short list, isn't it ?


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## edwardcyh (Dec 13, 2005)

I have no problems with Euro-ballers.

I just think Germans one are soft as hell.... :biggrin:


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

If you weren't old and senile I would give you an infraction.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I didn't mean all of those things at once, I meant how many Euros are playing that have at least one of those qualities.

I think the upbringing of European players, with the boarding schools and such, don't foster as aggressive an attitude as American ball does. Most NBA players come from climates where basketball competition, and the people playing, is a lot more fierce. 

European players do play for club teams, but their style of play isn't overtly physical and they spend most of their basketball time learning individual skills. There aren't (m)any blacktop, pickup games for them, the competitve spirit isn't in their nature as much as it is for a US player.

That's why when you look at the draft profiles of the vast majority of European prospects, you'll see "skilled, but soft". Of course that's a paraphrase, but still. 

I don't see how it could be argued otherwise. I can't think of 10 European NBA players looked at as more than soft pushovers.


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## xray (Feb 21, 2005)

croco said:


> If you weren't old and senile I would give you an infraction.


:crazy::rofl2:


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## xray (Feb 21, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> I didn't mean all of those things at once, I meant how many Euros are playing that have at least one of those qualities.
> 
> I think the upbringing of European players, with the boarding schools and such, don't foster as aggressive an attitude as American ball does. Most NBA players come from climates where basketball competition, and the people playing, is a lot more fierce.
> 
> ...


It is a cultural issue, and we fans simply look at their attitudes on the court. Yao Ming is a great example of a player from probably the most strict culture on earth - one who disdains attitudes of boasting and disrespect toward others - and had to take on a mindset that would allow him to "dominate" (or at least compete) like we would expect a 7'6" center to do.

If he hadn't progressed in the American way of basketball, few would have understood that he was not scared or timid, but understood the importance of maintaining character traits of his ancient homeland. We lose sight of that, imo.


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