# Fran Vazquez: El Cobarde (Coward)



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

The Magic invest a lotto pick on this guy and this is the thanks they get...

1. This franchise is a joke

2. This kid is a joke and should be blacklisted from the league

*"I've said `no,' because I was afraid to adapt to the American way of life, and of not giving the level they have asked,'' Vazquez told the Spanish newspaper Malaga hoy today. "I'm not a coward, but I prefer to stay in Spain, progress, and who knows? Maybe jump to the NBA in a few years.''*


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

He is **edit*. What a disgrace this is. He's not going to come over as a lottery pick for years. The Magic wasted a first round selection. :whatever:


*Profanity isn't allowed in any language.*


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Damn, that's cold. Do these guys have to enter themselves in the draft, or are they automatically entered? If they are automatically entered, the Magic should have done a little more research on this kid, unless of course he said he'd come over before and now he is going back on it. 

If he entered the draft and is now backing out after the Magic picked, I agree that is a cowardly move that cost the Magic a potentially good player like one of the guys still on the table.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Wow!

They could have had Sean May, Gerald Green or anyone that could actually contribute sometime. Is vasquez Spanish for Weis?

Another Mickey Mouse decision by a Mickey Mouse organization (if this is true). The countdown to Dwight Howard's trade demand has began...


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

He entered AND stayed in the draft...

He was AT the draft...

In the green room...

Shook Stern's hand on selection...

Told the Magic and their fans he'd be there...

There's no buyout issue here, but you know this is the Magic's fault for drafting the kid in the first place...

You have 2 options here...

1. You drag his *** here

2. You sue his *** and make sure you get every dime from the Real Madrid contract he's about to sign.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

I don't think they have any options as far as compensation. They are stuck. To bad, so sad, sorry.

The GMs change, the coaches change, the players change but that idiotic decisions keep going on...


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## P33r~ (Nov 22, 2004)

What an ***. Isn't he under contract to stay with his team, having entered the draft and stayed in it? Is this is even allowable?

This is stupid. I agree with arenas809, they should force him to play or sue his ***.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Damn, what a coward. I hope he changes his mind, because that's really not fair to the Magic. I mean, what can you do if a guy gives his word, you like his game, and draft him? I mean any player can do this if they suddenly just decide they don't want to play professional basketball, which doesn't make it any less cowardly, but it does make me feel for the Magic who couldn't have seen this coming.


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## JT3000 (Nov 3, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> I don't think they have any options as far as compensation. They are stuck. To bad, so sad, sorry.
> 
> The GMs change, the coaches change, the players change but that idiotic decisions keep going on...


He was drafted. He was even AT the draft. He has an obligation to the team. If he refuses to play here, he can be sued for every cent he owns (or whatever they have in Spain). There WILL BE compensation, we just cant get our draft pick back because of this A-hole.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> He was drafted. He was even AT the draft. He has an obligation to the team.


he has no obligation. if he wants to stay in spain, too bad.



> If he refuses to play here, he can be sued for every cent he owns (or whatever they have in Spain).


based on what?



> There WILL BE compensation, we just cant get our draft pick back because of this A-hole.


no there won't.

but I do agree, he is a real coward if the real reason is what he states it is... of course, maybe Real offered him more than what magic can pay...


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## piri (Feb 9, 2003)

As a spaniard I hat this guy decission. Why? because this will put the doubt in almost every guy in our basketball. 

This guy doesn't speak any english and, need to pay 1 million euros to his team if he want to play in another team, Here in Spain is the new team who pay the million, so he can play, have respect and earn mopre or less 1,5 million euros each year. These seems good reason to not to go NBA.

I don't see how anybody could ask a compensation if he HAS NOT signed yet with Orlando.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> This guy doesn't speak any english and, need to pay 1 million euros to his team if he want to play in another team, Here in Spain is the new team who pay the million, so he can play, have respect and earn mopre or less 1,5 million euros each year. These seems good reason to not to go NBA.


I thought he didn't have a contract with anyone for the 2005/6 season?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

How many PF's get the chance to play next to a talent like Howard - so so much easier then being the only big man? Dumb dumb move - he's going to sunny Orlando not some cold weather place like Cleveland and he would no doubt get playing time on the Magic.

Coward is the only word that can describe this


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

el_Diablo said:


> I thought he didn't have a contract with anyone for the 2005/6 season?


He has contract for 05-06 with Unicaja Malaga, the club he played all the time. There are rumours about him going to Real. NBA decision wasnt affected by buyout, because 1 mil euro buyout seems to be only if he leaves to other European club. NBA buyout supposedly is smaller.

Coward? Will be sued? Give me the break - NBA isnt everything. If he feels he doesnt want it theres nothing wrong staying in Spain.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Zalgirinis said:


> He has contract for 05-06 with Unicaja Malaga, the club he played all the time. There are rumours about him going to Real. NBA decision wasnt affected by buyout, because 1 mil euro buyout seems to be only if he leaves to other European club. NBA buyout supposedly is smaller.
> 
> Coward? Will be sued? Give me the break - NBA isnt everything. If he feels he doesnt want it theres nothing wrong staying in Spain.


 Give me a break Zalgirinis:

He didn't have to make himself eligible for the Draft and could have withdrawn at any time. He knew he was going to a lottery team so I'm sure he had an idea Orlando would be one of the teams. But now after a team has wasted a pick on him he says he doesn't want to come over becuase he's not willing to commit himself to basketball: cowardice


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> Give me a break Zalgirinis:
> 
> He didn't have to make himself eligible for the Draft and could have withdrawn at any time. He knew he was going to a lottery team so I'm sure he had an idea Orlando would be one of the teams. But now after a team has wasted a pick on him he says he doesn't want to come over becuase he's not willing to commit himself to basketball: cowardice


I understand that Magic fans feel screwed and have right to be mad. But why shouldnt he declare? Drafted at #11 he made his name more known, so he willl surely sign a better deal with Real or the next year after his contract with Unicaja expires. His agent can frighten European teams which want him with "give him more money or he will leave to NBA". So I dont see any point in withdrawing from the draft when you are eligible. Sure its not nice to say Im gonna come and to change your mind, but hadnt Boozer done the same?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

has he signed with orlando prior to this decision?

edit: nm. it's still too early in the morning for my brain to compute anything comprehensible.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Zalgirinis said:


> I understand that Magic fans feel screwed and have right to be mad. But why shouldnt he declare? Drafted at #11 he made his name more known, so he willl surely sign a better deal with Real or the next year after his contract with Unicaja expires. His agent can frighten European teams which want him with "give him more money or he will leave to NBA". So I dont see any point in withdrawing from the draft when you are eligible. Sure its not nice to say Im gonna come and to change your mind, but hadnt Boozer done the same?


 When you're being compared to Loozer - that NOT a good thing


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Sounds like Orlando told him **** he didn't want to hear.


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## sherwin (Mar 21, 2005)

This is why you don't waste a top pick on some obscure stupid kid in Spain. THis is the last time a euro player goes lottery. Good job Magic.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

sherwin said:


> This is why you don't waste a top pick on some obscure stupid kid in Spain. THis is the last time a euro player goes lottery. Good job Magic.


I was thinking the samething....down with the foreigners wanting to be in the NBA! :curse:


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## Bron_Melo_ROY (Apr 12, 2004)

This kid is a ***** and this is a ***** move. For someone who was supposed to contribute right for the jump, he really has disappointed already. He knew he was going at least top 20 mainly because he "was ready" to play in the NBA. Now he turns around and says that he's not ready.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

arenas809 said:


> Told the Magic and their fans he'd be there...
> 
> There's no buyout issue here, but you know this is the Magic's fault for drafting the kid in the first place...


What's up with all the little Dick Vitale JR's??????? 

Look at the facts!


Hahah no buyout??? Try 1 million Euros!! Before you get all excited realize that the Euro is worth more than the dollar.

This is just Europes way of getting back at us for stripping their rosters for so long. They offer more money the players take it. You guys can fall for the I need to improve my skills in Europe nonsense if it works for you but the truth is this about dollars or in this case the more valuable Euro the comparisions to Boozer are spot on. Fran probably wasn't going to come over next year he just need to up his price etc etc etc. He used Orlando to make himself more money.


Anyone who doesn't see that, thinks he is obscure ( Real Madrid doesn't dole out money to obscure kids) or that he isn't good enough ( as if Andrew Declerke is hard to replace) may wish to remember we are talking about the NBA.

The damage this is going to do to international pics will be tremendous. But, maybe it will cause Euro-league to stop signing these poor talented kids to contracts with ridiculous buyouts.

Nah!

Oh yes and next time you go after Splitter babbling about how he pulled out because of his buyout, remember this scenario.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> How many PF's get the chance to play next to a talent like Howard - so so much easier then being the only big man? Dumb dumb move - he's going to sunny Orlando not some cold weather place like Cleveland and he would no doubt get playing time on the Magic.
> 
> Coward is the only word that can describe this


Howard plays center?

Right. Think about it. Fran doesn't play that position either.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Dwight Howard will be a center. They should have drafted Sean May anyway.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

I don't know much about this guy, but I wasn't expecting him to do anything in the NBA next season, so it's not really that big of a deal. Really, do you guys think he would actually contribute if he played in the NBA next season? Maybe he wanted to avoid being in a Darko situation and he wanted to get some PT over in Europe. Yeah, it's kind of dirty what he did to the Magic, I guess, but I don't think it's really that big of a deal.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

KokoTheMonkey said:


> I don't know much about this guy, but I wasn't expecting him to do anything in the NBA next season, so it's not really that big of a deal. Really, do you guys think he would actually contribute if he played in the NBA next season? Maybe he wanted to avoid being in a Darko situation and he wanted to get some PT over in Europe. Yeah, it's kind of dirty what he did to the Magic, I guess, but I don't think it's really that big of a deal.


Because the majority of the NBA hasn't learned that Europe is a composite of different countries. Euroleague teams do in fact run very different systems and have very different players, depending on the country and team.

Unfotunately the Euroleague is just the Euroleague to the NBA and as such all European players will suffer because of Fran's selfishness.


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## Miamiballer2k5 (Jun 29, 2005)

hmmm

this reminds me of









The Magic were idiots for taking this piece of **** in the first place so this is just the icing on the cake.


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

Biggestfanoftheknicks said:


> Look at the facts!
> 
> Hahah no buyout??? Try 1 million Euros!!


What facts?! All those buyout sums are speculations. You hear 1 million somewhere and you take it for granted? *In Europe contracts and buyouts arent officially announced* - learn that. Theres no such place as hoopshype salaries here, so reading about all those sums in European leagues you must be very carefull. 

1 buyout is for European teams and another for NBA. European buyouts are usually bigger (as player might be team's opponent in upcoming season if bought by other club). For example Macijauskas situation. From my inside sources I know that his buyouts are 1 million euros for European team and 350k dollars for NBA. While all people here were saying that he has 1 million NBA buyout, which was false. Dont know much about Vazquez NBA buyout, but I really doubt that it could reach 1 million euro for NBA team.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

Zalgirinis said:


> What facts?!.





> Spanish center Fran Vazquez admitted he does not know where he will be playing next season despite being picked 11th overall by Orlando Magic in this week's NBA draft. The big man has two years remaining on his contract with Unicaja Malaga. The deal includes a buyout clause worth nearly $600,000 that is proving to be a sticking point. NBA teams may pay up to just $350,000 to buy out contracts Mala blah blah


I know you'd like to think that somehow he chose Europe over the states because for some reason you have this incessant need to knock the US or downplay the advantages of this country, but really, stop fooling yourself.


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## cheepseats (Nov 3, 2004)

Ya know there doesn't seam to be much respect for the NBA (or the US) in Europe anymore. When the Spanish lost to the US in Olympics they acted like cry babies making-up phony protocol and referee complaints/accusations. You wonder some of those hard these feelings played into Fran's decision. It will be a while before a Euro (let alone Spanish) player will be taken as a 1st pick again. 

They definitely play a different type ball that seems focuses on great outside shooting and mastering art of flopping. So Fran was probably not looking forward to a much tougher inside play.

Another thing that keeps an athlete like Fran in his comfort zone is the feeling he doing business with friends (people he trusts). Reading into what the Magic spokesmen are saying, you get the feeling the Magic did not realize that and spoke only with only his agents. It looks like they kept him at arms length and probably didn’t offer much transitional assistance. Not a good way to do business.

This also says mountains about Gasol who braved everything Fran Vasquez was afraid to do. I can assure you; living in FL for most of my life it wasn’t the lack of Spanish that was the deterrent.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Didn't Orlando say on draft day something about playing him at center?
Maybe he didn't want to play center?
I bet there's more than meets the eye to this story.

And if this means that lottery teams aren't going to draft foriegn players...then San Antonio is going to win the NBA championship several times over however many years Buford and Popovich are running the team. Because the Spurs will draft these guys and let them sit overseas.


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## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

Figures a [strike]Euro-Trash[/strike] player would do this. Maybe NBA teams will stop drafting these overhyped losers.

Not an acceptable term. We have posters from all over the world. Thanks - cpaw


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Orlando said that he would compliment Howard. Howard is a center. It doesn't really matter. Why wouldn't you want to play with a big who will be one of the best 3 in the game soon enough? 

I hope he never comes, because there are plenty of guys from South America, Asia and other European countries who want to play here in his place.


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## cheepseats (Nov 3, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> And if this means that lottery teams aren't going to draft foriegn players...then San Antonio is going to win the NBA championship several times over however many years Buford and Popovich are running the team. Because the Spurs will draft these guys and let them sit overseas.


Why who many foriegn players have SA picked with lottery picks?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> And if this means that lottery teams aren't going to draft foriegn players...then San Antonio is going to win the NBA championship several times over however many years Buford and Popovich are running the team. Because the Spurs will draft these guys and let them sit overseas.


No they won't. When Tim Duncan retires, the titles dry up.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Spurs have the luxury of stashing guys overseas, because they don't need immediate help. The Magic don't have that luxury, so when the guy they feel is the best player available says he'll come over, then backs out after the pick, it's a coward move any way you slice it.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> I know you'd like to think that somehow he chose Europe over the states because for some reason you have this incessant need to knock the US or downplay the advantages of this country, but really, stop fooling yourself.


what advantages?

he is a spaniard living in malaga (or in madrid if real buys him), and the only reason (other than being in THE league) that I can figure for him to want to sign with orlando is money. and even that is moot if his contract with malaga is better than what the rookie scale offers him.

BUT I do agree, it's not that 11th pick has to play for peanuts, and he is already 22, so there is not much point in this. one should want to play against the best.



> No they won't. When Tim Duncan retires, the titles dry up.


yeah. when you lose the best player in the game, it affects you, surprise surprise!


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

el_Diablo said:


> what advantages?


Money, and the standard of living, and the business opportunities, and the possible endorsements. But really it's just money and the standard of living.


el_Diablo said:


> he is a spaniard living in malaga (or in madrid if real buys him), and the only reason (other than being in THE league) that I can figure for him to want to sign with orlando is money. and even that is moot if his contract with malaga is better than what the rookie scale offers him.



Yep money. Money goes a long way when you think about your standard of living.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

HKF said:


> Orlando said that he would compliment Howard. Howard is a center. It doesn't really matter. Why wouldn't you want to play with a big who will be one of the best 3 in the game soon enough?


Money, and ego. I won't get into what position howard plays but I don't think he is a center just yet. He is however awesome, and I think we can both agree that anytime you have the opportunity to forge your career around someone like that you do it. Even if you are solely motivated by money.



HKF said:


> I hope he never comes, because there are plenty of guys from South America, Asia and other European countries who want to play here in his place.


Unfortunately for them, this happened. I can't see European draft picks ever looked at the same way because of this act. Which is good because my knicks will hopefully be able to swoop up some nice prosepcts.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

ralaw said:


> I was thinking the samething....down with the foreigners wanting to be in the NBA! :curse:


Yeah, this is a great time for blantant xenephobic thoughts!

:cheers: 

p.s. Yeah, Vasquez is a major loser in book, but what does this have to do with any other European?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Spurs have the luxury of stashing guys overseas, because they don't need immediate help. The Magic don't have that luxury, so when the guy they feel is the best player available says he'll come over, then backs out after the pick, it's a coward move any way you slice it.


So what? The Spurs have foriegn draftess literally stacked up from years past. They can keep doing it, regardless of whatever the current NBA trend is on foriegners.

Who really cares if Orlando couldn't talk their draft pick into coming over?

I'm sure after the horror stories that Delfino and Darko have had in the NBA, not everyone likes the idea of coming over here and putting up with the bullcrap for less money.

I really don't like the tones of this thread. Just because one guy does this one thing, you all are like, **** drafting anything that's not from America. That's just silly.

Guys like Roko practically rowed their own boat to get over here. Just because this guy used the Magic, doesn't mean you have to suddenly dismiss the entire idea of drafting a guy from overseas.

Edit: Wait, Roko Ukic did this too? Hilarious. The whole NBA draft day they were talking about how badly this kid wanted to be in the NBA. That's funny. Looks like that's the real reason he slipped to the second round.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Yeah, this is a great time for blantant xenephobic thoughts!
> 
> :cheers:
> 
> p.s. Yeah, Vasquez is a major loser in book, but what does this have to do with any other European?


Exactly. This thread has just become this big cesspool of xenophobic bs. Just because one guy does one thing.

Ridiculous.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

BaronMcGrady said:


> Figures a [strike]Euro-Trash[/strike] player would do this. Maybe NBA teams will stop drafting these overhyped losers.
> 
> Not an acceptable term. We have posters from all over the world. Thanks - cpaw


Jesus, yeah guys like Ginobili, Gasol, Parker, Nocioni, and oh yeah, Dirk, they really suck.

Can we just note this notable lame incident without putting a curse on a whole continent and several leagues of basketball players?


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2004)

Biggestfanoftheknicks said:


> Money, and the standard of living, and the business opportunities, and the possible endorsements. But really it's just money and the standard of living.


Spain is not exactly a third world country so I wouldn't stay the standard of living is any worse in Spain than it is in US. And he'll make more money in Europe. In business opps and endorsements you're correct.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

KokoTheMonkey said:


> I don't know much about this guy, but I wasn't expecting him to do anything in the NBA next season, so it's not really that big of a deal. Really, do you guys think he would actually contribute if he played in the NBA next season? Maybe he wanted to avoid being in a Darko situation and he wanted to get some PT over in Europe. Yeah, it's kind of dirty what he did to the Magic, I guess, but I don't think it's really that big of a deal.


You know, before the draft, it was said the appeal of Vasquez was that he could contribute right now.


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## kawika (May 7, 2003)

Honestly, the ugly, ugly bigotry is just sort of a sub-issue. Because Raptor fans weren't any less "betrayed" somehow that Ukic didn't come over and play for them. Roy Williams was crucified for leaving Kansas for North Carolina. It's already been done to death about Boozer and there's a million other examples in the sports world. 

I for one simply cannot comprehend this "jilted lover" crap when a grown man who has professional options decides to pursue one rather than another. You can think it's not honorable or Vasquez is chicken-excrement or whatever and maybe your right. But you do not actually own these people or their lives or career, geddit? When was the last time you threw a tantrum in one your friends face when they got a divorce, which is breaking both a sacred and legal committment? This is neither of those things. I just don't grasp this supposed moral outrage stuff people love to get up on their soapbox and do. Maybe if you sat by the phone long enough nursing your broken heart your special guy will come to his senses, call and beg your forgiveness. 

But don't hold your breathe while doing it.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

kawika said:


> Honestly, the ugly, ugly bigotry is just sort of a sub-issue. Because Raptor fans weren't any less "betrayed" somehow that Ukic didn't come over and play for them. Roy Williams was crucified for leaving Kansas for North Carolina. It's already been done to death about Boozer and there's a million other examples in the sports world.
> 
> I for one simply cannot comprehend this "jilted lover" crap when a grown man who has professional options decides to pursue one rather than another. You can think it's not honorable or Vasquez is chicken-excrement or whatever and maybe your right. But you do not actually own these people or their lives or career, geddit? When was the last time you threw a tantrum in one your friends face when they got a divorce, which is both a sacred and legal committment? This is neither of those things. I just don't grasp this supposed moral outrage stuff people love to get up on their soapbox and do. Maybe if you sat by the phone long enough nursing your broken heart your special guy will come to his senses, call and beg your forgiveness.
> 
> But don't hold your breathe while doing it.


 :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## Miamiballer2k5 (Jun 29, 2005)

Although I never liked Vazquez to begin with I can see why he is staying. He will get alot of money to play in his home country. Spain is a modernized prosperous nation just like America so to act like Spain is a poor country is rediculous. I am mad at the Magic because they should have done there research I am sure Vazquez didnt just decide to do this. I bet he was thinking about it for a while. Magic passed up to many good players and now they get no one, makes me want to vomit because Orlando needed some help.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I don't have a problem with international players at all, but this rubs me the wrong way. A lotto pick that would have played big minutes (it's basically Howard with Cato and Battie, two injury prone big men), which means he would have played. Saying he couldn't adjust is silly, because damn near half this country speaks Spanish ( I know I can at least understand it). 

I never liked the buyout stuff with these players and it's why I would never want to draft a guy who had a buyout, because I'm already paying a contract, why do I need to pay for you to get out of a contract. The Magic are idiots.


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## Miamiballer2k5 (Jun 29, 2005)

HKF said:


> The Magic are idiots.


something everyone can agree on


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> I never liked the buyout stuff with these players and it's why I would never want to draft a guy who had a buyout, because I'm already paying a contract, why do I need to pay for you to get out of a contract. The Magic are idiots.


This attitude I can accept. I just can't accept the attitude that "Foreign players are the devil and they suck and they need to stay overseas and never be picked in the first round". That's just stupid. 

I say, if you're one of the best basketball players in the world, you have the right to play in the NBA and I welcome you. If you're not one of the best basketball players in the world and you are drafted, don't blame the Euro players blame management that's taking these guys.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I feel bad for the Magic, though. They're saying Vazquez was saying he was coming. Obviously they took a risk, but it sounds like he either really misled them or he changed his mind once he talked to them.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm just a little dissapointed I can't blame this on Weisbroad. Oh well, life goes on.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> I never liked the buyout stuff with these players and it's why I would never want to draft a guy who had a buyout, because I'm already paying a contract, why do I need to pay for you to get out of a contract.


european contracts count too, you know. if there were no buyout-clauses in their contracts, the european teams could refuse to let them leave at all.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

el_Diablo said:


> european contracts count too, you know. if there were no buyout-clauses in their contracts, the european teams could refuse to let them leave at all.


Which is why I wouldn't want them till they are free agents. I didn't say their contracts don't count. I said I would not draft you, if you had a buyout. If say Ginobili was without a buyout, I'd draft him. If he needed a buyout, I'd pass and pick someone else. It's not worth it to pay for them to get out and then they need to get paid while adjusting to the game.

Like Nene didn't need a buyout, so I would of had no problem selecting him.


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## PHXSPORTS4LIFE (May 8, 2003)

P33r~ said:


> What an ***. Isn't he under contract to stay with his team, having entered the draft and stayed in it? Is this is even allowable?
> 
> This is stupid. I agree with arenas809, they should force him to play or sue his ***.


he's not under contract. the team has no recourse against him. they cannot force him to play or sue him for anything. the team does, however, retain his rights indefinitely.

i think it's a move borne of cowardice, but he's allowed to make up his own mind. the magic are just idiots for not making absolutely certain that he would come to town.


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## PHXSPORTS4LIFE (May 8, 2003)

JT3000 said:


> He was drafted. He was even AT the draft. He has an obligation to the team. If he refuses to play here, he can be sued for every cent he owns (or whatever they have in Spain). There WILL BE compensation, we just cant get our draft pick back because of this A-hole.


i'll say it again, the magic cannot sue him. the mere thought of that is ridiculous. be mad all you want. slander him. but you cannot get anything from him. he has not been enriched in any way by the magic drafting him. there is no legal cause of action against him.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

My understanding of the rules, is that Euro players are *automatically* entered into the draft pool the year they turn 22. 

That means Vasquez did NOT "declare" for the draft........this was the year his name went in the pool whether he wanted to or not.

If Vasquez told the Magic "I am absolutely coming to the NBA this year." , then his actions are legal, but rather unfair. OTOH, if Orlando and Vasquez had no such conversation, the blame falls on the team.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

Scipio said:


> Spain is not exactly a third world country so I wouldn't stay the standard of living is any worse in Spain than it is in US. And he'll make more money in Europe. In business opps and endorsements you're correct.


Not it isn't but many europeans who haven't toured the vast expense of America do not understand fully how truly rich this country is. Look at our GDP GPA etc etc. Then figure 90% of the wealth is owned by 5% of the population.


What I'm trying to get across is that there are many cities which rival Catalonia in terms of luxury and region, and the items and luxuries available here simply cannot be topped. Its just flat out true, furthermore if he played he was into a max contract he wouldn't make more in Europe, especially if he got a good money manager. I don't want to get to into this but I am more than prepared to show you just how much better the standard of living in this country is _ For the wealthy _ Think about it. Out of the 10 richest people in the world, half live in America. This is no accident.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> Which is why I wouldn't want them till they are free agents. I didn't say their contracts don't count. I said I would not draft you, if you had a buyout. If say Ginobili was without a buyout, I'd draft him. If he needed a buyout, I'd pass and pick someone else. It's not worth it to pay for them to get out and then they need to get paid while adjusting to the game.
> 
> Like Nene didn't need a buyout, so I would of had no problem selecting him.


ok, I get it. but it is a bit problematic for the players and european clubs involved. obviously the euro teams have to plan their team also, so losing star players (otherwise they probably wouldn't get drafted) without compensation is a big hit for them. 

meanwhile the players also need some "insurance", so signing only one year deals (to be ready for the draft) with euro clubs is a risk too...



> What I'm trying to get across is that there are many cities which rival Catalonia in terms of luxury and region, and the items and luxuries available here simply cannot be topped. Its just flat out true, furthermore if he played he was into a max contract he wouldn't make more in Europe, especially if he got a good money manager. I don't want to get to into this but I am more than prepared to show you just how much better the standard of living in this country is For the wealthy Think about it. Out of the 10 richest people in the world, half live in America. This is no accident.


there comes a point where the extra millions don't really matter anymore. not saying than vazquez is going to make that much in europe or in usa. 

but what luxuries exactly are you talking about? I doubt the having 100 million in usa is different than having the same amount in europe. although we communists here probably tax a bit more...

and by the way, the GDP isn't everything that matters...


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

Maybe he hates Mickey Mouse.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

RebelSun said:


> Maybe he hates Mickey Mouse.


or freedom?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Biggestfanoftheknicks said:


> I know you'd like to think that somehow he chose Europe over the states because for some reason you have this incessant need to knock the US or downplay the advantages of this country, but really, stop fooling yourself.


**edited**

When I said there was no buyout issue, I meant that there wasn't an issue to the point where it was reported it would be a problem in getting him over here.

**edited**


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Oldmangrouch said:


> My understanding of the rules, is that Euro players are *automatically* entered into the draft pool the year they turn 22.
> 
> That means Vasquez did NOT "declare" for the draft........this was the year his name went in the pool whether he wanted to or not.
> 
> If Vasquez told the Magic "I am absolutely coming to the NBA this year." , then his actions are legal, but rather unfair. OTOH, if Orlando and Vasquez had no such conversation, the blame falls on the team.


*"Yes, we're a little surprised,'' said Dave Twardzik, Magic co-general manager who had seen Vazquez play six different times in Europe. "The message we've been getting all along -- before the draft, after the draft -- was that he was excited about playing here. He said it was his dream to play in the NBA. I don't know (what changed his mind).'' *

Yes their idiots, but his actions weren't one of someone who didn't plan on coming over.

Why stay in the draft if there were any concerns?

Don't compare him to Ukic, Ukic was the #41 pick in the draft, ok so the Raps invested a 2nd round pick on the kid, that's a hell of lot different than this guy being a lotto pick.

Who cares if this guy doesn't speak english, Latinos are the largest growing group of people in this country, and in Orlando, 20% of the population is Hispanic, so that excuse can stop before it even really starts.

He's just not ready to play, and is afraid of getting yammed on every night by better players.

This guy was set to make 1.44 million this year, according to the new CBA it was possible the Magic would have been able to pay his entire buyout, so that was not a serious issue.

This is just garbage, and the NBA can not let this scrub *** set this kind of precedent.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

arenas809 said:


> **edited**
> 
> When I said there was no buyout issue, I meant that there wasn't an issue to the point where it was reported it would be a problem in getting him over here.
> 
> **edited**


**edited**


Also how can you call anyone names then write something like this 



> When I said there was no buyout issue, I meant that there wasn't an issue to the point where it was reported it would be a problem in getting him over here.


**edited**


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

el_Diablo said:


> or freedom?



But what of Euro-disney and our newest lapdog Britain?


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

el_Diablo said:


> there comes a point where the extra millions don't really matter anymore. not saying than vazquez is going to make that much in europe or in usa.
> 
> but what luxuries exactly are you talking about? I doubt the having 100 million in usa is different than having the same amount in europe. although we communists here probably tax a bit more...
> 
> and by the way, the GDP isn't everything that matters...


Granted culture is a big part of it, but uh I think mean socialist not communist when you refer to europeans ( and by and large I think you mean countries like sweden) either way not just tax but luxuries investment portfolio's etc. GDP isn't everything you also have to take into account COLA, GNP, GDP per capita. The wealthiest ten percent of Americans are 15 times richer than the bottom ten percent. In Japan, for instance, the ratio is only 4.2:1. Some regard this imbalance as a product of the United States' long policy of having a more free market economy, while other countries are more ready to sacrifice net wealth in favor of equality.Americans are top in the world for most material possessions. The number of televisions, vehicles, and other such products per person are considerably higher than in any other country. For instance the United States has some 754 televisions for every thousand people, no other major state is even above 700, with Japan being closest at 680/1000

Just copied and pasted some random stats. But like you said, wealth isn't everything, and the Paella we get on the west coast isn't that great.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

arenas809 said:


> Who cares if this guy doesn't speak english, Latinos are the largest growing group of people in this country, and in Orlando, 20% of the population is Hispanic, so that excuse can stop before it even really starts.


Isn't there a pretty big diffrence between Spanish, and Hispanish? What does it matter if there's a fairly large Latino population if Vazquez is from Spain?


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## ChitwoodStyle (Oct 9, 2003)

I always thought that Vazquez was Catalonian if you asked him anyway.
:biggrin:


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

..

This is a pretty unfair situation for Orlando. Obviously they expected him to be playing next year. I don't think they would have drafted him if they thought there was any chance he wouldn't be. And I don't think Vasquez would have showed up at the actual draft if he had no intention of playing next year.

It sucks for Orlando, but there really isn't anything they can do about it now. They really needed a big man because after next year, they've basically only got Dwight Howard. Cato, Battie, and Kasun's contracts are all expiring.

If Orlando had any indication that Vasquez might not come over and still drafted him, it is their bad. Otherwise, though they haven't made the best decisions recently, you can't blame them for drafting him. Vasquez was rated pretty highly the whole time before the draft and was a nice, big, athletic prospect.

This could really effect NBA teams taking foreign players with high picks in the draft. Teams are going to start asking for assurances that a guy is going to come over, though I don't think they'll be able to do any more than take someone's word for it. I don't think anything contractual is allowed.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jnice has Orlando given up trying to talk the guy over? He sounds like the type who could change his mind if the Magic really wanted to put the press on.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Jnice has Orlando given up trying to talk the guy over? He sounds like the type who could change his mind if the Magic really wanted to put the press on.



No, they said they are not giving up and I don't think they have talked to him personally about it yet. At this point, I'm not real sure I'd want him coming over. His comments reek of a lack of confidence and if his confidence is really that low, coming over next year could destroy his career. But nothing is set in stone yet.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

JNice said:


> No, they said they are not giving up and I don't think they have talked to him personally about it yet. At this point, I'm not real sure I'd want him coming over. His comments reek of a lack of confidence and if his confidence is really that low, coming over next year could destroy his career. But nothing is set in stone yet.


It's entirely possible that he was misquoted as well, or what he said was taken out of context. If he hasn't told the Magic to their face of his decision, then I don't put too much stock in it. There's probably some sort of misunderstanding here between the two camps, and it's just a matter of sorting it all out.

I think if the Magic really do want him for next year, he'll be in a magic uniform next year.

But that's just my gut instinct.

Is anyone giving this coverage down in Orlando? Because right now we're pretty short on details and facts, but pretty high on sensationlist xenophobic rancor.


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## Miamiballer2k5 (Jun 29, 2005)

local news isnt saying much and the radio either.



Biggestfanoftheknicks said:


> You're a whiny bunch of asteriks. Which makes sense because you're a lakers fan. I shouldn't expect better. Why don't you trade all your garbage away for Kevin Garnett.
> 
> Here's a link www.whinyidiot.com/growupretrad/yousoundlikeawoman~getaclue.html.


Funny I thought he was a Clipper fan and even if he likes the Lakers what the hell does that have to do with this discusion. You have a HUGE problem of steriotyping people like with your earlier coments on other countrys and such.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Miamiballer2k5 said:


> local news isnt saying much and the radio either.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny I thought he was a Clipper fan and even if he likes the Lakers what the hell does that have to do with this discusion. You have a HUGE problem of steriotyping people like with your earlier coments on other countrys and such.


I'm pretty sure he is a Bulls fan, or at least he was. He is not a Laker fan though.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

Miamiballer2k5 said:


> local news isnt saying much and the radio either.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny I thought he was a Clipper fan and even if he likes the Lakers what the hell does that have to do with this discusion. You have a HUGE problem of steriotyping people like with your earlier coments on other countrys and such.


I pretty much copied his post and replaced the words. Are you illiterate?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Isn't there a pretty big diffrence between Spanish, and Hispanish? What does it matter if there's a fairly large Latino population if Vazquez is from Spain?


It's still Spanish though. People from Puerto Rico, Cuba and the Dominican Republic can understand people from Spain and vice versa.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> I'm pretty sure he is a Bulls fan, or at least he was. He is not a Laker fan though.


I don't think he's a bulls fan.
He's a Clippers fan last I knew.

Arenas, what's your favorite team?
End the speculation.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

if ur gna be a ***** he could have atleast been an honest ***** and not entered the draft.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

The NBA really needs to make a rule. If you get drafted by a team, you can't decide to go back to Europe, only the team can. This is ****ing pathetic, I feel for the Magic on this one... the same thing happened to the Raptors with Ukic, too.


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## kentuckyfan13 (Dec 26, 2003)

Wow i cant hardly believe this


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## european (Jun 8, 2002)

yavoon said:


> if ur gna be a ***** he could have atleast been an honest ***** and not entered the draft.


He didn't entered the draft,he was automatically elegible.


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

JNice said:


> ..
> 
> *This is a pretty unfair situation for Orlando*. Obviously they expected him to be playing next year. I don't think they would have drafted him if they thought there was any chance he wouldn't be. And I don't think Vasquez would have showed up at the actual draft if he had no intention of playing next year.


The situation is unfortunate, but it isn't unfair. Even though Fran may have promised to play there next season, it was still a risk on Orlando's part.


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## european (Jun 8, 2002)

RebelSun said:


> Even though Fran may have promised to play there next season, it was still a risk on Orlando's part.


He didn't.
He was surprised Orlando drafted him,so he obviously didn't promise anything to them.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

european said:


> He didn't entered the draft,he was automatically elegible.


he showed up in new york, shook sterns hand. it would NOT HAVE BEEN HARD to say , "hey guys, I'm a *****, I aint gna play in the nba." that would have atleast been honest.

this is cowardly and dishonest and maybe, [strike]typically european[/strike].

Not an appropriate comment.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

RebelSun said:


> The situation is unfortunate, but it isn't unfair. Even though Fran may have promised to play there next season, it was still a risk on Orlando's part.


sure its a risk when u do something w/ someone and they turn out to be dishonest and cowardly. its a risk, it doesn't make them NOT dishonest and cowardly tho.


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## european (Jun 8, 2002)

yavoon said:


> he showed up in new york, shook sterns hand. it would NOT HAVE BEEN HARD to say , "hey guys, I'm a *****, I aint gna play in the nba." that would have atleast been honest.
> 
> this is cowardly and dishonest and maybe, typically european.


[strike]You are a moron[/strike],but you are right when you say he should have decided his future before going to New York to the draft ceremony.
Anyway he didn't enter the draft,that's all I said.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

european said:


> You are a moron,but you are right when you say he should have decided his future before going to New York to the draft ceremony.
> Anyway he didn't enter the draft,that's all I said.


I'm not a moron, I'm just saying what u dont like. that he is a dishonest coward, and that if he had integrity and/or balls he would not be doing this. lacking in both though we get our result.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

**** the Orlando Magic. This organization has had so many opportunities and wasted them. It is a poorly run organization that has been very lucky (Shaq, Penny, T Mac, Howard) and they still haven't had much success.

I wish the Grizzlies were blessed with half the resources they have pissed away. Heck we have never had the #1 overall pick and they have had it 3 times and in the right drafts.


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

yavoon said:


> sure its a risk when u do something w/ someone and they turn out to be dishonest and cowardly. its a risk, it doesn't make them NOT dishonest and cowardly tho.


I don't disagree with you there. Vazquez is a punk for acting the way he did. I was just saying that the situation wasn't unfair.


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## european (Jun 8, 2002)

yavoon said:


> I'm not a moron, I'm just saying what u dont like. that he is a dishonest coward, and that if he had integrity and/or balls he would not be doing this. lacking in both though we get our result.


I don't care if you say Vazquez is a dishonest coward.
In fact I agree in the coward part.
But that "that's coward and dishonest and maybe typically european" was a moronic statement.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

european said:


> I don't care if you say Vazquez is a dishonest coward.
> In fact I agree in the coward part.
> But that "that's coward and dishonest and maybe typically european" was a moronic statement.


haha, well ok. I'm sure u would disagree. this is only a basketball forum though. and in that respect all i can really deal w/ is the dishnest cowardly basketball player.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> The NBA really needs to make a rule. If you get drafted by a team, you can't decide to go back to Europe, only the team can. This is ****ing pathetic, I feel for the Magic on this one... the same thing happened to the Raptors with Ukic, too.


When you draft someone, you don't own them. ****, if Andrew Bogut wanted to go to europe instead of the Bucks he could freely do so.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> When you draft someone, you don't own them. ****, if Andrew Bogut wanted to go to europe instead of the Bucks he could freely do so.


it snot about literally owning someone. its about being honest in ur dealings w/ ppl. which TO ME, is a big deal. I know some ppl here could give two ****s about whether or not they're honest and are probably honest more by accident than by any commitment to the virtue. but it still does matter, and this particular dishonest coward deserves all the crap he's gna get.

and I hope he gets a lot of it. I hope he has to all but not listen to a news source coming from america and is forced to hideut in spain.


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## Miamiballer2k5 (Jun 29, 2005)

this sterotyping needs to stop NOW. I can't stand narrow minded people and for some of you to be saying this is a typical European attitude [strike]your morons[/strike]. Did you ****ing go to Europe and talk to people there. How many lottery international players have done this before, none. Fran made this decision on his own so dont you people bash his country or where he is from because of his lone decision.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> The NBA really needs to make a rule. If you get drafted by a team, you can't decide to go back to Europe, only the team can. This is ****ing pathetic, I feel for the Magic on this one... the same thing happened to the Raptors with Ukic, too.


How would that be possible? Put Fran on house arrest and 24/7 survaliance so that he doesn't flee the country? Only thing the NBA could really do is not let him ever play in the NBA, but that just hurts Orlando more.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

yavoon said:


> and I hope he gets a lot of it. I hope he has to all but not listen to a news source coming from america and is forced to hideut in spain.


Dude doesn't speak a lick of english. What good is an american newssource going to be?

And the Spanish news sources aren't going to be giving him grief for staying in their country.

Haha. I wonder if it was Pau who scared Fran off of coming. Hasn't Pau made comments in the past about wanting to go back to spain, because he doesn't like it in the US?


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> How would that be possible? Put Fran on house arrest and 24/7 survaliance so that he doesn't flee the country? Only thing the NBA could really do is not let him ever play in the NBA, but that just hurts Orlando more.


there's no especially good thing u can do(atleast to recoupe the damage done by him) which is often the case when u deal w/ dishonest ppl. u are left holding the bag and there's no great way to fix it.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Dude doesn't speak a lick of english. What good is an american newssource going to be?
> 
> And the Spanish news sources aren't going to be giving him grief for staying in their country.
> 
> Haha. I wonder if it was Pau who scared Fran off of coming. Hasn't Pau made comments in the past about wanting to go back to spain, because he doesn't like it in the US?


I dont know if pau scared fran off. its ok, I'm sure seeing his name he knows it wont be eye dazzling praise.


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## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

Man I laughed when Orlando drafted Vasquez and I laugh again with this incident. I had a bad feeling about the guy already, just a hunch feeling. Totally sucks for Orlando. They don't deserve this, but it was their fault for drafting him. I just feel bad for them though for getting screwed like this. I agree with all that have said Vasquez is a coward.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Isn't there a pretty big diffrence between Spanish, and Hispanish? What does it matter if there's a fairly large Latino population if Vazquez is from Spain?


Did I REALLY just read this or are the Long Beaches impairing my vision?


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

yavoon said:


> this is cowardly and dishonest and maybe, [strike]typically european[/strike].


Good that we arent alone in this. Because Boozer did typical american thing he said hes gonna sign with Cavs and then went to Utah. [strike]Typically american[/strike].


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

RebelSun said:


> The situation is unfortunate, but it isn't unfair. Even though Fran may have promised to play there next season, it was still a risk on Orlando's part.



Unfair or unfortunate .. pretty much the same deal. It really isn't any different than what happened with Boozer and the Cavs. Obviously there was a misunderstanding. Anyway, Orlando's two headed GM is heading to Spain right away.



> Dave Twardzik and Otis Smith, co-assistant general managers of the Orlando Magic, are expected to leave for Spain on Monday morning, hoping for a face-to-face meeting and a possible change of heart with first-round draft pick Fran Vazquez.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

Zalgirinis said:


> Good that we arent alone in this. Because Boozer did typical american thing he said hes gonna sign with Cavs and then went to Utah. [strike]Typically american[/strike].


yes boozer is a huge punk for going for the money. [strike]there's no need to get ur panties in a twist just cuz fran portrays very european tendencies.[/strike]

please discontinue the cultural generalizations


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

yavoon said:


> yes boozer is a huge punk for going for the money. there's no need to get ur panties in a twist just cuz fran portrays very european tendencies.


What are you talking about? Two *individual people* each did something stupid and arguably immoral, each for their own reasons. One of them was American, one was European. What "tendencies" could that possibly show?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

yavoon said:


> yes boozer is a huge punk for going for the money. there's no need to get ur panties in a twist just cuz fran portrays very european tendencies.


 European tendencies? That's one of the biggest reaches I've ever heard.

Rip Vasquez all you want but you're doing a disservice to guys like Peja, Dirk, Sabonis, Sarunas, Drazen, etc etc. It was an individual decision


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## piri (Feb 9, 2003)

HKF said:


> I never liked the buyout stuff with these players and it's why I would never want to draft a guy who had a buyout, because I'm already paying a contract, why do I need to pay for you to get out of a contract. The Magic are idiots.


The question of the buyouts is different here in Spain. In spain a team can´t trade a player for another guy, if players doesnt want it. So the way of aquiring the rights of a player is to buy them of his actual team. A player can of for nothing when his contract expires, but, until then, a team must negotiate with his actual team to reduce the payout or simply pay it and buy the guy.

The buyout is for the team, because you can't get a player for nothing, and it is very difficult to simply exchange players that can decide to not to go to the other team by not giving his permission to his new contract.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Zalgirinis said:


> www.acb.com
> 
> *Fran Vazquez today (or yesterday) signed a 4 years contract with Akashvayu Girona.* This team finished only 16th of 18 in Spain last season, but before this season they are rocking the market getting big name players one after the other. This probably means that Vazquez is choosing Europe for much longer term than one year.


Vazquez signed a 4 year deal. He won't be able to come to the NBA till he's 26 more than likely. Now, how do some of you feel about that? As far as I'm concerned, he should be blacklisted from the NBA forever. I have no problems with him staying in Europe, but then he should have told NBA teams not to draft him (which would have made him a 2nd rounder more than likely) and he could have stayed in Europe. Don't ever come is how I feel. What a dickhead. :curse:


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

HKF said:


> Vazquez signed a 4 year deal. He won't be able to come to the NBA till he's 26 more than likely. Now, how do some of you feel about that? As far as I'm concerned, he should be blacklisted from the NBA forever. I have no problems with him staying in Europe, but then he should have told NBA teams not to draft him (which would have made him a 2nd rounder more than likely) and he could have stayed in Europe. Don't ever come is how I feel. What a dickhead. :curse:


 Agree we have another Loozer. But this maybe even worse he's isn't going to be getting paid more in Spain like Loozer with the Jazz


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## yomismo (Feb 29, 2004)

Pioneer10 said:


> Agree we have another Loozer. But this maybe even worse he's isn't going to be getting paid more in Spain like Loozer with the Jazz


It's rumored he'll be paid 2 Million euros (2'6 million dollars more or less) a year, plus Akasvayu will pay his buyout and not him. He's not a coward, he just took the money and ran.

And he didn't enter the draft, he's 22 and is automatically elegible. Blame Magic organization, not Vazquez, he has done the better for his interest (although I think he should have go to the NBA as he is able to contribute there from day 1).


Bye.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

*I saw this posted on RealGM*


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Dude doesn't speak a lick of english. What good is an american newssource going to be?
> 
> And the Spanish news sources aren't going to be giving him grief for staying in their country.
> 
> Haha. I wonder if it was Pau who scared Fran off of coming. Hasn't Pau made comments in the past about wanting to go back to spain, because he doesn't like it in the US?



I think you are mistaken. I think Guys like Sergio Rodriguez and Rudy Fernandez ( to a lesser extent) will be super pissed. IMO he just effectively took them out of lottery contention.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

Miamiballer2k5 said:


> this sterotyping needs to stop NOW. I can't stand narrow minded people and for some of you to be saying this is a typical European attitude [strike]your morons[/strike]. Did you ****ing go to Europe and talk to people there. How many lottery international players have done this before, none. Fran made this decision on his own so dont you people bash his country or where he is from because of his lone decision.


If you're not from America, let me clue you into something so it isn't a total shock. 

Because of the media here many people are stupid about Europeans. Especially the french. There is a completely irrational and imbecilic notion about a lot of European things (especially the french ) that fly in the face of history, logic, and reality.

It is just the way it is here. Thank Fox news, and really the general media. Remember though, all most of these people know of Europe is the it sits across the atlantic.


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## Miamiballer2k5 (Jun 29, 2005)

Um I have lived in Florida in my whole life, I think its ****ed up how people are being rascist in this thread. Also what are you trying to explain? It souns liek you are giving a reason for generalizing a continent of people. I don't see how any European players will be harmed from this. If an American did this would it hurt others? Hell no. Teams are not going to generalize players into being the same as Vazquez. Also I want to add that I don't think Carlos Boozer did anything wrong and this is different then that situation. He was free to leave the Cavaliers. Teams are not allowed to tell a player to opt and cause they will give them more money so the Cavs knew there was a chance he would leave. That is a totaly different situation. Why should he have stayed with the Cavs when Utah offered him a huge contract. He would be a "Loozer" to not take it.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Vazquez doesn't have to play in the NBA if he doesn't want to. Some of you people are saying he shouldn't be allowed to play in the NBA ever. How stupid can you be? What the hell did he do that was so wrong? The Magic should've done their research on the guy, they didn't, too bad. If he doesn't want to come to the NBA, he doesn't have to. I don't even know how you can even think of that as an option. He's under no obligation at all to sign with the Magic. But some of you are actually suggesting that he should be banned from the NBA for good because he doesn't want to? I've only read about half of this thread, but I've heard enough dumb *** comments for an entire year. I didn't know we had that many idiots on this site...


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> The NBA really needs to make a rule. If you get drafted by a team, you can't decide to go back to Europe, only the team can. This is ****ing pathetic, I feel for the Magic on this one... the same thing happened to the Raptors with Ukic, too.


You feel for the Magic? I don't, I feel for their fans though who have to deal with an organization that obviously doesn't do enough research on who they draft, or at least they didn't this time. And there is no possible way to make a rule like you're suggesting. You can't force a person to sign a contract in the NBA, and you can't forbid them from making a living elsewhere if they chose to and aren't under contract. Vazquez has every right to do what he did, and there's no way to change that. You just have to do your homework and draft a guy that you know will sign with your team if that's what you want.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

socco said:


> You feel for the Magic? I don't, I feel for their fans though who have to deal with an organization that obviously doesn't do enough research on who they draft, or at least they didn't this time. And there is no possible way to make a rule like you're suggesting. You can't force a person to sign a contract in the NBA, and you can't forbid them from making a living elsewhere if they chose to and aren't under contract. Vazquez has every right to do what he did, and there's no way to change that. You just have to do your homework and draft a guy that you know will sign with your team if that's what you want.



I don't know why you continue to say Orlando should have done their research. They did scout Vasquez and they obviously expected he would be playing next year and comments/quotes from Vasquez and his agent support that post-draft. In fact, even Vasquez's US agent said he was shocked at Fran's decision - are you suggesting even his own agent isn't doing his research? 

Fact is, Orlando selected a big man they thought could help their team and that they expected to have on their roster next year and Fran either punked out because he was scared or was only using getting drafted to score a bigger contract in Europe. Either way, it is unfortunate for Orlando.

I do agree however that the banning talk is a little overboard.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

JNice said:


> I don't know why you continue to say Orlando should have done their research. They did scout Vasquez and they obviously expected he would be playing next year and comments/quotes from Vasquez and his agent support that post-draft. In fact, even Vasquez's US agent said he was shocked at Fran's decision - are you suggesting even his own agent isn't doing his research?


So did Fran just wake up one day and decide he didn't want to play? There was something there before, and the Magic didn't catch it. You draft a player as-is, you don't get to whine and complain a month later when you find out it's not what you wanted. btw, I'm not continuing to say they should've done their research, I've just said it for the first time. I likely will continue to say it though, so you were half right.



JNice said:


> Fact is, Orlando selected a big man they thought could help their team and that they expected to have on their roster next year and Fran either punked out because he was scared or was only using getting drafted to score a bigger contract in Europe. Either way, it is unfortunate for Orlando.


And either way the Magic fell for it, shame on them. If he was scared, he was the same way before the Magic drafted him, they just didn't know about it. And if he was just trying to get a bigger European contract, he was the same way before the Magic drafted him, they just didn't know about it. It sucks to basically lose a lottery pick (it actually makes the Rashad McCants pick not look so horrible...), but Fran didn't draft himself, they drafted him. You gotta find out what you're getting, and they obviously didn't.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

socco said:


> So did Fran just wake up one day and decide he didn't want to play? There was something there before, and the Magic didn't catch it. You draft a player as-is, you don't get to whine and complain a month later when you find out it's not what you wanted.



Maybe he did just decide one day. Who knows. He certainly wasn't talking after the draft like he wasn't going to come over.

Sure you draft a player as-is. There is a big difference about whining about a guy who you drafted who turns out to suck as opposed to drafting a guy with the understanding of him coming to play for you, then he backs out. It seems pretty ridiculous to blame the organization for the latter when even his own agent was shocked by the decision.


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## Miamiballer2k5 (Jun 29, 2005)

The Magic didnt do there research they drafted a guy they had never met in person.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

JNice said:


> He certainly wasn't talking after the draft like he wasn't going to come over.


Would it have changed anything if he was? 



JNice said:


> Sure you draft a player as-is. There is a big difference about whining about a guy who you drafted who turns out to suck as opposed to drafting a guy with the understanding of him coming to play for you, then he backs out. It seems pretty ridiculous to blame the organization for the latter when even his own agent was shocked by the decision.


I blame the organization becuase people blame him. He didn't enter the draft, he didn't draft himself, you can't blame him. If there is anybody to blame (which I would be fine with blaming nobody, but since Fran is now the worst human being on Earth according to some it seems like that's not an option), it's the Magic for not knowing it. It's pretty unreasonable to suggest that Fran was set on going to the NBA, and the Magic in particular, no matter what and then a few weeks later he completely flip flops and won't come to the NBA for another 4 years at the earliest.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: I saw this posted on RealGM*



remy23 said:


>





Who would've thought that the Magic would be able to find a person (or in this case two people) who could screw up the draft more than John Gabriel?


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

socco said:


> Would it have changed anything if he was?
> 
> 
> I blame the organization becuase people blame him. He didn't enter the draft, he didn't draft himself, you can't blame him. If there is anybody to blame (which I would be fine with blaming nobody, but since Fran is now the worst human being on Earth according to some it seems like that's not an option), it's the Magic for not knowing it. It's pretty unreasonable to suggest that Fran was set on going to the NBA, and the Magic in particular, no matter what and then a few weeks later he completely flip flops and won't come to the NBA for another 4 years at the earliest.


then why was he in new york? yah u have no answer. if he really never wanted to goto america then u'd think MAYBE he would decline to SHOW UP AT THE DRAFT IN PERSON.

**edited**


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

I have no answer for you. If anybody else would like to have a civil discussion, it would be my pleasure.


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## Miamiballer2k5 (Jun 29, 2005)

can we carry an arguement without attacking other people! Anyway Fran showed up at the draft because he was expected to be takin high. I think this was a business move by him to get more money in Europe. He used the Magic.. then again who doesnt.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

Miamiballer2k5 said:


> can we carry an arguement without attacking other people! Anyway Fran showed up at the draft because he was expected to be takin high. I think this was a business move by him to get more money in Europe. He used the Magic.. then again who doesnt.


I dont read him as quite that smart. though that would make him more devious and even more deserving of hatred in my eyes. i actually think he earns as much of his coward title as he does his dishonest one.


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## Ryoga (Aug 31, 2002)

Just a note.

Whoever followed Vazquez's case all over the year knew he wasn't going to the NBA *at all costs*. 
It was an option, for sure, but not the only one.
So, whatever his agents might have told to the Magic, Orlando should have known that there was a strong possibility Vazquez might have a picked a different option.

On Vazquez lying and not saying he wasn't going to stay:
1) he probably didn't make a final decision till a few days ago
2) it would have been dumb on his side to tell everyone he wasn't leaving Spain, it would have been just poor self management, not honesty. He would have lost leverage in Spain (a NBA lottery pick can ask for some good money), while closing the door to any opportunity to go to the NBA. You just don't do that in business, and please don't ever do that yourself in job interviews: keep your doors as open as possible.
3) this case have nothing in common with Loozer: CL had a verbal agreement and he broke it for money, I'm sure Vazquez ahd no explicit agreements (like _draft me and I'm coming for sure at all costs_).

Finally, I don't know what to think about his decision: he wasn't all that ready to contribute imo, and he's not a star yet in Europe so he has a lot of room for growing even in Spain. But from what I'm reading it seems he has no plan to go to the NBA that soon, unlike Roko who just wanted to make an intermediate step and then cross the ocean readier.


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## yomismo (Feb 29, 2004)

Magic didn't do his job. I was in a Spanish summer league in early July and almost everyone who was there knew Fran wouldn't go to the NBA. And there was Walter Szcerbiak (Wally's father), so even the NBA scout for Europe knew about it. Everyone knew Vazquez was going to stay but the Magic organization, so blame them for not to do his job.

He went to NY cause he knew he was an interesting prospect and someone was going to draft him as he was even invited as a sure lottery pick. Being drafted doesn't mean you've got to automatically start to play in the NBA, you can do whatever you want as beiong drafted just means someone has your NBA rights, no more than that.


Bye.


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## Matiz (Jun 5, 2003)

Vasquez is supposed to be making 2 mio € per season in Girona... considering the taxes are already payed from his club and the € vs. $ exchange rate that equals to almost full MLE...


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

..



> Vazquez had told everyone before the draft -- and his coaches concurred -- that he was ready to fulfill his dream of playing in the NBA. The Magic had seen him play more than a dozen times, convinced he could be a long-term building block next to Howard.


Orlando had also talked to American teammates of his that told them how excited he was about playing in the US.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

JNice said:


> ..
> 
> 
> 
> Orlando had also talked to American teammates of his that told them how excited he was about playing in the US.


 ....so then he is a *****

but, about the whole "at 22 you're automatically entered in the draft" thing....can you just take your name out of the draft...or let it be known that you dont plan to play in the league at the present time???


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

This seems to me like a guy who's really just unsure of what he wants. I wouldn't be shocked if the Magic's GM's were able to talk him out of this and into coming over to Orlando next year. They're flying to Spain to meet with him in person tomorrow to persuade him, so we'll see what happens.


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## Matiz (Jun 5, 2003)

actually he signed with Girona for 9 mio € in 4 years... I think any international selected in the lottery would at least consider such offer...


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

Matiz said:


> actually he signed with Girona for 9 mio € in 4 years... I think any international selected in the lottery would at least consider such offer...



wow. That is one hell of a contract. What a total slap in the face. Wow. Even after they flew out there to meet him. 

This will change the way Europeans are looked at in basketball.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

yavoon said:


> I'm not a moron, I'm just saying what u dont like. that he is a dishonest coward, and that if he had integrity and/or balls he would not be doing this. lacking in both though we get our result.



No he's right, you really are. You should have education forced on you or have your citizenship revoked. Your comments on europeans are just so completely ignorant of fact and history that you honestly don't deserve reason.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Biggestfanoftheknicks said:


> wow. That is one hell of a contract. What a total slap in the face. Wow. Even after they flew out there to meet him.
> 
> This will change the way Europeans are looked at in basketball.


They haven't flown over there yet, I don't think. I think that was going to happen Monday. I am assuming if he has actually already signed that contract then they won't bother going over. Of course, they could go anyway and make a nice little vacation out of it.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

hobojoe said:


> This seems to me like a guy who's really just unsure of what he wants. I wouldn't be shocked if the Magic's GM's were able to talk him out of this and into coming over to Orlando next year. They're flying to Spain to meet with him in person tomorrow to persuade him, so we'll see what happens.


Yeah that's the impression I get as well.


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## AMR (Oct 5, 2003)

I'm amazed by your double standards.
Andres Nocioni can leave Europe for getting more money in Chicago but Fran Vazquez can't stay in Spain for money (he's signed with Akasvayu Girona, the same team that has offered Raul Lopez and Carlos Delfino more money than they get in NBA)


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

AMR said:


> I'm amazed by your double standards.
> Andres Nocioni can leave Europe for getting more money in Chicago but Fran Vazquez can't stay in Spain for money (he's signed with Akasvayu Girona, the same team that has offered Raul Lopez and Carlos Delfino more money than they get in NBA)


The only problem was that Vazquez was wanted and needed by a lotto team. Either way, I think this is why the NBA in 6 years with the new CBA, will tie the NBA draft into the NBADL. If you are 18 and you don't come play there, you won't be able to go to the league for years until. 

These buyouts are problems. They simply are. You pay a player's salary, last thing you need is to pay his team as well.


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## AMR (Oct 5, 2003)

HKF said:


> The only problem was that Vazquez was wanted and needed by a lotto team. Either way, I think this is why the NBA in 6 years with the new CBA, will tie the NBA draft into the NBADL. If you are 18 and you don't come play there, you won't be able to go to the league for years until.
> 
> These buyouts are problems. They simply are. You pay a player's salary, last thing you need is to pay his team as well.


Didn't Tau Baskonia want and need the MVP of their league?
These buyouts aren't the problem. European basketball isn't a farm league. It's professional basketball.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

AMR said:


> Didn't Tau Baskonia want and need the MVP of their league?
> These buyouts aren't the problem. European basketball isn't a farm league. It's professional basketball.


I know what they are. However, if a player isn't a FA in Europe, there is no need to draft them in my opinion. Wait till that player is free and then get him.


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## AMR (Oct 5, 2003)

HKF said:


> I know what they are. However, if a player isn't a FA in Europe, there is no need to draft them in my opinion. Wait till that player is free and then get him.



Wasn't Vazquez automatically eligible?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

AMR said:


> Wasn't Vazquez automatically eligible?


He also had an opt out. He (just) signed a new 4 year deal.


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## Helter Skelter (Jun 27, 2005)

I've seen Fran Vazquez a lot of times because of he lives in my country .

And I can say , he has not quality to play in NBA .

If you see his stats , you can see he's not in the most selected group.

He's not his team's leader . He's not good on rebounds . He has not a good shoot . 

he can't speak English , and doesn't seem very intelligent (if you listen to him you realise what I say) .

the problem is Orlando's general manager , he must be sack inmediatly ,but the problem is in NBA no one pay for his mistakes (p.e. Isiah thomas) .


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## Helter Skelter (Jun 27, 2005)

I've forget something , Fran Vazquez's New Team in Spain is going to pay him *twice* than Orlando . :banana: 

Salarys fixed in NBA , have to disappear , it's not democratic .


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## Mecca (Jul 3, 2005)

If I was a Magic fan, I would be pissed off that he ran away like because they won't see him for 2-3 years. 

I agree, he's a big ugly coward.


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## AMR (Oct 5, 2003)

Mecca said:


> If I was a Magic fan, I would be pissed off that he ran away like because they won't see him for 2-3 years.
> 
> I agree, he's a big ugly coward.


lol, everytime that an Spaniard doesn't do what Americans tell him he's a coward. He didn't signed anything with Orlando Magic and he's going to get paid twice here.


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## Punkball (Aug 1, 2005)

I'm really happy with Fran's decision of staying in Spain. Not all basketball is NBA (lucky thing). You're SO self-centered...



cheepseats said:


> Ya know there doesn't seam to be much respect for the NBA (or the US) in Europe anymore. When the Spanish lost to the US in Olympics they acted like cry babies making-up phony protocol and referee complaints/accusations. You wonder some of those hard these feelings played into Fran's decision. It will be a while before a Euro (let alone Spanish) player will be taken as a 1st pick again.
> 
> They definitely play a different type ball that seems focuses on great outside shooting and mastering art of flopping. So Fran was probably not looking forward to a much tougher inside play.


You talk too much, you know...

In the Olympics you must played with FIBA rules, not NBA ones. What are you arguing for? You played in your way, what a favor for you. And then you say those things? Very silly. Should I remember you your awful USA-Puerto Rico match?


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## MacDanny 6 (Jun 7, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> The GMs change, the coaches change, the players change but the idiotic decisions keep going on...


That is a great quote about the Magic organization. They should put that as the headline on their website.


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## cheepseats (Nov 3, 2004)

Punkball said:


> I'm really happy with Fran's decision of staying in Spain. Not all basketball is NBA (lucky thing). You're SO self-centered...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey is that you coach?


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## Bird of Spain (Aug 1, 2005)

You guys, take it easy... chill out... [strike]it would be much better if you accept that you are a bunch of losers[/strike] and even a second level Spanish players prefers to play in Spain rather than to move to US... sorry, but the sooner you accept that the NBA is a decadent empty show the sooner you will be able to play basketball again... [strike]if you have the brains to do it (which I profoundly doubt)[/strike] Anyway, if you want to have any consolation, just think that Vazquez is such a bigger loser as Orlando Magic... 

A mamarla a Parla...

Greetings


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Bird of Spain said:


> You guys, take it easy... chill out... it would be much better if you accept that you are a bunch of losers and even a second level Spanish players prefers to play in Spain rather than to move to US... sorry, but the sooner you accept that the NBA is a decadent empty show the sooner you will be able to play basketball again... if you have the brains to do it (which I profoundly doubt) Anyway, if you want to have any consolation, just think that Vazquez is such a bigger loser as Orlando Magic...
> 
> A mamarla a Parla...
> 
> Greetings


 I guess all the trolls are coming out with this thread both on the US and foreign "sides"


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## Bird of Spain (Aug 1, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> I guess all the trolls are coming out with this thread both on the US and foreign "sides"


It´s just so funny to see you all struggling just because you are realizing you r not the centre of the world... :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:


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## Bird of Spain (Aug 1, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> I guess all the trolls are coming out with this thread both on the US and foreign "sides"


By the way, that´s the advantage of speaking more than one language... can you speak French or Spanish or any other language?... even more... can you speak, write and spell proper English?... I sincerely doubt it...

Best Regards


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## cheepseats (Nov 3, 2004)

Punkball said:


> I'm really happy with Fran's decision of staying in Spain. Not all basketball is NBA (lucky thing). You're SO self-centered...


Thank you for making my point that this decision was in-part cultural. You took the time to sign-up on this board to let us know how much you dislike NBA basketball. As for your self-centered comment that could apply to any group of opposing fans.



Punkball said:


> In the Olympics you must played with FIBA rules, not NBA ones. What are you arguing for? You played in your way, what a favor for you. And then you say those things? Very silly. Should I remember you your awful USA-Puerto Rico match?


My comment about the Olympics was not directed to on-court play, but the nonsense of the coaches and some fans after the game. You’re right the US team did loose some games and deserved to; no sour-grapes on this end.

My point was not to get someone in Spain mad, it was to re-examine the way we draft international players. The CBA agreement allows us to only pay rookies by scale. Real Madrid is paying Fran almost 2xs what the Magic would pay him for the first 3 years. The Magic has lost a lottery pick in what is probably the most talented draft ever.

I think the NBA should consider something like a supplemental draft for Intern’l players. A PR machine of a European team only needs to say: “You don’t want to go there…We’ll pay you twice as much to stay here with you friends and family”…

They would not mention the fact that if they really are that good, the NBA pays the big buck on their second contracts.

btw: like your name—you wear it well.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Hold up, if the NBA isn't the center of the world in basketball, why did Vazquez sign up to get drafted into the league?


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Hold up, if the NBA isn't the center of the world in basketball, why did Vazquez sign up to get drafted into the league?


zing!


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## mauzer (Jun 7, 2005)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Hold up, if the NBA isn't the center of the world in basketball, why did Vazquez sign up to get drafted into the league?


To raise his value in his spanish team's eyes, and everybody except [strike]Orlando idiots[/strike] knew that he is staying in Spain.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

mauzer said:


> To raise his value in his spanish team's eyes, and everybody except Orlando idiots knew that he is staying in Spain.


 LOL I love how some people are trying to spin this off.

Newsflash: There is more money to be made in the NBA than in Europe, and there is a higher level of competition in the NBA than in Europe. And again, there is a reason that Europe's finest prospects and players dream of playing in the NBA.

Try getting that through your thick head instead of lambasting everyone else and calling us ignorant Americans.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Just for the record, if you insult Bud Boy and call him a "stupid American," realize his location before looking like a goon.


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## mauzer (Jun 7, 2005)

HKF said:


> Just for the record, if you insult Bud Boy and call him a "stupid American," realize his location before looking like a goon.


Are you talking about Orlando team's managers? Are you calling them smart or even "not idiots" after trades and drafts and moves they made with the team ?? Condolences to Orlando fans.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

mauzer said:


> Are you talking about Orlando team's managers? Are you calling them smart or even "not idiots" after trades and drafts and moves they made with the team ?? Condolences to Orlando fans.


 Orlando's current management team has made one move that I'm aware of, and that's drafting Vazquez. In hindsight a bad move? Of course. Did they have a good draft? Not really, in the opinions of people even before this news came out. But that doesn't change what Vazquez said. He ADMITTED to being a coward, being afraid of coming to this league.

Now the irony of it all, is that he voluntarily signed up for the NBA draft. He threw himself out there into the fire... most importantly, *he wanted to come to the NBA*. He happened to be a good enough player to land a lottery pick, and he turned his back on the team that drafted him because he wasn't man enough to live up to his word. And by entering the draft, you're giving your word that you are going to, at least at some point, make your services available to the team that drafted you. In his official statement on going back to Spain, he didn't even make it clear that he wanted to go back to Orlando... he just said, he might go back to the NBA... sometime.

I agree with you, Orlando has my condolences. But it's not their management team looking bad here, it's all Vazquez. Because at the end of the day, he's the one letting Magic fans and NBA fans in general, down. Not Orlando management.


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## cheezdoodle (May 25, 2003)

Why are you guys saying that he signed up for the draft? He never did, not this year and not any year before. He also never came over for private workouts with NBA teams. In fact, he was negotiating with Real Madrid all year long in the papers. There were rumors about him signing with them as late as a few weeks before the draft. 

Fact of the matter is that he's a 1983 prospect who was automatically eligible for the draft because of some rule that the NBA unilateraly put in their CBA. The Magic never talked with him before or after the draft. Now the guy just landed a contract which is equivalent to a 4 year, 18 million dollar deal in the NBA. 

If you would pass that up for a 2 year, 3 million dollar contract to play 10 minutes a game next year (Otis Smith's words, not mine) then I have a bridge to sell you.

It's not every single player's god given right to play in the NBA if they are 6-11 and very athletic. If they don't want to do that, that is their right.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

..

Here is a *great* write-up on the changing situation between the NBA and European players. Very good logic. I really think the situation this year with Ukic and Vasquez is really going to make GMs think twice about drafting European players, especially high in the draft.

http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1064

Basically, there is more money to be made for some of these big named kids in Europe on certain teams and additionally, a lot more money to be made by their agents ... and if Europe is anything at all like the US, we all know agents run everything.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

cheezdoodle said:


> Why are you guys saying that he signed up for the draft? He never did, not this year and not any year before. He also never came over for private workouts with NBA teams. In fact, he was negotiating with Real Madrid all year long in the papers. There were rumors about him signing with them as late as a few weeks before the draft.
> 
> Fact of the matter is that he's a 1983 prospect who was automatically eligible for the draft because of some rule that the NBA unilateraly put in their CBA. The Magic never talked with him before or after the draft. Now the guy just landed a contract which is equivalent to a 4 year, 18 million dollar deal in the NBA.
> 
> ...


 Don't act like he was forced into the draft. He could have easily pulled out.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Bird of Spain said:


> By the way, that´s the advantage of speaking more than one language... can you speak French or Spanish or any other language?... even more... can you speak, write and spell proper English?... I sincerely doubt it...
> 
> Best Regards


 I seriously doubt from the quality of you're two posts that you're in any way superior in intellect to rip another poster spelling. How stupid is is that without knowing anything about me you would think I didn't know how to spell English? It's the internet bright guy so I wouldn't go around assuming anything about anybody else. For all you know I could be a foreign language major and know 6-7 languages. But then that might be more then you're enlightened mind could handle.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

JNice said:


> ..
> 
> Here is a *great* write-up on the changing situation between the NBA and European players. Very good logic. I really think the situation this year with Ukic and Vasquez is really going to make GMs think twice about drafting European players, especially high in the draft.
> 
> ...


Good find JNice. Soon basketball may become like soccer where there are multiple leagues for players to choose from. On the whole good for basketball as player will have better oppurtunities throughout the world. In the short term this could reduce the talent available in the US but basically the NBA is like the soccer teams who tried to form a super league (Real Madrid, FC Barcelona, etc) a few years back. It will likely always draw the very best talent eventually over.

The best example of this is Sarunas. He accomplished everything in Europe but he's over in the NBA now and he's going to being making more money here then in Israel


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## cheezdoodle (May 25, 2003)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Don't act like he was forced into the draft. He could have easily pulled out.


I suggest you do some reading on the rules of the NBA draft and then get back to me. 

Thanks.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

cheezdoodle said:


> I suggest you do some reading on the rules of the NBA draft and then get back to me.
> 
> Thanks.


 He could have pulled out - he chose not too and basically admitted he was a coward. What more evidence do you need?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Pioneer10 said:


> He could have pulled out - he chose not too and basically admitted he was a coward. What more evidence do you need?


Not true, he's automatically eligible when he turns 22. However, all he had to say, was that he had no intention of ever coming to the NBA. Then more than likely a team would have taken him in the 2nd round, but since he was duplicitous in his dealings with the Magic, to get himself a better deal in Europe, they foolishly took him in the first round. If you're not committed to coming over here and competing for jobs like everyone else, simply say to the NBA, "you can draft me, but I'm not coming." Why is that so hard? Because he was trying to get over and that makes him a snake.


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## cheezdoodle (May 25, 2003)

I'm not sure if he knew what he was going to do back then. He definitely didn't show the kind of interest you would expect from someone who is trying to make the NBA (not coming over for private workouts, saying that he's proved enough, negotiating all season long with teams in Spain over a contract for next year and the year after). 

What happened in the end was the was offered a 10 million dollar contract to be a starter for one of the richest and most up and coming teams in Europe. Considering that that offer is already calculated after taxes, agent fees, car+apartment+other perks are caclulated, the offer is actually worth about 18-20 million dollars. Compare that with the 3 million dollars he had on the table from the Magic and all he did was what any other NBA player in his right mind would have done too. 

The Magic never talked to Vazquez, he never told them he was definitely coming over. While he is no saint, they screwed up badly as well. Flying out TODAY to settle this? You gotta be kidding me. I have his freaking phone number, so you are telling me that the Magic couldn't have gotten it? For them to say in the papers that he is coming over to ride the pine and maybe play 10 minutes a game if he is lucky...well that is a slap in the face when all they can offer is 1/6th of the money he was offered in Spain. 

I probably would have done the same exact thing he did.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

Jonathan's post makes sense to me. The Magic hold 100 percent of the blame for this situation.


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## Bird of Spain (Aug 1, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> I seriously doubt from the quality of you're two posts that you're in any way superior in intellect to rip another poster spelling. How stupid is is that without knowing anything about me you would think I didn't know how to spell English? It's the internet bright guy so I wouldn't go around assuming anything about anybody else. For all you know I could be a foreign language major and know 6-7 languages. But then that might be more then you're enlightened mind could handle.


Whatever... just hope you get some lessons from this humiliation... although I am not sure if you will be able to really understand what has happened - NBA and US basketball is no longer the centre of the world.

Cheers


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## Bird of Spain (Aug 1, 2005)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Hold up, if the NBA isn't the center of the world in basketball, why did Vazquez sign up to get drafted into the league?


What about to get more money from its new Spanish club? 

Best Regards


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## piri (Feb 9, 2003)

Bird of Spain said:


> You guys, take it easy... chill out... it would be much better if you accept that you are a bunch of losers and even a second level Spanish players prefers to play in Spain rather than to move to US... sorry, but the sooner you accept that the NBA is a decadent empty show the sooner you will be able to play basketball again... if you have the brains to do it (which I profoundly doubt) Anyway, if you want to have any consolation, just think that Vazquez is such a bigger loser as Orlando Magic...
> 
> A mamarla a Parla...
> 
> Greetings


Estoy de acuerdo contigo en que Estados unidos y la NBA no tienen derecho a sentirse el ombligo del mundo del baloncesto, pero eso no justifica de ninguna manera que mandes a mamarla a parla a todos los que no piensan como tú, o tú crees que sólo saben escribir en inglés, ni a dudar de la inteligencia de la gente, etc.

Y mucho menos cuando no eres más que un recien llegado a este sitio.

I agree with you. I think USA and the NBA can't feel the center of the world undervaluating basketball in other countries, but that don't justify that you send every body that don't think as you do to suck the dick.

Less when you have just arrived here.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Bird of Spain said:


> You guys, take it easy... chill out... [strike]it would be much better if you accept that you are a bunch of losers[/strike] and even a second level Spanish players prefers to play in Spain rather than to move to US... sorry, but the sooner you accept that the NBA is a decadent empty show the sooner you will be able to play basketball again... [strike]if you have the brains to do it (which I profoundly doubt)[/strike] Anyway, if you want to have any consolation, just think that Vazquez is such a bigger loser as Orlando Magic...
> 
> A mamarla a Parla...
> 
> Greetings


I'm finding it funny that some of the childish comments here were lined out, but the one at the end in spanish remained untouched.

BTW bird, not everyone here is American and/or stupid, and some people here DO speak spanish, and understand what you're saying even it's just a phrase that is really only common in Madrid.


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## Bill Laimbeer (Aug 2, 2005)

well, you guys have to realize that the us of a isn't everything. The guy has signed with Akasvayu Girona, a quiet city with a very nice beach and skying possibilities nearby. But most of all, he is getting a lot of dough. Much more than what Orlando could pay. you should try to know something about other leagues appart from the nba...

he had a previous contract with Unicaja Malaga, and Real Madrid tempted him, but Akasvayu Girona placed the money right there at the right time, so he got the player, and since he is a pro, he is doing what they do, going where they can get the most...

coward?? thats bull****, it aint nothing coward in his move, I would say he is brave enough to say no to the NBA and play in his own country for more money, does that sound so absurd? Definitely NO.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

Bill Laimbeer said:


> well, you guys have to realize that the us of a isn't everything. The guy has signed with Akasvayu Girona, a quiet city with a very nice beach and skying possibilities nearby. But most of all, he is getting a lot of dough. Much more than what Orlando could pay. you should try to know something about other leagues appart from the nba...
> 
> he had a previous contract with Unicaja Malaga, and Real Madrid tempted him, but Akasvayu Girona placed the money right there at the right time, so he got the player, and since he is a pro, he is doing what they do, going where they can get the most...
> 
> coward?? thats bull****, it aint nothing coward in his move, I would say he is brave enough to say no to the NBA and play in his own country for more money, does that sound so absurd? Definitely NO.


maybe in ur world being a lying bastitch is brave. going to new york, shaking david sterns hand then being too big of a ***** to honor that is brave. not in mine though.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

Bird of Spain said:


> By the way, that´s the advantage of speaking more than one language... can you speak French or Spanish or any other language?... even more... can you speak, write and spell proper English?... I sincerely doubt it...
> 
> Best Regards



At least we don't rob grannies and punch kittens like you vile spaniards do. God bless our SUV and one language nation. Which has no diversity to it what so ever. Go back to Spainm and spew your quasi communist rhetoric over there. I heard your King eats manure with his paella. You'd better watch out or we'll invade your country just like we did Iraq to get our precious, precious, Fran Vazquez back. I mean it. Don't tread on me!!!!


TAKE THIS HEATHEN SWINE!!











USA USA USA !!!!1111


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## yomismo (Feb 29, 2004)

Biggestfanoftheknicks said:


> At least we don't rob grannies and punch kittens like you vile spaniards do. God bless our SUV and one language nation. Which has no diversity to it what so ever. Go back to Spainm and spew your quasi communist rhetoric over there. I heard your King eats manure with his paella. You'd better watch out or we'll invade your country just like we did Iraq to get our precious, precious, Fran Vazquez back. I mean it. Don't tread on me!!!!
> 
> 
> TAKE THIS HEATHEN SWINE!!
> ...


Are you stupid? I don't care if a moron come from Spain to post some trash in this post about americans, but now you're doing the same that guy did and you're being as moron as he has been demonstred to be. Trashtalking about a country you probably do not know and his population just demonstrate you're absolutely stupid. I feel insulted for your words so the less you can do with all the polite spaniards who have been posting here is to say "sorry".

PS: Oh, you can blame the king, in fact I'd like it (republican here -although republican doesn't mean the same in the US than in Europe-), but don't touch my paella :biggrin: 


Bye.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yomismo said:


> Are you stupid? I don't care if a moron come from Spain to post some trash in this post about americans, but now you're doing the same that guy did and you're being as moron as he has been demonstred to be. Trashtalking about a country you probably do not know and his population just demonstrate you're absolutely stupid. I feel insulted for your words so the less you can do with all the polite spaniards who have been posting here is to say "sorry".
> 
> PS: Oh, you can blame the king, in fact I'd like it (republican here -although republican doesn't mean the same in the US than in Europe-), but don't touch my paella :biggrin:
> 
> ...


His post was obviously a joke. I mean, he has Hulk Hogan in the picture. Ah forget it.


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## mauzer (Jun 7, 2005)

Biggestfanoftheknicks said:


> At least we don't rob grannies and punch kittens like you vile spaniards do. God bless our SUV and one language nation. Which has no diversity to it what so ever. Go back to Spainm and spew your quasi communist rhetoric over there. I heard your King eats manure with his paella. You'd better watch out or we'll invade your country just like we did Iraq to get our precious, precious, Fran Vazquez back. I mean it. Don't tread on me!!!!
> 
> 
> TAKE THIS HEATHEN SWINE!!
> ...



))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I love you americans, finally somebody on this board said that all you americans have in your heads.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

yomismo said:


> Are you stupid? I don't care if a moron come from Spain to post some trash in this post about americans, but now you're doing the same that guy did and you're being as moron as he has been demonstred to be. Trashtalking about a country you probably do not know and his population just demonstrate you're absolutely stupid. I feel insulted for your words so the less you can do with all the polite spaniards who have been posting here is to say "sorry".
> 
> PS: Oh, you can blame the king, in fact I'd like it (republican here -although republican doesn't mean the same in the US than in Europe-), but don't touch my paella :biggrin:
> 
> ...


Slower than most faster than few.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

mauzer said:


> ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
> 
> I love you americans, finally somebody on this board said that all you americans have in your heads.



I love you America Haters. So easy to fool. Keep that superiority complex, it makes it so much easier.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Bird of Spain said:


> Whatever... just hope you get some lessons from this humiliation... although I am not sure if you will be able to really understand what has happened - NBA and US basketball is no longer the centre of the world.
> 
> Cheers


 Lol

Fran Vasquez not coming over here suddenly means the NBA isn't the center of the basketball universe. No matter how you spin it no one is ripping European teams or leagues but ripping an individual who a lot like Boozer screwed over a team. But I guess you're trying to say Vazquez is an honorable individual? He's another Loozer.

What this means is many of the average/above average European talent may stay in Europe but guess what every top player in europe, except may Bodiroga is over here now. Sarunas who was the Euroleague Finals MVP chose to come over here. What does that say? If you're the best over there like Petrovic, Sabonis, Ginobili, Parker, Dirk, Gasol, Ilgauskas, Stojakovic, Divac you're going to come over to US


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## Bill Laimbeer (Aug 2, 2005)

The thing is, to my knowledge...

1 Fran Vazquez did a bad thing going to the US of A, showing himself in that draft ceremony, wearing the Magic hat etc, that's true.

2 Other than that, he did what every other pro, no matter what field, would have done: go where he can get the most.


On the other hand I would like to cool things a bit...most of the people who are writing from Spain love the NBA and think great basketball is played there. Personally I love the US of A and several members of my family have studied and lived there in the past, so what I mean is that most of us are not american haters or anything like that...it is just that we see things from a different perspective...I dont really know what you guys know about european basketball but...it does not seem to be much...

cheers


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

Biggestfanoftheknicks said:


> At least we don't rob grannies and punch kittens like you vile spaniards do. God bless our SUV and one language nation. Which has no diversity to it what so ever. Go back to Spainm and spew your quasi communist rhetoric over there. I heard your King eats manure with his paella. You'd better watch out or we'll invade your country just like we did Iraq to get our precious, precious, Fran Vazquez back. I mean it. Don't tread on me!!!!
> 
> 
> TAKE THIS HEATHEN SWINE!!
> ...


:laugh:

the nascar driver and hulk...


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

"Orlando knows it will be difficult for me to join the team before 2009," Fran Vazquez said." 

2009? LOL. What a joke, he should be blacklisted from the league, period.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

2009? A waste of a first round pick. At least if he did a Len Bias, people would understand. He's going to hurt other International bigs being taken in the lottery because of these shenanigans no doubt about it. 

The last person to do what he did was Danny Ferry.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HKF said:


> 2009? A waste of a first round pick. At least if he did a Len Bias, people would understand. He's going to hurt other International bigs being taken in the lottery because of these shenanigans no doubt about it.


So what? Whatever dumb team passes on a surefire talent just because it's from europe or whatever is going to be just that, a dumb team.

Remember all the teams that scared themselves off of Amare because of Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, and Tyson Chandler?

Things like this will benefit teams at the bottom of the draft like Seattle and San Antonio who have no problems with drafting these guys.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HKF said:


> 2009? A waste of a first round pick. At least if he did a Len Bias, people would understand. He's going to hurt other International bigs being taken in the lottery because of these shenanigans no doubt about it.


So what? Whatever dumb team passes on a surefire talent just because it's from europe or whatever is going to be just that, a dumb team.

Remember all the teams that scared themselves off of Amare because of Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, and Tyson Chandler?

Things like this will benefit teams at the bottom of the draft like Seattle and San Antonio who have no problems with drafting these guys.

Or I guess you can throw the Cavs into that group too now that Ferry is at the helm.

Tiago Splitter, welcome to Cleveland.


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## trueorfalse (May 31, 2003)

Biggestfanoftheknicks said:


> wow. That is one hell of a contract. What a total slap in the face. Wow. Even after they flew out there to meet him.
> 
> This will change the way Europeans are looked at in basketball.


I dont believe it will, it will however change the way that NBA teams negotiate with foreign players. It will also call for a more selective approach when dealing with their agents. 
How will this affect the agent represeting Fran in North America?
(What happened to "Pacta sunt servanda" ?)

Any way you look at it, it is most definitely a grand contract.



Biggestfanoftheknicks said:


> At least we don't rob grannies and punch kittens like you vile spaniards do. God bless our SUV and one language nation. Which has no diversity to it what so ever. Go back to Spainm and spew your quasi communist rhetoric over there. I heard your King eats manure with his paella. You'd better watch out or we'll invade your country just like we did Iraq to get our precious, precious, Fran Vazquez back. I mean it. Don't tread on me!!!!
> 
> TAKE THIS HEATHEN SWINE!!
> 
> USA USA USA !!!!1111


Probably one of the most fun things I have read on basketballboards.

Like Anthony Soprano would have said: "-End of story!"

When it comes to Vazquez contract and the way he manipulated the draft/Orlando I can not frankly see the issue here.
Yes, it was somewhat sly but he went the road of simply playing different parties against each other to maximize his revenue and it paid of rather well.
Probably more rewarding and more cunning than most people on this forum would have thought and by evidence more cunning than the Orlando organisation could have imagined.

But that is just the way that sports and business go, anyone who want to be naive and say that this is the first occasion something like this has happened need a serious reality check.

How many here have cried foul when a NBA player have opted to sign a new contract with another NBA team and then made his current team match it?


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## trueorfalse (May 31, 2003)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> LOL I love how some people are trying to spin this off.
> 
> Newsflash: There is more money to be made in the NBA than in Europe, and there is a higher level of competition in the NBA than in Europe. And again, there is a reason that Europe's finest prospects and players dream of playing in the NBA.
> 
> Try getting that through your thick head instead of lambasting everyone else and calling us ignorant Americans.


There is obviously not more money to be made for Fran Vazquez in the NBA than in Europe -have you heard of the expression "alternative loss"?
The true way of reading this would probably be somehting like this:
"There is POTENTIALLY more money to be made at a POTENTIALLY later stage."
Most (and i must emphasise "most" here)want to test themselves against NBA competiton, but not everyone. I must ask you not to generalise all of "Europes finest prospects" here.


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## trueorfalse (May 31, 2003)

HKF said:


> Just for the record, if you insult Bud Boy and call him a "stupid American," realize his location before looking like a goon.


Actually, all people living in both South and North America should by definition be called Americans. That it is frequently used to describe people with a citizenship in the USA does not in any way mean that Mauzer is in the wrong.
(Sorry for the OT but I just could not help myself.)



Budweiser boy said:


> And by entering the draft, you're giving your word that you are going to, at least at some point, make your services available to the team that drafted you.


By being old enough to be drafted, do you not in any way promise to play for the team that drafted you. Besides, he has not said that he will NEVER play for Orlando nor any other team in the NBA his rights might be traded to.



JNice said:


> Here is a great write-up on the changing situation between the NBA and European players. Very good logic. I really think the situation this year with Ukic and Vasquez is really going to make GMs think twice about drafting European players, especially high in the draft.
> 
> http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1064
> 
> Basically, there is more money to be made for some of these big named kids in Europe on certain teams and additionally, a lot more money to be made by their agents ... and if Europe is anything at all like the US, we all know agents run everything.


Good post and I find the article you are linking to, to be a very interesting read.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> So what? Whatever dumb team passes on a surefire talent just because it's from europe or whatever is going to be just that, a dumb team.
> 
> Remember all the teams that scared themselves off of Amare because of Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, and Tyson Chandler?
> 
> Things like this will benefit teams at the bottom of the draft like Seattle and San Antonio who have no problems with drafting these guys.


It's not passing on a player because he's from "Europe." It's passing on a player because he might decline coming to the NBA and stay in Europe, allowing whatever lottery team which picked him, to be trouble, as they receive no return on their selection. 

As to Tiago Splitter, the guy keeps withdrawing because he's simply not that good. I doubt Ferry drafts him.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

trueorfalse said:


> Actually, all people living in both South and North America should by definition be called Americans. That it is frequently used to describe people with a citizenship in the USA does not in any way mean that Mauzer is in the wrong.
> (Sorry for the OT but I just could not help myself.)


So you call Mexicans living in Mexico, Americans too? When foreign people are talking about "Americans," they're talking about people from Canada? If so, then I was mis-informed, but in my travels, I've never known for people to do this. By definition, doesn't mean it happens.

Thanks for the lesson though.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

HKF said:


> So you call Mexicans living in Mexico, Americans too? When foreign people are talking about "Americans," their talking about people from Canada? If so, then I was mis-informed, but in my travels, I've never known for people to do this. By definition, doesn't mean it happens.
> 
> Thanks for the lesson though.


Actually HKF the guy is right, even people in South America consider themselves Americans, by definition they are, by perception of the rest of the world, Americans is limited to those from the States.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

arenas809 said:


> Actually HKF the guy is right, even people in South America consider themselves Americans, by definition they are, by perception of the rest of the world, Americans is limited to those from the States.


I realize what he is talking about. By definition, but who follows the by definition version? When people are slamming Americans, they aren't talking about people who live in Brazil. Since technically Brazilians are Americans as well. 

That's what I was saying. I guess I should visit Chile and say "hello, my American brother." He'd look at me pretty funny.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

I haven't read anything suggesting that Vasquez encouraged Orlando to draft him. Sure, he could have pulled out of the draft, but if he didn't enter himself, it's also vaiid for him to simply ignore it. A team can draft him, but if he wants to remain in Spain, that's a reasonable decision.

The Magic should have done their due dilligence. If Vasquez was conflicted, you decide what kind of no-show risk he is and calculate that into your evaluation of draft prospects. Maybe Vasquez's talent plus his risk drops him lower on the draft board. If Orlando liked his ability so much that even the risk didn't dissuade them, then they gambled and lost.

Since Vasquez didn't enter himself in the draft, I really don't see an obligation on his part. Now, if he lied in dealings with the Magic, then that would be somewhat scummy. But I haven't seen anything to suggest that he did.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

Another player on the hate list....


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## trueorfalse (May 31, 2003)

HKF said:


> So you call Mexicans living in Mexico, Americans too? When foreign people are talking about "Americans," they're talking about people from Canada? If so, then I was mis-informed, but in my travels, I've never known for people to do this. By definition, doesn't mean it happens.
> 
> Thanks for the lesson though.


I dont know where you have travelled but I really do not like to generalise a people to refer to them by their citizenship, I much rather call them by their real names.

An interesting developement is that in different countries througout the world you can actually start to hear the word that in translation would be roughly "united states of americans" or simply "unitedstatesians".
It was odd when I first heard it but I suppose that it does make more sense. You might call it linguistic evolution or what ever suit your fancy but it is in fact starting to take root.



HKF said:


> I realize what he is talking about. By definition, but who follows the by definition version? When people are slamming Americans, they aren't talking about people who live in Brazil. Since technically Brazilians are Americans as well.


I have met a lot of people who would in fact label themselves Americans but have their roots in south or central america. Another interesting developement I have noticed is that the only ones challenging this concept are people who have their citizenship in the USA.



HKF said:


> That's what I was saying. I guess I should visit Chile and say "hello, my American brother." He'd look at me pretty funny.


I would say that most people would look at you in an odd way. 
Suppose you did try it out on your actual neighbour, how would he react?

On a different note, I am absolutely amazed at the contract that Fran has signed in Girona but I would actually like to utter a word of caution. There is one thing to sign a monster contract of this dignity and a completely different thing to actually receive the money. 
Here is the homepage of CB Girona, the cheerleaders are not half bad I´d say.


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