# It's Time to trade Ben Wallace



## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

I think it is time to trade Ben Wallace. 

_*Ben Wallace would not say why he was late, telling reporters: "I don't have to explain myself to nobody."* Skiles, who was not thrilled about the late arrival, said: "Somebody said the traffic was really bad at that time. I mean it usually is in Chicago. I really haven't given it a lot of thought. that wasn't high on my list of priorities."_

What an *******. This guy is a disgrace. 
Any takers we should trade so we can get rid of his contract. I was a huge Wallace supporter all season but in this series, he just sucks. He can't get important rebounds (games 1,2) can't play defense as he used to with Detroit, can't change games, basically can't do anything other then collect money. 

I thought in this series he would just be a MONSTER because he was playing his former team that abandoned him but maybe we never should've signed this ****** in the first place. 

Ben Wallace if you are reading this, just know that you are pathetic, greedy *****, and there was and still IS a REASON WHY you were never drafted. BECAUSE YOU SUCK.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

ouch!


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Also This:

_Wallace tardy for Bulls' biggest test of the season
Skiles disappointed, says he'll fine center

By K.C. Johnson
Tribune staff reporter

May 11, 2007, 1:17 AM CDT


Ben Wallace said traffic caused him to show up 14 minutes later than required for Thursday's game, and coach Scott Skiles said team rules that have been in place all season would be used to discipline the team captain.

Players are required to enter the locker room 90 minutes before tipoff. When they don't, a fine of $500 is typical.

*"It's disappointing to me if it's an exhibition game in October," Skiles said before the game. "I don't put any more emphasis on this game than any other one, other than it's obviously the biggest game of the year. I realize that.*

"All the games are the same [rules-wise]. It's something that I can't, right now at this moment, be distracted by. Personally, I have to get myself ready for the game."

Visibly perturbed, Wallace cut short a pregame interview with ESPN sideline reporter Jim Gray when questioned on the subject. He was equally annoyed afterward.

*"I don't care what people say," Wallace said. "I ain't got to explain myself to nobody. That's the last thing I have to do."*

Wallace uncharacteristically declined to talk to reporters after practice Tuesday and Wednesday. He already was annoyed when newspaper columnists suggested he doesn't have the proper fire to beat his friends and former teammates on the Pistons in this series.

"I'm just trying to focus on playing basketball," Wallace has said throughout.

The Bulls offer downtown hotel rooms for players on game days if they want to stay nearby after the morning shootaround.

Speaking on ESPN's pregame show, former Bull Greg Anthony said the Bulls should have benched Wallace for his transgression.

*Wallace and other players were late at various times during the regular season, and the team handled those cases with fines as well*._


See, Wallace just doesn't give a ****. What a *****. Get this ****** out of Chi-town as soon as possible. Hey Ben Wallace, YOU SUCK. ****er.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Burn.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

More **** on the loser:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/telander/381338,CST-SPT-rick11.article

_Simply inexcusable
Wallace's failure to arrive on time a microcosm of everything that has gone wrong in this series 

May 11, 2007
BY RICK TELANDER Sun-Times Columnist

*Yes, the traffic was bad. We live in a little place called Chicago. We have cars here.

It happens. 

But you know what? Ben Wallace has lived here long enough to have figured this out. 

Why, from what I have seen from various trips to Detroit, his old stomping ground, they even have road delays in the Motor City. *

That Wallace, who played in Detroit for six seasons, showed up 15 minutes past team regulation for a game widely described as ''the most important of the year'' by Bulls players, coaches, followers, historians and early-arriving cicadas is kind of sad. 

Was coach Scott Skiles disappointed that his high-priced team leader was late for a critical playoff game? 

''I'd be disappointed if he was late for an exhibition game,'' Skiles said. 

Dumb, dumb, dumb. 

Still, this was supposed to be all about home court. 

And it's hard to mess up the home-court advantage in the playoffs unless you never arrive at the arena at all. 

*But this one is on Ben Wallace.* 

''I don't have to explain myself to all of you,'' he said after the game, regarding his late arrival. ''I don't care what people are thinking.'' 

Fine. Because it's hard not to think he's a mercenary jerk. 

*In the hallway afterward, Big Ben hung with Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace and other old teammates, hugging and swapping tales. *

Wow. Would it be asking too much to wait to celebrate with the enemy until after you've been swept? 

Is it asking too much to get to the big dance on time? 

Cars aren't new. 

Is shame the right word? _


This guy is just a *****. Hugging with his teammates after another loss?? Please, let's trade this ****er back to the Pistons. Stupid ***** ****er ****.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Big Ben played good in the first half, but he won't be able to continue it for whenever we play Detroit. Their team has the killer instict to beat us, but he doesn't have it for the Pistons.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Wow.

Damn, that sucks.


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

no one is gonna take him unless u throw in a REAL ASSET in hinrich, gordan, thomas, or deng.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Wow. What a DBag.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Jesus, some of that is very disappointing. I particularly don't like the part about him hanging with the Pistons after the game. 

Frankly, that infuriates me and warrants resurrection of the moniker Big Bennedict.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

It's almost like Detroit sent Big Ben over here to sabotage us.

In a way, it IS sort of sabotage. My money says that Ben Wallace was late for the game because he was hanging out with his Piston friends. I don't think he has some weird shameful deviant lifestyle or anything else that he wouldn't talk about openly or be snappy about. I think he was probably hanging with his friends.

Not cool.

Most importantly, I think he finds it difficult to really compete hard against them. I think he was playing his best, but he doesn't have enough of that mean streak, enough loyalty to the Bulls, to really be a game-changer. He was more of one in the first series, and much less of one now.

We won't get past the Pistons with Wallace playing significant minutes against them. We either have to yes, trade him, or we need to bench him for much of the series and find another player (Ty Thomas) that can step in and play with a ferocity, just for the series against the Pistons.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

one thing that has continually bugged me all season about ben wallace is that he refers to THE BULLS as "they" (as opposed to "we" or "us")... like mentally he's not quite in Chicago (except when he cashes his checks).

that bit about hanging out in the hallway with the pistons after the game is damning indeed.

boooooo.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

As for trading him: Nope. 

We're "stuck" with him (I actually still like the Wallace signing very much) until his contract becomes an expiring one. Until then, there is absolutely no way to get useful value in return. In my opinion.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> As for trading him: Nope.
> 
> We're "stuck" with him (I actually still like the Wallace signing very much) until his contract becomes an expiring one. Until then, there is absolutely no way to get useful value in return. In my opinion.


That should be two offseasons from now. Should be a good one unless John Paxson doesn't want to make a move and keep his beloved center.

By then our young guys will be in their prime. I want to Sign Noce to a 3 year deal at MLE money. He and Ben Wallace would make a nice set of expirings that offseason. Just gotta hope there is a player available in a trade who would be in his prime that we can land, or in FA that offseason.


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## WestHighHawk (Jun 28, 2003)

I love Big Ben, but being late and not caring and then hanging with your ex-homies after they beat your team...not cool at all. :nonono:


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I don't think Ben Wallace didn't care he was late... he was probably frustrated that he was late... a bit embarassed.. and didn't want to discuss it with the media over and over again.



> Mizenkay wrote: one thing that has continually bugged me all season about ben wallace is that he refers to THE BULLS as "they" (as opposed to "we" or "us")


You know, the exact same thing occured to me earlier this spring... and bothered me too. I mean, you like to give the guy the benefit of the doubt... and to me it seemed like he was playing hard against Detroit, but I did find that language troubling.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

Might we convince someone like Dallas to Take him? I would actually take Diop and Dampier over Benedict Wallace.

Mavericks might be just embarrased enough to think Wallace can put them over the top?

I don't know, I just think he's my least favorite Bull since John Starks.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

Dornado said:


> I don't think Ben Wallace didn't care he was late... he was probably frustrated that he was late... a bit embarassed.. and didn't want to discuss it with the media over and over again.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, the exact same thing occured to me earlier this spring... and bothered me too. I mean, you like to give the guy the benefit of the doubt... and to me it seemed like he was playing hard against Detroit, but I did find that language troubling.


yep, his effort seemed fine, i could care less about his choice of words. 
could just be force of habit. 
this is just a minor distraction compared to the real mental breakdown of our perimeter players.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Paxson won't trade him to save face on his big marquee signing. He wouldn't be traded until the final year of his contract. 

Duhon and BW for Gasol and Cardinal works, but lets be serious, Memphis wouldn't do that. Neither would Paxson. If something like that would happen, you can pick BPA at 9 or move up two spots to get Conley or Brewer.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> Paxson won't trade him to save face on his big marquee signing.


Paxson won't trade him because no one is going to give us value for him. 

I have seen no indication whatsoever that Paxson bases personnel decisions on his own pride. I might not agree with everything he does, but I have no doubt that, whether he's right or wrong, he bases his moves on the belief that he is helping the team.


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## BDMcGee (May 12, 2006)

It's a shame they can't get anything for him. There's no question in my opinion that he was a bad free agent signing. He's definitely not playing up to his contract. He didn't play very well against Miami and he's been horrible against Detroit. A complete non-factor. The Bulls got him for his rebounding, defense, and leadership, but he's been deficient in all of those areas. They didn't acquire Ben Wallace to get out of the first round of the playoffs. They could have done that with Tyson Chandler. They acquired him to contend, but they're far from contenders with him in the lineup. I'd take anything for Ben Wallace. Even nothing if it means he's not on the team anymore.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I really don't know what to think. We need luck or a change, but not a panic move. Something that would make sense basketball wise. But I don't see anything happening soon. 

Sending NYK, Tyrus, and Lu to Hakeem's Big Man camp would be a start.

The Ben Wallace - 4 vs 5 on offense wouldn't be bad if we had 4 solid scorers across the board.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

BDMcGee said:


> *He didn't play very well against Miami* and he's been horrible against Detroit.


Oh.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

How much value do you need to get for a player teetering on the brink of the "team cancer" category?

There are any number of teams who are or fancy themselves as contenders and might take a shot. The Suns if they decide they want to go for it another year. The Spurs, Dallas, the Lakers, maybe Golden State or Houston. Maybe the Wizards.


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## Hodges (Apr 28, 2007)

I'm in the minority here, but I think Ben played decently the last few games. Last night, he grabbed 12 boards, blocked quite a few shots and held Webber to oh of five.
I couldn't give a hoot how he acts off the court; on the court, he's been solid.

Feel free to lay into me guys.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> How much value do you need to get for a player teetering on the brink of the "team cancer" category?


I'm not sure the weight of the evidence suggests things are that bad. I'd need to see more before jumping to that conclusion. If I really believed he was a cancer, I'd advocate waiving him outright. I have no problem with those types of moves whatsoever. Indeed, I think they are critical.

I just don't get the sense that things are even close to that level with Wallace.



> There are any number of teams who are or fancy themselves as contenders and might take a shot. The Suns if they decide they want to go for it another year. The Spurs, Dallas, the Lakers, maybe Golden State or Houston. Maybe the Wizards.


Brother, if they want him and will give value, then I'm all about it. But we aren't even in the second round without Wallace, so barring your cancer theory proving true, I'm not going to back such a trade unless there is real value coming back in return.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

For consideration, the Spurs look like a team that might need to make a move to get over the top. They hold the #28 pick and several expiring deals - Brent Barry, Robert Horry (non-guaranteed and likely to retire, but tradable), Jackie Butler, Fabricio Oberto.

This is a heck of a draft. The #28 pick could get us a big that falls but has decent potential to contribute at some point- Fazekias, Jason Smith, Aaron Gray, Mark Gasol, Splitter. I'd be willing to bet at least one of those guys is both available and becomes a quality player. 

Oberto is quality depth and Barry is useful as a one year stopgap or trade filler. Butler... nothing but upside there.

Plus, if we like one of those late 1st round bigs, it frees up our higher pick for the best player available or a trade. Or thinking down the road, maybe it gets us a trade we felt we couldn't make before- we draft a guy like Julian Wright and feel comfortable trading Deng for Gasol?

That'd seem like decent value to me.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

I'd have needed to see more of Oberto to determine if thats value. It doesn't sound like value to me. 

When I say value, I mean "equal" value. Not just some value. And I don't see us getting "equal" value for Wallace. Unless he's a cancer, because then his value is nill.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

I hate Ben Wallace. He just doesn't care. I've hated him since a few weeks in. He is just horrible. The guy doesn't even take the effort to bring out a fro for us. He is absolutely pathetic. I suggested trading him to Dallas at the deadline, but no one was game for that. The guy is just horrible.

We should do a three way trade with the Kings and a contender (SAN ANTONIO).

Bulls Receive:

Brad Miller
Jackie Butler
Ron Artest
Robert Horry

Spurs Receive:

Ben Wallace

Kings Receive:

Chris Duhon
Francisco Elson
Brent Barry
2008 Bulls Draft Pick

Bulls Why? They get rid of the albatross in Ben Wallace. Get in some players that toughen them up for next year.

Spurs Why? They get Ben Wallace, an allstar level player. They clear out Elson, Horry, and Butler, which will make more playing time for bench big Oberto, and allows them to bring over Scola as a backup.

Kings Why? They get rid of cancer, and contract albatross Ron Artest. Get rid of Brad Miller's big contract. First steps to getting capspace (unload Bibby at the deadline), and start a real rebuilding.

Spurs:

PG-Tony Parker
SG-Manu Ginobli
SF-Bruce Bowen
PF-Tim Duncan
C- Ben Wallace

Bulls:

PG-Ben Gordon/Kirk Hinrich
SG-Ron Artest/Thabo Sefolsoha
SF-Luol Deng/Andres Nocioni
PF-Tyrus Thomas/Robert Horry
C- Brad Miller/Draft Pick

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...556~42~2508~234~347&teams=23~24~4~4~23~4~23~4


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> *I hate Ben Wallace.* *He just doesn't care.* I've hated him since a few weeks in. He is just horrible. The guy doesn't even take the effort to bring out a fro for us. *He is absolutely pathetic.* I suggested trading him to Dallas at the deadline, but no one was game for that. *The guy is just horrible.*
> 
> We should do a three way trade with the Kings and a contender (SAN ANTONIO).
> 
> ...


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> I hate Ben Wallace. He just doesn't care. I've hated him since a few weeks in. He is just horrible. The guy doesn't even take the effort to bring out a fro for us. He is absolutely pathetic. I suggested trading him to Dallas at the deadline, but no one was game for that. The guy is just horrible.
> 
> We should do a three way trade with the Kings and a contender (SAN ANTONIO).
> 
> ...



You're seriously advocating we trade for Ron Artest? After you yourself described him as a cancer? Why? Because we have Scott Skiles and his proven ability to get along with difficult players? *cough*... It looks like you took a lot of time writing that, and for that, I'm sorry.


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## CommonSense (Apr 30, 2007)

Well, this most recent of Benedict Ben's Locker Room Cancer Adventures does not surprise me in the least; he has had these sort of events since the Carlisle years with the Pistons. The 16 Million Dollar Man has butt heads with Rick, Larry, Flip and now Skiles. It can be argued that he actually cost the Pistons that Miami series because he refused to play zone along with the hack-a-Ben. Not to mention the 3-2-zone that focuses on the other four players besides Ben which is what the Pistons have rubbed in Ben and the Bulls face in Game 3. He was not worth that money, is a potential cancer every season and what skills he has had at his disposal have been declining the past 3 seasons.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I'm not sure the weight of the evidence suggests things are that bad. I'd need to see more before jumping to that conclusion. If I really believed he was a cancer, I'd advocate waiving him outright. I have no problem with those types of moves whatsoever. Indeed, I think they are critical.
> 
> I just don't get the sense that things are even close to that level with Wallace.


I don't have the sources at hand, but I see a few things that lead me to believe Wallace might have had a negative effect on the team. I'll grant that this is unprovable, but it's consistent with what we know.

* Last year, this team more or less pulled it together through a very rough patch with no "veteran leadership". I think that was itself a positive process for our younger players (in the end result, obviously not sucking for the first part of the year itself). Once they got their **** together, they didn't really back down from anyone even in the playoffs against the Heat. They were beaten, but competitive. I think past that point, our younger guys no longer needed much of a "veteran influence".

* This summer when Wallace was signed, his leadership was talked about, he was installed as a team captain, and over the course of the year I think the team grew deferential toward him. I've read quotes that suggest that, though I obviously don't have them at hand.. In short, everyone was told to let the guy lead them, he's the "right way", and so they let him.

* At the same time, there's a laundry list of ways he didn't lead at all or intentionally or unintentionally went in the wrong direction:
- As chronicled by Sam Smith, he had some difficulties subordinating his stats to the Bulls defensive scheme, to the point that teammates commented on how he was allowed to get away with things others werent.
- He's been quiet and not really associated heavily with his teammates.
- Obviously the whole headband fisasco.
- And obviously his clowning about with his teammates after they drubbed the Bulls.
- His frequent appearance of slacking during the regular season.

All of that stuff sends a message, and it's hard to argue it's been a good one. It seems to me that a team that had developed it's own independence and sense of how to play through hardship and careful cultivation got told to "watch this guy to see how its done" and "this guy" turned out to be a moody, pampered guy who, yes, would play with pride, but who doesn't seem personally invested in winning any more and is willing to disassociate himself and be content with his cash.

Does that make him a cancer? I dunno what the crossover point is, but to me I think if you sit aside Ben Wallace the basketball player and look at Ben Wallace the teammate, he's negative. If he's had any influence at all on his teammates I can't figure out how it's possibly a positive one.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

Ben helped get us past Miami by not getting the fouls that would've been called on less reputable players. I Grant that.


However, all season and int he Detroit series, he was all too foten a minor factor with his play. It was suggested that he was "shaqing" it. Well, the playoffs came and he didn't show up.

In my book, compared to Nene and Gooden (guys we could've gotten), Wallace was bad choice. Especially since he was part of the justification of getting rid of Chandler.

3 more years with him isn't worth it to us. He's not a difference maker, and won't be for a team like ours.

For another team, he may, and we should work the phones hard!


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

chifaninca said:


> Ben helped get us past Miami by not getting the fouls that would've been called on less reputable players. I Grant that.


Lets not water it down with talk of officiating. He was excellent and critical in the Heat series. Period.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

You knew this would happen, but even I couldn't have imagined this soon. Dude was going for his last major payday and he got it. LOL


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

the spurs wouldnt even trade horry for wallace straight up. Horry is killing in the playoffs.


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## Headfake98 (Dec 10, 2006)

Ben Wallace has done everything he was expected to, he was in a successful system in Detroit for about 5 years and the difference between here and in Detroit is that while in both instances Wallace couldn't score for ****, he had a power forward with him who (in 2005) chipped in 16 ppg 7rpg and 1.8 bpg, in about 34 mpg. 

This is compared to this year where his front court buddies consist of PJ brown (6ppg, 4.4rpg and 0.1 bpg, 19 mins) and Tyrus Thomas (5ppg, 3.7rpg, 1bpg in 13 mins). Their totals are 11ppg, 8 rpg and 1.1 bpg in 32 mins. These are not solid frontcourt players right now, especially in the unique situation where we have a very non-traditional center in Ben Wallace.

I'm not saying we need a low post, slow *** back to the basket guy - just someone who can score and rebound in the front court so Wallace can do his thing.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Screw him. I've said it all season long, get rid of his dumb ***. I didn't want any part of him, and now I really don't want any part of him. Do as I said in a thread about draft picks....trade him for a lottery pick to take a guy like Hawes or Wright, or package him with ours to move up in the draft. Get rid of him though, ASAP! (For those of you who think he doesn't have trade value, Shane Freaking Battier netted the Grizz the #8 pick, Rudy Gay, who I consider a top 4 pick in the draft. Battier has nowhere near the rep and hype that Big Ben does, so I think Wallace should net us a good player. Maybe if the Grizz get the 3rd pick, and think that pairing Wallace next to Gasol would be a good fit, we could trade him for the 3rd. Everyone knows that Durant and Oden are the cream of the crop, and there's a big drop off after him. Imagine this...we get the #1, Grizz are bumped back to #3, and we get Oden at #1, and trade Wallace, and Duhon (Big Chump and Du-Chump) for the Grizz's pick and get Wright/Conley/Horford/Brewer/Hawes, w/e. I think that Ben would be good playing next to Gasol, just as he was playing next to Rasheed. I've said all along that in order for a one-dimensional player like Ben to be any good, he has to be next to a player that compliments him well (Rasheed and Gasol). 

Picture this for a team:

Starters:
Hinrich
Gordon
Deng
Tyrus
Oden

Bench:
Thabo
Nocioni
Wright/Hawes/Conley/Brewer/Horford

I know it's not going to happen, but we can dream lol. Even if we didn't get Oden, we should try to move Wallace to a team outside the top 2 and grab a good big, or any player with star potential that is likely to reach it.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

I can only think of a few teams that would take him, and I doubt Chicago would be that interested in sending him there. 

Detroit
San Antonio
Dallas

They'd all take him, but the Bulls would get no value back. Aside from that, the Bulls are best off sticking with him.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=102516943

That's the ****ers myspace. Go tell him that he sucks and we don't want to see him for game 4. Interesting song selection. The second coming (nike commercial song) might have a deeper meaning, which might be that he is going to have problems with the team once again, like in Detroit.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

bullybullz said:


> http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=102516943
> 
> That's the ****ers myspace. Go tell him that he sucks and we don't want to see him for game 4. Interesting song selection. The second coming (nike commercial song) might have a deeper meaning, which might be that he is going to have problems with the team once again, like in Detroit.


You don't really think that is actually his "myspace" do you? :lol:


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

DaBabyBullz said:


> You don't really think that is actually his "myspace" do you? :lol:


Actually, it is. He regularly changes his avatar and his music and has his wife Chanda for God's sakes!! Also his friends include Kirk, Gordon, Deng, Sheed, Hamilton, Billups, C-Webb, his wife and many others. At one time he had this picture someone drew of him that said "Hard work pays off." Couldn't believe it but he did.

Also, the Ben Gordon myspace is real as well.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=91776491

This is KG's myspace. It is also real because in the lower right hand corner, people have asked him questions and he has answered.

And picture's of him traveling around the world.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> I don't have the sources at hand, but I see a few things that lead me to believe Wallace might have had a negative effect on the team. I'll grant that this is unprovable, but it's consistent with what we know.
> 
> * Last year, this team more or less pulled it together through a very rough patch with no "veteran leadership". I think that was itself a positive process for our younger players (in the end result, obviously not sucking for the first part of the year itself). Once they got their **** together, they didn't really back down from anyone even in the playoffs against the Heat. They were beaten, but competitive. I think past that point, our younger guys no longer needed much of a "veteran influence".


Great point. I've ALWAYS believed that the whole idea of "veteran leadership" or "experience" PaxSkiles keep talking about is highly overrated. 

We've been blown out in two games and lost a 19 point lead in the other. Someone show me where the vet's experience is helping us this series?

If experience was such a key factor then why did Miami go 0-4? They have more experienced vets than anybody.

The Warriors hadn't made the playoffs in 13 years. Their only player with deep playoff experience was Stephen Jackson... and he got himself ejected in two out of their six games. 

Dallas was coming off an NBA Finals appearance. They have a tough 7-game series win over San Antonio to hang their hats on... and all that experience a year ago meant absolutely NOTHING against Golden State.


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## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

Showtyme said:


> It's almost like Detroit sent Big Ben over here to sabotage us.


Honestly, I don't think that's that far off, after just one year, I'd also have to question Ben's character.

- First off, I find it weird how every Pistons player was so open to having him leave, advising him to come here, using the excuse that he had to take care of his family, yes, I'm sure Detroit was going to give him minimum wage.
- Weird how they picked Flip after a bad playoff performance over the face of their franchise at that time, in their little battle
- And Ben, that's the city that built him, and he just leaves like that. First he blames Flip, then he says it wasn't Flip, then it was a new opportunity, then last week I heard him say it was definately the money, what the hell.
- The whole headband thing was a complete joke, no matter how dumb the rule. He knew it, and then pulled it out twice in the same game, what a great message to send to the team and your young players. Yes, you're the highest paid player on the team, don't act like a 2 year old. Thanks for all the negative PR too by having to bring it public with your 2 year old method. The Bulls then became a laughing stock, I'm sure that will help with future free agents. What the hell does he care though, he's getting paid.
- The whole Detroit thing is making me sick. Okay, get over it after your first game against them or back in Detroit. It's sad that he admits that he would try and play extra special if it were Detroit, what if this were NJ right now, he wouldn't be trying? Got to love buddyball. He even tries to go to dinner with them the night before a game. And the Pistons blew him off. THEY GET IT.
- Didn't he also blow off a practice and/or media this week? I read that somewhere. It's like he's embarrased to be part of this team after the first two games.
- Today on PTI, they said that this response from Wallace shows there's something behind the scenes there that goes deeper than we're seeing, I think that's a good thing to assume.

I always praised Paxson for bringing us back, but I hated his offseason last year, and that includes this regular season, both moves and nonmoves. People warned us we would we stuck, and now I think we are stuck.Tap backs and rebounds are nice, but so far this hasn't been worth the price of admission.


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## Salvaged Ship (Jul 10, 2002)

A week ago after the Miami series everyone was singing his praises. Now he is a bum.

I don't see him as the problem. The 15 minute late thing is bad, but not exactly worthy of a "cancer" reference. He has brought us exactly the same thing he has been bringing for years. He is what he is. The guy was not a savior, and he needs players around him who can score.

I think Dallas is about the only candidate for a trade. Sure they would like to get rid of that Dampier contract. Wallace would fit in very well there.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Ben Wallace believes he is playing 'all right.'

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...sbits,1,3631235.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

Wallace sums up his play: All right

_By K.C. Johnson
Tribune staff reporter

May 11, 2007, 9:46 PM CDT


Ben Wallace is averaging nine points and nine rebounds per game in the Bulls' Eastern Conference semifinal against the Pistons and 9.1 points and 9.4 rebounds overall in the playoffs.

His career playoff averages entering this postseason were 8.5 points and 13.3 rebounds, which may be one reason he used just four words to answer a question asking him to assess his performance. "I've played all right," Wallace said._

If this series, he believes he is playing 'all right' that just proves he just doesn't give a ****. What's wrong with this guy. It's like I think he can't sink any lower and he just continues to sink even lower and lower. Ben Wallace is a ****ing *****.

_*Wallace was the only player to address the media after Friday's workout at the Berto Center*. He dismissed a question about if losing to his ex-teammates would be more painful.

"A loss is a loss, man," Wallace said. "*Ben Wallace and the Pistons, that's been over."[/*I]

Interesting he was the only player addressing the media. Maybe because the rest of the Bulls took the loss hard and don't want to talk about it but in the case of ****er Wallace, he doesn't give a **** so he can talk about it all he wants as long as he is getting paid. And him saying Ben Wallace and the Pistons are over, well ****er, how about the hugs you gave out after game 3???

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...1bulls,1,280829.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

This article is about the zone defense the Bulls simply cannot beat.

[I*]"We've beat it to death," he continued. "We can't work on it anymore or make any more adjustments. We don't really feel like we need to.* We feel there are openings there. We just have to split-second-decision-wise do a better job, as evidenced by the first half. We had no problem whatsoever with either one of [Detroit's defenses]. We went right through it, played our game, made our shots. The zone had no effect on us whatsoever."_

Looks like Skiles has been practicing on how to beat the zone in practice. Still though, not good enough.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Like my painting? I call it..."Ben Wallace."

And no, Memphis doesn't want to trade the draft pick (1-4), which will either be a surefire superstar or a high-end big-man prospect _who will be cheap for the next four years_, for the $60M-6 ppg-man. That's silly.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

Detroit made Ben Wallace the highest offer in Pistons history to come back and play for them. $48M is hardly anything to scoff at. 

Pax offered $60M and Detroit didn't want to match that. Good for them. 

Look at Detroit's record before they signed Webber. They weren't that good. There was a dramatic rise in their winning percentage after they picked him up. Did they know beforehand that Philly was going to bail them out in the middle of the season and dump A.I, then buy-out Webber's contract with two years remaining? Hell no. If they knew that was going to happen then they wouldn't have wasted $30M on Nazr Mohammad just days after losing Big Ben so Nazr could watch the rest of the regular season and playoffs in street clothes.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Billups says to not blame the ****er Wallace:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...nsbits,1,7416288.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

_Defending Big Ben
Billups has seen the stories in both the Detroit (gloating) and Chicago (angry) media critical of former Piston Ben Wallace, who is averaging 9.1 points, 9.4 rebounds and one home traffic jam. And Billups doesn't like it.

"They are searching right now, *trying to place blame in different places*," Billups told reporters in Auburn Hills, Mich., after practice Friday. *"It's kind of unfair* that they are doing that to Ben. *He's a warrior, man. He gives his all every night.* Those first two games he played better than anybody on their team. … He comes to play every night and gives all he has. For them to question that is really disrespectful."_

Really Chauncey, looks like you haven't watched enough of him in Chicago. I think that would be accurate as a Piston but not as a Bull. A warrior?? Laughable Giving it all he has?? Never happens. Questioning Big Ben?? Why not, he SUCKS. Chauncey, please don't interfere with things not concerning you're team, ****er.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Big Ben Wallace has showned up consistantly during the Miami series. I have questioned his loyalty to the Bulls every game vs Detroit. People questioned me earlier in the year when I mentioned this. Seems like a group hug between him and his Pistons after a demoralizing Game 3 loss opened some eyes.

Instead of being the $60 million dollar franchise leader in guiding this team in the 2nd half of the game during our breakdown, he did nothing. I know you are not the vocal one Big Ben, but it doesn't hurt to pump up your teammates. Thats the one thing our team heavily lacks. A vocal leader. Thank You Big Ben for handling Shaq. And Thank You for letting Chris 1-legged Webber handle you this series.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

bullybullz said:


> http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...1bulls,1,280829.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines
> 
> This article is about the zone defense the Bulls simply cannot beat.
> 
> "We've beat it to death," he continued. "We can't work on it anymore or make any more adjustments. We don't really feel like we need to. We feel there are openings there. We just have to split-second-decision-wise do a better job, as evidenced by the first half. We had no problem whatsoever with either one of [Detroit's defenses]. We went right through it, played our game, made our shots. The zone had no effect on us whatsoever."


Skiles is in denial. I actually agree with Rasheed's comment the other day in response to Skiles refusing to give the Piston's zone enough credit...



> “Keep continuing to not give us credit,” the Pistons power forward said. “*That’s just lying to themselves*.”


Game 1: L, 95-*69*

Game 2: L, 108-*87*

Game 3: L, 81-*74*

The zone has bothered us all season. I've been saying the past few years the best way to beat our team is to force us to finish plays at the rim off dribble penetration, because we're not very good at it. 

"Drive & kick" has been our game and it works when teams over-help on defense and leave our shooters wide open on the perimeter. But if you actually stay at home with our shooters then it puts the onus on our perimeter players to attack and actually create something off the dribble, which none of our guys are good at except for Gordon, who's undersized and turns the ball over too much.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Maybe Pax should hire a coach to teach Skiles about zones.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

bullybullz said:


> Billups says to not blame the ****er Wallace:
> 
> http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...nsbits,1,7416288.story?coll=cs-home-headlines
> 
> ...


Dude, you've lost your mind. I realize people are upset about the game 3 loss, but this does not fall squarely on the shoulders of Ben Wallace... watch the game tapes, ignore the pre and post game nonsense... the guy has not been playing poorly enough to warrant you saying he "sucks" and using whatever form of masked swearing you can come up with. Between the opening tip and the final buzzer this guy has put in some solid work during these playoffs... its not his fault the offense stagnated in the second half, and its not his fault Skiles decided to shorten up his rotation to the teams detriment. 

At least talk basketball... this "he sucks"... "he's a traitor" stuff is kid talk


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

You can't be friends with your adversary 

Not if you want to win anyway 

I will borrow a tale from another sport, Cricket , but the lesson that was learnt is the same as the one that needs to be learned here.

The 1980's . 1984/1985. Australian Cricket is in flux after the big 3 of Greg Chappell, Dennis Lillee and Rod Marsh have retired . The West Indies have toured Australia that summer and absolutely had their way with us - half through the series , our Captain , Kim Hughes breaks down on National TV and resigns the Captaincy in tears.

Allan Border , the "warrior" left handed middle order bat, who has fought countless lone hands for Australia over the preceding seasons as the team was in decline is appointed Captain.

He was appointed Captain because on an individual performance level he was jib cubed and the thinking was his lead by example approach would inspire others to find something within themselves and perform

His early style of leadership was a lot like Hinrich's . And the reliance on him by the Australian Cricket Board , as an example , draws parallels on what the Chicago Bulls management were/are expecting from Ben Wallace

The Ashes tour to England 1985. Allan Border continued to perform well on an individual level but the Australian Team had their arses handed to them by a well drilled English team . 

Relations between the two teams were at an all time high. They all got on like a house on fire and extended social pleasantries beyond the obligatory one or two beers in the dressing room after a day's play.

The Australian Team continuted to limp along for the next few seasons until the tide turned in the last test of the West Indies 1988/1989 tour when the team found something within themselves ( the selectors had been concentrating more on real bad arse hard head types , that may have had slightly lesser talent , but mentally - in their belief , had it between the ears ) and the whipped the world champion West Indies in the last test of that series

At the time , just before that team left for the 1989 Ashes tour to England , Ian Chappell - probably one of the greatest Captains Australia has had of the modern era ( he captained in the 1970's ) came out in the press , blasted Allan Border and basically called him amd his team a bunch of soft c0cks -  that this "fraternization" with the opposing team had to stop as mentally this was getting in the way of competing hard in the game

Allan Border heeded his words and strict rules were put in place about liasing with members of the English team. It was hard for a lot of these guys because they spent half the year playing with them in the English County competition. But Border, as usual,led by example and before the series started you could sense the steeliness . There were no mates and hanging out with the fellas on the other side. These guys were all business.

Australia went on to win that series comprehensively and went on under a new tough leadership from Border , that passed on to Mark Taylor and on to Steve Waugh ( who if Kirk Hinrich was a cricketer this is who he would most resemble in style - same guys for Steve Waugh if he ever played basketball ) to now , Ricky Ponting . Australian cricket has dominated the game for the last 20 years.

But the start of the domination was to harken back to the days of Ian Chappell's teams that hated the enemy , that needed to hate the enemy , that wanted to hate the enemy. Those teams were brutally ruthless.

As were MJ's Bulls when the learned their lessons from the lumps that they took from the Bad Boys.

As soon as a team learns or develops this mentality they are on their way to dominating 

This is why you absolutely have to keep Andres Nocioni and to a lesser degree Kirk Hinrich

And why a question mark has to surround Ben Wallace who may have "been there done that" and may not be able to buckle down to the task at hand and be able to commit to this team to the degree that he needs to 

Maybe I'm hardcore old school but that backslapping hanging with the boys mentality that Ben Wallace has exemplified this series has got loser written all over it . And no matter what he does on the court , right there , with his hanging with his old teammates schtick - that is as big and as an important inhibitor to this team's success as what anyone may care to realise


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Dornado said:


> Dude, you've lost your mind. I realize people are upset about the game 3 loss, but this does not fall squarely on the shoulders of Ben Wallace... watch the game tapes, ignore the pre and post game nonsense... the guy has not been playing poorly enough to warrant you saying he "sucks" and using whatever form of masked swearing you can come up with. Between the opening tip and the final buzzer this guy has put in some solid work during these playoffs... its not his fault the offense stagnated in the second half, and its not his fault Skiles decided to shorten up his rotation to the teams detriment.
> 
> At least talk basketball... this "he sucks"... "he's a traitor" stuff is kid talk


Huh?? I watched Ben Wallace play in the postseason with Detroit and with Chicago, and it's like watching two different players. Even Ben Wallace said himself that he is playing "all right" which in the playoffs is pathetic. He should say something like "I'm busting my *** off." So what Billups says about "He gives it his all every night" and Ben Wallace's "I'm all right" performace are two different viewpoints.

Do I have reason to get angry at this guy?? Of course, we paid this human 60 million dollars to contend for a championship, not lose in the second round. I've had enough of this experience BS. He is not a monster like he said he will be, just another average player.

I think the reason you think I've 'lost my mind' is because we have different opinions on what we expected from Ben during the postseason. During the Miami series he was great, but that had a lot to do with Miami, not Ben and this series against his former team and his current buddies, he sucks. Yeah he may show effort but effort isn't good enough. It's all about performance and results in the postseason.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> You can't be friends with your adversary
> 
> Not if you want to win anyway
> 
> ...


Great post. Totally agree. We must trade ben walaccce.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Cricket that game where you go and pitch a tent for 3 days, drink a lot of beers, and who cares about if there's something going on on some field somewhere?


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

DaBullz said:


> Cricket that game where you go and pitch a tent for 3 days, drink a lot of beers, and who cares about if there's something going on on some field somewhere?


The purists do m'boy

Of course 1 day and the 20/20 ( half day ) versions of the game have their place in the "do you want fries with that" premature ejectulator segment of the market


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

ok now that we figured out why ben wallace sucks, lets figure out why the rest of the team stinks. 
maybe they want to be friends with detroit too, our guards like to pass to them and noc likes to escort them into the paint. lol.


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## Headfake98 (Dec 10, 2006)

Yeah, I honestly don't understand why all the hate on Ben Wallace. What about Gordon, with his 12ppg? Thats like worse than his rookie season. What about Kirk? What about goddamn Skiles? I don't see how trading about a great defensive center in the form of ben wallace is going to help.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

bullybullz said:


> Huh?? I watched Ben Wallace play in the postseason with Detroit and with Chicago, and it's like watching two different players. Even Ben Wallace said himself that he is playing "all right" which in the playoffs is pathetic. He should say something like "I'm busting my *** off." So what Billups says about "He gives it his all every night" and Ben Wallace's "I'm all right" performace are two different viewpoints.
> 
> Do I have reason to get angry at this guy?? Of course, we paid this human 60 million dollars to contend for a championship, not lose in the second round. I've had enough of this experience BS. He is not a monster like he said he will be, just another average player.
> 
> I think the reason you think I've 'lost my mind' is because we have different opinions on what we expected from Ben during the postseason. During the Miami series he was great, but that had a lot to do with Miami, not Ben and this series against his former team and his current buddies, he sucks. Yeah he may show effort but effort isn't good enough. It's all about performance and results in the postseason.



So when Wallace plays an integral part in sweeping the defending champs it "had a lot to do with Miami"... but when the team struggles against a far superior opponent its Wallace's fault... couldn't it just be that Detroit is an all-round better basketball team? Couldn't it "have a lot to do" with Detroit being the best team in the East?


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

Headfake98 said:


> Yeah, I honestly don't understand why all the hate on Ben Wallace. What about Gordon, with his 12ppg? Thats like worse than his rookie season. What about Kirk? What about goddamn Skiles? I don't see how trading about a great defensive center in the form of ben wallace is going to help.


there's no point in fighting it.
people have to back 'their guy'. support their fan club.
sometimes that means attacking another player (on the same team no less). 
shift the blame (when in reality it's shared), and hopefully no one focuses on how crappy their guy has been doing.


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## Headfake98 (Dec 10, 2006)

I mean Gordon is my fav NBA player, but he has been sucking it up this series.

Not saying that its his fault we are losing, or any one persons. I'd put it down to coaching and mental weakness if I had to.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Brian Hanley Article


> After the Bulls' loss, Wallace told media, ''I don't have to explain myself to nobody.''
> And apparently he hasn't -- beyond the ''traffic'' excuse he gave during an ESPN interview.
> Skiles was asked Friday if Wallace, who was fined for being late, owed the team an apology.
> ''That would be up to him. Everybody else was there,'' Skiles said. ''I go round and round with my kids about this: An apology either comes from the heart or it doesn't. If you have to ask for it, it doesn't mean anything.
> ...


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Maybe I'm hardcore old school but that backslapping hanging with the boys mentality that Ben Wallace has exemplified this series has got loser written all over it . And no matter what he does on the court , right there , with his hanging with his old teammates schtick - that is as big and as an important inhibitor to this team's success as what anyone may care to realise


I think it's thee reason he seems to be isolated by the team at this particular point in time, but it's not that much of a deal just yet. We just haven't shown the same determination or desire to beat the Pistons like we wanted to and did with the Heat, it really looks like that was the teams goal coming into the playoffs. 

Overall you're on the money though, the Pistons knew enough that they stood him up!


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> The purists do m'boy
> 
> Of course 1 day and the 20/20 ( half day ) versions of the game have their place in the "do you want fries with that" premature ejectulator segment of the market











If you can dodge a wrench, you're ready for dodgeball.

(and never mind the spandex on those fellows)

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0iXP9yoc4VY"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0iXP9yoc4VY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

> Maybe I'm hardcore old school but that backslapping hanging with the boys mentality that Ben Wallace has exemplified this series has got loser written all over it . And no matter what he does on the court , right there , with his hanging with his old teammates schtick - that is as big and as an important inhibitor to this team's success as what anyone may care to realise


This reminds me of my grandma yelling at Ozzie Guillen in the 80's for "fraternizing with the enemy"... its just silly... pay attention to what goes on when the ball is in play. Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley were great friends... is that why the Suns lost the '93 finals?


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

bullybullz said:


> Actually, it is. He regularly changes his avatar and his music and has his wife Chanda for God's sakes!! Also his friends include Kirk, Gordon, Deng, Sheed, Hamilton, Billups, C-Webb, his wife and many others. At one time he had this picture someone drew of him that said "Hard work pays off." Couldn't believe it but he did.
> 
> Also, the Ben Gordon myspace is real as well.


I don't buy that to be honest with you. Some people can have some pretty elite schemes to try and fool people. For example, the best ultimate fighter ever, Matt Hughes, has a disclaimer right on his official website stating that he does not have a myspace, and has no plans to ever get one. Imposters have been posing as him for a long time though. Same could be said for all of these guys as well. You could be right, but you really have no way of knowing if it's real or not IMO.


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## Headfake98 (Dec 10, 2006)

DaBabyBullz said:


> I don't buy that to be honest with you. Some people can have some pretty elite schemes to try and fool people. For example, the best ultimate fighter ever, Matt Hughes, has a disclaimer right on his official website stating that he does not have a myspace, and has no plans to ever get one. Imposters have been posing as him for a long time though. Same could be said for all of these guys as well. You could be right, but you really have no way of knowing if it's real or not IMO.


It's not real. His interests include "clubing". Come on.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Dornado said:


> This reminds me of my grandma yelling at Ozzie Guillen in the 80's for "fraternizing with the enemy"... its just silly... pay attention to what goes on when the ball is in play. Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley were great friends... is that why the Suns lost the '93 finals?


Jordan learnt the art of beating his opponent with intimidation and/or charm

He was a great mindfooka 

As to your question I suggest you direct that to Chuck

For mine I think that Suns team was good enough to win 

In any matey scenario in pro sports there is a puppet and the puppeteer

I would suggest MJ was tugging on fatso's strings 

Its foolish to underestimate the subtle and sly psychology of this gamesmanship


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Ya'll know DAMN well Ben Wallce isn't the problem here.

This thread is ridiculous.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Headfake98 said:


> Yeah, I honestly don't understand why all the hate on Ben Wallace. What about Gordon, with his 12ppg? Thats like worse than his rookie season. What about Kirk? What about goddamn Skiles? I don't see how trading about a great defensive center in the form of ben wallace is going to help.


Well for starters, Kirk, Ben and most of the other Bulls have never been to the second round so I give them a pass. Second, Ben has been to the ECF the last four years and to the Finals twice so he knows what it means to elevate his game. But obviously with his "I'm playing all right" comments, he just doesn't give a ****. If Ben Wallace was really 'giving his all' as Chauncey said, than I won't blast him but seeing him on the court, he just doesn't. 

Most of the other Bulls try really hard and you can see it in their faces. It's just that they don't have any confidence, thus their pathetic play. For Ben Wallace, this shouldn't be an issue but unfotunately it is because he doesn't want to hurt his best friends too much.

The reason why I would want to trade him is that we can play 5 on 5 on offense not 4 0n 5, get cap space and can go after KG or Jermaine O'Neal, which would elevate and toughen up our team for sure. We also don't have to worry about what **** Ben Wallace does next.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Dornado said:


> So when Wallace plays an integral part in sweeping the defending champs it "had a lot to do with Miami"... but when the team struggles against a far superior opponent its Wallace's fault... couldn't it just be that Detroit is an all-round better basketball team? Couldn't it "have a lot to do" with Detroit being the best team in the East?


Of course it had a lot to do with Miami, Wade was still injured, Shaq was not 100% the whole team was never together for the whole year. Hell, Pat Riley had to step away for awhile because he needed surgery. Basically, the Heat never had any chemistry the whole year and you can see it in the Miami series. They really looked lost at times.

I'm sure if they were healthy, D-Wade would've went to the free throw line 20 times (always attacking, aggressive player, league loves him) and Shaq would've abused Ben Wallace like he did last year in the ECF and the Finals in 2004. The Miami series would've been a different outcome for sure.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

RoRo said:


> there's no point in fighting it.
> people have to back 'their guy'. support their fan club.
> sometimes that means attacking another player (on the same team no less).
> shift the blame (when in reality it's shared), and hopefully no one focuses on how crappy their guy has been doing.


Actually, the whole team has been pathetic. The reason I am specifically talking about Ben Wallace is because of his money we paid for him, he said himself that he would be a beast in the playoffs, he doesn't want to hurt his best friends too much, the other Bulls players still don't have confidence because they are still young and immature, this Pistons team was the team that abondoned Ben Wallace but he doesn't seem too bothered by it as long as he is getting paid. He should be playing like he is out to prove something to the Pistons and the whole world, instead he is out to be friendly and have dinner with his buddies.

His stupid actions after Game 3, him being tardy because of 'traffic' (like he never knew there was any in Chicago), his stupid headband outburst.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

this is probably PJ Brown's last game as a Bull.

just wanted to throw that out there.

:biggrin:

link



> Players on the active roster who likely are playing their final Bulls games include P.J. Brown, Michael Sweetney and Malik Allen.





and no. we aren't trading Ben Wallace. but maybe by next season he'll refer to the Bulls as "we" and not "them".


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## AllEyezonTX (Nov 16, 2006)

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/4799262.html

I think Flip learned alot from the Garnett situation

*Neutralizing Wallace*

"Our lineup neutralizes Ben and their weak-side help," the Pistons' Chris Webber said. "Whoever he's checking, if he leaves that person they are going to get a basket. There is no weak link in our lineup that you can leave consistently."

Detroit coach Flip Saunders, whom Wallace lashed out at last season, was even more generous.

"Ben is probably the best weak-side defender that's ever played this game," Saunders said. "The way we are, both our bigs (Rasheed Wallace and Webber) can play away from the basket. If Ben is matched up with one of them, they have the ability to take him away from the basket."


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> this is probably PJ Brown's last game as a Bull.
> 
> just wanted to throw that out there.
> 
> ...


we'll need an offseason to see if big ben works out with his new team.

but i wouldn't be surprised if he works out with his detroit buddies lol.
but at least we'll have a distraction and excuse for the circus trip (already worried).
and our whole team psyche will be destroyed! we're so fragile!


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/mariotti/382775,CST-SPT-jay13.article

Looks like writers are pissed off at ben wallace as well:

_Bell tolling for Big Ben
Bulls lured Wallace with big bucks to be their veteran leader, but his overall lack of intensity should be setting off alarms 

May 13, 2007
BY JAY MARIOTTI Sun-Times Columnist



*But then came the week that exposed him, the week when Big Ben couldn't tell time, the week when the former Piston returned to suburban Detroit and seemed more preoccupied with text-messaging his former teammates about dinner plans than pulverizing them in the Eastern Conference semifinals with feral energy and 20-rebound dominations.*

Click to expand...





*I'm done pampering him. I want to see Big Ben be Big Money.*

Click to expand...





Attitude in the wrong place
*Well, yes, Ben, you do have to explain yourself. You have a $60million contract. Fans pay ungodly sums for tickets. Your employers have bitten their tongues and defended you all season, even when you openly defied Skiles' archaic but boldly underlined no-headband rule. At least Wallace could have apologized. Instead, he gives us attitude -- the very attitude missing against the Pistons. *

Click to expand...





*For $60 million, Wallace hasn't made enough of a difference. In fact, seeing how the Bulls could use some expensive offseason reinforcements, his signing may be remembered as a huge mistake. They couldn't dump the remaining years and money if they tried, meaning John Paxson will have to work around the contract if the Bulls want to make a blockbuster deal for Kevin Garnett or Pau Gasol. Wallace hasn't reached the point of bustdom yet, but if he wants to turn around a city of downward-pointing thumbs, he'll ratchet up the intensity today and have one of those fierce playoff games of yore. Then he'll follow with a better second season and earn his money. *

Click to expand...





*The reason Paxson recruited Wallace last July, with Jerry Reinsdorf's padlocked checkbook, was for this precise scenario. By removing the head from the Detroit monster, he sought to make the Bulls stronger at the Pistons' expense. But the Ben we recall in past postseasons -- rejections, rebounds, changing shots, shaking the building with brute force -- has shown up only sporadically in a defining series.*

Click to expand...





*But what kind of message does soft treatment for Wallace send to teammates who bear the entirety of Skiles' wrath? Isn't it a double standard when Duhon doesn't play in Game 3 -- in part, because he was late for a film-study session? *

Click to expand...





*Actually, he came here for a lot of money. Wallace has been such a puzzle, he won't even pull out his Poppin' Fresh hairdo in this series. Statistics show the Bulls usually win with his ''Fear the 'fro'' look. The least Ben can do, in desperate times, is blow it out today. 

Assuming he knows game time is 2:30 p.m.*

Click to expand...

Great article. This is pretty much how I feel about this nba player. He just doesn't care enough to want to beat the Pistons._


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

Teammates happy Wallace on their side



> "When you lose, people are going to complain, but we know what Ben Wallace does for us every night," Hinrich said. "A ton of rebounds and bunch of little things, deflections, more opportunities on the offensive end. Anybody who says he's not having a good series doesn't really know the game."


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

HAHA, all the writers are making fun of Ben Wallace!! I LOVE IT!!!!:clap2: :clap2: :yay: :lol: :clap: :cheers: 

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/telander/382763,CST-SPT-rick13.article

_Puzzling experience
Sunday stew | Go figure: Bulls' struggles being blamed on youth, but 2004 champion Pistons were younger_

May 13, 2007
BY RICK TELANDER Sun-Times Columnist


> • *When Scott Skiles said, ''You'd have to be blind'' not to see that ''experience has been some sort of factor'' in the Pistons' success against the Bulls, I had to stop and wonder.
> 
> When exactly are you old enough to challenge for the NBA title? Does a player need an AARP card? Or is ''experience'' just another word for talent?
> 
> ...





> • *After the Game 3 debacle at the United Center on Thursday night -- a 19-point Bulls lead turned into a seven-point loss -- general manager John Paxson walked down the UC hallway looking as grim and miserable and angry as I have ever seen him.
> 
> I've known Paxson a long time -- my son and I even went to his father-son basketball camp years ago, back when Pax was just a retired ballplayer-turned-radio-analyst -- and this was not a pleasant sight to see.
> 
> ...





> *Wallace seems more and more like that cliched guy who won on the court with another team -- Detroit -- and now is fulfilling the other side of his life goal sheet, winning money.
> 
> Got the ring, get the bling.
> 
> ...





> *Big Ben doesn't even hang this much with his Chicago teammates.
> 
> It makes you wonder if he'll take the Pistons' team bus for Game 4 today at the United Center.*


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

> http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/bulls.asp?id=312396
> 
> _Since the season’s end appears to be imminent, this is a good time to consult the Magic Eight Ball for some key questions:
> 
> ...


_



Q. Is Tyrus Thomas untouchable this summer?

M8B: “Cannot predict now.”

This is an interesting question. *Another is, “Will Minnesota kick itself someday for not trading Kevin Garnett for Tyrus Thomas, Thabo Sefolosha, P.J. Brown and a couple of draft picks last February?”*

Click to expand...

If that was the trade for KG, that would've put us over the top for sure. We don't get rid of any of our core players and we can contend now and probably beaten Detroit and been champs this year.

PG Kirk Hinrich
SG Ben Gordon
SF Luol Deng
PF Kevin 'da kid' Garnett
c ben wallace

Bench:

PG Chris Duhon
SG Adrian Griffin 
SF Viktor Khryapa
PF Andres Nocioni
C Malik Allen

Scrubs:
Andre Barrett
Michael Sweetney
Martynas Andriuskevicius_


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

RoRo said:


> Teammates happy Wallace on their side


I saw that article and I thought it seemed like the Bulls players were lying to themselves. Kind of like the headband fiasco.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Even ESPN writers are getting into the act now!!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-070514

1. _Ben Wallace is a man of his word: Big Ben insisted before the series that the Pistons will be his enemy only during the 48-minute periods when the games are being played._ 

*You'd think he might have changed his mind by now, what will all the chop-busting from his ex-teammates via text message that I alluded to in my last blog entry, but there he was after Sunday's game mixing it up with the Pistons and their families in the corridor outside the locker rooms. 

Wonder if he'll show up in the stands at The Palace during the next series to cheer on his buddies. *

Even after a Bulls win, Ben hangs out. Come on. You just won GOD DAMN. Cheer and hang out with your Bulls teammates not Detroit.

What a ****er. Stupid mother****ing *****.

Trade this ****er PLEASE.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

bullybullz said:


> I saw that article and I thought it seemed like the Bulls players were lying to themselves. Kind of like the headband fiasco.


oh someone's lying to their self. it's not the bulls players though.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

RoRo said:


> oh someone's lying to their self. it's not the bulls players though.


I said it seemed like, not that they are. Please, learn English grammar before accusing someone. Thank you.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

bullybullz said:


> I said it seemed like, not that they are. Please, learn English grammar before accusing someone. Thank you.


speaking of accusing, why say kirk and gordon are lying? 

did you get a good look at their facial expressions? 
did kc hint that there was sarcasm? are they notorious liars?
would it be inconvient to your agenda to put that article and those comments up?


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

RoRo said:


> speaking of accusing, why say kirk and gordon are lying?
> 
> did you get a good look at their facial expressions?
> did kc hint that there was sarcasm? are they notorious liars?
> would it be inconvient to your agenda to put that article and those comments up?


What do you expect the Bulls players to say?? That he sucks?? Of course not. They are going to say good things about him. It's called human nature. Now whether that's how Bulls players truly feel that way are another matter and that's what I was pointing at a few posts back.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

bullybullz said:


> Of course it had a lot to do with Miami, *Wade was still injured,* *Shaq was not 100%* the whole team was never together for the whole year. Hell, Pat Riley had to step away for awhile because he needed surgery. Basically, the Heat never had any chemistry the whole year and you can see it in the Miami series. They really looked lost at times.
> 
> I'm sure if they were healthy, D-Wade would've went to the free throw line 20 times (always attacking, aggressive player, league loves him) and *Shaq would've abused Ben Wallace like he did last year in the ECF and the Finals in 2004.* The Miami series would've been a different outcome for sure.


This is interesting to me. I have a few questions for you.

(1) Was Shaq injured during the Heat/Bulls series? I never heard of any report that he was injured. 

(2) You have spent many posts talking about how Wallace isn't bringing it in the post-season this year, unlike in the past. Yet you cite two recent examples of Wallace as a Piston when he got "abused" in the post season. And by a player that he neutralized in the post-season as a Bull, no less. So which is it? Was Wallace dominant in the playoffs as a Piston or did he get "abused" as a Piston by the guy he just handled as a Bull?

(3) Do you think Ben Wallace is playing better or worse in the post-season for the Bulls than he did last year in the post-season as a Piston? Before you answer, this is a breakdown of Wallace's post-season stats as a Piston last year and as a Bull this year:

Piston-Wallace: 4.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 1.7 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.2 bpg, .465 fg%, .273 ft%.

Bull-Wallace: 9.4 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.5 spg, 1.8 bpg, .542 fg%, .575 ft%.

You said he's "two different players" from when he was a Piston to now as a Bull. I agree. But looking at the most recent returns, it appears the latter "different player" is the better one. Double the points, same boards, slightly less assists, more steals, more blocks, much higher field goal % and a way, way higher ft % (which has been very important for Chicago this post-season). 

(4) Didn't you just spend the better part of a season and 1 round of the playoffs complimenting the veteran leadership, presence, and play of *both* PJ Brown *and* Ben Wallace? What changed, when and why?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> And Thank You for letting Chris 1-legged Webber handle you this series.


Chris Webber is "handling" Ben Wallace to the tune of 6.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, and *2.50 turnovers *pg.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

um, so i guess we're not doing the post a link and a snippet of the story thing anymore?

i thought FULL ENTIRE ARTICLES were supposed to be parsed? just curious. 

mods?

bullybullz, you are so tiring. i thought webber's been held scoreless in two straight games. of course only sunday's counts!

like kirk said, if you think ben's not contributing, then you don't know basketball.

IMO.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

bullybullz said:


> What do you expect the Bulls players to say?? That he sucks?? Of course not. They are going to say good things about him. It's called human nature. Now whether that's how Bulls players truly feel that way are another matter and that's what I was pointing at a few posts back.


what do you expect the sport writers to say? 

something nice and boring? of course not. 
they're trying to sell papers. so they'll say anything controversial. 
yet here you are taking their ramblings as gospel. 
and calling actual quotes from players lies without the slightest bit of evidence, it's just a hunch. lol.
why? because it fits your agenda.

at least have the decency to wait until the bulls lose to continue your anti-wallace campaign.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

mizenkay said:


> um, so i guess we're not doing the post a link and a snippet of the story thing anymore?
> 
> i thought FULL ENTIRE ARTICLES were supposed to be parsed? just curious.
> 
> ...


unnecessary. - KJ


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

RoRo said:


> what do you expect the sport writers to say?
> 
> something nice and boring? of course not.
> they're trying to sell papers. so they'll say anything controversial.
> ...


So what you said yourself about writers writing controversial articles to sell papers fit's into my category of maybe not being the truth. Many sports articles are blown out of proportion and this article fit's the category as any other sport's article. Thanks for defending me!! Appreciate it!!

Besides, I'm not the only one with an anti-Wallace campaign, writers for the Bulls are too.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

bullybullz said:


> So what you said yourself about writers writing controversial articles to sell papers fit's into my category of maybe not being the truth. Many sports articles are blown out of proportion and this article fit's the category as any other sport's article. Thanks for defending me!! Appreciate it!!
> 
> Besides, I'm not the only one with an anti-Wallace campaign, writers for the Bulls are too.


lol...sound logic there. what's the point of arguing with a brick wall.
there's a huge difference between mariotti talking about his opinions and an actual QUOTE from a player. are you saying KC Johnson made up a quote by Kirk and Ben. keep it up you're doing great.


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## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

Talk about mailing it in tonight, and he had the wrong approach after the game, he kept giving them credit, saying the Bulls definately had the pressure, that they only have to win 1 while we have to win 2. Gordon had the much better approach, saying the Bulls have no pressure, nothing to lose, just playing and leaving it all out there, pretty sad that you're 60 mill dollar man is getting disturbed by pressure, might as well wear their jersey next game


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

Can we leave Wallace in Detroit at some bus stop? I;m sure the hard working folks of Detroit could straighten him out.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I like Ben and I hate him. It really depends. I wouldn't trade him unless it was for a good deal. Now if we had a chance to get a young center for him, I'll go by Pax's ability to develop talent if he does a trade. I wouldn't trade Big Ben for Darko (bust). 

He sucked tonight stats wise. Played alright. I just wish he had some sort of jumper like PJ that he could knock down after some long rebounds. I could accept that for lack of a post game.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Bullybullz, I asked you a few questions on the last page of this thread. I'm still hoping you will answer them. Will you?


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## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

Ughhh, then they show a later interview, when he's finished dressing, and he's got a huge smile on his face,
I'm thinking 'ohh, he's finally happy/giving credit to his current teammates', nope, he was saying 'They only got to win one. I've been to battle with those guys, they know they only need one' What the hell, just start your Palace usher application for when you retire now


Ben, you better give me 15 rebounds Thursday because I am really starting to hate you


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Ron Cey said:


> Bullybullz, I asked you a few questions on the last page of this thread. I'm still hoping you will answer them. Will you?


Sorry Ron Cey, didn't notice until now.

Regarding your questions:

1) Well, Shaq came back from a major knee surgery during the course of the season, so no matter how well you prepare yourself to be as healthy as before, it just won't happen during the course of the season especially when you're as fat as Shaq and hard for a player his size and weight to be back in great shape.

_At 35, O'Neal isn't as healthy or as productive as he used to be, but there didn't seem much credence to the rumors of him being traded. _

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/847/news;_ylt=Avt9rfCZZexd3umHKVZCmKKkvLYF

2) Well I only thought as a Piston, Big Ben only got abused when he had to go up against Shaq. Granted, no one can truly contain him but when you're a one dimensional player (only defense and no offense) you still have to take care of what you do best and what you are known as and simply put, Shaq always abused Ben Wallace unless Shaq is not healthy (this series against Chicago).

It's funny, yesterday, I watched the 2006 ECF Game 1 again and it's amazing how different Ben Wallace was. Sure he got manhandeled by Shaq but he did so much more in drawing charges, altering shot's throwing down alley-oop dunks, being athletic and all over the court wrecking havoc and displaying his full arsenal of effort but watching him now it's just different. It's simply amazing. It's too bad. The money got into him. He really could've helped us out tremendously had he gave a **** but unfortunately he doesn't and thus we couldn't beat the Pistons this series (let's be serious, Bulls AREN'T GOING TO BEAT THE PISTONS)

Also Sheed was different too. He clearly was not the same player because of his sprained ankle. He seemed to be limping each time he walked or ran up the court. Kind of like Nocioni in this series. He was a major reason why they couldn't beat the Heat last year.

3) Well for one stat's aren't everything and as Scott Skiles says many times, if you only look at stat's when you're regarding Ben Wallace, you don't know basketball or something to that extent. And it's true. Ben Wallace was a lot more effective, made more of a presence, more energy and was simply a better player. Maybe because it was his contract year. Regardless, he still was great in the postseason. 

He may have not made his free throws (27 percent) but he never was known as a free throw shooter anyways. Shaq shot 37% last year in the postseason. So you can't really blame Ben last year in the postseason. It's the other players that should've done more so Ben wouldn't have been put under that situation and pressure in that Hack-a-Ben strategy in the first place. 

True, he may have not scored a whole lot but he doesn't need to when you got Chauncey, Rip, Tayshaun, Sheed, McDyesss all capable of scoring 20 points on any given night. Also, Flip rarely gave plays that included Ben and thus he hardly got touches to be given an opportunity to score.

4) I still compliment P.J. Brown very much (what a game he had-tremendous-never get's enough credit) but Ben Wallace just hasn't done enough. Sure his scoring may have increased this postseason but that's natural if you're ACTUALLY part of the offense. Also I remember on dailyherald.com right before the postseason, Ben Wallace said himself that he was going to be a beast in the postseason and he certainly hasn't shown that. That's what really pisses me off. When you say something but you don't back it up.

The reason we signed Ben Wallace was to finally get over the hump and contend for a championship. It's just too bad it won't happen, especially when Ben Wallace has been average at best.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

RoRo said:


> lol...sound logic there. what's the point of arguing with a brick wall.
> there's a huge difference between mariotti talking about his opinions and an actual QUOTE from a player. are you saying KC Johnson made up a quote by Kirk and Ben. keep it up you're doing great.


Thanks. I don't care if it's a quote from a player. Writers always spin what players say. Remember the P.J. Brown demanding a trade article???? He said that it was greatly exaggerated and misquoted and the 'free money' article in which Tyrus Thomas only wanted to collect his cash for the slam dunk contest. Tyrus also said, he was misinterpreted. Writers will do anything for money and to create controversey.

A perfect example is a *RUMOR*. Many writers put stuff and quote a player (especially when it's a player demanding a trade) that said it but the player always comes out later that he never said anything like that. Recent examples: Brett Favre, Jermaine O'Neal.

So yes, quotes can also be spinned or changed in order to create a stir. In this article in which the Bulls players praised Ben Wallace, just because Kirk and Gordon said it doesn't mean it's how they truly feel. I also said it *SEEMED* like it so I wasn't accusing the Bulls players of lying, I was just being neutral. 

Keep it up, you're doing great.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

And for the record, despite what I consider solid post-season play by Ben Wallace (excellent against the Heat and decent against the Pistons), his comments and off-court behavior in this Pistons series infuriates me. 

Frankly, he needs to shut the **** up and stop talking about, and to, the Pistons. 

He's supposed to be a Bull. Act like one.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

bullybullz said:


> (let's be serious, Bulls AREN'T GOING TO BEAT THE PISTONS)


Let's be serious, why aren't the Bulls going to beat the Pistons? 
Because they can't force a 7th game on Thursday? I'm not a betting man, but if I were I'd take that bet.
Because they can't win again at the Palace on Monday? 

Let's be serious: It's the Pistons who are in trouble, not the Bulls. The Bulls have figured out their zone, and figured out how to stop Billips. Ultimately, they are the deeper and better team, even with Nocioni injured. At this point in a playoff series the officials are not inclined to play favorites, which definitely works to the Bulls advantage.

I think Ben Wallace has played well in this series. He was spectacular against Shaq in the Miami series. If the Bulls pull this one out -- and I think there is a good chance they might -- Ben Wallace will be part of the reason.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

MC Bulls, I agree he was big against Miami, but he has been a zero against the Pistons.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

I really don't see the Bulls trading Wallace for anything but a low post scorer. If they can't get that it's simply not worth it to trade him away.


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## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

Today I figured it'd be a bad traffic day, so I planned ahead around it. On the way home from this, I get to hear breaking news on the Score that it's been 10-15 minutes past the deadline and Ben Wallace still not in the building, late again. They talked about how the team even gives the players a free hotel room downtown to help with this. Wow, after doing it already in the biggest series/games in forever, AGAIN

I think the end of that game tonight was the happiest I've seen him all series

Joe Dumars knew EXACTLY what he was doing


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

YOu can't trade what no one wants. 

Ben Wallace is John Starks.

Paxson, I will defend you forever if you can somehow figure out a way to give Benedict Wallace away this off-season. I'd rather play 4 on 5. Atleast the team will know the reality.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Why don't we trade him to the Pistons for one of Richard Hamilton's facemask?? That sounds like a fair deal for both sides.


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## Grey (Apr 14, 2004)

bullybullz said:


> Why don't we trade him to the Pistons for one of Richard Hamilton's facemask?? That sounds like a fair deal for both sides.


How is that a fair deal for the Pistons?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

eymang said:


> Today I figured it'd be a bad traffic day, so I planned ahead around it. On the way home from this, I get to hear breaking news on the Score that it's been 10-15 minutes past the deadline and Ben Wallace still not in the building, late again. They talked about how the team even gives the players a free hotel room downtown to help with this. Wow, after doing it already in the biggest series/games in forever, AGAIN
> 
> I think the end of that game tonight was the happiest I've seen him all series
> 
> Joe Dumars knew EXACTLY what he was doing


He was 14 minutes late the first time, and exactly 14 minutes late the second time. I thought it was a superstition thing.


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