# Did the Magic really get better?



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Look, obviously Vince > Hedo. I'm not even going to dispute that or listen to anybody say otherwise. But is Vince > Hedo + Courtney Lee + Alston? There's no way he is.

It's sad because if they were willing to pay Hedo they would have had the best starting 5 in the league.


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## Omega (Apr 11, 2005)

doesnt really matter anymore seeing as how boston and LA went and shat on everyone elses aspirations


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

what? alston shouldn't even be part of the 3, since the magic will have jameer back.. and he's way better.

so it's more like vc+meer vs. hedo+lee (if you base it on their 08-09 playoff run).


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

depends on team chemistry. They have more talent though.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Omega said:


> doesnt really matter anymore seeing as how boston and LA went and shat on everyone elses aspirations


Orlando could have kept Hedo and been every bit the contender Boston is. Probably more because Jurassic Park is going to fall apart inevitably.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

I don't think they got _a lot_ better, but they weren't going to win with the roster they had so I guess they had to do something.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

The answer to this question will ultimately be decided by what happens in next year's playoffs. I voted no!


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

briaN37 said:


> I don't think they got _a lot_ better, but they weren't going to win with the roster they had so I guess they had to do something.


Weren't they just 3 games away from winning a championship with their 2nd best player injured? Courtney Lee is a really good player too.


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

They still have a chance to land Brandon Bass or something.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

afobisme said:


> what? alston shouldn't even be part of the 3, since the magic will have jameer back.. and he's way better.
> 
> so it's more like vc+meer vs. hedo+lee (if you base it on their 08-09 playoff run).


They have VC versus having Hedo+Alston+Lee if they had stayed pat. Jameer is on both sides of the equation so he cancels out. That makes the comparison VC versus Hedo+Alston+Lee.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Yeah, I like Lee a lot. I don't think anybody really thought the Magic had a chance against the Lakers, although it was actually a Dwight Howard free throw or Derek Fisher miss away from being an actual series. Other legit contenders would also be looking to make moves to improve too so I guess they didn't want to stand pat.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

The '93 Heat said:


> They have VC versus having Hedo+Alston+Lee if they had stayed pat. Jameer is on both sides of the equation so he cancels out. That makes the comparison VC versus Hedo+Alston+Lee.


im not sure why alson and the 10 minutes he would have played woulda really made a difference. instead of of having alston's contract rot, they kinda fused it with turk's contract to make a vince carter. the magic have pietrus anyways, so they have a decent backup still.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

afobisme said:


> im not sure why alson and the 10 minutes he would have played woulda really made a difference. instead of of having alston's contract rot, they kinda fused it with turk's contract to make a vince carter. the magic have pietrus anyways, so they have a decent backup still.


Backup PG is more important than you trivialize it to be. You say they already have a decent backup in Pietrus but they need a new starter because they lost Lee. Does Pietrus start and cause them to weaken their bench or does he sit on the bench and weaken their starting unit? Can't have it both ways.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Hedo isn't that good and Jameer replaces what Alston did, plus a ton more. So yes, the Magic are better with Vince, without a doubt.


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## Vivaldi (Nov 12, 2006)

They are about the same


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Cap said:


> Hedo isn't that good and Jameer replaces what Alston did, plus a ton more. So yes, the Magic are better with Vince, without a doubt.


They could have gone into next season with Alston and Jameer both on the roster. I'm not comparing last year's injured roster to a potentially 100% roster this season. I'm comparing the rosters they could have started opening day with and I can't see how they improved. They lost 2 starters and one of the best backup points in the league and all they have to show for it is VC. That's a lot of talent going out and they're not replenishing it (so far).


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

^ That comparison doesn't make any sense, since based on the team the Magic had in the postseason, they're clearly better off now with a healthy Jameer Nelson. Unless you think them not having a back-up PG like Alston is really that big of an impact loss. Because it really isn't.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

They still have Anthony Johnson who is an OK backup. I guess the Magic will count on JJ Reddick to step up this season, coming off the bench.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

The '93 Heat said:


> Backup PG is more important than you trivialize it to be. You say they already have a decent backup in Pietrus but they need a new starter because they lost Lee. Does Pietrus start and cause them to weaken their bench or does he sit on the bench and weaken their starting unit? Can't have it both ways.


backup PGs shouldn't be making as much as alston, and it's way better packaging alston for a player who fills a role that you need at another position. alston is more like an accessory to the team. oh, and the summer sweepstakes hasn't ended. orlando could land marion, grant hill, or maybe even dyess. if i'm not mistaken, they still have MLE money to spend.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Cap said:


> ^ That comparison doesn't make any sense, since based on the team the Magic had in the postseason, they're clearly better off now with a healthy Jameer Nelson. Unless you think them not having a back-up PG like Alston is really that big of an impact loss. Because it really isn't.


They would have had a healthy Jameer Nelson next season regardless. You're comparing the injured playoff roster to this current roster and saying they're improved. That's a weak strategy considering the fact Jameer would be starting this season regardless if Vince was there or not. I'm comparing the potential rosters they could have had next season, VC versus Lee+Hedo+Alston. VC is not worth 2 starters and a solid backup PG.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Losing Hedo and gaining VC made that deal more of a sidegrade than anything else especially since Orlando lost some depth. Imo so far they've danced around their weaknesses and haven't made personnel changes on the impact the other contenders have. Preseason is still young though.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

afobisme said:


> backup PGs shouldn't be making as much as alston, and it's way better packaging alston for a player who fills a role that you need at another position. alston is more like an accessory to the team. oh, and the summer sweepstakes hasn't ended. orlando could land marion, grant hill, or maybe even dyess. if i'm not mistaken, they still have MLE money to spend.


They took back more salary by trading that backup PG in the VC deal. There's no way they could have just made his salary disappear for next season. In trades you have to make salaries match up.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

The '93 Heat said:


> They would have had a healthy Jameer Nelson next season regardless. You're comparing the injured playoff roster to this current roster and saying they're improved. That's a weak strategy considering the fact Jameer would be starting this season regardless if Vince was there or not. I'm comparing the potential rosters they could have had next season, VC versus Lee+Hedo+Alston. VC is not worth 2 starters and a solid backup PG.


Right, but you're creating a scenario that doesn't really matter that much, since the Magic got to the Finals without Nelson, so the fact that they'll have him starting instead of Alston with Anthony Johnson backing him up, instead of Alston backing up Jameer, and then Carter in place of Hedo, speaks for itself. I really don't see the need to manufacture this scenario where the Magic aren't as good as last season. Because fact is, Jameer didn't play, so they are better than last year. You saying "They already were going to have Nelson" means little, because they are still better than last year if Jameer is healthy and Vince is healthy, so they clearly got better as the title of the thread asked. I do understand your POV, though.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

The first mistake you made 93 Heat is saying this is a Vince for Hedo, Lee, Alston trade. There's a 21 year old PF also going to the Magic named Ryan Anderson. Consensus around the league is that he's a nice young PF and equally as good as Lee. He's not just some spot up shooter from the arc, he can actually play. There's no way he wont give the Magic meaningful minutes next year.

Secondly, I think the Magic overachieved last year. If KG had been healthy, I doubt they'd be in the finals. They'd have been looking to improve regardless. Lakers just got Artest, Spurs RJ, Cleveland Shaq, Boston Sheed, etc etc. Teams with title aspirations are constantly looking for ways to get better, you cant just stand pat and expect things to go your way. Trading for Vince should make them better, but will that be enough to win the title...I am not sure about that. I still think their bench is thin and God forbid Dwight goes down, there's no one to step in for him. Lets see how they tweak their bench going into the season, they have got a shot at the 'ship.

P.S. Vegas thinks highly of their chances cause they have them at 6/1 right now.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Cap said:


> Right, but you're creating a scenario that doesn't really matter that much, since the Magic got to the Finals without Nelson, so the fact that they'll have him starting instead of Alston with Anthony Johnson backing him up, instead of Alston backing up Jameer, and then Carter in place of Hedo, speaks for itself. I really don't see the need to manufacture this scenario where the Magic aren't as good as last season. Because fact is, Jameer didn't play, so they are better than last year. You saying "They already were going to have Nelson" means little, because they are still better than last year if Jameer is healthy and Vince is healthy, so they clearly got better as the title of the thread asked. I do understand your POV, though.


The fact that they previously made the finals has no bearing on future success. The single greatest determinant of success is the talent of the roster and by trading two starters and a backup PG for 1 starter slightly better than Hedo they have decreased the talent of the roster. Anthony Jonson is nowhere near as good as Alston and what they could have had in a starter, backup tandem.

And like I said, Jameer was going to play next year for either incarnation of the Magic so you can't say that getting him back makes them better than they would have been without VC.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

The '93 Heat said:


> They took back more salary by trading that backup PG in the VC deal. There's no way they could have just made his salary disappear for next season. In trades you have to make salaries match up.


that was never my point. my point is that you're paying rafer alston 5.25 million next year to play 10 minutes per game when you alerady have a decent backup in anthony johnson. might as well take that 5.25 million and turn it into a player who's better than turk.

on a side note, i wonder what the chances are that orlando gets grant hill.. he must feel at least slightly bad for being injured practically the whole time he was in orlando. he also lives in orlando for the offseason, and i think his wife tamia is there full time (not sure on that)... not to mention that orlando is now considered a contender.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

is gortat goign back to orlando? if not then that pretty much cancels every effort made by the magic to get better.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

HB said:


> The first mistake you made 93 Heat is saying this is a Vince for Hedo, Lee, Alston trade. There's a 21 year old PF also going to the Magic named Ryan Anderson. Consensus around the league is that he's a nice young PF and equally as good as Lee. He's not just some spot up shooter from the arc, he can actually play. There's no way he wont give the Magic meaningful minutes next year.
> 
> Secondly, I think the Magic overachieved last year. If KG had been healthy, I doubt they'd be in the finals. They'd have been looking to improve regardless. Lakers just got Artest, Spurs RJ, Cleveland Shaq, Boston Sheed, etc etc. Teams with title aspirations are constantly looking for ways to get better, you cant just stand pat and expect things to go your way. Trading for Vince should make them better, but will that be enough to win the title...I am not sure about that. I still think their bench is thin and God forbid Dwight goes down, there's no one to step in for him. Lets see how they tweak their bench going into the season, they have got a shot at the 'ship.
> 
> P.S. Vegas thinks highly of their chances cause they have them at 6/1 right now.


Okay, I agree with your first point. I'm overlooking Ryan Anderson and I don't think he will play much next year. I could definitely be wrong about that.

I don't agree with your second point at all. Just because they overachieved doesn't mean they could not upgrade their talent with exceptions, trades, etc. in order to compete with the other contenders. They decreased the amount of talent on this roster, and that's my complaint. The VC trade itself was great but within the context of their cap it's turning out to be a burden they can't shoulder. You don't make that move if you're not bringing back Hedo, otherwise you're just another pretender.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

The '93 Heat said:


> They would have had a healthy Jameer Nelson next season regardless. You're comparing the injured playoff roster to this current roster and saying they're improved. That's a weak strategy considering the fact Jameer would be starting this season regardless if Vince was there or not. I'm comparing the potential rosters they could have had next season, VC versus Lee+Hedo+Alston. VC is not worth 2 starters and a solid backup PG.


he

If you look at the swapping of players like that, then no the obvious answer is of course not VC is not worth 2 starters and a backup point guard. But the Magic sorely need a player who could get them big baskets when they needed it. I know there's plenty of people who started watching the Magic in the Eastern Conference Finals and think they know everything about our team (after saying we were going to get throttled by the Cavs), but this was not Rafer Alston's team. It's Jameer's. Even after Rafer's impressive stint in the playoffs, management wanted there to be no contest who our leader was next season -- Jameer. Courtney was obviously a tough piece to give up, as he was a solid compliment to our starting lineup, but the fact remains that VC gives us the one true skill that we were desperately needing all throughout the season (and was really made evident in the post season). 

People overlook that while Hedo made clutch baskets, he was highly inconsistent for us throughout the entire season. He disappeared when Jameer became "the man" early on in this season. Vince is the athletic perimeter player that can get to the bucket and make a layup during crunch time (hedo never did this). The truth is that the skills of the players that left are easier to replicate than the skills of the players we received back in the trade. People also seem to overlook we got Ryan Anderson in the trade, whom I prefer to Tony Battie. He had a bad contract and did not uphold its value in our system.

Additionally, Otis is correct. This summer, there are more players than money. Someone will fall through the cracks to us, and it is only after that should we evaluate this Magic team. We only have 8 players under contract as it stands now.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

OMGBaselRocks! said:


> is gortat goign back to orlando? if not then that pretty much cancels every effort made by the magic to get better.


As much **** as I am going to get for making this comment, the Magic's system makes other players look and play better than they actually are. Stars like Dwight and even a player like Rashard help people around them get huge paydays.


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## eddymac (Jun 23, 2005)

The offseason is early, they still need to add a PF to compliment Howard downlow, and they need to replace Gortat and Battie, and they need another perimeter player.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

oh, and you know.. adding VC didn't necessarily cost the magic turk. he could have stayed had he not opted out.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Jameer Nelson isn't really a point guard.He just isn't big enough to play the two.He's basically a shooting guard without the ability to guard his position(or any other).Hedo was Orlando's main playmaker last year and they haven't replaced that by having Nelson back.Alston is a much better playmaker than Nelson.He's as good or better at everything except making shots.At the best Orlando is slightly worse than they were last year.The only reason they made the finals were that they matched up well against the Cavaliers...And the main reason for this is now in toronto.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^You do realize VC qualifies as a playmaker right?


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

They're gonna miss Hedo's playmaking ability. Jameer isn't a playmaking PG, he's more of a scorer. Vince will fill in some of that area, but they need to find it somewhere else as well.

If I would've read the thread, I would've saw that Diable wrote damn near the same thing I did. lol


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Since when has Hedo become a better playmaker than Vince? I keep hearing this being brought up over and over again.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

See to me, if you gain Vince Carter and Ryan Anderson and lose Hedo Turkoglu, Rafer Alston, Courtney Lee, Marcin Gortat and Tony Battie... you either plateaued or you got worse. They will lose five rotation players of their top 9 players from their team. That doesn't seem like the best offseason.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Wow, before the playoffs we couldnt win anything with Hedo as our only playmaker. Now all of a sudden, losing Hedo is the end of the world! :laugh: Please, everybody just stop it! Most of you have been wrong about the Magic all year long, now all of a sudden you guys become experts about what the team needs? No, as always, most of you know absolutely nothing when it comes to the Magic. Hedo used to be a laughing stock around the league as our 'closer', but now all a sudden he's a better closer than Vince ****ing Carter? All I can say is wow.... And Alston is a better playmaker than Jameer? Are you people kidding me?? :rotf:

But let me start by saying, there were never any gaurantees that we could keep Hedo even w/o doing the VC trade(Our max offer was a reluctant 5yr/45mil, and as you see Hedo had better offers than that. Not to mention, his family was his1st priority and his wife really loved Toronto, not to mention they offered him the most $$$. I'm sure Hedo loved playing here and we all love him, but Toronto was the best move for his family). I agree the Magic lose some depth in the backcourt w/ the trade, but the starting line-up should be better(granted we get solid PF like Bass). Anderson is also gonna be a good player off the bench. He is a skilled PF. A natural shooter with solid ball handling ability. I think people are really sleeping on him. SVG was raving about him even more than he was raving about Lee before last year so he should certainly be good in our system. Looking at the team right now, as currently structured, isn't really fair to us tho. One or two pick-ups and the outlook on our team could be look alot different. Same goes for a team like Cleveland. All im saying is be patient. It's too early to judge the full impact the trade will have. 

I look at it as, if we stand pat and Hedo doesnt re-sign. We could have looked like:

Meer/Alston/AJ
Lee/JJ
Pietrus
Shard/Battie
Dwight/

or, we could be pro-active for possibly losing Hedo:

Meer/AJ/Pargo from SL?
VC/JJ
Shard/Pietrus
??/Anderson
Dwight/??

As you can see. One or two more pieces and the 2nd unit is alot nicer than we possibly could've been.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

HB said:


> The first mistake you made 93 Heat is saying this is a Vince for Hedo, Lee, Alston trade. There's a 21 year old PF also going to the Magic named Ryan Anderson. *Consensus around the league is that he's a nice young PF and equally as good as Lee.* He's not just some spot up shooter from the arc, he can actually play. There's no way he wont give the Magic meaningful minutes next year.



Courtney Lee is more valuable at this point in his career. Sure Anderson can shoot the 3 at 35%. However,he only shot 39% from the field. Courtney Lee at this point is a more efficient player, since he shoots about 45% from the field and 40% from 3 point range. Lee is also a solid defender; it remains to be seen if Anderson can be as effective on that end of the floor.

What Anderson does have on Lee is he's almost 3 years younger than Lee. He will also benefit from playing in Orlando's system which will take advantage of his 3 point shooting ability. But right now Lee is more valuable than Anderson.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Wow, before the playoffs we couldnt win anything with Hedo as our only playmaker. Now all of a sudden, losing Hedo is the end of the world! :laugh: Please, everybody just stop it! Most of you have been wrong about the Magic all year long, now all of a sudden you guys become experts about what the team needs? No, as always, most of you know absolutely nothing when it comes to the Magic. *Hedo used to be a laughing stock around the league as our 'closer', but now all a sudden he's a better closer than Vince ****ing Carter?* All I can say is wow.... And Alston is a better playmaker than Jameer? Are you people kidding me?? :rotf:


Nobody even said that.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

The '93 Heat said:


> The fact that they previously made the finals has no bearing on future success. The single greatest determinant of success is the talent of the roster and by trading two starters and a backup PG for 1 starter slightly better than Hedo they have decreased the talent of the roster. Anthony Jonson is nowhere near as good as Alston and what they could have had in a starter, backup tandem.
> 
> And like I said, Jameer was going to play next year for either incarnation of the Magic so you can't say that getting him back makes them better than they would have been without VC.


And again, your point means nothing, is moot, when reality is that Jameer didn't play and they still got to the Finals. They didn't have him for more than half the season. So assuming he plays all next season, they will be a _better team_ than they were in 08-09, and the title asks will the Magic be better than last year. The answer is undeniably yes unless they replace all their reserves with no one (which isn't possible given the 12 man rule). Saying they "Would have had him anyway" means nothing, it's a useless qualifier. Get it?


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Cap said:


> So assuming play all year next season, they will be a better team than they were in 08-09.


Whether they will have more success or not is irrelevant. The question posed was whether they are better. You're comparing an injured roster to a healthy one and saying that they are better because they are healthier. That's tangential.

For the record, Jameer was on the roster last year, so when I ask, "Are they better," I'm asking about the differences in the two rosters. Just comparing injuries and potential successes related to injuries is something entirely different, but if I asked, "Will they have more success," then I can see your point.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

f22egl said:


> Courtney Lee is more valuable at this point in his career. Sure Anderson can shoot the 3 at 35%. However,he only shot 39% from the field. Courtney Lee at this point is a more efficient player, since he shoots about 45% from the field and 40% from 3 point range. Lee is also a solid defender; it remains to be seen if Anderson can be as effective on that end of the floor.
> 
> What Anderson does have on Lee is he's almost 3 years younger than Lee. He will also benefit from playing in Orlando's system which will take advantage of his 3 point shooting ability. But right now Lee is more valuable than Anderson.


Courtney played with 3 all stars and one guy who arguably should have made the game. The Magic were one of the more loaded teams in the league last year, the Nets one of the worst. Need I explain any more why Courtney Lee had more to opportunities to put up better numbers than Anderson? 

Lets see how both players do now that situations have switched, and then you tell me if Lee is the more efficient player.


> See to me, if you gain Vince Carter and Ryan Anderson and lose Hedo Turkoglu, Rafer Alston, Courtney Lee, Marcin Gortat and Tony Battie... you either plateaued or you got worse. They will lose five rotation players of their top 9 players from their team. That doesn't seem like the best offseason.


I agree with this. I have seen this story before and it didnt end well. Sorry Blue Magic getting guys like Jeremy Pargo isnt cutting it, thats the definition of a true bum. Jannero would be a much better choice. This situation is similar in some ways to when the Nets got Vince, they trade away their big man depth, and whilst it did improve the team, they never were able to bring in quality bigs to help the team. If the Magic dont bolster their front court and bring in a backup point, I fear they wont go far. The team isn't complete as is.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Cap said:


> And again, your point means nothing, is moot, when reality is that Jameer didn't play and they still got to the Finals. They didn't have him for more than half the season. So assuming he plays all next season, they will be a _better team_ than they were in 08-09, and the title asks will the Magic be better than last year. The answer is undeniably yes unless they replace all their reserves with no one (which isn't possible given the 12 man rule). Saying they "Would have had him anyway" means nothing, it's a useless qualifier. Get it?


I agree, Magic were tied for the #1 record in the league with Jameer leading the team as our PG. People forget, The game he went down was the game that took us out of the #1 spot and we were never really as consistent a team since then. Now all of a sudden, we are gonna be worse off with him as our PG again? Do people forget that Hedo was crap the 1st half of the season and we reached that #1 plateau despite it?? Assuming Meer can play like he was last season and VC provides more consistency than Hedo did, Orlando should certainly be just as good as we were early last year. Depth is a concern, but if we address that depth properly which I expect, then it shouldn't even be much of a question at all whether we got better. People need to realize that it's too early to panick about the rotation right now.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

I like how you just now removed your "Keep Hedo" sig.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

HB said:


> Courtney played with 3 all stars and one guy who arguably should have made the game. The Magic were one of the more loaded teams in the league last year, the Nets one of the worst. Need I explain any more why Courtney Lee had more to opportunities to put up better numbers than Anderson?


Ryan Anderson played with 2 all star caliber players in Devin Harris and Vince Carter. It wasn't just that Lee put up better numbers than Anderson; Anderson's shooting % was horrible. Under 40% isn't ideal, especially for a 6'10 big man. Yes, Anderson can develop into a pretty good player given his youth and abilty to spot up and hurt the 3. But right now Courtney Lee is a proven commodity on a winning team; putting up good stats on a good team doesn't hurt your value. I'll take that over a player who simply puts up numbers on a garbage team. 

I think the big flaw in Orlando right now is that they only have 2 guys who they can put on LeBron (Carter and Pietrus) as opposed to 3 before (Lee, Pietrus, and Turkoglu). I would say Orlando has a better starting 5 than last year, but right now their bench isn't anything to brag about. But the offseason isn't over yet, and Orlando can still improve their depth.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

f22egl said:


> Ryan Anderson played with 2 all star caliber players in Devin Harris and Vince Carter. It wasn't just that Lee put up better numbers than Anderson; Anderson's shooting % was horrible. Under 40% isn't ideal, especially for a 6'10 big man. Yes, Anderson can develop into a pretty good player given his youth and abilty to spot up and hurt the 3. But right now Courtney Lee is a proven commodity on a winning team; putting up good stats on a good team doesn't hurt your value. I'll take that over a player who simply puts up numbers on a garbage team.
> 
> I think the big flaw in Orlando right now is that they only have 2 guys who they can put on LeBron (Carter and Pietrus) as opposed to 3 before (Lee, Pietrus, and Turkoglu). I would say Orlando has a better starting 5 than last year, but right now their bench isn't anything to brag about. But the offseason isn't over yet, and Orlando can still improve their depth.


3 all stars > 2 and quite frankly Hedo should have made the game last year. Also, the Magic have a legit post presence which opens up the perimeter and driving lanes for other players. Brook Lopez was promising but he is nowhere near Dwight as a post presence. As Duck said in the previous page, the Magic's system helps people put up good stats. Dont make Lee out to be what he is not, he's a capable rookie who capitalized on playing with some really good teammates. Again lets see him do that on the Nets. If his stats fall on the Nets, does that mean he's now a 'bad' player?

Also just a little tidbit on Ryan Anderson, he was leading the league in 3pt percentage before he hurt his shoulder. Now I dont need to tell you that if you have a bad shoulder, your shooting will be affected. He lead the Pac-10 in scoring and he didnt simply do that by shooting 3's. The guy can play period.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

I said it a few times before, Ryan Anderson reminds me a lot of Sam Perkins.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

The '93 Heat said:


> Whether they will have more success or not is irrelevant. The question posed was whether they are better. You're comparing an injured roster to a healthy one and saying that they are better because they are healthier. That's tangential.


It's relevant though; for example, the Lakers were the exact same team in 07-08 that they were in 08-09, they didn't improve the roster that summer, but they were clearly a superior team in 08-09. The only reason they were better is because players they had on their roster, Bynum and Ariza, were healthy in 08-09, but not the season before. So tangential or not, it's relevant (to be fair, Shannon Brown was added, Pau got better, Ariza got better, etc., but the point is the same all else equal). 



> For the record, Jameer was on the roster last year, so when I ask, "Are they better," I'm asking about the differences in the two rosters. Just comparing injuries and potential successes related to injuries is something entirely different, but if I asked, "Will they have more success," then I can see your point.


I just figured the whole point of any roster comparison is to talk about success, but OK.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

The '93 Heat said:


> I like how you just now removed your "Keep Hedo" sig.


Yeah, I love Hedo. I used to defend him when people thought he was a joke of a closer and a one-dimensional chucker. I wouldve loved for him not to opt out of his contract and Im gonna miss him. It's just ironic now to see soo many people trying to defend him after hearing soo many yrs of people saying we could never win jack with him as our closer. It's like once Orlando fans accept the fact that Hedo is not the answer, all the outsiders all a sudden have a change of heart about the guys abilities based on two rounds of play... After trying to tell them what he could do all these yrs, now all of a sudden they want to tell us about his game. I know what his game is. But he is not better than VC bro. Dude was inconsistent. 07-08 was really his only great year. This year he would disapear too much. He disapears for entire games and shows up for a couple game-winners and people act like Orlando will burn w/o him. Not quite. We will miss him, but we will still be great w/o him. Vince is the clear cut better talent.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Yeah, I love Hedo. I used to defend him when people thought he was a joke of a closer and claimed he was a one-dimensional chucker. I wouldve loved for him not to opt out of his contract and Im gonna miss him. It's just ironic now to see soo many people trying to defend him after hearing soo many yrs of people saying we could never win jack with him as our closer. It's like once Orlando fans accept the fact that Hedo is not the answer, all the outsiders all a sudden have a change of heart about the guys abilities based on two rounds of play... After trying to tell them what he could do all these yrs, now all of a sudden they want to tell us about his game. I know what his game is. *But he is not better than VC bro.*


I agree. You should read what I wrote in the first post of the thread about that.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

The '93 Heat said:


> I agree. You should read what I wrote in the first post of the thread about that.


Your just fundamentally flawed w/ your approach. It's not VC 4 Hedo, Lee, Gortat, Battie, & Alston. First and foremost, we also got a nice prospect in Anderson which everybody is ignoring. Secondly, as I said earlier there is no gaurantee that Hedo signs with us even if we dont make the VC trade. It was a family move for him. He just had baby girl, and his wife likes the Toronto culture for them. Plus TOR's giving him more money and more years than we were. As soon as he opted out, I think Otis knew he probably wasnt coming back. Alston was a rental all along. Battie is really nothing more than a locker room guy at this point in his career. Gortat is who is gonna hurt losing the most because he is the hardest to replace and he's not even officially gone yet. Your just looking at everything the wrong ways. Jobs not finished yet. Job finished?? I dont think so. Summer's still young and moves are still yet to be made.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> Secondly, I think the Magic overachieved last year. If KG had been healthy, I doubt they'd be in the finals. They'd have been looking to improve regardless. Lakers just got Artest, Spurs RJ, Cleveland Shaq, Boston Sheed, etc etc. Teams with title aspirations are constantly looking for ways to get better, you cant just stand pat and expect things to go your way. Trading for Vince should make them better, but will that be enough to win the title...I am not sure about that. I still think their bench is thin and God forbid Dwight goes down, there's no one to step in for him. Lets see how they tweak their bench going into the season, they have got a shot at the 'ship.


You underrating the Magic all year does not mean they overachieved.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

The Magic still haven't signed a big man to put next to Howard. Howard needs help down low. IMO, he's doing too much by himself in the low post both offensively and defensively. Until that's being addressed, I think they are the same team as last year. Team full of three point bombers lead by a monster in the middle.

Big Baby Davis might become available due to Rasheed acquisition. Davis have developed a solid mid-range J which he showed throughout the playoff. His game complements Dwight's well. But I don't know the situation of his contract though, he's supposed to be a restricted FA. And Boston will probably find a way to prevent him from signing with a rival team.

EDIT:
Spurs seem to try to sign Davis using full-MLE. Magic should be in the run too IMO. McDyess is also available. He doesn't have much a mid-range game. But he's more of an inside presence than Ryan Anderson and Rashard Lewis (naturally a 3)


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## Sleepepro (Oct 24, 2008)

I think the Magic offseason has been a wash so far, they do need another big men to play with howard they have a thin front court right now. Davis might actually be really good with Magic so maybe they'll go after him


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

HB said:


> 3 all stars > 2 and quite frankly Hedo should have made the game last year. Also, the Magic have a legit post presence which opens up the perimeter and driving lanes for other players. Brook Lopez was promising but he is nowhere near Dwight as a post presence. As Duck said in the previous page, the Magic's system helps people put up good stats. Dont make Lee out to be what he is not, he's a capable rookie who capitalized on playing with some really good teammates. Again lets see him do that on the Nets. If his stats fall on the Nets, does that mean he's now a 'bad' player?
> 
> *Also just a little tidbit on Ryan Anderson, he was leading the league in 3pt percentage before he hurt his shoulder.HP 96 Black Inkjet Print Cartridge Now I dont need to tell you that if you have a bad shoulder, your shooting will be affected. He lead the Pac-10 in scoring and he didnt simply do that by shooting 3's. The guy can play period.*


OK, now that makes more sense. That makes Anderson a very solid addition.

As for Lee, he has bigger shoes to fill than Ryan Anderson's. His efficiency will most likely drop but his aggregate numbers should go up. Although, if it's the case that Anderson is a better prospect than Lee, maybe the Nets are purposefully tanking/trying to win the Lebron sweepstakes. Certainly having Orlando beat Cleveland for another season could get the job done.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Your just fundamentally flawed w/ your approach. It's not VC 4 Hedo, Lee, Gortat, Battie, & Alston. First and foremost, we also got a nice prospect in Anderson which everybody is ignoring. Secondly, as I said earlier there is no gaurantee that Hedo signs with us even if we dont make the VC trade. It was a family move for him. He just had baby girl, and his wife likes the Toronto culture for them. Plus TOR's giving him more money and more years than we were. As soon as he opted out, I think Otis knew he probably wasnt coming back. Alston was a rental all along. Battie is really nothing more than a locker room guy at this point in his career. Gortat is who is gonna hurt losing the most because he is the hardest to replace and he's not even officially gone yet. Your just looking at everything the wrong ways. Jobs not finished yet. Job finished?? I dont think so. Summer's still young and moves are still yet to be made.


It's not a question of who was directly traded 4 who. It's what they had prior versus what they have now. And the poll question says "so far" for a reason. And the whole point of this is to judge whether they are better for the fact that they've had a significant roster upheaval and you would expect a team who just came close to a championship to remain a contender but then they don't re-sign Hedo and that, in my opinion, makes them worse. Can you imagine the Lakers not re-signing Odom? That's the equivalent. The Lakers already had Kobe, Pau, Bynum, and some bad contracts and they still went out and used their midlevel and they're still going to re-sign Odom because that's what contenders do. Magic ownership promised that they would spend money to pay the tax to win a championship yet they're worse today than they were before because they didn't spend.

Anyway, why they made the moves they made and didn't make moves is another matter. The fact is they've made a bunch of moves so lets ask ourselves if they are better today than they were before. There was a popular misconception that now they are better. Just look at the Vegas odds. So I wanted to have a good discussion about whether or not they are in fact better.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

The '93 Heat said:


> It's not a question of who was directly traded 4 who. It's what they had prior versus what they have now. And the poll question says "so far" for a reason. And the whole point of this is to judge whether they are better for the fact that they've had a significant roster upheaval and you would expect a team who just came close to a championship to remain a contender but then they don't re-sign Hedo and that, in my opinion, makes them worse. Can you imagine the Lakers not re-signing Odom? That's the equivalent. The Lakers already had Kobe, Pau, Bynum, and some bad contracts and they still went out and used their midlevel and they're still going to re-sign Odom because that's what contenders do. *Magic ownership promised that they would spend money to pay the tax to win a championship yet they're worse today than they were before because they didn't spend.*


Job finished?? I dont think so bro. 

/thread


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Job finished?? I dont think so bro.
> 
> /thread


Read the poll question. This is an evaluation to date.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

> Media: With the financial restraints the team faces right now... (Otis cuts off question)
> 
> Otis Smith: *Honestly I can spend as much as I want, so let's throw that out right now.*


If we want Gortat, we can keep him. Just be patient, bro. Summer aint even half way over yet.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> If we want Gortat, we can keep him. Just be patient, bro. Summer aint even half way over yet.


I've considered Gortat a Magic player in all my opinions up to now. Until he signs with another team. And with that in mind, I still believe they are worse now than they were before. If Gortat leaves then they just become a little worse once again.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Then what are you referring to when you say we wont spend $$$?


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

The '93 Heat said:


> Read the poll question. This is an evaluation to date.


If the answer to the poll question is really what you want, its an obvious yes. But its a ****ing stupid poll question. Obviously a team of 13 guys is going to be better than a team with of its 5 players removed. What kind of question is that?


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Duck34234 said:


> If the answer to the poll question is really what you want, its an obvious yes. But its a ****ing stupid poll question. Obviously a team of 13 guys is going to be better than a team with of its 5 players removed. What kind of question is that?


Ideally you would consider starting 5 and major free agents because at this point this is the roster they will be moving forward with. A midlevel signing and some other randoms is insignificant a reason to dispute the question. The major question is whether the VC Magic are looking better than the Hedo Magic were. It's a pertinent question is what it is. The Eastern Conference champions have undergone a roster shakeup and there's a popular belief that they are better for it. At least that was the belief of everyone at ESPN and all the major sportswriters when the VC trade went down in June.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

The '93 Heat said:


> Ideally you would consider starting 5 and major free agents because at this point this is the roster they will be moving forward with. A midlevel signing and some other randoms is insignificant a reason to dispute the question. The major question is whether the VC Magic are looking better than the Hedo Magic were. It's a pertinent question is what it is. The Eastern Conference champions have undergone a roster shakeup and there's a popular belief that they are better for it. At least that was the belief of everyone at ESPN and all the major sportswriters when the VC trade went down in June.


That was before Hedo opted out tho.... Now, I hear guys like Skip Bayless on ESPN trying to act like Hedo is more valuable and brings more to the table than Vince. It would be ridiculous if someone said that before the playoffs. If any analyst said that before the playoffs, they probably would've been fired. But after that finals run, people finally realized what the team was capable of. You already admit VC is > Hedo. Let's just say we add Matt Barnes and Bass to the team thru the MLE, and we keep Gortat. The Magic will certainly be improved. You cant really compare an 8 man roster to a team that just reached the finals. Of course everyones gonna be high on that finals team vs an incomplete team. I think a poll on espn today asked for the favorites in the east, and Boston and Cleveland both had around like 45% in votes and Orlando had like 10% or something.... Most people, like you, think we are worse off. We'll see what happens tho.


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

The magic definitely got better:

1. Carter attracts double teams and will be the main focus of the opposing team's defense, leaving other guys open looks. 

2. Alston leaving did not hurt the magic because AJ is a legit back up to Jameer. 

3. Lee is becoming overrated. He has potential, but as of next season he still won't be a great player and the Magic are trying to win NOW.

4. The Magic also got Anderson who is a decent young player. 

5. Who's to say Hedo would have stayed with the Magic had the trade not gone down?


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

Hedo is better than vince.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Blue Magic said:


> If we want Gortat, we can keep him. Just be patient, bro. Summer aint even half way over yet.


Of course you can keep Gortat, but that also means no Bass.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

silverpaw1786 said:


> Hedo is better than vince.


At some things he definitely he is, good thing you didn't include the word basketball.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i think this team got a lot weaker. hedo was possibly the best game finisher on this team. time and time again last year he was the one who handled the ball in the clutch, and the one who took the final shots. talent wise vc is a better talent, but hedo is the better fit for the team. unless nelson carries his regular season production into the playoffs(not a guarantee as there are a lot of players who fade when it comes time to shine) this team might struggle to finish games.


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

People forget how Hedo was averaging 11 points per game against 76ers in the first round this year.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

croco said:


> Of course you can keep Gortat, but that also means no Bass.


Possibly. But not if we sign Bass 1st. 



c_dog said:


> i think this team got a lot weaker. hedo was possibly the best game finisher on this team. time and time again last year he was the one who handled the ball in the clutch, and the one who took the final shots. talent wise vc is a better talent, but hedo is the better fit for the team. unless nelson carries his regular season production into the playoffs(not a guarantee as there are a lot of players who fade when it comes time to shine) this team might struggle to finish games.


Nelson has always been a big game player. 07-08 playoffs were actually his coming out party, and he was more clutch than Hedo for the 1st half of the season. Dont worry about Nelson.  

It's quite clear that you, like most everyone else, have never watched Orlando play outside of the final two rounds of this years playoffs. I appreciate the concern, but we will be alright.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Babir said:


> People forget how Hedo was averaging 11 points per game against 76ers in the first round this year.


They only watched the finals.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

c_dog said:


> i think this team got a lot weaker. hedo was possibly the best game finisher on this team. time and time again last year he was the one who handled the ball in the clutch, and the one who took the final shots. talent wise vc is a better talent, but hedo is the better fit for the team. unless nelson carries his regular season production into the playoffs(not a guarantee as there are a lot of players who fade when it comes time to shine) this team might struggle to finish games.


















yeah, poor Magic. They will have nobody in the clutch.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

VC is not better than Hedo "at this point" because Hedo drives to the basket, rebounds and VC no longer does any of that. 

Oh and let's not forget, the one game in the finals Alston got playing time and shots... the Magic Won !

VC is living off of dunks from ten years ago against no one. What has he done in games that matter ?? Hedo hit what would have been a game winning shot if not for LeBron's heroics. When has VC done any of that ?? 

The Raptors were in the playoffs two straight times before last year. And this team is better than those were. Hedo will take Toronto farther than VC ever did !! When VC was in Toronto he admitted to dogging it.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^All I can say is watch games. You have totally mis-characterized VC's game. I suggest you actually update yourself with 2009 Vince, clearly you havent watched him recently.


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## P-Rez25 (Nov 24, 2006)

OMGBaselRocks! said:


> is gortat goign back to orlando? if not then that pretty much cancels every effort made by the magic to get better.


i was just about to say funny how nobody mentions Gortat or Battie, who is gonna back up Dwight? unless that C from Spain Orlando drafted a few years ago comes to the NBA i see lack a lack of front court depth a major issue for the Magic


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

P-Rez25 said:


> i was just about to say funny how nobody mentions Gortat or Battie, who is gonna back up Dwight? unless that C from Spain Orlando drafted a few years ago comes to the NBA i see lack a lack of front court depth a major issue for the Magic


I just entered this thread to ask about the Magic bench. 

With Lee and Turk gone, Pietrus will likely take the SF slot, so now their bench consists of JJ Redick and Anthony "Dr. Robotnik" Johnson.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jobs not finished. It's too early to judge the Magic right now, I cant stress this enough. What we do know is that Orlando will have 4 former all-stars in the starting line-up next year. As far as depth, all I can say is, the jobs not finished. We still have a minimum of 5 spots left to fill. I dont understand why you guys cant just wait a little bit before you judge what the team will or will not be capable of....


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

for the people underrating VC... i guess you haven't seen him play. he had some crazy explosive spurts last year, but he also had some pretty bad slumps (not as bad as hedo though). so many people here are so wishy washy, what-have-you-done-for-me-lately. VC is a more clutch player than hedo, it just doesn't seem like it because people seem to judge players on what they have done recently, and not what they have done through their whole careers.

and hello, when you say "what has vince done lately" ... well, you know what? he played on a ****ty nets team, what do you expect? i guarantee you that if he and hedo traded spots the last 3-4 seasons, hedo would look worse than vince.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> Jobs not finished. It's too early to judge the Magic right now, I cant stress this enough. What we do know is that Orlando will have 4 former all-stars in the starting line-up next year. As far as depth, all I can say is, the jobs not finished. We still have a minimum of 5 spots left to fill. I dont understand why you guys cant just wait a little bit before you judge what the team will or will not be capable of....


It's not like a whole bunch of cheap quality players are out there available like freaks at Daytona BCR. And the Magic don't have any capspace to make any huge splash in the free agency dept. Extra kick in the *** cause they don't have any trade pieces either.

Some scrubs are gonna have to be on the come up next season.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

They still have their MLE and LLE if I am correct.


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## goodfoot (Feb 28, 2009)

Yeah, they can use the mid-level to get Bass, Davis, or David Lee and resign Gortat.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> It's not like a whole bunch of cheap quality players are out there available like freaks at Daytona BCR. And the Magic don't have any capspace to make any huge splash in the free agency dept. Extra kick in the *** cause they don't have any trade pieces either.
> 
> Some scrubs are gonna have to be on the come up next season.


There are more players than there is money. A couple of quality players may slip to the second best team in the world?


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Blue Magic said:


> Nelson has always been a big game player. 07-08 playoffs were actually his coming out party, and he was more clutch than Hedo for the 1st half of the season. Dont worry about Nelson.
> 
> It's quite clear that you, like most everyone else, have never watched Orlando play outside of the final two rounds of this years playoffs. I appreciate the concern, but we will be alright.


I get that you like nelson. I'm still not that high on the guy. He was enjoying a good regular season but the playoffs is a whole different beast. I've not seen nelson make good decisions in a playoff game, but i know he can score. And i really think it was selfish of him to come back in the finals and disrupt what the magic had going for them. He was a major factor in why the magic lost in the playoffs. his lack of production, disruption of the team's momentum heading into the finals, and making things uncomfortable for alston, really hurt the magic. the guy has never shown to be anything but selfish.

and vc is not a clutch player. he's made some 3's at the end of games in regular season but he's not clutch, not like hedo. being able to shoot clutch shots is only one of the things hedo does at the end of games. i made it a point in my previous post that hedo was often the primary ball handler in the clutch.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

c_dog said:


> I get that you like nelson. I'm still not that high on the guy. He was enjoying a good regular season but the playoffs is a whole different beast. I've not seen nelson make good decisions in a playoff game, but i know he can score. And i really think it was selfish of him to come back in the finals and disrupt what the magic had going for them. He was a major factor in why the magic lost in the playoffs. his lack of production, disruption of the team's momentum heading into the finals, and making things uncomfortable for alston, really hurt the magic. the guy has never shown to be anything but selfish.
> *
> and vc is not a clutch player. he's made some 3's at the end of games in regular season but he's not clutch, not like hedo. being able to shoot clutch shots is only one of the things hedo does at the end of games. i made it a point in my previous post that hedo was often the primary ball handler in the clutch*.


Thankfully you are in the minority on this, because VC happens to always be in the top 10 for clutch stats in the league. Yes you are right, clutch doesnt only mean taking a buzzer beater, so ask yourself, who has been the go to guy on the Raptors and Nets teams that VC has been on? I have seen the guy take over 4th quarters numerous times. To say he is not clutch is simply false. Makes me wonder if you are a Raptors fan....which I am guessing you are. Hedo does NOT do anything better than Vince, thats a fact. Rebound? Nah Passing? Nah Defense? Nah. So what are those things you are talking about?


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

c_dog said:


> I get that you like nelson. I'm still not that high on the guy. He was enjoying a good regular season but the playoffs is a whole different beast. I've not seen nelson make good decisions in a playoff game, but i know he can score. And i really think it was selfish of him to come back in the finals and disrupt what the magic had going for them. He was a major factor in why the magic lost in the playoffs. his lack of production, disruption of the team's momentum heading into the finals, and making things uncomfortable for alston, really hurt the magic. the guy has never shown to be anything but selfish.
> 
> and vc is not a clutch player. he's made some 3's at the end of games in regular season but he's not clutch, not like hedo. being able to shoot clutch shots is only one of the things hedo does at the end of games. i made it a point in my previous post that hedo was often the primary ball handler in the clutch.


:wtf:

You know very little about what your talking about.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

The Magic did "get better" but they are still behind a healthy Celtics in the East.:razz:

But hey, at least their window isn't only 11 months or so like the C's


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

stevemc said:


> The Magic did "get better" but they are still behind a healthy Celtics in the East.:razz:
> 
> But hey, at least their window isn't only 11 months or so like the C's


Well all I can say is, Orlando is the team to beat in the east until proven other wise. We earned that much respect, but still nobody wants to give it. The Cavs are good against everybody except the Magic and the Celtic's should be playing in the senior's league. Both those teams made some nice little moves, but VC and Dwight is going to be a deadly combination, alongside the other two other all-stars in Lewis and Nelson. Now if we can get Bass and another backup wingman, we're set. Some people are coming to the same conclusions on Orlando as if this is still 2007.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Well all I can say is, Orlando is the team to beat in the east until proven other wise. We earned that much respect, but still nobody wants to give it. The Cavs are good against everybody except the Magic and the Celtic's should be playing in the senior's league. Both those teams made some nice little moves, but VC and Dwight is going to be a deadly combination, alongside the other two other all-stars in Lewis and Nelson. Now if we can get Bass and another backup wingman, we're set. Some people are coming to the same conclusions on Orlando as if this is still 2007.


Odds
Vegas even has you behind the Celtics buddy. Sorry.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Sick 08-09 VC mixes: 



MaxaMillion711 said:


> My yearly season mix recapping the final season of VC's net career. I hope you all enjoy it! Make sure to watch all 3 parts if you watch on youtube
> 
> Hopefully this will give magic fans an idea of who they are getting in Vince Carter. He has flown under the radar for a couple years now but trust me, hes been balling and those who watch him on a nightly basis know that. Hearing people like Skip Bayless and Michael Wilbon on ESPN trash the magic for making this move to get "wince" carter...ill admit...it does get my blood boiling...but VC has made a living proving haters wrong so I guess it should come as no surprise. Anyways enjoy the video
> 
> ...


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Maxamillion the great. I wonder why NBATV still hasn't hired you for a job.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

If the Magic can sign Matt Barnes and get a serviceable backup C, then they may indeed have gotten better.

The question right now is: will they start Bass at PF and have Pietrus come off the bench or start Lewis at PF and have Bass come off the bench?


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

I'd match for Gortat(is it too late!?) if I were the Magic. Getting Matt Barnes is a huge plus(makes up for Lee) and I could see them being favorites in the East.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> I'd match for Gortat(is it too late!?) if I were the Magic. Getting Matt Barnes is a huge plus(makes up for Lee) and I could see them being favorites in the East.


Link

Look at the winners part. The article is spot on though, Pritchard messed up.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

They just added Bass, are about the sign Barnes and fwiw, WKMG in Orlando just said they were matching the deal for Gortat. So lets recap. They lose Hedo (replaced with Carter who is a better player), Lee (Pietrus will take his role since Lee would be coming off the bench with Carter in Orlando), Battie (replaced with a better, younger player in Anderson), and Alston (Nelson will replace him in the starting lineup). Magic added Bass and most likely Barnes. Baring injury, next seasons Magic team has a better starting lineup and has more depth than last years team.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Is there a link that the Magic matched the Mavs offer?


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Matt Barnes and Bass? Damn, that is solid!

Now if they match Gortat's offer, they will be 1b to the celts IMO. They are deeper but it is hard to have a better starting line up than the Celts/Lakers these days...


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

If the Magic can manage to match Gortat and sign Barnes, I would put them at the top of the East. 

I thought they were worse after the VC trade but that was with the assumption Gortat was leaving. Barnes fills in their guard depth.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

I really don't see how anybody can say the Magic aren't better than they were last year.

They get a healthy Nelson back, add a player of Vince Carters caliber, add a young big that can score, sign a guy like Bass to help bang the boards with Howard, and possibly sign a guy like Matt Barnes? If they keep Gortat I think this team has improved already by leaps and bounds.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I dont think they match Gortat, it looks like Ratliff will be coming over.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

HB said:


> I dont think they match Gortat, it looks like Ratliff will be coming over.


I guess it's still possible. Magic still have two days before anything is official, but rumors are that Otis made his decision days ago... Some assume that means he wont match, and some think he will. The channel 6 news said an announcement would be made today and Bass' press conference I think is supposed to be today so maybe we'll hear something official then... For all we know, Otis could be ****ing with the local media again like he's known to do, but re-signing Gortat seems to make pretty good business sense for us. Id imagine there will be loads of pissed off Mavs fans tho, if we do in fact match.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Blue Magic said:


> I guess it's still possible. Magic still have two days before anything is official, but rumors are that Otis made his decision days ago... Some assume that means he wont match, and some think he will. The channel 6 news said an announcement would be made today and Bass' press conference I think is supposed to be today so maybe we'll hear something official then... For all we know, Otis could be ****ing with the local media again like he's known to do, but re-signing Gortat seems to make pretty good business sense for us. Id imagine there will be loads of pissed off Mavs fans tho, if we do in fact match.


Gortat probably too because he has a chance to play 25-30 minutes a night in Dallas whereas he might not see the floor half as much in Orlando, while still getting paid the same. I guess we will have to wait until the deadline, there are tons of rumors both ways.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

My bad Blue, just saw that they are in fact planning on matching the deal. Ouch! Gortat and Cuban wont like it. Expect Gortat to end up in Houston.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

If Otis is indeed doing that, he is a ****ing *******. Waiting that long. Mavs could of signed somebody else in the meantime.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

croco said:


> Gortat probably too because he has a chance to play 25-30 minutes a night in Dallas whereas he might not see the floor half as much in Orlando, while still getting paid the same. I guess we will have to wait until the deadline, there are tons of rumors both ways.


He already said he was disappointed and I can't blame him. I like Gortat a lot as a player, but I've never been a proponent of keeping someone who doesn't want to be there. Dwight/Lewis/Bass/Gortat/Anderson is a really, really deep and good front court.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

It has been confirmed that the Magic have matched for Gortat. Now all they need to do is get Lewis a backup (Barnes) and add another veteran big (Ratliff) and they will be done.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Can't he hold out or something? Pull a bigger ***** move back?


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

stevemc said:


> Can't he hold out or something? Pull a bigger ***** move back?


Hold out? Why would Gortat not want to be paid 5+ million more next season than he got the season before? Gortat is happy in either place and has said so in the past. His only regret would be the fact he won't start for the Magic. He won't be on the Magic long regardless. I'd say he will be traded off by next summer, mainly because the Magic have two Euro centers coming to the team in Fran and Rakovic, who will cost the Magic a fraction of Gortat's contract so he is a year rental at best.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Idunkonyou said:


> Hold out? Why would Gortat not want to be paid 5+ million more next season than he got the season before? Gortat is happy in either place and has said so in the past. His only regret would be the fact he won't start for the Magic. He won't be on the Magic long regardless. I'd say he will be traded off by next summer, mainly because the Magic have two Euro centers coming to the team in Fran and Rakovic, who will cost the Magic a fraction of Gortat's contract so he is a year rental at best.


The hold out would be for the starting job not over money. I was just wondering if he could actually do it more than if he wanted to or not.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

stevemc said:


> The hold out would be for the starting job not over money. I was just wondering if he could actually do it more than if he wanted to or not.


I understand why Gortat should be a little disapointed, but he cant be too mad when he just got a significant raise. Otis Smith will definitely take care of him tho. He will definitely be given a chance to earn some PT at the 4 and 5 and if he can add a reliable 15fter, he may even be able to snag the starting 4 gig. If it doesn't work out here, I dont see why we wouldn't trade him for something at least by next season... If he didn't sign the offer sheet so quick, we couldve possibly traded him this summer, but business is business tho. It makes all the sense in the world for the Magic to keep Gortat right now.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

The Magic are easily a better team.

Carter is a *significantly* better player than Turkoglu. He does all of the things Hedo did, but better. Otis has done wonders with this team. They didn't have to shell out the big bucks for Hedo and they replaced him with a better player who has less years on his contract.

Nelson/Johnson
Carter/Redick
Lewis/Pietrus
Bass/Anderson
Howard/Gortat

It will be interesting to see whether it's Pietrus or Bass that starts, but either way, that's a better team. They still need a better backup 2 though.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Gortat is one of, if not the, best backup center in the league. That's a pretty invaluable thing to have on the same team as Dwight Howard.

Keeping Gortat is smart for two reasons. He gives you a MUCH better chance to win now (which the Magic are trying to do), and he also gives you a valuable trade piece for the future. I believe Gortat could be a starter on some teams, and I'm sure so do those teams GM's. He is going to help give them what they want now, and later.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

GrandKenyon6 said:


> It will be interesting to see whether it's Pietrus or Bass that starts, but either way, that's a better team. They still need a better backup 2 though.


It may just be my blind faith in JJ, but I really think he can be a contributing member on a championship contender. I really think there's a reason why the Magic held on to him for all this time, despite not giving him many minutes. 

Next year might just be a big year for JJ, I'm curious what Blue thinks about this situation.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

MLE for 12 minutes a game?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^Trade bait, and Redick wont be the backup 2 guard for long.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

At first glance it seems a lot like the Rashard Lewis signing. I'll admit Gortat is a great fit, but I don't know if I'm ready to admit he is worth going deep into the luxury tax for. But I remember what it was like when Adonal Foyle subbed in for Dwight, it was 3 minute spurts of pure dominance by opposing teams. And at the highest levels of competition, every minute counts.

A starting Center in the NBA is worth $5.8 Milllion next year. At the very least, Otis is acquiring assets.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

If the Magic sign Barnes, Redick will most likely get traded for a PG. With Barnes on the roster, the Magic would have 3 guys who can play SG or SF in Carter, Pietrus and Barnes so Redick would be expendable.

Gortat isn't starting for us either. He was brought back to be the backup for Howard. He is an insurance policy in case Howard gets hurt and he will net the Magic something when he is traded next summer.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

GregOden said:


> It may just be my blind faith in JJ, but I really think he can be a contributing member of a championship contender. I really think there's a reason why the Magic held on to him for all this time, despite not giving him many minutes.
> 
> Next year might just be a big year for JJ, I'm curious what Blue thinks about this situation.


I think JJ could have a solid year offensively. My only concern is defensively, Pietrus is the only good wing defender we have. A guy like Barnes or Daniels would be nice really just for that reason, but your right, I dont see why JJ couldn't fill the backup 2 spot this season... He's proven enough to be a reliable rotation player.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Lets recap again:

Nelson > Alston. Bass > Lee. Carter > Hedo. Anderson > Battie. Gortat = Gortat. Magic also added a 8+ million TPE. Across the board the Magic improved and that is if Otis does nothing for the rest of the offseason. Read and weep NBA.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Duck34234 said:


> At first glance it seems a lot like the Rashard Lewis signing. I'll admit Gortat is a great fit, but I don't know if I'm ready to admit he is worth going deep into the luxury tax for. But I remember what it was like when Adonal Foyle subbed in for Dwight, it was 3 minute spurts of pure dominance by opposing teams. And at the highest levels of competition, every minute counts.
> 
> A starting Center in the NBA is worth $5.8 Milllion next year. At the very least, Otis is acquiring assets.


Lol, Foyle cost us soo many games it was a joke.... Layups were a challenge for that guy.. :laugh:

It's hard to be mad at Otis for dropping MLE money on Gortat tho when Boston just paid MLE for a quality backup(SHeed) and Cleveland just gave Varejao $8mil/per... Big men are at a premium right now. Good asset to have. Gortat will get his chance tho.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

The Magic should be in luxury tax hell right now. How can they afford all these guys?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Great job matching for Gortat. Magic continue to make the right choices in the off season. I'm very impressed with the Magic this off season. IMO if both teams stay healthy next season, Boston and Orlando will end up one and two at the end of the regular season. 

Congrats to Magic fans your team has had a great off season! And sounds like there is more plans in the making, Barnes would be another nice fit in Orlando.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

HB said:


> The Magic should be in luxury tax hell right now. How can they afford all these guys?


With the Magic making it to the Finals last season, I don't have the numbers, but I'm sure that generated a lot of extra revenue. (For example me a guy in Portland Oregon, bought a Dwight Howard jersey). Plus with all these key signings and money being spent, it seems the Magic brass believe their team will go far again, and maybe even win the Finals. Which would generate a lot of money. So in this situation spending money could make you more in the long run. 

I'm sure Cuban is fired up about Gortat being matched. Good for the Magic though, and Orlando fans, the Magic fans have to be extremely excited with this off season so far.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

HB said:


> The Magic should be in luxury tax hell right now. How can they afford all these guys?


They have around a 78 million dollar payroll after the Gortat matching. It really isn't that bad. It will probably be right at 80 once they sign a couple more players. That is pretty much where Otis said it would be going into this offseason once they were done with all their signings.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Dee-Zy said:


> If Otis is indeed doing that, he is a ****ing *******. Waiting that long. Mavs could of signed somebody else in the meantime.


It's typical operating procedure for a franchise to wait the entire 7 days to come to a decision to match a player or let them go. I remember the Wizards using all 7 days to decide whether or not they wanted to match Etan Thomas and Jared Jeffries. I would say it worked out in Orlando's favor since the Mavericks probably would have matched Brandon Bass's offer had they known that they weren't going to get Gortat.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Yes especially with the recent additions of Bass and possibly more. Boston and Orlando are clearly the class of the East now.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

f22egl said:


> It's typical operating procedure for a franchise to wait the entire 7 days to come to a decision to match a player or let them go. I remember the Wizards using all 7 days to decide whether or not they wanted to match Etan Thomas and Jared Jeffries. I would say it worked out in Orlando's favor since the Mavericks probably would have matched Brandon Bass's offer had they known that they weren't going to get Gortat.


Bingo. Business is a dirty world.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

HB said:


> The Magic should be in luxury tax hell right now. How can they afford all these guys?


I don't know, but as a whole, their moves reek of panic.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^Lol they'll be panicking into the finals


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

HB said:


> ^Lol they'll be panicking into the finals


Well duhh, TEY HAF VEECEE!!!!!11!!!!!1!!


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Hey its not as good as adding the great Rasheed Wallace to bolster the Celts youth, but it should help.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

They add Bass and retain Gortat. Replace Hedo with VC. If they add Barnes then that would be a suitable replacement for Lee. Backup PG is their only concern.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Did Hedo need replacing? At the expense of one of their most promising players? I don't think so. Lewis is the guy they need to try and get rid of, but of course his contract makes him a biohazard among other GMs.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

It really is hard to say a Finals team is better after they replaced three of their productive starters that got them there in the first place (yes I consider Rafer a starter since he was Orlando's main PG in the regular season and postseason). Especially considering that a KG-less Boston team is still pretty competitive in the East.

Orlando has made sidegrades and haven't made moves on the same level of impact as the other contending teams imo. Picking up Carter was a great move though since Hedo was forsaken. I still see Orlando in the same position they were last year; the underdogs who still have to prove they belong with the healthy Boston, LA, and the retooled Spurs.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Bingo. Business is a dirty world.


I think Bass took less money to come here anyway.... Dallas matching our offer really doenst have any bearing on what Bass would have done, as he said Dallas would have had to pay him more than others to keep him. There were also reports that he had a $25 mil offer on the table, yet he accepted the $18 mil offer from Orlando... Thats a $7 mil difference so you cant be mad at Orlando for Dallas not making Bass a priority, and for Bass wanting to come here. And Gortat was our property, unlike Bass who was a RFA. Dallas should be happy that we even helped them get Marion out of this whole mess.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Apparently Dallas wasn't duped... They just didnt want Bass as much as some would like to believe. 

http://mavsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/07/brandon-bass-on-mavericks-theyre-in-a-to.html



> Former Dallas forward Brandon Bass, speaking today at his youth camp in Fort Worth, said he thought the Mavericks should have brought him back, but is excited about moving on to the Orlando Magic.
> 
> The Mavs stepped out of the way for Orlando to sign Bass to a four-year deal that starts at $4 million next season. But that was when Dallas still had hopes of getting restricted free agent Marcin Gortat. That fell through yesterday when the Magic matched Dallas' offer.
> 
> ...


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

I don't think we were willing to pay him until we landed Gortat. Oh but we'll pay the **** out of Kidd... :whatever:


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## Stan Van Gundy (Jul 15, 2009)

Of course they did.


Although Vince Carter is 32 going on 33, he still makes up for two of Hedo Turkoglu's biggest lacks which are consistancy and effeciency. All this while being a better scorer, and not giving up much (if anything) in the playmaking and passing department.

Yes it hurts to lose a young stud in Courtney Lee, but luckily the Magic had some depth at the SG/SF position while adding some much needed frontcourt depth with Ryan Anderson and Brandon Bass.

I'm neutral on them matching on Gortat, but it would've hurt a bit to lose him as a viable option at C off the bench.


Overall the Magic's offseason was a definate success.



Get back on D!! _OH MY GODDDD_


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

stevemc said:


> I don't think we were willing to pay him until we landed Gortat. Oh but we'll pay the **** out of Kidd... :whatever:


Lol. 

On the bright side, Roddy Beaubois looks like he may be a steal for you guys.... I think you guys should go after Mensah Bonsu to replace Bass.


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## Stan Van Gundy (Jul 15, 2009)

The Magic now have some much needed flexability and versatility and now can still cause matchup problems with teams like Cleveland by starting Lewis at the 4, while going more conventional with Bass or Gortat at the 4 against teams with bigger and more dominating frontcourts.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Coaches shouldnt be on messageboards.


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## Stan Van Gundy (Jul 15, 2009)

Well since I say the PC things I need to when it comes to the media, I need somewhere that I can really voice my opinion as a head coach!


Get back on D! _OH MY GODDDD_


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Dont know who the author is, but this is a good read about the positioning the Magic have done this off-season. I know it wont change anybody's minds or opinions, but maybe it will shine some light on all the haters/doubters out there who are left scratching their heads at Orlando's moves. There is a reason.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/messages/thread/16044515


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Dont know who the author is, but this is a good read about the positioning the Magic have done this off-season. I know it wont change anybody's minds or opinions, but maybe it will shine some light on all the haters/doubters out there who are left scratching their heads at Orlando's moves. There is a reason.
> 
> http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/messages/thread/16044515


Whatever, Celtics, Cavs, Heat, Hawks Sixers and Raptors are still better :razz:


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

That article provides very little info that I didn't already know, tons of hyperbole, and the word 'hater' in reference to the non-believers, which by itself is enough to discredit it. I hope that guy shows up and posts here so I can tear him apart.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Lol, Jacob. You are a prime example of the 'hater'. You are flipping out that Orlando is going into the luxury and calling our moves a sign of 'panic'. Panic caused by what? Who are we afraid of?? This the 1st year in franchise history that we will ever pay the luxury. We are leading the league in season ticket sales for next season and have a state-of-the-art arena being built for the 2010 season which will generate even more revenue. The all-star game will be here in 2012 and our owner is one the top 5 or 6 richest in the league. I know you want to see Orlando crumble, but that's just not reality. Im not saying that every move is perfect, but damn you dont even like to give them a chance.

All im saying is, there is a reason for the moves being made. The GM has a successful track record and there is no reason for panic behind anything we dokrazy. The Magic have alot of flexibility with the roster right now, and we are more versatile than we were last year. We have a core place in place and alot of moveable parts around them that we can use to get better. People want the Magic to be worse, which is why this thread was made soo early(before other inevitable moves were made).


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Its a pretty good article, especially the Hedo part.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

decent read. except the part where he says that otis drafted Howard (Weisbrod) and Otis signed Hedo for 5 years from Sacramento (San Antonio).

the mid season trade is really what its all about. If there's a team looking to give away a marquee player midseason ( a la Gasol in 07/08), look for the Magic to be at the top of the hit list. Even if its a half year rental type deal.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

I guess some truly believe Hedo > Carter, LOL! The only thing the Magic have done this offseason is get better. Who gives a crap if they went into the luxury tax zone? Oh and they aren't done yet.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> That article provides very little info that I didn't already know, tons of hyperbole, and the word 'hater' in reference to the non-believers, which by itself is enough to discredit it. I hope that guy shows up and posts here so I can tear him apart.


Why don't you just move to the CBS sports forum? I'm sure all the posters there would appreciate your valuable insight.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Lol, Jacob. You are a prime example of the 'hater'. You are flipping out that Orlando is going into the luxury and calling our moves a sign of 'panic'. Panic caused by what? Who are we afraid of?? This the 1st year in franchise history that we will ever pay the luxury. We are leading the league in season ticket sales for next season and have a state-of-the-art arena being built for the 2010 season which will generate even more revenue. The all-star game will be here in 2012 and our owner is one the top 5 or 6 richest in the league. I know you want to see Orlando crumble, but that's just not reality. Im not saying that every move is perfect, but damn you dont even like to give them a chance.


Once they landed the best big man on the post prime Shaq era it was pretty much on from there. While so many teams are rebuilding and making terrible moves to let the top teams stay in power for over the past decade, Orlando is getting after it every way possible. Fighting up stream if you will. What's going to be a shame is if they don't everything in their power possible keep Howard who pretty much spearheaded this return to the top tier of the NBA.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Towards the end of that article, it mentions how Otis would try to move Gortat, Bass/RA for an all star PF, me thinks if they can bring home another Florida native who happens to be an all star, its pretty much game over for the league.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Duck34234 said:


> decent read. except the part where he says that otis drafted Howard (Weisbrod) and Otis signed Hedo for 5 years from Sacramento (San Antonio).
> 
> the mid season trade is really what its all about. If there's a team looking to give away a marquee player midseason ( a la Gasol in 07/08), look for the Magic to be at the top of the hit list. Even if its a half year rental type deal.


The possibilities are endless. We can do soo many different things, and have the flexibility to make moves if certain pieces dont work. The TPE can really help us alot whenever we chose to use it. If a guy like Anderson isnt getting any play, we can package him & Gortat to somewhere like a rebuilding Houston team for maybe something like Scola or Battier + Lowry, or whatever. Im mean I dont know how realistic that is, but what the point is is the flexibility. The TPE can allow us see where we are in the season and adjust accordingly. We can subtract the superfluous parts and add other elements of need. Or, we can just let the team continue to develop and compete. Vince is the only key guy on the team over 30 right now...


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Yeah Magic may make a few more moves in getting players, and such. However if not, the team they presently have is immensely talented. Dwight Howard is a young star on the rise, who will only get better next season! And Gasp! He's younger than LeBron James!

Vince is going to be Vince IMO, which is one of the best wings in the game. He's going to make sensational plays, hit clutch game winning shots, and be able to create offense when nothing is there. Vince will give an efficient 20/5/5, and dunk on a few people to boot.

Everyone else falls in place IMO with Pietrus/Rashard/Johnson/Gortat.

I'm really interested in seeing if Jameer get's back to all star level again, and how Anderson being on the floor stretches out the court as a Power Forward with his long range shooting. 

Magic are a dynamic team, only getting better.

Video is of Ryan Anderson Mix.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Video is of Ryan Anderson Mix.


Thanks for the link.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Blue Magic said:


> Lol, Jacob. You are a prime example of the 'hater'.


Anyone who uses the term 'hater' in reference to another fan is a fool. Its the ultimate 5th-grade copout and a cheap way to try and discredit someone who makes completely valid points when you have no way to refute them.

Sound familiar?



> You are flipping out that Orlando is going into the luxury and calling our moves a sign of 'panic'. Panic caused by what? Who are we afraid of??


I don't know. Who are you afraid of? Otis Smith was obviously insecure enough about team's chances for this year to oust 4 of his top 7 players from last year to bring back Lord Vincey, Bass, and Anderson. He couldn't have just kept Turkoglu, who fits that team better than Carter? Its not all about assembling the best players, they actually have to have cohesiveness and fit inside a system. I don't expect you to understand this though, considering that all you do is look at the overall ratings for said players on NBA 2k9 to formulate your ideas.



> This the 1st year in franchise history that we will ever pay the luxury. We are leading the league in season ticket sales for next season and have a state-of-the-art arena being built for the 2010 season which will generate even more revenue. The all-star game will be here in 2012 and our owner is one the top 5 or 6 richest in the league.


Okay.



> I know you want to see Orlando crumble, but that's just not reality. Im not saying that every move is perfect, but damn you dont even like to give them a chance.


I don't want to see Orlando crumble. I'm a general NBA fan after being a Celtics/Kings fan. What you perceive as haterism is just my interpretations of their roster and transactions. Making you a bad homer, since you can't deal with people not bowing in front of Vince Carter's statue without spewing 'hater' all over an otherwise decent board.



> All im saying is, there is a reason for the moves being made. The GM has a successful track record and there is no reason for panic behind anything we dokrazy. The Magic have alot of flexibility with the roster right now, and we are more versatile than we were last year. We have a core place in place and alot of moveable parts around them that we can use to get better. People want the Magic to be worse, which is why this thread was made soo early(before other inevitable moves were made).


Ah yes, the 'us against the world' mentality.


Are you and Jizzy the same person?


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Duck34234 said:


> Why don't you just move to the CBS sports forum? I'm sure all the posters there would appreciate your valuable insight.


Why don't you? My posts contain actual thought and are useful to the discussion and the board. Yours aren't, to say the least.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Idunkonyou said:


> I guess some truly believe Hedo > Carter, LOL! The only thing the Magic have done this offseason is get better. Who gives a crap if they went into the luxury tax zone? Oh and they aren't done yet.


No one here belives that Hedo is a better player than Carter. Pay attention.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Why don't you? My posts contain actual thought and are useful to the discussion and the board. Yours aren't, to say the least.


Have you ever tried discussing a basketball game with a television? 

It doesn't get you very far, but something tells me you do it anyway.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Duck34234 said:


> Have you ever tried discussing a basketball game with a television?
> 
> It doesn't get you very far, but something tells me you do it anyway.


Wow.



I am at a loss for words at the **** you constantly bang out with your keyboard.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I did chuckle at the part about its not about putting together the best players/NBA 2k9 roster. How is Vince going to disrupt what the Magic have going for them? I also laughed at the Otis Smith insecurity part, obviously that's why he's an NBA Gm and we post on here. He took on a shorter contract, got back the better player and has positioned his team in such a way that they can get back another all star big and yet he supposedly is insecure for doing so. LOL


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

HB said:


> I did chuckle at the part about its not about putting together the best players/NBA 2k9 roster.


You think it is about assembling the highest rated players in 2k9? Oh god this is sig-worthy.



> How is Vince going to disrupt what the Magic have going for them?


By position, he's replacing Courtney Lee. He's a better scorer than Lee, obviously, but Lee is the superior defender.

He will also dominate the ball far more often than is good for that offense. There will be way too many Vince Carter isolation shows. Hedo, the guy he replaces philosophically, was the perfect fit for what they did... an unselfish playmaker, a willing secondary player, a very reliable outside shooter. Vince fits none of those. And there isn't a personality on that team to take a stand against it.

No he won't Jacob, Vince has changed! He was never a ball dominator, he happily deferred to other players when necessary! Vince isn't the reason he's never been on a relevant team, everyone else is! NeTS!! NeTS!! NeTS!! I <3 u VEECEE!!!11!!1



> I also laughed at the Otis Smith insecurity part, obviously that's why he's an NBA Gm and we post on here. He took on a shorter contract, got back the better player and has positioned his team in such a way that they can get back another all star big and yet he supposedly is insecure for doing so. LOL


Magic top 8, last June
Jameer Nelson
Courtney Lee
Hedo Turkoglu
Rashard Lewis
Dwight Howard
Mickael Pietrus
Rafer Alston
Marcin Gortat

Magic top 7, now
Jameer Nelson
Vince Carter
Rashard Lewis
Brandon Bass
Dwight Howard
Mickael Pietrus
Ryan Anderson
Marcin Gortat

In other words, noticable turnover for a team coming off a finals berth. You call it shrewd, I call it a sign that Smith didn't think they were good enough to do it again this season, and went out to try and convince himself otherwise.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

A.) I didnt want to quote your whole post, so thats why I shortened it to the NBA 2k9 statement. You've made the statement numerous times so you should know what I am getting at.

B.) Hedo's skills mirror what Shard does, Vince gives them a whole new dimension. If you watched the Magic, you'd know Hedo couldnt create a shot without the aid of a pick and roll. He's not that great of a slasher either. Vince does both better than him. Quell that talk about Vince dominating the ball, he's one of the most unselfish stars in the game. Again, RJ and Harris had career years playing next to him. Lol, you just said a 4.3apg, 39% 3pt career shooter does not fit the mold of a reliable outside shooter and play maker :laugh: okie dokie. I see your little small fonts italics thing, I wish I were smart enough to make some childish response like that, but my brain isnt functioning that way right now.

As for the top 7, top 8 part. Again, Otis committed to the better player with a shorter contract. Alston and Meer on the same team is redundant. They dont have minutes for both. Anderson is just as good as Lee if not better. The season is far from over, so who knows who else the Magic will add, what they have is a valuable TPE and some nice trade assets. Otis is a miracle worker.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Magic top 8, last June
> Jameer Nelson
> Courtney Lee
> Hedo Turkoglu
> ...


What the hell, come on man, Rafer was filler, he was brought in to the Magic half way into the season because Jameer got injured, if Nelson was never injured Rafer would of never been on the Magic. Who cares Rafer is gone.

Hedo Turkoglu, who was very important to the Magic, but left on his own terms. Hedo wanted a lot of money, and he got it, I can't blame the guy, I would take the money over playing for an elite team. Hedo made his run last year with the Magic and seems content to make it to the Finals. Live with it.

Courtney Lee, Battie, and Alston for Carter and Andersen deal - Lee is a solid great up and coming player, but even than he was a bench player for the Magic initially ( started once Pietrus was injured), who was part of a package deal to be traded for a proven veteran. I like the up side on Lee, but I like the game Carter will bring much more. Carters defense is also vastly underrated by most. The Magic also got back Ryan Anderson another unheralded rookie who I believe was picked right ahead of Lee in the NBA draft. Anderson is going to be a perfect fit for the Magic, he can shoot the 3, as a rookie Anderson shot the 3 ball at a 37% clip, he plays defense, and can put the ball on the floor and create.

Who cares if Otis Smith didn't think the Magic were good enough, especially if you know your going to lose an important player to your team, go out and try to do something about it, and utilize your Owners Rich pockets, and prey on the teams in the league that are trying to cut cap space.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-Orlando-Magic-are-stacked?urn=nba,177027

This is from a guy who is considered one of the best bball writers out there and from his descriptions of Vince, he is no fan, but still the general consensus out there is that the Magic had a really good offseason, only 'haters' as Blue Magic calls them, try to paint it otherwise.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

HB said:


> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-Orlando-Magic-are-stacked?urn=nba,177027
> 
> This is from a guy who is considered one of the best bball writers out there and from his descriptions of Vince, he is no fan, but still the general consensus out there is that the Magic had a really good offseason, only 'haters' as Blue Magic calls them, try to paint it otherwise.


Nice find, I completely agree with the writer. 

The Magic are much better!


----------



## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Once again, the Magic updated their roster across the board. For comparison's sake and what the player brought to the team, this is what it boils down to.

Anderson > Battie (Anderson will most likely be the first PF off the bench and he is a huge upgrade over Battie, not only in skills, but in youth. Upgrade)
Bass > Lee (Looking at their stats, Bass produced more in 6 minutes shorter time for the season than Lee did. Upgrade)
Carter > Hedo (This has been the case since both have been in the league. It won't change over the next 2 or 3 years, which is how long Carter will be on the Magic. Upgrade)
Nelson > Alston (Nelson was an allstar last year before his injury, while Alston will be a career journeyman. Not worried about the depth since the Magic went through half the season last year with just Nelson and Johnson and they won 36 games with that combo at PG. Upgrade)
Gortat = Gortat (Didn't lose him and getting him back means more depth for the Magic in the front court, meaning more options, more versatility, etc. Push)
Lewis moving back to his old position at SF (Upgrade in the sense that this is where he plays his best ball at. He also won't wear down, battling big men he shouldn't be battling)

All I see are upgrades so far from the Magic and the funny part is they aren't done. They are still pursuing Von Wafer/Barnes and will probably get one, meaning more depth. They also have said they will use that 8+ million TPE some time this coming season to add yet another player so that will be depth overload.

Any one who doesn't think the Magic haven't gotten better is really ignorant. No surprise a Boston fan is trying to down play their moves.


----------



## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Idunkonyou said:


> Once again, the Magic updated their roster across the board. For comparison's sake and what the player brought to the team, this is what it boils down to.
> 
> Anderson > Battie (Anderson will most likely be the first PF off the bench and he is a huge upgrade over Battie, not only in skills, but in youth. Upgrade)
> Bass > Lee (Looking at their stats, Bass produced more in 6 minutes shorter time for the season than Lee did. Upgrade)
> ...


Why can't we all just be friends? In reality, we're both trying to beat the Lakers next season.


----------



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

HB said:


> This is from a guy who is considered one of the best bball writers out there


Kelly Dwyer is HORRIBLE. Absolutely, positively, unequivocally HORRIBLE.

Look what he wrote about Jamaal Magloire before he had a productive season for Miami:



> Jamaal Magloire?
> 
> Are you freaking kidding me?
> 
> ...


Look what he wrote in the 2007-2008 season about MVP winner and future 2009 finals MVP Kobe Bryant in an article titled *Why ... Kobe Bryant is not your MVP*:



> He isn't. Sorry, but he isn't. He's awesome, but he's not the game's best player. He has the best chance of any NBA talent at dropping 75 points on your ***, and that's impressive, but *Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony* and Wade (when he's healthy) aren't far behind.


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

HB said:


> A.) I didnt want to quote your whole post, so thats why I shortened it to the NBA 2k9 statement. You've made the statement numerous times so you should know what I am getting at.


Has it resonated yet?



> B.) Hedo's skills mirror what Shard does, Vince gives them a whole new dimension. If you watched the Magic, you'd know Hedo couldnt create a shot without the aid of a pick and roll. He's not that great of a slasher either. Vince does both better than him.


THAT DOESN'T MATTER. That offense wasn't predicated on Hedo . His job was to be a huge shooting threat from the perimeter - something he fulfilled - and to create oppurtunities for other guys on the roster, serving as a secondary facilitator to Nelson or Alston - he fulfilled that as well.

How is that at all redundant with Shard? He isn't half the playmaker that Turkoglu is. His only offensive game consists of camping behind the three point line and occasionally forcing himself into the post for the hell of it. He's the guy Orlando should unload, granted that's virtually impossible given his toxic contract.



> Quell that talk about Vince dominating the ball, he's one of the most unselfish stars in the game.


lol



> Again, RJ and Harris had career years playing next to him.


O rly? Are you sure RJ's best years weren't correlated to some Jason Kidd guy?

Harris? Yeah, how many wins did that amount to?



> Lol, you just said a 4.3apg, 39% 3pt career shooter does not fit the mold of a reliable outside shooter and play maker :laugh: okie dokie.


Vince's 3pt% over the past four seasons: 34.1, 35.7, 35.9, 38.5. That averages out to oh, 36% about? I believe I have you on record as saying that is not a reliable 3pt shooting percentage. So which is it, skippy?

His assists are a product of his ball domination. When you handle it as much as he has/does, its physically impossible to not pass it every once in a while. This isn't critical thinking.



> I see your little small fonts italics thing, I wish I were smart enough to make some childish response like that, but my brain isnt functioning that way right now.


For now, just stick to attempting to post without butchering the English language.



> As for the top 7, top 8 part. Again, Otis committed to the better player with a shorter contract.


And the lesser fit for the system, at the expense of two other starters.



> Alston and Meer on the same team is redundant. They dont have minutes for both.


Maybe Alston would serve as one of the better backup points in the league, and provide insurance in case Nelson doesn't come back in top form. Ever think of that?



> Anderson is just as good as Lee if not better.


Do you watch anything other than NeTS!!! basketball?



> The season is far from over,


It hasn't started.



> so who knows who else the Magic will add, what they have is a valuable TPE and some nice trade assets. Otis is a miracle worker.


lol ok



23AJ said:


> What the hell, come on man, Rafer was filler, he was brought in to the Magic half way into the season because Jameer got injured, if Nelson was never injured Rafer would of never been on the Magic. Who cares Rafer is gone.


Yes, but Rafer was also involved in the Vince Carter deal, and he would have been a good backup point guard to have, particulary if Nelson doesn't return in prime form. So he deserves mention.



> Hedo Turkoglu, who was very important to the Magic, but left on his own terms. Hedo wanted a lot of money, and he got it, I can't blame the guy, I would take the money over playing for an elite team. Hedo made his run last year with the Magic and seems content to make it to the Finals. Live with it.


Wait, what? What the ****? What does Hedo's best interest have to do with this? Orlando traded for Carter before Turkoglu was allowed to even negotiate with other teams. I don't buy for one second that Turkoglu made up his mind that he was gone. What, he decided that he was hell-bent on leaving Orlando, a team that went to the finals, before he was even allowed to negotiate with other teams? Bull****. The Carter trade is to fault for Hedo bolting. The Magic initiated it. Not the other way around.

Let's try it this way. Who would you rather have, Courtney Lee _and_ Hedo Turkoglu, or Vince Carter?

Me being Orlando, I'll take Lee and Turkoglu. I look forward to reading the dozens of 'hater'-laced posts from the poorly-informed clowns of the NBA fanbase.



> Courtney Lee, Battie, and Alston for Carter and Andersen deal - Lee is a solid great up and coming player, but even than he was a bench player for the Magic initially ( started once Pietrus was injured), who was part of a package deal to be traded for a proven veteran.


You act like the Magic traded Gerald Green or something. Lee can _play_. And he is the only player out of the three (Carter, Lee, Turkoglu) that is a quality defender.

At the end of next season, Lee will be considered one of the best pickups of this offseason.



> I like the up side on Lee, but I like the game Carter will bring much more. Carters defense is also vastly underrated by most.


No it isn't.



> The Magic also got back Ryan Anderson another unheralded rookie who I believe was picked right ahead of Lee in the NBA draft. Anderson is going to be a perfect fit for the Magic, he can shoot the 3, as a rookie Anderson shot the 3 ball at a 37% clip, he plays defense, and can put the ball on the floor and create.


By itself, Anderson was a decent pickup. I have no qualms about that. He doesn't compare to Lee, though.



> Who cares if Otis Smith didn't think the Magic were good enough, especially if you know your going to lose an important player to your team, go out and try to do something about it, and utilize your Owners Rich pockets, and prey on the teams in the league that are trying to cut cap space.


In theory, that's all well and good. Ultimately, between Carter and Turkoglu, the guy they got was a better player than the guy they lost, but the former doesn't _fit the system_ nearly as well as the latter. If you don't think that matters, I don't know what to tell you.


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

HB said:


> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-Orlando-Magic-are-stacked?urn=nba,177027
> 
> This is from a guy who is considered one of the best bball writers out there and from his descriptions of Vince, he is no fan, but still the general consensus out there is that the Magic had a really good offseason, only 'haters' as Blue Magic calls them, try to paint it otherwise.


And now you're citing articles from idiot sportswriters to try and get across a failed point? This keeps getting better.


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

The '93 Heat said:


> Kelly Dwyer is HORRIBLE. Absolutely, positively, unequivocally HORRIBLE.
> 
> Look what he wrote about Jamaal Magloire before he had a productive season for Miami:
> 
> ...


BUT HE LIEKZ VEECEE!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!11!


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

This is the ultimate joke post. I'm gonna have fun tearing this one apart.



Idunkonyou said:


> Once again, the Magic updated their roster across the board. For comparison's sake and what the player brought to the team, this is what it boils down to.


So far, no regard for anything other than the best overall player. 2k9 mentality in full swing early on.



> Anderson > Battie (Anderson will most likely be the first PF off the bench and he is a huge upgrade over Battie, not only in skills, but in youth. Upgrade)


Accurate.



> Bass > Lee (Looking at their stats, Bass produced more in 6 minutes shorter time for the season than Lee did. Upgrade)


Why the **** are you comparing Bass, a power forward, and Lee, a guard? THEY DON'T HAVE A SINGLE ****ING SKILL IN COMMON. Are you that desperate where you don't even take roles/positions into account, and are just manipulating player A-player B comparisons just to say the new one is better? Holy hell is this a riot.



> Carter > Hedo (This has been the case since both have been in the league. It won't change over the next 2 or 3 years, which is how long Carter will be on the Magic. Upgrade)


Carter is the better player.

Hedo is the better fit.

Orlando sacrificed 3 of their most used players, 2 of them starters, to acquire Carter.

It wasn't a good move.



> Nelson > Alston (Nelson was an allstar last year before his injury, while Alston will be a career journeyman. Not worried about the depth since the Magic went through half the season last year with just Nelson and Johnson and they won 36 games with that combo at PG. Upgrade)


And what happens if Nelson doesn't come back from his injury 100%, and you're left with garbage to try and fill the gap? Just gonna risk it? That's wise.



> Gortat = Gortat (Didn't lose him and getting him back means more depth for the Magic in the front court, meaning more options, more versatility, etc. Push)


And now you're ****ing comparing players to themselves. This is incredible.



> Lewis moving back to his old position at SF (Upgrade in the sense that this is where he plays his best ball at. He also won't wear down, battling big men he shouldn't be battling)


I'll finish it for you: downgrade.



> All I see are upgrades so far from the Magic and the funny part is they aren't done. They are still pursuing Von Wafer/Barnes and will probably get one, meaning more depth. They also have said they will use that 8+ million TPE some time this coming season to add yet another player so that will be depth overload.


More 2k9 babble.



> Any one who doesn't think the Magic haven't gotten better is really ignorant. No surprise a Boston fan is trying to down play their moves.


O noez, the big bad Boston fan!!

This might be the single dumbest post I've ever read here. Miles ahead of anything DNKO ever posted. This one has it all - oozing homerism, lack of rational thought, lack of common sense, lack of basketball understanding... it goes on and on.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Anyone who uses the term 'hater' in reference to another fan is a fool. Its the ultimate 5th-grade copout and a cheap way to try and discredit someone who makes completely valid points when you have no way to refute them.
> 
> Sound familiar?
> 
> ...


Wow, now you understand cohesiveness and team play?? In that other thread you were telling me how I was a fool to think a healthy Orlando team could beat a healthy Boston team solely because your team was missing the greator individual part.... But now when it works in your favor your switch up your logic and your belief system? Ok, I can work with that. 

Lemme just break it down for you tho. Hedo wanted a fat, longterm contract and Orlando didnt think he was worth that _to us_. Clearly, this means that the coaches and GM deemed his services _expendable_ and _replaceable_. I dont know how you could call letting him go a move of 'panick', part of it was business and part of it was doing what best for the team as Hedo's contract demands didnt really fit in with the long term interest of the team. 

Alston and Battie were gonna have significantly lesser roles with Meer coming back and Orlando looking to add a tougher young big through FA. Both would be making around $12mil combined to essentially warm the bench and would expire after this season. We combined essentially two obsolete players w/ Lee to get VC and another young prospect in Anderson who could have potential in our system. That's not really a move of panic, it's a move to increase the firepower and the overall talent pool on the roster(both now and in the future). It sucks to see Lee go, but Lee was the only useful guy to us that we traded and to get VC and Anderson in return is a no brainer. Saying that we lost Alston and Battie may mean something on the surface, but when looking at the roles they wouldve played next season, we didnt give up much.




> Okay.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to see Orlando crumble. I'm a general NBA fan after being a Celtics/Kings fan. What you perceive as haterism is just my interpretations of their roster and transactions. *Making you a bad homer, since you can't deal with people not bowing in front of Vince Carter's statue without spewing 'hater' all over an otherwise decent board.*


I can deal with it. Just not from the guys who had to result to the _woulda coulda shoulda's_ becuase everyone didnt bow down to the Sheed acquisition and the proposition that Boston 'if healthy' would be undisputed 1st in the east. It's hypocritical for you of all people to call anyone a 'bad' homer.




> Ah yes, the 'us against the world' mentality.


Yup, pretty much is every season. Still cant get any respect as the EC champs.



> Are you and Jizzy the same person?


who?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Yes, but Rafer was also involved in the Vince Carter deal, and he would have been a good backup point guard to have, particulary if Nelson doesn't return in prime form. So he deserves mention.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And Battie was apart of the Vince Carter deal, but who cares! Just like Alston! who cares dude. Alston a good back up ? So what, the Magic have a decent back up already, and a great starting PG. 

So your going to tell me that Hedo wasn't going to test the F/A market for him ? Which obviously there was a lot of suitors. I don't buy the recent Hedo comments suggesting he was all innocent in the whole ordeal, and the Magic just didn't want him anymore because they picked up Vince. Sorry don't buy it one bit. I believe Hedo was never coming back, and the Magic were pro active about the situation, and went and got a great player. Props to the Magic. And between you and I, will just have to agree to disagree on Hedo.

Let's try it this way, I rather have Vince Carter and Ryan Anderson > Courtney Lee and Hedo Turkoglu.

Dude I have league pass, I saw the Magic in person play when they made it to my home state. I very well know how good Lee is, he's a solid player with a lot of up side. That said he's no where on the level of Vince Carter, hence the Magic brass making such a deal that would involve him being traded, (an openly admitted tough decision to do so) everyone likes Lee's game, and future, it's very bright. That said it's no where close to Vince Carter. I agree Lee is a quality defender, however Hedo/Carter are not scrubs like you are trying to make it out to be. Actually we saw Courtney Lee burned by fundamental pump fakes over and over in the playoffs by Kobe. Kid still has a lot to learn, about fundamentals defensively. 

You would take Lee and Hedo ? Good for you, but you know what we saw what that team could do, and they got their backsides handed to them in the Finals. Why don't you reserve judgement for this Vince Carter Magic team, until this up coming season is over.

Yes Anderson compares to Lee, and both Lee and Anderson will be considered great picks ups by next season. Hopefully Lee won't waste away in New Jersey as I don't see the Net's doing much damage in the East.

IMO Carter fit's the system just fine, and I probably have a lot more faith in Stan Van Gundy as a coach than you do. I bleieve Van Gundy will have another great coaching season, and Carter will thrive in Orlando.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Has it resonated yet?


It doesn't make sense to me, because everyone and their mama sees that the Magic got more flexible with their roster putting them in better shape to make better moves.



> THAT DOESN'T MATTER. That offense wasn't predicated on Hedo . His job was to be a huge shooting threat from the perimeter - something he fulfilled - and to create oppurtunities for other guys on the roster, serving as a secondary facilitator to Nelson or Alston - he fulfilled that as well.
> 
> How is that at all redundant with Shard? He isn't half the playmaker that Turkoglu is. His only offensive game consists of camping behind the three point line and occasionally forcing himself into the post for the hell of it. He's the guy Orlando should unload, granted that's virtually impossible given his toxic contract.


Umm the offense wont be predicated on Vince either. Dwight's still the number one guy, and Jameer will be doing most of the ball handling. Vince is there for crunch time play. Everything Hedo does, Vince does better. Its funny, Hedo basically sleep walks through the Philly series, gets pushed around in the Boston series, and shows up somewhat in the Lakers series, and somehow its doom and gloom because the Magic brought in a more accomplished scorer to replace him. Puhhlleasse!!!!! Where was all this talk of Hedo facilitating the offense when Iggy and co. shut his *** down?

Shard's not as good a playmaker as Hedo, but he's similar in that they are both shooting forwards that cant really create offense for themselves. The pick and roll is their bread and butter. Geez did you not watch the finals at all, where Hedo once the pick and roll was taken away would try to use the pump fake to bail himself out?



> O rly? Are you sure RJ's best years weren't correlated to some Jason Kidd guy?
> 
> Harris? Yeah, how many wins did that amount to?


Umm RJ averaged 20ppg because Vince allowed him to blossom into the player he is. Vince could have taken more shots on that team, but he's said on numerous times he didnt mind RJ being the man. Now of course you'd know better because you have watched more Nets games than me in the past four years...oh wait, that isn't true. The same thing happened with Devin, these guys know Vince is willing to take the back seat if need be.



> Vince's 3pt% over the past four seasons: 34.1, 35.7, 35.9, 38.5. That averages out to oh, 36% about? I believe I have you on record as saying that is not a reliable 3pt shooting percentage. So which is it, skippy?


Excuse you? When did I say 36% 3pt shooting isn't reliable? And last I checked, Vince's career average, not just his last 4 seasons, comes out to about 38%. Whats the point of averaging his last 4 seasons? Interestingly enough, that deadly shooter Hedo's career 3pt percentage also happens to be 38.



> His assists are a product of his ball domination. When you handle it as much as he has/does, its physically impossible to not pass it every once in a while. This isn't critical thinking.


See since I actually watch a lot of Nets ball, something you accuse me of below, I can tell you that you are pretty much talking bull. Vince doesn't dominate the ball, not anymore than the likes of Paul Pierce and Joe Johnson. He's actually a pretty good passer, but hey doubt you would know that, since you dont watch that much Nets games.



> For now, just stick to attempting to post without butchering the English language.


Didnt know school was in session. I'll try to keep that in mind.



> And the lesser fit for the system, at the expense of two other starters.


Common sense would tell you, that once Jameer got back, Alston's days were numbered. Lee's a nice young player, but they got something of equal value back so it cancels out. You watched the finals, you saw how SVG played both. There's no way Alston would be comfortable with that, when he can still get good minutes for a number of teams. Anthony Johnson is a much better backup than Alston.




> Do you watch anything other than NeTS!!! basketball?


I was going to ask you the same about Boston ball.



> It hasn't started.


But yet you have concluded that the Magic had a bad off season. Gotcha!

93 Heat, I dont follow Dwyer, but I see his articles being quoted on numerous sites, I'd think he has some credibility in certain basketball circles.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Devin Harris USG-r 27.4
Vince Carter USG-r 25.1
Paul Pierce USG- r 23.5
Joe Johnson USG-r 25.2

I'd even post more Usage ratings but whats the point, you still might not get it. Considering the Nets best two players were Harris and Carter, his usage numbers went up. On the Magic, with more accomplished players, he wont be holding the ball that long. Now how many guards/forwards with as high a rating as he had, averaged over 4 apg last season? HINT: Not too many.


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Blue Magic said:


> Wow, now you understand cohesiveness and team play?? In that other thread you were telling me how I was a fool to think a healthy Orlando team could beat a healthy Boston team solely because your team was missing the greator individual part.... But now when it works in your favor your switch up your logic and your belief system? Ok, I can work with that.


What does this have anything to do with that? You don't think Garnett fits in cohesively with the Celtics? He certainly fits better than any of the missing Magic players would have. The NBA title displays that effectively.



> Lemme just break it down for you tho. Hedo wanted a fat, longterm contract and Orlando didnt think he was worth that _to us_. Clearly, this means that the coaches and GM deemed his services _expendable_ and _replaceable_. I dont know how you could call letting him go a move of 'panick', part of it was business and part of it was doing what best for the team as Hedo's contract demands didnt really fit in with the long term interest of the team.


Maybe it was a good move for business. On the court, between him fitting the system better than Carter, and the fact that two other major players were surrendered in that deal, its a net loss.

lol, 'panick' 



> Alston and Battie were gonna have significantly lesser roles with Meer coming back and Orlando looking to add a tougher young big through FA. Both would be making around $12mil combined to essentially warm the bench and would expire after this season.


Battie doesn't matter. Alston is at worst one of the better backup PGs in the league, and would be valuable insurance in event of Nelson not being up to snuff upon his return. I've explained this multiple times now.



> We combined essentially two obsolete players w/ Lee to get VC and another young prospect in Anderson who could have potential in our system. That's not really a move of panic, it's a move to increase the firepower and the overall talent pool on the roster(both now and in the future).


If you sacrifice three quality players who did a good job for your team in favor of the big name and best player of the group (and Ryan Anderson, but I don't think he was the sole target all along), with little regards to how he actually fits... that is panic, at the very least its insecurity in feeling a need to significantly alter a Finals team.



> It sucks to see Lee go, but Lee was the only useful guy to us that we traded and to get VC and Anderson in return is a no brainer. Saying that we lost Alston and Battie may mean something on the surface, but when looking at the roles they wouldve played next season, we didnt give up much.


You have it bass-ackwards, as usual.



> I can deal with it. Just not from the guys who had to result to the _woulda coulda shoulda's_ becuase everyone didnt bow down to the Sheed acquisition and the proposition that Boston 'if healthy' would be undisputed 1st in the east. It's hypocritical for you of all people to call anyone a 'bad' homer.


If its so biased and outlandish, why did you constantly end up fisting yourself when attempting to try and claim otherwise, Plato?



> Yup, pretty much is every season. Still cant get any respect as the EC champs.


Clown.



> who?


One of the most biased, ill-reasoned posters, no _people_, on the face of the Earth. You bear many similarities to him, and he's been absent from the boards lately.


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

23AJ said:


> And Battie was apart of the Vince Carter deal, but who cares! Just like Alston! who cares dude. Alston a good back up ? So what, the Magic have a decent back up already, and a great starting PG.


Alston is a lot better than any current Magic point guard not named Jameer Nelson. I've also touched on the whole 'insurance' thing, have I not?



> So your going to tell me that Hedo wasn't going to test the F/A market for him ? Which obviously there was a lot of suitors. I don't buy the recent Hedo comments suggesting he was all innocent in the whole ordeal, and the Magic just didn't want him anymore because they picked up Vince. Sorry don't buy it one bit. I believe Hedo was never coming back, and the Magic were pro active about the situation, and went and got a great player. Props to the Magic. And between you and I, will just have to agree to disagree on Hedo.


Except Orlando could have competed in almost any scenario with him on the market, if they so chose. Since they could offer him the most.

Maybe Orlando was being proactive, since it would fit nicely with their sudden stroke of 'this team needs major changes' they've displayed this offseason.



> Let's try it this way, I rather have Vince Carter and Ryan Anderson > Courtney Lee and Hedo Turkoglu.


Terrific.



> Dude I have league pass, I saw the Magic in person play when they made it to my home state. I very well know how good Lee is, he's a solid player with a lot of up side. That said he's no where on the level of Vince Carter, hence the Magic brass making such a deal that would involve him being traded, (an openly admitted tough decision to do so) everyone likes Lee's game, and future, it's very bright. That said it's no where close to Vince Carter.


They (in essence) sacrificed two players in this deal. Two starters. For an aging shooting guard that could very well be inferior to Lee in two years. Taking that into account along with Hedo being the 3rd most important player to that team and (for the 1,492nd time) the better fit for what they do, its not the best decision for the present, and its also not a great basketball move for the future. Magic lost this one.



> I agree Lee is a quality defender, however Hedo/Carter are not scrubs like you are trying to make it out to be. Actually we saw Courtney Lee burned by fundamental pump fakes over and over in the playoffs by Kobe. Kid still has a lot to learn, about fundamentals defensively.


He's a good man defender, a good scorer, and has established such after his rookie year. His actual awareness needs work, as is the case with nearly every rookie out there. In the fact that he actually defend, he's ahead of the 8 ball.

Where did I make Hedo/Carter out to be scrubs? Good strawman. 



> You would take Lee and Hedo ? Good for you, but you know what we saw what that team could do, and they got their backsides handed to them in the Finals. Why don't you reserve judgement for this Vince Carter Magic team, until this up coming season is over.


They got to the finals, and then went into insano-trado mode and blew up much of the roster aside from Howard and Nelson.



> Yes Anderson compares to Lee, and both Lee and Anderson will be considered great picks ups by next season. Hopefully Lee won't waste away in New Jersey as I don't see the Net's doing much damage in the East.


New Jersey will compete for the playoffs, quite possibly make it. Addition by subtraction, as it pertains to Vincey. Harris, Lee, and Lopez will prove to be formidable.



> IMO Carter fit's the system just fine, and I probably have a lot more faith in Stan Van Gundy as a coach than you do. I bleieve Van Gundy will have another great coaching season, and Carter will thrive in Orlando.


So do you expect them to switch the system up to cater to VC's iso preferences? That's about the only way Carter could 'thrive' there.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

HB said:


> Devin Harris USG-r 27.4
> Vince Carter USG-r 25.1
> Paul Pierce USG- r 23.5
> Joe Johnson USG-r 25.2
> ...


LOL. Please, tell me how this magical stat is determined.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

The same way they determine True shooting percentages, adjusted field goal percentages, PER and the likes. Some people actually take time to put in statistical analysis rather than just go by their sometimes misguided opinions.

But this should answer your question better http://www.ehow.com/how_2096381_calculate-usage-rate-basketball.html


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> This is the ultimate joke post. I'm gonna have fun tearing this one apart.


Actually I take most, if not all of your posts as jokes. No one could be that ignorant so they have to be doing it just get a rise out of people.



Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> So far, no regard for anything other than the best overall player. 2k9 mentality in full swing early on.


Not sure what this means since every player the Magic have got in the offseason fits their style of play. Carter, Bass and Anderson all came from teams who were 3 point, run and gun type teams offensively or as I put it, best in the open court. The Magic are the same way and did have some what a decent half court game. Carter just improves the half court offensive game for the Magic since he is a legit one on one threat out on the perimeter, something the Magic have lacked since T-Mac left. They did have some decent slashers in Hedo, Pietrus, Nelson, etc, but all of them need pick and roll type plays to get free. Carter needs none of that.



Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Why the **** are you comparing Bass, a power forward, and Lee, a guard? THEY DON'T HAVE A SINGLE ****ING SKILL IN COMMON. Are you that desperate where you don't even take roles/positions into account, and are just manipulating player A-player B comparisons just to say the new one is better? Holy hell is this a riot.


I'm comparing what they bring to the table obviously. Bass brings more since he can defend the post, rebound AND score. We needed some one like Bass in the finals to match up with the Lakers better, just like we needed some one like Carter. We got both now.





Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Carter is the better player.
> 
> Hedo is the better fit.
> 
> ...


If they only got Carter then maybe you would have an argument. Too bad they replaced all 3 of those guys with Bass, Carter AND Anderson, who are upgrades at every position and all 3 fit the team quite well. 




Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> And what happens if Nelson doesn't come back from his injury 100%, and you're left with garbage to try and fill the gap? Just gonna risk it? That's wise.


He was 75 to 80 percent back in the finals. He just wasn't in playoff shape since he hadn't played for 4 months. I doubt he has a relapse and is probably already close to or 100%. It was also a freak injury. What are the chances of him having another freak injury like that? I'd say slim and none.




Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> And now you're ****ing comparing players to themselves. This is incredible.


I'm comparing Gortat to himself because he was a RFA and most people, like yourself, said he was as good as gone. He was retained and gives the Magic even more depth. If they would have retained Hedo, I would have put him in there as well saying he gives us another guy who we could have lost, but didn't and here is what he brings back to the team.





Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> I'll finish it for you: downgrade.


LMAO! Yeah because he never got to an allstar team as a SF for Seattle and never played SF for the Magic.





Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> O noez, the big bad Boston fan!!
> 
> This might be the single dumbest post I've ever read here. Miles ahead of anything DNKO ever posted. This one has it all - oozing homerism, lack of rational thought, lack of common sense, lack of basketball understanding... it goes on and on.


Big bad Boston fan? Actually most of you sound like this. Just as ignorant as the next and after talking to most of you, I doubt any of you watch sports outside of Boston. I bet you also think replacing Big Baby Davis, Marbury and Powe with just Wallace made the Celtics contenders again, LOL! Go ahead and say it so I can laugh at you. I'll give you a tip on Boston's future. They aren't going any where with a crappy bench, same as Cleveland and that is pretty much what both teams have right now. Crap off their bench.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> THAT DOESN'T MATTER. That offense wasn't predicated on Hedo . His job was to be a huge shooting threat from the perimeter - something he fulfilled - and to create oppurtunities for other guys on the roster, serving as a secondary facilitator to Nelson or Alston - he fulfilled that as well.


Hedo fulfilled those things, albeit inconsistently. All the things he did, VC can do and more. Two things Orlando lacked 1) a true iso player with size and who can get to the rim whenever and finish(Meer can get his own shot in isolation, but his size limits his tendancy to drive)



> How is that at all redundant with Shard? He isn't half the playmaker that Turkoglu is. His only offensive game consists of camping behind the three point line and occasionally forcing himself into the post for the hell of it. He's the guy Orlando should unload, granted that's virtually impossible given his toxic contract.


True, Shard is a different player but he still creates a similar mismatch in the sense that he's a 6'10" SF with perimeter skills. Granted, he's not the ball handler Turk was but he's a more consistent shooter and much better at using his size in the post. 




> And the lesser fit for the system, at the expense of two other starters.


Not fact, just your opinion. The system that Orlando runs doest have to be limited to just one thing or one way. I dont think you understand this. Orlando can throw alot of different lineups at ppl right now, and the pieces to play multiple different ways. Stop trying to put them in a box!



> Maybe Alston would serve as one of the better backup points in the league, and provide insurance in case Nelson doesn't come back in top form. Ever think of that?


Last thing we need to do is pay $6mil fo a PG to play 12 mpg rite now.... AJ is adequate enough and VC can help out. If Jameer gets hurt again, we have JJ or a TPE to move to pick up something else...




> Wait, what? What the ****? What does Hedo's best interest have to do with this? Orlando traded for Carter before Turkoglu was allowed to even negotiate with other teams. I don't buy for one second that Turkoglu made up his mind that he was gone. What, he decided that he was hell-bent on leaving Orlando, a team that went to the finals, before he was even allowed to negotiate with other teams? Bull****. The Carter trade is to fault for Hedo bolting. The Magic initiated it. Not the other way around.


Actually, Hedo initiated it when he opted out. 



> Let's try it this way. Who would you rather have, Courtney Lee _and_ Hedo Turkoglu, or Vince Carter?


Lol, it's not like that. You've got to look at the net gain over course of this offseason.



> Me being Orlando, I'll take Lee and Turkoglu. I look forward to reading the dozens of 'hater'-laced posts from the poorly-informed clowns of the NBA fanbase.


 Of course you hate the move because you're looking at it wrong....



> You act like the Magic traded Gerald Green or something. Lee can _play_. And he is the only player out of the three (Carter, Lee, Turkoglu) that is a quality defender.


Except he was as exposed too small to really effect Kobe or LBJ, which kind of eases the thoght of losing him. The guys where we would need his defense the most for, they could just take him into the post... With VC's offense, slightly less defense but more size wont hurt us too bad. We still have Pietrus off the bench for his D if we need it.



> At the end of next season, Lee will be considered one of the best pickups of this offseason.


I agree 




> In theory, that's all well and good. Ultimately, between Carter and Turkoglu, the guy they got was a better player than the guy they lost, but the former doesn't _fit the system_ nearly as well as the latter. If you don't think that matters, I don't know what to tell you.


You're making too much out of the 'fit the system' issue. SVG is a guy who has always maximized the talent that's in front of him. Quit trying to lock our team inside of a box and admit that Orlando will have versatility. Orlando is gonna be one of the more versatile teams in the league next year and SVG should have a blast with the matchups that this team can create.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I personally think the Cavs are the best team in the East. The Parker signing was really underrated. Bron finally gets a guy who isnt an undersized 2 guard that can score and defend quite nicely.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

It's hard to say. A lot of Magic's success last post season had to do with teams's inability to guard both Hedo and Lewis. Now with Hedo gone the matchup problem is solved for quite a few playoff teams. VC is a better overall player than Hedo but one thing that VC doesn't do is create mismatch at either the SF or the PF position. With both Alston and Lee gone the Magic's back court now consists of VC, Pietrus, Nelson, Reddick, Anthony Johnson. It is still a decent backcourt but it lacks the spark that Lee provided last season.

I think the most important signing in the East is Sheed in Boston. KG and Sheed will become the best post defense tandem in the league next year(if KG is healthy) and they are my pick to come out of the East.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

HB said:


> It doesn't make sense to me, because everyone and their mama sees that the Magic got more flexible with their roster putting them in better shape to make better moves.


Is that right.



> Umm the offense wont be predicated on Vince either. Dwight's still the number one guy, and Jameer will be doing most of the ball handling.


No ****.



> Vince is there for crunch time play. Everything Hedo does, Vince does better.


In a word, no.



> Its funny, Hedo basically sleep walks through the Philly series, gets pushed around in the Boston series,


He scored 16 a game in the Boston series.



> and shows up somewhat in the Lakers series, and somehow its doom and gloom because the Magic brought in a more accomplished scorer to replace him. Puhhlleasse!!!!!


18 a game on 50% shooting is showing up somewhat?

With that last bit, you continue to put your paltry basketball knowledge on center display. Your valiant defense of Vince, no matter what the circumstance, coupled with your touting of Zach Randolph show that indeed all you do is form your opinions based off of what 2K sports tells you.



> Where was all this talk of Hedo facilitating the offense when Iggy and co. shut his *** down?


If scoring 12 game is being the victim of sum sik shutdownzzzzz... who am I to argue?



> Shard's not as good a playmaker as Hedo, but he's similar in that they are both shooting forwards that cant really create offense for themselves.


Nice and vague.

Gerald Green and Tyrus Thomas are also similar players, because of their athleticism.



> The pick and roll is their bread and butter. Geez did you not watch the finals at all, where Hedo once the pick and roll was taken away would try to use the pump fake to bail himself out?


What's your point? Hedo's overall performance in the Finals leads me to believe that you, again, are grasping for straws.



> Umm RJ averaged 20ppg because Vince allowed him to blossom into the player he is. Vince could have taken more shots on that team, but he's said on numerous times he didnt mind RJ being the man.


Do you believe everything those dip****s on YES network tell you?

Jason Kidd was much more instrumental in RJ's performance than Carter. How could RJ have been the man when Carter outscored him in 3 of the 4 seasons they played together? Whoops.



> Now of course you'd know better because you have watched more Nets games than me in the past four years...oh wait, that isn't true. The same thing happened with Devin, these guys know Vince is willing to take the back seat if need be.


He never does. The only reason Harris outperformed him last year was because Harris dominated the ball much more than Kidd.



> Excuse you? When did I say 36% 3pt shooting isn't reliable?


...



HB said:


> 35% is barely decent.


Tee hee, I can already forsee his retort.



> And last I checked, Vince's career average, not just his last 4 seasons, comes out to about 38%. Whats the point of averaging his last 4 seasons? Interestingly enough, that deadly shooter Hedo's career 3pt percentage also happens to be 38.


Because it gives you an accurate reflection of how he's performing lately. Why should I give a **** about his percentages from 8 or 9 years ago? That doesn't tell me anything. Using career stats only gives you an excuse to say 'well he can bounce back to this form', or 'look how good he is at his best!'.



> See since I actually watch a lot of Nets ball, something you accuse me of below, I can tell you that you are pretty much talking bull.


You watch that much Nets ball and still can't string together a sensical argument. Sad. At least you're resiliant.

Vince doesn't dominate the ball, not anymore than the likes of Paul Pierce and Joe Johnson. He's actually a pretty good passer, but hey doubt you would know that, since you dont watch that much Nets games.[/QUOTE]

His passing ability alone may be decent, but his playmaking (they aren't quite the same) ability is not. Maybe if he'd actually utilize that passing ability on occasion, he'd show me what a wrongie-head I am.



> Didnt know school was in session. I'll try to keep that in mind.


Please do, its more convenient for me when I don't have to dechiper your post before replying to it.



> Common sense would tell you, that once Jameer got back, Alston's days were numbered.


Thinking about it for more than 3 seconds would tell you that Jameer might not be the same guy for a while after this injury. Alston provides insurance in such an event. Alston would also make a very good backup point, which would prove useful itself.



> Lee's a nice young player, but they got something of equal value back so it cancels out. You watched the finals, you saw how SVG played both.


It was two starters and a sixth man for Carter (and Anderson). The former two give you more than Vince does.



> There's no way Alston would be comfortable with that, when he can still get good minutes for a number of teams. Anthony Johnson is a much better backup than Alston.


lol



> I was going to ask you the same about Boston ball.


The answer is yes.


Now I'll ask you, do you _comprehend_ anything other than Nets ball?



> But yet you have concluded that the Magic had a bad off season. Gotcha!


Not necessarily bad, more like stagnant.



> 93 Heat, I dont follow Dwyer, but I see his articles being quoted on numerous sites, I'd think he has some credibility in certain basketball circles.


So does Bill Plaschke.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

seifer0406 said:


> It's hard to say. A lot of Magic's success last post season had to do with teams's inability to guard both Hedo and Lewis. Now with Hedo gone the matchup problem is solved for quite a few playoff teams. VC is a better overall player than Hedo but one thing that VC doesn't do is create mismatch at either the SF or the PF position. With both Alston and Lee gone the Magic's back court now consists of VC, Pietrus, Nelson, Reddick, Anthony Johnson. It is still a decent backcourt but it lacks the spark that Lee provided last season.
> 
> I think the most important signing in the East is Sheed in Boston. KG and Sheed will become the best post defense tandem in the league next year(if KG is healthy) and they are my pick to come out of the East.


Hater!


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

HB said:


> The same way they determine True shooting percentages, adjusted field goal percentages, PER and the likes. Some people actually take time to put in statistical analysis rather than just go by their sometimes misguided opinions.


The fact that this falls in line with PER is enough to discredit it.

Problem with your statistical analysis is, those stats such as PER don't take the many important intangibles and variables into effect. So, in essence, you're using misguided information to try and disprove what you deem a misguided opinion. Fail.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

I'm tired, I'll clean up the rest of this tomorrow.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> What does this have anything to do with that? You don't think Garnett fits in cohesively with the Celtics? He certainly fits better than any of the missing Magic players would have. The NBA title displays that effectively.


Lol, typical of you to blatantly miss the point. The moral of the story is, the mere collections of individual parts or pieces, isnt a reflection of the greatness of a _team_. Or as the great Aritotle once said, 'the whole(meaning a complete team) is greater than(meaning more significant than) the sum(meaning the comparing of individual parts)'. 



> Maybe it was a good move for business. On the court, between him fitting the system better than Carter, and the fact that two other major players were surrendered in that deal, its a net loss.


You seem to not grasp that Alston and Battie were NOT major players for Orlando to give up. They're only major players in your own mind. They wouldnt be contributing much this yr unless there was some kind of emergancy or significant injury(we'll cross that bridge again when it comes if we have to). 



> lol, 'panick'


Ur so funny 



> Battie doesn't matter. Alston is at worst one of the better backup PGs in the league, and would be valuable insurance in event of Nelson not being up to snuff upon his return. I've explained this multiple times now.


Jameer plays better when he's not looking over his shoulder. Alston was a luxury, not a necessity and Jameer was putting up great #'s when he was the undisputed guy. We dont need any drama from Alston, not to mention his $6mil salary..... I dont know if you realized, but it was almost inevitable that Alston was gonna be traded... Not a shocker. Meer + VC is eons better than Alston + Lee. Easy decision.



> If you sacrifice three quality players who did a good job for your team in favor of the big name and best player of the group (and Ryan Anderson, but I don't think he was the sole target all along), with little regards to how he actually fits... that is panic, at the very least its insecurity in feeling a need to significantly alter a Finals team.


3 quality players, two of which were gonna be irrelevent this season barring a catastrophic injury(knock wood). You seem to think Battie and Alston were gonna be featured players.... they weren't. We dont need Skip eating into to Meers minutes when he was thriving last yr w/o Skip. I wouldnt mind an upgrade over AJ, but dumping that $6mil salary for Skip isnt quite a panic move, its a reasonable decision.



> You have it bass-ackwards, as usual.


You're in over your head, young Jacob. Just fall back.



> If its so biased and outlandish, why did you constantly end up fisting yourself when attempting to try and claim otherwise, Plato?


I didnt say it was outlandish. Only thing outlandish about it was _you_ dismissing Orlando as essentially not standing a chance and logically falling in defeat. You can never give the other side a little credit, it's always an excuse, 'ifs', and hypotheticals. Just give Orlando a _little_ credit. Just try it. It wont kill you.



> Clown.


:whiteflag:



> One of the most biased, ill-reasoned posters, no _people_, on the face of the Earth. You bear many similarities to him, and he's been absent from the boards lately.


Wow, ok. Go back to the beggining of the Boston-Orlando series thread before the series even started and tell how biased I am/was. Ive _been_ giving your team credit and your too stupid to realize it cuase you get soo uptide when I defend my own team. Then, I become some unrealistic homer because I dont bow down to KG's Celtice. No, I said it would be a good battle im just saying that my team wouldve had a legit chance at it either way. You only see things from one side, though. You're side. Ive been giving your team credit, which is something I cant say you've done for Orlando.... I guess me saying Sheed is a good pickup for Boston is me being ill-reasoned. What was I thinking. $6mil for a 35yr old broken down has-been to stand in a corner and launch 3's?? Fit's right in with your AARP squad up there. Better?


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

This thread is baffling. I don't get what all the hubbub's about.

The Magic failed to win the NBA Championship this past season. Their GM decided that the team needed to change if they wanted to win the title this next season, so he made moves that he thinks will do just that. Are they guaranteed to work out as planned? No. Is it possible that it works out swimmingly? Sure.

The elite teams of the NBA are still the elite teams - one of 'em is going to win it all this year, and it might be the Magic if things go right.

It's really not that complicated or that big of a deal - is it? :whoknows:


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

seifer0406 said:


> It's hard to say. A lot of Magic's success last post season had to do with teams's inability to guard both Hedo and Lewis. Now with Hedo gone the matchup problem is solved for quite a few playoff teams. VC is a better overall player than Hedo but one thing that VC doesn't do is create mismatch at either the SF or the PF position. With both Alston and Lee gone the Magic's back court now consists of VC, Pietrus, Nelson, Reddick, Anthony Johnson. It is still a decent backcourt but it lacks the spark that Lee provided last season.
> 
> I think the most important signing in the East is Sheed in Boston. KG and Sheed will become the best post defense tandem in the league next year(if KG is healthy) and they are my pick to come out of the East.


Does Paul Pierce create a mismatch at the SF and PF position? VC is no worse than Pierce. Shard is no worse of a player than Ray Allen at this stage(Both mostly a threat as spot up shooters). KG>Bass. Dwight>Perk. Ill say Meer=Rondo. Who has the better bench? MP,Gortat,JJ, Anderson vs Sheed,House,Scal,Baby?.... These teams arent that far apart.... And just because Vince isnt 6'10, doesnt mean he'll be easier to stop. Dont be silly. :naughty:


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Blue Magic said:


> Does Paul Pierce create a mismatch at the SF and PF position? VC is no worse than Pierce. Shard is no worse of a player than Ray Allen at this stage(Both mostly a threat as spot up shooters). KG>Bass. Dwight>Perk. Ill say Meer=Rondo. Who has the better bench? MP,Gortat,JJ, Anderson vs Sheed,House,Scal,Baby?.... These teams arent that far apart.... And just because Vince isnt 6'10, doesnt mean he'll be easier to stop. Dont be silly. :naughty:


In theory, it would be easier for Delonte West to guard someone like Vince Carter or Paul Pierce instead of Hedo Turkoglu. But who knows how it will actually play out. I don't know why you would compare Ray Allen to Rashard Lewis since they play different positions. 

I think Orlando could be a better team than the 08-09 by the time playoffs roll around. However, there are still questions in my mind how the Orlando will play through the regular season. While Carter may represent a slight upgrade over Turkoglu in a best case scenario, I wonder if he can jump in and Orlando will click right off the bat. And the regular season matters a lot because it will determine who gets homecourt.

I think if Boston gets back a healthy KG, that trumps any offseason acquisition that Orlando just made. He was a top 5-7 player before his injury. Ultimately, Orlando's fate will rest on its best player, Dwight Howard and if he can improve his postgame.

Boston is the offseason favorite, moreso what they were able to accomplish in 07-08. But offseason prognosis usually doesn't meant much since games are not played on paper.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

imo vince will fit in just fine.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Alston is a lot better than any current Magic point guard not named Jameer Nelson. I've also touched on the whole 'insurance' thing, have I not?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Magic have plenty of insurance via flexibility with their roster. You seem to be the only one missing this crucial point THAT SEEMS OBVIOUS!! If they need another PG down the road, they have the ability to get one. 

Let me ask you a question, Did you even watch the damn finals ?? How many games did Rafer throw up duds in the Finals? Quite a few games if I recall correctly. Rafer Alston aka Skip To My Lou is filler, and so was Battie, the only guy worth squat the Nets got in the deal was Lee. And I've already conveyed to you my feelings on Lee. Carter/Anderson was a huge win win for the Magic in that deal.

I have no idea what offer Orlando was willing to give Hedo, but Hedo went else where for a lot of bones and a different scene. Good for him. Just like good for Trevor Ariza. Are we going to hear you talk about a complete over haul of the Lakers if Odom goes else where ?? Since LA will have lost two of their starters on their Championship team ? I sincerely hope not. Ugh.

Vince Carter and Ryan Anderson "They're Great!" like Kellogg's Tony The Tiger would say! but I'll take terrific from you. :champagne:

The Magic didn't give up two starters, IMO. Lee became a starter by default do to injury, and Alston isn't a starter anymore, he's a back up journeyman at this point, hence the Rockets trading him and giving the reigns to AB. And once again the only reason Alston was starting in Orlando is because of Nelsons injury. Secondly You call Vince Carter an aging shooting guard, WHO CARES what his age is, it's the merit of his basketball skills that matter. Am I debating with an ageism guy on my hand, that reads more into a birth certificate than a players actual abilities. God I hope not!!

Who cares about two years from now, last year the Magic were in the Finals. Obviously they want to go back this up coming season, and the next season, and as time goes by they may have to Gasp! retool like most teams in the NBA do. Vince Carter can help propel this team quite possibly in the now. No fan want's to wait for tomorrow. As a Boston Celtics fan you should be the first to understand that. 

Your opinion of Hedo is great, Hedo had some very nice games in the playoffs, he was a good play maker, and hit some big shots, but Hedo also floundered in the playoffs at times. You keep judging how the Magic will play with out Hedo, but you don't have the slightest clue. I believe in Stan Van Gundy, dude is a great coach who could out work anybody in this forum about basketball and x's and o's. So why not reserve judgement and see what kind of game plan Van gundy put's together, and see how well this team plays, before predicting such and such like your the next coming of Nostradamus.

I agree Courtney Lee needs a lot of work, but the kid has a bright future. Hopefully it works out well for him. Even though I can't stand the Nets organization. 

It's not a strawman purposefully, it's the way you paint the picture with words that comes across when you discuss Hedo/Carters defense. And IMO you make them sound like scrubs compared to Lee, which is the furthest thing from the truth. However I'm sure will both have to agree to disagree on this point of contention. 

They went to the Finals, and lost. The GM is doing his job, in hopes to help the Magic by bringing in players that may help them get back to the Finals, but WIN!

New Jersey will compete much like they did last season, in the bottom of the Eastern Conference cellar. 

I'm not sure what Van Gundy is going to do, and what kind of game plan/system this team will insert next season, but one thing is damn certain, I'm not going to pretend the Magic don't have an ample team that is very talented who can cause hell on the rest of the league, because they sure do, and are very capable with the team presently constituted to win it all. Only time will tell, and that's why I'm a league pass subscriber the past 5 years, it gives you great insight on how all the teams around the league are coming together. I highly recommended it.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Does Paul Pierce create a mismatch at the SF and PF position? VC is no worse than Pierce. Shard is no worse of a player than Ray Allen at this stage(Both mostly a threat as spot up shooters). KG>Bass. Dwight>Perk. Ill say Meer=Rondo. Who has the better bench? MP,Gortat,JJ, Anderson vs Sheed,House,Scal,Baby?.... These teams arent that far apart.... And just because Vince isnt 6'10, doesnt mean he'll be easier to stop. Dont be silly. :naughty:


I don't know why you brought Pierce into this. The inability for the Cavs to guard both Hedo and Lewis is essentially what won Magic the series. With VC that advantage is now non-existant. Think of this way, last year when Lebron was guarding Lewis or Turkoglu, nobody on the Cavs team had the size to guard the other 2. Now with Vince and Lewis, the Cavs can put 3 different guys (West/Pavlovic/Parker) on Vince while Lebron shut down Lewis. If the Magic still had Turkoglu the Cavs stlil don't have any answer for this mismatch. Now, is VC good enough so that it is worth it for the Magic to give up that matchup advantage? I don't know, it is too early to tell. Therefore all I was saying is that they gave up an edge, and imo that edge was essentially what won them that Cleveland series.

Bench in the playoffs is overrated because teams get a day, sometimes 2 days rest between games and almost all stars play close to 40 minutes or more. The Magic's bench is solid and it will definitely help in the regular season, but that isn't something that will have a serious impact in the playoffs.

And you seem to forget about Rasheed Wallace's low post defense. He is still widely considered as one of the best low post defenders even this late of his career. With him likely starting Perkins will be the one that will come off the bench, which then balance things out quite a bit as I'll take him over Gortat. It looks like they might lose Glen Davis though, it'll be interesting to see who they pick up to fill that void.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> I don't know why you brought Pierce into this. The inability for the Cavs to guard both Hedo and Lewis is essentially what won Magic the series. With VC that advantage is now non-existant. Think of this way, last year when Lebron was guarding Lewis or Turkoglu, nobody on the Cavs team had the size to guard the other 2. Now with Vince and Lewis, the Cavs can put 3 different guys (West/Pavlovic/Parker) on Vince while Lebron shut down Lewis. If the Magic still had Turkoglu the Cavs stlil don't have any answer for this mismatch. Now, is VC good enough so that it is worth it for the Magic to give up that matchup advantage? I don't know, it is too early to tell. Therefore all I was saying is that they gave up an edge, and imo that edge was essentially what won them that Cleveland series.
> 
> *Bench in the playoffs is overrated* because teams get a day, sometimes 2 days rest between games and almost all stars play close to 40 minutes or more. The Magic's bench is solid and it will definitely help in the regular season, but that isn't something that will have a serious impact in the playoffs.
> 
> And you seem to forget about Rasheed Wallace's low post defense. He is still widely considered as one of the best low post defenders even this late of his career. With him likely starting Perkins will be the one that will come off the bench, which then balance things out quite a bit as I'll take him over Gortat. It looks like they might lose Glen Davis though, it'll be interesting to see who they pick up to fill that void.


It is funny you say that, especially after what just happened in the playoffs this year. One of the key factors for the Magic AND Lakers making it to the finals this year was their bench play. Pietrus alone was out scoring the Cavs/Celtics bench every other game and Odom was the X factor in every Laker series win.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Hmm, when do the Celts and Magic play next season? :champagne:


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

23AJ said:


> The Magic have plenty of insurance via flexibility with their roster. You seem to be the only one missing this crucial point THAT SEEMS OBVIOUS!! If they need another PG down the road, they have the ability to get one.
> 
> Let me ask you a question, Did you even watch the damn finals ?? How many games did Rafer throw up duds in the Finals? Quite a few games if I recall correctly. Rafer Alston aka Skip To My Lou is filler, and so was Battie, the only guy worth squat the Nets got in the deal was Lee. And I've already conveyed to you my feelings on Lee. Carter/Anderson was a huge win win for the Magic in that deal.
> 
> ...


I think if Otis signs Barnes or Von Wafer, you will see him trade Redick for a PG because they won't need him any more.

They started Hedo out with a 4 year, 36 million dollar deal. They upped that to 5 years, 45 million and stopped there. The first offer was more than enough for a guy who has been inconsistent every year, minus 1, in an Orlando Magic uniform IMO. He has never been consistent in the playoffs either. Carter I think will bring more consistency to the team in what they get from him night in and night out, unlike Hedo for which you never knew which Hedo would show up. It would have been nice to keep Hedo, but not for 5 years, 53 million. He wasn't staying regardless because his wife didn't want to live in Orlando.

Carter and Bass were brought in because the Magic were getting beat on the boards in the finals since they didn't have that big man to bang with Howard and because they didn't have that go to guy on the perimeter to offset what Kobe was doing against the Magic offensively. Honestly the Magic have more flexibility for lineups now than they ever have. Want to go with what worked last year? Start Pietrus at SF and move Lewis to PF. Want to go with a more traditional lineup or bigger lineup? Start Bass or Gortat at PF and Lewis at SF.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

seifer0406 said:


> I don't know why you brought Pierce into this. The inability for the Cavs to guard both Hedo and Lewis is essentially what won Magic the series. With VC that advantage is now non-existant. Think of this way, last year when Lebron was guarding Lewis or Turkoglu, nobody on the Cavs team had the size to guard the other 2. Now with Vince and Lewis, the Cavs can put 3 different guys (West/Pavlovic/Parker) on Vince while Lebron shut down Lewis. If the Magic still had Turkoglu the Cavs stlil don't have any answer for this mismatch. Now, is VC good enough so that it is worth it for the Magic to give up that matchup advantage? I don't know, it is too early to tell. Therefore all I was saying is that they gave up an edge, and imo that edge was essentially what won them that Cleveland series.


I dont see it. I just dont see. I dont see where we gave up any great advantage that cant still be exploited. Sure Hedo was 6'10 but he rarely ever used his size to take advantage of players in the post. Despite having West on him, most of his points came from pickNrolls where Z or Varejao were stuck on him or he would just settle for shooting jumpers over West. I dont see why Vince somehow cant exploit the pickNroll like Hedo could.... and in terms of being too short to just shoot over over West like Hedo could, its not a big issue when VC is much better at creating space off the dribble. Vince is better than Hedo. I feel like even if we got Kobe, we would still be worse off simply because Kobe isnt 6'10.... My goodness. Magic really lose no great advantage as we can still run a lineup of Meer,Pietrus,VC,Shard,Dwight and exploit Shaq/Z or Varejao in the same ways.... Meer is a much better pickNroll PG than Skip because he's a consistent shooting threat. CLE is better off in the sense that Parker will bolster their backcourt(w/ his shooting and size) and West will be great off their bench, but not in the sense that Orlando can no longer exploit their frontcourt which everyone is trying to claim.... Parker is an underrated pickup for Cleveland tho. He will be good for them.



> Bench in the playoffs is overrated because teams get a day, sometimes 2 days rest between games and almost all stars play close to 40 minutes or more. The Magic's bench is solid and it will definitely help in the regular season, but that isn't something that will have a serious impact in the playoffs.


Maybe when you play the bum teams in the playoffs it wont matter, but it matters when you play the elite teams. LO off the bench was part of what made the Lakers soo damn great, outside of Kobe of course. Their frontcourt was like a revolving door of great size, length, and talent. Pietrus was huge for Orlando off the bench as a sparklug. A _deep_ bench may not be as important, but having at least one explosive guy or capable starter coming off the bench who can change the pace off the game is almost a must have. Cleveland definitely got better in this area with the pick-up of Parker.



> And you seem to forget about Rasheed Wallace's low post defense. He is still widely considered as one of the best low post defenders even this late of his career. With him likely starting Perkins will be the one that will come off the bench, which then balance things out quite a bit as I'll take him over Gortat. It looks like they might lose Glen Davis though, it'll be interesting to see who they pick up to fill that void.


I've already said that Sheed was a good pick-up for them, so I agree. I dont know if they'll start him, but we'll probably see heavy doses of Sheed & KG together. An amazing frontcourt combination that can spread the floor for Pierce, Ray, and Rondo to attack, and still bring great D. Ive given Boston plenty of props, but you have to consider that outside of Rondo & Perk, their team is getting older. Can all these guys continue to play at a high level every night? We'll see. Orlando is a much younger team across the board right now, outside of Vince. They are the EC Champs. Celtics and Cavs will still be right their but as of right now, anyone coming out of the East will have to come thru I-4.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Idunkonyou said:


> I think if Otis signs Barnes or Von Wafer, you will see him trade Redick for a PG because they won't need him any more.
> 
> They started Hedo out with a 4 year, 36 million dollar deal. They upped that to 5 years, 45 million and stopped there. The first offer was more than enough for a guy who has been inconsistent every year, minus 1, in an Orlando Magic uniform IMO. He has never been consistent in the playoffs either. Carter I think will bring more consistency to the team in what they get from him night in and night out, unlike Hedo for which you never knew which Hedo would show up. It would have been nice to keep Hedo, but not for 5 years, 53 million. He wasn't staying regardless because his wife didn't want to live in Orlando.
> 
> Carter and Bass were brought in because the Magic were getting beat on the boards in the finals since they didn't have that big man to bang with Howard and because they didn't have that go to guy on the perimeter to offset what Kobe was doing against the Magic offensively. Honestly the Magic have more flexibility for lineups now than they ever have. Want to go with what worked last year? Start Pietrus at SF and move Lewis to PF. Want to go with a more traditional lineup or bigger lineup? Start Bass or Gortat at PF and Lewis at SF.


Slightly off topic, but I'd rather keep Redick than replace him with Von Wafer. Wafer has the skill of a decent 6th man in the NBA and the ego of LeBron, Kobe and Wade put together. Redick has put in the work so far in the NBA to get better at the other aspects of his game. It's ironic that Redick played great defense, made plays off the dribble and showed he could pass in the playoffs last year, and it was his cold shooting off all things that knocked him out of the rotation. Wafer was the idiot who got kicked out of a playoff game by his own coach last year, and the same idiot who was suspended in college because Leonard Hamilton dared to tell him he had to go to class in order to play basketball. Wafer was the idiot who then said **** you, suspend me and I'll just go to the NBA. Wafer is a clown and not worth taking on for the offensive spark he can provide you. 

Barnes on the other hand, I would love to get. I still don't think trading Redick is the right thing to do. I'm fine going into the season with Anthony Johnson backing up Jameer.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Whats your beef with PER Jacoby? Too complex to understand?



> In a word, no.


What does Hedo do better than Vince? Can you back it up with something other than your opinion? I am thinking the answer is no.



> 18 a game on 50% shooting is showing up somewhat?
> 
> With that last bit, you continue to put your paltry basketball knowledge on center display. Your valiant defense of Vince, no matter what the circumstance, coupled with your touting of Zach Randolph show that indeed all you do is form your opinions based off of what 2K sports tells you.


Lol @ paltry basketball knowledge. Says the basketball guru. The guy's been on and off all season, shows up in the finals and he's somehow the savior of Magic basketball. Vince has been one of the premier scorers in the game, even in his off seasons. Zach Randolph, has been one of the very few bigs in the game to average 20/10 in the league. I never made any out to be what they are not. You might not like arguments, because you know its true. So you try your childish little lets try and mock the poster acts. Its even more hilarious you try to pass yourself as some basketball guru, when you cant even get the simple point that the Magic have positioned themselves in a better position to bring in more talent. Guess that part hasn't clicked in yet.



> What's your point? Hedo's overall performance in the Finals leads me to believe that you, again, are grasping for straws.


What in the world are you talking about? You keep bringing up his performance like he lit the Lakers up. The reason the Magic lost was because their long shots were falling and they couldn't get anyone who could create reliable offense. Hedo and co. couldn't even get into the lane, and once again without the pick and roll dude is pretty much useless. Hey, you are the basketball guru, shouldn't you have picked up on that. Since you know so much about basketball, maybe you can explain to me why the Magic lost that series.



> If scoring 12 game is being the victim of sum sik shutdownzzzzz... who am I to argue?


Whoopeee!!! He scored 12. Guess he wasn't shut down after all lol. How about struggled? Is that a better term?



> Do you believe everything those dip****s on YES network tell you?
> 
> Jason Kidd was much more instrumental in RJ's performance than Carter. How could RJ have been the man when Carter outscored him in 3 of the 4 seasons they played together? Whoops.


Lol, talk about grasping at straws. RJ was a Kidd product earlier in the 2000s, but once he developed his jumper, he started relying on his own skills a lot more. How did Kidd make him a better jump shooter? Maybe he helped guide the ball into the rim. That Kidd, such a miracle worker. You tell me I only comprehend Nets basketball, yet try to challenge me on something I know very well. Vince deferred to RJ by letting him take more shots. The Nets offense was predicated on Vince and RJ isos, how the **** does Kidd fit into that situation? Let me make my earlier point clear again, since you obviously missed. RJ had his best statistical season to date, playing with Vince. Vince deferred, RJ's FGA attempts went up, hence why he averaged 20ppg. Dude, RJ is on record saying the same. Dont talk about what you dont know.



> He never does. The only reason Harris outperformed him last year was because Harris dominated the ball much more than Kidd.


Again man, I watch these games and I am quite sure you dont. So either you are the one predicating your opinions on stat sheets and 2k results, or you are just making up stuff. Devin, Frank are all on record that Vince deferred to Devin to give him the shine. He's an unselfish player.



> Because it gives you an accurate reflection of how he's performing lately. Why should I give a **** about his percentages from 8 or 9 years ago? That doesn't tell me anything. Using career stats only gives you an excuse to say 'well he can bounce back to this form', or 'look how good he is at his best!'.


35% and 36% are different. In 3pt percentage terms, that one percent difference is a lot. Also barely decent and isn't reliable are two completely different things. Also, VC averaged 38% last season, going by your 'performing lately' statement, shouldn't that tell you the man can still shoot quite well from the perimeter, and then you put him on a team where open looks are guaranteed and you doubt he can't replicate that? Lol.

Dude, once again, Frank has utilized Vince at the point forward position numerous times because they know the guy is a pretty good play maker. At some point he and Kidd were stringing together back to back triple doubles, thats a testament to how good they both were wracking up assists. His court vision is pretty darn good. I dont even know why I keep trying to explain this stuff, when you will take this as some homer defense of the guy. You are too stubborn to acknowledge when you are wrong.

Not even going to get into it with you on the Meer thing. Does he look like he wont recover from his injury? 



> The answer is yes.
> 
> Now I'll ask you, do you comprehend anything other than Nets ball?


Dude, I can go on any forum on this site, NBA and college forums for that matter and talk about any team and their players. Can the same be said about you? Have you ever been in a college ball forum? Lol at this dude telling me do I comprehend anything else than Nets ball? No sir!!!! :whiteflag:


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Blue Magic said:


> Lol, typical of you to blatantly miss the point. The moral of the story is, the mere collections of individual parts or pieces, isnt a reflection of the greatness of a _team_. Or as the great Aritotle once said, 'the whole(meaning a complete team) is greater than(meaning more significant than) the sum(meaning the comparing of individual parts)'.


No ****, and 'synergy' is the world you're looking for. The Celtics have established themselves as a cohesive team unit with Garnett. There is no question to how he fits in. Whether you like it or not, there are big questions as to how Vince Carter fits into this system, and there's a lot of evidence that he doesn't.



> You seem to not grasp that Alston and Battie were NOT major players for Orlando to give up. They're only major players in your own mind. They wouldnt be contributing much this yr unless there was some kind of emergancy or significant injury(we'll cross that bridge again when it comes if we have to).


Battie is hardly what I'm even talking about. 



> Ur so funny


Learn to spell.



> Jameer plays better when he's not looking over his shoulder. Alston was a luxury, not a necessity and Jameer was putting up great #'s when he was the undisputed guy.


So essentially, Nelson folds under pressure?



> We dont need any drama from Alston, not to mention his $6mil salary..... I dont know if you realized, but it was almost inevitable that Alston was gonna be traded... Not a shocker. Meer + VC is eons better than Alston + Lee. Easy decision.


Jameer and Carter are completely isolated cases. The only thing I've doubted about Nelson is his ability to bounce back instantly. 

The real question here is, is Alston + Lee + Turkoglu (he ties right into the Vince scenario, since his contract situation dictated the team's rite of action) an inferior package to Carter? Try to project next year's Lee when thinking about this, since I've already described about how he's ahead of most rookies in this league in the fact that he plays competently on both ends of the floor.

Taking all that into account, I'll take the former three. Over Carter, and Anderson.



> 3 quality players, two of which were gonna be irrelevent this season barring a catastrophic injury(knock wood). You seem to think Battie and Alston were gonna be featured players.... they weren't. We dont need Skip eating into to Meers minutes when he was thriving last yr w/o Skip. I wouldnt mind an upgrade over AJ, but dumping that $6mil salary for Skip isnt quite a panic move, its a reasonable decision.


STOP ****ING MENTIONING BATTIE, HE ISN'T THE SUBJECT OF MY ****ING ARGUMENT. HE ISN'T EVEN WHO I WAS REFERRING TO IN THAT SECTION OF THE POST? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?



> You're in over your head, young Jacob. Just fall back.


lol

_Definitely_ Jizzy's alter-ego. Right down to the ****** swag, embarrassing grammar/spelling, and 'every move is a great move my team is teh bestest!!!!' delusion. I should assign names of now-missing NeTS kiddies to IDOY and Duck as well, since the three of you are carbon copies of any of the prototypical random clowns I'm referring to.



> I didnt say it was outlandish. Only thing outlandish about it was _you_ dismissing Orlando as essentially not standing a chance and logically falling in defeat. You can never give the other side a little credit, it's always an excuse, 'ifs', and hypotheticals. Just give Orlando a _little_ credit. Just try it. It wont kill you.


This is ****ing unreal. You're begging for credit out of me? Am I rattling you that much?

If we're predicting the following season, HOW CAN WE ****ING NOT USE IFS? ITS THE ****ING *FUTURE*, GENIUS.



> Wow, ok. Go back to the beggining of the Boston-Orlando series thread before the series even started and tell how biased I am/was. Ive _been_ giving your team credit and your too stupid to realize it cuase you get soo uptide when I defend my own team.


O YES, LETS TRAED KREDITZ!!! I SUK UR TEEMS KOK, U SUK MAI TEEMS KOK!!! WIN-WIN!!!



> Then, I become some unrealistic homer because I dont bow down to KG's Celtice.


I love it. You do the exact same things you chastise me for doing.

What the hell is a Celtice? A necklace from Ireland?



> No, I said it would be a good battle im just saying that my team wouldve had a legit chance at it either way. You only see things from one side, though. You're side. Ive been giving your team credit, which is something I cant say you've done for Orlando....


Ah, the victim ploy, followed by more GIVE ME CREDIT I GAVE YOU CREDIT idiocy.



> I guess me saying Sheed is a good pickup for Boston is me being ill-reasoned. What was I thinking. $6mil for a 35yr old broken down has-been to stand in a corner and launch 3's?? Fit's right in with your AARP squad up there. Better?


A horrible attempt at mockery, as expected. Give up, you're starting to bore me.



King Joseus said:


> The Magic failed to win the NBA Championship this past season. Their GM decided that the team needed to change if they wanted to win the title this next season, so he made moves that he thinks will do just that. Are they guaranteed to work out as planned? No. Is it possible that it works out swimmingly? Sure.


Does this not qualify as panic?



Blue Magic said:


> Does Paul Pierce create a mismatch at the SF and PF position? VC is no worse than Pierce. Shard is no worse of a player than Ray Allen at this stage(Both mostly a threat as spot up shooters). KG>Bass. Dwight>Perk. Ill say Meer=Rondo. Who has the better bench? MP,Gortat,JJ, Anderson vs Sheed,House,Scal,Baby?.... These teams arent that far apart.... And just because Vince isnt 6'10, doesnt mean he'll be easier to stop. Dont be silly. :naughty:


What the **** does Pierce have anything to do with this? Why do you continue to bring piles of more irrelevant junk into the thread in every post? And he is better than Vince Carter, though I expect blasting from both NeTS people and magiks fans for my continued homerism.

Rondo is a better player than Nelson. He had a noticably better assist average than Nelson despite having less offensive targets, even with KG in the lineup, and is twice the defender Nelson is.



23AJ said:


> The Magic have plenty of insurance via flexibility with their roster. You seem to be the only one missing this crucial point THAT SEEMS OBVIOUS!! If they need another PG down the road, they have the ability to get one.


Yes they will, and you put on a fine display of 'missing the point' here, yourself.



> Let me ask you a question, Did you even watch the damn finals ?? How many games did Rafer throw up duds in the Finals? Quite a few games if I recall correctly. Rafer Alston aka Skip To My Lou is filler, and so was Battie, the only guy worth squat the Nets got in the deal was Lee. And I've already conveyed to you my feelings on Lee. Carter/Anderson was a huge win win for the Magic in that deal.


Alston was tempted to shoot more because Derek Fisher was guarding him. He just failed to put it in the hole. ****ty shooting performances happen.

A 5 game stretch is also an effective way to filter a player's true output, I hear.



> I have no idea what offer Orlando was willing to give Hedo, but Hedo went else where for a lot of bones and a different scene. Good for him.


He had no choice, since they traded for Carter before the FA negotiating period even began.

Show me the source saying that Hedo had zero intention of staying in Orlando.



> Just like good for Trevor Ariza. Are we going to hear you talk about a complete over haul of the Lakers if Odom goes else where ?? Since LA will have lost two of their starters on their Championship team ? I sincerely hope not. Ugh.


Would that irritate you? I believe you're on the record as Kobe Bryant being your favorite player, and I can infer from the statement you just made that you're a Laker fanboy by extension.

I will say that losing Odom would not be a good thing for L.A. It would bring them to a tie with San Antonio for best in the west.



> The Magic didn't give up two starters, IMO.


Lee and Turkoglu were in fact bench players? Fascinating.



> Lee became a starter by default do to injury,


He never relinquished the job thereafter. 



> WHO CARES what his age is, it's the merit of his basketball skills that matter. Am I debating with an ageism guy on my hand, that reads more into a birth certificate than a players actual abilities. God I hope not!!


What the **** are you even talking about? Age and basketball skills do have a correlation, buddy. Well, not for Vince, because he's immortal!!



> Who cares about two years from now, last year the Magic were in the Finals. Obviously they want to go back this up coming season, and the next season,


They could have anyway.



> and as time goes by they may have to Gasp! retool like most teams in the NBA do.


Something they wouldn't have had to do had they kept Lee and Turkoglu on.



> Vince Carter can help propel this team quite possibly in the now.


A 32 year old wing player who is wrongfully looped in with the Pierces and JJs of the world will propel them to the heavens, at the expense of two of the starters on that finals team? What a nice fantasy world you people live in. I wish I was this detached.



> No fan want's to wait for tomorrow. As a Boston Celtics fan you should be the first to understand that.


Al Jefferson was the only thing of value we gave up in either of those trades, and he isn't near as good a defensive presence as KG.

In other words, we didn't sacrifice current good players for these guys. We sacrificed prospects. There is a difference here.



> Your opinion of Hedo is great, Hedo had some very nice games in the playoffs, he was a good play maker, and hit some big shots, but Hedo also floundered in the playoffs at times. You keep judging how the Magic will play with out Hedo, but you don't have the slightest clue. I believe in Stan Van Gundy, dude is a great coach who could out work anybody in this forum about basketball and x's and o's. So why not reserve judgement and see what kind of game plan Van gundy put's together, and see how well this team plays, before predicting such and such like your the next coming of Nostradamus.


Isn't SVG the guy who was under flaming criticism from his players at times last season?

You basically just admitted that he'll have to alter the game plan, detrimental to Orlando, since he'll just give Vince a bunch of iso plays that clog the offense and put all their other weapons to lesser use.



> It's not a strawman purposefully, it's the way you paint the picture with words that comes across when you discuss Hedo/Carters defense.


I haven't once mentioned Hedo's defense. He isn't a good defender. Vince is a better defender, but that doesn't him a good defender either, because he isn't. That should clear it up.



> And IMO you make them sound like scrubs compared to Lee, which is the furthest thing from the truth.


Probably because I never once said that.



> However I'm sure will both have to agree to disagree on this point of contention.


Uh huh. 



> They went to the Finals, and lost. The GM is doing his job, in hopes to help the Magic by bringing in players that may help them get back to the Finals, but WIN!


No, he's panicking. The team was fine as constructed. They haven't shown a reluctancy to go into hyper-spend mode, so I don't what the issue would have been with just re-signing Hedo.



> New Jersey will compete much like they did last season, in the bottom of the Eastern Conference cellar.


34 wins is hardly the cellar. It was light years ahead of everyone else's predictions about them, including mine. 



> I'm not sure what Van Gundy is going to do, and what kind of game plan/system this team will insert next season, but one thing is damn certain, I'm not going to pretend the Magic don't have an ample team that is very talented who can cause hell on the rest of the league, because they sure do, and are very capable with the team presently constituted to win it all. Only time will tell, and that's why I'm a league pass subscriber the past 5 years, it gives you great insight on how all the teams around the league are coming together. I highly recommended it.


Babble.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

The Magic landed C.J. Watson as well? Dang, that's a solid pickup IMO. Come playoff time I wouldn't be shocked to see him getting the minutes instead of Anthony Johnson.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

HB said:


> Whats your beef with PER Jacoby? Too complex to understand?


PER takes the following into consideration: + for field goals, free throw %, assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks, - for missed field goals, fouls, and turnovers. For something that is revered by everyone as the be-all end-all definitive player measuring statistical Allah, it sure has a lot of holes and variables.

In other words, its misleading information. It entirely ignores a player's defensive abilities outside of steals and blocks, which in itself can make a player look significantly better or worse on defense than they really are (see, Marcus Camby). Defense is a *huge* part of the game.

Also notice how 3 pointers are measured into this. Why the **** would 3's have a place in something meant to measure *all players*? There aren't that many big men in this league who can shoot 3's, and the ones that can tend to be subpar inside players/defenders/rebounders. So an entire class of players gets undue value taken away (or given, in some instances).

Ball dominating players, mostly point guards, will usually have a higher turnover total than those off the ball. Again, why should something like this be measured in one linear way for all players, when basketball is not equal-oppurtunity?

That register to you, or need I go further?



> What does Hedo do better than Vince? Can you back it up with something other than your opinion? I am thinking the answer is no.


Turkoglu's assist numbers are better.

Over the past 4 years, he's been a much better three point shooter than Carter.



> Lol @ paltry basketball knowledge. Says the basketball guru. The guy's been on and off all season, shows up in the finals and he's somehow the savior of Magic basketball.


Strawman, he was an excellent fit to Magic basketball, because of the system.



> Vince has been one of the premier scorers in the game, even in his off seasons.


The Magic have scoring, Vince isn't a role player, Hedo was, the Magic need role players who can score, etc etc, for the millionth time...



> Zach Randolph, has been one of the very few bigs in the game to average 20/10 in the league.


*HE IS A BLACK HOLE ON THE OFFENSIVE END. EVERY TEAM HE HAS EVER PLAYED A LEAD PART ON ENDS UP BEING A ****ING EMBARRASSMENT TO BASKETBALL. HE'S A SELFISH PLAYER. HIS POINT TOTALS ARE A DIRECT PRODUCT OF HIS SELFISHNESS. HE IS AN ABOMINATION OF THE DEFENSIVE END.*
I have told you numerous times, and you dont get it. Stop with the personal attacks. Keep it up dude, you are walking a fine line here. You are one of the only people in the world who is unable to compute this, for some reason.



> I never made any out to be what they are not.


No, you just look at select, limited information and discard the rest, knowing full well it contradicts you horribly.



> You might not like arguments, because you know its true.


What's true? That rumor that I crack up at your hilarious attempts at talking basketball is very true, but I doubt you were referring to that.



> So you try your childish little lets try and mock the poster acts. Its even more hilarious you try to pass yourself as some basketball guru, when you cant even get the simple point that the Magic have positioned themselves in a better position to bring in more talent. Guess that part hasn't clicked in yet.


Now you're doing the exact same thing you constantly accuse me of, which is state an opinion as fact, and then say 'understand this'. So a flaming hypocrite on top of being mis-informed and a failure at grammar/spelling/English in general.

What else can I write you down for, while we're at it?



> What in the world are you talking about? You keep bringing up his performance like he lit the Lakers up.


I do, or is this yet another exaggeration ploy?



> The reason the Magic lost was because their long shots were falling and they couldn't get anyone who could create reliable offense.
> 
> Hedo and co. couldn't even get into the lane, and once again without the pick and roll dude is pretty much useless. Hey, you are the basketball guru, shouldn't you have picked up on that. Since you know so much about basketball, maybe you can explain to me why the Magic lost that series.


Fail.

Their three main outside shooters - Turkoglu, Lewis, Redick - all shot 40% or higher from three in that series. So they were not the problem.



> Whoopeee!!! He scored 12. Guess he wasn't shut down after all lol. How about struggled? Is that a better term?


He averaged 16 for the season and averaged 12 for the series. Interpret as you undoubtedly will.



> Lol, talk about grasping at straws. RJ was a Kidd product earlier in the 2000s, but once he developed his jumper, he started relying on his own skills a lot more. How did Kidd make him a better jump shooter? Maybe he helped guide the ball into the rim.


Strawman.



> *That Kidd, such a miracle worker*. You tell me I only comprehend Nets basketball, yet try to challenge me on something I know very well.


So playing with a good point guard has no effect on the players around him, is what you're projecting?



> Vince deferred to RJ by letting him take more shots. The Nets offense was predicated on Vince and RJ isos, how the **** does Kidd fit into that situation?


Who's delivering the ball to them in a hopefully-ideal spot to execute said isos?



> Let me make my earlier point clear again, since you obviously missed. RJ had his best statistical season to date, playing with Vince. Vince deferred, RJ's FGA attempts went up, hence why he averaged 20ppg. Dude, RJ is on record saying the same. Dont talk about what you dont know.


So Vincey was still the dominant ball carrier; he just let RJ have a couple more shots. Gotcha. Vince is such a saint for that.



> Again man, I watch these games and I am quite sure you dont. So either you are the one predicating your opinions on stat sheets and 2k results, or you are just making up stuff. Devin, Frank are all on record that Vince deferred to Devin to give him the shine. He's an unselfish player.


Again, YES network bull****.



> 35% and 36% are different. In 3pt percentage terms, that one percent difference is a lot. Also barely decent and isn't reliable are two completely different things.


I get it. 35% percent, when it goes against you, isn't that good, but 36% percent, when it works for you, is astronomically awesome.

Barely decent and isn't reliable are essentially parallel. Their technical meanings are different, but their real value is the same or similar.



> Also, VC averaged 38% last season, going by your 'performing lately' statement, shouldn't that tell you the man can still shoot quite well from the perimeter, and then you put him on a team where open looks are guaranteed and you doubt he can't replicate that? Lol.


Just curious, do you have a brain inside your head? When you have a single season showing that the player shot 38% and three other seasons surrounding it where he shot 35%, you don't think the 38% might be a little flukey? 

Of course you don't, he's VINCE!!



> Dude, once again, Frank has utilized Vince at the point forward position numerous times because they know the guy is a pretty good play maker


The fact that Kidd can't play 48 minutes a game at his age and the Nets never had a decent backup point guard might have a little bit to do with that.



> At some point he and Kidd were stringing together back to back triple doubles, thats a testament to how good they both were wracking up assists. His court vision is pretty darn good.


Okay.

This dates right back to my somewhat-sensical shpeal about how players with the ball in their hands 90% of the time are more likely to make more passes and rack up more assists as a result.



> I dont even know why I keep trying to explain this stuff, when you will take this as some homer defense of the guy. You are too stubborn to acknowledge when you are wrong.


Pot meet kettle.



> Not even going to get into it with you on the Meer thing. Does he look like he wont recover from his injury?


Is it a certainty?



> Dude, I can go on any forum on this site, NBA and college forums for that matter and talk about any team and their players.


And do a mostly terrible job at it.



> Can the same be said about you? Have you ever been in a college ball forum? Lol at this dude telling me do I comprehend anything else than Nets ball? No sir!!!! :whiteflag:


I bounce to the team forums that have activity, when I feel like it and something in there is of interest to me. I don't follow college basketball.

HB tries and falls flat on his face. Again. And again.


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

GregOden said:


> The Magic landed C.J. Watson as well? Dang, that's a solid pickup IMO. Come playoff time I wouldn't be shocked to see him getting the minutes instead of Anthony Johnson.


C.J. is the next Meer, d00d.


----------



## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> C.J. is the next Meer, d00d.


Is this sarcasm?

C.J. Watson has good quickness, great speed, and real good length (6 foot 6 wingspan). 

He averaged 1.2 steals in his 24.5 minutes per game last season. Not to mention he shot what, 40% from the three point line? He's a solid, young, athletic PG who doesn't turn the ball over too much.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> No ****, and 'synergy' is the world you're looking for. The Celtics have established themselves as a cohesive team unit with Garnett. There is no question to how he fits in. Whether you like it or not, there are big questions as to how Vince Carter fits into this system, and there's a lot of evidence that he doesn't.


I was referring to this past postseason where you said a healthy Boston logically wouldve beat us. Not what will happen this season....



> Battie is hardly what I'm even talking about.


 You feel the urge to keep mentioning how we lost 4 rotation players. If I dont cover him you would say im dodging your arguments and lack comprehension. Just covering every last minute detial.



> Learn to spell.


:greatjob: 



> So essentially, Nelson folds under pressure?


No essentially he needs consistent minutes, not a two PG system.



> Jameer and Carter are completely isolated cases. The only thing I've doubted about Nelson is his ability to bounce back instantly.


Just telling you y Alston was dumped.



> The real question here is, is Alston + Lee + Turkoglu (he ties right into the Vince scenario, since his contract situation dictated the team's rite of action) an inferior package to Carter? Try to project next year's Lee when thinking about this, since I've already described about how he's ahead of most rookies in this league in the fact that he plays competently on both ends of the floor.
> 
> Taking all that into account, I'll take the former three. Over Carter, and Anderson.


Fair enough. But if your gonna tie all of the offseason losses together like that, then you also need to tie in all of the off-season acquisitions together. Carter + Anderson + Bass & now maybe CJ Watson.... 

Considering that our team had a better winning % under Jameer, losing Alston isnt as big of a loss as I feel your making it out be. Sure he wouldve been a good back-up and insurance policy, but assuming everyone's healthy, he was expendable. Especially for that price.



> STOP ****ING MENTIONING BATTIE, HE ISN'T THE SUBJECT OF MY ****ING ARGUMENT. HE ISN'T EVEN WHO I WAS REFERRING TO IN THAT SECTION OF THE POST? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?


Settle down, bud. You're the ****ing tight wad who flips out when someone doesnt go over every minute detail behind why they hold a certain opinion. You we keep bringing it up and tell me how I lack comprehension. Ive been over that played out routine w/ you already, so covering all the bases. You brought up numerous times the fact that Orlando lost *4* rotation players as a reason for why you think we are 'panicking'. If I didnt go over it, you would still be saying that. Im just saying that two of those 4, Alston and Battie, would be playing limited roles and would be making over $12dollars. That's a relevant issue. We've gotten better players for better value. As you can see, it looks like CJ Watson may be on his way to Orlando. You like to talk about 'fits'. His game 'fits' our system better than Rafer.



> lol
> 
> _Definitely_ Jizzy's alter-ego. Right down to the ****** swag, embarrassing grammar/spelling, and 'every move is a great move my team is teh bestest!!!!' delusion. I should assign names of now-missing NeTS kiddies to IDOY and Duck as well, since the three of you are carbon copies of any of the prototypical random clowns I'm referring to.


Butt im A Hi Skool Grajuit? Aw maen



> This is ****ing unreal. You're begging for credit out of me? Am I rattling you that much?


No, it's just that i have never seen you give Orlando any kind of credit. Every move is horrific. I can acknowledge when Boston or Cleveland, two rivals, pick up a good piece. But somehow I get the label of a delusional homer for defending my own team? Ridiculous. 



> If we're predicting the following season, HOW CAN WE ****ING NOT USE IFS? ITS THE ****ING *FUTURE*, GENIUS.


 Once again, Im talking about your claims that Boston _wouldve_ beat us this postseason w/ both teams healthy. Not what will happen in the future...



> O YES, LETS TRAED KREDITZ!!! I SUK UR TEEMS KOK, U SUK MAI TEEMS KOK!!! WIN-WIN!!!


 You guys are painting me out as this ill-logical homer. I was giving Boston more of a chance than most of the Boston fans were in that thread, and this was before the series started. Im saying you gotta do the same to Orlando, but just realize that your calling me a homer when ive givin your team plaenty of respect. But like I said, you guys want to paint me out as the delusional homer because I dont bow down to the fact that a healthy Boston squad wouldve logically beat a healthy Orlando squad. You dont want to give Orlando an ounce of respect. That's the reality. 



> I love it. You do the exact same things you chastise me for doing.
> 
> What the hell is a Celtice? A necklace from Ireland?


Difference between me and you is you have no respect for your opponent. Anyone is delusion to think that their team would have a chance against your's. We've already had this conversation, you'll then proceed to enlighten us on how your opinions are essentially logical truths. 



> Ah, the victim ploy, followed by more GIVE ME CREDIT I GAVE YOU CREDIT idiocy.


Not at all. Im just saying dont take my words and then call me an unrealistic homer, when I have been realistic throughout and have been saying the same things since before that series even started. I have actually given your team tons of respect and you've given mine none. For you and your buddies to claim that im this unreasonable homer is hypocritical and has no basis. 





> What the **** does Pierce have anything to do with this? Why do you continue to bring piles of more irrelevant junk into the thread in every post? And he is better than Vince Carter, though I expect blasting from both NeTS people and magiks fans for my continued homerism.


I brought up Pierce because it was just as irrelevent as him bringing up Vince in that situation. The fact this Vince doesnt create a mis-match at PF is relevant?? That point that he made, makes absolutely no sense.... Hedo didnt play PF, Pierce doesnt play PF. Wtf does Vince need to play PF??? Shard plays PF and Vince can still play the SF position and do every thing Hedo could w/in the pick&roll offense. So what if he isn't 6'10". Michael Jordan wasnt 6'10, Kobe Bryant isnt 6'10, I would take them over Hedo at SF every time for our offense.... A player doesnt have to be 6'10" to be effective in this system. Vince Carter is the better player. Period. He's a better & more consistent scorer, which is will make everything easier for the rest of the team.



> *Rondo is a better player than Nelson.* He had a noticably better assist average than Nelson despite having less offensive targets, even with KG in the lineup, and is twice the defender Nelson is.


At basketball?? Lol, he may be a better athlete but better player is a reach. It's a push at best. Even the NBA coaches voted Jameer as the better player this season. Jameer is the much more reliable floor leader, but maybe if Rondo could learn how to hit an open jumpshot you may have a case.


----------



## thaKEAF (Mar 8, 2004)

Basketball is serious business.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Calm this down and keep it about basketball or it's gonna be cut short. First and final warning.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> *HE IS A BLACK HOLE ON THE OFFENSIVE END. EVERY TEAM HE HAS EVER PLAYED A LEAD PART ON ENDS UP BEING A ****ING EMBARRASSMENT TO BASKETBALL. HE'S A SELFISH PLAYER. HIS POINT TOTALS ARE A DIRECT PRODUCT OF HIS SELFISHNESS. HE IS AN ABOMINATION OF THE DEFENSIVE END.*


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> PER takes the following into consideration: + for field goals, free throw %, assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks, - for missed field goals, fouls, and turnovers. For something that is revered by everyone as the be-all end-all definitive player measuring statistical Allah, it sure has a lot of holes and variables.
> 
> In other words, its misleading information. It entirely ignores a player's defensive abilities outside of steals and blocks, which in itself can make a player look significantly better or worse on defense than they really are (see, Marcus Camby). Defense is a *huge* part of the game.
> 
> ...


It measures offensive efficiency, that would indicate to you that defense isn't included no? Hollinger has said numerous times its not the alpha and omega of basketball stats, but it does a darn good job of showing how efficient a player is on the court. Its more reliable than say following the opinions of guys with inflated egos of their basketball knowledge on a basketball forum.

In regards to the 3pt part, guys like Dwight, Shaq, Duncan and Yao are top 20 in PER, obviously their inability to shoot 3's has been taken into consideration.



> Turkoglu's assist numbers are better.
> 
> Over the past 4 years, he's been a much better three point shooter than Carter.


Career apg VC 4.3a Hedo 2.7 

Of course Turkoglu has been the better shooter in the last 4 years, he's played on teams with legit post presence, heck he's played on vastly superior teams meaning the coverage he gets from defenses is more favorable. Vince has always been the focus of opposing teams' defenses.



> The Magic have scoring, Vince isn't a role player, Hedo was, the Magic need role players who can score, etc etc, for the millionth time...


No dude, and everyone keeps telling you, but you choose to ignore it. The magic need someone who can create his offense come crunch time. Someone who doesnt need pick and roll to get a shot off and someone whose offense consists more of shooting a long jumper and the pump and fake.




> *HE IS A BLACK HOLE ON THE OFFENSIVE END. EVERY TEAM HE HAS EVER PLAYED A LEAD PART ON ENDS UP BEING A ****ING EMBARRASSMENT TO BASKETBALL. HE'S A SELFISH PLAYER. HIS POINT TOTALS ARE A DIRECT PRODUCT OF HIS SELFISHNESS. HE IS AN ABOMINATION OF THE DEFENSIVE END.*
> I have told you numerous times, and you dont get it. Stop with the personal attacks. Keep it up dude, you are walking a fine line here. You are one of the only people in the world who is unable to compute this, for some reason.


Dude we've been over this a million times. He's never played on good teams for that matter. The one time he played on the Blazers team that got to the finals, management blew up the team the very next season. Sure he's not a perfect player, but he's far from the reason his teams have sucked. None of those teams were playoff ready.


> No, you just look at select, limited information and discard the rest, knowing full well it contradicts you horribly.


Lol @ Pot calling kettle black.





> Now you're doing the exact same thing you constantly accuse me of, which is state an opinion as fact, and then say 'understand this'. So a flaming hypocrite on top of being mis-informed and a failure at grammar/spelling/English in general.
> 
> What else can I write you down for, while we're at it?


Look man, you are pretty much arguing with 4 or 5 guys and I dont see anyone else agreeing with your points. So either you know something we dont, or you are just wasting everyone's time. Now considering 4 out of those 5 guys watch a ton of Magic basketball, I'd expect them to know a great deal more about their team than a Celtics fan no?




> Their three main outside shooters - Turkoglu, Lewis, Redick - all shot 40% or higher from three in that series. So they were not the problem.


So what was the teams' problem in that series? Why did they lose? Why did they struggle to come up with offense when it mattered?



> So playing with a good point guard has no effect on the players around him, is what you're projecting?


Dude, RJ worked his butt off to get his offense to where it is now. Kidd's dangerous on the break, the Nets lacked respectable big men to be able to run. Most of RJ's points came in the half court, Kidd isn't great in the half court. I dont even know why I am trying to explain this, when Kidd, RJ and Vince are on record as to why RJ blossomed that season, and thats because Vince didnt have a problem with RJ being the man.



> Who's delivering the ball to them in a hopefully-ideal spot to execute said isos?


Lol are you serious? There's a reason why many said the Nets have the most predictable offense in the game. It was bring the ball up the court, wait for opposing defenses to settle and then give the ball to Vince or RJ on the wings, who then have to beat their man, or shoot over their man, and sometimes as in Vince' case, find an open man to score.



> So Vincey was still the dominant ball carrier; he just let RJ have a couple more shots. Gotcha. Vince is such a saint for that.


Sigh! I'd bring up the usage rate between the Nets big 3 when they were together to prove how wrong you are, but whats the point, you've already called it a flawed stat. 



> Again, YES network bull****.


I dont live in NJ, talk less get YES network. Why do you keep bringing it up?






> Just curious, do you have a brain inside your head? When you have a single season showing that the player shot 38% and three other seasons surrounding it where he shot 35%, you don't think the 38% might be a little flukey?
> 
> Of course you don't, he's VINCE!!


:laugh: But he's also had two seasons were he's shot over 40% from the perimeter, and a couple of 38% 3pt seasons. See this is the problem with this tough talk attitude you have going on here. You say a lot of ridiculous things ya know. Vince's going to a team where there's a legit post presence, and will be surrounded by the best offensive talent he's ever played with, how the heck isnt his perimeter shooting not supposed to benefit from that? Come on dude.




> The fact that Kidd can't play 48 minutes a game at his age and the Nets never had a decent backup point guard might have a little bit to do with that.


OR as most people who have watched the team have noticed, the second best natural passer on that team was Vince Carter.




> This dates right back to my somewhat-sensical shpeal about how players with the ball in their hands 90% of the time are more likely to make more passes and rack up more assists as a result.


Does this apply to PP too? A similar player





> I bounce to the team forums that have activity, when I feel like it and something in there is of interest to me. I don't follow college basketball.
> 
> HB tries and falls flat on his face. Again. And again.


I actually feel bad for making that response, my bad. I was drawn into your little tit for tat nonsense. I dont have to prove anything to you.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> C.J. is the next Meer, d00d.


How many ridiculous posts can one poster make?


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

> I have told you numerous times, and you dont get it. Stop with the personal attacks. Keep it up dude, you are walking a fine line here.


There was no personal attack here, for the record.


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

HB said:


> It measures offensive efficiency, that would indicate to you that defense isn't included no? Hollinger has said numerous times its not the alpha and omega of basketball stats, but it does a darn good job of showing how efficient a player is on the court. Its more reliable than say following the opinions of guys with inflated egos of their basketball knowledge on a basketball forum.


From basketball reference:

"The Player Efficiency Rating (PER) is a per-minute rating developed by ESPN.com columnist John Hollinger. In John's words, "The PER sums up all a player's positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player's performance." It appears from his books that John's database only goes back to the 1988-89 season. I decided to expand on John's work and calculate PER for all players since minutes played were first recorded (1951-52)."

That is the site's definition, and I don't see anything pertaining to exclusively offense.



> In regards to the 3pt part, guys like Dwight, Shaq, Duncan and Yao are top 20 in PER, obviously their inability to shoot 3's has been taken into consideration.


Really? How exactly? I'm eager to hear this.

Weren't you also one of those guys a few years back who blasted Hollinger (the creator of this stat) for not picking the Nets to win the division? I guess he's either a genius or an idiot, depending on the case.



> Career apg VC 4.3a Hedo 2.7


Again with the career stats...



> Of course Turkoglu has been the better shooter in the last 4 years, he's played on teams with legit post presence, heck he's played on vastly superior teams meaning the coverage he gets from defenses is more favorable. Vince has always been the focus of opposing teams' defenses.


You do realize that Turkoglu didn't develop as a starter caliber player until arriving in San Antonio, and that only upon arriving in Orlando was he even considered a main cog.



> No dude, and everyone keeps telling you, but you choose to ignore it. The magic need someone who can create his offense come crunch time. Someone who doesnt need pick and roll to get a shot off and someone whose offense consists more of shooting a long jumper and the pump and fake.


They did awfully well without one last season, and they also sacrificed two starters (one directly, one indirectly for those getting dizzy trying to figure that statement out) to get this player that was not a critical need.



> Dude we've been over this a million times. He's never played on good teams for that matter. The one time he played on the Blazers team that got to the finals, management blew up the team the very next season. Sure he's not a perfect player, but he's far from the reason his teams have sucked. None of those teams were playoff ready.


Something tells me that, whoever your NFL team is, you wouldn't object to them trading the farm for T.O.

Memphis completely hijacked their rebuilding with this acquisition. The ball will be in Randolph's hands far more than is good for any team, let alone this one. If it isn't, well then Randolph will just complain and **** up the chemistry in that locker room. Because Randolph will basically force his way into excessive playing time, it cuts into Marc Gasol's and Hasheem Thabeet's development. There's a reason this guy is never on a good team. He's a power forward. Normally you can build successful teams around power forwards like that... the ones that get 20 and 10. This guy has played with talent. Every year, his teams are out by late January.



> Look man, you are pretty much arguing with 4 or 5 guys and I dont see anyone else agreeing with your points. So either you know something we dont, or you are just wasting everyone's time. Now considering 4 out of those 5 guys watch a ton of Magic basketball, I'd expect them to know a great deal more about their team than a Celtics fan no?


I don't care. Being in the minority opinion doesn't make you wrong. From what I've seen in the past as far as NBA fan consensus opinion, and considering who exactly is questioning me on here... that makes me much more confident that I will be proven right.



> So what was the teams' problem in that series? Why did they lose? Why did they struggle to come up with offense when it mattered?


They were blown out in two of the games, so that makes your babble about iso-clutch offensive needs partially moot. They went 1-2 in games where this situation took place. In the Finals. Is this real reason to be alarmed?

Orlando was also outrebounded, particularly on the offensive boards, and they didn't force nearly enough turnovers, since LA averaged like 10 a game. 



> Dude, RJ worked his butt off to get his offense to where it is now. Kidd's dangerous on the break, the Nets lacked respectable big men to be able to run. Most of RJ's points came in the half court, Kidd isn't great in the half court. I dont even know why I am trying to explain this, when Kidd, RJ and Vince are on record as to why RJ blossomed that season, and thats because Vince didnt have a problem with RJ being the man.


Except RJ wasn't actually 'the man', considering he had a lesser ppg and didn't attempt as many shots (well except for 07-08, where Carter missed four games and probably would have been ahead of Jefferson otherwise, but I digress).



> Lol are you serious? There's a reason why many said the Nets have the most predictable offense in the game. It was bring the ball up the court, wait for opposing defenses to settle and then give the ball to Vince or RJ on the wings, who then have to beat their man, or shoot over their man, and sometimes as in Vince' case, find an open man to score.


Okay.



> Sigh! I'd bring up the usage rate between the Nets big 3 when they were together to prove how wrong you are, but whats the point, you've already called it a flawed stat.


Good.



> I dont live in NJ, talk less get YES network. Why do you keep bringing it up?


Because this is the exact bull**** you find on local broadcasts for the team in question.



> :laugh: But he's also had two seasons were he's shot over 40% from the perimeter, and a couple of 38% 3pt seasons.


See, this is why you have no credibility. All the seasons in question, with the exception of last year and the year he was traded midseason, were before he even joined New Jersey. And this is what you don't get. No sensible person, when discussing the present, gives a flying dick about what happened in 1999. Why should we? He did it ten years ago, whoopee. Players change, players develop, players regress. This is like me taking RJ's 9 ppg in his rookie year and trying to discredit him with it. Wouldn't that be stupid? This is no different.



> See this is the problem with this tough talk attitude you have going on here. You say a lot of ridiculous things ya know.


Does it anger you? Its the internet, its only words.

They're ridiculous to you because common opinion is usually wrong, and as I result I don't go with it, while you seem to.



> Vince's going to a team where there's a legit post presence, and will be surrounded by the best offensive talent he's ever played with, how the heck isnt his perimeter shooting not supposed to benefit from that? Come on dude.


Has seifer not ****ing explained the matchup advantage Orlando had and destroyed by acquiring Vince and moving Shard back to small forward? Refer to his posts.



> OR as most people who have watched the team have noticed, the second best natural passer on that team was Vince Carter.


A testament to the team.



> Does this apply to PP too? A similar player


Does that matter?


----------



## Stan Van Gundy (Jul 15, 2009)

HBwoy, who was that All-Star PF from Florida you were talking about? I'm drawing a blank.



GET BACK ON D! _OH MY GODDD_


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> From basketball reference:
> 
> "The Player Efficiency Rating (PER) is a per-minute rating developed by ESPN.com columnist John Hollinger. In John's words, "The PER sums up all a player's positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player's performance." It appears from his books that John's database only goes back to the 1988-89 season. I decided to expand on John's work and calculate PER for all players since minutes played were first recorded (1951-52)."
> 
> That is the site's definition, and I don't see anything pertaining to exclusively offense.





> PER largely measures offensive performance. Hollinger freely admits that two of the defensive statistics it incorporates -- blocks and steals -- can produce a distorted picture of a player's value and that PER is not a reliable measure of a player's defensive acumen. For example, Bruce Bowen, widely regarded as one of the best defenders in the NBA (at least through the 2006-07 season), has routinely posted single-digit PERs.
> 
> Bear in mind that this rating is not the final, once-and-for-all answer for a player's accomplishments during the season. This is especially true for players such as Bruce Bowen and Trenton Hassell who are defensive specialists but don't get many blocks or steals.
> 
> ...






> Really? How exactly? I'm eager to hear this.
> 
> Weren't you also one of those guys a few years back who blasted Hollinger (the creator of this stat) for not picking the Nets to win the division? I guess he's either a genius or an idiot, depending on the case.


Hollinger used to post on the Nets board as Treeman, and for some reason or the other he got pissed off with some of the posters. Ever since that incident, he started making ridiculous claims about the team, some right, some wrong, but it was clear in his posts after that incident that he didnt like the team. Lol actually in one of his chats, he mentioned how message board fans were overrating their team.





> Again with the career stats...
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize that Turkoglu didn't develop as a starter caliber player until arriving in San Antonio, and that only upon arriving in Orlando was he even considered a main cog.


He's still not a main cog, unless of course your definition of main cog is different from mine. He's not a guy you can reliably count on for offense night in, night out. P.S. Hedo never played for San Antonio. What's wrong with career stats? 


> They did awfully well without one last season, and they also sacrificed two starters (one directly, one indirectly for those getting dizzy trying to figure that statement out) to get this player that was not a critical need.


Mosty believed they over achieved. They werent heads and shoulders better than the Sixers, and they barely got by the Celts. The Lakers clearly outplayed them. If Brand or KG had played, the outcome probably would have been different. Would you still then expect the team not to make moves? Their opponents got better, should they stand pat? 




> Something tells me that, whoever your NFL team is, you wouldn't object to them trading the farm for T.O.
> 
> Memphis completely hijacked their rebuilding with this acquisition. The ball will be in Randolph's hands far more than is good for any team, let alone this one. If it isn't, well then Randolph will just complain and **** up the chemistry in that locker room. Because Randolph will basically force his way into excessive playing time, it cuts into Marc Gasol's and Hasheem Thabeet's development. There's a reason this guy is never on a good team. He's a power forward. Normally you can build successful teams around power forwards like that... the ones that get 20 and 10. This guy has played with talent. Every year, his teams are out by late January.


This is why we watch games no? Personally I am exhausted on the whole Z-bo thing, but I staunchly disagree on the talented teams part. Thats false. Those teams werent talented enough to make the playoffs.





> I don't care. Being in the minority opinion doesn't make you wrong. From what I've seen in the past as far as NBA fan consensus opinion, and considering who exactly is questioning me on here... that makes me much more confident that I will be proven right.


Lol



> They were blown out in two of the games, so that makes your babble about iso-clutch offensive needs partially moot. They went 1-2 in games where this situation took place. In the Finals. Is this real reason to be alarmed?


Sigh* if only I didn't watch games. There's no player on the Magic outside of Jameer and Alston that can create their own shot respectably. Every other player on that team needs some sort of crutch to get shots off. Their offense was predicated on long jumpers, and when thats not going down its lights out...EARLY!!!! I suggest you check out their FG% and 3pt% in the games they lost and the games they won. Vince brings a new dimension to that team because he can create his own shot and also get to the line. Lol @ that not being reason to be alarmed.



> Orlando was also outrebounded, particularly on the offensive boards, and they didn't force nearly enough turnovers, since LA averaged like 10 a game.


LA was the better defensive outfit, and when the other team's offense relies on taking long jumpers, of course it makes it easier to get long rebounds and quick transition buckets.


> Except RJ wasn't actually 'the man', considering he had a lesser ppg and didn't attempt as many shots (well except for 07-08, where Carter missed four games and probably would have been ahead of Jefferson otherwise, but I digress).


No one said RJ was the man, he just got the opportunity to shine on that team. Vince and RJ would still tell you that Kidd was 'the man' on that team.





> See, this is why you have no credibility. All the seasons in question, with the exception of last year and the year he was traded midseason, were before he even joined New Jersey. And this is what you don't get. No sensible person, when discussing the present, gives a flying dick about what happened in 1999. Why should we? He did it ten years ago, whoopee. Players change, players develop, players regress. This is like me taking RJ's 9 ppg in his rookie year and trying to discredit him with it. Wouldn't that be stupid? This is no different.


I actually agree with your point, but you still havent answered my question. On a team with a legit post presence and better offensive players, YES or NO, will Vince's perimeter shooting benefit from such?



> Does it anger you? Its the internet, its only words.


No not really, but I dont like blow hards. People should be able to get their points across without being condescending.



> They're ridiculous to you because common opinion is usually wrong, and as I result I don't go with it, while you seem to.


Lol



> Has seifer not ****ing explained the matchup advantage Orlando had and destroyed by acquiring Vince and moving Shard back to small forward? Refer to his posts.


Shard is not MOVING back to SF. 



> A testament to the team.


More like a testament to his skills



> Does that matter?


In your case, YES!



> HBwoy, who was that All-Star PF from Florida you were talking about? I'm drawing a blank.
> 
> 
> 
> GET BACK ON D! OH MY GODDD


He plays for the Suns.


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## eddymac (Jun 23, 2005)

HB Turk played for the Spurs in 2003/2004.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Oh my bad, I thought he was talking about Sacramento instead of the Spurs. I'd say he had better seasons with SAC.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> You do realize that Turkoglu didn't develop as a starter caliber player until arriving in San Antonio, and that only upon arriving in Orlando was he even considered a main cog.


You seem to be confused. Turk was never a starter or main cog anywhere until SVG made him a starter two yrs ago, and it really was because Stan had no other choice(due to G Hill bailing and Tony Battie injury). Turk was ALWAYS a career bench player/6th man/Journeyman. His first 3 yrs in Orlando, he was a 6th man. His success was a product of SVG's system, not the other way around..... He became the MIP his 1st yr under SVG and I dont think it was a mere coincidene(Stan knows what he's doing and how to maximize his guys). It's dumbfounding listining to people act like Turk was the primary catalyst behind Orlando's success. He was a solid player, but people are way overestimating his true value. Dwight is what drives us. Hedo, Jameer, Rashard are all complimentary pieces, not the foundation!(witness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbyKeIv766g) 

Committing 5yrs into a player that is 30 would have handicapped us even further than we already are. Turk's value would never have been higher than it was. He knew that, we knew that, and he wanted every last dollar he could get, and he got it. It's not worth handicapping 5yrs of Dwights prime for a player who peaked 2 seasons ago, and probably only has 2 good yrs left. The Magic went out and are spending that money on young talent and future assets as opposed to just one guy. Magic arent just making moves for the now, like Boston and Cleveland, we're making moves for the future as well. I dont know how many more times I can say this....



> They did awfully well without one last season, and they also sacrificed two starters (one directly, one indirectly for those getting dizzy trying to figure that statement out) to get this player that was not a critical need.


The offense stagnated when Hedo had the ball late and was unable to drive. He would just end up throwing up some crazy fallaway chuck shot. Sometimes it went in, sometimes not. Vince is a guy who can do alot more with the ball in his hands come crunch time and he is just the more consistent player in general. Just because we did well w/o a guy of Vince's calibre doesnt mean that Vince is incapable of fitting into the offense, or that he would be a detriment to the team..... You're acting like this is Murphy's Law and what can go wrong will go wrong. You're assuming the worst and are the typical pessimist/hater on all things Orlando Magic. You're acting like Vince Carter is gonna pull an A.I., when he has every reason to be happy about his situation.... He's gonna be the clear cut starter. He's playing where he grew up. He's playing on a contender. And he fills a need. He's happy, we're happy. You're the only stressing over the loss of ****ing Hedo Turkoglu. The system made Hedo Turkoglu. He was a CAREER 6TH MAN until SVG found a way to maximize his talent in this system. Similar to how he maximzed LO in his one yr in Miami(Odoms best yr in his career) along with a rookie Wade. He can find a way to maximize VC in our offense, just like he did w/ Hedo, Lee, Jameer and every one else. SVG is not an idiot.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I don't see the reason to knock on Alston. I thought he came in last year and did an admirable job filling in for Nelson. Had he been willing to play the backup PG position it would've been a big plus for the Magic. Heck, for all we know maybe the Nets really wanted him in the trade and there wasn't anyone else with similar value that the Magic could have offered. There is no telling how durable Nelson will be next year and if I'm SVG I'm not that comfortable going into next season with only Anthony Johnson and CJ Watson as my options. But who knows, maybe they can pull off another trade like the one they did to get Alston last year if something does happen to Nelson.

This is indeed the first time that VC has played with a true contender. As I've said in another thread at this point of his career he needs to do something if he wants to be remembered as something other than a dunk highlight film. People are going to talk about his ppg and assists and all that stuff but for me a player is defined by what he can do in the playoffs. VC's playoff resume, at least in the past couple of years have been anything but great. I'm talking only about VC's play and not his teammates. I felt that his own performance have been inconsistent in the playoffs in the past few years that he was in the playoffs. 

He is going to get another 2-3 chances to prove himself but for a 32 going on 33 player, time is definitely running out.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

seifer0406 said:


> I don't see the reason to knock on Alston. I thought he came in last year and did an admirable job filling in for Nelson. Had he been willing to play the backup PG position it would've been a big plus for the Magic. Heck, for all we know maybe the Nets really wanted him in the trade and there wasn't anyone else with similar value that the Magic could have offered. There is no telling how durable Nelson will be next year and if I'm SVG I'm not that comfortable going into next season with only Anthony Johnson and CJ Watson as my options. But who knows, maybe they can pull off another trade like the one they did to get Alston last year if something does happen to Nelson.
> 
> This is indeed the first time that VC has played with a true contender. As I've said in another thread at this point of his career he needs to do something if he wants to be remembered as something other than a dunk highlight film. People are going to talk about his ppg and assists and all that stuff but for me a player is defined by what he can do in the playoffs. VC's playoff resume, at least in the past couple of years have been anything but great. I'm talking only about VC's play and not his teammates. I felt that his own performance have been inconsistent in the playoffs in the past few years that he was in the playoffs.
> 
> He is going to get another 2-3 chances to prove himself but for a 32 going on 33 player, time is definitely running out.


Alston was ok, but a guy like CJ Watson is all we need. He is much more efficient and more of a perimeter weapon than Alston. Not to hate on Alston, but he was simply not a reliable shooter. Period. He was good in the sense that he could run the offense, but anyone guarding him could cheat off of him when he didnt have the ball, which made the game tougher for others. Jameer or Watson wont be the weak links on offense like Skip was... 










Boston was built around people who were deemed career 'losers', and they became winners. Just because Vince has been dubbed as a loser in the past, doesnt mean that he is destined to choke and cant be a vital part to a loaded team that needs his services.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

FYI, CJ Watson is a restricted free agent so the Magic are only signing him to an offer sheet. Also, the 3rd Quarter Collapse is reporting Lewis will almost definitely remain the starter at power forward with Pietrus moving into the starting lineup, not Bass.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

I don't really understand... no matter how I look at it, VC is an upgrade.

Hedo fits into Magic's system fine, but time and time again we've seen that he is unable to create his own shot. His fine performance has mostly been a product of the attention his center commands. He makes a couple of clutch shots this season and suddenly he's better than Vince Carter?

Carter is not known for his three point shooting, but a career shooting of .380 is not bad at all. Not to mention the fact that most of his threes were probably contested, which is something I cannot say the same for with Hedo. Also unlike most people think, he doesn't need the ball to be effective imo. Acquiring VC gives them a real scorer, someone who can create their own shot, the Magic need that. If VC doesn't work out, he'll just be someone who is willing to run the floor, shoot threes and make plays for other people. Sounds familiar to me...


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

briaN37 said:


> Hedo fits into Magic's system fine, but time and time again we've seen that he is unable to create his own shot. His fine performance has mostly been a product of the attention his center commands. He makes a couple of clutch shots this season and suddenly he's better than Vince Carter?


:whoknows:

Hedo was the only guy that can make his own shot after Jameer Nelson got injured. You can say that on some nights he couldn't hit those shots, but to say that he cannot create his own shot is just bogus. Not only did he create his own shot, he made shots for his teammates.

I don't think anyone here(or at least most people) is arguing that Turkoglu is better than VC. This thread is about the Magic team as a whole and so far the arguments have been fairly balanced on both sides. Looking at the poll, it also suggests that most people feel that Orlando at most made marginal improvements over last year's squad.

You can argue on and on about numbers but the bottom line is this game is about match ups. My opinion from the very start has been that Orlando has improved talent wise with VC, however from a match up standpoint they have become less of a head ache for other teams. On paper I have a hard time convincing myself that with a healthy KG Orlando will have much of a chance against the Celtics in a 7 game series especially when they had such a hard time last year against the KG-less Celtics. The Cavs have improved their chances against Orlando by acquiring Shaq and no longer have to rotate Lebron between Hedo and Lewis depending on whoever has the hot hand. 

Again, I don't fault Otis Smith for making a change. It would have been a tougher road next year even if they kept Hedo and guys like Alston and Lee. He did impress me last year for picking up guys like Pietrus and making the trade for Alston mid season, therefore I have a hunch that if the VC experiment doesn't prove to be a big success that he will have a backup plan as well.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

seifer0406 said:


> :whoknows:
> 
> Hedo was the only guy that can make his own shot after Jameer Nelson got injured. You can say that on some nights he couldn't hit those shots, but to say that he cannot create his own shot is just bogus. Not only did he create his own shot, he made shots for his teammates.
> 
> ...


The only team that suffered from this match up problem the Magic imposed with the Cleveland Cavs. The rest of the NBA could careless what five guy's the Magic put on the court. Heck a depleted Boston Celtics team nearly beat the Magic and their seemingly vaunted match up problems they gave teams. Not to mention the Lakers had zero problems handing the Magic their backsides in the Finals. 

Orlando Magic have to create a team that is better than last seasons, that's what their GM is trying to accomplish by adding guy's like Vince Carter, Brandon Bass, and Ryan Anderson. The Magic can't try to keep a certain match up strategy so they can beat one team in the NBA (Cleveland Cavs) , and the Magic should have confidence regardless of the team they put out on the floor this season that they are better than the Cavs, and even more importantly the Magic want to not only be better than the Cavs, but better than who ever comes out West regardless of the Match up advantages on paper or not.

That's the problem, a lot of people are having trouble envisioning the Magic being a better team with a more traditional line up. And I guess the comedy of all this, nearly all these same posters were calling the Magic a gimmick offense last season, who stood no chance of beating the likes of the Celtics or Cavs. Now suddenly that so called "gimmick offense" and match ups are the end all be all to the Magic's success this season.. You guy's cant have it both ways, and at this point should just reserve judgement until the season, and playoffs is over. 

As a Magic fan, I believe in Stand Van Gundy, and I believe he will infuse a great system for his team to thrive in. By making any necessary tweaks and guidelines. The Magic have improved, and will be fine next season IMO.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

hobojoe said:


> FYI, CJ Watson is a restricted free agent so the Magic are only signing him to an offer sheet. Also, the 3rd Quarter Collapse is reporting Lewis will almost definitely remain the starter at power forward with Pietrus moving into the starting lineup, not Bass.


True, G State can still retain CJ. He hasnt signed the offer sheet yet tho, so maybe a s&t of some sort is being worked out....

As far as Lewis, I dont see why he wouldn't start at the 3. It makes the most sense based on the moves that we've made. Our frontcourt is already 2 deep, and Rashard starting at the 4 would take minutes away from Bass and/or Gortat and Anderson would hardly play at all.



seifer0406 said:


> :whoknows:
> 
> Hedo was the only guy that can make his own shot after Jameer Nelson got injured. You can say that on some nights he couldn't hit those shots, but to say that he cannot create his own shot is just bogus. Not only did he create his own shot, he made shots for his teammates.
> 
> ...


As much as Hedo did for the Magic, you cant really say he was that consistent. When he is in the zone he's great(15-25% of the time) and when he's not, you'll be screaming at the TV wondering what the heck he's doing. Hedo was great in our system once Stan came in, but before Stan he was just a good player with abunch of off nights.

In Vince we're getting a more consistent player. He hit 17 more 3's then Hedo last year with 151 of 392 compared to Hedo's 134 of 376

Also Everyone talks about us missing Hedo's Assists. In the last 5 years stats are as follows:

Hedo Assists Total 1386
Vince Assists Total 1762

Difference of 376 assists. If we assume that those assists only lead to two point plays, thats 752 more points. Divide that by the past 5 seasons and that's an average of 150.4 points per season. Easily worth a couple additional wins. Food for thought, let's look at some simple #'s from last season:

Offensive efficiency:

Turk: USG%=23%; PER=14.8; ORtg=107
Carter: USG%=25.6%; PER=18.8; ORtg=111

Turk: eFG%=.478; TS%=.541; AST%=22.4; FTApg=5.1
Carter: eFG%=.494; TS%=.550; AST%=25.2; FTApg=5.6

We all love Hedo, but Vince will be a fantastic fit on this team. Carter is unselfish and knows that Howard will be the main guy for our offense. I kind of think that that Vince's talent speaks for itself, but his personality was never that of someone who really wanted or embraced the role of the main guy. In Orlando, he has the chance to be the second option and thrive next to Dwight Howard instead of having all the weight on his shoulders. With the pressure off of Carter(both from himself and opposing defenses) he could very well be an even more efficient player. I just dont see Carter is such is a terrible fit for the Magic. It just doesnt make sense to me how he is a worse fit than freakin Hedo.... I dont get it.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Here are some random thoughts that I have had on the subject

- Cleveland showed the ability to slow down Vince Carter when they met in the postseason in 2007; Carter looked worn out and tired from a long 82 game regular season. But he won't have to be the focal point of the team with Rashard Lewis and Dwight Howard. The key will be for Orlando to keep his minutes down so that they can save him in the postseason. Against Cleveland, it depends whether Carter can make the extra pass like Turkoglu- maybe Turkoglu 6'10 height gave him the courtvision to do so. Does Carter still have enough left in the tank? He'll be 33 next January.

- If Rashard Lewis starts at small forward, the Magic lose the all important mismatch. If Gortat or Bass starts, Orlando will not have 4 guys that spread the floor, which was a big part of their success against Boston. I'm also assuming that Lewis isn't quick enough laterally to stay in front most small forwards; I think guys all of these guys will burn him:

LeBron James
Paul Pierce
Caron Butler
Andre Iguodala/Thaddeus Young

Orlando is probably better by starting Pietrus or at least having him finish up games in crunch time. 

- I think the biggest reason that Boston lost to Orlando was that Rashard Lewis generally had his way against Glen Davis and the Celtics only had 1 reliable defender to guard Dwight Howard. If KG is healthy, he's probably the best guy you could put to defend Lewis and with Rasheed Wallace they have 3 capable guys that they can throw on Dwight Howard.

- At the same time Orlando won't be outclassed by Boston's backcourt. They get back Jameer Nelson who was about an equal talent to Rondo before his injury; although you have to wonder if it takes a while to get back to 100% Vince Carter and Ray Allen should be an interesting matchup.

- It will be basically up to Dwight Howard to become a better low post scorer AND passer.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

I think it all comes down to Gortat, Bass and Anderson hitting there jumpers consistently.

By the way, Carter will most like get 30 minutes a night with Pietrus backing him up so he should be fresh come playoffs. Also he won't be the main scoring option. The Magic have a ton of guys who can score around him.


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

Bass has a nice mid range jumper, why people think that only three point specialists can spread the flour? Everyone is saying that Orlando had success only because of the mismatches on the offensive end, but what about all those lost defensive rebounds or defensive mismatches when Rashard was killed in the post? yes, Orlando reached the finals but we were lucky Boston had so many injuries and Mike Brown is such a stupid coach.
I am praying SVG will go back to traditional lineup and moves Lewis back to SF position, he'll be able to guard most of his opponents and Howard with Bass would cover his lack of speed.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

f22egl said:


> Here are some random thoughts that I have had on the subject
> 
> - Cleveland showed the ability to slow down Vince Carter when they met in the postseason in 2007; Carter looked worn out and tired from a long 82 game regular season. But he won't have to be the focal point of the team with Rashard Lewis and Dwight Howard. The key will be for Orlando to keep his minutes down so that they can save him in the postseason. Against Cleveland, it depends whether Carter can make the extra pass like Turkoglu- maybe Turkoglu 6'10 height gave him the courtvision to do so. Does Carter still have enough left in the tank? He'll be 33 next January.
> 
> ...


The issue of where Rashard will start seems to still be up in the air. I really dont think it matters where he starts, as the Magic are soo flexible that we can easily move him around throughout the game and play him wherever he benifits us most. The moves we've made, to me, clearly suggest that Shard will be starting at the 3 tho(I may be wrong).

Ppl must have forgotten that Rashard was an All-star level player at the SF position. He's still 6'10 and presents entirely new matchup problems which he has feasted on for the majority of his career. He is quite easily the most skilled post player we have, but he could rarely use this part of his game against bigger 4's and was limited to camping at the 3pt line or taking them off dribble. When Dwight goes out, Rashard can now be our primary post option and take advantage of almost any and every SF in the post(see Philly, game 6). He's a natural SF and had his best yrs playing at this position. Of course the LBJs, Iggys, and Butlers of the world are gonna be tough for him to check, but so are the Pau's, the Duncans, and the KG's of the world. He's adequate eough to get by at the 4, but hes more of a 3. The only team where he was really a clear cut benifit to us at the 4 was against Cleveland. Against everyone else(Phi, Bos, LAL), him at the 4 isnt really that great of a problem for them. Like 23AJ said, you guys cant have it both ways. All last year, you criticize us for one thing, and when we fix that thing, you criticize us for changing it. It just doesnt add up and seems like people were going to find ways to question our moves regardless of what we did. It's clear that it's a lose-lose situation wherever Shard plays.


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## Stan Van Gundy (Jul 15, 2009)

So where would you rank Orlando's starting backcourt (assuming Nelson stays healthy) in Jameer Nelson and Vince Carter?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

23AJ said:


> The only team that suffered from this match up problem the Magic imposed with the Cleveland Cavs. The rest of the NBA could careless what five guy's the Magic put on the court. Heck a depleted Boston Celtics team nearly beat the Magic and their seemingly vaunted match up problems they gave teams. Not to mention the Lakers had zero problems handing the Magic their backsides in the Finals.


The Cavs and the Celtics are Orlando's main opposition in the East. As I have said already, Orlando is losing the main edge that they used to beat Cleveland. Whether Vince can counter that loss with his supposed superior play is questionable at best imo. As for the Celtics, even with Vince I don't see how they have a chance to beat Boston unless one of their big 3 gets injured. But then again those guys are getting up there in age, so I guess it is quite possible. On paper KG and Sheed will be all over Howard on defense, and Pierce and Ray Allen matches up with Lewis and Vince while Rondo has always been praised as a above average defender. 

As for Blue Magic's post, as I said, nobody (At least I wasn't) is arguing about whether Hedo is the better player than Vince. There is no point in going into all those numbers because everyone agrees that Vince is better statistically pretty much in every catagory. I have already stated in my previous posts of what Hedo does offer that Vince doesn't, and reading some of the above posts someone have also mentioned some of Vince's histories against some of the playoff teams. At the end of the day you can add up the numbers all you want but the majority of the time the end result isn't going to be the sum of all parts.

As for Rashard Lewis posting up other small forwards, again, it might work for some teams but for the teams that matter, it isn't going to be much of an advantage. I don't see him backing down Lebron or Paul Pierce especially with guys like Sheed and KG behind him. Whether he plays SF or PF his role will be pretty much be the same as last year, which is to knock down open shots. The only difference will be instead of Hedo or Howard creating those shots, it will be VC or Howard.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

seifer0406 said:


> The Cavs and the Celtics are Orlando's main opposition in the East. As I have said already, Orlando is losing the main edge that they used to beat Cleveland. Whether Vince can counter that loss with his supposed superior play is questionable at best imo. As for the Celtics, even with Vince I don't see how they have a chance to beat Boston unless one of their big 3 gets injured. But then again those guys are getting up there in age, so I guess it is quite possible. On paper KG and Sheed will be all over Howard on defense, and Pierce and Ray Allen matches up with Lewis and Vince while Rondo has always been praised as a above average defender.
> 
> As for Blue Magic's post, as I said, nobody (At least I wasn't) is arguing about whether Hedo is the better player than Vince. There is no point in going into all those numbers because everyone agrees that Vince is better statistically pretty much in every catagory. I have already stated in my previous posts of what Hedo does offer that Vince doesn't, and reading some of the above posts someone have also mentioned some of Vince's histories against some of the playoff teams. At the end of the day you can add up the numbers all you want but the majority of the time the end result isn't going to be the sum of all parts.
> 
> As for Rashard Lewis posting up other small forwards, again, it might work for some teams but for the teams that matter, it isn't going to be much of an advantage. I don't see him backing down Lebron or Paul Pierce especially with guys like Sheed and KG behind him. Whether he plays SF or PF his role will be pretty much be the same as last year, which is to knock down open shots. The only difference will be instead of Hedo or Howard creating those shots, it will be VC or Howard.


True, I know you said you dont think Hedo was better, but I recall alot of people saying that Hedo was the better fit since Vince will make us a completely different and unable to play the same way. The reasoning was because Vince isnt as good a passer, or he doesnt know how to defer, or whatever.... The numbers dont really confirm that POV tho... Vince has a higher AST%, lower Turn% and a higher USG rate, which when you put it all together indicates better decision making to me.... Combine that with his better scoring, and he should be just fine within the team. The only thing Hedo does better than Vince is growing to be 6'10", but he wasnt really a guy who took advantage of his size anyway. He was a perimeter shooter/slasher/psuedo playmaker, with not a great post game. VC brings all of that, so what is missing??

Matchup edge? I dont really agree with that. Other teams are making moves to adjust to what we brought. Cleveland is bringing in Moon to counter our small ball lineup where Bron can play the 4. They brought in Shaq to counter Dwight Howard. We cant just stand still and play the same exact way when other teams are making moves to counter that. They're not just gonna _not_ get better and continue to lose to us in the same ways, so we have to make moves as well. We can still play small ball if we want to, but we can now also matchup better with the bigger frontlines. Shard can always slide up to the 4, Anderson can also play Shards role at the 4. We can STILL play small ball, but we arent limited to only being effective in that way anymore. Bass, Gortat, and Anderson give us a little more muscle and length that we can throw at other teams next to Dwight.

As for Rashard, look at his 10 yrs in the league playing SF before he ever came here. He is an effective SF and can put up just as good if not better #'s playing there. The point with the post-ups was, it will be easier to post up the average SF than it was the average PF. Obviously Lebron can check him, but he is the only wing on Cleveland that can other than, maybe Moon now. But if their dumb coach still wants Lebron to guard the PG and roam, someones gonna be toast somewhere because Mo nor West can really check VC or Shard 1v1 they'll get posted up. Now the Magic can go with muscle(Bass & Gortat may get some mins at the 4) OR finesse(Anderson) in the post along with this, where in the last two yrs, our only post options outside of Dwight were finesse(Rashard, Battie was broken down).


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> True, I know you said you dont think Hedo was better, but I recall alot of people saying that Hedo was the better fit since Vince will make us a completely different and unable to play the same way. The reasoning was because Vince isnt as good a passer, or he doesnt know how to defer, or whatever.... The numbers dont really confirm that POV tho... Vince has a higher AST%, lower Turn% and a higher USG rate, which when you put it all together indicates better decision making to me.... Combine that with his better scoring, and he should be just fine within the team. The only thing Hedo does better than Vince is growing to be 6'10", but he wasnt really a guy who took advantage of his size anyway. He was a perimeter shooter/slasher/psuedo playmaker, with not a great post game. VC brings all of that, so what is missing??
> 
> Matchup edge? I dont really agree with that. Other teams are making moves to adjust to what we brought. Cleveland is bringing in Moon to counter our small ball lineup where Bron can play the 4. They brought in Shaq to counter Dwight Howard. We cant just stand still and play the same exact way when other teams are making moves to counter that. They're not just gonna _not_ get better and continue to lose to us in the same ways, so we have to make moves as well. We can still play small ball if we want to, but we can now also matchup better with the bigger frontlines. Shard can always slide up to the 4, Anderson can also play Shards role at the 4. We can STILL play small ball, but we arent limited to only being effective in that way anymore. Bass, Gortat, and Anderson give us a little more muscle and length that we can throw at other teams next to Dwight.
> 
> As for Rashard, look at his 10 yrs in the league playing SF before he ever came here. He is an effective SF and can put up just as good if not better #'s playing there. The point with the post-ups was, it will be easier to post up the average SF than it was the average PF. Obviously Lebron can check him, but he is the only wing on Cleveland that can other than, maybe Moon now. But if their dumb coach still wants Lebron to guard the PG and roam, someones gonna be toast somewhere because Mo nor West can really check VC or Shard 1v1 they'll get posted up. Now the Magic can go with muscle(Bass & Gortat may get some mins at the 4) OR finesse(Anderson) in the post along with this, where in the last two yrs, our only post options outside of Dwight were finesse(Rashard, Battie was broken down).


I think you've said it yourself, Hedo being 6-10 and still being able to do the things that he does presents major problems for opposing teams. I don't doubt VC being able to do those things, perhaps even better, but height does play an important factor in basketball and it's not something that should be shrug off lightly.

Mike Brown may not be an innovative coach on the offensive end but he has earned my respect for making the Cavs one of the best defensive teams in the league. I don't think mocking him especially on the defensive end makes much sense at all especially when he was able to convince a superstar like Lebron to commit to playing defense. Lebron is going to check Lewis unless VC is going off on a hot streak. As I said, the Cavs now have 2-3 guys that they can throw at VC and they have had success guarding him when he was paired up with another star wing in Richard Jefferson. With their defensive lineup as of now, I honestly don't see any position with the exception of maybe power forward that Orlando has an advantage in.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Ya know we probably wouldnt be having this discussion about mismatches if KG or Brand were healthy.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

seifer0406 said:


> I think you've said it yourself, Hedo being 6-10 and still being able to do the things that he does presents major problems for opposing teams. I don't doubt VC being able to do those things, perhaps even better, but height does play an important factor in basketball and it's not something that should be shrug off lightly.
> 
> Mike Brown may not be an innovative coach on the offensive end but he has earned my respect for making the Cavs one of the best defensive teams in the league. I don't think mocking him especially on the defensive end makes much sense at all especially when he was able to convince a superstar like Lebron to commit to playing defense. Lebron is going to check Lewis unless VC is going off on a hot streak. As I said, the Cavs now have 2-3 guys that they can throw at VC and they have had success guarding him when he was paired up with another star wing in Richard Jefferson. With their defensive lineup as of now, I honestly don't see any position with the exception of maybe power forward that Orlando has an advantage in.


Ok, well I guess we just disagree about Hedo because imo anything Hedo can do VC can do better. Ive watched Hedo for the past 5 yrs, but I guess im biased though. Hedo was adequate, but I guess Ive just watched Hedo make too many stupid plays to believe that he's some unreplaceable fit.... To me, VC seems like the much more sound player, better decision maker, more consistent, more athletic, just better overall. But your right, he's not 6'10 I cant argue w/ that... 

As for coach Brown, I wasnt mocking him just saying I feel him wasting Lebron on Alston so that he could 'roam' was a stupid decision. I would love to see Lebron try to roam while guarding Jameer. Jameer would light their *** up. It's alot easier to shut down one guy when he doesnt have 3 other all-star calibre players around him. If VC is double teamed, that means another good player is open. If they put LBJ on him, Lewis will be doing work. Maybe they wont double team him, but I just dont see how Cleveland can play everyone our team straight up and slow us down.... They would have to outgun us because we match up well with them. Their defense plays into out strength, which is to pack in the lane and give up the perimeter shot. Mike Brown's D couldnt stop our perimeter or interior assualt last season, its no secret how SVG exposed his *** the last wo seasons. I see it like this:

Jameer>Mo
VC>>Parker/West
Lewis<<LBJ
Bass=Varejao
Dwight>>a broken down Shaq

I see Orlando arguably with an advantage in every position except SF.... Unless you think Mo is better than Meer, Parker or West is better Vince, or current Shaq is better than Dwight.... Cleveland matches up better with us this yr with the addition of Parker and Moon. Shaq, nobody knows how thats gonna work out, but he cant be worse than Big Ben.... Cleveland is better, but Orlando is better too. They will have a better chance against us next season, but it wont be because there's no Hedo it will be because they added a legit wingman in Parker and Moon who can play the 3 and allow LBJ to play the 4. In other words, it will be because they have better versatility this yr not because Orlando has less. At least thats just my opinion.

Good article: http://mvn.com/fantasynbazone/2009/...n-antonio-orlando-who-ranks-the-best-pt2.html


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

Bass>Varejao


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> As for coach Brown, I wasnt mocking him just saying I feel him wasting Lebron on Alston so that he could 'roam' was a stupid decision. I would love to see Lebron try to roam while guarding Jameer. Jameer would light their *** up. It's alot easier to shut down one guy when he doesnt have 3 other all-star calibre players around him. If VC is double teamed, that means another good player is open. If they put LBJ on him, Lewis will be doing work. Maybe they wont double team him, but I just dont see how Cleveland can play everyone our team straight up and slow us down.... They would have to outgun us because we match up well with them. Their defense plays into out strength, which is to pack in the lane and give up the perimeter shot. Mike Brown's D couldnt stop our perimeter or interior assualt last season, its no secret how SVG exposed his *** the last wo seasons. I see it like this:
> 
> Jameer>Mo
> VC>>Parker/West
> ...


When VC was with the Nets the Cavs already had the experience of handling him and Richard Jefferson, who in my opinion is just as potent an offensive player as Rashard Lewis. In that series they were able to put guys like Pavlovic on VC and I belive Lebron guarded RJ. I don't remember the specific numbers for VC in that series but I do have memories of him admitting that he played badly. Now the Nets didn't have anyone like Howard to clog up the lane so it was more difficult for Vince to operate as defense collapsed on him. It will be interesting to see what he can do with more honest defense now that teams have to worry about Howard.

It's hard to compare positions for a team that has Lebron because all the Cavs need to do is be able to guard you and they will have the advantage on offense with the game's best scorer. When I look at the match ups right now, the Cavs can effective guard every single position. They had 2 major problems last year, one is Hedo and the other is obviously Howard. And now that Hedo is gone they match up better with VC and with the addition of Shaq and the return of Z they get an upgrade at center as well.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Since when was Shaq 'broken down'? He's not as good as he once was (obviously), but 75 GP, 18 and 8, with 60% shooting is hardly bad.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> When VC was with the Nets the Cavs already had the experience of handling him and *Richard Jefferson, who in my opinion is just as potent an offensive player as Rashard Lewis.* In that series they were able to put guys like Pavlovic on VC and I belive Lebron guarded RJ. I don't remember the specific numbers for VC in that series but I do have memories of him admitting that he played badly. Now the Nets didn't have anyone like Howard to clog up the lane so it was more difficult for Vince to operate as defense collapsed on him. It will be interesting to see what he can do with more honest defense now that teams have to worry about Howard.
> 
> It's hard to compare positions for a team that has Lebron because all the Cavs need to do is be able to guard you and they will have the advantage on offense with the game's best scorer. When I look at the match ups right now, the Cavs can effective guard every single position. They had 2 major problems last year, one is Hedo and the other is obviously Howard. And now that Hedo is gone they match up better with VC and with the addition of Shaq and the return of Z they get an upgrade at center as well.


Rashard Lewis will complement Jefferson better because he's a better jump shooter. The problem with that Nets team was that they didn't have reliable 3 point shooter or a quality low post presence against the Cavs. When the Cavs collapsed and Carter kicked it out to Kidd or Jefferson for a 3, they didn't convert at a high enough percentage.

Still, I believe Carter shooting percentage was sub 40% and even he failed to convert his fair share of opportunities. The Cavs were also put guys like Larry Hughes and Eric Snow on Vince Carter.


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## dwade3 (Sep 12, 2005)

The '93 Heat said:


> Weren't they just 3 games away from winning a championship with their 2nd best player injured? Courtney Lee is a really good player too.


you cannot say Jameer was their outright second best player, Dwight was the anchor, and Hedo was the captain...Nelson played very well, but take away D-Ho, Nelson would be a very average 10/5 type PG...Lewis and Hedo have proven themselves to be solid, healthy stars in the NBA.....in terms of losing Hedo, Alston and Lee and gaining Carter, its a generally ok, but losing the PG who arguably led Orlando by example to the finals is a MAJOR blow (especially if Nelson goes down)


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

dwade3 said:


> you cannot say Jameer was their outright second best player, Dwight was the anchor, and Hedo was the captain...Nelson played very well, but take away D-Ho, Nelson would be a very average 10/5 type PG...Lewis and Hedo have proven themselves to be solid, healthy stars in the NBA.....in terms of losing Hedo, Alston and Lee and gaining Carter, its a generally ok, but losing the PG who arguably led Orlando by example to the finals is a MAJOR blow (especially if Nelson goes down)


Low post players hurt PG's numbers much more than they help, in most cases.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

dwade3 said:


> you cannot say Jameer was their outright second best player, Dwight was the anchor, and Hedo was the captain...Nelson played very well, but take away D-Ho, Nelson would be a very average 10/5 type PG...Lewis and Hedo have proven themselves to be solid, healthy stars in the NBA.....in terms of losing Hedo, Alston and Lee and gaining Carter, its a generally ok, but losing the PG who arguably led Orlando by example to the finals is a MAJOR blow (especially if Nelson goes down)


Nelson was playing like the 2nd best player before he went down actually(He had racked up 3 POTW awards by mid-January as evidence) and any true Magic fan will admit that his emergance was the catalyst behind our early success. He and Dwight were the co captains last yr, and most consider Meer the true leader on the floor, and he's a guy who Dwight listens to so he helps keep Dwight in check(he told him he was wrong for calling out SVG after game5 at BOS, for example). 

Hedo was not a captain, maybe unofficially him and Rashard were, but this is Meer and Dwight's team. You could say Hedo may have been the 2nd best player 2 seasons ago, but for those who followed Orlando all season, he was behind Meer & Rashard. Hedo's just too inconsistent and sometimes makes bad decisions and silly plays in key times, which people dont seem to realize. His focus isnt always what it was in the finals or ECF's, and it's the main reason why most Magic fans arent depressed about losing him when we're bringing in Vince... Most Magic fans are excited about the prospect of having a smarter, more consistent, better decision maker on the floor in crunch time... Pretty much noone cares about the fact that he's not 6'10, because Hedo wasnt a guy who played big. Hedo brings alot to the table but to say that losing him is catastrophic because of our system is just dumb. It might be catastrophic to Hedo's career, but I dont see how Vince taking his place hurts us... Vince is without a doubt better and will improve our team. He is the type of player that we had been missing for years and everyone said it all season long and that Hedo wasn good enough. Now that we got him, they dont like it. It's a lose lose.

If Jameer goes down again, hopefully we will have Watson to replace him... Watson I think can be better for us as a backup than Alston, as he is a much more capable shooter/scorer who can spread the floor. We also added Bass and Anderson, 2 young PF's with alot of room to grow. People are sleepin on these two pickup's.

{JMO's


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Just some #'s from last year that I saw someone post on another board. It's based on a clutch situations stat from 82games.com where they look at production in the last 5 mins of the 4th Q and OT of games where niether team leads by more than 5 pts:



> From the list, i took a sample of wing players and some point guards to see how carter compares with the rest of the league. here are the players i sampled:
> 
> joe johnson, ray allen, paul pierce, ben gordon, lebron james, chauncey billups, carmelo anthony, danny granger, kobe bryant, dwayne wade, hedo turkoglu, rashard lewis, jameer nelson, andre iguodala, brandon roy, kevin martin, manu ginobili, caron butler, vince carter
> 
> ...


I think the people saying we lose this great edge are reaching, and quite honestly overrating Hedo. Sure he was a unique talent and a good player, but they're only looking at his good and not his bad. Those who have witnessed both the good and the bad of Hedo Turkaglu are the ones who aren't concerned about replacing him with someone of Vince's calibre. Hedo is a adequate closer on loaded team like Orlando was, and he can hit the occasional game winner. But Vince is without a doubt a guy who can bring his own set of matchup issues for other teams to worry about which negates the 6'10 factor. 

Yes, we also lose a promising guy in Lee and our temporary filler PG in Alston, but we pick up two other promising guys in Bass and Anderson(and possibly even Watson as well). The Magic should be just fine.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

More #'s from Orlando last year that should put some things in perspective(for those who didnt bother to watch them until the postseason/finals and think everything I say is ill-logical homerism):



> *Offensive Rating; an estimate of points produced (players) or scored (teams) per 100 possessions:*
> Jameer Nelson 121
> Dwight Howard 113
> Rashard Lewis 113
> ...


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Thank God for stats


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Those stats don't prove your point though. You don't need advanced stats to tell you Jameer was a more efficient scorer than Hedo last year. What you do need, however, are a pair of eyes and an understanding of basketball to understand that Jameer Nelson is at best an average play maker at the point guard position in the NBA. Nobody is doubting his ability to shoot the ball and score efficiently. Hedo on the other hand is an excellent play maker at the small forward position as a 6'10'' ball handler and passer. People don't realize how much of the Magic's offense was predicated on Hedo making the right decisions to get the ball moving and get open shots for the shooters. It still remains to be seen if Carter can come in and make the right decisions as often as Turkoglu did. Carter is obviously going to do some things Hedo couldn't, but he's going to have to show he can penetrate and make the right pass. Hedo's ability to make the skip pass and trigger the ball movement resulting in open looks needs to be replaced.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

hobojoe said:


> Those stats don't prove your point though. You don't need advanced stats to tell you Jameer was a more efficient scorer than Hedo last year. What you do need, however, are a pair of eyes and an understanding of basketball to understand that Jameer Nelson is at best an average play maker at the point guard position in the NBA. Nobody is doubting his ability to shoot the ball and score efficiently. Hedo on the other hand is an excellent play maker at the small forward position as a 6'10'' ball handler and passer. People don't realize how much of the Magic's offense was predicated on Hedo making the right decisions to get the ball moving and get open shots for the shooters. It still remains to be seen if Carter can come in and make the right decisions as often as Turkoglu did. Carter is obviously going to do some things Hedo couldn't, but he's going to have to show he can penetrate and make the right pass. Hedo's ability to make the skip pass and trigger the ball movement resulting in open looks needs to be replaced.


True, but i dont really think that those are really question marks in Vince's game. I guess you could legitimately question is his age, but in terms of his game, he's as close to a superstar as you can get. That's why I dont really see those as legitimite concerns, as his track record would show the common eye that he can be a go-to-guy and he can be a facilitator at the highest of levels.

The one thing about Hedo that I didnt like was relying on his decision making. He wasnt consistent in making the right decisions or taking the best shots night in and night out. Granted, he's made his fair share of big plays, but how many times has he disappeared for an entire game and then just showed up and hit the game winner?? That's why we loved him, but at the same time I cant be mad when we're bringing in VC to replace him. That's an upgrade to me. Those things that you mention I guess just aren't really a concern to me when i'm thinking about Vince Carter(health permitting, knock wood). 

Those stat's were to put Hedo's place on the team in perspective. He was an expendable piece, because as much he helped our team he also benefited from playing with the other stars on our team. Guys like Jameer and Rashard are just as likely to light your *** up as Hedo was. Hedo could go-off too, but he benefited from playing with those guys every bit as much as those guys benefited from him so it's not like he is some kind of irreplaceable centerpiece that we're losing. The centerpiece is Dwight.

Insert VC, and I think our team still have a similar balance because VC can effectively replace Hedo's facilitating(I really dont think it is a question). Meanwhile, can Hedo still be an effective primary facilitator in a completely different environment?? W/o a nightly double-team threat like Dwight and other lethal option?? Perhaps, but people are acting like the Magic are a product of Hedo, and Hedo made us what we were. I could argue it the other way around, you know? I love Hedo as much as the next, but he was a replaceable piece, and as the #'s show, contrary to pop opinion we have other guys on our very team just as impactful as him.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

It has been proven with the Nets, that he can make those type of passes hobojoe talked about.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Magic just signed Barnes. Still waiting to see if the Warriors match Watson. The Magic roster is shaping up nicely.

PG Nelson, Watson, Johnson
SG Carter, Pietrus, Redick
SF Lewis, Barnes
PF Bass, Anderson
C Howard, Gortat

Yeah. The rest of the league better be worried.


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## Babir (Jan 10, 2005)

Barnes is a great addition, I hope we'll get Watson as well...


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Damn, 12 deep......


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

It's going to be a dogfight for playing time. JJ could easily be a 6th man on a mediocre team, and its possible that he could yet again get stuck out of the rotation.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Idunkonyou said:


> Magic just signed Barnes. Still waiting to see if the Warriors match Watson. The Magic roster is shaping up nicely.
> 
> PG Nelson, Watson, Johnson
> SG Carter, Pietrus, Redick
> ...


I like Lewis staying at the 4 and I like Pietrus' offense spark and defense off the bench, a role he excelled at in the playoffs. Signing Barnes makes both of those possible. I prefer: 

PG Nelson | Watson | Johnson
SG Carter | Redick
SF Barnes | Pietrus 
PF Lewis | Bass | Anderson
C Howard | Gortat


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

hobojoe said:


> I like Lewis staying at the 4 and I like Pietrus' offense spark and defense off the bench, a role he excelled at in the playoffs. Signing Barnes makes both of those possible. I prefer:
> 
> PG Nelson | Watson | Johnson
> SG Carter | Redick
> ...


I think Pietrus has earned the right to start more so than Barns. His salary even says the same.

Nelson
Pietrus
Carter
Lewis
Howard

Run them out of the gym for the 1st 10 minutes then grid it out with

Nelson
Carter/Pietrus
Lewis/Barnes 
Bass/Gortat
Howard

For the next 10-15 minutes just to go back to running a team out of the gym for the rest of the half.

Either way Van Gundy has his work cut out for him. He now has to maximize his depth come post season. It's easy to coach up 6-7 guys to play good ball but making the right situational substitutions is now going to be a factor more than last year. Not a bad situation to be in tho, so much versatility to where teams are now going to be chasing the Magic as much as we thought the Magic were trying to keep up with them. He's also got all season to fine tune this.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

A couple of those guys will be traded with Gortat to bring back a quality player. JJ and RA's minutes are in jeopardy.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

HB said:


> A couple of those guys will be traded with Gortat to bring back a quality player. JJ and RA's minutes are in jeopardy.


Yeah, can't rule that out. It'll come after they find what pieces they need vs what they are wiling to give up once the season starts one would think.


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## Stan Van Gundy (Jul 15, 2009)

[email protected] Turkoglu as the best playmaker on the team. 


There were only three things Hedo would do when he had the ball - 

1. Dribble left and shoot some running fallaway from the basket off one leg and hope for the foul

2. Beat his man off the dribble and finish at the basket with a layup

3. Drive it to the basket and when options 1. and 2. were unavailible, kick it to the man who's spotting up in the corner for a 3.


The guy is a good ballhandler at 6'10, but he dribbles with his head down and almost NEVER hit Dwight Howard off rolls to the basket. The Magic's offense was based off good ballmovement at the top of the key off dribble penetration, not Hedo getting guys shots with his courtvision and playmaking. I don't see how that would change with Vince Carter replacing Hedo, especially when Vince is a better one on one player (especially at breaking down the defense) and as good (if not a better) passer.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Orlando is like that quiet storm. The storm that nobody thinks is gonna be an issue until it shows up on your doorstep and ****s up all of your wonderful plans. All I can tell the doubters is, you cant say I didnt warn you. 

Job's almost finished.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

stevemc said:


> I think Pietrus has earned the right to start more so than Barns. His salary even says the same.
> 
> Nelson
> Pietrus
> ...


And I think Jason Terry has "earned the right to start" for your team, whatever that means. I just like having Pietrus' energy and everything else he brings to the table off the bench. I doubt it will happen, but it's what I would do. Doesn't matter that much, I just care that Lewis stays at the 4.


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## joser (Nov 29, 2005)

I think the development of the Magic team depends on the offensive development of Howard. The Lakers exposed Howard that he is very limited offensively. If Howard can develop a hook shot or a quick spin to the basket, then Magic just got better.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

hobojoe said:


> And I think Jason Terry has "earned the right to start" for your team, whatever that means. I just like having Pietrus' energy and everything else he brings to the table off the bench. I doubt it will happen, but it's what I would do. Doesn't matter that much, I just care that Lewis stays at the 4.


I just don't think Barnes is who you want starting but he mixes it up in the paint more than Shard so it could work out.


Terry 
Kidd
Howard
Marion
Dirk

We'll put up 130, just hope the other team misses shots cause we're going to give up some points. I'm for it. Not like having Dampier on the floor is worth it unless matched against another 7' who doesn't move well.


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## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

Lets see, Dwight Howard is a superstar, Vince Carter is a superstar. Rashard Lewis is a 2 time all star and still every bit as good as he was when he was an All Star. Anytime you have 3 allstars on your team you are going to be good. Jameer Nelson is one of the better point guards in the east, I rank him higher than Rondo. The Magic and the Celtics are the 2 best line ups in the East, the only reason Cleveland can contend is because Lebron is that damn good. The Spurs, Lakers, Celtics, and Magic have the 4 best rosters in the NBA. The Magic have absolutely gotten better. I don't think they can afford to have Jameer miss much time this season though since Alston is now gone, so if he stays healthy and the majority of the roster is healthy the Magic will at least make the Eastern Conference Finals. The Celtics are better, but they are older so it's not a guarantee'd win for the Celtics, plus Howard is more physical than anything the Celtics can throw out there, so they have a shot. To beat the Lakers they are going to have to gel together throughout the season and look like a champion. The Celtics have the best squad to beat the Lakers though. The Spurs can beat the Lakers as well if they happen to be clicking at the right time.


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## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

I guess that Warriors won't be matching Watson if Magic really sign him, since they've recently acquired Acie Law.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

joser said:


> I think the development of the Magic team depends on the offensive development of Howard. The Lakers exposed Howard that he is very limited offensively. If Howard can develop a hook shot or a quick spin to the basket, then Magic just got better.


Dwight's been in LA for awhile this summer, so Bynum and Howard probably been working out. Dwight had a video chat last night and I asked who his biggest rival in the league was, he said Bynum and then probably also Chris Bosh. Hopefully some of Bynum's offense will rub off on Dwight tho, and some of Dwight's D will rub off on Bynum. We would be in for some good battles in the coming years of those two guys can round out their games(Kobe/Vince & Bynum/Dwight could be epic).


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Zuca said:


> I guess that Warriors won't be matching Watson if Magic really sign him, since they've recently acquired Acie Law.


I dont think they are getting Watson anymore. Barnes just took up the whole MLE.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

That is a shame, I really thought Watson would be a good player for them. Does anybody think JJ will see some minutes at the PG spot?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Nah they'll sign some guy on the cheap who can be a 3rd guard off the bench.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

CJ is gonna be interviewed later tonight. There should be more information out on the situation around then. Hopefully he can come, but idk...


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Some guy from real GM just interviewed CJ, and he apparently really wants to come to Orlando. It's just uncertain right now how we would be able to get him. http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=930504



> “I want to play with Orlando. With the four All-Stars and Stan [Van Gundy],” said Watson in an exclusive interview with RealGM’s Alex Kennedy.
> 
> .....
> 
> ...


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)




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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

This is a team that is, from top top bottom, completely committed to winning. It's a great thing to see. I'll be watching a lot of Magic this season.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Damn, that video really hyped me up for next season. CAN'T WAIT!!!!


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## Stan Van Gundy (Jul 15, 2009)

That video literally gave me goosebumps. I'm so excited to see Vince in Orlando. 


- That 360 layup he had vs. LA till this day has to be one of the 5 greatest layups in NBA History.


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## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Someone take this Orlando Magic porn down. At this point the thread is almost as bad as things the Lakers homers will post on the main board. Big ol' homer circle jerk. Ya'll have your own forum for that.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

stevemc said:


> Someone take this Orlando Magic porn down. At this point the thread is almost as bad as things the Lakers homers will post on the main board. Big ol' homer circle jerk. Ya'll have your own forum for that.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

The verdict is in: *NO*.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

The Magic gambled by changing their Finals lineup especially since both Hedo and VC are bad contracts. VC has only what, 5 assists for this series so far against Boston? Hedo had 25 pts/12 assists in Game 7 last year IIRC. VC might be a better overall player but Hedo was a better fit for the team. Hedo was a playmaker that helped create ball movement and opportunities for Lewis and Howard. Turkoglu was also a better closer. 

Now we see why the Magic went after Sheed and Antonio McDyess since Lewis has huge mismatch problems.

Howard seemed to have regressed from last year including a strength (rebounding) - his mental toughness also needs a lot of work. 

JJ Redick has improved significantly although he did make that dumbass mistake in crunch time the other game.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

You need playmaking at some point. They just haven't had any in the boston series


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I should've went in when I had the chance. Vince Carter ain't no leader.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

HB said:


> Thankfully you are in the minority on this, because VC happens to always be in the top 10 for clutch stats in the league. Yes you are right, clutch doesnt only mean taking a buzzer beater, so ask yourself, who has been the go to guy on the Raptors and Nets teams that VC has been on? I have seen the guy take over 4th quarters numerous times. To say he is not clutch is simply false. Makes me wonder if you are a Raptors fan....which I am guessing you are. Hedo does NOT do anything better than Vince, thats a fact. Rebound? Nah Passing? Nah Defense? Nah. So what are those things you are talking about?





Duck34234 said:


> But the Magic sorely need a player who could get them big baskets when they needed it.
> 
> Vince is the athletic perimeter player that can get to the bucket and make a layup during crunch time (hedo never did this).


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Blue Magic said:


> Wow, before the playoffs we couldnt win anything with Hedo as our only playmaker. Now all of a sudden, losing Hedo is the end of the world! :laugh: Please, everybody just stop it! Most of you have been wrong about the Magic all year long, now all of a sudden you guys become experts about what the team needs? No, as always, most of you know absolutely nothing when it comes to the Magic. Hedo used to be a laughing stock around the league as our 'closer', but now all a sudden he's a better closer than Vince ****ing Carter? All I can say is wow.... And Alston is a better playmaker than Jameer? Are you people kidding me?? :rotf:


:baseldance:


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

lol


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

To be fair this is the furthest that VC has ever gone in the playoffs so I guess he can be proud of that at least. I think at this point it's obvious that you can't count on VC to get your team over the top. When the Nets got him they couldn't get back to the finals and with the way things are looking Magic wouldn't be going back there either. I remember ESPN asked the question that nobody knows what VC can do with a good team around him, hopefully this answers that question.

And for the last time Turkoglu is in no way, shape, or form a better basketball player than VC. However for the way that Orlando constructed their team Hedo brings a certain element to that team that is lost with VC. Granted VC also brings a lot of things that they never had with Hedo but with the playoffs unfolding perhaps what Hedo brought is worth a bit more than what VC has.

But then again you never know if the Celtics would've swept the Magic last year had KG been healthy. My opinion is that after you factor in Rondo's improvement and that both KG and Allen lost a step this year the Celtics team this year is about even strength with a healthy Celtics team last year.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Big Baby always kills us.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

HB said:


> Thankfully you are in the minority on this, because VC happens to always be in the top 10 for clutch stats in the league.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

FX™ said:


>


That says it all, he wanted no part of those FTs.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

My favorite part about this thread is seeing hobojoe's sig where HB claims the Cavs were going to sweep the Magic last year. How many of those 60,000 posts went wrong? "What a character."


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

HB is bad luck. Stay away from my team, bro. :laugh:


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