# Is Kobe the best player in the game right now?



## SmarterThanUrAvgBear (Feb 28, 2006)

Has Kobe officially been declared #1? how long will he have that title?


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

1a. LeBron James/Kobe Bryant
1b. Kobe Bryant/LeBron James




2. the rest (with D. Wade appoaching)


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

ralaw said:


> 1a. LeBron James/Kobe Bryant
> 1b. Kobe Bryant/LeBron James
> 
> 
> ...


 I can get with that.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

I'm still going with Kobe over Lebron. Lebron has Kobe in rebounding but everything else is going for Kobe or tied. The assists thing is debetable, because of where Kobe works from in the triangle offenses he will initiate the pass that causes the assist. And defensively Kobe is still ahead of Lebron, as for their offense Kobe runs away with it. Overall it's close but I beleive Kobe will be on top for 2 more years, possibly until he's 31.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Kobe=Lebron

If you are picking one over the other, it's most likely because you haven't seen enough of the other, or you are biased. There's no clear cut reason to pick one over the other.

Incidentally, the Lakers are beating the Suns with Kobe playing like Lebron. I've been saying for awhile he needed to play like this.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Kobe is the best player in the game, hands down.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I Think Kobe is the best in the game right now....but he isn't getting better. It isn't really about if Kobe can hold off LeBron until he's 31, it's how fast LeBron is approaching........look what he's done in his first 3 years, and now an additional 3 years? I Doubt it.

But I'm really not much for who's the best , i just want to see competitive basketball, period.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Kobe is the best player in the game (period).

And for LeBron fans, if there is any doubt, let's just say it's because Kobe has always been arguably the best guard since Jordan since he started winning chips. He's been doing this for YEARS. Now that Shaq's fat-*** is gone, he is finally getting props that's all.

LeBron is second, but it's okay to be second to your idol right? Especially when you're 21 and looking up.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Kobe=Lebron
> 
> If you are picking one over the other, it's most likely because you haven't seen enough of the other, or you are biased. There's no clear cut reason to pick one over the other.
> 
> Incidentally, the Lakers are beating the Suns with Kobe playing like Lebron. I've been saying for awhile he needed to play like this.


 Kobe playing like Lebron, this is how Kobe played during the three peat too, it's more of Lebron playing like the 3 peat Kobe.


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## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

LW said:


> Kobe is the best player in the game (period).
> 
> And for LeBron fans, if there is any doubt, let's just say it's because Kobe has always been arguably the best guard since Jordan since he started winning chips. He's been doing this for YEARS. Now that Shaq's fat-*** is gone, he is finally getting props that's all.
> 
> LeBron is second, but it's okay to be second to your idol right? Especially when you're 21 and looking up.


Shaq's just declining with age. He was the best player on the Lakers.

Kobe is the best individual, stand-alone player in the league. Best team player? Hell no.


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## jworth (Feb 17, 2006)

Kobe is the best player in the NBA right now.

Stats and style aside, though, and a healthy Tim Duncan is the best overall player.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

23isback said:


> Shaq's just declining with age. He was the best player on the Lakers.
> 
> Kobe is the best individual, stand-alone player in the league. Best team player? Hell no.


Kobe was the best player on the last two Laker title teams, you just weren't watching the games. The Lakers title teams might be the only title team in history in which people don't consider the player you give the ball to in the clutch the best player (this is not the Robert Horry clutch situation).


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## Chalie Boy (Aug 26, 2002)

yep


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

23isback said:


> Shaq's just declining with age. He was the best player on the Lakers.
> 
> Kobe is the best individual, stand-alone player in the league. Best team player? Hell no.


I love how people say Kobe is the best ____ player in the league just to qualify his greatness. Kobe is the Best Player. No qualification needed.

He is the only player in this league that can lead the triangle offense from TWO different positions. His versatility is second to none. He can play the point position, known as the facilitator, as well as any point guard in this league and he has proven that with 4 years of experience in that position and 3 championships to prove it. He is the only "second option" to ever go 25/6/6. His court vision, although not demonstrated in the last 2 years, is among the best in the league. His ability to control the game as a quarterback on offense lead the Lakers in numerous Game 7 wins.

At the scoring position in the triangle, he averages 35.4/6.6/4.6. These are numbers that Jordan barely touched in his stint at the same position in the triangle. We are talking about Jordan! Kobe is the only guard in this league that literally controls the gravity of the floor. He literally sucks in defenders at the post like a center. He is also quick as lightning from the pinch post, despite his age, and his speed at his position in the triangle is second only to MJ. He can shoot fadeaways like they are spot up jumpers. He literally toys with defenders when the ball finds its way into his hands with less than 5 seconds on the clock. Lastly, he knows how to control the pace of the game and that goes hand-in-hand with his extremely dominant control of the post area.

His most important advantage versus LBJ is that he knows his job. He doesn't try to grab rebounds as a scorer in the triangle, but he crashes the boards like no other if he is playing the facilitator spot. He doesn't go out to the top of the arc as a scorer from the wing, but he does so as a facilitator. He switches positions at will, depending on Phil's call. 

LeBron tries to do EVERYTHING. He runs freelance and the entire Cavs offense is just "let's see how much LeBron's physical dominance can carry us." While that means LeBron might average close to a triple-double, his approach to the game lacks discipline and it doesn't allow for a task-specific offensive game plan like what the Lakers are able to command versus the Suns.

I don't think anyone dominates the game the way Kobe can at this point in time. And yes, that includes LeBron James, who is himself extremely dominant in his respective offense. Much respect to Bron Bron though, but I have re-iterated this point many times - he needs a good coach. Jordan used to freelance as well, but he was always eliminated from the playoffs early. When Jordan found Phil, he disciplined his basketball approach and became the greatest. LeBron needs to find that coach to bring him to the next level he deserves to be in.


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

yup.................and he'll have that title till lebron wins his first ring.......or if wade gets three rings


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Kobe was the best player on the last two Laker title teams, you just weren't watching the games. The Lakers title teams might be the only title team in history in which people don't consider the player you give the ball to in the clutch the best player (this is not the Robert Horry clutch situation).


You can't give the ball to Shaq inthe clutch... 

1.They'll just foul him and make him shoot free throws
2.It's EXTREMELY hard for a big man to hit shots when it's close, teams just collapse on you. Tim Duncan has some, but not many game winning shots, not only that, if you watch the ones he did hit, they are VERY tough fallaway shots, something Shaq can't do...


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

LW said:


> I love how people say Kobe is the best ____ player in the league just to qualify his greatness. Kobe is the Best Player. No qualification needed.
> 
> He is the only player in this league that can lead the triangle offense from TWO different positions. His versatility is second to none. He can play the point position, known as the facilitator, as well as any point guard in this league and he has proven that with 4 years of experience in that position and 3 championships to prove it. He is the only "second option" to ever go 25/6/6. His court vision, although not demonstrated in the last 2 years, is among the best in the league. His ability to control the game as a quarterback on offense lead the Lakers in numerous Game 7 wins.
> 
> ...


Nail, meet head.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

Kobe the best in the game. Anyone who says otherwise should be killed.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Kobe isn't that much better than Wade and I don't think he is better than Lebron.He's a guy who created a situation where he could 35 points per game and Phil Jackson figured out a way to win in spite of Kobe's self-destructive urges.What is more Lebron has had as many truly great seasons in his three years in the NBA as Kobe has had.

If Kobe wanted to win as badly as he wants to be recognized as the best player then he would be the best player.Instead he has placed his own need for recognition in front of his team and it's pretty doubtful that other good players will want to come to Los Angeles so long as Kobe wants to act as though he is alpha and the omega.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

LW said:


> I love how people say Kobe is the best ____ player in the league just to qualify his greatness. Kobe is the Best Player. No qualification needed.
> 
> He is the only player in this league that can lead the triangle offense from TWO different positions. His versatility is second to none. He can play the point position, known as the facilitator, as well as any point guard in this league and he has proven that with 4 years of experience in that position and 3 championships to prove it. He is the only "second option" to ever go 25/6/6. His court vision, although not demonstrated in the last 2 years, is among the best in the league. His ability to control the game as a quarterback on offense lead the Lakers in numerous Game 7 wins.
> 
> ...


 Geez.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

A healthy Tim Duncan is the best player in basketball. 

Kobe gets the nod over LeBron. Offensively, it's a draw as they're both very dominant. Kobe gets the nod with defense, and his understanding of the game. He just has an amazing understanding of complex basketball concepts, and I do attribute that to having Phil Jackson as his coach for several years. Phil is the evil genius behind great basketball minds such as Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant and soon to be Lamar Odom.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*easy*



> Kobe isn't that much better than Wade and I don't think he is better than Lebron.He's a guy who created a situation where he could 35 points per game and Phil Jackson figured out a way to win in spite of Kobe's self-destructive urges.What is more Lebron has had as many truly great seasons in his three years in the NBA as Kobe has had


You forgot to mention that Chris Paul > Kobe


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Diable said:


> If Kobe wanted to win as badly as he wants to be recognized as the best player then he would be the best player.Instead he has placed his own need for recognition in front of his team and it's pretty doubtful that other good players will want to come to Los Angeles so long as Kobe wants to act as though he is alpha and the omega.


This is probably the worst interpretation of Kobe's personality in the history of mankind. He really doesn't care about individual achievements at all - you can just watch the all-star games to prove yourself wrong. The fact that he didn't shoot for a scoring championship last year should also tell you something.

He wants to win and he HATES laziness/complacency (Shaq). Even Phil Jackson said himself that Kobe is not to blame for the situation he is currently in right now. Kobe doesn't like putting himself in a losing position, but if you were watching basketball in 2002-2004, you'd know Shaq was already in decline. 3 Rings was already pushing it, and really it was because of Kobe dragging that Laker squad through the West on that last championship run. The Lakers would not have won any more championships with Shaq.

I think all this "Kobe isn't even that much better than Wade" talk stems from a misunderstanding of his passion for the game. He wants to win no less than any one of the greats in the history of the league. I can attest to that from having watched his growth in LA. In fact, the rumor is that his new #24 is a reminder to himself that he needs to be focused on winning the championship 24 hours a day. Kobe is literally borderline insane with passion for winning and to say otherwise speaks volumes for how much people misunderstand him.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

LW said:


> His most important advantage versus LBJ is that he knows his job. He doesn't try to grab rebounds as a scorer in the triangle, but he crashes the boards like no other if he is playing the facilitator spot. He doesn't go out to the top of the arc as a scorer from the wing, but he does so as a facilitator. He switches positions at will, depending on Phil's call.
> 
> LeBron tries to do EVERYTHING. He runs freelance and the entire Cavs offense is just "let's see how much LeBron's physical dominance can carry us." While that means LeBron might average close to a triple-double, his approach to the game lacks discipline and it doesn't allow for a task-specific offensive game plan like what the Lakers are able to command versus the Suns.
> .


So Kobe is better than Lebron because Lebron tries to do everything? 
Kobe is better than Lebron because he doesn't try to get rebounds? 
Kobe is a better player than Lebron because Lebron doesn't play like he's in the triangle offense, even though he isn't? 

Look. They are equal. Their offensive dominance is equal. Their defensive dominance is equal. They are equal right now. It's probably the last time it will be that way. But that's how it is right now.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> So Kobe is better than Lebron because Lebron tries to do everything?
> Kobe is better than Lebron because he doesn't try to get rebounds?
> Kobe is a better player than Lebron because Lebron doesn't play like he's in the triangle offense, even though he isn't?
> 
> Look. They are equal. Their offensive dominance is equal. Their defensive dominance is equal. They are equal right now. It's probably the last time it will be that way. But that's how it is right now.


 Their defensive dominance will never be equal until Lebron starts guarding the opposing team's best player. Offensively it is closer but Kobe still has the edge with points, and I've already explained the assists.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> So Kobe is better than Lebron because Lebron tries to do everything?
> Kobe is better than Lebron because he doesn't try to get rebounds?
> Kobe is a better player than Lebron because Lebron doesn't play like he's in the triangle offense, even though he isn't?
> 
> Look. They are equal. Their offensive dominance is equal. Their defensive dominance is equal. They are equal right now. It's probably the last time it will be that way. But that's how it is right now.


Yes. And it's obvious if you've ever played organized basketball. A great team has great cogs. Great cogs cannot do everything for the team. And a great coach like Phil Jackson would make LeBron get to that next level.

You can believe they are equal if you want. It's not really THAT much of a stretch, but it's not about statistics. Any basketball mind worth his words will tell you that stats don't tell you how well a player plays - it only tells you how well he plays his position.

LeBron is a unique talent - the greatest we have ever been blessed with. But to be cheesy with it, right now he's just a ronin waiting to be samurai.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Kobe is really less a basketball player than a god. So, its not really fair to compare him to other players.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Diable said:


> Kobe isn't that much better than Wade and I don't think he is better than Lebron.He's a guy who created a situation where he could 35 points per game and Phil Jackson figured out a way to win in spite of Kobe's self-destructive urges.What is more Lebron has had as many truly great seasons in his three years in the NBA as Kobe has had.
> 
> If Kobe wanted to win as badly as he wants to be recognized as the best player then he would be the best player.Instead he has placed his own need for recognition in front of his team and it's pretty doubtful that other good players will want to come to Los Angeles so long as Kobe wants to act as though he is alpha and the omega.


Wow, a good post about Kobe. I thought such things were banned here.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Their defensive dominance will never be equal until Lebron starts guarding the opposing team's best player. Offensively it is closer but Kobe still has the edge with points, and I've already explained the assists.


Lebron does guard the opponents best player. A lot more than Kobe does. And a lot more than Wade does. When for the bulk of the season your options defensively are either Damon Jones or Eric Snow--Lebron inevitably ends up guarding the best offensive player. Lebron was the reason you didn't hear anything from Jamison in game 1, by the by. Lebron locked him down. In game 2, Jamison was again locked out, until Lebron got in foul trouble and had to lay off defensively. Then Jamison scored his points.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Why didn't he guard Kobe then? Ultimate challenge why didn't he step up to it, and BTW Snow is a great defender even at this age, it's the main reason he's still starting, since his offense is only there once every 10 games.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Lebron does guard the opponents best player. A lot more than Kobe does. And a lot more than Wade does. When for the bulk of the season your options defensively are either Damon Jones or Eric Snow--Lebron inevitably ends up guarding the best offensive player. Lebron was the reason you didn't hear anything from Jamison in game 1, by the by. Lebron locked him down. In game 2, Jamison was again locked out, until Lebron got in foul trouble and had to lay off defensively. Then Jamison scored his points.


I don't want to nitpick, but the best player in the Wiz squad is number 0.

But yeah, you're right that LeBron guards good players a lot - certainly more than Wade. But to say LeBron guards good players more than Kobe? Hmmm....

Anyway, it's starting to degrade into a nitpick fest. futuristxen, I don't know if you're a Cavs fan or a LeBron fan, but if you are the latter I'm confident that you will agree with me that LeBron would benefit from playing for a coach like Phil Jackson. Just like Kobe did for the Lakers in 00-02, LeBron could quarterback Phil's team to 3 rings if that were the case. But in Cleveland.... ?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Why didn't he guard Kobe then? Ultimate challenge why didn't he step up to it, and BTW Snow is a great defender even at this age, it's the main reason he's still starting, since his offense is only there once every 10 games.


Maybe Lebron doesn't guard Kobe because Lebron is a 6-8 250 pound SF, not a SG. Just a thought.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

LW said:


> Yes. And it's obvious if you've ever played organized basketball. A great team has great cogs. Great cogs cannot do everything for the team. And a great coach like Phil Jackson would make LeBron get to that next level.
> 
> You can believe they are equal if you want. It's not really THAT much of a stretch, but it's not about statistics. Any basketball mind worth his words will tell you that stats don't tell you how well a player plays - it only tells you how well he plays his position.
> 
> LeBron is a unique talent - the greatest we have ever been blessed with. But to be cheesy with it, right now he's just a ronin waiting to be samurai.


This has to be a first. Your arguing that Kobe is better than Lebron because he fits into a system better and plays team basketball better. Astounding.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Since when is Jamison the best offensive player on the Wizards, don't Gilbert and Caron still play on that team.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> This has to be a first. Your arguing that Kobe is better than Lebron because he fits into a system better and plays team basketball better. Astounding.


If you don't think selfish-Kobe is a media misconception I don't know what to tell you. Selfish point guards don't win 3 championships. Yes he was basically a point guard for 4 years.

Anyway, I left a post higher up ^ asking you about what you think would be better for LeBron.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> Maybe Lebron doesn't guard Kobe because Lebron is a 6-8 250 pound SF, not a SG. Just a thought.


 Then the statement " Lebron guards the best offensive player on the other team" is a false one, and why does size matter if Kobe can guard Lebron but Lebron can't guard Kobe, that has less to do with size than it does with lateral quickness and defensive mobility.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

LW said:


> I don't want to nitpick, but the best player in the Wiz squad is number 0.
> 
> But yeah, you're right that LeBron guards good players a lot - certainly more than Wade. But to say LeBron guards good players more than Kobe? Hmmm....
> 
> Anyway, it's starting to degrade into a nitpick fest. futuristxen, I don't know if you're a Cavs fan or a LeBron fan, but if you are the latter I'm confident that you will agree with me that LeBron would benefit from playing for a coach like Phil Jackson. Just like Kobe did for the Lakers in 00-02, LeBron could quarterback Phil's team to 3 rings if that were the case. But in Cleveland.... ?


You're not going to stop number 0 with a 6-8 240 pound small forward. Jamison is the next most important cog on the Wizards team. The Wiz big 3 is Butler, Arenas, and Jamison. The more of those you can take out the better.

And of course Lebron could benefit from playing for Phil, who wouldn't? But he doesn't need Phil to become a better player. Most of the concepts Phil preaches, Lebron does instinctively. Mike Brown is going to be Lebron's Greg Popovich. It's obvious the Cavs are trying to follow the Spurs model for building around Duncan with Lebron.

And over the course of the year Lebron has guarded Kobe, Pierce, Carter, AI, Wade, Elton Bran, T-Mac--the only one of those who actually guarded Lebron back was Paul Pierce, and for a minute at the end of one of the games Kobe.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

LW said:


> If you don't think selfish-Kobe is a media misconception I don't know what to tell you. Selfish point guards don't win 3 championships. Yes he was basically a point guard for 4 years.
> 
> Anyway, I left a post higher up ^ asking you about what you think would be better for LeBron.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Oh, man, that's priceless. Yeah, the media created the selfish kobe myth. 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Then the statement " Lebron guards the best offensive player on the other team" is a false one, and why does size matter if Kobe can guard Lebron but Lebron can't guard Kobe, that has less to do with size than it does with lateral quickness and defensive mobility.


I didn't watch the Cavs Lakers games but all James has to do is take Kobe in the post and you'll see how size matters. The post would be the place, where, IMO, Lebron should really focus his energies. W/ his body and quickness, he should be able to destroy fools in the post.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Then the statement " Lebron guards the best offensive player on the other team" is a false one, and why does size matter if Kobe can guard Lebron but Lebron can't guard Kobe, that has less to do with size than it does with lateral quickness and defensive mobility.



Lebron has guarded Kobe. More than Kobe has guarded Lebron. The thing is though, Eric Snow has always guarded Kobe close to the best out of anyone in the league. So obviously Mike Brown is going to put Snow on Kobe as much as possible when they play the Lakers. Lebron will do what it takes to win the game. Stroking his ego trying to make a point isn't his game.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
> 
> Oh, man, that's priceless. Yeah, the media created the selfish kobe myth.
> 
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Interesting analysis.

Ask any Laker fan. Ask them if Kobe is selfish. To me, a selfish player will always be pointed out by fans of his/her respective team. These are the guys who play for contract extensions, only show up for contract seasons etc. For example, Stephon Marbury might have been pointed out as selfish by Suns fans while he was in Phoenix. There might be a few Laker fans (I don't hang out with too many) that tell you Kobe is a ballhog at times, but to say he is selfish is certainly a misconception.

Kobe's selfish image really peaked when Shaq left LA. Any intelligent person will tell you that both these players were at fault for the fallout of that incident. Regardless, Kobe came out with a worse reputation. Are you telling me the media did not try to paint Kobe a certain way?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Debating defense about either of these players is pretty funny, since neither one of them is Ron Artest. Both make the occasional defensive play. But you guys are acting like Kobe is some sort of defensive stopper. He hasn't played tough defense in 2-3 years. Even the last year that Shaq was there, Manu Ginobilli was schooling him. Kobe just doesn't put the focus in on that end that he used to. He's not better or worse than Lebron defensively at this point. When either player focuses on that end they can make a play happen. Both are really only looking for steals or blocks though. Lebron's defensive rebounding though is something that does help defensively overall. There's no reason that eventually he can't be a double digit rebounder.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*keep up the comedy my friend*



futuristxen said:


> Debating defense about either of these players is pretty funny, since neither one of them is Ron Artest. Both make the occasional defensive play. But you guys are acting like Kobe is some sort of defensive stopper. He hasn't played tough defense in 2-3 years. Even the last year that Shaq was there, Manu Ginobilli was schooling him. Kobe just doesn't put the focus in on that end that he used to. He's not better or worse than Lebron defensively at this point. When either player focuses on that end they can make a play happen.  Both are really only looking for steals or blocks though. Lebron's defensive rebounding though is something that does help defensively overall. There's no reason that eventually he can't be a double digit rebounder.


I'm just trying to imagine you typing this stuff up with a grim look of concentration on your face--makes me laugh.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

LW said:


> Interesting analysis.
> 
> Ask any Laker fan. Ask them if Kobe is selfish. To me, a selfish player will always be pointed out by fans of his/her respective team. These are the guys who play for contract extensions, only show up for contract seasons etc. For example, Stephon Marbury might have been pointed out as selfish by Suns fans while he was in Phoenix. There might be a few Laker fans (I don't hang out with too many) that tell you Kobe is a ballhog at times, but to say he is selfish is certainly a misconception.
> 
> Kobe's selfish image really peaked when Shaq left LA. Any intelligent person will tell you that both these players were at fault for the fallout of that incident. Regardless, Kobe came out with a worse reputation. Are you telling me the media did not try to paint Kobe a certain way?


Sorry the opinions of a bunch of Kobe apologists just don't mean much to me. Plain as day to anyone w/ eyes who the selfish **** was. Shaq wasn't perfect, for sure, but he was right.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Why didn't he guard Kobe then? Ultimate challenge why didn't he step up to it, and BTW Snow is a great defender even at this age, it's the main reason he's still starting, since his offense is only there once every 10 games.


eric snow isn't even close to a great defensive player. i wouldn't even call him above average defensively anymore. but the reason he is starting is because damon jones is a liabilty on defense while snow is just average. the first thing the cavs need to do if they want to become a real contender is to get a real pg.



> Since when is Jamison the best offensive player on the Wizards, don't Gilbert and Caron still play on that team.


since when is caron butler better than jamison?


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> Sorry the opinions of a bunch of Kobe apologists just don't mean much to me. Plain as day to anyone w/ eyes who the selfish **** was. Shaq wasn't perfect, for sure, but he was right.


I guess 66% of the people are all Kobe apologists then? That's what the poll is showing so far.

You know what SeaNet? You haven't really addressed any of the posts head-on, only choosing to poke and take childish jabs at ones you don't agree with. Despite being listed as 30 years old, I've yet to see any post with even a shred of objectivity. I guess hate is a blinder that's hard to take off.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

LW said:


> I guess 66% of the people are all Kobe apologists then? That's what the poll is showing so far..


Only 37 people have even bothered to vote in this poll. So yeah, it's more than likely.


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## VeN (May 10, 2005)

No, hes not.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> eric snow isn't even close to a great defensive player. i wouldn't even call him above average defensively anymore. but the reason he is starting is because damon jones is a liabilty on defense while snow is just average. the first thing the cavs need to do if they want to become a real contender is to get a real pg.
> 
> since when is caron butler better than jamison?





futuristxen said:


> Eric Snow has always guarded Kobe close to the best out of anyone in the league.


Offensively Caron has more weapons to work with, Jamison is a player that picks up the garbage stuff, he rarely creates for him, its not as challenging as Caron would be, since Caron creates his own jumpshot, is quicker and is more athletic. It's only a 3 point difference and Antawn gets 4 more MPG.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

LW said:


> I guess 66% of the people are all Kobe apologists then? That's what the poll is showing so far.
> 
> You know what SeaNet? You haven't really addressed any of the posts head-on, only choosing to poke and take childish jabs at ones you don't agree with. Despite being listed as 30 years old, I've yet to see any post with even a shred of objectivity. I guess hate is a blinder that's hard to take off.


I try to approach the myriad worthless and absurd 'Kobe is the Greatest!!!!' threads w/ the appropriate rhetorical tone. And, personally, I feel I've achieved my goal and then some. If you'd like to read my 'adult' posts, look at what I have to say in the Nets forum. There's only 2 people I have a history w/ that I have to throw down on in there.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

I don't really think it's a stretch that LeBron is able to contend with Kobe for the best player in the NBA. Posters like futuristxen have posted some arguments for LeBron. Especially since "best player" is really something that can be an eye of the beholder problem. As MVP polling showed, these opinions even tend to be split geographically. Everything from marketing to familiarity with a player makes the best player question one of mindshare amongst the NBA audience.

However, what I really despise is the fact that people have the need to take personal shots at Kobe. When it comes to basketball, I really feel people are blurring their personal feelings and misunderstandings about Kobe's personality with his ability to play the game. This is both unfair to the player as well as to people like me who could care less about some people's biased opinions about Kobe's personal life/personality.

EDIT: Btw, I'd like to add that two wrongs don't make a right. SeaNet, even if you really dread seeing these "Kobe is the best player" threads it doesn't reflect well on you when you respond as you do. Plus, if you really hate Kobe, RealGM is the place to go. They tend to share your hatred for Kobe over on that board.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

LW said:


> I don't really think it's a stretch that LeBron is able to contend with Kobe for the best player in the NBA. Posters like futuristxen have posted some arguments for LeBron. Especially since "best player" is really something that can be an eye of the beholder problem. As MVP polling showed, these opinions even tend to be split geographically. Everything from marketing to familiarity with a player makes the best player question one of mindshare amongst the NBA audience.
> 
> However, what I really despise is the fact that people have the need to take personal shots at Kobe. When it comes to basketball, I really feel people are blurring their personal feelings and misunderstandings about Kobe's personality with his ability to play the game. This is both unfair to the player as well as to people like me who could care less about some people's biased opinions about Kobe's personal life/personality.


I would like to say that my disdain for Kobe is split evenly between his person and his game. They both disgust me. And the worst part about watching most of the past two Lakers Phoenix games is that Kobe actually played the right way for the majority of the game. I can only hope its a temporary aberration, and I feel pretty confident it was.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Sorry the opinions of a bunch of Kobe apologists just don't mean much to me. Plain as day to anyone w/ eyes who the selfish **** was. Shaq wasn't perfect, for sure, but he was right.


Is Kobe egotistical? yes.

Is Kobe selfish? Hmmm...

About the thread, it's clear as daylight that Kobe is better than Lebron James. There was a thread about it last week or something, and Kobe was like an unanimous decision. But i digress.

For me, the diference between Kobe and Lebron James relies in two things: defense and inteligence.

Kobe is a better defender than Lebron, Yes, Kobe's defensive prowesses are inconsistent. It seems he only plays great defense when he pleases/faces a personal challenge. Kobe has shut down (and i mean SHUT DOWN) guys like Carter and Redd. 

Intelligence is a whole different chapter. LW is right by saying that Kobe is playing within an elaborate offensive scheme: the triangle offense. It's no easy thing to do. Michael hated it. Kobe hated it. But still he ries to play along the plan. That FACT has been proven in the playoffs this year. It's like Phil told Kobe: "look, man, the only way we can win this is if we take advantage of our height advantage. Forget scoring 40. Feed the post. Draw the double team and pass it around." And this is what Kobe is doing. He can adapt to what is needed: to be the scorer, the facilitator, the decoy, you name it. I could bet that if the Suns devise a way to neutralize Odom and Brown, Kobe will score 50 for the Lakers to win.

Lebron, he thrives in athleticism. He's unstopable, all right, the same way a young Charles Barkley was. But he doesn't have Kobe's experience. His game 1 was great, game 2 was putrid. Why? He didn't know how to handle the pressure the Wiz were putting upon him. 10 turnovers. Only 2 assists. Shooting under .350FG%. He crumbled. And he crumbled because he is still too young. He doesn't know how to react to defensive changes. Faced with strong opposition, his athleticism didn't help his decision-making. Again, 10 turnovers.

It's the feel for the game, folks. Kobe has it in bundles. Lebron, not yet.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> I would like to say that my disdain for Kobe is split evenly between his person and his game. They both disgust me. And the worst part about watching most of the past two Lakers Phoenix games is that Kobe actually played the right way for the majority of the game. I can only hope its a temporary aberration, and I feel pretty confident it was.


It's not an aberration. He's done it all the years of the threepeat. Kobe's just a guy who has the mentality that he'd rather go down swinging, and that means you'll see him chuck bad shots in a foolish attempt to try and shoot the team back into the game.

He certainly knows how to run an offense and he has the resume to prove it. It's not even an intangible thing - looking over film from the mini-dynasty days, you can spot flashes in his game where he demonstrates his court vision and ability to involve teammates.

It's just unfortunate that he's had to play the way he has these past two seasons. I'm sure if the team were to show marked improvement, Kobe will play the game "the right way." If he continues to do so, I'd hope that fans like you will show some support and temper your dislike for him.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

LW said:


> It's not an aberration. He's done it all the years of the threepeat. Kobe's just a guy who has the mentality that he'd rather go down swinging, and that means you'll see him chuck bad shots in a foolish attempt to try and shoot the team back into the game.
> 
> He certainly knows how to run an offense and he has the resume to prove it. It's not even an intangible thing - looking over film from the mini-dynasty days, you can spot flashes in his game where he demonstrates his court vision and ability to involve teammates.
> 
> It's just unfortunate that he's had to play the way he has these past two seasons. I'm sure if the team were to show marked improvement, Kobe will play the game "the right way." If he continues to do so, I'd hope that fans like you will show some support and temper your dislike for him.


All the years of the 3-peat he had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the team framework and resisted until the last possible moment. Then he just couldn't take it any more and stopped entirely, torpedoed the team's chances against the Pistons and forced the dissolution of the franchise. That's not someone who's inclined to play team ball, sorry.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> All the years of the 3-peat he had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the team framework and resisted until the last possible moment. Then he just couldn't take it any more and stopped entirely, torpedoed the team's chances against the Pistons and forced the dissolution of the franchise. That's not someone who's inclined to play team ball, sorry.


After reading your posts, I understand that's your view of the situation. I can understand that and it's your view anyway, so I'm not entitled to try to force a change.

I do think that there are a few things you could do: 1) just appreciate Kobe for the basketball talent he is, regardless of what you think of his personal agendas, and 2) give the dude a chance. I'd understand you holding your grudge against him for certain reasons, but I'd also like to know that you (actually, all fans like you) are willing to change. Kobe's 27 now - he's matured and demonstrated his ability to change. It has likewise happened in the past to guys like Jordan. The question is, if Kobe plays "the right way" are you willing to demonstrate your ability to change as well?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

LW said:


> After reading your posts, I understand that's your view of the situation. I can understand that and it's your view anyway, so I'm not entitled to try to force a change.
> 
> I do think that there are a few things you could do: 1) just appreciate Kobe for the basketball talent he is, regardless of what you think of his personal agendas, and 2) give the dude a chance. I'd understand you holding your grudge against him for certain reasons, but I'd also like to know that you (actually, all fans like you) are willing to change. Kobe's 27 now - he's matured and demonstrated his ability to change. It has likewise happened in the past to guys like Jordan. The question is, if Kobe plays "the right way" are you willing to demonstrate your ability to change as well?


I will always hate him, but if he plays 'the right way' I will appreciate him for what he was. I've always maintained that he's the among if not the most talented players in basketball. But basketball is a team game, and his approach keeps him from being the best. All you have to do is listen to the way Phil talks about him after games. There are regularly little digs in there about his approach, not his talent. The best player in the league's coach wouldn't feel the need to continually dig at his game. The best player in the league approaches the game the right way. W/ Kobe, you can see it all over his face and his actions and his words, it is all... about... Kobe. When he talks team this or team that, and my guys this and my guys that it couldn't possibly sound more phony.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*opinion doesn't matter anyway.*



> The question is, if Kobe plays "the right way" are you willing to demonstrate your ability to change as well?


Probably not. For some people, that hateful emotion becomes their fuel, their story. It is their reason to keep pushing on, they are known for it and they feel comfortable milking it. The people who hate in my opinion, don't understand the true nature of competition.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> I will always hate him, but if he plays 'the right way' I will appreciate him for what he was. I've always maintained that he's the among if not the most talented players in basketball. But basketball is a team game, and his approach keeps him from being the best. All you have to do is listen to the way Phil talks about him after games. There are regularly little digs in there about his approach, not his talent. The best player in the league's coach wouldn't feel the need to continually dig at his game. The best player in the league approaches the game the right way. W/ Kobe, you can see it all over his face and his actions and his words, it is all... about... Kobe. When he talks team this or team that, and my guys this and my guys that it couldn't possibly sound more phony.


How do you fancy Kobe in these playoffs, young grasshopper?


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> I will always hate him


I rest my case.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> How do you fancy Kobe in these playoffs, young grasshopper?


Its a few posts up, but I'll reiterate... watching Kobe in these past 2 games *pains me the most*, because he is approaching the game in pretty much entirely 'the right way.' Except, of course, at the end of the last game, where he did his best to blow it by forgetting about his teammates. At least I had that small solace.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

LW said:


> I rest my case.


This is the type of **** that makes the Kobe apologists pretty much unstomachable. I make a post where I say I will appreciate his game if he plays the right way but will never like him ('always hate him'), and you grab onto only the last part w/ your stupid 'I rest my case.'


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Its a few posts up, but I'll reiterate... watching Kobe in these past 2 games *pains me the most*, because he is approaching the game in pretty much entirely 'the right way.' Except, of course, at the end of the last game, where he did his best to blow it by forgetting about his teammates. At least I had that small solace.


So, let me get this straight:

You hate Kobe because he plays/acts this and that.

But when you see him playing team ball, it all goes up in flames, right?


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

it is very debatable who the best player in the NBA right now is between Kobe and Bron...we will always agree to disagree,its just a matter of choice,between the "Best Offensive Player" or the "Best All Around Player"...coz i feel that both are tied for the "Best Player in the NBA" title right now...


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> So, let me get this straight:
> 
> You hate Kobe because he plays/acts this and that.
> 
> But when you see him playing team ball, it all goes up in flames, right?


As I stated earlier I hate his game and his person. If he fixes the game, there is still the person. You Kobe lovers are never satisfied. Its not enough for someone to say that they could appreciate the man's game if he stopped being a selfish SOB, we've got to learn to love him too? Sheesh.


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

Kobe homers can defend Kobe's case all they want,same with Bron homers...but for a pure basketball fan standpoint...they're as equal as you can get...


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> This is the type of **** that makes the Kobe apologists pretty much unstomachable. I make a post where I say I will appreciate his game if he plays the right way but will never like him ('always hate him'), and you grab onto only the last part w/ your stupid 'I rest my case.'


Do you ever wonder why these "apologists" exist? It's because of people that continue to hate him. It's simple as that. Call it karma if you want. If you hate someone, there will be those who will stand up to defend him. It's really not about Kobe either, it's about all things in life. Sometimes you have to realize that the best approach is to drop your hate. If there is nothing to apologize for, there will be no apologists.

We don't need your appreciation. We don't really care about it, because just about everyone appreciates Kobe's ability to play - even his biggest haters. It's like respect. Kobe definately commands it. Instead, it's really about realizing the hate needs to get dropped because it's really childish.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> I would like to say that my disdain for Kobe is split evenly between his person and his game. They both disgust me. And the worst part about watching most of the past two Lakers Phoenix games is that Kobe actually played the right way for the majority of the game. I can only hope its a temporary aberration, and I feel pretty confident it was.


 You hope that it was a temporary aberration? It's quite obvious your disdain for Kobe has everything to do with him as a person, and you use any flaws in his game you can find as an excuse. You're own post makes that pretty clear.

30 years old, and hating a man you don't even know.

I can understand when fans hate Kobe because he's too good, or hate him because he kills their team, but to hate him the way you do... that's actually astonishing.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is how you have crazed fans that physically attack athletes. You are an example of that type of fan. I'm not even trying to insult you, its just creepy to me.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> You hope that it was a temporary aberration? It's quite obvious your disdain for Kobe has everything to do with him as a person, and you use any flaws in his game you can find as an excuse. You're own post makes that pretty clear.
> 
> 30 years old, and hating a man you don't even know.
> 
> ...


Sad is the day a 24 year old has to explain it to his elder. Sad.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

LW said:


> Do you ever wonder why these "apologists" exist? It's because of people that continue to hate him. It's simple as that. Call it karma if you want. If you hate someone, there will be those who will stand up to defend him. It's really not about Kobe either, it's about all things in life. Sometimes you have to realize that the best approach is to drop your hate. If there is nothing to apologize for, there will be no apologists.
> 
> We don't need your appreciation. We don't really care about it, because just about everyone appreciates Kobe's ability to play - even his biggest haters. It's like respect. Kobe definately commands it. Instead, it's really about realizing the hate needs to get dropped because it's really childish.


Sorry man, hate is half of what's great about being a fan. I'll never give it up, and no one ever should. Loving the Nets would only be half as fun if it wasn't complimented by hating the Knicks.

To Hate!!!!  :cheers:


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Tragedy said:


> You hope that it was a temporary aberration? It's quite obvious your disdain for Kobe has everything to do with him as a person, and you use any flaws in his game you can find as an excuse. You're own post makes that pretty clear.
> 
> 30 years old, and hating a man you don't even know.
> 
> ...


See my post above this. Hating is half of what's great about being a fan. It is I who am sad for you, if you cannot appreciate it. I'm a huge JKidd fan, but I don't demand that people respect or love him. Hate him if you like. That's half of what being a fan is all about. Keep your hate in sports and your love in interpersonal relations. Hate is as natural as procreation. Its an essential part of who we are as a species. Better to funnel it into sports fandom than to declare wars all over the globe against peoples you don't understand. Get a little perspective, its just sports.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Come on Paulo, back me up on this. I know you're a kindred spirit.


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

i don't understand all these Kobe homers...Kobe has the respect of almost every damn players in the league,though still bein hate by some media and/or fans of rival players...same with Bron,he's also one of the most criticized,i bet more than Kobe this year...why can't you give him respect too for the effort he put forth in improving his game,same with the respect given to Kobe for bein one of the most competitive play and has the work ethic on par with the best of 'em...let's not blame or hate the players...hate the game,hate the media who's hyping up these players like God,then bashes them like scrubs the moment they made bad decisions,in game and in life in general...


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> See my post above this. Hating is half of what's great about being a fan. It is I who am sad for you, if you cannot appreciate it. I'm a huge JKidd fan, but I don't demand that people respect or love him. Hate him if you like. That's half of what being a fan is all about. Keep your hate in sports and your love in interpersonal relations. Hate is as natural as procreation. Its an essential part of who we are as a species. Better to funnel it into sports fandom than to declare wars all over the globe against peoples you don't understand. Get a little perspective, its just sports.


 Nah man, that's an excuse. Bringing up your 'hate' for the knicks as a nets fan is you trying to buffer your original comments that your hate for kobe goes beyond his game, and towards kobe the person (whom you will never actually know).

I figured you would say something like this, and I waited patiently for it. You can explain it as much as you like, and even try and flip it on me like you are trying to do right now, but it is you who are not realizing that its "just sports."

If it were "just sports" then Kobe as a person wouldn't matter anything to you, and hating him as a player (not as a person) would be quite alright and understandable.

You're just taking it to the next level man.

It is you who should realize its "just sports."


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

TheGodfather said:


> i don't understand all these Kobe homers...Kobe has the respect of almost every damn players in the league,though still bein hate by some media and/or fans of rival players...same with Bron,he's also one of the most criticized,i bet more than Kobe this year...why can't you give him respect too for the effort he put forth in improving his game,same with the respect given to Kobe for bein one of the most competitive play and has the work ethic on par with the best of 'em...let's not blame or hate the players...hate the game,hate the media who's hyping up these players like God,then bashes them like scrubs the moment they made bad decisions,in game and in life in general...


Um... educate me, but where is this thread have we criticized LeBron? Maybe I missed a few posts, but I don't think you'll find a post from me dissing LeBron. I've always felt he was a strong second place for "best player" and I even acknowledge several arguments given by futuristxen for how LeBron and Kobe are both the best.

There is no hate for LeBron here, just SeaNet putting on a one man show at this point with his hate for Kobe.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Tragedy said:


> Nah man, that's an excuse. Bringing up your 'hate' for the knicks as a nets fan is you trying to buffer your original comments that your hate for kobe goes beyond his game, and towards kobe the person (whom you will never actually know).
> 
> I figured you would say something like this, and I waited patiently for it. You can explain it as much as you like, and even try and flip it on me like you are trying to do right now, but it is you who are not realizing that its "just sports."
> 
> ...


Whatever, man. Feel free to think what you like about me.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> Nah man, that's an excuse. Bringing up your 'hate' for the knicks as a nets fan is you trying to buffer your original comments that your hate for kobe goes beyond his game, and towards kobe the person (whom you will never actually know).
> 
> I figured you would say something like this, and I waited patiently for it. You can explain it as much as you like, and even try and flip it on me like you are trying to do right now, but it is you who are not realizing that its "just sports."
> 
> ...


Tragedy, repped.

When you hate a person, it's not sports. It's something within you that hungers for something to prey on. I can understand if you hate the Lakers, if you hate Kobe's fadeaway, if you hate Phil Jackson. When you say things like "I will always hate *him*" regardless of how he plays, that just shows there is something going on that goes beyond fandom.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> As I stated earlier I hate his game and his person. If he fixes the game, there is still the person. You Kobe lovers are never satisfied. Its not enough for someone to say that they could appreciate the man's game if he stopped being a selfish SOB, we've got to learn to love him too? Sheesh.


Who the **** asked you to "love" Kobe, man?

Listen, dude, i feel your hate. And i apreciate (sp?) it. I, too, think that Kobe is a SOB. I've never liked the guy. He comes like a phoney, to me.

But that's my sentiments about him as a PERSON. 

As a BALLER, I''ve always felt that Kobe's game was incomplete. You know, playing with Shaq he could concentrate on defense. He could gamble. His scoring was made easier.

Then Shaq left.

And Kobe played like crap for a whole season.

But this one season is turning me to a believer. As a matter of fact, i should say this last couple of months have made a believer.

Here i was watching that bunch of scrubs named the Los Angeles Lakers playing the All-Mighty Suns, and i started to think: wtf is Kobe playing like this? Why is he not launching triple-teamed 3 pointers?

Then i watched more closely. The teenager who shot .800FT% in his rookie year. The guy who most people hated. And i saw it.

Yup, i saw it. 

Like Magic sacrificing his game. Like Jordan passing te ball around. Like Chuck. And Wilt before all of them. Kobe gets it, i thought. He has learned. He is a different player now.

That's when i fall in love with that SOB all over again.

Again, Seanet, i respect your opinions about Kobe Bryant. I just hope you are not missing what i've been seing.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

And to touch on whether you like a person and his game. With athletes we only really see one side uncut, and that is when they are performing. Everything outside of that one side is the stuff they try to show us - possibly in attempts to look better than they really are, or stuff that is shown to us from other sources - which can be in attempts to bring a bad light to said player.

With that said, I can never judge a player based on who they are off the court, simply because I don't know who they are off the court, nor can I speak with any certainty on their REAL personality - the stuff that's not shown from any side.

I find it interesting that you hate Kobe as a person, but you are a Nets and Jason Kidd fan, a player who was arrested for domestic abuse. You like Jason Kidd, and his image was cleaned up pretty nicely (oh, NOW he wants to blow kisses?) so he's an alright guy? Is it because he's the driving force of your favorite team? 

There are plenty guys who keep their head low that people love that actually lead the worst lives - the guys who are actually 'bad' people, but are good enough at keeping that side away and fans still cheer for them. 

All I know is, I would never wanna run the risk of feeling like a fool because I got caught up in assumptions on what type of person a player is, because its always the ones who keep the lowest profile that you should watch out for. Wouldn't you feel stupid if a player you rooted for was the actual thing that you seem to hate in Kobe as a person?

This is why I can never understand "fanatic." And believe it or not, you ARE a Kobe fanatic. Its just negative.

Also, as a person who can be aloof at times, I can say that it is very possible to come across as phony when you are trying to handle a very public life while keeping yourself private. I would probably come across as phony myself, because I value my privacy and would have some front for the media and others, keeping more complex facets of my person for those closest to me. You don't have to wear who you are on your sleeve at all times - it doesn't always work. Ask Allan Iverson.


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

> LeBron tries to do EVERYTHING. He runs freelance and the entire Cavs offense is just "let's see how much LeBron's physical dominance can carry us." While that means LeBron might average close to a triple-double, his approach to the game lacks discipline and it doesn't allow for a task-specific offensive game plan like what the Lakers are able to command versus the Suns.
> 
> I don't think anyone dominates the game the way Kobe can at this point in time. And yes, that includes LeBron James, who is himself extremely dominant in his respective offense. Much respect to Bron Bron though, but I have re-iterated this point many times - he needs a good coach. Jordan used to freelance as well, but he was always eliminated from the playoffs early. When Jordan found Phil, he disciplined his basketball approach and became the greatest. LeBron needs to find that coach to bring him to the next level he deserves to be in.


1stly,its not Bron's fault that he plays or he's made to play that way...he just does watever he is capable of to help his team win,be it to score,rebound,pass,block shots,steal and so on...2ndly,its not his fault that his teammates play the way they do,if you look at carefully how Bron plays,he creates/makes opportunities for his teammates to score and stuff,but they usually just are not able 2 finish the play...he should have averaged a couple more assists per game...and you should also understand that they have a rookie coach,rookie GM,some new players,injuries to some key players and such,although its not an excuse,let's just give them time to jell,to hav chemistry.so basically,they're just warming up for next year...


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Who the **** asked you to "love" Kobe, man?
> 
> Listen, dude, i feel your hate. And i apreciate (sp?) it. I, too, think that Kobe is a SOB. I've never liked the guy. He comes like a phoney, to me.
> 
> ...


LW and Tragedy seem to feel I cannot hate Kobe if I ever appreciate his game. As for appreciating him... as a rule, I just don't watch him. The past two games I've been able to appreciate what he's doing, but as I said, 'it pains me the most.' I couldn't agree more w/ your comment on his phoniness.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

I got to admit, Duncan has lost a step. Yes it's his injuries but the question is can he recover and become the player he once was?

Therefore, I got to give Kobe the interim mantle (pending Duncan's recovery) the best player in the game right now. He edges out Lebron because of his D. Wade, Dirk, and KG (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because the Wolves' management are idiots and they went 44-38 last year with a diva Cassell and a "I have to feed my kids" Spree who both played WELL below the level they played when the Wolves went 58-24) get honourable mentions.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

You can do what you want. I just cannot understand how you or anyone for that matter can hate someone as a person as deeply as you do, just based off what you see.

At 30 you should be wise enough to know that's foolish, but I digress.


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

nobody...i mean nobody,can say that Kobe is the "CLEAR CUT Best Player" right now...same with Bron,plain and simple,both of them are the "Best Players" right now and for the years to come...they both had really really great year,to a team and individual success standpoint....so props to both of them!the "2 Best Players of the Game"


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

TheGodfather said:


> nobody...i mean nobody,can say that Kobe is the "CLEAR CUT Best Player" right now...same with Bron,plain and simple,both of them are the "Best Players" right now and for the years to come...they both had really really great year,to a team and individual success standpoint....so props to both of them!the "2 Best Players of the Game"


Please seach the "Best player" thread that was posted like a month ago.

It's Kobe.

"2 Best Players" my ***!


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

for those who say that Kobe is a far better defender than Bron,i bet you're referring to the Kobe of old...coz this year,Kobe is not as good a defender as he used to be and as peeps say he is...same with Bron,he is not a bad defender as peeps say he is...though i admit Kobe stil is a little better,just by a couple of hairs i think...


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

What I don't understand is that you will hate Kobe for his personality, but you won't hate Carter for being one of the laziest players ever and a quitter and playing with no effort, or Kidd who abused his wife, those things you won't hold against your Nets players, but for Kobe you will, why the double standard.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Tragedy said:


> You can do what you want. I just cannot understand how you or anyone for that matter can hate someone as a person as deeply as you do, just based off what you see.
> 
> At 30 you should be wise enough to know that's foolish, but I digress.


lol, you think I take this seriously? This is something to blow of steam when I'm bored. I post here because it entertains me. I say what I feel like saying to entertain myself. I would say that people who love and support Kobe... apologizing and supporting everything he does are the sick ones. The best example was someone (maybe you (its tough to tell the Kobe apologists apart sometimes (hey I just looked, it was you!!!!))) talking about how they were aloof too and could understand how Kobe comes across the way he does and how they would probably come across that way too... :laugh: Yeah, you and Kobe have sooooo much in common. Please, and I'm the one who's foolish. :laugh: I've got a problem because I think too much about Kobe. :laugh: Take a look at your 'aloof' self in the mirror sometime.


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

> Please seach the "Best player" thread that was posted like a month ago.
> 
> It's Kobe.
> 
> "2 Best Players" my ***!


of course you and you're fellow Kobe homers will say that...you're opinion is way too biased and you're thinkin is way too clouded...same with the Bron homers...but if you're a fan of the game 1st and foremost,you will see and understand that they're as equal as u can see and get in terms of impact to the game...


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> What I don't understand is that you will hate Kobe for his personality, but you won't hate Carter for being one of the laziest players ever and a quitter and playing with no effort, or Kidd who abused his wife, those things you won't hold against your Nets players, but for Kobe you will, why the double standard.


Its Kobe's on court personality that I hate. And as for consistency, who cares? Since when are human beings consistent? And why should we be?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> Its Kobe's on court personality that I hate. And as for consistency, who cares? Since when are human beings consistent? And why should we be?


Though admittedly, his off court personality is pretty off-putting too. Btw/ feel free to hate JKidd for the wife-beating incident. And Carter for whatever it is you said.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

TheGodfather said:


> of course you and you're fellow Kobe homers will say that...you're opinion is way too biased and you're thinkin is way too clouded...same with the Bron homers...but if you're a fan of the game 1st and foremost,you will see and understand that they're as equal as u can see and get in terms of impact to the game...


Please don't try to pass judgement on my posts. Read up.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

I can understand the LeBron love. If Kobe is our modern day Michael, LeBron is our modern day Oscar. I just tend to feel Michael was a greater player than Oscar and the same reasons apply for Kobe and LeBron. It really comes down to how each player structured their game around their specific team and offense.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> What I don't understand is that you will hate Kobe for his personality, but you won't hate Carter for being one of the laziest players ever and a quitter and playing with no effort, or Kidd who abused his wife, those things you won't hold against your Nets players, but for Kobe you will, why the double standard.


Because SeaNet is the biggest homer on BBB.Net. This has been established countless times. At least Amareca doesn't even try to pretend he's objective.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

SeaNet, you even admit that you don't watch any of Kobe's games. Why debate in a thread about whether or not Kobe is the best player if you don't even know how he plays?


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

i'm not passing judgement to you,you're post or watever...but Kobe=Bron is far closer to than Kobe>Bron or Bron>Kobe...so i don't understand why you can easily say that Kobe is better or the "Best Player" as if he really is the "CLEAR CUT" best player...its really really close that its politically proper to say that they're equal...


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

> I can understand the LeBron love. If Kobe is our modern day Michael, LeBron is our modern day Oscar. I just tend to feel Michael was a greater player than Oscar and the same reasons apply for Kobe and LeBron. It really comes down to how each player structured their game around their specific team and offense.


whats you're point in sayin that it comes down 2 how they structure their game and stuff?although the logic is right,coz both of them are doin what their team needs in order to win,its pointless to say such in defending the claim that Kobe is the "Best Player" right now...maybe you're tryin to view it in a style standpoint,that in you're opinion,you like Kobe's style of play better than Bron...coz it'l come down to personal preference,and i bet you,if you ask most of the players in the league,they wud easily choose to play with Bron than with Kobe...but i hav to say these,Kobe is very much capable of bein a great all around player,he has the skills to do so...if you observed the way he plays the past 2 games,he is better that way...way better 4 him,his legacy and for his team's success...for Kobe,its a matter of mindset...he just chooses to be a prolific scorer rather than a all around player...wc is really really sad...


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## TwiBlueG35 (Jan 24, 2006)

Prolific Scorer said:


> I Think Kobe is the best in the game right now....but he isn't getting better. It isn't really about if Kobe can hold off LeBron until he's 31, it's how fast LeBron is approaching........look what he's done in his first 3 years, and now an additional 3 years? I Doubt it.
> 
> But I'm really not much for who's the best , i just want to see competitive basketball, period.


Not everyone could constantly improve. Lebron might not be able to play as well as he does today in three years.


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

b4 i sign off,il just repeat this at once...Kobe and Bron are the "2 Best Players" of the game right now,period!


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

It will be Kobe for awhile. LeBron needs to shoot better at the free throw line, the guy is just average and clanks important FT's all the time. LeBron is horrendous at the defensive side of the ball. Also another thing I notice about Lebron already early in his career is he's counting on touch fouls to much when he drives in the paint. The guy needs to learn to take a beating and keep on ticking like real great players do such as Iverson, Jordan, Bird etc Brons time may or may not come, but right now it's Kobe Bryant's NBA.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Kobe is the best IMO... and bron is right behind him... Kobes ability to explode and take over a game offensively is unparalleled... and his D is superior to Bron and many superstar perimeter players...

interesting was yesterday the whole TNT crew proclaiming Kobe the best in the L undisputedly... i actually put stock into wat they say cuz they are past-players not some whacky ESPN analyst... i dont think that this is what makes him the best obviously but it seems the league (coaches, players, etc.) have anointed him the best player... even Charles who has disliked him in the past said hi, tiger, and federer are the only undisputed best in the world in what they do...


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Spriggan said:


> Because SeaNet is the biggest homer on BBB.Net. This has been established countless times. At least Amareca doesn't even try to pretend he's objective.


Yeah. I don't mind SeaNet on a lot of topics related to hoops, he can post some insightful things, but anything and everything remotely related to Kobe Bryant or the New Jersey Nets, he is complete homer/hater, and he lets it affect his opinions. He agreed with a poster in this thread who thinks the Lakers are winning this year _in spite_ of Kobe, which borders on complete denial when it comes right down to it. You can't know the game of basketball and be that blind unless you have some hateful emotion towards the guy and refuse to acknowledge anything positive that he does. 

That said, this thread sucks. Kobe and LeBron are the best players in the game with Tim Duncan on the side waiting to be re-ranked as soon as he returns from injury.


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

Kobe is definately the best but I'd still rather have LBJ on my team for what he'll be in a few years ruling out injury.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23AJ said:


> It will be Kobe for awhile. LeBron needs to shoot better at the free throw line, the guy is just average and clanks important FT's all the time. LeBron is horrendous at the defensive side of the ball. Also another thing I notice about Lebron already early in his career is he's counting on touch fouls to much when he drives in the paint. The guy needs to learn to take a beating and keep on ticking like real great players do such as Iverson, Jordan, Bird etc Brons time may or may not come, but right now it's Kobe Bryant's NBA.


you are still on the horrendous defense bus, in spite of all evidence to the contrary? I thought we had already argued you down to average defense?

As for free throw shooting--didn't stop Shaq from dominating. It's really not a valid criticism.

And to the last point, few players take more contact than Lebron. Those "touch" fouls aren't touch fouls. Lebron is just so strong that everything looks like a touch foul. Ask Caron Butler about trying to foul Lebron. How about that dunk against the Nets with 3 guys hanging on him a few weeks back?

23AJ you prove once again that when it comes to Lebron you don't know what you are talking about.

At least I know how to appreciate both Kobe and Lebron. It must suck to have to irrationally skew their performances to the negative in your mind.

Top 2 players in the game right now. Enjoy it.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Yeah. I don't mind SeaNet on a lot of topics related to hoops, he can post some insightful things, but anything and everything remotely related to Kobe Bryant or the New Jersey Nets, he is complete homer/hater, and he lets it affect his opinions. He agreed with a poster in this thread who thinks the Lakers are winning this year _in spite_ of Kobe, which borders on complete denial when it comes right down to it. You can't know the game of basketball and be that blind unless you have some hateful emotion towards the guy and refuse to acknowledge anything positive that he does.
> 
> That said, this thread sucks. Kobe and LeBron are the best players in the game with Tim Duncan on the side waiting to be re-ranked as soon as he returns from injury.


Hehe I love that you're sticking up for your man Timmy. Don't forget that Kobe had plantar fasciitis last season (2004-2005) and NO ONE showed him love. He was deemed washed up. Still Kobe averaged 27ppg with plantar fasciitis, man. As a Timmy fan, you have more perspective than most here about what that means. 27ppg with that injury is insane, depsite the fact he couldn't lead them back into the playoffs.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

A healthy Duncan is still far significantly better than Kobe or LeBron... 
If LeBron polishes more, which is expected, he will be the best.

Kobe is the best scorer, especially with Phil Jackson giving him the green light to do what ever.

But I think Dwight Howard, Dwayne Wade and a Healthy Amare will make a case next season.


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## Shining Greatness (Feb 22, 2006)

I think Iverson is the best player in the NBA. Kobe is 2nd best. You can go either way with those two. The closet I think is gilbert.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

LW said:


> Hehe I love that you're sticking up for your man Timmy. Don't forget that Kobe had plantar fasciitis last season (2004-2005) and NO ONE showed him love. He was deemed washed up. Still Kobe averaged 27ppg with plantar fasciitis, man. As a Timmy fan, you have more perspective than most here about what that means. 27ppg with that injury is insane, depsite the fact he couldn't lead them back into the playoffs.


Plantar fasciitis is no joke. I've had mild cases of it myself, and as a post player, I know how much it affects your agility. It's like you have to tip toe or be light on your feet all the time, you can't plant at all. Maybe some folks look off the importance of planting, positioning and being able to change directions quickly, and so on, but I understand it all too well.


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

> Kobe is the best IMO... and bron is right behind him... Kobes ability to explode and take over a game offensively is unparalleled... and his D is superior to Bron and many superstar perimeter players...
> 
> interesting was yesterday the whole TNT crew proclaiming Kobe the best in the L undisputedly... i actually put stock into wat they say cuz they are past-players not some whacky ESPN analyst... i dont think that this is what makes him the best obviously but it seems the league (coaches, players, etc.) have anointed him the best player... even Charles who has disliked him in the past said hi, tiger, and federer are the only undisputed best in the world in what they do...



You sure you'll believe everythin Chuck says?At times he's as stupid as anybody with his comments...though there are times he's right on the money.I remember him sayin b4 also that Bron,Tiger and Roger are similar or somethin in that manner in some ways or the other...TNT crew are great,better than some other analysts out there,but obviously,Chuck and Kenny don't want to proclaim Bron as equal to Kobe or somethin just to be politically proper,by that,i mean the age factor...Chuck specifically has critiziced Bron many times in the past and time and again,he was proven wrong...though he never apologized or take back stupid things he said bout Bron,he don't need to...i'd rather Chuck criticize Bron,coz someday soon he will devour his words...barring any major injury or unfortunate events dat will occur to Bron or somethin...he will be a scary **** come next year and years to come...so watch out!


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

SmarterThanUrAvgBear said:


> Has Kobe officially been declared #1? how long will he have that title?


IMO, he's been the best player in the league since LA was winning titles. How long? I got Lebron and Kobe at the top of this list for at least the next 5 years, likely more.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

IV said:


> IMO, he's been the best player in the league since LA was winning titles. How long? I got Lebron and Kobe at the top of this list for at least the next 5 years, likely more.


Yeah I always thought Kobe was the best since 2000. Of course Duncan is the more conservative choice for that honor and I can go either way. It just feels like to me when Kobe struggled last year (2004-2005) he fell off the face of the earth because of plantar fasciitis. But now that Duncan has the same injury, he gets afforded all of the excuses. Having Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili carry him a bit (or a lot) was a luxury that Kobe didn't have.

Minus his personal ups and downs and injuries, Kobe's been pretty consistently great and that level of tenure gets him the nod above LeBron in any of these conversations.


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

> IMO, he's been the best player in the league since LA was winning titles. How long? I got Lebron and Kobe at the top of this list for at least the next 5 years, likely more.





> Yeah I always thought Kobe was the best since 2000. Of course Duncan is the more conservative choice for that honor and I can go either way. It just feels like to me when Kobe struggled last year (2004-2005) he fell off the face of the earth because of plantar fasciitis. But now that Duncan has the same injury, he gets afforded all of the excuses. Having Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili carry him a bit (or a lot) was a luxury that Kobe didn't have.
> 
> Minus his personal ups and downs and injuries, Kobe's been pretty consistently great and that level of tenure gets him the nod above LeBron in any of these conversations.


whoa!i bet Shaq,KG and TD doesnt exist no more d last 5 years or so?not to mention Tmac and AI...the homerism is quite obvious...i can say he was top 5 since 2000...but not the best of em all!


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

please...wake up you little kids,don't daydream or somethin!you're just makin yourselves look oh so stupid!


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

TheGodfather said:


> whoa!i bet Shaq,KG and TD doesnt exist no more d last 5 years or so?not to mention Tmac and AI...the homerism is quite obvious...i can say he was top 5 since 2000...but not the best of em all!


TD I mentioned. TMac was out of this world for one season. KG was never winning anything. Shaq had Kobe, and now without Kobe he is struggling/declining. Like I said, Kobe has been consistently on top, or top 5 as you admit. When you're consistently on top like TD, even though you might not be the best every year, you are the best over that span. Like I said, I could go either way with Kobe or Duncan.


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## TheGodfather (Mar 9, 2006)

> *Yeah I always thought Kobe was the best since 2000*. Of course Duncan is the more conservative choice for that honor and I can go either way. It just feels like to me when Kobe struggled last year (2004-2005) he fell off the face of the earth because of plantar fasciitis. *But now that Duncan has the same injury, he gets afforded all of the excuses*. Having Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili carry him a bit (or a lot) was a luxury that Kobe didn't have.
> 
> Minus his personal ups and downs and injuries, Kobe's been pretty consistently great and that level of tenure gets him the nod above LeBron in any of these conversations.





> TD I mentioned. TMac was out of this world for one season. *KG was never winning anything*. *Shaq had Kobe, and now without Kobe he is struggling/declining*. Like I said, Kobe has been consistently on top, or top 5 as you admit. When you're consistently on top like TD, even though you might not be the best every year, you are the best over that span. Like I said, I could go either way with Kobe or Duncan


you gotta check you're statements there kid...you said at 1st that Kobe was the best since 2000...theres a big difference between *"the best" and "one of the best or top 5"*,so please...be clear with what you're sayin,aight?also,nobody made excuses for Timmy with regards to his injuries...did you hear anybody said or claimed that Timmy is the "Best Player in the Game" this year?i dont think so...so its wrong to use that as your defense to Kobe's "off" year 04-05...another thing...its quite obvious that both Shaq and Kobe struggled when they parted ways,maybe more on Shaq,but its natural coz he's gettin old already...and nobody claimed also that Shaq is the "Best Player" the past 3-4 years...maybe one of the best,but not clear cut best...so you better double check what you intend to post 1st b4 writin it...with regards to KG,it was said only in 03-04 that he was said to be the best player in the game,him and Timmy,he's deserving to be called so that 2 seasons...and we're talkin here of Best Player,not Best team or what...he obviously is very unlucky and unfortunate to be in a worse organization...its not an excuse for not winning,but he played night in and night out like the best player in the game...


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

LW said:


> *Yeah I always thought Kobe was the best since 2000*. Of course Duncan is the more conservative choice for that honor and I can go either way. It just feels like to me when Kobe struggled last year (2004-2005) he fell off the face of the earth because of plantar fasciitis. But now that Duncan has the same injury, he gets afforded all of the excuses. Having Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili carry him a bit (or a lot) was a luxury that Kobe didn't have.
> 
> Minus his personal ups and downs and injuries, Kobe's been pretty consistently great and that level of tenure gets him the nod above LeBron in any of these conversations.


:laugh: What a pathetic Kobe worshipper. Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team in 2000.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> :laugh: What a pathetic Kobe worshipper. Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team in 2000.


2000 as in the season starting in 2000, ending in 2001. The second championship season. And yes, he carried that team through the playoffs at times, timesharing with Shaq.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Hell yeah, Kobe is the BEST mother ****er in the game. HAND DOWN. Kobe IS that dude, he IS that ninja. 









"Hold me back.."


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## Pnack (Aug 23, 2005)

Talent wise, I would have to say yes.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

You know you're the best player in the game when:
a) you can outscore a team by yourself, and score 81 points by yourself in a game.
or 
b) when you rip it a different style, play the way Steve Nash does, and then go out and do it better than him...


How else do you want it?


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

The MAMBA said:


> You know you're the best player in the game when:
> a) you can outscore a team by yourself, and score 81 points by yourself in a game.
> or
> b) when you rip it a different style, play the way Steve Nash does, and then go out and do it better than him...
> ...


Yo, I hear when Kobe goes #24, he'll play center and rip the league a new one


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

Ok, where is the I hate Kobe fan club? Count me in. 

I can't find any other talented player that is classless. Kobe loves punishing people, finger pointing and basically just wants to start the fight every single time he has the chance. And he rarely gets a T for joining the fight. lol I've had it.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

LW said:


> Yo, I hear when Kobe goes #24, he'll play center and rip the league a new one


CHEA!!!

Watch out Yao and Shaq, "You're Next"...


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

jibikao said:


> Ok, where is the I hate Kobe fan club? Count me in.
> 
> I can't find any other talented player that is classless. Kobe loves punishing people, finger pointing and basically just wants to start the fight every single time he has the chance. And he rarely gets a T for joining the fight. lol I've had it.


Are you talking about sticking up for other teammates getting picked on? Jordan used to do that all the time, by standing up for his teammates. He's the face of the team, thats what leaders do.

Cry me a river, build a bridge, then get over it, scoobie.....

You're a :clown:


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

jibikao:


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## CbobbyB (Feb 16, 2006)

damn Mamba, get off of Kobes nuts, lol

you are obsessed with the man.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

jibikao said:


> Ok, where is the I hate Kobe fan club? Count me in.
> 
> I can't find any other talented player that is classless. Kobe loves punishing people, finger pointing and basically just wants to start the fight every single time he has the chance. And he rarely gets a T for joining the fight. lol I've had it.


Are you serious? I've heard ALL the reasons, but now Kobe gets a new hate-me-club member for sticking up for his teammates? Nice.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> Are you talking about sticking up for other teammates getting picked on? Jordan used to do that all the time, by standing up for his teammates. He's the face of the team, thats what leaders do.
> 
> Cry me a river, build a bridge, then get over it, scoobie.....
> 
> You're a :clown:


Hey, Kobe is still very talented. :clown: 

But he can be a dick, whereas Duncan is like 100 more classy than him. 

There is a difference between sticking up for teammates and looking to fight. I am sure Kobe wasn't trying to break the fight when Brown ELBOWED Diaw first, then STARRED down at Diaw. That should be two Ts by the way. Kobe finger pointed at Nash for no reasons. I don't even know why he always yells at Nash when the problem was between Brown and Diaw. 

Hey, the good news is Kobe is still the most talented player in NBA. But he can be a dick. I can see why so many people posted messages about Kobe elbowing. I fully understand now.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

CbobbyB said:


> damn Mamba, get off of Kobes nuts, lol
> 
> you are obsessed with the man.


Naw, its called being proud of the basketball player...and how he figuratively b1tch smacks all you haters through his play. Because of all of you who complain about Kobe, it's obvious you don't know jack sh1t about basketball. :biggrin:


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## CbobbyB (Feb 16, 2006)

ok.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

LW said:


> Are you serious? I've heard ALL the reasons, but now Kobe gets a new hate-me-club member for sticking up for his teammates? Nice.


You guys are so delusional. It's beyond pathetic. Nash sticks up for his teammate too and more likely he tries to calm things down. Kobe's way is to JUMP IN, PUSH HIS WAY, FINGER POINTING THE WRONG PERSON AND BASICALLY CAUSE THE WHOLE THING more serious than it was.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Dude didn't notice Kobe sticking up for punks who actually started the fight, like Steve Nash...Tim Thomas, etc.


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

overall: yes


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

CbobbyB said:


> ok.


lol, MAMBA is just so hyped from the Lakers game I'm betting.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> Naw, its called being proud of the basketball player...and how he figuratively b1tch smacks all you haters through his play. Because of all of you who complain about Kobe, it's obvious you don't know jack sh1t about basketball. :biggrin:


It's called being a DICK.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

LW said:


> lol, MAMBA is just so hyped from the Lakers game I'm betting.


That's right. :biggrin: 

You too?


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

jibikao said:


> You guys are so delusional. It's beyond pathetic. Nash sticks up for his teammate too and more likely he tries to calm things down. Kobe's way is to JUMP IN, PUSH HIS WAY, FINGER POINTING THE WRONG PERSON AND BASICALLY CAUSE THE WHOLE THING more serious than it was.


Steve Nash? Is that you?


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

jibikao said:


> DICK.


Don't be mad your boy Nash started the fights, but backed down the second Kobe came into the equation. He probably had nightmares of getting T-bagged, again...


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> Dude didn't notice Kobe sticking up for punks who actually started the fight, like Steve Nash...Tim Thomas, etc.


Nast started the fight? Which fight??? You tell me. Brown was f**king starring down at Diaw. You call that a fight that caused by Nash??? 

Tim Thomas got pulled down in the air. He has the right to be pissed about. But guess what, Kobe came in, PUSHED DIAW and caused 3-4 people collided...and Daiw got a T who did not even try to cause a fight. Oh my god...


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## CbobbyB (Feb 16, 2006)

LW said:


> lol, MAMBA is just so hyped from the Lakers game I'm betting.


LoL! hell yea...i dont feel like arguing right now.

i'll catch him again *if and when* they lose (although im actually rootin' for them) lol


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

LW said:


> Steve Nash? Is that you?


Haha, I know right. When did Kobe actually start a fight? He finished them.

Nash hits Sasha for no reason, Kobe steps in..Nash b1tches out.
Tim Thomas goes after Luke Walton, Kobe stands up for him, and send Nash packing again after he gets into the equation...


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> Don't be mad your boy Nash started the fights, but backed down the second Kobe came into the equation. He probably had nightmares of getting T-bagged, again...


As far as I know, Nash didn't back down but on the other note, Nash isn't being the dick one.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

jibikao said:


> Nash isn't being the dick one.


Because his haircut and look makes his sexual identity ambiguous? :angel:


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> Haha, I know right. When did Kobe actually start a fight? He finished them.
> 
> Nash hits Sasha for no reason, Kobe steps in..Nash b1tches out.
> Tim Thomas goes after Luke Walton, Kobe stands up for him, and send Nash packing again after he gets into the equation...


Nash "hits" Sasha? My god, did you guys even watch?? Sasha bumped into Nash (he fouled by the way) who didn't want that dude to touch him. He just wants to let go of his hand. Nash walked away and guess what, Kobe RAN IN the next .5s and act like he wants to punch somebody.


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## CbobbyB (Feb 16, 2006)

:argue:


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

jibikao said:


> Nash "hits" Sasha? My god, did you guys even watch?? Sasha bumped into Nash (he fouled by the way) who didn't want that dude to touch him. He just wants to let go of his hand. Nash walked away and guess what, Kobe RAN IN the next .5s and act like he wants to punch somebody.


Yo man, your views are pretty skewed. Game 2 is long forgotten (except the dunk) and that incident needs to get put behind us. Game 3, I felt Kobe was being overprotective, but you have to admit Nash was trying to stick up for his guys as well. These two are the leaders of their respective teams - cut Kobe as much slack as you would Nash.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

jibikao is just pissy cause Kobe is the real MVP, and his boy Nash's squad is currently down 2-1.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

LW said:


> Yo man, your views are pretty skewed. Game 2 is long forgotten (except the dunk) and that incident needs to get put behind us. Game 3, I felt Kobe was being overprotective, but you have to admit Nash was trying to stick up for his guys as well. These two are the leaders of their respective teams - cut Kobe as much slack as you would Nash.


He could never do that. He has his hate goggles on.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

The MAMBA said:


> He could never do that. He has his hate goggles on.


Yeah lots of haters never get off the hate. Kobehate is like cigarettes - bad for your basketball health, but you just get addicted to it. Let's apply the patch one at a time


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

LW said:


> Yeah lots of haters never get off the hate. Kobehate is like cigarettes - bad for your basketball health, but you just get addicted to it. Let's apply the patch one at a time


Yeah, it's hard man... fighting an uphill battle.


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## GBFanJ (Dec 17, 2003)

I still say that Kobe Bryant is a good individual player, but a HORRIBLE team player. So, no, he isn't the best player in the NBA right now and will never reach that. He's a selfish player who only cares about the money and doesn't play for the game anymore.


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

LW said:


> Yeah lots of haters never get off the hate. Kobehate is like cigarettes - bad for your basketball health, but you just get addicted to it. Let's apply the patch one at a time


rep, nice analogy.


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## www.sportsinferno.com (Apr 22, 2006)

GBFanJ said:


> I still say that Kobe Bryant is a good individual player, but a HORRIBLE team player. So, no, he isn't the best player in the NBA right now and will never reach that. He's a selfish player who only cares about the money and doesn't play for the game anymore.


You might want to start watching the games...instead of thinking how Kobe played back 2-4 years ago... :cheers:


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

It still amazes me that a guy who is one of the five best scorers this league has ever seen can go out and completely dominate a game without scoring. He is just mentally one of the all-time greats and compliments his top of the line talent perfectly.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It still amazes me that a guy who is one of the five best scorers this league has ever seen can go out and completely dominate a game without scoring. He is just mentally one of the all-time greats and compliments his top of the line talent perfectly.


Wow.

You're about to make me cry. Ok no. But that was touching from a dude that knows his basketball to give props to Kobe's mental game. I've seen flashes of his mental dominance since 2000 (and when I brought it up, some dudes were dissing me) but now the world gets to enjoy it a bit as well.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It still amazes me that a guy who is one of the five best scorers this league has ever seen can go out and completely dominate a game without scoring. He is just mentally one of the all-time greats and compliments his top of the line talent perfectly.


Exactly. Everyone thinks he's so one dimensional and all he can do is score, score, score. But look how he changed his style of play for this series. He's the main facilitator of the the offense and is playing somewhat similar to how he was during the championship threepeat run. Even without scoring 30+ all series, he's been playing great ball despite a low shooting percentage. Just goes to show you, there's more to his game than just scoring.

As far as the original question of the thread, I'd say yes, but LeBron is closing the gap quickly. Instead of all those TMac/Kobe debates we had on this board for so many years, we'll be seeing Lebron/Kobe for the next 2-3 years.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Doesn't it tell you something when Kobe is always on the other end of the comparison? Kobe-LeBron, Kobe-TMac, Kobe-Wade, Kobe-This, Kobe-That.

The only guy I've seen Kobe compared to is MJ.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> You know you're the best player in the game when:
> a) you can outscore a team by yourself *when you want*, and score 81 points by yourself in a game *when you want*.
> or
> b) *Then when people hate on you for doing that * you rip it a different style, play the way Steve Nash does, and then go out and do it better than him *when you want*...
> ...


I fixed it for you The MAMBA. :cheers:


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

LW said:


> Doesn't it tell you something when Kobe is always on the other end of the comparison? Kobe-LeBron, Kobe-TMac, Kobe-Wade, Kobe-This, Kobe-That.
> 
> The only guy I've seen Kobe compared to is MJ.


That would be because Kobe is the standard and *everyone* on these boards understands that.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

peoples arguments for Nash being the MVP was he made his team better....


Kobe is doing the same now....WHEN IT MATTERS


so eh, Nash can have his MVP


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## sic_D (May 5, 2005)

Lamar Odom for MVP.


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## eaglewu (Feb 21, 2005)

Yes, he is the best player


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

eaglewu said:


> Yes, he is the best player


I concur.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

GBFanJ said:


> I still say that Kobe Bryant is a good individual player, but a HORRIBLE team player. So, no, he isn't the best player in the NBA right now and will never reach that. He's a selfish player who only cares about the money and doesn't play for the game anymore.


Kobe could average 10 ppg, and 20 dimes per game for the rest of his career...and you'd still have the same outlook.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Anyone else a little surprised by the results of this poll? I was seriously expecting Kobe to notch more "no" than "yes" votes, much less this huge discrepancy. I guess the hate for him has subsided tremendously since last season. Or maybe people aren't allowing their hatred or dislike of the player as a person to cloud their judgements of him as a basketball player. Too bad that isn't how it's always been. Pretty tough to deny what Kobe has done/is doing this season, though. Unrelenting haters like SeaNet still do and embarrass themselves in the process. When you start talking about how it "pains" you when a player you hate actually plays the way that you believe "the game is meant to be played", you've got some issues to resolve.

Basketball's meant to be enjoyed, and its talented players appreciated. I can't imagine how curmudgeons like that and Charley Rosen, with their neverending contemptuous remarks on the game and its players, ever get any enjoyment out of watching basketball.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Game. Winner.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Hey LW, you saw what my man was doing right? Definition of clutch. Send it into OT on a floater, then nails the game winner over 2 dudes. Oh how sweet it is is to keep killing the fradulent MVP.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

The MAMBA said:


> Hey LW, you saw what my man was doing right? Definition of clutch. Send it into OT on a floater, then nails the game winner over 2 dudes. Oh how sweet it is is to keep killing the fradulent MVP.


\

But but but...kobe's stats in the clutch are horrible. We all know Kobe is a choker, and Melo is the real clutch king. Right guys? Right? Righhhhhht. :clown:


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> \
> 
> But but but...kobe's stats in the clutch are horrible. We all know Kobe is a choker, and Melo is the real clutch king. Right guys? Right? Righhhhhht. :clown:


If by dissappearing in the post-season is clutch? Then yes, Melo is the clutchest star in the league.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

The MAMBA said:


> Hey LW, you saw what my man was doing right? Definition of clutch. Send it into OT on a floater, then nails the game winner over 2 dudes. Oh how sweet it is is to keep killing the fradulent MVP.


You know it. Best player. This thread should be locked for the ridiculousness of even having a poll.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

The jumper was a killer, but that floater to get the game into overtime was ridiculous. Almost a side-floater and he had his hand under the ball as he was going up. That is an unbelievably difficult shot for any basketball player. Great touch.


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## abwowang (Mar 7, 2006)

honestly, 

before last night i thot lebron was best player. but as of RIGHT now, i have no doubt in my mind kobe is.


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## Cormegadadon (May 1, 2006)

what so scary about kobe is after watching him in the post season.

Many people who place lebron higher than him would use James and how he gets other players involved. 

now seeing kobe do the same thing you wonder. it's not what kobe can't do it's what he chooses not to do. 

to me i agree he is the best player on the planet seeing what he does.


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

Cormegadadon said:


> what so scary about kobe is after watching him in the post season.
> 
> Many people who place lebron higher than him would use James and how he gets other players involved.
> 
> ...


Not a strong argument at all.

It's not that Lebron CAN'T ignore his teammates and average 35 a game either. He just chooses not to. And "choosing" to play better basketball more often is one of the virtues of a better player...


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

EGarrett said:


> And "choosing" to play better basketball more often is one of the virtues of a better player...


You don't play the same team 82 times and in the playoffs. 

Some teams, Kobe does have to score 40, because none of his teammates can take advantage of their matchup. This series, Odom, Kwame, Luke and just about everyone can take advantage of their matchup. So Kobe is playing more well rounded and has lightened up on the scoring load. 

You play the way that gives you the best chance to win basketball games. That's what Kobe Bryant does. I don't want my franchise player going out and playing the exact same way every night, ignoring the differences in the opponent. You have to assess strengths and weakness of both teams and figure where your best chances lie, and adjust accordingly. 

Kobe Bryant has been playing "better basketball" the whole year, because "better basketball" is doing what's best for the team's chances to win. It's not better basketball when you go out and play unselfish team basketball every night without any awareness of the mismatches your team has over the opposition. That may be more "hoosiers" friendly, but being able to adjust to the opposition and attack their weakness is what I consider "better basketball". That's what will win the most games.


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## Cormegadadon (May 1, 2006)

EGarrett said:


> Not a strong argument at all.
> 
> It's not that Lebron CAN'T ignore his teammates and average 35 a game either. He just chooses not to. And "choosing" to play better basketball more often is one of the virtues of a better player...



who's arguing i feel kobe is the best end of story


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> You don't play the same team 82 times and in the playoffs.
> 
> Some teams, Kobe does have to score 40, because none of his teammates can take advantage of their matchup. This series, Odom, Kwame, Luke and just about everyone can take advantage of their matchup. So Kobe is playing more well rounded and has lightened up on the scoring load.
> 
> ...


Superb post, Patches.

Unfortunately, i havent's had the chance to watch a single Lakers-Suns game (damned portuguese TV!), so the first thing i do is log into the Net the following day. Obviously, at the box chart, the first thing i notice is points scored. and Kobe hasn't been scoring. But then i look around and i see 10 rebounds from Kobe; another game, 8 assists, another, clutch baskets.

Kobe's game this post season is not for the stats-keepers. Kobe is playing acording to plan, wich is to take advantage of the frontcourt mismatches. So he becomes the "facilitator", wich is the role Odom had during the regular season. I've read somewhere that if the NBA credited as an assist the last-pass-to-an-assist, Kobe would be averaging 20 a game. It's a different role. But it's working. 

Kobe's ability to play the game plan is what's surprising, to me. A mature Kobe Bryant? Good grief.


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## ChiStoffs (May 1, 2006)

Kobe playing like LeBron?????? Are you kidding me. Kobe is by far the best player in the game and the MVP. LeBron has a far better supporting cast of talent and is in a weaker conference with roughly the same record as the Lakers. Also, an MVP can change his game to help the team in anyway. Kobe can score 60 or he can play the way he has been playing in the playoffs. LeBron hasn't developed that ability yet. Also, the defense factor is so far apart it's not even worth mentioning. LeBron is a very good player. Kobe is still better.


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> You don't play the same team 82 times and in the playoffs.
> 
> Some teams, Kobe does have to score 40, because none of his teammates can take advantage of their matchup. This series, Odom, Kwame, Luke and just about everyone can take advantage of their matchup. So Kobe is playing more well rounded and has lightened up on the scoring load.
> 
> ...


Of course, ignoring and pissing off your teammates for 90% of the year is the sure path to leadership and team cohesion. That's why everyone deserts Iverson and Kobe's teams. And that's why Kobe didn't bother to play this way during the regular season, instead dropping 40+ on them regularly.



PauloCatarino said:


> Superb post, Patches.


BTW, guys, don't forget to change your forehead tattoos from "8" to "24" at the end of the year.


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## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

EGarrett said:


> Of course, ignoring and pissing off your teammates for 90% of the year is the sure path to leadership and team cohesion. That's why everyone deserts Iverson and Kobe's teams. And that's why Kobe didn't bother to play this way during the regular season, instead dropping 40+ on them regularly.
> 
> 
> BTW, guys, don't forget to change your forehead tattoos from "8" to "24" at the end of the year.


Oh come on. That was PHIL'S game plan for the regular season. Phil wanted Odom to take a step back and let Kobe carry the load. If both Kobe AND Odom had been trying to dominate the team all year long, guys like Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Sasha Vujacic would not have the confidence to be part of the offensive gameplan. 

The team has grown leaps and bounds, all because Odom played passively to a fault (Jackson's orders) so that they remained involved and learned to be aggressive WITH Kobe being aggressive. It's not that Kobe is a ballhog, you just have to learn to be aggressive WITH him. They're doing that now and look at the results.


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

magic_bryant said:


> Oh come on. That was PHIL'S game plan for the regular season. Phil wanted Odom to take a step back and let Kobe carry the load.


Yeah, because Phil Jackson knows that there's no way that a star shooting guard and a do-everything point forward can be the the core of a winning team...



> If both Kobe AND Odom had been trying to dominate the team all year long, guys like Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Sasha Vujacic would not have the confidence to be part of the offensive gameplan.


And the way "Phil" executed the gameplan, Kwame and Smush and Sasha WERE part of the offense?



> The team has grown leaps and bounds, all because Odom played passively to a fault (Jackson's orders) so that they remained involved and learned to be aggressive WITH Kobe being aggressive. It's not that Kobe is a ballhog


I'll just stop you right there before your own head goes blue-screen and crashes from the logical glitch that is caused with you guys when the words "Kobe" and "ballhog" are in the same sentence.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

You would have to have hate goggles on, while sipping hateraide, and pissing on a SLAM with Kobe on the cover to not admit he is one of, if not the best player in the league. And as blasphemous as it is to some of you, to even compare someone to Jordan... Kobe's season this year is comparable to some of Mike's best seasons. Is Mike still at this point the better player? I believe so...but some of you will hate to hear this, maybe cause its the truth, or because not many are ever willing to except it, Kobe is on the verge of catching up with MJ as a player and as a showmen. Kobe is the first person since Mike that has the "control switch" for their game. They can turn it on and off as they please, and completely dominate, and hit the shots that are most crucial. Kobe is offensively, more talented and skillfull then MJ was. Real Talk.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

EGarrett said:


> Yeah, because Phil Jackson knows that there's no way that a star shooting guard and a do-everything point forward can be the the core of a winning team...
> 
> And the way "Phil" executed the gameplan, Kwame and Smush and Sasha WERE part of the offense?
> 
> I'll just stop you right there before your own head goes blue-screen and crashes from the logical glitch that is caused with you guys when the words "Kobe" and "ballhog" are in the same sentence.


Shaq is that you?


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## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

No. That's the point. Those guys WEREN'T a part of the offense. Once they began to learn the offense and the spots that they liked using to score within the offense, they started BECOMING a part of the offense. Those guys learned, through watching Kobe shoot 27 FGA per game, two things: 

A) Where their own scoring options are in the triangle. Kwame learned that he was, in fact, better on the block with his back to the basket. Smush learned that when the ball swings to his side of the court, that he was better on dribble drives. Sasha learned to move further away from the ball on the opposite side of the court when it was in the post, so that on the kickout and ball reversal, it would leave him open in the corners and on the wings. Luke learned that he could be an effective Post option.

and 

B) It taught them that if they don't stand up for themselves and hold themselves accountable for not getting their shots, then they wouldn't get the shots. They learned that if they were aggressive, they would get the shots that they needed. But standing around and waiting for Kobe to do something spectacular would only net the team 45 wins, no matter how dominant he is. Now, they're out there being aggressive even if Kobe IS on the court. 

Watch the games of the last 2 months of the season. I think I began noticing their collective triangle knowledge grow in the Hornets game that was the night after the Spurs game that LA lost. The team was beginning to become aggressive. LO was beginning to post up. Smush wasn't settling on the perimeter as much. Luke was posting. Etc. 

They just began to "make things happen" for themselves. Kobe's not a Nash who will dribble 75% of the clock away in an attempt to find the shot for his team. The triangle is designed to have 5 Triple-threat players. It CAN NOT rely on one or two guys to create for everyone else. The other guys learned through failure, that they had to accept that they were just as accountable for not getting their shots as Kobe or Lamar was.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> You don't play the same team 82 times and in the playoffs.
> 
> Some teams, Kobe does have to score 40, because none of his teammates can take advantage of their matchup. This series, Odom, Kwame, Luke and just about everyone can take advantage of their matchup. So Kobe is playing more well rounded and has lightened up on the scoring load.
> 
> ...



This post pretty much sums it up perfectly. Everyone thinking Kobe has suddenly changed into a new player is cracking me up. He is about wins. 

And the best way of beating Phoenix is for him to execute the playmaker role, and make sure the matchup problems are taken advantage of. 

The team is improving and peaking at the right time, but Kobe will be called on again to score when the young core of Walton/Odom/Brown/Parker have trouble.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

EGarrett said:


> Of course, ignoring and pissing off your teammates for 90% of the year is the sure path to leadership and team cohesion. That's why everyone deserts Iverson and Kobe's teams. And that's why Kobe didn't bother to play this way during the regular season, instead dropping 40+ on them regularly.


Pissing off his teammates so much that they're good enough to beat the 2nd seed 54 win Suns. And maybe even get to the WCF. Yeah, I'm sure his teammates will be pissed at that. 



> BTW, guys, don't forget to change your forehead tattoos from "8" to "24" at the end of the year.


Better than being a person whose entire purpose here is to obsessively watch a team and player they hate and then talk about it on a message board. Even sadder is when that person truly believes his opinion is worth a damn.


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## KobeIsOverrated (Apr 23, 2006)

LeBron > Kobe


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

EHL said:


> Pissing off his teammates so much that they're good enough to beat the 2nd seed 54 win Suns. And maybe even get to the WCF. Yeah, I'm sure his teammates will be pissed at that.


Did you know that Kobe Bryant has actually been in the NBA for years and years before this playoff series? It's true.

To quote the movie City of God..."delinquents don't quit. They just take breaks."



> And the best way of beating Phoenix is for him to execute the playmaker role, and make sure the matchup problems are taken advantage of.


Then why didn't he do that against Phoenix during the regular season?



> Better than being a person whose entire purpose here is to obsessively watch a team and player they hate and then talk about it on a message board. Even sadder is when that person truly believes his opinion is worth a damn.


Your utter lack of a decent comeback has been noted.

(btw, you have 10,000+ posts and Kobe in both your avatar and sig. Do you realize how ridiculous you look trying to claim I'M posting obsessively on a message board?)



The MAMBA said:


> Kobe is on the verge of catching up with MJ as a player and as a showmen.


When Jordan took all the shots, he averaged more points than Kobe on a better percentage. Kobe isn't touching Jordan as a scorer.

Later in Jordan's career, after he had sense pounded into him by the Detroit Pistons (something that will never happen with Kobe), Jordan became a complete player. That's the guy that people like Kobe Bryant and Iverson will never...ever touch.

Now, any other MambaBryantKobeRulz8-24 dudes around that might have some real points to make?


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

EGarrett

You seem to have confidence in your convictions and beliefs about Kobe. You are so faithfull in your convictions about Kobe that you totally ignore anything Kobe does that is contrary to your beliefs. 

You're the type of guy who when Shaq was traded thought the Lakers had made a mistake that would set them back 5-7 years, and ran around saying Kobe could never lead a team to the playoffs. You're the type of guy who when Kobe scored 81, pointed out he had 0 assist, and labeled him a ballhog who isolates his teammates. You're the type of guy who when the Lakers made the playoffs said, "So! If Kobe was so good he would be better than a 7 seed, besides who cares he will lose to the Suns in 5 games anyways." You're the type of guy who when Kobe turns down his scoring and gets his teammates involved says, "So, why wasn't he doing that all year? Plus, had he scored 40+ points in games 1 and 5 his team would have won!" You're the type of guy who when Kobe and the Lakers have a 3-2 series lead going back to LA, says "So, the NBA wants Kobe in the Conference Finals." Yor're the type of guy who refers to Kobe in insensitive terms such as rapist and adulturer whenever possible to further fuel and validate the hatred you have in your heart about Kobe. 

In other words, you're the type of guy who simply doesn't like Kobe for whatever reason you decide at the moment, so arguing and trying to prove to you that Kobe is this or that proves nothing to you. You simply are a hater of Kobe Bryant and arguing with you about him is pointless.


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

Kobe is definitly #1 in my humble opinion.


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## Nash13MVP (May 2, 2006)

LeBron James isn't to far behind IMO.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

EGarrett said:


> Of course, ignoring and pissing off your teammates for 90% of the year is the sure path to leadership and team cohesion. That's why everyone deserts Iverson and Kobe's teams. And that's why Kobe didn't bother to play this way during the regular season, instead dropping 40+ on them regularly.


Does irrational hate always make you want to make things up? Everything you've said here has no credibility. Lakers overachieved this year, and you can't overachieve without your leader and best player doing what's best for the team. Bottom line. 

But if you want to make comments about chucking shots, pissing off teammates, rape and other generalizations that Kobe haters fall back to satisfy their hatred for the guy, by all means. Just don't expect anyone who knows what they're talking about to take you serious. 



EGarrett said:


> BTW, guys, don't forget to change your forehead tattoos from "8" to "24" at the end of the year.


Kobe is one of my favorite players, but it's pretty sad that your kind (Kobe haters) talk about him more than my kind. I would wager that I would see someone walking around with a forehead tattoo of "Kobe is a rapist" before I saw someone with "8" or "24". Kobe haters are that pathetic.


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

ralaw said:


> EGarrett
> 
> You seem to have confidence in your convictions and beliefs about Kobe. You are so faithfull in your convictions about Kobe that you totally ignore anything Kobe does that is contrary to your beliefs.


If I totally ignored everything Kobe did that was contrary to my beliefs, then how would I have formed beliefs about him in the first place?



> You're the type of guy who when Shaq was traded thought the Lakers had made a mistake that would set them back 5-7 years,


They did a mistake and it has set them back quite a few years.

The Lakers won three championships in a row with Shaq. You don't think it'll be 5-7 years at least before they can win another ring?



> and ran around saying Kobe could never lead a team to the playoffs.


On the contrary. People like Iverson, Kobe and McGrady have a track record of getting teams to the playoffs by jacking shots all day. They just don't win much beyond that.

As evidence, note that Kobe's team has gone up on Phoenix by SHARING the ball, not by Kobe shooting his arm off.

If he kept playing this way good things would continue to happen, but we know Kobe too well at this point to believe that this is anything but another flaky attempt to prove his doubters wrong. Which will quickly melt away in a short amount of time...



> You're the type of guy who when Kobe scored 81, pointed out he had 0 assist,


81 points is impressive. Never said it wasn't. But I'm not the type of flake that's going to criticize someone for shooting all day, only to go WOW and be converted when they REALLy start shooting all day. That would be ridiculous.



> and labeled him a ballhog who isolates his teammates.


He labeled himself that.



> You're the type of guy who when the Lakers made the playoffs said, "So! If Kobe was so good he would be better than a 7 seed, besides who cares he will lose to the Suns in 5 games anyways."


If he played the way he did in the regular season they probably would have lost in 5 games.



> You're the type of guy who when Kobe turns down his scoring and gets his teammates involved says, "So, why wasn't he doing that all year? Plus, had he scored 40+ points in games 1 and 5 his team would have won!"


No, I say that Kobe has proven that he's a shoot-first player. It takes more than 5 games to convince me that the man has changed his philosophy about life and basketball. It should take more than 5 games to prove it to you as well.



> You're the type of guy who when Kobe and the Lakers have a 3-2 series lead going back to LA, says "So, the NBA wants Kobe in the Conference Finals."


Uhhh...no.



> In other words, you're the type of guy who simply doesn't like Kobe for whatever reason you decide at the moment, so arguing and trying to prove to you that Kobe is this or that proves nothing to you. You simply are a hater of Kobe Bryant and arguing with you about him is pointless.


Of course, that makes it easier to covers your ears and say "LALALALA" and go back to polishing your #24 jersey...

If you were really confident in your opinion, you wouldn't be afraid to hear other people challenge it. The fact that you want to label people as haters so you can ignore them just shows that you're scared they might be right...


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

EGarrett

I challenge you to say 8 positive things about Kobe Bryant the basketball player and after that I will be more than happy to have a discussion with you about him.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

ralaw said:


> EGarrett
> 
> I challenge you to say 8 positive things about Kobe Bryant the basketball player and after that I will be more than happy to have a discussion with you about him.


LOL! ralaw with the counseliing techniques. You need therapy. First step is to admit you have a problem.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> LOL! ralaw with the counseliing techniques. You need therapy. First step is to admit you have a problem.


I try Sir Patchwork....I try...... :heart: 

_Learn to think in positive affirmations. 
Affirmations are any statements you make. 
Too often we think in negative affirmations. 
Negative affirmations only create more of what 
you say you don't want. Saying, I hate my job, 
will get you nowhere. Declaring, I now accept a 
wonderful new job, will open the channels in your 
consciousness to create that. _ --Louise Hay 

_Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality 
and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense 
of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the 
beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse 
the true with the false and the false with the true. _ 
--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

That was just way too easy.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

EGarrett said:


> If I totally ignored everything Kobe did that was contrary to my beliefs, then how would I have formed beliefs about him in the first place?
> 
> 
> They did a mistake and it has set them back quite a few years.
> ...


it became clear they couldn't keep them both. hence, no ring anyway. does look like they picked the right guy to rebuild around.



EGarrett said:


> On the contrary. People like Iverson, Kobe and McGrady have a track record of getting teams to the playoffs by jacking shots all day. They just don't win much beyond that.


kobe had 2 months scoring over 40 ppg. jan and april. lakers went 9-4 in jan, 6-2 in april. and jordan won alot jacking up alot of shots within the triangle.



EGarrett said:


> As evidence, note that Kobe's team has gone up on Phoenix by SHARING the ball, not by Kobe shooting his arm off.
> 
> If he kept playing this way good things would continue to happen, but we know Kobe too well at this point to believe that this is anything but another flaky attempt to prove his doubters wrong. Which will quickly melt away in a short amount of time...


kobe has played in large part consistent with how phil wanted him to play.



EGarrett said:


> 81 points is impressive. Never said it wasn't. But I'm not the type of flake that's going to criticize someone for shooting all day, only to go WOW and be converted when they REALLy start shooting all day. That would be ridiculous.
> 
> 
> He labeled himself that.


how's that?



EGarrett said:


> If he played the way he did in the regular season they probably would have lost in 5 games.


again, the team came up with a strategy to specifically exploit phx. blame phil for not hatching this in the regular season. 



EGarrett said:


> No, I say that Kobe has proven that he's a shoot-first player. It takes more than 5 games to convince me that the man has changed his philosophy about life and basketball. It should take more than 5 games to prove it to you as well.


some forget that kobe does have 3 championships, and he has had one unsuccessful year in his career.


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

kflo said:


> it became clear they couldn't keep them both. hence, no ring anyway. does look like they picked the right guy to rebuild around.


We don't know what offers they had for Kobe, be it as a normal trade or as a sign-and-trade.

Trading Shaq meant that they had to get something like $30 million in salary back. Whereas with Kobe they more likely could have made a 1-1 deal for another young star...

Phil Jackson had to explain to Jerry Buss that not every star player acts the way Kobe does, which might explain why Buss tries to cater to everything Kobe does...he doesn't seem to know any better.



> kobe had 2 months scoring over 40 ppg. jan and april. lakers went 9-4 in jan, 6-2 in april. and jordan won alot jacking up alot of shots within the triangle.


On the contrary. When Jordan jacked up a lot of shots, it was during the year when he fought the triangle at every turn. When Jordan played within the triangle it was different. According to Tex Winter, who keeps track of every forced shot in his team's offense (using "F's")...Jordan was the only player who ever came close to having an "F-free" game.



> kobe has played in large part consistent with how phil wanted him to play.


Considering that Phil Jackson believes that the triangle offense will produce a score every single time if it's perfectly executed, I highly doubt that he told Kobe to go out and not execute it...



> how's that?


You're not assigned a "label" at random when you come into the NBA. You get them by how you play. And you change them by acting against your reputation until the criticism melts away. It's the same way with changing any reputation...not just one for basketball players.

Kobe got his label, one way or another, based on the way he plays basketball. He can change it, if he keeps playing the way he has been for the last 5 games. But he has to keep it up. I doubt he will.



> again, the team came up with a strategy to specifically exploit phx. blame phil for not hatching this in the regular season.


Have you read Phil Jackson's book?



> some forget that kobe does have 3 championships, and he has had one unsuccessful year in his career.


Which year was that?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

jordan won titles jacking up alot of shots. true or false.


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

kflo said:


> jordan won titles jacking up alot of shots. true or false.


I answered your questions. You should have the courtesy to answer mine.

Then when you do, we can discuss the difference between shooting a lot and jacking shots. (and yes, there is a major difference)


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

EGarrett said:


> I answered your questions. You should have the courtesy to answer mine.
> 
> Then when you do, we can discuss the difference between shooting a lot and jacking shots. (and yes, there is a major difference)


you asked 2 questions - yes, i read his book. last year was unsuccessful.

are you saying i must address each of your points before i can ask you to clarify one of your points?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

btw, kobe's scoring efficiency this year wasn't materially different than jordan's in '93 and '97, and better than jordan's in '98.


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

kflo said:


> you asked 2 questions - yes, i read his book.


Then I can't understand why you ask some of the questions you ask. His book makes it clear why Buss kept Kobe, among other things...



> last year was unsuccessful.


Meaning the year he played without Shaq or Phil Jackson...

And speaking of which...how often have Shaq or Phil Jackson had unsuccessful years? Have they ever?



> are you saying i must address each of your points before i can ask you to clarify one of your points?


I'm actually just pointing out that you brought up several points, then when they got answered you suddenly turned into a one-sentence wonder. I guess that's better than the people who just disappeared completely, but I assumed if you brought up several points that you wanted to discuss them and were able to support them.

And in answer to your question, you can shoot 30 times in a game and no expert will call you a ballhog or accuse you of jacking shots. If you have a jump shot, and you get left open 30 times, good basketball dictates that you should shoot 30 times. If you're single-covered covered 30 times in the post by a guy 3 inches shorter than you and 20 pounds lighter than you, and you have a post-up game, you should probably end up taking 30 shots. If your plays break down 30 times and you're the best one-on-one scorer in your team, you can take 30 shots.

These are examples of situations where you can end up shooting a lot of shots without jacking or being a ballhog. It's the best way for your team to score. When you take shots when they AREN'T the best option, or when there's time on the clock to at least run a play or two and see if you can get an easy layup, THAT'S when you start forcing shots.

Unfortunately, you have to have a good idea about basketball to know the difference. Many people here don't. Which is why they can't understand and get frustrated when people call Kobe a ball-hog and don't give Jordan or Lebron the same label. (Note that Jordan WAS a ball-hog early in his career but he grew out of it)

So to answer your question, Jordan won titles shooting a lot of shots. But no, at that point in his career he wasn't a "jacker."


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

EGarrett said:


> We don't know what offers they had for Kobe, be it as a normal trade or as a sign-and-trade.
> 
> Trading Shaq meant that they had to get something like $30 million in salary back. Whereas with Kobe they more likely could have made a 1-1 deal for another young star...


kobe was an unrestricted free agent.



EGarrett said:


> Phil Jackson had to explain to Jerry Buss that not every star player acts the way Kobe does, which might explain why Buss tries to cater to everything Kobe does...he doesn't seem to know any better.
> 
> 
> On the contrary. When Jordan jacked up a lot of shots, it was during the year when he fought the triangle at every turn. When Jordan played within the triangle it was different. According to Tex Winter, who keeps track of every forced shot in his team's offense (using "F's")...Jordan was the only player who ever came close to having an "F-free" game.


fact is jordan shot alot, with similar efficiency as kobe.



EGarrett said:


> Considering that Phil Jackson believes that the triangle offense will produce a score every single time if it's perfectly executed, I highly doubt that he told Kobe to go out and not execute it...


did the lakers change their approach for this series, or did kobe just decide on his own to play differently?



EGarrett said:


> You're not assigned a "label" at random when you come into the NBA. You get them by how you play. And you change them by acting against your reputation until the criticism melts away. It's the same way with changing any reputation...not just one for basketball players.
> 
> Kobe got his label, one way or another, based on the way he plays basketball. He can change it, if he keeps playing the way he has been for the last 5 games. But he has to keep it up. I doubt he will.


that's your label for him. it's not a universal label.



EGarrett said:


> Have you read Phil Jackson's book?


yes




EGarrett said:


> Which year was that?


2005. one year. your conclusion from this is what? he needs a good coach? big deal.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

EGarrett said:


> Then I can't understand why you ask some of the questions you ask. His book makes it clear why Buss kept Kobe, among other things...
> 
> 
> Meaning the year he played without Shaq or Phil Jackson...
> ...


he was taking all these good shots, yet scoring no more efficiently (same for lebron). 

and it's frustrating when people don't know how to interpret the bottom line impact.


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

kflo said:


> kobe was an unrestricted free agent.


I'm not just talking about the offseason.

Several years before that, when Kobe and Shaq were really hating each other, they had the option of sending Kobe to Phoenix for Shawn Marion and Jason Kidd. Phil was all for the deal but was overruled by the front office.

Those are the type of offers I'm talking about. We don't know what they had brewing before the trade deadline.



> fact is jordan shot alot, with similar efficiency as kobe.





Me said:


> And in answer to your question, you can shoot 30 times in a game and no expert will call you a ballhog or accuse you of jacking shots. If you have a jump shot, and you get left open 30 times, good basketball dictates that you should shoot 30 times. If you're single-covered covered 30 times in the post by a guy 3 inches shorter than you and 20 pounds lighter than you, and you have a post-up game, you should probably end up taking 30 shots. If your plays break down 30 times and you're the best one-on-one scorer in your team, you can take 30 shots.
> 
> These are examples of situations where you can end up shooting a lot of shots without jacking or being a ballhog. It's the best way for your team to score. When you take shots when they AREN'T the best option, or when there's time on the clock to at least run a play or two and see if you can get an easy layup, THAT'S when you start forcing shots.
> 
> Unfortunately, you have to have a good idea about basketball to know the difference. Many people here don't. Which is why they can't understand and get frustrated when people call Kobe a ball-hog and don't give Jordan or Lebron the same label. (Note that Jordan WAS a ball-hog early in his career but he grew out of it)


I'd hate to think you're plugging your fingers in your ears and "lalalala"-ing...



> did the lakers change their approach for this series, or did kobe just decide on his own to play differently?


We don't know. But it's a safe bet that Kobe decided to buy into Phil's scheme as part of some grandstanding point-proving on his part. It's not as though as he hasn't done it before.



> that's your label for him. it's not a universal label.


Tell that to Phil Jackson, Tex Winter, Rudy Tomjanovich, Chucky Atkins, Shaq, ESPN columnists, and the people on this board who keep an ever-growing list of "Kobe Haters" in their sigs...

I already addressed the last two points.


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## MoMillionaire11 (Jan 16, 2006)

Wow I haven't been on this forum in a LONG time...but it's great to come back and see people talkin about Kobe. I'm glad I wasn't the one to bring this up. People who remember me will know that I am the biggest kobe fan EVER....so you can kinda guess what my answer to this question will be. But i'm not just gonna say yes...i'm gonna give you a legitimate reason why I think he is LEAPS AND BOUNDS ahead of everyone (except for maybe LeBron) in the NBA today.

There are several reasons.....

First of all.....NO ONE can guard him. No matter how many guys they throw at him he always has an answer, whether it be a fadeaway from 28 feet (that only kobe can make), a pass to a wide open teammate, or a dribble drive around them to break down the defense completely. 

He has always had 35+ points a game in him (well ever since his break through season in 02 - 03, but this season he has finally been able to showcase it thanks to THE MAN Phil Jackson who IMO is the best coach of all time, and the coach of the year....cause if you look at the lakers lineup...and you look at their record...its truly amazing what hes been able to accomplish with that team. But back to Kobe....

At 6'6''....he plays every position on offence...WELL! Sometimes you'll see him bring up the ball and set up the offense....most of the time you'll see him running off screens as a wing (SG and SF) to get open for a jumper....and other times you'll see him in the post working relentlessly to get the position hes wants on the almost always smaller defender. He is quite the "complete package"...and i'm not even mentioning his intense defense....1.8 steals a game is just another facet i wont even go into right now.

He has the biggest impact on the floor of ANY OTHER PLAYER in the league. When opposing teams see Kobe checking back in off the bench, you can see the intimidation in their eyes. He is a momentum swinger. They know that at any moment it could become "kobe time", and they hold their breath that its not gonna be when the lakers already have a lead.

I dont know about anyone else but i had high expectations for kobe and the lakers at the start of the season....and they have far surpassed them all....its unbelievable. If you were to tell me in december or january that the lakers would end up with a 45 - 37 record and would have a 3 -2 series lead against the 2nd seeded suns....i would have smacked you...but right now i truly think the lakers can beat anyone on any given night...more often than i expected. You can't critisize kobe for being selfish because he shoots 27 shots a game. No disrespect to any of the other lakers here, but look at his teammates. I would rather kobe shoot ANY shot on the floor than have the rest of the lakers shoot 10 footers all game. He's just that type of player where the lakers are a more sucessful team with the ball in kobe's hands making the RIGHT decisions with it (something he miserably failed to do last season).

What else can I say about him? I could honestly go on forever. But there is no need. No question about it, LeBron, Wade, Iverson, Nash, and even Nowitzki are all great players in their own right...but this season kobe bryant has evolved into a different species of human, way before any other player. KOBE BRYANT IS MY MVP....he might not go into the books with one...cause nobody really likes him other than laker fans, but 20 or 30 years down the road, he will be remembered as the SECOND, yes SECOND best player to ever play the game of basketball. The End!


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

EGarrett said:


> I'm not just talking about the offseason.
> 
> Several years before that, when Kobe and Shaq were really hating each other, they had the option of sending Kobe to Phoenix for Shawn Marion and Jason Kidd. Phil was all for the deal but was overruled by the front office.
> 
> Those are the type of offers I'm talking about. We don't know what they had brewing before the trade deadline.


they didn't not make those trades with the intention of trading shaq later. they turned down those trades with the intention of keeping the tandem intact.

when ultimately forced to make a decision, kobe was a higher priority than shaq. and that, in hindsight, is a no-brainer. earlier trade offers are irrelevant. they weren't choosing between kobe or shaq at that point. 



EGarrett said:


> I'd hate to think you're plugging your fingers in your ears and "lalalala"-ing...


???? lol.

you talk about taking good shots. well, you take good shots with the intention of maximizing your efficiency. that's what helps you win, scoring efficiently, not the virtue of taking good shots. your position seems to be that jordan took good shots, putting his team in a better position to win. but if your good shots are no more efficient than someone elses "bad" shots, what's the added value? how does that put you in a better position to win. kobe knows how to run the triangle. he plays it well. kobe bryant is the main reason the lakers were one of the better offensive teams in the league. yet your point is that he'll never win (3 titles notwithstanding). and jordan knew how to take good shots. 

i don't have my fingers in my ears. i understand you perfectly. it just doesn't make much sense in the context of the discussion. the intention of a good shot is to increase efficiency. if your good shots lead to no greater efficiency, the virtue of the good shot doesn't get you much additional value to your team.




EGarrett said:


> We don't know. But it's a safe bet that Kobe decided to buy into Phil's scheme as part of some grandstanding point-proving on his part. It's not as though as he hasn't done it before.


we kinda do know. everyone's said it. and him executing the game-plan is grandstanding? lol. talk about a no-win situation.




EGarrett said:


> Tell that to Phil Jackson, Tex Winter, Rudy Tomjanovich, Chucky Atkins, Shaq, ESPN columnists, and the people on this board who keep an ever-growing list of "Kobe Haters" in their sigs...


they all labeled him a ballhog who isolates his teammates? i'm sure we can find quotes from most of them that contradict that as well. 



EGarrett said:


> I already addressed the last two points.


what is the point that phil has always been successful? what does that say about kobe as a player?


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## quench23 (Mar 26, 2006)

no, kobe bryant isnt the best player

kobe jackson is though


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

EGarrett said:


> Did you know that Kobe Bryant has actually been in the NBA for years and years before this playoff series? It's true.
> 
> To quote the movie City of God..."delinquents don't quit. They just take breaks."


If I wanted a reply that completely deflects from the question that was put forth, I'd ask for one. Quoting a bad line from a bad movie? Meh.



> Then why didn't he do that against Phoenix during the regular season?


Probably because he was following the instructions of his coach Phil Jackson. Just a wild guess. 



> (btw, you have 10,000+ posts and Kobe in both your avatar and sig. Do you realize how ridiculous you look trying to claim I'M posting obsessively on a message board?)


Not really, considering I'm a Laker fan and you're a....what kind of fan again? Someone who obsessively puts down a player they've never met for asinine reasons.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

kflo said:


> they didn't not make those trades with the intention of trading shaq later. they turned down those trades with the intention of keeping the tandem intact.
> 
> when ultimately forced to make a decision, kobe was a higher priority than shaq. and that, in hindsight, is a no-brainer. earlier trade offers are irrelevant. they weren't choosing between kobe or shaq at that point.
> 
> ...


Nice post. Will be interesting to see how EGarrett backtracks when he attempts to claim there is added value in taking "good" shots despite similar/equal efficiency, and no doubt will ignore that "good" or "bad" shots are open to wide interpretation based on the context of a possession and/or game plan in the case of a 7 game series.


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## KobeIsOverrated (Apr 23, 2006)

I like how people give Kobe credit for ALL team success. And then people place blame on his teammates for all the losses. There's several players I'd take before Kobe:
1. LeBron
2. Duncan
3. Wade
4. Healthy McGrady (automatic playoff berth when healthy)
5. Amare
6. Dirk
7. Garnett
8. Melo
9. Nash
10. Healthy Carter
11. Tony Parker
12. Yao

I could go on and on.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

KobeIsOverrated said:


> I like how people give Kobe credit for ALL team success. And then people place blame on his teammates for all the losses. There's several players I'd take before Kobe:
> 1. LeBron
> 2. Duncan
> 3. Wade
> ...


the more you go on, the less credibility you have.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

You can make a pretty strong case for Lebron being the best player in the league already. Certainly no one has the trade value of Lebron right now (Performance, continued improvement, age, etc.).

In any case, I would still probably take a healthy Duncan over both


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## KobeIsOverrated (Apr 23, 2006)

kflo said:


> the more you go on, the less credibility you have.


Says the person that thinks Kobe=Jordan. Good joke. Kobe isn't even Top 10 all time. You're gonna tell me Kobe is better than all these players?:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Isiah Thomas
7. Tim Duncan
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Oscar Robertson
10. Hakeem Olajuwon


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Your Kobe posts have 0 credibility when your username is "KobeIsOverrated"


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## THE MATRIX 31 (Jul 22, 2005)

Even as a Kobe hater, i still believe Kobe is the best player in the world right now.


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## KobeIsOverrated (Apr 23, 2006)

LW said:


> Your Kobe posts have 0 credibility when your username is "KobeIsOverrated"


Awesome, you're opinion is SO important to me.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

KobeIsOverrated said:


> The Suns will sweep the Lakers, except several blowouts.


bump


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## KobeIsOverrated (Apr 23, 2006)

EHL said:


> bump


Oh well, who knew Kobe would pass the ball and stay out of his teammates' way?


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

I'm not sure he can come back the same. Plus he is 30 already.

But yeah that is why I gave Kobe the interim mantle as the best in the game right now, that is pending how Duncan comes back.



Pioneer10 said:


> In any case, I would still probably take a healthy Duncan over both


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

KobeIsOverrated said:


> Oh well,


Indeed. :laugh:



> who knew Kobe would pass the ball and stay out of his teammates' way?


Fans who watched NBA basketball in 2000, 2001, and 2002. See here for more details.


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## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

KobeIsOverrated said:


> I like how people give Kobe credit for ALL team success. And then people place blame on his teammates for all the losses. There's several players I'd take before Kobe:
> 1. LeBron
> 2. Duncan
> 3. Wade
> ...


who?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23isback said:


> who?



If you remember back to the regular season he was a pretty good player for some team called the Nuggets. Supposedly they made the playoffs, but I don't really have any concrete memories as such.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> If you remember back to the regular season he was a pretty good player for some team called the Nuggets. Supposedly they made the playoffs, but I don't really have any concrete memories as such.


Heir apparent as chosen by MJ himself to don the great "jumpman23" logo. :rofl:


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

KobeIsOverrated said:


> Says the person that thinks Kobe=Jordan. Good joke. Kobe isn't even Top 10 all time. You're gonna tell me Kobe is better than all these players?:
> 1. Michael Jordan
> 2. Wilt Chamberlain
> 3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
> ...


So the standard for Kobe is the all-time greats? In your attempts to discredit Kobe, it seems to me with this post you understand Kobe's greatness. I don't see you comparing Wade, McGrady, Carter, etc. to the all-time greats players. The reason you made this comparision is because there is no player in the league outside of LeBron James who is on his level, so the next standard you have to use is the all-time greats.


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## flip-flop (May 17, 2005)

Kobe is good but not the best, IMO. His solo-plays are a bit of boring to me - basketball is supposed to be a team play. Here in Europe we play different style of basketball (more team game) which I like more than those one-man shows by Kobe or Iverson.

Now to go back to Bryant: as I said he is great offensive player (IMO top 3 in NBA in 1:1 play) but I believe that still doesn't make him the best player in the league. He is too selfish and not so great at defence. 

I think all-round players like Duncan, Nash, Kidd and Nowitzki are better than him if you compare them and their valuable to the team. Scoring and dunking is of course the thing people are loving but I guess being the best scorer or dunker still doesn't means that you are the best player.
So, I think the better question here would be: "Is Kobe best offensive player in NBA?"


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## bear23 (Feb 28, 2005)

Nope. The bestplayer is Lebron.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

sadam said:


> Kobe is good but not the best, IMO. His solo-plays are a bit of boring to me - basketball is supposed to be a team play. Here in Europe we play different style of basketball (more team game) which I like more than those one-man shows by Kobe or Iverson.
> 
> Now to go back to Bryant: as I said he is great offensive player (IMO top 3 in NBA in 1:1 play) but I believe that still doesn't make him the best player in the league. He is too selfish and *not so great at defence*.
> 
> ...


lol


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

KobeIsOverrated said:


> Says the person that thinks Kobe=Jordan. Good joke. Kobe isn't even Top 10 all time. You're gonna tell me Kobe is better than all these players?:
> 1. Michael Jordan
> 2. Wilt Chamberlain
> 3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
> ...



lol - in one post you're saying you'd take tony parker and many others over him, and in another you're asking if he's top 10 EVER. 

and yes, kobe's better than isiah.


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## GBFanJ (Dec 17, 2003)

The only good thing about Bryant was Shaq, and he wasted that opportunity. Beyond that, he had NOTHING. Bryant isn't even in the top 100 active players.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

GBFanJ said:


> The only good thing about Bryant was Shaq, and he wasted that opportunity. Beyond that, he had NOTHING. Bryant isn't even in the top 100 active players.


well said!


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

My grandma could beat MJ too.



GBFanJ said:


> The only good thing about Bryant was Shaq, and he wasted that opportunity. Beyond that, he had NOTHING. Bryant isn't even in the top 100 active players.


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## flip-flop (May 17, 2005)

kflo said:


> lol


nash=MVP, Nowitzki was close to that (3.)...where is your Kobe?


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## Kyuchan (May 3, 2006)

sadam said:


> nash=MVP, Nowitzki was close to that (3.)...where is your Kobe?


Well, thats for the MVP race, which involves your TEAM's win/loss and other factors (for a matter of fact MVP isn't even defined so who knows? To some it could mean best player, some most valuable etc.)
Or I guess if you stick to that topic Kobe DID have the 2nd Highest 1st place votes if that means anything.
In my opinion though I do think Kobe or Lebrone is the best player given my definition, but hey, its just my opinion :yes:


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

GBFanJ said:


> The only good thing about Bryant was Shaq, and he wasted that opportunity. Beyond that, he had NOTHING. Bryant isn't even in the top 100 active players.


He's tied for 142nd place with Earl Boykins to my understanding.


----------

