# Who think Jordan is Better than Kobe



## aznbusyboy (Apr 7, 2003)

People think Jordan is better than Kobe, but let me ask you one short question. Name 3 Shootingguards back in 1900s that can compete with Jorday. these aren't Sgs:
Larry Bird is a SF
Magic Johnson is Pg
John stockon is a Pg

Now let's name three top Sgs that're competing with Kobe Bryant rite now. 

After all these, who do you think is better?
btw, kobe already has 3 championships rings and he's only 24 1/2.


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## Street_Ball (May 6, 2003)

sure kobe got the light now but back in jordans day he could take kobe


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

No way man! Jordan isn't even half as good as Kobe. :uhoh:


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## zerotre (Sep 28, 2002)

*jordan rules*

***Please do not make hateful statements towards Kobe fans, Thanks- Louie*** jordan is the best player ever and will be the best player for awhile. I dont undersstand how you lil kids can even say kobe is even with jordan let alone better then him. Jordan was THE MAN on his team, he didnt have the most dominate big man on his team, by the way how can kobe be the best ever if he isnt even the best on his own team???????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

That's simple. because he is the best on his own team.

I find it truly amazing that Kobe plays along side the most dominate??? but still managed to become the youngest player to score 10,000.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Why do you always bring up Kobe plays with Shaq? 
What if MJ has to play with Shaq in this era of basketball? It would make much sense to let him score like he did back then; he'd have to defer to the big man just as Kobe does.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

This comaprison is more or less a moot point right now. Kobe is not in Jordans Class yet. Give Kobe time and possibly he may surpass Jordan as arguably the best player ever. Right now you cannot even compare the 2. Was Jordan in his prime better YES. Remeber Kobe is not even in his prime yet. Give this debate a little more time. But to even say Kobe is better than Jordan ever was right now is ridiculous.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

I'll go as far as to say that Jordan in his prime was not much better than Kobe now. At least not statistically. They both give you 30+, 5-7 boards, 5-6 assists. Both all NBA on both sides of the ball, first team! Both allstars, Both champions, and but with that killer, clutch instinct!


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## H2O (Jul 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> I'll go as far as to say that Jordan in his prime was not much better than Kobe now. At least not statistically. They both give you 30+, 5-7 boards, 5-6 assists. Both all NBA on both sides of the ball, first team! Both allstars, Both champions, and but with that killer, clutch instinct!


If you want to go with statistics, look at the shooting percentages. I'm not a big fan of such things, but I'm pretty sure they aren't even close.

C'mon now. MJ is a legend, commonly referd to as the best ever. Kobe is not even close to that level yet, regardless of how much yammering there is about it. This thread is more than just a little bit asinine.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

I can't argue with that.

Kobe is well on his way though, at 24 he's able to do what the greatest did in his prime. Who knows if Kobe will exceed MJ, if anything, I'd say he's well ahead of the pack.


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## MightyReds2020 (Jul 19, 2002)

MJ is god! You can't compare a god to a human.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MightyReds2020</b>!
> MJ is god! You can't compare a god to a human.


BLASHPHEMY!


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

At the same age I would have to say Kobe is better. It's amazing at 24 Kobe has 3 rings, been all-nba first team 3 times, all defense 1st team twice, and has already been an MVP candidate. He will only get better, watch his career take off after he leaves LA, because then all the Kobe haters won't have the "He has Shaq excuse"


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> At the same age I would have to say Kobe is better. It's amazing at 24 Kobe has 3 rings, been all-nba first team 3 times, all defense 1st team twice, and has already been an MVP candidate. He will only get better, watch his career take off after he leaves LA, because then all the Kobe haters won't have the "He has Shaq excuse"


4 shizzle!


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## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> At the same age I would have to say Kobe is better. It's amazing at 24 Kobe has 3 rings, been all-nba first team 3 times, all defense 1st team twice, and has already been an MVP candidate. He will only get better, watch his career take off after he leaves LA, because then all the Kobe haters won't have the "He has Shaq excuse"


At 24 Jordan had already won an MVP, Defensive Player of the Year award, two ALL NBA first teams, two all defense 1st teams. 

Statistically, its not even close. Jordan at 24 averaged 5 more points per game and had a whopping 1.21 to 1.10 scoring efficiency advantage. Kobe had 1.4 more assists, but at a cost of .44 more turnovers per game. Rebounds were equal. Jordan averaged .95 more steals per game and .78 more blocks per game. 

I don't think Jordan is the best player of all time, but I DO think he was a whole heck of alot better than Kobe at the same age.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> That's simple. because he is the best on his own team.
> 
> I find it truly amazing that Kobe plays along side the most dominate??? but still managed to become the youngest player to score 10,000.



How many years did it take him?


Now, how many years did it take jordan.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how much was kobe being held back? how much freedom was jordan allowed and how many shots did he get?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> how much was kobe being held back? how much freedom was jordan allowed and how many shots did he get?


Exactly MJ was gunnin' from day one. Kobe came off da bench for two years then and has had to share the scoring load with Shaq ever since. You gotta give Kobe some props for that.


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## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly MJ was gunnin' from day one. Kobe came off da bench for two years then and has had to share the scoring load with Shaq ever since. You gotta give Kobe some props for that.


Why do I have to give props for scoring alot of points with Shaq as a teammate. The great part about Shaq is that he draws double teams almost every time he touches the ball and he CREATES SHOTS for his TEAMMATES. So, no, you don't have to give Kobe props for that.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

what kobe is doing scoringwise is pretty unprecedented from a guard with a dominant big man. almost every great perimeter player in history has had depressed scoring when teammed with a dominant big man.

kobe clearly has to reign in his game with shaq in the middle. he has to play a more methodical game, because the game plan is to attack from the inside-out. 

obviously, the upside (and not an insignificant upside) is that kobe is in a great situation to be successful. jordan too, found himself in a pretty great position, the only position that could have yielded his current status as is. he didn't share the spotlight, because his costars were subservient to him offensively, yet they were the perfect compliment to his skills. jordan was awesome because of his skills and his desire, etc. but things also aligned pretty well for him. had he played alongside another dominant offensive player, he'd have been no less great, but he'd have greater questions about his dominance. his path isn't the only one to greatness, but he's made it difficult to compare or give others a chance. 

jordan was the best i've seen. kobe's just not there yet, imo, but he's pretty awesome, and he's putting together a pretty good body of work, with a long way to go before he hits his downslope. it would be a pretty great matchup to have seen.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Whiles Kobe's skill level is arguably as great as Jordans and both of them have incredible work ethics I think that the single thing that Jordan has above just about everybody is his competiveness. The will to just outplay (and often embarrass) anybody that even considered being in the same class as him is what made Jordan stand alone.


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## ltrain99 (Apr 27, 2003)

repost this when kbe wins 1 mvp if ti ever happens then u cna atleast mention him in the same sentence as mj Yeah kobe is a great but cmon mj is considered the greatest ever by many


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19885&highlight=Louie 
Here's a link to a Kobe post that I made a couple months ago- it pretty much sums up my feelings on this subject. 
Kobe has really earned my respect this year with the way has had to carry so much of his team's load with Shaq injured or less effective than normal for much of the season.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>tenkev</b>!
> 
> 
> At 24 Jordan had already won an MVP, Defensive Player of the Year award, two ALL NBA first teams, two all defense 1st teams.
> ...


didn't Jordan's first MVP come in 91? At 24 his team couldn't get out the first round, and i don't even think they had a winning record, so im pretty sure he didn't get MVP. When Jordan was young it was an offensive era of basketball, similar to the current juiced ball, and small parks era Major League Baseball is currently in. The year before Jordan came into the league every team in the NBA averaged over 100 points and the Dallas Mavericks scored 100 in every game, so you can't compare by just points. Defense back than was just outscoring your opponent. Nowadays a game where two teams score 100 is rare, and i think only 3 teams averaged 100 this year. Which is what makes it more impressive when players like T Mac, Kobe and Allen iverson average 30 a game. Kobe is clearly a more skilled player now than Mike ever was, Kobe is a better ball handler, just as athletic, if not more athletic, and is a much better shooter. Jordan was a better pentrator and thats possibly all he has on Kobe on the offensive end. Mike was a better defender, but Kobe D's it up as well. Watch Kobe at 30, he'll be doin things not even Jordan could imagine doing.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> Kobe is clearly a more skilled player now than Mike ever was, Kobe is a better ball handler, just as athletic, if not more athletic, and is a much better shooter. Jordan was a better pentrator and thats possibly all he has on Kobe on the offensive end. Mike was a better defender, but Kobe D's it up as well. Watch Kobe at 30, he'll be doin things not even Jordan could imagine doing.


You couldn't be more wrong about the handles. Kobe's hands just aren't big enough to even make that a debate. Kobe is also not as quick nor is he a better shooter, he just has better range. As for your assesment of the times, lets not forget that when jordan played in an era of lesser defense he played with centers of much more skill and a much more physical era which allowed such things as handchecks on jumpshots to go on regularly.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

jordan won his first mvp in '88.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> You couldn't be more wrong about the handles. Kobe's hands just aren't big enough to even make that a debate. Kobe is also not as quick nor is he a better shooter, he just has better range. As for your assesment of the times, lets not forget that when jordan played in an era of lesser defense he played with centers of much more skill and a much more physical era which allowed such things as handchecks on jumpshots to go on regularly.


what does the size of kobe's hands have to do with how good a ballhandler you are (aren't most great ballhandlers smaller players, who naturally tend to have smaller hands?)? i think kobe's probably a better ballhandler than jordan was. jordan was quicker off the dribble.

regardless of handchecking or physical play, points were far easier to come by in the '80s and early '90s overall and fg%'s were higher as well. today, though, you do see individual players scoring big numbers because teams tend to rely on their superstar players to make things happen offensively (and partly because the focus has shifted a bit away from offensive minded players).


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

this is a stupid tread(jordan on dought).vince and tmac are better than kobe


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## jsa056 (May 5, 2003)

is it just me, or is everyone forgetting jordan HAD a great player named scottie pippen. i'm not a big pip fan, but he was named to the nba's top 50 greatest players, so jordan didn't do it alone.

the whole shaq-kobe thing is WAY overplayed, and kobe's numbers would be a lot better if he played by himself or with a pippen-type player. can someone name me a nba championship team thats had just ONE star? i can't think of one (dont say philly or any conference championship team, cuz we all know that you can win the JV conference with one star)

that being said, isn't it a little early to be comparing kobe and jordan? kobe won't be considered a canidate for all-time greatest for quite a few years so the outcome of this arguement is still at least a good 5-6 years away? i'm a HUGE lakers and kobe fan, and i believe kobe has the talent to be as good, maybe even better than jordan... but i don't think i'll even consider kobe close to jordan... at least not for another few years.

~jsa


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## Showtime84' (Oct 8, 2002)

Oh please Kobe is not even in the same realm in terms of athletisism when compared to Jordan. Michael literally flew through the air, Kobe's little as! hands don't allow him to do this.

In terms of era's, you can't punish Jordan for playing in a time when REAL basketball was still being played instead of the brickfest you have now a days were the majority of teams have trouble breaking 90 in an empty gym.

Besides Jordan dominated up until 1998 and even at 40 the dude was rutinely dominating dudes half his age.

I would've LOVED!!! to have seen todays' stars go up against the Detroit Bad Boys in their prime, guys like Iverson, Garnett, T-mac and Kobe wouldn't last a quarter against those sob's.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> what does the size of kobe's hands have to do with how good a ballhandler you are (aren't most great ballhandlers smaller players, who naturally tend to have smaller hands?)? i think kobe's probably a better ballhandler than jordan was. jordan was quicker off the dribble.


No. Better ball handlers have bigger hands. It enables you to palm the ball, and alter it's trajectory on the bounce with greater ease and accuracy since you have a better surface area to strike it with. If that doesn't make sense think about it this way. If you want to hit a tennis ball in a hole in the wall which makes it easier a baseball bat or a tennis racket?

Have you ever seen micheals jump shot fake? There isn't a human being alive that wouldn't fall for that. It's made possible only by his freakishly large hands

While better ball handlers tend to be smaller in size, their hands tend to be much bigger-

John stockton Jason Williams two of the best ball handlers to ever live, both have monster mitts.


Also, you can't say regardless of handchecking, it would be like saying regardless of zone defense being allowed ( a plus for kobe). Getting slapped in the hand while taking a shot alters your shot dramatically and you have to be a good shooter to get it in.


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## jsa056 (May 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Vinsanity</b>!
> this is a stupid tread(jordan on dought).vince and tmac are better than kobe
> 
> Vince Carter's 2003-2004 season stats = 28.7 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 4.3 APG, 1.7 SPG, 1.3 BPG....47% FG, 40.2 MPG


i think ur forgetting 25 games played.

PLEASE, t-mac MIGHT have an argument (i don't think so...since kobe actually plays defense), but adding carter in is a joke. and if you want to call a THREAD stupid, learn how to spell thread first

~jsa


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

MJ was the better player period. At 24, 30, 35 he's better than Kobe. That's nothing to be ashamed of because he's probably the best player ever. Kobe is an amazing talent in his own right and has a chance to be a top 10 player of all time, if he stays healthy. The reason I don't think Kobe is or ever will be as good as MJ is because MJ was the prototype. He is what Kobe is trying to become and he was more talented physically. There really isn't anything that Kobe can do that MJ couldn't do. However, MJ was able to do some things with the ball that Kobe can only dream of.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> Why do you always bring up Kobe plays with Shaq?
> What if MJ has to play with Shaq in this era of basketball? It would make much sense to let him score like he did back then; he'd have to defer to the big man just as Kobe does.


I don't see how Kobe is really deferring that much ... he is getting up just as many shots a game as Jordan was ... and just as many shots as Tmac did this season without another dominant player.

Even with Shaq on the court, Kobe is getting his shots. I don't really see any deferring happening.

Anyways, this is a stupid thread. Maybe one day Kobe, or someone else, will be on Jordan's level, but right now no one is close.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> MJ was the better player period. At 24, 30, 35 he's better than Kobe. That's nothing to be ashamed of because he's probably the best player ever. Kobe is an amazing talent in his own right and has a chance to be a top 10 player of all time, if he stays healthy. The reason I don't think Kobe is or ever will be as good as MJ is because MJ was the prototype. He is what Kobe is trying to become and he was more talented physically. There really isn't anything that Kobe can do that MJ couldn't do. However, MJ was able to do some things with the ball that Kobe can only dream of.


:clap: Wow, I'm more and more impressed every time u post, Pinball.
I actually do think that if Kobe wins more titles than MJ, than a good case could case could be made for him being as good a player as MJ. But you're totally right Jordan physically- he could do things that Kobe can't.
I do think that Kobe is, or at least appears to be Jordan's peer in terms of heart and desire; to me, those are the most important components of a great player. The thing is that when people talk about Kobe going down as the greatest ever, I have trouble seeing that happen because there really is nothing (yet) that separates him from MJ and, like you said, there are some things MJ could do that he can't. However, Kobe has got a career in front of him where he will have plenty of time to prove his worth. His legacy has yet to be written, and that's what people need to remember when comparing him to Mike.
Once again though, great post.


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## sjfinest5 (Mar 27, 2003)

i think it's a joke to compare Kobe to MJ because Michael is the best player of all-time and he is someone that you cant compare with. Kobe is a great player no doubt about that but he doesn't have to lead the team on his own, he has the big fellow there.


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## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

Shaquille O'Neal and Scottie Pippen are both very good players, but there is a difference in the way they impact other players on 
their team. 

Scottie Pippen was an excellent defender, good secondary scorer, great ballhandler, and good in all other fazes of the game. Shaq, on the other hand, is an offensive machine, that gets double teams all the time, creating oppurtunities for his teammates to have easy open jumpers. 

Even if you wrongly assume that their overall contribution to their teams were equal, that does not mean their contribution to teammates' offensive stats were equal. What I mean is, Shaq is a player that makes his teammates look good while Pippen was a player that made the TEAM good, but not necessarily make his teammates' scoring stats look that much better.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>tenkev</b>!
> Shaquille O'Neal and Scottie Pippen are both very good players, but there is a difference in the way they impact other players on
> their team.
> 
> ...


Basically, Kobe needs to play the role of Jordan to be considered his equal. He's more talented offensively than Pippen was but his contributions aren't any more significant. As long as Shaq is still alive and kicking Kobe will always have the Scottie Pippen stigma attached to him.


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## toiletscrubber (Sep 22, 2002)

It is nothing but a JOKE to compare MJ, the greatest basketball player EVER to Kobe Bryant.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

are you serious?

kobe to me hasn't proved anything, unless he can prove he's in a class that everyone including himself puts him in to me he's just another all-star. i haven't seen kobe lead a team single-handedly for a 82 game season plus the playoffs, to me garnett, and mcgrady have earned alot of respect.

scoring has very little to do with being the "greatest" it's how you handle your team mates, and what exactly you do for your team and how far you can take them. Jordan was the best offensive and defensive player on the court for many seasons, unless kobe proves that im not putting him in the same class


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

"tmac is better than jordan"
Does that some crazy of course it does.just the same as kobe situation.U asked who was better and in reality is jordan and in the dream world is kobe(u must be dreaming).Maybe Kobe will be better but would he be able to play at 40 yrl old but is not NOW to decide who is better.


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

kobe is twice as good as mj (at his age) imagine what kobe willbe in a few years!!! i think kobe is better, because he hasn;'t hit his prime yet. and im a kobe hater!.... 


oh and i remember a little someone called drexler who mj used to battle.... other than that there wernt many great 2 guards out there to stop mj... there was people like domonique and d brown, reggie was there, he battled with john starks (aparent mj stopper)... all were left with their heads hanging between their knees

kobe hands down.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

was wilt better than kareem when 24.
was jerry west better than allen iverson when 24
was kobe better than jordan when age 24.


is hard to say those kind of things only based on their eras and their stats.the only way to know if there both 24 and play head to head.


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> how much was kobe being held back? how much freedom was jordan allowed and how many shots did he get?


How old was Kobe when he came in the league and how old was Jordan? 

Give or take, Kobe was a rookie at 18, Jordan was 21 as a rookie.. so had Jordan come into the league at 18 AND had not injured himself in his second year, then blahblahblah.

Jordan is basketball fellas. if Kobe retired next year, it would be arguable to some if he would even make the hall-of-fame. Give Kobe time. Even then, Jordan is on another level... I mean, he played in an era with Bird and Magic, AND still overshadowed them.

STuart


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> kobe is twice as good as mj (at his age) imagine what kobe willbe in a few years!!! i think kobe is better, because he hasn;'t hit his prime yet. and im a kobe hater!....
> 
> 
> ...


Hearing you say that only leads me to believe you didn't see Jordan tear up the league or you were too young to remember it. He averaged *37pts on 48%FG and 35pts on 54%FG* and was one of the best defensive guards.

You need to rent one of his videos.

STuart


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## dmilesai (Jul 19, 2002)

Whoever voted "No" should be drug out in the street and be shot.

J/P

But seriously, how can you even compare them. Kobe has Shaq. MJ has Scottie. Sure, Scottie helped MJ out, but not as much as Shaq helps out Kobe. Shaq draws double teams all the time, and can pass it out to Kobe for a 1-on-1 chance. If Kobe's double teamed, and Shaq's double teamed, it's 3-on-1, so Kobe should get an easy assist if he has the ball. Why did Kobe reach 10,000 points at such a young age? He played many more games than Jordan did at 24. 

I'm not taking anything away from Kobe. He has a huge chance to become the best player since MJ. But Kobe won't ever be better than MJ IMO at any age of his development.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Jordan was NEVER 2nd best on his team, Kobe has NEVER been the best on his team

your comparing someone whos dominated the last 15 years of the NBA and earned the titled "greatest player ever"....to someone whos not even the best on his team??

how stupid is that? 

I didn't read all of the ridiculous garbage in this thread, but if you say SHAQ doesnt BOOST KOBES NUMBERS, your not thinking clearly...

just go check out Penny Hardaway with shaq, and what happened when shaq left

go check nick anderson, dennis scott

IF YOU UNDERSTAND BASKETBALL, YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IF YOU HAVE SHAQ ON YOUR TEAM, THEN HE DRAWS TRIPLE TEAMS, MEANING KOBES MAN IS ON SHAQ, AND SHAQ KICKS IT OUT TO KOBE. 

IF KOBE IS WITHOUT SHAQ, HE BECOMES THE FOCUS OF HIS TEAM. THUS DRAWING THE TRIPLE TEAMS INSTEAD OF JUST FEEDING OFF OF SHAQS. 

the stupidity in this thread amazes me, or atleast the people who think kobe is even half as good as Jordan was. 

Its


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Jordan was NEVER 2nd best on his team, Kobe has NEVER been the best on his team
> 
> your comparing someone whos dominated the last 15 years of the NBA and earned the titled "greatest player ever"....to someone whos not even the best on his team??
> ...


moving kobe to a different team in the nba do actually think he'd struggle? of course not. kobe breathes basketball and if you take him from LA and put him on any team in the nba, he dominates. 

Jordan still gets the stupid freaking GOAT title, IMO. that's not everything though, taking kobe and MJ as independent players, they are VERY close. at this point i would still take MJ in his prime but i wouldn't be making a huge mistake by selecting kobe for my team either. who knows how each of them would respond to different supporting casts? 

that said, i would argue that kobe has a better skill-set now than jordan ever had. an argument could be made, therefore, that he is the better player.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

how can you say that you KNOW kobe wouldnt struggle without shaq?

hes never had to play a season without shaq

if you can make a case that kobe is as good as jordan, then I can make an equally good case that tmac is as good as jordan

so yea, MCGRADY IS AS GOOD AS JORDAN WAS IN HIS PRIME


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> that said, i would argue that kobe has a better skill-set now than jordan ever had. an argument could be made, therefore, that he is the better player.


and I could argue that tmac has a better skill-set than kobe, which would make mcgrady better than both of them

doesnt mean its true (even though I do think tmacs better than kobe)


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> how can you say that you KNOW kobe wouldnt struggle without shaq?
> 
> hes never had to play a season without shaq
> ...


pretty much. all i'm trying to say is that if jordan was at the same stage in his career as kobe and tmac, i don't think he would have separated himself as the definitive best player. i think we'd be having the same arguments about tmac vs jordan vs kobe as we currently have with kobe and tmac. i think he'd be scoring around 30 ppg, maybe less than tmac maybe a little bit more. would he be winning championships or would he be struggling? if you replace tmac with jordan on the magic, would they have been significantly better? it's hard to say. 

bottomline, these players are comparable. tmac and kobe are that good. kobe has been winning titles and that puts him closer to the GOAT title than tmac because that title is based around one's career. jordan's career and impact is very difficult to top but kobe is well on his way.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Jordan was NEVER 2nd best on his team, Kobe has NEVER been the best on his team
> 
> your comparing someone whos dominated the last 15 years of the NBA and earned the titled "greatest player ever"....to someone whos not even the best on his team??
> ...


Lets look at like this, if Jordan came into the league with say, Kareem or Moses Malone on his team, he would've been the second best player on his team. You can't take away from a player because of where he ended up. Plus I feel Kobe is the best player on that team, it is a matter of opinion on whether you think Shaq or Kobe is the best player on the team. Think about it like this, for Kobe to be even considered the best player on his team by a lot of people, with the most dominating player in the league, is saying something. Saying Kobe isn't even half as good as Jordan ever was is plain stupid. Even experts have said Kobe at 24 is the more skilled player, and you really can't argue that Jordan was cleary the more skilled player. Jordan became more skilled as he got older, when he added the fadeaway to his athleticism and quick first step. Like I said before Jordan was a better penetrator, because of his amazing first step when he was younger, but Kobe has the ability to make tougher shots than Jordan.



> Basically, Kobe needs to play the role of Jordan to be considered his equal. He's more talented offensively than Pippen was but his contributions aren't any more significant. As long as Shaq is still alive and kicking Kobe will always have the Scottie Pippen stigma attached to him.


Now Scottie Pippen is my favorite player of all-time but even I wouldn't say Kobe is playing the same role as Scottie did to Mike. How many game winning shots did Scottie take with Mike on the court? Now ask yourself how many has Kobe taken with Shaq on the court? Kobe is the clutch performer on his team not Shaq, so right there that seperates him from Scottie. 

For those who keep talking about shooting percentages, please stop, Jordan shot that very high percent against weak defensive players, and for the most part players his height or shorter and weaker than he was, Kobe has to deal with players who are at the least his height and from time to time has to see a player like Kevin Garnett, and players that are much stronger than him like Ron Artest. Not to say these guys would have shut Jordan down, but if Jordan had to play against players who were defensive minded and equal in stature his % would be much lower. 

One poster said Vince is better than Kobe, thats laughable, Vince isn't even one of the 10 best players in the league, and is the 3rd best player in his draft behind Paul Pierce and Dirk. Vince isn't nearly as good on offense, and on defense Vince is terrible and Kobe is very good..


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## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

Whats with all this crap about Jordan's era being full of weak defensive players? I guess you guys didn't watch basketball in the 80's, but that era had the most talent per team ever. 

In 87/88 (the year Jordan won his first MVP), there were only 23 teams in the NBA. In 2003 there are 29 teams in the NBA. That is a 26% increase. Do you actually think the talent pool of possible NBA players has increased 26% in the last 15 years? No way.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

okay, I'm going to respond without quotes here, but you know who I'm talking to if your reading this. 

Someone said if Jordan was on the same team as Moses Malone or Kareem he wouldnt be the main guy...

MAYBE not, but if Jordan wasnt the main guy, then that only means that they win EVERY YEAR EASILY. 

Jordan LED his team to 6 titles

Kobe is the 2nd best on his team, and they are struggling to win

Kobes got abilities that jordan didnt have, but Jordan had many more abilities that kobe doesnt have and may not ever have. 

Someone else said Kobe is to Shaq as Pippen is to Jordan...WELL SAID

you cant be better than the best player of all time, if your not the best on your team. 

( and I still wonder why people try to argue that kobe is the leader of the lakers, ridiculous )


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## Vince Carter (Jan 9, 2003)

I think the 59 votes for yes and the 9 votes for no gives the answer to your question. Also I am glad no one was stupid enough to vote for they both suck.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>tenkev</b>!
> Why do I have to give props for scoring alot of points with Shaq as a teammate. The great part about Shaq is that he draws double teams almost every time he touches the ball and he CREATES SHOTS for his TEAMMATES. So, no, you don't have to give Kobe props for that.


I think its safe to say that Kobe creates more shots for Shaq than the other way around. 

Bottomline, you dont have to give Kobe props for anything, he'll shine regardless.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtime84'</b>!
> Oh please Kobe is not even in the same realm in terms of athletisism when compared to Jordan. *Michael literally flew through the air, Kobe's little as! hands don't allow him to do this.*


His little hands dont allow him to fly threw the air? 
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:



> In terms of era's, you can't punish Jordan for playing in a time when REAL basketball was still being played instead of the brickfest you have now a days were the majority of teams have trouble breaking 90 in an empty gym.


Statistics across era of basketball never proved any point to me.



> Besides Jordan dominated up until 1998 and even at 40 the dude was rutinely dominating dudes half his age.


In 1998, when Kobe and MJ went head to head, Kobe gave him work! They both had 30+. Also in the allstar game MJ lead the east, while Kobe lead the west. It was the Kobe vs. MJ show! They went at it. As a 18 year old, Kobe was able to compete admirably with the greatest of all time. Kobe is so far ahead of his time, it's crazy! 



> I would've LOVED!!! to have seen todays' stars go up against the Detroit Bad Boys in their prime, guys like Iverson, Garnett, T-mac and Kobe wouldn't last a quarter against those sob's.


I'd love to see it too; i'd also love to see your face while KG, Kobe, Tmac, Iverson, Shaq, and Duncan take it to them!


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Someone else said Kobe is to Shaq as Pippen is to Jordan...WELL SAID


That's ridiculous! You can't even explain that.

There is this foolish notion that when two stars play together one has to be Scottie Pippen. There is only one Scottie Pippen, Kobe is far from that. When comparing Kobe and Shaq, think of great dous such as Rice and Montana, or Wilt and West, Magic and Kareem. There is no Scottie Pippen in these dous. 
Really, how can Scottie Pippen be the guy that averages 30, 7, 6, 2 while MJ is the guy who averages 28 & 11.
That makes no sense.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> *but Kobe has the ability to make tougher shots than Jordan.*


You really believe this


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## numlock (Feb 8, 2003)

> In 1998, when Kobe and MJ went head to head, Kobe gave him work! They both had 30+. Also in the allstar game MJ lead the east, while Kobe lead the west. It was the Kobe vs. MJ show! They went at it. As a 18 year old, Kobe was able to compete admirably with the greatest of all time. Kobe is so far ahead of his time, it's crazy!


18 year old? Became the youngest All-Star in NBA history, posting a team-high 18 points and 6 rebounds, in the 1998 NBA All-Star Game in New York. 19 1/2


@@Scored a career-high 33 points, hitting 3-of-5 three-pointers, and grabbed 3 rebounds against the Chicago Bulls on 12/17/97 


Before mj got injured last season at the age of 38 he was one of 3 players getting 25 points, 5 boards and 5 assists. And some people here think that if that guy was 14-15 years younger he wouldnt be on top


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

penny hardaway's best run as a magic came in '96, when shaq was hurt and missed 28 games. in that time penny averaged 26 ppg and 7 rpg (significantly higher than at any time with shaq). as a matter of fact, scott and anderson's stats were significantly higher those 28 games without shaq as well. as the magic said at the time, when you lose 28 ppg, someone needs to replace it.

penny's injury problems and fragile ego are what doomed his career.

yes, shaq makes things easier for many of his teammates, stand still shooters in particular. 

lets face it, jordan himself could be playing with shaq, and many of you wouldn't give him credit because of the big fella. shaq makes it easier for jordan, you'd surely say. i say just open your eyes and recognize a great player.

pippen wasn't the go-to player on the bulls. kobe is for the lakers. kobe plays the pippen role often in la, initiating the offense. he also plays the jordan role often, dominating down the stretch, and being the guy la looks to in the 4th quarter.

as for the best player on la now, it's pretty close. kobe certainly had the better season. it would be pretty hard for some to accept the mantle being passed because of the credit they give shaq.

sky's said it many times, and i think it's got truth to it - jordan would have greater competition at his position, and more players who can come close to what he does, now than he had then (jordan used to call mitch richmond his toughest matchup). that's in part a credit to jordan, who set the standard. but it also makes it tougher to compare. 

one of the downsides of the jordan era has been this idea that to be the GOAT you need to be some sort of lone ranger leading your mediocre band of mates to the promised land. the more you play team ball, or the more you are a part of a balanced team, the less credit you get. jordan's path is the only path that can be taken. imagine for a second if jordan had come into magic or kobe's situation. even imagine if pippen was a more dominant offensive player, taking more of the scoring load from jordan. he would have taken a different path, his stats and individual dominance may have been different, but he'd still be close to the same player. could you have recognized it?

again, i don't think kobe's at the level jordan established in the middle of his career (pre-first retirement). but playing with shaq doesn't preclude him from being discussed amongst the greats. hell, shaq's amongst the best ever himself. he's being discussed amongst the greats because he's been playing at an incredibly high level, a level not often seen at his position, and many have recognized that, including players, coaches, gm's, etc. he still has a long way to go. 

btw, jordan didn't unanimously take the title of best player in the league until around '91. prior to that, magic still had his share of supporters (and mvp trophies in '87, '89 & '90), and bird of course, when healthy was also in the mix.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I think its safe to say that Kobe creates more shots for Shaq than the other way around.


What are you kidding me? All you have to do is dump the ball into Shaq and 60% of the time he'll score. Anyone can do that. Fisher, Horry, Fox, Kobe, anyone. The only thing Kobe does that very few players can do is that sweet drive and dish where he gets Shaq easy dunks underneath. The Lakers only run that play 2-3 times a game though. However, if you don't think Shaq makes it easier on Kobe you're kidding yourself. Kobe gets doubled from time to time but Shaq is still the focus of the defense. More often that not Kobe can go one on one with his man. If teams were running 2-3 defenders at Kobe he'd be going nuts.


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> You really believe this


I think they do.

Again, please rent his videos.

You guys are really missing out.

STuart


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## Showtime84' (Oct 8, 2002)

LOL at the fact that people think Jordan had less competition than Kobe. 

Kobe may have to face better players at his position but Michael had to face more great TEAMS.

How many of Kobe's peers are part of great teams? NONE!!!!

McGrady- One man show
Garnett- One and a half man show
Iverson-One man show
Ray Allen- Seattle sucks
Allan Houston- New York Blows
Carter-He's puss! anyway so he shouldn't even count

Now let's look at Michaels' peers

Magic-Part of probably the greatest team of all time
Bird- See above
Isiah-Same thing
Moncrief- Awesome Bucks teams in the 80's
Barkley- Solid Phoenix teams in the mid 90's
Drexler- Blazers teams of early 90's were Portland's best outside of 77' squad

Haven't even mentioned the 90's Knicks and late 90's Jazz.

What's the best team Kobe has conquered? 2000 Blazers? 2002 Kings? PLEASE!!!!!

Kobe plays in the most watered down era the NBA has ever seen while Michael played and dominated during it's "Golden Age"


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## BigTMacFan (Jun 19, 2002)

*Raises Hand*


I wonder this - is it even a question?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> What are you kidding me? All you have to do is dump the ball into Shaq and 60% of the time he'll score. Anyone can do that. Fisher, Horry, Fox, Kobe, anyone. The only thing Kobe does that very few players can do is that sweet drive and dish where he gets Shaq easy dunks underneath. The Lakers only run that play 2-3 times a game though. However, if you don't think Shaq makes it easier on Kobe you're kidding yourself. Kobe gets doubled from time to time but Shaq is still the focus of the defense. More often that not Kobe can go one on one with his man. If teams were running 2-3 defenders at Kobe he'd be going nuts.


Kobe's ability to penetrate and dish creates easy lay ups, or dunks for Shaq. "Kobe gets double teamed from time to time?" 
What game are you watching? Kobe gets shadowed everytime he touches the ball, and is double the majority of the time. No one can check him one on one so he gets the same treatment. If they were to let him go one on one "from time to time" he'd go off. Shaq is double teamed the majority of the time as well, but you'd be kidding yourself if you think that he is always doubled. In the two games LA lost in this series, Shaq was in major foul trouble and most of those fouls were results of one on one situation when he would get called for a charging foul. Everytime you see him get called for a charge its in a one on one situation. Otherwise he would have pass out. 

Kobe is the playmaker on this team, he creates alot for Shaq. Remember that tonight when he draws the whole defense to the rim then lays it off to Shaq for an easy 2.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

I think when Kobe's career is done he will be considered better than Jordan. Why? Because athletes are going to build on what their predecessors did. Kobe is most likely to be the one to have a consistent and long career. He works hard in the off-season and he has the desire to keep improving. And unlike the previous "next Jordans" Kobe isn't plagued w/ injuries like Penny and Grant Hill. 

Then someday someone will surpass Kobe and then that kid will be surpassed etc. 

It's foolish to think it won't happen. Kobe has a long career ahead of him. Stick him on a team w/ a Shawn Marion or Elton Brand and watch him lead his team to more titles.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtime84'</b>!
> LOL at the fact that people think Jordan had less competition than Kobe.
> 
> Kobe may have to face better players at his position but Michael had to face more great TEAMS.


There have been great teams that Kobe has faced. He faced MJ's bulls and gave them 33 which was a career high at the time, I believe he was 18 at the time. Portland 2000, Spurs 2003, Sac 2002, Philly 2001, etc and he's only 24. Give it sometime.



> Moncrief- Awesome Bucks teams in the 80's


When Mike came into the league Sydney had one maybe two good years left in him.



> Kobe plays in the most watered down era the NBA has ever seen while Michael played and dominated during it's "Golden Age"


This is not the most watered down era of basketball. Jordan may have played in the greatest era so far, but that's mainly because this era so far is a more youthful era. Once this guys come into their primes it will be no different than the mid 80's to mid 90's. In fact, it will be better!


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> You really believe this


sometimes his range allows for this.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> sometimes his range allows for this.


So you really believe that Kobe Bryant has made more difficult shots in his 7 year career and Kobe Bryant makes harder shots than MJ ever has.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> So you really believe that Kobe Bryant has made more difficult shots in his 7 year career and Kobe Bryant makes harder shots than MJ ever has.


I dont think you can really say one way or the other. Kobe has made some incredible shots giving him the clutch label and has made many highly difficult shots. MJ has done the same thing only for a longer period of time. The longevity gives MJ the edge, but they both have shown us all what it means to be truly athleticly amazing and come through when his teams need it.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe's ability to penetrate and dish creates easy lay ups, or dunks for Shaq.



This is hilarious. As if shaq needs kobe's assitance in Easy Dunks or Layups. Shaq is one of the most dominant players in history, IMO the most dominate center in NBA history. Remember this is the same guy who helped institute the 8 second rule, and forced the NBA to restructure all it's backboards. 


I also hate to break it to you but everytime KG focuses on Kobe one on one and doesn't have to worry about helping his teammates defend, he owns kobe. He owns any guard one on one, he just to big to fast and to long.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> This is hilarious. As if shaq needs kobe's assitance in Easy Dunks or Layups. Shaq is one of the most dominant players in history, IMO the most dominate center in NBA history. Remember this is the same guy who helped institute the 8 second rule, and forced the NBA to restructure all it's backboards.


My post doesnt even address your reply. Where did I say Shaq *needs* Kobe's assist? Kobe creates for the big man whether you acknowledge it or not. He leads the lakers in assist and alot of those assist go to Shaquille.




> I also hate to break it to you but everytime KG focuses on Kobe one on one and doesn't have to worry about helping his teammates defend, he owns kobe. He owns any guard one on one, he just to big to fast and to long.


Thank you for breaking that down for me, Fiction boy!

Sidenote: ***No personal attacks- Louie***


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> Thank you for breaking that down for me, Fiction boy!
> 
> Sidenote: The only thing hilarious is the fact that you are a big knicks fan! :laugh: Boy, do I feel sorry for you.



Hahahha, you don't even watch your own series do you? You don't remember KG forcing kobe out past the arc and forcing him to dump every time he played at the top of the zone?


Did you start becoming a lakers fan for the friends or just so people would think you're cool?


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> I also hate to break it to you but everytime KG focuses on Kobe one on one and doesn't have to worry about helping his teammates defend, he owns kobe. He owns any guard one on one, he just to big to fast and to long.


I also hate to break this to you but almost anyone in the league can guard anyone else for a few possessions, provided they play the same position. Just because KG can check Kobe 2-3 times a game for 5 mins doesn't mean he can check him for an entire game. Kobe can guard AI for a few possessions but eventually AI would wear him out. The same thing would happen with KG when guarding Kobe.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> So you really believe that Kobe Bryant has made more difficult shots in his 7 year career and Kobe Bryant makes harder shots than MJ ever has.


i think my point is pretty obvious, kobe's range allows him to take and make some more difficult perimeter shots. that's not to say that these are smart shots nor does it say anything about the number of "tough"shots made or that he is better at tough shots in general.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> i think my point is pretty obvious, kobe's range allows him to take and make some more difficult perimeter shots. that's not to say that these are smart shots nor does it say anything about the number of "tough"shots made or that he is better at tough shots in general.


I won't comment on MJ but I think Kobe is as good as anyone at getting a quality shot off with the shot/game clock running down. They might look like bad shots but he makes quite a few of them. He can attempt shots that most guys, even the great players, can only dream of.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

BEEZ, My thing is at 24 Kobe makes tougher shots than Jordan could at 24. Kobe routinely hits fadeaway 3s, comes off a pick with a hand in his face and still manages to knock down the 3, If Jordan hit a wide open 3 it was a surprise. Kobe makes all the circus shots Jordan used to make in the lane, but Kobe finishes his with dunks while Jordan would lay it up, Kobe finishes stronger around the basket while Jordan used more finesse but both finish equally as well. At 24 Kobe's fadeaway could be the best in the league, a shot Jordan didn't develop until his first comeback. 

Somebody said something that the Lakers struggle to win championships and if Jordan was on the same team as Moses Malone or Kareem, they would win easily, well that couldn't be further from the truth. When Jordan came into the league he wasn't nearly as good as Magic was and he didn't win a championship every year with Kareem. How much have the Lakers really struggled in the playoffs? The last two championships the Lakers record in the playoffs is 30-5, including 5 sweeps!!!! How is that struggling?


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## DrFunk03 (May 13, 2003)

Is Kobe top 50 goat, is kobe first on that list, I dont think so. MJ is better then Kobe.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> BEEZ, My thing is at 24 Kobe makes tougher shots than Jordan could at 24. Kobe routinely hits fadeaway 3s, comes off a pick with a hand in his face and still manages to knock down the 3, If Jordan hit a wide open 3 it was a surprise. Kobe makes all the circus shots Jordan used to make in the lane, but Kobe finishes his with dunks while Jordan would lay it up, Kobe finishes stronger around the basket while Jordan used more finesse but both finish equally as well. At 24 Kobe's fadeaway could be the best in the league, a shot Jordan didn't develop until his first comeback.


Actually I think MJ developed that fadeaway shot in his late 20s during his first championship run. Regardless, I think Kobe has a wider arsenal of moves than anyone in the league. He's got about 50 different shots he can take from 50 different angles and all have an equal success rate.


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## Rockets#1Fan (May 13, 2003)

*Jordan owns Kobe.....*

someone asked why people always bring up the fact that Kobe has Shaq..well becuz it matters...if Shaq was with AI, McGrady, Ray Allen, or a number of others they'd be champions too. What if Jordan played with Olajuwon..he's have more than ''just six rings ''. Also what has Kobe had to overcome in his quest to be the best?..Jordan had Detroit to battle with..they made special rules for him..Kobe has had no real obsticles..thats why he's such a spoiled brat and will never be the best ever.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Please that's not even close.

Jordan wasn't nearly as inconsistant as Kobe, way more efficient, much better defensively, could win without a dominant big man , could even win with scrubs in the frontcourt and had much more natural leadership skills.

Kobe has 10-30 shooting nights and even worse quite regularly for someone who wants to compare himself to MJ.

Jordan was always among the best in FG%. Look where Kobe is...

Kobe only has 3 rings because of Shaq right now. Every allstar in the last 3 years could have won at least one ring with Shaq in the middle.
If you would put any of the Bulls championship teams in the Western Conference right now and replace Jordan with Kobe they would probably even struggle to make the playoffs.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually I think MJ developed that fadeaway shot in his late 20s during his first championship run. Regardless, I think Kobe has a wider arsenal of moves than anyone in the league. He's got about 50 different shots he can take from 50 different angles and all have an equal success rate.


Does the arsenal of 50 different shots include those weak *** pathetic off-balanced prayers (cry for the call) that he threw up in the Lakers-Spurs series SEVERAL times already with Bowen absolutely locking him up?


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Please that's not even close.
> 
> Jordan wasn't nearly as inconsistant as Kobe, way more efficient, much better defensively, could win without a dominant big man , could even win with scrubs in the frontcourt and had much more natural leadership skills.
> ...


How do you know Kobe couldn't win w/o a big man? You are telling me that Kobe and TMac or Kobe and Kidd wouldn't go to the finals at least once? It may be true but I find that hard to believe.

MJ had 10-30 shooting nights as well. Hell I've seen 10-35 nights from him so don't tell me that he never shot the ball poorly. Also if you look at MJ's fg% in the 90's when everyone's fg% dropped he was shooting about 50%. Kobe has averaged 46-47% the past 4 years. That really isn't all that big of a difference.

Every allstar winning a ring with Shaq is debatable as well. I think there are some guys who could win one or two rings with Shaq but you can't convince me that Wally World would win a ring with Shaq. The only perimeter guys that I think would win rings with him are AI, TMac, and Vince because I think they could do some of the things Kobe does. I'm not sure Kidd would be able to score 30 points a night like Kobe or if Duncan would give the Lakers enough of a perimeter threat.

Your last point is just way off base. You are telling me that the Bulls championship teams-MJ+Kobe would not even make the playoffs in the West? Keep in mind that the Bulls DID make the playoffs without MJ a couple of years ago when Scottie Pippen almost lead them to the ECF. You are telling me that ADDING Kobe to that team would make them WORSE and that they'd miss the playoffs?


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Damn, can't believe people r actually arguing this. C'mon now, MJ in his prime is flat out a better player then the current Kobe at every aspect of the game. This doesn't belittle Kobe at all though, he is a great player in his own right and i have always thought Kobe is actually just as skilled as MJ, if not more. Ofcourse, he has ways to go as far as efficiency, leadership and consistency goes to match MJ, but the guy is only 24....he's got all the time in the world to improve. 

Personally speaking, I don't think anybody will ever be as good as MJ or will be able to accomplish as many things as he did(atleast statistically speaking). The media itself will never let anybody reach MJ's status.

With that said, u can replace MJ of the bulls with Kobe, T-mac, or AI and the bulls would still win championships. That was a team that won 55 games w/o Mike, and was a phantom call away from making the finals W/O MJ. U think they wouldn't dominate w/ T-mac, Kobe or AI being THE MEN with another 50 greatest along in Pip, and a heck of a supporting cast? Anybody who disagrees is lying to themselves.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> With that said, u can replace MJ of the bulls with Kobe, T-mac, or AI and the bulls would still be champions. That was a team that won 57 games w/o Mike, and was a phantom call away from making the finals W/O MJ. U think they wouldn't dominate w/ those guyz being THE MEN with another 50 greatest in Pip, and a heck of a supporting cast? Anybody who disagrees is lying to themselves.


Thank you. Scottie Pippen, one of the more underrated players of all time, almost took the Bulls to the ECF all by himself so how would adding Kobe or TMac make them worse?


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> Damn, can't believe people r actually arguing this. C'mon now, MJ in his prime is flat out a better player then the current Kobe at every aspect of the game.


I know, I agree... it's ridiculous... at least the poll results are proving it


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> Damn, can't believe people r actually arguing this. C'mon now, MJ in his prime is flat out a better player then the current Kobe at every aspect of the game. This doesn't belittle Kobe at all though, he is a great player in his own right and i have always thought Kobe is actually just as skilled as MJ, if not more.


So are you suggesting Kobe is in his prime? Kobe is 24, you figure a players best years are from age 29-31, so he has 5 years until he hits his prime. There is no denying that he will only get better, because he isn't contempt with where he is at, he wants to be the greatest ever. Just to give you an idea of how hard he works, during the lockout, while so many other players used it as an extra vacation, Kobe was taking 2000 shots a day. How many players you think even take 500 shots a game. Kobe is great now, when he's done he will be the greatest. I am not a Kobe fan, and I hate the Lakers but I have to give respect where its due. I bet the very thing we are debating right now, people were saying the same thing about Jordan and Wilt, how he would never surpass him as the greatest. With all that said, I do feel it is absurd to make the claim that right now Kobe is a greater player than Jordan ever was. The only debate is at 24 who was better.


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## ghettobryant (Feb 15, 2003)

Another stupid thread. Jordan has had a better career so far, but Kobe will likely end up with better stats once he is done. He may also get more championships.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

if kobe averages 37ppg then i could say that he is better or equality the same.

What about TMAC dont you guys ever mention him.he is the youngest to ever average 30pts or more.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Another stupid thread. Jordan has had a better career so far, but Kobe will likely end up with better stats once he is done. He may also get more championships.


More titles? Possibly. Better stats? Doubt it. I don't see Kobe averaging 37 ppg anytime soon, but I could be wrong.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MiamiHeat03</b>!
> if kobe averages 37ppg then i could say that he is better or equality the same.


There are better ways to judge a player's worth than just scoring. Obviously MJ did it all but so does Kobe. He's also a great passer and defender in addition to being a great scorer. Hell Ricky Davis might just score 30+ ppg one of these days but he certainly isn't a great player.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re:*



> So are you suggesting Kobe is in his prime?


Never said that. Someone in this thread was comparing a prime MJ to the current Kobe and making the gap look much closer then it actually is. I just wanted to post my opinion on it. Kobe, ofcourse, is still only 24 and improving. Lets leave it at that. Can't go assuming on how many rings he will win, how many records he might break etc etc.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> So are you suggesting Kobe is in his prime? Kobe is 24, you figure a players best years are from age 29-31, so he has 5 years until he hits his prime. There is no denying that he will only get better, because he isn't contempt with where he is at, he wants to be the greatest ever.


Players don't usually hit their primes in their late 20s. They typically peak around that time. I'd say a players best years occur between the ages of 25-28. They reach their peak in their late 20s and then begin to decline in their early 30s. I'd say the next 5 years will be his prime and after that he will begin to level off a bit. However, one of the things working against him is that he's trying to catch a guy who worked as hard as he does. The one advantage Kobe has over most of the other wings is his work ethic. However, MJ worked as hard as anyone so no matter how hard Kobe tries to catch him it will be like he's running in place.


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

Wheres grizzo?

If he was here, he would bring in T-mac

Where you at grizz?


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> Wheres grizzo?
> 
> If he was here, he would bring in T-mac
> ...


Grizzo has been banned. He's probably going crazy right now wishing he could chime in on this topic.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DrFunk03</b>!
> Is Kobe top 50 goat, is kobe first on that list, I dont think so. MJ is better then Kobe.


because Jordans career is over,he passed his prime,people are saying Kobe is better then jordan when they were both 24..Kobe hasn't even reached his prime yet,get it?


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

However, we don't know how early entry to the league could have affected how early players reach their primes. For all we know, this could be Kobe's prime, since he's been playing in the NBA since he was 18. I personally believe a prime isn't a physical thing, but the peak of skill and understanding. Early in a career the talent may be there but they still don't know the game, but later in a career they may be craftier but not be able to make the shots from years past.


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

Kobe will never be the greatest. If you compare his first 7 seasons with Jordans first season, the one thing that seperates them is the dramatics. Jordan had the best playoff performance ever against one of the best defensive teams in the NBA, he had the shot in Cleveland, the slam dunk competition against Dominique, and the whole war against the Pistons, with him finally overcoming them.

That's it, until Kobe gives the fans dramatic memories that they can remember him by, he won't be the greatest. Jordans highlights in his first 7 years kills anything Kobe has done, and if that's not enough, he kills Kobe in almost every statistical catagory. 

How in the hell can somebody lead the league in scoring and be defensive player of the year all in one season. If Kobe can do that, than we'll talk.


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## zerotre (Sep 28, 2002)

matt86163, I think ur on to something. I believe highschool players hit their prime around 22-25 and last til early 30's. Because some players skip college they get a early jump on the nba this early jump accelerates their learning curve. If a player were to enter the league at 18 he would have 7 years in the nba by the age of 25. After the current crop of HS superstars retire I think we will be able to gauge when a players prime is if they entered the league at a young age.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Matt85163</b>!
> However, we don't know how early entry to the league could have affected how early players reach their primes. For all we know, this could be Kobe's prime, since he's been playing in the NBA since he was 18. I personally believe a prime isn't a physical thing, but the peak of skill and understanding. Early in a career the talent may be there but they still don't know the game, but later in a career they may be craftier but not be able to make the shots from years past.


I would have to agree with you here. It almost looks to me as if Kobe is as good as he is going to get. And Tmac looks to be getting close to his prime, maybe in one more year or two. Also KG, I don't think he can have a much better year than this last season. He may be in his prime, or close to it.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

Is Kobe a good player? No doubt.
Does he have the potential to be one of the best players ever? Yes.

But he isn't in Jordan's category yet. Neither is TMac. Kobe is closer than TMac at this point, but you have to realize how much of an effect MJ had on the game of basketball. MJ was basketball for the 90's. His jersey sales were astronomical. He was easily one of the most recognized athletes ever. Thats saying a lot. 

Kobe hasn't had the time to do all of that yet. But he is not in MJ's class yet. He has time........plenty of it. But to compare the 2 now, the edge is MJ. MJ was so effective for so long. His longevity is unparallel for many athletes. MJ was in his mid 30's during the last championship runs with the Bulls. Yet he was still the best in the league.............

Kobe cannot be compared to MJ until both careers are finished. MJ's is finished. But Kobe has 10 more years to fulfill his career.

But, if you had to have an answer now- Then MJ was better than Kobe. No doubt.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

Jordan never duplicated his statistical achievement of his 3rd and 4th year, where he averaged 37 and 35 points respectively, but nobody considers those his best years. While Kobe, T Mac's and KG's statistics may not be much greater than they were this year, they can still improve a lot. Leadership is something all 3 can improve on, and that is the main thing that seperated Jordan from all other players, he was the unquestioned leader of his teams. Jordan didn't make other players around him better in his early years, that was something he learned to do as he got older, something that these players have time to do. There is no way any of these players have peaked, all of them just get better every year, and they will continue to improve for a few more years before they begin to level off and eventually decline, but dont think the process of them leveling off has begun.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

People who would even argue that Kobe is better than MJ at the same age obviously never watched MJ at the same age. People who argue that Kobe cannot become better than MJ don't know basketball. The truth is that MJ is better than Kobe at 24 or 25 but Kobe DOES have the desire, skill, and work ethic to become a better player but he is not yet. I doubt however that Kobe will ever achieve MJ's mythical stature (legacy) but definetly reaching or surpassing MJ as a player (skill+winning) is a possibility. Anyways, MJ right now is the greatest player ever as far as legacy+stats+skill+championship but the most skilled player ever is Oscar. You can't compare between players in different eras, instead you should compare how they did against those who they competed. There is no question with that notion that Oscar is the most skilled player EVER. Wilt the most dominant and MJ the greatest. This league is going to be great with players like Kobe and TMac but NEVER (and I don't want to jump the gun here) forget Lebron. I wonder how he will be at 24 becuz he is wayyyyy better than MJ or Kobe at 18...ask anyone who has seen them at that age.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> Jordan never duplicated his statistical achievement of his 3rd and 4th year, where he averaged 37 and 35 points respectively, but nobody considers those his best years. While Kobe, T Mac's and KG's statistics may not be much greater than they were this year, they can still improve a lot. Leadership is something all 3 can improve on, and that is the main thing that seperated Jordan from all other players, he was the unquestioned leader of his teams. Jordan didn't make other players around him better in his early years, that was something he learned to do as he got older, something that these players have time to do. There is no way any of these players have peaked, all of them just get better every year, and they will continue to improve for a few more years before they begin to level off and eventually decline, but dont think the process of them leveling off has begun.


This is true. MJ changed his game later on. He became a more complete player offensively and defensely. MJ was at his best as a player in the early 90s as far as skill and winning. But those 37 ppg and 35 ppg years were his most dominant as a player. He was unstoppable but there is no question that MJ was a better player in the early 90s.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

A)Doesn't rank first in any category that matters.
B)His FG% has DECREASED since last year.
C)His TOs have INCREASED a lot since last year (.8 more a game)


Kobe shoots 45%. Because of the way ESPN/TNT have decided for us that we all only like to watch the Lakers, I've seen him play a lot... way too much.

I will not consider Kobe the GOAT or even the best player in the league until he STOPS FORCING SHOTS. Kobe and Jordan both have extreme competitive edges, this is correct. Kobe on the other hand is too in your face about it... what I mean by that is he wants all the awards and the stats, the team comes second.

If we play word association, and you say Kobe I say selfish. He is a great shooter when open or 1v1 but he should never, ever, ever shoot on a double team... yet he DOES. I wish I could pull percentages when double teamed, Kobe shoots no more than 30%. Yet he SHOOTS on double teams! WHY? He can dump to Shaq, the de-facto best player in the league, he can pass to some of the best set shooters in the game in Derek Fisher, Devean George and Robert Horry. Yet he still shoots. To me that says, "I want points. I want to be on Sportscenter. I want my fans to go online and to websites like Basketballboards.net and make posts comparing me to Jordan." 

And that's why I do not like Kobe as a player, while I respect his ability. I firmly, firmly believe that Kobe would have trouble carrying his own team because he doesn't improve the players around him, he actually detracts from their games.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
> A)Doesn't rank first in any category that matters.
> B)His FG% has DECREASED since last year.
> C)His TOs have INCREASED a lot since last year (.8 more a game)
> ...


The same was once said about MJ. MJ admitted looking at the scorecards after games to make he still lead the league in scoring. People tend to forget the hate MJ used to get earlier in his career.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
> A)Doesn't rank first in any category that matters.
> B)His FG% has DECREASED since last year.
> C)His TOs have INCREASED a lot since last year (.8 more a game)
> ...


Amen. 

And I live in the LA area, I know Kobes game better than 90% of these bandwagon fans, and you are 100% correct. 

Another kobe weakness: letting himself fade out in games so he can use shaq as a decoy and attack strong in the 4th. If he had to carry his own team, he could never do that, ever. 

Dont expect to change the minds of these people, though, just know I'm with ya on this.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Amen.
> ...


That is what separates Kobe from MJ is their cerebral content of the game. But at 24, MJ forced many shots much like Kobe. I won't hold Kobe to that even though it is definitely one of his weaknesses especially if the argument was against MJ.


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## sjfinest5 (Mar 27, 2003)

Kobe has to prove that he can lead a team on his own because all the great once were able to do so, a la MJ. kobe is extremely talented but he is not on MJ's level, not yet at least. but until he proves to me that he can win without the big guy, there shouldnt be any talk about comparing him with MJ


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> The same was once said about MJ. MJ admitted looking at the scorecards after games to make he still lead the league in scoring. People tend to forget the hate MJ used to get earlier in his career.


This is the exact reason why Kobe will only improve as a player, once he gets over the wanting to be the best statisically, and uderstands there is more to being the best, that is when you'll see him accomplish things no other player ever has. When he had his 40 point streak, it was obvious towards the end that all he wanted to do was force up shots and hoped they dropped so he could to that 40 point mark. The last game of the season he needed 39 points to average 30 a game, everybody knew he would go after it, he took 28 shots but made 16 so he his 44 and the 30 point a game mark. 

I think playing with Shaq has made want to prove to himself and others that he is the man of the team. Once Shaq is gone, or Kobe leaves, and Kobe is the unquestioned best player on his team, he'll stop trying so hard to be called the best, and just play the game.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> 
> This is the exact reason why Kobe will only improve as a player, once he gets over the wanting to be the best statisically, and uderstands there is more to being the best, that is when you'll see him accomplish things no other player ever has. When he had his 40 point streak, it was obvious towards the end that all he wanted to do was force up shots and hoped they dropped so he could to that 40 point mark. The last game of the season he needed 39 points to average 30 a game, everybody knew he would go after it, he took 28 shots but made 16 so he his 44 and the 30 point a game mark.
> ...


VERY TRUE. That is why there is no quesion MJ was a better player in the seasons which he was his least statistically dominant. There is more to basketball than stats. But later on you kind of missed the old MJ...the one that would go off and score 50 points and dunk like 11 times per game. But Jordan would trade those points for his rings anyday. I actually believe that a earlier MJ would not coexist with Pippen. Pippen would never have become the player he became if MJ did not give him a share of his spotlight. An early MJ was clearly a "ball hog" much like AI and Kobe are considered now. But one thing I love about Kobe's attitude is the fact that he has the desire to become the greatest and he works hard to try to be much like Jordan was at 24. You don't even begin to understand how they live and breathe basketball...Kobe has been that way since HS.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>sjfinest5</b>!
> Kobe has to prove that he can lead a team on his own because all the great once were able to do so, a la MJ. kobe is extremely talented but he is not on MJ's level, not yet at least. but until he proves to me that he can win without the big guy, there shouldnt be any talk about comparing him with MJ


I'm tired of all the "Jordan did it by himself" talk, Jordan had Scottie Pippen, one of the greatest players ever. Without Scottie the Bulls win 0 championships, Scottie was the reason they beat the Lakers, Magic was dominating Mike for the first game and a half then Phil made the switch and put Scottie on him, for the rest of the series Scottie made life hell for Magic. 
No superstar with the exception of Hakeem Olajuwan has every won a championship without the help of another hall of famer. Isaih had Joe Dumars, and Rodman, who should be a hall of famer because of his great defensive and rebounding abilities. Magic had Kareem, Bird had McHale, Shaq and Kobe have each other. Nobody will win a championship with just 1 superstar ever again, unless they have a few other players who do a particular thing well.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> I also hate to break this to you but almost anyone in the league can guard anyone else for a few possessions, provided they play the same position. Just because KG can check Kobe 2-3 times a game for 5 mins doesn't mean he can check him for an entire game. Kobe can guard AI for a few possessions but eventually AI would wear him out. The same thing would happen with KG when guarding Kobe.



You're not breaking anything to me. Kevin garnett can guard any shooting guard in the league, he just doesn't have the luxury. Reference the game where Tracy Mcgrady said "he had never been D'd up like that in his life"


Just because Garnett plays forward doesn't mean he lack latter quickness ball handling ability Vertical leal and speed. He has those qualities in abundance. Also, in reference to your point about Kobe and AI . Check the Splits. He does D Iverson up, and quite well Notice how Iversons FG percentage drops most dramatically when playing the lakers houston and phoenix ( well phoenix in the marbury era) this shouldn't be a shock as it is due primarily to the fact that Francis Marbury and Kobe match up well against him and generally hold him to under 40% shooting. Kevin garnett can do the same thing you just really have to dig through the game splits, as he almost never gets the oppurtunity.

In a perfect world KG would play small forward, and this thread would be as worthless as a Kobe VS Jordan thread.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

listen to the doctor, the speaks the truth.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Hahahha, you don't even watch your own series do you? You don't remember KG forcing kobe out past the arc and forcing him to dump every time he played at the top of the zone?


Foolish boy, of course I watch the Lakers series. What I remember most about the series against Minny concerning Kobe is he averaged 32+. I also remember KG guarding Kobe for very brief intervals. To say that a player own's another after barely guarding him one on one is more laughable. And if you say he guarded Kobe more than I remember, how did Kobe average 32+..... hardly owned.
Now you can chuckle it up all you like. :laugh:




> Did you start becoming a lakers fan for the friends or just so people would think you're cool?


:mrt:

Neither.


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## H2O (Jul 10, 2002)

I was thinking about this, (because the whole topic of this thread was bugging me) and it seems to me that anyone who says that Kobe is better than MJ is more than just a little bit crazy. These people obviously didn't see MJ rip apart the league for a solid decade.

In my mind this comparison is like saying Stevie Ray Vaughn is better than Jimi Hendrix. Now Stevie Ray is a great, great guitarist. One of the most impressive technically ever. But Jimi, I mean, just wow! Unquestionably one of the alltime greatest and most creative, visionary and original player of all time.

Kobe is a great, great basketball player, but Jordan, I mean, just wow!

You know what I'm saying.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>H2O</b>!
> I was thinking about this, (because the whole topic of this thread was bugging me) and it seems to me that anyone who says that Kobe is better than MJ is more than just a little bit crazy. These people obviously didn't see MJ rip apart the league for a solid decade.
> 
> In my mind this comparison is like saying Stevie Ray Vaughn is better than Jimi Hendrix. Now Stevie Ray is a great, great guitarist. One of the most impressive technically ever. But Jimi, I mean, just wow! Unquestionably one of the alltime greatest and most creative, visionary and original player of all time.
> ...


I agree!! MJ led the league in scoring 10 straight years. I don't see Kobe doing that.:no:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*The Kobe double standard? Man O' Man*



> Originally posted by <b>Rockets#1Fan</b>!
> someone asked why people always bring up the fact that Kobe has Shaq..well becuz it matters...if Shaq was with AI, McGrady, Ray Allen, or a number of others they'd be champions too. What if Jordan played with Olajuwon..he's have more than ''just six rings ''. Also what has Kobe had to overcome in his quest to be the best?..Jordan had Detroit to battle with..they made special rules for him..Kobe has had no real obsticles..thats why he's such a spoiled brat and will never be the best ever.


That is an irrelavant point. No great players has to prove that he can win with anyone other than the teammates he's won with. Shaq doesn't have to prove he can win without Kobe, Magic doesn't have to come out of retirement to prove that he can win without Kareem and Worthy(two of 50 greats of all time), Kobe is no different. 

If Jordan played with Akeem is irrelavant because that never happened. Jordan had to battle tough Detroit teams? Kobe has done his fair share of battling tough teams as well and he will on continue to fight; hes only 24.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree!! MJ led the league in scoring 10 straight years. I don't see Kobe doing that.:no:


There will be alot of things that MJ did and Kobe will not and vice versa. Since there is no definition of what the greatest is, comparing this stat to Kobe lack of proves no point. I could say, Wilt averaged 50ppg, and he scored 100 in one game, MJ didn't do that...... Just know that all these accomplishments give players reckognition as the greatest, Wilt, Jordan, and a 24 year old named Kobe. 24 years old with maybe 15 years left in him. 
Think about it.


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## BigTMacFan (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: The Kobe double standard? Man O' Man*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> That is an irrelavant point. No great players has to prove that he can win with anyone other than the teammates he's won with. Shaq doesn't have to prove he can win without Kobe, Magic doesn't have to come out of retirement to prove that he can win without Kareem and Worthy(two of 50 greats of all time), Kobe is no different.
> ...


It'd be nice for the Kobe groupies if it was irrelevant, but it isn't. The point that everyone but those who favor the Purple and Gold grasps is that the game is much easier for Kobe because he plays with the most dominating player in the game. Having Shaq on your team helps you on Offense, helps you on Defense, etc. Simply put - Kobe has ridden the O'Neal train to his glory, not earned it on his own.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*You ever notice how some comments never come out of reporters or commentators mouths?*

That's because they have to be unbias. You are not! 



> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> It'd be nice for the Kobe groupies if it was irrelevant, but it isn't. The point that everyone but those who favor the Purple and Gold grasps is that the game is much easier for Kobe because he plays with the most dominating player in the game. Having Shaq on your team helps you on Offense, helps you on Defense, etc. Simply put - Kobe has ridden the O'Neal train to his glory, not earned it on his own.


Does it not help to have an All NBA first teamer on your team on offense?
Does it not help to have an all league defensive teamer on defense?
Does it not help to have an MVP canindate who ranked higher than you(Shaq) in the voting?
Does it not help to have a guy who broke 3 historical NBA records this year on your team?
I could go on.....
Last I checked Kobe is all of those things.
Simply put enough with the double standards.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: Re: The Kobe double standard? Man O' Man*



> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> It'd be nice for the Kobe groupies if it was irrelevant, but it isn't. The point that everyone but those who favor the Purple and Gold grasps is that the game is much easier for Kobe because he plays with the most dominating player in the game. Having Shaq on your team helps you on Offense, helps you on Defense, etc. Simply put - Kobe has ridden the O'Neal train to his glory, not earned it on his own.


that must be why kobe's getting 1st team all-nba and all-defense awards, finishing 3rd in mvp voting - they all favor the purple and gold. that must be their way of saying you're riding o'neals train to glory.

i think you need to open your eyes and your ears. kobe's getting credit because the guy can play.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: The Kobe double standard? Man O' Man*



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> that must be why kobe's getting 1st team all-nba and all-defense awards, finishing 3rd in mvp voting - they all favor the purple and gold. that must be their way of saying you're riding o'neals train to glory.
> ...


Eye to eye kflo! :cheers:

I wish the haters would just chill out. :whoknows:


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## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

Of course Kobe is an awesome player. You'd have to be a fool not to realise that. The question was "Is Jordan better than Kobe?". Thats why everyone brings up Shaq. If Jordan in his prime was on the Lakers team, there is no way the Lakers would have been the fifth seed in the playoffs and on the brink of elimination by a team that can't seem to put two halves together.


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## BigTMacFan (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: You ever notice how some comments never come out of reporters or commentators mouths?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> That's because they have to be unbias. You are not!
> 
> 
> ...


And this comes from a paragon of neutral observation, right?

Anyway - yes Kobe is all those things. He is all those things _because_ Shaq is on his team. Shaq takes the majority of the defensive attention, allowing Kobe more easy looks. Kobe is a good defender because he's allowed to stay in the chest of his man, knowing if he gets beat the 300lb gorilla will step over and eat the man that got by him. In all situations having Shaq makes the game easier.

There is no double standard. Simply unreasoning refusal to see the light on the part of the Kobe-cultists.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>tenkev</b>!
> Of course Kobe is an awesome player. You'd have to be a fool not to realise that. The question was "Is Jordan better than Kobe?". Thats why everyone brings up Shaq. *If Jordan in his prime was on the Lakers team, there is no way the Lakers would have been the fifth seed in the playoffs and on the brink of elimination* by a team that can't seem to put two halves together.


What would be the difference if it were Jordan in his prime or Kobe now?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: You ever notice how some comments never come out of reporters or commentators mouths?*



> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> And this comes from a paragon of neutral observation, right?


I know that I am "THE" Kobe fan not a kobe fan but "THE" Kobe fan, but how it that not a unbias observation? Everything I stated is factual. Your points are "If's" and full of speculation.
Why can't you deal with what's real instead of what you would like to be real?



> Anyway - yes Kobe is all those things. He is all those things _because_ Shaq is on his team. Shaq takes the majority of the defensive attention, allowing Kobe more easy looks. Kobe is a good defender because he's allowed to stay in the chest of his man, knowing if he gets beat the 300lb gorilla will step over and eat the man that got by him. In all situations having Shaq makes the game easier.


Same old' malarkey as usual. If Kobe is all of those thing then leave it at that. He's not all NBA because of Shaq. He's number increase without Shaq, that's another fact. Wins may not be there, but that doesn't keep you from being all NBA. 
Stop the sippin man, Stop the sippin' At what point do you become less thirsty?



> There is no double standard. Simply unreasoning refusal to see the light on the part of the Kobe-cultists.


If there's no double standard. who is the guy who needs to prove himself with the other?

Joe Montana or Jerry Rice?
Magic or Kareem?
Wilt or West?
Stockton or Malone?
Baylor or West?
Robinson or Duncan?
Irvin, Aikman, or Smith?


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## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> What would be the difference if it were Jordan in his prime or Kobe now?


I'll tell you the difference. Jordan would not be forced into those fadeaway J's that Kobe is taking all the time. Bruce Bowen would not be able to keep him in check. Jordan would be getting to the hole and finishing almost every time he wanted to. People forget just how fast Jordan was. He could blow by any San Antonio defender. Shaq would get more easy putbacks because Duncan or Robinson would have to collapse on the penetrating Jordan.


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## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: You ever notice how some comments never come out of reporters or commentators mouths?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> Joe Montana or Jerry Rice?
> Magic or Kareem?
> ...


Jerry Rice won a Super Bowl without Montana and Montana won one without Rice. 

Same for Magic and Kareem.

Same for Wilt and West.

Stockton and Malone's numbers might have been inflated playing with each other, but nobody is saying they are the best players of all time.


----------



## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> listen to the doctor, the speaks the truth.


TRUTH! :yes:


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree!! MJ led the league in scoring 10 straight years. I don't see Kobe doing that.:no:


MJ didn't technically lead the league in ten straight years...D Rob and Shaq would very much disagree with that. MJ did however lead ten straight years he PLAYED. Anyways it can be argued that Kobe should have 3 straight scoring titles already if Shaq was not there but that is speculation. You are right I do not ever see anyone matching MJ's 10 scoring titles. That is why like I said in an earlier reply that Kobe will probably never come close to Jordan's legacy but he could very well surpass him as a player meaning skills.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: You ever notice how some comments never come out of reporters or commentators mouths*



> Originally posted by <b>tenkev</b>!
> 
> 
> Jerry Rice won a Super Bowl without Montana and Montana won one without Rice.
> ...


Good point!!:yes: Will Kobe win one without Shaq:no:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: You ever notice how some comments never come out of reporters or commentators mouths*



> Originally posted by <b>tenkev</b>!
> 
> 
> Jerry Rice won a Super Bowl without Montana and Montana won one without Rice.


I was hoping you'd say that.
You think anyone thinks Montana is less of a QB for not winning without Rice? Isn't he arguably the greatest QB to ever play the game?



> Same for Magic and Kareem.


So Kareem is less of a great players because he won with Magic but not without?



> Same for Wilt and West.


So wilt is Kobe or West is Kobe? Neither won a title without the other?



> Stockton and Malone's numbers might have been inflated playing with each other, but nobody is saying they are the best players of all time.


Stockton is arguably the best point guard in NBA history.
Malone is arguably the best power forward in NBA history.

I honestly have never once heard a fan question eithers greatness on the grounds that they play together, because its a moot point. Totally irrelavant.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You ever notice how some comments never come out of reporters or commentators mo*



> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> Good point!!:yes: Will Kobe win one without Shaq:no:


I knew you'd cosign on this one. Doesn't that 33 stand for Scottie Pippen? Hmmmmmm..... So what about him. 
He also is less of a great player because he hasn't proven he could win a title without Mike?


----------



## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You ever notice how some comments never come out of reporters or commentator*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I knew you'd cosign on this one. Doesn't that 33 stand for Scottie Pippen? Hmmmmmm..... So what about him.
> He also is less of a great player because he hasn't proven he could win a title without Mike?


Don't try to flip it. My favorite player is Pip, no doubt. This thread is about Kobe, you know, the one swinging from Shaq's ***edited-Louie*** :laugh: :laugh:


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

We will never truly know what most of us already Know to be the truth.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> We will never truly know what most of us already Know to be the truth.


Whatchu talkin' bout Willis?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Truthfully Kobe haters do more swinging than anyone, Shaq is your crutch.*



> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't try to flip it. My favorite player is Pip, no doubt. This thread is about Kobe, you know, *the one swinging from Shaq's pubic hairs*:laugh: :laugh:


Can he say that? :whoknows:

Good Retreat though?


----------



## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> Whatchu talkin' bout Willis?



I don't know..(Jordan Rules)... i just don't know..(Jordan Rules):yes:


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Truthfully Kobe haters do more swinging than anyone, Shaq is your crutch.*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Can he say that? :whoknows:
> ...



Yes I can say that b/c it is true. Kobe be just like this


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Be good boy 33, and quit baiting. :naughty:


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> Be good boy 33, and quit baiting. :naughty:


I'm not baiting, just hating


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

:thand:


----------



## BigTMacFan (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You ever notice how some comments never come out of reporters or commentators mo*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> I honestly have never once heard a fan question eithers greatness on the grounds that they play together, because its a moot point. Totally irrelavant.


You are missing the point. No one is saying that Kobe isn't great (at least I'm not) but rather that he isn't close to Jordan's level. This is based on Kobe having gotten his success on the coat tails of the most dominating player in the league rather than getting it as the main guy ala Jordan. Yes, Jordan needed Pippen. Shaq also needs a 2nd star. Kobe is that and he's good at it, but he simply can't be close to the GOAT if he isn't even tops on his own team.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You ever notice how some comments never come out of reporters or commentator*



> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> You are missing the point. No one is saying that Kobe isn't great (at least I'm not) but rather that he isn't close to Jordan's level. This is based on Kobe having gotten his success on the coat tails of the most dominating player in the league rather than getting it as the main guy ala Jordan. Yes, Jordan needed Pippen. Shaq also needs a 2nd star. Kobe is that and he's good at it, but he simply can't be close to the GOAT if he isn't even tops on his own team.


Kobe was but is no longer a 2nd star he hasn't been for 2-3 years. Whose the second star?
30-7-6-2
or
27-11-3

Who is it?


----------



## BigTMacFan (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You ever notice how some comments never come out of reporters or comment*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe was but is no longer a 2nd star he hasn't been for 2-3 years. Whose the second star?
> ...



Kobe.

You've really gone off the deep end if you think Kobe is more important than Shaq.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*I'm not the only one.*

56% of voters are also over the deep end


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

I guess its hard to argue with facts, isn't it Tmac fan?


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

IV, i think that poll may have a lot to do with the fact that Kobe is more of a glamour player- that is, he's more entertaining and exciting to watch. 
Shaq is the most important part of this team, IMO. Kobe is the leader, no doubt, but Shaq is the engine. He's the one player in this league who cannot be guarded.


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## BigTMacFan (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> I guess its hard to argue with facts, isn't it Tmac fan?


Lol...

It's so fitting that a Kobe-groupie would confuse opinion polls with facts.

Remember - NBA.com voters also voted Grant Hill the starting SF on the eastern All-Star squad 2 seasons ago when he'd only played 14 games.

Your arrogance over an opinion poll as "fact" makes it even more humorous.


----------



## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You ever notice how some comments never come out of reporters or commentators mo*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I was hoping you'd say that.
> You think anyone thinks Montana is less of a QB for not winning without Rice? Isn't he arguably the greatest QB to ever play the game?


Uhh, yeah. Two points:

A. Montana DID win a Super Bowl without Rice.
B. Football is much less dependent on one or two individuals than basketball is. You need a bunch of great players to win a Super Bowl.


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## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: I'm not the only one.*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 56% of voters are also over the deep end


A. That question was for this year. 

2. That poll was unscientific. Kobe lovers like IV and grizzo probably voted 10 or 12 times.

III. People are stupid. Public opinion means nothing.


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## Vince Carter (Jan 9, 2003)

Sorry but the three people who said they both suck, you have to knowledge of basketball, and you shoulden’t be here on this message board, you should be ban in my opinion.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: I'm not the only one.*



> Originally posted by <b>tenkev</b>!
> 
> 
> A. That question was for this year.


In others words your living in the past. 



> 2. That poll was unscientific. Kobe lovers like IV and grizzo probably voted 10 or 12 times.


It is really not that serious. 



> III. People are stupid. Public opinion means nothing.


Than quit trying to convince me otherwise. Have your opinion and I'll have mine.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You ever notice how some comments never come out of reporters or commentator*



> Originally posted by <b>tenkev</b>!
> 
> 
> Uhh, yeah. Two points:
> ...


I stand corrected, however the point that you have to prove that you can win with and without a particular teammate is selectively bias, and ridiculous.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Lol...
> ...


 :mrt:
You are the Mr. T boy of this site!
I'm not saying this is poll makes it a fact that Kobe is MVP of the lakers...... The fact is 56% of the people who voted belief that Kobe is more valueble to LA than any other player. We can't really say definitively that one is or isn't all we can do is listen to other peoples opinions. The poll proves that the people who agree with me, out number those who agree with you. That is a fact.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: I'm not the only one.*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> In others words your living in the past.
> ...


IV, you have been salty all damn day:|


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*that couldn't be further from the truth*



> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> IV, you have been salty all damn day:|


You seem overly pressed to bait me. Don't be so anal 33.

I know LA loses, and is now facing an elimination game so all Lakers haters belief that Laker fans are worried and defensive. Just know that true Lakers fans are not the least bit worried about them lose in game 6 or 7. In fact, you all are more worried that the Spurs will lose because you know it will likely happen.
Hang on to you rabbit foots haters, eventhough it would do you any good. :laugh:


----------



## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: that couldn't be further from the truth*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> You seem overly pressed to bait me. Don't be so anal 33.
> ...


The Lakers look very vulnerable, more than ever. I don't care what you LA fans say, I know you are a little worried. And I'm not anal at all. I'm not trying to bait you either. I will say that you do seem very defensive, combatting everything I say making it more obvious of your concern for your favorite team. If I was a Laker coach, I would urge Phil Jackson to through Samaki Walker in the game........he's the difference maker:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: that couldn't be further from the truth*



> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> The Lakers look very vulnerable, more than ever. I don't care what you LA fans say, I know you are a little worried. And I'm not anal at all. I'm not trying to bait you either. I will say that you do seem very defensive, combatting everything I say making it more obvious of your concern for your favorite team.


I dispute anything anyone says about LA that I dont agree with and have since I first joined the boards. If I wasn't concerned about them losing then, I sure as hell aren't now.

If you dont think you've bait me, go to your user CP. Check each of the post you have had all day. You've spent the entire day bait me in the Laker forum or here. You've even harrassed Vintage in the EBB forum. You antagonizing a person doesn't mean he is defensive. I have an argumentive personality so I will always reply. Once you've made me salty I'd more likely not respond in an effort to keep myself from getting more salty. 

And trust me, laker fans are not worried. I bet you thought we were "concerned" when Minny went up 2 games to 1? :laugh:

Think about this, Is it more important to a Laker fan that they win a 4th title this year, or is it more important to a Laker hater that they lose?


----------



## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: that couldn't be further from the truth*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> Think about this, Is it more important to a Laker fan that they win a 4th title this year, or is it more important to a Laker hater that they lose?


You know what, its much much much much more important to us Laker haters that they lose than it is important to a Laker fan that they win. 

So what?


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: that couldn't be further from the truth*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I dispute anything anyone says about LA that I dont agree with and have since I first joined the boards. If I wasn't concerned about them losing then, I sure as hell aren't now.
> ...


Damn, are you electronically stalking me? I may have posted some hateration in the Laker forum, but none of it was directed to you. You replied to each one of my posts, and what does Vintage have to do with anything. It's obvious that your personality is getting the best of you and if you need counseling, I got 5 on it.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: that couldn't be further from the truth*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I dispute anything anyone says about LA that I dont agree with and have since I first joined the boards. If I wasn't concerned about them losing then, I sure as hell aren't now.
> ...


Hey IV as a huge Laker fan I want to ask you something becuz one of your points brings up one of my arguments with a buddy.
I myself am a Laker fan not becuz of bandwagon but Magic in the 80's. Anyone that knows me knows that Magic is my fav player of alltime!!! As a Laker fan I actually want them to lose this year. Why? It would refocus the team and make Shaq more hungry next year. Who knows he might actually come into camp in shape...imagine! Kobe obviously willl always work to get better and the criticisms the Lakes will receive if they fail for the 4th will fuel the blood of Shaq, Kobe, and Phil. This will no doubt make their basketball exciting becuz the Lakes...let's be honest here are quite boring...of course the Triangle has to do with that but I see a loss in passion. Heck the only thing that made their season exciting was Kobe's streak. I was wondering how you feel about that?

Think about this, Is it more important to a Laker fan that they win a 4th title this year, or is it more important to a Laker hater that they lose? This is the greatest question I have seen for a longtime on this board!!!


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*there's no dignity in what your doing?*

:thand:


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: there's no dignity in what your doing?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> :thand:


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: that couldn't be further from the truth*



> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey IV as a huge Laker fan I want to ask you something becuz one of your points brings up one of my arguments with a buddy.
> I myself am a Laker fan not becuz of bandwagon but Magic in the 80's. Anyone that knows me knows that Magic is my fav player of alltime!!! As a Laker fan I actually want them to lose this year. Why? It would refocus the team and make Shaq more hungry next year. Who knows he might actually come into camp in shape...imagine! Kobe obviously willl always work to get better and the criticisms the Lakes will receive if they fail for the 4th will fuel the blood of Shaq, Kobe, and Phil. This will no doubt make their basketball exciting becuz the Lakes...let's be honest here are quite boring...of course the Triangle has to do with that but I see a loss in passion. Heck the only thing that made their season exciting was Kobe's streak. I was wondering how you feel about that?


I happen to agree with you but with a twist. Since I'm a laker fan, I can't want them to lose. With all the ups and downs and how hard they have had to fight to get where they are, it must invoke a spark in someone, especially Shaq. The team needs to refocus itself in this offseason. I would like to see Shaq get into to playing shape, of course, Kobe will be ready, also we should dump a few of these guys who are getting old and find some young attractive additions to the supporting cast. I am hopeful they can do this and win the title this year; if not, I'm confident that LA will have no choice but to shape up and turn back into the monster that once ruled the NBA. 

Yes they are boring, but at times they play the most exciting basketball in the league at least IMO, mainly because I'm a fan.



> Think about this, Is it more important to a Laker fan that they win a 4th title this year, or is it more important to a Laker hater that they lose? This is the greatest question I have seen for a longtime on this board!!!


Thanks


----------



## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: that couldn't be further from the truth*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I happen to agree with you but with a twist. Since I'm a laker fan, I can't want them to lose. With all the ups and downs and how hard they have had to fight to get where they are, it must invoke a spark in someone, especially Shaq. The team needs to refocus itself in this offseason. I would like to see Shaq get into to playing shape, of course, Kobe will be ready, also we should dump a few of these guys who are getting old and find some young attractive additions to the supporting cast. I am hopeful they can do this and win the title this year; if not, I'm confident that LA will have no choice but to shape up and turn back into the monster that once ruled the NBA.
> ...


Agreed. It's weird but I want them to win and lose at the same time. But it would be great to see a refocused Shaq like in 99-00.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: that couldn't be further from the truth*



> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> it would be great to see a refocused Shaq like in 99-00.


Exactly, he is definately not the same player he was then.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

This is off topic, but I felt this was necessary to say, too many people say Scottie never won a title without Mike, and he just hopped on his back, that couldn't be more untrue. I think Mike played a total of 6 seasons without Scottie on his team, and has had exactly 0 winning seasons in those 6, and never won a playoff game. Scottie on the other hand, has nearly been to the finals, nearly won an MVP, and has never had a losing season without Mike. I am not saying Scottie is better than Mike, but alll that should let you know how important Scottie was to the Bulls dyansty. 
This is also the reason why Kobe doesn't have to win a title without Shaq to be considered the greatest, because JOrdan's teams never even made a dent on the NBA without Scottie. People are losing sight of this thread, the whole argument is supposed to be is Kobe already a greater player than Mike ever was, and the answer is clearly no, because as of right now you couldn't say Kobe is a greater player than Dominique Wilkins, 7 years isn't enough to judge somebody's greatness.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> This is off topic, but I felt this was necessary to say, too many people say Scottie never won a title without Mike, and he just hopped on his back, that couldn't be more untrue. I think Mike played a total of 6 seasons without Scottie on his team, and has had exactly 0 winning seasons in those 6, and never won a playoff game. Scottie on the other hand, has nearly been to the finals, nearly won an MVP, and has never had a losing season without Mike. I am not saying Scottie is better than Mike, but alll that should let you know how important Scottie was to the Bulls dyansty.
> This is also the reason why Kobe doesn't have to win a title without Shaq to be considered the greatest, *because JOrdan's teams never even made a dent on the NBA without Scottie.* People are losing sight of this thread, the whole argument is supposed to be is Kobe already a greater player than Mike ever was, and the answer is clearly no, *because as of right now you couldn't say Kobe is a greater player than Dominique Wilkins*, 7 years isn't enough to judge somebody's greatness.


I agree with everything you said except the bolded. Kobe is much than Dominic Wilkins. And Jordan had established himself as a great player before Scottie got there. Pip simply add to the team giving make what it takes to win, quality teammates.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> This is off topic, but I felt this was necessary to say, too many people say Scottie never won a title without Mike, and he just hopped on his back, that couldn't be more untrue. I think Mike played a total of 6 seasons without Scottie on his team, and has had exactly 0 winning seasons in those 6, and never won a playoff game. Scottie on the other hand, has nearly been to the finals, nearly won an MVP, and has never had a losing season without Mike. I am not saying Scottie is better than Mike, but alll that should let you know how important Scottie was to the Bulls dyansty.
> This is also the reason why Kobe doesn't have to win a title without Shaq to be considered the greatest, because JOrdan's teams never even made a dent on the NBA without Scottie. People are losing sight of this thread, the whole argument is supposed to be is Kobe already a greater player than Mike ever was, and the answer is clearly no, because as of right now you couldn't say Kobe is a greater player than Dominique Wilkins, 7 years isn't enough to judge somebody's greatness.


Pippen came in 87-88 but he was hardly the player he is today. In the seasons MJ played without Pip the Bulls were:

84-85 38-44
85-86 30-52 MJ was injured and only played 18 games but scored 63 vs. the Celts in the playoffs 1st round.
86-87 40-42 MJ's infamous 37.1 ppg season

All three seasons MJ and his Bulls got ousted in the first round in 85-86 and 86-87 courtesy of Bird and his Celtics. MJ lost against the Bucks in 84-85...3-1 a team that featured Terry Cummings and Sidney Moncrief.

Pip actually did not come into his own until his 2nd season 88-89. In 87-88 MJ led the Bulls to a 50-32 record with a rook Pip averaging 7.9 ppg. In that year they went to the 2nd round and lost against the incredible Bad Boy Pistons. In 87-88 MJ scored 35 ppg and won MVP and Defensive Player of the Year. First player to ever do that. To me that was MJ greatest statistical season. He did not score as much as 86-87...2 points less...but he took 4 less shots and shot 54% from the field and averaged more rebounds and assists and collected a whopping 259 steals.

Go to this link to see the Bull's roster stats that year...MJ was everything.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=CHI&lg=n&yr=1987


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> I agree with everything you said except the bolded. Kobe is much than Dominic Wilkins.


Dude, I think you're forgetting just how good Dominique was. Not only was he one of the most athletic players *ever*, he was a great scorer and a pretty complete player. He had some amazing playoff performances, several of them against Larry Bird. I wouldn't necessarily put Kobe above him just yet. We all know that 'Nique never won the big one, but of course he never had Shaq. No single player- Jordan, Kobe, 'Nique, whoever- could have dragged that crappy Hawks team to a title in a conferense that also included the Celtics, Pistons, and Bulls.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

nique was a great player, but kobe's already surpassed him, imo. just plays at a higher overall level. nique may have been comparable as a scorer, (nique was shooting 46% when the league averages were 48%), but paled as an all-around player. not nearly the passer or defender kobe is, although a better rebounder (although not by much, considering their positions). 

nique did have about a 10 year prime though. no contest though if i was picking a player for 1 season (or 3).


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

Bball doctor and IV, I didn't say Jordan didn't become a great player until Scottie got there, I said Jordan's teams never accomplished anything until Scottie got there. Bball Doctor you gave the exact numbers to prove my point that the Bulls were no more than a minor speed bump in other NBA teams way, until Scottie got there. 

Dominique was a great player, I think he finished second in the league in scoring like 5 years in a row, of course all behind Jordan. Because of Jordan Dominique's actual greatness is overshadowed, I mean he wasn't even voted one of the 50 greatest, and it's clear he was, nobody can make the argument, that Reggie Miller and Bill Walton were truly greater players than Nique.


----------



## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

Looking at Jordan's 88-89 season, that has to be his greatest statistical season, he averaged 32.5 points on 54% shooting, and averaged 8 boards and 8 assists a game. This is when Jordan became truly great, making his teammates better. Although the Bulls dropped 3 games in the standings from the previous season, this is clearly the turning point of the dynasty, since Jordan clearly began to trust his teammates more than ever before. When Kobe has a season where he clearly trusts his teammates, that is when we will all know Kobe is on the level of only the true greats, like Mike, Magic, Bird, Oscar and Wilt.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> Bball doctor and IV, I didn't say Jordan didn't become a great player until Scottie got there, I said Jordan's teams never accomplished anything until Scottie got there. Bball Doctor you gave the exact numbers to prove my point that the Bulls were no more than a minor speed bump in other NBA teams way, until Scottie got there.
> 
> Dominique was a great player, I think he finished second in the league in scoring like 5 years in a row, of course all behind Jordan. Because of Jordan Dominique's actual greatness is overshadowed, I mean he wasn't even voted one of the 50 greatest, and it's clear he was, nobody can make the argument, that Reggie Miller and Bill Walton were truly greater players than Nique.


I wasn't criticizing you. Sorry if my post sounded like that. I actually agree with you. I was just giving the numbers for MJ before Pip becuz you were wrong in that MJ never won a playoff game without Pip and MJ only played 3 seasons (actually 2 if you count his injury) with a Bull-less Pip.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

reggie didn't make the list, and walton at his best (although that didn't last very long at all) was far better than nique. the argument against walton is his longevity, not his level. nique's advantage over some other great scorers was his longevity (vs. bernard king for instance, who was a better player, but didn't last long). others at least comparable to nique were dantley and mcadoo who didn't make the list (dantley, whose lifetime fg% is 54% compared to niques career high of 49%, still waits for the hall to call). you could make a reasonable argument for nique, but to me, it's no sure thing.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> Looking at Jordan's 88-89 season, that has to be his greatest statistical season, he averaged 32.5 points on 54% shooting, and averaged 8 boards and 8 assists a game. This is when Jordan became truly great, making his teammates better. Although the Bulls dropped 3 games in the standings from the previous season, this is clearly the turning point of the dynasty, since Jordan clearly began to trust his teammates more than ever before. When Kobe has a season where he clearly trusts his teammates, that is when we will all know Kobe is on the level of only the true greats, like Mike, Magic, Bird, Oscar and Wilt.


Jordan was still far more being the complete player but he had his statstically best all around season. He did not reach that until his first MVP year but you are right this was the turning point. MJ actually played point that year. People were also criticizing that MJ was only a scorer and nothing else and MJ got pisst off. That is why people argued that Magic is the true MVP of the league and not Jordan. I think he had over 10 TD that year to prove them wrong.


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## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> Jordan was still far more being the complete player but he had his statstically best all around season. He did not reach that until his first MVP year but you are right this was the turning point. MJ actually played point that year. People were also criticizing that MJ was only a scorer and nothing else and MJ got pisst off. That is why people argued that Magic is the true MVP of the league and not Jordan. I think he had over 10 TD that year to prove them wrong.


His first MVP season was the 87/88 season.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> Looking at Jordan's 88-89 season, that has to be his greatest statistical season, he averaged 32.5 points on 54% shooting, and averaged 8 boards and 8 assists a game. This is when Jordan became truly great, making his teammates better. Although the Bulls dropped 3 games in the standings from the previous season, this is clearly the turning point of the dynasty, since Jordan clearly began to trust his teammates more than ever before. When Kobe has a season where he clearly trusts his teammates, that is when we will all know Kobe is on the level of only the true greats, like Mike, Magic, Bird, Oscar and Wilt.


not that everything phil says is gospel, but he did say, regarding kobe's play in '01:

"Kobe's become the floor leader on a basketball team that was looking for that player who can not only be a scorer but also be a playmaker, who can consistently make big plays in critical times. So it was very important for Kobe to step into that role he was envisioned at. I've always held the bar up very high for Kobe, and he's not only reached that bar, but he's jumping over the top of it right now. *I think it's the best I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game.* I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it"

i think it's easy to be critical of kobe, but he's asked to do alot on his team, and he keeps them together pretty well.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

Thats my mistake I thought Jordan had 4 seasons on the Bulls before SCottie got there, but I was also counting the two years Jordan had with the Wizards.

Im pretty sure Reggie made the list, does anyone no for sure?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> Jordan was still far more being the complete player but he had his statstically best all around season. He did not reach that until his first MVP year but you are right this was the turning point. MJ actually played point that year. People were also criticizing that MJ was only a scorer and nothing else and MJ got pisst off. That is why people argued that Magic is the true MVP of the league and not Jordan. I think he had over 10 TD that year to prove them wrong.


and magic went on to be mvp in '89 & '90.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> Thats my mistake I thought Jordan had 4 seasons on the Bulls before SCottie got there, but I was also counting the two years Jordan had with the Wizards.
> 
> Im pretty sure Reggie made the list, does anyone no for sure?


i know for sure

50 greatest


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> reggie didn't make the list, and walton at his best (although that didn't last very long at all) was far better than nique. the argument against walton is his longevity, not his level. nique's advantage over some other great scorers was his longevity (vs. bernard king for instance, who was a better player, but didn't last long). others at least comparable to nique were dantley and mcadoo who didn't make the list (dantley, whose lifetime fg% is 54% compared to niques career high of 49%, still waits for the hall to call). you could make a reasonable argument for nique, but to me, it's no sure thing.


I have to disagree and agree with this. Although Walton never played more than 3 full seasons he was not really a better player than Nique and Nique had longevity and he could score with the best of them. However with that said Walton at his prime was more valuable than Nique ever was when healthy. That is why Walton won the MVP despite playing less than 60 games. Also nobody would ever argue that Walton was the greatest college center ever!...his overall contribution (1 MVP, 2nd player in the NBA to lead the league in RPG and BPG in the same season) was good but it was his storied college legacy that drove him to the HOF...not really his injury plagued NBA career...kind of like Tom Gola....the greatest rebounder in college history but not even close in the pros. If you look at Walton's numbers they don't even come close to Nique but if you look at legacy Nique does not come close to Walton.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> and magic went on to be mvp in '89 & '90.


Yup and Magic had great seasons those years. Hell Magic was and is my favorite player of alltime. But there was no question who the better player was at during those times. There was a question before though. What MJ showed the world was that he could equally do what Magic could and still lead the league in scoring. A lot of people criticized MJ's game until he did that.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> not that everything phil says is gospel, but he did say, regarding kobe's play in '01:
> 
> ...


When Phil inherited the Bulls, Pip was already the floor man and MJ the goto. Before Phil, MJ was both and let me say he did a better job than Kobe...this is the truth but Kobe is the most complete player that Phil has ever coached but that is because MJ only played half the role he used to.


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## BigTMacFan (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> :mrt:
> You are the Mr. T boy of this site!
> I'm not saying this is poll makes it a fact that Kobe is MVP of the lakers...... The fact is 56% of the people who voted belief that Kobe is more valueble to LA than any other player. We can't really say definitively that one is or isn't all we can do is listen to other peoples opinions. The poll proves that the people who agree with me, out number those who agree with you. That is a fact.


Classic IV "logic". 56% of a group of aboriginies in Australie believe Barry Sanders is the greates Center to ever play baseball. That poll has no bearing on anything, other than you can find a poll to support yourself that has no relevance.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

walton was league mvp, and lead his team to the title. he was the centerpiece of the franchise. if you polled 100 gm's, 100 would take walton before they took nique. he was the bigger impact player. he won a title in his 3rd season, mvp in his 4th. he likely would have been one of the 20 greatest players ever, possibly top 10. how could he be considered a disappointment when he's winning titles and mvp's? it was his injuries that prevented him from truly leaving his mark. but he was a special player, far more rare than nique.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>tenkev</b>!
> 
> 
> His first MVP season was the 87/88 season.


I know his first MVP was a year before and his next did not come until 90-91. But MJ was pisst that people were saying that Magic is the real MVP and not MJ because all MJ did was hog the ball and score. Magic did everything. The consensus of the basketball world was that Magic was the better player. People did not love MJ like they do today. After 87/88 he got pisst and changed his game to complement his teammates and he became a better team player thus becoming more complete. Before that MJ was an indivdualistic player. Ironically Magic won the MVp in 87/88 and 88/89 but there was no question who the better player was between the two but there was also no question who had the better team. It is like TMac and Kobe to Duncan.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> When Phil inherited the Bulls, Pip was already the floor man and MJ the goto. Before Phil, MJ was both and let me say he did a better job than Kobe...this is the truth but Kobe is the most complete player that Phil has ever coached but that is because MJ only played half the role he used to.


phil took over after jordan's 33/8/8 season (in which jordan wasn't particularly pleased, as evidenced by his role in getting rid of collins). phil moved pippen into his role, he wasn't already there.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> walton was league mvp, and lead his team to the title. he was the centerpiece of the franchise. if you polled 100 gm's, 100 would take walton before they took nique. he was the bigger impact player. he won a title in his 3rd season, mvp in his 4th. he likely would have been one of the 20 greatest players ever, possibly top 10. how could he be considered a disappointment when he's winning titles and mvp's? it was his injuries that prevented him from truly leaving his mark. but he was a special player, far more rare than nique.


I never said that Walton was a dissapointment. Is this to me?...if so did you read my post??? Read the bottom line.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> phil took over after jordan's 33/8/8 season (in which jordan wasn't particularly pleased, as evidenced by his role in getting rid of collins). phil moved pippen into his role, he wasn't already there.


At that time it was obvious that Pip had the ballhandling ability to play floor general. That is why Phil moved him there to elevate pressure from MJ. He had to in order to make the triangle more effective. The triangle needs a post player as the goto guy and a perimeter setup man. Kind of like with the Lakers. Shaq plays MJ role and Kobe plays Pip's role. Phil is a genius and he utilizes the advantage to benefit the team. When MJ was the point in 88-89 he did a better job than what Kobe has done since he became the Lakers floor general.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> Yup and Magic had great seasons those years. Hell Magic was and is my favorite player of alltime. But there was no question who the better player was at during those times. There was a question before though. What MJ showed the world was that he could equally do what Magic could and still lead the league in scoring. A lot of people criticized MJ's game until he did that.


actually, i think there certainly was question. what magic accomplished those years elevated him past where he even was before. he didn't have kareem anymore (in '90) and was still leading his team to 63 wins (in '90). magic had his share of supporters even then. in '89, he averaged 22.5/8/13. and his teams kept winning. it wasn't until '91 that the torch was truly taken.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> I never said that Walton was a dissapointment. Is this to me?...if so did you read my post??? Read the bottom line.


i read into it based on you saying walton wasn't better than nique, and the comparison to tom gola. my bad if that wasn't your point.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> At that time it was obvious that Pip had the ballhandling ability to play floor general. That is why Phil moved him there to elevate pressure from MJ. He had to in order to make the triangle more effective. The triangle needs a post player as the goto guy and a perimeter setup man. Kind of like with the Lakers. Shaq plays MJ role and Kobe plays Pip's role. Phil is a genius and he utilizes the advantage to benefit the team. When MJ was the point in 88-89 he did a better job than what Kobe has done since he became the Lakers floor general.



based on what? higher assist totals? anyway, my point wasn't that kobe was better than jordan at something, just that it's unfair to be critical of him as not a team player. he's played a floor general role on a team that's won 3 straight. that's a pretty good indication he's playing pretty good team ball. his coaches comments support that as well.


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

*kobe better than Jordan?*

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

If you are talking about at the same age, then you might be able to make a case.

Overall though, not even close . . . let me know when Kobe averages 39ppg and is defensive player of the year . . .

Kobe needs more time, then you MIGHT be able to make legit comparisons, because you never know how good he is going to get.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

people, stop with the kobe needs to score 37 ppg. jordan's best seasons were when his scoring was lower. why point to scoring 37 ppg when he was a better player scoring far less points? his highest point total in a title year was 32.6, and in for his 6 titles, his averages were 31.5, 30.1, 32.6, 30.4, 29.6 and 28.7. keep in mind also that the early titles were in a higher scoring era. so, lets not use 37 ppg as a requirement.


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>aznbusyboy</b>!
> People think Jordan is better than Kobe, but let me ask you one short question. Name 3 Shootingguards back in 1900s that can compete with Jorday. these aren't Sgs:
> Larry Bird is a SF
> Magic Johnson is Pg
> John stockon is a Pg


Ok, for Jordan:

No one could compete with him . . . thats a point in his favor right there. But we have these candidates:

Clyde "the glide" Drexler
Reggie Miller
Mitch Richmond



> Now let's name three top Sgs that're competing with Kobe Bryant rite now.


Iverson
Tmac
Pierce

can all outplay him or get outplayed by him in any given game . . . I don't neccesarily agree with this, but you could make a case that Tmac is BETTER than Kobe (but thats for one of the 5 million Tmac Kobe threads so don't get into that here please).


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> people, stop with the kobe needs to score 37 ppg. jordan's best seasons were when his scoring was lower. why point to scoring 37 ppg when he was a better player scoring far less points? his highest point total in a title year was 32.6, and in for his 6 titles, his averages were 31.5, 30.1, 32.6, 30.4, 29.6 and 28.7. keep in mind also that the early titles were in a higher scoring era. so, lets not use 37 ppg as a requirement.


'

I far as I understand it we are comparing two individual players, not the success of their teams (not that team success is irrelevant). The best years for Jordans teams may have been when he was scoring 30-32ppg but the best year for him individually would be when he scored 39ppg. It is also important to note that the Championship years occured when Jordan's supporting cast came into their own (pip, grant, all the other pieces) and in the years he scored like a madman he did not have that supporting cast. 

Jordan put up incredible offensive stats. Scoring 39 ppg is an incredible accomplishment and Kobe has yet to come close to. Nothing wrong with throwing that out there. If Kobe never scores that much in a season, will that alone say he is not as good of a player? No, of course not. But - it is a valid piece of info and you can make some legitimate comparisons with it.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

if a player had 10 seasons like jordan had in '91, i'd regard him as a better player than if he had 10 seasons like jordan had in '87 when he scored 37 ppg (not 39). there's no need to put up the 37 (although i'd agree that it's an impressive feat).


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

*Re: kobe better than Jordan?*



> Originally posted by <b>7thwatch</b>!
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
> 
> If you are talking about at the same age, then you might be able to make a case.
> ...


I don't recall MJ ever scoring 39 ppg in a year. I think 37 ppg is the most he ever had. Regardless, scoring is overrated. Hell, Ricky Davis might average 35 ppg for the Cavs next year. Will he then be comparable to Jordan? How about if Kobe averages 35 ppg but only 1 assist and 1 rebound? Will that make him as good as Jordan? The only reason Kobe gets compared to MJ is because he brings a great all round game to the table and has few, if any, weaknesses. He's a great scorer, passer, and defender and is probably the most complete wing player in the league and that is why he gets the comparisons.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

How many big game winning shots has Kobe made...this is not a knock post, i just don't recall them right now...not the highlight reel winning ones anyway. With Jordan you can always go back to those highlights and it adds to his aura.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> How many big game winning shots has Kobe made...this is not a knock post, i just don't recall them right now...not the highlight reel winning ones anyway. With Jordan you can always go back to those highlights and it adds to his aura.


Playoffs or regular season?


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> i read into it based on you saying walton wasn't better than nique, and the comparison to tom gola. my bad if that wasn't your point.


I was not comparing Walton to Tom Gola but their situation. The situation being that a great college career could sometimes push you into the HOF although you had a very good but not great NBA career. Tom Gola is college greatest rebounder EVER and at 6' 6 I believe but he never once led in the NBA.

Here are Gola's stats....they don't look like HOF numbers but combine that with his college career Gola is a HOFer.

http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=GOLATO01


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> based on what? higher assist totals? anyway, my point wasn't that kobe was better than jordan at something, just that it's unfair to be critical of him as not a team player. he's played a floor general role on a team that's won 3 straight. that's a pretty good indication he's playing pretty good team ball. his coaches comments support that as well.


Anyone that watched the Bulls during that time knew that Pippen had the capability. He was starting to do it in 88-89 but not fulltime until Phil arrived. That is why Phil is a genius because he perfected a system that has earned him 9 rings. I am not negative towards Kobe...hell you have read many of my posts and know I am one of his strongest supporters. Heck I even created a thread 7-8 months ago ranking him as the most skilled player in the NBA. Hell I projected him to be a superstar when most he wasn't even a pro. IMO Jordan ran the floor general role much better than Kobe. It is no knock on Kobe...hell Kobe does a great job being a floor general and co-goto guy but he did not involve his teammates as good as MJ during the year MJ played point.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> actually, i think there certainly was question. what magic accomplished those years elevated him past where he even was before. he didn't have kareem anymore (in '90) and was still leading his team to 63 wins (in '90). magic had his share of supporters even then. in '89, he averaged 22.5/8/13. and his teams kept winning. it wasn't until '91 that the torch was truly taken.


Magic was great during those MVP years. I wanted Magic to win...he is my fav player of alltime. But MJ was improving so greatly that even I a diehard Magic fan had to acknowledge that MJ was a better player. I could not see Magic posting the same numbers he did with MJ's Bulls. The Lakers were so deep they were even a great team when Kareem left (Worthy, Scott, Thompson, Green, Cooper, Divac, deep reallu deep) and to be honest Kareem's game left in 86-87.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> How many big game winning shots has Kobe made...this is not a knock post, i just don't recall them right now...not the highlight reel winning ones anyway. With Jordan you can always go back to those highlights and it adds to his aura.


Actually Kobe is very clutch not just shots but the plays he creates by having the ball in his hand. Although he is not mythical like MJ yet he has actually hit many important shots. Remember Mj also missed a lot of the buzzer beaters..much more than the amount he hit.:grinning:


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## aznbusyboy (Apr 7, 2003)

Who think Jordan is Better than Kobe 
People think Jordan is better than Kobe, but let me ask you one short question. Name 3 Shootingguards back in 1900s that can compete with Jorday. these aren't Sgs:
Larry Bird is a SF
Magic Johnson is Pg
John stockon is a Pg

Now let's name three top Sgs that're competing with Kobe Bryant rite now. 

After all these, who do you think is better?
btw, kobe already has 3 championships rings and he's only 24 1/2.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>aznbusyboy</b>!
> Who think Jordan is Better than Kobe
> People think Jordan is better than Kobe, but let me ask you one short question. Name 3 Shootingguards back in 1900s that can compete with Jorday. these aren't Sgs:
> Larry Bird is a SF
> ...


This is just silly, your trying to make it seem there were no good shooting guards back when Jordan was in his prime, how about Clyde Drexler, Joe Dumars, Ron Harper (who Jordan said was his toughest matchup), Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller. Jordan would guard guys like Bird, Magic and Stockton, so it's not like he didn't match up against the 3 guys you named. Don't forget about Dominique, another dominate scorer Jordan matched up with.


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## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Who think Jordan is Better than Kobe*



> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> 
> This is just silly, your trying to make it seem there were no good shooting guards back when Jordan was in his prime, how about Clyde Drexler, Joe Dumars, Ron Harper (who Jordan said was his toughest matchup), Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller. Jordan would guard guys like Bird, Magic and Stockton, so it's not like he didn't match up against the 3 guys you named. Don't forget about Dominique, another dominate scorer Jordan matched up with.


I agree. People forget just how athletic Clyde the Glide and Dumars and Richmond actually were.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Who think Jordan is Better than Kobe*



> Originally posted by <b>tenkev</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree. People forget just how athletic Clyde the Glide and Dumars and Richmond actually were.


Clyde was athletic but Dumars was quicker than he was athletic. Maybe a Bruce Bowen type. Richmond was never an exceptional athlete or anything. He was kind of like Jimmy Jackson or Nick Anderson but doesn't hold a candle to Vince or TMac.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

I wasn't trying to say all those people could guard Jordan, I was just pointing out that there were plenty of good shooting guards during Jordan's prime. While Vince Carter is incredibily athletic he couldn't guard a chair, a prime Jordan would score 40 on Vince every time out.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Who think Jordan is Better than Kobe*



> Originally posted by <b>tenkev</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree. People forget just how athletic Clyde the Glide and Dumars and Richmond actually were.


Clyde was amazingly athletic. Miller is a future HOFer and I think it was Richmond not Harper who MJ said was the hardest SG for him to guard. But people also forget how good Ron Harper was early in his career. He was a 20 ppg scorer. Also to the poster that wrote that MJ guarded the opposing team's best player besides for the 4 and 5 is :yes: :yes: :yes: . Becuz MJ often was assigned to do just that and other teams often put their best defenders against MJ. Heck that 63 point game in Boston, the Celts threw everybody against MJ. As for Pinball that Dumars comment was on the dot but his greatest strength on defense was his tenacity. The guy never finished top 5 in steals and yet he is considered as one of the greatest guard defenders of alltime. But I must disagree with that Jimmy Jackson comment. Jackson was extremely athletically gifted until his injury. He was gonna be a star...he averaged 26 ppg before getting injured and he never returned as the same player. He was a gym freak but if you were comparing to a Jimmy Jackson now than forget the things I mentioned.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Who think Jordan is Better than Kobe*



> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> Jackson was extremely athletically gifted until his injury. He was gonna be a star...he averaged 26 ppg before getting injured and he never returned as the same player. He was a gym freak but if you were comparing to a Jimmy Jackson now than forget the things I mentioned.


Yeah Jackson was a great athlete before he messed up his knees. Maybe Nick Anderson in Orlando was a better comparison. Big body, great post moves, nice shooting touch.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Sorry to jump in late on this thread, but Kobe's game is more complete at a younger age than MJ's.

He'd have decimated the defenses of the 80's the way MJ did..._and more._


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

A common point made about Kobe being better at this age is that he's more of an intelligent player. I agree on that, but, the one thing that really gets on my nerves, is when Kobe forces up shots against double teams. Sometimes he'll just throw some bull**** up there and hope it goes in. Also, the guy gets more calls than anybody else in the league, and when the ref calls a foul on him, he gives this arrogant look like "what are you talking about"?

That's the real difference to me, is that Kobe just comes off as unlikeable to the general public. Kobe has more haters than fans, and he probably always will.


As far as clutch goes, MJ probably hit tons more buzzer beaters in his first 7 years than Kobe has.


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> A common point made about Kobe being better at this age is that he's more of an intelligent player. I agree on that, but, the one thing that really gets on my nerves, is when Kobe forces up shots against double teams. Sometimes he'll just throw some bull**** up there and hope it goes in.


Then how is that being an intelligent player? In what other aspect are you speaking then?

Stuart


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> As far as clutch goes, MJ probably hit tons more buzzer beaters in his first 7 years than Kobe has.


I didn't get to see all of his early games but I remember MJ talking about how he's missed so many GW shots in his career. I don't remember him missing too many when he was winning rings so I'm guessing quite a few came when he was younger.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Classic IV "logic". 56% of a group of aboriginies in Australie believe Barry Sanders is the greates Center to ever play baseball. That poll has no bearing on anything, other than you can find a poll to support yourself that has no relevance.


The only polls that count in your "logic" are the one's who favor your opinion.

So lets start one here.

New thread time.


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## Yinka Dare (Feb 10, 2005)

wow.......wasted 10 minutes of my life


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

you bumped a thread from may of 2003 to say that???


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

21 months since these posts... but it seemed recent.

May 2005 in three months... I feel old.


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## BBALLSCIENCES (Oct 16, 2004)

This thread is ether to a lot of Kobe haters. Damn!


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

[email protected] this thread


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## X-JAY (Dec 24, 2004)

LOL, comparing MJ to Kobe....

Now all of u who thought that Kobe will be like Mike without Shaq, where are you now? 30 fg%... Thats.... POOR!!!!!
Kobe is great, really. There are high chances that he's the best player in the leauge (though I think it's Duncan). But cmon, Jordan....

Kobe has peaked at 24 in term of athleticm.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

long (but fun) read.


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## Kunlun (Jun 22, 2003)

I would say that Jordan is definately better than Kobe. And so is Magic and Larry.


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## Blazerfan024 (Aug 15, 2003)

Ill take Jordan any day!


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## MiamiWade (Jan 23, 2005)

LMAO at the topic of this thread. Kobe is nowhere near Jordan and wait here is the best part:: 

He will never be.!!!


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## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

MiamiWade said:


> LMAO at the topic of this thread. Kobe is nowhere near Jordan and wait here is the best part::
> 
> He will never be.!!!



This isnt even a debate. Kobe isn't even liked by fans or the members of the league anyway. Hell of a player, but come on.


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## Yinka Dare (Feb 10, 2005)

Cris said:


> you bumped a thread from may of 2003 to say that???


I didnt bump this thread for some apparent reason it was on the first page


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## TRACIELOVESCOMETS (May 14, 2003)

Jordan is better hands down


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

Tough Call

This is a hell of a choice to make

Could you maybe give me 3 minutes to make my decision?......


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

.....Jordan


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## Raxel (Nov 10, 2004)

I don't understand, kobe isn't even the best player of current time, and his fans already compare him with the best player of all time.

Has kobe ever won a MVP of regular season? NO
Has kobe ever won a MVP of finals? NO
Has kobe ever won a scoring champion? NO
Has he ever lead his team to a Champion? NO (Shaq was the MVP in those finals!!!)

:no: :no: :no:


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

Raxel said:


> I don't understand, kobe isn't even the best player of current time, and his fans already compare him with the best player of all time.
> 
> Has kobe ever won a MVP of regular season? NO
> Has kobe ever won a MVP of finals? NO
> ...


AND Kobe has never even been the best player on his team untill this year


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

aznbusyboy said:


> People think Jordan is better than Kobe, but let me ask you one short question. Name 3 Shootingguards back in 1900s that can compete with Jorday.



i dont know if someone already said this but i dont know any basketball players from the early 1900's. Maybe late 1900's but not in the early 1900's


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

O2K said:


> i dont know if someone already said this but i dont know any basketball players from the early 1900's. Maybe late 1900's but not in the early 1900's


I know this is a free spech message board but have you considered the bandwidth or whatever of this message board when you post something which doesnt help here?

of course we know it was a typo and you now taking up space with this post. Have we thought of if it werent any meaningless posts, we wouldnt have to move to a bigger website?


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

I know this is old thread..

But its true that Kobe has more in his arsenal than Jordan at the age of 24.

BUT, MJ dunked on anyone on his way to the ring when he was in his early 20s, he didnt lay it in softly, he terrorized the paint with his atheletism and penetrated with no conscience. He scored 37 points a game without his consistent jumpshot that he developed early 90s. What does that say about his game?

Kobe also has the advantage of learning off MJ, MJ continued to improve his game even though his stats dropped off slightly, he made up for it by making his team better. Everyone knows Pippen wouldnt be as good as he is if he didnt play with MJ, Pippen learnt from MJ, and as Pippen became a tremendous defender, MJ learnt off him as well.

KObe is the better shooter from outside the arc, skills wise they are about even, but Jordan as a 24 year old was quicker and jumped higher. 

Not gonna dwell on team impacts, as we all know Jordan has 6 rings as the helm of Bulls... Kobe has 3 rings playing "behind" Shaq, even though Kobe arguably took more shots, but Kobe definitely benefited from Shaq taking more focus from the defense.

The competition back then isnt as slouch as some think, they are not as atheletic as todays, apart from quickness and speed, guards back in the days cant jump as high or as physically gifted as todays. Talent wise, skill wise, and Basketball-smarts wise (both offensive and defensive), guards back then would have an advantage.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

1 Penny said:


> I know this is old thread..
> 
> *But its true that Kobe has more in his arsenal than Jordan at the age of 24.*
> 
> ...


24? Kobe was 24 when this thread was created, he happens to be 26 now. Just had to point that out

Plus it isnt fair to compare players by what they acheived at a certain age considering Kobe came into the league at 18 years old and Jordan came in at 20. So Kobe has had a 2 year advantage over Jordan

You should compare them by how many years they have been in the league. This is Kobe's 9th year in the NBA. In Jordan 9th year he won his 3rd ring and had a couple of MVP Awards at the time, won the MVP of the Finals all those 3 years and was a multi time Scoring champ for sure

Not to mention Jordan had less to work with when he came into the league. He was drafted by the Bulls who at the time were a CRAPPY team while Kobe was traded to the Lakers who signed Shaq a month later and had pretty decent players on that team and they were a playoff team every year

Jordan put up better stats than Kobe about 99% of the time in both of their first 9 years in the league, but Jordan never had any decent talent around him untill Pippen came along who could put up 15 ppg and was an awesome defender to compliment Jordan, then they started getting better year after year

I'm sure Jordan would have loved to have a dominant Shaq in his early years. Imagine those 2 guys together


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## Spoolie Gee (Feb 3, 2005)

Kobe's best season = 30.0 ppg

Jordan's career average = 30.1 ppg


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

_They both suck_


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## X-JAY (Dec 24, 2004)

It's not just talent that makes players what they are. It's talent+work ethic. You can't have be a great player without having both, especially work ethic. For example, look at Tim Thomas. Extremly talented player. Garnett, Kobe, Mcgrady- all of them aren't more talented then he is. One of the best first steps in the NBA, if not the best (Wade is the only one I can think of near that level), one of the best shooting skills in the NBA, one of the best athletes. Awsome ballhandling skills and quickness. Great body frame. combine all that in a 6-10 wide body and u got Tim Thomas. IMO, could have been one of the greatest F's in NBA HISTORY. Unfourtently, he has absolutly no work ethic. Kobe and Michael both have very good work ethic and desire, so I don't think anybody can say they have "untapped potential". If so, Mike is indeed ther better AND more talented player. Kobe is a better long range shooter. Jordan is a better mid-range shooter. Jordan is better at beating his man off the dribble, but both are unstopable. However, Jordan is a better finisher. Jordan is probobly more athletic and quicker a little bit. Ball handling is similar. Kobe is stronger, especially this year because he became a gym rat. Still, Jordan has a better post-up game. Rebounding is similar, but Jordan is a better passer and much better at making his teamates better. Both are excellent defenders. Kobe has already peaked and he's an injury prone. Overall, I think there is really no argument.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

X-JAY said:


> Kobe is stronger, especially this year because he became a gym rat.


 :no:

Sorry to nitpick, but I couldn't let this one go...no way Kobe is stronger than Jordan.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

X-JAY said:


> It's not just talent that makes players what they are. It's talent+work ethic. You can't have be a great player without having both, especially work ethic. For example, look at Tim Thomas. Extremly talented player. Garnett, Kobe, Mcgrady- all of them aren't more talented then he is. One of the best first steps in the NBA, if not the best (Wade is the only one I can think of near that level), one of the best shooting skills in the NBA, one of the best athletes. Awsome ballhandling skills and quickness. Great body frame. combine all that in a 6-10 wide body and u got Tim Thomas. IMO, could have been one of the greatest F's in NBA HISTORY. Unfourtently, he has absolutly no work ethic. Kobe and Michael both have very good work ethic and desire, so I don't think anybody can say they have "untapped potential". If so, Mike is indeed ther better AND more talented player. Kobe is a better long range shooter. Jordan is a better mid-range shooter. Jordan is better at beating his man off the dribble, but both are unstopable. However, Jordan is a better finisher. Jordan is probobly more athletic and quicker a little bit. Ball handling is similar. Kobe is stronger, especially this year because he became a gym rat. Still, Jordan has a better post-up game. Rebounding is similar, but Jordan is a better passer and much better at making his teamates better. Both are excellent defenders. Kobe has already peaked and he's an injury prone. Overall, I think there is really no argument.



I stopped reading when you said Tim Thomas was more talented than Kobe, TMac and Garnett. :laugh:


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

John said:


> I know this is a free spech message board but have you considered the bandwidth or whatever of this message board when you post something which doesnt help here?
> 
> of course we know it was a typo and you now taking up space with this post. Have we thought of if it werent any meaningless posts, we wouldnt have to move to a bigger website?



my appoligies great one


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## X-JAY (Dec 24, 2004)

The Truth said:


> :no:
> 
> Sorry to nitpick, but I couldn't let this one go...no way Kobe is stronger than Jordan.


Not in Kobe's first years, but now Kobe is stronger than Jordan ever was. Ask any Lakers fan how much he have worked on his strength, especially this summer. He gained a lot of mass and muscles and now his weight is much higher than Jordan's weight at any age.


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## X-JAY (Dec 24, 2004)

madskillz1_99 said:


> I stopped reading when you said Tim Thomas was more talented than Kobe, TMac and Garnett. :laugh:


I didn't expected any other reply from someone who write skills with a Zed. I bet you don't know Woods, Kemp, etc so I can't explain you about the importance of work ethic.

Have you considered going to Golf? Because basketball doesn't fit you.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

X-JAY said:


> Not in Kobe's first years, but now Kobe is stronger than Jordan ever was. Ask any Lakers fan how much he have worked on his strength, especially this summer. He gained a lot of mass and muscles and now his weight is much higher than Jordan's weight at any age.


I don't have to ask a Laker fan how much he worked on his strength...I know that he has. 

But he still isn't stronger than Jordan was.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

I refuse to wade through 17 pages of this crap, when the answer is clear and obvious.

Everybody thinks that Jordan is better than Kobe.

Because anybody who says differently, clearly isn't THINKing.


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## Kay-Jay (Feb 21, 2005)

definitely jordan there is no good argument that kobes better


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## MiamiWade (Jan 23, 2005)

Kobe is not even the top 3 player in the league right now.


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

MiamiWade said:


> Kobe is not even the top 3 player in the league right now.


Kobe, Shaq, Duncan. 

Yeah he is man. :yes:


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

First of all there should never be an arguement on who's better than MJ since *noone* is.

Second, Kobe will never reach the level that MJ was, and I'll also go ahead and say that noone will. They'll only come *close* to it. 

:twocents:


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## Excel (Aug 5, 2002)

Jordan is the G.O.A.T.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

aznbusyboy said:


> People think Jordan is better than Kobe, but let me ask you one short question. Name 3 Shootingguards back in 1900s that can compete with Jorday. these aren't Sgs:
> Larry Bird is a SF
> Magic Johnson is Pg
> John stockon is a Pg
> ...


Jordan's best defenders:

Joe Dumars SG 6'4" 4 defensive first teams Hall of Famer
Dennis Johnson G 6'4" 6 defensive first teams Hall of Famer

Kobe's best defenders:

Bruce Bowen
Doug Christie

Both were in the league in 1996-98 when MJ was winning MVPs. Neither was effectual at all really. And now, at older ages they are defensive sages? And Dumars and Johnson could make you work on offense....what can stiff Bowen do?

Then there's the championships lol. Jordan DID win some if I recall. Yes he didn't come into the league as a rookie with the best center in the game on his team like Kobe, but eventually he won. And he LED his team to rings. Wake me up when Kobe leads a swingman 3 years his junior and 10 role players to a title. 

Through their common ages in the league 21-26 MJ leads Kobe in those ages in all 7 of the major stats....

At 26 MJ had an MVP and a DPOY, Kobe has neither.

Don't confuse "being the better individual player" with "playing WITH better playerS"...


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

LOL at the ten people who voted "they both suck"


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

IV said:


> That's simple. because he is the best on his own team.
> 
> I find it truly amazing that Kobe plays along side the most dominate??? but still managed to become the youngest player to score 10,000.


LOL have anything to do with him coming into the league 4 years younger than MJ was when came into the league....or Bird, or Magic....or Kareem....Kobe was 3-4 years younger than ALL of them were when they came into the league.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

BEEZ said:


> This comaprison is more or less a moot point right now. Kobe is not in Jordans Class yet. Give Kobe time and possibly he may surpass Jordan as arguably the best player ever. Right now you cannot even compare the 2. Was Jordan in his prime better YES. Remeber Kobe is not even in his prime yet. Give this debate a little more time. But to even say Kobe is better than Jordan ever was right now is ridiculous.


Jordan had already entered his prime at age 26, having arguably his best season as an individual player in 1988 when he won the DPOY AND MVP.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Kobe = Scrub

Jordan = Scrub

Scrub + Scrub = Lee Nailon


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

IV said:


> I'll go as far as to say that Jordan in his prime was not much better than Kobe now. At least not statistically. They both give you 30+, 5-7 boards, 5-6 assists. Both all NBA on both sides of the ball, first team! Both allstars, Both champions, and but with that killer, clutch instinct!


Let's have a look at their common years in the league...ages 21-26

Kobe Bryant 1999-2005 397 Games 39.4 Minutes Per Game
26.3 PPG 6.05 RPG 5.41 APG 1.71 SPG 0.68 BPG 45.38 FG% 83.58 FT%
0 MVPs
0 Defensive Player of the Year Awards
0 Rookie of the Year Awards
0 Gold Medals
0 NBA Finals MVP Awards
3 Championship Rings as Second Best player on team

Michael Jordan 1984-1999 427 Games 38.9 Minutes Per Game
32.8 PPG 6.30 RPG 6.00 APG 2.78 SPG 1.08 BPG 51.59% FG 84.81%
1 MVP
1 Defensive Player of the Year Award
1 Rookie of the Year Award
0 NBA Finals MVP Awards
0 Championship Rings as the Best player on his team

Things to note
1985-86 was the only season in that span that MJ missed more than one game in.
MJ leads in all 7 stats, both offensive and defensive stats. Stats that would be helped by a center like Shaq, and stats that would be hurt by a center like Shaq. 
This season, without Shaq, Kobe has been slightly better than the six year averages in 5 categories, slightly worse in one, and far worse in another one. 
This season, his first without Shaq, Kobe is averaging the worst FG% he has averaged in 9 NBA seasons, and the second worst FT% he has averaged in nine seasons. 
Kobe Bryant has played more than 71 games 3 times in 9 seasons (33%), Michael Jordan played more than 78 games 12 times in 16 seasons (75%). During the common ages of Kobe and MJ in the league Kobe Bryant played more than 66 games only 2 times in 6 seasons (33%), whereas Michael Jordan played 81 games or more 5 times in 6 seasons (83%).

Kobe on the average night gives you the following percentages of stats that MJ gave you:

PPG - 80%
RPG - 96%
APG - 90% 
SPG - 61%
BPG - 62%
FG% - 87%
FT% - 98%
When you add these percentages up and then average it out you come up with the mathematical fact that during what has so far been their common years in the league:

Kobe Bryant is 82% of the statistical player Michael Jordan was with less MVPs and less DPOYs and less individual accollades across the board. He's got 3 rings, but now you're getting into something that's the product of 12 players and a coaching staff, and not of the individual.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

Kmasonbx said:


> At the same age I would have to say Kobe is better. It's amazing at 24 Kobe has 3 rings, been all-nba first team 3 times, all defense 1st team twice, and has already been an MVP candidate. He will only get better, watch his career take off after he leaves LA, because then all the Kobe haters won't have the "He has Shaq excuse"


Jordan accepted his first MVP award at age 24.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

X-JAY said:


> Not in Kobe's first years, but now Kobe is stronger than Jordan ever was. Ask any Lakers fan how much he have worked on his strength, especially this summer. He gained a lot of mass and muscles and now his weight is much higher than Jordan's weight at any age.


Yes lol, because that's the right way to get a logical response about Kobe and MJ....by asking a Laker fan LOL.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

DaUnbreakableKinG said:


> Kobe, Shaq, Duncan.
> 
> Yeah he is man. :yes:


Aren't you leaving out players with MOST VALUABLE PLAYER AWARDS there? Garnett has an MVP, in 9 seasons Kobe's highest finish is 3rd. And yet he's a top 3 player? Why? Cause of your opinion?


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## Ps!ence_Fiction (Aug 1, 2004)

X-JAY said:


> It's not just talent that makes players what they are. It's talent+work ethic. You can't have be a great player without having both, especially work ethic. For example, look at Tim Thomas. Extremly talented player. Garnett, Kobe, Mcgrady- all of them aren't more talented then he is. One of the best first steps in the NBA, if not the best (Wade is the only one I can think of near that level), one of the best shooting skills in the NBA, one of the best athletes. Awsome ballhandling skills and quickness. Great body frame. combine all that in a 6-10 wide body and u got Tim Thomas. IMO, could have been one of the greatest F's in NBA HISTORY. Unfourtently, he has absolutly no work ethic. Kobe and Michael both have very good work ethic and desire, so I don't think anybody can say they have "untapped potential". If so, Mike is indeed ther better AND more talented player. Kobe is a better long range shooter. Jordan is a better mid-range shooter. Jordan is better at beating his man off the dribble, but both are unstopable. However, Jordan is a better finisher. Jordan is probobly more athletic and quicker a little bit. Ball handling is similar. Kobe is stronger, especially this year because he became a gym rat. Still, Jordan has a better post-up game. Rebounding is similar, but Jordan is a better passer and much better at making his teamates better. Both are excellent defenders. Kobe has already peaked and he's an injury prone. Overall, I think there is really no argument.


So he's more talented than Kobe, KG and T-Mac, has the best first step in the NBA and is one of the best shooters in the NBA? Are you sure you're talking about Tim Thomas and not someone like umm.... Michael Jordan?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

The Gipper said:


> Let's have a look at their common years in the league...ages 21-26
> 
> Kobe Bryant 1999-2005 397 Games 39.4 Minutes Per Game
> 26.3 PPG 6.05 RPG 5.41 APG 1.71 SPG 0.68 BPG 45.38 FG% 83.58 FT%
> ...


it's all partly a product of 12 players and a coaching staff. jordan's stats were a product of 12 players and a coaching staff. jordan's stats tended to be worse the better his team was.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

kflo said:


> jordan's stats tended to be worse the better his team was.


However slightly worse they were, they were still better than Kobe's in his best season.


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## Spoolie Gee (Feb 3, 2005)

kflo said:


> it's all partly a product of 12 players and a coaching staff. jordan's stats were a product of 12 players and a coaching staff. jordan's stats tended to be worse the better his team was.




But look at his playoff stats and in particular his stats in the NBA finals. I think thats where you see the true maturity of Jordan's game.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

i'm not going to debate who was better. i think jordan has a clear advantage. i'm just saying that the stats aren't the end all when comparing players in completely different circumstances. don't talk about stat differences, and then dismiss the fact that one was on a team with another dominant scorer, and a team that won 3 titles.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

kflo said:


> i'm not going to debate who was better. i think jordan has a clear advantage. i'm just saying that the stats aren't the end all when comparing players in completely different circumstances. don't talk about stat differences, and then dismiss the fact that one was on a team with another dominant scorer, and a team that won 3 titles.


Well now Kobe is on a team without another dominant scorer...are his stats much different than before?

Also, Kobe's 3 titles mean next to nothing in this debate...If Jordan had played with a player as dominant as Shaq (relative to the rest of the league), I would be confident in saying he would have won a championship much earlier.

You do realize that Jordan averaged 37 points per game and shot 50% from the floor when he was Kobe's age, right? And at that point in his career, he would have had comparable team support to what Kobe has now.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

The Truth said:


> Well now Kobe is on a team without another dominant scorer...are his stats much different than before?
> 
> Also, Kobe's 3 titles mean next to nothing in this debate...If Jordan had played with a player as dominant as Shaq (relative to the rest of the league), I would be confident in saying he would have won a championship much earlier.
> 
> You do realize that Jordan averaged 37 points per game and shot 50% from the floor when he was Kobe's age, right? And at that point in his career, he would have had comparable team support to what Kobe has now.


Back in a time when teams didn't play zone defense. So really, do you think that Jordan would have averaged 37 pts on 50% shooting if the entire team were to collapse on him when he would penetrate?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

The Truth said:


> Well now Kobe is on a team without another dominant scorer...are his stats much different than before?
> 
> Also, Kobe's 3 titles mean next to nothing in this debate...If Jordan had played with a player as dominant as Shaq (relative to the rest of the league), I would be confident in saying he would have won a championship much earlier.


right - and his stats likely would have been lower as well.



The Truth said:


> You do realize that Jordan averaged 37 points per game and shot 50% from the floor when he was Kobe's age, right? And at that point in his career, he would have had comparable team support to what Kobe has now.


when jordan scored 37 ppg, his ppfga was 1.12, compared to a league average of 1.11. kobe's is 1.09, the league average is 1.06. and you're saying he had a comparable team (i'm not saying they're comparable), yet led his team to only 40 wins - how much better could he have been? btw, jordan was 24 when he averaged 37.

this is kobe's first year in a new situation. his stats are pretty solid.

again, i'm not saying he's as good as jordan. he's not.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Drewbs said:


> Back in a time when teams didn't play zone defense. So really, do you think that Jordan would have averaged 37 pts on 50% shooting if the entire team were to collapse on him when he would penetrate?


Is there evidence that the zone has caused any particular players (all-star calibre) to be effected more then other? I haven't seen any. On the other hand guys like Lebron are putting up 25+ with a team with no shooters. Don't see why a prime Jordan couldn't average those numbers now


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

Drewbs said:


> Back in a time when teams didn't play zone defense. So really, do you think that Jordan would have averaged 37 pts on 50% shooting if the entire team were to collapse on him when he would penetrate?


Yeah, but there also weren't rules like defensive 3 seconds when Jordan played either.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

kflo said:


> right - and his stats likely would have been lower as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The whole argument about a player averaging more/less when playing for a bad/good team is a little ridiculous.

Lets use Kobe as the example.

Kobe with Shaq, Karl, and Gary:
Kobe may not get as many shots as he would without these 3 players (though he did manage to shoot a lot), but he also isn't the complete focus of the opposing defense. Teams are unable to double or triple team Kobe as much as they would if the Lakers didn't have those 3 players because they have to honor those 3 players defensively.

Kobe without Shaq, Karl, and Gary:
Yes, Kobe gets more shots, but he now becomes the focus of the opposing team. Teams can double and triple team Kobe more to force the ball out of his hands or force him into bad shots.

As a result, it usually works out close to a statistical wash. And I think you can see that this year with Kobe.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

What is it that makes Kobe supporters so delusional as to even propose such a comparison? A 40 year old MJ had more of an impact on a pathetic Wizards team (that's right kids, its about winning, not fancy plays) than Kobe is having on this year's Lakers. Kobe can't carry MJs jock. Shaq won those titles in LA. Kobe was Pippen.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

kflo said:


> it's all partly a product of 12 players and a coaching staff. jordan's stats were a product of 12 players and a coaching staff. jordan's stats tended to be worse the better his team was.


Worse and yet still better than Kobe's. Also.....Kobe's stats have not taken the quantum leap that Kobe fans thought they would without Shaq. Kobe's team got worse this season and his stats have not shot up.

Jordan was still shooting 49.5% in 1996....How old was he the first time he failed to average 30 PPG? 35? Kobe has averaged 30 PPG on the DOT once. And he's at 27 PPG this season with a second option who isn't close to as good as Pippen and may not even be as good as Horace Grant.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

X-JAY said:


> I didn't expected any other reply from someone who write skills with a Zed. I bet you don't know Woods, Kemp, etc so I can't explain you about the importance of work ethic.
> 
> Have you considered going to Golf? Because basketball doesn't fit you.


Nah, i've never heard of those guys, only you have.  

And I love Golf. :biggrin: 

And yeah, work ethic is important, but to say that Tim Thomas has more talent than KG, Kobe and TMac is just stupid.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

kflo said:


> i'm not going to debate who was better. i think jordan has a clear advantage. i'm just saying that the stats aren't the end all when comparing players in completely different circumstances. don't talk about stat differences, and then dismiss the fact that one was on a team with another dominant scorer, and a team that won 3 titles.


1. I was quoting a poster who said you could expect even stats from the two. He made that assertion. I was showing HIM that he was clearly wrong. My post was not in a vacuum. It was a response to someone who made a dilusional comment.

2. I countered your plea of non-dismissal by showing that WITHOUT SHAQ and NOT PLAYING ON A 3 title team (this season) Kobe has shown mild improvement in 5 stats (I think even if you take Kobe this season v. MJ over those six years Kobe is still only better than MJ in ONE of those 5 stats by .6 PG), slight falloff in FT% and dramatic falloff in FG%.

Why come at me with "Well he had Shaq and was playing for titles" when this season without Shaq he's shooting the worst FG% of his 9 year career (something Kobe fans always swore would go UP without Shaq) and the second worst FT% of his 9 year career. Hell he's averaging 27.8 PPG this season. While that is better than the 26.3 PPG he's posted over the last six years, last time I checked, it was still 5 PPG lower than MJ over the same SIX YEAR SPAN. And MJ averaged 32.5 PPG in 1989 with PIPPEN AND GRANT on his team. Kobe has Lamar Odom (less All Star appearances than Pippen, Grant AND BJ Armstrong) and uh, uh, uh, not a whole lot of other competition for his stats.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

The Truth said:


> Well now Kobe is on a team without another dominant scorer...are his stats much different than before?
> 
> Also, Kobe's 3 titles mean next to nothing in this debate...If Jordan had played with a player as dominant as Shaq (relative to the rest of the league), I would be confident in saying he would have won a championship much earlier.
> 
> You do realize that Jordan averaged 37 points per game and shot 50% from the floor when he was Kobe's age, right? And at that point in his career, he would have had comparable team support to what Kobe has now.


Jordan at 25 with Pippen and Grant (both better than Odom) scored 35 PPG on 53.5% FGs (Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon both shot a lower percentage that season)

Kobe at 26 with Lamar Odom is averaging 27.8 PPG on a very Jalen Roseesque 40.8% FG (wow 12.7% lower -- it must be because they played in different eras....you know with Rookie Ben Gordon shooting 43.4% this season and all LOL....btw you know that argument is coming next. The famed Kobe fan "Different era argument")


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> What is it that makes Kobe supporters so delusional as to even propose such a comparison? A 40 year old MJ had more of an impact on a pathetic Wizards team (that's right kids, its about winning, not fancy plays) than Kobe is having on this year's Lakers. Kobe can't carry MJs jock. Shaq won those titles in LA. Kobe was Pippen.


Ahhh yes, by winning on a pathetic Wizards team, you mean, fail to make the playoffs while not posting a winning record one season where he was part of the team?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Drewbs said:


> Ahhh yes, by winning on a pathetic Wizards team, you mean, fail to make the playoffs while not posting a winning record one season where he was part of the team?



Yes, he took that 20 win team and had them around .500. That's more of an impact than Kobe on this years Laker team.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

And I would like some response, if anyone can come up w/ one, on what makes the Kobe supporters so delusional. Thanks, in advance.


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

Just for the record, I accidentally voted No just now. So take one of those and add it to the Yes column.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

Drewbs said:


> Back in a time when teams didn't play zone defense. So really, do you think that Jordan would have averaged 37 pts on 50% shooting if the entire team were to collapse on him when he would penetrate?


LOL first of all the entire team DID collapse on him when he penetrated. I've seen few people do few things easier in my life than watching MJ split two defenders on a BEHIND THE BACK dribble, jump from 3 feet in front of the free throw line and dunk on two more. 

Maybe you haven't heard of the Jordan rules. Detroit had two all NBA defenders (neither of which was named Laimbeer or Isiah...who they also had) and their game plan was triple and even quadruple team Jordan and hit him every time he went up for a dunk. They regularly delivered the kinds of hits to him that would be a flagrant penalty 2 these days and accompany an immediate ejection. He'd get 45 points and lose to a Detroit team by a couple in a game where Scottie Pippen would make 7 bad plays out of frustration due to Rodman hounding him. This against a Detroit team that would hold Kobe to 25 points, force him into two technicals out of frustration and beat the current Lakers by about 40. I've seen Kobe get 10 turnovers against single coverage from Ron Artest back in 2000! 

Also with expansion who are these "collapsing defenders"? A lot of guys like Ronald Dupree who wouldn't sniff the NBA if the league had 24 teams. LOL at having to attack a Jamal Crawford/Moochie Norris double down zone LOL. 

BTW Jordan shot 44% in 2003 at age 40. That would be more than Bryant, in a time with zone defense, 14 years older, and on the Wizards.

Lebron James is 19 and shoots 49.1% FG on 25.8 PPG. Yeah it's not 30, but it's 2 PPG less than Kobe averages on 8.3% higher FG at 7 years younger than Bryant, in a ZONE defense era.

If Dwayne Wade can shoot 47.8% on 23 PPG, then Jordan could still go for 37 PPG on 50% FG if you replaced Kobe with a 24 year old MJ right now. 

Ben Gordon = 43%
Luol Deng = 43%

Reggie Miller, a jumpshooter who turned 81 years old recently is shooting 44%.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

kflo said:


> right - and his stats likely would have been lower as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you think there may be a diminishing effect if you continue to shoot more score more points? I can go into an intramural game and shoot 50% if I carefully select 4 FGA per game.....however my FG% and ppfga would decrease sharply if I was asked to score 37 every game.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> *What is it that makes Kobe supporters so delusional as to even propose such a comparison?* A 40 year old MJ had more of an impact on a pathetic Wizards team (that's right kids, its about winning, not fancy plays) than Kobe is having on this year's Lakers. Kobe can't carry MJs jock. Shaq won those titles in LA. Kobe was Pippen.


I would like to know the same thing


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

Drewbs said:


> Ahhh yes, by winning on a pathetic Wizards team, you mean, fail to make the playoffs while not posting a winning record one season where he was part of the team?


When Kobe could do something similar at even age 35 call me up.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

> Ahhh yes, by winning on a pathetic Wizards team, you mean, fail to make the playoffs while not posting a winning record one season where he was part of the team?


You do realize that MJ was hurt right? He was playing some amazing basketball before he was hurt. Ron Artest a great defensive player was banging with MJ 39-40 year old MJ mind you. In the summer before his return to the NBA for the Wizards.And MJ got hurt. Still was able to come back and play in the NBA. Oh yeah when Ron Artest was asked about MJ's come back. He said that MJ was playing so good in the off season. Ron Artest also said MJ would of averaged close to 40 a night in the present league at that time if he he never suffered that injury.

Do I personally think that Ron Artest may have exaggerated a little bit ? Probably but for Ron Artest to give MJ those kind of props by the way MJ was playing at such a high level before his injury. Also Ron Artest is a no BS guy. He wouldnt of said it if it wasnt the case.

So that just makes me think when a defensive caliber player such as Ron Artest says MJ would be able to play at that level pre injury in this era at the age of 39-40. Than you would have to believe a MJ in his prime would destroy most NBA cats in this era.

Oh yeah MJ hands down over Kobe Bryant. Kobe isnt even at MJ level.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

Here is a little interesting stat I just figured out. Through 9 years in the NBA, Kobe Bryant has 13,215 Career Points

You know how many Career Points Jordan had through 9 seasons? 21,541

Just a little interesting tidbit

Also, don't even talk Laker fans untill Kobe has scored 37 ppg for a season, has put up 32, 8, and 8 for a season, has won 5 MVP Awards, has won 6 Finals MVP Awards, 10-Time ALL NBA 1st Team, Defensive Player of the Year, 9-Time ALL NBA Defensive Team, Averages 30 ppg for his entire Career, 10-Time Scoring Champion, 7 Consecutive years leading the league in scoring, 3-Time Steals Leader, Averaged 41 PPG in an NBA Finals series, Averages 33 ppg in his Playoff Career, puts up 69 Points in a single game....yadda yadda yadda


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> And I would like some response, if anyone can come up w/ one, on what makes the Kobe supporters so delusional. Thanks, in advance.


It's the Laker fandom as an evolving phenomenon. They had West, Baylor, Wilt, Kareem and Magic. They fought Jordan's greatness throughout his entire career because god forbid someone, anyone have anything better than anything the Lakers had. 

In 1991 when Jordan with 1 hall of famer defeated Magic with 1 hall of famer....Magic was "old" (I think he was either 30 or 32 that year) and Laker fans still like to pretend that even though Scott and Worthy missed the final game only, when everyone knew it was over, that both were out the whole series. There the resentment began. Reaction of La La land ranged from denial that it existed, to Laker fans arguing that being champion in the 90s was like being in the doghouse in the 80s. That would be the 80s, in the midst of which Chuck Daly made the comment that MJ was "embarassing the league." Laker fans even used Bird and Detroit to argue that MJ only was able to win when those players declined, because, get this, MJ couldn't lead 11 scrubs past teams with 5 hall of famers who were playing at their peak. 

Then in 1997 Laker fans had a player who imitated the "Style" of Jordan. Now this was their huge opportunity. A chance to show the world that "look, eventually the Lakers will always have something better than what you have, even Jordan." The arguments as to why Kobe was "Just like Mike, ONLY BETTER!" began to mount. It was their chance to do the Jordan thing, but with a little extra cherry on top. As early as 2000 you saw players like Danny Ainge, who ironically went down to Jordan in two NBA Finals, saying things like "Well at age 20 you clearly have to say Kobe is better." The warnings of "it's not being like Mike at one moment, you must withstand the test of time. Kobe will not be better at 22, 24, 26 and 28 because MJ was a gold standard that rose and rose and rose"... began to ring down. They were countered with arrogance like "Kobe at 22 = 3 rings, MJ at 22 = 0 rings".... Now if that statement doesn't SCREAM "We pine to be just like Jordan fans, only show them that even having Jordan, they will never have anything better than the best of what the Lakers have for very long" I don't know what does. 

Since then as Jordan's career SHOT up like a rocket from 87 (37 PPG), 88 (MVP, DPOY), 89 (32.5 PPG, 8 RPG, 8 APG -- averaged a triple double in his 60 starts at PG that season)....Kobe's has not only given his fans no ammo, he's gone the opposite direction. Getting worse last year and this year. 

Most Kobe fans have reacted by acting like YOU are the one obsessing when you bring it up, when they know that they were the same guy who was jumping all over it in 2000-02 when they had ammo. Every Kobe fan seemed to want to have the argument in 2002, but ironically now...90% of them react like "it wasn't me, it was all the OTHER Kobe fans who said that." But give them ammo...give them a good 9 game stretch or a winning streak, and slowly but surely fans who steadfastly deny making the comparisons peer out and begin to lower their white flag and slide their uzi out of their backpack. And then just as soon as Kobe regresses...they're gone, back to the world of "I never said that. I never bring it up, why do you keep bringing it up? Obsess much."

But even now, there is still that 10%. They think Kobe can and will be better, and like KFLO they will argue in Kobe's favor, always carefully sufficing their argument with "but that said, MJ is better" and yet always waiting for Kobe to turn it back on, so that their argument will stay the same, but drop the suffix, and pick up more velocity. 

If you hate Kobe and his super over-zealous fans...and you want a fat laugh, go to realgm and look up topics from last year. Reading Lakerfan17 and vincent666 will be a REAL treat lol. They still were arguing that Kobe was like MJ only better....as recently as LAST YEAR....lol.

That is the evolution of the Kobe fan-desperately hoping Kobe can be MJ only better phenomenon.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

Nique21 said:


> I would like to know the same thing


Granted lol


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## Spoolie Gee (Feb 3, 2005)

The only way to compare players from different areas is by how dominate they were/are.

Jordan was the most dominate player of his area.

Kobe isn't.

End of discussion. (I wish)


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

23AirJordan said:


> You do realize that MJ was hurt right? He was playing some amazing basketball before he was hurt. Ron Artest a great defensive player was banging with MJ 39-40 year old MJ mind you. In the summer before his return to the NBA for the Wizards.And MJ got hurt. Still was able to come back and play in the NBA. Oh yeah when Ron Artest was asked about MJ's come back. He said that MJ was playing so good in the off season. Ron Artest also said MJ would of averaged close to 40 a night in the present league at that time if he he never suffered that injury.
> 
> Do I personally think that Ron Artest may have exaggerated a little bit ? Probably but for Ron Artest to give MJ those kind of props by the way MJ was playing at such a high level before his injury. Also Ron Artest is a no BS guy. He wouldnt of said it if it wasnt the case.
> 
> ...


Ahhh Ron Artest. Remember the game where Shaq was ejected for swinging at Brad Miller and the Bulls quickly turned the tide for one of their 17 wins that season with Shaq in the locker room? Then Kobe was like "we'll see in LA."

The next game in LA Kobe had to play the 17 win (they won that many all season) Bulls without Shaq.... The Bulls won and Kobe had 10 turnovers against a VERY young Ron Artest who was still far from his first ALL NBA Defense selection.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

The Gipper said:


> It's the Laker fandom as an evolving phenomenon. They had West, Baylor, Wilt, Kareem and Magic. They fought Jordan's greatness throughout his entire career because god forbid someone, anyone have anything better than anything the Lakers had.
> 
> In 1991 when Jordan with 1 hall of famer defeated Magic with 1 hall of famer....Magic was "old" (I think he was either 30 or 32 that year) and Laker fans still like to pretend that even though Scott and Worthy missed the final game only, when everyone knew it was over, that both were out the whole series. There the resentment began. Reaction of La La land ranged from denial that it existed, to Laker fans arguing that being champion in the 90s was like being in the doghouse in the 80s. That would be the 80s, in the midst of which Chuck Daly made the comment that MJ was "embarassing the league." Laker fans even used Bird and Detroit to argue that MJ only was able to win when those players declined, because, get this, MJ couldn't lead 11 scrubs past teams with 5 hall of famers who were playing at their peak.
> 
> ...



Wow!!! Thanks, Gip. Great analysis, and much more than I could have hoped for. Appreciate the time and energy.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

The Gipper said:


> It's the Laker fandom as an evolving phenomenon. They had West, Baylor, Wilt, Kareem and Magic. They fought Jordan's greatness throughout his entire career because god forbid someone, anyone have anything better than anything the Lakers had.
> 
> In 1991 when Jordan with 1 hall of famer defeated Magic with 1 hall of famer....Magic was "old" (I think he was either 30 or 32 that year) and Laker fans still like to pretend that even though Scott and Worthy missed the final game only, when everyone knew it was over, that both were out the whole series. There the resentment began. Reaction of La La land ranged from denial that it existed, to Laker fans arguing that being champion in the 90s was like being in the doghouse in the 80s. That would be the 80s, in the midst of which Chuck Daly made the comment that MJ was "embarassing the league." Laker fans even used Bird and Detroit to argue that MJ only was able to win when those players declined, because, get this, MJ couldn't lead 11 scrubs past teams with 5 hall of famers who were playing at their peak.
> 
> ...



Great Post

And for the Bold part, I find that quote pretty amusing. Michael Jordan at 20 Years Old (His Rookie Year), averaged 28 PPG, 6 RPG and 6 APG and shot 51%

Kobe at the age of 20 averaged 19 PPG, 5 RPG and 3 APG and shot 46%

And they both averaged 38 Minutes Per Game at 20 Years Old

So how in the blue hell did Danny Ainge figure that Kobe was better than Jordan at 20? How Laughable


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

Nique21 said:


> Great Post
> 
> And for the Bold part, I find that quote pretty amusing. Michael Jordan at 20 Years Old (His Rookie Year), averaged 28 PPG, 6 RPG and 6 APG and shot 51%
> 
> ...


Actuallly.....MJ was 21 for opening night of his rookie year and turned 22 that February. That said.....to make a comment with the rationale of "MJ was still in college at that age" is stupid. I mean....who the hell wasn't in college at 21 back then? Bill Willoughby and Moses Malone? Guys who knew they couldn't STAY ELIGIBLE in college? Exactly. It just wasn't something you did. One thing Kobe and Lebron and all these guys never get is that College dussy is fun fun fun and there isn't as much of a groupie feel or an "im only talking to you cause you're a big baller and I am going to try trick you into getting me pregnant" feel in college. College is fun...those guys missed out IMO....the money will be waiting there and even if you get injured, the amount of people who would gladly pay the insurance policy on the body of an 18 year old like Lebron if he had wanted to play college ball....would have gone a mile back. It's called Lloyd's of London.

Now...could people like Ainge sit back and listen to someone saying "Well why don't we see how they compare at age 22, 24 and 26." No, because Ainge of course was an idiot who lost to MJ twice and cried the whole time he was losing. Bias much Danny?


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Wow... I can't believe some of you got conned into a 20 page thread about MJ Vs Kobe... Jesus...


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

S-Star said:


> Wow... I can't believe some of you got conned into a 20 page thread about MJ Vs Kobe... Jesus...


They are fun. Killing weak arguments is always a good time


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Good post, Gipper.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

The Gipper said:


> But even now, there is still that 10%. They think Kobe can and will be better, and like KFLO they will argue in Kobe's favor, always carefully sufficing their argument with "but that said, MJ is better" and yet always waiting for Kobe to turn it back on, so that their argument will stay the same, but drop the suffix, and pick up more velocity.


you got to be kidding me. i understand nobody likes to have their comments actually put into context, or have the hyperbole taken out of their argument. the anti-kobe doesn't have to resort to "kobe never scored 37 ppg" crap or how many times did he lead the league in scoring crap. as much as jordan valued his scoring titles and made it a goal of his every year, he was still more about just dominating the game. quoting stats from his years as a single star on decent teams and comparing them to kobe's career (or 1/2 season) isn't that relevant. his overall dominance is. 

for some reason, people take it as a personal insult to even suggest that someone approaches the greatness of jordan. we have a poll here that's as lopsided as polls get, yet we still have jordan fans indignant about the mere notion. 

get over yourself, my friend.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

The Gipper said:


> BTW Jordan shot 44% in 2003 at age 40. That would be more than Bryant, in a time with zone defense, 14 years older, and on the Wizards.


jordan's ppfga was .94 and .98 with the wizards, towards the bottom of the league.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

The Gipper said:


> Do you think there may be a diminishing effect if you continue to shoot more score more points? I can go into an intramural game and shoot 50% if I carefully select 4 FGA per game.....however my FG% and ppfga would decrease sharply if I was asked to score 37 every game.


the point is, in case you missed it, is don't just compare raw numbers out of context, and if you're going to use numbers, use more relevant measures. you can say jordan shot 50% and kobe 41% or whatever, but without context of how that stacked up to other players in the game and contributed to victory, it's meaningless. you can come back with reasons why they stack up as they do, but at least we have the debate about the right things.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

kflo said:


> you got to be kidding me. i understand nobody likes to have their comments actually put into context, or have the hyperbole taken out of their argument. the anti-kobe doesn't have to resort to "kobe never scored 37 ppg" crap or how many times did he lead the league in scoring crap. as much as jordan valued his scoring titles and made it a goal of his every year, he was still more about just dominating the game. quoting stats from his years as a single star on decent teams and comparing them to kobe's career (or 1/2 season) isn't that relevant. his overall dominance is.
> 
> for some reason, people take it as a personal insult to even suggest that someone approaches the greatness of jordan. we have a poll here that's as lopsided as polls get, yet we still have jordan fans indignant about the mere notion.
> 
> get over yourself, my friend.


Actually it's funny you would go that route. When someone suggests that about Lebron....I don't react adversely. I say "time will tell, but the kid's got a shot." But then....he isn't making comments like the one's Kobe made in a halftime interview during the 2000 Finals about how he hoped he could be just Jordan but better...and his fans don't quite have that same "nobody could be better than our teams best ever SG" that Laker fans have....


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

kflo said:


> jordan's ppfga was .94 and .98 with the wizards, towards the bottom of the league.


LOL and regardless of that, he still shot that percentage, which is what we were talking about. Any detrimental fact can be cured by..."What do you expect, he was 40." See when you're 40, you can be bad at something and...you're 40 lol. You're supposed to be old. In NBA terms you're a friggin great grandfather. But if you're actually good at something....like shooting a high percentage in the "zone" era, then the reaction should be "if he can do that at 40, it's not the zone, it's Kobe."

It's kinda funny though that you only respond to certain things I said. Why not take all of my posts and respond. Are you simply responding to the only 10% that you have a ground to stand against? If so, which is apparent, that's telling.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

kflo said:


> the point is, in case you missed it, is don't just compare raw numbers out of context, and if you're going to use numbers, use more relevant measures. you can say jordan shot 50% and kobe 41% or whatever, but without context of how that stacked up to other players in the game and contributed to victory, it's meaningless. you can come back with reasons why they stack up as they do, but at least we have the debate about the right things.


Well Jordan shot 53.8% in a year that Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon both shot 52% or lower. Wanna give me two ELITE big men that Kobe is shooting 1.8% better than? And remember..these two were elite OFFENSIVE threats....so (and I haven't looked), you better not bust out Ben Wallace or someone like that...


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

The Gipper said:


> LOL and regardless of that, he still shot that percentage, which is what we were talking about. Any detrimental fact can be cured by..."What do you expect, he was 40." See when you're 40, you can be bad at something and...you're 40 lol. You're supposed to be old. In NBA terms you're a friggin great grandfather. But if you're actually good at something....like shooting a high percentage in the "zone" era, then the reaction should be "if he can do that at 40, it's not the zone, it's Kobe."
> 
> It's kinda funny though that you only respond to certain things I said. Why not take all of my posts and respond. Are you simply responding to the only 10% that you have a ground to stand against? If so, which is apparent, that's telling.


I dont hate Jordan and Jordan has nothing for me to complain about. His effectiveness wasnt the same as mid 90s.

But KLFO is one of those fall into my "I dont see him on my eyesight anymore" like Minstrel, Beez and others. But let me know who you like now, I will go at you basketball wise so your next post will only be "LOL" because you just won be able to compete with me.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

I find it rather comical that kflo is still trying to argue that Kobe is better or that Kobe is even on Jordan's level


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

Nique21 said:


> I find it rather comical that kflo is still trying to argue that Kobe is better or that Kobe is even on Jordan's level


Yeah I know....the responses are like

"i admit jordan's better but let me just add

*Pro Kobe argument
Anti Jordan argument
Pro Kobe argument
Anti Jordan argument*

Get over yourself"

LOL


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

This is getting a bit absurd. kflo is simply pointing out that, while it's obvious that Jordan was better, it's not ridiculous to *compare* Kobe Bryant to him and find places where he's not all that far off Jordan.

Jordan was clearly the best perimeter player to play the game and arguably the best player ever (it's not unreasonable to argue for Chamberlain), but that doesn't mean he's light years better than everyone else.

James looks like he might be a comparable talent. Bryant and McGrady are all-round players who are a step down from Jordan but not in some other league from Jordan. Iverson is one of the most natively talented players ever to play the game but wasn't gifted with Jordan's height, so he'll never approach Jordan's effectiveness in a big man's game.

Jordan's ahead of everyone (pending James' career) but it's by degrees, not by huge steps. I think a great deal of the ridiculous gulf people put between Jordan and Bryant is the dislike they have for Bryant's attitude and hype, which has nothing to do with his game.

Bryant isn't Jordan and never will be Jordan, but he's not so far off as to justify the mockery of those who compare the two with the admission that Jordan is the better player.

The defenders of Jordan's reputation need to take a day off. Nobody's assailing Jordan's reputation. He's probably the most revered sports icon outside of Babe Ruth and Muhammed Ali. He's the standard *for* comparison and it's no insult when people do exactly that. And it's also no insult when a player approaches Jordan in certain aspects of the game.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> This is getting a bit absurd. kflo is simply pointing out that, while it's obvious that Jordan was better, it's not ridiculous to *compare* Kobe Bryant to him and find places where he's not all that far off Jordan.
> 
> Jordan was clearly the best perimeter player to play the game and arguably the best player ever (it's not unreasonable to argue for Chamberlain), but that doesn't mean he's light years better than everyone else.
> 
> ...



Look at Jordan's resume and look at Kobe's, then try and tell me how close or far apart they are. Jordan has acheived SO much more, it's almost insane

Think about this...

Jordan played a combined 13 total years with the Chicago Bulls, 2 of those years he only played about 17 games in the entire season. He spent 2 years with the Wizards as an old man. That's just 15 combined years in the league that he accomplished everything he has. Kobe is already in his 9th year and isnt close to accomplishing half of the things Jordan has. Jordan didnt really accomplish anything in Washington, so lets throw those 2 years out the door for a second. Kobe is just 4 years away from his 13th year in the league, and 13 years in the league is how many Jordan had with the Bulls. So in 4 years, do you honestly think Kobe will surpass Jordan and his accomplishments? Not a chance

Even though Kobe will probably play alot longer than Jordan ever did, there is a chance when he retires that he is somewhat close to Jordan, but surely not ahead of him. But then you have to think that it only took Jordan 13 years to accomplish everything he did with the Bulls, while it took Kobe alot longer to accomplish half of what Jordan did


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Nique21 said:


> Jordan played a combined 13 total years with the Chicago Bulls, 2 of those years he only played about 17 games in the entire season. He spent 2 years with the Wizards as an old man. That's just 15 combined years in the league that he accomplished everything he has. Kobe is already in his 9th year and isnt close to accomplishing half of the things Jordan has. Jordan didnt really accomplish anything in Washington, so lets throw those 2 years out the door for a second. Kobe is just 4 years away from his 13th year in the league, and 13 years in the league is how many Jordan had with the Bulls. So in 4 years, do you honestly think Kobe will surpass Jordan and his accomplishments? Not a chance


If we're throwing away seasons, then I think it's fair to throw out Kobe's first four seasons since he was fresh out of high school. That would mean he has played five prime seasons, and has well over half his prime career left.

Anyways, Minstrel summed it up. It's not absurd to compare the best perimeter players of today to Jordan, it's not a complete landslide.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Nique21 said:


> So in 4 years, do you honestly think Kobe will surpass Jordan and his accomplishments? Not a chance


Due to your intense hatred of Kobe Bryant you continually argue a position nobody is advocating. Find any place in my post where I argue that Bryant is Jordan's equal. I said several times that Jordan is clearly superior. So we can cut through your reams of reasons why Jordan is actually better.

The point is that that Bryant is a phenomenally talented player who does a few things near Jordan's level. Not everything, a few things. And even in those, Jordan is better.

But the agenda that Bryant-haters and Jordan-devotees are pushing, that Bryant can't compare to Jordan in any facet, is absurd. He can compare and come close on a few things. That's why Bryant will be in the next tier of perimeter players all-time, when all is said and done. Because he can come close to Jordan here and there but can't match him overall.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

whoops voted for kobe, i wanted to vote for MJ was better.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> If we're throwing away seasons, then I think it's fair to throw out Kobe's first four seasons since he was fresh out of high school. That would mean he has played five prime seasons, and has well over half his prime career left.
> 
> Anyways, Minstrel summed it up. It's not absurd to compare the best perimeter players of today to Jordan, it's not a complete landslide.


When you lead in all 7 stats in the common PRIME YEARS have 0 MVPS to MJ's 1 and have 0 DPOYs to MJ's one...then what the freak is it? You think Lebron, 9 years into his career will have 0 MPVs and be led by Jordan in all 7 stats during their common years? No. So he will be close if not overtake MJ. Kobe is losing in a landslide. Hell....did someone say TMac? Did someone even UTTER his name? All he is is Kobe with far less defense and instead of having 50% of MJ's tear your heart out killer instinct....he has 0. 

Lebron is a player you can say "ok even though MJ is better, it isn't a knock out" or I believe you will say that one day. Jerry West is another player at the same position. Magic, Bird....since we're talking perimeter guys. Big O. Not Kobe Bryant. 

And the fact is...even though you can discount Kobe's first 3-4 seasons for statistical comparison.....they have taken a toll on his body. He's in his 9th year. He's played 9 years of NBA basketball....so you have to think about what Nique said. Reality is he doesn't have as many years left as he would if he started in the NBA at 22. NBA seasons wear on you.


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## The Gipper (Dec 27, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Due to your intense hatred of Kobe Bryant you continually argue a position nobody is advocating. Find any place in my post where I argue that Bryant is Jordan's equal. I said several times that Jordan is clearly superior. So we can cut through your reams of reasons why Jordan is actually better.


I can agree that Nique21 summarized your argument incorrectly, BUT in reference to KFLO....he and others don't argue as if Kobe is say 80% of the player MJ. KFLO argues as if he's saying Kobe is better. Everything you bring up, Kobe is better is the slant of his argument, and then he ends his response with a small disclaimer. He argues as if it's 2002 again, and then at the end is like "but MJ's better." His conclusion and the way he argues it conflict. Do you see?



> The point is that that Bryant is a phenomenally talented player who does a few things near Jordan's level. Not everything, a few things. And even in those, Jordan is better.


I find it funny....but Scottie Pippen actually did more things better/on par than Jordan. Scottie had a funny career statistically because he didn't have the rest MJ had from 30-32, so that bogged down his career averages, and he was extremely raw coming out of college. He was 23-24 before he hit his prime. But in those few prime years Pippen passed better than MJ, defended better, rebounded better. He's probably a closer comparison than Bryant. Hell he led Horace Grant and a whole lot of nothing to 55 wins and a 7 game loss to the eventual Eastern Finalist Knicks, in what was then the predominant conference in the NBA. And as much as I love Scottie, if someone compared him to MJ I'd be like "what"?? 

Yes some players may have some things that MJ had or do some things even better, but nobody did/does more things better than MJ did. Wilt was a stat wizard, but when it came to playing winning basketball he clearly underachieved winning only 2 rings with I think 7 hall of famers and losing two NBA Final game 7s in which LA was heavily favored. Russell won more, but he had how many HOF teammates, and was much more of a specialist than Jordan. Unlike MJ, Russell was much better on one side of the ball (defense) than he was on the other (offense). Magic easily compares more favorably than Kobe, but Jordan was at least on par (though in different ways) offensively, far better defensively, and beat Magic head to head. When I see a player who you can't say "yeah sure he did this like MJ, but he was sorely lacking here" then I'll say "he's on par or better than MJ." Right now...Lebron looks like he could be that guy. And that's hard for me to say. But if he actually DOES it and then people wanna say it...it won't be hard. 

Lebron strikes me as like...if you took Magic, and then made him as good as Jordan was in all the areas where MJ had an advantage over Magic. 

Kobe strikes me like Mark Rattner from Fast Times... or simply ... "Rat" lol. 

But the agenda that Bryant-haters and Jordan-devotees are pushing, that Bryant can't compare to Jordan in any facet, is absurd. He can compare and come close on a few things. That's why Bryant will be in the next tier of perimeter players all-time, when all is said and done. Because he can come close to Jordan here and there but can't match him overall.[/QUOTE]


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

The Gipper said:


> When you lead in all 7 stats in the common PRIME YEARS have 0 MVPS to MJ's 1 and have 0 DPOYs to MJ's one...then what the freak is it?
> ...
> Kobe is losing in a landslide.


No, it just means Jordan is better overall. Which nobody is really disputing. That doesn't mean Bryant doesn't approach Jordan in any category.



> Hell....did someone say TMac? Did someone even UTTER his name?


Not just "someone," me.



> All he is is Kobe with far less defense and instead of having 50% of MJ's tear your heart out killer instinct....he has 0.


No, not really. The major difference is that Bryant is more aggressive at attacking the hoop and McGrady is the superior shooter. Both have competitive fire.

McGrady's defense has been quite strong this season, returning to its form from his Toronto days when he drew comparisons to Scottie Pippen as a defender. He's clearly nowhere near Pip as a defender, but now that he doesn't have to carry his entire team's offense, as he did in Orlando, he's able to put more of his energy into the defensive end.

That's really the big difference between a prime Jordan and Bryant/McGrady...Bryant and McGrady don't have the ability to carry an offense *and* play excellent defense all game long, game in and game out. Jordan could. Bryant and McGrady are very Jordan-like on offense when they devote all their energy to it and they're very good defenders when they're focusing on that. Neither can sustain both for a whole game.



> Lebron is a player you can say "ok even though MJ is better, it isn't a knock out" or I believe you will say that one day.


James is a player who may very well _surpass_ Jordan when all is said and done. I'm not saying James definitely _will_ be better. He _might_ be.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

The Gipper said:


> I can agree that Nique21 summarized your argument incorrectly, BUT in reference to KFLO....he and others don't argue as if Kobe is say 80% of the player MJ. KFLO argues as if he's saying Kobe is better. Everything you bring up, Kobe is better is the slant of his argument, and then he ends his response with a small disclaimer. He argues as if it's 2002 again, and then at the end is like "but MJ's better." His conclusion and the way he argues it conflict. Do you see?


I can't speak for kflo, but my impression is that he's trying to counter how lopsided you suggest the comparison is. Let us use your numbers and suppose Bryant is 80% the player Jordan was. Your tone suggests that Bryant is 50% the player Jordan was and it's only Kobe-bias to argue more than that. So what kflo is providing is the _best argument_ that can be made for Bryant, with the prior admission that Bryant isn't on par with Jordan. You interpret that as a backdoor attempt to place Bryant on a level with Jordan. Having seen kflo post for years, I don't believe that's his intent. I think his intent is just to provide Bryant's best argument to push this comparison closer to that 80% area.



> I find it funny....but Scottie Pippen actually did more things better/on par than Jordan.


I think Pippen, Bryant, Drexler, McGrady all occupy a similar level of talent. Grant Hill probably had that level of talent also, but lost a lot of prime years to injury.



> Yes some players may have some things that MJ had or do some things even better, but nobody did/does more things better than MJ did. Wilt was a stat wizard, but when it came to playing winning basketball he clearly underachieved winning only 2 rings with I think 7 hall of famers and losing two NBA Final game 7s in which LA was heavily favored.


Most of the years in which Chamberlain didn't win, he was facing Celtic teams that heavily outgunned his teams, player for player. Chamberlain was dominant in the playoffs and in the Finals, his teammates simply weren't sufficient, regardless of how many Hall of Famers were on the team (because the other team was also loaded with Hall of Famers). Had Chamberlain failed to perform in those crucial games, that would be an indictment, but he produced to his ability in every game during his prime.

I think Jordan is the best player ever, but I think Chamberlain has an argument. Oscar Robertson is another marvelous player who comes the closest to matching Jordan's all-around brilliance (and the closest stylistic comparison for LeBron James, in my opinion).


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

It looks like 'no' is gaining steam. It's only 186 votes behind. 

The sad thing is you make this same poll with LeBron in place of Kobe and it would be a lot closer. Despite the fact Kobe has won 3 titles and LeBron has won diddly.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

The Gipper said:


> When you lead in all 7 stats in the common PRIME YEARS have 0 MVPS to MJ's 1 and have 0 DPOYs to MJ's one...then what the freak is it? You think Lebron, 9 years into his career will have 0 MPVs and be led by Jordan in all 7 stats during their common years? No. So he will be close if not overtake MJ. Kobe is losing in a landslide. Hell....did someone say TMac? Did someone even UTTER his name? All he is is Kobe with far less defense and instead of having 50% of MJ's tear your heart out killer instinct....he has 0.
> 
> Lebron is a player you can say "ok even though MJ is better, it isn't a knock out" or I believe you will say that one day. Jerry West is another player at the same position. Magic, Bird....since we're talking perimeter guys. Big O. Not Kobe Bryant.
> 
> And the fact is...even though you can discount Kobe's first 3-4 seasons for statistical comparison.....they have taken a toll on his body. He's in his 9th year. He's played 9 years of NBA basketball....so you have to think about what Nique said. Reality is he doesn't have as many years left as he would if he started in the NBA at 22. NBA seasons wear on you.


Down go the Kobe Lovers!!!! Down go the Kobe Lovers!!!!


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

this is hilarious. 

nowhere have i said kobe is on par or better than jordan. nowhere did i suggest it. if i present stats that don't cream all over jordan, it means i'm advocating kobe is better? again, it seems, any evidence that supports this not being a completely one sided debate is seen as kobe-loving. it's like you guys can't take or comprehend something that goes contrary to the point you're trying to make. every point i've made was just to counter something that didn't make much sense. don't agree? prove me wrong.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

The Gipper said:


> BUT in reference to KFLO....he and others don't argue as if Kobe is say 80% of the player MJ. KFLO argues as if he's saying Kobe is better. Everything you bring up, Kobe is better is the slant of his argument, and then he ends his response with a small disclaimer. He argues as if it's 2002 again, and then at the end is like "but MJ's better." His conclusion and the way he argues it conflict. Do you see?


no, kobe is better isn't the slant of my argument. my argument is to put claims into more appropriate context. i understand some don't like being taken to task for presenting slanted info. i take out the slant. i've done it 100 times in favor of jordan. 

you're latching on to a thread that's years old and coming in like it's a fresh debate. it's stale, but you don't want it to be. you're trying to pile onto a dead carcass, because it's easy and you can feel victorious. get over it. i'm not one of your h.s. buddies who gave you shi* because the lakers were winning titles and the bulls were losing 80 games a year and jordan was an old man. take this up with them.

those who don't like it when their arguments are put in proper context should start by putting their own arguments together better.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

kflo said:


> no, kobe is better isn't the slant of my argument. my argument is to put claims into more appropriate context. i understand some don't like being taken to task for presenting slanted info. i take out the slant. i've done it 100 times in favor of jordan.
> 
> you're latching on to a thread that's years old and coming in like it's a fresh debate. it's stale, but you don't want it to be. you're trying to pile onto a dead carcass, because it's easy and you can feel victorious. get over it. i'm not one of your h.s. buddies who gave you shi* because the lakers were winning titles and the bulls were losing 80 games a year and jordan was an old man. take this up with them.
> 
> those who don't like it when their arguments are put in proper context should start by putting their own arguments together better.


I actually can break down Kobe's game. If we ignore the fact that Kobe has to use this and that to win games at earlier stage, I can come in to put a fullstop to the guy. The poster is just some casual fan man, KLFO. All I need is a YES from you then I will do the rest for you man.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

The Gipper said:


> LOL and regardless of that, he still shot that percentage, which is what we were talking about. Any detrimental fact can be cured by..."What do you expect, he was 40." See when you're 40, you can be bad at something and...you're 40 lol. You're supposed to be old. In NBA terms you're a friggin great grandfather. But if you're actually good at something....like shooting a high percentage in the "zone" era, then the reaction should be "if he can do that at 40, it's not the zone, it's Kobe."


then don't present info that suggests an advantage where none exists. shooting a high % is not the ultimate goal. scoring the most points per possession is, and ppfga, not fg%, captures that. now, the argument changes to, well, he was 40. lol. 



The Gipper said:


> It's kinda funny though that you only respond to certain things I said. Why not take all of my posts and respond. Are you simply responding to the only 10% that you have a ground to stand against? If so, which is apparent, that's telling.


why? because i'm not arguing against your primary point. pretty simple. this is your problem. you can't even comprehend what you're arguing against. nowhere do i argue kobe is better than jordan, but you want to know why i'm not disputing things that support jordan being better than kobe. and that's telling? congratulations genius. you've cracked the code.


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## Jester (Feb 7, 2005)

Jordan has the advantage of an entire career over Kobe. Enjoy Kobe's game for what it is now, and then let's put his career into perspective when it's all said and done. Neither side can be 100% correct at this point.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

John said:


> I actually can break down Kobe's game. If we ignore the fact that Kobe has to use this and that to win games at earlier stage, I can come in to put a fullstop to the guy. The poster is just some casual fan man, KLFO. All I need is a YES from you then I will do the rest for you man.


c'mon john, i'm always interested in your breakdowns myself.


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## MiamiWade (Jan 23, 2005)

UNPARALLED ACCOMPLISHMENTS
Michael Jordan's Honors

NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team (1996)
Member of six NBA championship teams (1991-93, 1996-98)

Five-time NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991-92, 1996, 1998)

Six-time NBA Finals Most Valuable Player (1991-93, 1996-98)

Ten-time All-NBA First Team (1987-93, 1996-98) 

All-NBA Second team (1985)

Nine-time NBA All-Defensive First Team (1987-93, 1996-98)

NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)

NBA Rookie of the Year (1985) 

NBA All-Rookie Team (1985)

Two-time IBM Award winner, for all-around contribution to team's success (1985, 1989)

Three-time NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)

Participated in 11 NBA All-Star Games (1985, 1987-1993, 1996-98), starting 10 times, and missed another due to injury

Holds the NBA All-Star Game career record for highest scoring average (21.3 ppg)

Recorded only triple-double in All-Star Game history, with 14 points, 11 rebounds and 11 assists, in the 1997 NBA All-Star Game in Cleveland

Won the Nestle Crunch Slam Dunk in 1987 and 1988, also participating in 1985

Passed Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to become the NBA's all-time leading playoff scorer (5,762 points) during the 1998 Eastern Conference Finals

Passed Dennis Johnson into fourth place on the NBA's all-time playoff assists list (1,006), in an 88-83 victory over the Indiana Pacers in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals in 1997-98

Scored his 29,000th career point, posting a game-high 41 points, 6 rebounds and 4 assists, in a 107-93 win over the Minnesota Timberwolves on 4/3

Broke Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's NBA record by scoring in double-digits for the 788th consecutive game, scoring a game-high 33 points, against the Minnesota Timberwolves on 12/30/97

Scored a career-high 69 points in a 117-113 overtime win at Cleveland on 3/28/90

Chicago Bulls all-time leader in scoring (29,277 points), assists (5,012) and steals (2,306)

Holds the NBA record for most seasons leading league in scoring -- 10; highest points per game average (minimum 400 games or 10,000 points) -- 31.5; most seasons leading league in field goals made -- 10; and most seasons leading league in field goals attempted -- 10

Shares the NBA career record for most seasons with 2,000 or more points -- 11; and most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring --7 (1986-87 through 1992-93)

Holds single-game records for most free throws made in one half -- 20 (December 30, 1992, at Miami); and most free-throws attempted in one half -- 23 (December 30, 1992, at Miami)

Shares single-game records for most free throws made in one quarter -- 14 (December 30, 1992, at Miami); and most free-throws attempted in one quarter -- 16 (December 30, 1992, at Miami)

Holds the NBA Finals record for highest single-series scoring average -- 41.0 ppg (1993)

Holds NBA Finals record for most three-point field goals made -- 42; and most consecutive games with 20 or more points -- 35 (June 2, 1991-June 14, 1998)

Holds the NBA Finals single-game record for most points in one half -- 35 (June 3, 1992 vs. Portland)

Shares NBA Finals single-game records for most field goals made in one half -- 14; and most three-point field goals made in one half -- 6 (June 3, 1992, vs. Portland); most free throws made in one quarter -- 9 (June 11, 1997 vs. Utah); and most free throws attempted in one half -- 15 (June 4, 1997, vs. Utah)

Holds the NBA Playoffs record for most points -- 5,987; highest points-per-game average (minimum 25 games or 625 points) -- 33.4 ppg; most field goals attempted -- 4,497; most free throws made -- 1,463; most free throws attempted -- 1,766; and most steals -- 376

Scored a career playoff-high 63 points against the Boston Celtics on 4/20/86, setting an NBA record for most points in a playoff game

Holds single-game playoff records for most free throws made in one quarter -- 13; and most free throws attempted in one quarter -- 14 (May 21, 1991, vs. Detroit)

Shares single-game playoff records for most field goals made -- 24 (May 1, 1998, vs. Cleveland); most field goals attempted in one half -- 25 (May 1, 1988, vs. Cleveland); and most three-point field goals made in one half -- 6 (June 6, 1992, vs. Portland)

Recorded two playoff career triple-doubles, both against the New York Knicks (May 9, 1989 and June 2, 1993)

Notched 28th career triple-doubles, the last being a 30 point, 11 rebound and 10 assist effort against the Toronto Raptors on 4/14/97

Member of the gold-medal-winning U.S. Olympic team (1984, 1992)

As a freshman at the University of North Carolina, hit the game-winning shot in the 1982 NCAA Championship game

Named College Player of the Year by The Sporting News in both 1983 and 1984 and won the Naismith and Wooden Awards in 1984

________________________________________________________________

Open this topic again if ever Kobe can achieve even half of MJ's resume. Till then Kobe is another wannabe.


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## Jester (Feb 7, 2005)

Aww, I have a copy of MJ's resume I compiled myself after some research that is at least twice that in content. I think I'll save it for another opportune time. :wink:

BTW, that list looks to be out of date. 11 All-Star Game appearances?


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Okay, let's start.

1) Explosiveness
Jordan all the way, he is lighter, quicker and is a better leaper espeically when they are both 26 years old. Kobe is declining in his athletic ability as he could finish better in drives a few years back as opposed to what he is now.

BUT, those Jordan's extra explosiveness was hurting not only the team success, but his individual success interms of being the good all around player.

What is a good all around player? A good all around player is another word for second tier scorer. I can go on but that's not the point.

Jordan was better than Kobe in explosiveness but those extra explosiveness wasnt needed for a championship run.

2) Mid-Range jumper.
Dont get me wrong, Jordan has the mid-range jumper already he first came to the league. But he only used it when he was being stay infront by defense when he was younger. Or he used that stop and pop when defender played him for the drive. So what's here to complain? I complained he didnt use that shot for NOT ALLOWING TEAM DEFENSE TO BE ABLE TO CROWD HIM FORCE TO PASS TO SOMEONE when he was younger. But Kobe has already understood that he needed that mid-range jumper to prvent the team defense to force Kobe to pass the ball to someone else. And again, what's here to complain? I dont complain, I actually admired that Kobe used that shot perfectly so you rather see "Kobe passing the ball to someone for a game winner in NBA finals!" And this is what I think the only thing Vince Carter is lacking in being the true first option on a championship team. Kobe has that, and Iverson has that already.

I will stop for now, because I want to see some responses before I go on. I dont want this post to be another ignored post because I have a feeling that no one could even touch the begining of my serious breakdowns on Jordan or Kobe.

Let me warn you all, I mean talking about INTERMS OF WINNING GAMES IN CLUTCH SITUATIONS, KOBE WAS BETTER THAN JORDAN BECAUSE HE UNDERSTOOD THE GAME MORE. HE KNEW WHAT DIDNT WORK AND WHAT WAS WORKING. OF COURSE KOBE COULDNT PLAY LIKE THE YOUNG JORDAN BUT YOUNG JORDAN STYLE OF PLAY WOULDNT INCREASE THE CHANCE OF WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP THAN A YOUNG KOBE.


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## Jester (Feb 7, 2005)

> Let me warn you all, I mean talking about INTERMS OF WINNING GAMES IN CLUTCH SITUATIONS, KOBE WAS BETTER THAN JORDAN BECAUSE HE UNDERSTOOD THE GAME MORE. HE KNEW WHAT DIDNT WORK AND WHAT WAS WORKING. OF COURSE KOBE COULDNT PLAY LIKE THE YOUNG JORDAN BUT YOUNG JORDAN STYLE OF PLAY WOULDNT INCREASE THE CHANCE OF WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP THAN A YOUNG KOBE.


This is a purely hypothetical and speculative argument. There's no way to know that, if the Bulls had Kobe instead of Jordan as the undisputed team leader, they would have a better chance of winning a championship. Same thing with Jordan instead of Kobe on the Millenium Lakers.

I want to know exactly what your argument is for Kobe "understanding the game more" than Jordan did in clutch situations. Is this a comparison between the two players at a young age, or overall? I would rather give the ball every single time to a prime Jordan rather than a prime Kobe late in the game.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

How in the world did this thread get to by 23 pages long?! The NBA is having one of it's best seasons in awhile and this thread is at post #331?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Pioneer10 said:


> How in the world did this thread get to by 23 pages long?! The NBA is having one of it's best seasons in awhile and this thread is at post #331?


this thread is 2 years old.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Jester said:


> This is a purely hypothetical and speculative argument. There's no way to know that, if the Bulls had Kobe instead of Jordan as the undisputed team leader, they would have a better chance of winning a championship. Same thing with Jordan instead of Kobe on the Millenium Lakers.
> 
> I want to know exactly what your argument is for Kobe "understanding the game more" than Jordan did in clutch situations. Is this a comparison between the two players at a young age, or overall? I would rather give the ball every single time to a prime Jordan rather than a prime Kobe late in the game.


Young VS Young boy.


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## Jester (Feb 7, 2005)

The Gipper said:


> Since then as Jordan's career SHOT up like a rocket from 87 (37 PPG), 88 (MVP, DPOY), 89 (32.5 PPG, 8 RPG, 8 APG -- averaged a triple double in his 60 starts at PG that season.


Is this true? Do you have the exact triple-double averages? I recall he had 9 triple-doubles in his first 11 games, and then 11 triple-doubles in 14 games towards the end of the season -- all while starting at PG. But I didn't know he averaged a triple-double in his PG starts!


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

John said:


> Okay, let's start.
> 
> 1) Explosiveness
> Jordan all the way, he is lighter, quicker and is a better leaper espeically when they are both 26 years old. Kobe is declining in his athletic ability as he could finish better in drives a few years back as opposed to what he is now.


Kobe right now can still finish like he used to, but then again, I never found Kobe to have the pure explosiveness of Allen Iverson or even someone like Dwayne Wade now. His first step is good but not great, but hes a great ball handler with a low dribble and still has the quickness to beat most defenders. When he actually does go one on one, rather than 1 on 2 or 3, and takes it to the basket, he really looks no different from 2 or 3 years ago. Right now, I think the thing that is really hurting Kobe's offense is that he doesn't go to his mid range jumpshot that much anymore. Either he drives to the basket and draws a foul, or shoots a contested pull up jumper from 30 ft out, usually the latter. For the first half of the season, I rarely ever saw him consistently go to a midrange game nor play off the ball for a catch and shoot game.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Jester said:


> Is this true? Do you have the exact triple-double averages? I recall he had 9 triple-doubles in his first 11 games, and then 11 triple-doubles in 14 games towards the end of the season -- all while starting at PG. But I didn't know he averaged a triple-double in his PG starts!



jordan didn't average a triple double over 60 games.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

If there are two things I learned from this thread, it's 1) people have trouble letting go of the past, and 2) don't argue with kflo if you're The Gipper.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> *If we're throwing away seasons, then I think it's fair to throw out Kobe's first four seasons* since he was fresh out of high school. That would mean he has played five prime seasons, and has well over half his prime career left.
> 
> Anyways, Minstrel summed it up. It's not absurd to compare the best perimeter players of today to Jordan, it's not a complete landslide.


Wrong

If you should throw out any seasons of Kobe's, it should only be his first 2 Seasons, after that he equals the same age Jordan was when Jordan entered the league AND in Kobe's 3rd year, he started playing the same minutes that Jordan did throughout his career

But it doesent matter, give Kobe 2 more years, it won't help, him or anyone else in the NBA can't accomplish almost half of what Jordan accomplished in that time


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## DanDickau (Jan 9, 2005)

Jordan is way better then Kobe!! And he will always be!!


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> *Due to your intense hatred of Kobe Bryant you continually argue a position nobody is advocating.* Find any place in my post where I argue that Bryant is Jordan's equal. I said several times that Jordan is clearly superior. So we can cut through your reams of reasons why Jordan is actually better.
> 
> The point is that that Bryant is a phenomenally talented player who does a few things near Jordan's level. Not everything, a few things. And even in those, Jordan is better.
> 
> But the agenda that Bryant-haters and Jordan-devotees are pushing, that Bryant can't compare to Jordan in any facet, is absurd. He can compare and come close on a few things. That's why Bryant will be in the next tier of perimeter players all-time, when all is said and done. Because he can come close to Jordan here and there but can't match him overall.


Havent you realized yet, the Intense Hatred that Laker fans have for Michael Jordan? Have you not seen the un-advocating arguments made by guys like kflo?

I guess I'm the only one who has realized that the sports media has brainwashed most of every basketball fan, am I right? Just because Kobe walks, talks and acts like Jordan, doesent mean he is close to jordan's level

The guy hasnt come anywhere near accomplishing what Jordan has and Kobe has been in the league now for 9 years. So what makes him so comparable to Jordan? Oh I see, it's because he is 6'7", he licks his lips like jordan, chews gum like jordan, walks with the same swagger as jordan, and talks exactly like him. And btw, if I hear anyone try and mention that even LeBron is better than Jordan already, I'm going to have a Laugh-Attack


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Nique21 said:


> Havent you realized yet, the Intense Hatred that Laker fans have for Michael Jordan? Have you not seen the un-advocating arguments made by guys like kflo?


I don't think all Lakers fans hate Jordan. And I have no reason to believe kflo does. He's argued for Jordan in debates, and he's not arguing _against_ Jordan in this one. He's trying to counter the anti-Kobe bias that pervades this discussion that suggests that Bryant can't compare in *any* facet to Jordan, that they're in two separate leagues of ability. Both are great players, Jordan just does mostly everything better, to varying degrees. A point kflo has never argued.



> I guess I'm the only one who has realized that the sports media has brainwashed most of every basketball fan, am I right? Just because Kobe walks, talks and acts like Jordan, doesent mean he is close to jordan's level


You feel you're the only one who escaped this insidious brainwashing? I'm sure that's why this thread is heavily in favour of Bryant and the poll reflects Bryant being close to Jordan in most people's eyes.

If any brainwashing has gone on, it's the brainwashing that Jordan was a god and there's no one who can compare. The most talented perimeter players of this generation can compare. Except for maybe James, they will all fall short...but they can _reasonably_ compare.



> The guy hasnt come anywhere near accomplishing what Jordan has and Kobe has been in the league now for 9 years. So what makes him so comparable to Jordan?


The fact that he's an elite slasher and finisher, very good mid-range shooter and very good passer and rebounder for his position as well as a good defender. The fact that he's one of the very best players in the game and a Hall of Fame all-around player who scores at elite levels. That's what makes him comparable. Not equal. Comparable.



> Oh I see, it's because he is 6'7", he licks his lips like jordan, chews gum like jordan, walks with the same swagger as jordan, and talks exactly like him.


I think you're reinforcing my belief that those who hammer away at Kobe so unmercifully are really reacting more to his perceived image and hype and not to his game.



> And btw, if I hear anyone try and mention that even LeBron is better than Jordan already, I'm going to have a Laugh-Attack


Yes, another assertion no one has made. The closest anyone has come is that he _might_ one day surpass Jordan.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Drewbs said:


> Kobe right now can still finish like he used to, but then again, I never found Kobe to have the pure explosiveness of Allen Iverson or even someone like Dwayne Wade now. His first step is good but not great, but hes a great ball handler with a low dribble and still has the quickness to beat most defenders. When he actually does go one on one, rather than 1 on 2 or 3, and takes it to the basket, he really looks no different from 2 or 3 years ago. Right now, I think the thing that is really hurting Kobe's offense is that he doesn't go to his mid range jumpshot that much anymore. Either he drives to the basket and draws a foul, or shoots a contested pull up jumper from 30 ft out, usually the latter. For the first half of the season, I rarely ever saw him consistently go to a midrange game nor play off the ball for a catch and shoot game.


1) The reason you think he would finish the same like what he used to be because you wouldnt know there were some situations where he would JUMP in the past as he wouldnt JUMP right now. Of course I am not saying he is not athletic anymore but he does lose a bit like Iverson loses a bit and Carter loses a bit.

Iverson is a legit small guy that he could use his speed to bear guys off the drfbble and his scoring ability is few steps above Wade. I dont understand why you bough Wade up, the guy is 6'4" and he is trapped in between the small guy and big perimeter guy. And he looks so explosive because Stan Van Gundy used him perfectly. He allowed Wade to attack in early offense but go through shaq when going for halfcourt offense.

I never said Kobe has a catch and shoot game coming off screens, and I dont see where you are saying he doesnt go for mid range jumper anymore. Did you mean he start missing them and stop taking them?

I mean If you were 22 right now I see a case but you were 10-12 years old back then Kobe was even more high flying then he is now, someone wouldnt expect you to study the game when you were 10 as opposed to now. No disrespect but I dont find your post worth debating..


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

> I don't think all Lakers fans hate Jordan. And I have no reason to believe kflo does. He's argued for Jordan in debates, and he's not arguing against Jordan in this one. He's trying to counter the anti-Kobe bias that pervades this discussion that suggests that Bryant can't compare in any facet to Jordan, that they're in two separate leagues of ability. Both are great players, Jordan just does mostly everything better, to varying degrees. A point kflo has never argued.


I kind of take notice when reading something along the lines as this statement. Why ?

Well what varying degrees are you talking about ? STATS? That just sounds like crazy talk to me. Because their is no invisible lines between these guys/Kobe/Jordan. And i'm not trying to be mean. I just have never subscribed to that kind of analyzing of players. To me your on the level or your not. Kobe certainly is not. A few have been in the NBA. It's a short list. And in my opinion MJ was the greatest out of them all.

There is Michael Jordan a tough kid that had to work on every aspect of his game to become the greatest player to lace up sneakers. Than you have Kobe Bryant (who by the way I really enjoy watching on the court. He is one of my favorite players.) Who equally works as hard as MJ but is no where near the level of MJ. And it isnt even close. It's a wide gap. Just because someone can perform and imitate someone doesnt make them special or close to someone. Not in my opinion anyway. And that's all were talking about here at this point is opinions. Because Kobe is only half way through his nba career. Jordan has finished his. And MJ's Resume over shadows Kobe's resume even with the 3 rings. I think it's very lofty for Kobe fans to even compare the two guys resume. Their is no comparison. And most likely never will be.

One thing I would like to say is that, I only judge basketball players based on their play on the hardwood floor. I know a lot of kobe and MJ fan's use personal situations to demean the players. This is not where I'm coming from. I can Separate the artist from their art. Both special players but MJ is the G.O.A.T. Nobody is on his level and I doubt anyone ever will be. Not even Lebron James. Although i love watching his game and am a huge fan. Just don't see the killer instinct in Lebron James. Maybe that will come in time.

Remember 1 love for the game! Thats why we are all here.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

23AirJordan said:


> I kind of take notice when reading something along the lines as this statement. Why ?
> 
> Well what varying degrees are you talking about ?


By varying degrees I mean that Jordan is better than Bryant by different amounts in different aspects. Bryant is very close to Jordan as a passer. Bryant is further from Jordan in the ability to slash and finish as well as in defense. Bryant is closer to Jordan in mid-range shooting and further from Jordan in terms of perimeter shooting.

I'm not sure there's anything I would say Bryant is equal to Jordan in (maybe ball-handling), but he's close to Jordan in certain things. And farther away in other things. The upshot of that is that Jordan is clearly the better player and a level of value above...but that doesn't make comparisons totally unfounded. As long as one recognizes Bryant is going to come up short.



> Just because someone can perform and imitate someone doesnt make them special or close to someone.


I don't really know what you mean by "perform and imitate." Bryant is a similar *type* of player to Jordan. A big, aggressive scoring guard with an all-around game and good defense. That alone doesn't make him close, no. It's his ability in each aspect of basketball that comes close to Jordan or not. As a total basketball player, he's not all that close. In various aspects, he is close.

I'm a big fan of Jordan and I used to marvel at the things he did. I miss being able to watch a prime Jordan. But I don't accept the notion that nobody even comes close enough to Jordan, today, to even be worth _comparing_ to Jordan. I think the very best perimeter players of this generation (Bryant, McGrady, Iverson) are close enough to Jordan to compare to him. They come up short, but it's not ridiculous to see how they measure up to Jordan.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

kflo said:


> you're latching on to a thread that's years old and coming in like it's a fresh debate. it's stale, but you don't want it to be. you're trying to pile onto a dead carcass, because it's easy and you can feel victorious. get over it. i'm not one of your h.s. buddies who gave you shi* because the lakers were winning titles and the bulls were losing 80 games a year and jordan was an old man. take this up with them.


this is one of the best knockout posts ive ever read on here. this is why little kids shouldnt mess with this guy. he's been doing it for years. he doesnt apologize for humiliating fools. it comes naturally.


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## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

A simple YES should do it.


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## DaBobZ (Sep 22, 2003)

no comment.. 

easy call


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

Why is it that no one even replies to this thread, yet it keeps mysteriously getting Bumped??


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Nique21 said:


> Why is it that no one even replies to this thread, yet it keeps mysteriously getting Bumped??


My guess is that now new votes bump poll threads. Not certain, though.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Aww, it's so sad that the Gipper was banned. Poor guy. Now all we need is for Chise to keep baiting and he'll be rushed off the cutting room floor and then make a new name (and another email address) and get banned/suspended all over again.

Some of you fools are so blinded by hate, you can't even read. I need to start giving out school vouchers cause a mind is a terrible thing to waste.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

I wanna know whose the one little dude that voted for "Someone other than Jordan". Dudes all by himself...


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## MiamiWade (Jan 23, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Yes, another assertion no one has made. The closest anyone has come is that he _might_ one day surpass Jordan.



Nope he is not close. and no he wont surpass Jordan. !!


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

MiamiWade said:


> Nope he is not close. and no he wont surpass Jordan. !!


Definitive assertions based on nothing are worth exactly that.


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## MiamiWade (Jan 23, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Definitive assertions based on nothing are worth exactly that.


Exactly unless Kobe actually is better, no amount of debating will make him so. The results are there to see.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

MiamiWade said:


> Exactly unless Kobe actually is better, no amount of debating will make him so. The results are there to see.


The comment you responded to was about _LeBron James_, not Kobe Bryant.

And it also wasn't "definitive," as it used the term "might."


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