# Steve Nash vs Chris Paul



## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

*(Red marks winner of that category)*​

I'm not sure why everyone says Paul is better then Nash.
What are your thoughts? Nash still reighs supreme or has
Paul passed him?


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## Pnack (Aug 23, 2005)

I take the two time MVP and CANADIAN.


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## CaliCool (Nov 5, 2004)

Nash is more of a scoring threat right now than Paul.

And btw look at the difference in the steals.

It's not a crazy comparison.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=973 border=0><COLGROUP><COL width=61><COL width=60><COL width=96><COL width=41><COL width=8><COL width=24><COL width=48><COL width=45><COL width=8><COL width=39><COL width=39><COL width=39><COL width=49><COL width=33><COL width=8><COL width=39><COL width=49><COL width=39><COL width=50><COL width=50><COL width=8><COL width=52><TBODY><TR><TD width=270 colSpan=4>PLAYER INFO
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=125 colSpan=3>GAMES
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=217 colSpan=5>SHOOTING STATS
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=311 colSpan=7>HOLLINGER'S STATS (leaders)
</TD></TR><TR><TD width=61>RANK​</TD><TD width=60>TEAM​</TD><TD width=96>NAME​</TD><TD width=41>POS​</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=24>G​</TD><TD width=48>MIN/G​</TD><TD width=45>PTS/40​</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>eFG​</TD><TD width=39>FT%​</TD><TD width=39>3P%​</TD><TD width=49>TS%​</TD><TD width=33>FT/FG​</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>PPR​</TD><TD width=49>AST-r​</TD><TD width=39>TO-r​</TD><TD width=50>REB-r​</TD><TD width=50>USG-r​</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=52>PER​</TD></TR><TR><TD width=61>13​</TD><TD width=60>PHI​</TD><TD width=96>Allen Iverson​</TD><TD width=41>PG​</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=24>13
</TD><TD width=48>43.5
</TD><TD width=45>29.5
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>43.5
</TD><TD width=39>89.0
</TD><TD width=39>22.4
</TD><TD width=49>52.90
</TD><TD width=33>39
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>1.6
</TD><TD width=49>17.5
</TD><TD width=39>9.9
</TD><TD width=50>4.0
</TD><TD width=50>33.7
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=52>24.74​</TD></TR><TR><TD width=61>16​</TD><TD width=60>DET​</TD><TD width=96>Chauncey Billups​</TD><TD width=41>PG​</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=24>16
</TD><TD width=48>36.9
</TD><TD width=45>19.6
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>51.9
</TD><TD width=39>88.7
</TD><TD width=39>38.7
</TD><TD width=49>62.70
</TD><TD width=33>57
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>9.7
</TD><TD width=49>34.2
</TD><TD width=39>8.7
</TD><TD width=50>4.1
</TD><TD width=50>22.0
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=52>24.17​</TD></TR><TR><TD width=61>18​</TD><TD width=60>NOR​</TD><TD width=96>Chris Paul​</TD><TD width=41>PG​</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=24>16
</TD><TD width=48>36.8
</TD><TD width=45>19.9
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>47.1
</TD><TD width=39>81.2
</TD><TD width=39>25.0
</TD><TD width=49>54.20
</TD><TD width=33>34
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>7.8
</TD><TD width=49>31.3
</TD><TD width=39>11.1
</TD><TD width=50>6.5
</TD><TD width=50>25.6
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=52>23.91​</TD></TR><TR><TD width=61>20​</TD><TD width=60>PHO​</TD><TD width=96>Steve Nash​</TD><TD width=41>PG​</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=24>13
</TD><TD width=48>36.8
</TD><TD width=45>22.3
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>59.4
</TD><TD width=39>90.2
</TD><TD width=39>47.0
</TD><TD width=49>64.00
</TD><TD width=33>25
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>9.7
</TD><TD width=49>35.4
</TD><TD width=39>11.9
</TD><TD width=50>4.1
</TD><TD width=50>24.2
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=52>23.29​</TD></TR><TR><TD width=61>23​</TD><TD width=60>GSW​</TD><TD width=96>Baron Davis​</TD><TD width=41>PG​</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=24>13
</TD><TD width=48>36.1
</TD><TD width=45>23.1
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>47.9
</TD><TD width=39>74.4
</TD><TD width=39>26.9
</TD><TD width=49>53.10
</TD><TD width=33>28
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>7.7
</TD><TD width=49>26.9
</TD><TD width=39>8.8
</TD><TD width=50>6.0
</TD><TD width=50>26.4
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=52>22.65​</TD></TR><TR><TD width=61>24​</TD><TD width=60>WAS​</TD><TD width=96>Gilbert Arenas​</TD><TD width=41>PG​</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=24>16
</TD><TD width=48>37.9
</TD><TD width=45>26.8
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>46.2
</TD><TD width=39>83.8
</TD><TD width=39>39.6
</TD><TD width=49>54.00
</TD><TD width=33>36
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=39>1.5
</TD><TD width=49>19.3
</TD><TD width=39>11.1
</TD><TD width=50>6.1
</TD><TD width=50>30.7
</TD><TD width=8> 
</TD><TD width=52>22.55​</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

> I'm not sure why *everyone* says Paul is better then Nash.


Really? Who is everyone?


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

girllovesthegame said:


> Really? Who is everyone?




On another board they were declaring Paul the
best point guard in the NBA after that monster thriple
-double that he had.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

Dr.Seuss said:


> On another board they were declaring Paul the
> best point guard in the NBA after that monster thriple
> -double that he had.


Well dang. What does that make Kidd who has had 2 triple dips already this season? LOL!


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Dr.Seuss said:


> On another board they were declaring Paul the
> best point guard in the NBA after that monster thriple
> -double that he had.


That game came after three in which the rest of the team shot about 30% from the field.

Before you start comparing the raw numbers that Nash and Paul produce you should think about the fact that the Suns are third in the NBA in pace and the Hornets are 20th.Then tell us how many assist Nash would have if he were playing on a team starting Tyson Chandler(5.9 ppg)Desmond Mason(10.7 ppg)Rasual Butler(4.9 ppg) and Marc Jackson(6.9ppg).I believe that the Suns fans love to tell us about how great their players are,so you can tell us that those guys can make shots better than the Suns' players.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Diable said:


> That game came after three in which the rest of the team shot about 30% from the field.
> 
> Before you start comparing the raw numbers that Nash and Paul produce you should think about the fact that the Suns are third in the NBA in pace and the Hornets are 20th.Then tell us how many assist Nash would have if he were playing on a team starting Tyson Chandler(5.9 ppg)Desmond Mason(10.7 ppg)Rasual Butler(4.9 ppg) and Marc Jackson(6.9ppg).I believe that the Suns fans love to tell us about how great their players are,so you can tell us that those guys can make shots better than the Suns' players.



Pace cannot determine how good of a passer your are. 
If Nash was in the Hornets offense, I'd expect around the same
numbers. Nash gets most if not all of his assist in the halfcourt set.
If Nash had a sharp-shooter like Peja, I'm sure he'd have around the same assist
numbers. 

The difference is how big their roles are. Nash is asked to make
plays almost everytime down the floor. Paul using a system to set up
their offense. Not necessarily the pace, rather then what they have to do
for their teams.


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## Lebbron (Nov 20, 2005)

Dr.Seuss said:


> Pace cannot determine how good of a passer your are.
> If Nash was in the Hornets offense, I'd expect around the same
> numbers. Nash gets most if not all of his assist in the halfcourt set.
> If Nash had a sharp-shooter like Peja, I'm sure he'd have around the same assist
> ...


I disagree if you are saying Paul has a smaller role on his team than Nash. Byron Scott is very strict on the defensive end but offensively his system doesn't have much structure at all, which I think helps PG's develop in the long run, but gives them all the responsibility. But I agree Nash is better now because he can shoot better.


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## PFortyy (May 31, 2006)

nash is way btter then paul!


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

Nash and it isn't even close. Nash has won 2 MVP awards and has led the league in assists and is known for making players better, way better, then they really are. The last time I saw that in a PG was Stockton.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Hm, who voted for Paul? I wonder..

same person who makes a case for Paul in almost everything.


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

Dissonance19 said:


> Hm, who voted for Paul? I wonder..
> 
> same person who makes a case for Paul in almost everything.


The Big D, and I don't mean Dallas. :biggrin:


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## AUNDRE (Jul 11, 2005)

Nash


but it is possible that one day you can say.... Chris Paul in his prime > Steve Nash in his prime


way too early to crown him though



I will say that Nash looks a lot better out there because of the talent hes around, Paul dosent really have a good team around him and defensively Im taking Paul over Nash


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Pretty much a tossup this year. Both "make their teammates better" but Nash has teammates that have met him halfway. Nash is a great passer and ball handler but I actually think Paul has him about even on that. Nash is a much better shooter but Paul is a much better defender. I can't imagine much difference in either team if they switched. Like I said, pretty much a toss up at this point of the season.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Paul isnt even close to Nash as of yet.


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

Nash all the way. Way too early to even think of comparing Chris Paul with Nash. Maybe someday. Remember when people thought Damon Stoudamire was going to be the superstar pg for the future when he was ~20/10 as a rookie?


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

i think nash is my favorite player in the NBA.


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## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

mysterio said:


> Nash all the way. Way too early to even think of comparing Chris Paul with Nash. Maybe someday. Remember when people thought Damon Stoudamire was going to be the superstar pg for the future when he was ~20/10 as a rookie?


Yea but Stoudy still would of been a 17/7 talent IMO if he hadn't joined a stacked Portland franchise. Plus when he was doing his 20/10 thing in Toronto they were winning 20 games a season, Paul is doing his and leading an average group to good results.

Still it has to be Nash at this point in time.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Diable said:


> That game came after three in which the rest of the team shot about 30% from the field.
> 
> Before you start comparing the raw numbers that Nash and Paul produce you should think about the fact that the Suns are third in the NBA in pace and the Hornets are 20th.Then tell us how many assist Nash would have if he were playing on a team starting Tyson Chandler(5.9 ppg)Desmond Mason(10.7 ppg)Rasual Butler(4.9 ppg) and Marc Jackson(6.9ppg).I believe that the Suns fans love to tell us about how great their players are,so you can tell us that those guys can make shots better than the Suns' players.


Funny how you keep normalizing things with pace, and then try to distort the truth by making it sound like Paul plays all his games with those four mentioned above. If your going to bring up pace , don't lie about the fact that Paul has played the majority of his games with Peja and West (or at least some). And don't bring up raw PPG numbers when they are only really low because of minutes played... because they are not the actual starters


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

Too bad we can't see who voted for Paul. Funny stuff.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Card Trader said:


> Too bad we can't see who voted for Paul. Funny stuff.


I thought that was obvious


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I'll take Isiah Jr. , who's only what? 21, 22?


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## Lebbron (Nov 20, 2005)

Card Trader said:


> Too bad we can't see who voted for Paul. Funny stuff.


You must not know Diable one of the biggest homers on the board. 

That said Nash isn't that much better than Paul.


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

HB said:


> I thought that was obvious


I figured it was D.....but, SirPatchwork has his Paul manlove flowing pretty freely lately.


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## AJC NYC (Aug 16, 2005)

oh yeah Jkidd is too old to be mentioned even though he averaging a near triple double
and Nash is only 11 months younger than Kidd


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

AJC NYC said:


> oh yeah Jkidd is too old to be talked about even though he averaging a near triple double
> and Nash is only 11 months younger than Kidd



This was strictly about Paul vs Nash.
No one is saying Kidd doesn't deserve to be mention as
one of the best point guards. Lets leave that for another discussion.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

As of right now, today, I'd say Nash. I have heard others (sportswriters, columnists, etc. say that Nash may be the only pg that Paul is looking up at right now). But of course we all know that this is their opinions. But out of curiosity, how different would the numbers be if Nash had played 16 games and Paul had played 13? Probably not much. Or is it because they played the same number of minutes is all that matters?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Card Trader said:


> I figured it was D.....but, SirPatchwork has his Paul manlove flowing pretty freely lately.


It doesn't take bias in either direction to pick Paul over Nash or vice versa. It does take bias, or "man love" as you call it, to pick one over the other and act like it's "not even close" as some in this thread have put it. 

I don't vote in polls, so I guess Diable is the answer to who voted Paul.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Im probably one of the biggest fans of CP3 here... and I've proclaimed a MVP candidate in the near future..

BUT he is not better than Nash as of today... tomorrow.. or this season.. (barring injuries).

Steve Nash's stats can even be higher on a team where there is less stars. People are assuming Nash is just a passer... this guy can score 25 a game himself... he is a top shooter, can penetrate and doesnt miss from the freethrow. Double him and he'd find an open man... even a Tyson Chandler type... given open looks around 5 feet around the ring.. can score 12-16 points a game with Nash. Then you throw in Peja.... Desmond (finisher)... etc... Nash still has capable players..

The knock on Nash having good team mates should be rested... since last season he basically got a whole new cast and still produced.. and even put Raja Bell, Diaw, T.Thomas etc on the map... of course those players always had talent.. but never the right team mate to make them play them better.

Put new players around Nash again.. I thinki he'd be the same... the common factor is the coach needs to let Nash play the style that suits him... just like D'Antoni is... And if some people bring that style/tempo up... then I ask you... why would a coach NOT construct a system that suits the team's best player?..... you wont see a coach try to implement a run and gun with Shaq or Duncan... so why be a slow down half court team with players like Nash?


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Nash. Superior in offensive talent.

BTW, Nash's defense hasn't been that poor this year, so the whole "Nash doesn't play D" argument doesn't really work. Nash, along with the whole team, seem to be playing better defense this year.


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

Nash with 20 assists in one game and 42 points in the next. Paul still has a lot of ground to cover.


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## Lebbron (Nov 20, 2005)

Both have put up amazing stats the last week. Look at the who's hot list for G.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba


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## TracywtFacy (Mar 29, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> Nash. Superior in offensive talent.
> 
> BTW, Nash's defense hasn't been that poor this year, so the whole "Nash doesn't play D" argument doesn't really work. Nash, along with the whole team, seem to be playing better defense this year.


hm, is that how they gave up 157 pts in a game, and Kidd had 38-14-14? Good D?

It's not really fair to compare, they are both in the top 5 in PG, they are both the real deal... obviously nash has the edge shooting-wise, but I'd say 90% of teams would go for CP if they had to choose one of them.


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

TracywtFacy said:


> hm, is that how they gave up 157 pts in a game, and Kidd had 38-14-14? Good D?
> 
> It's not really fair to compare, they are both in the top 5 in PG, they are both the real deal... obviously nash has the edge shooting-wise, but I'd say 90% of teams would go for CP if they had to choose one of them.


Choose one of them for the next 10 years, sure....I'd take CP also. Choose one of them for the next 3 years? Nash all the way and twice on gameday. Paul isn't in Nash's league....yet.


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## Lebbron (Nov 20, 2005)

Card Trader said:


> Paul isn't in Nash's league....yet.


Nash is better, but not by as much as you think.




> Nash with 20 assists in one game and 42 points in the next. Paul still has a lot of ground to cover.


25.5 Pts, 14.5 Ast, 4.0 Stl 8.5 rebounds

Paul's last 2 games aren't bad either, and that's with Rasul Butler and Jannero Pargo as his main weapons


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## Intense Enigma (Oct 22, 2005)

Nash and is not even close

i just laugh everytime i read or hear somebody saying Paul is the best PG in the league,oh boy...............

Nash & Kidd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everybody else


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

TracywtFacy said:


> hm, is that how they gave up 157 pts in a game, and Kidd had 38-14-14? Good D?
> 
> It's not really fair to compare, they are both in the top 5 in PG, they are both the real deal... obviously nash has the edge shooting-wise, but I'd say 90% of teams would go for CP if they had to choose one of them.


90%? Sorry but that is moronic. I hate it when people pull numbers out of their ***. 

Also if you want to put Kidd's stats as an argument against Nash's D than why not go vice versa and ask what does Nash's 42 points say about Kidd's defense?

Everybody knows Nash's D is far from all-defensive team standards but his value is on the offensive end and right now there is no better PG at running an offense than Nash.

Paul is good but not as good...yet. But it is unfair to compare a player in his prime to a player who is in his 2nd year. Paul is clearly the heir to Nash's PG throne though.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Would you admit that Nash is playing with better talent than Paul as well, which helps his assist numbers? 

Who would you take? 


Amare Stoudemire, Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, Raja Bell, Leandro Barbosa vs. Peja Stojakovic, Tyson Chandler, Desmond Mason,Bobby Jackson and Rasual Butler.

Just sayin...


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Nash is better, but.. 44-4? I don't think the difference between them is 40 points. Heh.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

i voted for paul. not necessarily because i think paul is better, but because i think calling nash leagues above paul is dumb.


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## Silent Lamb (Dec 18, 2005)

HKF said:


> Would you admit that Nash is playing with better talent than Paul as well, which helps his assist numbers?
> 
> Who would you take?
> 
> ...


Look at what Steve Nash has done with his cast though. Boris Diaw was a nobody before coming to Phoenix and Raja Bell was an unspectacular 6th man for the Utah Jazz. Meanwhile, Peja Stojakovic was a former MVP candidate, and Desmond Mason's stats have actually dropped considerably since arriving with the Hornets.

Steve Nash wins, but it's not as obvious as this poll makes it out to be. Paul is certainly a fine player, and will only improve. I think Nash has peaked as a player.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Shawn Marion, Leandro Barbosa and Amare Stoudemire are better than anyone that Paul plays with and I think it's pretty easy to see that.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Steve Nash is certainly the better player. One thing he doesn't do nearly as well as Paul is defend, but otherwise it's Nash, especially as a shooter (not because Paul isn't a good shooter, but because Nash is the best shooter in the league right now). But they're not that far apart, unless you're a snot-nosed Suns fan.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

> But it is unfair to compare a player in his prime to a player who is in his 2nd year.


:clap: I agree.

And it's too funny that this thread was bumped after Nash's huge double OT game.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

steve nash is the best point guard i've ever seen.


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

The young point guards taken last year will all be top 5 PGs in 5 years, they are the future at the 1 for this league. Paul, Deron, Felton, and Monta will all be part of the top 5 in 3 years. I guarantee it. Nash and Kidd will be old news when these young point guards show their true colors.

Right now it is Nash, in the future it will be Paul easily. You can't argue the impact Paul has made since he has came into the league. He recently beat the Lakers on the Lakers home court without West and Peja. That says a lot about him. Shows how much potential he really has even when the cards are against him.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

AK-47 said:


> The young point guards taken last year will all be top 5 PGs in 5 years, they are the future at the 1 for this league. Paul, Deron, Felton, and Monta will all be part of the top 5 in 3 years. I guarantee it. Nash and Kidd will be old news when these young point guards show their true colors.
> 
> Right now it is Nash, in the future it will be Paul easily. You can't argue the impact Paul has made since he has came into the league. He recently beat the Lakers on the Lakers home court without West and Peja. That says a lot about him. Shows how much potential he really has even when the cards are against him.


How about Jarrett Jack? Think he'll be in that top 5? I need to watch a little more of him. Saw a couple of his college games and maybe 3 of his Portland games.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Jack shows flashes of being really good.I think he would have been a lock top five pick this season if he'd stayed in school.He's a tough guy and a very good defender,but he's been inconsistent and he's turned the ball over quite a lot.He can definitely play in the NBA,but he's got things to work on if he's going to be a real factor in this argument.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Silent Lamb said:


> Look at what Steve Nash has done with his cast though.


My only problem with this argument is this. Are Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire all-star caliber forwards or not? It seems like a pretty popular opinion for fans to believe that they are all-star caliber, or even MVP caliber forwards independant of Nash, but then at the same time want to give Nash credit for their success. Those things can't go together. If Nash has turned these guys into all-stars, then he deserves his MVP awards without question, but if that's the case, Amare and Marion shouldn't be taking spots on the all-star team especially with the forward situation in the west being so clogged with great players.


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

girllovesthegame said:


> How about Jarrett Jack? Think he'll be in that top 5? I need to watch a little more of him. Saw a couple of his college games and maybe 3 of his Portland games.


I see him as a future top 10 for sure. But Paul, Deron, Felton, and Ellis are going to all be special players. 

Steve Nash is all offense, that is why I think Paul will have the advantage in the future, because he plays defense a lot better than Nash and by the time Paul is in his prime, he will be putting up Nash's Offensive numbers. This will probably be the PG rankings IMO after Pauls career is over.

1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Kidd
4. Paul
5. Nash
6. Deron
....


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> My only problem with this argument is this. Are Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire all-star caliber forwards or not? It seems like a pretty popular opinion for fans to believe that they are all-star caliber, or even MVP caliber forwards independant of Nash, but then at the same time want to give Nash credit for their success. Those things can't go together. If Nash has turned these guys into all-stars, then he deserves his MVP awards without question, but if that's the case, Amare and Marion shouldn't be taking spots on the all-star team especially with the forward situation in the west being so clogged with great players.


Amare and Marion were putting up pretty much the same numbers before Nash arrived. In 03-04 in particular, Amare only averaged about 20 for the season, but once Marbury left he averaged probably about 24 PPG. Nash makes it easier for them, but he definitely doesn't make them what they are and they are more than capable of being all-stars without him.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> My only problem with this argument is this. Are Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire all-star caliber forwards or not? It seems like a pretty popular opinion for fans to believe that they are all-star caliber, or even MVP caliber forwards independant of Nash, but then at the same time want to give Nash credit for their success. Those things can't go together. If Nash has turned these guys into all-stars, then he deserves his MVP awards without question, but if that's the case, Amare and Marion shouldn't be taking spots on the all-star team especially with the forward situation in the west being so clogged with great players.


Amare an all-star? I swear that you were the one who repeatedly proclaimed Amare was "done". Interesting change in view.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

HKF said:


> Shawn Marion, Leandro Barbosa and Amare Stoudemire are better than anyone that Paul plays with and I think it's pretty easy to see that.


What's your point? That's why New Orleans isn't very good and Phoenix is.

BTW, Suns didn't have Amare last year, and Barbosa only started peaking late into last season. Yet they still dominated.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

EHL said:


> Steve Nash is certainly the better player. One thing he doesn't do nearly as well as Paul is defend, but otherwise it's Nash, especially as a shooter (not because Paul isn't a good shooter, but because Nash is the best shooter in the league right now). But they're not that far apart, unless you're a *snot-nosed *Suns fan.


You calling anyone snot-nosed is hilarious.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Man why are people still putting Kidd over Nash, unbelievable. I loved Kidd when he was in Phoenix, he had better stats than he ever averaged in New Jersey and he had more wins too but never beat a Western Conference team in the playoffs because of his lack of shooting and halfcourt presence.

Yeah he was great but Kidd wasnt nearly as good as Nash the last 3 years, not even close. And if you asked Suns fans who saw all of those 90% would rank them Nash, Kevin Johnson, Jason Kidd, Stephon Marbury and that is fair.

Kidd is possibly one of the 10-15 greatest PG's ever, Nash is one of the top 5, bottom line. I don't care what you have to say about career total stats or any of that bs. Nash is having 3 special seasons in a row, 2 straight MVPs that could rightfully be 3 if he continues like he does right now. That's an unmatched achievement by any PG in the history except Magic and Oscar Robertson.

Steve Nash in his prime years is better than John Stockton was, you can't argue that in my opinion. People will say Stockton played defense, I can only laugh at that. When they still allowed handchecking and Stockton was doing that all the time, that was his defense. Handchecking and Jersey-grabbing.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

KidCanada said:


> You calling anyone snot-nosed is hilarious.


You posting is hilarious, period.


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## Minstral (Dec 9, 2006)

EHL said:


> You posting is hilarious, period.


And KidCanada's post is confirmed.....


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## Minstral (Dec 9, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> My only problem with this argument is this. Are Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire all-star caliber forwards or not? It seems like a pretty popular opinion for fans to believe that they are all-star caliber, or even MVP caliber forwards independant of Nash, but then at the same time want to give Nash credit for their success. Those things can't go together. If Nash has turned these guys into all-stars, then he deserves his MVP awards without question, but if that's the case, Amare and Marion shouldn't be taking spots on the all-star team especially with the forward situation in the west being so clogged with great players.


Yeah. I agree. Amare was great for the suns last year when they went to the WCF.


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## Silent Lamb (Dec 18, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> My only problem with this argument is this. Are Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire all-star caliber forwards or not? It seems like a pretty popular opinion for fans to believe that they are all-star caliber, or even MVP caliber forwards independant of Nash, but then at the same time want to give Nash credit for their success. Those things can't go together. If Nash has turned these guys into all-stars, then he deserves his MVP awards without question, but if that's the case, Amare and Marion shouldn't be taking spots on the all-star team especially with the forward situation in the west being so clogged with great players.


You're right in that these two were already great players. However, Steve Nash pushed them to the next level - both had career years with Nash running the show. The point is not that Nash has a great supporting cast with/without him, the point is that when he plays, everyone around him plays better.


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## Andrejos (Nov 11, 2004)

The person who says that Chris Paul is better than Nash just doesnt know what they are talking abouy.


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

Amareca said:


> Kidd is possibly one of the 10-15 greatest PG's ever, Nash is one of the top 5, bottom line. I don't care what you have to say about career total stats or any of that bs. Nash is having 3 special seasons in a row, 2 straight MVPs that could rightfully be 3 if he continues like he does right now. That's an unmatched achievement by any PG in the history except Magic and Oscar Robertson.
> 
> Steve Nash in his prime years is better than John Stockton was, you can't argue that in my opinion. People will say Stockton played defense, I can only laugh at that. When they still allowed handchecking and Stockton was doing that all the time, that was his defense. Handchecking and Jersey-grabbing.


LOL. Kidd is easily in the top 10 and you can make an argument for top 5. Same goes with Nash. There is no way you can disregard their whole careers unless you are a suns homer.


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

It's not about the stats..Nash probably plays the game like no one..Paul is a good young pg.. but far from Steve


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

Sir Patchwork flip flops in his arguments more than a fish out of water.....he's all over the place!


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Oh god people this is Nash and it isnt even close. 
Nash has been 2 time MVP
Been to the WCF 3 times in his career (PHX and Dallas)


Paul? Won ROY? ooooo watch out


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

And to say Kidd isnt in the top 5 PG's of all time is just obsurd. This guy does everything. Shoot, pass, rebound, defense, lead his teams...you name it

He is in my opinion one of the best all around point guards 2nd or 3rd behid Oscar, and Magic...


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

I'll say it, Kidd is not a top five pg.

I hate these arguments about him getting to the finals. So what! It was a crappy eastern conference and everyone knew they would lose once they got there.

If the nets had been in the east those years they probably would have been a 6th or 7th seed and I doubt they would have made it out of the first round in the west once.

Where did Kidd ever lead his teams when he was in the west. Nothing. He puts up a good stat-line becuse he is a good rebounder for a PG, but he can't carry his team against the greats.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

Nash is better then Paul right now, although I'm sure in two years this will change.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

KennethTo said:


> I'll say it, Kidd is not a top five pg.
> 
> I hate these arguments about him getting to the finals. So what! It was a crappy eastern conference and everyone knew they would lose once they got there.
> 
> ...


That's right, he had better stats and more wins when he was in Phoenix. He didn't get the hype he deserved but made 3 all-nba first teams. Only the Nets turnaround and East Coast Media are responsible for the hype he got those years. He is still a top 10-15 PG of all time but he was never as good as Nash is/was the last 3 years. Nash carried his team to the WCF both of those years, Kidd never beat a Western Conference Team in the playoffs in his entire career. Technically he did one time against San Antonio but Duncan was injured for the whole series and Kidd was injured for all but the last 2 games and before Kevin Johnson came out of retirement and it was KJ and Penny Hardaway leading the Suns in that series.

On one of the biggest Suns forums on the Net there is a poll right now about the best PG in Suns history, Current Votes Nash 50, Kevin Johnson 15, Jason Kidd 2.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Aurelino said:


> LOL. Kidd is easily in the top 10 and you can make an argument for top 5. Same goes with Nash. There is no way you can disregard their whole careers unless you are a suns homer.


Dude Jason Kidd made 3 straight all-NBA teams in Phoenix, won more games almost every season than he did in New Jersey and put up better stat lines. It's not about being a homer he played great for the Suns too, but Nash is simply on a different level in his prime, Kidd can't match him.

Top 5 PGs of all time in no order
Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Bob Cousy

Next 6 in no order
Gary Payton, Kevin Johnson, Tiny Archibald, Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Walt Frazier

After that Tim Hardaway and anyone else I guess.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

HKF said:


> Would you admit that Nash is playing with better talent than Paul as well, which helps his assist numbers?
> 
> Who would you take?
> 
> ...


No one will argue that Nash is playing with better talent around him. 

But let's not act like the talent is of the same level as 2004-2005. Amare is a shade of what he used to be. Remember the season before Nash, people were saying trade Marion and that he was overrated. Diaw was a nobody before Phoenix and is hardly lighting it up this season. Who was Bell before Nash? D'Antoni's system utilized Nash's skills to the fullest but who was D'Antoni (as far as his NBA record is concerned) before Nash? The guy did have two PGs who put up great stats during his NBA coaching stints before Nash (Marbury and Van Exel) but what were the records of his teams? People will say well Amare was injured in 2003-04 well how many games did Amare play last year? It's not like Marion and Joe Johnson were injured too right? Truth is coming into last season you had Diaw starting at 5 and Amare out of majority of the season and Joe Johnson gone you would think 54 wins was crazy. Nash made them all look better. 

I'm not even looking at stats because they don't tell the whole story. Hell if stats are the basis for all arguments then the people who rode on Marbury's jock while he was putting up big time stats while the real people knew the guy was just a loser with great stats look foolish now since his stats now have all but dwindled to mediocrity. Nash is more important to the Suns' offense than just his stats. A lot of people say Nash played the same when he was with the Mavs so he is not that much of a different caliber of player. I agree but there is one important difference he is more consistent and that is because his game especially mentality has matured. It is the same with arguably the most dominant individual athlete right now, Roger Federer. Watch how he played against Sampras at Wimby in 2001. The skillset he displayed then is essentially the same skillset he plays with now with one difference he plays with more maturity and consistency. Nash is the same. Consistency is the difference between good and greatness. Nash has more value than stats like someone else said if he wanted to score 25 ppg or even hand out 14 apg he probably could. But watch him play 
(forget the stats) and the way the guy orchestrates the offense he is brillant.

No offense to Paul but he is not on Nash's level yet. Hell even according to the GM survey Kidd isn't even close and according to them Kidd was the only other PG that got votes even if it was only 3.6%. (Nash got 96.4% of GM votes which is why in my previous post I said the 90% the other poster pulled out of his *** was moronic)


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## Lebbron (Nov 20, 2005)

Gilgamesh said:


> No offense to Paul but he is not on Nash's level yet. Hell even according to the GM survey Kidd isn't even close and according to them Kidd was the only other PG that got votes even if it was only 3.6%. (Nash got 96.4% of GM votes which is why in my previous post I said the 90% the other poster pulled out of his *** was moronic)


You are misinterpreting the poll. 96.4% said Kidd wasn't better than Nash, not 96.4% saying Kidd "isn't even close".

This argument isn't going anywhere so my last statement: IMO you switch Paul and Nash, and the Suns remain contenders and their wins do not go down much.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Amareca said:


> Steve Nash in his prime years is better than John Stockton was, you can't argue that in my opinion..


I used to laugh at these type of statements but no longer. If you are comparing between their primes that argument is *legitimate*. But of course going by their careers Stockton is better.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

To illustrate how good Nash is this season I am going to quote this from someone on another board



> ust to put things in perspective:
> 
> Pace of the 06-07 Suns: 95.9
> Pace of the 86-87 Lakers: 101.6
> ...


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Lebbron said:


> You are misinterpreting the poll. 96.4% said Kidd wasn't better than Nash, not 96.4% saying Kidd "isn't even close".
> 
> This argument isn't going anywhere so my last statement: IMO you switch Paul and Nash, and the Suns remain contenders and their wins do not go down much.


96.4% to 3.6% doesn't mean that it isn't close that GMs think that Nash is the best PG in the league? I think you are misinterpreting how I interpreted the survey.

Switching Paul on to the Suns is a speculation argument which has no factual basis. Hell put Bird on the Bulls then and who is MJ?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Nash is still the better player at this point. He might be the best shooter in the league, and he's still better than Paul at everything.


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## <SunsFan> (Dec 10, 2006)

Wow...This thread is sad


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> Amare an all-star? I swear that you were the one who repeatedly proclaimed Amare was "done". Interesting change in view.


When did I say Amare is an all-star this year? I was talking about Nash's first MVP year when Amare clearly was an all-star, and you Suns fans wanted to make Amare into Duncan's equal while at the same time giving full credit to Nash for making him into that player. Amare is clearly not an all-star this year. 



Card Trader said:


> Sir Patchwork flip flops in his arguments more than a fish out of water.....he's all over the place!


I haven't once. You just aren't reading straight because you can't get the tears out of your eyes. Go clean up and we can talk like adults if you'd like, or you can keep resorting to your little ad hominem tactics like you always do because you have no argument for anything except crying about how anyone who disagrees with you is a hater. Bring something a little more thought out than that if you plan on being taken serious.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> When did I say Amare is an all-star this year? I was talking about Nash's first MVP year when Amare clearly was an all-star, and you Suns fans wanted to make Amare into Duncan's equal while at the same time giving full credit to Nash for making him into that player. Amare is clearly not an all-star this year.


"You Suns fans"? Way to generalize an entire fanbase. I don't think any Suns fans, and I mean ANY, gave Nash credit for making Amare an all-star. Amare is an amazing talent regardless of who and where he plays. Maybe you're confused with some Suns fans who have said Nash makes his teammates better. But all that means is Nash makes it easier for his teammates compared to other PG's because of his court vision and passing skills. Just because you choose to interpret that as Nash makes players all-stars doesn't make it so. It just reveals your agenda to make Suns fans into blind, irrational posters.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> I don't think any Suns fans, and I mean ANY, gave Nash credit for making Amare an all-star.


Is that really the case though? Whenever it's brought up that Nash has "amazing talent regardless of where they play" playing alongside him, those guys (Amare, Marion, Diaw, Barbosa, Johnson, Bell and all the players who Nash has played with in the past 2+ years with the Suns) get downgraded by _some_ Suns fans (and also other non-Suns fans) as being products of Nash. Why is that?


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Is that really the case though? Whenever it's brought up that Nash has "amazing talent regardless of where they play" playing alongside him, those guys (Amare, Marion, Diaw, Barbosa, Johnson, Bell and all the players who Nash has played with in the past 2+ years with the Suns) get downgraded by _some_ Suns fans (and also other non-Suns fans) as being products of Nash. Why is that?


I like how you used my quote about Amare "being an amazing talent regardless of where he plays" and used it for every player on the Suns. No one is saying any of these players are a product on Nash. What people are saying is that alot these players benefit playing in the Phoenix system. Nash runs the show so naturally he is going to get some recognition. That doesn't mean he makes players all-stars, or that players are a product of Nash's greatness. 


By the way, here's a reminder of what Nash is doing this year:

*21 PPG, 11.7APG, .530 FG%, .510 3P%, and .900 FT%.*

Why people would take Paul over him at this point is beyond me.


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Is that really the case though? Whenever it's brought up that Nash has "amazing talent regardless of where they play" playing alongside him, those guys (Amare, Marion, Diaw, Barbosa, Johnson, Bell and all the players who Nash has played with in the past 2+ years with the Suns) get downgraded by _some_ Suns fans (and also other non-Suns fans) as being products of Nash. Why is that?


If you can stop tooting your Chris Paul fan club trumpet long enough to look at what Nash is doing this year...you might enjoy it. He is having the best season of his 2 time MVP career.

Stop the hate, just enjoy it!

Yeah, the Suns have talent....but those guys don't make Nash's shots go in, especially in the clutch.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Nash will be better until he retires.

Paul is a tremendous talent, but he is more of a Kidd type player than Nash. If you look at Kidd's second year numbers and Paul's, you'll see that they are very similar

Kidd:
<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" bordercolor="#cccccc" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr class="title"><td class="year">Year</td> <td class="team">Team</td> <td>G</td> <td>GS</td> <td>MPG</td> <td>FG%</td> <td>3p%</td> <td>FT%</td> <td>OFF</td> <td>DEF</td> <td>RPG</td> <td>APG</td> <td>SPG</td> <td>BPG</td> <td>TO</td> <td>PF</td> <td>PPG</td></tr></tbody> </table> 
<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" bordercolor="#cccccc" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td class="yr">95-96</td> <td class="tm">DAL</td> <td>81</td> <td>81</td> <td>37.5</td> <td>.381</td> <td>.336</td> <td>.692</td> <td>2.5</td> <td>4.3</td> <td>6.8</td> <td>9.7</td> <td>2.2</td> <td>0.3</td> <td>4.05</td> <td>1.90</td> <td>16.6</td></tr></tbody> </table> 
Paul
<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" bordercolor="#cccccc" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr class="title"><td class="year">Year</td> <td class="team">Team</td> <td>G</td> <td>GS</td> <td>MPG</td> <td>FG%</td> <td>3p%</td> <td>FT%</td> <td>OFF</td> <td>DEF</td> <td>RPG</td> <td>APG</td> <td>SPG</td> <td>BPG</td> <td>TO</td> <td>PF</td> <td>PPG</td></tr></tbody> </table> <table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" bordercolor="#cccccc" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td class="yr">06-07</td> <td class="tm">NOK</td> <td>18</td> <td>18</td> <td>37.1</td> <td>.462</td> <td>.227</td> <td>.789</td> <td>1.2</td> <td>3.2</td> <td>4.4</td> <td>9.1</td> <td>2.2</td> <td>0.1</td> <td>3.33</td> <td>2.30</td> <td>18.6</td></tr></tbody> </table>


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> I like how you used my quote about Amare "being an amazing talent regardless of where he plays" and used it for every player on the Suns. No one is saying any of these players are a product on Nash. What people are saying is that alot these players benefit playing in the Phoenix system. Nash runs the show so naturally he is going to get some recognition. That doesn't mean he makes players all-stars, or that players are a product of Nash's greatness.


I agree that players benefit playing in the Pheonix system, but I think that includes Nash, it's not because of Nash. Nash without great finishers will not be as highly regarded (see Dallas), just as Amare and Marion aren't as highly regarded without a great passing guard like Nash. It's a perfect fit that makes _everybody_ better in the system. That's why the Suns win a lot of games. 



Card Trader said:


> If you can stop tooting your Chris Paul fan club trumpet long enough to look at what Nash is doing this year...you might enjoy it. He is having the best season of his 2 time MVP career.
> 
> Stop the hate, just enjoy it!


If you can stop tooting your Steve Nash fan club trumpet long enough to look at what Paul is doing this year...you might enjoy it. He is having a season comparable to the soon-to-be 3-time MVP Steve Nash. 

Stop the hate, just enjoy it!


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I agree that players benefit playing in the Pheonix system, but I think that includes Nash, it's not because of Nash. Nash without great finishers will not be as highly regarded (see Dallas), just as Amare and Marion aren't as highly regarded without a great passing guard like Nash. It's a perfect fit that makes _everybody_ better in the system. That's why the Suns win a lot of games.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you now agree with me that Nash is going to win his third straight MVP?


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

no way nash wins it 3 years in a row, even if he is better this year.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

I was with you guys. I didn't think he should've won last yr's. But even if he deserves it more this yr, he won't get it. 

Few guys who deserved it, in the past didn't get it, and they may view it as since he got it last yr, he shouldn't this yr.

If this all makes sense haha.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I agree that players benefit playing in the Pheonix system, but I think that includes Nash, it's not because of Nash. Nash without great finishers will not be as highly regarded (see Dallas), just as Amare and Marion aren't as highly regarded without a great passing guard like Nash. It's a perfect fit that makes _everybody_ better in the system. That's why the Suns win a lot of games.


That obviously goes without saying. Great passers are helped by great scorers, just as great scorers are helped by great passers. Nash happens to be a great passer and scorer at this point and is going to lead his team to a top 3 spot in the West for the 3rd straight year.

That's why he's in the MVP consideration again..and deservedly so.

BTW, Nash had great finishers in Dallas. Perhaps you should consider some other factors for Nash's statistical improvements: 

1. Going to Phoenix gave him the chance to be the number one guy on the team. In Dallas he shared the spotlight with Dirk and Finley.

2. His game has actually improved. His shot has become even more deadly making him a more efficient scorer.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

HKF said:


> So you now agree with me that Nash is going to win his third straight MVP?


He won't win again so take a deep breath and relax.


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## Gundungurra81 (Nov 25, 2006)

Steve Nash, no contest man


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

Right now, Paul isn't even good enough to lick Nash's boots(snickers).
Paul is one of the most over-rated nba player.


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Is that really the case though? Whenever it's brought up that Nash has "amazing talent regardless of where they play" playing alongside him, those guys (Amare, Marion, Diaw, Barbosa, Johnson, Bell and all the players who Nash has played with in the past 2+ years with the Suns) get downgraded by _some_ Suns fans (and also other non-Suns fans) as being products of Nash. Why is that?



Plenty of teams have great talent and all star calliber players. The Suns without Nash are no different by those means... but it takes a special player to bring these guys together and will them to victory night after night. It's not as if Tim Duncan won two MVP's by numbers alone.. I mean come on.


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## Minstral (Dec 9, 2006)

So apparently there are 6 Nash haters who voted, because logically it doesn't make sense to vote for Paul; at least at this point.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Why do the stupid comparisions always have to go 5 pages? C'mon.


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

Wow, why compare when Nash is 6-2 winners over Paul for stats. And RPG isn't even important for PGs.


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## Kekai (Jan 12, 2005)

Steve Nash hands down is the better player right now, in a few years Chris Paul will be taking over that crown though. Paul is an awesome player and is one hell of an exciting player to watch. Nash is an old vet that has a higher basketball IQ than paul right now and does pretty much everything better. Maybe the suns should try to trade for chris paul..hmm ;-)


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Dissonance19 said:


> I was with you guys. I didn't think he should've won last yr's. But even if he deserves it more this yr, he won't get it.
> 
> Few guys who deserved it, in the past didn't get it, and they may view it as since he got it last yr, he shouldn't this yr.
> 
> If this all makes sense haha.


See, this type of logic is where I run into problems. Everyone is talking about NASH being the MVP, no one else is even conisdered worthy right now. However, everyone is saying, "No, he can't get it again" but the only person that is being talked about is Nash! KG is having a stellar year, so is Duncan, but no one is talking about them!

I think if this continues, Nash will 3peat the MVP award


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HKF said:


> So you now agree with me that Nash is going to win his third straight MVP?


At this point, yes. The Suns are rolling again, and Nash is having a better year than last year.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

KidCanada said:


> That obviously goes without saying. Great passers are helped by great scorers, just as great scorers are helped by great passers.


Meh.

Great passers do much more helpin' than great scorers. When was the last time you've seen a great scorer consistently score out of bad passes? And how often a scrub gets an easy 2 being spoonfed by a great passer?

This thread is a joke.

Steve Nash is the best PG in the NBA, and there's not really major competition for the spot.


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