# Winners and Losers of the 2004 NBA Draft



## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

*Best and Worst picks in draft*

The steals in the draft IMO:

Jameer Nelson @ 20. Could be as good as any PG taken. Completely indefensibly the teams that passed him. Telfair went 13, has bust potential, and honestly, can't hope to ever get any better than Nelson is now. :nonono:

Ramos @ 33. Could EASILY be the best centre in the entire draft. Runs extremely well for a guy 7-3, jumps better than Podkolzine, has soft hands. Sure, he has bust potential, but EVERY centre in this draft has bust potential...

Josh Smith @ 17. I think his rawness has been overstated. His athleticism is pretty much without peer. Absolute worst case for him is Darius Miles.

The worst picks:

Robert Swift @ 12. Total Stretch. A coordinated and fundamentally sound 7-footer evaluated largely against high school competition consisting of fat kids, 6-6 centers, and oafs.

I think he may be a washout.

Rafael Araugo @ 8. Best case he will be a limited offensive player who can box out on the defensive boards. Worst case he is just too slow for the NBA. A man nearly 24 playing against 19 year-olds, 18ppg and 10rpg in a weakish conference is not inspiring. Can't jump. Will have the lowest shot blocks per 48m of any NBA center. Does not seem an upgrade to Mengke Bateer who couldn't get off the bench. Slow feet and aggressiveness, like Bateer, suggest a foul machine. Certainly can't touch Robert Archibald's defence.

Centers taken 5-15 almost never pan out. Let's see this year...


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

I totally agree that Robert Swift @ 12and Rafael Araugo at 8 were awful picks. I mean every year the center move up the draft for no reason. 

And what were the raptors thinking about. I mean really, they could have traded down with utal and still gotten Araugo and 14. and Swift at 12 wow. It will be years before he can start. 

david


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

Cleavland did terribly when its known they need a PG

Tremendous draft, by Chicago and Portland


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## Jockrider (Jun 25, 2003)

Biggest steal is Snyder at 16. Locked down Luke Jackson in workouts. Who went at 10.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

I think a huge winner could be Dallas if this puts them over the top, and gives them enough to deal for Shaquille O'Neal. They gave up a future 1st and Antawn Jamison, and came out with Jerry Stackhouse, Christian Laettner, Devin Harris and Pavel Podkolzine. Great dealing by Mark Cuban, he really wants Shaq and I think he's going to get him.


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## JGKoblenz (Jul 19, 2002)

Steal: Anderson Varejão at 30.


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## swoosh37 (Jun 12, 2004)

*Kings*

I think the kings had a good draft considering the low picks that they had to work with Martin and Minard will be great role players to come off the bench...


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> Cleavland did terribly when its known they need a PG


100% disagree.

Cleveland HAS a starting and effective pg in Jeff McInnis... he helped turn their season around. Guess you didn't know that.

They have weak Ira Newble at sf. Jackson won't start right away, but his strength is Cavs weakness... 3 pt range. By the end of the season, either Sasha or Jackson will be starting sf.

They will sign a BACK-UP pg in free agency, since BACK-UP pg Kevin Ollie was ineffective. Also, Paxson still has hope that Wagner can play point (I don't think he is capable.)


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## Jmonty580 (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: Kings*



> Originally posted by <b>swoosh37</b>!
> I think the kings had a good draft considering the low picks that they had to work with Martin and Minard will be great role players to come off the bench...


You cant sleep on a sharp shooter. YOu guys have enough good shooters already, if this kid is as good a shooter as he appears to be then you guy made a good choice in Kevin Martin.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Robert Swift was a freaking steal at 12. Toronto should have selcted him at 8.


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## Charlotte_______ (May 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jockrider</b>!
> Biggest steal is Snyder at 16. Locked down Luke Jackson in workouts. Who went at 10.


Bernard Robinson(Charlotte's 2nd round choice) did the same making it to the NIT. Sorry Im probably bragging.

 

WE GOT OKAFOR!!!


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Winners-
Mavericks
Bobcats

Losers-
Sonics
Nets


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## Starks (Feb 22, 2004)

Dallas, Utah, and Cleveland did well. 

I also liked Chicago and Indy's choices. Harrison has the talent and could become a good player. Carlisle should help him. 

The Spurs got a steal in Sato. I can't believe he fell so far and hope he makes the team.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Winners and Losers of the 2004 NBA Draft*



> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> 
> 
> 100% disagree.
> ...


I will 100% disagree with you. If you think that Jeff Mcinnis is the answer to Cleavlands troubles then Mongolmike you are sadly mistaken. Im a Mcinnis fan and it was seen that when he went down so did your ball club and yes I did know that he was effective. Keyword being effective. 

Jammer is a much better shooter now than Mcinnis will ever be and call me when he plays some defense. 

That said Dajuan who I have watched and played with on occasion since he was in 6th grade is never going to be an "effective" PG. Its not in him Period. What was the purpose of draftin Jackson when you had just traded for Sasha.


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## Ryoga (Aug 31, 2002)

I still think that the winners and the losers of a draft will come out in time, there's no way to tell it now.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

The biggest steal was Okafor. The next biggest steal was Al Jefferson at #15, who is a far better player than either Swift or Araujo. Not will be--- he is better today.

Nelson should have gone higher. Gordon and Harris went far too high, although I think they will both be decent players.

Both Smiths will be busts. Tony Allen and Kevin Martin are sleepers who will make teams regret having passed on them.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> Robert Swift was a freaking steal at 12. Toronto should have selcted him at 8.


I just dont see what others see in Swift. I guess we'll have to see, but I dont ever see Swift turning into what some people see him turning into.


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## Takeit2dahouse00 (Jun 12, 2002)

Worst pick was Rafael Araujo at 8! 

WOW..


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Winners and Losers of the 2004 NBA Draft*



> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> I will 100% disagree with you. If you think that Jeff Mcinnis is the answer to Cleavlands troubles then Mongolmike you are sadly mistaken. Im a Mcinnis fan and it was seen that when he went down so did your ball club and yes I did know that he was effective. Keyword being effective.


I will also have to disagree with you Beez 100%. The biggest need for the Cavaliers was at the 3. One who could shoot with range. I think that they Cavaliers filled that with the drafting of Jackson. McInnis played very well for the Cavs last year but the team had a hole at the 3 since Williams was not going to be retained. In addition, with Kapono being taken by Charlotte that left the Cavaliers in dire need of a 3 (in fact I would have argued that they needed 2). 

By the way Beez, why is it that you can't seem to spell Cleveland correctly?


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Based on speculation, I would say that Dallas and Orlando came out best in this draft. I mean really, Orlando got the first pick and a projected top 10 lottery pick. How much better can you get? Dallas is already a good team, and they got a great young PG with Devin Harris and an actual center with Podkolzine.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Winners and Losers of the 2004 NBA Draft*



> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> 
> 
> I will also have to disagree with you Beez 100%. The biggest need for the Cavaliers was at the 3. One who could shoot with range. I think that they Cavaliers filled that with the drafting of Jackson. McInnis played very well for the Cavs last year but the team had a hole at the 3 since Williams was not going to be retained. In addition, with Kapono being taken by Charlotte that left the Cavaliers in dire need of a 3 (in fact I would have argued that they needed 2).
> ...


Once again I will counter with, what was the purpose of trading for Sasha when you most likely will resign ERic Williams. Also you have to forgive me on the Cleveland thing. I used to live in Cincinatti and hated going there. I was young:sigh:


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

I agree with BEEZ. Jeff McInnis is a serviceable point guard at best and he can't play defense which is something Cleveland desperately needs.

Luke Jackson is a horrible defender too. Cleveland won't be any good as long as every single one of their starters is a bad defender.

Not drafting a PG because you're "all set" at PG with Jeff McInnis reminds me of what Cleveland did in 1999, they drafted Trajan Langdon over small forwards Corey Maggette and Ron Artest because they were "all set" at SF with Cedric Henderson. Horrible.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

I actually really liked the Raps pickin Araujo w #8 for a few reasons

1) It filled a need first and foremost. In a conference where Jamaal Magloire makes the allstar team, its was the most important area to address.

2) Araujo brings something to the table that is sooo desperately desired which is toughness and presence. Chances are with a draft like this one you're not gonna get a superstar at #8. If he can contribute 10 ppg and 10rpg while beating on the opposing frontcourt the whole game then that will go a LONG way. By no means am i saying he is comparable to B. Wallace, but you can see having a little muscle inside helps alot.

3) When you are coming off a draft where you nailed a #4 pick (Bosh) and you still have your superstar (VC) its better to fill roles. Is this team marginally worse than the Celtics right now? Not really. How much will a guy who can help right away pay off during a playoff stretch? This is the East, remember that the last 4 playoff spots are all iffy. The magic IMO are the losers of this draft because even if they lost TMac, you take Okafor, land Francis/Mobley, and the roster looks like the 6th best team in the east.  But now Orlando will likely be picking top 5 again next season.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

> I agree with BEEZ. Jeff McInnis is a serviceable point guard at best and he can't play defense which is something Cleveland desperately needs.
> 
> Luke Jackson is a horrible defender too. Cleveland won't be any good as long as every single one of their starters is a bad defender.
> 
> Not drafting a PG because you're "all set" at PG with Jeff McInnis reminds me of what Cleveland did in 1999, they drafted Trajan Langdon over small forwards Corey Maggette and Ron Artest because they were "all set" at SF with Cedric Henderson. Horrible.


Who would you rather have drafted? Nelson? When you still have Wagner on the roster?? Arent they the same player? And since you already have Lebron how important is the PG position anyway?


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> 
> Who would you rather have drafted? Nelson? When you still have Wagner on the roster?? Arent they the same player? And since you already have Lebron how important is the PG position anyway?


I wonder how many people watch players before they just start throwing out names to compare them to. Wagner and Nelson are nothing alike. Obviously its very important if they went in a free fall at the end of the season the way they did because of the shaky PG play


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## pacersrule31 (Mar 24, 2004)

Winners: 
*1. Chicago-* They got the best draft. Gordon really reminds me a lot of Dwyane Wade. They both can play the point, but are excellent scorers. But Gordon has more range. I think he'll make as big an impact next year as Wade. Deng at #7 is great. They really need a SF and he was the best in the draft. Getting Duhon for a backup wasnt bad either.
*2. Charlotte-* They only got 1 good player, but he's the best player in the draft and he's at 2. What a way to start off a franchise. He gives them a winner, a good citizen, a great defensive presence for year's to come, a good scorer(he will improve). I mean, he's like Ben Wallace w/ offense. Great pick, and good luck. They'll need it for the first few years.
*3. Boston-* Jefferson at #15 is a great pick. I think he'll be the 2nd-best HSer in this draft to Howard. He gives the Celts an inside presence w/ a big body, and a good rebounder. Will take a few years, but they're not going anywhere soon. West is a good pick. He gives them another 3-pt. threat, and anotehr guard, which they're weak at. Their best pick was Allen. I think he's going to be a very good player. Sleeper of the draft. He gives them a physical guard who's a pretty good scorer too. Great draft by the Celts.

Losers: 
*1. Seattle-* I think some HSers will be good, but please. Swift will be a huge bust. I haven't seen anything in him that makes me think he'll be good. Big bust.
*2. Atlanta-* The worst team in the NBA will stay that way after this draft. I don't see that much from Childress. He reminds me too much of Jared Jeffries. Josh Smith will be the biggest bust in the draft. An athlete, but not a basketball player. Like Bilas said, not a good shooter, not much ball-handling, not very smart, just an athlete. At least Atlanta's consistent every year.
*3. Portland-* I don't know much about the 2 foreigners they picked, besides the fact that there were better guys available. But please, Telfair over Nelson???!!! How can u possibly take an unproven HSer whose stock has DROPPED over a 4-year player who was the College Player of the Year???!!! God, please help the Blazers management.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

The Cavs will not resign Williams. He's been out of the plan ever since the end of the season. 2 reasons, he wants starters money and he really is not starter material and he played very poorly towards the end of the season last year. I don't think that anyone has said that the Cavs are set at the point guard position either. If you saw them play last year when McInnis went down you'd know that they don't have the answer on the squad at present, but they did need to upgrade the 3 position right now and I think they've done that. I think that they will attempt to address backup point guard with a free agent.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

I have to agree with Beez here. Here's how the 2/3 is going to look like...

2: LBJ, Wagner, Brown
3: Sasha/Luke, Newble

That's a crowded wing. Meanwhile, remind me again, whose backing up McInnis? Is it that overpaid Kevin Ollie back there or is LBJ going to slid away from his "better position" as Silas has determined. Don't point to the FA's because it's never a given if you sign them or not and if you don't, I think we'll see McInnis playing a lot of minutes and the Cavs doing poorly without him on the floor.

It didn't matter if Williams would be resigned or not, or if Kapono wasn't taken, the bottom line is that they have a crowded wing and one of the two defensive stoppers should get some playtime for that exact reason.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, Nailon could come back.


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## Eagles in 2003 (Jul 18, 2002)

Alot of you people like to rip on Josh Smith, saying hes got bust written all over him or that his basketball skills are minimal at best. I have to disagree, your not a top 5 high school player or 1st round draft pick outta high school without talent. The kid is a player, they way everyone talks about him, he should stick to dunk contests. Last time i checked he didnt dunk his way to around 23 points a game.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> I just dont see what others see in Swift. I guess we'll have to see, but I dont ever see Swift turning into what some people see him turning into.


The absolute best case scenario for Swift is that he is able to reach the Chris Kaman level in 3 or 4 years, just before his contract expires and he becomes an unrestricted free agent.

The rest of the league thanks the Seattle Supersonics for spending 8 millions dollars of their money to develop a player for them.


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## Jockrider (Jun 25, 2003)

Worst draft:Boston-3 picks and all they got was a young kid with weight problems and a couple of NBDL players. Of course the last 2 picks were not much to work with, but they needed more. Ainge is on the ropes now.

Best draft:Utah-2 potential ROY's. Of course I am a little biased, but they did really well.


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## ivo_krka (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> Cleavland did terribly when its known they need a PG


I think they had a good trade. They got a SG/SF they really need. You're forgetting McInnis is on the team and they would've reached the Playoffs if he managed to stay healthy. On the other hand they didn't have a good player (Kedrick Brown is certainly not a good player) to start alongside LeBron at SG,SF. And LeBron can ocasionally cover PG position.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Winners and Losers of the 2004 NBA Draft*



> Originally posted by <b>ivo_krka</b>!
> 
> 
> I think they had a good trade. They got a SG/SF they really need. You're forgetting McInnis is on the team and they would've reached the Playoffs if he managed to stay healthy. On the other hand they didn't have a good player (Kedrick Brown is certainly not a good player) to start alongside LeBron at SG,SF. And LeBron can ocasionally cover PG position.


Read the whole thread and see my reasons to what you just said, other posters had input to it as well


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> But please, Telfair over Nelson???!!! How can u possibly take an unproven HSer whose stock has DROPPED over a 4-year player who was the College Player of the Year???!!! God, please help the Blazers management.


Give me a break..... 

I guess that the management of the 18? other teams that passed on Nelson, and DEN the team that drafted and then TRADED his rights for a future pick, need help as well. 

It wasn't just POR who passed on Nelson, it was over HALF THE LEAGUE that passed on him. When Telfair is a better player than Nelson (and he will be), maybe then you will see why POR took him at #13.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> 
> 
> Give me a break.....
> ...


At this point everything is speculation but the fact of the matter is that Nelson is the better player now. Also with your statement about who drafted him. If you are a team thats set at PG do you take another?? Also to say or even imply this is as good as Nelson is going to get is ridculous so that is something that needs to be thrown out the window.


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## Kaas (Apr 8, 2003)

The Jazz and the Bulls had the best drafts. When you can get two starters for your team (Bulls) or a starter and a 6th man (Jazz) in the middle of the 1st, you did a damn good job.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Telfair > Nelson That is all that really needs to be said. The proof will come to pass on the NBA courts, but I don't have any doubts, do Nelson fans?



They should....


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## jdg (Jun 13, 2003)

For all those saying McInnis is just an effective PG and nothing more, you need to think about it. Sure they are not strong at the 1, but the Lakers have never been really strong at point until Payton showed up. With guys with LeBron and Kobe, you can afford to have less at the point. These guys can do their SG duties while also bringing the ball up the floor when needed.

Eventually, the Cavs need to fill the PG spot better. But at #10, I would take Jackson over any of the PG's available. Free agency is their best bet for a PG this year.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> I think a huge winner could be Dallas if this puts them over the top, and gives them enough to deal for Shaquille O'Neal. They gave up a future 1st and Antawn Jamison, and came out with Jerry Stackhouse, Christian Laettner, Devin Harris and Pavel Podkolzine. Great dealing by Mark Cuban, he really wants Shaq and I think he's going to get him.


In your pipe dreams LA isn't gonna accept Pavel ,Nash and some crap for Shaq. Lakers want Dirk and they aren't gonna budge, Dallas wants to keep Dirk so a trade isn't gonna happen unless someone budges. 

Shaq is untradeable.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> Cleavland did terribly when its known they need a PG


They didn't need a PG as badly as they needed outside shooting. Luke Jackson was the perfect pick for them. They were the worst outside shooting team in the league last year, and it didn't help that they lost Kapono. Jeff McInnis will do well again at PG for them this season. In Summer League, they are going to try out Dajuan Wagner at PG, and if he doesn't do well, they will look to trade him elsewhere.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> Telfair > Nelson That is all that really needs to be said. The proof will come to pass on the NBA courts, but I don't have any doubts, do Nelson fans?
> 
> 
> ...


I have serious doubts that Telfair will be better than Nelson. There is no guarantee that Telfair could have gone to college and had a career on par with Nelson, let alone the NBA.

Telfair is purely a name right now. He has got a whole lot to prove.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> Telfair is purely a name right now. He has got a whole lot to prove.


As does Nelson...as do ALL rookies. This isn't high school OR college anymore...

It will be interesting to watch the progression of both of them. But Telfair has one thing that Nelson does not IMO, the benefit of his AGE.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

The Raptors came out with the best center in the draft (unless you count okafor) at the 8th pick. that's a steal in my book. he's going to be starting for them next season. how often do you get a rookie center that can start without a top 5 pick? he's strong, has great hands (catching, passing, and shooting), and moves better than most centers 30 lbs lighter than him. Don't write the guy off because he's not a dunker, that certainly hasn't stopped Brad Miller from being an effective NBA center.


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## PoorPoorSonics (Mar 20, 2004)

Ridiculous.

Sounds like you should all be GMs because you obviously know more than them and their scouts.

For the Celtic fan poster...yes Swift is a bust too bad Boston wanted him, and Jefferson was their second option.

If Swift is such a bust why is Seattle getting calls from teams wanting to trade for him? You must know more than those teams' GMs too.

Stop posting and sign a contract with an NBA team your talent is wasting away here.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Winners and Losers of the 2004 NBA Draft*



> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> 
> 
> They didn't need a PG as badly as they needed outside shooting. Luke Jackson was the perfect pick for them. They were the worst outside shooting team in the league last year, and it didn't help that they lost Kapono. Jeff McInnis will do well again at PG for them this season. In Summer League, they are going to try out Dajuan Wagner at PG, and if he doesn't do well, they will look to trade him elsewhere.


umm when Mcinnis went down they lost like 10 in a row. I know they needed outside shooting thats why they traded for Sasha. NO? Wags is and will not be a point, its just not going to happen


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## budselig (Jun 18, 2004)

Luke Jackson was a very solid pick for Cleveland. He's better than Nelson. He's tall and he's better at shooting the basketball and he's better at sports. They needed a shooter: the team was last both in 3 pointers made and 3 point percentage last season. Thats pathetic. Jackson is taller and a better shooter. He will get his shot off fine in the NBA while Nelson could potentially have trouble doing so. Luke Jackson would start on most teams in the NBA right now. Jameer Nelson wouldn't. Accept that and move on. Just because Nelson is a point guard and just because he's colored doesn't mean he deserves to be taken over Luke Jackson.


I have to say that I've seen McInnis a bunch, though not with Cleveland, and I am not a fan. His style of play just seems a bit out of control. He pushes the ball up full speed seemingly all the time and takes ill-advised floaters. Now, this may be different on Cleveland. I don't know. Maybe he has slowed it down. Not having a pure pg, though, isn't such a bad thing. If McInnis is an excellent defender and fits in their system that could be fine.


Robert Swift...obviously I haven't seen this guy play. But I sort of have to agree with other posters here. How good can this guy possibly be? He's an enormous white guy. He's not "athletic." I saw the McDonalds game. He's a huge white guy. Thats not "athletic" in NBA terms, its "athletic" in high school terms. Perhaps he's a legit NBA player, I certainly am not prepared to say that he isn't. But how many huge doofy white centers are genuinely good players? Not many. So does he have a shot at being one? Maybe, but if so, its probably very slim. Carry on, Sonics fans, carry on.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>budselig</b>!
> Luke Jackson was a very solid pick for Cleveland. He's better than Nelson. He's tall and he's better at shooting the basketball and he's better at sports. They needed a shooter: the team was last both in 3 pointers made and 3 point percentage last season. Thats pathetic. Jackson is taller and a better shooter. He will get his shot off fine in the NBA while Nelson could potentially have trouble doing so. Luke Jackson would start on most teams in the NBA right now. Jameer Nelson wouldn't. Accept that and move on. Just because Nelson is a point guard and just because he's* colored* doesn't mean he deserves to be taken over Luke Jackson.


What does that have to do with anything. Please keep your racially insensitive comments to yourself.

Beez


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## PoorPoorSonics (Mar 20, 2004)

Did you watch the McDonalds game? Swift showed great footwork and positioning. Looks like he has great potential to me...I didnt know that because he was white meant he was less athletic than Jefferson's slow ***.


But, only time will tell....Swift>>>Jefferson.


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## budselig (Jun 18, 2004)

Yea, he looked solid, and I don't think he's necessarily a worse pick than Jefferson. Maybe he can be a decent starter in the league as far as centers go, how should I know, right? It just seems hard to believe that this guy will become a legitimately <i>good</i> player, rather than a potential Todd McCulloch.


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