# Bad Pick



## fuzzybearpup (May 20, 2004)

I don't know how much of the Cavs games everyone here has watched this past year, or how much college basketball everyone has watched, or how good of talent evaluators everyone here is. I consider myself the basketball equivalent of a young Mel Kiper Jr. (NFL draft guru for those of you unfamiliar) I watch more basketball pro and college than any normal person should and am always very good at projecting how players will be for the teams that drafted them. With that said I am very afraid the Cavs will draft Ben Gordon. He is an unproven point guard who has a scorer's mentality. I shouldn't need to show the parallel between him and Dajaun Wagner. Dajaun would be fine if he was the starting SG with LeBron at the starting PG but that isn't going to happen. If the Cavs are sold on taking a backup point to groom when McInnis leaves I pray that it is not Gordon. I just don't think he will be a great PG in the NBA. At best some team will play him out of position at PG like teams are doing with Arenas, Terry, and Wade. But all those teams wish they could play those guys at the 2 instead. Does anyone else share my feelings on the fact that the Cavs should not draft Ben Gordon?


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

I love Gordon's scoring ability but to be honest, his passing has not impressed me much at all. I'd rather not see Gordon drafted. 

I'm in favor of the Cavaliers trading down (see details in "Draft question" thread). Instead of taking 1 point guard in the draft, trade down and still pick up your point guard while getting another player on the side.


----------



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fuzzybearpup</b>!
> I don't know how much of the Cavs games everyone here has watched this past year, or how much college basketball everyone has watched, or how good of talent evaluators everyone here is. I consider myself the basketball equivalent of a young Mel Kiper Jr. (NFL draft guru for those of you unfamiliar) I watch more basketball pro and college than any normal person should and am always very good at projecting how players will be for the teams that drafted them.


Do you know OZZY?

Are you in fact OZZY using a different name?

You consider yourself the equivalent of Mel Kiper... meaning you have large hair???? Interesting.

Being realitively new to these forums, how do we know you are a good evaluator? I saw your post about what players teams SHOULD pick.... and I can say that you put a lot of time and thought into it. Not sure I agree with your evaluations of talent tho.

In any case, welcome.... but I hope your seemingly arrogant introduction and self promotion doesn't set you up as another target to be shot down, irregardless of the quality of your posts.


----------



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fuzzybearpup</b>!
> Does anyone else share my feelings on the fact that the Cavs should not draft Ben Gordon?


Since you are new, I suggest you read some of the threads posted over the last 4 weeks in here, and you will get your answer about who and why most Cavs fans want them to take.


----------



## fuzzybearpup (May 20, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> I love Gordon's scoring ability but to be honest, his passing has not impressed me much at all. I'd rather not see Gordon drafted.
> 
> I'm in favor of the Cavaliers trading down (see details in "Draft question" thread). Instead of taking 1 point guard in the draft, trade down and still pick up your point guard while getting another player on the side.


I would be completely in favor of trading down to obtain more picks. This years draft is potentially deep but not top heavy. Extra picks in a deep draft gives you more assets.


----------



## fuzzybearpup (May 20, 2004)

*Re: Re: Bad Pick*



> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you know OZZY?
> ...


I am not OZZY. But I have read some of his posts and thought they were insightful. The Mel Kiper Jr. reference is pointing out the fact that I am following prospects progressions year round. Right after this draft I will look at next years (not like I havn't peeked at next years already). But I do have a nice head of hair in case you are wondering. Being new to the forums you don't know that I am a good evaluator of talent. Only I know that. But I think just because someone is new to a forum does not mean they know less, just they have been posting on the forum for a smaller amount of time. The previous post about who teams SHOULD pick was not necessarily an evaluation of talent. More of a look at what teams SHOULD do. For example many Wizards fans and mocks have them taking a swingman such as Iguodala, Childress, etc. which would be completely foolish. Taking the best player available is definately not always the best thing. When Haywood is your starting center with Laettner as the backup (with Etan Thomas possibly leaving even though he is a good backup but not a starter) you SHOULD roll the dice and take Pavel or another of the centers who may be risky but have a very high reward. If the Wizards draft Iguodala and he never develops into more than a decent bench player because of the presence of all the other swingmen eating into his playing time and Pavel goes on to average double didgets in points and rebounds with a couple blocks per game the Wizards front office should be tarred and feathered (not like they shouldn't already; just look at how the Wizards/Bullets have been mishandled). I wasn't trying to be arrogant, I'm sorry if it came off that way. I was just trying to let other die hard Cavs fans know that I am not some random scrub who only saw them play a handful of times this year.


----------



## fuzzybearpup (May 20, 2004)

*Re: Re: Bad Pick*



> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> 
> 
> Since you are new, I suggest you read some of the threads posted over the last 4 weeks in here, and you will get your answer about who and why most Cavs fans want them to take.


I have read them in the past and I know many other Cavs fans who are for or against just about every PG option in the draft as well as every SF option in the draft. Hell I even know some fans who insist on taking a big man because they fear Z will leave after this year. This post was to specifically gauge people's view on the Cavs taking Ben Gordon being a bad idea. I'm not saying he will be a bad player in the NBA. I'm just saying I would like to see them go in a different direction.


----------



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Bad Pick*



> Originally posted by <b>fuzzybearpup</b>!
> 
> 
> I have read them in the past and I know many other Cavs fans who are for or against just about every PG option in the draft as well as every SF option in the draft. Hell I even know some fans who insist on taking a big man because they fear Z will leave after this year. This post was to specifically gauge people's view on the Cavs taking Ben Gordon being a bad idea. I'm not saying he will be a bad player in the NBA. I'm just saying I would like to see them go in a different direction.


Fair enough. 

I happen to agree with you that Gordon is not a good fit for Clev, and I feel that a new BACK-UP point guard, should not be this team's draft priority. I stress "back-up" because it is pretty clear that Silas likes what McInnis brings as a starter, and that SF is a larger hole for the team than a back-up pg. 

I think the team will fill both needs... one thru the draft, one thru either a deal with the Bobcats or an outright trade. We also have the exemption monies that could be used for a back-up veteran pg, or..... 

The point I haven't heard anyone talking about is... what will happen to Ollie? I can't see us holding 3 point guards (McInnis, Ollie, and the new back-up pg), and Wagner too... which is why I think we will work something out with Char. It might include them taking Ollie off our hands in the expansion draft, then we later trade them Wags for doing so, and in return we get an unprotected veteran that they picked in the expansion draft at our request. (This also allows us to keep Kapono.)


----------



## Pure Scorer (Jul 20, 2002)

Dajuan Wagner has the ability to be a much better player than Ben Gordon, and even at this point I would still take Wagner over Gordon.


----------



## Cavs Central (Jun 15, 2004)

From what I am hearing, Ollie is as good as gone. He is unprotected, has a team option after the 2nd year of his contract, and we have been in talks with the Bobcats about trading Ollie outight to them.

To me James is best at the small forward where he can handle the rock, slash, and score.

The 2 spot has been getting smaller over the last 7 years or so, meaning if you can play basketball and make an impact, that you can make up for your lack of size. Remember that McInnis has the ability to defend most 2 guards in the league.

To me, Gordon has much better handles than Wagner, a better shot, and more athletic ability. I still don't see Gordon slipping to the 10 spot regardless anyway, but would not reject to having him here. James need players like Gordon who can run and finish (helps when you can stroke it like BG too)

PS: Many look at Mel Kiper as an A-Hole.


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

The most recent projections on nbadraft.net has Gordon being taken 6th. The bluffs must be tailing off because Gordon is back in the top 8 again.


----------



## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fuzzybearpup</b>!
> I don't know how much of the Cavs games everyone here has watched this past year, or how much college basketball everyone has watched, or how good of talent evaluators everyone here is. I consider myself the basketball equivalent of a young Mel Kiper Jr. (NFL draft guru for those of you unfamiliar) I watch more basketball pro and college than any normal person should and am always very good at projecting how players will be for the teams that drafted them. With that said I am very afraid the Cavs will draft Ben Gordon. He is an unproven point guard who has a scorer's mentality. I shouldn't need to show the parallel between him and Dajaun Wagner. Dajaun would be fine if he was the starting SG with LeBron at the starting PG but that isn't going to happen. If the Cavs are sold on taking a backup point to groom when McInnis leaves I pray that it is not Gordon. I just don't think he will be a great PG in the NBA. At best some team will play him out of position at PG like teams are doing with Arenas, Terry, and Wade. But all those teams wish they could play those guys at the 2 instead. Does anyone else share my feelings on the fact that the Cavs should not draft Ben Gordon?


I do agree with this post. I also think wagners potential has been untapped yet. He can be very good. 

I dont like any of the point guard prospects actually. I guess Livingston is interesting. I think we should stick to trying to get a decent small forward who can shoot and play some D. 

OR we could also trade down, maybe for utahs 24th pick and harpring (who they might not resign). Especially if Telfaire is available. Utah will select a euro with their 14th pick, and having the 7th pick would be an absolute bonus for them.


----------



## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

I don't really advocate the Cavs taking Gordon. I think that he is a combo guard and really don't see him ever really being a good point guard. That being said the Cavaliers have actually had good experiences with players that were either sg or combo guards in college (Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Terrell Brandon). I am however leaning towards either a small forward or a backup big man.


----------



## fuzzybearpup (May 20, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Cavs Central</b>!
> From what I am hearing, Ollie is as good as gone. He is unprotected, has a team option after the 2nd year of his contract, and we have been in talks with the Bobcats about trading Ollie outight to them.
> 
> To me James is best at the small forward where he can handle the rock, slash, and score.
> ...


I would be very happy if the Cavs could entice Charlotte to take Ollie. He just doesn't fit well into how the Cavs want to play. LeBron would be a good 3, but that would take away from his height advantage at the 2 where he also plays well. The Cavs don't really have a need for players who can run and finish. Everyone was talking about all the highlight real plays that would come from LeBron, Miles, Ricky, and Dajaun playing together last year. And look where that got Ricky and Darius. Any young wing player in the league should be able to run and finish good enough. The Cavs need some tough nosed defenders and some people able to knock down the 3 ball. Mel Kiper Jr. is viewed as an A-Hole by some for usually being very harsh on teams who notoriously screw up in the draft. But there is a reason the Bengals havn't won in forever and Kiper Jr. is right more times than he is wrong.


----------



## Cavs Central (Jun 15, 2004)

James will play well wherever he plays. It's not like other teams were not putting their bedst defenders on him either, as Bron was getting doses of players like Ron Artest , Bruce Bowen, and Trenton Hassell on him night in and night out.

2 guard of at the 3, that will never change.


----------



## fuzzybearpup (May 20, 2004)

*Re: Re: Bad Pick*



> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> 
> 
> I do agree with this post. I also think wagners potential has been untapped yet. He can be very good.
> ...


I also think Wagner's potential has been untapped. He has gone into his first two seasons missing time because of the bladder infection/blood clot and then the knee problem last year. He needs a summer of being healthy. He also needs minutes and an opportunity to bomb away which unfortunately he won't get in Cleveland. I think trading him to Charlotte would give him a great opportunity to show what he can do, especially if he is paired with a big PG like Livingston. Many people don't realize that in his rookie year he averaged the 4th or 5th most points for rookies that year. Right up there with Yao, Amare, Caron Butler etc. He just needs an opportunity to show what he can do. I believe Dajaun is similar to Iverson. Dajaun does not have the quickness or toughness of AI, but I believe he is a bit bigger and stronger. Neither player is a great shooter percentage wise. But given volume shots they can score like crazy. I agree that we definately need a SF who can play D and hit the 3. I think Monya is the best defender who can hit the 3 from what I have heard. I am pretty sure Harpring is under contract for a couple more years for around 5 million per season. And Phoenix has the 7th pick, Cleveland has the 10th.


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fuzzybearpup</b>!
> 
> 
> I would be completely in favor of trading down to obtain more picks. This years draft is potentially deep but not top heavy. Extra picks in a deep draft gives you more assets.


Yes sir. Unless Cleveland insists on going for the all-or-nothing approach of swinging for a home run with their pick, I'd rather see the team go for 2 singles or 2 doubles (which equals 1 homer).

A little baseball in my thoughts but hey, that's exactly how I feel. 

All these rumors of "send Wagner and so-and-so for this and that." Man, just trade down and you can have your 2 picks, without having to change your team any.

It seems so simple, so logical to suggest that but it seems as if this thought hasn't crossed many fans' minds.


----------



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

I'm probably the main "trade Wagner" poster in here... I didn't like the pick when we took him, I don't think he can or ever will be able to hold AI's jock, I don't think he will be an effective STARTER for us EVER - not at SG and certainly not at PG. I don't even think he will be effective off the bench, mostly because he thinks he should be a starter and he is a terrible "tweener". In my opinion, that makes him a waste of a roster spot. Trade him for whatever we can get. It helps us, and it helps him. Let some other team "develop" him, or develop a role for him to fill. He fits this current team as poorly as Kevin Ollie does. Get some value for him. Anyway, that's why I think he should be traded.


----------



## fuzzybearpup (May 20, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> I'm probably the main "trade Wagner" poster in here... I didn't like the pick when we took him, I don't think he can or ever will be able to hold AI's jock, I don't think he will be an effective STARTER for us EVER - not at SG and certainly not at PG. I don't even think he will be effective off the bench, mostly because he thinks he should be a starter and he is a terrible "tweener". In my opinion, that makes him a waste of a roster spot. Trade him for whatever we can get. It helps us, and it helps him. Let some other team "develop" him, or develop a role for him to fill. He fits this current team as poorly as Kevin Ollie does. Get some value for him. Anyway, that's why I think he should be traded.


I basically agree with everything you are saying here. I thought the Cavs should have took Caron Butler at the time. But maybe its a good thing we didn't, because that following bad year helped us get a better chance in the lottery which we won getting LeBron, so maybe it all worked out right in the end. I agree that Wagner will probably never be an effective starter for us, especially not at PG. He really isn't a tweener since he can't play the point at all. Just a short SG. And he needs a lot of minutes to be truly effective so coming off the bench is not a great option either. For not being able to hold AI's jock I think you are wrong. He averaged over 14 points a game as a rookie if my memory serves me correctly. That was after missing all of training camp with the bladder infection/blood clot. If he goes to a team like Charlotte where he is allowed to let loose he will put up 20 points a game, he has that type of scoring ability. Not as good as AI, but certainly good enough to hold his jock. But since I agree he does not fit well on the Cavs they should trade him for the best available package.


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> I'm probably the main "trade Wagner" poster in here... I didn't like the pick when we took him, I don't think he can or ever will be able to hold AI's jock, I don't think he will be an effective STARTER for us EVER - not at SG and certainly not at PG.


Dajuan Wagner needs to be Dajuan Wagner. I always thought those Iverson comparisons were off the mark. So just because he can't hold Iverson's jock, we shouldn't like him? 95% of the league can't hold A.I's jock, so I'm looking past that. Juanny is his own player and when he comes around, he'll be much closer to a combo guard in the form of Bobby Jackson, than he ever will be to Allen Iverson. Juanny will never be a PG but he can learn a little PG skills so he won't be an exclusive SG forever.



> I don't even think he will be effective off the bench, mostly because he thinks he should be a starter and he is a terrible "tweener".


He's a terribly shy kid who seems to be humble. Maybe you're reading a lot into some body language or something. I've never read an article about Juanny directly saying "Hey, you guys better give me more time" or anything like that. I've never ever seen or heard anything of the sort.



> Trade him for whatever we can get.


Only trade Wagner for a good trade, otherwise, keep the young 21 year old player who still has a lot of upside. Unless you can argue Wagner is a locker room villain like Ricky Davis was and that you can win with "addition by subtraction," your whole line of thinking is flawed. Simplying letting Wagner walk for "whatever we can get" sounds incredibly misguided. We might as well kick Juanny out the door for bag of chips and cola. Since Juanny was a lottery pick, you are obligated to wait until he becomes a more serviceable player or trade him when his value is high. Right now, trading Juanny would be a mistake because his value isn't at its highest and you could receive less for Wagner than you would want.

----

fuzzybearpup> Good post. I have several doubts about Juanny but not his scoring ability. If he were on a team like the Bobcats and he bomb away, he would probably get 20 right now. When I hear Paul Silas say that in practice, Juanny is their best 1-on-1 player by far, I don't doubt that kid's ability to score.


----------



## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> 
> 
> Dajuan Wagner needs to be Dajuan Wagner. I always thought those Iverson comparisons were off the mark. So just because he can't hold Iverson's jock, we shouldn't like him? 95% of the league can't hold A.I's jock, so I'm looking past that. Juanny is his own player and when he comes around, he'll be much closer to a combo guard in the form of Bobby Jackson, than he ever will be to Allen Iverson. Juanny will never be a PG but he can learn a little PG skills so he won't be an exclusive SG forever.
> ...



What a great post. That the best aspect about Wagner. He doesnt complain, hes extreamly mature for his age. If silas says sit, he sits.  He doesnt complain to the refs, he just tries to prove them wrong with his game. 

If wags plays good off the bench, we usually win. Yes he might be effective as a volume shooter, but ive seen him come on drill a few threes and just sit back down again. I think his shooting skill is underrated some what. Especially from 3 point range, with consistant minutes we should see the %'s go up.


----------



## Cavs Central (Jun 15, 2004)

Let's give some credit to Wagner people, he has been hurt a whole lot to start his career, missing a lot of conditioning time too.

The start to his rookie season, before the first injury, was AWESOME. No one could stop the kid from getting to the basket. 

This past season, he just never looked like he fit in, he maybe had a week of elite basketball all year, but that was it. He did improve his 3 point shot however, I'll take that progress.

I'll give Wagner this season to show me what he has, I would hate to trade him now, and see him bust out somewhere else.


----------



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

For those who say he can and will, and for us who say he can't and won't (for the Cavs), I really think it will be a moot point. I think he will be traded (to Char). 

Being a lottery pick is irrelavant. Wasn't Langdon a lottery pick too? Wasn't Miles? Sure, they've both been in the league longer, but I think Paxson wants to construct a winner sooner, rather than later, and he doesn't have time to babysit Wagner. He (Paxson) is NOT under any OBLIGATION to babysit Wagner, and I am under no obligation to change my opinion, at least based on what he's shown so far.

- I would love to be proved wrong on this by seeing Wagner absolutely explode and be a Bobby Jackson type or old-school Vinnie "Microwave" Johnson off the bench bomber/scorer extraordinare. I have nothing against Wagner. I am 100% for Cavs victories. However, I stand by what I posted.

- Wagner averaged decent points his rookie season UNTIL teams had a 2nd chance at him and had game film to study. 
- As a small shooting guard, he does not do a good job getting open outside looks. Yes, he has great range. But if his man is realitively close to him, he can't get his shot off.
- His little running tear-drop jumper from 8-10' is a nice shot, but that will be easily defensed with interior help UNLESS he learns to pass the ball off after getting open. Has anyone seen anything more than basic perimiter passing from him? He does not have good passing skills, or even ball movement imagination.
- I 100% agree that he is a volume scorer. This is a "good" thing?? Let him "Stackhouse" up 25 shots a game, and yes, he'll average 20 pts. Is that really what you want to see? I don't. I don't see how that fits into the team concept at all. The only one I want to see jacking up that many shots at this point is James.
- No, he cannot hold AI's jock. It might've been a poor tag that got hung on him from the get-go, but it wasn't my tag. I say they aren't even close to the same playing level. Potential is just that.... a big word that hasn't proven anything yet. At some point in his career, Wagner MIGHT be considered the foundation of some team, or MIGHT be voted onto an All-star team.... (I have my doubts), but until then, yes, Wagner cannot hold AI's jock. Scoring 100 in HS, or averaging 14 for a partial rookie season doesn't really equate in my opinion to an Allen Iverson. But that's just my POV.


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> For those who say he can and will, and for us who say he can't and won't (for the Cavs), I really think it will be a moot point. I think he will be traded (to Char).


We'll all see come draft day. If Wagner isn't traded to Charlotte, it won't be a moot point in regards to his ability or potential because Cleveland will be counting on him to step up.



> Being a lottery pick is irrelavant.
> Wasn't Langdon a lottery pick too? Wasn't Miles? Sure, they've both been in the league longer, but I think Paxson wants to construct a winner sooner, rather than later, and he doesn't have time to babysit Wagner.


Being a lottery pick means, even if you are a bust, the GM of the team needs to handle you in a certain way so that all is not lost. If the team trades you for a deal in which you fail to receive equal value back, you have defeated yourself 2-fold. The first defeat is the draft selection and the second defeat is the poor trade. Even if you draft a lottery player and he fails to pan out, you can at least get a decent deal for that player instead of giving him away on a whim. The whole "give him away for whatever we can get" comment is what I despise with all my heart.



> He (Paxson) is NOT under any OBLIGATION to babysit Wagner, and I am under no obligation to change my opinion, at least based on what he's shown so far.


Showing patience in young players is common sense. To jump to gun early and say a 21 year old should not be given more time is illogical. I believe GM's should wait on young players, help them develop and stay positive with the kids during their growing pains. Why be so hasty?



> As a small shooting guard, he does not do a good job getting open outside looks. Yes, he has great range. But if his man is realitively close to him, he can't get his shot off.


That depends on the height of the man on him. Juanny stands about 6'1 without shoes but his wingspan is 6'8 or 6'9. Dajuan can probably shoot outright over any man his height with those ridiculously long arms. It's taller cats in the 6'5 and up range that can really jam his jumper.



> His little running tear-drop jumper from 8-10' is a nice shot, but that will be easily defensed with interior help UNLESS he learns to pass the ball off after getting open. Has anyone seen anything more than basic perimiter passing from him? He does not have good passing skills, or even ball movement imagination.


Juanny can improve basic passing. He needs to improve his feel for the game, you are right. I'm glad Juanny doesn't have passing imagination right now because to be honest, with the exception of James and Boozer, if you try to get too cute with a pass - some of the other Cleveland players would get confused, cut the wrong way or simply watch the ball go out of bounds. LOL



> I 100% agree that he is a volume scorer. This is a "good" thing?? Let him "Stackhouse" up 25 shots a game, and yes, he'll average 20 pts. Is that really what you want to see? I don't. I don't see how that fits into the team concept at all. The only one I want to see jacking up that many shots at this point is James.


Let's be honest. This Cavaliers team really doesn't have a team concept. This UCLA cousin offense we see in Cleveland from Silas is little more than dump the ball in the post or let James drive. Until this team gets a definite playbook, we really don't have a team concept. The offense seems helter-skelter as it is. Juanny doesn't need to shoot 25 shots a game but to be honest, I don't know if James himself should even be going out for 50 points a game. Juanny doesn't need 25 shots. If he got about 15 he'd be straight. But for what it's worth, it would be refreshing to see some zeal out on the court. Even James appears to be misused at times, stowed away in the far corner of the court with the plays running *away* from him. I'm just ready for some change. Not a careless, shot jacking free-for-all but I'm ready to see some more aggression and passion out on that court.



> No, he cannot hold AI's jock. It might've been a poor tag that got hung on him from the get-go, but it wasn't my tag. I say they aren't even close to the same playing level. Potential is just that.... a big word that hasn't proven anything yet. At some point in his career, Wagner MIGHT be considered the foundation of some team, or MIGHT be voted onto an All-star team.... (I have my doubts), but until then, yes, Wagner cannot hold AI's jock. Scoring 100 in HS, or averaging 14 for a partial rookie season doesn't really equate in my opinion to an Allen Iverson. But that's just my POV.


In my opinion, this argument is completely not worth the time of day because Wagner is his *own* player and his *own* man. Even if Juanny could hold Iverson's jock, I wouldn't want him too. I'd be the first person to tell Juanny to have his own game and stay true to himself. He'll be the first Juanny, not the second Iverson.


----------



## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> 
> 
> We'll all see come draft day. If Wagner isn't traded to Charlotte, it won't be a moot point in regards to his ability or potential because Cleveland will be counting on him to step up.
> ...


Dude, your one hell of a poster!! :greatjob: if you had ratings turned on, i'd give ya 10 stars!


----------



## fuzzybearpup (May 20, 2004)

I know this is a little off the original topic, but I was just wondering. What does a player have to do to be able to hold AI's or any other players jock? What are the requirements for that? Just curious. On a side note: If Dejaun does get traded and averages 20 points a game in Charlotte or elsewhere, and yet still can not hold AI's jock because he is a volume shooter, where does the line get drawn for jock holding? Iverson shoots a bad percentage, and only scores all those points because he is a volume shooter as well. I know that even if Dejaun averages 20 a game he is not as good as Iverson. I am just wondering at what point one player is worthy to hold another player's jock.


----------



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fuzzybearpup</b>!
> I know this is a little off the original topic, but I was just wondering. What does a player have to do to be able to hold AI's or any other players jock? What are the requirements for that? Just curious. On a side note: If Dejaun does get traded and averages 20 points a game in Charlotte or elsewhere, and yet still can not hold AI's jock because he is a volume shooter, where does the line get drawn for jock holding? Iverson shoots a bad percentage, and only scores all those points because he is a volume shooter as well. I know that even if Dejaun averages 20 a game he is not as good as Iverson. I am just wondering at what point one player is worthy to hold another player's jock.


Not sure what remy thinks... reputation must be worth alot to him.... to me, the first STEP would be to be at least good enough to be a starter on a weak, young team. If Wagner was all that, they'd of moved personal around enough to get him in the starting line-up... meaning James at either PG or SF to allow room for Wags at SG.


----------



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> 
> He'll be the first Juanny, not the second Iverson.


I agree... he will be the first Juanny... but I wouldn't worry too much about saving an all-star position for him. I think when all is said and done, he will have a pretty mediocre career. Someone like Larry Hughes will LOOK like an all-star compared to Wagner. Heck, Juan(ny) Dixon may end up with a better career than Wagner if he doesn't get his act together.

Also, I think it is pretty clear that you and I disagree on Wagner's supposed value to this team. I don't mind the debate, but really, time will tell.

As for lottery picks, was Wagner who you wanted the Cavs to take at the time? Do you think he was worth the pick? Do you feel he filled a team need at that time. (My answer is no to all 3 questions) 

Paxson got railroaded into taking Wagner on Lucas's urging. He screwed up royally... I think since then, he has realized that Wagner is not a good fit on this team, and should be dealt WHILE he still has value. Value to me would be for a player or package that can help the team now. 

I think you are reading too much (actually, too little) into my comments. Clev will not get full value for Wagner for one simple reason... he hasn't proven to be of any outstanding value. You seem to think that he has a great deal of value.... I don't think other teams see that. They see an undersized SG with definate holes in his game, and who has not been able to stay healthy. Not sure what you see, but that seems to be reality to me. I'm not saying trade him straight up for a Brevin Knight, or a Dikimbe... he is worth more than that... but you're not gonna get say a Corey Maggette or a Richard Jefferson type player for him staight up. If you think we can... I seriously disagree and laugh in your general direction.

Why be so hasty to trade him?... why waste time on a player who doesn't fit the system. Where exactly do you see him playing? Not PG... right? SG and move James to the SF? Kinda defeats the whole LeBron at the SG advantage. Off the bench? If the best fit in your opinion for Wags is a bench role, again... that says he isn't all that valuable a commodity when you're arguing that he is.

Note... not many teams have small SGs... so most of the defenders on Wagner will be taller than him. Kinda what I said. His lack of height at the SG is a disadvantage. As for wingspan.... are you serious? How many cats shoot with their arms fully extended above their head?? Most everyone shoots with a bent elbow.... wingspan has very little effect on being able to get your shot off. Try instead, quick release, ability to get open, and a combination of height and how high you jump when you shoot. (Unless you're Jack Sikma and your shot starts from BEHIND your head!)

For someone like Wagner, passing imagination is in no way fancy no-look passes. Again, you miss the point. When Wagner beats his defender and comes inside for his little tear-drop jumper, the opposing C or PF/SF will come over to pick him up (or should anyway). This will obviously leave Z or Booz open. Wagner doesn't even comprehend dumping off the ball to Z or Booz... he just rainbows his jumper. He has no idea how to make any passes but perimeter passes, or simple dump in passes to a guy posting up. He very rarely anticipates his team-mates movements in order to get them a finishing assist. He has no passing imagination... typical for someone who has been a scorer his whole life.

I agree with you that our offense seemed to have little purpose or focus. I hope this can be improved with the new assistant. Unfortunately for Wagner, even in a helter skelter type free-flow offense, he has trouble getting his shot off. He's just not good enough. I say cut our losses (he was the wrong pick), and get the best deal we can... probably something to do with Char taking Ollie in the expansion, etc., etc.


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!As for lottery picks, was Wagner who you wanted the Cavs to take at the time? Do you think he was worth the pick? Do you feel he filled a team need at that time. (My answer is no to all 3 questions)


You could have gotten Amare and that would have been better than getting Caron Butler. But the past is the past. I questioned the pick too but I've learned to deal with it. If I hit a dead horse 30 times or 300 times, I really haven't accomplished anything. It used to puzzle me too but I'm more about trying to *salvage* the situation first, before giving up on it.



> Paxson got railroaded into taking Wagner on Lucas's urging. He screwed up royally... I think since then, he has realized that Wagner is not a good fit on this team, and should be dealt WHILE he still has value. Value to me would be for a player or package that can help the team now.


Unless you wanted to ship Wagner his rookie year before the injury, you would have been late with your trade idea. The window was open for that stint but got closed fast. Lucas got suckered by a very good draft workout. But tell me this, how many teams have had a player do incredible in a workout, go on to select that player and later be disappointed? While it's sad, stuff like that happens all the time. 



> I think you are reading too much (actually, too little) into my comments. Clev will not get full value for Wagner for one simple reason... he hasn't proven to be of any outstanding value.


To urge the trading of a player with an all-time low trade value simply is strange. Especially since his value can't go any lower, just holding onto him will increase the value and *then* you can trade him. Your comments about trading him now seems odd if you turn around and say "Oh yeah, his trade value is low and you'll never get an even deal by trading him now." I know some of the draft trades sound okay but none of them sound so great, you have to off Juanny right away for. If a total no-brainer comes along, I understand.



> You seem to think that he has a great deal of value.... I don't think other teams see that.


You let a guy get back from injuries, get back into the mix and then you'll have a piece people might want. Once he finally gets a training camp under his belt and comes in better condition, his value will be there. I am arguing Wagner has the potential to have good trade value and I am against any hasty trade until he starts to get on the mend again. If nothing changes, then you can trade Wagner anyways and have no loss (it's not like there are blazing deals on the table right now). If Wagner gets better, his value increases and you win by showing the virtue of patience. Or if Wagner improves and you want to keep him, your avoidance of haste will prove worthwhile. In any of these 3 possible scenarios, it seems to point to being patient for the time being.



> They see an undersized SG with definate holes in his game, and who has not been able to stay healthy. Not sure what you see, but that seems to be reality to me. I'm not saying trade him straight up for a Brevin Knight, or a Dikimbe... he is worth more than that... but you're not gonna get say a Corey Maggette or a Richard Jefferson type player for him staight up. If you think we can... I seriously disagree and laugh in your general direction.


I don't think you can get a deal for Wagner involving Maggette or Jeffeson. My backlash is for those who say Dajuan is worthless, when clearly he's not. Just because I say Wagner is not worthless, doesn't mean I say he's anywhere in Maggette-Jefferson company. I just don't want to degrade/insult Dajuan by saying "Trade him for whatever, as long as he's out the door" because that attitude is really harsh towards players.



> Why be so hasty to trade him?... why waste time on a player who doesn't fit the system. Where exactly do you see him playing?


Right now, Cleveland does not have much of a system or team style. It's like pick-up ball with a few plays sprinkled in. Once the new assistant coach comes in and if the rest of the coaching staf gets upgraded, we'll have a true system. I see Juanny as the 6th man and if he is hot for a game, extend his minutes by playing McInnis-James besides him. I didn't like the second unit with Ollie-Wagner because James often sat out during that time. If Dajuan is hot, slide LeBron up to the 3 and when Wagner cools down, pull him out and put LeBron back at the 2. How I play Juanny would change a lot. He'd be the wild card, the X-Man.



> Not PG... right? SG and move James to the SF? Kinda defeats the whole LeBron at the SG advantage. Off the bench? If the best fit in your opinion for Wags is a bench role, again... that says he isn't all that valuable a commodity when you're arguing that he is.


To be honest with you, LeBron would be better at the 3 but that's another argument for another thread and another day. Until LeBron gets 3-point range, him being a wing is shakey at best. Plus I never liked Bron having to chase those guards all day long (Redd, Hamilton). But that's another argument. Wagner is currently the 6th man but if he got a few starts (assuming he stays), I wouldn't be shocked. Wagner or Brown have a chance to step up into the rotation, especially if James plays the 3 more next season.



> Note... not many teams have small SGs... so most of the defenders on Wagner will be taller than him. Kinda what I said. His lack of height at the SG is a disadvantage. As for wingspan.... are you serious? How many cats shoot with their arms fully extended above their head?? Most everyone shoots with a bent elbow.... wingspan has very little effect on being able to get your shot off. Try instead, quick release, ability to get open, and a combination of height and how high you jump when you shoot. (Unless you're Jack Sikma and your shot starts from BEHIND your head!)


I am a firm believer that length helps on jumpshots. Having a quick release is good but the height of the ball when you release it will help determine if people can block your jumper easily or will have to really time it well to block it. Juanny pretty much extends on his shots anyways. His jumper still needs more consistency but he has some of the best extension (nearly full arm) that I've seen in a while. Not the most accurate shot but pretty to look at. LOL



> He very rarely anticipates his team-mates movements in order to get them a finishing assist. He has no passing imagination... typical for someone who has been a scorer his whole life.


Outside of Boozer and James, nobody on this team moves without the ball. I'm not arguing Wagner is a great passer. But he could be John Stockton for all I care, but he wouldn't have much to pass to. Cleveland stands around entirely too much. And that's no secret why the lanes are super clogged every game and our team is incredibly easy to guard. Heck, some of James turnovers come from poor spacing (his turnovers would be a lot lower on a team with more movers) and even he looks bad because his teammates stand around. Wagner needs to improve his passing and the entire team needs to improve upon spacing, fast cutting and get more connected with one another (to develop a chemistry). The only chemistry I really see is a little Boozer-James 2-man game every now and then.



> I agree with you that our offense seemed to have little purpose or focus. I hope this can be improved with the new assistant. Unfortunately for Wagner, even in a helter skelter type free-flow offense, he has trouble getting his shot off. He's just not good enough. I say cut our losses (he was the wrong pick), and get the best deal we can... probably something to do with Char taking Ollie in the expansion, etc., etc.


We'll all see how good Juanny is next year, with Cleveland or elsewhere. I may doubt his place on this team but I don't doubt his ability to get a shot off. We know if you tell Juanny to shoot the ball, he can get his shot off. The key for him is to improve upon shot selection and improve his left hand. I don't think Wagner is handcuffed in the sense that he cannot put the ball on the floor to save his life, gets crowded and and then intimidated (freezing up).


----------



## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

Why is it that remy23 is the only poster taking an anylitical view point on this. Hes being non-bias and really posting quality replies. Everyone else is just hating to a degree.

More posters need to post as clearly and respectfully as remy23 does.

:greatjob: 

p.s. I am in agreeance with the last post


----------



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> Why is it that remy23 is the only poster taking an anylitical view point on this. Hes being non-bias and really posting quality replies. Everyone else is just hating to a degree.
> 
> More posters need to post as clearly and respectfully as remy23 does.
> ...


If that's a back-handed reference to me, I disagree with you. I've stated my reasons why I think Wagner is a bad fit for us, and why he is not a starter quality player. I have no agenda against Wagner, I wish he could produce equal to his rep. If you call that hatin'... whatever.


----------



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you guy's point of view about Wagner. 

Do this for me... remy, outline briefly (I don't need a paragraph of explanation for each of your points) what you feel Wagner has done well for Clev since his draft. Where has he shown results worthy of being patient with him. Try not to base your outline on what he did in HS or college. This might help me see why you feel so strongly about him.


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> Do this for me... remy, outline briefly (I don't need a paragraph of explanation for each of your points) what you feel Wagner has done well for Clev since his draft.


Until he was injuried, I enjoyed his rookie season altogether. The last few weeks of the season, Wagner played on a hurt knee and initially didn't tell the Cleveland medical staff. Until that injury (which ultimately forced him out for the rest of the season), I liked what I saw. This year had more of the same, injuries and reduced playing time. However, there were a few nights when Wagner played well and showed glimpses. I'm not ready to give up because I see it's there. It's simply inconsistent but it's there. 

Since Nailon will probably not be staying around for long, Wagner is the only offense off the bench. Brown and Wagner need to be encouraged because Cleveland only goes 5-deep and any talk of going deep in the playoffs seems silly in the face of that fact.


----------



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

So your hope for a successful Wagner is based more on a feeling you have, an intuition that he will be successful? 

And the fact that in two consecutive seasons he has barely dressed for half the games has no bearing on his level of success to this point in his career?

And that for the games he has played, him being LESS then a 37% FG shooter means nothing?

Or if you subtract his first 20 games in season #1.... meaning after teams had game film on him and could see how to defend him.... that he averaged around 10 pts , and then barely averaged 6 pts per game in his second season because teams were very familiar with his game... this means nothing to you?

And the obvious fact that he does not have the skills to be a PG, and that at 6'2 he is a very undersized SG in a league that now questions if a 6'1 PG is too small... this doesn't mean anything?

And that defense is not a strength of his... and he has given little indication that he will ever be more than an average to below average defender... this is ok by you?

This ain't hatin' (shazha)... them's mostly facts. You may not like them facts... but these FACTS, coupled with MY feeling that he is a poor fit on this team... basically a man without a position on a team that needs depth.... leads me to conclude we need to trade him for a piece that fits better. Ain't hatin' at all... just my hope that they team can continue to improve. Part of the way to do that, is to trade people with value (currently, Wagner does have value) for people who can help you more. Simple as that.

My bottom line hope, is for the Cleveland Cavs to continue to improve. I don't care if they do it with, or without Wagner. He is nobody to me. I want wins. If Wagner can bring them more wins... great. He's a keeper. If he can't... well, I've said my piece. 

At least you have to agree that if Wagner remains a Cav, that this year he really has to stay realitively healthy, AND he has to produce... right? Tell me you agree with that....

So what IF this upcoming season, he doesn't stay healthy... or he doesn't produce. Now you proven to other teams that his value is even LESS... not for 2 years, but for 3 consecutive years he's underacheived. You think you'll get more for him then? I think not.


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!So your hope for a successful Wagner is based more on a feeling you have, an intuition that he will be successful?


Not at all. My post is not about hoping Wagner becomes successful, but rather showing the patience to see whether he is or not.



> And the fact that in two consecutive seasons he has barely dressed for half the games has no bearing on his level of success to this point in his career?


James being a SG has a lot to do with dressing for games this season. It's not an knock if you're behind James.



> And that for the games he has played, him being LESS then a 37% FG shooter means nothing?


Stats, stats, stats. You can still be valuable to a team despite being a volume shooter. Our King James only shoots 41%. Heck, most of our players on the team *period* need to improve their shooting outside of Boozer-Z. It's a bigger problem than one individual. I don't just want Wagner to improve, I want the whole team working on jumpshots this summer.



> Or if you subtract his first 20 games in season #1.... meaning after teams had game film on him and could see how to defend him.... that he averaged around 10 pts , and then barely averaged 6 pts per game in his second season because teams were very familiar with his game... this means nothing to you?


Wagner averaged 9.4 less minutes a game his second season. To be honest, with about 10 more minutes a game, Wagner probably would have scored the same amount as his rookie year. In that light, the point drop-off isn't scary to me. It's not like his skills took a step back. In some areas, he's actually a better player than he was last season. The range on his jumpshot certaintly got better this season and I hope it continues next year as well.



> And the obvious fact that he does not have the skills to be a PG, and that at 6'2 he is a very undersized SG in a league that now questions if a 6'1 PG is too small... this doesn't mean anything?


If Wagner is on the court with a combination of any 2 of these guys: McInnis-Brown-James (6'4, 6'6, 6'8) you can hide that. Small ball is hard to pull off but it can be done (but in this case, pairing Wagner up with any 2 of these guys won't be too short in comparison to the Kings running Bibby-Jackson or the Sixers using Iverson-Snow).



> And that defense is not a strength of his... and he has given little indication that he will ever be more than an average to below average defender... this is ok by you?


If you are telling me Juanny lacks the ability or potential to be an *average* defender, back this statement up. Most people can be average with effort and conditioning. I am not ready to stamp Wagner yet. After Ricky Davis went to Boston, he actually played some incredible defense on a few nights. My opinion is if you are a good athlete, you can at least become average on the defensive end. Wagner has enough athleticism to be decent. On some nights when the Cavs are burned very bad by a particular match-up, I would like to see Cleveland use an occasional zone, the very thing teams do to us when one of our players are going beserk. 



> My bottom line hope, is for the Cleveland Cavs to continue to improve. I don't care if they do it with, or without Wagner. He is nobody to me. I want wins. If Wagner can bring them more wins... great. He's a keeper. If he can't... well, I've said my piece.


Getting wins is a team effort. Wagner played well on a few nights and the team still lost. So I'm not putting a loss on one player and a win totally on another. It's not even like that at all. Cleveland will get more wins when the coaching improves and all the players 1 through 12 show up in unison on any given night. We're not losing *just* because of Wagner. There is a *ton* of blame to go around for *everybody* in the organization.



> So what IF this upcoming season, he doesn't stay healthy... or he doesn't produce.


What if Wagner stays healthy, what if he produces? Questions, questions, questions. Since everything is uncertain, all we can do is keep an open mind and see what happens, *then* make our decision.



> Now you proven to other teams that his value is even LESS... not for 2 years, but for 3 consecutive years he's underacheived. You think you'll get more for him then? I think not.


And the counter is if Wagner plays well, his value has increased. So instead of letting fear of failure rule our future, I suggest we let the player's deeds rule his future (the deeds of next season). Who knows what will happen. We just need to see it for ourselves.


----------



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

I just disagree with your POV. You feel I don't make a good case, I don't think you do. You are still basing much of his value on potential. I feel I'm basing much of my POV on what he has actually done and shown. Time will tell.... 'except Wagner won't be getting a lot of floor time in Clev to prove you right. He might... on a different team.


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> I just disagree with your POV.


That's perfectly fine. 



> You are still basing much of his value on potential. I feel I'm basing much of my POV on what he has actually done and shown.


If Wagner were 25 instead of 21, I wouldn't even be arguing with you. I've never seen a 21 year old player fail to get better (or at least, I'd have to strain my mind to think of them). While it's hard to argue, I actually think Wagner is a better player right now than he was last year and I expect him to be a better play next year as well. Whether that's enough improvement or not, the league will see, whether he's with Cleveland or not.



> Time will tell.... 'except Wagner won't be getting a lot of floor time in Clev to prove you right.
> 
> He might... on a different team.


If Wagner gets dealt to Charlotte, he won't have much of a choice about playing more (going from a playoff contender to an expansion team). However, if Wagner is dealt during the regular season to another team, his playing time will depend on the team situation there (which may or may not be much more minutes than in Cleveland).


----------



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> 
> 
> If Wagner were 25 instead of 21, I wouldn't even be arguing with you. I've never seen a 21 year old player fail to get better (or at least, I'd have to strain my mind to think of them).


 Hmmm.... how quickly we forget Darius Miles... another young player who many thought would be all that... but isn't. Chris Mihm... journeyman. Trajan Langdon.... out of the league...and those are just Clev guys off the top of my head.



> While it's hard to argue,


Clearly.



> If Wagner gets dealt to Charlotte, he won't have much of a choice about playing more (going from a playoff contender to an expansion team). However, if Wagner is dealt during the regular season to another team, his playing time will depend on the team situation there (which may or may not be much more minutes than in Cleveland).


And my point, which you keep ignoring, is where is he gonna get minutes in Clev? He can't play point, and it is clear that Silas and Pax have James penciled in at SG. James will play 35-40+ minutes, leaving the back-up SG 10-12 minutes... and what if Kedrick gets SG minutes. There isn't room in Clev for Wagner.


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> Hmmm.... how quickly we forget Darius Miles... another young player who many thought would be all that... but isn't. Chris Mihm... journeyman. Trajan Langdon.... out of the league...and those are just Clev guys off the top of my head.


The players you named are a line of shady picks about the GM. I'm not arguing about those picks or the GM's skills. Dajuan's talent is higher than a Mihm or Langdon, so their fates, while sad to the Cleveland faithful, is not necessarily that of which Wagner will write for himself. While you mention Miles, I think he looked nice in Portland. He may not become a superstar but he's a good player now. Even Silas said he knew Miles would get it together. So it's nice to see that young man come around.



> Clearly.


Yet I can argue it still (improved range on the jumper). 




> And my point, which you keep ignoring, is where is he gonna get minutes in Clev? He can't play point, and it is clear that Silas and Pax have James penciled in at SG.
> 
> James will play 35-40+ minutes, leaving the back-up SG 10-12 minutes... and what if Kedrick gets SG minutes. There isn't room in Clev for Wagner.


James should not be playing 35-40 minutes. He should top out at 35 because stats show James is less efficent, shooting worse if he plays those extra minutes. First and foremost, unless Cleveland wants to run James in the ground (risk injury), cut back the minutes. Nailon will probably not be back next season, Kapono will almost certaintly be taken by the Bobcats and Newble might go too. Even if Newble stays, Cleveland has lost 2 SF. In the worst case scenario of Newble going too, you've lost 3 players who could play the SF. In light of this situation, you have to play Brown at the 3. Then Wagner gets the back up minutes at the 2. There's time for Juanny. The Cavs could easily be thin at the SF unless they draft a good SF (which Cleveland might or might not do). The odds are Brown will be seeing more time at SF than last season because of this situation, so he'll be playing less SG as a result (this situation will force Silas' hand). And even if Cleveland drafts a 3, there is no guarantee Brown will take over the backup 2. Paul Silas has not shown any particular favorism towards one player over the other. So no politics will decide this. Just skills.


----------



## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

Remy has basically said it all. Mongol, i just wanted to outline a few reasons why we shouldnt be toooo eager to get rid of wagner.

Firstly he hasnt had a chance to prove himself yet, or even prove he can stay healthy, that alone would really drop his trade value, so we wouldnt get much in return.

secondly, if we ask any portland fan they would say that they are quite happy with miles. They actually racked up alot more wins once he came to PDX. We really dont want to make the same mistake again. Miles wasnt a fit for clear reasons, but wags hasnt even had the chance to play consistantly yet. We owe him that, to at least try prove his game.

I would just like to give him a healthy season before trading him. At worst, he could end up like a tony delk player off the bench for us, a combo guard to keep our bench productive. Now theres nothing wrong with that, all teams need depth.

Wagner has the "potential" to be a star, but no one is saying he will. But mongol, you are saying he wont, not in cleveland and we dont know that. Thats what i call hating. A players past (short) past production is no basis for a prediction of his future production. Because everyone improves, i think he will improve, how much only time will tell.

For the momet i think we should not say what he can or can not do but give the 21 year old a break, give him a chance to prove himself and stay healthy too. Trading him doenst really free up time for other players, nor can it help us immediately either.


----------



## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats so true, during our 10 game win streak or whatever it was, James was playing limited minutes, in an attempt to rest for the playoffs. Unfortunately that eventually turned into somethin like a 10 game losing streak, because of mcinnis being injured.

I think limiting James minutes to 35 is a great idea, well until he gets used to an NBA schedule. As good as he is pysically, he does sometimes drop off with heavy consistant minutes. But that will soon change once he gets used to it. He is obviously our star, but he cant do it all himself all the time.

Thats why i always say to keep our team together, let them grow and build chemistry. Keep booze, keep big z keep mcinnis and wags. Our depth isnt that great, we need all the skilled players we can get our hands on. 

If we lose newble, kapono, and nailon, james may have to play alot more sf. Meaning wags might actually log some time at the sg spot next year. If we dont have him and we lose some forwards, we're stuck with a big hole to fill.


----------



## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> 
> If we lose newble, kapono, and nailon, james may have to play alot more sf. Meaning wags might actually log some time at the sg spot next year. If we dont have him and we lose some forwards, we're stuck with a big hole to fill.


I read on Fox News that Williams will probably be let go too. So Nailon-Williams leave, then Kapono possibly taken by the Bobcats and Newble danged around too. My initial guess was wrong. Cleveland will probably lose *3* players who could play the SF and in a worst case scenario (unlikely), Newble being taken would mean *4* players who could play SF are gone.

Even if Newble stays, I think the recent decision to let Eric walk will force *both* James and Brown to play the SF. Because if Cleveland doesn't draft a SF, there is simply no other option for the team.


----------

