# Telfair, adidas, and the Blazers



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Interesting stuff out of Peter Vecsey this morning:



> Furthermore, according to someone close to agent Andy Miller — an indicted co-conspirator in Joe Smith's illegal signing with the Timberwolves as well as the alleged coordinator behind the contract being handed over to David Stern — the Blazers committed to taking his client with the 13th pick.


and



> This is making adidas very nervous and with good cause. As part of its commitment to Telfair, the sneaker company, I'm clued in, has a comprehensive agreement with the Blazers. It entails buying corporate suites and seats at the Rose Garden, promoting the rookie on billboards throughout the state and various project within the community.


Very interesting. Even if it's not 100% true, it's interesting.

Ed O.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

What I dont understand, is why is this "making Adidas nervous"??


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

ok... now I understand.


more from the P.Vecsey story:

But, wait; stop the presses! Informants now say the Blazers aren't nearly as infatuated with Telfair as they were this winter when he was dominating Cali and Jersey tourneys. Suddenly they're hedging their pledge, which apparently has a built-in escape clause permitting Portland to tag him at No. 23 instead.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

I was going to post this but Ed O. beat me to it.

What is wrong with telling Telfair we will take him at #13 if available? It is not tampering!


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

I hope someone else picks him!!!!! We've already got one Mighty Mouse.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> I was going to post this but Ed O. beat me to it.


Muhahahahaha!



> What is wrong with telling Telfair we will take him at #13 if available? It is not tampering!


I don't think there's anything wrong with it, per se, except insofar as if Portland's passing on a player they think is better, it could hurt the team on the court in the longer term (of course, if they make a boatload of money off of adidas, maybe they'll be able to more easily afford to add free agents, making the team better even if Telfair doesn't pan out to be a star).

Another issue is if Portland renegs on its (alleged) promise, it could hurt their standing with both Telfair's agent and adidas... and assuming it was a firm guarantee, and if adidas is investing resources with the Blazers as a result, it's _possible_ that adidas would have standing to sue the Blazers over their agreement.

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JohnnyCash</b>!
> ok... now I understand.


Sorry about that... I kinda cut out the twist in the story and didn't mention that there was more critical info there.

Ed O.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

The main problem with this story as I see it is that Vecsey has as much credability as I do when it comes to NBA goings on. It'd be like me telling everyone that would listen that portland was going to trade SAR for the number 3 pick. That is as true as Vecsey's article.


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## Scout226 (Sep 17, 2003)

Ford has mentioned Telfair at #23 as well.. From the Blog.





> Ford also says he's confident the Blazers will snag HS phenom Sebastian Telfair with No. 23:
> There also has been speculation for weeks that Sebastian Telfair had been locked up. Why else would adidas give him that much money? There's a reason Insider put Telfair at No. 23 to the Blazers on Wednesday. They fell in love with him at a tournament in California and have been high on him ever since. It's pretty unlikely they'd use pick No. 13 on him, but No. 23 sounds just about right.
> Ford addressed the Blazers' draft specifically in a chat yesterday:
> Guard with one, center with the other. A lot will just depnd on where the fallout is. I could see them taking one of these guys: Pavel Podkolzine, Peja Samardziski, Rafael Araujo, Peter John Ramos, or Ha Seung Jin. I think the other pick will be on a guard. Someone like Andre Iguodala or Sergei Monya at the high end or someone like Kirk Snyder, Luke Jackson or Sebastain Telfair at the low end.
> ...


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mediocre man</b>!
> The main problem with this story as I see it is that Vecsey has as much credability as I do when it comes to NBA goings on. It'd be like me telling everyone that would listen that portland was going to trade SAR for the number 3 pick. That is as true as Vecsey's article.


You're wrong. Unless you have sources from Chicago or Portland that told you the trade is a possibility.

The fact is that Vecsey has been writing about the NBA for _decades_. He definitely knows some people, and in this case it seems pretty clear that he either talked to someone from Portland or adidas about suites and advertising.

Pete gets a lot of stuff wrong, and I would be shocked if he didn't regularly embellish stuff. I just don't buy that he sat down at his computer and decided to make up a bunch of stuff about Telfair, adidas and the Blazers, though.

Ed O.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

I hope the Blazers learned from their mistake last year by promising Outlaw they'd pick him... people who travel with the team and have watched many Blazer practices have told me that Outlaw will probably not ever be a NBA caliber player, he's just too raw.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

I don't feel bad taking him at 23, but not 13. This team needs someone who can step in today at 13, and at least play minutes. 

Since PG is the hardest position to play in the game, and hardest for an 18 year old 5'11" kid to adjust to...he's not getting minutes.

He'll be thrown around like a windsock in a hurricane.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> You're wrong. Unless you have sources from Chicago or Portland that told you the trade is a possibility.
> ...



Man people need to lighten up in this forum. Obviously I was joking. I don't near as many things as the great allknowing Vecsey does. I mean what does some lowly bar owner have any business thinking ha has knowledge of anything, or knows anyone. Much less a sense of humor.


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

I was kind of down on Telfair, until I saw one mock list his comparison as Kevin Johnson. I don't know if that is completely accurate, but KJ was a pretty decent point in his day. He had a slight build, but he sure could go around people. I haven't seen Telfair and it sounds like his shot is not as good and I'm not sure he is as quick as KJ, but if he was . . .


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

I would be VERY UNHAPPY if the Blazers took Telfair at #13. *VERY* unhappy. That's why I sincerely hope this rumour is true:



> "A few sources tell InsideHoops.com editor Jeff Lenchiner that the Cleveland Cavaliers, partially inspired by the wishes of LeBron James, are probably drafting Sebastian Telfair with their lottery pick in the 2004 NBA Draft. Other players are being considered, like Devin Harris and Ben Gordon, but the friendship between Telfair and James, as well as Telfair's actual basketball ability and marketing power, may very well result in the high school kid from Coney Island being taken by Cleveland."


However, I have to admit that there are people with less credibility than Vecsey, and some of them undoubtedly write for this web page.

Telfair at 23 I could live with. It's a bit of a waste (a la Erick Barkley) but it might excite the fans (he said condescendingly).


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

COME ON CAVS!!! SAVE US!!!

I wonder how Nike feels about Lebron campaigning for an Adidas boy?


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

I tell you, it is really hard to read the future of this kid (Telfair).

The amount of NEGATIVE hype surrounding him is astounding to me. I really think a lot of it is nothing more than backlash by the media, scouts and fans from him signing that deal with Addidas. Not to mention the "hype" that has surrounded him for quite awhile now.

As a player he is not a bad one at all, he is young (18), and will take some time to develop for sure. But if all you can come up with for reasons not to take him is a suspect outside shot, and his size and stature (and guys 5'11 is short, but not 5'9 Damon short), then I think you are missing the bigger picture.

From EVERYTHING I have read about the kid, even from Mr Canzano, to a man, they ALL say that Telfair is a REALLY nice kid, not pretentious at all, that he is a HARD worker who WANTS to get better, that he has unbelievable court vision. All of these IMO are VERY positive signs. He has drive, is not an egomaniac, is personable, intelligent and has fantastic skills that you cannot teach. 

Shooting can ALWAYS be improved by hard work, and he doesn't have a horrible shot, he has an inconsistent shot, and what young players do not? Everybody praised JR Smith's shot after his all star performances, but now in workouts, everyone says he can't shoot at all? Well? Which is it? Niether.... He is merely inconsistent, as is Telfair, this can be improved.

He is but 18yrs old, could he not grow another inch in the next few years? Even if he does not, he WILL get stronger, he will put weight on his slight build, just like Outlaw did. Yes, he may take a few years, but does anyone really believe that Damon will not be the starting PG next year? B\c he most definitely will be & we still have SAR to trade for the "mysterious" veteran\premier SG, and the #23 pick. I don't see the big deal in selecting Telfair.

I wouldn't be upset at all if POR took Telfair at #13.


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

This is kinda scary. I remember last year when we promised to take Outlaw. Seemed pretty bogus at the time... then, POW here we are with a skinny athletic freak. The whole business end of this makes a lot of sense and I could see Portland doing it just because of its financial situation. I just hope that we make the right move, whatever that may be. Our options are very open.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Adidas probably doesn't want Sebastian in Portland because that is Nike country.


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## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

I want to draft Telefair , I think it would be a good move by portland I think this kid is the real deal


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## DucknBlazer (May 7, 2003)

> Adidas probably doesn't want Sebastian in Portland because that is Nike country.



Actully, Adidas's North American Headquarters is located in Portland.

http://usa.adidas.com/us/home/corporate/features/about_adidas/village/theplan.html


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Adidas probably doesn't want Sebastian in Portland because that is Nike country.


um..adidas US HQ are located in Portland.

We're not soley "Nike Country".


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Well, I'll try to bow out of this thread left with some dignity. Three people made me look stupid in less than 10 minutes. I wonder if that is a record.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> Well, I'll try to bow out of this thread left with some dignity. Three people made me look stupid in less than 10 minutes. I wonder if that is a record.


LOL, no big deal man. :laugh: 

What an interesting dilemma it would be though, wouldn't it? POR being an Addidas house, so to speak? How would Nike like that? I wonder what the relationship is b\t the Blazers and Nike anyway? Is it a contentious one?


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> 
> 
> LOL, no big deal man. :laugh:
> ...


Phil is too busy paying his athletes on his other professional sports team. The University of Oregon Ducks football team.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Well, I'll try to bow out of this thread left with some dignity. Three people made me look stupid in less than 10 minutes. I wonder if that is a record.


With avatars like that... you can look stupid all day long!!!!

There is NO WAY that Nash would draft a player based on the fact that it would help the organization financially... he'll get us a BASKETBALL PLAYER!!! not a piggy bank.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Has Telfair worked out for any teams yet? Are there any reports on this?

I still think Telfair is gonna be a heck of a pickup for whoever gets him. 5'11" 6' who cares. HE could easily grow another inch or even 2, and if he doesn't so what. Tell Earl Boykins he's too short.

BTW Maybe a young guy with an inconsistent shot is just what Portland needs at PG. Remember how good Cook looked before he decided to start shotting? Simply tell Bassy to go out there and get other guys points, the shot will come in time. A HS PG will be more inclined to follow coach directions than a College player who has been the man.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

This istuation reminds me of the Travis Outlaw ordeal last year how we "promised" to take him and well we did.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Oh I like this kid !

Is it really a possibility we could get him???


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> We're not soley "Nike Country".


Nice pun, Hap, intentional or not.

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Schilly</b>!
> Has Telfair worked out for any teams yet? Are there any reports on this?


Yep. He worked out for Portland, didn't he? I haven't really heard much about his workouts, though.



> I still think Telfair is gonna be a heck of a pickup for whoever gets him. 5'11" 6' who cares. HE could easily grow another inch or even 2, and if he doesn't so what. Tell Earl Boykins he's too short.


I agree... I think that it's a strike against him, but if he's a good enough basketball player, he can overcome it. One of the reasons that Damon hasn't overcome his height is because of his nature as a shoot-first guard. Telfair is, his great ppg as a senior notwithstanding, reportedly a true playmaker.

I would not be upset if Portland nabbed Telfair at #13. I don't think it would be great value, but his upside is so considerable that it's worth it... and if adidas is going to (a) help support the Blazers, and (b) help SELL the Blazers (ad campaigns and such) that's good, too.

Ed O.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Schilly</b>!
> Has Telfair worked out for any teams yet? Are there any reports on this?
> 
> I still think Telfair is gonna be a heck of a pickup for whoever gets him. 5'11" 6' who cares. HE could easily grow another inch or even 2, and if he doesn't so what. Tell Earl Boykins he's too short.


Earl Boykins is too short to be anything but a good role player. He's a horrible shooter (because of his height) and his best asset is that he's quicker than snot.

If you want a gimmicky backup PG, Earl Boykins is your man.


> BTW Maybe a young guy with an inconsistent shot is just what Portland needs at PG. Remember how good Cook looked before he decided to start shooting? Simply tell Bassy to go out there and get other guys points, the shot will come in time. A HS PG will be more inclined to follow coach directions than a College player who has been the man.


yah. lets get another player who the defense can avoid like the plague. Sounds like a right good plan...


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> Nice pun, Hap, intentional or not.
> ...


oh of course, it was intentional...


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Enter Hap the Anti potential poster.:|


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Schilly</b>!
> Enter Hap the Anti potential poster.:|


which is worse, believing that because someone is 18, they obviously have great potential (and it doesn't matter that the chances are slim they'll turn out to be that great), or realizing that most of these guys are just made up into hype machines because people (agents, friends, businesses) see $$?

better yet, which is more realistic?

I for one am tired of hearing about all these young guys, who in 3-4 years *might* be something good. When in the history of the league, there have been maybe 10 guys who have turned into something good who were high schoolers.

O'neal, Kobe, Garnett, McGrady, Stoudemire, LeBron.

ANd what do those guys have in common? They were all guards or forwards. Not PG's. Not *short* PG's.

There are others too. Rashard Lewis. Al Harrington (I believe?), that other guy on the Pacers who's name I forgot.

There is a time and a place when taking a "potential" in a PG. Thats when you *HAVE* backup PG's already. Thats why taking Jermaine wasn't so bad. They had PF's. Thats why taking Zach wasn't so bad. They HAD PF's. 

Taking a PG, who won't play much now (or maybe ever) when you don't have a PG to stand on, isn't wise.


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

How is Earl Boykins a horrible shooter he is a very good shooter or he wouldnt be in the NBA. Earl can be alot more than a role player and people who think he cant are just ignorant and just see a point as a 6'3 200 player. If you can play then you can play.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Starbury03</b>!
> How is Earl Boykins a horrible shooter he is a very good shooter or he wouldnt be in the NBA. Earl can be alot more than a role player and people who think he cant are just ignorant and just see a point as a 6'3 200 player. If you can play then you can play.


dude, check out his stats. He shoots 42% for his career. Thats not good. It's not even average. It's bad shooting.

Catch the clue train.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> better yet, which is more realistic?


Name some prep players selected in the first round that have flopped in the last 10 years. I can't think of any other than Leon Smith, and everyone knew he had some serious mental problems before he was drafted.

I guess Diop might be the closest thing, but he's still a 7 footer and he's still only 21 years old.

Outlaw, Ebi, Perkins... those guys MIGHT fail, but it's too early to say that they have.

Miles? Stevenson? Certainly not stars (yet), but solid starters.

McGrady? Kobe? KG? O'Neal? Stoudemire? James? Superstars.

Let's compare prep players to college seniors. Duncan is the ONLY superstar to come out as a college senior that I can think of in recent NBA history. Hinrich and Prince and Battier and Tinsley are good role players, but unless one of them takes a big jump they're not going to approach any of the recent prepsters (Stoudemire, James).

On the other hand, you can look at players like Melvin Ely and Reece Gaines and Ryan Humphrey and Curtis Borchardt and Jeryl Sasser who are all college first rounders in the last three seasons who are nowhere near being NBA starters but don't have age on their side as they are nearing the end of their rookie (guaranteed) contracts.

The simple fact is that prep players have, to date, been a significantly better risk than college seniors and (I would guess) college players generally. The "swing" class seems to be freshman: if you lump them with prepsters, I think that they are clearly better bets than other collegians. If you put them with sophomores/juniors/seniors, it might swing away from prepsters.

Ed O.


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

Telfair is a personality, in addition to being a player. No Blazer has a 15 million dollar shoe contract... and they don't just hand those out like jellybeans. Short... sure... but unlike Damon he might have a bit more wingspan. Damon PLAYS small... especially on defense. With the Ratlif backing him up... I don't see PG posting him up all day. Talfair certainly is hyped... probably overhyped... but I don't see him just being another backup PG... no way... not if he gets a chance. Drafting Telfair would allow us to let Damon walk after next season. NICE.

I just read about 10 articles on Telfair, and I must say... he sounds very level headed for all that hype. From what I understood in one... he walked on to the Adidas ABCD camp for outstanding highschool players, the summer BEFORE his Freshman year in highschool, and dominated. He was only 135 pounds at the time. Interestingly enough... he didn't get much better in the next 3 years. 

The big ? mark is... can a highschool PG jump to the NBA?

From 
http://www.4shotsports.com/artman/publish/article_618.shtml 



> Facing facts
> 
> Telfair is not LeBron. He's not Kobe, or T-Mac. He's not a cut-to-the-core-of-his-muscle, 6-foot-8, jump-out-of-the-building wing player with an NBA body and skills to match.
> 
> No, Telfair, who isn't yet known by only his first name, is a 6-foot, 170-pound slick point guard, and none of those has ever jumped to the NBA from high school.


Looks like Livingston and Telfair will both try this year, it will be interesting to see how they do.


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

42 percent shooting is not that bad for a guard. There are alot of very good guards in the league with that low of a shooting percentage. If you think Earl can't shoot I guess you dont watch game you just look at stats.


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## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Paxil</b>!
> Telfair is a personality, in addition to being a player. No Blazer has a 15 million dollar shoe contract... and they don't just hand those out like jellybeans. Short... sure... but unlike Damon he might have a bit more wingspan. Damon PLAYS small... especially on defense. With the Ratlif backing him up... I don't see PG posting him up all day. Talfair certainly is hyped... probably overhyped... but I don't see him just being another backup PG... no way... not if he gets a chance. Drafting Telfair would allow us to let Damon walk after next season. NICE.
> 
> I just read about 10 articles on Telfair, and I must say... he sounds very level headed for all that hype. From what I understood in one... he walked on to the Adidas ABCD camp for outstanding highschool players, the summer BEFORE his Freshman year in highschool, and dominated. He was only 135 pounds at the time. Interestingly enough... he didn't get much better in the next 3 years.
> ...





I think it will be a good thing for the blazers to draft him , it will take time but I think he will be a player


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> McGrady? Kobe? KG? O'Neal? Stoudemire? James? Superstars.


so basically, we can either get a guy who's a little older and be good..or most likely get a guy who's a lot younger who will be good in 3 years.

wow..thats spectactular!


> Let's compare prep players to college seniors. Duncan is the ONLY superstar to come out as a college senior that I can think of in recent NBA history. Hinrich and Prince and Battier and Tinsley are good role players, but unless one of them takes a big jump they're not going to approach any of the recent prepsters (Stoudemire, James).


they also played on their teams sooner than they would've if they were 18, 19.



> On the other hand, you can look at players like Melvin Ely and Reece Gaines and Ryan Humphrey and Curtis Borchardt and Jeryl Sasser who are all college first rounders in the last three seasons who are nowhere near being NBA starters but don't have age on their side as they are nearing the end of their rookie (guaranteed) contracts.


they also sucked. A lot of players are taken because they're tall, or because the scouts of certain teams suck.


> The simple fact is that prep players have, to date, been a significantly better risk than college seniors and (I would guess) college players generally. The "swing" class seems to be freshman: if you lump them with prepsters, I think that they are clearly better bets than other collegians. If you put them with sophomores/juniors/seniors, it might swing away from prepsters.
> 
> Ed O.


you are not including the high school players who aren't even drafted, or drop like stones. 

This isn't really a debate about whether or not high school players can turn into something, but whether or not Portland should take another one, when they need someone now.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Starbury03</b>!
> 42 percent shooting is not that bad for a guard. There are alot of very good guards in the league with that low of a shooting percentage. If you think Earl can't shoot I guess you dont watch game you just look at stats.



42% is bad no matter how you slice it.

Just because there are a lot of players that shoot crappy, doesn't mean that we should lower the bar for whats good shooting.

I don't care if he has big games once in a while. So does Damon. And no one here (not even Ed O would bring up Damons good 3 point shooting) would suggest that Damon is a good shooter. 

And Boykins shoots worse than Damon does from 3. 

Face it, Boykins shooting 42% is not a good shooter.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

Where do I sign, from everything I've heard Telfair sounds like he'd be a great pickup.

A gym rat with great court vision, desire to improve and a level head... hype aside, why not? If he is 5'11 w/o shoes at 18 years old, I don't see the big deal. Tony Parker came into the league at 19 and hit the ground running...

If we want someone who can be mediocre and play now then we can pick up a couple of guys with the MLE.

If we could walk away with Telfair and a good center prospect or Telfar and Jackson, I think that'd be a great day...


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> you are not including the high school players who aren't even drafted, or drop like stones


Hap, who cares about the ones who weren't drafted or dropped into the 2nd round? We aren't talking the back of the line here, we are talking the front. FIRST ROUNDERS. Especially at #13. I fail to see your point here. The FACT is that HS players turn out to be as good or better pros as a percentage than College age or european kids. Only ONE HS kid (Leon Smith) chosen in the 1st round in the last EIGHT years is out of the NBA. That should tell you that drafting HS kids in the 1st round is hardly a crapshoot.



> This isn't really a debate about whether or not high school players can turn into something, but whether or not Portland should take another one, when they need someone now.


As for help now. Who are you kidding? Miles and Zach are 22 and ALREADY MAJOR contributors to our team, we could easily absorb another HS player, especially if we draft one that has the potential to be an All Star level player. Where are we going anyway? Like Luke Jackson is going to be the "difference" in winning an NBA title or making a run in the playoffs next year?...hardly...

Besides, until Shaq retires (or Kobe leaves) AND Duncan and the Spurs start to decline, POR isn't going ANYWHERE. Better to build for the future, than keep deluding yourself in the present, with Ray Allen = NBA title dreams. That is pure nonsense.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> they also sucked. A lot of players are taken because they're tall, or because the scouts of certain teams suck.


You seem to have a remarkable ability to say that players suck after they are proven to suck. But a remarkable inability to understand that saying they suck after the fact is not very valuable.



> you are not including the high school players who aren't even drafted, or drop like stones.


As kmurph said: why even debate them? I'm not arguing that ALL prep players are better than all college players. I'm not even arguing that all prep first rounders are better than all college first rounders...

But I'm CERTAINLY not bringing college seniors who aren't even drafted of drop like stones as any kind of strike against Luke Jackson, Jameer Nelson and Rafael Araujo.



> This isn't really a debate about whether or not high school players can turn into something, but whether or not Portland should take another one, when they need someone now.


That's not the debate as I see it. I don't see ANY player at 13 stepping right in and making a difference for the Blazers this year. I think that John Nash has said specifically that he doesn't see players they draft being in the rotation next year.

You seem to be discounting prep prospects merely because they are high schoolers in spite of the massive evidence that prep players have been better investments than college upper classmen. And you seem to be discounting Telfair's chances as a prep-to-NBA prospect because of his lack of college experience, in spite of the fact that no PGs at his level have ever declared for the NBA out of high school (so there's no track record of failure for highly regarded smaller prep players in the NBA).

Ed O.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> You seem to have a remarkable ability to say that players suck after they are proven to suck. But a remarkable inability to understand that saying they suck after the fact is not very valuable.


you can tell a player sucks generally from college. Gadzuric sucked in college, he's gonna suck in the NBA.


> That's not the debate as I see it. I don't see ANY player at 13 stepping right in and making a difference for the Blazers this year. I think that John Nash has said specifically that he doesn't see players they draft being in the rotation next year.


he's also said he wants to draft someone who can play next year. 

Look at Richard Jefferson. He was a JR in 2001. Did anyone think he'd turn into the player he is now? Based on his college stats?

oh wait, he can jump! and dunk! woo! 


> You seem to be discounting prep prospects merely because they are high schoolers in spite of the massive evidence that prep players have been better investments than college upper classmen.


they're either hit or miss. And when people finally grasp the concept I'm saying the team needs someone who can help them NOW, and being 22 is not too old to draft a player, than maybe I'll start giving a crap about this thread anymore.


> And you seem to be discounting Telfair's chances as a prep-to-NBA prospect because of his lack of college experience, in spite of the fact that no PGs at his level have ever declared for the NBA out of high school (so there's no track record of failure for highly regarded smaller prep players in the NBA).


omar cook wasn't a highly regarded smaller prep player? Oh wait, it has to be of telfairs "stature"?

and that has nothing to do with his New York status? or the fact he's Marburys cousin? 

suuuure..



> Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> you can tell a player sucks generally from college. Gadzuric sucked in college, he's gonna suck in the NBA.


Well, Gadzuric wasn't a first round pick. And considering he started 30 games for the Bucks as a (24 year-old) rookie, I don't know if he's really sucked so far.



> they're either hit or miss. And when people finally grasp the concept I'm saying the team needs someone who can help them NOW, and being 22 is not too old to draft a player, than maybe I'll start giving a crap about this thread anymore.


EVERY type of player is hit or miss. It just so happens that prep players taken in the first round happen to miss much less often than other types of players.



> omar cook wasn't a highly regarded smaller prep player? Oh wait, it has to be of telfairs "stature"?


Omar Cook wasn't even considered the top player in the city by some. Taliek Brown was probably better all-around and Andre Barrett was hyped, too. Cook was a highly regarded prep player, no doubt, but there are degrees of levels of prospects and I've never read anything that indicates Cook was at the same level as Telfair.



> and that has nothing to do with his New York status? or the fact he's Marburys cousin?


I don't think that his cousin has anything significant to do with the level of hype he gets. I thnk that his NYC status DOES affect it. But if all the hype were true, he'd be a top 5 pick this year, and I don't see anyone here saying that should or will happen.

Ed O.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> Omar Cook wasn't even considered the top player in the city by some. Taliek Brown was probably better all-around and Andre Barrett was hyped, too. Cook was a highly regarded prep player, no doubt, but there are degrees of levels of prospects and I've never read anything that indicates Cook was at the same level as Telfair.
> 
> Ed O.


This is a repost from another thread, but it's about the same thing. 

Re: Omar Cook. Omar was the 11th ranked player in the class of 2000, incidentally Zach Randolph was #1 rated high schooler that year. Telfair is currently tied for #5 ranked player, all of this according to RSCI ratings. To me, that's pretty close to the same level of expectation for the two.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4979408/


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> This is a repost from another thread, but it's about the same thing.
> 
> Re: Omar Cook. Omar was the 11th ranked player in the class of 2000, incidentally Zach Randolph was #1 rated high schooler that year. Telfair is currently tied for #5 ranked player, all of this according to RSCI ratings. To me, that's pretty close to the same level of expectation for the two.


Thanks for posting this again, Fork. To me, that's pretty disparate ratings. One (Telfair) is a consensus top-10, while the other is only the fourth-highest ranked player at his position.

Guess even in the face of that sort of info, it's in the eye of the beholder to a certain extent.

Ed O.


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## QRICH (Feb 2, 2004)

*Sabastian Telflair*

I wouldn't hold his size against him too much, 5'11" w/o shoes....Allan Iverson, once a MVP callibur player is only about 5'11" w/o shoes, 6'0" with.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> And when people finally grasp the concept I'm saying the team needs someone who can help them NOW, and being 22 is not too old to draft a player, than maybe I'll start giving a crap about this thread anymore.


While it's kind of you to have hung with us lesser minds this long, I do think we all "grasp" what you're saying.  We don't all agree with your belief, it appears.

You've given no real evidence that Portland *must* come away with a contributor for next season. Do you have title hopes for next season? If so, I think you're being far too optimistic. If not, then who cares if he contributes next season? How about acquiring the best talent we can so that whenever he *is* ready, the team has a better chance at a title?


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> While it's kind of you to have hung with us lesser minds this long, I do think we all "grasp" what you're saying.  We don't all agree with your belief, it appears.
> ...


no, I don't have hopes for next season. But I do have hopes that they'll actually draft someone (for the first time in a LONG time) that actually plays on the team in his rookie year. 

When was the last time that happened?


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>:
> http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4979408/


Thanks for the link. Presumably you meant us to read this quote from Matt Guokas (wasn't he a lame-*** coach for the Magic before Brian Hill?):



> There are always questions over the high school players entering the draft, but the name I hear the most that teams like as a position player is Sebastian Telfair, a 5-foot-11 point guard out of Lincoln High School in New York City. Most of the scouts I have talked to feel Telfair is the best point guard in the draft.
> And they are not saying he's a prospect, they are saying he's ready to go.


All well and good, but right in the middle of the above passage is a link to a plausible-sounding Mock that has teams fighting over Devin Harris and Shaun Livingston and Telfair falling to #25, with this comment:



> Even NBA execs begging to discover a superstar guard can't go overboard and draft this guy higher than the bottom third of the draft.


Add to that this comment from Chad Ford (I know, I know, the guy's a tool - how do I get his job?):



> Peter, NYC: Who's the most overrated player in the draft this year?
> 
> Chad Ford: Sebastian Telfair. If he was playing high school ball in Oklahoma City, you would have never heard of him and he'd be a nice point guard in Division One next year.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> they are saying he's ready to go.


Our own GM said these EXACT same words on 1080 the fan a few weeks back. He think Telfair can come in an contribute immediately.

I wouldn't take Chad Ford's word for anything....



> no, I don't have hopes for next season. But I do have hopes that they'll actually draft someone (for the first time in a LONG time) that actually plays on the team in his rookie year.


Hap, who cares if they play on the team in their rookie season? That seems like a really minor thing to get hung up on. 

Jermaine barely played his rookie year and I say he turned out alright. Zach barely played his rookie year and he has turned out quite alright too. Personally, I don't think Telfair would take as long as Outlaw to develop. Travis was admittedly a long ways (3+ years) off from even CONTRIBUTING (or is he?), not every HS player will take this long.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> no, I don't have hopes for next season. But I do have hopes that they'll actually draft someone (for the first time in a LONG time) that actually plays on the team in his rookie year.
> 
> When was the last time that happened?


Why is that important, if you don't have hopes for next season?

Would you rather we passed over Zach Randolph for some guy who'd still be a role-player today but sure played in his rookie season?


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> 
> 
> Hap, who cares if they play on the team in their rookie season? That seems like a really minor thing to get hung up on.


hold on, you quote john nash saying that sebastion can play next year (as tho thats enough proof he should be drafted) but then in the same post say who cares if a player can play on the team in their rookie year?

Well I care!

I'd rather draft someone like a Marquis Daniels, who can play. Are you saying you wouldn't want to have someone like Daniels on the team? (a player around his age and ability to play, not necessarily HIM on the team).



> Jermaine barely played his rookie year and I say he turned out alright. Zach barely played his rookie year and he has turned out quite alright too. Personally, I don't think Telfair would take as long as Outlaw to develop. Travis was admittedly a long ways (3+ years) off from even CONTRIBUTING (or is he?), not every HS player will take this long.


the only problem with this thinking is...Zach and Jermaine were both *big men* and not positions the team needed at the time.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Why is that important, if you don't have hopes for next season?
> ...


1: it's important because part of the reason I don't have hopes for next season is because the youth we have (outside of Zach and Darius) haven't shown anything.

2: the difference between 13 (lotto) and Zach's pick are totally different. At 23, I'd rather take a HSer than a college SR. Not at 13, when most of the guys who are worth risking a pick on are gone, or really not that much better (or won't be that much better) than a guy who can step in tomorrow and give us decent minutes.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>:
> 
> Our own GM said these EXACT same words on 1080 the fan a few weeks back. He think Telfair can come in an contribute immediately.


He can get donuts for the guys, he can carry bags, he can collect the balls after a shootaround...

If you were a GM, would you give ANYTHING away? On the RADIO?



> I wouldn't take Chad Ford's word for anything....


I know whatcha mean, but I'm sure he'd feel the same way about us. And he actually gets paid to go and watch all these guys (the *******).



> Jermaine barely played his rookie year and I say he turned out alright. Zach barely played his rookie year and he has turned out quite alright too. Personally, I don't think Telfair would take as long as Outlaw to develop. Travis was admittedly a long ways (3+ years) off from even CONTRIBUTING (or is he?), not every HS player will take this long.


But the trouble is, there is just NO precedent for a small PG (or ANY PG - LeBron James is not a PG) to go straight from high school. It is rare even for college seniors to come in and contribute. The player most similar to Telfair in build, but even exceeding him in hype, was Kenny Anderson. Now, he had only one year of college, and he was taken, what, #2? But he didn't play more than garbage minutes his whole first season. Sure, he went on to a decent career, but nothing stellar. And he could shoot. PGs more than any other type of player seem to need as much seasoning as they can get. And they're not going to get it sitting on the bench.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

*DeJuan Wagner*

Wasn't he the last mega-hyped small high school guard? Who scored 100 points in a game? I just saw him mentioned: apparently him plus the 10th pick would be "not nearly enough" for Cleveland to move up to #4.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> hold on, you quote john nash saying that sebastion can play next year (as tho thats enough proof he should be drafted)


Not proof that he should be drafted at #13, but it does say something about ONE GM's (who happens to be our own) opinion on Telfair's readiness. Nash was asked point blank if Telfair could come in next year and contribute and he said YES. He then went on to mention that he has known about Telfair for quite awhile AND that Telfair has played\worked out with pro players for quite awhile. I think that does have some weight, don't you?



> but then in the same post say who cares if a player can play on the team in their rookie year?


Because , frankly I don't care if Telfair cannot contribute next year. Damon is going to be the starter, and Dickau (unless he is selected by CHA) or Cook or Gill or a FA pickup (most likely IMO) will be the primary backup (at least to start). Do I think Telfair would contribute some in a reserve role next year? Yeah, I do. I think by mid\end of the year he would be the primary backup. But even if Dickau, Gill and Cook were gone, POR would sign a veteran FA as a backup PG, just in case Telfaie did struggle.



> I'd rather draft someone like a Marquis Daniels, who can play. Are you saying you wouldn't want to have someone like Daniels on the team?


Sure who wouldn't? But I don't see Luke Jackson stepping in and putting up those kinds of numbers, he will struggle too. We already have a deep team, especially at the SF spot, Luke would be lucky to see 10min a night, probably the same amount Telfair would see as a backup PG, and the bottom line is IMO Telfair has a potentially higher ceiling than Luke does.



> If you were a GM, would you give ANYTHING away? On the RADIO?


What is he giving away? That he thinks the kid can play? WOW...newsflash, POR GM thinks Telfair can play in the NBA. He didn't give away anything. Sayiong you like a kid doesn't mean you are going to take him (hint....Luke Jackson).



> But the trouble is, there is just NO precedent for a small PG


So what? What does that have to do with anything? Either he will succeed or he won't. I fail to see how just b\c something (in this case a HS PG leaping to the Pro's) has never been done before automatically means it will fail.

Hmm...that sounds familiar.....


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

Boy this is going to be a fun draft. VERY hard one to predict too. Fun fun fun... and a great group of hoopheads to debate it all.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Just to give you an idea of what Telfair is like, here is an interview he gave after his Utah workout

Telfair Interview 



> utahjazz.com: Getting your first taste of the NBA with these workouts, what has it been like?
> 
> Sebastian: “It’s been great. A lot of what I thought it would be; people always giving me advice; telling me there’s going to be a lot of shooting; a lot of running, *and I’m willing to learn. I’ll stay in the gym all day*.”





> utahjazz.com: What kind of feedback are you getting from other people about your readiness to make the jump to the NBA?
> 
> Sebastian: “As I go through the workouts I ask the coaches how I’m doing, and things like that, so I’ve worked on my jumper, which is doing pretty well right now. *So I’m just going to take everything, negative and positive, and go work on it.*.”


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

link about him
http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread.php?p=245485#post245485


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