# Chris Paul is the 2nd Best Player in the League



## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

I've always believed this, but now that he's healthy again and playing like a superstar in the playoffs, it's time for everybody to believe this.


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## 29380 (Feb 23, 2009)

I have him third behind LeBron and Dwight.


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## TheAnswer (Jun 19, 2011)

I don't know about that, but don't you think Kevin Durant deserves a mention after LJ?


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

There are a handful of guys that deserve a mention, sure. If you're a top 5 player, somebody should be able to make a case for you being better than whoever is ahead of you and vice versa.

Chris Paul does every single thing at a high level for his position. He's an incredible all around player in every facet of the game and is a complete and total leader for his team. He makes everybody around him better, I don't think those are things you can definitively say about KD at this point.


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## 29380 (Feb 23, 2009)

TheAnswer said:


> I don't know about that, but don't you think Kevin Durant deserves a mention after LJ?


No, IMO he is in the Wade Rose Kobe class.

To me LeBron CP3 and Dwight are the holy trinity of the NBA if you have one of them you should be a contender.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm taking Dwight after LeBron. Then probably Paul.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Paul isn't Durant.

You guys change your opinion game to game.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

You can go back for sure the past year or two and see I had Paul ranked 2, though I admitted I didn't have an issue with people having him in that 5 range because he hadn't fully recovered from his injury.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

This years Top NBA Players thread.

3rd post in.

In the one last year apparently I missed the voting for number 2, because I didn't post in the thread at all, but I stated my case for him in the 3rd best player (Dirk was the choice, and I complained until Paul was picked).

2010 I voted for him 4, though again I think I missed 2 and 3 because I didn't post in them at all.

Anyways, my point is, I've been a Paul supporter for years now. Him turning around the fortunes of a perennial loser is helping prove my case.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

BJ's been on Paul R-Star, you don't know what you're talking about here 

I just feel like you'd be foolish to not take what Dwight offers you because his strengths are the meat and potatoes of a championship, and he kind of makes you at least average at rebounding and defense by himself. Have efficient shooting, a gamechanging scorer and a distributing point guard around him to find his spots and it's all gravy. 

Paul doesn't have a weakness at point guard but end of the day I'm going to be a traditionalist and take the big man.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

It's positional. Paul is the best pg in the nba. Wade is the best sg, james is the best sf, Howard is the best center and Frye is the best pf. Just kidding, there are no franchise pfs in the league.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Umm but there's still a best sir


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

LeBron is the only guy that I would say is a clearly better player than Chris Paul. It's a tough call. I think the top 5 is LeBron, Wade, Howard, Durant and Paul, with Rose the odd man out due to injuries.


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

This thread must have been inspired by the kvbl chat we had...

What's amazing is that he clearly lost a step since his days on the hornets but he's still beasting it. He's definately a special player, always considered him a top 2 player back then, never really thought of it these days but u could make an argument for it. 

Although players like Dwight and Durant should be considered too, Lebron is clear cut #1 and then 2-4 can be interchangeable imo...


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

It's all based on who's playing at the time (injury or getting more games to shine in the playoffs) and who's playing well. Skill wise I always felt Paul was top 3 since 2008. I was always a Paul guy over Dwill and Rose when the pg argument came up. Hard to dispute those guys though when they are putting up MVP type performances during the season or in the playoffs, especially if CP3 is hurt. Until recently Paul never had the luxury of "picking his spots", he had to dominate or his team would lose, plain and simple.

Tough to be top 3 player at his position, win, and be ball dominate at the same time.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Dre said:


> Umm but there's still a best sir


Meh, I guess Love should get that spot.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Hyperion said:


> Meh, I guess Love should get that spot.


I may be wrong, but I think he was saying there's still a hierarchy of players where you insinuated it was purely positional. 

Case in point being that the best PF in the league might not even be making a top 10 players list.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Paul has lost a step, but his skill level and understanding of the game are tops. LeBron is #1. I like Dwight, Durant, Paul and Wade in the next class. All of them do very different things, so its hard to choose without knowing their surroundings.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Paul has lost a step, but his skill level and understanding of the game are tops. LeBron is #1. I like Dwight, Durant, Paul and Wade in the next class. All of them do very different things, so its hard to choose without knowing their surroundings.


Yep, although I'd add a healthy Rose in on that as well.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Dre said:


> BJ's been on Paul R-Star, you don't know what you're talking about here
> 
> I just feel like you'd be foolish to not take what Dwight offers you because his strengths are the meat and potatoes of a championship, and he kind of makes you at least average at rebounding and defense by himself. Have efficient shooting, a gamechanging scorer and a distributing point guard around him to find his spots and it's all gravy.
> 
> Paul doesn't have a weakness at point guard but end of the day I'm going to be a traditionalist and take the big man.


I would take that a step further and say that Dwight makes you a very good defensive team by himself. The Magic have been one of the best defensive teams in the league over the past 5 years without a single guy you would call a "good" defensive player other than Dwight. Stan deserves some credit for that, but the vast majority goes to Dwight.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I would take Dwight and Durant over him pretty easily. He's still in that Rose/Kobe/Wade tier.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Explain Durant to me, I just can't see that.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

BlakeJesus said:


> Explain Durant to me, I just can't see that.


He's arguably the most diverse offensive threat in the league. Is ridiculously long, athletic, and is still getting better. Rebounds, blocks, etc.

Its not cut and dry to say hes better than Paul, but to just out and call Paul the sure fire #3 in this league is wrong.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

I mean, is Durant discernibly better than Kobe?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

BlakeJesus said:


> I mean, is Durant discernibly better than Kobe?


Depends who you ask around here. Because of his age, Kobe is one of the most underrated players on these boards.

Some have gone as far as saying Harden is the better player this season than Kobe.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

BlakeJesus said:


> I mean, is Durant discernibly better than Kobe?


I don't think anyone is discernibly better than Kobe except for LeBron.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Luke said:


> I don't think anyone is discernibly better than Kobe except for LeBron.


Agreed.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

BlakeJesus said:


> I mean, is Durant discernibly better than Kobe?


Moot point because you can't say Chris Paul is discernibly better than Bryant, Durant, Howard, Wade or Rose.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

I think you can though. To me it goes something like this...

LeBron
Paul/Howard
Kobe/Wade/Rose/Durant (no order)

I think Paul and Howard clearly have a larger impact on their team than the other guys not named LeBron.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I don't really see why. Before this season I could entertain the idea that Dwight was the clear second best player in the league but I'm going to need to watch him actually try for a year before I'm willing to put him back on that pedastal.

Paul doesn't dominate the game in the same way that a Kobe Bryant or a Derrick Rose does. And that's not me looking at PPG and deciding that's scoring is the end all. Paul has clearly lost a step athletically and while he is the best game manager and distributor in the world right now, the fact of the matter is that it is harder for a point guard to dominate the game in the same way that a wing, or especially a big can. So yeah, Paul may be the second best player skill wise in the league (or even first, it doesn't really matter) but due to his physical limitations I don't think that he's clearly the second better than everyone not named LeBron.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

How doesn't Chris Paul dominate the game at the same level? His teams routinely have shot for high percentages in crunch time, if you need him to get to the line, shoot a three, or create a shot for somebody else he can do it. He dominates the ball on offense yet rarely turns it over, is a threat to score from anywhere on the floor, and is one of the best passers playing the game right now. And oh yeah, he's the best ballhawk in the league (led the league this year with 2.53 steals per game, 2nd place was 2.19, 3rd was 1.86 so it wasn't all that close either). He is constantly forcing the action on defense, and every swipe he makes is highly calculated. I don't know how much you value leadership or the killer mentality, but based on the fact that you're a Laker fan I'm sure you appreciate this quality. It's pouring out of Chris Paul, he holds everybody around him accountable and is held in high regard by his teammates. He's a coach on the floor, and an assassin with the ball in his hands.

If you really break it down, Paul doesn't have a weakness, yet he does a multitude of things at a high to elite level.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

See with Durant vs. Kobe....Obviously Durant is more efficient, but if you wonder why that is you question who really is a better individual player.

I feel like Kobe is more prone to the bad shots because he's so stubborn about his and doesn't have a Westbrook to fight for shots with, so they're gonna fly. Also he does more for his offense than Durant does in terms of ball handling, so he has those tired shots every so often. 

Durant isn't going to do a lot of ball handling for you, but you're supposed to have a point guard anyway so that's not a problem in OKC.

The other stuff is a wash, I mean neither of these guys is so good on defense or rebounding where it's obviously one or the other

End of the day though you really can't say Durant is discernibly better than Kobe because he's lucky enough to fit a narrow role for the Thunder. It's not meant to be an insult, because his skills in that role are otherworldly, it's just the truth. It's like saying Shaq fit a narrow role offensively in the triangle...but of course he was one of the most dominant ever in that role. 

I will say though a lot of what makes Westbrook and Harden dangerous towards the basket is the spacing he creates, so he gets credit for that. 

But if you put Durant on a squad like the Lakers of earlier this year with no PG worth a damn he doesn't look like as pristine a scorer...whereas if Kobe ever respected another ballhandler enough to just have plays run for him and be in his spots he'd do 30 and you wouldn't have the "bu-bu-but 30 shots!" peanut gallery either.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

As far as Paul, I think people just aren't accustomed to the point guard being the dominant factor...a PG hasn't been the man on a title team since Isiah IIRC, and there's an inclination to credit Parker as a product of Duncan and Billups as the closer/leader of a collective in Detroit, there's little misconception that they were what Jordan, Duncan, Kobe, Dirk were.

PGs over the past 20ish years have a history of being nice underdog stories, but then for some reason noone's been able to get over the hump, and that's led to people not really knowing why they don't like Paul over Dwight/Rose/Kobe. I can be honest and say I don't have a huge reason for Howard over Paul except for the size thing.

We can more easily say "Dwight does what Duncan did for his title teams, or LeBron what Jordan/Kobe did" and be done with it...we're just going to have to see Chris or Derrick do it and set the standard before they get their respect.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Dre said:


> See with Durant vs. Kobe....Obviously Durant is more efficient, but if you wonder why that is you question who really is a better individual player.
> 
> I feel like Kobe is more prone to the bad shots because he's so stubborn about his and doesn't have a Westbrook to fight for shots with, so they're gonna fly. Also he does more for his offense than Durant does in terms of ball handling, so he has those tired shots every so often.
> 
> ...


The Durant/Kobe debate isn't really a big deal for this discussion to me, mostly because both are better than Chris Paul. You can break down his game all you want, with the passing, efficient scoring, ball hawking, etc. but at the end of the day, you're talking about the absolute best players in the world. 

I have a very hard time saying yes, Chris Paul is undoubtedly better than Dwight Howard, Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, etc. when in his 7 year career he's won exactly one playoff series. You just can't make that argument when you're talking about the 2nd best player in the entire world. When you're discussing whether Caron Butler is better than Gerald Wallace or something like that, yea you can excuse not having much of a track record in the playoffs because they're secondary players. But if you're trying to stake a claim to the second best player in the world, you can't just bypass guys who have done it in the playoffs, led teams deep into the playoffs (or all the way) and are still playing at an extremely high level.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Chris Paul lead some really underwhelming teams to the playoffs in New Orleans, and in the first year of him leaving they were what...the third or fourth worst team in the league?

Better yet, he took a team that's had one winning season in the past decade and had them fighting for a 4 seed in the West(which they could have won if VDN didn't sit CP3 in that last game against his wishes).

I understand that playoff performance has barring in conversations like this, but Chris Paul has always played really well in the playoffs so that's not the issue. I mean, here we are talking about Chris Paul's lack of playoff success holding him back in the conversations about being one of the best players in the league, yet the consensus best player has a terrible reputation for not being able to win a ring. At some point it just doesn't matter because the guy we're talking about is just that good.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Paul hasn't had the fortune Kobe, Wade, and Durant have had as far as management committed to putting him in opportunities to compete. I know that sounds like an excuse but it's the truth. 

I'll say it like Minstrel used to say it...all an individual player can do is contribute to his team's efforts to win, and Paul has always done that at as high a level as you need. 

I think it's kind of dismissive to ignore what BJ is saying about his abilities and just focus on team success because you can.

Resume has nothing to do with who I'm taking *today*. Resume is just a proof he can do it thing, that's only effective when you're talking a player like Melo or AI who have whispers about their abilities to lead a winner...but if you have any doubt of Paul's abilities to lead a title team you have bigger issues than can be addressed with this discussion


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Gotta go:

LeBron
Durant
Rose
Howard
Bryant
Wade
Paul


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

I've given explanations as to why I see Paul as an elite player, but nobody has actually been able to repute that except for hobojoe and his playoff logic.

Can we have some actual discussion about this?


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Dre said:


> As far as Paul, I think people just aren't accustomed to the point guard being the dominant factor...a PG hasn't been the man on a title team since Isiah IIRC, and there's an inclination to credit Parker as a product of Duncan and Billups as the closer/leader of a collective in Detroit, there's little misconception that they were what Jordan, Duncan, Kobe, Dirk were.
> 
> PGs over the past 20ish years have a history of being nice underdog stories, but then for some reason noone's been able to get over the hump, and that's led to people not really knowing why they don't like Paul over Dwight/Rose/Kobe. I can be honest and say I don't have a huge reason for Howard over Paul except for the size thing.
> 
> We can more easily say "Dwight does what Duncan did for his title teams, or LeBron what Jordan/Kobe did" and be done with it...we're just going to have to see Chris or Derrick do it and set the standard before they get their respect.


I'll be pulling for Tony Parker and the Spurs to win this year if that will make any type of difference, he's clearly the best player on that team nowadays.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

BlakeJesus said:


> I've given explanations as to why I see Paul as an elite player, but nobody has actually been able to repute that except for hobojoe and his playoff logic.
> 
> Can we have some actual discussion about this?


What's to discuss? I don't think anyone disagrees with what you said about Paul.

Does that make him more valuable than the league leading scorer in Durant though? Who dominates on the score board without being a chucker?

Does it make him currently better than Kobe, a guy who can do anything you ask of him on the court? 

Does it make him better than Rose, last years MVP and the best scoring PG in the game?


I mean, I have personal answers to those questions. No, Yes, Yes. But that's my personal opinion. I like my point guards to set up the offense, not be the consistent primary scoring option like Rose. I also think Kobe has lost a step, but its being covered up by the best front court in the league. And I think Durant just brings too much to the table as a dynamic scorer to pass him up.

All personal opinions. You could argue anyone in the top 5 or even top 10 after Lebron. And even then I think you could argue other players for the #1 and not be crazy. This league has a ton of parity.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

This is such an interesting discussion, because in terms of "completeness" he's absolutely there with James. And this isn't some "jack of all trades, master of none" situation since he's an elite passer, elite shooter and is a legit high impact defender.

The problem that Paul runs into is simple....he hasn't had a great/dominant season since '08-'09. The guy goes through lulls. Last season he spent January and February playing like a rich mans Jrue Holiday. You can't really say he was particularly dominant this season either.

So you have a player whose skill-level is the highest in the league, impact is crazy high BUT whose own production fluctuates from elite level to fringe all-star/all-star reserve.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

And he's not a good defender. I cannot stand it when people say that Chris freaking Paul is one of the best defenders at the position. He's not. Yes, he gets a lot of steals, so did Allen Iverson. It doesn't change the fact that they were/are shitty defenders. He's tiny and gets constantly and consistently abused by bigger and more physical guards. Don't believe me? Watch any Jazz/Hornets matchup in the last 7 years. Or the Denver series in '09 when CP3 lost and was thoroughly outplayed by Billups. Or any recent Clips/Hornets vs. Bulls game.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

Luke said:


> And he's not a good defender. I cannot stand it when people say that Chris freaking Paul is one of the best defenders at the position. He's not. Yes, he gets a lot of steals, so did Allen Iverson. It doesn't change the fact that they were/are shitty defenders. He's tiny and gets constantly and consistently abused by bigger and more physical guards. Don't believe me? Watch any Jazz/Hornets matchup in the last 7 years. Or the Denver series in '09 when CP3 lost and was thoroughly outplayed by Billups. Or any recent Clips/Hornets vs. Bulls game.


I'd say he's a pretty good defender. No, not a lock down Battier/Artest type of defender as they were in their days, but a pretty darn good one. People need to stop equating being bigger means being a better defender. Paul is really good at ball pressure, he's pesky as hell, very vocal on the defensive end and causes opponents to turn the ball over with ball pressure. It ain't just steals. People like to parrot this theory. And if it was, I don't get why people fault him for his steals. When you take a possession away from an opponent, how can that be a bad thing? A steal is just as good if not better than a block. A block doesn't always take the ball away from the opponent but a steal almost always does. He's certainly not a liability on defense. He's not out of position gambling for steals. He's been known to simply take the ball from opponents. I remember a guy wrote about his steals a few seasons ago.



> And it's the way he does what he does. His steals aren't typically the result of "getting in passing lanes." Those are gambling-steals, Allen Iverson steals. Paul actually takes the ball from dudes. "Gimme dat." No point guard, other than maybe Rajon Rondo, pressures the ball, like CP3.


http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/vince_thomas/04/07/paul.20090407/

Also, in that Denver series, Chauncey Billups was Rasual Butler's assignment but people figure since they play the same position, they must've been guarding each other. Point guards posting up is pretty much a lost art these days. Paul is smart enough to not allow himself to be abused and posted up over and over by bigger point guards. I mean heck, if it were all about being bigger, why the hell is he even in this league? Damn near every guard in this league is bigger than he is even though he's nowhere as 'tiny' as he was when he first came into the league. Yeah, he's shorter than most but not really tiny. Back in December why did you even want that tiny shitty defender on your team then?


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

I wouldnt argue that he's number 2...But his damn flopping is ridiculous...I never really got on about it till this year, but jesus christ


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

doctordrizzay said:


> I wouldnt argue that he's number 2...But his damn flopping is ridiculous...I never really got on about it till this year, but jesus christ


A Lebron fan? Calling a player out for flopping?


I'm finally sold that you're a gimmick poster and not just an idiot.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Luke said:


> And he's not a good defender. I cannot stand it when people say that Chris freaking Paul is one of the best defenders at the position. He's not. Yes, he gets a lot of steals, so did Allen Iverson. It doesn't change the fact that they were/are shitty defenders. He's tiny and gets constantly and consistently abused by bigger and more physical guards. Don't believe me? Watch any Jazz/Hornets matchup in the last 7 years. Or the Denver series in '09 when CP3 lost and was thoroughly outplayed by Billups. Or any recent Clips/Hornets vs. Bulls game.


Size doesn't matter as much for defense on PG. Darren Collison is a stand out defender for the PG spot and hes a midget.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

it matters when you allow yourself to be bullied like Luke described

I will say it does no good to fault Paul for not being able to handle Rose and Deron when no individual can.

Furthermore what he delivers on offense at least neutralizes what he gives up...and since it's a team game maybe the teammates Paul helps on offense should be expected to look out for him. Deron consistently posting Paul isn't just a Paul failure, its a team failure. People always ignore the team aspect.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Dre said:


> it matters when you allow yourself to be bullied like Luke described


Getting outscored by D Rose, Deron Williams, or a prime Billups isn't really a knock on someone. Paul plays an all around game. Hes never going to consistently outscore a guy like Rose in a 7 game series. 

People just games way too much by how much 2 players scored.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Dre said:


> it matters when you allow yourself to be bullied like Luke described
> 
> I will say it does no good to fault Paul for not being able to handle Rose and Deron when no individual can.
> 
> Furthermore what he delivers on offense at least neutralizes what he gives up...and since it's a team game maybe the teammates Paul helps on offense should be expected to look out for him. Deron consistently posting Paul isn't just a Paul failure, its a team failure. People always ignore the team aspect.


All of that is fine, but it's shortcomings like this that make me believe he's not the second best player going. I don't know how you can be considered the best (or second best) when your contemporaries consistently outplay you.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

Luke said:


> All of that is fine, but it's shortcomings like this that make me believe he's not the second best player going. I don't know how you can be considered the best (or second best) when your contemporaries consistently outplay you.


So do you think his contemporaries should be #2? Apparently you think if anyone gets 'outplayed' the contemporaries that's doing the outplaying is the better player? Not taking the teams other players/coaches into consideration at all? Deron Williams supposedly outplayed CP3 every time they played but yet was never seriously considered for MVP. He's soooo good at outplaying Paul but has never made an All-NBA first team, an All-Defense team but outplaying a player in any given games apparently means something right? Are there only 2 players on the court when the ball goes up? What does outplaying a player mean again? And I'm not even here to argue Paul being #1, 2, 3, or 4 but some of your logic is very flawed.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

Just back in December you called him the best point guard in the world. How can he be the best point guard in the world if he's getting 'consistently outplayed'? Shouldn't the guys consistently outplaying him be considered the best point guards in the world? December was only 5 months ago.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I think that you can make a great case for Rose being better than Paul. Put Deron Williams in the right situation and he's probably not too far off either. All three of them are great players, but I wouldn't say that any of them are the second best in the league.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)




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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Luke said:


> I think that you can make a great case for Rose being better than Paul. Put Deron Williams in the right situation and he's probably not too far off either. All three of them are great players, but I wouldn't say that any of them are the second best in the league.


I agree.

And just to clarify on the "playoff logic" in my earlier posts, I'm not making a "Player A > Player B because Player A is a "winner" or has rings, Player B does not, end of discussion" type argument. All I'm saying is to me, if we're discussing the _second_ best player in the world, you should at least have some accomplishments in the winning department and leading a team while playing really meaningful games. Simply having Chris Paul does not make you one of the better teams in the league. Who would've even had the Hornets in the playoffs if they hadn't traded him? To me, you can put LeBron or Dwight on any team in the league and instantly become a lock to make the playoffs. Dwight hasn't even played with a real point guard in his entire career, he's simply too good to not lead his team to a lot of wins year in and year out regardless of the team he has around him and regardless of whether he even wants to play for his team. Same goes for LeBron, look at the teams he won 60+ games with. Kevin Durant is getting there, he's an incredible scorer and is now doing it with great efficiency and playing a better all-around game. Kobe was once there, he's obviously lost a step, but I think he's still right up there with the best players in the game. His shortcomings are sometimes overblown because of the ridiculous standards he set for himself. I just don't think you can put Paul ahead of those guys.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

The Magic wouldn't have made the playoffs in the West last year. They may have gotten the 8th seed this year, but just as likely wouldn't have. The Hornets were a better team than they were last year. That argument would hold water if both conferences were equal, but since the West has twice as many competitive teams it just does not have any relevance.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Diable said:


> The Magic wouldn't have made the playoffs in the West last year. They may have gotten the 8th seed this year, but just as likely wouldn't have. The Hornets were a better team than they were last year. That argument would hold water if both conferences were equal, but since the West has twice as many competitive teams it just does not have any relevance.


Care to explain how you came to those conclusions? As far as I can tell, you're just making up your own facts and/or projecting based on your opinions. 

52 wins got the Magic the 4th seed last year in the East and would've been the 5th seed in the West. Not sure where you get off stating that they wouldn't have made the playoffs in the West as if it were a fact. Was the West deeper? Probably. Does that mean you can just slash 10 wins off an Eastern Conference team's total and say with certainty that's what would've happened if they were in the West? No.

Why did 60% of the NBA GMs say that Derrick Rose was the best point guard in the league if Chris Paul was that good last year?


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

hobojoe said:


> Care to explain how you came to those conclusions? As far as I can tell, you're just making up your own facts and/or projecting based on your opinions.
> 
> 52 wins got the Magic the 4th seed last year in the East and would've been the 5th seed in the West. Not sure where you get off stating that they wouldn't have made the playoffs in the West as if it were a fact. Was the West deeper? Probably. Does that mean you can just slash 10 wins off an Eastern Conference team's total and say with certainty that's what would've happened if they were in the West? No.
> 
> Why did 60% of the NBA GMs say that Derrick Rose was the best point guard in the league if Chris Paul was that good last year?


If you can admit that the West was deeper, then you already realize his point.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

BlakeJesus said:


> If you can admit that the West was deeper, then you already realize his point.


His point is to make things up that help his argument and state them as if they were facts. Besides, trying to deny the impact Dwight Howard has on winning/losing games is pretty foolish.

Why did 60% of the NBA GMs say Derrick Rose is the best point guard in the league?


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

hobojoe said:


> His point is to make things up that help his argument and state them as if they were facts. Besides, trying to deny the impact Dwight Howard has on winning/losing games is pretty foolish.
> 
> Why did 60% of the NBA GMs say Derrick Rose is the best point guard in the league?


His point was that the West is deeper than the East, thus a 4 seed in a weaker conference does not equivocate to a similar seeding in the stronger conference. It's not rocket science, it's called objectivity.

Chris Paul had a major knee surgery the year before that, it's well known that you do not recover 100% from those for about 2 years (look at the way KG is playing now compared to his first season back after his knee surgery).

Derrick Rose also had the luxury of playing on the single best regular season team in the league last year. I'll be curious to see a similar poll re-done after next season, especially if Rose looks a step slower next season coming back from his ACL injury.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

BlakeJesus said:


> His point was that the West is deeper than the East, thus a 4 seed in a weaker conference does not equivocate to a similar seeding in the stronger conference. It's not rocket science, it's called objectivity.


It's objectivity to make up numbers/projections and present them as fact? Like I said, the West was pretty deep last year. It's not imbalanced like it was in the mid 2000s, or even two years ago. You can't just make outlandish statements, disregard the circumstances that contribute to a team's record in any given year (like having nothing to play for over the last few _weeks_ of the season because they were essentially locked into the 4 seed), disregard reality, make up very specific projections and not expect to be called out on it.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

CP3 certainly showed tonight that he is infact the 2nd best player in the league. Mike Conley though, that guy is a great PG.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

8 points in overtime, 4-5 from the floor. 27 points, 9 rebounds, 7 assists, and only 2 TO's.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I mean that just invites Kobe or someone to have a good game and then they do the same


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

If Kobe has a great game and beats up on the Thunder, I think that would make me talk more about Durant than Kobe.

Chris Paul's team was the underdog coming into this series, and hobojoe has already brought up the fact that Chris Paul has only won one playoff series ever. For him to have a big overtime and win the game, putting his team up 3-1 against the favored opponent is actually quite relevant to what we're talking about.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Of the top 10 players in this series, a pretty strong argument could be made for Memphis having 8 of them. Chris Paul makes that big of a difference.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

BlakeJesus said:


> If Kobe has a great game and beats up on the Thunder, I think that would make me talk more about Durant than Kobe.


Why


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I do remember when Luke was trying to insinuate Paul wasn't a great Playoff performer based on his lows...but highs like this undercut that. Everyone has bad playoff games.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

If CP3 can somehow will this Clippers team to beat San Antonio or even push this series to 7 games, he will get back into the conversation for top 3 in the league.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Dre said:


> I do remember when Luke was trying to insinuate Paul wasn't a great Playoff performer based on his lows...but highs like this undercut that. Everyone has bad playoff games.


Highs like this absolutely undercut what I was talking about. I have a lot more respect for him after this Memphis series, he was great. But at the time he didn't have this series under his belt and his playoff resume wasn't as good.

I might even agree with RWE at this point. If he beats the Spurs (or comes really close) while severely outplaying Tony Parker I could definitely rationalize him being ranked so highly.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Well maybe I spoke too soon.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

He's a top 8 player in the league. I don't think he was ever quite top 2.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

I didn't want to be the one to bump this, but yea, he's not the 2nd best player in the world. You can't suck while your team gets swept in the 2nd round and claim to be better than all but one player in the world.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Just clarifying that everyone knew he was injured this past series and could barely run.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Hyperion said:


> Just clarifying that everyone knew he was injured this past series and could barely run.


He's not the second best player in the league.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

He is certainly in the mix for it.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> He is certainly in the mix for it.


I say Durant is second in the league.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Hyperion said:


> Just clarifying that everyone knew he was injured this past series and could barely run.


He very clearly was not playing at anything close to 100%.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Perhaps if your teammates knew how to operate in a half court/pick and roll setting they wouldn't look so shitty while you were hurt and you could extend into another playoff series to showcase yourself relatively healthy. 

DeAndre and even Blake to an extent are not the same players once it's not run and gun and you actually have to move around the halfcourt to create opportunities. It's not like his teammates really gave him much help this time around, and anytime a PG is injured and his teammates can't support him this is what happens. 

I don't think that has anything to do with why I would rather have him over Durant, Kobe, Wade, etc. Anyone except Dwight and LeBron


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

To expand on what Dre said, the extent to which Blake is worse than David West in reading pick-and-roll situations (and in making the mid range shot that often follows) cannot be overestimated.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

R-Star said:


> I say Durant is second in the league.


Yes. I agree, but on a given night, paul could definitely outplay durant with both having good games). Paul is the pg in the league


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Chris Paul ? you must be smoking crack. He's not even the best point guard in the NBA.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

R-Star said:


> I say Durant is second in the league.


Well said R-Star.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Oh, and people can quit playing the injury card. If a dude is injured damn near every then it stops being a legitimate excuse.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

So that's not an excuse for why a guy had limited production? I understand what you're trying to say but your wording is impossible.

What is the reason Paul stopped playing so well in San Antonio...the reason he had a down year last year. Is there no reason now?


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## ~Styles~ (May 1, 2006)

When you breakdown....you breakdown...durability becomes an important attribute when evaluating the importance of players. You have to be at your peak at crunch time. If it happens once...fair enough...but if you cant stay healthy (say 90%... players always play with injuries) it should factor against them.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

That's a better way of saying it then "it's no excuse"...like dude if a guy clearly tears his MCL his history has no bearing on that being a legitimate reason for a lack of production.

If you want to say his injuries make him too much of a risk (in your opinion) to be in this discussion of who you want ala McGrady circa mid 2000s that's different.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Paul breaks down every year because he is the ONLY reason that team can sniff the playoffs. If Paul had players that weren't severely limited offensively and sieves defensively, then he would be more durable.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Well Manu has broken down on the Spurs rather frequently lately and he's a 6th man. I can't support that one


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

He's a sixth man who plays starter minutes. If we're playing the"yeah but he's not healthy all the time" game, then Steve Nash is once again the best pg in the league.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

23AJ said:


> Chris Paul ? you must be smoking crack. He's not even the best point guard in the NBA.


:shaq:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Hyperion said:


> He's a sixth man who plays starter minutes. If we're playing the"yeah but he's not healthy all the time" game, then Steve Nash is once again the best pg in the league.


You just want that to happen anyway


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