# Kobe starting to get fed up with lack of talent.



## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/la-sp-plaschke25apr25,1,3143763.column?page=1&coll=la-headlines-sports-nba-lakers


Bryant is being pushed to brink
April 25, 2007


PHOENIX — It was the darkest moment of a quarter blackened with shame.

With 4:32 left in the second quarter Tuesday, Kobe Bryant drove through three Phoenix Suns before being fouled in front of the basket.

It was the kind of tough play the Lakers had been avoiding. It was the sort of effort the Lakers had been missing.

Yet as Bryant walked to the foul line, he walked alone.

No teammate slapped his hand. No teammate patted his back. No teammate even behaved remotely like a teammate.

Not only didn't the Lakers seem to care about the Phoenix Suns, they didn't seem to care about each other.


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## ¹²³ (Jan 8, 2003)

He shouldn't be complaining.

Trade Kobe. :biggrin:


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## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

I'd be fed up too. Kobe deserves alot better than this garbage he has. If Kobe shoots too much he's a ballhog, if he passes he's too passive. If the teamamtes are doing bad, it's his fault. This, that, and the other. I'd be losing it too if I was Kobe. Kobe just can't win. He's the best player today, and just like KG his prime is getting wasted by a bad GM.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Screw Kobe. He is the one that said he was tired of being a sidekick.


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

Its true. Kobe needs talent around him. I was astonished yesterday to see a lineup of Sasha, Mo, Lamar, Cook and Bynum. How could anyone win anything with that lineup let alone a playoff game?


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## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Screw Kobe. He is the one that said he was tired of being a sidekick.



Well I can't argue that point. But what happened happened and that was then. This is now. Kobe now is the best player in the league who is having this amazing prime of his wasted by Mitchy boy.


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## AllEyezonTX (Nov 16, 2006)

*This is how one Laker fan described the supporting cast of LA.*

Luke Walton - A glorified bench player

Sasha Vujacic - The European version of a poodle.

Lamar Odom - the guy is horrible as a second-scoring option.

Kwame Brown - He's the lost relative of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles... and he's got webbed hands to prove it.

Jordan Farmar - Michael Jordan you are not.

Brian Cook - what do you get when you mix peanut butter with puppy crap?

Smush Parker - He's playing the role of Sissy Spacek in the movie "Carrie."

Shammond Williams - A Chihuahua on crack.


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## koberules24 (Nov 12, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> Screw Kobe. He is the one that said he was tired of being a sidekick.


When was he ever quoted saying that? God forbid Kobe can't win a championship with the likes of Kwame Brown and Smush Parker. _How dare that ******* complain about the lack of talent._


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> Screw Kobe. He is the one that said he was tired of being a sidekick.


Yeah I agree with you completely. Kobe just isnt cut out to be the leader of a championship i guess.


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

koberules24 said:


> When was he ever quoted saying that? God forbid Kobe can't win a championship with the likes of Kwame Brown and Smush Parker. _How dare that ******* complain about the lack of talent._


How long have you been a Lakers fan for? Why do you think Shaq left. HELLO!


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

koberules24 said:


> When was he ever quoted saying that? God forbid Kobe can't win a championship with the likes of Kwame Brown and Smush Parker. _How dare that ******* complain about the lack of talent._


He was quoted as saying that in Phil Jackson's book <u>The Last Season</u>



Carbo04 said:


> Well I can't argue that point. But what happened happened and that was then. This is now. Kobe now is the best player in the league who is having this amazing prime of his wasted by Mitchy boy.


I'm never forgiving anyone associatated with the trading of Shaq. Primarily Buss and Kobe.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

At least everyone recognizes that the team isn't good enough. Garnett had a similar supporting cast from 2000-2003 and he was hated on for not making the second round by everyone in the media and most fans.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Just like the old saying goes...careful what you wish for, it may come true. This is what Kobe wanted.


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

Mateo said:


> At least everyone recognizes that the team isn't good enough. Garnett had a similar supporting cast from 2000-2003 and he was hated on for not making the second round by everyone in the media and most fans.


No **** this team isnt good. Buss better start the ****ing phones for KG or Gasol or JO or someone else who can help Kobe win because us Laker fans are getting pretty much ****ing sick of this.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

Why does everyone blame Kobe for Shaq's departure. Some of you guys act as if Kobe had a gun pointed to Shaqs head and said if you don't leave I am going to kill you.
Shaq is an adult who made is decision, and Kobe is just a just a player, he doesn't own the Lakers, he is not the GM, he is not the coach.
Shaq left because he wanted more than 30 million a year long term contract, but he wasn't going to work hard, so Buss and Mitch got rid of him.
I am sure if Shaq accepted less money, Buss would have been more than happy to sign sign.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Causeway said:


> Just like the old saying goes...careful what you wish for, it may come true. This is what Kobe wanted.


Wrong! Who in their right mind wants to play for a team of bench warmers with no heart?? Kobe wants to be the primary man ON A CONTENDER and i personally am sick of hearing all this "You made your bed..." "Well you got what you wanted.." bull****! Kobe doesnt like losing! Nobody WANTS to lose! Kobe was ready to lead when Shaq was here and it was Shaqs ego that got in the way of that.


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## Kyle (Jul 1, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Screw Kobe. He is the one that said he was tired of being a sidekick.


Exactly. Kobe's the one who pushed for it to be his team. And just like the saying goes:

"Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."

He ran the talent out of town and now he's paying the consequences. I am glad that the game went like it did last night, it was a national display of just how bad the talent (or lack there of) is that is surrounding Kobe. I think Mitch will FINALLY put some parts around Kobe this offseason.


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## koberules24 (Nov 12, 2006)

Theonee said:


> Why does everyone blame Kobe for Shaq's departure. Some of you guys act as if Kobe had a gun pointed to Shaqs head and said if you don't leave I am going to kill you.
> Shaq is an adult who made is decision, and Kobe is just a just a player, he doesn't own the Lakers, he is not the GM, he is not the coach.
> Shaq left because he wanted more than 30 million a year long term contract, but he wasn't going to work hard, so Buss and Mitch got rid of him.
> I am sure if Shaq accepted less money, Buss would have been more than happy to sign sign.


At what point did Kobe EVER demand that Shaq be traded? *I'm not sure Phil Jackson is the most credible source considering his book was meant to slam Kobe.*

**Here's the typical Shaq fan timeline of events:*

End of June '04: Phil Jackson and ownership make mutual decision to part ways.

Shortly there after Shaq publicly and privately demands to be traded (His wife even went on ET if you remember)

Kobe Bryant becomes free agent and is heavily pursued by teams across the league

*Kobe Bryant decides to get together and concoct a mass conspiracy with Jerry Buss to get Shaq out of town (b/c you know who would want to play with best center in the league?)*

*Shaq is victimized and forced to retreat to his new Miami mansion
Meanwhile Kobe Bryant and Jerry Buss plot on how they can destroy the Lakers....*


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Seriously **** Shaq. He is washed up. They weren't winning titles if Shaq was still here anyway and Kobe would have walked. So I could careless if a Shaq-o-phile misses him.


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## koberules24 (Nov 12, 2006)

HKF said:


> Seriously **** Shaq. He is washed up. They weren't winning titles if Shaq was still here anyway and Kobe would have walked. So I could careless if a Shaq-o-phile misses him.


Exactly, that team wasn't going anywhere. *Instead of being young and stupid they'd arthritic and senile.
*
*Oh and FYI to all the Shaq fans: LEADERS DON'T DEMAND MORE MONEY EVERY TIME THEIR TEAM MAKES THE PLAYOFFS....THEY ALSO DON'T TURN AROUND AND TRASH THEIR FORMER ORGANIZATIONS B/C THEY'RE ENVIOUS OF THE PLAYER THEY KEPT INSTEAD(KOBE).*


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## Omega (Apr 11, 2005)

yeah i bet shaq is envious. hes probably so mad that he hasnt been able to do anything with the team hes been traded too.. oh wait.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Omega said:


> yeah i bet shaq is envious. hes probably so mad that he hasnt been able to do anything with the team hes been traded too.. oh wait.


He was envious. so envious that he finally took the time out in the offseason to get his fat *** in shape...funny how it took a trade to the heat to finally motivate him. Sounds like a leader to me...


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## koberules24 (Nov 12, 2006)

CubanLaker said:


> He was envious. so envious that he finally took the time out in the offseason to get his fat *** in shape...funny how it took a trade to the heat to finally motivate him. Sounds like a leader to me...


Keep Preaching, Brother. You're on a roll.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

I still feel that if anybody was in Shaq's shoes they would have ask to be traded in some form.

The situation downfall started when Jerry West left after 2001. Shaq lost the man that he respected the most in the Laker organization. West was the only one that could settle both Kobe and Shaq down when needed. Shaq was then left with Phil. Even with rumors about Kobe becoming more of a focal point, and Shaq not getting his extention, Shaq still had Phil who was wiling to baby him to having his way. Think of it as Shaq having a loving mother when Buss made him angry. Buss then does not ask for Shaq's mother (Phil Jackson) to return. Now Shaq has nobody on his side. Why would he want to stay with and organization that he doesn't respect nor does he think they know what they're doing. As for Bryant, Shaq's disliking for him IMO is only because the Buss family supports him. Why do you think Shaq isn't talking to Phil Jackson anymore? Because Phil went to the Buss family. Eveything has to do with Buss.

So I say somebody needs to buy the Lakers from Jerry Buss, then use some common sense and rehire Jerry West so that Kobe can finaly get the team he deserves


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Screw Kobe. He is the one that said he was tired of being a sidekick.


Kobe may have said that, but he never asked for one good player (Lamar Odom), a good bench player (Luke Walton) and a bunch of scrubs.


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

I'm sure I left the drama in high school. Kobe stop being a pansy


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Now you're just going off the deep end. Yeah, Kobe is the one who demanded to be traded. Oh wait, that would be Shaq! Wanting to be the man does not automatically imply, "I want to be the man on a ****ty team!" If we keep Shaq and give him the albatross extension he asked for, we can't afford another player for a long damn time.

C - Shaq
PF - Slava/Cook
SF - Devean/Luke
SG - Rush
PG - Payton/Fisher

Newsflash, this team doesn't win **** and wouldn't have the resources to improve. No cornerstone to build around. And don't give me that MLE crap. Plus, don't you think it is a little odd that Shaq just happen to all of a sudden get in shape when he was dealt to Miami? If he stays in LA, he doesn't get into shape despite getting the extension. Which means he would go on to miss roughly half the year instead of just a third of it. For all of Kobe's faults, coasting and lack of work ethic is not and has never been one of them. Just let that Shaq-less lineup soak in while he milks the injuries. Phil Jackson definetely would have bolted and Shaq probably would end up demanding a trade the next season because the team was so awful with little chance of improving. Trading him was the right move. Trading him for absolute garbage was the mistake. Caron would have looked great next to Kobe this year, but we decide to trade him for Kwame mother****ing Brown. Point your finger at the front office.

I realize that you feel the need to be a contrarian and be different from everyone here just to be different. Since I have ever been a member of BBF, the Lakers forum is the most objective and has the least amount of Kobe fanboys ever. I'm always there to criticize Kobe when he goes into chuck mode or plays lazily on the defensive end. But after watching your ramble about not placing scapegoats, it seems what you really meant was put all of the blame on Kobe regardless of what happens, because it is a different view than everyone else here. If our incompetent management could put actually put a decent playoff team together rather than sign a bunch of "triangle friendly" scrubs, I doubt anyone would be saying "Screw Kobe".


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

HKF said:


> Seriously **** Shaq. He is washed up. They weren't winning titles if Shaq was still here anyway and Kobe would have walked. So I could careless if a Shaq-o-phile misses him.


You aren't even a Laker fan nor a Laker forum regular though, so what gives you the authority to wander in here and tell us what you care about?

Shaq won 3 titles for my team, I'm loyal to that.

Shaq-o-phile huh? I am a Los Angeles Laker fan. You are a Kobe Bryant fan.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> Now you're just going off the deep end. Yeah, Kobe is the one who demanded to be traded. Oh wait, that would be Shaq! Wanting to be the man does not automatically imply, "I want to be the man on a ****ty team!" If we keep Shaq and give him the albatross extension he asked for, we can't afford another player for a long damn time.
> 
> C - Shaq
> PF - Slava/Cook
> ...


What is your point with all this? I never argued that it wasn't smart business to trade Shaq, and I doubt Kobe had this type of foresight. Kobe just wanted to be the man and wasn't worrying about "lack of resources" or anything you discuss here.


> I realize that you feel the need to be a contrarian and be different from everyone here just to be different. Since I have ever been a member of BBF, the Lakers forum is the most objective and has the least amount of Kobe fanboys ever. I'm always there to criticize Kobe when he goes into chuck mode or plays lazily on the defensive end. But after watching your ramble about not placing scapegoats, it seems what you really meant was put all of the blame on Kobe regardless of what happens, because it is a different view than everyone else here. If our incompetent management could put actually put a decent playoff team together rather than sign a bunch of "triangle friendly" scrubs, I doubt anyone would be saying "Screw Kobe".


You have your beliefs, I'm not going to listen to a player who stated that his own perfance was to NOT play with one of the most talented players of all time complain about lack of talent.

To me that is just common sense. And I'm calling him out on stupid comments, not play.


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## onelakerfan (Nov 11, 2004)

Here is the deal.
How many of you that are complaining that Kobe chased Shaq out of town have jobs. Here is a scenario for you; you are getting paid lass then this coworker of yours, putting more hour and working way harder and ready to work everyday, but your coworker gets all of the credit and the praise, gets all of the recognition and more money. HOW THE HELL WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT. Half jobs, lazy m*&*((&* have no room in my life I don’t care how good they are. We had far more talent back then, then we have now. In Orlando Shaq had great talent around him he did not win. If one person is spoiled and overly dramatic and has some feminine side to him (I need to be taken care of) is Shaq. I rather loose with people that work hard (this laker team does not work hard) and try their best then win with people that is lazy, ignorant and just *(&**&().
Trade Kobe, that is just dumb.
out


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Kobe doesn't really give Odom any room to play his game..


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

Amareca said:


> Kobe doesn't really give Odom any room to play his game..


thanks for stating the obvious.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

The way i see it Kobe shouldnt have to GIVE Lamar anything. Lamar should have the balls to take it.


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## onelakerfan (Nov 11, 2004)

Amareca said:


> Kobe doesn't really give Odom any room to play his game..


 That is a dim thing to say. explained that comment because kobe gives him lots of room. ODOMS blood flows in a rate of a turtle walk and he has a had time reacting to games speed and changes. it might be all the pot he smoked when he was young but the guy has no energy. with that size you should be running over people. he gets lots of touches, post someone up ask for the ball don't just wait for the coach to tell you to be agressive.


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## onelakerfan (Nov 11, 2004)

i can't beleve you agreed with him, kobe was out of the game in the second quorter and odom had all the room to take over, but you know what we had brown shooting the ball. we had vuachichka shooting the ball. I think phil intentionally put less talant around odom to make him be more agressive but the guy thinks it is still pre season


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## nguyen_milan (Jun 28, 2005)

Damn, one thing i know: this is gonna be an ugly summer unless there are some changes


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

nguyen_milan said:


> Damn, one thing i know: this is gonna be an ugly summer unless there are some changes


Best post in this thread:cheers: Straight to the point


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> You aren't even a Laker fan nor a Laker forum regular though, *so what gives you the authority to wander in here and tell us what you care about?*
> 
> Shaq won 3 titles for my team, I'm loyal to that.
> 
> Shaq-o-phile huh? I am a Los Angeles Laker fan. You are a Kobe Bryant fan.


I don't understand the point of that remark. You are a community Moderator and you just discouraged a member to post in a public forum - just because he posted 'Shaq-o-phile'.

You are loyal to what you support which is the Los Angeles Lakers. He is loyal to what he supports which apparently is Kobe Bryant. There should not be any debate on which member has chosen the right side - at least that what it looks like when you stated that you're a Los Angeles Laker fan and he is just Kobe Bryant fan.

Anyways.

There is only one thing that is true, Shaq was traded. Whether Shaq demanded a trade or Kobe demanded the trade is speculation. That's why a lot of posters are attacking what you posted. The thread was simply a pitty party for Kobe's situation, but as if to hold a grudge and to nick pick, the subject has changed to whether or not Kobe deserves his situation. That subject can't work because the purpose is only negative. If Kobe had a championship team right now, not only would nobody really mention 'Kobe throwing out Shaq' but if they were ask if Kobe deserves the championship team then most *will *say no. As you can see if both sides of the subject turn out to be negative then the subject itself was ment to be negative, in this case against Kobe Bryant.

I could be wrong so to test I ask you this, Jamal:

If Kobe had a championship team right now, would you say that Kobe deserves the team?


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

Kobe fans automatically becomes Laker fans because they will be rooting for Kobe, which is as automatic rooting for the Lakers. Kobe fans want Kobe to succeed, which means they want lakers to succeed.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

AllEyezonTX said:


> *This is how one Laker fan described the supporting cast of LA.*
> 
> Luke Walton - A glorified bench player
> 
> ...



I disagree with some of those...

Luke Walton is a very very good player. However, he is not going to be the third best player on any great team. We could contend with him as the starter, but he would have to be the 4th or 5th best starter.

Lamar Odom is also a very very good player...sometimes great. However, similar to Luke, he isn't going to be the second best player on a great team. Third best? It's more than possible.

Kwame Brown? The guy is overpaid, but when he's healthy, he is a decent player and a solid big man. His problem is that he is never healthy, so he will never be a reliable starting big man. As a 6th man off the bench, he would do wonders for a team.

Sasha, Cook, Shammond and Smush are garbage...but Shammond is the best out of all of them.

Jordan Farmar is actually think is going to be a very good PG in this league, maybe even by next year. I see his peak as being a 13ppg/7apg player.

I see our best-case scenario at improving this team as...

1) Trade Andrew Bynum, Jordan Farmar, Kwame Brown, and a future first round pick for Jermaine O'Neal

2) Sign Charlie Bell to the MLE

3) Re-sign Walton, Turiaf and Mihm

PG: Charlie Bell...Sasha Vujacic...(19th pick?)
SG: Kobe Bryant...Maurice Evans...(19th pick?)
SF: Luke Walton...Vladimir Radmanovic
PF: Lamar Odom...Ronny Turiaf...Brian Cook
C: Jermaine O'Neal...Chris Mihm

With JO, we get our second best player and the guy that brings us to that next level. A healthy Mihm would give us a great backup C who is a threat to score on the inside. Walton and Turiaf will both only get better. By adding Charlie Bell, the team gets a huge boost in terms of consistent outside shooting, and a healthy Radmanovic would also go a long way towards that as well.

Considering how Bell would be a pretty big defensive upgrade over Smush, and JO is one of the best defensive big men in the game...we would also be much better on the defensive end. I think this team could win the championship, and it would only take a couple moves.


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## Silk D (Feb 6, 2006)

talk about off-topic. how the hell did this turn into a shaq debate? it's been three years guys, what's done is done. nothing changes the fact that kobe needs help, bad.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Damian Necronamous said:


> I disagree with some of those...
> 
> Luke Walton is a very very good player. However, he is not going to be the third best player on any great team. We could contend with him as the starter, but he would have to be the 4th or 5th best starter.
> 
> ...


Very interesting. i think i like it, but doesnt JO play the 4? You think he could get aclimated to guarding 5s??

repped


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

The One said:


> I don't understand the point of that remark. You are a community Moderator and you just discouraged a member to post in a public forum - just because he posted 'Shaq-o-phile'.
> 
> You are loyal to what you support which is the Los Angeles Lakers. He is loyal to what he supports which apparently is Kobe Bryant. There should not be any debate on which member has chosen the right side - at least that what it looks like when you stated that you're a Los Angeles Laker fan and he is just Kobe Bryant fan.
> 
> ...


Not to mention he is loyal to Shaq for three rings.. But just like Shaq has Wade in Maimi.. He also had Kobe here in LA. No Kobe would have resulted in Orlando #2, no rings. Rather people love or Hate Kobe, LA wouldn't have gotten Past teams like the Spurs without Kobe and Shaq working together.


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## Maddocks (Jun 16, 2006)

play like that worries me, that he will get so mad he will just leave the lakers.

i want him to play on the lakers till he retires. not leave because of the lack of mitch doing anything other then looking in the mirror telling himself hes a winner.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

onelakerfan said:


> Here is the deal.
> How many of you that are complaining that Kobe chased Shaq out of town have jobs. Here is a scenario for you; you are getting paid lass then this coworker of yours, putting more hour and working way harder and ready to work everyday, but your coworker gets all of the credit and the praise, gets all of the recognition and more money. HOW THE HELL WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT. Half jobs, lazy m*&*((&* have no room in my life I don’t care how good they are. We had far more talent back then, then we have now. In Orlando Shaq had great talent around him he did not win. If one person is spoiled and overly dramatic and has some feminine side to him (I need to be taken care of) is Shaq. <b>I rather loose with people that work hard</b> (this laker team does not work hard) and try their best then win with people that is lazy, ignorant and just *(&**&().
> Trade Kobe, that is just dumb.
> out


Ok, then don't complain when you do lose.



> I don't understand the point of that remark. You are a community Moderator and you just discouraged a member to post in a public forum - just because he posted 'Shaq-o-phile'.
> 
> You are loyal to what you support which is the Los Angeles Lakers. He is loyal to what he supports which apparently is Kobe Bryant. There should not be any debate on which member has chosen the right side - at least that what it looks like when you stated that you're a Los Angeles Laker fan and he is just Kobe Bryant fan.
> 
> Anyways.


I didn't discourage anyone to post. I discouraged people from entering a board and saying " I don't care what you think." Don't read my posts, hell put me on ignore... just don't post that crap and chilidish names.



> There is only one thing that is true, Shaq was traded. Whether Shaq demanded a trade or Kobe demanded the trade is speculation. That's why a lot of posters are attacking what you posted. The thread was simply a pitty party for Kobe's situation, but as if to hold a grudge and to nick pick, the subject has changed to whether or not Kobe deserves his situation. That subject can't work because the purpose is only negative. If Kobe had a championship team right now, not only would nobody really mention 'Kobe throwing out Shaq' but if they were ask if Kobe deserves the championship team then most will say no. As you can see if both sides of the subject turn out to be negative then the subject itself was ment to be negative, in this case against Kobe Bryant.
> 
> I could be wrong so to test I ask you this, Jamal:


All I did in this first post was say that Kobe wanted to be the man of his own team. Apparently he didn't stop to think that it would be a lot harder without Shaq.


> If Kobe had a championship team right now, would you say that Kobe deserves the team?


YES! If you deliver my team a ring you can do what you want. Including be fat and whatever else you are complaining that Shaq did.



> Not to mention he is loyal to Shaq for three rings.. But just like Shaq has Wade in Maimi.. He also had Kobe here in LA. No Kobe would have resulted in Orlando #2, no rings. Rather people love or Hate Kobe, LA wouldn't have gotten Past teams like the Spurs without Kobe and Shaq working together.


Of course, but Shaq was the leader and best player on those teams. If Kobe wins a ring he won't do it by himself either.


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## P-Rez25 (Nov 24, 2006)

Theonee said:


> Why does everyone blame Kobe for Shaq's departure. Some of you guys act as if Kobe had a gun pointed to Shaqs head and said if you don't leave I am going to kill you.
> Shaq is an adult who made is decision, and Kobe is just a just a player, he doesn't own the Lakers, he is not the GM, he is not the coach.
> Shaq left because he wanted more than 30 million a year long term contract, but he wasn't going to work hard, so Buss and Mitch got rid of him.
> I am sure if Shaq accepted less money, Buss would have been more than happy to sign sign.


its amazing how people forget that Shaq demanded 30 million, if he wouldve gotten that Kobe wouldve def left the Lakers and we would be in a worse postion to improve the team. an aging Shaq has little to no value right now. atleast we can ship Odom, Kwame and the rest out to improve the team. at first i was saying that Bynum shouldnt be traded but when i look at how Kidd is playing right now i just sit here pissed off at the GM for not pullin the trigger. we need to win NOW not 5 years from now when Kobe cant carry us anymore. im hopin that we trade Bynum for Kidd like we was supposed to and maybe use Odom and others to get atleast Jermaine ONeal. the teams in the West are TOO stacked for one guy to beat them. if we was in the East we would have the Cavs 2 seed. its Lebron and nodody else, same with us Kobe and nobody else......i know im hopin at this point for something to happen but if Kupchak doesnt act fast we might alienate Kobe and god forbid be worse than the Clippers......


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> All I did in this first post was say that Kobe wanted to be the man of his own team. Apparently he didn't stop to think that it would be a lot harder without Shaq.


This is very true ........*if* Kobe said he wanted shaq to go. We can't go by possible intentions. Kobe said he was tired of being a sidekick. He never mention that he wanted Shaq to leave - just to be above Shaq. The Organization made the next move. So in this case it's more that kobe should have kept his mouth shut, because of him saying that, the Organizztion took it upond themselves to get rid of Shaq. I'm pretty sure Kobe wasn't complaining when they traded Shaq but there is no record of that being his intentions. I'm just trying to be fair for truth's sake.



Jamel Irief said:


> YES! If you deliver my team a ring you can do what you want. Including be fat and whatever else you are complaining that Shaq did.


Great  you proved me wrong.

You Are A True Los Angeles Laker Fan:cheers:


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

The One said:


> This is very true ........*if* Kobe said he wanted shaq to go. We can't go by possible intentions. Kobe said he was tired of being a sidekick. He never mention that he wanted Shaq to leave - just to be above Shaq. The Organization made the next move. So in this case it's more that kobe should have kept his mouth shut, because of him saying that, the Organizztion took it upond themselves to get rid of Shaq. I'm pretty sure Kobe wasn't complaining when they traded Shaq but there is no record of that being his intentions. I'm just trying to be fair for truth's sake.


Well the question was "Would Shaq returning influence your decision to resign?"

Kobe's answer was "Yes, I am tired of being a sidekick."

It's hard not to read his possible intentions there.


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## GPS (Mar 28, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Well the question was "Would Shaq returning influence your decision to resign?"
> 
> Kobe's answer was "Yes, I am tired of being a sidekick."
> 
> It's hard not to read his possible intentions there.


This is what I don't get, they both tried to run each other out of town, why only Kobe gets the blame?


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

GPS said:


> This is what I don't get, they both tried to run each other out of town, why only Kobe gets the blame?


Because people hate him more for whatever reason. Whether it's his attitude, his arrogance, what happened in Colorado, etc. Kobe hasn't been liked for quite some time now, whereas Shaq, for the most part, has been well liked by many. Therefore, Kobe gets the blame.


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

Basel57 said:


> Because people hate him more for whatever reason. Whether it's his attitude, his arrogance, what happened in Colorado, etc. Kobe hasn't been liked for quite some time now, whereas Shaq, for the most part, has been well liked by many. Therefore, Kobe gets the blame.



I think this is very true.

However, I think the biggest reason for Shaq's departure was Dr. Buss. He does not like to be showed up. His and Shaq's relationship had been deteriorating for a while (maybe because Kobe was his Golden child or because Shaq was constatly asking for more money.) I think Buss was finally finished with the Diesel when he ran down the court of a preseason game shouting "Show me the Money" while not even in his final year of a contract.

All I can say is, "whatever." None of us really know what happened or what the motivation was. Its over. Now we try to win another championship with the league's best player. All he needs is a little help.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

GPS said:


> This is what I don't get, they both tried to run each other out of town, why only Kobe gets the blame?


Kobe will always get the blame. Im willing to bet that had Shaq stayed and Kobe left, Kobe will still be criticized for leaving a championship squad and Shaq will be commended for staying loyal with the organization.


With Kobe, its always going to be a damn if you do and damn if you dont type of reaction for the rest of his career.


Unless he wins a ring, then people will never...ever stop with this nonsense.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

You can't argue with Jamel regarding Shaq because he is so enamored with him. You'd think Shaq won those titles by himself. Shaq is gone, those titles are over with. Move on. You don't like being called a "Shaq-o-phile," but that is exactly what you are. 

If Shaq stayed and Kobe left, you wouldn't have this vitriol for Shaq, because you would feel Kobe was wrong for leaving. So Shaq can demand a trade, to be overpaid by over 15 million dollars and he's the greatest guy on Earth. Shaq is the biggest phony in the entire league and your amount of adulation for him doesn't change that.


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## koberules24 (Nov 12, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> Well the question was "Would Shaq returning influence your decision to resign?"
> 
> Kobe's answer was "Yes, I am tired of being a sidekick."
> 
> It's hard not to read his possible intentions there.


*Yes, use Phil Jackson's book about slamming Kobe as credible evidence. It's a little hard to see how Jackson would know this in the first place considering he resigned a month before Kobe made his decision to come back.* *Don't sell yourself short: It's a conspiracy.*

*You forget that the Lakers almost traded Kobe Bryant as well (remember the sign and trade with the Bulls?).


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

GPS said:


> This is what I don't get, they both tried to run each other out of town, why only Kobe gets the blame?


I haven't seen any evidence stating that Shaq tried to get Kobe run out of town.



> You can't argue with Jamel regarding Shaq because he is so enamored with him. You'd think Shaq won those titles by himself. Shaq is gone, those titles are over with. Move on. You don't like being called a "Shaq-o-phile," but that is exactly what you are.
> 
> If Shaq stayed and Kobe left, you wouldn't have this vitriol for Shaq, because you would feel Kobe was wrong for leaving. So Shaq can demand a trade, to be overpaid by over 15 million dollars and he's the greatest guy on Earth. Shaq is the biggest phony in the entire league and your amount of adulation for him doesn't change that.


I used to think they were both equally guilty... but then that same summer Payton had beef with Kobe, Phil had beef with Kobe, then even Malone had beef with Kobe. All got along with Shaq. It was clear to me after that.

Then Chucky Atkins came along, wasn't even around for the fiasco and blamed Kobe.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

koberules24 said:


> *Yes, use Phil Jackson's book about slamming Kobe as credible evidence. It's a little hard to see how Jackson would know this in the first place considering he resigned a month before Kobe made his decision to come back.* *Don't sell yourself short: It's a conspiracy.*
> 
> *You forget that the Lakers almost traded Kobe Bryant as well (remember the sign and trade with the Bulls?).


A conspiracy? What are you a Kings fan?

Phil said Kobe told him during their exit interview that happens the day after they got beat by the Pistons.


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## koberules24 (Nov 12, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> I haven't seen any evidence stating that Shaq tried to get Kobe run out of town.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude were you high or something when this was going on? Where have you been? Shaq's biggest beef with Kobe was that he believed management favored Kobe over him and expected them to deal Kobe instead.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Shaq did suggest that Kobe opt out.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Why is it so unreasonable jamel for Kobe to want to be the man I didn't at the time and I don't now see a problem with him wanting to be the man and I think Kobe realized it would be tougher not having Shaq around but that was a challenege he wanted to meet. And Kobe had no chance to influence Shaq staying here so why act like Kobe was guilty of throwing Shaq under the bus when it was crystal clear Buss didn't wanna pay him the big money anymore the same way Reinsdorf in Chicago didn't want to keep that dynasty together anymore in Chicago after 98. 

Kobe's frustration is clear right now he doesn't think Buss wants to go all out to be contenders anymore. He see's Mitch not making any real push to get another star player as evidence that the organization isn't commited to winning instead the team wants to show Kobe off as the prodigy that fans want to see.A show PONY. 

Shaq and Kobe could never have coexisted going forward, because Kobe was never gonna tuck his tail and follow a declining Shaq as his 2nd fiddle. 

And Shaq was never gonna do like he miraculously does with Wade and be Kobe's 2nd fiddle after all the talk between them. 

Why even bring up the Shaq stuff it doesn't apply to the current situation. 

GP, MALONE and Shaq were all past their prime great players who would have never gotten along with a younger, better great player. 

Chucky Atkins doesn't validate ****, caron surely loved Kobe, he was Kobe's 2nd fiddle. 

And the notion that Odom is untouchable is totally ridiculous. 

I also sense waiting on the soft Bynum to become this stud might be even ,more foolish.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

jazzy1 said:


> Why is it so unreasonable jamel for Kobe to want to be the man I didn't at the time and I don't now see a problem with him wanting to be the man and I think Kobe realized it would be tougher not having Shaq around but that was a challenege he wanted to meet. And Kobe had no chance to influence Shaq staying here so why act like Kobe was guilty of throwing Shaq under the bus when it was crystal clear Buss didn't wanna pay him the big money anymore the same way Reinsdorf in Chicago didn't want to keep that dynasty together anymore in Chicago after 98.
> 
> Kobe's frustration is clear right now he doesn't think Buss wants to go all out to be contenders anymore. He see's Mitch not making any real push to get another star player as evidence that the organization isn't commited to winning instead the team wants to show Kobe off as the prodigy that fans want to see.A show PONY.
> 
> ...


I'm done with this. I'm just going to repeat what I said at the beginning of the thread. 

I have no sympathy for a guy whining to management about lack of talent on the roster when management traded talent to accomadate him. Regardless if it's "harder than he thought" to be the man.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> *I'm done with this. I'm just going to repeat what I said at the beginning of the thread. *
> 
> I have no sympathy for a guy whining to management about lack of talent on the roster when management traded talent to accomadate him. Regardless if it's "harder than he thought" to be the man.


You're right. I guess nobody read the argument betweens us. You stated your point already: You are loyal to The Los Angeles Lakers. If you feel anything compromises them winning, whether it's players, coaches, or organization, you are going to be against it. In this case it's Bryant and Mitch. Anything else that is posted for you is them simply trying to change your opinion; which is futile. 

Back to the main subject.

GOD THIS LAKER TEAM STINKS!!!:biggrin:


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

GPS said:


> This is what I don't get, they both tried to run each other out of town, why only Kobe gets the blame?


b/c jemel has always been leaning to shaq's side, not that there is anything wrong with that, everyone plays favorites.

To me, Shaq has always been obnoxious and undedicated. With shaq staying I do not see the team winning any titles. The guy was often out of shape and constantly complaining.

What's funny is you don't mention the numerous times Shaq has tried to get rid of Kobe. Would you want to deal with someone like that? Given the tensions I would choose Kobe over shaq 10 times out of 10. I would have liked a better package for shaq, but you can't expect much when mitch is your GM.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

Do you all you guys that support Shaq not remember Shaq's "company time" comment when he delayed his surgury because he was on "company time". What kind of bs is that?

I have no doubt that Shaq would be a more fun person to hang out with, but given the fact that both players mutually hated each other and it was one or the other, I have no problems with the choice the team made.

Kobe takes bad shots, yes. He is flawed as a human being, most likely. But he is more dedicated to perfecting his craft then anyone else in the league. Regardless of what when down, there is no reason for him to accept Shaq's hostility and more importantly general laziness if he expected to leader of the team.


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## ToTheRack (Dec 15, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> I'm done with this. I'm just going to repeat what I said at the beginning of the thread.
> 
> I have no sympathy for a guy whining to management about lack of talent on the roster *when management traded talent to accomadate him*. Regardless if it's "harder than he thought" to be the man.


I think this statement is why you are receiving so many responses. I think anyone being objective about the situation can tell that management traded Shaq because he was fat and old and wanted 30 million dolls hairs. It just so happened that Kobe also had the desire to be "the guy" on the team. If Kobe was gaga over Shaq and fat Shaq was still asking for a mondo extension, I bet there's a good chance management still makes that move.

Instead Shaq goes to Miami, loses a bunch of weight, decides he doesn't need to purchase that island off the coast and can live on 100 million dollars for the next 5 years. Then he gets mad at Buss for saying Buss might have resigned him if he knew Shaq was going to get into shape and we get a glimpse of the real reason for the break up.


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## Silk D (Feb 6, 2006)

KennethTo said:


> Do you all you guys that support Shaq not remember Shaq's "company time" comment when he delayed his surgury because he was on "company time". What kind of bs is that?


yeah, If shaq had half the dedication as kobe does, they would have put up with each other because they'd still be tearing through the league right now. how anyone can prefer a great player who's a lazy *** over a great player who works his *** off is beyond me.



> Instead Shaq goes to Miami, loses a bunch of weight, decides he doesn't need to purchase that island off the coast and can live on 100 million dollars for the next 5 years. Then he gets mad at Buss for saying Buss might have resigned him if he knew Shaq was going to get into shape and we get a glimpse of the real reason for the break up.


exactly. I loved shaq when he was here, and was very, VERY upset when he got traded. but man, I have such a hatred for him after he settled for some 10 million less to re-sign with the heat, and he got his fat *** into shape because he "always does what he's told". what are you, twelve? sorry shaq, we should've told you that your play would drop off when you weigh 400 lbs


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

My last take on the sahq/Kobe subject:

For the last couple of years playing together, Kobe was the better player of the duo. 
So...


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## koberules24 (Nov 12, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> A conspiracy? What are you a Kings fan?
> 
> Phil said Kobe told him during their exit interview that happens the day after they got beat by the Pistons.


Yes, again the EXIT INTERVIEW---THAT HAPPENED A MONTH BEFORE KOBE RE-SIGNED AND SHAQ GOT TRADED. *AND AGAIN, A FRUSTRATED AND DISGRUNTLED PHIL JACKSON IS NOT A RELIABLE SOURCE.*


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

With a championship now secure, and a long summer of boredom ahead... The bumping of threads continue, mainly in defense of Mitch and Odom. And since all of us who had doubts about Mitch and Odom are simply fickle fans, I thought I'd bump one of my old favorites. 


And let me just say, good work Kobe and thank you on behalf of Jamel Irief, and other such Shaq fans who blamed you for basically everything possible after the dynasty break up. Thanks for your hard work in the off season, playing through pain in the regular season. 

:champagne:




Jamel Irief said:


> Screw Kobe. He is the one that said he was tired of being a sidekick.





Jamel Irief said:


> I'm never forgiving anyone associatated with the trading of Shaq. Primarily Buss and Kobe.


Are they forgiven now that Kobe and the Buss family brought home another ring? Not to mention put together a team (a lot having to do with Kobe's *****ing in the off season)that has a chance to get a couple more? Or should they have invested more into that dinosaur who is "loved" by everyone? 



Jamel Irief said:


> Shaq won 3 titles for my team, I'm loyal to that.
> 
> Shaq-o-phile huh? I am a Los Angeles Laker fan. You are a Kobe Bryant fan.





Jamel Irief said:


> You have your beliefs, I'm not going to listen to a player who stated that his own perfance was to NOT play with one of the most talented players of all time complain about lack of talent.
> 
> To me that is just common sense. And I'm calling him out on stupid comments, not play.


Now after many years of listening to Kobe get attacked by by the media and Shaq fans, it seems that an understanding of just how "wonderful" Shaq was as a teammate has finally emerged.

From the turmoil with his first side kick in Orlando...

Too calling SVG the master of panic and a frontrunner... As well as stating that SVG would let his team down, because he's basically weak minded...

And working behind the scenes to help get SVG fired, and replaced by 
Pat Riley....

From loving Phil Jackson, on too hating Jackson and favoring Pat Riley because he is a "genius", then back to loving Phil Jackson again and now to hating Riley...

To calling out a handful of former Heat teammates and blaming them for the quick decline of the heat in his final year there before being shipped off to a new team....

Now claiming Phil Jackson masterminded the fighting between Shaq and Kobe.. But that's impossible.. Kobe the cancer has to be the only cause of an argument... 

Previously said Jerry Buss is the reason Shaq left town, not Kobe. Were before, when he was traded he referred to Kobe as a "big *****, and that he wanted to choke the life out of Kobe, etc. And that he was a cancer, etc"...

Insulting the man who made him one of the highest paid athletes of all sports, he moved on to Jerry Buss calling him a Senile Old man, who was weak. 

Even Mitch couldn't hide, as he was called classless.. As well as a person lacked the ability to tie his own shoes... (this is the same guy who worked with Shaq to trade him to a team of his choice, so he could have a chance at a fourth ring...) 

And of course rapping about Kobe tasting his *** and more recently rapping about how Kareem wishes he was as good as Shaq.
Jackson Benedict Arnold, and that Jackson force him and Kobe to fighting (wasn't it always Kobe's fault before?), 


Hindsight is not fair of course, but it's held against everyone equally.


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## Ghiman (May 19, 2003)

^^ ouch!


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Now _this_ is an epic bump.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Darth Bryant said:


> Are they forgiven now that Kobe and the Buss family brought home another ring? Not to mention put together a team (a lot having to do with Kobe's *****ing in the off season)that has a chance to get a couple more? Or should they have invested more into that dinosaur who is "loved" by everyone?


Don't worry, I always stay true to what I say. I posted this in this thread-



> YES! If you deliver my team a ring you can do what you want. Including be fat and whatever else you are complaining that Shaq did.


Thank you Kobe, unlike the people that turned on Shaq I will now let you get rid of whatever teammates you don't like, as long as you keep winning those rings. I will never turn on you for the rest of your NBA career. See Darth, you didn't really prove me wrong here. I was railing a guy THAT WANTED TO LEAVE THE TEAM. I never said he's garbage (Odom, Mitch threads) or that we wouldn't win a ring without him.

Nothing I said about Kobe has been proven wrong, thank you and good night.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Amareca posted on this thread. :laugh:


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> Amareca posted on this thread. :laugh:


Yes you need to add him to your Laker Troll.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Don't worry, I always stay true to what I say. I posted this in this thread-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No one ever said that you were even wrong, although I do disagree with many things you think about Kobe or the topic of Kobe vs Shaq itself. The point of this thread was just to simply show you that you are as hypocritical, as well as fickle, as much as any other Laker fan here. But your no different than any of us who were calling out Odom, or Mitch over the last few years, because you did the same with players you disliked for your own reasons, until the end of course when a championship came. Winning makes us all happy, as eluded too... Thats part of being a "typical" fickle Laker fan I suppose. 


:cheers:


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

ouch,ouch, *ouch* and *OUCH!*


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Darth Bryant said:


> No one ever said that you were even wrong, although I do disagree with many things you think about Kobe or the topic of Kobe vs Shaq itself. The point of this thread was just to simply show you that you are as hypocritical, as well as fickle, as much as any other Laker fan here. But your no different than any of us who were calling out Odom, or Mitch over the last few years, because you did the same with players you disliked for your own reasons, until the end of course when a championship came. Winning makes us all happy, as eluded too... Thats part of being a "typical" fickle Laker fan I suppose.
> 
> 
> :cheers:


My main point is I hate this Bill Walton sensationalism style of posting. Fish misses a game tier against Denver and he is called the worst starting PG in playoff history. Than he hits a shot over Nelson and people want to errect statues.

You compared my posts in this thread to the threads about trading Odom for bench players or firing Kupchak and Phil. I don't make these grand statements on purpose. I don't call a guy absolute trash or hype them until I evaluate them for long periods of time. Kobe has always immunity with most Laker fans, and if he didn't you would of seen people calling him a quitter and failure in this thread and saying crazy crap like he will never win without Shaq when this news broke out. I never said any of that. I slammed a guy *that wanted to be traded from my favorite team*. After he _helped_ break up a team that went to the finals (note: I'm not blaming him for the Shaq trade. I never said anything that changed with him winning a championship. Hell I even said I would forgive him if he did win one. 

As we go into the summer we will see some threads on Bynum, Laker fans are really starting to think he might not ever snap out of it. Watching him in the playoffs it was obvious to me that Phil and the quick foul trouble ****ed up his head and he will bounce back. You can tell when he had the ball he was being overly aggressive to hide a lack of confidence, and on the defensive end he would wrap his hands around and foul anyone that came at him. Kid is only 21 and had a lot of pressure and attention on him. I don't want to see trade proposals for Marvin Williams or Tyrus Thomas.

When I played basketball I was the same way, never got to highs during the wins or too low during the losses. Not saying it's the right way or anything, but it frustrates me when people don't learn from history.

And the stuff about Shaq, you posted the recent comments on him like I got proven wrong on him to. I think Shaq is the same guy he was when I made these posts back in the day. He's cocky as hell and he burns bridges, but when you are on the same team as him most people love him.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

Darth Bryant said:


> With a championship now secure, and a long summer of boredom ahead... The bumping of threads continue, mainly in defense of Mitch and Odom. And since all of us who had doubts about Mitch and Odom are simply fickle fans, I thought I'd bump one of my old favorites.
> 
> 
> And let me just say, good work Kobe and thank you on behalf of Jamel Irief, and other such Shaq fans who blamed you for basically everything possible after the dynasty break up. Thanks for your hard work in the off season, playing through pain in the regular season.
> ...


funny because he's pointed the holier than thou finger at me plenty times, for being... fickle. i guess it wouldn't be as annoying if 1) he didn't put words in my mouth, and bash me for it and 2) he were so hypocritical. anyways, it's funny how shaq demanded 30 million per year and just ate ice cream instead of working, and it's kobe/jerry's fault.

anyways, i admit it.. i wanted to trade LO a couple years back (before we got gasol) because i thought the only chance we could get a significant player would involve LO (and he was, and still is, not consistent enough... though he's improved). but if memphis gave us a free and we could keep LO, why not?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

afobisme said:


> funny because he's pointed the holier than thou finger at me plenty times, for being... fickle. i guess it wouldn't be as annoying if 1) he didn't put words in my mouth, and bash me for it and 2) he were so hypocritical. anyways, it's funny how shaq demanded 30 million per year and just ate ice cream instead of working, and it's kobe/jerry's fault.
> 
> anyways, i admit it.. i wanted to trade LO a couple years back (before we got gasol) because i thought the only chance we could get a significant player would involve LO (and he was, and still is, not consistent enough... though he's improved). but if memphis gave us a free and we could keep LO, why not?


I still don't get what part you don't understand where you would call me a hypocrite.

I said I gave Shaq a pass because he led us to rings. Kobe had yet to do so and when he did I said I would give him a pass to. If Lamar decides Kobe is too bossy and mean to his lesser teammates and strongly alludes to Buss his chances of resigning would be increased without Kobe I would trash Lamar too. 

Shaq eating ice cream is still a championship player. Just as Kobe the narcissist is still a championship player. Both bad qualities hurt your chances, but the good outweigh the bad.

Not sure you wanted to respond since you didn't address your post to me, but whatever.


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